# Comics  > Image Comics >  Black Monday Murders

## son of booyah

Because, this should already exist.

Is it just me or was anyone else happy that *spoilers:*
there more than just Western families at the funeral? I'm glad this has the potential to be more global.
*end of spoilers*

Also have we met Wynn in the comics? That backstory was craaazy.

I'm looking forward to the next arc. A lot.

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## ed2962

> Because, this should already exist.
> 
> Is it just me or was anyone else happy that *spoilers:*
> there more than just Western families at the funeral? I'm glad this has the potential to be more global.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Also have we met Wynn in the comics? That backstory was craaazy.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the next arc. A lot.


Yes. I was.

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## Joker

> Also have we met Wynn in the comics?


Not unless shown but unnamed. Wynn has gone missing in the present.

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## son of booyah

> Not unless shown but unnamed. Wynn has gone missing in the present.


Ah, for sure. Also does anyone know if the trade will include all the prose stuff in the singles? I might be satisfied with the floppies on this one, honestly.

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## Yohei72

Man, this is a stunning book. So nice to see something this dense and packed with mysteries in a field that too often bends over backwards to try to make everything crystal clear. (Of course, the downside is that I have to re-read the previous issues every month in order to follow the new one… but that's a pleasure in this case.)

Can someone riddle me this?… A friend glanced through one issue and said he thinks Coker traces over photographs of actors for a lot of the pencil work. I looked at it and thought he was probably right and was actually a little embarrassed I hadn't seen it before. Is that crazy talk?

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## Joker

I'm sure Tomm shoots and uses a lot of photo reference but that doesn't equate to tracing. I hate that assumption. Like, no one can just be good at drawing. 




> Also does anyone know if the trade will include all the prose stuff in the singles?


Why would they remove it? It's part of the narrative. It's not like a totally separate prose piece in the back of the issue.

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## Yohei72

> I'm sure Tomm shoots and uses a lot of photo reference but that doesn't equate to tracing.


Fair enough. Having little skill or knowledge in the field myself, I wanted to get others' opinions.

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## Joker

I'm not there with him and I've never heard him talk about his process, but that's my educated guess.

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## numberthirty

> Man, this is a stunning book. So nice to see something this dense and packed with mysteries in a field that too often bends over backwards to try to make everything crystal clear. (Of course, the downside is that I have to re-read the previous issues every month in order to follow the new one… but that's a pleasure in this case.)
> 
> *Can someone riddle me this?… A friend glanced through one issue and said he thinks Coker traces over photographs of actors for a lot of the pencil work. I looked at it and thought he was probably right and was actually a little embarrassed I hadn't seen it before. Is that crazy talk?*


If you looked through an issue of this comic and wanted to talk about tracing, that is indeed crazy talk.

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## JKtheMac

> If you looked through an issue of this comic and wanted to talk about tracing, that is indeed crazy talk.


It is a valid question, but it equally reflects upon the tastes of the questioner. I have always found this issue to be interesting. The way complete novices can dismiss established artists in their field as poor or untalented because they use photo reference.

For a more complete reflection on this kind of issue see my posts in the Deodato thread in the Marvel boards.

I don't think there is any doubt Coker uses photo reference, and he also does a thing some critics find anathema and reuses poses in multiple panels. None of this detracts from the point that he is a great exponent of this style, and much better than many of his contemporaries.

My challenge to this way of thinking is, if it is so easy let's see you try. Because anyone that can pull off this kind of work should spend less time critisisng and more time showing their portfolio around at trade shows.

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## Joker

It comes back to this idea some people have that you can't just simply be good at drawing. Which is fucking stupid.

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## son of booyah

Hey so... wth are those things on the cover of #7? Are we gonna get actual demons up in this piece?

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## numberthirty

> Hey so... wth are those things on the cover of #7? Are we gonna get actual demons up in this piece?


To me, it feels like they started right on the outskirts of that.

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## Abe

Well, just to add my two cents to the recent discussions here, the covers for the next issues are all really great.

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## rui no onna

Gonna repost my question from another forum:

Out of curiosity, anyone else here read two copies at a time? Whenever I read Black Monday Murders, I always seem to have one copy for reading and another copy open as reference material.  :Big Grin: 

The Bleeding Cool review accurately describes the way I feel reading BMM.  :Big Grin: 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/01...vol-01-review/

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## Abe

> Gonna repost my question from another forum:
> 
> Out of curiosity, anyone else here read two copies at a time? Whenever I read Black Monday Murders, I always seem to have one copy for reading and another copy open as reference material.


Pretty much something like that... I actually bought also the TPB - because it's a beautiful book really not expensive for all the material it contains, but also because it will be more convenient to use as a companion for the reading of the next issues! lol...




> The Bleeding Cool review accurately describes the way I feel reading BMM. 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/01...vol-01-review/


Nice review. Thanks for the link, *rui no onna*. An accurate ( :Confused: ) description of my own experience too!

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## rui no onna

> Pretty much something like that... I actually bought also the TPB - because it's a beautiful books really not expensive for all the material it contains, but also because it will be more convenient to use as a companion for the reading of the next issues! lol...


Lol, I buy the single issues in both digital and print. I read the print and use digital as reference. Bonus, with digital I have access to all previously released issues, too.  :Big Grin:  

The TPB, I preordered from DCBS for $9.99 (50% off). Can't wait to have this as Omnibus/Deluxe HC.  :Smile:

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## Abe

I don't think that I will buy it a third time!  :Wink: 

I can't read digital books btw. About a Deluxe/Omnibus edition I'm curious about the choices for the paper  : I really like the one used in both the TPB and the singles. It's really well chosen by the creation team : great for the art but also for the text pages - kind of nice newspaper or a book you're studying in a library. At least that the kind of feeling I get when I read it. (my English is too poor to describe it better...)

Anyway it's really satisfying to sit to read a comic book without finishing it in 5 minutes.

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## rui no onna

> I don't think that I will buy it a third time! 
> 
> I can't read digital books btw. About a Deluxe/Omnibus edition I'm curious about the choices for the paper  : I really like the one used in both the TPB and the singles. It's really well chosen by the creation team : great for the art but also for the text pages - kind of nice newspaper or a book you're studying in a library. At least that the kind of feeling I get when I read it. (my English is too poor to describe it better...)
> 
> Anyway it's really satisfying to sit to read a comic book without finishing it in 5 minutes.


I have the Fatale and The Fade Out Deluxe HCs (Brubaker/Phillips/Breitweiser) and they both use nice, thick, semi-matte paper.

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## son of booyah

> Well, just to add my two cents to the recent discussions here, the covers for the next issues are all really great.


I especially like that one. Also I fully second the 'it being nice to not finish a comic in five minutes' comment, that's one thing that really stokes me out about this series.

Also, to comment on the Bleeding Cool review referenced above, I gave this to a friend - actually as a joke, like "check this maze out" just to laugh at the person getting lost - and she totally loved it. I actually think it's a comic that transcends the medium and is just excellent entertainment. I will probably be alone in this, but this is my favorite thing on the stands rn and I think it's a big step forward for the industry.

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## rui no onna

> I especially like that one. Also I fully second the 'it being nice to not finish a comic in five minutes' comment, that's one thing that really stokes me out about this series.
> 
> Also, to comment on the Bleeding Cool review referenced above, I gave this to a friend - actually as a joke, like "check this maze out" just to laugh at the person getting lost - and she totally loved it. I actually think it's a comic that transcends the medium and is just excellent entertainment. I will probably be alone in this, but this is my favorite thing on the stands rn and I think it's a big step forward for the industry.


My absolute favorite ongoing American comic right now is Monstress but this is a very a close second. If I had to trim down my pull list to just 5 titles, the list would probably go like:

MonstressThe Black Monday MurdersI Hate FairylandSuper SonsKill Or Be Killed

I've always been a manga person due to the depth and breadth of genres offered and it's been a nice surprise to find non-superhero, quality literature in American comics. My prior perception of American comics was they were either superhero, media tie-ins or Sunday funnies.

East of West is another great read. I started reading that via trades and my OCD has me continuing that way.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Jonathan Hickman is very good at world building.  :Smile:

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## seismic-2

I had been buying each issue as it came out on Comixology, and It's been driving me crazy having to keep the .pdf's of the previous issues open while reading the current one, to figure out what is happening.  I've had to dig out the same diagrams and timelines so often that it's a huge effort to keep up, and this will obviously become a problem that will escalate with every new issue.  I'm going to give up on the .pdf's and buy the trade, because it's the only practical solution.  (I can think of very few other comics that are worth putting this much effort into reading!)

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## rui no onna

> I had been buying each issue as it came out on Comixology, and It's been driving me crazy having to keep the .pdf's of the previous issues open while reading the current one, to figure out what is happening.  I've had to dig out the same diagrams and timelines so often that it's a huge effort to keep up, and this will obviously become a problem that will escalate with every new issue.  I'm going to give up on the .pdf's and buy the trade, because it's the only practical solution.  (I can think of very few other comics that are worth putting this much effort into reading!)


Tablet + print (TPB or single issue) works great. Or two tablets. I used to steal my brother's iPad when studying for exams so I can have the same textbook open at different pages. Having an extra tablet is really useful so when I upgraded, I just kept my old one. Hmm, does comiXology work with iOS split view? Because if it does, then iPad Pro 12.9 with PDF viewer on one side and comiXology on the other would work, too.  :Smile: 

Granted, I'm just about ready to create an Excel file for cross referencing and we're only 4 issues in. I've forgotten the symbols for Fire, Air, Water and Earth so gonna need to brush up on those before #5 comes out.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## JKtheMac

> Gonna repost my question from another forum:
> 
> Out of curiosity, anyone else here read two copies at a time? Whenever I read Black Monday Murders, I always seem to have one copy for reading and another copy open as reference material. 
> 
> The Bleeding Cool review accurately describes the way I feel reading BMM. 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/01...vol-01-review/


No but this is the first comic book I have read that makes me feel stupid, so maybe I should try it. Fancy explaining any insights you have gleaned by reading it like this. I just figured I would read it one at a time and then maybe go back and read the whole run from the beginning at some point and see if that helps.

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## rui no onna

> No but this is the first comic book I have read that makes me feel stupid, so maybe I should try it. Fancy explaining any insights you have gleaned by reading it like this. I just figured I would read it one at a time and then maybe go back and read the whole run from the beginning at some point and see if that helps.


Insights? What insights?

I do it to keep track of which character is which, what family they belong to as well as their family history. Also to see what the familiar looking symbols that all look alike mean. For the first issue, I kept going back and forth to see if the all white female figure was a statue or not.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

As someone who plays with retirement calculators (FIRECalc, cFIREsim), this book really tickles the imagination.  :Big Grin:

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## JKtheMac

> Insights? What insights?
> 
> I do it to keep track of which character is which, what family they belong to as well as their family history. Also to see what the familiar looking symbols that all look alike mean. For the first issue, I kept going back and forth to see if the all white female figure was a statue or not. 
> 
> As someone who plays with retirement calculators (FIRECalc, cFIREsim), this book really tickles the imagination.


I was thinking you were going to crack the story wide open and explain the centuries long chronology in the next breath. Oh well. Guess I'll just go back to reading it without understanding everything.  :Wink:

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## son of booyah

...and we're back! Issue 5 was a solid start to a new arc imo. We got some world explanation, a fairly important character was fleshed out, and I like where we're headed, seems like we're going to find out about a big missing piece in the story so far. Like all BMM issues it's part of a larger story, but I dug it for what it was

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## Joker

Great issue! So glad this is back. While it was a shorter issue than the previous four, it still felt more substantial than your average single issue. I love this book!

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## rui no onna

> Great issue! So glad this is back. While it was a shorter issue than the previous four, it still felt more substantial than your average single issue. I love this book!


In fairness, this was $3.99 instead of $4.99.  :Smile: 

By the way, anyone else Google to see if that article from Miami Herald was fake or not?  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Joker

That wasn't a criticism, just a fact. 1st arc ran 56 pages, this arc is running 40 pages. Price adjusted, obviously. 

Hickman's talked about this before. Issues fluctuating in length/price depending on what that chapter needs, instead of filling a pre determined page count. This isn't exactly, that, but I like that idea.

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## Abe

Great issue! I'm so glad too that it came back so soon. The writing and the art are still both on top, and we also had the chance to enjoy a wider scale of colors, with all the pages set in Latin America.

Just curious, did anyone of you also tried The Dying and The Dead? The three first issues were great and very promising and the book seems to be on good way to be published again and completed one day with 10 issues announced.

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## rui no onna

> That wasn't a criticism, just a fact. 1st arc ran 56 pages, this arc is running 40 pages. Price adjusted, obviously. 
> 
> Hickman's talked about this before. Issues fluctuating in length/price depending on what that chapter needs, instead of filling a pre determined page count. This isn't exactly, that, but I like that idea.


Just joshing you. I love the extra-sized issues myself.  :Wink: 

Got to say, love everything about this book. Even the cover and paper stock used are super nice compared to some other floppies I've been getting.  :Smile:

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## son of booyah

> By the way, anyone else Google to see if that article from Miami Herald was fake or not?


No, but the stuff about Potosi is sadly accurate. The actual name of the priest he quotes (I think the quote is fake, and that this guy is the basis) is Bartoleme de Las Casas. He wrote a book, not long after Columbus landed, about the terrible things going on in the Americas. That mine also truly did change the course of history, and allowed Spain and Europe to dominate much of the latter half of the second millenium.

I had actually hated on Hickman before for naming the Chinese city in East of West New Shanghai, because historically Shanghai was a foreign-established port and the Chinese wouldn't name their West Coast America city after a city established by Europeans (they'd probably name it New Beijing or New Xi'an instead, or make a new name). But here I have to deeply respect the history that he's weaving into the mythos. Very cool.

Also, many coups happened in Latin America in the 1970s and 1980s, and there was CIA involvement in several of those. That history is sadly plausible as well. Bravo Hickman.

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## son of booyah

Also what comics would people recommend in a similar vein to BMM? I know about Fatale, and Hellblazer has similar runs (I'm reading Ennis's right now), but other suggestions are welcome.

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## numberthirty

> Also what comics would people recommend in a similar vein to BMM? I know about Fatale, and Hellblazer has similar runs (I'm reading Ennis's right now), but other suggestions are welcome.


"Vein" as far as the supernatural aspect or the conspiracy aspect?

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## son of booyah

> "Vein" as far as the supernatural aspect or the conspiracy aspect?


Supernatural-tinged noir, more or less.

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## broci

Just bought a copy. Can't wait to start reading. It looks amazing.
Also I'm a sucker for amazing book cover designs.

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## JKtheMac

> I had actually hated on Hickman before for naming the Chinese city in East of West New Shanghai, because historically Shanghai was a foreign-established port and the Chinese wouldn't name their West Coast America city after a city established by Europeans (they'd probably name it New Beijing or New Xi'an instead, or make a new name).


But isn't there a certain irony in the name. I doubt the significance of the name escaped Hickman. The very name is synonymous with colonialism.

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## JKtheMac

Is it just me or is this book starting to make more sense all of a sudden? 

Also I am beginning to wonder if the seemingly meaningless cypher might be cracked by rotating the symbols based upon the month they are spoken, using a numerology wheel and a 24 letter alphabet (or perhaps 28 if it is a lunar cycle). Needs more study.

P.S. Perhaps Hickman is a Neal Stephenson fan (as all right thinking people should be). This story seems to be covering similar ground to Cryptonomicon and The Baroque Cycle. Paradigm shifts in economics, encrypted secrets, the value of precious metals and land based money vs abstraction.

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## lwhitehead

Hi I posted my thoughts on this comic and setting in another Posting on this forum before I knew there was already an forum for Black Monday Murders, First I always thought Wall Street was Faustian. 

So the Setting is this all forms of Modern Wealth come from some type of Blood Magic, brings new meaning to the term about skycrapers how each floor is made on backs of Men.

LW

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## son of booyah

Sorry, I'm just posting because I thought y'all would like my new avatar.

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## lwhitehead

Back too the Comic setting, The First issue layout the setting the 1% verus the rest with the bit about One of Blood mages giving a lecture about creating a personal fortune.


LW

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## lwhitehead

To understand this comic One has to to understand 19th Century Gilded Age America, 



LW

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## Abe

> Sorry, I'm just posting because I thought y'all would like my new avatar.


Do not be sorry! I _love_ it, son of booyah!

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## Abe

> Is it just me or is this book starting to make more sense all of a sudden? 
> 
> Also I am beginning to wonder if the seemingly meaningless cypher might be cracked by rotating the symbols based upon the month they are spoken, using a numerology wheel and a 24 letter alphabet (or perhaps 28 if it is a lunar cycle). Needs more study.
> 
> P.S. Perhaps Hickman is a Neal Stephenson fan (as all right thinking people should be). This story seems to be covering similar ground to Cryptonomicon and The Baroque Cycle. Paradigm shifts in economics, encrypted secrets, the value of precious metals and land based money vs abstraction.


A bit more sense probably.

About the rest of your post, feel free to share new discoveries. And thanks for the recommendations : Neal Stephenson? Summer is coming and I need books to read : I put it on the top of the list!

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## son of booyah

That was a really short issue. First time I've felt let down by this series. Story was fine and it looks like we'll get a cool fight next issue, but what was that, three scenes?

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## rui no onna

I enjoyed it, but yeah, it was pretty short. The oversized $4.99 issues were so much nicer.

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## martianarts

Tyler Gaddis- An Hommage to William Gaddis?

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## Joker

This whole arc is shorter issues than the 1st. I didn't have a problem with the length of this issue. Same as the last issue.

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## _Feely_

Little late to the party. Just got the first issue the other day.

I love this book so much already.

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## son of booyah

> Little late to the party. Just got the first issue the other day.
> 
> I love this book so much already.


It's my favorite book on the stands.

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## seismic-2

OK, I admit I'm not quick to pick up on these things, but I'm in the dark about what's happening here.  At the shooting range, Ria Rothschild tells Beatrix Bischoff that "The scales between myself and Viktor are unbalanced [well, duh!]  - _you know what that means_."  This sounds as if there is a challenge (in the arena of the Lesser Scales) between Viktor and the Rothschilds, but Beatrix gets her to agree to a truce, for the sake of the whole school.  The carnage at the end, however, seems to show that both Viktor and Ria are targets of a bigger challenge - are the scales unbalanced between Caina-Kankrin (or even the whole Western School) and someone else, such as one of the groups attending Daniel's funeral?  Was Ria referring to that in her eulogy after the cardinal's remarks?  Or is this slaughter a result of the awakening of Mammon, like the original Black Monday?  Or are we supposed to be unsure at this point?

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## rui no onna

> OK, I admit I'm not quick to pick up on these things, but I'm in the dark about what's happening here.  At the shooting range, Ria Rothschild tells Beatrix Bischoff that "The scales between myself and Viktor are unbalanced [well, duh!]  - _you know what that means_."  This sounds as if there is a challenge (in the arena of the Lesser Scales) between Viktor and the Rothschilds, but Beatrix gets her to agree to a truce, for the sake of the whole school.  The carnage at the end, however, seems to show that both Viktor and Ria are targets of a bigger challenge - are the scales unbalanced between Caina-Kankrin (or even the whole Western School) and someone else, such as one of the groups attending Daniel's funeral?  Was Ria referring to that in her eulogy after the cardinal's remarks?  Or is this slaughter a result of the awakening of Mammon, like the original Black Monday?  Or are we supposed to be unsure at this point?


I thought that was just Ria just paying lip service to Beatrix while going ahead with her plans for revenge. The one doing the killing looked like Ria's familiar.

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## son of booyah

> I thought that was just Ria just paying lip service to Beatrix while going ahead with her plans for revenge. The one doing the killing looked like Ria's familiar.


My read on the situation as well.

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## seismic-2

But Ria's "imbalance" was just between her and Viktor (who is still tied up), wasn't it?  Or was she referring to a need to achieve a "balance" with all the members of Caina-Kankrin (many of whom are dead on the heap)?  And isn't Ria herself one of the casualities?  If Abby is killing everyone, that seems more nearly like an act of Mammon.  (I assume the familiars take their orders from him.)

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## rui no onna

> But Ria's "imbalance" was just between her and Viktor (who is still tied up), wasn't it?  Or was she referring to a need to achieve a "balance" with all the members of Caina-Kankrin (many of whom are dead on the heap)?  And isn't Ria herself one of the casualities?  If Abby is killing everyone, that seems more nearly like an act of Mammon.  (I assume the familiars take their orders from him.)


Alexi definitely appears to be one of the casualties. I think the lady below the one with glasses is Beatrix and perhaps glasses girl was a random casualty? Hair color seemed too light on both ladies and Ria has a thinner face although with the angles, it's difficult to tell for sure.

They exiled Ria when she was a teenager. I expect she's seeking revenge on all of them (perhaps with her twin being exempt).

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## OceanMachine

Whew. I've been following this series since the beginning of this year's arc when I picked up all of the issues. I'm pretty inexperienced with comics in general -- this is the first I've followed in ages. I really appreciate some of the discussion that's taken place in this thread so far. BMM gives you so much to talk about.

On the ending of issue 6, I just posted on reddit about how floored I was to see what looks like Alexi, Beatrix, (possibly Marco upside down) and maybe others in the body heap that Abby uses to create her blood scales. If that's just a few random Caina-Kankrin staff or something, then no big deal, but otherwise...damn! 

As to what's actually going on in that scene, it tracks pretty closely with the explanation that follows it. The greater scales seem to concern large-scale power shifts in the market (eg. crashes), while the lesser scales concern, well: "singular transactions between practicing members of various schools, [and] is the physical arena in which practitioners engage in both hostile and mortal takeovers." So it seems very likely that what's going on is that Viktor is being forced into a challenge. The fact that Abby is the one that seems to be making the challenge would at first suggest the "familiar sacrifice" as described shortly thereafter -- that Grigoria is challenging Viktor to correct the imbalance between them, but that she is sending Abby as a proxy. 

BUT, if Grigoria really is one of the people on that body heap (and it looks like she could be), then another possibility emerges as well. At the end of the previous issue, Grigoria sends Thomas Dane to find the missing Wynn Ackerman. I don't think we know under what circumstances Wynn has gone missing, and we don't see him in issue 6. But if he has been found, then this could be all part of some plan on Girgoria's part to affect a massive power transfer of the board. Now, if she's actually one of the bodies we see heaped up there, this could either indicate some sort of treachery on Wynn's part, or that she's just crazy enough to enact a plan in which she sacrifices herself. But that doesn't seem likely, since she looks flabbergasted when she briefly comes to and sees what's going on. 

This also reminds me of an interesting piece earlier in the series, which may be relevant here. In issue #2, we are shown a letter written to Milton Rothschild by his father, in which he is given 3 different options for consolidating his power and prolonging his life unnaturally: Consolidate the school (which seems to be maybe what's happening in issue #6), petition for a familiar (which Milton does do, and which works for him, for a time), and a third option, which is blacked out. It's worth pointing out that the difficulties Andrew suggests in the consolidation option -- that it has to follow protocol, and therefore the other board members would realize what one is doing -- seem to be overcome in a situation like the one we're at right now. Everyone seems to have been killed. 

AND, let's jump back two pages. At the board meeting in which Grigoria is voted back into the ascendant seat, there are also who entries in the minutes which are almost entirely blacked out. Someone -- I'm going to suggest Grigoria -- asks for "full access to all of" something, and is rejected, but successfully gains "arbitration of access to all" of that thing. What if she petitioned for access to her grandfather's notes, files, or whatever, and came across that letter. The events taking place as of issue 6 certainly seem to reflect the train of thought that her great grandfather was laying out in his letter. Maybe she got the idea from him? This one's a bit of a stretch, but I'm desperate to know what those access entries are referring to.

Anyway, that's it for now. As a final note, my post on reddit also mentioned the decreased length of this arc's issues. While I'm happy to get anything, and am LOVING this experience, I would also be excited if the final arc next year returns to the length of the first arc. I want as much of this story as I can get  :Wink: 

Thoughts on any of this?

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## rui no onna

Well we did see Abigail eating Milton Rothschild. Familiars appear to be tricky creatures that can turn on their summoners. From what I understand, regular human sacrifices are required in order to acquire and retain a familiar and the closer the blood of the human sacrifice is to the direct line, the better.

I'm curious about Ria's bloodline. Her mom was a Rothschild born in 1846 and is older than her grandfather.

Also just noticed the Vol 1 TPB cover. Hickman | Coker | Garland | Wooton | Abaddon, lol.  :Big Grin:

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## OceanMachine

WOW. Totally did not even notice the birthdate craziness for Ria's mom. Her father and maybe her grandfather seem to have been under the impression that she was just a penniless nobody. But there are a few indications toward vampirism on Ria's part, which could be hereditary -- most recently issue 6 when she tells Beatrix that bullets won't kill her because they aren't silver.

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## rui no onna

> WOW. Totally did not even notice the birthdate craziness for Ria's mom. Her father and maybe her grandfather seem to have been under the impression that she was just a penniless nobody. But there are a few indications toward vampirism on Ria's part, which could be hereditary -- most recently issue 6 when she tells Beatrix that bullets won't kill her because they aren't silver.


Since the silver bullet thing appears to be common knowledge, I just took it to be one of the benefits of having a familiar - extends her life/youth and increases her endurance. Iirc, if Ria was in the Stone Chair, it's the familiar who dies instead of her so the familiar acts as a shield of some sort.

As for her mom, maybe not a penniless nobody but a Rothschild fallen from grace? Milton is old enough to have known of her so that may explain his disdain. Edit: Re-read volume 1, Milton had no idea where Ria's mom came from. Seems like the Rothschild last name was just her married name. I think Abigail called her a whore but I reckon Abigail also knew more than she's telling.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## OceanMachine

A keen-eyed redditor just pointed out that Abby's bodies also look a lot like the eager students that Viktor is teaching in issue #1. This is plausible as well, and if that's who they are, then this is just a lesser scales challenge between Ria and Viktor, looks like.

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## rui no onna

> A keen-eyed redditor just pointed out that Abby's bodies also look a lot like the eager students that Viktor is teaching in issue #1. This is plausible as well, and if that's who they are, then this is just a lesser scales challenge between Ria and Viktor, looks like.


One of them definitely looks like Alexi, though (based on the clothes + facial hair).

Mind, given Daniel Rothschild is dead by Viktor's hands and Ria has probably been out for revenge since she was exiled, I can't imagine this would be a lesser scales challenge.

----------


## Joker

> final arc next year


Eh? I have heard nothing stating the length of the book. Where'd you get that?

----------


## rui no onna

> Eh? I have heard nothing stating the length of the book. Where'd you get that?


Seems like it will depend on sales levels. Thus far, it doesn't read like it'll be ending by issue #12.

http://www.cbr.com/excl-hickman-coke...y-magic-money/



> *You’re famous for your big outlines and grand visions for comic stories. How far do you have “The Black Monday Murders” mapped out?*
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is these books are bigger than normal books, so our first trade, which is going to be the first four issues will be, at least, 240 pages. So if I say we’re going to issue #20, and we keep playing the way that we’re playing now, that would be around 40 issues of normal comics.  Right now, we have a plan for 12 issues, which would extrapolate out to be like 2 years worth of comics. Over 500 pages.  We’re also super-pragmatic, though, and we want to make sure the book works and is received well. So the plan is to put the first issue out and see what happens. We’ll get our numbers here in a couple weeks, and if we’re strong, then we’re just going to go and see what happens. If we’re not, we can put a bow on the book at the planned 12 issues. Then we’ll move on the something else.


Per The Beat

*THE BLACK MONDAY MURDERS*
08/2016: Black Monday Murders #1  -- 26,696 
09/2016: Black Monday Murders #2  -- 19,749 (- 26.0%) 
10/2016: Black Monday Murders #3  -- 18,371 (-  7.0%) 
11/2016: Black Monday Murders #4  -- 17,718 (-  3.6%) 
12/2016: --
01/2017: --
02/2017: --
03/2017: -- 
04/2017: Black Monday Murders #5  -- 15,655 (- 11.6%) 
05/2017: -- 
06/2017: Black Monday Murders #6  -- 14,458 (-  7.6%)

Cumulative Vol 1 TPB sales via Comichron: 8,256 (initial: 4,460)

----------


## Joker

Ah, I completely missed that 12 issue comment. Seems the numbers are fine, but I wonder if the sales had anything to do with shorter issues this arc. Or perhaps the price was prohibitive so, a trade followed by a more affordable second arc. Who knows. 

I am surprised it's not selling better, though.

----------


## rui no onna

> Ah, I completely missed that 12 issue comment. Seems the numbers are fine, but I wonder if the sales had anything to do with shorter issues this arc. Or perhaps the price was prohibitive so, a trade followed by a more affordable second arc. Who knows. 
> 
> I am surprised it's not selling better, though.


The 4 issues were $19.96. Volume 1 TPB was $19.99. Granted, you can get the trades discounted via Amazon, etc.

For creator-owned, 10K is pretty good. I believe Kieron Gillen mentioned if your Image book is selling 12K copies, you're probably making more than what the Big Two are paying. Besides, this is definitely a niche title. The hiatus is a quite likely cause for drop off. Out of sight, out of mind and all that. That said, I think the recent delays are likely bound to hurt floppy sales, too.

Also, I think there are a lot of people who prefer to trade-wait Image titles more than the Big Two. Particularly so when the creators are known for being late.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## son of booyah

> A keen-eyed redditor just pointed out that Abby's bodies also look a lot like the eager students that Viktor is teaching in issue #1. This is plausible as well, and if that's who they are, then this is just a lesser scales challenge between Ria and Viktor, looks like.


Whoooooa everybody, I'm pretty sure this is the case. Especially as the character being killed is the same one Viktor gave the coin(s) to during his lecture. To me the 'Alexi' guy looks more like the lawyer in my avatar than Alexi himself. I don't think Abby would kill Beatrix etc. without a fight like the one that should be coming in issue 7, either, according to the back matter at the end of #6. I sincerely doubt those are anything but throwaway characters.

And Ria's mom was a 'muggle' if you will, she wasn't born in 18anything. I don't recall where exactly this birthdate stuff was, can someone direct me to it? Got all the issues handy.

Damn, BMM is 14k? That's above the kill level for a Marvel/DC book, right? I think... either way that's high for an indie, and has to be much more profitable for the creators because it IS an indie. I don't think it's ending anytime soon because of sales.

Final arc? Pray tell where you got this info? That would ruin my day.

And OceanMachine, cheers to the BMM avatar!

----------


## rui no onna

> And Ria's mom was a 'muggle' if you will, she wasn't born in 18anything. I don't recall where exactly this birthdate stuff was, can someone direct me to it? Got all the issues handy.


Rothschild family tree on issue 1. Maybe just a typo but we can't rule out the possibility that it was intentional.

----------


## son of booyah

> Rothschild family tree on issue 1. Maybe just a typo but we can't rule out the possibility that it was intentional.


Thanks rui!

----------


## OceanMachine

I think Ria's mom could have been abnormal in some way without the Rothschilds realizing it. Or it could have been a typo.

Thanks for clearing up the publication deets, rui. I would be thrilled if they ended up pushing this series further than 12 issues! This week's issue should be pretty badass.




> And OceanMachine, cheers to the BMM avatar!


Word!

----------


## rui no onna

> This week's issue should be pretty badass.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but:

Black Monday Murders #6: 05/17/17 delayed to 06/21/17
Black Monday Murders #7: 06/14/17 delayed to 08/30/17
Black Monday Murders #8: 07/19/17 delayed to 09/20/17

----------


## OceanMachine

Oh maaaaan..

Just so that I can keep up with any news like this, where do you find that info on delayed titles?

----------


## rui no onna

> Just so that I can keep up with any news like this, where do you find that info on delayed titles?


I normally keep track of my preorders/subscriptions via http://pulllist.comixology.com/

This way, I know what books I need to pick up every week.

BMM 7 and 8 show as TBD on comiXology for now so had to check the online Previews Catalog for those.
https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/APR170764
https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY170659

Volume 2 TPB
https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG170610

----------


## OceanMachine

> BMM 7 and 8 show as TBD on comiXology for now so had to check the online Previews Catalog for those.
> https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/APR170764
> https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY170659
> 
> Volume 2 TPB
> https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG170610


Awesome. Thanks!

----------


## OceanMachine

Anyone else excited for our next issue (hopefully) next week? The official Image website has it listed as next week, and we've not yet had a delay adjustment this close to the listed date. So I'm crossing my fingers that next week we'll get to find out what happened with the cliffhanger-ish events of last issue.

----------


## rui no onna

> Anyone else excited for our next issue (hopefully) next week? The official Image website has it listed as next week, and we've not yet had a delay adjustment this close to the listed date. So I'm crossing my fingers that next week we'll get to find out what happened with the cliffhanger-ish events of last issue.


Lol, I'm gonna have to re-read the previous issue. Thank goodness for digital. XD

----------


## Joker

Diamond have it listed for next week.

----------


## son of booyah

> Anyone else excited for our next issue (hopefully) next week?


Yes. Can't wait

----------


## Abe

Personally I am able to wait... Hickman, you know... But I'm fine with that. And I'm glad the new dose is coming.

----------


## son of booyah

So that was pretty insane - really opens up the world. I enjoyed the not knowing details aspect of things leading up to this point but at the same time I'm stoked on where this is headed.

----------


## Abe

It was really great... And insane as you say. Really rewarding too - even if I need to go back and read once more the previous issues : my memory holes got me a little bit lost sometimes.

The art was on top!

Can't wait for the next arch (that was the last issue of the second one, isn't it?) even if we will have too.

Meanwhile, if someone has some clues to decipher the code...  :Wink:

----------


## OceanMachine

We still have one more issue in this arc. Then 4 more next year. 

Yes, yesterday's issue was off the hook. _son of booyah_, I definitely agree that a certain element of tantalizing mystery is lost as we find out more about the way the whole system works. But I'm equally excited to see the story amping up in this way. I loved how the scenes with Gaddis, while they described the nature of the system, also cleared up a number of smaller questions about little things that have happened so far in the story (eg. using the source, petitioning for a familiar). Interestingly, one of my biggest hopes was that we would get a bit more exposition from Beatrix and Marco sometime soon, and I was glad that they got a scene in this issue.

I just can't get enough of this story, seriously.

----------


## OceanMachine

Also, I was interested in Mammon's comment along the lines that one of the schools is lost/broken, and one is hidden from him. I don't have the exact quote because I'm at work. But I think one of these might be Kankrin? Not sure how that merger would be classified? And maybe another has to do with the info we've been getting the Merovingian school has been usurped? Or to do with what Wynn has been up to? Definitely some new questions here to mull over.

----------


## Abe

So one more!?! Excellent...

And the cover is really perfect, especially after this week's issue. (25th October according to the image site)

----------


## son of booyah

> Also, I was interested in Mammon's comment along the lines that one of the schools is lost/broken, and one is hidden from him. I don't have the exact quote because I'm at work. But I think one of these might be Kankrin?


I was wondering how Kankrin fit into that as well. And yeah, Marco needed a little explanation, glad we got some of it. I wanted to see the battle, but I think we'll get that next time, and no complaints about this issue.

Also where did you get the info about the 4 next year?

----------


## rui no onna

This issue was so good. Notable that Black Monday (October 19, 1987) wasn't listed among the dates.

PS I kinda do a lot of retirement modeling and safe withdrawal rates so I'm somewhat familiar with market crashes.

PPS Whoops, stuck pages.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## OceanMachine

> Also where did you get the info about the 4 next year?


Interview with Hickman here.

Specifically, this quote:

_"Right now, we have a plan for 12 issues, which would extrapolate out to be like 2 years worth of comics. Over 500 pages. â€¨We’re also super-pragmatic, though, and we want to make sure the book works and is received well. So the plan is to put the first issue out and see what happens. We’ll get our numbers here in a couple weeks, and if we’re strong, then we’re just going to go and see what happens. If we’re not, we can put a bow on the book at the planned 12 issues. Then we’ll move on the something else."_

Frankly, I would be thrilled if the series continued to do well, and they pursued it even longer.

----------


## rui no onna

> Interview with Hickman here.
> 
> Specifically, this quote:
> 
> _"Right now, we have a plan for 12 issues, which would extrapolate out to be like 2 years worth of comics. Over 500 pages. â¨Were also super-pragmatic, though, and we want to make sure the book works and is received well. So the plan is to put the first issue out and see what happens. Well get our numbers here in a couple weeks, and if were strong, then were just going to go and see what happens. If were not, we can put a bow on the book at the planned 12 issues. Then well move on the something else."_
> 
> Frankly, I would be thrilled if the series continued to do well, and they pursued it even longer.


I think it's probably doing well by indie standards.

Single Issues
#1: 26,696
#2: 19,749
#3: 18,371
#4: 17,718
#5: 15,655
#6: 14,458

Volume 1 TPB (via Diamond)
01/17: 4,460
02/17: 747
03/17: 836
04/17: 734
05/17: 794
06/17: 685
07/17: 447
08/17: 437
Total YTD: 9,140

----------


## OceanMachine

Given those numbers, I would imagine the plan is to continue for at least their initial plan of 12 issues. That is, unless some other factor causes it to drop (eg. other, more pressing commitments early next year).

----------


## Joker

Maaaaannnnnn... that was awesome.

----------


## JKtheMac

We certainly seem to be into a new chapter for this book now, and it is certain to start escalating from here. If it is structured as a medium length story we are into rising action and would expect a climax in four or so issues by my gut feeling, so 12 still looks likely given the density of material.

----------


## OceanMachine

Here's something else that I just came across: Gaddis realizes before he gets eaten that the one outlying crash (the one Mammon didn't cause) was in 1987. According to Wikipedia, IRL that particular crash is also the one that is primarily referred to by the nickname "Black Monday." It also remains, "the largest one-day percentage decline in the DJIA [Dow Jones]." So if we didn't already realize that this particular crash is key, well...it looks like the series is named after it.

----------


## Abe

Black Monday : 19th of October 1987 - 30 years today!  :Wink:

----------


## JKtheMac

I guess on one level the use of magic in this book could be seen as a critique of how algorithms have slowly but surely taken over the market. Indeed many think Black Monday was partly an accident caused by the automated 'portfolio insurance' algorithm which was designed to offset losses in large investment portfolios in a time of 'sell-off'. In other words the computer algorithms designed to protect the largest investors perpetuated and exacerbated the drop in price to cause the biggest one-day drop in history.

The algorithm was designed to sell futures as an offset, but smaller investors could see no reason to buy low price stock when the futures market was also depressed. For a short while it looked to everyone like a depression. The market had actually fully recovered within a year, and people could have made a lot of money buying stock, but nobody could perceive this possibility and for short and medium term investment selling now was better than selling twenty minutes later when the price had gone down, and potentially (according to the futures market) showed no sign of recovery.

If you then overlay a conspiracy theory onto this you could posit that this computer algorithm actually accelerated the use of computer algorithms in the market. Many computerised systems were put in place to stop this kind of sudden and relentless drop in price. Mainly pausing and then stopping the trade in stock. However stock can now be traded much faster now, and is very often done using algorithms. 

Numerology is a good analogy for algorithmic systems.

Add to this that 'games theory' which has some serious flaws in its methodology, dominates economic thinking and therefore the algorithms that are used in the market, and one could make a claim that algorithms are artificially controlling the market.

The idea that the 'market gods' can no longer see the actions of their followers also mirrors the way that the algorithms used by traders are naturally trade secrets. Algorithms represent an added layer of abstraction overlaying the already rarified world of the economic theories of the stock market. A world that does indeed tend to think of money and its value in the abstract rather than as a collective will of real people taking very real human risks.

----------


## Abe

That's very interesting JK. Thanks to share your thoughts!

----------


## JKtheMac

> That's very interesting JK. Thanks to share your thoughts!


You know me, I can't resist a theory.  :Smile:

----------


## OceanMachine

Yeah, thanks JK. I'm not too educated where high finance is concerned, so those were some interesting new points to ponder.

----------


## TotalSnorefest

Good stuff JK! I don't have any insights myself regarding algorithms in finance, since most stock-market terms sound like magic spells to me, but I feel like I've learned a bit from your post.  :Smile:

----------


## Abe

Time to bump up the thread I guess.

Great issue. Won't spoil anything but I can't wait for the next story arc!

----------


## OceanMachine

Woah. Pretty cool! Not what I was expecting to happen at all. And also really opens the door to potential further arcs in the future.

----------


## seismic-2

Ria really pulled out all the stops in settling accounts.  This had been mentioned in a previous issue as an option, but I didn't expect it to come to this.  Now, what should we make of the fact that the final scene in this issue takes place on "November 31"?

----------


## son of booyah

Here's to hoping that this book continues for a while, this issue sets up a lot of possibilities at least. Good stuff, the turn with Dumas was cool

----------


## JKtheMac

Sometimes you wait for something you once enjoyed and it resumes just as it was before. You note how much you missed it and you carry on as if it had never been away.

Sometimes you wait for something and when it returns it does so with a rush. It explodes in front of you, opens into a myriad of possibilities and you realise it was always more. You didn't just enjoy it, you loved it.

This issue was utterly amazing. Not because it really did anything original. This was very much a set-up issue. A transition. A step over the threshold into a domain only glimpsed from outside. Three things happened, a magical duel, a request for membership and the recalling of an old ally, really nothing much. But the art was stunning, the dialogue was properly observed like a ritual in story form, and the sudden introduction of the world map accepted us into the wider world that we had no real knowledge of previously.

Now we have context. Now we recognise the war between the two forces we have seen up until now was just a battle in a wider conflict. That this ritual interaction between two factions is but an example of the way these interactions work on multiple fronts concurrently. It was an ancient and complex interaction but it wasn't unique or special. 

What happens now? A way of thinking about money and power has just been defeated by another one. Does that defeated way disappear, wiped from the map? Does it become like 'The lost Schools of the Wastelands' and stop interacting? Does it somehow become subsumed into the victor's domain, with a puppet ruler? Does it slink away and brood, retaining its identity but no longer acting significantly on the world stage. 

I have no idea and that is why I loved this issue.

----------


## JKtheMac

Some economists look at Russia and see America in the early days. 

They see the way power and ownership of resources and infrastructure has been accrued into a few partly criminal, powerful groups. They look at how the poor were given stocks in the country but were economically forced to sell them cheap in order to live. This resulted in powerful groups, loosely tied together by mutual wealth and oligarchy. These 'optimistic' economists compare this to the gangs and mobs of a past US age. They remember how this black economy slowly legitimised itself.

They project a future where Russia slowly legitimises its money, because that way they can expand and take a place in the wider world. It is happening fast. Vast amounts of money are being invested out of Russia into the wider world. This can be seen as insidious and scary because of who is doing the investing.

But, economic behaviour goes both ways. By investing in property and business abroad, Russia is normalising its economy and being encouraged to act in ways that the western markets find acceptable and non-threatening to the wider economy. Overt criminality is not rewarded by Wall-Street. As far as the monied of the west are concerned it is mutually beneficial for Russia to be just the same, for past dubious practices or even criminality to be forgotten as long as the future is not disturbed.

Here, in this issue, the beast of privileged, all-consuming greed, gangster economics has been literally slain by the west. That is clearly not the whole story, Hickman is probably not suggesting that the way of Wall-Street is the best or most desirable way of looking at money, but I think he may be reflecting these same themes.

----------


## OceanMachine

If nothing else, it's encouraging to see Hickman take some narrative steps that indicate the series will very likely be continuing into another arc (maybe more).

My number on question right now though -- where is Alexi? He's the only Kankrin member remaining. This is trouble, since he hasn't really got any allies in Caina (that we know of), and it also means that he will be perpetually in the stone chair. Which is of course...very bad news.

----------


## numberthirty

> Here's something else that I just came across: *Gaddis realizes before he gets eaten that the one outlying crash (the one Mammon didn't cause) was in 1987.* According to Wikipedia, IRL that particular crash is also the one that is primarily referred to by the nickname "Black Monday." It also remains, "the largest one-day percentage decline in the DJIA [Dow Jones]." *So if we didn't already realize that this particular crash is key, well...it looks like the series is named after it.*


Also worth noting is that the name of the series being plural could be a subtle but sizable hint.

----------


## numberthirty

> If nothing else, it's encouraging to see Hickman take some narrative steps that indicate the series will very likely be continuing into another arc (maybe more).
> 
> My number on question right now though -- *where is Alexi?* He's the only Kankrin member remaining. This is trouble, since he hasn't really got any allies in Caina (that we know of), and it also means that he will be perpetually in the stone chair. Which is of course...very bad news.


That is indeed an interesting question.

----------


## seismic-2

I'm still puzzled (as, of course, we're supposed to be) by the "November 31" date assigned to the final scene, in Argentina.  Does this mean that this scene isn't really happening, and it's just a hallucination?  Or is it actually happening, but in some alternate reality connected to our own?  (There have certainly been lots of scenes in "unreal" places!)  Or is it meant to connect to the "challenge" scene between the Rothschilds and Kankrin, where we were told that time is warped within the arena of the challenge, so maybe this Argentina scene is actually happening during the challenge as a part of it?

----------


## numberthirty

> I'm still puzzled (as, of course, we're supposed to be) by the "November 31" date assigned to the final scene, in Argentina.  Does this mean that this scene isn't really happening, and it's just a hallucination?  Or is it actually happening, but in some alternate reality connected to our own?  (There have certainly been lots of scenes in "unreal" places!)  Or is it meant to connect to the "challenge" scene between the Rothschilds and Kankrin, where we were told that time is warped within the arena of the challenge, so maybe this Argentina scene is actually happening during the challenge as a part of it?


One reader's take...

- That scene is exactly as it happened, and completely on the level. It just seems like it took time past where the body of the issue closes to find him. Feels like an epilogue.

----------


## seismic-2

> One reader's take...
> 
> - That scene is exactly as it happened, and completely on the level.


If it's completely on the level, then it should take place on November 30 or December 1, not on the non-existent day presumably between them (November 31).  That's why the impossible date indicates that either this scene isn't real, or it is happening in some "warped time" generated during the Ria-Viktor showdown.

----------


## JKtheMac

> If it's completely on the level, then it should take place on November 30 or December 1, not on the non-existent day presumably between them (November 31).  That's why the impossible date indicates that either this scene isn't real, or it is happening in some "warped time" generated during the Ria-Viktor showdown.


Maybe he is hiding in a date abandoned by calendars. He is magically hiding in an obscure Romulus calander date for example.

----------


## seismic-2

> Maybe he is hiding in a date abandoned by calendars. He is magically hiding in an obscure Romulus calander date for example.


I like that idea, that somehow he's hiding out in time!  We still haven't learned what all went on when he disappeared, other than that the situation had erupted into chaos.

----------


## JKtheMac

> I like that idea, that somehow he's hiding out in time!  We still haven't learned what all went on when he disappeared, other than that the situation had erupted into chaos.


It also runs contrary to the whole cyclical nature of the series.

----------


## Joker

It also wouldn't be the first time a Hickman book had a typo.

----------


## numberthirty

> It also wouldn't be the first time a Hickman book had a typo.


This was my very first thought.




> If it's completely on the level, then it should take place on November 30 or December 1, not on the non-existent day presumably between them (November 31).  That's why the impossible date indicates that either this scene isn't real, or it is happening in some "warped time" generated during the Ria-Viktor showdown.


It certainly could be.

That said, it fit's right into what has been set up in "Our" second arc. He also seems to be talking about what has been in motion in "Our" second arc.

----------


## son of booyah

Y'all. Hickman, via twitter, says the following:

"Also, we're waiting to solicit the final arc until Tomm is a good ways into it."

My heart... it's gonna take a while to sweep up the pieces.

----------


## numberthirty

> Y'all. Hickman, via twitter, says the following:
> 
> "Also, we're waiting to solicit the final arc until Tomm is a good ways into it."
> 
> My heart... it's gonna take a while to sweep up the pieces.


Well, bummer.

That said, still kind of a bummer.

While it looked like news elsewhere was pointing to this possibility, it's still a little bit of a drag that a similarly-sized final arc looks like how this will play out.

----------


## numberthirty

> Ria really pulled out all the stops in settling accounts.  This had been mentioned in a previous issue as an option, but I didn't expect it to come to this.  Now, what should we make of the fact that the final scene in this issue takes place on *"November 31"*?


Potential development on this front...

https://twitter.com/JHickman/status/970762802490208257

----------


## Yohei72

> Potential development on this front...
> 
> https://twitter.com/JHickman/status/970762802490208257


Holy carp! "Each issue looks like it be 64 pages." Is that another typo?!

----------


## hunterpend

It looks like some of these tweets were later deleted? His Image creator page no longer lists BMM as a project... I gather the current status is *limbo*?

----------


## Joker

Did it ever list it? It's only got two books listed as 'creator of' and those are both currently coming out. His bio is wildly out of date, too. 

I wouldn't take too much stock in his creator page.

----------


## hunterpend

> Did it ever list it? It's only got two books listed as 'creator of' and those are both currently coming out. His bio is wildly out of date, too. 
> 
> I wouldn't take too much stock in his creator page.


I'm not sure about the creator page, but the Black Monday Murders page (on Image and Comixology) used to show preview images for future issues (through 12 IIRC) and those got memeory holed after issue 8 dropped.

----------


## Joker

How could they show preview images for issues that don't have covers and haven't been solicited yet? Literally nothing has ever existed past issue 8.

----------


## Abe

November 30th, guys, November 30th! 

Just a typo then.

The TPB looks really fine btw. Beautiful cover.

----------


## numberthirty

> *November 30th, guys, November 30th!* 
> 
> Just a typo then.
> 
> The TPB looks really fine btw. Beautiful cover.


Well, things just got a lot less interesting.

----------


## JKtheMac

> Well, things just got a lot less interesting.


Yep. That's just being a spoil sport. He should have embraced his error and let our weird speculations stand.

----------


## seismic-2

People who read only the individual issues won't know about any changes that were made in the collections.  Will a page in the back of the next issue explain that the Nov. 31 date was just a typo?  If not, people will be _very_ much confused!

----------


## OceanMachine

Hey all. I just picked up the trades and had a re-read of everything. In the spirit of keeping the home fires burning between arcs, here's where my thoughts are at the moment:

We haven't really seen what Beatrix and Marco are going to do, now that Ria has consolidated her power. They were plotting against her for most of Issue #7, even before she killed Viktor. They don't like that she and Daniel tried to manipulate things behind their backs. They don't like that her blood is common. They may not have cared for Viktor, but at least he was a kind of a power check, within the Caina-Kankrin group. Each of them kind of has unique motivations -- Beatrix is about solidifying Caina's corporate interests, while Marco is going all Fifth Business, wallflower-ish, couldn't-care-less-but-actually-fingers-on-the-strings. Will they team up?

Alexi is even more interesting. He's the only Kankrin member left, and he and Viktor were old friends. We've no reason to think he has any allies amongst the remaining board members. And he's likely nurturing vengeful feelings of some kind, or will be, if he hasn't figured out yet that Viktor is dead. But that gets to another question -- where is he? His complete absence in the past few issues is a little suspicious in itself. I'm very interested to see what happens with him.

Wynn: He's clearly got some pretty beefy powers, apparently even beyond what Viktor was capable of. At least based on what we've seen. Even without Mammon powers, he was a really gifted kid. But a piece of this might tie into whatever he has been up to after he went missing. If he was associating with other schools, like Ria did while exiled, then he might have picked up some new tricks that way. Apparently going on sabbatical is where it's at if you want to consolidate your power.

And then there's Dumas. Last we saw, he was telling Ria he wanted in on the whole deal. He's not from a rich and powerful family, so it's unlikely he'll just join Caina, but then what would the alternative be? Some sort of operative on Ria's behalf? Got me thinking about their motives. Ria is ruthless, but is she evil? She's obviously at the head of a family that is knee-deep in blood power, but her conversation with Thomas Dane about Daniel seems to suggest that she feels he was right in working against Caina's corporate power mission. In trying to do some good. Maybe you gotta do some damage to do some good? Maybe she sees the same virtue in Dumas? 

But do we have a lot of evidence that Dumas is really a good guy? All of his actions point towards a strong sense of justice and an innate thirst for knowledge. But these can be skewed towards dark ends. I guess I'm kind of excited at the potential in this series for the blurring of lines in terms of good/evil and right/wrong.

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## Ramsay Snow

I'm a little late to this party. I love the majority of Hickman's work (Especially East of West), but I didn't bother with The Black Monday Murders when it originally came out because, thematically, it didn't interest me. "A comic about the banking industry being mixed with the occult?"......Plus, I wasn't too crazy about his other somewhat recent comic, The Dying and the Dead (It was OK, but nothing great)......I decided to finally buy the first trade a few weeks ago, and this is one of the best comics I've ever read. It tops East of West as my favorite Hickman title. I finished the second trade in one day. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of people like me who, even being fans of Hickman's stuff, didn't bother with the title due to lack of interest. 





> I guess on one level the use of magic in this book could be seen as a critique of how algorithms have slowly but surely taken over the market. Indeed many think Black Monday was partly an accident caused by the automated 'portfolio insurance' algorithm which was designed to offset losses in large investment portfolios in a time of 'sell-off'. In other words the computer algorithms designed to protect the largest investors perpetuated and exacerbated the drop in price to cause the biggest one-day drop in history.
> 
> The algorithm was designed to sell futures as an offset, but smaller investors could see no reason to buy low price stock when the futures market was also depressed. For a short while it looked to everyone like a depression. The market had actually fully recovered within a year, and people could have made a lot of money buying stock, but nobody could perceive this possibility and for short and medium term investment selling now was better than selling twenty minutes later when the price had gone down, and potentially (according to the futures market) showed no sign of recovery.
> 
> If you then overlay a conspiracy theory onto this you could posit that this computer algorithm actually accelerated the use of computer algorithms in the market. Many computerised systems were put in place to stop this kind of sudden and relentless drop in price. Mainly pausing and then stopping the trade in stock. However stock can now be traded much faster now, and is very often done using algorithms. 
> 
> Numerology is a good analogy for algorithmic systems.
> 
> Add to this that 'games theory' which has some serious flaws in its methodology, dominates economic thinking and therefore the algorithms that are used in the market, and one could make a claim that algorithms are artificially controlling the market.
> ...



That was fascinating. Thank you for the post, it brought me a lot more insight into this book. 






> Y'all. Hickman, via twitter, says the following:
> 
> "Also, we're waiting to solicit the final arc until Tomm is a good ways into it."
> 
> My heart... it's gonna take a while to sweep up the pieces.



A true shame this brilliant comic won't go further than 12-issues, but that eventual 12-chapter hardcover collection is going to be sweet! 





> November 30th, guys, November 30th! 
> 
> Just a typo then.
> 
> The TPB looks really fine btw. Beautiful cover.


I was hoping Hickman was going to No-Prize himself through that typo.

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## awayne83

Just caught up with book 2. The timeline for the events has me confused, not sure if i misinterpreted something or not, but it's off pretty significantly imo

Bea confronts Ria at the shooting range on Nov 8 @ 1131 pm. (Seems a bit late for that ?)

Then we get her familiar setting up the stage via interns or students or whatever on Nov 9 @ 0142 am

Followed by the scene of Viktor's abduction Nov 8 1143 pm, with the eventual reveal that Viktor is there at said stage on Nov 9 @ 0143 am (everything seems kosher so far)

In the next chapter, Bea is discussing the Ria confrontation with Marco. But this is on Nov 8 @ 240 pm. This would've been b4 she even met with Ria in the first place.

One could assume a typo on the time, and the confrontation could have been 1131 am on Nov 8 instead of the pm, and now we're back on track.

But during said meeting between Marco and Breatrix, they realize the scales are unbalanced, which leads them to (a bank vault i think?) where the stage had previously been set with Eresko kidnapped and the interns/students seemingly removed at this point. Again this is on Nov 8 @ 252 pm. 

Viktor wasn't originally shown taken until that night, and the stage set up early on Nov 9.

The only way this series of events really makes sense is if there was a typo and the Bea/Marco scene occured the following day on the 9th. Then you could theoretically have the Bea/Ria confrontation late Nov 8th, the kidnapping of Eresko around the same time, the meeting of Marco/Bea the next afternoon, and subsequent discovery of the Eresko situation minutes later (although he'd have been in the vault for 12hrs or so at that point)

After typing all that out, I feel like this is the most likely scenario, and maybe obvious, but this book so far has paid such fine attention to detail. And that mistake on the date was repeated multiple times. Just curious if others felt the same about the timeline of events, or may this be a case of something left to be explained?

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## seismic-2

I've given up on trying to read the story too deeply, if the "November 31" date was in fact just a typo rather than some out-of-time reference.

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## awayne83

> I've given up on trying to read the story too deeply, if the "November 31" date was in fact just a typo rather than some out-of-time reference.


Appears to be, as it was corrected in the trade. 

And i don't know if "too deeply" constitutes wanting the timeline to make sense  :Confused:

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## your_name_here

Still no sign of more issues. What happened to Hickman has he turned to TV?

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## Joker

I think he said April? It’s coming back, I think the idea was to complete the issues before soliciting anything.

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## OceanMachine

> I think he said April? It’s coming back, I think the idea was to complete the issues before soliciting anything.


That was my understanding, although I'm not sure about the timeline. And it's been a while since he said that, so who knows where it's at.

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## numberthirty

I'd just put it completely out of my mind until it's either solicited or actually on the stands.

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## your_name_here

It’s in the April solicitations!!

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## numberthirty

> It’s in the April solicitations!!


Solicit text for April's issue #9...




> *“WHAT ABOUT WYNN” The last arc of THE BLACK MONDAY MURDERS begins with the origin story of the world’s greatest witch. Every issue of this last arc will be double-sized!*

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## OceanMachine

> Solicit text for April's issue #9...


The wait has dulled my hype a little, but I'm pretty sure a readthrough will get me back in the mood. Very excited for the double-issues, and just to see how this resolves. I feel like with Viktor out of the picture, some serious business is about to go down.

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## Yohei72

Issue #9 was originally set for April 24, according to the series' page at the Image site. But now that item is removed from the page, and I don't see BMM mentioned in any of the solicits through June at the Image site. But Syfy.com lists #10 in their list of Image solicits for June.

It's a conspiracy!

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## seismic-2

> It's a conspiracy!


I blame the black pope.

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## OceanMachine

Oh maaan. I hope this doesn't bode ill.

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## Joker

Didn't show up in the July Solicits either.

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## comicfiend

Diamond has cancelled preorders for #9 and #10 citing “Cancelled by publisher”. No further details ... usually I’ll see an appended “Will be resolicited” but none of that here ... I’ll speculate that the X gig Hickman has is consuming his current cycles.

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## numberthirty

While I feel kinda like Charlie Brown up in mid-air after the football got jerked out from under me, I'm still pretty stoked on the final arc.

----------


## Joker

Someone wished Tomm a speedy recovery on Instagram. Don’t know for wha, but perhaps that’s part of the delay. I know they want the issues done before they start coming out.

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## Yohei72

SON OF A BITCH! How goddamn hard is it for them to tell us what's going on?! Do they not WANT people to buy their comic? This is the kind of nonsense that makes it hard for even some fans to follow books.

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## numberthirty

> SON OF A BITCH! How goddamn hard is it for them to tell us what's going on?! Do they not WANT people to buy their comic? This is the kind of nonsense that makes it hard for even some fans to follow books.


Politely disagree.

They've certainly been more upfront that other creative teams have been in the past.

----------


## Joker

*cough* Southern Bastards *cough*

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## numberthirty

Came across this on Newarama. Looks like what someone a few posts above suspected is indeed the case. Good on Tomm for trying to be upfront with readers, and hopefully he will be as well as he wants to be very soon.

https://www.newsarama.com/44921-tomm...rs-hiatus.html




> *TOMM COKER's Health Concerns Leads to BLACK MONDAY MURDERS Hiatus*

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## OceanMachine

Thanks for sharing this!

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## numberthirty

> Thanks for sharing this!


Entirely too happy to do so.

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## Yohei72

Ok, I'm much calmer now. Apologies to anyone I startled out of a nap, or sprinkled with spittle.

This must be much more frustrating for Coker than it is for any of us. Hope he's well soon, for selfish and altruistic reasons. I suppose Image was between a rock and a hard place, not wanting to tell people about his health problems without his permission.

Thanks for the sharing the news.

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## Joker

It’s also not really their place to out a creators personal issues. Image did their only job in notifying that the book would be resolicited later. 

Anything beyond that is Coker’s to disclose or keep private.

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## Yohei72

> It’s also not really their place to out a creators personal issues. Image did their only job in notifying that the book would be resolicited later. 
> 
> Anything beyond that is Coker’s to disclose or keep private.


Yes, exactly.

----------

