# Comics  > Image Comics >  Did Copperhead get cancelled too!!!! >:(

## saul_on_the_road_to_damascus

Seriously folks this is why we can't have nice things.  Secret Identities, Dynamo5 and Now Copperhead.  (If it did get cancelled)  I f***k**g hate starting new series only to have them cancelled after such a short run.  And I hate when good books are neglected/ignored for mainstreme books from the big two.

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## Panfoot

https://twitter.com/JayFaerber/statu...38720537624576

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## saul_on_the_road_to_damascus

> https://twitter.com/JayFaerber/statu...38720537624576


Yeah I found that after I posted.

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

"not very close" to getting some issues complete.  wonder what the delay is.

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## Mjolnir

The art side of this book really seems to be taking a long time. The last issue came out in October. I know they wanted issues in the can so that it could come out monthly again, but after the April solicits, it'll be 6 months. Seriously, are they drawing an entire arc before soliciting again?

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## RolandGunner

> The art side of this book really seems to be taking a long time. The last issue came out in October. I know they wanted issues in the can so that it could come out monthly again, but after the April solicits, it'll be 6 months. Seriously, are they drawing an entire arc before soliciting again?


Its possible Image was on the fence about approving a third arc and waited until they saw the Volume 2 trade sales or something.

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## Jay Faerber

Copperhead hasn't been cancelled. And yes, we're completing the next arc before we solicit it. That's the only way to guarantee it comes out on time. Scott is currently drawing DARK & BLOODY for Vertigo, so he's juggling that with his COPPERHEAD work. No one's more disappointed than us about this delay. But we'd rather have an arc that can be read monthly than delays in between issues.

-- Jay

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## klynn

> Copperhead hasn't been cancelled. And yes, we're completing the next arc before we solicit it. That's the only way to guarantee it comes out on time. Scott is currently drawing DARK & BLOODY for Vertigo, so he's juggling that with his COPPERHEAD work. No one's more disappointed than us about this delay. But we'd rather have an arc that can be read monthly than delays in between issues.
> 
> -- Jay


Thanks Jay.  I appreciate you coming onto the forum to clarify the current status.  I'd rather wait months between arcs than months between issues of an arc myself.  And COPPERHEAD is definitely worth waiting for.  

But not too much longer, please?  :Wink:

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## Mjolnir

> Copperhead hasn't been cancelled. And yes, we're completing the next arc before we solicit it. That's the only way to guarantee it comes out on time. Scott is currently drawing DARK & BLOODY for Vertigo, so he's juggling that with his COPPERHEAD work. No one's more disappointed than us about this delay. But we'd rather have an arc that can be read monthly than delays in between issues.
> 
> -- Jay



Thank you too Jay for clearing up what is going on with the art. Is Scott always going to be doing Dark and Bloody at the same time as Copperhead or is it a temporary thing so he can come back to Copperhead full time? I really miss it right now.

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## matt levin

Patiently waiting!  Just another series I follow which is stretched out across my lifetime....heh heh heh.

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## Deathstroke

I'm a little behind on my reading so I didn't even realize the delay was going on. But I'm very glad that the series isn't canceled.

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## daningotham

Can't wait for Copperhead to come back.  I've turned one of my other friends on to it too.  I got him interested when I told him it has a Firefly/Star Wars feel to it.  It's really awesome.

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## Zartan's Brother

Glad this is just a delay. I loved the first two arcs, and I can't wait to keep reading.

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## Drunk Viking

I no longer think this is a delay.  A delay to me is a 2-3 month setback due to scheduling, etc.  This looks like a complete failure to prioritize workload.  And it irks me because just like Scott Snyder's "Wytches" and Frank Barbiere's "Five Ghosts", it'll be yet another book that I stuck with for a year after being told the story would continue, and not one peep.

Every time this happens I lose a little bit of faith in independent books.  At least Tim Seeley and Greg Rucka are still writing their series'.

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## wwise03

> I no longer think this is a delay.  A delay to me is a 2-3 month setback due to scheduling, etc.  This looks like a complete failure to prioritize workload.  And it irks me because just like Scott Snyder's "Wytches" and Frank Barbiere's "Five Ghosts", it'll be yet another book that I stuck with for a year after being told the story would continue, and not one peep.
> 
> Every time this happens I lose a little bit of faith in independent books.  At least Tim Seeley and Greg Rucka are still writing their series'.



I can't disagree with you.  Won't these delays/snipe cancellations cause you to think twice about jumping in feet first on the next Faeber, Snyder, and Barbiere books?  They have really killed the Image momentum for me.    

I really hope we get more Five Ghosts, but I am in no way counting on it and I won't believe Barbiere is still working on the series until I see previews for the next issue.

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## capuga

Just now on twitter:

Jay Faerber ‏@JayFaerber  46s47 seconds ago
Nothing to report. We're grinding away on the next arc, in between other projects.

patrick foster @patrickfoster
@JayFaerber Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere, but—any news on COPPERHEAD?

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## Deniz Camp

I understand your frustration, but before you rush to anger and bitterness consider the economics of making comics. Many of these books are not making their creators much; and even those that pay a decent wage do so over time, intermittently, or when factoring in IP exploitation. 

The guy who does Copperhead is currently working on Dark & Bloody; he's getting a page rate, and a strong royalty incentive, from a company that knows how to get collected editions into bookstores. But, more than anything, he's getting paid, up front, guaranteed. He can plan his life around that. 

That isn't possible with Copperhead. That isn't possible with A LOT of Image books. And people have to eat.

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## daningotham

> I understand your frustration, but before you rush to anger and bitterness consider the economics of making comics. Many of these books are not making their creators much; and even those that pay a decent wage do so over time, intermittently, or when factoring in IP exploitation. 
> 
> The guy who does Copperhead is currently working on Dark & Bloody; he's getting a page rate, and a strong royalty incentive, from a company that knows how to get collected editions into bookstores. But, more than anything, he's getting paid, up front, guaranteed. He can plan his life around that. 
> 
> That isn't possible with Copperhead. That isn't possible with A LOT of Image books. And people have to eat.


I totally get it, and am not angry.  But I don't think it will help their sales at all by taking months off in between issues.  The fan base is going to go away and find something else to read.  It's why I dropped a lot of independent titles as it seems to be a recurring theme a lot of the time.  One thing about independent titles for creators is they have so much freedom.  But sometimes is it too much freedom?   The only independent titles I buy on a normal basis are ones that stick to a normal schedule.  That's a fan's take on it.  From a creator's take I totally hear what you are saying.  It doesn't always pay the best, and you have to go where the money is.  So then we end up here, with awesome titles that stop coming out.  Or take huge breaks and when they do eventually come out again people have forgotten about them.

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## Deniz Camp

Totally. I understand being gunshy or reticent to support in the future due to unreliability and general loss of enthusiasm. I only mean to say not to take it personally, or to think it's the result of creators not caring, being lazy, being primadonnas, or whatever. More often than not it's the realities of economics more than anything else.

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## daningotham

> Totally. I understand being gunshy or reticent to support in the future due to unreliability and general loss of enthusiasm. I only mean to say not to take it personally, or to think it's the result of creators not caring, being lazy, being primadonnas, or whatever. More often than not it's the realities of economics more than anything else.


Yeah, hopefully Copperhead will come out again someday.  Had the same feel as Firefly, just hope it doesn't come to the same early ending fate.

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## matt levin

I'd like to add that over the years (sigh:  the decades, already) I've become accustomed to series 'taking long breaks' between issues (Castle Waiting?  Jack Staff?  KANE!?) and while it's hard waiting, there's always a surfeit of other titles between times, AND, when a new issue of the long-awaited series reappears, it's cause for celebration, even, in cases of long hiatuses (hmm...'hiatisae'?), cause for rereading and celebration.  I, at least, do not forget and give up on series I've really enjoyed.  I fill my time with other titles, re-read in anticipation of the next new issue, and enjoy my 'long-lost' title once more.

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## Drunk Viking

> I understand your frustration, but before you rush to anger and bitterness consider the economics of making comics. Many of these books are not making their creators much; and even those that pay a decent wage do so over time, intermittently, or when factoring in IP exploitation. 
> 
> The guy who does Copperhead is currently working on Dark & Bloody; he's getting a page rate, and a strong royalty incentive, from a company that knows how to get collected editions into bookstores. But, more than anything, he's getting paid, up front, guaranteed. He can plan his life around that. 
> 
> That isn't possible with Copperhead. That isn't possible with A LOT of Image books. And people have to eat.


Nearly everything I've read about creating comics implies that one of the main reasons creators go to Image to create their own comics is because they make a lot more money there than they would elsewhere.  But it sounds like you're saying that Creator-owned comics from Image earn their creators a mere pittance.  Am I misunderstanding you here?

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## Dark-Flux

You can potentially earn more with creator owned. But the risks are also greater, in that if sales drop below a certain point youd stop making a profit. Whereas with work for hire youd be getting a set page rate no matter the sales.

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## Deniz Camp

> Nearly everything I've read about creating comics implies that one of the main reasons creators go to Image to create their own comics is because they make a lot more money there than they would elsewhere.  But it sounds like you're saying that Creator-owned comics from Image earn their creators a mere pittance.  Am I misunderstanding you here?


You are not misunderstanding me. 

The majority of creator owned comics make their creators a pittance. A few of them are even created at a loss. Writers are the last people to get paid, and often aren't paid. Even the artists, if they're working backend, aren't making their page rates. 

Scott Snyder makes more from Wytches than he does from Batman. No doubt, so does Jock. But that book is selling many, many more copies than something like Copperhead. 

Creator owned stuff has the potential to make more than company owned stuff, but it's a long game. The short game really is all about what your name means in the market at the moment the book is coming out -- and Faeber had been out of comics for a while, and the artist didn't have much to his name. 

On the other hand, they'll continue earning money off that trade paper back for as long as it's in print. That isn't true for a company owned book (or, rather, with royalties you'll earn a very small percentage). They'll earn money if it gets optioned for filim or television, and more besides if it gets made. But those are big 'ifs'.

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## Drunk Viking

I appreciate that detailed response, thanks.

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## Drunk Viking

Wait, hold on.  Now that I think about it, in a way that's even worse.  So basically he started out like many others on independent books hoping to cash in on high trade sales and/or selling the rights, and when he realized it's not making as much money as he was hoping for, his response is "Eh, screw it, why should I bother if it's not worth my time"?

I get that at the end of the day it's a job and it's about making money, which I have no problem with, but that's incredibly disheartening.  That's exactly why people like myself are getting more and more jaded about picking up new independent series'. What's the point; they're likely to cancel it if the first few issues don't sell insanely high.  But that's probably a segue into another conversation about collectability/demand/etc.

I'm sure I'm being overly harsh.  But whether it's from being overworked or underpaid, series being canceled after a couple arcs or being delayed for over a year are annoying as hell.

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## Scott Lantern

> Wait, hold on.  Now that I think about it, in a way that's even worse.  So basically he started out like many others on independent books hoping to cash in on high trade sales and/or selling the rights, and when he realized it's not making as much money as he was hoping for, his response is "Eh, screw it, why should I bother if it's not worth my time"?
> 
> I get that at the end of the day it's a job and it's about making money, which I have no problem with, but that's incredibly disheartening.  That's exactly why people like myself are getting more and more jaded about picking up new independent series'. What's the point; they're likely to cancel it if the first few issues don't sell insanely high.  But that's probably a segue into another conversation about collectability/demand/etc.
> 
> I'm sure I'm being overly harsh.  But whether it's from being overworked or underpaid, series being canceled after a couple arcs or being delayed for over a year are annoying as hell.


No, I don't think it's like that at all.  The reality is Copperhead isn't making the artist enough money to survive, so he took a job where he could have some steady income.  He is still working on Copperhead in his free time, he didn't abandon it.  Copperhead will return, but they wanted to ensure that all 5 issues would come out monthly and with Scott working on another book, so he can make money to live, the next arc will be awhile yet...

If you like the book, you need to be patient and respect that the artist needs to work on other things as well.  He could have just walked away as well, but obviously the team is committed to continuing the book.

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## Bor

> Wait, hold on.  Now that I think about it, in a way that's even worse.  So basically he started out like many others on independent books hoping to cash in on high trade sales and/or selling the rights, and when he realized it's not making as much money as he was hoping for, his response is "Eh, screw it, why should I bother if it's not worth my time"?
> 
> I get that at the end of the day it's a job and it's about making money, which I have no problem with, but that's incredibly disheartening.  That's exactly why people like myself are getting more and more jaded about picking up new independent series'. What's the point; they're likely to cancel it if the first few issues don't sell insanely high.  But that's probably a segue into another conversation about collectability/demand/etc.
> 
> I'm sure I'm being overly harsh.  But whether it's from being overworked or underpaid, series being canceled after a couple arcs or being delayed for over a year are annoying as hell.


I really think that is you being overly harsh. These guys have bills to pay and if that means they have to take jobs from other places to be able to live then that is how it has to be. You really seem to be speculating a lot about motivations you have no idea about at all.

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

> I really think that is you being overly harsh. These guys have bills to pay and if that means they have to take jobs from other places to be able to live then that is how it has to be. You really seem to be speculating a lot about motivations you have no idea about at all.


He may be cynical about their intentions, but his own reasoning for avoiding indies is decently sound.  For instance, I don't buy Kurtis Wiebe titles b/c they can just stop being made at any point w/o any announcement (see: Peter Panzerfaust, Pisces).  

If it's the creators' best interest to work elsewhere mid-run (especially w/o any announcement), then it's fair if I think it's in my own best interest to avoid investment.

Besides, I know I don't know the creators' bills or lives, etc, but even if they're selling a mere 8k/mo (that's...$12k/mo to pay everyone involved?), which I believe titles like Copperhead, Peter Panzerfaust, etc sell, that should be enough for a decent living.  Especially if you a) write another title or b) do commission/side work.  I always consider these abandoned titles to show lack of sincere love for the art/craft and title itself.  If the creators want to make it happen, they will.  

Shame, too.  Pisces was amazing.

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## SwampyCA

> Scott Snyder makes more from Wytches than he does from Batman.


Is this true for sure?  I know #1 sold something crazy, like 80k, but #6 was down to 34k.  Meanwhile Batman averaged like 120k for five years.  Im just thinking about single issue profits on Wytches v Batman.  The trade profits would certainly favor creator owned.

I have always assumed Snyder was getting the highest page rate at the Big2 because of how well Batman was selling.

I just wish Scott and Rafael would get back to American Vampire which unfortunately only sells like 12k.




> Wait, hold on.  Now that I think about it, in a way that's even worse.  So basically he started out like many others on independent books *hoping to cash in* on high trade sales and/or selling the rights, and when he realized it's not making as much money as he was hoping for, his response is "Eh, screw it, why should I bother if it's not worth my time"?


This sounds harsh to me.
Im pretty sure people who choose to make comics understand its not a get rich quick scheme.  Also my guess is instead of them thinking its not worth my time its more like my family needs to eat.  I need a paycheck

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

> Is this true for sure?  I know #1 sold something crazy, like 80k, but #6 was down to 34k.  Meanwhile Batman averaged like 120k for five years.  Im just thinking about single issue profits on Wytches v Batman.  The trade profits would certainly favor creator owned.
> 
> I have always assumed Snyder was getting the highest page rate at the Big2 because of how well Batman was selling.
> 
> I just wish Scott and Rafael would get back to American Vampire which unfortunately only sells like 12k.


Even the highest page rate for Big 2 writers (if memory serves me right) is about $120/page.  So Snyder would be making ~$2.5k/mo from Batman singles (not sure how TPB royalties, any sort of comps or sponsorships, etc work), before taxes.  Not too shabby all things considered.  (http://www.makingcomics.com/2014/10/...tists-writers/ for some confirmation.  Google probably has more results)

From my understanding in the past, Image used to take a flat fee up front for publication.  Per their site, now they take a "small/modest fee" each issue.  Per Jim Zubkavich (http://www.jimzub.com/the-reality-of...-owned-comics/), Image takes $0.80/issue.  But overall, he says $0.30/issue is made after the publisher, Diamond, and retailers take their cut.  Not sure if he's using cement numbers or just using some broad examples.

Either way, $0.30 x 15,000 (around the Low, Descender, Klaus sales range...solid indie sales) comes to $4.5k.  That's split between writer, artist, colorist, letter, etc, however they agree upon.  I'll presume colorists and letterers don't demand much, they do bulk work anyway.  Also, lots of indie artists color their own stuff and writers even letter their own work.  I'll presume a writer makes in the range of $2k-2.5k from a 15k/mo indie seller.  If you're Hickman, BKV, Kirkman, etc, you're selling in the 20k-60k range, and probably selling another title or 2 as back up.  So that's much more $$

So...
If you're an ELITE Big 2 headliner writer, you'll make ~$2.5k/mo per title
If you're a SOLID indie writer, you'll make ~$2.5k/mo off one title
If you're an ELITE indie writer, you can be making $7k~10k/mo off 2-3 titles

Of course, these are not definitive #'s, but ultimately, indie writing isn't _guaranteed_ more money.  But the ceiling is much much higher.

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## SwampyCA

You could be right.  I just find it hard to believe. With Batman selling about a minimum of 120k @ $4 that is 480k a month, I would just assume Snyder gets a bigger piece of the pie than 2500 out of 480000.

As for Image, not a whole lot of titles sell more than 15k a month.  It’s really the name guys getting into that territory. 

If we use the 30 cent model the last issue of Copperhead sold 8.6k.  In other words about 2600 profit for the entire creative team.  

Hopefully they reap more in trade profits.  Although speaking of Jim Zub he is about pricing me out of the Wayward trades as each one gets more expensive.

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

> You could be right.  I just find it hard to believe. With Batman selling about a minimum of 120k @ $4 that is 480k a month, I would just assume Snyder gets a bigger piece of the pie than 2500 out of 480000.


Well, DC DOES have a lot to pay for on books...publishing cost, various management salaries, contracts to letterers/colorists maybe, royalties to creators' families(?), etc.  Maybe Snyder gets more, like $150/pg?  Who knows.  




> As for Image, not a whole lot of titles sell more than 15k a month.  It’s really the name guys getting into that territory. 
> 
> If we use the 30 cent model the last issue of Copperhead sold 8.6k.  In other words about 2600 profit for the entire creative team.  
> 
> Hopefully they reap more in trade profits.  Although speaking of Jim Zub he is about pricing me out of the Wayward trades as each one gets more expensive.


really?  He's increasing prices?  Makes me wonder if they get %-based profits on TPBs sales or if it's like a flat fee (I think I remember hearing it was a flat fee?  Maybe depends on publisher).  I love Zub, I wish him more success cuz I like the guy, and I know he's passionate about writing comics.

And speaking of publisher, we are discussing Big 2 and creator-owned pay scales.  If you're curious about licensed titles from Dark Horse, IDW, etc, from what I hear, the writers get paid up front for X amount of issues.  At least for Dark Horse.  Not sure about IDW, BOOM!, Archie, etc.  But I know I've heard Dark Horse pays creators up front for 25 issues of Conan or Aliens, etc.  Not sure how much or what kinda money creators get from TPB, but know your $ spent on licensed (Dark Horse only?) titles DON'T go to the creators - they got paid already.

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## Joker

Trade money is the same as single issues. It's based on sales, and that's where you're making the bulk of your money. 

Hickman talked pretty openly about that stuff in this podcast on SKTCHD. http://sktchd.com/podcast/off-panel-...athan-hickman/

It's worth a listen if you're a fan, and the industry stuff is worth it even if you're not. He's a pretty straight shooter so there's a lot you're not going to usually hear creators talk about.

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## SwampyCA

Thanks for the podcast link.

If Hickman says working at the Big2 is a big pay cut for him, then that must be true for Snyder or any of the name guys that can sell major units at Image.

It’s interesting to hear trades are potentially more profitable than the selling of the single issues.

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## Joker

> It’s interesting to hear trades are potentially more profitable than the selling of the single issues.


Is it? I wasn't surprised. Single issues are a short sale. I also imagine a lot of people read comics, but don't do the single issue/Wednesday thing.

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

> If Hickman says working at the Big2 is a big pay cut for him, then that must be true for Snyder or any of the name guys that can sell major units at Image.


I presume the Big 2's appeal to major writers that can flourish off indie sales is that it's regular/consistent/guaranteed income and, again I presume, offers benefits of some sorts.  Also, the opportunity to write characters they may really want a shot at.

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## SwampyCA

> Is it? I wasn't surprised. Single issues are a short sale. I also imagine a lot of people read comics, but don't do the single issue/Wednesday thing.


Yes, he said depending on pricing a trade can be $1 more profitable than the singles.
If you sell 5 @ 3.99 (19.95) and yet somehow the 14.99 trade reaps one dollar more profit, I was surprised.    Based on the discussion of the 9.99 price for Image V1 trades the singles will definitely be more profitable.




> I presume the Big 2's appeal to major writers that can flourish off indie sales is that it's regular/consistent/guaranteed income and, again I presume, offers benefits of some sorts.  Also, the opportunity to write characters they may really want a shot at.


If you listen to the podcast he gets into all of this near the end (around minute 56 or 57).  For a big name (Bru, Vaughn, Hick, Fraction) it sounds like there is no financial reason to work for the Big2.  Only if they have the time and have stories to tell with these characters.

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## JFP

> This sounds harsh to me.
> Im pretty sure people who choose to make comics understand its not a get rich quick scheme.  Also my guess is instead of them thinking its not worth my time its more like my family needs to eat.  I need a paycheck


Harsh or not, he's expressing a legitimate issue with supporting creator-owned comics: the abrupt delays and cancellations. It causes people to say, "Why bother?"

I wonder how Jay Faeber is taking it. He seems like a genuinely nice guy and cares about being honest with fans. It must really suck for him. By saying to Jay, "My family needs to eat. I need a paycheck." he's delaying Jay. What about Jay's family? What about Jay's paycheck? That was money out of his own pocket to the artist. Ouch.

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## Anduinel

> I presume the Big 2's appeal to major writers that can flourish off indie sales is that it's regular/consistent/guaranteed income and, again I presume, offers benefits of some sorts.  Also, the opportunity to write characters they may really want a shot at.


I'd guess this is why DC's latest round of exclusive contracts was actually exclusive -- DC only, not just "don't work for Marvel" as it's been in past years.

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

> I'd guess this is why DC's latest round of exclusive contracts was actually exclusive -- DC only, not just "don't work for Marvel" as it's been in past years.


Good point.  Having the Vertigo imprint is a pretty nice incentive.  Writers can still do their creator-owned stuff, just under Vertigo (and whatever business difference that entails vs Image, DH, etc).

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## Drunk Viking

> This sounds harsh to me.
> I’m pretty sure people who choose to make comics understand it’s not a get rich quick scheme.  Also my guess is instead of them thinking “it’s not worth my time” it’s more like “my family needs to eat.  I need a paycheck”


That is admittedly harsh, but as others have mentioned, wouldn't you expect a lot of people to hesitate when picking up a new Faerber/Snyder/etc book knowing that there's a good chance it will be delayed up to and possibly exceeding a year?  

Looking at last month's numbers, Image Comic sales have dropped below 8% in total unit sales, down from about 10.3% just the previous year.  2.3% doesn't sound like much, but that's about a 30% drop in total sales for them.  People just aren't buying as many Image comics.  Yes, there's lots of speculation on why that may be, but in my humble opinion it's a bit naive to think that these huge scheduling delays aren't at least a factor.

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## MajorHoy

> That is admittedly harsh, but as others have mentioned, wouldn't you expect a lot of people to hesitate when picking up a new Faerber/Snyder/etc book knowing that there's a good chance it will be delayed up to and possibly exceeding a year?  
> 
> Looking at last month's numbers, Image Comic sales have dropped below 8% in total unit sales, down from about 10.3% just the previous year.  2.3% doesn't sound like much, but that's about a 30% drop in total sales for them.  People just aren't buying as many Image comics.  Yes, there's lots of speculation on why that may be, but in my humble opinion it's a bit naive to think that these huge scheduling delays aren't at least a factor.


But, is Image making up some of those lost sales (at least through Diamond) in digital and tpb collection sales?

Diamond numbers just represent a decrease in orders by comic book shops. Does anyone know if there's been any serious decrease in the number of comic book shops that use Diamond, or if maybe those shops shifted ordering priorities to DC & Marvel for single issues?

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## JFP

> Wait, hold on.  Now that I think about it, in a way that's even worse.  So basically he started out like many others on independent books hoping to cash in on high trade sales and/or selling the rights, and when he realized it's not making as much money as he was hoping for, his response is "Eh, screw it, why should I bother if it's not worth my time"?
> 
> I get that at the end of the day it's a job and it's about making money, which I have no problem with, but that's incredibly disheartening.  That's exactly why people like myself are getting more and more jaded about picking up new independent series'. What's the point; they're likely to cancel it if the first few issues don't sell insanely high.  But that's probably a segue into another conversation about collectability/demand/etc.
> 
> I'm sure I'm being overly harsh.  But whether it's from being overworked or underpaid, series being canceled after a couple arcs or being delayed for over a year are annoying as hell.


I agree exactly with what you're saying. Delays and cancellations are way more and more fans are becoming less enthusiastic about new releases. 

I think indies should drop the old model of doing a monthly series. Instead, they should start making self-contained books. It would go like this:

1. Make a graphic novel that could stand on its own as a complete story. It would be like a movie, except in graphic novel form. 
2. After they've already created the entire graphic, then they either sell it all at once, or serialize it in installments.
3. If they wanna make a sequel, they can. Either like the James Bond movies, where there isn't set chronological order. Or like a series of sequels with chronology.

Question: who gets paid while they are making it a graphic?

Answer: who gets paid when a series book gets abruptly cancelled or delayed? The team is already making a pittance or losing money from the series anyway. Why not try the graphic novel route. The graphic novel route's main objective is to stop delays and cancellations mid-story. Creators could save up money for the graphic novel before doing it rather than expecting to be paid via sales by starting a story that might be delayed or cancelled. Creators might not be making money immediately with the graphic novel route. But they are gaining money and an audience by having a completed story to sell to the public before they publish it. As it is, many creators who do series are not only losing money from these cancellations and delays, they are also losing a good reputation. Indies now are gaining a bad rep because of the delays and cancellations. The creators themselves can have a bad rep. Jay Faerber is now amongst the people who has many fans saying, "I'll think twice before I start reading one of his comics."

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## Drunk Viking

I still feel there's legitimacy to the frustrations of these delayed comics.  Especially from Jay Faerber; just look at what happened to his 'Near Death' series.

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## Joker

> Good point.  Having the Vertigo imprint is a pretty nice incentive.  Writers can still do their creator-owned stuff, just under Vertigo (and whatever business difference that entails vs Image, DH, etc).


Vertigo contracts now require you to sign over your rights, is my understanding. So, it's not at all comparable to Image. 

Aaaaaaand let's be honest, I think Vertigo as a brand has taken a pretty big hit in the quality/perception department.

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## Deniz Camp

> Vertigo contracts now require you to sign over your rights, is my understanding. So, it's not at all comparable to Image.


That's incorrect.

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## GDC3

> Vertigo contracts now require you to sign over your rights, is my understanding. So, it's not at all comparable to Image. 
> 
> Aaaaaaand let's be honest, I think Vertigo as a brand has taken a pretty big hit in the quality/perception department.


It's no less a significantly appealing brand than say Dark Horse, IDW, Oni, or Boom. It still has value and recent new series like Unfollow, Sheriff of Babylon, and older series (Astro City) now taking up residency there have reinvigorated the brand. That quality/perception hit may have been accurate a few years ago, but certainly not recently.

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## Diamond

> It's no less a significantly appealing brand than say Dark Horse, IDW, Oni, or Boom. It still has value and recent new series like Unfollow, Sheriff of Babylon, and older series (Astro City) now taking up residency there have reinvigorated the brand. That quality/perception hit may have been accurate a few years ago, but certainly not recently.


They do miss a flagship title, though. They don't really have a new Fables or Sandman that grabs people's attention and can be used to promote the entire publishing line. Those are all at Image.

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## Joker

> That's incorrect.


Care to elaborate?

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## Deniz Camp

> Care to elaborate?


You don't sign away your rights.

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## Deniz Camp

> They do miss a flagship title, though. They don't really have a new Fables or Sandman that grabs people's attention and can be used to promote the entire publishing line. Those are all at Image.


American Vampire operates in that space, right down to the erratic release schedule.

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## Joker

> You don't sign away your rights.


Okay, good talk...

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## GDC3

> They do miss a flagship title, though. They don't really have a new Fables or Sandman that grabs people's attention and can be used to promote the entire publishing line. Those are all at Image.


I think Astro City has earned flagship status over the years. Also, a new Fables series is debuting in September. While I love quite a few Image series and am looking forward to a few more, they aren't the be all end all of indie publishing. So I wouldn't agree that those are all at Image now. DeptH, COPRA, Revenger, several Black Mask titles,  (I could probably make a list that would stretch across several posts). Image is certainly the "it" house right now for many readers, that i won't dispute. But Vertigo is climbing back into the game.

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## Mjolnir

Jay Faeber announced on his Twitter page on June 23 that Drew Moss will be drawing the next arc and is already hard at work. Artist Scott Godewski will do covers and consult on the book. But for this arc at least Drew Moss is doing it. Some of his work on the book Jay has posted. Moss' depictions of Boo and Clara look great! (https://twitter.com/JayFaerber) They will solicit the arc when it's all drawn. Apparently Scott Godewski just has way too many projects going on right now and can't commit to Copperhead at the moment. I get the feeling myself they'll re-evaluate Godewski's availability after the last issue of the arc (presuming it's issue #15 gets ready to come out sometime next year. Guessing April or May?) I'm guessing issue #11 will probably be solicited in December but probably January. It seems Drew Moss is kicking ass with drawing right now. If Scott can't do it, then Drew Moss might be doing another arc. That's just my guess though.

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## sven

> Jay Faeber announced on his Twitter page on June 23 that Drew Moss will be drawing the next arc and is already hard at work. Artist Scott Godewski will do covers and consult on the book. But for this arc at least Drew Moss is doing it. Some of his work on the book Jay has posted. Moss' depictions of Boo and Clara look great! (https://twitter.com/JayFaerber) They will solicit the arc when it's all drawn. Apparently Scott Godewski just has way too many projects going on right now and can't commit to Copperhead at the moment. I get the feeling myself they'll re-evaluate Godewski's availability after the last issue of the arc (presuming it's issue #15 gets ready to come out sometime next year. Guessing April or May?) I'm guessing issue #11 will probably be solicited in December but probably January. It seems Drew Moss is kicking ass with drawing right now. If Scott can't do it, then Drew Moss might be doing another arc. That's just my guess though.


Yeah his art look great so far.

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## JFP

> Jay Faeber announced on his Twitter page on June 23 that Drew Moss will be drawing the next arc and is already hard at work. Artist Scott Godewski will do covers and consult on the book. But for this arc at least Drew Moss is doing it. Some of his work on the book Jay has posted. Moss' depictions of Boo and Clara look great! (https://twitter.com/JayFaerber) They will solicit the arc when it's all drawn. Apparently Scott Godewski just has way too many projects going on right now and can't commit to Copperhead at the moment. I get the feeling myself they'll re-evaluate Godewski's availability after the last issue of the arc (presuming it's issue #15 gets ready to come out sometime next year. Guessing April or May?) I'm guessing issue #11 will probably be solicited in December but probably January. It seems Drew Moss is kicking ass with drawing right now. If Scott can't do it, then Drew Moss might be doing another arc. That's just my guess though.


Hopefully, Drew Moss is committed and won't bail out like that other guy. He should have probably hired the guy in the first place rather than choosing a douchebag who is gonna bail out on you halfway through. If the dude can't commit no point of him doing covers or acting as a "consultant". Just have the dude leave. 

This Godewski guy's delays have done more harm to Jay than good. Even though it's not Jay's fault, it's damaged his rep and people are saying, "I will think twice before I pick up another Faerber book." But I'm sure Jay's gonna be the nice guy and say, "Hey, let's not blame Godewski for screwing my rep. These things happen." as if that's gonna make things better.

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## Deniz Camp

Scott Godweski co-owns the book. There is no 'hiring'. He owns it as thoroughly as Faeber does. He was as at least as responsible for the creation of the book as Jay was, if not moreso.

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## JFP

> Scott Godweski co-owns the book. There is no 'hiring'. He owns it as thoroughly as Faeber does. He was as at least as responsible for the creation of the book as Jay was, if not moreso.


I stand corrected and I apologize for my harsh tone.

Still, Jay's rep is screwed, judging by all the "I'll think twice before picking up another Jay Faerber book" comments I've read. He was moreso responsible for the creation, moreso responsible for the delays, and moreso responsible to the damage to his partner's rep. Ouch.

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## klynn

Bummed by the change in artist. Godweski's work is a big part of what I enjoye about the book.  I hope this doesn't turn out like _Rat Queens_ which never recovered from the loss of Upchurch for me (totally different circumstances, I know, but hadn't realized how important the art was in my appreciation of the book until he was replaced despite the quality talent brought in).  I love the characters in _Copperhead_ enough to give it a chance, though.  Hoping for the best.

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## Anduinel

> Scott Godweski co-owns the book. There is no 'hiring'. He owns it as thoroughly as Faeber does. He was as at least as responsible for the creation of the book as Jay was, if not moreso.


Out of curiosity, does anyone know how that works in a circumstance where the artistic part of the team isn't able to fulfill their obligations for whatever reason? Do they draw a percentage of the profits from issues they didn't contribute to?

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## Mjolnir

> Out of curiosity, does anyone know how that works in a circumstance where the artistic part of the team isn't able to fulfill their obligations for whatever reason? Do they draw a percentage of the profits from issues they didn't contribute to?


It makes me wonder about The Walking Dead and Tony Moore's first six issue contribution. Nobody pictures Walking Dead any more and thinks him. It's been all Charlie Adlard like a work horse with the exception of some covers by Moore. Is Adlard considered a co-creator? How much of residual profits is Moore and Adlard entitled to? If Drew Moss continues beyond the issue #11-15 arc, does he get residual profits and percentage of profits if tv or movie rights are sold? I'm sure stuff like this was figured out when Faerber and Godeski sought Moss out. Be curious to know though.

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## daningotham

> Jay Faeber announced on his Twitter page on June 23 that Drew Moss will be drawing the next arc and is already hard at work. Artist Scott Godewski will do covers and consult on the book. But for this arc at least Drew Moss is doing it. Some of his work on the book Jay has posted. Moss' depictions of Boo and Clara look great! (https://twitter.com/JayFaerber) They will solicit the arc when it's all drawn. Apparently Scott Godewski just has way too many projects going on right now and can't commit to Copperhead at the moment. I get the feeling myself they'll re-evaluate Godewski's availability after the last issue of the arc (presuming it's issue #15 gets ready to come out sometime next year. Guessing April or May?) I'm guessing issue #11 will probably be solicited in December but probably January. It seems Drew Moss is kicking ass with drawing right now. If Scott can't do it, then Drew Moss might be doing another arc. That's just my guess though.


Thanks for the update!

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## keeen

> It makes me wonder about The Walking Dead and Tony Moore's first six issue contribution. Nobody pictures Walking Dead any more and thinks him. It's been all Charlie Adlard like a work horse with the exception of some covers by Moore. Is Adlard considered a co-creator? How much of residual profits is Moore and Adlard entitled to? If Drew Moss continues beyond the issue #11-15 arc, does he get residual profits and percentage of profits if tv or movie rights are sold? I'm sure stuff like this was figured out when Faerber and Godeski sought Moss out. Be curious to know though.


Pure speculation, but I would imagine that Moore retains ownership of the characters who he helped to create, like Rick and Carl.  I would imagine he's only compensated for the episodes those characters appear in? 

But here's an article that, if I've penetrated the legalese accurately, makes it sound like Moore is credited as a co-creator of the very concept in it's entirety.  It seems that Kirkman bought out his ownership rights for some kind of ongoing percentage deal, otherwise Moore (as equal creator of the concept and owner of the rights) would have been able to peddle his own competing Walking Dead show to another network.

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