# Comics  > Batman >  Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2018

## Aliltron

Well everyone time to start fresh and time to once again, appreciate our favorite red-headed Bat! So let's get going talking about Barbara Gordon and her career as Batgirl!

3717804-4852742605-27465.jpg

Batgirl_Barbara_Gordon_0028.jpg

Batgirl_Vol_4_10_Solicit.jpg

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## Yellow Lantern 15

Since the old thread is gone, let us restart. The last annual was very good and after the Vampire arc and filler issue with #30, their will be a new arc featuring._Secret Six_ Ragdoll. And don't miss another confrontation with Knightfall as Batgirl battles with her archenemies Knigtfall and the Disgraced!!!    Hopefully we can get some of the images and videos back from the old thread and pit them back on here.

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## Aliltron

Yes! I agree, hopefully we can save some of the images and videos from the old thread. But anyways, looking on. Yes the annual was a good follow up to the Vampire story arc. I really enjoyed having all of the Birds of Prey featured in the Annual. I'm really looking forward to seeing Ragdoll in issue #31. Did you have a chance to read Batman Eternal #4?

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## Yellow Lantern 15

> Yes! I agree, hopefully we can save some of the images and videos from the old thread. But anyways, looking on. Yes the annual was a good follow up to the Vampire story arc. I really enjoyed having all of the Birds of Prey featured in the Annual. I'm really looking forward to seeing Ragdoll in issue #31. Did you have a chance to read Batman Eternal #4?


No, But i am going next week to my comic book store to get it.  From what I have heard, it was an inversion of The Batman and Batgirl story.  But much better told.

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## Aliltron

> No, But i am going next week to my comic book store to get it.  From what I have heard, it was an inversion of The Batman and Batgirl story.  But much better told.


It's enjoyable! I really liked it, I just hope we see more of Batgirl in Batman Eternal. Can't get enough of her lol

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## batGRRRl4ever

Well, this thread seems the most appropriate location for my new 1st post!  As to Annual #2, even though Batgirl wasn't the central focus, by far I am finding that this story for me at least is the absolute best of the New 52 Batgirl series to date.  As a diagnosed sufferer of R-SAD (Reverse Seasonal Affective Disorder) myself, I found the original way that Pamela is now a sufferer of SAD to be excellent story telling by Gail Simone.  Even though I read just digitally now, I loved this story so much I think I will pick up an actual print copy.

And if this Annual is any indication of the quality coming from Ms. Simone's comment that she has gotten a bit more creative control on the title now, I can't wait to see what we will be appreciating about Babs in the next five issues!

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## Aliltron

> Well, this thread seems the most appropriate location for my new 1st post!  As to Annual #2, even though Batgirl wasn't the central focus, by far I am finding that this story for me at least is the absolute best of the New 52 Batgirl series to date.  As a diagnosed sufferer of R-SAD (Reverse Seasonal Affective Disorder) myself, I found the original way that Pamela is now a sufferer of SAD to be excellent story telling by Gail Simone.  Even though I read just digitally now, I loved this story so much I think I will pick up an actual print copy.
> 
> And if this Annual is any indication of the quality coming from Ms. Simone's comment that she has gotten a bit more creative control on the title now, I can't wait to see what we will be appreciating about Babs in the next five issues!



I couldn't agree with you more. It does feel like she has a little more creative control on this issue, hopefully it's something we see more of in the title! Very good issue indeed

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## batGRRRl4ever

FYI, everything from the old appreciation thread can be found here: http://oldforums.comicbookresources....ciation-Thread

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## Yellow Lantern 15

> FYI, everything from the old appreciation thread can be found here: http://oldforums.comicbookresources....ciation-Thread


I hope that we can retrieve some of the old stuff from the place.  Because they (admins) are only going to keep the old boards discussion for another 14 days before those things are lost forever.

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## E.Nigma

> Well, this thread seems the most appropriate location for my new 1st post!  As to Annual #2, even though Batgirl wasn't the central focus, by far I am finding that this story for me at least is the absolute best of the New 52 Batgirl series to date.  As a diagnosed sufferer of R-SAD (Reverse Seasonal Affective Disorder) myself, I found the original way that Pamela is now a sufferer of SAD to be excellent story telling by Gail Simone.  Even though I read just digitally now, I loved this story so much I think I will pick up an actual print copy.
> 
> And if this Annual is any indication of the quality coming from Ms. Simone's comment that she has gotten a bit more creative control on the title now, I can't wait to see what we will be appreciating about Babs in the next five issues!


Haven't read the Annual yet, but does it keep or rewrite anything from the Villains Month issue?



Also, is it a self-contained story, or does it continue in the regular Batgirl book? (And if so, when?)

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## Vanguard-01

> And if this Annual is any indication of the quality coming from Ms. Simone's comment that she has gotten a bit more creative control on the title now, I can't wait to see what we will be appreciating about Babs in the next five issues!


First of all? Vanguard-01, checking in with the Babs Love!

Second? Really? Gail's getting some more control? Hm! I may have to get back into reading Batgirl, then. I stopped reading after the non-stop depressing stories just killed my enthusiasm for Babs. But now, if Gail gets a chance to bring back Babs' more likable and upbeat qualities? Then I may just have to check back in.

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## batGRRRl4ever

http://www.actionfigurefury.com/dc-c...toy-fair-2014/



Just a reminder from the old thread of this New 52 Batgirl action figure which is still to come out this year for 2014!

And this is one pic from the old thread that is my absolute favorite:



I would love to have this as a framed poster!

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## Aliltron

> http://www.actionfigurefury.com/dc-c...toy-fair-2014/
> 
> 
> 
> Just a reminder from the old thread of this New 52 Batgirl action figure which is still to come out this year for 2014!
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to have this as a framed poster!


I WANT that figure sooooo bad!!! And I agree, I'd love to have that as a framed poster. Oh man....sorry I'm geeking out over that figure, I forgot about it!

And this is one pic from the old thread that is my absolute favorite:

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## Internet-man

...and now I have to reinstall photoshop if I want to re-make my old profile pic thing. Grrr. 
It was a picture of Babs.
*Edit*
Oh NVM. I started a Helena Wayne appreciation thread, so I feel i need to have her as my profile pic. lol

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## Enigmatic Undead



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## Jadis

> 


My first seen cool graphic of the new boards. 

I haven't had sleep in nearly twenty four hours and I thought I was hallucinating about the movement during the few back and forths.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Aliltron

Really looking forward to this issue!

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## robert

Batgirl & Poison Ivy by Noto.

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## Aliltron

Love that one by Noto! Really good

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## E.Nigma

Seems to me we can't have a legitimate "Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) Appreciation Thread!!" without this:

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## Aliltron

> Seems to me we can't have a legitimate "Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) Appreciation Thread!!" without this:



Ha! Agreed! Thank you for adding it!

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## batalia

Adam Hughes 
My favorite image of Batgirl ever.

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## LoneNecromancer



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## Aliltron

Any characters you would like Barbara either fight against or, guest character's you'd love to see in her solo title?

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## batalia

We are finally going to see her and Jason have a story together. I would like to see her interact with Superman/Supergirl. Damian when he comes back.

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## Aliltron

I'd love to see her and Supergirl interact in this title. I thought they would for Batman/Superman Annual but they didn't. We can hope though!

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## LoneNecromancer

> We are finally going to see her and Jason have a story together. I would like to see her interact with Superman/Supergirl. Damian when he comes back.


Whoa, really? When? Where? 

I haven't paid attention to the Batgirl solo for ages.

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## Batknight

> Whoa, really? When? Where? 
> 
> I haven't paid attention to the Batgirl solo for ages.


I think that's going to be in Eternal.

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## batalia

Yeah. Is in Batman Eternal.

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## MajorHoy

> I'd love to see her and Supergirl interact in this title. I thought they would for Batman/Superman Annual but they didn't. We can hope though!


But _New 52_ Supergirl isn't the same as the old Supergirl . . . it's really hard to think of a reason she'd team-up with _New 52_ Batgirl that makes sense and would be good for both characters until Kara is at a point of being ready to "fit in" with people on Earth. (Maybe it would work as part of Justice League United / Canada?)

I'd almost rather see _New 52_ Supergirl team up with Red Hood and the Outlaws before meeting Babara / Batgirl.

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## Aliltron

Or Black Canary. I think having Dinah guest star in a few issues could be fun.

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## MajorHoy

> Or Black Canary. I think having Dinah guest star in a few issues could be fun.


She has appeared briefly before in Batgirl, and they are both in Birds of Prey.

Personally, I think a Batgirl and Huntress meeting would be worth considering.

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## Aliltron

Yeah I know they have, I just think it'd be cool to see her again. Huntress? Maybe Bertinelli but she doesn't exist, right? (they could have changed it idk, I don't pay attention to World's Finest at all)

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## Internet-man

Black Canary should be back at some point and I would love to see Helena and Babs interact.
Maybe when they reboot both Worlds Finest (hopefully a long way away) and Supergirl (the sooner the better, really) they will have Batgirl and Supergirl be the new Worlds Finest.

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## marshal99



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## Aliltron

> Black Canary should be back at some point and I would love to see Helena and Babs interact.
> Maybe when they reboot both Worlds Finest (hopefully a long way away) and Supergirl (the sooner the better, really) they will have Batgirl and Supergirl be the new Worlds Finest.


True. Is Supergirl just not an enjoyable title? That's too bad, I don't follow it really, but I could enjoy your idea for them being the new World's Finest

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## Shimarenda

I think it would be fun to have Batgirl and Huntress team up for a story.  There are enough similarities and differences that their interaction could be very interesting.

It could be fun to have her team up with Atlee, if Atlee ever shows up again.  Babs dealing with a powerful fish-out-of-water could yield some intriguing and amusing situations.

And of course, a whole issue or three with Babs and Black Canary would be a dream come true.

I'm trying to think of a male hero she could team up with, but aside from Flash there aren't any who interest me, and I don't know that he would work very well.

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## Aliltron

> I think it would be fun to have Batgirl and Huntress team up for a story.  There are enough similarities and differences that their interaction could be very interesting.
> 
> It could be fun to have her team up with Atlee, if Atlee ever shows up again.  Babs dealing with a powerful fish-out-of-water could yield some intriguing and amusing situations.
> 
> And of course, a whole issue or three with Babs and Black Canary would be a dream come true.
> 
> I'm trying to think of a male hero she could team up with, but aside from Flash there aren't any who interest me, and I don't know that he would work very well.


I agree with basically everything you said. I'd really love to see her with Black Canary more or Huntress. A male hero? Hmm...I don't know Flash could actually be pretty fun!

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## Internet-man

> True. Is Supergirl just not an enjoyable title? That's too bad, I don't follow it really, but I could enjoy your idea for them being the new World's Finest


It's so bad they've made her a red lantern now.

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## Batman Fan

> http://www.actionfigurefury.com/dc-c...toy-fair-2014/
> 
> 
> 
> Just a reminder from the old thread of this New 52 Batgirl action figure which is still to come out this year for 2014!
> 
> And this is one pic from the old thread that is my absolute favorite:
> 
> 
> ...


Love both of these. That statue looks awesome.

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## Enigmatic Undead

From Batman '66 #30

Batman '66 #30 page 34.jpg.jpg

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## AdorkableMe

My bank account had been keeping me from staying current with the new Batgirl... but thanks to sales at C2E2 and an ARC of Vol 4, I'm just about caught up. The annual #2 totally reinforced my love of Gail Simone. She captures so many small nuances of Babs -- the character is so real and much more than just a capped crime fighter.

Gail Simone was at C2E2 and it took a lot of strength not to jump over the table and tackle hug her.

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## Sunbird

The board reboot swallowed up my comment about Babs in Eternal 4, so let me just reiterate... Very good! *This* is the Barbara Gordon I love!

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## Aliltron

> My bank account had been keeping me from staying current with the new Batgirl... but thanks to sales at C2E2 and an ARC of Vol 4, I'm just about caught up. The annual #2 totally reinforced my love of Gail Simone. She captures so many small nuances of Babs -- the character is so real and much more than just a capped crime fighter.
> 
> Gail Simone was at C2E2 and it took a lot of strength not to jump over the table and tackle hug her.


Sweet! Yeah, the annual was the Gail we know and love! I just hope she's (allowed to) continue writing stories like that.

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## neonrideraryeh

Gail's run on Batgirl has made Barbara Gordon into one of my all time favourite characters.  I really like her character journey and find her a really fun character.

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## ABH



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## ABH



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## ABH



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## Jadis

> Gail's run on Batgirl has made Barbara Gordon into one of my all time favourite characters.  I really like her character journey and find her a really fun character.


Welcome aboard and glad to hear you are enjoying Gail's run!  

While a longtime fan of Barbara I too have been liking this book quite much. It's joyous to see Barbara as Batgirl's solo series be this well done.

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## neonrideraryeh

> Welcome aboard and glad to hear you are enjoying Gail's run!  
> 
> While a longtime fan of Barbara I too have been liking this book quite much. It's joyous to see Barbara as Batgirl's solo series be this well done.


Thanks for the welcome  :Smile: 
and yes, I always thought Batgirl one of the more interesting folks in the DCU but this run has really clinched the deal for me.  It's one of my favourite New 52 runs too.  It's also led me to check out Gail's tumblr and twitter which are brilliant because she's so personable and funny.  I lent some of the trades to my dad and he liked them too.  Some people think the run is too dark but really it's about lighting up the dark with Batgirl's journey in overcoming her past and gaining the confidence to be the greatest Batgirl ever  :Big Grin:

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## Shimarenda

> 


Yvonne Craig was so good as Barbara Gordon/Batgirl.  The perfect mix of confidence and cute.

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## Enigmatic Undead



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## Aliltron

> 


I really like this piece! Great find my friend.

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## Jadis

Barbara in quiet thought. The background buildings seem to loom on this one.

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## Jay Kay

> It's enjoyable! I really liked it, I just hope we see more of Batgirl in Batman Eternal. Can't get enough of her lol


We will. From the sound of it, many of the consulting writers each have their own pet characters and places they want to explore in the story--Tynion's talked about focusing on Tim and Steph, Fawkes has talked about doing horror stories with Batwing--and Tim Seeley has talked about being focused on Batgirl with a big espionage story.

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## Shimarenda

The latest issue #33 was a good read.  One thing that people have mentioned as missing before: she has lenses for her cowl.  She puts a good hurting on Ragdoll, too, changing tactics when her usual manner of fighting fails.  She acquits herself pretty well here.

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## mrrightnow

> The latest issue #33 was a good read.  One thing that people have mentioned as missing before: she has lenses for her cowl.  She puts a good hurting on Ragdoll, too, changing tactics when her usual manner of fighting fails. She acquits herself pretty well here.


I liked the issue a lot. Ragdoll was so evil-looking - loved it. And I liked when Barbara lost control again and beat the snot out of him.

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## The_Greatest_Username

I haven't posted on this thread since the forum reboot. Batgirl is still one of my absolute favorite characters.
I'm way behind on her book though, I have all of the issues sitting beside my desk just waiting to be read.

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## Aliltron

The last issue was great! Man, Ragdoll was creepy! If there is one thing that Pasarin can actually draw it's making Ragdoll look SUPER creepy. The last few issues of Batgirl have been pretty darn good, I'm looking forward to next month's.

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## Enigmatic Undead



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## kjc_pop

Is the issue with Ragdoll a good place to start reading the series? I grabbed the first few issues when it was launched as part of the New 52 but fell super behind. I have been meaning to jump back on board but don't know what's the best place to do that. Any suggestions?

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## Godlike13

Probably the next one would be better. The Ragdoll issue seemed like a filler issue. U can if u want though.

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## Aliltron

I would say so, it seems to be a standalone story. The next issue seems to be a better place to start but I would pick it up anyways because it was really good!

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## Enigmatic Undead



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## nepenthes

I just noticed this...

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## Godlike13

Ha, i see it.

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## ABH

Mind = Blown...

ThrillKiller Babs didn't have a kid, did she?

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## batalia

I'm not reading Batman eternal but I want to follow Barbara's story so if anyone who is reading it regular wants to drop the issues she is in here in this thread I would appreciate it. I know she was in Eternal 4 so far and I'm not sure when her story with Jason and Batwoman is suppose to start. 

Why was Batgrrrrl banned. He made this thread lively.

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## Aliltron

Well, it looks like she'll be in next week's issue. I don't know why he was banned, too bad :/

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## nepenthes

> I'm not reading Batman eternal but I want to follow Barbara's story so if anyone who is reading it regular wants to drop the issues she is in here in this thread I would appreciate it. I know she was in Eternal 4 so far and I'm not sure when her story with Jason and Batwoman is suppose to start.


Eternal 4 is the only issue so far. This was easily Barbara's best appearance in the New 52 so I'd definitely check it out. And as Aliltron mentioned it appears her story picks up again in 11-13, beginning next week (Eternal is structured in 3 issue arcs from here onward, with Barbara's arc revolving around her fathers trial, in the immediate future at least - no sign of Kate of Jason yet.)  




> Why was Batgrrrrl banned. He made this thread lively.


If you didn't know already we have a policy of not discussing banned posters here. Suffice to say there were reasons for that one which go back a long way, and that is all - no further comments on the subject please.

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## batalia

BE 11-13 it is than. Thanks.

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## Jadis



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## Bat007007

> 


I think I'm love … She is the Knight.

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## cgrpow

Love the way Gail Simone writes Batgirl. Especially since the start of the new 52, where she's feeling unsure and a bit vulnerable. However, as someone who grew up with Oracle, I miss her wearing glasses. I know it's the tiniest thing, but seeing Barbara Gordon without the nerdy specs, it's just not the same.

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## ABH

I know this is the Babs/Batgirl appreciation thread, but I liked the unity of this piece:

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## Ghost-Type

Was I the only one wishing that at the end of Batman and Batgirl #21 Babs actually put that suit on, just for one panel? I'm sure it would have been way too small for her.

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## Enigmatic Undead



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## coffeelad

I've always loved Batgirl! Barbara doesn't get enough love.

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## ABH

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryP...40&GSub=124384

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## LoneNecromancer

Loving the new suit.

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## LoneNecromancer

Honestly, more I think about it, more I love it. Can't remember the last time I was this interested in a new story about Barbara- maybe when it came out Johns would be using some of his All-Star Batgirl plans in the next Earth One volume?

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## Punisher007

I actually fine the concept of a snap-on cape to be a really good one.  If you get it snagged on something, or if a villain tries to grab it and throw you off-balance, then the cape just comes off.  It's kind of brilliant really.

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## LoneNecromancer

> I actually fine the concept of a snap-on cape to be a really good one.  If you get it snagged on something, or if a villain tries to grab it and throw you off-balance, then the cape just comes off.  It's kind of brilliant really.


Well, she learned from the pro.

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## ABH

> I actually fine the concept of a snap-on cape to be a really good one.  If you get it snagged on something, or if a villain tries to grab it and throw you off-balance, then the cape just comes off.  It's kind of brilliant really.


Heh, one of fan-art pieces plays with that idea...



Here's a Batgirl/Spider-Gwen mash up by Ron Chan.

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## Xalfrea

I love this costume. Practical but not to the point of boring, yet not oversexualized.

Though now there are accusations her being "hipster". Now I've never kept up with Batgirl, so how exactly was Barbara during the New 52 so far that people would be upset at this personality change. Aside from it being New 52?

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## Punisher007

It is a pretty big tone shift, but a welcome one imo.  The book has been pretty much unrelentingly bleak and depressing from day 1.  Babs cannot catch a break and just as it seems that she was never happy.  It made Bendis's Daredevil look bright and optimistic by comparison.  It made me want to drink every time that I read an issue.  That may work for Batman, or Daredevil, or Batwoma, etc, but it just didn't work for Batgirl, at least to me.  I fully expect that she'll still face tough stuff and that there will be dark elements/moments.  It just won't be so completely depressing.

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## LoneNecromancer

> Though now there are accusations her being "hipster". Now I've never kept up with Batgirl, so how exactly was Barbara during the New 52 so far that people would be upset at this personality change. Aside from it being New 52?


It seems kinda hipster to me. But I don't view that as a bad thing at all. Babs strikes me as the sort of girl who would probably be into that sort of stuff if she was a real young woman around nowadays- thick-rimmed glasses, coffee shops, carrying around an iPad or a Mac, possibly a slightly retro taste in clothing... it says a lot about someone's personality without needing to say much at all.

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## scary harpy

> It is a pretty big tone shift, but a welcome one imo.  *The book has been pretty much unrelentingly bleak and depressing from day 1.  Babs cannot catch a break and just as it seems that she was never happy.*  It made Bendis's Daredevil look bright and optimistic by comparison.  It made me want to drink every time that I read an issue.  That may work for Batman, or Daredevil, or Batwoma, etc, but it just didn't work for Batgirl, at least to me.  I fully expect that she'll still face tough stuff and that there will be dark elements/moments.  It just won't be so completely depressing.


This is what really angers me. 

Simone would have _loved_ to write lighter stories but she never got the chance. Grim and gritty was an editorial mandate. Simone leaves due to creative differences with the editor and (*POOF*) everything changes like magic! Grim and gritty is out with the old editor.  :Mad: 




> I love this costume. Practical but not to the point of boring, yet not oversexualized.


Costumes, like artists, come and go. If you love it enjoy it while you can. 

I am glad that Barbara/Batgirl is getting a lot of positive attention.

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## Mecegirl

> I love this costume. Practical but not to the point of boring, yet not oversexualized.
> 
> Though now there are accusations her being "hipster". Now I've never kept up with Batgirl, so how exactly was Barbara during the New 52 so far that people would be upset at this personality change. Aside from it being New 52?


A part of me wonders if that is because this new design debuted when DC started showcasing their selfie variant covers. A lot of books have them, but people seem to be paying special attention to Babs as if it actually says something about her chracter, and is not just another variant cover.

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## The_Greatest_Username

My excitement for Batgirl has been reinvigorated. I'm loving all of this fanart that's sprouting up with her new costume.








> Honestly, more I think about it, more I love it. Can't remember the last time I was this interested in a new story about Barbara- maybe when it came out Johns would be using some of his All-Star Batgirl plans in the next Earth One volume?


Is he still going through with using her in the next volume? It would be pretty great to see how he'd portray her.

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## LoneNecromancer

> This is what really angers me. 
> 
> Simone would have _loved_ to write lighter stories but she never got the chance. Grim and gritty was an editorial mandate. Simone leaves due to creative differences with the editor and (*POOF*) everything changes like magic! Grim and gritty is out with the old editor.


Hasn't most of her work been fairly dark?

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## Dylan Davison

> Hasn't most of her work been fairly dark?


I mean some of it has had darker tones, but she wanted to writer lighter stories for Batgirl, not light stories. So I guess there would be some dark. Just not as much as they made her write.

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## Vworp Vworp

http://eisu.deviantart.com/


http://foursixsix.deviantart.com/


http://dsoloud.deviantart.com/

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## Vworp Vworp

http://saigonakisage.deviantart.com/


http://dirtysavage84.deviantart.com/


http://lun-acy.deviantart.com/

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## Vworp Vworp

http://tono-x-tono.deviantart.com/


http://juany.deviantart.com/


http://flavataste.deviantart.com/

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## LoneNecromancer

At this point I think you're just trying to boost your post count...

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## Vworp Vworp

> At this point I think you're just trying to boost your post count...


Why?  Is there a prize? 

For the record,  I would have bunged all 'em all in one post (which would have been a lot easier for me!), but there's a limit to the number of images you can attach per post.  To be fair, I did realise afterwards that it's a 4 pic-limit, not 3... So I posted, what one, two posts more than I needed to? I wouldn't mind so much, but you're the one who said... 




> At this point we seriously need to make a new thread to collect all this...


...over on another thread.

Right now, there's a ton of great artwork doing the rounds of Babs' new look.  So I shared some of it on the thread that's here specifically for that purpose.  

And seriously, who actually cares about _post counts!?_  :Confused:

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## LoneNecromancer

I was kidding.

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## Vworp Vworp

> I was kidding.


In that case...


http://miova.deviantart.com/


http://muzzillustrations.deviantart.com/

[IMG]http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/193/9/d/batgirl_by_michael*******d7qfeid.jpg[/IMG]
http://michaelbills.deviantart.com/

Oh, and it turns out there is a 3 image limit after all!

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## nepenthes

"Fan art" by Cameron Stewart ha :/

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## Vworp Vworp

> "Fan art" by Cameron Stewart ha :/


Man, now I kind of want him doing the art too.  Not that Babs T's stuff looks bad at all, from what I've seen (and embrace the irony, there's a lot of boobies there!).  But that looks great.  Maybe we'll get a fill-in issue or two, then we can have the best of both worlds!

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## FHIZ

> Grim and gritty is out with the old editor.


and sure enough.... no one pointed out the new writers saying the old editor is the one who set the change up.

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## nepenthes

Becky Cloonan

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## phonogram12

> Becky Cloonan


I've always loved Becky Cloonan's art. She would've been a good choice, too!

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## Enigmatic Undead



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## ABH

^Yeah, I just saw that earlier today. I'm sure it'll look great when Stanley is done with it.

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## LoneNecromancer

> ^Yeah, I just saw that earlier today. I'm sure it'll look great when Stanley is done with it.


He has now.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## ABH

Heh, awesome. That looks great, but I'm not surprised.

Though, I am surprised how quickly he was able to get that done.

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## Godlike13

Wow, that one is awesome  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Dylan Davison

And with that I have changed my mind. This costume could work in the new52. And with the Batman family as well.
I think it was just the Batgirl artist style that was making me think it would not fit. (Not that I don't like the art).

----------


## atomicbattery

> And with that I have changed my mind. This costume could work in the new52. And with the Batman family as well.
> I think it was just the Batgirl artist style that was making me think it would not fit. (Not that I don't like the art).


It is always a pleasant surprise when someone displays an open mind at these forums. Thank you

----------


## Dylan Davison

> It is always a pleasant surprise when someone displays an open mind at these forums. Thank you


Ya it took a while for me, but after that art and some fan art on Deviant Art I am liking this outfit more and more. Looking forward to reading the series. Hope is not a happy happy joy joy series the whole time though. A bit of Drama is needed to make a series good I think.

----------


## catbatfan

What happened to the Oracle appreciation thread? People like me who loathe Barbara as Batgirl but love her as Oracle need a place to appreciate her.

----------


## nepenthes

> What happened to the Oracle appreciation thread? People like me who loathe Barbara as Batgirl but love her as Oracle need a place to appreciate her.


My apologies, I deleted it earlier and meant to explain once had time to post properly;

I've edited the thread title to reflect that this is now a general Barbara Gordon Appreciation thread, for _all aspects_ of her character and publishing history. We won't be having separate threads for Dick Grayson Nightwing and Dick Grayon Spy, or Huntress Pre 52 and Huntress Post 52, so why for Barbara Gordon? This may be naive or idealistic but I'm hoping this time around that people can just deal with that; that characters have multiple depictions and respective groups of fans and we can simply remain civil and constructive towards each other in all things BGizzle. If this descends into the previous problems we've had with Batgirl threads then those in question will quickly lose their ability to post, so I don't see an issue either way. 




Carry on!   :Cool:

----------


## napolid

> He has now.


Wow this artist is amazing

----------


## mrrightnow

When will artists get it right? Barbara Gordon is supposed to have BLUE eyes.

----------


## MattSimasArt

Which issues of Batman '66 feature Batgirl most prominently?

Also, heres my go at the new costume.

----------


## HowitzerJoe

> He has now.


Stanley can make anything look good. Really fine work here as usual.

----------


## HowitzerJoe

> And with that I have changed my mind. This costume could work in the new52. And with the Batman family as well.
> I think it was just the Batgirl artist style that was making me think it would not fit. (Not that I don't like the art).


Sometimes it depends on the artist. I don't think a lot of the new 52 costumes look good without Jim Lee drawing them.

----------


## Carabas



----------


## Godlike13

Thats a goon one, but still my favorite Oracle image is


They need to bring back Babs glasses.

----------


## robert

Some more from Phil Noto.

----------


## Dylan Davison

> Sometimes it depends on the artist. I don't think a lot of the new 52 costumes look good without Jim Lee drawing them.


Well thats what I was saying the new artist of Batgirl makes it look like it does not fit, even though I love the artstyle the new artist uses, it just makes the costume look like it does not fit. Which is why seeing all the fan art and stuff has changed my mind.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

> Which issues of Batman '66 feature Batgirl most prominently?


#13 - 'The Sandman Says Goodnight'
#15 - 'The Tail of the Tiger Topaz'
#18 - 'The Kissing Cossack'
#30 - 'Cleopatra's Reign'
#31 - 'The Joker's Big Show'
#32 - 'Gotham Goes Ho Ho Ho'
#33 - 'The Dynamic Duo & Batgirl Say Hello!'
#34 - 'The Queen of Diamons' Big Heist'
#35 - 'Batman Makes Marsha Pay the Price'
#36 - 'To Be or Not to Be'
#37 - 'Don't Change That Bat Channel'
#38 - 'The Bat Host with the Most'

----------


## Carabas

> Sometimes it depends on the artist. I don't think a lot of the new 52 costumes look good without Jim Lee drawing them.


I think most of them don't look good, period.

I do like Superman and Wonder Woman's new suits a lot (but then I always did dislike the classic versions), but that's about it.

----------


## Jadis

> *Stanley can make anything look good.* Really fine work here as usual.


Exactly

Artgerm is virtually can't miss. Guy possesses wonderful talent.

----------


## MattSimasArt

Whoa there's already been that many issues out?

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## LoneNecromancer

Marcio Takara gives the new suit a shot.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

And this is great as well. 


source

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## robert

She looks like Alfred E. Neumann on that selfie with protruding ears. Not good. Eye color is wrong too.

----------


## ABH

There's been so many great pics of New Babs, in so many different styles...

----------


## Iopy

Original at Mike Maihack's site.
http://mikemaihack.tumblr.com/post/9...ls-new-costume

----------


## Godlike13

> There's been so many great pics of New Babs, in so many different styles...


Ooh, i like this one.

----------


## Dylan Davison

> Original at Mike Maihack's site.
> http://mikemaihack.tumblr.com/post/9...ls-new-costume


I love these comics! I am glad they did one for these. After the issue about all of Supergirls outfits this one fits right in! And I have to say, I like that Supergirl costume lol.

----------


## ABH

Babs and Diana:

----------


## nepenthes

Really nice!  

 Would be fun to see Babs take Diana on a tour of vegan cafés and pop up bars around Burnside ha :/

----------


## ABH

Here's another example of the New design, in a "more traditional" art style:

----------


## Dylan Davison

Love it! I am really liking this costume now haha.

----------


## ABH

'60s TV Batgirl Action Figure, at SDCC:

----------


## MattSimasArt



----------


## ABH

Wow, that looks fantastic, Matt.

----------


## CapeandCowl

Fantastic! That is some great artwork right there.


Quick question: Do any in-resident Barbara Gordon fans in here recommend the TV series "Birds of Prey" for Babs fans?

----------


## MattSimasArt

I thought it was okay. A lot of people hate the series but I thought it had potential. Oracle was pretty awesome. And the Batgirl episode was probably the best one.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## CapeandCowl

> I thought it was okay. A lot of people hate the series but I thought it had potential. Oracle was pretty awesome. And the Batgirl episode was probably the best one.


Thanks! I appreciate your thoughts! :Cool:

----------


## oasis1313

I still feel that Batgirl is a step down from Oracle.  At least, though, in the new costume, she's had sense enough to ditch those ridiculous high heel boots.

----------


## MattSimasArt

How was the whole being able to walk again thing explained? I only read vol 1 but that was quite a while ago.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> I still feel that Batgirl is a step down from Oracle.  At least, though, in the new costume, she's had sense enough to ditch those ridiculous high heel boots.


The previous costume didn't have high heels, either.

----------


## MattSimasArt

> Wow, that looks fantastic, Matt.





> Fantastic! That is some great artwork right there.


Thanks guys!

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## ABH

Some more New Batgirl art:

----------


## ABH

And to the boot haters -- Babs did try out a few other options:



Here's Babs during her Oracle days:

----------


## Jadis

> 


Artgerm is on target again. Great work as usual.

----------


## MattSimasArt

> Some more New Batgirl art:


The last one is by my close friend Te'Shawn Dwyer!

----------


## Shimarenda

> How was the whole being able to walk again thing explained? I only read vol 1 but that was quite a while ago.


Experimental surgery and a year of rehab.

----------


## ABH

another semi-realistic take on the New Batgirl design...

----------


## DHarper

From SDCC.

----------


## Pharozonk

> From SDCC.


Hey look, a GOOD Batgirl costume!

----------


## phonogram12

> Some more New Batgirl art:


This one's fantastic!

----------


## LoneNecromancer

Some early sketches Babs Tarr did of... Babs. So I imagine they're not quite the final product but should give an idea what civilian Babs will look like.

----------


## Xalfrea

Barbara looks like she has fun and will also have her no-nonsense moments too. This could be the first DC comic I'll be reading.

----------


## Godlike13

The lack of spectacles perturbs me...

----------


## Punisher007

She doesn't wear them when she's in costume.  Maybe she's just going with contacts.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

I like that she has the look and style of someone her age(21). Gail may have booted out her time as Oracle, but she still looked and read like a woman in her late 20s. You can't just say she's younger, she should act that way too.

----------


## shingi_70

> I like that she has the look and style of someone her age(21). Gail may have booted out her time as Oracle, but she still looked and read like a woman in her late 20s. You can't just say she's younger, she should act that way too.


agreed, the Gail babs was only 21 in name, writing and art wise she was pretty much late to early 30s.

----------


## mrrightnow

> agreed, the Gail babs was only 21 in name, writing and art wise she was pretty much late to early 30s.


Barbara's being precocious has always been part of her character, so I don't understand the issue with her "acting like a 30-year-old".  Next, people will be saying she's "too young to be as smart as she is". And then, before you know it, Barbara will become a parody of herself. If this new Batgirl has half a brain, I'll be impressed. She certainly doesn't look especially smart or formidable.

----------


## Punisher007

She didn't have much of one when Gail was writing her.  They kept TALKING about how smart she was supposed to be, but there was little evidence of that in the actual story.  She made a lot of dumb mistakes.  And yes, if you're going to specifically set an age for a character, then there should be at least SOMETHING in the actual book to indicate that they're that age.  Otherwise, just keep her age nebulus.

----------


## Brave Sir Robin

> agreed, the Gail babs was only 21 in name, writing and art wise she was pretty much late to early 30s.


I strongly disagree with this. Gail's Babs is pretty much a tightly wound, highly intelligent, eary twenty something. When I went to law school, there were plenty of people like her. Smart, intense, hard working, but lacking in real world experience. If she was actually in her early thirties, she would be naive and somewhat lacking in judgment. 

Gail's characterization is not only dead on, but her internal struggles really place Babs  as someone very bright but lacking the wisdom that comes from age. She is intelligent and thoughtful, but learning as she goes how to handle these problems both externally and internally. 

I will admit that the depth of the character is sort of in stark contrast to most of DC. Even thought the book is very successful, it does not quite fit in with the overall DC world as I have seen it. But that is why I have dropped all but Babs and Wonder Woman. Sady, they go next when Gail and Azz leave soon.  But it also probably alienates a lot of DC fans. 

Gail is doing a new DC book, surprising to me in light of all she has gone through with them but I will probably read that. If she can bring her magic to those characters, it will be a good book.

----------


## phonogram12

> She didn't have much of one when Gail was writing her.  They kept TALKING about how smart she was supposed to be, but there was little evidence of that in the actual story.  She made a lot of dumb mistakes.  And yes, if you're going to specifically set an age for a character, then there should be at least SOMETHING in the actual book to indicate that they're that age.  Otherwise, just keep her age nebulus.


No freakin' kidding, right?

----------


## catbatfan

It was so nice (and refreshing!) to see Barbara as Oracle again in Sensation Comics #1! Her Professor X-inspired superchair was especially cool. Too bad she can't be Oracle all the time. I enjoyed her as Batgirl when I was a kid, but I much prefer her as Oracle and Steph or Cass as Batgirl.

----------


## mainevent15

Anyone read todays BoP?

*spoilers:*
She broke off all ties with Black Canary at the end of the issue
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Babs makes an appearance as _Oracle_ in *Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman #1*.

Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman 1 page 7.jpg

----------


## Claude

> If this new Batgirl has half a brain, I'll be impressed. She certainly doesn't look especially smart or formidable.


What do smart people look like then?


Maybe she could wear her Smart Girl Glasses more. So people know she's a Smart Girl.

----------


## Godlike13

Yes, she should. Please bring her Smart Girl Glasses back. She's so hot in them  :Embarrassment:

----------


## godisawesome

Yeah, the glasses are incredibly attractive. It's kind of like her Arrow equivalent Felicity Smoak; beautiful lady to begin with, but with them...dang.

----------


## phonogram12

> What do smart people look like then?


I'd say she looks pretty smart. Lord knows we know what dour and depressing looks like with the previous run.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Anyone read todays BoP?
> 
> *spoilers:*
> She broke off all ties with Black Canary at the end of the issue
> *end of spoilers*


Any reason why ?

----------


## Godlike13

> Any reason why ?


Cause the books terrible and has needed to be put out of its misery for a while now.

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

Has anybody been checking out _Beware the Batman_? Young Babs seems to be embracing her role as Oracle rather than Batgirl.

----------


## scary harpy

> Has anybody been checking out _Beware the Batman_? Young Babs seems to be embracing her role as Oracle rather than Batgirl.


I have and I have enjoyed that development. I wish this cartoon had more exposure!

----------


## oasis1313

Oracle was a step up; Batgirl is a demotion.  I wouldn't mind a decent story arc where she regained the use of her legs, but I have friends in wheelchairs who really loved her as Oracle.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Has anybody been checking out _Beware the Batman_? Young Babs seems to be embracing her role as Oracle rather than Batgirl.


She was great on that show, I hope the new creative team focuses on developing her tech skills along with the more lighthearted attitude like she was portrayed there.

----------


## nepenthes

> Oracle was a step up; Batgirl is a demotion.  I wouldn't mind a decent story arc where she regained the use of her legs, but I have friends in wheelchairs who really loved her as Oracle.


On the whole I agree with you - would've preferred she remain as Oracle for several reasons, representation of handicapped being only one of them. That said they've made a solid decision that's unlikely to be reversed, and there's nothing that says you can't also do interesting stories with a contemporary BG Batgirl - see Eternity. The new solo direction has a very deliberate approach tailored for a specific audience, I think there's a bit more strategy and love going into it, and it, suits the long legacy and inherent appeal of the character far more than anything in the previous run imo. Looking forward to checking it out even if my ideal BG will always be the warrior-priestess of living internet v.3.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Vinsanity

I was watching _The Batman_ and man she is so much more fun than she is in BTAS/TNBA. Like entertaining, snarky and funny.

----------


## Xalfrea

Yeah, I rather liked The Batman incarnation of her too. Though I think people got off on the wrong foot with her there because she was introduced before Dick.
----------------
On the comics front, I await October. And I also like that small minicomic of her promoting her book and her taking the Ice Bucket challenge.

----------


## DemonRin

I just read Batgirl #34 and I'm sad now... *SPOILER*I was REALLY Hoping the end of Simone's run would come with Babs finally telling Alysia that she was Batgirl.  That seemed to be a place this was building to... then she didn't... T_T

Now Alysia's gonna get her few token appearances by the new creative team before she just stops appearing entirely and we get no more of her...
Sadface.

----------


## Yellow Lantern 15

> Yeah, I rather liked The Batman incarnation of her too. Though I think people got off on the wrong foot with her there because she was introduced before Dick.
> ----------------
> On the comics front, I await October. And I also like that small minicomic of her promoting her book and her taking the Ice Bucket challenge.


I will argue that she made the show a lot better in the 3rd season.  Prior to her introduction, _The Batman_ was an average show with a villain of the week status quo.  even thought it took a whole season to for Batman to accept her as a partner.  She also had very good chemistry with Robin in the 4th season.  Season five however cut back on her and returned to a Justice league show with Batman and Robin.  My only complain was she was 16 when she was introduced but looks no older then 13 due to the art style.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Cmbmool

I may not be the biggest fan of the new 52 Babs, but her Future Ends storyline is a bit more tragic than her current series.  :Frown: 

http://www.newsarama.com/22061-james...res-end-1.html

----------


## Stormcrow

Batgirl #37 variant by Darwyn Cooke! Everything is right in the world.

----------


## nepenthes

Goodness gracious. It's perfect.

edit- um......seriously? They made December "Darwyn Cooke Month"? That is amazing

----------


## nepenthes

This is craze

----------


## RafDanvers

My fave DC heroine! Batgirl Barbara! Love her New 52 costume but im not sure about the new one. Seems like she is a teenager..Am i right? I didnt want to see that happening. I like that sexy deadly femme fatale from Gotham spirit.

----------


## mrrightnow

It's sad that both the regular cover and variant to #35 give Batgirl green eyes. So lame. RUINS the art.

----------


## Kid A

If it helps, pretend she's wearing contacts.

----------


## oasis1313

> My fave DC heroine! Batgirl Barbara! Love her New 52 costume but im not sure about the new one. Seems like she is a teenager..Am i right? I didnt want to see that happening. I like that sexy deadly femme fatale from Gotham spirit.


Don't even need to wait for a reboot to de-age a character from 25 to 15.

----------


## phonogram12

I'm very excited for this book to come out tomorrow. For the first time, it seems, she'll not only act, but actually look age appropriate.

----------


## RafDanvers

So... is this a reboot? I really dont wanna believe shes a teen now. :/  Thought she had just moved to another city and chagned her costume. Like some fresh air for a jumping on point.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> So... is this a reboot? I really dont wanna believe shes a teen now. :/  Thought she had just moved to another city and chagned her costume. Like some fresh air for a jumping on point.


She's not a teen.  She's a young adult who hasn't been acting like one in a while (she's been acting like an older adult) because of the direction she had taken her life, and now she's going to live more like other women her age, early 20's.

The particular artist has a style that makes everyone look younger, but that's just his/her style.

----------


## RafDanvers

Yea thaaaaaaanks!!

----------


## Godlike13

New direction broke top 20 in sales. Pretty cool  :Cool:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Not surprising considering all the buzz around it, though I still think it could have benefited from a re-numbering. I think it's had a reprint as well.

----------


## Babs

> So... is this a reboot? I really dont wanna believe shes a teen now. :/  Thought she had just moved to another city and chagned her costume. Like some fresh air for a jumping on point.


She's 21. It's confirmed by both the creators and #35, where her friend Franky puts way too much make-up on Babs to make a profile for the Hooq dating site.

----------


## nepenthes

> Not surprising considering all the buzz around it, though I still think it could have benefited from a re-numbering. I think it's had a reprint as well.


To make things super-confusing DC have renumbered the trade volumes so that first trade of the new direction is Batgirl Vol.1, but not the series itself. How many people are going to buy the Simone Vol.1 by mistake? So yeah it should have been renumbered *and* renamed. Something simple and easy like _New Batgirl #1_ would have been fine.

----------


## Stormcrow

Coming our way September 2015, DC Collectibles black & white BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE statue based on Babs Tarr design! This is going to be one long year...

----------


## vitaminbee

> Coming our way September 2015, DC Collectibles black & white BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE statue based on Babs Tarr design! This is going to be one long year...


This looks beautiful! Definitely have to pick one up when it's out. Kind of wish they'd do one of Darwyn Cooke's Catwoman...

----------


## Babs

> Coming our way September 2015, DC Collectibles black & white BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE statue based on Babs Tarr design! This is going to be one long year...


I CAN'T WAIT!!! It looks perfect!

----------


## nj06

Barbara/Batgirl as a male:

----------


## oasis1313

> Barbara/Batgirl as a male:


What happened to the high heels?

----------


## Silvermoth

I'm loving the current series. I never would have thought I would like anything as much as the Simone run but it's been fantastic so far.

I hope babs ends up with that cute guy who lent his hard drive to her more than that old man teacher. The cute IT guy and her had fantastic chemistry!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

February's variant by Cliff Chiang

----------


## billee0918

> Coming our way September 2015, DC Collectibles black & white BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE statue based on Babs Tarr design! This is going to be one long year...


Ohhhh, she will be mine

----------


## Babs

> February's variant by Cliff Chiang


If that's the variant, where is the standard cover? Has it been uploaded anywhere yet?

----------


## Kryptoniac

> If that's the variant, where is the standard cover? Has it been uploaded anywhere yet?


All this makes me feel is utter sadness at losing him on WW..Wish he'd continue on the book without Azz

----------


## Stormcrow

I have ZERO interest in Harley Quinn variants, but DC had to go ahead and get Cliff Chiang do wonders with the one for Batgirl. Bastards.

----------


## Godlike13

> I have ZERO interest in Harley Quinn variants, but DC had to go ahead and get Cliff Chiang do wonders with the one for Batgirl. Bastards.


Lol, right. That cover just works so well.

----------


## BaneBreaker

From when Marguerite stopped by my LCS and left some signed copies behind

----------


## Vworp Vworp

If anyone's still missing Gail's grim-dark Batgirl, this might fill that gap....

----------


## heiro5

I did this, just foolin' around.  I am digging the new look/direction they've given Barbara Gordon's Batgirl, and Batwoman is a personal favorite.



Meanwhile, that Black and White statue of the new Batgirl is fantastic.  That will definitely be going up on my shelf.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

lol nice contrast between their facial expressions

----------


## Godlike13

> lol nice contrast between their facial expressions


Ya, and kind of creepy.

----------


## K. Jones

> What happened to the high heels?


Many of us are completely unable to master them.

----------


## nepenthes

> At the Spotlight On Gotham Panel at Thought Bubble in Leeds, with wonderful panel report by Bleeding Cool’s Editor-In-Chief Hannah Means-Shannon right here, *we learned that the creative team fought for a relaunch and a new issue 1 but that was rejected by the top brass.*
> 
> At the time, I remember Batgirl was a big issue book for the DC New 52 Relaunch, with a big change for Barbara Gordon and a controversial one. The panel suggested that for Batgirl, it might seem like another reboot – which is not what this comic book is.


http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/11/...-with-a-new-1/

----------


## heiro5

> lol nice contrast between their facial expressions


Haha, yeah. I was trying to play a lot of contrasts: bright/dark attitudes seen in their facial expressions, Barbara's natural red hair against Kate's totally fake battle wig, natural lip versus heavy lipstick.  Even their stances and what they're doing with their hands/arms.  Of course, the materials of their costumes.

As far as Barbara's expression goes, I wanted to get an excited, adrenalin junkie vibe, but I think I might have veered a bit far into crazy eyes territory.  Ah, well...

----------


## Godlike13

> At the Spotlight On Gotham Panel at Thought Bubble in Leeds, with wonderful panel report by Bleeding Cool’s Editor-In-Chief Hannah Means-Shannon right here, we learned that the creative team fought for a relaunch and a new issue 1 but that was rejected by the top brass.
> 
> At the time, I remember Batgirl was a big issue book for the DC New 52 Relaunch, with a big change for Barbara Gordon and a controversial one. The panel suggested that for Batgirl, it might seem like another reboot – which is not what this comic book is.
> 			
> 		
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/11/...-with-a-new-1/


I think thats a fair reason. I wouldn't have minded either way, and if #35 didn't see a significant bump then id have said they messed up, but it seems to have worked out fine.

----------


## RubberLotus

I've been on the lookout for chapters of the digital _Batman '66_ comic with Batgirl in them... would anyone care to tell me which stories have her?

----------


## marvelguy25

> If anyone's still missing Gail's grim-dark Batgirl, this might fill that gap....


she looks alot like barbara kean from Gotham

----------


## Stormcrow

I'm loving all of the variant covers Cliff Chiang provides for Batgirl, but this one is definitely my favorite. From the upcoming March's movie poster themed variants:



And here's the lovely original, for those who missed it!

----------


## BaneBreaker

Just posted my Nightwing statue, here's the ArtFx+ Batgirl statue that I received

----------


## oasis1313

Barbara should take on the mantle of Batwoman, and give the Batgirl moniker to Cass or Steph, who are more "girl" than grown-up Barbara.

----------


## Babs

> Barbara should take on the mantle of Batwoman, and give the Batgirl moniker to Cass or Steph, who are more "girl" than grown-up Barbara.


Welcome to the new 52, where Barbara Gordon is 21 years old, and was never this "grown-up" Barbara/Oracle you remember from the old pre-flashpoint continuity. 
Also, may i remind you that you are in the Barbara *Appreciation* thread. Complaining that a character isn't what you want her to be isn't appreciation. If you wanna say something nice about Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain, please go post in the appreciation topics for those characters, and don't bother fans of the iconic Batgirl.

Batgirl_Adventures_1.jpg

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Barbara Gordon fan going all the way back to the late '60s animated Batman program on Saturday mornings. Loved her as Oracle, but even more so as Batgirl.

----------


## Stormcrow

There's a cool article up at *Multiversity Comics* regarding the secret antagonist for the current Batgirl run as part of their annotations. They have a theory that Barbara's algorithm of her mind has actually become sentient, effectively becoming "Oracle" of sorts, and is attempting to bring her back into the cycle of despair she was caught in back in Gotham. It's pretty interesting, and quite an elaborate plot if the creative team is actually going there.

----------


## nepenthes

> There's a cool article up at *Multiversity Comics* regarding the secret antagonist for the current Batgirl run as part of their annotations. They have a theory that Barbara's algorithm of her mind has actually become sentient, effectively becoming "Oracle" of sorts, and is attempting to bring her back into the cycle of despair she was caught in back in Gotham. It's pretty interesting, and quite an elaborate plot if the creative team is actually going there.


Makes sense and would be a pretty damn clever way to bring aspects of Oracle back into the equation. And if it doesn't happen...well then that blog post may well have ruined the series for me...






> Welcome to the new 52, where Barbara Gordon is 21 years old, and was never this "grown-up" Barbara/Oracle you remember from the old pre-flashpoint continuity. 
> *Also, may i remind you that you are in the Barbara Appreciation thread. Complaining that a character isn't what you want her to be isn't appreciation*. If you wanna say something nice about Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain, please go post in the appreciation topics for those characters,* and don't bother fans of the iconic Batgirl*.


No need to be so defensive - I'm sure we can all get along in the same thread discussing ALL aspects of Barbara Gordon - past, present, _alternate_ and future - without falling into faction warfare  :Cool:  




> I've been on the lookout for chapters of the digital _Batman '66_ comic with Batgirl in them... would anyone care to tell me which stories have her?


I used comicbookdb 

#13 - 'The Sandman Says Goodnight'
#15 - 'The Tail of the Tiger Topaz'
#18 - 'The Kissing Cossack'
#30 - 'Cleopatra's Reign'
#31 - 'The Joker's Big Show'
#32 - 'Gotham Goes Ho Ho Ho'
#33 - 'The Dynamic Duo & Batgirl Say Hello!'
#34 - 'The Queen of Diamons' Big Heist'
#35 - 'Batman Makes Marsha Pay the Price'
#36 - 'To Be or Not to Be'
#49 - 'Bats, Books, and Crazy Crooks'

May as well just grab the trades!

----------


## billee0918

So happy to see Batgirl's Jan sales still over 45k...very little attrition over prior month.  She's a hit!

----------


## Arnie_2000

One of my favorite Batgirl stories isnt even in comics, its in the episode of Batman: The Animated Series: Over The Edge. the episode starts out with the bat family taking fire from police in the batcave and leaves you to wonder what in the world is going on then it ends nicely and it has a great barbara and gordon scene in the end. very nice depiction of the character by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm.

----------


## Babs

> One of my favorite Batgirl stories isnt even in comics, its in the episode of Batman: The Animated Series: “Over The Edge”. the episode starts out with the bat family taking fire from police in the batcave and leaves you to wonder what in the world is going on then it ends nicely and it has a great barbara and gordon scene in the end. very nice depiction of the character by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm.


Yeah, i remember watching that episode, and i forgot to read spoilers, so i was like... "O no they didn't." and i literally paused the episode, and spent about 15 minutes looking out of my window just pondering whether i ever wanted to watch this show again. Then i continued to watch it, and when the episode was finished i realized how brilliant it was. Definitely one of the best episodes of the show. The ending with her father was adorable. 

If anyone cares, google Kevin Smith's podcast: "Fatman on Batman", and look for the one where he interviews Paul Dini. They discus the episode, and when they're discussing the ending of the episode Paul Dini gets very emotional and sheds a tear.




> Makes sense and would be a pretty damn clever way to bring aspects of Oracle back into the equation. And if it doesn't happen...well then that blog post may well have ruined the series for me...


Yes, even without this article, i also thought about the possibility of this algorithm turning into a digital new 52 version of Oracle. I wouldn't drop the series if it didn't turn out like this, but it would be an absolute genius move from Cameron Stewart and Brenden Fletcher to do this. 
I mean let's say this does turn out this way. How perfect would this be? Imagine the beauty of it, Barbara as Batgirl being guided by Oracle as individual characters working together. This is the perfect way of brining back Oracle without having to change Batgirl. It would also be cool to see Barbara have Oracle the way Tony Stark has Jarvis.

----------


## Arnie_2000

i almost had the same exact reaction haha, i remember being a kid and sitting up in my chair being so scared that the show was going to be done for good after the episode, truly brilliant writing from Paul Dini.

----------


## Stormcrow

Babs is getting two new gorgeous statues from Diamond Select, one from Yvonne Craig's _Batman '66_ Batgirl and another one based on Batman: TAS. These two were the ones that I grew up with, so I'm really happy they're revisiting these versions of the character. Already pre-ordered the Babs Tarr B&W DC Collectibles statue, but with this announcement I might just have to start a Batgirl statue collection!

----------


## Stormcrow

I stumbled upon a Batgirl action figure based on her _All-Star Batman & Robin_ appearance and I just had to get it! I gotta say I'm pretty fond of that look, and I guess someone over at DC must be as well since it pretty much became her "year one" costume in the New 52, just in a different color scheme (I prefer the black and yellow over the grey and blue, though).

And while that whole series was a hot mess, upon reading it again I thought Miller did portray Batgirl pretty good in issue #6 - except for all the cursing, which was a huge issue, but still... Youth. Inspiration. Purpose... and Mischief!

----------


## Babs

Yeah, i have that series and figure too. 

It's funny, because if you look at how Barbara looked the first time as Batgirl in the new 52 before being paralyzed and healed, her original Batgirl costume looks quite a bit like the all-star one. A bit recolored, but it's the same domino mask and ponytail idea.

SecretOriginsBatgirlYO.jpg

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

That makes it a lot harder for Dick Grayson to disguise himself as Batgirl, in order to throw Jim's suspicions off from Barbara.

----------


## GoingPostal

Nothing a bit of make up can't cure.

----------


## Babs

> That makes it a lot harder for Dick Grayson to disguise himself as Batgirl, in order to throw Jim's suspicions off from Barbara.


Yeah, lol... I always felt that part of Batgirl: Year One was a bit sketchy. Dick dressing as Batgirl. In later comics, including more recently during Simone's run, it's heavily implied that "daddy knows". 
I think it's better to have Jim know it, or at least imply that he does, because it's pretty ridiculous to the level of Lois Lane not recognizing Superman with glasses that Jim Gordon wouldn't recognize his own daughter by looks and voice.

----------


## jules

> In later comics, including more recently during Simone's run, it's heavily implied that "daddy knows". 
> I think it's better to have Jim know it, or at least imply that he does, because it's pretty ridiculous to the level of Lois Lane not recognizing Superman with glasses that Jim Gordon wouldn't recognize his own daughter by looks and voice.


I think it's pretty clear that he has a good idea who most of the Bat-family are, in his own plausible deniability kind of way.

Talia Al Ghul flat-out introduced Damian to Gordon as "Batman's son", so - assuming he didn't fail to notice that Bruce's son was the same boy, and that the new Robin was much the same age and height - it's not just a case of he can't see without his glasses on.

And you'd really think that he'd recognise his daughter if he ever got close enough to Batgirl.

----------


## Stormcrow

It would make sense for Jim to know what Babs is up but keep quiet and play dumb, but I haven't got that impression from their New 52 interactions so far. He was hunting down Batgirl to the ends of the Earth after she "killed" James Jr. and kept worried about Barbara's safety at the same time, that seemed kind of at odds.

I hope Stewart and Fletcher get to use Jim in their book post-Convergence from time to time, I always liked Babs relationship with her dad.

----------


## jules

> I hope Stewart and Fletcher get to use Jim in their book post-Convergence from time to time, I always liked Babs relationship with her dad.


The little they have done with him so far, in the Biker Assassin Girls issue and the Secret Origins story have been great, so hopefully they'll return to him once we're past this current story arc. He's only just across the river, after all.

Though I'd guess his current low profile in Batgirl is a combination of wanting to keep the end results of Eternal vague, the siloing of the new books while they find their feet without interference, and the fact that Babs too needs to find her feet in a new environment.

----------


## Stormcrow

Is it just me, or is the solicitation for issue #41 teasing that Frankie might take on the Oracle role? Gotta say I kinda hate that they're dealing with the "new" Batman, I prefer _Batgirl_ to be a little bit more independent. I'm tired of all the books being pulled into whatever Snyder is doing.

*BATGIRL #41*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art by BABS TARR
Cover by CAMERON STEWART
THE JOKER Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
On sale JUNE 24  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for more information.
Theres a new Batman in townand that spells bad news for Barbara Gordon! Shes already got enough upheaval in her life, with her roommate Frankie in on her biggest secret_and now shes looking to get even more involved in Batgirls business_!

----------


## Frontier

I'm fine with the All-New Batman showing up. Something big like a new Batman, who might not even be Bruce, makes sense to reverberate around the other books in the line even if the the big thing Doyle is pushing for is keeping most of the books in their own little niche and world separate from the main Batman book. I like to see connectivity and shared universe elements in the books I read, so long as it doesn't work to the detriment of the book itself, and considering the creative team I doubt that will be the case here  :Wink: .

Looking forward to seeing how the new Batman is used in the book and getting to see Babs Tarr' rendering of him  :Smile: .

----------


## Stormcrow

There's another interview with the creative team on *Comicvine*, but since CBR did me the disservice of merging the thread I created for that with the one from their own interview it got a bit lost within the Black Canary talk, so I'm bringing it up here as well.

What's interesting about this one is that they offer a bit more info on the classic Batgirl villain they're bringing back:




> *CV*: Will we see new villains? Returning villains? A mix?
> 
> *BF:* Amix? But, if were going to speak to anything, were bringing a villain into the New 52 or whatever post-New 52post-Convergencewere bringing back a villain. Its a Batgirl villain you havent seen
> 
> *CS:* Probably an unexpected one too. I think people might speculate, Oh who could they bring back? but I think this one
> 
> *BF:* Theyre not going to guess!
> 
> *CV:* One that we havent seen in the New 52?
> ...


And with that description, the one I'm thinking might fit the bill is *Velvet Tiger* from Detective Comics #518-519. She's certainly unexpected, has a killer look and would be hard to guess, as well as fitting to what they've been doing so far: she's the owner of a computer company that creates a new identity to blackmail people with the secrets she acquires from their systems. She might be a little too similar to Riot Black though, but Batgirl doesn't have a huge rogues gallery and a reinterpretation is due. Any other villains that come to mind?

Also, looking at those Detective Comics issues I found this fun little moment. That sounds pretty unbelievable indeed, Babs!

----------


## Godlike13

Im hoping for Killer Moth  :Cool:

----------


## Stormcrow

> Im hoping for Killer Moth


They said it was a villain not yet seen in the New 52, Killer Moth already showed up in Green Arrow. But I agree they need to meet ASAP!

----------


## Godlike13

> They said it was a villain not yet seen in the New 52, Killer Moth already showed up in Green Arrow. But I agree they need to meet ASAP!


What, really? Killer Moth popped up already. Is he any good?

----------


## Stormcrow

> What, really? Killer Moth popped up already. Is he any good?


He was... different, with a more "real-world" look and was actually a bit of a joke. You can check him out in Green Arrow #25, it's the Zero Year tie-in where he first shows up and is beaten up by Green Arrow and Batman. He comes back later in issue #32 but doesn't really get to do much.

----------


## Godlike13

Hmm he looks kind of cool. So much for him though. Oh well.

----------


## scary harpy

> He was... different, with a more "real-world" look and was actually a bit of a joke. You can check him out in Green Arrow #25, it's the Zero Year tie-in where he first shows up and is beaten up by Green Arrow and Batman. He comes back later in issue #32 but doesn't really get to do much.


Who are the others, please?

----------


## Stormcrow

> Who are the others, please?


They're Brick and Red Dart.

So, any other thoughts about the upcoming Batgirl villain? I thought people would be more excited about it...

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> He was... different, with a more "real-world" look and was actually a bit of a joke. You can check him out in Green Arrow #25, it's the Zero Year tie-in where he first shows up and is beaten up by Green Arrow and Batman. *He comes back later in issue #32 but doesn't really get to do much.*


If so, then bring him back as a Batgirl's villain.

----------


## Godlike13

Alright so lets talk about this



I love it, yet at the same time i hate it. Get ur god damn hands off Babs!  :Mad:  Its a horrifying cover, but thats whats its suppose to be. Its the only one of those covers ive seen so far that truly invokes what a monster the Joker really is. Its gut retching seeing Babs so valuable, yet at the same time its what really sells the horrificness of it. When a cover can make me feel the range of emotions that this cover is making me feel, i have to applaud it.

----------


## ViewtifulJC

that's a great dark ass cover

----------


## 16 Bit

Love the cover. Horrifying.

----------


## Stormcrow

Rafael Albuquerque is crazy talented, but I have lots of issues with this cover. Every other covers looks fun with some crazy stuff going on, but Barbara is the only character that looks downright miserable and terrified.

Barbara keeps on being victimized time after time by the horrible events in The Killing Joke. You don't see Jason Todd going through this. Even when the current creative is actively looking to move on from her past with the current arc, we get _this_ variant cover the very next issue where they mention it feels like they finally got their fresh start. No such luck, apparently.

I really wonder why the hell that story remains "in continuity", it just brings down the character IMO. But it's going to remain a part of her history, can we at least move on please?

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

The cover is not poorly drawn by any means, I just hate the concept behind it. I'm really tired of Barbara getting the victim treatment in this regard. She should be treated like the strong character that she is.

----------


## mr_crisp

Is she a teenager?  She looks like a teenager to me.

----------


## Xalfrea

Oh gawd, it's like looking at a car accident. You don't wanna look at it, but it just keeps getting your attention...

----------


## Nygma

First cover in a long time that has really grabbed my attention. I get why people aren't comfortable with it, but I think it's a incredible looking cover and one that draws a tonne of emotion. Doesn't fit the current vibe of the book at all though, but often variants don't

----------


## thecrimson

I'm hearing that there are some people trying to get DC to change the cover.




> I really wonder why the hell that story remains "in continuity", it just brings down the character IMO. But it's going to remain a part of her history, can we at least move on please?


It's a huge part of her history. Removing it would be like removing the death of Gwen Stacy from Spider-Man's history. I get why they went with this cover. If you're going to do Joker variant covers, then it makes sense that the Batgirl one would be tied to the Killing Joke.

----------


## dick_wingnut

So sick of tmblr kids and their delicate feelings trying to stifle artistic expression.

That cover is a home run for the very reason they have such a harsh reaction to it.

----------


## Rakzo

As I said in other places, I really don't see the problem with that Albuquerque cover.

----------


## Celgress

I've always loved the character, in all her various incarnations.

----------


## thecrimson

> So sick of tmblr kids and their delicate feelings trying to stifle artistic expression.
> 
> That cover is a home run for the very reason they have such a harsh reaction to it.


I hope DC doesn't change it.

----------


## themasething

If people are getting offended at a villain acting evil, then maybe they need to check their social justice privilege... Did I use the term correctly? (This is a joke btw)

Seriously though. The Joker is and always has been a pure psychotic villain. He's done some really fucked up shit in the past 75 years, none more memorable than the events of The Killing Joke. This is a callback to an iconic piece of comic book history, though with Batgirl in her current era costume to keep things recent. This image is a hostage image, and Batgirl is reacting like anyone her age (Yes, I'm treating this in her New 52 continuity as she is now back as a late teenager/early twenty year old in collage) would when they have someone holding a gun to them. Anyone who thinks they could be 100% stone faced and fine in this situation is more soulless than the Clown Prince of Crime.

Fucking Twitter and Tumblr retards are once again stepping in on something a lot of them know nothing about; and as usual, they are throwing around their top cards: Rape and Misogyny. I've read so far today upwards of 100+ accounts of this cover "referring to when The Joker raped Batgirl after shooting her"... Excuse me while I double check my copy of The Killing Joke... Nope! No rape happened. There were some sexualized photos taken of Barbra to "remind Jim of her" that reappear later in the book, but no actual rape happens. What you see is Barbra, naked, covered in blod from the gun shot screaming in pain. Again, if you're seeing rape, get a fucking life!

The other card I'm seeing played a lot is the "This is what you get when a bunch of BOYS treat this is THEIR medium and want to keep GIRLS out of it". WHAT. THE. FUCK!? I can't even fathom a remote connection between that ideal and the cover! Are the Twitter/Tumblr crowd saying that because the cover shows a male keeping a crying female captive that it's somehow a message about how violence is a purely male thing and if we show it in comics it's something that is keeping female readers out of the hobby? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH  HHHHHHHHHH!!! The stupidity of people in this day and age is out of control.

Once upon a time DC defied the Comic Book Authority and put out some really controversial covers and stories. I hope to the comic book gods that they keep that in mind and go through with publishing this cover. If the Twitter/Tumblr crowd want to go and change everything around to their liking, then go over to Marvel where Marvel will bend over backwards to their wishes at the expense of long time readers who want something a bit more real and adult.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I didn't realize Batgirl fans are supposed to enjoy a cover featuring their favorite character victimized (yet again) with a gun pointed at her genitals.

----------


## trooper_thorn

> I didn't realize Batgirl fans are supposed to enjoy a cover featuring their favorite character victimized (yet again) with a gun pointed at her genitals.


Nobody says you have to like it, but the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments does seem a bit much.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Nobody says you have to like it, but the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments does seem a bit much.


Being critical of a cover isn't gnashing teeth. It's something that fans do all the time. Only when it pertains to a female character do people suddenly get hyper defensive.

----------


## trooper_thorn

> Being critical of a cover isn't gnashing teeth. It's something that fans do all the time. Only when it pertains to a female character do people suddenly get hyper defensive.


When one of your criticisms is that the gun barrel is "pointed at her genitals" (which incidentally makes you the only person I've seen actually claim that) I'd say you're overreacting just a tad.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Being critical of a cover isn't gnashing teeth. It's something that fans do all the time. Only when it pertains to a female character do people suddenly get hyper defensive.


Tumblr and twitter crybabies always seem to lose it whenever they see a female character in peril though. How do you expect for Babs to react when she's being held hostage by the man who crippled her?

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> When one of your criticisms is that the gun barrel is "pointed at her genitals" (which incidentally makes you the only person I've seen actually claim that) I'd say you're overreacting just a tad.


How is that overreacting? The gun is literally pointed at her genitals.

BG-Cv41-Joker-variant-solicitation-68d7f.jpg




> Tumblr and twitter crybabies always seem to lose it whenever they see a female character in peril though. How do you expect for Babs to react when she's being held hostage by the man who crippled her?


I actually think the reaction is over DC's decision to put her in the position in the first place. Why is everyone else in those variants either looking heroic or taking part in some hilarity while Babs has to be victimized...again?

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> I actually think the reaction is over DC's decision to put her in the position in the first place. Why is everyone else in those variants either looking heroic or taking part in some hilarity while Babs has to be victimized...again?


Killing Joke is strongly tied to Babs character. It should be referenced it in some way. I would love to see a Joker cover with him beating Jason with a crowbar in his book but alas we didn't get it.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Killing Joke is strongly tied to Babs character. It should be referenced it in some way. I would love to see a Joker cover with him beating Jason with a crowbar in his book but alas we didn't get it.


Agree to disagree then, I guess. I'd much prefer to see a cover with Jason and/or Babs being triumphant over the Joker.

----------


## trooper_thorn

I saw it as the gun being lazily slung over her shoulder in the simultaneously casual and horrifying manner which is often used to great effect with the Joker (he'll chat with you about your day while sticking a knife in your gut), and I'm pretty sure most people (pro and con) also thought the same thing.

I wasn't kidding when I said you are the only person I've seen make this "observation".

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> I saw it as the gun being lazily slung over her shoulder in the simultaneously casual and horrifying manner which is often used to great effect with the Joker (he'll chat with you about your day while sticking a knife in your gut), and I'm pretty sure most people (pro and con) also thought the same thing.
> 
> I wasn't kidding when I said you are the only person I've seen make this "observation".


I think you're reading too much into my observation. I didn't say he was aiming or shooting or anything of the sort. I said she has a gun pointed at her genitals, which is something that is clearly shown.

----------


## Kanon the Sea Dragon

Hi, batfans

First, i love, love Babs. She is like, my fav female comic book character ever. I really liked her oracle role at its time. In new 52 early days , i missed oracle, and i tought have her again with the cowl was a devolution. But with the new creative team , i changed my mind, totally. I dont miss oracle at all anymore.I rather not see oracle ever in the main earth. In fact, i actually got tired of those comments that babs apparently needs a wheelchair for being a interesting character. Hum..how about no :Big Grin:

----------


## Stormcrow

> It's a huge part of her history. Removing it would be like removing the death of Gwen Stacy from Spider-Man's history. I get why they went with this cover. If you're going to do Joker variant covers, then it makes sense that the Batgirl one would be tied to the Killing Joke.


The New 52 was a reboot where lots of things that were part of the characters' histories were erased, like Superman's marriage or all things Green Arrow. Yet they kept The Killing Joke even though they wanted Babs younger as Batgirl.  It just seems at odds, but all right... it's there. Doesn't mean I need it in my face all the time. Especially the way it's presented on that cover, with Barbara as a victim once again instead of a hero.




> Killing Joke is strongly tied to Babs character. It should be referenced it in some way. I would love to see a Joker cover with him beating Jason with a crowbar in his book but alas we didn't get it.


You get exactly that in the main Batman book.

----------


## Godlike13

> Hi, batfans
> 
> First, i love, love Babs. She is like, my fav female comic book character ever. I really liked her oracle role at its time. In new 52 early days , i missed oracle, and i tought have her again with the cowl was a devolution. But with the new creative team , i changed my mind, totally. I dont miss oracle at all anymore.I rather not see oracle ever in the main earth. In fact, i actually got tired of those comments that babs apparently needs a wheelchair for being a interesting character. Hum..how about no


I miss Oracle, but im in no hurry to see Babs go back to being Oracle. Things with her as Batgirl are good right now.

----------


## themasething

> It just seems at odds, but all right... it's there. Doesn't mean I need it in my face all the time.


Funny thing about that... It's a ALTERNATIVE cover, you can request from your local comic book retailer that you do not have to get that cover. You have that option and you have every right to make the choice. So use that right instead of complaining that it actually exists.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Funny thing about that... It's a ALTERNATIVE cover, you can request from your local comic book retailer that you do not have to get that cover. You have that option and you have every right to make the choice. So use that right instead of complaining that it actually exists.


Of course I'm not buying it, but that doesn't make the iconography any less disturbing. The point is the image by itself, regardless of its variant cover status.

----------


## thecrimson

Something involving the Joker is disturbing? That's new.

As a full grown adult, I would piss myself in fear if I ever saw the Joker. He's a terrifying man who would kill me any day of the week with no reason. People should be right to find him disturbing and terrifying. Batgirl was crippled by him. I'd be terrified of him even more if I somehow managed to survive an encounter with the man.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Something involving the Joker is disturbing? That's new.
> 
> As a full grown adult, I would piss myself in fear if I ever saw the Joker. He's a terrifying man who would kill me any day of the week with no reason. People should be right to find him disturbing and terrifying. Batgirl was crippled by him. I'd be terrified of him even more if I somehow managed to survive an encounter with the man.


Yes, it's understandable. But it's also basically all we ever see if it: Barbara as a victim. I would like to see her empowered and triumphant over the Joker fit once. Or at least not shown as darned miserable as that cover.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I said on the other thread that my issue with the cover is that Barbara is being degraded to make the Joker look cool again. If they wanted to give the Joker the upperhand, I think there would have been better ways to do that for the cover. For starters, they could make it at least a little bit funny.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Yes, it's understandable. But it's also basically all we ever see if it: Barbara as a victim. I would like to see her empowered and triumphant over the Joker fit once. Or at least not shown as darned miserable as that cover.


She's being held captive by the person who crippled her. How can she not be miserable and upset?

----------


## Stormcrow

> She's being held captive by the person who crippled her. How can she not be miserable and upset?


How about a cover where she's _not_ held captive by the man who crippled her? That would be what I was actually talking about.

But even if they're intent on reflecting The Killing Joke, it can be done tastefully like the Harley Quinn variant for last issue. Or virtually any other of the Joker variant covers where the titular hero is not covered in tears and are actually fun.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> How about a cover where she's _not_ held captive by the man who crippled her? That would be what I was actually talking about.
> 
> But even if they're intent on reflecting The Killing Joke, it can be done tastefully like the Harley Quinn variant for last issue. Or virtually any other of the Joker variant covers where the titular hero is not covered in tears and are actually fun.


When did it become tasteless for heroes to be in peril?

----------


## Stormcrow

> When did it become tasteless for heroes to be in peril?


She's not just in peril, it's the whole composition of the cover as well as the continuous exploitation of her character being victimized like that.

This isn't to my taste, but I suppose there's an audience for everything. That's all.

----------


## sidekick77

> When did it become tasteless for heroes to be in peril?


For most male heroes, the peril is temporary, they are allowed to keep a semblance of agency in line with their masculine image, and of course, the story will usually be ABOUT THEM at a minimum. The Killing Joke held none of that for Barbara.  It was about invoking a reaction from Batman and Jim Gordon.  Barbara and her assault/sexual exploitation is just a device.  Her role as Batgirl is not even a thought in this story.  So why do they keep revisiting it [in such a distasteful way] in the Batgirl book?

----------


## themasething

I'm just going to call Stormcrow & Mr. Medusa out to say the issue directly: THEY don't want to see ANY woman in a situation that isn't positive, empowering or dominant. It's ok, just say it instead of hiding behind the "we don't want to see Babs as a victim" routine.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> For most male heroes, the peril is temporary, they are allowed to keep a semblance of agency in line with their masculine image, and of course, the story will usually be ABOUT THEM at a minimum. The Killing Joke held none of that for Barbara.  It was about invoking a reaction from Batman and Jim Gordon.  Barbara and her assault/sexual exploitation is just a device.  Her role as Batgirl is not even a thought in this story.  So why do they keep revisiting it [in such a distasteful way] in the Batgirl book?


The story was a major turning point for Barbara. It didn't effect Gordon and Batman as deeply as it did for her. Other than serving as possible origin story for the Joker, what happened to Barbara is what the Killing Joke is best known for. I personally thought she became better for it when she became Oracle. I find nothing distastefully about the cover.

----------


## sidekick77

> The story was a major turning point for Barbara. It didn't effect Gordon and Batman as deeply as it did for her. Other than serving as possible origin story for the Joker, what happened to Barbara is what the Killing Joke is best known for. I personally thought she became better for it when she became Oracle. I find nothing distastefully about the cover.


I applaud what Kim Yale and John Ostrander did to restore Barbara's agency as a hero--but that was done by two people wanting to correct a senseless debasement of a beloved female character.  There was no grand plan in Barbara becoming Oracle, so the excuse of it being a turning point for her is pretty thin, because Moore wrote this as a oneshot.  

The decision to even cripple her in the fashion they did is so controversial, no one wants to take clear ownership of approving the story or allowing it to become a permanent part of Bat continuity.  Excuses and rumors just get volleyed back and forth between writer and editorial team from that era, which was Wein and Giordano for this project.  Yale had to go in there and actively fix things and *give Barbara a purpose beyond that storyline*, because its not like Moore or the editors were prepared to do anything.

So yeah, I agree, Oracle is awesome, but the violent, sexual 'joke' on her character is not a Batgirl story.  It doesn't need to be revisited in this fashion. Seriously, I get that its Joker-month--and Barbara has faced the clown before--so why draw any confrontation with him in this form?  

idk... even if one doesn't find the image distasteful, its not business smart either.  Think about the full audience that buys this book, especially post-relaunch; the cover is completely tone-deaf to a large segment of its reading base.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> I applaud what Kim Yale and John Ostrander did to restore Barbara's agency as a hero--but that was done by two people wanting to correct a senseless debasement of a beloved female character.  There was no grand plan in Barbara becoming Oracle, so the excuse of it being a turning point for her is pretty thin, because Moore wrote this as a oneshot.  
> 
> The decision to even cripple her in the fashion they did is so controversial, no one wants to take clear ownership of approving the story or allowing it to become a permanent part of Bat continuity.  Excuses and rumors just get volleyed back and forth between writer and editorial team from that era, which was Wein and Giordano for this project.  Yale had to go in there and actively fix things and *give Barbara a purpose beyond that storyline*, because its not like Moore or the editors were prepared to do anything.
> 
> So yeah, I agree, Oracle is awesome, but the violent, sexual 'joke' on her character is not a Batgirl story.  It doesn't need to be revisited in this fashion. Seriously, I get that its Joker-month--and Barbara has faced the clown before--so why draw any confrontation with him in this form?  
> 
> idk... even if one doesn't find the image distasteful, its not business smart either.  Think about the full audience that buys this book, especially post-relaunch; the cover is completely tone-deaf to a large segment of its reading base.


 Moore didn't expect the book to be canon when he wrote it. Ostrander saw that the bat editors weren't doing anything her so he used her for suicide squad. It more of the line of not letting a good character go to waste then fixing a mistake. How is it not business smart? The Killing Joke is an iconic story. Referencing it in some way would please fans of the story.

----------


## nepenthes

> I'm just going to call Stormcrow & Mr. Medusa out to say the issue directly: THEY don't want to see ANY woman in a situation that isn't positive, empowering or dominant. It's ok, just say it instead of hiding behind the "we don't want to see Babs as a victim" routine.


If that's how you interpret their arguments, that's fine and feel free to take that up with them, but best to address the posters directly please rather than speak around them.

----------


## Stormcrow

Moving on from the tone-deaf discussion over a matter that's been settled...

I got this as a print from Artgerm at a con this weekend and it's glorious!

----------


## nepenthes

I love the new grumpy Oracle already. Looking forward to this issue... :Cool:

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, im liking her too. Her angry face is adorable.

----------


## Xalfrea

I haven't been following Batgirl for a while, so I'm curious. Oracle is back? And it's Babs? Yet Babs is also still Batgirl?

----------


## nepenthes

> I haven't been following Batgirl for a while, so I'm curious. Oracle is back? And it's Babs? Yet Babs is also still Batgirl?


Short answer: yeah. 

Long answer: it goes back to her surgery and revealed in _Secret Origins #10_. It's all pretty great.

----------


## Stormcrow

What's your take on Frankie potentially becoming the new Oracle, as hinted in interviews and the solicitation for issue #41?

I would have expected DC to go with either Chloe Sullivan from _Smallville_ or the recently introduced Felicity Smoak from _Arrow_, both of which took on similar roles in their respective tv shows and are more widely known.

But I really like Frankie and it'll be interesting to see where this goes, Babs certainly could use the help.

----------


## Godlike13

Im ok with it, but i don't think she goes beyond being just Babs' own personal Oracle. But as to fulfilling that role for the greater DCU, or even the Bat family i just don't think the character has the legs. Plus there's now Julia.

----------


## Shimarenda

In the Batgirl: Endgame one-shot, Batgirl calls Frankie by her name, so I guess the algorithm will be named Oracle.  It's really a nice flip, having Babs be the one out in the field while an operative watches her back.  I'm reminded of nice scenes from Dixon's BoP such as when Black Canary sneaks into the villain's tropical mansion, hooks up a device to the lock on the door to the tunnel below, and Oracle cracks the lock from the clocktower.

----------


## Soldy

I'm just gonna leave this picture here
hzrul6inji4.jpg

----------


## scary harpy

> I'm just gonna leave this picture here
> hzrul6inji4.jpg


I find it creepy.

----------


## Stormcrow

The solicitation for Batgirl's July Annual is out! Bengal is back! Guest-starring Grayson and Gotham Academy! Can't wait for this one!!!

*BATGIRL ANNUAL #3*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art by BENGAL and others
Cover by BENGAL
On sale JULY 29 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T
On her latest mission, Batgirl finds herself mixing it up with Helena Bertinelli of Spyral…but who is the mysterious Spyral agent who seems to be one step ahead of her at every turn without ever showing his face? She’s determined to crack this mystery – but Grayson is just as determined not to get caught! Plus: Batgirl visits Gotham Academy – and there are plenty of surprises in store for her!

----------


## joybeans

With her photographic memory, she should be able to recognize his butt, right?

----------


## jules

> With her photographic memory, she should be able to recognize his butt, right?


You'd think she'd have spent more time studying it over the years than Midnighter had. Definitely ought to be possible.

Maybe he has to make sure that he never, ever lets her get a view from the rear. The face is already taken care of by the hypnos implant, right? Wonder if what's left of AI Babs can see through that?

----------


## M L A

Pls no love triangle or jerkass Dick

----------


## joybeans

> Pls no love triangle or jerkass Dick


I don't think any of the writers involved would go for that.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I don't think any of the writers involved would go for that.


Well, I really don't know what Stewart and Fletcher would go for, to be honest. Of course, in this situation, it's more a matter of the Bat Office's strategy, than the preferences of individual writers. So better to ask what Doyle would go for.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> With her photographic memory, she should be able to recognize his butt, right?


That needs to happen for umm... character development reasons.

----------


## joybeans

Actually, I could see it playing out with Dick successfully evading Babs for the whole issue, only to find a note from her saying, "I recognize that ass anywhere." And this skipping the whole tearful reunion that the Bat office is desperately trying to avoid.

----------


## jules

> Actually, I could see it playing out with Dick successfully evading Babs for the whole issue, only to find a note from her saying, "I recognize that ass anywhere." And this skipping the whole tearful reunion that the Bat office is desperately trying to avoid.


I'd be fine with that. Let's play this particular theme for fun rather than tears, just for once.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

She should just leave him a note with this drawn on it. He'll figure out the rest.

----------


## nepenthes

Edit: ah, already posted but yeah..this is gonna be a laugh 



*BATGIRL ANNUAL #3*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art by BENGAL and others
Cover by BENGAL
On sale JULY 29 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T
On her latest mission, Batgirl finds herself mixing it up with Helena Bertinelli of Spyral…but who is the mysterious Spyral agent who seems to be one step ahead of her at every turn without ever showing his face? She’s determined to crack this mystery – but Grayson is just as determined not to get caught! Plus: Batgirl visits Gotham Academy – and there are plenty of surprises in store for her!

----------


## Stormcrow

Solicitation for July's issue! Really excited to see Livewire show up, even though I always thought of her more of a Superman villain but I'm glad Batgirl called dibs. And that's a killer design for her!

*BATGIRL #42*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art by BABS TARR
Cover by CAMERON STEWART
On sale JULY 22 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Batgirl can barely hold her own in combat against the new Batman… so what happens when Livewire joins the fight with the intention of taking them both out?

----------


## Stormcrow

I've been thinking that since they're introducing Livewire, another DCAU villain that would be a good fit for the current Batgirl is the thrill-seeking Roxy Rocket. It was fun when she went against Stephanie Brown during her time as Batgirl, I'd like to see Barbara taking a shot at her too.

----------


## Prime

L


> Solicitation for July's issue! Really excited to see Livewire show up, even though I always thought of her more of a Superman villain but I'm glad Batgirl called dibs. And that's a killer design for her!
> 
> *BATGIRL #42*
> Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
> Art by BABS TARR
> Cover by CAMERON STEWART
> On sale JULY 22 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Batgirl can barely hold her own in combat against the new Batman… so what happens when Livewire joins the fight with the intention of taking them both out?


Man, first Green Lantern, now Batgirl. Maybe Superman should steal Ra' Al Ghoul. XD

----------


## Frontier

> I've been thinking that since they're introducing Livewire, another DCAU villain that would be a good fit for the current Batgirl is the thrill-seeking Roxy Rocket. It was fun when she went against Stephanie Brown during her time as Batgirl, I'd like to see Barbara taking a shot at her too.


Roxy in Batgirl, and redesigned by Babs Tarr, would be so awesome  :Big Grin: .




> L
> 
> Man, first Green Lantern, now Batgirl. Maybe Superman should steal Ra' Al Ghoul. XD


Well, to be fair, he got to steal Hector Hammond from Green Lantern at least  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Stormcrow

It's just been announced that within the Season Pass for Batman: Arkham Knight there will be a Batgirl-focused mission! Seems like they basically just translated her original New 52 costume into the game. I never really liked the armored look for Babs in the comics, but it does fit the game's aesthetic perfectly.

_Batgirl: A Matter of Family
An all new prequel story expansion in an entirely new location where you play as Batgirl for the very first time in the Arkham series - check out the first render of Batgirl._

----------


## nepenthes

^ Just when you thought the New 52 costume was gone forever, ha.  The  inevitable Hipster skin will be awesome though.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

That's awesome, I've been wanting them to have a playable Batgirl since Arkham City. The fact that it's Barbara makes it even better.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> ^ Just when you thought the New 52 costume was gone forever, ha.  The  inevitable Hipster skin will be awesome though.



It looks ten times better than the first new 52 uniform, but she should have a variation of her much superior Burnside uniform.

----------


## Stormcrow

Babs is featured in August's Bombshells Variant for Batman/Superman #23! I don't think we've ever seen her interact much with Lois Lane, that could actually be really fun sometime.

----------


## joybeans

Is Batgirl really in variant cover timeout? I noticed that Gotham Academy and Gotham by Midnight didn't get variants, either.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Is Batgirl really in variant cover timeout? I noticed that Gotham Academy and Gotham by Midnight didn't get variants, either.


It does seem like DC pulled out Batgirl completely from the variant covers program after the Joker incident with the creative team. Not even Fletcher's Black Canary is getting her own Bombshells cover, she's being stuck with being a Green Arrow variant even though the book is getting variants from Babs Tarr for the first two issues.

----------


## t hedge coke

> Babs is featured in August's Bombshells Variant for Batman/Superman #23! I don't think we've ever seen her interact much with Lois Lane, that could actually be really fun sometime.


I imagine the current continuity doesn't include Babs having dated Clark a few times. But, I hope it does.

----------


## joybeans

> It does seem like DC pulled out Batgirl completely from the variant covers program after the Joker incident with the creative team. Not even Fletcher's Black Canary is getting her own Bombshells cover, she's being stuck with being a Green Arrow variant even though the book is getting variants from Babs Tarr for the first two issues.


Well, Black Canary is a new series. None of the post-Convergence series are getting themed variants.

----------


## joybeans

> I imagine the current continuity doesn't include *Babs having dated Clark* a few times. But, I hope it does.


Wait, what?

----------


## t hedge coke

> Wait, what?


For some reason, I can't get images to attach, but Bruce put them together. I think, while she was a congresswoman.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I imagine the current continuity doesn't include Babs having dated Clark a few times. But, I hope it does.


I remember the first time they "dated" - it was an imaginary pre-_COIE_ story where Kal-El's rocketship crashed in Gotham City instead of Smallville. He grows up to be Bruce Wayne/Superman and Babs is his library co-worker/sweetheart.

----------


## joybeans

Ah, the Silver Age days. Babs is only 21 post-Flashpoint.

----------


## Loose Threads

> I remember the first time they "dated" - it was an imaginary pre-_COIE_ story where Kal-El's rocketship crashed in Gotham City instead of Smallville. He grows up to be Bruce Wayne/Superman and Babs is his library co-worker/sweetheart.


There's always something inherently hilarious about Clark being Bruce in some continuities. Has there _ever_ been one where Bruce was raised as Clark Kent?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There's always something inherently hilarious about Clark being Bruce in some continuities. Has there _ever_ been one where Bruce was raised as Clark Kent?


I don't recall any stories of that kind.

----------


## Frontier

Doesn't the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh kinda count?

----------


## Stormcrow

August solicitation is here! Interesting that this is where Luke Fox ended up, but he fits with the technology themes quite nicely. I don't know much about the character, but is he really a "tech genius"? Last I heard he was a boxer.

Worth noting that Cameron Stewart did not provide the cover this time. David LaFuente is a very strong pick for this series, but I wonder if it'll be a permanent thing from now on.

And as far as the villain... I CALLED IT! Really excited about Velvet Tiger, she fits this run perfectly and I can't wait to see what Babs Tarr has done with her on the design front.




> But what's really interesting is the tease of a classic Batgirl villain we havent seen yet in the new continuity. Since Killer Moth already debuted on _Green Arrow_ and based on the facts provided that it's:
> 
> 1. Probably an unexpected one
> 2. One that fits in very well with what were doing
> 3. Babs is going to kill on the design front
> 
> I'm gonna take a guess and say that it's gonna be *Velvet Tiger*, who was the owner of a multi-national computer hardware manufacturer turned extortionist by accessing secrets through people's computer. _And she looks good doing it_.


*BATGIRL #43*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art by BABS TARR
Cover by DAVID LAFUENTE
On sale AUGUST 26  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T
Tech genius Luke Fox has brought his startup to Burnside, and he seems to be hiring all of Barbaras friendsbut not her! Unfortunately, someone else is setting up shop in Burnside as wellthe mysterious Velvet Tiger!

----------


## Badou

Luke Fox was a MMA fighter. The tech genius thing seems made up, but I quit following Batwing soon after Luke ousted David from the Batwing role and was painfully boring/generic in it.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Luke Fox was a MMA fighter. The tech genius thing seems made up, but I quit following Batwing soon after Luke ousted David from the Batwing role and was painfully boring/generic in it.


Same here, that's why I wondered. According to Comicvine he graudated early from MIT, though. So it seems he could have a lot in common with Barbara, I kinda like him as a potential romantic interest. Certainly a whole lot better than freaking Jason Todd or the vanilla guy she's been seeing in her book.

And I can't believe I missed the first time I looked at the solicits, but there's a new Batgirl of Burnside statue that's bigger than the B&W one and _in color_! Between these two and the Yvonne Craig statues from Diamond Select and Tweeterhead, I need to start saving...

----------


## Stormcrow

I just realized that Luke Fox joining the book means that Tiffany could come along as well, I really want to see her relationship to Babs and Batgirl develop.

And Babs Tarr posted a little preview for me on Twitter of her Velvet Tiger design since I figured out they were going to use her, and she's looking good!

----------


## Badou

> Same here, that's why I wondered. According to Comicvine he graudated early from MIT, though. So it seems he could have a lot in common with Barbara, I kinda like him as a potential romantic interest. Certainly a whole lot better than freaking Jason Todd or the vanilla guy she's been seeing in her book.


Or maybe Luke could be a good love interest for Frankie to fill out her character more if they don't want to keep Babs tethered too strongly to any love interest.

----------


## spark627

> Same here, that's why I wondered. According to Comicvine he graudated early from MIT, though. So it seems he could have a lot in common with Barbara, I kinda like him as a potential romantic interest. Certainly a whole lot better than freaking Jason Todd or the vanilla guy she's been seeing in her book.
> 
> And I can't believe I missed the first time I looked at the solicits, but there's a new Batgirl of Burnside statue that's bigger than the B&W one and _in color_! Between these two and the Yvonne Craig statues from Diamond Select and Tweeterhead, I need to start saving...


Really need to see this in person, not sure if I want it or not.

----------


## Babs

> Really need to see this in person, not sure if I want it or not.


How can you not want this?! It's the best Batgirl statue ever made! ...that and the new Animated Series one. I already preordered mine!

----------


## Stormcrow

New interview with Brenden Fletcher about Batgirl' future!

Really cool insight about what they were hoping to accomplish with the first arc.

----------


## Babs

> New interview with Brenden Fletcher about Batgirl' future!
> 
> Really cool insight about what they were hoping to accomplish with the first arc.


Awesome! I'm so happy Cameron and Brenden got the opportunity to make their vision of where Batgirl needed to go into a reality!

----------


## Godlike13

Super enjoyed the preview and its retro video game themed, Riddler like death trap this week. There just aren't enough death traps anymore.

----------


## joybeans

I'm kinda disappointed that she didn't use the Konami code :/

----------


## Maxpower00044

> I'm kinda disappointed that she didn't use the Konami code :/


100% was thinking it'd be the Konami Code, too. Haha

Awesome preview. This book is so good.

----------


## Rakzo

Just checked the most recent preview.

This continues to be a contender for best book of the year for me.

----------


## joybeans

It's a bold direction.

----------


## Stormcrow

I knew they were going to push Luke as a love interest for Babs, they actually have too much in common and he's the only other member of the Bat-Family that I can see her with besides Dick (go away, Jason). I really hope we see more of Tiffany, too!

Happy to see Velvet Tiger is getting an arc beyond one issue, too. I'm really looking forward to see how this team reimagines her.

Although I was expecting something related to the wedding (Alysa's?) hinted in the Sneak Peek.

*BATGIRL #44*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art and cover by BABS TARR
On sale SEPTEMBER 23 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Velvet Tiger’s got her claws around Luke Fox’s throat—and only Batgirl can save him!

----------


## The World

She's not dating that cop anymore?

----------


## RedQueen

This might be an odd observation but Barbara's eyes are noticably green on the cover when she's been always been drawn with blue in the title. I woder if the green eyes are meant to have something to do with Velvet Tiger's green eyes.

----------


## Badou

Was sort of hoping Luke might be paired up with Frankie. Since I do really want to see more minority relationships in comics where the two heroes/characters are the same race. That is so incredibly rare these days in cape comics. Also I'm not a fan of Luke at all after how badly they treated the original Batwing in the reboot. His character still feels very badly forced to me. Guess we will see how things turn out though.

----------


## Godlike13

As long as he doesn't lace up as Batwing, but instead the Batgirl team makes use of him and tries to develop him more as just Luke Fox, then im game. His Batwing did nothing for me, and to me fell into that trap of trying to basically be another Nightwing.

----------


## Stormcrow

> As long as he doesn't lace up as Batwing, but instead the Batgirl team makes use of him and tries to develop him more as just Luke Fox, then im game. His Batwing did nothing for me, and to me fell into that trap of trying to basically be another Nightwing.


I never read Batwing, so I'm much more interested in Luke Fox as a person as well and not so much as a super hero.

I wouldn't worry about it, though. This creative team neevr used Dinah as Black Canary in the previous arc because they didn't want it to become a team book, so it's likely the same case for Luke.

----------


## Punisher007

I read Batwing when David Zavimbe was wearing the cowl.  But then DC went out of their way to disrespect him and his fans, so I quit.  Anyway Barbara and Luke huh.  Well, we'll see how it goes.  That cover is admittedly kind of cool at least.

----------


## Stormcrow

Comicosity has a cool new interview with Babs Tarr! Go check it out!

They have the concept designs for Livewire as well the very first look at Velvet Tiger's new design, which is amazing. It makes much more sense for her to wear a dress rather than the orange jumpsuit, since she's more of an evil businesswoman. And she can rock pink indeed.

----------


## joybeans

I hope Tarr continues to do her own layouts. That 8-pager really stood out. Stewart's layouts felt pretty cramped at times.

----------


## Stormcrow

In Batgirl related new, the classic TV series Batgirl action figure is _finally_ being released for SDCC!

And Tweeterhead unveiled their upcoming statue too, which might as well be the greatest Batgirl statue ever created. Wish I could afford it!

----------


## joybeans

Babs Tarr had a Q&A on Twitter today. Basically, she loves drawing all the characters, Qadir is her favorite, ,Alysia has a big part to play, and there might be a love triangle coming up. Oh, and she ships DickBabs.

----------


## atomicbattery

Barbara's in-game character model for her Batgirl dlc in Batman:Arkham Knight can be seen in the video here at the 6:52 mark-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-lefe5qtFQ

I've found some of Rocksteady's female character designs problematic, but this Batgirl is outstanding.
Barbara looks gorgeous and hard. Can't wait for her dlc.

----------


## atomicbattery

For whatever reason, the link doesn't seem to work. If you search 

Batman Arkham Knight: All Character Bios

you'll find it.

----------


## joybeans

http://www.newsarama.com/24984-artis...rl-annual.html

Interview with Bengal on the upcoming Annual

----------


## joybeans

http://www.newsarama.com/25016-mingj...rl-annual.html

Looks like the Annual is going to be a big artist showcase, with Babs interacting with a lot of Batfamily folks

Bengal - Dick Grayson and Helena Bertinelli
Mingjue Helen Chen - Olive and Maps from Gotham Academy
David Lafuente - Spoiler
Ming Doyle - Batwoman

----------


## Stormcrow

Already knew Mingjue Helen Chen would be doing an Academy story in there, but nice to hear that David Lafuente and Ming Doyle are also on board. This is going to be one nice looking Annual!

I don't even know which of the stories I'm most excited about, it's every team-up I could ever ask for.

----------


## Shimbo

> Already knew Mingjue Helen Chen would be doing an Academy story in there, but nice to hear that David Lafuente and Ming Doyle are also on board. This is going to be one nice looking Annual!
> 
> I don't even know which of the stories I'm most excited about, it's every team-up I could ever ask for.


This will be the first post-Converge DCYou appearance of Batwoman! And Ming Doyle art! That's definitely the team-up I'm most excited for.

----------


## Stormcrow

Newsarama interview with David LaFuente over his involvement in the Batgirl Annual.

I like this take on Babs as the seasoned pro who's annoyed with Steph geeking out on her, sounds like fun!

----------


## atomicbattery

A story on Barbara's Batman:Arkham Knight DLC-

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/06...95fd3f4c607e6c

----------


## Stormcrow

The website for the DC Super Hero Girls is up now and here's Batgirl's description! I'm really not sold on the design, the "wings" look weird and the hoodie mask doesn't work. They should've just gone ahead and used the Burnside outfit, she already has the Doc Martens and the rest of the suit is very similar.

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

Batgirl's footage for the DLC part of Arkham Knight has been released.




Looks great. Better than the whole game itself. It's also a nice bonus to see classic Harley Quinn and Dick Grayson as Robin.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Batgirl's footage for the DLC part of Arkham Knight has been released.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great. Better than the whole game itself. It's also a nice bonus to see classic Harley Quinn and Dick Grayson as Robin.


That's Tim not Dick.

----------


## Babs

> That's Tim not Dick.


One can only hope that that is somehow a test model, and the real DLC will feature Dick. 
As if the pairing of Babs with Tim in Arkham Knight wasn't enough, Tim being Robin in a time when Babs was still Batgirl, before Arkham Asylum, turns the whole continuity of the series upside down. Nightwing even refers to Tim as "the new kid" in Arkham Knight. I know the Batgirl DLC is produced by WB. Montreal instead of Rocksteady, but it should not have been that hard for anyone with half a brain to put the Robins in their chronological order.

There's so many ways this DLC could have been handled better, imho. Now i feel like it's really only worth the gameplay, but as far as Arkham canon goes, it's best to just be ignored if this really is Tim and if it doesn't give us any logical explanation for his presence in this story. I mean, they already had the New 52 Dick Grayson Robin costume for Tim in Arkham Knight. They COULD have just used that one for this DLC instead of the Arkham Knight Tim Drake one.
Kwing did an angry video on this on youtube, and he said that they're probably shoehorned Tim Drake into this DLC because of their romance in Arkham Knight. (I still can't believe it when i type that down, Tim and Barbara o.O')

----------


## joybeans

Most likely, they just wanted to recycle Tim's character model and moveset.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Most likely, they just wanted to recycle Tim's character model and moveset.


Basically this.

You'd think that Jason Todd was the Robin at this point, considering the timeline, but Rocksteady has shown us that they're pretty lazy regarding anything not Joker related.

----------


## joybeans

Well, it's WB Montreal making this. It's also just a $10 DLC, so they're not going to put much work into. Which is peculiar, since this was supposed to be the "centerpiece" of a $40 season pass.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Well, it's WB Montreal making this. It's also just a $10 DLC, so they're not going to put much work into. Which is peculiar, since this was supposed to be the "centerpiece" of a $40 season pass.


No, the centerpiece is either the "Season of Infamy" DLC, or a yet to be revealed DLC.

Barbara can't be the centerpiece, not when:

1) Her DLC costs $6.99 by itself

2) Ra's, Mr. Freeze, and *Prometheus*, are all supposed by part of the same pack, which comes later.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> One can only hope that that is somehow a test model, and the real DLC will feature Dick. 
> As if the pairing of Babs with Tim in Arkham Knight wasn't enough, Tim being Robin in a time when Babs was still Batgirl, before Arkham Asylum, turns the whole continuity of the series upside down. Nightwing even refers to Tim as "the new kid" in Arkham Knight. I know the Batgirl DLC is produced by WB. Montreal instead of Rocksteady, but it should not have been that hard for anyone with half a brain to put the Robins in their chronological order.
> 
> There's so many ways this DLC could have been handled better, imho. Now i feel like it's really only worth the gameplay, but as far as Arkham canon goes, it's best to just be ignored if this really is Tim and if it doesn't give us any logical explanation for his presence in this story. I mean, they already had the New 52 Dick Grayson Robin costume for Tim in Arkham Knight. They COULD have just used that one for this DLC instead of the Arkham Knight Tim Drake one.
> Kwing did an angry video on this on youtube, and he said that they're probably shoehorned Tim Drake into this DLC because of their romance in Arkham Knight. (I still can't believe it when i type that down, Tim and Barbara o.O')


Arkham games got it's own continuity it follows. The Robin being Tim here throws my continuity senses out of whack too. The time between Origins and Knight is ten years. Within a decade Batman went through three Robins with Tim being in the role for at least 2+ years. Makes me wonder just how long Jason been Robin in this continuity. Even if the continuity go to hell, Tim being here at all is why I'm getting the DLC. I want to see more of him in the Arkhamverse.

I don't see what's wrong with the Tim/Babs ship. Is it really that bad? Can't be as terrible when some writer tried to make Jason/Babs work. 

Correction, Nightwing says he still thinks of Tim as the new kid.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Arkham games got it's own continuity it follows. The Robin being Tim here throws my continuity senses out of whack too. The time between Origins and Knight is ten years. Within a decade Batman went through three Robins with Tim being in the role for at least 2+ years. Makes me wonder just how long Jason been Robin in this continuity. Even if the continuity go to hell, Tim being here at all is why I'm getting the DLC. I want to see more of him in the Arkhamverse.
> 
> I don't see what's wrong with the Tim/Babs ship. Is it really that bad? Can't be as terrible when some writer tried to make Jason/Babs work. 
> 
> Correction, Nightwing says he still thinks of Tim as the new kid.


Seeing Babs interacting with a younger, and very irritable, Jason as Robin II would've been interesting. Also, maybe they could've made him have different combat compared to the others; like more brutal, and hard hitting, and using his fists only.

Instead, they're just rehashing the same Robin. Man, AK is just full of rehashing, isn't it?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Here's KWing's re-visioning of A Matter of Family. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7eXfUButKc

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Arkham games got it's own continuity it follows. The Robin being Tim here throws my continuity senses out of whack too. The time between Origins and Knight is ten years. Within a decade Batman went through three Robins with Tim being in the role for at least 2+ years. Makes me wonder just how long Jason been Robin in this continuity. Even if the continuity go to hell, Tim being here at all is why I'm getting the DLC. I want to see more of him in the Arkhamverse.
> 
> I don't see what's wrong with the Tim/Babs ship. Is it really that bad? Can't be as terrible when some writer tried to make Jason/Babs work. 
> 
> Correction, Nightwing says he still thinks of Tim as the new kid.


Speaking only for myself and outside of the new 52 continuity, I've always pictured Barbara being a good 10 years older than Tim. Picturing them in a relationship is just a little odd. At least with Jason, they have a similar history and are closer in age. Plus, they're opposites which are supposed to attract.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Speaking only for myself and outside of the new 52 continuity, I've always pictured Barbara being a good 10 years older than Tim. Picturing them in a relationship is just a little odd. At least with Jason, they have a similar history and are closer in age. Plus, they're opposites which are supposed to attract.


We very much agree here. While I don't like Jason X Babs (at least when written by Tynion), it's better, and far more conceivable than Babs X Tim.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Seeing Babs interacting with a younger, and very irritable, Jason as Robin II would've been interesting. Also, maybe they could've made him have different combat compared to the others; like more brutal, and hard hitting, and using his fists only.
> 
> Instead, they're just rehashing the same Robin. Man, AK is just full of rehashing, isn't it?


Jason teaming with Babs would have been interesting. Rocksteady did leave the door open for that in Arkham Knight audio tapes. He revealed himself to Barbara, protected her from receiving harsher treatment from Scarecrow and vented his feelings to her. A prequel with Jason as Robin is needed for the game.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Jason teaming with Babs would have been interesting. Rocksteady did leave the door open for that in Arkham Knight audio tapes. He revealed himself to Barbara, protected her from receiving harsher treatment from Scarecrow and vented his feelings to her. *A prequel with Jason as Robin is needed for the game.*


Or rather we should be getting a DLC story pack focusing on Jason's downfall confronting the Joker rather than hers. They're forcing the TKJ with Babs as the main character, and completely changing everything about the story, when they could've easily just done a story with her facing her brother instead.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Or rather we should be getting a DLC story pack focusing on Jason's downfall confronting the Joker rather than hers. They're forcing the TKJ with Babs as the main character, and completely changing everything about the story, when they could've easily just done a story with her facing her brother instead.


They completely changed A Death in a Family with how they handled Jason. If this is meant to be the game's TKJ I'm interested to see how it plays out with Barbara being a central figure in the story.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> They completely changed A Death in a Family with how they handled Jason. If this is meant to be the game's TKJ I'm interested to see how it plays out with Barbara being a central figure in the story.


They changed it, but it's not as drastically as they did here. It's got almost all the same beats as the original UtRH, or the movie version, except  few things.

For TKJ, Barbara is a civilian, and not a focus at all, but her she's taking Bruce's role, and, if it really is TKJ, then we're playing towards a horrific ending for her character. Sure, Bagirls fans are loving that we can finally as her, but I bet they'll rage just as hard to find out that the one time we get to play as her is the same time they get to replay their most hated event in Barbara's life. This can not end well.

At least I offered something that could've resulted in a better Batgirl story, and not a Joker/Batman story with Batgirl substituting for Batman in a story in which she's horribly, and utterly defeated.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> They changed it, but it's not as drastically as they did here. It's got almost all the same beats as the original UtRH, or the movie version, except  few things.
> 
> For TKJ, Barbara is a civilian, and not a focus at all, but her she's taking Bruce's role, and, if it really is TKJ, then we're playing towards a horrific ending for her character. Sure, Bagirls fans are loving that we can finally as her, but I bet they'll rage just as hard to find out that the one time we get to play as her is the same time they get to replay their most hated event in Barbara's life. This can not end well.
> 
> At least I offered something that could've resulted in a better Batgirl story, and not a Joker/Batman story with Batgirl substituting for Batman in a story in which she's horribly, and utterly defeated.


I think it's a drastic change from DitF since it substituted that story with Tim's from Return of the Joker. 

I'm willing to see what the story of the DLC plays out. From the flashback in the main game he had the vacation outfit when he shot her so that's still intact. I'm curious if it was done in retaliation to what happens in the DLC.

----------


## Stormcrow

October solicitation! Maybe a reunion with Dick, following up on the events from Grayson #12?

*BATGIRL #45*
Written by BRENDEN FLETCHER and CAMERON STEWART
Art and cover by BABS TARR
On sale OCTOBER 28 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
As Barbara’s friends gather for a major celebration, a familiar face from her past returns…and he’s got a lot to say about their future together!

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Did anyone else play the DLC today? I thought it was the best "episode" between hers, Jason's, and Harley's.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Did anyone else play the DLC today? I thought it was the best "episode" between hers, Jason's, and Harley's.


Well, wouldn't it be that by default? They actually treated her with respect, and gave her an episode that was longer than 10-15 minutes.

----------


## Godlike13

Why does Batgirl yet again not have a variant? Are they afraid of giving Batgirl a variant now?

----------


## Stormcrow

> Why does Batgirl yet again not have a variant? Are they afraid of giving Batgirl a variant now?


It does seem like Batgirl was taken out of the variant cover program after the controversy. It's a shame, as a Teen Titans GO! variant or another Monster one would've been cool. Hope they reconsider including it back eventually, just giving a little thought to the subject matter.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Why does Batgirl yet again not have a variant? Are they afraid of giving Batgirl a variant now?


Probably. Once you disgrace artists the way Rafael was, other artists take note, and are likely giving Batgirl some space.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Probably. Once you disgrace artists the way Rafael was, other artists take note, and are likely giving Batgirl some space.


Pretty sure it has nothing to do with artists not _wanting_ the work, it's just a marketing decision not to include the title in the variants program.

----------


## joybeans

It could very well be Stewart and Fletcher not wanting variants for their title.

----------


## Godlike13

Variants are averaging books 5-10k more in sales. So not having one hurts.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> It could very well be Stewart and Fletcher not wanting variants for their title.


Marketing department decide variants not the creative teams. They wouldn't have a say if the book gets one.

----------


## Badou

Maybe they aren't getting them because her book is still $2.99? Most of the books that get them seem to be $3.99.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> October solicitation! Maybe a reunion with Dick, following up on the events from Grayson #12?


I wonder will Dick ever approve her relationship with Luke.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I wonder will Dick ever approve her relationship with Luke.


He doesn't seem to be on the cover, though. Unless he's the guy in the far back.

I really hope he stays on the book and it wasn't just a two-issue guest appearance thing.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I think it's a drastic change from DitF since it substituted that story with Tim's from Return of the Joker. 
> 
> I'm willing to see what the story of the DLC plays out. From the flashback in the main game he had the vacation outfit when he shot her so that's still intact. I'm curious if it was done in retaliation to what happens in the DLC.


What did I say man? This Batgirl DLC was pretty underwhelming. The forcing of Tim, and the Joker. Jim getting captured, just cuz... Lackluster/unnecessary story.

No emotional connection (*should've been Jim Gordon Jr*), and Batgirl doesn't play all that differently from Batman either (Catwoman, Nightwing, Harley, Red Hood, and Robin all feel different from Batman).

Rocksteady and WB Montreal need to STEP IT UP with this freaking season pass. I'm not dropping $40 on this thing (yes, I know it's $6.99 on it's own, but I'm pretty sure we can only get challenge maps with the pass).

----------


## LP22

> I wonder will Dick ever approve her relationship with Luke.


The real question is will she even care.it's really stupid that she needs to be defined by a previous relationship from a previous continuity,same as lois and superman and barry and iris.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> What did I say man? This Batgirl DLC was pretty underwhelming. The forcing of Tim, and the Joker. Jim getting captured, just cuz... Lackluster/unnecessary story.
> 
> No emotional connection (*should've been Jim Gordon Jr*), and Batgirl doesn't play all that differently from Batman either (Catwoman, Nightwing, Harley, Red Hood, and Robin all feel different from Batman).
> 
> Rocksteady and WB Montreal need to STEP IT UP with this freaking season pass. I'm not dropping $40 on this thing (yes, I know it's $6.99 on it's own, but I'm pretty sure we can only get challenge maps with the pass).


I'm on PC so it's gonna be a long wait before I play it. I heard it was underwhelming. Sidequest being the same as Asylum with destroying Joker teeth and Jack in the boxes and being similar in length to Harley's Revenge. Definitely something I wouldn't pay a $40 season pass for.

----------


## sorboares

I'm a huge Barbara Gordon as Batgirl fan especially Gail Simones Batgirl. I'm not really into little happy immature  Batgirl of Burnside. Batgirl A Matter of Family though is perfection in my eyes.  The costume is outstanding and the way she is an amazing fighter as well as smart is perfect. I really wish we could get a live action movie with Batgirl looking like she does in A Matter of Family. I always wonder though why hasnt Batgirl ever been in any of the Batman animated movies like Son of Batman or any of them? She always gets left out which is so unfair. Now I know The Killing Joke is being made into an animated movie which is cool BUT I want to see Batgirl in a actual movie kicking some serious butt. Its not fair she is always left out! Also question: I saw on Ebay people selling Batman Arkham Knight comic called Batgirl Begins and the cover looks great. Does anyone know anything about this? Will there b more issues? Will Batgirl star in the Arkham Knight regular series?i want to see more of this Awesome Batgirl as she reminds me of Gail Simones Batgirl. I totally miss her,i would b wrapped if ww could get a Serious Batgirl Arkham Knight regular series but also keep the regular Baby Batgirl Of Burnside to keep those fans happy too.

----------


## atomicbattery

> I'm a huge Barbara Gordon as Batgirl fan especially Gail Simones Batgirl. I'm not really into little happy immature  Batgirl of Burnside. Batgirl A Matter of Family though is perfection in my eyes.  The costume is outstanding and the way she is an amazing fighter as well as smart is perfect. I really wish we could get a live action movie with Batgirl looking like she does in A Matter of Family. I always wonder though why hasnt Batgirl ever been in any of the Batman animated movies like Son of Batman or any of them? She always gets left out which is so unfair. Now I know The Killing Joke is being made into an animated movie which is cool BUT I want to see Batgirl in a actual movie kicking some serious butt. Its not fair she is always left out! Also question: I saw on Ebay people selling Batman Arkham Knight comic called Batgirl Begins and the cover looks great. Does anyone know anything about this? Will there b more issues? Will Batgirl star in the Arkham Knight regular series?i want to see more of this Awesome Batgirl as she reminds me of Gail Simones Batgirl. I totally miss her,i would b wrapped if ww could get a Serious Batgirl Arkham Knight regular series but also keep the regular Baby Batgirl Of Burnside to keep those fans happy too.


Agree on Matter of Family Batgirl- she is perfection. I need an Arkham Batgirl game. Or a least make her free roam in the Arkham Gotham.
Disagree on Burnside v. Simone Batgirl- Burnside Babs is smart, determined, positive. Simone Babs wallowed in darkness and depression.

I saw the 'Batgirl Begins' comic as well, and it's driving me a little crazy. That appears to be a six-page Comic-Con giveaway, but I saw art at comicartfans for 'Batgirl Begins #1', page NINE.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I like Burnside and Simone's Batgirl for what they are. Depressed Barbara made sense for that point of her life, and I really appreciated that Gail did research on PTSD to find the voice for Barbara. Burnside Batgirl is fun, and that's what the character needs at this point in her career.

----------


## Babs

Batgirl's bike gets a make-over! Here's Babs Tarr's early design!

CK9wa0TVAAAmXzu.jpg large.jpg

----------


## Stormcrow

> Batgirl's bike gets a make-over! Here's Babs Tarr's early design!
> 
> CK9wa0TVAAAmXzu.jpg large.jpg


Looks like it belongs with Jim's Batman suit, it needs to be purple! It's all good otherwise, Babs getting a cool bike was long overdue!

----------


## Babs

> Looks like it belongs with Jim's Batman suit, it needs to be purple! It's all good otherwise, Babs getting a cool bike was long overdue!


I dunno, i kinda like the dark grey + yellow lines. If the thing was purple it would be a little too close to Yvonne Craig's old bike from the TV show for my taste. Plus, this bike is still a modified electronic bike that Babs took from those biker ninja girls in #36.




> Baby Batgirl


Here's a recent sketch by Babs Tarr... Still think she's Baby Batgirl?  :Wink:

----------


## Godlike13

Hubba Hubba  :Embarrassment:

----------


## joybeans

And this is why Dick goes back to Gotham in #12.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I dunno, i kinda like the dark grey + yellow lines. If the thing was purple it would be a little too close to Yvonne Craig's old bike from the TV show for my taste. Plus, this bike is still a modified electronic bike that Babs took from those biker ninja girls in #36.


And she would be riding an exact replica of Yvonne Craig's old bike from the TV show if I had my way.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Hope the Jawbreakers return soon, they're my favorite new Batgirl villains.

----------


## Stormcrow

Brenden Fletcher on what we can expect from _Batgirl_ in the next few months:




> Batgirl? Also guest stars and big mike drops. And big life-changing stuff going on for Barbara Gordon and her friends. We’re going to see new heroes, new relationships, and a massive change in the status quo.
> 
> Batgirl is leaning into her 50th Anniversary year in 2016 and we plan to celebrate it with a bang.


Really excited to see what's planned for her 50th anniversary!

----------


## Babs

> Brenden Fletcher on what we can expect from _Batgirl_ in the next few months:
> 
> 
> 
> Really excited to see what's planned for her 50th anniversary!


New heroes? I really hope that means Frankie is gonna be the official new Oracle. I think it would be a brilliant move by the new team if they somehow found a way to have Barbara as Batgirl in a world together with an Oracle. Frankie Charles is a very new and fresh character, and i really hope that she's here to stay.

Now, as far as "a massive change in the status quo" goes, i have some hopes, but also fears about that. 

My hopes: Batgirl, Spoiler, and BlackBat as a team. Or some sort of Batgirl Inc? League of Batgirls? The communication between Batgirl and Spoiler in the Batgirl annual was so cute and fun, we could really use more of them as a team! If you combine that with Frankie as Oracle, and maybe adding Cassandra, Luke Fox, and Dick Grayson, you pretty much have a brand new team.

Judging by the preview text for Batgirl #45 though, it could be that the massive status quo change means that she's about to become Mrs. Barbara Grayson? 
Looking at where we're heading now. Alysia is getting married, and #45 says there's a big celebration and that Dick Grayson is coming to Burnside and has "plans" for him and Barbara's future. Putting 2 and 2 together, it sounds a lot like Batgirl#45 is Alysia's wedding, and Dick is going to propose in that issue. That's just my guess, going from what we know at this point. Babs Tarr has said several things. She said there is a love triangle coming up, and also that she's a major Dick&Babs. Now, we know there's a romance coming between Barbara and Luke Fox from the cover of #44, and we know Dick is coming to Burnside in #45. I've also read that, at a recent convention, the team Batgirl panel was also teasing the Grayson panel a lot.
Then again, Grayson's "plans" could also mean that he's the one setting up a new Titans type of team now that he's back in Gotham, and he wants Batgirl by his side for this. That would make sense considering this upcoming TV show is rumored to have Babs on the team.

My only real fear about the whole massive change in status quo would be that they somehow take Barbara out of the Batgirl role again, or do something really stupid to screw up the great thing they've got going with the title now.
It's not that i have any real problem with change in comics, but i do feel like DC hasn't always done things right with such massive changes to the status quo. 
I mean, look at how these recent years have gone with Batgirl as a title. First we had Cassandra holding the title for 8 years as Gotham's 2nd Batgirl after Barbara Gordon. Then after some trouble with character presentation of Cassandra, the Batgirl title goes to Stephanie Brown with Barbara Gordon as her mentor. Then within only 2 years, DC reboots it's entire continuity and gives the Batgirl title back to Barbara Gordon, saying that they're doing this because she's "the most recognizable Batgirl". Then 3 years later, the entire tone and art of book is changed from dark to light, and now after less than one year in, we're already talking about "a massive change in the status quo". I'm just not sure about that, until i know what change we're talking about here.

On the other hand, 2016 being the 50th anniversary of Batgirl would make it a pretty big disappointing anti-climax if their way of celebrating the character would be to say "Hey kids! in celebration of her 50th anniversary... She's not gonna be Batgirl anymore!" So i really hope they're not planning anything like that. Brenden Fletcher did say in another video interview a while ago that this big change will return Barbara to Gotham and put her in a position that will be new and unique and something that not everyone expects. So that at least sounds hopeful, and could mean that she's joining a team or setting up a team herself with characters like Dick and Frankie.

*edit

I also realized that Fletcher said in that video interview that Barbara would be moving back to Gotham this year, so maybe she and Frankie and others are creating some sort of base of operations? That's probably the big status quo thing, maybe, i don't know.

----------


## Stormcrow

I wouldn't worry about Babs nor being Batgirl after all the trouble they went to by having her back in the role and now recreating her whole book. I do believe a team-up with Steph and Cass is possible once _Batman and Robin Eternal_ wraps up.

As for the new heroes, didn't they tease Alysia and her girlfriend becoming vigilantes on issue #40?

----------


## joybeans

April seems to be "new status quo" month, with Batman #50 and Batman and Robin Eternal #26 happening in March. I think Fletcher hinted at Tiffany Fox being a key character, so it wouldn't be surprising if Batgirl #51 introduced something similar to what Simone wrote in the Futures End tie-in, a "Justice League" of Batgirls patrolling Burnside. It seems to be the trend, with Grayson introducing a "Justice League of spies", and Catwoman having an "underground Justice League of crime".

----------


## Stormcrow

> April seems to be "new status quo" month, with Batman #50 and Batman and Robin Eternal #26 happening in March. I think Fletcher hinted at Tiffany Fox being a key character, so it wouldn't be surprising if Batgirl #51 introduced something similar to what Simone wrote in the Futures End tie-in, a "Justice League" of Batgirls patrolling Burnside. It seems to be the trend, with Grayson introducing a "Justice League of spies", and Catwoman having an "underground Justice League of crime".


There's also the gang of Harleys and _We Are... Robin_ going on, so you might be right.

Where did Fletcher mention Tiffany? I've been wondering about her since Luke got announced as joining the book!

----------


## joybeans

I think it was Fletcher who mentioned that someone that Babs meets in the Endgame tie-in would be important going forward. I don't think Luke showed up in that issue, did he?

----------


## Babs

Isn't Tiffany like 6 or 7 at this point?

----------


## Stormcrow

> Isn't Tiffany like 6 or 7 at this point?


Wasn't she 15 in the Futures End issue? That'd make her around 10 at this point.

Edit: Just Googled "Tiffany Fox" and got a ton of results for a _porn star_. Guess I should've clarified I was looking for the DC Comics character...

----------


## Babs

> Wasn't she 15 in the Futures End issue? That'd make her around 10 at this point.
> 
> Edit: Just Googled "Tiffany Fox" and got a ton of results for a _porn star_. Guess I should've clarified I was looking for the DC Comics character...


LOL!!! I just had exactly the same experience googling her XD

Anyway:

Tiffany_Fox_Futures_End_001.jpg

Tiffany is confirmed to be 12 in Futures End, so she'd be 7 now.

Also, here's the interview i mentioned earlier:

----------


## Babs

Batgirl #46 BATGIRL & SPOILER!!!

BG_Cv46.jpg

----------


## Stormcrow

Brenden Fletcher said on Twitter that the Spoiler team-up might just be the start of something, so most likely we'll be seeing the League of Batgirls soon enough!

----------


## taylortexas

> Brenden Fletcher said on Twitter that the Spoiler team-up might just be the start of something, so most likely we'll be seeing the League of Batgirls soon enough!


I hope so! Batgirl might have been my favorite of the Future's End one shots, or at least very close to it. I'd be surprised if canon Babs ever becomes the Bane-esque Bete Noir but I would love to see her training Steph, Cass and Tiffany.

----------


## Babs

> I'd be surprised if canon Babs ever becomes the Bane-esque Bete Noir


I hope not. The League of Batgirls was awesome, but the Bete Noir stuff was just too freaky.

----------


## joybeans

For anyone who's been eyeing the Vol. 2 trade, has it always been listed on Amazon as a paperback? I know Grayson Vol. 2 was supposed to be a hardcover, but was recently changed to a paperback as well. It doesn't seem to make sense that DC would suddenly change these two series into paperback only. But then again, the official solicits haven't been released, so it's probably just placeholder information.

----------


## KurtW95

RIP Yvonne Craig  :Frown:

----------


## Andru

> For anyone who's been eyeing the Vol. 2 trade, has it always been listed on Amazon as a paperback? I know Grayson Vol. 2 was supposed to be a hardcover, but was recently changed to a paperback as well. It doesn't seem to make sense that DC would suddenly change these two series into paperback only. But then again, the official solicits haven't been released, so it's probably just placeholder information.


It was HC, but then switched to Paperback around the same time Grayson did.

----------


## Stormcrow

Francesco Francavilla shared a tribute to Yvonne Craig's Batgirl on Twitter.

And so did Cameron Stewart:

----------


## Andru

> Francesco Francavilla shared a tribute to Yvonne Craig's Batgirl on Twitter.
> 
> And so did Cameron Stewart:


Love both pieces!

----------


## Frontier

Both fantastic art pieces and tributes  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Stormcrow

Gail Simone was asked by Playboy of all places to share her thoughts about Yvonne Craig, it's a really heartfelt piece well worth a read.

A lot of other people salute her in this article from 13th Dimension, too.

----------


## Stormcrow

Batgirl figure from Funko  Vinyl Idolz coming out later this year! Not thrilled about her face sculpt but the pose looks nice. Wish they'd do a POP! Vinyl for her already as well...

----------


## Stormcrow

December's solicitation! This is by far my favorite Babs Tarr piece, such an amazing cover. I love that the bike is actually purple-ish, just wish the interior colorist would reflect that.

Interesting development about her mind failing her, maybe that's part of the big change in status quo? Looking forward to see her allies stepping up for her, wonder if that'll include Steph and Cass.

*BATGIRL #47*
Written by CAMERON STEWART and BRENDEN FLETCHER
Art and cover by BABS TARR
On sale DECEMBER 23 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Batgirl’s about to lose the greatest weapon in her arsenal…her mind is failing her! Is her ragtag group of allies enough to pick up the slack?

----------


## Frontier

I assume these "allies" will include Frankie, Luke, and Steph (because of their various team-ups), though not sure about Cass. Might depend on how much, if any, interaction they have over the course of Eternal.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

http://fav.me/d99mbsp

----------


## Babs

> Interesting development about her mind failing her, maybe that's part of the big change in status quo?


I hope not, but because of this issue's description i'm becoming more skeptical about this big status quo change. I find it already quite questionable that after less than a year we're already dealing with a "massive change of the status quo". 
Is this really what they think the Batgirl title needs at this point? Look at how the last decade has been. We've seen the title go from Cassandra to Stephanie, and 2 years after Steph got the book, it goes back to Barbara with the reason being specifically familiarity. We then spent 3 years under Gail Simone in a much darker much more violent book than the one before her, and then the book is revamped into a much lighter fun book, and now we're already going for a big status quo change again? I didn't really expect this from the current team. I really hoped that we could just have a couple of years of these fun Batgirl adventures without any of those ridiculously dramatic changes in the status quo. 
I mean, i expected it from DC comics in general, since it's pretty much all they can come up with these days, but i really felt like this team, Stewart, Fletcher and Tarr knew what the Batgirl title is supposed to be about, but right now with the whole status quo stuff, i'm feeling pretty uncomfortable.

My biggest fear is that this whole Batgirl of Burnside will turn out to be nothing more than a Trojan horse for DC's real agenda when it comes to Barbara Gordon.
This feeling started creeping up on me a while ago, when Babs Tarr revealed that the current Burnside run was only supposed to have lasted from #35 to 40, and that it was only because of the unexpected success of the revamp that DC decided to continue it post-convergence.
Now, how does Convergence portray Barbara Gordon? As Oracle. Now look at the plot of the first Burnside arc knowing that DC was planning this to be nothing more than that one arc. Just tweak the final chapter a little, and you have the algorithm as the "real" Barbara Gordon, and have her take her body back and: Bye bye Batgirl, hello Oracle.
I mean, the fact that they're pretty much constantly focus on how important Barbara's mind is in crimefighting, and that we're now getting ready for a status quo change already, combined with the fact that we'll get Stephanie Brown (replacement Batgirl?) in the book starting in November, makes me feel that Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr aren't team Batgirl at all, they're Team Oracle undercover. 
That could be why they're so damn ambiguous about Frankie's code name she's trying to tell Barbara, but keeps getting cut off in mid sentence.  
If you've been paying attention to Gail Simone's twitter, you may have noticed that she's been tweeting an awful lot about Oracle and BoP, and how Dan Didio sends her messages teasing stuff about that.
Then Batman V. Superman is coming out the same month as Batgirl #50, where i assume this big status quo will be taking place. Now what we've heard from rumors about that film, is that Jena Malone will be playing Barbara Gordon. Malone is 30, so it's pretty unlikely that she's playing Barbara as Batgirl, and since this film features a 45 year-old Batman, it seems far more likely that she's playing Barbara as Oracle at this point in the timeline. 
The way i see it, it seems like they're quickly turning Barbara back into Oracle in the comics in time for the release of Batman V. Superman, to align the comics with the cinematic universe.

Please feel free to tell me if i'm seeing it wrong, and i'm just being a little paranoid or something.

----------


## joybeans

I doubt it. DC has spent so much time cementing Barbara as THE Batgirl, and distancing Cass/Steph from the role. The big status quo change likely won't happen until around #50, giving the current status quo 16 issues. And the current direction has been too popular to revamp. My guess is that Fletcher and Stewart are moving towards the "League of Batgirls" direction, and we'll see some of Cass/Steph/Harper/maybe even Tiffany be part of Batgirl's cast.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

All I know is I'm not reading a Batgirl title that doesn't feature Babs as Batgirl.

----------


## James Hunter

I have a quick question for the people on this thread, is the current BATGIRL (i.e BATGIRL OF BURSIDE) anything like the Batgirl we were given in YOUNG JUSTICE: INVASION?  I only ask because I'm a fan of that Batgirl (if I can't have Oracle) so I was wondering if there were any similarities (I have read the ANNUAL but I'm hoping for more of an opinion).

Cheers.

James.

----------


## joybeans

Not really. This run focuses a lot on her personal life, her friendships, and her school life. I don't think Young Justice really did much with her other than just being Batgirl.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I have a quick question for the people on this thread, is the current BATGIRL (i.e BATGIRL OF BURSIDE) anything like the Batgirl we were given in YOUNG JUSTICE: INVASION?  I only ask because I'm a fan of that Batgirl (if I can't have Oracle) so I was wondering if there were any similarities (I have read the ANNUAL but I'm hoping for more of an opinion).
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> James.


What *joybeans* said, but just out of curiosity... what did you find so appealing about the _Young Justice_ version? I mean, she was all right and all, but she wasn't really developed much as I recall.

I did love the idea of her attending school with Dick, wish we could've seen more of that back then.

----------


## Frontier

> Not really. This run focuses a lot on her personal life, her friendships, and her school life. I don't think Young Justice really did much with her other than just being Batgirl.


I think they did show off Babs' smarts quite a bit, and the finale had her acting as mission control for the rest of The Team after Nightwing stepped down. The comic also developed her relationship with Dick.

----------


## batsgrayson

Batgirl #44 preview:

http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2015/09...er-23-batgirl/

Bengal is on art again, looks to be another fun issue.

----------


## Godlike13

> Batgirl #44 preview:
> 
> http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2015/09...er-23-batgirl/
> 
> Bengal is on art again, looks to be another fun issue.


This deserves it own thread  :Wink:

----------


## Divine Spark

> Batgirl #44 preview:
> 
> http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2015/09...er-23-batgirl/
> 
> Bengal is on art again, looks to be another fun issue.


I couldn't resist.

http://imgur.com/gallery/skqBO

----------


## Babs

> I couldn't resist.
> 
> http://imgur.com/gallery/skqBO



Meh. Not really my taste in humor.

----------


## Godlike13

Nor mine.
...

----------


## Divine Spark

What is funny was that several people in the comment section of the IGN review had the same exact thought.

Speaking of which...I have never seen so many comments on an IGN article. There are over 1200 of them, while the previous review had a whopping 57 comments.. That's more comments than the Prometheus review and I had flagged a lot of them...

----------


## batsgrayson

Yeah but a lot of those comments were incredibly racist.

----------


## batsgrayson

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/09/...mmy-palmiotti/




> Batgirl will be appearing, furher adding to the complcations of the new Superman/Batman dynamic. She suddenly finds herself interacting with a new Batman who she has a sneaking suspicion could be her father.


But she already knows Jim Gordon is Batman...

----------


## joybeans

Then that's a _very_ sneaky suspicion.

----------


## Babs

So, they were discussing what other shows Dc might make if Supergirl is successful, so here's my little edit of a picture of dutch actress Julia Batelaan in a leather jacket. Dear Warner Bros. and DC, please consider my pitch  :Big Grin: 

BatelaanOfBurnside.jpg

...and no, i don't agree with that Emma Stone casting idea. I like Emma Stone, but we've seen her in Spider-Man, and she's like 27 by now. I always look for an actor who is either the age or a few years younger than the actual character, so that the actor has a couple of years to grow into the role before outgrowing it, and i think, as lovely as Emma Stone is, unless she's playing Oracle in another show, i'd say she's a little too old for Batgirl at this point. Julia Batelaan will turn 19 next month, so she's pretty much the prefect age for a young Barbara/Batgirl show.

----------


## Lady Jane

I am reading this in TPB (so am behind most of you) and can't say but that I love this comic. 

Barbara is awesome and I love to read about heroine who is that clever. I find a lot of the points in the comic well done. It's not just a hero/heroine beating up baddies, but the villains actually add majorly to the story, often affecting her private life. The conflict with her father is very well done too.

It's the only DC series I have read so much of, but it's getting me into Batman as well.

----------


## RedQueen

Is there any news about babs appearing in Batman & Robin Eternal again? Or was it a one off appearence?

----------


## batsgrayson

I wouldn't get my hopes up... The writers seem to keeping a more restricted cast this time around. So that single appearance or something similar to it is probably all we'll get in the future.

----------


## RedQueen

> I wouldn't get my hopes up... The writers seem to keeping a more restricted cast this time around. So that single appearance or something similar to it is probably all we'll get in the future.


Shame. When they said the "whole gang's here" when they were in the batcave all I kept thinking was "didn't they forget someone?".

----------


## Confuzzled

> Shame. When they said the *"whole gang's here"*...


It's blasphemy to utter this in the absence of Babsgirl. You'd think the Bat-writers would know.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Shame. When they said the "whole gang's here" when they were in the batcave all I kept thinking was "didn't they forget someone?".


Yes, Batman and Robin.

----------


## Babs

Still not really comfortable about the whole "Massive change of the status quo for Babara Gordon" Brenden Fletcher has been bragging about these last few months. Reading the plot summary for #49, i can't say i'm digging where this appears to be going:

"To unravel the secret of Batgirl's bizarre new nemesis, her friends must travel to strange and uncharted territory: the inside of Barbara Gordon's spectacular mind!"

This sounds a little too close to the plot of their first arc. I also feel like they're starting to lay it on a little thick that Barbara is a genius. Like they're constantly pointing out how spectacular her mind is as a way to apologize to disgruntled Oracle fans that Barbara is running around as a younger Batgirl these days.

I'm not really sure where the book is going with this. The issues since Convergence have been fun, but looking at the sales, they were at 40k with #40, and have been dropping in sales, with #45 last October now below 30k.

----------


## RedQueen

> This sounds a little too close to the plot of their first arc. I also feel like they're starting to lay it on a little thick that Barbara is a genius.


I like the series itself but I still don't understand how they're building barbara up to be this big genius and yet she needs someone to do her own computer stuff and a tech guy. this is stuff a stephanie brown batgirl would need, not a barbara gordon batgirl. I do like Frankie as Oracle but Barbara Gordon herself shouldn't need an Oracle.

----------


## Godlike13

> Still not really comfortable about the whole "Massive change of the status quo for Babara Gordon" Brenden Fletcher has been bragging about these last few months. Reading the plot summary for #49, i can't say i'm digging where this appears to be going:
> 
> "To unravel the secret of Batgirl's bizarre new nemesis, her friends must travel to strange and uncharted territory: the inside of Barbara Gordon's spectacular mind!"
> 
> This sounds a little too close to the plot of their first arc. I also feel like they're starting to lay it on a little thick that Barbara is a genius. Like they're constantly pointing out how spectacular her mind is as a way to apologize to disgruntled Oracle fans that Barbara is running around as a younger Batgirl these days.
> 
> I'm not really sure where the book is going with this. The issues since Convergence have been fun, but looking at the sales, they were at 40k with #40, and have been dropping in sales, with #45 last October now below 30k.


Batgirl seems to do well digitally, but it hasn't had a variant since they pulled that Joker variant. And that hurts. Not gonna lie though, i wouldn't mind if digital Babs came back. I thought she was the best villain in this run so far. All the others have had cool looks, but disappoint with their cartoonish and cliche motivations and personalities.

----------


## batsgrayson

The fact that the New 52 had Barbara stay away from technology bugged since the start, since they are still portraying as being super smart it doesn’t make sense for her to have somebody else do her computer work/research for her.

I also have to agree with Godlike13, the series has lacked a strong villain ever since Convergence and I don't think the shorter arcs have helped in that regard. I don't know but the issues we get now feels more rushed too in terms of character work. This post-Covergence run, for me, hasn't quite mesured up to what we had before.

----------


## Aahz

> I also have to agree with Godlike13, the series has lacked a strong villain ever since Convergence and I don't think the shorter arcs have helped in that regard. I don't know but the issues we get now feels more rushed too in terms of character work. This post-Covergence run, for me, hasn't quite mesured up to what we had before.


Even Pre Convergence was not great in that department (apart from the Joker and maybe her brother), her main villain was for the most part Knightfall, who was hardly interesting.

----------


## RedQueen

> The fact that the New 52 had Barbara stay away from technology bugged since the start, since they are still portraying as being super smart it doesn’t make sense for her to have somebody else do her computer work/research for her.
> 
> I also have to agree with Godlike13, the series has lacked a strong villain ever since Convergence and I don't think the shorter arcs have helped in that regard. I don't know but the issues we get now feels more rushed too in terms of character work. This post-Covergence run, for me, hasn't quite mesured up to what we had before.


I agree. A lot feels like it's just going from to plot A to plot B. Like the rushed romance with Luke Fox for it to intercept the Dickbabs issue. Haven't met one person whose down for the Luke/Babs romance because all it took was like 2 issues. Kind of over the insta love. I'd rather a big will they/won't they thing that's drawn out because I prefer some development at least. The supporting cast getting a larger role is all well and good but they're taking away Babs's abilities so that they can shine. Wouldn't have a problem with it if the supporting cast if it didn't mean barbara's abilities had to suffer and yet she's steal hyped as a tech wiz. It's teased that Babs will have like a breakdown and the supporting cast will have to go into her "spectacular mind" and save her which is pretty much a metaphor for what has been going on. 

I still like the title but the narrative needs to be cleaned up. I'm hoping the big overhaul they've been teasing will bring in more cohesion to the title but for all I know Babs will have to play second fiddle to a story.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Still not really comfortable about the whole "Massive change of the status quo for Babara Gordon" Brenden Fletcher has been bragging about these last few months. Reading the plot summary for #49, i can't say i'm digging where this appears to be going:
> 
> "To unravel the secret of Batgirl's bizarre new nemesis, her friends must travel to strange and uncharted territory: the inside of Barbara Gordon's spectacular mind!"
> 
> This sounds a little too close to the plot of their first arc. I also feel like they're starting to lay it on a little thick that Barbara is a genius. Like they're constantly pointing out how spectacular her mind is as a way to apologize to disgruntled Oracle fans that Barbara is running around as a younger Batgirl these days.
> 
> I'm not really sure where the book is going with this. The issues since Convergence have been fun, but looking at the sales, they were at 40k with #40, and have been dropping in sales, with #45 last October now below 30k.


The new plot sounds more like Inside Out meets Inception (with a dash of Paprika) to me. Sounds awesome actually.

And what Godlike said about no variants = comparatively lower physical sales.

----------


## Stormcrow

I had high hopes for Velvet Tiger and Livewire, but I gotta say I was pretty underwhelmed by their storylines (and Livewire's origin was pretty confusing) besides being somewhat disappointed with the book as a whole since issue #41... I'm also not particularly excited about yet another villain coming from Babs' mind, but we'll see.

Wish they'd bring back the Jawkbreaker twins, cosplay bikers were a lot of fun and I do love seeing Babs in a bike.

----------


## robert

Now that the Batgirl book dropped out of the top 100 in November, it is time to end this Burnside episode, let it improve back to at least mediocre art and stories. How about Barbara Kesel, what's she doing these days?

----------


## batsgrayson

> Now that the Batgirl book dropped out of the top 100 in November, it is time to end this Burnside episode, let it improve back to at least mediocre art and stories. How about Barbara Kesel, what's she doing these days?


Yeah there was no Batgirl issue in November, so naturally it wasn't going to make the list.

----------


## Babs

> I don't like this Batgirl of Burnside. Stop making it!!1!


Entitled fanboys are the worst.

----------


## Babs

And the change in status quo is...

Batgirl gets her own team! 

1450140289774.jpg


In case anyone is wondering "Where is Cassandra?" Brenden Fletcher posted this on twitter:




> BATGIRL 50 cover by @babsdraws! 40 pgs of Batgirl, Frankie, Black Canary, Spoiler, Bluebird *& ???*


Now, i can only assume that the ??? means Cassandra. She's by far the most obvious candidate, if you ask me.

----------


## Cowtools

That sounds like an epic line-up!
I really want to eye the picture. The attachment isn't working for some reason.

----------


## Babs

> That sounds like an epic line-up!
> I really want to eye the picture. The attachment isn't working for some reason.


Is it working now? i re-uploaded it, and i can see it here.

----------


## joybeans

I'd like to see a Birds of Prey relaunch with the girls who don't have their own books (Steph, Harper, Cass). Perhaps get Batwoman (and maybe Helena B) involved as well. Written by Genevieve Valentine.

----------


## Frontier

Harper seems to really stick out in that lineup, if only because she hasn't appeared in the book (so far) or had that much meaningful interaction with Babs at this point.

----------


## Cowtools

> Is it working now? i re-uploaded it, and i can see it here.


Yep! Cheers




> Now, i can only assume that the ??? means Cassandra. She's by far the most obvious candidate, if you ask me.


It has to be Cass, since the B&R Eternal solicits play up the mystery of her fate.
I'd love it if it was Starling. But it's unlikely they'd tease the return of such a new character. Maybe she'll turn up as a villain?




> Harper seems to really stick out in that lineup, if only because she hasn't appeared in the book (so far) or had that much meaningful interaction with Babs at this point.


I can see her and Babs butting heads. "You're too reckless Bluebird!" "You're not the boss of me Batgirl!" Etc. (But better written obviously!)




> I'd like to see a Birds of Prey relaunch with the girls who don't have their own books (Steph, Harper, Cass). Perhaps get Batwoman (and maybe Helena B) involved as well. Written by Genevieve Valentine.


Yeah, this is pretty much all I could have hoped for, expect that Batwoman is still MIA. But soon.

----------


## James Hunter

> I'd like to see a Birds of Prey relaunch with the girls who don't have their own books (Steph, Harper, Cass). Perhaps get Batwoman (and maybe Helena B) involved as well. Written by Genevieve Valentine.


That would actually be kind of cool I have to agree, especially looking at that cover (I *like* Harper, I'm always happy to see Stephanie Brown and as long as Babs is not written as immature I'd be happy)

Cheers.

James.

----------


## batsgrayson

I was not expecting this... Honestly, I'm glad Batgirl is being introduced but these movies aren't my cup of tea.

----------


## Cowtools

> I was not expecting this... Honestly, I'm glad Batgirl is being introduced but these movies aren't my cup of tea.


Huh-whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....?

----------


## Rac7d*

SEE this is why I don't believe in Grayson ,  Barbra new look has been incorporated everywhere, figures, posters, DC supergirls, and now animated movies. nBut they can't do any thing out of the comics for Dick that is not in Nightwing form so it must be a temporary phase and Nightwing will return

----------


## Carabas

> I was not expecting this... Honestly, I'm glad Batgirl is being introduced but these movies aren't my cup of tea.


Needs more context...

----------


## Rac7d*

> Needs more context...


t means she will be a player in the next set of films  not counting the killing joke, unless it is eing adapted for this universe, since new 52 Barbra is only paralyzed for 1 years before the surgery

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> I was not expecting this... Honestly, I'm glad Batgirl is being introduced but these movies aren't my cup of tea.


I was getting tired of her being ignored in those movies, so I'm happy to see her show up.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> SEE this is why I don't believe in Grayson ,  Barbra new look has been incorporated everywhere, figures, posters, DC supergirls, and now animated movies. nBut they can't do any thing out of the comics for Dick that is not in Nightwing form so it must be a temporary phase and Nightwing will return


Grayson doesn't wear a costume and a mask,him trying to be more than another generic do gooder in tights should be appreciated. The spy route is a lock for any potential cinematic appearance.

Smart move by the animation department. Follow TKJ with a movie that has Babs in full glory,lol people are going to eat it up.

----------


## Aahz

From which movie is this clip?

----------


## batsgrayson

> From which movie is this clip?


Batman: Bad Blood. From what I've read it's literally at the end of the film.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> From which movie is this clip?


 Bad Blood.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Do we know any of the context surrounding her appearance?

----------


## Mate

Like they said, it is litteraly the end of the movie, everyone gather for the final shot, then they leave à la Spider-man at the end of every movie, swinging and flying across the city and what not. Then we see her come on the screen, roll credits. It was totaly unexpected but pretty cool ^^

----------


## joybeans

> Like they said, it is litteraly the end of the movie, everyone gather for the final shot, then they leave à la Spider-man at the end of every movie, swinging and flying across the city and what not. Then we see her come on the screen, roll credits. It was totaly unexpected but pretty cool ^^


Strange. Perhaps they're going for a Year One take on her next time around? Timeline would be really odd. Or judging by the trend of the films, it'll be a mash-up of Batgirl Year One and six other storylines.

----------


## Frontier

> I was not expecting this... Honestly, I'm glad Batgirl is being introduced but these movies aren't my cup of tea.


Dang, would've liked to have been surprised by this when I saw Bad Blood, but still pretty awesome  :Big Grin: .

I'm a little surprised they're going with the current look, though it might be a proto-Batgirl costume in the context of this universe. Something to look forward to for the next Batman movie  :Smile: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Grayson doesn't wear a costume and a mask,him trying to be more than another generic do gooder in tights should be appreciated. The spy route is a lock for any potential cinematic appearance.
> 
> Smart move by the animation department. Follow TKJ with a movie that has Babs in full glory,lol people are going to eat it up.


That doesnt mean People wont buy Dick grayson Figurines, like they would Black Widow. Him being a spy doesnt mean to be ignore in merchandise an advertisement. I do appreciate Grayson, but DC gives off vibes that it will be a temp position. Since thier website after 2 years still refers to him as nightwing in title billing.  I guess will see as far as the cinematic appearance, ( seely taking over Suicde squad is a good sighn) but who knwos

----------


## Docz

Saw this at my local comic shop and had to nab this, Babs Tarr's style translated really well into the statue.  Couldn't be more pleased with how this one turned out.

----------


## Stormcrow

At last, Batgirl of Burnside action figure! Including her bike!

----------


## ABH

Yeah, and it's awesome that she comes with an extra head and cape, for the Batcycle-riding action:

----------


## joybeans

And a cell phone

----------


## Stormcrow

You guys, there's also the Batman: Arkham Knight: Batgirl & Oracle 2-Pack!!! 

The ways things are I thought DC would never revisit Oracle for any merchandise, such a surprise.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

That's cool. I hope they give Batgirl an Arkham statue because I collect them.

----------


## ABH

> And a cell phone


But she won't text and ride, because she's a responsible motorist.




> You guys, there's also the Batman: Arkham Knight: Batgirl & Oracle 2-Pack!!! 
> 
> The ways things are I thought DC would never revisit Oracle for any merchandise, such a surprise.


Yeah, it's sort of crazy to think they're giving people Burnside Batgirl, New52 Batgirl, and Oracle, all at the same time. It's awesome for Barbara fans/collecters -- they're covering all the bases.

----------


## Babs

The action figure looks awesome!!!





> And a cell phone


Haters gonna hate.

----------


## Babs

> You guys, there's also the Batman: Arkham Knight: Batgirl & Oracle 2-Pack!!! 
> 
> The ways things are I thought DC would never revisit Oracle for any merchandise, such a surprise.


lol both versions of Batgirl have complete articulation, but Oracle has a solid form from her waist down, so nobody will put her in a standing position.

----------


## Stormcrow

BEST. THING. EVER.

*Batgirl #52* variant cover by Babs Tarr, inspired by Adam Hughes

----------


## RedQueen

Very pretty!!!

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Nnice would be Franky dying, Babs getting back to be Oracle, and Cass becomes Batgirl again, this time, for good.

----------


## Stormcrow

The Toy Fair news just keep coming! Now *Funko* has announced a new line of 5" vinyl figures named _Rock Candy_, featuring Batgirl both classic and Burnside versions!

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Nnice would be Franky dying, Babs getting back to be Oracle, and Cass becomes Batgirl again, this time, for good.


I'd drop the book so fast...

----------


## TheSupernaut

Am I the only one who misses her New 52 costume and actually prefers it to the DCYOU one?

----------


## The Kid

What does everyone think of Jena Malone possibly playing Barbara in BvS as she's rumored to be? She'd obviously only have a cameo in this movie but she could possibly play a big role in a future Batman solo

----------


## Nite-Wing

I think they spoiled that Batgirl is gonna be in the movie
She's played by Jena Malone probably a cameo but at least she exists

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> BEST. THING. EVER.
> 
> *Batgirl #52* variant cover by Babs Tarr, inspired by Adam Hughes


I'm in love! Too damn gorgeous. 

Though technically speaking I think it's impractical to wear piercings and let her hair flow like that if she wants to keep her identity secret. Hopefully that isn't the case going on in her book right now. Still great cover.




> What does everyone think of Jena Malone possibly playing Barbara in BvS as she's rumored to be? She'd obviously only have a cameo in this movie but she could possibly play a big role in a future Batman solo


Malone comes across more as Kate Kane than Barbara, but still I would be thrilled either way. I can just see Barbara having some side role as Oracle only to be an assistance to Batman. Heavily doubt her role will be any bigger than a cameo.

----------


## Babs

> Nnice would be Franky dying, Babs getting back to be Oracle, and Cass becomes Batgirl again, this time, for good.


Someone dying is never nice. Who the hell would say something like that?!

Nice would be Barbara, Stephanie, and Cassandra working together, and Frankie guiding them as Oracle. This kind of jealous whiny attitude about Barbara being the Batgirl instead of Cassandra is getting really really old.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Someone dying is never nice. Who the hell would say something like that?!
> 
> Nice would be Barbara, Stephanie, and Cassandra working together, and Frankie guiding them as Oracle. This kind of jealous whiny attitude about Barbara being the Batgirl instead of Cassandra is getting really really old.


I also do not understand the hate about Barbara being Batgirl. If anything, Cassandra can always resume her duties as Black Bat.

----------


## Stormcrow

Just announced as part of the upcoming Rebirth line, Babs will be headlining two ongoing series!

Launching in July, there's the *BATGIRL & THE BIRDS OF PREY REBIRTH #1* special followed by *BATGIRL #1* and *BATGIRL & THE BIRDS OF PREY #1*.

I can only assume Brendan Fletcher remains attached to both titles, with _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ acting as a follow up to _Black Canary_ and featuring the team assembled on the cover to _Batgirl_ #50. Hopefully Babs Tarr stays on _Batgirl_, too.

----------


## Godlike13

Two books for Babs. Nice  :Cool: . And ya BoP's roster will probably consist of Babs, Dinah, Harper, Steph, and Cass. Which doesn't sound too bad. It'll be a different type of BoP, old guard teaching new guard.

----------


## joybeans

Geoff Johns specifically mentioned Barbara, Dinah, and Helena in referring to the Birds of Prey. I wonder...

----------


## Godlike13

> Geoff Johns specifically mentioned Barbara, Dinah, and Helena in referring to the Birds of Prey. I wonder...


That is interesting.

----------


## jules

> Geoff Johns specifically mentioned Barbara, Dinah, and *Helena* in referring to the Birds of Prey. I wonder...


Yes, I noticed that. Of course, a lot of Dick's Gotham pals have met Helena now so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for her to meet up with them if she happened to follow him home. It does rather suggest that she's not busy with what's left of Spyral though.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I'm hoping BoP is *only* those three. Trying to turn the book into a random assortment of female characters is what hurt it last time.

----------


## batsgrayson

> I'm hoping BoP is *only* those three. Trying to turn the book into a random assortment of female characters is what hurt it last time.


I agree. Although, Lady Blackhawk was a great addition IMO.

----------


## klynn

> I'm hoping BoP is *only* those three. Trying to turn the book into a random assortment of female characters is what hurt it last time.





> I agree. Although, Lady Blackhawk was a great addition IMO.


Completely agree with both statements.

----------


## Godlike13

Thing is though if they use Harper, Steph, and Cass, and like i said make it the old guard teaching the new guard it takes the randomness out of it. Its can't just be the same old same old, thats no fun. They need to add some new blood to BoP. I don't want BoP to become like the Titans, where we just get nostalgia for nostalgia sake, but a the same time it should to be somewhat familiar.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I'm hoping BoP is *only* those three. Trying to turn the book into a random assortment of female characters is what hurt it last time.


I think that's because it felt forced and became way too crowded with non-Bat characters sometimes. I too preferred it when it was only Oracle and Black Canary, and later Huntress.

But the probable lineup with Babs, Dinah, Steph, Harper and Frankie (plus maybe Cass?) has developed organically and they all work very well together, so it's going to be a very different iteration than before. Interested to see if they're using Helena as well, she'd be the one that's still mostly an outsider to the group.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

They can always expand the roster later. Right now they need to establish who the Birds of Prey are and what they're about. After they've solidified the "old guard," they can add in the noobs.

Also, I fully support Zinda's inclusion, but I'm not sure she still exists.

----------


## Cowtools

> I think that's because it felt forced and became way too crowded with non-Bat characters sometimes. I too preferred it when it was only Oracle and Black Canary, and later Huntress.
> 
> But the probable lineup with Babs, Dinah, Steph, Harper and Frankie (plus maybe Cass?) has developed organically and they all work very well together, so it's going to be a very different iteration than before. Interested to see if they're using Helena as well, she'd be the one that's still mostly an outsider to the group.


Agreed. The old trio of Babs, Dinah and Helena worked because of those characters' history in the pre-52 DCU. Now with a new history, it doesn't make sense to jam them together inorganically just to try and recapture the old feeling. Steph, Harper and Cass would be great editions to BoP because they've already developed organic relationships with Babs and each other.

----------


## RedQueen

I don't think Birds of Prey should be a mentor group. I don't think the girls would be comfortable going on missions with a bunch a newbie minors.

I could see Cass joining though cause her story really could fit in well with the other girls especially since pre New 52 it was her who had the closest relationship with one of the members. Harper and Steph will make it too crowded. Harper is a tech genius which they already have in Barbara and Stephanie is just relatively new to it all so I don't see her joining a team that's way out of her league without some serious retconning of her lack of skills.

I really don't like it when Birds got to crowded. It failed in the New 52 and it will probably will again if they go that route. Keep it to the core three and bring in Cass (Geoff Johns mentioned her specifically in that interview) because she could bring in some good stories and then you get a good formula.

Birds of Prey was globe trotting and covert missions, but making it a mentor program will make it lose the spark that it had in the first place.

----------


## Aahz

> I could see Cass joining though cause her story really could fit in well with the other girls especially since pre New 52 it was her who had the closest relationship with one of the members. Harper and Steph will make it too crowded. Harper is a tech genius which they already have in Barbara and Stephanie is just relatively new to it all so I don't see her joining a team that's way out of her league without some serious retconning of her lack of skills.


They had Steph and Harper allready in one of the last Batgirl Books, Steph was trained by Eiko and is Harpers room mate, and they are trying to push Harper and her friendship with Cass so hard in B&RE.

I'm pretty sure both will appear in Birds of Prey. 

I could also see Strix return, but she is maybe to similar to Cass.

----------


## RedQueen

> They had Steph and Harper allready in one of the last Batgirl Books, Steph was trained by Eiko and is Harpers room mate, and they are trying to push Harper and her friendship with Cass so hard in B&RE.
> 
> I'm pretty sure both will appear in Birds of Prey. 
> 
> I could also see Strix return, but she is maybe to similar to Cass.


They might be side characters but Geoff Johns definitely made the emphasis on the core trio. They'd probably be side characters at most and there's been some acknowledgement in the past by DC that the magic is between the trio so I wouldn't expect anything full time on the teenage part.

And I agree, I could see Strix in it. Depending on the age range DC is gunning for the team members she might be a more plausible option than Cass.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I would much rather Canary kept her solo title and the Birds gone to Steph, Cass and Harper with Batgirl acting as a mentor type.  (But I wont complain about getting a BoP series if it is good no matter who stars in it pretty much...as long as it is good.)  The title of Batgirl & the Birds of Prey is a little odd though.

To Batgirl herself, I hope they keep the current costume.  I wasn't thrilled with it at first, but it really has grown on me quite a lot and I actually like it.  I dont think I mind that Burnside may not be around much, except that I will miss Babs having a regular supporting cast.

----------


## jules

> The title of Batgirl & the Birds of Prey is a little odd though.


To me it says that they're doing a stealth double ship on Batgirl, but making half of the issues a team book. It'll be interesting to see if both are by the same writer, or how close the links are if two different ones. The Birds could certainly become part of Babs's supporting cast, depending on the setup.

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> Just announced as part of the upcoming Rebirth line, Babs will be headlining two ongoing series!
> 
> Launching in July, there's the *BATGIRL & THE BIRDS OF PREY REBIRTH #1* special followed by *BATGIRL #1* and *BATGIRL & THE BIRDS OF PREY #1*.
> 
> I can only assume Brendan Fletcher remains attached to both titles, with _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ acting as a follow up to _Black Canary_ and featuring the team assembled on the cover to _Batgirl_ #50. Hopefully Babs Tarr stays on _Batgirl_, too.





> Geoff Johns specifically mentioned Barbara, Dinah, and Helena in referring to the Birds of Prey. I wonder...


Oh my gosh! Thanks so much for releasing this news! This made my day! A BoP Batgirl styled book with Barbara, Dinah, Helena Bertinelli, Cassanda and Frankie as the Oracle would just be a must buy for me. Keeping Fletcher and Tarr on the book would guarantee a fun time.

I have loved Dinah's new introduction in Burnside, and Babs and new earth Helena were a fun duo when they worked together in the annual. I would love a new fresh take on Simone's legendary take.




> They can always expand the roster later. Right now they need to establish who the Birds of Prey are and what they're about. After they've solidified the "old guard," they can add in the noobs.
> 
> Also, I fully support Zinda's inclusion, but I'm not sure she still exists.


Has new earth Zinda been introduced yet? I know there was a Lady Blackhawk introduced but it was never specified if it was Zinda. If not, a BoP book would be the perfect starting point to introducing her. Whether people like it or not, besides the core 3, Zinda helped make the BoP as iconic as they are today.

----------


## spark627

It is a shame Gail is not writing this.

I am hoping that we get the true Helena Bertinelli back (I like the new 52 one, but I want the original) and we get Dinah back to her pre 52 origin/personality etc, now that the JSA exists, there is no reason she can't go back to being the real DLL.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> It is a shame Gail is not writing this.
> 
> I am hoping that we get the true Helena Bertinelli back (I like the new 52 one, but I want the original) and we get Dinah back to her pre 52 origin/personality etc, now that the JSA exists, there is no reason she can't go back to being the real DLL.


I pretty much agree with all of this. I liked the idea of Black Canary being a maternal legacy.

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> It is a shame Gail is not writing this.
> 
> I am hoping that we get the true Helena Bertinelli back (I like the new 52 one, but I want the original) and we get Dinah back to her pre 52 origin/personality etc, now that the JSA exists, there is no reason she can't go back to being the real DLL.


I think we just need to let this Helena develop. I am sure in time she will break away from Spyral and take on the Huntress mantle for herself. I do agree that we should be focusing on Dinah Laurel Lance instead Dinah Drake, since most casual readers are more familiar with her than her mother.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Man, I hope BATGIRL doesn't change too much, I just started reading it.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Just started reading Volume 2 of the current Batgirl of Burnside.

Using the whole Jim Gordon as Robocop really is harming the iconic feel of this run. I felt like this BATGIRL could easily be a "go to" for new reader's but Robocop is kinda killing that. OG Commissioner Gordon would have been much more interesting in this vein. 

Still dig this, though!

----------


## batsgrayson

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/...omics-rebirth/

Thoughts?

----------


## Avi

> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/...omics-rebirth/
> 
> Thoughts?


Wasn't it implied that she was also going on a globetrotting adventure? Perhaps she will stay there for a while, make connections etc. 

If it's really a new team I would actually like it, the writers version and my version of her just don't go together, but I would still want her to keep the supporting cast. The forget that it ever happened route is never good.

----------


## batalia

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/...nd-claire-roe/

Really disappointed that DC wants to continue influence of Burnside with Batgirl by keeping her ugly outfit. Also her new writer said she loved the last run plus this endorsment from steward just leaves me defeated. 
Steward: I really recommend you pick up Hope and Rafa’s Batgirl when it’s released. They’re really committed to continuing what we’ve been doing.

Never cared for BOP and it seems stupid Barbara cares about her oracle past id. Why can't this character just move away from this shit.

----------


## dick_wingnut

Im just happy I dont have to see Babs Tarr art now when the monthly solicitations come out.

----------


## Godlike13

Im super surprised that Fletcher, Stewart, or Tarr isn't anywhere to be seen on any of Batgirl's coming books. Pretty disappointing about that, and i don't like that they're taking her out of Burnside. But holy crap Rafael Albuquerque! Thats a frigging win.

----------


## Godlike13

This book is going to look pretty.

----------


## Factor

Am I the only one who's sad Frankie probably won't get to become Oracle?  :Frown:  I'll miss the current team, but I hope the new ones are good.

----------


## Godlike13

> Am I the only one who's sad Frankie probably won't get to become Oracle?  I'll miss the current team, but I hope the new ones are good.


No, im sad that a lot of the Burnside stuff seems to be getting dropped.

----------


## btmarine23

I'm really looking forward to both of these books.

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> Am I the only one who's sad Frankie probably won't get to become Oracle?  I'll miss the current team, but I hope the new ones are good.


I am sad about it too since she's the perfect candidate for the role. I do hope Frankie gives a lot of aid to Barbara's team in the new BoP book though!

----------


## Godlike13

Looks like there will be some friction with the birds.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

I have to say im a little disappointed with the direction of the books

for one i totally didnt expect BoP to be with Helena and Dinah instead of Blue Bird, Spoiler and Frankie

and Batgirl going to china feels...
random
thats pretty much the word, just random.
is not like taking a new direction, is like taking a break, and i dont feel this book needed one.

----------


## Vworp Vworp

> I really recommend you pick up Hope and Rafas Batgirl when its released. *Theyre really committed to continuing what weve been doing.*


Bad characterisation and mediocre writing?

Man, I hope not!

----------


## Confuzzled

> I have to say im a little disappointed with the direction of the books
> 
> for one i totally didnt expect BoP to be with Helena and Dinah instead of Blue Bird, Spoiler and Frankie
> 
> and Batgirl going to china feels...
> random
> thats pretty much the word, just random.
> *is not like taking a new direction, is like taking a break, and i dont feel this book needed one.*


It is a natural progression: freshly out of college 20-something goes backpacking across foreign continent.

It's just that... it feels too early to graduate from Burnside. I thought we'd be staying there for at least another couple of years.

----------


## Tony

I'm actually excited for the new creative team on Batgirl.  Didn't like anything from the new 52 so the change up brings hope.  I know the art is amazing.

I'm not sure Birds of Prey works for me but I'll give it a shot too.  What Huntress is this?  Related to Batman, mob daughter, or spy?

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> I'm actually excited for the new creative team on Batgirl.  Didn't like anything from the new 52 so the change up brings hope.  I know the art is amazing.
> 
> I'm not sure Birds of Prey works for me but I'll give it a shot too.  *What Huntress is this?*  Related to Batman, mob daughter, or spy?


It's Helena Bertinelli from the Grayson series. She is the director of spy organization Spryal and apparently has a mob vendetta. Have no idea if this version grew up as a mob daughter.

----------


## Tony

groovy.

I enjoy Spy stuff.  What kind of capers go on in BoP?

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> It is a natural progression: freshly out of college 20-something goes backpacking across foreign continent.
> 
> It's just that... it feels too early to graduate from Burnside. I thought we'd be staying there for at least another couple of years.


I really wouldnt count that as natural progression
its is still more like taking a vacation than anything else

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Looks like there will be some friction with the birds. 
> <image>


I must say I love the facial expressions in this pic. Barbara's pouting face is really cute. I appreciate artists who can draw more than the usual Angsty Scowl™

----------


## sorboares

I really was so happy to hear Babs Tarr and Fletcher were leaving Batgirl because they ruined her in my eyes.  The costume is horrible and Babs art I cringed every time I saw it. Sad to hear that the new team will follow in the foot steps of Brendan Fletcher. 
I was also very happy to hear about Batgirl and the Birds of Prey in hopes it would be a more serious and adult book like Gail Simones Batgirl run. I was hoping Batgirl would even get her Gail Simone costume back in the BOP series as well.

----------


## Babs

> I really was so happy to hear Babs Tarr and Fletcher were leaving Batgirl because they ruined her in my eyes.  The costume is horrible and Babs art I cringed every time I saw it. Sad to hear that the new team will follow in the foot steps of Brendan Fletcher. 
> I was also very happy to hear about Batgirl and the Birds of Prey in hopes it would be a more serious and adult book like Gail Simones Batgirl run. I was hoping Batgirl would even get her Gail Simone costume back in the BOP series as well.


I find the diversity in opinions about who Barbara Gordon "really" is pretty funny. But when i see anyone who says Fletcher, Stewart, and Tarr "ruined" her, that just feels like this is coming from a very biased group of readers, because all i see from my point of view is a team that worked very hard (much harder than Gail Simone during the best days of the run) to give the reader a lighter take on Batgirl for a new audience, but also one that has many key influences in herself from several popular iconic incarnations. 
You can see how they worked stuff from Yvonne Craig's Batgirl in there, but also many elements from the Bruce Timm/Animated Series version of Babs. There are elements from Batgirl Year One, and even character traits and abilities from Oracle. Babs Tarr's art clearly is heavily inspired by that of Bruce Timm.

Batgirlzzzzz.jpg

See, when Gail Simone fans start saying Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr "ruined" her, you have to look back to the complaints many people had about her run. Many people felt that DC comics was pushing their books to be as dark and serious as possible, mimicking Christopher Nolan's gritty realism, and that Batgirl was being pushed by editorial into a very grim, dark, dramatic and also overly violent tone extremely hard, that felt like nothing anyone who loved Barbara as Batgirl from before the new 52 either expected or wanted. 
When you look at Gail Simone's run and compare it to earlier incarnations of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl inside and outside the comics, this was nothing like any Barbara/Batgirl from any show or comic that came before it. 

Look, normally i wouldn't go out and post negative stuff about Gail Simone's run like this, but this kind of extreme reaction towards what Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr's run, and the flat out bashing of Tarr's art by some people really asks for it, when it's coming from Simone fans.
Normally i feel like anyone should just enjoy the versions of a character they like, and ignore the ones they don't like. Personally i thought Simone's run was awful in both art and writing, and that the run was completely tone deaf to ANY other incarnation of Barbara Gordon, even the preFlashpoint Oracle/Barbara Gail herself wrote for years. This Batgirl felt like she was written for BatMAN fans, imho, not BatGIRL fans. Simone's run made Cassandra Cain feel like a cheerful party Batgirl by comparison, and Cass was supposed to be the darker and more serious take on Batgirl in the late 90's and early 00's.

----------


## klynn

In Gail Simone's defense, editorial controlled the tone of the book.  She's often spoken about how she wasn't allowed to let Barbara have friendships with any other heroes including Dinah and how she wanted to lighten the tone.  It's ironic that they allowed another team to do that (Simone has hinted about being hurt by their decision to lighten the tone but not keep her to do so).  I don't think she was happy with editorial's choice to return Barbara to Batgirl, but she did her best to be a team player and still retain the best parts of Barbara's personality.  It was a no-win situation for her.

----------


## RedQueen

I'm really over DC using this "dinah drake" nonsense and actually use Dinah Laurel Lance whom Babs had the friendship with. By the history DC has given for the New 52, DInah hasn't even been born yet.

----------


## Aahz

> It's Helena Bertinelli from the Grayson series. She is the director of spy organization Spryal and apparently has a mob vendetta. Have no idea if this version grew up as a mob daughter.


Its mentioned in Grayson that she is the daugther of a Mafia Boss (iirc an Italian not an Itallio-American as before), but it didn't have any real influence on the plot.

Im a little bit sceptical about the new Birds of Prey, it has the same problem as the new 52 Titans. They have technicaly the same characters as the original, but they changed the characters so much that the original dynamic doesn't work anymore. Sop it will allways feel kind of wrong for the fans of the original. Going for a fresh team (like the one from Batgirl 50) would have been a better idea imo.

----------


## Godlike13

It seems to have made an impression on Johns. Which normally I would be skeptical and say he's just trying to generate sales hype, but he said similar things about SOB when DC You was rolling out and he was spot on about that book. So I'm excited. 

I was really expecting a Harper, Steph, and Cass team that I thought the Batgirl book was alluding to. And honestly, while a number of those characters don't really do anything for me, I thought that that would have been a fitting way to put a new new spin on a BoP relaunch. 
At the same time though I like the new Helena and I am interested to see how she's going to fit in here. I think if they try to create a new dynamic with the characters as they are now, rather then try to recapture the dynamic they had in the past, they'll be ok.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I loved Simone's take on Batgirl, but I've also enjoyed the Burnside era. I don't see why it has to be a contest.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to the BoP relaunch and the new Batgirl team.

----------


## batsgrayson

Is anyone familiar with the new Batgirl writer?

----------


## Carabas

Maybe.

What is his/her name?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Maybe.
> 
> What is his/her name?


Hope Larson. I think this might be her first ever work for a mainstream publisher.

----------


## Carabas

> Hope Larson. I think this might be her first ever work for a mainstream publisher.


She looks rather spectacular but very non-mainstream (for a comicbook fan's definition of mainstream).

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> Its mentioned in Grayson that she is the daugther of a Mafia Boss (iirc an Italian not an Itallio-American as before), but it didn't have any real influence on the plot.
> 
> Im a little bit sceptical about the new Birds of Prey, it has the same problem as the new 52 Titans. They have technicaly the same characters as the original, but they changed the characters so much that the original dynamic doesn't work anymore. Sop it will allways feel kind of wrong for the fans of the original. Going for a fresh team (like the one from Batgirl 50) would have been a better idea imo.


Ah I see. Thanks. Since Bertinelli is mainly a supporting character in Grayson, I don't think we will ever get her history in that series. That's why I am glad she is finally out on her own as a main character in a team series. Her and Barbara were pretty fun together in that Batgirl annual.




> I'm really over DC using this "dinah drake" nonsense and actually use Dinah Laurel Lance whom Babs had the friendship with. By the history DC has given for the New 52, DInah hasn't even been born yet.


I think the new universe is going without the mother/daughter Canary relationship and just combined the two (Dinah Drake Lance). I do agree that Laurel Lance is the Canary that received the most development and exposure to the general public pre-Flashpoint. Would've been much easier to just have it be her than Drake.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> I was really expecting a Harper, Steph, and Cass team that I thought the Batgirl book was alluding to. And honestly, while a number of those characters don't really do anything for me, I thought that that would have been a fitting way to put a new new spin on a BoP relaunch.


To me, thats the weirdest thing of all out of this new book, you see Batgirl teaming up with Harper and Steph and then Harper and Cass on B&RE and its kinda like the whole plot writes itself.and then this happens. its not that is wrong but it literelaly came out of left field from me.




> At the same time though I like the new Helena and I am interested to see how she's going to fit in here. I think if they try to create a new dynamic with the characters as they are now, rather then try to recapture the dynamic they had in the past, they'll be ok.


The new Helena is such a radically different character than the original that this might be either great or absolutely terrible.
Its hard for me to see a middle ground with someone who just a few months ago was the big leader of an spy organization.

----------


## Aahz

> The new Helena is such a radically different character than the original that this might be either great or absolutely terrible.
> Its hard for me to see a middle ground with someone who just a few months ago was the big leader of an spy organization.


At least with Helena being the ex-leader of Spyral, and the current Barbara the dynamic of the original is completly inverted. If they don't change Barbaras charcter again like they did it for Burnside.

----------


## caleb.superboy

I agree with this whole heartedly. You nailed it.

----------


## billee0918

> I loved Simone's take on Batgirl, but I've also enjoyed the Burnside era. I don't see why it has to be a contest.
> 
> Anyways, I'm looking forward to the BoP relaunch and the new Batgirl team.


Saaaame here!

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

Is anyone else hoping we get more of Frankie in the upcoming Batgirl and BoP books? As others have said before, I think she would make a great Oracle type of figure with the BoP with her computer and tech genius.

----------


## t hedge coke

I'm seeing mainstream, mainstream, and I get it, but just to clarify, that's a superhero mainstream. Atheneum, FSG, and the New York Times are far more mainstream than DC, just not superhero mainstream (where we treat DC's _imprints_ as if they're small, unknown indie niches).

----------


## Lady Jane

I am still catching up and at the Gail Simone run and really like it. 

Especially Batgirl having her own rogues gallery that actually tie into her own story (not just villains of the week) and actually mean something. 

If I look at the art that came out later, I must say I'm a bit apprehensive, though I will still try it out.

----------


## ImprobableQuestion

I just saw the recent behind the scenes vid for the Killing Joke movie. I like that they're opening with Barbara in costume before the main plot starts, it feels like it might give ehr more agency in the story. It's gonna be pretty gutting having Tara Strong back in the role for it though.

While we're on the subject, I got Arkham Knight last week (not finished yet, no spoilers!) and found their version tasteful enough, in that they skipped the taking-clothes-off part. Joker's a font of awful wheelchair and spine puns though.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Did you get the "A matter of Family" DLC? It's a must for a Batgirl fan.

----------


## Pohzee

> Did you get the "A matter of Family" DLC? It's a must for a Batgirl fan.


Minus the relationship that cannot be named  :Wink:

----------


## batsgrayson

> Minus the relationship that cannot be named


*shudders*

----------


## sorboares

The trailer for the Killing Joke looks absolutely amazing and giving Barbara Gordon a bigger part in it as Batgirl is such a great idea. They made her look perfect, I cant wait for this!

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> At least with Helena being the ex-leader of Spyral, and the current Barbara the dynamic of the original is completly inverted. If they don't change Barbaras charcter again like they did it for Burnside.


I really dont think they will change Barbara
nothing really hints a change of tone on the book but this is ofcourse keeping in mind that Simone-Barb and Burnside-Barb couldnt not possibly be more different, one is quite literally a victim fueled monster and the other one your girl next door.

The biggest fear that I have with the change is the lost of the world-building that Burnside did
even though there were some recurring characters Simone´s Barb was pretty much all alone with her misery while the cast of characters of Burnside is very colorful and interesting not to even mention memorable.
It just would be a huge shame to never see Frankie again for example like what happen with Starling....
...
do anyone remember Starling?
the coolest character on BoP who just simply draw the short straw
I miss her.
=(

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Minus the relationship that cannot be named


Was it ever explained why the game developers chose that unspeakable relationship?

----------


## byrd156

> Was it ever explained why the game developers chose that unspeakable relationship?


Someone must of said "Robin and Batgirl like each other right?" and the writers were like that works for me.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

It's altogether possible. The story and atmosphere were pretty weak in Arkham Knight. Its a pity though because Batgirl is amazing in this game and _he_ is hideous. Why does he look older than Bruce?!

----------


## byrd156

> It's altogether possible. The story and atmosphere were pretty weak in Arkham Knight. Its a pity though because Batgirl is amazing in this game and _he_ is hideous. Why does he look older than Bruce?!


No idea but I gotta disagree on the weak story or atmosphere of the game's story. While Asylum was the strongest story wise of the Arkham games I thought AK was very well done. I like all the stories of all the Arkham series.

I wish that the Bat-family was used more in the game but I'm still happy that they were used at all. One day the whole family will be used in live-action and will be used to their full potiental in a game and in film.

----------


## godisawesome

I'm an "Origins has the best story" guy myself, and I think the issue with Babs's storyline and the unfortunate twists pit on Tim Drake are all related to the main conceptual issue with AK's story: the game's plot was intent on going full power-fantasy audience-surrogate with Batman, and thus the main plot and some of the subplots were so incredibly at odds with each other and with previous set-up in the series.

For instance, I'm convinced the only usage of the Bat-family to the main story writer was as hostages and targets for the bad guys, as can be surmised through the well executed but somewhat nonsensical Babs-suicide hallucination, which remains the only major plot important hallucination not involving the Joker, and the fact that Tim gets used as a Diablo-ex-machina to get Batman to surrender. Both are moments that could have been much better handled with more competent characterizations of the two, but the goal of the writer was to have the entire story revolve around Batman, to such an extent that nobody, not even Nightwing, seems capable of doing a successful job throughout the night. And AK's Batman has very little detective skills in the game, because the story doesn't really want creative problem solving as much as it would lie, to pretend it does.

And you can tell that the main story was constructed with only a cursory review of the characters; Babs is wearing a Flying Grayson's necklace and Tim's previous bios all construed him as a very fresh newcomer. But suddenly, in AK, Tim's suddenly a veteran who's been doing this since less than a month after Jason disappeared (!) and is so old that the follow-up comics kind of scrambled to make him a high school teacher as a day job, since they'd been operating under conventional Batfamily rules until this happened. And the fact that Nightwing is contained entirely to a sidequests that seems to suffer a narrative disconnect from the rest of the series implies that the main writer had no idea that Dick was the Robin famous for the Batgirl relationship.

I will say that the AK DLC does showcase the kind of Babsgirl that I've thought shoul have been the status quo for the New 52; a character who mixes Batgirls martial prowess with Oracle's computer skills.

----------


## Frontier

> Someone must of said "Robin and Batgirl like each other right?" and the writers were like that works for me.


And "Robin's the quippy fun guy," which explains a lot about Tim's characterization in that game.

----------


## Badou

> Was it ever explained why the game developers chose that unspeakable relationship?


WB doesn't really value Nightwing as a property very much. So to them it didn't make sense to give him any focus in the game and it was just easier to use Robin in all the expected roles. Nightwing isn't the brand Robin is. I mean they have Batman, Joker, Robin, Batgirl, Harley, Jim, Red Hood, and all the other Batman villains to focus on so Nightwing falls to the wayside.

----------


## ImprobableQuestion

> Did you get the "A matter of Family" DLC? It's a must for a Batgirl fan.


I've got the whole kit and kaboodle, so I'll get to it in time. Not sure which relationship, it seems like they're trying to ship her with as many Robins as they can. Dick's the one in the DLC right?

I tKe the Arkham games as issues of the Batman ongoing. The other characters exist, but it's the solo adventures of Batman at the end of the day.

----------


## Frontier

> I've got the whole kit and kaboodle, so I'll get to it in time. Not sure which relationship, it seems like they're trying to ship her with as many Robins as they can. Dick's the one in the DLC right?


Nope. It's Tim as Robin.

----------


## Pohzee

> Nope. It's Tim as Robin.


Which contradicts even the timeline that they set with _Asylum_ and _City_.... Tim was the new Robin in _City,_ despite Barbara being Oracle by _Asylum._ 

I just put on the New 52 suit for Robin and tried to ignore the Tim related dialogue from the DLC.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> Nope. It's Tim as Robin.


I did not knew this happen
How!?
Why?
Who is to blame here?

----------


## Rac7d*

That was the best issue of batgirl yet
They should make a 2 season cartoon of her Burnside run

----------


## byrd156

> Which contradicts even the timeline that they set with _Asylum_ and _City_.... Tim was the new Robin in _City,_ despite Barbara being Oracle by _Asylum._ 
> 
> I just put on the New 52 suit for Robin and tried to ignore the Tim related dialogue from the DLC.


Actually Tim was Robin during Asylum he just wasn't allowed to go out much due to what happened to Jason a few years earlier. By the events of City Tim was able to actually go out and be Robin more.

I thought that at first so I spent way to much time looking at the Arkhamverse lore to figure out this universe.

----------


## Pohzee

> Actually Tim was Robin during Asylum he just wasn't allowed to go out much due to what happened to Jason a few years earlier. By the events of City Tim was able to actually go out and be Robin more.
> 
> I thought that at first so I spent way to much time looking at the Arkhamverse lore to figure out this universe.


But Tim is the newbie Robin in Asylum yet Barbara seems comfortable in her role as Oracle by this point, as if she has been Oracle a while. And if Tim is a newbie Robin who can't go out much, then it seems weird for him to be out fighting the Joker without Batman so much earlier than Asylum (though I know that Batman wasn't allowed on the rig during the DLC.) I have no definate proof of any hard timeline, but it seemed to me when I was playing through the games as though Tim was a rookie but Barbara was experienced in her role as Oracle.

----------


## batsgrayson

From Albuquerque's Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BD4JzQRko7Q/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDx2kaskozq/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDrEO7WEo0h/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDhF9bbko37/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDcExMrko7F/

This book is going to look great.

----------


## Babs

> That was the best issue of batgirl yet
> They should make a 2 season cartoon of her Burnside run


Agreed. I mean, obviously Babs Tarr's art is heavily inspired by Bruce Timm, so just get Timm's DCAU style for the animation, and it would rock!

----------


## OBrianTallent

> From Albuquerque's Instagram:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BD4JzQRko7Q/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDx2kaskozq/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDrEO7WEo0h/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDhF9bbko37/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDcExMrko7F/
> 
> This book is going to look great.


At least this book is going to look darn good!  Love his style!

----------


## The World

> From Albuquerque's Instagram:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BD4JzQRko7Q/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDx2kaskozq/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDrEO7WEo0h/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDhF9bbko37/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BDcExMrko7F/
> 
> This book is going to look great.


No small amount of irony in Albuqerque being on this book, really looking forward to this run with him and Larson.

----------


## Cmbmool

Is anyone else a bit surprised that DC is still adamant in having Babs being Oracle in the new 52, when the current Batgirl team tries to recon the whole _Killing joke_ scenario from DC history and making it like it was originally intended as an out of timeline story, or is it just me ?

----------


## RedQueen

> Is anyone else a bit surprised that DC is still adamant in having Babs being Oracle in the new 52, when the current Batgirl team tries to recon the whole _Killing joke_ scenario from DC history and making it like it was originally intended as an out of timeline story, or is it just me ?


I honestly think that was a blunder of wording from those writers. They're new to comics and they refer back to things that shouldn't have happened and I visibly saw geoff Johns twitch a bit when they talked like he wanted to correct them. And they referred to Dinah as DInah Drake when the latest writers have been adamant on referring to her as Dinah Lance.

I could be looking to much into though. I believe Oracle is a new rendition of the character.

----------


## godisawesome

I'm kind of torn here on the Oracle thing: on the one hand, I'd hope the solo book writers would be in charge of such continuity decisions, or at least have oversight, but at the same time, I don't think Oracle should _ever_ have been erased from Babs's history. I took it as being an aggressively regressive move for the character, and as an effective demotion in her skills, threat level to villains, and place as a "power" of the Bat-family, particularly when they decided to keep some variation of her wheelchair time in continuity.

To me, the events of the Killing Joke on Babs were horrendous, but the Oracle move by Ostrander had, in my opinion, evolved the character to a far better level than her last few years as Batgirl. She was a expert at something that even Batman wouldn't really get an understanding of for a few years, managed a large successful team as its sole authority for quite a while, cherry tapped dictators and gangsters to devastation to fund herself, and still kicked ninja ass in a wheelchair! 

Then her initial New 52 incarnation seemed like she was less of a threat to villains than all three of the grown Robins. And that was honestly a little pathetic. It wasn't intentional, since there was a wilderness thing for a while as to how all Batfamily members were supposed to be portrayed, but I despised seeing my favorite Bat-redhead being turned into a third-stringer just so someone could try and do a status quo I hadn't been born to see.

----------


## batsgrayson

> Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
> Art by CLAIRE ROE
> Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
> Variant cover by BEN CALDWELL
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> WHO IS ORACLE Chapter One: Batgirl and Black Canary are together again, working a case that strikes right at the heart of their partnership! Someones uncovered the greatest secret Barbara Gordon ever kept: her time as Oracle, the most powerful hacker on the planet. And not only do they know her secret, theyre using her name to sell dangerous information to criminals! Now one of those deals has brought some major heat to Gotham CityHelena Bertinelli is out of Spyral, wearing the hood of the Huntress, and making mafia blood run in the streets! Everything you thought was hidden will be revealed if the Oracle has their way
> On sale JULY 20  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T






> Written by HOPE LARSON
> Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Beyond Burnside Chapter One: The Batgirl you know and love is going global with Eisner Award-winning and New York Times best-selling writer Hope Larson (A Wrinkle in Time, Goldie Vance) and all-star artist Rafael Albuquerque (AMERICAN VAMPIRE). In order to up her game, Babs travels to Japan on a quest to train with the most elite modern combat masters of the East. But when a chance meeting with an old friend puts a target on her back, Batgirl may need to use her new skills to solve a deadly mystery.
> On sale JULY 27  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Godlike13

So her time as Oracle was a "secret". I can dig that.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I honestly think that was a blunder of wording from those writers. They're new to comics and they refer back to things that shouldn't have happened and I visibly saw geoff Johns twitch a bit when they talked like he wanted to correct them. And they referred to Dinah as DInah Drake when the latest writers have been adamant on referring to her as Dinah Lance.
> 
> I could be looking to much into though. I believe Oracle is a new rendition of the character.


As I recall, all of the  creative teams in the New 52 have acknowledged Barbara's injury and recovery, and her time as Oracle.  In that anything was being put up for question, it was the specific events surrounding the injury and recovery.  Or, to put it another way, I don't think there has ever been a suggestion that Barbara was not injured in an encounter with the Joker, or that she fought crime as a super computer hacker during her (pretty brief) time out of costume.  Rather, the occurrence of the sexual assault and torture aspects of that encounter have been opened to doubt.

----------


## Bukdiah

Did you guys like the New 52 run? I heard Gail Simone's run was pretty divided and people often sad it was often too dark for no reason. I can see that being a valid reason of not liking it. Then issue 35 came around and it really felt like a completely different book. So colorful, light hearted in tone, and villains that didn't really seem all that threatening. Felt very CW TV Show to me.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Did you guys like the New 52 run? I heard Gail Simone's run was pretty divided and people often sad it was often too dark for no reason. I can see that being a valid reason of not liking it. Then issue 35 came around and it really felt like a completely different book. So colorful, light hearted in tone, and villains that didn't really seem all that threatening. Felt very CW TV Show to me.


I thought it was decent. Which for Gail Simone's take on her favorite character...is a bit of a let down.  Gail has gone on record saying she wanted to inject more light-hearted tones into her stories but were continually rejected by editorial.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I thought it was decent. Which for Gail Simone's take on her favorite character...is a bit of a let down.  Gail has gone on record saying she wanted to inject more light-hearted tones into her stories but were continually rejected by editorial.


Heh. After hearing stuff like that, I wonder how tied a writer's hands are when they are on a title. I actually didn't know that she wanted to do lighter stuff. It seemed like every other issue someone had to get maimed lol. I thought the art was cool though.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Heh. After hearing stuff like that, I wonder how tied a writer's hands are when they are on a title. I actually didn't know that she wanted to do lighter stuff. It seemed like every other issue someone had to get maimed lol. I thought the art was cool though.


Writers work for the company, as represented by editorial, and if they forget that they tend to get reminded on very clear terms.  Simone herself has pointed that out, saying that this is an aspect of the business that fans don't appreciate.  James Robinson has often said the same thing, as has Greg Rucka.  Indeed, Rucka has very recently said that he thinks writers should be guided by the demands of the characters but must always keep in mind that the day will come when they are brought up short and reminded that the characters belong to the company and their demands are not sufficient to override corporate imperatives.

----------


## Timber Wolf-By-Night

Granted, I dropped _Batgirl_ for as much financial reasons as for just being disappointed in and fed up with the New 52 in general, and I dropped it before Gail Simone's tenure ended.  But unless it was revealed after I dropped it, I don't recall Barbara, in the New 52, having had a career as Oracle.  Yes, there was much mention of her being shot and crippled, and of her being miraculously healed through the efforts of doctor or surgeon from another country...but there was no mention by anybody, least of all Barbara herself, of her having spent any time as Oracle in the New 52 (especially in what was then the "five year timeline" DC insisted upon).  Again, if this was later changed by Simone or the Fletcher/Tarr team, I'm unaware of it and would be grateful to be corrected.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Writers work for the company, as represented by editorial, and if they forget that they tend to get reminded on very clear terms.  Simone herself has pointed that out, saying that this is an aspect of the business that fans don't appreciate.  James Robinson has often said the same thing, as has Greg Rucka.  Indeed, Rucka has very recently said that he thinks writers should be guided by the demands of the characters but must always keep in mind that the day will come when they are brought up short and reminded that the characters belong to the company and their demands are not sufficient to override corporate imperatives.


Can you link the source? I'm trying to google it right now. It seems like it'd be an interesting read.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Can you link the source? I'm trying to google it right now. It seems like it'd be an interesting read.


For Rucka?  It was actually a Word Balloon podcast that can be found at this site:

http://wordballoon.blogspot.com/

Warning, it's looooooooong, so allow yourself plenty of time before starting it.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Did you guys like the New 52 run? I heard Gail Simone's run was pretty divided and people often sad it was often too dark for no reason. I can see that being a valid reason of not liking it. Then issue 35 came around and it really felt like a completely different book. So colorful, light hearted in tone, and villains that didn't really seem all that threatening. Felt very CW TV Show to me.


I really enjoyed Gail's run. All of the Bat-titles were pretty dark at the time anyways, so that didn't really bother me.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> Did you guys like the New 52 run? I heard Gail Simone's run was pretty divided and people often sad it was often too dark for no reason. I can see that being a valid reason of not liking it. Then issue 35 came around and it really felt like a completely different book. So colorful, light hearted in tone, and villains that didn't really seem all that threatening. Felt very CW TV Show to me.


To me Batgirl by Gail Simone is her worst run ever made and by far the worst interpretation of the character. It is so bad that Barb needs to have a restraining order against Gail Simone.
she is just not human, she is a monster which makes the Future End story kind of the definitive ending of that version, she becomes a venom filled creature driven by revenge and not justice, thats what she becomes because thats who she is inside, a broken victim.

The tone was overly dark but I dont think that was the problem, you can create a dark and grim comic and make it interesting and good, a lot of the Batman books are very dark, the problem was that its themes were full of misery, Barb is just there to suffer and suffer and suffer more.

The point that really broke me was the origin of Knightfall who is a villain who dates a guy and the guy ends up killing her entire family, she asks him why and he responds ¨I did it for the lulz¨ later Knightfall pretty much goes insane and does this very crazy plan to blame herself for the murder to plan a revenge later which culminates on her capturing and torturing the guy and then creating a team of anti-heroes who trap, maim and kill petty thieves and whoever they think as ¨evil¨ because *LULZ!!*
It is not well written or thought out. 
Finally by far the worst character on the book is Barb´s mother, an absolute non-redeemable waste of space.
with all the monsters and horrors that appear on this book Barb´s mom is the worst because the way the is written is suppose to make her the victim when she abandons her own family and her daughter twice just because she is a giantic idiot who was afraid of a little kid, it is intentionally written to make you feel sympathy for her and it ends up so incredibly disgusting for me that really makes me just want to see the character die horribly burn alive. 

now the Burnside Batgirl is completely something else
it is not just the tone shift, is more about the change of focus of the character.
for example on Gail´s Batgirl, Barbara Gordon barely exists.
she doesnt have any job or studies of any kind(they are mention just not important).
she has no friends except her own roommate who is barely in the book to begin with.
she doesnt have any hobbies or private time, there is no insight on her personal life and the only introspection to the character is the Killing Joke which is repeated at least 7 times.
Gail´s Batgirl is only about Batgirl.

But Batgirl of Burnside is All about Barbara Gordon.
and Barbara Gordon is interesting, she smiles in this book, she has friends, she has a career(which is never mentioned once on gail´s run) she is proactive and intelligent but doesnt need a pat in the back for every little idea that she has and she is flawed but the flaws just make her human and they dont hammer the character down.
when Burnside Batgirl makes a mistake she actually learns from it and comes back and try again better, when Gail´s Batgirl makes a mistake someone loses a foot or a train gets bombed.

The story just simply creates an interesting world for the character and lets the character develop on it organically and even though I agree that her villains on Burnside arent very threatening, they are at least challenging and I think thats more important to make the story interesting and just make you care about Barb.
It reminded me a lot of Batgirl Year One with a little bit of Scott Pilgrim, It is just a very nice book.

----------


## Carabas

> I really enjoyed Gail's run. All of the Bat-titles were pretty dark at the time anyways, so that didn't really bother me.


The opressing darkness bothered me. And it also bothered Gail Simone, who really wanted to write a much lighter version of Babs.

----------


## batsgrayson

I liked Gail Simone's run. Yes, it was dark but that enforced by editorial and not Gail who wanted a lighter tone. Looking back I even enjoyed it much more than Burnside, especially after the Convergence break. 

To be honest I hope the new run can really focus on Barbara as character, that it finds her voice again. To me that is something that was missing in Burnside.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I liked Gail Simone's run. Yes, it was dark but that enforced by editorial and not Gail who wanted a lighter tone. Looking back I even enjoyed it much more than Burnside, especially after the Convergence break. 
> 
> To be honest I hope the new run can really focus on Barbara as character, that it finds her voice again. To me that is something that was missing in Burnside.


I thought Burnside Batgirl had some really cool two page spreads like illustrating how her photographic memory works, etc. I felt the stories were lacking though. Pretty to look at, but I felt the stories were shallow and the villains were kinda weird (motorcycle ninja girls lol)

Also, could you link the source where editorial was forcing her to write the darker tone?

EDIT: Found this link that addresses editorial and Gail Simone
http://dccomics.about.com/od/dccomic...ail-Simone.htm

----------


## Cmbmool

> To me Batgirl by Gail Simone is her worst run ever made and by far the worst interpretation of the character. It is so bad that Barb needs to have a restraining order against Gail Simone.
> she is just not human, she is a monster which makes the Future End story kind of the definitive ending of that version, she becomes a venom filled creature driven by revenge and not justice, thats what she becomes because thats who she is inside, a broken victim.
> 
> The tone was overly dark but I dont think that was the problem, you can create a dark and grim comic and make it interesting and good, a lot of the Batman books are very dark, the problem was that its themes were full of misery, Barb is just there to suffer and suffer and suffer more.
> 
> The point that really broke me was the origin of Knightfall who is a villain who dates a guy and the guy ends up killing her entire family, she asks him why and he responds ¨I did it for the lulz¨ later Knightfall pretty much goes insane and does this very crazy plan to blame herself for the murder to plan a revenge later which culminates on her capturing and torturing the guy and then creating a team of anti-heroes who trap, maim and kill petty thieves and whoever they think as ¨evil¨ because *LULZ!!*
> It is not well written or thought out. 
> Finally by far the worst character on the book is Barb´s mother, an absolute non-redeemable waste of space.
> with all the monsters and horrors that appear on this book Barb´s mom is the worst because the way the is written is suppose to make her the victim when she abandons her own family and her daughter twice just because she is a giantic idiot who was afraid of a little kid, it is intentionally written to make you feel sympathy for her and it ends up so incredibly disgusting for me that really makes me just want to see the character die horribly burn alive. 
> ...


I have nothing but respect for Gail Simone and her work. In fact, last night I tweeted her asking why haven't she shown how Oracle was functioned in the new 52 and she stated that Babs is Oracle and couldn't understand my question.

Basically it just this: Despite having two runs and brief explanations on the recovery we never did get the story of how much of an impact Babs made as Oracle before her recovery and change back into Batgirl.

Now I don't blame Gail Simone nor do I blame the other creative team of the Burnside Batgirl. They played the hand that they've been dealt with. 

Still, if DC wanted to keep some fans on their titles and have us believe in this whole shorten timeline within the new 52, then maybe a few explanations could be in order for a few issues instead of it being one-shots or done in one stories.

I don't think Gail is to fully blame for her run on new 52 Batgirl. Knowing her love for the character and enjoyment of writing her she tried the best she could. 

Isn't that all we can ask for ?

----------


## Bukdiah

Wow, well said. You're right in the fact that we got to see tons of Barbara and her life outside the costume in Burnside. That's something I didn't realize with Gail's run, probably because I liked when she was in costume doing stuff. Also, I agree with you about the team of anti-heros that maimed people. I think there was a bear trap in an issue.It was over the top limb cutting at times lol.

----------


## K. Jones

> To me Batgirl by Gail Simone is her worst run ever made and by far the worst interpretation of the character. It is so bad that Barb needs to have a restraining order against Gail Simone.
> she is just not human, she is a monster which makes the Future End story kind of the definitive ending of that version, she becomes a venom filled creature driven by revenge and not justice, thats what she becomes because thats who she is inside, a broken victim.
> 
> The tone was overly dark but I dont think that was the problem, you can create a dark and grim comic and make it interesting and good, a lot of the Batman books are very dark, the problem was that its themes were full of misery, Barb is just there to suffer and suffer and suffer more.
> 
> The point that really broke me was the origin of Knightfall who is a villain who dates a guy and the guy ends up killing her entire family, she asks him why and he responds ¨I did it for the lulz¨ later Knightfall pretty much goes insane and does this very crazy plan to blame herself for the murder to plan a revenge later which culminates on her capturing and torturing the guy and then creating a team of anti-heroes who trap, maim and kill petty thieves and whoever they think as ¨evil¨ because *LULZ!!*
> It is not well written or thought out. 
> Finally by far the worst character on the book is Barb´s mother, an absolute non-redeemable waste of space.
> with all the monsters and horrors that appear on this book Barb´s mom is the worst because the way the is written is suppose to make her the victim when she abandons her own family and her daughter twice just because she is a giantic idiot who was afraid of a little kid, it is intentionally written to make you feel sympathy for her and it ends up so incredibly disgusting for me that really makes me just want to see the character die horribly burn alive. 
> ...


Of course, and this isn't so much a criticism from me as it is a reason to exist and keep reading, Burnside Batgirl is essentially just Stephanie Brown Batgirl but with red hair and some nice Sherlockesque visualizations of Babs' famous photographic memory (well, and stories that actually factor in her mind-palace and the actual logistics of her broken-but-repaired spine injury.)

But that kindred spirit existed in the BQM Batgirl run too, which featured a brilliant and bright Oracle at the very same time she was undergoing ultragrimdark Snyderian horror family melodrama in Detective as James Junior turned back up. And anyway, that kindred spirit is why every time Spoiler turns up in the Batgirl book it's some of the better issues. Pluck and determination, damn it!

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Burnside Batgirl is not Stephanie Brown. Steph did not invent fun.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> Of course, and this isn't so much a criticism from me as it is a reason to exist and keep reading, Burnside Batgirl is essentially just Stephanie Brown Batgirl but with red hair...


never once i saw Spoiler on Batgirl of Burnside
they are just very different because...




> and some nice Sherlockesque visualizations of Babs' famous photographic memory (well, and stories that actually factor in her mind-palace and the actual logistics of her broken-but-repaired spine injury.)


...that exactly.
there is a completely different approach on both of them.

If I had to compare
Barb´s Batgirl was kind like Tim Drake´s Robin while Steph´s Batgirl was Nightwing.




> But that kindred spirit existed in the BQM Batgirl run too, which featured a brilliant and bright Oracle at the very same time she was undergoing ultragrimdark Snyderian horror family melodrama in Detective as James Junior turned back up. And anyway, that kindred spirit is why every time Spoiler turns up in the Batgirl book it's some of the better issues. Pluck and determination, damn it!


But the big difference is that The Black Mirror is actually good.
it has scenes of amputation and dead and horror and kids doing evil things, is heavily psychological too and just as you put it ultragrim and dark

One of the best of Snyder, Honestly it is my favorite work of his.
How come this is still regarded as a masterpiece while Gail´s Batgirl is so vilified, the reason is quality. quite simple.

If you want see a grimdark tale with Batgirl told right check Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, the issue with the origin of Humpty Dumpty with Barb as Batgirl shows how that kind of aspect can be done with the character.

----------


## Carabas

> But the big difference is that The Black Mirror is actually good.
> it has scenes of amputation and dead and horror and kids doing evil things, is heavily psychological too and just as you put it ultragrim and dark
> 
> One of the best of Snyder, Honestly it is my favorite work of his.


I think the difference was that in The Black Mirror, Snyder was forced to write Batman as a not that dark character, because he was Dick Grayson at the time. It forced him to add nuance to his story.
In the New 52 he gets to write Bruce Wayne, and his Bruce Wayne feels like a charicature of the character's darkest incarnations. Some kind of almost inhuman, always angry, grimdark super-avenger.

Maybe he got better after I dropped it, but reading the threads, I kinda doubt it.





> How come this is still regarded as a masterpiece while Gail´s Batgirl is so vilified, the reason is quality. quite simple.


Contrast, I would say.
If editorial forces a uniformly grimdark tone on all Batman family books, then nothing is going to stand out, and the one that most deviates from what it ought to be is not going to be viewed as favourite by fans while on the otherhand the fans are used to the main Bruce Wayne Batman books to be various kinds of dark.

Also, Snyder's events pretty much being scattered all over the Bat-family books (except Bat-Woman) means his books are even more visible and influential, and people who are not on board with that just leave.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> I think the difference was that in The Black Mirror, Snyder was forced to write Batman as a not that dark character, because he was Dick Grayson at the time. It forced him to add nuance to his story.
> In the New 52 he gets to write Bruce Wayne, and his Bruce Wayne feels like a charicature of the character's darkest incarnations. Some kind of almost inhuman, always angry, grimdark super-avenger.
> 
> Maybe he got better after I dropped it, but reading the threads, I kinda doubt it.


this implying that Barb by default is a Dark character like Bruce and not like Dick.
I dissagree, if Gail really wanted a lighter tone on the book but editorial was forcing it at the very least he could had made Barb smile once in a while. she didnt need to be put into an spiral of misery 24/7.





> Contrast, I would say.
> If editorial forces a uniformly grimdark tone on all Batman family books, then nothing is going to stand out, and the one that most deviates from what it ought to be is not going to be viewed as favourite by fans while on the otherhand the fans are used to the main Bruce Wayne Batman books to be various kinds of dark.
> 
> Also, Snyder's events pretty much being scattered all over the Bat-family books (except Bat-Woman) means his books are even more visible and influential, and people who are not on board with that just leave.


I dont think the influence of the Snyder books have anything to do with this, Black Mirror didnt had any tie-ins

----------


## batsgrayson

> this implying that Barb by default is a Dark character like Bruce and not like Dick.
> *I dissagree, if Gail really wanted a lighter tone on the book but editorial was forcing it at the very least he could had made Barb smile once in a while.* she didnt need to be put into an spiral of misery 24/7.


She did smile... I think you're reaching there.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> She did smile... I think you're reaching there.


ok make me im exaggerating a bit but the point is the character is absurdly unhappy for most of the run, big majority of it, and for no reason. you cant debate that Barb recovered the use of her legs and she is miserable most of the time, that was not necessary.

----------


## Carabas

> this implying that Barb by default is a Dark character like Bruce and not like Dick.
> I dissagree, if Gail really wanted a lighter tone on the book but editorial was forcing it at the very least he could had made Barb smile once in a while. she didnt need to be put into an spiral of misery 24/7.


How is it implying that? I am comparing Bruce Wayne to Dick Grayson.




> I dont think the influence of the Snyder books have anything to do with this, Black Mirror didnt had any tie-ins


And Black Mirror didn't have any influence on other books.
On the other hand, his books that have tons of tie-ins do have a very heavy footprint on the New 52 Batman universe.




> ok make me im exaggerating a bit but the point is the character is absurdly unhappy for most of the run, big majority of it, and for no reason. you cant debate that Barb recovered the use of her legs and she is miserable most of the time, that was not necessary.


Yeah. Because editorial has dictated that batman characters shall be miserable, no matter how their writer might feel about that.

Remember that at one point Gail was fired from the book by the editor and then quickly rehired... Clearly there was a lot of friction between her and editorial. And most other writers and editorial in that period.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> How is it implying that? I am comparing Bruce Wayne to Dick Grayson.


and I was comparing Barb to Dick Grayson and Bruce
I think she can be dark and still be lke dick grayson instead of bruce




> And Black Mirror didn't have any influence on other books.
> On the other hand, his books that have tons of tie-ins do have a very heavy footprint on the New 52 Batman universe.


soo
what is exactly your point then?




> Yeah. Because editorial has dictated that batman characters shall be miserable, no matter how their writer might feel about that.


I do not question that, my point is not what tone works or not on the character and neither if the writers have control over that tone
my complains are HOW that tone is implemented

Gail went way overboard with half of the stuff here.

for example
was it also editorially mandated that she had a flashback to the killing joke as often as it had?

without exaggeration i think it is at least mentioned on some fashion or another once on every single arc(expect maybe on some tie-ins)
On the Mirror she had this stupid dream sequence where herself as batgirl is in a wheelchair nagging her, then on grotesque´s arc we have a retcon that once of the goons of the joker save her life because again LULZ(no reason), then we have the knightfall arc and it is mentioned there when she gets stabbed in the back, then we get the Joker tie-in which was the Killing Jokes orgy everyone wanted, then the james jr arc also on had it on only 1 chapter, HER CHAPTER OWN, NOT the other writer who did the first 3 issues, nop, the final one needed to remind us that she was previously on a wheelchair because she was shot.
even in the Movement when she guess-stared she has a flashback again.


This was NOT necessary

this was the equivalent of having Bruce had a flash back of crime alley on every new case he takes.
Do not blame editorial for this, this is all Gail Simone.




> Remember that at one point Gail was fired from the book by the editor and then quickly rehired... Clearly there was a lot of friction between her and editorial. And most other writers and editorial in that period.


I remember that the book suddenly improved for 2 issues and then it went to become bad again, yes I remember that.

and no troll or joke, Barb is actually more likable on those issues.
and even though most of those chps had the narration of James Jr, his own voice is much more better than when he appeared on DotF or the final chp, he is terrifing here and at Simone´s chp he is incompetent and a momma´s boy for some reason.

----------


## Godlike13

Its like its 2011 again.

----------


## batsgrayson

@Arnoldoaad If you compare Gail's Batgirl and Higgins' Nightwing there isn't much of a difference in tone or themes. Bat Books back then were dark, it was a totally different situation than it is right now.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Its like its 2011 again.


He's the guy who would rant endlessly about Gail on the old CBR, right?

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> He's the guy who would rant endlessly about Gail on the old CBR, right?


a lot of people did that and for different reasons
also that comic was from 2013




> @Arnoldoaad If you compare Gail's Batgirl and Higgins' Nightwing there isn't much of a difference in tone or themes. Bat Books back then were dark, it was a totally different situation than it is right now.


thankfully thats true but again my point is not that Batgirl was bad because it was dark, my point is that it was bad because it was badly written
Nightwing by Higgins was really good

Equally, Stewart, Fletcher, and Tarr were good not because of the tone of the book but because they wrote a good book with that tone.

----------


## batsgrayson

I've seen a lot of people criticize the lighter tone of the Burnside run because, in their opinion, it was badly written. The argument can be made both ways. This is all very subjective. All of us are different people, we're bound to enjoy different things, so just because something isn't for your taste that doesn't mean it is terrible.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> I've seen a lot of people criticize the lighter tone of the Burnside run because, in their opinion, it was badly written. The argument can be made both ways. This is all very subjective. All of us are different people, we're bound to enjoy different things, so just because something isn't for your taste that doesn't mean it is terrible.


well lets play
I think Gail´s run is badly written because it flashbacks to TJK 700 times on it.

why do you think that is good?
important, if your answer is ¨personal taste¨ you lose the game

and just to make it equal what part of Burnside is badly written?

Edit: just thought of something
here is my problem with this conversation 
If it is for personal taste then I completely 100% respect that
I really do, it is just that when that conversation starts it usually drifts away from that point into ¨I like it because you are wrong about what it is¨ or because X was not important on the book and that X is what the book is about
for example I completely would understand it if someone responds: I like the book because I like to see Barb suffering. 

but no one who actually likes this book has said that to me.

----------


## Carabas

> well lets play
> I think Gail´s run is badly written because it flashbacks to TJK 700 times on it.
> why do you think that is good?


It doesn't work like that. If you expect us to explain why we think they're good you first have to explain why they're bad beyond a blanket "I don't like them".

----------


## sorboares

I will always say that Gail Simones Batgirl was and is the best Batgirl run. The dark tones and themes,her costume,the art,the cover art and how she is suffering PTSD makes sense after what she had been through. 
Burnside Batgirl was too extreme a jump from Gails Batgirl. If they wanted to make Batgirl a little brighter fair enough but Burnside was too camp, too bright,too childish and immature compared to wat we had been reading with Gails run the past few years. You cant expect the fans too seriously believe its the same character.
Burnside should have been a completely different Batgirl comic n not continued from Gail. Why couldnt we get like the Batman comics there r different Batman titles sowhy couldnt we have Gails awesome adult Batgirl and have  seperate title for Burnsides child like Batgirl?
I dont see why Batgirl needs to be so bright and happy and taking selfies? You dont see male heroes do that so because Batgirl is female she has to be immature and childish?
I like to see my female heroes kick butt and be as strong and powerful as their male counterparts.  
Gail's Batgirl was that, Batwoman was that until she was sadly cancelled. 
Im a huge Xena Warrior Princess fan and that's coz she too kicks ass and isnt all bright and immature.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

Now the conversation is actually getting interesting
I honestly like this




> It doesn't work like that. If you expect us to explain why we think they're good you first have to explain why they're bad beyond a blanket "I don't like them".


I dont like them for exactly the same opposite reason that sorboares said on the next post.
sorboares says that in the story Barb is strong

I dont like the flashbacks because it make her look weak and I dont mean that because I dont like TKJ quite the contrary I think TJK is an Excellent story, but it is not Barb´s story, and Gail´s run try to make her all about that.

the constant reminders just make it like thats the only thing that happen on the story but it is not, in the original his own father is kidnapped and physically and mentally tortured.
however when you see Gail´s take on the story, Gordon is not kidnapped(which I think is later retconned back by Burnside´s run but cant remember how exactly)
so this entire event that only lasts 4-5 pages not only become an important event for Batgirl, on the run looks like it is THE ONLY IMPORTANT EVENT.

Its a very bad thing because it makes it so it defines her character when it shouldnt.
where Oracle is defined by her survival of the event, about how she moves on from it.
Gail´s Batgirl is defined by the event itself and about she cannot move forward.
she is defined by her victimhood and nothing more.
and she is a weak helpless victim, from beginning to end, and the mask is just a way to hide that, she fights to prove that it didnt affect her when its actually the fuel that keeps her going, she firghts for the killing joke, not because of a sense of rightfulness or justice, just selfishness.
for all figurative purposes Barbara Gordon is dead, only Batgirl remains.

now maybe you can say that thats just my interpretation of it and thats fine, thats what I get from it, I got the word Victim hammer down again and again and again, but you at least cant deny that the multiple references are unnecessary, 1 maybe 2 would be sufficient, but the book just never lets go from it. 

A lot of people argue that maybe Batgirl would had been fine if the event was retconned.
I actually disagree, it is just how the event is interpret that is the problem as Burnside´s handle of the killing joke is exactly what I wanted to see happen since the very start, but I would agree that Gail´s run would had been completely different if the event was removed.




> I will always say that Gail Simones Batgirl was and is the best Batgirl run. The dark tones and themes,her costume,the art,the cover art and how she is suffering PTSD makes sense after what she had been through. 
> Burnside Batgirl was too extreme a jump from Gails Batgirl. If they wanted to make Batgirl a little brighter fair enough but Burnside was too camp, too bright,too childish and immature compared to wat we had been reading with Gails run the past few years. You cant expect the fans too seriously believe its the same character.
> Burnside should have been a completely different Batgirl comic n not continued from Gail. Why couldnt we get like the Batman comics there r different Batman titles sowhy couldnt we have Gails awesome adult Batgirl and have  seperate title for Burnsides child like Batgirl?
> I dont see why Batgirl needs to be so bright and happy and taking selfies? You dont see male heroes do that so because Batgirl is female she has to be immature and childish?
> I like to see my female heroes kick butt and be as strong and powerful as their male counterparts.  
> Gail's Batgirl was that, Batwoman was that until she was sadly cancelled. 
> Im a huge Xena Warrior Princess fan and that's coz she too kicks ass and isnt all bright and immature.



I do agree that is is a completely extreme jump but how couldnt it be?
maybe Burnside is indeed too bright but even if it was less bright it would had created a contrast to how different it is.
compare it to Birds of Prey and there is still a huge contrast.

I also agree that the new batgirl is more childish but, it is batgirl  after all. she is 21 on both stories but she acts more her own age on Burnside.
on Gail´s run she is batgirl most of the time while on Burnside you do get to meet Barbara Gordon and this was very very easy for the writers to do because on Gail´s run there is practically no mention about her career, friends, prospects, hell even education, how come we dont learn any of this from Gail,s run, the only piece that remained was Alysia and she is tons more likable in Burnside.

Finally I completely disagree with the notion that Batwoman and Gail´s Batgirl are anywhere similar on the kickass area, I just dont even know where to start but Batwoman is gret on what she does, and a Burnside Batwoman version would be disastrous, it just wouldnt work because we know who Kate Kane is since Rucka´s run on Tec, her character is very well defined.
Gail´s Batgirl is not a well defined character just because she beats people up and has ptsd.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

anyone else feel like it's odd to see Rafael Albuquerue's name on batgirl?

----------


## Godlike13

If by odd u mean awesome, then yes  :Cool:

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

it was just rather unexpected

----------


## batsgrayson

From Manapul's instagram:

babs1.jpg

He's doing the Batgirl July variant, I think.

----------


## Babs

> anyone else feel like it's odd to see Rafael Albuquerue's name on batgirl?


Not really. Yes, he made the infamously pulled variant cover, but it was at his own request. He's a nice guy, and as an artist, this guy seems great for the book. His style seems like the perfect mix between the cute cartoony art from the Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr run and the more realistic art style from Gail Simone's run.

12445927_477587402431611_1679294557_n.jpg





> From Manapul's instagram:
> 
> babs1.jpg
> 
> He's doing the Batgirl July variant, I think.


Looks great! I'm glad they're keeping the Stewart/Tarr costume design.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

it's crazy it's taken this long to have batgirl and huntress on a team in the new 52

----------


## Babs

> it's crazy it's taken this long to have batgirl and huntress on a team in the new 52


Yeah, and what's even crazier is that Batgirl hasn't even met Supergirl yet. I totally expected some sort of Batgirl v Supergirl stunt to accompany the movie.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

it just boggles the mind that stuff like that has yet to happen and The case with the huntress is all kinds of stupid because now we're in a situation where there is going to have to be some big explanation as to why A Secret Agent would don a costume and code name similar to that of another hero they shouldn't know the existence of or have any reason to honor and respect

My Only guess is DC Felt with Rebirth they should just get it over with and Make Helena Bertinelli into the huntress even though they already decided that she wasn't going to be like that character when she was introduced in the new 52

now they gotta deal with making this character who is only Helena B. In Name only to Pre 52 Huntress Fans into the actual huntress

----------


## Factor

> it just boggles the mind that stuff like that has yet to happen and The case with the huntress is all kinds of stupid because now we're in a situation where there is going to have to be some big explanation as to why A Secret Agent would don a costume and code name similar to that of another hero they shouldn't know the existence of or have any reason to honor and respect
> 
> My Only guess is DC Felt with Rebirth they should just get it over with and Make Helena Bertinelli into the huntress even though they already decided that she wasn't going to be like that character when she was introduced in the new 52
> 
> now they gotta deal with making this character who is only Helena B. In Name only to Pre 52 Huntress Fans into the actual huntress


There's no reason to believe Bertinelli will don the Huntress costume to honor her Earth 2 counterpart. The situation is really not any different from Barry Allen and Jay Garrick chosing the same superhero identity.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> There's no reason to believe Bertinelli will don the Huntress costume to honor her Earth 2 counterpart. The situation is really not any different from Barry Allen and Jay Garrick chosing the same superhero identity.


but the exact same color scheme and name? what reason would she have to become the huntress if she doesn't know about Helena Wayne or give a crap about her

i could let this slide if Helena Wayne Never Teamed up with anyone who still exists on this earth but she has and anyone she spent time with is gonna wonder who the hell this weirdo calling herself the huntress is...that obviously isn't the real huntress

----------


## jules

> but the exact same color scheme and name? what reason would she have to become the huntress if she doesn't know about Helena Wayne or give a crap about her


She's a spy, who's been working for a spy agency that collects superhero identities. It's pretty likely that she knows of the existence of Helena Wayne.

Also, in the early days of Worlds Finest Helena Wayne said that she'd borrowed the identity of Helena Bertinelli, who she believed to be dead. Helena Bertinelli might therefore think it fair game to (a) take her name back, and (b) appropriate the impostor's costumed identity as well. They do, after all, share the crossbow as a weapon of choice, even if they have very different photographs in their passports.

----------


## batsgrayson

Batgirl's August solicit



*BATGIRL #2*

Written by HOPE LARSON

Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE

Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL

Beyond Burnside part two. Batgirl is off to Singapore! Following the mysterious advice of the ancient superhero known as Fruit Bat, Babs dives into the dangerous world of MMA fighting. But her first opponent may be more than just an adversary in the ring. Could she be connected to Babs new travel-companion-slash-maybe-crush?

On sale AUGUST 24  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Caivu

I'm gonna guess it's not professional, sanctioned MMA, but more akin to Fight Club.

Interesting direction.

----------


## sorboares

Just wish they changed her costume back to Gail Simones Batgirl run or something very similar.

----------


## Babs

> Just wish they changed her costume back to Gail Simones Batgirl run or something very similar.


I like the Burnside costume much more than the armored look from Simone's run. I'm glad they're keeping it, and i'm glad they kept Barbara as Batgirl for Rebirth.

----------


## sorboares

> I like the Burnside costume much more than the armored look from Simone's run. I'm glad they're keeping it, and i'm glad they kept Barbara as Batgirl for Rebirth.


Im very happy they kept Barbara as Batgirl but still not a fan of the Burnside costume. That costume is more of a year one costume not for someone as experienced as Barbara and after her spine being shot. The armored costume looks better and makes more sense to protect her.

----------


## Batman Forever

I'd like to see some of barbara's history as a character restored, especially her time as oracle at least in some capacity. I'd also like her to be more of a peer to dick grayson than to steph brown and cass.

----------


## Babs

> I'd like to see some of barbara's history as a character restored, especially her time as oracle at least in some capacity. I'd also like her to be more of a peer to dick grayson than to steph brown and cass.


Idk, it makes sense for her, Cass, and Steph to team-up because it's the three Batgirls... 

As far as i know, Rebirth does restore her history as Oracle, though i'm not sure to what extend. Maybe she was like a 15 year-old kid-genius in hacking like in Beware The Batman.

See, the problem here i see with Rebirth is that trying to reconnect to pre-flashpoint, and adding back all this kind of character history, is that it's convoluting one timeline because the old fanboys couldn't let go of the old one. Any fanboy cheering at Rebirth for being the return of the "good" continuity doesn't seem to mind that this might actually be doing more damage than good, and create a sort of Frankenstein DCU. 

As i said, as long as Barbara is Batgirl, or at least on her feet, i'll be happy. I wouldn't mind the costume from Simone's run if she kept the Doc Martens. The knee-high boots just looked stupid.

----------


## RedQueen

I wish they would get rid of the microchip stuff that's making her walk. That whole concept is a strange story telling.

----------


## Babs

> I wish they would get rid of the microchip stuff that's making her walk. That whole concept is a strange story telling.


I find it pretty hypocritical that some people have a problem with Barbara's surgery, yet appear to be completely fine with how Bruce Wayne recovered to peak physique from a broken spine within a year, and people like Jason Todd who came back from the dead by dipping into some magical water. For over 20 years writers had to pretend that Barbara could not be cured while everyone else got the quick-fix come-back stories over and over, whether it's from a broken spine, being beaten, stabbed, shot, send back to the stone age, and even full blown death... But no, Barbara Gordon absolutely could not be cured. Jason Todd was beaten to death with a crowbar and then Joker blew up the building he was in... and he came back from that... But no, curing Barbara... That's strange storytelling.

*edit  erghh... Excuse me if i came of as kinda raw and rude there... In case you meant "i wish they found a better way to cure Babs" then i have to agree with that. The microchip is interesting. Most people would say that the lazarus pit would be too cheap, but it seems other characters again get the "get out of jail free" card all too often, and nobody complains.

----------


## Carabas

> I wish they would get rid of the microchip stuff that's making her walk. That whole concept is a strange story telling.


What it is fairly close to realistic. This is something people are actually working on and have had some practical succes with.

----------


## RedQueen

> I find it pretty hypocritical that some people have a problem with Barbara's surgery, yet appear to be completely fine with how Bruce Wayne recovered to peak physique from a broken spine within a year, and people like Jason Todd who came back from the dead by dipping into some magical water. For over 20 years writers had to pretend that Barbara could not be cured while everyone else got the quick-fix come-back stories over and over, whether it's from a broken spine, being beaten, stabbed, shot, send back to the stone age, and even full blown death... But no, Barbara Gordon absolutely could not be cured. Jason Todd was beaten to death with a crowbar and then Joker blew up the building he was in... and he came back from that... But no, curing Barbara... That's strange storytelling.
> 
> *edit  erghh... Excuse me if i came of as kinda raw and rude there... In case you meant "i wish they found a better way to cure Babs" then i have to agree with that. The microchip is interesting. Most people would say that the lazarus pit would be too cheap, but it seems other characters again get the "get out of jail free" card all too often, and nobody complains.


It's not that it's making her walk that I have a problem with, but that you can get into Babs head via this chip. I found that story odd and it seems if someone can access someone like Barbara's mind with all that knowledge of the Batfamily and so forth, it's very dangerous and a liability for everyone else, not just her.

That fact they introduced that notion and she's still got that chip in her it kind of just seems strange. I wish Burnside at least made that scene we're she was walking on her own not a mind trick because that means I won't have to fear another story like that again.

I'm not a fan of Babs's mind being manipulated with and that she could be a liability without even knowing it because if some dude like "Greg" can get in there then who knows what could happen.

I just say give her the ability to walk on her own so that the chip won't have launch such storylines.

----------


## Carabas

> It's not that it's making her walk that I have a problem with, but that you can get into Babs head via this chip.


Wait, is this the stuff that let her walk way back in Batgirl #1, or something that got added later that I don't know about?

Because that technology does not let you get into her head. I have one of those things (less advanced, of course) implanted myself (for a completely different kind of injury).

----------


## Babs

> It's not that it's making her walk that I have a problem with, but that you can get into Babs head via this chip. I found that story odd and it seems if someone can access someone like Barbara's mind with all that knowledge of the Batfamily and so forth, it's very dangerous and a liability for everyone else, not just her.
> 
> That fact they introduced that notion and she's still got that chip in her it kind of just seems strange. I wish Burnside at least made that scene we're she was walking on her own not a mind trick because that means I won't have to fear another story like that again.
> 
> I'm not a fan of Babs's mind being manipulated with and that she could be a liability without even knowing it because if some dude like "Greg" can get in there then who knows what could happen.
> 
> I just say give her the ability to walk on her own so that the chip won't have launch such storylines.


I agree, i had the same problem with that in the last arc. I think making the microchip hackable to the point where someone can enter Barbara's brain was just stupid, and pretty character de-powering. I really expected something better from Fletcher and Stewart. As much as i love the whole setting of Burnside, the fact that both their arcs revolved around the chip was a let-down. After the first arc, Stewart seemed to be very much against using any of the TKJ elements of the character's history and focus only on present day Batgirl stories, and the plot of the very next arc is about the chip again. I suspect, like with Gail Simone's run, this was more editorial than Stewart and Fletcher.

We'll have to see where Hope Larson takes things. I'm cautiously optimistic because at least they kept Babs as Batgirl, and not instantly pushed the off-switch on that chip to make her Oracle again for Rebirth. 
I do fear that this is the very reason why she has the chip to begin with, so that in case of emergency (low sales or whatever), DC can re-cripple her again. When that happens, my trust and support for DC will be completely destroyed.

----------


## RedQueen

> Wait, is this the stuff that let her walk way back in Batgirl #1, or something that got added later that I don't know about?
> 
> Because that technology does not let you get into her head. I have one of those things (less advanced, of course) implanted myself (for a completely different kind of injury).


Babs's one was like way advance. The Greg dude implanted stuff into her head and made her forget things. Her mind literally got hacked into.

----------


## RedQueen

> I do fear that this is the very reason why she has the chip to begin with, so that in case of emergency (low sales or whatever), DC can re-cripple her again. When that happens, my trust and support for DC will be completely destroyed.


That's the scary thing about it. DC has come too far with her story now. Oracle was built on a different set of circumstance while her new life is an entirely different. To do so would be a disservice to Babs and her mantels.

----------


## Carabas

> Babs's one was like way advance. The Greg dude implanted stuff into her head and made her forget things. Her mind literally got hacked into.


I asked when this was. Which isssues? I remember nothing of the kind.

----------


## RedQueen

> I asked when this was. Which isssues? I remember nothing of the kind.


my bad, it's in the last arc of Burnside. I think it's from issues 45 to 50? that's off the top of my head.

----------


## Carabas

> my bad, it's in the last arc of Burnside. I think it's from issues 45 to 50? that's off the top of my head.


Used to be, big stupid retcons were just ignored and didn't require future writers to go out of their way to undo them.

----------


## Babs

13285530_1751684241735528_1680727697_n.jpg

Batgirl post on Instagram by Rafael Albuquerque

----------


## Nick Miller

Birds of prey art preview is out

Looks great

----------


## Hypestyle

With the soft reboots and whatever else has gone on in recent years, how old is Barbara supposed to be?  Is Dick Grayson supposed to be older than her now?  At the time of the silver Age Barbara’s debut, she was demonstrably older.  Then by the post-crisis time frame, they were more or less set up to be around the same age, then the bizarre back-and-forth of Barbara not being Jim’s biological daughter, and so forth.. 
So what’s her status quo now?

----------


## Aahz

> With the soft reboots and whatever else has gone on in recent years, how old is Barbara supposed to be?  Is Dick Grayson supposed to be older than her now?  At the time of the silver Age Barbara’s debut, she was demonstrably older.  Then by the post-crisis time frame, they were more or less set up to be around the same age, then the bizarre back-and-forth of Barbara not being Jim’s biological daughter, and so forth.. 
> So what’s her status quo now?


In the new 52 Dick and Barbara are both 21. That might of course change now with "Rebirth".

----------


## batsgrayson

*BATGIRL #3*

Written by HOPE LARSON

Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE

Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL

Beyond Burnside part 3! After Batgirl faces off against a second villain with the mark of The Student, she must set off to Korea to get to the bottom of the mysterious attacks before someone close to her gets caught in the crossfire!

----------


## Factor

Wow that's an awesome cover

----------


## Babs

I'm getting a feeling from the covers and plot we see from Batgirl now is that it seems to have found a balance between Gail Simone's run and Stewart/Fletcher's. It's not as cartoony as Burnside, but it's not as grimdark and gritty as the title was during the first 3 years of the new52.

----------


## Stormcrow

*Comicvine* has the solicit for _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ #2:

*BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #2*

Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
Art by CLAIRE ROE
Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA

“WHO IS ORACLE?” part 3! Batgirl, Black Canary, and Huntress must team up with the GCPD to protect a mafia capo from an attack by his one-time friends! He’s the only man with a lead on the nefarious new Oracle…but dead men tell no tales! Of course, it’s hard to make a team-up work when the team’s ready to tear itself apart on its first mission!
On sale SEPTEMBER 14 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

----------


## batsgrayson

Seeing these covers makes me wish Paquette was drawing this book.

----------


## Park Slope Pixie

I just wish this Batgirl was back:

----------


## Babs

> I just wish this Batgirl was back:


I tend to agree in the sense that Barbara Gordon should be a lighthearted and confident Batgirl like she was in Year One, and so far the new52 has not really been able to give us these sort of straight-up kick-ass confident Batgirl adventures that i'd have expected when DC announced they were bringing Babs back as Batgirl.
I always felt like Batgirl Year One and Batman The Animated Series gave us the best incarnations of the character. 
Barbara during Gail Simone's run was nothing like that. Reading her Batgirl book felt like i was reading some depressed angry woman moping around in self-doubt that got increasingly worse as the run went along. Don't get me wrong, Gail is a wonderful woman and a great writer, but it was pretty painfully obvious that she was forced by editorial to write the book as dark and serious as possible. It never felt like a Batgirl title to me, not even Cassandra was this dark and moody. This was written to be as close to a Batman title as Batgirl could get. 
Then Burnside happened, and i really felt like they tried very hard to bring back that Year One/ BTAS Batgirl spirit. It worked for the first arc, and i loved every second of it from #35 to 40... But then after Convergence, it kinda felt like either Cameron Stewart had lost his core motivation, or editorial again didn't allow him and Brenden Fletcher to write the story they wanted to write. Also, Stewart not doing the comic's interior outlining really didn't help. As much as i love Babs Tarr's art, the quality drop really showed badly after #40. 
I know the entire appearance of RoboBatBunny Gordon was 100% forced in by editorial. They pretty much confirmed this in interviews by stating they were planning a different arc.

What i'm hoping for Hope Larson's run to be is like... if Gail's run was too dark, and Cameron's was too light, Hope's run will be "just right!", and that the book will finally have a stable tone and character portrayal.

----------


## Carabas

> I just wish this Batgirl was back:


That particular Batgirl never even existed in publication beyond Batgirl: Year One.

----------


## Frontier

> I just wish this Batgirl was back:


I do miss that kind of Batgirl costume. I get the appeal of the Burnside outfit, but it's just never done it for me.

----------


## Stormcrow

> What i'm hoping for Hope Larson's run to be is like... if Gail's run was too dark, and Cameron's was too light, Hope's run will be "just right!", and that the book will finally have a stable tone and character portrayal.


I'm amazed at how much I agree with everything you said, really hoping that last part if true for Hope Larson's run...

Gail Simone's run never felt right and while I loved the first Burnside arc, the book seemed to lose its focus moving forward (despite including villains I adore like Livewire and Velvet Tiger). I know Cameron Stewart was busy elsewhere with Fight Club 2 and other stuff but it sure impacted the book.

----------


## sorboares

> I'm amazed at how much I agree with everything you said, really hoping that last part if true for Hope Larson's run...
> 
> Gail Simone's run never felt right and while I loved the first Burnside arc, the book seemed to lose its focus moving forward (despite including villains I adore like Livewire and Velvet Tiger). I know Cameron Stewart was busy elsewhere with Fight Club 2 and other stuff but it sure impacted the book.



Gail Simones run was perfect in my eyes. I really disliked Batgirl of Burnside,  the art and costume was really wat I couldnt handle. 
The art was too cartoony and just plain horrible sorry.  
I really hope this new team improves Batgirl and the art is already starting to look better. Fingers crossed it all gets better and better from here in.  

Totally off subject. 
Does anyone know if there is a list which let's you know which issues Batgirl is in for the series Injustice Among Us comics and for Batgirls appearances in the comics Young Justice?  

Thanks

----------


## Carabas

> Gail Simones run was perfect in my eyes. I really disliked Batgirl of Burnside,  the art and costume was really wat I couldnt handle. 
> The art was too cartoony and just plain horrible sorry.  
> I really hope this new team improves Batgirl and the art is already starting to look better. Fingers crossed it all gets better and better from here in.


See, I couldn't care less about the costumes or even the art style. They were both okay. All I about is the stories, and Simone's Batgirl was some of the worst stuff of her entire carreer, no doubt thanks to unreasonable editorial edicts and bloody stupid events interrupting the flow at the drop of a hat.

----------


## Caivu

> Totally off subject. 
> Does anyone know if there is a list which let's you know which issues Batgirl is in for the series Injustice Among Us comics and for Batgirls appearances in the comics Young Justice?  
> 
> Thanks


For Injustice, as Batgirl:

http://comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=82061

And as Oracle:

http://comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=78899

Those might not be 100% complete. You should be able to find her YJ appearances on that site, too.

----------


## sorboares

> For Injustice, as Batgirl:
> 
> http://comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=82061
> 
> And as Oracle:
> 
> http://comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=78899
> 
> Those might not be 100% complete. You should be able to find her YJ appearances on that site, too.


Thanks so much Ill go and have a look now  :Smile:

----------


## batsgrayson

Some stuff from the DC REBIRTH's Young Gotham & Young Metropolis Panel:

"We're picking up where the previous arc left off," she said. "Batgirl is coming off a tough fight she almost didn't win, so she needs to go off on vacation and regroup." Barbara is going to Asia on a backpacking trip, where she'll run into "an old friend" and get roped into "all kinds of trouble."
Albuquerque said he got to learn about "a lot of cool places" drawing Larson's script. "I want to visit all of them — we tried to make it really real. I tried to find 3D models and reference to make it very real and believable."
Asked about the research Larson did on the character, "I didn't go that deep — I read the previous two arcs, and I did a lot of Internet research," she responded. "You can only spend so much time reading comics — you can read them forever — but I felt an affinity for the character very quickly. I'm not a super-genius, but I see a lot of myself in Batgirl. I see a lot of the messy parts, which makes her fun to write."
A fan asked if Batgirl would be meeting a lot of preestablished characters — Larson said that most of the characters would be new. "In television, you'd consider it a bottle episode... it's in its own little world for one arc."

Overall, have to say I'm not really excited about anything besides the artwork. Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

----------


## Badou

*spoilers:*
Bruce and Babs are apparently sleeping together in The Killing Joke movie
*end of spoilers*

https://twitter.com/AcroNite7/status/756542233424388096

----------


## borntohula

> *spoilers:*
> Bruce and Babs are apparently sleeping together in The Killing Joke movie
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> https://twitter.com/AcroNite7/status/756542233424388096


Tip from the coach: Watch the actual film, instead of a 13 s. choppy gif. animation. --There's most definitely more to it than that.

----------


## dan12456

> Tip from the coach: Watch the actual film, instead of a 13 s. choppy gif. animation. --There's most definitely more to it than that.


So condescending, it's literally the entire scene buddy. Some things are self explanatory.

----------


## Badou

> Tip from the coach: Watch the actual film, instead of a 13 s. choppy gif. animation. --There's most definitely more to it than that.


It's a pretty important part though. Also if it is more of something bad is it worth it? It's an incredibly unpopular change to a story that didn't really need it. Barbara's character seems to be pretty bad in this movie from what I'm seeing. At least in the first half.

----------


## borntohula

> So condescending, it's literally the entire scene buddy. Some things are self explanatory.


theres a whole film. from which i understand that you regardless wont like. 




> It's a pretty important part though. Also if it is more of something bad is it worth it? It's an incredibly unpopular change to a story that didn't really need it. Barbara's character seems to be pretty bad in this movie from what I'm seeing. At least in the first half.


absolutely. big moment. something bruce timm geared towards in several of his batman animated stuff. 

reason i mentioned it is that lots are getting angry over the scene, which perhaps is one better seen in the film itself. rather spoiled because of a gif that where posted in order to get attention. 

but ill leave it to that. i e yet seen the film myself. im hoping its good. 

cheers

----------


## batalia

Is totally fine if people don't like the Bruce/Barbara pairing but all this trippin and acting like DC committed some kind of crime is ridiculous. So what if it is not canon in the comics. How many times have non canon thing and changes happen in TV/movie adaptation.

----------


## Harpsikord

> Is totally fine if people don't like the Bruce/Barbara pairing but all this trippin and acting like DC committed some kind of crime is ridiculous. So what if it is not canon in the comics. How many times have non canon thing and changes happen in TV/movie adaptation.


My issue with it is the fact that they're adding something controversial to a movie that's going to be controversial enough given the inherent storyline it is based after.

----------


## batalia

Maybe they wanted the controversy. I'm sure they are aware how most people were going to react to it.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Babs will probably have a reason for sleeping with Bruce and it will probably make sense in the story they are telling. All the outrage over a gif seems pretty ridiculous imo but either way worse things could be happening to her character in this story.

----------


## Godlike13

Worse things do happen to her character in that story. Its just a rather poor solution to giving Babs more of a role in that story, which was already controversial because of Babs role in it. But it gets a reaction, good or bad, and i guess thats the point. Story still kind of sucks for Babs though.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Babs will probably have a reason for sleeping with Bruce and it will probably make sense in the story they are telling. All the outrage over a gif seems pretty ridiculous imo but either way worse things could be happening to her character in this story.


You're right, Joker could get in on the action

----------


## batsgrayson

She has been Batgirl for 3 years in this, there was also a line where she says that she was a kid when Batman fought the Joker for the first time.

And if anything this just makes her even more of a plot device to increase Bruce's man pain. Instead of being the Disposable Woman she becomes the Disposable Love Interest.

----------


## Harpsikord

> You're right, Joker could get in on the action


Oh, I'm sure he will. You've read the story, right?

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> Worse things do happen to her character in that story. Its just a rather poor *solution* to giving Babs more of a role in that story, which was already controversial because of Babs role in it. But it gets a reaction, good or bad, and i guess thats the point. Story still kind of sucks for Babs though.


¨solution¨ is definitely not the right word to what is attempted here
I mean, the people behind this know TKJ, they have to know what this means to the character of barb and they have to know what some people think about it and how those people might react.
so you post an scenario: 
problem - Barb really doesnt have much to do in the story in which a huge event happen to her, and a lot of people dont like that
solution - do THAT

No!
No one is that stupid to come up with that, you are right, this is for the reaction.
this is doubling down
they know those who dont like barb getting shot wont like that so they are actively going for the next level and making the most controversial move
and they are doing it on purpose
and they knew this was going to be this reaction
is the Trump effect!

as my for my personal thoughts and feelings
I will do see the movie
and I dont mind at all that that this happen so im not angry
now
do I think this improve the story. I dont know, but I am in leaning on the ¨probably wasnt necessary¨ camp. will need to see the full movie to make a decision.

----------


## Frontier

...at least we got a nice Batgirl design out of it.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Well, what little interest I had in the Killing Joke is pretty much gone. It's not just the horrific treatment of Babs character but it's also a huge disservice to Bruce's. I can't picture _my_ Batman leering at Jim Gordon's young daughter then acting all buddy buddy with him. It's so gross. A good writer could convince an audience that Batman cared about a good friend and junior partner being crippled and sexually molested. They didn't need to add a sexual element to Bruce and Babs relationship.

----------


## CrimsonEchidna

> Well, what little interest I had in the Killing Joke is pretty much gone. It's not just the horrific treatment of Babs character but it's also a huge disservice to Bruce's. I can't picture _my_ Batman leering at Jim Gordon's young daughter then acting all buddy buddy with him. It's so gross. A good writer could convince an audience that Batman cared about a good friend and junior partner being crippled and sexually molested. They didn't need to add a sexual element to Bruce and Babs relationship.


I really don't get Bruce Timm's fascination with making Bruce and Barbara a thing.

----------


## Frontier

> I really don't get Bruce Timm's fascination with making Bruce and Barbara a thing.


I also can't understand what he thought it aded to a _Killing Joke_ adaption, let alone to Barbara's character.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Yo...Barbara fans....I warn you now...DO NOT watch the first 1/3 of this movie. I'm indifferent to her, in general, but even I nearly gasped at how they portrayed her, and Bruce (in regards to his relationship with her).

She's made even less of a character in this movie, than she was in the comic. If you do watch it, please try not to lash out and hurt anyone.

----------


## Nite-Wing

He definitely subscribes to the era before DC retconned Babs into a younger character to pair her with Dick or whatever. A lot of his art and the style of BTAS and TNBA is kinda molded from that.
I know the show isn't so much a pop culture footnote anymore but Batgirl was a love interest for Batman in the 60s tv show 
So at one point in time Babs was kinda circling Bruce 
And I assume that influenced the relationship in BTAS and Batman Beyond

----------


## Badou

> He definitely subscribes to the era before DC retconned Babs into a younger character to pair her with Dick or whatever. A lot of his art and the style of BTAS and TNBA is kinda molded from that.
> I know the show isn't so much a pop culture footnote anymore but Batgirl was a love interest for Batman in the 60s tv show 
> So at one point in time Babs was kinda circling Bruce 
> And I assume that influenced the relationship in BTAS and Batman Beyond


But Batgirl was paired with Robin in the old series far more than Batman. She was a female version of what Robin was on the show meant to appeal to young girls, and then they brought that version of the character over to the comics. I mean even the old Bat-girl character that was Batwoman's sidekick in the comics first who wasn't Barbara was meant to be a counterpart to Robin. Then even in Timm's own Batman animated series he had Dick and Barbara have romantic feelings before making her have a romance with Bruce later. Timm just likes Bruce having women fall all over him and he wants to again stir some controversy with Babs sleeping with Bruce in the movie to get some attention. It's just sad that not only is the relationship gross, but even without that Barbara did not have a good showing in the movie. She was by far the weakest part and it really took away from what The Killing Joke story was meant to be about, Joker and Batman.

----------


## joybeans

> She's made even less of a character in this movie, than she was in the comic.


That's really an impressive feat.

----------


## sorboares

> ...at least we got a nice Batgirl design out of it.


I cant wait for this movie. The design of Batgirl is amazing and heaps better than The Burnside Costume! 
I dont understand why people are so upset that a adult Batgirl had a sexual relationship with Batman. 
Who cares? 
Its been teased at for years on and off!

----------


## Vinsanity

> I cant wait for this movie. The design of Batgirl is amazing and heaps better than The Burnside Costume! 
> I dont understand why people are so upset that a adult Batgirl had a sexual relationship with Batman. 
> Who cares? 
> Its been teased at for years on and off!


I guess more the factor that she dated his 'son'. But she's an adult and she made her choices. Some people including the creators like the pairing. I don't dislike it but I don't like it. I'm just eh on it. I can see story line possibilities with it. 

Not a fan though of TKJ as a whole. So I'm going to pass on the movie.

----------


## batsgrayson

No people are upset because her 90% characterization is about pinning for Bruce. Because their idea of extending Barbara role in this film was to do a romance. I don't know how you can't see a problem with this.

'Its been teased at for years on and off!' It has been only been teased in Bruce Timm's work, wonder why.

----------


## sidekick77

> I guess more the factor that she dated his 'son'. But she's an adult and she made her choices. Some people including the creators like the pairing. I don't dislike it but I don't like it. I'm just eh on it. I can see story line possibilities with it. 
> 
> Not a fan though of TKJ as a whole. So I'm going to pass on the movie.



Overall, the movie itself was already taking on risk by adapting a book with contentious material.  The Killing Joke is an iconic story, but it was never about about Barbara as a civilian or a hero.  It was about using her pain and torture to motivate Batman into killing the Joker, which has always been my interpretation of Moore's ending.

Knowing this, Bruce Timm and the creative team promoted this adaption under the selling point that Barbara's story would be expanded to counterbalance these issues.  Sounds like a smart choice, right?  Yet what they chose to "expand" her narrative completely sinks any genuine effort to give her a role within the event separate from Batman's own motivations.

What is even more ironic is that it ties itself to an earlier experimentation of Bruce/Babs that had similar complaints of being used to create angst for Bruce and friction between him and Dick.  In the Batman Beyond cartoon, Babs is dragged into the harem of Bruce's women without the benefit of having their coupling explored or having her point of view represented on screen like Selina, Talia, Zatanna, Diana, or Andrea.  Its just simply painted as 'bad' or something that they both regret/feel bitter over.

I think that is the crux of the complaints levied at Bruce Timm with regards to Barbara.

----------


## Nite-Wing

If both are presented as adults and Dick isn't around I don't see the issue most of the time.
It can get really messy like what they did in the Beyond comics but this seems harmless

I'll have to watch the movie though some are saying Babs is basically in a relationship with Bruce to make him care more when she gets paralyzed. Other's are saying its just some added flavor to give context to why Batgirl inevitably quits

----------


## Punisher007

Am I supposed to be surprised by this?  It's not like the DC Animated stuff hasn't done this before coughDCAUcough.

When they said that they were adding more plot to Babs role in the story (which I was all for), I was hoping that it be something besides this.

*The dumbest part of this is them flat-out admitting that they did it because "they like controversy."*  TKJ is already a controversial-enough story as it is, especially the Barbara parts. * Just going out of your way to tick lots of fans off is baffling to me.

*
You want to show how "strong" a character she is and her overcoming this horrible thing that happens to her, I have no problem with that. Heck I welcome it.

 But if your brilliant plan to show how "strong" she is as a character is "have her start sleeping with Batman," then they and I have different definitions of that term.

 And no, I'm not opposed to have sexuality in these films in-general. I was fine with the Deadshot/Harley sex scene in AOA (actually it was hilarious imo) for example. Nor am I opposed to Barbara having a sex life. But THIS, this was awkward and off-putting the first time around and it does nothing to make her a "stronger character."

----------


## Punisher007

> If both are presented as adults and Dick isn't around I don't see the issue most of the time.
> It can get really messy like what they did in the Beyond comics but this seems harmless
> 
> *I'll have to watch the movie though some are saying Babs is basically in a relationship with Bruce to make him care more when she gets paralyzed. Other's are saying its just some added flavor to give context to why Batgirl inevitably quits*


*

*
And both of those sound like awful justifications to me.

----------


## Sacred Knight

From an outsider looking in, sorry you guys are being trolled by DC like this.  Creators should never have to cater to fans to the point they have to walk on eggshells to create a story, but at the same time I have no respect for elements added in that are admitted to be there just to make people mad.  That's not a motivation that aims to make a story better, and its unnecessarily cruel to your fans at that.

----------


## Punisher007

The thing is, it does nothing to actually add to her character.  She's even more of a prop to further Bruce's motivations than she was before.  They could have given her a role in the story OUTSIDE of Bruce, but they didn't.

----------


## Cowtools

I think it's clear that in some writers' minds (as well as some fans', judging from the positive reaction to the new Birds Of Prey comic keeping TKJ in continuity) that TKJ has shifted from being a comic about Batman's relationship with The Joker where Barbara is unfortunate collateral damage, to a comic mainly about how Barbara is crippled and sexually assaulted by The Joker.

----------


## Harpsikord

So, I watched the Killing Joke this morning.

*spoilers:*
At no point in this story is Babs given any authority. At any given time, she's constantly shown as being inferior - to Batman, who is always one step ahead and who constantly undermines her and at every point is better than her. She's attracted to him for reasons that are frankly inexplicable all throughout the prologue, and the only time she does something that's seen as helpful when it comes to stopping the 'bad guy' of the prologue is when she's losing control. She's also constantly objectified throughout the beginning of the film, which seems to be a point here, and it's just awful overall.

It doesn't make what happens later any better, it only makes it worse. Also, Timm tried to say that he didn't intend to imply that the Joker raped Barbara, but I don't know how to interpret the original scene from the comic, how it's written here, and the quote from the trio of prostitutes that he threw in any differently.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aahz

I'm a little bit confused about how Dixons Birds of Prey series and No Man's Land fit together.
No Man's Land started two month after Birds of Prey, and while Barbara is one of the protagonists of No Man's Land and is in Gotham during the early issues of Birds of Prey, you see nothing of No Man's Land in BoP and Gotham seems still completely intact. Did Dixon just completely ignored what was going on in Batman or how does that fit together.

----------


## batalia

Saw this on twitter. I believe this is from gotham adventures 51 issue. Writer touch on and played with the hints of Bruce/Barbara that was set up in Myster of Batman and later btas episodes like Torch Song, etc and BB. 

This is close to how I see that relationship unfolding then the way that BB comic (one where she gets pregnant) did. These two are way too smart to not be careful. Granted birth control and condoms can fail but their was no reason for them to make Barbara get pregnant especially if you are going to kill the baby anywhys. Can you imagine their baby. That would be one kickass child. I also don't think her and Dick got back together like the comic was implying. Barbara and Dick were over in old wounds. Barbara described their love as puppy love in BB plus I don't think these two would betray Dick like that. The comics aren't canon to the show anyways.

----------


## Stormcrow

Comics Alliance has a short interview with Hope Larson about her approach to the series and her influences for Batgirl's journey.

----------


## Caivu

Injustice is going into its last two issues this week, and that means that the Injusticeverse version of Barbara is going to be killed pretty soon, along with a few others.  :EEK!:

----------


## Cmbmool

> Comics Alliance has a short interview with Hope Larson about her approach to the series and her influences for Batgirl's journey.


Thanks to DC Rebirth they sort of messed up Batgirl and her mythos in the Batman overall mythos.  :Mad:

----------


## Carabas

> Thanks to DC Rebirth they sort of messed up Batgirl and her mythos in the Batman overall mythos.


What did they do this time?

----------


## Pohzee

> What did they do this time?


I can only speak for myself, but Barbara's status in the Bat-family has been downplayed ever since she was Burnsided. She is the third most experienced member of the Batfamily, but is seeking training in her solo and absent in crossovers. In her place, Batwoman, a character with less crimefighting experience than Tim Drake, is being pushed as the third pillar of the Batfamily in the upcoming Night of the Monster Men event.

It's not new to Rebirth, it's been an issue that started with the DCyou.

----------


## Caivu

> I can only speak for myself, but Barbara's status in the Bat-family has been downplayed ever since she was Burnsided. She is the third most experienced member of the Batfamily, but is seeking training in her solo and absent in crossovers. In her place, Batwoman, a character with less crimefighting experience than Tim Drake, is being pushed as the third pillar of the Batfamily in the upcoming Night of the Monster Men event.
> 
> It's not new to Rebirth, it's been an issue that started with the DCyou.


I think you might be doing something a lot of people do: conflating publication history with in-universe experience. As of right now, Batwoman has more experience on the whole than Tim or Barbara because her history remained mostly intact with the New 52 reboot. Theirs... didn't.

----------


## Godlike13

Even in the New 52 Batgirl was the 3rd Bat hero to pop up. She's been doing it for almost as long as Dick.

----------


## Caivu

> Even in the New 52 Batgirl was the 3rd Bat hero to pop up. She's been doing it for almost as long as Dick.


She started earlier, but she was only active as Batgirl for about a year-and-a-half before she was shot.

----------


## Pohzee

> I think you might be doing something a lot of people do: conflating publication history with in-universe experience. As of right now, Batwoman has more experience on the whole than Tim or Barbara because her history remained mostly intact with the New 52 reboot. Theirs... didn't.


I prefer to take a more wholistic view of characters than current continuity, but even still, Barbara has had more interactions with the rest of the Batfamily than Kate at the start of the New 52. She was involved in the Night of Owls and Death of the Family events, Robin Rises storyline, and continued to have a stronger prominence through Endgame. She's also been a vigilante for longer than Kate, active or inactive, so she naturally has had more time to develop relationships with the Batfamily, particulary Dick (though also Jason more than most would like.)

----------


## Carabas

> I can only speak for myself, but Barbara's status in the Bat-family has been downplayed ever since she was Burnsided. She is the third most experienced member of the Batfamily, but is seeking training in her solo and absent in crossovers. In her place, Batwoman, a character with less crimefighting experience than Tim Drake, is being pushed as the third pillar of the Batfamily in the upcoming Night of the Monster Men event.


You're taking a whole bunch of unrelated things that can each have half a dozen of seperate reasons, and attributing them all to some sinister anti-Batgirl agenda.

How is Batwoman being pushed when she doesn't even have her own book? How is Batgirl not being pushed when she has two books with her name in the title?

So Batwoman is in Detective Coimics... Could it not simply be that Kate fits the tone of the book or the directio of the story better than Babs? Or that the writer likes her more?

----------


## Caivu

> Barbara has had more interactions with the rest of the Batfamily than Kate at the start of the New 52. She was involved in the Night of Owls and Death of the Family events, Robin Rises storyline, and continued to have a stronger prominence through Endgame.


I'm not sure why this is relevant. From an in-universe standpoint, Kate's isolation is a part of her character. From a meta standpoint, the Batwoman team was asked if they wanted to participate in both Owls and DotF but they declined because it would've messed up their story plans. Also, Batwoman was technically in Endgame and Robin Rises; in the first she helped out by fighting alongside the rest of the Batfamily, and in RR she (along with Batwing) was entrusted by the rest of the Batfamily with protecting Gotham while they were off getting Damian back. Not huge roles, but she _was_ in them.




> She's also been a vigilante for longer than Kate, active or inactive, so she naturally has had more time to develop relationships with the Batfamily


Not sure how you determined this, unless you're just talking about publication history. I'm still not understanding why or how "relationship with the Batfamily" correlates with crimefighting ability.

----------


## Pohzee

> You're taking a whole bunch of unrelated things that can each have half a dozen of seperate reasons, and attributing them all to some sinister anti-Batgirl agenda.
> 
> How is Batwoman being pushed when she doesn't even have her own book? How is Batgirl not being pushed when she has two books with her name in the title?
> 
> So Batwoman is in Detective Coimics... Could it not simply be that Kate fits the tone of the book or the directio of the story better than Babs? Or that the writer likes her more?


It is not a conspiracy theory to weaken Batgirl, but it is not unconnected. 

The DCyou soft reboot of Batgirl did not physically deage her, but reduced her maturity and exposed her to a younger crowd. This seemingly less experience Batgirl feels out of place as a veteran vigilante, so she no longer acts a pillar of the family. I personally didn't like this change and I believe that it is detrimental to the character, but I realize that it was not done out of malevolence. It is all a part of Batgirl's rebranding.




> I'm not sure why this is relevant. From an in-universe standpoint, Kate's isolation is a part of her character. From a meta standpoint, the Batwoman team was asked if they wanted to participate in both Owls and DotF but they declined because it would've messed up their story plans. Also, Batwoman was technically in Endgame and Robin Rises; in the first she helped out by fighting alongside the rest of the Batfamily, and in RR she (along with Batwing) was entrusted by the rest of the Batfamily with protecting Gotham while they were off getting Damian back. Not huge roles, but she _was_ in them.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how you determined this, unless you're just talking about publication history. I'm still not understanding why or how "relationship with the Batfamily" correlates with crimefighting ability.


I'm not arguing about whether or not Barbara is a better fighter than Batwoman or who is a better character, I'm arguing that she should have a more important role in the Batfamily having been a part of it longer. 

She started crimefighting before Kate, so she has known members of the Batfamily like Dick and Jason for longer. She had more connections to the rest of the Batfamily than Kate did (prior to Rebirth.) You yourself said that Kate is a solo hero that interacts less with the Batfamily, so I'm not sure what is controversial about me saying that Barbara should have a more established connection to the rest of the Batfamily.

----------


## Caivu

> How is Batgirl not being pushed when she has two books with her name in the title?


Plus guest appearances in Nightwing! Which could very well be a regular thing.

----------


## Caivu

> It is not a conspiracy theory to weaken Batgirl, but it is not unconnected. 
> 
> The DCyou soft reboot of Batgirl did not physically deage her, but reduced her maturity and exposed her to a younger crowd. This seemingly less experience Batgirl feels out of place as a veteran vigilante, so she no longer acts a pillar of the family. I didn't like this change and I believe that it is detrimental to the character, but I realize that it was not done out of malevolence. It is all a part of Batgirl's rebranding.


How exactly was Burnside Batgirl less competent or experienced?

----------


## Carabas

> It is not a conspiracy theory to weaken Batgirl, but it is not unconnected. 
> 
> The DCyou soft reboot of Batgirl did not physically deage her, but reduced her maturity and exposed her to a younger crowd. This seemingly less experience Batgirl feels out of place as a veteran vigilante, so she no longer acts a pillar of the family. I didn't like this change and I believe that it is detrimental to the character, but I realize that it was not done out of malevolence. It is all a part of Batgirl's rebranding.


It was a reaction to the overly grimdark version that came before. The lightening of the tone is something that many fans explicitly asked for. Stewart & Fletcher's Batgirl fealt a lot lore like proper Batgirl to many people. And yeah, maybe it went a bit too much in the opposite side, but sometimes the price of asking for something, you getting what you want.

----------


## Pohzee

> How exactly was Burnside Batgirl less competent or experienced?


Perhaps not less experienced, but certainly less mature, which leaves the impression that she is less experienced since maturity comes from experience.

----------


## Caivu

> Perhaps not less experienced, but certainly less mature, which leaves the impression that she is less experienced since maturity comes from experience.


Okay then: how, specifically?

----------


## Pohzee

> Okay then: how, specifically?



You mean like scans or...? I don't think that it up for debate that the Batgirl series was much less mature and much more focused at a younger audience following the DCyou.

*Edit: I don't really feel like arguing any more because I really don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not reading Batgirl Rebirth and I'm dropping 'Tec after NotMM so neither Barbara nor Kate is any of my concern anymore.*

----------


## Carabas

> Perhaps not less experienced, but certainly less mature, which leaves the impression that she is less experienced since maturity comes from experience.


I just want to point out that Batman is often portrayed with all the maturity of a moody teenager who listens to way too much New Wave or whatever the modern equivalent is called..

----------


## Batgirll

Well, I need to say, I dont liked neither Batgir, Gail Simpne's run, was so dark, neither Burnside run, was so teen, I think her comic now in Rebirth is really nice, Barbara is a young woman, smart, fighter, kindness and adventureira, and in Birds of Prey, she is really cool too, but I agreed that they are separating her so much from the Batfamily, she was Batman pupil and she is friend of the guys, I think, imagine if Tim dies , this will affect nothing to her? And would be really cool if her being a teacher to Cass and Steph, teacher not to fight, Cass dont'need this, but Babs Could be a friend to Them.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, I need to say, I dont liked neither Batgir, Gail Simpne's run, was so dark, neither Burnside run, was so teen, I think her comic now in Rebirth is really nice, Barbara is a young woman, smart, fighter, kindness and adventureira, and in Birds of Prey, she is really cool too, but I agreed that they are separating her so much from the Batfamily, she was Batman pupil and she is friend of the guys, I think, imagine if Tim dies , this will affect nothing to her? And would be really cool if her being a teacher to Cass and Steph, teacher not to fight, Cass dont'need this, but Babs Could be a friend to Them.


Agree - I wish Babs was more connected to the rest of the Batfamily. But I think the Burnside run really separated her (geographically and demographic target) too much from the rest of the titles for her to easily cross over in her own title. There's a good likelihood of her showing up in other titles (like we've already seen with Nightwing), but it's frustrating. Hopefully the well-versed Benson sisters will take the lead in getting her some more interaction, since Larson is exceptionally unlikely to venture outside of her own creations in Asia for half a year, and more likely to play with only the Burnside characters for the next half year.

----------


## sorboares

Once fletcher took over Batgirl and sent her to Burnside and burnt her New 52 Costume thats when Batgirl went down hill. 
I know SOME people wanted a lighter Batgirl series but going from Gail Simones amazing adult and mature run to Burnside was so wrong and such a mistake. Burnside should have never been a continuation from Gails run because it was such a huge difference.
Burnside should have been a seperate Batgirl comic just like Batman 66 was a different comic from the regular Batman run.
Not all of us wanted a lighter Batgirl, not all of us are little immature teenager's who read Batgirl. Im a 32 year old male who loved Gails run because it was real, it was mature, it was a woman showing her strength and being able to be just as strong as the boys.
It showed us that heroes do suffer PTSD and how she was dealing with it. 
Than Burnside comes along and it's all about parties, selfies and shopping.
The new costume is unrealistic as it has no protection, its not something someone who had her spine broken would wear. Its not scary, its not intimidating, its just a cute little costume for cosplayers to copy and wear.
If they wanted to make it a little lighter cool I could deal with that, but why totally change everything? Why couldn't we still have Gail Simone's style and feel and look but just a little lighter. Why couldnt Batgitl still be in her amazing New 52 costume? 
It really upsets me when I think how much they have stuffed Batgirl up and how much they have made her go backwards.
Its just such a let down!

----------


## Leonardo

With rumors that the upcoming Harley Quinn movie will introduce Batgirl and The Birds of Prey, who would be your choice to play Babs?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> With rumors that the upcoming Harley Quinn movie will introduce Batgirl and The Birds of Prey, who would be your choice to play Babs?


Dakota Fanning

dakota_fanning.jpg

----------


## Carabas

> With rumors that the upcoming Harley Quinn movie will introduce Batgirl and The Birds of Prey, who would be your choice to play Babs?


More importantly: which Huntress will be in it?

----------


## Stormcrow

Batgirl faces Poison Ivy in December! This sounds like a lot of fun, always love it when these two are paired together.

*BATGIRL #6*
Written by HOPE LARSON
Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
RETURN TO BURNSIDE! On what should be a relaxing flight back home, Babs finds herself and her fellow passengers in mortal peril fromPoison Ivy? Batgirl must get to the bottom of Ivys attack and save the plane if she ever wants to see home again!
On sale DECEMBER 28  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Caivu

> Batgirl faces Poison Ivy in December! This sounds like a lot of fun, always love it when these two are paired together.
> 
> *BATGIRL #6*
> Written by HOPE LARSON
> Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “RETURN TO BURNSIDE”! On what should be a relaxing flight back home, Babs finds herself and her fellow passengers in mortal peril from…Poison Ivy? Batgirl must get to the bottom of Ivy’s attack and save the plane if she ever wants to see home again!
> On sale DECEMBER 28 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T


The funny thing is that this isn't the first time these two have fought on a plane:

Plane.JPG

----------


## Batgirll

I´m really excited to Batgirl# 6 Babs is great, and I was missing see Poison Ivy like a villain.

----------


## Leonardo

> Batgirl faces Poison Ivy in December! This sounds like a lot of fun, always love it when these two are paired together.
> 
> *BATGIRL #6*
> Written by HOPE LARSON
> Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “RETURN TO BURNSIDE”! On what should be a relaxing flight back home, Babs finds herself and her fellow passengers in mortal peril from…Poison Ivy? Batgirl must get to the bottom of Ivy’s attack and save the plane if she ever wants to see home again!
> On sale DECEMBER 28 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T


Can't wait for this! I'm kinda hoping it's like a buddy trip-type story. I'm dying for #3 to come out... that cover is by far my favorite of any Rebirth.

----------


## Godlike13

Might as well do BoP to.



BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #5
Written by JULIA BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
Art by CLAIRE ROE
Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“WHO IS ORACLE?” part five! The new Oracle has led the Birds of Prey all around Gotham City, forcing them to deal with the worst of what the city has to offer. Now Batgirl, Black Canary and Huntress will learn the reason when this impostor’s secrets are revealed! But Oracle isn’t the only one with a secret past…where did the mysterious Fenice come from, anyway?
On sale DECEMBER 14 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

----------


## Batgirll

Beautiful cover, I´m so excited to read this comics, Batgirl #3 please come soon, Batgirl and the birds of prey, all of this.

----------


## millernumber1

Woohoo!  :Smile:

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Both of them look awesome. Wasn't too keen on the situation with Babs for the more recent story in Batgirl, this one though looks fun so I'll pick it up. Oooh love the cover of the BoP, and Fenice seems like an interesting villain to have around. Also I'm wondering if Oracle is going to turn out to be Ulysses. He seems the sort to pull this stuff off, given his situation with Tim in the last Tec issues.

----------


## Soldy

Art of Mahmud Asrar:

I wish Babs' costume was something like that. My favorite one is from Year One though.

----------


## sorboares

> Art of Mahmud Asrar:
> 
> I wish Babs' costume was something like that. My favorite one is from Year One though.



That is a cool costume n so much better than silly Burnside Costume.  Still I wish they went back to her new 52 costume from the Gail Simone series!

----------


## millernumber1

I'm really curious - completely divorced from the Burnside stories, what's wrong with the Stewart/Tarr Batgirl costume? Other than the kinda overly trendy shoes, I like the lines of it.

----------


## godisawesome

I can't say if I particularly dislike it in comparison to her other costumes but it does strike me as the costume most defined by being "fashionable", for lack of a better term, than anything else. Sometimes, if she's paired with the more utilitarian designs of characters like Nightwing or shown in fanart alongside the other Batgirls, she looks like the one least prepared for actual combat and adventure and more like she's accessorize her suit.

I actually kind of like the design on its own, but there's something more traditionally appealing in her classic grey and blue, and my personal favorite Batgril designs are still Cass and Steph's; the former because it looks like a truly intimidating associate of Batman, and the former because I just love the way it looked sleek but armored while being colorful.

----------


## millernumber1

> I can't say if I particularly dislike it in comparison to her other costumes but it does strike me as the costume most defined by being "fashionable", for lack of a better term, than anything else. Sometimes, if she's paired with the more utilitarian designs of characters like Nightwing or shown in fanart alongside the other Batgirls, she looks like the one least prepared for actual combat and adventure and more like she's accessorize her suit.
> 
> I actually kind of like the design on its own, but there's something more traditionally appealing in her classic grey and blue, and my personal favorite Batgril designs are still Cass and Steph's; the former because it looks like a truly intimidating associate of Batman, and the former because I just love the way it looked sleek but armored while being colorful.


Interesting. I'm terrible at fashion, so I don't notice much except the boots fitting the "trendy" catagory (and the laces being ridiculous). But it feels like a uniform you could actually put on, which is perhaps against the whole "comics run on rule of cool" aesthetic of Batman, but I enjoy that aspect of it. And it's much better than "Batman lite for girls" of the n52, I think, so maybe that's why I enjoy it.

As for Cass and Steph's costumes - absolutely, though I don't love how you can't see poor Cass's face at all. But it does fit how scary her abilities are. Steph's is my favorite, not just because of who wears it, but because the ribbed sides are just so cool, and identifiable. I know it's Steph Batgirl whenever I see it - and I'm so glad Dustin Nguyen drew from it for her new Spoiler costume.

I dunno - when handled by artists like Claire Roe and Roge Antonio in Birds of Prey, Babs's new costume looks pretty cool.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm really curious - completely divorced from the Burnside stories, what's wrong with the Stewart/Tarr Batgirl costume? Other than the kinda overly trendy shoes, I like the lines of it.


I like the look of the suit, but my issue with it is that it is completely unarmored. It's a trade-off for being easy to transport and change into quickly in the field, but that's a pretty high cost.

----------


## Soldy

> I'm really curious - completely divorced from the Burnside stories, what's wrong with the Stewart/Tarr Batgirl costume? Other than the kinda overly trendy shoes, I like the lines of it.


It just doesn't look like a superhero costume, more like a cosplay one. Yeah, it's practical and more realistic but who needs realism in comics?

----------


## millernumber1

> I like the look of the suit, but my issue with it is that it is completely unarmored. It's a trade-off for being easy to transport and change into quickly in the field, but that's a pretty high cost.


The original suit was, but I sorta assumed that off panel, Babs reinforced the material with kevlar stuff. If she didn't, then I completely agree - it's stupid.




> It just doesn't look like a superhero costume, more like a cosplay one. Yeah, it's practical and more realistic but who needs realism in comics?


Haha, that's true enough, but especially in Batman comics, a bit of realism can help the story feel more engaging (not too realistic, but a bit more detail). I have to admit, I really like seeing Babs sitting around with the jacket unzipped. Makes her feel less ridiculous, at least to me.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm really curious - completely divorced from the Burnside stories, what's wrong with the Stewart/Tarr Batgirl costume? Other than the kinda overly trendy shoes, I like the lines of it.


I get the intentions behind it from a design perspective, and I will say that overall it's a very well-designed and striking outfit, but I've never been fans of Superhero suits that look more like cosplay's or real clothes then actual costumes, which the Burnside outfit often comes across as to me and it often feels weird to see it next to the other Batfamily members. 

It also feels more like a "first try" or makeshift costume then it does one for a fully-fledged and experienced Batgirl that Babs is (ostensibly) supposed to be. That was part of the reasoning for why the suit was used for her cameo in _Bad Blood_, because it was meant to indicate that Barbara had just started her career as a vigilante. 

I do like the purple though, evoking the '66 design. 

Personally, my preferred Batgirl look is the yellow and black TNBA/Year One costume.

----------


## Caivu

> The original suit was, but I sorta assumed that off panel, Babs reinforced the material with kevlar stuff. If she didn't, then I completely agree - it's stupid.


There's no indication she did.  A normal tiger was able to slash clear through the jacket at one point.

----------


## millernumber1

> There's no indication she did.  A normal tiger was able to slash clear through the jacket at one point.


True, I'd forgotton about that. Eh. Maybe in my headcanon, she was startled by the encounter and armored it afterwards.  Even if it's no longer in continuity, I like to believe there's still a spark of the Babs who gave Steph extra armoring on the spine in her new Batgirl costume.

----------


## sorboares

> I get the intentions behind it from a design perspective, and I will say that overall it's a very well-designed and striking outfit, but I've never been fans of Superhero suits that look more like cosplay's or real clothes then actual costumes, which the Burnside outfit often comes across as to me and it often feels weird to see it next to the other Batfamily members. 
> 
> It also feels more like a "first try" or makeshift costume then it does one for a fully-fledged and experienced Batgirl that Babs is (ostensibly) supposed to be. That was part of the reasoning for why the suit was used for her cameo in _Bad Blood_, because it was meant to indicate that Barbara had just started her career as a vigilante. 
> 
> I do like the purple though, evoking the '66 design. 
> 
> Personally, my preferred Batgirl look is the yellow and black TNBA/Year One costume.


Yeh totally agree that is why the Burnside costume was used in the Bad Blood movie. Its because Barbara was just starting her career as Batgirl so the Burnside costume makes sense for an un experienced fighter. 
But for someone as experienced as Barbara and for being through the Killing Joke and recovering from a spinal injury the Burnside costume is just silly. Makes no sense, its too childish and whe  you see her near the other Batfamily she just doesnt fit in. 
We need Gail Simones series costume back or something similar!

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeh totally agree that is why the Burnside costume was used in the Bad Blood movie. Its because Barbara was just starting her career as Batgirl so the Burnside costume makes sense for an un experienced fighter. 
> But for someone as experienced as Barbara and for being through the Killing Joke and recovering from a spinal injury the Burnside costume is just silly. Makes no sense, its too childish and whe  you see her near the other Batfamily she just doesnt fit in. 
> We need Gail Simones series costume back or something similar!


Or we could just put Steph or Cass back in the cowl, and Babs could be Oracle again. She's much better as it  :Smile:

----------


## Stormcrow

Suddenly feels like reading a thread from two years ago.

----------


## sorboares

> Or we could just put Steph or Cass back in the cowl, and Babs could be Oracle again. She's much better as it


No way Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is way better!

----------


## godisawesome

Then she should be written as such, especially in Rebirth. Barbara Gordon back in the cowl should have always been an unholy combination of Silver Age Batgirl attitude and fighting skills paired with the leadership, strategic mind, and overwhelming technological advantages of Oracle. Someone who's a peer of the Nightwing who could be Batman at the drop of a hat. Instead, we got a New 52 street level vigilante mostly portrayed as less of a threat than any of the boys, than a turn towards a more stylish variation on Steph's formula as a spunky college kid.

I'll hold that a Babs written respectful of her accrued bad assery is the  best Batgirl. But she better be written that way first.

----------


## Atlanta96

Yeah I think Barbara's redesign in 2014 was a big downgrade for her character. I was a pretty big fan of hers before then, but now she just feels like the most disengaged member of the Bat-family. She seems so out of place with them now both in terms of appearance and the tone of her stories. Like a kid-friendly version of a Batman character that was transplanted into the main Batman books.

----------


## Godlike13

Are they all suppose to be the same? There's nothing wrong with being directed at different markets, where trendy costumes have appeal, with stories where the focuse is on personal drama as much as it is on super heroics. If not more. In a world with Batwoman they had to start looking at different avanues with one of them. Having a different apparence and a different tone to her stories I actually see as a benefit. I might get a bit tired of the cartoony villains and threats, but I still think its better for her and her stories to offer something different than everybody else's.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Are they all suppose to be the same? There's nothing wrong with being directed at different markets, where trendy costumes have appeal, with stories where the focuse is on personal drama as much as it is on super heroics. If not more. In a world with Batwoman they had to start looking at different avanues with one of them.


I just feel that if she's going to be portrayed as a lite member of the Bat-family, she should be treated that way as well. She shouldn't be bossing around or outperforming characters with much tougher and challenging vigilante careers than Babs does right now. It doesn't happen often but that's how it should be.

----------


## sorboares

> Are they all suppose to be the same? There's nothing wrong with being directed at different markets, where trendy costumes have appeal, with stories where the focuse is on personal drama as much as it is on super heroics. If not more. In a world with Batwoman they had to start looking at different avanues with one of them.



From the look and feel of the New 52 Batgirl with Gail Simone and then it continues into the Burnside version its just is too different. 
Gails run Barbara/Batgirl was so mature, strong, has a armored costume, her look fits n feel fits in with the Batfamily, just because she is a girl it doesnt mean she has to be all immature and cartoony and child friendly, I want to see a girl/woman who is strong n mature and smart!
Burnside should have been like a prequel to the Gail Simone series not a continuation or it should have been like Batman 66 comic a totally different comic from the regular run!

----------


## Godlike13

> I just feel that if she's going to be portrayed as a lite member of the Bat-family, she should be treated that way as well. She shouldn't be bossing around or outperforming characters with much tougher and challenging vigilante careers than Babs does right now. It doesn't happen often but that's how it should be.


Just because her look and the tone of her stories are different doesn't mean she's lesser than the others or should be treated as such. What she is doing is no way less valid than what the others are doing, in fact she's been quite successful doing what she's doing.

----------


## sorboares

But thats how the look and tone makes it feel. They have made her feel lesser than the other characters!

----------


## Leonardo

> I get the intentions behind it from a design perspective, and I will say that overall it's a very well-designed and striking outfit, but I've never been fans of Superhero suits that look more like cosplay's or real clothes then actual costumes, which the Burnside outfit often comes across as to me and it often feels weird to see it next to the other Batfamily members. 
> 
> It also feels more like a "first try" or makeshift costume then it does one for a fully-fledged and experienced Batgirl that Babs is (ostensibly) supposed to be. That was part of the reasoning for why the suit was used for her cameo in _Bad Blood_, because it was meant to indicate that Barbara had just started her career as a vigilante.


I agree. I love the Gail Simone-era armored costume. They say that the clothes make the man/woman--in any well-told story, the clothes tell a lot about the character's background (think Dragonball Z). So it makes sense that Babs would take the extra effort to protect her spine. The re-design doesn't really reflect the characteristics of Babs that make her unique. Instead, it's more of the makers trying to make her unique just for the sake of it. Just my opinion!

----------


## Caivu

> I want to see a girl/woman who is strong n mature and smart!


In the Burnside era, Barbara:

-Tricks a cyborg into scanning a QR code that uploads a disabling computer worm into his system

- Later beats the crap out of that same cyborg after being unconscious for almost a full day

- Wrestles and outruns a tiger after tackling it out of the air

- Helps clear a building full of terrorists

- Survives falling from the Burnside Bridge, which is 275 feet tall, and lands in the water without injury

- Cuts open her own neck with a Batarang to disable her neural chip to stop it being controlled

- Memorizes a map after just one glimpse

- Confuses an advanced AI to stall it so it can be shut down

-Wrote a predictive crime algorithm based on her own brain scan

And that's not even everything. Do these somehow not fit your criteria...?

----------


## RedQueen

I agree she accomplished a lot in Burnside, I wasn't a fan of the personally life stuff though. but yeah I thought some of the fights were pretty rad.

Only thing I don't buy would be that Babs needed to team up with Steph to take down an expert martial artist. I get that Spoiler was progressing but Barbara at this stage should be so advance to take someone of a high caliber down or least put up a massive fight. I wouldn't even think for Babs to let someone as new as Steph to join in the fight just because of that hero code to not put the newbies into that serious of situation right away.

I'm glad that Babs is getting a journey into martial arts in Rebirth, because I kind of think she lost a bit of street cred with her relying so much on side characters to help her.

----------


## millernumber1

> Then she should be written as such, especially in Rebirth. Barbara Gordon back in the cowl should have always been an unholy combination of Silver Age Batgirl attitude and fighting skills paired with the leadership, strategic mind, and overwhelming technological advantages of Oracle. Someone who's a peer of the Nightwing who could be Batman at the drop of a hat. Instead, we got a New 52 street level vigilante mostly portrayed as less of a threat than any of the boys, than a turn towards a more stylish variation on Steph's formula as a spunky college kid.
> 
> I'll hold that a Babs written respectful of her accrued bad assery is the  best Batgirl. But she better be written that way first.


Well said. Why did Babs lose her network of operatives when she became Batgirl again? And her ability to use technology to stop crime, which should be enhanced, not downgraded, by mobility. Why doesn't she have something like Tim Drake's wrist computer, or better (since she should be better than Tim at computers - a cowl computer with a full Oracle link)? Babs has not proved anything to me except that more people know her name. Not to mention the Burnside run turned her time as the premiere intelligence operative of the DC Universe into a bad Skynet creator.




> Yeah I think Barbara's redesign in 2014 was a big downgrade for her character. I was a pretty big fan of hers before then, but now she just feels like the most disengaged member of the Bat-family. She seems so out of place with them now both in terms of appearance and the tone of her stories. Like a kid-friendly version of a Batman character that was transplanted into the main Batman books.


I think that's very deliberate - DC is deliberately trying to appeal to both the DC Super Hero Girls audience and normal Batfamily fans, and the result is too much in the middle to really please either. I hated the Burnside run (and to be fair, the Simone run before it), but I'm enjoying the Larson run as a fun comic with vague connections to the character I liked before. But Birds of Prey is moving much more strongly in the direction that I would like to see from Babs - hopefully once they resolve the Oracle plot, they will build her back into the pillar of the superhero universe she was before.




> Are they all suppose to be the same? There's nothing wrong with being directed at different markets, where trendy costumes have appeal, with stories where the focuse is on personal drama as much as it is on super heroics. If not more. In a world with Batwoman they had to start looking at different avanues with one of them. Having a different apparence and a different tone to her stories I actually see as a benefit. I might get a bit tired of the cartoony villains and threats, but I still think its better for her and her stories to offer something different than everybody else's.


Batgirl and the Birds of Prey has a very different tone from Batwoman (Rucka, Blackman/Williams, Andreyko, and Tynion), while still portraying Barbara as the kind of figure who can stand up to Batman without being disrespectful. I don't mind a different tone, and I don't mind appealing to the DC Super Hero Girls demographic - but they should do that in a DC Super Hero Girls book, instead of trying this in the mainstream DC Universe.

----------


## millernumber1

> In the Burnside era, Barbara:
> 
> -Tricks a cyborg into scanning a QR code that uploads a disabling computer worm into his system
> 
> - Later beats the crap out of that same cyborg after being unconscious for almost a full day
> 
> - Wrestles and outruns a tiger after tackling it out of the air
> 
> - Helps clear a building full of terrorists
> ...


Those are all feats of skill, not maturity. She's smart, yes, but she lacks all the wisdom she possessed as Oracle. And that's largely due to the way they keep de-aging her so that she's the same age as Nightwing. Her waffling about Frankie, the warping of her time as Oracle to creating the evil AI that she shuts down, and her ridiculously annoying romantic life all work against her real accomplishments.




> I agree she accomplished a lot in Burnside, I wasn't a fan of the personally life stuff though. but yeah I thought some of the fights were pretty rad.
> 
> Only thing I don't buy would be that Babs needed to team up with Steph to take down an expert martial artist. I get that Spoiler was progressing but Barbara at this stage should be so advance to take someone of a high caliber down or least put up a massive fight. I wouldn't even think for Babs to let someone as new as Steph to join in the fight just because of that hero code to not put the newbies into that serious of situation right away.
> 
> I'm glad that Babs is getting a journey into martial arts in Rebirth, because I kind of think she lost a bit of street cred with her relying so much on side characters to help her.


As a huge fan of Steph (obviously), I disagree. Additionally, I don't think Babs needed to team up with Steph because of martial art skills - the first time they teamed up, it was to save Steph's life, and the second and third times, it was because the foe they faced was too numerous (and spread out) for anyone but maybe Cass or Batman to take down. I actually enjoyed Batgirl issues 46-52 a lot more than anything previous, because Batgirl seemed to be forming a new Birds of Prey and exercising the things that set her apart from Batwoman while still being a top tier superhero - mentoring and leading field operations.

----------


## Caivu

> Those are all feats of skill, not maturity. She's smart, yes, but she lacks all the wisdom she possessed as Oracle. And that's largely due to the way they keep de-aging her so that she's the same age as Nightwing. Her waffling about Frankie, the warping of her time as Oracle to creating the evil AI that she shuts down, and her ridiculously annoying romantic life all work against her real accomplishments.


What specifically is immature about her, though? She never struck me as that. Just because she might be lacking in her previous wisdom doesn't mean she's immature.

----------


## millernumber1

> What specifically is immature about her, though? She never struck me as that. Just because she might be lacking in her previous wisdom doesn't mean she's immature.


Getting blackout drunk in the first issue, letting popularity go to her head so much that it interferes with her relationships and her crimefighting, letting her anger control her so that she creates the evil AI instead of becoming the positive force of Oracle, and I hate to repeat it, but her romantic life (until Luke) was really immature. You could handwave some of these away as "this if the first arc after Simone's grimdark silliness, so she's recovering and finding her balance from all that nonsense," but it doesn't really make her look more mature, I believe. Not to mention whining about her friends and former roommate not being available because she's on her honeymoon. Elena Carrillo's reviews of the Burnside run also detail (sometimes excruciatingly) Babs's immaturity during that period (http://batman-news.com/author/elena-carrillo/).

And as I said above, I thought by the end of the arc, Babs was showing a lot more maturity by mentoring people like Steph, Harper, and Frankie as new heros.

----------


## Caivu

Huh. I somehow missed all of that. I can see it now.

----------


## Godlike13

> Batgirl and the Birds of Prey has a very different tone from Batwoman (Rucka, Blackman/Williams, Andreyko, and Tynion), while still portraying Barbara as the kind of figure who can stand up to Batman without being disrespectful. I don't mind a different tone, and I don't mind appealing to the DC Super Hero Girls demographic - but they should do that in a DC Super Hero Girls book, instead of trying this in the mainstream DC Universe.


Why? If there is a market for it, and people respond to it (which they have), why shouldn't DC capitalize on it in the mainstream DC Universe. Variety in tones and directions is not a bad thing. Different books, and different characters, should offer different things. Not everybody is gonna like everything, but thats ok. It doesn't make what they're doing with Babs less valid, or make her less than other characters, and it doesn't even stop them from doing different thing with Batgirl at the same time.

----------


## millernumber1

> Why? If there is a market for it, and people respond to it (which they have), why shouldn't DC capitalize on it in the mainstream DC Universe. Variety in tones and directions is not a bad thing. Different books, and different characters, should offer different things. Not everybody is gonna like everything, but thats ok. It doesn't make what they're doing with Babs less valid, or make her less than other characters, and it doesn't even stop them from doing different thing with Batgirl at the same time.


I mean, you're right - it's their book, it's their appeal to the market, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just disappointing to some longtime fans like me who would prefer her to be Oracle, or at least have the maturity and experience of Oracle, and interconnected with the rest of the books.  Sorry for the phrasing. I disagree with their choice, but it's not "wrong" for them to do it.

I do think that it really depends on what you mean by "less than other characters" - in terms of less interesting or worthwhile, absolutely I agree. Current Babs is a very interesting character, and I enjoy reading her series. But in terms of an in-universe measure of importance and skill? I don't think that's quite as subjective.

----------


## Stormcrow

DC announced Christian Wildgoose as the Batgirl artist taking over with issue #7 as Babs returns to Burnside. I'll miss Albuquerque but this looks good!

However, I am not sold on this "Son of Penguin" storyline, that kind of characters NEVER work. And yet another shady love interest for Babs? Really?

----------


## batsgrayson

The new artist looks good. That arc though... Stop giving her a new love interest for awhile, okay? Just stick with one and actually try to develop the relationship.

----------


## AcesX1X

i liked today's issue a lot.  sad to see this artist go.  not sure how i feel about batgirl dating the child of such an ugly goblin like the penguin

----------


## millernumber1

Wow, those preview images are gorgeous. Much as I love Albuquerque, there's a sketchiness to his current style on Batgirl that I'm not as big a fan of as, for example, when he did half of the Robin/Spoiler special with Chuck Dixon. Maybe it's the inker, maybe it's just a change in styles, but I really love the clean lines Wildgoose has here.

I agree with the "c'mon, another bad love interest" groans. I think that Larson is doing a good job with Babs handling Kai, not getting too hung up on him and making mature decisions, but I kinda want her to just hero for a while with friends, male and female, and not have half the plot revolve around love interests that are going nowhere. But at least it's not as bad as the first half of the Burnside run, where there was just a soap opera tangle of dropped romantic threads that were completely pointless. Even Luke and Babs, while sweet, wasn't handled with respect for either character. So far, Larson seems to be much more thoughtful about the way she's doing things.

----------


## RedQueen

It better be a slow burn because no way would Babs get involved with someone so close to an enemy straight away, no matter if they're good or not.

And goddammit I hate Babs hooking up with civilian characters so I hope he's got something beyond being a techie. I wouldn't mind him being what Catwoman is to Bats for Barbara because if Babs is having a love life then at least make it a bit spicy. So I'm kind of hoping he takes after his father, but NOT the physical aspect because Oswald is, well, Oswald.

----------


## Drako

Is she going to have a new date for every arc? And people say that Dick is a ladies' man.

----------


## millernumber1

What'd people think of Babs's issue this week? I enjoyed it, especially with Babs kicking Kai to the curb. She's not uncaring, but she's way more mature in this run than the last one. The plot seems to be a bit more solid, too - or maybe I'm just getting into the flow of a new country every month.

----------


## Batgirll

I loved this insue, Babs, is great, she fall in the first fight, but she learned with this, to win after, she was smart about Kai, she was a little confused, but she is not a stupid girl and she is great like detective. I love this girl.
And about the son of Pinguin, well, if well written can be a great story, I´m curious, the risk is be only other story cliche.
P.S.: Ethan in sinopse looks like a charmig and handsome guy, how? I donpt know, maybe he is adopted.

----------


## DoctorWho

> *Getting blackout drunk in the first issue, letting popularity go to her head so much that it interferes with her relationships and her crimefighting, letting her anger control her so that she creates the evil AI instead of becoming the positive force of Oracle*, and I hate to repeat it, but her romantic life (until Luke) was really immature. You could handwave some of these away as "this if the first arc after Simone's grimdark silliness, so she's recovering and finding her balance from all that nonsense," but it doesn't really make her look more mature, I believe. Not to mention whining about her friends and former roommate not being available because she's on her honeymoon. Elena Carrillo's reviews of the Burnside run also detail (sometimes excruciatingly) Babs's immaturity during that period (http://batman-news.com/author/elena-carrillo/).
> 
> And as I said above, I thought by the end of the arc, Babs was showing a lot more maturity by mentoring people like Steph, Harper, and Frankie as new heros.


Honestly, I think those mistakes are what really made the Burnside era interesting. Oracle was quite TOO good. I wouldn't expect a woman in her early 20s to not make mistakes, and I wouldn't even blame Batman for getting blackout drunk; the fact Burnside Babs isn't as perfect and mature as Oracle was makes her more relatable to me. I totally agree about the romantic life though, it was so forced and very annoying.

----------


## godisawesome

> Honestly, I think those mistakes are what really made the Burnside era interesting. Oracle was quite TOO good. I wouldn't expect a woman in her early 20s to not make mistakes, and I wouldn't even blame Batman for getting blackout drunk; the fact Burnside Babs isn't as perfect and mature as Oracle was makes her more relatable to me. I totally agree about the romantic life though, it was so forced and very annoying.


I find that opinion on blackout drinking for Batgirl to be an interesting difference in the way some of us view both the heroes and ourselves; I immediately dismiss the idea that an intelligent young person, which pretty much all the Batkids are, wouldn't be stupid enough to get *blackout drunk.* But I also hail from a largely tea-totaling family, so to me, blackout drinking _automatically_ equates to a certain lack of self control or gullibility, because my *personal* interpretation of that kind of drinking is that it's a foolish decision based off an erroneous analysis of the placebo effect of the "party hard= fun, party harder= more fun!" thought process. I know that's at least a somewhat inaccurate way to look at it, but it plays into the way I view the characters. Since I consider all the "orthodox" Batfamily members to be of exceptional self-discipline, early on-set wisdom, and "upstanding" life choices, hearing of Barbara getting blackout drunk made me kind just label the book as "stereotypical and shallow portrayal of hedonistic college life" and I never felt the desire to pick it up.

I mean, I expect flaws in my characters, but for the Batcharacters I expect more personality flaws that stand out compared to the general portrayal of their peers, and for them to be the kinds of flaws that even a wise man may have. The hard partying flaws always strike me as more of a Green Arrow thing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Honestly, I think those mistakes are what really made the Burnside era interesting. Oracle was quite TOO good. I wouldn't expect a woman in her early 20s to not make mistakes, and I wouldn't even blame Batman for getting blackout drunk; the fact Burnside Babs isn't as perfect and mature as Oracle was makes her more relatable to me. I totally agree about the romantic life though, it was so forced and very annoying.


I strongly disagree that Oracle was perfect - I adored the way she was too controlling, had difficulty with her mentoring relationships with Cass and especially Helena - the arc where she manipulates Huntress and ends up almost destroying their relationship is a really great bit of writing by Gail Simone.




> I find that opinion on blackout drinking for Batgirl to be an interesting difference in the way some of us view both the heroes and ourselves; I immediately dismiss the idea that an intelligent young person, which pretty much all the Batkids are, wouldn't be stupid enough to get *blackout drunk.* But I also hail from a largely tea-totaling family, so to me, blackout drinking _automatically_ equates to a certain lack of self control or gullibility, because my *personal* interpretation of that kind of drinking is that it's a foolish decision based off an erroneous analysis of the placebo effect of the "party hard= fun, party harder= more fun!" thought process. I know that's at least a somewhat inaccurate way to look at it, but it plays into the way I view the characters. Since I consider all the "orthodox" Batfamily members to be of exceptional self-discipline, early on-set wisdom, and "upstanding" life choices, hearing of Barbara getting blackout drunk made me kind just label the book as "stereotypical and shallow portrayal of hedonistic college life" and I never felt the desire to pick it up.
> 
> I mean, I expect flaws in my characters, but for the Batcharacters I expect more personality flaws that stand out compared to the general portrayal of their peers, and for them to be the kinds of flaws that even a wise man may have. The hard partying flaws always strike me as more of a Green Arrow thing.


Also hailing from a largely non-drinking family, and the blackout drinking for Babs was also a huge turnoff for me in the Burnside run. In addition to not fitting with any portrayal of Babs in anything I've ever read, it's not even a particularly well-used bit of characterization. I agree that Batman and all of his family are not the type to do that kind of thing - not even the "wilder" ones like Steph or Jason. Babs and Bruce in particular, though, because of their obsession with control, really don't fit the "partying" type.

----------


## Godlike13

She didn't go in willfully thinking that she was gonna get blackout drunk. She started drinking and it happened, and it was never suppose to be in character or fit in with a previous portrayal. That was the whole point actually. She was purposely trying something she wouldn't usually do, in effort to change her situation and let loose, but because it was out of character and she wasn't the parting type, she didn't really know what she was doing. So she did it poorly, got too drunk, and created a mess for herself. And doing things that Batman and all of his family wouldn't do is not a bad thing.

----------


## Carabas

> Honestly, I think those mistakes are what really made the Burnside era interesting. Oracle was quite TOO good. I wouldn't expect a woman in her early 20s to not make mistakes, and I wouldn't even blame Batman for getting blackout drunk; the fact Burnside Babs isn't as perfect and mature as Oracle was makes her more relatable to me. I totally agree about the romantic life though, it was so forced and very annoying.


Oracle was never in her early twenties though. I think of all Bat-characters, Babs was the one hit hardest with the de-age stick when the New 52 happened.

----------


## DoctorWho

> I strongly disagree that Oracle was perfect - I adored the way she was too controlling, had difficulty with her mentoring relationships with Cass and especially Helena - the arc where she manipulates Huntress and ends up almost destroying their relationship is a really great bit of writing by Gail Simone.


My choice of words wasn't very fair at calling Oracle "perfect", but my point still stands in that Babs, as Oracle, was good at pretty much everything that required thinking. She was nearly always portrayed as the one who knew exactly what to do when the situation called for it, and even for a genius that can be very unrealistic, but I get the appeal.




> Oracle was never in her early twenties though. I think of all Bat-characters, Babs was the one hit hardest with the de-age stick when the New 52 happened.


Yeah, and that's the point actually. Everybody got younger with the New 52, but the characters tended to be written in the same way their older versions were (and some as even more mature than their older versions), I won't expect a Barbara in her early 20s to have the same attitudes and decisions of a Barbara in her early 30s. We could discuss the act of de-ageing the characters, but then we'd have to start a conversation about the N52 as a whole.

EDIT: Now I checked that my original comment seemed to suggest that Oracle was in her early 20s. Wasn't what I meant, I'm sorry.

----------


## DoctorWho

*BATGIRL: A CELEBRATION OF 50 YEARS HC*
Written by GARDNER FOX, CHUCK DIXON, KELLEY PUCKETT, GAIL SIMONE and others
Art by CARMINE INFANTINO, MARCOS MARTIN, DAMION SCOTT, CAMERON STEWART, BABS TARR and others
Cover by MARCOS MARTIN
Some of Batgirl’s greatest adventures are collected in this new hardcover! Using her brain to outsmart her opponents, Batgirl stands strong against her enemies. Whether working with a team or venturing out on her own, Batgirl’s adaptability to situations makes her one of the most versatile and popular characters in the DC Universe.
On sale FEBRUARY 15 • 384 pg, FC, $39.99 US


*BATGIRL: AN ADULT COLORING BOOK TP*
Art by BABS TARR, CLIFF CHIANG, TERRY DODSON, CARMINE INFANTINO and others
Cover by BABS TARR
DC presents Batgirl in a whole new way: in black and white, on heavy stock suitable for coloring! Batgirl stars in a new coloring book focusing on her greatest covers, splash pages and more by some of comics’ top artists!
On sale FEBRUARY 22 • 96 pg, B&W, 7.5” x 8.5”, $15.99 US

----------


## DoctorWho

Batgirl #4 (EXCLUSIVE PREVIEW):
http://www.cbr.com/batgirl-4-3/

----------


## millernumber1

> *BATGIRL: A CELEBRATION OF 50 YEARS HC*
> Written by GARDNER FOX, CHUCK DIXON, KELLEY PUCKETT, GAIL SIMONE and others
> Art by CARMINE INFANTINO, MARCOS MARTIN, DAMION SCOTT, CAMERON STEWART, BABS TARR and others
> Cover by MARCOS MARTIN
> Some of Batgirl’s greatest adventures are collected in this new hardcover! Using her brain to outsmart her opponents, Batgirl stands strong against her enemies. Whether working with a team or venturing out on her own, Batgirl’s adaptability to situations makes her one of the most versatile and popular characters in the DC Universe.
> On sale FEBRUARY 15 • 384 pg, FC, $39.99 US


I love Batgirl Year One, so it's great to see its iconic images on the cover of this 50th anniversary anthology. I was really underwhelmed by the Wonder Woman 75th this year, so I'm apprehensive. It seems that Cass will get an issue, with Damion Scott credited - but I hope against hope that Steph will get an issue as well (I would pump for #3, though I'm expecting #1, if anything). And we're almost certainly getting Batgirl #35, though I'm curious about the Simone entry - possibly Batgirl #1?

----------


## DoctorWho

> I love Batgirl Year One, so it's great to see its iconic images on the cover of this 50th anniversary anthology. I was really underwhelmed by the Wonder Woman 75th this year, so I'm apprehensive. It seems that Cass will get an issue, with Damion Scott credited - but I hope against hope that Steph will get an issue as well (I would pump for #3, though I'm expecting #1, if anything). And we're almost certainly getting Batgirl #35, though I'm curious about the Simone entry - possibly Batgirl #1?


Yeah, that's probably my favorite Batgirl image of ALL-TIME. But I don't see much sense at having both Cassie and Stephanie in this since it's 50 years of Barbara Gordon not Batgirl. Batte Kane debuted as Batgirl around five years before Barbara...

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, that's probably my favorite Batgirl image of ALL-TIME. But I don't see much sense at having both Cassie and Stephanie in this since it's 50 years of Barbara Gordon not Batgirl. Batte Kane debuted as Batgirl around five years before Barbara...


That's not how they published the 75th anniversary of Robin, though. Every Robin, including Stephanie, Carrie, and the robot version from the One Million issue, was represented (though not the future Robin named Tris who was on a generation spaceship from Robin Annual #5, from the Legends of a Dead Earth event).

I think Steph and Cass deserve an issue in the 50 year celebration, especially since Barbara mentored both of them.

----------


## DoctorWho

> That's not how they published the 75th anniversary of Robin, though. Every Robin, including Stephanie, Carrie, and the robot version from the One Million issue, was represented (though not the future Robin named Tris who was on a generation spaceship from Robin Annual #5, from the Legends of a Dead Earth event).
> 
> I think Steph and Cass deserve an issue in the 50 year celebration, especially since Barbara mentored both of them.


Yeah, but that was different because it was the anniversary of both Dick Grayson and the title of Robin. The title of battle of Batgirl was introduced with Bette, not Barbara. So we're celebrating 50 years of Barbara, not 50 years of Batgirl.

----------


## millernumber1

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

----------


## joybeans

> I love Batgirl Year One, so it's great to see its iconic images on the cover of this 50th anniversary anthology. I was really underwhelmed by the Wonder Woman 75th this year, so I'm apprehensive. It seems that Cass will get an issue, with Damion Scott credited - but I hope against hope that Steph will get an issue as well (I would pump for #3, though I'm expecting #1, if anything). And we're almost certainly getting Batgirl #35, though I'm curious about the Simone entry - possibly Batgirl #1?


Based on who is credited, we'll probably get Detective Comics #369, something from Batgirl Year One, something from the Cassandra Cain run, something from Simone's Batgirl, and something from Burnside. Seeing as Cameron Stewart is listed as an artist, I'm guessing that Stephanie's adventure from Leviathan Strikes is in there as well.

Other likely issues would include a bunch of backups from 'Tec, something from Batman Family, possibly Puckett's Barbara one-shot, and hopefully something from BQM's run.




> Yeah, but that was different because it was the anniversary of both Dick Grayson and the title of Robin. The title of battle of Batgirl was introduced with Bette, not Barbara. So we're celebrating 50 years of Barbara, not 50 years of Batgirl.


Bette Kane was introduced as "Bat-Girl", and for all intents and purposes, DC doesn't really consider Bette Kane to be a proper Batgirl, given that the mantle never had much pull until Barbara came around. The solicit copy also refers to her as "Batgirl" and isn't particularly specific to Barbara.

----------


## millernumber1

> Based on who is credited, we'll probably get Detective Comics #369, something from Batgirl Year One, something from the Cassandra Cain run, something from Simone's Batgirl, and something from Burnside. Seeing as Cameron Stewart is listed as an artist, I'm guessing that Stephanie's adventure from Leviathan Strikes is in there as well.
> 
> Other likely issues would include a bunch of backups from 'Tec, something from Batman Family, possibly Puckett's Barbara one-shot, and hopefully something from BQM's run.


I didn't catch that Stewart was listed as artist. Having Morrison's issue with Steph as Batgirl makes sense from a "Morrison is a gigantic name, let's try to boost sales with that" perspective. I would not expect more than one issue of the non-Babs Batgirls to make it into the series, sadly, so if they go with the Morrison/Stewart issue, that's probably it for Steph. I mean, it's not a bad issue, but I would much, much prefer Batgirl #3, with the oath between Babs and Steph (and Steph's official costume unveiling). I'm currently betting on Batgirl #1 for Cass, since it's a really nice starting point, and it has a significant Babs component as well as Cass.

However, I believe the Wonder Woman 75th collection solicits listed some artists who did pin-ups, rather than full issues, so it's possible (I hope) that it's one of Stewart's covers of pin-ups of Burnside Babsgirl instead. (Hopefully, from my perspective  :Smile:  ).

The collections I've read divide into roughly 5-20 year "eras."  I'm betting that they'll be Golden Age (up to Year One), 90s, 00s, and 10s. They'll almost certainly have an issue of Year One, with that cover and solicit text. Perhaps an issue of Batman Adventures, as well?

----------


## DoctorWho

> Bette Kane was introduced as "Bat-Girl", and for all intents and purposes, DC doesn't really consider Bette Kane to be a proper Batgirl, given that the mantle never had much pull until Barbara came around. The solicit copy also refers to her as "Batgirl" and isn't particularly specific to Barbara.


But Bette has been included when mentioning "all the Batgirls" before:


I know she doesn't have the impact of the other three, and she's nobody's favorite, but it would be a shame to celebrate the legacy of Batgirl and not include her...

----------


## sorboares

Now this is Batgirl. Why can't we get this amazing Batgirl in many live action movies and the comics? 
I cant wait to order this statue!
Perfection...
http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/10/25/b...rime-1-studio/

----------


## Caivu

Barbara's entry in the new DC Encyclopedia:

20161028_153936.jpg

----------


## DoctorWho

I loved issue #4, but am I the only one who didn't understand exactly what Kai has done wrong? And, how could he not even suspect Batgirl and Barbara are one and the same? Batgirl showed up in every country they were!

----------


## joybeans

> Barbara's entry in the new DC Encyclopedia:
> 
> 20161028_153936.jpg


Are there larger versions of these images?

----------


## Caivu

> Are there larger versions of these images?


I can retake some pictures.

----------


## dominus

> Barbara's entry in the new DC Encyclopedia:
> 
> 20161028_153936.jpg





> Are there larger versions of these images?





> I can retake some pictures.


Is it that painful to read with both versions of Babs? It looks like they crammed all of that onto those two pages.

----------


## Caivu

> Is it that painful to read with both versions of Babs? It looks like they crammed all of that onto those two pages.


Not sure what you mean by both versions. The encyclopedia uses each character's most recent origins, so it's New 52 for the most part for everyone. Some entries have an "On the Record" box that, if applicable, briefly describes their pre-Flashpoint versions.

----------


## dominus

> Not sure what you mean by both versions. The encyclopedia uses each character's most recent origins, so it's New 52 for the most part for everyone. Some entries have an "On the Record" box that, if applicable, briefly describes their pre-Flashpoint versions.


Hey, here's what she did and accomplished for the last 45 years... and then this happened.

----------


## Caivu

> Hey, here's what she did and accomplished for the last 45 years... and then this happened.


The main entry is just her most current version, so New 52 only.

----------


## DoctorWho

*BATGIRL #8*
Written by HOPE LARSON • Art and cover by CHRIS WILDGOOSE • Variant cover by FRANCIS MANAPUL
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“Son of Penguin” part two! It’s hard enough to juggle a new boyfriend when you’re not secretly investigating him for super-villainy! But is Batgirl dating Ethan Cobblepot to get to bottom of his new tech business…or could she actually like him? Plus, Magpie strikes!
On sale FEBRUARY 22 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T


*BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #7*
Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON • Art by CLAIRE ROE • Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE • Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“VALENTINE’S DAY” part one! The new Oracle is now embedded in the Birds of Prey’s lives…and they’re going to have to make it work whether they like it or not! Plus, Huntress has decided to make Gotham her permanent home—but that means venturing into the most dangerous world of all…the Gotham City real-estate market! Perhaps an abandoned amusement park with a murder slide is up her alley?
On sale FEBRUARY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T


*BATGIRL VOL. 1: BEYOND BURNSIDE TP*
Written by HOPE LARSON
Art and cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
In order to up her game after the events of the Battle of Burnside, Babs travels to Japan on a quest to train with one of her all time heroes. But when a chance meeting with an old friend puts a target on her back, Batgirl may need to use her new skills (and rack up a few more stamps in her passport) to solve a deadly mystery. Collects BATGIRL #1-6.
On sale MARCH 22 • 144 pg, FC, $16.99 US

----------


## Stormcrow

I love that they're _finally_ adapting the Beware the Batman version of Magpie into the comics, and she's a perfect villain for Batgirl.

But I am done with Hope Larson's lackluster run... so tired of seeing Babs "juggle a new boyfriend" every two seconds.

----------


## Frontier

I hope Batgirl shows up in the next major Batfamily event...

----------


## Caivu

I like the cover for the first TPB. It's always nice when new art is used for those covers.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I like the cover for the first TPB. It's always nice when new art is used for those covers.


Agreed. Looks like they're trying to match the style of the rest of the Rebirth trades, which featured the character close-up from the one-shots. I think the cover for Harley Quinn's trade is new as well?

Wonder if they'll do the same for Detective Comics which also didn't get a Rebirth one-shot.

----------


## Lucas 35

[IMG]http://images*****.com/infographics/Evolution-of-Batgirl-Infographic.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Frontier

Nice rundown of all the Batwomen looks  :Smile: .

----------


## Carabas

Laughed out loud at Misfit's entry. 

Dark Vengeance!

----------


## geomon

And here I thought the Burnside suit was the worst it could possibly be. That DC Super Hero Girls one is just....wow.

----------


## Caivu

> And here I thought the Burnside suit was the worst it could possibly be. That DC Super Hero Girls one is just....wow.


It's a perfectly good design given the target audience and the setting. Both are, come to think of it.

----------


## sorboares

> And here I thought the Burnside suit was the worst it could possibly be. That DC Super Hero Girls one is just....wow.


Yeh Burnside and DC Superhero Girls costumes aren't good at all.  
But i saw a new DC Superhero Girls Batgirl figure with a cowl on n its an improvement from the hoodie. 
Still wish we had Gail Simones costume back in the comics or very similar...Arkham Knight Batgirls costume is perfection!

----------


## Stormcrow

The long overdue Batgirl/Supergirl team-up is finally happening! I love Bengal's portrayal of both of them and Iñaki Miranda did great work in Catwoman, but dammit why did it have to be Hope Larson...

*BATGIRL ANNUAL #1*
Written by HOPE LARSONArt by INAKI MIRANDACover by BENGAL
Batgirl and Supergirl must team up to break into Arkham Asylum! In this all-new Rebirth annual Batgirl must seek Supergirls help to solve a mystery that leads them to the heart of the most insane insane asylum there is! But what they discoverand who they discoverin Arkham will lead to a much, much bigger story!
On sale MARCH 29  48 pg, FC, $4.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Frontier

I don't know what I'm more happier for, that Bengal and Inaki Miranda are still doing DC work or that we're *finally* getting a proper Batgirl/Supergirl team-up  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Godlike13

Ya its nice to see Bengal back.

----------


## Batgirll

I was hoping Batgirl and Supergirl team up since start the Rebirth. I´m really glad with this.
Now, what are they finding in Arkham?

----------


## noiseredux

woah. That annual looks awesome!!

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know what I'm more happier for, that Bengal and Inaki Miranda are still doing DC work or that we're *finally* getting a proper Batgirl/Supergirl team-up .


Bengal is great - but aren't they still on the digital Supergirl book?

Even though Miranda's stuff for Catwoman was surprisingly good, I'm still bitter about the incredibly terrible issue of Birds of Prey they did for Death of Oracle. I'm worried.

Also, what was wrong with Batgirl #14?  :Wink: 

Batgirl_Vol_3_14.jpg

----------


## noiseredux

^was that issue really 3D?

----------


## millernumber1

> ^was that issue really 3D?


No, sadly. But it was great!

----------


## Frontier

> Bengal is great - but aren't they still on the digital Supergirl book?
> 
> Even though Miranda's stuff for Catwoman was surprisingly good, I'm still bitter about the incredibly terrible issue of Birds of Prey they did for Death of Oracle. I'm worried.
> 
> Also, what was wrong with Batgirl #14? 
> 
> Batgirl_Vol_3_14.jpg


Well, first proper Babs/Kara team-up in the current continuity, that is  :Smile: .

----------


## Babs

> The long overdue Batgirl/Supergirl team-up is finally happening! I love Bengal's portrayal of both of them and Iñaki Miranda did great work in Catwoman, but dammit why did it have to be Hope Larson...
> 
> *BATGIRL ANNUAL #1*
> Written by HOPE LARSONArt by INAKI MIRANDACover by BENGAL
> Batgirl and Supergirl must team up to break into Arkham Asylum! In this all-new Rebirth annual Batgirl must seek Supergirls help to solve a mystery that leads them to the heart of the most insane insane asylum there is! But what they discoverand who they discoverin Arkham will lead to a much, much bigger story!
> On sale MARCH 29  48 pg, FC, $4.99 US  RATED T



WOOOOW!!!!!!!


About DAMN TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BATGIRL V SUPERGIRL: Dawn of the SBFFS!!!!

----------


## RedQueen

> Well, first proper Babs/Kara team-up in the current continuity, that is .


Yeah, it's good to see them together again. It's been ages I think. Beforehand they teamed up a couple of times when Babs was Batgirl and then Bruce Timm came along and pretty much immortalized that friendship in BTAS. Also they have a dynamic in DC Superhero Girls.

----------


## noiseredux

I'm bummed that this is still 3 months away. :\

----------


## Aahz



----------


## dietrich

> 


So achingly cute.
Cass has Bats, Alfie and her brothers in her basket.

----------


## Batgirll

Our girl, Barbara is a 50th now, congratulations, to the girl who teaches that when the life hits strong, you go and hits stronger


BarbaraGordonBatgirlAndOrcaleYellow.jpg.

----------


## Batgirll

I read one theory in bleeding cool, about the Batgirl annual. Tha maybe, the person that they will rescue is the Saturn Girl!!! They said this because she will be in Supergirl arc in April, and how she is now in the Arkhan, and the annual will be there, so...

----------


## RedQueen

> I read one theory in bleeding cool, about the Batgirl annual. Tha maybe, the person that they will rescue is the Saturn Girl!!! They said this because she will be in Supergirl arc in April, and how she is now in the Arkhan, and the annual will be there, so...


I think that theory is pretty valid. I think the Button story line will be happening around that time so it would be an almost tie-in for the new event. I hope Babs will get to be a major player in something soon. She never gets any of the events and is very isolated from the batfamily in her stories so it would be nice for her to get something big considering it is her 50th birthday this year.

----------


## Frontier

> I think that theory is pretty valid. I think the Button story line will be happening around that time so it would be an almost tie-in for the new event. I hope Babs will get to be a major player in something soon. She never gets any of the events and is very isolated from the batfamily in her stories so it would be nice for her to get something big considering it is her 50th birthday this year.


I hope she (and maybe the Birds) show up in the next Batfamily event.

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope she (and maybe the Birds) show up in the next Batfamily event.


Yes! Especially the Birds!

----------


## Batgirll

Yep, but I fell that now with Hope she are more conected with the DCU that was with Stewart/Fletcher. Now we see her with Poison Ivy, Supergirl and Penguin.
I want to see more her of course, but is more now that was before...

----------


## Godlike13

With her 50th coming up, not only do i hope she is part of the next Batfamily event, but that she has her very own Batfamliy event to celebrate her 50th.

----------


## Frontier

> With her 50th coming up, not only do i hope she is part of the next Batfamily event, but that she has her very own Batfamliy event to celebrate her 50th.


As long as it's not _Batgirl Eternal_ (unless it's not a weekly)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> As long as it's not _Batgirl Eternal_ (unless it's not a weekly) .


Well, I love weeklys.  :Smile:  So I would be totally okay with a Batgirl Eternal that was a weekly that was 12 issues long (so Eternal goes from 52, to 26, to 12 - 13 just seems awkward). Though I think I might prefer a year-long event which had just one issue per month - but I don't know if Babs has the sales power to sell three books at once.

----------


## Batgirll

To me they could to something with the 3 batgirls, Barbara, Steph and Cass in one mission, would be a dream *-*

----------


## millernumber1

> To me they could to something with the 3 batgirls, Barbara, Steph and Cass in one mission, would be a dream *-*


I am so with you!

----------


## Batgirll

Did you guys see that she will be in Supergirl #8?

----------


## RumpusMagoo

> Did you guys see that she will be in Supergirl #8?


Awesome and about time.  I want them to revive the Kara/Barbara dynamic from pre-Crisis.

----------


## millernumber1

> Did you guys see that she will be in Supergirl #8?


Oh, really? Is there a solicit for that?

----------


## Godlike13

From the Superman boards,



> A “Superman Reborn Aftermath” tie-in! Superman and Supergirl meet again for the first time to face the evil of the Emerald Empress! Plus, what does it mean for the Girl of Tomorrow when tomorrow promises a Dark Knight? Shocking revelations, all-powerful sorceresses from the future, the Batgirl of Burnside and dinner in the Wild West—they’re all here in this amazing issue!

----------


## Frontier

I...guess this makes Babs important to the Rebirth storyline?

----------


## joybeans

It looks more like a one-off story to me. Seems to have a guest artist, too.

----------


## Frontier

> It looks more like a one-off story to me. Seems to have a guest artist, too.


It seems like a continuation from the annual and JLvsSS. 

In the former we'll have Batgirl and Supergirl meet Saturn Girl, and in this issue it seems like they'll be dealing with Emerald Empress trying to find her. All pertinent to the Rebirth storyline. 

And I also imagine it'll cement the Babs/Kara friendship  :Smile: .

----------


## Godlike13

How old is Supergirl these days?

----------


## joybeans

I think the Babs/Kara friendship is the main point. Which is a bit odd, since Babs is in her 20s, and Kara is a teen in high school. Wonder if they'll go for a big sister dynamic, or treat them as being close in age.

----------


## Batgirll

Yeah, Babs, is older now, but remember her with Cass and Steph? she is a good teacher, and good "older sister" so, I think this is what Kara needs now, some friend who will help her, and have a Super as friend is always good.
But, I´m happy in see Babrara with others persons in DCU and envolvet in Rebirth story.

----------


## Godlike13

Maybe they go the Powergirl route and have them not get along.

----------


## Frontier

> I think the Babs/Kara friendship is the main point. Which is a bit odd, since Babs is in her 20s, and Kara is a teen in high school. Wonder if they'll go for a big sister dynamic, or treat them as being close in age.


I think that's about the same difference in age and experience their DCAU counterparts had. Babs was out-of-college while Kara was still attending Smallville High when they first met (I believe). 

Though with the writing of Babs as of late, I don't think any age difference will be very noticeable.

----------


## sorboares

> I think that theory is pretty valid. I think the Button story line will be happening around that time so it would be an almost tie-in for the new event. I hope Babs will get to be a major player in something soon. She never gets any of the events and is very isolated from the batfamily in her stories so it would be nice for her to get something big considering it is her 50th birthday this year.


Yeh she never gets the major events anymore cause I believe its since she was taken to Burnside. They deaged Batgirl, made her immature and that costume does NOT look good and looks out of place near the rest of the Batfamily. 
I really miss adult, mature kick ass Batgirl!

----------


## Batgirll

Well, I love Barbara, as Batgirl and Oracle, I know, now she looks younger, but she is, in pre flashpoint, as Oracle, she was older that now, and I think in this moment, was a good think see her how she is: happy and good, her´s life was only bad things, let her be happy sometimes. I think that the problem was that she had pass from one extrem to other, now with Hope and the Bensons we have the between, and I´m liking.
We need to know that the public target is other now, and is working to them, and to me too. And the histories there as Oracle are there to everyone read when to want.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeh she never gets the major events anymore cause I believe its since she was taken to Burnside. They deaged Batgirl, made her immature and that costume does NOT look good and looks out of place near the rest of the Batfamily. 
> I really miss adult, mature kick ass Batgirl!


Because she got the major events before?

----------


## Batgirll

Well, She was envolvet in Death of The Family and Batman Eteranl, and a little in End Game. She was out in Batman and Robin Eternal and the Crossover of the Monsters, but this crossover was meh anyway.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, She was envolvet in Death of The Family and Batman Eteranl, and a little in End Game. She was out in Batman and Robin Eternal and the Crossover of the Monsters, but this crossover was meh anyway.


Ahahaha, so true that she was out of the meh Crossover of the Monsters. Well said!  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, She was envolvet in Death of The Family and Batman Eteranl, and a little in End Game. She was out in Batman and Robin Eternal and the Crossover of the Monsters, but this crossover was meh anyway.


She took part in those events, but none of them were center around her or anything, and both DotF and Batman Eternal hurt her more than they helped her. The End Game tie-in was under the new direction though. With B&R:E they already had an inflated cast and the writers there clearly had other agendas (that book didn't even seem like it wanted the Robins in it), and Monster Men was for the bimonthlies to help with their shipping schedule.

----------


## Batgirll

Yeah, But I believe she will be part of the new Bat event, she is part of the family,I dont ´ think will be a big part, because the batfamily is really big right now but I would love something to celebrate hers 50th year. one event with the Batgirls: Babs, Cass and Steph.
And I believe she will be part of the rebirth arc now with Batgirl and the legion.

----------


## willtupper

If you haven't read it (and I'm writing this operating under the assumption that maybe someone reading this thread is fairly new to the comics), PLEASE track down a copy of _The Batman Chronicles #5_.

It contains the story "Oracle Year One: Born of Hope." Which is SO GOOD.

And makes a nice pairing (IMO) with Chuck Dixon's wonderful "Batgirl: Year One" miniseries.

Have a nice night, Babsfans!  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> If you haven't read it (and I'm writing this operating under the assumption that maybe someone reading this thread is fairly new to the comics), PLEASE track down a copy of _The Batman Chronicles #5_.
> 
> It contains the story "Oracle Year One: Born of Hope." Which is SO GOOD.
> 
> And makes a nice pairing (IMO) with Chuck Dixon's wonderful "Batgirl: Year One" miniseries.
> 
> Have a nice night, Babsfans!


It absolutely does. Oracle Year One and Batgirl Year One are almost certainly some of the very best Babs stories written. Just elegantly crafted, gorgeously written gems.  And both will be featured in the 50th anniversary celebration, according to reports!

----------


## Batgirll

Those stories are sooo goods, Batgirl Year One is my favorite, Chuck Dixon is one of who best write Barbara.

----------


## millernumber1

> Those stories are sooo goods, Batgirl Year One is my favorite, Chuck Dixon is one of who best write Barbara.


Yes, and John Ostrander.  I just ebayed Oracle Year One.  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, She was envolvet in Death of The Family and Batman Eteranl, and a little in End Game. She was out in Batman and Robin Eternal and the Crossover of the Monsters, but this crossover was meh anyway.


weren't those crossover killing niightwing, his story was always halted  for him to attend, batgirls role in batfamily was always more freelance anyway she not one of his succesors

----------


## millernumber1

> weren't those crossover killing niightwing, his story was always halted  for him to attend, batgirls role in batfamily was always more freelance anyway she not one of his succesors


1) Yes, the crossovers really hindered Nightwing's ability to stand on its own. A huge shame, considering that Kyle Higgins is one of Snyder's best proteges (Gates of Gotham!)

2) Batgirl's role in the Batfamily...which Batgirl? Babs - has no real pre-Flashpoint experience with the Batfamily on the page, as it's all pretty much pre-Crisis stuff, which doesn't give us a feeling for her role. There were a couple of flashbacks, like the Batgirl/Joker one-shot (starring Cassandra), or the Gotham Knights Jason memorial by Scott Beatty, where she teamed up with/evaluated Jason as Batman grew more concerned after the Diplomat's Son incident, but we just don't know what she would have been like in the post-Year One continuity, I believe.

Cass - was very heavily involved due to her skill, but in her own series, she was pretty self contained.

Steph - was kind of in her own corner of Gotham - still interacted with some crossovers in Red Robin/The Road Home/Batman Inc, but never as heavily involved as Cass (her appearance in Supergirl was sadly cancelled due to Nick Spencer being let go from the title).

Batgirl, despite her prominence, has never had a really solid sense of where she belongs, other than Cass (which is important, as Cass was Damian before Damian existed - and everyone seems to ignore that).

----------


## Batgirll

I think it´s because Batgirl always has her own way in Batfamily, Cass was different, because she was more connected with Batman, the others, Barbara and Steph was more by hers own.
And in the time when Cass was Batgirl, the Batfamily comics are more connect one each other, now each comic is one comic.

----------


## Batgirll

Anyway did you see the solicitation to April? The cover is  good, and looks Ethan is a (spoiler) really a bad guy.

----------


## Aahz

I'm a little bit confused by the preview of the new Batgirl issue, was Frankie being LGBT ever mentioned before?

----------


## Batgirll

Yes, Franklin always was LGBT.

----------


## joybeans

Full credits for the 50th Anniversary HC




> NOV160322
> (W) Gardner Fox, Chuck Dixon, Kelley Puckett, Gail Simone, Bill Finger, Scott Beatty, Frank Robbins, Bob Rozakis, Barbara Randall, John Ostrander, Kim Yale, Greg Rucka, Dylan Horrocks, Bryan Q. Miller, Cameron Stewart, Brendan Fletcher (A) Carmine Infantino, Damion Scott, Cameron Stewart, Babs Tarr, Sheldon Moldoff, Charles Paris, Sid Greene, Gil Kane, Don Heck, Irv Novick, Vince Colletta, Trevor Von Eeden, Rodin Rodriguez, Barry Kitson, Bruce D. Patterson, Brian Stelfreeze, Karl Story, Greg Land, Drew Geraci, Mike Deodato, Sean Parsons, Robert Campanella, Rick Leonardi, Jesse Delperdang, Tim Levins, Lee Garbett, Dan Davis, Aaron Sowd, Trevor Scott, Pere Perez, Ed Benes (A/CA) Marcos Martin, Alvaro Lopez


Looks like some Silver Age Batgirl, Year One, Birds of Prey (both Dixon/Land and Simone/Benes), Suicide Squad, No Man's Land, Cass Cain Batgirl run, Stephanie Batgirl run, and Burnside.

----------


## Caivu

Screenshot_20170212-205719.jpg

Supergirl #9

Written by STEVE ORLANDO • Art and cover by BRIAN CHING • Variant cover by BENGAL

“Escape from the Phantom Zone” part one! Trapped in the Phantom Zone, Supergirl and Batgirl must face the Phantom King to escape! But what deadly team is Emerald Empress building? And what does it have to do with the future of the Girl of Steel?

On sale MAY 10 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T

----------


## Frontier

> Screenshot_20170212-205719.jpg
> 
> Supergirl #9
> 
> Written by STEVE ORLANDO • Art and cover by BRIAN CHING • Variant cover by BENGAL
> 
> “Escape from the Phantom Zone” part one! Trapped in the Phantom Zone, Supergirl and Batgirl must face the Phantom King to escape! But what deadly team is Emerald Empress building? And what does it have to do with the future of the Girl of Steel?
> 
> On sale MAY 10 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T


Wow, this Supergirl/Batgirl team-up is lasting a lot longer then I was expecting  :EEK!: .

And we're getting more development on the Legion front, with Emerald Empress building-up a new Fatal Five. Curious to see how she'll make do without the usual suspects now that she's in the modern era.

----------


## Batgirll

Glad to see my girls working together again and to see Barbara more involved in DCU and the Rebirth.

----------


## sorboares

I just read that Batgirl and Batgirl and The Birds Of Prey are being cancelled. Not only that but Barbara Gordon is going to become Oracle again because she makes the ultimate sacrifice and becomes crippled again. 
Please tell me this isn't true...Im a huge Batgirl fan and dont want her to become Oracle again.  
Rumour is irs due to poor sales.  
Yeah that's coz Batgirl went from total amazing kick arse in Gail Simones series to baby immature batgirl of Burnside.
Bring back the serious adult Batgirl in her amazing armored costume. 
I do admit that I have enjoyed the new writers n artist on the new Burnside stories. They are a huge improvement compared to BabsTarrs work. I did NOT like her art at all
 Too cartoony and too baby like

----------


## Assam

> I just read that Batgirl and Batgirl and The Birds Of Prey are being cancelled. Not only that but Barbara Gordon is going to become Oracle again because she makes the ultimate sacrifice and becomes crippled again. 
> Please tell me this isn't true...Im a huge Batgirl fan and dont want her to become Oracle again.  
> Rumour is irs due to poor sales.  
> Yeah that's coz Batgirl went from total amazing kick arse in Gail Simones series to baby immature batgirl of Burnside.
> Bring back the serious adult Batgirl in her amazing armored costume. 
> I do admit that I have enjoyed the new writers n artist on the new Burnside stories. They are a huge improvement compared to BabsTarrs work. I did NOT like her art at all
>  Too cartoony and too baby like


Unfortunately, what you read, and I saw it too, was most definitely fake. 

But man do I wish it were real! I despise Babs as Batgirl, but I ADORE Oracle, and a book where Oracle trains Cass and Steph while the two fight as a duo is something I've wanted for YEARS!

----------


## Caivu

Batgirl and BBoP were both selling above 20,000 last month, so they're safe for a while.

----------


## Godlike13

> I just read that Batgirl and Batgirl and The Birds Of Prey are being cancelled. Not only that but Barbara Gordon is going to become Oracle again because she makes the ultimate sacrifice and becomes crippled again. 
> Please tell me this isn't true...Im a huge Batgirl fan and dont want her to become Oracle again.  
> Rumour is irs due to poor sales.  
> Yeah that's coz Batgirl went from total amazing kick arse in Gail Simones series to baby immature batgirl of Burnside.
> Bring back the serious adult Batgirl in her amazing armored costume. 
> I do admit that I have enjoyed the new writers n artist on the new Burnside stories. They are a huge improvement compared to BabsTarrs work. I did NOT like her art at all
>  Too cartoony and too baby like


Snyder already debunked that. https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...81674848522241

Though if DC wanted Babs to be Oracle again, then they should just make her Oracle again with her ability to walk. For them cripple her a second time just to make her Oracle again would be messed up. She doesn't have to be in the chair to be Oracle. Just show us what a walking modern Oracle would be like. In the age of tablets, phones, and technology made to go. There are plenty of new tech ideas that they could incorporate into a walking Oracle, who could work in the field. 
And i don't care what she's called, in any form she's too good to be Batgirl support. Ive had to hear over and over how Batgirl is a step down from Oracle. So if thats true, then Oracle should be published as such.

----------


## millernumber1

> Snyder already debunked that. https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...81674848522241
> 
> Though if DC wanted Babs to be Oracle again, then they should just make her Oracle again with her ability to walk. For them cripple her a second time just to make her Oracle again would be messed up. She doesn't have to be in the chair to Oracle. Just show us what a walking modern Oracle would be like. In the age of tablets, phones, and technology made to go. There are plenty of new tech ideas that they could incorporate into a walking Oracle, who could work in the field. 
> And i don't care what she's called, in any form she's too good to be Batgirl support. Ive had to hear over and over how Batgirl is a step down from Oracle. So if thats true, then Oracle should be published as such.


I agree - I don't so much want Babs in the chair as Babs as Oracle. She's not as merchandiseable, though (however, I do have the Oracle Heroclix figure on my desk in front of me now, with Black Bat Cass and Batgirl Steph  :Smile:  ), so I'm not sure it'll happen. The holdover in Akrham Asylum's game series didn't seem to do anything but push Arkham to make flashback Batgirl DLC. If ever there was a universe that Cass would fit well in, the Arkhamverse seems like one, but it didn't happen.

----------


## Godlike13

If they were to make her Oracle again then obviously they're not caring about merchandise as much, because non of them are as merchandisable (is this a word?) as her Batgirl.

----------


## Frontier

I remember when that first image for the DLC came out we were debating which Batgirl it was, and a lot of people were guessing it was Cass because she looked like a brunette. 

It ended up being a pretty cool Batgirl DLC though. I liked Ashley Greene as Barbara  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

I agree that Oracle doesn't need to be crippled, and it'd just be bad for everyone involved if Babs was crippled again. And you know what? I would TOTALLY read an Oracle solo book. That doesn't mean she couldn't ALSO be support in "Batgirls" and act as the backbone of the DCU like she did for almost two decades.

Oh, and if Cass HAD been in Arkham Knight, not only would I have bought the game, I would have bought a PS4 to play it!

----------


## lorraine

Oh God I even forgot this thread exists. 

Imo, I felt totally let down when DC brought her back the ability to walk and restoring back the Batgirl mantle to her. She was a lot stronger and influential as Oracle. She acted mature and it just suits her well with her personality and skills. The Batgirl mantle should have continued with Stephanie or be returned to Cass. I hate that DC just deaged Babs and made her act like a high school freshman. Futhermore, her being disabled added some richness of diversity to the Batfam. Now her character is a deteriorated version of all the build up that the writers (I forgot who) took to enhanced Babs from being a crippled victim to one of the most iconic disabled characters in fiction IMO. Sorry for my rants. I know DC can't return her back to her being disabled because it'll make no sense. I'm just not a fan of her being Batgirl especially this stupid Burnside version.

----------


## millernumber1

> I remember when that first image for the DLC came out we were debating which Batgirl it was, and a lot of people were guessing it was Cass because she looked like a brunette. 
> 
> It ended up being a pretty cool Batgirl DLC though. I liked Ashley Greene as Barbara .


I do too. I just think it was a missed opportunity.

----------


## Frontier

> I do too. I just think it was a missed opportunity.


Well, I was pretty happy to get to see Barbara in her prime as Batgirl. Tim-romance aside, that was pretty cool, especially with that suit  :Smile: . 

Plus, depending on the direction of the next Arkham games, there's ample opportunity to introduce new Batgirls...

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, I was pretty happy to get to see Barbara in her prime as Batgirl. Tim-romance aside, that was pretty cool, especially with that suit . 
> 
> Plus, depending on the direction of the next Arkham games, there's ample opportunity to introduce new Batgirls...


But will the desire and stubbornness be there to get them in? At this point, I'd be happy just to see a Spoiler and a Orphan (though I'd prefer Black Bat).

----------


## Assam

> But will the desire and stubbornness be there to get them in? At this point, I'd be happy just to see a Spoiler and a Orphan (though I'd prefer Black Bat).


I honestly don't care what identities they gave them. If Cass and Steph were brought to life in an Arkham game, I would buy whatever system I needed to play it, along with the game itself.

----------


## Carabas

> If they were to make her Oracle again then obviously they're not caring about merchandise as much, because non of them are as merchandisable (is this a word?) as her Batgirl.


There was never any shortage of Babs-as-Batgirl merchandise in the 20 or so years that she was Oracle.

----------


## sorboares

> There was never any shortage of Babs-as-Batgirl merchandise in the 20 or so years that she was Oracle.


I believe there was a HUGE shortage of BATGIRL merchandise when she wad oracle all those years.
But cant wait for the Batgirl movie, Im so hoping its inspired by Gail Simones Batgirl series. 
Please NO Burnside version,  I want to see a strong mature woman being just as formidable as Batman.

----------


## adrikito

> I believe there was a HUGE shortage of BATGIRL merchandise when she wad oracle all those years.
> But cant wait for the Batgirl movie, *Im so hoping its inspired by Gail Simones Batgirl series. 
> Please NO Burnside version,  I want to see a strong mature woman being just as formidable as Batman*.


I desire the SAME.

----------


## Red obin

I just realised I have never posted on Babs thread so.......

Has Babs Batgirl book improved since the first couple of issues as I really enjoyed the first issue, but the novelty wore off in the second issue where it seemed Larson wanted more to focus on Babs than Batgirl. I dropped the series after issue 2, as unlike BatBop I felt as though this series has less potential. Did the first arc improve in the following issues and is the new direction promising? I heard the Penguins son plot was just another obvious cliché(what is it with Babs and dating at the moment btw).

----------


## Godlike13

Ya,the book much improved after the first arc IMO, but there is still a lot of focus on Babs out of the costume. And the Penguins son plot isn't like quite the solics implied. She's not really dating him but more pretending so she can see what his deal actually is.

----------


## Assam

Just curious, why are you guys upset that there's focus on Babs outside the suit? If you're a fan of the character, wouldn't you rather see them, well, being them? I'd kill for more of the books I read to focus on civilian lives (I'm looking at you 'Tec!)

----------


## Frontier

> Just curious, why are you guys upset that there's focus on Babs outside the suit? If you're a fan of the character, wouldn't you rather see them, well, being them? I'd kill for more of the books I read to focus on civilian lives (I'm looking at you 'Tec!)


I feel like the civilian lives for the entire Batfamily is really underutilized these days.

----------


## Assam

> I feel like the civilian lives for the entire Batfamily is really underutilized these days.


Just another reason I miss the 90's and early 2000's. We got entire issues of Tim dealing with Steph's pregnancy and his own family stuff. Of Bruce and Babs having a conversation while Cass trains. Hell, there were times where multiple issues of Azrael would go by, and Jean-Paul didn't even put on the costume. 

Nowadays, everything has to be non-stop action, and Gotham has to be in constant peril. 

And it's boring.

----------


## Pohzee

> Just another reason I miss the 90's and early 2000's. We got entire issues of Tim dealing with Steph's pregnancy and his own family stuff. Of Bruce and Babs having a conversation while Cass trains. Hell, there were times where multiple issues of Azrael would go by, and Jean-Paul didn't even put on the costume. 
> 
> Nowadays, everything has to be non-stop action, and Gotham has to be in constant peril. 
> 
> And it's boring.


Agreed. Except for Dick, whose civilian live post-Robin I find very boring. The one I want to see most is Damian, because I think it would be hilarious seeing him talked down to by adults and stuck with normal kids his age. It'd be cool if they made Babara a senator again.

----------


## Frontier

> Agreed. Except for Dick, whose civilian live post-Robin I find very boring. The one I want to see most is Damian, because I think it would be hilarious seeing him talked down to by adults and stuck with normal kids his age. It'd be cool if they made Babara a senator again.


I'm curious what kind of stuff she'll get into as a librarian again  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Agreed. Except for Dick, whose civilian live post-Robin I find very boring. The one I want to see most is Damian, because I think it would be hilarious seeing him talked down to by adults and stuck with normal kids his age. It'd be cool if they made Babara a senator again.


Eh. I admit it wasn't too exciting but I thought there was some merit to Dick's time as a cop. 

If the glimpses of Damian pretending to be a normal kid we got in Steph's Batgirl book are any indication, it'd be amazing. I really hope they end up going that route, maybe having Bruce enroll Damian in Jon's school.

Barbara going back to being a senator would be a big step up for the character.

----------


## The Kid

Any preference for who to cast as Barbara?

----------


## Assam

So be honest here. Even if you're enjoying the current BoP run, wouldn't we all be happier if the roster looked like this? 

birds of prey.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

No, BoP was at its best when it was a small, close, group of women.

----------


## Carabas

> No, BoP was at its best when it was a small, tight, group of women.


It still was that. It was Babs, Helena, Zinda, plus non-permanent guest stars.

----------


## robert

BoP is pretty good right now. I hope they don't fall into the same trap as Gail and start to overcrowd the cast.

----------


## adrikito

> So be honest here. Even if you're enjoying the current BoP run, wouldn't we all be happier if the roster looked like this? 
> 
> birds of prey.jpg


GOOD ERA... Especially for Barbara.

----------


## Red obin

> I feel like the civilian lives for the entire Batfamily is really underutilized these days.





> Just curious, why are you guys upset that there's focus on Babs outside the suit? If you're a fan of the character, wouldn't you rather see them, well, being them? I'd kill for more of the books I read to focus on civilian lives (I'm looking at you 'Tec!)


No, I love fo using at the alternate identities of the bat fam, I just was not a particular fan of Babs in the first 2 rebirth issues due to the Kai stuff and some of the writing.(I like the MMA stuff though) what did everyone think of the thought bubbles? Once again I was conflicted over them as I liked and disliked them for different reasons such as it added to the cartoony style but there was something off about them which I could not put my finger on, maybe I just prefer thought "boxes," or I just felt that they were overused.

----------


## Red obin

Also I was wondering about the first trade cover as I have seen this one floating around on the internet as well as the new cover which I have seen everywhere else. Any actual difference?

----------


## millernumber1

> So be honest here. Even if you're enjoying the current BoP run, wouldn't we all be happier if the roster looked like this? 
> 
> birds of prey.jpg


It really depends. I love Birds of Prey when it's the Core Trio, but I also adore Misfit and Zinda and Barda and Kate Spencer (even Infinity). What I'm not a fan of is when they include obnoxious members on the team and make them the focus of the plot, like Vulture or whatever he was in the n52 Birds, or Hawk and Dove in the Simone relaunch. New Oracle is on the bubble for me.

----------


## mfariasw31

Is Barbara still pining for Dick in Rebirth?

----------


## millernumber1

> Is Barbara still pining for Dick in Rebirth?


aaaaaaaaaa....uuuuuuuuummmmmm...sorta kinda? They're both dating other people right now, but Babs is mostly cruising on sketchy dudes who usually turn out to be connected to her villains, and Dick is always heart-first. Last issue of Birds of Prey indicated that she still has The Feelings for him, but isn't hung up on it.

----------


## RedQueen

I don't mind peripheral characters, but the heart and soul are pretty much babs and dinah and also helena when she joins. Birds of Prey was formed on the basis of the relationship of Babs and Dinah, so when people try to substitute them for others it pretty much bombs. i also wouldn't want cass, stephanie or harper in the line up because then the concept of BoP becomes about mentoring the newbies. I prefer BoP to be a seasoned team. I'd accept Misfit though because I liked her dynamic with the team, but adding the other 3 girls would just seem to cater to fanfiction and just unnecessarily overpopulate the title. I still really adore the other characters but BoP just isn't a title to insert them into for the sake of it. 

Good additions to the team would of course be Zinda. I'd trade Gus for Zinda in a heartbeat.

----------


## RedQueen

So looking at Batgirl sales figures, compared to other batfamily and rebirth titles, it's kind of lost it's buzz amongst other batfam and rebirth titles.

I know a lot of people aren't happy with the quality of stories that Babs is getting and batgirl writing is average and kind of meager compared to what other rebirth titles are producing, so I'm kind of wondering what everyone thinks needs to be changed for it to get a bit of a boost? 

For me she needs a new writer and just a bit of revamp. Babs isn't a "contender" sort of character anymore. She kind of lacks her steel and previous temperament. I also want her own equivalent of a "nightwing" or "red hood" codename because she needs one, I think, and also a new costume but I love her color scheme still. But yeah I think she just needs a revamp, because she's turning 50 this year and,to me, batgirl is boring for her to be.

----------


## Aahz

> I know a lot of people aren't happy with the quality of stories that Babs is getting and batgirl writing is average and kind of meager compared to what other rebirth titles are producing, so I'm kind of wondering what everyone thinks needs to be changed for it to get a bit of a boost?


They should give the book a more mature tone and her a more mature costume (kind of like simones run but a little less dark), give her a bigger role in some event or cross over and make her title feel more relevant again (= giver her bigger villains).

----------


## Godlike13

Hopefully they have something in store for her 50th. Batgirl could use a pick me up, i know they wanted to give her book space, but she is kind of getting lost in the shuffle. I know they want to push others into the forefront of the family, but they also want Batgirl to carry 2 books and to do a Batgirl movie. So they needs to get some things straightened out here.

----------


## millernumber1

> They should give the book a more mature tone and her a more mature costume (kind of like simones run but a little less dark), give her a bigger role in some event or cross over and make her title feel more relevant again (= giver her bigger villains).


I actually think the tone is pretty reasonably mature. The real problem is 1) editorial's insistence that Babs can't have a long term love interest (at least, that's what I imagine, since Babs has had over 10 love interests in the past 5 years, which is truly ridiculous), and 2) editorial's desire to make Babs as divorced from the rest of Gotham as possible. Basically, I want editorial to give Babs a long-term love interest (I'd prefer Dick, but I'm okay with most guys as long as they're well written - I liked Luke a lot because he had potential to stay around and also has connections to larger Gotham) and move her freaking out of Burnside and her paper-thin supporting cast.

----------


## Godlike13

Paper-thin? She probably has the most home grown and developed supporting cast then any of the Bat characters not Batman right now.

----------


## Aahz

> I actually think the tone is pretty reasonably mature.


I haven't read new arc (I prefer reading the complete storyarcs in one go when they are finished), but before that it was at least not as mature as Simones run or the other Batman series.




> The real problem is 1) editorial's insistence that Babs can't have a long term love interest (at least, that's what I imagine, since Babs has had over 10 love interests in the past 5 years, which is truly ridiculous), and 2) editorial's desire to make Babs as divorced from the rest of Gotham as possible. Basically, I want editorial to give Babs a long-term love interest (I'd prefer Dick, but I'm okay with most guys as long as they're well written - I liked Luke a lot because he had potential to stay around and also has connections to larger Gotham) and move her freaking out of Burnside and her paper-thin supporting cast.


I could also do without a love interst for some time, and i agree that she needs to get a again a stronger role in the Batfamily.

----------


## millernumber1

> Paper-thin? She probably has the most home grown and developed supporting cast then any of the Bat characters not Batman right now.


...okay. I would LIKE to be a fan of ANY of Babs's supporting cast who aren't Jim, but I find all of them incredibly poorly characterized. I will give you, she has the most named characters who are part of her civilian life, but I do not agree that these named characters are developed.




> I haven't read new arc (I prefer reading the complete storyarcs in one go when they are finished), but before that it was at least not as mature as Simones run or the other Batman series.
> 
> I could also do without a love interst for some time, and i agree that she needs to get a again a stronger role in the Batfamily.


Well, the first arc of Larson's run is out, and it's pretty solid (though I prefer the art in the second arc so far). I didn't think Simone's was all that mature - it was just kinda dark and edgy (and obsessed with the villains).

I actually do want Babs to have a love interest - singular - and one for at least two years. It's obvious that writers want to write Babs having romantic plots, but this constant playing the field really hurts Babs's character.

----------


## Godlike13

> ...okay. I would LIKE to be a fan of ANY of Babs's supporting cast who aren't Jim, but I find all of them incredibly poorly characterized. I will give you, she has the most named characters who are part of her civilian life, but I do not agree that these named characters are developed.


I don't know, if you look at Alysia and Frankie from where they were when they were introduced, to where they are now. There has been quite a bit of development for both.

----------


## RedQueen

yeah, the love interest are one of the weakest part of the title. The problem with them is that Babs meets them for one issue and then they start dating and then it fizzles out a few issues later, then rinse and repeat. 

I don't get Larson's obsession with apps fueling story lines. Like I think it's a good idea but it's executing in a way where it's in your face I guess? The apps aren't an inspiring story premise I guess. I get it's a plot point but it's just a constant thing especially when other bat titles are handling plot devices in a more crafty way. 

I felt the supporting cast had better characterization in the previous run. The dialogue doesn't flow that naturally in the current title and they take up a lot of panel time that isn't relevant to the overall plot so it drags a bit because they don't have a natural flow of dialogue. I'm glad Alysiah is back more prominently though. She was always my favorite civilian best friend for Babs.

Arts fine. I really enjoy it.

I'd like Bab's costume to be her Simone era costume but with her current color scheme. I mean Babs's cape looks childish because it's tiny and the ears popping out is odd. I'd rather they just changed her to the domino mask. 

Since Rucka is available now, maybe he can take Barbara into a new direction.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know, if you look at Alysia and Frankie from where they were when they were introduced, to where they are now. There has been quite a bit of development for both.


Frankie's main difference is...she knows who Babs is (and is now dating). Alysia you might have a point, but I really, really dislike her character at every point in the story, from beginning to now.




> yeah, the love interest are one of the weakest part of the title. The problem with them is that Babs meets them for one issue and then they start dating and then it fizzles out a few issues later, then rinse and repeat. 
> 
> Since Rucka is available now, maybe he can take Barbara into a new direction.


Completely agree that the disposable love interests is a real weakness on the book. Which is why I'm begging DC to give Babs a stable relationship for at least two years. Break us out of this hook up nonsense.

I really, really doubt that Rucka has any interest in writing Batgirl. I would read the heck out of it, but I don't see him doing it. He would do Sasha, Helena Bertinelli, Kate Kane, or Renee Montoya - and honestly, I don't know that DC has a book to give him that would fit in his overstuffed schedule which features one of those.

----------


## Godlike13

I like that DC is trying to get female writers to write their female characters. At least when it comes to their Bat females. Unfortunately there aren't really many high profile female writers in the business. Though i guess they could have Palmiotti and Conner try their hand at a Batgirl run. Probably wouldn't go over well here though.

----------


## lorraine

I don't care about the gender of the writer and I think they shouldn't force women writers to write women characters. I dislike how fans caused an uproar when Wheldon was announced as the director of Batgirl just because the director isn't a woman. It's ridiculous coming from them.

As long as a writer, regardless of gender, is capable of producing good and interesting stories for any character regardless of gender, then they should be assigned to write it without caring about the gender.

----------


## sorboares

> They should give the book a more mature tone and her a more mature costume (kind of like simones run but a little less dark), give her a bigger role in some event or cross over and make her title feel more relevant again (= giver her bigger villains).



I agree with u 100%
Batgirl needs a revamp, more maturity, more serious bigger villains, make it morr mature and darker but if they dont want it as dark as simones run than make it slightly lighter and the Burnside costume needs to go. We need the costume from Gail Simones run back or something very similar. 
They have pushed Batgirl so out of the Batfamily now that when u rarely do see her with them she just doesnt really fit in much anymore and its such a HUGE shame!

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't care about the gender of the writer and I think they shouldn't force women writers to write women characters. I dislike how fans caused an uproar when Wheldon was announced as the director of Batgirl just because the director isn't a woman. It's ridiculous coming from them.
> 
> As long as a writer, regardless of gender, is capable of producing good and interesting stories for any character regardless of gender, then they should be assigned to write it without caring about the gender.


Co-signed.

----------


## Godlike13

*BATGIRL #13*
_Written by HOPE LARSON
Art by CHRIS WILDGOOSE
Cover by DAN MORA
Variant cover by JOSHUA MIDDLETON
“BATS AND CATS”! When an innocent bystander close to Batgirl’s heart gets caught in between a feud between herself and Catwoman, what started as just another case could become direly important.
On sale JULY 26 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T_



*BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #12*
_Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
Art by ROGE ANTONIO
Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
“SOURCE CODE” part two! Oracle crossed half the criminal underworld in his early years—and now, he’s caused a black cat to cross the Birds of Prey’s path! Catwoman’s been waiting for a chance to get her claws on this guy for a while…but at this point, do the Birds even want to stand in her way?
On sale JULY 12 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T_

Hmm, two doses of Catwoman. What is the chances they get nude again in one of these  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Hmm, two doses of Catwoman. What is the chances they get nude again in one of these


Oh dear lord, I read that story last year  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Kinda felt like Nicieza at his most shameless...

Though a Babs as Batgirl team-up or conflict with Catwoman feels pretty classic in it's own right  :Smile: .

----------


## RedQueen

> As revealed to The Hollywood Reporter, Feige said that Whedon actually contacted him before the decision was made public.
> 
> "He called. A couple months ago, which he didn't have to do and was super cool of him and super nice of him… And we couldn't be more supportive. We want to see a Joss Whedon Batgirl film be awesome."


http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/04/18/b...dios-avengers/

This hints toward Batgirl being in the cooker for more than a few months now before it was announced so we might be getting a Batgirl movie news sooner than expected. By San Diego Comic Con this movie could have at least 6 months of planning with scripts etc by then. Also this is all just me theorising.... I saw a lot of people saying it's going to be on the slow burn to make way for Nightwing and Gotham City Sirens, but with Joss he has a solid amount of quality work and more experience behind him than the other directors (not to diminish their accomplishments but Joss helmed two Avengers movies with Marvel execs breathing down his shoulder so I give him the edge on that). 

So yeah, because of Joss's experience I wouldn't be surprised to see this movie move at a faster pace just because he's knows the ins and outs. I also theorise that this might be a passion project or a character that DC let him choose to do a movie on (because in the grand scheme of things Barbara is sort of random character to get her own movie straight away) so he might be able to translate his vision easier than others. Also it's a solo hero project and WB would definitely let a guy with the success that Joss has to do his own thing.

I'm not saying the movie is getting fast tracked at all, but a Batgirl movie with the creative force behind that it has might make things move quicker along

----------


## The Kid

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/04/18/b...dios-avengers/
> 
> This hints toward Batgirl being in the cooker for more than a few months now before it was announced so we might be getting a Batgirl movie news sooner than expected. By San Diego Comic Con this movie could have at least 6 months of planning with scripts etc by then. Also this is all just me theorising.... I saw a lot of people saying it's going to be on the slow burn to make way for Nightwing and Gotham City Sirens, but with Joss he has a solid amount of quality work and more experience behind him than the other directors (not to diminish their accomplishments but Joss helmed two Avengers movies with Marvel execs breathing down his shoulder so I give him the edge on that). 
> 
> So yeah, because of Joss's experience I wouldn't be surprised to see this movie move at a faster pace just because he's knows the ins and outs. I also theorise that this might be a passion project or a character that DC let him choose to do a movie on because in the grand scheme of themes Barbara is sort of random character to get her own movie straight away so he might be able to translate his vision easier than others. Also it's a solo hero project and WB would definitely let a guy with the success that Joss has to do his own thing.
> 
> I'm not saying the movie is getting fast tracked at all, but a Batgirl movie with the creative force behind that it has might make things move quicker along


Very interesting. It's like I expected. Because Joss is behind this, I think this has a much better chance of being made

----------


## The Kid

https://twitter.com/Variety/status/854882578498674688

Here's Joss on the early development of Batgirl.. Really excited that this is actually going to happen

----------


## Caivu

> https://twitter.com/Variety/status/854882578498674688
> 
> Here's Joss on the early development of Batgirl.. Really excited that this is actually going to happen


Vin Diesel's a bold but brilliant choice.

----------


## RedQueen

> https://twitter.com/Variety/status/854882578498674688
> 
> Here's Joss on the early development of Batgirl.. Really excited that this is actually going to happen


I like how he talks about it and of course Vin Diesel in an obvious choice. Anyways I hope he doesn't get execs hanging over him like they did with Age of Ultron. The way he's talking about it seems like WB is definitely given him creative freedom.


Hey is it worth having a Batgirl movie news thread? Info is slowly trickling out this point and I think Nightwing has one.

----------


## Godlike13

> Hey is it worth having a Batgirl movie news thread? Info is slowly trickling out this point and I think Nightwing has one.


Probably not, it'll get hijacked or buried under bitterness. Especially if there isn't a steady stream of news coming in. Maybe just add to this one.

----------


## Carabas

> Vin Diesel's a bold but brilliant choice.


I'm okay with it as long as he wears a wig.

----------


## RedQueen

> Probably not, it'll get hijacked or buried under bitterness. Especially if there isn't a steady stream of news coming in. Maybe just add to this one.


True. Keeping it here or it that thread might keep it tidy and relevant to those interested.

----------


## Batgirll

I´m so glad to see that  Batgirl movie is really gonna to happen, and Whedon is right to choice first the tom to the character, we have 2 really differents  ways to Barbara: the dark from Gail Simone, the fun from Burnside and I think he will do somethiw between them. Barbara is a great character, she ispired me so much, I´m so happy that she will have her solo movie.

----------


## sorboares

> I´m so glad to see that  Batgirl movie is really gonna to happen, and Whedon is right to choice first the tom to the character, we have 2 really differents  ways to Barbara: the dark from Gail Simone, the fun from Burnside and I think he will do somethiw between them. Barbara is a great character, she ispired me so much, I´m so happy that she will have her solo movie.


Ive wished for a Batgirl movie for years so I'm totally excited. I'm hoping for the Gail Simone version of Batgirl as Burnside version is too directed at children and its too immature. 
I want to see a serious Batgirl taking no crap from anyone.  I don't mind a bit of humor but for the most part I want to see a strong mature heroine!

----------


## Godlike13

Ideally they probably want something that appeals to both adults and children alike.

----------


## WonderNight

I just hope we don't get dickxbabs in the movie.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Ive wished for a Batgirl movie for years so I'm totally excited. I'm hoping for the Gail Simone version of Batgirl as Burnside version is too directed at children and its too immature. 
> I want to see a serious Batgirl taking no crap from anyone.  I don't mind a bit of humor but for the most part I want to see a strong mature heroine!


Gail's Batgirl is too serious. Burnside Batgirl would be successful and easier to do.

----------


## sorboares

> Gail's Batgirl is too serious. Burnside Batgirl would be successful and easier to do.


No way Burnsides Batgirl would be too childish and would not fit into the DCMU at all. She already doesnt fit into the Batfamily in the comics.
We need to see a strong and capable fighter not a Batgirl that is distracted with boys and taking selfies!

----------


## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/Variety/status/854882578498674688
> 
> Here's Joss on the early development of Batgirl.. Really excited that this is actually going to happen


Please.... A normal Batgirl...

----------


## Batgirll

1- Batgirl of Burnside: Barbara is not a weak girl because she is in a good moment in her life, to me this made her really stronger, she choice to be happy and not let the passed rule her life.
2 - Whedon said in a interview that think in Barbara how a strong and intense person, who decided to be a hero because she wants, not because she had her relatives killed, so I think he will do something like Buffy, not so dark like the Simone run was or so light how Burnside is.

----------


## Vinsanity

> No way Burnsides Batgirl would be too childish and would not fit into the DCMU at all. She already doesnt fit into the Batfamily in the comics.
> We need to see a strong and capable fighter not a Batgirl that is distracted with boys and taking selfies!


Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? So you can't be a strong fighter if you like guys and taking selfies? Seems a bit of a stretch to say that.

----------


## sorboares

> Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? So you can't be a strong fighter if you like guys and taking selfies? Seems a bit of a stretch to say that.


Well i believe that a Batgirl Movie needs to fit into the Movie Universe already created in Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. So Batgirl should be a serious fighter and not be like she is in Burnside taking selfies and falling in love with every new guy who shows up. 
I want to see a mature heroine not something aimed at children. 
Burnside Batgirl in my opinion was a big mistake. Gail Simones Batgirl is the way they should go and I really hope they do. It was mature, serious, shows how strong Barbara really is and shows that she is capable of taking care of herself!
I dont mind a bit of humour in the movie here and there but overall I want to finally see Barbara Gordon on the big screen taking care of herself and kicking major arse. 
Its the first time we will see Barbara Gordon as Batgirl on the big screen in a live action movie ever. 
So I hope they do her justice!

----------


## Vinsanity

> Well i believe that a Batgirl Movie needs to fit into the Movie Universe already created in Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. So Batgirl should be a serious fighter and not be like she is in Burnside taking selfies and falling in love with every new guy who shows up. 
> I want to see a mature heroine not something aimed at children. 
> Burnside Batgirl in my opinion was a big mistake. Gail Simones Batgirl is the way they should go and I really hope they do. It was mature, serious, shows how strong Barbara really is and shows that she is capable of taking care of herself!
> I dont mind a bit of humour in the movie here and there but overall I want to finally see Barbara Gordon on the big screen taking care of herself and kicking major arse. 
> Its the first time we will see Barbara Gordon as Batgirl on the big screen in a live action movie ever. 
> So I hope they do her justice!



Yeah seeeee that kind of doesn't make sense. You can be mature and take selfies. You can be a serious fighter and hook up with guys. Burnside doesn't take from that. Plus having her as downbeat would be kind of a downer and not accessible to a lot of people.

----------


## Carabas

> Well i believe that a Batgirl Movie needs to fit into the Movie Universe already created in Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. So Batgirl should be a serious fighter and not be like she is in Burnside taking selfies and falling in love with every new guy who shows up. 
> I want to see a mature heroine not something aimed at children. 
> Burnside Batgirl in my opinion was a big mistake. Gail Simones Batgirl is the way they should go and I really hope they do. It was mature, serious, shows how strong Barbara really is and shows that she is capable of taking care of herself!
> I dont mind a bit of humour in the movie here and there but overall I want to finally see Barbara Gordon on the big screen taking care of herself and kicking major arse. 
> Its the first time we will see Barbara Gordon as Batgirl on the big screen in a live action movie ever. 
> So I hope they do her justice!


I do believe that they have indicated that the DC movieverse isnot going to be as coherent in style as the MCU, with directors having far more latitude to do their own thing.

----------


## The Kid

I've been thinking about the movie and I really hope Dinah shows up. Arrow completely botched her character so I'd like to see her get a chance again on the big screen and see her incredible relationship with Barbara depicted

----------


## RedQueen

> I've been thinking about the movie and I really hope Dinah shows up. Arrow completely botched her character so I'd like to see her get a chance again on the big screen and see her incredible relationship with Barbara depicted


It would be great. Arrow has had like 4 versions of black canary and killed most of them off like they don't deserve her. 

I'd love to see it be the origins of their friendship. And it would allow barbara to have someone to bounce off of as a character. The way whedon has been talking it looks like a barbara gordon psychological exploration in gotham but I would like to think Dinah would have a role to play in Barbara's life.

And again Arrow has misused and abused Black canary too many times, she deserves something bigger and better.

----------


## The Kid

> It would be great. Arrow has had like 4 versions of black canary and killed most of them off like they don't deserve her. 
> 
> I'd love to see it be the origins of their friendship. And it would allow barbara to have someone to bounce off of as a character. The way whedon has been talking it looks like a barbara gordon psychological exploration in gotham but I would like to think Dinah would have a role to play in Barbara's life.
> 
> And again Arrow has misused and abused Black canary too many times, she deserves something bigger and better.


Agreed. Seeing Dinah portrayed accurately would be incredible!

Also, Batgirl is apparently the next female superhero movie after WW.

----------


## Assam

> Agreed. Seeing Dinah portrayed accurately would be incredible!


I know you mean in live-action, but the DCAU version was pretty damn great.

----------


## The Kid

> I know you mean in live-action, but the DCAU version was pretty damn great.


Yeah meant live action. DCAU and Young Justice both had very good portrayals of her

----------


## Frontier

> It would be great. Arrow has had like 4 versions of black canary and killed most of them off like they don't deserve her. 
> 
> I'd love to see it be the origins of their friendship. And it would allow barbara to have someone to bounce off of as a character. The way whedon has been talking it looks like a barbara gordon psychological exploration in gotham but I would like to think Dinah would have a role to play in Barbara's life.
> 
> And again Arrow has misused and abused Black canary too many times, she deserves something bigger and better.


I'm enjoying Dinah on _Arrow_ right now, but it would be nice to see Black Canary finally done justice in live-action, although I think the Batgirl movie should be explicitly Babs without any major team-ups (although an appearance from Bruce and Dick is probably likely).

----------


## RedQueen

> I'm enjoying Dinah on _Arrow_ right now, but it would be nice to see Black Canary finally done justice in live-action, although I think the Batgirl movie should be explicitly Babs without any major team-ups (although an appearance from Bruce and Dick is probably likely).


I'm liking Dinah too. I'm just kind of salty that they've killed two canaries already in a short span of time and that spoke to me about their weird priorities about the legacy of BC. But Dinah Drake is very fun and I hope she stays alive. She's easily the best fit amongst the recruits. The current season is really good after the show turned into the shipping chronicles in s3 and s4. Really down with the improvements but I need to catch up after Adrian's escape. 

And I'm have to actually agree with the movie comment now that I'm thinking on it. I would love for them to incorporate Dinah somehow but I don't want anything distracting from the exploration of babs' character but a nod to Dinah would be cool.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I think you could have Dinah pop up as her physical therapist trying to get Barbara back in peak fighting shape. You could weave their prior friendship and partnership in between their sessions.

Recently they have Black Canary being a trainer of heroes so you could pull from that. She doesnt actually have to be a physical therapist as her day job but what Dinah actually does for a living isnt set in stone. This allows her to have a role but not take much away from Barbara's story.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think you could have Dinah pop up as her physical therapist trying to get Barbara back in peak fighting shape. You could weave their prior friendship and partnership in between their sessions.
> 
> Recently they have Black Canary being a trainer of heroes so you could pull from that. She doesnt actually have to be a physical therapist as her day job but what Dinah actually does for a living isnt set in stone. This allows her to have a role but not take much away from Barbara's story.


Oh yeah this would be awesome. It also provides Dinah a niche in the League if they plan to include her on the JL2 roster. And allows for roles in a possible Teen Titans movie.

----------


## Assam

Something just occurred to me. People have made this point about just the Robins, but looking at the entire main BatFamily (Bruce, the 5 Robins and the 3 100% Batgirls) every one has either died (Jason, Cass (Twice), Damian) or thought to have been dead by everyone for an extended period of time (Bruce, Dick, Tim, Steph) EXCEPT for Babs. Maybe her time will come eventually, but for now, that's another feather in her cap.

----------


## Caivu

Tumblr user @maridoodles created some drawings about the key info on all the main bat-ladies. Here's Barbara's:

65e74e0c-d23c-46e4-bb62-c1148a0387a3.jpg

----------


## Frontier

Thought this merited mentioning...

Alyson Stoner, the voice of Barbara/Batgirl in _Young Justice_, is recording episodes for season 3.

Probably also fair to note that she also voiced Bette  :Smile: .

----------


## The Kid

> Thought this merited mentioning...
> 
> Alyson Stoner, the voice of Barbara/Batgirl in _Young Justice_, is recording episodes for season 3.
> 
> Probably also fair to note that she also voiced Bette .


I hope she gets more screentime in season 3. Right now, I don't think there has been enough development of her character to turn her into Oracle. Many people watching might not even know that Batgirl and Oracle are the same person atm if there is a change during a time skip

----------


## sorboares

So have use read that the Batgirl movie is looking for a woman of color to play Batgirl? The article also says it will be an origin movie done in flashbacks.
What r ur thoughts? 
I'm not racist but my opinion is I love Barbara Gordon from the New 52 Comics by Gail Simone. Barbara has never been on the big screen.  They changed Barbara Gordon to Barbara Wilson in the Batman And Robin Movie. They changed her also from red hair to blonde hair.  Why can't we just have Barbara Gordon the way she is meant to be?  Why can't Barbara Gordon ever just be presented on the big screen the way she is in the comics?
Why does she always have to be changed?  
They would never change Batman, superman or any other male heros.
I also dont want Oracle I want Batgirl fighting side by side with the Bat family in the movies.

----------


## RedBird

> So have use read that the Batgirl movie is looking for a woman of color to play Batgirl? The article also says it will be an origin movie done in flashbacks.


Uh do you have a source for that? All I have seen in terms of casting is this suggestion of Jane Levy for the role.

Heres an artists interpretation of what she could potentially look like.

Screen Shot 2017-06-26 at 8.10.14 PM.jpg

[X]

----------


## RedQueen

The source is 4chan. Some source on 4chan also said the same thing about Mera and then Amber heard was cast...I'd probably wait until a site like Variety or Hollywood Reporter covers it. I'm in mind for the best actress for the part but I wouldn't bet on 4chan as a good source.

Anyways, official sources said it would be based on New 52 Batgirl which means TKJ already happen and she's still gonna be Batgirl. I read the pitch and what the "source" said and I seriously doubt they'd do another entire flashback movie and it sounds like it's gonna be used as a launch pad for other characters which is kind of stupid for a first solo outing.

here's what everyone is reading and sourcing http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/93440061

----------


## sorboares

This is the article I read http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/w...y-may-feature/

----------


## Godlike13

I think every comic movie gets that rumor, lol.

----------


## Carabas

> I also dont want Oracle I want Batgirl fighting side by side with the Bat family in the movies.


I doubt there will ever even be a Bat-family in the movies to fight alongside in the first place.

----------


## RedQueen

> This is the article I read http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/w...y-may-feature/


their source is the 4chan thread. If you look right at the bottom it's the same 4chan thing I linked. It's way too early for Batgirl to begin casting when Whedon is working on JL, and considering he picked to do Batgirl personally to do, it would be something he would be heavily involved with and the dude would just be way to busy atm. If anything the most legit stuff will happen at SDCC which ain't far away. I wouldn't worry about anything Batgirl related yet. 

But I'm down for whoever they cast, I mean they've given us people like Gal Gadot and Ezra Miller who are awesome.

----------


## RedQueen

> I think every comic movie gets that rumor, lol.


That's very true.

----------


## Frontier

> I doubt there will ever even be a Bat-family in the movies to fight alongside in the first place.


Well, we've got Batman, Nightwing, and Batgirl. That's, like, 3/4 of the core Batfamily right there  :Smile: .

----------


## Carabas

> their source is the 4chan thread.


How on earth is 4-chan a credible source?

----------


## RedQueen

> How on earth is 4-chan a credible source?


If it offers up a clickbait title then they'll milk it. People are already eating it up on twitter.

----------


## Assam

> Well, we've got Batman, Nightwing, and Batgirl. That's, like, 3/4 of the core Batfamily right there .


More like 3/4ths of what non-comic readers unfortunately think the Batfamily is entirely made up of. 

Also, yeah, its 4-chan, so the rumor is almost certainly false, and completely made up. That said, if they do cast an actress of a _certain_ background as Babs, my rage will know no limits. 

I still don't know for sure who I think should play her, but if she was younger, my top pick would be Babs's actress from the BoP live action series.

----------


## Frontier

> More like 3/4ths of what non-comic readers unfortunately think the Batfamily is entirely made up of.


Well, I think Batman, Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl have always been the major core of the family, no matter who's inhabiting those identities and since they're the most important pillars of the family. 

But that's not to say there haven't been integral additions to the family over time, though there will probably always be some variant of that core 4 in play.

----------


## yohyoi

> Well, I think Batman, Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl have always been the major core of the family, no matter who's inhabiting those identities and since they're the most important pillars of the family. 
> 
> But that's not to say there haven't been integral additions to the family over time, though there will probably always be some variant of that core 4 in play.


The general crowd doesn't even know who Nightwing is. Most people still think there is one Robin. Warner Bros. will need a Nightwing movie detailing Robin growing up, falling out with Batman and becoming Nightwing. Even The Killing Joke is not widely known, which only exacerbates the problem of showing a young woman getting paralyzed and sexually harassed by a psychotic clown. WB will need balls to properly make a Nightwing and Batgirl movie.

My greatest fear is WB destroys the characters for Batman wankering. It happened in The Killing Joke movie. Babs was portrayed as hormonal groupie whose mission is to make sure Batman sees her as a woman. Even getting attached to a no name, who in God's good Earth names himself Paris Franz, just because he is showing her some wanted attention. There was no commentary on how Batman is endangering kids and young adults in his crusade. Nor was there blame or anger for Batman's refusal to kill the Joker again and again. Nor was there any scenes of Babs recovering mentally, psychologically and physically. We see Babs back on a wheelchair as Oracle ready to serve Batman, the same way she did as Batgirl. No PTSD. No change. Not even a single word.

I can imagine WB making Dick in to a stuck-up teenager who thinks he doesn't need Batman. It will absolve Batman of the fall out, and then he can return to brooding on the death of his parents. I hope to be proven wrong, but there hasn't been any good example of Nightwing focused movie/episode. Even Young Justice did a time skip and simply showed Dick is Nightwing now. This is the first movie portrayal of Nightwing: Year One. I hope they at least keep the characterizations.

----------


## Frontier

> The general crowd doesn't even know who Nightwing is. Most people still think there is one Robin. DC will need a Nightwing movie detailing Robin growing up, falling out with Batman and becoming Nightwing. Even The Killing Joke is not widely known, which only exacerbates the problem of showing a young woman getting paralyzed and sexually harassed by a psychotic clown. Warner Bros. will need balls to properly make a Nightwing and Batgirl movie.
> 
> My greatest fear is WB destroys the characters for Batman wankering. It happened in The Killing Joke movie. Babs was portrayed as hormonal groupie whose mission is to make sure Batman sees her as a woman. Even getting attached to a no name, who in God's good Earth names himself Paris Franz, just because he is showing her some wanted attention. There was no commentary on how Batman is endangering kids and young adults in his crusade. Nor was there blame or anger for Batman's refusal to kill the Joker again and again. Nor was there any scenes of Babs recovering mentally, psychologically and physically. We see Babs back on a wheelchair as Oracle ready to serve Batman, the same way she did as Batgirl. No PTSD. No change. Not even a single word.
> 
> I can imagine WB making Dick in to a stuck-up teenager who thinks he doesn't need Batman. It will absolve Batman of the fall out, and then he can return to brooding on the death of his parents. I hope to be proven wrong, but there hasn't been any good example of Nightwing focused movie/episode. Even Young Justice did a time skip and simply showed Dick is Nightwing now. This is the first movie portrayal of Nightwing: Year One. I hope they at least keep the characterizations.


The last thing I'm expecting is for a Babs on par with the take on the _Killing Joke_ animated movie. 

The costume might be similar though...

----------


## DoctorWho

After reading the new Hawkeye comic, I really want Kelly Thompson writing Barbara Gordon. Her take on Kate Bishop is hip, cool and a good detective comic, everything I think Batgirl of Burnside should be. I loved Cameron Stewart's, but Hope Larson run is... way too silly. I feel like she didn't understand very well what people actually liked about the previous run.

----------


## batsgrayson

It's funny, I'm enjoying this run more than Stweart and Fletcher's.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's funny, I'm enjoying this run more than Stweart and Fletcher's.


I am as well, but since I loathed the Burnside run, that doesn't take much.

----------


## Rac7d*

Is batgirl the number 2 female in dc?

----------


## Frontier

> After reading the new Hawkeye comic, I really want Kelly Thompson writing Barbara Gordon. Her take on Kate Bishop is hip, cool and a good detective comic, everything I think Batgirl of Burnside should be. I loved Cameron Stewart's, but Hope Larson run is... way too silly. I feel like she didn't understand very well what people actually liked about the previous run.


I think Thompson could probably write a good Barbara Gordon or modern Batgirl, I just wouldn't want her to try and make her "hip" ala Burnside. 




> Is batgirl the number 2 female in dc?


I think it's a toss-up between Lois, Catwoman, Harley, Supergirl and Batgirl.

----------


## Red obin

> I think Thompson could probably write a good Barbara Gordon or modern Batgirl, I just wouldn't want her to try and make her "hip" ala Burnside. 
> 
> 
> I think it's a toss-up between Lois, Catwoman, Harley, Supergirl and Batgirl.


and wonder woman
I would say she is third behind Wonder Woman and Harley.

----------


## RedQueen

Yeah I'd say top 4 with Wondy, Supergirl and Harley Quinn. The other 3 have benefited from live action adaptations, especially Harley who has become something of a pop culture hit. It would be interesting to see what Barbara will gain from a live action adaptation. I'd like some news with SDCC but who knows with Justice League promotion being the priority.

----------


## Red obin

I wonder where batgirl is in the YJ season 3 teasers- I thought i heard that her VA had already been recording lines so she will be there in some capacity.

----------


## RedQueen

> I wonder where batgirl is in the YJ season 3 teasers- I thought i heard that her VA had already been recording lines so she will be there in some capacity.


true yeah. I love YJ but I wish there weren't so many characters because you never really get news on previously established characters

----------


## RedQueen

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batgi...t-year-a152704

_"Speaking to IGN, DCEU Producer, Geoff Johns, saying Whedon will start on the film next year.  “But for Batman what I will say is that Batman is more than just Batman and, you know, it’s been way too long since we’ve seen, you know, an expansion of that universe, and Batgirl – we are doing Batgirl with Joss Whedon, it’s going to be super exciting. He’s going to start that next year, and that’s just the start,” he explained."_

Looks like Batgirl is the next movie to begin production after Aquaman. Interesting that she's a priority, just in terms while Justice League solos being hard to get off the ground. DC/WB must have a lot of confidence in Joss for it to begin so soon. I'm definitely not complaining, it's just such a whirlwind at the rate Barbara's solo outing will be right around the corner, even before Batman or Nightwing, which I've seen some people get a bit pissed about her movie coming before theirs. 

It's happening very quick, which I think is the benefit of having someone with experience of Whedon. I'm not always his biggest fan but he does always put in solid work. The dude got worn down by Marvel execs and AoU so maybe Batgirl will revive his creativeness again. I'm not nervous about Batgirl at all, except for TKJ stuff..

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yeah I'd say top 4 with Wondy, Supergirl and Harley Quinn.


I don't know. Poison Ivy and Catwoman costumes are usually more popular during Halloween and costume parties than Batgirl too, which I assume bring in more money than comics. It's hard to rank the DC women in popularity after Wonder Woman, though I _guess_ you could say Harley Quinn is currently #2

But it's great that DC has so many pop-culture embedded female characters. The competition is facing a lot of problems regarding this same subject.

----------


## Confuzzled

Wasn't Babs set up to be the head trainer and on-field guide for the teens at the end of YJ2? With the older Season 1 bunch teased to be working as a covert ops team in YJ3, I think chances look good that Barbara has taken over for Dick and co.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batgi...t-year-a152704
> 
> _"Speaking to IGN, DCEU Producer, Geoff Johns, saying Whedon will start on the film next year.  “But for Batman what I will say is that Batman is more than just Batman and, you know, it’s been way too long since we’ve seen, you know, an expansion of that universe, and Batgirl – we are doing Batgirl with Joss Whedon, it’s going to be super exciting. He’s going to start that next year, and that’s just the start,” he explained."_
> 
> Looks like Batgirl is the next movie to begin production after Aquaman. Interesting that she's a priority, just in terms while Justice League solos being hard to get off the ground. DC/WB must have a lot of confidence in Joss for it to begin so soon. I'm definitely not complaining, it's just such a whirlwind at the rate Barbara's solo outing will be right around the corner, even before Batman or Nightwing, which I've seen some people get a bit pissed about her movie coming before theirs. 
> 
> It's happening very quick, which I think is the benefit of having someone with experience of Whedon. I'm not always his biggest fan but he does always put in solid work. The dude got worn down by Marvel execs and AoU so maybe Batgirl will revive his creativeness again. I'm not nervous about Batgirl at all, except for TKJ stuff..


Shazam and Suicide Squad are starting production next fyi then Batgirl. I suspect they will squeeze in Batman as well but one these might get released later.

----------


## RedQueen

> Shazam and Suicide Squad are starting production next fyi then Batgirl. I suspect they will squeeze in Batman as well but one these might get released later.


Yeah Shazam will be awesome  but I so hope they release the cast soon at sdcc. I don't see Suicide Squad being prioritized over Gotham City Sirens or that Harley v Joker movie because the star power is harley, and they seemed to be harley focused movies.

----------


## batsgrayson

https://twitter.com/HolyBatCast/stat...56124954259456

Robin and Poison Ivy in the Batgirl film?

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://twitter.com/HolyBatCast/stat...56124954259456
> 
> Robin and Poison Ivy in the Batgirl film?


when batman doesnt give her chance, isnt robin always supportive

----------


## Frontier

I hope she has this look in the movie and (eventually) in the comics:

----------


## batsgrayson

The guy from the tweet said she had her current comic look, but we don't know if that means something yet.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah Shazam will be awesome  but I so hope they release the cast soon at sdcc. I don't see Suicide Squad being prioritized over Gotham City Sirens or that Harley v Joker movie because the star power is harley, and they seemed to be harley focused movies.


Well the Joker vs Harley rumor was just that and I dont think Sirens will be out before 2020 whereas with Squad they're aiming for a 2019 release. Also WB realizes that publishing Harley comics multiple times a month is a heck a lot more easier than movies.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## RedQueen

Heard that the writer of Batgirl said on twitter that after next issue, the next arc will get dark. I'm assuming the next arc will be the one with dick? I wonder in what ways, but I don't think it will mean a new tone for the title, just thematically.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Heard that the writer of Batgirl said on twitter that after next issue, the next arc will get dark. I'm assuming the next arc will be the one with dick? I wonder in what ways, but I don't think it will mean a new tone for the title, just thematically.


Its got Mad Hatter in it.

----------


## CPSparkles

Congratulations to the Babsgirl team on their recent nomination. It was well earned.

----------


## RedQueen

^^^^that's some dope art. Very cool design for babs with her classic comic colors.

----------


## Frontier

> Congratulations to the Babsgirl team on their recent nomination. It was well earned.


Ooh! I really like Babs' outfit here (minus the letterman jacket)  :Big Grin: .

Also, congratulations to the current creative team on their nomination  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Congratulations to the Babsgirl team on their recent nomination. It was well earned.


Oh, wow, that's really cute stuff. What's the source - or is that you, CPS?  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

I read the batman Zero hour TPB today and it just reminded me how much more badass the her classic design looked.

----------


## Assam

Hate.jpg

I was just informed that there have been _multiple_ instances of people who miss Oracle being vilified over the last several years. I have no idea about the details, but if anyone would like to share, please do so. If anyone would like to explain why the f**k people still read this, that'd be great too.  :Mad:

----------


## Frontier

> Hate.jpg
> 
> I was just informed that there have been _multiple_ instances of people who miss Oracle being vilified over the last several years. I have no idea about the details, but if anyone would like to share, please do so. If anyone would like to explain why the f**k people still read this, that'd be great too.


I mean, I enjoy Barbara as Oracle and I completely understand the value of that role and all the character development that gave Babs as a character and the role it carved for her in the DCU and the Batfamily. So I totally understand why people still miss Oracle and they are totally justified in that opinion and don't deserve to be vilified for it. 

I just also happen to really enjoy her as Batgirl, which is why I wish her solo book was better (or at least more to my tastes as far as a Batgirl book in the main universe is concerned) and I find _Birds of Prey_ to be a fun book with a good dynamic between the three leads. 

But that's just me.

----------


## Godlike13

Oracle isnt vilified.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Yeah I'd say top 4 with Wondy, Supergirl and Harley Quinn. The other 3 have benefited from live action adaptations, especially Harley who has become something of a pop culture hit. It would be interesting to see what Barbara will gain from a live action adaptation. I'd like some news with SDCC but who knows with Justice League promotion being the priority.


I would say: 
*
Classic Iconic Trio:* Wonder Woman, Lois, Catwoman

*Younger Iconic Trio:* Harley, Supergirl, Batgirl

*DC Pillars Woman (2016-17)* Wonder Woman and Harley

Now if this movie gets off the ground and is successful, then you can add Batgirl to the DC Pillars Woman list.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I miss Oracle but I also love Babs as Batgirl, even if I don't always love the direction her solo or team book are heading. Batgirl Year One is a phenomenal book and as far as I'm concerned Babs can coast on that for a while longer  :Smile: 

For the life of me I can't understand why DC gave the Oracle mantle to a lemon like Gus though. He is the _worst_. Why not Frankie Charles? She is one of the best things to come from the Burnside run, she is Babs friend and has proven herself trustworthy. Plus she looks bad ass. It seems like a no brainer.

----------


## RedQueen

I don't know any details about oracle fans being vilified, the only thing I've really seen on here is the oracle v batgirl debate. nothing to the extent of being vilified, but just debate from both sides, sometimes it can get heated but that happens with other debates on the forum too. 

Yeah Gus has got to go. They tried, and it isn't working. I gave him a shot but really Frankie or someone else needs the Oracle mantel. I enjoy the title itself but the Oracle thing is really dragging the dynamic down. Frankie could easily mesh in with the girls. Oracle is supposed to be a mantel representing strength for the field team and Gus still needs to be babysat and the only dynamic he has is with Babs. if you have Oracle, they need to be be the backbone for the field team. 

The writers need to do something about the oracle situation because Gus isn't being accepted. I have some friends who dropped the title because of how lame the Oracle reveal was. My one issue with the title is literally Gus because I don't really care about him. Just a trade up for Frankie would make me happy.

----------


## RedQueen

> Why not Frankie Charles? She is one of the best things to come from the Burnside run, she is Babs friend and has proven herself trustworthy. Plus she looks bad ass. It seems like a no brainer.


That's what got me. She was literally right there for the taking. And Gus is able-bodied with no establishment other than being a fangirl of babs. Feels like such waste of a mantel.

----------


## millernumber1

Just got done watching Young Justice for the first time, and I really enjoyed Batgirl. I wish we'd gotten more time with her - and more time with the Batfamily with Batman, but I love that she was so capable, and that she was taking Dick's place on the team at the end of the season. I hope she continues next season!

----------


## Frontier

> Just got done watching Young Justice for the first time, and I really enjoyed Batgirl. I wish we'd gotten more time with her - and more time with the Batfamily with Batman, but I love that she was so capable, and that she was taking Dick's place on the team at the end of the season. I hope she continues next season!


It'd be interesting and cool if we see her mentor Steph as Spoiler to some degree, either as an active Batgirl or potentially as Oracle depending on what's happened during the time-skip.

----------


## Assam

> That's what got me. She was literally right there for the taking. And Gus is able-bodied with no establishment other than being a fangirl of babs. Feels like such waste of a mantel.


I don't know who this Frankie person is, but a quick google search tells me that she needs to use crutches to get around. Just from that, I would have preferred her in the Oracle role. (How did anyone think making an able bodied man Oracle was a good idea?!  :Mad: ) Another google search also netted me learning that Babs apparently compared herself to Oracle again because she was using a computer. F**king Hell. 




> It'd be interesting and cool if we see her mentor Steph as Spoiler to some degree, either as an active Batgirl or potentially as Oracle depending on what's happened during the time-skip.


The fact that Babs wasn't show-off as Batgirl alongside the rest of the season 2 cast is all I've got to hold onto. It's all I got.

----------


## millernumber1

> It'd be interesting and cool if we see her mentor Steph as Spoiler to some degree, either as an active Batgirl or potentially as Oracle depending on what's happened during the time-skip.


I like that idea a lot! I just hope we get a bit more of the Bat-characters other than Nightwing (including Bruce, surprisingly) than we did in season 2. I love what the show did with all the characters, but I'm a Batfam fan first and foremost.  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

Oracle shouldn't be a mantle. Oracle is Babs intellectual property. I know no one is asking, but this is what I would do with Oracle. I would have Babs turn Oracle into new fictional superhero app, along the lines of Siri and Watson, exclusively available to various superheros and oversaw by Babs herself and maybe a collection of various trusted allies. This way even as Batgirl she can moonlight as Oracle whenever they want. The more mundane things Oracle did would be taken care of by the app's AI, while the more complicated stuff Babs would have to handle herself.

----------


## Frontier

Oracle is also Babs' British AI in _DC Super Hero Girls,_ if I recall correctly. 



> The fact that Babs wasn't show-off as Batgirl alongside the rest of the season 2 cast is all I've got to hold onto. It's all I got.


Well, we also didn't see Kaldur, M'Gann, or some of the other season 2 members, so it might not be indicative of anything. 

I'm fine either way and Weisman and co. will probably go with whatever they feel is right for the story. 



> I like that idea a lot! I just hope we get a bit more of the Bat-characters other than Nightwing (including Bruce, surprisingly) than we did in season 2. I love what the show did with all the characters, but I'm a Batfam fan first and foremost.


I think Greg Weisman is a pretty big Batman fan (on-top of also being a Green Arrow and Flash fan), so I think he'll try to do the Batfamily justice as he has in the past  :Smile: .

It'll be interesting to see what the team dynamics will be like. Steph being on the Team at all is a level of official recognition that she never really got as Spoiler until way later in her career.

----------


## RedQueen

I'm really excited for YJ season 3 but I'm super bummed about another time jump. I don't mind a couple of of months but everyone seems to have aged up again and the team and mains are a revolving door of characters that it's hard to form an attachment too. That's my one bummer with it, but I am super stoked for it coming back on. Barbara should be interesting with the leadership role last season. But with the time jump I doubt we'll see any of it to make way for the new status quo. 

I would kill for some Dinah and Babs interaction. I don't think they've ever been animated together so it would be rad to finally see them.

----------


## Godlike13

> Oracle is also Babs' British AI in _DC Super Hero Girls,_ if I recall correctly.


I honestly did not know that, but there you go.

----------


## RedQueen

hey I know it's Barbara's 50th this year and all, but has anyone seen anything celebrating or promoting that? Cause I recently saw stuff for Harley's 25th and it got me thinking that I haven't seen anything promotional like that for Barbara. Have I missed anything?

----------


## yohyoi

> hey I know it's Barbara's 50th this year and all, but has anyone seen anything celebrating or promoting that? Cause I recently saw stuff for Harley's 25th and it got me thinking that I haven't seen anything promotional like that for Barbara. Have I missed anything?


Harley will always be promoted more. She outsells by a landslide in merchandise every female comic character. There's a reason Batman will have to share his day with Harley this year.

There were Batgirl merchandise in SDCC celebrating Barbara's 50th year. The only thing I heard in comics is her involvement in upcoming Gotham City Garage. Batgirl tends to be promoted more outside of comics. Hopefully when her movie comes out that changes.

----------


## millernumber1

> hey I know it's Barbara's 50th this year and all, but has anyone seen anything celebrating or promoting that? Cause I recently saw stuff for Harley's 25th and it got me thinking that I haven't seen anything promotional like that for Barbara. Have I missed anything?


The 50 year anthology!  :Smile:

----------


## RedQueen

thanks I'll check some stuff out!

btw what do you think of Barbara Gotham City Garage design? I thought it looked pretty badas$

----------


## millernumber1

> thanks I'll check some stuff out!
> 
> btw what do you think of Barbara Gotham City Garage design? I thought it looked pretty badas$


You should post a pic so lazy people like me can have an opinion.  :Smile:

----------


## RedQueen

> You should post a pic so lazy people like me can have an opinion.


DC_GCG_batgirl-07172017-615x489.jpg
looks cool me thinks

Her and Kara are sisters in this verse because Kara was raised by Jim alongside Babs apparently.

----------


## Assam

> DC_GCG_batgirl-07172017-615x489.jpg
> looks cool me thinks
> 
> Her and Kara are sisters in this verse because Kara was raised by Jim alongside Babs apparently.


I like the design as well. Unfortunately, I have zero interest in Garage for obvious reasons.

----------


## millernumber1

> DC_GCG_batgirl-07172017-615x489.jpg
> looks cool me thinks
> 
> Her and Kara are sisters in this verse because Kara was raised by Jim alongside Babs apparently.


Interesting! She seems to be stealing some of Zinda Blake's look - I'm looking forward to the Kelly/Lanzig series coming out soon!

----------


## Assam

> Interesting! She seems to be stealing some of Zinda Blake's look - I'm looking forward to the Kelly/Lanzig series coming out soon!


Curious, why are you OK with Garage when you're  not with Bombshells? Still holding out feint hope?

----------


## millernumber1

> Curious, why are you OK with Garage when you're  not with Bombshells? Still holding out feint hope?


Well, I really, really dislike Bennett's writing in Bombshells (I've read at least 50 of the issues, so I did give it a chance), and even though the art is pretty fun, I'm not really a fan of the whole concept of superheros fighting in a real life war (or really any war). Historical war is too complicated and messy for me to really enjoy the stronger contrasts between good and evil that superheros are best suited for (and while I do think there's plenty of room for moral complexity in superheros, I'm not a fan of things like Watchmen that undermine the very concept of an inspirational figure who becomes a hero because he or she wants to make the world a better place - stories that undermine the very possibility of altruistic heroism).

Plus, there's the Issue of erasing Steph and Cass that I almost never forgive. I don't really hold out hope that Garage will have them, because editorial hates us, but I've really enjoyed the issues of Batman and Robin Eternal that Lanzig and Kelly wrote, so I hope I'll enjoy these issues!  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

I don't love the bombshell look, and might wait for TPBs before looking at the series, as I don't have room for a twice monthly at the moment.

----------


## Frontier

> DC_GCG_batgirl-07172017-615x489.jpg
> looks cool me thinks
> 
> Her and Kara are sisters in this verse because Kara was raised by Jim alongside Babs apparently.


Feels like an interesting contrast with the Burnside look, given it's using the traditional black and yellow colors (and is a little more justified being a jacket and pants look in my opinion). 

I'm interested in seeing what Babs and Kara's sister dynamic might be like in the comic, since that feels like a sensible and cool relationship development  :Smile: .

----------


## RedQueen

I liked Bombshells initially and I enjoy the concepts but Bennet's writing just isn't for me. And now it's gonna tackle issues such as internment camps which I'm side eyeing a bit because I've been caustic about how she's approached other sensitive subject manner too...


I'm more into apocalyptic futures in comics more so than historical stuff they try to tackle. Gonna give Gotham City Garage a go. The interviews seem to make it very Mad Max like in themes.  GCG seems very up my alley. And Barda is in it so I'm gonna definitely give this one for the long haul.

----------


## RedQueen

> Feels like an interesting contrast with the Burnside look, given it's using the traditional black and yellow colors (and is a little more justified being a jacket and pants look in my opinion). 
> 
> I'm interested in seeing what Babs and Kara's sister dynamic might be like in the comic, since that feels like a sensible and cool relationship development .


Agree. Kind of glad to see the yellow and black come back. It's very striking on this look. 

They said something Barbara being dark or something so I wouldn't be shocked if she was the brooder of the two sisters.

----------


## Frontier

> Agree. Kind of glad to see the yellow and black come back. It's very striking on this look. 
> 
> They said something Barbara being dark or something so I wouldn't be shocked if she was the brooder of the two sisters.


I wouldn't be surprised if she comes off like Alex Danvers from the _Supergirl_ TV show.

----------


## millernumber1

Some awesome deals on Comixology for a Gail Simone sale, with the Batgirl 50th anniversary anthology on sale for 10 dollars, and a bunch of classic Birds of Prey. I'm really tempted to get some of the best Babs stories ever!

https://www.comixology.com/comics-sa...d=18540&lang=1

----------


## RedQueen

BatBOP #13 preview..

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...17&postcount=1

----------


## Caivu

Today marks Barbara Gordon's 50th anniversary!

----------


## robert

Wasn't her debut on November 29, 1966, in Detective Comics Vol 1 #359?

----------


## Caivu

> Wasn't her debut on November 29, 1966, in Detective Comics Vol 1 #359?


She debuted on the show first.

----------


## Assam

Happy 50th Anniversary Babs! Hope you find your way back to the DCU one of these days.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Happy 50th Anniversary Babs! Hope you find your way back to the DCU one of these days.


What do you mean? She's still here, lol

----------


## Assam

> What do you mean? She's still here, lol


not my mom.jpg

Really, FakeBabs is as much Barbara Gordon as Bar-Torr was Bart Allen.

----------


## KrustyKid

> not my mom.jpg
> 
> Really, FakeBabs is as much Barbara Gordon as *Bar-Torr* was Bart Allen.


Auugghhh, don't remind me of that.. not Bart.

----------


## Frontier

> Happy 50th Anniversary Babs! Hope you find your way back to the DCU one of these days.


Well, we've got a decidedly younger Barbara Gordon running around at least. 

I know that's obviously not the Barbara Gordon you want or love, but I think she has her moments even if she's not my ideal take either.

But, yes, happy 50th Babs, OG Batgirl and Oracle  :Smile: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Happy 50th Anniversary Babs! Hope you find your way back to the DCU one of these days.


Lmao my thoughts exactly

----------


## Godlike13

Yawn, as if pre-Flashpoint Babs was 1960s Babs.

----------


## Carabas

> Yawn, as if pre-Flashpoint Babs was 1960s Babs.


Hey now. No Oracle hate in an Oracle appreciation thread.

----------


## Godlike13

What hate? I adored Oracle. Nevertheless times change, characters change. That just how it is for a character they want to be around for 50 years.

----------


## Confuzzled

I think Barbara has evolved in as natural a way as possible for a recurring fictional character interpreted by multiple creators over half a century.

Btw what _is_ it 50 years of exactly? Babsgirl's debut issue was in January 1967, wasn't it?

----------


## Assam

> I think Barbara has evolved in as natural a way as possible for a recurring fictional character interpreted by multiple creators over half a century.


I'd personally say its been one of the least natural ways a could change. Definitely wouldn't use the word "evolve". 

She started as generic as every other character of her era. Then, regardless of how interesting one found her, she became more defined. Then she was shelved for a long time. Then the atrocity that is the Killing Joke happened and fridged her. Then Ostrander came along and, being the great writer he is, made something brilliant out of something awful. (People who say that Killing Joke gave us Oracle need to stop) Then various writers continued what Ostrander started and made Babs into one of the most important and well developed characters in the DCU, her status as a handicapped woman being so powerful being incredibly inspirational for many, and taking on multiple successors to her original mantle, even becoming a mother figure to one of them. Then years upon years of development was undone, she started walking again because shut up, she was de-aged, and her successors were erased from existence. And THEN she became whatever the Hell BurnsideBabs is supposed to be. 

What exactly is natural about this?

----------


## robert

Yes, the January 1967 issue of Tec was released end of November 1966.
The TV episode, featuring Babs first apperance, aired in September 1967.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'd personally say its been one of the least natural ways a could change. Definitely wouldn't use the word "evolve". 
> 
> She started as generic as every other character of her era. Then, regardless of how interesting one found her, she became more defined. Then she was shelved for a long time. Then the atrocity that is the Killing Joke happened and fridged her. Then Ostrander came along and, being the great writer he is, made something brilliant out of something awful. (People who say that Killing Joke gave us Oracle need to stop) Then various writers continued what Ostrander started and made Babs into one of the most important and well developed characters in the DCU, her status as a handicapped woman being so powerful being incredibly inspirational for many, and taking on multiple successors to her original mantle, even becoming a mother figure to one of them. Then years upon years of development was undone, she started walking again because shut up, she was de-aged, and her successors were erased from existence. And THEN she became whatever the Hell BurnsideBabs is supposed to be. 
> 
> What exactly is natural about this?


She was way more headstrong, well-defined and independent than most 60's comic book ladies lol. And uh, Simone did deliver a pretty satisfying trauma recovery character arc for her. Babs then wanted a break from all the grimdark! intensity and hence Burnside. Whatever. I was a pretty serious high schooler myself and then decided to loosen up once in college and became way more goofier too. Doesn't mean I "devolved" or was "unnatural".  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Yes, the January 1967 issue of Tec was released end of November 1966.
> The TV episode, featuring Babs first apperance, aired in September 1967.


Oh okay, so it's the 50th anniversary of her show debut. There's been a lot of misinformation spreading on social media due to confusion so thanks for that clarification.  :Smile:

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Hey now. No Oracle hate in an Oracle appreciation thread.


To be fair, there's plenty of Batgirl hate in this thread. Lol

----------


## dietrich

Really cool to see Babsgirl featured in the WW HISE video Babs from 2.53

----------


## RedQueen

> Really cool to see Babsgirl featured in the WW HISE video Babs from 2.53


lol loved the "you work with my dad" comment.

----------


## dietrich

> lol loved the "you work with my dad" comment.


I know right

----------


## Confuzzled

> lol loved the "you work with my dad" comment.


It's almost like an intentional diss at Bruce Timm  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> It's almost like an intentional diss at Bruce Timm


Lol. Good Dude needs to calm down

----------


## brainy1313

A special little treat in honor of Babs' 50th!

----------


## adrikito

> Really cool to see Babsgirl featured in the WW HISE video Babs from 2.53


Is because............ because.... I AM BATMAN..

Good batgirl costume, is like return with the first costume of batgirl in the animated serie..




> I'd personally say its been one of the least natural ways a could change. Definitely wouldn't use the word "evolve". 
> 
> She started as generic as every other character of her era. Then, regardless of how interesting one found her, she became more defined. Then she was shelved for a long time. Then the atrocity that is the Killing Joke happened and fridged her. Then Ostrander came along and, being the great writer he is, made something brilliant out of something awful. (People who say that Killing Joke gave us Oracle need to stop) Then various writers continued what Ostrander started and made Babs into one of the most important and well developed characters in the DCU, her status as a handicapped woman being so powerful being incredibly inspirational for many, and taking on multiple successors to her original mantle, even becoming a mother figure to one of them. 
> 
> Then years upon years of development was undone, she started walking again because shut up, she was de-aged, and her successors were erased from existence. *And THEN she became whatever the Hell BurnsideBabs is supposed to be.* 
> 
> What exactly is natural about this?


She need a change... A BIG CHANGE.. Make her more mature, forget burnside rules than changed her..

This is my 4TH comment here(with more than 1 year here) and I respected her but burnside.... changed that..
*
Steph and Cass are characters with more pages of appreciation here than one succeful character with her own comic.. SOMETHING IS WRONG.*

----------


## RedQueen

I'm just curious, with Barbara in a position where she can't go back and her being in sort of "rut" I guess in terms of what fans want her character to be, what would be the best for her going forward? 

I definitely agree with some people that she needs to change or evolve and so I really just wanna see Greg Rucka give her a go.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm just curious, with Barbara in a position where she can't go back and her being in sort of "rut" I guess in terms of what fans want her character to be, what would be the best for her going forward? 
> 
> I definitely agree with some people that she needs to change or evolve and so I really just wanna see Greg Rucka give her a go.


I doubt we're going to see her stop being Batgirl with the movie happening. 

If nothing else I think it's going to inspire DC to revamp her to be more in-line with what the DCEU is going to do, which I doubt will be all that reflective of the Burnside run. 

Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.

----------


## Godlike13

Bring together Oracle and Batgirl.

----------


## Frontier

> Bring together Oracle and Batgirl.


I mean, they've been trying to do this in certain respects for a while now by making Barbara a lot more tech-based.

----------


## Godlike13

> I mean, they've been trying to do this in certain respects for a while now by making Barbara a lot more tech-based.


Ya, but kind of half baked. I mean full on intergration of Oracle and Batgirl, with modern technology of today. But no I hacked your gun garbage.

----------


## Assam

> I'm just curious, with Barbara in a position where she can't go back and her being in sort of "rut" I guess in terms of what fans want her character to be, what would be the best for her going forward?


Best Case Scenario? Something in Doomsday Clock has a "Superboy Prime Punch" effect, changing various remnants of the Nu52's stank, including retconning out the last 6/7 years of Batgirl stories. 

Best Case Scenario while keeping in mind DC's idiotic "ONE TRUE BATGIRL" policy?Three Things: 

1. Have her act and look like Oracle. 

2. Connected to that, age her up to close to 30. 

3. Take notes from Millernumber1's suggestions: Her treatment/surgery/implants/ I don't care starts to fail, making it so she spends the majority of her time as Oracle, not wanting to do further damage to her body/speed up the rate at which she's losing her mobility entirely, only going out as Batgirl when all hands are needed on deck out in the field. 

Now yes, this would mean DC couldn't publish an ongoing Batgirl title, but that's their problem, not mine. 

And really thinking about it, this is the only option for me. (Under the current circumstances)  Retcon out Killing Joke? Never gonna happen, and that comes with its own set of problems. Combine Batgirl and Oracle (Similar to what they're doing now)? HEINOUS.

----------


## Frontier

> Best Case Scenario? Something in Doomsday Clock has a "Superboy Prime Punch" effect, changing various remnants of the Nu52's stank, including retconning out the last 6/7 years of Batgirl stories. 
> 
> Best Case Scenario while keeping in mind DC's idiotic "ONE TRUE BATGIRL" policy?Three Things: 
> 
> 1. Have her act and look like Oracle. 
> 
> 2. Connected to that, age her up to close to 30. 
> 
> 3. Take notes from Millernumber1's suggestions: Her treatment/surgery/implants/ I don't care starts to fail, making it so she spends the majority of her time as Oracle, not wanting to do further damage to her body/speed up the rate at which she's losing her mobility entirely, only going out as Batgirl when all hands are needed on deck out in the field. 
> ...


Well, I would appreciate her acting more her age in her solo book, or at least less like a millennial Batgirl and more like the actual Barbara Gordon Batgirl.

----------


## atomicbattery

Very much looking forward to December.
Always fun when Barbara and Harley get together (Dini's 'Batgirl Adventures' #1 is a favorite I revisit often), and Sami Basri is a wonderful artist. 'Batgirl'#18 will look great.
And exciting to see Batgirl front and center on 'White Knight' #3. Can't wait to see Barbara's "pivotal" (per Murphy) role in this story play out.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Is because............ because.... I AM BATMAN..
> 
> Good batgirl costume, is like return with the first costume of batgirl in the animated serie..
> 
> 
> 
> She need a change... A BIG CHANGE.. Make her more mature, forget burnside rules than changed her..
> 
> This is my 4TH comment here(with more than 1 year here) and I respected her but burnside.... changed that..
> ...


Appreciation pages aren't everything Batman only just got one and it's slow moving, Harley Quinn's isn't that long either but those two are very successful and profitable.

However I do think of a way to get her out of this lull.

----------


## CPSparkles

Happy 50th Babs

----------


## Godlike13

This is a hilariously cool cover.

----------


## Frontier

> This is a hilariously cool cover.


I'm reminded of Babs Tarr's art...

----------


## CPSparkles

> This is a hilariously cool cover.


LOL she lost her beret.
I actually really like this

----------


## RedQueen

> This is a hilariously cool cover.


That is very cool. I'd love any take that makes Babs a biker chick since she's probably the most prominent motorcyclist in the Batfamily so it would be cool to see it done in a Mad Max way.

----------


## dietrich



----------


## CPSparkles

Batgirl by Sami Basri

----------


## CPSparkles

Barb



http://mukimimi.tumblr.com/post/148255958744/barb

----------


## Vinsanity

Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?

----------


## Carabas

> Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?


She supposedly was nothing like the previous version of the character.

Of course that is exactly the reason I didn't like that version either.

----------


## RedQueen

> Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?


Too much of a departure for the character. I thought it was alright at first, but I'm not really satisfied with it being a permanent thing due to the issues with the writing.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?


Love the concept. Slightly meh on the actual execution (though it's enjoyable for the most part).

----------


## Assam

> Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?


In a medium like comics, there are always going to be different takes on characters. But they should still always be recognizable as themselves. Burnside Babs is not Barbara Gordon. 

Though I will say from a purely aesthetic POV, even if it doesn't stack up to the costumes of the other Batgirls at all, Burnside Babs' costume is the best Babsgirl suit. 




> She supposedly was nothing like the previous version of the character.
> 
> Of course that is exactly the reason I didn't like that version either.


I think both Simone's Babgsgirl AND Burnside Babs are nothing like Barbara Gordon.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think both Simone's Babgsgirl AND Burnside Babs are nothing like Barbara Gordon.


How do you expect a person not to undergo massive changes when she is just recovering from trauma of that level that triggers her when she's trying to get back in the game? That's like saying Season 4 Korra was not like the Korra from the previous seasons. That is the point.

----------


## Carabas

> How do you expect a person not to undergo massive changes when she is just recovering from trauma of that level that triggers her when she's trying to get back in the game? That's like saying Season 4 Korra was not like the Korra from the previous seasons. That is the point.


Changes is one thing. Losing huge chunks of her life and of her skills though and growing half a decade or so younger?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Changes is one thing. Losing huge chunks of her life and of her skills though and growing half a decade or so younger?


It was believable for a person suffering from severe PTSD to not be as quick on the uptake as they once were.

And we knew they were deaging her right from the beginning so you got what was written on the tin.

----------


## RedQueen

I thought the PTSD from Simone's run was a pretty powerful narrative. Too often PTSD symptoms are swept aside for the sake of the "brooding" narrative, not to invalidate brooding as a side effect of PTSD but it's treated more often as a character trait in comics, but the PTSD is never addressed. Idk if that makes sense. But I liked that about Babsgirl because it really addressed it directly and yet it didn't define her.

----------


## millernumber1

> Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?


I think the problem for me with Burnside Babs is the following:

1) This is not Babs's fault, but Stewart and Fletcher felt the need to belittle Steph as Batgirl, which never helps anything.

2) The art was really fun, but about halfway through the arc, it stopped being nearly as thoughtful and appealing (Tarr's faces in particular morphed into some really strange shapes) - plus, Tarr dropped out of over half of the issues for fill-in teams (could even get one person to complete a fill-in issue by themselves).

3) The villains were always some bland variation of a tech/hacker villains, except for Velvet Tiger, who was just not very inspiring.

4) The supporting cast was incredibly bland (except visually).

5) Turning Babs's time as Oracle into "Babs creates evil AI" was really offensive to me.

6) Babs was really, really whiny. "My friend is on her honeymoon and can't hold my hand." Ugh.

7) Babs's ever revolving door of boyfriends. I really enjoyed the idea of Luke and Babs, but the execution did nothing for me at all. A real shame, since I really like both characters in general, but together they were so bland.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Was never a fan of Batgirl until Burnside Batgirl. Why do people dislike her?


Because Burnside Batgirl IS NOT BARBARA GORDON. That's the answer to this question. They wrote some 16 year old in replace for Babs and try to make it progressive but it wasn't. They gave her some z-list villains who are already forgotten and they keep constantly writing these dating stories that end up going no where. And that costume! Crime fighting in yellow docs???? There's a reason why the Batfamily don't hang around her no more.

I enjoy Babs as Batgirl but I started reading Simone's BOP and man I love me some Oracle Babs.

----------


## Frontier

I can understand the desire to go in a different direction after how overbearing the dark and grittiness of Simone's run could be, though I also think they went a little too far in the opposite direction. 

I don't want to say the Burnside direction is not Barbara Gordon at all, but at the same time it does sometimes feel like writers are treating her less like Barbara Gordon, seasoned vigilante and Batfamily member, and more like your average hipster millennial. That's at least one thing we didn't get from the Simone era, where Babs generally acted her age. I've honestly seen teen versions of Babs as Batgirl that act more in-character then Burnside has. 

I also think, starting with Burnside, we started to see Batgirl's prominence in the family marginalized and the stakes and meaningfulness of her stories become smaller and smaller, especially when it comes to her relationships with anyone not named Jim Gordon. This feels especially true with Larson's run right now, though I am enjoying the current arc with Nightwing. 



> Though I will say from a purely aesthetic POV, even if it doesn't stack up to the costumes of the other Batgirls at all, Burnside Babs' costume is the best Babsgirl suit.


Personally I've been tempted to make "Better then Burnside" my catchphrase whenever I see a new or old Batgirl costume  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Not that I hate the look, but I don't think she should have been wearing it near as long as she has at this point and it kind of just sums up my issues with Burnside as a whole.

----------


## Godlike13

Burnside Babs was recognizable. Yes it was new and different take but most of the major beats were still there. And it not like its on the direction that Batgirl's prominence in the family has been marginalized. That has happened with Robin too. Creators are trying to push this new crop, and push Batwoman as a more prominent member of the Batfamily, and a pillar, and they have let others fall to the way side in doing so. Thats on DC.

----------


## Carabas

> And we knew they were deaging her right from the beginning so you got what was written on the tin.


How does it change anythingif we knew about it in advance or not?

If they were going to do something like this then they should have deaged her to before the Joker shot her. Not just dump all that made the character great and fun and keep all the misery, with a bunch of all new misery on top of that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> How does it change anythingif we knew about it in advance or not?
> 
> If they were going to do something like this then they should have deaged her to before the Joker shot her. Not just dump all that made the character great and fun and keep all the misery, with a bunch of all new misery on top of that.


I don't see what difference it makes. And misery is the middle name of Gotham denizens.

----------


## berserkerclaw

For me everything done to Batgirl since New 52 is bad IMO. She should have stayed as Oracle.

----------


## Carabas

> I don't see what difference it makes. And misery is the middle name of Gotham denizens.


It wasn't before the New 52. Batman? Sure, with some writers.

Everybody else? No way.

Oracle was practically a feel-good character (until they suddenly decided she should be chronically depressed about being in the chair during the last two years or so of the old universe).

----------


## Agent Z

> It wasn't before the New 52. Batman? Sure, with some writers.
> 
> 
> *Everybody else? No way.*
> 
> Oracle was practically a feel-good character (until they suddenly decided she should be chronically depressed about being in the chair during the last two years or so of the old universe).


Um, Helena Bertinelli, Jason Todd, Jim Gordon, Renee Montoya, virtually every Gotham villain all say hi. Even Stephanie Brown was considerably cyniacal in her early appearances and don't even get me started on what a nightmare Cass' life was.

----------


## Vinsanity

See I felt she is better. Oracle is cool and all but she was written later on as depressed, then Simone's Batgirl wasn't really fun. This Batgirl is especially where we have a lot of cynical heroes or brooding ones. 

It is a refreshing change for me and one that is more chillaxing and engaging. 

To me she's Barbara Gordon, like all the rest of them were. I like her now then she ever was before. She's just fun to read.

----------


## Aahz

> Burnside Babs was recognizable. Yes it was new and different take but most of the major beats were still there. And it not like its on the direction that Batgirl's prominence in the family has been marginalized. That has happened with Robin too. Creators are trying to push this new crop, and push Batwoman as a more prominent member of the Batfamily, and a pillar, and they have let others fall to the way side in doing so. Thats on DC.


I think that they could still far better with some of the characters, I mean it is ok if the more established characters don't appear as frequently as the new ones. But if they appear they the writers should let them at least do something cool. But sofar at least Barbara and Jason (and until recently Tim) were usually competently irrelevant for the plot if they appeared in a bigger storyline.

----------


## Assam

Any story where Babs was depressed about her condition was just as OOC as her Nu52 appearances. 

nothing.jpg

Oracle was confident, cheerful, inspiring, and one of the biggest badasses the DCU has ever seen. As she says here, Joker took _nothing_ from her. In 2011, DC took everything.

----------


## Frontier

Really, it's hard to live in Gotham and not get depressed at some point  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Godlike13

> Any story where Babs was depressed about her condition was just as OOC as her Nu52 appearances. 
> 
> nothing.jpg
> 
> Oracle was confident, cheerful, inspiring, and one of the biggest badasses the DCU has ever seen. As she says here, Joker took _nothing_ from her. In 2011, DC took everything.


Have you actually read that issue?

----------


## Assam

> Have you actually read that issue?


Yes, yes I have. And while I don't like what came _after_   that, this panel is the one the rings true to me.

----------


## millernumber1

I have to admit, much as I think Oracle is much more powerful than Batgirl (and definitely a better written character than Babs has been post-Flashpoint in any incarnation), I think to claim that the Joker didn't hurt her at all (which is how I read "you took nothing") is far too simplistic. When Babs says it, I think she's telling Joker that he took nothing from her value as a person, or her ability to fight evil. But I don't think that Babs would ever say that she is glad he put her in the chair.

I think that one thing n52 does portray accurately is that IF there were an option for Babs to walk again, she would take it. The problem is that DC isn't providing a very plausible or interesting path to that option - it just handwaved it, then made the horrible digi-Babs plotline in Burnside to handwave it a little slower.

----------


## Assam

> I have to admit, much as I think Oracle is much more powerful than Batgirl (and definitely a better written character than Babs has been post-Flashpoint in any incarnation), I think to claim that the Joker didn't hurt her at all (which is how I read "you took nothing") is far too simplistic. When Babs says it, I think she's telling Joker that he took nothing from her value as a person, or her ability to fight evil. But I don't think that Babs would ever say that she is glad he put her in the chair.
> 
> I think that one thing n52 does portray accurately is that IF there were an option for Babs to walk again, she would take it. The problem is that DC isn't providing a very plausible or interesting path to that option - it just handwaved it, then made the horrible digi-Babs plotline in Burnside to handwave it a little slower.


Of course I don't think she's _glad_ that she was put in the chair or that she wouldn't take the opportunity to walk again in a heartbeat if given the option, but I believe, and I believe Babs believed, that being in the chair didn't make her any less of a person, which a lot of Babsgirl fans disgustingly believe.

----------


## millernumber1

> Of course I don't think she's _glad_ that she was put in the chair or that she wouldn't take the opportunity to walk again in a heartbeat if given the option, but I believe, and I believe Babs believed, that being in the chair didn't make any less of a person, which a lot of Babsgirl fans disgustingly believe.


That I completely, and wholeheartedly agree with.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

Well, i'm one of those fans whose exposure to Barbara in the comic books was when she was Oracle, i know very little about her Pre-Crisis story (also Batgirl: Year One is awesome) and enjoyed Cassandra and Stephan¡e periods in the mantle, but i wasn't against the idea of Barbara being the main comic book Batgirl again, for good or for ill, she is the most recognizable of all the versions because her expouser in other media, from a marketing perspective it was understandble and not an idea without merit. But frankly, althought i enjoy some parts of Simone run and Babsgirl, conceptually, isn't that bad, i haven't really found a story that so far, justified the change, in my opinion. I just found her current state pretty... meh and still doesn't show sings of changing, so i think that i still would be waiting for that great Batgirl Babs run.

----------


## Frontier

Anyone have a favorite first encounter/team-up between Batgirl and Catwoman?

----------


## Godlike13

> Anyone have a favorite first encounter/team-up between Batgirl and Catwoman?


The one where they get nude  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedQueen

> Have you actually read that issue?


What happen after it? I've seen this panel a lot online but I don't actually recall the issue.

----------


## RedQueen

> Anyone have a favorite first encounter/team-up between Batgirl and Catwoman?


That BoP oneshot or something like that. Thought it was fun for what it was.

----------


## Frontier

> The one where they get nude


Somehow I expected you'd say that  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> What happen after it? I've seen this panel a lot online but I don't actually recall the issue.


Basically, IIRC, Babs beat the crap out of the Joker as he continued to try and get in her head, while she continued to tell him that he didn't mean anything to her...all the while in her head, she's saying to herself that she _is_ still insecure and scared of him.

----------


## RedQueen

> Basically, IIRC, Babs beat the crap out of the Joker as he continued to try and get in her head, while she continued to tell him that he didn't mean anything to her...all the while in her head, she's saying to herself that she _is_ still insecure and scared of him.


that sounds very...undercutting when in context. But that does sound familiar. Must have been after Gail Simone's run.

----------


## Assam

> that sounds very...undercutting when in context. But that does sound familiar. Must have been after Gail Simone's run.


Tony Bedard's, yeah.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tony Bedard's, yeah.


Bedard and Tieri continually annoy me because they keep getting the follow up to much better writers.

----------


## Frontier

> Bedard and Tieri continually annoy me because they keep getting the follow up to much better writers.


They've definitely been consistent fill-ins, though sometimes I have enjoyed said fill-ins  :Wink: .

----------


## Godlike13

> Basically, IIRC, Babs beat the crap out of the Joker as he continued to try and get in her head, while she continued to tell him that he didn't mean anything to her...all the while in her head, she's saying to herself that she _is_ still insecure and scared of him.





> that sounds very...undercutting when in context. But that does sound familiar. Must have been after Gail Simone's run.


Oh, no. It's much worse then that. Babs gets one good shot in, Joker then beats her down with that potted plant and wheels her down a flight of stairs. This is something that always bothered about some of the Oracle "fans'" that popped up after they made her Batgirl again. They would recycle out of context cuts of that scene to try and argue how strong Oracle was when in actuality that full scene was probably one of the most demeaning scenes in Oracle's history.

----------


## millernumber1

> They've definitely been consistent fill-ins, though sometimes I have enjoyed said fill-ins .


The problem is, they keep coming after runs I LOVE - Batman and the Outsiders by Dixon, Birds of Prey by Dixon, Simone, and McKeever, and Catwoman by Valentine. Their stories just don't work nearly as well, which makes them stand out as inferior consistently.

----------


## Assam

> Oh, no. It's much worse then that. Babs gets one good shot in, Joker then beats her down with that potted plant and wheels her down a flight of stairs. This is something that always bothered about some of the Oracle "fans'" that popped up after they made her Batgirl again. They would recycle out of context cuts of that scene to try and argue how strong Oracle was when in actuality that full scene was probably one of the most demeaning scenes in Oracle's history.


Like I said, I agree with the panel based on what I know and love about Oracle from previous stories. I dont agree with what came after. (Sorry I got my facts wrong. It isnt an issue I revisit)

And really this isnt the first time you've done it so cut it out with putting "fans" in quotes. Its as annoying as Fergus always censoring out Tim's name.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, no. It's much worse then that. Babs gets one good shot in, Joker then beats her down with that potted plant and wheels her down a flight of stairs. This is something that always bothered about some of the Oracle "fans'" that popped up after they made her Batgirl again. They would recycle out of context cuts of that scene to try and argue how strong Oracle was when in actuality that full scene was probably one of the most demeaning scenes in Oracle's history.


Yeah. I hate that ending to Birds of Prey so much. Especially when compared to Babs being so in control of the situation with the Joker when Dixon wrote the confrontation.

----------


## Frontier

> The problem is, they keep coming after runs I LOVE - Batman and the Outsiders by Dixon, Birds of Prey by Dixon, Simone, and McKeever, and Catwoman by Valentine. Their stories just don't work nearly as well, which makes them stand out as inferior consistently.


I actually kind of preferred Tieri's _Catwoman_ run to Valentine. 

On a technical and writing-level it may not have been as strong, but it at least felt more fitting for the title/character.

----------


## millernumber1

> I actually kind of preferred Tieri's _Catwoman_ run to Valentine. 
> 
> On a technical and writing-level it may not have been as strong, but it at least felt more fitting for the title/character.


Awww. Though I'm sure you're totally right. I tend to come onto runs because of something unrelated to the character - Valentine on Catwoman was the draw for me, so I'm a terrible casual reader when it comes to Selina. Thus, it didn't feel "wrong" to me - just a fun take, well crafted.

----------


## Frontier

> Awww. Though I'm sure you're totally right. I tend to come onto runs because of something unrelated to the character - Valentine on Catwoman was the draw for me, so I'm a terrible casual reader when it comes to Selina. Thus, it didn't feel "wrong" to me - just a fun take, well crafted.


Completely fair  :Smile: .

----------


## Carabas

> Tony Bedard's, yeah.


Who was tasked with writing Oracle's breakdown in preparation to her becoming Batgirl again (which for whatever reason ended up being shelved in favour of Steph as Batgirl).
She thought more about her legs in those few issues than in the 20 or so years before that. And suddenly people started to drop dead in large numbers whenever she tried using a computer.

----------


## millernumber1

> Who was tasked with writing Oracle's breakdown in preparation to her becoming Batgirl again (which for whatever reason ended up being shelved in favour of Steph as Batgirl).
> She thought more about her legs in those few issues than in the 20 or so years before that. And suddenly people started to drop dead in large numbers whenever she tried using a computer.


I know this is a very common theory, but has anyone ever actually confirmed it?

----------


## Frontier

Y'know, I'm honestly morbidly curious to see how Barbara returning to Batgirl in Post-Crisis would've gone down.

Would Simone have still written it? Would it be different from the New 52?

----------


## Assam

> Y'know, I'm honestly morbidly curious to see how Barbara returning to Batgirl in Post-Crisis would've gone down.
> 
> Would Simone have still written it? Would it be different from the New 52?


I just wonder if the Batgirl fan-wars would be less bloody or even bloodier if Steph didn't have a hat in the ring.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> I just wonder if the Batgirl fan-wars would be less bloody or even bloodier if Steph didn't have a hat in the ring.


Honestly...maybe? 

I loved Steph as Batgirl, and she may never have gotten a chance as a solo star otherwise, but if she'd stayed Spoiler and not become Batgirl...well, it might not have complicated things to the point where DC threw her in limbo for so long like they did Cass. 

She basically re-constructed the Batgirl role in a way DC probably would've liked to have done with Babs too, which likely didn't help.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just wonder if the Batgirl fan-wars would be less bloody or even bloodier if Steph didn't have a hat in the ring.


I don't know. A world where Steph didn't get to be Batgirl would be a very different one. She would have been a continuing supporting character to Tim, likely sidelined because of Tam Fox, so my investment in her would be strong, but there wouldn't be as much of a hook for me to hang onto. The Robin and Batgirl wars don't seem to be really strongly connected, so I feel that unless Steph was a solid supporting character for Cass or Babs (whoever got the Batgirl cowl) - OR if she were given a spot on a reformed Birds of Prey, the fandom would be the same as it was during her days in Tim's title - small, but intense.




> Honestly...maybe? 
> 
> I loved Steph as Batgirl, and she may never have gotten a chance as a solo star otherwise, but if she'd stayed Spoiler and not become Batgirl...well, it might not have complicated things to the point where DC threw her in limbo for so long like they did Cass. 
> 
> She basically re-constructed the Batgirl role in a way DC probably would've liked to have done with Babs too, which likely didn't help.


I think if Steph had stayed a supporting character for Tim, there might have been a bigger chance of her not being erased completely, but given that they basically shoved Tim completely into the Teen Titans world, and almost completely excluded him from Gotham until Batman Eternal (barring guest appearances, all of which emphasize that his main life is in the Titans), there's really not much of a chance. As far as I know (not having read more than 5 n52 Teen Titans issues), none of Tim's other cast showed up from his solo titles. So she might not have been erased, but other than the persistent fan rumor (that I totally forgot to ask Tynion about) that Steph or Cass were originally supposed to fill Harper Row's spot in Batman, I don't know where they could have fit. I could see Steph fitting relatively easily into Harper's spot. Cass...I'm not sure. I think that part would have to be heavily re-tooled if Snyder had really intended to use Cass.

The fact that Steph and Burnside Babs are constantly compared (by the creative team as well) does lend support to your last point, though.

----------


## Carabas

> I know this is a very common theory, but has anyone ever actually confirmed it?


No, but it fits the evidence and there is nothing to disprove it.

There was a book titled "Oracle: The Cure" for crying out loud.

----------


## CPSparkles

Barbara Gordon

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat Family by Afterlife

----------


## CPSparkles

By sonofabat

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## Frontier

> 


Where is this from?

----------


## robert

It is from Booster Gold #5 No Joke

----------


## CPSparkles

> Where is this from?


from booster gold 005

----------


## Red obin

If oracle became batgirl again and not steph they would be little backlash as people would never have known the possibility of Steph batgirl and never the chance to read the wonderful Bryan Q Miller series. She would likely still be a supporting character in BoP, batgirl and red robin although the direction of the bat books at the time would have likely changed dramatically. The problem they have now is Steph's series achieved what they are currently trying to do to babs. Babs post new fifty two went form too dark to too light to too confusing and struggling to get an identity, whilst Steph's book achieved the balance with great reliability.

like with everything like this it would be interesting if DC realised some unused pitches, concept art etc. now it definitely won't be used again. Or even interviews.

----------


## RedQueen

> If oracle became batgirl again and not steph they would be little backlash as people would never have known the possibility of Steph batgirl and never the chance to read the wonderful Bryan Q Miller series. She would likely still be a supporting character in BoP, batgirl and red robin although the direction of the bat books at the time would have likely changed dramatically. The problem they have now is Steph's series achieved what they are currently trying to do to babs. Babs post new fifty two went form too dark to too light to too confusing and struggling to get an identity, whilst Steph's book achieved the balance with great reliability.
> 
> like with everything like this it would be interesting if DC realised some unused pitches, concept art etc. now it definitely won't be used again. Or even interviews.


I think Barbara is being experimented on too much. Barbara is pretty perfect in BTAS, Batgirl Year One and a lot of older issues. There is a baseline available for Barbara as Batgirl. 

I've been always against the view that for Barbara writers had no clear vision or had no idea what to do with the character when she's Batgirl, but past history aside she's had successful stories and adaptations. 

Barbara's current writing sucks. Barbara just needs to get back her own basics. Personally with all the stuff Babs had to face with bad writing, I think she needs a seasoned writer. I'm kind of over her being used as a starting point for people breaking into the industry. Not against anything newbies having success or anything, it's just their formulas aren't working for Babs. 

Bryan Q Miller is a good writer, but he really changed Steph for his vision of Batgirl, not it was a bad change but she became different. Same with Babs. Every writer has a different interpretation. Some work, others not so much.

----------


## Red obin

> I think Barbara is being experimented on too much. Barbara is pretty perfect in BTAS, Batgirl Year One and a lot of older issues. There is a baseline available for Barbara as Batgirl. 
> 
> I've been always against the view that for Barbara writers had no clear vision or had no idea what to do with the character when she's Batgirl, but past history aside she's had successful stories and adaptations. 
> 
> Barbara's current writing sucks. Barbara just needs to get back her own basics. Personally with all the stuff Babs had to face with bad writing, I think she needs a seasoned writer. I'm kind of over her being used as a starting point for people breaking into the industry. Not against anything newbies having success or anything, it's just their formulas aren't working for Babs. 
> 
> Bryan Q Miller is a good writer, but he really changed Steph for his vision of Batgirl, not it was a bad change but she became different. Same with Babs. Every writer has a different interpretation. Some work, others not so much.


True, I really need to read batgirl year one soon. As for BTAS i liked Barbara and thought she was well represented even if she wasn't my favourite character by far.

----------


## Frontier

I think, whatever we can say about Brian Q. Miller, his writing of Steph as Batgirl was more well-rounded and better on a technical level then most of what we've gotten with Babs over the past few years.

----------


## Red obin

> I think, whatever we can say about Brian Q. Miller, his writing of Steph as Batgirl was more well-rounded and better on a technical level then most of what we've gotten with Babs over the past few years.


Yeah, looking at it from a narrative stand point and not the characters themselves, that is definitively sacrosanct.

----------


## RedQueen

> I think, whatever we can say about Brian Q. Miller, his writing of Steph as Batgirl was more well-rounded and better on a technical level then most of what we've gotten with Babs over the past few years.


Definitely. I think it packs a punch. Great art and writing. And definitely consistent. Awesome costume too.

Babs is definitely one of the characters I see in characterization purgatory atm. She is not Barbara as Batgirl anymore for me. She's so flat. The Batgirl solo movie might make DC wake up and give a damn but until then I'm actually considering dropping the solo just out of pure annoyance (i probably won't but I'm very tempted).

----------


## millernumber1

> I think Barbara is being experimented on too much. Barbara is pretty perfect in BTAS, Batgirl Year One and a lot of older issues. There is a baseline available for Barbara as Batgirl. 
> 
> I've been always against the view that for Barbara writers had no clear vision or had no idea what to do with the character when she's Batgirl, but past history aside she's had successful stories and adaptations. 
> 
> Barbara's current writing sucks. Barbara just needs to get back her own basics. Personally with all the stuff Babs had to face with bad writing, I think she needs a seasoned writer. I'm kind of over her being used as a starting point for people breaking into the industry. Not against anything newbies having success or anything, it's just their formulas aren't working for Babs. 
> 
> Bryan Q Miller is a good writer, but he really changed Steph for his vision of Batgirl, not it was a bad change but she became different. Same with Babs. Every writer has a different interpretation. Some work, others not so much.


I think BQM did change Steph a bit, though I think a lot of it was just the kind of writer he tends (tended? I haven't watched his television episodes for about five years, so I don't know what he's currently like, though all the shows he's been on seem a lot darker) to be a bright, witty writer. I still think that the overall argument that Steph lost all of her anger and so forth is wrong on two counts - 1) Steph's anger always seemed to be more circumstantial than inherent to her character, and 2) there are several distinct instances of Steph being angry in Batgirl (with Damian, Bruce, herself, and of course, her father).

Also, Simone was a seasoned writer, and she didn't really give Batgirl any seriously good stories (of course, the artwork she was saddled with didn't help at all, either).




> True, I really need to read batgirl year one soon. As for BTAS i liked Barbara and thought she was well represented even if she wasn't my favourite character by far.


Do! Batgirl Year One is a fantastic series  in both art and writing.




> I think, whatever we can say about Brian Q. Miller, his writing of Steph as Batgirl was more well-rounded and better on a technical level then most of what we've gotten with Babs over the past few years.


Absolutely. I think the only real nits I'd pick would be the way the ending was clearly rushed by the ending of the universe. But even that worked on more levels than it didn't.




> Definitely. I think it packs a punch. Great art and writing. And definitely consistent. Awesome costume too.
> 
> Babs is definitely one of the characters I see in characterization purgatory atm. She is not Barbara as Batgirl anymore for me. She's so flat. The Batgirl solo movie might make DC wake up and give a damn but until then I'm actually considering dropping the solo just out of pure annoyance (i probably won't but I'm very tempted).


Agreed. BQM constructed a solid, thoughtful, emotionally effective, and exciting narrative. I thought about adding Batgirl to my pull list, but Larson has really not impressed me at all. I mean, okay, she's impressed me more than Stewart and Fletcher, but that's a really, really low bar.

----------


## Frontier

I've been enjoying the current arc with Larson, but it's also convinced me I would probably enjoy her more on a teen Batgirl book  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## RedQueen

> I've been enjoying the current arc with Larson, but it's also convinced me I would probably enjoy her more on a teen Batgirl book .


That's pretty much where the disconnect happens for me. The story and writing is serviceable but it's not serviceable for what I want for Barbara's character. 

I mean the teens in the Deathstroke solo have way more depth in characterization than Babs right now.

----------


## sorboares

> Definitely. I think it packs a punch. Great art and writing. And definitely consistent. Awesome costume too.
> 
> Babs is definitely one of the characters I see in characterization purgatory atm. She is not Barbara as Batgirl anymore for me. She's so flat. The Batgirl solo movie might make DC wake up and give a damn but until then I'm actually considering dropping the solo just out of pure annoyance (i probably won't but I'm very tempted).



I know what u mean... Batgirl needs a soft reboot again.  Needs a new costume more like her Gail Simone new 52 run.  More adult stories,  still can be fun but not so boring n childish.  Barbara needs to be taken seriously again!

----------


## Frontier

_Justice League Action_ Batgirl:

----------


## MajorHoy

> _Justice League Action_ Batgirl:


Since I'm not part of toonzone, I'm not seeing a picture.

----------


## Frontier

> Since I'm not part of toonzone, I'm not seeing a picture.


How about now?

----------


## millernumber1

> I know what u mean... Batgirl needs a soft reboot again.  Needs a new costume more like her Gail Simone new 52 run.  More adult stories,  still can be fun but not so boring n childish.  Barbara needs to be taken seriously again!


What I want is something like Batgirl: Year One. Something really well crafted, showing Babs as fun, but brilliant and competent. Right now, both the Batgirl series are not well crafted, and while Birds of Prey is fun, it's too slapdash. Larson's just doing slice of life with mandatory superheroics.

----------


## Frontier

> *What I want is something like Batgirl: Year One. Something really well crafted, showing Babs as fun, but brilliant and competent*. Right now, both the Batgirl series are not well crafted, and while Birds of Prey is fun, it's too slapdash. Larson's just doing slice of life with mandatory superheroics.


Honestly it kind of saddens me that people are starting to think this wasn't the norm for Barbara as Batgirl pre-reboot.

Not that I'm a "Barbara Gordon as Batgirl absolutist" or anything, but I think there was more to her in that identity then modern writers have been able to capture in the comics for a while now.

----------


## Confuzzled

> _Justice League Action_ Batgirl:


Love it. Which episode is she going to debut in?

----------


## Frontier

> Love it. Which episode is she going to debut in?


I don't think she's in any episodes actually (or webisodes), not even as a cameo. 

I think Shane Glines (the character designer) did a lot of conceptual designs for characters even if they never actually appeared on the show. I know there are a few characters with designs (such as Reverse-Flash or Captain Cold) that never actually made full appearances.

----------


## Assam

> Honestly it kind of saddens me that people are starting to think this wasn't the norm for Barbara as Batgirl pre-reboot.
> 
> Not that I'm a "Barbara Gordon as Batgirl absolutist" or anything, but I think there was more to her in that identity then modern writers have been able to capture in the comics for a while now.


Eh. While Miller's description is mostly accurate in general for Babsgirl's Pre-FP appearances, I would say that Year One is the only time that it was "well crafted", that being the only Babsgirl story ever that ranks as above average IMO.

----------


## Frontier

> Eh. While Miller's description is mostly accurate in general for Babsgirl's Pre-FP appearances, I would agree that Year One is the only time that it was "well crafted", that being the only Babsgirl story ever that ranks as above average.


Well, I've enjoyed quite a few Barbara Gordon Batgirl stories (both comics and in animation) so I'll just politely disagree  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> Well, I've enjoyed quite a few Barbara Gordon Batgirl stories (both comics and in animation) so I'll just politely disagree .


You responded before I edited in the "IMO", but I guess that's always implied anyway.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> You responded before I edited in the "IMO", but I guess that's always implied anyway.


(Thumbs Up)  :Smile: .

----------


## atomicbattery

> Love it. Which episode is she going to debut in?


Shane Glines (Justice League Action character designer) responded to that question in the comments section to his Batgirl design post on Facebook. He said that Batgirl hasn’t appeared in an episode yet, and that this was done for a McDonald’s or Burger King promotion. I’m holding out hope that she’ll appear based on his use of the word ‘yet’.
Also worth noting that Paul Dini wrote ‘Love it!’ in the comments.

----------


## RedQueen

The design is cute. But I wish they would embrace giving Babs a longer cape. In BTAS it just hung there.




> Shane Glines (Justice League Action character designer) responded to that question in the comments section to his Batgirl design post on Facebook. He said that Batgirl hasn’t appeared in an episode yet, and that this was done for a McDonald’s or Burger King promotion. I’m holding out hope that she’ll appear based on his use of the word ‘yet’.
> Also worth noting that Paul Dini wrote ‘Love it!’ in the comments.


I wonder if she'll be a take away toy then.

----------


## Frontier

> Shane Glines (Justice League Action character designer) responded to that question in the comments section to his Batgirl design post on Facebook. He said that Batgirl hasn’t appeared in an episode yet, and that this was done for a McDonald’s or Burger King promotion. I’m holding out hope that she’ll appear based on his use of the word ‘yet’.
> Also worth noting that Paul Dini wrote ‘Love it!’ in the comments.


That probably depends a lot on a _Justice League Action_ continuation since it doesn't seem like CN will renew the show, unfortunately. 



> The design is cute. But I wish they would embrace giving Babs a longer cape. In BTAS it just hung there.


I think the small cape is cute, but that's just me. 

Supergirl's cape is also generally a lot shorter then Superman's I believe, with some exceptions.

----------


## Caivu

Grant Morrison settles the debate:

f65e838.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Grant Morrison settles the debate:
> 
> f65e838.jpg


Hey, Babs has plenty of issues too  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

1. The existence of Mar'i makes me prefer Dick/Kory. 
2. Babs/Ted for life.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> Hey, Babs has plenty of issues too*.


Yeah, that's a requirement to be a member of the batfamily.

----------


## Frontier

> 1. The existence of Mar'i makes me prefer Dick/Kory. 
> 2. Babs/Ted for life.


I thought you were mentioning Mari McCabe for a second there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

a secret project..

https://www.newsarama.com/38454-batg...c-project.html

----------


## RedQueen

> a secret project..
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/38454-batg...c-project.html


Damn. One of the highlights of the title is his art. I'm glad he'll still be making content but this for me this is a loss because he elevates the title from being just another underselling 20k solo. I know a few people who are still reading it because of him.

I hope they don't become a situation where it's revolving door of artists though.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Maybe they will give the book to Sami Basri.  He would be an excellent replacement.

----------


## atomicbattery

> Maybe they will give the book to Sami Basri.  He would be an excellent replacement.


Agree! Sami Basri’s art in the Batgirl/Harley Xmas issue was gorgeous!

----------


## Godlike13

Ouch. Wildgoose did good work, but good for him. Makes sense honestly.

----------


## RedQueen

> Agree! Sami Basris art in the Batgirl/Harley Xmas issue was gorgeous!


Ok that lessons the blow. I did enjoy his art in that issue.

----------


## Caivu

Commission(?) WIP by Marc Laming:

IMG_20180209_001357.jpg

----------


## RedQueen

> “At some point and I don’t want to get into what Volume 3 is about, but at some point of course we’re going to get The Joker. We have to do that! And we have big plans for Batgirl. We actually even talked about the potential of of maybe Batgirl getting her own graphic novel. […]Batgirl Earth One would be a lot of fun.”


There was definitely set up for Babs in V1 regarding that Batgirl drawing. I'd been super keen on different take on Babs.

----------


## Godlike13

Ohh, the ever fabled other earth Batgirl books.

----------


## Frontier

Wasn't Geoff Johns tapped for an "All Star Batgirl" book back when those were a thing? 



> Commission(?) WIP by Marc Laming:
> 
> IMG_20180209_001357.jpg


I feel like the beaten and bloody look kind of clashes with the costume.

----------


## Caivu

> I feel like the beaten and bloody look kind of clashes with the costume.


Hey, bruises are purple.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Hey, bruises are purple.


I meant more seeing Batgirl beaten and bloody in her hipster millennial cosplay costume  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## RedQueen

> Wasn't Geoff Johns tapped for an "All Star Batgirl" book back when those were a thing?


Yeah I've seen a quote about that for a few years. It just never came to fruition or something. But it's cool Geoff Johns has shown interest in her. He could do for her what he did for Aquaman and GL. Also I wouldn't be surprised if Batgirl Earth One will become a thing when her movie gets buzz.

----------


## Caivu

The finished commission from earlier:

IMG_20180211_133624.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

> I meant more seeing Batgirl beaten and bloody in her hipster millennial cosplay costume .


Its econimical
we cant all be billionares

----------


## Frontier

> Its econimical
> we cant all be billionares


Even when we have access to said billionaire's resources  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Caivu

Joss Whedon exits Batgirl film.

----------


## Assam

> Joss Whedon exits Batgirl film.


Huzzah! Here's hoping they get James Gunn to replace him.

----------


## Frontier

> Joss Whedon exits Batgirl film.


I was expecting this for a variety of reasons, but probably for the best. 



> Huzzah! Here's hoping they get James Gunn to replace him.


Eh...Gunn wouldn't be one of my top picks.

Unless you want them to turn Babs' movie into a full-on comedy  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Assam

> Eh...Gunn wouldn't be one of my top picks.
> 
> Unless you want them to turn Babs' movie into a full-on comedy ?


If Gunn was in charge, it wouldn't just be Babs' movie.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Also, despite being mostly a comedy, Gunn came much closer to making me cry with Guardians 2 than most directors can.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Huzzah! Here's hoping they get James Gunn to replace him.


It's DOA. No one is replacing Whedon.  It was only going to be made because Whedon wanted to do it.

----------


## Frontier

> If Gunn was in charge, it wouldn't just be Babs' movie.


I don't think he'd do well with Cass or Babs. Maybe Steph. 

I didn't really care for his revamps of the female Guardians in his movie, except for maybe Nebula.



> Also, despite being mostly a comedy, Gunn came much closer to making me cry with Guardians 2 than most directors can.


I think Gunn is definitely good for the poignant emotional moments, it's just everything else about his work that makes me think he'd be ill-suited for a Bat-family film.

----------


## Assam

> It's DOA. No one is replacing Whedon.  It was only going to be made because Whedon wanted to do it.


Perhaps. 

Still, getting nothing is better than what we were told we were getting.

----------


## Frontier

> Perhaps. 
> 
> Still, getting nothing is better than what we were told we were getting.


Which wasn't much to begin with  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> I don't think he'd do well with Cass or Babs. Maybe Steph.


We know he'd want to do a Cassgirl movie and that, along with being a large fan of his work, puts him above most other directors in my mind. _Super_ makes me feel confidence that he can also do darker work well. 




> I didn't really care for his revamps of the female Guardians in his movie, except for maybe Nebula.


'Has Read Barely Any Guardians Comics'.

----------


## Frontier

> We know he'd want to do a Cassgirl movie and that, along with being a large fan of his work, puts him above most other directors in my mind. _Super_ makes me feel confidence that he can also do darker work well.


That's great that he's a Cass fan, but I'm not sure if he'd be able to convey her well, especially since he seems to struggle with action scenes that aren't heavily reliant on CGI. 

I feel like Mantis is a close approximation of Cass, if in role if not personality, and he really screwed her up in the movies. 



> 'Has Read Barely Any Guardians Comics'.


Well, I'm just bringing my perspective into this  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> and he really screwed her up in the movies. 
> 
> Well, I'm just bringing my perspective into this .


What's Mantis like in the comics?

----------


## Frontier

> What's Mantis like in the comics?


She started off as a very arrogant member of The Avengers because of her divine heritage but eventually grew into a very pensive and balanced member of the Guardians. 

She's also one of the greatest fighters of the Marvel Universe, and once toppled Thor.

----------


## Assam

> She started off as a very arrogant member of The Avengers because of her divine heritage but eventually grew into a very pensive and balanced member of the Guardians. 
> 
> She's also one of the greatest fighters of the Marvel Universe, and once toppled Thor.


Well...f**k.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Badou

Looks like DC is clearing house a bit and everything is on hold until they get their Batman situation figured out. I think the Nightwing director is moving on to another project too and the Nightwing movie is still way, way off if it ever happens.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Name that just came to me, what about Rob Thomas? 

I feel like Veronica Mars is very close to the kind of tone I would want for a Babsgirl movie.

----------


## Rac7d*

this would be a good film, to introduce the real Barbra, Alicia Silverstone, is more of a cass
it would also be opertune time to fix batman and joker and introduce nightwing

I  hope they use ivy as the villain, just  so they can have her ready for  GCS

----------


## Frontier

> Name that just came to me, what about Rob Thomas? 
> 
> I feel like Veronica Mars is very close to the kind of tone I would want for a Babsgirl movie.


I could see it.

----------


## Caivu

There has been a development:

IMG_20180222_203114.jpg

Michele Wells is, to my understanding, VP of Warner Bros. So this could have legs.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There has been a development:
> 
> Attachment 62485
> 
> Michele Wells is, to my understanding, VP of Warner Bros. So this could have legs.


and roxana gay ?

----------


## Caivu

> and roxana gay ?


Author. Recently wrote World of Wakanda and has written some novels and other books.

----------


## Barbatos666

What does Gay have anything to do here?

----------


## Caivu

> What does Gay have anything to do here?


She's a writer, offering to write a script...

----------


## Barbatos666

Oh ok then.

----------


## Frontier

> There has been a development:
> 
> Attachment 62485
> 
> Michele Wells is, to my understanding, VP of Warner Bros. So this could have legs.


Huh. 

Well, I recall that Roxane Gay is a notable writer but her last foray into the Big Two (_World of Wakanda_) didn't leave me hoping for more.

----------


## Kurisu

Give Angela Robinson the job. She's already written and directed the best Wonder Woman film.

----------


## Barbatos666

A) I dont think this film is happening, Whedon's excuse is hilarious. Wouldn't be surprised if this was a smoke screen for his coming on board for JL.
B)  If it does happen it'll likely be after Batman as it should be.

----------


## RedQueen

A few days ago the report about Batgirl being a priority along with Flashpoint makes me think it is definitely happening. Nightwing isn't happening anytime soon.

These stories broke within days of each other so I just think Batgirl is happening but with a different vision. Geoff has talked about them being keen on the property ages ago. So I think they were waiting for Whedon to bring something to the table, but now I think they're gonna power through with something.



Doing Nightwing or another Robin would mean they'd have to establish a heck of a lot and they're currently in Batman limbo cause of Affleck. Barbara would be easier to adapt. Plus they've already introduced Commissioner so half that work is done. People give a heck of a lot of damn about Gordon so you've got an emotional investment in Babs cause of their relationship. Plus you can keep her story isolated without the establishing of the robin baggage because it's not a necessity, you could just hint at it and fill the void later.

----------


## Caivu

I know I'm posting this a lot, but it does feature a ton of characters...
Anyway, Dustin Ngyuen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I know I'm posting this a lot, but it does feature a ton of characters...
> Anyway, Dustin Ngyuen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:
> 
> dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg


I love it. It's like a snapshot of 2011 continuity, and is wonderful.

----------


## KurtW95

> There has been a development:
> 
> Attachment 62485
> 
> Michele Wells is, to my understanding, VP of Warner Bros. So this could have legs.


The film division of DC has had its issues, but if this happens Ill be convinced theyre suicidal.

----------


## Caivu

> The film division of DC has had its issues, but if this happens I’ll be convinced they’re suicidal.


Uh, why?  :Confused:

----------


## Rac7d*

> The film division of DC has had its issues, but if this happens I’ll be convinced they’re suicidal.


why would anyone be against a batgirl film

----------


## KurtW95

> Uh, why?





> why would anyone be against a batgirl film


I’m talking about the writer. Horrible.

----------


## Caivu

> I’m talking about the writer. Horrible.


Not really, no.

----------


## KurtW95

> Not really, no.


World of Wakanda was a terribly written trainwreck that was cancelled at six issues. And that’s literally the only thing she’s done in superhero comics.

----------


## Caivu

> World of Wakanda was a terribly written trainwreck that was cancelled at six issues. And that’s literally the only thing she’s done in superhero comics.


I'm not going to say it was the best thing ever, but it wasn't _that_ bad, geez.

----------


## KurtW95

> I'm not going to say it was the best thing ever, but it wasn't _that_ bad, geez.


Both that and Black Panther and the Crew were garbage (the latter being weirdly racist) that were only greenlit because Ta-Nehisi Coates wanted jobs for his friends.

----------


## Caivu

> Both that and Black Panther and the Crew were garbage (the latter being weirdly racist) that were only greenlit because Ta-Nehisi Coates wanted jobs for his friends.


Again, they weren't that bad. And that's... uh, some theory.

----------


## KurtW95

> Again, they weren't that bad.


Agree to disagree.

----------


## Frontier

Well, maybe Ms. Gay can write a better film script then she can a comic book, or maybe she'd be a better fit for Batgirl then she was on a short-lived _Black Panther_ satellite book.  



> I know I'm posting this a lot, but it does feature a ton of characters...
> Anyway, Dustin Ngyuen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:
> 
> Attachment 62501


That's awesome. Lot of love for Lil' Gotham and looking forward to the upcoming return for the DC Zoom book  :Smile: .

----------


## Caivu

Gail's on board, if asked:

Screenshot_20180223-183000.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

So, I'm excited about Babs in the upcoming issue of Tec. I think Tynion could write a really solid Babs, since he tends to have more respect for her history than just the Burnside era.

----------


## Assam

> So, I'm excited about Babs in the upcoming issue of Tec. I think Tynion could write a really solid Babs, since he tends to have more respect for her history than just the Burnside era.


https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...41265151500290

This is either going to be the most exciting thing to happen in 'Tec in many months or the biggest let down.

----------


## Caivu

> So, I'm excited about Babs in the upcoming issue of Tec. I think Tynion could write a really solid Babs, since he tends to have more respect for her history than just the Burnside era.


I know he has said he's wanted to do a "cop mentality vs soldier mentality" compare-and-contrast sort of story with both Babs and Kate, and this seems like the perfect time to do that.

----------


## Godlike13

We saw Tynion's Babs, it sucked. Characters like Babs and Dick need to be kept the hell away from Tynion. They're just fodder to him.

----------


## Frontier

> Gail's on board, if asked:
> 
> Screenshot_20180223-183000.jpg


It would be kind of interesting what approach she would take since it was said Whedon would be adapting the New 52 run. 



> So, I'm excited about Babs in the upcoming issue of Tec. I think Tynion could write a really solid Babs, since he tends to have more respect for her history than just the Burnside era.


I definitely think Tynion would write a Barbara that is more mature and fully-fledged in her identity and role in the family then we've been getting for a while. 



> We saw Tynion's Babs, it sucked. Characters like Babs and Dick need to be kept the hell away from Tynion. They're just fodder to him.


I know you're thinking of the Eternals, but is there anything from that with Babs that Tynion had any direct involvement in?

----------


## Caivu

> I know you're thinking of the Eternals, but is there anything from that with Babs that Tynion had any direct involvement in?


He's said she's the only Batfamily member he's not written extensively, so probably not. Maybe. I dunno.

----------


## Frontier

Well, I'm already not looking forward to all the Robins being together (because that hardly ever ends well) but maybe Batgirl will be a bright spot there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Gail's on board, if asked:
> 
> Attachment 62558


isnt she the one who killed catwoman run

----------


## Caivu

> isnt she the one who killed catwoman run


????

Gail has never been involved with a Catwoman solo that I know of. Offhand, I can only think of a handful of times she's even written her.

----------


## Rac7d*

> ????
> 
> Gail has never been involved with a Catwoman solo that I know of. Offhand, I can only think of a handful of times she's even written her.


I confused her with Ann

----------


## OBrianTallent

Not that I expect it to happen, but before we get a Batgirl movie off and running, can we at least get her series running?  It's just kind of limping around it seems.  I know some didn't care for the initial six issues of the Rebirth run, but I actually enjoyed it more than anything else that's come along.  It took Barbara out of Gotham and gave her a larger world view.  It's fine to have a home base, I'm even fine with it being Burnside...but I would really like to see Batgirl exist more in the DC world.  Even Robin get's to traipse around the globe occasionally.  And I would definitely like to see stories with greater impact than who she is going to date this month.  
We can have a solid book that appeals to girls, guys and younger girls even as long as it is well written and drawn.  I'm tired of being bored with Batgirl...

----------


## Frontier

I'm still waiting for the day she gets a new costume...

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm still waiting for the day she gets a new costume...


why she only had the burnside one for a few years

----------


## Frontier

> why she only had the burnside one for a few years


And I am pretty much done with her hipster millennial cosplay outfit  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...41265151500290
> 
> This is either going to be the most exciting thing to happen in 'Tec in many months or the biggest let down.


I know I'm really salty about the way Steph is being treated right now, but I have good thoughts for this issue...




> I know he has said he's wanted to do a "cop mentality vs soldier mentality" compare-and-contrast sort of story with both Babs and Kate, and this seems like the perfect time to do that.


I don't know that he thinks of Batman as a cop - but I think you're probably right that his thinking going into this will be colored in that direction.




> We saw Tynion's Babs, it sucked. Characters like Babs and Dick need to be kept the hell away from Tynion. They're just fodder to him.


I mean, I guess if you don't like Jason/Babs, it was bad.  :Wink:  And I think it's really not true that Tynion thinks of any character as fodder.




> It would be kind of interesting what approach she would take since it was said Whedon would be adapting the New 52 run. 
> 
> I definitely think Tynion would write a Barbara that is more mature and fully-fledged in her identity and role in the family then we've been getting for a while. 
> 
> I know you're thinking of the Eternals, but is there anything from that with Babs that Tynion had any direct involvement in?


Oh, I'm definitely thinking he's going to treat her much more like Oracle, based on how she was in Eternal. As I say below, he didn't do the majority of writing on her arc in Eternal, but he was head writer, so I think he guided characterization.




> He's said she's the only Batfamily member he's not written extensively, so probably not. Maybe. I dunno.


Yeah, Tim Seeley wrote most of the Babs significant stuff in Batman Eternal (the Jason/Babs stuff particularly), but Tynion did several issues featuring her. But that was a weird spot - just as she was transitioning into Burnside.




> Well, I'm already not looking forward to all the Robins being together (because that hardly ever ends well) but maybe Batgirl will be a bright spot there.


Well, despite my very real frustration, anger, and sadness with the way Steph's arc has collapsed into a burning heap, I still think Tynion is a really good writer, and I think especially for an anniversary issue, it's going to be gold. I look at 950, and I think that's the level of care he's going to put into this.




> And I am pretty much done with her hipster millennial cosplay outfit.


That's because you haven't seen Alvaro Martinez draw it yet...  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

> I don't know that he thinks of Batman as a cop - but I think you're probably right that his thinking going into this will be colored in that direction.


Oh, I was meaning _Barbara_ as the cop; she's definitely got a good understanding of that life.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, I was meaning _Barbara_ as the cop; she's definitely got a good understanding of that life.


Oooooooh! That does make sense, with her dad...

----------


## Frontier

I think Barbara's stance on killing would probably be pretty complicated. 

I mean, she grew up around the police and understands their procedure and what they have to do in the line of duty, but the two biggest mentors in her life was one person who is absolutely against killing (Batman) and another who probably understands the need for lethal force but always does his utmost to avoid it and supports the Batfamily because they don't kill (Gordon). 



> Oh, I'm definitely thinking he's going to treat her much more like Oracle, based on how she was in Eternal. As I say below, he didn't do the majority of writing on her arc in Eternal, but he was head writer, so I think he guided characterization.


I'm not sure if he'll treat her like Oracle per se, but he will probably write a more mature and experienced Babs, and her interaction with Cass will probably have shades of their dynamic when Babs was Oracle. 



> Well, despite my very real frustration, anger, and sadness with the way Steph's arc has collapsed into a burning heap, I still think Tynion is a really good writer, and I think especially for an anniversary issue, it's going to be gold. I look at 950, and I think that's the level of care he's going to put into this.


Here's hoping  :Smile: .



> That's because you haven't seen Alvaro Martinez draw it yet...


Well, if he can make it not seem like a cosplay outfit  :Wink: ...

----------


## Assam

> I know I'm really salty about the way Steph is being treated right now, but I have good thoughts for this issue...


In addition to trying to enjoy the issue, I'm also gonna be keeping my eyes open for potential foreshadowing to support my delusions that March 19th isn't going to royally suck.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I look at 950, and I think that's the level of care he's going to put into this.


Still easily the best issue of this run.

----------


## Caivu

> I think Barbara's stance on killing would probably be pretty complicated. 
> 
> I mean, she grew up around the police and understands their procedure and what they have to do in the line of duty, but the two biggest mentors in her life was one person who is absolutely against killing (Batman) and another who probably understands the need for lethal force but always does his utmost to avoid it and supports the Batfamily because they don't kill (Gordon).


That's pretty much what I was thinking.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, if he can make it not seem like a cosplay outfit ...


I have hope!




> In addition to trying to enjoy the issue, I'm also gonna be keeping my eyes open for potential foreshadowing to support my delusions that March 19th isn't going to royally suck. 
> 
> Still easily the best issue of this run.


Not quite as good as Batman and Robin Eternal #13, but really excellent stuff. No coincidence about the art, too!

As for March 19th...yeah. I'm with you in hoping. But at this point, I'm just settling in to enjoy what I can get to the fullest, and it'll be like the summer of 2011. It's only the end if we want it to be.

----------


## Caivu

Then pitch WB!

Screenshot_20180224-095302.jpg

----------


## Katana500

Barbara was pretty awesome in the newest Detective Comics Issue!

----------


## RedQueen

> Barbara was pretty awesome in the newest Detective Comics Issue!


Haven't seen Barbara like that in a while. Pretty awesome to see her commanding most of the issue. Makes me wish she wasn't cut off from the Batfam so she can share scenes with them again.

----------


## Miles To Go

> Barbara was pretty awesome in the newest Detective Comics Issue!


I agree, very good, and she even got to have some cute banter with Dick.

----------


## RedBird

> Barbara was pretty awesome in the newest Detective Comics Issue!


Seeing her as a valuable voice of reason within the family once again was great, I haven't been this happy with a 'Babs moment' in years. At least, not within the canon dc line.

----------


## RedQueen

> Seeing her as a valuable voice of reason within the family once again was great, I haven't been this happy with a 'Babs moment' in years. At least, not within the canon dc line.


Pretty much. Feels like there's been a lull in scenes which could be labeled "best of" for Babs. Seeing this issue compared to how she currently is just makes me more aware on how she's backsliding as character.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Barbara was pretty awesome in the newest Detective Comics Issue!


Its the best she's been in years. If she would continue to act like this maybe Bats will invite her back to the family.

----------


## Blue22

> Its the best she's been in years. If she would continue to act like this maybe Bats will invite her back to the family.


I don't know. After the way she tore into him, I'd be shocked if she ever gets an invitation from him to anything ever again xD

Then again, Bats has never been the petty type....at least not that petty.....most of the time.

----------


## Godlike13

Tearing into Batman is apparently what the Bat family is around to do. Babs was soild calling out this poor portrayal of Batman's bs, but that stuff is getting rather old. Hell when was the last time Babs had a conversation with Bruce and she wasn't chewing him out for something.

----------


## Frontier

> Tearing into Batman is apparently what the Bat family is around to do. Babs was soild calling out this poor portrayal of Batman's bs, but that stuff is getting rather old. Hell when was the last time Babs had a conversation with Bruce and she wasn't chewing him out for something.


I'm honestly trying to remember the last time they interacted without any tension or aggression involved. 

Kind of can't think of anything, to be honest.

----------


## sorboares

I just want Barbara Gordon to be a more mature and stronger Batgirl! 
We need a new awesome more serious costume for her because the Burnside costume is too amateur and childish.
The latest issue of Batgirl issue 20 I mist admit the new artist is impressive such a huge improvement especially compared to Babs Tarr in the begining. 
I was happy on the final page that Barbara said I don't want to be a child anymore. 
Hopefully this is a sign of more mature things to come for Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. 
Was also so happy to see Barbara put Bruce in his spot in Detective comics. That's Barbara!

----------


## RedQueen

> Hopefully this is a sign of more mature things to come for Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. 
> Was also so happy to see Barbara put Bruce in his spot in Detective comics. That's Barbara!



I agree about the end of the issue. But also her narrative lacks good story telling. I'd be super happy if they commit to Babs being Babs again, but story wise I'm in doubt because they've advertised that character Kai again, who was so forgettable in the first rebirth arc that I wonder if the story telling will match up to the promise. I mean my problem is Babs' lack of character, and the story telling has been pretty bland so sometimes one can save the other but I really hope they can get Batgirl back into gear again. But the Batgirl writer isn't a horrible writer, she just doesn't have solid grasp or interpretation of barbara that I'm fond of.

If anything that Tec issue is a painful reminder of what Babs isn't anymore and I've seen people praise the issue for bringing back Barbara Gordon, but I don't see that happening with the current writer, who didn't even bother to fact check if Alysia even knew Babs was Batgirl. Like I'm frustrated as a Babs fan about that, especially since Alysia is now treated as diversity wallpaper.

----------


## Frontier

I'm kind of bummed that the moment people are jumping on as Barbara finally feeling Barbara is her telling Bruce off (not that she's the only one in that book).

Not that I don't understand where that point comes across from, but I just wish those two had a closer and more positive relationship then they have now  :Frown: .

----------


## RedQueen

> I'm kind of bummed that the moment people are jumping on as Barbara finally feeling Barbara is her telling Bruce off (not that she's the only one in that book).
> 
> Not that I don't understand where that point comes across from, but I just wish those two had a closer and more positive relationship then they have now .


I kind of viewed her speech was because she knew him. I thought the mention of his mother is where she lost me a bit. 

But yeah I love when Babs and Bruce get to show their relationship especially since it's so untapped as of late. We've seen a bit on how Babs views Bruce but not how Bruce feels about Barb. I still get cut when there's a reunion and it's only Bruce and the robins. Snyder did that loads and I was always miffed about it.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Haven't seen Barbara like that in a while. Pretty awesome to see her commanding most of the issue. Makes me wish she wasn't cut off from the Batfam so she can share scenes with them again.





> I'm kind of bummed that the moment people are jumping on as Barbara finally feeling Barbara is her telling Bruce off (not that she's the only one in that book).
> 
> Not that I don't understand where that point comes across from, but I just wish those two had a closer and more positive relationship then they have now .





> I kind of viewed her speech was because she knew him. I thought the mention of his mother is where she lost me a bit. 
> 
> But yeah I love when Babs and Bruce get to show their relationship especially since it's so untapped as of late. We've seen a bit on how Babs views Bruce but not how Bruce feels about Barb. I still get cut when there's a reunion and it's only Bruce and the robins. Snyder did that loads and I was always miffed about it.


I'm enjoying Larson's _Batgirl_ title. It may not be exactly how I remember/necessarily want Babs, but I'm so dissatisfied with the way the rest of the Bat-family has been handled since _Rebirth_ (and even a little earlier) that I have to find whatever Bat-title I can that makes me somewhat happy. I really was annoyed/bummed when so many potentially good _Detective Comics_ runs during the _Nu52_ either just ended or got derailed. And even though I enjoyed Greg Capullo's art on the _Nu52 Batman_ book, Snyder's annoying writing style constantly de-railed my enjoyment.

----------


## Daniel22

> I'm kind of bummed that the moment people are jumping on as Barbara finally feeling Barbara is her telling Bruce off (not that she's the only one in that book).
> 
> Not that I don't understand where that point comes across from, but I just wish those two had a closer and more positive relationship then they have now .


I agree. I'd rather not see "telling Batman off" as a defining characteristic of Barbara. I'm all for her standing up to him, and being respected by him so that her voice carries weight. I just prefer it to be seen as coming from a trusted friend and unquestioned ally, as though they are all on the same team and want the same things. I prefer the whole Bat-Family operates under those general conditions, actually.

----------


## Restingvoice

So what's the defining characteristic for Barbara?

----------


## Godlike13

Brain over brawn.

----------


## Daniel22

> So what's the defining characteristic for Barbara?


That's a great question, one I'd really have to think about. I agree with Godlike that brains over brawn is a key part. I'd say overcoming physical barriers and not letting a disability define her has historically been one of her most important characteristics. I though healing her removed some of her most important and interesting defining characteristics.

----------


## Godlike13

There’s many ways to adapt perseverance and will though. The chair shouldn’t define Babs.

----------


## Daniel22

> There’s many ways to adapt perseverance and will though. The chair shouldn’t define Babs.


I can understand that viewpoint. What I liked about her is that the chair DIDN'T define her, even when she was in it. I agree that she can and has shown perseverance and will both before and after the chair, but I thought her living with and adapting to her disability made her more of a unique character in the DC universe.

----------


## Godlike13

If the chair truly didn't define her then it shouldn't matter if she is in the chair or not. Healing her shouldn't remove her most important and interesting defining characteristics.

----------


## Daniel22

> If the chair truly didn't define her then it shouldn't matter if she is in the chair or not. Healing her shouldn't remove her most important and interesting defining characteristics.


I don't think it removed those characteristics, but I do think it changed, arguably for the worse, the ways in which those characteristics could manifest and be shown.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I don't think it removed those characteristics, but I do think it changed, arguably for the worse, the ways in which those characteristics could manifest and be shown.


It wasn't whether she was still in the chair or not that was the biggest problem with the _New52_+ version of Barbara: it was the severe de-aging of the character and removing her years of experience. It was the decision to bring her down to Dick's age/level more like it was in the animated series instead of her being several years older than Dick as she previously had been in the decades of comic book stories.

----------


## Godlike13

Its wasn't just experience, they took capabilities away too. Im still waiting for them to upgrade Batgirl and really tech her out so that she can better incorporate, and modernize, her abilities as Oracle. At the same time though i see Tim and Steph's "hacking" moments and i cringe. So i don't want to see that kind of magic button crap either though.

----------


## Daniel22

> It wasn't whether she was still in the chair or not that was the biggest problem with the _New52_+ version of Barbara: it was the severe de-aging of the character and removing her years of experience. It was the decision to bring her down to Dick's age/level more like it was in the animated series instead of her being several years older than Dick as she previously had been in the decades of comic book stories.


I think healing her was a bigger problem for me, but I agree that de-aging her (and more importantly taking away all that experience and expertise) was also a poor decision. It brought her onto more even footing with the other Bat Family members, and I prefer her as the older, wiser, more experienced and capable member of the Family. Having the super compressed timeline of the New 52 didn't do any members of the Bat Family any favors either imo.

----------


## Frontier

> So what's the defining characteristic for Barbara?


Her intelligence. Her grit. Her ability to persevere against difficult odds. 



> Its wasn't just experience, they took capabilities away too. Im still waiting for them to upgrade Batgirl and really tech her out so that she can better incorporate, and modernize, her abilities as Oracle. At the same time though i see Tim and Steph's "hacking" moments and i cringe. So i don't want to see that kind of magic button crap either though.


we've even gotten this in adaptions. Just look at the _Arkham_ games or _DC Super Hero Girls._

----------


## RedQueen

Everyone is a instahacker nowadays so for Babs not the tech aspect nowadays but really for me is the intellectual. I also wouldn't call her the matriarch nowadays for the Batfam, but I think she brings a certain amount of wisdom. Yeah and one of my biggest issues in the deaging, like if they reduced it then fine, but 21 is still super young for the all the implied history she's got, they could have gone with 25 which was her original age back in the day and that could suffice on the history front.

And yeah I agree about the perseverance. She's definitely hella determined. I think Tynion described her as Hermione level smart and focus on twitter once upon a time and I agree about that.

The costume nowadays can make her look a little "under dressed" when she's with the batfam but her costume can still look over complicated if that makes sense? but I like the look she has in White Knight because it's got the same elements but way more simplified. A little more streamlined look would really visually benefit the character because I think the suit worked best under Babs Tarr pen, and not everyone can make it look as swish.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . The costume nowadays can make her look a little "under dressed" when she's with the batfam but her costume can still look over complicated if that makes sense? but I like the look she has in White Knight because it's got the same elements but way more simplified. A little more streamlined look would really visually benefit the character because I think the suit worked best under Babs Tarr pen, and not everyone can make it look as swish.


I sometimes wonder if the design of the "Burnside" costume was inspired in part by her original costume change from the 1960s:

----------


## Caivu

By Stephen Byrne:

IMG_20180404_010843.jpg

----------


## kjn

> So what's the defining characteristic for Barbara?


Joy.

In a way, I think that's what makes the Oracle transformation so powerful. It was about reclaiming something that was taken from her.

----------


## RedQueen

> By Stephen Byrne:
> 
> Attachment 64171


That's gorgeous. Hope he gets to do some batfam stuff in the future.

----------


## Frontier

> By Stephen Byrne:
> 
> Attachment 64171


Beautiful piece, but she so sticks out like a sore thumb in that costume  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## sorboares

> Beautiful piece, but she so sticks out like a sore thumb in that costume .



Totally agree she sticks out like a sore thumb in that costume.  It's time DC give Barbara Gordon an updated more mature costume or at least the colour to Black because that purple and yellow is just too bright and happy for the Batfamily.

----------


## millernumber1

I noticed that they're using the second cover from Morrison's Last Rites issues (Batman #683) as the promotional cover for the upcoming omnibus of his run, and it made me kind of sad to realize that not only was Babs such a central character, but her Oracle appearance was really powerful.

Batman - R.I.P.-179.jpg

----------


## RedQueen

I realized from solicits that Batgirl is getting a new writer. Shawn Aldridge looks like he's taking over the title soon. Wonder if he'll give her new take or replicate Larsen's vibe.

Anyways he's starting off with Two Face as a villain so I'm pretty game.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I realized from solicits that Batgirl is getting a new writer. Shawn Aldridge looks like he's taking over the title soon. Wonder if he'll give her new take or replicate Larsen's vibe.
> 
> Anyways he's starting off with Two Face as a villain so I'm pretty game.


I noticed he was writing the June issue (#24), but I wasn't aware of any promotion of him anywhere as the "new *series* writer". Has anything been said anywhere if Larson is leaving the title permanently or if it's just that this is a temporary break? (I also thought there had been speculation elsewhere that there may be a few substitutions in other Bat-books for a few issues possibly because of wedding-related special issues?)

----------


## Assam

> I noticed he was writing the June issue (#24), but I wasn't aware of any promotion of him anywhere as the "new *series* writer". Has anything been said anywhere if Larson is leaving the title permanently or if it's just that this is a temporary break? (I also thought there had been speculation elsewhere that there may be a few substitutions in other Bat-books for a few issues possibly because of wedding-related special issues?)


No confirmation on anything, but my first thought when I saw that solicit was that Larson was leaving and Aldridge was just coming in to do some filler before they relaunched/revamped the book. May be wrong but I don't think it's out of the question.

----------


## MajorHoy

> No confirmation on anything, but my first thought when I saw that solicit was that Larson was leaving and Aldridge was just coming in to do some filler before they relaunched/revamped the book. May be wrong but I don't think it's out of the question.


Oh, it's not beyond the realm of possibility, but since we haven't heard anything one way or the other yet, I have no idea what DC is doing.
 (Of course, that happens a lot these days in regards to DC comics ... )

----------


## Frontier

> No confirmation on anything, but my first thought when I saw that solicit was that Larson was leaving and Aldridge was just coming in to do some filler before they relaunched/revamped the book. May be wrong but I don't think it's out of the question.


I think that's pretty likely going to be the case.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I think that's pretty likely going to be the case.


Well, if that's the way it plays out, it may cut my final attachment to the regular DC-universe (though I'd probably still get _Scooby-Doo Team-Up_).
The *last* thing I'd want is for _Batgirl_ to become more like the other _Bat-books_ I no longer enjoy.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Well, if that's the way it plays out, it may cut my final attachment to the regular DC-universe


Did you drop NSMatJLC? 




> The *last* thing I'd want is for _Batgirl_ to become more like the other _Bat-books_ I no longer enjoy.


I'm just hoping (although not optimistic) that Batgirl becomes a book I actually want to read for the first time in over a decade.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Did you drop NSMatJLC?


Planned to just trade-wait at this point; I usually preferred reading that title at two-or-three issues in a row rather than just one per a month. (Also, I no longer go to a comic book shop every week since the one I had been using closed when the owner had a better job opportunity come up. The one I use now I visit maybe once a month or so.)




> I'm just hoping (although not optimistic) that Batgirl becomes a book I actually want to read for the first time in over a decade.


I just accept that even though the Barbara Gordon I use to enjoy as Batgirl (back in the last century) isn't going to come back, the current version isn't bad and can be enjoyable as she is. It's when you judge her based on previous versions that people miss out on what's enjoyable with the current version.

----------


## RedQueen

Seems they're doing it in a quiet transition. Doesn't say filler on the solicit and the guy's twitter says he's the writer on batgirl. 

I'm worried about current sales though. Batgirl is steady but the numbers are falling into dangerous territory. I'm hoping DC will do something with the character that will send Babs to new heights so to speak.

----------


## Assam

> Seems they're doing it in a quiet transition. Doesn't say filler on the solicit and the guy's twitter says he's the writer on batgirl.


Still, that could just mean he's doing a few issues or a full arc. 




> I'm worried about current sales though. Batgirl is steady but the numbers are falling into dangerous territory. I'm hoping DC will do something with the character that will send Babs to new heights so to speak.


Yeah, that's been part of my train of thought. DC's been on a bit of a cancelling spree lately, even if only a few of the cancellations have been from low sales, and from certain things which have been said, it looks like at least 5 of the 6 main line books that still sell lower than Batgirl won't be seeing 2019 (I think we'll be seeing one of their cancellations next week) and the only reason Deathstroke is a 'maybe' is because of Priest, but even then he may be on his final arc for all we know. Batgirl is a book DC wants to have out and it _can_ do so much more than it has been these past years. I don't expect _much_ at this point, but hopefully they'll do something.

----------


## RedQueen

> Yeah, that's been part of my train of thought. DC's been on a bit of a cancelling spree lately, even if only a few of the cancellations have been from low sales, and from certain things which have been said, it looks like at least 5 of the 6 main line books that still sell lower than Batgirl won't be seeing 2019 (I think we'll be seeing one of their cancellations next week) and the only reason Deathstroke is a 'maybe' is because of Priest, but even then he may be on his final arc for all we know. Batgirl is a book DC wants to have out and it can do so much more than it has been these past years. I don't expect much at this point, but hopefully they'll do something.


True, I don't see them giving up on Batgirl anytime soon. When they started getting over the honeymoon period and started canceling Rebirth low sellers I got a bit nervous. I think the Batgirl solo title only sold 2k more than BatBOP lately so I'm just kind of angry for DC not taking action in regard for the decline, so a new creative team might bring in something new but there is no hype train anymore for Batgirl. The novelty of the costume wore off for sales and things have stabilized for Rebirth. My only hope is that batgirl can gain at least another 10k in sales just for the stability in long term. 

I honestly don't see them getting rid of it, but it's kind of a bummer with all the lackluster surrounding Batgirl.

----------


## Assam

> The novelty of the costume wore off for sales and things have stabilized for Rebirth. My only hope is that batgirl can gain at least another 10k in sales just for the stability in long term.


This is what I'm always talking about. _Batgirl_ has basically coasted the last 7 years on gimmicks. From the triple punch of Nu52/Simone/Babsgirl to Burnside to early-Rebirth, the book didn't have to stand on its own. Now after years of bad stories weakening the brand and the middle finger being given to 3 large fanbases, the current book's weak sales are all it can do. 

That's why I think re-launching the book with Cass and Steph as the central supporting characters would be a good idea  for more than just personal reasons. It'd be a new gimmick to get the sales back up in the short term and in the long term, assuming they got the right writer, it could at least partially get their fanbases back on board.

----------


## RedQueen

> This is what I'm always talking about. _Batgirl_ has basically coasted the last 7 years on gimmicks. From the triple punch of Nu52/Simone/Babsgirl to Burnside to early-Rebirth, the book didn't have to stand on its own. Now after years of bad stories weakening the brand and the middle finger being given to 3 large fanbases, the current book's weak sales are all it can do. 
> 
> That's why I think re-launching the book with Cass and Steph as the central supporting characters would be a good idea  for more than just personal reasons. It'd be a new gimmick to get the sales back up in the short term and in the long term, assuming they got the right writer, it could at least partially get their fanbases back on board.


Gimmicks could never work long term for Babs because she's already been established as character for too long. Sure they can pull of a gimmick every now and then but for long term this direction isn't doing anything for Babs. Sure it can sell statues and merch but the actual comic itself is just as a whole is just doing nothing revolutionary for the character. I mean look how good Dickbats and Grayson runs were for Dick Grayson. Babs has had some good issues and and interesting topics in her runs, but I don't think there's been an instance of what Brubaker did for Selina or what Geoff Johns did for Arthur and Mera. I mean she's still Babs sometimes but they need to give her some quality stuff.

I don't know what status quo would bring up the numbers, but I think she definitely needs something new. I've always wanted to see her get a League of Assassin's story line with Cass, but considering Cass's current origins I don't see it happening. I just want Babs out of Burnside.

Sadly with the 3 Jokers story line is where I think Babs will become "relevant" again. One is the TKJ and I'd say DC would get a lot of crap if they didn't give her a narrative with this very specific Joker.

----------


## Frontier

> Sadly with the 3 Jokers story line is where I think Babs will become "relevant" again. One is the TKJ and I'd say DC would get a lot of crap if they didn't give her a narrative with this very specific Joker.


Now that I think about it, Geoff Johns seems to be a Barbara Gordon fan and has included her a few times in his work, and was even said to be planning on an "All-Star Batgirl" book once-upon-a-time. 

So an appearance in Johns' "Three Jokers" storyline might not be too far-fetched.

----------


## MajorHoy

> ... Sadly with the 3 Jokers story line is where I think Babs will become "relevant" again. One is the TKJ and I'd say DC would get a lot of crap if they didn't give her a narrative with this very specific Joker.


And when Barbara-as-Batgirl had some good issues vs. the Joker (the "_Death of the Family_" issues), they were forced to have Barbara give up in the end so Brucie-boy could save the entire family to wrap up that arc in Snyder's _Batman_. (Except Bruce screwed that one up, allowing Joker to escape, and Bruce wound up as a colossal Bat-putz.)

----------


## Godlike13

Unknown creator, little promotion, and for the most part Batgirl has been isolated and ignored since Rebirth. Of course Rebirth Batgirl’s sales have been unspectacular.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Unknown creator, little promotion, and for the most part Batgirl has been isolated and ignored since Rebirth. Of course Rebirth Batgirl’s sales have been unspectacular.


Yep. She's being ignored becuase she doesn't have the large impact on the DCU compared to her Oracle days. When she was Oracle she was everywhere and was great assistance to most stories. 

I'm just waiting for DC to realize the direction they put her the past couple of years was idiotic from the start.

----------


## Godlike13

She’s being ignored because the office’s priories seem to be elsewhere. Like for example wanting to push Batwoman at the ‘3rd pillar’, and they let Batgirl fall to the wayside. Oracle actually was often ignored and underappreciated. Batman Reborn was a frustrating example of this.

----------


## Agent Z

> Shes being ignored because the offices priories seem to be elsewhere. Like for example wanting to push Batwoman at the 3rd pillar, and they let Batgirl fall to the wayside. Oracle actually was often ignored and underappreciated. Batman Reborn was frustrating example of this.


Batman Reborn was the exception not the rule. And it was in the latter days of the old universe.

----------


## Caivu

> Shes being ignored because the offices priories seem to be elsewhere. Like for example wanting to push Batwoman at the 3rd pillar


That was not a thing. It was marketing talk for one crossover that didn't amount to anything like what you're implying.

----------


## RedQueen

> Now that I think about it, Geoff Johns seems to be a Barbara Gordon fan and has included her a few times in his work, and was even said to be planning on an "All-Star Batgirl" book once-upon-a-time. 
> 
> So an appearance in Johns' "Three Jokers" storyline might not be too far-fetched.


True. I remember him talking about Barbara in Earth One just about a month ago also. Hard to tell if he's got a passion for the character but I do think she's been on his radar a bit but nothing ever comes to fruition. Could definitely see him using her down the track for 3 Jokers.

With them bringing in Watchmen into the fold, nothing is off the table with Alan Moore's work now, so I can definitely seem them trying to make some sort of unofficial Killing Joke sequel.

----------


## sorboares

Burnside is what brought Batgirl down.  The horrible art, stupid storylines,  immature costume and so much more.  
Now Batgirl is ignored coz she doesn't fit in with the rest of the Batfamily. 
Batgirl/Babs needs to move back to Gotham, update her costume something like Gail Simones new 52 series and become a force to be reckoned with again. 
No more silly villains and new love interests every issue.
I want to see a strong crime fighter who can hold her own against Batmans villains.
Show her computer skills from when she was Oracle but show her fighting skills as well.

----------


## Godlike13

> Batman Reborn was the exception not the rule. And it was in the latter days of the old universe.


Unfortunately it wasn’t, DC stalled out when it came to Oracle. Batman Reborn was the latest example of it. 




> That was not a thing. It was marketing talk for one crossover that didn't amount to anything like what you're implying.


Batwoman’s Rebirth push is very clearly a thing. Which is fine, it shouldn’t be an either or thing. They should push Batwoman, but at the same time they shouldn’t isolate Batgirl and let her fall to the wayside like they seem to have.

----------


## Caivu

> Batwoman’s Rebirth push is very clearly a thing.


...no? It's not.  :Confused: 

Is that why they do the bare amount of promotion and get descriptions of her issues wrong? Sorta like with Barbara?

(We're getting off topic, I know)

----------


## RedQueen

Anyone notice Babs blink and you'll miss cameo in Ready Player One with the rest of the Arkham crew?

----------


## Agent Z

> Unfortunately it wasnt, DC stalled out when it came to Oracle. Batman Reborn was the latest example of it.


She was the leader of her own superhero team, played a major role in several DC stories in the Batfamily or wider DCU and was considered the top information broker for superheroes. You don't get that if you're underappreciated for most of your history which we can say for Barbara since the New 52 started and she hasn't recovered from that since.

----------


## Godlike13

> She was the leader of her own superhero team, played a major role in several DC stories in the Batfamily or wider DCU and was considered the top information broker for superheroes. You don't get that if you're underappreciated for most of your history which we can say for Barbara since the New 52 started and she hasn't recovered from that since.


Her superhero team wasnt what it was anymore, and Oracle started seeing very little actual progression. BoP became a fallback and inconsistent. And as for being a top information broker, what it actually meant was bit roles in other heroes stories. Which I’d take all the Oracle I could get, but where were the Oracle stories. We got the Cure but honestly that was just another display of DC being stuck. Where was that next new take or character progression. With Batman Reborn it became clear that that wasn’t coming.

----------


## atomicbattery

A little caveat to Batgirl sales talk-

Back in 2011 Batgirl was described as the cornerstone book in DC’s digital sales initiative.
It was going to be a book explicitly designed to appeal to an audience more likely to read a comic on their phone than ever enter a traditional comic shop.
The current Batgirl book does not appeal to the typical floppy reader (which, if my comic shop is any indication, is still mostly males in their thirties thru sixties). In fact, it seems designed to specifically annoy those guys. Just go to YouTube and search ‘Batgirl’ and ‘sjw’ and you can see lots of videos of middle aged males kicking issues of Batgirl across the floor and throwing them in the trash can.
Really.

We don’t know if Batgirl sells ten issues, a hundred, or ten thousand per month digitally, because DC doesn’t report digital sales figures.
But- for this title in particular- using traditional sales numbers does not tell the whole story.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Burnside is what brought Batgirl down.  The horrible art, stupid storylines,  immature costume and so much more.  
> Now Batgirl is ignored coz she doesn't fit in with the rest of the Batfamily. 
> Batgirl/Babs needs to move back to Gotham, update her costume something like Gail Simones new 52 series and become a force to be reckoned with again.





> She was the leader of her own superhero team, played a major role in several DC stories in the Batfamily or wider DCU and was considered the top information broker for superheroes. You don't get that if you're underappreciated for most of your history which we can say for Barbara since the New 52 started and she hasn't recovered from that since.


Perhaps the biggest roadblock for Barbara has been the decision to *SERIOUSLY* de-age her for the _New52_. She didn't just lose a few years like many others did at the start of the _New52_. Her father was de-aged enough to lose much of his (previously) gray hair, but Babs was de-aged to the point that she's no longer significantly older than Dick Grayson!
And as part of the de-aging, DC apparently felt it was appropriate to take away much of the skills/experience she had developed over the years. (Sort of like how Damian seemed to have lost some of his maturity at the start of the _New52_ so he was back to being more of an über-brat.)

----------


## Pohzee

> Her superhero team wasnt what it was anymore, and Oracle started seeing very little actual progression. BoP became a fallback and inconsistent. And as for being a top information broker, what it actually meant was bit roles in other heroes stories. Which I’d take all the Oracle I could get, but where were the Oracle stories. We got the Cure but honestly that was just another display of DC being stuck. Where was that next new take or character progression. With Batman Reborn it became clear that that wasn’t coming.


I liked her well enough in Black Mirror.

----------


## Frontier

> Her superhero team wasnt what it was anymore, and Oracle started seeing very little actual progression. BoP became a fallback and inconsistent. And as for being a top information broker, what it actually meant was bit roles in other heroes stories. Which I’d take all the Oracle I could get, but where were the Oracle stories. We got the Cure but honestly that was just another display of DC being stuck. Where was that next new take or character progression. With Batman Reborn it became clear that that wasn’t coming.


Well, a "bit role" gave her a role that had her popping up in most DC books, and her more major focus was generally saved for the Bat-Books.

Conversely to some degree it's always felt like Barbara's Batgirl books have been more regressive rather then progressing her character forward in any meaningful way.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The current Batgirl book does not appeal to the typical floppy reader (which, if my comic shop is any indication, is still mostly males in their thirties thru sixties). In fact, it seems designed to specifically annoy those guys. Just go to YouTube and search ‘Batgirl’ and ‘sjw’ and you can see lots of videos of middle aged males kicking issues of Batgirl across the floor and throwing them in the trash can.
> Really.


Wow, that's just pathetic. That is literally the stereotype of basement dwelling comic book fans.

----------


## millernumber1

> Her superhero team wasnt what it was anymore, and Oracle started seeing very little actual progression. BoP became a fallback and inconsistent. And as for being a top information broker, what it actually meant was bit roles in other heroes stories. Which I’d take all the Oracle I could get, but where were the Oracle stories. We got the Cure but honestly that was just another display of DC being stuck. Where was that next new take or character progression. With Batman Reborn it became clear that that wasn’t coming.


Well, if they'd let Bryan Q. Miller use her more seriously in Batgirl, she would have had some serious growth there, since she had really excellent growth in the first year of that series.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, a "bit role" gave her a role that had her popping up in most DC books, and her more major focus was generally saved for the Bat-Books.
> 
> Conversely to some degree it's always felt like Barbara's Batgirl books have been more regressive rather then progressing her character forward in any meaningful way.


Oh come on, she was not popping up in most DC books. And she wasn’t even a major focus in the Bat books she appeared in save for Batgirl and BoP. And in Batgirl she was more or less their sidekick “mentor”. 

Turning Babs into Batgirl was a regression, but it’s a regression that eventually lead to progression like Burnside and that entire new world that’s was built around her. Now I know not everyone likes Burnside or that direction, and that’s fine, but even still as Batgirl she is seeing new takes and progressive world building that we stopped seeing them do with Oracle. 




> Well, if they'd let Bryan Q. Miller use her more seriously in Batgirl, she would have had some serious growth there, since she had really excellent growth in the first year of that series.


BQM just tried to fix the regressive sad direction the character was undergoing prior. I liked that’s series quite a bit, but at the same time that series and Oracle’s position in it, and overall at that time, spoke quite a bit about how important Oracle really was to DC.

----------


## RedQueen

I love Oracle, but in this day and age when even Stephanie is an instahacker the role of Oracle has lost it's role in the narrative, definitely not her importance or impact, but when everyone  is a hacker and could do it in the field by themselves and Oracle played the role of tech support in the past, do characters need Babs? Barbara would essentially just play a supporting role to other characters and Babs is a character who doesn't warrant second fiddle status in someone else's title. Anyways the only solution would be for everyone to take an intellectual power down, and I don't see people who enjoy the fan favorite characters taking that sort of hit (when the characters just got an intellectual power up) lightly.

Anyhow I think they're showing Babs' intellect better nowadays, but she doesn't have the same level of gravitas or status in the Batfam. I mean when when she was old school Batgirl and Oracle you could definitely sense her status, now she's taking hits from these F-list villains and getting played by shallow love interests every other issue.

There is a definite void in the Batfam that Babs used to fill, but now it's hard to judge what her role could be when writers care more about fulfilling this new gimmick rather than giving a damn about the character herself.

----------


## Frontier

> I love Oracle, but in this day and age when even Stephanie is an instahacker the role of Oracle has lost it's role in the narrative, definitely not her importance or impact, but when everyone  is a hacker and could do it in the field by themselves and Oracle played the role of tech support in the past, do characters need Babs? Barbara would essentially just play a supporting role to other characters and Babs is a character who doesn't warrant second fiddle status in someone else's title. Anyways the only solution would be for everyone to take an intellectual power down, and I don't see people who enjoy the fan favorite characters taking that sort of hit (when the characters just got an intellectual power up) lightly.
> 
> Anyhow I think they're showing Babs' intellect better nowadays, but she doesn't have the same level of gravitas or status in the Batfam. I mean when when she was old school Batgirl and Oracle you could definitely sense her status, now she's taking hits from these F-list villains and getting played by shallow love interests every other issue.
> 
> There is a definite void in the Batfam that Babs used to fill, but now it's hard to judge what her role could be when writers care more about fulfilling this new gimmick rather than giving a damn about the character herself.


I think it's kind of sad that Felicity Smoak of all characters is made into what Oracle was for the DCU, to the point where people were expecting the writers to dub her Oracle at some point.

----------


## RedQueen

> I think it's kind of sad that Felicity Smoak of all characters is made into what Oracle was for the DCU, to the point where people were expecting the writers to dub her Oracle at some point.


I remember that. I don't keep up with Arrow but I do remember that Felicity ended up in a wheelchair at one point and then was able to walk again by chip just like Barbara. I mean I watched occasionally but the I do remember the fury about the Oracle stuff with fans, to the point the writers had to clarify in an interview. I think she was even mentioned in an episode at one point but it's been ages since I kept up with the DCTV stuff. But I've seen what the writers of the show can do and I'm pretty sure they would've handle it with all the grace of how they handled black canary's death.

I think at one point Babs was maybe gonna appear in Titans in a casting call or something ages ago, but I don't think they're gonna pursue that now either.

----------


## Caivu

The Batgirl movie is back on. Christina Hodson writing.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...writer-1101078

----------


## Pohzee

> The Batgirl movie is back on. Christina Hodson writing.
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...writer-1101078





> Barbra Gordon is the most established version of the character, who was initially introduced in 1961 as Betty Kane. But the character was revamped in 1967 when television executives wanted to attract a female audience to the Batman TV series, then faltering in its third season.


That is a really weird way of putting it. Probably shows how Hollywood heads see it.

----------


## Carabas

> The Batgirl movie is back on. Christina Hodson writing.
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...writer-1101078


*hops over to Wikipedia to see what else she has written*

Oh dear. Odds of this to be even more bleak and depressing than Gail Simone's New 52 run are high.
And Jim Jr. seems to be exactly her type of villian.

----------


## RedQueen

I'm hoping with Babs getting exposure that people at the HR will learn how to spell Barbara correctly...

No but I'm psyched. Glad there is movement for this movie. It's interesting that she wrote the Harley Quinn BoP spinoff that actually has Babs in it as it says in the article. So there are two movies lined up to feature Babs.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I'm hoping with Babs getting exposure that people at the HR will learn how to spell Barbara correctly...


They're maybe too fixated with the way Streisand spells her first name?  :Wink:

----------


## Rac7d*

With great yearone batgirl can come follow great year one Dick grayson

----------


## sorboares

I am so excited that the Batgirl movie is happening again. I really hope this movie is a serious take on how Barbara is smart, strong and mature. 
I hope she has a great costume like she wore in Gail Simones new 52 Batgirl series or like Arkham Knight or even something similar to Ben Affleks costume but with longer ears!
I can't wait for this movie!

----------


## RedQueen

This is from a turned down comic pitch, Batman 89 which would be a continuation for Burton's films. Looks sick and I wish DC gave it a go.

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/b...-we-almost-got

The Batgirl design looks is very cool and very different. Would fit right in with Burton's vision. It would have been cool to see it in action.



Seriously I wish Joe Quinones would do some Batgirl covers or something. I liked that one he did a while ago.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This is from a turned down comic pitch, Batman 89 which would be a continuation for Burton's films. Looks sick and I wish DC gave it a go.
> 
> http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/b...-we-almost-got
> 
> The Batgirl design looks is very cool and very different. Would fit right in with Burton's vision. It would have been cool to see it in action.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously I wish Joe Quinones would do some Batgirl covers or something. I liked that one he did a while ago.


this is like a updated better version of cass's orphan

----------


## atomicbattery

> This is from a turned down comic pitch, Batman 89 which would be a continuation for Burton's films. Looks sick and I wish DC gave it a go.


After Beetlejuice and Edward Scissorhands, Im guessing Quinones would have modeled his Batgirl on Winona Ryder.
Would have been quite a stretch to imagine her as the daughter of Pat Hingles Comissioner Gordon!

----------


## Frontier

> This is from a turned down comic pitch, Batman 89 which would be a continuation for Burton's films. Looks sick and I wish DC gave it a go.
> 
> http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/b...-we-almost-got
> 
> The Batgirl design looks is very cool and very different. Would fit right in with Burton's vision. It would have been cool to see it in action.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously I wish Joe Quinones would do some Batgirl covers or something. I liked that one he did a while ago.


I wouldn't want it as a main Batgirl costume, but for something meant for the Burton films and an Elseworlds title I think it works quite well  :Smile: .

----------


## MajorHoy

> 


Looks like somebody trying to be "Spider-Bat" to me.

----------


## sorboares

> Looks like somebody trying to be "Spider-Bat" to me.


Yeh I agree looks too much like Spider webs on her.  I want Batgirl not SpiderBat

----------


## millernumber1

Does the new Nightwing cover spoil a new Batgirl suit for us?

----------


## RedQueen

> Does the new Nightwing cover spoil a new Batgirl suit for us?


I hope so...but I think the artist just did his own take. I noticed a lot of artists have scrapped the Doc Marten boots for a more combat boot look. I think it's personal choice.

----------


## atomicbattery

> I hope so...but I think the artist just did his own take. I noticed a lot of artists have scrapped the Doc Marten boots for a more combat boot look. I think it's personal choice.


Yeah, it appears to be a more sleekly drawn, perhaps more traditionally ‘superhero-y’ take on the Burnside look (maybe the Burnside costume has become too established in merchandising to be abandoned at this point?).

----------


## atomicbattery

Very excited to see a backup story by Paul Dini in the Batgirl solicit. His few times writing Barbara have been favorites (Batgirl Adventures#1, ‘Over the Edge’ from the animated series).
And Emanuela Lupacchino’s art is just gorgeous.

----------


## sorboares

> Does the new Nightwing cover spoil a new Batgirl suit for us?


That's what I thought when I first saw it. It actually looks great BUT than sadly I saw the Batgirl issue 25 cover and she has her normal Burnside costume on. 
What a let down,  I was so excited there for a bit!

----------


## RedQueen

So just confirmed on twitter, but Larson is finishing her run on Batgirl.

Wonder who will be next up. Looking the solicits and it seems it's changing month to month. It will be interesting what track they'll decide to pursue.

----------


## Restingvoice

This extra-sized anniversary issue also offers a look at the next arc of the series by Mairghread Scott and Paul Pelletier as the monstrous villain Grotesque murders wealthy art owners and defiles their bodies to create his own “art.”

There's already a Grotesque in New 52 but he collects pretty things. The new one sounds more interesting.
Batgirl_Vol_4_8.jpg

----------


## Frontier

I like Mairghead Scott and I like Paul Pelletier, so I'm down to see them try their hand at Batgirl  :Smile: .

I'm also really looking forward to Paul Dini's story in issue #25.

----------


## Daniel22

> So just confirmed on twitter, but Larson is finishing her run on Batgirl.
> 
> Wonder who will be next up. Looking the solicits and it seems it's changing month to month. It will be interesting what track they'll decide to pursue.


Larson's run has not been to my tastes. Really excited to see what the next writer can do with the book. I'm ready for one of my favorite characters to be in one of my favorite books again. It's been a long time since I really liked "Batgirl" and I hope this next writer kills it.

----------


## Armor of God

Grotesque sounds like the Daredevil villain Muse. I haven't bothered with a Babsgirl book on an ongoing  basis since the Future's End one shot so maybe I'll give it a chance. Getting 25 for Dick anyway

----------


## MajorHoy

> Larson's run has not been to my tastes. Really excited to see what the next writer can do with the book. I'm ready for one of my favorite characters to be in one of my favorite books again. It's been a long time since I really liked "Batgirl" and I hope this next writer kills it.


Has it actually been announced anywhere (either by DC or Larson) that she's definitely done writing _Batgirl_, or are people just assuming it because she's not writing the next several issues?  :Confused:

----------


## RedQueen

> Has it actually been announced anywhere (either by DC or Larson) that she's definitely done writing _Batgirl_, or are people just assuming it because she's not writing the next several issues?


She's confirmed it on her own twitter.

----------


## MajorHoy

> She's confirmed it on her own twitter.


Do you have a link?

(I don't normally twit, especially since the *BotUS* seems to do so excessively.)

----------


## Assam

> Do you have a link?
> 
> (I don't normally twit, especially since the *BotUS* seems to do so excessively.)


https://twitter.com/hopelarson/statu...56376350560257

----------


## MajorHoy

> https://twitter.com/hopelarson/statu...56376350560257


Thanks.


> Sorry to say that I've finished my run on Batgirl! There are a couple more issues still to come, . . .


So, by "a couple more", I'm assuming she means #22 (on sale April 25th) and #23 (May 23rd).
Note sure if I'll bother with any issues after #23 yet; last time I hung around for a book to give the new writer a shot was after Rucka's _Wonder Woman_ run was over and then the beginning of the Robinson mess starring *Jason!* (with special guest appearances by Wonder Woman).

God, was _that_ a mistake!

----------


## Frontier

Grey Griffin mentions Tara Strong playing Batgirl in the upcoming Lauren Faust _DC Super Hero Girls_ cartoon at around the 2:50 mark.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks.So, by "a couple more", I'm assuming she means #22 (on sale April 25th) and #23 (May 23rd).
> Note sure if I'll bother with any issues after #23 yet; last time I hung around for a book to give the new writer a shot was after Rucka's _Wonder Woman_ run was over and then the beginning of the Robinson mess starring *Jason!* (with special guest appearances by Wonder Woman).
> 
> God, was _that_ a mistake!


Yeah, it does sound that way. I'm surprised they didn't at least have her do a short story for 25, but it sounds a lot like she really wants to go in a different direction right now, after two years on Babs.

(And I was fortunate enough to just jump ship immediately after Rucka left. I have NOT regretted that choice one bit.  :Smile:  )

----------


## RedQueen

https://batman-news.com/2018/04/18/h...-prey-scripts/

So this is the first time any Batgirl news has mentioned Babs by name, I mean I think it was obvious they were gonna use her but this just somewhat confirmed it.

But man it sounds like it's more a Gotham City Sirens movie more so than BoP. I mean it sounds like the relationship between Babs and Harley is gonna be the "heart" of the film so to speak. I mean it sounds like they're aiming for a trio. No Black Canary maybe which I will riot over.

If the rumor about Joker being the villain for the movie is true, I can see a valid reason for Babs to team up with Harley without hindering her good guy status.

All just rumors at this point but I find it interesting.

----------


## atomicbattery

> https://batman-news.com/2018/04/18/h...-prey-scripts/
> 
> So this is the first time any Batgirl news has mentioned Babs by name, I mean I think it was obvious they were gonna use her but this just somewhat confirmed it.
> 
> But man it sounds like it's more a Gotham City Sirens movie more so than BoP.


The Wrap say the project is currently called the Untitled Girl Gang Movie at WB.
So, maybe it will be Gotham City Sirens, or Birds of Prey, or something else.

So happy WB/DC is leaning into the female superheroes. After the success of Wonder Woman, it is their best possible lane. And with the success of DC Superhero Girls, these certainly very loosely connected films could not only attract the very substantial comic book movie crowd, but- without being kids films- attract an unexploited audience that has made Disney princesses a movie and merchandising goldmine for decades.

----------


## Restingvoice

Batgirl #23 by Joshua Middleton
DbttwifXcAAUNLr.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Batgirl #23 by Joshua Middleton
> DbttwifXcAAUNLr.jpg


That is a pretty cool image!

----------


## Godlike13

> Batgirl #23 by Joshua Middleton
> Attachment 65185


This is fantastic.

----------


## RedQueen

> Batgirl #23 by Joshua Middleton
> Attachment 65185


His covers are always gorgeous but Babs looks absolutely stunning.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Batgirl #23 by Joshua Middleton
> Attachment 65185


Does he do interior art work any more?  It would be quite lovely/amazing/wonderful/spectacular/superb if DC could sign him for Batgirl...but I haven't seen him do interior work in ages.

----------


## Frontier

> His covers are always gorgeous but Babs looks absolutely stunning.


I especially love how he depicts her hair  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Carabas

> Does he do interior art work any more?  It would be quite lovely/amazing/wonderful/spectacular/superb if DC could sign him for Batgirl...but I haven't seen him do interior work in ages.


He's never done much interior work. Just the occasional one-shot or mini series. I believe his personal record is a run of six issues of Meridian (Crossgen) at the very start of his career.

----------


## millernumber1

The latest Super Hero Girls shows Babs being really irritated with inappropriate selfie time.  :Smile: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyP-bkTYk-I

----------


## The World

Don't think I saw this here but this figure looks pretty great imo. My favorite of the bunch really.



DC ARTISTS ALLEY: BATGIRL BY SHO MURASE

Sculpted by Sam Greenwell
Size: Figures measure 7’’ tall
MSRP: $40.00 - Each sold separately
Individually numbered
On Sale December 2018
Standard Figure limited to 3,000 pieces
Holiday Variant Figure limited to 500 pieces

http://batmannotes.com/post/17355072...girl-the-flash

----------


## RedQueen

> Don't think I saw this here but this figure looks pretty great imo. My favorite of the bunch really.
> 
> 
> 
> DC ARTISTS ALLEY: THE FLASH BY CHRIS UMINGA
> 
> Sculpted by Joe Menna
> Size: Figures measure 6.4’’ tall
> MSRP: $40.00 – Each sold separately
> ...


Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. Definitely gonna check that out on release.

----------


## Frontier

> Don't think I saw this here but this figure looks pretty great imo. My favorite of the bunch really.
> 
> 
> 
> DC ARTISTS ALLEY: BATGIRL BY SHO MURASE
> 
> Sculpted by Sam Greenwell
> Size: Figures measure 7’’ tall
> MSRP: $40.00 - Each sold separately
> ...


I don't even care about the Burnside influences because this is so beautiful  :Big Grin: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't even care about the Burnside influences because this is so beautiful .


I keep saying that it really depends on the artist.  :Smile:

----------


## RedQueen

Batgirl #23 preview. It's Larson's last issue before Babs starts to get a revolving of creative teams I predict.

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/previews/batgirl-23/

----------


## Frontier

I'm interested to see what Scott's run is like since it seems to be going back to more serious stakes and stories compared to the previous  Burnside tone of the book. 

Which also makes the current costume seem even more out-of-place  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm interested to see what Scott's run is like since it seems to be going back to more serious stakes and stories compared to the previous  Burnside tone of the book. 
> 
> Which also makes the current costume seem even more out-of-place .


Theoretically, Larson's run was supposed to be more mature than Burnside. And if you look at the first arc, I think there were elements of that. But it quickly devolved into the cutesy, no-stakes silliness again. I really think shifting Babs to Burnside is the real problem. (Not the costume. I know I keep saying this, but I think you just need to find the right artist, and it looks fine. Like Alvaro Martinez.  :Wink:  ).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Theoretically, Larson's run was supposed to be more mature than Burnside. And if you look at the first arc, I think there were elements of that. But it quickly devolved into the cutesy, no-stakes silliness again. I really think shifting Babs to Burnside is the real problem. (Not the costume. I know I keep saying this, but I think you just need to find the right artist, and it looks fine. Like Alvaro Martinez.  ).


Silly stories that reeked of bad ideas were why Batgirl was getting horrible anyway but why do you think shifting Barbara to Burnside was the bad idea?

----------


## millernumber1

> Silly stories that reeked of bad ideas were why Batgirl was getting horrible anyway but why do you think shifting Barbara to Burnside was the bad idea?


It's a neighborhood that's too safe. None of the stories that have been told there have given it a sense of menace like Gotham, Bludhaven, or Marvel's NYC has. If there's no danger, then Batgirl's going to seem unnecessary and frivolous.  (Also, to be fair, "dark" stories can be silly, too, like a lot of Simone's stuff in the first half of the n52). And a "light" story can be serious, like Batgirl Year One.

----------


## Godlike13

The Stewart, Fletcher, Tarr run was more mature then people give it credit for. Well except for the villains. Larson's run is less mature and very Saturday morning cartoon like. 

And Burnside's still relatively new. They can, and should, explore darker sides of it. Burnside is not its own city though, its a part of Gotham. But because Batgirl has been so isolated it just seem like she is in a different city.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's a neighborhood that's too safe. None of the stories that have been told there have given it a sense of menace like Gotham, Bludhaven, or Marvel's NYC has. If there's no danger, then Batgirl's going to seem unnecessary and frivolous.  (Also, to be fair, "dark" stories can be silly, too, like a lot of Simone's stuff in the first half of the n52). And a "light" story can be serious, like Batgirl Year One.


Well like Godlike 13 said Burnside is a pretty new place not much about it has been explored yet but since it is part of Gotham it's criminal element should be there actually causing the same kind of mayhem Batman handles. So on those grounds if the new team chooses a more dark and mature direction I'm down with it. What was so silly about Gail Simone's run anyway?

----------


## millernumber1

> The Stewart, Fletcher, Tarr run was more mature then people give it credit for. Well except for the villains. Larson's run is less mature and very Saturday morning cartoon like. 
> 
> And Burnside's still relatively new. They can, and should, explore darker sides of it. Burnside is not its own city though, its a part of Gotham. But because Batgirl has been so isolated it just seem like she is in a different city.


I agree that they should explore darker sides. But they haven't.

I think Burnside is a suburb, so it's sort of a city, sort of a neighborhood. I'm pretty sure it's across the river from Gotham island proper.

As for the first Burnside run being more mature than I give it credit for...hmmm. Probably have to agree to disagree. Though I do agree that Larson's run became progressively more and more immature.




> Well like Godlike 13 said Burnside is a pretty new place not much about it has been explored yet but since it is part of Gotham it's criminal element should be there actually causing the same kind of mayhem Batman handles. So on those grounds if the new team chooses a more dark and mature direction I'm down with it. What was so silly about Gail Simone's run anyway?


I just don't see any inclination on the part of DC to change the safeness of Burnside.

Simone's stuff had people making incredibly stupid and silly decisions fairly consistently. There was a really dumb vampire issue, for example. And Babs's defeat of her main antagonist blatantly ripped off Chris Yost's climax for the first year of Red Robin, only less convincingly.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I just don't see any inclination on the part of DC to change the safeness of Burnside.
> 
> Simone's stuff had people making incredibly stupid and silly decisions fairly consistently. There was a really dumb vampire issue, for example. And Babs's defeat of her main antagonist blatantly ripped off Chris Yost's climax for the first year of Red Robin, only less convincingly.


I don't know the latest solicitations for Batgirl sound a little dark for a writing team that's staying with the Saturday morning cartoon route Batgirl has been stuck for some time already. What are these stupid decisions Gail Simone had the characters do? Simone ripped off Tim's defeat of Ra's al Ghul? That's weird.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know the latest solicitations for Batgirl sound a little dark for a writing team that's staying with the Saturday morning cartoon route Batgirl has been stuck for some time already. What are these stupid decisions Gail Simone had the characters do? Simone ripped off Tim's defeat of Ra's al Ghul? That's weird.


I mean...I'd refer you to the original text.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean...I'd refer you to the original text.


I see I'd have to read Simone's Batgirl run myself but if it's supposed to be that bad I cannot imagine that Simone was the woman who wrote Birds of Prey then again Barbara was a totally different character back then.

----------


## Frontier

> Theoretically, Larson's run was supposed to be more mature than Burnside. And if you look at the first arc, I think there were elements of that. But it quickly devolved into the cutesy, no-stakes silliness again. I really think shifting Babs to Burnside is the real problem. (Not the costume. I know I keep saying this, but I think you just need to find the right artist, and it looks fine. Like Alvaro Martinez.  ).


I don't recall Larson stating that she intended to move the book in a more serious and mature direction, although it's possible that she did, but the only time I felt she was trying for something to that effect was "Summer of Lies." 

I think Martinez does a fine depiction of the costume, as have other artists, but I don't think anyone has been able to really get around the issues it has as Babs' current look.

Although given Supergirl just recently got a redesign, Batgirl may be due one as well.

----------


## millernumber1

> I see I'd have to read Simone's Batgirl run myself but if it's supposed to be that bad I cannot imagine that Simone was the woman who wrote Birds of Prey then again Barbara was a totally different character back then.


Well. Simone's first run on Birds of Prey is a masterpiece. But her second was pretty mediocre, with a couple flashes of brilliance, and her Batgirl was just kinda mushy and sad. Plus, I really didn't like the art that much. But it has its defenders.




> I don't recall Larson stating that she intended to move the book in a more serious and mature direction, although it's possible that she did, but the only time I felt she was trying for something to that effect was "Summer of Lies." 
> 
> I think Martinez does a fine depiction of the costume, as have other artists, but I don't think anyone has been able to really get around the issues it has as Babs' current look.
> 
> Although given Supergirl just recently got a redesign, Batgirl may be due one as well.


I don't think Larson did say that - I was saying that based on my reading of the first arc, where Babs has a refreshing lack of whining and silliness (except for the crush on Kai). I thought Summer of Lies was okay, but was quickly frustrated by the clear lack of intention to actually develop the Babs/Dick relationship in ANY direction.

Eh. I think I'm pretty alone in thinking that the Burnside suit is fine, if a bit silly looking sometimes, but in the hands of the right artist, I think it can mesh well with the other suits of the family.

I do think Babs deserves a new look. And a new direction. Her current one doesn't serve her long history of awesomeness.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I thought Summer of Lies was okay, but was quickly frustrated by the clear lack of intention to actually develop the Babs/Dick relationship in ANY direction.


I kind of just expect that from any Babs/Dick team-up at this point, so it didn't really bother me. 



> I do think Babs deserves a new look. And a new direction. Her current one doesn't serve her long history of awesomeness.


On this, we're absolutely agreed  :Cool: .

----------


## RedQueen

I think individually the Burnside look is great, will admit that, but for longevity and serving babs as character, doesn't seem to suit her. She should have some sort of tech decked out suit or something or even something that looks sleek just  for the aesthetic. A few artists draw the leather jacket a bit chunky so looks weird with the short cape. So something sleek and stealthy would be a nice change.




> I kind of just expect that from any Babs/Dick team-up at this point, so it didn't really bother me.



Major mood. Dickbabs used to have one for the best developments and now DC thinks their whole shtick is will they/won't they while making every interaction they have completely frustrating as a fan because it's a recycling the same points again and again with no development.

----------


## Aahz

The look would be fine for young Barbara who is just starting as Batgirl, for the current Barbara (post Killing Joke, Oracle ...) it is imo not.

----------


## tothefuture

Major mood. Dickbabs used to have one for the best developments and now DC thinks their whole shtick is will they/won't they while making every interaction they have completely frustrating as a fan because it's a recycling the same points again and again with no development.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Let's hope that their interaction in July may change their relationship a bit.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya between the anniversary issue, and Nightwing's own series, seems were gonna be getting even more Dick/Babs.

----------


## Digifiend

Solicit for August implies Babs is forced back into the wheelchair. And the way Tec ended today throws a curve ball: 
*spoilers:*
Babs is now teaching Cassandra Cain. You have to wonder if they're going to redesign Batgirl alright - by changing who she is under the cowl.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedQueen

> Solicit for August implies Babs is forced back into the wheelchair. And the way Tec ended today throws a curve ball: 
> *spoilers:*
> Babs is now teaching Cassandra Cain. You have to wonder if they're going to redesign Batgirl alright - by changing who she is under the cowl.
> *end of spoilers*


I've been noticing that lately. A lot of elements of of the Oracle are reaapearing without the wheelchair though. I don't see Babs giving up the Batgirl mantel any time soon because of branding and the movies coming out. But there seems to be a definite shift for the character with these elements making a comeback. Don't know what it means for the character though with no new creative team for her title yet.

----------


## Assam

> Solicit for August implies Babs is forced back into the wheelchair. And the way Tec ended today throws a curve ball: 
> *spoilers:*
> Babs is now teaching Cassandra Cain. You have to wonder if they're going to redesign Batgirl alright - by changing who she is under the cowl.
> *end of spoilers*


Just gonna drop this here too.

https://twitter.com/MairghreadScott/...98865363300352

----------


## Frontier

I don't want to make any immediate assumptions because of the chip in the solicit (because that's happened before) or Scott being a big fan of Cass. 

The latter just indicates to me that hopefully we'll get some strong writing on the book and that Scott will handle Babs like Tynion did, by writing her as Barbara Gordon and not a millenial cosplaying Batgirl.

----------


## Assam

> I don't want to make any immediate assumptions because of the chip in the solicit (because that's happened before) or Scott being a big fan of Cass.


This is just allowing me to have a _bit_ of hope. I certainly don't think anything is definitely going to happen.

----------


## Frontier

> This is just allowing me to have a _bit_ of hope. I certainly don't think anything is definitely going to happen.


I understand why you're hopeful, though as long as Babs gets written well (and Cass is taken care of) I'm not too fussed about how things go  :Smile: .

----------


## RedQueen

I think Cass might play a role in the Batgirl title considering what 'tec recently established. And if Scott does like her then i could see a likelihood of her appearing. Barbara's supporting cast has been kind of wayside so I'd welcome Cass very gladly.

I wish they'd make babs a librarian again. She's been studying and 'tec mentioned her "librarian brain" or something to paraphrase, but I'm just sitting waiting for them to commit.

But yeah basically I have a strong desire to get her status quo refreshed.

----------


## atomicbattery

If someone tells me that they ‘love’ a comic book character, and then says that they are excited, or hopeful, that the character will return to a paraplegic state, and confinement to a wheelchair, am I wrong to question whether that person truly ‘loves’ that character?

----------


## Slim Shady

I wonder if Pelletier is going to be the main artist going forward. He's good.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If someone tells me that they ‘love’ a comic book character, and then says that they are excited, or hopeful, that the character will return to a paraplegic state, and confinement to a wheelchair, am I wrong to question whether that person truly ‘loves’ that character?


Well, if you grew up with Barbara as Oracle and someone else as Batgirl, it is possible in that regard.

----------


## Godlike13

The wheelchair should not be what defines Oracle. She can be Oracle regardless.

----------


## millernumber1

> The wheelchair should not be what defines Oracle. She can be Oracle regardless.


I agree. However, I think the wheelchair is a powerful part of her backstory, and shouldn't be discarded.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think Oracle really works as well without the disability (and the overcoming it that the identity represents).

----------


## Godlike13

We have never seen how Oracle works without the chair.

----------


## scary harpy

> If someone tells me that they love a comic book character, and then says that they are excited, or hopeful, that the character will return to a paraplegic state, and confinement to a wheelchair, am I wrong to question whether that person truly loves that character?


I agree.




> Well, if you grew up with Barbara as Oracle and someone else as Batgirl, it is possible in that regard.


I grew up with Barbara as Batgirl...then she was shot, neglected by the TPTB, became Oracle as an afterthought and forced to remain in a wheelchair for too damn long...all because when someone asked "Can we shoot Batgirl?", someone answered "Sure, we can put any bitch in the costume."!!

Sadly, the writer never thought she could be paralyzed; she's a superhero and they don't get hurt like that. But TPTB felt she was too cheerful for their *Grimdark* universe and ignored her...and her fans. Yeah, it's still infuriating.

I don't mind if Cass dresses in a 'Batgirl' costume and calls herself Black Bat or Bat Noir or Orphan. 

You can have your Batgirl without me losing mine.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well. Simone's first run on Birds of Prey is a masterpiece. But her second was pretty mediocre, with a couple flashes of brilliance, and her Batgirl was just kinda mushy and sad. Plus, I really didn't like the art that much. But it has its defenders.


I read Simone's second Birds of Prey run though not her first one and I find myself feeling weird that the Black Canary sub-plot was never resolved. I did read some of New 52 Batgirl stories particularly one where Barbara goes along with a mock wedding for the Joker. Did Simone write that?

----------


## Armor of God

Aren't the sales crappy anyway? Cant see Scott's run lasting more than 5 issues.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Aren't the sales crappy anyway? Cant see Scott's run lasting more than 5 issues.


Well if her stories are an improvement over Larson's it could go differently.

----------


## Armor of God

Not really, they are too far down at this point.

----------


## millernumber1

> I read Simone's second Birds of Prey run though not her first one and I find myself feeling weird that the Black Canary sub-plot was never resolved. I did read some of New 52 Batgirl stories particularly one where Barbara goes along with a mock wedding for the Joker. Did Simone write that?


Yup, but that was specifically part of the Death of the Family crossover that interrupted most of the ongoing storylines.

----------


## RedQueen

> Not really, they are too far down at this point.


Yeah, I think no one is too attached to the way things are with Babs atm due to her current lackluster. I keep saying I've been wanting to drop the title because I find it boring but still keep at it because I like knowing what is happening with Babs but at the same time I don't blame people for dropping it. 

They can cancel it and rejuvenate with #1 sales but that doesn't help longterm. There is a disconnect atm so I really think they need to change things up with the Batgirl title so there is longevity.

----------


## Godlike13

I think they wanted to try and tap that Super Hero Girls audience. I can't blame them for trying honestly, and i give them credit for putting female creators on it. Doesn't seem that kind of audience is there though. Though maybe they have tapped it and we're just not see it in the floppies. I don't know. Still i don't think the isolation did any favors.

Personally im open to them going Oracle 2.0 with Babs. Like i said, we have never seen what a walking Oracle would be like, especially with today's more mobile and accessible technology. Though with Tyrion making every one super hackers now a days, and the terrible way he used hacking and technology in general, that leaves me a little iffy. Plus im not convinced DC would give Babs a proper push or showcase as a lead as Oracle. If they made her Oracle again i can see them having her just be the next Batgirl's "mentor" again. Still, done well it could be cool.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Not really, they are too far down at this point.


Well there's always plan B hand the mantle back to Cassandra and Barbara chooses to become Oracle once more and stays in that position cripple or not. I'd pick Stephanie but she's currently off on holiday with Tim.

----------


## kjn

> If someone tells me that they love a comic book character, and then says that they are excited, or hopeful, that the character will return to a paraplegic state, and confinement to a wheelchair, am I wrong to question whether that person truly loves that character?


One, comic book characters aren't real. I'm not going to say that a reader who prefers evil seductress Poison Ivy is morally superior or loves the character better than a reader who prefers protector of plants and orphans Poison Ivy. The same is true for a person who prefers the character of Oracle over the one of Batgirl.

Two, Oracle's wheelchair arguably represents triumph. Batgirl had been sidelined and retired by DC, and she was fridged in _The Killing Joke_. What Kim Yale and John Ostrander did was taking a character that had been tossed aside as useless and then been crippled, and made her powerful and strong out of her own resources and capabilities.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s not right. Oracle’s wheelchair isn’t what represented triumph, Oracle is what represented triump. It was her overcoming what happen to her and continuing to be a superhero regardless of the chair.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up with Barbara as Batgirl...then she was shot, neglected by the TPTB, became Oracle as an afterthought and forced to remain in a wheelchair for too damn long...all because when someone asked "Can we shoot Batgirl?", someone answered "Sure, we can put any bitch in the costume."!!
> 
> Sadly, the writer never thought she could be paralyzed; she's a superhero and they don't get hurt like that. But TPTB felt she was too cheerful for their *Grimdark* universe and ignored her...and her fans. Yeah, it's still infuriating.
> 
> I don't mind if Cass dresses in a 'Batgirl' costume and calls herself Black Bat or Bat Noir or Orphan. 
> ...


Hey, I go back to the late '60s when I first saw Barbara on Saturday mornings, so I fully understand your point. As someone who is also not an admirer of _The Killing Joke_, I doubt there is a single person who was was a fan of Babs during the Bronze Age who liked her better as Oracle. Still, some of us here are younger than you or I and have a different perspective.

----------


## RedQueen

I kind of thought maybe Babs could get her own new codename. "Batgirl" she might outgrow and "Oracle" can only come to fruition under certain circumstances. It's either one or the other for her. 

In the situation with Carol danvers, she was "Ms Marvel" for a very long time. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it but she also had some others like Binary at some points. Then she became "Captain Marvel" and bam she hit the gold mine: sweet costume and cool code name, everything fit together at the right time. All her merch and branding came under the new codename and even though she's only had the codename for a few years, her movie is going under that name. I think if the stars align for Babs they could pull something off similar for her iconography.

----------


## millernumber1

> I grew up with Barbara as Batgirl...then she was shot, neglected by the TPTB, became Oracle as an afterthought and forced to remain in a wheelchair for too damn long...all because when someone asked "Can we shoot Batgirl?", someone answered "Sure, we can put any bitch in the costume."!!
> 
> You can have your Batgirl without me losing mine.


Addressing your last point, I agree that there should be room for 3 (or even more - Carrie, Helena, Nyssa, etc) Batgirls without eliminating Babs.

But that doesn't happen. Babs has been Batgirl for 7 years, and Steph and Cass have only been acknowledged as Batgirl three times in that period. So I don't think it's true to say that fans of Steph and Cass haven't lost their Batgirls.

Additionally, Oracle was not an afterthought. Ostrander and Yale very deliberately constructed her story. She wasn't a plan by Moore or editorial, I can agree with that, but her creation was very purposeful.




> I think they wanted to try and tap that Super Hero Girls audience. I can't blame them for trying honestly, and i give them credit for putting female creators on it. Doesn't seem that kind of audience is there though. Though maybe they have tapped it and we're just not see it in the floppies. I don't know. Still i don't think the isolation did any favors.


I wish DC would just make a solo Babs title based in the Super Hero Girls universe. I think it could be really fun, if they wrote for ALL ages (adults and kids) instead of just for kids. That would leave Babs in the main universe free for hopefully a bigger role in wider Gotham. And hopefully wider sales. I don't see DC giving up on the Batgirl title anytime soon, but SOMETHING needs to happen, because sales are not there for the current direction (or maybe just the creators.)

----------


## kjn

Does this remind you of anyone?

babs-buns.jpg

Should we try to add princess and general to Barbara's accomplishments, especially since both she and Leia has been senators?

----------


## kjn

> That’s not right. Oracle’s wheelchair isn’t what represented triumph, Oracle is what represented triump. It was her overcoming what happen to her and continuing to be a superhero regardless of the chair.


Comics are a visual medium. The chair is a constant reminder of what Barbara had to overcome to become the Oracle. It is also a refutation of the pattern of thought that leaders should be men with strong physiques. (Note: professor Xavier is much more coded as teacher than as leader, and because he is old, male, and has telepathic superpowers he does not carry the same narrative implications as Barbara as Oracle does.)

So yes, Barbara sitting confidently in her wheelchair is a triumph, both for her as a character, for her role in the DC universe, and for the readers. Due to the way comics history was shaped, her wheelchair carries gravitas. It shows her history in a way that I think few other objects in comic books ever have managed.

In my previous post, I mentioned that Barbara should be made a general. As the Oracle, she arguably was on the way to fill that role. She should have been groomed as the secretary-general of the Justice League, with a focus not on hacking (which has a tendency to become trite) but on safekeeping of secrets, information sharing, coordination, and planning.

----------


## Godlike13

Character’s don’t need a constant reminder of their tragedy. The chair being what represents and defines Oracle misses the point IMO.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Batgirl gets a new redesign FINALLY! https://www.cbr.com/batgirl-new-cost...ampaign=CBR-TW

----------


## HandofPrometheus



----------


## Frontier

> Batgirl gets a new redesign FINALLY! https://www.cbr.com/batgirl-new-cost...ampaign=CBR-TW


About time  :Big Grin: .

I remember saying before how much I liked the White Knight design for Batgirl, and lo and behold we have Sean Murphy redesigning Babs' new look  :Smile: .

I do kinda miss the cowl though  :Frown: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> About time .
> 
> I remember saying before how much I liked the White Knight design for Batgirl, and lo and behold we have Sean Murphy redesigning Babs' new look .
> 
> I do kinda miss the cowl though .


I miss the cowl too. Its weird because each redesign Babs shows more of her face

----------


## RedQueen

I really dig this this. I've sorely missed her silver age color scheme. I really dig her new symbol and the geometry of it all. 

I'm gonna miss the cowl too but at least she'll get some epic hair moments i guess. 

Definitely nice and sleek. I had problems with the Burnside one because artists could make it look too clunky and only thought it suited the original Burnside creative teams vision, and her armored one could get over complicated. This is the best of both worlds, with it paying homage to her history as well as giving her an update that I've been wanting for a while.

And on the bright side a longer cape i see.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I love the throwback to her old color scheme.

----------


## millernumber1

> 


I love the fact that they're using Batgirl Year One #9 as a reference, since I have that on my office wall right next to me right now.  :Smile: 

And moving back to Gotham is 100% what I've been hoping for! (Now if she could just start mentoring Steph and Cass, I'd be one happy Batgirl fan, and probably a buyer of the title, too!)

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Are the boots supposed to be different sized or is it just the art?   Regardless, I like it.   I hated the Burnside so much, the boots alone were impractical for what she does.

----------


## millernumber1

> Are the boots supposed to be different sized or is it just the art?   Regardless, I like it.   I hated the Burnside so much, the boots alone were impractical for what she does.


I think they are deliberately asymmetrical.

----------


## Frontier

> Are the boots supposed to be different sized or is it just the art?   Regardless, I like it.   I hated the Burnside so much, the boots alone were impractical for what she does.


I think the different sized boots was just Murphy experimenting with their height.

----------


## billee0918

> Are the boots supposed to be different sized or is it just the art?   Regardless, I like it.   I hated the Burnside so much, the boots alone were impractical for what she does.


I took it as the artist intentionally drawing one shirt and one long for comparison’s ale. Probably not part of the finals design.

----------


## Digifiend

> I think the different sized boots was just Murphy experimenting with their height.


Yeah, he went with the lower one.

----------


## billee0918

I really like this, I think! Looking forward to seeing more of it.
I loved Burnside at first, but now it feels a bit dated.

----------


## adrikito

> 


This is the first time IN YEARS that I like Batgirl Barbara costume. 

Goodbye Burnside costume.

----------


## DamianWayne1

> 


This looks awesome! Im really looking forward to seeing it in action! I actually like the ears, but I will admit to liking the cowl better. Glad they went with the shorter boots. Scotts run is really starting off on the right foot for me!

----------


## atomicbattery

She looks great.
This is certainly the cover to #27- its going to be awfully hard to choose if Murphy is the new cover artist and Josh Middleton is continuing with his beautiful variants.

The new storyline sounds very dark.
Scott says that it wont be too grim and I hope thats true.
And being back in Gotham apparently means- hopefully- much more Barbara and her dad.
There was so little of that in Burnside, and it really is one of the best relationships in comics (although- and I love the new look- if her dad encounters her in costume now and _still_ doesnt recognize her, then he either needs a new prescription for his glasses or is in *deep* denial).

----------


## HandofPrometheus

The best thing about this is that she doesn't look like a teenager.

----------


## Frontier

> She looks great.
> This is certainly the cover to #27- it’s going to be awfully hard to choose if Murphy is the new cover artist and Josh Middleton is continuing with his beautiful variants.
> 
> The new storyline sounds very dark.
> Scott says that it won’t be too grim and I hope that’s true.
> And being back in Gotham apparently means- hopefully- much more Barbara and her dad.
> There was so little of that in Burnside, and it really is one of the best relationships in comics (although- and I love the new look- if her dad encounters her in costume now and _still_ doesn’t recognize her, then he either needs a new prescription for his glasses or is in *deep* denial).


Hopefully being back in Gotham means more of Barbara and the Batfamily interacting again as well.



> The best thing about this is that she doesn't look like a teenager.


Or a cosplayer  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## RedQueen

I know there's validity in the science of the chip, but I'm not a fan of when they address it. It's been hacked and the science behind how it's presented makes me cautious when they bring up that narrative. I don't care for TKJ being canon, and seeing as she's not Oracle, I don't see the need for it to be there, unless they do address her PTSD or otherwise they're gloss over it like they have for the last few years.

Anywho it sounds like her arc is gonna have some meat to. Glad it's not a tech villain at least. It definitely sounds dark, though they've implied Babs won't be a dark character, I do look forward to the change in tone. I would love for them to experiment with some horror tropes. Since Burnside seems to be over, I hope the creative team will take more chances in the stories. Batgirl's stories have been too safe and too boring for the last few years, so I welcome a different approach and even maybe if they don't stick the landing I'll still look forward to something different. The variety for Batgirl content has been lacking so I welcome new approaches.

----------


## RedQueen

> Hopefully being back in Gotham means more of Barbara and the Batfamily interacting again as well.


That's what I'm looking forward to most. Burnside was just described as "hipster" but it was a lot of show and don't tell. Her being back in Gotham actually lets her have her history back.

----------


## Pohzee

Not big on the half-cowl.

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

I don’t like it. I think this sort of design works just fine for White Knight, and it is a step up from her Burnside outfit, but I hate the half cowl. If Barbara has to remain Batgirl, I wish they would bring back her New 52 outfit, or give her a design similar to Arkham Knight.

----------


## Godlike13

> 


I like it  :Cool: 

Though Burnside was always in Gotham still.

----------


## scary harpy

I love it.

----------


## KurtW95

I prefer having the top of the head and the ears covered with the hair going out the back, but this is a lot better than the last one.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Barbara uses the classic colors she's wearing now and then Cass can use the black and yellow varients and Steph uses the Purple. That works for me.

----------


## scary harpy

> Barbara uses the classic colors she's wearing now and then Cass can use the black and yellow varients and Steph uses the Purple. That works for me.


Works for me.

Cass could be called *Bat Noir*.

----------


## Frontier

> Barbara uses the classic colors she's wearing now and then Cass can use the black and yellow varients and Steph uses the Purple. That works for me.


I'd be down for that  :Smile: .

----------


## scary harpy

> Barbara uses the classic colors she's wearing now and then *Cass can use the black and yellow* varients and Steph uses the Purple. That works for me.


You mean this costume, right?

Batgirl_Harley_Quinn_001.jpg

----------


## BloodOps

I really like it

but there is no way Gordon doesn't know who she is lol, there is barely anything covering her face

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> You mean this costume, right?
> 
> Batgirl_Harley_Quinn_001.jpg


Yeah something along those lines. Where is this picture from by the way?

----------


## Restingvoice

It's a really good design but why would she take off the helmet that can protect her while fighting.
I still like New 52 costume best because it's fully armored like Batman

----------


## Armor of God

I like it a lot.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I love it.


Tbqh, I don't like it. The reason is that I kind of digged the purple look because it wasn't gloomy and also if she's gonna have her hair out, at least tie it up. It's more practical.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, I didn't see the other boot. Okay, now I don't like it.

----------


## KurtW95

I was fine with the colors of the last one. I just didn’t like the exposed ears and how it looked less like a superhero costume and more like hipster stylized cosplay or something designed on Tumblr. IMO, there are necesarry characteristics. It should be a feminine version of Batman’s costume with dark colors, a yellow bat insignia on the chest, yellow gloves, belt, and boots, and hair let out the back of the cowl that covers the ears and the neck. So, like I said, the redesign isn’t ideal, but a vast improvement IMO.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Oh, I didn't see the other boot. Okay, now I don't like it.


Its not both the short one and the long one she's wearing it's a comparison to see which to choose.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Its not both the short one and the long one she's wearing it's a comparison to see which to choose.


Oh okay. Still don't like it for the lack of helmet and pointless cape. You can't glide on that.

----------


## RedQueen

> Yeah something along those lines. Where is this picture from by the way?


It's actually Harley dressed up as Babs with a wig. It's from an issue in her original solo I'm pretty sure.

----------


## scary harpy

> Yeah something along those lines. Where is this picture from by the way?





> It's actually Harley dressed up as Babs with a wig. It's from an issue in her original solo I'm pretty sure.


Yeah, it is.

I really liked the costume; I thought it both striking and elegant. 

Something along those lines for Cass would be great!

----------


## RedQueen

Yeah I think that is a bit symbolic. Babs wore her original color scheme, had the her 60s purple back and and also her black and yellow get up. I think it's interesting the Batgirls have had that at one point. Cass had the black and yellow and I know steph was already associated with purple but it's also a color that is a natural for the Batgirl legacy costumes considering Babs had an iconic costume due to the 66 tv show.



I like the the Batgirl Year One tribute she's got going on now. In regards to the mask, maybe they could add a hood for protection for her ID? especially with Jim probably back in the picture. She can keep her domino mask and still get variations of hooded v unhooded.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tbqh, I don't like it. The reason is that I kind of digged the purple look because it wasn't gloomy and also if she's gonna have her hair out, at least tie it up. It's more practical.


How is this new one gloomy, though?




> Oh, I didn't see the other boot. Okay, now I don't like it.


Thinking about it - I think the different length boots were testing - I think they'll be the same length for the final costume.

----------


## Maxpower00044

I like it, but its not as good as the Burnside costume. That was Babs best look since Batgirl: Year One. It seems this costume is arc specific, too. So, Ill enjoy it while its here. 

https://www.polygon.com/comics/2018/...stume-redesign

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Batgirl gets a new redesign FINALLY! https://www.cbr.com/batgirl-new-cost...ampaign=CBR-TW


Well if it gets more people to read her series and the annoying Saturday morning cartoon tone is dropped I hope it works.

----------


## Maxpower00044

The current rebirth run has been consistently one of the best reads of any batbook, so... I just hope that continues.

And, for the record, I enjoyed Burnside, too. God for bid a book about a woman in her college years tries to cater to people in their college years, and not 35-60 year old men.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The current rebirth run has been consistently one of the best reads of any batbook, so... I just hope that continues.


Well you like not sure how many like dhow Barbara acted like a hipster.

----------


## sorboares

> I don’t like it. I think this sort of design works just fine for White Knight, and it is a step up from her Burnside outfit, but I hate the half cowl. If Barbara has to remain Batgirl, I wish they would bring back her New 52 outfit, or give her a design similar to Arkham Knight.


I agree give her the New 52 costume back she wore in Gail Simones series or Arkham Knights costume. Those 2 costumes are definitely the best and i wish we see them in her live action movie. 
I do love this new costume from the neck down but Batgirl not wearing a cowl is wrong. 
Batgirl needs her cowl, she looks better with it and it hides her identity much better especially so her Dad doesn't recognise her. 
Please give her a cowl and thank u for getting rid of the Burnside horrible costume.
I also love that Barbara doesn't look like a child and looks more grown up thats a huge positive.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Well you like not sure how many like dhow Barbara acted like a hipster.


A good majority of 21 year old women act like hipsters. At least im NY where I live. It makes sense that they would make a 21 Year Old character act like a 21 year old.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> A good majority of 21 year old women act like hipsters. At least im NY where I live. It makes sense that they would make a 21 Year Old character act like a 21 year old.


Yeah but it came off as rather cringy especially when she took a self-portrait in that Christmas story in the middle of a crisis.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Yeah but it came off as rather cringy especially when she took a self-portrait in that Christmas story in the middle of a crisis.


It's what young people do.

----------


## Vinsanity

> How is this new one gloomy, though?


The black I guess and the fact that it came from White Knight.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's what young people do.


But in the middle of a crisis? How does that make any sense?

----------


## atomicbattery

This is an interesting conversation.
Batgirl was supposed to be the flagship title in DC’s digital initiative, directed toward a younger audience that would never set foot in a comic book shop. It’s the reason Batgirl was moved to hipster Burnside and isolated from the main Batbooks (self contained stories that didn’t demand an awareness of goings-on in the larger Bat universe). 
We know that traditional book sales for Batgirl were weak, but we don’t know whether the digital strategy was successful since DC doesn’t disclose those numbers.
This new costume, and bringing Barbara back to Gotham, suggests to me that the digital emphasis is maybe being abandoned.

----------


## Maxpower00044

All I know is a lot of the young comic book fans/websites/podcasts that I follow, love the current Batgirl.  If those women enjoy it and have a character they can relate to, then I feel Burnside was a success. I happen to enjoy the stories myself, but even if I didn’t, I’d still be happy that another demographic has a character they can relate to. Not every character needs to be geared towards 30-60 year old males.

----------


## vasir12

> It's what young people do.


It is very much not what young people do.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> This is an interesting conversation.
> Batgirl was supposed to be the flagship title in DC’s digital initiative, directed toward a younger audience that would never set foot in a comic book shop. It’s the reason Batgirl was moved to hipster Burnside and isolated from the main Batbooks (self contained stories that didn’t demand an awareness of goings-on in the larger Bat universe). 
> We know that traditional book sales for Batgirl were weak, but we don’t know whether the digital strategy was successful since DC doesn’t disclose those numbers.
> This new costume, and bringing Barbara back to Gotham, suggests to me that the digital emphasis is maybe being abandoned.


That explains so much and I guess that means even the digital sale for it were no good so they decided to retool it for the direct market more based on the enw costume and darker premise.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> That explains so much and I guess that means even the digital sale for it were no good so they decided to retool it for the direct market more based on the enw costume and darker premise.


If you read the article I posted on the last page, it seems this “new” direction is temporary. Only reason she’s wearing this costume is because she left Burnside in a hurry and this is the only suit she had in Gotham.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> It is very much not what young people do.


It’s what a majority of the young (and old) people do.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If you read the article I posted on the last page, it seems this “new” direction is temporary. Only reason she’s wearing this costume is because she left Burnside in a hurry and this is the only suit she had in Gotham.


Well that's disappointing and very unwise as it did not do so well on both fronts.

----------


## billee0918

> If you read the article I posted on the last page, it seems this “new” direction is temporary. Only reason she’s wearing this costume is because she left Burnside in a hurry and this is the only suit she had in Gotham.


I suspect it will stick and become her regular costume...until the next redesign.

----------


## Vinsanity

> It is very much not what young people do.


According to my insta, my friends' instas, coworkers, university people and teammates.

It's what we do. We take shots and videos of a lot of things

----------


## Frontier

> It's a really good design but why would she take off the helmet that can protect her while fighting.
> I still like New 52 costume best because it's fully armored like Batman


Well, was it even really a helmet?



> Tbqh, I don't like it. The reason is that I kind of digged the purple look because it wasn't gloomy and also if she's gonna have her hair out, at least tie it up. It's more practical.


It's a bit of subdued colors compared to the purple but I think that does lend itself well to a Batfamily member and we also have her smiling in the promo art, so I don't think it's really "gloomy." 

That and, as cited in Scott's interview, it helps with stealth. 

Babs always has her hair exposed as Batgirl so I don't think this should be any less practical. It's probably not tied up because they want to showcase she's older then she was when she first became Batgirl with the ponytail. 



> I was fine with the colors of the last one. I just didn’t like the exposed ears and how it looked less like a superhero costume and more like hipster stylized cosplay or something designed on Tumblr. IMO, there are necesarry characteristics. *It should be a feminine version of Batman’s costume with dark colors, a yellow bat insignia on the chest, yellow gloves, belt, and boots, and hair let out the back of the cowl that covers the ears and the neck.* So, like I said, the redesign isn’t ideal, but a vast improvement IMO.


Well, most of that is covered with this design  :Smile: .




> And, for the record, I enjoyed Burnside, too. God for bid a book about a woman in her college years tries to cater to people in their college years, and not 35-60 year old men.


I personally think Babs, if she's going to be in the same age range and experience level of Dick and has been purported to have been Oracle at some point, should be well past her college years at this point unless it's a deliberate AU where she's younger (which I sometimes felt like Burnside should've been). 



> I like it, but it’s not as good as the Burnside costume. That was Babs’ best look since Batgirl: Year One. It seems this costume is arc specific, too. So, I’ll enjoy it while it’s here.


I thought that was her _Arkham Knight_ costume, personally. 



> All I know is a lot of the young comic book fans/websites/podcasts that I follow, love the current Batgirl.  If those women enjoy it and have a character they can relate to, then I feel Burnside was a success. I happen to enjoy the stories myself, but even if I didn’t, I’d still be happy that another demographic has a character they can relate to. Not every character needs to be geared towards 30-60 year old males.


I don't expect Scott to write towards 30-60 year old males with her run, but I foresee her bringing back a bit of an edge and seriousness to the title as it shifts away from Burnside. 



> If you read the article I posted on the last page, it seems this “new” direction is temporary. Only reason she’s wearing this costume is because she left Burnside in a hurry and this is the only suit she had in Gotham.


Poor Babs constantly being stuck with makeshift costumes  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . Anywho it sounds like her arc is gonna have some meat to. Glad it's not a tech villain at least. It definitely sounds dark, though they've implied Babs won't be a dark character, I do look forward to the change in tone. I would love for them to experiment with some horror tropes . . .


I just roll my eyes when I read about how they're planning to update Grotesque:


> . . . Created by Gail Simone and Ardian Syaf, Grotesque was originally, this sort of adrenaline junkie who liked to steal the finer things in life, according to Scott, but he got sent away to Blackgate. Now hes back and we learn that his time in prison has really changed him. 
> Changed might be a bit of an understatement here. Grotesques new M.O. is no longer just trying to steal fine art  he wants to make it. Brutally. Batgirl uncovers a string of grizzly art pieces constructed out of human body parts at the scenes of various crimes. 
> Things like Perseus with the Head of Medusa, but maybe its got a real persons head. Or a still life, but made up of human hands, Scott clarified with a grin, Hes still stealing things, of course, but its different now  hes escalating. And Batgirl has to stop him.


https://www.polygon.com/comics/2018/...stume-redesign

Didn't we just have a similar type of "artist" as villain in *Mother Panic*? (And does anybody remember Muse in Charles Soule's recent _Daredevil_ run within the past two years?)

----------


## Frontier

Personally, looking at the title and direction, I think Scott's run is shaping up to be what Batgirl Rebirth _should've_ been. 

Although with sales as they are now, I kinda feel like they should just relaunch the book at this point.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> I just roll my eyes when I read about how they're planning to update Grotesque:https://www.polygon.com/comics/2018/...stume-redesign
> 
> Didn't we just have a similar type of "artist" as villain in *Mother Panic*? (And does anybody remember Muse in Charles Soule's recent _Daredevil_ run within the past two years?)


 I remember Muse. Best new villain from either company in a long time.

----------


## Vinsanity

> But in the middle of a crisis? How does that make any sense?


You would honestly be surpsied.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Well, was it even really a helmet?
> 
> It's a bit of subdued colors compared to the purple but I think that does lend itself well to a Batfamily member and we also have her smiling in the promo art, so I don't think it's really "gloomy." 
> 
> That and, as cited in Scott's interview, it helps with stealth. 
> 
> Babs always has her hair exposed as Batgirl so I don't think this should be any less practical. It's probably not tied up because they want to showcase she's older then she was when she first became Batgirl with the ponytail. 
> 
> Well, most of that is covered with this design .
> ...


- Yeah, but DC made a decision to de-age her. I don’t see any problem with her current status and trying to identify with a specific demographic. I can see why it’s not for everyone. I also can see why this could’ve been assigned to one of the younger Batgirls pre-new 52. I don’t even usually go for this kinda stuff, but I thought it worked. 

- The Arkham Knight suit is good, I just really thought the Burnside suit had a great look to it. I like how the Burnside suit was less sexualized and she wasn’t drawn with a DD chest. 

- Yeah, I don’t think she will, either, but it seems most of the gripes about her de-ageing come from our 30-60 year old male demographic. I say ‘our’, because I’m 37.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Personally, looking at the title and direction, I think Scott's run is shaping up to be what Batgirl Rebirth _should've_ been. 
> 
> Although with sales as they are now, I kinda feel like they should just relaunch the book at this point.


To be fair, the Rebirth era was a little more serious than the DC You era. There’s some really good stories in the Rebirth era. Really great art, too.

----------


## millernumber1

Congrats to Babs for 100 pages! (Also, I was pretty sure the new costume would push her over that hump!)




> If you read the article I posted on the last page, it seems this “new” direction is temporary. Only reason she’s wearing this costume is because she left Burnside in a hurry and this is the only suit she had in Gotham.


I don't think that's what the article is saying. To me, the interview read like "This is the new direction, and here's the story justification we're creating for it." That is, after all, how the new costume for Burnside was created, too. But it all depends on what the sales and critical response to Scott's run are.




> All I know is a lot of the young comic book fans/websites/podcasts that I follow, love the current Batgirl.  If those women enjoy it and have a character they can relate to, then I feel Burnside was a success. I happen to enjoy the stories myself, but even if I didn’t, I’d still be happy that another demographic has a character they can relate to. Not every character needs to be geared towards 30-60 year old males.


I agree that we need lots of different types of readers - but we need buyers. The sales for Burnside (all runs) have not demonstrated that at least on a floppy level, there's a market that's going to support this trend. You can (and many do) argue that trades are supporting this - but that's why I keep bringing up a hope for DC Super Hero Girls Batgirl series - either single issue ongoing or OGNS - because I agree that that audience is out there, and deserves to be served - but the current series doesn't really seem to be reaching them at a buying level, at least on the individual issue level. And I haven't heard anything except "DC should eat those costs" as a response to the fact of the Batgirl sales are so low.




> The black I guess and the fact that it came from White Knight.


Hmm. The dominant colors I see are light grey, yellow, blue, and red from her hair. There's a bit of black, but it seems pretty light overall. And White Knight wasn't really that dark - some serious stuff happens, but Joker's not a mass murderer like he is in main continuity.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You would honestly be surpsied.


If ti's all the same to you if the goal was to appeal to a different type of audience what kind of message does that send to the readers about heroes also happy 100th pages of appreciating the woman who would not let a wheel chair bound her and keep her from fight crime.

----------


## Caivu

> I remember Muse. Best new villain from either company in a long time.


Also, Gala from Mother Panic.

----------


## 9th.

Gonna miss her Burnside suit  :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

> - Yeah, but the made a decision to de-age her. I don’t see any problem with her current status and trying to identify with a specific demographic. I can see why it’s not for everyone. I also can see why this could’ve been assigned to one of the younger Batgirls pre-new 52. I don’t even usually go for this kinda stuff, but I thought it worked.


I mean, DC de-aged everybody with the New 52, but Rebirth seems to have been walking back from trying to make every hero "young and hip," with Batgirl seemingly still left alone because of the popularity of Burnside. 

And it's also inconsistent when you have some writers re-establishing her history as Oracle while other writers have her as a big member of the Batfamily who can put Bruce in his place, which I don't think jives wit the Burnside direction.

I understand DC trying to appeal to a different demographic and I've liked a few Burnside stories, but I don't think it was the right decision to continue down this road with the main continuity Barbara Gordon. 



> - The Arkham Knight suit is good, I just really thought the Burnside suit had a great look to it. I like how the Burnside suit wasnless sexualized and she wasn’t drawn with a DD chest.


I think visually the Burnside outfit was nice and well-designed, I just don't think it fit her in the main continuity or as a fully-fledged Batgirl in the DCU. 

The new costume doesn't look very sexualized, even if it is back to being a traditional skintight spandex outfit, and Bab's still seems to have a modest figure per Murphy's art. But that's always going to be a dependent on the artist thing. 



> - Yeah, I don’t think she will, either, but it seems most of the gripes about her de-ageing come from our 30-60 year old male demographic. I say ‘our’, because I’m 37.


Well, I'm in my early 20's, but I have also had various complaints about how DC has been handling Babs the past few years, and the de-aging has definitely been one of them. 



> Congrats to Babs for 100 pages! (Also, I was pretty sure the new costume would push her over that hump!)


New costumes tend to inspire a lot of discussion  :Smile: .

----------


## billee0918

From artist Travis Mercer, via Twitter, his take on the new look

559328B7-D0B9-47B9-90AE-111972092B6D.jpg

----------


## sorboares

Great art BUT she still needs a full cowl

----------


## Frontier

> From artist Travis Mercer, via Twitter, his take on the new look
> 
> 559328B7-D0B9-47B9-90AE-111972092B6D.jpg


Kinda looks like military gear there...

----------


## billee0918

> Great art BUT she still needs a full cowl


I think I’d prefer full cowl too, but I also kinda like this, especially in this pic.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by billee0918
> 
> 
> From artist Travis Mercer, via Twitter, his take on the new look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda looks like military gear there...


Are the trying to make her look like Batwoman's sidekick or something?

----------


## Frontier

> Great art BUT she still needs a full cowl


Honestly, if anything is inevitable with Batgirl's costume, it's probably the return of the cowl.

----------


## sorboares

> Honestly, if anything is inevitable with Batgirl's costume, it's probably the return of the cowl.


I really hope so coz to me batgirl needs her cowl and I really love the rest of this updated costume.

----------


## Godlike13

Ive was behind a week and just caught up on last weeks issue. Not bad, the art was awesome and im always a sucker for moments between Babs and her Dad.

----------


## millernumber1

Babs had a pretty cool role in this week's Nightwing - and there was a pretty fun parallel between Ben Oliver's variant for Nightwing #46 and Joshua Middleton's variant for Batgirl #24:

----------


## Rac7d*

https://screenrant.com/margot-robbie...ds-prey-movie/

----------


## atomicbattery

After the disappointment of the Joss Whedon mess, it’s great to see that Barbara may still be headed to the big screen.

Also- those Nightwing and Batgirl covers are beautiful. Would love to see them put together.

----------


## sorboares

I hope Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is in Birds of Prey movie and than we also get the Batgirl movie too.

----------


## kjn

I think it's a pity that _Birds of Prey_ has become tied to Harley Quinn. While Harley is a great character, her backstory pales in comparison to Barbara Gordon's story as Batgirl and Oracle. And if DC wants the darker, grittier, more "realistic" stories, then "Oracle: Year One" is right there.

----------


## Godlike13

If they were to introduce Oracle, they could theoretically introduce her in Suicide Squad, and from there go into BoP.

But ya, BoP being a Harley Quinn movie kind of a sucks. Couldn’t they call it something else. You just know comics will follow suit, and then that’s what BoP will be known as from then on. What’s next, the Outsiders staring the Joker.

----------


## kjn

> If they were to introduce Oracle, they could theoretically introduce her in Suicide Squad, and from there go into BoP.
> 
> But ya, BoP being a Harley Quinn movie kind of a sucks. Couldn’t they call it something else. You just know comics will follow suit, and then that’s what BoP will be known as from then on. What’s next, the Outsiders staring the Joker.


I think it's partly because of the headless chicken thing still going on over at DC: Harley was the only popular character they got out of their earlier DCEU mess outside of Wonder Woman, and thus she was connected to whatever movie project that anyone wanted to push.

And while Oracle is connected to Suicide Squad, the connection isn't that strong, it's more of a quirk of that being the title that Ostrander and Yale were writing. It's far more important to establish her as having been Batgirl. And while Harley Quinn and Oracle can be in the same movie, it can be tonally challenging to do so.

Anyway, if I were DC, I'd look to get a good screenwriter to draft a Barbara Gordon trilogy, roughly being "Batgirl: Year One", "Oracle: Year One", and "Birds of Prey". The only guy I would trust with that would be Ostrander.

----------


## Carabas

> If they were to introduce Oracle, they could theoretically introduce her in Suicide Squad, and from there go into BoP.
> 
> But ya, BoP being a Harley Quinn movie kind of a sucks. Couldn’t they call it something else. You just know comics will follow suit, and then that’s what BoP will be known as from then on. What’s next, the Outsiders staring the Joker.


I don't know.
When was the last time comics followed the movies on something non-cosmetic like a costume at DC?

----------


## Lazurus33

Batgirl #25 pushed back 3 weeks

https://www.newsarama.com/40788-batg...k-3-weeks.html

----------


## RedQueen

> Batgirl #25 pushed back 3 weeks
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40788-batg...k-3-weeks.html


I understand stuff being pushed back but for month? Ughhh. Like I'm still looking forward to the issue, but it's still is a bit annoying when it was what I was looking forward to with July releases.

----------


## atomicbattery

I was counting the days for this!
The Batgirl vs March Harriet story by Paul Dini, drawn by Emanuela Lupacchino!
Oh well- just add 21 to my count

----------


## Robotman

No Babs in the Birds of Prey movie. Freaking ridiculous.

----------


## dietrich

> No Babs in the Birds of Prey movie. Freaking ridiculous.


Ikr. Harley Quinn taking the place of Oracle!! It's madness.

----------


## RedQueen

> Ikr. Harley Quinn taking the place of Oracle!! It's madness.


It's a Harley Quinn world and we're all just living in it. 

But for real, omitting one of the founders of BoP and Cassandra Cain's mother figure in one swoop? WOW.

----------


## Godlike13

Why couldn’t they just come up with another name  :Frown: .

----------


## yohyoi

Harley replacing Babs... DC please don't call the movie Birds of Prey. What about Harley Girl Gang?

----------


## sorboares

Hope Cassandra Cain is Orphan in the Birds Of Prey movie so there is still hope for Barbara as Batgirl. Unless they do new 52 and show her as Oracle n then she has her operation and becomes Batgirl again. I hope the Batgirl movie isnt an origin coz I want 2 c Barbara Gordon as Batgirl in the current timeline NOT just a flashback. 
Barbara Gordon deserves to be Batgirl on the big screen coz she has never been in a live action movie.

----------


## Frontier

Setting aside the whole Batgirl/Oracle thing, I really don't know if I care for the idea of a Birds of Prey movie with Cassandra Cain that doesn't have Cass. 

But hopefully she will be in it...

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by Lazurus33
> 
> 
> Batgirl #25 pushed back 3 weeks
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40788-batg...k-3-weeks.html
> 
> 
> I understand stuff being pushed back but for month? Ughhh. Like I'm still looking forward to the issue, but it's still is a bit annoying when it was what I was looking forward to with July releases.


I'm wondering if the hold-up involves the back-up feature or not.
After all, at last check, issue #26 is still scheduled for August 22nd release and the Annual #2 is still currently due out August 29th.
(So that would be a new _Batgirl_ issue three weeks in a row!)  :Cool: 





> Why couldnt they just come up with another name .


You mean like "*Gotham City Sirens*"?

----------


## atomicbattery

> Hope Cassandra Cain is Orphan in the Birds Of Prey movie so there is still hope for Barbara as Batgirl. Unless they do new 52 and show her as Oracle n then she has her operation and becomes Batgirl again. I hope the Batgirl movie isnt an origin coz I want 2 c Barbara Gordon as Batgirl in the current timeline NOT just a flashback. 
> Barbara Gordon deserves to be Batgirl on the big screen coz she has never been in a live action movie.


Yes to all of this.

Looking at the timeline, it was announced that Joss Whedon had signed up to make ‘Batgirl’ in March of last year.
If he’d declined WB/DC’s plea to first help out on their troubled Justice League production, and if his ex-wife hadn’t written that brutal essay, ‘Batgirl’ would likely be in post-production right now, sharing the spotlight with ‘Shazam’ and ‘Aquaman’ this Saturday in Hall H at San Diego.

I know that Whedon has become a divisive figure- with DC fans after Justice League and the broader public following the accusations by his former wife- but I still think that Buffy was great and Avengers very good, and that he would have delivered a great ‘Batgirl’.

Now, with word that Barbara is not in the Harley Girl Gang Movie, but Cass _is_, and that the same writer has been signed to write a new Batgirl script, it doesn’t sound good.

It’s too bad. A great character with over a fifty year history, it would be great to see her on the big screen.

----------


## Rac7d*

this is an injustice

----------


## sorboares

> Yes to all of this.
> 
> Looking at the timeline, it was announced that Joss Whedon had signed up to make ‘Batgirl’ in March of last year.
> If he’d declined WB/DC’s plea to first help out on their troubled Justice League production, and if his ex-wife hadn’t written that brutal essay, ‘Batgirl’ would likely be in post-production right now, sharing the spotlight with ‘Shazam’ and ‘Aquaman’ this Saturday in Hall H at San Diego.
> 
> I know that Whedon has become a divisive figure- with DC fans after Justice League and the broader public following the accusations by his former wife- but I still think that Buffy was great and Avengers very good, and that he would have delivered a great ‘Batgirl’.
> 
> Now, with word that Barbara is not in the Harley Girl Gang Movie, but Cass _is_, and that the same writer has been signed to write a new Batgirl script, it doesn’t sound good.
> 
> It’s too bad. A great character with over a fifty year history, it would be great to see her on the big screen.


I still have some hope for Barbara as Batgirl on the big screen but it is diminishing everytime a new report comes out about Birds of Prey. 
Barbara Gordon deserves her chance to shine on the big screen as Batgirl with all the history she has and not in just a flashback.  I want her In  the current time line so she can appear in other movies with other hero's. 
Supergirl has a movie and a TV series so babsgirl is way over due to star in her own movie and Batfamily movies.  
On another note it's very exciting Batwoman it receiving her own live action TV series.

----------


## TheSupernaut

If Babs doesn't make it in, you can probably blame either Margot or Matt Reeves. Unless this movie is Birds if Prey in name only. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Huntress and Black Canary know eachother before becoming teammates?

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I’m pretty pissed that Barbara is getting kicked out of her own team for the movie. The only reason I’ll be okay with it is if it’s because she’s still getting her own solo film.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If Babs doesn't make it in, you can probably blame either Margot or Matt Reeves. Unless this movie is Birds if Prey in name only. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Huntress and Black Canary know eachother before becoming teammates?


Nope Babs is the link
she also and important figure in cassandra like al the pieces haave come together without the frame

----------


## billee0918

So the just announced The Bat-Family Multi-Part Statue set features Barbara in her new costume!

C38BCF35-85F8-49E2-8F2C-E7C4C498FFC0.jpg

D7CFCA61-EE83-49D9-8EAA-D0B3415437B2.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

> So the just announced The Bat-Family Multi-Part Statue set features Barbara in her new costume!
> 
> C38BCF35-85F8-49E2-8F2C-E7C4C498FFC0.jpg
> 
> D7CFCA61-EE83-49D9-8EAA-D0B3415437B2.jpg



Tim has been disowned I see

----------


## Godlike13

Even if Babs is Batgirl in her own movie, it still really upsets me that Oracle isn't in a BOP movie, and instead the Jokers hot blonde ex girlfriend in short shorts is at the head. All while bragging about how diverse its going to be. This is what makes it so hard to support Oracle.

----------


## billee0918

> Tim has been disowned I see


I would have liked to see Kate too

----------


## Frontier

> Even if Babs is Batgirl in her own movie, it still really upsets me that Oracle isn't in a BOP movie, and instead the Jokers hot blonde ex girlfriend in short shorts is at the head. All while bragging about how diverse its going to be. This is what makes it so hard to support Oracle.


I blame Harley more then I blame Oracle, honestly.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I would have liked to see Kate too


she was always extended never inner circle

----------


## RedQueen

> So the just announced The Bat-Family Multi-Part Statue set features Barbara in her new costume!
> 
> C38BCF35-85F8-49E2-8F2C-E7C4C498FFC0.jpg
> 
> D7CFCA61-EE83-49D9-8EAA-D0B3415437B2.jpg


Jason looks super naked. I know pre sculpt but it's amusing.

Maybe it's just the sculpt but that looks like a Marvel heroine's costume, no one in particular but just a vibe I get from the statue.

It's very cool to see in action. I hope to see more merch of the new suit.

----------


## sorboares

> Jason looks super naked. I know pre sculpt but it's amusing.
> 
> Maybe it's just the sculpt but that looks like a Marvel heroine's costume, no one in particular but just a vibe I get from the statue.
> 
> It's very cool to see in action. I hope to see more merch of the new suit.



Batgirl needs a cowl...

----------


## RedQueen

_"Johns then spoke about his Three Jokers mini series with Jason Fabok which he calls “a grounded, emotional story about the mystery of the Joker, and it will focus on Bruce, Barbara and Jason,” Johns said, and explained that though the book will be on the Black Label imprint, it will still have elements that take place in the main DC Universe continuity."_

as per the CBR report, looks like Babs will get a role in the 3 Jokers storyline.

----------


## Frontier

> _"Johns then spoke about his Three Jokers mini series with Jason Fabok which he calls “a grounded, emotional story about the mystery of the Joker, and it will focus on Bruce, Barbara and Jason,” Johns said, and explained that though the book will be on the Black Label imprint, it will still have elements that take place in the main DC Universe continuity."_
> 
> as per the CBR report, looks like Babs will get a role in the 3 Jokers storyline.


I think it makes sense that the Batfamily members most effected by the Joker would be involved in this story. 

I hope they're all used well here.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m hoping it only focus on the three. If the idea is for an emotional rollcoaster, it serves best to keep it contained and not a family event where everyone needs a moment.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it makes sense that the Batfamily members most effected by the Joker would be involved in this story. 
> 
> I hope they're all used well here.


I don't read a ton of Johns - how does he usually write Babs? Has ever really done so?

----------


## Frontier

> I don't read a ton of Johns - how does he usually write Babs? Has ever really done so?


I don't think there's really enough to gauge...I think he wrote her and Jim together a little at the beginning of _Thrones of Atlantis_, he wrote Booster trying to prevent her _Killing Joke_ shooting, and he wanted to write an All-Star Batgirl book at some point.

She was also in _Batman: Earth One_ (at least the first volume).

At the very least he seems pretty interested in her as a character.

----------


## yohyoi

> So the just announced The Bat-Family Multi-Part Statue set features Barbara in her new costume!
> 
> C38BCF35-85F8-49E2-8F2C-E7C4C498FFC0.jpg
> 
> D7CFCA61-EE83-49D9-8EAA-D0B3415437B2.jpg


That Nightwing bulge... No wonder they call him Dick.

----------


## nonsense man

I never cared about barbra being paralyzed or not to me her become oracle is about leaving the roost like dick did becoming nightwing that is how I always seen it.  So her being in a wheelchair or not does not matter as long as she evolves and becomes oracle for some reason or another.

----------


## Frontier

Babs Batgirl in the upcoming _DC Super Hero Girls_ cartoon:

----------


## Starter Set

Sleuth? Now that's a rare word. (at least from my non-native English speaker perspective lol)

Everyday, a new thing to learn. Everyday.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Sleuth? Now that's a rare word. (at least from my non-native English speaker perspective lol)


It was a lot more common with the members of the Batfamily prior to *Flashpoint* . . .

----------


## kjn

I've mostly heard it used about journalists, especially investigative journalists. I'm not sure the word really fits with Babs, or with the words used to characterise her in the above image.

----------


## Frontier

I think by "sleuth," they mean more detective, like Sherlock Holmes.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Babs Batgirl in the upcoming _DC Super Hero Girls_ cartoon:


Tumblr will love it

----------


## atomicbattery

This Batgirl from Lauren Faust’s new DC Super Hero Girls cartoon will star in the ‘The Late Batsby’ short that will play before ‘Teen Titans Go! To the Movies’.

The short is about Barbara trying to sneak out of the house to fight crime while her dad is still awake.

So, Barbara is out of Harley’s Girl Gang Movie, but she’ll be sneaking into theaters this weekend.

----------


## millernumber1

> This Batgirl from Lauren Faust’s new DC Super Hero Girls cartoon will star in the ‘The Late Batsby’ short that will play before ‘Teen Titans Go! To the Movies’.
> 
> The short is about Barbara trying to sneak out of the house to fight crime while her dad is still awake.


I really liked the short. It's basically a shot for shot remake of this:




but with much better design, added gags, and (in my opinion) a stronger cast.

In other news, Joshua Middleton continues to kill it with his Batgirl variants. Here's #26:



https://www.midtowncomics.com/store/dp.asp?PRID=1750815

----------


## Vinsanity

> I really liked the short. It's basically a shot for shot remake of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but with much better design, added gags, and (in my opinion) a stronger cast.
> 
> In other news, Joshua Middleton continues to kill it with his Batgirl variants. Here's #26:
> 
> ...



ohhh that's nice

----------


## Frontier

> I really liked the short. It's basically a shot for shot remake of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but with much better design, added gags, and (in my opinion) a stronger cast.
> 
> In other news, Joshua Middleton continues to kill it with his Batgirl variants. Here's #26:
> 
> ...


I love the part where Ace just randomly shows up out-of-nowhere  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(And Batgirl saying "Gee-Willikers" non-ironically, which I never thought I would ever hear in a modern cartoon). 

That Middleton cover almost feels like a sendoff to the Burnside era/costume.

----------


## millernumber1

> That Middleton cover almost feels like a sendoff to the Burnside era/costume.


I love the way Middleton draws it. But I wish he'd start drawing the new one. Unless it's only temporary (which would be odd - why would they hire one of their top artists to redesign a temporary costume?)

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, poor Babs. I was gonna make a new thread for her but then i realized her appreciation thread wasn't big enough to get cut.

----------


## Rac7d*

Will she be the maid of honor for Dinah at her wedding

----------


## Godlike13

She was before.

----------


## millernumber1

> Will she be the maid of honor for Dinah at her wedding


Are Dinah and Ollie engaged again?

----------


## sorboares

This is a new article/interview about Batgirl with new writer MAIRGHREAD SCOTT.
Sounds very promising, I'm so glad Burnside is behind Babs and now we will be getting a more darker serious Batgirl again.  I just hope Batgirl will get her cowl back ASAP!
https://nerdist.com/batgirl-mairghre...arbara-gordon/

----------


## sorboares

This is a new article/interview about Batgirl with new writer MAIRGHREAD SCOTT.
Sounds very promising, I'm so glad Burnside is behind Babs and now we will be getting a more darker serious Batgirl again.  I just hope Batgirl will get her cowl back ASAP!
https://nerdist.com/batgirl-mairghre...arbara-gordon/

----------


## Vinsanity

> This is a new article/interview about Batgirl with new writer MAIRGHREAD SCOTT.
> Sounds very promising, I'm so glad Burnside is behind Babs and now we will be getting a more darker serious Batgirl again.  I just hope Batgirl will get her cowl back ASAP!
> https://nerdist.com/batgirl-mairghre...arbara-gordon/


I disagree. I liked Burnside Babs. 

It was a nice, different, lighter tone that worked well. 

I'll still read Batgirl to give it a go.

----------


## kjn

Another side of Barbara Gordon we should not forget: the teacher and mentor.
Babs+Cassandra.jpg

----------


## Miles To Go

> I disagree. I liked Burnside Babs. 
> 
> It was a nice, different, lighter tone that worked well.


Babs was never in-character during the Burnside era. Far too youthful and the stories were marketed towards a hipster audience, it was too jarring to enjoy or take with any degree of seriousness. 

I don't think going in a darker direction will help Babs much either because she simply isn't the same Babs she was pre-flashpoint.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Babs was never in-character during the Burnside era. Far too youthful and the stories were marketed towards a hipster audience, it was too jarring to enjoy or take with any degree of seriousness. 
> 
> I don't think going in a darker direction will help Babs much either because she simply isn't the same Babs she was pre-flashpoint.


Yeah but a character can be a little different. That's why I like Burnside. It's a different tone. Nothing wrong about being a hipster.

----------


## kjn

> Yeah but a character can be a little different. That's why I like Burnside. It's a different tone. Nothing wrong about being a hipster.


The tone's not the issue. The issue a lot of posters have expressed about Burnside Babs is that she is so far from all earlier depictions of her, and that's going back to Barbara Gordon's first appearances in the comic, where she already had finished school and started a successful civilian career. Then she got shot by the Joker, picked up her pieces of her life and built a role within the superhero community that included her being a peer to every single one of the Justice League. She created and managed her own superhero team.

All that history, personality, and lived experience is missing from Burnside Babs.

----------


## Frontier

> The tone's not the issue. The issue a lot of posters have expressed about Burnside Babs is that she is so far from all earlier depictions of her, and that's going back to Barbara Gordon's first appearances in the comic, where she already had finished school and started a successful civilian career. Then she got shot by the Joker, picked up her pieces of her life and built a role within the superhero community that included her being a peer to every single one of the Justice League. She created and managed her own superhero team.
> 
> All that history, personality, and lived experience is missing from Burnside Babs.


I think tone was kind of the issue to some degree, since the stories seemed to be skewing more towards a kind of younger-skewing style and tone that seemed out-of-place with the other Bat-Books.

I mean, Steph's Batgirl was kind of a Millennial Batgirl but (and I think Millernumber agrees with me on this) her stories had more weight and didn't feel as out-of-place as the Burnside Batgirl does.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think tone was kind of the issue to some degree, since the stories seemed to be skewing more towards a kind of younger-skewing style and tone that seemed out-of-place with the other Bat-Books.
> 
> I mean, Steph's Batgirl was kind of a Millennial Batgirl but (and I think Millernumber agrees with me on this) her stories had more weight and didn't feel as out-of-place as the Burnside Batgirl does.


I agree 100% with you.  :Smile: 

I think the problem isn't being all-ages, or the costume. I think the problem is the stories don't inspire or engage, they just sort of exist pleasantly on a very shallow level, while Babs as Batgirl and Oracle is capable of so much more. I always ask this of fans of Burnside, and I still haven't quite been able to understand - what is iconic or meaningful about the Burnside run (including Larson's)? What villains, conflicts, or character development has occurred that will stick with Babs?

----------


## Frontier

> I agree 100% with you. 
> 
> I think the problem isn't being all-ages, or the costume. I think the problem is the stories don't inspire or engage, they just sort of exist pleasantly on a very shallow level, while Babs as Batgirl and Oracle is capable of so much more. I always ask this of fans of Burnside, and I still haven't quite been able to understand - what is iconic or meaningful about the Burnside run (including Larson's)? What villains, conflicts, or character development has occurred that will stick with Babs?


Really, it's probably just the costume when you think about it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Really, it's probably just the costume when you think about it.


That's what I'm saying. And the costume is sadly too attached to the shallowness of the two runs attached to it at this point. In 10 years, I'll be someone will pull it back out and do a great retro run, like Batgirl Year One, but for now...I think we need a new start and new look for Babs to really get the following she deserves.

----------


## Frontier

> That's what I'm saying. And the costume is sadly too attached to the shallowness of the two runs attached to it at this point. In 10 years, I'll be someone will pull it back out and do a great retro run, like Batgirl Year One, but for now...I think we need a new start and new look for Babs to really get the following she deserves.


Personally the only way I see the Burnside suit surviving is as a "prototype" suit, although I'd be lying if I said my own bias didn't effect my opinion there.

----------


## Godlike13

Burside become more all ages like with Larson, but the original run wasnt really all ages despite the cartoony villains.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yea, they opened with Barbara woke up pantsless with a hangover after a night making out drunk with a shirtless guy, and people got angry because "my Babs is not a slut"

----------


## millernumber1

> Yea, they opened with Barbara woke up pantsless with a hangover after a night making out drunk with a shirtless guy, and people got angry because "my Babs is not a slut"


I mean, my biggest problem was the fact that she was actually blackout drunk. But even without the shirtless guy, her love life was a real mess in the Burnside run, until she started dating Batwing (poor Luke). It seems like that first issue, even though it's the creative team's favorite, just had some real misjudgements.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I mean, my biggest problem was the fact that *she was actually blackout drunk. But even without the shirtless guy, her love life was a real mess in the Burnside run, until she started dating Batwing (poor Luke).* It seems like that first issue, even though it's the creative team's favorite, just had some real misjudgements.


So basically like real life.

That's what I liked about the run. Compared to other runs in different books, it seemed more like what actually more or less happens in life (minus the crime fighting stuff)

----------


## millernumber1

> So basically like real life.
> 
> That's what I liked about the run. Compared to other runs in different books, it seemed more like what actually more or less happens in life (minus the crime fighting stuff)


Fair enough. I prefer aspirational books, rather than descriptive books. But I'm definitely not the target audience for this run. I just want to be, since I love Babs in many iterations.

----------


## Frontier

> So basically like real life.
> 
> That's what I liked about the run. Compared to other runs in different books, it seemed more like what actually more or less happens in life (minus the crime fighting stuff)


I don't think it's unrealistic for people in the age group they were depicting Babs as in that book, but I also don't think it was a very sensible character moment for Barbara Gordon.

----------


## kjn

> So basically like real life.
> 
> That's what I liked about the run. Compared to other runs in different books, it seemed more like what actually more or less happens in life (minus the crime fighting stuff)


Except it was out of character with the Barbara Gordon that had _ever_ been presented earlier, and was part of an ongoing erasure of the experience that she had amassed as both Batgirl and Oracle (that IMO started right after Simone left the New52 Batgirl).

----------


## Godlike13

That was the point though. To try to present the character differently then what we have seen with them before. They weren’t presenting a 30 year old Oracle anymore, but a 21 year old modern day Batgirl.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I don't think it's unrealistic for people in the age group they were depicting Babs as in that book, but I also don't think it was a very sensible character moment for Barbara Gordon.


Drinking a lot and hooking up with randoms ain't a sensible thing by any means. The amount of money I spent on those nights....




> Except it was out of character with the Barbara Gordon that had _ever_ been presented earlier, and was part of an ongoing erasure of the experience that she had amassed as both Batgirl and Oracle (that IMO started right after Simone left the New52 Batgirl).


Hey doesn't mean a character can't have changes. Didn't erase what she did beforehand, it's just a different style. 




> Fair enough. I prefer aspirational books, rather than descriptive books. But I'm definitely not the target audience for this run. I just want to be, since I love Babs in many iterations.


That's perfectly fair. 

I am not a fan of the dark, grim Batgirl but as long as people are enjoying stuff, it's cool.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's perfectly fair. 
> 
> I am not a fan of the dark, grim Batgirl but as long as people are enjoying stuff, it's cool.


I'm not advocating a return to Simone's type of Batgirl. My favorite Babs Batgirl is Year One - I don't mind a light tone, but I don't think that necessarily means Babs can't be more sensible and mature.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'm not advocating a return to Simone's type of Batgirl. My favorite Babs Batgirl is Year One - I don't mind a light tone, but I don't think that necessarily means Babs can't be more sensible and mature.


Oh I never said you were. I'm just saying that there are so many different versions of a character you can get. As long as the character does well, even if it doesn't suit my tastes, I'm cool with if since others can enjoy it.

On the sensible and mature part, alcohol makes you do some weird things. I think I used to have a road sign somewhere in my house.

----------


## Frontier

> Drinking a lot and hooking up with randoms ain't a sensible thing by any means. The amount of money I spent on those nights...


Which is why I have a hard time seeing Barbara Gordon partaking in it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(I mean, if Gordon's a teetotaler, and Bruce likely is, I'd be surprised if she isn't).

----------


## RedQueen

One thing I did observe is that both Dick and Babs have the same view of relationships. I mean Dick has quite a few love interests but he had intentions to pursue something deeper, and  with Babs she doesn't waste her time with relationships that don't go anywhere. Which is why Burnside annoyed me. I don't mind the amount of love interests to a degree, but it was the lack of quality of love interests. I can't recall anyone's name except Luke and that's because he's previously established as his own character. If I can't remember their names then I don't think the writers served Barbara's story. I'm a big fan of comicbook romance, which is why I've been attached to the more stable relationships of Arthur and Mera and more recently Dinah and Ollie in Percy's run, so to see that trope in my favorite genre being underdeveloped is a bit deflating.

Also I don't mind Babs drinking or just being a bit more carefree in general, but I need to recognize her when they do so. I don't what to retrain my perspective of character to suit dull writing.

Anyways, Scott is off to a good start. I look forward to more Jim and more family drama. I'm also interested to see the new costume in action.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Which is why I have a hard time seeing Barbara Gordon partaking in it .
> 
> (I mean, if Gordon's a teetotaler, and Bruce likely is, I'd be surprised if she isn't).


Friends can be very persuasive.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh I never said you were. I'm just saying that there are so many different versions of a character you can get. As long as the character does well, even if it doesn't suit my tastes, I'm cool with if since others can enjoy it.
> 
> On the sensible and mature part, alcohol makes you do some weird things. I think I used to have a road sign somewhere in my house.


There are definitely many versions of characters. My argument with regards to Burnside is, except for the relaunches (first arc or so), the concept hasn't really held enough of an audience to convince me that Babs is doing well in that iteration.




> Friends can be very persuasive.


I've always seen Babs as the influencer/persuader in her group of friends, rather than the reverse. I mean, one of my favorite plotlines in Birds of Prey, where Babs tries to control Helena's life and convince her that killing is wrong, is all about her being very much an initiator, to the point of slipping into manipulation. And then her redemption and healing of her relationship with Helena is so great.

----------


## billee0918

From the November solicitations...love this!

93B869E8-059D-4383-A8E6-166217C44450.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, Murphy is great.

----------


## oasis1313

> From the November solicitations...love this!
> 
> 93B869E8-059D-4383-A8E6-166217C44450.jpg


Hey, she's lost those stupid Doc Martens booties!  Great!

----------


## RedQueen

> From the November solicitations...love this!
> 
> Attachment 69611


Looks good. I'm glad to see the new costume in motion. Looks pretty dynamic. 

I hope Murphy and Middleton remain on Batgirl covers and variants.

----------


## sorboares

Cool cover but please how could James Gordon not recognize his own daughter with that silly eye mask. It hides nothing. She needs her proper cowl back ASAP. Im so glad she is out of her Burnside costume as this new one is much better but please oh please give her, her cowl back.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Cool cover but please how could James Gordon not recognize his own daughter with that silly eye mask. It hides nothing. She needs her proper cowl back


Comic book logic.

----------


## Carabas

> Cool cover but please how could James Gordon not recognize his own daughter with that silly eye mask. It hides nothing. She needs her proper cowl back ASAP. Im so glad she is out of her Burnside costume as this new one is much better but please oh please give her, her cowl back.


It's not as if the classic Batgirl cowl hides all that much... It basically just covers her forehead.

----------


## Godlike13

Meh, Gordan knows...

----------


## sorboares

> It's not as if the classic Batgirl cowl hides all that much... It basically just covers her forehead.


It definitely covers more than this new design which is silly. No protection on her head,  doesn't help hide her identity at all. Its just too immature for Barbara Gordon.

----------


## disillusion386

Isn't the "new" costume just a slight redesign of her original Batgirl costume from the flashback scenes in the Summer of Lies arc? I'm curious what reason Scott will use to explain the change.

----------


## Carabas

> It definitely covers more than this new design which is silly.


Barely.


 




> No protection on her head...


Say what now?




> Its just too immature for Barbara Gordon.


How is it any kind of indication of maturity or immaturity?

Nevermind that she is younger than she has ever been.

----------


## Frontier

> From the November solicitations...love this!
> 
> Attachment 69611


Loving the new costume. 

I wonder if this is an indication that the GCPD will be setting their sights on Batgirl at the end of this arc? 



> Cool cover but please how could James Gordon not recognize his own daughter with that silly eye mask. It hides nothing. She needs her proper cowl back ASAP. Im so glad she is out of her Burnside costume as this new one is much better but please oh please give her, her cowl back.


I mean, comic book logic means domino masks are an effective way of hiding one's identity...

But I agree with Godlike that Gordon knows already, although it'll be interesting if Scott plays with that. 



> Barely.


Definitely covers more then a domino mask does.  



> Nevermind that she is younger than she has ever been.


Hopefully Scott re-establishes a more mature Batgirl.

----------


## Carabas

> Hopefully Scott re-establishes a more mature Batgirl.


And so say we all...

----------


## Vinsanity

> And so say we all...


As I said several times, I like hipster Batgirl. 

I guess I'm more of hipster than I thought. :O

----------


## sorboares

> It's not as if the classic Batgirl cowl hides all that much... It basically just covers her forehead.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]69905[/ATTACH

Batgirls cowl did more than just cover her forehead. Its covered alot of her face, her forehead, the top of her head, half the back of her head, her neck and ears. 
So she had heaps more protection and heaps more to cover her identity.

----------


## Carabas

> Batgirls cowl did more than just cover her forehead. Its covered alot of her face, her forehead, the top of her head, half the back of her head, her neck and ears. 
> So she had heaps more protection and heaps more to cover her identity.


I'm not seeing how covering her ears and neck and such is going to do a lot to hide her identity from her father.

And the masks are not intended for protection. They used to be made out of cloth.

----------


## Miles To Go

Batgirl#26 preview...bye bye Burnside outfit!



https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/08...-costume-cape/

----------


## sorboares

> Batgirl#26 preview...bye bye Burnside outfit!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/08...-costume-cape/



The art is so good now, im actually enjoying Batgirl again finally after so long. Im so happy to see the Burnside costume gone but hate that the cowl is gone.

----------


## sorboares

But the past few years the cowls are for hiding their identities and to protect them and they also communicate with them. Just look at the Arkham games and the Batgirl new 52 by Gail Simone.

----------


## Carabas

> But the past few years the cowls are for hiding their identities and to protect them and they also communicate with them. Just look at the Arkham games and the Batgirl new 52 by Gail Simone.


Heroes that never had a cowl to begin with seem to get by without any trouble... Just  because it's been that way for the last couple of years does never mean it's going to be that way forever, especially if it was done differently in days of yore.

----------


## MajorHoy

> But the past few years the cowls are for hiding their identities and to protect them and they also communicate with them. *Just look at the Arkham games* . . .


As a main universe comic book reader, I normally don't bother to consider any of the Arkham games nor movies/TV shows when discussing the comic book stories.

----------


## Digifiend

> Batgirl#26 preview...bye bye Burnside outfit!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/08...-costume-cape/


That won't be the last of the damage. Her cape is shredded and her jacket is ripped, but I bet it ends up with her cowl getting ripped too (otherwise, why wouldn't it carry over to the new costume), and note that her hair is shorter in the new costume, so I can see an accidental cut happening too.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That won't be the last of the damage. Her cape is shredded and her jacket is ripped, but I bet it ends up with her cowl getting ripped too (otherwise, why wouldn't it carry over to the new costume), and note that her hair is shorter in the new costume, so I can see an accidental cut happening too.


she looks bigger here

----------


## Frontier

> Batgirl#26 preview...bye bye Burnside outfit!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/08...-costume-cape/


So I guess they're going to spin one benefit of the new costume is that it inexplicably doesn't get damaged  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## RedQueen

Damn the annual was great. 

They weren't kidding with the "silence of the lambs with family" sort of stuff. Meta was pretty good.

The issue #26 was great. I'm never interested in Babs's microchip implant stuff but it's so good seeing Babs and Jim in an issue together.

Scott is definitely off to a great start.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Damn the annual was great. 
> 
> They weren't kidding with the "silence of the lambs with family" sort of stuff. Meta was pretty good.
> 
> The issue #26 was great. I'm never interested in Babs's microchip implant stuff but it's so good seeing Babs and Jim in an issue together.
> 
> *Scott is definitely off to a great start.*


So I'm hearing. I'll see if it's up to my taste.

----------


## Aahz

> Scott is definitely off to a great start.


Definitely, I just hope she can keep that level and that the sales numbers recover.

----------


## Godlike13

I thought #26 was a bit over narrated, but for the most part it was solid. Not spectacular or anything, but not bad. I feel right now they are trying to get from A to B, but Im interested to see what they can really do once they get there.

----------


## kjn

I did like the meta-commentary:

*spoilers:*
"I know what it's like to be treated like an object to be someone's sick little art project."

Now, that obviously is a reference to the Joker (especially as he is visually remembered, but it can just as easily be read as a reference to the story _The Killing Joke_ itself.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

I had a feeling that if spoiler was in Young jsutice her mentor would be babs and thus Bab becoming  Oracle

----------


## Frontier

> I had a feeling that if spoiler was in Young jsutice her mentor would be babs and thus Bab becoming  Oracle


Speaking of which...

Babs as Oracle confirmed to be in _Young Justice: Outsiders_.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Speaking of which...
> 
> Babs as Oracle confirmed to be in _Young Justice: Outsiders_.


that was my way of saying that lol

----------


## sorboares

> that was my way of saying that lol


I really hope she will be Oracle and Batgirl in Young Justice Season 3 like she is in the comics.

----------


## RedBird

I can't see a separate thread for it, but damn, that annual was great, loved the silence of the lamb vibes here.
I loved seeing Babs inner conflict, anger and remorse about her twisted sibling. Also I really liked the art for this issue, especially the constant back and forth between the normal coloring and the red backdrop, which was kinda transformed from being a visage reflecting the dark past and memories, to, by the end, something more ominous and foreboding thanks to James's closing statement about Babs. Really well done.

----------


## Agent Z

*spoilers:*
 Looks like Oracle will be appearing in Young Justice season 3 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## millernumber1

> *spoilers:*
>  Looks like Oracle will be appearing in Young Justice season 3 
> *end of spoilers*


I saw that and was SO EXCITED!!!!

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Okay so i'm interested in reading Batgirl comics again. These three issues by Mairghread Scott have been excellent.

----------


## Rise

Surprised that there's no discussion thread for the latest issues of Batgirl. 

But yeah, it's seem promising so far and got me interested in Babs again.

----------


## MajorHoy

> *Surprised that there's no discussion thread for the latest issues of Batgirl*.


Well, considering the thread for issue #25 was only about a page-and-a-half long, the thread for issue #24 (not by Scott) never made it beyond one page, and I don't even know if there ever was a thread for issue #23, I guess some people just bury their comments for specific issues in either the _Appreciation_ thread or the monthly _Batman and Batfamily Solicitations_ threads and never go beyond those.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I saw that and was SO EXCITED!!!!


how many years has it been we have her being crippled added to the timelines
stephanie is arrived if we get another season i bet damian will be added

----------


## Miles To Go

Just read Batgirl#26. Not a bad read, pretty much a totalling of her Burnside outfit, and we're introduced to a new character/potential love interest who also comes from Bludhaven (so you can tell he'll be a rebound when what happens to Dick in the Bat-Books causes another rift for him and Babs)

----------


## OBrianTallent

I dont think I've been this impressed with a Batgirl book since they brought Babs back to the role.  The story was really good, flowed well, set up a strong premise, used continuity, introduced new concepts...just a really good book.  That plus you cant go wrong with Paul Pelletier.  
My only wish was that instead of a new guy, they would have brought Jason Bard back, but that's no real complaint.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason Bard is kind of a bad guy now though.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Jason Bard is kind of a bad guy now though.


Maybe we can just forget that whole mess . . .

----------


## sorboares

Wow hope this is true. A BATGIRL TV series being developed for DC's streaming service. 
Also hope it's about Barbara Gordon as Batgirl and we still get a movie too.
http://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/batgi...aming-service/

----------


## atomicbattery

> Wow hope this is true. A BATGIRL TV series being developed for DC's streaming service. 
> Also hope it's about Barbara Gordon as Batgirl and we still get a movie too.
> http://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/batgi...aming-service/


Barbara Gordon as Batgirl may be the record holder for crushed movie projects.

A few years back there was the Lauren Montgomery Batgirl:Year One animated movie, which was greenlit and even produced test animation (which can be glimpsed in the final Batman:Brave and the Bold episode), which was then canceled following poor sales for the Wonder Woman animated film.
Then there was Joss Whedon enthusiastically signing up to make Batgirl, getting sidetracked by WB to first try and fix their Justice League mess, then crushed as a faux-feminist by his ex-wife in that online essay, and then crushed again following the online publication of his ‘problematic’ Wonder Woman script, all culminating to make his Batgirl unthinkable.
Then WB announces that Christina Hodson, writer of the Margot Robbie Birds of Prey film, will now write Batgirl, which recently was said to be going out to directors.

So now Batgirl is a tv series?
Ok, I guess

----------


## Digifiend

Of course it being Babs is just assumption at this point. Could be Cass or Steph, though Babs would make sense as she's the current one in the comics. I don't think it's a coincidence that Barry was brought back as Flash in the comics, then not long after he got a show on CW.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Jason Bard is kind of a bad guy now though.





> Maybe we can just forget that whole mess . . .


What????  When/Where did that happen??  

And sounds good to me!

----------


## MajorHoy

> What????  When/Where did that happen??


In the weekly series *Batman Eternal* from 2014-2015.




It was one of several plots.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> In the weekly series *Batman Eternal* from 2014-2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was one of several plots.


I had blotted that from memory...

----------


## billee0918

1802429A-0913-49BE-9B50-706E4C3FD196.jpg

In DC’s December solicitations, published today

----------


## sorboares

> 1802429A-0913-49BE-9B50-706E4C3FD196.jpg
> 
> In DCs December solicitations, published today


I miss her cowl...She needs her cowl  :Frown:

----------


## byrd156

> 1802429A-0913-49BE-9B50-706E4C3FD196.jpg
> 
> In DC’s December solicitations, published today


Love this design and love that she is using the animated series grapnel gun.

----------


## Frontier

> 1802429A-0913-49BE-9B50-706E4C3FD196.jpg
> 
> In DC’s December solicitations, published today


Almost makes up for the lack of an actual _Batgirl_ solicit...

----------


## MajorHoy

> 1802429A-0913-49BE-9B50-706E4C3FD196.jpg
> 
> In DCs December solicitations, published today


Is it just me, or does that cape need to be a much darker shade of blue?  :Confused:

----------


## Vinsanity

> Is it just me, or does that cape need to be a much darker shade of blue?


Probably just the statue.

But i really do miss the Burnside costume.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Probably just the statue.
> 
> But i really do miss the Burnside costume.


If they're going to drop the recent outfit, why not just go back to her *original* look?


(Okay, maybe not with those heels, but . . . )

----------


## Vinsanity

> If they're going to drop the recent outfit, why not just go back to her *original* look?
> 
> 
> (Okay, maybe not with those heels, but . . . )


Yeah just replace the heels and modernise it especially the hair

----------


## MajorHoy

> Yeah just replace the heels and modernise it especially the hair


And the full cowl/mask just looks better than the thing they have on her head now, the eye-mask and the goofy bat ears sticking up through/behind her hair.

----------


## millernumber1

> Almost makes up for the lack of an actual _Batgirl_ solicit...


I really like this statue. Did we not get confirmation that Batgirl would drop January 2nd?

----------


## MajorHoy

> I really like this statue. Did we not get confirmation that Batgirl would drop January 2nd?


I believe it is, but it's annoying since July also wound up not having any Batgirl issue ship (#25 got bumped to August 15th, and #26 was delayed a week to August 29th).

----------


## Frontier

> If they're going to drop the recent outfit, why not just go back to her *original* look?
> 
> 
> (Okay, maybe not with those heels, but . . . )


I mean, this costume has been modernized a few times (DCAU, Arkham games, etc.), so I'm kind of surprised they haven't just brought it back for Babs' modern costume.

But I guess they still want to keep at least some of a "millennial" feel as they move away from Burnside.



> I really like this statue. Did we not get confirmation that Batgirl would drop January 2nd?


I'm not sure, actually  :Frown: .

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by millernumber1
> 
> 
> Did we not get confirmation that Batgirl would drop January 2nd?
> 
> 
> I'm not sure, actually .


There's this from a different thread:


> https://www.newsarama.com/41866-dc-c...citations.html

----------


## Frontier

Anyone remember that _Gotham Girls_ episode where Batgirl got amnesia and was roped into being a criminal? _DC Super Hero Girls_ just did it's own take on that plot:

----------


## byrd156

> Anyone remember that _Gotham Girls_ episode where Batgirl got amensia and was roped into being a criminal? DC Super Hero Girls just did it's own take on that plot:


Is this a sneak preview of DC's plan for Dick?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Is this a sneak preview of DC's plan for Dick?


"You Scratch My Back" in comic form  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Vinsanity

Not really a fan of the darker direction. I mean I know Batman, Red Hood, & NW are going with a darker tone but I always liked Batgirl in a lighter tone. To be fair I prefer NW in a lighter tone.

----------


## Celgress

For those interested, I've posted the first teaser chapter of a new fanfic starring Babs -

Title

Space Odyssey of Hope

Summary

Set in Universe 7531. Unable to accept the death of her best friend Batgirl, alongside her boyfriend Nightwing, goes on a galaxy-spanning quest in hopes of finding technology that can resurrect the fallen Supergirl (she was disintegrated by a Martian superweapon so no Lazarus Pit). Meanwhile the brothers Darkseid and Thanos battle for control over the empire of the "New Gods". Caught in the middle of a terrible war our heroes fight to survive.

Main Characters - [Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle, Dick G./Nightwing] Thanos, Darkseid

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1307940...dyssey-of-Hope

If so inclined, enjoy.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not really a fan of the darker direction. I mean I know Batman, Red Hood, & NW are going with a darker tone but I always liked Batgirl in a lighter tone. To be fair I prefer NW in a lighter tone.


Other than Grotesque being a darker villain that the kind of candy colored and low-stakes villains we've been seeing for three years, I don't feel that Babs's relationships or character is necessarily darker. I don't think "more serious" necessarily has to be "darker" or "grim."  In particular, I am really excited to see more of Babs and Jim, though hopefully it doesn't go in the "Batgirl: Wanted" direction this time around.

----------


## kjn

It's not only we who appreciate Babs; Black Canary does it too.

tumblr_lh8g1xMeoK1qbujox.jpg

----------


## Frontier

Batgirl in the Three Jokers story:

----------


## Pohzee

I wonder if Batgirl and Red Hood’s involvement in this story has to do with their recent status quo and costume changes?

It seems weird for them to change costumes right before they change costumes, but they definitely look designed to be temporary.

I dig Fabok’s Batgirl costume though!

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder if Batgirl and Red Hood’s involvement in this story has to do with their recent status quo and costume changes?
> 
> It seems weird for them to change costumes right before they change costumes, but they definitely look designed to be temporary.
> 
> I dig Fabok’s Batgirl costume though!


Timeline-wise these are apparently all their "future" costumes by the time period of _Doomsday Clock_ (whenever the DCU catches up, that is). 

I like the costume because it's A. Classic, B. makes Barbara look her age, and C. has the cowl back.

----------


## RedQueen

Not gonna lie, Fabok drawing Babs is the man draw for me.

I'm hoping Babs can get a chance to reclaim the TKJ narrative for herself in some way since DC is absolutely committed to that damn story. TKJ movie was horrid so maybe they can make even justify the existence of Babs in that story and actually give her moment in this story.

Plus ever since New 52 they really haven't really known how to let in unfold for Babs. The PTSD story line was great but it got dropped. The microchip and it's ability to get hacked is damn stupid. So maybe they can resolve some of the issues plaguing Babs with TKJ hanging over her head.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm hoping Babs can get a chance to reclaim the TKJ narrative for herself in some way since DC is absolutely committed to that damn story. TKJ movie was horrid so maybe they can make even justify the existence of Babs in that story and actually give her moment in this story.


Hopefully this story gives us what the movie should have as far as integrating Batgirl in to the _Killing Joke_'s narrative.

----------


## Godlike13

Has Johns ever wrote Babs for more then a panel here or there? I’m excited for this.

----------


## joybeans

> I wonder if Batgirl and Red Hood’s involvement in this story has to do with their recent status quo and costume changes?
> 
> It seems weird for them to change costumes right before they change costumes, but they definitely look designed to be temporary.
> 
> I dig Fabok’s Batgirl costume though!


I think these are all temporary. DC wants this book to have more staying power on the shelves, so they're going with iconic and familiar designs, rather than the ones that reflect their current status quo.

----------


## sorboares

> Timeline-wise these are apparently all their "future" costumes by the time period of _Doomsday Clock_ (whenever the DCU catches up, that is). 
> 
> I like the costume because it's A. Classic, B. makes Barbara look her age, and C. has the cowl back.



Barbara Gordon as Batgirl looks amazing in the Three Jokers! I seriously hope this costume continues in her current Batgirl series. 
She looks like an adult, she looks strong,  I love the darker colors, I love her cowl is back HELL YES that makes such an improvement. 
She is perfect!

----------


## kjn

> Hopefully this story gives us what the movie should have as far as integrating Batgirl in to the _Killing Joke_'s narrative.


I'm not sure that's really possible, or a good idea. TKJ is so deeply steeped in internalised and unthinking misogyny that I'm not sure it can be redeemed, or Batgirl "integrated".

----------


## Restingvoice

Dpe-d9PVsAArIAB.jpg

Babs Tarr's Spooky Babs

print for sale

----------


## Jackalope89

Babs as Cass' mentor.



While TKJ was bad in how it treated Babs, her being a mentor to both Cass and Steph was pretty interesting.

----------


## Frontier

Burnside Batgirl by Otto Schmidt:

----------


## Celgress

> Dpe-d9PVsAArIAB.jpg
> 
> Babs Tarr's Spooky Babs
> 
> print for sale


adorable yet frightening

----------


## atomicbattery

> Burnside Batgirl by Otto Schmidt


I thought that Otto Schmidt’s Barbara in the Nightwing Annual was beautiful, perfect.
Would love to see him draw her more often.

----------


## Godlike13

> Burnside Batgirl by Otto Schmidt:


This is cool.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Burnside Batgirl by Otto Schmidt:


That makes that costume look awesome!

----------


## Agent Z

https://vavitsara.tumblr.com/post/17...atgirls-on-ice

----------


## sorboares

https://comicsverse.com/batgirl-28-preview/

The art looks great and I love the new costume but still not used to her having no cowl.

----------


## MajorHoy

> https://comicsverse.com/batgirl-28-preview/
> 
> The art looks great and I love the new costume but still not used to her having no cowl.


By the way, there is a separate thread to discuss _Batgirl #28_:https://community.cbr.com/showthread...cussion-thread

----------


## Jackalope89

Ah, Babs. Ever the meticulous librarian.

----------


## Agent Z

https://cheahup.tumblr.com/post/1790...ser-it-gets-to

----------


## millernumber1

> https://vavitsara.tumblr.com/post/17...atgirls-on-ice


This whole series of Batgirls on Ice is lovely.

----------


## Frontier

> https://cheahup.tumblr.com/post/1790...ser-it-gets-to


A Batgirls Halloween  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Restingvoice

I was at Dick's thread arranging a recommendation list and Batgirl Year One popped up. When is this story in the timeline? I know she's made younger and I know this is supposed to be read as a flashback when you're reading Post Crisis, but if I place it around the same time as her original first appearance, does it work?

----------


## MajorHoy

> I was at Dick's thread arranging a recommendation list and Batgirl Year One popped up. When is this story in the timeline? I know she's made younger and I know this is supposed to be read as a flashback when you're reading Post Crisis, but if I place it around the same time as her original first appearance, does it work?


Probably not, since Barbara's back story was *seriously* altered for the _post-CoIE_ era.

----------


## millernumber1

Speaking of the grossness that is TKJ, has anyone peeked at the new novelization of that book that just came out to see if they do a better job with Babs?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Speaking of the grossness that is TKJ, has anyone peeked at the new novelization of that book that just came out to see if they do a better job with Babs?


No. The animated film kind of killed my interest in it. Not to mention, it only proved that Bruce Timm needs someone like Paul Dini to reign him in.

----------


## millernumber1

> No. The animated film kind of killed my interest in it. Not to mention, it only proved that Bruce Timm needs someone like Paul Dini to reign him in.


100% agree about Timm and the film. But I don't think Timm was involved in the novel?

----------


## Shadowcat

What are some of Barbara’s more memorable adventures in the Pre-Crisis 80’s era? I own the entire Doug Moench run, and currently working on the Gerry Conway run, as well as the end of the Brave & the Bold up to issue 200, so I’m just looking for some good 80’s Babsgirl books to look for.

----------


## kjn

> Speaking of the grossness that is TKJ, has anyone peeked at the new novelization of that book that just came out to see if they do a better job with Babs?


Looking at the Amazon reviews and the short excerpt available, I wouldn't hold my hopes up. Sure, they don't mention Babs, but when you have several reasoned 1- and 2-star reviews, the book's not good. The writing in the excerpt also felt similar to the quickly-produced short novels available in newsstands in my youth. Sure, there were some gems in there if you picked the right author (writing in that format is its own talent), but this called back to the poorly-written and poorly-plotted ones.

An interview with the authors discusses Babs specifically, but I'm not sure TKJ is salvagable from its misogynist roots, even if they had Ursula K Le Guin or Margaret Atwood writing the novelisation.

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## millernumber1

> Looking at the Amazon reviews and the short excerpt available, I wouldn't hold my hopes up. Sure, they don't mention Babs, but when you have several reasoned 1- and 2-star reviews, the book's not good. The writing in the excerpt also felt similar to the quickly-produced short novels available in newsstands in my youth. Sure, there were some gems in there if you picked the right author (writing in that format is its own talent), but this called back to the poorly-written and poorly-plotted ones.
> 
> An interview with the authors discusses Babs specifically, but I'm not sure TKJ is salvagable from its misogynist roots, even if they had Ursula K Le Guin or Margaret Atwood writing the novelisation.


I mean, I've been listening to the Graphic Audio novelization dramatization thingies from the Humble Bundle this summer, and I thought Christopher Priest and Denny O'Neil turned out some solid novels. But a lot of the other books are just pretty thinly written, so I wouldn't be surprised.

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## Oberon

I very recently found out that the current writer of Batgirl, Mairghreads Scott, is the daughter of a friend, associate and colleage.  I know her too, but mostly when she was a younger one, ummm, some 15 years ago or so, when she and her mom came to the places we associated at.   A couple of years ago I remet her, as an adult, when I found out she was writing for comics in general, at the Detroit Comique event, which is dedicated to female creators and characters, indies, etc.  (so pre her DC Batgirl gig).

So that is two writers, from the Detroit area, that I knew as children and now as adults, for Saladin Ahmed is also the child of a friend and associate, and now writes for Marvel and others I think.    

Fun fact: When Saladin was around 12, he asked his father, my friend Ish, if I could teach him how to read Tarot cards (reader since 1972) but that never happened.  I actually met this child when he was around 5 or so, during a school play he was in, which was a parody of Wizard of OZ (for a counter-cultural type school, obviously).  That was around 1980.

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## Jackalope89

Always one of more surreal moments I've seen in comics; Babs playing pingpong with Penguin.

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## Starrius

> Probably not, since Barbara's back story was *seriously* altered for the _post-CoIE_ era.



yep
introduced as Dr. Barbara Gordon
she had a Ph.D.
was Head Librarian of Gotham City Library 

she was a U.S. House Representative, and Dick had worked as her assistant
This was in the Batman Family Comic issues


I wonder why they made comic Barbara Gordon a redhead.
In the 1960s Batman TV show,  Barbara Gordon was played by Yvonne Craig who had dark brown hair.  The redhair was wig attached to her cowl.


It just seems it wouldn't be hard to figure out Batgirl is Barbara Gordon from her hair color, eye color, hair formation, height and body frame
but then again, domino masks (The Robins,Nightwing), clear eyeglasses (Clark Kent,Diana Prince) , and sunglasses (Kory Anders) were thought to conceal people's identities

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## kjn

> I mean, I've been listening to the Graphic Audio novelization dramatization thingies from the Humble Bundle this summer, and I thought Christopher Priest and Denny O'Neil turned out some solid novels. But a lot of the other books are just pretty thinly written, so I wouldn't be surprised.


Found one review:




> Batman: The Killing Joke (the novel) doesn’t add anything clever, creative or even meaningful to the story.





> Instead of getting some great insight on Batgirl to make the later events more impactful, we get Barbara in the suit doing some crime fighting. Nothing more, nothing less.

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## yohyoi

We know how Dick felt about the Barbara and Bruce affair. It's a big reason he hates Bruce in Batman Beyond and why their relationship became unsalvagable. But I can't find anything about Barbara's inner thoughts and feelings about the affair and the result of it? Most of it are just her acting like a Batman fangirl or a groupie. Any issues reasoning why Barbara did it and how it affected her in the long run?

Even when she was dating Dick again, she didn't tell him about Bruce. Trust and honesty are a huge things for Grayson. She knew Dick quitted before because Batman didn't tell him Batgirl is his girlfriend, Barbara Gordon. I just find it cold for Barbara to do that. I don't know. I think most of Barbara's side of story was not told.

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## Starrius

> We know how Dick felt about the Barbara and Bruce affair. It's a big reason he hates Bruce in Batman Beyond and why their relationship became unsalvagable. But I can't find anything about Barbara's inner thoughts and feelings about the affair and the result of it? Most of it are just her acting like a Batman fangirl or a groupie. Any issues reasoning why Barbara did it and how it affected her in the long run?
> 
> Even when she was dating Dick again, she didn't tell him about Bruce. Trust and honesty are a huge things for Grayson. She knew Dick quitted before because Batman didn't tell him Batgirl is his girlfriend, Barbara Gordon. I just find it cold for Barbara to do that. I don't know. I think most of Barbara's side of story was not told.



Bruce/Barbara only occurred in Timms DC Animated Universe

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## Jackalope89

> We know how Dick felt about the Barbara and Bruce affair. It's a big reason he hates Bruce in Batman Beyond and why their relationship became unsalvagable. But I can't find anything about Barbara's inner thoughts and feelings about the affair and the result of it? Most of it are just her acting like a Batman fangirl or a groupie. Any issues reasoning why Barbara did it and how it affected her in the long run?
> 
> Even when she was dating Dick again, she didn't tell him about Bruce. Trust and honesty are a huge things for Grayson. She knew Dick quitted before because Batman didn't tell him Batgirl is his girlfriend, Barbara Gordon. I just find it cold for Barbara to do that. I don't know. I think most of Barbara's side of story was not told.


Ask Bruce Timm. 

That's one of the few parts of the DCAU I would rather pretend didn't exist.

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## yohyoi

Thanks anyway. I'm just curious about Barbara and why she dates the Bat boys. I think it could be more than because there should always be a romance plotline.

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## kjn

A while ago, I wrote a new set of lyrics to the classic song “I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night”, as sung by Joan Baez (there are lots of great versions, but this one needed a woman's voice).

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

The Killing Joke, says I to her
Her watching like a seer 
They shot and raped and left you, Babs
Says Babs, But I'm still here
Says Babs, But I'm still here

The DC bosses wrote you out,
They turned you into grist
Takes more than pens to unwrite me
Says Babs, And I persist
Says Babs, And I persist

And sitting there as real as life
And smiling with her eyes
Babs says, What they can not erase
My life that I devise
My life that I devise

Oracle's here, she says to me
Oracle still abides
Where girls are fridg'd and written out
Oracle's at their sides
Oracle's at their sides

In songs and films and comic books
The valley and the hill
Where women build their life anew
You'll find Oracle still
You'll find Oracle still

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

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## atomicbattery

That is awesome

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## MajorHoy

> Thanks anyway. I'm just curious about Barbara and why she dates the Bat boys.


How many "Bat boys" has she dated?  :Confused:  
Aside from original Robin Dick Grayson, and briefly Luke "Batwing" Fox, who else was there (and where/when did it happen)?

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## Aahz

> How many "Bat boys" has she dated?  
> Aside from original Robin Dick Grayson, and briefly Luke "Batwing" Fox, who else was there (and where/when did it happen)?


- There was this thing with her and Jason during batman Eternal.
- She married Tim in the Arkham games.
- And she had also something with Bruce in the DCAU and the Killing Joke movie

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## Konja7

> - There was this thing with her and Jason during batman Eternal.
> - She married Tim in the Arkham games.
> - And she had also something with Bruce in the DCAU and the Killing Joke movie


Well, I guess it's because the creators like to put Batgirl on relationships with a  Batboy (and they don't want use Dick). 

- Maybe Tynion wants to develop a romance between Barbara and Jason. However, that was stopped. 


The AU has more freedom for this:

- I don't know much about Arkham games. I guess the writers may want develop a romantic relationship between Batgil and a Robin. 

- Bruce Willis seems to like the idea of Batman and Batgirl. That's probably why Barbara has feeling for Bruce on Killing Joke movie.

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## MajorHoy

> - There was this thing with her and Jason during batman Eternal.


That wasn't "dating" as I read it. I'm not sure it really qualified as "flirting".

"Friendliness" maybe.

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## kjn

> That is awesome


Thanks! (10char)

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## Starrius

> Well, I guess it's because the creators like to put Batgirl on relationships with a  Batboy (and they don't want use Dick). 
> 
> - Maybe Tynion wants to develop a romance between Barbara and Jason. However, that was stopped. 
> 
> 
> The AU has more freedom for this:
> 
> - I don't know much about Arkham games. I guess the writers may want develop a romantic relationship between Batgil and a Robin. 
> 
> - Bruce Willis seems to like the idea of Batman and Batgirl. That's probably why Barbara has feeling for Bruce on Killing Joke movie.



Barbara was also shown to have romantic feelings for Bruce in  The Mystery of the Batwoman movie which was released in 2003.
Timm wasn't even involved in the making of it.
While Barbara is away at college, she called Bruce on the phone and it came off like she was flirting and coming onto him, and Bruce acted all awkward and trying to avoid her while he was in the car with Tim.

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## Aahz

> That wasn't "dating" as I read it. I'm not sure it really qualified as "flirting".


But it was at least going in that direction.

Btw. I think Azrael had at some point also a crush on her.

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## Starrius



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## Rac7d*

Babs confirmed for Titans

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## atomicbattery

> Babs confirmed for Titans


That’s nice, I guess maybe. It seems like every Batfamily member except her is appearing in live action.
Hope she’s still headed for the big screen though.

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## Godlike13

I far as I’m aware she was just mentioned.

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## Starrius

> I far as I’m aware she was just mentioned.


exactly
her name being mentioned doesn't mean that there is confirmed for Titans

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## RedQueen

> I far as I’m aware she was just mentioned.


Nice nod. I hope they explore Gotham a little more. So far Hawk and Dove, Donna and Dick are the most interesting characters to me. 

But at least Babs exists in some capacity.

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## sorboares

> Nice nod. I hope they explore Gotham a little more. So far Hawk and Dove, Donna and Dick are the most interesting characters to me. 
> 
> But at least Babs exists in some capacity.




Yeh I was super excited that FINALLY Babs was mentioned. It had been bugging me heaps that her name had not been dropped especially coz Babs is a huge part of Dicks life.
Let's hope now she has been mentioned maybe we will finally get to see her maybe in season 2?

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## oasis1313

> 


Yvonne Craig was so beautiful.  I always thought she was the perfect Batgirl.

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## Starrius

> Yeh I was super excited that FINALLY Babs was mentioned. It had been bugging me heaps that her name had not been dropped especially coz Babs is a huge part of Dicks life.
> Let's hope now she has been mentioned maybe we will finally get to see her maybe in season 2?



I hope not. 
I'd rather there is more concentration on Dick's relationship with Kory. 
Kory was a huge part of Dick's life too. 
She and Dick were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994. 
She factored into Dick's transition from Robin to Nightwing.
She helped Dick take off his Robin tunic when he gave up being Robin.
Her framed picture was one of the three framed pictures (First was Dick's parents, the second was Batman and Robin, and the third/final one was Kory) that Dick made references to just before becoming Nightwing for the first time

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## Starrius

> Yvonne Craig was so beautiful.  I always thought she was the perfect Batgirl.


brunette Barbara Gordon disguised herself as redhaired Batgirl
great disguise
I think that they should have done that in the comics

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