# Comics  > DC Comics >  DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

## Triple J

Hey Guys,

So, let's talk about DCEU, shall we?  :Big Grin: 

DC Extended Universe Slate

RELEASED

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice[March 2016]

Director: Zack Snyder
Writers: Chris Terrio & David Goyer


Suicide Squad[August 2016]

Director: David Ayer
Writers: David Ayer & John Ostrander


Wonder Woman[June 2017]
Director: Patty Jenkins


Justice League[November 2017]

Director: Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon
Screenplay: Chris Terrio


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COMING SOON


Aquaman[2018]

Director: James Wan
Writer: Will Beall

Shazam[2019]
Director: David F. Sanberg
Writer: Darren Lenke


Wonder Woman 2[2019]

Batgirl

Green Lantern Corps

Batman
Director: Matt Reeves
Writer: Ben Affleck and Geoff Johns

Vertigo/New Line Universe Slate

Sandman

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## byrd156

> Hey Guys,
> 
> So, let's talk about DCU, shall we? 
> 
> *What we know so far:*
> 
> SvB or BvS or MOS2 coming out in 2016
> SvB - Superman, Batman, WW, Cyborg (cameo), Lex Luthor, Alfred, and a lot of other characters (Holly Hunter, Callan Mulley and Tao Okamoto - characters not confirmed).
> JL movie announced, most likely in 2017 or '18.
> ...


If they are going to do the alternate universe, they should have an Earth 2/JSA movie. I personally want a Titans movie about the original five Titans but that will never happen because of the Nu52. 

I love Arrow but I highly doubt they will be connected, DC struck gold with Arrow and they haven't been able to do that with anything since Young Justice was still on air.
DC should keep expanding their Arrowverse with characters that DC wouldn't use for their own movies. 

Characters I want would be the Bat-Family mainly Dick Grayson (rocking the blue costume like he should), I want Tim as Robin and I want him to be likable again unlike his Nu52 counterpart. I would like the main Justice league team to be Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Aquaman, and Martian Manhunter.( Though its going to be Cyborg instead) It would be cool if DC had two different Leagues like the normal JL and JLA. Though I don't want the same roster as JLA. If the JLA could get their own movie I would want Green Arrow, Star Girl, Martian Manhunter, Guy Gardner, Black Canary, Booster Gold, and Blue Beetle.

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## Triple J

> If they are going to do the alternate universe, they should have an Earth 2/JSA movie. I personally want a Titans movie about the original five Titans but that will never happen because of the Nu52. 
> 
> I love Arrow but I highly doubt they will be connected, DC struck gold with Arrow and they haven't been able to do that with anything since Young Justice was still on air.
> DC should keep expanding their Arrowverse with characters that DC wouldn't use for their own movies. 
> 
> Characters I want would be the Bat-Family mainly Dick Grayson (rocking the blue costume like he should), I want Tim as Robin and I want him to be likable again unlike his Nu52 counterpart. I would like the main Justice league team to be Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Aquaman, and Martian Manhunter.( Though its going to be Cyborg instead) It would be cool if DC had two different Leagues like the normal JL and JLA. Though I don't want the same roster as JLA. If the JLA could get their own movie I would want Green Arrow, Star Girl, Martian Manhunter, Guy Gardner, Black Canary, Booster Gold, and Blue Beetle.


They could still do a Teen titans movie (Tim Drake and all...would be weird to have the 'original team titans' in a movie without Cyborg).

JSA is possible (You mean the classic, or new 52 JSA?). I do like the new 52 JSA (apart from them focusing on New Batman and Superman..but that's going to change with the weekly series; the monthly series is going to focus on the other members, like it was earlier).

Classic is awesome too...***** and lighter elements for Earth 2  :Big Grin: 

I agree with you on that...I am glad that they decided to develop it and spinoff a Flash series (we might even get some other tv shows spinning off of Flash, if it ends up being a good show).

Yeah, they could introduce NW and Robin in a Batman (prequel?), after the first JL movie.

Love that..just like in New 52, except for a few team changes.

JL forms up...but at the same time, Waller forms her own team - JLA (with MM being the leader  :Big Grin: ).

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## byrd156

> They could still do a Teen titans movie (Tim Drake and all...would be weird to have the 'original team titans' in a movie without Cyborg).
> 
> JSA is possible (You mean the classic, or new 52 JSA?). I do like the new 52 JSA (apart from them focusing on New Batman and Superman..but that's going to change with the weekly series; the monthly series is going to focus on the other members, like it was earlier).
> 
> Classic is awesome too...***** and lighter elements for Earth 2 
> 
> I agree with you on that...I am glad that they decided to develop it and spinoff a Flash series (we might even get some other tv shows spinning off of Flash, if it ends up being a good show).
> 
> Yeah, they could introduce NW and Robin in a Batman (prequel?), after the first JL movie.
> ...


When I said Earth 2/JSA it means the Nu52 version. Cyborg was never an original Titan. When I say original I mean Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Garth, and Roy Harper. I never liked Geoff Johns Titans which is mainly Tim and his generation. Also the Nu52 Titans book is hands down worst series I have ever read. 

I would like NW to have his own movie since he is my favorite character. I dont want Cyborg as a founding member of JL, but if they wanted him to be a leaguer they could just have him be on the JLA instead. 

I liked that the JLA was a government team but I don't like that it was mainly controlled by Waller it felt to Suicide Squad to me. Though I do want a Suicide Squad movie, DC has been pushing them out more and more into mainstream. Plus I think they actually have script for it.

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## Pinsir

Lets make this a thread about positivity!  :Big Grin:

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## Miraclo__Pill

> When I said Earth 2/JSA it means the Nu52 version. Cyborg was never an original Titan. When I say original I mean Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Garth, and Roy Harper. I never liked Geoff Johns Titans which is mainly Tim and his generation. Also the Nu52 Titans book is hands down worst series I have ever read. 
> 
> I would like NW to have his own movie since he is my favorite character. I dont want Cyborg as a founding member of JL, but if they wanted him to be a leaguer they could just have him be on the JLA instead. 
> 
> I liked that the JLA was a government team but I don't like that it was mainly controlled by Waller it felt to Suicide Squad to me. Though I do want a Suicide Squad movie, DC has been pushing them out more and more into mainstream. Plus I think they actually have script for it.



Still, at least in the mind of us older readers, Cyborg is synonim of the Titans more than any other character. A Justice League, at least at first, should comprise of the magnificent seven. 

Wasn't there rumours of a Suicide Squad spin off from Arrow? 

And I can see Pinsir has found a new spirituality with this reboot we just had...  :Big Grin:

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## Triple J

> When I said Earth 2/JSA it means the Nu52 version. Cyborg was never an original Titan. When I say original I mean Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Garth, and Roy Harper. I never liked Geoff Johns Titans which is mainly Tim and his generation. Also the Nu52 Titans book is hands down worst series I have ever read. 
> 
> I would like NW to have his own movie since he is my favorite character. I dont want Cyborg as a founding member of JL, but if they wanted him to be a leaguer they could just have him be on the JLA instead. 
> 
> I liked that the JLA was a government team but I don't like that it was mainly controlled by Waller it felt to Suicide Squad to me. Though I do want a Suicide Squad movie, DC has been pushing them out more and more into mainstream. Plus I think they actually have script for it.


Ah, okay.

Yeah...that and Worlds' Finest.

Hopefully the relaunch will be better  :Big Grin: 

Yeah, it does feel weird to have Cyborg on the main team, but I think they are going to go with it; mirror the new 52 line up.

Don't forget Steve...Waller and Trevor.

Yeah...TV shows, video game and now animated feature. I have heard that...that and rumors about JLD movie (Del Toro did say that he was working on one...haven't heard anything recently).

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## Triple J

> Lets make this a thread about positivity!


Yes  :Big Grin: ......

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## Triple J

> Still, at least in the mind of us older readers, Cyborg is synonim of the Titans more than any other character. A Justice League, at least at first, should comprise of the magnificent seven. 
> 
> Wasn't there rumours of a Suicide Squad spin off from Arrow? 
> 
> And I can see Pinsir has found a new spirituality with this reboot we just had...


Well, at least one of the 7 are being replaced..with Cyborg casting.

I think they will include MM (they did have a small Easter egg in MOS), but I am not sure.

Yeah, there were also some rumors about a movie....hopefully we will get either one of those (or maybe even both!).

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## Triple J

Arguments (For WB/DC Films)

Why 'Justice League' Cynicism is Wrong and Why the Film will be a Hit?

Highlights:

Can WB/DC build a cinematic Universe?




> We can also look at the Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings franchises to see how well Warner Bros. can handle big, expensive, complicated, risky franchise-building involving large casts and interconnected story arcs in films releasing close together (including in back-to-back years). Lots of people questioned the wisdom of those ventures and the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars spent over so many years, but in hindsight it seems like a no-brainer in both cases.
> 
> Fans who question the wisdom of Warner investing in two superhero team-up films on this scale of world-building, and trying to do so much so soon so close together, need to keep the success of the above examples in mind — those two franchises together took $10.6 billion worldwide at the box office, and another estimated $4 billion in DVD/Blu-ray/Digital-HD sales and rentals. Then add in all the other merchandising tie-ins, and we’re looking at something probably approaching $20 billion in revenue. *So when wondering whether Warner Bros. can handle adapting the DCU to film, don’t make the mistake of thinking this is their first time at the rodeo, dear readers.*


Is WB/DC rushing things?




> Fans have bemoaned the lack of a larger cinematic DCU for some time now, and the press has consistently pointed out that Marvel is releasing multiple films every year and building a gigantic live-action comic book world on the big screen while WB/DC haven’t had success with any characters besides Batman and Superman on and off over the last several years. So there’s been a general sense of “hurry up” implicit in much of what the fans and media say for the last many years. Which makes it all the stranger that, when Warner is now working to get their superhero characters into theaters together in a unified setting with plans for multiple projects and characters, the same folks who’ve insisted Warner needed to hurry will likely be shouting “slow down.”


BvS or SvB or MOS2 Too Crowded?




> So, the idea that Warner is crowding their newest superhero film because it features Batman fighting Superman while Wonder Woman has a small role and Victor Stone (aka Cyborg) cameos just doesn’t make much sense. What matters is storytelling, what matters is the quality of the film.



Against WB/DC

Zack Snyder's Justice League Should Wait Until 2018

*Highlights:*

Putting too much Trust in Snyder?




> But if the studio doesn’t go the “stand-alone franchises with periodic team-up film” strategy like Marvel and Walt Disney, then what amounts to the DC Comics franchise, a single franchise closer in concept to the Harry Potter series than the interconnected Marvel Universe, will basically belong to Zack Snyder until he walks away.
> 
> That’s a lot of trust in a filmmaker whose last few films prior to Man of Steel (Watchmen, Legend of the Guardians, Sucker Punch) were financial disappointments, and whose Man of Steel wasn’t exactly the critical darling and/or leggy box office smash that Warner hoped it would be ($668m is nothing to sneeze at, but it’s about to get passed by Captain America: The Winter Soldier). Snyder is a dynamite visual stylist and top-notch action director, but it’s surprising to see that Warner is basically entrusting the entire DC Comics universe to a single director with a less-than-sterling box office history with the studio, especially as they are no longer trying to sell the notion that Chris Nolan (whose name was a key part of the Man of Steel marketing campaign) has anything to do with this these films.


Darkseid Vs Thanos?




> There is one risk of waiting until 2018 or later, and that’s the risk of a Justice League presumably centered around Darkseid being overshadowed or beaten to the punch by an Avengers 3 presumably centered around Thanos. But for the sake of breaking the current trend of rushing these franchise films out as fast as humanly possible, I hope Warner Bros. is planning on being patient in terms of slotting Justice League. For the sake of allowing the main actors and Zack Snyder to do things that aren’t DC Comics related over the next ten years, I hope Justice League doesn’t shoot back-to-back with Batman Vs. Superman and doesn’t come out until July 19th, 2018 at the earliest.





> *A genuinely good Justice League movie is certainly worth waiting for.*

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## Triple J

Warner Bros. on a Caped Crusade

More than a decade ago, a young Warner Bros. executive fretted that the studio's DC Comics unit might lose a generation of young fans if it didn't catch up to rival Marvel in the business of making superhero movies.

"We're not going to let that happen," declared Kevin Tsujihara, then-executive vice president of business development, in 2003.

But over the past several years at the box office, DC Comics has fallen even further behind Marvel, now owned by Walt Disney Co.

'It isn't about a single approach to everything,' says DC Entertainment president Diane Nelson, shown at the 'Man Of Steel' world premiere. Invision/Associated Press
Mr. Tsujihara, meanwhile, rose to become chief executive of Time Warner Inc.  Warner Bros. Now, one year into his tenure, he has put a revival of DC in movies, TV and other media at the core of his plans for Hollywood's largest movie studio.

*"If you want to know how we are going to grow as a company and what's important to us, DC is at the top of the list," Mr. Tsujihara said*.

To that end, Warner Bros. is focusing like never before on a DC movie slate that will lead into "Justice League," an "Avengers" style team-up that will include Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. But the next movie, tentatively titled "Batman vs. Superman," won't come out until 2016. During the interim, Disney will release four new Marvel films.

In the past five years, Disney has released seven Marvel movies, including "Avengers," "Iron Man 3" and the recent hit "Captain America: The Winter Soldier," that have together grossed more than $5.3 billion world-wide. (On Friday, the latest Marvel movie—"The Amazing Spider-Man 2"—comes out, although that is produced by Sony Pictures under a decades-old licensing deal.)

Warner in the past five years released five DC films, among them the flops "Green Lantern" and "Jonah Hex," that grossed a total of just over $2 billion. DC's big-screen success in the past decade has come from Christopher Nolan, who directed the $2.5 billion-grossing "Dark Knight" trilogy and produced last year's hit "Man of Steel."

But the fiercely independent Mr. Nolan didn't work within a larger DC strategy and has declined entreaties to do more superhero movies. Warner has now entrusted its core superheroes to "Man of Steel" director Zack Snyder, who will helm "Superman vs. Batman" and then "Justice League." *It also has nine other movies based on DC comics in development.

Progress is faster in television, as Warner has produced a record four DC-based pilots for the coming fall season. They include the Batman prequel "Gotham," already ordered to series by the Fox network, and "Flash," a spinoff of the CW Network's superhero hit "Arrow."*

*Warner is also looking to accelerate the success it has enjoyed using DC characters in direct-to-DVD animation and videogames, businesses in which it faces little competition from Marvel.

Warner Bros. produces more movies and television shows than any other studio. But like its competitors, it faces long-term declines in movie-theater attendance, DVD sales, and broadcast-TV ratings. And with the "Harry Potter" series over and "The Hobbit" trilogy ending this December, finding new blockbuster franchises is critical to the company's future.*

Hollywood's advantage in an age when anyone can make a YouTube video is its ability to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on movies or TV shows featuring well-known characters with established fan bases. In success, those often spur sales of toys and other products. With thousands of superheroes along with more offbeat fare from its Vertigo line of fantasy, sci-fi and crime comic books, 90-year-old DC Comics provides Warner rich fodder.

Warner Bros. has struggled, though, to integrate DC into its operations for many years. Over the past decade, the head of DC has reported to four different executives. Although comic-book sales were falling while the value of superheroes in movies and other media skyrocketed, the unit was run by a New York-based publisher.

In 2009, a long-promised revamp began with the appointment of Diane Nelson as president of DC Entertainment, based at the studio's Burbank, Calif., headquarters. A marketing executive with no background in comic books, Ms. Nelson made her name managing the studio's biggest franchise of the prior decade: Harry Potter.

Ms. Nelson first reported to the film chief, one of three internal contenders for the CEO job at Warner Bros. The succession race hampered her efforts to work across divisions led by rival executives, according to people at the company.

Last year, soon after Mr. Tsujihara's promotion, Ms. Nelson began reporting to the CEO for the first time in DC's history.

"Kevin came into a political, complicated company and made clear DC is a priority, and I expect everyone to figure this out together," said Ms. Nelson.

Although she oversees the small but profitable comics business, where digital publishing has become a priority, Ms. Nelson's focus is coordinating a studio-wide DC strategy.

Her approach is the opposite of Marvel, which maintains a continuing narrative and cast of characters across all of its projects. Samuel L. Jackson, for instance, has appeared as superspy Nick Fury in "Avengers," "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" and the TV show "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D."

*Ms. Nelson has instead encouraged Warner producers to develop diverse and even contradictory takes. The Batman in "Superman vs Batman," to be played by Ben Affleck, will be different from the one in "Gotham" and in coming direct-to-DVD animated movies and videogames. A kid-friendly version of Batman even appeared in February's hit "The Lego Movie."

"It isn't about a single approach to everything," said Ms. Nelson. "It's the right character matched with the right talent in the right medium."*

DC's chief content officer, Geoff Johns, is tasked with keeping track of it all. A fan-favorite comic-book writer who is the T-shirt wearing geek to Ms. Nelson's polished corporate player, Mr. Johns consults on scripts, visual designs and even titles across the company.

Colleagues say his approach is less nitpicky than his predecessors', with one recalling the time when DC staffers in New York asked an animation executive to change a script because the villain Man-Bat wouldn't be physically strong enough to carry the Penguin (the Batman foe) on his back.

"The restrictions have been swept aside," said Sam Register, the head of Warner Bros. Animation. "We get less 'You mustn't' and more 'Wouldn't it be great if…?' "

Source: WSJ Online

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## LoneNecromancer

> I think they will include MM *(they did have a small Easter egg in MOS)*, but I am not sure.


Was there?

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## Triple J

> Was there?


Yeah,



That seems like Mars to me  :Big Grin:

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## Pinsir

> Yeah,
> 
> 
> 
> That seems like Mars to me


its not much, but it probably was intentional

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## Damos40

> Yeah,
> 
> 
> 
> That seems like Mars to me


I guess. It's too vague to say.

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## GlennSimpson

> I never said it was impossible...just said it would be messy, and more work further down the line.
> 
> Yes, I would love a really fleshed out universe (Earth 1 or Earth Prime)..and I think that's what we are going to get with MOS and the sequels (BvS and JL movie).
> 
> They don't need to connect it to Arrowverse to flush it out...they can do that with the other movies.
> 
> It's not as easy as that...in comics, you can always retcon everything....not all villains in Arrow are awesome (or as Badass) as their comic counterparts (Count Vertigo....Deadshot? Although Deadshot's character is improving).
> 
> The problem is that they would have to use that specific version of the character (if they were to connect...and they probably would have to get the same actors to play it. Well, they don't have to, but I can imagine all the outcries if they don't, especially if it's an important character).
> ...


Just wanted to point out that within the boundaries of TV and movies, having characters cross over is extremely rare.   We don't get to see Rambo meet the Terminator (although they did manage Freddy vs Jason). I'm not just talking about super-hero movies.  And while I understand you might prefer they do their own thing, surely the fact that Marvel did it first wouldn't stop you from enjoying the end product?  Like you would avoid a Justice League movie JUST BECAUSE it was copying what Marvel did?

And sure, DC could manage to screw it up, but the pretty much the foundation for being successful is looking at what another successful entity did and do the same thing as much as you can.  That's like saying that one athlete shouldn't try to play his position like another very successful pro athlete.  Do what works, make your money.

At the end of the day, for me, the good of tying it together outweighs the bad, and with most of the reasons people give why it wouldn't, there's usually some example in comics or in other franchises where they'd done something similar and been successful with it.  I think DC isn't doing it because that extra bit of effort is more than they care to put into it.  What they are doing is certainly the easier way of doing it, even if they are leaving money on the table.

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## The Kid

Connecting movies and TV shows is unnecessary. Even in the comics, they technically take place in the same universe but is Wonder Woman in her title anything like in the Justice League? Having multiple takes of different characters would be great imo and TV creators wouldn't have to change their plans and stories based on what's going on in the movies. I like Marvel's plan but that's not the only way to do it. At the end of the day, I just want good movies and good TV shows. It doesn't matter to me whether they are connected or not

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## Triple J

*Schmoes know Exclusive Interview with Lex Luthor!*




> Speaking to the Schmoes about the script for the still untitled sequel (BATMAN VS SUPERMAN), Mr. Eisenberg told the Schmoes he was *very impressed* with the script, saying it was a GREAT script; which ultimately led to him taking on the iconic role......Mr. Eisenberg will begin filming in exactly *one month* from now.
> 
> On the internet firestorm that followed after Jesse Eisenberg was cast, the Schmoes were able to get his take on the controversy. In a nutshell, Mr. Eisenberg stays far away from the internet and with it, the comments that take personal shots at the actor himself. He mentioned that he doesnt care about what people say about him or his casting. He doesnt read that kind of stuff instead, opting to focus on the character, the prep and the script only and not what people think of him.


Source: http://schmoesknow.com/exclusive-int...uperman/22985/

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## Triple J

> Just wanted to point out that within the boundaries of TV and movies, having characters cross over is extremely rare.   We don't get to see Rambo meet the Terminator (although they did manage Freddy vs Jason). I'm not just talking about super-hero movies.  And while I understand you might prefer they do their own thing, surely the fact that Marvel did it first wouldn't stop you from enjoying the end product?  Like you would avoid a Justice League movie JUST BECAUSE it was copying what Marvel did?
> 
> And sure, DC could manage to screw it up, but the pretty much the foundation for being successful is looking at what another successful entity did and do the same thing as much as you can.  That's like saying that one athlete shouldn't try to play his position like another very successful pro athlete.  Do what works, make your money.
> 
> At the end of the day, for me, the good of tying it together outweighs the bad, and with most of the reasons people give why it wouldn't, there's usually some example in comics or in other franchises where they'd done something similar and been successful with it.  I think DC isn't doing it because that extra bit of effort is more than they care to put into it.  What they are doing is certainly the easier way of doing it, even if they are leaving money on the table.


Of course, not.

But, yeah, as you pointed it out, I would prefer them to not connect everything (plus, it gives an opportunity to set different tones for other characters, characters like Shazam). It seems like DC/WB is going with the realistic take on their characters...if that's the case, we probably wouldn't say comic counterparts of many DC characters (We will get something adapted).

I do love that...Adapted material is a different take on the character, but I also want to see comic book version (or something close to it) of the characters.

I want to see a fun movie with Shazam (not sure if that's possible in DC's realistic world). It's going to be a drastic change (although they can set it up slowly...by making SvB and JL movie lighter).

Of course, there is no harm in copying...but the problem is, Marvel set it up so that they can connect everything. DC on the other hand has already put in a lot of work without planning to connect it (as far as we know).

Yes, they can still do it, with more work on their part (although I prefer them to invest that effort/time into making other movies - a WW movie, an AM movie and so forth, rather on trying to connect everything).

Of course, it will also save them a lot of effort, if they are planning to bring Green Arrow to JL (unlikely though). Flash on the other hand is something we gotta see.

Yeah, I do get your points and to an extent, I agree. But, overall, I prefer them to not connect everything.

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## Triple J

> Connecting movies and TV shows is unnecessary. *Even in the comics, they technically take place in the same universe but is Wonder Woman in her title anything like in the Justice League?* Having multiple takes of different characters would be great imo and TV creators wouldn't have to change their plans and stories based on what's going on in the movies. I like Marvel's plan but that's not the only way to do it. At the end of the day, I just want good movies and good TV shows. It doesn't matter to me whether they are connected or not


That is also a great point.

Same goes for Batman. In JL, Batman is more badass (although in the new 52 universe, he is less knowledgeable and more human).

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## Triple J

> Not long now!! Can't wait for Batman&WonderWoman costumes, by our favorite designer


Micheal Wilkinson via Twitter

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## Blackest Knight

BncsTOSCYAAl99e.jpg

And here's a very brief peek at the new Batmobile. Supposedly a full shot tomorrow.

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## bob fett

Were gonna be teased with these sneak peaks for the next two years.Sigh.

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## Slade Wilson

> Micheal Wilkinson via Twitter


Sry man but 4 posts in a row? That could already count as spamming. You guys need to learn to use the Edit button. Seriously. Isnt this regulated on this website by the mods? On other forums even double posting is actually prohibited. And 4 short posts in a row is a bit extreme and really clogging up the thread IMO. There is a reason why multiple postings in a row is forbidden on most forums. I am kinda surprised that the mods seem to allow that on these forums. I mean this is a discussion thread not a chatbox.

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## Melv

A double post is when someone repeats a post accidentally. Spamming is when a person repeats the same thing over and over. Neither are when someone posts two entirely different things one after the other. Why does it matter to you? If it was one post there'd still be the same amount of information there. Each post is a separate entity.

I'd understand slightly if they had an annoying signature gif or something that took up a lot of room every post but they don't. Get over it.

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## Triple J

Arrow Finale New Trailer & Flash First Look

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## Inertia

> Arrow Finale New Trailer & Flash First Look


I love it! :Wink:

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## napolid

> Sry man but 4 posts in a row? That could already count as spamming. You guys need to learn to use the Edit button. Seriously. Isnt this regulated on this website by the mods? On other forums even double posting is actually prohibited. And 4 short posts in a row is a bit extreme and really clogging up the thread IMO. There is a reason why multiple postings in a row is forbidden on most forums. I am kinda surprised that the mods seem to allow that on these forums. I mean this is a discussion thread not a chatbox.


God get over yourself

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## Robotman

> Arrow Finale New Trailer & Flash First Look


Sweet! Roy with a mask and bow and also the Suicide Squad is showing up! Can't wait!

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## Triple J

> Sweet! Roy with a mask and bow and also the Suicide Squad is showing up! Can't wait!


And League of Assassins  :Big Grin:

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## Slade Wilson

Whats with the "get over yourself" flaming against me? I am just expressing my opinion that I dont like it if a thread is stuffed with 4 posts in a row by the same person. Also I was not attacking anyone with this on a personal level. Telling me "to get over myself" is a personal inflammatory attack to put me down. Do it again and I WILL report to a mod that I am being harassed and regarded with hostility. this new community was specifically created to not have this kind of thing again and therefore I will not tolerate it. I only signed up on these forums because of the new community rules since I despise the way it used to be around here. If I am being attacked like this I will leave this foruma again. I dont need this shit in my life.

Now back to topic:

While its great that you post the Arrow stuff, I think you kinda post it in the wrong thread. This thread is about the cinematic DC Universe (meaning the upcoming DCU films) and not the TV shows. You should post Arrow stuff in the Arrow thread....And I think one of the forum rules is to not derail the threads with off topic stuff too much. I mean no offense with this and I dont mean to offend or upset but just wanted to say that IMO Arrow videos etc. dont really belong in here since Arrow is not part of the DC cinematic universe.

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## GlennSimpson

I suspect the problem is, most of us are straining to adapt to the constraints of the new board rules, and having someone who isn't even a mod and who appears to be new to the boards tell those of us who have been here for years that we're still not posting correctly is a bit off-putting. You have a right to your opinion about how people should post, but I wouldn't be surprised if you get some pushback.

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## Slade Wilson

well the webmasters introduction post for the new community was quite clear on the matter. Those who cant abide by the new rules are not welcome here. I believe his exact words were "Go away" to those people. I was very impressed by that and how determined and unrelenting CBR was in their stance when rebooting the forums. Its why I signed up for the forums. Because I believed there is finally a forum now where personal attacks or hostilities will no longer be an issue and that those who engage in such behavior would be rooted out and banned without mercy. the Internet has turned into a very harsh and cruel place to be in and I was impressed that finally a large community would take a stand against such things.

I love comics and movies way too much to let my passion for them be tainted and stained with hostilities and making me feel hurt or bullied because some people dont know how to respond to criticism or something they dont like in a non-hostile way. And if its going to be like that despite all the promises this new community made about it being free of such darkness from now on, then I will remove myself from this sickening and hostile environment. I am here to celebrate and share my love for comics, not to be engaged with hostility because people dont like what I am saying. And I will fully inform the staff of CBR of my reasons for leaving then so they might hopefully tighten their persecution of such behavior in the future so that others wont have to feel the same way I do. I am not leaving just yet but any more of such hostilities against me as a person and I will.

----------


## Triple J

*Batman & Batmobile*



Via Zack Snyder on Twitter

----------


## Triple J

> While its great that you post the Arrow stuff, I think you kinda post it in the wrong thread. This thread is about the cinematic DC Universe (meaning the upcoming DCU films) and not the TV shows. You should post Arrow stuff in the Arrow thread....And I think one of the forum rules is to not derail the threads with off topic stuff too much. I mean no offense with this and I dont mean to offend or upset but just wanted to say that IMO Arrow videos etc. dont really belong in here since Arrow is not part of the DC cinematic universe.


Universe(s) in the thread title...this thread isn't just about the main cinematic universe...it's also about other universe DC/WB might be building (Shazam, Vertigo....and Arrowverse is part of that. There is a chance that Arrowverse might be connected to the main universe...if not, then they might be connected to an off universe movie starring Green Arrow; there are all sorts of possibilities).

----------


## Blackest Knight

> I suspect the problem is, most of us are straining to adapt to the constraints of the new board rules, and having someone who isn't even a mod and who appears to be new to the boards tell those of us who have been here for years that we're still not posting correctly is a bit off-putting. You have a right to your opinion about how people should post, but I wouldn't be surprised if you get some pushback.


I agree with you 100%.

I have no problem with someone posting multiple posts as long as it's not spam--and that was *NOT* spam. To even imply that or complain about it is absurd and ignorant to the point of showing a basic lack of reading comprehension.

I don't know who this poster thinks he is, but he isn't a moderator and he certainly doesn't speak for me or anyone else here but himself.

Keep up the good work, Jeevanjacobjohn. Your contributions here in this thread are appreciated.

----------


## Diamond

Batman being in the first revealed photos does not give me hope for the film. I know I'm probably exaggerating, but all the changes in the movie have made me pessimistic.

----------


## krazijoe

> Batman being in the first revealed photos does not give me hope for the film. I know I'm probably exaggerating, but all the changes in the movie have made me pessimistic.


What changes are those?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Batman being in the first revealed photos does not give me hope for the film. I know I'm probably exaggerating, but all the changes in the movie have made me pessimistic.


Bats looks cool to me there, FWIW.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Bats looks cool to me there, FWIW.


DITTO. Times 10.  :Cool: 

I cannot wait to see Gal Gadot in the Wonder Woman armor! The suspense is killing me!  :EEK!: 

By the way, does anyone have a screen capture yet or a link to one of The Flash TV series logo from today's Arrow finale trailer? The Flash logo looks incredible!!

Such an awesome time to be a DC fan, YES!!!

----------


## GlennSimpson

> DITTO. Times 10. 
> 
> I cannot wait to see Gal Gadot in the Wonder Woman armor! The suspense is killing me! 
> 
> By the way, does anyone have a screen capture yet or a link to one of The Flash TV series logo from today's Arrow finale trailer? The Flash logo looks incredible!!
> 
> Such an awesome time to be a DC fan, YES!!!


Not sure if this will work but maybe you can get what you want here: https://www.facebook.com/CWTheFlash

----------


## Diamond

> What changes are those?


First, WB say that this is going to be basically MoS 2 with Batman as a central character but never stealing the spotlight. Then, they start adding Wonder Woman and other  ties to a future DC cinematic universe. Not that I'm against it, but this made me think of Iron Man 2 and how the references and build-up to future movies hurt it.

And let's not forget that apparently Affleck has had some fights with Snyder and Goyer about the movie. The last rumor says that he brought a new writer to change the previous script.

----------


## krazijoe

> First, WB say that this is going to be basically MoS 2 with Batman as a central character but never stealing the spotlight. Then, they start adding Wonder Woman and other  ties to a future DC cinematic universe. Not that I'm against it, but this made me think of Iron Man 2 and how the references and build-up to future movies hurt it.
> 
> And let's not forget that apparently Affleck has had some fights with Snyder and Goyer about the movie. The last rumor says that he brought a new writer to change the previous script.


So  your annoyed at rumors and the inclusion of supporting casts? I don't see how any of the true information, that is out there, is bad.

----------


## Triple J

> Batman being in the first revealed photos does not give me hope for the film. I know I'm probably exaggerating, but all the changes in the movie have made me pessimistic.


That's just marketing. Batman is a big name..probably the biggest, so it makes sense that they reveal him first (In any case, what else are they going to reveal? They are making a couple of changes to the Superman costume, but those are all minor changes...not much hype, compared to Batsuite).




> Keep up the good work, Jeevanjacobjohn. Your contributions here in this thread are appreciated.


Thank you  :Smile:

----------


## Triple J

> DITTO. Times 10. 
> 
> I cannot wait to see Gal Gadot in the Wonder Woman armor! The suspense is killing me! 
> 
> By the way, does anyone have a screen capture yet or a link to one of The Flash TV series logo from today's Arrow finale trailer? The Flash logo looks incredible!!
> 
> Such an awesome time to be a DC fan, YES!!!


It does look awesome!







> First, WB say that this is going to be basically MoS 2 with Batman as a central character but never stealing the spotlight. Then, they start adding Wonder Woman and other  ties to a future DC cinematic universe. Not that I'm against it, but this made me think of Iron Man 2 and how the references and build-up to future movies hurt it.
> 
> And let's not forget that apparently Affleck has had some fights with Snyder and Goyer about the movie. The last rumor says that he brought a new writer to change the previous script.


Yeah, but the problem is most of them are rumors...and you have to look at the order the news was released.

It's easy to conclude that WB/DC were adding more characters to build up the hype...but they may have planned that a long time ago (there is no evidence suggesting that WB/DC didn't plan to add WW and Cyborg last year).

On the other hand, there is some evidence that the sequel was going to include other characters (Zack Snyder's interview right before MOS release...he talks about plans for sequels and what they would like to do).

----------


## Triple J

Gotham - First Look

Just saw this online - Gotham first look (The team talking about what you can expect in Gotham). Check it out:

----------


## Blackest Knight

> It does look awesome!


Glorious. Simply glorious!  :Big Grin: 

Thanks, J!

----------


## Hapless Henchman

> First, WB say that this is going to be basically MoS 2 with Batman as a central character but never stealing the spotlight. Then, they start adding Wonder Woman and other  ties to a future DC cinematic universe. Not that I'm against it, but this made me think of Iron Man 2 and how the references and build-up to future movies hurt it.
> 
> And let's not forget that apparently Affleck has had some fights with Snyder and Goyer about the movie. The last rumor says that he brought a new writer to change the previous script.


Where does this stuff come from? The BM vs SM movie (or whatever it ends up being called) _is_ a MOS sequel. It has Henry Cavill and his entire supporting cast returning. Batman is a supporting character with WW in a glorified cameo (basically just a few scenes). Cyborg will most definitely be a cameo (probably as Victor Stone) and that is it.

As for the other rumors, they are just that: Rumors. Terrio was brought in to polish the script, not rewrite it from scratch. This is done all the time on nearly every movie ever made.

----------


## Hapless Henchman

> It does look awesome!


That is pretty awesome. Thanks for posting. Looking forward to The Flash series.

----------


## Robotman

> Batman being in the first revealed photos does not give me hope for the film. I know I'm probably exaggerating, but all the changes in the movie have made me pessimistic.


What would be the point in showing a pic of Superman? We already saw him in the last movie. They're revealing the new Batman. That's big news any day.

----------


## RD!

If DC don't take advantage of Arrow's success it'll be a shame for the studio and the fans.

It is without a doubt the best comic book inspired television show ever, I'd say one of the better television shows ever and also probably the best superhero adaption. If not the best, certainly one of them. While Green Lantern flopped, the Nolan movies were off on their own and Batman Vs Superman got delayed, Arrow has been building the DCU all on it's own. Thanks to that one program, we got The Flash series and it has inspired things like Gotham and Constantine. 

I don't know if every live-action DC show will be able to fit in the one universe due to the different channels and all that, but I think Arrow and Flash should at the very least. When the Justice League movie comes out, Green Arrow needs to be on the roster and played by Stephen Amell. 

DC need to catch up now. Thor (Thor??!!) has had two movies AND will have teamed up with the Avengers on screen TWICE before Superman gets his sequel in cinemas. What kind of world is this lol? There will be two MCU television series next year, plus FOUR netflix series. If Warner Bros really want to expand DC comics on screen, they need to announce that the CW shows take place in the same universe as Man of Steel yesterday.

----------


## Robotman

I'm all for combining the Arrow and The Flash tv shows with the MoSverse. With just one movie WB/DC would be caught up with their competitors. MoS 2 introduces Batman, Wonder Woman, and Cyborg. Add to that GA and Flash. Then all the Justice League movie needs to do is introduce the new Green Lantern. There you go. A full roster. That way they don't have to spend half the movie with intros and origins.

----------


## Triple J

> If DC don't take advantage of Arrow's success it'll be a shame for the studio and the fans.
> 
> It is without a doubt the best comic book inspired television show ever, I'd say one of the better television shows ever and also probably the best superhero adaption. If not the best, certainly one of them. While Green Lantern flopped, the Nolan movies were off on their own and Batman Vs Superman got delayed, Arrow has been building the DCU all on it's own. Thanks to that one program, we got The Flash series and it has inspired things like Gotham and Constantine. 
> 
> I don't know if every live-action DC show will be able to fit in the one universe due to the different channels and all that, but I think Arrow and Flash should at the very least. When the Justice League movie comes out, Green Arrow needs to be on the roster and played by Stephen Amell. 
> 
> DC need to catch up now. Thor (Thor??!!) has had two movies AND will have teamed up with the Avengers on screen TWICE before Superman gets his sequel in cinemas. What kind of world is this lol? There will be two MCU television series next year, plus FOUR netflix series. If Warner Bros really want to expand DC comics on screen, they need to announce that the CW shows take place in the same universe as Man of Steel yesterday.


I don't think Arrow needs to be on the roster...he isn't a founding member of JL(A), unless they go with the JLA: Year One story line.

Plus, I am not sure..they already have a human being on the team. Do they need one more? (There are people who still question Batman's role in JL).

Alright..I see your points, but so what?

Yeah, they have 4 tv series and a ton of movies, so what?

(not trying to be rude..just asking!)

Quantity isn't everything, right? Quality is the stuff that matters..and I am sure you know that.

I think DC can catch up with just 2 movies (SvB and JL)..with solid stories and proper execution.

Plus, isn't there already an archer in another super team (Hawkeye in Avengers..granted he isn't as popular, but I think we should get someone else in JL).




> I'm all for combining the Arrow and The Flash tv shows with the MoSverse. With just one movie WB/DC would be caught up with their competitors. MoS 2 introduces Batman, Wonder Woman, and Cyborg. Add to that GA and Flash. Then all the Justice League movie needs to do is introduce the new Green Lantern. There you go. A full roster. That way they don't have to spend half the movie with intros and origins.


They don't have to spend any time with origins....Batman and Superman - check.

With the others characters, they could use introduce them..heck, they could start the movie in the middle of a battle and introduce characters slowly...there are several different ways to do it:

New person joins the team POV
Channel exposition - (2 years ago, after the Metropolis incident...various heroes around the world go together and formed a team to combat future threats..or something like that).

Again, it comes down to execution.

----------


## FightMaster

I've always enjoyed watching the Justice League animated series.  Now if they can make a series like that and then do a movie based on a major event that would be awesome.  The problem with putting together a DC cinematic universe is that DC really only have very few characters that have widespread appeal (unlike Marvel).  DC has Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, The Flash, and Wonder Woman, and maybe Aquaman.  That's pretty much the characters the general audience is aware of.  Compare that to Spiderman, characters in X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic 4.... Marvel just have more to work with... of course it doesn't help that the rights to all those properties are not under the same movie making company... anyhow, I'm just rambling at this point....

I really hope there would eventually be a DC vs Marvel movie in the future.  That would be EPIC!!!

----------


## Sacred Knight

Marvel's characters have no more innate widespread appeal than DC's does.  It didn't just come out of the box like this for Marvel, they planned their movie verse, the fans took to it with the major characters which then allowed the lesser known characters to appear and begin to appeal in their own way.  If DC can do the same then they're fine.  But that's the challenge they face.  There's one try under their belt in GL that failed miserably, so hopefully they learn from those mistakes.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If DC don't take advantage of Arrow's success it'll be a shame for the studio and the fans.


The show was #119 in the Nielsen ratings last season and most likely won't be that high this season. I love the show, but let's not go overboard on how successful the show is.  :Wink:

----------


## Triple J

> I've always enjoyed watching the Justice League animated series.  Now if they can make a series like that and then do a movie based on a major event that would be awesome.  *The problem with putting together a DC cinematic universe is that DC really only have very few characters that have widespread appeal (unlike Marvel)*.  DC has Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, The Flash, and Wonder Woman, and maybe Aquaman.  That's pretty much the characters the general audience is aware of.  Compare that to Spiderman, characters in X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic 4.... Marvel just have more to work with... of course it doesn't help that the rights to all those properties are not under the same movie making company... anyhow, I'm just rambling at this point....
> 
> I really hope there would eventually be a DC vs Marvel movie in the future.  That would be EPIC!!!


Not really. Avengers? General audience didn't know about Avengers....the only Marvel superheroes who were popular were Wolverine and Spiderman (I know this because I was part of general audience, up until recently).

They introduced a lot more Marvel characters to the general audience (Wide spread appeal because they have had exposure...they had movies for people to watch).

DC heroes, on the other hand, hasn't had that exposure...once they do, they will have the same widespread appeal.

----------


## Pinsir

> Marvel's characters have no more innate widespread appeal than DC's does.  It didn't just come out of the box like this for Marvel, they planned their movie verse, the fans took to it with the major characters which then allowed the lesser known characters to appear and begin to appeal in their own way.  If DC can do the same then they're fine.  But that's the challenge they face.  There's one try under their belt in GL that failed miserably, so hopefully they learn from those mistakes.


There is really no proof of this. Both the Dark Knight trilogy and MoS grossed more than pretty much every Marvel movie, meanwhile the major flop GL is still the only major flop. Sure it was bad but Marvel had its initial failure too, Incredible Hulk. In fact think about it

> 2008: Iron Man and Hulk - Though Iron Man did well it was completely outshadowed by Dark Knight and as for Hulk, lets just say there is a reason there won't be another solo film for him
> 2010: Iron Man 2 - Enough said was widely considered a disappointment
> 2011: Thor 1 and Captain 1 - Faith restored in Marvel
> 2012: Avengers - LOL MARVELS WINNING GIVE UP DC

Marvel rise was hardly inevitable and if we were in 2010 just after Iron Man 2 we would be saying that Marvel was probably doomed.

----------


## krazijoe

> There is really no proof of this. Both the Dark Knight trilogy and MoS grossed more than pretty much every Marvel movie, meanwhile the major flop GL is still the only major flop. Sure it was bad but Marvel had its initial failure too, Incredible Hulk. In fact think about it
> 
> > 2008: Iron Man and Hulk - Though Iron Man did well it was completely outshadowed by Dark Knight and as for Hulk, lets just say there is a reason there won't be another solo film for him
> > 2010: Iron Man 2 - Enough said was widely considered a disappointment
> > 2011: Thor 1 and Captain 1 - Faith restored in Marvel
> > 2012: Avengers - LOL MARVELS WINNING GIVE UP DC
> 
> Marvel rise was hardly inevitable and if we were in 2010 just after Iron Man 2 we would be saying that Marvel was probably doomed.


There will be another Hulk movie.

----------


## Triple J

Batsuit Colored [Fan Edited]

----------


## Kencana

Tbh, I think we will see more Batman, Batman, Superman, and Batman movies. Justice League movie will just focus on Batman & Superman. The Dark Knight is a huge success. DC/WB must think there's some kind of magic at Batman so they will make more Batman reboot. I bet there wil be 2123232 Batman & Superman reboot before Wonder Woman solo movie.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> Tbh, I think we will see more Batman, Batman, Superman, and Batman movies. Justice League movie will just focus on Batman & Superman. The Dark Knight is a huge success. DC/WB must think there's some kind of magic at Batman so they will make more Batman reboot. I bet there wil be 2123232 Batman & Superman reboot before Wonder Woman solo movie.


Batman is a more popular character than Wonder Woman.

----------


## The Kid

I think Batman won't get a solo for a while tbh. Affleck is just signed for Justice League films after BvS so the next Batman solo will probably be after 2017 at the very least. Best situation would be to keep Batman in Justice League (because marketing appeal will run through him) and do another Batman movie with a new actor when the Dark Knight trilogy has been done for a while. Preferably after 2020.

That said, if BvS bombs, I think Batman will be back as a lead sooner rather than later so let's hope for the best

----------


## Triple J

*Flash Trailer -* Video

----------


## Jameszahra

> I think Batman won't get a solo for a while tbh. Affleck is just signed for Justice League films after BvS so the next Batman solo will probably be after 2017 at the very least. Best situation would be to keep Batman in Justice League (because marketing appeal will run through him) and do another Batman movie with a new actor when the Dark Knight trilogy has been done for a while. Preferably after 2020.
> 
> That said, if BvS bombs, I think Batman will be back as a lead sooner rather than later so let's hope for the best


I agree, I would like to dee a year one kind of story for this new batman, but only once he's been established through at least another 2 movies. I don't think BVS will flop, I trustsnyder to do the right thing, and so far batman's looking pretty good, not to mention cavil is by far the best superman to hit the screen.....But I think thats only half of it, just as important as the heroes is the villains. If they're creative enough, this can be great.............glad to see dc making some good moves in cinema. and I also quite like the darker tone of this new DC universe, I think it separates them nicely from marvel, and theres a chance it appeals to wider audience

----------


## Kencana

> I agree, I would like to dee a year one kind of story for this new batman, but only once he's been established through at least another 2 movies. I don't think BVS will flop, I trustsnyder to do the right thing, and so far batman's looking pretty good, not to mention cavil is by far the best superman to hit the screen.....But I think thats only half of it, just as important as the heroes is the villains. If they're creative enough, this can be great.............glad to see dc making some good moves in cinema. and I also quite like the darker tone of this new DC universe, I think it separates them nicely from marvel, and theres a chance it appeals to wider audience


What would DC be without Batman & Superman? At Marvel, if there's no Hulk or Iron Man, there's still Captain America, Thor, etc. But DC/WB without Batman & Superman?  Whoa. I cannot imagine that.

----------


## RD!

> I don't think Arrow needs to be on the roster...he isn't a founding member of JL(A), unless they go with the JLA: Year One story line.
> 
> Plus, I am not sure..they already have a human being on the team. Do they need one more? (There are people who still question Batman's role in JL).


I think so, yes. Especially considering the Man of Steel world is a lot closer to ours than the MCU, for example.




> Alright..I see your points, but so what?
> 
> Yeah, they have 4 tv series and a ton of movies, so what?
> 
> (not trying to be rude..just asking!)
> 
> Quantity isn't everything, right? Quality is the stuff that matters..and I am sure you know that.


I agree quality is better than quality. Man of Steel was good, but it isn't universally loved or acclaimed. 




> I think DC can catch up with just 2 movies (SvB and JL)..with solid stories and proper execution.


If DC make BvS and JL then they still haven't created a 'cinematic universe' in the same way Marvel have. They've just given Man of Steel two sequels, and will have set up the possibility for spin-offs even further down the line. Marvels universe is so good because you don't NEED to see everything to understand the movie or show you're watching, but there are references. 




> Plus, isn't there already an archer in another super team (Hawkeye in Avengers..granted he isn't as popular, but I think we should get someone else in JL).


Even if he isn't on the team or an official member, the actor deserves a part in the movie and I think confirmation that these movies exist in the same universe as the show will only add to DC's credibility and will make their universe seem more advanced than it is. Besides, what is the point of two live-action universes running simultaneously? I know which one I'll be interested in and which one I can do without.




> What would DC be without Batman & Superman? At Marvel, if there's no Hulk or Iron Man, there's still Captain America, Thor, etc. But DC/WB without Batman & Superman?  Whoa. I cannot imagine that.


I think they'd be fine. They'd still have Wonder Woman, Green Lantern(s), Flash, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Aquaman etc.

All of those characters are at least as iconic as Captain America, Iron man etc.

Who could have imagined Marvel without Spider-Man? Or Wolverine? Or the X-Men. Marvel have built a universe without their biggest stars. DC could do it too, they just haven't AND because they do have access to Superman and Batman they are in a better position, which means the fact that Marvel are out-performing them is even more Un-excuseable.

----------


## Jameszahra

> What would DC be without Batman & Superman? At Marvel, if there's no Hulk or Iron Man, there's still Captain America, Thor, etc. But DC/WB without Batman & Superman?  Whoa. I cannot imagine that.


you're right, bats and superman are what will keep them afloat, yes there other characters, but would they be enough? I don't think so. good characters, but not iconic enough IMO

----------


## GlennSimpson

> you're right, bats and superman are what will keep them afloat, yes there other characters, but would they be enough? I don't think so. good characters, but not iconic enough IMO


Luckily, Superman and Batman aren't going anywhere, so it doesn't really matter.

It's a bit like saying Pizza Hut couldn't survive without pizza.  Yeah, so?

----------


## Triple J

> I think so, yes. Especially considering the Man of Steel world is a lot closer to ours than the MCU, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree quality is better than quality. Man of Steel was good, but it isn't universally loved or acclaimed.


Of course...it has the audience divided (but my understanding is that many of the general audience loved the movie). It's just the critics and the fan base (partly) who disliked the movie.

(MOS did sell a lot of Blurays....don't like people would have bought it if they didn't like the movie).




> If DC make BvS and JL then they still haven't created a 'cinematic universe' in the same way Marvel have. They've just given Man of Steel two sequels, and will have set up the possibility for spin-offs even further down the line. Marvels universe is so good because you don't NEED to see everything to understand the movie or show you're watching, but there are references.


That's just it....why should DC do it like Marvel did it?

Marvel showed us one day to build a cinematic universe...but that isn't the absolutely right way.




> Even if he isn't on the team or an official member, the actor deserves a part in the movie and I think confirmation that these movies exist in the same universe as the show will only add to DC's credibility and will make their universe seem more advanced than it is. Besides, what is the point of two live-action universes running simultaneously? I know which one I'll be interested in and which one I can do without.


Like I mentioned earlier, Multiverse. DC/WB has made it clear that they are building a *multiverse*...so, it makes sense that there are two live action universe simultaneously (and I doubt that they are stopping at two).

From the interviews I have seen, it seems that there will be sort of like a Vertigo universe (or maybe just solo universes for Vertigo properties they are working on).....The list also included Shazam, so I am guessing they are going to give him a different universe (Which also makes sense...if they want to build the character).

The main universe is dark and gritty...Shazam is a better character for a lighter universe. I think, if a good solo movie, DC/WB can make Shazam popular again (among kids). But, they would need to make the movie a lot lighter...parents are less likely to take their kids to darker movies.

----------


## Triple J

> What would DC be without Batman & Superman? At Marvel, if there's no Hulk or Iron Man, there's still Captain America, Thor, etc. But DC/WB without Batman & Superman?  Whoa. I cannot imagine that.


They will be fine...Marvel gave Captain America and Thor movies because they had to. Do you think they would have done that if they had access to Spider-man and X-men?

Nope...chances are very very small for that.

Take away Batman and Superman..DC will be forced to do the same thing - give other characters more focus (then again, DC don't have to do it. They can just be happy with comics and animated shows, but I doubt that the investors will be happy with that).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Luckily, Superman and Batman aren't going anywhere, so it doesn't really matter.
> 
> It's a bit like saying Pizza Hut couldn't survive without pizza.  Yeah, so?


Iron Man wasn't remotely iconic only a few years ago, so anything is possible.

----------


## Slade Wilson

I absolutely LOVE Affleck as Batman. The Batsuit is adapted almost 1:1 from Millers Dark Knight Returns and is definitely (as promised by Snyder) something very different for a movie. While I do love the armor-Batman from Nolans films and the recent Arkham games, its very awesome to finally get a more comic book-esque Batman on the big screen. It almost even looks like the Batsuit from Arkham City.

Plus we finally get a physically very imposing Batman, who has the physique of Batman from the comics or the Arkham games. This looks way better than Bale ever did. I dont really get how comic book fans could still possibly complain about this new version of Batman. Its pretty damn perfect and I cant wait to this Batman come up against Cavills Superman. Now I definitely cant wait for the Wonder Woman costume. If its anything like this then its going to be amazing. Really happy with this. This will make the Affleck haters eat their fists lol

----------


## Triple J

DC TV Schedule (ET Time)

Monday 8 pm - Gotham (FOX)

Tuesday 8 pm - The Flash (CW)

Wednesday 8 pm - Arrow (CW)

Thursday - Nothing So Far

Friday 10 pm - Constantine (NBC)

----------


## The Kid

> What would DC be without Batman & Superman? At Marvel, if there's no Hulk or Iron Man, there's still Captain America, Thor, etc. But DC/WB without Batman & Superman?  Whoa. I cannot imagine that.


Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man were nobodies until the MCU era. They weren't popular characters, they became popular characters. DC can do the same with its not as well known characters

----------


## DebkoX

> DC TV Schedule (ET Time)
> 
> Monday 8 pm - Gotham (FOX)
> 
> Tuesday 8 pm - The Flash (CW)
> 
> Wednesday 8 pm - Arrow (CW)
> 
> Thursday - Nothing So Far
> ...


Fuck. When you put it that way. What a week!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man were nobodies until the MCU era. They weren't popular characters, they became popular characters. DC can do the same with its not as well known characters


Of course. There's absolutely no reason DC can't do the same thing.

----------


## DebkoX

Agreed. It will work.

----------


## Kencana

> Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man were nobodies until the MCU era. They weren't popular characters, they became popular characters. DC can do the same with its not as well known characters


Well... I hope so. Remember what happened when DC try to make movie outside Batman & Superman? Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, Catwoman, Supergirl, etc? Expect Red (Homage) & Watchmen, all of them failed miserably. No wonder DC/WB only make Batman/Superman movie. I'm saying this as DCU fans.

----------


## Triple J

Flash Full Extended Trailer

----------


## Triple J

Wow...I just saw the full extended trailer (right after I posted it).

Weather Wizard and Professor Zoom...I didn't notice anyone else (The guy with the wheel chair...his character seems familiar?).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well... I hope so. Remember what happened when DC try to make movie outside Batman & Superman? Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, Catwoman, Supergirl, etc? Expect Red (Homage) & Watchmen, all of them failed miserably. No wonder DC/WB only make Batman/Superman movie. I'm saying this as DCU fans.


Those failures had nothing to do regarding the characters, though. How many times did Captain America fail before the recent movies changed things?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Flash Full Extended Trailer


Oh, I'm definitely looking forward to the Fall!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Robotman

> Flash Full Extended Trailer


This looks a lot better than I was expecting! Can't wait!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> DC TV Schedule (ET Time)
> 
> Monday 8 pm - Gotham (FOX)
> 
> Tuesday 8 pm - The Flash (CW)
> 
> Wednesday 8 pm - Arrow (CW)
> 
> Thursday - Nothing So Far
> ...


This "Nothing So Far" show is getting a lot of hype.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Wow...I just saw the full extended trailer (right after I posted it).
> 
> Weather Wizard and Professor Zoom...I didn't notice anyone else (The guy with the wheel chair...his character seems familiar?).


Jeevan:

A request, please?

I'm searching all over the Internet for a screen capture of the blurred image of Professor Zoom from this trailer.  If you find one, would you be so kind as to share it with us here?

Thanks so much! And yes, the trailer is amazing!

----------


## Slade Wilson

Just saw the Flash trailer earlier tonight after watching the Arrow Finale and ...just wow. I cant believe this is just a TV show, it looks like a movie. Completely blew me away and the effects look outstanding. It probably will look this big only in the Pilot and scale back a bit for subsequent episodes but still - holy shit.

Btw I think the guy in the wheelchair is the character played by John Wesley Shipp (who played Flash in the 90s TV series)

Next TV Season is gonna be absolutely packed for me: Originals and Gotham on Monday, Agents of SHIELD and Flash on Tuesday, Arrow on Wednesday and Vampire Diaries on Thursday - plus Game of Thrones on sundays when Season 5 starts next April. And Agent Carter mid-season.

Life is good.

----------


## Blackest Knight

A very brief and very blurred glimpse of Professor Zoom from The Flash trailer (with thanks to Lone Necromancer for sharing this)...



Bring On The DCU Super Villains!!

----------


## Triple J

> Jeevan:
> 
> A request, please?
> 
> I'm searching all over the Internet for a screen capture of the blurred image of Professor Zoom from this trailer.  If you find one, would you be so kind as to share it with us here?
> 
> Thanks so much! And yes, the trailer is amazing!


Yeah, no problem.

I couldn't find anything...nothing yet, so far.

But, here is a screenshot I took (0:19 - 0:21 seconds):







> Just saw the Flash trailer earlier tonight after watching the Arrow Finale and ...just wow. I cant believe this is just a TV show, it looks like a movie. Completely blew me away and the effects look outstanding. It probably will look this big only in the Pilot and scale back a bit for subsequent episodes but still - holy shit.
> 
> Btw I think the guy in the wheelchair is the character played by John Wesley Shipp (who played Flash in the 90s TV series)
> 
> Next TV Season is gonna be absolutely packed for me: Originals and Gotham on Monday, Agents of SHIELD and Flash on Tuesday, Arrow on Wednesday and Vampire Diaries on Thursday - plus Game of Thrones on sundays when Season 5 starts next April. And Agent Carter mid-season.
> 
> Life is good.


The effects are great...WB is giving a bigger budget for Flash.

Oh...so that's the guy who played Flash...I had heard that he was going to get a role.

All along the trailer...I was thinking about Dr. Elias from the new 52 version (not sure if he had made an appearance in the old universe). He works with Flash and ends up being his enemy in the end.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Yeah, no problem.
> 
> I couldn't find anything...nothing yet, so far.
> 
> But, here is a screenshot I took (0:19 - 0:21 seconds):


Thanks! :^)

I'm going to compare that to a pic of the guy playing Detective Thawne on the show. Initial glance says they have similar jaw lines, but will check to be sure.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Yeah, no problem.
> 
> I couldn't find anything...nothing yet, so far.
> 
> But, here is a screenshot I took (0:19 - 0:21 seconds):


I know that original image is incredibly blurred, but it sure seems like that is Rick Cosnett's Detective Eddie Thawne underneath that heavily-blurred glimpse of Zoom to me...

----------


## TommyJones1945

Hooked. Ladies and gentlemen, I. AM. HOOKED.

----------


## GlennSimpson

I'm sure the movie version will be so much better.

----------


## Slade Wilson

> I'm sure the movie version will be so much better.


Whats with the constant negativity towards the TV Flash ? Honestly I dont even care if the movie version will be better or not. As a huge fan of the Arrowverse and the comics I am much more pumped for the TV Flash then I am for some movie Flash that we know absolutely nothing about yet. In fact the movie version will have its work cut out for it, if it wants to top this.


About Zoom:

I think its impossible to tell if that is really Gosnett in that blurred image (It could be anybody really) but i dont think the scriptwriters (which includes Johns) would name a character "Thawne" and then make someone else the Reverse Flash. Just like I am sure that Cisco will become Vibe and Caitlin will be Killer Frost down the line. They picked these characters for a reason.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> Whats with the constant negativity towards the TV Flash ? Honestly I dont even care if the movie version will be better or not. As a huge fan of the Arrowverse and the comics I am much more pumped for the TV Flash then I am for some movie Flash that we know absolutely nothing about yet. In fact the movie version will have its work cut out for it, if it wants to top this.


I was being sarcastic.  I don't think the movies could do any better, and therefore they should use this Flash in future movies, rather than creating a different movie version.

----------


## Robotman

> I was being sarcastic.  I don't think the movies could do any better, and therefore they should use this Flash in future movies, rather than creating a different movie version.


if the show turns out to be as good as this trailer looked, im all for using Grant Gustin in a Flash movie. at least then there would be a bigger costume budget so they could fix the baggy loose fitting problem that the tv costume seems to have. 

would love to see this fanboy version of Barry geek out over meeting Superman and Batman.

----------


## Clark_Kent

image.jpg

http://batman-news.com/2014/05/15/an...tmobile-photo/

----------


## Triple J

SvB (or BvS) Shooting Photos

----------


## Triple J



----------


## Triple J

*Animated Universe News:*

We already know that Aquaman is getting an animated feature film (hinted at the end of JL: War - *Spoilers* for those of you who have not seen it!).

Most people (including me) guessed that they were going to adapt the Throne of Atlantis storyline. Newsarama has reported that the film will also contain an origin for Aquaman. He will most likely start out as a human being (not knowing his connection to Atlantis, but will learn about it later on).

So, they are planning combine an Aquaman origin with a Throne of Atlantis storyline (which sounds awesome).

DC definitely seems to be putting more effort into other characters, not just Batman and Superman. I think AM getting an animated movie (focused on him) will probably be the first step to an Aquaman live action movie...what do you think guys?

Is there any chance that DC/WB is developing an AM movie?

Source: http://www.newsarama.com/21151-aquam...igin-film.html

----------


## Slade Wilson

Problem with Aquaman is that he is a tough sell to general audiences. I am not sure he could carry a solo movie at this point without it ending up to be a repeat of the Green Lantern debacle. Especially non-comic readers often look down on Aquaman and dont take him very seriously. He would be better serviced to appear in a JL film first and then depending how people respond to him decide wether or not they should give him his own film.

Btw isnt it utter ridiculous that although the Man of Steel 2 movie started filming now that WB still has not managed to announce an actual official title for the movie?

----------


## Robotman

I hope Aquaman at least gets a cameo in the Justice League movie. Rumors are circulating that a Namor movie may be heading to theaters in 2016. That could make WB think twice about an Aquaman flick.

----------


## Triple J

> Problem with Aquaman is that he is a tough sell to general audiences. I am not sure he could carry a solo movie at this point without it ending up to be a repeat of the Green Lantern debacle. Especially non-comic readers often look down on Aquaman and dont take him very seriously. He would be better serviced to appear in a JL film first and then depending how people respond to him decide wether or not they should give him his own film.
> 
> Btw isnt it utter ridiculous that although the Man of Steel 2 movie started filming now that WB still has not managed to announce an actual official title for the movie?


Yeah, that is something they have to built up. He will probably make an appearance in JL...and then get a solo film based on the reaction (I do hope that they show him as a badass superhero....we need people to think: Whoa...I didn't know Aquaman could do that!).

It is...but then again, we are still 2 years away from the release date. At this point, they don't really have much obligation to announce the title (but, I hope they do).

I was hoping for them to do something else today (Friday).

You know..to finish off the week (there is still time though).

This week, for the most part, has been a DC week.




> I hope Aquaman at least gets a cameo in the Justice League movie. Rumors are circulating that a Namor movie may be heading to theaters in 2016. That could make WB think twice about an Aquaman flick.


I hope too  :Smile:

----------


## Slade Wilson

> I do hope that they show him as a badass superhero....we need people to think: Whoa...I didn't know Aquaman could do that!


They even need to do this if they bring him in to shatter the illusion of "Superfriends" Aquaman right away in the minds of the general audience. Otherwise Aquaman wont work today.




> It is...but then again, we are still 2 years away from the release date. At this point, they don't really have much obligation to announce the title (but, I hope they do).


they also were not obligated to give us an image of Batman but virtually everyone was demanding it anyway. Marvel also wasnt obligated to reveal the title of Age of Ultron almost a year before they started shooting the movie. Yet they did. And WB did reveal the titles of Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises and Man of Steel before shooting began. Why cant they do it here as well?

----------


## Slade Wilson

DC artist Brett Booth (Batman/Superman) has posted a sketch of Flash in his new costume from the upcoming TV series on twitter! check it out, it looks awesome. Grant Gustin has made it, he has now been turned into comic book form  :Smile:

----------


## Triple J

> DC artist Brett Booth (Batman/Superman) has posted a sketch of Flash in his new costume from the upcoming TV series on twitter! check it out, it looks awesome. Grant Gustin has made it, he has now been turned into comic book form


Awesome  :Big Grin:

----------


## Blackest Knight

I just wanted to chime in that this is officially my favorite thread on the CBR Forums.  :Smile: 

Also, I didn't realize that wasn't a shot of an extra in those MOS 2 stills. That's Gal Gadot AKA Wonder Woman! Hot damn!

Man, the wait for shots of her in the WW armor is killing me, LOL!

----------


## Robotman

> I just wanted to chime in that this is officially my favorite thread on the CBR Forums. 
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that wasn't a shot of an extra in those MOS 2 stills. That's Gal Gadot AKA Wonder Woman! Hot damn!
> 
> Man, the wait for shots of her in the WW armor is killing me, LOL!


Yep Diana Prince in all her glory!
I guessing we won't see her in full Wonder Woman armor until the very end of the movie. Either during a huge climactic battle or as a way to set up the Justice League movie.

----------


## napolid

I got bored

----------


## Robotman

Closer look at Ms. Prince.

----------


## Triple J

> I just wanted to chime in that this is officially my favorite thread on the CBR Forums. 
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that wasn't a shot of an extra in those MOS 2 stills. That's Gal Gadot AKA Wonder Woman! Hot damn!
> 
> Man, the wait for shots of her in the WW armor is killing me, LOL!


I am glad that you think so  :Smile: 

Hahaha..yeah. I was hoping for them to post the shots last week (Fri or Sat).

We are still 2 years away from the movie...so, I understand if they don't release it for the next year (although I wish they would do it).

Speaking of releasing items, I wonder what they are planning to do for the next year. We are still 2 years away...so far, they have managed to release a bit of news every 2-3 weeks (and keep people talking..even if it's just talking smack!).




> Yep Diana Prince in all her glory!
> I guessing we won't see her in full Wonder Woman armor until the very end of the movie. Either during a huge climactic battle or as a way to set up the Justice League movie.


That's what I am guessing too.

----------


## Triple J

> I got bored


That looks awesome  :Big Grin:  Thank you, Napolid!




> Closer look at Ms. Prince.


Looks great. Hmm, so I am guessing WW is already familiar with man's world? (Could she be acting as a spy? I have heard rumors about that).

----------


## Triple J



----------


## Slade Wilson

> I got bored


Thanks! I just yesterday said to someone I wish that someone would colorize that sketch haha. Great job!

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Closer look at Ms. Prince.


I absolutely love that they darkened her hair for the role. PERFECT!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Blackest Knight

> I am glad that you think so 
> 
> Hahaha..yeah. I was hoping for them to post the shots last week (Fri or Sat).
> 
> We are still 2 years away from the movie...so, I understand if they don't release it for the next year (although I wish they would do it).
> 
> Speaking of releasing items, I wonder what they are planning to do for the next year. We are still 2 years away...so far, they have managed to release a bit of news every 2-3 weeks (and keep people talking..even if it's just talking smack!).


I think it's not a reach to say WB and DCE are going to work very hard to pull off some epic misdirection with announcements from CW's Flash in order to distract fans and the public from obsessing on MOS 2 and Justice League: "Pay no attention to those people behind the curtains on MOS2!! Hey, did we mention Wally West is coming to CW's Flash? Oh, and Gorilla Grodd and Captain Cold and Doctor Light! No, seriously, look at all these Flash announcements! Seriously!"  :Stick Out Tongue: 

The flip side is, paparazzi and obsessive fans near every shoot for MOS 2 are going to be stalking this production like there is no tomorrow looking to grab every pic they can. Sooner or later, a pic of Gadot in her WW armor is gonna have to be released. I don't think I'm being unrealistic when I say WB will want to be the ones to decide how & when to release the first movie pic of a live action Wonder Woman.

Because the day they do that? Everything and I mean everything superhero related--DC, Marvel, Image, you name it--is going to get pushed off of the front page by the first pic of an actress playing WW in a movie for the first time ever in our lives.

Forget Ben Affleck. The real big scoop on MOS 2 is going to be how WW looks and how well Gadot is playing her. That news will dwarf everything else. Believe it.

----------


## Triple J

> I think it's not a reach to say WB and DCE are going to work very hard to pull off some epic misdirection with announcements from CW's Flash in order to distract fans and the public from obsessing on MOS 2 and Justice League: "Pay no attention to those people behind the curtains on MOS2!! Hey, did we mention Wally West is coming to CW's Flash? Oh, and Gorilla Grodd and Captain Cold and Doctor Light! No, seriously, look at all these Flash announcements! Seriously!" 
> 
> The flip side is, paparazzi and obsessive fans near every shoot for MOS 2 are going to be stalking this production like there is no tomorrow looking to grab every pic they can. Sooner or later, a pic of Gadot in her WW armor is gonna have to be released. I don't think I'm being unrealistic when I say WB will want to be the ones to decide how & when to release the first movie pic of a live action Wonder Woman.
> 
> Because the day they do that? Everything and I mean everything superhero related--DC, Marvel, Image, you name it--is going to get pushed off of the front page by the first pic of an actress playing WW in a movie for the first time ever in our lives.
> 
> Forget Ben Affleck. The real big scoop on MOS 2 is going to be how WW looks and how well Gadot is playing her. That news will dwarf everything else. Believe it.


Hahaha...they might just do that  :Big Grin: 

Yeah, WB really wants to be in control (and so far they are doing a good job of it). Ultimately, that's a good thing. I do want to see the WW suit right now..but I would rather see the official copy first, before any leaked images (leaked images are blurry..and I don't want them to ruin my first impression).

Sure, I could try to avoid it..but that might be impossible. Every bit of MOS2 related news is plastered all across the internet - FB, Twitter. You can't avoid it!

I hope so  :Big Grin:

----------


## Prime

I just hope Superman gets the respect he deserves. Kinda tired of seeing Batman.

----------


## Jabare

> Closer look at Ms. Prince.



Can't wait for this film

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Hahaha...they might just do that 
> 
> Yeah, WB really wants to be in control (and so far they are doing a good job of it). Ultimately, that's a good thing. I do want to see the WW suit right now..but I would rather see the official copy first, before any leaked images (leaked images are blurry..and I don't want them to ruin my first impression).
> 
> Sure, I could try to avoid it..but that might be impossible. Every bit of MOS2 related news is plastered all across the internet - FB, Twitter. You can't avoid it!
> 
> I hope so


WB has taken a big gamble putting MOS2 up against CA3. But honestly, it's a very canny move. Unless Marvel wants to put Thanos in CA3, I think the very first ever onscreen team-up of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman is a virtual lock to come in @ #1 that first wknd in May 2016.

Add in Cyborg and possibly an end credits scene featuring other members of the Justice League and that is all she wrote. Midnight showings will be sold out weeks in advance. Lines at theaters will be out the door and around the block.

MOS2 is going to own that wknd. And the return of Wonder Woman to live action will definitely be a big part of that.

----------


## Slade Wilson

> WB has taken a big gamble putting MOS2 up against CA3. But honestly, it's a very canny move. Unless Marvel wants to put Thanos in CA3, I think the very first ever onscreen team-up of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman is a virtual lock to come in @ #1 that first wknd in May 2016.
> 
> Add in Cyborg and possibly an end credits scene featuring other members of the Justice League and that is all she wrote. Midnight showings will be sold out weeks in advance. Lines at theaters will be out the door and around the block.
> 
> MOS2 is going to own that wknd. And the return of Wonder Woman to live action will definitely be a big part of that.


well thats what WB is betting on and quite frankly they cant afford anything less with this movie. If this movie is not a gargantuan hit then their DCCU plans are screwed. Marvel on the other hand can at this point actually afford to be a little less successful with Cap 3 (especially after Avengers 2 will most certainly already be another giant hit for them in 2015), they have much less to lose here and both WB and Marvel know it.

WB cant just rely on numbers though. if the reviews for MOS2 will be less good than for Avengers or Cap 3 (or even just the same or less then MOS) then in the long run this will hurt the movie severely despite the premise. Especially having much worse reviews then Cap 3 could be disastrous.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> well thats what WB is betting on and quite frankly they cant afford anything less with this movie. If this movie is not a gargantuan hit then their DCCU plans are screwed. Marvel on the other hand can at this point actually afford to be a little less successful with Cap 3 (especially after Avengers 2 will most certainly already be another giant hit for them in 2015), they have much less to lose here and both WB and Marvel know it.


I cannot argue with anything you've said.

I will add that I think the tipping point on predictions of how successful MOS2 will be was reached when Ben Affleck got Argo screenwriter Chris Terrio to do rewrites on Goyer's script. Once that happened, my confidence level for how well this movie will do shot way up.

----------


## The Kid

One of them is gonna move at some point. I really want to see SvB just for Trinity finally coming together but I just saw Cap2 which was amazing. Gonna be a tough decision and I think eventually one company will swallow its ego and move

----------


## Blackest Knight

> One of them is gonna move at some point. I really want to see SvB just for Trinity finally coming together but I just saw Cap2 which was amazing. Gonna be a tough decision and I think eventually one company will swallow its ego and move


I'm rooting for WB to stand their ground on this. I'm burned out on Marvel movies; we need more DC movies. Besides, I think MOS2 is going to be way better than early prognosticators have been expecting.

I'm straining my brain trying to think of a Captain America story that would be bigger and better than seeing Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Cyborg (plus possible other DC cameos) all in 1 movie at the same time.

MOS2 for the win.

----------


## Slade Wilson

> I'm rooting for WB to stand their ground on this. I'm burned out on Marvel movies; we need more DC movies. Besides, I think MOS2 is going to be way better than early prognosticators have been expecting.
> 
> I'm straining my brain trying to think of a Captain America story that would be bigger and better than seeing Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Cyborg (plus possible other DC cameos) all in 1 movie at the same time.
> 
> MOS2 for the win.


Just because certain characters are in a movie does not automatically mean its going to be a good movie. A Cap movie could easily be the much better movie if MoS 2 is a mediocre or bad movie. There are so many factors: story, direction, pacing, characterizations etc. 

Look at a movie like Alien vs Predator 2. two of the most awesome scifi creatures in one film and yet the movie was utter crap. Just because its Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman doesnt automatically mean that Cap 3 cant be the far better movie.

Also I dont understand what the release date has to do with the fact that there are many Marvel movies. Both films will be out in 2016, nothing is gonna change that. Its not like we have to choose between them - they will be both there, no matter what. And if you dont want to watch Marvel movies anymore then just dont watch them. They dont have to stop producing them just because you are "burned out" from them. Nobody forces you to watch anything.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Just because certain characters are in a movie does not automatically mean its going to be a good movie.


Where did I say that in my posts? I never did.




> A Cap movie could easily be the much better movie if MoS 2 is a mediocre or bad movie. There are so many factors: story, direction, pacing, characterizations etc.


...which is why I said that the tipping point for me was Oscar winner Chris Terrio coming onboard to do rewrites on the script. Again, that was the point at which my expectations for the film went way up--and that's about having an award-winning screenwriter working on the story.




> Look at a movie like Alien vs Predator 2. two of the most awesome scifi creatures in one film and yet the movie was utter crap. Just because its Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman doesnt automatically mean that Cap 3 cant be the far better movie.


Again, I never said everyone was going to love it solely because of it being the first onscreen shared DC universe. However, I did imply that many people will show up at theaters to see it for that reason. Whether they walk out of the theater loving it, hating it or something in between is a prediction I never made.




> Also I dont understand what the release date has to do with the fact that there are many Marvel movies.


Neither do I. I don't recall ever making a correlation between the May 6, 2016 release and the quantity of Marvel movies.




> Both films will be out in 2016, nothing is gonna change that. Its not like we have to choose between them - they will be both there, no matter what. And if you dont want to watch Marvel movies anymore then just dont watch them. They dont have to stop producing them just because you are "burned out" from them. Nobody forces you to watch anything.


Um, again (heavy sigh), I don't recall ever saying that I won't watch anymore Marvel movies ever again--a bizarre assertion I never made. Nor did I ever say you or I were going to have watch one or the other. Now, will some moviegoers make that decision? Yeah, some will. But I never said it was a decision that everyone would make.

And how in the devil you made up all these things I never said and then translated it to mean that Marvel has to stop producing movies altogether is crazy.

Also, I think it's common sense that some people and some families will not have the time and money to see both films and that they will choose to see one of them first on opening weekend. You and I and other fans will most likely see both. But there are many people who simply don't have the time, the money or the fanboy-ish obsession of folks like us to see both films. Yes, some moviegoers (especially overworked, stressed-parents with little free time on their hands) will choose to see one first and then wait until the following weekend or later to see the other.

I think that MOS2 has the advantage in terms of hitting #1 and CA3 having to settle for the #2 slot.

And I am far from alone in my estimation of MOS2's chances for a box office smash right out of the gate...

Why-Justice-League-cynicism-is-wrong-and-the-film-will-be-a-hit/




> The bottom line is this: As long as the films aren’t terrible, Superman vs. Batman and Justice League are each going to easily top $1 billion in global ticket sales and probably closer to $1.5+ billion each; and chances are, with the talent involved and how important the projects are for the studio’s future, plus the signs we’ve seen already when they brought in a new writer with Oscar pedigree and the choice to delay release of the first film rather than hurry it, the film is at the very least not likely to be outright “bad.” You can dislike DC characters, you can dislike whomever is involved, but don’t make the mistake of letting personal bias taint your objective analysis of the projects so far.


My sentiments exactly.  :Cool:

----------


## The Kid

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman coming together is awesome and I liked Man of Steel. But TWS was awesome and imo by far the best MCU film to date. If it gets great reviews, it can hurt BvS. Remember WB needs BvS to be a smash. I think it will still win the weekend but with Cap comings off a very well reviewed movie (that did better than MOS financially) and the Avengers sequel could really keep WB from maximizing its potential

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman coming together is awesome and I liked Man of Steel. But TWS was awesome and imo by far the best MCU film to date. If it gets great reviews, it can hurt BvS. Remember WB needs BvS to be a smash. I think it will still win the weekend but with Cap comings off a very well reviewed movie (that did better than MOS financially) and the Avengers sequel could really keep WB from maximizing its potential


Avengers 2 comes out in 2015; MOS2 in 2016. So they won't be released anywhere near each other. 

As for CA3, I think it will likely be an excellent superhero movie. But in terms of scale, scope and being a larger-than-life spectacle, CA3 can't hold a candle to seeing DC's Trinity all together on the silver screen for the very first time. MOS2 is simply going to be a much, much BIGGER movie--truly epic in a way that a solo Captain America film will have very little way to compete with in terms of being so huge and legendary.

As for WB needing MOS2 to be a smash, I'd like to again quote the superb analysis written by Forbes.com's Mark Hughes who addresses each & every one of these concerns in his piece...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...will-be-a-hit/




> *It’s important to look at the more extreme negative reactions and put them into proper perspective.
> 
> >SNIP<
> 
> There’s just no rational reason to expect a Superman-Wonder Woman-Batman movie to do less than $1 billion, and probably much higher. Especially since the marketing will drive home the point this is the lead-in to an even bigger superhero team-up in Justice League. I’ve been saying that if they market it as “Justice League Begins,” they’ll reap the financial rewards, and it’s clear now that this is precisely what’s going to happen.
> 
> Fans who question the wisdom of Warner investing in two superhero team-up films on this scale of world-building, and trying to do so much so soon so close together, need to keep the success of the above examples [Lord Of The Rings/Hobbit and Harry Potter] in mind — those two franchises together took $10.6 billion worldwide at the box office, and another estimated $4 billion in DVD/Blu-ray/Digital-HD sales and rentals. Then add in all the other merchandising tie-ins, and we’re looking at something probably approaching $20 billion in revenue. So when wondering whether Warner Bros. can handle adapting the DCU to film, don’t make the mistake of thinking this is their first time at the rodeo, dear readers.
> 
> It doesn’t matter if you like Marvel better than DC. It doesn’t matter if you liked Man of Steel or any of the other DC superhero movies. This is about assessing the financial power of putting Batman into this film, of setting up a whole world of these superheroes interacting together in live-action, and of the strength of the genre and the ideas and the talent involved. And adding all of that up, no matter whether you like the way they’re doing it or not, it makes no sense to ignore the fact these films are probably going to make billions of dollars and be financially successful.
> ...


Mr. Hughes is absolutely right on all counts. Case closed.

----------


## Slade Wilson

> And how in the devil you made up all these things I never said and then translated it to mean that Marvel has to stop producing movies altogether is crazy.


I didnt make up anything. Its all in your last post. Maybe you should read it again. You might not spell it out word for word in the exact same way that I phrased it but its certainly all there. I could list it all point by point and explain why it came across like that but tbh thats a bit too tiresome for me today.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> I didnt make up anything. Its all in your last post. Maybe you should read it again. You might not spell it out word for word in the exact same way that I phrased it but its certainly all there. I could list it all point by point and explain why it came across like that but tbh thats a bit too tiresome for me today.


Um, okay. If you say so.

But however you interpreted what I wrote is not the same thing as me actually saying that literally. Which I never did. Sorry.

----------


## Slade Wilson

> Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman coming together is awesome and I liked Man of Steel. But TWS was awesome and imo by far the best MCU film to date. If it gets great reviews, it can hurt BvS. Remember WB needs BvS to be a smash. I think it will still win the weekend but with Cap comings off a very well reviewed movie (that did better than MOS financially) and the Avengers sequel could really keep WB from maximizing its potential


This.

I agree 100 %. Its what I have been saying. MoS 2 is the follow up to a very mediocre received movie while Cap 3 is the follow up to one of the best superherofilms ever made. And if Avengers AoU is another giant critical and commercial hit then there is no way people will not line up for Cap 3. Add to this an already very popular established shared universe versus a universe which has barely begun.

But that is not the biggest factor. If Cap 3 ´s reviews are stellar like on Cap 2 and the reviews for MoS 2 are not, then this will hurt WB and have a negative impact on the box office gross of the film. I love Zack Snyders films, I love his style and I loved MoS for the most part but he has never made a movie that received universal critical acclaim. The premise of having the DC Trinity on screen is a promise for a massive and epic film and knowing Snyder he will definitely deliver on that front. yeah the movie will definitely be No 1 on opening weekend but after that the critical reception and audience response will be a very crucial factor - for both films.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> This.
> 
> I agree 100 %. Its what I have been saying. MoS 2 is the follow up to a very mediocre received movie while Cap 3 is the follow up to one of the best superherofilms ever made. And if Avengers AoU is another giant critical and commercial hit then there is no way people will not line up for Cap 3. Add to this an already very popular established shared universe versus a universe which has barely begun.
> 
> But that is not the biggest factor. If Cap 3 ´s reviews are stellar like on Cap 2 and the reviews for MoS 2 are not, then this will hurt WB and have a negative impact on the box office gross of the film. I love Zack Snyders films, I love his style and I loved MoS for the most part but he has never made a movie that received universal critical acclaim. The premise of having the DC Trinity on screen is a promise for a massive and epic film and knowing Snyder he will definitely deliver on that front. yeah the movie will definitely be No 1 on opening weekend but after that the critical reception and audience response will be a very crucial factor - for both films.


And my rebuttal to that is exactly what Mark Hughes from Forbes Magazine said far more eloquently than I did...




> *Theres just no rational reason to expect a Superman-Wonder Woman-Batman movie to do less than $1 billion, and probably much higher. Especially since the marketing will drive home the point this is the lead-in to an even bigger superhero team-up in Justice League. Ive been saying that if they market it as Justice League Begins, theyll reap the financial rewards, and its clear now that this is precisely whats going to happen.
> 
> Fans who question the wisdom of Warner investing in two superhero team-up films on this scale of world-building, and trying to do so much so soon so close together, need to keep the success of the above examples [Lord Of The Rings/Hobbit and Harry Potter] in mind  those two franchises together took $10.6 billion worldwide at the box office, and another estimated $4 billion in DVD/Blu-ray/Digital-HD sales and rentals. Then add in all the other merchandising tie-ins, and were looking at something probably approaching $20 billion in revenue. So when wondering whether Warner Bros. can handle adapting the DCU to film, dont make the mistake of thinking this is their first time at the rodeo, dear readers.
> 
> It doesnt matter if you like Marvel better than DC. It doesnt matter if you liked Man of Steel or any of the other DC superhero movies. This is about assessing the financial power of putting Batman into this film, of setting up a whole world of these superheroes interacting together in live-action, and of the strength of the genre and the ideas and the talent involved. And adding all of that up, no matter whether you like the way theyre doing it or not, it makes no sense to ignore the fact these films are probably going to make billions of dollars and be financially successful.
> 
> Fans have bemoaned the lack of a larger cinematic DCU for some time now, and the press has consistently pointed out that Marvel is releasing multiple films every year and building a gigantic live-action comic book world on the big screen while WB/DC havent had success with any characters besides Batman and Superman on and off over the last several years. So theres been a general sense of hurry up implicit in much of what the fans and media say for the last many years. Which makes it all the stranger that, when Warner is now working to get their superhero characters into theaters together in a unified setting with plans for multiple projects and characters, the same folks whove insisted Warner needed to hurry will likely be shouting slow down.
> 
> Warner has stacked the deck with Oscar-winning talents for their efforts here, and made hard choices about screenplay rewrites and pushing back the release date in order to make sure they had enough time to work out these projects and not rush them into theaters. Were only in the first half of 2014 right now, still more than two years away from the release of Superman vs. Batman and likely three years away from the release of Justice League. Theres plenty of time to get things right and avoid rushing any of this, so I think fans and the press can rest easy on that front.*


I couldn't agree with him more.

----------


## Slade Wilson

> And my rebuttal to that is exactly what Mark Hughes from Forbes Magazine said far more eloquently than I did...
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree with him more.


You already posted this. Changing the font color and posting it over and over and repeating how much you agree with him is not gonna magically change my mind. I dont care what Mark Hughes said, no matter how often you repost it in ten more different colors. I prefer to have my own opinion.

But I get the feeling that you feel you cant rest until everyone agrees with you. How about just accepting that others (like me and The Kid) simply have our own opinion instead of trying to change it with brute force?

I didnt ask you for a "rebuttal". A simple "Okay, I accept that this is your opinion but I still disagree for reasons I already stated" would have sufficed instead of trying to hammer that Forbes stuff into our heads.

----------


## Ace Venom

> This.
> 
> I agree 100 %. Its what I have been saying. MoS 2 is the follow up to a very mediocre received movie while Cap 3 is the follow up to one of the best superherofilms ever made. And if Avengers AoU is another giant critical and commercial hit then there is no way people will not line up for Cap 3. Add to this an already very popular established shared universe versus a universe which has barely begun.
> 
> But that is not the biggest factor. If Cap 3 ´s reviews are stellar like on Cap 2 and the reviews for MoS 2 are not, then this will hurt WB and have a negative impact on the box office gross of the film. I love Zack Snyders films, I love his style and I loved MoS for the most part but he has never made a movie that received universal critical acclaim. The premise of having the DC Trinity on screen is a promise for a massive and epic film and knowing Snyder he will definitely deliver on that front. yeah the movie will definitely be No 1 on opening weekend but after that the critical reception and audience response will be a very crucial factor - for both films.


Well, there's also the risk that comes with all of it.  I don't doubt that MoS 2 will make a lot of money.  Now whether or not it will open #1 is another question entirely.  Sure you're stuffing Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman in the same film.  Not only is it the sequel to a film that wasn't well received by critics, it also caused division within the fan community as well.  How much that would hurt the opening box office is up for debate.  Disney is making the smart move to play chicken here for the time being.  They can afford to take a financial hit with some competition.  What they don't want is prolonged competition with Warner.  Quite simply, they're going for the jugular here.  Now the only way I see Cap 3 being pushed back is if Avengers 2 isn't the hit they're expecting it to be.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Well, there's also the risk that comes with all of it.


The only way to totally avoid risk is to hide away and do absolutely nothing, taking no action at all. And even then, "all things come to those who wait." Avoidance of risk is terrible strategy in both life and business.




> I don't doubt that MoS 2 will make a lot of money.  Now whether or not it will open #1 is another question entirely.


The only reason it wouldn't open @ #1 is due to bad reviews and bad buzz. At this point, neither one is applicable in this situation.




> Sure you're stuffing Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman in the same film.  Not only is it the sequel to a film that wasn't well received by critics, it also caused division within the fan community as well.
> 
> How much that would hurt the opening box office is up for debate.


The comics fan community isn't large enough that any online arguments between fans who liked it and those who didn't would impact the opening weekend box office. We'd like to think we have enough power to make or break a film, but we don't. Case in point: those who hate MOS couldn't even make a dent in the box office grosses for it. And the reason Green Lantern failed was the majority of all people didn't like it.

I don't know anyone who holds up Batman Forever as a great film. Every fan I know hates it to this day. But fans hating it didn't stop it from being a success.

Bottom line: It takes more than comic book fans to make or break a film at the box office. 




> Disney is making the smart move to play chicken here for the time being.  They can afford to take a financial hit with some competition.


As someone who's worked in the entertainment industry for over a decade, I can tell you that no studio can necessarily "afford to take a hit." Losing money at the box office is losing money at the box office--and people can & do lose their job's over a film's failure.

Just ask former Disney CEO Rich Ross if Disney could afford to take a hit from the failure of John Carter. It cost him his job and hurt his reputation (possibly for good), despite all the truckloads of money Disney is sitting on.




> What they don't want is prolonged competition with Warner.  Quite simply, they're going for the jugular here.  Now the only way I see Cap 3 being pushed back is if Avengers 2 isn't the hit they're expecting it to be.


I'm still waiting to see if Guardians Of The Galaxy is going to be a hit. So far, I don't see a lot of positive buzz from people outside of comics fans for GOTG. So the jury is still out on whether or not GOTG is going to be a hit.

I'm also going to be curious to see that if it doesn't do well, then how the Hollywood trades and online sites treat its potential failure should it not match the success of Marvel's other films.  Because any failure is often treated like blood in the water for sharks.

We shall see...we shall see.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> Now that I think about it, the weakest link of the whole cinematic ensemble seems to be Cavill himself. He has the right look, and a very good costume. But frankly speaking, he doesn't seem to have much of a personality, nor a particular good talent. And his character seems to be overshadowed by Affleck's Batman.


Nah Cavill's fine..I liked him in MoS despite my problems with the movie(Goyer)..The only thing i dont like is his supe hairstyle(wtf Synder,that is Clarks hairstyle,give me the S curl)

----------


## Myskin

I am not that interested in the upcoming wave of DC characters movies. I don't think very much of all the people who are involved, and I don't like the "adult" philosophy behind this wave of movies (well, I even think that Marvel movies are enjoyable and nothing more). But, now that I think about it, the only way they could make it all work is by making DC's cinematic world already full of villains and heroes, as it was when the JL Animated series began, when the basic rules of superheroism were already "established". It could be a nice way to differentiate them from Marvel movies, where the appearance of villains of heroes is in constant but slow evolution.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> I am not that interested in the upcoming wave of DC characters movies. I don't think very much of all the people who are involved, and *I don't like the "adult" philosophy behind this wave of movies* (well, I even think that Marvel movies are enjoyable and nothing more). But, now that I think about it, the only way they could make it all work is by making DC's cinematic world already full of villains and heroes, as it was when the JL Animated series began, when the basic rules of superheroism were already "established". It could be a nice way to differentiate them from Marvel movies, where the appearance of villains of heroes is in constant but slow evolution.


You do reaize that DCAU was BTAS ,STAS and JL chronolgically..It surprises me how people are like look at the DCAU and learn about a coherent universe, when there wasnt any WW animated series either..Pus the DCAU version of WW is my least fav version(GL and Hawkgirl were boring to,MM was utterly wasted,i'm still pissed)
Best part of DCAU was Shirley Walker hands down..plus Shirley > Zimmer

There's ony been one movie in this universe and you are judging on that..Iron man 1 was great but every subsequent movie was terrible or mediocre,Avengers including(esp Iron Man 2 ,which was Avengers #0 if i can say)..Not to say DCU movies cant be terrible even if Goyer's been kicked out

----------


## Myskin

> You do reaize that DCAU was BTAS ,STAS and JL chronolgically..It surprises me how people are like look at the DCAU and learn about a coherent universe, when there wasnt any WW animated series either
> r


Of course I know. But: A- as far as I am concerned, the DCAU is a masterpiece; B- I am referring specifically to JL, which began with heroes and villains already established.

----------


## Robotman

looks like Robbie has been almost confirmed to play Harley. great casting if true.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> Of course I know. But: A- as far as I am concerned, the DCAU is a masterpiece; B- I am referring specifically to JL, which began with heroes and villains already established.


DCAU is a mess when you take off the nostalgia glasses..a terrible version of superman(in the ep when Grundy comes back to life he punches him straight into a gas station,which explodes(duh) and looks onward as a hero lol,one of a few examples of neither Dini nor Timm getting all the superheroes correctly,especiay SM and WW"

and this comes from a guy whose av is from STAS

----------


## Starchild

I hope that WB revives some of the projects that were in development hell like Hawkman, Doom Patrol & Team 7.

----------


## Myskin

> DCAU is a mess when you take off the nostalgia glasses..


Nope, no nostalgia at all. I am not a nostalgic guy. I think that it's a masterpiece for a variety of reasons I won't explain in detail here, but that has nothing to do with nostalgia.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> Nope, no nostalgia at all. I am not a nostalgic guy. I think that it's a masterpiece for a variety of reasons I won't explain in detail here, but that has nothing to do with nostalgia.


I respect it..I've aways been bummed by DCAU Superman/WW so it is hard for me to see it as a masterpiece or even a definitive version of those characters(other than BM and Flash,everyone was short shifted)..First two seasons of BTAS were awesome..The episode 'Epilogue' that connects Batman Beyond to DCAU was absoutely terrible with Dini/Timm's Bat worshipping at its finest..Even 'The Word's Finest' with Lois hooking up with Bats was a terrilbe variant of the Bat worship that peope seem to dish on DC being nowadays..Bats hooked up with almost everyone in DCAU which is once again, writers being biased to their pet character

----------


## Robotman

im taking this rumor with a very large grain of salt. but KGBeast in Batman v. Superman would be pretty awesome. 

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=110773

----------


## SXVA

> You do reaize that DCAU was BTAS ,STAS and JL chronolgically..It surprises me how people are like look at the DCAU and learn about a coherent universe, when there wasnt any WW animated series either..Pus the DCAU version of WW is my least fav version(GL and Hawkgirl were boring to,MM was utterly wasted,i'm still pissed)
> Best part of DCAU was Shirley Walker hands down..plus Shirley > Zimmer
> 
> There's ony been one movie in this universe and you are judging on that..*Iron man 1 was great but every subsequent movie was terrible or mediocre,Avengers including*(esp Iron Man 2 ,which was Avengers #0 if i can say)..Not to say DCU movies cant be terrible even if Goyer's been kicked out


Cmon now, that seems terribly biased. While i can respect your opinion of not liking those movies to suggest all of them except Iron Man 1 have been terrible or mediocre... That's a bit much seeing as they've connected with and positively effected many people.

----------


## Punisher007

TWS says hello.

----------


## Darrell D.

> Cmon now, that seems terribly biased. While i can respect your opinion of not liking those movies to suggest all of them except Iron Man 1 have been terrible or mediocre... That's a bit much seeing as they've connected with and positively effected many people.


Yeah, the Winter Soldier and Guardians from this year alone are examples of excellent films.

----------


## Kid A

> Yeah, the Winter Soldier and Guardians from this year alone are examples of excellent films.


If those are examples of excellent films, the film industry has reached an all time low.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> If those are examples of excellent films, the film industry has reached an all time low.


I think its reached a low quite a while ago. Most films now are just pointless Sequels, Prequels and reboots, eg. Finding Dori, Purge 2, Annabelle, and not forgetting the new Terminator trilogy.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> Yeah, the Winter Soldier and Guardians from this year alone are examples of excellent films.


I forgot to say phase 1 of Marvel movies..TWS while great lacked everything that Marvel movies have lacked,a good villain..WS was there for like 30 mins of the movie in prominence and lol at the terrible someone important is dead but not really thing that has continued from Avengers 1(Coulson,Fury,Groot)..Dont care about GOTG..Terrible version of both Gamora and Ronan(go and read Hickman's FF run for best Ronan)

----------


## Punisher007

Oh you mean the common storytelling technique in the spy genre, as well as something that Nick Fury has done repeatedly in the comics.  Sorry, but it's not the same thing as Coulson or Groot, not even close.  As for Groot, he was established to have regenerative powers early on in the movie, so that's ALSO a very different thing.  So basically you're trying to compare three different situations, not going to work.  Oh and TWS had TWO good villains, Pierce and Zola.  Winter Soldier was never the main villain, nor was he one in the comics.  He's a mind-controlled puppet being used by actual villains.

----------


## Punisher007

> If those are examples of excellent films, the film industry has reached an all time low.


Sure whatever.  Your hyperbole is amusing.  Yeah I'm sure the vast majority of critics (who study film, see dozens if not hundreds of movies a year of all different genres, and most of whom have little interest in comics and are professionals) and the GA who praised those films just don't know what good filmmaking is, but YOU do.

----------


## Kid A

Yes because obviously "critics" are a monolithic entity that decides what movies are good and what movies aren't.

Jesus dude.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> Oh you mean the common storytelling technique in the spy genre, as well as something that Nick Fury has done repeatedly in the comics.  Sorry, but it's not the same thing as Coulson or Groot, not even close.  As for Groot, he was established to have regenerative powers early on in the movie, so that's ALSO a very different thing.  So basically you're trying to compare three different situations, not going to work.  Oh and TWS had TWO good villains, Pierce and Zola.  Winter Soldier was never the main villain, nor was he one in the comics.  He's a mind-controlled puppet being used by actual villains.


Doesnt deviate from the fact that every villain has been uninspiring(lol at loki being an avengers villain and the whole terrible looking alien invasion)..Thers's a limit to bias and in this case i'd have sided with you if any villain had been interesting(especially for Avengers)

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Totally agree with *Kryptoniac*  the MCU villains have been incredibly underwhelming, especially Loki. 
I am hoping Ultron will be at least half decent.

----------


## SXVA

The movies were about the heroes, not the villains. The villains served their purpose.

I don't think Loki's a true villain, he's neutral chaotic if i were to guess.... at least if The Dark World is anything to go by.

Avengers was more about the heroes, those heroes had to come together and deal with the threat.. it wasn't about the threat. [that's how i saw it, perhaps since it was the first Avengers movie the idea was to establish and develop the heroes and focus on them more so.]

Ultron seems like it's going to have more focus on the villain.

----------


## colonyofcells

Since Marvel is doing civil war in the movies, hopefully, dc will do kingdom come in the movies and maybe just change it a little bit for a 21st century setting.

----------


## Blackest Knight

Speaking of DCU villains, did you all see the live action debut of Gorilla Grodd on CW's The Flash tonight?!

OMG! I was yelling and screaming with delight! So totally awesome.  :Big Grin: 

And very shocked it was a practical, physical gorilla suit and *not* CGI...well, for now.

Wow, a Gorilla Grodd cameo in live action--I can't believe I lived to see it! So incredible!!  :Smile:

----------


## Jabare

> I forgot to say phase 1 of Marvel movies..TWS while great lacked everything that Marvel movies have lacked,a good villain..WS was there for like 30 mins of the movie in prominence and lol at the terrible someone important is dead but not really thing that has continued from Avengers 1(Coulson,Fury,Groot)..Dont care about GOTG..Terrible version of both Gamora and Ronan(go and read Hickman's FF run for best Ronan)


???

Winter Soldier had a great antagonist. Hydra. One of the better antagonists for a Marvel movie. Multiple villains. Outside of Loki (who has his own minor story flaws, but no need to nitpick) this was one of the better antagonists we've had in a Marvel Studios film. Multiple threats headlined by talented actors.  Fury didn't die. Coulson actually died.  Only those following the tv show know he's back.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Since Marvel is doing civil war in the movies, hopefully, dc will do kingdom come in the movies and maybe just change it a little bit for a 21st century setting.


Oh god no.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Since Marvel is doing civil war in the movies, hopefully, dc will do kingdom come in the movies and maybe just change it a little bit for a 21st century setting.





> Oh god no.


Seconded. 

Kingdom Come is no good for a DCCU. The story is epic but Waid's  wishy washy Superman drives me up the wall. Also Supes following WW's dumb plan to lock up all the faceless meta humans of this new world in one place is face palm worthy. 

I'd rather see Rock of Ages adapted for a film. With tweaks of course. None of that hypertime nonsense.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Since Marvel is doing civil war in the movies, hopefully, dc will do kingdom come in the movies and maybe just change it a little bit for a 21st century setting.


I don't understand how Marvel is doing Civil War when non of their Heroes in the MCU has a secret identity :/

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I don't understand how Marvel is doing Civil War when non of their Heroes in the MCU has a secret identity :/


...


I can't believe I didn't notice this till now.

----------


## Predator JP

i guess it's gonna be a simple Tony vs Steve story, no registration act.

----------


## Darrell D.

> I don't understand how Marvel is doing Civil War when non of their Heroes in the MCU has a secret identity :/


It won't be a straight adaptation, probably just a thematic device.

----------


## byrd156

> It won't be a straight adaptation, probably just a thematic device.


Maybe they could start a Civil War by Tony starting SHIELD up again and Cap is against it because of what happened last time.

----------


## golgi

I agree that the Marvel villains have been lacking. However, Hugo as Red Skull was fantastic. It was really the only good thing about Captain America, IMO.

----------


## GrandKaiser

I was thinking about how Ted Grant is now a part of the Arrowverse, and realized that if he were to ever be introduced into the DC Cinematic Universe he should totally be played by Sylvester Stallone.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I don't understand how Marvel is doing Civil War when non of their Heroes in the MCU has a secret identity :/


Haha. You should try doing some research, Sirzechs. Kevin Feige literally said on the day it was announced that it would not involve identities, instead it will be about who certain heroes report to.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Haha. You should try doing some research, Sirzechs. Kevin Feige literally said on the day it was announced that it would not involve identities, instead it will be about who certain heroes report to.


Huh. That actually makes it sound like it'll be Tony will be on the anti-government side, he's probably been the least keen on them so far. 

Unless they're all just pissed at Thor for reporting to the Asgardians.

----------


## Kryptoniac

> I was thinking about how Ted Grant is now a part of the Arrowverse, and realized that if he were to ever be introduced into the DC Cinematic Universe he should totally be played by Sylvester Stallone.


Only want Jean Claude van damme for Wildcat in a true DCu(if that even exists)..Also will take John Wesley shipp for Jay Garrick(CW missed it huge time on this imo)




> I agree that the Marvel villains have been lacking. However, Hugo as Red Skull was fantastic. It was really the only good thing about Captain America, IMO.


Cap movies have had the only decent villains in the entirety of MCU..
And the one who said the MCU movies are all about the heroes..Heroes are nothing without an iconic villain to take them forward,which is why every superhero origin has had one or the other important villain(crime and corruption in Bat year one etc) to take them forward..Its understandabe for one movie but every movie has had absolutey uninspiring villains...Even Wentworth Miller as Captain Cold on The Flash was more charismatic than 90% of MCU baddies(plus he beats the hero and walks away with the loot in swagger)

----------


## golgi

IMAX confirmed for Batman V Superman.




> UPDATE: An IMAX spokesperson confirmed IMAX cameras are being used for Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.

----------


## Robotman

Loved the Spectre foreshadowing on Constantine!

----------


## Starchild

It would be cool if they revived Green Arrow: Escape from Supermax for the DCCU. And the critics are going to be super harsh on DC for the couple of years. I feel bad for them because no matter how great their films might be, they'll still nitpick.

----------


## Robotman

Well MacLaren is gonna direct Wonder Woman. A pretty great choice. Hopefully the script is good.

----------


## AlexG.

> Loved the Spectre foreshadowing on Constantine!


I haven't seen that episode yet, but that's creepy. And not in a good way creepy! (though, that's probably an accurate presentation of a dead person/ghost/ethereal being)




> It would be cool if they revived Green Arrow: Escape from Supermax for the DCCU. And the critics are going to be super harsh on DC for the couple of years. I feel bad for them because no matter how great their films might be, they'll still nitpick.


What I don't get is why people (vocal minority) online, and some critics, can't seem to understand that not every superhero film has to be similar to one another .

----------


## GrandKaiser

Which directors/writers have been confirmed for all the DC Movies?

Batman vs Superman - Zack Snyder/David Goyer
Suicide Squad - David Ayer/Justin Marks
Wonder Woman - Michelle MacLaren
The Flash - ? (let's get rid of Ezra Miller though please)
Shazam - Darren Lenke
Justice League Parts 1 & 2 - Zack Snyder/David Goyer/Chris Terio
Cyborg - ?
Green Lantern - ?

Is this all we know? 
Maybe OP should be updated

----------


## Triple J

> Which directors/writers have been confirmed for all the DC Movies?
> 
> Batman vs Superman - Zack Snyder/David Goyer
> Suicide Squad - David Ayer/Justin Marks
> Wonder Woman - Michelle MacLaren
> The Flash - ? (let's get rid of Ezra Miller though please)
> Shazam - Darren Lenke
> Justice League Parts 1 & 2 - Zack Snyder/David Goyer/Chris Terio
> Cyborg - ?
> ...


Hmm, I am pretty sure Terrio is also involved in BvS.

I will do that soon, thanks!

----------


## Triple J

I see that a lot of people doubt WB (which I can understand), but do keep in mind: They are the studio that delivered as amazing franchises like LOTR and HP. They have proven that they can make amazing movies, as long as they are invested into it (when they aren't, we get things like Green Lantern).

I am pretty confident that they are invested into this cinematic universe (First being money. Second - Money again; WB doesn't seem to have planned any new franchises for the coming years. They definitely need to make more movies/franchises, if they are to expand. Third - Tsujihara; He seems to be a lot more interested in DC).

----------


## FlashingSabre

> DCAU is a mess when you take off the nostalgia glasses..a terrible version of superman(in the ep when Grundy comes back to life he punches him straight into a gas station,which explodes(duh) and looks onward as a hero lol,one of a few examples of neither Dini nor Timm getting all the superheroes correctly,especiay SM and WW"
> and this comes from a guy whose av is from STAS


Grundy had a massive power up after his resurrection. Even Amazon (who was a reality warped) didn't have the raw power to put him down.

----------


## golgi

It's not confirmed who will direct SHAZAM, but rumor has it, James Wan will direct. Very good choice, since he has a lot of talent. WB is on a good streak lately. Hiring Michele MacLaren and David Ayer. 2 extremely talented directors. Not to mention if they get Ben Affleck to direct the Batman solo movies. The future looks bright.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> DCAU is a mess when you take off the nostalgia glasses..a terrible version of superman(in the ep when Grundy comes back to life he punches him straight into a gas station,which explodes(duh) and looks onward as a hero lol,one of a few examples of neither Dini nor Timm getting all the superheroes correctly,especiay SM and WW"
> 
> and this comes from a guy whose av is from STAS


Honestly yeah. I tried rewatching Batman TAS and I just couldn't. Some things were just too childish and out of character that I just skipped to season 4 and even that was hard, so I watched Beware the Batman instead which I enjoyed better. Better pace, more complex and mature storylines. 

I do enjoy Justice League though, and little of Batman Beyond. The rest is just not as good as people make it out to be.

----------


## byrd156

> Honestly yeah. I tried rewatching Batman TAS and I just couldn't. Some things were just too childish and out of character that I just skipped to season 4 and even that was hard, so I watched Beware the Batman instead which I enjoyed better. Better pace, more complex and mature storylines. 
> 
> I do enjoy Justice League though, and little of Batman Beyond. The rest is just not as good as people make it out to be.


I guess people just have different taste (uh what's that?), for me I can't stand Beware the Batman and BTAS is probably my favorite animated show of all time, either BTAS or STAS or YJ.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I guess people just have different taste (uh what's that?), for me I can't stand Beware the Batman and BTAS is probably my favorite animated show of all time, either BTAS or STAS or YJ.


Yeah I thought I would hate Beware the Batman. But the story was really engrossing, it felt like a drama show for adults, which is how I felt with Young Justice as well. I got used to the animation pretty quickly. I think it's time to stop branding superheroes for children all the time, we need a more mature show that can stick around for a while. After watching shows like BTB and YJ I just can't watch BTAS because the comedic elements are just too ridiculous and kid oriented. I'm not saying it's bad I'm just saying for me it's not what "all Batman shows should be like". My favorite Batman show is The Batman based on the storylines/music/voices even though it can be kid oriented. It's too bad it got cancelled before they introduced Hush.

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah I thought I would hate Beware the Batman. But the story was really engrossing, it felt like a drama show for adults, which is how I felt with Young Justice as well. I got used to the animation pretty quickly. I think it's time to stop branding superheroes for children all the time, we need a more mature show that can stick around for a while. After watching shows like BTB and YJ I just can't watch BTAS because the comedic elements are just too ridiculous and kid oriented. I'm not saying it's bad I'm just saying for me it's not what "all Batman shows should be like". My favorite Batman show is The Batman based on the storylines/music/voices even though it can be kid oriented. It's too bad it got cancelled before they introduced Hush.


I really wished Scarecrow and Two-face could've showed up in The Batman, since they are two of my favorite villains. I don't really view and probably never will view BTAS as "too ridiculous or kid oriented" because it's a kids show that didn't treat you like a kid. Sure it had it's kid moments but a lot of the show had a very strong tone through and through. Stuff like Robin's Reckoning, Heart of Ice, and Fear of Victory, I don't think I could ever forget. That's also another thing that I love about BTAS it leaves an impact on you.(or at least it did for me)

----------


## Triple J

Good News JLD Fans  - Del Toro Just Submitted His Script to WB




> Today, the completed screenplay for Dark Universe officially went to weekend reads at Warner Bros. The studio’s reactions to the script will be coming back in a few days, and the film could take another step toward production if Warner has a favorable opinion of what they see on the page. The director confirmed the script’s completion and status while I chatted with him about his FX horror series The Strain.


Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...o-hands-today/

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Good News JLD Fans  - Del Toro Just Submitted His Script to WB
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...o-hands-today/


Oh boy!!! There are so many Del Toro movies that need to come out already.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Good News JLD Fans  - Del Toro Just Submitted His Script to WB
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...o-hands-today/


Huh, I was sure this was dead.

----------


## Kid A

I'm not the type that wants all the movie and TV stuff (like Arrow) to be synched, but I'd be all for keeping Matt Ryan.

----------


## Robotman

> Good News JLD Fans  - Del Toro Just Submitted His Script to WB
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...o-hands-today/


Yes! So happy that there is still hope for this flick!

----------


## nosinik

Awesome news about Justice League Dark!

----------


## Triple J

*Update on Sandman: Script [Draft] Completed*




> “I hesitate to definitively say when it might go before the cameras,” says Goyer, “but the one thing different between other iterations and ours is that Neil Gaiman has been in the room with us and is a vital part of the team. We have a draft Warners is very happy with and we’re moving forward, knock on wood.”


I hope WB announces the Vertigo slate soon  :Big Grin:

----------


## golgi

Update on Suicide Squad.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...d-shoot-753015




> Jai Courtney, Tom Hardy, Margot Robbie and Jared Leto are in the final stages of talks for roles. Colin Wilson is producing.

----------


## Robotman

Damn I wish Suicide Squad wasn't coming out in August. That's usually where studios dump their summer movie leftovers.

----------


## Punisher007

GOTG and The Bourne Ultimatum were both released in August, and it didn't seem to hurt them either critically or financially.  It's probably a case of the studios realizing that there's less competition in August because it's the tail end of the Summer movie season.  So their film will have a better chance of standing out/doing well than if the release it in the middle of Summer, when it has to compete against many other blockbusters.  Plus, Suicide Squad probably won't be a "blockbuster" per se in terms of budget/scale anyway.  It's also why studios have started releasing blockbusters in other non-traditional months like November/December/April/etc.

----------


## Triple J

Del Toro on JLD:




> Right now the only sort of shared universe project I’m working on is Dark Universe for Warners, you know, for DC, which is Swamp Thing, Demon, Deadman, Zatanna.  It’s a very different universe.



Source: http://collider.com/guillermo-del-to...n-2-interview/

----------


## megaharrison

My ideal JLD would be Constantine, Deadman, Swamp-Thing, Zatanna, Etrigan, and Frankenstein

----------


## Punisher007

I'd probably throw either Black Alice or Orchid in there as well.

----------


## Robotman

Well the Suicide Squad cast has officially been announced. 

http://www.newsarama.com/22873-suici...oker-more.html


Yep, Will Smith is Deadshot. That sucks!!!

----------


## golgi

Holy Crap that is an awesome cast!

----------


## The Kid

I came when I read the cast list

----------


## byrd156

> I came when I read the cast list


Uhhh, that's nice I guess.

Seriously? Will Smith as Deadshot?

----------


## Jabare

wow Warner is going all in with this cast. hope it pays off

----------


## Sirzechs

Casting sounds awesome, My only question is Enchantress seems odd to me, how did Waller manage to get her to behave.

----------


## Triple J

> My ideal JLD would be Constantine, Deadman, Swamp-Thing, Zatanna, Etrigan, and Frankenstein


Almost the same here...I will include two more characters - Nightmare Nurse and Madame Xanadu.

----------


## Triple J

Great news with the cast. Big names too!

----------


## Robotman

> Uhhh, that's nice I guess.
> 
> Seriously? Will Smith as Deadshot?


I'm not a fan of Will Smith. One of the most overrated actors out there. Plus there are so many great black heroes and villains associated with the Suicide Squad I don't see the reason to change Deadshot's ethnicity. I was so hoping to see Bronze Tiger on the roster. He's one of my favorite characters and I would've loved to have seen him on the big screen. Character has so much potential. Also sad that Vixen isn't on the initial lineup. a tragically underused character.

----------


## Robotman

> Casting sounds awesome, My only question is Enchantress seems odd to me, how did Waller manage to get her to behave.


Enchantress was a regular on Ostrander's Suicide Squad. 



I guess a bomb in the neck can keep even a witch in check.

----------


## Trident

> I'm not a fan of Will Smith. One of the most overrated actors out there. Plus there are so many great black heroes and villains associated with the Suicide Squad I don't see the reason to change Deadshot's ethnicity. I was so hoping to see Bronze Tiger on the roster. He's one of my favorite characters and I would've loved to have seen him on the big screen. Character has so much potential. Also sad that Vixen isn't on the initial lineup. a tragically underused character.


Did ever occur to you that Will Smith may have simply been the best actor for the role?(Who audition/WB could get)

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Casting sounds awesome, My only question is Enchantress seems odd to me, how did Waller manage to get her to behave.


Enchantress ? She is a magical character. She was the very reason why Madame Xanadu assembled the Justice League Dark team in the first place. I see a possible connection between the DCCU and the Justice League Dark movie if she gets her powers.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Enchantress ? She is a magical character. She was the very reason why Madame Xanadu assembled the Justice League Dark team in the first place. I see a possible connection between the DCCU and the Justice League Dark movie if she gets her powers.


Would be awesome if at the end of the film, you see a dirty blonde figure lighting a cigarette  :Big Grin: .

----------


## BloodOps

This is so just awesome.

No one has complained about Floyd and Will Smith being white and black but Will Smith is so cool so who cares.

I'm sure we'll get some red shirts too, hopefully they get Pounder for Waller and just wondering what Joker's role and main objective will be in this film is gonna be a lot of fun.

----------


## Desh

I wasn't interested in the Suicide Squad movie at all, but now I am. I'm really looking forward to hearing more.

----------


## megaharrison

Good casting choices all the round, though the chick playing Quinn seems to be a product of nepotism so I'm hesitant about her. It sounds like the girl chosen for Transformers 3 all over again.

----------


## Black_Adam

I'm pretty happy with both the casting choices and the overall team lineup. It's a nice mix of old and newer squad members, glad they included Rick Flag, would of liked to have seen Bronze Tiger also but oh well you can't have it all. Leto should kill it, I'm really looking forward to seeing his take on Joker! Will Smith as Deadshot well call me crazy but I think it can work, there are a lot worse choices than him IMO.

Super keen for this, I dare say maybe even more so then BvS?

----------


## Sirzechs



----------


## Starchild

> 



See, now this is the SS roster that I wanted. Not this weak lineup. I really hope this movie is good, even though I strongly believe that Harley will ruin it for me.

----------


## megaharrison

I get Enchantress was in the original SS way back when, but I can't help but think WB is only putting her in this to try and stop Marvel from using the more-well-known Enchantress in their Thor movies.

----------


## Starchild

> I get Enchantress was in the original SS way back when, but I can't help but think WB is only putting her in this to try and stop Marvel from using the more-well-known Enchantress in their Thor movies.


Smart move imo.

----------


## Predator JP

> Well the Suicide Squad cast has officially been announced. 
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22873-suici...oker-more.html
> 
> 
> Yep, Will Smith is Deadshot. That sucks!!!


finally.
great cast, can't wait to see Reto's Joker.

----------


## Robotman

Will Smith should've been Rick Flag. Definitely not a fan of him playing Deadshot.

----------


## sirjustin86

> Will Smith should've been Rick Flag. Definitely not a fan of him playing Deadshot.


I wasn't either at first, because the entire Smith clan are so arrogant and big-headed. But then I was like, 'wait, Deadshot is arrogant and big-headed' so I'm happy to see how this goes down..! Enchantress is a bit random a choice, given her power levels. As others have said, it will be interesting to see how Flag//Waller get her to 'behave' - assuming she's on the team and not the threat itself.

----------


## Robotman

> I wasn't either at first, because the entire Smith clan are so arrogant and big-headed. But then I was like, 'wait, Deadshot is arrogant and big-headed' so I'm happy to see how this goes down..! Enchantress is a bit random a choice, given her power levels. As others have said, it will be interesting to see how Flag//Waller get her to 'behave' - assuming she's on the team and not the threat itself.


Enchantress was a regular during Ostrander's run. I guess the bomb in the neck works even on magic users.

----------


## Black_Adam

> I get Enchantress was in the original SS way back when, but I can't help but think WB is only putting her in this to try and stop Marvel from using the more-well-known Enchantress in their Thor movies.


She is a convenient way to introduce magic into the DCU with Shazam and JLD both coming and also she's a lesser known character played by a not so big name so she can be killed off easily in a movie like this in which people will expect casualties.

----------


## Jake Cassidy

> Good casting choices all the round, though the chick playing Quinn seems to be a product of nepotism so I'm hesitant about her. It sounds like the girl chosen for Transformers 3 all over again.


How is that nepotism?

----------


## Kid A

If she was good enough for a Martin Scorsese film, she's good enough for this.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Exciting stuff. Suicide Squad is one of the few superhero films in development that seems to deviate from the already beaten into the ground "Marvel (and soon to be DC/WB) formula", and this cast makes it even more interesting. A very solid combination of acting chops, "hot" names and A-list credentials. 

Ideally Smith should have been Flagg and Hardy Deadshot, but I'm certainly ready to be proven wrong about that. I do think we'll be seeing a more sympathetic Deadshot than usual, and I'm almost certain him and Flagg will have some sort of frenemy/bromance thing going on that culminates in a dying Flagg and Deadshot arcing by doing the heroic rather than the villainous thing at the climax. Which admittedly sounds hacky as hell, but hopefully the actors/director will elevate it. Or that I'm completely wrong. Either way is good. 

I'm still very iffy about Joker being in the movie though, especially if it's more than a qualified cameo. I thought he was badly shoehorned into the recent animated SS-movie, and the only option besides that seems to be putting him on the actual squad which opens a whole can of worms about the concept as a whole. Once again I'm eager to be proven wrong on this one, but even with the rock solid concept of Suicide Squad and the great casting there are still some tricky obstacles to overcome for this to be a good movie. Ideally all pieces will fall into place, we'll get a great movie and the studios will re-think their same-y approach to superhero movies which is currently suffocating the genre creatively. Here's hoping!

----------


## Punisher007

WOW, let's see here:

 Will Smith as Deadshot-Great. He's a good actor and they can definitely use his name in the marketing campaign. Also, he already played a bitter, cynical, "I don't give a crap" type character in Hancock, and did well. That movie's problems were with the script, not his performance.

 Jared Leto as The Joker-Hell yeah. As for some people's complaints that he's "too pretty" well did people see the LAST guy who played The Joker?  Not exactly butt-ugly was that one. Also Leto's last big role, which won him an Oscar btw, was playing an HIV-infected Transgendered prostitute. A role that required him to dress in drag, wear make-up, and lose a DISTURBINGLY large amount of weight in a very short amount of time. He can play The Joker.

 Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn-Perfect, just perfect.

 Jai Courtney as Captain Boomerang-The most meh choice of the bunch, but I'll still give him a chance to prove himself. And they got an actual Australian actor to play CB, so that's cool.

 Cara Delevingne as The Enchantress-Admittedly I don't know much about either the actress or the character, but I'll give her a chance.

 Possible Amanda Waller actresses:

 -Viola Davis-Great.
 -Octavia Spencer-Also great.
 -Oprah-Unexpected/unusual choice. But she's proven to be a good actress, so I'd be fine with this choice as well.

 David Ayer as the director-Fantastic choice. 

I wonder if they'll do the Harley/Deadshot kind of sort of relationship from the New 52.  _Assault on Arkham did._

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If she was good enough for a Martin Scorsese film, she's good enough for this.


Besides, if Margot Robbie is indeed an example of nepotism, then we need more nepotism!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Punisher007

Who would it be "nepotism" for?  Dicaprio, Scorsese, Jonah Hill?  Because as far as I know, they're not involved with this movie?  That's just a weird "complaint" that makes no sense.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Who would it be "nepotism" for?  Dicaprio, Scorsese, Jonah Hill?  Because as far as I know, they're not involved with this movie?  That's just a weird "complaint" that makes no sense.


Yeah, I don't know where the connection would be, either.

----------


## Ceebiro

> Yeah, I don't know where the connection would be, either.


Smith and Robbie actually have a film together coming out early next year. I can't remember what it's called but I did see a trailer for it.

That said, Robbie has been getting attention all her own, so I'm sure she has the chops for whatever is coming her way.

Overall, I think this may be some of the best casting I've seen for a new "superhero" film in some time. I'm very curious to see how Marvel now casts for something like Inhumans and yes, Black Panther. 

It's crazy to think that a little over a decade ago name actors tended to turn their nose up at these types of films. Now everyone wants a piece of the pie.

----------


## Ceebiro

> I'm not a fan of Will Smith. One of the most overrated actors out there. Plus there are so many great black heroes and villains associated with the Suicide Squad I don't see the reason to change Deadshot's ethnicity. I was so hoping to see Bronze Tiger on the roster. He's one of my favorite characters and I would've loved to have seen him on the big screen. Character has so much potential. Also sad that Vixen isn't on the initial lineup. a tragically underused character.


The reason to change Deadshot's ethnicity is pretty obvious.

Smith IS still a big name, and Deadshot is most likely the Star Lord of this film, the primary protagonist.

----------


## Typhoeus

I'm so happy about the casting! this movie is going to be so much bigger now!
At first, 'Suicide Squad' was one of those project I didn't expect nor was I really excited about. Now I really can't wait for 2016.

----------


## Punisher007

> Smith and Robbie actually have a film together coming out early next year. I can't remember what it's called but I did see a trailer for it.
> 
> That said, Robbie has been getting attention all her own, so I'm sure she has the chops for whatever is coming her way.
> 
> Overall, I think this may be some of the best casting I've seen for a new "superhero" film in some time. I'm very curious to see how Marvel now casts for something like Inhumans and yes, Black Panther. 
> 
> It's crazy to think that a little over a decade ago name actors tended to turn their nose up at these types of films. Now everyone wants a piece of the pie.


Yeah and they're apparently playing lovers in that movie.  Harley/Deadshot incoming perhaps?  _Assault on Arkham_ did it.

----------


## Diamond

Suicide Squad has a much more attractive cast than JLA. That's all I will say.

----------


## Predator JP

> Suicide Squad has a much more attractive cast than JLA. That's all I will say.


yeah, i agree on that one.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Yeah if they put as much effort into casting wonder woman as they did the characters for this movie you'd see less complaints but then again there's a world of difference between david ayer and snyder

----------


## upgrayedd

> Suicide Squad has a much more attractive cast than JLA. That's all I will say.


 my thoughts exactly

----------


## Darrell D.

Damn.  Amazing cast and a hot director.  I don't think I've ever read a copy of Suicide Squad, and all I know about Deadshot is that he used to get beat on by Batman, but I am pumped for this.

----------


## byrd156

Apparently Doomsday and KGBeast will be in BVS: Dawn of Justice

http://http://batman-news.com/2014/1...atman-villain/

----------


## Cmbmool

While I enjoy Will Smith's previous work, I'm a bit worried over  the idea of him being Deadshot. I mean honestly it's just seems like a bad idea, but then again it is DCU movies.  :Frown: 

Also, for anyone who says that this isn't influenced by the Batman Dark Knight trilogy films, then why give a role to Thomas Hardy who already had a DC Comic role as playing the new Bane ?

----------


## Sodam Yat

I thought Will Smith was going to play as Bronze Tiger. I guess not since Michael Jai White took the role, but then again Deadshot was played by a different actor in Arrow. *sigh*

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Enchantress was a regular during Ostrander's run. I guess the bomb in the neck works even on magic users.


Guess they pulled off a magic trick on her.

----------


## Black_Adam

> While I enjoy Will Smith's previous work, I'm a bit worried over  the idea of him being Deadshot. I mean honestly it's just seems like a bad idea, but then again it is DCU movies. 
> 
> Also, for anyone who says that this isn't influenced by the Batman Dark Knight trilogy films, then why give a role to Thomas Hardy who already had a DC Comic role as playing the new Bane ?


You do know Bane and Rick Flag are completely different characters and complete polar opposites right? Nolanverse is done this is a new cinematic universe. I suppose Chris Evans should never of been Cap because he was Johnny Storm then.

----------


## Robotman

Michael Jai White was an absolutely perfect for the role of Bronze Tiger. I know it could never happen because he's already Tiger on Arrow but I would LOVE to see him join this team. Although his skills were very underused on Arrow. The guy is a 5th degree black belt but they just had him flailing away with those claws.

----------


## golgi

Great points all around. Oprah would be a pretty big draw.

----------


## Robotman

I keep hearing how Oprah would be a big draw and bring in the crowds. This movie already has Will Smith as Deadshot and features the Joker and Harley Quinn two of the most popular characters in pop culture. It doesn't need Oprah! 
Plus I'm more worried about the movie actually being good and not about casting for publicity sake.

----------


## Air Wave

I think Oprah would be AMAZING but my concern is would she sign on for a 3-picture deal?  You can't just write out (or recast) Amanda Waller after only one movie.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I keep hearing how Oprah would be a big draw and bring in the crowds. This movie already has Will Smith as Deadshot and features the Joker and Harley Quinn two of the most popular characters in pop culture. It doesn't need Oprah! 
> Plus I'm more worried about the movie actually being good and not about casting for publicity sake.


Oprah is a fine actress, though, so she wouldn't just be a publicity draw.

----------


## Predator JP

but is she really a big draw?
she was in The Butler but i don't think many people rush out to see that movie.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> but is she really a big draw?
> she was in The Butler but i don't think many people rush out to see that movie.


She's not that big of a draw, of course, but she is a name and can act. I don't see her hurting the film, at any rate.

----------


## Robotman

it'll be interesting if KGBeast really does end up in Batman v. Superman. he's a bloodthirsty Russian super soldier. so basically we could see Batman fighting an evil Captain America. or The Winter Soldier i guess.

----------


## megaharrison

Oprah is annoying and pretentious these days and I've never been impressed with anything she's done, especially for the role Waller would require. Viola Davis would be great, though that'd involve having the much-hated New 52 slim version

----------


## Sirzechs

> Oprah is annoying and pretentious these days and I've never been impressed with anything she's done, especially for the role Waller would require. Viola Davis would be great, though that'd involve having the much-hated New 52 slim version


Not really Viola is of a medium build, like Angela Bassett in Green Lantern.

----------


## Triple J

Jeremy Irons on Alfred:




> While being honored at an International Film Festival, Jeremy Irons briefly discussed his role as Alfred Pennyworth in director Zack Snyder's Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice.  "He is quite a different Alfred than we have seen so far. Zack Snyder had very clear views about what he wanted," he said. "I would just say he's more hands-on perhaps than just a butler." Irons also described his part in the film as "not a large role".


Source: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=112075

Jason Momoa on Aquaman:




> Jason Momoa have a contract for 4 movies as Arthur Curry/Aquaman!
> He wants Zack Snyder to direct Aquaman movie.
> Says he was hired as Aquaman for a long time before the official release, but had to keep his mouth shut.
> Aquaman will be a bad-ass, otherwise, they wouldn't cast me for the role.
> Says if he was not Aquaman, he wanted to do Lobo.


Via CBM and DCU movies on Twitter from Comic-Con in São Paulo, Brazil.

----------


## Triple J

So 4 movies:

BvS: DOJ
Aquaman
JL Part 1 & Part 2

(There is an open spot, if we don't include BvS. Could be a sequel or could be him making an appearance in one of the other movies - solo films).

----------


## Predator JP

Zack Snyder could be a good choice for Aquaman movie. he knows how to make badass visuals.

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> Oprah is annoying and pretentious these days and I've never been impressed with anything she's done, especially for the role Waller would require. Viola Davis would be great, though that'd involve having the much-hated New 52 slim version


You should see _The Color Purple_, then. She's fantastic in that film as someone who won't take s**t from no one.  I never saw it, but I heard she was really good in_ Lee Daniels' The Butler_ also.

----------


## Black_Adam

> So 4 movies:
> 
> BvS: DOJ
> Aquaman
> JL Part 1 & Part 2
> 
> (There is an open spot, if we don't include BvS. Could be a sequel or could be him making an appearance in one of the other movies - solo films).


Nice! Hopefully audiences take to his character and the solo movie is a success, because there is way too much awesome Aquaman stuff to squeeze into one movie. One of those 4 movies may be for the sequel.

----------


## Ceebiro

> You should see _The Color Purple_, then. She's fantastic in that film as someone who won't take s**t from no one.  I never saw it, but I heard she was really good in_ Lee Daniels' The Butler_ also.


I definitely think Oprah could kill it as Waller, but I don't think there is any way she would do a superhero film based on her body of work thus far. I would love it if she did though. While it could be argued that the other potential candidates are better actresses overall, Waller actually seems like a good fit for Oprah. 

Second option is of course C.C.H. Pounder. I honestly cannot fathom why WB just doesn't pull the trigger on that. Sure she doesn't have the buzz of Viola Davis or Octavia Spencer but they actually don't need that. They already have Smith and Hardy for name stars. Just pay the woman and let her bring make the animated to live-action transition.

----------


## Triple J

> Nice! Hopefully audiences take to his character and the solo movie is a success, because there is way too much awesome Aquaman stuff to squeeze into one movie. One of those 4 movies may be for the sequel.


I hope so too  :Big Grin: 

Aquaman is awesome...one of my favorite heroes. But, he is viewed as a joke..thanks to Super friends and all. I hope this new cinematic universe changes that (I know it will!).

----------


## Sirzechs

If they were to make a Legion film what do you guys think would be the best line up?

----------


## Triple J

> If they were to make a Legion film what do you guys think would be the best line up?


Hmm...I think Legion might be better suited to small screen. Then again, I am not sure. I have only read a couple of their stories, and the team is usually big..so, not sure.

----------


## upgrayedd

> If they were to make a Legion film what do you guys think would be the best line up?


 if they have Matter-Eater Lad, I would be hooked! He is one of my all time favorites, perfect powers for small screen too

----------


## colonyofcells

The boy kid lad code names of the legion should work ok in a cartoon movie for kids.

----------


## Triple J

> The boy kid lad code names of the legion should work ok in a cartoon movie for kids.


Hmm, perhaps. Shazam is the one targeting kids.

Each movie announced catering to different tastes, targeting (or at least trying to) different audiences, which is great.

Marvel also seem to be doing that lately...expanding into Spy territory with Winter Soldier - one heck of a film, and space adventure with GOTG. Not a fan of the latter, but good try anyways. Winter Soldier one the other hand, is the best film Marvel has put out so far, in my opinion.

----------


## Triple J

People say that WB doesn't take DC seriously (which, if you look in the past, I agree). But, times are different now. Just look at the big picture:

*Movies*: 10+ Films planned from 2016-2020.

*Live action TV*: Arrow, Flash, Gotham, Constantine, iZombie, Supergirl, Titans, Static and Krypton

*Animated Movies*: 3 an year (2 in new 52 continuity, 1 standalone). Throne of Atlantis in Jan.

*Video games*: Injustice 2 underway, Arkham Knight next year. Lego Batman 3 (which is just Justice League) is already out. I wish they would make a Justice League video game (Arkham style, Injustice was great..but was bit repetitive too). A video game based on one of the other JL characters would be great too - WW, Flash.

They had one planned for Flash, but canceled it for some reason.

Here's some footage of the game:




Only thing missing is *Animated Series*. There is a JL Machinima series (3 part, so limited) coming out next year, but that's all we have (apart from Teen titans go, which is targeted towards little kids).

----------


## d.w washburn

I would like to see an Animated Film done of L.E.G.I.O.N

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Hobbit is out soon, you reckon the rumour about the attached BvS trailer is true?

----------


## gbshabo

> Hobbit is out soon, you reckon the rumour about the attached BvS trailer is true?


I'd bet on it

http://comicbook.com/2014/11/10/batm...-be-released-w


Though still rumour if the hint from the youtube vid is really from WB then I'd say definitely

----------


## Black_Adam

> They had one planned for Flash, but canceled it for some reason.
> 
> Here's some footage of the game:


Have you played InFamous Second Son? There is a neon power which lets you run at super speed, up buildings and everything, it instantly made me think how could it would be to have a Flash game like it.

So shooting has wrapped on BvS, I'm not sure how long the typical post production process is but 2016 seems like an awfully long time to wait, so the movie could theoretically be ready by Q3/Q4 next year and just sitting there waiting for release?

----------


## kingkasara

> So shooting has wrapped on BvS, I'm not sure how long the typical post production process is but 2016 seems like an awfully long time to wait, so the movie could theoretically be ready by Q3/Q4 next year and just sitting there waiting for release?


I think CGI for these films can take quite a while to render, and given the special effects in this one, between all the powered characters and the natural sequel escalation from the first film (however they manage to handle that...) I guess that may explain the length.

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

Principal photography has wrapped. There will probably still be pick-ups and other assorted post-production issues that need to be finished up. And also if they're going to jump to JL really quickly, they're probably going to get photography started on that. It will probably be a long production, shooting two movies at once.

----------


## Venomous Mask

Anymore news on the Lobo film?

----------


## Triple J

> Have you played InFamous Second Son? There is a neon power which lets you run at super speed, up buildings and everything, it instantly made me think how could it would be to have a Flash game like it.
> 
> So shooting has wrapped on BvS, I'm not sure how long the typical post production process is but 2016 seems like an awfully long time to wait, so the movie could theoretically be ready by Q3/Q4 next year and just sitting there waiting for release.
> 
> Hmm, yeah that's a good model to adapt.





> I think CGI for these films can take quite a while to render, and given the special effects in this one, between all the powered characters and the natural sequel escalation from the first film (however they manage to handle that...) I guess that may explain the length.


Yeah, that's what I am guessing too.

But, 12+ months does sound a bit lengthy...I am guessing we will be seeing a lot of effects  :Big Grin:  And if there are any cameo scenes (Flash, GL and so forth..they might need to work on those).

----------


## golgi

Yes! Please be true. Aquaman might have it's director and his name is Jeff Nichols. Interesting choice, if true.

http://www.newsarama.com/22990-repor...t-aquaman.html

----------


## Predator JP

i loved both of his films, Take Shelter and Mud.
great choice if true.

----------


## Triple J

New Report that WB has hired 6 Writers For WW (6 Different Scripts)

- Not actually a report, but a tweet from a screenwriter.

*Source*: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=112586

I think this is a great move, shows that they are really committed to making a good WW film.

----------


## Robotman

Some Suicide Squad news

_Comic Book Movie has been contacted by a Reddit user claiming to have attended a focus testing session for the upcoming WB/DC film. The post on Reddit mentions that Deathstroke may have a large part to play in the film. The informant included a bit of what they learned about the film's plot:

What we were given mentioned Harley Quinn being needed to decipher a complex series of bombs planted throughout Gotham. Harley is estranged from The Joker, and her knowledge is being used to figure out where The Joker has placed the bombs. Deathstroke is a Amanda Waller's personal bodyguard, and he's placed in the squad to oversee that they do not deviate from the mission perimeters. The plot then becomes more complex as The Joker has a far more complex goal in mind.
The Redditor claims to have seen Deathstroke concept art, and even clarified via Twitter DM that he did not confuse Deadshot with the similarly named Deathstroke. The article also suggests that Harley Quinn may be the film's main protagonist._



I was really hoping that Deathstroke would play a part in this movie but not as an actual member of the Squad. He's the type of character that would require an entire team to take down. Would be fun to see the SS try to track down Slade. 
Like hearing that Harley will be the main protagonist as I've had fears that Will Smith would completely take over the movie from the other members.

----------


## Inhuman X

I would watch just to see if some one can finally do Deathstroke justice...  :Smile:

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Some Suicide Squad news
> 
> _Comic Book Movie has been contacted by a Reddit user claiming to have attended a focus testing session for the upcoming WB/DC film. The post on Reddit mentions that Deathstroke may have a large part to play in the film. The informant included a bit of what they learned about the film's plot:
> 
> What we were given mentioned Harley Quinn being needed to decipher a complex series of bombs planted throughout Gotham. Harley is estranged from The Joker, and her knowledge is being used to figure out where The Joker has placed the bombs. Deathstroke is a Amanda Waller's personal bodyguard, and he's placed in the squad to oversee that they do not deviate from the mission perimeters. The plot then becomes more complex as The Joker has a far more complex goal in mind.
> The Redditor claims to have seen Deathstroke concept art, and even clarified via Twitter DM that he did not confuse Deadshot with the similarly named Deathstroke. The article also suggests that Harley Quinn may be the film's main protagonist._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh my God, oh my God ! If this rumor is real, Batman is surely going to show up at some point in the movie. Make it so WB, make it so.

----------


## Robotman

So if Deathstroke is now Waller's watchdog and the Squad's supervisor what role does Rick Flag play?

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Some Suicide Squad news
> 
> _Comic Book Movie has been contacted by a Reddit user claiming to have attended a focus testing session for the upcoming WB/DC film. The post on Reddit mentions that Deathstroke may have a large part to play in the film. The informant included a bit of what they learned about the film's plot:
> 
> What we were given mentioned Harley Quinn being needed to decipher a complex series of bombs planted throughout Gotham. Harley is estranged from The Joker, and her knowledge is being used to figure out where The Joker has placed the bombs. Deathstroke is a Amanda Waller's personal bodyguard, and he's placed in the squad to oversee that they do not deviate from the mission perimeters. The plot then becomes more complex as The Joker has a far more complex goal in mind.
> The Redditor claims to have seen Deathstroke concept art, and even clarified via Twitter DM that he did not confuse Deadshot with the similarly named Deathstroke. The article also suggests that Harley Quinn may be the film's main protagonist._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would the Suicide Squad be used to disarm bombs in Gotham? And, more to the point, have one of these "leaked plot stuff" ever turned out to be even slightly true?

----------


## Sirzechs

> Yeah, that's what I am guessing too.
> 
> But, 12+ months does sound a bit lengthy...I am guessing we will be seeing a lot of effects  And if there are any cameo scenes (Flash, GL and so forth..they might need to work on those).


You know that blood drop scene from Incredible Hulk? it took a whole year to perfect and it was like 10 secs long.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Why would the Suicide Squad be used to disarm bombs in Gotham?


If this is true, then WB is trying to cover all their bases by somehow bringing in Batman/Bruce Wayne into the film. I know some people will have a problem with that, but from a business standpoint, it makes tremendous sense for an unproven group of characters in a live-action setting.

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> So if Deathstroke is now Waller's watchdog and the Squad's supervisor what role does Rick Flag play?





> Why would the Suicide Squad be used to disarm bombs in Gotham? And, more to the point, have one of these "leaked plot stuff" ever turned out to be even slightly true?


Yeah these things don't pass the smell test. I guess wild, untrue SS rumors are the new wild, untrue BvS rumors.

----------


## Starchild

> If this is true, then WB is trying to cover all their bases by somehow bringing in Batman/Bruce Wayne into the film. I know some people will have a problem with that, but from a business standpoint, it makes tremendous sense for an unproven group of characters in a live-action setting.



It's still disappointing in a way. It tells me that DC is afraid and doesn't have faith in any of their properties.

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe we will see a GL Batman team up movie too to avoid losing money.

----------


## Inhuman X

> If this is true, then WB is trying to cover all their bases by somehow bringing in Batman/Bruce Wayne into the film. I know some people will have a problem with that, but from a business standpoint, it makes tremendous sense for an unproven group of characters in a live-action setting.





> Why would the Suicide Squad be used to disarm bombs in Gotham? And, more to the point, have one of these "leaked plot stuff" ever turned out to be even slightly true?





> Yeah these things don't pass the smell test. I guess wild, untrue SS rumors are the new wild, untrue BvS rumors.


Actually these rumors read very much like a script based on DC's Animated - Batman: Assault on Arkham. Forewarning it is a mature animated film if you haven't seen it (ie not for the kids.) The bomb worked well there and Batman was in play while the film focused on the Suicide Squad. Maybe they are swapping out Bats for Deathstroke to keep people on their toes per say... It could work.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's still disappointing in a way. It tells me that DC is afraid and doesn't have faith in any of their properties.


If the rumor is true (at this point, we can't make any definite assertions one way or the other), it would have zero to do with not having any faith in their properties. If that were the case, there would be no Suicide Squad film in development. WB might be bringing in Batman because there are movies that have the right cast, script, director, etc., yet still fail or do mediocre box office. I don't think WB feels it will fail with or without Bruce (since, unless it's a small prestige film, no company makes a film knowing it won't turn a profit), but Bats would be kind of an insurance policy if, for whatever reason, movie fans don't turn out to see the flick.

----------


## Beantownbrown

SHAZAM Is Set In The DC Cinematic Universe; James Gunn Would Direct If He Could




> For a variety of reasons, some comic book fans believe that Shazam (which stars Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson as Black Adam) will NOT be set in the DC Cinematic Universe. Have DC Comics themselves finally set the record straight? It appears that way, as a blog post from the comic book publisher highlights the announcement of a DC Cinematic Universe, pointing out that Warner Bros., "revealed a full slate of ten DC Entertainment feature films all set within the same universe." Of course, just because all of these movies take place in the same world, that doesn't mean we'll see constant crossovers. Like Guardians of the Galaxy, Shazam will more than likely just expand the DC Cinematic Universe! Talking of that Marvel team, director James Gunn was asked on Facebook whether he would like to helm a DC Comics movie and if he is precluded (prevented from) making one. "I am precluded. Would have loved to have done Shazam." That would have been something to see, eh? What do you guys think? Be sure to share your thoughts on all of this below...


http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=112789

----------


## Robotman

Well that's good to hear. I was sad we weren't going to at least have the possibility of Shazam and Superman teaming up and to see Black Adam against the Justice League. Now at least there is some hope of that eventually happening.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> If this is true, then WB is trying to cover all their bases by somehow bringing in Batman/Bruce Wayne into the film. I know some people will have a problem with that, but from a business standpoint, it makes tremendous sense for an unproven group of characters in a live-action setting.


I'm sure they'd love to get Batman in there somehow, but it still doesn't make any sense to use Suicide Squad to defuse bombs in Gotham City. It's a very public mission without any ethical problems; the complete opposite of the stuff SS does.

----------


## colonyofcells

DC can probably also do an arkham movie.

----------


## JaggedFel

Sure its unproven characters but some of the actors are pretty big names. As for Batman maybe an ending scene between him and Waller in Waller's Office.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Yeah a suicide squad mission is usually killing a bunch of people in a country the US doesn't have good relations with.
disarming bombs in gotham is something that batman would do

----------


## JaggedFel

Yeah not exactly morally questionable mission. Typical Suicide Squad mission is more kill this Warlord or extract this Scientist while killing fodder.

----------


## Triple J

By the way there are rumors floating around that a teaser will be released along Jupiter Ascending (not particularly a rumor, a guess..since the website that originally posted this had major WB film teasers listed to be shown along Jupiter Ascending).

Note: They also acknowledge that it is an indication of when they might be released..nothing official.

It's amazing that so many people take is officially confirmed (lot of people still people that Jena Malone is Robin even though that hasn't been confirmed yet).

----------


## Rogue Star

Glad someone resurrected this thread for me as I couldn't find it (probably because I spent most of my time looking in the tv/film subforum).

I'd love to see Carrie Kelly and I'm going to cling to the hope that Jena Malone is playing her until I see BvS.

----------


## matthew

> If this is true, then WB is trying to cover all their bases by somehow bringing in Batman/Bruce Wayne into the film. I know some people will have a problem with that, but from a business standpoint, it makes tremendous sense for an unproven group of characters in a live-action setting.


No, they are just letting the audience know that it all takes place in the same universe, that's all. Small touches like this are important to make the franchise feel cohesive.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> No, they are just letting the audience know that it all takes place in the same universe, that's all. Small touches like this are important to make the franchise feel cohesive.


I agree there's that, too.

----------


## byrd156

Another rumor to add to the pile. Dawn of Justice being a two-parter.

http://comicbook.com/2015/01/09/batm...t-into-two-pa/

----------


## Triple J

Yeah, probably just that's another rumor.

On the other hand, they did shoot for a long time, and there were rumors about JL being shot back to back..what if it was the 2nd part of BvS?

Of course, one has to wonder why WB didn't announce this sooner (if it is true)....Now, imagine if WB came out tomorrow confirming this, it will probably break the internet...so, it is possible that they chose to remain secretive about it.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

This makes sense, they did finish shooting pretty early for a 2016 film and what better way to build more hype? Also 3 years between MoS and BvS does feel a tad to long. I would be so so so happy if this is annouced. Also makes more sense with all the characters  in here what better way to flesh them all out in 2 films?

But I shan't get my hopes up.

----------


## Robotman

Getting to see Batman v. Superman 5 months earlier than expected? Yes please!!!

----------


## SpideyZERO

Wow. I don't mind this at all

Bring it!

----------


## BloodOps

That definitely looks like an official promo...

this might be one rumor that turns out true, guess we'll know for sure in February.

----------


## Rogue Star

If this was real, they'd be releasing movies less than a year apart and that feels like odd scheduling - too odd to be true.

----------


## colonyofcells

Can easily increase profits by dividing a long film into 2.

----------


## Pinsir

Its been confirmed that the two-parter thing is a fake. WB does not any domains or copyright on the title of the movie.

Also split-films suck.

----------


## Triple J

> Its been confirmed that the two-parter thing is a fake. WB does not any domains or copyright on the title of the movie.
> 
> Also split-films suck.


Yup. Man of Steel has confirmed it himself  :Big Grin: 

Source

----------


## Robotman

Superman fighting for Truth, Justice, and the end of wild internet rumors.

----------


## JaggedFel

Think the Truth part covers that.

----------


## Robotman

> Think the Truth part covers that.


That's true.

----------


## nightrider

> Yup. Man of Steel has confirmed it himself 
> 
> Source


yes, so glad that the man of steel wont be injured with his fight with batman. guess there'll be no batgod.

----------


## Triple J

Cavill on BvS

----------


## Triple J

Guillermo Grispo - DOJ Fight Choreographer




> How was it to prepare the fights between Batman and Superman?
> 
> I was fascinated. I’m telling you, for me, I like both of the characters, but Batman I really love. In 2007 I almost worked on the second part of Christopher Nolan’s trilogy, but ultimately questions about the contract were not resolved and it all fell apart [se me cayo el mundo is idiomatic]. Luckily, afterwards Zack brought Batman into this project, making it an origin of the Justice League. Which means being in charge of the entire franchise and all the sequels that will be Zack’s next projects.
> 
> And what role did you have in the film?
> 
> I prepared choreography for the stunt coordinator and second unit director, Damon Caro, who Zack has work with for years. I worked with them on 300, Sucker Punch and the first Superman Man of Steel, and in truth, those movies were my film school. To me, Zack is the biggest name in action films, and he is an expert, but at the same time he gives free reign for designing the fights and doing the editing. Also, I’m tasked [not a great word] with operating the camera for the action shot tests, doing the choreography, and afterwards all of the image composition for these kinds of sample action scenes.
> 
> What can you tell us the story?
> ...


Thanks to Batman News

I have no doubt that this version of Batman - true to comics; martial arts specialist!

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Guillermo Grispo - DOJ Fight Choreographer
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to Batman News
> 
> I have no doubt that this version of Batman - true to comics; martial arts specialist!


Well they should just say they want Batman to fight more like in the comic book 
Nolan's movies were choreographed badly but the fighting was realistic

----------


## Robotman

Im so excited to finally see Batman fight the way he does in the comics. Obviously for that to happen there needs to be a lot of special effects. I loved Nolan's films but his Batman fought like what he was. a guy in an uncomfortable rubber bat suit. 

Rumors that the trailer will hit next month. I wonder if WB will take advantage of the huge Super Bowl audience and debut it during the big game. Marvel has premiered a number of their trailers during the biggest day in American sports.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Jake Gyllenhaal Passes on Suicide Squad




> Following Tom Hardys departure from the role of Rick Flag, sources now tell Variety that Jake Gyllenhaal has passed on an offer to play the leader of the superhero team.


http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ja...ag-1201411414/

----------


## Rogue Star

> Jake Gyllenhaal Passes on ‘Suicide Squad’
> 
> 
> 
> http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ja...ag-1201411414/


It's getting to the point that I would prefer to not know about actors "being in talks" for a role. Just let me know when it's a done deal.

----------


## Blackest Knight

This sounds very, very promising!

http://www.movieweb.com/aquaman-movi...ban-noam-murro




> Today, a new report from Latino Review reveals that Jeff Nichols is still in the running to direct, but now Noam Murro (300: Rise of an Empire) has emerged as another directorial candidate, with Warner Bros. also eyeing Karl Urban for a supporting role that may be the villain.
> 
> Warner Bros. is reportedly waiting for Karl Urban to start and finish production on Star Trek 3 sometime this year, so they can lock him in to join the cast of Aquaman. The studio has set a July 27, 2018 release date for Aquaman, but it isn't known when they may actually start production. Karl Urban starred in the Warner Bros. Television-produced Almost Human, and he was a top contender to play Batman before Christian Bale won the role. It isn't known who exactly the villain may be in Aquaman, but some speculate it may be Ocean Master.


I want Jeff Nichols for director. And if Karl Urban is up for a villain role, it's gotta be Ocean Master!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Triple J

> This sounds very, very promising!
> 
> http://www.movieweb.com/aquaman-movi...ban-noam-murro
> 
> 
> 
> I want Jeff Nichols for director. And if Karl Urban is up for a villain role, it's gotta be Ocean Master!


It does sound interesting..but I wouldn't get my hopes up yet (as LT is the source).

----------


## matthew

> Guillermo Grispo - DOJ Fight Choreographer
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to Batman News
> 
> I have no doubt that this version of Batman - true to comics; martial arts specialist!


Tldr; Zack Snyder only cares about action scenes to the detriment of story.

----------


## Triple J

> Tldr; Zack Snyder only cares about action scenes to the detriment of story.


Perhaps. In any case, story is mostly in the hands of scriptwriter, right?

I believe MOS was great, in terms of direction at least. Most of the flaws were with the script; it could have been better. Goyer was the one who wrote it (not that he is bad or anything. I liked Batman Begins and I also like Constantine, both of which were written by him). They got a better script writer this time..so, let's see.

----------


## Broddie

> Perhaps. In any case, story is mostly in the hands of scriptwriter, right?
> 
> I believe MOS was great, in terms of direction at least. Most of the flaws were with the script; it could have been better. Goyer was the one who wrote it (not that he is bad or anything. I liked Batman Begins and I also like Constantine, both of which were written by him). They got a better script writer this time..so, let's see.


I don't think the direction in MOS was all that great. There were plenty of lackluster performances all over that movie and that's the fault of the director. Snyder got more out of his actors in Watchmen and even Sucker Punch of all movies.

----------


## Triple J

Tyrese Gibson posted this on his Instagram:



So, are we getting John Stewart on JL?


Source: http://instagram.com/p/yNtc3BoZsX/?modal=true

----------


## Triple J

> I don't think the direction in MOS was all that great. There were plenty of lackluster performances all over that movie and that's the fault of the director. Snyder got more out of his actors in Watchmen and even Sucker Punch of all movies.


I thought the performance was okay...dialogue was mediocre; could have been a lot better.

Hopefully, DOJ will be a lot better  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Tyrese Gibson posted this on his Instagram:
> 
> 
> 
> So, are we getting John Stewart on JL?
> 
> 
> Source: http://instagram.com/p/yNtc3BoZsX/?modal=true


Gibson wanted to play Green Lantern since 2007. He is really a fan I guess.

----------


## Hawkman

> I want Jeff Nichols for director. And if Karl Urban is up for a villain role, it's gotta be Ocean Master!


Boo!  I want Karl Urban as Hawkman, darn it!

----------


## Rogue Star

> Tyrese Gibson posted this on his Instagram:
> 
> 
> 
> So, are we getting John Stewart on JL?
> 
> 
> Source: http://instagram.com/p/yNtc3BoZsX/?modal=true


Tyrese as John Stewart?  I'm sorry Tye, I truly appreciate your enthusiasm but I don't believe it's the right fit. Will Smith should have been John Stewart. Since he's busy with Suicide Squad now I guess WB is better off waiting for the Thor franchise to end so they can nab Idris Elba.

----------


## matthew

> Perhaps. In any case, story is mostly in the hands of scriptwriter, right?
> 
> I believe MOS was great, in terms of direction at least. Most of the flaws were with the script; it could have been better. Goyer was the one who wrote it (not that he is bad or anything. I liked Batman Begins and I also like Constantine, both of which were written by him). They got a better script writer this time..so, let's see.


Screenwriters the ones that randomly thought Jor El needed a pet dragon?

----------


## nightrider

> Screenwriters the ones that randomly thought Jor El needed a pet dragon?


why is that an issue though.

----------


## Robotman

Tyrese would be a terrible John Stewart. I don't think this is true. But you can't blame any actor wanting to be a part of a big budget super hero movie. They're still one of the biggest money makers in Hollywood.

----------


## Triple J

Posted again: http://instagram.com/p/yQbULWoZs7/?modal=true

Hmm, now I am beginning to wonder, if WB has already cast him for the role.

----------


## Triple J

> Tyrese as John Stewart?  I'm sorry Tye, I truly appreciate your enthusiasm but I don't believe it's the right fit. Will Smith should have been John Stewart. Since he's busy with Suicide Squad now I guess WB is better off waiting for the Thor franchise to end so they can nab Idris Elba.





> Tyrese would be a terrible John Stewart. I don't think this is true. But you can't blame any actor wanting to be a part of a big budget super hero movie. They're still one of the biggest money makers in Hollywood.


Hmm, everyone is saying that (about Elba being the best fit).

Perhaps or perhaps not.

We fans aren't the best at making casting choices (and history does prove that). 

I don't believe WB should delay GL just to get Elba for Stewart; just because he looks the part doesn't mean we will be a great Stewart.

----------


## nightrider

> Hmm, everyone is saying that (about Elba being the best fit).
> 
> Perhaps or perhaps not.
> 
> We fans aren't the best at making casting choices (and history does prove that). 
> 
> I don't believe WB should delay GL just to get Elba for Stewart; just because he looks the part doesn't mean we will be a great Stewart.


Or they could just use Hal Jordan.

----------


## Sodam Yat

Why did Tyrese re-post his GL pic with a minor color filter difference on Instagram? 

He also said: 


> Loving this energy..... Shout to @_raphael_leite_ Idris fall back I got this! "In the brightest day, in the blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight. Let all who worship evil's might, Beware of the power of Green Lantern's light!"


Looks like he's trying to compete with Idris Elba lol.

----------


## Rogue Star

I think the world is pretty much screaming for Idris to play the part. If Tyrese knows, surely WB knows. lol

He clearly wants to be the man on a franchise. I can't blame him really. There are so few big time options available for him that it makes sense that he would lobby this hard for Green Lantern.  Maybe he should aim a little lower though; like Black Lightning lower.

----------


## FlashingSabre

I wish they were pushing Black Lightning over Cyborg.

----------


## Triple J

> I wish they were pushing Black Lightning over Cyborg.


I like both characters, although BL, as a character is more developed (compared to Cyborg's current status on JL). 

Cyborg is more popular and DC does want to make him even more popular (at least it seems like it; giving him a bigger push across various media).

----------


## Sodam Yat

I always thought that DC don't use much of BL, because of some licensing issues they had with him a while ago.

----------


## Desh

> Why did Tyrese re-post his GL pic with a minor color filter difference on Instagram? 
> 
> He also said: 
> 
> Looks like he's trying to compete with Idris Elba lol.


Either that, or he's hinting that he got the part instead of Elba. In any case, this looks great for John Stewart's cinematic prospects, which makes me giddy!

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Either that, or he's hinting that he got the part instead of Elba. In any case, this looks great for John Stewart's cinematic prospects, which makes me giddy!


I'm excited too!

Tyrese also had this to say about Idris Elba: 




> IDRIS ELBA WAS THE FRONT RUNNER FOR JOHN STEWART BUT HAD TO PASS BECAUSE OF HIS COMMITMENT TO MARVEL.
> 
> I just want to make this clear. Even though we want Idris Elba as John Stewart, as of now, he can't take the role because of his agreement with Marvel. There is no doubt that he wants to leave Marvel and I think his contract will possibly end in 2017 with Thor 3. Tyrese has recently posted multiple fan-art pictures of himself as John Stewart with many people giving him negative remarks about it which is so unnecessary. If Tyrese might be cast as John Stewart, you MUST not criticize him and give him a chance (as you can tell, he's very serious).


It could be that WB is probably looking for talent that's suitable for the role as John Stewart, which is why other (black) actors referenced John Stewart in interviews.

----------


## Desh

This is without a shadow of a doubt why Elba has vocally complained about Marvel lately. They're contractually locking him up with a lame role, if only to prevent him from being Green Lantern, it seems. That has got to be very frustrating for Elba.

Still! Yay for John Stewart!

This may also be why there has been no casting notice of Green Lantern yet. Perhaps WB has been trying to get Elba, but Disney has been legally stonewalling them. Also, that quote above says that WB actually has been looking for John!!!

----------


## Desh

Also, Tyrese recently met with Jim Lee, so it looks like something is up:
http://instagram.com/p/yRL5ffoZns/?modal=true

----------


## Triple J

> This is without a shadow of a doubt why Elba has vocally complained about Marvel lately. They're contractually locking him up with a lame role, if only to prevent him from being Green Lantern, it seems. That has got to be very frustrating for Elba.
> 
> Still! Yay for John Stewart!
> 
> This may also be why there has been no casting notice of Green Lantern yet. Perhaps WB has been trying to get Elba, but Disney has been legally stonewalling them. Also, that quote above says that WB actually has been looking for John!!!


Perhaps. But, remember Luthor?

Everyone was recommending Heisenberg for Lex, but WB went for Eisenberg (a lot of people are still skeptical about that. I think it could work. Anyways, we will see how it goes. I don't think they would cast him as Lex without any good reason; perhaps he impressed them in his audition as Lex).

WB/DC seems like to odd choices (and it has worked wonders for them in the past). Of course, there have also been some mistakes.




> Also, Tyrese recently met with Jim Lee, so it looks like something is up:
> http://instagram.com/p/yRL5ffoZns/?modal=true


Hmm, interesting indeed.

----------


## Rogue Star

I don't believe Idris can't leave Marvel for DC.  It's more like he can't work for both.  If he really wanted to drop out of his role as Heimdall I'm pretty sure he could just say, "screw you guys, I'm going home."

----------


## Triple J

Anyways, which story lines would you like to see adapted for the cinematic universe?

I would very much like to see Infinite Crisis, well...especially the particular events before IC where part of the team wipes Batman's mind and he loses it (well, creates a satellite that stores and tracks meta humans, which is then take advantage of by Alexander Luthor and Maxwell Lord).

Doesn't have to be them, any other villain (someone with the skills/resources to pull it off - Perhaps Lex himself) should suffice.

Would also love to see a JLI film - Booster Gold, Blue Beetle (Ted), Guy, Ice, Fire and perhaps even Captain Atom  :Big Grin:  Lighten up the cinematic universe a bit with this team  :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Looks like Aquaman won't be blonde:
http://batman-news.com/2015/01/27/ja...n-wont-blonde/

I really don't mind tbh, I am just glad we are getting a live action AM. I assume they toyed with the idea but it didn't turn out well?

----------


## Jphu8414

> Looks like Aquaman won't be blonde:
> http://batman-news.com/2015/01/27/ja...n-wont-blonde/
> 
> I really don't mind tbh, I am just glad we are getting a live action AM. I assume they toyed with the idea but it didn't turn out well?


Not a big deal to me either.
I personally don't think Jason Momoa would look great as blonde either

----------


## Triple J

> Looks like Aquaman won't be blonde:
> http://batman-news.com/2015/01/27/ja...n-wont-blonde/
> 
> I really don't mind tbh, I am just glad we are getting a live action AM. I assume they toyed with the idea but it didn't turn out well?


I don't mind either, although Blonde AM would have been nice (since that's the version in main continuity).

I hope they adapt Throne of Atlantis story line (this time, with actual characterization).

----------


## Robotman

I can understand John Stewart fans really wanting to see their favorite character on the big screen but are people actually excited about freakin Tyrese? They should get, you know, a good actor for the role. I know it probabaly won't happen but I'm still holding out hope that Idris Elba gets cast. Idris Elba and Tyrese are on opposite ends of the awesome meter.

----------


## Triple J

*Mamoa on AM*




> “It’s awesome as an actor to know what your future is going to be because I have children and I’ve busted my ass to put food on the table,” he says. “It’s awesome knowing that I’m going to be in Justice League because my son is the biggest Batman fan and my daughter loves Wonder Woman. It’ll be cool for them to see me in something because they’re not going to be watching Game of Thrones or Red Road anytime soon, but now they can see Daddy kicking ass in IMAX.”
> 
> “I’ve had to bust ass to be in this industry. A lot of things are very black and white,” he says. “Aquaman is especially cool because being a Kanaka Maoli—being Hawaiian—our Gods are Kanaloa and Maui, and the Earth is 71 percent water, so I get to represent that. And I’m someone who gets to represent all the islanders, not some blond-haired superhero. It’s cool that there’s a brown-skinned superhero.”


Source: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...es-return.html

----------


## Hatestorm

> not some blond-haired superhero.


A blatant and sickening display of hatred towards blonde men.

----------


## Triple J

*Ezra Miller on Long Term Contract - Portraying Flash on the big screen*




> "It's a mixed bag but I'm happy - I'm going to say I feel really happy about it in one way because the idea of actually having a steady job in my life is actually incredibly comforting.  It's something I didn't necessarily think I would ever have.   And then of course, there are the moments when responsibility-dodging, adolescent-me is like, 'No, I don't wan to' [laughs].  [But] that's a very small part.  At this point, it's a diminishing voice.  Every time I think about that reality, it makes me extremely happy.  I'm really stoked and I would do it for forty years.  That contract could have said anything."


Source: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=114538

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> *Ezra Miller on Long Term Contract - Portraying Flash on the big screen*
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=114538


Miller is going to own this role. I am sure of it.

----------


## byrd156

Which Flash will Miller be playing?

----------


## Sodam Yat

I'm actually curious on which Flash he'll be playing as well. I do wonder why DC never announced which character he'll be playing after the casting choice.

----------


## colonyofcells

Dc seems to be standardizing the image of the JL in all media and merchandize, so I would assume Barry and Hal in JL.

----------


## Sodam Yat

It looks like Tyrese is literally traveling to WB to have possible discussions about Green Lantern John Stewart.

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Tyres...ern-69461.html

Credit for Desh for bringing this up in John's appreciation thread.

Tyrese is really serious lol.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It looks like Tyrese is literally traveling to WB to have possible discussions about Green Lantern John Stewart.
> 
> http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Tyres...ern-69461.html
> 
> Credit for Desh for bringing this up in John's appreciation thread.
> 
> Tyrese is really serious lol.


Do we have somebody cast for Cyborg yet? I have a feeling this will be like the Rock-as-John-Stewart rumors from last year. At least Tyrese makes much more sense than Dwayne Johnson did, though.

----------


## Triple J

> Miller is going to own this role. I am sure of it.


I hope so  :Big Grin: 




> Which Flash will Miller be playing?





> I'm actually curious on which Flash he'll be playing as well. I do wonder why DC never announced which character he'll be playing after the casting choice.





> Dc seems to be standardizing the image of the JL in all media and merchandize, so I would assume Barry and Hal in JL.


I want to say Barry, because of the reasons colonyofcells stated.

And DC entertainment has already made it clear that they are okay with several versions/depictions of the same characters (Multiverse)..so it could definitely be Barry.

On the other hand, he could just be Wally...so as to maintain a 'bigger' difference b/w CW Flash and big screen Flash.

----------


## Triple J

> It looks like Tyrese is literally traveling to WB to have possible discussions about Green Lantern John Stewart.
> 
> http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Tyres...ern-69461.html
> 
> Credit for Desh for bringing this up in John's appreciation thread.
> 
> Tyrese is really serious lol.


It's great that he is taking it seriously!




> Do we have somebody cast for Cyborg yet? I have a feeling this will be like the Rock-as-John-Stewart rumors from last year. At least Tyrese makes much more sense than Dwayne Johnson did, though.


Well, Ray Fisher is cast as Victor Stone...so yeah, we do have a Cyborg.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well, Ray Fisher is cast as Victor Stone...so yeah, we do have a Cyborg.


That's right. I can't keep up with all of the announcements.  :Smile:  There might be something to the rumor then.

----------


## Desh

> Dc seems to be standardizing the image of the JL in all media and merchandize, so I would assume Barry and Hal in JL.


Hal Jordan hasn't been in the Justice League for years in the comics, though. I'm sure there was a purpose behind removing him.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Hal Jordan hasn't been in the Justice League for years in the comics, though. I'm sure there was a purpose behind removing him.


True, but Hal has been in all the cartoons, animated movies, and video games.
So, hmmmm. . . .

----------


## Sodam Yat

> I have a feeling this will be like the Rock-as-John-Stewart rumors from last year. At least Tyrese makes much more sense than Dwayne Johnson did, though.


I personally think those actors are in the know. Rock said in his interview that he wanted to play John Stewart to WB, which I don't think he would just say that out of nowhere. Now the same is going on with Tyrese. It's possible that WB is looking for someone that's suitable for the role to play John Stewart. And John Stewart has been referenced by these black actors last year or so.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I personally think those actors are in the know. Rock said in his interview that he wanted to play John Stewart to WB, which I don't think he would just say that out of nowhere.


I think that was a feint on either Dwayne Johnson's part or WB's (maybe both). Forgetting the fact he doesn't look anything like John Stewart, Green Lantern is just not going to be more muscular than Superman. Just not going to happen.




> Now the same is going on with Tyrese. It's possible that WB is looking for someone that's suitable for the role to play John Stewart. And John Stewart has been referenced by these black actors last year or so.


Tyrese Gibson certainly has a John Stewart look to him, so this might be credible. Would be interesting if WB/DC broke their de facto one-Black-founding JL'er rule, too.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> I think that was a feint on either Dwayne Johnson's part or WB's (maybe both). Forgetting the fact he doesn't look anything like John Stewart, Green Lantern is just not going to be more muscular than Superman. Just not going to happen.


True. That dude is HUGE. I think he fits much better with Black Adam or Shazam! (I'm still trying to get used to calling him Shazam!). It would be a better fit for him to use his muscles than his imagination.




> Tyrese Gibson certainly has a John Stewart look to him, so this might be credible.


I could see Tyrese resemble the JLU version than the JL version, since he looks younger than the JL version. He should keep his head shaved and have the goatee. That would make a different look compared to the others. There's nothing wrong having a Superhero facial hair  :Wink:  

I think Jason Momoa mentioned Aquaman is not going to have blonde hair in the film recently.




> Would be interesting if WB/DC broke their de facto one-Black-founding JL'er rule, too.


This would provide better challenge with their competitors by having barriers broken, which you can probably expect the same from other industries if this happen.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> True. That dude is HUGE. I think he fits much better with Black Adam or Shazam! (I'm still trying to get used to calling him Shazam!). It would be a better fit for him to use his muscles than his imagination.


Having him play Black Adam - now that makes great sense!  :Smile: 




> I could see Tyrese resemble the JLU version than the JL version, since he looks younger than the JL version. He should keep his head shaved and have the goatee. That would make a different look compared to the others. There's nothing wrong having a Superhero facial hair


I think the JLU look is his best one, IMO, so I agree with you.




> I think Jason Momoa mentioned Aquaman is not going to have blonde hair in the film recently.


I think WB realized that Momoa just doesn't have the skin tone to be a credible blond, so they said the heck with it. It will be weird seeing him that way, but it would even be weirder if Aquaman looked freaky, too.  :Big Grin: 




> This would provide better challenge with their competitors by having barriers broken, which you can probably expect the same from other industries if this happen.


It would also dispel the unfounded charge that Cyborg is only a token character in the film, too.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Having him play Black Adam - now that makes great sense! 
> 
> I think the JLU look is his best one, IMO, so I agree with you.
> 
> I think WB realized that Momoa just doesn't have the skin tone to be a credible blond, so they said the heck with it. It will be weird seeing him that way, but it would even be weirder if Aquaman looked freaky, too. 
> 
> It would also dispel the unfounded charge that Cyborg is only a token character in the film, too.


Momoa's hair may have brown hair probably in the film. I don't think his hair will be real dark. And chances are Mera's hair may not be red either as in the comics.

Very true about Cyborg. I'm hoping his movie will be good. WB seems confident with Cyborg despite the character not currently having a series. It's good to see WB taking risks and investments with minorities.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Very true about Cyborg. I'm hoping his movie will be good. WB seems confident with Cyborg despite the character not currently having a series. It's good to see WB taking risks and investments with minorities.


Cyborg has a ton of non-comics credits, though, so that makes him a legitimate pick. As for investing in minorities, I agree it's a good idea.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I do like the idea of the GL movie being more of corps movie as opposed to revolving around one GL member, that way we could get both John and Hal, but I would like Hal to be the main GL for the JL.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I hope so


I am cautiously optimistic about how well he will do in the role.  Although I have to admit that I am unsure at best about the casting.  We've haven't read much about it, but I hope that they at least looked at a few people.  From the little that we have heard it seems like Snyder might have just picked Miller... which would be disappointing.  I suppose we will learn more later.  As of right now... I am the most skeptical about Miller's casting as Flash.  I was fine with Gal as Wonder Woman and fine with Mamoa as Aquaman.  Although I am not sure if Mamoa can carry his own movie and be a big box office draw... I am still far more skeptical about Miller's casting.  My only gripe about Mamoa is that Aquaman will be quite a bit larger than Superman or Batman.

----------


## Blacksun

I think they lost a good chance of casting Chris Pine as Flash. Ezra Miller is a great actor, but I don't know if he can do flash.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think they lost a good chance of casting Chris Pine as Flash. Ezra Miller is a great actor, but I don't know if he can do flash.


That is exactly my concern.  I also wish that they had gone with an actor would look more like a classic blonde Barry Allen... especially since they didn't do that with the show.  I really doubt that Ezra Miller would look very convincing with his hair dyed blonde.

----------


## Random4

so how many official films are part of the DCU as of now

----------


## FlashingSabre

> That is exactly my concern.  I also wish that they had gone with an actor would look more like a classic blonde Barry Allen... especially since they didn't do that with the show.  I really doubt that Ezra Miller would look very convincing with his hair dyed blonde.


Yeah, he doesn't seen like a very good choice for Barry or Wally.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah, he doesn't seen like a very good choice for Barry or Wally.


He is a good actor, but I just have so much doubt about him in this role.  Heath Ledger, RDJ, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans... they all had the basic frame and similar features of their characters.   Yes he can work out and put on a little bit of mass but he still doesn't have anything like the look of Barry Allen or Wally for that matter.  The age doesn't bother me at all.  If you dyed his hair blonde or even red... it would just look odd.  Is he going to take some tanning pills that would make his skin tone match blonde hair?    

Yes DC shouldn't copy Marvel's model, but they shouldn't ignore the look of the characters.  If they wanted to stray away from the classic Aquaman with Mamoa and Gadot, it probably would have been smart to go with the classic look for Flash and Green Lantern.  Although which GL will  always confuse matters.  As I stated earlier I'm stressing the classic appearance of Barry Allen because they strayed away from it in the show.  It would have been smart to have at least one of the movie/tv Flashes resemble the comics version.  Just my opinion anyways.

----------


## Random4

Man of Steel is the only movie in the DCU right now? is this true

----------


## FlashingSabre

Also hoping for a Green Lantern Corps movie. Its probably the only way were going to get Kyle Rayner into the thing.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> Man of Steel is the only movie in the DCU right now? is this true


Until next year, yeah.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

I can't believe that I'm more excited about the Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Suicide Squad movies than The Flash.  It also feels odd that they clearly went for big names for Suicide Squad but not for their bigger franchises.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> I can't believe that I'm more excited about the Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Suicide Squad movies than The Flash.  It also feels odd that they clearly went for big names for Suicide Squad but not for their bigger franchises.


I know. Its such a weird feeling.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I know. Its such a weird feeling.


Comparing the Suicide Squad cast to the Flash casting is depressing at the moment.  Hopefully my mind will change after I see some stills or a trailer.  I am actually nervous about what we'll see... very nervous.  I kind of hope Miller drops out.  At least I have the TV show to enjoy.

----------


## golgi

I think Miller is a great up and comer. I think he'll do fine as Flash.

----------


## Triple J

Well, the casting directors clearly saw something in him.

We will see...until DOJ or JL comes out, can't tell anything for certain.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Well, the casting directors clearly saw something in him.
> 
> We will see...until DOJ or JL comes out, can't tell anything for certain.


That is one of my points.  I hope there actually was a casting process with the casting director.  I've only read a couple of interviews, but right now it seems as though Snyder just selected Miller.  We had an idea of who was up for Wonder Woman.  Who else was up for Flash and Aquaman?  I'm curious as to who else they looked at if anyone.  It still feels odd looking at  the bigger names they went for with the Suicide Squad movie.      

I have the feeling the images that we see of the Flash in DOJ will just be CGI or a stunt guy.  I'm guessing we may get an idea of what the suit looks like... but it also might might just a blur with lightning.  So we may not know anything until we get a JL trailer.

----------


## Triple J

> That is one of my points.  I hope there actually was a casting process with the casting director.  I've only read a couple of interviews, but right now it seems as though Snyder just selected Miller.  We had an idea of who was up for Wonder Woman.  Who else was up for Flash and Aquaman?  I'm curious as to who else they looked at if anyone.  It still feels odd looking at  the bigger names they went for with the Suicide Squad movie.      
> 
> I have the feeling the images that we see of the Flash in DOJ will just be CGI or a stunt guy.  I'm guessing we may get an idea of what the suit looks like... but it also might might just a blur with lightning.  So we may not know anything until we get a JL trailer.


I really don't think WB would just allow directors to select people like that...without consulting actual casting directors, especially at this stage (I am referring to WB's financial state). Sure, they are still among the top movie companies in the world, but profits as a whole are going down (which I think is the primary reason why they are aggressively expanding onto different media - New tv shows, new animated series/shows/shorts etc).

And yeah..WB is pretty much secretive about everything they do. So, we don't know who was up for the role.

As for Suicide Squad having bigger names. Well, SS is one of the 'out of there' properties (of the bunch they are making).

So, it's expected that they get big names for the movie..to get lot of people to watch it.

I know..GOTG didn't follow this. They didn't have the all big names for the cast. But, GOTG is a lot different from SS.

1) Aimed at children - SS is most likely going to be R rated.
2) Fun and comedic - I don't expect SS to be this. Although there will be a few 'comedic' moments, thanks to Harley.

Note: Some might say the Marvel brand, but I believe people exaggerate Marvel's brand power right now. A movie isn't going to do well just because it has 'Marvel' name on it. Marvel isn't that powerful, not yet (if that was the case, many of the movies with a Marvel Brand name would have made a lot more money).

Marvel has three big brands right now - IRON MAN, HULK and AVENGERS (and maybe Cap, so 4 in total).

4 Powerful brands. If they make a film about any of those characters..they will surely make money. Lots of it, even if a movie is terrible (Heck, I would say these 4 Brands are much more powerful than 'Marvel' brand).

SS might be big business internationally..depending on the action scenes and all  :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I think everyone was perfectly cast in MoS so I am giving every benefit of the doubt to DC/WB on all these castings.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I really don't think WB would just allow directors to select people like that...without consulting actual casting directors, especially at this stage (I am referring to WB's financial state). Sure, they are still among the top movie companies in the world, but profits as a whole are going down (which I think is the primary reason why they are aggressively expanding onto different media - New tv shows, new animated series/shows/shorts etc).


They have been the biggest movie studio for many years in a row.  Some directors do have that much control... and they have clearly handed the keys to Snyder.  I wouldn't be surprised to see if he just picked.  




> As for Suicide Squad having bigger names. Well, SS is one of the 'out of there' properties (of the bunch they are making).
> 
> So, it's expected that they get big names for the movie..to get lot of people to watch it.


True but wouldn't it be also smart to get big names for your biggest projects as well?  That would be one of the best guarantees for financial success.  If Miller, Gadot and Mamoa can't carry a movie on their own then it will death for those franchises and remind everyone of the mistep that was Green Lantern a few years ago.  It will make them look silly if SS does well and those don't.




> Note: Some might say the Marvel brand, but I believe people exaggerate Marvel's brand power right now. A movie isn't going to do well just because it has 'Marvel' name on it. Marvel isn't that powerful, not yet.


True,, but it is also true that one of Marvel's biggest strengths is that they have NAILED every casting for their main characters in their movies  Unless that includes Norton as Banner.  GOTG had a good script but if they didn't get those castings right things might have been different.

----------


## colonyofcells

I am glad the dc movies are quite different bec. they are influenced by the Batman movies, whereas all the marvel movies are clones of the successful Iron Man movies. I don't worry too much about casting and prefer better stories. I am also looking forward to the Vertigo movies bec. I prefer different things rather than the same money making formula in every movie.

----------


## Triple J

> They have been the biggest movie studio for many years in a row.  Some directors do have that much control... and they have clearly handed the keys to Snyder.  I wouldn't be surprised to see if he just picked.  
> 
> 
> 
> True but wouldn't it be also smart to get big names for your biggest projects as well?  That would be one of the best guarantees for financial success.  If Miller, Gadot and Mamoa can't carry a movie on their own then it will death for those franchises and remind everyone of the mistep that was Green Lantern a few years ago.  It will make them look silly if SS does well and those don't.
> 
> 
> 
> True,, but it is also true that one of Marvel's biggest strengths is that they have NAILED every casting for their main characters in their movies  Unless that includes Norton as Banner.  GOTG had a good script but if they didn't get those castings right things might have been different.


Hmm, perhaps.

Not necessarily. Remember: these movies aren't just one shots. There will be sequels and so forth, if they are a success. Getting a big star and keeping them are two different things (Marvel is already having lots of trouble with that - and, RDJ wasn't exactly at his best when they cast him as Iron Man).

Yeah, sure. But, none of the comic book roles were all that demanding to begin with. In my opinion, only one role has managed to do that - Joker. Ledger's performance was just amazing. 

Note: Then again, none of the CBMs so far are all that exceptional, compared to the best of comic books or the best movies the film industry makes each year. Hopefully, that will change in the future.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Not necessarily. Remember: these movies aren't just one shots. There will be sequels and so forth, if they are a success. Getting a big star and keeping them are two different things (Marvel is already having lots of trouble with that - and, RDJ wasn't exactly at his best when they cast him as Iron Man).


If those three movies bomb opening weekend then they are screwed financially and there will be no sequels.  So to plan for sequels when you miscast the original is shortsighted.  WB doesn't pay like Marvel which is having their issues because they are notoriously cheap even to their stars.   




> Yeah, sure. But, none of the comic book roles were all that demanding to begin with. In my opinion, only one role has managed to do that - Joker. Ledger's performance was just amazing.


I disagree... RDJ as Iron Man was perfect casting that started their entire universe... enough where he carries two bad scripts (lron Man 2 and 3.)  Evans gave just enough personality to Captain America that he wouldn't feel one note but also stayed true to the comic version.  Hemsworth did just enough to make enough people care about Thor by giving a touch of humanity.  There are nuances to Marvel's castings that most don't see.  A slight mistep and there would have been no sequels.  Their castings got the character right.  Getting a casting right is not as easy as people on these message boards think.  I speak as someone who is frequently involved in that very casting process.  Evans and Hemsworth were good castings.  In fact I still think  Evans (not bulked up) would have been a great Barry Allen.  

I think DC got it right with Cavill.  I suspect that Affleck will shock the world and make people realize that Bale was good but not great.  Mamoa will likely be good as a warrior king Aquaman.  I have more confidence that Gadot will be a good WW than Miller a good Flash... while I honestly know nothing about the guy playing Cyborg.  Can't wait to see who is cast as Shazam because that person could easily be upstaged by the Rock's charisma and presence.

----------


## Triple J

> If those three movies bomb opening weekend then they are screwed financially and there will be no sequels.  So to plan for sequels when you miscast the original is shortsighted.  WB doesn't pay like Marvel which is having their issues because they are notoriously cheap even to their stars.   
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree... RDJ as Iron Man was perfect casting that started their entire universe... enough where he carries two bad scripts (lron Man 2 and 3.)  Evans gave just enough personality to Captain America that he wouldn't feel one note but also stayed true to the comic version.  Hemsworth did just enough to make enough people care about Thor by giving a touch of humanity.  There are nuances to Marvel's castings that most don't see.  A slight mistep and there would have been no sequels.  Their castings got the character right.  Getting a casting right is not as easy as people on these message boards think.  I speak as someone who is frequently involved in that very casting process.  Evans and Hemsworth were good castings.  In fact I still think  Evans (not bulked up) would have been a great Barry Allen.  
> 
> I think DC got it right with Cavill.  I suspect that Affleck will shock the world and make people realize that Bale was good but not great.  Mamoa will likely be good as a warrior king Aquaman.  I have more confidence that Gadot will be a good WW than Miller a good Flash... while I honestly know nothing about the guy playing Cyborg.  Can't wait to see who is cast as Shazam because that person could easily be upstaged by the Rock's charisma and presence.


You can make that argument with anything and everything associated with a movie. Having a big star (or a big director or a big anything) doesn't make automatically movie better - sure, it might earn them some more money (although the production cost will be higher, so it depends). I wouldn't say miscast, not until I see the trailers (or the actual movies themselves).

WB/DC is surely taking some risks, and I do hope they got it right.

Not saying they were easy or anything. Just saying those roles were not demanding; so it was much easier to cast (compared to a role that requires great performance - the best movies of the year often have the best performances - roles which were much harder to cast). Demanding roles are much harder to get right.

RDJ, I agree. Can't see anyone else playing Iron man. But, he is just being himself (which, I would say is the perfect casting choice).

The others...I don't know. I think Marvel could replace them easily..and it would be fine. Iron Man, I don't see that. Topping RDJ's Iron man is going to be hard (because he is so perfect for the role).

Hope so.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> They have been the biggest movie studio for many years in a row.  Some directors do have that much control... and they have clearly handed the keys to Snyder.  I wouldn't be surprised to see if he just picked.  
> 
> 
> 
> True but wouldn't it be also smart to get big names for your biggest projects as well?  That would be one of the best guarantees for financial success.  If Miller, Gadot and Mamoa can't carry a movie on their own then it will death for those franchises and remind everyone of the mistep that was Green Lantern a few years ago.  It will make them look silly if SS does well and those don't.
> 
> 
> 
> True,, but it is also true that one of Marvel's biggest strengths is that they have NAILED every casting for their main characters in their movies  Unless that includes Norton as Banner.  GOTG had a good script but if they didn't get those castings right things might have been different.


Norton was a great Bruce Banner. He was just as good as Mark Ruffalo.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I wouldn't say miscast, not until I see the trailers (or the actual movies themselves).
> 
> WB/DC is surely taking some risks, and I do hope they got it right.


The only main DC character who I am calling a miscast is Miller.  The Flash is my favorite character and as of right now, I'm not looking forward to the movie.  I hope that I am proven wrong for sure.  How the Flash is portrayed in JL will go a long way towards whether I see the Flash movie opening weekend if at all.  I'll see all the others without a doubt, but if the Flash is portrayed poorly in JL then I have no problem not seeing his solo movie.  I'm am very curious as to how Gadot will be received as WW.  Some people are giving her a chance... others are not.  I'm sure that they will expect more from a WW movie than the Flash in terms of sales.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Norton was a great Bruce Banner. He was just as good as Mark Ruffalo.


I agree.  I'm just debating whether people considered that movie part of the current Marvel cinematic universe or not... and whether people considered that movie a success.  I personally liked it.  Norton's work atmosphere contributed to him not being brought back.   It wasn't his onscreen performance.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I agree.  I'm just debating whether people considered that movie part of the current Marvel cinematic universe or not... and whether people considered that movie a success.  I personally liked it.  Norton's work atmosphere contributed to him not being brought back.   It wasn't his onscreen performance.


I liked it. It had some really low points but overall I think it was a good movie.

----------


## Triple J

> The only main DC character who I am calling a miscast is Miller.  The Flash is my favorite character and as of right now, I'm not looking forward to the movie.  I hope that I am proven wrong for sure.  How the Flash is portrayed in JL will go a long way towards whether I see the Flash movie opening weekend if at all.  I'll see all the others without a doubt, but if the Flash is portrayed poorly in JL then I have no problem not seeing his solo movie.  I'm am very curious as to how Gadot will be received as WW.  Some people are giving her a chance... others are not.  I'm sure that they will expect more from a WW movie than the Flash in terms of sales.


We will see  :Big Grin: 

Yeah, I think being open minded is the best way to go (don't expect it to be good or bad - because those can affect our judgement of the movie). And besides, us comic fans are notoriously known for being wrong about the cast.

For instance: I can understand some people saying Miller is cast wrongly (I don't see him as Barry or Wally..at least not the say they are portrayed on the main continuity). 

(Continuity is another point - This is an alternate world, so I don't expect all of the main characters to be like their counterparts in new 52).

Anyways, the irony is how many people are bringing up TV show Flash to the discussion (not you, but many on the web). Before the flash premiered, I saw a lot of complaints about Gustin being the worst possible person for playing Barry (not looking the part..too young. Those were all the complaints I saw).

Right now, all I see is people saying how perfect Gustin's Barry is (and saying that Miller would never be able top that).

Anyways, we will see  :Big Grin:  Let's just wait!

----------


## FlashingSabre

> I agree.  I'm just debating whether people considered that movie part of the current Marvel cinematic universe or not... and whether people considered that movie a success.  I personally liked it.  Norton's work atmosphere contributed to him not being brought back.   It wasn't his onscreen performance.


Yeah, its in canon. I liked it too. O think its very underrated.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Well this is discouraging.  It sure sounds like I was informed correctly.  There was no official casting process for the Flash!  Batman gets a casting call.  WW gets a casting call.  Aquaman gets a casting call.  Snyder picks Miller without looking at anyone else.  My opinion on the casting aside, it is ridiculous that they didn't look to see who could fit the part best.  Yuck!

http://collider.com/ezra-miller-the-flash-movie/

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Anyways, the irony is how many people are bringing up TV show Flash to the discussion (not you, but many on the web). Before the flash premiered, I saw a lot of complaints about Gustin being the worst possible person for playing Barry (not looking the part..too young. Those were all the complaints I saw).
> 
> Right now, all I see is people saying how perfect Gustin's Barry is (and saying that Miller would never be able top that).
> 
> Anyways, we will see  Let's just wait!


What is ironic is that I know of a few people who were on the fence about Gustin as Barry.  After Miller was cast they were suddenly big time Gustin fans!

----------


## Triple J

> What is ironic is that I know of a few people who were on the fence about Gustin as Barry.  After Miller was cast they were suddenly big time Gustin fans!


Haha  :Big Grin:  People are so quick to change their opinions!

Anyways..for GL. What do you guys think about using an Alien GL?

The GL could mention Hal and Stewart (Hal as the leader of Corps and Stewart as a very well known Lantern).

The advantage is that they can disconnect the Lantern verse from Earth (granted it's already kind of disconnected..but there won't be any question of - where were the corps when so and so happened?).

They could do prequels - particularly, an adaptation of Sinestro Corps War.

Granted they could also do this with Kyle or Baz or Jessica (reimagined as a GL).

----------


## Triple J

Seems like we might get the trailer tonight!

Source: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=114687

----------


## Robotman

> Seems like we might get the trailer tonight!
> 
> Source: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=114687


I hope we get a look at the teaser trailer but I kind of doubt it. WB may use it to help Jupiter Ascending, a movie in which they've dumped a lot of money into. If the B v. S trailer can make the movie some extra cash I don't know if they'd be willing to give it away during the Super Bowl.

----------


## Triple J

> I hope we get a look at the teaser trailer but I kind of doubt it. WB may use it to help Jupiter Ascending, a movie in which they've dumped a lot of money into. If the B v. S trailer can make the movie some extra cash I don't know if they'd be willing to give it away during the Super Bowl.


I was thinking of that..but there seems to be a separate slot for Jupiter Ascending (not sure if it's airing today though. It is listed among the 'recent' spots list).

Here's the BvS page: http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7xV1/super-bo...-movie-trailer

Jupiter Ascending: http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7Etl/jupiter-...movie-trailer#

----------


## Triple J

A photo from the set - Any guesses on what this could be?  :Smile:

----------


## Triple J

Deadshot's Weapons?



Source: https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...558785/photo/1

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Deadshot's Weapons?
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...558785/photo/1


Death stroke maybe ?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Well... I suppose it is safe to say that those Batman v. Superman trailer rumors associated with Jupiter Ascending were complete BS.

----------


## Beantownbrown

That's too bad, I was really hoping it was true.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Well... I suppose it is safe to say that those Batman v. Superman trailer rumors associated with Jupiter Ascending were complete BS.


Given Jupiter Ascending seems to be getting panned across the board, that may be for the better.

----------


## Tandaemonium

So...I hope WB has another shoe ready to drop today. Gimme, gimme!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I think WB have done everything they can, unless they announce that BvS will be two parts. It's time to let the actual movies do the talking. If BvS gets a positive reaction then hopefully more people will see Suicide Squad and if that film is as awesome as it has potential then WB/DC don't have to worry about the audience not being with them, like with MoS (which was a success may I add) critics can kiss their ass lol.

----------


## Tandaemonium

I just want a trailer.  :Smile:

----------


## Triple J

> So...I hope WB has another shoe ready to drop today. Gimme, gimme!





> I think WB have done everything they can, unless they announce that BvS will be two parts. It's time to let the actual movies do the talking. If BvS gets a positive reaction then hopefully more people will see Suicide Squad and if that film is as awesome as it has potential then WB/DC don't have to worry about the audience not being with them, like with MoS (which was a success may I add) critics can kiss their ass lol.


Well, there are a few folks who still believe that we are going to get something (possibly, a teaser) this month (no evidence of course, it's all speculation/rumors).

Ah, I don't want them to do anything today...why react like that anyways? A lot of people still believe everything DC/WB does is a reaction to what Marvel does.

----------


## Hawkman

> I just want a trailer.


We all do.

But I'm not all that excited about the Spider-Man announcement from Marvel, anyway.  I understand why everyone else is, but it's not something that I personally feel WB need to hit back against.

----------


## Custodes

> We all do.
> 
> But I'm not all that excited about the Spider-Man announcement from Marvel, anyway.  I understand why everyone else is, but it's not something that I personally feel WB need to hit back against.


It does not change any DC interest.

----------


## Abishai100

Jeevanjacobjohn,

Are the films listed in the WB/DC Cinema Slate on your thread header pretty much set in stone?

It seems that knowing this much about the scheduling of comic book films narrows the discussion down to how to imagine storyboards for concepts already cast (it seems at least 5-6 years in the future).

The upcoming variegation of films about the Flash and Aquaman, compel me to imagine offbeat storylines for at least comic book writers and critics.



------

For example:

"Bruce Wayne tackles the egomaniacal challenges of Lex Luthor Industries which is actually fronting for the coordinated schemes of various members of the Legion of Doom (Toyman, Riddler, Lex, Posion Ivy, and Brainiac).  Wayne has to balance capitalist acumen with the street-watching vigilante skills of the Dark Knight."

------



In order for this explosion of comic book movies to truly feel like a new age film-theme trend comparable to Phantom of the Opera or Cyrano de Bergerac, we need to feel like there are ample storylines about 'dominion experimentation,' no?





 :EEK!:

----------


## Triple J

> Jeevanjacobjohn,
> 
> Are the films listed in the WB/DC Cinema Slate on your thread header pretty much set in stone?
> 
> It seems that knowing this much about the scheduling of comic book films narrows the discussion down to how to imagine storyboards for concepts already cast (it seems at least 5-6 years in the future).
> 
> The upcoming variegation of films about the Flash and Aquaman, compel me to imagine offbeat storylines for at least comic book writers and critics.
> 
> 
> ...


Of course, not. But, this is the plan for now (at least that we know of!).

Things can change however (I hope not...well, if they do change, I hope it's for the better - like more films, particularly offbeat ones focusing on other aspects of the DC universe).

Well, there are 70+ years of history and story from which they can choose (Of course, the best stories published by DC are often Elseworlds titles, re-imaginings of the  'main' versions of each character). DC seems to be embracing the concept on multiversity; I hope they can bring it to the big screen (Some of the work has already been done, primarily in the various TV universes).

Of course, bringing such a big concept (Crisis of Infinite Earths) to the big screen is another story. Perhaps they can do multiple versions with films and then do a Crisis with those universes (which I think would be easier).

I also hope that these movies aren't all about action - many of the recent CBMs were just mostly action (although a few recent ones, like Winter Soldier and DOFP were considerably better than the others). But, in any case, none of these movies even come close to the best stories in comics.

As for mainstream critics - I am not particularly sure if they are suited to judging comic book movies (since I believe a knowledge of the stories, and the character is necessary to accurately judge the movie). Or maybe not.

If critics were hard core fans..well, then they might have a problem with a different depiction of their favorites character on screen (since many of the character depicted on screen are a lot different than their comic book counterparts).

A slew of Vertigo films (and a couple of Image projects) are also under way - if those become successful, then they might just encourage the whole industry to adapt better story lines and make better movies (not that the current movies are all that bad!).

----------


## upgrayedd

> I just want a trailer.


 I'll stick with my house.

----------


## Black_Adam

Smith and Robbie talk a bit about Suicide Squad and Hardy leaving the project, not much insight but looks like Smith has been working out a lot for the role (since before Christmas).

http://batman-news.com/2015/02/10/wi...ardy-dropping/





> I just want a trailer.


The wait is killing me, I actually had a dream that I saw the trailer last week lol. Now they are saying possibly in May ugh.

----------


## Starchild

I wish WB would grow a pair and release something...anything. My interest in this film is slowly declining.

----------


## Triple J

> I think Black Adam is going to grow into becoming an anti-hero,” Johnson said. “It’s all written within the spirit of respecting and paying homage to the comics. As we know, Black Adam started out as a slave. When he’s given the powers, he utilised them. Then in the wake of his powers, tragedy strikes, which turns his sentiment and tone in terms of psychology.
> 
> It was all agreed that the worlds are all interconnected… One day you will see Black Adam go at it with Superman or Batman or any of the DC characters. But that said, there’s a great independence to Black Adam from the DC world, allowing us to inject, not only viciousness, but also winking humour.


Dwayne Johnson on Black Adam - http://www.superherohype.com/news/32...dc-connections

----------


## golgi

> I wish WB would grow a pair and release something...anything. My interest in this film is slowly declining.


WB doesn't need to grow anything. The movie is still more than a year away. It's too early for a full blown trailer. If you want something to watch, look at the comic con teaser from last year. That snippet blew most people away.

----------


## Starchild

> WB doesn't need to grow anything. The movie is still more than a year away. It's too early for a full blown trailer. If you want something to watch, look at the comic con teaser from last year. That snippet blew most people away.


The hype is slowly dying though. I'm just speaking for me. It doesn't have to be a trailer, it could be another teaser or something else. Idk.

----------


## golgi

> The hype is slowly dying though. I'm just speaking for me. It doesn't have to be a trailer, it could be another teaser or something else. Idk.


Not really. The marketing for the movie doesn't rev up until 3-4 months before, anyway. That's where they'll draw the crowd. We'll get a teaser soon, though. Like MOS got one a year before.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/...xternal,manual

Thoughts on potential casting for Hal Jordan? Looks the part.

----------


## Robotman

> http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/...xternal,manual
> 
> Thoughts on potential casting for Hal Jordan? Looks the part.


The guy definitely looks the part. Would be cool to at least get a hint that he's Hal like the article suggests.

----------


## colonyofcells

Hal Jordan starting out as a drone pilot sounds right to me.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/...xternal,manual
> 
> Thoughts on potential casting for Hal Jordan? Looks the part.


Ah yeah, I saw this earlier, was wondering whether it was credible enough to be worth posting. Sceptical, think he's just an extra, and suspect it's based mainly on the guy just looking like Hal. Could also be Steve Trevor too, but you wouldn't expect them to keep that a secret.

----------


## Triple J

> http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/...xternal,manual
> 
> Thoughts on potential casting for Hal Jordan? Looks the part.





> Ah yeah, I saw this earlier, was wondering whether it was credible enough to be worth posting. Sceptical, think he's just an extra, and suspect it's based mainly on the guy just looking like Hal. Could also be Steve Trevor too, but you wouldn't expect them to keep that a secret.


Yeah, could be Trevor. Or could be just another extra.

----------


## The Kid

I'm still a little disappointed with their choice for Barry Allen. Miller's a good actor but I just feel off about it

----------


## Robotman

> I'm still a little disappointed with their choice for Barry Allen. Miller's a good actor but I just feel off about it


With the success of the Flash tv show I think they're going to stick with the more Peter Parker-like version of Barry that Grant Gustin has done so well. The younger socially awkward nerd who gains confidence and a witty sense of humor when he dons his costume. Barry Allen has never had much of a district personality but they have really found something that works for the character. 
Maybe they'll make Miller's Flash more of a wild card as he'll be one of the youngest members of this version of the League. The wise cracking free spirit persona fits well with the speedsters, as JLU Wally West and Days of Future Past Qucksilver have proven.

----------


## Black_Adam

I think Miller will crush it, no disrespect to Gustin he's great on the show, but Miller is one of hollywood's hottest young prospects, he definitely has the charisma and talent to play Barry.

It is interesting though that he will be one of the youngest JL members along except for Cyborg. I'm thinking Batman, Superman, WW and Aquaman will probably be the seniors of the group while Cyborg, Flash and possibly Shazam will be the young guns, which I'm fine with.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Do we even know which incarnation of the Flash Miller is playing?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think Miller will crush it, no disrespect to Gustin he's great on the show, but Miller is one of hollywood's hottest young prospects, he definitely has the charisma and talent to play Barry.


I wonder if they will attempt to dye his hair blonde and give him tanner like they did to Zachary Levi in Thor:  The Dark World?

----------


## GrandKaiser

I mean, how do we know that DC Comics won't introduce a new Flash at the end of the year that looks just like Miller? As far as I know no one has confirmed which Flash he is playing.

----------


## FishboneX

> I mean, how do we know that DC Comics won't introduce a new Flash at the end of the year that looks just like Miller? As far as I know no one has confirmed which Flash he is playing.


This isn't a Green Lantern level question. In the comics, there is only Barry Allen for years now (on Earth 1). The hit TV show is Barry Allen. I don't think there is any chance that they choose to make the movie Flash Wally West.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This isn't a Green Lantern level question. In the comics, there is only Barry Allen for years now (on Earth 1). The hit TV show is Barry Allen. I don't think there is any chance that they choose to make the movie Flash Wally West.


Agreed. It's going to be Barry.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This isn't a Green Lantern level question. In the comics, there is only Barry Allen for years now (on Earth 1). The hit TV show is Barry Allen. I don't think there is any chance that they choose to make the movie Flash Wally West.


There is the most minute of chances but I highly doubt it.  I think there is more of a chance of there being multiple GLs in Justice League Part 1.  While possible it isn't likely either.

----------


## DebkoX

Yeah. Barry. Wally probably older.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/...xternal,manual
> 
> Thoughts on potential casting for Hal Jordan? Looks the part.


Probably Steve Trevor. He instagram'd a phone call with Time Warner with the caption "Give me strength". That's a Wonder Woman reference. He's definitely not Hal Jordan.




> This isn't a Green Lantern level question. In the comics, there is only Barry Allen for years now (on Earth 1). The hit TV show is Barry Allen. I don't think there is any chance that they choose to make the movie Flash Wally West.


Yeah, you're probably right, but there is still no confirmation. From what I've seen the general movie goer doesn't know the Flash's real name, they just know the Flash. Same thing with Green Lantern and other characters. They're not "Peter Parker" or "Bruce Wayne" level. The superhero identities are always more popular than the civilian identities.

----------


## FishboneX

> Yeah, you're probably right, but there is still no confirmation. From what I've seen the general movie goer doesn't know the Flash's real name, they just know the Flash. Same thing with Green Lantern and other characters. They're not "Peter Parker" or "Bruce Wayne" level. The superhero identities are always more popular than the civilian identities.


I agree with this, which is even more reason not to confuse the people who are only now learning who he is on the TV show. We would know why there are 2, but a person who watches the show, or watches just Arrow, will be really confused. The general public who have never read the comic  nor watched the TV show will be fine.... unless the movie succeeds in driving them to either of their other Flash-based products. These people will be confused in reverse (Reverse-Flash confusion), they will wonder who Barry Allen is.

----------


## Robotman

> There is the most minute of chances but I highly doubt it.  I think there is more of a chance of there being multiple GLs in Justice League Part 1.  While possible it isn't likely either.


I think it would be a good idea to use both Hal and John Stewart in the Green Lantern movie. Prevent a civil war between GL fans and allow them to emphasis the Corps. team aspect of the GL concept.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think it would be a good idea to use both Hal and John Stewart in the Green Lantern movie. Prevent a civil war between GL fans and allow them to emphasis the Corps. team aspect of the GL concept.


I think that solution would be fine for the vast majority of us, but the extremists in both camps don't want any competition. They just want their guy and nobody else.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think it would be a good idea to use both Hal and John Stewart in the Green Lantern movie. Prevent a civil war between GL fans and allow them to emphasis the Corps. team aspect of the GL concept.


It would be a good idea if properly executed but Rayner fans would lose their minds!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I agree with this, which is even more reason not to confuse the people who are only now learning who he is on the TV show. We would know why there are 2, but a person who watches the show, or watches just Arrow, will be really confused. The general public who have never read the comic  nor watched the TV show will be fine....


Exactly!  It is a business decision that deals with branding and name recognition.  At least as much as they can get...

----------


## liwanag

> It would be a good idea if properly executed but Rayner fans would lose their minds!


Let's not forget, Guy does have a decent following as well.

----------


## Black_Adam

Latest rumour on Rick Flag is the guy from the Robocop reboot.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...replace-773196

Not bad at all. At this stage I think it is going to be very hard to find an A-lister to replace Hardy with such little time, Flag doesn't have to be played by a massive name.




> I think it would be a good idea to use both Hal and John Stewart in the Green Lantern movie. Prevent a civil war between GL fans and allow them to emphasis the Corps. team aspect of the GL concept.


Wouldn't mind seeing a GL movie about John Stewart joining the Corps with Hal already a member and helping to train him, Hal explains he was Earth's GL but got too caught up in intergalactic conflicts so Stewart is chosen as Earth's new GL, John then joins the Justice League while Hal continues his adventures in outer space, best of both worlds.

----------


## Triple J

Arrow Showrunner on Diggle as GL:




> “It’s funny, I’ve spoken to David quite a bit about this issue, I know it keeps coming up,” Guggenheim told MTV News over the phone. “I spoke to [writer] Geoff Johns at DC after that interview went viral. Basically, John Diggle is now a character in the comics… John Diggle is John Diggle. We’re not being coy and saying John Diggle is someone else, i.e. John Stewart. *DC has other plans for that character*. We love David, and we love the character of John Diggle that he’s created. We have really cool plans for him… they involve a wedding ring, but they don’t involve a power ring.”


Interesting, so we are going to get Stewart. I wonder if he is going to be introduced in JL or in the Lantern film (hopefully films)?

Source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2078308/arro...rc-guggenheim/

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Arrow Showrunner on Diggle as GL:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, so we are going to get Stewart. I wonder if he is going to be introduced in JL or in the Lantern film (hopefully films)?
> 
> Source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2078308/arro...rc-guggenheim/


He might be being groomed solely for television, too. At any rate, it looks like a live-action John might very well be in the cards.

----------


## colonyofcells

Probably possible to do a tv GL corps like star trek.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Probably possible to do a tv GL corps like star trek.


That would be awesome if feasible.

----------


## ekrolo2

> That would be awesome if feasible.


GL is not feasible in the least on TV. Even on the cable networks it would eat through any budget.

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe it won't cost a lot of money if you put GLs in a cheap room and pretend that it is a space ship. The cartoon GL did use a space ship.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Maybe it won't cost a lot of money if you put GLs in a cheap room and pretend that it is a space ship. The cartoon GL did use a space ship.


Space ships is far from GL's tv problems.

----------


## colonyofcells

Instead of expensive energy constructs, maybe just set the power rings to stun most of the time to save money.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Instead of expensive energy constructs, maybe just set the power rings to stun most of the time to save money.


There would have to be some constructs or it would be too derivative.

----------


## Robotman

> Instead of expensive energy constructs, maybe just set the power rings to stun most of the time to save money.


Plus the alien monster could always be just off screen.  :Wink: 

"The monster is right over there behind that tree! Let's shoot our single stun beam at it! Then walk over to it"

----------


## Rogue Star

> Plus the alien monster could always be just off screen. 
> 
> "The monster is right over there behind that tree! Let's shoot our single stun beam at it! Then walk over to it"


LOL (plus 10 characters)  xD

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> Maybe it won't cost a lot of money if you put GLs in a cheap room and pretend that it is a space ship. The cartoon GL did use a space ship.


What's the point of doing GL if you're limiting their storytelling possibilities? You either have to go all the way with the GLC or don't do it at all.

----------


## Triple J

Cara Delevingne visiting a psychiatrist (to prepare) for her role in SS?





> We’re told: Cara’s character has a split personality so the role is a real challenge for her.
> 
> She’s dedicated to doing her research for the movie and has been seeing her psychotherapist every day. Her character is very dark so she has a lot to learn about the way to act. To her, it’s hilarious because in real life she’s really cheery and laid-back, so she is struggling with the idea of playing a character so opposite. But playing a tricky role couldn’t put the trend-setter off taking the part.According to friends, Cara thinks it will change her life. She’s been a fan of his [Ayer] for a long time. She thinks this movie will be a huge step forward for her in her career. And working alongside Will Smith and Jared Leto is a dream come true.


Source: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/g...-schizophrenic


EDIT: Cara confirmed that the report is false [On Twitter]:




> Also, I am not seeing a shrink btw


https://twitter.com/Caradelevingne/s...79206511054848

----------


## DC>Marvel

havent seen any of these threads around lately, thought I would start one. This is the place to start all your discussion and talk about the any media involving DC Comics and its Cinematic Universe. :Cool:

----------


## Triple J

*Leto on Playing Joker*




> Playing the Joker onscreen means stepping into some big shoes left by Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger. So how is Jared Leto preparing for his role as the iconic Batman villain in Suicide Squad? By getting bigger.
> 
> "Do you mind if I eat a little?" Jared Leto asks Billboard during an interview for our new cover story, out Friday, Feb. 20. "I'm trying to gain a lot of weight. It means I have to eat every couple of hours -- and I'm terrible at eating a lot." (Case in point: Leto was eating vegan tacos during the interview, which are hardly the fattiest food on the market.
> 
> "The opportunity to take on this nearly Shakespearean character -- that's what graphic novels and comic books are becoming, right?" Leto says. "[He's] this beautiful disaster of a character -- what a big challenge."


Source: http://www.billboard.com/articles/ne...-suicide-squad

----------


## Triple J

We are getting more information regarding SS (officially that is) than we ever got for BvS.

----------


## Triple J

*Will Smith on Playing Deadshot*




Source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2083643/will...=share_twitter

----------


## The Kid

> *Will Smith on Playing Deadshot*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2083643/will...=share_twitter


Man Harley Quinn is gonna be the hottest chick in the DC Cinematic Universe

----------


## Lightning Rider

Cool, I'll begin:


Fuck the CW.

----------


## Mister Ferro

Zack Snyder just tweeted out:

There is only one true King. #Unitetheseven

----------


## Robotman

Holy sh!t that's freaking awesome!!!

----------


## Frontier

Aquaman  :EEK!:  :Big Grin: !!!

----------


## Marvel_Is

Ugh, that's not Aquaman.

----------


## golgi

I LOVE it!

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

Wow. Awesome.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

Holy Crap!!
That's awesome!!
It's Aquaman meets Conan!  I love it!!

----------


## Luck911

I like the South Pacific/Islander/Samoan Warrior vibe of that Aquaman.It is really good fit for the character.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Ugh, that's not Aquaman.


Sigh, was hoping to make it in before the first butthurt Marvel fan who thinks he knows who Aquaman is.

----------


## The True Detective

Looks really cool even like the blond streaks in his hair.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Holy crap!

He looks AWESOME! 

I'm not usually a fan of the bearded look, but Mr. Momoa is totally rocking it!

Long live the King!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Marvel_Is

> Sigh, was hoping to make it in before the first butthurt Marvel fan who thinks he knows who Aquaman is.


Aquaman is my favorite DC character. He doesn't look like Aquaman. He looks like a Masters of the Universe character. If it makes you feel any better, I've been a Hulk fan longer than I've been a fan of Aquaman, and I dislike Mark Ruffahulk. Looks are important to me. Mamoa isn't Aquaman to me.

----------


## Tandaemonium



----------


## Luck911

> Aquaman is my favorite DC character. He doesn't look like Aquaman. He looks like a Masters of the Universe character. If it makes you feel any better, I've been a Hulk fan longer than I've been a fan of Aquaman, and I dislike Mark Ruffahulk. Looks are important to me. Mamoa isn't Aquaman to me.


I don't understand how in this era with use of alternate universe comics fans get caught up in one look for a character.To each their own i guess

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Aquaman is my favorite DC character.


Uh huh.

Right.

----------


## Marvel_Is

-_-. _Not_ helping, _Tandaemonium_.

----------


## Marvel_Is

> I don't understand how in this era with use of alternate universe comics fans get caught up in one look for a character.To each their own i guess


Some people aren't fans of alternate looks, believe it or not.

----------


## Guy1

> Zack Snyder just tweeted out:
> 
> There is only one true King. #Unitetheseven


Badass. Totally sold.

----------


## Marvel_Is

> Uh huh.
> 
> Right.


Who the hell comments on Aquaman unless they actually like the character? lol. I wouldn't have responded otherwise.

----------


## Luck911

> Some people aren't fans of alternate looks, believe it or not.


Like i said to each their own but when someone "goes that is not Aquaman " i am like don't you see army  of different version characters running around, i don't get why anyone thinks there is an definitive version or look of any character. The world of comics is change

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Some people aren't fans of alternate looks, believe it or not.


Yeah, because Aquaman's never had long hair and a beard before.

Jeezus.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Who the hell comments on Aquaman unless they actually like the character?


I dunno, trolls?

----------


## Marvel_Is

> Like i said to each their own but when someone "goes that is not Aquaman " i am like don't you see army  of different version characters running around, i don't get why anyone thinks there is an definitive version or look of any character. The world of comics is change


I'm more used to the Marvel Universe than I am to DC's. So, I don't really accept alternate versions of characters as readily as the DC faithful.

----------


## Marvel_Is

> Yeah, because Aquaman's never had long hair and a beard before.
> 
> Jeezus.


But, he doesn't even look like _him_.

----------


## Marvel_Is

Because I made a trolling comment somewhere...?

----------


## Vic Vega

Aquaman was without the Mail Shirt all thruout the 90's in the comics and the DCAU.

Momoa's gone Blond before but you can't ask a dude to dye his beard completely.

This is a fair compromise: 90's Arthur/Orin with Blond streaks wielding the nu52's version's trident.

----------


## Doctor Know

Mamoa looks great. The lord of the seven seas he is.

----------


## Robotman

I think Mamoa looks great I just hope the beard doesn't come back in the comics.

----------


## Tandaemonium

> Some people aren't fans of alternate looks, believe it or not.


Like white Jesus?




> I'm more used to the Marvel Universe than I am to DC's. So, I don't really accept alternate versions of characters as readily as the DC faithful.


Grey Hulk
Small-eyed Spider-Man
Symbiote Spider-Man
Spider-Pig
Iron Spider-Man
Scarlet Spider
Ultimate Spider-Man
Superior Spider-Man
Spider-Gwen
Tiny small-eared Wolverine
The 1000 Captain Marvels
The 1000 Fantastic Four outfits
Spider-Woman
Teen Iron Man/Iron Lad
Waspy British Psylocke
Ape Beast
Cat Beast
Blue Beast
Nick Fury
Original Human Torch

----------


## Cinnamon

Momoa looks pretty badass. It seems DC is trying very very hard to be grim and edgy. 
Well, at least I'm glad he isn't dressed in Orange and Green. That would have looked ridiculous. 

Still the look doesn't scream "AQUAMAN". Guess I'll have to wait and see how it translates to the big screen.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

That look is TRÈS Peter David Aquaman, but based on the picture Momoa rocks it better than most of the comics ever did, and mops the floor with the DCAU-version. His beard and hair gives him a kind of regal ancient legend look, like some iteration of Poseidon or Neptune. Also, casting Aquaman with a Hawaiian-America actor is pretty damn inspired.

----------


## Black_Adam

aquaman90s.jpg

Definitely more inspired by his 90's design. I thought they would go with something like this but I'm still pleasantly surprised by how cool it looks actually seeing it all come together. Wish we got a full body shot so we could see his legs, that filter makes it hard but the pants look green and I would like to see what footwear the King of Atlantis is rocking!  :Cool:

----------


## Hatestorm

In a world where blonde and red haired males are portrayed almost exclusively as bad guys, comics were the last place where you could see many blonde haired and a smattering of red haired male characters who weren't evil, unlikeable and utterly detestable.

It's a great costume design, but it's also an expected shame that they didn't even consider keeping Aquaman blonde.

----------


## Triple J

That looks awesome  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jabare

I think Momoa looks great. As for the debate of live action versus comic incarnation. No live action version has ever looked like the comic version. They share some similarities but ultimately they look different than the first incarnations of comic characters.




> In a world where blonde and red haired males are portrayed almost exclusively as bad guys,


this isn't true and I'm not sure where your getting it from

----------


## Doctor Know

The body tats correspond to Jason Mamoa's heritage. In Polynesian tattoo designs, shark teeth usually represents shelter or coverage, guidance, power, ferocity and adaptability.

http://www.apolynesiantattoo.com/pol...ark-teeth.html

I think it's cool that they are making changes to the character to reflect the actor. Creativity at it's finest.

----------


## ABH

I thought they would give him a few light/blond streaks in his hair, and it looks like they did.

It looks good to me and I actually don't get the complaints on this. When they cast "Khal Drogo" Momoa, it seemed pretty obvious to me, that this Aquaman was going to be more PAD style, than classic. 




> The body tats correspond to Jason Mamoa's heritage. In Polynesian tattoo designs, shark teeth usually represents shelter or coverage, guidance, power, ferocity and adaptability.
> 
> http://www.apolynesiantattoo.com/pol...ark-teeth.html
> 
> I think it's cool that they are making changes to the character to reflect the actor. Creativity at it's finest.


Yeah, I really like that bit.

It seems pretty clear to me that WB looked at the JL, and noticed a problem -- they were an all Anglo team (+one green guy). So, they decided to remedy this a bit, with casting Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, Jason Mamoa as Aquaman, and brought in Cyborg (Ray Fisher) to be part of the cinematic JL. I do feel bad for individual fans, that may not be getting their dream version of their fav characters, but I think this League will look great together on screen.

I'm hoping the John Stewart GL rumor is also true.

----------


## AcesX1X

so how exactly is Disney not calling the police on WB at this point?  because that image is a straight up rip-off of jae lee's sub-mariner comic from the early 90s.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

cause Disney probably don't care much about characters whose movie rights they don't own.

----------


## FishboneX

> so how exactly is Disney not calling the police on WB at this point?  because that image is a straight up rip-off of jae lee's sub-mariner comic from the early 90s.


Hmmm... wasn't aware that dark hair was now an item you could fire up a cease-and-desist over.

----------


## ABH

Also, "calling the police on WB" lol. A Lawyer might be more effective... but not in this case.

----------


## FishboneX

Ha, right, I totally missed that he suggested calling the cops on WB!

----------


## AcesX1X

this have to be considered copyright infringement?  i hope someone at disney or universal studio notify the authorities

----------


## ABH

If Momoa Aquaman has wings on his ankles, then you might have a case. Somehow, I don't think this is going to be an issue.

----------


## JaggedFel

Yeah not enough for a lawsuit. Besides Momoa pretty much always as his hair like that.

----------


## FishboneX

> this have to be considered copyright infringement?  I hope someone at disney or universal studio notify the authorities


somebody call the cops!!  He has dark hair, too!

----------


## Kid A

Call 911!  WB can't get away with this!

----------


## AcesX1X

THIS IS AN EMERGENCY.  there is a crime in progress!

----------


## Rogue Star

> this have to be considered copyright infringement?  i hope someone at disney or universal studio notify the authorities


They don't look all that similar actually.  I don't expect to see this guy on the big screen any time soon anyway. 

So, how come this thread isn't in the TV/Film subforum?

----------


## FishboneX

BEE-OO BEE-OO BEE-OO!!!  Whats all this I hear about giving Aquaman dark hair?!?

----------


## M L A

> BEE-OO BEE-OO BEE-OO!!!  Whats all this I hear about giving Aquaman dark hair?!?


Momoa would probably look terrible with lighter hair anyway.

----------


## colonyofcells

Submariner was created before Aquaman and Aquaman has been copying from Submariner since the golden age. Dc should probably just reboot Aquaman to be more god like Poseidon to be more different from Submariner. Dc's icons are closer to the greek gods Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Hermes except for Batman who was inspired by the pulps. GL is from aladdin.

----------


## Punisher007

Come on, someone go up to him and make a "you only talk to fish joke" to him, I dare you.  Anyone, anyone at all   :Wink:

----------


## Triple J

Unite the Seven.

This could mean seven seas...or the 7 leaguers (founding members).

Here is my theory: They are adapting ToA story line for JL - Atlantis attacks, and the League forms to neutralize the threat.

They could have Aquaman as the protagonist - League fights against Orm and Atlantean army (Unlike in the animated feature..he is already a hero. Unknown, just in rumors. Calls for other meta humans when he hears of Orm attacking the surface world).

Or they could have him as the antagonist, in which case, they can have another person as the founding member of the League (7 member team, I would recommend adding another female character, preferably Zatanna).

----------


## Tandaemonium

> Submariner was created before Aquaman and Aquaman has been copying from Submariner since the golden age. Dc should probably just reboot Aquaman to be more god like Poseidon to be more different from Submariner. Dc's icons are closer to the greek gods Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Hermes except for Batman who was inspired by the pulps. GL is from aladdin.


I wish we could go back to that with GL...it would translate far better than main feature space cops and 60s nostalgia to a general audience. GotG completely bslapped WB with their cinematic portrayal of the Nova Corps done right and easing the audience into it.

----------


## Rogue Star

One benefit of not being the first to do something is the opportunity to learn from other's mistakes.

----------


## Pinsir

> I wish we could go back to that with GL...it would translate far better than main feature space cops and 60s nostalgia to a general audience. GotG completely bslapped WB with their cinematic portrayal of the Nova Corps done right and easing the audience into it.


Oh, god the "We did it better argument therefore you can't do it!" The Nova 'corps' in the movie looks nothing like GL, they look more like the Galactic Republic.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Submariner was created before Aquaman and Aquaman has been copying from Submariner since the golden age. Dc should probably just reboot Aquaman to be more god like Poseidon to be more different from Submariner. Dc's icons are closer to the greek gods Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Hermes except for Batman who was inspired by the pulps. GL is from aladdin.


Wow this is the kinda of BS I think that was stated so often until it actually becomes believeable, if Aquaman has been copying Namor since the Golden Age how comes it was Aquaman that was first established as King of Altantis only to be followed by Namor years later??

----------


## TheObsessor

Jason Mamoa is honestly the first good thing I've seen for the DCU. Looking forward to him, not so much the rest.

----------


## Tandaemonium

> Oh, god the "We did it better argument therefore you can't do it!" The Nova 'corps' in the movie looks nothing like GL, they look more like the Galactic Republic.


I didn't say they did it better. I said they did it right implying WB did it incorrectly with the Green Lantern movie. But hey, it's okay if you disagree and love that POS movie that threw every alien/mythos/exposition/concept/bad writing at a cynical general audience that needed their hands held going in.

Yeah, the Nova Corps didn't look anything like the GLC in GL. We agree there. It's because only one of them was capable of humanizing the characters to the audience. What an A-hole.

----------


## AcesX1X

> Wow this is the kinda of BS I think that was stated so often until it actually becomes believeable, if Aquaman has been copying Namor since the Golden Age how comes it was Aquaman that was first established as King of Altantis only to be followed by Namor years later??


peter david was so obsessed with jae lee and john byrne's Namor that he turned aqua into a direct copy of him in the 90s.  it's a huge honor for sub-mariner but this is STIlLL CRIMINAL.  this will essentially be a secret namor film using WB to foot the bill.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> peter david was so obsessed with jae lee and john byrne's Namor that he turned aqua into a direct copy of him in the 90s.  it's a huge honor for sub-mariner but this is STIlLL CRIMINAL.  this will essentially be a secret namor film using WB to foot the bill.


LOL you say this is criminal then immediately say Batman v Superman is secretly a namor film. Paha please try harder.

----------


## AcesX1X

> LOL you say this is criminal then immediately say Batman v Superman is secretly a namor film. Paha please try harder.


it is criminal and jason mania should be ashamed to be participating in this sort of thievery.

----------


## Tandaemonium

> peter david was so obsessed with jae lee and john byrne's Namor that he turned aqua into a direct copy of him in the 90s.  it's a huge honor for sub-mariner but this is STIlLL CRIMINAL.  this will essentially be a secret namor film using WB to foot the bill.


I can't think of two more opposite writers. I miss the PAD vs Byrne wars. 

Fun excerpt:

*Posted by: Peter David at May 31, 2006 07:29 AM
"Not that I'm coming to Byrne's defense or anything like that, but it is possible he intended at some point to restore things to the status quo had he stayed on the books for any length of time. Or not. Just speculating."

It's entirely possible. But he quits the work and leaves it behind. I, on the other hand, see the work through and, by the end of the run (in Hulk, which is what triggered the discussion) the status quo had been restored...restored, in fact, to what the Hulk was BEFORE BYRNE'S RUN. So basically I did what he failed to do...and he continues to bitch about me.

"I still feel of the two, Byrne tries harder to keep the basic parts of what makes a character great than PAD but I'm willing to concede that my taste may just lean more towards Byrne than PAD."

I appreciate the admission since the reality of our respective track records doesn't match up with your perception. Hulk? At no time during my run of Hulk did I ever deemphasize or eliminate the emotional struggle of a man trying to deal with his inner demons. Even as the merged Hulk, the conflict was still there--just internalized rather than externalized. John elimianted that struggle IMMEDIATELY. Spider-Man? Any "changes" made to Spider-Man (such as the stinger) were made by other writers. X-Factor? Aside from giving Multiple Man's multiples some additional personality, no changes there. Aquaman? You'll appreciate this: I had an entire storyline planned that would "kill" Aquaman off, let people think he was dead, then bring him and eventually restore him to two-handedness and much of his original appearance (personally I never liked the semi-armored, bare-chested costume; I objected strenuously but was overruled by the editor). The storyline was rejected, I left the title, and eventually DC did the storyline I proposed--with some changes, but similarities as well. I seem to recall John claiming that he departed Hulk and his proposed storylines were supposedly then appropriated. True? Yet in the world of John, his stories are pure and mine are tainted.

"I was lucky enough to spend time with JB and I never met a more kind and caring individual. Maybe that colors my judgement, Who knows."

Believe me when I say...lots of people know.

PAD*

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> peter david was so obsessed with jae lee and john byrne's Namor that he turned aqua into a direct copy of him in the 90s.  it's a huge honor for sub-mariner but this is STIlLL CRIMINAL.  this will essentially be a secret namor film using WB to foot the bill.


If this was such cut-and-dry thievery, then Marvel would have sued DC and won the lawsuit a long time ago. That they didn't sue DC, however, suggests to me that Marvel either had no problem with it or rightly realized they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on, anyway.

----------


## AcesX1X

> If this was such cut-and-dry thievery, then Marvel would have sued DC and won the lawsuit a long time ago. That they didn't sue DC, however, suggests to me that Marvel either had no problem with it or rightly realized they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on, anyway.


i hope they called their lawyers first thing this morning!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> i hope they called their lawyers first thing this morning!


I was talking about the '90s Aquaman, but I'm pretty sure DC management won't lose any sleep over this, either.

----------


## FishboneX

> peter david was so obsessed with jae lee and john byrne's Namor that he turned aqua into a direct copy of him in the 90s.  it's a huge honor for sub-mariner but this is STIlLL CRIMINAL.  this will essentially be a secret namor film using WB to foot the bill.


Still unaware of what is and isn't a criminal act, clearly.

----------


## FishboneX

> i hope they called their lawyers first thing this morning!


You mean the police, right?

----------


## AcesX1X

> You mean the police, right?


YES the police!

----------


## colonyofcells

Here are some golden age ideas for dc to copy but don't do the amazons attack :
http://www.marvelmasterworks.com/ga/...ub_gamc01b.jpg
For fans of throne of atlantis, this might look familiar :
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...al_Vol_1_5.jpg

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> YES the police!


Okay, this discussion is starting to get really ridiculous, so let's end it right now, shall we?

----------


## FishboneX

> Okay, this discussion is starting to get really ridiculous, so let's end it right now, shall we?


I am ending my participation in it.

----------


## Trident

Aquaman has been channeling Namor for years. DC. Just has been better at putting him in the spotlight to get better brand recognition. This version of Aquaman is a pretty clear rip off of Namor but in saying that ....it is the first time/thing that has me interested in the DC films. 

So continue forth DC in taking other companies ideas to make your characters more interesting.

----------


## FishboneX

Marvel's multiverse falling into a crisis in which heroes battle to save as many universes as possible from being wiped out of existence, is that an original Marvel idea too?

----------


## colonyofcells

Aquaman fortunately has no secret identity altho the movie Superman did not bother to fix the dumb disguise problem of Clark Kent and dc seems to be just relying on people accepting the fantasy elements like those sailor moon dumb disguises.

----------


## Hatestorm

> this isn't true and I'm not sure where your getting it from


Just the last 30 years or so of cinema and television.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Marvel's multiverse falling into a crisis in which heroes battle to save as many universes as possible from being wiped out of existence, is that an original Marvel idea too?


You don't even need to mention that you could just mention the obvious Darkseid ripoff which Marvel is trying to push in movies

----------


## Pinsir

> Aquaman has been channeling Namor for years. DC. Just has been better at putting him in the spotlight to get better brand recognition. This version of Aquaman is a pretty clear rip off of Namor but in saying that ....it is the first time/thing that has me interested in the DC films. 
> 
> So continue forth DC in taking other companies ideas to make your characters more interesting.


Jesus, what? Are you seriously saying that because you saw an image you know how the character will behave? We know nothing about this character or movie besides this image and you are already declaring it a rip-off?

Even if they are similar that doesn't make it a rip off and no just because Aquaman was created after Namor means he was a rip-off either.

----------


## matthew

That image looks absolutely terrible. Why do our superheroes have to look like serial killers?

----------


## colonyofcells

In the movies, all the dc heroes maybe will need to kill every now and then to be more realistic. Maybe Wonder Woman might even refuse to shave.

----------


## Pinsir

> In the movies, all the dc heroes maybe will need to kill every now and then to be more realistic. Maybe Wonder Woman might even refuse to shave.


As opposed to the Marvel 'heroes'?

----------


## Baba3231

> Aquaman has been channeling Namor for years. DC. Just has been better at putting him in the spotlight to get better brand recognition. This version of* Aquaman is a pretty clear rip off of Namor* but in saying that ....it is the first time/thing that has me interested in the DC films. 
> 
> *So continue forth DC in taking other companies ideas to make your characters more interesting*.


Are you serious? Marvel has always been far more guilty of this.
Dc has The Flash, so Marvel create Quicksilver.
Superman to Hyperion and The Sentry.
Batman fights evil with money and Alfred's help? Well, Ironman does it with money and Jarvis. Moon-Knight is a Batman parody.
Slade Wilson to Wade Wilson.
Doom Patrol ripped off by X-Men.
They liked Darkseid so much they ripped him off twice with Thanos and Apocalypse.
I suppose you think Hawkeye predates Green-Arrow?
And Ant-man totally isn't based on the Atom, right?
And don't get me started on the Black Cat/Catwoman debacle.
Peter Parker's classic protrayal has always had a lot in common with Clark Kent.
Bullseye's creators were certainly inspired by Deadshot.
The Nova corps concept is totally original.....not, rip off of the Green Lantern Corp.
DC starts a team called the Justice League...soon after Marvel creates the fantastic 4.
Bucky Barnes is a Robin ripoff.

  And these are all off the top of my head; once I started typing, more and more unoriginal characters and concepts from Marvel that DC had already done came to mind, and here you are, saying that Dc take the ideas of others..

----------


## The Kid

Flash is gonna look tiny compared to Superman, Batman, and now Aquaman

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> Who the hell comments on Aquaman unless they actually like the character? lol. I wouldn't have responded otherwise.


Riiiiiight.

We get it. He's not White. Obviously completely wrong for the part.

----------


## Angilasman

My wish for the Suicide Squad movie: a small but pivotal role for Eel O'Brien.

----------


## Paper Monkey

I have a strong feeling that Aquaman is going to the be the one character that will stand out in the movie compared to the other characters. A lot of people in the public have a preconceived notion of the Aquaman character, and I think this movie can easily change people's perceptions about Aquaman (hopefully for the better).

I am still trying to figure out how Aquaman is now a rip off of Namor. Is it because he is not blond anymore?

----------


## Hatestorm

With hollywood's predisposition for casting blonde males as bad guys, Black Manta will probably end up looking more like Aquaman than Aquaman does.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Flash is gonna look tiny compared to Superman, Batman, and now Aquaman


Another reason why the Flash casting is questionable.  He is a good up and coming actor, but he looks nothing at all like ANY Flash that  we have ever seen.  Looking the role is part of the craft.  He will now also look diminutive and misplaced next to the other JLers.  He'll end up being like 70 lbs. lighter than Aquaman.  I find it doubtful that he'll even be bulking up for the role... I guess we'll have to wait and see.

----------


## Punisher007

Flash doesn't need to look huge.  He needs to look like, well a runner.  Fit but not necessarily overly-muscular.  And honestly I don't care if he looks 100% like the character (there are things like make-up, hair dye, and other "movie magic" for that sort of thing anyway) as long as he gets the characters, character down.

----------


## FishboneX

> With hollywood's predisposition for casting blonde males as bad guys, Black Manta will probably end up looking more like Aquaman than Aquaman does.


That's the second reference you've made to this with nothing to back it up with, so I'm just going to peg you as a troll.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Flash doesn't need to look huge.  He needs to look like, well a runner.  Fit but not necessarily overly-muscular.  And honestly I don't care if he looks 100% like the character (there are things like make-up, hair dye, and other "movie magic" for that sort of thing anyway) as long as he gets the characters, character down.


I never said he needed to look huge... but he shouldn't look diminutive next to the other members.  I'd have more confidence in the casting if they had looked at other people for the role as well.  They didn't even have a casting process to see who was best for the role.  I also doubt that they'll be able to make Miller look very convincing with blonde hair.  Maybe they'll attempt to dye his hair and make him tanner with make up, like they did with Zachary Levi for Fandrall.  Then again... Levi is no where near as pale as Miller so it may not work.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I have a strong feeling that Aquaman is going to the be the one character that will stand out in the movie compared to the other characters. A lot of people in the public have a preconceived notion of the Aquaman character, and I think this movie can easily change people's perceptions about Aquaman (hopefully for the better).
> 
> I am still trying to figure out how Aquaman is now a rip off of Namor. Is it because he is not blond anymore?


As long as he doesn't end up being all "Blah blah blah *my people*! Blah blah blah!"  I'm sorry, my disappointment with Zod is showing again.  Anyway, bamf'ness without depth will change people's perceptions alright but it won't necessarily make him a fan favorite.

----------


## Robotman

Miller being a lot smaller in stature than guys like Affleck and Mamoa will be fine. Flash and Cyborg are going to be the junior members of the Justice League. I think he'll still be Barry Allen but his role will be similar to Wally's on the JLU cartoon. The youthful exuberance works well with the speedster powers. Just look at Grant Gustin's Barry Allen, Quicksilver from DoFP, and of course Wally West from JLU.

----------


## Marvel_Is

> Riiiiiight.
> 
> We get it. He's not White. Obviously completely wrong for the part.


All I'm saying is that he's not _my_ ideal Aquaman. I feel like he's being shafted yet again. So sad.  :Frown:

----------


## FishboneX

> All I'm saying is that he's not _my_ ideal Aquaman. I feel like he's being shafted yet again. So sad.


Luckily, sad for you means excitement for the majority who recognize his decade-long armored, long hair and beard look as the bad ass he is.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Not a huge fan of the over all color pallet of this costume, too dark, the oceans tend to be more colorful. My main worry is that people are going to think he's Poseidon from Wrath of the Titans or something like that. The similarities are there, and while I'm fine with the tattoos...the hair looks white rather then blonde, might be the filtering, but I would think that they would have kindly given him some more gold in his look. there's just something about it that...I don't know, I get the vibe that they're going to push a more "He needs to learn about the surface world" rather then show him to be the king people know him as. I really don't want DC to turn Arthur into Namor, just as I don't want Namor to become Arthur, and I want neither to become Poseidon.

----------


## Luck911

original.jpg

This how pic might look if it had color.

----------


## Triple J

WW Shooting Begins in Fall!




> Gadot will next be seen in the Fox Searchlight film Criminal in August and in September the movie Triple Nine. She plays Wonder Woman in Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice and then *films Wonder Woman in the fall.*


Source: http://deadline.com/2015/02/gal-gado...es-1201378159/

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> WW Shooting Begins in Fall!
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://deadline.com/2015/02/gal-gado...es-1201378159/


Cool.  I wonder when Justice League will start...

----------


## Black_Adam

> WW Shooting Begins in Fall!
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://deadline.com/2015/02/gal-gado...es-1201378159/


Nice, hopefully we start to get some casting news to figure out who will be in this movie and what approach they are taking with it. Will they go the full mythological route and include Olympus, Ares, Apollo etc. or maybe something more grounded?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> WW Shooting Begins in Fall!
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://deadline.com/2015/02/gal-gado...es-1201378159/


Can. Not. WAIT!!!  :Big Grin: 

So glad it's finally happening. I hope whichever of the six scripts they chose was a good one.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Cool.  I wonder when Justice League will start...


Since JL is set for release after WW I guess after WW is done so maybe around this time next year?

----------


## Rogue Star

> WW Shooting Begins in Fall!
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://deadline.com/2015/02/gal-gado...es-1201378159/


I thought they might want to wait to see how audiences receive her as Wonder Woman before beginning filming.  I guess this is a good sign.  She might pleasantly surprise me after all.

----------


## Punisher007

Well if the movie is supposed to come out in 2017, then they cannot wait for too long, especially since BVS doesn't come out until next year.  Plus maybe they've learned that sometimes you just have to go all-in and then let the chips fall where they may.

----------


## Punisher007

> Nice, hopefully we start to get some casting news to figure out who will be in this movie and what approach they are taking with it. Will they go the full mythological route and include Olympus, Ares, Apollo etc. or maybe something more grounded?


Well they've already confirmed that they're going with "demigoddess" origin from the New 52.  Or maybe not the whole origin so much as the "she's the daughter of Zeus" part of it, which would mean going mythological at least a little bit.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Well they've already confirmed that they're going with "demigoddess" origin from the New 52.  Or maybe not the whole origin so much as the "she's the daughter of Zeus" part of it, which would mean going mythological at least a little bit.


I, for one, certainly hope that they don't go with Diana's full New 52 origin. 

I don't mind her being the daughter of Zeus as a concept, but I really don't want to see Hippolyta's character besmirched yet again by making her just a selfish woman who slept with another woman's husband to get what she wanted. 

Personally? I see a way to combine her clay origin with the daughter of Zeus origin. We saw it in the Wonder Woman animated movie.

In that movie, Hippolyta still sculpts a clay baby, and anoints it with her blood. The baby is then brought to life by a massive lightning strike from the sky. You could EASILY rework that scene to say that Diana was, in fact, brought to life by Zeus. No sleeping with Hippolyta required. Zeus is Diana's "father" because he had a hand in bringing her to life. Perhaps a small amount of his divine essence infused Diana when he animated her, and there is a kind of metaphysical kinship, but it's still largely metaphorical, rather than factual. 

There you go. Diana's origin as a barren mother's fulfilled wish is intact. Diana has a "father." And Hippolyta doesn't look like a total scumbag in the process. Everybody wins.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> I, for one, certainly hope that they don't go with Diana's full New 52 origin. 
> 
> I don't mind her being the daughter of Zeus as a concept, but I really don't want to see Hippolyta's character besmirched yet again by making her just a selfish woman who slept with another woman's husband to get what she wanted. 
> 
> Personally? I see a way to combine her clay origin with the daughter of Zeus origin. We saw it in the Wonder Woman animated movie.
> 
> In that movie, Hippolyta still sculpts a clay baby, and anoints it with her blood. The baby is then brought to life by a massive lightning strike from the sky. You could EASILY rework that scene to say that Diana was, in fact, brought to life by Zeus. No sleeping with Hippolyta required. Zeus is Diana's "father" because he had a hand in bringing her to life. Perhaps a small amount of his divine essence infused Diana when he animated her, and there is a kind of metaphysical kinship, but it's still largely metaphorical, rather than factual. 
> 
> There you go. Diana's origin as a barren mother's fulfilled wish is intact. Diana has a "father." And Hippolyta doesn't look like a total scumbag in the process. Everybody wins.


This. So much this. I love the stories that come from Diana being Zeus' daughter, but I hate how Hippolyta gets portrayed to do it. This would be a great compromise. (And keep the awesome clay origin.)

----------


## FlashingSabre

> Miller being a lot smaller in stature than guys like Affleck and Mamoa will be fine. Flash and Cyborg are going to be the junior members of the Justice League. I think he'll still be Barry Allen but his role will be similar to Wally's on the JLU cartoon. The youthful exuberance works well with the speedster powers. Just look at Grant Gustin's Barry Allen, Quicksilver from DoFP, and of course Wally West from JLU.


Yeah, I'm a massive fan of the Flash, and that is an awful idea. Barry is. Just as experienced and qualified as any other leaguer. To portray it any other way is to do the character a massive disservice. And frankly, if they really want to convince people that Cyborg deserves to be in the League, they need to show that he's just as good as the rest of them. Making him a junior member will just make him seem less important than everyone else.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> original.jpg
> 
> This how pic might look if it had color.


Now that looks awesome. I like the idea of his tattoos being green. It evokes his costume without being obvious.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm fine with Hippolyta and Zeus hooking up honestly, as long as they do something different with it than the comics.  I've never agreed with the idea that A. Hippolyta sleeping with a man somehow automatically makes her a "lesser" character, or B. Diana having an actual dad makes her less "feminist."

----------


## FlashingSabre

> I'm fine with Hippolyta and Zeus hooking up honestly, as long as they do something different with it than the comics.  I've never agreed with the idea that A. Hippolyta sleeping with a man somehow automatically makes her a "lesser" character, or B. Diana having an actual dad makes her less "feminist."


I like the symbolism of her being a pure-blooded Amazon, with no foreign male DNA at all. It really has nothing to do with feminism. And the Hippolyta thing, I just don't like an character all about being good and honorable commuting adultery, against one of her gods especially.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm fine with Hippolyta and Zeus hooking up honestly, as long as they do something different with it than the comics.  I've never agreed with the idea that A. Hippolyta sleeping with a man somehow automatically makes her a "lesser" character, or B. Diana having an actual dad makes her less "feminist."


Hippolyta sleeping with a man DOESN'T make her a lesser character. Hippolyta selfishly sleeping with a MARRIED man, knowing full-well the likely consequences of the affair in this particular case, is what makes her a lesser character. For Hippolyta to betray another woman, especially a goddess who had been good to Hippolyta and her people in the past, just makes her look like an awful person. The clay origin is a nice origin because Hippolyta found a way to fulfill her wish for a child without having to hurt anyone else in the process.

Wonder Woman also isn't less feminist simply because she has a father. "Feminism" is a mindset one chooses to adopt. The circumstances of one's birth has nothing to do with being feminist or not. 

But I do agree with you, that I may be okay with Hippolyta and Zeus actually having sex, but I really want the writers to find a way to make it look better than it did in the Azz run. Almost any concept can work if executed properly. I just don't feel the Azz run did that.

----------


## Robotman

> Yeah, I'm a massive fan of the Flash, and that is an awful idea. Barry is. Just as experienced and qualified as any other leaguer. To portray it any other way is to do the character a massive disservice. And frankly, if they really want to convince people that Cyborg deserves to be in the League, they need to show that he's just as good as the rest of them. Making him a junior member will just make him seem less important than everyone else.


I don't see Ezra playing Barry as a goofball just a younger version. The experience levels of the League members are going to be very different from the comic book versions. Batman is going to be the slightly grizzled veteran who is more than 10 years older than Supes and Wonder Woman may be close to a century old since she's an immortal demi goddess. So Barry being in his mid 20s won't be that big of a deal comparatively. 
WB has seen that the Peter Parker-like Barry is working on The Flash show. We may get something similar in the movies.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Yeah, I'm a massive fan of the Flash, and that is an awful idea. Barry is. Just as experienced and qualified as any other leaguer. To portray it any other way is to do the character a massive disservice. And frankly, if they really want to convince people that Cyborg deserves to be in the League, they need to show that he's just as good as the rest of them. Making him a junior member will just make him seem less important than everyone else.


I don't think he meant it like that, I think he meant Cyborg and Flash will be the youngest members of the league say mid 20s while the others are in their 30s, with Batman being the oldest.

----------


## Pinsir

> I don't think he meant it like that, I think he meant Cyborg and Flash will be the youngest members of the league say mid 20s while the others are in their 30s, with Batman being the oldest.


What if Wonder Woman is immortal though ~~~~~~

----------


## Rogue Star

So does anyone think the Legion of Superheroes movie rumor holds weight? 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/02/...rheroes-movie/




> Based on the long running DC Comics book of the same name, the Legion Of Superheroes film will be set in the far future, with a massive cast of superheroic characters spread out across a galaxy. And the tone is intended to be lighter than other DC superhero movies.
> 
> It hasn’t been greenlit yet. But it is in serious development….

----------


## Robotman

> So does anyone think the Legion of Superheroes movie rumor holds weight? 
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/02/...rheroes-movie/


I'm sure they're waiting to see how Justice League and the current crop of DC movies does before green lighting LoS, which could be a big undertaking what with the large cast of characters and the future/space setting. Obviously we won't be seeing this movie happen until well into the 2020s (which just sounds weird to say).

----------


## nightrider

is this being talked about alr?
We could have el diablo in suicide squad.
He's actually one of the characters I thought worked best in SS

----------


## Robotman

Rumor is Jay Hernandez is playing El Diablo. But apparently it's a very small role. Pretty much a cameo as El Diablo will be shown with the other meta human inmates.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Attachment 18096
> 
> This how pic might look if it had color.


Now that looks a lot better for showing off Aquaman. Okay so his hair is blonde, it looks white with the filter on, and I still wish they would have given him more gold, maybe some sort of chest protection? I know they wanted to show off Mamosa's body, but throw in another cover for the other arm, or around his stomach or chest? It would even out the look and show that he's more protected, also it would balance the image a bit more. Right now it seems like he's open for a lot of hits. The other thing I would have done, clip the beard some, mostly because right now his face when he's looking with that stare reminds me a lot of Thorne Oakensheild from the Hobbit. Slight smoothing of the hair could work. 

Or as Flashsaber suggested, color the tattoos green or maybe have a hint of gold in them in some way? I think that could work as a means of invoking the costume that Arthur normally wears. 

Why WB do you insists on the dark and gritty thing? We've seen it in movies for years. Dark and gritty isn't selling as well as it used to, please, put a color poster out of this.

----------


## nightrider

> Rumor is Jay Hernandez is playing El Diablo. But apparently it's a very small role. Pretty much a cameo as El Diablo will be shown with the other meta human inmates.


A pity. I would really like for El Diablo to be a feature in the movie. Even as Cannon Folder.

----------


## Darrell D.

Very intense picture of Momoa as Aquaman...love it.

----------


## Darrell D.

> Wow this is the kinda of BS I think that was stated so often until it actually becomes believeable, if Aquaman has been copying Namor since the Golden Age how comes it was Aquaman that was first established as King of Altantis only to be followed by Namor years later??


Namor was established as Prince of Atlantis in his first appearances.  The Sub Mariner was created as a character for a movie serial and Timely was tapped to create a tie-in comic.  The serial never happened, and Timely used the character in Marvel Comics #1.  
Personally, I don't have a dog in this 'who came first' fight, because I don't care. The Golden Age was full of derivative characters in the interest in making a quick buck.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Aquaman would destroy Namor anyway. *sips tea*

----------


## Predator JP

Momoa looks badass as Aquaman, loving it.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> Aquaman would destroy Namor anyway. *sips tea*


Depends on the situation. Without his TP, Arthur is kind of screwed. Namor is stronger out of water and can fly.

----------


## themiddle

> Depends on the situation. Without his TP, Arthur is kind of screwed. Namor is stronger out of water and can fly.


i noticed you have franky as your avatar. wouldn't it be cool if the straw hat pirates stumbled into atlantis and orin?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I've been thinking about Suicide Squad. Why not have a few Suicide Squad writers like Ostrander cameo and fill a role similar to Grant Morrison's cameo in the Suicide Squad comics?

----------


## Triple J

*Shazam might release earlier than predicted!*

----------


## Robotman

Wow, with Marvel's Capatin Marvel being pushed back maybe WB/DC could use the "Captain Marvel" name first if they can get Shazam to theaters early.

Add that to the fact that the Supergirl show is about to take back the "Danvers" name for the character.

----------


## Black_Adam

http://screenrant.com/batman-vs-supe...n-flash-cameo/

Take it with a grain of salt, but this article says Aquaman only appears in 2 scenes in BvS once in a survey of metahumans by Luthor and more importantly at the very end when Batman is recruiting for the league.

I know it is still early but a theory about Arthur, perhaps he turned his back on the surface world a long time ago went to live in Atlantis, and the events of MoS force him to come back to the surface. Looking at the photo I just don't see this Aquaman living in a lighthouse in a small town lol he would kinda stick out like a sore thumb.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=115633

Margot Robbie confirms  she has a multi picture deal with WB, I guess it is safe to say Smith and Leto probably do too.




> Wow, with Marvel's Capatin Marvel being pushed back maybe WB/DC could use the "Captain Marvel" name first if they can get Shazam to theaters early.
> 
> Add that to the fact that the Supergirl show is about to take back the "Danvers" name for the character.


I hope they include at least a small acknowledgement to the name, even it is something like Billy after gaining his powers and is trying to think of a name for himself and he is like "hmmm Captain Marvel?"

----------


## Frontier

> *Shazam might release earlier than predicted!*


Still waiting for news on the casting of Billy/Shazam  :Smile: .

----------


## Rogue Star

> Wow, with Marvel's Capatin Marvel being pushed back maybe WB/DC could use the "Captain Marvel" name first if they can get Shazam to theaters early.
> 
> Add that to the fact that the Supergirl show is about to* take back* the "Danvers" name for the character.


Take back the Danvers name?  This is new talk to me. Care to explain?

----------


## Rogue Star

> *Shazam might release earlier than predicted!*


Wow - I'll bet he got a phone call from WB after all those beans got spilled.

----------


## Robotman

> Take back the Danvers name?  This is new talk to me. Care to explain?


In the Silver Age Supergirl went by the name Linda Danvers and used the name again in the 90s. When Ms. Marvel first appeared she was pretty clearly a take on Supergirl. A young blonde with many of Supergirl's powers along with the last name Danvers. Of course Supergirl was created because of the popularity of Mary Marvel. In fact the first Supergirl story was written by Otto Binder who created Mary Marvel.

----------


## The Kid

Man The Rock is gonna be such a good Black Adam. Talk about perfect casting

----------


## Rogue Star

> In the Silver Age Supergirl went by the name Linda Danvers and used the name again in the 90s. When Ms. Marvel first appeared she was pretty clearly a take on Supergirl. A young blonde with many of Supergirl's powers along with the last name Danvers. Of course Supergirl was created because of the popularity of Mary Marvel. In fact the first Supergirl story was written by Otto Binder who created Mary Marvel.


Wow, my mind just got twisted into a pretzel.  Mary Marvel sounds familiar. Maybe she was related to Shazam/Cap Marvel. I'll research it out. Thanks.





> Man The Rock is gonna be such a good Black Adam. Talk about perfect casting


Yeah, that's kinda ace right there.  I knew he was going to be Black Adam as soon as his name came into the conversation of Shazam.

----------


## Doctor Know

MOS suit vs DOJ suit

----------


## Frontier

So...looks like we're getting a smaller S symbol and more noticeable blue. Looks great to me  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Doctor Know

> So...looks like we're getting a smaller S symbol and more noticeable blue. Looks great to me .


Also the belt and boots changed.

----------


## Frontier

> Also the belt and boots changed.


Oh yeah, completely different belt and new details on the boots too  :Smile: .

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Good to see that they're doing something about the washed-out palette complaints.

----------


## Starchild

If Shazam is being released early then it sounds like WB has confidence in the property. I just hope that James Wan is really attached to direct, he's been wanting to step outside of his comfort zone a little bit and this could be perfect for him imo.

----------


## Robotman

> Good to see that they're doing something about the washed-out palette complaints.


Yeah the more pronounced blue on the costume looks great! I even like the little changes to the boots.

----------


## The Kid

More blue is great. Of all DC movies, I think Shazam has the most potential. It's like the ultimate fantasy for little kids

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Depends on the situation. Without his TP, Arthur is kind of screwed. Namor is stronger out of water and can fly.


What is TP? Aquaman would destroy Namor in or out of water. I don't understand why people still think Arthur has some dependency on water. That's just not true. 

Also, he has mental powers.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> More blue is great. Of all DC movies, I think Shazam has the most potential. It's like the ultimate fantasy for little kids


Unless they decide to turn it into a teen drama and make it more a superhero teen movie rather then one where you have the fantasy going on. *sighs* I can kind of see them going for an older cast of teens to play the characters, Billy being in high school over his normal age. More likely to pull in a teen demographic for Captain Marvel. I really don't want the new version of Billy showing up on screen. WB needs more, shall we say, light hearted stories showing up. Captain Marvel would be great, but I have a feeling we're going to see something more Twilight or hunger games then Harry potter. And I really don't like that pessimistic feeling I'm having about this. 

Rogue star: Mary marvel is Billy's sister, either older or younger, who gains similar powers to him and calls out Shazam to turn into Mary Marvel, the Captain's partner.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> What is TP? Aquaman would destroy Namor in or out of water. I don't understand why people still think Arthur has some dependency on water. That's just not true. 
> 
> Also, he has mental powers.


I think it's Telekentic powers? In regard to these two, Namor has the upper hand with brute strength and probably speed seeing how he can fly. However, Arthur could out maneuver him by using Namor's ego against him. I think they would pretty much be equally matched in the end, Namor seeing him as a King would mean he would have some respect for him as long as Arthur showed the same to him.

----------


## Triple J

> Still waiting for news on the casting of Billy/Shazam .





> Wow - I'll bet he got a phone call from WB after all those beans got spilled.


I think they might have already cast Shazam - just keeping it under wraps.

I also don't think their original plan was to release Shazam in '19. If so, why would they announce Johnson's role as Black Adam?




> More blue is great. Of all DC movies, I think Shazam has the most potential. It's like the ultimate fantasy for little kids


Agreed. With DC's current tone, many of their movies might not be all that kid friendly...Shazam can serve as a different thing - targeting kids. Cyborg can also be a light hearted movie.

I honestly believe, if they get it right, Shazam/Cap would become popular, as he used to be  :Big Grin:

----------


## Triple J

Hans Zimmer says he might make the scores for WW and Aquaman

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Hans Zimmer says he might make the scores for WW and Aquaman


The go to guy for superhero scores lol but seriously, after watching TASM2 and Interstellar they guy isn't losing his touch at all. Hopefully he will score the entire DCCU.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I think they might have already cast Shazam - just keeping it under wraps.
> 
> I also don't think their original plan was to release Shazam in '19. If so, why would they announce Johnson's role as Black Adam?
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. With DC's current tone, many of their movies might not be all that kid friendly...Shazam can serve as a different thing - targeting kids. Cyborg can also be a light hearted movie.
> 
> I honestly believe, if they get it right, Shazam/Cap would become popular, as he used to be


I was referring to him laying out the entire plan for Black Adam, even mentioning him becoming an anti-hero.  That's like spoiler territory.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I was referring to him laying out the entire plan for Black Adam, even mentioning him becoming an anti-hero.  That's like spoiler territory.


Not really. That's been Black Adam's story for a very long time. 

Truthfully, Black Adam really isn't a villain at all. What he is, is a hero whose definition of "justice" is about five thousand years out of date. He's big on Old Testament "eye-for-an-eye" kind of justice.

He does things that we would consider "wrong" or "excessive" today. But back in his time, his methods would've been completely acceptable.

EDIT: 

And more good news on DC's use of brighter colors in superhero costumes. Wonder Woman's costume is said to be much closer in color to her comic book colors than the initial picture we've seen of her suggests.




> "I've seen some uncorrected pictures of Batman and Wonder Woman on set and I really like Wonder Woman's color scheme. In reality that skirt is blue, and in general her outfit is closer to the comics than the initial image indicated."


http://badassdigest.com/2015/02/20/f...cious-aquaman/

----------


## liwanag

> Hans Zimmer says he might make the scores for WW and Aquaman


I love hans zimmer's scores. Epic man. Hope this comes true.

----------


## Triple J

Momoa on Playing Aquaman




> *It’s a good time for The Red Road’s return because your profile is going to be amplified, especially after that poster of you as Aquaman arrived.*
> 
> That was a shocker for sure. It was supposed to be a surprise in 2016, so it definitely helps [our show]. I’ve been holding that secret for a long time. Zack Snyder called me up and said, “I’m posting this picture now.” He’s just a genius and I love him to death. He sent it over and we’re in the middle of the editing suite for the thing I’m doing right now, and we all freaked out, man. It was so amazing to see it come out.  
> 
> I know it’s superficial of me, but one thing I really like about the potential of the DC movies is that its actors are actually pretty imposing. By that I mean, when I see you—who’s 6’5”—or 6’4” Ben Affleck or 6’1” Henry Cavill throw someone through a wall or get thrown through a wall, I feel like there’s really some damage being done. 
> 
> *Have you filmed any action sequences with them yet?*
> 
> No, we haven’t done too much on the action yet. You know, Justice League is still quite a ways away. But I’m looking forward to it. Henry’s a sweetheart, Ben is a badass, so I’m really looking forward to when we all shoot Justice League.
> ...


Source: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/02/27...d1bfa9e11b4b6f

----------


## FlashingSabre

> What is TP? Aquaman would destroy Namor in or out of water. I don't understand why people still think Arthur has some dependency on water. That's just not true. 
> 
> Also, he has mental powers.


TP is telepathy, or mental powers. And Namora is a 100 tonner when dry. Aquaman is like 60 on land. Plus, Namor can fly. Aquaman still detrys him in water, and if he gets TP he's destroys him easy.

----------


## Lightning Rider

This last episode of Arrow pissed me off so much, I had to write something about it.

1. The whole "Thea might feel guilty" angle is totally out there and unrealistic. "Oh no she might feel bad so let me go risk my life against the man who completely owned me". I get the "someone else beat me" thing but it's just far too much of a stretch. Stupid, and unnecessary. Somehow killing dozens of assassins while rescuing Merlyn is of no consequence though. 

2. Why is Ray Palmer, AKA the Atom, a fucking Iron Man knock-off? He's a superhero who shrinks. As if the re-writing of his personality weren't enough. Let's just make up some shit. Give him a jet pack. 

3. Ra's wanting Oliver to replace him is just a painfully laughable rip off of Batman. They've now gone even farther in turning Oliver into a watered down Bruce Wayne. It's a hallmark of Batman, now co-opted for this shit soap opera.

----------


## nightrider

theres a similar thread alr.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Already a thread I think but the Flash is DC's only good show right now. That show is amazing IMO. Arrow is so bad right now, Constantine is not bad but it's getting dull and I've been watching it pretty infrequently.

----------


## DC>Marvel

GREEN LANTERN(all main green lanterns) CASTING CHOICES:

Chris Pine as Hal Jordan
Idris Elba as John Stewart
Bradley Cooper as Guy Gardner
Jake Gyllenhaal as Kyle Rayner
Kristen Kreuk as Jessica Cruz
Neil Patrick Harris as Alan Scott
Wentworth Miller as Simon Baz

----------


## GrandKaiser

> TP is telepathy, or mental powers. And Namora is a 100 tonner when dry. Aquaman is like 60 on land. Plus, Namor can fly. Aquaman still detrys him in water, and if he gets TP he's destroys him easy.


Aquaman can shoot himself out of the water. Also he's got cosmic beings and gods on his side. Who does Namor have? Sue Storm?

----------


## GrandKaiser

> GREEN LANTERN(all main green lanterns) CASTING CHOICES:
> 
> Chris Pine as Hal Jordan
> Idris Elba as John Stewart
> Bradley Cooper as Guy Gardner
> Jake Gyllenhaal as Kyle Rayner
> Kristen Kreuk as Jessica Cruz
> Neil Patrick Harris as Alan Scott
> Wentworth Miller as Simon Baz


Wentworth Miller as Simon Baz?  :Confused:

----------


## DC>Marvel

> Wentworth Miller as Simon Baz?


lol just being a troll

----------


## GrandKaiser

> lol just being a troll


 :Big Grin:  Shoulda picked up on that. I kinda want to see NPH as Alan Scott though...interesting...

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Already a thread I think but the Flash is DC's only good show right now. That show is amazing IMO. Arrow is so bad right now, Constantine is not bad but it's getting dull and I've been watching it pretty infrequently.


The Flash is "good" for casual viewers, but I think it just reaches so far with the changes that it bears so little relation to the comics. Zoom is training Barry? And Barry, who is now basically Peter Parker, grew up with Iris? And Iris is dating Eobard Thawne? And Linda Park is dating Barry? It's all just so...why.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> The Flash is "good" for casual viewers, but I think it just reaches so far with the changes that it bears so little relation to the comics. Zoom is training Barry? And Barry, who is now basically Peter Parker, grew up with Iris? And Iris is dating Eobard Thawne? And Linda Park is dating Barry? It's all just so...why.


I don't think we're watching the same show. It's Eddie Thawne, not Eobard. We don't know Wells' motives and he's not training Barry. I don't see any similarities between Barry and Peter Parker but I do see similarities between Barry Allen and Barry Allen.

----------


## DragonPiece

> havent seen any of these threads around lately, thought I would start one. This is the place to start all your discussion and talk about the any media involving DC Comics and its Cinematic Universe.


This thread isn't need because it's way too broad of a topic.

----------


## Triple J

Hmm, thread merged. We still have two different threads though - this was intended to be a cinematic universe thread (and the other one on DC comics in other media). So, perhaps change the title back to DC Cinematic Universes?

(I don't recommend merging the other one with this since that will make the thread too broad).

----------


## DC>Marvel

> Hmm, thread merged. We still have two different threads though - this was intended to be a cinematic universe thread (and the other one on DC comics in other media). So, perhaps change the title back to DC Cinematic Universes?
> 
> (I don't recommend merging the other one with this since that will make the thread too broad).


I think its good we talk about the cinematic universe, the flarrowverse and animated movies/tv shows. not too much to handle

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't think we're watching the same show. It's Eddie Thawne, not Eobard. We don't know Wells' motives and he's not training Barry. I don't see any similarities between Barry and Peter Parker but I do see similarities between Barry Allen and Barry Allen.


Right, so who the fuck is Eddie Thawne? 

Who the fuck is Wells for that matter? He's wearing a yellow suit, has access to future information, and beats Barry up, with implications he wants him to be a better hero. And if he's not training Barry, he's coaching him.

It doesn't feel like Barry. Not only did they use the terrible retcon for his origin, they had to make him a lovesick puppy with lifelong geek victim status. That's now the Barry I know. 


It doesn't feel like the Flash. CW does it's formulaic soap opera crap while making huge departures from the stories and personalities. It's watchable, and I watch it, but it's not an honest quality representation of the Flash. It's just not.

----------


## nightrider

> Right, so who the fuck is Eddie Thawne? 
> 
> Who the fuck is Wells for that matter? He's wearing a yellow suit, has access to future information, and beats Barry up, with implications he wants him to be a better hero. And if he's not training Barry, he's coaching him.
> 
> It doesn't feel like Barry. Not only did they use the terrible retcon for his origin, they had to make him a lovesick puppy with lifelong geek victim status. That's now the Barry I know. 
> 
> 
> It doesn't feel like the Flash. CW does it's formulaic soap opera crap while making huge departures from the stories and personalities. It's watchable, and I watch it, but it's not an honest quality representation of the Flash. It's just not.


The Barry Allen you know has like 7 years of recent publishing. Its not like he is Superman where there are hundred over stories to adapt from. 
The way I see it, CW's Barry Allen is a version of the Flash from recent publishing. He's been shown to be a bit of a nerd and kinda has this awkward thing about him which I think the show represented very well especially in the new 52 version of flash.
The identity of Eddie Thawne and Wells will be revealed in due time. This is just a staple tv show tactic, misleading the audience and then doing a big reveal at the end of the season (some comicbooks does it also esp Grant Morrison ones) It doesn't matter if they're using a retcon of the origins, it originated from the comics and its making DC comics very relevant. With regards to him being a lovesick puppy, I think thats just because they didnt want Barry to end up with Iris right off the bat. How boring is it to have him date his first gf and marry her. I like the idea that he's dating around, linda park, felicity, maybe even patty spivot (where is she?)

----------


## Punisher007

Complaining about Green Arrow being a Batman ripoff is amusing.  He was originally created as such a blatant Batman ripoff that it's laughable.  So if anything, the show is being accurate in that regard.  As for "Ra's wants an heir" well that's kind of his thing.  He also considered potentially making Bane and Tim Drake his heirs at various points in the comics.  It's not just Batman.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> Right, so who the fuck is Eddie Thawne? 
> 
> Who the fuck is Wells for that matter? He's wearing a yellow suit, has access to future information, and beats Barry up, with implications he wants him to be a better hero. And if he's not training Barry, he's coaching him.
> 
> It doesn't feel like Barry. Not only did they use the terrible retcon for his origin, they had to make him a lovesick puppy with lifelong geek victim status. That's now the Barry I know. 
> 
> 
> It doesn't feel like the Flash. CW does it's formulaic soap opera crap while making huge departures from the stories and personalities. It's watchable, and I watch it, but it's not an honest quality representation of the Flash. It's just not.


Wells is Thane. He's training Barry to become the Flash, so that he will become famous enough to be well known in the future. He's insuring that he will be able to get his powers in the future so that he can become Professor Zoom.

----------


## Triple J

*Ayer on Twitter*




> The craftsmanship that goes into a film set is astounding. The carpentry, sculpture and painting is worldclass. #skwad


https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...00599477460992



https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...99077777371136




> @pottertardis: @DavidAyerMovies could you please describe jared letos's joker in one word ? Majestic #skwad


https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...00425008799745

----------


## GrandKaiser

Skwad! Like a parrot.

----------


## Triple J

*Margot Robbie on SS*

----------


## GrandKaiser

> *Margot Robbie on SS*


Interesting how she said the film will be on the "Dark Knight" side of things.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Complaining about Green Arrow being a Batman ripoff is amusing.  *He was originally created as such a blatant Batman ripoff that it's laughable.  So if anything, the show is being accurate in that regard.*  As for "Ra's wants an heir" well that's kind of his thing.  He also considered potentially making Bane and Tim Drake his heirs at various points in the comics.  It's not just Batman.


I said this on a YouTube video and boy did some people's butts get HURT! LOL

----------


## Sirzechs

> The Barry Allen you know has like 7 years of recent publishing. Its not like he is Superman where there are hundred over stories to adapt from. 
> The way I see it, CW's Barry Allen is a version of the Flash from recent publishing. He's been shown to be a bit of a nerd and kinda has this awkward thing about him which I think the show represented very well especially in the new 52 version of flash.
> The identity of Eddie Thawne and Wells will be revealed in due time. This is just a staple tv show tactic, misleading the audience and then doing a big reveal at the end of the season (some comicbooks does it also esp Grant Morrison ones) It doesn't matter if they're using a retcon of the origins, it originated from the comics and its making DC comics very relevant. With regards to him being a lovesick puppy, I think thats just because they didnt want Barry to end up with Iris right off the bat. How boring is it to have him date his first gf and marry her. I like the idea that he's dating around, linda park, felicity, maybe even patty spivot (where is she?)


exactly honestly I don't get some of these complains especially when its aimed at CW but when the high networks does it some how acceptable? honestly some comic book fans need to get over themselves the shows aren't aimed just at you, networks can't alienate their audiences just because they adapted a comic book property because at the end of the day once the comic book show as ended the comic book audience leave with it so adjustments have to be made to appeal to the regulars and those that are fans of the comics.

----------


## DC>Marvel

Honestly I lost interest in Flash, never watched Arrow or Constantine (although Constantine ist CWVerse), it got boring and repetitive, although I do enjoy the character of Barry and Cisco, the supporting cast just cant help keep the shows quality up

----------


## FishboneX

> exactly honestly I don't get some of these complains especially when its aimed at CW but when the high networks does it some how acceptable? honestly some comic book fans need to get over themselves the shows aren't aimed just at you, networks can't alienate their audiences just because they adapted a comic book property because at the end of the day once the comic book show as ended the comic book audience leave with it so adjustments have to be made to appeal to the regulars and those that are fans of the comics.


Agreed. Any character adopted for the screen is basically an alternate universe version of the character. As long as the changes made are not ridiculously stupid, like the Catwoman movie, then is see no problem with it. You can make changes and not alienate fans if you respect the core of the character, and WB has knocked it out of the park there.mi cannot wait for the team show they want to launch.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Complaining about Green Arrow being a Batman ripoff is amusing.  He was originally created as such a blatant Batman ripoff that it's laughable.  So if anything, the show is being accurate in that regard.  As for "Ra's wants an heir" well that's kind of his thing.  He also considered potentially making Bane and Tim Drake his heirs at various points in the comics.  It's not just Batman.


And originally Batman had a gun, and Superman couldn't fly. Let's drop the pretense that reducing Oliver Queen to a cheap Bruce Wayne ripoff is somehow a legitimate representation of the character.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> You can make changes and not alienate fans if you respect the core of the character


Well this is precisely my problem with the CW representation. I just don't see the core of the characters. It doesn't feel like them and unnecessary changes have been made. It's almost like they had a nondescript superhero show already written and are just fitting DC characters into their conception. In fact, the producers of Arrow actually admitted that's what they do.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Monday is going to be interesting

----------


## Triple J

> Monday is going to be interesting


Interesting...I wonder what. First look (at anyone of the members?).

Update: Just saw this. Leto posted it on twitter (Tick Tock!). I think it's a first look pic.

----------


## nightrider

Wow I seriously can't wait for Monday to get more interesting. 
Have anyone heard about the rumor that there is a leaked bvs movie trailer on 4chan?

----------


## Robotman

Can't wait!!!

----------


## Black_Adam

> Monday is going to be interesting


Must keep my expectations in check... Leto Joker tease? Deadshot? Harley?

No it will probably be an official title logo or something.

----------


## Robotman

> Interesting how she said the film will be on the "Dark Knight" side of things.


That's depressing. I'm really tired of the Nolanesque "real world" superhero adaptations. I hope they at least have costumes and not black jump suits like the upcoming Fantastic Four disaster. If Harley isn't wearing black and red and has her face painted I'm gonna be pretty pissed. 
I was hoping The Flash had finally shown DC/WB that they should embrace the fun aspects of the source material. I know the Suicide Squad is a darker concept but I hope they  try to have a little fun with it.

----------


## Black_Adam

> That's depressing. I'm really tired of the Nolanesque "real world" superhero adaptations. I hope they at least have costumes and not black jump suits like the upcoming Fantastic Four disaster. If Harley isn't wearing black and red and has her face painted I'm gonna be pretty pissed. 
> I was hoping The Flash had finally shown DC/WB that they should embrace the fun aspects of the source material. I know the Suicide Squad is a darker concept but I hope they  try to have a little fun with it.


Think she means the tone of the film, it is David Ayer and it is the Suicide Squad, so I expect it to be a gritty heist film which is similar to the Dark Knight I guess.

Ayer said on his twitter he was looking to stick close to the source material. Also with Enchantress confirmed, and rumours of King Shark and El Diablo etc. I wouldn't worry about it being "too realistic".

----------


## Black_Adam

B_EjkIZUwAAqp_x.jpg

No beard for Leto Joker!

Also just a thought, maybe tomorrow we will find out the new casting for Flag?

----------


## Nite-Wing

> That's depressing. I'm really tired of the Nolanesque "real world" superhero adaptations. I hope they at least have costumes and not black jump suits like the upcoming Fantastic Four disaster. If Harley isn't wearing black and red and has her face painted I'm gonna be pretty pissed. 
> I was hoping The Flash had finally shown DC/WB that they should embrace the fun aspects of the source material. I know the Suicide Squad is a darker concept but I hope they  try to have a little fun with it.


Suicide Squad doesn't lend itself well to the fun stuff in comics
I mean the only thing I can ever recall that's been fun is captain boomerang pieing people and even then that's in between him being racist towards bronze tiger.
If anything I think this is the one movie I'd be okay with DC making overly serious and dark

----------


## FishboneX

> Well this is precisely my problem with the CW representation. I just don't see the core of the characters. It doesn't feel like them and unnecessary changes have been made. It's almost like they had a nondescript superhero show already written and are just fitting DC characters into their conception. In fact, the producers of Arrow actually admitted that's what they do.


I disagree, the character seems very much in line with the new 52 Barry Allen, with some changes made in order to fit in a TV format.

Can you link a quote to the producers saying they wrote a generic superhero show, and then just shoehorned Arrow into it?

----------


## Prime

Wonder how will GL play here. There must be a reason why he didn't come to Earth when Zod arrived.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Wonder how will GL play here. There must be a reason why he didn't come to Earth when Zod arrived.


Maybe he saw Supes fight and thought, he has got this lol Idk maybe GL was too busy in space, I mean they have a whole sector to protect.

----------


## liwanag

> Maybe he saw Supes fight and thought, he has got this lol Idk maybe GL was too busy in space, I mean they have a whole sector to protect.


Maybe GL ran into a couple of Kryptonian recon scouts. Got busy handling them and hauling them to an Oan sciencell.

----------


## FishboneX

> Wonder how will GL play here. There must be a reason why he didn't come to Earth when Zod arrived.


i think a GL on earth regularly is the odd thing, he's not a superhero, he's a space cop with a HUGE beat to patrol.  I bet he shows up on earth, or back to earth, to investigate wtf is happening there while he was off fighting some other major conflict.

----------


## Triple J

Or maybe he just didn't know. Guardians aren't exactly forthcoming of the events that happen on Earth (or he might be busy with other things in his sector).

I think a good way to deal with this is through the GL movie.

Let the events of GL movie happen during the events of MOS - Hal and the others are getting ready to fight a war - Sinestro Corps War or something like that.

----------


## Triple J

Ayer on Twitter



*Should we? #SuicideSquad* 

Source: https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...16755890454528

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe Warners can do a GL corps movie about the yellow lanterns. Later movies can be about red lanterns and black lanterns.

----------


## Gorblax

It's a shame that DC jumped the gun with Hal Jordan, because I would have loved to see an Emerald Twilight/Final Night adaptation.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Attachment 18500
> 
> No beard for Leto Joker!
> 
> Also just a thought, maybe tomorrow we will find out the new casting for Flag?


Joel Kinnaman is playing Flag.

I wonder who Jay Hernandez is playing. Maybe we'll find out today.

----------


## Triple J

*Leto's New Haircut*

----------


## GrandKaiser

> *Leto's New Haircut*


 :Embarrassment:  Interesting...

----------


## Robotman

I can definitely see him looking like Brian Bolland's Joker.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I can definitely see him looking like Brian Bolland's Joker.


He's even (almost) got the chin for it.

----------


## Starchild

Am I the only one that fears that the Suicide Squad will just be the Joker and Harley Quinn movie? I hope Waller, Capt. Boomerang, Flagg, etc get as much development and screen time too.

----------


## Robotman

> Am I the only one that fears that the Suicide Squad will just be the Joker and Harley Quinn movie? I hope Waller, Capt. Boomerang, Flagg, etc get as much development and screen time too.


It's pretty much going to be Will Smith's Deadshot vs Leto's Joker with Harley in the middle.

----------


## Starchild

> It's pretty much going to be Will Smith's Deadshot vs Leto's Joker with Harley in the middle.



Then they might as well call it something else, because that's not the SS.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> It's pretty much going to be Will Smith's Deadshot vs Leto's Joker with Harley in the middle.


Apparently Joker's going to be in prison until the end of the movie, giving the Squad info (at least that's the rumor...) .

----------


## Punisher007

I imagine that Waller, Deadshot, and probably Harley will get a lot of the focus.  Which sounds about right to me.

----------


## Robotman

> Apparently Joker's going to be in prison until the end of the movie, giving the Squad info (at least that's the rumor...) .


So they're basically adapting Assault on Arkham for live action. Minus Batman.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> So they're basically adapting Assault on Arkham for live action. Minus Batman.


Well, not exactly. According to the rumor it's Waller's prison and the Squad will be held there when they're not on missions. I have a feeling this will take some story elements from Green Arrow: Escape from Super Max, a film script written by Justin Marx (who wrote the script for Suicide Squad which had some rewrites by David Ayer) and that script took place inside Amanda Waller's prison and even featured the Joker. So I have a feeling this will essentially be the same movie just without Green Arrow and with more Suicide Squad missions.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Well, not exactly. According to the rumor it's Waller's prison and the Squad will be held there when they're not on missions. I have a feeling this will take some story elements from Green Arrow: Escape from Super Max, a film script written by Justin Marx (who wrote the script for Suicide Squad which had some rewrites by David Ayer) and that script took place inside Amanda Waller's prison and even featured the Joker. So I have a feeling this will essentially be the same movie just without Green Arrow and with more Suicide Squad missions.


We shall see.  I'm keepng my fingers crossed that they can make this movie GOOD.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> We shall see.  I'm keep my fingers crossed that they can make this movie GOOD.


I have very high hopes for this.

----------


## Sodam Yat

I'm looking forward to seeing the SS movie. If it's similar to the Nolan movies as far as realism goes. That's a plus for me.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Let's get one thing straight here. If I see another post about Gal Gadot ever being anorexic or anything remotely resembling body shaming here, then you might find yourself banned here for a while. Don't debate it here, just do it. I have *zero* patience for this type of nonsense.

----------


## Triple J

> Am I the only one that fears that the Suicide Squad will just be the Joker and Harley Quinn movie? I hope Waller, Capt. Boomerang, Flagg, etc get as much development and screen time too.





> It's pretty much going to be Will Smith's Deadshot vs Leto's Joker with Harley in the middle.





> Apparently Joker's going to be in prison until the end of the movie, giving the Squad info (at least that's the rumor...) .


I certainly hope not. A cameo wouldn't be too bad..like in the animated feature. Let the SS member be the main characters.

I doubt whether they would do a Bats sequel with Joker as the villain immediately..perhaps in 2020 or something...Sequel/prequel to a solo Bats film. So, they might just give him a bigger appearance in SS as the villain. Who knows?

----------


## Vakanai

> It's pretty much going to be Will Smith's Deadshot vs Leto's Joker with Harley in the middle.


Will Smith is Deadshot? Even if we forgo the usual race bending debate, Will Smith? I mean, I like him and all, but as Deadshot?

----------


## Sterling

> Will Smith is Deadshot? Even if we forgo the usual race bending debate, Will Smith? I mean, I like him and all, but as Deadshot?


Did you actually not know this before today?

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I certainly hope not. A cameo wouldn't be too bad..like in the animated feature. Let the SS member be the main characters.
> 
> I doubt whether they would do a Bats sequel with Joker as the villain immediately..perhaps in 2020 or something...Sequel/prequel to a solo Bats film. So, they might just give him a bigger appearance in SS as the villain. Who knows?


Part of the rumor is that Joker will have a main role but he won't appear outside of his cell. Oh and Waller wants to take down Batman, apparently that's the Squad's ultimate goal.

Here's where I heard all this: http://geektyrant.com/news/spoilery-...e-squad-emerge

*spoilers:*
Deadshot and Harley Quinn meet early when Deadshot is assassinating an inmate that is being transported from Arkham. Quinn disrupts the hit when she tries to break Joker out and both are captured and taken to Amanda Waller's prison.
Waller has Joker moved to the prison as a means to keep Quinn in check. He spends most of the film in a cell, very much like Hannibal Lecter, until he breaks out in the end. 
Boomerang is already in the Squad and there is a contention between he and Deadshot, Deadshot killed his father.
The team is tasked on a mission to prevent 'bio weaponry' from being sold to Lex Luthor by a human trafficking gang. The gang is handing over the Enchantress to Luthor who it is implied wants her for magical abilities. They kidnap her and take her back to the prison where she is kept in an underground area, which has all sorts of genetic freaks imprisoned including a King Shark.
Rick Flag is there as a watchdog over Waller. The twist is his character is revealed as being in league with the villain, Rick Flag Snr at the end. (This is what I believe may have been the reason Hardy left) It is out of left field. They want the weapons that Waller has amassed.
There is a lot of action in the script but it primarily deals with Deadshot, Harley Quinn and the Joker. Flag is more of a government agent than anything else before his reveal as a villain.
*end of spoilers*


Keep in mind this stuff comes from Latino Review so it shouldn't be taken seriously, that's if it's remotely true at all. Some things seem to make sense though.

----------


## Vakanai

> Did you actually not know this before today?


Haven't been paying attention too much. Is it that hard to believe?

Will Smith as Deadshot seems odd. Hell, he'd make more sense to me as Deadpool than Deadshot.
Then again I've watched absolutely none of his serious roles.
Any info on what they plan for the character?

----------


## Hawkman

> Haven't been paying attention too much. Is it that hard to believe?
> 
> Will Smith as Deadshot seems odd. Hell, he'd make more sense to me as Deadpool than Deadshot.
> Then again I've watched absolutely none of his serious roles.
> Any info on what they plan for the character?


Nothing yet, I don't think, but the tone of the film is said to be in line with Nolan's Batman films.  So I'd expect the portrayal to be fairly dark.

----------


## Vakanai

> Nothing yet, I don't think, but the tone of the film is said to be in line with Nolan's Batman films.  So I'd expect the portrayal to be fairly dark.


Their Superman was in line with Nolan's Batman films, I expect every DC film this decade to be TDK-ish. And even if it isn't, they'll still say it is in everything leading up to it. Has any of Smith's more serious movies shown him acting like you'd think would be Deadshot-ish? I might want to check them out.

----------


## JaggedFel

Wait what Rick Flag is suppose to keep Waller in line? Say what.

----------


## Triple J

*Chase Kusero, Jared Leto's official hairdresser, posted this earlier!*

----------


## GrandKaiser

> *Chase Kusero, Jared Leto's official hairdresser, posted this earlier!*


Woooo!!!! I wonder how this is going to work. Is he going to keep his hair green until he's done shooting the film?

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> Woooo!!!! I wonder how this is going to work. Is he going to keep his hair green until he's done shooting the film?


Leto _is_ a Method actor

----------


## Clark_Kent

By the time SS comes out, this won't be culturally relevant anymore, but I woulda gotten a kick out of a poster with Joker standing in his cell, facing the wall (away from the camera), with the tagline "Mistah J Will See You Now".

----------


## Beantownbrown

Jared Leto Plans To Make His Joker In Suicide Squad The Best One Yet




> Jared has big shoes to fill as the new Joker in the upcoming flick, Suicide Squad! However, the actor is confident that his version of the famous villain will be the best yet, and HollywoodLife.com can EXCLUSIVELY tell you why he thinks so.
> 
> Jared Leto is taking his hot new role as the Joker in Suicide Squad very seriously! Knowing it might be his most difficult role ever, he of course has a plan to really make this a character fans will love. He already cut his long locks for the role, and HollywoodLife.com has learned EXCLUSIVELY how else hes gearing up to make his Joker a winning role!
> 
> Jared wants to make sure his Joker is not only something the fans will love, but he doesnt want to step on the toes of Jack Nicholson or Heath Ledger, an insider tells HollywoodLife.com.
> 
> He wants to make the character completely his own, our source continues. He knows that this role may be his most difficult ever, but he is confident that he will make his version of the Joker the best. This Joker will be more cerebral and comedic than what we have seen before, nobody should expect a copycat version. Its going to be awesome!


http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/03/02/...de-squad-role/

----------


## Rogue Star

Let's see if he can beat Mark Hamill's laugh.

----------


## Black_Adam

Its time. I believe in Jared Leto.  :Cool:

----------


## Nite-Wing

Well Jared Leto has the look but it'll be interesting to see how he plays him. I know a lot of people are going to be expected Heath Ledger quality

----------


## nightrider

> Leto _is_ a Method actor


I feel the same. I think we'll be in for a treat with Leto as joker. Now I'm just patiently waiting for new batman and superman solos to be out.

----------


## nightw1ng

This graphic Google posted on their twitter made me laugh at how ridiculous the interests of the general public really are.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> This graphic Google posted on their twitter made me laugh at how ridiculous the interests of the general public really are.


I'm sure Jared will one day reach that peak of public interest.

----------


## Starter Set

The world is anxiously waiting.

----------


## Rogue Star

That's a depressing graphic.

----------


## Triple J

*Another photo posted by Jared*

----------


## silly

> This graphic Google posted on their twitter made me laugh at how ridiculous the interests of the general public really are.


the graph may reach higher numbers if kim kardashian played the joker.

----------


## Triple J

*Leto on Instagram - "Ghost"*



https://instagram.com/p/z8EYxOTBbq/

----------


## Starter Set

If they ever make a Buffy reboot that's Spike right there.

----------


## Punisher007

Or Billy Idol in a potential biopic.

----------


## themiddle

have you guys seen the movie "powder"? it was in the 90's i think.

----------


## Starter Set

Wasn't the dude bald?

----------


## themiddle

> Wasn't the dude bald?


oh wait, yeah, i think he was hairless. i have lousy memory.

----------


## Mister Ferro

Remember that time not so long ago where people were shitting on WB/DCE for releasing the movie slate to their shareholders first and not to us the fans?

Marvel Studios shareholders remember.

How I hate revisionist history.

James Gunn Says Marvel Studios Will NOT Attend SDCC This Year

It seems that Marvel Studios are taking plays out of the Microsoft Xbone playbook.

I expect that it will come back and bite them in the ass as it did to Microsoft at E3 2 years ago. And just like Sony, I expect WB/DCE to come out swinging for the Moon.

----------


## Triple J

> Remember that time not so long ago where people were shitting on WB/DCE for releasing the movie slate to their shareholders first and not to us the fans?
> 
> Marvel Studios shareholders remember.
> 
> How I hate revisionist history.
> 
> James Gunn Says Marvel Studios Will NOT Attend SDCC This Year
> 
> It seems that Marvel Studios are taking plays out of the Microsoft Xbone playbook.
> ...


I see a lot of 'fans' saying that no one is going to be at Comic-con this year, since Marvel isn't going to be there.

Huh..I thought Comic-con was about comics?

----------


## krazijoe

> I see a lot of 'fans' saying that no one is going to be at Comic-con this year, since Marvel isn't going to be there.
> 
> Huh..I thought Comic-con was about comics?


They changed their name to Popculture-Con about 10 - 15 years ago. It hasn't been about comics in a LONG time.

----------


## Pinsir

Don't worry brothers...DC is on the cusp of victory! Glory to DC!

----------


## Beantownbrown

Jai Courtney talks a little bit about Suicide Squad

----------


## GrandKaiser

Lol it's always the same guy asking about Suicide Squad.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> They changed their name to Popculture-Con about 10 - 15 years ago. It hasn't been about comics in a LONG time.


Most large conventions are like this now tbh.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Remember that time not so long ago where people were shitting on WB/DCE for releasing the movie slate to their shareholders first and not to us the fans?
> 
> Marvel Studios shareholders remember.
> 
> How I hate revisionist history.
> 
> James Gunn Says Marvel Studios Will NOT Attend SDCC This Year
> 
> It seems that Marvel Studios are taking plays out of the Microsoft Xbone playbook.
> ...


I don't (edit: think) Marvel has much to show this year.  Why not skip?   :Confused:

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I don't (edit: think) Marvel has much to show this year.  Why not skip?


They don't. I'm pretty sure Ant-Man will already be released by that time and after that there's nothing except AoS season 2, AKA Jessica Jones and Civil War. The last two can wait until NYCC if they get any coverage at all (though I'm pretty sure Jessica Jones will be at NYCC because they're really big on this "New York" stuff for the Netflix series) .

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> It seems that Marvel Studios are taking plays out of the Microsoft Xbone playbook.
> 
> I expect that it will come back and bite them in the ass as it did to Microsoft at E3 2 years ago. And just like Sony, I expect WB/DCE to come out swinging for the Moon.


I'm going to bet that Perlmutter's penny-pinching has something to do with this. 

This will be DC's first ComicCon as Best-coasters. They'll come in riding their longboards, with their nice tans and shell beads, brah.

----------


## Mister Ferro

Geoff Johns confirmed to cbr about what we all know yet people on here still will not believe:

*Johns:* We've got all these TV shows going; I'm shooting a couple new pilots this year, doing some more writing on the shows, obviously. Now our film slate's kicking off in a very, very big way. *We're prepping "Suicide Squad," "Wonder Woman," and "Batman v Superman" is in post.* It's been incredibly, incredibly busy.

----------


## Robotman

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...ds-deathstroke

----------


## Rogue Star

Deathstroke! There's no way I'm missing this movie now.

----------


## Robotman

I really hope he has gray/white hair and goatee. Really hate the de-aged Slade currently running around in the comics.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Had no idea Slade was de-aged in the comics. That sucks. I like the old and experienced Deathstroke.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Had no idea Slade was de-aged in the comics. That sucks. I like the old and experienced Deathstroke.


He is still just as experienced.  He was just actually deaged physically... he is still the same age.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> He is still just as experienced.  He was just actually deaged physically... he is still the same age.


My bad I should have elaborated on that. I meant the experienced look.

----------


## Triple J

> http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...ds-deathstroke


I am skeptical since I saw this rumor first on Latino review.

But, I hope it's one of those rumors that turn out to be true  :Big Grin:

----------


## Robotman

> He is still just as experienced.  He was just actually deaged physically... he is still the same age.


Actually in his fight with Batman he said his body and reflexes werent responding as well as they normally do. As if his younger body had "forgotten" everything he'd learned. So yeah, he's not the same Deathstroke now that he's young. 

Making him young is so stupid. Being a grizzled veteran is part of the character. It would be like de-aging Wolverine. Some characters work better as older guys.

----------


## upgrayedd

> Actually in his fight with Batman he said his body and reflexes werent responding as well as they normally do. As if his younger body had "forgotten" everything he'd learned. So yeah, he's not the same Deathstroke now that he's young. 
> 
> Making him young is so stupid. Being a grizzled veteran is part of the character. It would be like de-aging Wolverine. Some characters work better as older guys.


 in my opinion, it seems like there is no country for old men in the new 52

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Actually in his fight with Batman he said his body and reflexes werent responding as well as they normally do. As if his younger body had "forgotten" everything he'd learned. So yeah, he's not the same Deathstroke now that he's young. 
> 
> Making him young is so stupid. Being a grizzled veteran is part of the character. It would be like de-aging Wolverine. Some characters work better as older guys.


Haha.  Thanks... I guess I forgot that I am only onto Deathstroke issue #2.  Shows what I know!  Haha.

----------


## Jabare

http://dccomicsmovie.com/?s=ray+fisher




> Ray Fisher speaks out about his role as Victor Stone and how it feels to be the first cinematic interpretation of the character and how excited he is for the role.
> 
> While discussing all this he may have let slip that Justice League will be written by Chris Terrio, who wrote Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice  (based on a story by Zack Snyder and David S Goyer).
> 
> This makes sense as Chris Terrio is essentially taking over for Goyer as he has put his attention on the Constantine and Krypton television series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




so confirmation

-as of now Chris Terrio is writing the script, not David Goyer. Makes sense.
-THERE IS CONCEPT ART (squeal!) 
- and I find this quote very interesting



> We have the new 52’s, where Cyborg actually becomes a part of the Justice League when in the past he was just a part of Teen Titans, but things may change for the sake of the film so that it’ll all make sense.


what does this mean? is this nothing or something?

but more importantly let me see the concept art DC let me see it. I won't tell a soul, but I'll be honest with you. I'm like that good friend who can be painfully honest about a new haircut or dress. I'm only thinking about what's best for you.

----------


## Rogue Star

I think it means that his history with the Teen Titans will be dropped.

----------


## Triple J

Interesting. Thanks for the scoop, Jabare  :Big Grin: 

Okay, waiting for Snyder to post that Cyborg pic...any day now!

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...ds-deathstroke


I hope this isn't true. While it makes sense for WB to try and capitalize on Deathstroke's (realtive) push in popularity from Arrow and the Arkham-games, I think he goes against some of the Suicide Squad concept's main strengths. Besides, it's not like this movie needs any more characters at this point.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I hope this isn't true. While it makes sense for WB to try and capitalize on Deathstroke's (realtive) push in popularity from Arrow and the Arkham-games, I think he goes against some of the Suicide Squad concept's main strengths. Besides, it's not like this movie needs any more characters at this point.


If the film does take place inside a prison most of the time, then I wouldn't mind Slade being in it. But I don't think he should be a member of the Squad.

----------


## Robotman

> I hope this isn't true. While it makes sense for WB to try and capitalize on Deathstroke's (realtive) push in popularity from Arrow and the Arkham-games, I think he goes against some of the Suicide Squad concept's main strengths. Besides, it's not like this movie needs any more characters at this point.


But it doesn't seem like Slade is actaully on the team. Waller hired him to protect her. If the price was right I can definitely see Deathstroke taking the job.

----------


## Black_Adam

> #DEATHSTROKE IN #SUICIDESQUAD! Deathstroke works with/for #ONSLAUGHT & does their dirty work. *He's a hired assassin and he doesn't have any powers like in the comic book. They're going for a pre-super villain Deathstroke. He's a huge part of both of the major set pieces of the film.* His introduction is INSANE! *He's badass & almost takes the team down on one mission single handed. Deathstroke has THE breakout & choicest role in the film*. The running gun battle that sources are describing is something else. His suit is very stealth oriented. They used an actual US military tactical outfit for the basis. He's armed to the teeth, uses a sword and automatics. *In concept artwork he has two eyes. The mask is there and it's the iconic one*.  Rumor about Jason Clarke still in play is not true because he originally got offered Deathstroke months ago but has a scheduling conflict with Marc Foster's' 'All I See Is You.' Joel Kinnaman originally tested for the role as well but got Rick Flagg instead. Joe Manganiello has a scheduling conflict with Ryan Murphy's 'Scream Queens' BUT HE JUST DROPPED OUT! What does that mean? Deathstroke is 'probably' his.


http://www.latino-review.com/news/de...-suicide-squad

So it seems like he will be more Slade Wilson/Proto-Deathstroke and possibly get the powers later, but sounds good to me, I can't think of a more badass way to introduce him to the DC Cinematic Universe than show him nearly taking down the entire squad single handedly!

----------


## Robotman

> http://www.latino-review.com/news/de...-suicide-squad
> 
> So it seems like he will be more Slade Wilson/Proto-Deathstroke and possibly get the powers later, but sounds good to me, I can't think of a more badass way to introduce him to the DC Cinematic Universe than show him nearly taking down the entire squad single handedly!


Wow that's incredibly exciting! Slade has always been one of favorites. Glad it sounds like they're gonna make him a true badass. I wonder if they're gonna save the super soldier transformation for his possible solo film. I hope he lose his eye and gets his classic look by the end of this flick.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I hope this isn't true. While it makes sense for WB to try and capitalize on Deathstroke's (realtive) push in popularity from Arrow and the Arkham-games, I think he goes against some of the Suicide Squad concept's main strengths. Besides, it's not like this movie needs any more characters at this point.


Deathstroke was the only reason I started watching Arrow, and when he disappeared I followed. lol





> Wow that's incredibly exciting! Slade has always been one of favorites. Glad it sounds like they're gonna make him a true badass. I wonder if they're gonna save the super soldier transformation for his possible solo film. I hope he lose his eye and gets his classic look by the end of this flick.


It seems like the only reason to bring him in sans iconic traits is to build him up for a solo movie. They might want to counter Deadpool before he becomes too popular among the general public.

----------


## Robotman

> It seems like the only reason to bring him in sans iconic traits is to build him up for a solo movie. They might want to counter Deadpool before he becomes too popular among the general public.


Yeah it seems DCE is making an effort to counter Marvel before they unveil characters that were originally knock offs of DC characters. I don't think they want to have another Darkseid/Thanos situation. 
They've been promoting Deathstroke over the last couple of years so Deadpool doesn't get all the attention and now Supergirl is gonna use the Danvers last name again. There were rumors that the Flash show got a quick green light once word that Quicksilver would be appearing in X Men: DoFP and Age of Ultron.

----------


## Rogue Star

And it seems like it took a kick in the butt from Marvel to make these things happen.  As much as some people make Marvel out to be the bad guy in situations like with Darkseid and Thanos, DC let it get to this point in the first place.

----------


## Robotman

> And it seems like it took a kick in the butt from Marvel to make these things happen.  As much as some people make Marvel out to be the bad guy in situations like with Darkseid and Thanos, DC let it get to this point in the first place.


Absolutely. It's DC/WB fault for taking so long to get these characters out there.

----------


## Black_Adam

I don't think WB are too worried with what Fox do with Deadpool.... The Darkseid/Thanos concern is because they are, tonally, very similar characters, inheriting the same space "evil intergalactic despots" etc.

Yes Slade and Wade have a similar name and are both basically mercenary ninjas but tonally, Deadool and Deathstroke are worlds apart, the Deadpool movie is supposedly going to be crazy over the top, 4th wall breaking, fun. That is nothing like Deathstroke. Besides Fox's individual X movies haven't exactly been runaway hits... The Wolverine movies I guess you could qualify as successful albeit not overly so.

If WB have plans for Slade it isn't like they just popped out over night, the last few years have seen a noticeable push with the character from his main antagonist roles on Arrow and Beware the Batman, to key appearances on Young Justice to games like Arkham Origins and Injustice.

Anyway I personally don't see them prepping him for a solo movie, but perhaps appearing in another DCU movie possibly a Squad sequel or the individual Batman or Flash movies.

----------


## MadFacedKid

4446728-9801182568-10986.jpg


This looks abit reminiscent.

----------


## Triple J

> I don't think WB are too worried with what Fox do with Deadpool.... The Darkseid/Thanos concern is because they are, tonally, very similar characters, inheriting the same space "evil intergalactic despots" etc.
> 
> Yes Slade and Wade have a similar name and are both basically mercenary ninjas but tonally, Deadool and Deathstroke are worlds apart, the Deadpool movie is supposedly going to be crazy over the top, 4th wall breaking, fun. That is nothing like Deathstroke. Besides Fox's individual X movies haven't exactly been runaway hits... The Wolverine movies I guess you could qualify as successful albeit not overly so.
> 
> If WB have plans for Slade it isn't like they just popped out over night, the last few years have seen a noticeable push with the character from his main antagonist roles on Arrow and Beware the Batman, to key appearances on Young Justice to games like Arkham Origins and Injustice.
> 
> Anyway I personally don't see them prepping him for a solo movie, but perhaps appearing in another DCU movie possibly a Squad sequel or the individual Batman or Flash movies.


That's what I think too.

Considering that this was posted by Latino review, the chances of it being true is really small....but, there is a chance. Perhaps the rumor could be partially true? Deathstroke is indeed making an appearance, but it will be a quick one (one scene or something?).

I think an excellent way to introduce a lot of characters (and build the universe fast) is to name drop them into different movies.

Batman could be mentioning several of them (like they escaped Blackgate/Belle Reve) to the 'family' or maybe just to Alfred. Barry learning about a few of them on his desk job (assuming movie version is Barry).

----------


## NeoStar9X

> And it seems like it took a kick in the butt from Marvel to make these things happen.  As much as some people make Marvel out to be the bad guy in situations like with Darkseid and Thanos, DC let it get to this point in the first place.


That and a change of leadership. WB's new CEO Kevin Tsujihara took over in early 2013 and that is when things really seem to start moving instead of moving at the snail's pace it was before.

----------


## Triple J

*Deathstroke's Role in SS*



Note: Keep in mind; these are just rumors, take it with a grain of salt.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Two eyes? How come every time Deathstroke appears in some form of media they always have to retell how he loses his eye? Arrow, Beware the Batman, Son of Batman, and now this? Lame.

----------


## Robotman

> *Deathstroke's Role in SS*
> 
> 
> 
> Note: Keep in mind; these are just rumors, take it with a grain of salt.


I so hope these rumors are true! I would love to see a super badass Deathstroke on the big screen. Maybe something will happen to him by the end of the film which causes him to lose his eye and possibly nearly die. Then Waller could use the experimental super soldier serum in order to save him. 
Glad they aren't looking at any young actors to play Slade. He needs to be a seasoned veteran warrior.

----------


## BrotherMeh

> Two eyes? How come every time Deathstroke appears in some form of media they always have to retell how he loses his eye? Arrow, Beware the Batman, Son of Batman, and now this? Lame.


Probably because its an iconic part of the character, and you mentioned 4 different universes who combined will not have the viewership of the big screen movie.

----------


## Triple J

WonderCon '15 Schedule

*Warner Bros. Presentation*
TBA
Saturday April 4, 2015 12:30pm – 1:30pm 
Arena

That's an entire hour! Hmm, I wonder what it could be!

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Probably because its an iconic part of the character, and you mentioned 4 different universes who combined will not have the viewership of the big screen movie.


That's not what I mean. I just feel like every inclusion of Deathstroke in a film has to feature him losing his eye. It's almost like those are the only stories we can tell with the guy. We don't need to see that happen in everything he appears in.

----------


## themiddle

> I so hope these rumors are true! I would love to see a super badass Deathstroke on the big screen. Maybe something will happen to him by the end of the film which causes him to lose his eye and possibly nearly die. Then Waller could use the experimental super soldier serum in order to save him. 
> Glad they aren't looking at any young actors to play Slade. He needs to be a seasoned veteran warrior.


i don't favor a de-aged deathstroke as well. i think it's part of the characters lore that he has honed his skills due to his years in operation.

----------


## Black_Adam

> WonderCon '15 Schedule
> 
> *Warner Bros. Presentation*
> TBA
> Saturday April 4, 2015 12:30pm – 1:30pm 
> Arena
> 
> That's an entire hour! Hmm, I wonder what it could be!


Hopefully a trailer and a panel with the entire cast including Momoa, Fisher and Miller? (not sure if he is in BvS or not), would be cool to see them all together.

But Snyder will probably troll us with a new logo and thats it lol.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Hopefully a trailer and a panel with the entire cast including Momoa, Fisher and Miller? (not sure if he is in BvS or not), would be cool to see them all together.
> 
> But Snyder will probably troll us with a new logo and thats it lol.


There is the rumor that Flash appears briefly in BvS.  However Miller has stated that he hasn't even started training for his Flash role.  This makes me think that either Flash isn't in BvS or that his image is CG in the movie.

----------


## Triple J

Jai Courtney on SS




> I’ve had a few fittings, but the costume is in development as we speak. It’s not going to look like anything that’s been done before, and I think this whole world will look a lot different than anything else.
> 
> David Ayer is developing a great voice, and it’s interesting to see his first foray into this type of genre, where he isn’t grounded in reality. The biggest draw to this project was being able to work with him. I talked to a lot of the guys who were in Fury and his process just fascinated me. He sounds like a demanding director but he’ll always be there for his cast if they’re putting in the work for him. I’ve been training since before Christmas for the role and I’m really looking forward to it. We’ve been meeting to go over fighting and weapon work. Seeing the cast in Toronto in a couple of weeks will be really cool.


Source: http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/...inator-genisys

----------


## Robotman

> Jai Courtney on SS
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/...inator-genisys


Well I really wasn't expecting them to go with the traditional Captain Boomerang hat and scarf look.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Potential good news UK fans! We get BvS a month early!!!!!!!!!! Feb 25th  :Big Grin: 

http://www.cineworld.co.uk/whatson/b...awn-of-justice

----------


## Rogue Star

Wow. That's really early.  Now March actually feels like a longer wait.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Potential good news UK fans! We get BvS a month early!!!!!!!!!! Feb 25th 
> 
> http://www.cineworld.co.uk/whatson/b...awn-of-justice


How lovely. I think I'll go to the midnight screening. I couldn't _possibly_ wait till the evening the next day.

----------


## Robotman

> Potential good news UK fans! We get BvS a month early!!!!!!!!!! Feb 25th 
> 
> http://www.cineworld.co.uk/whatson/b...awn-of-justice


Damn it's gonna be even more difficult to avoid spoilers.

----------


## Rogue Star

> 


I got a good laugh from this one!  XD

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I got a good laugh from this one!  XD


LOL!

But? Heeeeey! They left out Wonder Woman! Grrrr!

----------


## Rogue Star

Also Cyborg and Shazam but... we got the point. lol

----------


## Triple J

Black Adam may join the JL




> *IGN: We are so excited to see Black Adam as this anti-hero imagining there's going to be this antagonistic relationship with Shazam, but I'm wondering, are you interested in exploring his heroic side down the line. Do you think that he could eventually join the Justice League?*
> 
> Dwyane 'The Rock' Johnson: I think so, and I think you always want to leave that creatively open, that he could join the Justice League and I think... that's the fun part of creating this character right now and everybody involved, from the studio, from New Line, to Warner Bros as well, to the writer, our producing partners. You want to... you definitely want to engage in his heroic side, but that has to be earned and with the mythology of Black Adam starting off as a slave, because when you start off as a slave, just inherently, there's things in your DNA that piss you off. And that's the bottomline, so I think we have to respect and pay homage to the true mythology and then the heroic side will come down the line, but I think it's important and we all feel it's important and I believe the fans at IGN feel it's important to make sure the homage is paid at the beginning because then you have a stronger foundation to stand on, and so he will become an anti-hero, but at first... daddy's got to go to work.


Source: http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/03/20..._medium=social


I think they were referring to joining the team, rather than the movie. That's the vibe I am getting from this interview. What do you guys think?

----------


## Frontier

Eh...I'd rather see Billy/Shazam join before Black Adam does, but that's just me  :Smile: .

----------


## The Kid

It'd be sick if the Rock could play Shazam and Black Adam but I doubt they go in that direction

----------


## Black_Adam

> Black Adam may join the JL
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/03/20..._medium=social
> 
> 
> I think they were referring to joining the team, rather than the movie. That's the vibe I am getting from this interview. What do you guys think?


I don't think I will-I mean Teth-Adam  :Stick Out Tongue:  will join the Justice League officially... He will probably ally with them against a greater threat, he hates tyrants and any threat to the world (and thereby Khandaq) is one he will fight, so if Brainiac or Darkseid end up being the villain I could very easily see him siding with the JL because of their mutual goals.

I think it is a certainty Adam will be in the Justice League movies in some capacity, Rock is too big a name to leave out of WB's crown jewel so to speak.

----------


## Robotman

> I don't think I will-I mean Teth-Adam  will join the Justice League officially... He will probably ally with them against a greater threat, he hates tyrants and any threat to the world (and thereby Khandaq) is one he will fight, so if Brainiac or Darkseid end up being the villain I could very easily see him siding with the JL because of their mutual goals.
> 
> I think it is a certainty Adam will be in the Justice League movies in some capacity, Rock is too big a name to leave out of WB's crown jewel so to speak.


Man that would be so awesome to see The Rock's Black Adam standing next to the other members of the League. Of course a Superman vs Black Adam fight on the big screen would be a fanboy dream come true.

----------


## Robotman

People complaining about the casting of Affleck and Gadot, fans upset that Ezra Miller will be The Flash instead of the tv Flash Grant Gustin, and of course Mamoa's Aquaman pic generated a fair share of bitching. It really seems like casting The Rock as Black Adam has been the first casting of a DC character to garner overwhelmingly positive responses from fans. 
WB should use his charisma as much as possible. Include Black Adam in the long term plans of the DC cinematic universe.

----------


## nightrider

All I can say is haters gonna hate. All of DC's icons are so much bigger than Marvel's one such that its impossible to have everyone agreeing with all the casting decisions. Theres a number of people who wants MMA fighter Gina Carano to be casted as WW but there is going to be people out there saying shes too beefy. You can't satisfy everyone when it comes to DC's iconic characters.

----------


## Triple J

Interview with Gal Gadot [Translated]




> When she got the official notice she got Wonder Woman she was in the clouds. Literarily. She was on her way to a job in New York waiting for the answer.
> 
> Gal: I never had to wait so long for a reply. It was a month and a half of torture. It was a crazy roller-coaster. I couldnt talk about it to anyone. On the day they promised a reply I was flying to NY for another gig. When the plane landed I saw I had a lot of missed calls. I called my agent still sitting in the plane with the belt on. She told me  Congratulations! You got the part. During the flight I set next to a really nice man. A scientist from The Weizmann Institute of Science. He talked the entire flight about quantum physics. Now, imagine me, sitting on the plane, looking for a little piece of privacy, burring my head between my legs and starting to scream Oh my god! again and again, because I just cant believe it. Then I hang up the phone and he looks at me like what just happened? and asks if everything is alright. I tell him  I cant really say anything but you will probably read about it tomorrow in the paper.'
> 
> Preparations for the role took many months during which she worked with a personal trainer that taught her everything a super heroine needs to know in order to take down villains.
> 
> Gal: It was very intensive. When I was young I was a real tomboy so I really enjoyed the experience. I see Alma wanting to dress like a princess and put on lipstick and it surprises me. I asked my mom if I was like that too but she said all I wanted back then was to play ball, sweat, and scrape my knees.
> 
> *Interviewer: When your casting was announced a lot of comic book nerds said that your body didnt match Wonder Womans.*
> ...


Source: http://www.superherohype.com/news/33...man-v-superman

----------


## Triple J

> People complaining about the casting of Affleck and Gadot, fans upset that Ezra Miller will be The Flash instead of the tv Flash Grant Gustin, and of course Mamoa's Aquaman pic generated a fair share of bitching. It really seems like casting The Rock as Black Adam has been the first casting of a DC character to garner overwhelmingly positive responses from fans. 
> WB should use his charisma as much as possible. Include Black Adam in the long term plans of the DC cinematic universe.


Well, there are lot of fans who do like Affleck and don't mind Miller (Anyways, I do remember seeing lot of fans complaining about Gustin being cast as Flash - too skinny, too young).

Now, they want him in the cinematic universe? Yeah, it's better not to take opinions to face value. Some of us act like we know better than the people who are hired to be casting directors.

----------


## GrandKaiser

She seems to be very well spoken, funny, and knowledgeable about Wonder Woman. Can't wait to see her in BvS!

----------


## golgi

> People complaining about the casting of Affleck and Gadot, fans upset that Ezra Miller will be The Flash instead of the tv Flash Grant Gustin, and of course Mamoa's Aquaman pic generated a fair share of bitching. It really seems like casting The Rock as Black Adam has been the first casting of a DC character to garner overwhelmingly positive responses from fans. 
> WB should use his charisma as much as possible. Include Black Adam in the long term plans of the DC cinematic universe.


People bitch about everything. Ever since Michael Keaton playes Batman to Heath as the Joker. Doesnt say how good or bad the performances will be. So far Jason Momoa has had overall tremendous positive buzz. Same when people finally saw Ben in the Bat costume.

----------


## Triple J

Tease on Joker's voice?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=862436927149788

The post does mention Ben's Batman voice (I honestly didn't see it; just think it was a random interview). But, Leto's voice sounds awesome - perhaps a tease?

----------


## GrandKaiser

Yeah that's definitely not Ben's Batman voice. But hell, if that's Jared's Joker voice then I am in COMPLETE support of him in the role! That sounded awesome!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Interview with Gal Gadot [Translated]
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.superherohype.com/news/33...man-v-superman


I just hope that statement that she can "practically" fly is just Gal playing a little coy with us. I, for one, want her to be the first flying female superhero in movies in years. No damn plane, thank you very much!

Everything else, however, sounds great! I'm glad to see Gal doesn't let all her critics bother her. She's got the attitude to play this role. Now, I just want to see her knock this thing out of the park.

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe the movie Wonder Woman will not fly but do flips like Xena.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Maybe the movie Wonder Woman will not fly but do flips like Xena.


Since Xena doesn't have any super powers, Wondy should do a helluva lot more than that.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Maybe the movie Wonder Woman will not fly but do flips like Xena.


Yeah. Bare minimum, I want her super-jumping or doing "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon"-style leaps.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Maybe Superman carries her

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe dc needs to sell wonder planes so the movie wonder woman should not fly on her own.

----------


## beetle_booster

> People complaining about the casting of Affleck and Gadot, fans upset that Ezra Miller will be The Flash instead of the tv Flash Grant Gustin, and of course Mamoa's Aquaman pic generated a fair share of bitching. It really seems like casting The Rock as Black Adam has been the first casting of a DC character to garner overwhelmingly positive responses from fans. 
> *WB should use his charisma as much as possible. Include Black Adam in the long term plans of the DC cinematic universe*.


No. They shouldn't base their casting on the bitching of people who hasn't seen a single second of the movie.  They shouldn't cast actors with the objective of minimizing the howling of whiny haters.

They should cast according to what their vision is for their movie.  They're professionals and they know what they want for their movie.  

None of the haters have seen the audition tapes of Gadot, Affleck, Miller or Mamoa.    So yeah, they don't know what they're talking about.  They think they do because that's their thing. They want to think that the writers, directors, producers, etc of the movie are all dumb and that they know more a about making a proper movie than them.  But really, they don't know shit.

----------


## Pinsir

Daily reminder that this movie will have a metatheme about reconciliation in Palestine.

----------


## JaggedFel

> People complaining about the casting of Affleck and Gadot, fans upset that Ezra Miller will be The Flash instead of the tv Flash Grant Gustin, and of course Mamoa's Aquaman pic generated a fair share of bitching. It really seems like casting The Rock as Black Adam has been the first casting of a DC character to garner overwhelmingly positive responses from fans. 
> WB should use his charisma as much as possible. Include Black Adam in the long term plans of the DC cinematic universe.


Well its mostly like this.

Affleck? A lot of pre existing bias
Gal and Miller who the frak are those two. 
Mamoa. well he looked great on GoT I guess.
The Rock is the Rock though.

----------


## Last Son of San Jose

http://heroicuniverse.com/batman-v-s...out-this-year/

BvS crew member says the movie IS coming out this year.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> http://heroicuniverse.com/batman-v-s...out-this-year/
> 
> BvS crew member says the movie IS coming out this year.


Sorry but that is doubtful. They would need to start promoting it *NOW*. And when would it come out? December? With Star Wars and James Bond? Yeah I'm not buying it.

Also Henry Cavil flat out denied the two parter thing. That isn't happening. This sounds like bull.

----------


## Last Son of San Jose

> Sorry but that is doubtful. They would need to start promoting it *NOW*. And when would it come out? December? With Star Wars and James Bond? Yeah I'm not buying it.
> 
> Also Henry Cavil flat out denied the two parter thing. That isn't happening. This sounds like bull.


It would come out Oct. 23 and they'll start promoting at WonderCon. Actors lie all the time to protect secrecy.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> It would come out Oct. 23 and they'll start promoting at WonderCon. Actors lie all the time to protect secrecy.


Looks tasty man, but it needs better sauce (source) .

----------


## liwanag

i am so sorry, but i had no idea where to post this. made me laughed out loud:



loved the electric boogalo description

----------


## Robotman

Hah! Love the Batman v. Cyborg: Boyah Begins. 

I guess the joke is that DC needs Batman to prop up their other heroes. Of course The Flash show would have something to say about that.

----------


## golgi

> http://heroicuniverse.com/batman-v-s...out-this-year/
> 
> BvS crew member says the movie IS coming out this year.


Doubt it, but I wouldn't mind. I can't wait for this. Currently my #1 most anticipated super hero movie. This and Suicide Squad.

----------


## themiddle

> Hah! Love the Batman v. Cyborg: Boyah Begins. 
> 
> I guess the joke is that DC needs Batman to prop up their other heroes. Of course The Flash show would have something to say about that.


lol at booyah begins. i can clearly hear it in my head right this minute.

----------


## Triple J

Momoa on Aquaman




> "I'm in for the long haul," Momoa explained. "It's an honor. Zack [Snyder] had me at hello, literally when he told me what he wanted to do with the character and what he wanted to do with the world. There's no script written yet for certain things, but I listen to his ideas; I trust him."
> 
> "I'm known for playing rough characters and they're not really allowed to see those things, so it's going to be exciting for my kids to see poppa play with Batman and Wonder Woman and Superman and so on," he continued. "It's really cool that my kids can do that."



http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...man-v-superman



Johnson on Black Adam




> “No, we haven’t picked a Shazam yet,” Johnson continues, “and we have been working on the script. Half the scripts [have] already come in. Fantastic, very excited about it. And what I’m really excited about is — because, again, I’ve lived with this character, and this opportunity for almost 10 years now, so it’s like, in my DNA! I’m like a little kid, and it’s the opportunity to create his journey, but that journey has to start out properly… I can’t wait to share more casting news by the way.”


Source: http://www.superherohype.com/news/33...s-an-anti-hero

----------


## GrandKaiser

I don't understand why everyone's focused on who should play Shazam. Shazam/Captain Marvel is not important, he's just an avatar for Billy Batson. What they need to do is find a child actor, I'd say between 13-15 years of age and have that kid be himself and do all the screen tests then get an actor to be exactly like that kid. It wouldn't make any sense for them to cast an adult, have the adult act like a kid, then hire a kid to act like the adult acting like a kid. So yeah we should focus on who Billy Batson should be _then_ cast Shazam after that.

----------


## Black_Adam

> I don't understand why everyone's focused on who should play Shazam. Shazam/Captain Marvel is not important, he's just an avatar for Billy Batson.


That is exactly why he is so important, need to find an actor who looks like a big buff badass while at the same time can sell to the audience he is a 13yr old kid trapped in a man's body, convincingly. The guy who plays Shazam needs humour, wit, charisma and a tremendous physical presence.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Momoa on Aquaman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...man-v-superman


Here is the video, Aquaman is hereeee! Momoa is always a funny guy.

----------


## Robotman

Oh no he's gone all Johnny Depp.

----------


## Marvel_Is

> Oh no he's gone all Johnny Depp.


He knows he'll be getting those Johnny Depp cheques soon.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## GrandKaiser

> That is exactly why he is so important, need to find an actor who looks like a big buff badass while at the same time can sell to the audience he is a 13yr old kid trapped in a man's body, convincingly. The guy who plays Shazam needs humour, wit, charisma and a tremendous physical presence.


Did you read the rest of my post or only that first sentence?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Oh no he's gone all Johnny Depp.


He has always dressed like that.  Haha.

----------


## Blacksun

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/03/25...b52b38dba9466f

----------


## GrandKaiser

If that isn't Lex Luthor, I don't know who is.

----------


## Punisher007

He looks like a guy who will be talking to you while eating his dinner, then suddenly stab you in the head with a fork, and then go right back to eating his meal like nothing has happened.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> He looks like a guy who will be talking to you while eating his dinner, then suddenly stab you in the head with a fork, and then go right back to eating his meal like nothing has happened.


Didn't get enough quotes in the other thread?

----------


## Punisher007

Nope, not even close.  :Wink: 

Anyway It'll be interesting to see just how he's introduced.  After they teased him so much in MOS, I have to believe that there's a big plan for how to use his character.

----------


## Vakanai

> Nope, not even close. 
> 
> Anyway It'll be interesting to see just how he's introduced.  After they teased him so much in MOS, I have to believe that there's a big plan for how to use his character.


How was he teased in MOS again?

----------


## Triple J

Well, we can guess what route they will be taking...Obviously they are setting it up so that people blame Superman for what happened (we do have photo confirmation of people protesting against Superman).

How Lex and Bats plays into this is the real question. Will they (sort of) team up?

Or could Lex's involvement be the trigger for Bat's interest (He isn't generally interested in things outside of Gotham; but the events of MOS could change that).

Besides, who knows what kind of Batman we are going to get in this universe?

----------


## Vanguard-01

I like the look!

I was a bit concerned about Eisenberg's ability to look like Lex. That concern just died. I think he's going to be great.

----------


## DebkoX

He looks like a badass. Luthor = Confirmed.

----------


## themiddle

> If that isn't Lex Luthor, I don't know who is.


loos like he's wearing prison clothes

----------


## Robotman

> If that isn't Lex Luthor, I don't know who is.


Reminds me of this

----------


## bob fett

Guessing Waynetech,and Luthorcorp will be vying for the rights to rebuild Metropolis.That brings Bruce to Metropolis.It would please Bruce to no end to stick it to Luthor.I don't leave out Bruce flirting with Lois either,annoying Clark either.I would also like to see the Luthorcorp building shaped like an "L".

----------


## Clark_Kent

> How was he teased in MOS again?


 Clark hitches a ride to the Kent farm on a Lexcorp truck.

 Zod throws a Lexcorp tanker at Kal (Kal dodges). 

 Kal & Zod fight in a Lexcorp construction area (the building has a sign). 

 After fighting in space, Kal & Zod (and debris) fall to earth right past a Lexcorp building (here, the letters resemble Google, with each letter a different color, if I recall).

----------


## Robotman

I'm really looking forward to his take on Lex. Just from watching The Social Network you can see he's great at playing a young egotistical genius who thinks he's smarter than everyone in the room.

----------


## Angelo2113

> I'm really looking forward to his take on Lex. Just from watching The Social Network you can see he's great at playing a young egotistical genius who thinks he's smarter than everyone in the room.


I never watched that entire movie but I watched the "raining scene." Not sure what it's called but it was the scene where they were asking him a question and his mind was somewhere else. I was surprised how his delivery really, especially with his appearance, put the other people in the room in a sense of inadequacy.

I think the events of Man of Steel really highlighted Superman's physical attributes the most against Zod but Dawn of Justice is really going to highlight the moral and mental attributes the most against Luthor. Really looking forward to that confrontation and interaction.

----------


## Predator JP

he's gonna be a awesome Luther.

----------


## Black_Adam

http://www.latino-review.com/news/g9...kq6emha65n52ja

Rumours on Deadshot's look in Suicide Squad. Mask will be similar to Arkham City/Assault on Arkham, red targeting eye with the cut off mask showing his mouth, suit will be dark red with black, he will have body armour and the wrist guns (woop!).

So basically it will be his getup from the Arkham-verse, with hopefully a bit more red.

----------


## Triple J

*Colored version - Thanks to Scott Johnson (Marvel Artist)*

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> he's gonna be a awesome Luther.


Yeah, but has WB cast Otis yet?

 :Wink:

----------


## Vakanai

> • Clark hitches a ride to the Kent farm on a Lexcorp truck.
> 
> • Zod throws a Lexcorp tanker at Kal (Kal dodges). 
> 
> • Kal & Zod fight in a Lexcorp construction area (the building has a sign). 
> 
> • After fighting in space, Kal & Zod (and debris) fall to earth right past a Lexcorp building (here, the letters resemble Google, with each letter a different color, if I recall).


Oh I'm sorry, I thought you meant Aquaman was teased, I got confused.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

I'm not so excited for his Lex yet.  Have to hear his Lex voice and see a scene/trailer. 

I'd have preferred Rosenbaum.  I wish directors and WB were less concerned with strictly "making it their own" and more concerned with using the best (whether from prior show or not).

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I'd have preferred Rosenbaum.  I wish directors and WB were less concerned with strictly "making it their own" and more concerned with using the best (whether from prior show or not).


Did Rosenbaum even say he auditioned for the role? After doing it for 10 years he might've been a bit sick of playing Lex.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> http://www.latino-review.com/news/g9...kq6emha65n52ja
> 
> Rumours on Deadshot's look in Suicide Squad. Mask will be similar to Arkham City/Assault on Arkham, red targeting eye with the cut off mask showing his mouth, suit will be dark red with black, he will have body armour and the wrist guns (woop!).
> 
> So basically it will be his getup from the Arkham-verse, with hopefully a bit more red.


Yeah, I expected something like that. No way they were going to cover up Will Smith's face for the entire movie.

----------


## Triple J

> I'm not so excited for his Lex yet.  Have to hear his Lex voice and see a scene/trailer. 
> 
> I'd have preferred Rosenbaum.  I wish directors and WB were less concerned with strictly "making it their own" and more concerned with using the best (whether from prior show or not).


You do realize the problem with that, right?

How do we know who the best is without letting others try the role?

For that matter, if WB had just stuck to one actor for each of their superheroes, we would never have so many different movies/versions of these characters.

Eisenberg's Lex may become iconic - may become the best version of Lex ever in made in live action (or perhaps it may just end up disappointing). We will have to wait and see.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> Did Rosenbaum even say he auditioned for the role? After doing it for 10 years he might've been a bit sick of playing Lex.


He came out and said he'd love to land the role.  (paraphrasing)

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> How do we know who the best is without letting others try the role?


I think when a version works really well and is popular, that seems to not matter to the director or WB, I think that's my main concern moreso.  I don't want different actors just for the sake of different actors.

We shall see, I might eat my words eventually.  Or just believe them more.

----------


## DCFanSince88

> I'm not so excited for his Lex yet.  Have to hear his Lex voice and see a scene/trailer. 
> 
> I'd have preferred Rosenbaum.  I wish directors and WB were less concerned with strictly "making it their own" and more concerned with using the best (whether from prior show or not).


Meh. Rosenbaum was okay in a show where okay was the norm. This is a whole 'nother level here. With Eisenburg you have another Oscar-nominated actor who has shown the range to play LL. Most everyone would take that over a Teen Choice Award nominee.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Meh. Rosenbaum was okay in a show where okay was the norm. This is a whole 'nother level here. With Eisenburg you have another Oscar-nominated actor who has shown the range to play LL. Most everyone would take that over a Teen Choice Award nominee.


I agree. I liked Rosenbaum's interpretation, but he is really not in Eisenberg's league as an actor.

----------


## The Kid

Eh I'm still not sure of Eisenburg. Yeah, he got nominated for an Oscar but he played that role like he usually does his others, just with more nuance. I've never seen the guy play anyone other than quiet, stuttering nerd. Sure, he might be good but I can't imagine this dude as a badass

Superman: "It's over Luthor'
Lex: "H..Hi Superman"
Batman: "This guy's your archenemy?"

This is just my preliminary thoughts though. I'll be happy to be proven wrong

----------


## Kid A

In hindsight, Rosenbaum's Luthor only seemed good because the rest of the acting/writing on the show was bad.   Rosenbaum himself is a decent actor, but a lot of those Lex scenes in Smallville were hilariously overwritten and tried too hard to develop moral nuance in the least subtle way possible.  We won't know until the movie is out, but I think Eisenberg has potential to be better.  

Only concern I have is his voice.  They should try to make him sound somewhat intimidating, and not some college punk.

----------


## Sterling

> Only concern I have is his *voice.*  They should try to make him sound somewhat intimidating, and not some college punk.


Yup that's my concern too.

----------


## silly

the voice can probably be worked with. sharlto copley sounded like a high pitched frenchman in elysium but i appreciated his character portrayal.

----------


## Clark_Kent

They should release the first teaser trailer on April 1st. Everyone would think it were a joke, but that would be the joke

Might help curb all of the "WB confirms BvS WILL be 2 films!" headlines that will inevitably come out that day (and that people will inevitably believe).

----------


## godisawesome

> the voice can probably be worked with. sharlto copley sounded like a high pitched frenchman in elysium but i appreciated his character portrayal.


And everyone was mocking Bane's voice until they heard more than 30 seconds of it and realized it didn't matter how Hardy sounded, he was still making Bane terrifying, and the voice wound up just becoming an iconic part of his performance.

----------


## Angelo2113

Anybody read Superman: Earth One Volume 3? It involved quite a lot of consequences from the two previous volumes that I'm hoping Batman v. Superman will accomplish from Man of Steel.

----------


## Triple J

Had to share this!

Awesome fan design.

----------


## Triple J

Ayer on Twitter:




> Set dec. Every detail matters #SuicideSquad

----------


## Nite-Wing

So I guess that confirms arkham asylum exists

----------


## Beantownbrown

> Had to share this!
> 
> Awesome fan design.


That's pretty cool. It reminds me of this cover when rumors of Cranston being Lex

----------


## Sterling

> the voice can probably be worked with. sharlto copley sounded like a high pitched frenchman in elysium but i appreciated his character portrayal.


Really? Hmm. I find Sharlto Copley has the same annoying accent in every role I've seen him in.




> And everyone was mocking Bane's voice until they heard more than 30 seconds of it and realized it didn't matter how Hardy sounded, he was still making Bane terrifying, and the voice wound up just becoming an iconic part of his performance.


I disagree. There was no moment where I found Bane terrifying or even intimidating because of his comical voice.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Really? Hmm. I find Sharlto Copley has the same annoying accent in every role I've seen him in.
> 
> I disagree. There was no moment where I found Bane terrifying or even intimidating because of his comical voice.


Comical? I wouldn't consider his voice comical at all. I thought he spoke volumes with his delivery. Difference of opinions, though.

----------


## themiddle

> Really? Hmm. I find Sharlto Copley has the same annoying accent in every role I've seen him in.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. There was no moment where I found Bane terrifying or even intimidating because of his comical voice.


at first i thought that was really high pitched, but then as the movie progressed, all i thought about him was this dude is really whacko. so yeah, i think i kinda overlooked his accent after awhile.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I loved Rosenbaum's Lex...but it's time to turn the page. I wouldn't have wanted him as Lex here, as I am hungry for something new. I'm still not 100 percent convinced that Eisenberg is THE guy...but so far at least he LOOKS the part.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Comical? I wouldn't consider his voice comical at all. I thought he spoke volumes with his delivery. Difference of opinions, though.


I enjoyed the hell out of Bane in general and his voice in particular. Such a weird, inspiried choice from Hardy/Nolan. Sadly, as superhero movies sink deeper and deeper into the shared universe-formula, I doubt we'll see something as inspired as that in a long time to come.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I enjoyed the hell out of Bane in general and his voice in particular. Such a weird, inspiried choice from Hardy/Nolan. Sadly, as superhero movies sink deeper and deeper into the shared universe-formula, I doubt we'll see something as inspired as that in a long time to come.


Yeah, agreed. 

And I have to say it really annoyed me that around the time we had such a great Bane on screen we got an awful Arkham-inspired Bane by Finch in the comics.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I enjoyed the hell out of Bane in general and his voice in particular. Such a weird, inspiried choice from Hardy/Nolan. Sadly, as superhero movies sink deeper and deeper into the shared universe-formula, I doubt we'll see something as inspired as that in a long time to come.


He was so quotable too.  The only villain I like more than him is Harvey Dent / Two Face.  All of Dent's scenes were powerful and haunting.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I enjoyed the hell out of Bane in general and his voice in particular. Such a weird, inspiried choice from Hardy/Nolan. Sadly, as superhero movies sink deeper and deeper into the shared universe-formula, I doubt we'll see something as inspired as that in a long time to come.


Hardy was amazing as Bane. In many ways that version is much closer to how he was originally portrayed circa Knightfall than what the character later became in the comics. A great take and performance.

----------


## Punisher007

Yeah agreed.  The thing about Bane is that he's supposed to be really physically powerful, but ALSO really SMART.  For the life of me, I do not understand why so many writers have such trouble understanding that second part, and insist of writing him like a violent brute/thug.  If anything, the combination of brains and brawn makes him MORE dangerous, but a lot of writers apparently don't understand that.  Nolan did, and it was great.  Heck I even loved his "look" in the film.  Nolan also got Catwoman better than a lot of writers in the comics seem to as well.

----------


## capNthor

Yea I couldn't take Bane serious because of his voice, nonsensical plot, and bait-and-switch at the end. There wasn't too much about that movie I liked though. Mediocre film, bad Batman film.

----------


## Inertia

> Yea I couldn't take Bane serious because of his voice, nonsensical plot, and bait-and-switch at the end. There wasn't too much about that movie I liked though. Mediocre film, bad Batman film.


So true! :Cool:

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> yea i couldn't take bane serious because of his voice, nonsensical plot, and bait-and-switch at the end. There wasn't too much about that movie i liked though. Mediocre film, bad batman film.



clap, clap, clap !

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Yeah agreed.  The thing about Bane is that he's supposed to be really physically powerful, but ALSO really SMART.  For the life of me, I do not understand why so many writers have such trouble understanding that second part, and insist of writing him like a violent brute/thug.  If anything, the combination of brains and brawn makes him MORE dangerous, but a lot of writers apparently don't understand that.  Nolan did, and it was great.  Heck I even loved his "look" in the film.  Nolan also got Catwoman better than a lot of writers in the comics seem to as well.


Clap clap clap!!

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Yea I couldn't take Bane serious because of his voice, nonsensical plot, and bait-and-switch at the end. There wasn't too much about that movie I liked though. Mediocre film, bad Batman film.


Do you presumably only take him seriously when he's wearing a luchador mask and three times Batman's size?




> Yeah agreed.  The thing about Bane is that he's supposed to be really physically powerful, but ALSO really SMART.  For the life of me, I do not understand why so many writers have such trouble understanding that second part, and insist of writing him like a violent brute/thug.  If anything, the combination of brains and brawn makes him MORE dangerous, but a lot of writers apparently don't understand that.  Nolan did, and it was great.  Heck I even loved his "look" in the film.  Nolan also got Catwoman better than a lot of writers in the comics seem to as well.


Yeah exactly. That image of him breaking Batman's back stands out to everyone and they think Knightfall is purely a physical thing. Bane first exhausts Bruce mentally before he comes in to finish him off. He's a very imposing, very masculine villain, but that doesn't mean he's dumb.

----------


## Angelo2113

> I enjoyed the hell out of Bane in general and his voice in particular. Such a weird, inspiried choice from Hardy/Nolan. Sadly, as superhero movies sink deeper and deeper into the shared universe-formula, I doubt we'll see something as inspired as that in a long time to come.





> Yeah agreed.  The thing about Bane is that he's supposed to be really physically powerful, but ALSO really SMART.  For the life of me, I do not understand why so many writers have such trouble understanding that second part, and insist of writing him like a violent brute/thug.  If anything, the combination of brains and brawn makes him MORE dangerous, but a lot of writers apparently don't understand that.  Nolan did, and it was great.  Heck I even loved his "look" in the film.  Nolan also got Catwoman better than a lot of writers in the comics seem to as well.


It always bothered me how everybody saw Bane as just a "pawn" once Talia revealed herself. I never understood how somebody could throw away the fact that he was the political agitator throughout the entire movie and that he was the one who "broke the Bat." When he spoke, EVERYBODY listened. Plus, the surround sound effects they had when he landed a punch was horrifying to hear considering how fast and powerful they were.




> He was so quotable too.  The only villain I like more than him is Harvey Dent / Two Face.  All of Dent's scenes were powerful and haunting.


Bane certainly was quotable. Harvey Dent/Two-Face stole The Dark Knight for me. Heath Ledger's The Joker was brilliant but to finally see the characterization of Harvey Dent/Two-Face properly done and Aaron Eckhart's amazing performance just put everything together for me and reminded me why I loved the character. I don't believe he gets anywhere near the recognition that he deserves.

----------


## Tracer Bullet

Hardy was doing a Liam Neeson impression

----------


## Sterling

I think this would be a good look for Cyborg in the films:

[IMG]https://cdn.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/000/386/506/large/lewis-fischer-cybug31.jpg?1420418000[/IMG]

----------


## Starchild

> I think this would be a good look for Cyborg in the films:
> 
> [IMG]https://cdn.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/000/386/506/large/lewis-fischer-cybug31.jpg?1420418000[/IMG]



That looks incredible actually and it doesn't look as clunky as the Jim Lee design. It could use more silver though.

----------


## capNthor

> Do you presumably only take him seriously when he's wearing a luchador mask and three times Batman's size?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah exactly. That image of him breaking Batman's back stands out to everyone and they think Knightfall is purely a physical thing. Bane first exhausts Bruce mentally before he comes in to finish him off. He's a very imposing, very masculine villain, but that doesn't mean he's dumb.


I take him serious when he's menacing, interesting and with his own agenda, has present his most interesting/distinctive qualities from the source material, and is written competently in character and motivation. Hopefully we'll see that in the next set of Bat-films.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I take him serious when he's menacing, interesting and with his own agenda,* has present his most interesting/distinctive qualities from the source material*, and is written competently in character and motivation. Hopefully we'll see that in the next set of Bat-films.


So is that a yes then?

He seemed pretty menacing, interesting and well-written to me. I don't see the problem people have when they complain that Talia was behind everything- because that seems to imply they were fine with him just doing it because he was carrying out Ra's will before that. I'm utterly sick of having Bane as a big dumb bruiser and he was by far the best Bane I'd seen in ages, better than half the s**t I've seen in the comics.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> It always bothered me how everybody saw Bane as just a "pawn" once Talia revealed herself. I never understood how somebody could throw away the fact that he was the political agitator throughout the entire movie and that he was the one who "broke the Bat." When he spoke, EVERYBODY listened. Plus, the surround sound effects they had when he landed a punch was horrifying to hear considering how fast and powerful they were.


Yep, and like I just said, that seems to imply they were fine with him essentially being like Ra's "pawn" before that.

And that first fight he has with Bruce is flat-out the best superhero fight I've ever seen. There's so much genuine weight and tension and emotional power behind all of it, and that scene of Bane just pounding on Bat's cowl until it breaks is damn hard to even watch.




> I think this would be a good look for Cyborg in the films:
> 
> [IMG]https://cdn.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/000/386/506/large/lewis-fischer-cybug31.jpg?1420418000[/IMG]


Looks good, but I'd like to see more visible skin or more silver.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Latino-Review is reporting that Scott Eastwood will make a cameo appearance as Steve Trevor in Suicide Squad and that Raymond Olubowale will be King Shark.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Latino-Review is reporting that Scott Eastwood will make a cameo appearance as Steve Trevor in Suicide Squad and that Raymond Olubowale will be King Shark.


So what about the other guy some thought might Steve in the upcoming films? Could that possibly be Hal now?

----------


## Triple J

*Leto teases the voice again?*

*Strong language*

----------


## GrandKaiser

> So what about the other guy some thought might Steve in the upcoming films? Could that possibly be Hal now?


Hal isn't a drone pilot, let's put that to rest

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Hal isn't a drone pilot, let's put that to rest


Understood, but Steve isn't a drone pilot, either, yet that didn't stop people here thinking it might be him.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Understood, but Steve isn't a drone pilot, either, yet that didn't stop people here thinking it might be him.


People thought it was Trevor because he captioned his photo with "give me strength" which is a quote from WW comics. That's it.

----------


## Rogue Star

> https://menaboutcomics.wordpress.com...and-olubowale/
> *Do you think WB will be able to make King Shark something believable in Suicide Squad?*
> and is Rick Flag and Steve Trevor too much in one move?
> Attachment 20127


After Guardians, I think the movie going audience is ready for anything.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> People thought it was Trevor because he captioned his photo with "give me strength" which is a quote from WW comics. That's it.


Yeah, I forgot what the reason was, GK. Sometimes these rumors don't have that much substance to them at all.  :Smile:

----------


## Nite-Wing

They definitely don't need steve trevor in the suicide squad movie. 
If he's just a cameo establishing Rick Flagg fine but giving him a role is probably going to work against the film

----------


## Triple J

> Yeah, I forgot what the reason was, GK. Sometimes these rumors don't have that much substance to them at all.


These days, I am seeing a report on SS just about every day (most of them from particular sites which I am not going to mention). Not even sure if any of these reports/rumors are correct.

----------


## Triple J

Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje casted for Killer Croc




> After playing dual roles in Thor: The Dark World, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje is switching sides and moving from Marvel to DC, as hes set to play Killer Croc in WBs Suicide Squad, TheWrap has learned.
> 
> Representatives for Warner Bros. and Akinnuoye-Agbaje did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
> 
> David Ayer is directing Suicide Squad, which is set to star Will Smith as Deadshot, Joel Kinnaman as Rick Flagg, Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn, Jai Courtney as Captain Boomerang, Cara Delevingne as Enchantress, Viola Davis as Amanda Waller, Jay Hernandez as El Diablo and Jared Leto as The Joker, as TheWrap first reported.


Source: http://www.thewrap.com/adewale-akinn...uad-exclusive/

----------


## Triple J

Thanks to DC Cinematic Universe Page

----------


## GrandKaiser

> They definitely don't need steve trevor in the suicide squad movie. 
> If he's just a cameo establishing Rick Flagg fine but giving him a role is probably going to work against the film


Well if they're going down the New 52 road Trevor could work. In the New 52 Trevor and Waller work close together. In fact Trevor works for ARGUS for a while.

----------


## golgi

Surprised nobody is talking about the possible teaser trailer coming out before Max Max or with Mad Max. Junkie hinted this on his Twitter page as well.

http://screenrant.com/batman-v-super...max-fury-road/

----------


## Triple J

> Surprised nobody is talking about the possible teaser trailer coming out before Max Max or with Mad Max. Junkie hinted this on his Twitter page as well.
> 
> http://screenrant.com/batman-v-super...max-fury-road/


I was wondering whether that's just a joke?

----------


## golgi

> I was wondering whether that's just a joke?


Variety now reports it. I think they would put a April Fools disclaimer on the bottom if it was a joke.

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ad-1201464871/

----------


## Triple J

> Variety now reports it. I think they would put a April Fools disclaimer on the bottom if it was a joke.
> 
> http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ad-1201464871/


Alright, awesome!

Just one more month  :Big Grin:

----------


## Hawkman

I really can't wait for that trailer.  I just hope this isn't another red herring like with _The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies_ and _Jupiter Ascending_.

----------


## Triple J

Del Toro on JL Dark



> "We turned in our [script] revision, and it all depends on the calendar, you know?" del Toro told IGN during a press event for his TV show The Strain today. "If I can do it, I would love to do it. And I think the screenplay and the characters are very solid."
> 
> Del Toro went on to say that if his calendar simply doesn't line up, "somebody will do it." Considering the huge amount of commitment it takes to make a film in a shared universe, del Toro says it's not that easy to commit to directing.
> 
> "You cannot say, ‘Yeah, I’ll do it after I do this,’ or ‘I have the first season of The Strain,'" said the filmmaker. "[Justice League Dark] needs to fall into the plan of the DC Universe."


http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/04/...ce-league-dark

----------


## nightrider

> Variety now reports it. I think they would put a April Fools disclaimer on the bottom if it was a joke.
> 
> http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ad-1201464871/


We've been burnt too many times, first they said it was hobbit, then jupiter ascending, I gave up on anticipating already. I'm just going to get excited once I see the trailer.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Del Toro on JL Dark
> 
> 
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/04/...ce-league-dark


I'm still amazed this hasn't been died in the water yet but they still keep talking about it. I'm starting to feel hyped which is something I didn't want because it means I'd get disappointed if it did fall apart.

----------


## silly

how about the sandman by jgl? i hope that this and jl dark gets included in wb's movie plans soon.

----------


## The Kid

> how about the sandman by jgl? i hope that this and jl dark gets included in wb's movie plans soon.


Sandman will probably be separate from the DCU Cinematic Universe

----------


## Triple J

> how about the sandman by jgl? i hope that this and jl dark gets included in wb's movie plans soon.





> Sandman will probably be separate from the DCU Cinematic Universe


Gaiman did suggest a Vertigo cinematic verse..I expect Sandman to be part of that, unless they have changed the plans.

----------


## Angelo2113

Mad Max has officially become a premiere night viewing for me with the trailer of Dawn of Justice.

----------


## Triple J

Wondercon is this weekend. The 1 hr WB panel is still on (tomorrow at 1); I checked it yesterday and it mentions Mad Max and San Andreas.

Can one hope for something related to BvS?

Hmm, perhaps not.

----------


## golgi

Rumor has it, Chris Miller and Phil Lord might be directing the Flash!

http://dccomicsmovie.com/rumor-phil-...e-flash-movie/

----------


## Predator JP

> Rumor has it, Chris Miller and Phil Lord might be directing the Flash!
> 
> http://dccomicsmovie.com/rumor-phil-...e-flash-movie/


that would be beyond awesome if true. can't think of anyone more suited to the Flash.

----------


## Triple J

Junkie XL Updates on DOJ Trailer/Soundtrack




> We mixed the trailer today... F*** it's so awesome... #iFilmscoring #dawnofjustice #BatmanvSuperman @BatmanNewsCom
> 
> I wrote original music for this with @RealHansZimmer !! #iFilmscoring #dawnofjustice #BatmanvSuperman @BatmanNewsCom
> 
> This movie is so fantastic.... #silent #iFilmscoring @BatmanNewsCom #dawnofjustice #BatmanvSuperman
> 
> In the meantime go see @MadMaxMovie !!! Maybe there is trailer you like @BatmanNewsCom #iFilmscoring #MadMaxFuryRoad


Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/04/04/junk...-and-that-its/

----------


## Robotman

> Rumor has it, Chris Miller and Phil Lord might be directing the Flash!
> 
> http://dccomicsmovie.com/rumor-phil-...e-flash-movie/


That would be so amazing! Lego Movie was brilliant and I'm absolutely loving The Last Man on Earth. Went to the panel today at WonderCon. They were hilarious!

----------


## Jabare

so much for that no joke rumor. Lego Movie was great, not such a big fan of Jump Street though. Still not going to jump to any conclusions till a trailers released

DC just needs to release the trailer already I want to see it. I wasn't super pumped for this movie when it was first announced but over the past few months I'm getting really excited. Can't wait to see Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Flash on the big screen.  Than Shazam and Black Adam later down the road.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Wondercon is this weekend. The 1 hr WB panel is still on (tomorrow at 1); I checked it yesterday and it mentions Mad Max and San Andreas.
> 
> Can one hope for something related to BvS?
> 
> Hmm, perhaps not.


So I guess nothing came of this?

Well not long now anyway with the trailer being attached to Mad Max.

----------


## Angelo2113

Tom Holkenborg a.k.a. Junkie XL posted some tweets while he was working with Hans Zimmer on the trailer for Dawn of Justice...

We mixed the trailer today... F*** it's so awesome... #iFilmscoring #dawnofjustice #BatmanvSuperman @BatmanNewsCom

I wrote original music for this with @RealHansZimmer !! #iFilmscoring #dawnofjustice #BatmanvSuperman @BatmanNewsCom

This movie is so fantastic…. #silent #iFilmscoring @BatmanNewsCom #dawnofjustice #BatmanvSuperman

In the meantime go see @MadMaxMovie !!! Maybe there is trailer you like @BatmanNewsCom #iFilmscoring #MadMaxFuryRoad

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Robotman

>

----------


## GrandKaiser

http://collider.com/suicide-squad-details-red-hood/

This comes from Latino Review, so take it with a grain of salt. The rumor says that Jason Todd's Robin outfit appears in the Batcave in BvS and Harley split with Joker because she feels guilt over his death.

Apparently, Jason Todd is a "priority character" for DC and John Wick directors Chad Stahelski & David Leith might direct a Red Hood film in the future.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> http://collider.com/suicide-squad-details-red-hood/
> 
> This comes from Latino Review, so take it with a grain of salt. The rumor says that Jason Todd's Robin outfit appears in the Batcave in BvS and Harley split with Joker because she feels guilt over his death.
> 
> Apparently, Jason Todd is a "priority character" for DC and John Wick directors Chad Stahelski & David Leith might direct a Red Hood film in the future.


It's great movie material in my opinion. The love and pain between members of the bat family has yet to be properly done. I hope Dick features.

----------


## byrd156

> It's great movie material in my opinion. The love and pain between members of the bat family has yet to be properly done. I hope Dick features.


Dick has to be in it. It would be great to have a few members of the Bat-family already existing.

----------


## Angelo2113

> http://collider.com/suicide-squad-details-red-hood/
> 
> This comes from Latino Review, so take it with a grain of salt. The rumor says that Jason Todd's Robin outfit appears in the Batcave in BvS and Harley split with Joker because she feels guilt over his death.
> 
> Apparently, Jason Todd is a "priority character" for DC and John Wick directors Chad Stahelski & David Leith might direct a Red Hood film in the future.


That would be glorious.

----------


## godisawesome

> Dick has to be in it. It would be great to have a few members of the Bat-family already existing.


To me, the Bat-family, and I mean multiple Robins and multiple Batgirls, is a vast, untapped resovoir for the DC media branches. 

I'd love to see Jason Todd show up, beat the crap out of "goody little two shoes" Tim Drake who's a fresh replacement (my favorite Robin, incidently), have that tick off Nightwing, who goes ballistic on Jason, then, right as they're about to calm down and accept the new status quo, Damian shows up. And if they want to have a Killing Joke counterpart, maybe Babs was severly injured and needs help in Physical therapy from a brutal and unorthodox therapist who can read her body language to gauge exactly how far she can push it; enter Cass Cain as Black Bat as well. And then, when Tim's recovering, maybe he starts accepting help from the plucky girl from the wrong side of the streets, and thus we get Spoiler. 

And then, when Babs gets back to her feet, we get a fully amalgamated Oracle Batgirl with her own little siblings to match Nightwing and his little brothers in Red Robin and Damian, with Jason Todd as the black sheep jerk with a heart of gold.

And y'know what, I honestly wouldn't mind if they recast some of their races. It's be interesting to see an Asian or Hispanic Tim, an actually middle eastern and British-accented Damian (seriously, just giving him a posh accent would go so far to immediately characterize him to the audience), perhaps a mixed Steph, red head Jason, you name it.

----------


## Robotman

They could easily do a Batfamily movie. A new team movie franchise. And then spin off each character into his or her own movie.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> To me, the Bat-family, and I mean multiple Robins and multiple Batgirls, is a vast, untapped resovoir for the DC media branches. 
> 
> I'd love to see Jason Todd show up, beat the crap out of "goody little two shoes" Tim Drake who's a fresh replacement (my favorite Robin, incidently), have that tick off Nightwing, who goes ballistic on Jason, then, right as they're about to calm down and accept the new status quo, Damian shows up. And if they want to have a Killing Joke counterpart, maybe Babs was severly injured and needs help in Physical therapy from a brutal and unorthodox therapist who can read her body language to gauge exactly how far she can push it; enter Cass Cain as Black Bat as well. And then, when Tim's recovering, maybe he starts accepting help from the plucky girl from the wrong side of the streets, and thus we get Spoiler. 
> 
> And then, when Babs gets back to her feet, we get a fully amalgamated Oracle Batgirl with her own little siblings to match Nightwing and his little brothers in Red Robin and Damian, with Jason Todd as the black sheep jerk with a heart of gold.
> 
> And y'know what, I honestly wouldn't mind if they recast some of their races. It's be interesting to see an Asian or Hispanic Tim, an actually middle eastern and British-accented Damian (seriously, just giving him a posh accent would go so far to immediately characterize him to the audience), perhaps a mixed Steph, red head Jason, you name it.


And don't forget an actual middle eastern Ra's al Ghul too.

----------


## Starchild

> They could easily do a Batfamily movie. A new team movie franchise. And then spin off each character into his or her own movie.



That's overkill imo. I'd only see a Red Hood movie if Arsenal and Starfire is in it. DC needs to learn how to not depend on Batman all the time, they're already failing by shoe horning him into Suicide Squad.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> They could easily do a Batfamily movie. A new team movie franchise. And then spin off each character into his or her own movie.


Oh god no. Hopefully it will be like the the animated line and only have Robin and Nightwing that and Alfred is the only bat family we need.

----------


## Black_Adam

I love Jason as the Red Hood but Dick deserves to be a priority character over him, there is so much untapped potential with developing Nightwing/Grayson as a movie franchise. Though I can image a dark and gritty Red Hood movie being very Punisher like.




> That's overkill imo. I'd only see a Red Hood movie if Arsenal and Starfire is in it. DC needs to learn how to not depend on Batman all the time, they're already failing by shoe horning him into Suicide Squad.


Batman apparently shows up on some surveillance footage for like 5 seconds... And it will probably just be some scene from BvS shown on TV, don't see how they are depending on him too much with Suicide Squad.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> That's overkill imo. I'd only see a Red Hood movie if Arsenal and Starfire is in it. DC needs to learn how to not depend on Batman all the time, they're already failing by shoe horning him into Suicide Squad.


I agree.  I think eventually some short time after 2020 the popularity of comic book movie/tv properties will slow down due to an oversaturated market.  An effort such as this would contribute to this.

----------


## GrandKaiser

I don't think a Red Hood movie is really worth it at this point in time when we barely have any info on what the solo Batman film(s) will be like. I think Hawkman, Selina Kyle, Justice League Dark, Dick Grayson, Lobo, Booster Gold, and Blue Beetle should be priority characters for DC. Red Hood can barely carry his own book (not saying it's unsuccessful, just plain bad) and most of his "popularity" comes from a direct-to-DVD animated film that was very very different from the comic it was even based on. Oh and let's not forget that after his resurrection and before the New 52 DC had literally _no idea_ what to even do with him. I don't even think they did at the start of the New 52. Is he a villain? An anti-hero? A psychotic maniac? DC has _never_ been consistent with Todd at all, even in his earlier appearances the writers didn't know if he was an innocent kid or a rebellious teenager. I'm not saying that Jason Todd isn't cool I just really don't understand why DC considers him a priority. I just can't understand it.

And I wouldn't get my hopes up on seeing Dick Grayson in a film anytime soon, what with him being the lead in the new Titans show and everything. But since this DC Cineverse Flash might be Barry Allen I shouldn't speak too soon.

*spoilers:*
I really want to see Grayson adapted into a film or TV show...
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Triple J

*SS*

The image confirms a lot of the cast, also reveals others who weren't known to be attached to the movie

----------


## Robotman

So I guess Jim Parrack is playing Deathstroke. Kind of a weak choice.

----------


## The Kid

I don't think we need to worry about Batman oversaturation. He's not really all that visible. To comic fans maybe but the general public will be seeing him for the first time in four years when BvS comes out

----------


## Angelo2113

Jared Leto being saved for the reveal?

Jim Parrack as Deathstroke is an odd choice. Not a bad actor though. Heard the other guy is supposed to be Hugo Strange. Hopefully they don't make him into a joke, that's the only role I've ever seen him play.

----------


## byrd156

> Oh god no. Hopefully it will be like the the animated line and only have Robin and Nightwing that and Alfred is the only bat family we need.


Batwoman also exists apparently in the new animated universe for some reason. She was in a dream sequence in the new animated film.

----------


## The Kid

Damn I really thought they were gonna get Joe Manganiello for Deathstroke. Well I hope this guy does a good job

----------


## Robotman

> Damn I really thought they were gonna get Joe Manganiello for Deathstroke. Well I hope this guy does a good job


Yeah I think he would've been a much better choice. With Parrack now pretty much confirmed to be playing Slade I have to say my excitement level for this movie has dropped significantly. I guess it also means that Slade is gonna stay young for the foreseeable future. At 33 this Slade is not what you'd call a grizzled veteran. Manganiello isn't much older at 39 but he had more of that Slade Wilson look. 

When I see this guy I don't think "Deathstroke the Terminator"

----------


## blaster86

> Yeah I think he would've been a much better choice. With Parrack now pretty much confirmed to be playing Slade I have to say my excitement level for this movie has dropped significantly. I guess it also means that Slade is gonna stay young for the foreseeable future. At 33 this Slade is not what you'd call a grizzled veteran. Manganiello isn't much older at 39 but he had more of that Slade Wilson look. 
> 
> When I see this guy I don't think "Deathstroke the Terminator"


My theroy is he could be playing death stroke son he just using his dad name to get merc jobs if he get killed by a SS member here and we get a sequel my guess is it will be a slade getting revenge on who kill him but that just my theroy

----------


## byrd156

> My theroy is he could be playing death stroke son he just using his dad name to get merc jobs if he get killed by a SS member here and we get a sequel my guess is it will be a slade getting revenge on who kill him but that just my theroy


Or it could just be bad casting.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## blaster86

> Or it could just be bad casting.


That too lol

----------


## Doctor Know

Oh Christ!, Hoyt from True Blood is supposed to play Slade?! WTF

Make him Grant and have him killed off.

----------


## Robotman

WB has been pretty good at pissing off fans with their casting choices. I just have to keep telling myself "wait until you actually see the movie to judge". But damn are they making it difficult.

----------


## The Kid

I genuinely like the casting for the rest of this film but this one just blows my mind. I've liked Smith, loved Robbie (let's face it, Harley is gonna be the hottest character in the DCU now), loved Leto, and like most of the smaller parts but I can't wrap my head around this. I just can't buy this dude as Deathstroke the Terminator.

So far, the BvS casting has been eh but I've lived Suicide Squad until now. I really hope I'm proven now

----------


## Robotman

Yeah seeing Deathstroke on the big screen was what I was looking forward to the most about this movie. But I'm really disappointed by this. 
First we have a younger Slade which I can't stand. Being an older battle tested veteran is a big part of his character. Hate how Slade has been de-aged in the comics and this casting seems like that will be how Deathstroke will be portrayed for the foreseeable future. 
Plus Jim Parrack kind of looks like a poor man's Chris Pratt. 

Hopefully he proves me wrong and ends up being great.

----------


## chamber-music

Jim Parrack worked with Ayer in Fury. 
tt27131805.jpg

----------


## Triple J

Phil Lord and Christopher Miller Working on the Flash?

We did hear about rumors earlier this week..but now Deadline is reporting that they are indeed working on the movie (whether a direct it or not is still up in the air).

Source http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...h-feature-film

----------


## Starchild

Jim Parrick is a great actor. I'm going to deserve judgement. No one knows what direction they're going to take Deathstroke in. I will applaud them for doing their own universe take on Slade, not everything has to be faithful to the source material. Wake up.

----------


## The Kid

Yeah but Deathstroke should be badass. They can change stuff and I'm usually ok with adaptation changes but certain things should remain the same such as Deathstroke looking like a bad motherf-cker

----------


## Starchild

> Yeah but Deathstroke should be badass. They can change stuff and I'm usually ok with adaptation changes but certain things should remain the same such as Deathstroke looking like a bad motherf-cker



I'd rather Deathstroke's actions speak for itself, to show that he's badass. We don't know if they'll change his appearance or not and how do you know that we won't get a badass Deathstroke?

----------


## Beantownbrown

Killing Joke Pose

----------


## nightrider

> Killing Joke Pose


Is this WB's marketing tactic? Have their directors release teasers all through the year? Because it seems like its building quite abit of buzz.

----------


## GrandKaiser

SO. FREAKING. COOL. That pic looks so 80's, and....COOL!!!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Phil Lord and Christopher Miller Working on the Flash?
> 
> We did hear about rumors earlier this week..but now Deadline is reporting that they are indeed working on the movie (whether a direct it or not is still up in the air).
> 
> Source http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...h-feature-film


I THINK this is good news?!  I hope that they work well with Ezra Miller considering that they had no part at all in his casting.   This film's script will have to be good considering the success of the tv show.  If it isn't sharp then it could easily be overshadowed by the tv show... which will likely have four seasons by the time the Flash film is released.

----------


## GrandKaiser

ignore this

----------


## Angelo2113

> I'd rather Deathstroke's actions speak for itself, to show that he's badass. We don't know if they'll change his appearance or not and how do you know that we won't get a badass Deathstroke?


I agree. After so many castings, especially in superhero movies, I don't think it's fair at this point to look at somebody and say that he's not badass before seeing him in action. Parrack is 6'4" and Ayer does quite well with hardcore/rough characters in his movies.




> Phil Lord and Christopher Miller Working on the Flash?
> 
> We did hear about rumors earlier this week..but now Deadline is reporting that they are indeed working on the movie (whether a direct it or not is still up in the air).
> 
> Source http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...h-feature-film


I enjoyed The Lego Movie a lot more than I was expecting so I hope this is true.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> I agree. After so many castings, especially in superhero movies, I don't think it's fair at this point to look at somebody and say that he's not badass before seeing him in action. Parrack is 6'4" and Ayer does quite well with hardcore/rough characters in his movies.


Parrack was also the better actor in True Blood.
If Ayer can coax a great performance out of Shia LeBeouf, then he'll have no trouble with Parrack.  Besides, Deathstroke is mostly going to be a physical role.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Killing Joke Pose


Uh Oh.  Watch out for the Mary Sues and SJWs who will now call for the boycotting of Suicide Squad!

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

I'm really enjoying the marketing approach for Suicide Squad. Open and inviting without being obnoxious, and still with a pleasant little amount of mystery surrounding it.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I'm more hyped about suicide squad than I am batman v superman
Suicide squad is clearly carrying the weight in terms of actually building the DCCU up

----------


## GrandKaiser

I agree. BvS is setting up the Justice League while Squad is actually trying to reach every corner of the DC Universe in one movie. I have a feeling there'll be insane world building in that film.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Is this WB's marketing tactic? Have their directors release teasers all through the year? Because it seems like its building quite abit of buzz.


Definitely I mean compare this to BvS where everything they release has been so slow and deliberate, I think a lot of it has to do with Ayer he is clearly enjoying working on this project, and also the marketing, Suicide Squad is not a household name so it is a great strategy to keep the film constantly in the news and on peoples feeds. I mean one of the first things I do when I get to work everyday is a do a quick Google on the Squad, it seems like everyday we get something new!





> I'm more hyped about suicide squad than I am batman v superman
> Suicide squad is clearly carrying the weight in terms of actually building the DCCU up


Not sure about more hyped, but yes the potential to really flesh out the DCCU with this movie is massive. It is such a great surprise to see one of my favourite Bat villains Killer Croc will be making his debut on the big screen, I never imagined it would be in a movie like this. I'm really anxious to see what they do with the character, will they make him more like a human with a skin condition like his early incarnations or will he be full blown Lizard-Hulk? Picked a great actor for the role too, Mr Eko! :Cool:

----------


## Black_Adam

https://twitter.com/BatmanNewsCom/st...51430177021953

Jim Parrack's girlfriend Leven Rambin says he is NOT playing Deathstroke in Suicide Squad. Potential CBR meltdown averted.

----------


## nightrider

> https://twitter.com/BatmanNewsCom/st...51430177021953
> 
> Jim Parrack's girlfriend Leven Rambin says he is NOT playing Deathstroke in Suicide Squad. Potential CBR meltdown averted.


when are people gonna learn that el mayimbe's words are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

----------


## Triple J

> when are people gonna learn that el mayimbe's words are to be taken with a pinch of salt.


Probably never. I can understand though...there's so little coming out from official sources (well, maybe not so much with SS - Ayer is sharing a lot via Twitter, so are the actors involved through various media). But, with the universe as general...people are just going to analyze and discuss every tidbit of info they find, even if it turns out to be false.

----------


## Starchild

Too bad. I think really wanted to see his take on Slade Wilson.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Yeah seeing Deathstroke on the big screen was what I was looking forward to the most about this movie. But I'm really disappointed by this. 
> First we have a younger Slade which I can't stand. Being an older battle tested veteran is a big part of his character. Hate how Slade has been de-aged in the comics and this casting seems like that will be how Deathstroke will be portrayed for the foreseeable future. 
> Plus Jim Parrack kind of looks like a poor man's Chris Pratt. 
> 
> Hopefully he proves me wrong and ends up being great.


Come on now a few years ago Chris Pratt would have been considered a poor man's Chris Pratt

----------


## Angelo2113

Umberto Gonzalez/elmayimbe response - @BatmanNewsCom @levenrambin Prob smoke & mirrors. Getting conflicting reports on SS. Still trying to figure out. Downgraded to rumor status.

His Twitter is interesting even though everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Here's some stuff I figured is more true than rumor. He says Batman's costume will be the best it's been in 25 years. That it will be black and grey. Wonder Woman's uniform is red, blue, and rustic gold. ...That's about it so far.

----------


## nightrider

> Umberto Gonzalez/elmayimbe response - @BatmanNewsCom @levenrambin Prob smoke & mirrors. Getting conflicting reports on SS. Still trying to figure out. Downgraded to rumor status.
> 
> His Twitter is interesting even though everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Here's some stuff I figured is more true than rumor. He says Batman's costume will be the best it's been in 25 years. That it will be black and grey. Wonder Woman's uniform is red, blue, and rustic gold. ...That's about it so far.


When has batman's costume not been black and gray? Also WW uniform is red blue and gold, so I think he made tons of educated guesses. I'm not saying he doesn't get insider info, but some of them are just all rumors for the sake of it

----------


## Angelo2113

> When has batman's costume not been black and gray? Also WW uniform is red blue and gold, so I think he made tons of educated guesses. I'm not saying he doesn't get insider info, but some of them are just all rumors for the sake of it


A couple people asked him if the costume was going to be blue and grey similar to the Dark Knight Returns cover. He said he had a good look at the costume so I'm not sure if he was bluffing or he somehow actually got to see the costume. Yeah, which is why I mentioned that everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. DC Comics information is pretty tight even for him. He said he had no clue about the Batfleck announcement. He's also bragging about the Suicide Squad scoops that Warner Bros. planned to wait until SDCC.

I wasn't really trying to announce any new information, just a conversation starter of the sorts.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Umberto Gonzalez/elmayimbe response - @BatmanNewsCom @levenrambin Prob smoke & mirrors. Getting conflicting reports on SS. Still trying to figure out. Downgraded to rumor status.
> 
> His Twitter is interesting even though everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Here's some stuff I figured is more true than rumor. *He says Batman's costume will be the best it's been in 25 years. That it will be black and grey.* Wonder Woman's uniform is red, blue, and rustic gold. ...That's about it so far.


Pretty sure that's just repeating what Kevin Smith said.

----------


## Jabare

> Come on now a few years ago Chris Pratt would have been considered a poor man's Chris Pratt


Chjris Prat was also playing Star Lord which was not well known.  I mean you shouldn't judge the casting till you see the performance but no one was really hating on him as Star Lord as most people didn't know much of anything about Star Lord. 




> When has batman's costume not been black and gray? Also WW uniform is red blue and gold, so I think he made tons of educated guesses. I'm not saying he doesn't get insider info, but some of them are just all rumors for the sake of it


Outside of Adam West's Blue and grey and that other really old live action Batman (hispanic?), Batman's costume has always been just black in the live action movies.

Wonder Woman's pic was already released but its tinted.

It's a rumor website. He clearly has sources as he's leaked tons of stories. And other times his info is a little off,  because he was either given wrong information or things changed. Thats how the rumor business works. It's only catering to a select few anyway. I feel like most can wait for the movie not everyone wants ot be spoiled.

----------


## Triple J

*Scott Eastwood talks about SS*

----------


## GrandKaiser

Holy cow, he is insanely good looking. It's going to be hard to see Diana reject that hunk for Ugly Cavill.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> When has batman's costume not been black and gray? Also WW uniform is red blue and gold, so I think he made tons of educated guesses. I'm not saying he doesn't get insider info, but some of them are just all rumors for the sake of it


Okay, I think we all need a history lesson on Latino Review.

Latino Review was the same website that confirmed a Suicide Squad movie based on a leaked FAN MADE script. They confirmed actors, characters, directors, writers, producers, everything, even though the script that had leaked was fan made. They lost ALL credibility with that. This was a few years ago, but when Suicide Squad was announced with the DC lineup, they REVIVED the old story, knowing FULL WELL it was fake, just so they could deceive people yet again.

They never have news on movies coming soon, instead they only have news on films that won't come out for a while. Why? Because in case they're wrong, they can just say that the producers changed it before the film was released. They do this ALL THE TIME. They did it with Man of Steel, Iron Man 3, and Guardians of the Galaxy. They even got an email from Marvel Studios themselves asking them about the utter nonsense they posted regarding their movies. Because they LIE. They LIE ALL THE DAMN TIME.

They spent YEARS trying to convince people a Planet Hulk movie was in development and that Mark Ruffalo had signed on. In reality there was NEVER any source to back these claims...El Mayimbe literally MADE IT UP. He made up a Planet Hulk movie in order to deceive people and Kevin Feige himself had to respond by saying there was never any Planet Hulk movie in development. But HE STILL DIDN'T GIVE UP. Even after Feige denied it El Mayimbe CONTINUED to report on Planet Hulk like an idiot because he just hates looking like an idiot and he'll do anything to protect his cute little "internet reputation" (He did the same thing with Black Panther before the Phase 3 announcements. In reality, his announcement and the Phase 3 announcement had NOTHING to do with each other BUT GUESS WHAT? HE TOOK CREDIT FOR IT. Like the little WEASEL he is) .

This guy used to be so scared of Marvel and so scared of being exposed that he BEGGED people to follow him on twitter so they would eventually get a scoop on Black Panther but he actually was just figuring out stuff to fabricate and make up in a way that Marvel wouldn't be angry at him.

And what makes him really diabolical is that he makes people follow and retweet him before he drops scoops. 

"DO YOU GUYS WANT ME TO DROP THIS EPIC MADE UP SCOOP?!?! RETWEET FOR YES AND FAVORITE FOR NO!!! IF I GET 1000 NEW FOLLOWERS I'LL DROP THIS EPIC SCOOP! COME ON DO IT! MAKE ME POPULAR! GIVE ME ATTENTION!!!" -- Basically every tweet by this loser.

No other online publication that I know of asks its readers to jump through these kinds of hoops before releasing information.

And whenever their made up scoop from years ago turns about to be (kind of) true in the present, he automatically takes credit for it and screams "SEE!?!?! I WAS RIGHT! LATINO REVIEW _IS_ A CREDIBLE SOURCE! THANKS TO ALL MY FANZZZ!"

Latino Review are a bunch of idiots and an insult to journalism along with the geek community. It should be a crime to post anything by them here and I am partly responsible because I posted a link to their instagram only a few days ago which I regret.

----------


## nightrider

> *Scott Eastwood talks about SS*


LOL at the reporter's questions. 
EVERYONE LOOK AT HIS EYES, SEE IF HE IS LYING ABOUT BEING/NOT BEING STEVE TREVOR.

I think he is steve trevor. I can tell this much from his responses. Any other videos?

----------


## nightrider

> Holy cow, he is insanely good looking. It's going to be hard to see Diana reject that hunk for Ugly Cavill.


1. oh hell no, henry cavill is equally as good looking, its not his fault he needs to put on 100 pounds to be superman!!!!

2. yes yes yes, scott trevor needs to be the charming good looking a list actor that wonder woman deserves!





> Okay, I think we all need a history lesson on Latino Review.
> 
> Latino Review was the same website that confirmed a Suicide Squad movie based on a leaked FAN MADE script. They confirmed actors, characters, directors, writers, producers, everything, even though the script that had leaked was fan made. They lost ALL credibility with that. This was a few years ago, but when Suicide Squad was announced with the DC lineup, they REVIVED the old story, knowing FULL WELL it was fake, just so they could deceive people yet again.
> 
> They never have news on movies coming soon, instead they only have news on films that won't come out for a while. Why? Because in case they're wrong, they can just say that the producers changed it before the film was released. They do this ALL THE TIME. They did it with Man of Steel, Iron Man 3, and Guardians of the Galaxy. They even got an email from Marvel Studios themselves asking them about the utter nonsense they posted regarding their movies. Because they LIE. They LIE ALL THE DAMN TIME.
> 
> They spent YEARS trying to convince people a Planet Hulk movie was in development and that Mark Ruffalo had signed on. In reality there was NEVER any source to back these claims...El Mayimbe literally MADE IT UP. He made up a Planet Hulk movie in order to deceive people and Kevin Feige himself had to respond by saying there was never any Planet Hulk movie in development. But HE STILL DIDN'T GIVE UP. Even after Feige denied it El Mayimbe CONTINUED to report on Planet Hulk like an idiot because he just hates looking like an idiot and he'll do anything to protect his cute little "internet reputation" (He did the same thing with Black Panther before the Phase 3 announcements. In reality, his announcement and the Phase 3 announcement had NOTHING to do with each other BUT GUESS WHAT? HE TOOK CREDIT FOR IT. Like the little WEASEL he is) .
> 
> This guy used to be so scared of Marvel and so scared of being exposed that he BEGGED people to follow him on twitter so they would eventually get a scoop on Black Panther but he actually was just figuring out stuff to fabricate and make up in a way that Marvel wouldn't be angry at him.
> ...


ok chill.

----------


## nightrider

Heres another interview of him. You can still that he's trying to really not say anything.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Pretty sure that's just repeating what Kevin Smith said.


Yeah, it seemed very similar to what Kevin Smith said after I read it. That's why I feel it could have been a bluff just to answer questions.




> *Scott Eastwood talks about SS*


I hope he's signed a multiple movie deal. Damn Warner Bros./DC Comics being so secretive! (I'm actually very glad they're so secretive but there's times where I just want to know! GAH!)

Anybody think they're going to make Suicide Squad Rated-R or keep it a hard PG-13?

----------


## Sirzechs

me when  someone says Cavill is ugly :

----------


## Angelo2113

> 1. oh hell no, henry cavill is equally as good looking, its not his fault he needs to put on 100 pounds to be superman!!!!
> 
> 2. yes yes yes, scott trevor needs to be the charming good looking a list actor that wonder woman deserves!


Cavill is a handsome guy. He's grown quite a lot since his Tudor days and first being announced as Superman.

Fantastic post, Sirzechs.

----------


## GrandKaiser

I live for the day when CBR posters stop taking my posts seriously. 

But that Latino Review post, that is 100% serious. And important for anyone who still considers them to be a reputable source.

----------


## Starchild

El Mayimbe is actually pretty accurate with some of the scoops. Whenever he gets a bad scoop, he isn't afraid to admit it.

----------


## Triple J

Jim Parrack Hints on his role in SS - Deathstroke!



https://instagram.com/p/1ZLu84CxS4/

----------


## Angelo2113

> Jim Parrack Hints on his role in SS - Deathstroke!
> 
> 
> 
> https://instagram.com/p/1ZLu84CxS4/


Ha, that's good. I'm actually looking forward to him as Deathstroke now.

Edited: I wonder if he's just trolling now.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Yeah that's a pretty young looking Deathstroke 
I mean Batman might be older than him now

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if we'll actually see him in a full-on Deathstroke suit in the movie?

----------


## Angelo2113

> Yeah that's a pretty young looking Deathstroke 
> I mean Batman might be older than him now


I think Batman and Joker are the oldest characters in this universe. ...Well, Wonder Woman might have several good decades on them.




> I wonder if we'll actually see him in a full-on Deathstroke suit in the movie?


I'm sure we'll definitely see a Deathstroke costume in the movie.

----------


## Angelo2113

It's still far away but I hope Wal-Mart has an advanced preview for Batman v. Superman similar to Man of Steel. That was such an awesome experience.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I live for the day when CBR posters stop taking my posts seriously. 
> 
> But that Latino Review post, that is 100% serious. And important for anyone who still considers them to be a reputable source.


I agree with your original post 100%.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> El Mayimbe is actually pretty accurate with some of the scoops. Whenever he gets a bad scoop, he isn't afraid to admit it.


He has been accurate on some when they are very close to being released.  From what I have seen his scoops are often wrong  60- 70% of the time... and that is probably being generous.

----------


## Starchild

Anyone have a feeling that most of these villains will breakout by the end of SS?

----------


## GrandKaiser

Jim Parrack's wife said he wasn't playing Deathstroke

----------


## nightrider

I think hes trolling on us.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Clearly, he's really playing either Two-Face or Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man.

----------


## nightrider

> Clearly, he's really playing either Two-Face or Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man.


They see him trollin', they hatin'

----------


## themiddle

> Anyone have a feeling that most of these villains will breakout by the end of SS?


how many of this minor role characters will finish the movie alive?

i half expect a high body count due to jared leto's joker.

----------


## Triple J

Official Credits  :Big Grin: 



Via http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=118593 and http://www.batmanvsupermandawnofjustice.com/ (official site).

----------


## Frontier

Of course Batman gets top billing  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

None of the namechecked actors could be playing a second villain (unless Helen Hunt shocks the world by being Maxima or someone like that), which means one of the following;

A: The rumors of a second villain are incorrect, and Batman and Superman will work as eachother's antagonists throughout the movie. 
B: They're keeping that name off the credits to create maximum impact with the first trailer, or whenever they want to do the reveal.
C: It's such a small physical role (like someone voicing a CGI character) that it doesn't get credited on the poster, like Ray Fisher's and Jason Momoa's presumed cameos. 

My money is on C. If that is the case, it stands to some reason that they're doing Doomsday.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Anyone have a feeling that most of these villains will breakout by the end of SS?


I can see the main villains breaking out. Knowing that it's a David Ayer film, I wouldn't be surprised if most of these villains are killed off though. ...Which is exactly what I'm hoping for from a Suicide Squad movie.




> Official Credits 
> 
> 
> 
> Via http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=118593 and http://www.batmanvsupermandawnofjustice.com/ (official site).


They're really teasing us with this, aren't they? We know there's a poster that goes with that! 

Great post!

----------


## byrd156

Suicide Squad has started filming.

http://comicbook.com/2015/04/13/suic...begun-filming/

----------


## Triple J

> None of the namechecked actors could be playing a second villain (unless Helen Hunt shocks the world by being Maxima or someone like that), which means one of the following;
> 
> A: The rumors of a second villain are incorrect, and Batman and Superman will work as eachother's antagonists throughout the movie. 
> B: They're keeping that name off the credits to create maximum impact with the first trailer, or whenever they want to do the reveal.
> C: It's such a small physical role (like someone voicing a CGI character) that it doesn't get credited on the poster, like Ray Fisher's and Jason Momoa's presumed cameos. 
> 
> My money is on C. If that is the case, it stands to some reason that they're doing Doomsday.


I am going for C too...Ray did mention that he met everyone (except for Cavill or was it Affleck?) on set.




> I can see the main villains breaking out. Knowing that it's a David Ayer film, I wouldn't be surprised if most of these villains are killed off though. ...Which is exactly what I'm hoping for from a Suicide Squad movie.
> 
> 
> 
> They're really teasing us with this, aren't they? We know there's a poster that goes with that! 
> 
> Great post!


Yes, indeed. If the reports are true, we will be getting a teaser soon...along with Mad Max. So, the official posters (at least one?) should be coming out right after that.

----------


## Starchild

Ezra and Cavill are the only ones that Ray didn't meet. He said that his scenes are with Ben.

----------


## The Kid

Never mind

----------


## Robotman

MacLauren has dropped out of directing Wonder Woman! Apparently there were creative differences between her and WB. 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...irector-788500

----------


## Triple J

> The official reason for her leaving is 'creative differences,' and that seems legit according to the scuttlebutt that has reached me. MacLaren and Warner Bros couldn't agree on anything - including what time period to set the movie. More than that, MacLaren had some very particular visions for the film, visions that maybe would have alienated fandom. *Although perhaps Diana having a tiger sidekick/pet she could talk with would have appealed to people more than I expect*.



Not sure if this is true. Source: http://badassdigest.com/2015/04/13/m...-wonder-woman/

----------


## Robotman

If that's true we may have dodged a bullet. 

I wonder if they're gonna have to look for another female director. People are going to complain that they "replaced a woman with a man" if they get a male director now.

----------


## Triple J

> If that's true we may have dodged a bullet. 
> 
> I wonder if they're gonna have to look for another female director. People are going to complain that they "replaced a woman with a man" if they get a male director now.


Oh, yes.

I imagine WB will then have to face the might of all tumblr feminists.

----------


## Starchild

Does Wonder Woman HAVE to be directed by a woman? As long as the director is great, I have no problem.

----------


## Robotman

> Does Wonder Woman HAVE to be directed by a woman? As long as the director is great, I have no problem.


Me neither but you just know the fact that "they replaced a female director with a male" is gonna cause a shitstorm. Even if the split was mutual. WB kind of screwed themselves by just looking at female directors the first time around. 
But if there's a male director who is better suited for this movie they're just gonna have to wade through the bad PR and hope the finished product is amazing.

I'm very curious to see how Marvel responds with the Captain Marvel movie. There were already rumors that they wanted Angelina Jolie to direct. Wouldn't be surprised if they offered it to MacLaren now.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Does Wonder Woman HAVE to be directed by a woman? As long as the director is great, I have no problem.


In no way does it.  However I can see a #%@$storm rising if she is replaced by a male director.

----------


## Predator JP

a tiger sidekick/pet she could talk with? wtf?

----------


## Robotman

> a tiger sidekick/pet she could talk with? wtf?


I think she got Diana confused with Billy Batson.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> I'm very curious to see how Marvel responds with the Captain Marvel movie. There were already rumors that they wanted Angelina Jolie to direct. Wouldn't be surprised if they offered it to MacLaren now.


I doubt Marvel will let McLauren do whatever she wants, and if that's the case, she's probably outta there.

----------


## Angelo2113

A talking tiger in Wonder Woman, seriously? We all know they have to save Mr. Tawky Tawny for the Shazam! movie. C'mon, son!

----------


## Angelo2113

> Yes, indeed. If the reports are true, we will be getting a teaser soon...along with Mad Max. So, the official posters (at least one?) should be coming out right after that.


Yeah, I heard about a teaser happening before Mad Max but I don't know if that will happen. Warner Bros. may wait until post-Avengers to start the exposure. I hope the poster is the Trinity or something new.




> Ezra and Cavill are the only ones that Ray didn't meet. He said that his scenes are with Ben.


Hm, I wonder if it's as Batman or Bruce Wayne.




> Oh, yes.
> 
> I imagine WB will then have to face the might of all tumblr feminists.


I hear they're in season.

----------


## Robotman

So it's very possible that it was MacLaren who wanted the first two movies to be period pieces set in the 1920s and 1940s. basically put her own spin on the Wonder Woman mythos while WB is probably more interested in making a straight up modern day superhero movie. The Wonder Woman film has been in development hell for years so going the safe route with her debut may be for the better. I like risk takers but there is far too much riding on this to stray from the classic Wonder Woman framework.

----------


## Angelo2113

Gail Simone posted some tweets about inside information for Wonder Woman in Batman v. Superman...

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Wow, people disagreeing on what the hell to do with Wonder Woman... I'm shocked I tell you, shocked!!!

----------


## Punisher007

Hell the fans cannot even agree on how she should be portrayed.

----------


## Predator JP

> Gail Simone posted some tweets about inside information for Wonder Woman in Batman v. Superman...


sounds great.
hope she'll steal the movie like Quicksilver did in DOTFP.

----------


## DebkoX

I think Kathryn Bigelow would make a brilliant director.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> sounds great.
> hope she'll steal the movie like Quicksilver did in DOTFP.


Me too.

I'd love it if Diana gets to be the one who breaks up the fight between Superman and Batman. I'd love it if she separates the two of them like a couple of squabbling children and gets them to follow her in fighting whatever the real threat to the world happens to be. 

Failing that? I'd love to see Superman and Batman end up getting captured or imperiled in some way, only to be rescued by Diana. I just envision her exploding onto the scene while Clark and Bruce just stare at her, all slack-jawed.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Speaking of resigning directors, does anyone else think it would be a good idea for WB to offer Edgar Wright the chance to direct an Atom movie?  :Wink:

----------


## qwerty3w

Imagine there is a east asian Superhero that was created to fight the racism against east asians and has a central theme about how math make the world better and people should be more interested in math. Of course many of the modern writers and directors would be unsatisfied with the concept. WW's current status might be sorta like that.

----------


## Starchild

> Speaking of resigning directors, does anyone else think it would be a good idea for WB to offer Edgar Wright the chance to direct an Atom movie?



WB would be trolling hard for that one lol. How is that not the ultimate F you haha?

----------


## GrandKaiser

Let's get Simon Pegg and Nick Frost as Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, in a film directed by Edgar Wright.

----------


## Rogue Star

> WB would be trolling hard for that one lol. How is that not the ultimate F you haha?


What's that?  You said you want a director to sit on the movie for about 6 to 8 years and watch the rest of the cinematic universe move on without him?  

No seriously, that probably wouldn't bother Marvel Studios but the fans would FLIP. OUT.

----------


## liwanag

> Let's get Simon Pegg and Nick Frost as Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, in a film directed by Edgar Wright.


lol.

reminds me of jack black as gl.

----------


## Angelo2113

Scott Eastwood isn't playing Steve Trevor (Really bummed out about that one. I thought that would have been a great casting.)

Possible teaser to appear on Snyder's Twitter Thursday morning at 9:00. Not sure whether it's E/C/P.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Me neither but you just know the fact that "they replaced a female director with a male" is gonna cause a shitstorm. Even if the split was mutual. WB kind of screwed themselves by just looking at female directors the first time around. 
> But if there's a male director who is better suited for this movie they're just gonna have to wade through the bad PR and hope the finished product is amazing.
> 
> I'm very curious to see how Marvel responds with the Captain Marvel movie. There were already rumors that they wanted Angelina Jolie to direct. Wouldn't be surprised if they offered it to MacLaren now.


Yeah DC would be lambaste by The "Patriarchy" argument.

----------


## Robotman

I think this Vanity Fair article about MacLaren's departure pretty much sums it up:

“Creative differences” could literally mean anything, but the lack of specificity in the language here is enough to evoke other high-profile director departures like Edgar Wright’s from Marvel’s Ant-Man or Patty Jenkins’s from Thor 2. When taken together, these stories feed into the growing perception that directors with too-strong sensibilities or vision don’t fit in the world of big-budget comic-book franchises, which rely on interlocking films that blend together more than they stand out. Avengers director Joss Whedon diplomatically confirmed this was the case at Marvel in a recent interview about why he was leaving the extremely lucrative franchise. He told Vulture:

“With so much at stake, there’s gonna be friction. It’s the Marvel way to sort of question everything. Sometimes, that’s amazing. And sometimes” — and here Whedon growled his compliment through gritted teeth, the meaning clear — “that’s amazing.”

----------


## golgi

Can't believe people here aren't talking about this yet!







> Larry Fong @larryfong · 5m 5 minutes ago
> Wouldn’t this be totally cool? RT @IGN: #BatmanvSuperman trailer rumored to hit this Thursday!


http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...age-of-ultron/

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> Can't believe people here aren't talking about this yet!
> 
> http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...age-of-ultron/


Most things, especially rumors, that get dropped on a Sunday are pretty much overlooked. At this point, we're all in believe-it-when-I-see-it mode anyway.

----------


## Angelo2113

I mentioned the teaser in my previous post. I'm going to wait from there to see what else is true. 

If there's a viewing of the full trailer in a theater near Chicago, I'm definitely going to try and get into that.

----------


## Triple J

I am not excited yet...considering the source.

Anyways, we just have to wait one more day to see whether if it's true or not.

----------


## Triple J

> I think this Vanity Fair article about MacLaren's departure pretty much sums it up:
> 
> “Creative differences” could literally mean anything, but the lack of specificity in the language here is enough to evoke other high-profile director departures like Edgar Wright’s from Marvel’s Ant-Man or Patty Jenkins’s from Thor 2. When taken together, these stories feed into the growing perception that directors with too-strong sensibilities or vision don’t fit in the world of big-budget comic-book franchises, which rely on interlocking films that blend together more than they stand out. Avengers director Joss Whedon diplomatically confirmed this was the case at Marvel in a recent interview about why he was leaving the extremely lucrative franchise. He told Vulture:
> 
> “With so much at stake, there’s gonna be friction. It’s the Marvel way to sort of question everything. Sometimes, that’s amazing. And sometimes” — and here Whedon growled his compliment through gritted teeth, the meaning clear — “that’s amazing.”


That is one thing to consider..when building a cinematic universe, both Marvel and DC need the individual movies to fit within their respective universes...directors may want to follow their own vision, which of course, may lead to problems.

There's good and bad to both sides - allowing directors creative freedom may result in higher quality movies (not guaranteed though)..it may also end up making the character a lot different from the source material.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Today, the BBFC has classified the first BvS teaser: http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/batma...ce-filmtrailer
It'll run for two minutes and six seconds.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> That is one thing to consider..when building a cinematic universe, both Marvel and DC need the individual movies to fit within their respective universes...directors may want to follow their own vision, which of course, may lead to problems.
> 
> There's good and bad to both sides - allowing directors creative freedom may result in higher quality movies (not guaranteed though)..it may also end up making the character a lot different from the source material.


In this particular case, deviating from the source material may very well have been the problem.

In addition to this "talking tiger sidekick" rumor we've seen, there was also a strong indication that the Wonder Woman movie was going to be a period piece, set during either the Crimean War or World War I. Seriously? What do either of those wars have to do with Wonder Woman? World War II? No problem. Her history is with you, there.

Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of Diana being immortal and having a long history. I love the idea of her actually being the oldest of the Trinity. But why do we need an entire movie in order to establish that? The DC heroic age is starting NOW, in the modern world. Establishing that Diana has been doing the hero thing for much longer than that is cool. But it can be established in flashbacks and backstory stuff. Why waste an entire movie on the subject?

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Today, the BBFC has classified the first BvS teaser: http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/batma...ce-filmtrailer
> It'll run for two minutes and six seconds.


What is that poster? With the fire and stuff? That looks cool!!

----------


## Triple J

> Today, the BBFC has classified the first BvS teaser: http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/batma...ce-filmtrailer
> It'll run for two minutes and six seconds.


Not familiar with the site...I am guessing it's a reputable site, since many sites are citing them as a source?

Anyways, awesome news!

----------


## Triple J

Just a question: What would you guys like to see in BvS Trailers?

I would like to see Lex in one of the trailers (just him speaking about the events of MOS - without 'showing' him directly).

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Just a question: What would you guys like to see in BvS Trailers?
> 
> I would like to see Lex in one of the trailers (just him speaking about the events of MOS - without 'showing' him directly).


What I would _not_ like to see is something like the Man of Steel trailers. Sad music with a bunch of gritty imagery and an intense v/o. There's really too much of that in superhero movie trailers.

What I'd like to see is a lot of build up. Maybe a voiceover by Luthor, heavy dark string music by Zimmer, some imagery of Metropolis and Gotham, Perry White, Lois Lane, General Swanwick, maybe some shots of Superman flying around, really fast so we can't seem him clearly, then maybe a back shot of the shirtless Bruce scene we heard about, where he's overlooking Gotham in flames, then a transition to Batman, in the cowl, looking at video footage of Superman on the batcave computer. Then we finally see Luthor, clear as day, finishing his voice over, saying some scary intense stuff, then we get an epic title sequence. The trailer finishes with a two second shot of Batman and Superman colliding. BOOM. 

Hire me, WB.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> What is that poster? With the fire and stuff?


Just a random poster, I guess.




> Not familiar with the site...I am guessing it's a reputable site, since many sites are citing them as a source?


It's the official website of the British Board of Film Classification, the organization responsible for the classification and censorship of movies in the UK.




> Anyways, awesome news!


Yep the trailer is getting closer.




> Just a question: What would you guys like to see in BvS Trailers?


I'd like to see a couple of scenes with Wonder Woman in action. I've already seen Superman in _Man of Steel_ and Batman has been in several movies in the last 25 years. A modern live-action WW is the real novelty for me (Adrianne Palicki doesn't count  :Smile: ).

----------


## Triple J

> What I would _not_ like to see is something like the Man of Steel trailers. Sad music with a bunch of gritty imagery and an intense v/o. There's really too much of that in superhero movie trailers.
> 
> What I'd like to see is a lot of build up. Maybe a voiceover by Luthor, heavy dark string music by Zimmer, some imagery of Metropolis and Gotham, Perry White, Lois Lane, General Swanwick, maybe some shots of Superman flying around, really fast so we can't seem him clearly, then maybe a back shot of the shirtless Bruce scene we heard about, where he's overlooking Gotham in flames, then a transition to Batman, in the cowl, looking at video footage of Superman on the batcave computer. Then we finally see Luthor, clear as day, finishing his voice over, saying some scary intense stuff, then we get an epic title sequence. The trailer finishes with a two second shot of Batman and Superman colliding. BOOM. 
> 
> Hire me, WB.


Woah..I would love to see that!

----------


## DebkoX

That sounds epic...........

----------


## GrandKaiser

Thanks guys!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I love how everyone on the internet (including me) is getting hyped over a trailer, like it is the actual film coming out xD. Imagine when the film actually comes out!! I do not think I have been this excited for a film since The Dark Knight Rises, (can't believe it has been 3 years since that masterpiece came out!)

----------


## golgi

Possible talks for Angelina Jolie to direct Wonder Woman

http://collider.com/could-angelina-j...-wonder-woman/




> Warner Bros.’ Wonder Woman just lost director Michelle MacLaren, and Marvel Studios’ Captain Marvel hasn’t named a director yet. A couple months ago, it was reported that Angelina Jolie was circling Captain Marvel, and we now have confirmation that she’s definitely under consideration for the job. We’re also hearing that there’s the possibility she could direct Wonder Woman now that MacLaren has left the project. Only one studio can get Jolie since Wonder Woman is due in 2017 and Captain Marvel is coming in 2018.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Wasn't she in talks to direct a Marvel film?

----------


## golgi

Looks like Patty Jenkins got it. The one who dropped out of Thor 2.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...rs-very-789069

----------


## Rogue Star

I think Marvel is gunning more for directors who have an easier time working with "showrunners," and that sort of thing is probably the big hang up with Jolie.  I don't think she'll sign on to Captain Marvel.  DC and Wonder Woman might suit her better - I don't see them getting in the way as much.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Looks like Patty Jenkins got it. The one who dropped out of Thor 2.
> 
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...rs-very-789069


Patty Jenkins, huh.  I was SO disappointed that she left Thor 2.  Guess this kills any hope of her doing Thor: Ragnarok.

----------


## Triple J

BvS Trailer




> Imax will debut Warner Bros.’ first full-length trailer for “Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice” next Monday in some of its theaters, sources confirm.
> 
> *The Celebration Cinema theater in Grand Rapids, Mich., disclosed the April 20 event as “Batman vs Superman Imax Trailer Event.” The running time is 15 minutes.*
> 
> A rumor emerged this week on the Latino Review site that director Zack Snyder will debut the first five seconds of the teaser on Thursday through social media.
> 
> Warner Bros. and Imax had no comment. The studio had been planning on a wide release of the trailer for “Batman v Superman” attached to the “Mad Max: Fury Road,” which opens May 15. An earlier release would not only allow WB to attach it to Disney’s “The Avengers” on May 1, but also give the studio a chance to show off footage to exhibitors at next week’s CinemaCon confab in Las Vegas.


Source: http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ser-1201473223

Variety is a more reputable source - now, I am excited!

----------


## Robotman

Wow nicely done WB! Great choice for a replacement! I really wasn't expecting someone as good as Jenkins to replace MacLaren. I figured they'd get a little known director who would basically follow orders. The fact that they replaced her so fast is also pretty impressive. People can already start forgetting about the "controversy" and once again get excited for the movie.

----------


## Triple J

> Looks like Patty Jenkins got it. The one who dropped out of Thor 2.
> 
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...rs-very-789069


Wow, that was pretty fast.

I think MacLaren might have left the project a while ago..and WB/DC hired Patty Jenkins later. It's possible that we are only hearing about it now.

----------


## Robotman

> BvS Trailer
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ser-1201473223
> 
> Variety is a more reputable source - now, I am excited!


15 minute trailer?!? Holy crap! Must find a theater that is playing this!

----------


## Triple J

> 15 minute trailer?!? Holy crap! Must find a theater that is playing this!


I am wondering about that. They report it as a Trailer event. Wondering what that is...any ideas? 15 mins of trailer seems....odd.

But, hey maybe they are doing it.

Maybe it's a small trailer + promos for the other movies  :Big Grin:

----------


## golgi

> I am wondering about that. They report it as a Trailer event. Wondering what that is...any ideas? 15 mins of trailer seems....odd.
> 
> But, hey maybe they are doing it.
> 
> Maybe it's a small trailer + promos for the other movies


Nah, the trailer will be 2 minutes and 6 seconds. It's probably going to be an intro by Zack Snyder himself.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

It feels so close... yet so far away.

All of it.

----------


## Triple J

Ike Barinholtz talks about SS



Source: DC Cinematic Universe Fan page

----------


## Prime

Isn't Lex supposed to show up in Suicide Squad?

----------


## Triple J

> Isn't Lex supposed to show up in Suicide Squad?


There were some rumors/reports regarding that. Not sure if it's true. Perhaps he might show up in a scene or two.

----------


## golgi

Oh, hell yeah! It is ON!

https://twitter.com/zacksnyder/statu...28448827621376

Amazing music already.

----------


## Pinsir

DC has won! Repent now sinners!

----------


## The Kid

Get on the hype train!!

----------


## GrandKaiser

How do I get to see a screening??

----------


## Triple J

Awesome!

Just plain awesome!

----------


## Hypo

> How do I get to see a screening??


http://www.batmanvsupermandawnofjustice.com/imax/

----------


## GrandKaiser

> http://www.batmanvsupermandawnofjustice.com/imax/


Okay but how? I already have an account with WB Tickets now what?

----------


## Jabare

wow I really let the hype get to me for this teaser.

Will go back to waiting for the actual trailer. Hoping to see Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Cyborg

----------


## Triple J

> Okay but how? I already have an account with WB Tickets now what?


It seems that you need a code (Not even sure how you get it?).

Man..it's filling up fast. Full in my area, checked couple of other states; they are changing.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> It seems that you need a code (Not even sure how you get it?).
> 
> Man..it's filling up fast. Full in my area, checked couple of other states; they are changing.


I don't understand. How many people are going to be able to go if most are just going to be making accounts now without getting a code? How does one even get a code? Man, I would love to get one.

----------


## Triple J

> I don't understand. How many people are going to be able to go if most are just going to be making accounts now without getting a code? How does one even get a code? Man, I would love to get one.


I believe they were reserving it for industry people..not even sure. I am checking social media accounts, and many writers (like Mark Hughes of Forbes) have said that they already have tickets.

At the same time, I see people commenting that they got ticket...not even sure, how it works.

Oh, well....I just hope we will get an online trailer on Monday.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I believe they were reserving it for industry people..not even sure. I am checking social media accounts, and many writers (like Mark Hughes of Forbes) have said that they already have tickets.
> 
> At the same time, I see people commenting that they got ticket...not even sure, how it works.
> 
> Oh, well....I just hope we will get an online trailer on Monday.


A few of my friends have tickets, so I don't know. And I hope so too! I'm so excited.

----------


## Angelo2113

I took a screenshot of the new Batsuit...

Screenshot (112).jpg

----------


## Angelo2113

> Wow, that was pretty fast.
> 
> I think MacLaren might have left the project a while ago..and WB/DC hired Patty Jenkins later. It's possible that we are only hearing about it now.


That was my thinking, as well. It seems too coincidental that they announce one director leaving and then a very short while after they announce a new one. Looking forward to see what she'll bring.

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

> That was my thinking, as well. It seems too coincidental that they announce one director leaving and then a very short while after they announce a new one. Looking forward to see what she'll bring.


I had no idea Patty Jenkins was the new director. Like the choice already!

----------


## Starchild

Wasn't there supposed to be a five second teaser that comes out at 9am?

----------


## Clark_Kent

The 20-second clip doesn't give us much, but it tells us plenty about Affleck's suit. The cowl was at SDCC, so we knew it was black, but under this lighting it has a bluish hue to it (kind of like black hair that looks blue in sunlight)...and although it's difficult to tell with my colorblindness, the grayish suit looks similar. So while it looks like the suit from the second half of TDKR (issues 3 & 4), it might also please some fans of the blue & gray look under certain lights. 

Again, I'm colorblind, but that's how it looks to me, so I may be wrong. 

Also, we get a sense of his physicality here; look at how scratched & scuffed up it is. Reminds me of the Arkham suits about 8 hours in lol

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Wasn't there supposed to be a five second teaser that comes out at 9am?


We got 20 seconds last night.

----------


## Rogue Star

> DC has won! Repent now sinners!


Can't we all just get along?!

----------


## GrandKaiser

I had a dream this morning half asleep that I was watching the 20 second teaser and hearing Ben Affleck's Batman voice. In my dream it sounded like a partial whisper with a soft growl at the end of his words. It sounded great to me but it was just a dream so take it with a grain of salt. Either way my dreams are still a more reliable source than Latino Review...  :Wink:

----------


## DebkoX

The batsuit looks badass.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Jared Leto teases another step of his transformation into Joker:



Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/04/16/jare...suicide-squad/

----------


## Pinsir

> Can't we all just get along?!


There can only be one!

----------


## colonyofcells

Dc needs to move faster to catch up with Marvel movies. If some dc properties are too lame, just make improvements so that these properties will be good enough for the movies.

----------


## Pinsir

> Dc needs to move faster to catch up with Marvel movies. If some dc properties are too lame, just make improvements so that these properties will be good enough for the movies.


Its not a race.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Possible leaked Batman v Superman trailer: https://twitter.com/MuDragon/status/...937344/video/1

----------


## GrandKaiser

It could be legit. I've never seen that shot of Superman crashing into the ground before, but that very first shot looks like that scene from TDKR where Batman is standing on the bridge looking over Gotham, so I don't know.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Get it while it's hot:

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=118793


The title bothers me with the usage of "vs" instead of "v". But that could be different in a foreign market, I dunno.

----------


## Triple J

> It could be legit. I've never seen that shot of Superman crashing into the ground before, but that very first shot looks like that scene from TDKR where Batman is standing on the bridge looking over Gotham, so I don't know.


I believe it is legit. Not the trailer though..just the last 30 seconds, I guess. Remember, the trailer is 2 mins and 6 secs long  :Big Grin:

----------


## Nite-Wing

Do you bleed?
????
You will

I think that's what Batman is saying

----------


## Triple J

I translated the words in the first image.




> The world is so excited about what he can do


Who do you guys think said that?

Could be Lois..or maybe even Lex.

----------


## luffyq1

> Do you bleed?
> ????
> You will
> 
> I think that's what Batman is saying


Yup it is.

----------


## Triple J

All taken down......alright, let's wait till Monday for a high quality, full trailer.

----------


## Pinsir

> Do you bleed?
> ????
> You will
> 
> I think that's what Batman is saying


Its already been hailed as the newest form of Bane posting. Once again, only DC can create memes!

----------


## BohemiaDrinker

> Get it while it's hot:
> 
> http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=118793
> 
> 
> The title bothers me with the usage of "vs" instead of "v". But that could be different in a foreign market, I dunno.


Brazilian Portuguese. The leak came from here. And it's legit.

----------


## The Kid

"Do you bleed"
"You will"


I'm ready for Batfleck

----------


## Black_Adam

Still up guys! Watch and drool while you can.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Brazilian Portuguese. The leak came from here. And it's legit.


Well, I knew it was Brazilian; what I meant was I didn't know if the title was 'V' around the world, or only in America. Because the end of this clip says Batman 'VS' Superman, and also uses "vs" in the hashtag. And as we know, that is not the way the title has been written since its announcement. But again, maybe the 'v' as reference to court proceedings is not used in other countries...since I don't know the answer to that, it bothers me to see vs in the title until it's confirmed as real.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> It could be legit. I've never seen that shot of Superman crashing into the ground before, but that very first shot looks like that scene from TDKR where Batman is standing on the bridge looking over Gotham, so I don't know.


I saw it before WB shut down every link online.

Glorious (even in that shitty quality)!!

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Dc needs to move faster to catch up with Marvel movies. If some dc properties are too lame, just make improvements so that these properties will be good enough for the movies.


"The race goes not to the swift. . ."

----------


## BohemiaDrinker

> Well, I knew it was Brazilian; what I meant was I didn't know if the title was 'V' around the world, or only in America. Because the end of this clip says Batman 'VS' Superman, and also uses "vs" in the hashtag. And as we know, that is not the way the title has been written since its announcement. But again, maybe the 'v' as reference to court proceedings is not used in other countries...since I don't know the answer to that, it bothers me to see vs in the title until it's confirmed as real.


I meant that that is the oficial translation for brazilian portuguese. Batman vs Superman: A Origem da Justiça". That's been out for months now.

And believe me, it's real.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Jared Leto teases another step of his transformation into Joker:
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/04/16/jare...suicide-squad/



I have been trying my best to avoid having anything Joker spoiled for me.  




> Dc needs to move faster to catch up with Marvel movies. If some dc properties are too lame, just make improvements so that these properties will be good enough for the movies.


Just how many movies would you suggest DC pumps out a year then? Just be glad you're finally getting a Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, and even a Cyborg movie at all.

----------


## Triple J

*Details regarding the trailer*




> Monday, April 20, 2015 at 9am PDT
> 
> Zack Snyder tweets the teaser one sheet to further build excitement.
> Monday, April 20, 2015 at 7pm local time 
> The ENHANCED trailer is screened in Imax theaters in US, Canada with an exclusive intro from Zack Snyder. 
> Show flow:
> 
> Zack Intro (he asks fans not to video tape the footage) – 20 seconds
> ENHANCED Trailer – 2 mins and 11 seconds
> ...


Source: http://indierevolver.com/2015/04/16/...ation-details/

Keep in mind, I don't know the source..just found it through a DC fan page...he mentions that he got it from his friend (who is attending the event on Mon).

If it's true, looks like we will get the trailer on Tue.

Also wondering what the 'digest' will be...any news on future DC films?

----------


## golgi

I just saw the trailer. OMG! Affleck's Batman voice is waaay better than Bale's. No contest.

----------


## BohemiaDrinker

Full trailer has leaked.

Look around, as of now is not that hard to find.

----------


## TheDarkNut

Trailer gave me goosebumps. Batfleck sounds great. No more Bale Batman voice.

----------


## The Kid

Batman is gonna be so badass in this movie. Got chills when he was talking

----------


## Nite-Wing

Batman is huge now much bigger than Bale's Batman
I like Afflecks Batman voice too not really the same since its modulated but very intimidating

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

The old kings are dead, long live the new king.

----------


## sicsexsix

If you don't want to wait til Monday....

https://www.facebook.com/Usman.Kazmi...1/?pnref=story

----------


## GrandKaiser

My theory about Batman lowering the pitch of his voice may be correct...either way he sounds awesome, and that trailer was awesome! I saw Theymiscara! A temple of some sort. That was awesome. 

And really? Why did they build a statue of Superman? Did he die and come back already?

----------


## Triple J

Nooooo!

Man..as much as I wanted to see it; I didn't want it to leak it out. Hopefully, WB will take them down as soon as they can (I believe they already are).

I am not going to watch it till Tue (unless they happen to release it officially early..because it was leaked).

----------


## Jadeb

Interesting take on the voice. I like it ... I think. Trailer gives Batman a very villainous cast. He looks tremendously imposing. 

The shot of him looking over the city reminded me of the Nolan series.

The rest of it lined up with the rumors we've heard, but it seemed a bit dour. It makes sense, I suppose, but it wasn't terribly exciting. Hope we get to see Cavill's Superman find some happiness and become a figure of hope.

----------


## Jadeb

> Nooooo!
> 
> Man..as much as I wanted to see it; I didn't want it to leak it out. Hopefully, WB will take them down as soon as they can (I believe they already are).
> 
> I am not going to watch it till Tue (unless they happen to release it officially early..because it was leaked).


I'd suggest waiting, TBH.

----------


## luffyq1

> I just saw the trailer. OMG! Affleck's Batman voice is waaay better than Bale's. No contest.


100% agreed.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Judging from the trailer the movie definitely seems to have more Superman focus than I thought it would. Granted, it is a sequel to Man of Steel, but the rumors seemed to indicate that Batman was a main character and could possibly be the general focus of the film. He might not be. I agree that he does seem imposing. He sounds dark, and not in an angry way, in an eerily _calm_ way. It's a bit terrifying. That front shot of him, though...wow. I can't wait to see the Bruce Wayne shot in HD. The camera seems to linger on him for a while. 

Hope I'm not spoiling the trailer for anyone, I just felt like doing a mini review.

----------


## Triple J

> I'd suggest waiting, TBH.


I am going to try  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jadeb

> I am going to try


If it makes it easier, the quality is very poor and it has subtitles that are distracting.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I am going to try


It doesn't matter anyway, both Batman and Superman are KILLED OFF in the trailer.  :Cool:

----------


## colonyofcells

Batman sounds like Sweetums from the muppet show.

----------


## Jadeb

> It doesn't matter anyway, both Batman and Superman are KILLED OFF in the trailer.


Interesting artistic choice to have them both killed by Adam West. Guess Snyder took the MoS criticism hard. But hey, we're getting a multiverse at the multiplex.

----------


## Triple J

> If it makes it easier, the quality is very poor and it has subtitles that are distracting.


That is helpful; thanks  :Big Grin:

----------


## M L A

Dat Batfleck

----------


## Black_Adam

Affleck looking the goods so far!

His voice sounds good but I think is synthesised in that scene he is in the mech-TDKR suit and it certainly sounds that way.

Already a 100% improvement on Bale though.

----------


## Blackest Knight

Variety has posted the trailer!

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ne-1201474431/

Very Batman centric. But yes, Affleck's voice for Batman is perfect!

Going back to watch it again and again. Will look for Themyscira!  :Smile:

----------


## Rogue Star

dang it! I missed it again!

----------


## Triple J

> Variety has posted the trailer!
> 
> http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ba...ne-1201474431/
> 
> Very Batman centric. But yes, Affleck's voice for Batman is perfect!
> 
> Going back to watch it again and again. Will look for Themyscira!


Video was deleted  :Big Grin:  (Yes, I am sort of happy  :Stick Out Tongue: !).

----------


## JBladeus

As expected, that was epic.
It also doesn't seem to have the grey filter which they had in MOS.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Affleck looking the goods so far!
> 
> His voice sounds good but I think is synthesised in that scene he is in the mech-TDKR suit and it certainly sounds that way.
> 
> Already a 100% improvement on Bale though.


And this normal Batman looks like CGI but it might not be.....

----------


## Rogue Star

Woo hoo! Finally saw it.  So glad to get that out of the way.  Now for my thoughts: honestly... it was so grim looking that my enthusiasm plummeted. I understand that it's just a teaser though so I'll keep my hopes up that I won't be battling depression after walking out of the movie theater like this trailer leads me to believe I will be.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Video was deleted  (Yes, I am sort of happy !).


Oh, there are others!  There.are.others!  mu-hahahahahahaha!

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Video was deleted  (Yes, I am sort of happy !).


Not for me. I've never closed the link and have watched it 8 or 9 times already.

Try reloading!

----------


## Triple J

> Oh, there are others!  There.are.others!  mu-hahahahahahaha!


Nooooo..Like Zod said, I will find them..okay, WB will :Big Grin: 




> Not for me. I've never closed the link and have watched it 8 or 9 times already.
> 
> Try reloading!


Nah..I want all of them taken down  :Stick Out Tongue:  So we will get a proper trailer on Tue  :Big Grin:

----------


## Black_Adam

> Nah..I want all of them taken down  So we will get a proper trailer on Tue


Dude don't spoil our fun! We have waited so long for this moment let us have it.  :Wink:

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Dude don't spoil our fun! We have waited so long for this moment let us have it.


I have to agree.

It is all over the internet. Just Google it. You won't have a hard time finding it.

Yeah, it's dark...but epic. And it's a total tease. They're clearly saving the major stuff for SDCC. I'm expecting Wonder Woman footage there and absolutely will not miss it.

Again, this is a teaser. Nothing more. But it's a good tease. Very epic, no doubt about it--yet it manages to hold back all the cool fight scenes and images fans really want (like WW, Aquaman, Luthor, Victor Stone, etc.)

Definitely worth checking out--and expect WB to release a better version ASAP. They will want to control the leaks and give fans a better quality online video.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Oh, there are others!  There.are.others!  mu-hahahahahahaha!





> Nooooo..Like Zod said, I will find them..okay, WB will


And like Hydra says, "Cut off one head and two more shall take its place."  >;3

----------


## Kid A

Getting kind of tired of the whole joyless grim schtick.   Scarecrow put it best.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Getting kind of tired of the whole joyless grim schtick.   Scarecrow put it best.


On the contrary, Warner Brothers tried to copy Marvel's style with Green Lantern and people ripped them to shreds. They're going for epic spectacle here and it's a smart move.

Also, everyone shouldn't forget that WB is working on lighter fare with both Shazam and in a very pleasant surprise, with The Lego Movie creators writing The Flash movie.

There is far too little in this teaser for anyone to overreact to. It's good, but they don't give everything away here--which is smart. And it looks well-made. Way, way too early to start jumping to conclusions. I'd say we wait until the bigger reveals at SDCC (which I expect/hope will also include some early Suicide Squad footage).

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> On the contrary, Warner Brothers tried to copy Marvel's style with Green Lantern and people ripped them to shreds. They're going for epic spectacle here and it's a smart move.
> 
> Also, everyone shouldn't forget that WB is working on lighter fare with both Shazam and in a very pleasant surprise, with The Lego Movie creators writing The Flash movie.
> 
> There is far too little in this teaser for anyone to overreact to. It's good, but they don't give everything away here--which is smart. And it looks well-made. Way, way too early to start jumping to conclusions. I'd say we wait until the bigger reveals at SDCC (which I expect/hope will also include some early Suicide Squad footage).


Not to mention

1) All the scenes were set either at night or underground

2) The subtitle is DAWN of Justice. I figure that the true heroism and "light" will be seen by the end of the film.

----------


## The Kid

> Getting kind of tired of the whole joyless grim schtick.   Scarecrow put it best.


Yep. I don't want it to be completely full of humor but complete grim dark isn't something I want either. I still don't trust Zack Snyder at all to run the DCCU but I'm hoping for the best

----------


## Doctor Know

Vox has the camrip trailer. See it before it's gone. 

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/16/8438743...ustice-trailer


Super excited!

----------


## Black_Adam

It is dark because most of the footage seems to be set in Gotham. We saw what looked like a glimpse of Themyscira and we will definitely get Metropolis and maybe even Atlantis which will all have a completely different aesthetic to Gotham, so everyone relax before bringing out the pitchforks and torches.




> There is far too little in this teaser for anyone to overreact to. It's good, but they don't give everything away here--which is smart. And it looks well-made. Way, way too early to start jumping to conclusions. I'd say we wait until the bigger reveals at SDCC (which I expect/hope will also include some early Suicide Squad footage).


Exactly, this is a teaser... Movie is still nearly a year out. Aquaman, WW, Cyborg, Lex, Alfred, the "big bad" possibly Doomsday, there is so much left.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> It is dark because most of the footage seems to be set in Gotham. We saw what looked like a glimpse of Themyscira and we will definitely get Metropolis and maybe even Atlantis which will all have a completely different aesthetic to Gotham, so everyone relax before bringing out the pitchforks and torches.
> 
> Exactly, this is a teaser... Movie is still nearly a year out. Aquaman, WW, Cyborg, Lex, Alfred, the "big bad" possibly Doomsday, there is so much left.


Thank you for saying so! We are in total agreement.  :Smile: 

RE: rumors of Themyscira
Nope. There's a shot of what appears to be someone holding a sword in a rundown ruin with columns. But after watching it 2 dozen times and also freeze-framing it, it's clearly Batman standing in front of the new Batmobile.  In fact, it looks like the set for the very first pic of Batman that we saw over a year ago.

Trust me--after watching and rewatching this repeatedly for the past hour, there's no WW footage anywhere. Darn it.  :Frown: 

RE: so much left
Yes, you are absolutely right. This is a very clever teaser. If you remove the voiceovers? It's basically an extended run of last year's BVS footage with several panning shots of Metropolis and a few shots of Superman flying or landing. No big fight scenes. No other DC heroes. Mostly things we have already seen: the Batmobile, the TDKR armor, etc.

All the big money shots are being saved for SDCC. This is a classic teaser trailer that runs for 2 minutes and it ends up giving barely anything away.

The one payoff for me in this? Hearing Eisenberg's Luthor narration. He sounds perfect for the role and I can't wait to see more.

----------


## GrandKaiser

I thought the teaser was fantastic...freakin' Neil Degrasse Tyson is in it! What more do you want? I loved the different shots of Superman and loved that scene where the soldiers are bowing in front of him. I loved hearing the different people talk about him and his actions. I loved the shots of the batwing and of Batman himself. I loved the dark imagery and I loved Batman's voice. I don't get it.

----------


## Black_Adam

Spoilers for Jeevanjacobjohn and any other brave souls left waiting. :P

question mark1.jpg

Check it out, graffiti bottom left hand corner, possible Riddler easter egg?

----------


## Blackest Knight

> Not to mention
> 
> 1) All the scenes were set either at night or underground
> 
> 2) The subtitle is DAWN of Justice. I figure that the true heroism and "light" will be seen by the end of the film.



Agreed on both counts. It's a cliche, but it *is* true: it's darkest before the dawn. That's the whole point. Night falls and then justice dawns.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> I thought the teaser was fantastic...freakin' Neil Degrasse Tyson is in it! What more do you want? I loved the different shots of Superman and loved that scene where the soldiers are bowing in front of him. I loved hearing the different people talk about him and his actions. I loved the shots of the batwing and of Batman himself. I loved the dark imagery and I loved Batman's voice. I don't get it.


Holy crap, that was Neil Degrasse Tyson in the multiple voiceovers? Wow! Good catch!  :Embarrassment: 

Other posters at forums on other sites noted that Charlie Rose was also in the mix.  All-in-all, I'd say the best little surprises lie in figuring out who all the narrators were: Lex Luthor, Alfred Pennyworth, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Charlie Rose and whoever Holly Hunter is playing. (If that's Leslie Tomkins, well, she certainly had some pretty harsh things to say about Superman...hmmm...)

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

WOW!!

That's all.


WOW!!!

----------


## Robotman

holy. shit.

that was amazing! Dark as hell but as it's already been pointed out im sure they're doing that "it's always darkest before the dawn" bit. i've heard rumors that the ending is very uplifting when they start showing the Dawn of the Justice League. 

love how Batman has decided to find out once and for all if the alien can be trusted. he's going to provoke the hell out of him and see if he truly is on the side of the angels. psychologically and physically test him like only Batman can. 




> Holy crap, that was Neil Degrasse Tyson in the multiple voiceovers? Wow! Good catch! 
> 
> Other posters at forums on other sites noted that Charlie Rose was also in the mix.  All-in-all, I'd say the best little surprises lie in figuring out who all the narrators were: Lex Luthor, Alfred Pennyworth, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Charlie Rose and whoever Holly Hunter is playing. (If that's Leslie Tomkins, well, she certainly had some pretty harsh things to say about Superman...hmmm...)


i so did not notice Neil Degrase Tyson as one of the voices! that makes it so much cooler! 
Dr. Tyson did appear in a back up story in Action Comics, so him and Superman are already tight  :Smile: 

now that it's leaked and a number of people have already seen it they should move up the official release.

----------


## Username taken

Saw the trailer.

A bit dark but I like the tone they are going for.

Looked epic.

----------


## Robotman

i like the theme that Superman has the weight of the world on his shoulders. if he's the most powerful being on the planet everything he does will have vast repercussions. 
hopefully Kal will be the sympathetic figure and Batman will look like the a$$hole for once.

----------


## Username taken

The trailer is everywhere, WB will need to release it early.

----------


## Username taken

> i like the theme that Superman has the weight of the world on his shoulders. if he's the most powerful being on the planet everything he does will have vast repercussions. 
> hopefully Kal will be the sympathetic figure and Batman will look like the a$$hole for once.


Quoted in agreement.

----------


## BohemiaDrinker

> The trailer is everywhere, WB will need to release it early.


I find it very unlikely that they'll release early.

But they could make some last-time adjustments to show a little more stuff, make their imax event look worthy.

----------


## Black_Adam

> I loved the different shots of Superman and loved that scene where the soldiers are bowing in front of him. I loved hearing the different people talk about him and his actions.


Yes this shot had me the most curious of all when the soldiers were bowing to him, wonder what the deal is in that scene, maybe some foreign military who are absolutely terrified of him.





> The trailer is everywhere, WB will need to release it early.


Best case scenario: they release it and give everyone who is going to IMAX a brand new trailer to make up for the leak!  :Big Grin:

----------


## colonyofcells

The people bowing to superman could be from the church of superman or maybe they just want autographs.

----------


## Robotman

ok, this is what im really hoping will happen during the clash. the boys are fighting, by which i mean Batman is throwing everything in his arsenal at Superman and Supes is basically playing defense. after some epic scenes Wonder Woman makes an amazing entrance and basically beats them both. you can always rationalize it by saying that Bruce is 20 years into his career and far past his prime and Kal has only been Superman for two years and basically has no real fighting technique. 
Diana needs to steal the show in this movie. she needs to be what the Hulk was in Avengers.

----------


## colonyofcells

My guess is Batman is smart enough to know that Superman is a good guy and the 2 decide to eat shawarma together.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

Didn't show a lot but nice. That Lex voice was great.

----------


## Pinsir

I'm going to repost what I said from another thread (there are like 3...)




> Wow! I saw this a few hours ago and I can't stop thinking about it! Its just so different!
> 
> I really have to commend Snyder for clamping down and going forward. This trailer certainly isn't going to make allies of people who disliked MoS for 'not being' Superman. My mom is also going to hate it...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

OH MY GOD!! THIS IS PERFECT. LEX AND BATMANS VOICE sound really good.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Getting kind of tired of the whole joyless grim schtick.   Scarecrow put it best.


When you look at all the other mainstream action blockbuster movies coming out, not even just Marvel, virtually all of them are the same tonally, so strictly speaking I'd say this is actually a breath of fresh air and something that clearly differentiates it from the other movies.

----------


## Pinsir

> When you look at all the other mainstream action blockbuster movies coming out, not even just Marvel, virtually all of them are the same tonally, so strictly speaking I'd say this is actually a breath of fresh air and something that clearly differentiates it from the other movies.


Yeah, it really is a red hearing. If you don't want to watch this movie there is going to be 4 marvel films you can watch instead by the time this comes out.

----------


## Pinsir

Not sure if this has been said here or not btw, but one of the other voices in the trailer is Neil deGrass Tyson, also the woman in the trailer sounds familiar. Honestly it sounds like Elizebeth Warren. If it is this film is going to have so many meta themes to it.

Also

*spoilers:*
I think one of the scenes in the trailer may be the subway station where Supes vanquished Zod
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Doctor Know

> Yeah, it really is a red hearing. If you don't want to watch this movie there is going to be 4 marvel films you can watch instead by the time this comes out.


But those are dark too.
Avengers AoU is bringing on the "destruction porn".

Fantastic Four is dark.

Civil War will also be dark.

Deadpool will likely be a black comedy action movie. 

X-Men Apocalypse? With the 4 horsemen and end of days theme? Forget about it.

----------


## Pinsir

> But those are dark too.
> Avengers AoU is bringing on the "destruction porn".
> 
> Fantastic Four is dark.
> 
> Civil War will also be dark.
> 
> Deadpool will likely be a black comedy action movie. 
> 
> X-Men Apocalypse? With the 4 horsemen and end of days theme? Forget about it.


Even if the film has dark moments that doesn't mean the whole thing will be (though I do find it amusing that Ultron is going to out MoS MoS in destruction porn). Ant-Man certainly won't be dark.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Other posters at forums on other sites noted that Charlie Rose was also in the mix.  All-in-all, I'd say the best little surprises lie in figuring out who all the narrators were: Lex Luthor, Alfred Pennyworth, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Charlie Rose and whoever Holly Hunter is playing. (If that's Leslie Tomkins, well, she certainly had some pretty harsh things to say about Superman...hmmm...)


Her official role is "US Senator" so I doubt she's Leslie. More than likely she's Lex's mouthpiece in the Senate.

----------


## Triple J

Heh...looks like I should avoid the thread till Tue (or till WB posts the trailer; hopefully, sooner than later).

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

I won't look at any leaked footage, but I'm just wondering if the trailer hints at another villain besides Luthor? If so, don't mention the name, just confirm or deny please!

----------


## Batarang

The trailer looks awesome...  :Big Grin:  i was just reading Batman Superman vol 2: Game Over  when The Trailer leaked.  :Smile:  I hope Batman will beat Superman cause Superman trolled him in Batman Superman vol. 2 issue 1... i want revenge !  :Big Grin:

----------


## Black_Adam

> When you look at all the other mainstream action blockbuster movies coming out, not even just Marvel, virtually all of them are the same tonally, so strictly speaking I'd say this is actually a breath of fresh air and something that clearly differentiates it from the other movies.


Exactly.

And we throw around the term "dark" way too easily now, it is like any comic book movie which tries to do more than simply make jokes to appeal to the lowest common denominator is considered "dark".

None of these movies are dark, the Nolan films were not dark they were grounded and steeped in realism.

WB/DC movies are different yes, but I would say they are more visceral and somber, it isn't for everyone, but personally I like them and going back to something like Green Lantern ehh no thanks.




> I won't look at any leaked footage, but I'm just wondering if the trailer hints at another villain besides Luthor? If so, don't mention the name, just confirm or deny please!


No it doesn't unfortunately.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Even if the film has dark moments that doesn't mean the whole thing will be (*though I do find it amusing that Ultron is going to out MoS MoS in destruction porn*). Ant-Man certainly won't be dark.


@Bold
I do hope Mark Waid and all the other critics who castigated MOS for his destruction, will likewise condemn AoU for it's assumed level of chaos. Jesus, that bridge scene in the second trailer though?

Although I doubt it.

----------


## Monkey Genius

> @Bold
> I do hope Mark Waid and all the other critics who castigated MOS for his destruction, will likewise condemn AoU for it's assumed level of chaos. Jesus, that bridge scene in the second trailer though?
> 
> Although I doubt it.


Whedon has already said that they learned from the MOS backlash (he didn't call it out by name). You're definitely gonna see the Avengers rescuing people in the midst of the destruction. And people who've already seen AOU say it's darker but still full of Whedon-y comedy. 

I prefer the more serious DC movies myself, but Avengers 2 isn't gonna be the 'gotcha' justification that some of us might want it to be.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> No it doesn't unfortunately.


Thanks. That's strange, the rumors of a second Superman villain seemed pretty credible. Either they were false, or Snyder/WB are playing him/her/it extremely close to their chest. I guess another option is that Chris Terrio might have thrown that character out of the window when he came in and rewrote the script. 




> @Bold
> I do hope Mark Waid and all the other critics who castigated MOS for his destruction, will likewise condemn AoU for it's assumed level of chaos. Jesus, that bridge scene in the second trailer though?
> 
> Although I doubt it.


I think the general idea of that critique is that it had no place in a Superman story, and that the Marvel characters have a bit more leeway when it comes to negative consequences of actions. Which is an idea that I think is very problematic on it's own, but there you have it.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Thanks. That's strange, the rumors of a second Superman villain seemed pretty credible. Either they were false, or Snyder/WB are playing him/her/it extremely close to their chest. I guess another option is that Chris Terrio might have thrown that character out of the window when he came in and rewrote the script.


Honestly it is just way too early to tell, without spoiling it the trailer doesn't reveal a whole lot which we don't know already.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Whedon has already said that they learned from the MOS backlash (he didn't call it out by name). You're definitely gonna see the Avengers rescuing people in the midst of the destruction. And people who've already seen AOU say it's darker but still full of Whedon-y comedy. 
> 
> I prefer the more serious DC movies myself, but Avengers 2 isn't gonna be the 'gotcha' justification that some of us might want it to be.


I thought Whedon said he avoided MOS spoilers. Saying he didn't want it to influence him. Looking at the Hulk Buster v Hulk clips; you get a Supes v Zod vibe.

Wholly independent mind you given the strength of the characters but i see a double standard looming when everyone sees AoU.




> I think the general idea of that critique is that it had no place in a Superman story, and that the Marvel characters have a bit more leeway when it comes to negative consequences of actions. Which is an idea that I think is very problematic on it's own, but there you have it.


And yet how many Superman stories feature the level of destruction MOS displayed? How many stories penned by Waid (his Superman and JLA run) feature MOS level of destruction and Waid still complained?

The Marvel characters get a pass sure, but then again they are fighting a largely cannon fodder army...for the second time! The Chituari and Ultron bots exist to give the Avengers something to punch for 30+ minutes, while not posing a threat due to hero shields and Whedon avoid (in Avengers 2012) showing the villains killing any civilians that may be caught in the crossfire of the battle.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I won't look at any leaked footage, but I'm just wondering if the trailer hints at another villain besides Luthor? If so, don't mention the name, just confirm or deny please!


I guess, but only another regular human non-civilian villain. 

And this is a kinda spoiler but not really, but possibly Batman, who seems far more menacing and bitter than you might've first thought, least going by what Alfred said.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Lighting is pretty dark in this trailer. But that Batman voice, why on Earth does it sound robotic if the face is open? And if it is a clear material around the face why the hell wouldn't he simply cover it?

Feels more like a Batman trailer which isn't surprising given Batman is far more successful in the movies than superman, but that being said I have to ask why is wonder woman in this movie? The trailer makes it out to be that superman develops a God complex and Batman wants him taken down. That on its own can carry a movie. But instead DC needs to be edgy and dark in contrast to the ever marketable Marvel and play catch up to rival the Avengers franchise. Not saying the trailer is bad but it does look to be continuing the trend from Man of Steel.

Dawn of justice (dumb name, decent trailer) gives hope that this might be a smart film with superman learning he can't be everywhere and even progress the story of these heroes but after Man of Steel I will await and see.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

I can't trust the opinion of a man who recommends a Linkara video in his signature.

----------


## byrd156

> I can't trust the opinion of a man who recommends a Linkara video in his signature.


What's wrong with Linkara?

I don't mind the robotic voice because he is in the armor suit. I doubt he will have that voice throughout the whole movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I didn't get the vibe that Superman has developed a God complex at all. I think some people see a trailer for a sequel to a filmthey didn't like & then project the dislike onto it. It certainly didn't seem like a "Batman movie more than a Superman movie" either...the entire thing is people talking about Clark. 

Snyder, way back during MOS promotion, said that they wanted to put Superman into a realistic setting -- i.e., that the world would react realistically to his presence as they would if it happened in our world. And I LOVE that idea. Think about it...if Superman showed up tomorrow in real life, the following things would all happen: 

 Some would call him the Second Coming of Jesus. 

 Some would call him the Anti-Christ & a false prophet. 

 Some would want to learn from him. 

 Some would want to dissect him. 

 Some would idolize him. 

 Some would be pants-shittingly afraid of the alien. 


He would garner 24/7 talking-heads discussion on every news network. The top scientists would offer explanations. World's religions would be in a fervor. And, like in the trailer, some people  who do trust him would wonder if this guy would  ever become corrupted. MOS was his first day on the job; it's going to take more than defeating Zod to be the ultimate symbol of hope for the world, and I do believe we'll be there by the end of this film (we have lots of DCCU films coming, and plenty of time to see Superman loved by all; I see no reason not to take some time to show how he got there). 

Why should the world automatically trust him like they have in every single other version? Don't forget, to most people in that world, * he is an alien with powers who fought multiple aliens with powers all by himself and he came out on top...he's still an alien, but now people know he #1, basically. Of course there is going to be fear there.*  

As others here have said, it's always darkest before the dawn. I'm enjoying the (so far) positive reactions I'm seeing here & around the net. It won't last long (the kurusowa boys will be out soon to whine because this isn't Reeve smiling & waving to us), but I'm enjoying it while it's here!

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

http://whatculture.com/film/12-iconi...adapt-next.php

what culture did a article on 12 different storylines dc should adapt next. Do you agree/disagree and have your own?

----------


## Doctor Know

Coincidentally, in January DC released a TPB of Roger Stern's 1990 storyline "The Power Within". Which dealt with a cult worshiping Supes as a god.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> http://whatculture.com/film/12-iconi...adapt-next.php
> 
> what culture did a article on 12 different storylines dc should adapt next. Do you agree/disagree and have your own?


Court of owls would be brilliant for a solo Batman film.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

The BvS trailer is awesome. I didn't expect anything different from Snyder. Let's see how the whole movie will be.

I loved this scene:

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Snyder, way back during MOS promotion, said that they wanted to put Superman into a realistic setting -- i.e., that the world would react realistically to his presence as they would if it happened in our world. And I LOVE that idea. Think about it...if Superman showed up tomorrow in real life, the following things would all happen: 
> 
> • Some would call him the Second Coming of Jesus. 
> 
> • Some would call him the Anti-Christ & a false prophet. 
> 
> • Some would want to learn from him. 
> 
> • Some would want to dissect him. 
> ...


Whoa, someone got it. 




> http://whatculture.com/film/12-iconi...adapt-next.php
> 
> what culture did a article on 12 different storylines dc should adapt next. Do you agree/disagree and have your own?


Just about every single idea there is awful. New World Order is the main exception but even then that's because it's just the basic "aliens come to earth and superheroes fight them" at its premise.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The trailer looks amazing, and we didn't even see that much. It looks dark, yes, but not in an immature way, which I like. I love dark, serious tones, and it is especially fitting with Batman acting as a menacing anti-hero antagonist for the first half of the film or so.

I can't wait to see Wonder Woman. I think a LOT of the brightness that will end up showing up in this film will be due to her. 

The dialogue already sounds better than anything Goyer wrote. Terrio was a wise choice.

----------


## Kid A

> On the contrary, Warner Brothers tried to copy Marvel's style with Green Lantern and people ripped them to shreds. They're going for epic spectacle here and it's a smart move.


What the hell does "epic spectacle" have to do with dark or light tone is beyond me.  I'm not asking for a dumb GL/Marvel-style tone, and I'm a fan of the Nolan Bat-movies.  But when you're doing something like a Superman/Batman crossover, you can only make it so dark before it just stops making sense.  This is just going overboard.

----------


## Triple J

> I didn't get the vibe that Superman has developed a God complex at all. I think some people see a trailer for a sequel to a filmthey didn't like & then project the dislike onto it. It certainly didn't seem like a "Batman movie more than a Superman movie" either...the entire thing is people talking about Clark. 
> 
> Snyder, way back during MOS promotion, said that they wanted to put Superman into a realistic setting -- i.e., that the world would react realistically to his presence as they would if it happened in our world. And I LOVE that idea. Think about it...if Superman showed up tomorrow in real life, the following things would all happen: 
> 
> • Some would call him the Second Coming of Jesus. 
> 
> • Some would call him the Anti-Christ & a false prophet. 
> 
> • Some would want to learn from him. 
> ...


Haven't watched the trailer...but if this is what they are going for...awesome!

I have always felt a little weird reading Superman comics where he was just embraced suddenly..as supposed to being questioned (of course, there are comics in which that were the case). And I like the fact that they are going with it.....most people are afraid of him, but he will manage to change their opinions (hopefully). Of course, there will always be a group (most importantly, Lex) who will continue hating Superman no matter what.

----------


## DebkoX

> I didn't get the vibe that Superman has developed a God complex at all. I think some people see a trailer for a sequel to a filmthey didn't like & then project the dislike onto it. It certainly didn't seem like a "Batman movie more than a Superman movie" either...the entire thing is people talking about Clark. 
> 
> Snyder, way back during MOS promotion, said that they wanted to put Superman into a realistic setting -- i.e., that the world would react realistically to his presence as they would if it happened in our world. And I LOVE that idea. Think about it...if Superman showed up tomorrow in real life, the following things would all happen: 
> 
> • Some would call him the Second Coming of Jesus. 
> 
> • Some would call him the Anti-Christ & a false prophet. 
> 
> • Some would want to learn from him. 
> ...


Never have I seen a more accurate statement on ANY forum.

----------


## ABH

> i like the theme that Superman has the weight of the world on his shoulders. if he's the most powerful being on the planet everything he does will have vast repercussions. 
> *hopefully Kal will be the sympathetic figure and Batman will look like the a$$hole for once.*


Agreed. I love Batman, but too often he looks like the "good guy" when he fights a Superman that is either the opposition, or mind-controlled, or whatever. Let Batman be the instigator this time. 




> Snyder, way back during MOS promotion, said that they wanted to put Superman into a realistic setting -- i.e., that the world would react realistically to his presence as they would if it happened in our world. And I LOVE that idea. Think about it...if Superman showed up tomorrow in real life, the following things would all happen: 
> 
> • Some would call him the Second Coming of Jesus. 
> 
> • Some would call him the Anti-Christ & a false prophet. 
> 
> • Some would want to learn from him. 
> 
> • Some would want to dissect him. 
> ...


Well said.

The DC Cinematic Universe was more or less meant to be our real world, and was just hit by a Kryptonian Alien invasion, and just learned that Superman exists -- so seeing that some people fear him, while others think he may be a god, makes sense (to me, at least).

In contrast...

The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a place where Captain America, Red Skull, Hydra, and SHIELD, have all existed since the '40s -- so their exposure to this sort of thing has had time to grow to the point where they have Helicarriers and everything else, in the present day.

I'm glad that the DCCU and the MCU are different.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> http://whatculture.com/film/12-iconi...adapt-next.php
> 
> what culture did a article on 12 different storylines dc should adapt next. Do you agree/disagree and have your own?


Is it weird that I disagree with most of these except for the Top 2? How are these even iconic? Hiketeia? Seriously? First Thunder? Uh, what? And Circle of Fire? There's nothing really memorable from that arc except for the development of Kyle Rayner and I highly doubt they're going to use him for their films. And Eyes of the Gorgon, while good, is NOT iconic whatsoever. I think whoever wrote this article needs to learn the difference between "favorite storylines" and "iconic storylines".

No Man's Land would be awesome but it would need _so much_ build up. In order to actually make it work they would have to adapt Contagion and Legacy first, making a trilogy/quadrilogy of Batman films and I don't know if DC is up for that (yet) . I'd love to see the Court of Owls though, but maybe with a better conclusion (I wasn't a fan of the final fight in that storyline) , and anything from Morrison's JLA is totally worth adapting. In fact, anything written by Morrison is worth adapting.

For Justice League, the rumors indicate that the first film will be about Brainiac and that part 2 will be about Darkseid.
For Batman, I think they want a Batman vs Joker film which I'm not really excited about, especially since Ellen Yindel might be the commissioner in it.  :Mad: 
For Green Lantern, I'd like if they did a Green Lantern Corps story arc instead of focusing on one character. It'd be great for world building and there are tons of stories they could adapt.
For Aquaman, Throne of Atlantis. Throne of Atlantis all the freakin' way. They wouldn't really need the Justice League in it but they could put them in there if they wanted to. Karl Urban is going to be in the movie, possibly as Ocean Master, so heck yeah. I would kill to see Jason Momoa raise his trident and scream "I AM YOUR KING!" on screen. 
For Wonder Woman, anything from Brian Azzarello's run. He did a really good job of tying Wonder Woman into Greek mythology, way better than anyone else did in her 60+ year history, so anything written by him is total movie material. I would love to see that arc where she kills Ares or something, and becomes the God of War (that happens, right? I stopped reading New 52 WW and I don't really remember) .

And to be honest, DC doesn't really have to adapt anything to make a good movie. I mean, what's the last story that Marvel adapted? They don't adapt any of their comics they just take the characters along with a few story elements and put them in a new original story. I mean that's what Man of Steel was, that's what Batman vs Superman probably will be (besides the obvious Dark Knight Returns elements) , and it's probably what Suicide Squad will be, too.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I see that Batfleck has inherited Baleman's love of posing on tall buildings/objects and looking over the city contemplatively.

----------


## AwesomeUsername

> The BvS trailer is awesome. I didn't expect anything different from Snyder. Let's see how the whole movie will be.
> 
> I loved this scene:


This was probably my favorite part of the teaser as well. Just so good. Can't wait for the official HD release of it. I wonder what's written on.. whatever it is that thing he's holding.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Never have I seen a more accurate statement on ANY forum.


Thanks, and thanks to the other posters who got something out of it. 

I just think that a lot of people aren't getting what the intent is...I mean, yeah, if this stuff had happened in 78 with Reeve & Donner, you could absolutely make the case that it was "grim-dark". But they have set out with a specific vision here; it doesn't mean everyone has to like it, but nobody can really say that it's "wrong." This is a universe where gamma radiation will kill you, not turn you into the hulk. The sooner people get that, the better off they'll be. 

People complained about Joker using facepaint once upon a time, too. That specific vision turned out pretty ok.

----------


## Clark_Kent

The biggest thing to remember: WB/DC taking a more serious tone will not destroy the prints of the Avengers getting drunk & trying to lift Thor's hammer. That will still exist, no matter what DC does. Party at Avengers tower is thoughtful, classy, a masterclass in writing & cinematography, and all around good fun. Realistically exploring Superman's place in the modern world is just for the kewl crowd, and should not be viewed by anybody.

----------


## dick_wingnut

So when Alfred is talking about fever, rage, and cruelty, is he talking about Bruce or Supes?

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

> So when Alfred is talking about fever, rage, and cruelty, is he talking about Bruce or Supes?


Lex         .

----------


## dick_wingnut

> Lex         .


For sure? lol boy I missed the ball on that one.

----------


## Dr. Jan Itor

That's just my guess. I was thinking that Lex and Bruce are partners against Superman until LL shows his true colors.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> I wonder what's written on.. whatever it is that thing he's holding.


There's written "Pockocmoc", it's the common name of the Russian space agency: http://roscosmos.ru/

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Interesting seeing the light shine through in the shot of Supes. Certainly doesnt look "dark and gritty" eh?

----------


## Pinsir

> Interesting seeing the light shine through in the shot of Supes. Certainly doesnt look "dark and gritty" eh?


He is the Christo!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> That's just my guess. I was thinking that Lex and Bruce are partners against Superman until LL shows his true colors.


Thats what I think too. And that Lex convinces Bruce that Supes is evil and Bruce being Batman takes it to the next level. And then while fighting Supes, Bruce see's that he is not evil or whatever and then Lex does whatever he does and hence the team up and thus Dawn of Justice. 

Or maybe WW gets wind of Lexs plan and stops Batman and Superman fighting, lectures them and then the three of em go kick ass!

----------


## AquaLantern

Saw the trailer, here are my thoughts:

1. I have a new appreciation for Ray Palmer brighting things up in Arrow
2. Hoping Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash etc. films won't be all doom and gloom.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

They could also insert a scene right after the climatic battle where LL is escaping over the sea in a kryptonite helicopter laced with the PTSD breakdown-inducing ashes of Bruce's dead parents + Jason Todd + Zod (to properly safeguard against Superman and Batman pursuit) when out of nowhere, a giant shark/kraken/whale/Godzilla/sea monster ocean thingy explodes from the sea with Aquaman riding on it to capture LL, thus setting up an ending leading to Justice League Part One.

----------


## colonyofcells

I prefer JL to be more like the olympian gods : Aquaman can have god like powers over water and all sea life, Flash can travel thru time to change history, GL specializes in space, etc.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Saw the trailer, here are my thoughts:
> 
> 1. I have a new appreciation for Ray Palmer brighting things up in Arrow
> 2. Hoping Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash etc. films won't be all doom and gloom.


Well if Lord and Miller are writing/direct The Flash then it seems very unlikely that his film won't be fun and little lighthearted.

----------


## Triple J

*WB POSTED THE OFFICIAL TRAILER*


https://www.facebook.com/batmanvsupe...type=2&theater

----------


## Triple J

Looks like people who are attending Imax screening will get extra footage.




> Cell Phone v IMAX. IMAX Event BvS fans will still be first & only to see special IMAX BvS teaser #AFewExtraShotsPlusALittleSwag #NotPirated


Zack Snyder on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/statu...98612074078208

----------


## TheDarkNut

Supermans costume is pretty bright. At least people cans stop whining about that.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Damn, I can't wait for next year. That looked insane

----------


## SuperiorIronman

This had better balance all the other heroes in this film. It does not need to go the way of the Amazing Spider-man franchise.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> This had better balance all the other heroes in this film. It does not need to go the way of the Amazing Spider-man franchise.


Fisher and Momoa aren't even listed in the credits on the poster.

----------


## blaster86

> This had better balance all the other heroes in this film. It does not need to go the way of the Amazing Spider-man franchise.


What other heroes? I know WW is going to have a small part but that it

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> What other heroes? I know WW is going to have a small part but that it


Cyborg and Aquaman have cameos.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I didn't get the vibe that Superman has developed a God complex at all. I think some people see a trailer for a sequel to a filmthey didn't like & then project the dislike onto it. It certainly didn't seem like a "Batman movie more than a Superman movie" either...the entire thing is people talking about Clark. 
> 
> Snyder, way back during MOS promotion, said that they wanted to put Superman into a realistic setting -- i.e., that the world would react realistically to his presence as they would if it happened in our world. And I LOVE that idea. Think about it...if Superman showed up tomorrow in real life, the following things would all happen: 
> 
> • Some would call him the Second Coming of Jesus. 
> 
> • Some would call him the Anti-Christ & a false prophet. 
> 
> • Some would want to learn from him. 
> ...


.B..but....he killed Zod in cold blood! He slaughtered billions of people in Metropolis with a smile!!!! He...He...He's wearing a lizard skin suit!!!! He should be in lycra spandex!!!!! He...he's not wearing trunks and saluting the flag!!!! His father mentally abused him!!! He...he steals and murders!!!! Man of Murder!!!! Movie didn't make 2 Billion dollars!!!!!! It was a failure!!!!! Snyder and Goyer destroyed my childhood!!!! Failure!!!! Reeve and Donner Forever!!! Cavill and Snyder Never!!!!

Murder!!!!! Deconstruction!!!! Murder!!!Snyderism!!! Murder!!! lizardskin!!!! Murder!!!!!!










 :Big Grin:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Wink: 

Of course I'm kidding. I wish I could have favorited your post. I have certainly bookmarked it and If I encounter any asinine criticism similar to any of the crap I've parodied above, I will just quote and link to that post, because I personally haven't seen a response as well thought out, rational and eloquently worded as this one. Bravo!!!!!!!

----------


## scottsiform

> .B..but....he killed Zod in cold blood! He slaughtered billions of people in Metropolis with a smile!!!! He...He...He's wearing a lizard skin suit!!!! He should be in lycra spandex!!!!! He...he's not wearing trunks and saluting the flag!!!! His father mentally abused him!!! He...he steals and murders!!!! Man of Murder!!!! Movie didn't make 2 Billion dollars!!!!!! It was a failure!!!!! Snyder and Goyer destroyed my childhood!!!! Failure!!!! Reeve and Donner Forever!!! Cavill and Snyder Never!!!!
> 
> Murder!!!!! Deconstruction!!!! Murder!!!Snyderism!!! Murder!!! lizardskin!!!! Murder!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thank you thank thankyou Superman isnt the antagonist of the film it just showing how humans would react to a superpowered alien I can not wait for 2016 I so want to see this movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> .B..but....he killed Zod in cold blood! He slaughtered billions of people in Metropolis with a smile!!!! He...He...He's wearing a lizard skin suit!!!! He should be in lycra spandex!!!!! He...he's not wearing trunks and saluting the flag!!!! His father mentally abused him!!! He...he steals and murders!!!! Man of Murder!!!! Movie didn't make 2 Billion dollars!!!!!! It was a failure!!!!! Snyder and Goyer destroyed my childhood!!!! Failure!!!! Reeve and Donner Forever!!! Cavill and Snyder Never!!!!
> 
> Murder!!!!! Deconstruction!!!! Murder!!!Snyderism!!! Murder!!! lizardskin!!!! Murder!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hahaha thank you, I'm glad it all made sense. And thank you for the kind words. Feel free to share it across the 'net, maybe by the time the movie comes out we can get a few people to rethink Superman in the MoS universe :P

----------


## GrandKaiser

> What other heroes? I know WW is going to have a small part but that it


A source told Gail Simone that WW's role is important in the film and that she is very well done.

----------


## Black_Adam

Anyone got a theory on the soldiers kneeling with the "S" symbol patches? Maybe some sort of cult/vigilantes inspired by him? Watching the trailer in high-def is great, seeing the uncomfortable expression when Superman is mobbed by what look like villagers in facepaint worshipping him, any notion of him going "bad" can be instantly dismissed right there, he isn't exactly revelling in the attention.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Anyone got a theory on the soldiers kneeling with the "S" symbol patches? Maybe some sort of cult/vigilantes inspired by him? Watching the trailer in high-def is great, seeing the uncomfortable expression when Superman is mobbed by what look like villagers in facepaint worshipping him, any notion of him going "bad" can be instantly dismissed right there, he isn't exactly revelling in the attention.


It kind of reminds me of the scene in Byrne's MOS #1 where Clark, after saving the Space Plane, goes back to SMALLVILLE, His Parents find him sitting alone in the dark, overwhelmed over the reaction of the crowd to him. I wonder if we may either get a flashback to his Smallville years  and have a scene with Costner as Jon Kent again, extolling wisdom or he flies back to see Martha and we see a similar scene to the comic one.

I'm not a fan of Byrne's MOS...but that scene was actually pretty powerful.

"They all wanted a piece of me..."

----------


## SpideyZERO

Very nice teaser. It covers and explains what we can expect from the actual movie. I love that the movie will explore the implication of super being like Superman existing in a 'real world'.

Visual wise, Batman looks absolutely badass and I hope the clash of Batman and Superman will  be an epic one

----------


## Hawkman

Whenever stuff like this drops, as excited as I get for the film being advertised itself, I can't help but hope that I get to see a Hawkman film of a similar caliber in my lifetime.  Seriously, an adaptation of Timothy Truman's _Hawkworld_ with this kind of budget behind it would absolutely blow my mind.

As for the trailer itself: _Batman v Superman_ was easily my most anticipated announced film before the trailer came out, and nothing has changed since watching it.  It looks incredible.

----------


## Darrell D.

It was nice hearing Jeremy Irons.
That's all I got.

----------


## Triple J

Here's one my theories:

Superman goes after Batman (I know it's makes much more sense for Bats to go after Sups)..but here me out. We see the jet firing at people (I am assuming it's the Bat jet). What if Lex took control of it and use it to hurt people?

Of course, the reverse if also possible. Lex manipulates Bats into fighting Superman.

Despite everything in the trailer, it seems that a large majority do look upto him (otherwise, there won't be a statue of him in Metropolis, or whatever that is..I am guessing it's Metropolis).

But, there's still a vocal minority that hates him (hates him specifically, and hates/fears that he is an alien with immense power). And of course, there's that other minority that worship him as a god.

As for Batman's armor, is it possible that he got hold of some of the armor and stuff (metals and such) left by Kryptonians? I don't really see how Batman stands a chance against Superman (and this Superman is really powerful; but of course, he is inexperienced). But, experience can only do so much, especially if you don't have the power (That's the reason why Foara was able to put up such an awesome fight - she was skilled, but she also had some of his power because of her exposure to our Sun's radiation).

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe Batman will spray kryptonian air on superman.

----------


## Robotman

Wow I didn't even realize that Snyder is doing a reverse DKR! The media all taking about Supes, Batman supposedly teams with Lex to take down the dangerous renegade the way Superman was Reagan's puppet, and rumors are that Superman will throw the fight with Bats to get everyone off his back kinda like how Bruce had a self induced heart attack at the end of the DKR fight.

----------


## Triple J

Btw, what do you guys think about the Russian satellite scene?

I have a feeling that Lex is going to set Superman up...Superman tries to save people, but comes off as being the bad guy (because of Lex). That could be a catalyst to Batman showing up.

(Of course, they have already kind of set it up with the events in MOS. Lex can easily sway the public by presenting the facts a little differently).

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Btw, what do you guys think about the Russian satellite scene?
> 
> I have a feeling that Lex is going to set Superman up...Superman tries to save people, but comes off as being the bad guy (because of Lex). That could be a catalyst to Batman showing up.
> 
> (Of course, they have already kind of set it up with the events in MOS. * Lex can easily sway the public by presenting the facts a little differently).*


"Devils don't come from hell below us...they come from the sky." ~ Lex Luthor in this trailer

----------


## GrandKaiser

> "Devils don't come from hell below us...they come from the sky." ~ Lex Luthor in this trailer


Is he mad that Superman didn't accept his Facebook request?

----------


## Luthornado

> Anyone got a theory on the soldiers kneeling with the "S" symbol patches?


I think they are part of a government branch that is aiding or cooperating with superman, and that they are worshiping him. The worshping of Superman has gone completely out of control and not what Superman wants, hence his expression. The government and Superman is on the same team, altho they're probably secretly trying to study his weaknesses and ways to control him as well. The people are very split on their opinions on him. Some, like so many others, worships him. Others thinks he is a false god, a danger to the world. Batman supports or perhaps even leads the rebels or the people who want Superman gone, but he is also the "enemy of state", so Superman is probably going against Batman for the government, because Batman has started a crusaide against Superman, and thus the government.

I don't know, this is how I imagine it based on the trailer.

----------


## GrandKaiser

I think maybe Luthor is trying to pretend that he's aiding and supporting Superman, like in several different comic books, as part of his evil plan. Those soldiers could be a part of it.

----------


## Luthornado

> I think maybe Luthor is trying to pretend that he's aiding and supporting Superman, like in several different comic books, as part of his evil plan. Those soldiers could be a part of it.


Could very well be, but I don't think that's it.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Is anyone here going to the IMAX event on Monday?

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Wow I didn't even realize that Snyder is doing a reverse DKR! The media all taking about Supes, Batman supposedly teams with Lex to take down the dangerous renegade the way Superman was Reagan's puppet, and rumors are that Superman will throw the fight with Bats to get everyone off his back kinda like how Bruce had a self induced heart attack at the end of the DKR fight.


That's an interesting theory, and one that I think might work for the movie. The only problem would be that it would only be a question of time before Batman turns on Luthor in that scenario, but I guess something similar could be said for any mainstream action blockbuster; "it's only a question of time until the hero turns the tables on the villain and win!" I do wonder if they can keep Batman/Luthor as the antagonists throughout the movie though, it seems like they'll have to have a second threat if they're going to team up any time during the story. 

I enjoyed the trailer, most positively surprised by the solid dialogue (felt like classic bronze age purple prose without going OTT) and how good Affleck looks in the suit, he's a beast! I also liked how they're sticking with the theme of the public reaction to Superman, which was a promising idea in Man of Steel that kind of got lost in the shuffle.

----------


## Triple J

> Is anyone here going to the IMAX event on Monday?


Snyder did mention that they will get extra footage + swag...so, I am wondering the same. Anyone from here going? If so, don't forget to tell us about the extra footage  :Wink:

----------


## GrandKaiser

I really wanted to get a pass but looks like I was too late.  :Stick Out Tongue:  If anyone's going to the IMAX event make sure you fill us in!

----------


## borntohula

Batman vs Superman looks really awesome. I really like that they -hopefully- dare to go places with Superman. What consequence such power in such a "man" could have.

The vibes I get really reminds me of Frank Miller's The dark knight returns and Brian Azzarello's Luthor: Man of steel. Interestingly Suicide Squad seems to include the Johnny Frost character from BA's Joker, perhaps an indication that they'v -HOPEFULLY- looked at his stuff. The Superman/Luthor dynamic in Luthor is incredible.

But I'm keeping my hopes in check. I was a bit disappointed by MoS, especially after the papa Kent teaser! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-37SFSiSK-U But I think it looks like they have something more interesting in store than Kal El killing Zod this time around.

----------


## M L A

haha, oh boy, set photos of BVS seemed to have leaked and there's a photo a lot of people aren't liking.

Will link when I get off mobile.

----------


## Rogue Star

Is it about Dick Grayson's gravestone?  Yeah, I don't much like the sound of that either.

----------


## colonyofcells

I am ok with the movies continuing to avoid the Robins. The TV shows and animated movies are using the Robins and Nightwing.

----------


## M L A

> Is it about Dick Grayson's gravestone?  Yeah, I don't much like the sound of that either.


Yeah that's it.

The most baffling part of it would be if the Carrie Kelley rumors are true, especially if this photo set is true too.

http://imgur.com/a/5cb6s
27 photos in all.

----------


## TheDarkNut

For people who hated the 'dark' tone of the trailer.

Here's a silver-age version of it:

----------


## The Celtic Batman

> For people who hated the 'dark' tone of the trailer.
> 
> Here's a silver-age version of it:


Haha! I love this! Great to see Batman running with the bomb and the best Batmobile ever! ;-) Also great use of the President kneeling! But the Ultimate Highlight: The logo 'spin'! Genius! :-) (all it was missing was a rubber shark and some Bat-Shark-repellant!)

I wonder if the next trailer will need Linda Carter Wonder Woman in it.....? :-)

----------


## Triple J

*The Music - BvS Teaser Trailer*

----------


## Rogue Star

> Yeah that's it.
> 
> The most baffling part of it would be if the Carrie Kelley rumors are true, especially if this photo set is true too.
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/5cb6s
> 27 photos in all.


Obviously Carrie Kelly won't be Robin in the sense that we're hoping, and it's a big let down for me. That's fine with some people who prefer the adherence to "realism" but I would rather see more comic book elements like young sidekicks.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Maybe they'll pull a Nolan with that Tombstone & digitally alter it to throw the cast off. In 'The Dark Knight Rises', the tombstone said Miranda Tate & was later changed to Bruce Wayne. 

A long shot, but you never know. Although considering far more people think of Robin as Dick Grayson instead of Jason Todd, it could very well be Dick's suit hanging in the cave. 

As for Luthor...is that a Russian rocket Superman is lowering to the ground, or a Russian satellite? If it's a rocket, maybe Luthor has manipulated the launching of it and Superman stops it (homage to DKR) before it hits, and when he sets it down he commits what Russia views as an act of war or something (another homage to DKR; USA vs Russia). If the rest of the world viewed him as a weapon of the United States, for example, he would cause quite a few problems breaking their airspace & touching foot on their soil. "Everyone's talking about what he CAN do, nobody's stopping to think about what he SHOULD do." ~ Holly Hunter's character, paraphrased. 

I dunno. Just throwing out more speculation.

----------


## Doctor Know

> For people who hated the 'dark' tone of the trailer.
> 
> Here's a silver-age version of it:

----------


## Triple J

Well..it reads Richard Grayson. Could be his dad? I know, I know....a long shot, but it's possible that they changed his dad's name to Richard? 

Or maybe it's a setup? (as in the sense that, Dick is dead to the world..but Nightwing is alive - you know, which is what's happening right now in continuity).

Heck, they might even have Dick as a super spy or something (yeah, people are going to compare that to WS; but WS, Cap 2, was an assassin, not a spy).

Or maybe like Clark_Kent mentioned, they are just doing what they did with DKR...misleading us.

----------


## Darrell D.

The Bat helmet looks like the Lego Batman mask from the games.
Which means I hope Batman builds a ladder by picking stuff off the ground really quickly.

----------


## Rogue Star

I'm going to have to fight the urge to pick up studs while watching this movie then.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

If they go with the Dick Grayson being dead thing, that's going to elicit a LOT of mixed feelings for me. Having Dick be dead is a serious gut punch, but I respect the hell out of how ballsy it is. Let's face facts, most people don't care about Jason, and the GA doesn't know who he is anyway. For them, there is only one Robin, so Dick's death would be a bigger "Holy s***" feeling. 

Plus, I'd think I'd rather have Dick die, preferably going out in a blaze of glory, then end up with his fates in Beyond or especially Strikes Again.

----------


## Tracer Bullet

> If they go with the Dick Grayson being dead thing, that's going to elicit a LOT of mixed feelings for me. Having Dick be dead is a serious gut punch, but I respect the hell out of how ballsy it is. Let's face facts, most people don't care about Jason, and the GA doesn't know who he is anyway. For them, there is only one Robin, so Dick's death would be a bigger "Holy s***" feeling. 
> 
> Plus, I'd think I'd rather have Dick die, preferably going out in a blaze of glory, then end up with his fates in Beyond or especially Strikes Again.


What happened to Dick in Beyond?

----------


## KurtW95

> If they go with the Dick Grayson being dead thing, that's going to elicit a LOT of mixed feelings for me. Having Dick be dead is a serious gut punch, but I respect the hell out of how ballsy it is. Let's face facts, most people don't care about Jason, and the GA doesn't know who he is anyway. For them, there is only one Robin, so Dick's death would be a bigger "Holy s***" feeling. 
> 
> Plus, I'd think I'd rather have Dick die, preferably going out in a blaze of glory, then end up with his fates in Beyond or especially Strikes Again.


According to the tombstone, he would have been age eight. So I suppose that would mean he was never even Robin.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> What happened to Dick in Beyond?


Just never liked how he and Bruce hated each others guts and never spoke to each other again. I mean, ideally I wouldn't want him dead either, but I'd rather have him go out on a high note  without the two of them hating each other or the rest of their days.

----------


## godisawesome

> What happened to Dick in Beyond?


And then the comic had him engaged to Babs when she gets pregnant with Bruce's kid....


And I think he had an eyepatch.

----------


## FlashingSabre

I swear to God, if Dick is dead in the movieverse...

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

What if Scott Eastwood is really playing Dick Grayson, Agent 37 of Spyral?  :EEK!:

----------


## byrd156

> What if Scott Eastwood is really playing Dick Grayson, Agent 37 of Spyral?


Then it would be pretty lame....

----------


## Black_Adam

Dick being dead? Sorry I'll need more than a party obscured tombstone to buy it, this one smells majorly fishy.

----------


## TheDarkNut

I hope Grayson is alive. He's one of DC's best character and deserves at least one good movie version.

----------


## colonyofcells

Movie Dick Grayson is probably working undercover.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Movie Dick Grayson is probably working undercover.


We have the same source it seems. Because I have heard that DCCU Dick Grayson may have faked his death like in the Forever Evil storyline.

----------


## Robotman

So Dick Grayson died when he was 8?!? That wouldn't make sense at all. Too young to be Robin. Damian is 10 but there are hints that Talia and League enhanced him in some way. Dick Grayson/Nightwing is far too marketable a character to have him die off screen 15 years ago. 
I've heard rumors about the Suicide Squad movie that the reason Harley spit from the Joker is that he killed one of the Robins. It has to be Jason. Harley would've been too young in 2000. It would make more sense for them to use one of the more classic Batman stories (Death in the Family) to use as a backstory.
Maybe we'll see the Robin costume in the glass case in Batman v. Superman.

----------


## Triple J

> So Dick Grayson died when he was 8?!? That wouldn't make sense at all. Too young to be Robin. Damian is 10 but there are hints that Talia and League enhanced him in some way. 
> I've heard rumors about the Suicide Squad movie that the reason Harley spit from the Joker is that he killed one of the Robins. It has to be Jason. Harley would've been too young in 2000. It would make more sense for them to use one of the more classic Batman stories (Death in the Family) to use as a backstory.


Well, that's only if the year is 1992. I can only see 19X2...the third number is not visible. So, it could be anything. This could be Dick's Dad (it will fit too - Dick would be around ~25 yrs of age now assuming he was 10 when his dad died (and assuming it's 2015 in the DC Movieverse); of course his name would slightly change. Richard Jnr, as supposed to Richard).

----------


## Lightning Rider

Maybe.

----------


## Jabare

first bad news I've hear related to this film. Oh well

----------


## Triple J

Yeah, that could just be Jason.

We still don't know who Scoot McNairy or Jena Malone are playing. They could be Dick and Barbara of the movieverse.

----------


## GrandKaiser

https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/statu...42078341152770
https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/statu...212929/photo/1




WHOA!

----------


## Triple J

Wow...those look awesome  :Big Grin: 

Okay, I think they are going to show something awesome tomorrow!

----------


## GrandKaiser

Two of the best designed superhero movie posters I've seen in a very long time. Very creative, very powerful. I love that the eyes are covered--that could represent what roles they play in the movie. Since the eyes are essentially the "windows to the soul", covering them sometimes means you're hiding something. So maybe both Batman and Superman are hiding something, or keeping something in, and what they're hiding will be revealed when they're at odds with each other.. Really really cool, props to the designer(s).

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

beautiful design on those. Tomorrow come faster!

----------


## Dylan Davison

Man, the one near me ran our of tickets so fast, like 5 minutes after it was put up. I want those posters haha. I will have to ebay it haha. Maybe they will give them away at SDCC. *wishing*

----------


## Starchild

Sadly, I won't be able to make it tomorrow, gave my tickets to a kid next door. If you are going tomorrow. Enjoy!

----------


## GrandKaiser

I wanna go.  :Frown: 

I must think...how would Lex Luthor get into an IMAX screening...


...he'd probably buy the whole theater. Never mind.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Nah, Bruce Wayne is the type who buys the theater.

Lex Luthor is the type who has someone dangle you out of a helicopter until you agree to build an IMAX theater in his house just for him!

----------


## Superboy

I hope the dead Robin is Jason, so he can become Red Hood. I would also love to see a Batman trilogy based on Grant Morrison run. With a 12 years old Damien killing adults and mutilating they arms,legs and head just like Hit-Girl in the Kick Ass movie. Batman die in a Justice League movie, and Dick becomes the next Batman and work with Damien. LEGACY!!!

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Nah, Bruce Wayne is the type who buys the theater.
> 
> Lex Luthor is the type who has someone dangle you out of a helicopter until you agree to build an IMAX theater in his house just for him!


Hahaha...you sir just made me die laughing. That's so true.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## nightrider

I'm so so so excited about suicide squad as well. Can't wait for the trailer this December. I hope ss releases a trailer fast. Just putting things into perspective, when do you guys think will be a great time to slot in batman solo and superman sequel.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm so so so excited about suicide squad as well. Can't wait for the trailer this December. I hope ss releases a trailer fast. Just putting things into perspective, when do you guys think will be a great time to slot in batman solo and superman sequel.


December sounds about right for a SS trailer. I reckon the Solo Batman and Superman films will be slotted in either 2018 or 2020. 2017 and 2019 is already big with JL.

----------


## AwesomeUsername

A better look at Wonder Woman's suit. And in color too. It's from the Batmobile reveal video.

----------


## nightrider

> A better look at Wonder Woman's suit. And in color too. It's from the Batmobile reveal video.


where was this?

----------


## Darrell D.

> https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/statu...42078341152770
> https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/statu...212929/photo/1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHOA!


Wow!  It's MTV circa 1987!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> A better look at Wonder Woman's suit. And in color too. It's from the Batmobile reveal video.


Interesting.

I also note that Diana's Lasso looks gold there, whereas in the image we've seen previously, it looked more silvery.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> where was this?


Batman exhibit at WB studios. Here's the full video, there's some fantastic info about Batman's suit.
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=118996

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> The Bat helmet looks like the Lego Batman mask from the games.
> Which means I hope Batman builds a ladder by picking stuff off the ground really quickly.


If anything, I'd say it's a pretty convincing replica of his snazzy motorcycle helmet from B: TAS!

Batcycle_(BTAS)_01.jpg

----------


## AwesomeUsername

> where was this?





> Batman exhibit at WB studios. Here's the full video, there's some fantastic info about Batman's suit.
> http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=118996


Sorry, my bad. Completely forgot to add the link to the video. 

Some more close-ups I just spotted on Facebook

----------


## Darrell D.

> If anything, I'd say it's a pretty convincing replica of his snazzy motorcycle helmet from B: TAS!


Ehh, yeah, but the Lego one makes for a better joke.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Trinity never looked so good  :Big Grin: 

btw *Jeevanjacobjohn*  might wanna update WW director on the first page.

----------


## Triple J

> Trinity never looked so good 
> 
> btw *Jeevanjacobjohn*  might wanna update WW director on the first page.


Oh, forgot about that. 

Updated. Thanks  :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Oh, forgot about that. 
> 
> Updated. Thanks


No worries, you are doing a tremendous job keeping shape of this thread.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Batman v Superman IMAX trailer event rumored description (extra footage): http://comicbook.com/2015/04/20/batm...t-description/

_"The event starts off with Zack Snyder thanking fans and telling them not to record the trailer about to be shown. Then the trailer plays and is pretty much the same exact trailer until the end. The IMAX display does the trailer wonders, making it an experience YouTube could never deliver.

The end is where the added footage is seen, after the logo at the very end. The scene starts with a close up of Superman running, then running through something before we get a wide view and you see Batman, charging towards Superman in his armor suit. Batman is charging with his arms out and Superman with a huge fist like in the comics. Just as they are about to clash it cuts and then the Batman V. Superman title comes out.

The scene lasts for a good 5-6 seconds and it's over. Then Snyder is back, this time telling us to pay attention to the beautiful IMAX shots 'Do you bleed' and charging scenes. Snyder goes on to tell fans that the charging scene is an IMAX exclusive and will NOT be released publicly."_

----------


## Triple J

A video look at the costumes  :Big Grin:

----------


## GrandKaiser

> A video look at the costumes


Is that music from the movie!? :O

----------


## Punisher007

Holy crap!!  Criminals beware, the Bat-bulge is on it's way, and it's "formidable."

----------


## Robotman

So Wonder Woman's costume is actually red, blue, and gold. Uh oh one less thing for people to bitch about. But I'm sure something else will take it's place shortly on the "things to hate" list.

----------


## Black_Adam

> A better look at Wonder Woman's suit. And in color too. It's from the Batmobile reveal video.


Wow Batman is massive, watched the video, steel cap knuckles and boots nice touch lol. 

Wonder Woman's costume looks great as well, can't wait to see Gadot in action.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I've waited 25 years to see the Bat Suit done right. Now, THAT is a Batman suit! I know it's still likely a molded rubber muscle suit...but at least it doesn't LOOK like it. WW's I'm still shaky on...but I'm glad it looks more colorful. Superman's suit looks a bit brighter, and  I'm glad all the metallic silver bits are all blue or yellow now...but I miss the round "belt" buckle. All and all, it looks great.

The BATMOBILE looks like the 1989 Tim Burton design mated with the Tumbler and had a baby. Not bad.

I kinda hope there's a shot of the garage in the Batcave...and in there is EVERY single live action BATMOBILE , from the Adam West show on through the Tumbler/Bat Pod from Nolan's trilogy. I know it's fan service to the almost extreme, but it's a standard thing of the comics to show that garage and those designs from time to time,even in the New 52 U, so why not? It actually makes sense for this Batman as this version apparently had many years of adventures prior to this movie.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> So Wonder Woman's costume is actually red, blue, and gold. Uh oh one less thing for people to bitch about. But I'm sure something else will take it's place shortly on the "things to hate" list.


i Know. In fact I can even picture it right now...

*Scene Suddenly changes:

(Superfriends announcer voice or Batman tv show ) MEANWHILE.... IN SOMEONE's BASEMENT, Nitpickyfanboyman, scourge of positivity and reason, is fuming at the positive reactions to the latest Batman v Superman news!!!!!
*

"What??? People saying GOOD things about BATMAN V SUPERMAN!!!!??? i will show them!!!!"



_Clicks "reply to this thread" and starts typing_


_Blah blah blah....too dark...blah blah...not enough bright colors...blah blah...where are Batman's trunks blah blah...Superman still killed Zod and stole...blah blah Not my Superman blah blah hobo of steel blah blah Snyderism blah blah failure blah blah bring back Carter and West...blah blah... Failure!!!!! blah blah exhume Reeve!!!blah blah This movie SUX!!!!!!! When is the next reboot??? #dumpsnyder #draftdonner

P.S....Henry Cavill's hairline is too high!!! #BALDSUPERMURDERER_ 


There!  That will teach people to like something I don't!!!!

_Hits "post reply"_

Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! (cue lighting and thunder)

 :Big Grin:  :Wink:

----------


## Triple J

> Is that music from the movie!? :O


Nah. It's from Fury.




> So Wonder Woman's costume is actually red, blue, and gold. Uh oh one less thing for people to bitch about. But I'm sure something else will take it's place shortly on the "things to hate" list.


Oh, yes...people just couldn't accept that it was just a filter.




> Wow Batman is massive, watched the video, steel cap knuckles and boots nice touch lol. 
> 
> Wonder Woman's costume looks great as well, can't wait to see Gadot in action.


Same here. Hopefully we will get a trailer with WW (in about 6 months perhaps? If she plays a big part; which I think she does, especially since they have her name on the credits).

----------


## Triple J

> The first surprise waiting for fans at the event? Not only would they get to see the trailer on the big screen, they’d get to see the entire movie at a preview screening, a week before anyone else. For free.


Wow!! Why couldn't they have more than on screening in my city?

Source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2138526/batm...x-event-recap/

----------


## GrandKaiser

AAHHHHHH!! What! Those lucky ducks!

----------


## Robotman

> Same here. Hopefully we will get a trailer with WW (in about 6 months perhaps? If she plays a big part; which I think she does, especially since they have her name on the credits).


Comic Con!

We'll probably get our first glimpse of her in action. I think Wonder Woman will be the most talked about thing at the biggest pop culture event in the world.

----------


## Hawkman

Costumes look great, although I always thought they looked good.  That new video really confirms it, though.

Man, I can't wait for this movie.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Batman v Superman IMAX trailer event rumored description (extra footage): http://comicbook.com/2015/04/20/batm...t-description/
> 
> _"The event starts off with Zack Snyder thanking fans and telling them not to record the trailer about to be shown. Then the trailer plays and is pretty much the same exact trailer until the end. The IMAX display does the trailer wonders, making it an experience YouTube could never deliver.
> 
> The end is where the added footage is seen, after the logo at the very end. The scene starts with a close up of Superman running, then running through something before we get a wide view and you see Batman, charging towards Superman in his armor suit. Batman is charging with his arms out and Superman with a huge fist like in the comics. Just as they are about to clash it cuts and then the Batman V. Superman title comes out.
> 
> The scene lasts for a good 5-6 seconds and it's over. Then Snyder is back, this time telling us to pay attention to the beautiful IMAX shots 'Do you bleed' and charging scenes. Snyder goes on to tell fans that the charging scene is an IMAX exclusive and will NOT be released publicly."_


This scene was EPIC! It's very similar to General Zod and Superman charging towards each other in Man of Steel. I have goosebumps just thinking about it. I was able to get a ticket for the trailer at the IMAX. Great experience. We get a early screening to the film next year and we were given prints, one each, of the Batman and Superman posters.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> This scene was EPIC! It's very similar to General Zod and Superman charging towards each other in Man of Steel. I have goosebumps just thinking about it. I was able to get a ticket for the trailer at the IMAX. Great experience. We get a early screening to the film next year and we were given prints, one each, of the Batman and Superman posters.


Can...can you take me with you to the screening?  :Frown:

----------


## GrandKaiser

I'm subscribed to this guy on YouTube, he went to the screening and he provides some cool details and some interesting theories.

----------


## Jabare

I'm kind of glad we didn't get the last 10 seconds after hearing this.

Everything I've seen so far (except the leaked grave image) looks great. But in the back of my mind I still feel like this shouldn't be much of a fight. So having Superman charge at BAtman and not kill him doesn't really work for me.

But still I have faith this will be good.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Can...can you take me with you to the screening?


I actually tried to get more tickets but they told me no.  :Big Grin: 

I've been avoiding everything Batman v. Superman for the past few days and I was freaking out when I was handed the slip because I didn't expect it. You had to write your email on the back of the slip and I had the person read my email back to me just so it was clear.

This is what it looked like...



Edited: The spoil works differently on this forum. I thought it would hide the picture with a button. My mistake.

Edited: There's a picture from the scene that I was talking about if anybody wants to see it.

----------


## Robotman

Here the additional footage!

https://imgflip.com/gif/kg4jm


Jeez I know that's probably the strongest Batsuit he's ever made but I just can't imagine it would last more than a few seconds charging head on with Supes like that.

----------


## Angelo2113

I don't believe Superman is flying in that scene so something must have happened to him.

Edited: Nevermind, I think he started flying at the last second.

----------


## Triple J

*This should be reassuring to those who are worried about Superman being downplayed and showed us the bad guy:*




> So, I kind of use Frank's Superman to tell me what not to do in a way. - Zack Snyder

----------


## AwesomeUsername

Heh, why use super speed, right? Comic logic in full effect. I expect plenty of that in that final battle.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> A better look at Wonder Woman's suit. And in color too. It's from the Batmobile reveal video.


Finally ! The Batman from the comics is going to show up on the big screen. Thank you Snyder.

----------


## Triple J

> Finally ! The Batman from the comics is going to show up on the big screen. Thank you Snyder.


I wonder if the critics will be complaining about that too  :Big Grin: 

Batman can't do that!! Batman shouldn't do this!!! That's not Batman!!!

----------


## Angelo2113

I can't tell if they put in the best lines from Lex Luthor, Alfred, and Batman or that's just a taste of what the movie will have.

----------


## Robotman

So, I kind of use Frank's Superman to tell me what not to do in a way. - Zack Snyder


That's the best thing I've heard Snyder say!

----------


## Angelo2113

"You're scared of me because you can't control me. You don't, and you never will. But that doesn't mean I'm your enemy." is one of my favorite lines from Man of Steel. That line alone pretty much ruled out The Dark Knight Returns version of Superman.

----------


## Badou

> *This should be reassuring to those who are worried about Superman being downplayed and showed us the bad guy:*


It seemed a lot of what he said was around when MoS was about to be released, but MoS was a disappointment to a lot of people and you wonder if his line of thinking has changed any or if the studio's line of thinking about what they want to see from the character has changed. I don't think Superman is going to be embarrassing to see, or be a villain given the JL movie is after this movie, but it does feel like Batman is the big reason that is driving interest in this movie.

----------


## Angelo2113

The Man of Steel event with Kevin Smith and Zack Snyder was in November of 2013 and it didn't seem that any of Zack Snyder's views changed.

Edited: Man of Steel performed quite well in the theatrical and home market so I think that indicates that Zack Snyder, and Warner Bros. for that matter, aren't changing their plans. They're building the DC Cinematic Universe, at least the hero side, around Superman by introducing characters into HIS world rather than the other way around.

----------


## Robotman

> It seemed a lot of what he said was around when MoS was about to be released, but MoS was a disappointment to a lot of people and you wonder if his line of thinking has changed any or if the studio's line of thinking about what they want to see from the character has changed. I don't think Superman is going to be embarrassing to see, or be a villain given the JL movie is after this movie, but it does feel like Batman is the big reason that is driving interest in this movie.


A lot about the teaser seems to paint Batman as the aggressor and Superman as the misunderstood sympathetic figure. All the people screaming at him that he's an evil alien god doesn't make it so. We know it's not true and we know how bad it makes Superman feel. 
The teaser shows us all the crap that poor Kal has to deal with and that he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. And don't look now but there's a crazy billionaire in a Bat suit gunning for you Supes. 
But we can also surmise that Bruce is testing him. If Superman is truly good Batman is gonna make him prove it. It looks like part of the fight takes place at the infamous station where he killed Zod. Psychological warfare like only Batman can dish out.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So those who went imax get to see film early? Snyder is one amazing guy.

----------


## Angelo2113

> A lot about the teaser seems to paint Batman as the aggressor and Superman as the misunderstood sympathetic figure. All the people screaming at him that he's an evil alien god doesn't make it so. We know it's not true and we know how bad it makes Superman feel. 
> The teaser shows us all the crap that poor Kal has to deal with and that he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. And don't look now but there's a crazy billionaire in a Bat suit gunning for you Supes. 
> *But we can also surmise that Bruce is testing him. If Superman is truly good Batman is gonna make him prove it. It looks like part of the fight takes place at the infamous station where he killed Zod. Psychological warfare like only Batman can dish out.*


I wouldn't be surprised knowing that Batman is crazy enough to put himself in a situation to test whether or not Superman will kill him. I know Zack Snyder is going to focus on that in this movie because he wanted to create the foundation for that rule in Man of Steel.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I wouldn't be surprised knowing that Batman is crazy enough to put himself in a situation to test whether or not Superman will kill him. I know Zack Snyder is going to focus on that in this movie because he wanted to create the foundation for that rule in Man of Steel.



I could buy Batman intentionally trying to push Superman as hard as he can to test his moral code,  how far he can be pushed and if he is coruptable. Once he sees that Superman is incorruptable,  the two of them will likely be turning tables on Lex together.

----------


## Darrell D.

That Bat suit looks great, and Affleck looked pretty badass in the trailer.

----------


## Angelo2113

> I could buy Batman intentionally trying to push Superman as hard as he can to test his moral code,  how far he can be pushed and if he is coruptable. Once he sees that Superman is incorruptable,  the two of them will likely be turning tables on Lex together.


Exactly. I'm interested to see when this confrontation takes place in the movie because I don't think Lex is going to be the only villain. There needs to be a threat big enough where Wonder Woman appears in full costume and there were pictures of people placing flowers next to the destroyed Superman statue in the park.

----------


## Robotman

> Exactly. I'm interested to see when this confrontation takes place in the movie because I don't think Lex is going to be the only villain. There needs to be a threat big enough where Wonder Woman appears in full costume and there were pictures of people placing flowers next to the destroyed Superman statue in the park.


I'm hoping for Doomaday. Just because fans already know that if Superman fights him alone he can technically defeat him but it would cost him his life. Doomsday is a huge threat that could cause the Trinity to unit. As a team they could stop him. Would be cool to see Lex experimenting on Zod's corpse and accidently unleash Doomsday. Either through the Phantom Zone or maybe Zod transforms into the monster. 
Plus Doomsday's name was mentioned in the MoS special features.

----------


## Triple J

> I'm hoping for Doomaday. Just because fans already know that if Superman fights him alone he can technically defeat him but it would cost him his life. Doomsday is a huge threat that could cause the Trinity to unit. As a team they could stop him. Would be cool to see Lex experimenting on Zod's corpse and accidently unleash Doomsday. Either through the Phantom Zone or maybe Zod transforms into the monster. 
> Plus Doomsday's name was mentioned in the MoS special features.


I think they should keep Doomsday for later..to do a Death of the Superman film.

Perhaps Bizzaro? Zod's body is recovered by Lex; he tries to clone Zod and creates Bizzaro. This version of Bizzaro, who looks closer to Superman, causes all sorts of trouble throughout the world; Lex manipulates him to, which results in many people and governments blaming Superman (while not realizing that the trouble is caused by Bizzaro). I can see why Batman would be 'angry' at Superman in such a case.

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe Lex framed the Batman so Superman went after Batman.

----------


## blaster86

> I'm hoping for Doomaday. Just because fans already know that if Superman fights him alone he can technically defeat him but it would cost him his life. Doomsday is a huge threat that could cause the Trinity to unit. As a team they could stop him. Would be cool to see Lex experimenting on Zod's corpse and accidently unleash Doomsday. Either through the Phantom Zone or maybe Zod transforms into the monster. 
> Plus Doomsday's name was mentioned in the MoS special features.


No on doomsday save him for later if lex does get zod body I think he would make cyborg superman

----------


## GrandKaiser

A while back someone reported that there was a great action sequence that had Batman breaking into Lexcorp and fighting a bunch of security. Many people theorized that Lex was using Zod's body to create Doomsday and that Batman was trying to stop him, or just get kryptonite or something.

There have been tons of Doomsday rumors floating around anyway so I think it's possible that he'll show up.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> A while back someone reported that there was a great action sequence that had Batman breaking into Lexcorp and fighting a bunch of security. Many people theorized that Lex was using Zod's body to create Doomsday and that Batman was trying to stop him, or just get kryptonite or something.
> 
> There have been tons of Doomsday rumors floating around anyway so I think it's possible that he'll show up.


What other actors have been cast for the film that could be him, though? 

Though I have considered that they might make a villain who's entirely CGI, who would probably be Doomsday, which would be pretty awful.

----------


## Angelo2113

> I'm hoping for Doomaday. Just because fans already know that if Superman fights him alone he can technically defeat him but it would cost him his life. Doomsday is a huge threat that could cause the Trinity to unit. As a team they could stop him. Would be cool to see Lex experimenting on Zod's corpse and accidently unleash Doomsday. Either through the Phantom Zone or maybe Zod transforms into the monster. 
> Plus Doomsday's name was mentioned in the MoS special features.


I would actually like to see the Trinity unite under their similar beliefs for "freedom and justice." It's great to see a team unite against a similar enemy but that's the physical approach and I would really like to see the psychological approach for these heroes. It'll give them a stronger bond of working together as a team no matter who the enemy is. While if there's only the physical approach, it will be easier for somebody to pit them against each other and I'm hoping after this movie, Warner Bros./Zack Snyder won't make that a primary focus in future films.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Yo, Jeevanjacobjohn this is really a great thread man. Thx for doing this. I was looking on the 1st page checking out the year that some of these movies would come out. And you have Man of Steel 2 for Date unknown. Isn't BvS MOS 2?

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Yo, Jeevanjacobjohn this is really a great thread man. Thx for doing this. I was looking on the 1st page checking out the year that some of these movies would come out. And you have Man of Steel 2 for Date unknown. Isn't BvS MOS 2?


It's been said that BvS is not a direct sequel to MoS (well, it kind of is in a way, I suppose) and that it will get its own future installments.

----------


## Triple J

> Yo, Jeevanjacobjohn this is really a great thread man. Thx for doing this. I was looking on the 1st page checking out the year that some of these movies would come out. And you have Man of Steel 2 for Date unknown. Isn't BvS MOS 2?


Thanks, and no problem  :Big Grin: 




> It's been said that BvS is not a direct sequel to MoS (well, it kind of is in a way, I suppose) and that it will get its own future installments.


Like LoneNecromancer mentioned, BvS isn't a direct sequel (it's a sequel, in the sense that it follows the events of MOS..although there are rumors/reports saying that this film takes places 3 yrs after MOS..but, it's not entirely a Superman focused film).

WB already announced MOS 2/Batman 1 films...no dates.

----------


## Robotman

Batman v. Superman has definitely evolved over the past few years. First it was the sequel to MoS with a guest appearence by Batman. Then it became the Batman/Superman team up flick with a brief Wonder Woman cameo. Now apparently Diana has a pretty big role in the film and this movie is basically a Trinity team up. 
You can't really blame them though as fans have come to expect so much after the Avengers. Even Marvel's "solo" movies have appearances by at least two other heroes. 
I think it's a great thing. We finally get to see the Trinity on the big screen. Thanks Marvel for finally getting WB off their asses!

----------


## Triple J

> A while back someone reported that there was a great action sequence that had Batman breaking into Lexcorp and fighting a bunch of security. Many people theorized that Lex was using Zod's body to create Doomsday and that Batman was trying to stop him, or just get kryptonite or something.
> 
> There have been tons of Doomsday rumors floating around anyway so I think it's possible that he'll show up.


It could very well be Bizzaro. He works with the same setup - Experimentation on Zod's body; cloning..results in Bizzaro.




> What other actors have been cast for the film that could be him, though? 
> 
> Though I have considered that they might make a villain who's entirely CGI, who would probably be Doomsday, which would be pretty awful.


We still don't know who Callan Mulvey is playing...same goes for Scoot McNairy (remember the photos in which his legs were covered with green cloth?). There are reports of him being Nightwing.




> I would actually like to see the Trinity unite under their similar beliefs for "freedom and justice." It's great to see a team unite against a similar enemy but that's the physical approach and I would really like to see the psychological approach for these heroes. It'll give them a stronger bond of working together as a team no matter who the enemy is. While if there's only the physical approach, it will be easier for somebody to pit them against each other and I'm hoping after this movie, Warner Bros./Zack Snyder won't make that a primary focus in future films.


Would love to see that...I think the same should go for the League. They shouldn't just band together for fighting a common threat (that's a good reason, but that perhaps shouldn't be the only reason).

----------


## Triple J

> Batman v. Superman has definitely evolved over the past few years. First it was the sequel to MoS with a guest appearence by Batman. Then it became the Batman/Superman team up flick with a brief Wonder Woman cameo. Now apparently Diana has a pretty big role in the film and this movie is basically a Trinity team up. 
> You can't really blame them though as fans have come to expect so much after the Avengers. Even Marvel's "solo" movies have appearances by at least two other heroes. 
> I think it's a great thing. We finally get to see the Trinity on the big screen. Thanks Marvel for finally getting WB off their asses!


That's the thing. WB never really called it MOS2 (Well, Snyder did mention it as MOS2 at Comic-con for the initial announcement)...so, what their initial plans were, we will never know. But, hopefully the changes will result in a better film  :Big Grin: 

Yes, we should thank Marvel for that (and now, we have Valiant to keep both Marvel and DC in check). A slew of higher quality films will encourage competitors to invest more time/effort into making better films.

Of course, same could be said for low quality movies..imagine if the next couple of CBMs end up doing bad (unlikely), but that will change the market.

----------


## Triple J

Just a thought: Do you guys think Guardians would have noticed the events of MOS? Or is it too small of a terrestrial event to be noticed?

It could be the perfect premise for GL to appear..Guardians send someone to investigate (upon learning of the existence of Kryptonians, whom they thought were wiped out) - Abin Sur (his ship unfortunately crash lands and he orders the ring to find a worthy successor).

Of course, the reports/rumors are that we will be getting a John Stewart GL (It could still work; they would just have to ignore Hal?). Or perhaps Hal is already a Lantern, but in a different sector.

----------


## Punisher007

Depends on if there's an Earth GL by now.  I mean there have been plenty of big "cosmic" events in the comics that escaped the Guardian's notice, or they just didn't care because it "doesn't concern them."

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Just a thought: Do you guys think Guardians would have noticed the events of MOS? Or is it too small of a terrestrial event to be noticed?
> 
> It could be the perfect premise for GL to appear..Guardians send someone to investigate (upon learning of the existence of Kryptonians, whom they thought were wiped out) - Abin Sur (his ship unfortunately crash lands and he orders the ring to find a worthy successor).
> 
> Of course, the reports/rumors are that we will be getting a John Stewart GL (It could still work; they would just have to ignore Hal?). Or perhaps Hal is already a Lantern, but in a different sector.


This is a really good question. Zod sent his message/warning to Earth in MoS on pretty much every device and frequency available...I could certainly see Oa picking up the transmission & getting curious. 

Another avenue they could take, and it goes with your posit of Doomsday...if the MoS "documentary" special feature is to be taken as canon (I don't know if it is, but I don't see a reason to exclude it) then decoded messages contain the phrase "Beware Bertrons Curse" (or something like that). If they went with the "mythical to alien civilizations / world-killer" angle for Doomsday, and if he arrived in BvS, then that could be a reason for the Guardians to investigate as well.

----------


## Triple J

> DC will produce "at least" 10 superhero movies between now and 2020, says WB boss #CinemaCon


Via Jim (IGN) - https://twitter.com/StaxIGN/status/590661560101707778

----------


## Robotman

> Via Jim (IGN) - https://twitter.com/StaxIGN/status/590661560101707778


Holy crap! So I guess Dark Universe and Sandman will be added to the list.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Hope they go full R or at very least hard PG-13 for the Dark U and Sandman movies.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Yo, Jeevanjacobjohn this is really a great thread man. Thx for doing this. I was looking on the 1st page checking out the year that some of these movies would come out. And you have Man of Steel 2 for Date unknown. Isn't BvS MOS 2?





> Batman v. Superman has definitely evolved over the past few years. First it was the sequel to MoS with a guest appearence by Batman. Then it became the Batman/Superman team up flick with a brief Wonder Woman cameo. Now apparently Diana has a pretty big role in the film and this movie is basically a Trinity team up. 
> You can't really blame them though as fans have come to expect so much after the Avengers. Even Marvel's "solo" movies have appearances by at least two other heroes. 
> I think it's a great thing. We finally get to see the Trinity on the big screen. Thanks Marvel for finally getting WB off their asses!


I think Warner Bros. is learning from Marvel with this film because, honestly, this has a similar place in the development of the DC Cinematic Universe similar to how Iron Man 2 had with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I remember there was a lot of backlash saying how Iron Man 2 wasn't a true sequel to Iron Man and was just a prequel to the Avengers movie. (Which is funny because I'm sure most of those people loved Avengers.) So it's a smart move for Warner Bros. not to title this film Man of Steel 2: Dawn of Justice. It's a continuation of the story but it's acting as it's own prequel for Justice League rather than a titled Man of Steel sequel.




> Would love to see that...I think the same should go for the League. They shouldn't just band together for fighting a common threat (that's a good reason, but that perhaps shouldn't be the only reason).


I would, too! I agree, it's a good reason but I feel there needs to be more depth to it. I would really like for them to take inspiration from Grant Morrison's run.

----------


## Triple J



----------


## GrandKaiser

That British guy looks a lot like Clark Kent

----------


## Robotman

Apparently Common has been cast in the Suicide Squad in an undisclosed role. 

I'm really hoping for Bronze Tiger. He's one of my favorite characters and was very disappointed he wasnt a part of the initial movie line up.

----------


## Triple J

> Apparently Common has been cast in the Suicide Squad in an undisclosed role. 
> 
> I'm really hoping for Bronze Tiger. He's one of my favorite characters and was very disappointed he wasnt a part of the initial movie line up.


Hope so too!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Apparently Common has been cast in the Suicide Squad in an undisclosed role. 
> 
> I'm really hoping for Bronze Tiger. He's one of my favorite characters and was very disappointed he wasnt a part of the initial movie line up.


That would be a great casting.

----------


## Angelo2113

In regards to the Batman v. Superman trailer; I was more fascinated by the statue and parts of the Chicago skyline but after analyzing it over again is that a memorial from the invasion? With all of the victims' names on the pillars behind the Superman statue?

Edited: Did somebody comment about that earlier in the thread because it sounds familiar that I think about it.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> In regards to the Batman v. Superman trailer; I was more fascinated by the statue and parts of the Chicago skyline but after analyzing it over again is that a memorial from the invasion? With all of the victims' names on the pillars behind the Superman statue?
> 
> Edited: Did somebody comment about that earlier in the thread because it sounds familiar that I think about it.


Yes, it's a memorial put in place to thank Superman for saving the world and for remembering all that died during the invasion.
It almost seems as though Superman is gathering souls to take up into the sky with him.  Powerful imagery.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Yes, it's a memorial put in place to thank Superman for saving the world and for remembering all that died during the invasion.
> It almost seems as though Superman is gathering souls to take up into the sky with him.  Powerful imagery.


It is very powerful. The pose is absolutely beautiful. I enjoy that more than the Superman with the eagle on his arm.

The detail that went into the statue is crazy...

----------


## Black_Adam

_"Like it or not I'm the f***** Aquaman buddy"_

http://www.gotham-news.com/news/2015...t-calgary-expo

Momoa talks a bit about Aquaman. Says he's been hanging out with Geoff Johns which is cool, also his character will to have to fit into the more realistic DCCU so elements from the comic books may be changed. Finally he says Justice League will start filming next year.




> Apparently Common has been cast in the Suicide Squad in an undisclosed role. 
> 
> I'm really hoping for Bronze Tiger. He's one of my favorite characters and was very disappointed he wasnt a part of the initial movie line up.





> Hope so too!





> That would be a great casting.


Going to have to go against the tide here, I like Common but as Ben Turner? Hell no. Dude can go toe to toe with Batman, he's one of the best martial artists in the world, think they should find someone with just a little bit of skill to show this. :Stick Out Tongue: 

Its ironic because Michael Jai White is just perfect for the role and but was hardly used to his full potential on Arrow, would love to see him return as the character in the DCCU.

----------


## Vakanai

> _"Like it or not I'm the f***** Aquaman buddy"_
> 
> http://www.gotham-news.com/news/2015...t-calgary-expo
> 
> Momoa talks a bit about Aquaman. Says he's been hanging out with Geoff Johns which is cool, also his character will to have to fit into the more realistic DCCU so elements from the comic books may be changed. Finally he says Justice League will start filming next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Micheal Jai White would be perfect for the role in Suicide Squad. Although he could work just as well as Black Spider or whoever it was from the animated movie as Bronze Tiger.
Just wouldn't want him killed off in the first one (I'd assume there's likely to be a Suicide Squad 2).

----------


## Robotman

> _"Like it or not I'm the f***** Aquaman buddy"_
> 
> http://www.gotham-news.com/news/2015...t-calgary-expo
> 
> Momoa talks a bit about Aquaman. Says he's been hanging out with Geoff Johns which is cool, also his character will to have to fit into the more realistic DCCU so elements from the comic books may be changed. Finally he says Justice League will start filming next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah Michael Jai White was the perfect choice for Bronze Tiger. But like you say he was very underused.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Do people know if there are plans to bring in J'onn at any point? I think he's got a lot of potential and despite being a great and important league member, he's almost unknown to mainstream audiences. His shapeshifting could make for some awesome ruse's in important onscreen fights.

----------


## Triple J

> Do people know if there are plans to bring in J'onn at any point? I think he's got a lot of potential and despite being a great and important league member, he's almost unknown to mainstream audiences. His shapeshifting could make for some awesome ruse's in important onscreen fights.


Goyer certainly doesn't like him...that being said, I don't think he is involved in JL (even if he is, they certainly could have MM if they wanted to). 


Possibly yes..perhaps later down the line. I would prefer if they were to do the new 52 way - have different teams of JL. MM could be in JLA (created by Waller, or perhaps UN or checkmate or ARGUS or whatever), JLD and perhaps even JLI.

----------


## Robotman

So Mamoa said that the Aquaman movie is going to be "realistic". Seriously, WB needs to put a muzzle on everyone involved in the DC cinematic universe to stop them from using words and phrases like "real world", "realistic", and "dark". I get that they're going for a certain vibe with the world they're building but it just comes off sounding ridiculous, especially when talking about a character who is the King of Atlantis and can also speak to fish. every time someone makes a statement like this it gives angry jaded fanboys more fuel to continue their anti-DC cinematic universe rants. Not that anything can really stop fanboys from being pessimistic and full of hate.  :Smile:  plus we have to wait almost a year to see everyone proven wrong.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

They didnt much for Supes. Doubt theyd change much of Aquamans. Though they may take out the talking fish, thats really the only thing I can think of.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> So Mamoa said that the Aquaman movie is going to be "realistic". Seriously, WB needs to put a muzzle on everyone involved in the DC cinematic universe to stop them from using words and phrases like "real world", "realistic", and "dark". I get that they're going for a certain vibe with the world they're building but it just comes off sounding ridiculous, especially when talking about a character who is the King of Atlantis and can also speak to fish. every time someone makes a statement like this it gives angry jaded fanboys more fuel to continue their anti-DC cinematic universe rants. Not that anything can really stop fanboys from being pessimistic and full of hate.  plus we have to wait almost a year to see everyone proven wrong.


Hey, everyone will call them it regardless, they might as well embrace it.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Apparently Common has been cast in the Suicide Squad in an undisclosed role. 
> 
> I'm really hoping for Bronze Tiger. He's one of my favorite characters and was very disappointed he wasnt a part of the initial movie line up.


Bronze Tiger certainly makes sense considering the franchise, but the late addition makes me think he may be doing a sort of backdoor pilot as John Stewart instead. I mean, if Bronze Tiger really was in the movie, why wait to cast him several weeks into the shooting schedule? And why keep the role undisclosed?

----------


## Iconic

> Do people know if there are plans to bring in J'onn at any point? I think he's got a lot of potential and despite being a great and important league member, he's almost unknown to mainstream audiences. His shapeshifting could make for some awesome ruse's in important onscreen fights.


Might be Common.

----------


## Predator JP

J'onn in Suicide Squad movie? i doubt that.

----------


## Vakanai

> Bronze Tiger certainly makes sense considering the franchise, but the late addition makes me think he may be doing a sort of backdoor pilot as John Stewart instead. I mean, if Bronze Tiger really was in the movie, why wait to cast him several weeks into the shooting schedule? And why keep the role undisclosed?


I see no reason why John Stewart would be in the movie beyond an easter egg.

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

I found this on Newsarama and thought of sharing it here. I love the color and texture on MoS, but I already like better the restored version.-..






If it was already posted I apologize

----------


## Triple J

> I found this on Newsarama and thought of sharing it here. I love the color and texture on MoS, but I already like better the restored version.-..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it was already posted I apologize


I like Man of Steel...and I love this (also I do find it a bit over saturated at points). I believe this perhaps could have calmed down the critics a bit more (still, it's not excusable when a critic judges a movie based on what he/she thought/expected it should be....a critic should at least try to be objective about a movie, right? If not, what's the difference between them and an average moviegoer?).

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Ehh I am not feeling that. Looks too fake and shiny. Film is fine the way it is. Also, this is different take on Superman, why does it have to be like the other films? Just let it be it's own thing!

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I really don't get why the color filter confuses and frightens so many people. I really don't think anybody but comic fans give a crap about it.

----------


## Aliltron

> So Mamoa said that the Aquaman movie is going to be "realistic". Seriously, WB needs to put a muzzle on everyone involved in the DC cinematic universe to stop them from using words and phrases like "real world", "realistic", and "dark". I get that they're going for a certain vibe with the world they're building but it just comes off sounding ridiculous, especially when talking about a character who is the King of Atlantis and can also speak to fish. every time someone makes a statement like this it gives angry jaded fanboys more fuel to continue their anti-DC cinematic universe rants. Not that anything can really stop fanboys from being pessimistic and full of hate.  plus we have to wait almost a year to see everyone proven wrong.


Really hope they don't try to make it too realistic and in turn sacrifice some elements that make Aquaman who he is. That'd be dumb.

----------


## Black_Adam

Any changes they make to Aquaman will probably be to better fit in with the aesthetic of the DCCU, for example I could see Atlantis being less advanced like in the comics and a more feudual/dark age culture. The telepathy I think they will keep, it is a pretty unique and trademark power for Arthur, plus it would have some pretty cool possibilities on screen (Imagine seeing Arthur summon the Kraken!).




> Goyer certainly doesn't like him...that being said, I don't think he is involved in JL (even if he is, they certainly could have MM if they wanted to).


I think Goyer's comments were taken way too seriously and he was just expressing his opinion in a very dry way. After all its true MMH is a character most of the general public would probably have no clue about despite him being on the JL cartoon. Still there is hope for J'onn, Sndyer has said they plan to expand the Justice League down the track, he name dropped Ted Kord but J'onn would have to be a prime candidate as well.

----------


## blaster86

image.jpgimage.jpg
Yup that our new joker

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

If they got rid of the tattoos and bad teeth, and gave him a forked tongue, Leto's Joker could've walked right out of the pages of Batman R.I.P.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Part of me likes it, part of me is a little taken aback. I think Leto will be fun though. He's definitely piqued my interest. Can't wait@

----------


## Coal Tiger

Another winner from DC "we are generally embarrassed of our source material and we have no idea what we are doing" Entertainment.

----------


## TheLemsterPju

Holy crap he looks awful!  :EEK!:

----------


## Black_Adam

Batman has obviously punched out all his front teeth. :Wink: 

Don't minds the tatts the HAHAHA ones are cool, but not sure about the ones on the face, seem a bit much "Damaged"?

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> image.jpgimage.jpg
> Yup that our new joker


Holy crap!
That's awesome!!

----------


## Auguste Dupin

> Batman has obviously punched out all his front teeth.
> 
> Don't minds the tatts the HAHAHA ones are cool, but not sure about the ones on the face, seem a bit much "Damaged"?


He's afraid you might think he's actually sane so he's reminding you that he's, well, "damaged". 
That's very considerate of him, I might say.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jadeb

Looks more like a comic book fan with bad judgment than the Joker.

----------


## liwanag

> image.jpgimage.jpg
> Yup that our new joker


except for the tattoo on the forehead, that is amazing.

----------


## MykeHavoc

I think the head tattoo will fall more under the hairline. Its a bad pun: brain damaged. Which is actually quite Joker-ly. While the look is certainly shockingly different from expectations, I like it. The reaction was quite similar with the first Ledger pic. Its all about seeing it in action.

 Its obvious our new Batman and Joker are being pulled from Miller material quite verbatim:

----------


## Robotman

He looks amazing but the tattoos are so stupid. Oh dear lord he has a tear drop tat. Sigh. Not even going to rant about how dumb the "damaged" tattoo on his forehead is. I have a lot of tattoos and I'm pretty familiar with tattoo culture. The Joker now has what I like to call "d bag tattoos". These are tattoos that a fan of the Insane Clown Posse might have.

Face palm.

----------


## blaster86

You gotta wonder how well Harley look like now lol

----------


## GrandKaiser

They should release photos of every character in the movie.

----------


## MykeHavoc

> He looks amazing but the tattoos are so stupid. Oh dear lord he has a tear drop tat. Sigh. Not even going to rant about how dumb the "damaged" tattoo on his forehead is. I have a lot of tattoos and I'm pretty familiar with tattoo culture. The Joker now has what I like to call "d bag tattoos". These are tattoos that a fan of the Insane Clown Posse might have.
> 
> Face palm.


Looks like a "J". How many d-bag tattoos do you have?

----------


## Robotman

> Looks like a "J". How many d-bag tattoos do you have?


I don't have face, neck, or tribal tattoos. My arms are almost sleeved with mostly superheroes and villains.

[img]https://i.*****.com/vi/pSW2FDXuFe4/maxresdefault.jpg[/img]

----------


## FlashingSabre

Oh God that's awful. Its like the ultimate hipster wet dream version. Why does he have a grill. That's going to look ridiculous, and not it a urosely funny way, in a this-is-so-X-treme 90's way. I was so hyped for this Joker too.

Harley's going to be covered with tattoos, isn't she? Jesus.

----------


## Black_Adam

Ok now they need to show us Deadshot, Harley and Deathstroke, thanks Mr Ayer.

----------


## MykeHavoc

I'll admit, if I had the desire, that's probably what I'd get. But its not my thing. I respect the passion, but find it surprising how judgmental certain factions can get of one another. Its like high school at lunch time. I'm not sure why one persons ink is douchier than another's. 
I tend to date those hair-dressers covered in tats and piercings. I'm not crazy about chest-pieces and dermals... or gauges for that matter. But you know what? Its their bodies, and whatever makes them feel beautiful is all that matters.

----------


## William300

I was really hoping the new Joker would have some Hannibal Lecter in him. Instead they give us a tattooed up gangster.

----------


## FlashingSabre

I realized why I hate this so much: Its trying to hard. This is the Joker. He's crazy. Everyone knows he's crazy. You don't need to literally write it on his forehead.

----------


## William300

Now consider this, the Batman were getting in Batman v Superman is possibly coming out of a extended retirement. What if during Batman's retirement, the Joker has been locked in his cell with no motivation to break out, with nothing to do he's just sat there and stewed in his own madness, and without Batman to vent that madness he's started taking it out on himself via these tattoos.

----------


## Triple J

When I saw it..didn't know what to think. I had mixed feeling about the tattoos..but I don't think it matters (not like Joker is going to walk around shirtless).

Can't wait to see him in action!

Other that that, it's looks awesome..terrifying!

----------


## vasir12

> Attachment 21270Attachment 21270
> Yup that our new joker


Is that a robin tattoo on his arm?

----------


## Typhoeus

I'm ok with this but I really to see it in action to get a real idea of how awesome/crazy he actually is.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Another winner from DC "we are generally embarrassed of our source material and we have no idea what we are doing" Entertainment.


Well that didn't take long...gotta wonder sometimes why certain people even come in this thread. 

Anyway, as someone else said, he won't be shirtless all the time. I like the tats myself, but for those concerned about them just imagine him in a purple suit & a purple hat & he'll look like Joker. Batman RIP indeed, wow. I like it because it's not a re-hash of Jack or Ledger. Can't wait to hear him.

----------


## Sirzechs

Looks like DC/WB succeeded in getting the most Kneejerk reactions from a announcement, soon they'll show how he'll actually look it the movie, becauseI'm pretty sure he won't be half naked all the time.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Well that didn't take long...gotta wonder sometimes why certain people even come in this thread. 
> 
> Anyway, as someone else said, he won't be shirtless all the time. I like the tats myself, but for those concerned about them just imagine him in a purple suit & a purple hat & he'll look like Joker. Batman RIP indeed, wow. I like it because it's not a re-hash of Jack or Ledger. Can't wait to hear him.


The rumour is his intro scene he is shown working out in his cell, ala Sarah Connor in Terminator 2, that is when you see his tatts/scars. Apart from that yeah you would have to assume he will wearing his prison jumpsuit/classic suit when he breaks free. That blurry shot we saw off someones cam looks like he is wearing a white suit.

----------


## borntohula

Perhaps they'v been influenced by Batman RIP?

----------


## The Kid

The Joker look isn't bad at all. The tattoos though are cringeworthy though. Comes off as too 'edgy' and 'try-hard' imo. I hope the dude wears a shirt and they take the damaged out

----------


## Robotman

> I realized why I hate this so much: Its trying to hard. This is the Joker. He's crazy. Everyone knows he's crazy. You don't need to literally write it on his forehead.


This!

10char

----------


## The Kid

^ Exactly. Joker is already a pop culture icon. People know he's crazy. Writing damaged on his head is just too much

----------


## Arnie_2000

> ^ Exactly. Joker is already a pop culture icon. People know he's crazy. Writing damaged on his head is just too much


I honestly think the "damaged" is the only part that i really hate. even his metal teeth kinda makes sense since batman has probably been punching his teeth out for a while now.

----------


## MykeHavoc

When he let's go of his hair, you won't see the word damaged. I'm really surprised that everyone overlooks the bad pun that it is, which is totally Joker-ey.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

I'm alright with the rest of it- kind of neutral on the tattoos, I like the overall stuff-body type & colours-, I do actually like the teeth- but the "damaged" is just too much.

Actually I'll just repost what I said in the other thread:

I've heard a theory that since it doesn't match that one leaked image the teeth, glove and tattoos are actually just there as a joke for the sake of telling Joker's history a bit, hence the #Joker75. But I'm not really that bothered about the rest, this is supposed to be a Joker who's gone nuts in his own cell, and the teeth being there presumably because Batfleck has punched them out so many times kinda makes me laugh. The face tattoo is the real thing I don't like.

...actually, I just zoomed in and the "Damaged" looks as though it's been Photoshopped on. So huh maybe that one is fake, phew.

----------


## InSavnity

Well, Jared Leto definitely has got the eyes for the part. When I look at them I see Brian Bolland's Joker, never a bad thing.

Also, the metal teeth are probably the smartest detail of the whole look! They pretty much tell a whole life of fisticuffs with a bat-themed vigilante by simply being there.  




> I was really hoping the new Joker would have some Hannibal Lecter in him.


Why? _Silence of the Lambs_ is not the be-all and end-all in the field of depictions of psychopaths. We've already had a Hannibal Lecter-ised scene with the friggin' _Trickster_ recently!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Another winner from DC "we are generally embarrassed of our source material and we have no idea what we are doing" Entertainment.


What the hell are you on about?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Perhaps they'v been influenced by Batman RIP?


The tattoos are a bit much... but it certainly looks like this incarnation had some influence.  I think DC has done a pretty damn good job with their cinematic universe costumes so far.  I'm sure movie Flash's costume will make the TV show's costume look silly by comparision.

----------


## Sodam Yat

Jared Leto as the Joker doesn't really look bad at all, but don't care much for the silver teeth. And no, he look nothing like the Joker from R.I.P., which looked horrible.

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

> I think the head tattoo will fall more under the hairline. Its a bad pun: brain damaged. Which is actually quite Joker-ly. While the look is certainly shockingly different from expectations, I like it. The reaction was quite similar with the first Ledger pic. Its all about seeing it in action.
> 
>  Its obvious our new Batman and Joker are being pulled from Miller material quite verbatim:


Edit because the post was full of self entitlement and innacuracy

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

> I was really hoping the new Joker would have some Hannibal Lecter in him. Instead they give us a tattooed up gangster.


I believe it's an excuse to have Leto showing his wonderful physique in every scene.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Another winner from DC "we are generally embarrassed of our source material and we have no idea what we are doing" Entertainment.


Whatever one might think of various aspects of these movies, "DC" doesn't have squat to do with them except loaning out their intellectual property. "DC" doesn't make these movies, Warner Brothers do. 

As for the look, the tattoos are a bit much, but it's all about seeing it in action. The pieces to the puzzle are definitely there, hopefully they'll be assembled correctly as well.

----------


## William300

He looks like an obsessed fan at comic con.

----------


## nightrider

I'm confused as to why people are so upset at this. Isn't this pretty much what joker would look like?

----------


## William300

You know what this is? It's an experiment, there not completely sure what direction to take Joker after Dark Knight so there trying this. The problem is that the DC film universe isn't the place for those experiments. This should have been tried in a standalone comic and then if it's popular then consider doing it in a film. I personally was hoping for a more Hannibal Lecter like Joker, have him be a homicidal genius, but this Joker looks like a self mutilating ranting nut.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Looks a lot better IMO. 

https://twitter.com/ApocalypticSoul/...23156346101760

----------


## Myskin

I rather like the new Joker.
More than everything, I am beginning to discern a plan in the aesthetical approach of DC movies. While Marvel movies have down-to earth aesthetics, without a personal director's style, DC movies are beginning to appear more and more exaggerated, "extreme" and full of saturated colours. Which may appear a bit ridiculous, but I understand it as a way to differentiate them from the Avengers series.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Looks a lot better IMO. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ApocalypticSoul/...23156346101760


That is shaping up to be a really scary joker

----------


## Predator JP

> The tattoos are a bit much... but it certainly looks like this incarnation had some influence.  I think DC has done a pretty damn good job with their cinematic universe costumes so far.  I'm sure movie Flash's costume will make the TV show's costume look silly by comparision.


it does look silly without any comparision, it works only because it's TV show.

----------


## FlashingSabre

> Looks a lot better IMO. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ApocalypticSoul/...23156346101760


Now THAT looks scary as hell. Less is more, DC.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm confused as to why people are so upset at this. Isn't this pretty much what joker would look like?


Agree'd. It is just some comic book fans are afraid of change everything has to be set in stone and they like jumping to the worse conclusions. Joker has a few tats so what? Big deal.

----------


## Robotman

Exclusive first look at Affleck's Bruce Wayne!

----------


## Baba3231

People and their opinions. So inane. The new Joker looks great. The metallic teeth are a nice touch, he's obviously gotten his teeth punched out by Batman over the years, and it makes perfect sense he'd get metallic replacements, he's the sort of crazy F**ker that would bite another guy in a fight. I've got no problems with him being tattooed either, he's not exactly going to be spending the entire film running around shirtless. My only dislike is the damaged tattoo. But we don't know the story behind any of it yet, perhaps the Arkham wardens tattooed it on him by force or something, maybe this joker likes to brand an ironic warning on his forehead, point is, we haven't seen sh*t yet, so there's no point being highly critical. Does he look crazy? Yes. Menacing? Yes. Is a good actor playing the character? Yes. So nothing to complain about, we should all be excited, like I am. I remember when i saw Ledger's Joker for the first time, my initial reaction was that it sucked and he looked like a hobo. Look how great that turned out.

----------


## Triple J

Batman reporting to Authority? Superman as a villain?

Watch from 4 min mark.







> It almost sounds like Superman is the villain in this movie, not Batman as many fans assumed. Batman has a figure of authority to report to — the Mayor in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. And public likes that. Batman makes them feel safe. Superman on the other hand, has no public figure to report to. He just does whatever he wants.
> 
> “At the end of the day, what might matter is the public reception of the superheroes conduct. If Batman executes our wishes in the city, and Superman does whatever the hell he wants… that’s a conflict.” Tyson explained.


Source: http://batman-news.com/2015/04/25/ne...superman-plot/

Hmm, that's a big change..if it's true. Batman reporting to authority? We will see (I don't think WB would just allow Tyson to reveal plot like that...I think they are trying to mislead us. Or maybe not. We will see).

----------


## Triple J

Okay, I just watched the video...I think Tyson is just referring to Batman's affiliation with the authorities (Gordon, or the commissioner in this case), as supposed to Superman...rather than Batman directly 'reporting' to authority (that seems out of character for Bats; of course, it's possible they are doing a different version of Bats where he does).

----------


## Gordonstar

> Exclusive first look at Affleck's Bruce Wayne!


Batman isn't a Type to wear that many tats.

----------


## colonyofcells

For Batman v Superman, it is possible Lex has created a bizarro clone to frame Superman.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Watch from 4 min mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://batman-news.com/2015/04/25/ne...superman-plot/
> 
> Hmm, that's a big change..if it's true. Batman reporting to authority? We will see (I don't think WB would just allow Tyson to reveal plot like that...I think they are trying to mislead us. Or maybe not. We will see).


He's not talking about the movie, he's just talking about a hypothetical situation featuring the two characters.

----------


## Robotman

> Batman reporting to Authority? Superman as a villain?
> 
> Watch from 4 min mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If true Snyder is definitely doing a reverse DKR! Sounds like an interesting idea. It makes me happy to think that Superman will indeed be the sympathetic figure for once in a conflict with Batman.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Once again, Neil was not talking about the movie...he was referring to Batman's relationship with Commissioner Gordon and that's it.

----------


## colonyofcells

Maybe Superman needs to work more closely with Inspector Henderson.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I sometimes hate to be right but I called it back when Leto was announced that he would be more in line with Miller. Not surprising since Snyder seems to be a legit Frank Miller fan, for good and bad


Poor Zach Snyder...now he's getting blamed for movies he isn't directing. Poor bastard can't win  :Frown:  




> Agree'd. It is just some comic book fans are afraid of change everything has to be set in stone and they like jumping to the worse conclusions. Joker has a few tats so what? Big deal.


It's funny...everyone screams that change is too much, that they want what they're familiar with. So Bryan Singer gives us 'Superman Returns', which shares a LOT of Story beats with 'Superman: The Movie' and treads old ground (right down to Routh's likeness to Reeve & Lex's landgrab), and everybody hates it. So they go in the opposite direction, everybody hates it. So the only thing to determine from all of this is that comics fans just hate everything. 




> Batman reporting to Authority? Superman as a villain?
> 
> Watch from 4 min mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This flies in the face of the (early) reports that this Batman is basically the "urban legend" variety, and that Joker is the only one who really knows him. So if those reports are true, then I don't see this happening as a plot point. I think you're right, and it was just a general answer to "who'd win in a fight". 




> What the hell are you on about?


I wouldn't pay much attention to him. Every time news pops up, he comes in the threads to tell everyone how it sucks.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

For all its flaws, at least MoS kept me entertained and awake for more than just a single scene, unlike Superman Returns.

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

> Poor Zach Snyder...now he's getting blamed for movies he isn't directing. Poor bastard can't win


I'm such a dumbass...

----------


## Angelo2113

> If true Snyder is definitely doing a reverse DKR! Sounds like an interesting idea. It makes me happy to think that Superman will indeed be the sympathetic figure for once in a conflict with Batman.


That is exactly what I thought when I saw that video. For example: something could have happened to Batman, Jason's death maybe, that made him either give up the cape and cowl or decide to follow the rules and become a tool for the authority. This would be a great way for Superman to inspire Batman, reignite the fire within him, and once again become an individual force behind justice.

I think that could work out very well.

----------


## Robotman

Well Age of Ultron is getting some mixed reviews. I'm still looking forward to it. Especially the Hulk vs Ironman fight! But the fact that it may not be as great as the first one could leave the door open for Batman v. Superman to win over more people. Up until now it's felt like many fans are averse to anything that doesn't have the MARVEL logo attached. And who can blame them after so many blockbuster hits. It's become a trusted brand. But if AoU isn't that great it may leave people more accepting of the "competitions" cinematic universe.

----------


## Black_Adam

Had a bit of time to let it soak in and I'm actually starting to like this new Joker design a fair bit (still a bit iffy on "damaged"). What would be cool is if he holds his arm up to his face with the smiling tattoo and we see his pearly whites.  :Wink: 




> Well Age of Ultron is getting some mixed reviews. I'm still looking forward to it. Especially the Hulk vs Ironman fight! But the fact that it may not be as great as the first one could leave the door open for Batman v. Superman to win over more people. Up until now it's felt like many fans are averse to anything that doesn't have the MARVEL logo attached. And who can blame them after so many blockbuster hits. It's become a trusted brand. But if AoU isn't that great it may leave people more accepting of the "competitions" cinematic universe.


Seen it here (Australia) already. Typical Marvel popcorn fare, I enjoyed it but like most Marvel movies won't be in any rush to see it again. You can add Ultron to the long list of completely forgettable MCU villains. Effects were amazing though. Funny thing is I did walk out thinking man if only DC was in the game right now, they could definitely provide an alternative for people wanting a bit more/something different.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Seen it here (Australia) already. Typical Marvel popcorn fare, I enjoyed it but like most Marvel movies won't be in any rush to see it again. You can add Ultron to the long list of completely forgettable MCU villains. Effects were amazing though. Funny thing is I did walk out thinking man if only DC was in the game right now, they could definitely provide an alternative for people wanting a bit more/something different.


Strangely enough I had the same problems with AoU that I had with Man of Steel, and found them pretty similar in several aspects. Both have great action that becomes somewhat tedious by the end, both are a bit too long, both have problems with repeating themselves/earlier similar films, and both get bogged down by having a lot of jumbled ideas that never really get properly resolved. It will be interesting to see the general reaction when it hits US cinemas.

----------


## Triple J

> Well Age of Ultron is getting some mixed reviews. I'm still looking forward to it. Especially the Hulk vs Ironman fight! But the fact that it may not be as great as the first one could leave the door open for Batman v. Superman to win over more people. Up until now it's felt like many fans are averse to anything that doesn't have the MARVEL logo attached. And who can blame them after so many blockbuster hits. It's become a trusted brand. But if AoU isn't that great it may leave people more accepting of the "competitions" cinematic universe.


I stopped trusting critics after I saw the reviews for Man of Steel...I won't go and watch AoU, but will definitely get the DVD (I haven't been to theaters in a long time; I usually watch stuff only when it comes out in DVD/Bluray.......but I want to change that when BvS comes out!).

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> 


Man, I need to pick a thread to post in and stick with it. 

Yeah, thought so. Anniversary thing, not the official look.

----------


## Typhoeus

I noticed everybody seems upset about the tattoos.
I guess things would've got better if they had released this type of picture:

Classic Joker outfit.

I like the bat-fandom but comics fans tend to be 'purist'; we tend to dislike anything that differs from the original material.
I still think Jared Leto will be awesome though.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Well Age of Ultron is getting some mixed reviews. I'm still looking forward to it. Especially the Hulk vs Ironman fight! But the fact that it may not be as great as the first one could leave the door open for Batman v. Superman to win over more people. Up until now it's felt like many fans are averse to anything that doesn't have the MARVEL logo attached. And who can blame them after so many blockbuster hits. It's become a trusted brand. But if AoU isn't that great it may leave people more accepting of the "competitions" cinematic universe.


If it is getting mixed reviews then that is a good sign it is actually gonna be a good film lol I hope it is better than the first.

----------


## Robotman

> If it is getting mixed reviews then that is a good sign it is actually gonna be a good film lol I hope it is better than the first.


Actaully look at the TV/Flims message board. A lot of posters who have seen it weren't very impressed.
I'm still looking forward to it but I'm not expecting it to be close to the first one.

----------


## TheDarkNut

> Actaully look at the TV/Flims message board. A lot of posters who have seen it weren't very impressed.
> I'm still looking forward to it but I'm not expecting it to be close to the first one.


I just watch Marvel films for some CGI porn, don't expect much from them and you'll never be disappointed.

----------


## Typhoeus

> I just watch Marvel films for some CGI porn, don't expect much from them and you'll never be disappointed.


I watch the movie a few days ago. It's really a CGI festival and the plot is a bunch of nonsense.

----------


## Angelo2113

JoBlo Editor-in-Chief Paul Shirely is reporting of a rumor that Common is playing Black Manta. It may make sense because isn't Black Manta in the new Suicide Squad series?




> Had a bit of time to let it soak in and I'm actually starting to like this new Joker design a fair bit (still a bit iffy on "damaged"). What would be cool is if he holds his arm up to his face with the smiling tattoo and we see his pearly whites. 
> 
> Seen it here (Australia) already. Typical Marvel popcorn fare, I enjoyed it but like most Marvel movies won't be in any rush to see it again. *You can add Ultron to the long list of completely forgettable MCU villains.* Effects were amazing though. Funny thing is I did walk out thinking man if only DC was in the game right now, they could definitely provide an alternative for people wanting a bit more/something different.


No, don't say that! I'm seeing it Thursday and I still have my hopes up for him being the best MCU villain of all time!

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> JNo, don't say that! I'm seeing it Thursday and I still have my hopes up for him being the best MCU villain of all time!


Spader as Ultron is one of the best parts of the movie IMO, but his plan... I really don't know how they managed to turn something so simple into such a complicated, vague mess.

----------


## Black_Adam

> JoBlo Editor-in-Chief Paul Shirely is reporting of a rumor that Common is playing Black Manta. It may make sense because isn't Black Manta in the new Suicide Squad series?
> 
> 
> 
> No, don't say that! I'm seeing it Thursday and I still have my hopes up for him being the best MCU villain of all time!


Common as Manta? Now THAT.... Wouldn't be too bad actually, I said I didn't want Common as Bronze Tiger purely because of the martial arts aspect but the guy is an underrated actor, I think he could pull off a cold blooded killer like Manta.

As for Ultron, well he could of been great but he needed a bit more exposition. His best scenes were with the twins, I wish they had explored that relationship more they actually shared a lot of similarities in some ways.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Maybe Common and Will Smith are going to make a rap song together

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Maybe Common and Will Smith are going to make a rap song together


Didn't you hear?  That has been officially confirmed.  Haha.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Didn't you hear?  That has been officially confirmed.  Haha.


Well, at least one of them is good at making music.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Tbh I thought Common might end up being John Stewart but him being Manta is coll. (means we could get kaldur down the road)

----------


## GrandKaiser

Can't stop laughing.  :Big Grin:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Lex, Joker and now possibly Manta?

Legion of Doom is taking shape. Make it happen.

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

> Lex, Joker and now possibly Manta?
> 
> Legion of Doom is taking shape. Make it happen.


Exactly what I was thinking. Give me Cheetah and Brainiac and we are game. 
If Common is playing Black Manta is a relief to me, actually. I still hope against hope that somehow Michael Jai White ends up playing Bronze Tiger after been completely misuse in Arrow.

----------


## blaster86

Legion of doom as the reason for the Justice League coming together would be awesome

----------


## GrandKaiser

I think Brainiac and Darkseid will be the villains of the Justice League films.

----------


## Angelo2113

Interesting topic that I wanted to ask, would anybody be interested in Joss Whedon being part of the DC Cinematic Universe?

"Sure. I’d be like 'I have all these joke ideas.' And they’d be like 'No, we don’t do that here,'" "I desperately wanted to do a Batman film – who doesn’t? And I wanted to do Wonder Woman. I was a Marvel kid growing up, but I was always DC-curious. And I see myself on the spectrum in between."

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in the idea and would hope he never comes to Warner Bros./DC unless they keep him close to their vision and plan for the DC Cinematic Universe. I believe he does amazing work with his own created projects but I haven't truly enjoyed anything he's done with comic books, movies and actual comic books. Although, with that being said, I think if he were a part of the Shazam film, he could bring a light touch to it that I think would benefit in regards to film making.




> Spader as Ultron is one of the best parts of the movie IMO, but his plan... I really don't know how they managed to turn something so simple into such a complicated, vague mess.


Really? I'm hoping they use Ultron by introducing a sense of danger, similar to Skynet, to the entire Avengers team. I'll keep a sharp eye on his plan.




> Common as Manta? Now THAT.... Wouldn't be too bad actually, I said I didn't want Common as Bronze Tiger purely because of the martial arts aspect but the guy is an underrated actor, I think he could pull off a cold blooded killer like Manta.
> 
> As for Ultron, well he could of been great but he needed a bit more exposition. His best scenes were with the twins, I wish they had explored that relationship more they actually shared a lot of similarities in some ways.


I think so, too. It'll be interesting to see if the casting is true and when the events of Suicide Squad take part in terms of Batman v. Superman and how that will relate to Black Manta and Aquaman.

I have heard quite a bit from others that his best scenes were with the twins. I'm hoping I can enjoy Ultron on his own when I see the movie.

Thanks for the comments!




> I think Brainiac and Darkseid will be the villains of the Justice League films.


I agree but I really would like to see a team vs. team Justice League film at some point in the future. Especially if it were similar to Tower of Babel/Justice League: Doom. It may be questionable though because I think that would be a side of Batman that may not be taken too well by the general audience.

----------


## William300

Justice League 1: Braniac
Justice League 2: Legion of Doom led by Lex Luthor
Justice League 3: Darkseid
Justice League 4: Tower of Babel, Batman's anti JL plan being used against them
Justice League 5: Braniac with his creation, Doomsday, causes Superman's death

----------


## Angelo2113

Something big has to happen in Justice League because isn't it a two-part film? Is it actually a continuation or is there going to be a pause in between? The Flash, Aquaman, and Shazam are planned to be released between the first and second part.

----------


## Triple J

By the way, I recently watched Man of Steel (Again, but this time with the commentary that comes along with the Bluray). They showcase a lot of things I didn't notice in my previous viewings (such as designing a whole Kryptonian language and using it for the movie).

One of the extras also talk about the destruction (I believe it's the Krypton documentary)...Star Labs, WayneTech and Lexcorp recovering a lot of stuff from the attacks...Military picking up information from the frequency Zod used to transmit his message to Earth.

Apparently, most of the information in the documentary was discovered through this channel (it also mentions a few other things, such as scientists/linguists being able to decode the Kryptonian language....some others studying the weapons and how they were able to contain and use plasma energy etc).

*Star Labs* - experimentation with the Kryptonian armor and combining Kryptonian with Earth metals may result in Victor's transformation to Cyborg.

*Military* - I bet Sam Lane would be using some of that information to subdue Superman.

So will Lex and Bruce through the information they managed to acquire. Lex could easily create Bizzaro and perhaps even Superboy through Zod's DNA (assuming he got hold of it). Bizzaro as the first creation..Superboy as the last (and close to perfect clone).

Or perhaps Superboy is created through Superman's DNA.

As for the Kryptonians..Well, all Kryptonians now live through Superman (since their DNA is embedded within his body). So, a sample of his tissue could be very vital to anyone - friend or foe.

Also learned about the classes in Krypton - Society is warrior based one (hence everyone knows something about fighting). But, there are several 'guilds' - Warriors (like Zod), Free Thinkers (like Jor-El), Artisans, Laborers and Mediators.

And of course, let's not forget that Krypton used to be be an explorer society..yes, they do mention that a lot of the outposts were destroyed, cut off from Krypton. But, what if a few survived?

And what if they coexisted with the inhabitants planet they visited (Daxam could be an example - Daxamites such descendants of Kryptonians and some other species).

----------


## Robotman

They may have to use the Legion of Doom (or more likely call it The Society since that sounds less comic booky and more "real world). AoU will be the second film in a row that they face an army of disposable drones. If they use Brainiac or Darkseid odds are the League will spend most of its time beating down their minions, which would be way too similar to the Avengers films. 
A battle royale where a good team fights an evil team would be something a bit different.

----------


## William300

> They may have to use the Legion of Doom (or more likely call it The Society since that sounds less comic booky and more "real world). AoU will be the second film in a row that they face an army of disposable drones. If they use Brainiac or Darkseid odds are the League will spend most of its time beating down their minions, which would be way too similar to the Avengers films. 
> A battle royale a good team fights an evil team would be something a bit different.


Disposable drones? I don't think that's how it's going to be (I don't know, havent seen it). I think the idea is that their all Ultron, imagine how creepy and cool if they Ultron talks through all of them, all at once.

----------


## Robotman

> Disposable drones? I don't think that's how it's going to be (I don't know, havent seen it). I think the idea is that their all Ultron, imagine how creepy and cool if they Ultron talks through all of them, all at once.


Yeah but it doesn't matter if Hulk takes out 20 of them because there's always more. They're just there so the heroes can have something to smash. Endless waives of Red Shirts.

I'm not saying it isn't very fun to watch but if they used the same formula in the Justice League movie things may get a bit stale and they would be accused of just copying the Avengers.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So news is coming out saying DC played everyone with that Joker pic lol, and that would explain why Geoff Johns was like "Hahahaha". Or why (Zack) Snyder was like "Jokes on you Batman #cryptic". We can all breathe now haha!!

----------


## FlashingSabre

> So news is coming out saying DC played everyone with that Joker pic lol, and that would explain why Geoff Johns was like "Hahahaha". Or why (Zack) Snyder was like "Jokes on you Batman #cryptic". We can all breathe now haha!!


Wait really? To Google *dunanunanunanuna*

----------


## William300

> So news is coming out saying DC played everyone with that Joker pic lol, and that would explain why Geoff Johns was like "Hahahaha". Or why (Zack) Snyder was like "Jokes on you Batman #cryptic". We can all breathe now haha!!


thank goodness, I don't think Joker would be able to sit down long enough to get a tattoo, he'd probably get bored and shove the tattoo gun through the artists eye.

----------


## Robotman

> So news is coming out saying DC played everyone with that Joker pic lol, and that would explain why Geoff Johns was like "Hahahaha". Or why (Zack) Snyder was like "Jokes on you Batman #cryptic". We can all breathe now haha!!


I'm not gonna get my hopes up yet. I'm waiting for full confirmation that it was a joke.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Justice League 1: Braniac
> Justice League 2: Legion of Doom led by Lex Luthor
> Justice League 3: Darkseid
> Justice League 4: Tower of Babel, Batman's anti JL plan being used against them
> Justice League 5: Braniac with his creation, Doomsday, causes Superman's death


I think this fits better in DC's movie universe.

Justice League 1: Groaning
Justice League 2: Groaning and grunting
Justice League 3: Posing with head down and groaning
Justice League 4: Booster Gold shows up and groans
Justice League 5: Superman cracks a smile for 2 seconds (mid-groan)

----------


## Triple J

Viola Davis on the set on SS



https://instagram.com/p/1_7S_QIqIY/

----------


## Black_Adam

Man if the tatts are fake it will be hilarious, all that rage for nothing. 
original.jpg

----------


## GrandKaiser

> Viola Davis on the set on SS
> 
> 
> 
> https://instagram.com/p/1_7S_QIqIY/


Interesting! Not the hair style I was expecting. I can't wait to see her performance though, she is an AMAZING actress with the right attitude and swagger to play someone like Waller.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Viola Davis on the set on SS
> 
> 
> 
> https://instagram.com/p/1_7S_QIqIY/


Awesome. Seems very Waller on the left.

----------


## Beantownbrown

If it's true the tats are not real then Joker said it best

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Viola Davis on the set on SS
> 
> 
> 
> https://instagram.com/p/1_7S_QIqIY/


Awesome. Davis really is the perfect middle ground between the iconic Waller and the younger, typically hotter version of the New 52.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Ben Affleck arrives in Toronto 

http://www.etalk.ca/news/ben-affleck-arrives-in-toronto

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Ben Affleck arrives in Toronto 
> 
> http://www.etalk.ca/news/ben-affleck-arrives-in-toronto


So Jared Leto apparently just goes about his regular life now dressed as the Joker.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> So Jared Leto apparently just goes about his regular life now dressed as the Joker.


Can't way to see him do the talk show circuit dressed up like The Clown Prince of Crime a la Paul Reubens/Pee Wee Herman back in the '80s.  :Wink:

----------


## Nite-Wing

> So Jared Leto apparently just goes about his regular life now dressed as the Joker.


Its called Method acting 
Ayer likes a lot of the actors in his movies to stay in character to pull out a better performance

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Its called Method acting 
> Ayer likes a lot of the actors in his movies to stay in character to pull out a better performance


Can't be it. Joker would never wear New Balance trainers, I'm pretty sure he's a Nike fan.

----------


## nightw1ng

> So Jared Leto apparently just goes about his regular life now dressed as the Joker.


Uhhh... besides the green hair and shaved eyebrows, he's dressed like a normal person.  I'm sure one of the reasons he keeps the hair dyed green is because it's a lot more efficient than washing it out and reapplying it everyday (and a lot less harsh on your hair).  This isn't an example of method acting.

----------


## Liquid

> Can't way to see him do the talk show circuit dressed up like The Clown Prince of Crime a la Paul Reubens/Pee Wee Herman back in the '80s.


Ever since I read DKR, the idea of Joker on talk shows terrifies me.

----------


## Triple J

The Joker is ripped!



https://instagram.com/p/2BlW_QzBS1/

----------


## GrandKaiser

Holey moley!!!

----------


## Pinsir

He's a big guy.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Ever since I read DKR, the idea of Joker on talk shows terrifies me.


Heh. Good point.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Angelo2113

Dang. That had to be right after a work out. I love that he's wearing a Superman shirt.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Ben Affleck arrives in Toronto 
> 
> http://www.etalk.ca/news/ben-affleck-arrives-in-toronto


Apparently he's on set...

CDs0dNIWIAAu9ts.jpg

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah, that would be a major mess. What WB could do, though, is not cut it like it did BvS.


Yeah. That's really the biggest mistake they made with BvS. The mere fact that critics who hated BvS agreed that the Extended Cut would've been much better pretty much cements it.

Without the cuts, BvS would've been a flawed, but much more enjoyable, movie that would've gotten better reviews and probably would've gotten even closer to a billion dollars. If Justice League gets put together right, it will likely be fine.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Just throwing my two cents into this but I want a good movie first. 
What I mean is that the cut we get in theaters is the cut the audience is intended on seeing. I hear the extended cut of BVS is flawed and yet more cohesive, which is a shame since that despite being better than the theatrical cut is not what was shown in theaters. I should not have to seek out the extended edition of a film for it to be enjoyable, it should sell me on the extended edition the first time around because if the movie is good, I want to see more and will pay for more. If a movie is bad when I see it in the theater it's very likely I'm not going to seek out the DVD/Blu-ray/digital deluxe whatever of a movie and watch it again. First impressions are very important when it comes to spending money on a product.

----------


## golgi

> The point still stands.  The state of the Flash and Batman movies is proof of that.  The rate at which DC/WB has been losing directors and doing page one rewrites after announcements is absolutely not normal.


They lost him due to scheduling conflicts.

----------


## Pinsir

> The point still stands.  The state of the Flash and Batman movies is proof of that.  The rate at which DC/WB has been losing directors and doing page one rewrites after announcements is absolutely not normal.


Sounds good to me. We don't need a Flash movie because we have the tv show and Batman has been done to death. Both these properties need an extended fallow period for me to care about them, whereas the projects I am interested in are moving forward.

----------


## LordTrump

> Sounds good to me. We don't need a Flash movie because we have the tv show and Batman has been done to death. Both these properties need an extended fallow period for me to care about them, whereas the projects I am interested in are moving forward.


Some hypothesize that the Flash tv show will be over by the movie's release.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> They lost him due to scheduling conflicts.


I understand that, but the rate at which they have been losing directors is still not normal.  The same goes for the page one rewrites.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Just throwing my two cents into this but I want a good movie first. 
> What I mean is that the cut we get in theaters is the cut the audience is intended on seeing. I hear the extended cut of BVS is flawed and yet more cohesive, which is a shame since that despite being better than the theatrical cut is not what was shown in theaters. I should not have to seek out the extended edition of a film for it to be enjoyable, it should sell me on the extended edition the first time around because if the movie is good, I want to see more and will pay for more. If a movie is bad when I see it in the theater it's very likely I'm not going to seek out the DVD/Blu-ray/digital deluxe whatever of a movie and watch it again. First impressions are very important when it comes to spending money on a product.


This is just one reason why I said "F.U." to Fox for their Rogue Cut of X-men: DOFP.  

With BvS though, honestly I was satisfied with the theatrical cut. The flaws that really affected my enjoyment had only a little to do with the editing.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

BvS Ultimate Cut is the one that should have been in theaters, period. Sure, the 3 hour run time probably would have impacted ticket salss, but I doubt it would have had 27% on RT. The re-reviews I read from critics of the UE was that it was still a flawed movie, but at least aspects of the story were explained and fleshed out. It probably would have been in the 30s/40s on RT and maybe more people would have given it a chance. 

Jackson's LotR trilogy was great, but with all of the lore, the extended editions were a huge plus to movies that were already great.

Suicide Squad's extra 10 mins are hardly registered, imo. That crap was a money grab. WB needs to tread carefully and hopefully they don't start a trend with these extended cuts, because fans will catch on.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Just throwing my two cents into this but I want a good movie first. 
> What I mean is that the cut we get in theaters is the cut the audience is intended on seeing. I hear the extended cut of BVS is flawed and yet more cohesive, which is a shame since that despite being better than the theatrical cut is not what was shown in theaters. I should not have to seek out the extended edition of a film for it to be enjoyable, it should sell me on the extended edition the first time around because if the movie is good, I want to see more and will pay for more. If a movie is bad when I see it in the theater it's very likely I'm not going to seek out the DVD/Blu-ray/digital deluxe whatever of a movie and watch it again. First impressions are very important when it comes to spending money on a product.


Ordinarily, I would agree with you. But BvS was a bit of a unique situation. The Extended Cut was supposed to be the version of BvS you saw in the theaters. WB told Snyder he could make a three-hour movie. At every stage of production, he was making this movie under the belief that he had three hours in which to tell his story. Then? WB chickened out because they somehow thought that a three-hour movie wouldn't sell as many tickets, completely forgetting the success of Titanic, Avatar, and all EIGHT Lord of the Rings movies. They ordered him to cut out a half an hour from the movie maybe a month or two before the release date.

It remains uncertain who actually made the decisions about what actually got cut, but my suspicion is that WB made at least most of those calls. Why? Because look at the stuff that got cut and the stuff that didn't get cut. The Knightmare sequence? The Justice League intro videos? Scenes that had no purpose in the movie other than to basically advertise the fact that more DC movies were on the way were allowed to remain in the movie, while important character development moments like Superman saving people after the Capitol bombing, Lois Lane's investigation, and Superman's decision to go after Batman after speaking to a woman who just lost a loved one because of Batman's actions got cut. 

If that doesn't scream "Studio decision" I don't know what does. 

So the Extended Cut is the movie we would have had if WB had just kept their promise to Snyder. Heck, if they REALLY insisted on cutting some scenes, they could've cut the Knightmare sequence, the Justice League intros, and maybe a few other not-as-relevant scenes instead.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Vanguard just dropped the mic on that one. 

 :Wink:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> The point still stands.  The state of the Flash and Batman movies is proof of that.  The rate at which DC/WB has been losing directors and doing page one rewrites after announcements is absolutely not normal.


State of? Batman solo was never given a official release date, Affleck since day one said the script wasn't right, heck it still isn't solicited. Flash hasn't worked out I agree something obviously isn't right and so they decided to do a page one re-write seems perfectly reasonable and a wise decision to make given the circumstance. 




> Sounds good to me. We don't need a Flash movie because we have the tv show and Batman has been done to death. Both these properties need an extended fallow period for me to care about them, whereas the projects I am interested in are moving forward.


That is you, the ratings of Flash TV show have dropped to the point it only gets on average 3 million views, and 3 million is nothing compared to the people who will see the live action movie, heck more people have seen Flash in BvS than the TV show that has been airing for 3 seasons. Movie is able to reach MORE people, a Flash movie is absolutely necessary. That is why despite what MARVEL say their TV and Movie universe by all accounts is "separate" and why you'll never see the likes of DD in an MCU movie and why the Netflix shows are getting their Avengers style TV show. 




> BvS Ultimate Cut is the one that should have been in theaters, period. Sure, the 3 hour run time probably would have impacted ticket salss, but I doubt it would have had 27% on RT. The re-reviews I read from critics of the UE was that it was still a flawed movie, but at least aspects of the story were explained and fleshed out. It probably would have been in the 30s/40s on RT and maybe more people would have given it a chance. 
> 
> Jackson's LotR trilogy was great, but with all of the lore, the extended editions were a huge plus to movies that were already great.
> 
> *Suicide Squad's extra 10 mins are hardly registered, imo. That crap was a money grab. WB needs to tread carefully and hopefully they don't start a trend with these extended cuts, because fans will catch on.*


Extended cut aside the whole of SS was pretty much WB trying to hop on too fast and assuming BvS would be the perfect the footing, this can shown by the fact the whole production was rushed, with DA doing the script in mere weeks etc. Extended cut was obviously just trying to build hype up for the home video. 2017 WB seem already miles ahead of 2016 WB, the fact Patty was able to make the WW movie she wants I was worried that WB would make the run time 2hrs or less, the fact they were willing to push JL back for Zack. Hey if 2016 is used a learning curve for WB then that is great from screwing Zack to messing with SS with all these competing cuts crap. 

If JL follows in what seems to be a hit of a film in WW, than 2016 will easily be forgotten!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I think BvS arrived too late, had it come out a decade a go, I think it would have appreciated a LOT more. People say Snyder is style over substance yet the main fight didn't happen until 2hrs in the film and the only action set piece before that was the Batmobile chase scene.
 I recently watched GOTG2 and for a majority the film it was a sit-com with action every other scene, the story was incredibly paper thin (the whole plot basically hinged on a decision a character made for absolutely no reason other than they just could), just makes me appreciate the likes of Spider-man 1,2 TDK Trilogy, BvS, Logan etc so much more.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> State of? Batman solo was never given a official release date, Affleck since day one said the script wasn't right, heck it still isn't solicited. Flash hasn't worked out I agree something obviously isn't right and so they decided to do a page one re-write seems perfectly reasonable and a wise decision to make given the circumstance.


The state of the Flash movie is obvious.  A release date was announced long ago and will now likely be at least two years delayed with recently announced movies likely to be coming out before it.  The script is being rewritten again and the constant shifting of directors is horrible.  The point is that it isn't even close to normal... not when you actually announce a definite release date for a tentpole project.  Anyone who thinks that what is happening with The Flash movie is normal doesn't really understand how things work.  Sure directors drop out when things are in development purgatory with no release date or castings.  However when castings are announced with a release date announced and several directors drop out (the most recent drop out happening just before scheduled production)... there are issues.  The plan was for Miller to be done filming Flash by the time he was needed for Fantastic Beasts.  We also can't ignore the fact that the new writer of the Flash, Joby Harold's King Arthur movie just bombed majorly.  The only plus side I see there is that apparently his pitch for and Arthur franchise was great but his vision for the film never made it to the screen.  I really hope this is true.  It all gives me a bad flashback to when they were so confident that Will Beal would write a great Justice League... which he obviously didn't do.  We all the big hit that Gangster Squad ended up being.

If they can't lock a director on they shouldn't be making the announcement... leaks are a different beast.  The Batman still had the issue of announcing a director and then backtracking.  Granted the circumstances are different, but it still points to issues at WB/DC.  I know people who work at DC Entertainment... they wanted to have a Batman movie out by 2019.   My whole point is that they need to stop announcing dates and directors unless they know that the directors are committed.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> That is you, the ratings of Flash TV show have dropped to the point it only gets on average 3 million views, and 3 million is nothing compared to the people who will see the live action movie, heck more people have seen Flash in BvS than the TV show that has been airing for 3 seasons. Movie is able to reach MORE people, a Flash movie is absolutely necessary. That is why despite what MARVEL say their TV and Movie universe by all accounts is "separate" and why you'll never see the likes of DD in an MCU movie and why the Netflix shows are getting their Avengers style TV show.


The Flash movie is needed even more when you look at the steady and consistent decline in quality of the TV show.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

After seeing Wonder Woman I am beginning to wonder if Jenkins will be offered JL2...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> The Flash movie is needed even more when you look at the steady and consistent decline in quality of the TV show.


I stopped watching after S2, the comments I read for S3 don't make me keen to pick it up. S2 was a massive quality whiplash from S1.

----------


## AcesX1X

> After seeing Wonder Woman I am beginning to wonder if Jenkins will be offered JL2...


interesting.  was it really that good?   i have to wait until week after next to see it   :Mad:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> After seeing Wonder Woman I am beginning to wonder if Jenkins will be offered JL2...


If she brings DC it's first undisputed commercial and critical success? She just might. Or MOS 2. We already know she's a big Superman fan as well as a Wonder Woman fan. If she could do for Superman what it looks like she'll be doing for Wonder Woman? That might be just what the doctor ordered for Superman. 

I'd be down with either possibility.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> interesting.  was it really that good?   i have to wait until week after next to see it


Three posters on the Wonder Woman forum saw it last night. They're RAVING about it. Sounds like it's a definite winner.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> If she brings DC it's first undisputed commercial and critical success? She just might. Or MOS 2. We already know she's a big Superman fan as well as a Wonder Woman fan. If she could do for Superman what it looks like she'll be doing for Wonder Woman? That might be just what the doctor ordered for Superman. 
> 
> I'd be down with either possibility.


I disagree I prefer she stay with WW and craft a perfect Trilogy there. Let someone else deal with JL and Superman she has a good thing going with WW don't wanna disrupt that.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I disagree I prefer she stay with WW and craft a perfect Trilogy there. Let someone else deal with JL and Superman she has a good thing going with WW don't wanna disrupt that.


She may be able to do both, if she's willing to commit to being a full-time DCEU director. Obviously, it will depend on what she's offered and how she feels about doing basically nothing but CBMs for the next several years. 

Obviously, if forced to make a choice, I hope she chooses to do a Wonder Woman trilogy first and foremost.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> interesting.  was it really that good?   i have to wait until week after next to see it


Easily the best DCEU movie... and better than most Marvel.  Quality similar to The Dark Knight... but with more comic superheroics.  Logan was good, but I'm not sure how much fun it would be watching it over and over.  Wonder Woman has that quality.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Wonder Woman box office analyses by Scott Mendelson for those interested:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#1be183a1711b

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#6024f6ee19ec

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#3166c30f4300

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Easily the best DCEU movie... and better than most Marvel.  Quality similar to The Dark Knight... but with more comic superheroics.  Logan was good, but I'm not sure how much fun it would be watching it over and over.  Wonder Woman has that quality.


Thanks for sharing.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Easily the best DCEU movie... and better than most Marvel.  Quality similar to The Dark Knight... but with more comic superheroics.  Logan was good, but I'm not sure how much fun it would be watching it over and over.  Wonder Woman has that quality.


Damn the calendar!  Damn it to HELL!!!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Thanks for sharing.


I've noticed that I'm not the only one comparing it to Logan or The Dark Knight in terms of quality.  The movie just had some magic to it.  It is unfair to compare it to The First Avenger.  It is quite easily better than Batman Begins.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I've noticed that I'm not the only one comparing it to Logan or The Dark Knight in terms of quality.  The movie just had some magic to it.  It is unfair to compare it to The First Avenger.  It is quite easily better than Batman Begins.


That's pretty incredible and I trust you.

----------


## AcesX1X

these are all very good signs, i hope they keep coming in like this.  i feel the fans are truly ready to wonder

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> That's pretty incredible and I trust you.


I don't want to raise expectations too high.  I am pretty confident that many will agree that it is better than Batman Begins.  Too many people revere TDK... I don't want to be accused of heresy.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Gal and Lynda at the LA premier

----------


## FlashingSabre

> After seeing Wonder Woman I am beginning to wonder if Jenkins will be offered JL2...


Too. Much. HYPE!!!!!!!!

i'm really excited

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The state of the Flash movie is obvious.  A release date was announced long ago and will now likely be at least two years delayed with recently announced movies likely to be coming out before it.  The script is being rewritten again and the constant shifting of directors is horrible.  The point is that it isn't even close to normal... not when you actually announce a definite release date for a tentpole project.  Anyone who thinks that what is happening with The Flash movie is normal doesn't really understand how things work.  Sure directors drop out when things are in development purgatory with no release date or castings.  However when castings are announced with a release date announced and several directors drop out (the most recent drop out happening just before scheduled production)... there are issues.  The plan was for Miller to be done filming Flash by the time he was needed for Fantastic Beasts.  We also can't ignore the fact that the new writer of the Flash, Joby Harold's King Arthur movie just bombed majorly.  The only plus side I see there is that apparently his pitch for and Arthur franchise was great but his vision for the film never made it to the screen.  I really hope this is true.  It all gives me a bad flashback to when they were so confident that Will Beal would write a great Justice League... which he obviously didn't do.  We all the big hit that Gangster Squad ended up being.
> 
> If they can't lock a director on they shouldn't be making the announcement... leaks are a different beast.  The Batman still had the issue of announcing a director and then backtracking.  Granted the circumstances are different, but it still points to issues at WB/DC.  I know people who work at DC Entertainment... they wanted to have a Batman movie out by 2019.   My whole point is that they need to stop announcing dates and directors unless they know that the directors are committed.


They even announced the main villain of Batman and the person who was supposed to play him and now zilch.

----------


## Steven Kaye

Now I really, really want a Superman/Wonder Woman team-up directed by Patty Jenkins.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The point still stands.  The state of the Flash and Batman movies is proof of that.  The rate at which DC/WB has been losing directors and doing page one rewrites after announcements is absolutely not normal.


To be fair, it's really only the Flash.

Batman would've had one person being the star, director, writer, and producer....which is an insane workload considering he doesn't just wanna do DCEU movies. Matt Reeves being the director is a good thing, because that means they're taking their time...also he's currently finishing up WotPotA.

Doug Liman dropped off of JLD due to scheduling, but, if you've noticed, recently, that's kind of been his MO. 

So yeah, the only issues seem to be with the Flash. It doesn't help that the two directors their talking to have other projects they're currently working on before they could potentially work on Flash.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> My question is why Zack wanted to stick to the original date ? 
> 
> No offense to the recent loss in the family and all that, but Justice League could turn out to be dark with a bit of jokes. If I was WB and given the history of the DCEU films so far, I would have Whendon overlook the entire film so far to see what works and what doesn't and change from there. 
> 
> That way it will not be criticized by audiences if it turns out too dark and little sense.


You do realize that the hopeful, and inspirational, story that the critics say WW has was written by Zack...right? Clearly he knows what he wants to do, depending on the direction he wishes to go. JL, even before the release of BvS, was always said to be more hopeful, where as the point of BvS, and MoS, to an extent, was clearly deconstruction on a realistic level.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think BvS arrived too late, had it come out a decade a go, I think it would have appreciated a LOT more. People say Snyder is style over substance yet the main fight didn't happen until 2hrs in the film and the only action set piece before that was the Batmobile chase scene.
>  I recently watched GOTG2 and for a majority the film it was a sit-com with action every other scene, the story was incredibly paper thin (the whole plot basically hinged on a decision a character made for absolutely no reason other than they just could), just makes me appreciate the likes of Spider-man 1,2 TDK Trilogy, BvS, Logan etc so much more.


Well said. Not to mention the development of Batman in BvS is what the MCU was trying to do with Stark in IM2 and IM3. Showing how the weight of the futility of heroism can affect, and even corrupt, even the greatest (then Logan came in this year, and damn near perfected it).

BvS's problems were nearly all studio problems. However, besides his very nuanced motivation/reasoning, Zack's version of Lex was more miss than hit.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> To be fair, it's really only the Flash.
> 
> Batman would've had one person being the star, director, writer, and producer....which is an insane workload considering he doesn't just wanna do DCEU movies. Matt Reeves being the director is a good thing, because that means they're taking their time...also he's currently finishing up WotPotA.
> 
> Doug Liman dropped off of JLD due to scheduling, but, if you've noticed, recently, that's kind of been his MO. 
> 
> So yeah, the only issues seem to be with the Flash. It doesn't help that the two directors their talking to have other projects they're currently working on before they could potentially work on Flash.


The Flash director considerations are less of an issue now because Miller is unavailable.  They can't start filming until 2018 now anyway.  That is why they can consider those two directors.  Everyone's availability seems to match up.

The Batman still announced its director and villain and has now backtracked from that with another page one rewrite... with possibly a different villain.  That has been my point from the start... at least they didn't announce a release date although I do know the year that they were targeting.  So yes, it applies to The Batman as well.  They have had their issues... not nearly as bad as The Flash but the movie is not coming out when WB/DC was hoping it would.  Matt Reeves is a great choice as a director and they are course correcting (as the entire DCEU is) but they still wanted to get something out sooner.




> You do realize that the hopeful, and inspirational, story that the critics say WW has was written by Zack...right? Clearly he knows what he wants to do, depending on the direction he wishes to go. JL, even before the release of BvS, was always said to be more hopeful, where as the point of BvS, and MoS, to an extent, was clearly deconstruction on a realistic level.


Snyder was given story credit but everyone I have talked to has said that the story brought to screen is largely Heinberg and Johns' vision.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> She may be able to do both, if she's willing to commit to being a full-time DCEU director. Obviously, it will depend on what she's offered and how she feels about doing basically nothing but CBMs for the next several years. 
> 
> Obviously, if forced to make a choice, I hope she chooses to do a Wonder Woman trilogy first and foremost.


Of course but I can't really see her committing to CBMs tbh, Snyder had already shown interest in other projects post JL, Nolan who is guess is similar to Patty (in that they both became known for a CBM) decided to do other projects in between his TDK Trilogy and he's know completely dropped CBMs. 

I think Patty would want to go this direction, I feel directors feel only doing one type of genre will be stagnant, I certainly won't blame her in fact I encourage her too. (Not completely drop CBMs but doing other projects in between). 




> Snyder was given story credit but everyone I have talked to has said that the story brought to screen is largely Heinberg and Johns' vision.


It seems Snyder laid the ground work out, he probably laid out the major plot points etc and Johns and Heinberg then took these and turned it into a fully fleshed script.

----------


## Robotman

Gal training with Conan O'Brien

----------


## nightbird

> The Flash director considerations are less of an issue now because Miller is unavailable.  They can't start filming until 2018 now anyway.  That is why they can consider those two directors.  Everyone's availability seems to match up.
> 
> *The Batman still announced its director and villain and has now backtracked from that with another page one rewrite... with possibly a different villain.*  That has been my point from the start... at least they didn't announce a release date although I do know the year that they were targeting.  So yes, it applies to The Batman as well.  They have had their issues... not nearly as bad as The Flash but the movie is not coming out when WB/DC was hoping it would.  Matt Reeves is a great choice as a director and they are course correcting (as the entire DCEU is) but they still wanted to get something out sooner.


Batman is not having page one rewrites; they're altering script for Matt Reeves likes. They will also still use Deathstroke as a villain, maybe just not the only one.

----------


## Desean101101

> Batman is not having page one rewrites; they're altering script for Matt Reeves likes. They will also still use Deathstroke as a villain, maybe just not the only one.


Also Ben Affleck had to cut down and get himself out of his alcoholism and depression. So he dropped out of doing the whole Batman project while he cleaned himself up. He had to sit back and get his priorities straight, get himself sober, spend time with his kids, continue his career .

----------


## Punisher007

I want to see Diana and Mera team up myself.  Or Diana and Aquaman, or heck both of them.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Batman is not having page one rewrites; they're altering script for Matt Reeves likes. They will also still use Deathstroke as a villain, maybe just not the only one.


So you must know more than Mangianello.  He said that he isn't sure if he is even in the movie anymore.  What I've been saying is that they shouldn't be so quick to make announcements until they have everything locked down.  Those points stand regardless of how you rationalize it.

----------


## nightbird

> So you must know more than Mangianello.  He said that he isn't sure if he is even in the movie anymore.  What I've been saying is that they shouldn't be so quick to make announcements until they have everything locked down.  Those points stand regardless of how you rationalize it.


And after that he several times talked about playing Deathstroke and how he is training/preparing for the role, then had a lunch with Marv Wolfman, while still being active on social media with other DC actors/producers. Yes, they will make some changes in what kind of role Deathstroke would play in new Batman movie, but they're far from dropping him.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> And after that he several times talked about playing Deathstroke and how he is training/preparing for the role, then had a lunch with Marv Wolfman, while still being active on social media with other DC actors/producers. Yes, they will make some changes in what kind of role Deathstroke would play in new Batman movie, but they're far from dropping him.


That remains to be seen... I never said  he wasn't playing Deathstroke.  There are several other DC movies coming out before The Batman.  They could even be adding more Deathstroke scenes to JL.   This all still strays from the main point of not making announcements until they are committed and ready.  The Batman won't be out by the time that they had hoped.  I already stated earlier how I know this.  Also if you truly know that he is definitely in The Batman then your circle of friends must be pretty close to the project.  The people who I know that work for DC Ent. on several different levels think there is no guarantee.  Then again... you could be one of their assistants or something.

----------


## nightbird

> That remains to be seen... I never said  he wasn't playing Deathstroke.  There are several other DC movies coming out before The Batman.   This all still strays from the main point of not making announcements until they are committed and ready.  The Batman won't be out by the time that they had hoped.  I already stated earlier how I know this.


Oh, c'mon. You can't expect them to sit with their mouths shut, if they have something important to announce (plus a lot of time all that news never really come directly from WB). That's not how movie industry works. And there always will be "a human factor" thing. All previously announced stuff supposed to happen, but then movies got trashed and DC/WB were forced to correct some stuff. Directors that they announced started working on pre-production, overview script writing and etc., but things happen. Some directors bite more than they can chew, some leave over conflictis or for more personal reasons.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Oh, c'mon. You can't expect them to sit with their mouths shut, if they have something important to announce (plus a lot of time all that news never really come directly from WB). That's not how movie industry works. And there always will be "a human factor" thing. All previously announced stuff supposed to happen, but then movies got trashed and DC/WB were forced to correct some stuff. Directors that they announced started working on pre-production, overview script writing and etc., but things happen. Some directors bite more than they can chew, some leave over conflictis or for more personal reasons.


You can expect them to wait until they have things ironed and committed.   Especially the closer you are to a desired release date. If you think the WB/DC is a well oiled machine at this point... well that is your right.   Things happen... but they sure seem to be happening to DC more often than with other big projects.  I do know how the industry works... the closer you are to a desired release date the more concrete decisions have to be made.  That is why studios interview directors to see how committed they are and to make sure there are no conflicts.  Especially now, WB would be smart not to announce release dates and directors until they were ready and most of all committed to the project.  If you think they've done a great job with their planning then that is a matter of opinion... and not one that even the biggest DC supporters would share.  Everyone needs to remember that a lot happens behind the scenes that never reaches social media... and that social media isn't the ultimate source of info that some think it is.

----------


## nightbird

> You can expect them to wait until they have things ironed and committed.   Especially the closer you are to a desired release date. If you think the WB/DC is a well oiled machine at this point... well that is your right.   Things happen... but they sure seem to be happening to DC more often than with other big projects.  I do know how the industry works... the closer you are to a desired release date the more concrete decisions have to be made.  That is why studios interview directors to see how committed they are and to make sure there are no conflicts.  Especially now, WB would be smart not to announce release dates and directors until they were ready and most of all committed to the project.  If you think they've done a great job with their planning then that is a matter of opinion... and not one that even the biggest DC supporters would share.  Everyone needs to remember that a lot happens behind the scenes that never reaches social media... and that social media isn't the ultimate source of info that some think it is.


Dude, find me a single sentence where I wrote something like "DC planned everything perfectly" and I will send you 20$. And I bet you can't, because I never said that nor implied it. What I really said there is no reason to shut WB/DC mouth. And I already wrote why, I don't want to repeat basically the same thing twice.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So apparently Patty said there were no deleted scenes in WW! So WB are learning from their mistakes! Awesome!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Dude, find me a single sentence where I wrote something like "DC planned everything perfectly" and I will send you 20$. And I bet you can't, because I never said that nor implied it. What I really said there is no reason to shut WB/DC mouth. And I already wrote why, I don't want to repeat basically the same thing twice.


There is a reason for them to stop.  It is making them look uncoordinated and silly because they already have a far from perfect track record.  I already addressed why as well.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on the point.

----------


## golgi

Pro Box office updated their long range prediction to 111 OW. It will probably go up in the next few days.

http://pro.box***********/long-range-...trip-valerian/

----------


## golgi

If Wonder Woman opens up to over 100 Million, that is the 4th DCEU movie to do so. Once JL hits, that will be the 5th. Impressive.

----------


## Bossace

I can't imagine JL not having a extended cut. I think it's awesome though they got to use everything in Wonder Woman

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I can't imagine JL not having a extended cut. I think it's awesome though they got to use everything in Wonder Woman


It also in probably indicative of a tighter script.

----------


## Pinsir

> I can't imagine JL not having a extended cut. I think it's awesome though they got to use everything in Wonder Woman


Did the first Avengers movie? Ultron did, but that was a much more bloated production.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Pro Box office updated their long range prediction to 111 OW. It will probably go up in the next few days.
> 
> http://pro.box***********/long-range-...trip-valerian/


WOW! 
I see their total domestic estimate is $300 million, that's enormously impressive and if that tracks correctly, means this movie should run past $600-$700 million. Assuming the foreign markets take to it, it could even push to $750-$800 million WW.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Cool Wonder Woman pop hits matchup.

https://www.facebook.com/Nerdist/vid...1669158850885/

----------


## manofsteel1979

All this good will towards the WW film makes me happy. Can't wait to see it next week!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Whoa can't believe it's been over 3 years since JJJ started this thread! Time really does fly, I still remember the announcement of BvS being delayed to 2016 and feeling crushed like yesterday aha and now here we are on the cusp of a freaking WW movie and JL not long after!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Whoa can't believe it's been over 3 years since JJJ started this thread! Time really does fly, I still remember the announcement of BvS being delayed to 2016 and feeling crushed like yesterday aha and now here we are on the cusp of a freaking WW movie and JL not long after!


I'm sure the time will fly by, but JL still seems so far away to me.  Especially when I think of it as, "the weekend before Thanksgiving" and this being Memorial Day weekend.

----------


## Triple J

Interview with Roven

It's about a week old, so apologies with someone had posted it.




> With WONDER WOMAN, DCEU appears to be taking a different approach. There are several small, wonderful moments. Is that in due in part to the critical hits you took on BVS and SUICIDE SQUAD?
> 
> Honestly, we started out with a very different character. As I’ve pointed out and maybe you’ve heard me say; for all my experience with the DCEU, WONDER WOMAN is the only superhero - and I’m including Batman even though he’s not really super - even in the Marvel canons or Dark Horse, I don’t know any superhero who has wanted to embrace their destiny so much. From the time that they were little kid, Diana knew, because her mother and her aunt and all the legacy, that she needed to be heroic and able to go out there. And her mission in life was going to be to protect people who couldn’t protect themselves. That already gave you a very different perspective to be working from in terms of telling an origination story that was different than anybody else’s. Also you are dealing with a character who is extremely compassionate and empathetic, it allows for the character to be that - someone who violence is the last resort, it’s not the first resort or the immediate response. That also allows you to go about doing things in a different kind of way. And as we were crafting the movie and it was certainly enhanced by Patty, which I didn’t know from her movies to be honest, that there is this amazing sense of humor. Did you know that?
> 
> Looking at this, and obviously the critics appear to be embracing it, will that play into how you will carry this into the future at all?
> 
> Well, you know, I know you might find this hard to believe but it’s really true, we haven’t really… You always muse when you are making a film, particularly where you know that everybody is going to be interested, including yourself, on making the next one. In the case of WONDER WOMAN, we did some additional photography on this and we were finishing that while we were shooting JUSTICE LEAGUE. So literally, there was a period of time where Gal was working on both movies at the same time. So you go, “what is the next one going to be and you go.” We can’t be thinking about what the next WONDER WOMAN will be because, are we going to do the intervening period between the end of this WONDER WOMAN and BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN, or are we going to do something that will pick up after JUSTICE LEAGUE. 
> 
> Somebody had an idea about that, and somebody had an idea about this… but we didn’t really spend any time because we just finished this movie maybe six weeks ago. We took all the time that they gave us. Because when you are doing these special effects movies, you can’t actually finish the technical aspects of the movie until your shots are locked. I can’t have my composer come in and actually lay the score down, because if the frame is off by one frame, it’s out of sync [Laughing]. So the technical aspects of making a movie like this don’t really allow you a lot of time, particularly if you do some additional photography and there is a fixed release date, and stuff like that. Listen, it’s a high class problem, but it’s still an issue so you are working so hard and then you’ve got publicity and all that stuff, you don’t really have a lot of time to sit around and talk story.
> ...


http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/excl...rles-roven-279

----------


## Triple J

> Whoa can't believe it's been over 3 years since JJJ started this thread! Time really does fly, I still remember the announcement of BvS being delayed to 2016 and feeling crushed like yesterday aha and now here we are on the cusp of a freaking WW movie and JL not long after!





> I'm sure the time will fly by, but JL still seems so far away to me.  Especially when I think of it as, "the weekend before Thanksgiving" and this being Memorial Day weekend.


Time does fly. Can't believe we are getting JL and WW in the same year  :Big Grin:

----------


## Punisher007

And Aquaman next year if I'm not mistaken.

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Lightning Rider

> 


Looking very blond there, I like it.

----------


## Punisher007

First meeting (in flashbacks) perhaps?

----------


## MadFacedKid

> Looking very blond there, I like it.


I don't know if I'm on something but I feel like the amount of blond changes here and there for Aquamoa. Not sure if it's them repetitively dying it and it not being so consistent.

I don't mind though when it looks more blond  creates more symmetry

----------


## Frontier

> 


I think that's the most blonde Momoa's looked since he was cast. 

Actually looks a lot like Aquaman's Stjepan Sejic's design.

----------


## The Kid

I hope Mamoa cuts his hair at some point. Him with short hair is super good looking

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Looking very blond there, I like it.


Dude her hair is clearly RED!  Just kidding...

----------


## Pinsir

So that youtube show that had one of their hosts claim that they had insider information claiming the Wonder Woman movie was 'a mess' pulled their Youtube video in which they make the claim. Can we throw away all those Justice League rumours in the trash now?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I hope Mamoa cuts his hair at some point. Him with short hair is super good looking


I could see a cool transition to a classic look with the short hair.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> I could see a cool transition to a classic look with the short hair.


My only complaint would be that Aquamoa would possibly lose a lot of the blond hair in favor for the dark brown if that were to happen.

I've been championing something like this though since the casting

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm sure the time will fly by, but JL still seems so far away to me.  Especially when I think of it as, "the weekend before Thanksgiving" and this being Memorial Day weekend.


Summer always seems to go by fast, so I am not particularity worried.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> So that youtube show that had one of their hosts claim that they had insider information claiming the Wonder Woman movie was 'a mess' pulled their Youtube video in which they make the claim. Can we throw away all those Justice League rumours in the trash now?


Did you read the interview where Jenkins was wondering where those rumors came from? She said the first time she heard them, she was wondering who saw the movie and what was messy about it. She went on to say that the movie was paced and well crafted from the beginning so she was really curious to hear who/why said it was a mess. 

And people still want to say there's not some trolling/conspiracy going on against the DCEU.

----------


## The Kid

> I could see a cool transition to a classic look with the short hair.


jason-momoa-20130129-hairstyles-191x300.jpg

Seriously! Give him some blonde highlights or whatever and call it a day

----------


## maxmcco

Mamoa looks so much hotter and bad ass with long hair.

----------


## The Kid

> Mamoa looks so much hotter and bad ass with long hair.


I'm not saying he looks bad with long hair but he captures Aquaman's rugged masculinity better with hair at most up to his shoulders imo.

----------


## Pinsir

> Did you read the interview where Jenkins was wondering where those rumors came from? She said the first time she heard them, she was wondering who saw the movie and what was messy about it. She went on to say that the movie was paced and well crafted from the beginning so she was really curious to hear who/why said it was a mess. 
> 
> And people still want to say there's not some trolling/conspiracy going on against the DCEU.


David Ayer defended SS ardently too, so at the time I didn't think much of it as an artist is going to defend their work. However, there has been so much bunk following this film such as the claim that WB was also softening their advertisement for WW seems to also been rebuked now as well; they were waiting for GotG to pass. 

I can't think of any other film in which 'insiders' speak out against their product. Were their leakers for Alien Covenant six months before that film released?

----------


## Selina

For those of you that are so scared because of the critical bias. I am glad to tell you that wonderwoman currently has an 86/100 on the critics choice website.

http://www.criticschoice.com/search/?s=wonder+woman

----------


## Outside_85

> I'm not saying he looks bad with long hair but he captures Aquaman's rugged masculinity better with hair at most up to his shoulders imo.


I am not betting on him cutting his hair anytime soon for the movies atleast. Since the Big Wigs have envisioned Aquaman as the Justice League's answer to Wolverine, so I imagine he will keep the wild look to contrast with the much more polished men of the League.

There was at one point when I compared the look to that of a surfer... but there is another comparison they could be going for and thats (basically): Undersea Viking. Like look at him, he's got the tats, the long hair, beard, he can hold his drink, and he so far appears to be happiest whenever theres a fight in the offering.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I am not betting on him cutting his hair anytime soon for the movies atleast. Since the Big Wigs have envisioned Aquaman as the Justice League's answer to Wolverine, so I imagine he will keep the wild look to contrast with the much more polished men of the League.
> 
> There was at one point when I compared the look to that of a surfer... but there is another comparison they could be going for and thats (basically): Undersea Viking. Like look at him, he's got the tats, the long hair, beard, he can hold his drink, and he so far appears to be happiest whenever theres a fight in the offering.


I can see why they'd try to Thor/Wolverine him up, but it doesn't mean he can't still look badass and a bit feral with short hair and a beard.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> jason-momoa-20130129-hairstyles-191x300.jpg
> 
> Seriously! Give him some blonde highlights or whatever and call it a day


I really hope so.

I don't want anything resembling the 90s Aquaman in an AQUAMAN film. I hope they just use that as his look while he's a bit lost and adrift. 

I want to move towards the classic Aquaman, just with a beard. I think Mamoa could 100% pull that off.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> I can see why they'd try to Thor/Wolverine him up, but it doesn't mean he can't still look badass and a bit feral with short hair and a beard.


Ironically though Wolverine classically gas a short haired look and Thor currently does to in both the comics and movies.

I think this could work cool

----------


## LordTrump

> I really hope so.
> 
> I don't want anything resembling the 90s Aquaman in an AQUAMAN film. I hope they just use that as his look while he's a bit lost and adrift. 
> 
> I want to move towards the classic Aquaman, just with a beard. I think Mamoa could 100% pull that off.


90s Aquaman is what we're getting.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> David Ayer defended SS ardently too, so at the time I didn't think much of it as an artist is going to defend their work. However, there has been so much bunk following this film such as the claim that WB was also softening their advertisement for WW seems to also been rebuked now as well; they were waiting for GotG to pass. 
> 
> I can't think of any other film in which 'insiders' speak out against their product. Were their leakers for Alien Covenant six months before that film released?


Funny thing you mention the marketing thing and there are people still NOW believe that WB aren't marketing the film... lmao. I swear you have to walk around with your eyes closed to think that! Every corner I turn I see something WW film related. It is absolutely stupid and frustrating the things people do when it comes to the DCEU, people were saying WW was gonna be crap because the embargo was lifting a day before release (which was false in itself as it 2 days before the domestic on 31st) but the fact that they seemingly ignored _every_ positive reaction from critics, bloggers media people etc. 

There are still some people pushing agenda's after the Snyder JL news. WW is not gonna change a thing come October time there will be loads of this crap for JL.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Next, we'll be seeing the haters and red side fanboys claiming Wonder Woman has to make $1.4 billion to break even. Their math is always so sound…

Anyway, there are a few threads pertaining to the Wonder Woman movie discussion, but I figure this one gets the most views. Does anyone know when the reviews will start coming through? As in, is there an exact time the embargo lifts today? I'm only going to read one or two spoiler free reviews, I honestly don't care, but I've grown to enjoy the analysis of DCEU movie reviews and their performance.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Time does fly. Can't believe we are getting JL and WW in the same year





> Next, we'll be seeing the haters and red side fanboys claiming Wonder Woman has to make $1.4 billion to break even. Their math is always so sound…
> 
> Anyway, there are a few threads pertaining to the Wonder Woman movie discussion, but I figure this one gets the most views. Does anyone know when the reviews will start coming through? As in, is there an exact time the embargo lifts today? I'm only going to read one or two spoiler free reviews, I honestly don't care, but I've grown to enjoy the analysis of DCEU movie reviews and their performance.


Later today. Not sure exactly when, but I wouldn't expect anything until at least tonight (assuming you're living in the US, of course. No idea how it works for the rest of the world.)

----------


## godisawesome

> 90s Aquaman is what we're getting.


The *better* looking Aquaman is what we're getting. I genuinely don't care for any fidelity to the blond-guy-in-an-orange-shirt look. It's so astoundingly bland that I'd even take the weird water camo outfit first. And I know skilled artists an make that look good, but it's still just an uninteresting design in my opinion. And I kind of tie favoritism to that look to the constant redundant speeches about how Aquaman doesn't suck. I don't need them; I'm a 90's kid, so Aquaman always visually expressed his badass, and Justice League pretty much proved that look compliments a restrained badass portrayal where I don't have to hear people constantly vocalizing arguments that I never took seriously in the first place.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Later today. Not sure exactly when, but I wouldn't expect anything until at least tonight (assuming you're living in the US, of course. No idea how it works for the rest of the world.)


Great, thanks!

----------


## vasir12

> Next, we'll be seeing the haters and red side fanboys claiming Wonder Woman has to make $1.4 billion to break even. Their math is always so sound…
> 
> Anyway, there are a few threads pertaining to the Wonder Woman movie discussion, but I figure this one gets the most views. Does anyone know when the reviews will start coming through? As in, is there an exact time the embargo lifts today? I'm only going to read one or two spoiler free reviews, I honestly don't care, but I've grown to enjoy the analysis of DCEU movie reviews and their performance.


Rreddit tells me 9pm pst Monday/12am Est Tuesday

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Rreddit tells me 9pm pst Monday/12am Est Tuesday


That matches what this report says from Forbes. About 14 hours he said when the article was posted at 10 AM this morning. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme...nsformers/amp/

----------


## Frontier

> The *better* looking Aquaman is what we're getting. I genuinely don't care for any fidelity to the blond-guy-in-an-orange-shirt look. It's so astoundingly bland that I'd even take the weird water camo outfit first. And I know skilled artists an make that look good, but it's still just an uninteresting design in my opinion. And I kind of tie favoritism to that look to the constant redundant speeches about how Aquaman doesn't suck. I don't need them; I'm a 90's kid, so Aquaman always visually expressed his badass, and Justice League pretty much proved that look compliments a restrained badass portrayal where I don't have to hear people constantly vocalizing arguments that I never took seriously in the first place.


I always thought the classic look lent itself to Arthur looking very refined and regal, especially with the chainmail, which is what I've always seen Aquaman as, and was a strong image next to Mera, his Queen. 

But the main Aquaman I got into was the New 52 Aquaman, so that version, like 90's Aquaman for you, was what dispelled me of all the common complaints about the character. So I do have more of a fondness for that version.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> For those of you that are so scared because of the critical bias. I am glad to tell you that wonderwoman currently has an 86/100 on the critics choice website.
> 
> http://www.criticschoice.com/search/?s=wonder+woman


It's says 90 seems it's gone up. 

Still dunno how that sites works.

----------


## Triple J



----------


## Lightning Rider

Definitely getting my hands on some of those.

----------


## FishyZombie



----------


## FishyZombie



----------


## Vanguard-01

HUGE praise from Grace Randolph!  :Smile:

----------


## Pinsir

We did it! We did it! Go Go DC!  :Smile:

----------


## Robotman

> HUGE praise from Grace Randolph!


Wow. Better than the Dark Knight in her eyes. I have to stop myself from getting so hyped that it's in any way a let down. Still very much looking forward to Wonder Woman.

----------


## Punisher007

Grace review isn't surprising.  She tweeted out right after seeing the screening about how much she loved it.  And she brought up again before she did her _Game of Thrones_ trailer reaction video as well.

----------


## Agent Z

Do any of these reviews say how the movie handles WW1?

----------


## The Kid

Grace has historically been a major mixed bag with me but my movie reviews have often been very close to the Stuck Man and a few other reviewers and they have all praised this so I'm very optimistic watching this weekend

----------


## Robotman

Just bought my tickets! Very excited!

----------


## darkseidpwns

But there is a conspiracy among critics and fans to kill the DCEU, how can WW get good reviews? nah how the hell can it get great reviews? could it be that critics and fans just have a bias against poor movies? Which is exactly what BvS was.

Good news for DCEU and female led films in general, this is going to be a huge confidence booster.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Slow down, Marvel! DC has not yet begun to fight! 

And it's WONDER WOMAN: not Superman, not the vaunted Batgod, who's rallying the troops and leading the charge! I swear, I never thought I'd live to see this day!  :Big Grin: 

346.jpg

----------


## Agent Z

> But there is a conspiracy among critics and fans to kill the DCEU, how can WW get good reviews? nah how the hell can it get great reviews? could it be that critics and fans just have a bias against poor movies?(like any sane person would) which is exactly what BvS was.
> 
> Good news for DCEU and female led films in general, this is going to be a huge confidence booster.


Or maybe people have different ideas on what makes poor movies. And given how many people's opinions on the DCEU seem coloured by how it isn't like Marvel or even past films like the Reeves movies, the accusations of bias aren't that off. Hell just look at all the rumour and innuendo this movie dealt with before release

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Or maybe people have different ideas on what makes poor movies. And given how many people's opinions on the DCEU seem coloured by how it isn't like Marvel or even past films like the Reeves movies, the accusations of bias aren't that off. Hell just look at all the rumour and innuendo this movie dealt with before release


Those different ideas apparently only come in to the light when DCEU movies were involved, nobody wastes their breath praising Transformers no matter how much they enjoyed those movies.

and yet those same critics loved the Nolan films and Logan and Days of the Future Past so your assertion does not hold. 

BECAUSE of the previous bad films. Had those been good no one would have voiced skepticism or atleast not to the level it got.

But I digress, I'm not a big WW buff, I know you are, just go out and celebrate and be happy.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Slow down, Marvel! DC has not yet begun to fight! 
> 
> And it's WONDER WOMAN: not Superman, not the vaunted Batgod, who's rallying the troops and leading the charge! I swear, I never thought I'd live to see this day! 
> 
> 346.jpg


This isn't Marvel vs DC, there are people who're fans of both companies and besides its WB and Disney that make these films.

----------


## Agent Z

> Those different ideas apparently only come in to the light when DCEU movies were involved, nobody wastes their breath praising Transformers no matter how much they enjoyed those movies.
> 
> and yet those same critics loved the Nolan films and Logan and Days of the Future Past so your assertion does not hold. 
> 
> BECAUSE of the previous bad films. Had those been good no one would have voiced skepticism or atleast not to the level it got.
> 
> But I digress, I'm not a big WW buff, I know you are, just go out and celebrate and be happy.


So people aren't allowed to defend movies they like?

I actually have seen those same critics give negative reviews to those films. I've even seen them flat out get things wrong that were blatantly clear in the film.

There's skepticism and then there's being willing to swallow up any bit of bad news when there is zero evidence to back it up and after those rumours were repeatedly disproven.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This isn't Marvel vs DC, there are people who're fans of both companies and besides its WB and Disney that make these films.


I'm a fan of both companies too. Well, both company's movies anyway. Marvel drove me away from their comics years ago. Haven't been back since. 

And it's because I'm a fan of both company's cinematic universes that I said what I said. DC finally stepping up into genuine competition with Marvel is ultimately good for both company's. Competition is healthy, after all.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I'm a fan of both companies too. Well, both company's movies anyway. Marvel drove me away from their comics years ago. Haven't been back since. 
> 
> And it's because I'm a fan of both company's cinematic universes that I said what I said. DC finally stepping up into genuine competition with Marvel is ultimately good for both company's. Competition is healthy, after all.


Well for what its worth Marvel (comics) have driven me away as well.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So people aren't allowed to defend movies they like?
> 
> I actually have seen those same critics give negative reviews to those films. I've even seen them flat out get things wrong that were blatantly clear in the film.
> 
> There's skepticism and then there's being willing to swallow up any bit of bad news when there is zero evidence to back it up and after those rumours were repeatedly disproven.


Sure they are but many DCEU fans became as biased as those so called biased critics. This self generated perception of victim hood and conspiracy theories is grating to say the least. Take Batman News, they refused to report the Razzie noms but reported the Oscar win for SS. That's biased reporting at its finest.

And I'm not denying that there are a few hipsters who like to think they're special, those guys are everywhere.

That's WB's fault, Affleck's statements imo did more damage to the Batman film in my eyes than him actually getting replaced by Reeves. Its their own mess, hopefully they cleaned it up.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Times Square:

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> Slow down, Marvel! DC has not yet begun to fight! 
> 
> And it's WONDER WOMAN: not Superman, not the vaunted Batgod, who's rallying the troops and leading the charge! I swear, I never thought I'd live to see this day! 
> 
> 346.jpg


Helps that DC has an actual superheroine that is not a derivative of a male hero.

----------


## Blackest Knight

> 


Where do I buy these, please?!  :EEK!:

----------


## Blackest Knight

A picture is worth a thousand words...

RT scores for all DCEU films.jpg

----------


## The Kid

> But there is a conspiracy among critics and fans to kill the DCEU, how can WW get good reviews? nah how the hell can it get great reviews? could it be that critics and fans just have a bias against poor movies?(like any sane person would) which is exactly what BvS was.
> 
> Good news for DCEU and female led films in general, this is going to be a huge confidence booster.


Agree with you 100%

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

The only review that matters to me is mine when I see on Thursday morning.

----------


## Steven Kaye

Great to see all these glowing reviews! Of course, I don't buy into all this "finally, the DCEU has come out with a good movie!" BS, considering how much I loved Man of Steel, but it's still heartening to see a DC movie get such a positive response.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Great to see all these glowing reviews! Of course, I don't buy into all this "finally, the DCEU has come out with a good movie!" BS, considering how much I loved Man of Steel, but it's still heartening to see a DC movie get such a positive response.


I agree with all of this. All good news for DCEU fans.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Great to see all these glowing reviews! Of course, I don't buy into all this "finally, the DCEU has come out with a good movie!" BS, considering how much I loved Man of Steel, but it's still heartening to see a DC movie get such a positive response.


Agreed. 

Man of Steel is a great movie, in my eyes. BvS was good, but I saw its flaws. And Suicide Squad was just a fun time for me, I'll leave that one there. 
I was seeing this movie regardless of whether it sat at 96% on RT or 16%. These critics have deemed their own importance level too high. It's sad that they can impact sales and fans minds to the extent they do. That's why I'm only going to read 1-2 reviews and not anymore than that. Because honestly, I don't care. It's just nice to sit back finally and see one of my beloved DC characters (after three attempts) be critically successful that isn't Batman. 

I already bought my tickets (taking family) for this weekend and might buy another one just for me for the second weekend like I did with BvS, if I like this movie enough.

----------


## Punisher007

I like MOS as well (the other two less so).  But I won't deny that its a divisive movie.  It wasn't panned, but opinion on it was split almost right now the middle.

That seems to be the distinction between it and this one (at least so far).

----------


## Wandering_Wand

So, awhile back I posted a comment that had to do with me vaguely remembering an article I read that basically stated there are ulterior motives from time to time with critics (some of them act like gods). I think I found the article I was referencing because I remember it was on Forbes and there are two guys who I follow (and you should too if you're interested in box office analysis): Scott Mendelson and Mark Hughes. They're both very professional, write for a reliable site, and have insight into the industry.

Here's some snippets from Mark's article that I'm pretty sure now was the one I read a long time ago and I know one poster asked for the link. Trust me, I've been looking for it ever since and am pretty sure this is the one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#567c66e97aaf

Regarding box office rumors that always swirl DCEU movies, in particular, Suicide Squad: 




> Well, first of all I can tell you that these $800 million "break-even point" claims floating around are false. The film needs to do about $600 million in global ticket sales to cover the shooting budget (including reshoots) plus marketing costs, since the studio will only get about half of the box office receipts to cover the combined costs that total roughly $300 million. Claims in the press of marketing exceeding $150-200 million are gross exaggerations, as are rumors of costly reshoots that pushed the filming budget closer toward the $200 million range…


Regarding claims of ulterior motives that DO pop up with film critics: 




> Suicide Squad is falling victim to this typical press scenario not only because of the all the usual factors coming into play against it, but also because of a sort of inertia that overtakes the press once a line of thought has been established. "Gore the exaggerator," the first U.S.-Iraq war when the media acted largely as cheerleaders for the White House, the McMartin Preschool abuse story and surrounding media hysteria, and many other examples exist of the press jumping onto hyperbolic or outright false bandwagon sentiments and hyping them for attention in order to attract viewers and increase revenue. It's not just common, it's a consistent aspect of modern mass media. There are entire press outlets dedicated to the pursuit of tabloid journalism, rumormongering, gossip, and muckraking.
> 
> Nobody informed about the press (note: I've worked as a political journalist, op-ed writer, news reporter, news program producer, and entertainment writer in print, radio, and online for many different outlets -- including national and worldwide -- on and off since the early 1990s) would seriously argue this isn't generally true, even if they might debate how widespread it tends to be. The point being, it not only happens but happens frequently enough we can point to multiple occurrences of major historic import within any several-year period. And it happens in less historic, more mundane ways on a far more frequent basis.
> 
> So it would be absurd and dishonest for anyone to pretend it doesn't happen in entertainment journalism. If news correspondents in a war zone can allow relationships, trade-offs, personal gain, bias against individuals or organizations, laziness, and various other factors to heavily influence their coverage, then yes certain movie reviewers or film bloggers or comic book fan sites can sometimes have less than 100% pure motivations when they put words to page.
> 
> I will strenuously defend the press and film reviewers against hyperbolic accusations and false, uninformed claims of widespread payoffs and bribery, and I consistently tell my readers and fans on social media to stop silly claims of conspiracies against their favorite films. And I will forever defend the right of film critics to express their opinions whether or not readers happen to aggree with the writer's personal subjective assessment of art.
> 
> But I will just as strongly disagree with any members of the press who try to pretend ulterior motives or bad behavior sway some people's writing sometimes, or who deny that there isn't a demonstrable tendency of established narratives about a production or project or star to be perpetuated by outlets and reporters. This isn't to say it can't change, that people don't resist it, or that it is the dominant truth of entertainment journalism, but it's there and it's not just a few "bad apples" or rare occurrences. And let's face it, everybody knows it and can see it, so when the media tries too hard to deny it or make excuses for it, it merely enhances the perception that the press can't be trusted to be honest about itself.
> ...


And for fun, some box office analysis from Mark between the MCU and DCEU: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#2b7479983988

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I like MOS as well (the other two less so).  But I won't deny that its a divisive movie.  It wasn't panned, but opinion on it was split almost right now the middle.
> 
> That seems to be the distinction between it and this one (at least so far).


The first two DCEU films were all about the tone. Whatever other issues they had, if the tone had been more MCU-like, the reviews would have been far, far better. I know some will disagree, but they, of course, are wrong.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Mister Ferro

> What are you even doing? I wish to God you were forced to live out of a car until you made a #1 movie of the year. *Maybe Wonder Woman wouldn't be such a mess. Don't try to hide behind the great trailer. People inside are already confirming it's another mess.* It is almost impressive how you keep rewarding the same producers and executives for making the same mistakes, over and over


*#NeverForget #RIP*

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> The first two DCEU films were all about the tone. Whatever other issues they had, if the tone had been more MCU-like, the reviews would have been far, far better. I know some will disagree, but they, of course, are wrong.


It was stated by multiple reviewers that BvS's color and tone made everything dreary and depressing. Many of them thought the film was too gritty and took itself too seriously, something I heard parroted by people in public a few times when BvS was in theaters. So, I agree with your premise that many reviewers and fans now use the MCU as a base for them to conduct these movie reviews now. Remember, The Dark Knight in 2008 didn't have the MCU to compare to. Regardless, it probably would have still reviewed high because it's one of the best CBM/hero movies ever. But, you get my point.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It was stated by multiple reviewers that BvS's color and tone made everything dreary and depressing. Many of them thought the film was too gritty and took itself too seriously, something I heard parroted by people in public a few times when BvS was in theaters. So, I agree with your premise that many reviewers and fans now use the MCU as a base for them to conduct these movie reviews now. Remember, The Dark Knight in 2008 didn't have the MCU to compare to. Regardless, it probably would have still reviewed high because it's one of the best CBM/hero movies ever. But, you get my point.


Batman is a different animal, anyway, so he can get away with the more gritty approach with the reviewers than with many of the other superheroes.

----------


## Punisher007

Except that most of the X-Men films have been well-received critically, and most of them have darker/more serious tones as well (or in Deadpool's case, an uber-violent and psychotic black sense of humor that wouldn't be to everyone's tastes).

The Marvel Netflix stuff, _Iron Fist_ excluded, has also been praised despite darker/more gritty tones.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Slow down, Marvel! DC has not yet begun to fight! 
> 
> And it's WONDER WOMAN: not Superman, not the vaunted Batgod, who's rallying the troops and leading the charge! I swear, I never thought I'd live to see this day! 
> 
> Attachment 50024


Is this from an alternate ending of Man of Steel where Diana steps in and defeats the Kryptonians, takes down the world engines and ends Batman v Superman before it begins?  Damn, why couldn't that be the movie I saw?



> A picture is worth a thousand words...
> 
> Attachment 50026


That's amazing!  And also sad because Snyder takes the blame. He's good with Batman (or was that the Punisher? Doesn't really matter) but it's his take on Superman that I think hurt him.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Except that most of the X-Men films have been well-received critically, and most of them have darker/more serious tones as well (or in Deadpool's case, an uber-violent and psychotic black sense of humor that wouldn't be to everyone's tastes).
> 
> The Marvel Netflix stuff, _Iron Fist_ excluded, has also been praised despite darker/more gritty tones.


How many critics back then even knew who the X-Men were, though? They didn't have the same emotional baggage that Superman has. If the Spider-Man films, however, had followed that script, they would have been ripped apart.

----------


## Rogue Star

> The first two DCEU films were all about the tone. Whatever other issues they had, if the tone had been more MCU-like, the reviews would have been far, far better. I know some will disagree, but they, of course, are wrong.


I don't think any amount of levity or tone lightening is going to make Pa Kent suggesting that MAYBE Clark should have let a bus full of (correction: teenagers) die or seeing thousands of people brutally pulverized by gigantic terraformers go over any better. >.>

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I hope people aren't gonna begin to say this is DC course correcting I haven't seen WW before obviously but it was shooting well before BvS cane out which means story, script etc was done well in advance. 

I loved BvS and MoS so I couldn't care less whether it was universally praised or not and I'm similarly gonna have that attitude to WW and if I don't like it I don't like it oh well. 

Btw I wonder how many of these DCEU fans out there are gonna start bragging about WW RT score if it's good while the past year saying how RT sucks?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't think any amount of levity or tone lightening is going to make Pa Kent suggesting that MAYBE Clark should have let a bus full of (correction: teenagers) die or seeing thousands of people brutally pulverized by gigantic terraformers go over any better. >.>


That's all tone, though. If you don't like a superhero world where parents of an alien child are understandably apprehensive about their son being discovered as such, that's going to color your whole take on the film.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I hope people aren't gonna begin to say this is DC course correcting


Of course they will. That's a given.




> Btw I wonder how many of these DCEU fans out there are gonna start bragging about WW RT score if it's good while the past year saying how RT sucks?


While I hope that's not the case, that also will be a given.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I hope people aren't gonna begin to say this is DC course correcting I haven't seen WW before obviously but it was shooting well before BvS cane out which means story, script etc was done well in advance. 
> 
> I loved BvS and MoS so I couldn't care less whether it was universally praised or not and I'm similarly gonna have that attitude to WW and if I don't like it I don't like it oh well. 
> 
> Btw I wonder how many of these DCEU fans out there are gonna start bragging about WW RT score if it's good while the past year saying how RT sucks?


One of the problems now is for those seeing this as a "course correction" (as most of the critics are insisting), Justice League MUST deliver critically or it will be the nail in the coffin for Snyder and this universe he basically built. Because there is now proof that a movie in the DCEU can charm critics. 

And yea, there will be people bragging about RT now and the other side whose been saying RT matters, will be saying it won't now, etc. It's all a silly game. I'm happy it's reviewed well, but it shouldn't matter.

----------


## Triple J

> But there is a conspiracy among critics and fans to kill the DCEU, how can WW get good reviews? nah how the hell can it get great reviews? could it be that critics and fans just have a bias against poor movies? Which is exactly what BvS was.
> 
> Good news for DCEU and female led films in general, this is going to be a huge confidence booster.


There is no conspiracy, but it's certainly not as simple as "all bad movies getting reviewed poorly". That would suggest critics are infallible, which they aren't. 

You know what irks me the most? When some of these critics insult comic books in general (subtly), as if one can't tell mature stories with people in their tights.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There is no conspiracy, but it's certainly not as simple as "all bad movies getting reviewed poorly". That would suggest critics are infallible, which they aren't.


That's demonstrably correct, too. There are many films viewed favorably now that weren't when they originally came out because they were ahead of their times.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Btw I wonder how many of these DCEU fans out there are gonna start bragging about WW RT score if it's good while the past year saying how RT sucks?


Too many too count.




> One of the problems now is for those seeing this as a "course correction" (as most of the critics are insisting), Justice League MUST deliver critically or it will be the nail in the coffin for Snyder and this universe he basically built. Because there is now proof that a movie in the DCEU can charm critics.


Wonder Woman isn't a course correction.  The same can't be said for Justice League.  I know that they said, "This is all part of the plan" but I don't buy that.  Johns' new job was created so that someone else other than Snyder would not be in the driver's seat for the DCEU.  Thanks to Wonder Woman if JL doesn't deliver critically WB/DC won't panic.  It won't be the  end of the DCEU but it will likely be the end for Snyder... at least on Justice League.  While there was pressure on Wonder Woman there is WAY more pressure on JL.  Wonder Woman's success may actually put more pressure.

----------


## Selina

we dc fans never said critics were paid money to bash the dceu, what we said was that the critics go too easy on mcu movies.

for example if WW is getting highly praised, it must be a near masterpiece. if the film was just average to mediocre like iron man 2, hulk,  thor 3 or x-men apocalypse it would have been trashed by critics.

the decu cant get a fresh score on rt based on an average movie. the mcu can. this is the bias we are talking about that is real.

its simple maths. if man of steel is a rotten than thor 2 and iron man 2 should be rotten also.

----------


## Agent Z

> Too many too count.
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder Woman isn't a course correction.  The same can't be said for Justice League.  I know that they said, "This is all part of the plan" but I don't buy that.  Johns' new job was created so that someone else other than Snyder would not be in the driver's seat for the DCEU.  Thanks to Wonder Woman if JL doesn't deliver critically WB/DC won't panic.  It won't be the  end of the DCEU but it will likely be the end for Snyder... at least on Justice League.  *While there was pressure on Wonder Woman there is WAY more pressure on JL.*  Wonder Woman's success may actually put more pressure.


Really? We're talking about the first female led superhero film since Elektra (and we all know how Hollywood has felt about superhero movies starring women), starring a relatively unknown actress, a directed by someone who hasn't been in the public eye for more than ten years.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

I personally feel very sorry for Zach Snyder and what he is going through. That said, I think he is done directing in the DCEU - he will likely continue to get producer credits, but I think the first reactions to whatever he put together for JL were not good and some unfortunate events provided an excuse to show him the door. IMHO this is Johns, Whedon and Jenkins's universe now

----------


## Rogue Star

> That's all tone, though. If you don't like a superhero world where parents of an alien child are understandably apprehensive about their son being discovered as such, that's going to color your whole take on the film.


What you described was fine. The way the conflict was executed in the movie was not okay with me. But then, I don't think they meant to do it right. Pa Kent by design was extremely cynical and pessimistic, not one I'd look up to as the role model they made him out to be. And instead of proving this dark view of humanity wrong, they only reinforce it throughout the movie. As if we somehow needed a messiah in Superman to save our souls. 

But that's just my opinion. When making points about Man of Steel being divisive we often forget that many people who dislike the movie are parents who took their children to see a Superman different, and maybe a lot more frightening to children, than they expected and wanted. So yeah, while on one hand we can call the movie great for the dark territory that it ventured into and be miffed at the poor critical response, on the other hand it's no wonder (woman) the movie is also called garbage by many others for the exact same reason.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I personally feel very sorry for Zach Snyder and what he is going through. That said, I think he is done directing in the DCEU - he will likely continue to get producer credits, but I think the first reactions to whatever he put together for JL were not good and some unfortunate events provided an excuse to show him the door. IMHO this is Johns, Whedon and Jenkins's universe now


I just hope Whedon doesn't chose to disregard the character development that happens in movies outside of his own the way he did in Age of Ultron. Him acting like Iron Man 3 and The Winter Soldier didn't happen was very upsetting.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> What you described was fine. The way the conflict was executed in the movie was not okay with me. But then, I don't think they meant to do it right. Pa Kent by design was extremely cynical and pessimistic, not one I'd look up to as the role model they made him out to be. And instead of proving this dark view of humanity wrong, they only reinforce it throughout the movie. As if we somehow needed a messiah in Superman to save our souls. 
> 
> But that's just my opinion. When making points about Man of Steel being divisive we often forget that many people who dislike the movie are parents who took their children to see a Superman different, and maybe a lot more frightening to children, than they expected and wanted. So yeah, while on one hand we can call the movie great for the dark territory that it ventured into and be miffed at the poor critical response, on the other hand it's no wonder (woman) the movie is also called garbage by many others for the exact same reason.


I agree some people's expectations were different in regard to the previous DCEU films' outlook. In fact, maybe it's more expectations than tone that has hurt them critically. I just don't think, IMO, it's a quality problem.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I personally feel very sorry for Zach Snyder and what he is going through. That said, I think he is done directing in the DCEU - he will likely continue to get producer credits, but I think the first reactions to whatever he put together for JL were not good and some unfortunate events provided an excuse to show him the door. IMHO this is Johns, Whedon and Jenkins's universe now


WB said they extended his first look deal and he's free to work on other DCEU films when he gets back so it looks like it is up to Snyder if he wants to continue working in the DCEU post JL.

Also Whedon is doing Batgirl so doesn't seem he's doing anything that big for them anyway, it's definitely still Snyder's universe and will be for a long time.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't think any amount of levity or tone lightening is going to make Pa Kent suggesting that MAYBE Clark should have let a bus full of (correction: teenagers) die or seeing thousands of people brutally pulverized by gigantic terraformers go over any better. >.>


1.) That "Maybe" couldn't possibly have been more insincere. It was blindingly obvious that he didn't really mean that. He was a father in a moment of doubt who briefly thought his son's safety was more important than the safety of other kids. That's just being human. We ALL prioritize our own loved ones over total strangers. 

2.) If he was half as cynical and pessimistic as you make him out to be, he wouldn't have gone running TOWARD a tornado in order to save a dog. He wouldn't have prioritized getting other people to safety over his own safety. He was the kind of man who put himself in harm's way for the benefit of others, and clearly he passed that on to Clark as well. 

3.) Oh, yes. Tone can absolutely change a horrific scene. Evidence? The Avengers. We watched alien spacecraft strafing one of the most densely populated cities on the face of the Earth. We saw cars being blown up all up and down the streets, with civilians all around them (and likely in them.) We saw buildings collapse. And THEN? We saw Tony Stark and the Avengers laughing about shawarma, despite the fact that you could easily ascertain that there were very likely dozens if not hundreds of innocent people burning to death, bleeding out, and/or suffocating under tons of debris mere feet from where they were standing and laughing. 

One movie is lauded as a masterpiece. One is condemned for treating mass destruction and death with the seriousness it deserves. Tone is everything.




> I hope people aren't gonna begin to say this is DC course correcting I haven't seen WW before obviously but it was shooting well before BvS cane out which means story, script etc was done well in advance. 
> 
> I loved BvS and MoS so I couldn't care less whether it was universally praised or not and I'm similarly gonna have that attitude to WW and if I don't like it I don't like it oh well. 
> 
> Btw I wonder how many of these DCEU fans out there are gonna start bragging about WW RT score if it's good while the past year saying how RT sucks?


My only pride about the RT score is the fact that, for better or worse, lots of people put a lot of stock in RT's influence. Good RT Score? Excellent chance of big sales and less online bickering for the next three years. 

I still don't think it's a good thing that RT has this much influence over people's opinions, but it is what it is.

----------


## Rogue Star

> 1.) That "Maybe" couldn't possibly have been more insincere. It was blindingly obvious that he didn't really mean that. He was a father in a moment of doubt who briefly thought his son's safety was more important than the safety of other kids. That's just being human. We ALL prioritize our own loved ones over total strangers. 
> 
> 2.) If he was half as cynical and pessimistic as you make him out to be, he wouldn't have gone running TOWARD a tornado in order to save a dog. He wouldn't have prioritized getting other people to safety over his own safety. He was the kind of man who put himself in harm's way for the benefit of others, and clearly he passed that on to Clark as well. 
> 
> 3.) Oh, yes. Tone can absolutely change a horrific scene. Evidence? The Avengers. We watched alien spacecraft strafing one of the most densely populated cities on the face of the Earth. We saw cars being blown up all up and down the streets, with civilians all around them (and likely in them.) We saw buildings collapse. And THEN? We saw Tony Stark and the Avengers laughing about shawarma, despite the fact that you could easily ascertain that there were very likely dozens if not hundreds of innocent people burning to death, bleeding out, and/or suffocating under tons of debris mere feet from where they were standing and laughing. 
> 
> One movie is lauded as a masterpiece. One is condemned for treating mass destruction and death with the seriousness it deserves. Tone is everything.
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree with all points made but since we've been down this road many times before with Man of Steel I won't push the issue any further.

----------


## manofsteel1979

As far as RT, the only opinion  that matters is mine. Yeah, it's nice to see a DCEU movie do well critically, but it ultimately means nothing for me personally. 

What I'm actually looking out for is the extreme DCEU haters and the hard line Marvel fanboys who have spent the last four years shoving the RT scores in the faces of those who don't share the opinion that the DCEU is a dumpster fire that needs to be completely abandoned will suddenly start downplaying the positive  score for this Movie as being in anyway significant. I mean , RT is the Bible when it comes to a movie's objective quality and box office success,right? Even if a film nearly makes a billion dollars and the DVD sales are really strong, if it has a less then fresh rating it's a collosal falure that no one should even admit they like.

. If the RT score is the sole determiner on the subjective success of a movie, then these same people should laud WW as an undisputed masterpiece and give credit to Snyder for his role in the production of the film and acknowledge that the DCEU is far from a lost cause.. I suspect said contingent though will still find a way to turn it into a negative and only reinforce "the DCEU sux/ Man of Muhrdurr/Zack Snyder raped and beat my childhood / Marvel way is the only way " views they hold.

I'm looking forward to see how all that works out.

----------


## Bossace

I hope DC learns from this movie and makes notes for all their upcoming movies. I hope they see how successful this was and why. I hope this is a turning point for the DCEU and not a tent pole or bright flash before it burns out again. WW is a great start to turn this around but now they need to make sure they continue to bring out movies with the same heart that was put into this movie. I'd hate to see the rest of the othe rmvoies tumble the way the rest of the DCEU has. Hopefully WW is the wake up call DC needed.

Now DC needs people to show up to this movie and keep showing up to seal the deal on WW

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I hope DC learns from this movie and makes notes for all their upcoming movies. I hope they see how successful this was and why. I hope this is a turning point for the DCEU and not a tent pole or bright flash before it burns out again. WW is a great start to turn this around but now they need to make sure they continue to bring out movies with the same heart that was put into this movie. I'd hate to see the rest of the othe rmvoies tumble the way the rest of the DCEU has. Hopefully WW is the wake up call DC needed.
> 
> Now DC needs people to show up to this movie and keep showing up to seal the deal on WW


I don't see how they COULDN'T get the message. It's a night-and-day difference here. People who skewered MOS, BvS, and Suicide Squad are lauding this as one of the best movies they've ever seen. 

There's no way WB is going to look at this and go "Okay! That worked great this time! Now? Back to the original formula!" 

One thing I hoped they learned? More Geoff Johns and Allen Heinberg writing DCEU scripts, please! Clearly, this is some of their finest work.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I personally feel very sorry for Zach Snyder and what he is going through. That said, I think he is done directing in the DCEU - he will likely continue to get producer credits, but I think the first reactions to whatever he put together for JL were not good and some unfortunate events provided an excuse to show him the door. IMHO this is Johns, Whedon and Jenkins's universe now


There were no negative reactions.  Whedon is adding some small scenes to bridge together what Snyder has already done.  He is not changing the tone of the movie and there aren't any major reshoots.  Just the standard stuff.  After BvS this became Johns universe.  His fingerprints are on every DC movie  now.  I think that is a good thing.  Zach Snyder's name is actually hurting the DCEU because some people just don't like him.  It would be smart to have another name guiding the DCEU.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I think the main lessons that should be learned​ are...

1) every film doesn't require 3 hours of run time and a 200 million plus budget. 

2) Don't micromanage things to death. Let your creative people create. Both BvS and SS  suffered from the studio mandated cuts ( BvS)and reshoots (SS) .

----------


## AcesX1X

wow i certainly must say this response on rotten tomatoe is a very nice surprise.  i am so happy for the whole wonder woman team.  and now i cant wait till next monday night when i can see it for myself.  i am not going to read any reviews because i don't want to be spoiled

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> wow i certainly must say this response on rotten tomatoe is a very nice surprise.  i am so happy for the whole wonder woman team.  and now i cant wait till next monday night when i can see it for myself.  i am not going to read any reviews because i don't want to be spoiled


I know that all reviews aren't it yet, but I expected early to mid 80's percentage wise.  I did NOT expect 96%!!!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I don't see how they COULDN'T get the message. It's a night-and-day difference here. People who skewered MOS, BvS, and Suicide Squad are lauding this as one of the best movies they've ever seen. 
> 
> There's no way WB is going to look at this and go "Okay! That worked great this time! Now? Back to the original formula!" 
> 
> One thing I hoped they learned? More Geoff Johns and Allen Heinberg writing DCEU scripts, please! Clearly, this is some of their finest work.


Even if JL underperforms (It really needs to hit the ground running opening weekend) I think Aquaman will be a hit.  Wan is a good director and has good track record with his movies having success.  Geoff Johns guiding all the projects is a good thing.  As is the stable of directors that they currently seem to adding to the roster.

----------


## AcesX1X

> I know that all reviews aren't it yet, but I expected early to mid 80's percentage wise.  I did NOT expect 96%!!!


yes indeed.  

and a very special congratulations to patty and gal and all the rest.  heroic hollywood has just published news that wonder woman has shattered the record of every dceu and marvel movie ever made.

http://heroichollywood.com/wonder-wo...tten-tomatoes/

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> yes indeed.  
> 
> and a very special congratulations to patty and gal and all the rest.  heroic hollywood has just published news that wonder woman has shattered the record of every dceu and marvel movie ever made.
> 
> http://heroichollywood.com/wonder-wo...tten-tomatoes/


It's really *wonder*ful, isn't it?  :Smile:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't think any amount of levity or tone lightening is going to make Pa Kent suggesting that MAYBE Clark should have let a bus full of (correction: teenagers) die or seeing thousands of people brutally pulverized by gigantic terraformers go over any better. >.>


Sure it is, just pretend nobody is suffering from the urban destruction until 10 movies in.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> WB said they extended his first look deal and he's free to work on other DCEU films when he gets back so it looks like it is up to Snyder if he wants to continue working in the DCEU post JL.
> 
> Also Whedon is doing Batgirl so doesn't seem he's doing anything that big for them anyway, it's definitely still Snyder's universe and will be for a long time.


Oh, I know. I also know that movie studios say things that stretch the truth all of the time. It does them no good to make Snyder look bad - right now there are personal sensitivities, JL will still have his fingerprints all over it, and this was the guy that they chose to launch the DCEU. I'll stand by what I said: Snyder will not direct another DCEU movie no matter the reasons they give for it

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Sure it is, just pretend nobody is suffering from the urban destruction until 10 movies in.


Good point, although,I still maintain MOS Should have had a short scene between the death of Zod and the drone scene of Supes helping dig out Metropolis . Yeah, we know he likely did, but sometimes the general audience do need some blanks filled in. In the Avengers there was some effort to show the team helping civilians. Although you are correct in showing the hypocrisy of the " man of Murder!" Crowd and giving Avengers a full pass.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> There were no negative reactions.  Whedon is adding some small scenes to bridge together what Snyder has already done.  He is not changing the tone of the movie and there aren't any major reshoots.  Just the standard stuff.  After BvS this became Johns universe.  His fingerprints are on every DC movie  now.  I think that is a good thing.  Zach Snyder's name is actually hurting the DCEU because some people just don't like him.  It would be smart to have another name guiding the DCEU.


I'm not trying to be overly antagonistic, but do you believe everything you read coming out of a movie studio? Why would a director with the resume of Joss Whedon come in to do bridging shoots and cleanup? That doesn't even make sense - they could have easily had an assistant director do that with no announcement at all. All I can think is that a lot of people commenting here don't know much about the movie industry. When was the last time you heard of a director with Whedon's credits just taking over for follow-up shoots? I don't think anything like that has ever happened, especially for a tentpole movie with a $200 million budget

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Oh, I know. I also know that movie studios say things that stretch the truth all of the time. It does them no good to make Snyder look bad - right now there are personal sensitivities, JL will still have his fingerprints all over it, and this was the guy that they chose to launch the DCEU. I'll stand by what I said: Snyder will not direct another DCEU movie no matter the reasons they give for it


To be fair though I think Snyder himself has said that after Justice League that he was probably done for awhile directing DCEU films. The only change may be that instead of perhaps JL2 being his Swan song, JL may now be given recent events in his personal life.

----------


## AcesX1X

i can easily see zack snyder staying on as a producer for all these various movies and being fine with letting someone else take over.  he can still be actively involved, but i think it's fairly clear that an unfair amount of negativity follows him.  maybe its personal, maybe not.  but he's a father of the dceu in many ways, so i think he should stay.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> To be fair though I think Snyder himself has said that after Justice League that he was probably done for awhile directing DCEU films. The only change may be that instead of perhaps JL2 being his Swan song, JL may now be given recent events in his personal life.


Just to be clear, I'm not a Snyder "hater" at all. I'm one of the rare people who really likes BvS, although I did think it needed a few bridging scenes to explain to the general audience what was going on. All I'm saying, and this will be the last time I promise, is that you don't bring Joss Whedon in to just do some touchup. He wouldn't even take a gig like that - if his name is going to be on it then there are major reshoots going on with his vision. No matter what they say

----------


## Pinsir

If you switch to the 'Top Critics' for the Wonder Woman score, _it has a 100%!_  :Cool:

----------


## Triple J

> I'm not trying to be overly antagonistic, but do you believe everything you read coming out of a movie studio? Why would a director with the resume of Joss Whedon come in to do bridging shoots and cleanup? That doesn't even make sense - they could have easily had an assistant director do that with no announcement at all. All I can think is that a lot of people commenting here don't know much about the movie industry. When was the last time you heard of a director with Whedon's credits just taking over for follow-up shoots? I don't think anything like that has ever happened, especially for a tentpole movie with a $200 million budget


I think Snyder itself mentioned why that was...they announced it explicitly to avoid creating narratives, which is the internet is fond of doing, especially with DCEU movies.

And didn't they mention that Snyder is the one who brought in Whedon, not WB? I suppose they could be lying. Whedon is doing the edits and adding some scenes (which were written by Zack) - sure, editing is important, but I wouldn't say it's more important than any other part of the film, all of which were handled by Zack.

JL will very much be a Zack Snyder film. 

And let's not forget, Whedon has worked with other directors like this - mostly in writing scripts (Toy story, if I remember correctly).

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I know that all reviews aren't it yet, but I expected early to mid 80's percentage wise.  I did NOT expect 96%!!!


Oh wow I just checked and you are wrong it has gone up to 97%! 

That was the first time I checked RT for a film this year lol.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> I think Snyder itself mentioned why that was...they announced it explicitly to avoid creating narratives, which is the internet is fond of doing, especially with DCEU movies.
> 
> And didn't they mention that Snyder is the one who brought in Whedon, not WB? I suppose they could be lying. Whedon is doing the edits and adding some scenes (which were written by Zack) - sure, editing is important, but I wouldn't say it's more important than any other part of the film, all of which were handled by Zack.
> 
> JL will very much be a Zack Snyder film. 
> 
> And let's not forget, Whedon has worked with other directors like this - mostly in writing scripts (Toy story, if I remember correctly).


Ok, I'll just post one more time to more fully explain what I'm talking about since this is a good discussion w/o name calling  :Wink:  Yes, Whedon has written movies, and he has worked with others before, but that is different than just getting a completed movie in his lap and editing it. Although, I will say that many have said that editing is one of Snyder's real weaknesses as a director (BvS had many cool scenes that were edited together in a really disjointed way). One of Snyder's real strengths is action scenes and scenes with heavy CGI - in fact, that's how he really made his name with 300. In a movie like this I would imagine those scenes take up half of the running time and are likely very well done if Snyder's past work is any indication. My guess is that Whedon was brought in for the quieter scenes to add heart, levity and a bit of light to the flick. Those are all weaknesses of Snyder and strengths of Whedon. So yes, this movie will have Snyder all over it, but again someone with Whedon's resume wasn't just brought in to edit a finished movie.

And I'll tread lightly here, since it is a very personal matter and I don't wish to speculate too much, but Snyder's daughter passed in March. This change is happening in May. I just don't think that is the main reason for him to leave a 90% completed movie

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I'm not trying to be overly antagonistic, but do you believe everything you read coming out of a movie studio? Why would a director with the resume of Joss Whedon come in to do bridging shoots and cleanup?


I don't believe everything that a studio says.  However I do believe the contacts that I know at WB and DC Entertainment.  They're aren't the blind follower types and since they are young they criticize at will.  They've confirmed that Snyder brought Whedon on.  I trust those sources not media releases.  If I had heard differently I would have said otherwise.  A lot of people commenting don't know how the industry works.  I am not one of them.  I make a very comfortable living in this industry and have contacts at many of the major studios.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Ok, I'll just post one more time to more fully explain what I'm talking about since this is a good discussion w/o name calling  Yes, Whedon has written movies, and he has worked with others before, but that is different than just getting a completed movie in his lap and editing it. Although, I will say that many have said that editing is one of Snyder's real weaknesses as a director (BvS had many cool scenes that were edited together in a really disjointed way). One of Snyder's real strengths is action scenes and scenes with heavy CGI - in fact, that's how he really made his name with 300. In a movie like this I would imagine those scenes take up half of the running time and are likely very well done if Snyder's past work is any indication. My guess is that Whedon was brought in for the quieter scenes to add heart, levity and a bit of light to the flick. Those are all weaknesses of Snyder and strengths of Whedon. So yes, this movie will have Snyder all over it, but again someone with Whedon's resume wasn't just brought in to edit a finished movie.
> 
> And I'll tread lightly here, since it is a very personal matter and I don't wish to speculate too much, but Snyder's daughter passed in March. This change is happening in May. I just don't think that is the main reason for him to leave a 90% completed movie


Your guess as to why Whedon was brought in is spot on.  That is what I meant by "bridging scenes."  

The change was announced in March but  insiders knew about the change before.  It is one of those rare occasions where the media showed class.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I don't believe everything that a studio says.  However I do believe the contacts that I know at WB and DC Entertainment.  They're aren't the blind follower types and since they are young they criticize at will.  They've confirmed that Snyder brought Whedon on.  I trust those sources not media releases.  If I had heard differently I would have said otherwise.


Yeah I think Roven also confirmed that as well.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Good point, although,I still maintain MOS Should have had a short scene between the death of Zod and the drone scene of Supes helping dig out Metropolis . Yeah, we know he likely did, but sometimes the general audience do need some blanks filled in. In the Avengers there was some effort to show the team helping civilians. Although you are correct in showing the hypocrisy of the " man of Murder!" Crowd and giving Avengers a full pass.


Yeah that would have been a welcome addition.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah I think Roven also confirmed that as well.


The funny thing is that Roven's statements are some of the ones that I take with a grain of salt.  He is like the PR Producer.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Sure it is, just pretend nobody is suffering from the urban destruction until 10 movies in.


Lets just be real. Nobody was ever really upset with the amount of collateral damage in the DCEU movies. They were really upset that they were just so poorly paced and failed to really tell a coherent story. The complaint about the excessive damage was just an easy target.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Lets just be real. Nobody was ever really upset with the amount of collateral damage in the DCEU movies. They were really upset that they were just so poorly paced and failed to really tell a coherent story. The complaint about the excessive damage was just an easy target.


I never heard complaints about city destruction until MoS and BvS, not kidding, lying, etc. NEVER heard city and civilain casualties being a complaint until those two movies.

*Watches MCU movies destruction and death counts. Turns back to criticism, scratches head.*

When I was walking out of BvS I overheard 3 guys mock how there weren't any people during the Doomsday fight. Even though Man of Steel was criticized for it AND BvS addressed it via dialogue in the movie (the news report saying the downtown core was empty after rush hour). 

It's crap like that that really makes me think sometimes, people are warped or are so engrained for their team that they can't just enjoy things.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Sure it is, just pretend nobody is suffering from the urban destruction until 10 movies in.


First of all let me say that I'm not against death in superhero movies. There were times in Age of Ultron where I wished the Avengers had been shown failing to save lives (like when Cap couldn't stop a car from falling off the city). We understand that not everyone can be saved so we can be forgiving when the heroes fail. 

But what most superhero movies do is leave the impression that many people likely died without going for the extra shock value. I think Zack wanted to use death to add weight to the movie but he was a little sadistic about it. I could safely assume people were being crushed by the world engines so I didn't need to hear their screams as they were lifted hundreds of feet into the air and slammed into the earth until they were ground to dust.  It was horrific and felt excessive. I didn't have any children with me but I'm sure they didn't need to be that close to it either. So there was a visceral, or intimate element to the mass deaths in Man of Steel not yet seen in many other superhero movies. That's what I think the biggest difference is in the way the movies are judged. Rather than dismissing people's points as giving other movies a free pass, think instead of what's actually different about the scenes we see. I think other film studios are careful not to cross these lines, especially after the reaction to Man of Steel, perhaps maybe even to a fault.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> But what most superhero movies do is leave the impression that many people likely died without going for the extra shock value. I think Zack wanted to use death to add weight to the movie but he was a little sadistic about it.


IMO, I think he was trying to show a more plausible fight scene than what has been the case in the past.

----------


## krazijoe

Maybe Zod should have killed the Kid to make Superman snap literally and figuratively...

----------


## nightrider

This movie will save the DCEU, the movie is so good. *moved to tears.

----------


## Rogue Star

> IMO, I think he was trying to show a more plausible fight scene than what has been the case in the past.


The fight was a smaller issue for me.  It was the carnage caused by the terraformers that felt unnecessary, excessive and sadistic to me.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Lets just be real. Nobody was ever really upset with the amount of collateral damage in the DCEU movies. They were really upset that they were just so poorly paced and failed to really tell a coherent story. The complaint about the excessive damage was just an easy target.


I'd say the tone and "new" characterization choices were even more jarring for audiences than the coherence/editing angle. But I would agree. I was just responding to someone who literally cited people dying in urban destruction in MoS.




> First of all let me say that I'm not against death in superhero movies. There were times in Age of Ultron where I wished the Avengers had been shown failing to save lives (like when Cap couldn't stop a car from falling off the city). We understand that not everyone can be saved so we can be forgiving when the heroes fail. 
> 
> But what most superhero movies do is leave the impression that many people likely died without going for the extra shock value. I think Zack wanted to use death to add weight to the movie but he was a little sadistic about it. I could safely assume people were being crushed by the world engines so I didn't need to hear their screams as they were lifted hundreds of feet into the air and slammed into the earth until they were ground to dust.  It was horrific and felt excessive. I didn't have any children with me but I'm sure they didn't need to be that close to it either. So there was a visceral, or intimate element to the mass deaths in Man of Steel not yet seen in many other superhero movies. That's what I think the biggest difference is in the way the movies are judged. Rather than dismissing people's points as giving other movies a free pass, think instead of what's actually different about the scenes we see. I think other film studios are careful not to cross these lines, especially after the reaction to Man of Steel, perhaps maybe even to a fault.


I don't remember any bodies being visibly ground into the Earth screaming. The most up-close suffering we saw was Jenny thinking she was about to die. That scene was impactful and made Superman's efforts more worthwhile. Shock value is someone dying right before your eyes in gruesome fashion and that didn't happen.

It may be less marketable but saving the world shouldn't be filled with one-liners and followed by a casual shwarma lunch.




> The fight was a smaller issue for me.  It was the carnage caused by the terraformers that felt unnecessary, excessive and sadistic to me.


Zod is sadistic. I don't see why creators constantly get blamed for portraying Super-villains as actually villainous.

----------


## MosSuperman

> I think the main lessons that should be learned​ are...
> 
> 1) every film doesn't require 3 hours of run time and a 200 million plus budget. 
> 
> 2) Don't micromanage things to death. Let your creative people create. Both BvS and SS  suffered from the studio mandated cuts ( BvS)and reshoots (SS) .


On solos I agree. I don't see a reason why there has to be a $200 million plus budget for every superhero film but when it comes to JL or avengers I would understand why.

----------


## Rogue Star

> This movie will save the DCEU, the movie is so good. *moved to tears.


I'll be there Thursday night. Might have to call in sick Friday.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rogue Star

> I'd say the tone and "new" characterization choices were even more jarring for audiences than the coherence/editing angle. But I would agree. I was just responding to someone who literally cited people dying in urban destruction in MoS.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember any bodies being visibly ground into the Earth screaming. The most up-close suffering we saw was Jenny thinking she was about to die. That scene was impactful and made Superman's efforts more worthwhile. Shock value is someone dying right before your eyes in gruesome fashion and that didn't happen.
> 
> It may be less marketable but saving the world shouldn't be filled with one-liners and followed by a casual shwarma lunch.
> 
> 
> ...


Speaking in general, that's fine as long as they understand how it's going to be received by FAMILIES who go to see the movie. If WB doesn't give a damn, more power to them. 

Speaking for myself, it's not what I go to the movies for. There's a level that I'm fine not experiencing a villain reach to understand that he's a POS.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Speaking in general, that's fine as long as they understand how it's going to be received by FAMILIES who go to see the movie. If WB doesn't give a damn, more power to them. 
> 
> Speaking for myself, it's not what I go to the movies for. There's a level that I'm fine not experiencing a villain reach to understand that he's a POS.


I really don't see what's so traumatic in MoS that families can't go see it. Both big-screen incarnations of the Joker, Zod from Superman 2, Magneto, Winter Soldier, and Ultron cause more visible death and harm depicted more vividly than the world engine in MoS.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I really don't see what's so traumatic in MoS that families can't go see it. Both big-screen incarnations of the Joker, Zod from Superman 2, Magneto, Winter Soldier, and Ultron cause more visible death and harm than the world engine in MoS.


How many families have brought their children to see Toho flicks from Japan since my parents were still in elementary school back in the '50s? Countless people were killed in those films by the monsters, yet all of us kids still ate it up.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I really don't see what's so traumatic in MoS that families can't go see it. Both big-screen incarnations of the Joker, Zod from Superman 2, Magneto, Winter Soldier, and Ultron cause more visible death and harm depicted more vividly than the world engine in MoS.


I don't think any of those examples match the horror of the world engines. But if you didn't respond to the scenes on the same level I did while watching it there's nothing I can say to help you understand where I'm coming from. On that note, we can move on.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> 


More.

----------


## Rogue Star

Looking at those popcorn buckets make me think about how many girls are going to be dressing up as Wonder Woman and buying her merchandise this year. I hope Disney/Marvel kicks themselves in the ass with both feet because they're about to get embarrassed.

----------


## AcesX1X

wonder woman is now up to 97% on RT if you can believe it.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> wonder woman is now up to 97% on RT if you can believe it.


On track to be the best reviewed comic book movie ever: https://www.maxim.com/entertainment/...reviews-2017-5

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Looking at those popcorn buckets make me think about how many girls are going to be dressing up as Wonder Woman and buying her merchandise this year. I hope Disney/Marvel kicks themselves in the ass with both feet because they're about to get embarrassed.


Definitely, heck even as a guy I'd be buying WW merch! 
You're right there is no excuse for why MARVEL didn't do this sooner, BW could have made an enthralling spy film but no we gotta get 7 iron man films heck they may even be lapped by Sony with Black Cat!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> On track to be the best reviewed comic book movie ever: https://www.maxim.com/entertainment/...reviews-2017-5


If it can survive the inevitable slew of negatives if I were to hedge a guess probably low 90's high 80's when it's all said and done.

----------


## Rogue Star

> If it can survive the inevitable slew of negatives if I were to hedge a guess probably low 90's high 80's when it's all said and done.


My youtube subscription feed is full of Wonder Woman reviews (all look positive) and there is no shortage of men dressed as Diana.

I can't tell if people are coming out as Wondy fans... or just coming out.  

It's none of my business though. >.>

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> My youtube subscription feed is full of Wonder Woman reviews (all look positive) and there is no shortage of men dressed as Diana.
> 
> I can't tell if people are coming out as Wondy fans... or just coming out.  
> 
> It's none of my business though. >.>


Haha. 

Yeah a bunch of vids came in my sub box too but don't wanna watch them just yet until I have, that way I'm not influenced one way or the other

----------


## Rogue Star

> Definitely, heck even as a guy I'd be buying WW merch! 
> You're right there is no excuse for why MARVEL didn't do this sooner, BW could have made an enthralling spy film but no we gotta get 7 iron man films heck they may even be lapped by Sony with Black Cat!


Black Widow can't compete with Wonder Woman. I understand they don't have the rights to X-men so their best females are off the table but they still could have pushed for Wasp or Ms. Marvel (before she becomes Captain Marvel).  Marvel didn't put their best foot forward and it's really about to be egg on their face. It might have been due to previous management (Ike Perlmutter) impeding the progress but he's been out of the way long enough by now. There's no excuse. I expect them to really start cranking out the Captain Marvel news soon. It's going to take some serious creative liberties to make that character hold up an entire movie alone though because she's about as fun as watching (edit: paint) dry out. And if they plan on having her take over as the new leader of the Avengers after Infinity War, I honestly expect to see a character completely different from the comics. But all that might be too little too late.

----------


## Prime

Hopefully the success of Wonder Woman means good things going forward.

----------


## The Kid

WW's RT trajectory looks very similar to Doctor Strange so I'd say it finishes around 90-92% on the tomato-meter and 7.3-7.7 on the average rating. Both very good scores

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Front page article is saying domestic opening is still on track for $65+ million and a total $175 million global opening. I'm a little shocked, I wasn't going to put this below $200 million opening weekend. Still impressive, but hopefully it has legs for the 2nd and 3rd weekends.

----------


## The Kid

> Front page article is saying domestic opening is still on track for $65+ million and a total $175 million global opening. I'm a little shocked, I wasn't going to put this below $200 million opening weekend. Still impressive, but hopefully it has legs for the 2nd and 3rd weekends.


It'll almost certainly make more than that. Book that. 

That being said, even that will lead to Wonder Woman making a very good profit. Low expectations allows you to be pleasantly surprised when the weekend comes.

----------


## Robotman

> WW's RT trajectory looks very similar to Doctor Strange so I'd say it finishes around 90-92% on the tomato-meter and 7.3-7.7 on the average rating. Both very good scores


7.3 out of 10? Isn't that a 'C'?

----------


## The Kid

> 7.3 out of 10? Isn't that a 'C'?


Generally different critics have different scales but 7.3 is pretty solid for the most part. Logan has a 7.9, The Avengers has a 8.0, and Wonder Woman is sitting at about a 7.7 so it should finish around the ballpark as those two movies. Most really good superhero movies finish around that spot. The big exceptions are The Dark Knight (8.6) and Spider-Man (8.3) and considering those are considered two of the greatest if not the two greatest superhero movies ever, it's not that surprising

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Front page article is saying domestic opening is still on track for $65+ million and a total $175 million global opening. I'm a little shocked, I wasn't going to put this below $200 million opening weekend. Still impressive, but hopefully it has legs for the 2nd and 3rd weekends.


I think it will have legs.  Also the critical response to the previous three movies may be effecting the opening weekend sales on Wonder Woman.  You can't say for sure but it is a definite possibility.

----------


## Ascended

> I think it will have legs.  Also the critical response to the previous three movies may be effecting the opening weekend sales on Wonder Woman.  You can't say for sure but it is a definite possibility.


What's the competition look like for the second-third weeks? WW's performance will be impacted by the other stuff hitting theaters too.

----------


## Troian

> On track to be the best reviewed comic book movie ever: https://www.maxim.com/entertainment/...reviews-2017-5


Just wait till 2 weeks from now when the real score should be revealed when many will have seen it by then.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> What's the competition look like for the second-third weeks? WW's performance will be impacted by the other stuff hitting theaters too.


The Mummy is out June 9th.  Cars 3 June 16th.  Transformers June 21st.  Cars 3 should take the box office that weekend.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

WW will open big possibly over take MoS opening record and if it follows MoS trajectory from there it'll be a success. Heck anything from 600m plus will be a success.

----------


## Triple J

> Ok, I'll just post one more time to more fully explain what I'm talking about since this is a good discussion w/o name calling  Yes, Whedon has written movies, and he has worked with others before, but that is different than just getting a completed movie in his lap and editing it. Although, I will say that many have said that editing is one of Snyder's real weaknesses as a director (BvS had many cool scenes that were edited together in a really disjointed way). One of Snyder's real strengths is action scenes and scenes with heavy CGI - in fact, that's how he really made his name with 300. In a movie like this I would imagine those scenes take up half of the running time and are likely very well done if Snyder's past work is any indication. My guess is that Whedon was brought in for the quieter scenes to add heart, levity and a bit of light to the flick. Those are all weaknesses of Snyder and strengths of Whedon. So yes, this movie will have Snyder all over it, but again someone with Whedon's resume wasn't just brought in to edit a finished movie.
> 
> And I'll tread lightly here, since it is a very personal matter and I don't wish to speculate too much, but Snyder's daughter passed in March. This change is happening in May. I just don't think that is the main reason for him to leave a 90% completed movie


Perhaps, at this point all we can do is speculate.

In any case, I hope Whedon won't do anything too drastic and keeps in line with Zack's vision (I think he will do that). And WB certainly wouldn't meddle, if they were smart (I don't think Whedon would agree to do something like this otherwise, considering his experience with Disney).

Yeah, but the actual editor is the same person - David Brenner, if I remember correctly. And Snyder been using Brenner for many of his movies. So, I do wonder if it's him or just the team he works with. I guess we will have to wait and see.




> First of all let me say that I'm not against death in superhero movies. There were times in Age of Ultron where I wished the Avengers had been shown failing to save lives (like when Cap couldn't stop a car from falling off the city). We understand that not everyone can be saved so we can be forgiving when the heroes fail. 
> 
> But what most superhero movies do is leave the impression that many people likely died without going for the extra shock value. I think Zack wanted to use death to add weight to the movie but he was a little sadistic about it. I could safely assume people were being crushed by the world engines so I didn't need to hear their screams as they were lifted hundreds of feet into the air and slammed into the earth until they were ground to dust.  It was horrific and felt excessive. I didn't have any children with me but I'm sure they didn't need to be that close to it either. So there was a visceral, or intimate element to the mass deaths in Man of Steel not yet seen in many other superhero movies. That's what I think the biggest difference is in the way the movies are judged. Rather than dismissing people's points as giving other movies a free pass, think instead of what's actually different about the scenes we see. I think other film studios are careful not to cross these lines, especially after the reaction to Man of Steel, perhaps maybe even to a fault.


Hmm, perhaps.

Joker in Dark Knight was sadistic....but, that never invoked a feeling similar to when terraforming began, you saw people being pulled, screaming and dying.

WB had balls to allow Zack to do something like that (and I commend them for it). On the other hand, it's not something parents would want their children to see (And not exactly the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of Superman). Zack chose to place superman in a more realistic world, akin to our own, with consequences.

And that did take people by surprise.

----------


## Ascended

> The Mummy is out June 9th.  Cars 3 June 16th.  Transformers June 21st.  Cars 3 should take the box office that weekend.


Yeah, only real threat I see there is Cars 3, and that's not so much a threat as a movie that is absolutely going to crush everything else that weekend, Diana included. But Mummy? I dont see that stopping Wonder Woman.

----------


## mace11

I have not posted here in this thread for awhile and not read anything since i left.Well only some of the recent post because of the aquaman and justice league movies and upcoming wonder woman movie and i am glad it is doing well with critics.


One of reason i left is because there too much bashing of the mcu films.
By the way i like the dceu films.I still have not seen SS yet.




> It may be less marketable but saving the world shouldn't be filled with one-liners and followed by a casual shwarma lunch.


Now for reason i am posting.
I think you have avengers movies mixed up there.
The avengers movie did not have bunch of one liners but there was humor.
It was close to superman the movie and superman 2 in overall tone.
Now if you talking about avengers 2 then you could say there were some of one liners and more humor in film but nobody shawarma at the end of movie.
Avengers 2 was still close to the  superman  movies in overall tone.
As for marvel mcu movie formula?
The mcu movie formula is making really good movies with varied tones and that's what they have been doing for 15 films.
DC/Wb is wise to follow alot of that or follow it now.
They had no problem doing it in the past.

----------


## mace11

> Generally different critics have different scales but 7.3 is pretty solid for the most part. Logan has a 7.9, The Avengers has a 8.0, and Wonder Woman is sitting at about a 7.7 so it should finish around the ballpark as those two movies. Most really good superhero movies finish around that spot. The big exceptions are The Dark Knight (8.6) and Spider-Man (8.3) and considering those are considered two of the greatest if not the two greatest superhero movies ever, it's not that surprising


A 7.3 or 73 rt score in movie talk is 3 1/2 star movie.

7.5  or 75 rt score and up is 4 stars and up in movie talk.
7.3 or 73  rt score  is very good,but not great.
7.5 or 75 rt score is great.
8.5 or 85 rt score is really great and 4 1/2 stars and anything with a 9.5 or 95% rt score and up is excellent and 5 stars.

----------


## mace11

Check these out.
Interesting talk here.

Negativity towards the MCU films?  
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=530665
and

Negativity towards the DC films?  
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=530489

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## The Kid

> A 7.3 or 73 rt score in movie talk is 3 1/2 star movie.
> 
> 7.5  or 75 rt score and up is 4 stars and up in movie talk.
> 7.3 or 73  rt score  is very good,but not great.
> 7.5 or 75 rt score is great.
> 8.5 or 85 rt score is really great and 4 1/2 stars and anything with a 9.5 or 95% rt score and up is excellent and 5 stars.


I think the 8.5 and 85 are two different things. The 85 is the percent of people giving it a thumbs up whereas the 8.5 is the score out of 10. For example, so far, WW has been recommended by 97% of critics but has an average score of 7.7. Doctor Strange was recommended by 90% of critics and has an average score of 7.3

----------


## Dominick1216

Can somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the reviews and scores for _Suicide Squad_ days before the release as good as _Wonder Woman_ is doing right now?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Check these out.
> Interesting talk here.
> 
> Negativity towards the MCU films?  
> http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=530665


Is this guy serious? Please say no.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Check these out.
> Interesting talk here.
> 
> Negativity towards the MCU films?  
> http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=530665
> and
> 
> Negativity towards the DC films?  
> http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=530489


What's so interesting about them?

----------


## Triple J

> I have not posted here in this thread for awhile and not read anything since i left.Well only some of the recent post because of the aquaman and justice league movies and upcoming wonder woman movie and i am glad it is doing well with critics.
> 
> 
> One of reason i left is because there too much bashing of the mcu films.
> By the way i like the dceu films.I still have not seen SS yet.
> 
> 
> Now for reason i am posting.
> I think you have avengers movies mixed up there.
> ...


Varied tones? Not necessarily. It's a shame really. Marvel is so full of potential...especially because their characters aren't exactly heroes - but flawed individual problems. But, none of them is explored in detail in any of the movies. Nothing to do with Marvel, but with Disney wanting to capture the family audience. It's pretty much evident in many of their movies - they have a certain formula and they stick with it. But, I do agree that they take risks, like with GOTG. Ultimately many of their movies just come down to popcorn fun (There's nothing wrong with it, I personally think it's foolish considering all the rich stories Marvel has published over the years. But then again, I don't stand to lose or again any movie over these movies). Oh, well I can always go back and read the comics.

For instance: Tony is an alcoholic..sure, they do show that in the IM movies, but I don't think it's explored in detail, like in the comics.

DC on the other hand, are generally the heroes - they aren't necessarily showcased as flawed individuals, but paragons of certain ideals. But, DCEU seem to go in a different route (Which I love btw).

----------


## El_Gato

> Can somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the reviews and scores for _Suicide Squad_ days before the release as good as _Wonder Woman_ is doing right now?


Nope! Not even close man. I believe Squad started around 43-46% and pretty much plummeted from there. Likewise with BVS. I don't remember where MOS started but I don't think it was too far off from the 56% it ended up at.

None of the previous 3 DCEU movies had a chance at being certified fresh, let a lone ending up in the 90 percentile like Wonder Woman has.

----------


## Punisher007

MOS started in the low to mid-70's (if I remember correctly) and then started dropping from there (as usually happens when more reviews come in).

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Can somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the reviews and scores for _Suicide Squad_ days before the release as good as _Wonder Woman_ is doing right now?


No, No, No!  SS was panned badly right away.

----------


## Pinsir

> MOS started in the low to mid-70's (if I remember correctly) and then started dropping from there (as usually happens when more reviews come in).


The MoS score was actually higher, when the final score settled I believe it landed at a 59%, just below the threshold of being considered fresh. However just before/after BvS a bunch of sites we re-viewed the film and gave it negative scores, sinking the score to 55%.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The MoS score was actually higher, when the final score settled I believe it landed at a 59%, just below the threshold of being considered fresh. However just before/after BvS a bunch of sites we re-viewed the film and gave it negative scores, sinking the score to 55%.


Seriously?

----------


## Dominick1216

> Nope! Not even close man. I believe Squad started around 43-46% and pretty much plummeted from there. Likewise with BVS. I don't remember where MOS started but I don't think it was too far off from the 56% it ended up at.
> 
> None of the previous 3 DCEU movies had a chance at being certified fresh, let a lone ending up in the 90 percentile like Wonder Woman has.


Thanks! I didn't follow the other three when they were released. All I remember was the night that _Suicide Squad_ came out as when the score was plummeting.

----------


## El_Gato

Hopefully we get to see these two on the big screen together in the near future!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Seriously?


BvS still has the most reviews of any film counted on RT.

----------


## Punisher007

> Hopefully we get to see these two on the big screen together in the near future!


I want to see these two:

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/sites/...iles/galww.jpg

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/sites/...eaguemanip.jpg

Interact, like a lot.

----------


## Confuzzled

The second lady to join the League (not counting Mera) should be Vixen.

----------


## Punisher007

Yeah the fact that Mera has never been on the JL in the comics is ridiculous to me.  And if she's going to be in the movie anyway, why not put her on the team?  At the very least, give her something cool to do at some point.

Aside from Vixen, Black Canary would be a good candidate as well.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah the fact that Mera has never been on the JL in the comics is ridiculous to me.  And if she's going to be in the movie anyway, why not put her on the team?  At the very least, give her something cool to do at some point.
> 
> Aside from Vixen, Black Canary would be a good candidate as well.


She's an Aquaman support character, Nightwing has a better case for JL membership but he's never made it either, they dont want over representation of one franchise.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The MoS score was actually higher, when the final score settled I believe it landed at a 59%, just below the threshold of being considered fresh. However just before/after BvS a bunch of sites we re-viewed the film and gave it negative scores, sinking the score to 55%.


This is not true at all.

----------


## Doctor Know

> This is not true at all.


MOS did tack on some negative reviews before and after BvS came out. I noticed the Star Wars Prequels also caught fresh negative reviews before and after TFA hit theaters.

Plus, you had people like Devin Faraci (formerly of Hitflix) who admitted that he and other critics he knew changed their positive reviews of MOS, to negative when they saw where it was trending. No news like bad news and they wanted to drive traffic to their websites.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> MOS did tack on some negative reviews before and after BvS came out. I noticed the Star Wars Prequels also caught fresh negative reviews before and after TFA hit theaters.
> 
> Plus, you had people like Devin Faraci (formerly of Hitflix) who admitted that he and other critics he knew changed their positive reviews of MOS, to negative when they saw where it was trending. No news like bad news and they wanted to drive traffic to their websites.


All true, unfortunately.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> All true, unfortunately.


Just shows what a joke these bloggers are and why they keep getting fired from jobs.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Just shows what a joke these bloggers are and why they keep getting fired from jobs.


If you don't have faith in them, then they are not worth listening to.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I really don't see what's so traumatic in MoS that families can't go see it. Both big-screen incarnations of the Joker, Zod from Superman 2, Magneto, Winter Soldier, and Ultron cause more visible death and harm depicted more vividly than the world engine in MoS.


I took my family (including 2 girls, ages 5 & 8 at the time) to see MoS opening day. The kids absolutely loved it (shrug). I never realized they were supposed to be "shocked", "traumatized", or "sickened" by the "sadistic" Zach Snyder lol

----------


## vasir12

> The second lady to join the League (not counting Mera) should be Vixen.


Co-signed 


10 char

----------


## Punisher007

> She's an Aquaman support character, Nightwing has a better case for JL membership but he's never made it either, they dont want over representation of one franchise.


That's really dumb if true.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> MOS did tack on some negative reviews before and after BvS came out. I noticed the Star Wars Prequels also caught fresh negative reviews before and after TFA hit theaters.
> 
> Plus, you had people like Devin Faraci (formerly of Hitflix) who admitted that he and other critics he knew changed their positive reviews of MOS, to negative when they saw where it was trending. No news like bad news and they wanted to drive traffic to their websites.


To the degree that it dropped 4% points? highly unlikely. Faraci is an egotistical moron whom DC fans have given waay too much importance. He's the definition of hipster.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> That's really dumb if true.


It makes sense though, if Dick joined the League people would cry about Bat wank. If they balanced it by adding Kara, Mera etc people would cry about redundancy and DC ignoring their entire universe in favor of a select few franchises.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It makes sense though, if Dick joined the League people would cry about Bat wank. If they balanced it by adding Kara, Mera etc people would cry about redundancy and DC ignoring their entire universe in favor of a select few franchises.


In this particular case, I think I have to agree. Too much favoritism toward ANY of the Big Seven franchises just starts to imbalance the League, and there is a risk of redundancy. If Nightwing joined the League, what does he bring to the team that Batman doesn't already? Well, aside from being a nice guy the other Leaguers would actually LIKE being around? If Donna joined the League? She has nothing that Diana doesn't have. Why do you need two Wonders? Supergirl? Same powers as Superman. Same story.

No, if we want Mera (or ANY other members of the other Big Seven franchises) in the Justice League, it makes sense to rotate them in and out. Mera's a good example of how this can work. Mera is much better-suited for when the League operates away from water. Away from water, Aquaman is just a strong guy with a trident. Useful, sure. But he just can't use the full extent of his powers away from marine life. Mera, on the other hand, can use ALL her powers no matter where she is. So if the League needs something done in the water, they call Aquaman. If they're going into Khandaq to fight Black Adam? Mera has a better chance at being useful against him than Arthur does. 

Want Nightwing on the League? Batman's a busy man. Maybe he can't always make it to every Justice League emergency, so he sends Dick instead. Kara can fill in for Superman while Superman is off in another galaxy, trying to stop Mongul. So on and so forth.

----------


## AcesX1X

vixen would be awesome to see on screen.  unfortunately, i dont know how likely it is to get her.  dc needs to promote her more than just on orlando's justice league if they want her to be a heavy hitter.

----------


## The Kid

Tbh I think Mera is different enough that she could fit into the Justice League fine if they really wanted her

----------


## Vanguard-01

> vixen would be awesome to see on screen.  unfortunately, i dont know how likely it is to get her.  dc needs to promote her more than just on orlando's justice league if they want her to be a heavy hitter.


Yep. Vixen would be a perfect addition to the Justice League. Especially in the movies. Both women and minorities have complained about Marvel's lack of effort in representing them since the MCU came into being. Vixen could serve both women and minorities on the Justice League, and her powers would be interesting and make her useful for multiple roles within the team. She wouldn't seem like a token character at all. She's a "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" kind of character. She can do a little bit of everything. Frontline combat, stealth, reconnaissance.....you name it.

----------


## Punisher007

The whole "there can be only one woman on the team to start with" cliché is just annoying as well.  It doesn't have to be such a sausage fest.

----------


## Troian

> Yeah, only real threat I see there is Cars 3, and that's not so much a threat as a movie that is absolutely going to crush everything else that weekend, Diana included. But Mummy? I dont see that stopping Wonder Woman.


Transformers has 4 films under its belt proving it can make money.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Transformers has 4 films under its belt proving it can make money.


True, but Transformers has been declining for the last couple movies. Ironically, their US ticket sales have been going down, but the international sales have been going up.

Add the fact that the trailers are making this movie look like more same-ol' same-ol', and it may not do as well up against a movie with this kind of fan and critical reception.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

WW tomorrow morning! Let the hype flow through my veins!

----------


## Troian

> True, but Transformers has been declining for the last couple movies. Ironically, their US ticket sales have been going down, but the international sales have been going up.
> 
> Add the fact that the trailers are making this movie look like more same-ol' same-ol', and it may not do as well up against a movie with this kind of fan and critical reception.


Transformers will likely hurt WW's international market. 

In other news WW is banned in Lebanon. Not surprised. There were already "Zionist scum" and IDF comments surrounding Gadot. But it won't really hurt their profits tbh.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Transformers will likely hurt WW's international market.


Possible. Good thing it'll be a couple weeks before Transformers comes out. Hopefully Diana will rake in the money before that becomes a real issue. 




> In other news WW is banned in Lebanon. Not surprised. There were already "Zionist scum" and IDF comments surrounding Gadot. But it won't really hurt their profits tbh.


Oh noes! How will we live on without that critical Middle East market!  :Wink:

----------


## richalex

> The second lady to join the League (not counting Mera) should be Vixen.


I agree, Vixen should definitely be there (I actually would have preferred her over Cyborg). Black Canary should also be there. As the Second Leading lady of the DCU, imo, she deserves it.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I definitely want me some Vixen but I feel like Shayera/Kendra has as much of an argument. Black Canary closely follows those two.

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## El_Gato

> I want to see these two:
> 
> http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/sites/...iles/galww.jpg
> 
> http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/sites/...eaguemanip.jpg
> 
> Interact, like a lot.


I like Mera, but I'm just a bigger fan of Hawkgirl. Plus with Aquaman already around I don't think she should join the League.

Hopefully DC doesn't ignore the fact that Hawkgirl is the most requested female character to join the League! I mean she's up there with GL, MM and Shazam in request numbers!

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Wonder Woman has already dropped to 94% with just over 100 reviews in. 3% in just a few hours with probably 100+ more reviews to come in.

For those who care.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Wonder Woman has already dropped to 94% with just over 100 reviews in. 3% in just a few hours with probably 100+ more reviews to come in.
> 
> For those who care.


Wow that's pretty impressive, I was expecting it to drop around the high 80's 100 reviews in, but it's still in the 90's then it'll probably settle around the high 80's or even low 90's.

----------


## nightbird

I didn't know DCEU is premiering new intro logo with Wonder Woman. People say it looks like Justice League Animation intro.

----------


## El_Gato

> I didn't know DCEU is premiering new intro logo with Wonder Woman. People say it looks like Justice League Animation intro.






It'll probably get taken down soon but it's awesome!! Can't wait to see it on the big screen!

----------


## Frontier

> It'll probably get taken down soon but it's awesome!! Can't wait to see it on the big screen!


I wonder how much of this is promoting their heroes or potentially their plans for the DCEU? 

I think I see Green Arrow, Shazam, and the Hawks in there.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Spoilers dude!

----------


## MadFacedKid

> It'll probably get taken down soon but it's awesome!! Can't wait to see it on the big screen!


I'm in pretty insane disbelief the showcased Arthur and Vic like that and not Bruce. Happy for the prior two, hope them being showcased is something we get a hell of a lot more of.

----------


## FishyZombie

> I'm in pretty insane disbelief the showcased Arthur and Vic like that and not Bruce. Happy for the prior two, hope them being showcased is something we get a hell of a lot more of.


and I'm surprised Aquaman doesn't seem to have the bearded, long hair look.

----------


## El_Gato

> I wonder how much of this is promoting their heroes or potentially their plans for the DCEU? 
> 
> I think I see Green Arrow, Shazam, and the Hawks in there.


I can't wait to see it on the big screen! Hopefully we get an HD closeup of that... I'd love to see which characters were included besides the obvious (Hawks, Green Arrow, Shazam and the JL characters)...

----------


## nightbird

> I'm in pretty insane disbelief the showcased Arthur and Vic like that and not Bruce. Happy for the prior two, hope them being showcased is something we get a hell of a lot more of.


I think Batman was before Superman, you can see his symbol. They showed all 7 JL members. 
Cool, I see now why my friends couldn't shut up about it when they went to see WW. Nice to see Green Lantern also being here. I hope with each new movie they would add new characters.

----------


## Johnny

> and I'm surprised Aquaman doesn't seem to have the bearded, long hair look.


The intro seems to showcase the comic versions of the characters. I believe Diana's design resembles the Rebirth look, Cyborg has the "C" on his chest, which he does not have in the movie version, Flash's costume doesn't seem to be based on the movie version either and Hal has white gloves(I think).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Wonder Woman has already dropped to 94% with just over 100 reviews in. 3% in just a few hours with probably 100+ more reviews to come in.
> 
> For those who care.


And she just clawed her way back up to 95%! 

This is kind of fun!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rogue Star

I don't know about that intro. It feels like I'm about to watch Justice League Unlimited. Lol.

----------


## Rogue Star

> And she just clawed her way back up to 95%! 
> 
> This is kind of fun!


When it dips below 94% and climbs back up to 95% you have to take a shot.

----------


## Doctor Know

> To the degree that it dropped 4% points? highly unlikely. Faraci is an egotistical moron whom DC fans have given waay too much importance. He's the definition of hipster.


Myself and others only reference Faraci's statements because he acknowledges what myself and many others suspected about critic reviews about MOS. That the amount of people who disliked the film were exaggerated and professional critics did castigate it with negative reviews not because they disliked it or Snyder erred in his interpretation, but because they wanted to join bandwagon against it and drive traffic to their websites. Andy Signor of Screenjunkies admitted his team also did the same thing regarding MOS and BvS. The indignity of it all, is they will misrepresent their feelings about a project and then turn around and use their misrepresentation as fact that what the DCEU doing is wrong. 

Besides, what does his lifestyle choice as a hipster supposed to signify?  Max Landis and Lindsay Ellis (the Nostalgia Chick) are hipster, content creators and they have thousands of followers/an audience who listens to them. That's influence they can use to effect the decisions and opinions of others. Same was true of Faraci, before he resigned after sexual harassment allegations.

----------


## Vanguard-01

A new negative review just appeared on RT.

If this is the quality of argument for the haters? Then that's just sad. Her reason for not liking the movie? "How DARE this movie have Steve Trevor explain the outside world to Diana! How DARE this movie not be a total misandrist-fest!"

https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/05...-mansplaining/ No spoilers. Just a very sad argument from someone who obviously knows nothing whatsoever about Wonder Woman.

----------


## Johnny

Aww "mansplaining". How cute. I think she is just mad that unlike her, Gal has one ass instead of two.

----------


## LordTrump

> Aww "mansplaining". How cute. I think she is just mad that unlike her, Gal has one ass instead of two.


And only one chin.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The intro seems to showcase the comic versions of the characters. I believe Diana's design resembles the Rebirth look, Cyborg has the "C" on his chest, which he does not have in the movie version, Flash's costume doesn't seem to be based on the movie version either and Hal has white gloves(I think).


Maybe that is the second Flash costume that he gets?

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> And she just clawed her way back up to 95%! 
> 
> This is kind of fun!


I find a little enjoyment in the analysis aspect of it. 




> A new negative review just appeared on RT.
> 
> If this is the quality of argument for the haters? Then that's just sad. Her reason for not liking the movie? "How DARE this movie have Steve Trevor explain the outside world to Diana! How DARE this movie not be a total misandrist-fest!"
> 
> https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/05...-mansplaining/ No spoilers. Just a very sad argument from someone who obviously knows nothing whatsoever about Wonder Woman.


I read a couple of the negative reviews and they came off extremely petty to me. Like, they were trying to find things wrong with it on purpose. One I read was so focused on this being a DC/DCEU film, that he made sure that by the end of the review he told you like over a dozen times and even closed with something like "this isn't the film to save the DCEU." 




> When it dips below 94% and climbs back up to 95% you have to take a shot.


Oh, boy. Well, what are we drinking?

----------


## Rogue Star

I'll sit this one out. I haven't touched the hard stuff since I was felled by Bacardi 151 some years ago. ^_^;

----------


## silly

> A new negative review just appeared on RT.
> 
> If this is the quality of argument for the haters? Then that's just sad. Her reason for not liking the movie? "How DARE this movie have Steve Trevor explain the outside world to Diana! How DARE this movie not be a total misandrist-fest!"
> 
> https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/05...-mansplaining/ No spoilers. Just a very sad argument from someone who obviously knows nothing whatsoever about Wonder Woman.


some people are just not worth the attention.

----------


## Steven Kaye

> I think Batman was before Superman, you can see his symbol. They showed all 7 JL members. 
> Cool, I see now why my friends couldn't shut up about it when they went to see WW. Nice to see Green Lantern also being here. I hope with each new movie they would add new characters.


Yeas, Batman appears right before Superman. Sigh.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Yo! WW was beyond amazing, what's even better was not seeing any footage in 6 months! The end credits were even amazing.

----------


## Johnny

Got damn it, I won't see it until Saturday. Gotta stay away from this thread I guess. lol

----------


## liwanag

> Yo! WW was beyond amazing, what's even better was not seeing any footage in 6 months! The end credits were even amazing.


there. are. end. credits?

----------


## Troian

It's at 92 now. WW

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> there. are. end. credits?


No scenes just talking about the credits proper, was expecting boring black background with white scrolly text.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'll be giving a comprehensive spoiler-free review tonight after viewing. For anyone interested, I'm a fan of the DCEU so far but recognize the issues, both tonally and film-making wise, that people have with it. So I'll definitely be looking out for improvements on that front.

----------


## Johnny

> It's at 92 now. WW


Are people that worried about RT scores? I don't care if it drops to the low 60s, it has already gotten a better reception than anything the DCEU has delivered.

----------


## Troian

> Are people that worried about RT scores? I don't care if it drops to the early 60s, it has already gotten a better reception than anything the DCEU has delivered.


I don't care where it ends up. I just want to see how the general audience and critics say it stacks up compared to other CBM.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I'll be giving a comprehensive spoiler-free review tonight after viewing. For anyone interested, I'm a fan of the DCEU so far but recognize the issues, both tonally and film-making wise, that people have with it. So I'll definitely be looking out for improvements on that front.


Looking forward to it.




> Are people that worried about RT scores? I don't care if it drops to the early 60s, it has already gotten a better reception than anything the DCEU has delivered.


Let's not lie to ourselves, it would be nice to see this movie shatter RT scores to shut up all the haters and fanboys. After all, RT is apparently some divine, omnipotent source of knowledge and influence and is always used to throw into DCEU fans faces. 
I think it's typical that it's dropped 5% in one day, a greater ratio of negative reviews have been coming in as of late. And of the few I've browsed through, they come off as very whiny, stupid (the "mansplaining" one was horrid and shouldn't count), or as very MCU fanboyish. Just read through some of them if you don't believe me. And most of the negative reviews make comments about the run time. 

These critics are morons. And I do wholeheartedly believe many of them have red colored glasses on. No one can make me believe any different at this point. Sure, WW has been reviewing very well, but there is more to it than just this movie. Anyway, I slightly digress.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

I wonder (no pun intended) how much of the movie's RT score will translate into ticket sales beyond the score itself. What I mean is: the previous DCEU films had lackluster numbers, yet still were successful. Will there be something extra at the box office beyond the critical success of _Wonder Woman_? Whatever it is, I can't see it being the disconnect we saw with _Batman vs. Superman_.  :Smile:

----------


## The Kid

Good reviews generally leads to better legs and a higher multiplier. BvS, for example, had less than a 2.0 multiplier and would have easily made a billion with its OW if it weren't for negative word of mouth. Compare that to the original Guardians of the Galaxy which had a pretty small OW but great word of mouth and reviews led it to have great legs. The reviews will absolutely help Wonder Woman

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> I wonder (no pun intended) how much of the movie's RT score will translate into ticket sales beyond the score itself. What I mean is: the previous DCEU films had lackluster numbers, yet still were successful. Will there be something extra at the box office beyond the critical success of _Wonder Woman_? Whatever it is, I can't see it being the disconnect we saw with _Batman vs. Superman_.


The box office looks very promising.




> The first bit of Wonder Woman box office is in, and the results are promising. T*o wit, the film opened in Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea and Indonesia starting on Tuesday* (taking advantage of the Chinese Dragon Boat Holidays) and the two-day total is now $6.3 million.
> 
> *In Taiwan, it scored the third-biggest Warner Bros./Time Warner Inc. opening day of all time, besting the likes of Dr. Strange, Batman v Superman, Suicide Squad, Thor, Man of Steel, Ant-Man Captain America and both Guardians of the Galaxy movies. It has earned $1.8m in two days. It opened with $601,000 on opening day on 83 screens in Hong Kong, scoring the fourth biggest-debut ever for a WB movie and coming in ahead of the likes of Deadpool, Suicide Squad, Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Man of Steel, Logan , Thor, Captain America and both Guardians movies. It has earned $829k in two days.
> 
> It opened on Wednesday (Cultural Day) in South Korea, where it earned $1.2 million on 800 screens and was again ahead of Doctor Strange, Thor, Captain America and the Guardians movies. Finally, it opened in Indonesia for a $803,000 opening day on 820 screens, which was the second-biggest debut ever for Warner Bros. behind only Batman v Superman. It was also ahead of all of the other related comparative superhero movies.*
> 
> *It opens in 55 markets this weekend, including China, the United Kingdom, Russia, Italy, Mexico and Brazil. And, of course, it opens tonight at 7:00 pm in a whole bunch of North American theaters*. Ill have the report for those Thursday results and hopefully the first day in China early tomorrow. Im sorry for the super-short post, but I have to dash for an early afternoon appointment.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Let's not lie to ourselves, it would be nice to see this movie shatter RT scores to shut up all the haters and fanboys. After all, RT is apparently some divine, omnipotent source of knowledge and influence and is always used to throw into DCEU fans faces.


Yeah, at this point, my interest in the RT score is pretty much entirely attributable to simple pride. I'd LOVE to be the guy who gets to wield RT as a weapon for once. That's really all it amounts to.




> I think it's typical that it's dropped 5% in one day, a greater ratio of negative reviews have been coming in as of late. And of the few I've browsed through, they come off as very whiny, stupid (the "mansplaining" one was horrid and shouldn't count), or as very MCU fanboyish. Just read through some of them if you don't believe me. And most of the negative reviews make comments about the run time.


Yeah, that "mansplaining" review was ridiculous. The fact that that reviewer is apparently one of RT's "Top Reviewers" speaks volumes about RT's standards. A reviewer's entire reason for disliking a Wonder Woman film that basically boils down to "Needs more misandry?" Give me a break! 

But yeah, this RT score will definitely see to it that Wonder Woman has very long legs. Even if Cars 3 and Transformers take a real bite out of her box office, a movie this popular can just stick around in theaters for such a long time that it still makes insane money even after the hype has died down for those other two movies.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

^^

Gahhh, I'm so excited to see this movie but still have about 48 hours to go. I think I'm going completely dark tomorrow.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

If WW does 100m+ domestic it'll be set for success.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

WB is actually expecting 65-70m domestic.

----------


## Triple J

> I wonder (no pun intended) how much of the movie's RT score will translate into ticket sales beyond the score itself. What I mean is: the previous DCEU films had lackluster numbers, yet still were successful. Will there be something extra at the box office beyond the critical success of _Wonder Woman_? Whatever it is, I can't see it being the disconnect we saw with _Batman vs. Superman_.


Well, RT seems to play a big role here - so we will have better numbers in US. I don't think it matters all that much outside US though.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> WB is actually expecting 65-70m domestic.


Keeping expectations low so they can blow them away. Everyone independent is saying $95-100 million (and those are usually a little conservative)

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Keeping expectations low so they can blow them away. Everyone independent is saying $95-100 million (and those are usually a little conservative)


Yup! That's definitely what it feels like.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'm going in guys. IM GOING IN. I love you.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> I'm going in guys. IM GOING IN. I love you.


Hope you like it! Tell us how it is (no spoilers please)!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Oh that new DC logo was so good! Way better than MARVEL's new crap logo for the MCU.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Oh that new DC logo was so good! Way better than MARVEL's new crap logo for the MCU.


I like Marvel's new logo. D:

----------


## Dominick1216

I'm praying that DC starts giving more news for their future films! Hopefully some release dates!

----------


## Flash Gordon

I am reading ZERO spoilers and going in cold on Saturday. I am dying from anticipation. I find Gal Gadot to be totally charming.

I'm still nervous since BvS really soured me, but screw it I'm excited.

----------


## Flash Gordon

I hope we will get dozens of Wonder Woman films and the added boost for the future AQUAMAN flicks.

----------


## Pohzee

WONDER WOMAN: Starring the superheroine that you payed to see, her sort-of boyfriend that you've probably heard of if you've read any comics, and... an unadvertised group of ragtag guys that nobody asked for?

I hope that I'm in the minority, but I liked this movie less than BvS (though I'm one of the weirdos who liked that movie.) *spoilers:*
Everything seemed a little too crowded. Dr. Poison was criminally underdeveloped, as was the German general, both of whom were just mustache twirling villians with no backstory or depth. Speaking of underdeveloped, who were those guys that Rogers recruited? Are they from the comics? They were all criminally one-note characters with little purpose in this story and no development or depth that damaged the atmosphere of the movie for comedic relief. The movie would've been better off without them.
*end of spoilers*

On the bright side, Gal Gadot is a wonderful Wonder Woman.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Alright so I just saw it. I thought it was pretty good, not blown away but satisfied. They got Diana's character down pretty well and it was great to see her character change and evolve through her ups and downs as she learned about "man's world". Gal showed a ton more range than I thought she could. 

My only complaint is that I was never surprised by much. The trailers weren't too revealing but they showed us a piece of basically every single setting. A scene would start and I'd go "oh right that's where this happens". The third act is the strongest all around. I'd say the background story and the climax are really strong but some of the middle journey felt flat or forced. 

The movie was evenly balanced between humor and seriousness. Light at some points, somber at others. Action was great and Gal's moves were amazing.

8/10. I like it less than MoS and BvS but it's not far behind and I'm satisfied. It's on par with most origin superhero movies IMO, better than most MCU films.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> WONDER WOMAN: Starring the superheroine that you payed to see, her sort-of boyfriend that you've probably heard of if you've read any comics, and... an unadvertised group of ragtag guys that nobody asked for?
> 
> I hope that I'm in the minority, but I liked this movie less than BvS (though I'm one of the weirdos who liked that movie.) Everything seemed a little too crowded. Dr. Poison was criminally underdeveloped, as was the German general, both of whom were just mustache twirling villians with no backstory or depth. Speaking of underdeveloped, who were those guys that Rogers recruited? Are they from the comics? They were all criminally one-note characters with little purpose in this story and no development or depth that damaged the atmosphere of the movie for comedic relief. The movie would've been better off without them.
> 
> On the bright side, Gal Gadot is a wonderful Wonder Woman.


The villains were definitely underdeveloped. I liked the ragtag group, but they also could have used an extra scene or two. I think they served different purposes that taught her different lessons so I wouldn't axe them.

----------


## Rogue Star

I liked it. It got the job done. I'm one of those who liked (not loved) BvS and I'd say this ranks lower than BvS in terms of enjoyment but it's probably the better film.

----------


## godisawesome

Wonder Woman- an expertly structured and executed film with a _strong_ take on what may be the unintentional theme of the DCEU: Humanity on Trial.

Seriously, this film is easily the cleanest and most elegantly directed film in this franchise thus far. I may still have a bit more of a soft spot for MOS, but considering I'm really not much of a Wonder Woman fan at all, I was comparatively blown away by this movie. Excellent acting from all parties, energetic and frentic action set pieces, gorgeous cinematography, and an efficient use of characters.

That efficiency is probably part of the make it or break it view you may have of the ensemble: all the characters have a purpose, sometimes one that defines their personality, which both arguably keeps the film focused strictly on Diana's journey and may make them seem less complex. A Scottish sniper struggling with the demons of war underneath a jovial exterior, a multi-lingual would-be-actor reduced by prejudice to spy work, a Native American smuggler finding freedom only on another war torn continent. All three of Trevor's companions are focused around exposing both humanity's flaws, crimes, virtues, and heroism when on screen. They're broad characterizations based around their purposes, but so are the villains. Huston's General is a glory seeking war monger with twisted patriotism allowing him to be the most rephrehensible human in the entire film, Dr. Poison is humanity at its most pathetic and pitiable, and Ares is wrapped up in a sentence he repeats from earlier in the film: "They're not worthy of you. Of us."

But that focus all build so to the theme. If you're going to make a comparison to TDK, you do so on theme, and how the film puts the spotlight on the twin questions of whether or not humanity is worth saving and whether or no tour heroes can have a positive effect. And that focus is arguably what puts it above the majority of superhero films.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I did like that Diana was, in a way, "tempted" to consider humanity unworthy in multiple ways. I feel it's important for a hero to be tempted to turn their back or condemn the monstrosity of humanity at some point. It was probably better received here than say, Superman in BvS because it was condensed and followed certain key points instead of being ever-present the whole movie.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

I just got out of seeing it myself. I'll try to be spoiler-free.

It is by far the best of the DCEU films and an overall great movie as well. Very rewatch-able. Not perfect, mind you, but very well-written and acted (especially by Gadot and Pine). I was a little underwhelmed with the quality of the special effects, but that may just be personal taste.

----------


## Robotman

> Alright so I just saw it. I thought it was pretty good, not blown away but satisfied. They got Diana's character down pretty well and it was great to see her character change and evolve through her ups and downs as she learned about "man's world". Gal showed a ton more range than I thought she could. 
> 
> My only complaint is that I was never surprised by much. The trailers weren't too revealing but they showed us a piece of basically every single setting. A scene would start and I'd go "oh right that's where this happens". The third act is the strongest all around. I'd say the background story and the climax are really strong but some of the middle journey felt flat or forced. 
> 
> The movie was evenly balanced between humor and seriousness. Light at some points, somber at others. Action was great and Gal's moves were amazing.
> 
> 8/10. I like it less than MoS and BvS but it's not far behind and I'm satisfied. It's on par with most origin superhero movies IMO, better than most MCU films.


Just watched it. I agree with most of what you said. It was very good but not great. A solid B. Overall an enjoyable movie. I think I got caught up in the early hype of this being "the best superhero movie in years". It was not. But still enjoyable. 

As you said I wasn't surprised by much. The movie went almost exactly as I expected. But I think this is what the DCEU needed. Something solid. It was very well directed and at times you forget your watching a superhero movie. It's a genre flick. Which is a compliment. It was a great war movie with good acting and some genuinely romantic scenes. It just shows how far the superhero movies have come since Superman: The Movie. 

Gal Gadot is simply charming. Her smile can light up the world. Chris Pine was excellent as well. Shades of Harrison Ford in his hay day. The supporting cast was fantastic as well.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

RT score at 93% with 179 reviews in.

I know intellectually the Rotten Tomatoes system of rating is faulty, but, as others have stated here, bragging rights are bragging rights.  :Smile:

----------


## Rogue Star

If I had a choice between seeing Justice League or Wonder Woman 2, I'd chose Wonder Woman 2 without a second thought.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I just got out of seeing it myself. I'll try to be spoiler-free.
> 
> It is by far the best of the DCEU films and an overall great movie as well. Very rewatch-able. Not perfect, mind you, but very well-written and acted (especially by Gadot and Pine). I was a little underwhelmed with the quality of the special effects, but that may just be personal taste.


I agree with the special effects being a little disappointing. I've made this point many times before, if it's possible to do something without CG let's get back to doing that. It didn't really factor in though until the final act.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> RT score at 93% with 179 reviews in.
> 
> I know intellectually the Rotten Tomatoes system of rating is faulty, but, as others have stated here, bragging rights are bragging rights.


I don't think its faulty, it just is what it is. People often misunderstand it as a 93/100, which is just foolish.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I don't think its faulty, it just is what it is. People often misunderstand it as a 93/100, which is just foolish.


It is faulty. Like how a lot of 6.5 or C grade  reviews for BvS were rated as "rotten". While Age of Ultron and Thor TDW had similar reviews that were rated as "fresh".

Or Ghostbusters 2016, which has 59% of top critics saying the movie is good but 59% is not 60. Somehow, GB 2016 is still Certified Fresh on RT.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't think its faulty, it just is what it is. People often misunderstand it as a 93/100, which is just foolish.


I stand corrected. As someone who is proficient regarding statistical analysis, I should have said that the evaluation of the RT scores is what is at fault.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

If you want more "granular" scores go to Metacritic instead of RT, as they try to give each review a score of 0-100. On MC right now Wonder Woman is at 76, BvS was a 44, GotG 63, Man of Steel 55

----------


## darkseidpwns

> It is faulty. Like how a lot of 6.5 or C grade  reviews for BvS were rated as "rotten". While Age of Ultron and Thor TDW had similar reviews that were rated as "fresh".
> 
> Or Ghostbusters 2016, which has 59% of top critics saying the movie is good but 59% is not 60. Somehow, GB 2016 is still Certified Fresh on RT.


The rotten feature is separate from the score.

----------


## Troian

> I don't think its faulty, it just is what it is. People often misunderstand it as a 93/100, which is just foolish.


I hardly use or check those online movie review sites. I try to make my own opinions.
But I assume the 93 percent just means that 93 percent of the reviews were fresh/good? 

Honestly.. I'd rather use a out of 10 system tbh.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I liked it. It got the job done. I'm one of those who liked (not loved) BvS and I'd say this ranks lower than BvS in terms of enjoyment but it's probably the better film.


I'm not even a particularly big Wonder Woman fan.  I definitely think it is the better film and more re-watchable than the BvS extended cut (which I liked a lot.)  While there were no surprises the script was just cleaner... and I really think the cinematography on Wonder Woman is much better.  It goes a long way... as does the absence of a character that I found  difficult to watch.

Now I will be anxiously awaiting the next JL trailer and hope that JL is the film that we all hope it should be.  It SHOULD be the best of the DCEU.  Then again should've... sometimes leads to wasn't.  Hopefully not...

----------


## The Kid

This was a pretty solid movie and easily the best of the DCEU so far IMO

Gadot really carried this movie. She was hands down the MVP of the movie and was charming and charismatic has hell. And she had incredible chemistry with Pine who made me actually like Trevor for the first time ever. I hope they can find a way to bring him back to the sequel. There were some flaws in the movie as well. The third act was pretty weak and I found the CGI to be pretty iffy and the slow-mo to be a little to abused. That being said, Wonder Woman actually took a note from some of the MCU movies in that a charming, likeable lead tends to make up for other flaws a movie and I felt like that was the case here. It was still a very good movie overall. I'd give it between a 8.5/10

----------


## Rogue Star

> This was a pretty solid movie and easily the best of the DCEU so far IMO
> 
> Gadot really carried this movie. She was hands down the MVP of the movie and was charming and charismatic has hell. And she had incredible chemistry with Pine who made me actually like Trevor for the first time ever. I hope they can find a way to bring him back to the sequel. There were some flaws in the movie as well. The third act was pretty weak and I found the CGI to be pretty iffy and the slow-mo to be a little to abused. That being said, Wonder Woman actually took a note from some of the MCU movies in that a charming, likeable lead tends to make up for other flaws a movie and I felt like that was the case here. It was still a very good movie overall. I'd give it between a 8.5/10


I don't know if she was the MVP of the movie but of the DCEU entirely, most definitely. I'd even say she is the most heroic of all the DCEU superheroes so far. She will do what she believes is right, fighting for those who can't fight for themselves, consequences be damned.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I hardly use or check those online movie review sites. I try to make my own opinions.
> But I assume the 93 percent just means that 93 percent of the reviews were fresh/good? 
> 
> Honestly.. I'd rather use a out of 10 system tbh.


Exactly, and it isn't even good, seems to be more like "decent". 

I think the only flaw of RT is that it potentially influences "safe" movies. Better to have a majority like your movie than a minority love it, if RT scores = higher profits.

----------


## Punisher007

When you invest hundreds of millions of dollars into each of these films, I can understand that notion to a point at least.  Its called the movie BUSINESS for a reason, you want to get your investment back.

----------


## Triple J

> I don't know if she was the MVP of the movie but of the DCEU entirely, most definitely. I'd even say she is the most heroic of all the DCEU superheroes so far. She will do what she believes is right, fighting for those who can't fight for themselves, consequences be damned.


Oh, that's a little disheartening to hear. I found DCEU amazing because the heroes were questioning themselves, realizing that the world isn't so black and white. Well, I guess I will have to wait till Saturday.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> When you invest hundreds of millions of dollars into each of these films, I can understand that notion to a point at least.  Its called the movie BUSINESS for a reason, you want to get your investment back.


Yeah, and for that reason I don't think RT is making that many waves. 

Big studios don't need anybody telling them to be risk averse, since thats kind of where they are already.

----------


## Robotman

> Oh, that's a little disheartening to hear. I found DCEU amazing because the heroes were questioning themselves, realizing that the world isn't so black and white. Well, I guess I will have to wait till Saturday.


The movie actually does a very good job with this subject. But you'll have to judge for yourself.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Oh, that's a little disheartening to hear. I found DCEU amazing because the heroes were questioning themselves, realizing that the world isn't so black and white. Well, I guess I will have to wait till Saturday.


Diana faced those questions. I'm sure you'll be satisfied with how she responds at the end. I think the also left some vagueness there because Justice League is still yet to be released. But I got the impression that she... Well, I'll stop there.  :Smile:

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Exactly, and it isn't even good, seems to be more like "decent".


Uh, it is good. Very good. Unlike the past two installments of the DCEU, it actually tells a coherent story and isn't jumping all over the place trying to figure out what it is. My only complaint was the CGI in some areas. Well, that wasn't my ONLY complaint, but I don't want to get spoiler-y.

----------


## The Kid

In other news, now that Ayer is apparently directing a Scarface reboot (why????), I hope WB gets someone else to tackle Gotham City Sirens. I'd prefer if Ayer wasn't directing it

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Uh, it is good. Very good. Unlike the past two installments of the DCEU, it actually tells a coherent story and isn't jumping all over the place trying to figure out what it is. My only complaint was the CGI in some areas. Well, that wasn't my ONLY complaint, but I don't want to get spoiler-y.


Was talking about the bar for a "fresh" review on RT, not WW specifically.

----------


## Dominick1216

Is it known yet how much money the film made at the box office last night?

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Is it known yet how much money the film made at the box office last night?


$11 million in the U.S. for Thursday night.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Was talking about the bar for a "fresh" review on RT, not WW specifically.


Ooooohhhhh. I apologize for misunderstanding then.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Man, I am itching at the bit to see WW again! Not counting the CBMs that transcended the genre (BB, TDK & Logan maybe SM2) WW is definitely up there as one of my all time favourites.

----------


## Ceebiro

Yeah. The more I think about this film, the more I enjoy it. Then again, I really enjoyed The First Avenger as well.

I wish they could reboot the DCEU from this film, but they're in too deep with the League for that to happen.

----------


## Ceebiro

> Oh, that's a little disheartening to hear. I found DCEU amazing because the heroes were questioning themselves, realizing that the world isn't so black and white. Well, I guess I will have to wait till Saturday.


This is actually touched on specifically within the film.

----------


## Ceebiro

> If I had a choice between seeing Justice League or Wonder Woman 2, I'd chose Wonder Woman 2 without a second thought.


I concur with this, just like I thought we should have gotten MOS2 before BvS, but what do I know.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Oh, that's a little disheartening to hear. I found DCEU amazing because the heroes were questioning themselves, realizing that the world isn't so black and white. Well, I guess I will have to wait till Saturday.


That's definitely still a big part of it, don't feel disheartened. 

This film is pretty much an extension of the DCEU, it feels like it is part of the world Snyder built.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> RT score at 93% with 179 reviews in.


Same score still, but now with 187 reviews. 

Man, how many heads will explode if this becomes the #1 superhero film on that site?

----------


## Rogue Star

> Yeah. The more I think about this film, the more I enjoy it. Then again, I really enjoyed The First Avenger as well.
> 
> I wish they could reboot the DCEU from this film, but they're in too deep with the League for that to happen.


The First Avenger was very much a comic book movie throughout. Wonder Woman was more of a world war I movie with comic book elements in it to varying degrees. I like them both but they're really two different types of movies. It's hard to compare them, yet I still see attempts to.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I liked Wonder Woman better than the First Avenger because her backstory was more compelling, her views actually evolve and get challenged, and she sees the cost of war in a way that Captain America never did. His involvement in the war was basically summed up by a montage. We didn't see him inspiring civilians or soldiers in the same dramatic way and his supporting cast wasn't as personally invested in the conflict. But even with that the bits with the Amazons and the inclusion of Ares made it more comic book like than First Avenger ever was.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

I'm just so happy that the DCEU finally has a win under its belt. Did I think Wonder Woman was the perfect CBM? No. That honor in my mind still goes to the Dark Knight. But it was a rousingly good time and a very good movie all around. And its great to see that DC can in fact still make a good movie about a character OTHER than Batman. I love Batman, but he can't be the only one DC ever promotes.

I'm also excited what this means for future characters. Finally! People will no longer look at DC and think Batman and Superman are all they have to offer.

----------


## ekrolo2

> I liked Wonder Woman better than the First Avenger because her backstory was more compelling, her views actually evolve and get challenged, and she sees the cost of war in a way that Captain America never did. His involvement in the war was basically summed up by a montage. We didn't see him inspiring civilians or soldiers in the same dramatic way and his supporting cast wasn't as personally invested in the conflict. But even with that the bits with the Amazons and the inclusion of Ares made it more comic book like than First Avenger ever was.


Diana's "Howling Commandos" were a lot better than the actual Howling Commandos for me :P

In the short time span they were there, they left a really good impression and fed the whole theme of mankind's various complexities. Like Chief acknowledging what Steve's people, the American's did to his and them being comrades in arms regardless of their people's... sorted past.

----------


## Triple J

> Diana faced those questions. I'm sure you'll be satisfied with how she responds at the end. I think the also left some vagueness there because Justice League is still yet to be released. But I got the impression that she... Well, I'll stop there.





> That's definitely still a big part of it, don't feel disheartened. 
> 
> This film is pretty much an extension of the DCEU, it feels like it is part of the world Snyder built.


Alright, great.

Here's another I am hoping for: to JL trailer on the big screen  :Big Grin:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Diana's "Howling Commandos" were a lot better than the actual Howling Commandos for me :P
> 
> In the short time span they were there, they left a really good impression and fed the whole theme of mankind's various complexities. Like Chief acknowledging what Steve's people, the American's did to his and them being comrades in arms regardless of their people's... sorted past.


Yeah that was important for her to learn. I think we're entering spoiler territory now though.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Same score still, but now with 187 reviews. 
> 
> Man, how many heads will explode if this becomes the #1 superhero film on that site?


Now 94% with 233 reviews. Same % as TDK but lower average rating.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Now 94% with 233 reviews. Same % as TDK but lower average rating.


Thanks for the update, Baggie.  :Smile:

----------


## LifeIsILL

There are some idiots on comicvine.

Some of them truly believe that the only reason this movie is getting high scores is because it's a female director and female superhero.

CBR is still the best comic forum on the web.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There are some idiots on comicvine.
> 
> Some of them truly believe that the only reason this movie is getting high scores is because it's a female director and female superhero.


Wow! So all you have to do to get an excellent RT score is have both a female director and superhero from now on.  :Wink:  

Yes, that is fairly stupid.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Patty's use of musical scores was also pretty effective. Honestly I am more and more impressed by Patty the more I think of the movie.




> There are some idiots on comicvine.
> 
> Some of them truly believe that the only reason this movie is getting high scores is because it's a female director and female superhero.
> 
> CBR is still the best comic forum on the web.


Sigh, I knew comments like this would eventually happen did any of them actually see the movie? If one saw the movie there is no denying it is well directed, well written and well acted.

----------


## Badou

> There are some idiots on comicvine.
> 
> Some of them truly believe that the only reason this movie is getting high scores is because it's a female director and female superhero.


That being the ONLY reason I think is really dumb, but I do believe it plays a factor. I think a lot of reviewers were going to give the movie a positive review because they didn't want the first modern big female lead superhero movie, with a female director at the helm as well, to fail. We saw this with Ghostbusters when they were willing to give a bad movie a positive review because they didn't want the movie to fail. 

I don't think the movie is on the level of TDK, so its review score feels a bit inflated, but the important parts they got right and the movie is good. DC finally has a good movie under its belt. They got Wonder Woman's character right and the audience has accepted it, which is something the new Superman has failed to do and why I feel there is still so much negativity surrounding his character in the movies.

----------


## Rogue Star

So is Trevor the most interesting comic book / superhero movie love interest now? I think so. Too bad it had to be a male to claim that title. Lol.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

What do you guys think about this.

2018: Aquaman and another smaller DCEU film maybe
2019: Batman, MoS2, WW2
2020: JL2 and Flash
2021: GLC, SS2, Gotham City Sirens/Batgirl

----------


## Lightning Rider

> What do you guys think about this.
> 
> 2018: Aquaman and another smaller DCEU film maybe
> 2019: Batman, MoS2, WW2
> 2020: JL2 and Flash
> 2021: GLC, SS2, Gotham City Sirens/Batgirl


Would prefer a GL movie in 2020 but it's a solid list.

----------


## Rogue Star

> What do you guys think about this.
> 
> 2018: Aquaman and another smaller DCEU film maybe
> 2019: Batman, MoS2, WW2
> 2020: JL2 and Flash
> 2021: GLC, SS2, Gotham City Sirens/Batgirl


Where are Nightwing and Cyborg?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Where are Nightwing and Cyborg?


I'd put Shazam before those two.

----------


## The Kid

> What do you guys think about this.
> 
> 2018: Aquaman and another smaller DCEU film maybe
> 2019: Batman, MoS2, WW2
> 2020: JL2 and Flash
> 2021: GLC, SS2, Gotham City Sirens/Batgirl


I think Batgirl and Sirens are both ahead in development than Flash and Justice League 2. Also don't think another DCEU film gets released in 2018 and we still have yet to hear anything from a potential Superman solo

I think right now:

2018: Aquman
2019: Batman and WW2
2020: Batgirl and Gotham City Sirens

Until we get positive development on the Flash and the others, I won't slot them yet because it's too hard to say

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'd put Shazam before those two.


Shazam is the New Line thing so in my head I am treating that as separate. 




> Where are Nightwing and Cyborg?


Nightwing was announced? LOL I can't keep up! Cyborg let's be real that ain't gonna happen. 




> Would prefer a GL movie in 2020 but it's a solid list.


My reasoning for pushing GL back is if it will need a budget on par with JL so can't see that happening while JL is in the same year and my reasoning to push JL back is so we can have the Trinity solo's all in one year!

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing was announced? LOL I can't keep up! Cyborg let's be real that ain't gonna happen.


Nightwing was announced before Batgirl was with a director and writer already attached. The Lego Batman director is directing it.

----------


## Rogue Star

Yeah, Nightwing is happening, yo.

----------


## The Kid

Nightwing was announced but I will continue to remain skeptical until we actually hear news about it. A bunch of movies have been connected to directors. Batgirl and Batman are the ones that are most likely to get done soon. That's not including the Wonder Woman sequel

----------


## Troian

> There are some idiots on comicvine.
> 
> Some of them truly believe that the only reason this movie is getting high scores is because it's a female director and female superhero.
> 
> CBR is still the best comic forum on the web.


Funny on the WW forum in cv there was a thread from several ex cbr users who were trashing the site and several ex cbr users agreed that CV was superior. Though that site is dead now tbh and personal preference I guess.

----------


## LordTrump

> Funny on the WW forum in cv there was a thread from several ex cbr users who were trashing the site and several ex cbr users agreed that CV was superior. Though that site is dead now tbh and personal preference I guess.


When did Comicvine start dying?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So is Trevor the most interesting comic book / superhero movie love interest now? I think so. Too bad it had to be a male to claim that title. Lol.


Kinda funny, seeing as people who ship WW with others (cough Superman/Wonder Woman shippers) love to bash Trevor. I'm glad that he's being received well.

----------


## Troian

> When did Comicvine start dying?


Well the qualities gone down. Katz whatever his name was is no longer the admin. Many of the old mods have left or are no longer mods. We no longer have character of the month last I checked and article quality for previews have gone downhill and god knows when the last good quality and i depth review of a cbm was. I remembered back a few years ago cbms and even animated shows/movies were reviewed fairly frequently. 

Just saw WW, it was exceuted well and a good flick but it was a fairly generic origin story. Don't know if this is a spoiler but it has a lot of similarities with Doctor Strange's origin movie if you really think about it.

----------


## The Kid

> Kinda funny, seeing as people who ship WW with others (cough Superman/Wonder Woman shippers) love to bash Trevor. I'm glad that he's being received well.


Lol I'm curious for some of the more 'passionate' ones' reactions to this movie. Because Pine straight up killed it in the role. Him and Gadot just made Trevor/Diana shoot up in my list of favorite DC couples despite never caring much for it in the past




> Well the qualities gone down. Katz whatever his name was is no longer the admin. Many of the old mods have left or are no longer mods. We no longer have character of the month last I checked and article quality for previews have gone downhill and god knows when the last good quality and i depth review of a cbm was. I remembered back a few years ago cbms and even animated shows/movies were reviewed fairly frequently. 
> 
> Just saw WW, it was exceuted well and a good flick but it was a fairly generic origin story. Don't know if this is a spoiler but it has a lot of similarities with Doctor Strange's origin movie if you really think about it.


I actually just saw Doctor Strange again on Netflix again and agree a bit! Doctor Strange is probably my second favorite MCU origin movie so it was not a bad picture for Wonder Woman to be similar to. WW also kinda felt like a mash of Cap: TFA and Thor except I preferred it to both movies. I hope the sequel is as good as Winter Soldier now!

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Lol I'm curious for some of the more 'passionate' ones' reactions to this movie. Because Pine straight up killed it in the role. Him and Gadot just made Trevor/Diana shoot up in my list of favorite DC couples despite never caring much for it in the past
> 
> 
> 
> I actually just saw Doctor Strange again on Netflix again and agree a bit! Doctor Strange is probably my second favorite MCU origin movie so it was not a bad picture for Wonder Woman to be similar to. WW also kinda felt like a mash of Cap: TFA and Thor except I preferred it to both movies. I hope the sequel is as good as Winter Soldier now!


I think he'll absolutely return, I'd be amazed if they decided to move on without him.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

Depending upon how well the meathead bruiser version of the character is received in Justice League, I think Aquaman is already on track. I don't see it getting delayed again. Given Wan's track record and Johns's affinity for the character, I think this one is going to be a pretty solid movie.  

The Batman is just waiting on Matt Reeves to finish press for Planet of the Apes. Once that's done. He's fully on board for that movie, depending on Ben Affleck's condition. I can even see them recasting the part if he wants out. Batgirl is in the same boat. As soon as Whedon gets done with Justice League, I think he'll be able to get Batgirl up and running within a year or so.

I suspect The Flash will take a few more years. Ezra Miller's schedule is pretty jam-packed. However, if they don't use him soon, they'll have to renegotiate his contract because it'll expire, right? Honestly, I would rather they wait until the TV show is winding down anyway.

Goyer and Rhodes are currently writing the GLC script. Depending upon how good that turns, it could still make 2020 or earlier. However, given how badly burned Johns was by the failure of the first film, I can see him taking extra care to make sure this movie works 100% before asking for a green light. 

I think Ayer is keen to redeem himself after the critical beating Suicide Squad took and will make Gotham City Sirens a priority, as will the studio given how much money Suicide Squad made and, more importantly, how much merch it sold. The possibility of selling even more of that to budding Catwoman and Poison Ivy Hot Topic fans will be very enticing to the money men. I would guess we'll also see that by 2020 or earlier. He's not going to rush it though. The tight deadlines were part of what made Suicide Squad's script such as mess in the first place.

I think Superman is absolutely a priority for Geoff Johns right now, too. Again, a lot depends on how well the reborn Superman is received in Justice League. If they do manage to course correct from Man of Steel and BvS's missteps, I can see them going full steam ahead on this as soon as possible. I think they've got something to prove with this one.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Snyder imo tainted Supes so bad he needs a dedicated fan to fix his movies. MoS was alright and shown how new Superman was to his job but BvS...ugh. After reading Byrne run I want a portrayal on that.

Ayer needs to gtfo the DCEU. After SS I wouldn't even look at Ayer.

The Batman family movies can be something big but they gotta play their cards right. 

Aquaman looking promising as hell. I'm ready for some Aquaman and Mera action. Hopefully we can get some Jackson/Kaldur tease.

Flash is in development crisis.

I also just saw Wonder Woman and I liked it alot. It had passion in it and this was the first time I liked Steve Trevor.

----------


## The Kid

> Snyder imo tainted Supes so bad he needs a dedicated fan to fix his movies. MoS was alright and shown how new Superman was to his job but BvS...ugh. After reading Byrne run I want a portrayal on that.
> 
> Ayer needs to gtfo the DCEU. After SS I wouldn't even look at Ayer.
> 
> The Batman family movies can be something big but they gotta play their cards right. 
> 
> Aquaman looking promising as hell. I'm ready for some Aquaman and Mera action. Hopefully we can get some Jackson/Kaldur tease.
> 
> Flash is in development crisis.
> ...


I agree about Ayer. I think the Sirens are a brilliant property to adapt but I don't think he's the right guy for the job. Also with Batman, I'm of the belief that if he's planning on jumping ship soon, it's best to recast as early as possible. Probably for the solo movie itself. Id like it to be someone in their mid 30s who can play the role for a long time

----------


## LordTrump

> I agree about Ayer. I think the Sirens are a brilliant property to adapt but I don't think he's the right guy for the job. Also with Batman, I'm of the belief that if he's planning on jumping ship soon, it's best to recast as early as possible. Probably for the solo movie itself. Id like it to be someone in their mid 30s who can play the role for a long time


Y do u think he'll jump ship

----------


## The Kid

> Y do u think he'll jump ship


There have been rumors + the guy will be 46 in 'The Batman' when it comes out. Odds are the solo movie will be the last Batman movie he does anyway so if that's the case, I'd rather them just switch asap

----------


## Vanguard-01

I. Loved. EVERYTHING!!!!  

It was a heck of a wait, but it was more than worth it! 

Where do I start? 

Gal was incredible and showed such great range. We finally have a worthy successor to Lynda Carter, people! 

Themiscyra? Amazing! So good! The Amazons were done very, very well. The only thing that could've made them better is if they had their advanced science. Antiope was great. Hippolyta? DEFINITELY want more of her! She was amazing! 

Steve? Holy crap! That's the best acting I've ever seen out of Chris Pine, and this Steve Trevor is officially my favorite version of the character EVER. He was funny, he was just as much of a fish-out-of-water around Diana as Diana was around his world, he was brave and confident when faced with a situation he could actually handle. He and Diana are a great example of how men and women can and should work together.

The villains? Yeah, I'll confess, I would've liked to see more development for them. Especially Dr. Poison. But they absolutely oozed villainy and they still managed to seem credibly evil.

The final battle? I don't know what people were complaining about. Looked fine to me, and Diana's powers were glorious to behold. 

Steve's team? Loved them! Would've loved to get more from them, but they managed to be memorable and enjoyable nonetheless. 

The message? Holy crap! That was EVERYTHING Diana's philosophy is supposed to embody. "Only love can save the world?" Perfection! 

Diana's powers? Awesome! I think I have a theory about how they work. It seemed like they got stronger every time Diana actually had something motivating her. That's why she didn't develop her powers too much on Themiscyra. None of her loved ones were ever threatened. She never had a cause to fight for. Hence? Her powers, much like an under-used muscle, simply hadn't developed. So, her powers kind of work like Achilles' powers in the Simone run: they're fueled by Diana's conviction. She needs to BELIEVE in what she's doing. She needs to have something to fight for. And she needs to fully commit to the situation.

Bright colors? Good, effective humor? A tight script and a straightforward story? This baby's got it all, kids. It deserves every bit of the praise it's getting.

----------


## Punisher007

Ayer isn't writing the script this time though, he's simply directing it.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

My guess is: 

2018: 

The Batman (wishful thinking I know, but if they speed track it I could see this still making a July 2018 release date) 

Aquaman 

2019: 

Man of Steel 2 

Batgirl 

Suicide Squad 2 

2020: 

The Flash

Wonder Woman 2 

Gotham City Sirens 

2021: 

Green Lantern Corps 

Justice League 2 

Batman Sequel??? 

At least one new franchise every year with three movies coming out starting in 2019 onward with one Batman related movie each year

Black Adam's solo movie probably won't happen. I think he'll just end up being the MoS 2 villain. Shazam and Cyborg seem to be canned as well, but if I had to guess will still _be_ in the DCEU, just as part as supporting characters in the Man of Steel sequel and Flash movie respectively. If they're popular talk of their solo movies might come up again. 

Green Lantern's solo movie will be pushed to 2021 along with The Justice League sequel.

----------


## The Kid

Reeves is still focused on Apes right now so I don't even think he's started pre production for Batman. I think 2018 would be almost impossible for him

----------


## darkseidpwns

I see Aquaman, Batman and Batgirl in the next 2 years, maybe Sirens. Everything else is going to happen 2020 and onwards.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> I see Aquaman, Batman and Batgirl in the next 2 years, maybe Sirens. Everything else is going to happen 2020 and onwards.


Three Batman movies all at once? I feel like DC would want to spread them all out a little bit.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Three Batman movies all at once? I feel like DC would want to spread them all out a little bit.


I dont see it as that, I see Batman and a Joss Whedon film. Sirens though might take punishment if they dont play their cards straight.

----------


## nightbird

Moments when they showcased war was the strongest in the movie. I loved every moment, when Diana saw how terrible war can be. Villains not the most complex, but their motivations were clear and simple to understand.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> I dont see it as that, I see Batman and a Joss Whedon film. Sirens though might take punishment if they dont play their cards straight.


If you look at like that I can see your point. Warner Bros. would probably want to fast track Batman because he's so iconic and Batgirl because of Whedon, but Flash a Man of Steel sequel, and probably a Wonder Woman one too are likely also priorities too. I can see at least one or two of those also coming around in 2019 or so.

----------


## Steven Kaye

Wonder Woman was very good, indeed. Not as good as Man of Steel - still my favourite DCEU film - but still superbly cast and executed. And Gal was born to play Diana.

----------


## Punisher007

I like MOS and think that it gets too much hate from some.  But WW was better than MOS by a considerable margin imo.

----------


## Steven Kaye

> I like MOS and think that it gets too much hate from some.  But WW was better than MOS by a considerable margin imo.


I prefer Man of Steel for its boldness - while Wonder Woman was a bit too formulaic, Snyder's film was like a sci-fi art film masquerading as a superhero adventure; and while Jenkins overdid the slow motion, Snyder's action sequences were incredibly kinetic.

----------


## Punisher007

WW is a more consistent film imo, which counts for a lot.  And I was more drawn to Diana as a protagonist than I was to Clark.  But on the flip side, MOS had a better villain imo.

So it's basically WW as #1 and MOS as a solid #2 for me.  They are certainly far above BVS and SS imo.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I dont see it as that, I see Batman and a Joss Whedon film. Sirens though might take punishment if they dont play their cards straight.


I see it as movies need to be spread out more otherwise there are just too much and it gets a bit much.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

Wonder Woman was so good. Please WB, please don't let JL undo all this good will.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Wonder Woman was so good. Please WB, please don't let JL undo all this good will.


I think they won't. Joss will clean up a few things from Zack and also I think they have learned their lesson from BvS

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Snyder shared a new image of Gal as WW:

----------


## MosSuperman

> I think they won't. Joss will clean up a few things from Zack and also I think they have learned their lesson from BvS


If JL turns out to be good, I wonder if people will say its because of Whedon and if it's bad the blame will pobably fall on Snyder. Kind of dumb.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

What a truly fabulous movie. My hat is off to Patty Jenkins, firstly, and Zack Snyder secondly. 

A great story from the beginning. Well structured, great origin time on the screen. Acting was superb on everyone's part. 
Gal Gadot did WONDERful as Diana and Chris Pine simply knocked his role out of the park (remember when he admitted to not reading any comics and only stuck to the script, and some people complained about that?). They had great chemistry and were going 100% throughout the entire time. Beautiful movie overall, and definitely one of THE BEST superhero/comic origin movies ever. I'm torn right now where this lands with Man of Steel and Batman v Superman (both great films in their own right, in my opinion. I think for now it's #1, followed by a very close tie at #2 for Man of Steel and BvS. Suicide Squad is a distant third… I recommend this film. It's very inspirational and explores deep emotional valleys that WWI exhibited. This was a film with character, not a generic, bland flick that follows a safe formula. The humor was very natural in this movie and was just right. There wasn't too much, nor too little. 

SPOILER talk: 

*spoilers:*

Keeping it brief for now, my two (only two) big complaints: 

CGI was rough in more than a few scenes throughout the movie.
Ares wasn't fleshed out *quite* as much as I would have hoped. 

I loved Ares at the end, and thought he was fairly formidable. I think we should and WILL see more of him in the future (he should be the archnemesis throughout a Gal Gadot solo trilogy while she battles others like Cheetah. David Thewlis and the mustache were a little distracting, but he did good. They did great on his appearance, armor, and swords. 
Also, god bless Steve Trevor… May he rest in peace. I hope they don't try to bring him back 100 years later somehow. They should just leave that be. It was very gripping and I personally thought when that plane blew up that was the moment Diana was referring to in BvS about walking away from man. 

Anyway, excellent movie. Day one purchase on BR, it's a very re-watchable movie. 

*end of spoilers*

----------


## nightrider

> If JL turns out to be good, I wonder if people will say its because of Whedon and if it's bad the blame will pobably fall on Snyder. Kind of dumb.


100% that'll happen. Nobody gives snyder credit for anything.

----------


## Triple J

Just got out of WW - loved it. An awesome origin story. I wasn't satisfied though. No matter what you think of MOS and BvS quality wise, you can't disagree that they were ambitious. To me, WW felt like it wasn't ambitious enough, at times they were playing it too safe. But, then again I understand why they did it.

I usually like things (movies or whatever it is) that attempt ambitious goals, even if they fail. I prefer those over succeeding while playing it safe. But, all things considered, I rate WW a solid 8 out of 10. Now, onto spoiler territory.

*spoilers:*


This probably had to do with the length of the film, but I would have loved to see more of the backstory of Steve's team. I felt as if they didn't spend enough time there.

They got Robin Wright for Antiope - thought her role was also a bit too short. Ares was sort of underwhelming...so was General and Dr. Poison. Here's hoping Ares comes back for future films. It sort of reminded me of Marvel movies in that aspect - weaker villains. Fight scenes were mixed bag, I heard some folks claiming that fights were the best in DCEU so far. That I disagree with, nothing beats Smallville fight scenes, but No Man's Land scenes were awesome!

They did have the balls to kill off Steve, rather than keep him alive..so good job DC! Not entirely playing it safe  :Big Grin: 

Comparing Diana to Clark and Bruce, she definitely seems to be the more idealistic...and I liked the journey overall. I think I will have to watch it again.

As far as performances go - they all knocked it out of the part. I was hoping for a bit more at the end - tying to JL. I was expecting a boom tube to open, when she suits up at the end. That would have been a neat easter egg  :Big Grin: 

Soundtrack was also amazing.

I am going to let it marinate for a bit...maybe add more thoughts later!

Ah, I wish they had played JL trailer before the movie. Would have loved to see it on the big screen.

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Troian

I wish Snyder and Jenkins could have co directed. The Ww movie showed Jenkins weak points, the fight scenes, especially the messy final cgi fight. But her talking scenes were pretty good. 

Snyder has awesome cgi fights but has convoluted story telling. I think they could have balanced each other out but alas here we are. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes and gives a straight forward, meaningful story.

----------


## Bukdiah

I'm not trying to start shit here, but I have no idea how Wonder Woman got all the hype that it did. My knowledge of Wonder Woman is short and begins with New 52 through Rebirth basically. With that being said, I thought Gal Gadot did a solid job with her limited skills and the Wonder Woman character's portrayal was really good (they harp on her desire for truth, conquering shit with love, etc). The character was well adapted from the source. With that being said, wow, I thought it was pretty boring.

*spoilers:*

A few points here and some funny observations my friends and I had while watching:

The call to adventure took a long ass time to happen (Steve Trevor's plane crashing). Scenes prior to that in Themyscira dragged on and was so slow paced. The movie really felt like 2.5 hours. I had a few people sleeping in my theater. 

I don't mind them spending time in Themyscira, but I wish they did more world building (is that the right term?) while there. The only thing the audience was informed/shown about the island was that the inhabitants were Amazonians, liked to train a lot, but don't fight if they don't have to, and it's form of government was a monarchy. The rest was explained with an exposition heavy, reading of a book by Hippolyta to a child Diana of the island's history. I didn't like this method in Suicide Squad, so I hated it in this movie too.

They didn't give us the games/contest which would've given some insight to the Amazon's culture as well as have Diana earn her gear. Instead, she steals it like a thief.

Stuff finally happens in London, but we gotta endure a cliche scene of her trying on clothes...

Steve Trevor's rag tag group was so unnecessary. With the exception of his actor friend, no one showcased their skills. They had a Scotsman that was heralded as a deadeye shooter, but doesn't do shit on the battlefield with it. Instead, he gets PTSD and is rendered useless. His backstory was also conveniently explained by Steve Trevor at a campfire by saying, "He sees ghosts." They also had a character named Chief that was stereotypical Native American lol. I guess he was supposed to be a masterful tracker, but he never really showed it unless you wanna count making a smoke signal as something of note.

The action was pretty bad. With the exception of the scene in France, everything else was riddled with the awful fast motion, to slow motion, to fast motion again. Multiply that by 100 and that's basically all the scenes. The CGI is also pretty rough during the scenes at times too, but they do a good job at making the camera farther out to hide it. WW also does butterfly kicks and cartwheels for no damn reason like ROy Harper in the Arrow show lol.

The climatic battle with Ares was butt too. Instead of giving us some great hand to hand combat with swordplay, we get a one sided ass whupping with Ares using force pushes and telekinesis. Then we have Wonder Woman shooting freaking beams of energy and creating explosive energy from her body? I'm not sure if it's a WW ability, so I apologize if that is accurate.

The villains were underwhelming. I liked how they made Dr. Poison the creator of the Mustard Gas, but she was barely utilized or fleshed out. The German General guy was bland as hell too.

Funny stuff:

Diana had a LONG ASS daydream lol. I thought she was typing out the story to Bruce during the movie, but I was wrong. When the movie ends, she puts the picture down and just sends him an Email saying "Thanks for bringing him back to me" lmao.

Did any of you laugh at the funny editing during the Ares and Wonder Woman scene at the watch tower? We see WW trying to grab her Godkiller sword but realizes it's not there. Then we get a shot of Trevor and the gang doing shit. They cut back to WW dropping from the sky with her sword holstered. Ares had to have been talking to WW the whole time, watch her leave to grab her stuff, and was like, "Well, ok then" lol. An audible WTF was heard in my theater.

I like how everyone in Themyscira has a sort of English accent, but when Diana speaks she has a different one because Gal Gadot is Israeli in real life lol.

*end of spoilers*

Anyways, that was a lot of stuff, so thanks for reading if you did.

----------


## Punisher007

It's an origin story, they're allowed to play it safe.  Especially since it's taken them so long to finally get this movie made.  They had a lot of ground to cover, so not overcomplicating things was a good move imo.

And I've heard pretty much no one else call it "boring."

And honestly, I have to kind of just shake my head when some people go "I have no idea why this is popular."  Really?  Because even if I don't personally care for a movie, I can still usually see why other people like it.

----------


## Punisher007

> I wish Snyder and Jenkins could have co directed. The Ww movie showed Jenkins weak points, the fight scenes, especially the messy final cgi fight. But her talking scenes were pretty good. 
> 
> Snyder has awesome cgi fights but has convoluted story telling. I think they could have balanced each other out but alas here we are. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes and gives a straight forward, meaningful story.


That would have been a really bad idea.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I'm not trying to start shit here, but I have no idea how Wonder Woman got all the hype that it did. My knowledge of Wonder Woman is short and begins with New 52 through Rebirth basically. With that being said, I thought Gal Gadot did a solid job with her limited skills and the Wonder Woman character's portrayal was really good (they harp on her desire for truth, conquering shit with love, etc). The character was well adapted from the source. With that being said, wow, I thought it was pretty boring.
> 
> Anyways, that was a lot of stuff, so thanks for reading if you did.


I'll reply to your post in the spoiler thread in the Wonder Woman Forum.

----------


## BatmanJones

Finally a DCEU movie I can LOVE.

Wonder Woman was flat out great.

And Gal Gadot IS Wonder Woman as surely as Christopher Reeve was Superman.

----------


## Troian

> That would have been a really bad idea.


My idea was in theory. :P.

----------


## Troian

> I'm not trying to start shit here, but I have no idea how Wonder Woman got all the hype that it did. My knowledge of Wonder Woman is short and begins with New 52 through Rebirth basically. With that being said, I thought Gal Gadot did a solid job with her limited skills and the Wonder Woman character's portrayal was really good (they harp on her desire for truth, conquering shit with love, etc). The character was well adapted from the source. With that being said, wow, I thought it was pretty boring.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> 
> A few points here and some funny observations my friends and I had while watching:
> 
> The call to adventure took a long ass time to happen (Steve Trevor's plane crashing). Scenes prior to that in Themyscira dragged on and was so slow paced. The movie really felt like 2.5 hours. I had a few people sleeping in my theater. 
> 
> I don't mind them spending time in Themyscira, but I wish they did more world building (is that the right term?) while there. The only thing the audience was informed/shown about the island was that the inhabitants were Amazonians, liked to train a lot, but don't fight if they don't have to, and it's form of government was a monarchy. The rest was explained with an exposition heavy, reading of a book by Hippolyta to a child Diana of the island's history. I didn't like this method in Suicide Squad, so I hated it in this movie too.
> ...


I agree with everything you said. Yes, I heard people going wtf during the tower scene. And I noticed that too with the accents. I'm pretty sure her young and teenage actresses are British haha. My friends were also talking about how one sided the final battle seemed. And many laughed during some of the slow motion in my theatre cause it looked so awkward. 

*spoilers:*
 I also, have my thoughts on the faulty human nature commentary in the spoiler thread. They say that Ares is not the source of all evil, and that killing him won't end the war or make everyone happy again but literally after killing him, the germans and everyone else that survived was happy and the war ended. Ares also flat out says he was pulling the strings and was the puppet master behind the events of the war (mustard gas, convincing Luddendorf to continue fighting, observing Diana). So it contradicted itself when they try to say killing Ares will not end WW1 when it did. Obviously humans still continue fighting but in that war, it was Ares who was the puppet master. I'm also sad that the gods are pretty much done and will likely never appear again, maybe save for Zeus.
*end of spoilers* 

Again, it was good but I personally wouldn't call it boring, just generic? Its basically like every other superhero origin flick. But it is what the dceu needed after the lukewarm reception of the confusing BvS.

----------


## BatmanJones

> 100% that'll happen. Nobody gives snyder credit for anything.


This isn't fair. People judge Snyder's movies and some people don't like them. That's not some sort of unfair Rodney Dangerfield "I get no respect" sort of thing. Every artist is subject to criticism.

In the case of Justice League the credit (if it's good, please let it be good) may be misplaced but the responses to his other movies aren't. He finished those movies. Some people loved them, some hated them. But any criticism of them is fair as with any director.

----------


## Blueblox

> I wish Snyder and Jenkins could have co directed. The Ww movie showed Jenkins weak points, the fight scenes, especially the messy final cgi fight. But her talking scenes were pretty good. 
> 
> Snyder has awesome cgi fights but has convoluted story telling. I think they could have balanced each other out but alas here we are. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes and gives a straight forward, meaningful story.


I would be down for a Patty Jenkins MoS 2 movie, maybe she'll fix superman from the Ayn Rand mess Snyder turned Superman into.

----------


## Johnny

Tipping my hat off to the cast and crew. They made one beautiful film. Keep it up DC.

----------


## Powertool

> I would be down for a Patty Jenkins MoS 2 movie, maybe she'll fix superman from the Ayn Rand mess Snyder turned Superman into.


A movie where the protagonist doesn't hold a 63-minute speech about how awesome he and his ideals are is, by definition, the antithesis of everything Ayn Rand. And I heard no such speeches either in MoS and BvS.

But tell people that you'd like to remake a decades-old movie that was heavily criticized by Ms. Rand herself for not getting the meaning of her original book and everyone goes crazy with the objectivist slander.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> This isn't fair. People judge Snyder's movies and some people don't like them. That's not some sort of unfair Rodney Dangerfield "I get no respect" sort of thing. Every artist is subject to criticism.
> 
> In the case of Justice League the credit (if it's good, please let it be good) may be misplaced but the responses to his other movies aren't. He finished those movies. Some people loved them, some hated them. But any criticism of them is fair as with any director.


With Snyder and BvS I don't think it's as simple as a bad movie gets criticised. It runs a bit deeper than that, why does BvS have the highest review count on RT? There were some genuinely bad reviews and I'm not saying that cuz they were negative but that they were written poorly, like they give the film 0/10 with some hyperbolic statement then the actual review is actual a paragraph or two of them babbling how it isn't their Superman or Batman. 

That brings me on to my second point a lot of negatives people have had are due to their preconceived notions and so instead of reviewing what the film is, they're reviewing what the film isn't. It's like watching a Neeson film and then giving it a negative review because Neeson wasn't kicking ass and killing thugs in the film. 

The film was competently made no denying that but a lot of reviews shuned that. I'm not saying people can't dislike the film they absolutely can, but I'm yet to see a complete argument in which doesn't involve people's preconceived notions. 

(The theatrical had objective problems yes but a lot of them were fixed in the UE).

----------


## Rogue Star

So I'm not sure if it's reshoots or additional scenes or what but anyway...

----------


## Ascended

> Tipping my hat off to the cast and crew. They made one beautiful film. Keep it up DC.


This.

It wasn't as ambitious as Man of Steel, and the fight scenes were fewer, shorter, and not as tight on a technical level. 

But for all those tiny, nit-picky complaints, Wonder Woman was an _excellent_ movie. The plot was tight, if a bit straight forward. Casting was solid. The guy playing Ares was an odd, but somehow inspired, choice. Acting was excellent; even Chris Pine, who's work I generally find mediocre, was good here. Effects, with a couple minor exceptions, was spot on. Costumes looked good. And (mild spoilers) this film juggled two different villains far better than most superhero movies that attempt it. 

This is probably the best movie the DCEU has given us. Im not sure if I like it _more_ than MoS, but I certainly liked it just as much. And it's infinitely better than BvS or Squad.

----------


## Ascended

> So I'm not sure if it's reshoots or additional scenes or what but anyway...


Well, re-shoots are very common, and we knew that Whedon had a few scenes to finish for Snyder, so this shouldn't be surprising. 

I very much doubt Whedon is changing much, if anything, about what's already been done. Apparently he and Snyder are friends; it'd be the ultimate dick move to change the movie Snyder made, especially in light of recent events.

Anyone expecting Whedon to come in and "save" this film is going to be painfully disappointed. He's not going to change the movie Snyder made, he's just putting the polish on it. Like when a surgeon finishes his work and then leaves and lets someone else sew the patient up. That's what this is, nothing more.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Well, re-shoots are very common, and we knew that Whedon had a few scenes to finish for Snyder, so this shouldn't be surprising. 
> 
> I very much doubt Whedon is changing much, if anything, about what's already been done. Apparently he and Snyder are friends; it'd be the ultimate dick move to change the movie Snyder made, especially in light of recent events.


He can't change much.  They would need more time... and shocker they are adding more Gal!  Huge shock!

----------


## Sodam Yat

Although there were a part or two that I disliked when I watched the Wonder Woman film, but overall it's a really good movie. I highly recommend it for others to watch it.

----------


## Robotman

It's official, Wonder Woman opens with 100 million!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...-1005m-1010026

Huge statement against all those naysayers who said a female superhero wouldn't sell. Not to mention the fact that it was directed by a woman.

----------


## El_Gato

Wonder Woman is a great movie! I loved it! Finally a non divisive DC movie that's gotten universal praise!

----------


## Rogue Star

It could still divide those who want something less safe from those who don't want something more daring.

----------


## golgi

> Gitesh Pandya @GiteshPandya
> ·
> 32m
> 
> #WonderWoman flexed more muscle than WB expected SUN dipping only 16% from SAT vs 28% estimate. $103M+ opening wknd, bright road ahead.


The actuals are in. And the Sunday did is lower than expected. Nice.

----------


## Triple J

> It could still divide those who want something less safe from those who don't want something more daring.


Indeed. Or maybe not. I liked the movie, but wasn't entirely satisfied with it, since they stuck with the safe route..except for

*spoilers:*
killing Steve
*end of spoilers*

In any case, this is a movie that can bring a lot of people on board with DCEU, so there's that. And WW's popularity will definitely increase by a good margin.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I disagree about the movie being "safe" it was far from, it still had that grit of the DCEU in abundance, the WW1 setting alone doesn't make the film "safe", there were plenty of instances where they could have gone "safe" but they didn't.

----------


## Vanguard-01

$200 million worldwide already? Every sign in the world that this movie will have great legs? Freaking OSCAR BUZZ? 

Is this a dream?  :Smile:

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I disagree about the movie being "safe" it was far from, it still had that grit of the DCEU in abundance, the WW1 setting alone doesn't make the film "safe", there were plenty of instances where they could have gone "safe" but they didn't.


I agree here, I don't believe the movie was safe. From the beginning it wasn't safe, Wonder Woman or not. First female director helming a $100+ million movie; first female lead superhero movie; WWI setting (there's actually not that many movies about WWI); etc. 
There are a few other origin movies that I would very much argue are "safe." This didn't scream that to me. Wonder Woman was refreshing. It was different enough for me to appreciate it and cleanse my palette of what we've been given since post 2008 (exception Man of Steel. I love that movie too).




> $200 million worldwide already? Every sign in the world that this movie will have great legs? Freaking OSCAR BUZZ? 
> 
> Is this a dream?


I had a feeling there would be a little Oscar buzz with this movie… And it deserves it. 
And right now, the final first weekend estimates are around $225~ million worldwide, depending on if Sunday was truly higher than expected. This movie should have good legs for at least this week with The Mummy being it's only real competition. By next Monday, it'll be somewhere comfortably over $400 million worldwide, using rough math.

I would love to see this movie at least pass Man of Steel's $668 million worldwide total. If it does that, and as long as Justice League and Aquaman deliver next, the DCEU will be PERFECTLY fine. 
Wonder Woman set a high bar, though.

----------


## Aioros22

Not a favorite character of mine despite respecting the groundbreaking premise at core and at the time but still, to all her fans and in general to all fans of a good entertaining movie that packs heart, this is a big one. Batman is easier to get and to bring WB to make their A move but this is by far the best movie of a DCU character after Nolan`s Batman. It`s honest, it`s heartfull, you can feel how genuine it is even if you`re a different gender and that may be its bigest victory. 

Oscar buzz or no, Gal managed to shut some voices up and Pine to cement what some already said about him.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Quick question, did anyone see the Justice League trailer preview before their movie? I was so sure they would show it. But then again, I'm not sure how that works. I was waiting for it and it never materialized. At least we have that new intro…

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I agree here, I don't believe the movie was safe. From the beginning it wasn't safe, Wonder Woman or not. First female director helming a $100+ million movie; first female lead superhero movie; WWI setting (there's actually not that many movies about WWI); etc. 
> There are a few other origin movies that I would very much argue are "safe." This didn't scream that to me. Wonder Woman was refreshing. It was different enough for me to appreciate it and cleanse my palette of what we've been given since post 2008 (exception Man of Steel. I love that movie too)


I was constantly surprised at the things they did in the movie, at every turn I was expecting them to go one way and they went to my joy the other way and in turn made for a very interesting story. 




> Quick question, did anyone see the Justice League trailer preview before their movie? I was so sure they would show it. But then again, I'm not sure how that works. I was waiting for it and it never materialized. At least we have that new intro…


Nope I didn't I was gutted too since I was watching WW in the biggest screen in my theatre so JL trailer would have been amazing! Instead they had these 10 second Dunkirk teases in between other trailers and then ended with a full blown Dunkirk trailer anyway.

----------


## richalex

> Quick question, did anyone see the Justice League trailer preview before their movie? I was so sure they would show it. But then again, I'm not sure how that works. I was waiting for it and it never materialized. At least we have that new intro…


They played it at each of the showings I went to, 3 so far. it was just the trailer we've already seen. Nothing new.

----------


## Ascended

> Quick question, did anyone see the Justice League trailer preview before their movie? I was so sure they would show it. But then again, I'm not sure how that works. I was waiting for it and it never materialized. At least we have that new intro


My theater played the JL trailer. Nothing new, same trailer that got released a while back. I can't speak for the masses but I heard a lot of laughter and excited mumbling about it from the people around us, especially for Aquaman. Not just his one-liners and quips but his action scenes too. Never thought I'd hear an audience get wound up to see friggin Aquaman!  :Smile:  

After BvS took a big dump on Superman I've got zero interest in JL but maybe WB really has learned something from their past films, if WW is any indication....still dont have much hope for that, but my wife and son want to see the movie and I'm gonna get dragged along anyway.....

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'd say the movie had enough slight deviations from typical origin stories that I didn't consider it annoyingly safe. I wonder if I like it more than Dr Strange. I think I do.

----------


## Troian

The female director and female protagonist were risks but as far as story goes, it was straight forward. Many events that happened in the plot happen in many other superhero origins. 

Anyways, estimates for NA opening weekend are 100.5 million. I believe my guess was 100-105 million so it was pretty close. Now we'll see how much it makes by the end. I'm still betting 600-700 million range.

----------


## Johnny

I say it ends up making about the same amount that MoS did.

----------


## AcesX1X

ahhhh i am so excited.  seeing it tonight.  sounds like she's already made history

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I saw WW this last Saturday and loved it. It truly felt like a little bit of a soft reboot for the DCEU. However, I can't help but wonder and worry greatly that all this great momentum and joy will be forfeited if Justice League didn't make the kind of course corrections that were necessary. 

In fact, I'll go a step further. Even if there is humor, a tight, linear story and a brightened tone, it will not be enough to compensate for a plot that finds Superman returning to life in an evil form. So I really, really hope that was one of the things Geoff Johns changed upon taking his new role. In my opinion, it is vital.

----------


## Powertool

> I saw WW this last Saturday and loved it. It truly felt like a little bit of a soft reboot for the DCEU. However, I can't help but wonder and worry greatly that all this great momentum and joy will be forfeited if Justice League didn't make the kind of course corrections that were necessary.


Oh, yeah? And precisely which important retcons did it introduce? A movie having a different tone from another one doesn't make a soft reboot.




> In fact, I'll go a step further. Even if there is humor, a tight, linear story and a brightened tone, it will not be enough to compensate for a plot that finds Superman returning to life in an evil form. So I really, really hope that was one of the things Geoff Johns changed upon taking his new role. In my opinion, it is vital.


Are you a WB insider? Because your guess about Superman coming back to life in an evil form has as much value as mine that he will come back after he was bitten by a radioactive mole while lying in his casket and the world is thus going to know the power and might of the Mole of Tomorrow.

----------


## Triple J

> The female director and female protagonist were risks but as far as story goes, it was straight forward. Many events that happened in the plot happen in many other superhero origins. 
> 
> Anyways, estimates for NA opening weekend are 100.5 million. I believe my guess was 100-105 million so it was pretty close. Now we'll see how much it makes by the end. I'm still betting 600-700 million range.


This pretty much; I was referring to the story aspect.

But, I am glad that WW is enjoying the success - the character needs it! And I hope this leads to even more products - games, movies etc.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I saw WW this last Saturday and loved it. It truly felt like a little bit of a soft reboot for the DCEU. However, I can't help but wonder and worry greatly that all this great momentum and joy will be forfeited if Justice League didn't make the kind of course corrections that were necessary. 
> 
> In fact, I'll go a step further. Even if there is humor, a tight, linear story and a brightened tone, it will not be enough to compensate for a plot that finds Superman returning to life in an evil form. So I really, really hope that was one of the things Geoff Johns changed upon taking his new role. In my opinion, it is vital.


I don't think it looks like a soft reboot. Just a definite change of tone that should only reinforce to WB that this is the kind of tone that will allow them to compete with Marvel in a big way. As it is, Snyder and Co. have repeatedly said that it was always the plan to move the DCEU in a more positive direction after BvS. Even before the negative reviews started pouring in, they were saying this. I think this is just the natural evolution of the DCEU.

And I wouldn't jump to conclusions about Superman coming back evil. There's no evidence to support that. It's always just been a theory. In fact, we just learned that Henry Cavil and Gal Gadot will be coming in for some additional JL scenes in the near future. Sounds like his role may be getting expanded in the movie, and having him spend most of that time being evil completely defeats the idea of him coming back as the Superman we know and love, to which Snyder has alluded many times.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I don't think it looks like a soft reboot. Just a definite change of tone that should only reinforce to WB that this is the kind of tone that will allow them to compete with Marvel in a big way. As it is, Snyder and Co. have repeatedly said that it was always the plan to move the DCEU in a more positive direction after BvS. Even before the negative reviews started pouring in, they were saying this. I think this is just the natural evolution of the DCEU.
> 
> And I wouldn't jump to conclusions about Superman coming back evil. There's no evidence to support that. It's always just been a theory. In fact, we just learned that Henry Cavil and Gal Gadot will be coming in for some additional JL scenes in the near future. Sounds like his role may be getting expanded in the movie, and having him spend most of that time being evil completely defeats the idea of him coming back as the Superman we know and love, to which Snyder has alluded many times.


Appreciate your perspective. I should have been more careful with my words. I didn't mean reboot as much as a clear change in direction with the movie-going audiences. 

On Superman in JL--I really, really hope you're right. It just seemed that from the Knightmare sequences in BvS and a couple quotes from Snyder immediately after the movie came out (something like "Yes, Superman will likely return in JL, but in what form is the question) have me concerned. In fact, even though I'm happy on one hand that Superman and WW are getting more scenes in JL, I am actually a little concerned that WB is tampering with reshoots to get the hot commodity (WW) on screen. This reminds me of when they first watched BvS and liked Affleck so much that they demanded more Batman in the film, which led so some of the editing choices that many did not care for. 

But all in all, JL will be much better if Superman just comes back and is more hopeful and confident without having to go the temporarily evil or mind controlled route.

----------


## Flash Gordon

I saw WONDER WOMAN and I loved it. Very entertaining. Finally we have a superhero movie worth rushing to the cinema to see. 

The fight scene at the end devolved into big, loud CGI nonsense but that's to be expected with these flicks I guess. I enjoyed every other bit of it.

----------


## Bukdiah

> This pretty much; I was referring to the story aspect.
> 
> But, I am glad that WW is enjoying the success - the character needs it! And I hope this leads to even more products - games, movies etc.


Yeah, I'm glad WW is getting some love too. Gal surprised the shit outta me and her scenes with Chris Pine were pretty good.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I saw WONDER WOMAN and I loved it. Very entertaining. 
> 
> The fight scene at the end devolved into big, loud CGI nonsense but that's to be expected with these flicks I guess. I enjoyed every other bit of it.


Reminded me of BvS Doomsday crap. I wasn't too please with that fight scene lol.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So Squad 2 is being worked on script wise and aiming for 2018 shoot date (so probably 2019 release), wondering who you guys want as the director? I know there was talk of Mel Gibson but that seemed too good to be true, I'd personally say someone like Scott Frank, he has a good history of writing credits and his last directorial work "A Walk Among the Tombstones" I thought was promising and he would fit for the more grounded story that they are going for.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Appreciate your perspective. I should have been more careful with my words. I didn't mean reboot as much as a clear change in direction with the movie-going audiences. 
> 
> On Superman in JL--I really, really hope you're right. It just seemed that from the Knightmare sequences in BvS and a couple quotes from Snyder immediately after the movie came out (something like "Yes, Superman will likely return in JL, but in what form is the question) have me concerned. In fact, even though I'm happy on one hand that Superman and WW are getting more scenes in JL, I am actually a little concerned that WB is tampering with reshoots to get the hot commodity (WW) on screen. This reminds me of when they first watched BvS and liked Affleck so much that they demanded more Batman in the film, which led so some of the editing choices that many did not care for. 
> 
> But all in all, JL will be much better if Superman just comes back and is more hopeful and confident without having to go the temporarily evil or mind controlled route.


We don't know whether Henry or Gal are shooting for WW or Superman, it most likely is interstitial stuff to help the plot flow more better. They have been wanting to these additionals for quite some time remember but the moons haven't aligned with everyone being busy in different parts of the world, so the additional photography itself probably won't last that long anyway.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> So Squad 2 is being worked on script wise and aiming for 2018 shoot date (so probably 2019 release), wondering who you guys want as the director? I know there was talk of Mel Gibson but that seemed too good to be true, I'd personally say someone like Scott Frank, he has a good history of writing credits and his last directorial work "A Walk Among the Tombstones" I thought was promising and he would fit for the more grounded story that they are going for.


More grounded? Intriguing. Peter Berg, Gareth Edwards, Jordan Vogt- Roberts maybe? *goes and decorates mancave in honor of Ostrander's Suicide Squad*

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

After watching the JL trailer again this weekend in front of WW, something occurred to me. You know the shot of just Cyborg, Aquaman and Wonder Woman (after dropping into the shot) getting ready for battle in what looks like a ship of some kind? While I will make no assumption at what they're doing or setting out to accomplish, it did make me wonder what Batman and Flash are doing. Since there are primarily 6 members of the JL in this film, and three are in the shot mentioned above, what if at that point Batman and Flash are fulfilling their half of the mission which is to retrieve and resurrect Superman? That'd be cool. 

November is too far away!

----------


## Confuzzled

> So Squad 2 is being worked on script wise and aiming for 2018 shoot date (so probably 2019 release), wondering who you guys want as the director? I know there was talk of Mel Gibson but that seemed too good to be true, I'd personally say someone like Scott Frank, he has a good history of writing credits and his last directorial work "A Walk Among the Tombstones" I thought was promising and he would fit for the more grounded story that they are going for.


Didn't Guy Ritchie show interest in the film? Unlike other people I enjoyed the heck out of King Arthur! 

Other choices are Pete Travis (Dredd), Jordan Vogt-Roberts (Kong: Skull Island) and of course, Deadpool's Tim Miller.




> More grounded? Intriguing. Peter Berg, Gareth Edwards, Jordan Vogt- Roberts maybe? *goes and decorates mancave in honor of Ostrander's Suicide Squad*


Yes to JVR. No to Gareth Edwards. He made an unusually lacklustre Godzilla, and his Star Wars: Rogue One director's cut was apparently so underwhelming that they had to order reshoots by another director.

----------


## Confuzzled

> After watching the JL trailer again this weekend in front of WW, something occurred to me. You know the shot of just Cyborg, Aquaman and Wonder Woman (after dropping into the shot) getting ready for battle in what looks like a ship of some kind? While I will make no assumption at what they're doing or setting out to accomplish, it did make me wonder what Batman and Flash are doing. Since there are primarily 6 members of the JL in this film, and three are in the shot mentioned above, what if at that point Batman and Flash are fulfilling their half of the mission which is to retrieve and resurrect Superman? That'd be cool. 
> 
> November is too far away!


That hadn't occurred to me before but now that you bring it up, the thought of Bruce and Barry being their own Dynamic Duo IS kinda fun.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Wandering_Wand

This scene had to be sold to studio execs and almost didn't happen: 

http://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-most-important-scene/

Unreal! It was by far a scene that made the hair stand up on my arms. Good for Patty.

----------


## Rogue Star

> So Squad 2 is being worked on script wise and aiming for 2018 shoot date (so probably 2019 release), wondering who you guys want as the director? I know there was talk of Mel Gibson but that seemed too good to be true, I'd personally say someone like Scott Frank, he has a good history of writing credits and his last directorial work "A Walk Among the Tombstones" I thought was promising and he would fit for the more grounded story that they are going for.


Whoever they get I hope they can make the characters feel like actual bad guys.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Whoever they get I hope they can make the characters feel like actual bad guys.


"We're bad guys. It's what we do."

----------


## Rogue Star

> This scene had to be sold to studio execs and almost didn't happen: 
> 
> http://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-most-important-scene/
> 
> Unreal! It was by far a scene that made the hair stand up on my arms. Good for Patty.


It would have been a tragedy if that scene didn't make it in. I hope those execs are eating a hundred million dollars worth of humble pie right now.




> "We're bad guys. It's what we do."


If they have to keep telling me they're doing it wrong.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> After watching the JL trailer again this weekend in front of WW, something occurred to me. *You know the shot of just Cyborg, Aquaman and Wonder Woman* (after dropping into the shot) getting ready for battle in what looks like a ship of some kind? While I will make no assumption at what they're doing or setting out to accomplish, it did make me wonder what Batman and Flash are doing. Since there are primarily 6 members of the JL in this film, and three are in the shot mentioned above, what if at that point Batman and Flash are fulfilling their half of the mission which is to retrieve and resurrect Superman? That'd be cool. 
> 
> November is too far away!



I feel like that shot, was to reference the idea of where all 3 motherboxes were housed by. Wonder Woman(The Amazon faction), Aquaman (The Atlantean Faction), and Cyborg (The humans).

I'm assuming Flash and Batman will be together doing something maybe somewhere else. A lot of the trailer scenes had them separated for the most part and not all 5 trailer heroes together.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This scene had to be sold to studio execs and almost didn't happen: 
> 
> http://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-most-important-scene/
> 
> Unreal! It was by far a scene that made the hair stand up on my arms. Good for Patty.


Wow. The pretty much undisputed "Most Iconic Moment in the Whole Movie" almost didn't happen? SMH.

The movie wouldn't be half as well-received if that scene had been cut, I have no doubt about it. Once again, we see studio executives coming within spitting distance of turning a great movie into, at best. a "Meh" movie. 

Thank goodness more intelligent heads prevailed.

----------


## The Kid

> Whoever they get I hope they can make the characters feel like actual bad guys.


Pretty much. The Squad felt like Guardian knockoffs instead of actual villains

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Pretty much. The Squad felt like Guardian knockoffs instead of actual villains



To me that was a problem but not the fundamental one. The biggest issue was that they invested very little time getting the audience to emotionally invest in virtually any character since their backstories were so short. Do I really care that El Diablo killed his wife and kids in a fit of rage if I find out when the movie is almost over? Or is Deadshot's daughter really going to pull on my heartstrings if the entire relationship was told in 2 minutes of flashbacks? Captain Boomerang was pretty much a non-factor. All the concerns heading into the film about too many characters to develop within a short amount of time turned out to be true, and the end result was a sloppy narrative and Jared Leto getting pissed that his stuff was cut (not that I care that he's pissed but it would be weird to have to recast the Joker within the same universe).

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Whoever they get I hope they can make the characters feel like actual bad guys.


Yeah that was a big flaw of the first film they just told the audience and expected them to buy it. Obviously we know but it would have been better if the first act was them setting all the characters and showing why they are locked up, eurgh the more I think of that film the more I wish David Ayer did have a time machine lol.

----------


## Bukdiah

Your post just reminded me of that terrible line lol

----------


## Bukdiah

> Yeah that was a big flaw of the first film they just told the audience and expected them to buy it. Obviously we know but it would have been better if the first act was them setting all the characters and showing why they are locked up, eurgh the more I think of that film the more I wish David Ayer did have a time machine lol.


I had a lot of faith in Ayer, but with the exception of Training Day, End of Watch, and Fury, I haven't liked anything of his. That man needs a hyperbolic time chamber!

----------


## batnbreakfast

The biggest Flaw was not giving me Croc instead of King Shark. Aside from Waller and Harley I do not want to see any of the characters again. Yes, to Bronze Tiger, Count Vertigo, Duchess and creepy perv Boomerang.
I don't care for Gotham City Sirens without Paul Dini assisting. Black Mask is a personal favourite, though.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Wow. The pretty much undisputed "Most Iconic Moment in the Whole Movie" almost didn't happen? SMH.
> 
> The movie wouldn't be half as well-received if that scene had been cut, I have no doubt about it. Once again, we see studio executives coming within spitting distance of turning a great movie into, at best. a "Meh" movie. 
> 
> Thank goodness more intelligent heads prevailed.


Which is why Evil Superman is still a possibility. These are the people making the decisions. SMH.

----------


## Ascended

> Pretty much. The Squad felt like Guardian knockoffs instead of actual villains


Not that I disagree on the GotG parallels but.....the Guardians *were* villains. Or at least, they were all career criminals. 

Gamora was the daughter of the galaxy's biggest villain and had committed countless atrocities in his name. 

Rocket and Groot were mercenaries. 

Drax was in jail for murder.

Star-Lord was the "best" of them, with a criminal record that *only* included B&E, assault, grand theft, etc. 

Im pretty sure that would qualify them for "villain" status in most comic book universes. Not A-grade villains like Luthor or Doom, but still villains.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Which is why Evil Superman is still a possibility. These are the people making the decisions. SMH.


Well, the success of this movie will do much to show those executives that "lighter and inspiring" is what sells right now. One of the most consistent complaints people have had regarding Superman in the DCEU has been that he seems like a "Dark Superman." 

So "Dark Superman" = Lots of Complaints and Lower Sales Than Desired. "Inspirational Wonder Woman" = Lots of Praise and Sales That Are Crushing Expectations. 

They can't possibly think "REALLY Dark Superman" will equal anything other than "Even More Complaints and Possibly Even Less Sales."

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> The biggest Flaw was not giving me Croc instead of King Shark. Aside from Waller and Harley I do not want to see any of the characters again. *Yes, to Bronze Tiger, Count Vertigo, Duchess and creepy perv Boomerang.
> I don't care for Gotham City Sirens without Paul Dini assisting. Black Mask is a personal favourite, though.*


*
*

omg yes. Bronze Tiger and Vertigo should've been on the team instead.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Well, the success of this movie will do much to show those executives that "lighter and inspiring" is what sells right now. One of the most consistent complaints people have had regarding Superman in the DCEU has been that he seems like a "Dark Superman." 
> 
> So "Dark Superman" = Lots of Complaints and Lower Sales Than Desired. "Inspirational Wonder Woman" = Lots of Praise and Sales That Are Crushing Expectations. 
> 
> They can't possibly think "REALLY Dark Superman" will equal anything other than "Even More Complaints and Possibly Even Less Sales."



One would think that'd be the case, but JL is pretty much all done but for editing. So if they went down the dark Superman path prior to seeing the reaction to inspirational WW, then it's still too late to fix.

----------


## Rogue Star

As much as people have been decrying emo Superman I don't see that happening.

----------


## Lightning Rider

If Superman comes back evil, it will be for like 2 seconds before he saves the day.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If Superman comes back evil, it will be for like 2 seconds before he saves the day.


Yeah, I'm not worried at all by that, either.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Wow. The pretty much undisputed "Most Iconic Moment in the Whole Movie" almost didn't happen? SMH.
> 
> The movie wouldn't be half as well-received if that scene had been cut, I have no doubt about it. Once again, we see studio executives coming within spitting distance of turning a great movie into, at best. a "Meh" movie. 
> 
> Thank goodness more intelligent heads prevailed.


I wonder if Johns was in this meeting. 

#1 on his list of things to do should be being the "company" man in the room who can help convince the suits that this is what makes a movie great.

----------


## Doctor Know

Found this making the rounds on tumblr.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

That from JL or WW? If JL then definitely not a coincidence and very Snyder like nod! Speaking of

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Hughes breaks down the JL "extensive reshoots" rumours. In typical Hughes fashion it's a detailed and well written article laying out the facts:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug...w-filming/amp/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I wonder if Johns was in this meeting. 
> 
> #1 on his list of things to do should be being the "company" man in the room who can help convince the suits that this is what makes a movie great.


I'll bet he was involved. If Wonder Woman is any indication, from here on out, I'd say we can assume that just about EVERY good decision in the DCEU has his fingerprints all over it. 




> That from JL or WW? If JL then definitely not a coincidence and very Snyder like nod! Speaking of


What a classy guy!  :Smile:

----------


## silly

hey guys, i may probably be late to the party, but i just want to say wonder woman was awesome.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> hey guys, i may probably be late to the party, but i just want to say wonder woman was awesome.


It is never too late to say that WW is awesome. Why were people worried about Gal's acting? I've never watched the FF crapfests :Stick Out Tongue: 

What was Patty's vision for Thor 2? I've missed the details...

----------


## Confuzzled

> It is never too late to say that WW is awesome. Why were people worried about Gal's acting? I've never watched the FF crapfests
> 
> What was Patty's vision for Thor 2? I've missed the details...


I liked her in her FF films too.  :Big Grin:  I don't know what some people were going on about. I think it was mostly that John Campea guy and some folks misinterpreting her accent as "flat line delivery". 

I think Patty wanted more focus on Jane Foster in Thor 2 and she envisioned it as a sort of _Romeo & Juliet_ with the Asgardians and Midgardians having to deal with Thor/Jane's romance. It sounds more interesting than the dull movie that we did get.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I liked her in her FF films too.  I don't know what some people were going on about. I think it was mostly that John Campea guy and some folks misinterpreting her accent as "flat line delivery". 
> 
> I think Patty wanted more focus on Jane Foster in Thor 2 and she envisioned it as a sort of _Romeo & Juliet_ with the Asgardians and Midgardians having to deal with Thor/Jane's romance. It sounds more interesting than the dull movie that we did get.


Campea is still on that Gal is no good thing, one reasons he gave was her other movies... Like what does that have to do with with this one? And he then went on to say how Gal was only directed into the role by Patty and he said the film would be better if we had someone like the (generic) Jaime Alexander... Eirgh gimme a break. 

But funny thing, on Collider Schnepp called him out on it, not directly but he looked into the camera and said if anyone says Gal isn't a real actress or was "directed into WW" it's BS she's a real actress, that immediately made me think of Campea's comments, usually not a huge fan of collider crew but glad they called that out.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Campea is still on that Gal is no good thing, one reasons he gave was her other movies... Like what does that have to do with with this one? And he then went on to say how Gal was only directed into the role by Patty and he said the film would be better if we had someone like the (generic) Jaime Alexander... Eirgh gimme a break. 
> 
> But funny thing, on Collider Schnepp called him out on it, not directly but he looked into the camera and said if anyone says Gal isn't a real actress or was "directed into WW" it's BS she's a real actress, that immediately made me think of Campea's comments, usually not a huge fan of collider crew but glad they called that out.


He defends Man of Steel too (even though I don't like it). I think he's tired of people's... stuff and he's been going on the attack lately.

----------


## Confuzzled

> He defends Man of Steel too (even though I don't like it). I think he's tired of people's... stuff and he's been going on the attack lately.


He's been relentlessly bashing Gal since her casting was announced some 3-4 years back, all because, as Baggie_Saiyan said, she was cast over one of his bland and charisma-free picks. He even made crap comments about why it's offensive to cast GG as Wonder Woman as she modelled for lingerie. He may not be anti-DCEU in general, but such consistent, prolonged hate and demeaning insults directed towards its most prominent actress added to the negative buzz. Gal had already received enough crap from the "her boobs are too small" fanboys.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> And he then went on to say how Gal was only directed into the role by Patty and he said the film would be better if we had someone like the (generic) Jaime Alexander... Eirgh gimme a break.


She's not a bad actress, but I can't see her over Gal. Jaime, IMO, doesn't have the same charisma or bearing.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> Hughes breaks down the JL "extensive reshoots" rumours. In typical Hughes fashion it's a detailed and well written article laying out the facts:
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug...w-filming/amp/


Hmmmm, well he does a good job of laying things out, but then buries the lede that really destroys his premise:

"Two films became one, story arcs were changed and removed, tone was shifted even more toward a positive and fun approach, Batman and certain elements around him were rewritten, now new scenes are being added and some scenes reshot, and now a new director is taking over to film those new scenes and reshoots and to finish editing the film. That’s a lot of change to the project from its conception to the final product we’ll get when it’s released, and there’s no point denying that."

----------


## AcesX1X

saw it last night and was in tears during some moments.  i cannot believe how much i loved ww.   truly i was in wonder, and that was the best super-film i have seen in a really long time.

----------


## LordTrump

> Hmmmm, well he does a good job of laying things out, but then buries the lede that really destroys his premise:
> 
> "Two films became one, story arcs were changed and removed, tone was shifted even more toward a positive and fun approach, Batman and certain elements around him were rewritten, now new scenes are being added and some scenes reshot, and now a new director is taking over to film those new scenes and reshoots and to finish editing the film. That’s a lot of change to the project from its conception to the final product we’ll get when it’s released, and there’s no point denying that."


Oh crap, that doesn't sound good.....
Two films into one? Sounds like BvS..........

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Oh crap, that doesn't sound good.....
> Two films into one? Sounds like BvS..........


Read that Forbes piece and came away with the exact reaction.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Oh crap, that doesn't sound good.....
> Two films into one? Sounds like BvS..........


Read the article and you won't have that response. Don't be like your username namesake; be smart  :Smile:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Read the article and you won't have that response. Don't be like your username namesake; be smart


I don't know. I read the full piece but it did seem like that decision to combine the two films got glossed over in the piece for the sake of over-explaining re-shoots.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Even if they are covering for the "extensive reshoots," that doesn't mean the movie is going to be bad. Heck, if anything, it means that they recognized some flaws in the original concepts and are now endeavoring to fix them in order to produce a better movie that we'll all enjoy more. 

Contrary to what we've been led to think, "extensive reshoots" is not synonymous with "It's a mess and this movie's going to be a disaster." IIRC, World War Z re-shot pretty much its entire third act, and pretty much anyone who knew anything about the original plan said it was a vast improvement. The box office would seem to agree as well, because WWZ was thoroughly successful. So successful, it's got a sequel in the works right now. Rogue One had extensive re-shoots and that movie made a billion dollars. 

This could easily be good news, even if it's true.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Campea is still on that Gal is no good thing, one reasons he gave was her other movies... Like what does that have to do with with this one? And he then went on to say how Gal was only directed into the role by Patty and he said the film would be better if we had someone like the (generic) Jaime Alexander... Eirgh gimme a break. 
> 
> But funny thing, on Collider Schnepp called him out on it, not directly but he looked into the camera and said if anyone says Gal isn't a real actress or was "directed into WW" it's BS she's a real actress, that immediately made me think of Campea's comments, usually not a huge fan of collider crew but glad they called that out.


Yeah... I can't watch Collider Crew Movie Talk at all anymore because of him and that annoying guy who is there every once in a while

----------


## Bukdiah

> Campea is still on that Gal is no good thing, one reasons he gave was her other movies... Like what does that have to do with with this one? And he then went on to say how Gal was only directed into the role by Patty and he said the film would be better if we had someone like the (generic) Jaime Alexander... Eirgh gimme a break. 
> 
> But funny thing, on Collider Schnepp called him out on it, not directly but he looked into the camera and said if anyone says Gal isn't a real actress or was "directed into WW" it's BS she's a real actress, that immediately made me think of Campea's comments, usually not a huge fan of collider crew but glad they called that out.


In his defense, Gal Gadot has had a string of shit movies though.  I know I'd be hesitant if your only well known roles were those Fast and Furious flicks, but she was dope in Wonder Woman. Man over there is trippin'. Also, I have only seen Jaime Alexander in Blindspot and she is god awful lmao.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Also, I have only seen Jaime Alexander in Blindspot and she is god awful lmao.


Though I think she's fine on the show, she needs to reduce the number of scared/shocked closeups down to a minimum per episode.  :Smile:

----------


## Potanical Pardon

> Found this making the rounds on tumblr.


This doesn't make any sense. Only Tec and Action had made it far enough to have an 828. None of the JL titles went anywhere far enough. Superman 82, okay fine, but it's not "SM 82", and why V2M would mean Superman...

JL 828 could be a date. The movie comes out in November. August 28 is a Monday...could be a trailer. V2M could just mean Video 2 Monday, as in second trailer.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Though I think she's fine on the show, she needs to reduce the number of scared/shocked closeups down to a minimum per episode.


lmao I never finished season one. The show was too silly. Although, I did like the ads. I used to say stuff like "When driving, make sure to check your..BLINDSPOT by NBC"

----------


## Troian

Gal didn't blow me away acting wise but she did a serviceable job. She wasn't bad at all.

----------


## Rogue Star

> He's been relentlessly bashing Gal since her casting was announced some 3-4 years back, all because, as Baggie_Saiyan said, she was cast over one of his bland and charisma-free picks. He even made crap comments about why it's offensive to cast GG as Wonder Woman as she modelled for lingerie. He may not be anti-DCEU in general, but such consistent, prolonged hate and demeaning insults directed towards its most prominent actress added to the negative buzz. Gal had already received enough crap from the "her boobs are too small" fanboys.


I was talking about Schnepp. I forgot to name him in my comment.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Hmmmm, well he does a good job of laying things out, but then buries the lede that really destroys his premise:
> 
> "Two films became one, story arcs were changed and removed, tone was shifted even more toward a positive and fun approach, Batman and certain elements around him were rewritten, now new scenes are being added and some scenes reshot, and now a new director is taking over to film those new scenes and reshoots and to finish editing the film. Thats a lot of change to the project from its conception to the final product well get when its released, and theres no point denying that."


That *is* a lot. Makes me wonder what the original movie looked like at conception.  Dang, I want them to make that just so that I can see it.

----------


## Lightning Rider

From Henry's instagram:



Hi Everyone! I've been doing some Super Ruminations because this month is the 79th anniversary of Superman in Action Comics and thought it fitting to pass on this little fact. Who knew eh?? In January 1933, Jerry Siegel wrote a short story titled "The Reign of the Superman", which was illustrated by his friend Joe Shuster and self-published in a science fiction magazine. It told the story of a bald villain with telepathic powers. Trying to create a character they could sell to newspaper syndicates,Siegel re-conceived the "superman" character as a powerful hero, sent to our world from a more advanced society. He and Shuster developed the idea into a comic strip, which they pitched unsuccessfully. National Publications was looking for a hit to accompany their success with Detective Comics, and did not have time to solicit new material. Because of the tight deadline, editor Vin Sullivan was forced to make it out of inventory and stockpile pages. Sullivan asked former coworker Sheldon Mayer if he could help. Mayer found the rejected Superman comic strips, and Sullivan told Siegel and Shuster that if they could paste them into 13 comic book pages, he would buy them. #SuperRuminations #Superman #ActionComics

----------


## Rogue Star

Lol. Does he sleep in that too?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Lol. Does he sleep in that too?


Hell, I would if I got to play Superman lol 

But I think this is him teasing that he's on-set for reshoots/additional shots, no?

----------


## AcesX1X

> Lol. Does he sleep in that too?


just when i think cavill couldn't be any more perfect, he posts something as great as that.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

RE: Justice League. 

I don't think it is anything to worry about, remember these guys have been on the set visit. WB had a plan to make JL a two part story but then decided to scrap that and focus on getting a film done for now, so obviously main plot elements will stay and other things would be rejigged, "two films into one" sounds scary than it really is. 

And WB aren't gonna suddenly change the film Zack made when they offered to move the film to fit with Zack. The film I imagine would have be to completed at least a month before release ready for the screenings, premiere's etc, so extensive summer "reshoots" doesn't make sense, since they'd have about a month or so for post... Sometimes simple logic is only needed. Plus don't forgot that the fact all the actors are off busy in other parts of the world on different projects, they talked about how hard it was to set around a date to fit everyone so if anything the additional photog are gonna be minimumal.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Hell, I would if I got to play Superman lol 
> 
> But I think this is him teasing that he's on-set for reshoots/additional shots, no?


I know but it's not as fun to think about.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

And of course comicbookmovie.com with a hit piece talking about substantial reshoots that are significantly reshaping the film.

----------


## The Kid

JL reshoots might not mean something but I'm not gonna so far as to say it's nothing to worry about. During BvS and Suicide Squad, everyone ignored potential warning signs and stayed in a safe space that the movie was doing great behind the scenes. I'm not saying to panic but heavy reshoots can go either way. Lets hope Whedon does a good job

----------


## Ascended

There are plenty of warning signs for JL already. The reshoots......they might be a warning sign, they might just be a part of the regular process. Hard to tell from this side of things.

----------


## Rogue Star

> And of course comicbookmovie.com with a hit piece talking about substantial reshoots that are significantly reshaping the film.


Changing one scene could significantly reshape a film so there's nothing inherently wrong with the suggestion that reshoots could do that.

Wonder Woman almost didn't get her most inspiring moment in her movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> JL reshoots might not mean something but I'm not gonna so far as to say it's nothing to worry about. During BvS and Suicide Squad, everyone ignored potential warning signs and stayed in a safe space that the movie was doing great behind the scenes. I'm not saying to panic but heavy reshoots can go either way. Lets hope Whedon does a good job


I think it's within reason, especially after seeing how great Wonder Woman turned out to be, to assume that WB learned from the mistakes they made in BvS and SS. If they ARE doing reshoots, then it's probably safe to assume that those reshoots are the kind of reshoots that will make things better in the long run.

With Joss Whedon involved, it's perhaps even more encouraging. If WB does see a need for a genuine course correction and they let Whedon have the freedom he needs to do the job, then his past track record suggests that any changes he might make might just be more in line with what the audience wants anyway. The guy produced two movies that broke into the Billion Dollar Club in this genre. So if WB is making changes, then they've turned the job over to the right guy.

----------


## LordTrump

> Read the article and you won't have that response. Don't be like your username namesake; be smart


Don't make me bomb you. 
Also, it's still disconcerting.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> And of course comicbookmovie.com with a hit piece talking about substantial reshoots that are significantly reshaping the film.


CBM is a cesspool. It's full of vitrol, DC hating man children. And the moderators/writers partake in slamming the DCEU from time to  time in the comments. It's usually one big circle jerk.

The only thing that can be done is for WB to address Justice League's production status. That's the only way to get everyone to shut up.

Part of the reason(s) why it's being reported the re-shoots will take most of the Summer is because most of the actors are currently shooting other movies. What this also means is if they intend to keep the November release date, the movie is further along than we think and these re-shoots are exactly what Snyder said they'd be: adding in additional scenes.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> JL reshoots might not mean something but I'm not gonna so far as to say it's nothing to worry about. During BvS and Suicide Squad, everyone ignored potential warning signs and stayed in a safe space that the movie was doing great behind the scenes. I'm not saying to panic but heavy reshoots can go either way. Lets hope Whedon does a good job


Again these heavy re-shoots aren't confirmed and don't make sense, they come from an anonymous "source" from Batman on Film who only a week before reported a "source" told them that they saw the JL rough cut and it was great.... Plus extensive reshoots into August meaning only on month to post all of that... yeah no. Plus before the Snyder news Roven talked about how hard it was to schedule everyone back for the pick ups but now they suddenly got everyone back for 3 months... 

Funny how people would run news from a random "source" but not think and piece *actual* evidence together. (Not talking about you but these so called sites who just clicks and spread fear).

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Again these heavy re-shoots aren't confirmed and don't make sense, they come from an anonymous "source" from Batman on Film who only a week before reported a "source" told them that they saw the JL rough cut and it was great.... Plus extensive reshoots into August meaning only on month to post all of that... yeah no. Plus before the Snyder news Roven talked about how hard it was to schedule everyone back for the pick ups but now they suddenly got everyone back for 3 months... 
> 
> Funny how people would run news from a random "source" but not think and piece *actual* evidence together. (Not talking about you but these so called sites who just clicks and spread fear).


If the 3 other DCEU films to date had the critical reception of WW we would all have faith. But alas...this is Warner Bros. at work.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

To be clear, there is no one that wants JL to be more successful than me. That said, there are a lot of things "not normal" going on with JL - the most apparent one being Joss Whedon being brought in to finish the film. I do understand Snyder had a very sad personal issue, but I don't remember a major tentpole movie ever having anything like the directorial situation here. If the DCEU was 4 for 4, or even 3 for 4, with solid movies I wouldn't be worried at all, however these are many of the same rumors that swirled around BvS and SS. We'll see, but I think anyone saying don't worry is letting their fandom get in the way of common sense

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> And of course comicbookmovie.com with a hit piece talking about substantial reshoots that are significantly reshaping the film.


That is a good thing right?

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> That is a good thing right?


It certainly could be if it is in response to Wonder Woman

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> To be clear, there is no one that wants JL to be more successful than me. That said, there are a lot of things "not normal" going on with JL - the most apparent one being Joss Whedon being brought in to finish the film. I do understand Snyder had a very sad personal issue, but I don't remember a major tentpole movie ever having anything like the directorial situation here. If the DCEU was 4 for 4, or even 3 for 4, with solid movies I wouldn't be worried at all, however these are many of the same rumors that swirled around BvS and SS. We'll see, but I think anyone saying don't worry is letting their fandom get in the way of common sense


Remember, though: WB was willing to push JL back for Snyder, apparently for however long he needed. 
Snyder, apparently, is the one who insisted to keep JL in November and brought Whedon on. 

As some of us have been saying, every little conspiracy/statement/response and however JL is received by critics, will all be blamed on Snyder, or Whedon praised for things he probably didn't have much say in. 

What we know: JL already had a rough cut finished and shown. Snyder himself wanted additional scenes and brought Whedon in to write those as the Snyder family was going through their tragedy. Snyder then bows out and gives control to Whedon. Snyder chose Whedon, not WB. We simply don't know anything other than those facts/statements that we were told. 

What I want to know is, who gets credit at the end? 

Directed By: 

Zack Snyder & Joss Whedon

?

----------


## Bossace

With this the first real introduction of Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash, how much of the movie is going to be consumed by origin? That's my only worry about them skipping the solos for those characters and doing JL first.

----------


## Triple J

> JL reshoots might not mean something but I'm not gonna so far as to say it's nothing to worry about. During BvS and Suicide Squad, everyone ignored potential warning signs and stayed in a safe space that the movie was doing great behind the scenes. I'm not saying to panic but heavy reshoots can go either way. Lets hope Whedon does a good job


I just hope WB isn't screwing this up, like they did with BvS and SS. Hope they have learned their lesson there...

----------


## Triple J

> With this the first real introduction of Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash, how much of the movie is going to be consumed by origin? That's my only worry about them skipping the solos for those characters and doing JL first.


I don't think they need to explore that in detail. Just a few scenes/sentences should be enough. Consider ensemble films, it's not like we know the backstory of each character in detail (HP franchise is a good example. They built it up over several films).

----------


## Flash Gordon

Aquaman and Mera's story will be told soon in the AQUAMAN solo. For now they can just be the true rulers of a magical underwater nation. The Flash can be explained in a few sentences. Cyborg, we may see the origin of since it involves a Mother Box and directly relates to the Stephenwolf fella.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't think they need to explore that in detail. Just a few scenes/sentences should be enough. Consider ensemble films, it's not like we know the backstory of each character in detail (HP franchise is a good example. They built it up over several films).


Yeah, exactly. 15 seconds of dialogue is all you need right now for each character. "I was hit by a bolt of lightning, and next thing I knew I was the fastest man alive." "My father once loved a Queen from the sea." Etc. 

All they have to do is a quick intro and off they go. Their personal character growth can be saved for their future solos (I know the trailer shows Barry at the prison meeting with Henry, but I have a feeling the scene will be brief). One thing DC has over Marvel is character recognition. Everyone knows Thor now, but he needed a film to tell the audience who he was, and what he could do. The Flash runs really fast. Everyone already knows that. So anything else he does in the movie is just icing. Cyborg is the one who will get the most backstory, if I had to guess. He's the unknown guy to general audiences. And though people might think Aquaman only talks to fish, they know about him and know he lives in the water. The general public was mostly clueless on Iron Man before his first film came out.  In this area, I think DC is on the right track. Solos aren't needed first. 

Plus, I like that DC is going in a different direction than Marvel. We learn about the team as the heroes do. Batman only knows Aquaman from what he's read/heard, so we'll learn a little about him as Batman does. But when the world is on the line, they can bond and become buddies later. Right now, we need the Fastest Man Alive, and oh hey, here he is. If that makes sense.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I just hope WB isn't screwing this up, like they did with BvS and SS. Hope they have learned their lesson there...


The thing is that WB screwed up the theatrical release of BvS... but while much better the BvS extended cut still suffered from the same general problems that made people dislike the theatrical release.  That is on the director and the script.  You can't blame WB for everything.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> To be clear, there is no one that wants JL to be more successful than me. That said, there are a lot of things "not normal" going on with JL - the most apparent one being Joss Whedon being brought in to finish the film. I do understand Snyder had a very sad personal issue, but I don't remember a major tentpole movie ever having anything like the directorial situation here. If the DCEU was 4 for 4, or even 3 for 4, with solid movies I wouldn't be worried at all, however these are many of the same rumors that swirled around BvS and SS. We'll see, but I think anyone saying don't worry is letting their fandom get in the way of common sense


To be fair, we have no idea how common it is for big movies to bring in new directors late in the game to patch up troubled productions, as those sort of things usually go uncredited. The only reason we know about it this time is that Whedon is a big name, especially with his Avengers-credentials, and will generate some healthy buzz. Still, I agree that it's not a good sign, and while it might turn out that Snyder's and Whedon's strengths compliment each other there's also a risk of it not working out at all.

----------


## Triple J

> The thing is that WB screwed up the theatrical release of BvS... but while much better the BvS extended cut still suffered from the same general problems that made people dislike the theatrical release.  That is on the director and the script.  You can't blame WB for everything.


True...although I do find at least some of those issues...as non-issues.

One of the things I didn't like - Killing Superman off this early. I understand Snyder's reasons, but I do wonder if it was actually his decision. We all know how badly WB wanted to adapt that story line, so I wouldn't be surprised if they encouraged him to pursue it.

Anyways, BvS, despite its flaws setup a solid foundation to work with.....and I hope they can do something amazing with it.

----------


## Thomas Crown

The problem is not just people taking seriously a rumor started by Batman-On-Film. The real problem is clickbait sites doing articles about that. And by the way, is it just me or anyone else here thinks it's funny how these sites always have "sources" inside Warner Bros, but NOBODY have sources inside Disney, Fox, Sony, etc?

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> With this the first real introduction of Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash, how much of the movie is going to be consumed by origin? That's my only worry about them skipping the solos for those characters and doing JL first.


Dialogue can clear more up than you think. It has been done and can be done. BUT, this is why I think BvS and JL should be a saga. BvS should have had parts 1 & 2 and JL should feed into a sequel given the facts that WB/Snyder/Johns are proceeding this way. 

But, that's just me.




> The problem is not just people taking seriously a rumor started by Batman-On-Film. The real problem is clickbait sites doing articles about that. And by the way, is it just me or anyone else here thinks it's funny how these sites always have "sources" inside Warner Bros, but NOBODY have sources inside Disney, Fox, Sony, etc?


Agreed. 
It's always a debacle when the DCEU has re-shoots. 
It's always rumored that every DCEU movie is messy (I loved Patty Jenkins's response to that)
It's always a big conspiracy about the DCEU, one way or another.

Notice we don't have these problems with WB's other properties. 
And the DCEU is a solid 2/4. Man of Steel is a great movie as far as I'm concerned. Wonder Woman was a homerun.
BvS is mixed, I liked it but I can see where others didn't. The only real mess was Suicide Squad.

So, it's clear there is either a person, or some people who are trying to ruin the DCEU. Or at least take pleasure or are paid to drum up negative news about it.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Dialogue can clear more up than you think. It has been done and can be done. BUT, this is why I think BvS and JL should be a saga. BvS should have had parts 1 & 2 and JL should feed into a sequel given the facts that WB/Snyder/Johns are proceeding this way. 
> 
> But, that's just me.


It's not just you; I've been saying this all along.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> It's always a debacle when the DCEU has re-shoots. 
> It's always rumored that every DCEU movie is messy (I loved Patty Jenkins's response to that)
> It's always a big conspiracy about the DCEU, one way or another.
> 
> Notice we don't have these problems with WB's other properties.
> 
> So, it's clear there is either a person, or some people who are trying to ruin the DCEU. Or at least take pleasure or are paid to drum up negative news about it.


Anyone refusing to see the pattern here is just being naive or obtuse on purpose.

For example, take Batman-On-Film. A site run by someone who is admittedly a Snyder/DCEU hater. A site with a history of making up rumors to damage the DCEU's reputation. A site that almost no one takes seriously, except its half dozen followers. But other sites are running with their rumors as confirmed news. FOR GOD'S SAKE!

----------


## Rogue Star

There's one thing I should add about dialogue: it's a double edged sword.  Sure, it's all that's really needed sometimes to help us understand how we got from point A to point B, but it's almost impossible to please everyone with it. It doesn't bother me often but I do understand complaints about movies having too much exposition.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> It's not just you; I've been saying this all along.



Hahaha, you know I was just saying that was my opinion, not saying I was the only one with that idea.
I've come up with some pretty cool fan fic for the "Dawn of Justice" saga, if I may say so myself. Maybe one day I'll post my ideal DoJ saga.

----------


## MadFacedKid

Theres no way there not going in depth with their origins. A big part of caring for a character is going along in their journey and seeing how they grow.

The fact we get scenes of Arthur and Mera first meeting backs this up. And Wonder Woman got a origin story after already having appeared in BvS.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Anyone refusing to see the pattern here is just being naive or obtuse on purpose.
> 
> For example, take Batman-On-Film. A site run by someone who is admittedly a Snyder/DCEU hater. A site with a history of making up rumors to damage the DCEU's reputation. A site that almost no one takes seriously, except its half dozen followers. But other sites are running with their rumors as confirmed news. FOR GOD'S SAKE!


The funny thing BoF a few weeks ago reported that that a "source" told them JL was great or something and rightly so it was unreported but now people are suddenly reporting this JL reshoots things? That is crap. Obviously trying to spread fear especially given the immense success of WW gotta make it so the DCEU is in danger. 

Just like how the SS reshoots were for "humour" then turned out it was 3rd act clean up... which btw I am scared to know what the 3rd act of that film was like before lol.

----------


## C_haos

I like where the DCEU is going one can hope they continue to trend upward

----------


## The Kid

Someone posted this in SuperHeroHype
https://www.buzzfeed.com/DarthFredst...JEM#.lheXJaYXv

It is not perfect but this is a pretty large sample size. Much bigger than you'll probably find anywhere else on the internet. It's a good display of what certain elements of the general public like and dislike about the DCEU so far

----------


## super_posable_joe

Moved to the Wonder Woman Movie Discussion thread.

----------


## Clark_Kent

According to Screenrant, while WB continues to develop the DCEU internally, they are stepping off the gas a bit on announcements and plans until they see how Justice League performs, as well as how Flash & Cyborg are received by the public. More movies still to come, but Justice League will paint a clearer picture of how to proceed. 

http://screenrant.com/justice-league...DCEU&view=list


Edit: before anyone paints this negatively, I should add that this is a good thing. They have around 16 films in various stages of development, but JL reception will help them to decide which films get priorities over others. This backs up my theory that the DCEU is more of a comic universe than a serialized one, and I for one LOVE that. We already have a serialized universe with the MCU, so I'm excited to know that the DCEU isn't just copy/paste.

----------


## JediKage

I don't know how Flash comes across...but I can say Cyborg is DoA

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't know how Flash comes across...but I can say Cyborg is DoA


We've seen him in motion for like 20 seconds so far. How can you be sure? 

Mind you, I have no idea or guess how he'll be (I don't even care for the character), but I think the potential is there for something cool. Snyder is a very visual kind of director, I'd bet we see some cool things with him.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> According to Screenrant, while WB continues to develop the DCEU internally, they are stepping off the gas a bit on announcements and plans until they see how Justice League performs, as well as how Flash & Cyborg are received by the public. More movies still to come, but Justice League will paint a clearer picture of how to proceed. 
> 
> http://screenrant.com/justice-league...DCEU&view=list


Yeah this makes sense and what I assumed would happen.

----------


## El_Gato

https://www.buzzfeed.com/DarthFredst...x1J#.srPK3VRVg

This buzzfeed poll is pretty interesting! Gives us an idea on how the GA feels about the DCEU! Go and vote! Im sure some of the results may surprise you  :Wink:

----------


## The Kid

> https://www.buzzfeed.com/DarthFredst...x1J#.srPK3VRVg
> 
> This buzzfeed poll is pretty interesting! Gives us an idea on how the GA feels about the DCEU! Go and vote! Im sure some of the results may surprise you


Yeah I posted that earlier. Wonder Woman is obviously very popular and BvS is very unpopular. Suicide Squad more divisive but Harley still well liked. Poor Superman though..

----------


## Lightning Rider

I didn't get a single one except WW as best main character lol

----------


## El_Gato

> Yeah I posted that earlier. Wonder Woman is obviously very popular and BvS is very unpopular. Suicide Squad more divisive but Harley still well liked. Poor Superman though..


Lol I skimmed through the thread haha my bad xD and Yeah SS is definitely themoat divisive movie currently in the DCEU. BVS is hated while WW is loved! MOS is forgotten but those who remember it seem to hate it. 

Poor Superman indeed! Lol WW got 10 times the votes he did!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

With The Mummy being released this week, just for fun if Tom Cruise was gonna be cast in the DCEU what character would you like him to portray?

----------


## BlackClaw

> With The Mummy being released this week, just for fun if Tom Cruise was gonna be cast in the DCEU what character would you like him to portray?


Hard to say maybe Metallo or Parasite?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> With The Mummy being released this week, just for fun if Tom Cruise was gonna be cast in the DCEU what character would you like him to portray?


Has Hal written all over him IMO

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Has Hal written all over him IMO


Yeah that is what I was thinking, I would actually be happy if they did that, Cruise likes to do his own stunts so that means they will use CGI as a minimum. Speaking off whoever they get for Hal or whatever Lantern I just hope they give a practical suit.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Yeah that is what I was thinking, I would actually be happy if they did that, Cruise likes to do his own stunts so that means they will use CGI as a minimum. Speaking off whoever they get for Hal or whatever Lantern I just hope they give a practical suit.


Cruise is so old. I didn't know he was still doing all those stunts. Good on him.

----------


## Robotman

> Someone posted this in SuperHeroHype
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/DarthFredst...JEM#.lheXJaYXv
> 
> It is not perfect but this is a pretty large sample size. Much bigger than you'll probably find anywhere else on the internet. It's a good display of what certain elements of the general public like and dislike about the DCEU so far


My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.

For the MoS sequel I hope they find a creative team that truly loves Superman. Both Christopher Nolan and Snyder admitted that they "didn't get Superman" when they started work on MoS. With a movie like Wonder Woman you can tell that Patty Jenkins and co loved the character. That's why I'm hoping for someone like Matthew Vaughn to direct MoS 2. He's a fan of Superman and would treat the mythology with love and respect.

----------


## byrd156

> My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.


Then again it is Buzzfeed.....  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## LordTrump

> Has Hal written all over him IMO


Highball to the danger zone!!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> With The Mummy being released this week, just for fun if Tom Cruise was gonna be cast in the DCEU what character would you like him to portray?


How about Tom Cruise as Dr. Psycho for the Wondy sequel? Him, or Joe Pesci.

In all honesty though I wouldn't mind seeing Cruise as Hal, I'd love to see Cruise take on a villainous role. He'd make a great Riddler, imo.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Cruise is my favorite actor, so I honestly don't care who he'd be playing - just get him in there dammit!! Lol 

But, if I was choosing, then it's easy - he's Hal. Put him in a bomber jacket, flash that famous smile, and you have the perfect Hal Jordan. And his age actually wouldn't be an issue...Batman's been active for 20 years, so who's to say Hal didn't get the ring around the same time? With an entire sector to protect, maybe he just hasn't been ON Earth in a long while.

----------


## El_Gato

> Then again it is Buzzfeed.....


Well buzzfeed is more representative of the GA than a comic forum, especially when the poll has thousands of votes.

I wouldn't doubt.that Superman's popularity is in the toilet. He doesn't have an animated series, a hit video game series and his last 3 movies were either boring, divisive or bad. Then there's Injustice, a very popular video game franchise portraying him as evil, so it's no wonder why his popularity has taken a nose dive.

----------


## The Kid

> Well buzzfeed is more representative of the GA than a comic forum, especially when the poll has thousands of votes.
> 
> I wouldn't doubt.that Superman's popularity is in the toilet. He doesn't have an animated series, a hit video game series and his last 3 movies were either boring, divisive or bad. Then there's Injustice, a very popular video game franchise portraying him as evil, so it's no wonder why his popularity has taken a nose dive.


Exactly that poll had close to 70K votes the last time I checked. That's a massive sample size and far more representative of the average person than the 100+ die hard comic fans we have here on CBR

----------


## The Kid

According the Hollywood Reporter, JLD and Batgirl are the next two movies on WB's slate.

----------


## LordTrump

> How about Tom Cruise as Dr. Psycho for the Wondy sequel? Him, or Joe Pesci.
> 
> In all honesty though I wouldn't mind seeing Cruise as Hal, I'd love to see Cruise take on a villainous role. He'd make a great Riddler, imo.


Tom Cruise as a ugly midget?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.
> 
> For the MoS sequel I hope they find a creative team that truly loves Superman. Both Christopher Nolan and Snyder admitted that they "didn't get Superman" when they started work on MoS. With a movie like Wonder Woman you can tell that Patty Jenkins and co loved the character. That's why I'm hoping for someone like Matthew Vaughn to direct MoS 2. He's a fan of Superman and would treat the mythology with love and respect.


Snyder is sooner guilty of going _too_ deep on Superman's mythology than not far enough. The man knows Superman, he just didn't compensate showing his negative emotions with enough likeable feel-good scenes that made casual audiences care for this Superman.

----------


## Triple J

> My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.
> 
> For the MoS sequel I hope they find a creative team that truly loves Superman. Both Christopher Nolan and Snyder admitted that they "didn't get Superman" when they started work on MoS. With a movie like Wonder Woman you can tell that Patty Jenkins and co loved the character. That's why I'm hoping for someone like Matthew Vaughn to direct MoS 2. He's a fan of Superman and would treat the mythology with love and respect.





> Snyder is sooner guilty of going _too_ deep on Superman's mythology than not far enough. The man knows Superman, he just didn't compensate showing his negative emotions with enough likeable feel-good scenes that made casual audiences care for this Superman.


Pretty much. I don't find that as much of a problem, but I realize WB needs that mass appeal for future films (and more money). Here's hoping Snyder was able to work that in without compromising his vision  :Smile: 

(He was able to accomplish that in MOS, IMO. Some of the scenes are just amazing...like flight. He just needs to do more of that, which I think he will. MOS was Clark's starting to become Superman, BvS was about world's reaction to Superman, JL I hope is the culmination of Clark becoming Superman  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Kid

Current assessment of what I think will happen

2018: Aquaman
2019: Justice League Dark, Batgirl
2020: The Batman, Wonder Woman 2, TBD

I'm starting to think Affleck might be done after Justice League

----------


## byrd156

> Current assessment of what I think will happen
> 
> 2018: Aquaman
> 2019: Justice League Dark, Batgirl
> 2020: The Batman, Wonder Woman 2, TBD
> 
> I'm starting to think Affleck might be done after Justice League


No way Affleck is gonna quit as Batman after JL.

----------


## Robotman

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/justic...ad-ass-amazons

Connie Nielsen and Robin Wright will appear in Justice League! Most likely during the flashback sequence of the Amazons fighting the hordes of Apokolips. I loved Wright's Antiope so I'm psyched to hear this!

----------


## Korath

> Current assessment of what I think will happen
> 
> 2018: Aquaman
> 2019: Justice League Dark, Batgirl
> 2020: The Batman, Wonder Woman 2, TBD
> 
> I'm starting to think Affleck might be done after Justice League


I don't see Affleck leaving before The Batman. Now, I may see his Batman dying in the Justice League vs Darkseid since the first film is (as far as I know) centred around Steppenwolf and Nightwing replacing him (hopefully not as Batman but as the new normal human in the team).

----------


## dietrich

> My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.
> 
> For the MoS sequel I hope they find a creative team that truly loves Superman. Both Christopher Nolan and Snyder admitted that they "didn't get Superman" when they started work on MoS. With a movie like Wonder Woman you can tell that Patty Jenkins and co loved the character. That's why I'm hoping for someone like Matthew Vaughn to direct MoS 2. He's a fan of Superman and would treat the mythology with love and respect.


My take away is that the WW movie is recent this poll should have been done months from now.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah I posted that earlier. Wonder Woman is obviously very popular and BvS is very unpopular. Suicide Squad more divisive but Harley still well liked. Poor Superman though..


The critics obviously influenced thousands of people to vote against BvS.

Though I'm astounded at the popularity of Leto's godawful Joker.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> My take away is that the WW movie is recent this poll should have been done months from now.

----------


## Bukdiah

> The* critics obviously influenced thousands of people to vote against BvS.*
> 
> Though I'm astounded at the popularity of Leto's godawful Joker.


Or it could've just been a really crappy movie? I agree on your second point. Some people say he may have potential if given more screen time, but I just thought Leto was doing a parody of the character because of how butt he was.

----------


## The Kid

> The critics obviously influenced thousands of people to vote against BvS.
> 
> Though I'm astounded at the popularity of Leto's godawful Joker.


I have a feeling Ledgers version of the character was so good that Leto is feeling the effects.. also the other villains aren't that great either so that might be why. I hope DCEU improves their quality of villains in future cause I feel Zod has been the only decent one

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.
> 
> For the MoS sequel I hope they find a creative team that truly loves Superman. Both Christopher Nolan and Snyder admitted that they "didn't get Superman" when they started work on MoS. With a movie like Wonder Woman you can tell that Patty Jenkins and co loved the character. That's why I'm hoping for someone like Matthew Vaughn to direct MoS 2. He's a fan of Superman and would treat the mythology with love and respect.


Have you got anything to back that quote with? First time I'm hearing this.

----------


## The Kid

> No way Affleck is gonna quit as Batman after JL.


We'll see. At most, he has one movie left as Batman after Justice League since he'd be 50 by the time there were any sequels. If they're gonna end up recasting soon anyway, I'd rather them do it before the Batman series instead of doing it in the middle

I also don't think his heart has been in Batman for a while now. We'll see in the years after JL comes out

----------


## The Kid

> With The Mummy being released this week, just for fun if Tom Cruise was gonna be cast in the DCEU what character would you like him to portray?


Funny enough, Tom Cruise almost played Iron Man back in 2008! Imagine that alternate universe. The MCU is probably nowhere near as big as it is today if that goes down. Shows the power of casting properly I guess

To answer the question, I don't think Cruise should play a main superhero anymore. Maybe a villain though

----------


## Vanguard-01

> We'll see. At most, he has one movie left as Batman after Justice League since he'd be 50 by the time there were any sequels. If they're gonna end up recasting soon anyway, I'd rather them do it before the Batman series instead of doing it in the middle
> 
> I also don't think his heart has been in Batman for a while now. We'll see in the years after JL comes out


His heart wasn't in ANYTHING a little while ago when he was going through rehab to overcome his bout with alcoholism. 

Now that he is supposedly recovered? Pretty sure he's already talked about how much fun it is playing Batman. Seems to me like he's not going anywhere.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Saw this online, I couldn't resist: 

IMG_2777.JPG

----------


## Rogue Star

> I have a feeling Ledgers version of the character was so good that Leto is feeling the effects.. also the other villains aren't that great either so that might be why. I hope DCEU improves their quality of villains in future cause I feel Zod has been the only decent one


I thought what little I saw from Jerome on Gotham was better than what Leto did.




> Saw this online, I couldn't resist: 
> 
> IMG_2777.JPG


Funny as Hell .

----------


## Lightning Rider

Haha, that is great.

----------


## ekrolo2

What're the odds JL gets delayed?

----------


## Punisher007

I can see the logic behind fast-tracking Batgirl at least.  Capitalize off of WW's success as soon as possible by putting out another female-led superhero film.  Get Joss Whedon fresh off of his work on JL.  

And, and granted this depends on how they choose to do it, a Batgirl movie shouldn't be that expensive or time-consuming to make as compared to many of the others.  I mean the character is almost tailor-made for a smaller more "street level" story, especially in a first film.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I have a feeling Ledgers version of the character was so good that Leto is feeling the effects.. also the other villains aren't that great either so that might be why. I hope DCEU improves their quality of villains in future cause I feel Zod has been the only decent one


It really felt like Leto was trying too hard to make Joker his own and avoid any comparison to Ledger's that he missed the mark entirely.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Or it could've just been a really crappy movie? I agree on your second point. Some people say he may have potential if given more screen time, but I just thought Leto was doing a parody of the character because of how butt he was.


It was sarcasm

----------


## darkseidpwns

What is the accuracy of 4chan rumors concerning the DCEU?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> What're the odds JL gets delayed?


Very low. 

10chars

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> What is the accuracy of 4chan rumors concerning the DCEU?


What are the rumors?

----------


## The Kid

> What is the accuracy of 4chan rumors concerning the DCEU?


I don't know what these rumors are but it's probably BS

Mark Hughes saying that JL reshoots can be up to 7 weeks.. wow that's incredibly long. I wouldn't act like the sky is falling but that's not exactly positive news
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#31bfc4bdd418

----------


## Dominick1216

> We'll see. At most, he has one movie left as Batman after Justice League since he'd be 50 by the time there were any sequels. If they're gonna end up recasting soon anyway, I'd rather them do it before the Batman series instead of doing it in the middle
> 
> I also don't think his heart has been in Batman for a while now. We'll see in the years after JL comes out


Being 50 doesn't mean anything. Look at Robert Downey, Jr., he was around 41 when he filmed the first _Iron Man_. Now, he's 51 and filming his 7th Marvel film. Ben Affleck was 41 when he filmed BvS. He could absolutely still play Batman in his 50's, no doubt.

----------


## nightbird

> Being 50 doesn't mean anything. Look at Robert Downey, Jr., he was around 41 when he filmed the first _Iron Man_. Now, he's 51 and filming his 7th Marvel film. Ben Affleck was 41 when he filmed BvS. He could absolutely still play Batman in his 50's, no doubt.


To be fair, Downey doesn't need to work out for the role or perform difficult stunts like other actors. I don't think though, that we need to worry about Ben leaving for at least next 5-7 years.

----------


## Dominick1216

> To be fair, Downey doesn't need to work out for the role or perform difficult stunts like other actors. I don't think though, that we need to worry about Ben leaving for at least next 5-7 years.


You're right. But yeah, Batfleck is gonna be sticking around for a while.  :Smile:

----------


## Arsenal

Assuming the solo batman movie is set inuniverse sometime after BvS/Justice League, I'm hoping it involves the introduction/reformation of the batfamily. Doesn't even have to be the whole gang, just Nightwing & Batgirl would be enough to start it off before expanding on it further in later movies.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I don't know what these rumors are but it's probably BS
> 
> Mark Hughes saying that JL reshoots can be up to 7 weeks.. wow that's incredibly long. I wouldn't act like the sky is falling but that's not exactly positive news
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#31bfc4bdd418


If JL is poorly reviewed it will be on Snyder... if it is positively reviewed it will be on Whedon.  I'm not saying that it is right, but it is what it is.

----------


## byrd156

> We'll see. At most, he has one movie left as Batman after Justice League since he'd be 50 by the time there were any sequels. If they're gonna end up recasting soon anyway, I'd rather them do it before the Batman series instead of doing it in the middle
> 
> I also don't think his heart has been in Batman for a while now. We'll see in the years after JL comes out


No way WB would sign Ben Affleck as Batman and have him only show up in three movies, the DCEU has just started.

----------


## The Kid

> No way WB would sign Ben Affleck as Batman and have him only show up in three movies, the DCEU has just started.


Didn't Gal Gadot only sign a 3 film deal? She about to get paaaaaaiid

----------


## nightbird

> Assuming the solo batman movie is set inuniverse sometime after BvS/Justice League, I'm hoping it involves the introduction/reformation of the batfamily. Doesn't even have to be the whole gang, just Nightwing & Batgirl would be enough to start it off before expanding on it further in later movies.


I honestly doubt they will go further than Batgirl and Nightwing (maybe also Jason/Red Hood). I'm not sure they want to add even Robin (Tim or Damian).

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I've been thinking for a while that Affleck is done after The Batman. And honestly, that's all I'll ask of him. 
I'm not sure if he's contractually signed for Justice League 2 (maybe someone answered that, I haven't gone back to look). 

They better integrate his leaving into the universe somehow. Whether they bring in an offer a different version of Azrael, or something… But yea, I highly doubt Affleck stays on for more than 1-2 more films.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Not sure why Ben would leave at all. At his age staying put as Batman is easy income while he works on his own projects. 

Anyway JL is gonna be fine, I don't think it'll be an immense success like WW but I think it'll be better received critically than MoS and BvS. With SW coming out though JL has about a month to make bank,  it's doable. 

Civil War started additional photography in Jan and the film was complete by April. Funnily enough the internet didn't blow up about that, just saying.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't know what these rumors are but it's probably BS
> 
> Mark Hughes saying that JL reshoots can be up to 7 weeks.. wow that's incredibly long. I wouldn't act like the sky is falling but that's not exactly positive news
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#31bfc4bdd418


Considering the reshoots (so far) involve Cavill & Gadot, it's a fair assumption it may involve others as well. Considering they are spread out across the globe all working on different projects, it may take 7 weeks just to get everybody in. Remember, these aren't just reshoots involving scenery or stunt doubles; these are also to do NEW scenes. Whedon was originally brought on to write them. 

In my mind, it doesn't mean JL is in trouble; as they've said, Zach edited together the rough cut (studio cut? The term escapes me) and premiered it for the brass. After watching it all together, Snyder said it needed a few things here and there to help it flow & transition better. This happens all of the time with big productions. If movies were shot in sequence, with every scene in order, you probably would never see reshoots / additional shots done at all because these "missing pieces" would be more apparent during filming. Shooting out of sequence, sometimes gaps go unnoticed. 

Reshoots happen with EVERY big budget blockbuster, but people only ever seem to panic when it involves a WB/DC film.

----------


## Badou

> Not sure why Ben would leave at all. At his age staying put as Batman is easy income while he works on his own projects.


That isn't true. It is a big commitment. He has to work out a lot to keep in shape for the role and probably has to eat a strict diet. Then there is all the press requirement for being involved in these big movies.

----------


## Bukdiah

> That isn't true. It is a big commitment. He has to work out a lot to keep in shape for the role and probably has to eat a strict diet. Then there is all the press requirement for being involved in these big movies.


That is true, but I think I watched a Youtube video with Affleck's fitness trainer for BvS. They literally trained to make him look great for that one shirtless scene. Ben can take it easier when he has that costume on him. However, his trainer also said that Ben went all in during his training regardless.

----------


## signalman112

After 3 lackluster movies WBDC finally its a HOMERUN with WW.  Gets a solid 'A' from me.
Kudos to all involved. 
Special shout out to Zack Snyder who helped draft the script, produced it with his wife, and had a cameo as a soldier.

I would love to see George Clooney playing King Faraday in the SUICIDE SQUAD 2 or in his own film called DANGER TRAIL.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> My take away from the poll is that Superman's popularity is in the toilet.
> 
> For the MoS sequel I hope they find a creative team that truly loves Superman. Both Christopher Nolan and Snyder admitted that they "didn't get Superman" when they started work on MoS. With a movie like Wonder Woman you can tell that Patty Jenkins and co loved the character. That's why I'm hoping for someone like Matthew Vaughn to direct MoS 2. He's a fan of Superman and would treat the mythology with love and respect.


Zack Snyder does love Superman, but went in a non-traditional direction. As good as WW is, the movie is far more simple than both MoS and BvS:UE.

The First Flight scene alone proves that he loves Superman.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> We'll see. At most, he has one movie left as Batman after Justice League since he'd be 50 by the time there were any sequels. If they're gonna end up recasting soon anyway, I'd rather them do it before the Batman series instead of doing it in the middle
> 
> I also don't think his heart has been in Batman for a while now. We'll see in the years after JL comes out


I think him being Batman in the first solo movie, but then dying in JL2 sets up a good dilema for the sequel.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't know what these rumors are but it's probably BS
> 
> Mark Hughes saying that JL reshoots can be up to 7 weeks.. wow that's incredibly long. I wouldn't act like the sky is falling but that's not exactly positive news
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#31bfc4bdd418


To be fair, they did halt work on the movie since March.

----------


## Punisher007

> Didn't Gal Gadot only sign a 3 film deal? She about to get paaaaaaiid


Patty Jenkins as well.  She has pretty much all of the leverage now during contract negotiations.

----------


## nightbird

Someone needs to help Patty Jenkins with filming action scenes in next WW movie.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Zack Snyder does love Superman, but went in a non-traditional direction. As good as WW is, the movie is far more simple than both MoS and BvS:UE.


It is better to be simple with a clear direction than to try and be deep and not succeed... MOS tried very hard to be deep with its heavy handed savior imagery.  BvS tried to combine two major comic stories into one and a similar mistake could be made with Justice League.  It is good to be ambitious and great if you can pull it off.  However ambition is often not enough... you have to execute.  The execution script wise in MOS and BvS was flawed.  I know people at many different departments at Warner Brothers and DC Entertainment... trust me BvS was nowhere near as successful as they had hoped it would be.

----------


## Punisher007

> Someone needs to help Patty Jenkins with filming action scenes in next WW movie.


No not really.

----------


## nightbird

> No not really.


Yes. There were a lot of sloppy action moments.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> It is better to be simple with a clear direction than to try and be deep and not succeed... MOS tried very hard to be deep with its heavy handed savior imagery.  BvS tried to combine two major comic stories into one and a similar mistake could be made with Justice League.  It is good to be ambitious and great if you can pull it off.  However ambition is often not enough... you have to execute.  The execution script wise in MOS and BvS was flawed.  I know people at many different departments at Warner Brothers and DC Entertainment... trust me BvS was nowhere near as successful as they had hoped it would be.


And have you heard any level of confidence that those things have been fixed for Justice League from those same contacts at WB?

----------


## Triple J

> It is better to be simple with a clear direction than to try and be deep and not succeed... MOS tried very hard to be deep with its heavy handed savior imagery.  BvS tried to combine two major comic stories into one and a similar mistake could be made with Justice League.  It is good to be ambitious and great if you can pull it off.  However ambition is often not enough... you have to execute.  The execution script wise in MOS and BvS was flawed.  I know people at many different departments at Warner Brothers and DC Entertainment... trust me BvS was nowhere near as successful as they had hoped it would be.


I prefer something to be ambitious (even if it fails), rather than stick with simple and succeed (of course, the definition of success in itself matters). I don't care too much about the profits (but I do realize that plays a role in whether WB makes more DCEU movies).

Success to me is being able to satisfy myself - or my tastes. And Both MOS and BvS managed to do that. It's a shame it didn't work for others. But, whatever. Like I mentioned earlier, I hope WB lets Snyder do his thing. I have no worries about the tone or message overall, since JL is going to be lighter (something they stated even before BvS came out).

I did hear something interesting....apparently WW originally had two cuts, and in one

*spoilers:*
Diana walked away from humanity after realizing that they were the ones responsible for the war, rather than Ares. It's different from the current cut
*end of spoilers*

Imagine the reviews if they had done that?

Btw, have you heard anything about the JL reshoots?

----------


## Frontier

I can respect something with ambition, though more often then not I don't enjoy it as much as I would like.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

So question, how do you think they address World War 2?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So question, how do you think they address World War 2?


Option 1: Diana missed WWII because she returned home and time got away from her. Hippolyta only said Diana "MAY never come back again." She could've just been saying Diana may die on her mission. No firm forbidding of Diana's return.

Option 2: Diana remained in Man's World for WWII, but the events of WWI taught her that putting on a brightly colored outfit and fighting professional soldiers with a sword wasn't a good idea. Thus? She worked behind the scenes in a more covert way. This is supported by the fact that Steve's team specialized in such missions and they really liked Diana. They'd probably be more than willing to train her how to be more covert.

Option 3: Diana was otherwise occupied during WWII. Maybe she was dealing with a problem in another dimension or realm of existence or something. 

Option 4: In classic DC lore, Hitler kept the JSA from invading Germany with the Spear of Destiny. Maybe he did the same thing to keep Diana from intervening directly. 

Any of these would work. Heck, some of them are even "stackable."

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Mark Hughes with some great analysis. 
He suggests this movie could get to right around $700 million (for comparison, none of the MCU's solo origin films have topped Ironman's $585 million until the 13th -or 14th- film Doctor Strange, and that made $677 million).
But, that's optimistic. It appears most estimates are still putting this movie everywhere in the $600 millions.

He also talks about the DCEU's box office returns as a whole. Worth your time: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#25ab52f816fb

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Zack Snyder does love Superman, but went in a non-traditional direction. As good as WW is, the movie is far more simple than both MoS and BvS:UE.
> 
> The First Flight scene alone proves that he loves Superman.


He's said Superman is favorite superhero and I agree it shows. 
I disagree about WW being simpler than BvS and MoS, I think it's just as bold as those two, only difference is we hadn't had a WW movie before.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> And have you heard any level of confidence that those things have been fixed for Justice League from those same contacts at WB?


The confidence seems to come from the addition of Gadot, Mamoa, and Miller.  Most would be shocked if it got the same type of reception as Wonder Woman... but there is confidence that it will be better received that the other Snyder movies.  Like I've said on here before the Snyder name just isn't the most popular in the industry.   It is unfair but everyone I talk to acts as if he can do no right and all the good things will come from the work of others.  




> I prefer something to be ambitious (even if it fails), rather than stick with simple and succeed (of course, the definition of success in itself matters). I don't care too much about the profits (but I do realize that plays a role in whether WB makes more DCEU movies).
> 
> Success to me is being able to satisfy myself - or my tastes. And Both MOS and BvS managed to do that. It's a shame it didn't work for others. But, whatever. Like I mentioned earlier, I hope WB lets Snyder do his thing. I have no worries about the tone or message overall, since JL is going to be lighter (something they stated even before BvS came out).
> 
> I did hear something interesting....apparently WW originally had two cuts, and in one
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Diana walked away from humanity after realizing that they were the ones responsible for the war, rather than Ares. It's different from the current cut
> *end of spoilers*
> ...



Everything I've heard is in line with the Forbes report.  Except for one thing... the length of the reshoots is a bit longer that usual.  It makes some think that they are tying up loose story points.  Some think it is to add more Wonder Woman and Flash.  I will say this... the BvS reception spooked WB kind of like Maverick got spooked in Top Gun.  The talk that BvS gets from other directors, writers, and actors is rarely good.

The whole Whedon situation kind of reminds me of the Iron Man 3 reshoots that no one ever seems to report.  I wasn't there personally, but I know a few who were.  Shane Black was there but he wasn't really the one directing the reshoots.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Meanwhile? Geoff Johns seems confident. :Smile: 

*5 Best Superman Moments Of The DCEU So Far*

Also this:

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Meanwhile? Geoff Johns seems confident.
> 
> *5 Best Superman Moments Of The DCEU So Far*
> 
> Also this:


Johns is one of the people who will be getting a lot of the credit for changes to the DCEU... and it is probably rightfully so.

----------


## Rogue Star

> The whole Whedon situation kind of reminds me of the Iron Man 3 reshoots that no one ever seems to report.  I wasn't there personally, but I know a few who were.  Shane Black was there but he wasn't really the one directing the reshoots.


Could this be related to the Mandarin reveal, maybe?  

I know that Shane Black eventually came out and said that the Mandarin was supposed to be female (the woman who ended up being shot was the real Mandarin) but ol' Ike Permutter stepped in and squashed it because "they can't sell toys with a female villain". It's funny because they never ended up selling any toys of the real Mandarin anyway.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Could this be related to the Mandarin reveal, maybe?  
> 
> I know that Shane Black eventually came out and said that the Mandarin was supposed to be female (the woman who ended up being shot was the real Mandarin) but ol' Ike Permutter stepped in and squashed it because "they can't sell toys with a female villain". It's funny because they never ended up selling any toys of the real Mandarin anyway.


This part actually wasn't.  I was told that Shane Black was there but really in "la la land" while another person (who shouldn't be surprsing) directed the reshoots.

People on here who keep saying that reshoots are normal... are very much correct.  The length of these reshoots are a little bit longer but I would be more concerned about the scrapping of JL part 2 and adding aspects of it to JL more of a concern.  That is... if that is actually what is happening.

----------


## Rogue Star

I'm curious about this merger. I was under the impression that Darkseid was going to be the villain in Justice League 2 but if they're folding some of that movie into part 1 and scrapping part 2, what happens with Darkseid? Is Darkseid what's being moved to part 1? 

What I expect these reshoots to do is bring more of that Wonder Woman flavor to Justice League. It's OBVIOUS to us all that they want to try and recapture what made people respond well to it. I don't think Snyder's vision of this movie will be left mostly untouched because success is more important than his vision, and I think WB announcing that the slate is being put on hold until they see the reception to Justice League confirms my belief that they value success more than honoring Snyder's vision of the movie. I know Snyder is said to have expressed his intent to take Justice League in a more "positive" direction before Batman v Superman was released but that doesn't mean his idea of "positive" was deemed positive enough by WB after seeing the reaction to Wonder Woman.  Joss Whedon is going to do more than button up the movie, in my opinion.  What happened in Snyder's life is sad but at the end of the day, business is business.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Meanwhile? Geoff Johns seems confident.
> 
> *5 Best Superman Moments Of The DCEU So Far*
> 
> Also this:


Been saying forever but Supes return in JL is gonna be the most epic thing ever in any film, Snyder and co been quietly teasing it for a while and not giving too much away. I think it was genuinely a smart move to have Superman die in BvS and need for Batman and WW to form the JL, it is hard to form the league when you have a guy that can do everything and so that why by showing the vulnerability of the league and why the league *needs* Superman _is_ the ultimate love letter to Superman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm curious about this merger. I was under the impression that Darkseid was going to be the villain in Justice League 2 but if they're folding some of that movie into part 1 and scrapping part 2, what happens with Darkseid? Is Darkseid what's being moved to part 1?


Odds are, they'll save Darkseid for the next JL movie or maybe even the one after that.

I've said it before, Darkseid should very much adhere to the "Jaws Principle." He should not be seen right away. He should be FELT, rather than seen. His presence should be tangible, but he shouldn't appear until it's time for a major escalation of the story. Having him appear in the first JL movie ever always seemed like a bad idea to me. 




> What I expect these reshoots to do is bring more of that Wonder Woman flavor to Justice League. It's OBVIOUS to us all that they want to try and recapture what made people respond well to it. I don't think Snyder's vision of this movie will be left mostly untouched because success is more important than his vision, and I think WB announcing that the slate is being put on hold until they see the reception to Justice League confirms my belief that they value success more than honoring Snyder's vision of the movie. I know Snyder is said to have expressed his intent to take Justice League in a more "positive" direction before Batman v Superman was released but that doesn't mean his idea of "positive" was deemed positive enough by WB after seeing the reaction to Wonder Woman.  Joss Whedon is going to do more than button up the movie, in my opinion.  What happened in Snyder's life is sad but at the end of the day, business is business.


I think we can definitely be sure there will be more Wonder Woman in the movie and they may definitely adopt some of the more successful ideas as well. 

Snyder was talking about more positivity a long, long time ago. Superman's sacrifice is the perfect setup for a positive upswing. I really don't think there was anything to worry about with Snyder's vision. It may get changed somewhat, but I don't think it'll be completely abandoned.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Been saying forever but Supes return in JL is gonna be the most epic thing ever in any film, Snyder and co been quietly teasing it for a while and not giving too much away. I think it was genuinely a smart move to have Superman die in BvS and need for Batman and WW to form the JL, it is hard to form the league when you have a guy that can do everything and so that why by showing the vulnerability of the league and why the league *needs* Superman _is_ the ultimate love letter to Superman.


Exactly. The whole "You don't know how much you need him until you don't have him" thing. 

Also? Forming the League would've been too easy with him involved. Unless Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman are utterly cynical people who are completely hostile to the idea of Superman, there's no reason why they wouldn't want to work alongside the great hero who saved the world twice? And we KNOW Barry isn't cynical at all. He probably would've nerdgasmed at the mere thought of working with Superman. If you want any kind of team building drama, it stands to reason having two people who the other Leaguers-to-be don't know or trust is more likely to generate that.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Johns is one of the people who will be getting a lot of the credit for changes to the DCEU... and it is probably rightfully so.


I'd rather give credit to people like Zack Snyder, Patty Jenkins and Chris Terrio than the guy who does nothing but talk about "hope and optimism", while praising every mediocre MCU movie that comes out.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'd rather give credit to people like Zack Snyder, Patty Jenkins and Chris Terrio than the guy who does nothing but talk about "hope and optimism", while praising every mediocre MCU movie that comes out.


He does a bit more than that, and praising MCU movies means nothing. There is no actual conflict between Marvel and DC outside the fanbases. All the congratulatory tweets we saw from various MCU actors and directors regarding Wonder Woman'ssuccess are proof of that. 

Johns was involved in every level of production for Wonder Woman and will likely be similarly involved in most future DCEU movies. He deserves credit for helping the DCEU change direction.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> All the congratulatory tweets we saw from various MCU actors and directors regarding Wonder Woman's success are proof of that.


But I wonder why we didn't see all these "congratulatory tweets" during the release of previous DCEU movies.




> He deserves credit for helping the DCEU change direction.


Well, I just hope that this "new direction" doesn't include turning the DCEU into a Silver Age wankfest and the DCEU Superman into another bland rehashing of Christopher Reeve's version.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Well, I just hope that this "new direction" doesn't include turning the DCEU into a Silver Age wankfest and the DCEU Superman into another bland rehashing of Christopher Reeve's version.


WWs helped give Johns some cred with me but I wouldn't be surprised if wanking Reeve's is precisely where Superman goes in his coming film appearances.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> WWs helped give Johns some cred with me but I wouldn't be surprised if wanking Reeve's is precisely where Superman goes in his coming film appearances.


I seriously doubt he will go full boy-scout mode like Reeve's character did (more than the actual character was portrayed in the comics, FWIW), but he will be definitely be moving in that direction.

----------


## LordTrump

> WWs helped give Johns some cred with me but I wouldn't be surprised if wanking Reeve's is precisely where Superman goes in his coming film appearances.


Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I'd rather give credit to people like Zack Snyder, Patty Jenkins and Chris Terrio than the guy who does nothing but talk about "hope and optimism", while praising every mediocre MCU movie that comes out.


Snyder and Terrio deserve credit for what exactly? creating a terrible film? creating boring versions of Batman and Superman? for outright failing to create a passable movie for years? even MOS is only as high it is because of Nolan. Snyder is Bay minus the box office power. 
DCEU should invest in Jenkins, Reeves, Whedon and Wan.

----------


## Triple J

> But I wonder why we didn't see all these "congratulatory tweets" during the release of previous DCEU movies.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I just hope that this "new direction" doesn't include turning the DCEU into a Silver Age wankfest and the DCEU Superman into another bland rehashing of Christopher Reeve's version.





> WWs helped give Johns some cred with me but I wouldn't be surprised if wanking Reeve's is precisely where Superman goes in his coming film appearances.


I hope not..because if they do that, I will be done with DCEU (at least Superman films; I am still excited for Wan's Aquaman).




> Snyder and Terrio deserve credit for what exactly? creating a terrible film? creating boring versions of Batman and Superman? for outright failing to create a passable movie for years? even MOS is only as high it is because of Nolan. Snyder is Bay minus the box office power. 
> DCEU should invest in Jenkins, Reeves, Whedon and Wan.


Boring to you, but interesting to me, so I do believe they deserve credit.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

My long interest in the DCEU only extends to Aquaman. After that I'll be taking a more casual approach to it like I do MCU, I don't watch every MCU film now. 

Between MoS, BvS, WW and then JL and AM I'll be more tham satisfied and don't care what direction they go then.

----------


## The Kid

> Snyder and Terrio deserve credit for what exactly? creating a terrible film? creating boring versions of Batman and Superman? for outright failing to create a passable movie for years? even MOS is only as high it is because of Nolan. Snyder is Bay minus the box office power. 
> DCEU should invest in Jenkins, Reeves, Whedon and Wan.


And amen!!

----------


## Serpico Jones

I know that he is disgraced but Devin Faraci said in his letterboxd review that his sources told him that Geoff Johns did a lot of uncredited work on the script for Wonder Woman, fwiw.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I know that he is disgraced but Devin Faraci said in his letterboxd review that his sources told him that Geoff Johns did a lot of uncredited work on the script for Wonder Woman, fwiw.


We already knew. He's wasn't credited in the film except for EP but we knew prior and Roven then said after the film that Heinberg couldn't finish the script due to other projects and Johns filled in but he couldn't get credit. Likewise Whedon will probably go uncredited for JL.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Snyder and Terrio deserve credit for what exactly? creating a terrible film? creating boring versions of Batman and Superman? for outright failing to create a passable movie for years? even MOS is only as high it is because of Nolan. Snyder is Bay minus the box office power. 
> DCEU should invest in Jenkins, Reeves, Whedon and Wan.


Snyder created a pretty strong footing for Patty's WW. Cast Gal, laid out a story, produced the film but then left her to her own thing. The samething is happening with Wan and Aquman. 

Ya'll quick to talk smack about his two films but then don't give him then credit for the work he did on WW. 

Snyder is a great filmmaker it sucks you didn't like BvS and MoS but let's not act like they are objectively terrible. 

Snyder might not have "box office power" but he certainly has after sales market power,  which a lot of people ignore and underestimate thinking everything is about BO and that is the be all and end all of success.

----------


## The Kid

Patty on writing the script of 'Wonder Woman'
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...v8t/?context=3

I think Johns played a HUGE role in this movie's success. Hope he has a bigger role going forward

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Boring to you, but interesting to me, so I do believe they deserve credit.


The idea that a majority of people thought the Snyder films were bad is just flat-out wrong. That doesn't mean they thought they were great, either, but the general audience didn't mind them nearly as much as some would want us to believe.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> Patty on writing the script of 'Wonder Woman'
> https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...v8t/?context=3
> 
> I think Johns played a HUGE role in this movie's success. Hope he has a bigger role going forward


I hope so too.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Patty on writing the script of 'Wonder Woman'
> https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...v8t/?context=3
> 
> I think Johns played a HUGE role in this movie's success. Hope he has a bigger role going forward


It's pretty much a guarantee his role is big from JL on.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Snyder created a pretty strong footing for Patty's WW. Cast Gal, laid out a story, produced the film but then left her to her own thing. The samething is happening with Wan and Aquman. 
> 
> Ya'll quick to talk smack about his two films but then don't give him then credit for the work he did on WW. 
> 
> Snyder is a great filmmaker it sucks you didn't like BvS and MoS but let's not act like they are objectively terrible. 
> 
> Snyder might not have "box office power" but he certainly has after sales market power,  which a lot of people ignore and underestimate thinking everything is about BO and that is the be all and end all of success.


Snyder's best moments have actually been his casting decisions for his heroes.  He made the right choice with Gal.  He also is responsible for casting Mamoa and Miller.  At the same time... he also cast Eisenberg.  

He does deserve a little credit for Wonder Women since he cast Gal.  Heinberg, Johns, and Jenkins still deserve the vast majority of the credit for the Wonder Woman story and execution.  Don't be surprised if the stronger upcoming DCEU movies are the ones not directed by Snyder.  I'm cautiously optimistic about Justice League since Snyder wasn't given the same amount of control that  he was given with BvS.  Johns involvement  with JL is a very good thing.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I'd rather give credit to people like Zack Snyder, Patty Jenkins and Chris Terrio than the guy who does nothing but talk about "hope and optimism", while praising every mediocre MCU movie that comes out.


How about giving him credit because he *co-wrote the script* with Heinberg?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> But I wonder why we didn't see all these "congratulatory tweets" during the release of previous DCEU movies.


Because...they weren't that good.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Snyder's best moments have actually been his casting decisions for his heroes.  He made the right choice with Gal.  He also is responsible for casting Mamoa and Miller.  At the same time... he also cast Eisenberg.  
> 
> He does deserve a little credit for Wonder Women since he cast Gal.  Heinberg, Johns, and Jenkins still deserve the vast majority of the credit for the Wonder Woman story and execution.  Don't be surprised if the stronger upcoming DCEU movies are the ones not directed by Snyder.  I'm cautiously optimistic about Justice League since Snyder wasn't given the same amount of control that  he was given with BvS.  Johns involvement  with JL is a very good thing.


^^^^^spot on.

----------


## The Kid

There's a chance Wonder Woman might have a higher grossing second weekend than Batman v Superman.. and that opened to almost 60 million more

This right here shows the difference between positive and negative word of mouth for audiences. It's the difference between your audience loving a movie and straight up disliking it. WoM for Wonder Woman is incredible right now!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There's a chance Wonder Woman might have a higher grossing second weekend than Batman v Superman.. and that opened to almost 60 million more
> 
> This right here shows the difference between positive and negative word of mouth for audiences. It's the difference between your audience loving a movie and straight up disliking it. WoM for Wonder Woman is incredible right now!


Of course word of mouth helps, but if an opening week is a big enough, you can get by the multiplier problem. The Transformer films, i.e., do it all the time.

----------


## Korath

> Snyder and Terrio deserve credit for what exactly? creating a terrible film? creating boring versions of Batman and Superman? for outright failing to create a passable movie for years? even MOS is only as high it is because of Nolan. Snyder is Bay minus the box office power. 
> DCEU should invest in Jenkins, Reeves, Whedon and Wan.


BvS is vastly superior in all points to even Wonder Woman. Yes, it's a film which actually requires the viewers to engage with it and think, not simply watch it, but that's a strength not a weakness. Wonder Woman is a good movie, but that's it. BvS is a great one, despite the unjustified hatred it suffers.

----------


## Johnny

> Patty on writing the script of 'Wonder Woman'
> https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...v8t/?context=3
> 
> I think Johns played a HUGE role in this movie's success. Hope he has a bigger role going forward


Geoff Johns is going to get a LOT of leverage from the success of this movie. We all knew WW was going to make money anyway, but the studio desperately needed a critical hit and Johns is now firmly associated with that. I'm suddenly a bit more hopeful about Green Lantern's future in the DCEU, you know Johns loves his boy. lol

----------


## The Kid

> Of course word of mouth helps, but if an opening week is a big enough, you can get by the multiplier problem. The Transformer films, i.e., do it all the time.


That doesn't really solve the multiplier problem. That just hinders your movie from making more money. BvS with its opening weekend should have made well over a billion dollars. And the Transformers movies have been falling domestically for a while now. Hope DCEU doesn't follow their lead. Not to mention, DC is not as popular internationally as the Transformers series so it's not the same thing anyway




> BvS is vastly superior in all points to even Wonder Woman. Yes, it's a film which actually requires the viewers to engage with it and think, not simply watch it, but that's a strength not a weakness. Wonder Woman is a good movie, but that's it. BvS is a great one, despite the unjustified hatred it suffers.


No it really isn't. The 'themes' in BvS were about as unsubtle as a sledgehammer to the kneecap. Throwing blatant messianic imagery and Jesus references doesn't make your movie particularly deep. Your average Phil 101 class would come up with something similar. The idea that people just didn't understand BvS is a weak one anyway. I had no problem understanding Tree of Life, 12 Monkeys, Persona, and other genuinely complex and engaging movies but Batman v Superman just went over my pleb head. Lol get real

----------


## Korath

Because Wondy's "Love is good" plot was subtle ? Please. 

The success of WW speaks more of the sorry state of gender equality in mainstream medias more than quality, what with the film with glaring inconsistencies (Trevor is in Turkey, steal a plane, crash on the island, leave the next night and at the morning is in London - Ares letting Diana jump and get back it in two scenes absolutely ridiculous, the CGI-wankfest of the last battles which is atrocious and yet apparently found better than the Doomsday's battle, which is superior in quality) just from the top of my head. Add to that that the WW film goes full "comics logic" when it comes to the people's reaction to Diana in Veld, compared to the very realistic reactions of the common man in BvS regarding both heroes... 

Again, Wonder Woman is a good film. BvS is a great one, better at everything, but sadly not what the "common" moviegoer wanted. But at least it took risks where WW never did.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I have pretty much no complaints about Wonder Woman but I agree BvS was better. Many people will disagree and that's okay.

----------


## The Kid

> Because Wondy's "Love is good" plot was subtle ? Please. 
> 
> The success of WW speaks more of the sorry state of gender equality in mainstream medias more than quality, what with the film with glaring inconsistencies (Trevor is in Turkey, steal a plane, crash on the island, leave the next night and at the morning is in London - Ares letting Diana jump and get back it in two scenes absolutely ridiculous, the CGI-wankfest of the last battles which is atrocious and yet apparently found better than the Doomsday's battle, which is superior in quality) just from the top of my head. Add to that that the WW film goes full "comics logic" when it comes to the people's reaction to Diana in Veld, compared to the very realistic reactions of the common man in BvS regarding both heroes... 
> 
> Again, Wonder Woman is a good film. BvS is a great one, better at everything, but sadly not what the "common" moviegoer wanted. But at least it took risks where WW never did.


Wonder Woman's themes weren't special but no one is saying that it was some masterful display of strong themes like they do for BvS. People try to make BvS into some misunderstood masterpiece where it's really more like a modern day Elektra/Catwoman

The CGI battle of Wonder Woman was the most criticized part of the movie by far. Hell, it almost ruined the movie for me. Off topic for a second, but DC needs to fix some of their action scenes. That black-orange filter that makes it look like they're fighting in a volcano in all their movies is just ugly.  BvS is a movie with bad storytelling, mediocre direction and editing, uncharismatic actors, and weak themes. That's why both critics and audiences savaged it. If you like it, that's fine. People see brilliance in all kinds of things. But don't criticize everyone else for not liking it. The reasons people think it is a bad movie are well publicized and it has nothing to do with 'common' people being too dumb to understand it

----------


## Korath

> I have pretty much no complaints about Wonder Woman but I agree BvS was better. Many people will disagree and that's okay.


Indeed. My only problem is the unfair hatred of the film. You didn't love it ? Okay, that's your absolute right. But don't come shitting on it and Snyder's awesome work on it.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The idea that a majority of people thought the Snyder films were bad is just flat-out wrong. That doesn't mean they thought they were great, either, but the general audience didn't mind them nearly as much as some would want us to believe.


Terrible multipliers, terrible reviews, creative shake ups, shift in direction and approach, all these seem to imply that people did mind them a lot. Movies like Ant-Man fall under your description. DOJ is on the same level as GL .

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Wonder Woman's themes weren't special but no one is saying that it was some masterful display of strong themes like they do for BvS. People try to make BvS into some misunderstood masterpiece where it's really more like a modern day Elektra/Catwoman


I think objectively speaking this is a dishonest dismissal of the themes present in BvS. It doesn't matter if you hated the execution; the fact that Lex Luthor posed the problem of evil, that commentators question Superman's political significance, and that Batman represented trauma-induced xenophobic paranoia already makes the movie have more artistic and literary merit than Elektra or Catwoman. It's not necessarily hard to wrap your head around, but there's more thought behind what the characters represent than most superhero movies. Hate it all you want, those are objective facts. It is not comparable to a film like Catwoman.

----------


## Punisher007

> Patty on writing the script of 'Wonder Woman'
> https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...v8t/?context=3
> 
> I think Johns played a HUGE role in this movie's success. Hope he has a bigger role going forward


Which is fascinating since, as much as I really like most of Johns's work overall, I've always felt like writing WW was a weak spot of his.

As for BVS, if you like it, that's perfectly fine.  I don't (it's got good elements, but in no way comes together as a cohesive piece, imo), but different opinions and all that.

But the moment that you say things like "unfair criticisms" or "don't start crapping on Snyder's awesome work," then you become just as guilty as the people that you disagree with.  You're doing the EXACT same thing (being unfair), but in reverse.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

Batman v. Superman had a lot of great ideas and thought-provoking moments in it. The biggest problems with the movie were: 

1: A lot of the ways these ideas were executed kind of fell flat 

2: There were too many plot lines crammed into the story they couldn't really do any of them Justice. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if all the big plot points of Batman v. Superman were their own movies it could've been an amazing foundation for the DCEU. Wonder Woman proved that. I have little doubt a stand alone Batman movie about fighting crime in Gotham & a Man of Steel sequel regarding the aftermath of Zod's Invasion would've been fantastic. Snyder and co.'s ideas weren't bad, the movie was just overstuffed. You could even argue the fact they were able to put all of those concepts together into a coherent plot speaks to their ability as writers and storytellers. 

Not trying to insinuate that Batman v. Superman was a _misunderstood masterpiece_. I agree that it was in many areas flawed and could've been so much more. But honestly, as many bad moments brought the movie down good moments propped it back up.

----------


## Punisher007

> Batman v. Superman had a lot of great ideas and thought-provoking moments in it. The biggest problems with the movie were: 
> 
> 1: A lot of the ways these ideas were executed kind of fell flat 
> 
> 2: There were too many plot lines crammed into the story they couldn't really do any of them Justice. 
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, if all the big plot points of Batman v. Superman were their own movies it could've been an amazing foundation for the DCEU. Wonder Woman proved that. I have little doubt a stand alone Batman movie about fighting crime in Gotham & a Man of Steel sequel regarding the aftermath of Zod's Invasion would've been fantastic. Snyder and co.'s ideas weren't bad, the movie was just overstuffed. You could even argue the fact they were able to put all of those concepts together into a coherent plot speaks to their ability as writers and storytellers. 
> 
> Not trying to insinuate that Batman v. Superman was a _misunderstood masterpiece_. I agree that it was in many areas flawed and could've been so much more. But honestly, as many bad moments brought the movie down good moments propped it back up.


Exactly.  You don't get a free pass just because you're being "ambitious."  You still have to execute it well in the context of the actual film.  I've seen plenty of movies that were TRYING to be deep and profound, but fail as movies because the execution is bad.  BVS, is an example of this.

Snyder forgot about things like storytelling logic, character motivations, making you actually give a crap about said characters and what happens to them, tone, etc.  He got so obsessed with how "deep" he was being that he forgot to actually make a cohesive FILM!!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Terrible multipliers, terrible reviews, creative shake ups, shift in direction and approach, all these seem to imply that people did mind them a lot. Movies like Ant-Man fall under your description. DOJ is on the same level as GL .


That's ridiculous. If BvS was like GL, the DCEU would have been over and the Wonder Woman film probably would have been scrapped on the spot.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> That doesn't really solve the multiplier problem. That just hinders your movie from making more money. BvS with its opening weekend should have made well over a billion dollars.


I don't disagree with the latter, Kid, or that better reviews would have hellped, but this idea that it wasn't successful financially is just wrong.




> And the Transformers movies have been falling domestically for a while now.


How many have there been? How many are in production? It's amazing they have lasted as long as they have done.  :Smile:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I have pretty much no complaints about Wonder Woman but I agree BvS was better. Many people will disagree and that's okay.


I have BvS and WW at the same score but ultimately edge BvS ahead cuz Batman is my favourite CBM char.

----------


## Troian

> Because...they weren't that good.


The fact that it showed that a female led superhero film can be successful and that it broke records for the female box office was likely the main reason.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> That doesn't really solve the multiplier problem. That just hinders your movie from making more money. BvS with its opening weekend should have made well over a billion dollars. And the Transformers movies have been falling domestically for a while now. Hope DCEU doesn't follow their lead. Not to mention, DC is not as popular internationally as the Transformers series so it's not the same thing anyway.


Again why is BvS not making a billion a failure or bad? BO isn't the be all and end all. 

BvS made 942,994,797 adding the international BO with domestic Blu-ray and DVD sales, that doesn't count for domestic digital sales btw, it also doesn't count international Blu-ray DVDs and digital sales either. Plus all the licensed merchandise from the film too, it crushed that market to the point the Licensing Industry Merchandiser's Association mentioned BvS specifically as one of the properties responsible for the increased overall sales in licensed merchandise for 2016.

But ya know since BvS didn't make 1bn it was a flop/disappointment...

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Again why is BvS not making a billion a failure or bad? BO isn't the be all and end all. 
> 
> BvS made 942,994,797 adding the international BO with domestic Blu-ray and DVD sales, that doesn't count for domestic digital sales btw, it also doesn't count international Blu-ray DVDs and digital sales either. Plus all the licensed merchandise from the film too, it crushed that market to the point the Licensing Industry Merchandiser's Association mentioned BvS specifically as one of the properties responsible for the increased overall sales in licensed merchandise for 2016.
> 
> But ya know since BvS didn't make 1bn it was a flop/disappointment...


It certainly wasn't a flop, but it was a disappointment in regard to it not hitting a billion. I can definitely understand WB wanting to fix that for the future.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> It certainly wasn't a flop, but it was a disappointment in regard to it not hitting a billion. I can definitely understand WB wanting to fix that for the future.


Okay, but what exactly WB will do to "fix" that? As has been said before, a lighter tone for "Justice League" was already planned even before "BvS" was released. What else can WB do to "fix" that without alienating the current fanbase?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Okay, but what exactly WB will do to "fix" that? As has been said before, a lighter tone for "Justice League" was already planned even before "BvS" was released. What else can WB do to "fix" that without alienating the current fanbase?


I agree that the JL films were going to be lighter before BvS came out. That was quite evident, IMO. What to fix beyond that? That's a good question. Probably not much, I would think, but that's easy for me to say since my job is not dependent on how well they meet financial expectations.   :Smile:

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Okay, but what exactly WB will do to "fix" that? As has been said before, a lighter tone for "Justice League" was already planned even before "BvS" was released. What else can WB do to "fix" that without alienating the current fanbase?


Well, they can make it so that, unlike BvS, JL actually watches like a real movie, as in it tells a cohesive story as opposed to seeming like a bunch of random clips strewn together. That's what Wonder Woman actually did right and what BvS did abhorrently wrong.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Okay, but what exactly WB will do to "fix" that? As has been said before, a lighter tone for "Justice League" was already planned even before "BvS" was released. What else can WB do to "fix" that without alienating the current fanbase?


Just a tighter story and more focused plot/characters can go a long way. More loyalty to the source material would also help, not that I'm trying to say blind purism is the way to go, definitely not. Just that the heroes in DC a lot of people grew up with are proven to attract casuals and I doubt the comic book fans would complain if accurate adaptations of their favorite characters were brought to life on the big screen. 

That's one of the reasons Suicide Squad failed critically in both directions. They completely ignored The Joker, Deadshot, etc's rich comic book history in favor of cliche, bizarre GoTG knockoff. When that's never been who the Squad was. Hardcore fans were angry and casuals saw right through it. Wonder Woman succeeded because it did the near opposite of that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Wonder Woman's themes weren't special but no one is saying that it was some masterful display of strong themes like they do for BvS. People try to make BvS into some misunderstood masterpiece where it's really more like a modern day Elektra/Catwoman


Calling it a modern day Elektra or Catwoman is quite a bit of an exagerration, but the "misunderstood masterpiece" defense of BvS is weaker than weak.




> I think objectively speaking this is a dishonest dismissal of the themes present in BvS. It doesn't matter if you hated the execution; the fact that Lex Luthor posed the problem of evil, that commentators question Superman's political significance, and that Batman represented trauma-induced xenophobic paranoia already makes the movie have more artistic and literary merit than Elektra or Catwoman. It's not necessarily hard to wrap your head around, but there's more thought behind what the characters represent than most superhero movies.


The themes in BvS weren't the issues that I had with it.  I actually did like the movie but I found the execution of those themes and the pacing of the movie to be bad.  Comparing it to GL is a dishonest analogy but so is calling it a "masterpiece."  Those who dismiss criticisim of BvS (not you) due to not understanding the themes presented are just having tunnel vision.  The most criticism that I've seen/heard for BvS aren't from anonymous posters or critics but rather from working DGA and WGA members on successful network shows, HBO/Showtime/Netflix shows and feature films.  




> As for BVS, if you like it, that's perfectly fine.  I don't (it's got good elements, but in no way comes together as a cohesive piece, imo), but different opinions and all that.
> 
> But the moment that you say things like "unfair criticisms" or "don't start crapping on Snyder's awesome work," then you become just as guilty as the people that you disagree with.  You're doing the EXACT same thing (being unfair), but in reverse.


So much truth in these statements.  BvS had some good/great elements but it was choppy in both the theatrical and extended cut.  I've enjoyed most of Snyder's movies (not you Sucker Punch) but calling him a "great filmmaker" is a bit too much.  




> Exactly.  You don't get a free pass just because you're being "ambitious."  You still have to execute it well in the context of the actual film.  I've seen plenty of movies that were TRYING to be deep and profound, but fail as movies because the execution is bad.  BVS, is an example of this.
> 
> Snyder forgot about things like storytelling logic, character motivations, making you actually give a crap about said characters and what happens to them, tone, etc.  He got so obsessed with how "deep" he was being that he forgot to actually make a cohesive FILM!!


I'll just have to say that I agree with almost everything you said right here.   




> How many have there been? How many are in production? It's amazing they have lasted as long as they have done.


For some reason Bay can get people into the seats no matter how bad the previous film was.  I just don't get it.  He is notoriously one of biggest jackA#%es in Hollywood too.




> It certainly wasn't a flop, but it was a disappointment in regard to it not hitting a billion. I can definitely understand WB wanting to fix that for the future.


That is what I keep trying to tell the BvS defenders.  It was far from flop financially but if you think  WB wasn't hoping for significantly then you are looking at the situation with rose colored glasses.




> Okay, but what exactly WB will do to "fix" that? As has been said before, a lighter tone for "Justice League" was already planned even before "BvS" was released. What else can WB do to "fix" that without alienating the current fanbase?


There is nothing more that can be done with Justice League other than Joss Whedon's involvement.  I've said it before... Justice League being a "Snyder film" WILL affect its critical reception and box office.  Is that unfair?  Absolutely but WB/DC needs to get the "Snyderverse" stigma away from the DCEU if it wants to maximize its reception and sales.  I don't think Justice League is a deal breaker of WB... it would absolutely be disappointing if it underperformed, but I think Wan and the other directors attached to the upcoming DC films will be up to the task.  Slowing their roll and putting out two quality films per year would probably be the best idea anyway.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Just a tighter story and more focused plot/characters can go a long way. More loyalty to the source material would also help, not that I'm trying to say blind purism is the way to go, definitely not. Just that the heroes in DC a lot of people grew up with are proven to attract casuals and I doubt the comic book fans would complain if accurate adaptations of their favorite characters were brought to life on the big screen.


Absoutely... I genuinely hope that the story issues with BvS were more due to the basic story that Goyer wrote rather than what Terrio wrote.  Even if that is not the case I'm cautiously optimistic that  Johns can help Terrio out with the story.  




> That's one of the reasons Suicide Squad failed critically in both directions. They completely ignored The Joker, Deadshot, etc's rich comic book history in favor of cliche, bizarre GoTG knockoff. When that's never been who the Squad was. Hardcore fans were angry and casuals saw right through it. Wonder Woman succeeded because it did the near opposite of that.


I've heard from the grapevine that the Joker was barely in the movie because they were unsure of how his Joker would be received based on their video playback.  IMO it was easily Leto's worst performance that I have ever seen.  I also think the Ayer and the SS costume designer's desire to make "this Joker" their own strayed too far away from what many people were willing accept.  It also didn't help that he would be compared to Ledger's incarnation.  It really does S##k that two of DC's iconic villains may be the biggest miscastings of the DCEU.  It is kind of hard to fix that.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It certainly wasn't a flop, but it was a disappointment in regard to it not hitting a billion. I can definitely understand WB wanting to fix that for the future.


Again I fail to see how making $126,739,806 less at the Box Office is a "disappointment" especially when they easily made that up elsewhere, Jeff Bewkes constantly talked about the success of BvS, and if they truly were disappointed than Snyder would have gone long ago, the shake up is moreso about the negative perception around the DCEU which is not good in the long run so that is understandable.  

Find me a quote from WB where they said they wanted BvS to make 1bn at the BO and then find me a quote where they said they were disappointing in BvS BO.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> That's ridiculous. If BvS was like GL, the DCEU would have been over and the Wonder Woman film probably would have been scrapped on the spot.


BvS had Batman and Superman and Lex and Wonder Woman, replace them with Hyperion, Dark Rider and other expys' I guarantee you that whatever box office it made would have reduced by a third. Take a look at Watchmens' BO, that's BvS minus the icons that it boasts. The multiplier of BvS was the same as the likes of GL and Batman and Robin, critically its barely above them.
But most fundamentally my issues with BvS were not that I simply found it to be a bad movie. SS was arguably worse but SS can find its footing in the future, even the worst aspect IMO Jared Leto Joker can bounce back. People were still somewhat interested in Deadshot, Waller, Boomerang and Diablo, ofcourse Harley too. Superman on the other hand is going to find coming back after what Snyder has done to him incredibly hard. Creatively Snyder wasted the DP, Lex, Doomsday and blew Superman's death. Batman has it tight too due to Affleck being too old as well as the other questionable creative choices that were made with regard to him and frankly I think the Bat family and the rogues are going to have to carry Batman because Batfleck is about interesting and enjoyable as watching paint dry. In terms of recognition Cavill and Affleck dont measure up to their predecessors. Snyder simply blew the novelty factor, in that year Captain America, Iron Man, Spidey and Black Panther stole the show. That's the real cardinal sin he committed, he made people care about Batman and Superman LESS.

----------


## golgi

Insane numbers for the second weekend.




> Warner Bros./DC’s Wonder Woman continues to be the popular ticket with her second Saturday of $23.8M +51% over Friday. This now puts the Patty Jenkins-directed movie on track for a second weekend of $57.2M, which by the way is more than what Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice and Suicide Squad both made in their second weekends (respectively $51.3M and $43.5M), and both of those titles boasted bigger openings ($166M, $133.6M) than Wonder Woman ($103.2M).

----------


## Agent Z

> BvS had Batman and Superman and Lex and Wonder Woman, replace them with Hyperion, Dark Rider and other expys' I guarantee you that whatever box office it made would have reduced by a third. Take a look at Watchmens' BO, that's BvS minus the icons that it boasts. The multiplier of BvS was the same as the likes of GL and Batman and Robin, critically its barely above them.
> But most fundamentally my issues with BvS were not that I simply found it to be a bad movie. SS was arguably worse but SS can find its footing in the future, even the worst aspect IMO Jared Leto Joker can bounce back. People were still somewhat interested in Deadshot, Waller, Boomerang and Diablo, ofcourse Harley too. Superman on the other hand is going to find coming back after what Snyder has done to him incredibly hard. Creatively Snyder wasted the DP, Lex, Doomsday and blew Superman's death. Batman has it tight too due to Affleck being too old as well as the other questionable creative choices that were made with regard to him and frankly I think the Bat family and the rogues are going to have to carry Batman because Batfleck is about interesting and enjoyable as watching paint dry. In terms of recognition Cavill and Affleck dont measure up to their predecessors. Snyder simply blew the novelty factor, in that year Captain America, Iron Man, Spidey and Black Panther stole the show. That's the real cardinal sin he committed, he made people care about Batman and Superman LESS.


Of those four you mentioned, the only one who was a proven draw was Batman. Wonder Woman didn't have a solo movie yet and only had the Lynda Carter show and the 2009 animated movie. And Superman was struggling for relevancy long before Snyder came along to the point that at least half his modern day stories are about if he even is relevant in a modern context. The first three DCEU movies have beaten out the MCU's first three in terms of box office . And given the critical praise Affleck's Batman got and the fact that this is the most talked about in the mainstream Superman has been since forever, I doubt I can say Snyder made people care about them less. Bryan Singer did far more to make people apathetic towards Superman than anything Snyder did.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Of those four you mentioned, the only one who was a proven draw was Batman. Wonder Woman didn't have a solo movie yet and only had the Lynda Carter show and the 2009 animated movie. And Superman was struggling for relevancy long before Snyder came along to the point that at least half his modern day stories are about if he even is relevant in a modern context. The first three DCEU movies have beaten out the MCU's first three. And given the critical praise Affleck's Batman got and the fact that this is the most talked about in the mainstream Superman has been since forever, I doubt I can say Snyder made people care about them less. Bryan Singer did far more to make people apathetic towards Superman than anything Snyder did.


What you said (especially the last sentence  :Smile: ).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Again I fail to see how making $126,739,806 less at the Box Office is a "disappointment" especially when they easily made that up elsewhere, Jeff Bewkes constantly talked about the success of BvS, and if they truly were disappointed than Snyder would have gone long ago, the shake up is moreso about the negative perception around the DCEU which is not good in the long run so that is understandable.  
> 
> Find me a quote from WB where they said they wanted BvS to make 1bn at the BO and then find me a quote where they said they were disappointing in BvS BO.


Baggie, I liked the film overall (especially the director's cut), so I'm certainly not a hater. I'm just putting myself in the shoes of those at WB. A movie with the Trinity in it for the first time should have been an epic event at the box office. It did well, don't get me wrong, and in the end, that's all that matters to me as a DCEU fan. But if I were in charge at WB, I would have different concerns.

BTW, when some were saying that MoS should have made a billion, that's a different story. *Nobody* seriously thought it would even come close to that (including that WB guy who was quoted as stating it). That was just nuts.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> For some reason Bay can get people into the seats no matter how bad the previous film was.  I just don't get it.  He is notoriously one of biggest jackA#%es in Hollywood too.


I haven't seen any of the films personally, but I have to think Bay is giving a sizable number of people what they want - regardless of the critics. When that happens, a film can be bomb proof.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Of those four you mentioned, the only one who was a proven draw was Batman. Wonder Woman didn't have a solo movie yet and only had the Lynda Carter show and the 2009 animated movie. And Superman was struggling for relevancy long before Snyder came along to the point that at least half his modern day stories are about if he even is relevant in a modern context. The first three DCEU movies have beaten out the MCU's first three in terms of box office . And given the critical praise Affleck's Batman got and the fact that this is the most talked about in the mainstream Superman has been since forever, I doubt I can say Snyder made people care about them less. Bryan Singer did far more to make people apathetic towards Superman than anything Snyder did.


And Snyder made it worse for Superman, imagine if Reeves Superman had died on screen, compare that to Cavill, no contest.
Even if you're right about just Batman then guess what the last solo Batman film made about 1.1 billion in 2012 without 3D, without a fair China release and with the shooting tragedy. A follow up movie with Superman, Wonder Woman etc could have easily made 40% more of what BVS made. Novelty counts, none of the Avengers characters were proven sellers either. They just blew the gasket and I see the Superman/Batman aka Worlds Finest franchise as vurtually dead. Superman has been crippled and Batman has taken a huge hit.

I could have seen Reeves Batman film making a billion had it followed up just Rises. After BVS I doubt it will, especially in the first attempt.
Affleck Batman has created zero interest, heck I dont want to see his story continue. He's old, he kills, he's dull, he's fought his best battles, he's driven away his family. He's run in to a brick wall creatively.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Manu Bennet also outright confirmed that the only reason he came back as Deathstroke on Arrow is because the production for Batman has gone off the rails. Also with him seriously lobbying for a Deathstroke show it means that the film is either in development hell or Deathstroke is out( in that case the script is being completely rewritten). Either Way I think Batman film will get pushed to 2020 and there's therefore a strong chance of Affleck leaving after JL.

----------


## Agent Z

> And Snyder made it worse for Superman, imagine if Reeves Superman had died on screen, compare that to Cavill, no contest.


After the disasters that were Superman III and IV? Yeah, it wouldn’t have been a contest. 




> Even if you're right about just Batman then guess what the last solo Batman film made about 1.1 billion in 2012 without 3D, without a fair China release and with the shooting tragedy. A follow up movie with Superman, Wonder Woman etc could have easily made 40% more of what BVS made.


Based on what? You could saying it should have made a billion yet this was only the second film in this universe. It still made more money than the first MCU films. And as I said, neither Superman or Wonder Woman (at the time any way) were proven consistent draws. 





> I could have seen Reeves Batman film making a billion had it followed up just Rises. After BVS I doubt it will, especially in the first attempt.


After you were one of many convinced that WW was a “discombobulated mess” you’ll forgive me that I don’t see your predictions as infallible. 



> Affleck Batman has created zero interest, heck I dont want to see his story continue.


Well I guess that settles it then. If you’re not interested clearly it means no one else is.





> He's old, he kills, he's dull, he's fought his best battles, he's driven away his family. He's run in to a brick wall creatively.


You just describe Miller’s Batman. He’s on his fifth story with him. We don't even know what kind of relationship this Batman has with the other Bat members.

----------


## Agent Z

> Manu Bennet also outright confirmed that the only reason he came back as Deathstroke on Arrow is because the production for Batman has gone off the rails. Also with him seriously lobbying for a Deathstroke show it means that the film is either in development hell or Deathstroke is out( in that case the script is being completely rewritten). Either Way I think Batman film will get pushed to 2020 and there's therefore a strong chance of Affleck leaving after JL.


Bennet campaigning for a Deathstroke show means jack for whether or not the character is appearing in a Batman film. WB has since relaxed their embargos. Bennet has nothing to do with the movies. He's not playing Deathstroke in the films. His appearances on Arrow are irrelevant to the movies. Also, script rewrites happen all the time.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Bennet campaigning for a Deathstroke show means jack for whether or not the character is appearing in a Batman film. WB has since relaxed their embargos. Bennet has nothing to do with the movies. He's not playing Deathstroke in the films. His appearances on Arrow are irrelevant to the movies. Also, script rewrites happen all the time.


Wtf are you talking about? he confirmed HIMSELF THAT DEATHSTROKE WAS ONLY ALLOWED TO RETURN BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS FACED BY BATMAN. Clearly you know more than him right

----------


## Agent Z

> Wtf are you talkling about? he confirmed HIMSELF THAT DEATHSTROKE WAS ONLY ALLOWED TO RETURN BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS FACED BY BATMAN. Clearly you know more than him right


Where was this stated?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> After the disasters that were Superman III and IV? Yeah, it wouldn’t have been a contest. 
> 
> 
> Based on what? You could saying it should have made a billion yet this was only the second film in this universe. It still made more money than the first MCU films. And as I said, neither Superman or Wonder Woman (at the time any way) were proven consistent draws. 
> 
> 
> 
> After you were one of many convinced that WW was a “discombobulated mess” you’ll forgive me that I don’t see your predictions as infallible. 
> 
> ...


Reeves never lost credibility as Superman, hust like Jackman never lost credibility as Wolverine despite starring in 2 horrible films himself. Go make a poll about Reeves and Cavill, better yet look at the Buzzfeed polls and see the pitiful state Superman is in.

Based on the performance of the previous 2 Batman films ofcourse. According to your logic BVS made more money than Hulk and since they were both the second films therefore BVS is a massive success...puhlease. Why should I compare a Batman movie to Thor and Cap? get real.

I predicted Affleck leaving and I was right. I also strongly suspect him not being in the solo Bat film if it gets delayed further. Never called WW a mess, in case you forgot I stated that there were rumours and then Jenkins stepped in herself and that was the end of it.

If I as a fan am not interested then those large numbers of casuals wont be either. There is serious competition these days, putting a guy in a Bat suit is not going to accomplish much now.

3 stories in 3 decades with the latter 2 not being well received and those star Superman villains as antagonists, DC characters as support characters and the last one reset Bruce's age. Shitty example hoss, that universe IS a creative dead end.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Where was this stated?


There's an interview on Deathstrokes Reddit page.

----------


## Agent Z

> Reeves never lost credibility as Superman, hust like Jackman never lost credibility as Wolverine despite starring in 2 horrible films himself. Go make a poll about Reeves and Cavill, better yet look at the Buzzfeed polls and see the pitiful state Superman is in.
> 
> Based on the performance of the previous 2 Batman films ofcourse. According to your logic BVS made more money than Hulk and since they were both the second films therefore BVS is a massive success...puhlease. Why should I compare a Batman movie to Thor and Cap? get real.
> 
> I predicted Affleck leaving and I was right. I also strongly suspect him not being in the solo Bat film if it gets delayed further. Never called WW a mess, in case you forgot I stated that there were rumours and then Jenkins stepped in herself and that was the end of it.
> 
> If I as a fan am not interested then those large numbers of casuals wont be either. There is serious competition these days, putting a guy in a Bat suit is not going to accomplish much now.
> 
> 3 stories in 3 decades with the latter 2 not being well received and those star Superman villains as antagonists, DC characters as support characters and the last one reset Bruce's age. Shitty example hoss.


Internet polls do not reflect the entire movie going audience.

You're the one who started the comparisons with Cap and Thor in one of your initial posts.

Affleck has not left. he is taking time off to deal with rehab. Hold on with the patting on the back.

You were singing the upcoming the doom of the film. You didn't give a shit if they were just uncomfirmed rumors. The fact that you keep saying Affleck has left is proof you care not for what is rumor or what is fact.

Once again, you do not reflect the majority. Stop speaking for everyone else.

The last two Captain America movies starred Avengers characters. Your point?

----------


## Agent Z

> There's an interview on Deathstrokes Reddit page.


Can't find it. Could you provide a link?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Can't find it. Could you provide a link?


On mobile, just type Deathstroke reddit.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Internet polls do not reflect the entire movie going audience.


That's beyond a doubt when it comes to *any* internet poll. If they're not scientific polls, they only represent the people who participated and nothing more.

----------


## darkseidpwns

But polls where thousands of people vote do give a good glance of the state Superman is in currently.

I never compared box office returns.

Haha no, I never sang WW's doom. Affleck is no longer director hoss, my prediction turned out to be correct, therefore a pat is well deserved. 

So you think WB can disguise shit in a Batman suit and get away with it? I dont speak for others but a look at trends and the state of CBM/action flicks as well as the box office should open your eyes. 
Batman aint Cap, Nightwing sells more comics than Cap by himself. Cap doesn't have a rogues gallery of that caliber either. God help DC if they ever need the DCU to sell a Batman product.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Can't find it. Could you provide a link?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYn3LEz135s

Here, 40 seconds - 1 minute. He's being pretty frank about it all.

And since he's seriously campaigning for a Deathstroke show then based on his comments we can assume that

Batman has been delayed indefinitely
 or Deathstroke is out 
both suggest a complete overhaul of the production process and the more extensive and time consuming the greater the chance of Affleck leaving altogether, from that we can further assume that Mckay's Nightwing project is a contigency for just that scenario.
Then there's the recent murmurs about about Batgirl, SS 2 and JL Dark movies being fast tracked and not Batman.

----------


## Lightning Rider

lol @ all the negativity during the DCEU's finest critical hour. Nobody's buying it. This franchise is far from dead or in trouble.

----------


## The Kid

Wonder Woman has made more money in its second weekend than any DCEU movie. That's the power of positive audience and critical reviews right there.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Wonder Woman has made more money in its second weekend than any DCEU movie. That's the power of positive audience and critical reviews right there.


This, wom, critics etc determine the multiplier and legs, BVS had terrible legs.

----------


## ekrolo2

Wonder Woman just made some serious movie history, from Forbes:

*There have been 46 $100 million+ opening weekends since Spider-Man 15 years ago. And of those 46 movies, only five have dropped 45% or less in their second weekend. They are Star Wars: The Force Awakens (-39% over Christmas), Spider-Man (-37%), Shrek 2 (-33% over Memorial Day weekend), The Jungle Book (-40%) and Wonder Woman (-45%). So as you can see, Wonder Woman is playing less like a conventional fan-driven comic book superhero movie (or a fan-driven fantasy franchise offering) and more like an animated movie or a Disney live-action fairy tale. And even on that note, it's in rare company. Heck, among all $75m+ openers, said drop is among only 12 other pictures.*

----------


## TheSeaDragon

LOL Someone here  really compared B v S  to Catwoman or Elektra. I  cant  take these rabid haters seriously anymore

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> lol @ all the negativity during the DCEU's finest critical hour. Nobody's buying it. This franchise is far from dead or in trouble.


THIS. So annoying read the same people repeat themselves again and again

----------


## The Kid

> LOL Someone here  really compared B v S  to Catwoman or Elektra. I  cant  take these rabid haters seriously anymore


Don't have to take me seriously but I'll stand by that comparison. Maybe it wasn't as bad but imo it's in the same ballpark. 

And also there's nothing really rabid about it. This thread is a DCEU discussion thread, not an appreciation one. Some of us have different opinions on the movies so far and that's fine. No need to start insulting people for it

----------


## Johnny

> THIS. So annoying read the same people repeat themselves again and again


May I ask for an HQ version of your avatar.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> May I ask for an HQ version of your avatar.

----------


## Johnny

Thank you!

----------


## Rogue Star

Ooh! That's wallpaper right there.

----------


## Frontier

> 


I'm not one for selfie's, but this is to die for  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It is better to be simple with a clear direction than to try and be deep and not succeed... MOS tried very hard to be deep with its heavy handed savior imagery.  BvS tried to combine two major comic stories into one and a similar mistake could be made with Justice League.  It is good to be ambitious and great if you can pull it off.  However ambition is often not enough... you have to execute.  The execution script wise in MOS and BvS was flawed.  I know people at many different departments at Warner Brothers and DC Entertainment... trust me BvS was nowhere near as successful as they had hoped it would be.


Well, while the movie did make decisions I would not (Doomsday, WW, JL teases, and Lex being so prominent), the script is still really good, and subtle. TBH, too subtle in most cases. Terrio has a degree in British Literature, and a love for literature in general, and he floods Lex's dialogue with lines, and quotes. People who have taken the time to dissect Lex's lines have discovered that EVERY SINGLE quote, and line, ties directly to his motivation, and characterization, either directly, or symbolically. The lines also play to his theme of knowledge equaling power, which he would, of course, given his background, lord over everyone, so he constantly does it.

The Martha Scene, which is made fun of is a great scene even if rushed a bit. While there's the element of their mothers having the same name, there's also the fact that Clark knows who Bruce is, and thus the tragedy in his life. Would it have worked if their moms didn't have the same name? Who knows, but there's coincidences in all movies. There's also the fact that Zack dedicates every movie to his mom, who's name is Marsha, and he's clearly made that a focus of Clark's motivation, which is why he constantly goes to her for advice, and/or reassurance. That's never been the case for Superman, as it's usually his dad that has the more prominent role in his development; here it seems to be equal, or edge in her direction.

The fact that, unlike Civil War, we actually DO get to hear, and see the perspective, of the mundane (the people) in regards to the larger than life characters the movie is about. Not only that, but they affect, and color the thoughts of, the heroes. In the MCU, they're phantoms that don't matter. In BvS, the senate building blows up, and we see the people react, as well as seeing Supes actively save the people rejecting him. In CW, the UN building blows up and we ONLY see how it affects the heroes, nor do we see them actively help anyone that's been hurt. The BvS scene grounds the movie in a way that keeps the CW scene sterile. In fact, throughout CW we never see how any of the events affect the people, while in BvS we see people mourn Supes.

The movie is subtle, and has a lot of layers to it.

MoS is more heavy-handed, as it has the inferior writer, but Superman has always been a Jesus-esque character; even by people who don't realize that's the type of character they want him to be. The movie was divisive because it wasn't what people expected from a Superman movie at all. We had a Superman that does struggle to find his place. We had a Superman who had parents who were well-aware of the world they lived in, and thus prioritized his safety above others, and having to learn the balancing act that would still result in their son becoming a good man. It showed what happens to cities in which Superman fights in; again showing how it affects the people on the ground, rather than cutting away like in all the cartoons. People always wanted to see Superman unleashed, right? Well this is what it looks like, especially when it's Superman vs Supermen. Him killing Zod was a realistic way for a rookie Supes to handle that situation, because there was no convenient prison to throw him in.

After the Avengers, and the end of the Nolan Trilogy, everyone expected the Superman, or something in the vein of the MCU's tone, with more action, but then we got something in the complete opposite direction.

----------


## Ascended

> The movie is subtle, and has a lot of layers to it.


And all that subtlety, all that clever dialogue, and what kills the movie for me is Clark getting beat down by a psychopath in a bulky suit of armor.  :Smile: 




> MoS is more heavy-handed, as it has the inferior writer, but Superman has always been a Jesus-esque character; even by people who don't realize that's the type of character they want him to be. The movie was divisive because it wasn't what people expected from a Superman movie at all.


Agreed. People expected Richard Donner and Chris Reeves. What they got was something else entirely, and a lot of people fail to recognize that Reeves, as great as he was (and I love his Superman) he isn't the be-all, end-all of what Superman is, or can be. 

Nothing in MoS was out of character, everything there was supported by one version or era or another. But it wasnt Reeves, so people bitch.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> And all that subtlety, all that clever dialogue, and what kills the movie for me is Clark getting beat down by a psychopath in a bulky suit of armor.


Lol. To be fair, I think the point was to be frustrated by that fight, because Batman was the antagonist....but to us he's supposed to the Batg- I mean Batman! Batman was crumbling under the weight of his own (self-imposed) burden). There's also the fact that Clark, while it's made clear that he could've won from the start, had no idea how dire the circumstances he walked into were. He never believed his life was in danger, and that is why he lost. That's why he kinda took his time, and allowed himself to get irritated; because this "gnat" wasn't listening to reason. 

Honestly, Batman looking like the a crazy man, in a bear suit, makes the fight work. It also makes Supes look better.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Nothing in MoS was out of character, everything there was supported by one version or era or another. But it wasnt Reeves, so people bitch.


It's amazing (though completely understandable based on Reeve's interpretation) how iconic his take was - and still is. George Reeve's, OTOH, while much closer to the Superman in the comics of that time than Reeve's was in relation to Bronze-Age Supes, has fallen by the wayside. Not shocking when you consider that it was television and decades earlier, but still impressive when you consider the first film's release itself was almost 40 years ago.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Lol. To be fair, I think the point was to be frustrated by that fight, because Batman was the antagonist....but to us he's supposed to the Batg- I mean Batman! There's also the fact that Clark, while it's made clear that he could've won from the start, had no idea how dire the circumstances he walked into were. He never believed his life was in danger, and that is why he lost. That's why he kinda took his time, and allowed himself to get irritated; because this "gnat" wasn't listening to reason.


Yep. If Superman knew what was going on in Bat's mind from the start, we would have had a different outcome.

----------


## Ascended

> Lol. To be fair, I think the point was to be frustrated by that fight, because Batman was the antagonist....but to us he's supposed to the Batg- I mean Batman! There's also the fact that Clark, while it's made clear that he could've won from the start, had no idea how dire the circumstances he walked into were. He never believed his life was in danger, and that is why he lost. That's why he kinda took his time, and allowed himself to get irritated; because this "gnat" wasn't listening to reason.


Oh, I know what they were going for, I just dont like the execution. Once Clark caught his second wind, the entire fight goes south for me. Its basically just another example of Superman being written like a moron so Batman can be seen as viable.  




> It's amazing (though completely understandable based on Reeve's interpretation) how iconic his take was - and still is. George Reeve's, OTOH, while much closer to the Superman in the comics of that time than Reeve's was in relation to Bronze-Age Supes, has fallen by the wayside. Not shocking when you consider that it was television and decades earlier, but still impressive when you consider the first film's release itself was almost 40 years ago.


I think the real reason Reeves is still held up as *the* standard today is because we went so long without another version to compare and contrast it to. Even Brandon Routh wasn't playing Superman, he was playing Reeves playing Superman. 

I think that, in time, Cavill will be seen as just as viable a Superman as Reeves was. People just need to process the different take and get some distance/perspective.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's amazing (though completely understandable based on Reeve's interpretation) how iconic his take was - and still is. George Reeve's, OTOH, while much closer to the Superman in the comics of that time than Reeve's was in relation to Bronze-Age Supes, has fallen by the wayside. Not shocking when you consider that it was television and decades earlier, but still impressive when you consider the first film's release itself was almost 40 years ago.


It's also the fact that causal audiences have been treated to, more, or less, the same variations of Supes and Bats, until Snyder showed up. Even a lot of comic book fans hold the animated versions above the comic versions.

If the DCEU pans out, I honestly think that people will look back on BvS:UE, and see how crazy they were. Not saying Snyder is Kubrick, but that's kinda how his movies were treated; hated because they went against the norm, and then looked back on because they did things nobody even thought off. Snyder isn't going with the kind of ideas Kubrick did, but him having these icons actually be flawed humans, and as well as the world they live in be realistic, is totally against the norm for these CBMs.

----------


## Frontier

> Even a lot of comic book fans hold the animated versions above the comic versions.


(Raises hand with a wink)  :Wink: .

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think the real reason Reeves is still held up as *the* standard today is because we went so long without another version to compare and contrast it to. Even Brandon Routh wasn't playing Superman, he was playing Reeves playing Superman. 
> 
> I think that, in time, Cavill will be seen as just as viable a Superman as Reeves was. People just need to process the different take and get some distance/perspective.


Makes sense to me, Ascended.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Oh, I know what they were going for, I just dont like the execution. Once Clark caught his second wind, the entire fight goes south for me. Its basically just another example of Superman being written like a moron so Batman can be seen as viable.


When he caught his second wind it looked like he was contemplating killing Batman out of frustration, which explains why he rushed him like that. Also, he didn't know Bats had more kryptonite on him; it's canon that all the grenades were lined with lead. 

Another thing is that Batman was down, after being thrown, and he needed his head, so kamehameha heat vision isn't necessary.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> (Raises hand with a wink) .


Lol, see. So while it's frustrating, I'm also not surprised the public recoiled. It's not that the movie was too smart, but that people didn't like what they saw, and thus wrote the movie off. So the Martha scene gets reduced to "Oh so their mother's have the same name?! = Friendship", rather than "Clark knows who Bruce is, knows his history, and his mom happens to have the same name, so he uses "Martha" in a desperate move to get Bruce to snap out of his mania, and then plea for his own mother's life, using her as a chance for Bruce to make up for his own tragedy."

Or they look a Jesse's Lex and think "Oh he's crazy like the Joker, but he's not my Lex!" rather than "Oh, he acts like that because he was mentally, and physically, abused by the Lex we're familiar with, paraded by (and named after) his father to receive goodwill, and raised to be the "perfect" heir, all while suffering alone....of course he's a socially awkward psychopath, with an inferiority complex and a hatred towards an "all good, all powerful" god".

----------


## Ascended

I know the grenades were all lead-lined, but its foolish to think Bruce only had the one. 

Clark catches his second wind, goes sub-orbital, and cuts Bruce out of the armor with heat vision. Then comes down and says "I'm on the clock and innocent lives are at stake. You wanna talk for a second, or should I just go beat the bad guys alone?" Yeah, Clark is angry by this point and maybe his mind is clouded by the K-radiation, but get over it, your mother's life is at risk you know?

The ideas, and the motivations, in that fight were fine. But the execution was poor. Im sure Batman fans were totally loving the whole fight, but as a Super-fan it pissed me off and soured me on a film that I was otherwise enjoying.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I know the grenades were all lead-lined, but its foolish to think Bruce only had the one. 
> 
> Clark catches his second wind, goes sub-orbital, and cuts Bruce out of the armor with heat vision. Then comes down and says "I'm on the clock and innocent lives are at stake. You wanna talk for a second, or should I just go beat the bad guys alone?" 
> 
> The ideas, and the motivations, in that fight were fine. But the execution was poor. Im sure Batman fans were totally loving the whole fight, but as a Super-fan it pissed me off and soured me on a film that I was otherwise enjoying.


Hmm, I think I never thought of that because I'm not under the impression that this Superman can do what you just said. I don't think his vision, or heat vision, is that good, because 1) he's still learning his powers (he can't even use freeze breath yet, and it takes time for him to switch between his visions) and 2) until now, he's not had any reason to hon his abilities to that point. You gotta remember that this is still young Superman vs 20 year veteran Batman. So Batman making Superman look not as smart is completely fine.

I think you're eventually gonna get the fully realized Superman you want.

----------


## ekrolo2

The main issue with the fight was the fact it had music for me. It's supposed to be like Batman's beat down from Bane in Rises where, in spite of getting some hits in, the guy on the receiving end takes the brunt of the beaten and the music that puts an emphasis on the "coolness" of the whole thing takes away from that.

----------


## Ascended

> Hmm, I think I never thought of that because I'm not under the impression that this Superman can do what you just said. I don't think his vision, or heat vision, is that good, because 1) he's still learning his powers (he can't even use freeze breath yet, and it takes time for him to switch between his visions) and 2) until now, he's not had any reason to hon his abilities to that point. You gotta remember that this is still young Superman vs 20 year veteran Batman. So Batman making Superman look not as smart is completely fine.
> 
> I think you're eventually gonna get the fully realized Superman you want.


Ah, true! I forgot his heat vision isn't that accurate. Okay, he slams Bruce into a wall and tears him out of the armor with his bare hands (he was halfway there anyway) at super speed. 

Bottom line is they made Clark look bad. And I take that sh*t personal.  :Smile:  But yeah, I agree that we're probably getting a "fully realized" Superman once he returns from the dead.

EDIT: Oh, I will say that Clark has plenty of reason to hone his powers. Zod and his friends gave Clark plenty of reason to master his abilities, and if Clark spent the 18 months between MoS and BvS not practicing, then he's an idiot.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The main issue with the fight was the fact it had music for me. It's supposed to be like Batman's beat down from Bane in Rises where, in spite of getting some hits in, the guy on the receiving end takes the brunt of the beaten and the music that puts an emphasis on the "coolness" of the whole thing takes away from that.


The lack of music fits in TDKRises, because it's Bruce (and us) getting slapped by reality, and that he's not this unstoppable force. That was a more a theme for that movie, than a theme in BvS. When have we ever seen the Batg- I mean Batman worked like that, in live action? 

Even tho in BvS that was Batman's goal, to kill god, to stop the unstoppable, the theme of that fight was desperation, corruption, and ultimately redemption. You need music for that!

----------


## ekrolo2

> The lack of music fits in TDKRises, because it's Bruce (and us) getting slapped by reality, and that he's not this unstoppable force. That was a more a theme for that movie, than a theme in BvS. When have we ever seen the Batg- I mean Batman worked like that, in live action? 
> 
> Even tho in BvS that was Batman's goal, to kill god, to stop the unstoppable, the theme of that fight was desperation, corruption, and ultimately redemption. You need music for that!


I think putting music for the Martha moment work but injecting the MoS final battle song into the chunk when Superman starts to get the upper hand doesn't really evoke desperation so much as "oh yeah! Supes is kicking his ass now!".

----------


## brucekent12

Overall. I enjoyed the   film, because some of my favorite DC characters were in a film together for the first time! But, Supes and Bats were written too dark from their comic counterparts for my taste. which took away the film's charms for me. Also I wonder, in JL, whan Clark comes back, if Brice still has the kryptonite, will Clark tell Bruce to leep it in the cave, if he ever needs it, like in the comics?

----------


## Sutekh

> Also I wonder, in JL, whan Clark comes back, if Brice still has the kryptonite, will Clark tell Bruce to leep it in the cave, if he ever needs it, like in the comics?


Since Clark knows that there are other Kryptonians out there, in that he's been in exactly two movies, and had to face threats like Zod and then Doomsday, then it would only be logical for him to encourage Bruce to keep some on hand, not necessarily for attempting to kill *him* 'if he goes bad,' but definitely to help face any other crazy Krypto-threats that arise.

As for the fight, it was dumb on both sides.  We saw that Superman couldn't be bothered to dodge grenades, even after he'd seen that they could hurt him.  If Batman would have made kryptonite bullets, which Superman would be just as likely not to have bothered dodging, the fight would have ended.  If Superman had bothered to use his super-speed, he could have dodged those grenade, hypothetical bullets, peeled Bruce out of his armor and deposited him in jail faster than you can say 'death by friction.'

But neither did anything that would have been un-dramatic or ended the fight too soon.  Faora would have kicked Batman's butt halfway to next week, with an extra bounce at Thursday.  She knew how to work that super-speed!

----------


## Frontier

> Lol, see. So while it's frustrating, I'm also not surprised the public recoiled. It's not that the movie was too smart, but that people didn't like what they saw, and thus wrote the movie off. So the Martha scene gets reduced to "Oh so their mother's have the same name?! = Friendship", rather than "Clark knows who Bruce is, knows his history, and his mom happens to have the same name, so he uses "Martha" in a desperate move to get Bruce to snap out of his mania, and then plea for his own mother's life, using her as a chance for Bruce to make up for his own tragedy."
> 
> Or they look a Jesse's Lex and think "Oh he's crazy like the Joker, but he's not my Lex!" rather than "Oh, he acts like that because he was mentally, and physically, abused by the Lex we're familiar with, paraded by (and named after) his father to receive goodwill, and raised to be the "perfect" heir, all while suffering alone....of course he's a socially awkward psychopath, with an inferiority complex and a hatred towards an "all good, all powerful" god".


I dunno. I think I usually get what the DCEU is going for in terms of character portrayals and story beats, but more often then not they just don't do it for me or are as enjoyable to me as other takes. I try not to overthink it past that. 

But I guess that's sometimes just the thing about being a Superhero fan, when you think about it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

*Sigh* More criticism of the fight?

1.) Superman would not think to dodge grenades. Superman does NOT dodge projectile weapons. Superman stands there and laughs as they ineffectually bounce off of him. This particular Superman especially wouldn't dodge those grenades. Why? Because he had no idea Kryptonite even existed. He'd never encountered a projectile that could hurt him in any way by that point. Of COURSE he wouldn't think to dodge a grenade.

"But he should've dodged the SECOND grenade, Vanguard! How 'bout that?" 

Yeah? How 'BOUT that? By that point, he had deadly poison coursing through his veins and was experiencing pain unlike anything he'd ever felt before. We saw no evidence that he'd even regained his superspeed by the time the second grenade came into play. Heck, we still haven't seen Superman EVER use his speed for super-speed dodges. He either can't do those, or he just hasn't figured out how to do it, since he hadn't needed to develop that skill before that moment. 

2.) "Batman's suit was clunky! Superman should've ripped it off of him at superspeed!" 

By the time Superman would've thought to do that, he was poisoned and we saw no evidence that he still HAD his superspeed. Once again? We still haven't seen Superman do ANYTHING at superspeed beyond travel quickly from Point A to Point B and catch a (relatively slow-moving) grenade. The whole "disassemble a car in a matter of seconds" thing? Haven't seen him do anything like that yet. 

Also? Destroying Batman's armor was unlikely to convince Batman that Supes just wanted to be friends anyway. 

3.) "Superman should've run away!"

And that would've accomplished what, exactly? 

4.) "Superman looked like a moron in that fight!" 

No. He looked like a guy who'd been in one, maybe two serious fights in his entire life and was going up against a master fighter who had just crippled every single one of his powers. He looked like a man trying to fight while experiencing pain like nothing he'd ever experienced before. He looked like a man who was fighting while POISONED and possibly dying for all he knew. 

5.) "Superman should've honed his powers!" 

Really? Why? Zod and the other Kryptonians were gone. For the past two years, Superman had not been in anything resembling the fight he'd been in against Zod and his forces. He had no reason to believe that other alien invaders with godlike powers were on the way, so why would he feel the need to continue refining his control over his powers? He'd gone for two years as a completely unstoppable force who could not be harmed by any force on Earth. It is beyond easy to get complacent in such a setting.

As a decided non-fan of Batgod stories and "Batman kicks Superman's ass because Batman" stories, I watched that fight determined to shoot holes in the logic and I honestly couldn't find too many. It was a very well-thought-out fight that showed respect to both characters. 

Batman chose an angle of attack that Superman wouldn't perceive as a threat. People shoot projectiles at him all the time and they've never hurt him before. He would have no reason to believe that THESE projectiles were somehow the only projectiles on Earth that could hurt him. Once they delivered their Kryptonite? The Kryptonite was IN HIS BLOODSTREAM. This is not Superman wilting like a delicate flower because someone held up a rock in his face, and somehow he can't knock the rock away or even crawl away from the radiation. Once the Kryptonite is in Superman's bloodstream, he's experiencing pain: something to which he is VERY unaccustomed, he's panicking as he feels his body being ravaged by this poison, he's not thinking clearly. In other words? He's not fighting with even a modicum of common sense. Meanwhile? Batman can use the advantage he's always enjoyed over Superman: vastly superior fighting skills that more than negate anything Superman could think to do to him in his condition. 

Add the facts that Superman didn't even want to fight Batman at all and that he had to hold back even during the handful of seconds in which he had his full faculties available to him, and you've got a completely one-sided fight in which Superman can't help but look incapable because Batman systematically studied all his strengths, figured out how to counter them, and then went after him in a fight that was 100% on his terms.

----------


## Ascended

I've seen your defense of that fight before, and I can't argue with your logic. You have valid points for all of it, and you know I got mad respect for your love of that movie. 

But emotionally? I dont care. I didnt feel bad for Clark getting out-maneuvered. I didnt cheer at his resolve or his refusal to succumb from the K-radiation's pain. I felt bad for myself, having to watch Superman get his ass handed to him by Batman (again). And this time, it wasn't in the comfort of my own home and the privacy of my own comic collection, it was in a theater with dozens of other people who got to watch Clark's shame. 

You're right about that fight. But it still sucked. And I wish I could get behind it like you have, but I just cant.

----------


## The Kid

I think Reeve's Superman is still held up so much just because of the sheer success it had. I believe that if you adjust all superhero movies for inflation, only The Avengers, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Spider-Man, and Spider-Man 2 made more money. That's not just being successful. That's being one of the most successful movies ever made so it made a huge imprint on the character. For example, I don't think Dick Grayson can ever be Batman in the movies or Batman can go back to a more silver age/campy style now. Because Nolan's movies have set the standard for the character. Changing his personality and tone like that will probably display as big a push back as the different attempts at Superman have done

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I've seen your defense of that fight before, and I can't argue with your logic. You have valid points for all of it, and you know I got mad respect for your love of that movie. 
> 
> But emotionally? I dont care. I didnt feel bad for Clark getting out-maneuvered. I didnt cheer at his resolve or his refusal to succumb from the K-radiation's pain. I felt bad for myself, having to watch Superman get his ass handed to him by Batman (again). And this time, it wasn't in the comfort of my own home and the privacy of my own comic collection, it was in a theater with dozens of other people who got to watch Clark's shame. 
> 
> You're right about that fight. But it still sucked. And I wish I could get behind it like you have, but I just cant.


The fact that you were watching Batman handing Superman's ass to him while being fundamentally in the wrong should dull the shame somewhat, I would think. Batman was the villain at that point in the story. If you can tolerate Superman being taken to task by Lex Luthor in an anti-Superman suit, then surely you can tolerate the sight of a villainous Batman doing much the same thing until Superman wins the battle that actually mattered by showing Batman that he was wrong to do what he was doing? 

Every superhero battle is a story. The story here is that Batman is capable of beating Superman in a fight in which he controls every variable. The story is also that Batman is completely in the wrong for pursuing this battle against Superman in the first place. If Batman had been remotely rational, the fight never would have happened because Superman came to him wanting to talk. He came to him contrite and willing to admit his own mistakes in dealing with Batman thus far. Batman wasn't "The Dark Knight" in that battle. He was a thug and a bully, relentlessly pursuing the death of a good man because that man dared to exist upon this Earth without Batman's permission. Even Batman fans should not have been proud or happy to see their "hero" behaving so poorly against Superman. Any Batman fan with an ounce of objectivity should've been horrified at the sight of their hero spiraling down into out-and-out villainy. 

The story of this fight wasn't about who beat up who. It was about who was in the right. In this case, Superman was in the right, no matter how you look at it. Batman's victory over him was no different than if it had been Lex Luthor doing it instead of Batman. Evil almost won that battle. Not Batman. In the end, it was Superman who won the battle that actually mattered: the battle for Batman's soul. Superman stayed true to his principles, whereas Batman almost threw his away. Superman won the argument and proved to Batman that he was on the wrong side of history. 

That's how I see it, any way. Superman was supposed to lose the fight, but the fight wasn't the point. How far Batman had fallen was the point. Yes, he was able to dominate Superman.....in a fight that never should've happened that almost cost him everything that Batman is supposed to stand for. Batman's victory was nothing to celebrate and Superman's victory was the one that actually had real impact to the story.

----------


## ultrarider7

I thought the fight was fine and Supes is my favorite. This is his first time ever experiencing kryptonite, I can only imagine how someone with 33 years of thinking he is indestructible felt the moment Bruce stopped that punch, he thought he was made of steel, turns out he wasn't and the confusion he must of felt, the fight was fine for me. If he had encounters with kryptonite before the fight then okay I can see how someone would think of Clark as a moron but that fight had his first encounter ever with the kryptonite. Plus the guy said loud and clear if he wanted it Bruce would be dead, many people I've talked to who aren't comic book geeks and saw the film know that, "Superman always going easy, he would murder the bat if he wasn't holding back". 

Plus, Bruce was in the wrong there. It wasn't like in TDKR where everything Bruce did was right and you had to love Batman no matter what no questions asked. The film very clearly puts Bruce in a situation where he looks like a bully who you are not suppose to cheer since the guy is only making things worse by the stakes Lex set up, he learns his lesson at the end but in no way was the fight to show how much Superman sucks.

----------


## Frontier

> The fact that you were watching Batman handing Superman's ass to him while being fundamentally in the wrong should dull the shame somewhat, I would think. Batman was the villain at that point in the story. If you can tolerate Superman being taken to task by Lex Luthor in an anti-Superman suit, then surely you can tolerate the sight of a villainous Batman doing much the same thing until Superman wins the battle that actually mattered by showing Batman that he was wrong to do what he was doing?


Well when I have issue with Batman going as far off the rails as he did in that movie, it really doesn't make it more tolerable  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## Ascended

> The fact that you were watching Batman handing Superman's ass to him while being fundamentally in the wrong should dull the shame somewhat, I would think. Batman was the villain at that point in the story. If you can tolerate Superman being taken to task by Lex Luthor in an anti-Superman suit, then surely you can tolerate the sight of a villainous Batman doing much the same thing until Superman wins the battle that actually mattered by showing Batman that he was wrong to do what he was doing? 
> 
> That's how I see it, any way. Superman was supposed to lose the fight, but the fight wasn't the point. How far Batman had fallen was the point. Yes, he was able to dominate Superman.....in a fight that never should've happened that almost cost him everything that Batman is supposed to stand for. Batman's victory was nothing to celebrate and Superman's victory was the one that actually had real impact to the story.


Knowing Batman was the villain of that story, and the one who failed, does dull the pain a bit, but not nearly enough. 

And I think you're interpretation is correct (insofar as such things can be) and on an intellectual level I agree. But emotionally? Pain's too deep, bro.

----------


## Triple J

> Hmm, I think I never thought of that because I'm not under the impression that this Superman can do what you just said. I don't think his vision, or heat vision, is that good, because 1) he's still learning his powers (he can't even use freeze breath yet, and it takes time for him to switch between his visions) and 2) until now, he's not had any reason to hon his abilities to that point. You gotta remember that this is still young Superman vs 20 year veteran Batman. So Batman making Superman look not as smart is completely fine.
> 
> I think you're eventually gonna get the fully realized Superman you want.





> Ah, true! I forgot his heat vision isn't that accurate. Okay, he slams Bruce into a wall and tears him out of the armor with his bare hands (he was halfway there anyway) at super speed. 
> 
> Bottom line is they made Clark look bad. And I take that sh*t personal.  But yeah, I agree that we're probably getting a "fully realized" Superman once he returns from the dead.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, I will say that Clark has plenty of reason to hone his powers. Zod and his friends gave Clark plenty of reason to master his abilities, and if Clark spent the 18 months between MoS and BvS not practicing, then he's an idiot.


Sure..but Clark really hasn't met anyone of his class..that is, someone who can fight tow to tow with him (I do think that's the best way to train). Here's hoping we will get WW training Clark in the future. Maybe even Bruce, since both are experienced warriors with knowledge of various fighting styles.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It's also the fact that causal audiences have been treated to, more, or less, the same variations of Supes and Bats, until Snyder showed up. Even a lot of comic book fans hold the animated versions above the comic versions.
> 
> If the DCEU pans out, I honestly think that people will look back on BvS:UE, and see how crazy they were. Not saying Snyder is Kubrick, but that's kinda how his movies were treated; hated because they went against the norm, and then looked back on because they did things nobody even thought off. Snyder isn't going with the kind of ideas Kubrick did, but him having these icons actually be flawed humans, and as well as the world they live in be realistic, is totally against the norm for these CBMs.


The movie grating on people's pre-conceived notions on how the characters _have to_  behave is a huge element of the disappointment and backlash. The editing and storytelling problems don't erase that element of the reception. To many people, Superman can't be sad, Batman can't kill, and Lex has to be a hypermasculine baldy. And that's due in large part to the animated series' dominating people's perception. And you're totally right about Snyder taking artistic risks unthinkable for a comic book movie in that climate. And it's part of why I love it.

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> The movie grating on people's pre-conceived notions on how the characters _have to_  behave is a huge element of the disappointment and backlash. The editing and storytelling problems don't erase that element of the reception. To many people, Superman can't be sad, Batman can't kill, and Lex has to be a hypermasculine baldy. And that's due in large part to the animated series' dominating people's perception. And you're totally right about Snyder taking artistic risks unthinkable for a comic book movie in that climate. And it's part of why I love it.


Can you really blame them though? This is the DC Extended Universe, it was advertised as being the set up for the first live-action Justice League universe in history. A lot of people came into this expecting Warner Bros. to recreate the heroes that they grew up with in their most classic forms. But you're not wrong. Snyder's risky and alternative interpretations for these characters are interesting in their own right for sure but would've done better had they been part of a stand-alone Superman or Batman trilogy. Look at it like this, if Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight movies were the start of a cinematic universe I think the reception would've been largely similar to what we're seeing now (negative). Because of the character and mythology changes, it wouldn't fit with a greater Justice League styled universe. But by being a stand-alone project that doesn't connect to anything else and isn't building an official continuity people can more comfortably appreciate them for what they are and what they're trying to do. If a Man of Steel trilogy helmed by Snyder happened outside of the DC Extended Universe he could've been for Superman what Christopher Nolan was for Batman. But that's just my two cents

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## Lightning Rider

> Can you really blame them though? This is the DC Extended Universe, it was advertised as being the set up for the first live-action Justice League universe in history. A lot of people came into this expecting Warner Bros. to recreate the heroes that they grew up with in their most classic forms. But you're not wrong. Snyder's risky and alternative interpretations for these characters are interesting in their own right for sure but would've done better had they been part of a stand-alone Superman or Batman trilogy. Look at it like this, if Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight movies were the start of a cinematic universe I think the reception would've been largely similar to what we're seeing now (negative). Because of the character and mythology changes, it wouldn't fit with a greater Justice League styled universe. But by being a stand-alone project that doesn't connect to anything else and isn't building an official continuity people can more comfortably appreciate them for what they are and what they're trying to do. If a Man of Steel trilogy helmed by Snyder happened outside of the DC Extended Universe he could've been for Superman what Christopher Nolan was for Batman. But that's just my two cents


I mean, I'm younger than probably most on here. He certainly brought to life the heroes _I_ grew up reading. Post-Crisis and Elseworlds Superman & Miller's Batman was more relevant to my taste as a comic book fan than Reeve or the animated series' I watched as a child. But I think you're onto something that the shared universe dynamic created a different sort of responsibility artistically, perhaps. Deconstruction has more consequences.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> I mean, I'm younger than probably most on here. He certainly brought to life the heroes _I_ grew up reading. Post-Crisis and Elseworlds Superman & Miller's Batman was more relevant to my taste as a comic book fan than Reeve or the animated series' I watched as a child. But I think you're onto something that the shared universe dynamic created a different sort of responsibility artistically, perhaps. Deconstruction has more consequences.


That makes sense, personally I think an amalgamation of multiple different stories and interpretations make the most interesting universes. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's a minority opinion since looking at the lot of what DC critics have said they don't care for that. They want the Justice League they grew up with and nothing less. Hell, Marvel isn't even above these expectations. A lot of people criticized Age of Ultron because Hank Pym wasn't the one to create the titular villain. If small shit like that gets flak, it's not surprising something big like making Batman kill would cause outrage. 

Personally, I really like Henry Cavill's Superman and Ben Affleck's Batman isn't terrible either. But Lex really isn't my cup of tea. Not because he's a deviation but I just feel like his personality and actions feel kind of redundant in a universe where The Joker & The Riddler should be behaving similarly. It just leaves the intimidating big businessman niche unfilled. It's hit and miss for me but definitely not enough to make me despise Snyder or to think he ruined the DC Extended Universe.

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## FlashEarthOne

> That's beyond a doubt when it comes to *any* internet poll. If they're not scientific polls, they only represent the people who participated and nothing more.


Not to mention that internet polls can often fall victim to zealots posting under different identities.




> Well, while the movie did make decisions I would not (Doomsday, WW, JL teases, and Lex being so prominent), the script is still really good, and subtle. TBH, too subtle in most cases. Terrio has a degree in British Literature, and a love for literature in general, and he floods Lex's dialogue with lines, and quotes. People who have taken the time to dissect Lex's lines have discovered that EVERY SINGLE quote, and line, ties directly to his motivation, and characterization, either directly, or symbolically. The lines also play to his theme of knowledge equaling power, which he would, of course, given his background, lord over everyone, so he constantly does it.
> 
> The Martha Scene, which is made fun of is a great scene even if rushed a bit. While there's the element of their mothers having the same name, there's also the fact that Clark knows who Bruce is, and thus the tragedy in his life. Would it have worked if their moms didn't have the same name? Who knows, but there's coincidences in all movies. There's also the fact that Zack dedicates every movie to his mom, who's name is Marsha, and he's clearly made that a focus of Clark's motivation, which is why he constantly goes to her for advice, and/or reassurance. That's never been the case for Superman, as it's usually his dad that has the more prominent role in his development; here it seems to be equal, or edge in her direction.
> 
> The fact that, unlike Civil War, we actually DO get to hear, and see the perspective, of the mundane (the people) in regards to the larger than life characters the movie is about. Not only that, but they affect, and color the thoughts of, the heroes. In the MCU, they're phantoms that don't matter. In BvS, the senate building blows up, and we see the people react, as well as seeing Supes actively save the people rejecting him. In CW, the UN building blows up and we ONLY see how it affects the heroes, nor do we see them actively help anyone that's been hurt. The BvS scene grounds the movie in a way that keeps the CW scene sterile. In fact, throughout CW we never see how any of the events affect the people, while in BvS we see people mourn Supes.
> 
> The movie is subtle, and has a lot of layers to it.


I disagree that the script was "really good."  It was good but poorly paced.  Your point about being "too subtle" ties to my point about execution.  The extended cut was better, but they also should have been able to trim the fat off the script so that Warners would have been more likely to put that version in the theaters.  I think it was the case of Terrio trying to be too clever... and Snyder adding things last minute because he thought it would be a cool.  Once again it goes back to my point about ambition over cleaner execution.  Proper execution is more likely to lead to success that ambition that falls short of its intended goal.   




> Agreed. People expected Richard Donner and Chris Reeves. What they got was something else entirely, and a lot of people fail to recognize that Reeves, as great as he was (and I love his Superman) he isn't the be-all, end-all of what Superman is, or can be.


I hate it when people say "Reeves is Superman!"  Maybe 1 1/2 generations ago.  Time moves on people

----------


## batnbreakfast

While BvS made some weird choices, it was based on familiar source material mostly and my complaints go back to the movies concept stage, not the actual movie (why "vs"??). Oddly the two things that were horrible for me: Score and peach tea. I give BvS credit for not being a borefest like Thor, Suicide Squad and Doctor Strange but strangely for a movie named after one of its scenes the brawl between Bruce and Clark wasn't exciting or innovative enough.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Not to mention that internet polls can often fall victim to zealots posting under different identities.


Yep. That's constantly happening.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> The movie grating on people's pre-conceived notions on how the characters _have to_  behave is a huge element of the disappointment and backlash. The editing and storytelling problems don't erase that element of the reception. To many people, Superman can't be sad, Batman can't kill, and Lex has to be a hypermasculine baldy. And that's due in large part to the animated series' dominating people's perception. And you're totally right about Snyder taking artistic risks unthinkable for a comic book movie in that climate. And it's part of why I love it.


Again, nobody is saying that movies can't sometimes take risks with the characters. Nolan for example took a big risk with Batman when the last of that trilogy had Bruce literally retiring from being Batman, something that would never happen in the comics. However, being bold and taking risks is not enough. The movie actually has to be done well too. You don't get to say that a movie is a success if it failed to do a good job of telling a story simply because it tried to expose deeper themes. There are plenty of great movies that take risks and explore deeper themes, but the difference is that *they* actually tell a cohesive story as well. That's why critics love them.

BvS and SS were not good at telling a cohesive story. Wonder Woman was. Thats why critics love Wonder Woman and hate the other two.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

This article makes it seem like Superman's return, and how it's executed on film, will determine a lot in the DCEU:

http://heroicuniverse.com/15006-2/

I'm torn. I think the DCEU is bigger than Superman, but you have to get Superman down correctly if you're doing a DC movie-verse.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Again, nobody is saying that movies can't sometimes take risks with the characters. Nolan for example took a big risk with Batman when the last of that trilogy had Bruce literally retiring from being Batman, something that would never happen in the comics. However, being bold and taking risks is not enough. The movie actually has to be done well too. You don't get to say that a movie is a success if it failed to do a good job of telling a story simply because it tried to expose deeper themes. There are plenty of great movies that take risks and explore deeper themes, but the difference is that *they* actually tell a cohesive story as well. That's why critics love them.
> 
> BvS and SS were not good at telling a cohesive story. Wonder Woman was. Thats why critics love Wonder Woman and hate the other two.


Cohesiveness and characterization choices are two different issues. I was only speaking about the latter.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Again, nobody is saying that movies can't sometimes take risks with the characters. Nolan for example took a big risk with Batman when the last of that trilogy had Bruce literally retiring from being Batman, something that would never happen in the comics. However, being bold and taking risks is not enough. The movie actually has to be done well too. You don't get to say that a movie is a success if it failed to do a good job of telling a story simply because it tried to expose deeper themes. There are plenty of great movies that take risks and explore deeper themes, but the difference is that *they* actually tell a cohesive story as well. That's why critics love them.
> 
> BvS and SS were not good at telling a cohesive story. Wonder Woman was. Thats why critics love Wonder Woman and hate the other two.


BvS:UE told a clear and cohesive. Everything is explained in the script and acting. The only people that say it's incoherent didn't listen, or really pay attention. 

Maybe it's because I'm a guy that watches subtitled movies, and shows, but I caught onto everything on the first watch of both versions we got. It's not hard at all.

SS, however, is incoherent.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I disagree that the script was "really good."  It was good but poorly paced.  Your point about being "too subtle" ties to my point about execution.  The extended cut was better, but they also should have been able to trim the fat off the script so that Warners would have been more likely to put that version in the theaters.  I think it was the case of Terrio trying to be too clever... and Snyder adding things last minute because he thought it would be a cool.  Once again it goes back to my point about ambition over cleaner execution.  Proper execution is more likely to lead to success that ambition that falls short of its intended goal.


The only fat that should've been trimmed was the JL teases (including the Knightmare scene, which I agree is likely something Snyder thought would be cool to add in), Doomsday, and WW.

Everything else is fine, and adds to all the characters.

----------


## Korath

> BvS:UE told a clear and cohesive. Everything is explained in the script and acting. The only people that say it's incoherent didn't listen, or really pay attention. 
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm a guy that watches subtitled movies, and shows, but I caught onto everything on the first watch of both versions we got. It's not hard at all.
> 
> SS, however, is incoherent.


Pretty much. BvS Extended Cut explains everything : why Batman is going as far as he goes and since when, why he attacks Superman, and why Superman quickly resort to beating him into submission when they confront, which has been so controversial. And it's all explained in two scenes where Clark is central.

First when he goes to investigate in Gotham, the old man says to him that a new kind of rage as taken hold of the Bat and that he should be careful, but then a woman says that only those who are evil have to fear the Bat. With just that, we understand the viewpoint of the Batman : you don't stop to talk with criminal, not anymore. You take them down as hard as you can. And the whole film is Batman seeing Superman more and more like an evil and dangerous alien. Hence why he doesn't listen.

Then you have the scene when Clark talks to the widow of the Bat-branded criminal who was just then killed. She told him that someone like Batman can't be talked to, can't be reasoned with. he has to be taken down in a fight to listen. And when Clark confront the Bat for the second time, what does he see ? A man who refuses to listen and force his hands to try and beat him into submission, something he almost achieve. 

And even in the cinematic cut, the controversial scene of the bombing and why Superman saw nothing is explained : when Clark and Lois are watching the news about Superman and that Lois tells to Clark that he should hear what they say, he said "I don't care. I. Don't. Care". it's super important because it demonstrates that he wants to do good without having to cope with what peoples of (institutional or ideological) power have to say to him. In a sense, he doesn't pay attention to his surrounding. Therefore, in the bombing scene, he did not notice the strangeness of the wheelchair. The extended cut add the fact that he couldn't see into it anyway, but it's important to note that he did not remark the strangeness of the chair. 

And it's something which holds true for most of the film, if one search for it. In fact, this movie explains everything but require the audience to be active. To the contrary, Wonder Woman leave a lot of questions like why did Ludendorff had a somewhat kind super-strength (also why was he called Ludendorff, an actual officer of the German Army in WWI ? I know this war is not as well known than the 2nd by the public, even here in France, but still, it surprised me a lot and I do not consider myself too much of an history lorebook when it comes to WWI), when did Diana was born from Zeus (no matter how it happened), how did Diana and Trevor's ship went from the coast of Turkey to London in one night without Steve being surprised ? None of this is explained in the film. And that's from the top of my head, if I rewatched it I'm certain. It doesn't deter for the story which is told, but it got me out of the film for the most part of it, something BvS never did. 

Now, Suicide Squad... That's an hot piece of turd. Honestly, I would kill to see Ayer's original vision of it, I'm sure it would have been far better.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Now, Suicide Squad... That's an hot piece of turd. Honestly, I would kill to see Ayer's original vision of it, I'm sure it would have been far better.


What do we know about it? The novelization by Wolfman explains the Joker's teeth were ruined from electro shock therapy.

----------


## Confuzzled

> To the contrary, Wonder Woman leave a lot of questions like why did Ludendorff had a somewhat kind super-strength...


Maybe he used Doctor Poison's toxins before and that's what she was referring to as "his former strength" to flatter him.




> (also why was he called Ludendorff, an actual officer of the German Army in WWI ? I know this war is not as well known than the 2nd by the public, even here in France, but still, it surprised me a lot and I do not consider myself too much of an history lorebook when it comes to WWI),


To give it a surreal feel by mixing real world figures and elements with supernatural ones.




> when did Diana was born from Zeus (no matter how it happened),


That was deliberately left vague. It doesn't really matter. Or rather, the unsurety over her age adds to Diana's mystique.




> how did Diana and Trevor's ship went from the coast of Turkey to London in one night without Steve being surprised?


How do you know it was just one night?

----------


## Korath

> Maybe he used Doctor Poison's toxins before and that's what she was referring to as "his former strength" to flatter him.


Then it should at least explained better than that at the end, before his death. Just a line like "Doctor's Poison's beverage have always done me wonders" or something. I know why it was in the film, but still confusing at the end (I don't want to elaborate too much on it, for fear of spoiling peoples who wouldn't have seen the film yet).




> That was deliberately left vague. It doesn't really matter. Or rather, the unsurety over her age adds to Diana's mystique.


It's confusing, and terribly so. We see her as a very young girl (roughly 8 years old) and she hears of the mythical fall of Zeus in ages past. Then, we learn the tale(s) of her origin, and in both cases it is problematic because it was implied that she was created long after the establishing of Paradise Island, when it shouldn't have been possible, per the film's own internal chronology of events. It has completely thrown me out of the film for a great deal of time, each time it was mentioned. 




> How do you know it was just one night?


They go to sleep, and next scene they are in London, with no mention of weeks (because from Turkey to England in this kind of boats, that what it would takes) passed on it. In basic cinematic construction, they went to sleep and awoke at another place. And again, no mention of weeks that I remember off. Is Themyscira a moving Island ? Is the boat magical ? We don't know, and that's a problem to me.




> What do we know about it? The novelization by Wolfman explains the Joker's teeth were ruined from electro shock therapy.


I think that Ayer would have avoided the bad "Marvel comedy"and crafted a more cohesive film. His first trailer was far more in touch with what peoples expect of villains (disturbing, dark and clearly evil).

----------


## darkseidpwns

> BvS:UE told a clear and cohesive. Everything is explained in the script and acting. The only people that say it's incoherent didn't listen, or really pay attention. 
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm a guy that watches subtitled movies, and shows, but I caught onto everything on the first watch of both versions we got. It's not hard at all.
> 
> SS, however, is incoherent.


Batman wants to kill Superman because Metropolis battle
Batman wants to kill Superman because bad dream which is actually sneak peek to JL
Batman wants to kill Superman because 1% theory
Batman wants to kill Superman because 20 years in Gotham
Batman wants to kill Superman because he wants to do something that leaves a legacy
Batman wants to kill Superman because some random guy commits suicide bombing (to the rest of the world).
Batman does not want to kill Superman because Martha.

What a stellar example of clarity and cohesion. Hush aka THOMAS Elliot must be the luckiest villain in DCEU, poor Arnold Wesker though.

----------


## Korath

The Martha scene is Bruce actually putting a human nature to someone he saw only as an alien. What's more, Lois Lane (a journalist he clearly has to know, since he knows the Daily Planet and its editorial) intervene and care for Superman. Plus, batman in the film is losing the battle with his trauma (as it is seen in the nightmare where a bat-monster attacks him from his mother's grave) and isn't thinking straight (as expressed by Alfred himself several times in the movie). He even has to take pills (as seen in the EC) ! 

You'll remark that he is confused at why Clark talked about Martha but he is clearly angry and ready to strike at him still. That's why he screams "Why did you say that name !" so harshly. He thinks that Superman is mocking him somehow, that's why he stays his hands. It's only when Lois, a human, intervene to explain the situation to Bruce that he calms down and realize that he has almost become what he vowed to fought. In addition, note that the scene where he departs the port (or the warehouse, I've a doubt right now) is clearly inspired by 3rd Type encounters as depicted in popular culture : the lights of the batplane at the window and its engine's sound, powerful but not deep as our engines, which depict how blind Batman was/is to the fact that, with his technology, he is as much an alien as Superman to the common people.

That's the realization that he is no different than Superman that drive him to spare his life, that the alien actually has a human mother he cares about more than his life that truly stops Batman, not the name.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The Martha scene is Bruce actually putting a human nature to someone he saw only as an alien. What's more, Lois Lane (a journalist he clearly has to know, since he knows the Daily Planet and its editorial) intervene and care for Superman. Plus, batman in the film is losing the battle with his trauma (as it is seen in the nightmare where a bat-monster attacks him from his mother's grave) and isn't thinking straight (as expressed by Alfred himself several times in the movie). He even has to take pills (as seen in the EC) !


In other words this chuckle head in the film wasn't Batman, just some guy who dresses like a Bat.




> You'll remark that he is confused at why Clark talked about Martha but he is clearly angry and ready to strike at him still. That's why he screams "Why did you say that name !" so harshly. He thinks that Superman is mocking him somehow, that's why he stays his hands. It's only when Lois, a human, intervene to explain the situation to Bruce that he calms down and realize that he has almost become what he vowed to fought. In addition, note that the scene where he departs the port (or the warehouse, I've a doubt right now) is clearly inspired by 3rd Type encounters as depicted in popular culture : the lights of the batplane at the window and its engine's sound, powerful but not deep as our engines, which depict how blind Batman was/is to the fact that, with his technology, he is as much an alien as Superman to the common people.


And then he goes to murder a few guys, whatever realization he got didn't last long.




> That's the realization that he is no different than Superman that drive him to spare his life, that the alien actually has a human mother he cares about more than his life that truly stops Batman, not the name.


And if the alien had a human mother named Jessica your entire argument would have been voided.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> SS, however, is incoherent.





> Now, Suicide Squad... That's an hot piece of turd.


No, it's not. The theatrical cut of "BvS" has much more evident pacing/editing problems than "Suicide Squad".

----------


## Lightning Rider

> In other words this chuckle head in the film wasn't Batman, just some guy who dresses like a Bat.
> 
> 
> 
> And then he goes to murder a few guys, whatever realization he got didn't last long.
> 
> 
> 
> And if the alien had a human mother named Jessica your entire argument would have been voided.


Yeah, Batman never shows trauma and paranoia in the comics. Right.

We don't know how he would have reacted had he said Jessica. He might have paused, but he wouldn't have been prompted to react quite the same way. Which is the point; it humanizes Superman in a more personal way for Batman.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> What do we know about it? The novelization by Wolfman explains the Joker's teeth were ruined from electro shock therapy.


There are some general conjectures floating around based on various inconsistencies in the film, off the top of my head:

-The non-diegetic pop music (7 Nation Army, Sympathy For The Devil, Fortunate Son and so on) was not in Ayer's cut. 
-Neither was the title card introductions of the main characters. 
-Ayer's cut had a much darker and more abusive relationship between Harley Quinn and Joker. He pushed her out of the helicopter instead of her falling out of it, and the finale had her finally rejecting him to instead find a new "family" in the Suicide Squad.
-Boomerang was a lot more overtly racist and misogynist, and bails on the squad instead of helping them in the finale.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah, Batman never shows trauma and paranoia in the comics. Right.
> 
> We don't know how he would have reacted had he said Jessica. He might have paused, but he wouldn't have been prompted to react quite the same way. Which is the point; it humanizes Superman in a more personal way for Batman.


He doesn't become a killer and he retains consistency, I literally gave you examples of him fluctuating. They threw every thing at the wall to make that rivalry work and failed.
Oh sure, saving people on live television doesn't humanize him, a name does. Batman cares about saving lives first and foremost not the names of the people he fights or their parents names or uncles names, or cousin names or their dogs name.

I guarantee you if BvS had succeeded in crafting a proper rivalry between the 2 titular characters along with a proper resolution then that alone ensured a FAR more respectable showing for it.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I think that Ayer would have avoided the bad "Marvel comedy"and crafted a more cohesive film. His first trailer was far more in touch with what peoples expect of villains (disturbing, dark and clearly evil).


Objection, your honor! I have no complaints with the comedy. Just because the "heroes" are villains the movie doesn't need to be dark/disturbing etc. Personally I'd like the tone of Rogue One or Renegades (Luc Besson) for a sequel. More war movie than dark drama. Or something smaller in scope and street level like Training Day.

----------


## Korath

Well, comedy at times can be great, but after nine years of MCU, I'm kind of burned by their humour (especially during fight scenes) and I felt that Suicide Squad was Warner trying to replicate it but being so bad that it was cliché and not gimmick.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> There are some general conjectures floating around based on various inconsistencies in the film, off the top of my head:
> 
> -The non-diegetic pop music (7 Nation Army, Sympathy For The Devil, Fortunate Son and so on) was not in Ayer's cut. 
> -Neither was the title card introductions of the main characters. 
> -Ayer's cut had a much darker and more abusive relationship between Harley Quinn and Joker. He pushed her out of the helicopter instead of her falling out of it, and the finale had her finally rejecting him to instead find a new "family" in the Suicide Squad.
> -Boomerang was a lot more overtly racist and misogynist, and bails on the squad instead of helping them in the finale.


The music could have been a nice touch if it were more to my tastes. The SS soundtrack was hit or miss with one or two bad choices. The original choices for Boomerang and Harley do sound better. Why the director's cut added that horrible motorcycle scene... no idea. Harley is no Captain America, not even Catwoman.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Well, comedy at times can be great, but after nine years of MCU, I'm kind of burned by their humour (especially during fight scenes) and I felt that Suicide Squad was Warner trying to replicate it but being so bad that it was cliché and not gimmick.


I can relate to that but the only letdown from Marvel were Thor, Iron Man and Doc Strange for me. I hope for Black Manta surviving Aquadude, then showing up in the SS sequel (*sigh* fanboy dreams, I know)

----------


## Punisher007

> There are some general conjectures floating around based on various inconsistencies in the film, off the top of my head:
> 
> -The non-diegetic pop music (7 Nation Army, Sympathy For The Devil, Fortunate Son and so on) was not in Ayer's cut. 
> -Neither was the title card introductions of the main characters. 
> -Ayer's cut had a much darker and more abusive relationship between Harley Quinn and Joker. He pushed her out of the helicopter instead of her falling out of it, and the finale had her finally rejecting him to instead find a new "family" in the Suicide Squad.
> -Boomerang was a lot more overtly racist and misogynist, and bails on the squad instead of helping them in the finale.


Interesting.  Lets see here:

-The music could have maybe work if they'd used different songs and/or integrated them into the context of the film better.
-The title cards shouldn't have been added in.
-The Joker/Harley and Boomerang stuff sounds more interesting than what we got (and even though it's rather cliché, it still would have maybe given poor Katana SOMETHING to do in that film).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> He doesn't become a killer








> Oh sure, saving people on live television doesn't humanize him, a name does. Batman cares about saving lives first and foremost not the names of the people he fights or their parents names or uncles names, or cousin names or their dogs name.


He also saw Superman in a fight that destroyed many lives. Strange to leave that out. 




> I guarantee you if BvS had succeeded in crafting a proper rivalry between the 2 titular characters along with a proper resolution then that alone ensured a FAR more respectable showing for it.


Circular logic."If it were good, it would have been good. It wasn't good, so it's not good."

----------


## Punisher007

Ah yes, the tiny amount of times out of 70+ years of existence.  Truly this is the definitive take on the character.  It's not like 98% of writers have written him as having a strict no-kill rule or anything.  And they didn't even really address it within the film itself, which is even more sad.

And I could spend like an hour just going over how idiotic and over-convoluted Lex Luthor's "plan" is.

----------


## Agent Z

> Ah yes, the tiny amount of times out of 70+ years of existence.  Truly this is the definitive take on the character.  It's not like 98% of writers have written him as having a strict no-kill rule or anything.  And they didn't even really address it within the film itself, which is even more sad.
> 
> And I could spend like an hour just going over how idiotic and over-convoluted Lex Luthor's "plan" is.


It being a small amount of time in his history doesn't mean it's non-existent and they did acknowledge it in the film.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Cohesiveness and characterization choices are two different issues. I was only speaking about the latter.


Yeah, but you do realize that, even if you have characterization, a movie still has to have a allow audiences to actually get to know the characters, right? That can't be accomplished when ever scene is like a minute long and then we cut to another scene. BvS and SS both rushed through getting to know the characters and just presumed we'd get into the story, but even then, it rushed through the story.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Ah yes, the tiny amount of times out of 70+ years of existence.


You call that death toll tiny? Or that the list is exhaustive, either? 




> Truly this is the definitive take on the character.


Do you live in a barn? Because that straw-man is impressive.




> It's not like 98% of writers have written him as having a strict no-kill rule or anything.  And they didn't even really address it within the film itself, which is even more sad.


You're right, it's not like that.




> And I could spend like an hour just going over how idiotic and over-convoluted Lex Luthor's "plan" is.


Funny, I could explain it in 2 sentences.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> He also saw Superman in a fight that destroyed many lives. Strange to leave that out. 
> 
> 
> 
> Circular logic."If it were good, it would have been good. It wasn't good, so it's not good."


He saw Superman fighting hostile invaders, he saw Superman saving people over the course of 2 years. What about Batman leaving widows and massive destruction during his fights? oh wait this is supposed to be _consistent_.

Its not circular logic, that's you using inconsistency across almost 80 years of comics to justify bad story telling. Yes because Zack Snyder is such a fan of the Golden Age, that's why he used Doomsday...oops. And I love how you used a scan of Batman not killing (from TDKR) to prove your point.
Maybe Wonder Woman should have been depicted like we see her in Injustice, that's part of her history too right. The level of reaching is amusing.

Infact looking at the scans, there are PLENTY of moments where he didn't kill but some DCEU fanboy just cropped them out of context to prove his point and yes it is small and exhaustive. 80 YEARS, *80*, those are absolutely nothing in comparison and like I said this evidence has zero credibility because its doctored. Nice try though.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> He saw Superman fighting hostile invaders, he saw Superman saving people over the course of 2 years. What about Batman leaving widows and massive destruction during his fights? oh wait this is supposed to be _consistent_.


Just because his position is flawed or hypocritical doesn't mean they don't have a logical outflow from emotional events. Bruce's parents weren't criminals. By contrast he saved a little girl who watched their parents die just like he did, because these Super Beings had a war on Earth.




> Its not circular logic, that's you using inconsistency across almost 80 years of comics to justify bad story telling. Yes because Zack Snyder is such a fan of the Golden Age, that's why he used Doomsday...oops. And I love how you used a scan of Batman not killing (from TDKR) to prove your point.


Using comic book history involving celebrated and historic runs to justify a character choice? What was I thinking. Let me just ask what your favorite version of the character is and then justify my every judgement on that!

Any scan I used from TDKR either indirectly causes deaths, much like the film, or is at least ambiguously depicting a killing. 

I don't care if you didn't like the story, I care if people say the characterizations were invalid.




> Maybe Wonder Woman should have been depicted like we see her in Injustice, that's part of her history too right.


Oh yeah Injustice definitely compares to Batman's seminal story and decades of runs since his Golden Age foundations, ace comparison there. Yet somehow I'm reaching.

----------


## LordTrump

> There are some general conjectures floating around based on various inconsistencies in the film, off the top of my head:
> 
> -The non-diegetic pop music (7 Nation Army, Sympathy For The Devil, Fortunate Son and so on) was not in Ayer's cut. 
> -Neither was the title card introductions of the main characters. 
> -Ayer's cut had a much darker and more abusive relationship between Harley Quinn and Joker. He pushed her out of the helicopter instead of her falling out of it, and the finale had her finally rejecting him to instead find a new "family" in the Suicide Squad.
> -Boomerang was a lot more overtly racist and misogynist, and bails on the squad instead of helping them in the finale.


Wait....what? I kinda wanna hear about this Boomerang stuff.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Wait....what? I kinda wanna hear about this Boomerang stuff.


I didn't go to any test screenings and am basing this off memories from reading stuff written by people who did (you can probably find them via google), but Boomerang made racist and sexist comments to Katana and was generally set up as the focus of the audience's ire over the main characters being villains. He bails from the team when he gets the chance in the bar scene, just like in the original cut, but doesn't get back together with them for the finale (remember that incredibly off-beat shot of him returning without explanation? That was the result of re-shoots.) This also lines up much better with the ending where he's screaming in his cell, with no amount of redemption.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

LOL, the non killing rule Everyone knows it exist just for recicle money cash villains, but yet some people became zealots about it. I dont want heroes killing every time, but im sick of dull stories where it looks like Joker life is more important than his victims

oh, yeah, Injustice and its portrayal of almost every DC character can root in helll

----------


## Doctor Know

Nobody cares about comic heroes killing in media. Just about every hero that's been adapted from DC and Marvel has killed someone. 


Superman - Zod and Doomsday

Batman - Has killed in every live action adaptation since Batman 1989, except in Batman and Robin

Wonder Woman - Ares

Green Arrow - A long list of people

Supergirl - Parasite, Metallo and presumably some Daxamites

Iron Man - Middle Eastern terrorists and Extremis solderis

Captain America - Nazis, HYDRA members and neo-Hydra members

Hulk - TIH and Avengers AoU both state that Banner kills people (indirectly) when he Hulks out. Blonsky's team was deliberate though.

Black Widow - Is an assassin

Hawkeye - Is an assassin

Winter Soldier - Is an assassin

Falcon - Killed Neo-Hydra members

Thor - Frost Giants, Dark Elves and other beasts

Ant-Man - Yellowjacket (ripped him inside out).

Rhodey - Extremsis soldiers

Scarlet Witch - Blew up the Wakandan Embassy, accidently. Killed people indrectly when she set the Hulk lose on that city in AoU.

Vision - If you consider A.I. to be life (the Captain Picard/TNG standard); then Ultron counts for Vision.

Dr Strange - Killed one of Kaecilius' men in the hospital fight.

Jessica Jones - Kilgrave

Spider-Man - Venom and Electro

Deadpool - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Wolverine - ¡¡¡HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Storm - Toad and Calisto

Cyclops, Jean, Magneto and Storm killed Apocalypse


If I'm forgetting anyone, please feel free to list them. But as you can see, lethal force is deployed by scores of comic book characters, across various forms of media. Nobody cares 99% of the time. And it's hippocratic to not address that fact and hold characters like Superman and Batman to a standard, that other characters don't have to meet. Either it's ok some of the time (since not every character needs to be Frank Castle, Logan, or Deadpool when it comes to lethal force) or it's never ok, and I'd expected to see the MCU and CW characters face the same condemnation that the DC movie characters face.


Shout out to Matt Murdock, Barry Allen, Luke Cage, and Ray Palmer for keeping it clean, against all the odds they face.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Superman - *Zod* and Doomsday


Does that include _Superman II_?  :Wink:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Just because his position is flawed or hypocritical doesn't mean they don't have a logical outflow from emotional events. Bruce's parents weren't criminals. By contrast he saved a little girl who watched their parents die just like he did, because these Super Beings had a war on Earth.
> 
> 
> 
> Using comic book history involving celebrated and historic runs to justify a character choice? What was I thinking. Let me just ask what your favorite version of the character is and then justify my every judgement on that!
> 
> Any scan I used from TDKR either indirectly causes deaths, much like the film, or is at least ambiguously depicting a killing. 
> 
> I don't care if you didn't like the story, I care if people say the characterizations were invalid.
> ...


Your scans have no credibility, they are misleading and lack contest, just look at the Darkseid scan. Did you even read these stories? 
What celebrated runs are you talking about? many of the Goldenage stories have been rewritten to fit with the modern version from Monster Men to Mad Monk to the Man Who Laughs.
There is no ambiguity in TDKR and if you think there is then watch the animated version.

There is no logic to Bruce , Iiterally gave you a list of half a dozen reasons Snyder used to justify an enmity with Superman.

I already addressed your bogus claim of seminal stories and you doctored scans. You are 100 % reaching and Injustice gets better reviews than Zack Snyder garbage as well, I dont like them either but there's logic, consistency and solid story telling behind what they do.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Nobody cares about comic heroes killing in media. Just about every hero that's been adapted from DC and Marvel has killed someone. 
> 
> 
> Superman - Zod and Doomsday
> 
> Batman - Has killed in every live action adaptation since Batman 1989, except in Batman and Robin
> 
> Wonder Woman - Ares
> 
> ...


Not to mention the biggest hipocrisy with al this killing stuff, and that is it only applies when the killed one looks human. Nobody baits an eye if some parademons die, but isf Diana kills a scumbag like Max Lord, her so called friends judge her . I  dont want more stupid stories like that one

----------


## darkseidpwns

That was written by a Wonder Woman writer who coincidentally is also writing her book currently. Lets not pretend it was written by the Bat/Super crew.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Batman - Has killed in every live action adaptation since Batman 1989, except in Batman and Robin


Until 2005 the Batman adaptions were very loosely based on Batman, while moviewise some of them were fine they are not good adaptions for me. At least Nolan got like 90% right but dropped the ball when mounting guns on the Batpod. It's like James Bond and Punisher using rubber bullets only.

----------


## Agent Z

> That was written by a Wonder Woman writer who coincidentally is also writing her book currently. Lets not pretend it was written by the Bat/Super crew.


Who wrote it is irrelevant. It was in line with how Superman and Batman react to killing. Superman had a similar reaction to Diana killing some demons in Action Comics 761, Superman's own book.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Your scans have no credibility, they are misleading and lack contest, just look at the Darkseid scan. Did you even read these stories?


They're not misleading at all. If you don't consider the comics credible I'm not sure what you consider source material. 

Did I read Final Crisis? Yes. Batman kills Darkseid in it, or at least tries to. 

You're not going to explain away Batman dropping a statue on a bunch of henchmen, kicking a henchman onto a sword, breaking someone's neck, and hanging someone with "context". 





> What celebrated runs are you talking about? many of the Goldenage stories have been rewritten to fit with the modern version from Monster Men to Mad Monk to the Man Who Laughs.
> There is no ambiguity in TDKR and if you think there is then watch the animated version.


Show me any golden age stories that retcon deaths _into_ the story. Ten Nights of the Beast, TKDR, TDKSA, on and on. I can pull up the articles if you're convince I'm lying.

There is absolutely ambiguity in TDKR. The animated movie means nothing as its a different creator's interpretation of it. He likely shoots the mutant holding a child, he possibly kills the Joker and has that conversation with him in his head (different color text), and definitely laughs as mutants blow up bouncing rockets off of his tank.

Hell, in the animated version he shoots someone holding a grenade with a rubber bullet and they blow themselves up. Just like when he kicks the henchman in the warehouse scene. 




> There is no logic to Bruce , Iiterally gave you a list of half a dozen reasons Snyder used to justify an enmity with Superman.


So there's no logic to Bruce because he has multiple stated reasons laying a foundation for his thought process...not following that train of thought. 




> I already addressed your bogus claim of seminal stories and you doctored scans. You are 100 % reaching and Injustice gets better reviews than Zack Snyder garbage as well, I dont like them either but there's logic, consistency and solid story telling behind what they do.


So you think I'm doctoring scans? Now who's reaching lol. Why don't you go through each one, and then I'm sure that once you realize they're not doctored in any way you'll admit you were wrong. Right?

Also Injustice is a fighting game, the story exists to make the characters fight, I don't care about it and it's not relevant to the DCEU.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The only fat that should've been trimmed was the JL teases (including the Knightmare scene, which I agree is likely something Snyder thought would be cool to add in), Doomsday, and WW.
> 
> Everything else is fine, and adds to all the characters.


Even if those were the only issues that adds up to quite a bit of screen time.  It adds to the pacing issues.  




> No, it's not. The theatrical cut of "BvS" has much more evident pacing/editing problems than "Suicide Squad".


I liked BvS in both versions but I'm not going to pretend that there aren't issues with both.  Repeating over and over that BvS was great and Snyder is a master storyteller doesn't make it true. Especially when I have really only encountered maybe four people who actually think that.  They all happen to be the movie's defenders on this board.  Saying that, "the only people who didn't like it didn't understand it or didn't pay attention" is the biggest cop out.  Many people understood and paid attention to the story and still didn't think it was great... some/quite a few didn't even think it was good.  I could be just as easily dismissive and say, "if you thought BvS was great then you don't understand the meaning of great."  That is how cheap the "misunderstood masterpiece" defense is.  That is why I won't say it. Within the industry most people that I have talked to didn't even think  it was good much less great.  I thought the extended cut was good... no way did I think it was great.

----------


## Lightning Rider

The most obvious pacing issues BvS had were a quick choppy beginning that throws you into the story with the Africa angle, a long wait for any action beyond the car chase, and the randomness of the Knightmare sequence. The theatrical cut solves some of this but not all of it.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> The most obvious pacing issues BvS had were a quick choppy beginning that throws you into the story with the Africa angle, a long wait for any action beyond the car chase, and the randomness of the Knightmare sequence. The theatrical cut solves some of this but not all of it.


The knghtmare scene IIRC wasn't scripted and it shows other than that I think BvS UE is paced fine.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The most obvious pacing issues BvS had were a quick choppy beginning that throws you into the story with the Africa angle, a long wait for any action beyond the car chase, and the randomness of the Knightmare sequence. The theatrical cut solves some of this but not all of it.


I agree on all counts.  The latter two being the most common complaints that I hear from people.  People really hate the Knightmare sequence... but I think the long wait for action disappointed many.  If there had been more action early on I think people would have been more forgiving.  A lot of the casual fans that I have talked to found the first half of the movie to be boring.  Some people talk about people not paying attention.  I think there is some truth to it... as I have to talked to more and more people who were bored up until the Knightmare sequence and then completely confused by it.  

The Doomsday fight lasted forever but so do most of the climactic action scenes of comic movies.  Both Avengers movies had endings that kept going... and going... and going.  The worst was Iron Man 3...

----------


## Troian

Imo even the ultimate edition of BvS was still not that good. It was an improvement yes, but the overall story just wasn't that great regardless and it was even worse because it felt like it went on forever. WW stayed safe with a basic origin story, even if it still could have trimmed down several minutes of scenes and maybe tried a few risks, it was still serviceable. But that's just my two cents.

----------


## Triple J

> I agree on all counts.  The latter two being the most common complaints that I hear from people.  People really hate the Knightmare sequence... but I think the long wait for action disappointed many.  If there had been more action early on I think people would have been more forgiving.  A lot of the casual fans that I have talked to found the first half of the movie to be boring.  Some people talk about people not paying attention.  I think there is some truth to it... as I have to talked to more and more people who were bored up until the Knightmare sequence and then completely confused by it.  
> 
> The Doomsday fight lasted forever but so do most of the climactic action scenes of comic movies.  Both Avengers movies had endings that kept going... and going... and going.  The worst was Iron Man 3...


I think so too...BvS is a lot more dialogue centric than most other CBMs. I think it would have been a lot better if Knightmare sequence was kept as end credits (or Easter egg or something, along with JL intro scenes) and replace that with another fight sequence (right after Clark first encounters Bruce as Batman).

Almost all of the action sequences are kept towards the end of the film, which I think was a mistake. Yeah, there are a lot of tiny details that get lost (maybe because people aren't interested in investing the time anyways...don't really fault them for it. I mean, we are comic book nerds and we are already interested in this stuff. I don't imagine audience will be). And it becomes even more difficult when they find the movie to be boring.

Overall, BvS has a solid premise which they could have easily extended to two whole movies. Well, in any case, they have a pretty solid base to work with...and built upon. JL will be much simpler, but a lot more action, which I think should interest the GA a lot more. Hopefully people will also learn to look past their preconceived notions about certain characters (thankfully - Barry, Arthur and Vic won't have much issues with that).

----------


## darkseidpwns

> They're not misleading at all. If you don't consider the comics credible I'm not sure what you consider source material. 
> 
> Did I read Final Crisis? Yes. Batman kills Darkseid in it, or at least tries to. 
> 
> You're not going to explain away Batman dropping a statue on a bunch of henchmen, kicking a henchman onto a sword, breaking someone's neck, and hanging someone with "context".


Yes its misleading, he neither killed Darkseid nor did he even try to, his intention was to hurt him enough that he would vacate Turpin's body which he was using as a vessel, for all the claims that BVS fanboys make of people not getting that film maybe they should also go for basic comprehension skills themselves. Your entire body of evidence is tainted or Golden Age which has been rewritten.






> Show me any golden age stories that retcon deaths _into_ the story. Ten Nights of the Beast, TKDR, TDKSA, on and on. I can pull up the articles if you're convince I'm lying.
> 
> There is absolutely ambiguity in TDKR. The animated movie means nothing as its a different creator's interpretation of it. He likely shoots the mutant holding a child, he possibly kills the Joker and has that conversation with him in his head (different color text), and definitely laughs as mutants blow up bouncing rockets off of his tank.
> 
> Hell, in the animated version he shoots someone holding a grenade with a rubber bullet and they blow themselves up. Just like when he kicks the henchman in the warehouse scene.


 Monster Men, The Man Who Laughs, Mad Monk are modern day rewrites of Golden Age stories, same goes for the various origin stories of the different villains over the years. Those stories have all been rewritten to fit a modern context. Tom King's Batman for example acknowledged the Golden Age meeting between Batman and Catwoman, his Batman is not a killer. 

TDKR made it abundantly clear that non lethal methods were being used, they beat you over the head with it. You never saw any actual deaths, case closed. One scene in particular which master story teller Zack interpreted as Batman killing someone infact outright showed the bad guy surviving, referring to the mutant shooting scene.

TDKSA was as panned as BVS, I guess now you'll pass off Kevin Smith's stories as seminal right? there was ambiguity in the Beast storyline which was later retconned in to not being ambiguous.




> So there's no logic to Bruce because he has multiple stated reasons laying a foundation for his thought process...not following that train of thought.


I gave you a list of half a dozen incoherent babblings on Bruce's part. 






> So you think I'm doctoring scans? Now who's reaching lol. Why don't you go through each one, and then I'm sure that once you realize they're not doctored in any way you'll admit you were wrong. Right?
> 
> Also Injustice is a fighting game, the story exists to make the characters fight, I don't care about it and it's not relevant to the DCEU.


You or whoever compiled them together, if you taint evidence then that evidence is inadmissible. Maybe that guy should go back and read TDKR and Final Crisis all over again instead of telling people they didn't understand the brilliance of a Micheal Bay clone.

BVS is also a fighting movie, BATMAN V SUPERMAN. Regardless, I dont care about Injustice myself but their storytelling wipes the floor with that of Snyder too. Infact I loathe the characterizations in those games but they can and have sold those characterizations with surprisingly good storytelling beats. Snyder cant claim that even a bit.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Who wrote it is irrelevant. It was in line with how Superman and Batman react to killing. Superman had a similar reaction to Diana killing some demons in Action Comics 761, Superman's own book.


Yeah Superman's own book being the key words. His universe operates along those lines, just like the Wonder Woman annual recently had her killing which I enjoyed btw. But this Lord incident is what people keep bringing up again and again and that was written by a Wonder Woman writer who was writing her book then and he's writing her book now.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah Superman's own book being the key words. His universe operates along those lines, just like the Wonder Woman annual recently had her killing which I enjoyed btw. But this Lord incident is what people keep bringing up again and again and that was written by a Wonder Woman writer who was writing her book then and he's writing her book now.


Okay what's your point? What does Rucka being a Wonder Woman writer have to do with this? Again he only had Superman act in a way that there was precedent to.

----------


## FishyZombie

> Nobody cares about comic heroes killing in media. Just about every hero that's been adapted from DC and Marvel has killed someone. 
> 
> 
> Superman - Zod and Doomsday
> 
> Batman - Has killed in every live action adaptation since Batman 1989, except in Batman and Robin
> 
> Wonder Woman - Ares
> 
> ...


tbf Peter did not kill Eddie intentionally. In fact he went through great lengths to get him safely out of the symbiote, and tried to grab him when the idiot jumped in front of a granade. He did kill Electro though. Barry Allen killed Atom Smasher. Daredevil killed Nobu. I'm sure Palmer must have killed someone during Legends, they all do. So yeah, Luke Cage everybody! The only non-murdering Superhero apparently.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Okay what's your point? What does Rucka being a Wonder Woman writer have to do with this? Again he only had Superman act in a way that there was precedent to.


To gain sympathy for WW? its a tactic he employed frequently in his Batman when he needed to put an underling over Bruce.

----------


## Agent Z

> To gain sympathy for WW? its a tactic he employed frequently in his Batman when he needed to put an underling over Bruce.


So was Joe Kelly trying to gain sympathy for Diana when had Clark act a similar way?

And underlings? Are we talking about Batman or Darkseid? Cause last I checked the Batfamily weren't supposed to be Bruce's slaves

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Batman wants to kill Superman because Metropolis battle
> Batman wants to kill Superman because bad dream which is actually sneak peek to JL
> Batman wants to kill Superman because 1% theory
> Batman wants to kill Superman because 20 years in Gotham
> Batman wants to kill Superman because he wants to do something that leaves a legacy
> Batman wants to kill Superman because some random guy commits suicide bombing (to the rest of the world).
> Batman does not want to kill Superman because Martha.
> 
> What a stellar example of clarity and cohesion. Hush aka THOMAS Elliot must be the luckiest villain in DCEU, poor Arnold Wesker though.


I'm guessing you've never read an actual book, or watched anything other than popcorn fluff, because you talk like there can't be multiple layers to why someone does something. Everything you listed ties together. If you've read a lot of stories, watched a lot of different types of film, and have an understanding of the English language, then you should've understood how all those things tie together.

That, or you're purposely, diminishing his motivations, and mindset, because it's not the version of back you wanted to see, as clearly evident in all your posts since you responded to mine.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So was Joe Kelly trying to gain sympathy for Diana when had Clark act a similar way?
> 
> And underlings? Are we talking about Batman or Darkseid? Cause last I checked the Batfamily weren't supposed to be Bruce's slaves


That was Action right? Superman's book. If Superman showed up in a WW book and was put in his place I'd have no problem with it.

They're all underlings metaphorically, their survival is dependent  on his existence, often times even literally.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

I have a new theory for the DCEU movie slate after Justice League: 

Gotham City Sirens - July 2018 (Already has a direct attached and was rumored that WB wanted it to be released in 2018, nothing has since come out contradicting this) 

Aquaman - December 2018 (Confirmed by WB) 

The Batman - April 2019 (Already has a slated director, WB will likely want to speed this out once Matt Reeves is done with Planet of the Apes and 2019 is the earliest possible date to still do that and not unrealistically rush production) 

Man of Steel 2 - June 2019 (Currently no director slated but a lot have been in talks and it seems like from quotes and behavior that WB wants to speed out a sequel sometime soon. Would also be a good time to introduce The Rock's Black Adam character into the DCEU mythos) 

Suicide Squad 2 - November 2019 (Currently no director slated but Joel Kinnamen said they would be filming in 2018 and there are reports on WB scouting for a potential director. With those factors in mind a late 2019 release date doesn't sound unreasonable.) 

The Flash - April 2020 (Currently no director slated, but a few seem to be in talks for directing the movie. Considering how it was originally supposed to be released in March 2018 and has been pushed back so much getting it out in the next three years would probably be a priority. But the movie also appears to be getting completely rewritten from the ground up and with other more "important" projects taking up resources too 2020 might be the most realistic release date. Would also include Cyborg and would in many ways act as his solo movie too.) 

Batgirl - July 2020 (Has famous director Joss Whedon attached to it but suffers the same problem as The Flash, due to the character's smaller popularity is not considered as important as the other projects and will likely be pushed back because of it. Plus if Whedon really does become a sort of creative producer to the DCEU as a whole that could keep him busy for awhile before working on the movie.) 

Wonder Woman 2 - December 2020 (The first movie was one of the DCEU's most financially and critically successful movies. It will very likely get a sequel and three years after is a healthy wait for both audiences and production. No director is slated but since the first movie just came out that isn't too surprising, and being such a popular franchise now WB will likely prioritize making this movie come out as soon as they can.) 

The Justice League 2 - June 2021 (This movie is likely already in Zack Snyder's contract but considering how much the schedule has changed since they probably wrote that up the movie could very possibly be delayed almost two years from it's original date and three and a half years from the predecessor. But with all the other DC projects likely taking priority over this one a 2021 release date I feel as though is pretty realistic.) 

Green Lantern Corps - November 2021 (This movie has no director slated and only recently got writers attached to it. It's in the really early stages of development and despite how cool of heroes the Green Lanterns are I don't think their movie is a high priority for WB. Plus, after the 2011 failed film having over a decade of space between reboots might be a smart move. Hal or John will probably make an appearance in Justice League 2 before this though, maybe even sooner.) 

That's about as far as I guess. 2022 will probably get a Batman sequel, an Aquaman sequel, and a Shazam movie if Black Adam and that mythology is well-received. 2023 would probably finish off the Man of Steel trilogy, get a Flash sequel and a stand-alone Cyborg movie.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I'm guessing you've never read an actual book, or watched anything other than popcorn fluff, because you talk like there can't be multiple layers to why someone does something.
> 
> That, or you're purposely, diminishing his motivations, and mindset, because it's not the version of back you wanted to see, as clearly evident in all your posts since you responded to mine.


I certainly understood Final Crisis more than the guy who used it as an example of Batman killing and I dont need BvS/Snyder lovers to tell me about comprehension. Even Snyder supporters in Hollywood call him "visual filmmaker" aka he just makes things look good, HIS STUFF IS THE DUMB POP CORN FLUFF of Hollywood. Snyder's story telling is universally considered hot garbage.

Yeah, just imagine if Wonder Woman film depicted Diana with the Injustice characterization, I'm sure you would have dismissed those complaining with similarly disparaging remarks.

Get real, the basis of the conflict and the resolution of the conflict dont even fit. This is the basic backbone of the story, ignore Batman killing, ignore the dull characterization of Superman, this here is why the film got a drubbing.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Almost all of the action sequences are kept towards the end of the film, which I think was a mistake. Yeah, there are a lot of tiny details that get lost (maybe because people aren't interested in investing the time anyways...don't really fault them for it. I mean, we are comic book nerds and we are already interested in this stuff. I don't imagine audience will be). And it becomes even more difficult when they find the movie to be boring.
> 
> Overall, BvS has a solid premise which they could have easily extended to two whole movies. Well, in any case, they have a pretty solid base to work with...and built upon. JL will be much simpler, but a lot more action, which I think should interest the GA a lot more. Hopefully people will also learn to look past their preconceived notions about certain characters (thankfully - Barry, Arthur and Vic won't have much issues with that).


Yeah... it doesn't need to be Guardians of the Galaxy or Star Wars where there is an action sequence every third scene.  I think BaggieSaiyan mentioned that the movie  tried to be too subtle.  I agree... pair that up with less action to keep the audience invested and you lose them.   Flash, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman may be bigger draws to JL than Superman... due to the lukewarm reception of MOS and BvS.

----------


## Agent Z

> That was Action right? Superman's book. If Superman showed up in a WW book and was put in his place I'd have no problem with it.
> 
> They're all underlings metaphorically, their survival is dependent  on his existence, often times even literally.


So what's the deal with how Rucka used Batman? And btw neither Batman nor Superman were "put in their place" in Rucka's book. At worst it was merely a difference of opinion. Not to mention this wasn't even Rucka's idea. It was editorial who wanted a fall out among the Trinity

Them being supporting characters in his book does not mean they have to kiss his ass every time.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I certainly understood Final Crisis more than the guy who used it as an example of Batman killing and I dont need BvS/Snyder lovers to tell me about comprehension. Even Snyder supporters in Hollywood call him "visual filmmaker" aka he just makes things look good, HIS STUFF IS THE DUMB POP CORN FLUFF of Hollywood. Snyder's story telling is universally considered hot garbage.
> 
> Yeah, just imagine if Wonder Woman film depicted Diana with the Injustice characterization, I'm sure you would have dismissed those complaining with similarly disparaging remarks.
> 
> Get real, the basis of the conflict and the resolution of the conflict dont even fit. This is the basic backbone of the story, ignore Batman killing, ignore the dull characterization of Superman, this here is why the film got a drubbing.


It doesn't matter if there's comic examples of Batman killing, or not. There are multiple interpretations of Batman, and this is one of a Batman who has lost his way, which includes him no longer caring about the lost lives of criminals. There's a clear explanation of why he's become this way and how he redeems himself.

The five acts this revenge tragedy, while there are pacing issues, make sense. Most of the criticism comes from the direction of the characters, Doomsday, and the Justice League teases.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I have a new theory for the DCEU movie slate after Justice League: 
> 
> Gotham City Sirens - July 2018 (Already has a direct attached and was rumored that WB wanted it to be released in 2018, nothing has since come out contradicting this)


It will be interesting to see how much interest this movie generates amongst the general public.  How well "Bright" is received might influence public opinion.




> Aquaman - December 2018 (Confirmed by WB)


I have faith in Wan as a director.




> The Batman - April 2019 (Already has a slated director, WB will likely want to speed this out once Matt Reeves is done with Planet of the Apes and 2019 is the earliest possible date to still do that and not unrealistically rush production)


Matt Reeves is all that needs to be said.






> Suicide Squad 2 - November 2019 (Currently no director slated but Joel Kinnamen said they would be filming in 2018 and there are reports on WB scouting for a potential director. With those factors in mind a late 2019 release date doesn't sound unreasonable.)


I think they will need a spectacular director to get interest in this.




> The Flash - April 2020 (Currently no director slated, but a few seem to be in talks for directing the movie. Considering how it was originally supposed to be released in March 2018 and has been pushed back so much getting it out in the next three years would probably be a priority. But the movie also appears to be getting completely rewritten from the ground up and with other more "important" projects taking up resources too 2020 might be the most realistic release date. Would also include Cyborg and would in many ways act as his solo movie too.)


Famuyiwa's sudden departure really screwed this movie over.  However I like the directors who they have lined up much better anyways.  I think we will get a better movie.




> Batgirl - July 2020 (Has famous director Joss Whedon attached to it but suffers the same problem as The Flash, due to the character's smaller popularity is not considered as important as the other projects and will likely be pushed back because of it. Plus if Whedon really does become a sort of creative producer to the DCEU as a whole that could keep him busy for awhile before working on the movie.)


I think this will come out before 2020.  It shouldn't be as effect driven as these other movies.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So what's the deal with how Rucka used Batman? And btw neither Batman nor Superman were "put in their place" in Rucka's book. At worst it was merely a difference of opinion. Not to mention this wasn't even Rucka's idea. It was editorial who wanted a fall out among the Trinity
> 
> Them being supporting characters in his book does not mean they have to kiss his ass every time.


When did I say that they were put in their place in Rucka's WW?
if this was editorial non sense then do you keep digging it up? let it stay buried.

If the want to survive then they might as well.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah... it doesn't need to be Guardians of the Galaxy or Star Wars where there is an action sequence every third scene.  I think BaggieSaiyan mentioned that the movie  tried to be too subtle.  I agree... pair that up with less action to keep the audience invested and you lose them.   Flash, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman may be bigger draws to JL than Superman... due to the lukewarm reception of MOS and BvS.


I can agree with that. It was baffling, tho kinda refreshing, to see a CBM lack so much action until the last two acts (as the film was constructed around 5, rather than 3, acts). There should've been a ware house style action fight earlier in the movie, or at least show us Batman stealing from Lex Corp. 

Or, while the point of the movie was that there was little interaction between Bats and Supes, it wouldvery been nice to see a discussion of ideals between them.

----------


## Agent Z

> When did I say that they were put in their place in Rucka's WW?
> if this was editorial non sense then do you keep digging it up? let it stay buried.
> 
> If the want to survive then they might as well.


I'm trying to figure out what your issue with it seems to be. You're the one who right up the issue of it being a WW writer supposedly making Batman and Superman look bad. 

Guess just about any DC character is screwed then.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I can agree with that. It was baffling, tho kinda refreshing, to see a CBM lack so much action until the last two acts (as the film was constructed around 5, rather than 3, acts).


That could be refreshing... I just don't think that is what people wanted from THIS movie.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Gotham City Sirens - July 2018 (Already has a direct attached and was rumored that WB wanted it to be released in 2018, nothing has since come out contradicting this)


Didn't Deborah Snyder say Batgirl is the next female superhero film? Sirens is not technically a super_hero_ film, but if it were releasing before Batgirl, I don't see why Deb Snyder would omit mentioning it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Didn't Deborah Snyder say Batgirl is the next female superhero film? Sirens is not technically a super_hero_ film, but if it were releasing before Batgirl, I don't see why Deb Snyder would omit mentioning it.


Batgirl could be the simpler film to get started too... once they actually cast Batgirl.  I wonder if her age will influence the casting of Nightwing?  Random thought... what if the actor cast as Nightwing looks older than Ezra Miller.  How many people will lose their minds?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That could be refreshing... I just don't think that is what people wanted from THIS movie.


The thing I wonder tho is...what did people expect the movie to be? Of course NOT a revenge tragedy, but what did people honestly expect?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The thing I wonder tho is...what did people expect the movie to be? Of course NOT a revenge tragedy, but what did people honestly expect?


Don't underestimate the influence of the MCU and the Nolan trilogy on the general public.  Honestly for a comic movie I think people expect a certain amount of action... especially with the length of the BvS EC people would expect more action for the length of the film.  I do understand why there would be that expectation.  It all goes back to my pacing and execution argument.

----------


## Triple J

> Didn't Deborah Snyder say Batgirl is the next female superhero film? Sirens is not technically a super_hero_ film, but if it were releasing before Batgirl, I don't see why Deb Snyder would omit mentioning it.


Batgirl or WW2. Probably Batgirl.

Oh, yeah..don't forget JLD. WB seems to be really interested in bringing that project to life. Liman left due to scheduling conflicts, and they are currently looking for someone to work on the project (last I heard).

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Batgirl or WW2. Probably Batgirl.
> 
> Oh, yeah..don't forget JLD. WB seems to be really interested in bringing that project to life. Liman left due to scheduling conflicts, and they are currently looking for someone to work on the project (last I heard).


I wonder how Universal's "Dark Universe" will affect JLD?  Not to mention the lawsuit.  That could fast track things or delay them even further.  I think it will delay it.

----------


## Punisher007

http://batman-news.com/2017/06/13/ma...es-to-do-well/

So even Kevin Feige has praised WW's success now as well.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yes its misleading, he neither killed Darkseid nor did he even try to, his intention was to hurt him enough that he would vacate Turpin's body which he was using as a vessel, for all the claims that BVS fanboys make of people not getting that film maybe they should also go for basic comprehension skills themselves. Your entire body of evidence is tainted or Golden Age which has been rewritten.


So you interpret this panel-in which Batman explicitly states he's using a weapon that can kill a god-as Batman not trying to kill Darkseid...




> Monster Men, The Man Who Laughs, Mad Monk are modern day rewrites of Golden Age stories, same goes for the various origin stories of the different villains over the years. Those stories have all been rewritten to fit a modern context. Tom King's Batman for example acknowledged the Golden Age meeting between Batman and Catwoman, his Batman is not a killer.


Not sure how the Golden Age being "rewritten" means it was erased from _actual_ history. Nor how the rest of the evidence is "tainted".




> TDKR made it abundantly clear that non lethal methods were being used, they beat you over the head with it. You never saw any actual deaths, case closed. One scene in particular which master story teller Zack interpreted as Batman killing someone infact outright showed the bad guy surviving, referring to the mutant shooting scene.


That scene is not clear at all. It's discolored and there's a splatter behind the mutant. Further, Batman explicitly laughs at the mutants killing themselves as they bounce rockets off of his hull. And again you ignore Batman indirectly causing a grenade to blow up other mutants, in the animated movie that YOU said I should use as a source. He's clearly indifferent to the indirect deaths of criminals. 




> TDKSA was as panned as BVS, I guess now you'll pass off Kevin Smith's stories as seminal right? there was ambiguity in the Beast storyline which was later retconned in to not being ambiguous.


It's still an important chapter. It doesn't matter if the KGBeast point was retconned, there is no rule that says a director can't draw from older sources and interpretations or even create his own. It's a pathetic argument.




> I gave you a list of half a dozen incoherent babblings on Bruce's part.


Babbling something incoherently doesn't mean the thing you're trying to describe was incoherent. The plot points were all there, obvious to anyone who bothered to pay attention. It makes no sense to list plot points and then say "see? look how many of them there are, that's why they make no sense, by virtue of their existence."




> You or whoever compiled them together, if you taint evidence then that evidence is inadmissible. Maybe that guy should go back and read TDKR and Final Crisis all over again instead of telling people they didn't understand the brilliance of a Micheal Bay clone.


What the hell do you mean by "tainted"? You're definitely not using it in any way that would be used in a courtroom so please be clear. None of the images are doctored. Nothing about it is "tainted". Batman has killed or at the worst indirectly caused the deaths of criminals in combat in various interpretations. Just deal with it instead of jumping through hoops trying to act like it's a golden rule that he can't ever kill.




> BVS is also a fighting movie, BATMAN V SUPERMAN. Regardless, I dont care about Injustice myself but their storytelling wipes the floor with that of Snyder too. Infact I loathe the characterizations in those games but they can and have sold those characterizations with surprisingly good storytelling beats. Snyder cant claim that even a bit.


Yeah comparing cut scenes in a fighting game is definitely appropriate here. Jesus.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Justice League reshoots have apparently begun in London.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So you interpret this panel-in which Batman explicitly states he's using a weapon that can kill a god-as Batman not trying to kill Darkseid...
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how the Golden Age being "rewritten" means it was erased from _actual_ history. Nor how the rest of the evidence is "tainted".
> 
> 
> 
> That scene is not clear at all. It's discolored and there's a splatter behind the mutant. Further, Batman explicitly laughs at the mutants killing themselves as they bounce rockets off of his hull. And again you ignore Batman indirectly causing a grenade to blow up other mutants, in the animated movie that YOU said I should use as a source. He's clearly indifferent to the indirect deaths of criminals. 
> ...


Lol, the guy you're "debating" is just a Batman fan that refuses any version that goes against his ideal.

Using Injustice 2, a game that has Batman beat up Swamp Thing with H2H, and has a scene of Brainiac holding off both Batman, and Superman, in the same fight...as if it's some kind of ridiculous 90s movie, as proof he's right? It's crazy the lengths he's going to discredit an interpretation of a character who's had multiple takes on him.

Also the storytelling in Injustice 2 is trash, just as the first one was. Characters are claimed to be major pieces, aND are forgotten. Batman beats up Black Adam...how? Literally because he's Batman, and nothing else. Story elements, like Hal and his rage, are brought up for no reason, and then dropped almost immediately. Dr Fate suddenly thinks Brainiac is order, when he's purposely creating chaos to make it easier to capture Superman. Why does Brainiac need Superman when he owns Kandor, and every other Kryptonian offshoot race?

Him using that trash as an arguing point of storytelling invalidates his side entirely.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> It will be interesting to see how much interest this movie generates amongst the general public.  How well "Bright" is received might influence public opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> I have faith in Wan as a director.
> 
> 
> 
> Matt Reeves is all that needs to be said.
> ...


I feel your hype! But I'm just not really sure how Batgirl coming out before 2020. It literally just got out of the pitch stages and it seems like they'll want to put stuff like The Flash, Batman, etc first. I'm not gonna lie I would in a lot of ways kind of prefer that. Batman and The Flash are some of the most iconic heroes in DC Comics and really should be treated as a priority.

----------


## Pinsir

> Yes its misleading, he neither killed Darkseid nor did he even try to, his intention was to hurt him enough that he would vacate Turpin's body which he was using as a vessel, for all the claims that BVS fanboys make of people not getting that film maybe they should also go for basic comprehension skills themselves. Your entire body of evidence is tainted or *Golden Age which has been rewritten*.


It always amuses me to the ends certain fans will undergo to defend their interpretation of the character, that you have to discount the creators of the character in order to justify 'your' personal vision.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> It always amuses me to the ends certain fans will undergo to defend their interpretation of the character, that you have to discount the creators of the character in order to justify 'your' personal vision.


It amuses me when people ignore facts, Monster Men and Mad Monk by Wagner are more acclaimed than the originals they were based on.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It amuses me when people ignore facts, Monster Men and Mad Monk by Wagner are more acclaimed than the originals they were based on.


Which was never a point of argument. At all.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So you interpret this panel-in which Batman explicitly states he's using a weapon that can kill a god-as Batman not trying to kill Darkseid...


Did Batman shoot him in the head? or the heart? even when he well could have, NO. This IS NOT DARKSEID'S BODY, this is the body of Dan Turpin. Radion is harmless to Turpin but toxic to Darkseid, shooting Darkseid dead would have ALSO KILLED TURPIN, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? THAT'S WHY BATMAN SHOT HIM IN THE SHOULDER, SO THAT TURPIN WOULD LIVE AND DARKSEID WOULD BE TOO WEAK TO CONTINUE USING HIS BODY FROM THE POISONING. Please go actually read the goddamn story.





> Not sure how the Golden Age being "rewritten" means it was erased from _actual_ history. Nor how the rest of the evidence is "tainted".


 It means that writers rewrote those stories so that they would be more acceptable, this isn't hard to grasp.




> That scene is not clear at all. It's discolored and there's a splatter behind the mutant. Further, Batman explicitly laughs at the mutants killing themselves as they bounce rockets off of his hull. And again you ignore Batman indirectly causing a grenade to blow up other mutants, in the animated movie that YOU said I should use as a source. He's clearly indifferent to the indirect deaths of criminals.


It was abundantly clear in the comic, that animated movie unlike Zack Snyder garbage actually understood the source material. They didn't die, you can reach all you want but watch that entire scene with mutant leader mocking Batman's unwillingness to kill and the mention of the rubber bullets. The scene not so subtly hammered the idea that no one was dying. Now you can use a random explosion to cover Snyder's posterior all you want but the INTENT of the characterization doesn't change.




> It's still an important chapter. It doesn't matter if the KGBeast point was retconned, there is no rule that says a director can't draw from older sources and interpretations or even create his own. It's a pathetic argument.


Yes it does matter, the original was ambiguous and later retconned. Infact even the word retcon is super flous, there was never any evidence of Beast dying, the "retcon" was only an additive story element.
What older source material did Snyder draw from? he went with TDKR and DOS, that's all he read. You want Golden Age Batman, try Bruce Timm's Strange Days short, there's some episodes in Brave and the Bold with him too. Again all you do is make wild excuses for Snyder.




> Babbling something incoherently doesn't mean the thing you're trying to describe was incoherent. The plot points were all there, obvious to anyone who bothered to pay attention. It makes no sense to list plot points and then say "see? look how many of them there are, that's why they make no sense, by virtue of their existence."


Maybe you should pay attention to what happened in FC, even a 2 year old can understand a Snyder story. You were provided plenty of reasons, your continual insistence on "you didn't bother to pay attention" is what is truly pathetic, we understood this Chris Nolan movie just fine...oops.




> What the hell do you mean by "tainted"? You're definitely not using it in any way that would be used in a courtroom so please be clear. None of the images are doctored. Nothing about it is "tainted". Batman has killed or at the worst indirectly caused the deaths of criminals in combat in various interpretations. Just deal with it instead of jumping through hoops trying to act like it's a golden rule that he can't ever kill.


These images are from stories that were rewritten to fit with the times or deliberately lack context (case in point FC and TDKR), they're worthless to any sensible person.



> Yeah comparing cut scenes in a fighting game is definitely appropriate here. Jesus.


As if Snyder's films are little more than video game cut scenes.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Which was never a point of argument. At all.


Yes it was, DC saw fit to have those stories rewritten altogether.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Did Batman shoot him in the head? or the heart? even when he well could have, NO. This IS NOT DARKSEID'S BODY, this is the body of Dan Turpin. Radion is harmless to Turpin but toxic to Darkseid, shooting Darkseid dead would have ALSO KILLED TURPIN, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? THAT'S WHY BATMAN SHOT HIM IN THE SHOULDER, SO THAT TURPIN WOULD LIVE AND DARKSEID WOULD BE TOO WEAK TO CONTINUE USING HIS BODY FROM THE POISONING. Please go actually read the goddamn story.


Not wanting to kill Turpin isn't the same thing as not trying to kill Darkseid. He explicitly says its toxic to his kind and that it killed Orion. 

Why don't you point me to the part in the book where his intentions are explicitly stated as you've articulated them? Even though they don't exist.




> It means that writers rewrote those stories so that they would be more acceptable, this isn't hard to grasp.


It's also not really relevant to whether it's a valid adaptation of an existing interpretation. You don't like it. That's a different argument to "the character can't be portrayed that way".




> It was abundantly clear in the comic


For the reasons I stated, which you did not contradict in any detail, it is absolutely not abundantly clear. Many fans have and do interpret that scene as Batman having shot the mutant through the torso, if not killed him.





> that animated movie unlike Zack Snyder garbage actually understood the source material. They didn't die, you can reach all you want but watch that entire scene with mutant leader mocking Batman's unwillingness to kill and the mention of the rubber bullets. The scene not so subtly hammered the idea that no one was dying. Now you can use a random explosion to cover Snyder's posterior all you want but the INTENT of the characterization doesn't change.


You're telling me the mutants who dropped a grenade after Batman hit them with rubber bullets didn't die?

How about Batman being totally indifferent to Mutants dying from rocket fire bouncing off of the tank's hull? I like how you ignore that. 

I'm not arguing Batman is a cold blooded killer in these works (he's not in the film either); but that he's more liberal with violence and indirectly causes the death of criminals in the heat of combat. As Snyder said, manslaughter, not murder. 




> Yes it does matter, the original was ambiguous and later retconned. Infact even the word retcon is super flous, there was never any evidence of Beast dying, the "retcon" was only an additive story element.


Retcons do not invalidate the existence of a story or plot point. 




> What older source material did Snyder draw from? he went with TDKR and DOS, that's all he read. You want Golden Age Batman, try Bruce Timm's Strange Days short, there's some episodes in Brave and the Bold with him too. Again all you do is make wild excuses for Snyder.


He actually drew from a ton of source material. 



In any case, Batman has killed in comics, Snyder's Batman kills, you don't like it, oh well.




> Maybe you should pay attention to what happened in FC, even a 2 year old can understand a Snyder story. You were provided plenty of reasons, your continual insistence on "you didn't bother to pay attention" is what is truly pathetic, we understood this Chris Nolan movie just fine...oops.


Pretty sure a 2 year old wouldn't be able to jump through hoops and totally superimpose a preferred character intention onto a character that's totally absent from the page for the purposes of preserving a rule that only exists in their mind. 




> These images are from stories that were rewritten to fit with the times or deliberately lack context (case in point FC and TDKR), they're worthless to any sensible person.


It's ludicrous to suggest that rewritten or retconned stories aren't a valid part of a character's history. It's only worthless to someone hellbent on enforcing a rule and characterization in their own mind and can't tolerate any deviations from it (you). 





> As if Snyder's films are little more than video game cut scenes.


I think you know how dumb of an argument this is, you simply must, given the nature of the dialogue and medium. It's not comparable to cut scenes literally designed to make over 20 characters fight in sequence, stop making yourself look stupid.




> Yes it was, DC saw fit to have those stories rewritten altogether.


DC saw it fit to retcon, erase, and rewrite most of DC's history at different points in time. It doesn't invalidate it or erase the history. You just don't like it. Just say that, instead of pretending Snyder committed some cardinal sin with no foundation in the character's history.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Latest JUSTICE LEAGUE Reshoot Set Photos Take Us To Gotham City*




> Batman Notes has shared some photos of both a Gotham City cab and the gargoyle-like statue that the Dark Knight could be seen standing on in a trailer teaser released for the movie back in March.
> 
> Apparently, Ben Affleck is in England ready to shoot additional scenes with Joss Whedon for the reshoots and it looks like that could mean we'll get some extra Batman in the anticipated release. 
> 
> Of course, reshoots take place for a variety of reasons and all the cast will no doubt be involved at some point, so we'll just have to wait and see. The Justice League reshoots are expected to take place for the next couple of months, but the movie is still on track to be released this coming November.

----------


## ekrolo2

Christ, that's supposed to go in front of a police station?! Gotham really is full of psychos, in and out of costumes.

----------


## AcesX1X

yeah wtf is this??

----------


## LordTrump

> *Latest JUSTICE LEAGUE Reshoot Set Photos Take Us To Gotham City*


Knightmare Sequence Police Department

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> yeah wtf is this??

----------


## Agent Z

Ya know at this point, I feel Bruce could set off a nuke in downtown Gotham and fans will insist the very obvious corpses only got a few bruises and are taking a nap

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> Christ, that's supposed to go in front of a police station?! Gotham really is full of psychos, in and out of costumes.


Joss Whedon is not really the master of subtlety.

----------


## Starchild

After coming from Alamo Drafthouse to see WW this afternoon. I don't think I can take the Snyder hatred....oh excuse me. The Snyder 'criticism' seriously anymore. I loved it as much as i loved MOS and BvS. I do feel like Doctor Poison can come back. What's stopping her from creating a chemical that increases her lifespan? 

For the sequel. Cheetah and Donna are a must.

PS: Someone should start a DCEU Appreciation Thread. This thread is becoming a bit cancerous.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*'Justice League': Danny Elfman to Compose Score (Exclusive):* http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...-score-1013319

----------


## Serpico Jones

Rob Liefeld says on twitter that he's heard JL is going to be "an entirely new movie" under Whedon's direction, fwiw.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

With JXL leaving that's a great coup. Well happy with that. Wasn't a fan of JXL taking full reigns anyway. 

Lol @ Rob Liefield trying to stay relevant! Sigh guess the "I heard from a source of a source" crap has begun not surprising.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> *'Justice League': Danny Elfman to Compose Score (Exclusive):* http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...-score-1013319


After these latest news, I think it's time we stop denying that Warner Bros is taking this movie from Zack's hands and diverting from his vision. Joss Whedon is directing new scenes that he wrote, will be responsible for the final cut and brought a previous collaborator to do a new score. There's no way you can call this a "Zack Snyder's movie" anymore. I would not be surprised if when "Justice League" is released in November, they give full credit to Whedon and omit Snyder's name completely.

----------


## DragonPiece

> After coming from Alamo Drafthouse to see WW this afternoon. I don't think I can take the Snyder hatred....oh excuse me. The Snyder 'criticism' seriously anymore. I loved it as much as i loved MOS and BvS. I do feel like Doctor Poison can come back. What's stopping her from creating a chemical that increases her lifespan? 
> 
> For the sequel. Cheetah and Donna are a must.
> 
> PS: Someone should start a DCEU Appreciation Thread. This thread is becoming a bit cancerous.


Wonder Woman was the start of the Geoff John era. I believe Patty said Snyder only had a hand in picking the setting and casting Gal. Besides that, Geoff helped her mostly with the script. I'm not trying to take away from Snyder's contributions, but the facts are the films he were more involved with got the reception they got and this one didn't. (I say this as someone who really liked the BVS extended edition by the way. )

----------


## Beantownbrown

Elfman is the guy that did this? Ok, I ain't mad at the change.

----------


## Triple J

> After these latest news, I think it's time we stop denying that Warner Bros is taking this movie from Zack's hands and diverting from his vision. Joss Whedon is directing new scenes that he wrote, will be responsible for the final cut and brought a previous collaborator to do a new score. There's no way you can call this a "Zack Snyder's movie" anymore. I would not be surprised if when "Justice League" is released in November, they give full credit to Whedon and omit Snyder's name completely.


Oh boy...I was hoping WB would stick with Zack. But, with the latest news, I can't help but feel worried about this film. If it ends up like one of those generic Marvel movies (and yes, many of them are just generic, even though the same characters have gone through amazing storylines in comics; Disney doesn't have the balls to do anything that might not attract the family audience), I will be done with JL.

Still looking forward to Wan's AM  :Big Grin: 

Here's hoping Elfman is just coming in to add to the reshoots, and Whedon isn't making any extensive changes to the film.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Until we get a second trailer we don't know anything Elfman replacing JXL doesn't mean anything yet. So far it's a bunch of "I heard this I heard that I heard this".

----------


## DragonPiece

> Until we get a second trailer we don't know anything Elfman replacing JXL doesn't mean anything yet. So far it's a bunch of "I heard this I heard that I heard this".


About that.. https://twitter.com/Junkie_XL/status/875159566689775616

Going to be a completely new score.

----------


## The Kid

Damn. All lends credence to the idea that there are major reshoots going on. I wonder how the final product will differ from what was initially conceptualized

I wonder if they ultimately delay the film...

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Wonder Woman was the start of the Geoff John era. I believe Patty said Snyder only had a hand in picking the setting and casting Gal. Besides that, Geoff helped her mostly with the script. I'm not trying to take away from Snyder's contributions, but the facts are the films he were more involved with got the reception they got and this one didn't. (I say this as someone who really liked the BVS extended edition by the way. )


I believe you are correct.  




> After these latest news, I think it's time we stop denying that Warner Bros is taking this movie from Zack's hands and diverting from his vision. Joss Whedon is directing new scenes that he wrote, will be responsible for the final cut and brought a previous collaborator to do a new score. There's no way you can call this a "Zack Snyder's movie" anymore. I would not be surprised if when "Justice League" is released in November, they give full credit to Whedon and omit Snyder's name completely.


I still don't think the reshoots can viewed as THAT extensive.  Reshoots often take longer than the initials shoots because they know that they can't go back.  The reshoots are longer than usual for sure... I still doubt that they can change that much of the film in that amount of time.  I do think that they are trying to fix something that Johns didn't like.  They aren't going to omit Snyder's name... no way.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Damn. All lends credence to the idea that there are major reshoots going on. I wonder how the final product will differ from what was initially conceptualized
> 
> I wonder if they ultimately delay the film...


This is now turning into Whedon's film after all. 

Oh, boy. I'm worried now. 

I do not want my Justice League film to be a mess. Dear God, please, no.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> About that.. https://twitter.com/Junkie_XL/status/875159566689775616
> 
> Going to be a completely new score.


The Elfman thing was confirmed but I was moreso talking about the  I heard JL is gonna be completely different people are spouting on Twitter. 

JXL isn't exactly a great composer his Batman "theme", was a bunch of loud dreams banging. A creative change welcomed and one of the benefits of having Whedon do clean up and finish the film.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This is now turning into Whedon's film after all. 
> 
> Oh, boy. I'm worried now. 
> 
> I do not want my Justice League film to be a mess. Dear God, please, no.


No one wants that.  I'm not going to assume that it is.  My thinking is that maybe Snyder tried to make a lighter film, but maybe it just wasn't his forte.  It isn't like they can change the look/style of the film in three months.  It isn't enough time... the style and tone still have to match the other scenes that they are keeping.  Hell maybe they are adding some scenes in the day because apparently it is always slightly cloudy in the Snyderverse.   I do still think that if JL is well received that Whedon will more credit than he deserves.

----------


## DragonPiece

> No one wants that.  I'm not going to assume that it is.  My thinking is that maybe Snyder tried to make a lighter film, but maybe it just wasn't his forte.  It isn't like they can change the look/style of the film in three months.  It isn't enough time... the style and tone still have to match the other scenes that they are keeping.  Hell maybe they are adding some scenes in the day because apparently it is always slightly cloudy in the Snyderverse.   I do still think that if JL is well received that Whedon will more credit than he deserves.


Yeah, I'm guessing film was already gonna be changed to be more optimistic with these reshoots, but with the tragedy that fell upon the Snyders, he just decided to let Whedon have full control instead of trying to fit WB's plans.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Wonder Woman was the start of the Geoff John era. I believe Patty said Snyder only had a hand in picking the setting and casting Gal. Besides that, Geoff helped her mostly with the script. I'm not trying to take away from Snyder's contributions, but the facts are the films he were more involved with got the reception they got and this one didn't. (I say this as someone who really liked the BVS extended edition by the way. )


Geoff has been a producer on all the DC films since GL though. Also, WW was being shot at the same time as JL. We saw with BvS and SS, that it was the suits at WB that highjacked the films at the last minute. WW seems to be the only film they didn't meddle with. Justice League though, there is a lot of meddling. Mostly due to the Snyders departing for personal reasons.

----------


## Rogue Star

> After these latest news, I think it's time we stop denying that Warner Bros is taking this movie from Zack's hands and diverting from his vision. Joss Whedon is directing new scenes that he wrote, will be responsible for the final cut and brought a previous collaborator to do a new score. There's no way you can call this a "Zack Snyder's movie" anymore. I would not be surprised if when "Justice League" is released in November, they give full credit to Whedon and omit Snyder's name completely.


But why Whedon??? His Avengers movies aren't even that good!

----------


## Rogue Star

> About that.. https://twitter.com/Junkie_XL/status/875159566689775616
> 
> Going to be a completely new score.


Oh man, I loved the BvS soundtrack. I can't remember Age of Ultron's music for crap.

----------


## Steven Kaye

> But why Whedon??? His Avengers movies aren't even that good!


I agree, but they made $2.5 billion.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Geoff has been a producer on all the DC films since GL though. Also, WW was being shot at the same time as JL. We saw with BvS and SS, that it was the suits at WB that highjacked the films at the last minute. WW seems to be the only film they didn't meddle with. Justice League though, there is a lot of meddling. Mostly due to the Snyders departing for personal reasons.


Do you think D'Esposito really has active involvement in any of the Marvel movies?  Johns role has changed in the DCEU starting with WW and JL.  His involvement in GL was almost non-existent... he was basically a producer in title much like D'Esposito.   MOS, BvS, and SS are Snyderverse movies with the Snyders being the driving force.  WW was the first movie where Johns actually helped with  story and was actively involved.  He now has active ties to all the DC movies being made and not just in title.  He was much more involved with JL than with BvS... that is why JL's shooting was not delayed after BvS's reception.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Geoff has been a producer on all the DC films since GL though. Also, WW was being shot at the same time as JL. We saw with BvS and SS, that it was the suits at WB that highjacked the films at the last minute. WW seems to be the only film they didn't meddle with. Justice League though, there is a lot of meddling. Mostly due to the Snyders departing for personal reasons.


Johns was given a lot more creative control for WW and JL after BvS's critical reception. There's no need to panic. I think with WW getting all these accolades, the changes and reshoots are probably just to make it closer in tone to that movie than to BvS and MoS. Johns has said that the future of the DCEU will be defined by hope and optimism.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Oh man, I loved the BvS soundtrack. I can't remember Age of Ultron's music for crap.


Elfman just composed additional music for Ultron. _Batman '89_ and the original _Spider-Man_ are better examples of his scores for epic superhero movies.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Elfman just composed additional music for Ultron. _Batman '89_ and the original _Spider-Man_ are better examples of his scores for epic superhero movies.


Yeah Brian Tyler was the principal composer on AoU. 

& BvS soundtrack was great thanks to Zimmer. JXL thought just banging drums was a good Batman theme.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Do you think D'Esposito really has active involvement in any of the Marvel movies?  Johns role has changed in the DCEU starting with WW and JL.  His involvement in GL was almost non-existent... he was basically a producer in title much like D'Esposito.   MOS, BvS, and SS are Snyderverse movies with the Snyders being the driving force.  WW was the first movie where Johns actually helped with  story and was actively involved.  He now has active ties to all the DC movies being made and not just in title.  He was much more involved with JL than with BvS... that is why JL's shooting was not delayed after BvS's reception.


The thing is that BvSBvS was supposed to be that dark, and JL was always planned to be lighter and optimistic, via pre-BvS interviews. You also leave out that the execs screwed over both SS and BvS, by undermining their directors.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Whatever happens to the JL film, I doubt I won't like it. It just may mean the difference between it getting a lot of money and getting a *lot* of money.  :Smile:

----------


## darkseidpwns

@Bogotazo

In the end what difference does it all make? Snyder is being pushed out as we speak, his vision is going down the gutter where it belongs. So I'm getting what I want from the upcoming films anyway.

Just watch as JL gets good reviews and credit goes to Joss, LOL.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Do you think D'Esposito really has active involvement in any of the Marvel movies?  Johns role has changed in the DCEU starting with WW and JL.  His involvement in GL was almost non-existent... he was basically a producer in title much like D'Esposito.   MOS, BvS, and SS are Snyderverse movies with the Snyders being the driving force.  WW was the first movie where Johns actually helped with  story and was actively involved.  He now has active ties to all the DC movies being made and not just in title.  He was much more involved with JL than with BvS... that is why JL's shooting was not delayed after BvS's reception.


Johns had a writing credit on GL, you know. Johns' name can also be seen at the begininnig of most of the DC films. Alongside other producers.


Also, take a lot at works Johns has scribed and see if they are out of step with the picture Snyder and Nolan began painting for their movies.

Darkseid War
Forever Evil
Trinity War
The First Lantern arc
Flashpoint
New Krypton
Infinite Crisis
Blackest Night
Sinstro Corps War
Infinite Crisis
Throne of Atlantis
The retcon of Nora Allen murdered by Reverse Flash.

It's not all feel good, hope and optimisim in Johns' works. A lot of murder and mayhem, in-your-face action and imagery, and the heroes making dramatic last stands and pulling out a win at the last minute.

Johns rides shotgun with the gritty and dark aspect of comics and films. However, when the wind starting blowing against the dark trend (New 52, BvS), all of a sudden he's a champion of "Rebirths" and a return to the light side of things for DC media. 


Not trying to tear the man down, but at the same time, I'm not going to build the man up as some champion of virture. What concerns me more, is that BvS and SS were meddled with by the suits at WB before their release. Now JL is being meddled with by the suits after the Snyders steeped away to deal with a family tragedy. If this doesn't turn out the way we all hope, who are we going to blame this time?

----------


## Thomas Crown

It's getting clearer to me what REALLY happened. Warner Bros and Geoff Johns wanted to get rid of Zack Snyder, mainly because Zack's vision didn't fit in Johns' idea of "hope, optimism and FUN", but they knew it would be a PR nightmare if they just outright fired Zack. Then, Zack suffered a tragedy in his family and WB saw the perfect opportunity. They made Zack step down, bought his silence with a "first-look deal" (and maybe because Zack knew he could never work on Hollywood again if he opened his mouth) and Johns brought Joss Whedon in to "fix" the movie. Then they came up with that PR talk about "the directing is minimal, Joss will follow Zack's vision", while overhauling the entire movie.

And before someone says something like "Warner Bros would not do that", don't underestimate how much studio executives can be scumbags.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It's getting clearer to me what REALLY happened. Warner Bros and Geoff Johns wanted to get rid of Zack Snyder, mainly because Zack's vision didn't fit in Johns' idea of "hope, optimism and FUN". But they knew it would be a PR nightmare if they just outright fired Zack. Then, Zack suffered a tragedy in his family and WB saw the perfect opportunity. They made Zack step down, bought his silence with a "first-look deal" (and maybe because Zack knew he could never work on Hollywood again if he opened his mouth) and Johns brought Joss Whedon in to "fix" the movie. Then they came up with that PR talk about "the directing is minimal, Joss will follow Zack's vision", while overhauling the entire movie.
> 
> And before someone says something like "Warner Bros would not do that", don't underestimate how much studio executives can be scumbags.


If they WANTED to get rid if the already would have. This conspiracy theory is silly why WB go to such elaborate stages when they could have fired Snyder before he shot the film? This whole conspiracy theory is stupid. 

These are facts. Snyder stepped down but had already commissioned Joss to write additional photography, Joss will finish the film and shoot the additional photography. Joss replaced JXL and hired Elfman. These are the facts plain and simple everything else is baseless rumours.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Johns had a writing credit on GL, you know. Johns' name can also be seen at the begininnig of most of the DC films. Alongside other producers.


Yeah... I know and I addressed that in my post.  D'Esposito is credited as a producer on all Marvel movies.  He doesn't do anything on those individual movies.  Johns role has changed starting with JL and WW.




> If they WANTED to get rid if the already would have. This conspiracy theory is silly why WB go to such elaborate stages when they could have fired Snyder before he shot the film? This whole conspiracy theory is stupid. 
> 
> These are facts. Snyder stepped down but had already commissioned Joss to write additional photography, Joss will finish the film and shoot the additional photography. Joss replaced JXL and hired Elfman. These are the facts plain and simple everything else is baseless rumours.



Yeah... I try to stay away from conspiracy theories as much as possible.  It is too easy to find them everywhere

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The thing is that BvSBvS was supposed to be that dark, and JL was always planned to be lighter and optimistic, via pre-BvS interviews. You also leave out that the execs screwed over both SS and BvS, by undermining their directors.


We need to stop comparing BvS and SS as the same situation.  BvS EC was a better version but Snyder should have known that WB might not  want a movie that long because it would limit the number of shows per day.  That is on him.  In hindsight SS being written so haphazardly was probably destined to a mess from the start.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Also, take a lot at works Johns has scribed and see if they are out of step with the picture Snyder and Nolan began painting for their movies.
> 
> Darkseid War
> Forever Evil
> Trinity War
> The First Lantern arc
> Flashpoint
> New Krypton
> Infinite Crisis
> ...


Johns is an avowed fan of Silver Age DC. A more hopeful, optimistic, and fun-oriented version of the DC Universe there has never been.

Just because he wrote dark stories back when the market indicated that that's what sells in no way means that dark stories were ever something he preferred writing. I remind you, he was talking about a "DC Rebirth" all the way back around the time of Brightest Day, just before Flashpoint ruined everything. He wrote dark stories back when they seemed to be popular. Once presented with a chance to take DC's comics and films in a lighter, more positive direction, he appeared to take it in both hands and run with it.

You can easily argue that the DC stories and movies we're getting now is Geoff Johns finally getting to write and oversee the kind of stories that he's always wanted to do, but couldn't because of market demands and the fact that he wasn't in a position of power for a good chunk of that time period and had to do what his superiors said just like everyone else. 




> Not trying to tear the man down, but at the same time, I'm not going to build the man up as some champion of virture. What concerns me more, is that BvS and SS were meddled with by the suits at WB before their release. Now JL is being meddled with by the suits after the Snyders steeped away to deal with a family tragedy. If this doesn't turn out the way we all hope, who are we going to blame this time?


Well, first, I think it's safe to say that WB learned from the mistakes they made with BvS and SS. The fact that they didn't repeat those mistakes with Wonder Woman seems to be pretty clear proof of that. 

This time? Assuming it's even true that the movie is going to be radically altered? I think one can safely assume that the studio interference will come in the form of changing Justice League to more closely align with their most successful film to date. 

So if the movie is a mess by the time it comes out, we'll have to analyze what seems wrong about it in order to decide to whom we assign blame. Was the movie remade to basically look like The Avengers all over again? Annoying quips amid the rubble of wrecked cities and all? Then that sounds like a "Blame Whedon" situation. One of the things that worries me about Whedon taking over is the simple fact that the guy has openly admitted he actually doesn't know DC or DC characters very well, as he was strictly a "Marvel Boy" as a kid. This is evidenced by the bizarre choices he made in his Wonder Woman script, if you've ever read it. So, another sign that Whedon could be to blame is if the Justice League movie features Justice Leaguers acting in bizarre ways that don't seem to align with their characters.

Another thing that disturbs me occasionally about Whedon is the fact that he actually has a bit of a habit of portraying very dark things as "not that bad" simply because it was done by a traditionally "funny fan-favorite character" or simply because the story doesn't treat this dark thing with the gravitas that it probably should. The Avengers joking about shwarma while innocent people were likely dying horrible deaths mere feet from where they were standing is one example. 

An older example of this behavior? One of the most popular Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes of all time: Once More With Feeling. I re-watched it recently, and it finally dawned on me: Xander Harris, in that episode openly admitted to summoning the demon Sweet in order to find out whether he and Anya would be okay once they got married. Stop and think about that for a minute. Xander Harris: the lovable, dorky everyman of the Scooby Gang just admitted to summoning a demon that horribly murdered several people throughout the course of the episode for no reason other than to calm his pre-wedding jitters. He, in effect, confessed to Magical Manslaughter and the whole scene is just cheesed off as "LOL! Silly Xander! What are we going to do with you?" And the entire incident is NEVER referenced again. 

So if we get something like that? Yeah, probably Whedon's fault since he has a bit of a habit for doing stuff like that. 

If the movie appears to be flooded with unnecessary scenes that seem like glorified commercials for upcoming DCEU movies? That's almost certainly a "Blame WB" kind of situation. They did it in BvS. Cutting the movie may not have been the worst thing ever if they had only cut the right scenes, instead of a bunch of scenes that portrayed Superman in a better light and gave him and Lois Lane some great character development. If Batman is radically re-designed to more closely resemble Captain America or something? That one might be a Whedon/WB double condemnation. 

This is all assuming, of course, that A) these "massive reshoots" really ARE all about making the JL movie into a completely different movie, B) that these reshoots will, in fact, make the movie into a "mess" or even a less enjoyable movie for us, and C) that Snyder's own vision for the movie was going to be very different from what we'll be getting in November. 




> And before someone says something like "Warner Bros would not do that", don't underestimate how much studio executives can be scumbags.


Even if you're correct, does that really make the executives "scumbags?" It may not be the nicest thing to do to Snyder, but WB is a business. They're investing a huge amount of money in this movie and they need to see returns on that investment. Right now, evidence seems to be mounting that Snyder's vision for the DCEU simply isn't connecting with the audience with which they're trying to connect. One of the most consistent praises for Wonder Woman is how it in no way resembles a Snyder movie. As a studio executive, tasked with the trying to make DCEU movies into a profitable product for your company, do you simply ignore all of that in the name of being good to one man? Is one man's contentment worth gambling hundreds of millions of dollars?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> We need to stop comparing BvS and SS as the same situation.  BvS EC was a better version but Snyder should have known that WB might not  want a movie that long because it would limit the number of shows per day.  That is on him.  In hindsight SS being written so haphazardly was probably destined to a mess from the start.


Nope. WB told Snyder that he could make a three-hour movie. They reneged on that promise at practically the eleventh hour. And I remain convinced that they picked what scenes got cut as well. They kept the completely superfluous Knightmare Sequence but didn't keep the scene that proves beyond any doubt that Superman didn't just fly away from the Capital Building bombing without even trying to help anyone? That is movie studio thinking right there. Keep the scene that basically advertises "Hey, people! We're making more movies after this one! Go see them too!" but throw away scenes that would've made the movie better? Classic studio move. 

WB is to blame for BvS until and unless someone produces evidence that shows Snyder didn't, in fact, have reason to believe he could make a three-hour movie or that Snyder, in fact, made the decisions about which scenes got cut and which ones didn't.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Nope. WB told Snyder that he could make a three-hour movie. They reneged on that promise at practically the eleventh hour. And I remain convinced that they picked what scenes got cut as well. They kept the completely superfluous Knightmare Sequence but didn't keep the scene that proves beyond any doubt that Superman didn't just fly away from the Capital Building bombing without even trying to help anyone? That is movie studio thinking right there. Keep the scene that basically advertises "Hey, people! We're making more movies after this one! Go see them too!" but throw away scenes that would've made the movie better? Classic studio move. 
> 
> WB is to blame for BvS until and unless someone produces evidence that shows Snyder didn't, in fact, have reason to believe he could make a three-hour movie or that Snyder, in fact, made the decisions about which scenes got cut and which ones didn't.


Agreed. 

Some of it is definitely still on Snyder, like the characterization of Lex, for example, but I cut him some slack on some of the pacing issues because there are such obvious breaks in the narrative for "Hey did you know we have other movies on deck?".

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> WB is to blame for BvS until and unless someone produces evidence that shows Snyder didn't, in fact, have reason to believe he could make a three-hour movie or that Snyder, in fact, made the decisions about which scenes got cut and which ones didn't.


You need to produce evidence that WB made the decisions about the cut scenes if you want to go that route.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> You need to produce evidence that WB made the decisions about the cut scenes if you want to go that route.


No evidence, just conjecture that perfectly aligns with how movie studios have behaved in the past. 

Snyder's a Superman fan. I highly doubt he would cut a bunch of character development scenes for him in favor of a bunch of scenes that contributed very little to the story. 

Meanwhile? Studios have been mangling movies in favor of advertising for future movies for a long, long time. Several movies in recent years have been accused of having been more about setting up sequels for a franchise than for actually telling a good story. Especially now, in this era in which shared universes are becoming all the rage. The Mummy has been accused of just being a setup for Universal's Dark Universe, that focused more on setting up the universe in just this way. King Arthur Legend of the Sword was also accused of teasing sequels. As was the latest Pirates movie.

Studios do stuff like that all the time.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> As a studio executive, tasked with the trying to make DCEU movies into a profitable product for your company, do you simply ignore all of that in the name of being good to one man? Is one man's contentment worth gambling hundreds of millions of dollars?


Maybe not. But it does not change the fact that this is a scumbaggy thing to do.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> No evidence, just conjecture that perfectly aligns with how movie studios have behaved in the past. 
> 
> Snyder's a Superman fan. I highly doubt he would cut a bunch of character development scenes for him in favor of a bunch of scenes that contributed very little to the story. 
> 
> Meanwhile? Studios have been mangling movies in favor of advertising for future movies for a long, long time. Several movies in recent years have been accused of having been more about setting up sequels for a franchise than for actually telling a good story. Especially now, in this era in which shared universes are becoming all the rage. The Mummy has been accused of just being a setup for Universal's Dark Universe, that focused more on setting up the universe in just this way. King Arthur Legend of the Sword was also accused of teasing sequels. As was the latest Pirates movie.
> 
> Studios do stuff like that all the time.


You asked for evidence... so I asked the same of you.  I am neither a Snyder hater nor defender... I'm one of the guys who like both versions enough but the EC was a better version.  I've even liked all Snyder movies (even Legends of the Guardians) with the exception Sucker Punch.  At the same time WB didn't force Snyder to make the Knightmare sequence.  WB didn't force Snyder to make a superhero movie that was devoid of action until the Knightmare sequence.  You take out the Knightmare (as bad as it was) and the movie goes how long without any action?  I understood the movie just fine and enjoyed it.  I can see why people liked it, but unlike some others I can also understand why some people didn't.  Many of the people within the industry who I have talked to were bored by the first act and half.  I can understand why... I wasn't but I can see why.  If you want to be subtle and clever with dialogue you have to do a better job of keeping the audience's attention.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I think people are panicking (or celebrating, depending on which side you're on) much too soon with this news of reshoots & Whedon bringing in Elfman and changing the entire film. Directors work closely with who does the score, and when directors are also editing a film it requires a close relationship; it's very likely Whedon is just more comfortable with Elfman. 

At the end of the day, this will still be a Zach Snyder film. Don't panic, or celebrate, until trailer #2 comes out and the color filtering has been changed to a more Whedon-esque look. If that happens, then you can assume this is a Whedon picture more than a Snyder one.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Agreed. 
> 
> Some of it is definitely still on Snyder, like the characterization of Lex, for example, but I cut him some slack on some of the pacing issues because there are such obvious breaks in the narrative for "Hey did you know we have other movies on deck?".


Sndyer didn't have to do the almost universally hated Knightmare sequence but if you take that sequence out then you really have very little action til the very end of a superhero movie.  It was kind of an editing nightmare.  The Knightmare sequence, the JL parts, and Doomsday were all things that didn't have to be done and took away from the movie.  The key thing is that that was Snyder's idea!  Can you blame WB?  Absoultely... but there is also a lot that is still on Snyder.  There are plenty of good movies that lack action but this is Batman and Superman.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think people are panicking (or celebrating, depending on which side you're on) much too soon with this news of reshoots & Whedon bringing in Elfman and changing the entire film. Directors work closely with who does the score, and when directors are also editing a film it requires a close relationship; it's very likely Whedon is just more comfortable with Elfman. 
> 
> At the end of the day, this will still be a Zach Snyder film. Don't panic, or celebrate, until trailer #2 comes out and the color filtering has been changed to a more Whedon-esque look. If that happens, then you can assume this is a Whedon picture more than a Snyder one.


This is my point... Snyder has a unique visual style.  If the movie starts looking like a Whedon film with the second trailer then maybe start having issues either way.  If the movie looks 2/3 like a Snyder film and 1/3 like a Whedon film.. Yikes!

----------


## Triple J

> Geoff has been a producer on all the DC films since GL though. Also, WW was being shot at the same time as JL. We saw with BvS and SS, that it was the suits at WB that highjacked the films at the last minute. WW seems to be the only film they didn't meddle with. Justice League though, there is a lot of meddling. Mostly due to the Snyders departing for personal reasons.


WB also meddled with WW....consider the number of writers. I remember reading an interview that week (don't remember who it was..I think it was on Collider), talking about the number of writers involved.

I think that pretty much sums up why WW has a lot of unresolved (or maybe just vague) points...or plotholes, or whatever you want to call it. But, somehow it all worked out in the end.

----------


## darkseidpwns

WW has plot holes? is this DCEU thread or defense of Zack Snyder thread?

----------


## batnbreakfast

Why would WB want to replace Patty Jenkins for the WW sequel? Is that true?

----------


## Agent Z

> WW has plot holes? is this DCEU thread or defense of Zack Snyder thread?


I don't know, is it a Zack Snyder bashing or Zack Snyder fan bashing thread? cause that's all you seem to do every time you post here

----------


## The Kid

> WW has plot holes? is this DCEU thread or defense of Zack Snyder thread?


A good chunk of the DCEU discussion on the internet was populated by Zack Snyder fans after BvS. You can see it on twitter. There are some that were complaining that people were 'jumping back on the bandwagon' after Wonder Woman. But now that it looks like the Snyder era is at an end, I think we will start to see a change. Some people want us to retroactively like BvS and SS after Wonder Woman. And all I'm saying is that ain't happening. I thought those were shit movies before and they are still shit movies

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> WW has plot holes? is this DCEU thread or defense of Zack Snyder thread?


It's neither a Zack Snyder thread *nor* an anti-Zack Snyder thread.

----------


## nightrider

can we stop talking about snyder and start talking about when are they gonna release the line up for the future DCEU movies?

----------


## The Kid

> can we stop talking about snyder and start talking about when are they gonna release the line up for the future DCEU movies?


They probably shouldn't imo. The last slate ended up so off that I don't think they should plan 5-6 years down the line right ahead if they probably aren't going to stick to it.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> They probably shouldn't imo. The last slate ended up so off that I don't think they should plan 5-6 years down the line right ahead if they probably aren't going to stick to it.


Exactly. I think the most we can expect is a behind the scenes look at Aquaman next month for comic con.

----------


## golgi

Wonder Woman WILL out gross Batman V Superman AND Suicide Squad by the end of the month. Incredible multiplier and will be one of the leggiest super hero films of ALL TIME. I did NOT expect this. 




> Glove_bigger.jpg
> Gitesh Pandya @GiteshPandya
> 
> 
> #WonderWoman drops 28% WED to $6.35M beating last wk's 35% TUE-to-WED fall. $227.8M cume, surpasses #DoctorStrange tonight.* $360M+ final.*

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Wonder Woman WILL out gross Batman V Superman AND Suicide Squad by the end of the month. Incredible multiplier and will be one of the leggiest super hero films of ALL TIME. I did NOT expect this.


It has already matched _Logan_'s domestic gross in less than 2 weeks.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Wonder Woman WILL out gross Batman V Superman AND Suicide Squad by the end of the month. Incredible multiplier and will be one of the leggiest super hero films of ALL TIME. I did NOT expect this.


The power of the critics and universally good word of mouth right there. Enough to beat Batman &Superman and Joker & Harley.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The power of the critics and universally good word of mouth right there. Enough to beat Batman &Superman and Joker & Harley.


Exactly...

----------


## The Kid

I think we can stop trying to force other characters into the trinity. I remember when people used to say that Flash, GL, Robin, etc.. all deserve that position more than Diana but I think this movie just solidified her position

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think we can stop trying to force other characters into the trinity. I remember when people used to say that Flash, GL, Robin, etc.. all deserve that position more than Diana but I think this movie just solidified her position


Agreed, but that doesn't mean there can't be a Quartet or Quintet.  :Smile:

----------


## Doctor Know

> Wonder Woman WILL out gross Batman V Superman AND Suicide Squad by the end of the month. Incredible multiplier and will be one of the leggiest super hero films of ALL TIME. I did NOT expect this.


Still have TF5 next friday and Spider-Man Homecoming the week after that to contend with. 

Blockbusters continue to cannibalize one another. 

I hope WW total world wide gross hits close to Suicide Squad or GOTG vol 2 at least. The latter I'm surprised didn't hit closer to a billion.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Still have TF5 next friday and Spider-Man Homecoming the week after that to contend with. 
> 
> Blockbusters continue to cannibalize one another. 
> 
> I hope WW total world wide gross hits close to Suicide Squad or GOTG vol 2 at least. The latter I'm surprised didn't hit closer to a billion.


Cars 3 will derail it from the top spot this weekend.

----------


## Triple J

> WW has plot holes? is this DCEU thread or defense of Zack Snyder thread?


Look, I admit BvS and MOS are flawed, and that many folks didn't like them. That's fair. But, WW is far from perfect.

It's a fun and enjoyable movie, but it was a sore disappointment, at least for me. That said, they have a solid foundation to work with.

I will give you an example of the biggest plothole (or whatever, I am not sure what to call it), since some people are pointing out how heroic Diana is in the film (compared to Clark and Bruce is in MOS and BvS).

*spoilers:*

She has no problem killing soldiers, especially early on, when she believes that they are merely under Ares's influence. She doesn't show any remorse in killing them.

At the same time, she spared Dr. Poison's life (someone who was responsible for perhaps millions of deaths in the war) - of course, that's after realizing that Ares was indeed influencing humans.

And just look at how fast she turned against humans after killing the general. She needed sometime to fully understand the situation (and Steve's help to realize life isn't black and white as she had initially thought), just like Clark needed Lois's help in realizing what's important to him.

That is one example...I don't mind it so much. I can leave it to Jenkins taking liberties with the character. She also happened to take liberties with the status of Gods (which directly affects characters like Shazam).
*end of spoilers*

But, that's fine. After all, I have no problem with Zack taking liberties.

There are other plotholes though...legit flaws in the film (some users have already pointed them out in WW forum).

----------


## ekrolo2

> Still have TF5 next friday and Spider-Man Homecoming the week after that to contend with. 
> 
> Blockbusters continue to cannibalize one another. 
> 
> I hope WW total world wide gross hits close to Suicide Squad or GOTG vol 2 at least. The latter I'm surprised didn't hit closer to a billion.


WW is probably gonne end up somewhere between MoS and SS but it's not gonna reach GotG Vol 2. Hell, the very reason Wonder Woman won't get higher is the same for why Guardians 2 won't get 900 million: there's too many big movies that came out afterward that took away from it. Hell, Disney screwed it over by having Pirates 5 come out relatively soon after.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Wonder Woman WILL out gross Batman V Superman AND Suicide Squad by the end of the month. Incredible multiplier and will be one of the leggiest super hero films of ALL TIME. I did NOT expect this.


There are no brakes on the Wonder Woman train! LOL!

----------


## golgi

> Still have TF5 next friday and Spider-Man Homecoming the week after that to contend with. 
> 
> Blockbusters continue to cannibalize one another. 
> 
> I hope WW total world wide gross hits close to Suicide Squad or GOTG vol 2 at least. The latter I'm surprised didn't hit closer to a billion.



GOTG Vol. 2 was never going to do a billion. It still made a LOT of money and increased a LOT from Vol. 1.

----------


## Rogue Star

> *GOTG Vol. 2 was never going to do a billion.* It still made a LOT of money and increased a LOT from Vol. 1.


Guardians 2 is my second favorite Marvel movie but it's not what most people wanted from the sequel.  And yes, it did have objective flaws. Had it been better AND more in line with the kind of journey people wanted for the characters it would have hit one billion.  The only reason I knew it wouldn't hit a billion before it was released in the States was because I heard the reviews and they were very mixed. I knew then it wouldn't get the necessary repeat viewings.

----------


## golgi

You can say that about a lot of films. However, GOTG didn't have any tracking that stated that it could not 1b. Its not that type of movie, not yet, anyway. People were expecting too much.

----------


## El_Gato

> WW is probably gonne end up somewhere between MoS and SS but it's not gonna reach GotG Vol 2. Hell, the very reason Wonder Woman won't get higher is the same for why Guardians 2 won't get 900 million: there's too many big movies that came out afterward that took away from it. Hell, Disney screwed it over by having Pirates 5 come out relatively soon after.


No it won't. It's going to easily pass MOS and will beat both SS and BVS as well. The most conservative estimates have it ending at 340 million, which surpasses both. In my view it'll do more than that 340 number but by how much depends on how Spider-Man will effect its legs. The fact that WW is pulling in more females and an older audience will definitely work in its favor. Anyway the equation below shows a general rule of thumb for the average movie:

270+35(2)= 340 million DOM

270 (conservative estimate of total DOM by the end of 3rd weekend)

35 x 2 (conservative estimate of 3rd weekend # multiplied by 2 to get remainder of DOM total)

Of course WW isn't performing like the average movie so it'll likely go past 340! And it more than deserves to!

----------


## Lightning Rider

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/06/16/j...s-zack-snyder/



Possible Hall of Justice/Watchtower images:


Apparently Iris makes a cameo in JL, which cements her as Iris. Can't be sure if that guarantees NuWally.

----------


## Troian

> No it won't. It's going to easily pass MOS and will beat both SS and BVS as well. The most conservative estimates have it ending at 340 million, which surpasses both. In my view it'll do more than that 340 number but by how much depends on how Spider-Man will effect its legs. The fact that WW is pulling in more females and an older audience will definitely work in its favor. Anyway the equation below shows a general rule of thumb for the average movie:
> 
> 270+35(2)= 340 million DOM
> 
> 270 (conservative estimate of total DOM by the end of 3rd weekend)
> 
> 35 x 2 (conservative estimate of 3rd weekend # multiplied by 2 to get remainder of DOM total)
> 
> Of course WW isn't performing like the average movie so it'll likely go past 340! And it more than deserves to!


WW has Cars 3, Transformers 5, Despicable Me 3, Spiderman Homecoming, Planet of the Apes within the next 5 weeks. Cars 3 appears to be getting decent reviews, has an established fan base and the children/family demographic so we'll see how well it does this week at the box office. 

I highly doubt this film will in worldwide gross beat SS or BvS numbers, but domestically? Maybe.

----------


## The Kid

It's pretty much locked to beat them domestically just looking at the weekly numbers

----------


## El_Gato

> WW has Cars 3, Transformers 5, Despicable Me 3, Spiderman Homecoming, Planet of the Apes within the next 5 weeks. Cars 3 appears to be getting decent reviews, has an established fan base and the children/family demographic so we'll see how well it does this week at the box office. 
> 
> I highly doubt this film will in worldwide gross beat SS or BvS numbers, but domestically? Maybe.


Never said it would beat them world wide but it'll get real close to matching Suicide Squad. There's just too much competition for it to break out internationally but domestically is an entirely different story. It's still doing really solid numbers overseas though (MOS numbers) but one thing that's been made clear is DC needs to work on building up their brand in China!

35 million is the conservative prediction for this weekend btw.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/06/16/j...s-zack-snyder/
> 
> 
> 
> Possible Hall of Justice/Watchtower images:
> 
> 
> Apparently Iris makes a cameo in JL, which cements her as Iris. Can't be sure if that guarantees NuWally.


Well I suppose that there's a number of ways Classic Wally could occur, even with Kiersey Clemons as Iris.

Iris is adopted into the West family, Iris is biracial and Wally's father is a full-white half brother, etc.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Hopefully this is the end of "Wonder Woman doesn't belong in the trinity cause she isn't popular enough" diatribes.

----------


## Troian

> Hopefully this is the end of "Wonder Woman doesn't belong in the trinity cause she isn't popular enough" diatribes.


Had DC not messed up on the GL movie and they pimped the crap out of Hal after, I wonder how what would have happened today.

----------


## golgi

Jared Leto took his whole band/crew to see Wonder Woman.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVXtj8RgqZy/

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Well I suppose that there's a number of ways Classic Wally could occur, even with Kiersey Clemons as Iris.
> 
> Iris is adopted into the West family, Iris is biracial and Wally's father is a full-white half brother, etc.


Yo, why does this matter? Either way, it's going to be a different interpretation of Wally. If they wanna go for an already set plot for a movie, they'll likely go with NuWally, with his father being the Reverse Flash. That would separate it from the show, and then, if they get to Thawn, he can be the "Professor Zoom" of the DCEU.

Regardless, hoping for a ginger Wally is kinda pointless.

----------


## Outside_85

> Had DC not messed up on the GL movie and they pimped the crap out of Hal after, I wonder how what would have happened today.


In that regard it wouldn't matter, the Trinity is after all not something thats based on sales. DC may have tried to make a Hal/Bats/Supes trinity into a new thing, but kinda like Cyborg on the Justice League... most people wouldn't consider it the real thing.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> In that regard it wouldn't matter, the Trinity is after all not something thats based on sales. DC may have tried to make a Hal/Bats/Supes trinity into a new thing, but kinda like Cyborg on the Justice League... most people wouldn't consider it the real thing.


That depends. Marvel/Disney surely made Ironman and Cap the faces of Marvel to casuals, rather than the usual Wolverine and Spider-Man. Tho, because of female representation, and diversity, WW would likely not get replaced by GL.

The GL I could see replacing her could be John Stewart or Jessica Cruz.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Never said it would beat them world wide but it'll get real close to matching Suicide Squad. There's just too much competition for it to break out internationally but domestically is an entirely different story. It's still doing really solid numbers overseas though (MOS numbers) but one thing that's been made clear is DC needs to work on building up their brand in China!
> 
> 35 million is the conservative prediction for this weekend btw.


I think it has a chance at beating SS worldwide. We may not know for sure until it releases in Japan in late August.  If WW had released in August like SS with far less competition, it would have easily beaten it and possibly even challenged BvS.

----------


## Confuzzled

I don't think GL would have broken out all that much even if it had been executed well. Even Guardians of the Galaxy seems to have found its ceiling and that has a far more kid-friendly Saturday morning cartoon take. I don't know if the very outlandish elements of GL's universe will be received as well as GotG as it takes itself way more seriously.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't think GL would have broken out all that much even if it had been executed well. Even Guardians of the Galaxy seems to have found its ceiling and that has a far more kid-friendly Saturday morning cartoon take. I don't know if the very outlandish elements of GL's universe will be received as well as GotG as it takes itself way more seriously.


Star Wars is taken seriously, and GL is that on a grander scale.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That depends. Marvel/Disney surely made Ironman and Cap the faces of Marvel to casuals, rather than the usual Wolverine and Spider-Man.


Has Spider-Man really been replaced as Marvel's face when it comes to casuals though? Here's a Bloomberg chart for estimated merchandising sales for this year (it's incorrectly labelled 2015 here):



Wolverine is a different matter due to the very restricted merchandising of Fox owned properties.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Star Wars is taken seriously, and GL is that on a grander scale.


Star Wars isn't as outlandish as the concept of the ring based constructs. A lot of people cannot seem to take that aspect seriously.

----------


## mace11

> Varied tones? Not necessarily. It's a shame really. Marvel is so full of potential...especially because their characters aren't exactly heroes - but flawed individual problems. But, none of them is explored in detail in any of the movies. Nothing to do with Marvel, but with Disney wanting to capture the family audience. It's pretty much evident in many of their movies - they have a certain formula and they stick with it. But, I do agree that they take risks, like with GOTG. Ultimately many of their movies just come down to popcorn fun (There's nothing wrong with it, I personally think it's foolish considering all the rich stories Marvel has published over the years. But then again, I don't stand to lose or again any movie over these movies). Oh, well I can always go back and read the comics.
> 
> For instance: Tony is an alcoholic..sure, they do show that in the IM movies, but I don't think it's explored in detail, like in the comics.
> 
> DC on the other hand, are generally the heroes - they aren't necessarily showcased as flawed individuals, but paragons of certain ideals. But, DCEU seem to go in a different route (Which I love btw).


Many marvel heroes are heroes,so disagree with that view that they are not exactly.
They are and some are more heroic then others just dc heroes.
You could find number of anti-heroes in dc too.
fun.

All Superheroes FILMS are suppose to be fun.
Of course many are serious.
Some more THEN OTHERS.
If they are not popcorn fun,then you have problem.
The mcu films don't into details about every character in like the dceu films.
In fact character development on average is stronger in mcu films then dceu films and fox x-men films,so there are characters they go into details,some more then others.
For more detail character development the dc and marvel shows go deeper then movies anyway.

The tones for the mcu films  are the most diverse in phase 1.
It's phase 2 that folks started having more problems with when it comes to tones.
Nobody was complaining about  tone in phase 1.
You started hearing about the tone for  mcu films in phase 2
The tone starting to become more closer to each other in phase 2.
Captain america 2  tone was the most different in phase 2.
It is more serious and darker on average then the rest of phase 2.
The tone in phase 3 will overall be more different then phase 2 and 1.

Now the for dceu,the tones are less varied then mcu films and if you add the mcu shows,comics,web stuff etc.. the mcu tone is more varied.
We have wait and see how the tone well be in first dceu show krypton.
I think the black panther film/s will be similar in tone to the captain america films.
In fact i think more serious on average.


As for tony,they did not go into detail about his alcoholic problems,but they went into another problem he had.
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
Other problems they go into.
The Military Industrial Complex and the War on Terror 
Drone Warfare
Ethics on Film: Discussion of "Iron Man 3"
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/publi...film/0012.html

Wonder Woman Tone NOT A Response To Batman V Superman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNKFnOvW1KQ

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Has Spider-Man really been replaced as Marvel's face when it comes to casuals though? Here's a Bloomberg chart for estimated merchandising sales for this year (it's incorrectly labelled 2015 here):
> 
> 
> 
> Wolverine is a different matter due to the very restricted merchandising of Fox owned properties.


I'm talking more movies, than merchandise.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Star Wars isn't as outlandish as the concept of the ring based constructs. A lot of people cannot seem to take that aspect seriously.


So they can take seriously an improbable laser sword, and Force abilities that sometimes work, and flawed, and generic, good/evil plotline over space cops with weaponized emotions, that can create anything based off of imagination?

People are lame, man.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm talking more movies, than merchandise.


It's hard to define even there. I think Spider-Man has more pull than Captain America by himself even at the box office (Winter Soldier had a post-Avengers Black Widow helping boost sales, Civil War had almost the entire team including the MCU's introduction of Spidey himself).

A case can be made for Iron Man based on _Iron Man 3_'s performance, but one has to wonder whether that was his peak, especially considering even Civil War couldn't make as much money as IM3. It will be interesting to see whether _Homecoming_ restores Spider-Man back to his former box office glory.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So they can take seriously an improbable laser sword, and Force abilities that sometimes work, and flawed, and generic, good/evil plotline over space cops with weaponized emotions, that can create anything based off of imagination?
> 
> People are lame, man.


The biggest critics point out that there aren't any real stakes when the constructs can be anything.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yo, why does this matter? Either way, it's going to be a different interpretation of Wally. If they wanna go for an already set plot for a movie, they'll likely go with NuWally, with his father being the Reverse Flash. That would separate it from the show, and then, if they get to Thawn, he can be the "Professor Zoom" of the DCEU.
> 
> Regardless, hoping for a ginger Wally is kinda pointless.


I mean it matters to anyone who loves ginger Wally as a character. I'd much prefer to avoid the Daniel West story.

----------


## mace11

> I think the 8.5 and 85 are two different things. The 85 is the percent of people giving it a thumbs up whereas the 8.5 is the score out of 10. For example, so far, WW has been recommended by 97% of critics but has an average score of 7.7. Doctor Strange was recommended by 90% of critics and has an average score of 7.3


I know,but even the RT score is translated into a star rating system.
For example type in google wonder woman RT.
You will see they give it a star rating system too.
You will see 4 1/2 stars.
The RT score now is 92%.
Of course the average critic score is 7.6
That would be a 4 star movie from the critics score on average

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The biggest critics point out that there aren't any real stakes when the constructs can be anything.


But the Force makes the stakes real?

While the constructs can be anything, those things can still be btoken, and each spectrum has its advantages and weaknesses. Also, it adds to the variety of the combat, and visuals.

Like I said, people are lame.

----------


## mace11

I am going to talk about this popcorn movie stuff below.

----------


## Confuzzled

> But the Force makes the stakes real?
> 
> While the constructs can be anything, those things can still be btoken, and each spectrum has its advantages and weaknesses. Also, it adds to the variety of the combat, and visuals.
> 
> Like I said, people are lame.


I think SW's nostalgic factor gives it a massive pass. It helps that the Force cannot be abruptly manifested into a machine gun though.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I mean it matters to anyone who loves ginger Wally as a character. I'd much prefer to avoid the Daniel West story.


Well, it's likely not going to happen with Iris being black, or mixed. Gingers don't come from that, often, if at all. Also, the Daniel West story is a tragic one that could be adapted well on film. 

Tho, if Aquaman is already going that route with Black Manta, it may not happen.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think SW's nostalgic factor gives it a massive pass. It helps that the Force cannot be abruptly manifested into a machine gun though.


Yeah, but sometimes it let's characters move at super speeds, and other times it doesn't. :/

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yeah, but sometimes it let's characters move at super speeds, and other times it doesn't. :/


I didn't make the rules.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Vague and inconsistent Force powers are still less noticeable than those dang constructs though so I can kind of understand the "hypocritical" attitude. Personally speaking I'm just a very casual follower of both franchises being discussed here.

----------


## mace11

Edited/added info above or the last page.



The mcu films,other marvel films  and the dc films are popcorn films.


DC Finally Realizes That It’s OK For Superhero Movies To Be Fun



> After repeatedly saying that they were never going to become more like Marvel, it seems that a sea change is about to occur. However, if this means that we’ll be getting better DC movies, bring it on.
> 
> There are many reasons why Wonder Woman has been such a runaway success — Surprise! Women want to see themselves represented onscreen and will shell out money for tickets! — but part of the film’s appeal is how it was such a divergence away from the dour sensibilities that has overcome DC films in recent years. While it was thrilling to see the Amazons destroy Germans on the beach of Themyscira and witnessing Diana (Gal Gadot) run through No Man’s Land, little moments like her discovery of ice cream, seeing her first baby, and her developing relationship with Steve Trevor (Chris Pine) gave the movie real heart.
> 
> On the plus side, it seems like DC is listening. Following Wonder Woman’s welcome and successful shift in tone, DC is starting to rethink their “dark and gritty” approach to super heroics. While speaking to The Wrap, DC Entertainment president Geoff Johns explained that we are on the cusp of a real tonal shift. According to Johns, the DCU will now be focused on fun:
> 
>     “That couldn’t be more wrong. [The difference is] a hopeful and optimistic view of life. Even Batman has a glimmer of that in him.”
> 
> After repeatedly saying that they were never going to become more like Marvel, it seems that a sea change is about to occur. However, if this means that we’ll be getting better DC movies, bring it on.


http://uproxx.com/hitfix/dc-films-wi...un-wonder-woma

Many popcorn films are well done and some more serious  then others.

All superhero movies are popcorn films.
They are suppose to be fun.

Here is a list of popcorn films and where others ranked them on their lists.
Best popcorn films of the last 30 years.
http://www.listchallenges.com/best-p...-last-30-years

The Most Entertaining Popcorn Movies of 2014
http://collider.com/best-popcorn-movies-2014/

----------


## mace11

> Guardians 2 is my second favorite Marvel movie but it's not what most people wanted from the sequel.  And yes, it did have objective flaws. Had it been better AND more in line with the kind of journey people wanted for the characters it would have hit one billion.  The only reason I knew it wouldn't hit a billion before it was released in the States was because I heard the reviews and they were very mixed. I knew then it wouldn't get the necessary repeat viewings.


I have not seen gofg vol.2 yet,but i heard that the characters had stronger development then the first movie on average but the story was not as strong on average from the critics.
Looking at RT and RT rating the reviews on average were positive,not very mixed.
Most critics like it.
It has a 81% rt rating.

----------


## mace11

> Yep. Vixen would be a perfect addition to the Justice League. Especially in the movies. Both women and minorities have complained about Marvel's lack of effort in representing them since the MCU came into being. Vixen could serve both women and minorities on the Justice League, and her powers would be interesting and make her useful for multiple roles within the team. She wouldn't seem like a token character at all. She's a "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" kind of character. She can do a little bit of everything. Frontline combat, stealth, reconnaissance.....you name it.


Like i said before,the marvel(mcu and non-mcu) and dc tv shows are doing a better job on average when it comes to diversity and representing then marvel and dc movies on average.
The movies are and will improve,but the shows are improving more greatly then the movies on average.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Many marvel heroes are heroes,so disagree with that view that they are not exactly.
> They are and some are more heroic then others just dc heroes.
> You could find number of anti-heroes in dc too.
> fun.
> 
> All Superheroes FILMS are suppose to be fun.
> Of course many are serious.
> Some more THEN OTHERS.
> If they are not popcorn fun,then you have problem.
> ...


Not this again.

----------


## mace11

> The tone in phase 3 will overall be more different then phase 2 and 1.





> As for tony,they did not go into detail about his alcoholic problems,but they went into another problem he had.






> Not this again.


I came back to reply to the other guys that replied to me.
I was not planning to but i said, what the heck let me get it over with.

----------


## The Kid

> Has Spider-Man really been replaced as Marvel's face when it comes to casuals though? Here's a Bloomberg chart for estimated merchandising sales for this year (it's incorrectly labelled 2015 here):
> 
> 
> 
> Wolverine is a different matter due to the very restricted merchandising of Fox owned properties.


Star Wars, Disney Princesses, Spidey and the Avengers take the top spot on this list

Jesus.. Disney is swimming in money

----------


## Punisher007

They also own Pixar as well, so add that to it as well.

----------


## Mr. Mastermind

Late to say it but Wonder Woman was solid. Best DC film since Dark Knight Rises and makes me optimistic for other DC films.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Late to say it but Wonder Woman was solid. Best DC film since Dark Knight Rises and makes me optimistic for other DC films.


Woah! You still like TDKRises? It's one of those films that people turned on in retrospect but reappraised Batman Begins for being one of the better films in Nolan's trilogy.

----------


## The Kid

> Woah! You still like TDKRises? It's one of those films that people turned on in retrospect but reappraised Batman Begins for being one of the better films in Nolan's trilogy.


Can't speak for Mastermind but I still love TDKRises. Then again, I also like Ultron despite a lot of the internet apparently hating it so it is what it is

----------


## Jcady59

> Woah! You still like TDKRises? It's one of those films that people turned on in retrospect but reappraised Batman Begins for being one of the better films in Nolan's trilogy.


I feel like the Dark Knight Rises suffered from being released in a post avengers world, the landscape for superhero films and how people who watched and made them viewed these films had changed with that film for better or for worse. Sure it had some plot holes and pacing problems but so do most superhero movies, but if TDKRises was relesed the previous year i think the reception would of a lot more positive both immediately and in the long run.

----------


## El_Gato

> Has Spider-Man really been replaced as Marvel's face when it comes to casuals though? Here's a Bloomberg chart for estimated merchandising sales for this year (it's incorrectly labelled 2015 here):
> 
> 
> 
> Wolverine is a different matter due to the very restricted merchandising of Fox owned properties.


Wonder Woman matching The Avengers and Batman is incredible!! She's having quite the year and a huge spike in popularity! All that's missing is an animated show!

On a side note, WB should really work on expanding and building up the DC Superhero Girls brand! I have no doubt in my mind that if they did it could end up reaching Disney Princess levels of success. Expanding into lego was a good idea and getting a full on animated show was as well but hopefully the web series, graphic novels, and dtv's continue as well

----------


## Doctor Know

> I feel like the Dark Knight Rises suffered from being released in a post avengers world, the landscape for superhero films and how people who watched and made them viewed these films had changed with that film for better or for worse. Sure it had some plot holes and pacing problems but so do most superhero movies, but if TDKRises was relesed the previous year i think the reception would of a lot more positive both immediately and in the long run.


Lol, TDKRises was released the same summer as Avengers. The problem people had with it was the lack of Batman, the idiocy of Gordon ordering all the cops in the the sewers to be trapped, Bane and Talia's plan to destroy Gotham (even though the city was no longer a cesspool of corruption and crime) and the fact that it felt more like a generic summer action movie featuring the cast of Inception. 


It's remarkable regardless. At the time, Batman Begins wasn't anyone's favorite Batman film, and was considered "ok". After Rises, BB was reappraised and more people like it and considered it a great film.

----------


## The Kid

> I feel like the Dark Knight Rises suffered from being released in a post avengers world, the landscape for superhero films and how people who watched and made them viewed these films had changed with that film for better or for worse. Sure it had some plot holes and pacing problems but so do most superhero movies, but if TDKRises was relesed the previous year i think the reception would of a lot more positive both immediately and in the long run.


Dark Knight Rises didn't really suffer. There are people that dislike it but it had great critical reviews and made over a billion dollars. It's the most successful DC movie ever after only TDK, the first Donner Superman flick, and maybe the first Burton Batman flick. In the end, audiences still loved the movie (about 450 million domestically which is only less than TDK and both Avengers flicks)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's remarkable regardless. At the time, Batman Begins wasn't anyone's favorite Batman film, and was considered "ok". After Rises, BB was reappraised and more people like it and considered it a great film.


I think some fans and critics were burned out after _Batman & Robin_. Fortunately, it still made a profit and the Nolanverse kept rolling along.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Dark Knight Rises didn't really suffer. There are people that dislike it but it had great critical reviews and made over a billion dollars. It's the most successful DC movie ever after only TDK, the first Donner Superman flick, and maybe the first Burton Batman flick. In the end, audiences still loved the movie (about 450 million domestically which is only less than TDK and both Avengers flicks)


Yeah, it mystifies me when I hear criticism of it now. I sometimes feel they're talking about another film.  :Smile:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Yeah, it mystifies me when I hear criticism of it now. I sometimes feel they're talking about another film.


Rises has too many story flaws from the easy cop out from Robin finding out Bruce is Batman based off facial expressions too Alfred just expositioning every 5 seconds after googling to the terrible shift of villains, TDK did it pretty seemingly. 

Honestly TDK was a perfect ending we just needed a film in between that and BB to have gotten the perfect trilogy.

TDKR is very well made but I think hype tookover back then.

----------


## The Kid

> Yeah, it mystifies me when I hear criticism of it now. I sometimes feel they're talking about another film.


I understand the criticism but I still think the movie was very well-made and the very strong emotional beats were as good as it gets in a movie. I think TDKrises is actually a good example of how a very well-crafted movie with good acting and likable heroes can make up for flaws in the script

----------


## Rogue Star

> Can't speak for Mastermind but I still love TDKRises. Then again, I also like Ultron despite a lot of the internet apparently hating it so it is what it is


I don't care what anyone says, The Dark Knight Rises is the shiz'nit. I paid for two of my friends to see it the second time I went.  We thought Bane kicked so much ass. It was legendary... films. Lol

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I understand the criticism but I still think the movie was very well-made and the very strong emotional beats were as good as it gets in a movie. I think TDKrises is actually a good example of how a very well-crafted movie with good acting and likable heroes can make up for flaws in the script


All the emotional beats were with the the existing established characters. The new characters were handled extremely poorly in the end which was unfortunate. 

The actual script of Rises was *much* better the changes Nolan did wartered down the final act. The final battle was amazing in the script the rematch with Bane was as brutal as the sewer if not more! So much better than the tame ballet we got.

----------


## The Kid

> I don't care what anyone says, The Dark Knight Rises is the shiz'nit. I paid for two of my friends to see it the second time I went.  We thought Bane kicked so much ass. It was legendary... films. Lol


I feel you man. Me and my best friend saw it midnight premiere and were so hyped after that movie. Also had one of the best crowds I've seen at a movie. Took my sister the next weekend and she loved it as well and she doesn't even like superhero movies

----------


## JediKage

> So they can take seriously an improbable laser sword, and Force abilities that sometimes work, and flawed, and generic, good/evil plotline over space cops with weaponized emotions, that can create anything based off of imagination?
> 
> People are lame, man.


Yes not sure how that is hard to understand.

A Laser sword sure but at its heart its a sword basically a magic sword and its not like Fiction isn't littered with swords that can cut through anything for millennium. 

The Force is just a magic system again Fiction is filled again for Millennium. 

That is a far cry from a supposed technological ring that lets people use Willpower to create green constructs.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I think some fans and critics were burned out after _Batman & Robin_. Fortunately, it still made a profit and the Nolanverse kept rolling along.


Timing as well. Many people were still huge fans of Burtons two films. Also, by 2005, Begins had to compete with X2 (2003) and Spider-Man 2 (2004), with the public perception of how to do a super hero movie. Begins didn't set the world on fire like those two movies did. Time has vindicated Nolan's reboot.

----------


## Troian

> Yes not sure how that is hard to understand.
> 
> A Laser sword sure but at its heart its a sword basically a magic sword and its not like Fiction isn't littered with swords that can cut through anything for millennium. 
> 
> The Force is just a magic system again Fiction is filled again for Millennium. 
> 
> That is a far cry from a supposed technological ring that lets people use Willpower to create green constructs.


Nostalgia and a dedicated fanbase that has expanded world wide over the past several decades.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

I just watched AoU again...THAT score is completely forgettable, and uninspired. Yeah, he did the 2002 Spider-Man scores, but he's not done anything of note in years.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> All the emotional beats were with the the existing established characters. The new characters were handled extremely poorly in the end which was unfortunate. 
> 
> The actual script of Rises was *much* better the changes Nolan did wartered down the final act. The final battle was amazing in the script the rematch with Bane was as brutal as the sewer if not more! So much better than the tame ballet we got.


What script is this? Nolan doesn't do that, he doesn't go for Extended Cuts and alternate takes. What we saw was his vision, and Rises legacy and reception is just fine.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

The box office run for Wonder Woman is nothing short of spectacular. 
Her foreign numbers are dragging a little, but the movie picks up some of its last remaining markets this weekend and next.
Hughes is saying the movie should be sitting over $550 million worldwide by the end of Sunday:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#1e2a2db7cf22

He's keeping his estimate right around $685 million worldwide by the time it finishes. I think there's a small chance it breaks $700 million. It has to keep its legs through Cars 3, Transformers, and Spiderman, though.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The box office run for Wonder Woman is nothing short of spectacular. 
> Her foreign numbers are dragging a little, but the movie picks up some of its last remaining markets this weekend and next.
> Hughes is saying the movie should be sitting over $550 million worldwide by the end of Sunday:
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#1e2a2db7cf22
> 
> He's keeping his estimate right around $685 million worldwide by the time it finishes. I think there's a small chance it breaks $700 million. It has to keep its legs through Cars 3, Transformers, and Spiderman, though.


IOW, superheroine films can indeed succeed!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Film isn't even gonna make a billion FLOP. WB spent 600m on marketing the film,  it has to make 950m to break even, WB were hoping it was gonna be making TFA numbers. The DCEU is over.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Film isn't even gonna make a billion FLOP. WB spent 600m on marketing the film,  it has to make 950m to break even, WB were hoping it was gonna be making TFA numbers. The DCEU is over.


Heh. *Very* glad we're not hearing that this time.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Heh. *Very* glad we're not hearing that this time.


Haha yeah. It looks like its gonna get perched of top spot by Cars but that's okay, said before the film came out that 500m would be pretty successful but the fact it could hit 700m is a testament. Still only seen it once myself would love to go again before it leaves theaters hopefully get time during the next few weeks. Seriously going to movies isn't as easy now as it was back in the teen years so much free time then lol.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Haha yeah. It looks like its gonna get perched of top spot by Cars but that's okay, said before the film came out that 500m would be pretty successful but the fact it could hit 700m is a testament. Still only seen it once myself would love to go again before it leaves theaters hopefully get time during the next few weeks. Seriously going to movies isn't as easy now as it was back in the teen years so much free time then lol.


Agreed. There was a time back in the '80s and '90s when I would see a movie once a week, but that's not nearly the case for me in this century.

----------


## Robotman

The Tupac movie is performing far better than expected. It may push Wonder Woman to third this weekend.

----------


## ekrolo2

I found this little gem a little while ago, a really good example for how the WW solo movie justifies her inclusion in BvS.

----------


## El_Gato

> The Tupac movie is performing far better than expected. It may push Wonder Woman to third this weekend.


It wont. That movie is incredibly front loaded plus Friday was Tupac's bday. WW is looking at 38-43 million weekend, depending on how it holds today and Sunday!

Also that 3rd Friday number is larger than movies like Civil War, TDKR, and Age of Ultron! That's huge! It's incredible that WW stands a very good chance of beating MOS 2nd weekend and matching SS 2nd weekend in her 3rd!!!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

JL additional photography can't be that extensive if Mamoa's off to rock concerts barley days after they started.

----------


## Confuzzled

> JL additional photography can't be that extensive if Mamoa's off to rock concerts barley days after they started.


Didn't they say the reshoots would focus more on Wonder Woman and Superman? Maybe Aquaman isn't in the reshoots all that much.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Didn't they say the reshoots would focus more on Wonder Woman and Superman? Maybe Aquaman isn't in the reshoots all that much.


Exactly.  When a production starts all the actors aren't brought in at once.  Also Mamoa does seem to have a rare ability to party hard AND stay in shape.  Aquaman may not be in the reshoots much ... or they might not need him until a certain time.  His schedule might also be the busiest since he is already shooting Aquaman.  Not matter how big or how little his involvement in the reshoots is he could definitely be the hardest to schedule.  




> The Tupac movie is performing far better than expected. It may push Wonder Woman to third this weekend.


I absolutely expected Cars 3... that Tupac would be a shocker.

----------


## nightrider

Estimated $40mil is one of the lowest 3rd week drop for any movie above $100mil. 
Great Job WW team

----------


## golgi

Wonder Woman might surpass The Force Awakens for having the best multiplier above 100 million opening weekend. Incredible.

----------


## Robotman

Wonder Woman really means a lot to so many. 

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...htmlstory.html

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Film isn't even gonna make a billion FLOP. WB spent 600m on marketing the film,  it has to make 950m to break even, WB were hoping it was gonna be making TFA numbers. The DCEU is over.


Wonder Woman broke even at between $300-350 million dollars, if it makes around $650-700 then it would have gotten the studio hundreds of millions in profits just from the theaters alone.
BvS featured Batman and Superman and likely didn't even get a $100 million in profits, no comparison, WW is multiple times more profitable than BvS.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Wonder Woman broke even at between $300-350 million dollars, if it makes around $650-700 then it would have gotten the studio hundreds of millions in profits just from the theaters alone.
> BvS featured Batman and Superman and likely didn't even get a $100 million in profits, no comparison, WW is multiple times more profitable than BvS.


It also helps that it's much cheaper. Infinity War can be the best movie ever, but it's likely gotta make at least $1.2-1.5 billion to start to make them serious profit.

WW isn't a better movie than BvS:UE, imo, but it was definitely handled better financially. Deadpool, Logan, and now WW are the kind of examples that these CBMs need to follow.

----------


## ekrolo2

> It also helps that it's much cheaper. Infinity War can be the best movie ever, but it's likely gotta make at least $1.2-1.5 billion to start to make them serious profit.
> 
> WW isn't a better movie than BvS:UE, imo, but it was definitely handled better financially. Deadpool, Logan, and now WW are the kind of examples that these CBMs need to follow.


You're not wrong about Infinity War, Deadline posted earnings for the likes of Iron Man 3, Avengers Age of Ultron and a bunch of other Phase 2 Marvel stuff and the absolute most they made from them was IM3s 300 million in pure profit.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Film isn't even gonna make a billion FLOP. WB spent 600m on marketing the film,  it has to make 950m to break even, WB were hoping it was gonna be making TFA numbers. The DCEU is over.


Nah. They spent about a billion on marketing. Meaning WW should have made 2 billion to just break even. I have sources that tell me that WB expected the movie to make 3 billion minimum. I don't care if people liked it. It's a complete failure. DCEU has failed. They should hire Richard Donner  to make SUPERMAN V: the trunks strike back with Tom Welling as Superman with Chris Reeve's face CGI'd on his head,and reboot the whole thing. Or, failing that license the DC characters to Marvel Studies to make these movies the Right way!




 :Smile: 

I'm kidding, of course!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Man, you guys are bad.  :Smile:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> It also helps that it's much cheaper. Infinity War can be the best movie ever, but it's likely gotta make at least $1.2-1.5 billion to start to make them serious profit.
> 
> WW isn't a better movie than BvS:UE, imo, but it was definitely handled better financially. Deadpool, Logan, and now WW are the kind of examples that these CBMs need to follow.


I would honestly love DC to make.a Superman movie for no more than a 150 million, and just under 2 hours long just to see if they can.

Not every film in this genre need to be $250 million +  3 hour long epics. With the right ethos behind it you could do a top notch MOS follow up with Brainiac as the villain and easily fall within those parameters and it would still feel as grandiose and epic as the first MOS. WW feels like a 200 million dollar movie, but was made for at least 50 million less.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Man, you guys are bad.


What's sad is I'm only mildly exaggerating the type of ridiculous hyperbole and lunacy that was being spewed with both MOS and BvS.

----------


## Troian

Cars 3 beat it this weekend but it wasn't too bad of a drop. But within the next 4 weeks, she has Transformers, Despicable Me 3, Spider-Man and planet of the apes to contend with. Still though the film is a big success.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Cars 3 beat it this weekend but it wasn't too bad of a drop. But within the next 4 weeks, she has Transformers, Despicable Me 3, Spider-Man and planet of the apes to contend with. Still though the film is a big success.


Wasn't _too bad a drop_? She made more than the third weekends of "event" superhero films like Age of Ultron, Civil War and The Dark Knight Rises!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Wonder Woman delivered higher than originally estimated. 
I saw some news headlines leading up to the weekend saying Cars 3 was going to "zoom past" Wonder Woman or "race past" Wonder Woman (anything to try and diminish the DCEU, huh?).

Boy, it sure did "race past" with only an estimated $13.5 million more on the weekend… Wonder Woman was estimated to only pull $30-$35 million this weekend but the latest estimate is $40 million. 

This movie's legs are unreal for the DCEU (and on par and better than much of the MCU), and honestly much better than anticipated. I do believe it now stands a very good chance of cracking $700 million, and I sincerely hope it does. It's standing at $570 million worldwide now and still opens in a couple more foreign markets over the next 1-2 weeks. I don't see why it won't be sitting around $640 million by the end of next weekend. It should pull in another solid week domestically this week to the tune of $20-$25 million, I'm guessing.
The foreign markets aren't *too* hot on Wonder Woman as the difference is only 48%-52% domestic/foreign. 

Stiff competition ahead, for sure. But the legs are loaded. I expect solid runs for at least the next two weeks before seeing any real drops from the competition.

Just guessing/estimating at this point: 

Monday-Thursday = $20 million, plus another $22 million weekend, domestic.
I say probably a $50 million foreign week + weekend. 

42+50 = 92 + 571 = $663 (Man of Steel's TOTAL was $668) by the end of next weekend.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Wonder Woman delivered higher than originally estimated. 
> I saw some news headlines leading up to the weekend saying Cars 3 was going to "zoom past" Wonder Woman or "race past" Wonder Woman (anything to try and diminish the DCEU, huh?).


I think those lame puns were because of Cars finishing first more than downplaying Wonder Woman or DCEU's success.

But whereas Wonder Woman exceeded expectations yet again, Cars 3 actually underperformed considering its previous estimates. So that "victory" is nothing to write home about.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I think those lame puns were because of Cars finishing first more than downplaying Wonder Woman or DCEU's success.
> 
> But whereas Wonder Woman exceeded expectations yet again, Cars 3 actually underperformed considering its previous estimates. So that "victory" is nothing to write home about.


You're probably right.

----------


## inisideguy

LOL LOL. Wasn't to bad of a drop. Love these comments. This movie is doing incredible. Literally its doing things no other CBM has done in 20 years.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> LOL LOL. Wasn't to bad of a drop. Love these comments. This movie is doing incredible. Literally its doing things no other CBM has done in 20 years.


It's nothing short of sensational. Every time that I log on to my computer and check out either Box Office Mojo or Wikipedia it's global total has dramatically shot up again (currently standing at 571 million).

Before the film was released I said on this very thread that I'd be happy if Diana managed to clear half a billion and she's totally smashed it!

The DCEU is dead etc, etc.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's nothing short of sensational. Every time that I log on to my computer and check out either Box Office Mojo or Wikipedia it's global total has dramatically shot up again (currently standing at 571 million).
> 
> Before the film was released I said on this very thread that I'd be happy if Diana managed to clear half a billion and she's totally smashed it!
> 
> The DCEU is dead etc, etc.


I'm kind of surprised we haven't been seeing a few "Well, it's Wonder Woman, so it was to be expected it would do as well as it's doing... blah, blah, blah."

----------


## WillieMorgan

> I'm kind of surprised we haven't been seeing a few "Well, it's Wonder Woman, so it was to be expected it would do as well as it's doing... blah, blah, blah."


I think that their battle plans have been redrawn recently. They seem to have shifted their focus from impending doom and gloom to endlessly focusing on BvS and SS's 'failings' ad nauseum.

It's a free world folks but I don't think you're going to change people's minds. Not after all this time. That horse bolted a long time ago for most.

----------


## inisideguy

> I think that their battle plans have been redrawn recently. They seem to have shifted their focus from impending doom and gloom to endlessly focusing on BvS and SS's 'failings' ad nauseum.
> 
> It's a free world folks but I don't think you're going to change people's minds. Not after all this time. That horse bolted a long time ago for most.


 LOL you are so right. They have shifted their focus to basically yea well what about Hillary :Smile:  I still loved the what about the drop guy when SS was out. He was complaining about the drop for like 2 months and the movie made 325 million dollars in the states.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> LOL you are so right. They have shifted their focus to basically yea well what about Hillary I still loved the what about the drop guy when SS was out. He was complaining about the drop for like 2 months and the movie made 325 million dollars in the states.


Yeah, I remember him. I think that was over on the TV/Film board. He never came back did he  :Stick Out Tongue: ? The way that all the negative activity and doom-mongering about a lack of 'legs' dropped off so sharply and suddenly on that thread was so hilarious after SS shot past $700 million and crapped all over their 'facts and figures'. So much so that I felt compelled to post this entirely apt GIF on there:

https://media.giphy.com/media/O38dU2kkQ9sWc/giphy.gif

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> LOL you are so right. They have shifted their focus to basically yea well what about Hillary I still loved the what about the drop guy when SS was out. He was complaining about the drop for like 2 months and the movie made 325 million dollars in the states.


I tried explaining back then that when a movie has a huge opening, it will make a lot of money whatever its multiplier is (unless it's budget is insane like the 1963 _Cleopatra_ of course). If there's a case contrary to that, it's the rare exception to the rule.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think that their battle plans have been redrawn recently. They seem to have shifted their focus from impending doom and gloom to endlessly focusing on BvS and SS's 'failings' ad nauseum.


Yes, I have noticed that myself, Willie.

----------


## inisideguy

> Yeah, I remember him. I think that was over on the TV/Film board. He never came back did he ? The way that all the negative activity and doom-mongering about a lack of 'legs' dropped off so sharply and suddenly on that thread was so hilarious after SS shot past $700 million and crapped all over their 'facts and figures'. So much so that I felt compelled to post this entirely apt GIF on there:
> 
> https://media.giphy.com/media/O38dU2kkQ9sWc/giphy.gif


 It was sort of like this movie is so bad no one even understands and they are going out to see this cause they are such fools. That argument went on forever but he wasn't the only one. There seems to no actual money these WB superhero movies can make to satisfy their negative impulses. But Thor, or Doctor Strange, or Cap 1 or 2 Ant man, make some money nothing like this and they can't stop acting like they are just rolling in cash and they are avatar. Then someone comes on and says errrrr every DCEU movie crushed these at the box office and their answer is yea of course they did they should have. LOL ya can't win.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It was sort of like this movie is so bad no one even understands and they are going out to see this cause they are such fools.


As a fan of the previous DCEU films (I haven't seen _Wonder Woman_ yet - expecting to see it as a birthday present in a week or so), that's the one thing that I found to be quite infuriating in a number of posts. I have *zero* problem regarding anybody not liking something I like, but when you insinuate I'm a doofus for liking it...

----------


## BatmanJones

> What's sad is I'm only mildly exaggerating the type of ridiculous hyperbole and lunacy that was being spewed with both MOS and BvS.


This is EXACTLY how I feel about Identity Crisis but I don't go around telling people they're "ridiculous" or "lunatics" if they didn't love it as I did.

And I don't call criticism of it "unfair" as so many BvS backers do here wrt Snyder because I don't regard ANY response to a piece of art to be wrong or unfair. But the lovers of these films really do. And they ascribe false motives to those that disagree which is incredibly insulting--every bit as insulting and dismissive of those that don't like it as the other way around and I'd say more so. Here, at least, the lovers of those films are more critical of those that hated these films than any movie, TV show, or comic book I've ever seen discussed here.

I would NEVER want to take the love of a film or any other work of art away from someone that loved those things and I don't much appreciate being told I'm 'WRONG' for loving Identity Crisis. But the people that loved those films act as victims of wrong/dumb people that don't agree with them and they constantly ascribe false motives to those of us that really wanted to love them and just couldn't. It's the most boorish behavior I ever see on these boards. And it's almost always from the defenders of the films and not the other way around. The defenders of the films make it personal and tell you you're a jerk because you don't share their opinions. The ones that authentically hated the films tend instead to criticize the films themselves, which is absolutely fair game.

And yet we're constantly being told how "unfair" our opinions are. It's gross.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This is EXACTLY how I feel about Identity Crisis but I don't go around telling people they're "ridiculous" or "lunatics" if they didn't love it as I did.
> 
> And I don't call criticism of it "unfair" as so many BvS backers do here wrt Snyder.
> 
> The behavior of the lovers of MoS, BvS, SS are every bit as insulting and dismissive of those that don't like it as the other way around. Here, at least, the lovers of those films are more critical of those that didn't share their opinion than any movie, TV show, or comic book I've ever seen discussed here.
> 
> The people that loved those films... I would NEVER want to take that away from them and I don't much appreciate being told I'm 'WRONG' for loving Identity Crisis. But the people that loved those films act as victims of wrong/dumb people that don't agree with them. It's the definition of "boorish."


I personally don't like _Identity Crisis_ for reasons many could understand in regard to the earlier DCEU films, but I totally agree nobody should tell you how to feel about it. I don't understand that type of thinking. What you like is what you like - period!

----------


## Lightning Rider

I think there's a difference between not liking a film and parroting doom and gloom with hyperbolic statements and double standards constantly. That's what was being mocked, not simply the dislike of the film.

----------


## El_Gato

Judging by Wonder Woman's current performance, both domestically and internationally, I feel 750 million is a lock at this point! Its going to pass MOS numbers overseas and the ceiling for it's DOM total goes up every week. I can see it passing GotG2 DOM as well, just depends on how it continues to hold up. That's incredible and the film deserves all the praise!

----------


## Roderick

Food for thought.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Food for thought.


I just can't mess with Leto's Joker, man lol. When he started purring like a Puma, I just lost my mind laughing.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This is EXACTLY how I feel about Identity Crisis but I don't go around telling people they're "ridiculous" or "lunatics" if they didn't love it as I did.
> 
> And I don't call criticism of it "unfair" as so many BvS backers do here wrt Snyder because I don't regard ANY response to a piece of art to be wrong or unfair. But the lovers of these films really do. And they ascribe false motives to those that disagree which is incredibly insulting--every bit as insulting and dismissive of those that don't like it as the other way around and I'd say more so. Here, at least, the lovers of those films are more critical of those that hated these films than any movie, TV show, or comic book I've ever seen discussed here.
> 
> I would NEVER want to take the love of a film or any other work of art away from someone that loved those things and I don't much appreciate being told I'm 'WRONG' for loving Identity Crisis. But the people that loved those films act as victims of wrong/dumb people that don't agree with them and they constantly ascribe false motives to those of us that really wanted to love them and just couldn't. It's the most boorish behavior I ever see on these boards. And it's almost always from the defenders of the films and not the other way around. The defenders of the films make it personal and tell you you're a jerk because you don't share their opinions. The ones that authentically hated the films tend instead to criticize the films themselves, which is absolutely fair game.
> 
> And yet we're constantly being told how "unfair" our opinions are. It's gross.


DCEU attackers have tried to make those who don't agree with them feel like they're "wrong" or "crazy" or "have awful taste in movies" or "aren't real fans of Superman/Batman." EVERYTHING you ascribe to the DCEU defenders has been done by the attackers as well. I've seen plenty of the exact same "gross" behavior out of the other side of this argument plenty of times. Often with no provocation whatsoever.

You don't get to play the "victim card" here. BOTH sides have factions who take things too far. If you remember more times when the defenders were the aggressors? Gee, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with the human tendency to remember ourselves and our associates in the most favorable light possible, could it?

----------


## inisideguy

> DCEU attackers have tried to make those who don't agree with them feel like they're "wrong" or "crazy" or "have awful taste in movies" or "aren't real fans of Superman/Batman." EVERYTHING you ascribe to the DCEU defenders has been done by the attackers as well. I've seen plenty of the exact same "gross" behavior out of the other side of this argument plenty of times. Often with no provocation whatsoever.
> 
> You don't get to play the "victim card" here. BOTH sides have factions who take things too far. If you remember more times when the defenders were the aggressors? Gee, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with the human tendency to remember ourselves and our associates in the most favorable light possible, could it?


Here is the thing with these movies. Sometimes and I would argue many times and this goes with any art people will decide well this isn't good because of xyz even if what they like also has xyz. And it doesn't only happen with comic book movies. It happens with art or something that someone created across all genres.  Anyone and I mean anyone who is interested in this phenomenon just has to go back and read Led Zeppelin and black sabbath reviews of their albums back when they were first starting out. All of these critics were saying it was garbage, crap , horrible the worst music possible. 20 years later these dudes  were legends.  Of course the fans of these groups didn't give a rats butts about what the critics or anyone said. They went out and bought their albums by the millions. Someone, somewhere decides ok this is good therefore its good. Or the opposite. Everyone, everywhere has been there.  Some group or movie or anything blows the doors off of something critically or financially and the arguments start. I always think like this. The Sex Pistols are in the rock n roll hall of fame. They had one album and could hardly play their instruments. But they are there and there are groups that played 40 years and sold millions and they aren't.  What people consider great art or great movies is funny.  I seriously don't see a huge difference between the green lantern movie and about 15 other comic book movies. But I will be told over and over there is. When the public or whomever makes up their mind they make up their mind. Probably why so may artist go insane lol. This really struck me with captain America the first avenger. I personally watched this movie and said jeez it sucked. But I could find 100 people just on these boards who will tell me its top 5 cbm of all time. I think they are high. And seriously the general public didn't blow that movie up at all. It did just ok box office. So it didn't get some huge public response on how awesome it was.  But fans of that movie will gush about it all day long. And I think am I watching a different movie? Thats art for ya. Or fandom or whatever we want to call it.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> This is EXACTLY how I feel about Identity Crisis but I don't go around telling people they're "ridiculous" or "lunatics" if they didn't love it as I did.
> 
> And I don't call criticism of it "unfair" as so many BvS backers do here wrt Snyder because I don't regard ANY response to a piece of art to be wrong or unfair. But the lovers of these films really do. And they ascribe false motives to those that disagree which is incredibly insulting--every bit as insulting and dismissive of those that don't like it as the other way around and I'd say more so. Here, at least, the lovers of those films are more critical of those that hated these films than any movie, TV show, or comic book I've ever seen discussed here.
> 
> I would NEVER want to take the love of a film or any other work of art away from someone that loved those things and I don't much appreciate being told I'm 'WRONG' for loving Identity Crisis. But the people that loved those films act as victims of wrong/dumb people that don't agree with them and they constantly ascribe false motives to those of us that really wanted to love them and just couldn't. It's the most boorish behavior I ever see on these boards. And it's almost always from the defenders of the films and not the other way around. The defenders of the films make it personal and tell you you're a jerk because you don't share their opinions. The ones that authentically hated the films tend instead to criticize the films themselves, which is absolutely fair game.
> 
> And yet we're constantly being told how "unfair" our opinions are. It's gross.


Oh come on man, that's incredibly myopic. If you genuinely mean those words, and there's no reason to assume otherwise, then you must only be taking on board the parts of this thread that personally suit you as opposed to the whole thing.

This thread has been derailed God knows how many times by detractors who've either tried to pass off their own personal pet peeves or regurgitated crap from click-bait sites as undisputed fact for some time now. The fact that the mods have had to step in occasionally should tell you everything you need to know in that regard. We've had nothing but the same 'The DCEU is in trouble and doomed to failure simply because I don't personally like it' rhetoric from certain posters over and over again, as if the 25th time will be the charm. If you can't see that there have been certain posters on here with a personal agenda to push at times then I really don't know what to tell you. A personal agenda by the way that's coming across as more and more desperate and unhinged from reality the more that time passes and the film series just gets stronger. Funny thing is, despite your aversion to the movies, I certainly don't class you as one of them.

For the umpteenth time, if you or anyone else on this board doesn't like what WB/DC is doing with these films then that's your prerogative. I personally can't claim to care. As another member has noted above, the mocking that's been taking place recently has been a response to the ridiculous levels of negative hyperbole that this thread, in fact many areas of CBR, have suffered from over the past couple of years rather than any individual preference. You want evidence of that hyperbole? Get out your tin hat, go back 20, 50, or a 100 pages or so on the thread and see for yourself. I can still remember certain posters' dismay when DC and Michelle McLaren parted ways in the early days of WW's development and how stupid does THAT sound now? No specific CBR member has been personally targeted or bullied in any way and describing it as 'gross' is an enormous overstatement.

It's a DCEU specific thread and, hey wouldn't you know it, fans of the series often find themselves obligated to defend it from attackers and therefore do so vigorously. What a surprise! If you don't like that, and this is just a suggestion, then walk away. It's easily done and won't diminish your life in the slightest. You sound like you're trying to play some kind of 'victim card' here and you're better than that. You can't blame people for defending something that they're passionate about. You're always gonna get that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I would honestly love DC to make.a Superman movie for no more than a 150 million, and just under 2 hours long just to see if they can.
> 
> Not every film in this genre need to be $250 million +  3 hour long epics. With the right ethos behind it you could do a top notch MOS follow up with Brainiac as the villain and easily fall within those parameters and it would still feel as grandiose and epic as the first MOS. WW feels like a 200 million dollar movie, but was made for at least 50 million less.


I don't know if a MoS sequel, with Braniac, could be cheap and still look good. 

Now a MoS sequel that had Supes stuck in the Phantom Zone, where there's no yellow sun? I can see that looking good for cheap.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> This is EXACTLY how I feel about Identity Crisis but I don't go around telling people they're "ridiculous" or "lunatics" if they didn't love it as I did.
> 
> And I don't call criticism of it "unfair" as so many BvS backers do here wrt Snyder because I don't regard ANY response to a piece of art to be wrong or unfair. But the lovers of these films really do. And they ascribe false motives to those that disagree which is incredibly insulting--every bit as insulting and dismissive of those that don't like it as the other way around and I'd say more so. Here, at least, the lovers of those films are more critical of those that hated these films than any movie, TV show, or comic book I've ever seen discussed here.
> 
> I would NEVER want to take the love of a film or any other work of art away from someone that loved those things and I don't much appreciate being told I'm 'WRONG' for loving Identity Crisis. But the people that loved those films act as victims of wrong/dumb people that don't agree with them and they constantly ascribe false motives to those of us that really wanted to love them and just couldn't. It's the most boorish behavior I ever see on these boards. And it's almost always from the defenders of the films and not the other way around. The defenders of the films make it personal and tell you you're a jerk because you don't share their opinions. The ones that authentically hated the films tend instead to criticize the films themselves, which is absolutely fair game.
> 
> And yet we're constantly being told how "unfair" our opinions are. It's gross.


I don't ascribe false motives, I know that. I fight back against those that say BS, like:

1. There was no character development 
2. The script is terrible 
3. That Supes, and Bats, became "friends" because their moms have the same name.
4. That Snyder hates Superman/Batman
5. Use preconceived notions of the characters to discredit these different, yet still faithful, iterations
6. Pepole that say BvS fans are stupid, and/or their opinions are invalid.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Hey OP, you need to edit the thread title to, "DCEU argument fest."

----------


## manofsteel1979

> This is EXACTLY how I feel about Identity Crisis but I don't go around telling people they're "ridiculous" or "lunatics" if they didn't love it as I did.
> 
> And I don't call criticism of it "unfair" as so many BvS backers do here wrt Snyder because I don't regard ANY response to a piece of art to be wrong or unfair. But the lovers of these films really do. And they ascribe false motives to those that disagree which is incredibly insulting--every bit as insulting and dismissive of those that don't like it as the other way around and I'd say more so. Here, at least, the lovers of those films are more critical of those that hated these films than any movie, TV show, or comic book I've ever seen discussed here.
> 
> I would NEVER want to take the love of a film or any other work of art away from someone that loved those things and I don't much appreciate being told I'm 'WRONG' for loving Identity Crisis. But the people that loved those films act as victims of wrong/dumb people that don't agree with them and they constantly ascribe false motives to those of us that really wanted to love them and just couldn't. It's the most boorish behavior I ever see on these boards. And it's almost always from the defenders of the films and not the other way around. The defenders of the films make it personal and tell you you're a jerk because you don't share their opinions. The ones that authentically hated the films tend instead to criticize the films themselves, which is absolutely fair game.
> 
> And yet we're constantly being told how "unfair" our opinions are. It's gross.


To be clear, I'm not saying it's unfair or lunacy to dislike anything and state it as such. What I'm railing against is calling something thats a hit a flop by holding it to some ever moving unrealistic standard to bolster their opinion as fact and to imply those who like it are wrong for doing so. That's what I was lampooning in the post prior to the one you quoted.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Hey OP, you need to edit the thread title to, "DCEU argument fest."


Actually, let's not.  :Wink: 

Guys, please keep it civil here.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I think there's a difference between not liking a film and parroting doom and gloom with hyperbolic statements and double standards constantly. That's what was being mocked, not simply the dislike of the film.


Yep. You get it. " I don't like it and Here's why" is different than " I hate this movie, it's a flop even though it isn't, but I'm going to keep saying it is and derailing discussion until those who do like it stop expressing their like of it and agree with me so I can prove the point that everyone hates it and the only way it can be fixed is if WB does exactly what I want".

----------


## Korath

You know, I can perfectly accept that people did not like BvS (I mean, it would be hard to not accept it, 'cause it ain't one guy preaching in the desert that he didn't like the film). What I can't, however, is the idea that Snyder don't like comics and that his films are pretty stupid, because I find both claims to be false. 

Sure, people can not like what was done with MoS and BvS, either because they don't like the depiction of the characters, or because it's simply not what they want when they go to watch a superhero film. That's absolutely okay, everyone expect different things from movies, for instance I won't go to see Pacific Rim 2 when he'll get out with the same expectations that I'll do Valerian and Laureline since the former is the sequel to a popcorn movie I truly love and the latter the adaptation (sort-of) of a B.D. I've read when I was a kid and that I remember quite fondly, even if the two are more or less in the same category of films in my eyes.

But Snyder's superheroes' movies have multiple layers of reading, and can be very interesting to watch only because of the great works that went in the way the film is filmed, the parallels between scenes, the set up/ pay off which I find very well used, etc. Obviously, what can be said in those films won't please everyone, and when it comes to iconic characters like Batman and Superman, it's extremely divisive. But the tone of the films was great to me, there was some tension that I fond lacking in WW for instance (which is a good film. Only not that great to me, an Iron Man 2 to the Avanger's level BvS in my eyes, somehow). Again, it's natural that many didn't like this tone, it's very different from what has become the norm with the MCU (and more largely action movies) but that's what made it a great film for me. 

To sum it up : if someone didn't like the film, he can defend his position, explains it and I'm perfectly fine with it. But I'm not fine with insults to the realisator whose movie spoke to a lot of people (otherwise nobody would still defend it) nor claims that it was a pure loss when it wasn't. It's perfectly normal for someone to not have liked MoS or BvS for a very wide range of reasons. It is another to say that someone who liked those isn't a true fan of those characters or that Snyder is the worst thing this side of Ed Wood.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> You know, I can perfectly accept that people did not like BvS (I mean, it would be hard to not accept it, 'cause it ain't one guy preaching in the desert that he didn't like the film). What I can't, however, is the idea that Snyder don't like comics and that his films are pretty stupid, because I find both claims to be false. 
> 
> Sure, people can not like what was done with MoS and BvS, either because they don't like the depiction of the characters, or because it's simply not what they want when they go to watch a superhero film. That's absolutely okay, everyone expect different things from movies, for instance I won't go to see Pacific Rim 2 when he'll get out with the same expectations that I'll do Valerian and Laureline since the former is the sequel to a popcorn movie I truly love and the latter the adaptation (sort-of) of a B.D. I've read when I was a kid and that I remember quite fondly, even if the two are more or less in the same category of films in my eyes.
> 
> But Snyder's superheroes' movies have multiple layers of reading, and can be very interesting to watch only because of the great works that went in the way the film is filmed, the parallels between scenes, the set up/ pay off which I find very well used, etc. Obviously, what can be said in those films won't please everyone, and when it comes to iconic characters like Batman and Superman, it's extremely divisive. But the tone of the films was great to me, there was some tension that I fond lacking in WW for instance (which is a good film. Only not that great to me, and Iron man 2 to the Avanger's level BvS in my eyes, somehow). Again, it's natural that many didn't like this tone, it's very different from what has become the norm with the MCU (and more largely action movies) but that's what made it a great film for me. 
> 
> To sum it up : if someone didn't like the film, he can defend his position, explains it and I'm perfectly fine with it. But I'm not fine with insults to the realisator whose movie spoke to a lot of people (otherwise nobody would still defend it) nor claims that it was a pure loss when it wasn't. It's perfectly normal for someone to not have liked MoS or BvS for a very wide range of reasons. It is another to say that someone who liked those isn't a true fan of those characters or that Snyder is the worst thing this side of Ed Wood.


Yep. I totally get why someone doesn't like MOS or BvS and I can even share some of the criticisms,but I'll never buy the argument that Snyder hates Superheroes or in particular hates Superman and took Glee in ruining him.He may see Superman in an unorthodox way when compared to most of us Comics geeks, but you can't say he actively hates him. Whenever someone says " Snyder hates Superman! ", I always politely say " can you link some quotes where he says that? ". Four years later I'm still waiting to see these quotes.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think those lame puns were because of Cars finishing first more than downplaying Wonder Woman or DCEU's success.
> 
> But whereas Wonder Woman exceeded expectations yet again, Cars 3 actually underperformed considering its previous estimates. So that "victory" is nothing to write home about.


Cars was expected to take this top spot.  That  is what happens with blockbusters.  Wonder Woman was not expected to have this much staying power.




> As a fan of the previous DCEU films (I haven't seen _Wonder Woman_ yet - expecting to see it as a birthday present in a week or so), that's the one thing that I found to be quite infuriating in a number of posts. I have *zero* problem regarding anybody not liking something I like, but when you insinuate I'm a doofus for liking it...


This is true, but to be fair it goes both ways.  The four or five most devout BvS defenders here who use the whole "misunderstood masterpiece" defense are doing the same thing.  They are claiming that the people who didn't like BvS "didn't understand it" or "didn't pay attention."  The fact is that many understood and didn't like it... and if it didn't keep others' attention maybe it is because they didn't care because they were bored.  I really liked the BvS UC, but it still wasn't great.  I even liked the theatrical cut, but it is hard to objectively defend to other people in the industry. 




> I think there's a difference between not liking a film and parroting doom and gloom with hyperbolic statements and double standards constantly. That's what was being mocked, not simply the dislike of the film.


Yeah the people who showed enjoyment in regards to BvS's rotten tomato score were annoying.  Especially the ones who would make blanket statements as if their opinion was the absolute truth.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> To sum it up : if someone didn't like the film, he can defend his position, explains it and I'm perfectly fine with it. But I'm not fine with insults to the realisator whose movie spoke to a lot of people (otherwise nobody would still defend it) nor claims that it was a pure loss when it wasn't. It's perfectly normal for someone to not have liked MoS or BvS for a very wide range of reasons. It is another to say that someone who liked those isn't a true fan of those characters or that Snyder is the worst thing this side of Ed Wood.


I've said it before.  Some people here act like Snyder stole their wife.  That is how personal some make it.  Others act as if they read a DC comic that destroyed their view on life and they need the DCEU to fail.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I don't ascribe false motives, I know that. I fight back against those that say BS, like:
> 
> 1. There was no character development 
> 2. The script is terrible 
> 3. That Supes, and Bats, became "friends" because their moms have the same name.
> 4. That Snyder hates Superman/Batman
> 5. Use preconceived notions of the characters to discredit these different, yet still faithful, iterations
> 6. Pepole that say BvS fans are stupid, and/or their opinions are invalid.


I wanted to love it badly and didn't. I was deeply disappointed in it as is known by now here but I would argue with anyone that said the above things too except the one about the script which I also felt was terrible. Because thinking a script is terrible is an honest reaction to a script. And almost every time I've posted my opinion of the film I've included the deeply held belief that all reactions to art are subjective and are therefore as "correct" as a reaction to any piece of art could be. I would never say someone that loved BvS was wrong or stupid to love it. It was the most disappointing film, to *me*, of my lifetime because I was so excited about it and fully expected to love it and I saw it and was so disappointed by it at a preview before the critic embargo lifted -- which was why I didn't even reply to the long post in response to mine arguing that people just go with the critics and consider something good or bad because a critic or critics said so. Again, false motives to a genuine reaction. That's what gets my goat in these threads. I've never insulted anyone for feeling differently about the movie than I did. I direct plays for a living. I know that everyone has her/his response to whatever play I may have directed and I know that they're all right. No one can or should have an opinion on a piece of art other than the one they do have.

It's all the "you just want Marvel movies or for DC to be like Marvel" (no I don't), "you just believe what the critics tell you to" (I certainly don't), "you don't like dark things" (I am known as a director for directing dark plays that divide my audience) and on and on. There are 20 reasons people that hated the film are told they were WRONG to do so. That's what I'm against. From either side.

----------


## BatmanJones

> To be clear, I'm not saying it's unfair or lunacy to dislike anything and state it as such. What I'm railing against is calling something thats a hit a flop by holding it to some ever moving unrealistic standard to bolster their opinion as fact and to imply those who like it are wrong for doing so. That's what I was lampooning in the post prior to the one you quoted.


That's fair. That's what I say too, just from the other side. And then I'm told all the reasons that I was too dumb to get it and wanted a dumbed down film. People that know my work would find that the most absurd thing a person could say about me, but it happens about every time I have something to say about the film.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This is true, but to be fair it goes both ways.  The four or five most devout BvS defenders here who use the whole "misunderstood masterpiece" defense are doing the same thing.  They are claiming that the people who didn't like BvS "didn't understand it" or "didn't pay attention."  The fact is that many understood and didn't like it... and if it didn't keep others' attention maybe it is because they didn't care because they were bored.  I really liked the BvS UC, but it still wasn't great.  I even liked the theatrical cut, but it is hard to objectively defend to other people in the industry.


As I stated yesterday, nobody should have their opinions ridiculed. Anybody who states here a contrary opinion without engaging in false propaganda or disparaging someone else's view won't be hearing from me.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I wanted to love it badly and didn't. I was deeply disappointed in it as is known by now here but I would argue with anyone that said the above things too except the one about the script which I also felt was terrible. Because thinking a script is terrible is an honest reaction to a script. And almost every time I've posted my opinion of the film I've included the deeply held belief that all reactions to art are subjective and are therefore as "correct" as a reaction to any piece of art could be. I would never say someone that loved BvS was wrong or stupid to love it. It was the most disappointing film, to *me*, of my lifetime because I was so excited about it and fully expected to love it and I saw it and was so disappointed by it at a preview before the critic embargo lifted -- which was why I didn't even reply to the long post in response to mine arguing that people just go with the critics and consider something good or bad because a critic or critics said so. Again, false motives to a genuine reaction. That's what gets my goat in these threads. I've never insulted anyone for feeling differently about the movie than I did. I direct plays for a living. I know that everyone has her/his response to whatever play I may have directed and I know that they're all right. No one can or should have an opinion on a piece of art other than the one they do have.
> 
> It's all the "you just want Marvel movies or for DC to be like Marvel" (no I don't), "you just believe what the critics tell you to" (I certainly don't), "you don't like dark things" (I am known as a director for directing dark plays that divide my audience) and on and on. There are 20 reasons people that hated the film are told they were WRONG to do so. That's what I'm against. From either side.


If you like _Identity Crisis_, BatJones, then nobody can claim you don't like dark stories.  :Smile:

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yep. I totally get why someone doesn't like MOS or BvS and I can even share some of the criticisms,but I'll never buy the argument that Snyder hates Superheroes or in particular hates Superman and took Glee in ruining him.


That is why I don't guy into conspiracy theories.  Even if you don't like what he did with Superman... it wasn't his intent to make you dislike it!

----------


## BatmanJones

> If you like _Identity Crisis_, BatJones, then nobody can claim you don't like dark stories.


Haha! Truth. And it was my very favorite JLA story ever with JLA traditionally being my favorite title (leaving out the horror shows that are Hitch's JL or Orlando's JLA which have been so disappointing to me). So yeah, no problem with dark stuff.

Most people here may not know the second group of playwrights I'll mention here but I've been known to say "Beckett is our Shakespeare and Sarah Kane is our Sarah Ruhl." Dark stories (or even dark non-stories as we make a lot of non-linear, experimental work that divides and challenges our audience). I make my living off dark things so it's rather hilarious to me when someone tells me I didn't dig BvS because it was "dark" or "serious."

Also please let me know if I ever come close to crossing a line. It's not my intent to be argumentative here; I just like to discuss the movies, whether I liked them or not.

----------


## BatmanJones

> That is why I don't guy into conspiracy theories.  Even if you don't like what he did with Superman... it wasn't his intent to make you dislike it!


Agreed. I feel similarly about the feeling that rottentomatoes is out to get the DCEU. It's like realclearpolitics in that it's just a mathematical formula based on the responses of various critics (as RCP does with political polls) and fans as well. Getting mad at RT because one doesn't agree with the critic score is a matter of shooting the messenger. All RT does is mathematize reviews and audience response. That's the conspiracy theory I find most confounding.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Agreed. I feel similarly about the feeling that rottentomatoes is out to get the DCEU. It's like realclearpolitics in that it's just a mathematical formula based on the responses of various critics (as RCP does with political polls) and fans as well. Getting mad at RT because one doesn't agree with the critic score is a matter of shooting the messenger. All RT does is mathematize reviews and audience response. That's the conspiracy theory I find most confounding.


That conspiracy ignores the fact that WB has a minority stake with RT.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Agreed. I feel similarly about the feeling that rottentomatoes is out to get the DCEU. It's like realclearpolitics in that it's just a mathematical formula based on the responses of various critics (as RCP does with political polls) and fans as well. Getting mad at RT because one doesn't agree with the critic score is a matter of shooting the messenger. All RT does is mathematize reviews and audience response. That's the conspiracy theory I find most confounding.


Despite my problems with the site's rating system, I never understood that conspiracy theory myself regarding RT's administrators.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Haha! Truth. And it was my very favorite JLA story ever with JLA traditionally being my favorite title (leaving out the horror shows that are Hitch's JL or Orlando's JLA which have been so disappointing to me). So yeah, no problem with dark stuff.
> 
> Most people here may not know the second group of playwrights I'll mention here but I've been known to say "Beckett is our Shakespeare and Sarah Kane is our Sarah Ruhl." Dark stories (or even dark non-stories as we make a lot of non-linear, experimental work that divides and challenges our audience). I make my living off dark things so it's rather hilarious to me when someone tells me I didn't dig BvS because it was "dark" or "serious."
> 
> Also please let me know if I ever come close to crossing a line. It's not my intent to be argumentative here; I just like to discuss the movies, whether I liked them or not.


No problems from where I sit regarding your conduct, Mr.. Jones. In fact, more posters should be like you.  :Smile:

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Despite my problems with the site's rating system, I never understood that conspiracy theory myself regarding RT's administrators.


Well, it was just an easy target wasn't it?

I find the level of influence that RT can exert somewhat mind-boggling to be honest. Perhaps it's an American thing. Outside of specialist sites like this that site has little to no influence over the movie going habits of people here in the UK. I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of film fans in this country won't have even heard of it. There are no 'Certified Fresh!' logos on movie posters over here that I'm aware of. Yet some people hang on it's every word. Odd.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Well, it was just an easy target wasn't it?
> 
> I find the level of influence that RT can exert somewhat mind-boggling to be honest. Perhaps it's an American thing. Outside of specialist sites like this that site has little to no influence over the movie going habits of people here in the UK. I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of film fans in this country won't have even heard of it. There are no 'Certified Fresh!' logos on movie posters over here that I'm aware of. Yet some people hang on it's every word. Odd.


Yeah not a lot of my family know what Rotten Tomatoes is, my dad only knows about reviews from the local paper. If they're interesting in a movie then they'll go. 

This year I made it so I won't watch or read reviews until after I see a film, so for it's working great, also made it a point to not watch trailers when possible also going great

----------


## BatmanJones

> That conspiracy ignores the fact that WB has a minority stake with RT.


RT is a polling aggregate. Polling aggregates don't have agendas. They are only reportage of the MATH of various opinions. The ONLY time I've found BvS defenders to be somewhat silly was when they wanted to boycott or petition against what was a polling aggregate because they didn't like the result. Again: it's a case of shooting the messenger.

----------


## BatmanJones

> No problems from where I sit regarding your conduct, Mr.. Jones. In fact, more posters should be like you.


Thanks, pal. That means a lot to me.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> RT is a polling aggregate. Polling aggregates don't have agendas. They are only reportage of the MATH of various opinions. The ONLY time I've found BvS defenders to be somewhat silly was when they wanted to boycott or petition against what was a polling aggregate because they didn't like the result. Again: it's a case of shooting the messenger.


It was definitely the most desperate conspiracy theory that I have seen.  I have seen/heard a fair share of conspiracy theories but at least some of them had points that supported them regardless of whether or not I thought they had any merit.

----------


## Troian

> Well, it was just an easy target wasn't it?
> 
> I find the level of influence that RT can exert somewhat mind-boggling to be honest. Perhaps it's an American thing. Outside of specialist sites like this that site has little to no influence over the movie going habits of people here in the UK. I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of film fans in this country won't have even heard of it. There are no 'Certified Fresh!' logos on movie posters over here that I'm aware of. Yet some people hang on it's every word. Odd.


It probably helps that RT is American.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Food for thought.


The Joker should never be on the Squads radar. He's just a minor threat outside of Gotham in the stories I like.
The armchair director in me would use the SS sequel to explore Apokolips better or fight a Mexican Cartel. There would be new members: Bronze Tiger instead of Flag, Count Vertigo, Duchess and somebody like Black Manta or Boomerang tieing DC movies together.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Well, it was just an easy target wasn't it?
> 
> I find the level of influence that RT can exert somewhat mind-boggling to be honest. Perhaps it's an American thing. Outside of specialist sites like this that site has little to no influence over the movie going habits of people here in the UK. I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of film fans in this country won't have even heard of it. There are no 'Certified Fresh!' logos on movie posters over here that I'm aware of. Yet some people hang on it's every word. Odd.


RT is just an aggregator. I take their ratings to mean "You should probably see this movie" versus you'll enjoy said movie. Lord knows it screwed me over plenty of times. There is also a lack of gray area between bad and good. The reviews rounded up are readily available though and you can read a lot of stuff they link.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

No posts about how we're getting a new JL trailer at ComicCon and the new poster actually features Superman? Which probably means we'll see Supes in the next trailer? 

http://movieweb.com/justice-league-m...c-con-trailer/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> No posts about how we're getting a new JL trailer at ComicCon and the new poster actually features Superman? Which probably means we'll see Supes in the next trailer? 
> 
> http://movieweb.com/justice-league-m...c-con-trailer/


Sweet! 

Although, I remain a bit hesitant about including Superman in the ad campaign for this movie. I just think his return will have more punch if it comes as a total surprise. I mean, look at Wonder Woman's debut in BvS. Yeah, that was cool, but we saw that whole scene coming months in advance in the second trailer. How much cooler would it have been if we went into the movie, we saw Batman about to be vaporized by Doomsday, and then OUT OF NOWHERE Diana drops down and saves his bacon with no forewarning of any kind? 

But we'll see how it goes. Hopefully we'll get confirmation that the "Evil Superman" rumors are just rumors.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> No posts about how we're getting a new JL trailer at ComicCon and the new poster actually features Superman? Which probably means we'll see Supes in the next trailer? 
> 
> http://movieweb.com/justice-league-m...c-con-trailer/


I dig the poster but hope any teaser is just that, a teaser leaving the viewer unsure as to the circumstances of his return. The less we see the better. I'll be furious if they show his return in a trailer.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Inside Warner Bros. Pictures Chief Toby Emmerich’s Vision for the Studio and DC Universe*




> “Wonder Woman,” the comic-book global juggernaut about the do-gooding warrior princess, has lifted spirits around the Warner Bros. lot and reenergized the struggling DC Comics cinematic universe, which many critics and fanboys had written off. “Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice” and “Suicide Squad” may have grossed a combined $1.6 billion globally, but the consensus was they were dark, dour and creatively inert. “Wonder Woman,” with its message of female empowerment, has been a panacea, earning some of the year’s best reviews and inspiring a wave of internet memes.
> 
> “It’s a huge turnaround for [DC],” says Jeff Bock, an analyst with Exhibitor Relations. “There’s been so much hate spewed at them that people were wondering if they had it in them to make a film that people actually liked.”
> 
> The success of “Wonder Woman” comes as the movie studio is in the first months of a leadership shakeup that elevated Toby Emmerich to the position of president and chief content officer and led to the ouster of production chief Greg Silverman. As one of his first priorities after taking the job in December, Emmerich has spent much of his time immersing himself in the world of DC Comics, in an effort to help the unit better compete with its highly successful rival, Disney’s Marvel.
> 
> His learning curve has been steep.
> 
> “I don’t speak comic,” Emmerich acknowledges in his first sit-down interview since assuming his new role, a week after “Wonder Woman” took the box office by storm. “I do feel like I speak motion pictures. I speak for an audience. I look and ask, ‘How does this work for a general audience?’”
> ...


 A lot more in the article

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Sweet! 
> 
> Although, I remain a bit hesitant about including Superman in the ad campaign for this movie. I just think his return will have more punch if it comes as a total surprise. I mean, look at Wonder Woman's debut in BvS. Yeah, that was cool, but we saw that whole scene coming months in advance in the second trailer. How much cooler would it have been if we went into the movie, we saw Batman about to be vaporized by Doomsday, and then OUT OF NOWHERE Diana drops down and saves his bacon with no forewarning of any kind? 
> 
> But we'll see how it goes. Hopefully we'll get confirmation that the "Evil Superman" rumors are just rumors.


You and me will be breathing a huge sigh of relief if we get that info about the stupid "evil supes" bit.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I said it before and I remain adamant, if Superman comes back evil it will be brief and overshadowed by his inevitable heroic return to normal. Steppenwolf resurrecting him would be a decent way to do it.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> No posts about how we're getting a new JL trailer at ComicCon and the new poster actually features Superman? Which probably means we'll see Supes in the next trailer? 
> 
> http://movieweb.com/justice-league-m...c-con-trailer/


That is a fan made poster. That Supes is taken directly from one of the BvS ones. No confirmation about a trailer has been confirmed at all.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> That is a fan made poster. That Supes is taken directly from one of the BvS ones. No confirmation about a trailer has been confirmed at all.


I was just coming in to say this about the poster. Beat me by a few minutes lol 

It was the poster with Batman & Superman facing each other.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> No posts about how we're getting a new JL trailer at ComicCon and the new poster actually features Superman? Which probably means we'll see Supes in the next trailer? 
> 
> http://movieweb.com/justice-league-m...c-con-trailer/


Well, the Superman on that 'exclusive new' JL poster has actually been lifted from here:



Something that the site itself doesn't even seem to realise, which says a lot. This actually looks like a wind-up.

----------


## Korath

Please, let the trailer not spoil any of the important twists. It's always a shame because it takes from the strength of the film itself...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Please, let the trailer not spoil any of the important twists. It's always a shame because it takes from the strength of the film itself...


I think WB have learned their lessons.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I think WB have learned their lessons.


They definitely seemed to learn them for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman.

Suicide Squad? You had no idea who they were actually fighting until you went to see the movie. 

Wonder Woman did an excellent job hiding the reveal of who Ares was. I mean I figured it out a month or two before the movie came out, but I'm a nerd and I was obsessively reading everything that came out about the movie. The average moviegoer went in with no idea what was going to happen. Both times that I've seen the movie, I heard gasps from the audience when the true villain was finally revealed.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think WB have learned their lessons.


The last two movies are all the evidence anyone needs.  That being said... I am still insanely nervous about everything  JL related because I want it to be such a success.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Please, let the trailer not spoil any of the important twists. It's always a shame because it takes from the strength of the film itself...


Although SDCC would be a perfect time to unleash a new JL trailer on the world, I wouldn't take this 'news' at face value. It's taken from a Twitter page that could have been created by anyone and the 'exclusive' new poster is a fake.

I'm not saying that there definitely won't be a 2nd JL trailer at SDCC, one's bound to drop in the reasonably near future and the timing would be perfect, but this information does not come from a reliable source. Several websites seem to have been taken in by it.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Interview with Johns and Berg, heads of DC Films, in Variety:
http://variety.com/2017/film/news/jo...ue-1202471557/




> *Why did audiences embrace Wonder Woman?*
> Berg: Its a fun movie. Its positive and optimistic. The early films may have been too dark in parts.
> 
> Johns: Most of the DC Universe is known as being a hopeful and optimistic place. Its known for characters that are inspirational and aspirational. Anyone who knows and loves the DC Universe knows that a lot of that has to do with its hope and optimism.
> 
> *Suicide Squad and Batman v. Superman made money, but critics hated them. Did you learn anything from the poor response to the films?*
> Berg: There are lessons from every movie. You would be silly not to analyze how a movie was received  what went right and what went wrong on the making of a movie.
> 
> On Suicide Squad, the movie did incredibly well commercially. It didnt work narratively. You had some great casting and some great characterizations, but where the story fell down was on narrative, on plot. We could do better. Batman v. Superman was tonally dark. People didnt respond to that.
> ...


I wonder just what else is on that master board...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Lmao Berg basically trashed SS while the only "negative" for BvS he could muster was it was tonally dark.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Lmao Berg basically trashed SS while the only "negative" for BvS he could muster was it was tonally dark.


Yeah, he didn't say anything negative regarding his own feelings about the latter film.

----------


## Adekis

> Lmao Berg basically trashed SS while the only "negative" for BvS he could muster was it was tonally dark.


"People didn't respond to that".

Yeah. I mean that's about right really. He probably didn't want to say it was bad or that it didn't work because it wasn't and it did. It was just tonally dark and people disliked that about it.

And maybe Superman could use some more lines.

Ironically though, I really, really thought that Wonder Woman needed to be way more in-depth in the way I thought most of _Dawn of Justice_ was. There's a stretch where I think it's phenomenal but then the depth and philosophy gets eaten by the fight at the end. Ha. Oh well, it's certainly still _good_, I just thought it was briefly amazing.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Lmao Berg basically trashed SS


Which was extremely unprofessional and disrespectful to all the people that worked hard and did their best in "Suicide Squad". There are a hundred different ways he could have phrased that without sounding like a dick.

----------


## The Kid

A friend of mine saw WOTPOTA and said it was his favorite blockbuster movie of the year. Really excited to see what Reeves will do with Batman. I'm glad they gave him full creative control over the final product

----------


## Doctor Know

> Lmao Berg basically trashed SS while the only "negative" for BvS he could muster was it was tonally dark.





> Which was extremely unprofessional and disrespectful to all the people that worked hard and did their best in "Suicide Squad". There are a hundred different ways he could have phrased that without sounding like a dick.


Right? 

Maybe he forgot Suicide Squad won WB an Academy Award, and being in the top 10 highest grossing films of 2016.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Right? 
> 
> Maybe he forgot Suicide Squad won WB an Academy Award, and being in the top 10 highest grossing films of 2016.


In fairness, he acknowledged its commercial success and he said nothing negative about Hair and Makeup. 

He criticized the area where the movie did, in fact, suffer: the script and editing. 

Would've been nice if he had mentioned that it was suits like himself who were ultimately responsible for those shortcomings, but he really didn't say anything disrespectful to the people who made the movie.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Right? 
> 
> Maybe he forgot Suicide Squad won WB an Academy Award, and being in the top 10 highest grossing films of 2016.


And funny how he and Johns tried to blame the movies themselves for the bad reception, but didn't say one single word about Warner Bros' last minute meddling.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So Lord and Miller leave Han Solo and apparently the wrap are reporting the met with DC sometime ago a/b directing the Flash. 

Seems SW is having way bigger problems than DC, apparently Han Solo only had a few weeks of filming left.

----------


## The Kid

They should pick up Lord and Miller STAT. Those dudes have made the dumbest movie ideas work

----------


## Thomas Crown

> He criticized the area where the movie did, in fact, suffer: the script and editing. 
> 
> Would've been nice if he had mentioned that it was suits like himself who were ultimately responsible for those shortcomings, but he really didn't say anything disrespectful to the people who made the movie.


If he criticized the script, then he consequently disrespected David Ayer's work. And any problems with the editing is Warner Bros' fault, which he conveniently forgot to point out. Although I think that the theatrical cut of "Batman v Superman" has much more editing problemas than "Suicide Squad".

And ten months and some viewings later, I still don't understand what's the problem with "Suicide Squad" script. Yes, the plot is pretty basic, but it serves well the movie's purpose. And the characterizations are spot-on.

----------


## Rogue Star

> So Lord and Miller leave Han Solo and apparently the wrap are reporting the met with DC sometime ago a/b directing the Flash. 
> 
> Seems SW is having way bigger problems than DC, apparently Han Solo only had a few weeks of filming left.


Good. I hope Star Wars dies an ugly death and its corpse rots at a busy intersection.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Good. I hope Star Wars dies an ugly death and its corpse rots at a busy intersection.


Y do u want to hurt me

----------


## Doctor Know

> So Lord and Miller leave Han Solo and apparently the wrap are reporting the met with DC sometime ago a/b directing the Flash. 
> 
> Seems SW is having way bigger problems than DC, apparently Han Solo only had a few weeks of filming left.


You think Star Wars has problems. The Gambit movie remains in development hell. With Star Trek and James Bond suffering their own problems as tent poles for their studios.

----------


## Pinsir

> So Lord and Miller leave Han Solo and apparently the wrap are reporting the met with DC sometime ago a/b directing the Flash. 
> 
> Seems SW is having way bigger problems than DC, apparently Han Solo only had a few weeks of filming left.


This is far worse than any lamenting aimed at DC films. For someone to abandon a project once it has already begun filming suggests significant the company disdains their talent.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> A friend of mine saw WOTPOTA and said it was his favorite blockbuster movie of the year. Really excited to see what Reeves will do with Batman. I'm glad they gave him full creative control over the final product


That is good to hear.  I was suspecting that it would be the best out of these blockbusters.  Reeves is a great choice for Batman and I think that the directors that WB is lining up for their future movies all seem like good choices for the most part.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Which was extremely unprofessional and disrespectful to all the people that worked hard and did their best in "Suicide Squad". There are a hundred different ways he could have phrased that without sounding like a dick.


Why sugarcoat it when everyone else, including the director, has lamented the film? They all know the plot was trash because it was rushed like hell.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> If he criticized the script, then he consequently disrespected David Ayer's work. And any problems with the editing is Warner Bros' fault, which he conveniently forgot to point out. Although I think that the theatrical cut of "Batman v Superman" has much more editing problemas than "Suicide Squad".
> 
> And ten months and some viewings later, I still don't understand what's the problem with "Suicide Squad" script. Yes, the plot is pretty basic, but it serves well the movie's purpose. *And the characterizations are spot-on.*


Which ones? The extended cut does not improve the theatre version. Ayer has made way better movies, I don't blame HIM. Leto is just meh and WSmith plays WSmith AGAIN.

----------


## Outside_85

> Johns: Most of the DC Universe is known as being a hopeful and optimistic place. It’s known for characters that are inspirational and aspirational. Anyone who knows and loves the DC Universe knows that a lot of that has to do with its hope and optimism.


Reading this made me wonder if Johns is talking about some other DC comics or some from another era, since the era Johns himself has been working in has to my eye been mostly defined by it's absence of hope and optimism.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Reading this made me wonder if Johns is talking about some other DC comics or some from another era, since the era Johns himself has been working in has to my eye been mostly defined by it's absence of hope and optimism.


1. He didn't have power within DC until relatively recently, so a lot of what he wrote prior to Rebirth may have been him just following orders.

2. For a long time, the perception was that dark stories sold, so that's what he wrote. That doesn't mean he didn't want to write more optimistic stories. Just that he and DC didn't think they'd sell.

3. He was talking about a DC Rebirth as far back as Brightest Day.

4. He's an avowed Silver Age fan, so yeah, I'm thinking he likes fun and optimism a whole lot.

----------


## Outside_85

> 1. He didn't have power within DC until relatively recently, so a lot of what he wrote prior to Rebirth may have been him just following orders.
> 
> 2. For a long time, the perception was that dark stories sold, so that's what he wrote. That doesn't mean he didn't want to write more optimistic stories. Just that he and DC didn't think they'd sell.
> 
> 3. He was talking about a DC Rebirth as far back as Brightest Day.
> 
> 4. He's an avowed Silver Age fan, so yeah, I'm thinking he likes fun and optimism a whole lot.


1. He's had power for over 5 years now, and even before he was named CCO he was still DC's best selling writer, to say he had no influence would be very untrue.

2. But he didn't. He wrote a zombie apocalypse where a lot of characters were murdered, he wrote a Crisis where a lot of characters were murdered, and an alternate universe where all the characters were murdering each other, a big old tribute event to celebrate DC's villains and he oversaw the DCU getting turned into the New 52.

3. And Brightest Day was rubbish.

4. Doesn't come across in his writing sadly.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> 1. He's had power for over 5 years now, and even before he was named CCO he was still DC's best selling writer, to say he had no influence would be very untrue.
> 
> 2. But he didn't. He wrote a zombie apocalypse where a lot of characters were murdered, he wrote a Crisis where a lot of characters were murdered, and an alternate universe where all the characters were murdering each other, a big old tribute event to celebrate DC's villains and he oversaw the DCU getting turned into the New 52.
> 
> 3. And Brightest Day was rubbish.
> 
> 4. Doesn't come across in his writing sadly.


But you could also say he brought back JSA, Flash and GL when most people didn't care about them anymore. You piss off fans either way.

----------


## Troian

I don't know why people are freaking out over Gal's salary. She said she was making 300k since like early 2014 and was cast when she was unknown, WW's success was unknown and all that stuff. Obviously she can't just ask for a RDJ level salary at the time.

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't know why people are freaking out over Gal's salary. She said she was making 300k since like early 2014 and was cast when she was unknown, WW's success was unknown and all that stuff. Obviously she can't just ask for a RDJ level salary at the time.


Henry Cavill wasn't a big name either and got paid way more

----------


## Outside_85

> I don't know why people are freaking out over Gal's salary. She said she was making 300k since like early 2014 and was cast when she was unknown, WW's success was unknown and all that stuff. Obviously she can't just ask for a RDJ level salary at the time.


Because they think Caville got 14 million, which I think people should have considered before freaking out.

Digging into it however it appears Gal has gotten the same amount of money as Hemsworth and Evans got when they were tagged for their characters.

----------


## Troian

> Henry Cavill wasn't a big name either and got paid way more


Is there any solid proof on this? 




> Because they think Caville got 14 million, which I think people should have considered before freaking out.
> 
> Digging into it however it appears Gal has gotten the same amount of money as Hemsworth and Evans got when they were tagged for their characters.


14 million? Sources or just rumours? 

I mean, she got paid relatively around the same amount as other actors who weren't that big a name at the time.

----------


## Outside_85

> 14 million? Sources or just rumours? 
> 
> I mean, she got paid relatively around the same amount as other actors who weren't that big a name at the time.


Rumors. And one thats been denied by someone who has some indepth knowledge about contract negotiations for people like this. The 14 million is by most considered to be Caville's pay with all the bonus' added for the movie(s) hes been in doing well financially, while Gal's 300k is simply 'entry level' payment she will received even if the movie is colossal failure at the BO.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

While I doubt Lord & Miller are particularly interested in jumping onto another giant Hollywood blockbuster right after being fired off of one, but considering they already wrote the original treatment for The Flash movie, but ultimately chose to do Han Solo instead, I think the chances of them coming back to DC Films might be pretty good now that Wonder Woman has gotten DC Films back on track.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I don't know why people are freaking out over Gal's salary. She said she was making 300k since like early 2014 and was cast when she was unknown, WW's success was unknown and all that stuff. Obviously she can't just ask for a RDJ level salary at the time.





> Henry Cavill wasn't a big name either and got paid way more





> Because they think Caville got 14 million, which I think people should have considered before freaking out.
> 
> Digging into it however it appears Gal has gotten the same amount of money as Hemsworth and Evans got when they were tagged for their characters.





> Is there any solid proof on this? 
> 
> 
> 
> 14 million? Sources or just rumours? 
> 
> I mean, she got paid relatively around the same amount as other actors who weren't that big a name at the time.





> Rumors. And one thats been denied by someone who has some indepth knowledge about contract negotiations for people like this. The 14 million is by most considered to be Caville's pay with all the bonus' added for the movie(s) hes been in doing well financially, while Gal's 300k is simply 'entry level' payment she will received even if the movie is colossal failure at the BO.



This was fake news. The article has been debunked, Business Insider has amended their article and Cosmopolitan has deleted their article.

http://www.***************.com/gal-g...-salary-2017-6

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertai...-wonder-woman/


Henry Cavil, Gal Gadot and Chris Evans were all paid $300,000 for their debut solo films.

----------


## Outside_85

> This was fake news. The article has been debunked, Business Insider has amended their article and Cosmopolitan has deleted their article.
> 
> http://www.***************.com/gal-g...-salary-2017-6
> 
> http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertai...-wonder-woman/
> 
> 
> Henry Cavil, Gal Gadot and Chris Evans were all paid $300,000 for their debut solo films.


Seems the ruckus came from Elle, who has not amended their article yet. And according to Vanityfair, and their source who appears to be someone who knows both Gal's and Henry's contracts, the 14 million figure is not from a single movie.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/...r-woman-salary

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 1. He's had power for over 5 years now, and even before he was named CCO he was still DC's best selling writer, to say he had no influence would be very untrue.


He was SHARING power for five years with Didio and Lee. And Didio and Lee wanted to do New 52. Sucks to be outnumbered. 




> 2. But he didn't. He wrote a zombie apocalypse where a lot of characters were murdered, he wrote a Crisis where a lot of characters were murdered, and an alternate universe where all the characters were murdering each other, a big old tribute event to celebrate DC's villains and he oversaw the DCU getting turned into the New 52.


First? I said he may have WANTED to do more optimistic stories but the perception at those times was that they won't sell.

Second? Blackest Night still ended with the heroes tapping into the very essence of life and defeating the zombie apocalypse. Several heroes were resurrected. Good triumphed. Pretty optimistic there. And if Johns was talking about a DC Rebirth shortly after that event, leading one to believe that had he gotten his way, we would've begun this optimistic age shortly after that event. The Crisis? Still no evidence that he had any control over the direction of that story, and even if he did? A story in which characters die is not an inherently pessimistic story. Bottom line? Good triumphed in the end. The alternate universe was just that: an alternate universe.  Not reflective of Johns' overall views of how DC should be. Forever Evil? New 52, and we've already established that he wasn't necessarily onboard with the New 52 from the start. 




> 3. And Brightest Day was rubbish.


One man's opinion. And irrelevant to the point I was making. 

The important thing is that he was talking about bringing DC back to its optimistic roots before the New 52 came along and ruined everything. Just because he didn't get his way doesn't mean that he didn't want to go another direction. 




> 4. Doesn't come across in his writing sadly.


Rebirth begs to differ, as does this Wonder Woman movie with which we're all so enamored right now. 

He's perfectly capable of writing optimistic stories and he's finally in a position where he can make "optimism" a default setting. 

"He wrote some dark stories" does not in any way mean that that's all he knows how to write or that those kind of stories are the only stories he enjoys. His past work has no reflection on his goals right now. He's talking "optimism" and he's delivering "optimism." The proof is in the pudding.

----------


## Beantownbrown

VIDEO: Dolph Lundgren Practices Stunts For Aquaman

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> He was SHARING power for five years with Didio and Lee. And Didio and Lee wanted to do New 52. Sucks to be outnumbered. 
> 
> 
> 
> First? I said he may have WANTED to do more optimistic stories but the perception at those times was that they won't sell.
> 
> Second? Blackest Night still ended with the heroes tapping into the very essence of life and defeating the zombie apocalypse. Several heroes were resurrected. Good triumphed. Pretty optimistic there. And if Johns was talking about a DC Rebirth shortly after that event, leading one to believe that had he gotten his way, we would've begun this optimistic age shortly after that event. The Crisis? Still no evidence that he had any control over the direction of that story, and even if he did? A story in which characters die is not an inherently pessimistic story. Bottom line? Good triumphed in the end. The alternate universe was just that: an alternate universe.  Not reflective of Johns' overall views of how DC should be. Forever Evil? New 52, and we've already established that he wasn't necessarily onboard with the New 52 from the start. 
> 
> 
> ...


I still don't get what all his talk of hope and optimism is about, tho. He's talking as if he wasn't aware that BvS was planned, by him and Zack, to be the darkest/lowest point of the DCEU and Trinity. 

He also talks as if hope wasn't one the messages in BvS. 

Black Adam is supposed to be a movie, right? Is that movie gonna be full of "hope and optimism"? If they ever adapt Under the Red Hood, would that movie be "hopeful, and optimistic"?

Also, hope and optimism doesn't always mean the movie is light. An Apokolips movie that focused on Mr. Miracle, and his life escaping and being captured, over and over again, would be a dark movie, but still be about his hope to be free, and him keeping his optimism alive. 

Honestly, Johns is just throwing the phras around.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I still don't get what all his talk of hope and optimism is about, tho. He's talking as if he wasn't aware that BvS was planned, by him and Zack, to be the darkest/lowest point of the DCEU and Trinity.


He had little to no involvement in BvS. Wonder Woman is the first DCEU movie that reflects Johns influence now that he's in power. I think he came in to TRY to salvage SS, but there just wasn't enough time for him to do much. BvS was Snyder, Goyer, and Terrio's baby. 




> He also talks as if hope wasn't one the messages in BvS.


He said nothing of the sort. He just said that it wasn't as well-received as they had hoped and he suspects that the dark tone was at least partially to blame. 




> Black Adam is supposed to be a movie, right? Is that movie gonna be full of "hope and optimism"? If they ever adapt Under the Red Hood, would that movie be "hopeful, and optimistic"?


Nope. Read the interview again. 

Johns: “Wonder Woman” celebrated exactly who the character is, *but looking at it, it’s not like we should change everything to be about hope and optimism.* There’s nothing to change. That’s what these characters are.

He specifically talks about how Wonder Woman was successful because it celebrated everything her character was supposed to be. In Wonder Woman's case "Hopeful and optimistic" are a large part of that. THEN he goes on to say that not every character needs to be that way. The DCU as a whole may be about hope and optimism but that doesn't mean that every character needs to be portrayed that way. 

Black Adam is a villain. He should be portrayed as dark (though he should have at least a few redeeming qualities.) Red Hood's story is dark and should be portrayed that way. Johns has said nothing of turning Black Adam into "Superman in black" or Red Hood into Silver Age Robin. 




> Also, hope and optimism doesn't always mean the movie is light. An Apokolips movie that focused on Mr. Miracle, and his life escaping and being captured, over and over again, would be a dark movie, but still be about his hope to be free, and him keeping his optimism alive.


And Johns has said nothing about portraying an escape from Apokolips as a fun romp. 

As you say, the optimism of a Mr. Miracle story should be about his triumph over a very dark setting. Neither I nor Johns has said otherwise. He just said that the DCU is supposed to be about hope and optimism. Not that every character needs to be light and cheerful. Batman, clearly, isn't regressing back to his Silver Age personality in the JL movie. He's still a dark guy who killed people in the past. Yes, he's supposed to be lighter and with something resembling a sense of humor this time around, but that's hardly the same thing as turning him into a clown in a Bat costume.  




> Honestly, Johns is just throwing the phras around.


He's throwing the phrase around because he wants to make it clear which direction the DCEU is going for those people who were turned off by the first few movies. To tell people that even the "dark" stories are going to at least have a note of optimism to them.

I think you're reading entirely too much into two words that have many different meanings. And I assure you that Geoff Johns is aware of the fact that there's more than one way to show "hope and optimism" than to wave a magic wand and turn the DCEU into Magical Candy Land.

----------


## Sirzechs

I see people still bring up the Infinite Crisis bit even though it's known for a while that there was a hitlist for certain characters whether Johns wanted to kill them or not.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> He had little to no involvement in BvS. Wonder Woman is the first DCEU movie that reflects Johns influence now that he's in power. I think he came in to TRY to salvage SS, but there just wasn't enough time for him to do much. BvS was Snyder, Goyer, and Terrio's baby.


People need to understand that prior to Wonder Woman, Johns was producer in title only due to his title as CCO of DC.  If you don't know what that means then you are one of the people who don't know as much about the film industry as you pretend to.  He had little involvement at all and he had no say over Snyder and Terrio.  BvS was Snyder's baby.  In that article their comments about BvS were limited because they knew that Justice League was coming out with the same director... and they didn't want any comments to be misinterpretted. 




> He said nothing of the sort. He just said that it wasn't as well-received as they had hoped and he suspects that the dark tone was at least partially to blame.


The Snyder defenders are taking things WAY too personally.  He basically just confirmed that BvS was not as well received as they had hoped and the defenders who've been saying otherwise are now getting pissed because it just confirmed what others have been saying.

----------


## Outside_85

> He was SHARING power for five years with Didio and Lee. And Didio and Lee wanted to do New 52. Sucks to be outnumbered.


He is still sharing power, he still has the same amount of power. Didio wanted the New 52, Lee wanted the New 52 AND Geoff Johns ALSO wanted the New 52 otherwise he would have left the company because his name is big enough he'd find employment elsewhere in a hurry.




> First? I said he may have WANTED to do more optimistic stories but the perception at those times was that they won't sell.
> 
> Second? Blackest Night still ended with the heroes tapping into the very essence of life and defeating the zombie apocalypse. Several heroes were resurrected. Good triumphed. Pretty optimistic there. And if Johns was talking about a DC Rebirth shortly after that event, leading one to believe that had he gotten his way, we would've begun this optimistic age shortly after that event.
> 
>  The Crisis? Still no evidence that he had any control over the direction of that story, and even if he did? A story in which characters die is not an inherently pessimistic story. Bottom line? Good triumphed in the end. The alternate universe was just that: an alternate universe.  
> 
> Not reflective of Johns' overall views of how DC should be. Forever Evil? New 52, and we've already established that he wasn't necessarily onboard with the New 52 from the start.


Ok, so you think writers sit down and think 'How am I going to make this story commercially successful?' before they think about whenever it's a good idea to do the story or not?

In the dumbest McGuffin plot twist we have ever seen in a major comicbook event. And all it did was bring back a bunch of character totally at random, a few of which was killed off by the same energies in Brightest Day for no reason at all. Point is, it stops being optimistic when it starts becoming beyond stupid, and Blackest Night did just that by inventing the Life Entity... because Life is now an emotion and Earth is now several billion years older than we thought. And yes Johns talked about a rebirth following Blackest Night and we got Brightest Day which with the very best will in the world was a mishandled mess.

Seriously, the writer of the event itself had no control over it? Who the devil are you trying to fool here? Are you going to say next that Didio and Lee should be praised for the Court of Owls and Watchemen? The writer is the guy who is control of his own story, thats how it works. If this wasn't the case they might as well have sacked Johns and put their own names on the cover. 
Yes, by the skin of its' teeth did the DCU make it through another Crisis, thousands lay dead, most of Metropolis in ruins and the Multiversal structure rocked to it's core, but hey atleast Didio didn't get to also kill Nightwing, right?

He was both the architect and the figurehead use to promote them. Didio is the guy who is just window-dressing, he does nearly nothing in terms of actual comcis, Lee designs how things look Johns is in charge how it behaves.




> One man's opinion. And irrelevant to the point I was making. 
> 
> The important thing is that he was talking about bringing DC back to its optimistic roots before the New 52 came along and ruined everything. Just because he didn't get his way doesn't mean that he didn't want to go another direction.


No it's most people's opinion because BD was certainly not as hyped or as well received as Blackest Night was. Also it just didn't really go anywhere or mean anything to anyone outside of the actual Brightest Day book.

It doesn't matter what he wanted, if he wanted it at all, because he has never put any of these desires onto the pages he's been writing. He wrote one of the best runs of Teen Titans in ages, and it's been in dreadful pit of misery ever since. He wore the book that made Green Lanterns readable, and he rewrote the Book of Oa so they could start killing their opponents and John Stewart has made good use of that ever since. And ofc he thought a good thing you could add to the Flash franchise was murdering some parents.




> Rebirth begs to differ, as does this Wonder Woman movie with which we're all so enamored right now.


Which he only provided input, isn't even credited and otherwise largely written by Allan Heinberg... the poor guy who had to come in and fix JMS' WW run when he departed halfway through Odyssey.




> He's perfectly capable of writing optimistic stories and he's finally in a position where he can make "optimism" a default setting.


And maybe one day we will see some of it on a page somewhere.




> "He wrote some dark stories" does not in any way mean that that's all he knows how to write or that those kind of stories are the only stories he enjoys. His past work has no reflection on his goals right now. He's talking "optimism" and he's delivering "optimism." The proof is in the pudding.


Your pudding is made of air, and like in outer space, it is just not there. Because his past work is what you should be judging him on, not whatever he appear to proclaim during interviews... which in the New 52's case was about taking characters back to their core, resulting in Wonder Woman the Barbarian and Billy Batson the Jerk in his case.

As for Rebirth... thats all down to fans leaping on the slightest hope for the JSA and the Legion making somekind of return... once the 2 members we've seen so far is let out of the insane asylum and the other doesn't get sedated by his minders for shouting at the wall.

So stem thy optimism my friend, because Johns will not be delivering it. He has no history of doing so.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So stem thy optimism my friend, because Johns will not be delivering it. He has no history of doing so.


Nope. I think I'll go right on believing that Johns can, has, and will deliver. Your entire stance here is colored by your well-known vendetta against Johns, so I think I won't be taking your advice, if it's all the same to you.

----------


## Sirzechs

> He is still sharing power, he still has the same amount of power. Didio wanted the New 52, Lee wanted the New 52 AND Geoff Johns ALSO wanted the New 52 otherwise he would have left the company because his name is big enough he'd find employment elsewhere in a hurry.


Lol this is absolutely hilarious for how ridiculous it is. Out of all three Johns is the biggest DC history fanboy particularly the silver age. You think the person that keep Green Lantern largely intact would have wanted to toss it out in favor of fresh history? let's not be disingenuous here. If Lee and Didio wanted New52 and Johns was against it, that still 2 against one, and in a business majority rules.

Lastly what kind of position you thing Johns would get in this age at another company? do you think Marvel was going hire he as President? or you're saying that he should left because of creative differences and start over as a writer ?

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

http://www.thewrap.com/phil-lord-and...tus-exclusive/

Looks even more likely Lord & Miller will be circling back to The Flash.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> http://www.thewrap.com/phil-lord-and...tus-exclusive/
> 
> Looks even more likely Lord & Miller will be circling back to The Flash.


Sigh... I wonder what the odds of Joby Harold's screenplay being something they want to work with.  I don't want another page  one rewrite just because it isn't funny enough for Lord and Miller.  I would have been happy with Lord and Miller earlier.  Now with Zemeckis and Vaughn as options... I'd prefer either of the two over the Lord/Miller duo.

----------


## Robotman

> http://www.thewrap.com/phil-lord-and...tus-exclusive/
> 
> Looks even more likely Lord & Miller will be circling back to The Flash.


This is great news! These guys are fantastic. I was so disappointed when they left the project to work on the Han Solo movie. I was shocked that the DCEU would have the foresight to pick them to helm one of their movies in the first place. Such a great sign. Now all we need is Edgar Wright to direct a DCEU flick.

----------


## Outside_85

> Nope. I think I'll go right on believing that Johns can, has, and will deliver. Your entire stance here is colored by your well-known vendetta against Johns, so I think I won't be taking your advice, if it's all the same to you.


Thats your funeral. But then again Johns is the kind of writer who is largely immune to criticism, people will throw all the stars and their money after his books even when his stories are utter garbage. 




> Lol this is absolutely hilarious for how ridiculous it is. Out of all three Johns is the biggest DC history fanboy particularly the silver age. You think the person that keep Green Lantern largely intact would have wanted to toss it out in favor of fresh history? let's not be disingenuous here. 
> 
> If Lee and Didio wanted New52 and Johns was against it, that still 2 against one, and in a business majority rules.
> 
> Lastly what kind of position you thing Johns would get in this age at another company? do you think Marvel was going hire he as President? or you're saying that he should left because of creative differences and start over as a writer ?


You do realize Johns is the only reason why his Green Lantern run was left largely intact by the effects of Flashpoint when everyone else was bombed back to the stone age? 

You have hopefully considered that Johns might actually have been in on this idea aswell and that not every bad decision over the past 5 years are wholly down to Didio and Lee?

A big one, the same way companies always roll out the red carpet when they get a superstar writer or artist onboard for something. He wouldn't need to start over, his brand it big enough it would float on its own, also creators leave projects over creative differences all the time so why should Johns be any different? 

And seriously, if Johns was so opposed to everything he has largely been the firgurehead for over the past many years were so against everything he felt and wanted to do with and in the DCU, he would have left. But he hasn't, so either he is fine with everything that's going on, or he is 'flexible' enough to simply ignore the parts he doesn't and be happy with what little miracles he might be sneaking under the radar and keep his larger pay-check.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

WB are exerting tighter control on non tentpole films including handling the final cuts. I doubt all the DCEU films will be considered tentpole, films like Batgirl might fall under this régime.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> AND Geoff Johns ALSO wanted the New 52 otherwise he would have left the company


You greatly misunderstand what Johns was actually doing by them. By the time of Nu52 Johns actual job was Chief Creative Officer at DC, which meant collaborating with showrunners, directors and other stakeholders in creating tv shows, cartoons, movies and video games that featured DC Comics properties. His writing job was only secondary to his job as CCO and as a writer he was still largely beholden to Didio, Lee and the various editors at DC. What power he had within comics was largely earned from his success as an A-list writer with Green Lantern and especially Blackest Night. But in the case of Nu52 his influence was largely undercut by Jim Lee/Bob Harras/Dan Didio. So your suggestion that Johns could leave for another similar position at a rival company is ridiculous. Marvel's CCO position was already filled and more importantly Johns position as DC's CCO largely rested on both his success on various DC books and his understanding/enthusiasm for DC's characters. Something he never really developed for Marvel.

It's only with the failure of Convergence/DCYou and the rise of Johns influence across the company that he has parlayed this success to having some control over publishing with Rebirth.





> Seriously, the writer of the event itself had no control over it? Who the devil are you trying to fool here? Are you going to say next that Didio and Lee should be praised for the Court of Owls and Watchemen? The writer is the guy who is control of his own story, thats how it works. If this wasn't the case they might as well have sacked Johns and put their own names on the cover.


So you think JMS, Len Wein and Darwyn Cooke went to DC and proposed the idea of Before Watchmen? Or in the case of Court of Owls and Snyder's various other storylines, it was Scott Snyder himself who decided to order all the Bat-writers to follow his story beats and try to imitate his grimdark writing style? Or that Morrison/Johns/Waid/Rucka decided by themselves to do 52? In all these cases, these decisions were made by editors, publishers and vice  presidents. These things didn't happen in vacuum by themselves. In the case of Court of Owls for example a lot of the editorial synergy was because of Mike Marts and was a further extension of the philosophy since RIP tying all the batbooks to a central storyline or writer. Or in the case of 52, the decision of doing a weekly was pushed by Dan Didio in trying to create a spine to the DCU that could tie together various disparate One Year Later books. An idea that he continued with Countdown aka 52-Done-Right.

----------


## Outside_85

> You greatly misunderstand what Johns was actually doing by them. By the time of Nu52 Johns actual job was Chief Creative Officer at DC, which meant collaborating with showrunners, directors and other stakeholders in creating tv shows, cartoons, movies and video games that featured DC Comics properties. His writing job was only secondary to his job as CCO and as a writer he was still largely beholden to Didio, Lee and the various editors at DC. What power he had within comics was largely earned from his success as an A-list writer with Green Lantern and especially Blackest Night. But in the case of Nu52 his influence was largely undercut by Jim Lee/Bob Harras/Dan Didio. So your suggestion that Johns could leave for another similar position at a rival company is ridiculous. Marvel's CCO position was already filled and more importantly Johns position as DC's CCO largely rested on both his success on various DC books and his understanding/enthusiasm for DC's characters. Something he never really developed for Marvel.
> 
> It's only with the failure of Convergence/DCYou and the rise of Johns influence across the company that he has parlayed this success to having some control over publishing with Rebirth.


By the sound of things you are ignoring that one of his key tasks was also to coordinate the actual comics, not just align TV and movies with them. Specifically he was tasked with making sure the New 52 sort of hung together... thats why all the writers sad down with him and not Bob Harras. Johns is the idea man for the DCU, if they just wanted someone to coordinate the comics with the live action stuff they would just get someone to do that and not waste one of their best writers on something like that.

Also stop claiming I said he could leave DC for a similar position elsewhere, I never said that, what I said was he could go find a job as a writer elsewhere without much downtime, not the same job.





> So you think JMS, Len Wein and Darwyn Cooke went to DC and proposed the idea of Before Watchmen? Or in the case of Court of Owls and Snyder's various other storylines, it was Scott Snyder himself who decided to order all the Bat-writers to follow his story beats and try to imitate his grimdark writing style? Or that Morrison/Johns/Waid/Rucka decided by themselves to do 52? In all these cases, these decisions were made by editors, publishers and vice  presidents. These things didn't happen in vacuum by themselves. In the case of Court of Owls for example a lot of the editorial synergy was because of Mike Marts and was a further extension of the philosophy since RIP tying all the batbooks to a central storyline or writer. Or in the case of 52, the decision of doing a weekly was pushed by Dan Didio in trying to create a spine to the DCU that could tie together various disparate One Year Later books. An idea that he continued with Countdown aka 52-Done-Right.


And none of that excludes Johns from influence.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> By the sound of things you are ignoring that one of his key tasks was also to coordinate the actual comics, not Bob Harras.


No it wasn't. What largely fell under his remit during n52 was Justice League (and briefly Justice League of America), the Green Lantern books, Aquaman and jump starting Swamp Thing/Animal Man. Everything else was outside of his control. For example his ideas and creatives teams for Hawkman and Firestorm were thrown out the window. Anything with the Wildstorm related properties or ex-Marvel writers were controlled by Lee and Harras. Batbooks were controlled by Marts and Snyder. His role as CCO fell outside of the comic offices because of how various VPs and editors jealously guarded these properties.




> Johns is the idea man for the DCU


That was only true during Blackest Night, Brighest Day and then later in Rebirth. For much of n52/Convergence/DCYou he was largely one player amongst many and didn't have the outstanding influence within the comics division like he does now. For example the early direction of n52 was a product of Jim Lee's desire to fit his WS properties into the DCU.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> http://www.thewrap.com/phil-lord-and...tus-exclusive/
> 
> Looks even more likely Lord & Miller will be circling back to The Flash.


Come crawling back after star wars didn't work out huh?
I say forget them 
they left and the project got pushed back even further, don't reward them after they messed up their good deal with disney

----------


## The Kid

Screw that I hope they tap Lord and Miller. Disney getting into creative arguments with their directors happens often. These guys make the dumbest ideas work so I'm down

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> And seriously, if Johns was so opposed to everything he has largely been the firgurehead for over the past many years were so against everything he felt and wanted to do with and in the DCU, he would have left. But he hasn't, so either he is fine with everything that's going on, or he is 'flexible' enough to simply ignore the parts he doesn't and be happy with what little miracles he might be sneaking under the radar and keep his larger pay-check.


There's also a 3rd option. 

"I know this is going to fail, so I'll express my disapproval but be a team player so long as my most important things are unaffected, then once it does I'll get to come in and do what I want"

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> Screw that I hope they tap Lord and Miller. Disney getting into creative arguments with their directors happens often. These guys make the dumbest ideas work so I'm down


It's not Disney. It's Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm's Story Group who were screwed by Abrams hijacking TFA that they feel so strongly about the need to stick to the script.

----------


## Pinsir

> Come crawling back after star wars didn't work out huh?
> I say forget them 
> they left and the project got pushed back even further, don't reward them after they messed up their good deal with disney


Why? They helped sabotage a major film of their competitor! WB should honour them as heroes!

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Aquaman Adds Kaan Guldur As 9-Year-Old Arthur Curry*




> Last month, Otis Jai Dhanji joined the cast of the upcoming James Wan-directed movie as a 13-year-old version of the title character. Now, The Aquaman Shrine has revealed that Kaan Guldur has boarded the standalone DC Extended Universe movie as an even younger version of Arthur, playing him at the age of 9.

----------


## Outside_85

> There's also a 3rd option. 
> 
> "I know this is going to fail, so I'll express my disapproval but be a team player so long as my most important things are unaffected, then once it does I'll get to come in and do what I want"


In this version he either has the patience of a spider waiting for a meal... or is not that terribly bright.

"I aint moving! This glacier is gonna have to go somewhere else!"




> No it wasn't. What largely fell under his remit during n52 was Justice League (and briefly Justice League of America), the Green Lantern books, Aquaman and jump starting Swamp Thing/Animal Man. Everything else was outside of his control. For example his ideas and creatives teams for Hawkman and Firestorm were thrown out the window. Anything with the Wildstorm related properties or ex-Marvel writers were controlled by Lee and Harras. Batbooks were controlled by Marts and Snyder. His role as CCO fell outside of the comic offices because of how various VPs and editors jealously guarded these properties.


And I assume you have contemporary evidence of this and not just someone desperately covering his own tracks?

You seem to ascribe the likes of Harras a lot more power than he actually has. He is just the guy who hires people, Johns is the guy actually directing them.




> That was only true during Blackest Night, Brighest Day and then later in Rebirth. For much of n52/Convergence/DCYou he was largely one player amongst many and didn't have the outstanding influence within the comics division like he does now. For example the early direction of n52 was a product of Jim Lee's desire to fit his WS properties into the DCU.


And there you go, deflecting the blame that is Johns onto others, again.

You are going to have to admit that the New 52 was also Johns responsibility, everything else is utter nonsense. And that is the end of it. You don't blame the rest of the crew of a sunken ship and pardon the captain. He was as much at fault as everyone else.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Why? They helped sabotage a major film of their competitor! WB should honour them as heroes!


Don't really see why it would matter anyway if it's in the interest of both parties, L&M need work and WB struggling to get Flash off the ground. It's similar to Patty and WW, she wanted to do WW for years yet she wasn't their first choice but WB went her when the then dir left and she accepted, doesn't matter what happened in the past.

----------


## Frontier

Michael Beach (_Third Watch_) has joined the cast as Jesse Kane, "a hijacker who has a fateful interaction with Aquaman in the film.

I'm guessing he's Black Manta's Dad, who Aquaman kills. 

Also seems like we might get an official name for Manta.

----------


## Robotman

> Michael Beach (_Third Watch_) has joined the cast as Jesse Kane, "a hijacker who has a fateful interaction with Aquaman in the film.
> 
> I'm guessing he's Black Manta's Dad, who Aquaman kills. 
> 
> Also seems like we might get an official name for Manta.


I really don't like that addition to Aquaman's mythos. Killing Manta's dad just seems kinda cliche. Every character has to be motivated by a murdered parent. Even the villains are being turned into Batman.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I really don't like that addition to Aquaman's mythos. Killing Manta's dad just seems kinda cliche. Every character has to be motivated by a murdered parent. Even the villains are being turned into Batman.


Totally agree. Stop with the dead parents.

----------


## El_Gato

https://moviepilot.com/p/wonder-woma...-all-missed-it

Do you guys think they'll introduce more mythology into the DCEU, other than Greek? Apparently Chief is a god himself!!

https://moviepilot.com/p/wonder-woma...-all-missed-it

----------


## Frontier

> Totally agree. Stop with the dead parents.


At least it's not the hero this time (though Tom Curry is probably going to be dead)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Any fellow brits on here and want to go see Wonder Woman again, Odeon have 50% off booked tickets online for the rest of June, simply put the promo code JUNE50. I checked and it works! If Eid falls on Sunday I'll definitely drag my entire family!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I really don't like that addition to Aquaman's mythos. Killing Manta's dad just seems kinda cliche. Every character has to be motivated by a murdered parent. Even the villains are being turned into Batman.


Depends on what the do in the film, it might not motivate Manta or might motivate Manta in the un-cliche way similar to Tom Riddle in the HP series who couldn't believe his Mom was a real witch as she died and refused to take his muggle fathers heritage.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> You seem to ascribe the likes of Harras a lot more power than he actually has. He is just the guy who hires people, Johns is the guy actually directing them.


That is wrong. The only person we know had any direction or control over Nu52 other than individuals editors was either Dan Didio and Jim Lee, the guy largely seen as been responsible for Harras's elevation to EiC of DC and who was seen as having Harras's back. There was largely no other top down creative control asserted at the editorial level other than pushing the Wildstorm stuff and nothing like what you had for Brightest Day or Rebirth where you had storylines that were being parceled out across editorial sections to advance a larger and bigger serial story. The best that the Nu52 editorial scene can be described is being chaotic with individuals editors, writers and artists coming and leaving due to various and rather arbitrary reasons. In other words there was no direction by Johns. He had control though dubious as it is of Justice League/Aquaman/"Lantern books" and assembling the creative teams for AM/ST (likely during the tail of Brightest Day), but it's preposterous to say he had any control over Lobdell's Superman/Red Hood or Nocienti on Catwoman/Green Arrow or Lieleld over Grifter/Deathstroke/Hawkman/Hawk&Dove or hiring any of them at the expense of his friends.



> You are going to have to admit that the New 52 was also Johns responsibility, everything else is utter nonsense.


Not really. Johns is not part of DC editorial and they didn't have to answer to him. His CCO position like Quesada's has no power over the editorial/creative direction of the comics. What power he has is what the individual editors allow or give him. And for Nu52 largely his part was restricted to being DC's top writer and the guy who writes the top Lantern/Justice League/Aquaman books and not as one of the people sitting at the table. It's only with Rebirth (and Brighest Day) we see him receiving greater creative control from editoril over individual books that he had no relation to. But in essence his influence is largely based on DC editorial's performance. Their sales success with BN persuaded them to give him a lot of mileage for BD and their failure with Convergence/DCYou persuaded them to invite him back in. But for Nu52 they had no motive to listen to him when the reboot was printing gold and when their nominal bosses were trying to reassert their control and when Johns really wasn't part of that power structure.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Come crawling back after star wars didn't work out huh?
> I say forget them 
> they left and the project got pushed back even further, don't reward them after they messed up their good deal with disney





> Why? They helped sabotage a major film of their competitor! WB should honour them as heroes!


WB be like...

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

I got to agree with Bogotazo. The dead parent cliche is extremely overused in comics. Aquaman doesn't need it, he's a King who looks after his people. That's all the motivation he really needs.

----------


## Agent Z

> Michael Beach (_Third Watch_) has joined the cast as Jesse Kane, "a hijacker who has a fateful interaction with Aquaman in the film.
> 
> I'm guessing he's Black Manta's Dad, who Aquaman kills. 
> 
> Also seems like we might get an official name for Manta.


Didn't he voice Mr Terrific in JLU?

----------


## Agent Z

> https://moviepilot.com/p/wonder-woma...-all-missed-it
> 
> Do you guys think they'll introduce more mythology into the DCEU, other than Greek? Apparently Chief is a god himself!!
> 
> https://moviepilot.com/p/wonder-woma...-all-missed-it


Sounds like a cool idea but I'd rather have more examples of Native American representation than just a villain and a magical guy

----------


## JediKage

Or an arrow guy...granted cant complain about a magical presence in a Wonder Woman movie.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Mamoa apparently has finished shooting his additional photography. Yeah those "extensive reshoots" are getting more BS by the day.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Mamoa apparently has finished shooting his additional photography. Yeah those "extensive reshoots" are getting more BS by the day.


In fairness, it's possible they just didn't have much extra stuff for him. Doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have more extensive work to do with other characters. Diana,  particularly, may be getting a lot more stuff because she couldn't be hotter right now.

----------


## MadFacedKid

The fact they casted a 9 and a teenage actor for the role of a younger Arthur Curry expect an origin to be told.

Possibly MOS styled. But an origin nonetheless. Which is a good thing.

----------


## MadFacedKid

Also Arthur's dad died from a heart attack. Which is a natural cause for death. Even if it was provoked it's likely that he would of had a heart related problem that was lethal sometime or later. 

Arthur takes that out on Manta and his father by killing his father on accident but still.. nothing about that sounds cliche unless you generalize it to the fact that dead parents are involved which is being extremely vague and almost reaching.

----------


## Confuzzled

> In fairness, it's possible they just didn't have much extra stuff for him. Doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have more extensive work to do with other characters. Diana,  particularly, may be getting a lot more stuff because she couldn't be hotter right now.


Yeah, Diana and Kal-El were rumored to be the focus of most of the reshoots.




> The fact they casted a 9 and a teenage actor for the role of a younger Arthur Curry expect an origin to be told.
> 
> Possibly MOS styled. But an origin nonetheless. Which is a good thing.


Wonder Woman had a child and teen version too. It could be similar to something like _Throne of Atlantis_, where the younger Arthurs have encounters with Atlanna.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> In fairness, it's possible they just didn't have much extra stuff for him. Doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have more extensive work to do with other characters. Diana,  particularly, may be getting a lot more stuff because she couldn't be hotter right now.


But this is the Justice League, kind of dumb to shoehorn more Diana w/o the league. Emmerich said these were basically minor, the fact Jason is done already is lending more to that, I'd rather believe the facts and not unconfirmed rumours tbh.

----------


## ironman2978

> Didn't he voice Mr Terrific in JLU?


He also voiced Devil Ray, who was basically  Black Manta in everything but name, which made it easier to kill him in "Dead Reckoning". So technically Black Manta is Black Manta's father.

----------


## Frontier

> He also voiced Devil Ray, who was basically  Black Manta in everything but name, which made it easier to kill him in "Dead Reckoning". So technically Black Manta is Black Manta's father.


Oh wow, I completely forgot about that. Fitting  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Ascended

> I got to agree with Bogotazo. The dead parent cliche is extremely overused in comics. Aquaman doesn't need it, he's a King who looks after his people. That's all the motivation he really needs.


When Johns took over Aquaman....man, I was so excited for his Black Manta! I had just discovered how great the character could be while watching Young Justice with my son and Johns does decent work when he's not writing Superman. I was looking forward to some sort of Johns-ified Black Manta that took the best parts of the concept and wrapped it around the history in a new, interesting way that really dug into the core themes of the character and his role in the mythos. I was even confident that Johns could somehow make the racism thing (he's BLACK Manta for a reason!) work out.

What I got was more "Woe is me, my mommy and/or daddy are DDEEEAAAADDDD and I'll let that define every moment of my life from here on out!!!!!" 

That was one of the major stones that crushed my interest and excitement in Johns' work.

----------


## Robotman

> When Johns took over Aquaman....man, I was so excited for his Black Manta! I had just discovered how great the character could be while watching Young Justice with my son and Johns does decent work when he's not writing Superman. I was looking forward to some sort of Johns-ified Black Manta that took the best parts of the concept and wrapped it around the history in a new, interesting way that really dug into the core themes of the character and his role in the mythos. I was even confident that Johns could somehow make the racism thing (he's BLACK Manta for a reason!) work out.
> 
> What I got was more "Woe is me, my mommy and/or daddy are DDEEEAAAADDDD and I'll let that define every moment of my life from here on out!!!!!" 
> 
> That was one of the major stones that crushed my interest and excitement in Johns' work.


I have to agree. Johns has done some amazing work with revitalizing classic characters and their origins. Black Adam, Sinestro, the entire JSA. But I think he dropped the ball with Black Manta. He just gave him the overused "getting revenge because you killed my dad" schtick. I wish he would have used aspects of the Young Justice Black Manta. He was kinda of a villainous version of Black Panther. He even had African masks and artifacts in his submarine. Knowing that they're using the New 52 origin for him in the film kind of saps all my excitement for the character.

----------


## Frontier

> When Johns took over Aquaman....man, I was so excited for his Black Manta! I had just discovered how great the character could be while watching Young Justice with my son and Johns does decent work when he's not writing Superman. I was looking forward to some sort of Johns-ified Black Manta that took the best parts of the concept and wrapped it around the history in a new, interesting way that really dug into the core themes of the character and his role in the mythos. I was even confident that Johns could somehow make the racism thing (he's BLACK Manta for a reason!) work out.
> 
> What I got was more "Woe is me, my mommy and/or daddy are DDEEEAAAADDDD and I'll let that define every moment of my life from here on out!!!!!" 
> 
> That was one of the major stones that crushed my interest and excitement in Johns' work.


I think, in a way, he did do that, if just not to your satisfaction...

But then again, I think Manta's origin and motivation is less important then how he's portrayed and how he bounces off Aquaman, which I think Johns did a good job with.

But that's juts me.

----------


## Ascended

> I think, in a way, he did do that, if just not to your satisfaction...


No, I agree that the dynamic being used right now is always infinitely more important than the backstory that ignited it. Totally. 

And the Manta we have in the comics is good. Well, he's good enough. I like what they've been doing with him lately. I trade wait so Im behind, but the whole NEMO thing? Stupid name aside it's been good. 

So, what am I missing from Johns' take on Manta? (not being a dick, actually asking) Way I've seen it, the YJ version was basically Darth Vader underwater; a guy with a philosophical demeanor and vast resources who's feud with Aquaman was personal but still secondary to other concerns, and who deeply loved his son. Johns' Manta was a cold-blooded sociopath, a loner, who's feud with Aquaman was his primary motivator and point of focus, who couldn't feel anything but hate and, at best, mild contempt for life. What am I overlooking here?

----------


## golgi



----------


## Rogue Star

Didn't expect to see that gif as soon as the page loaded; it was quite a surprise.  o.o;

----------


## The Kid

Spider-Man: Homecoming is getting raved right now. I think Ragnorak is good because of Waititi so all we need is for Justice League to deliver and we're probably looking at the most consistent and best year for superhero movies... ever

----------


## Stanlos

I have a lot of trepidation about JUSTICE LEAGUE.  I really hope it is good.  The goodwill generated by Wonder Woman could be annihilated if it is not.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Spider-Man: Homecoming is getting raved right now. I think Ragnorak is good because of Waititi so all we need is for Justice League to deliver and we're probably looking at the most consistent and best year for superhero movies... ever


Hmmm, not going to doubt the Marvel machine but these reactions are pretty tame really. They're sound more surprised than anything else and they're  stating that this offering is superior to the previous 3 outings which honestly isn't too high a praise. Still expect it to get 85% minimum at RT though.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Spider-Man: Homecoming is getting raved right now. I think Ragnorak is good because of Waititi so all we need is for Justice League to deliver and we're probably looking at the most consistent and best year for superhero movies... ever


I wonder if its Spider-Man movie good or actually good, those two are very different things for me.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Mark Hughes is now estimating Wonder Woman finishes around $730 million.
It should be over $650 million this weekend and right around $700 million by the time Spiderman releases.

Absolutely extraordinary for an origin film. 

On another note, my MCU fatigue is very real. My Spiderman fatigue is even more real. Right now I am on the fence about seeing Spidey in theaters. I've been waiting to rent the latest MCU movies, exception Guardians 2. 

The MCU films will get great reviews no matter what. They're established 15 films in, they follow basic formulas, continuity with the actors, plus Disney wines and dines the big name critics during premieres. If you're a critic, why would you possibly end a relationship like that?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Hmmm, not going to doubt the Marvel machine but these reactions are pretty tame really. They're sound more surprised than anything else and they're  stating that this offering is superior to the previous 3 outings which honestly isn't too high a praise. Still expect it to get 85% minimum at RT though.


Yeah the reactions ain't as overwhelming as say Apes where people are calling that a good movie period. But hey after the last 3 I'd take a decent Spidey film.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Oh would you look at that Henry is off on NZ filming MI6...But "extensive 3 month long reshoots that are gonna change the film completely". Like I keep saying more BS by the day. 

But hey let's keep believing unsubstantiated rumours! The only thing Whedon has changed is kicked the not so great JXL and got a composer who he has worked for thus making the post less strenuous.

----------


## Agent Z

Wonder Woman Actor Says Chief Is Actually a Demi-God

http://io9.gizmodo.com/wonder-woman-...god-1796389983

----------


## Doctor Know

WW joins the club of being a CBMs that grosses $300 million domestically. TDK, TDKRises, BvS, and SS are also in attendance.
MOS is in spitting distance of $300 million domestic at $291 million.

From competing studios:

Deadpool is the only $300+ million from Fox. The closest runner ups being X-Men DOFP at $234 million and Logan at $226 million


Spider-Man 1, 2 and 3 were all $300+ million. TASM1 topped out at $262 million. 


IM 1-3, Cap CACW, Avengers 1 and 2, GOTG 1 and 2 are all $300+ million. The closest to $300 million for the MCU is Cap TWS at $260 million and Dr Strange at $232 million.


Come on JL. Give us $500 million domestic.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Oh would you look at that Henry is off on NZ filming MI6...But "extensive 3 month long reshoots that are gonna change the film completely". Like I keep saying more BS by the day. 
> 
> But hey let's keep believing unsubstantiated rumours! The only thing Whedon has changed is kicked the not so great JXL and got a composer who he has worked for thus making the post less strenuous.


Nah m8 it's quite obvious that Mamoa and Cavill have been fired from the DCEU and Whedon's recasting the entire Justice League with the cast of Firefly and reshooting it from the ground up as we speak! 

The DCEU is doomed, man, doomed! :P

----------


## Confuzzled

Rumor: WB Plans to Release 3-4 DCEU Films Per Year

Don't know how true this is as the source is Umberto Gonzalez (but he may have been correct about a certain Spider-Man: Homecoming rumor he leaked). He teases the new slate being announced at the DCEU's SDCC presentation.

----------


## The Kid

> Rumor: WB Plans to Release 3-4 DCEU Films Per Year
> 
> Don't know how true this is as the source is Umberto Gonzalez (but he may have been correct about a certain Spider-Man: Homecoming rumor he leaked). He teases the new slate being announced at the DCEU's SDCC presentation.


Hopefully not 4 movies.2 or 3 is enough

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Hopefully not 4 movies.2 or 3 is enough


Depends I doubt they're all gonna be tentpole films, one or two of these may fall under WB new strict regime.

----------


## Manda-Panda

> Nah m8 it's quite obvious that Mamoa and Cavill have been fired from the DCEU and Whedon's recasting the entire Justice League with the cast of Firefly and reshooting it from the ground up as we speak! 
> 
> The DCEU is doomed, man, doomed! :P


I mean... If it finally gets us Fillion as Hal Jordan...

----------


## Robotman

> Rumor: WB Plans to Release 3-4 DCEU Films Per Year
> 
> Don't know how true this is as the source is Umberto Gonzalez (but he may have been correct about a certain Spider-Man: Homecoming rumor he leaked). He teases the new slate being announced at the DCEU's SDCC presentation.


maybe Johns convinced the WB suits that they need to strike while the iron is hot. make as many superhero movies as they can while this craze continues. i dont think people will get burnt out on superhero flicks any time soon but they may as well start pumping them out now just in case the bubble bursts in a few years.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Rumor: WB Plans to Release 3-4 DCEU Films Per Year
> 
> Don't know how true this is as the source is Umberto Gonzalez (but he may have been correct about a certain Spider-Man: Homecoming rumor he leaked). He teases the new slate being announced at the DCEU's SDCC presentation.


Three sounds about right. Something in the spring. something for summer, and something for fall/winter. 
We had two last year and will have two this year. One more doesn't seem like overload. Four sounds
like it would be too much of a saturation and they would all suffer.

----------


## Vanguard-01

3-4 films sounds good to me if they're all good movies. 

I wonder if this means that a lot of these are going to be smaller, more obscure movies like the Nightwing and Batgirl movies? Maybe we've got some new movies along these lines coming up?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Wonder Woman Actor Says Chief Is Actually a Demi-God
> 
> http://io9.gizmodo.com/wonder-woman-...god-1796389983


Cool! 

If so, then they may be able to justify bringing him into Diana's modern stories. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that demigods are either immortal or extremely long-lived, after all. Chief could totally be alive in the modern world if they want to use him there.

----------


## El_Gato

3 movies a year sounds good to me!! In fact its a dream come true and makes up for the fact we are only getting one next year!

One in March, another in June/July, and the third in November! Perfect formula!

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> 3 movies a year sounds good to me!! In fact its a dream come true and makes up for the fact we are only getting one next year!
> 
> One in March, another in June/July, and the third in November! Perfect formula!


Agree. Perfect cadence. On mid tier character (Green Arrow, Shazam, Cyborg, Nightwing), one big character in an origin or sequel (Supes, Bats, WW, AM, etc.) and one team movie (JL, Teen Titans, SS, World's Finest, Brave and Bold, JL Dark).

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Nah m8 it's quite obvious that Mamoa and Cavill have been fired from the DCEU and Whedon's recasting the entire Justice League with the cast of Firefly and reshooting it from the ground up as we speak! 
> 
> The DCEU is doomed, man, doomed! :P


Make it the cast of Buffy and I'll watch it 10 times in theatres and buy 5 BluRays.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> 3-4 films sounds good to me if they're all good movies. 
> 
> I wonder if this means that a lot of these are going to be smaller, more obscure movies like the Nightwing and Batgirl movies? Maybe we've got some new movies along these lines coming up?


I'd be all in for lower budgets and more character driven stuff. Not every superhero needs the same by the numbers disaster porn 3rd act. Avengers and JL are epic because their books are, too. Otherwise big MEH from me.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'd be all in for lower budgets and more character driven stuff. Not every superhero needs the same by the numbers disaster porn 3rd act. Avengers and JL are epic because their books are, too. Otherwise big MEH from me.


Yeah. I mean smaller budget solo hero movies have less inherent risk. They don't need to make a billion dollars to be successful. They're just a good way to introduce the audience to all these great characters and you never know what might catch on.

If I'm an exec at WB, I'm drawing up a big chart of DC heroes and I'm bringing in screenwriters and telling them "Look at this chart. Pick a hero. Do some research on him/her and then come back with a pitch for a movie. If we like it, we're doing it."

----------


## godisawesome

Nightwing and Batgirl strike me as movies you could really save on the budget by exchanging massive spectacle battles for John-Wick-esque action scenes where you shell out the cash for the stunt team and coordinators for fights.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Latest from Scott Mendelson at Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#5c62c8ee28ee

Basically, Wonder Woman's run is borderline unreal. Him and Mark Hughes and are now saying this movie will make at least $730 million and will have the potential to pass Suicide Squad's numbers (remember, SS was a hugely financial success at $745 million WITHOUT China).

And to think many of us were hoping for north of $550 million...

----------


## nightbird

> Nightwing and Batgirl strike me as movies you could really save on the budget by exchanging massive spectacle battles for John-Wick-esque action scenes where you shell out the cash for the stunt team and coordinators for fights.


Imagine whole movie with BvS warehouse style action...

----------


## Sutekh

> If I'm an exec at WB, I'm drawing up a big chart of DC heroes and I'm bringing in screenwriters and telling them "Look at this chart. Pick a hero. Do some research on him/her and then come back with a pitch for a movie. If we like it, we're doing it."


And that's what needs to happen, IMO, and not just with movies, but with comics as well.  Not 'We need a title with Character X, I'm assigning Bob here, who is a famous writer of something completely different in tone and theme, and knows *nothing* about Character X, to write something that is guaranteed to fail!'

I think the genre would really benefit from choosing creative teams that are burning with great ideas for a character or team, rather than hired guns who, at best, aren't really a great fit, and at worst, actively loathe the genre and are seething with resentment and a desire to 'deconstruct' it to 'prove' that their own less-successful ideas and characters are somehow better than big name franchise characters like Superman or Batman.  Instead of pumping out a Justice League book (or movie) just to have it out there, whether or not there's a great idea for it, or a writer burning to take it on, seems counter productive, to me, as it, IMO, lessens the property when lackluster or just plain bad runs or showings occur, that really only existed because 'we can't go a month / year / whatever without pushing Character X!'

And this is not just a jab at DC.  Marvel's every bit as guilty of it, pumping out lackluster Avengers or X-Men books at times, just to have the book out there, and, IMO, occasionally doing the same with movies.  We've had a Thor 1, we *must* have a Thor 2, even if we don't really have a great story in mind, and that's going to show, and it will land with a resounding plonk...

----------


## Rogue Star

Three movies, fine. I thought they agreed to do that long ago anyway. But anyway, four is just ridiculous.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Imagine whole movie with BvS warehouse style action...


You'd get tired of the movie at the age of 30. Its my hallmark... beyond 30 you want character moments, too. I want the WW and Aquadude sequels epic but it fits those characters while let's say Green Arrow and The Question, Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Gotham City Sirens could be on-a-budget-movies.

----------


## AcesX1X

for those who are interested, orm (patrick wilson) was spotted in-training on australia's gold coast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...old-Coast.html

----------


## Vanguard-01

Can't believe I forgot to post this here. I posted it on the Wonder Woman forum about a week ago, but never remembered to post it here too!  :Embarrassment: 

Great tribute to this great movie!

----------


## nightbird

> You'd get tired of the movie at the age of 30. Its my hallmark... beyond 30 you want character moments, too. I want the WW and Aquadude sequels epic but it fits those characters while let's say Green Arrow and The Question, Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Gotham City Sirens could be on-a-budget-movies.


I want movie with street level characters like Nightwing and Batgirl throughout the whole movie to have tight action scenes, but I didn't say in expense of character moments. I talked specifically only about action. Good choreographed fights for me personally more exciting than GCI super powers.

----------


## Troian

> *Basically, Wonder Woman's run is borderline unreal.*Him and Mark Hughes and are now saying this movie will make at least $730 million and will have the potential to pass Suicide Squad's numbers (remember, SS was a hugely financial success at $745 million WITHOUT China).
> 
> And to think many of us were hoping for north of $550 million...


I guess many underestimated the film but part of the "unreal" success was also because of good timing.

She brought a fresh new preslective, a female one and she is very iconic. Plus it was because of all the negative reviews and franchise fatigue that allowed Diana to shine. If this movie was clustered when Transformers, Pirates and the like were in their prime or many of the movies she had competition against had good reviews and solid fanbases both domestically and foreign, this movie would have dropped closer to your average superhero flick.  

I hear some people say it should have been released later to maximize profits, but it already has thanks to good timing and box office fatigue from its competition. I'm pretty glad they chose to release it in June. Now, will the sequel see this kind of luck? Probably not but hey at least now it's giving some people some hope for the Dceu.  :Smile:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Hopefully not 4 movies.2 or 3 is enough


I wouldn't mind 3-4 if some of the movies are one-shots, and/or indie-ish/arthouse style.

Like, if I was WB, I'd try to recruit Alex Garland, Josh Trank, Trey Shults, Barry Jenkins, or someone of that kind of nature for a lower budget, and character driven Cyborg movie.

They need to have movies that cater to the GA, and movies that take risks, or go with more untraditional choices. 

Let's say the movies for 2019 were announced, and it looked like this:

- Batman 

- Man of Steel 2

- Black Adam

- Cyborg 

The first two can be the crowd pleasers, the third the more untraditional perspective, and the last movie be more of a A24 style movie.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I just don't get it. Why Cyborg? Yeah, he's black, so are other far more interesting characters. My prophecy is that man vs machine/ struggle for the soul was done in 80s Robocop. And much better. But all the best for Vic, hope he convinces me otherwise.

----------


## JediKage

Cause Geoff likes Cyborg and hates John Stewart.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Cause Geoff likes Cyborg and hates John Stewart.


Aww, come on! I said I'm open for surprises and Cyborg could be the gateway character for a Titans movie. Yes, John and Black Lightning are more interesting, at least for me but Black Panther probably wipes the floor with all 3 of them anyways.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

With Aquaman chuggling along, surprised at the release date Dec 2018, that means an entire year without a DCEU film! I do hope WB move it to the summer.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I just don't get it. Why Cyborg?


He's the most recognizable DC African-American in regard to mainstream audiences at the moment. 15 years ago, it was John Stewart and he would have been the focus instead (Static was actually more popular back then, but we know about the creator problems there).

----------


## AquaLantern

> Cause Geoff likes Cyborg and hates John Stewart.


You know it's possible to like one without hating the other.

----------


## Sirzechs

> You know it's possible to like one without hating the other.


Be quiet, that doesn't support the conspiracy theory.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

So uh...Superman: Red Son might be in development...

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/06/27/s...red-son-movie/


Terrible idea and timing.

----------


## Frontier

Can we just get an actual Superman movie at this point  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## AcesX1X

no no no no no no no no no no no

----------


## Vanguard-01

Even if they do Red Son, it'll have to be a standalone movie. There's no way that concept fits into the DCEU unless they introduce the Multiverse and jump into it headfirst.

Plus? I very much doubt there's much interest in a comic book movie that in any way casts Russia in a good light with current events being what they are.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You know it's possible to like one without hating the other.


It's not only possible, but it's what the *vast* majority of fans do all of the time.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Even if they do Red Son, it'll have to be a standalone movie. There's no way that concept fits into the DCEU unless they introduce the Multiverse and jump into it headfirst.
> 
> Plus? I very much doubt there's much interest in a comic book movie that in any way casts Russia in a good light with current events being what they are.


I think it would be a bad idea for many reasons. To love and appreciate that story you have to truly love and understand Superman, which the general movie audience does not anymore. We would need 2-3 DCEU Superman films that capture the character's classic essence (starting with Justice League) before they are ready for a soviet Superman that converts most of the world to communism. Otherwise, it would do more harm than good to the character.

----------


## The Kid

> So uh...Superman: Red Son might be in development...
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/06/27/s...red-son-movie/
> 
> 
> Terrible idea and timing.


If this was an animated movie, cool. If this a DCEU movie... I really have no idea what they're doing lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I think it would be a bad idea for many reasons. To love and appreciate that story you have to truly love and understand Superman, which the general movie audience does not anymore. We would need 2-3 DCEU Superman films that capture the character's classic essence (starting with Justice League) before they are ready for a soviet Superman that converts most of the world to communism. Otherwise, it would do more harm than good to the character.


I disagree with you about the audience, but yeah this is still the wrong time to try a movie like this as a major feature film. That's hundreds of millions of dollars invested in a movie that a lot of people just might not be interested in. 

Moreover? The story doesn't NEED to be a feature film. It's been a long time since I read it, but I don't remember anything in that story that absolutely demands a big Hollywood budget in order to make it work. You want to do Red Son? It'd probably work just as well as an animated film. Much less money, much higher profit potential.

----------


## Sirzechs

> It's not only possible, but it's what the *vast* majority of fans do all of the time.


Right? Can't tell how excited I was when all of the earth lanterns were back in green and was saying the oath in Green Lanterns after the training arc.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I disagree with you about the audience, but yeah this is still the wrong time to try a movie like this as a major feature film. That's hundreds of millions of dollars invested in a movie that a lot of people just might not be interested in. 
> 
> Moreover? The story doesn't NEED to be a feature film. It's been a long time since I read it, but I don't remember anything in that story that absolutely demands a big Hollywood budget in order to make it work. You want to do Red Son? It'd probably work just as well as an animated film. Much less money, much higher profit potential.


This is what I was thinking plus I really don't think a Russian Superman is right for this time period. Make it a animated film

----------


## Lightning Rider

I would die of excitement for a Red Son movie, but I agree the timing isn't right. 

It sounds like much ado about nothing anyway. I don't think they're actually planning it.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> but yeah this is still the wrong time to try a movie like this as a major feature film.


Has there been a right time for this in any part of our lifetimes? It's fine as an Elseworld story, but a major-motion picture? WB might as well just throw their money into an incinerator instead.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I would die of excitement for a Red Son movie, but I agree the timing isn't right. 
> 
> It sounds like much ado about nothing anyway. I don't think they're actually planning it.


It's Millar. Wasn't he tooting the horn of the "superhero movie bubble bursting" just a year or two ago and that being why he was focusing on Empress, Chrononauts etc. as he "predicted" that sci-fi was the next big thing? Didn't he say Angelina Jolie was interested in Empress early last year? We haven't heard a peep about that since.

Just having fun with the thought though, it would be interesting to have the Russian Superman come from an alternate universe and be the villain in MoS2 or 3 (however my #1 choice for a similar story would be an adaptation of _Superman vs. The Elite_).

----------


## Flash Gordon

Red Son as a movie sounds just like the kind of bad idea that they would dive headfirst into. 

No thanks. I loved the comic but a film is gonna go up in smokes. I just want some real Superman flicks.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Has there been a right time for this in any part of our lifetimes? It's fine as an Elseworld story, but a major-motion picture? WB might as well just throw their money into an incinerator instead.


Or donate it to fans.  :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Vanguard-01

I'm pretty sure this movie will either A) never happen at all, B) become an animated movie, or C) will be an live action movie independent of the DCEU. 

And "C" is highly unlikely.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Or donate it to fans. 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Even better, BA. Sign me up!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Agent Z

> It's Millar. Wasn't he tooting the horn of the "superhero movie bubble bursting" just a year or two ago and that being why he was focusing on Empress, Chrononauts etc. as he "predicted" that sci-fi was the next big thing? Didn't he say Angelina Jolie was interested in Empress early last year? We haven't heard a peep about that since.
> 
> Just having fun with the thought though, it would be interesting to have the Russian Superman come from an alternate universe and be the villain in MoS2 or 3 (however my #1 choice for a similar story would be an adaptation of _Superman vs. The Elite_).


I don't see how Superman vs The Elite can happen in the DCEU given at least three of the heroes do not have the no killing rule

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

That was basically a nothing story yet somehow they were able to make a whole article on it? 
Internet nowadays I guess.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I don't see how Superman vs The Elite can happen in the DCEU given at least three of the heroes do not have the no killing rule


The Zod thing was an extreme situation for a day one Superman that doesn't mean he's gonna go around killing everyone that's a treat, and frankly Superman going forward can delve into the no killing rule more realistically as he knows first hand why its wrong to do it and what it does to you rather than he doesn't kill because he earth father said so.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The Zod thing was an extreme situation for a day one Superman that doesn't mean he's gonna go around killing everyone that's a treat, and frankly Superman going forward can delve into the no killing rule more realistically as he knows first hand why its wrong to do it and what it does to you rather than he doesn't kill because he earth father said so.


In the first 5 minutes of screen time in BvS he kills that militant that was holding Lois as a hostage.

----------


## Sirzechs

> In the first 5 minutes of screen time in BvS he kills that militant that was holding Lois as a hostage.


he didn't he tackled the guy away from Lois, after she nod to him.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> In the first 5 minutes of screen time in BvS he kills that militant that was holding Lois as a hostage.


No he didn't. He said he didn't kill anybody and Lois didn't contradict him. There was no blood, no bone-breaking sound effects, no corpse. 

Unless Lois and Clark are both liars, he didn't kill anyone.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> In the first 5 minutes of screen time in BvS he kills that militant that was holding Lois as a hostage.


It boggles my mind that people think that.

----------


## Agent Z

> The Zod thing was an extreme situation for a day one Superman that doesn't mean he's gonna go around killing everyone that's a treat, and frankly Superman going forward can delve into the no killing rule more realistically as he knows first hand why its wrong to do it and what it does to you rather than he doesn't kill because he earth father said so.


In the The Elite movie and the comic it was based on he was against killing period regardless of circumstances. At one point the comic has him compare the Elite to Nazis for killing nuclear powered terrorists in defence of civilians

----------


## Sirzechs

> In the The Elite movie and the comic it was based on he was against killing period regardless of circumstances. At one point the comic has him compare the Elite to Nazis for killing nuclear powered terrorists in defence of civilians


It works out the same since Superman killed Zod years before that arc was published with green kryptonite.

----------


## Agent Z

> It works out the same since Superman killed Zod years before that arc was published with green kryptonite.


You'll also notice that arc and every story dealing with lethal force ignores Clark killing Zod

----------


## Sirzechs

> You'll also notice that arc and every story dealing with lethal force ignores Clark killing Zod


So its fine as long as we ignore that Superman killed Zod ? Even better.

----------


## Spiritualcramp

I'm hoping we here news for a second film to accompany Aquaman man next year as DC will be losing out on a year for a lot of free money. FOX is releasing 3 films, the MCU is dropping their flagship Avengers film/BP and the sequel to Antman, and Warner isn't doing much.

----------


## AquaLantern

Did anyone else had no problem following the theater versions of BvS and Suicide Squad? Saw both in theaters and had no issue with following what was going on.

Because every time I hear whining about the editing and the pacing I can't help but think that those who made those complaints were too busy playing Candy Crush or making their heads look like toast with instagram.

----------


## Sirzechs

I won't lie first time I saw BVS i felt things were missing then the extended version drop and I saw that I was right.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Did anyone else had no problem following the theater versions of BvS and Suicide Squad? Saw both in theaters and had no issue with following what was going on.
> 
> Because every time I hear whining about the editing and the pacing I can't help but think that those who made those complaints were too busy playing Candy Crush or making their heads look like toast with instagram.


The Knightmare/Barry time travelling sequence is the only thing that really jarred me. But everything else was totally easy to follow. It's linear. So is Suicide Squad. There's not a lot of action for a lot of BvS so that's a legitimate criticism but in terms of not being able to follow the story, I find that bizarre.

----------


## Agent Z

> So its fine as long as we ignore that Superman killed Zod ? Even better.


Um no it isn't. At all. And I doubt the audience is just going to forget him killing Zod. What's So Funny... had the advantage of being written a decade later so not everyone reading would know of the Zod thing and the animated movie was in its own continuity

----------


## Sirzechs

> Um no it isn't. At all. And I doubt the audience is just going to forget him killing Zod. What's So Funny... had the advantage of being written a decade later so not everyone reading would know of the Zod thing and the animated movie was in its own continuity


Then don't quote the comic book version as the absolute point oif goodness about the no killing rule when he too killed in an extreme situation ( which he had better chance of just sending Zod to the phantom zone), which make him basically a hypocrite in the Elite storyline later.

----------


## Agent Z

> Then don't quote the comic book version as the absolute point oif goodness about the no killing rule when he too killed in an extreme situation ( which he had better chance of just sending Zod to the phantom zone), which make him basically a hypocrite in the Elite storyline later.


Um what? I wasn't quoting the book as the "absolute point of goodness on the no killing rule". I even said my reasons for not doing the story in the DCEU was because it would make him a hypocrite

----------


## Beantownbrown

*THE BATMAN Movie - Director Matt Reeves on his Vision for the Film*

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I just don't get it. Why Cyborg? Yeah, he's black, so are other far more interesting characters. My prophecy is that man vs machine/ struggle for the soul was done in 80s Robocop. And much better. But all the best for Vic, hope he convinces me otherwise.


There's some different elements with Cyborg being able to separate his logical side from his emotional side, and the former potentially being it's own personality/being, in Grid.

There could also be a play on Grid being the type of person Victor's father hoped he'd be, and maybe Grid is, in general, more effective in the field. That'd be an interesting struggle.

----------


## AcesX1X

> *THE BATMAN Movie - Director Matt Reeves on his Vision for the Film*


very exciting, thanks for posting beantown

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If this was an animated movie, cool. If this a DCEU movie... I really have no idea what they're doing lol


Millar wants a Superman story, that's his, done in live-action? He needs to go to Matthew Vaughn, and Fox, get that Superior adaptation into pre-production

It's too early for Red Son.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Okay, here is another "leaked Justice League trailer description"...but I'm actually praying this one is accurate. The Superman part gave me goosebumps:

http://heroicuniverse.com/potential-...ription-leaks/

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't see how Superman vs The Elite can happen in the DCEU given at least three of the heroes do not have the no killing rule


Killing isn't the only point of that story. Also, the DCEU Superman isn't as skilled or experienced as the Superman in that story.

Batman used to not kill, but Superman is still searching for who he wants to be. The Elite movie can't happen because the DCEU as a whole is too young, like it's Superman.

----------


## Punisher007

I have no interest in seeing Superman vs. The Elite in the DCEU.  I LOATHE that story.  So unless it's going to be less blatantly strawman-ey, no thanks.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> *THE BATMAN Movie - Director Matt Reeves on his Vision for the Film*


I love his Planet of the Apes, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what he does.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Okay, here is another "leaked Justice League trailer description"...but I'm actually praying this one is accurate. The Superman part gave me goosebumps:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/potential-...ription-leaks/


Yeah, I'll admit, I'd much rather see this trailer than the other one. 

Still not sure how trustworthy it is. Like the web site says, this Reddit group tends to be wrong more often than they tend to be right. Still? Apparently the one time they were right, it was about a Justice League trailer, so that gives them some credibility here, I suppose. 

I certainly WANT this trailer to be legit, at any rate!  :Smile:

----------


## Robotman

> Okay, here is another "leaked Justice League trailer description"...but I'm actually praying this one is accurate. The Superman part gave me goosebumps:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/potential-...ription-leaks/


sounds pretty cool. hope it's true. i have mixed feelings about showing Superman. on one hand we all know he's coming back, so it's not like they're spoiling anything. but i'm still worried that they'll show too much like they did with the BvS trailer. still have no idea why they revealed Doomsday. what a boneheaded move that was. they should have just left it with Superman saying to Lex "what have you done?" and then you hear the roar. nothing more. anyway, this doesn't sound like they're showing too much of Kal so i'm happy about that. 




> Killing isn't the only point of that story. Also, the DCEU Superman isn't as skilled or experienced as the Superman in that story.
> 
> Batman used to not kill, but Superman is still searching for who he wants to be. The Elite movie can't happen because the DCEU as a whole is too young, like it's Superman.


yeah, the Elite storyline would make no sense in the current DCEU. the elite were a parody of the ultra violent and destructive teams of the 90s. a parody of Wildstorm which itself was full of parodies. 
as you said they haven't established this Superman's moral code yet. they said he had learned his lesson from MoS about property damage and killing but in BvS there was even more property damage in the Doomsday fight and he put the African terrorist through a few brick walls. plus Snyder was trying to emulate the gritty Frank Miller DCU. seems like a place where the Elite would fit right in.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I love his Planet of the Apes, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what he does.


Same here. My hopes are we get a movie about Bruce, we haven't since 2008. Not a movie about Deathstroke. Then I'll have multiple orgasms while watching the hell out of it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Same here. My hopes are we get a movie about Bruce, we haven't since 2008. Not a movie about Deathstroke. Then I'll have multiple orgasms while watching the hell out of it.


As long as Deathstroke fights him, beats him, or at least is forced into a draw of some kind, I'd be fine with Deathstroke being in a Bruce centric Batman movie.

Also, while I shouldn't have to worry abut this with Reeves, they better keep on with the theme that Batman is damaged goods, mentally, and ISN'T always right. If they do the UtRH story, that would need to be a movie that challenges the audience.

----------


## Agent Z

> Killing isn't the only point of that story. Also, the DCEU Superman isn't as skilled or experienced as the Superman in that story.
> 
> Batman used to not kill, but Superman is still searching for who he wants to be. The Elite movie can't happen because the DCEU as a whole is too young, like it's Superman.


Killing is literally the only point of the story

----------


## JediKage

> You know it's possible to like one without hating the other.


It has nothing to do with liking only one Black Character or something.

I got Geoff's entire Green Lantern Run as proof.

----------


## Styles

> *THE BATMAN Movie - Director Matt Reeves on his Vision for the Film*


A "Noir-driven, detective version of Batman" Oh hell, Im down for that!

----------


## JediKage

Doesn't seem a good fit for Deathstroke though.

----------


## Agent Z

Found this nice fan made poster in Reddit  

https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...ter_by_camw1n/

----------


## Confuzzled

^That's an amazing fan poster. 




> Doesn't seem a good fit for Deathstroke though.


Deathstroke's probably been cut from the film.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> ^That's an amazing fan poster. 
> 
> 
> 
> Deathstroke's probably been cut from the film.


That's not been confirmed. Also, a Batman movie needs a good fight, Deathstroke does that.

----------


## godisawesome

I've been thinking Deathstroke could serve as a kind of pressure and running clock on Batman: while normally he'd have all the time, energy and resources to solve whatever the mystery is, someone's hired Deathstroke to take him out before he can, and it basically makes the movie a hybrid cat-and-mouse/detective story.

Like, just picture Batman having to escape numerous fights with Deathstroke, having the Batmobile blown up, running low on gadgets, beaten and bruised like a god noir detective, and still investigating the crime scene and running down leads.

----------


## Lightning Rider

That fan-made poster is sick. The subtle but symbolic inclusion of Superman is a great touch.




> A "Noir-driven, detective version of Batman" Oh hell, I’m down for that!


The most exciting thing about what he said. He definitely gets Batman's internal struggles too.




> I've been thinking Deathstroke could serve as a kind of pressure and running clock on Batman: while normally he'd have all the time, energy and resources to solve whatever the mystery is, someone's hired Deathstroke to take him out before he can, and it basically makes the movie a hybrid cat-and-mouse/detective story.
> 
> Like, just picture Batman having to escape numerous fights with Deathstroke, having the Batmobile blown up, running low on gadgets, beaten and bruised like a god noir detective, and still investigating the crime scene and running down leads.


I think that would be amazing. I get what you're going for: a constant reappearing presence that puts pressure on Batman as he solves a bigger kind of separate mystery. The action can be paced out until the climax. That would definitely build Deathstroke a force to be reckoned with in people's eyes.

----------


## soccerguy951

> I've been thinking Deathstroke could serve as a kind of pressure and running clock on Batman: while normally he'd have all the time, energy and resources to solve whatever the mystery is, someone's hired Deathstroke to take him out before he can, and it basically makes the movie a hybrid cat-and-mouse/detective story.
> 
> Like, just picture Batman having to escape numerous fights with Deathstroke, having the Batmobile blown up, running low on gadgets, beaten and bruised like a god noir detective, and still investigating the crime scene and running down leads.


Eh, i'd rather them just leave Deathstroke out of the Batman movie, and I say this as Deathstroke being my favorite dc villian. But this just doesn't seem like a good fit. Too easy for them to misinterpret the character and delve into some generic action flick. Batman's not short on villians that better fit his world. And with the dceu finally starting to ramp up, there'll be a movie more suitable for Deathstroke down the road.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Eh, i'd rather them just leave Deathstroke out of the Batman movie, and I say this as Deathstroke being my favorite dc villian. But this just doesn't seem like a good fit. Too easy for them to misinterpret the character and delve into some generic action flick. Batman's not short on villians that better fit his world. And with the dceu finally starting to ramp up, there'll be a movie more suitable for Deathstroke down the road.


I would trust Reeves not to misinterpret the character. Plus Deathstroke is so deadly that they have to use him sparingly for action scenes, but man, when they do square off, it's going to have to be the best choreographed thing ever.

----------


## darkseidpwns

I would be fine if Deathstroke was like the T-800 from the first Terminator. Remember that film fits under horror genre not action, same goes for the first Predator. They can give Slade depth in a later film.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I would be fine if Deathstroke was like the T-800 from the first Terminator. Remember that film fits under horror genre not action, same goes for the first Predator. They can give Slade depth in a later film.


I like this approach a lot. 

I think you could even leave hints that this is just Deathstroke doing the job, which could be "Keep batman from solving this mystery, but don't kill him". Leave it hanging that Deathstroke coming at batman for the kill for personal reasons is a whole different ballpark.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

Deathstroke would most definitely be a physical and mental threat for Batman. Having him as a villain would without a doubt be a bold new direction for the Batman franchise as a whole. He's never fought someone like that in any of his adaptations. I hope if they do have Deathstroke he's hired by Hugo Strange or something. He's always been one of my favorite Batman villains and like Slade, never had a part in the Batman movies. It would be a good way to establish Arkham Asylum and give Bruce a good psychological enemy while Deathstroke deals with him physically. 

I wonder who'd they'd cast. It's big shoes to fill after B.D. Wong's performance in Gotham.

----------


## byrd156

> Deathstroke would most definitely be a physical and mental threat for Batman. Having him as a villain would without a doubt be a bold new direction for the Batman franchise as a whole. He's never fought someone like that in any of his adaptations. I hope if they do have Deathstroke he's hired by Hugo Strange or something. He's always been one of my favorite Batman villains and like Slade, never had a part in the Batman movies. It would be a good way to establish Arkham Asylum and give Bruce a good psychological enemy while Deathstroke deals with him physically. 
> 
> I wonder who'd they'd cast. It's big shoes to fill after B.D. Wong's performance in Gotham.


Are they really big shoes to fill? How many people actually watch Gotham?

----------


## pansy

> Found this nice fan made poster in Reddit  
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...ter_by_camw1n/


Coloring is incredible.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

One year anniversary since the true cut of BvS came out. Wild.

----------


## AcesX1X

lord, i thought that poster was real.  the palpatations ..

----------


## Styles

> Deathstroke would most definitely be a physical and mental threat for Batman. Having him as a villain would without a doubt be a bold new direction for the Batman franchise as a whole. He's never fought someone like that in any of his adaptations. I hope if they do have Deathstroke he's hired by Hugo Strange or something. He's always been one of my favorite Batman villains and like Slade, never had a part in the Batman movies. It would be a good way to establish Arkham Asylum and give Bruce a good psychological enemy while Deathstroke deals with him physically. 
> 
> I wonder who'd they'd cast. It's big shoes to fill after B.D. Wong's performance in Gotham.


How about Andy Serkis? Matt Reeves looks like he's down to have him in the Batman movie.

----------


## Frontier

> How about Andy Serkis? Matt Reeves looks like he's down to have him in the Batman movie.


Now that I think about it, Serkis could make a fun Strange...or Clayface  :Wink: ?

----------


## AcesX1X

andy serkis would be a great man-bat

----------


## The Kid

If Reeves is talking about a noir-detective film, I really hope we see Clayface as a villain

----------


## Confuzzled

> If Reeves is talking about a noir-detective film, I really hope we see Clayface as a villain


_Feat of Clay Pt. I_ was the earliest memory I have of BTAS and that was my intro to the noir tone of Batman. Even before I was aware of the Burton movies.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I've been thinking Deathstroke could serve as a kind of pressure and running clock on Batman: while normally he'd have all the time, energy and resources to solve whatever the mystery is, someone's hired Deathstroke to take him out before he can, and it basically makes the movie a hybrid cat-and-mouse/detective story.
> 
> Like, just picture Batman having to escape numerous fights with Deathstroke, having the Batmobile blown up, running low on gadgets, beaten and bruised like a god noir detective, and still investigating the crime scene and running down leads.





> That fan-made poster is sick. The subtle but symbolic inclusion of Superman is a great touch.
> 
> 
> 
> The most exciting thing about what he said. He definitely gets Batman's internal struggles too.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that would be amazing. I get what you're going for: a constant reappearing presence that puts pressure on Batman as he solves a bigger kind of separate mystery. The action can be paced out until the climax. That would definitely build Deathstroke a force to be reckoned with in people's eyes.





> I would be fine if Deathstroke was like the T-800 from the first Terminator. Remember that film fits under horror genre not action, same goes for the first Predator. They can give Slade depth in a later film.





> I like this approach a lot. 
> 
> I think you could even leave hints that this is just Deathstroke doing the job, which could be "Keep batman from solving this mystery, but don't kill him". Leave it hanging that Deathstroke coming at batman for the kill for personal reasons is a whole different ballpark.


Yup, that would be awesome. This is just Slade doing a job, and the job is to mess with Batman, and slow him down. Batman could maybe have interacted with, or heard of Deathstroke, and he feels a certain way about him, but Slade is seeing this as the equivalent of him working a convenience store. Just make him the coniving, sarcastic, cynical, super soldier and master tactician he is, while making a it clear that Slade is a professional, and this is nothing compared to a Slade that actually WANTS to kill you. 

Do all that, but keep him as the monster in the background that Batman is always having to look out for.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I've been thinking Deathstroke could serve as a kind of pressure and running clock on Batman: while normally he'd have all the time, energy and resources to solve whatever the mystery is, someone's hired Deathstroke to take him out before he can, and it basically makes the movie a hybrid cat-and-mouse/detective story.
> 
> Like, just picture Batman having to escape numerous fights with Deathstroke, having the Batmobile blown up, running low on gadgets, beaten and bruised like a god noir detective, and still investigating the crime scene and running down leads.





> That fan-made poster is sick. The subtle but symbolic inclusion of Superman is a great touch.
> 
> 
> 
> The most exciting thing about what he said. He definitely gets Batman's internal struggles too.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that would be amazing. I get what you're going for: a constant reappearing presence that puts pressure on Batman as he solves a bigger kind of separate mystery. The action can be paced out until the climax. That would definitely build Deathstroke a force to be reckoned with in people's eyes.





> I would be fine if Deathstroke was like the T-800 from the first Terminator. Remember that film fits under horror genre not action, same goes for the first Predator. They can give Slade depth in a later film.





> I like this approach a lot. 
> 
> I think you could even leave hints that this is just Deathstroke doing the job, which could be "Keep batman from solving this mystery, but don't kill him". Leave it hanging that Deathstroke coming at batman for the kill for personal reasons is a whole different ballpark.





> Deathstroke would most definitely be a physical and mental threat for Batman. Having him as a villain would without a doubt be a bold new direction for the Batman franchise as a whole. He's never fought someone like that in any of his adaptations. I hope if they do have Deathstroke he's hired by Hugo Strange or something. He's always been one of my favorite Batman villains and like Slade, never had a part in the Batman movies. It would be a good way to establish Arkham Asylum and give Bruce a good psychological enemy while Deathstroke deals with him physically. 
> 
> I wonder who'd they'd cast. It's big shoes to fill after B.D. Wong's performance in Gotham.


Mads Mikkelsen could be a better Hugo Strange, imo. Maybe a serious Anthony Hopkins? Javier Bardem? Andy Serkis would be a great pick too, tho he's part of the MCU currently...

----------


## Frontier

> *Mads Mikkelsen could be a better Hugo Strange, imo. Maybe a serious Anthony Hopkins? Javier Bardem?* Andy Serkis would be a great pick too, tho he's part of the MCU currently...


I could see them voicing Strange more then I could them actually playing him, but then again I never expected how comic-accurate BD Wong would look...

----------


## Sirzechs

> Mads Mikkelsen could be a better Hugo Strange, imo. Maybe a serious Anthony Hopkins? Javier Bardem? Andy Serkis would be a great pick too, tho he's part of the MCU currently...


well after Brolin has been casted as Cable anything is possible

----------


## AcesX1X

last night wonder woman surpassed suicide squad domestically and will surpass bvs today, becoming the #1 dceu movie to date.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> well after Brolin has been casted as Cable anything is possible


That's Cable, a Marvel character, not a DC character. Remember there was a report that said that MCU actors are contractually not allowed to do DCEU movies.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> last night wonder woman surpassed suicide squad domestically and will surpass bvs today, becoming the #1 dceu movie to date.


Domestically. 

That's great for WW, but seriously hope that Johns is serious about what he said, that just because WW is now the cool kid that not every other movie needs to be like it. If WB wants to release 3 DCEU movies a year, that needs to be 3 different tones a year, too. The MCU has the similar tone area covered, and it's everyone else's job to not just copy what somebody else did.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> last night wonder woman surpassed suicide squad domestically and will surpass bvs today, becoming the #1 dceu movie to date.


No idea why I was concerned looked like a packed June but more or less everything else was a dud! Especially T5 the think WB were concerned about themselves!

----------


## JediKage

> Domestically. 
> 
> That's great for WW, but seriously hope that Johns is serious about what he said, that just because WW is now the cool kid that not every other movie needs to be like it. If WB wants to release 3 DCEU movies a year, that needs to be 3 different tones a year, too. The MCU has the similar tone area covered, and it's everyone else's job to not just copy what somebody else did.


The tone needs to fit the character. 

Ie Superman shouldn't be a brooding sad sack all the time.

----------


## nightbird

> That's Cable, a Marvel character, not a DC character. Remember there was a report that said that MCU actors are contractually not allowed to do DCEU movies.


Chris Hemsworth said so. But he is a major player in MCU. Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje played one of the villains in Thor 2, now he is Killer Croc in Suicide Squad.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Chris Hemsworth said so. But he is a major player in MCU. Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje played one of the villains in Thor 2, now he is Killer Croc in Suicide Squad.


And Jamie Alexander who plays (played?) Sif had auditioned for the role of Wonder Woman. She had made some quotes about DC that screamed sour grapes after she lost out on the role.

----------


## Agent Z

> And Jamie Alexander who plays (played?) Sif had auditioned for the role of Wonder Woman. She had made some quotes about DC that screamed sour grapes after she lost out on the role.


I thought she was offered the role but turned it down because she didn't like the script.

----------


## JediKage

If I had to guess it would only apply to leads and top supporting characters.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I thought she was offered the role but turned it down because she didn't like the script.


LOL no. She was proper miffed that she didn't get the role. It was also the main reason why John Campea who was rooting for her hated on Gal for so long.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> LOL no. She was proper miffed that she didn't get the role. It was also the main reason why John Campea who was rooting for her hated on Gal for so long.


Heh. She isn't anywhere near the top of the movie food chain to start turning down a lead role in a big-budget movie.  :Smile:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> LOL no. She was proper miffed that she didn't get the role. It was also the main reason why John Campea who was rooting for her hated on Gal for so long.


She hates Gal?

----------


## TheSupernaut

> She hates Gal?


How could anyone possibly hate Gal?

----------


## nightbird

> And Jamie Alexander who plays (played?) Sif had auditioned for the role of Wonder Woman. She had made some quotes about DC that screamed sour grapes after she lost out on the role.


Did Marvel fire her or what? Is she in Thor 3?

----------


## Doctor Know

> Did Marvel fire her or what? Is she in Thor 3?


Fire? No. 

Jamie Alexander is simply joining Gwenth Paltrow, Hayley Atwell, Liv Tyler, Natalie Portman, Claudia Kim and possibly Rachel Mcadams in never reprising their roles/showing up in the MCU again. 

They still have

ScarJo
Elizabeth Olsen 
Emily VanCamp - who is yawn inducing in every scene.
Tessa Thompson
Evangeline Lily
Letita Wright
Brie Olsen

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> No idea why I was concerned looked like a packed June but more or less everything else was a dud! Especially T5 the think WB were concerned about themselves!


T5's bombing was an expected surprised and benefit to WW... also Cars 3 didn't do as well as expected.





> I thought she was offered the role but turned it down because she didn't like the script.


Not at all.




> And Jamie Alexander who plays (played?) Sif had auditioned for the role of Wonder Woman. She had made some quotes about DC that screamed sour grapes after she lost out on the role.


The production staff laughed at some of her acting in Thor.  During the Frost Giant battle Loki's, "Thor we must go!" line was actually supposed to be Sif's.  Her delivery was so bad that they eventually just gave it to Hiddleston.

----------


## Confuzzled

> She hates Gal?


I don't know lol. But after losing out on Wonder Woman, she said something like DC is not about characters and Marvel is about characters. And now we don't even know if she is returning as Sif, so...  :Big Grin:  

One of her online superfans John Campea who is an online "commentator on superhero movies", was so butthurt that Gal got picked over her that he went on a 3 year tirade bashing Gal and complaining how she didn't deserve to play Wonder Woman. It was only after the film came out and she got such glowing reviews that he finally ate crow and grudgingly admitted that she was fine. 




> The production staff laughed at some of her acting in Thor.  During the Frost Giant battle Loki's, "Thor we must go!" line was actually supposed to be Sif's.  Her delivery was so bad that they eventually just gave it to Hiddleston.


Haha I hadn't heard of this juicy bit of behind the scenes gossip before.

----------


## nightbird

> Fire? No. 
> 
> Jamie Alexander is simply joining Gwenth Paltrow, Hayley Atwell, Liv Tyler, Natalie Portman, Claudia Kim and possibly Rachel Mcadams in never reprising their roles/showing up in the MCU again. 
> 
> They still have
> 
> ScarJo
> Elizabeth Olsen 
> Emily VanCamp - who is yawn inducing in every scene.
> ...


Well, almost all these ladies have some reasons to not reprise their roles; but why they suddenly decided to sideline Jaimie Alexander? People liked her enough in Thor movies.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I don't know lol. But after losing out on Wonder Woman, she said something like DC is not about characters and Marvel is about characters. And now we don't even know if she is returning as Sif, so...  
> 
> One of her online superfans John Campea who is an online "commentator on superhero movies", was so butthurt that Gal got picked over her that he went on a 3 year tirade bashing Gal and complaining how she didn't deserve to play Wonder Woman. It was only after the film came out and she got such glowing reviews that he finally ate crow and grudgingly admitted that she was fine. 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha I hadn't heard of this juicy bit of behind the scenes gossip before.


I admit I wasn't on board the Gal train either but Alexander was and is waay too plain to be a standout superhero, she's one of those that belongs as a throwaway civilian, never bought her as Wonder Woman.
Wow she's not returning as Sif? I thought she was one of the more popular Thor characters, cant believe she got the Jane treatment.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Haha I hadn't heard of this juicy bit of behind the scenes gossip before.


I knew several people who worked on the production.  Video village was getting frustrated with her acting.  I always thought it was horrible that she was even being considered.  The Warriors Three also had a bigger part in the movie but their comedic schtick just didn't work out.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Well, almost all these ladies have some reasons to not reprise their roles; but why they suddenly decided to sideline Jaimie Alexander? People liked her enough in Thor movies.


I have the feeling that it is a combination of two things.  First... Tessa is essentially taking her role as the female warrior in Thor 3.  Secondly... and probably a little more relevant is that she probably wants more money than they are offering.  Marvel/Disney is notoriously cheap.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Well, almost all these ladies have some reasons to not reprise their roles; but why they suddenly decided to sideline Jaimie Alexander? People liked her enough in Thor movies.





> I have the feeling that it is a combination of two things.  First... Tessa is essentially taking her role as the female warrior in Thor 3.  Secondly... and probably a little more relevant is that she probably wants more money than they are offering.  Marvel/Disney is notoriously cheap.


Pretty much what FlashEarthOne said. Tessa Thompson/Valkeryie is supplanting Sif for Thor 3. Plus, look at how the Asgardian cast  (excluding Loki) was used in Thor TDW. Curbed. 

While Jamie Alexander has fans, her role in the Thor movies and Agents of SHIELD is not essential. Like so many other female characters in the MCU, she's being phased out.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Anyone else think Gotham City Sirens is a terrible idea and a recipe for terrible reviews? Also, does having David Ayer direct this make any sense following his messy SS script? There were also a lot of pervy shots of Harley in that---only wonder what having Catwoman and Poison Ivy will do. Hope they scrap this.

----------


## The Kid

> Anyone else think Gotham City Sirens is a terrible idea and a recipe for terrible reviews? Also, does having David Ayer direct this make any sense following his messy SS script? *There were also a lot of pervy shots of Harley in that---only wonder what having Catwoman and Poison Ivy will do*. Hope they scrap this.


That's exactly why I don't want Ayer anywhere near the property.

----------


## Punisher007

Jamie Alexander is starring in her own TV show, which affects her schedule as well.  As for GCS, it's happened mostly since Margot wants it to happen apparently.

----------


## Confuzzled

WB and Johns are going to ensure the Gotham City Sirens script is not a mess like Suicide Squad's. A woman writer (I forget her name) who wrote the script for the upcoming Tomb Raider film is behind the Sirens script, not Ayer.

These three ladies will be sexy but I think with Ayer teasing Black Mask as the villain, the film's not going to be 100% cheesecake fluff.

----------


## Frontier

> I knew several people who worked on the production.  Video village was getting frustrated with her acting.  I always thought it was horrible that she was even being considered.  *The Warriors Three also had a bigger part in the movie* but their comedic schtick just didn't work out.


Wha...? So we missed out on the Warriors Three getting a lot more to do? Ah man  :Frown: ...



> Jamie Alexander is starring in her own TV show, which affects her schedule as well.  As for GCS, it's happened mostly since Margot wants it to happen apparently.


Yeah, I think it's more likely she was unable to reprise Sif because she couldn't reconcile the scheduling with her TV show. 

Though they've hinted she (and the Warriors Three) might make a smaller appearance.

----------


## The Kid

> WB and Johns are going to ensure the Gotham City Sirens script is not a mess like Suicide Squad's. A woman writer (I forget her name) who wrote the script for the upcoming Tomb Raider film is behind the Sirens script, not Ayer.
> 
> These three ladies will be sexy but I think with Ayer teasing Black Mask as the villain, the film's not going to be 100% cheesecake fluff.


The script will probably be better because of that but what we are worried about comes down to the director. Johns and Berg won't have much control over how Ayer shoots the film

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Anyone else think Gotham City Sirens is a terrible idea and a recipe for terrible reviews? Also, does having David Ayer direct this make any sense following his messy SS script? There were also a lot of pervy shots of Harley in that---only wonder what having Catwoman and Poison Ivy will do. Hope they scrap this.


I must admit, it's not something that I can get too excited about. I'd rather they just focused all their energies on a straight up Suicide Squad sequel. 

It's happening though. It's Margot Robbie's baby (so to speak).

----------


## Frontier

> The script will probably be better because of that but what we are worried about comes down to the director. Johns and Berg won't have much control over how Ayer shoots the film


I think, given the characters involved, it's kind of impossible not expect quite a bit of Male Gaze moments, but I also hope WB reins in Ayer from doing too much of it because I don't see that going over well for a female-led movie. 

Though I'm a little more curious what kind of costumes we'll see the Sirens sporting.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The script will probably be better because of that but what we are worried about comes down to the director. Johns and Berg won't have much control over how Ayer shoots the film


And holy hell does he have a penchant for dark and gloomy...which, you know, is kinda an issue.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I don't think they should scrap Sirens, I do think Ayer should be given the boot though.

----------


## Robotman

> Anyone else think Gotham City Sirens is a terrible idea and a recipe for terrible reviews? Also, does having David Ayer direct this make any sense following his messy SS script? There were also a lot of pervy shots of Harley in that---only wonder what having Catwoman and Poison Ivy will do. Hope they scrap this.


I think Gotham City Sirens is a great idea but they just need to get rid of Ayer. I appreciate the fact that he wanted the Joker's relationship with Harley to be more abusive which hopefully would have lead to her leaving him and becoming an independent women, like her character arc in the comics. I know that it was WB's meddling that turned Joker and Harley into a teenage Hot Topic romance. So i'm cutting him slack for that. But the rest of the movie was a complete mess. A villain/threat that makes the usual lame Marvel movie villains seem interesting. bad guys that looked like the Putties from Power Rangers. Harley going on a mission wearing stilettos, booty shorts, and the whole "Daddy's Little Monster" crap. not to mention the cringe worthy tattoos. They're lucky that Margot Robbie is so naturally charming that she was able to salvage the role. 

I'm hoping that Johns can rein-in Ayer a bit. Yes, Harley and Ivy are more than just friends but I'm really dreading to see what Ayer will do with that aspect of their relationship.

----------


## Tec15

> I thought she was offered the role but turned it down because she didn't like the script.


Lol. Imagine actually believing Jamie Alexander was in a position to pick and choose and turn down roles like Wonder Woman based on the "script". "Yeah, she turned WB down when they came begging her for the role because she didn't like the script. She preferred playing the role of Sif for the whopping five minutes of screen time because the script for the Dark World was so damn good. Clearly better than playing Wonder Woman in mutliple movies."

----------


## Tec15

> I don't think they should scrap Sirens, I do think Ayer should be given the boot though.


Basically. No reason to scrap a movie containing Some of DC's most popular female characters (Something in which they have a big advantage over Marvel). In fact it has more reason to happen than a Suicide Squad sequel at this point.

----------


## Ascended

Im not concerned about Ayer as much as I am the script itself. Unless Ayer wrote the script (did he?) then I'd have nothing against him directing the sequel. Hell, even if he did write the script, as long as someone else writes the next one, Ayer can stay on as director. 

Now, I could have really gone for a more monstrous looking Croc. This is the first time in Bat-movie history where you can get away with the really crazy meta-villains like Croc, Man-Bat, and Clayface. Making Croc a dude with bad skin seems like missing an opportunity. That's on Ayer as far as I can tell but its a nit-pick. 

The main issue I had with Squad was the story, not how Ayer directed it. The entire purpose of the Squad falls apart as soon as one of their own goes off the reservation. Waller should have been thrown in jail and the Task Force X project dropped as soon as the attack on Midway was proven to be the Enchantress' doing. And while I sort of understand why they went in the "Butch and Sundance" direction with Harley and Joker, I really, really, really hate that idea. That's twisting up their dysfunctional dynamic in a way that throws a really bad example at young girls. 

I'd rather have Sirens than Squad-2, but Im largely ambivalent about it. The best thing about Squad was Robbie's Harley, so as long as she stays around and the story stays true to the character (a slight adjustment to her character trajectory might be called for) then whatever.

What I really want to see are the Birds of Prey. I need me some Black Canary in the DCEU to make up for how badly they've handled her in Arrow.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

David Ayer got dealt a bad hand by WB. Think it's unfair to not give him another chance, WB dealt Snyder a bad blow and they still kept him on for JL. I'm happy with him to take Sirens. I mean Harley was much more than a sex object in the film, in fact a lot of people agree she was the best part.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> David Ayer got dealt a bad hand by WB. Think it's unfair to not give him another chance, WB dealt Snyder a bad blow and they still kept him on for JL. I'm happy with him to take Sirens. I mean Harley was much more than a sex object in the film, in fact a lot of people agree she was the best part.


The number of directors who aren't given second chance are so numerous.  The world isn't fair... the film biz even less so.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Im not concerned about Ayer as much as I am the script itself. Unless Ayer wrote the script (did he?) then I'd have nothing against him directing the sequel. Hell, even if he did write the script, as long as someone else writes the next one, Ayer can stay on as director.


He did... he deserves as much blame as WB for the films flaws.  DC and DCEU apologists need not respond.  We all know what you are going to say.  you've said it enough.

----------


## golgi

I really liked Suicide Squad and most people I know did too. I don't mind him coming back. And lets be honest, WB rushed the movie. It wasn't entirely his fault.

----------


## nightbird

> Im not concerned about Ayer as much as I am the script itself. Unless Ayer wrote the script (did he?) then I'd have nothing against him directing the sequel. Hell, even if he did write the script, as long as someone else writes the next one, Ayer can stay on as director.


He did, in 6 weeks, then WB reportedly rushed SS into production.

----------


## Confuzzled

Ayer can return because WB made him write the SS script in six weeks, which is just insane.

I also think his intentions were good and he wanted to show Harley as a tragic figure who nevertheless was unapologetic for her mess ups and the way she carried herself. IMO Ayer managed to show that she had agency when it came to her sexuality and how she presented it in front of men.

He could do with a woman's touch though (I mean when it comes to capturing the complex characterizations of the Gotham City Sirens  :Stick Out Tongue: ) and it looks like the script is being written by an up and coming female writer Geneva Dworet-Robertson so that's nice. I also appreciated the humility Ayer showed in his apology note on Twitter. He didn't have to do it as Suicide Squad was such a financial success, but the fact that he did it anyway went a long way in making me root for him to pick himself back up again and deliver his best movie yet in Sirens.

----------


## Robotman

> Ayer can return because WB made him write the SS script in six weeks, which is just insane.
> 
> I also think his intentions were good and he wanted to show Harley as a tragic figure who nevertheless was unapologetic for her mess ups and the way she carried herself. IMO Ayer managed to show that she had agency when it came to her sexuality and how she presented it in front of men.
> 
> He could do with a woman's touch though (I mean when it comes to capturing the complex characterizations of the Gotham City Sirens ) and it looks like the script is being written by an up and coming female writer Geneva Dworet-Robertson so that's nice. I also appreciated the humility Ayer showed in his apology note on Twitter. He didn't have to do it as Suicide Squad was such a financial success, but the fact that he did it anyway went a long way in making me root for him to pick himself back up again and deliver his best movie yet in Sirens.


Just looked that up. Amazing that he basically apologized for all the film's flaws. Not often you see a filmmaker do something like that. That's admirable. I'm still really glad he isn't writing the script for Sirens. Plus Johns has a lot more control of the DCEU after the amazing success of Wonder Woman. So hopefully he can help Ayer with the source material and keep the WB suits from meddling with the film. 

Though there's still a huge chance that Justice League is a disaster. Who knows what the future of the DCEU will be if that movie turns out to be yet another mess.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Just looked that up. Amazing that he basically apologized for all the film's flaws. Not often you see a filmmaker do something like that. That's admirable. I'm still really glad he isn't writing the script for Sirens. Plus Johns has a lot more control of the DCEU after the amazing success of Wonder Woman. So hopefully he can help Ayer with the source material and keep the WB suits from meddling with the film. 
> 
> Though there's still a huge chance that Justice League is a disaster. Who knows what the future of the DCEU will be if that movie turns out to be yet another mess.


I think Aquaman will still be solid even if JL is a mess. And so would Batman, Batgirl, Flash (if Lord & Miller are signed on), Wonder Woman 2 and maybe Nightwing too.

But yeah, those films will have an uphill battle and will probably make less if JL is panned and we will be back to the clickbait negativity which seems to have subsided somewhat after Wonder Woman's epic win.

OTOH, if JL is warmly received, the sky is the limit. An average reception (anything fresh on _Rotten Tomatoes_) would suffice too, though that would not put a stop to the neverending MCU vs. DCEU flame wars online.

----------


## Doctor Know

> The number of directors who aren't given second chance are so numerous.  The world isn't fair... the film biz even less so.


As long as you play ball with the studios, you can always come back. Look at Josh Trank after FF 2015. He committed career suicide during production of FF and the day before FF was to be released. He was dropped by Disney from doing a Star Wars anthology film and has had no film prospects since 2015.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Just looked that up. Amazing that he basically apologized for all the film's flaws. Not often you see a filmmaker do something like that. That's admirable. I'm still really glad he isn't writing the script for Sirens. Plus Johns has a lot more control of the DCEU after the amazing success of Wonder Woman. So hopefully he can help Ayer with the source material and keep the WB suits from meddling with the film. 
> 
> Though there's still a huge chance that Justice League is a disaster. Who knows what the future of the DCEU will be if that movie turns out to be yet another mess.


Things will still go forward maybe with less planned per year.  If it isn't positively received then Snyder will most likely be disconnected from future DCEU plans.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Things will still go forward maybe with less planned per year.  If it isn't positively received then Snyder will most likely be disconnected from future DCEU plans.


Yeah, if JL is received poorly, unless WB can trace the problem back to some other factor, they'll probably just take it as final confirmation that it's Zack Snyder's name in connection with DCEU films that's causing the problem. Lesson learned? No more Snyder. Wonder Woman has proven that the DCEU isn't inherently flawed. Just that the Zack Snyder approach to these films just isn't what the current audience is really looking for. 

The DCEU can still move forward. They'll just decide that future movies just need to look and feel as little like Zack Snyder movies as possible. I will never completely understand the hate that Snyder gets, but I'm business savvy enough to understand that WB needs to do what's right for this franchise they're trying to build, and if Snyder seems to be a hindrance to that goal, then he's gotta go. I don't agree with it, but that's just the way it goes.

----------


## AquaLantern

So I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but in case you fortunate enough to not venture into Tumblr, there has been a fan war regarding Wonder Woman and Black Panther.

At first I thought it was just regular DC vs Marvel stuff, but here's how I see the 2 sides:

If you like WW over BP, you're a huge racist and hate black people.

If you like BP over WW, you an antisemitic and hate israeli people.

From what I've had to deal with some people can't understand why some can like WW over BP especially when BP only has one trailer released.

I may prefer Wonder Woman over Black Panther but that's just me having a preference over DC over Marvel. Yet some radical fans see this as me hating black people.

Why can't people accept that people who like one thing over another does not make them racist or sexist or anything like that?

Why is it so hard to support one thing without degrading the other?

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> So I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but in case you fortunate enough to not venture into Tumblr, there has been a fan war regarding Wonder Woman and Black Panther.
> 
> At first I thought it was just regular DC vs Marvel stuff, but here's how I see the 2 sides:
> 
> If you like WW over BP, you're a huge racist and hate black people.
> 
> If you like BP over WW, you an antisemitic and hate israeli people.
> 
> From what I've had to deal with some people can't understand why some can like WW over BP especially when BP only has one trailer released.
> ...


I typically stay off of Tumblr since when it comes to comic books I always find this dick raising war between people over who is better or what mentality is best. Like I can't just enjoy both subjects or that I prefer to watch or read something about a character or franchise/brand over another. It's why I got so irritated on here a few days ago when someone brought that kind of topic in a thread about "why ___ can do no wrong" (as I will not dignify that with a full title), as this only invites people to argue over anything and detract from any of the importance these products represent.

----------


## AquaLantern

> I typically stay off of Tumblr since when it comes to comic books I always find this dick raising war between people over who is better or what mentality is best. Like I can't just enjoy both subjects or that I prefer to watch or read something about a character or franchise/brand over another. It's why I got so irritated on here a few days ago when someone brought that kind of topic in a thread about "why ___ can do no wrong" (as I will not dignify that with a full title), as this only invites people to argue over anything and detract from any of the importance these products represent.


What's worse it's the hypocrisy. They feel it's ok to call anyone who like WW over BP dumb little kids who have no taste, but if it were the other way around they would be losing their minds. But I have a feeling that this isn't just a tumblr thing.

Regardless it's still a petty thing to do.

----------


## Ascended

It saddens me how the "culture of tolerance" has become so intolerant. Like, ya'll are missing the point in a major way and need to Google the definition of "tolerance." 

On the Marvel boards a while back, there was a very interesting discussion about the idea of introducing a overweight hero. I was enjoying the conversation until I said that I'd need more of a hook than "This character is fat!" to read it. That's not a hook in my opinion, its a base description of a character's visual. I support diversity, but I dont support bad books and that extends to characters of all races, genders, etc. I'll read a book about a black gay Jewish trans person if it's well made, but I wont read it if its poorly done. And that includes the straight white male characters too; I wont read Superman if the book isnt being done well (and he's my favorite fictional entity ever). 

Apparently that was the wrong mentality to have and I got called all kinds of names, by these people who supposedly support tolerance and understanding and acceptance.  :Confused:

----------


## AquaLantern

> It saddens me how the "culture of tolerance" has become so intolerant. Like, ya'll are missing the point in a major way and need to Google the definition of "tolerance." 
> 
> On the Marvel boards a while back, there was a very interesting discussion about the idea of introducing a overweight hero. I was enjoying the conversation until I said that I'd need more of a hook than "This character is fat!" to read it. That's not a hook in my opinion, its a base description of a character's visual. I support diversity, but I dont support bad books and that extends to characters of all races, genders, etc. I'll read a book about a black gay Jewish trans person if it's well made, but I wont read it if its poorly done. And that includes the straight white male characters too; I wont read Superman if the book isnt being done well (and he's my favorite fictional entity ever). 
> 
> Apparently that was the wrong mentality to have and I got called all kinds of names, by these people who supposedly support tolerance and understanding and acceptance.


Valiant did a good job with the overweight hero Faith Herbert aka Zephyr.

----------


## Ascended

I hear great things about Faith. And I've always had a soft spot for Bouncing Boy as well (but then I love a lot of the silly Silver Age Superman related stuff). But my point here isn't about whether a character who is fat/gay/female/non-white/whatever can be done well (obviously they can and most of my pull is made up of great books featuring such characters) but that I got attacked by so-called "tolerant" people for not sharing their exact same viewpoint. We didn't even disagree; I never said I didnt want to see a fat character, merely that being fat wouldn't be enough for me to read the book. Id need some quality stories for that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It saddens me how the "culture of tolerance" has become so intolerant. Like, ya'll are missing the point in a major way and need to Google the definition of "tolerance."


I saddens me so much that I end up becoming "Hulk level angry."  




> Yeah, if JL is received poorly, unless WB can trace the problem back to some other factor, they'll probably just take it as final confirmation that it's Zack Snyder's name in connection with DCEU films that's causing the problem. Lesson learned? No more Snyder. Wonder Woman has proven that the DCEU isn't inherently flawed. Just that the Zack Snyder approach to these films just isn't what the current audience is really looking for.


JL has a built in scapegoat.  If JL underperforms they will just course correct and cut that tie.  Is that fair?  Probably not.




> So I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but in case you fortunate enough to not venture into Tumblr, there has been a fan war regarding Wonder Woman and Black Panther.
> 
> At first I thought it was just regular DC vs Marvel stuff, but here's how I see the 2 sides:
> 
> If you like WW over BP, you're a huge racist and hate black people.
> 
> If you like BP over WW, you an antisemitic and hate israeli people.
> 
> From what I've had to deal with some people can't understand why some can like WW over BP especially when BP only has one trailer released.
> ...


Sometimes it feels like everyone needs "their" cause to come before others.  Actually WAY more than  sometimes.  I think people are often too quick to cry "racist" or "sexist" that it is taken less seriously by others.  The frequency of racist and sexist claims has made others care less.  In effect the crusade has backfired because it is taken less seriously.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Why can't people accept that people who like one thing over another does not make them racist or sexist or anything like that?
> 
> Why is it so hard to support one thing without degrading the other?


Because for years POC, LGBT & women have endured nonstop backlash, insults, hostility and abuse. 

Any success those POC, LGBT & women have is DEGRADED in the highest order. Nothing is JUDGED on it's content.


And the MAIN folks leading the charge? Folks who have never read the stuff in question. 

Folks who HATE the fact people went NUTS over a film about black folks. 

Folks who HATE the fact a film about a WOMAN is destroying box office expectations.

You got folks who don't like what they are seeing. And they are the most VOCAL in complaints.

So if that is all you hear be it a WW or BP or both fan-you will stay defensive. Because that is all we dealt with for years.

The majority of folks can accept different opinions-you are just dealing with a cesspool know as TUmblr when being anonymous can let you go wild in comments.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Because for years POC, LGBT & women have endured nonstop backlash, insults, hostility and abuse. 
> 
> Any success those POC, LGBT & women have is DEGRADED in the highest order. Nothing is JUDGED on it's content.
> 
> 
> And the MAIN folks leading the charge? Folks who have never read the stuff in question. 
> 
> Folks who HATE the fact people went NUTS over a film about black folks. 
> 
> Folks who HATE the fact a film about a WOMAN is destroying box office expectations.


Reasoning such as this is why some people have stopped listening.  I loved WW but to say that people who didn't like it are sexist is dismissive and ignorant.  I'm pretty sure that I will enjoy Black Panther, but if people don't enjoy it doesn't necessarily make them racist.  I didn't like Luke Cage because it bored me to death ( same with Iron Fist)  not because I didn't like the character.  Iron Fist and  Power Man are two of my favorites from Marvel.   Assuming that everything is tied to racism or sexism is one of the biggest problems in the world today.  People who want to talk about racism and sexism should choose their battles if they don't want to preach to deaf ears... if they want to be smart about it.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> B*ecause for years POC, LGBT & women have endured nonstop backlash, insults, hostility and abuse. 
> 
> Any success those POC, LGBT & women have is DEGRADED in the highest order. Nothing is JUDGED on it's content.*
> 
> 
> And the MAIN folks leading the charge? Folks who have never read the stuff in question. 
> 
> Folks who HATE the fact people went NUTS over a film about black folks. 
> 
> ...


In bold, this has mostly been untrue for decades in Western cultures. It's a flat out generalization and has really only been more common throughout parts of the central and southern U.S. due to religious populations. And even in those parts things have been loosening up for probably 20-30+ years. Other than that, it's an exaggeration and this is where arguments like this lose me. 

Women in the West are the freest and have been for decades, but according to some feminists, you'd think women were treated like dogs (like they really are in some other countries). 
People of color have had the same opportunities most whites have had for decades. 
Do people like you forget there is a poor white population in America? In many cases, they are worse off than POC in the urban communities. But, don't let that fact get in your way. 

Anyway, I'll stop there because this isn't the place for it, but I felt compelled to offer some corrections. 

Anyway, whatever is being reference about these stupid arguments regarding Wonder Woman and BP, just stay away. It's a cesspool of children, man children, fanboys, and probably CIA operatives instilling distractive arguments. 

 :Stick Out Tongue:   :Stick Out Tongue:   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

This thread gets weird sometimes.

----------


## nightrider

> This thread gets weird sometimes.


so weird lol...

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This thread gets weird sometimes.


It's actually better than some others I could mention.  :Smile:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but in case you fortunate enough to not venture into Tumblr, there has been a fan war regarding Wonder Woman and Black Panther.
> 
> At first I thought it was just regular DC vs Marvel stuff, but here's how I see the 2 sides:
> 
> If you like WW over BP, you're a huge racist and hate black people.
> 
> If you like BP over WW, you an antisemitic and hate israeli people.
> 
> From what I've had to deal with some people can't understand why some can like WW over BP especially when BP only has one trailer released.
> ...


Ah tumblr, this is the place which was fuming over Harley Quinn's dignity being compromised when she slept with Deadshot all the while proclaiming Harley x Joker because that is clearly the most dignified of all relationships. Never bothered after that.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

Is it too late to change The Rock's mind and have him be Captain Marvel instead? Yeah, he clearly looks like everything Black Adam, but his personality and comedic timing works with the idea of a man-child way more utilizing his actual on-screen strengths.

----------


## Frontier

> Is it too late to change The Rock's mind and have him be Captain Marvel instead? Yeah, he clearly looks like everything Black Adam, but his personality and comedic timing works with the idea of a man-child way more utilizing his actual on-screen strengths.


At the rate things are going they seem to be treating Adam as if he is the lead of the franchise, rather then Billy, so why not  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Is it too late to change The Rock's mind and have him be Captain Marvel instead? Yeah, he clearly looks like everything Black Adam, but his personality and comedic timing works with the idea of a man-child way more utilizing his actual on-screen strengths.


I'm actually not sure he could pull off a 10 year old vibe. Whereas his performance in the Scorpion King shows he can do ancient-accented badass (even if the movie itself wasn't great.)

----------


## Potanical Pardon

> At the rate things are going they seem to be treating Adam as if he is the lead of the franchise, rather then Billy, so why not ?



Right!

I mean, no matter who they'd pick as Cap, it's always going to be a Rock feature film.




> I'm actually not sure he could pull off a 10 year old vibe. Whereas his performance in the Scorpion King shows he can do ancient-accented badass (even if the movie itself wasn't great.)


He pulls off what a 10 year old thinks an adult acts like in everything he has been in minus Scorpion King and those early bombs of his.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Is it too late to change The Rock's mind and have him be Captain Marvel instead? Yeah, he clearly looks like everything Black Adam, but his personality and comedic timing works with the idea of a man-child way more utilizing his actual on-screen strengths.


I'm beginning to wonder if it may be possible to convince him to bow out of the DCEU altogether. I know he's a huge name right now, but I've heard some good arguments for how he may not be that good for getting us a good quality Shazam/Black Adam story.

1.) Most recently, he's taken some hits at the box office. Even his next movie, Jumanji may or may not go much the same way. By the time these movies come out, his name may not be as helpful as we might think.

2.) He's developing a real ego. He may be poised to take the Fast and Furious franchise away from Vin Diesel, and he's starting to come across like he can do no wrong. If he brings that ego to these movies? He may just not want to allow Black Adam to be portrayed as the villain he's supposed to be. He may push too hard to have Black Adam written as more of an anti-hero, which is fine later on. But in the beginning, at least, Adam's supposed to be a straight villain. 

3.) He may not be too eager to share the spotlight. This is supposed to be Shazam's story, of which he is but a part. However? The Rock may just see to it that it really looks more like these movies are the story of Black Adam. 

I could be totally off the mark, but I've seen other people suggest these things, and I gotta admit they've got me a little worried.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I'm beginning to wonder if it may be possible to convince him to bow out of the DCEU altogether. I know he's a huge name right now, but I've heard some good arguments for how he may not be that good for getting us a good quality Shazam/Black Adam story.
> 
> 1.) Most recently, he's taken some hits at the box office. Even his next movie, Jumanji may or may not go much the same way. By the time these movies come out, his name may not be as helpful as we might think.
> 
> 2.) He's developing a real ego. He may be poised to take the Fast and Furious franchise away from Vin Diesel, and he's starting to come across like he can do no wrong. If he brings that ego to these movies? He may just not want to allow Black Adam to be portrayed as the villain he's supposed to be. He may push too hard to have Black Adam written as more of an anti-hero, which is fine later on. But in the beginning, at least, Adam's supposed to be a straight villain. 
> 
> 3.) He may not be too eager to share the spotlight. This is supposed to be Shazam's story, of which he is but a part. However? The Rock may just see to it that it really looks more like these movies are the story of Black Adam. 
> 
> I could be totally off the mark, but I've seen other people suggest these things, and I gotta admit they've got me a little worried.


I cant argue about point 1, his draw power may or may not be significant with in a few years but

He's not egotistical and never has been. Fast and Furious got a huge bump when he came on board and him and Statham are naturally poised to take over. Its not really about ego, more like natural progession. If anything Diesel needs to bow out respectfully. He made the last movie almost entirely about himself and the one before that barely had Johnson.

He doesn't need to do this, Johns has already done it. JSA,52, Dark Reign,Forever Evil. Adam has completely overshadowed Billy and he did it without Rock.

----------


## Tec15

Ah yes. Make up our own fan fiction inside our heads and then preemptively "get worried" based on that. Where would this thread be without it?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I cant argue about point 1, his draw power may or may not be significant with in a few years but
> 
> He's not egotistical and never has been. Fast and Furious got a huge bump when he came on board and him and Statham are naturally poised to take over. Its not really about ego, more like natural progession. If anything Diesel needs to bow out respectfully. He made the last movie almost entirely about himself and the one before that barely had Johnson.
> 
> He doesn't need to do this, Johns has already done it. JSA,52, Dark Reign,Forever Evil. Adam has completely overshadowed Billy and he did it without Rock.


You may have a point. Two of them, actually. 

He certainly didn't seem to have a problem sharing the spotlight in Moana, come to think of it. Yeah, he was a show stealer in that movie, but there was no denying that the movie was, first and foremost, about Moana. 

Also true about Johns. It's easy enough to see why Black Adam has been getting such a push: properly written, he can be an utterly fascinating anti-hero/villain. A lot of the rest of Injustice 2's writing is hot garbage, but Black Adam's representation in the game is really good stuff. It may just be that writers in general and Johns in specific see more potential in Adam than they do in Billy. 

Hopefully they'll figure out a way to make both characters work.

----------


## Frontier

> He doesn't need to do this, Johns has already done it. JSA,52, Dark Reign,Forever Evil. Adam has completely overshadowed Billy and he did it without Rock.


But when it came down to actually writing Shazam, Johns ultimately still had Billy be the lead and best Adam in the end. 

I mean, people complain about how much Johns focusedon Sinestro and how he overshadowed Hal, but ultimately I think Johns understood that Sinestro is not the lead of that franchise, like I imagine he does Billy. 

Most of the books you mentioned there were not Shazam books with Billy in the lead but team books or ensemble settings where Adam just happened to appear.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Anyone else think having a World's Finest film would be a wonderful thing? It would be a fitting juxtaposition to BvS. Could follow Loeb's first arc, Public Enemies.

----------


## Frontier

> Anyone else think having a World's Finest film would be a wonderful thing? It would be a fitting juxtaposition to BvS. Could follow Loeb's first arc, Public Enemies.


I wouldn't be against a fun Superman and Batman team-up movie  :Smile: .

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Also, as much as I like the idea of Deathstroke for The Batman, I feel that Deathstroke has outgrown just being a Batman villain. I think a solo film that examines his insanely complicated and conflicted personality would be an amazing character study. It would keep the audience guessing as to whether or not he's good, bad or soulless.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I wouldn't be against a fun Superman and Batman team-up movie .


Their partnership and friendship is among my favorite things in comics. Hate, hate, hate when they're pitted against each other.

----------


## Powertool

> Their partnership and friendship is among my favorite things in comics. Hate, hate, hate when they're pitted against each other.


Seven decades of Superman/Batman team-ups and there's no better storyline to adapt than that awfully contrived dumpster fire?  :Mad:

----------


## nightbird

> Also, as much as I like the idea of Deathstroke for The Batman, I feel that Deathstroke has outgrown just being a Batman villain. I think a solo film that examines his insanely complicated and conflicted personality would be an amazing character study. It would keep the audience guessing as to whether or not he's good, bad or soulless.


Deathstroke should be first introduced as mercenary/bad guy/villain in one/several DCEU movie/s. I can see him getting solo later though, but not in upcoming 5 years.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I wouldn't be against a fun Superman and Batman team-up movie .


I wouldn't be against a not-so-fun movie, either (but no more fighting each other!  :Smile: )

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Seven decades of Superman/Batman team-ups and there's no better storyline to adapt than that awfully contrived dumpster fire?


It's the most overrated comic.

----------


## Ascended

> You may have a point. Two of them, actually. 
> 
> He certainly didn't seem to have a problem sharing the spotlight in Moana, come to think of it. Yeah, he was a show stealer in that movie, but there was no denying that the movie was, first and foremost, about Moana.


On top of that, Moana was Johnson's pitch; he's the one who went to Disney with the story idea. So he pitched a story where his character wasn't the lead. I think his ego is under control. And he's a really nice guy, so even if he does have an ego I think there's probably still a balance there.

Its not the Rock I would be worried about, it'd be WB/DC. Clearly they dont see much value in Shazam. When was the last time he had a solo title? How many years have we been waiting for the follow up to the Justice League backup story from the first year or two of the New52? When was the last time Billy got a major push and a high-grade creative team on his own book? 

Black Adam is the character WB/DC are interested in, not Billy. I wouldnt even be surprised if Billy ended up getting written out of the DCEU completely and Black Adam was established as the main character in his own film.

----------


## Frontier

> On top of that, Moana was Johnson's pitch; he's the one who went to Disney with the story idea. So he pitched a story where his character wasn't the lead. I think his ego is under control. And he's a really nice guy, so even if he does have an ego I think there's probably still a balance there.
> 
> Its not the Rock I would be worried about, it'd be WB/DC. Clearly they dont see much value in Shazam. When was the last time he had a solo title? How many years have we been waiting for the follow up to the Justice League backup story from the first year or two of the New52? *When was the last time Billy got a major push* and a high-grade creative team on his own book? 
> 
> Black Adam is the character WB/DC are interested in, not Billy. I wouldnt even be surprised if Billy ended up getting written out of the DCEU completely and Black Adam was established as the main character in his own film.


Does being the focal point of the _Justice League Action_ hour-long US premiere count  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Black_Adam

Billy *and* Shazam are clearly visible in the new DCEU Intro, they are not going to get rid of him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy6tXjaI1aY

The Marvel family may be missing from Rebirth but it's a forgone conclusion they will be back. 




> Ah yes. Make up our own fan fiction inside our heads and then preemptively "get worried" based on that. Where would this thread be without it?


You pretty much nailed it, same thing every time. This thread is becoming as bad as SHH.

----------


## Troian

There is a rumour from reddit for a potential list of actreses for Batgirl. Don't know if its true or not but the list includes that 13 reasons why actress and one of the Fanning sisters.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> You may have a point. Two of them, actually. 
> 
> He certainly didn't seem to have a problem sharing the spotlight in Moana, come to think of it. Yeah, he was a show stealer in that movie, but there was no denying that the movie was, first and foremost, about Moana. 
> 
> Also true about Johns. It's easy enough to see why Black Adam has been getting such a push: properly written, he can be an utterly fascinating anti-hero/villain. A lot of the rest of Injustice 2's writing is hot garbage, but Black Adam's representation in the game is really good stuff. It may just be that writers in general and Johns in specific see more potential in Adam than they do in Billy. 
> 
> Hopefully they'll figure out a way to make both characters work.


Because there is more potential storytelling with Black Adam. Easily, and it's not even close.

Shazam can still have his movie, but BA is naturally more interesting.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Because there is more potential storytelling with Black Adam. Easily, and it's not even close.
> 
> Shazam can still have his movie, but BA is naturally more interesting.


I always wondered why the DCEU didn't just use Black Adam in a similar way as the MCU uses Loki---a solid villain that cuts across multiple movies. Could have used him as the primary villain for JL if you wanted.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I always wondered why the DCEU didn't just use Black Adam in a similar way as the MCU uses Loki---a solid villain that cuts across multiple movies. Could have used him as the primary villain for JL if you wanted.


They still could do that, honestly. I personally hope they'll use the Darkseid storyline as kind of a slow burn. I don't want Darkseid to show up in JL 2 and give us another Justice League: War story where he just floats around blowing stuff up until the League manages to shove him through a Boom Tube. Darkseid is much more interesting when he plays the long game, with some actual schemes and plans along the way. 

In other words? There should be plenty of openings for other villains to get some spotlight. Adam is a great idea for a recurring villain because he's a walking, talking cautionary tale for the League and other heroes. He was a hero, once upon a time. In some ways he still IS a hero. There should be no question of the fact that he loves Khandaq and his people or that he tries to do right by them. He's just a hero who's definition of "justice" happens to be about 5000 years out of date. He's a case study in what happens if heroes take their mandate to defend the world too far. 

I'd love to see him make at least an appearance or two in a few different movies. Right now, I'd love to see him interact with Wonder Woman. The conversations they could have! Adam, who used his godlike power to crush his enemies and rule his people, versus Wonder Woman, who used her godlike power subtly, never once seeking any kind of personal power for herself. Two gods basically having a conversation about how, or IF, mortals should be ruled. 

So, yeah. Adam may very well start showing up elsewhere as well.

----------


## Ascended

> Does being the focal point of the _Justice League Action_ hour-long US premiere count ?


Thats the new Cartoon Network show right? The one that gets no advertising and airs at a really weird time so no one is awake to watch it?

I dont watch it, Im seriously asking.

If so.....then.....sorta? I dunno if I'd call that a push but it's still good to see for Billy's fans.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Thats the new Cartoon Network show right? The one that gets no advertising and airs at a really weird time so no one is awake to watch it?
> 
> I dont watch it, Im seriously asking.
> 
> If so.....then.....sorta? I dunno if I'd call that a push but it's still good to see for Billy's fans.


Yep. That's the show. 

And yes, Frontier is correct. Billy was the focus of a four-episode arc. Black Adam was there too, but honestly they made him kind of cartoonishly evil. Definitely not one of the good portrayals of Adam. Billy, on the other hand was pretty great. 

I'm honestly at a loss to explain how WB is allowing CN to treat DC shows so badly. They want to grow their products, right? CN is actively hindering their efforts to do so, and at a time when comic book shows and movies are insanely popular no less. You'd think WB would be telling the guys at CN "You WILL promote these shows better, or we'll fire you and bring in people who will!"

----------


## The Kid

> I'm honestly at a loss to explain how WB is allowing CN to treat DC shows so badly. They want to grow their products, right? CN is actively hindering their efforts to do so, and at a time when comic book shows and movies are insanely popular no less. You'd think WB would be telling the guys at CN "You WILL promote these shows better, or we'll fire you and bring in people who will!"


I think most subsidiaries retain autonomy over their business decisions as long as the profit margins are healthy.

----------


## godisawesome

And don't forget that Cartoon Netwrok felt totally fine with cancelling Young Justice and Green Lantern after it was clear they deliberately sabotaged their weekly airings. CN has autonomy probably above DC because it's a cable channel.

----------


## The Kid

> And don't forget that Cartoon Netwrok felt totally fine with cancelling Young Justice and Green Lantern after it was clear they deliberately sabotaged their weekly airings. CN has autonomy probably above DC because it's a cable channel.


That too. Shows like CN and HBO pretty much have full authority to make whatever decisions they want. Bothers me for CN because they always screw over DC shows but then I remember if WB started interfering with CN, that could mean HBO getting interfered by WB... and HELL NO.

----------


## Frontier

> *Because there is more potential storytelling with Black Adam. Easily, and it's not even close.*
> 
> Shazam can still have his movie, but BA is naturally more interesting.


I very much disagree with this. 

Between the Marvel Family, the villains, and his supporting cast there's plenty of cool, interesting, stuff to work with as far as Billy is concerned.

You can prefer Adam as a character but there's still plenty of value in Billy as the lead of this franchise, especially since he's been doing it long before Black Adam started dominating the story and hogging the limelight. 




> They still could do that, honestly. I personally hope they'll use the Darkseid storyline as kind of a slow burn. I don't want Darkseid to show up in JL 2 and give us another Justice League: War story where he just floats around blowing stuff up until the League manages to shove him through a Boom Tube. Darkseid is much more interesting when he plays the long game, with some actual schemes and plans along the way.


I honestly want to see the League fight Darkseid just to get a more satisfying fight out of it then what we had in _War_ or _Justice League Origins_. 




> Thats the new Cartoon Network show right? The one that gets no advertising and airs at a really weird time so no one is awake to watch it?


And still gets pretty solid ratings, last I checked  :Smile: .



> And yes, Frontier is correct. Billy was the focus of a four-episode arc. Black Adam was there too, but honestly they made him kind of cartoonishly evil. Definitely not one of the good portrayals of Adam. Billy, on the other hand was pretty great.


I honestly appreciated that they went with a more classic villain portrayal for Adam, particularly given it put Billy squarely back in the lead and heroic role against his Archenemy. 

My only real issue was Gary Cole's performance, because he was a really weird choice for that role, but he also grew on me.

----------


## Punisher007

Black Adam is cool because you can use him in a number of different ways:

-As a straight villain.
-As a sympathetic/nuanced villain.
-As an anti-hero.
-Etc.

Also The Rock has wanted to play him for years.  New Line Cinema was going to make a (then called) Captain Marvel movie awhile back (which apparently got cancelled after the success of TDK), and The Rock had agreed to play Black Adam in that movie as well.

----------


## BlackClaw

> And don't forget that Cartoon Netwrok felt totally fine with cancelling Young Justice and Green Lantern after it was clear they deliberately sabotaged their weekly airings. CN has autonomy probably above DC because it's a cable channel.


I gave up completely on Cartoon Network after it became the Teen Titans Go channel. Thank god Greg Weisman wiser up and decided to move Young Justice season 3 to a streaming service.

----------


## yohyoi

I see Black Adam as a more douchy Namor. I don't know why. I just do.

----------


## The Kid

> I see Black Adam as a *more douchy Namor*. I don't know why. I just do.


Is that even possible  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> I gave up completely on Cartoon Network after it became the Teen Titans Go channel. Thank god Greg Weisman wiser up and decided to move Young Justice season 3 to a streaming service.


I don't think that was up to him, but I think Warner Bros. is trying to find different ways of releasing major DC content without relying on CN.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Because there is more potential storytelling with Black Adam. Easily, and it's not even close.
> 
> Shazam can still have his movie, but BA is naturally more interesting.


Completely disagree. Shazam (Captain Marvel) was one of the most popular superheroes of the golden age and has mountains and interesting stories, supporting characters, and lore. As much as I like Black Adam he was never the type of character to hold his own franchise and a lot of his likability came from how he bounced off other characters. It's disappointing how little progress has been made on the _Shazam!_ movie since I think it could have the potential to be a really cool, new franchise for Warner Bros. and DC as a brand. He outsold Superman for a long time obviously is likable, he's just underexposed.

----------


## Robotman

I think the problem right now is that "Shazam" doesn't even have a proper name. I hate the fact that he's just called Shazam. I'm thinking that WB/DC aren't too happy about it either as he's been noticeably shelved. He's not even in Injustice. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to move forward with the character. They should just call him Captain Thunder.

----------


## Frontier

> I think the problem right now is that "Shazam" doesn't even have a proper name. I hate the fact that he's just called Shazam. I'm thinking that WB/DC aren't too happy about it either as he's been noticeably shelved. He's not even in Injustice. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to move forward with the character. They should just call him Captain Thunder.


There's a _Justice League Action_ episode that points out just how silly and impractical his codename being "Shazam" is  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Ascended

> I think the problem right now is that "Shazam" doesn't even have a proper name. I hate the fact that he's just called Shazam. I'm thinking that WB/DC aren't too happy about it either as he's been noticeably shelved. He's not even in Injustice. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to move forward with the character. They should just call him Captain Thunder.


I believe the rights to the Captain Thunder name are held by someone else.....a paper-and-pencil RPG company called Green Ronin or something I believe. Could be totally wrong though.

As for the Shazam movie....I think the path is painfully obvious; you run with Johns' New52 story. It's obviously a pitch for a movie, it's got a really great Harry Potter vibe, cute themes that'd work really well for a winter release (another Potter tradition worth stealing) and Billy has a clear character arc that leaves him where he should be (Johns failed to live up to that afterwards but that shouldn't reflect on the original story). Yeah, its not a perfect story and you'd have to change a few things, but its about as solid a movie treatment as you're likely to get.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think the problem right now is that "Shazam" doesn't even have a proper name. I hate the fact that he's just called Shazam. I'm thinking that WB/DC aren't too happy about it either as he's been noticeably shelved. He's not even in Injustice. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to move forward with the character. They should just call him Captain Thunder.


How does he not have a proper name?

----------


## Robotman

> How does he not have a proper name?


He's the Scooby Doo of superheroes. Running around shouting his own name as an exclamation.

----------


## Agent Z

> He's the Scooby Doo of superheroes. Running around shouting his own name as an exclamation.


What better way to make sure everyone knows what your name is  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Flyattractor

> What better way to make sure everyone knows what your name is


Maybe if Billy did it with a silly speech impediment...

----------


## Ascended

> He's the Scooby Doo of superheroes. Running around shouting his own name as an exclamation.


At least he can say his name without calling the lightning. Remember how Freddy couldn't even tell people who he was because of that?  :Smile: 

Shazam isn't the best name ever but I dont have a problem with it. Marvel bought the Captain Marvel name long before DC bought the Fawcett IP's, Captain Thunder is held by another company.....there's not a ton of good names for Billy that DC could use, and at least Shazam has a history in the franchise, its not just some random title they cooked up like "Captain Hero-Man!" or something.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> I see Black Adam as a more douchy Namor. I don't know why. I just do.


Bigger Ego? Sure I agree. More douchy? Nah Wife chasing/City flooding Namor beats Teth pretty handily

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Green Lantern Corps Has Found A Director & Character Breakdowns*

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Wyatt for GLC, Reeves for Batman? Maybe we should thank the reboot of the Apes  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Robotman

> I see Black Adam as a more douchy Namor. I don't know why. I just do.


When Johns turned Black Adam into an anti-hero he basically gave him Namor's personality and character traits. Obviously they shared similar character designs. But Johns made him all about protecting his kingdom by any means necessary. Helping the heroes but mostly being on his own side.

----------


## Johnny

> *Green Lantern Corps Has Found A Director & Character Breakdowns*


Are these guys reliable?

----------


## Johnny

Nevermind, Collider just shot it down.

----------


## Styles

Matt Reeves teases 'very emotional' Batman story, pays tribute to Christopher Nolan

----------


## Doctor Know

DCEU just crossed the $3 billion mark, in just 4 movies. 

MOS - $668,045,518
BvS - $873,260,194	 
SS - $745,600,054	 
WW - $713,894,475 * Still in theaters. 

Come on JL. Make it $4 billion for the win.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> DCEU just crossed the $3 billion mark, in just 4 movies. 
> 
> MOS - $668,045,518
> BvS - $873,260,194	 
> SS - $745,600,054	 
> WW - $713,894,475 * Still in theaters. 
> 
> Come on JL. Make it $4 billion for the win.


It will all come down to the reviews in determining if JL will make that much money. If it gets picked apart like BvS then forget about it.

----------


## Troian

At this point all JL needs is to be a generic origin story with humor sprinkled in like Wonder Woman if they want to ensure good reviews.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It will all come down to the reviews in determining if JL will make that much money. If it gets picked apart like BvS then forget about it.


Picked apart BvS still made just under 900m, goodwill from WW should see them over the line (if JL gets bad reviews).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> At this point all JL needs is to be a generic origin story with humor sprinkled in like Wonder Woman if they want to ensure good reviews.


That looks like what it's going to be. "Avengers at Night". I'm sure I'll like it but a complete 180 would be a turnoff.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I wonder if Leto's Joker will show up next with no tattoos. Given Geoff Johns mandate about having characters look more like their comic counterparts, I wonder if they'll clean up the biggest offender of comic deviation. Perhaps he gets another chemical bath that bleaches over the tats?

----------


## Doctor Know

> I wonder if Leto's Joker will show up next with no tattoos. Given Geoff Johns mandate about having characters look more like their comic counterparts, I wonder if they'll clean up the biggest offender of comic deviation. Perhaps he gets another chemical bath that bleaches over the tats?


That's funny if that's Johns' mandate. Since Rebirth affirmed there are 3 Jokers running around at the same time.

----------


## Troian

What do you think dom/foreign spilt will be for JL?

So far it seems the DOM/For spilt has been fairly even or not too far off from 50/50. My guess is 35-40Dom/60-65 foreign.

----------


## golgi

Dang, Wonder Woman will PASS GOTG Vol. 2 soon.




> DAY 33
> 
> 
> 
> 358.1 M GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY II
> 
> 354.6 M WONDER WOMAN

----------


## Troian

Good for WW. I just realized though, recent estimates showed that the Dom/Foreign numbers were roughly the same. I guess The Mummy, Despicable Me 3 and Transformers all did kind of hurt it (I say kind of) internationally, but domestically its going strong thats for sure.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Dang, Wonder Woman will PASS GOTG Vol. 2 soon.


WW's at 356.6 (before Thursday).




> I wonder if Leto's Joker will show up next with no tattoos. Given Geoff Johns mandate about having characters look more like their comic counterparts, I wonder if they'll clean up the biggest offender of comic deviation. Perhaps he gets another chemical bath that bleaches over the tats?


Those are Oscar winning tats lol

----------


## Johnny

> Dang, Wonder Woman will PASS GOTG Vol. 2 soon.

----------


## Mister Ferro

WW made almost $2 million Thursday even with Spidey. Safe to say that Homecoming (what a terrible name) should not hurt WW badly and $400 million DOM chances are still very much in play.

----------


## Styles



----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


When you can easily distinguish Mera in a crowd from a considerable distance away through very crappy resolution, you know they're doing Mera right!  :Smile:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Ahh Warner Bros. Damn missed it  :Frown:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Ahh Warner Bros. Damn missed it


What are you talking about?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> What are you talking about?


WB blocked the video but it's now unblocked again all is good.  :Smile:

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Warner Bros. Bringing JUSTICE LEAGUE And AQUAMAN To Hall H For Comic-Con*




> As has now become commonplace, many studios will be sitting Comic-Con out this year. However, both Marvel Studios and Warner Bros. will be taking over Hall H and Deadline reports that the latter has big plans for those in attendance at 11am on Saturday morning. It appears they're definitely attempting to steal the show, anyway, as their DC Comics slate will be taking centre stage in a very significant way.
> 
> Apparently, the Justice League cast will be there with Ben Affleck (Batman), Gal Gadot (Wonder Woman), Jason Momoa (Aquaman), Ezra Miller (The Flash) and Ray Fisher (Cyborg) all in attendance. 
> 
> It's not clear whether they'll be joined by Zack Snyder, Joss Whedon, or both, but it was at last year's Comic-Con that we got a first look at the movie so a new trailer is pretty much a guarantee. Aquaman will also be getting the spotlight and considering the fact Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and Justice League all debuted trailers there, chances are we'll be taking our first trip to Atlantis in San Diego.


Source

----------


## Johnny

I guess Henry is busy with M:I6.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I guess Henry is busy with M:I6.


Or he could be a surprise? Wasn't he a surprise last year?

Anyway? With this many Leaguers in one spot, you know we're getting a new trailer. Maybe even an Aquaman teaser since they felt the need to address his presence separately.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Or he could be a surprise? Wasn't he a surprise last year?
> 
> Anyway? With this many Leaguers in one spot, you know we're getting a new trailer. Maybe even an Aquaman teaser since they felt the need to address his presence separately.


I suspect everything you mention is the case.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Exclusive: Justice League toy gives great look at villain Steppenwolf: http://batman-news.com/2017/07/08/ju...action-figure/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Exclusive: ‘Justice League’ toy gives great look at villain Steppenwolf: http://batman-news.com/2017/07/08/ju...action-figure/


Hmmm. I like that he doesn't look like a Giger-esque monster this time around. Still? He looks a little too much like a Star Trek alien in the face. I dunno, I get more of an "alien" vibe from him, and I definitely want the New Gods/Apokoliptians to be GODS. Big time, full-on, "mightier than thou" Gods.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Hmmm. I like that he doesn't look like a Giger-esque monster this time around. Still? He looks a little too much like a Star Trek alien in the face. I dunno, I get more of an "alien" vibe from him, and I definitely want the New Gods/Apokoliptians to be GODS. Big time, full-on, "mightier than thou" Gods.


He does look mythic to me. Reminds me more of an ancient Tolkien being rather than a Star Trek character.

----------


## Outside_85

> Hmmm. I like that he doesn't look like a Giger-esque monster this time around. Still? He looks a little too much like a Star Trek alien in the face. I dunno, I get more of an "alien" vibe from him, and I definitely want the New Gods/Apokoliptians to be GODS. Big time, full-on, "mightier than thou" Gods.


I think it's a nice compromise between Kirby's general depiction as the New Gods looking mostly human, but some having certain traits that mark them out as something else. That said I am not sure how much we should put in these designs since the Ares action figure didn't really look all that much like the Ares that appeared on screen in WW:

Btw, if he had been a Geiger-esque monster then somewhere in the design would be something that looked like a penis.  :Smile:  So more Predator than Xenomorph.

----------


## dietrich

> Those are Oscar winning tats lol


Ikr. I actually like the tats and Leto's Joker like Miller's Joker.

----------


## dietrich

> I wonder if Leto's Joker will show up next with no tattoos. Given Geoff Johns mandate about having characters look more like their comic counterparts, I wonder if they'll clean up the biggest offender of comic deviation. Perhaps he gets another chemical bath that bleaches over the tats?


Joker isn't the biggest offender. Aquaman looks nothing like his comic counterpart and that works. The tats aren't that big a deal if the actor puts in a great joker performance.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Joker isn't the biggest offender. Aquaman looks nothing like his comic counterpart and that works. The tats aren't that big a deal if the actor puts in a great joker performance.


Momoa looks pretty 90's Aquaman. It kind of irks me when people just compare him to the classic version then say he "looks nothing like the comics".



But I agree the performance is far more important and we have yet to see what Leto can truly do, even though I liked what I saw.

----------


## Frontier

> Exclusive: ‘Justice League’ toy gives great look at villain Steppenwolf: http://batman-news.com/2017/07/08/ju...action-figure/


...I'll need to see how he looks in the actual movies before I make any judgements. 



> Joker isn't the biggest offender. Aquaman looks nothing like his comic counterpart and that works. The tats aren't that big a deal if the actor puts in a great joker performance.


Aquaman evokes Peter David's Savage Aquaman look-wise. 

Personality-wise it's hard to get a read on him from what we've seen, but he looks like a mix between the aformentioned version and a subdued take on _Brave and the Bold_ Aquaman.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> It will all come down to the reviews in determining if JL will make that much money. If it gets picked apart like BvS then forget about it.


Buh...Buh...But it's a dismal failure! Superman murders people! It's so horrible! Who cares how much money it's making? Wonder Woman was just a fluke. Justice league will bomb so big Warner's will be forced to cancel all future DCEU films forever and sell the film rights to Disney so they can do DC superhero films right...And stuff!

#manofmurder #hoboofsteel #notmuhSuperman #notmuhbatman #notmuhjoker #dceusuxz



 :Wink:

----------


## Outside_85

> Joker isn't the biggest offender. Aquaman looks nothing like his comic counterpart and that works. The tats aren't that big a deal if the actor puts in a great joker performance.


I dont get that complaint about how Aquaman looks tbh, since they are just following in line with the 90'ties Aquaman, who also inspired the Justice League Aquaman which I think is the one most people think of as the 'proper' Aquaman (rather than treat him as a joke character from the much older Superfriends).

Plus I think the beard is simply there so people might not wonder what Captain America is doing talking to the sea monkeys  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

Wonder Woman passes Suicide Squad Worldwide; Is Expected to pass Guardians of the Galaxy 2 and Win the Summer in North America

----------


## golgi

Damn. I never expected wonder woman to beat GOTG and Spiderman. 




> Box Office: 'Wonder Woman' Is Now All But Certain To Win The Summer


https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcom....facebook.com/

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Johnny

Go Diana!

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Ok, I _know_ it shouldn't be about fandom wars and it's petty and everything...

but Diana potentially beating Spider-Man and the GoTG just feels _sooooooooooo_ good.

----------


## Jaddor

> I dont get that complaint about how Aquaman looks tbh, since they are just following in line with the 90'ties Aquaman, who also inspired the Justice League Aquaman which I think is the one most people think of as the 'proper' Aquaman (rather than treat him as a joke character from the much older Superfriends).
> 
> Plus I think the beard is simply there so people might not wonder what Captain America is doing talking to the sea monkeys


I find aquaman to be one tough cookie to pull off. the film looks almost impossible to be good

----------


## Outside_85

> Ok, I _know_ it shouldn't be about fandom wars and it's petty and everything...
> 
> but Diana potentially beating Spider-Man and the GoTG just feels _sooooooooooo_ good.


Not to rain on the parade too much, but Spiderman has just been released, there is no telling how high it will reach. If Spider-fatigue will wear it out or not.

----------


## golgi

> Not to rain on the parade too much, but Spiderman has just been released, there is no telling how high it will reach. If Spider-fatigue will wear it out or not.


Spider-Man did lower than expected for some people. It should do 325-350. Its not having a 3.0 multiplier.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Wonder Woman passes Suicide Squad Worldwide; Is Expected to pass Guardians of the Galaxy 2 and Win the Summer in North America


It's too early to tell with Spider-Man _just_ coming out but that's definitely cool news and a great win for DC.

----------


## JediKage

> Ok, I _know_ it shouldn't be about fandom wars and it's petty and everything...
> 
> but Diana potentially beating Spider-Man and the GoTG just feels _sooooooooooo_ good.


Spider-man sure... GOtG not so much considering no one knew he they were 5 years ago.

----------


## dietrich

> Momoa looks pretty 90's Aquaman. It kind of irks me when people just compare him to the classic version then say he "looks nothing like the comics".
> 
> 
> 
> But I agree the performance is far more important and we have yet to see what Leto can truly do, even though I liked what I saw.





> ...I'll need to see how he looks in the actual movies before I make any judgements. 
> 
> Aquaman evokes Peter David's Savage Aquaman look-wise. 
> 
> Personality-wise it's hard to get a read on him from what we've seen, but he looks like a mix between the aformentioned version and a subdued take on _Brave and the Bold_ Aquaman.





> I dont get that complaint about how Aquaman looks tbh, since they are just following in line with the 90'ties Aquaman, who also inspired the Justice League Aquaman which I think is the one most people think of as the 'proper' Aquaman (rather than treat him as a joke character from the much older Superfriends).
> 
> Plus I think the beard is simply there so people might not wonder what Captain America is doing talking to the sea monkeys


It's not a complaint. I love Jason as Aquaman and Leto's Joker with the tats is like Miller's Joker with the tats. I'm just saying that superficial deviations are not as important as the actors performance and that Joker isn't the only one that's had changes.

I liked the little I saw of Leto's Joker. Tats, grills and all.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Ikr. I actually like the tats and Leto's Joker like Miller's Joker.


The "tats" didn't win the Oscar, the hairstylists did. I think its friggin' amazing they copied *Capullo's haircut* from the comics.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The "tats" didn't win the Oscar, the hairstylists did. I think its friggin' amazing they copied *Capullo's haircut* from the comics.


It was for Hairstyling AND Make-Up lol. The tats fall under Make-Up, don't they?

Yeah, a lot of the looks were copied from elsewhere, like Harley's look being a more appealing take on her appearance in the _Arkham_ sequels. Not that I expect the Academy voters to be aware of all of this  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

This is an insanely negative and biased article against the DCEU. The main point was that the actor playing Steppenwolf never met the cast...meaning it's al green screen.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/10/j...ion-capture/#2

----------


## Confuzzled

Uh who cares? We don't even know how many scenes there are of Steppenwolf interacting face to face with members of the League.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Uh who cares? We don't even know how many scenes there are of Steppenwolf interacting face to face with members of the League.


That's what I'm getting at...horrible article written to disparage the DCEU.

----------


## The Kid

> Spider-man sure... GOtG not so much considering no one knew he they were 5 years ago.


Irrelevant since people know who they are now. Guardians is the most successful Marvel franchise outside of Avengers and Iron Man. It is *very* impressive that Wonder Woman will outgross it domestically

----------


## Troian

Screen rant claims WW 2 may be set in the 80s near the end of the Cold War. I hope it's just a rumor and nothing more. Do not want another period piece.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Spider-man sure... GOtG not so much considering no one knew he they were 5 years ago.


Considering how unexpectedly huge GoTG got, it doesn't really matter that people didn't know who they were 5 years ago, because they were household names by the time of the sequel. Especially as they were attached to the already incredibly popular MCU brand.

----------


## Troian

> Considering how unexpectedly huge GoTG got, it doesn't really matter that people didn't know who they were 5 years ago, because they were household names by the time of the sequel. Especially as they were attached to the already incredibly popular MCU brand.


But as far as NA is concerned, WW is arguably bigger than GoTG and the fact that this movie drew in an older audience and many women and had very good staying power proved it. But her beating MCU Spidey? Not really surprised if that is true given potential fatigue. 

Foreign markets are a different story though. But I'm glad for Diana.

----------


## The Kid

> But as far as NA is concerned, WW is arguably bigger than GoTG and the fact that this movie drew in an older audience and many women and had very good staying power proved it. But her beating MCU Spidey? Not really surprised if that is true given potential fatigue. 
> 
> Foreign markets are a different story though. But I'm glad for Diana.


Not anymore though. If it had beat GOTG 1 I'd agree with you but the success of the first movie made the Guardians a household name. I mean we talking 400 million dollars here

----------


## Rogue Star

I knew once the reviews started rolling in Guardians 2 was going to fall way short of expectations and not hit a billion (was I wrong?  I haven't been keeping up).  That doesn't take anything away from Wonder Woman though.  If anything this proves what people have been saying all along - just make movies that people want to see and they'll give you their money; the critic bias complaint is a crutch. People just like feeling like everyone is against them.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I knew once the reviews started rolling in Guardians 2 was going to fall way short of expectations and not hit a billion (was I wrong?  I haven't been keeping up).  That doesn't take anything away from Wonder Woman though.  If anything this proves what people have been saying all along - just make movies that people want to see and they'll give you their money; the critic bias complaint is a crutch. People just like feeling like everyone is against them.


Your argument about the crutch is odd. Critics, more often than not, like the movies "that people want to see" too. Therefore, you accomplish that one thing and it creates an echo chamber that is beneficial to your product.

----------


## Troian

> Not anymore though. If it had beat GOTG 1 I'd agree with you but the success of the first movie made the Guardians a household name. I mean we talking 400 million dollars here


While they're both household names now and got generally positive reviews, WW still has that iconic status and while Gotg and the sequel had the MCU/Disney name behind it, WW is in a film universe that people made jokes about and had released 3 mixed-negatively reviewed films by both the general public and the critics and still made that much money. I guess we'll just agree to disagree? I can to an extent understand what you're saying. 

All in all I'll stop arguing because I'm glad WWs having this success.

----------


## golgi

WW will be the leggiest super hero movie ever.




> Superhero - Origin
> 
> 
> Rank 	Title (click to view) 	Studio 	Lifetime Gross / Theaters 	Opening / Theaters 	Date
> 1 	Spider-Man 	Sony 	$403,706,375 	3,876 	$114,844,116 	3,615 	5/3/02
> 2 	Wonder Woman 	WB 	$368,786,191 	4,165 	$103,251,471 	4,165 	6/2/17
> 3 	Deadpool 	Fox 	$363,070,709 	3,856 	$132,434,639 	3,558 	2/12/16
> 4 	Guardians of the Galaxy 	BV 	$333,176,600 	4,088 	$94,320,883 	4,080 	8/1/14
> 5 	Suicide Squad 	WB 	$325,100,054 	4,255 	$133,682,248 	4,255 	8/5/16
> ...

----------


## The Kid

Holy crap I never realized how successful Batman 89 was. That movie was a phenomenon

----------


## Bukdiah

> Holy crap I never realized how successful Batman 89 was. That movie was a phenomenon


Batmania caught it's second wind when that movie came out. The merchandising alone was ridiculous.

----------


## golgi

Adjusted for inflation, Batman made 556 million at the BO.

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Classy move, Mr. Reynolds! 

Terrible pun, however!  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

> I knew once the reviews started rolling in Guardians 2 was going to fall way short of expectations and not hit a billion (was I wrong?  I haven't been keeping up).


A lot of MCU fans got carried away with their Guardians 2 predictions. Other than Star Wars, space operas don't tend to be massive in international markets. And even SW underperforms in regions like China.

It's also for that reason why I don't think even a well-made Green Lantern film is going to be that huge. At least nowhere on a level to challenge the Trinity at their most potent. I see even Aquaman and Flash being more successful.

----------


## Rogue Star

> WW will be the leggiest super hero movie ever.


How did Dr. Strange even get on that list? It was good but it wasn't anywhere near what it could have been.

----------


## Confuzzled

> How did Dr. Strange even get on that list? It was good but it wasn't anywhere near what it could have been.


It released at a time when competition was far less (early November). I think Black Panther will push it out come February, making its stay in the list just 3 months over a year.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Kathryn Winnick (Lagertha from Vikings) has stated that she has some kind of "secret project" in the works that will be revealed in a couple weeks at Comic-Con. 

Possible theory? Black Canary.




Dear God, please let this be true!  :Big Grin:

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Irrelevant since people know who they are now. Guardians is the most successful Marvel franchise outside of Avengers and Iron Man. It is *very* impressive that Wonder Woman will outgross it domestically


I have a question-why are Wonder Woman toys on clearance at Target only one month after the film came out?

I mean Captain America CW toys are just NOW getting tossed on clearance along with GOTG 2.

And the funny thing is I have seen those WW toys vanish off the shelf faster than GOTC & Civil War.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I have a question-why are Wonder Woman toys on clearance at Target only one month after the film came out?
> 
> I mean Captain America CW toys are just NOW getting tossed on clearance along with GOTG 2.
> 
> And the funny thing is I have seen those WW toys vanish off the shelf faster than GOTC & Civil War.


What is the gender breakdown for superhero toys?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> What is the gender breakdown for superhero toys?


If the toys are indeed on clearance I'm about to single-handedly bump it up a percentage.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Jaume Collet-Serra Frontrunner For ‘Suicide Squad’ Sequel*




> The Shallows Jaume Collet-Serra has emerged as frontrunner choice to direct Suicide Squad 2, the next installment of the 2016 Warner Bros DC film that grossed $745 million worldwide. The studio looked at a number of filmmakers — Mel Gibson among them — but sources said the studio is focused on Collet-Serra to take the reins of a franchise that has Will Smith, Margot Robbie back in the ensemble. The original, written and directed by David Ayer, was about a group of incorrigible jailbirds with special skills who were conscripted to fight terrible villains with the idea the heroes were expendable.


Source

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Kathryn Winnick (Lagertha from Vikings) has stated that she has some kind of "secret project" in the works that will be revealed in a couple weeks at Comic-Con. 
> 
> Possible theory? Black Canary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear God, please let this be true!


Hallelujah, brother!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *Jaume Collet-Serra Frontrunner For ‘Suicide Squad’ Sequel*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


Cool! The Shallows was a surprisingly good movie, so this bodes well. That movie had some great tension moments and Blake Lively gave possibly the best performance I've ever seen out of her. So hopefully that means he'll be able to work similar magic for Suicide Squad. 

Also interesting that Margot Robbie apparently WILL be in the sequel? Wasn't it established a while ago that she wouldn't be back for SS 2? Eh. Either way, it's good news. Her star power is on the rise these days, so she can only help this movie succeed. 




> Hallelujah, brother!


Yup! 

Fond, though I am of Laurel and Sara in the CW-verse, I kinda think Winnick would easily become the best live-action Black Canary ever.  :Smile:

----------


## Johnny

> *Jaume Collet-Serra Frontrunner For Suicide Squad Sequel*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


Good choice, hopefully he gets to direct the movie. The Shallows was really good, totally changed my mind about Blake Lively, especially since I was still mad at her for Carol Ferris at the time.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Also interesting that Margot Robbie apparently WILL be in the sequel? Wasn't it established a while ago that she wouldn't be back for SS 2? Eh. Either way, it's good news. Her star power is on the rise these days, so she can only help this movie succeed.


So I guess this means Batman will come before Sirens and that may be where we are introduced to Catwoman and Poison Ivy first. 

Or maybe Ivy will be a part of SS2.

----------


## JediKage

I just hope they give whoever is writing this time to work on the script. 

It was never said Margot Robbie wouldn't be back for the sequel that was just the assumption. 

Depends on if SDCC gives us a better timeline but yeah Batman first would just make sense.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Pretty sure Suicide Squad 2 will come out in 2020(the batman movie will need to come out before it)
GCS seems like it might be another 2020 release but could come sooner just because its not an insanely high budget film.

The only reason people assumed Harley wouldn't be in SS2 is because she got broken out at the end of the first one.
That precludes she won't be on the team in the beginning of the movie anyway

----------


## Cyborguy

I need Killer Frost in SS2.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Just...why? How is it the worst DCEU movie is getting a sequel and it starts filming before a Superman sequel or any of the Solo films that need to be made to actually expand the universe? Not a fan of this decision.

----------


## Johnny

> Just...why? How is it the worst DCEU movie is getting a sequel and it starts filming before a Superman sequel or any of the Solo films that need to be made to actually expand the universe? Not a fan of this decision.


Because in Hollywood it doesn't mater how something is received as long as it makes money. SS made tons so let's make the sequel asap.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Just...why? How is it the worst DCEU movie is getting a sequel and it starts filming before a Superman sequel or any of the Solo films that need to be made to actually expand the universe? Not a fan of this decision.


Suicide Squad is probable cheaper to make than a proper MOS sequel. Heck, this new director made a huge amount of money with a very small budget already, so I won't be surprised if this SS movie is going to be made nice and cheap. The less expensive a movie is, the easier it is to get rolling on it. 

Also? Superman's story couldn't get moving until he resurrects at the end of this year. Announcing plans for an MOS sequel when Superman is supposed to be "dead" kinda telegraphs his return.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Suicide Squad is probable cheaper to make than a proper MOS sequel. Heck, this new director made a huge amount of money with a very small budget already, so I won't be surprised if this SS movie is going to be made nice and cheap. The less expensive a movie is, the easier it is to get rolling on it. 
> 
> Also? Superman's story couldn't get moving until he resurrects at the end of this year. Announcing plans for an MOS sequel when Superman is supposed to be "dead" kinda telegraphs his return.


You're missing the point. SS was already released to the public with a very lukewarm response. Why go back to the well when there is now momentum for the universe after WW, and so many other characters to build around. It was always a bizarre choice to have SS come out so early in the DCEU era anyway. Now a second one so soon? Bad decision.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You're missing the point. SS was already released to the public with a very lukewarm response. Why go back to the well when there is now momentum for the universe after WW, and so many other characters to build around. It was always a bizarre choice to have SS come out so early in the DCEU era anyway. Now a second one so soon? Bad decision.


The film was successful financially, so I'm not that sure it's a bad decision.

----------


## Doctor Know

> You're missing the point. SS was already released to the public with a very lukewarm response. Why go back to the well when there is now momentum for the universe after WW, and so many other characters to build around. It was always a bizarre choice to have SS come out so early in the DCEU era anyway. Now a second one so soon? Bad decision.


Suicide Squad was a big hit with the public. It's was in the top 10 highest grossing films of 2016 (a feat accomplished without a release in China), it was the number 2 in sales of merchandise for a comic movie (Deadpool was #1, BvS #3, CACW #4, Dr Strange #5 and X-Men was #6), and won an Academy Award. Plus, WB executive stated the diversity of the film helped with repeat viewing from the audience. Which translates into the film having strong legs and repeated viewings from many different people.

Making another one is a no brainer.

----------


## Troian

I just wish we got villains who were villains. Not people you're forced to sympathize with but that's just me.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I just wish we got villains who were villains. Not people you're forced to sympathize with but that's just me.


That's one huge reason the movie didn't work for me.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Still no word on a new Superman flick?

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I just wish we got villains who were villains. Not people you're forced to sympathize with but that's just me.


I like a mustache twirler as much as the next guy, but they can't ALL be. Every villian is the hero of their own story. Part of the reason a lot of current superhero flicks fail for me is the utter lack of interesting enemies.

Marvel is building up to a fight between all their heroes and a big blue CGI dude. Suicide Squad, which would be the perfect place for a smaller stakes story, devolves into CGI smoke lady. Even Wonder Woman, which I really enjoyed, almost fell apart for me with CGI boss fight.

Michael Shannon's Zod, General Ludendorff, Loki, and Robert Redford as the Hydra guy have been the only really interesting villians we've had in recent years.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Still no word on a new Superman flick?


With Comic-Con coming up? I'm guessing they'll wait until then before they make any big announcements like that.

----------


## darkseidpwns

If Black Canary casting announcement is on the way then I suspect it will be for Batgirl.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Still no word on a new Superman flick?


Vanguard already gave the correct answer for this. Superman is currently dead, so they can't just openly announce a solo flick. 

You know he's coming back. I know he's coming back. Comic fans know he's coming back. My poor 65 year old mother cried a bucket of tears at the end of BvS because she didn't know he was coming back. And a good majority of John Q. Public probably doesn't know either. This is why they have (so far) not shown him inany of the JL footage we've seen (well, there was Snyder's wrap video, but most people haven't seen that). Superman will get a sequel in due time. 

Different topic: Has anybody else caught the new Walmart back to school commercials yet?

----------


## Agent Z

> That's one huge reason the movie didn't work for me.


Which movie? Suicide Squad? Cause there was nothing sympathetic about Enchantress

----------


## Clark_Kent



----------


## Clark_Kent



----------


## Clark_Kent

^^ Check out the ads, guys. People say nobody likes DCEU Superman? Walmart thinks differently.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> If Black Canary casting announcement is on the way then I suspect it will be for Batgirl.


Batgirl, Gotham City Sirens, or possibly an as-yet unannounced Birds of Prey movie would be my guesses. 

Batgirl's the obvious choice. She and Dinah have been friends for a long time and they're a natural partnership. Sirens could work if they go with a "villains vs. heroes" story from the villain's perspective. They could do a kind of "Thelma and Louise" deal with the Sirens fighting a team of heroes. Could even be the precursor to a Birds of Prey movie. Introduce an all-female super-team in Sirens, then give them their own movie. 




> Which movie? Suicide Squad? Cause there was nothing sympathetic about Enchantress


Well, June Moon was plenty sympathetic. She didn't deserve what happened to her. 




> 


Very cool! I love that they included the entire Trinity! 

And yep. Those were specifically the DCEU versions of the characters, so clearly Wal-Mart sees commercial value in all three of them.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The film was successful financially, so I'm not that sure it's a bad decision.


Do you go back to a restaurant you once tried but the food sucked? Data from Rotten Tomatoes shows that films that were "Certified Rotten" and were given sequels, the sequels only earn roughly 60 percent of the original. It's the old "fool me once..." idea.

----------


## Agent Z

> Batgirl, Gotham City Sirens, or possibly an as-yet unannounced Birds of Prey movie would be my guesses. 
> 
> Batgirl's the obvious choice. She and Dinah have been friends for a long time and they're a natural partnership. Sirens could work if they go with a "villains vs. heroes" story from the villain's perspective. They could do a kind of "Thelma and Louise" deal with the Sirens fighting a team of heroes. Could even be the precursor to a Birds of Prey movie. Introduce an all-female super-team in Sirens, then give them their own movie. 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, June Moon was plenty sympathetic. She didn't deserve what happened to her. 
> 
> 
> ...


June Moon was sympathetic. The Enchantress not so much.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Do you go back to a restaurant you once tried but the food sucked? Data from Rotten Tomatoes shows that films that were "Certified Rotten" and were given sequels, the sequels only earn roughly 60 percent of the original. It's the old "fool me once..." idea.


This can be offset by changing things up so that the sequel in no way resembles the first movie other than having a lot of the same characters. New screen writer? New director? Completely new story? Audiences tend to give those a chance if it looks like the things they didn't like in the first movie aren't going to be present in the sequel.

And Suicide Squad still made nearly $750 million WITHOUT a Chinese release. You make that much money without even touching the second-biggest film market in the world? That tends to mean that a lot of people liked it regardless of what the critics say. 




> June Moon was sympathetic. The Enchantress not so much.


Well, of course. But Enchantress and June were intertwined in the movie, so the fate of one seemed likely to be the fate of the other. Thus? You don't want to see anything too bad happen to Enchantress if it meant June would suffer too. Luckily, the Squad figured out a way to destroy (we think) Enchantress while sparing June.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Do you go back to a restaurant you once tried but the food sucked? Data from Rotten Tomatoes shows that films that were "Certified Rotten" and were given sequels, the sequels only earn roughly 60 percent of the original. It's the old "fool me once..." idea.


The general public loved that restaurant though. The food wasn't to YOUR taste, but the public (including myself) had several helpings & still want more.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Which movie? Suicide Squad? Cause there was nothing sympathetic about Enchantress


The person I was responding to was referring to the "bad guys" on the Suicide Squad.  How did you miss that?

----------


## Lightning Rider

Love the commercials, they definitely capture the wish-fulfillment aspect of the characters and something about not showing their faces adds to that (even though the costumes and bodies look exactly like their movie counterparts), but it's a shame the characters are being used to promote Wal-Mart. That company is the antithesis of justice.

----------


## silly

> 


this is awesome. we need more.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Found 1 more, but features only Batman.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I like a mustache twirler as much as the next guy, but they can't ALL be. Every villian is the hero of their own story. Part of the reason a lot of current superhero flicks fail for me is the utter lack of interesting enemies.
> 
> Marvel is building up to a fight between all their heroes and a big blue CGI dude. Suicide Squad, which would be the perfect place for a smaller stakes story, devolves into CGI smoke lady. Even Wonder Woman, which I really enjoyed, almost fell apart for me with CGI boss fight.
> 
> Michael Shannon's Zod, General Ludendorff, Loki, and Robert Redford as the Hydra guy have been the only really interesting villians we've had in recent years.


Jesse's Lex is pretty damn good, too. His motivations are understandable, but don't justify him.

----------


## JediKage

Jesse's Lex was terrible more Riddler then Lex. His Lex cant be taken seriously running for Prez or being in the same room as Waller. 

However his motivation was understandable but weak....k he doesn't like false gods and bowing to people with power because of his grandfather...that doesn't really justify unleashing a doomsday monster to kill Superman and plenty of civilians. There is no personal motivation for him to hate or want Supes and Bats to fight at all...nor am I sure why he thinks Batman would be able to kill Superman. Presumably Batman has never dealt with anything on Superman's level before this....

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Jesse's Lex was terrible more Riddler then Lex. His Lex cant be taken seriously running for Prez or being in the same room as Waller. 
> 
> However his motivation was understandable but weak....k he doesn't like false gods and bowing to people with power because of his grandfather...that doesn't really justify unleashing a doomsday monster to kill Superman and plenty of civilians. There is no personal motivation for him to hate or want Supes and Bats to fight at all...nor am I sure why he thinks Batman would be able to kill Superman. Presumably Batman has never dealt with anything on Superman's level before this....


He was abused by his father. Both physically and possibly sexually. "No Man in the Sky intervened to save me from Daddy's fist and abominations." 

So you have the binary compound of a kid raised in a life of extreme privilege combined with secretly living the life of a powerless abuse victim. It's not hard at all to see how this could turn him into a nihilistic megalomaniac with an axe to grind against the very concept of God or Good.

----------


## Frontier

I have about as much desire to see Eisenberg's take on Luthor again as I do Jared Leto's Joker, but maybe now that he's bald and basically out as a villain he can start feeling like Luthor in my mind, even if he may never sound "right."

----------


## JediKage

Yeah I am going to need a bit more then that for a strong personal motivation to want to kill Superman. 

I mean sheesh at least combine that with Superman cutting into his profit margins or something. 

As it stands its a weak motivation to go to the extremes that Lex Luthor does.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah I am going to need a bit more then that for a strong personal motivation to want to kill Superman. 
> 
> I mean sheesh at least combine that with Superman cutting into his profit margins or something. 
> 
> As it stands its a weak motivation to go to the extremes that Lex Luthor does.


Wanting to prove himself so superior to a righteous godlike being is a weak motivation but "He caused my massive stick portfolio to take a temporary dip" isn't?

----------


## JediKage

Yes because plenty of Major Corporations have a history of going after people cutting into their profit margins. 
Its something I could see a corrupt business doing...

Blaming Superman for Daddy Issues when Superman is about the same age as Lex is simply laughable motivation to unleash a doomsday weapon. 

But that was a throwaway example I thought of on the quick...my main point is still Lex's Motivation is weak. As weak as the government oversight on that project.

----------


## The True Detective

> You're missing the point. SS was already released to the public with a very lukewarm response. Why go back to the well when there is now momentum for the universe after WW, and so many other characters to build around. It was always a bizarre choice to have SS come out so early in the DCEU era anyway. Now a second one so soon? Bad decision.


Interesting how people pretend there was a luke warm or negative reception to SS when it had a better multiplier at the North American box office (2.4x) than Civil War (2.2x) if SS had a lukewarm response what did CW have?

----------


## JediKage

Is multiplier relative to budget? 

I mean Transformers and Pirates of the Caribbean movies have made bank doesn't mean anyone thought those movies were quality. 

I mean come on even Ayer is defending the narrative quality of SS

----------


## darkseidpwns

Reeves has tossed aside Afflecks's script, lol called it. And with Deathstroke appearing in Arrow its safe to rule hom out as well.

----------


## The True Detective

> Is multiplier relative to budget? 
> 
> I mean Transformers and Pirates of the Caribbean movies have made bank doesn't mean anyone thought those movies were quality. 
> 
> I mean come on even Ayer is defending the narrative quality of SS


No it's not but, it means Suicide Squad held it's audience better than Civil War did. I'm not trying to say it was a great movie or better than CW or anything, I'm just pointing out the double standard. People act like everyone hated Suicide Squad and loved Civil War but it had better legs.

----------


## Troian

> No it's not but, it means Suicide Squad held it's audience better than Civil War did. I'm not trying to say it was a great movie or better than CW or anything, I'm just pointing out the double standard. People act like everyone hated Suicide Squad and loved Civil War but it had better legs.


Just looking at Box Office Mojo, as far as North America goes, after the first two weeks all the percentage drops for SS were below 50 percent. That is really good in contrast to the vast majority of block buster films.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I just wish we got villains who were villains. Not people you're forced to sympathize with but that's just me.


A little Game of Thrones-y, maybe? I'd like that!

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Reeves has tossed aside Afflecks's script, lol called it. And with Deathstroke appearing in Arrow its safe to rule hom out as well.


Goodbye, Slade! You won't be missed. Source? It'll be nice to read Affleck's script a few months/years from now.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Goodbye, Slade! You won't be missed. Source? It'll be nice to read Affleck's script a few months/years from now.


Matt Reeves says that the next Batman movie will be starting from scratch




> _A new script suggests that the film might not feature Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke as originally planned._

----------


## JediKage

> Goodbye, Slade! You won't be missed. Source? It'll be nice to read Affleck's script a few months/years from now.


Well I personally like Slade but I wasn't a fan of Joe Being cast as him at all so I guess its a net win if you ask me.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Matt Reeves says that the next Batman movie will be starting from scratch


Thank you. What I like about Reeves' Ape movie (haven't seen Survival yet) its still a blockbuster but you don't have to turn your brain off to enjoy it. There's plenty of themes and philosophy you can choose to take with you after leaving the movie theatre or turning off your TV.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yes because plenty of Major Corporations have a history of going after people cutting into their profit margins. 
> Its something I could see a corrupt business doing...
> 
> Blaming Superman for Daddy Issues when Superman is about the same age as Lex is simply laughable motivation to unleash a doomsday weapon. 
> 
> But that was a throwaway example I thought of on the quick...my main point is still Lex's Motivation is weak. As weak as the government oversight on that project.


How was he blaming Superman for not saving him? Superman, as well as other metahumans, act as a representation of unchecked, inhuman power. Them being viewed as gods, and good, like in Superman's case, is an affront to how Lex views how the world works. As Superman is a physical representation of that, and Lex is psychologically broken, as well as entitled, it's easy to see why this is a good motivation for him.

Superman affecting his stock (which he didnt, as Lex rebuilt Metropolis, creating jobs, owning property, and building a good rep for his company), comes off as nothing in comparison.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Thank you. What I like about Reeves' Ape movie (haven't seen Survival yet) its still a blockbuster but you don't have to turn your brain off to enjoy it. There's plenty of themes and philosophy you can choose to take with you after leaving the movie theatre or turning off your TV.


Yes, that's why I very excited for his take on Batman. However, Slade could still be in it, and him being in it doesn't mean it can't have themes and philosophies. Slade is a complicated man, just like Bruce.

Hope that there's both a mental, and physical, challenge for Batman in this movie.

----------


## Frontier

I assume Slade is still in _Justice League_ at least, if only for a cameo.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I assume Slade is still in _Justice League_ at least, if only for a cameo.


Though even if he filmed stuff for JL, the Deathstroke scenes in JL could always end up removed from the final cut, similarly to how the second TASM film cut out the Mary Jane scenes.

----------


## Badou

Deathstroke will probably end up being used in Suicide Squad if they aren't going to use him in the Batman movie. I can't imagine they will just ditch the character after casting him and the fact he is a character they want to push.

----------


## TheSupernaut

They'll probably use Deathstroke in the Nightwing solo.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> 


Why is WW costume so muted?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Why is WW costume so muted?


My pet theory? Keep in mind, the armor is 100 years older than it was in her movie. It's possible it darkened after 100 years of use. It's also possible Diana hasn't been quite as meticulous in maintaining it for quite a while. 

Or it could just be Snyder's obsession with dark colors. Who knows?

----------


## TheSupernaut

> Why is WW costume so muted?


It's over a century old and probably has gone through a lot of wear and tear. Or rather...its a Zack Snyder movie. Whichever explanation works for you.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's over a century old and probably has gone through a lot of wear and tear. Or rather...its a Zack Snyder movie. Whichever explanation works for you.


Hey! Get out of my head or start paying rent!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Troian

> Why is WW costume so muted?


The director likes dark color schemes.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Deathstroke will probably end up being used in Suicide Squad if they aren't going to use him in the Batman movie. I can't imagine they will just ditch the character after casting him and the fact he is a character they want to push.


Personally I'm hoping that we end up getting a Titans movie and Slade is the main villain for that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

For those who incorrectly keep saying that Miller is playing Barry "just like Wally."  He is playing the character as an "endearing, altruistic nerd."   Yeah... that isn't Wally at all.  

http://batman-news.com/2017/07/13/ne...and-the-flash/

----------


## Lightning Rider

> For those who incorrectly keep saying that Miller is playing Barry "just like Wally."  He is playing the character as an "endearing, altruistic nerd."   Yeah... that isn't Wally at all.  
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/07/13/ne...and-the-flash/


I like the sound of that. As long as he's not overly fanboy

----------


## TheSupernaut

> For those who incorrectly keep saying that Miller is playing Barry "just like Wally."  He is playing the character as an "endearing, altruistic nerd."   Yeah... that isn't Wally at all.  
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/07/13/ne...and-the-flash/


Wally can be endearing. :P

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I like the sound of that. As long as he's not overly fanboy


Miller is a good actor.  I can't stand to watch him in interviews but he is still a good actor.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Miller is a good actor.  I can't stand to watch him in interviews but he is still a good actor.


His filmography is pretty short. What do you consider his best performances?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> His filmography is pretty short. What do you consider his best performances?


For me it was "We need to talk about Kevin."  Compare that to Fantastic Beasts and you can see that he has a lot of range.  He really is Warner's younger actor who they are trying to make a box office draw.

----------


## Frontier

> For those who incorrectly keep saying that Miller is playing Barry "just like Wally."  He is playing the character as an "endearing, altruistic nerd."   Yeah... that isn't Wally at all.  
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/07/13/ne...and-the-flash/


Well, Wally was an endearing nerd when it came to The Flash and to some degree science, if not to the extent Barry was  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Well, Wally was an endearing nerd when it came to The Flash and to some degree science, if not to the extent Barry was .


I wouldn't exactly call Wally "altruistic."

----------


## Frontier

> I wouldn't exactly call Wally "altruistic."


Why wouldn't you?

----------


## Troian

> I wouldn't exactly call Wally "altruistic."


Wally seems to fit the dictionary definition of the word to an extent. But I'm not a Wally expert haha.

----------


## Bukdiah

> For me it was "We need to talk about Kevin."  Compare that to Fantastic Beasts and you can see that he has a lot of range.  He really is Warner's younger actor who they are trying to make a box office draw.


I see. He makes me cringe when I see him and I don't really think he's a Barry Allen at all, but he could be surprisingly good like Gal Gadot in WW.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Why wouldn't you?


He was pretty mean to Bart... and not exactly the definition of caring or selfless.  Especially when you consider that he was family.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I see. He makes me cringe when I see him and I don't really think he's a Barry Allen at all, but he could be surprisingly good like Gal Gadot in WW.


Believe me.  When they announced it I almost yelled, "NO!"  However he has showed acting range and I'm willing to be optimistic (as if I had a choice.)  Haha... I definitely think he is more talented than Gal.  That makes me optimistic that he won't just try to play himself.  Those interviews are really hard to watch... but he apparently has done his homework on Barry Allen.  Unlike other DCEU actors... cough Eisenberg.

----------


## JediKage

> He was pretty mean to Bart... and not exactly the definition of caring or selfless.  Especially when you consider that he was family.


You like all your cousins?

----------


## Agent Z

> He was pretty mean to Bart... and not exactly the definition of caring or selfless.  Especially when you consider that he was family.


Altruistic does not mean perfect. If being a jerk once to one person means he's not altruistic then the same applies to every hero in the DCU

----------


## Agent Z

> I just wish we got villains who were villains. Not people you're forced to sympathize with but that's just me.


Enchantress wasn't sympathetic

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Altruistic does not mean perfect. If being a jerk once to one person means he's not altruistic then the same applies to every hero in the DCU


Whoever said, "Once."  It happened on well more than one occasion.  I won't derail the thread anymore.  Let's see in November if some of these same posters will complain about him "being just like Wally."  As expected some clearly will.  I made that same point before the TV show premiered... I'm sure the same will happen with the movie.

----------


## Agent Z

> Whoever said, "Once."  It happened on well more than one occasion.  I won't derail the thread anymore.  Let's see in November if some of these same posters will complain about him "being just like Wally."  As expected some clearly will.  I made that same point before the TV show premiered... I'm sure the same will happen with the movie.


You never mentioned these other occasions. As I said, altruistic does not mean perfect. Barry sure as he'll isn't. Is he less altruistic

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> You never mentioned these other occasions. As I said, altruistic does not mean perfect. Barry sure as he'll isn't. Is he less altruistic


I did.  I'm using his entire relationship with Bart as an example.  That is far more than one occasion.  I never said altruistic was perfect...

----------


## Agent Z

> I did.  I'm using his entire relationship with Bart as an example.  That is far more than one occasion.  I never said altruistic was perfect...


Then why bring up how he treated one person as if it defines his entire character? Does every good thing Wally did vanish because he was crappy to Bart?

----------


## Troian

> Enchantress wasn't sympathetic


As a being on her own, no but June Moore on the other hand.

Also, I was talking about the main "villain" protagonists.

----------


## Agent Z

> As a being on her own, no but June Moore on the other hand.
> 
> Also, I was talking about the main "villain" protagonists.


June isn't a villain period. She's a victim of the villain. 

As for the protagonists, I felt only Harley and El Diablo were somewhat sympathetic

----------


## Flash Gordon

Makes me sad to see Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman being used to promote Walmart.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Makes me sad to see Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman being used to promote Walmart.


I look at it the opposite way. When was the last time Superman & Wonder Woman were used to promote anything outside of comics merchandise? At least they are getting exposure with the Bat now.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I look at it the opposite way. When was the last time Superman & Wonder Woman were used to promote anything outside of comics merchandise? At least they are getting exposure with the Bat now.


I get that notion, but Walmart hurts real people in real life.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I get that notion, but Walmart hurts real people in real life.


Eh. The kids this commercial is targeting don't know or understand that. Doesn't mean that Walmart should be allowed to get away with the things that they do, but it does mean that not everything they do needs to be regarded as Evil Incarnate. It's a cool commercial that tells kids to be confident and prepared for the coming school year. That's a good message and it's a good thing that they're using great heroes like The Trinity to inspire kids.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Eh. The kids this commercial is targeting don't know or understand that. Doesn't mean that Walmart should be allowed to get away with the things that they do, but it does mean that not everything they do needs to be regarded as Evil Incarnate. It's a cool commercial that tells kids to be confident and prepared for the coming school year. That's a good message and it's a good thing that they're using great heroes like The Trinity to inspire kids.


It's advertisement. I know the kids aren't really aware of what the company is, but their families might feel the direct or indirect effects of what they do, and the message is basically "buy stuff with these superheroes on them....at this terrible place." I think the commercials are awesome btw, I just wish the real-life irony weren't so in your face. It adds insult to injury. I have to put real life harms as more important than the success of fictional characters.

----------


## Confuzzled

> His filmography is pretty short. What do you consider his best performances?


The Perks of Being a Wallflower

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> They'll probably use Deathstroke in the Nightwing solo.


You want Dick to bite the dust in his first movie?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Believe me.  When they announced it I almost yelled, "NO!"  However he has showed acting range and I'm willing to be optimistic (as if I had a choice.)  Haha... I definitely think he is more talented than Gal.  That makes me optimistic that he won't just try to play himself.  Those interviews are really hard to watch... but he apparently has done his homework on Barry Allen.  Unlike other DCEU actors... cough Eisenberg.


He probably read Birthright and Red Son, or Zack did and told him to do that.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> He probably read Birthright and Red Son, or Zack did and told him to do that.


This. Eisenberg's Lex was essentially a slightly more unhinged version of that Lex. A little too twitchy for my tastes but far closer to the Comics version of Lex than the bad suit and toupee wearing car salesman version Gene Hackman played and Kevin Spacey channeled. Both of theirs were entertaining, but appearance aside ,never felt like Lex Luthor. There are at least moments Eisenberg's Lex felt like the demented sociopathic genius Lex of the comics. If he could tone down the twitchiness I think he'd be near perfect.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> This. Eisenberg's Lex was essentially a slightly more unhinged version of that Lex. A little too twitchy for my tastes but far closer to the Comics version of Lex than the bad suit and toupee wearing car salesman version Gene Hackman played and Kevin Spacey channeled. Both of theirs were entertaining, but appearance aside ,never felt like Lex Luthor. There are at least moments Eisenberg's Lex felt like the demented sociopathic genius Lex of the comics. If he could tone down the twitchiness I think he'd be near perfect.


Yeah I agree, he captured that aspect of Lex well. He could be near perfect if he bulked up and like you said toned it down on the neurotic mannerisms, And maybe squeaked his voice less.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> You want Dick to bite the dust in his first movie?


This made me laugh. But so true.

Slade should first appear in SS2 and be a major presence and then get his own film. He's become a big enough property and is so unique in his complexity that he should have his own movie or two.

----------


## Frontier

> This. Eisenberg's Lex was essentially a slightly more unhinged version of that Lex. A little too twitchy for my tastes but far closer to the Comics version of Lex than the bad suit and toupee wearing car salesman version Gene Hackman played and Kevin Spacey channeled. Both of theirs were entertaining, but appearance aside ,never felt like Lex Luthor. There are at least moments Eisenberg's Lex felt like the demented sociopathic genius Lex of the comics. If he could tone down the twitchiness I think he'd be near perfect.


Eh...I can see that they were trying to go in that direction, and he was probably closer then Hackman or Spacey were in terms of goals, motivation, or planning, but I think his performance and the way his personality came off was as far from my ideal Lex Luthor as those two were.

----------


## nightbird

> You want Dick to bite the dust in his first movie?


He is a villain(/anti-hero/merc/whatever). It doesn't matter how strong he is in comics (and honestly his abilities kinda overrated). Superhero movies here to celebrate heroes.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> You want Dick to bite the dust in his first movie?


Eh Slade has become to OP

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Eh. The kids this commercial is targeting don't know or understand that. Doesn't mean that Walmart should be allowed to get away with the things that they do, but it does mean that not everything they do needs to be regarded as Evil Incarnate. It's a cool commercial that tells kids to be confident and prepared for the coming school year. That's a good message and it's a good thing that they're using great heroes like The Trinity to inspire kids.


It's targeting kids in hopes to get money from their collective parents, which in turn will go to Wal-Mart. It makes me sad seeing Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman used to make profit by a corporation that is so "in your face" evil. I love seeing these characters represented but I wish it wasn't such a horrific company using them. 

Cool ads, just too much irony for me.

----------


## Flash Gordon

I have to say, it feels really nice seeing WONDER WOMAN on stuff and just in the collective conscious in general. God, her presence has been needed so badly.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I have to say, it feels really nice seeing WONDER WOMAN on stuff and just in the collective conscious in general. God, her presence has been needed so badly.


The world IS ready for her! 

(Yeah, technically the world was ready for her like TEN YEARS AGO! But better late than never.)

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> This made me laugh. But so true.
> 
> Slade should first appear in SS2 and be a major presence and then get his own film. He's become a big enough property and is so unique in his complexity that he should have his own movie or two.


Exactly, he's honestly too good, and too big, to be reduced to being defeated by the Titans now (which isn't possible anymore, given how he's been written for years now). 




> He is a villain(/anti-hero/merc/whatever). It doesn't matter how strong he is in comics (and honestly his abilities kinda overrated). Superhero movies here to celebrate heroes.


This is a guy that's been frequently shown to be outsmarting Batman, is a complicated/ambiguous character, and has generally become much bigger than a basic villain. He likely will, and should, be considered for the 4th main SS character (along with Waller, Shot, and Harley), or smaller budget spinoff movies.




> Yeah I agree, he captured that aspect of Lex well. He could be near perfect if he bulked up and like you said toned it down on the neurotic mannerisms, And maybe squeaked his voice less.


I think that his time in prison will not only give him time to bulk, but also mellow him out. He doesn't have the power he once did, and will likely realize he's got to tone himself down to get what he wants now.

----------


## nightbird

> This is a guy that's been frequently shown to be outsmarting Batman, is a complicated/ambiguous character, and has generally become much bigger than a basic villain. He likely will, and should, be considered for the 4th main SS character (along with Waller, Shot, and Harley), or smaller budget spinoff movies.


It doesn't matter. Protagonist of the movie (especially in this genre) bound to win over antagonist. It would've happen in Bats movie too.
SS can have him. So I could care even less about upcoming sequel.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> It doesn't matter. Protagonist of the movie (especially in this genre) bound to win over antagonist. It would've happen in Bats movie too.
> SS can have him. So I could care even less about upcoming sequel.


Why are you on the message boards and not telling kids to get off your lawn?

----------


## Frontier

> Exactly, he's honestly too good, and too big, to be reduced to being defeated by the Titans now (*which isn't possible anymore, given how he's been written for years now*).


Well, that doesn't necesarilly have to mean anything  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I don't think anyone would care if he fought the Titans as long as he got a reasonably good showing, or both sides did. This is DCEU Deathstroke, not necessarily comic book Deathstroke or _Teen Titans_ Deathstroke or _Arkham_ Deathstroke.

----------


## nightbird

> Why are you on the message boards and not telling kids to get off your lawn?


I love when people ignore everything else and just focus on what they want. Okay.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah I agree, he captured that aspect of Lex well. He could be near perfect if he bulked up and like you said toned it down on the neurotic mannerisms, *And maybe squeaked his voice less.*


He hasn't demonstrated that he can do that.  Is it possible?  Maybe but he has to prove it.  I'm not convinced that he has the physical work ethic to bulk up much.  I wouldn't rule out the possibility but I highly doubt that he would do it.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This. Eisenberg's Lex was essentially a slightly more unhinged version of that Lex. A little too twitchy for my tastes but far closer to the Comics version of Lex than the bad suit and toupee wearing car salesman version Gene Hackman played and Kevin Spacey channeled. Both of theirs were entertaining, but appearance aside ,never felt like Lex Luthor. There are at least moments Eisenberg's Lex felt like the demented sociopathic genius Lex of the comics. If he could tone down the twitchiness I think he'd be near perfect.


Yep. Whatever anybody thinks of his performance, he's easily closer to comic-book Lex than any previous movie incarnation with the exception of Lyle Talbot.

----------


## Rogue Star

> You want Dick to bite the dust in his first movie?


My dyslexia caused me to read that as "_You want Dick bite in the first movie?_"  o 3o;

----------


## Vanguard-01

> He hasn't demonstrated that he can do that.  Is it possible?  Maybe but he has to prove it.  I'm not convinced that he has the physical work ethic to bulk up much.  I wouldn't rule out the possibility but I highly doubt that he would do it.


We already know he can tone down the voice thing because he did exactly that in the Extended Cut. In fact, that final scene seemed to imply that the whole manic thing he had going on was just an act. He actually mocked his own previous speech patterns and started talking to Batman like your typical ice-cold sociopath. 

He doesn't need to bulk up. Lex Luthor is supposed to fight Superman with his intellect, not his body. Frankly, I never want to see Lex Luthor throwing a punch at Superman again. No, not even if he's wearing a battle suit. Lex is smart enough to see how stupid it is to take Superman on at his own game.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Yep. Whatever anybody thinks of his performance, he's easily closer to comic-book Lex than any previous movie incarnation with the exception of Lyle Talbot.


Agree to disagree. If they hadn't said his name in the movie I would never have guessed he was playing Luthor. I don't know of any DC character whose portrayal has been more at odds than his characterization in the comics than Lex as played by Eisenberg. I would call even Halle Berry's Catwoman closer to canon/core characteristics than Eisenberg's Luthor. Of course I never saw the Halle Berry Catwoman movie so that's easy for me to say. I just can't imagine anybody being farther from the character he/she is portraying than Jesse Eisenberg/Lex Luthor.

In a film I tried so hard to love but couldn't help hating (a lot), Eisenberg's performance had the distinction of being the thing that bugged me the most of a 3 hour movie that almost ONLY bugged me from start to finish. Exception was Batman fighting in the warehouse which was actually extraordinary. There were a handful of things I didn't hate about that movie but I was SO put off by Eisenberg's Luthor it was enough to make me forget even the parts I liked.

Again, agree to disagree. There's no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to these things. People can only have the reactions they actually had. Yours was yours and it was the "right" opinion from your perspective. Mine was the opposite of yours but was still the "right" opinion from mine.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Agree to disagree. If they hadn't said his name in the movie I would never have guessed he was playing Luthor. I don't know of any DC character whose portrayal has been more at odds than his characterization in the comics than Lex as played by Eisenberg. I would call even Halle Berry's Catwoman closer to canon/core characteristics than Eisenberg's Luthor. Of course I never saw the Halle Berry Catwoman movie so that's easy for me to say. I just can't imagine anybody being farther from the character he/she is portraying than Jesse Eisenberg/Lex Luthor.
> 
> In a film I tried so hard to love but couldn't help hating (a lot), Eisenberg's performance had the distinction of being the thing that bugged me the most of a 3 hour movie that almost ONLY bugged me from start to finish. Exception was Batman fighting in the warehouse which was actually extraordinary. There were a handful of things I didn't hate about that movie but I was SO put off by Eisenberg's Luthor it was enough to make me forget even the parts I liked.
> 
> Again, agree to disagree. There's no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to these things. People can only have the reactions they actually had. Yours was yours and it was the "right" opinion from your perspective. Mine was the opposite of yours but was still the "right" opinion from mine.


In reference to Catwoman...no, man. No. lmao

You're also not the only one to hate Eisenberg in BvS.

----------


## BatmanJones

> In reference to Catwoman...no, man. No. lmao
> 
> You're also not the only one to hate Eisenberg in BvS.


I admitted to not even seeing that movie. I was looking for the most out-there/poor portrayal I could imagine and that seemed like an apt one though surely if I were serious I would have chosen a performance from a movie I actually saw.  :Smile:

----------


## Bukdiah

> I admitted to not even seeing that movie. I was looking for the most out-there/poor portrayal I could imagine and that seemed like an apt one though surely if I were serious I would have chosen a performance from a movie I actually saw.


lol yeah, I was just messing. It took me two days to finish that movie on Netflix because of how painful it was. Made for some great reenactments and puns at work though.

----------


## Troian

> I get that notion, but Walmart hurts real people in real life.


Eh I buy my stuff from there cause I like it. To me its no skin off my bones. Big corporations are usually the butt of jokes when it comes to doing questionable acts, corruption and ethics and they'll continue to get away with it so whatever.  I find the commercials cute.

Anyways, I find Ezra to be a good actor. So I think he should be really well recieved.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Agree to disagree. If they hadn't said his name in the movie I would never have guessed he was playing Luthor. I don't know of any DC character whose portrayal has been more at odds than his characterization in the comics than Lex as played by Eisenberg. I would call even Halle Berry's Catwoman closer to canon/core characteristics than Eisenberg's Luthor. Of course I never saw the Halle Berry Catwoman movie so that's easy for me to say. I just can't imagine anybody being farther from the character he/she is portraying than Jesse Eisenberg/Lex Luthor.
> 
> In a film I tried so hard to love but couldn't help hating (a lot), Eisenberg's performance had the distinction of being the thing that bugged me the most of a 3 hour movie that almost ONLY bugged me from start to finish. Exception was Batman fighting in the warehouse which was actually extraordinary. There were a handful of things I didn't hate about that movie but I was SO put off by Eisenberg's Luthor it was enough to make me forget even the parts I liked.
> 
> Again, agree to disagree. There's no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to these things. People can only have the reactions they actually had. Yours was yours and it was the "right" opinion from your perspective. Mine was the opposite of yours but was still the "right" opinion from mine.


Well, I have never read a comic featuring Lex that remotely resembled the Hackman/Spacey version (other than physically), while I have seen some of Eisenberg's. That's all I'm saying - if you prefer the quasi-Batman '66 version, that's fine with me. It's all subjective in the end.  :Smile:

----------


## Punisher007

Hackman at least had the excuse of playing Lex in the 70's, before he'd made that transition to "modern Lex."  Spacey/Eisenberg don't have that excuse, especially since people were looking forward to finally getting a more comic book-accurate Lex in BVS.

But that's not what they did.  Instead we got an annoying, hyper-active weirdo who isn't remotely charismatic and doesn't feel like any kind of a real threat (despite the movie's attempts to portray him as one).

----------


## SuperiorIronman

If Lex is recasted or got a complete overhaul for any future movie then I'll be fine with that (the overhaul also ignoring BVS). I'm in agreement that if they didn't say his name I would never have got that was supposed to be Lex Luthor. I don't mind Lex having a silly side to him but the neurotic mess in BVS is not Lex Luthor. I don't care if it got somewhat resolved in the extended cut, that's not what was shown in theaters and not what I payed for and ended up seeing. An extended cut is supposed to be an extension of what was shown in theaters and marketed, maybe even showing what got cut with an understanding of why, it's never supposed to be damage control. 

Sure Eisenberg could be a fine Lex Luthor, but I'm not convinced he can considering the material the man has to work with.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> We already know he can tone down the voice thing because he did exactly that in the Extended Cut. In fact, that final scene seemed to imply that the whole manic thing he had going on was just an act. He actually mocked his own previous speech patterns and started talking to Batman like your typical ice-cold sociopath. 
> 
> He doesn't need to bulk up. Lex Luthor is supposed to fight Superman with his intellect, not his body. Frankly, I never want to see Lex Luthor throwing a punch at Superman again. No, not even if he's wearing a battle suit. Lex is smart enough to see how stupid it is to take Superman on at his own game.


I thought Eisenberg was a terrible Lex... so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Hackman at least had the excuse of playing Lex in the 70's, before he'd made that transition to "modern Lex." .


Except he wasn't close to any pre-_COIE_ Lex still. I mean, would the Luthor of the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages have stomached Otis for more than 5 seconds (Miss Teschmacher, OTOH...  :Big Grin: )?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Eh I buy my stuff from there cause I like it. To me its no skin off my bones. Big corporations are usually the butt of jokes when it comes to doing questionable acts, corruption and ethics and they'll continue to get away with it so whatever.  I find the commercials cute.
> 
> Anyways, I find Ezra to be a good actor. So I think he should be really well recieved.


My job as a workers' rights advocate is to make sure they don't just "get away with it". People suffer daily because of exceptionally large and powerful corporations like Wal-Mart. The kind of indifference you show isn't compatible with the ideals these heroes are supposed to represent. "It's no skin off my bones" is a terrible moral compass.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

http://screenrant.com/the-batman-201...ner-bros-dceu/

----------


## The Kid

Looks like Wonder Woman is pretty much a lock to be the domestic winner for this summer. Just unbelievable! It'll be #3 for the entire year domestically after only Star Wars and Beauty & the Beast (funny enough all three movies have female leads). Didn't see that coming at all

----------


## Robotman

> Looks like Wonder Woman is pretty much a lock to be the domestic winner for this summer. Just unbelievable! It'll be #3 for the entire year domestically after only Star Wars and Beauty & the Beast (funny enough all three movies have female leads). Didn't see that coming at all


I think a lot of people forgot just how much of a cultural icon Wonder Woman truely is. Obviously WB didn't realize her full potential as it's taken them far too long to bring her to the big screen. She means so much to so many people.

----------


## TheSupernaut

> You want Dick to bite the dust in his first movie?


No I just really want to see Slade in a movie.  :Frown:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> No I just really want to see Slade in a movie.


Just put him in SS2 and then spin off his own movie. It would be a big hit for a low budget.

----------


## Troian

> I think a lot of people forgot just how much of a cultural icon Wonder Woman truely is. Obviously WB didn't realize her full potential as it's taken them far too long to bring her to the big screen. She means so much to so many people.


She is also a female and brought a fresh new perspective on the superhero genre.

----------


## Frontier

> Looks like Wonder Woman is pretty much a lock to be the domestic winner for this summer. Just unbelievable! It'll be #3 for the entire year domestically after only Star Wars and Beauty & the Beast (funny enough all three movies have female leads). Didn't see that coming at all


She was the one all the world was waiting for  :Cool: .

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Except he wasn't close to any pre-_COIE_ Lex still. I mean, would the Luthor of the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages have stomached Otis for more than 5 seconds (Miss Teschmacher, OTOH... )?


I actually think Spacey was the worst of the three.  I'll take the portrayals in JL and YJ animated any day over the three live action versions.

----------


## Punisher007

Or the Michael Rosenbaum Lex from _Smallville._  Heck even John Shea's Lex from _Lois & Clark_ was better than any of the film Lex's.

I'd say of the three, Hackman's is the best because at least he's entertaining in the role.

----------


## Styles

According to Umberto Gonzalez‏ Deathstroke is still gonna be in the DCEU

----------


## Troian

> My job as a workers' rights advocate is to make sure they don't just "get away with it". People suffer daily because of exceptionally large and powerful corporations like Wal-Mart. The kind of indifference you show isn't compatible with the ideals these heroes are supposed to represent. "It's no skin off my bones" is a terrible moral compass.


I can see your point but its a kid commerical in the end. They won't know whats going on behind the scenes and many just want the gear cause it looks cool or hip. But I have no dogs in that fight, I am not working for workers rights or anything like that but since its your job, by all means do whatever you can. I just feel indifferent.

Anyways, with the sucess of WW, I wonder if the sequel will break a billion or will it end up being like GoTG 2 or even AoU both of which didn't really meet up to box office numbers (people thought Gotg 2 would break a billion and AoU was super hyped.) 

Is that umberto guy trustworthy?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> According to Umberto Gonzalez‏ Deathstroke is still gonna be in the DCEU


Hopefully they'll save him for Nightwing or something Titans related. 

I'd much rather The Batman feature actual Batman villains.

----------


## golgi

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#555600b85233

_ Box Office: Wonder Woman Is Now Sure To Be Summer's Biggest Hit_ 




> Warner Bros./Time Warner Inc.'s Wonder Woman earned another $6.885 million in its seventh weekend of release, dropping just 30% despite losing another 347 theaters. That brings the $150 million superhero movie's domestic total to $380.686m in 45 days. This puts it around $6m behind Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 ($386.5m as of today), so it should pass the Walt Disney/Marvel sci-fi sequel by the end of next week (or soon after) to become the summer's biggest domestic grosser.

----------


## Styles

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#555600b85233
> 
> _ Box Office: Wonder Woman Is Now Sure To Be Summer's Biggest Hit_


That's amazing. Surprise hit of the summer

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'll take the portrayals in JL and YJ animated any day over the three live action versions.


Now that I would definitely agree with - my favorite Luthors of them all.

----------


## Johnny

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#555600b85233
> 
> _ Box Office: Wonder Woman Is Now Sure To Be Summer's Biggest Hit_


Very happy for good ol' D. Long overdue.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Now that I would definitely agree with - my favorite Luthors of them all.


I think that portrayal is what most were hoping for and that made Eisenberg more jarring.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Chris McKay Discusses What It Will Take For an Actor to Be Cast as Nightwing*




> Nightwing director Chris McKay spoke with fans on Twitter about his love for the character of Nightwing and was asked if the actor being cast will need to love the character as he does and he responded with a definitive yes. Stating its a full commitment and he will need to be able to handle the daily gymnastics and martial arts skills the character is an expert on.
> McKay showed fans his love for the DC Universe with The LEGO Batman Movie and with that being the more campy side managed to give fans of the darker side of the characters a smile with all the Easter eggs and meta references.
> A live action darker film is different from a CGI animated comedy, but the love for the characters will still translate in his efforts as director for the Nightwing film.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Well Nightwing sounds perfectly on track, cool.

----------


## byrd156

> Well Nightwing sounds perfectly on track, cool.


The director behind Nightwing is the only one that I trust at the moment. I think Wan will do great things with Aquaman and Jenkins did pretty good with Wonder Woman but I'm not a fan of the rest of the DCEU so far. Chris McKay has been saying all the right things and I really feel like he understands the character, I want Dick done right. We haven't had Dick done right in live-action since Burt Ward and this is such a big chance for the character. With Titans and Nightwing coming up I feel like we will be getting two different interpretations of Dick Grayson. The lone vigilante trying to strike out on his own in the Nightwing movie and the team leader/social hero in Titans. I want both of these projects to have a very comic accurate Dick Grayson.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think that portrayal is what most were hoping for and that made Eisenberg more jarring.


Yeah, comic-book fans expected more of that, while everyone else, I assume, expected more of the semi-comedic Lex from the Donnerverse.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Well Nightwing sounds perfectly on track, cool.


It will be odd if they cast someone who clearly looks older than Flash and Cyborg.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It will be odd if they cast someone who clearly looks older than Flash and Cyborg.


True. Wouldn't want that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> True. Wouldn't want that.


I'm not sure that WB cares.  I almost expect Grayson to look five years older than Miller or Fisher.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I'm not sure that WB cares.  I almost expect Grayson to look five years older than Miller or Fisher.


Depends whether they want to set up a Titans movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Hopefully they'll save him for Nightwing or something Titans related. 
> 
> I'd much rather The Batman feature actual Batman villains.


SS2 would be the better choice.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Now that I would definitely agree with - my favorite Luthors of them all.


That being your favorite Luthor (mine as well), doesn’t make Jesse's version bad.

Seriously, most of the criticism the DCEU gets is that it has appealed to casual expectations, and preconceived notions.

Anyone who's read All-Star Superman, Red Son, and Birthright, and isn't beholden to the DCAU, we're just fine with the BvS Lex.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> *Chris McKay Discusses What It Will Take For an Actor to Be Cast as Nightwing*


I'm liking the sounds of this.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Alright, it's Comic-Con week. Let's get the DCEU predictions going. 

Here are the prompts:

1. We're obviously going to be getting a new JL trailer. Do you predict Superman will be shown in any capacity? What about Steppenwolf?

2. Do you predict we will get an Aquaman trailer? 

3. Will we get a new DCEU movie slate?

4. Any casting announcements?


Go!

----------


## darkseidpwns

> That being your favorite Luthor (mine as well), doesn’t make Jesse's version bad.
> 
> Seriously, most of the criticism the DCEU gets is that it has appealed to casual expectations, and preconceived notions.
> 
> Anyone who's read All-Star Superman, Red Son, and Birthright, and isn't beholden to the DCAU, we're just fine with the BvS Lex.


It was a craptastic performance, I'll actually cut the screenplay writer some slack here. The character didn't seem terribly written (unlike Batman)but like Leto Joker it was a horribly misguided and overacted role. Eisenberg really had no clue what he was doing there.

----------


## Punisher007

-Steppenwolf probably.  Superman, eh not so sure.  I think that they might just allude to him rather than actually show him.

-Aquaman isn't that far into filming, so IDK if we'll get a full-on trailer.  But we'll probably get some updates, and perhaps a quick BTS featurette.  Maybe some more members of the cast in their costumes (Nicole Kidman, Patrick Wilson, etc).

-I doubt it, WB seems like they want to be more cautious on that now.  However we might get some updates on specific films (_The Batman_, GCS since Ayer has left the _Scarface_ remake now, Batgirl, etc).

-Maybe, not sure.

-We also might get confirmation of a WW 2, and/or Patty Jenkins returning to direct.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> That being your favorite Luthor (mine as well), doesnt make Jesse's version bad.
> 
> Seriously, most of the criticism the DCEU gets is that it has appealed to casual expectations, and preconceived notions.
> 
> Anyone who's read All-Star Superman, Red Son, and Birthright, and isn't beholden to the DCAU, we're just fine with the BvS Lex.


No disagreement with anything you posted here, TFTF.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Alright, it's Comic-Con week. Let's get the DCEU predictions going. 
> 
> Here are the prompts:
> 
> 1. We're obviously going to be getting a new JL trailer. Do you predict Superman will be shown in any capacity? What about Steppenwolf?


I'm still kinda hoping Superman stays out of the trailers, but if they do it, then I hope they use the opportunity to dispel the fears about him coming back evil. Have him show up in a dramatic and heroic way. Give the audience no reason to think they're in for yet another dark movie. 

Steppenwolf? If they show him, I hope they keep it minimal. Less is more in trailers. Let the audience really guess at what they're in for. 




> 2. Do you predict we will get an Aquaman trailer?


Probably much too early for a trailer, but I'm definitely hoping for at least a scene or two. Some kind of sizzle reel would be nice. 

At the very least, I'm thinking we'll get some good still images or something like that. We're definitely getting SOMETHING Aquaman related. 




> 3. Will we get a new DCEU movie slate?


I don't know if we'll get a full-on new slate, but I definitely think we'll get a couple release dates announced and maybe even some heretofore-unknown upcoming projects. 




> 4. Any casting announcements?


I think we'll definitely get at least a few. Best guess would be Batgirl, maybe Ivy and Catwoman, and I'm really hoping that Katheryn Winnick's tease of a "secret project" may be an announcement that she'll be Black Canary. 

I'm also willing to bet we'll get a formal announcement on a Wonder Woman sequel and I dearly hope we'll get some kind of announcement for MOS 2 as well.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Probably much too early for a trailer, but I'm definitely hoping for at least a scene or two. Some kind of sizzle reel would be nice.


Not too early at all. It's almost the exact same situation JL was in at last year's Comic-Con and we got that trailer.

----------


## Frontier

> Anyone who's read All-Star Superman, Red Son, and Birthright, and isn't beholden to the DCAU, we're just fine with the BvS Lex.


Well, rather then "fine," I'd say I just understood and tolerated him  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Same with Jared Leto's Joker.

----------


## Robotman

2 new DC movies added to WB's 2020 slate. 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...ates-for-2020/

----------


## MorganL

Here's my ComicCon wish list


Great trailers for Gotham, Arrow,Supergirl,Legends,Flash&Lucifer

Positive reception for Krypton & Black Lightning pilots

A release date for freedom fighter the ray & the animated constantine

News on the DCSHG tv show

Titans casting announcement

A realease date for YJ season 3

EDIT: Given what I've heard about FFTR I'll get my release date (probably six weeks before or flash season 4 or during premier week) and a five minute preview.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> 2 new DC movies added to WB's 2020 slate. 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...ates-for-2020/


I really hope one of these is the actual Flash release date.

----------


## Troian

I wonder how well JL will do. The odds of it beating the Avengers OW and overall gross seem really really slim though.

----------


## JediKage

I don't really care about that I want them both to do well...to keep the comic boom going beyond that I simply want DC to string 2 Good Movies together in a row.

----------


## Johnny

> 2 new DC movies added to WB's 2020 slate. 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...ates-for-2020/


I guess that means Cyborg and GLC could be getting the shaft then?

----------


## Robotman

I hope there is an epic trailer for Justice League released at Comic Con. Maybe it's just me but there doesn't seem to be as much hype as there should be for this flick. It's the Justice League! It should be one of the biggest movies of all time, but it may not even be the biggest superhero movie of the year.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't really care about that I want them both to do well...to keep the comic boom going beyond that I simply want DC to string 2 Good Movies together in a row.


They already have strung 4 successful films financially in a row, so there's that.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Alright, it's Comic-Con week. Let's get the DCEU predictions going. 
> 
> Here are the prompts:
> 
> 1. We're obviously going to be getting a new JL trailer. Do you predict Superman will be shown in any capacity? What about Steppenwolf?
> 
> 2. Do you predict we will get an Aquaman trailer? 
> 
> 3. Will we get a new DCEU movie slate?
> ...


Is it bad that I forget about Comic Con? I used to religiously watch streams of it, now I just wait for highlights.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I hope there is an epic trailer for Justice League released at Comic Con. Maybe it's just me but there doesn't seem to be as much hype as there should be for this flick. It's the Justice League! It should be one of the biggest movies of all time, but it may not even be the biggest superhero movie of the year.


They're probably still retooling it with the Whedon reshoots and Elfman score, it might be a bad idea to go all in with the marketing before they know exactly what tone the movie ends up having. Not that things like that have stopped movie studios before, but still...

----------


## Blind Wedjat

So I (finally) got to see Wonder Woman two weeks ago. Really good film, I have to say. I feel a little bad for doubting Gal Gadot as Diana but she definitely carried the film well. She's not entirely perfect in my eyes but her acting was solid. I greatly enjoyed the work of the supporting cast, especially Chris Pine as Steve Trevor. The No Man's Land sequence was for sure the highlight of the film, though I expected a bit more from it because I felt like I had seen a lot of it already before watching the actual movie. But I liked how it ended, especially with Diana smiling at the people she had helped. I must also add that I really liked that she wanted to help people. I liked that she got angry at Steve multiple times because he felt he was looking at the bigger picture when she actually had the even bigger picture in mind. I feel like her sense of hope was greatly missing from the DCEU and I'm glad she brought it with this movie

The only issues I had with this movie were that I felt the first act was a little bit rushed and for me, it came across as weird that for the most part, Steve (and almost everyone else) are extremely accepting of a race of warrior women still using swords, shields, spears and arrows, and that Steve still doubts Diana in some instances after seeing what she's capable of. Also, I found both Lutherdorff and Doctor Poison both boring. Ares was just slightly better because of the twist and because of his motivations. But I felt the actor was miscast, his look slightly uninspired, and his powers were a bit of an overload for me. This all lead to a third act I felt was a bit messy, and I would have preferred to see a more martial artsy face off between Diana and Ares, with Diana switching between sword and shield, lasso and hand-to-hand, while Ares matches that by pulling out almost every kind of weapon out of portals. I feel like that would have been better that the CGI bombardments of fire, smoke amd dust that plagued both MoS and BvS. Also found it odd that the movie spends the whole time setting up the God Killer sword as the way to defeat Ares, only to have him destroy it in one move (in what I believe was a weakened state?).

The slo-mo didn't bother me as much as I thought it would except in some instances, but it worked best when Diana crossed No Man's Land. The music for that scene is perfect and I even feel empowered by it as a guy lol. Overall, I really like what Patty did with this film and it has a very strong message. I also really liked the fighting style of the Amazons.

To end my rant, can anybody explain what Diana's powers are at the end of the film? I know she's stronger than the rest of the Amazons but I have no idea what happened when she raged and killed(?) the German soldiers, starts generating force fields and is able to redirect Ares' lightening with her bracelets. I don't how the bracelets work as well. I read somewhere that they're the Aegis of Zeus or something but I'd like a definite answer.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

What does everyone make of Zack Snyder removing all of the JL imagery and logo from his Twitter? Lots of web chatter that he's pissed because it's not his movie anymore. This Saturday just got more interesting.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> What does everyone make of Zack Snyder removing all of the JL imagery and logo from his Twitter? Lots of web chatter that he's pissed because it's not his movie anymore. This Saturday just got more interesting.


It could be nothing at all.  He could just be changing his twitter account.  I doubt that Saturday will reveal anything new about the Snyder situation.  It does seem like something is going on.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> What does everyone make of Zack Snyder removing all of the JL imagery and logo from his Twitter? Lots of web chatter that he's pissed because it's not his movie anymore. This Saturday just got more interesting.


I say it's nothing. There's really nothing to speculate about. He's not working on the film anymore and he is mourning. Not a fan of his but I say give him a break.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> So I (finally) got to see Wonder Woman two weeks ago. Really good film, I have to say. I feel a little bad for doubting Gal Gadot as Diana but she definitely carried the film well. She's not entirely perfect in my eyes but her acting was solid. I greatly enjoyed the work of the supporting cast, especially Chris Pine as Steve Trevor. The No Man's Land sequence was for sure the highlight of the film, though I expected a bit more from it because I felt like I had seen a lot of it already before watching the actual movie. But I liked how it ended, especially with Diana smiling at the people she had helped. I must also add that I really liked that she wanted to help people. I liked that she got angry at Steve multiple times because he felt he was looking at the bigger picture when she actually had the even bigger picture in mind. I feel like her sense of hope was greatly missing from the DCEU and I'm glad she brought it with this movie
> 
> The only issues I had with this movie were that I felt the first act was a little bit rushed and for me, it came across as weird that for the most part, Steve (and almost everyone else) are extremely accepting of a race of warrior women still using swords, shields, spears and arrows, and that Steve still doubts Diana in some instances after seeing what she's capable of. Also, I found both Lutherdorff and Doctor Poison both boring. Ares was just slightly better because of the twist and because of his motivations. But I felt the actor was miscast, his look slightly uninspired, and his powers were a bit of an overload for me. This all lead to a third act I felt was a bit messy, and I would have preferred to see a more martial artsy face off between Diana and Ares, with Diana switching between sword and shield, lasso and hand-to-hand, while Ares matches that by pulling out almost every kind of weapon out of portals. I feel like that would have been better that the CGI bombardments of fire, smoke amd dust that plagued both MoS and BvS. Also found it odd that the movie spends the whole time setting up the God Killer sword as the way to defeat Ares, only to have him destroy it in one move (in what I believe was a weakened state?).
> 
> The slo-mo didn't bother me as much as I thought it would except in some instances, but it worked best when Diana crossed No Man's Land. The music for that scene is perfect and I even feel empowered by it as a guy lol. Overall, I really like what Patty did with this film and it has a very strong message. I also really liked the fighting style of the Amazons.
> 
> To end my rant, can anybody explain what Diana's powers are at the end of the film? I know she's stronger than the rest of the Amazons but I have no idea what happened when she raged and killed(?) the German soldiers, starts generating force fields and is able to redirect Ares' lightening with her bracelets. I don't how the bracelets work as well. I read somewhere that they're the Aegis of Zeus or something but I'd like a definite answer.


I'll reply more later (or someone else will get to it before me), but the sword wasn't the God-Killer...Diana was. They foreshadowed it early on when Hyppolyta says "she must never know what she truly is" or something to that effect. Diana was the gift from Zeus to defeat Ares, not the sword. That's why he could destroy it so easily. 

Hope this helps.

----------


## Fergus

> What does everyone make of Zack Snyder removing all of the JL imagery and logo from his Twitter? Lots of web chatter that he's pissed because it's not his movie anymore. This Saturday just got more interesting.


I would be pissed too if my fill-in guy started making minor changes. Dick move Whedon. The movie is still Zack's there isn't nearly enough time for Joss to make any major changes to the movie

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I say it's nothing. There's really nothing to speculate about. He's not working on the film anymore and he is mourning. Not a fan of his but I say give him a break.


Yeah, I think he even said something later on about it meaning nothing after so many jumped to conclusions.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I would be pissed too if my fill-in guy started making minor changes. Dick move Whedon. The movie is still Zack's there isn't nearly enough time for Joss to make any major changes to the movie


Outside of the score (and planned shots from before Snyder left), what has Whedon changed exactly?


Edit: to be clear, Whedon was hired by Zack to write & direct the reshoots/additional scenes before Zack announced his departure.

----------


## Fergus

> They already have strung 4 successful films financially in a row, so there's that.


Amazing how people always forget that

----------


## Fergus

> Outside of the score (and planned shots from before Snyder left), what has Whedon changed exactly?


Unauthorised change of the score is more than enough. Whedon's job is to follow and finish what Zack started nothing more. When Batgirl rolls around then he can tinker.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Amazing how people always forget that


Agreed. I guarantee some of these films would be viewed more favorably if they had a Marvel scroll at the beginning, instead of DC. 

Or if they said they were directed by Alan Smithee instead of Snyder lol

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Unauthorised change of the score is more than enough. Whedon's job is to follow and finish what Zack started nothing more. When Batgirl rolls around then he can tinker.


How do we know it was unauthorized? Junkie XL didn't know it was coming, but for all we know Snyder signed off on it.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Agreed. I guarantee some of these films would be viewed more favorably if they had a Marvel scroll at the beginning, instead of DC. 
> 
> Or if they said they were directed by Alan Smithee instead of Snyder lol


And if the Iron Man sequels, Thor 2, and Hulk films had a DC intro they would have been mercilessly panned. Instead they all got a pass.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I'll reply more later (or someone else will get to it before me), but the sword wasn't the God-Killer...Diana was. They foreshadowed it early on when Hyppolyta says "she must never know what she truly is" or something to that effect. Diana was the gift from Zeus to defeat Ares, not the sword. That's why he could destroy it so easily. 
> 
> Hope this helps.


Literally just saw someone else say this on another website ha, thanks for the info. I think I might remember that being mentioned by Ares in the movie. I thought those lines spoken by Hippolyta were in reference to her just being the 'daughter' of Zeus, which I found weird because Diana already knew that. This makes sense now.

Hmm... So Queen Hippolyta asked the gods for a daughter and Zeus granted her wish while also making a God Killer. Says a lot about the gods lol

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> And if the Iron Man sequels, Thor 2, and Hulk films had a DC intro they would have been mercilessly panned. Instead they all got a pass.


How I wish baseless claims like these would stop being made

----------


## Clark_Kent

I wish baseless claims of the DCEU not being successful would stop being made, but what are ya gonna do?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> How I wish baseless claims like these would stop being made


Those are bad movies.

----------


## Fergus

> How do we know it was unauthorized? Junkie XL didn't know it was coming, but for all we know Snyder signed off on it.


To be honest I don't just going by what was reported.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I wish baseless claims of the DCEU not being successful would stop being made, but what are ya gonna do?


What is it that people say? "Two wrongs don't make a right"? You know that the DCEU has had large (and unsurprising) commercial success. But I don't think it's a secret that critically things are quite different. From my own experience, the general audience is more invested in other superhero movies than that of WB/DC's. I think Suicide Squad was a bit of an exception but the GA loves Wonder Woman (and rightfully so). I just don't get this idea that there is critical bias against anyone in the superhero genre right now. It sounds like second hand jealousy to me. I won't get into it much, but I personally don't see how some DCEU fanatics can, after watching Wonder Woman, still defend the theatrical cut of BvS (which is what critics saw) and some of the flaws in MoS (a movie I like a little bit more since it came out.

I mean, Wonder Woman is way better than Thor 2, Iron Man 2 and The Incredible Hulk and the critical response shows that it is. Shouldn't you focus on that?

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Those are bad movies.


In your opinion they are bad movies. That does not make it a fact and critics don't have to think the way you do, or vice versa.

I personally don't like those movies (maybe save for Thor 2) that much anyway and I don't need any validation to feel that way. But I don't even think they are close to some of the god awful CBMs we've gotten ever.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> How I wish baseless claims like these would stop being made





> What is it that people say? "Two wrongs don't make a right"? You know that the DCEU has had large (and unsurprising) commercial success. But I don't think it's a secret that critically things are quite different. From my own experience, the general audience is more invested in other superhero movies than that of WB/DC's. I think Suicide Squad was a bit of an exception but the GA loves Wonder Woman (and rightfully so). *I just don't get this idea that there is critical bias against anyone in the superhero genre* right now. It sounds like second hand jealousy to me. I won't get into it much, but I personally don't see how some DCEU fanatics can, after watching Wonder Woman, still defend the theatrical cut of BvS (which is what critics saw) and some of the flaws in MoS (a movie I like a little bit more since it came out.
> 
> I mean, Wonder Woman is way better than Thor 2, Iron Man 2 and The Incredible Hulk and the critical response shows that it is. Shouldn't you focus on that?


I never said a word about critical bias.


Edit: My previous post, where I said they would be viewed more favorably if they had a Marvel scroll, was in response to a guy who said "amazing how people forget that", and his post in turn was in response to another poster pointing out that DC has had 4 straight successful films commercially. 

Nobody said anything about critical bias (well, the guy who agreed with me might have...but "mercilessly panned" could be critics or audiences. Perhaps you should ask him), although you sure are riled up about it. Shouldn't you focus on that?  :Smile:

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I never said a word about critical bias.
> 
> 
> Edit: My previous post, where I said *they would be viewed more favorably if they had a Marvel scroll*, was in response to a guy who said "amazing how people forget that", and his post in turn was in response to another poster pointing out that DC has had 4 straight successful films commercially. 
> 
> Nobody said anything about critical bias (well, not in the last couple pages I think), although you sure are riled up about it. Shouldn't you focus on that?


Look, I'm not here to argue but the bolded strongly suggests critical bias. If I read your intentions wrongly I apologise but if you can explain what else your point would mean, I'll accept that (of course you don't have to). I don't know what else it means other than " Oh it doesn't have a Marvel logo so they don't like it/won't see it the same way"

Edit: I think you mean "viewed more favourably" as in commercial success? If that's what you mean then I apologise for misreading it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I also don't understand "second hand jealousy". Is there where some guy gets jealous, and then he somehow hands his jealousy down to me like an old t-shirt? 

I kid, but seriously - I have very little interest in the MCU. I watch each one, own a few, they're alright. I recognize that others love it to death, and that's fine. I could do without it, but I'm grateful it exists...if it didn't, or if it weren't successful, we might not have the DCEU that I vastly prefer. Marvel can have their universe-by-committee, where each film looks like it was made by the same director & cinematographer; people LOVE that, and that's great! I prefer my DCEU, where the films have different tones, where risks are taken, and where the occasional Oscar comes home :P 

It's not jealousy to say that many would speak more favorably of some of the DCEU if they had a Marvel scroll at the beginning; brand recognition, and brand loyalty, are powerful things and the MCU has a bigger GA name. If you showed a non-comic reader Suicide Squad but told them it was made by the people that made Iron Man, I truly believe that person would be prepared to automatically enjoy it (assuming the person liked Iron Man, obviously). 

The reverse is also true, but you said I was exhibiting "second hand jealousy", so I'm focusing on just this side.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Look, I'm not here to argue but the bolded strongly suggests critical bias. If I read your intentions wrongly I apologise but if you can explain what else your point would mean, I'll accept that (of course you don't have to). I don't know what else it means other than " Oh it doesn't have a Marvel logo so they don't like it/won't see it the same way"
> 
> Edit: I think you mean "viewed more favourably" as in commercial success? If that's what you mean then I apologise for misreading it.


No need to apologize, we're all comic nerds here lol Just to clarify, "viewed more favorably" means "viewed more favorably"...I don't have a specific group in mind when I say that. You could lump critics in there I suppose, as my comment doesn't exclude them, but I'm talking in general of just "people". Lots of them are in this thread, lots on facebook. Just people.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I should add that I'm not talking fanboyism here. Just basic psychology. People are programmed to like "alike" things. Similar things. "If you loved Tomb Raider, you'll enjoy Uncharted!" = true, in most cases.

----------


## Carabas

> I wish baseless claims of the DCEU not being successful would stop being made, but what are ya gonna do?


It doesn't help their case that despite being financially succesfull by an rational measure, WB always gives off disappointed vibes about DC box offices.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It doesn't help their case that despite being financially succesfull by an rational measure, WB always gives off disappointed vibes about DC box offices.


If you want to talk corporations, we can talk corporations. We've been discussing people, though. I'd argue most who see these movies never see a single comment from corporate people.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I also don't understand "second hand jealousy". Is there where some guy gets jealous, and then he somehow hands his jealousy down to me like an old t-shirt? 
> 
> I kid, but seriously - I have very little interest in the MCU. I watch each one, own a few, they're alright. I recognize that others love it to death, and that's fine. I could do without it, but I'm grateful it exists...if it didn't, or if it weren't successful, we might not have the DCEU that I vastly prefer. Marvel can have their universe-by-committee, where each film looks like it was made by the same director & cinematographer; people LOVE that, and that's great! I prefer my DCEU, where the films have different tones, where risks are taken, and where the occasional Oscar comes home :P 
> 
> It's not jealousy to say that many would speak more favorably of some of the DCEU if they had a Marvel scroll at the beginning; brand recognition, and brand loyalty, are powerful things and the MCU has a bigger GA name. If you showed a non-comic reader Suicide Squad but told them it was made by the people that made Iron Man, I truly believe that person would be prepared to automatically enjoy it (assuming the person liked Iron Man, obviously). 
> 
> The reverse is also true, but you said I was exhibiting "second hand jealousy", so I'm focusing on just this side.


I don't want to be they guy that comes into a thread about X and starts talking about Y (I wasn't the one who brought up Marvel after all), but I respectfully disagree, especially with the first paragraph. I won't go into much detail on why as to avoid derailing the thread. However, I'd like to point out that I don't think the GA is that shallow. Yes, Marvel (and I believe you mean Marvel Studios) is a much larger name and the MCU is a modern day pop culture phenomenon, but there are people who don't know the difference between Marvel Studios, Fox and Sony Marvel movies. Hell, there are people who don't know the difference between Marvel and DC movies. My cousin used to think the Marvel and DC intros were that of production companies and not on wherethe source material came from. Some of my siblings have to ask me which is Marvel or DC when they watch these movies. Trust me, the GA doesn't care that much about brands in CBMs as they do for smartphones. 

It's not like the DCEU movies aren't doing very well commercially either. All four of their current movies have grossed way more than the first four MCU movies. We just learned that Wonder Woman is doing better than most superhero movies at the box office in the last 15 years, while Spider-Man: Homecoming just suffered a 60% drop domestically. Why would that be happening if there is some sort of preference? Why didn't Suicide Squad and BvS both bomb at the box office if there is some sort of preference, especially with that kind of critical response from both? Whether or not the GA goes out of a DCEU movie liking it or not is a different thing altogether, but to act like they aren't even going to see these movies because they're not Marvel movies just doesn't make sense to me anyway.

----------


## Carabas

> If you want to talk corporations, we can talk corporations. We've been discussing people, though. I'd argue most who see these movies never see a single comment from corporate people.


If the corporation puts the word out that they are unhappy with the performance of Dawn Of Justice, then people will perceive that film as a failure.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Cara Delevingne USA Today interview:




> Even though Delevingne’s archaeologist June Moone survived at the end of last year’s hit Suicide Squad after being possessed by the ancient witch Enchantress, she says she’s “pretty sure” she won’t be back for the expected sequel. “It was a life-changing experience and of course I’d do another one, but I don’t think it would make sense for the character.” Even if she’s not in it, though, “I’ll probably still be on the set hanging out with everyone.”


New Image of Ezra Miller's The Flash:

----------


## Carabas

That costume looks more terrible every time I see it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't want to be they guy that comes into a thread about X and starts talking about Y (I wasn't the one who brought up Marvel after all), but I respectfully disagree, especially with the first paragraph. I won't go into much detail on why as to avoid derailing the thread. However, I'd like to point out that I don't think the GA is that shallow. Yes, Marvel (and I believe you mean Marvel Studios) is a much larger name and the MCU is a modern day pop culture phenomenon, but there are people who don't know the difference between Marvel Studios, Fox and Sony Marvel movies. Hell, there are people who don't know the difference between Marvel and DC movies. My cousin used to think the Marvel and DC intros were that of production companies and not on wherethe source material came from. Some of my siblings have to ask me which is Marvel or DC when they watch these movies. Trust me, the GA doesn't care that much about brands in CBMs as they do for smartphones. 
> 
> It's not like the DCEU movies aren't doing very well commercially either. All four of their current movies have grossed way more than the first four MCU movies. We just learned that Wonder Woman is doing better than most superhero movies at the box office in the last 15 years, while Spider-Man: Homecoming just suffered a 60% drop domestically. Why would that be happening if there is some sort of preference? Why didn't Suicide Squad and BvS both bomb at the box office if there is some sort of preference, especially with that kind of critical response from both? Whether or not the GA goes out of a DCEU movie liking it or not is a different thing altogether, but to act like they aren't even going to see these movies because they're not Marvel movies just doesn't make sense to me anyway.


In regards to my first paragraph that you alluded to, that's 100% my opinion and I didn't mean it as a fact. I thought I said that, but looking back now I see I didn't. The pitfalls of posting on my phone! Ha! 

And to be clear, I don't mean it negatively when I say all Marvel films look the same (I'll give you Winter Soldier, and I find its uniqueness to be why it's my favorite of the bunch). And yes, I definitely mean Marvel Studios. Having a consistent look/color/tone/cinematography keeps the audience informed that each successive film is the next chapter in the story. It's similar to good television; many directors worked on Breaking Bad, for example, but if you didn't read the credits you'd be hard pressed to tell. I prefer the DCEU because of many reasons, but first and foremost is their differences in color/tone/cinematography. True, MoS and BvS look similar with the darkened color pallet, but it's to be expected due to having the same director. Suicide Squad had neon colors for intros, and while the rest of it wasn't flashy it was certainly more natural than Snyder's films. Wonder Woman had a very bright color pallet, and looked the most out of the bunch like an MCU film. It's a fantastic film, and deserves every bit the praise it's receiving. It's my opinion that part of its success lies in the way it looks...it appears familiar, which helps get some people out who may have not normally gone. 

As to the rest, we can agree to disagree. I don't believe having DC at the front keeps people from going at all, and if I implied that I certainly didn't mean to. But there is such a degree of "Marvel does no wrong" online and, anecdotally, in the wild that anything that attempts to compete with it is automatically labeled second best, or inferior. That's where my comment of the Marvel scroll at the beginning comes from. 

I will also admit that my original comment came off as snark, and maybe I meant that & maybe not. I haven't decided lol But I will definitely try to express myself more clearly, with less snark attached :P

----------


## Clark_Kent

> If the corporation puts the word out that they are unhappy with the performance of Dawn Of Justice, then people will perceive that film as a failure.


People online who actually see these comments might. Not everybody is as plugged in as we all are, though.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> That costume looks more terrible every time I see it.


What do you think of the TV version's costume?

----------


## Troian

> Is it bad that I forget about Comic Con? I used to religiously watch streams of it, now I just wait for highlights.


Me too lol. Now I only watch it for the superhero updates or I just skip everything and just read the highlights on a blog.

----------


## Carabas

> What do you think of the TV version's costume?


Honestly, I don't know what it looks like.

Last one I know was the New 52 one wich was sort of okayish.

*googles*

Ah, like the New 52 one, but slightly better and less busy.

Honestly, I feel he's never had that great a costume. I do like the costumes from the WB show. But the DCEU shiny enameled armour monstrosity with the 80's shoulder pads... sheesh.

I really dug the new Wally West costume with the darker red and silver I just saw.

----------


## Troian

Aesthetics wise I thought Flash had the worst costume out of the big 7 and even counting J'onn, his green skin complemented it. But hey maybe just maybe with time it will get better.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

I could deal with the armor, but I am really not a fan of making the emblem so... uneventful in his costume. That white background with a yellow lighting bolt is iconic to Barry Allen in every single respect, one of the most simple yet elegant designs on any superhero. Yet, for some inexplicable reason the live-action adaptations can't seem to get it right the first around. Don't remind me of that fugly red one we got in season one of the CW show. 

And now this. Why does DC hate the Flash's signature badge!?! LoL?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> And if the Iron Man sequels, Thor 2, and Hulk films had a DC intro they would have been mercilessly panned. Instead they all got a pass.


Of course, it's like how TFA gets aways with ruining Finn's character the moment he enters that Tie-Fighter, killing any, and all, complex storytelling with him, and people just give it a pass because he was a "fun" character.

Disney has made a lot of good, but the get a pass on so much of their crap (that's not Cars).

----------


## JediKage

Well that is because they distracted people by making Rey so special so now you cant complain about TFA without being called Sexist.

----------


## Johnny

> Well that is because they distracted people by making Rey so special so now you cant complain about TFA without being called Sexist.


Which is beyond sad because it shows how ridiculously close-minded these people are. Rey's gender should not make her immune to criticism. Characters' gender or race instantly making them critic-proof due to some perpetually offended oppression olympics participants is mindbogglingly embarrassing. You can't criticize Ghostbusters cause it makes you look sexist. You can't call Leslie Jones' character a racist stereotype, cause it somehow makes you the racist. People spreading bigotry under the guise of political correctness is some of the biggest bullshit I've seen in my life. And they keep getting away with doing this crap all the time. Pathetic.

----------


## Robotman

Wonder Woman officially passes Guardians of the Galaxy 2 domestic box office. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/19/w...-galaxy-vol-2/

----------


## JediKage

Congrats to Wonder Woman...hopefully JL will help her on the International Front. 




> Which is beyond sad because it shows how ridiculously close-minded these people are. Rey's gender should not make her immune to criticism. Characters' gender or race instantly making them critic-proof due to some perpetually offended oppression olympics participants is mindbogglingly embarrassing. You can't criticize Ghostbusters cause it makes you look sexist. You can't call Leslie Jones' character a racist stereotype, cause it somehow makes you the racist. People spreading bigotry under the guise of political correctness is some of the biggest bullshit I've seen in my life. And they keep getting away with doing this crap all the time. Pathetic.


Meh the main argument is Luke and Anakin were Mary Sues as well and calling her that is sexist....Anakin was in TPM not so much later on because he was creepy and unlikeable...but Luke just makes me laugh. 
Luke was fare more Finn in ANH then he was Rey.

----------


## Carabas

> Congrats to Wonder Woman...hopefully JL will help her on the International Front. 
> 
> 
> 
> Meh the main argument is Luke and Anakin were Mary Sues as well and calling her that is sexist....Anakin was in TPM not so much later on because he was creepy and unlikeable...but Luke just makes me laugh. 
> Luke was fare more Finn in ANH then he was Rey.


Expanded Universe Luke did pull a lot of crazy-awesome stuff that makes other Jedi look like spoonbenders though.

----------


## Confuzzled

Yeah there's no point in singling out Rey as a Mary Sue because Anakin and Luke were the Grand-daddy and Daddy of Mary Sues [/No spoiler] 

It comes with the territory.

----------


## Bukdiah

> That costume looks more terrible every time I see it.


Yeah, he looks like a bootleg power ranger or a Halo character. The shoulder pads is what bothers me lol

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah, he looks like a bootleg power ranger or a Halo character. The shoulder pads is what bothers me lol


I can't stand fingerless gloves on superheroes, they look so dopey.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Still not loving the costume but it's growing on my slightly. It looks very red, which is important, and I like the head shape. While I don't like the fragmented armor look, it fits to his body much better than the TV Show's costume. The emblem needs work, but I think the 2nd costume ameliorates all of this.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I can't stand fingerless gloves on superheroes, they look so dopey.


I mostly agree. Especially in Barry's case. I mean the guy's a forensic scientist! If he was planning on stepping outside the law, you'd think he'd want to make sure he wasn't leaving fingerprints all over the place!

I would say there's one exception to the "no fingerless gloves" rule, however. Street brawler types like Black Canary. I could see her choosing to wear some kind of MMA-style gloves. She's human and it makes sense for her to want to protect her hands, and she'd want freedom of motion in her fingers for when she goes for grappling techniques. That's the whole point of MMA gloves: protect your hands while still allowing you to grab things.

But yeah, fingerless gloves don't help a hero like Barry at all.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah, he looks like a bootleg power ranger or a Halo character. The shoulder pads is what bothers me lol


It is funny how much better the suit looks on the mannequin!




> I can't stand fingerless gloves on superheroes, they look so dopey.


They can work for street level fighters.  This just screams of a costume designer trying  "their own take" on a costume.




> But yeah, fingerless gloves don't help a hero like Barry at all.


I seriously hope the 2nd costume more closely resembles the concept art seen on the BvS extended site.

----------


## Frontier

> What do you think of the TV version's costume?


I really liked the future version we saw in season 3, if only because it was more comic-accurate. 

At least it's not as busy as this suit.

----------


## batnbreakfast

The Batfleck costume is two steps backwards from Nolan's for me. Cowl, ears, symbol, all ugly. Liking the material and how it looks more like a comicbook costume, though.

----------


## Confuzzled

I'm pretty sure the Flash suit is temporary and only for this movie (possibly not even for its entirety). Maybe Bruce will give him an upgrade?

----------


## darkseidpwns

Batfleck costume is just a gritty version of Schumachers costume. Fake 8 pack abs and fake 18 inch biceps have replaced fake nipples.

----------


## Robotman

Both Cyborg and The Flash have horrible designs. Hard to get excited about either of them. I hope there's a scene at the end where they both get a better look but I seriously doubt that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I'm pretty sure the Flash suit is temporary and only for this movie (possibly not even for its entirety). Maybe Bruce will give him an upgrade?


They have said as much.  However I don't think we'll actually see it until the very end of the movie when all the action is done.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Both Cyborg and The Flash have horrible designs. Hard to get excited about either of them. I hope there's a scene at the end where they both get a better look but I seriously doubt that.


They've stated that Flash gets a second suit not made by him but from Wayne Enterprises.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

There was a description of the 2nd Flash suit on a Brazilian movie site, it was shown during the JL set visit: https://omelete.uol.com.br/filmes/no...a-a-descricao/

Translation...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Steppenwolf toy...

https://i.redd.it/n78vguhdblaz.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> They've stated that Flash gets a second suit not made by him but from Wayne Enterprises.


So Bruce Wayne is the Tony Stark to Barry's Peter Parker  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Steppenwolf toy...
> 
> https://i.redd.it/n78vguhdblaz.jpg


Okay, if that's how he looks in the movie, I completely retract my earlier "Star Trek alien" complaint.

He looks like a badass and a half, here!  :Smile:

----------


## Styles

> Steppenwolf toy...
> 
> https://i.redd.it/n78vguhdblaz.jpg


Damn, that looks pretty ill. If there is a JL trailer this weekend, do u all think that Steppenwolf will be in it?

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Steppenwolf looks too generic to me. It's probably the overuse of grey.

----------


## Frontier

> Steppenwolf looks too generic to me. It's probably the overuse of grey.


They seem to be basing it of his New 52/Earth-2 design so I'm surprised they didn't throw some red in there.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Hot Toys' Justice League and Supes...







Is it just me or is Supes suit brighter? I quite like it. Hopefully it translates on film. So far I only really like Wonder Woman's costume (it would be perfect is her skirt was just a little bit longer and they got rid of the brown wraps on her hands). Aquaman's look is pretty cool (I'm a sucker for costumes with cultural influences), but it doesn't still look like an Aquaman look to me but here's to hoping it grows on me.

----------


## Bukdiah

Did you take these pictures yourself?!

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Steppenwolf looks too generic to me. It's probably the overuse of grey.





> They seem to be basing it of his New 52/Earth-2 design so I'm surprised they didn't throw some red in there.


Some colour would be nice since he kinda just looks like Ares now. 

Also wanted to ask: How strong is Steppenwolf? I mean, Supes, Bats and Wondy have already faced Zod, Doomsday and Ares and won (though Supes did have to die to kill Doomsday). Zod and Ares are both ridiculously powerful, and this movie has The Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg thrown into it. Unless the Parademons don't come across as Chitauri-esque fodder, I don't see how Steppenwolf is a threat. Unless he's really powerful and I did read he's a brilliant strategist so there's that.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Did you take these pictures yourself?!


Ha... I wish. I found them on a website. Should have put the source I guess.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

More stuff

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Okay that last one was too cute not to post

----------


## Blind Wedjat



----------


## Blind Wedjat



----------


## Lightning Rider

Sweet, thanks for the pics.

----------


## byrd156

Seeing the League together feels so Lackluster to me. The colors and costumes are so off and they don't really feel iconic like the Justice League should feel.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Seeing the League together feels so Lackluster to me. The colors and costumes are so off and they don't really feel iconic like the Justice League should feel.


It's the opposite for me, each character stands on their own and seeing them together excites me. I don't like some of the costume choices but I can't objectively say they're "so off".

----------


## Bukdiah

Lego Justice League is so cool

----------


## Bukdiah

> Seeing the League together feels so Lackluster to me. The colors and costumes are so off and they don't really feel iconic like the Justice League should feel.


The colors look very muted in the banner, but I'm not sure if it's lighting or something else. Flash looks more like the Maroon Speedster instead of Scarlet lol

----------


## SuperiorIronman

The colors are fine but could be better. It doesn't really pop though and that could be for easier distinction between Marvel and DC brands when it comes to marketing, at least I hope. it could very well be and hopefully somebody didn't put another gray filter on the movie.

These colors can work though. I get what's going on with Aquaman considering his costume is more regal (similarly to how Thor doesn't make a full transition to screen). If anybody I'm worried about on screen, it's Cyborg. Flash's new costume will probably make up for it's suckage but Cyborg is busy and silver. I really hope he doesn't stay like that the whole movie since if the CG still doesn't get cleaned up it will be easy to tell he isn't really there, or in a mo-cap suit.

----------


## nightw1ng

I doubt I'm the first to mention it, but the more I learn about Justice League, the more I'm wondering as to whether the general public is going to see it as an Avengers rip off due to the many similarities.  There's a bringing together of heroes for the first time, powerful cube/box like object(s), the threat of an alien invasion, a horned villain who really is a harbinger for a greater cosmic villain, and the involvement of Joss Whedon.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I doubt I'm the first to mention it, but the more I learn about Justice League, the more I'm wondering as to whether the general public is going to see it as an Avengers rip off due to the many similarities.  There's a bringing together of heroes for the first time, powerful cube/box like object(s), the threat of an alien invasion, a horned villain who really is a harbinger for a greater cosmic villain, and the involvement of Joss Whedon.


If it's "fun" enough, I doubt people will kick up a fuss. Doctor Strange was basically Iron Man with a different skin to the general audience and they still liked it. Since DC got into the game late, it's damned if they do, damned if they don't.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Mera...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

JL's vehicles (Nightcrawler and Flying Fox)

----------


## Robotman

> I doubt I'm the first to mention it, but the more I learn about Justice League, the more I'm wondering as to whether the general public is going to see it as an Avengers rip off due to the many similarities.  There's a bringing together of heroes for the first time, powerful cube/box like object(s), the threat of an alien invasion, a horned villain who really is a harbinger for a greater cosmic villain, and the involvement of Joss Whedon.


Not to mention the fact that the plot sounds very similar to Lord of the Rings. Long ago different factions joined forces to combat the ultimate evil from ruling the earth. After they successfully defeated the evil being, objects of power were given to the different groups. Now the evil has returned to earth in search of the objects of power. A fellowship must be assembled to save humanity.




> These colors can work though. I get what's going on with Aquaman considering his costume is more regal (similarly to how Thor doesn't make a full transition to screen). *If anybody I'm worried about on screen, it's Cyborg.* Flash's new costume will probably make up for it's suckage but Cyborg is busy and silver. I really hope he doesn't stay like that the whole movie since if the CG still doesn't get cleaned up it will be easy to tell he isn't really there, or in a mo-cap suit.


I'm so disappointed in the Cyborg design.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Not to mention the fact that the plot sounds very similar to Lord of the Rings. Long ago different factions joined forces to combat the ultimate evil from ruling the earth. After they successfully defeated the evil being, objects of power were given to the different groups. Now the evil has returned to earth in search of the objects of power. A fellowship must be assembled to save humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so disappointed in the Cyborg design.


I'm more dissapointed he's on the team in the first place. But yeah his design is just terrible.

----------


## JediKage

I am disappointed in both...he is on the team and he looks terrible...sheesh DC aint no way he is standing up Black Panther.

----------


## Johnny

I don't think it matters this much to them. They don't have to "answer" to everything Marvel do. When it comes to diversity, DC seems to be scoring a lot more points with their female characters.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Seeing the League together feels so Lackluster to me. The colors and costumes are so off and they don't really feel iconic like the Justice League should feel.


For me, it's less about how they look and more about the fact that I only really care about one of them, which is Wonder Woman (seriously, I'm so in love with her character rn). I think it makes sense that they all look very different, because they come from different places and have very different abilities: WW is from Themyscira, Aquaman is part Atlantean and Superman is Kryptonian and their looks show that. Batman and the Flash also made their own costumes and Cyborg looks the way he does because of a Motherbox. 

I do just think I would care about this movie a lot more if I liked Superman and Batman as well. Maybe one other member should have gotten a movie.




> If it's "fun" enough, I doubt people will kick up a fuss. Doctor Strange was basically Iron Man with a different skin to the general audience and they still liked it. Since DC got into the game late, it's damned if they do, damned if they don't.


I'd argue that Ant-Man was more of an Iron Man copycat than Doctor Strange since both movies dealt with science/tech and powered suits while Doctor Strange was more about magic/mysticism and some philosophy. 

I just think the DCEU thus far hasn't done a very good job at making the GA care about more of their characters. At least to me it feels that way.




> I'm so disappointed in the Cyborg design.


Honestly, same. I wish they went less Ultron/Megatron/Terminator and gave him a lot more skin.




> I don't think it matters this much to them. They don't have to "answer" to everything Marvel do. When it comes to diversity, DC seems to be scoring a lot more points with their female characters.


That's pretty true for the most part. They did get a female solo out faster than Marvel Studios. Part of me hopes Black Widow doesn't die so we can get a solo from her Directed by the Russos or the guy that did Hanna

----------


## Lightning Rider

New photo, Star Labs suggested.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Hot Toys' Justice League and Supes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me or is Supes suit brighter? I quite like it. Hopefully it translates on film. So far I only really like Wonder Woman's costume (it would be perfect is her skirt was just a little bit longer and they got rid of the brown wraps on her hands). Aquaman's look is pretty cool (I'm a sucker for costumes with cultural influences), but it doesn't still look like an Aquaman look to me but here's to hoping it grows on me.


I'm loving the S here...looks bigger than the BvS shield he wore. And the suit does look brighter, so here's hoping it pops on screen.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> New photo, Star Labs suggested.


The Just-Three League lol

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The Just-Three League lol


To be honest I'm glad he's featured with the other two so prominently. He seems to have multiple scenes where they do stuff together.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The Just-Three League lol


Well, we already know that Barry was the easiest recruit for the new team. It's not surprising that there may be a few scenes in which he's the only other member with them. Aquaman and Cyborg probably take longer to join up.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Well, we already know that Barry was the easiest recruit for the new team. It's not surprising that there may be a few scenes in which he's the only other member with them. Aquaman and Cyborg probably take longer to join up.


Or there is a divide and conquer strategy, or one group has been captured, or one group is on a Superman rescue mission. Or the three are investigating the mother box at Star Labs or seeing Cyborg for the first time.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> To be honest I'm glad he's featured with the other two so prominently. He seems to have multiple scenes where they do stuff together.





> Well, we already know that Barry was the easiest recruit for the new team. It's not surprising that there may be a few scenes in which he's the only other member with them. Aquaman and Cyborg probably take longer to join up.


Oh I promise I'm not making fun. I'm just noticing that most stills feature these three.

----------


## Troian

Is that a Mera barbie doll?

----------


## darkseidpwns

Gadot just gets better and better looking as Diana. But someone needs to do something about those Batman and Flash costumes. Those fake muscles are an eye sore.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Is that a Mera barbie doll?


That Barbie face is unmistakable...

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Gadot just gets better and better looking as Diana. But someone needs to do something about those Batman and Flash costumes. Those fake muscles are an eye sore.


Michael Keaton called... he wants his rubber suit back  :Mad:

----------


## Punisher007

That's one of the inherent problems with translating comics to live-action.  Actual muscles on your body, abs for instance, aren't going to stick through a cloth costume like they do in the comics.  So if you want to have the "comic book physique" look, then you kind of have to do something like this.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> That's one of the inherent problems with translating comics to live-action.  Actual muscles on your body, abs for instance, aren't going to stick through a cloth costume like they do in the comics.  So if you want to have the "comic book physique" look, then you kind of have to do something like this.


That problem was solved long ago: Blade, Captain America (Evans), Nolan's Batman, Magneto, Wolverine etc.
IMHO at least

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> That's one of the inherent problems with translating comics to live-action.  Actual muscles on your body, abs for instance, aren't going to stick through a cloth costume like they do in the comics.  So if you want to have the "comic book physique" look, then you kind of have to do something like this.


It only really looks good on Superman. Or on Black Panther's new suit. But it just ridiculous on Batman in my opinion. He looks a bit heavy in some angles and I just can't help but think Ben Affleck is uncomfortable in the suit. I doubt most superhero costumes are comfortable anyway (except for maybe Doctor Strange's) but it just looks obvious to me anyway. I doubt a guy wearing a suit like that can actually move fast.

Flash's abs kinda look out of place since Ezra's a pretty lean guy. I know Gal's costume has got them too but that's like muscle cuirass which is very fitting.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Michael Keaton called... he wants his rubber suit back


Keatons was all Black, his scenes were out in the street or in dark places and that was 30 years ago. MCU Cap costume from TWS is the ideal, it was like upgraded Nolan. This is just Schumacher levels shit, except its gritty instead of campy but the intent is still the same. One makes you think of roid heads while the other was supposed to evoke Greek Gods.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> It only really looks good on Superman. Or on Black Panther's new suit. But it just ridiculous on Batman in my opinion. He looks a bit heavy in some angles and I just can't help but think Ben Affleck is uncomfortable in the suit. I doubt most superhero costumes are comfortable anyway (except for maybe Doctor Strange's) but it just looks obvious to me anyway. I doubt a guy wearing a suit like that can actually move fast.
> 
> Flash's abs kinda look out of place since Ezra's a pretty lean guy. I know Gal's costume has got them too but that's like muscle cuirass which is very fitting.


Superman's suit shows Cavill's actual muscles,these are just fake muscles. I dont mind fake abs on exoskeleton armor but on a body suit? GTFO.

----------


## Punisher007

> That problem was solved long ago: Blade, Captain America (Evans), Nolan's Batman, Magneto, Wolverine etc.
> IMHO at least


Not really.  Blade doesn't wear a traditional costume, nor does Wolverine.  Captain America's suit has clear padding on it (to mimic body armor), as does Magneto, etc.

It's simply not the same as in the comics.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Not really.  Blade doesn't wear a traditional costume, nor does Wolverine.  Captain America's suit has clear padding on it (to mimic body armor), as does Magneto, etc.
> 
> It's simply not the same as in the comics.


Yeah but they're proof that you don't need to go the "bodysuit with fake muscles" route

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Not really.  Blade doesn't wear a traditional costume, nor does Wolverine.  Captain America's suit has clear padding on it (to mimic body armor), as does Magneto, etc.
> 
> It's simply not the same as in the comics.


It doesn't have to be the same as the comics for me. I named great examples of how to not use the "ridiculous" costumes from the source material. Instead do great adaptions. They can midnighter Batman for all I care.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Affleck's costume is thick in the torso but otherwise looks fine to me. His muscles aren't supposed to be fake, and even if they are, it's part of the intimidation aspect of the costume. Even the Batman Begins costume had muscle contours. Flash's are also subtle.

----------


## nightbird

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp...-shoot-1022821

----------


## Vanguard-01

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp...-shoot-1022821


I hope this if for real! Shazam would be very well-received by the movie audience I'll bet!  :Smile:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I hope this if for real! Shazam would be very well-received by the movie audience I'll bet!


It's also good that the movie won't feature Black Adam (likely a tease, tho). 

Him being the Shazam sequel, after being developed and characterized in his own movie, will give him more weight as a character, and antagonist.

----------


## Carabas

> That's one of the inherent problems with translating comics to live-action.  Actual muscles on your body, abs for instance, aren't going to stick through a cloth costume like they do in the comics.  So if you want to have the "comic book physique" look, then you kind of have to do something like this.


I think we should perhaps stop wanting the "comic book physique".

Anyway, Marvel seems to have been able to largely avoid this issue, it is not a problem that is inherent to superhero movies.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

http://heroicuniverse.com/shazam-sui...-opening-2019/

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I hope this if for real! Shazam would be very well-received by the movie audience I'll bet!


This is...odd news. Unless it turns out that Black Adam actually is a big part here, I find the timing odd for such a character if Johnson isn't attached to it. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. Just surprised that Cap, er, Shazam would be a higher priority than a dozen other characters. Interesting news at any rate! 

I wonder if they will have casting announcements this weekend. Shooting that early, they must have something.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Comic Book Cast seems to think this is legit. And if their information is correct, Billy will also be disabled. If they handle that right, it could be a great and inspiring movie for other disabled children and that's just one more feather in DC's cap when it comes to representation. Everybody wins.




I also think we'll have a casting announcement soon. According to the video, they're just waiting for a director to fully commit to the project. That makes me think that everything else is lined up and ready to go, so why not tell us who's playing him?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Comic Book Cast seems to think this is legit. And if their information is correct, Billy will also be disabled. If they handle that right, it could be a great and inspiring movie for other disabled children and that's just one more feather in DC's cap when it comes to representation. Everybody wins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also think we'll have a casting announcement soon. According to the video, they're just waiting for a director to fully commit to the project. That makes me think that everything else is lined up and ready to go, so why not tell us who's playing him?


The director was on Reddit after today's story hit and confirmed he's doing it. I think that part is all sewn up. They're saving the casting announcement for the panel on Saturday.

----------


## Robotman

Cena is actually a pretty good actor. He was hilarious the Breakup and Tour de Pharmacy. I can see him play Cap.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The director was on Reddit after today's story hit and confirmed he's doing it. I think that part is all sewn up. They're saving the casting announcement for the panel on Saturday.


Yep. Looks like it's going to be David F. Sanberg. 

Bit of an odd choice, really. He's best known for doing horror movies. I hope he shows he's got some real range with this movie and can capture the optimism and joy of the character.

But either way, Lights Out was one of the very best-directed horror movies I've seen in quite a while, so there's no denying this guy's got the chops. I'll bet he was referred to WB by James Wan, since Wan produced Lights Out.

----------


## Frontier

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp...-shoot-1022821


I'm happy we'll at least be getting Billy first and without having to share screentime with Black Adam. 

I'm guessing that Sivana or Mr. Mind will probably be the main villains.

----------


## Robotman

I have anther gripe about the Justice League designs. The Mother Box design is too damn boring. They really should have included some Kirby circuitry.

----------


## Frontier

> Comic Book Cast seems to think this is legit. And if their information is correct, *Billy will also be disabled.* If they handle that right, it could be a great and inspiring movie for other disabled children and that's just one more feather in DC's cap when it comes to representation. Everybody wins.


Isn't that Freddy's thing?

----------


## Clark_Kent

I hope it's not Cena. We got lucky with Johnson, because he can actually act...I'd rather see an unknown who can bulk up, instead of another wrestler. 

With Infinity War releasing next year & the trailer description getting out, my gut tells me WB/DC want to blow people away at the Con with a megaton announcement to counter. For me, it would be a release date for MoS 2 along with a writer & director. What kind of announcement would make you guys jump out of your seat and yell "hell yeah!"?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I have anther gripe about the Justice League designs. The Mother Box design is too damn boring. They really should have included some Kirby circuitry.


Going by the boxes seen in BvS & the JL trailer, I think the boxes look pretty cool myself. They look alive (as they should). The toy designs are a little bland, if that's what you were referring to.

----------


## Troian

> That Barbie face is unmistakable...


Don't follow news was kind of shocked haha!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I have anther gripe about the Justice League designs. The Mother Box design is too damn boring. They really should have included some Kirby circuitry.


I'm thinking that those designs are just their "default mode." Can't Mother Boxes basically assume any shape or design? I doubt it's a coincidence that one of those boxes looks suspiciously similar to Wonder Woman's shield. 




> Isn't that Freddy's thing?


Traditionally, yes. 

It's possible they just aren't planning to do the whole Shazam Family. Not yet anyway. Just like Wonder Woman, this movie will probably be seen as something of a gamble on WB's part, so they may opt for a fairly minimalist approach. If this movie sells like hotcakes? Maybe THEN they'll think about bringing in Mary, Freddy, and possibly the other New 52 kids.

----------


## Frontier

> Traditionally, yes. 
> 
> It's possible they just aren't planning to do the whole Shazam Family. Not yet anyway. Just like Wonder Woman, this movie will probably be seen as something of a gamble on WB's part, so they may opt for a fairly minimalist approach. If this movie sells like hotcakes? Maybe THEN they'll think about bringing in Mary, Freddy, and possibly the other New 52 kids.


I can see that, it would just feel weird to see them give Billy Freddy's thing. 

But I expect Mary will show up at least, even if she might not become Mary Marvel (but given DC is really keen on showcasing female heroes, I wouldn't be surprised if she does).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I can see that, it would just feel weird to see them give Billy Freddy's thing. 
> 
> But I expect Mary will show up at least, even if she might not become Mary Marvel (but given DC is really keen on showcasing female heroes, I wouldn't be surprised if she does).


Yeah, but if you're trying to make a movie to inspire disabled kids, do you have the disabled character as the supporting character or the main character? It's a change, but it may ultimately have a bigger impact on the audience. We're entering into an age of firsts in CBMs. Wonder Woman was the first female-led CBM that was both critically and financially successful. Marvel is bringing out the first nearly all-black movie. Stands to reason DC may want to claim the title of "First CBM featuring a disabled lead." 

Oh, and if Mary shows up, she's totally getting her power-up. Wonder Woman has no doubt started quite a scramble for female superheroes and there's no way WB lets her go to waste.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> I have anther gripe about the Justice League designs. The Mother Box design is too damn boring. They really should have included some Kirby circuitry.


Thought I was the only one. Injustice 2 has better Mother box designs. In the trailer they glow so hopefully the effects are cool. So far the New God materials like Cyborg, Mother Boxes and Steppenwolf look so uninspired.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*New Promo Image of Flash and Ezra Miller Talks Batman & Wonder Woman*






> In speaking to EW, Miller said:
> 
> In Diana and Bruce, you have two very different veteran mentalities. Wonder Woman has this powerful compassion. Bruce is more irritable, less tolerant.
> 
> Barrys in total awe of them. He knows this is the big leagues.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Comic Book Cast seems to think this is legit. And if their information is correct, Billy will also be disabled. If they handle that right, it could be a great and inspiring movie for other disabled children and that's just one more feather in DC's cap when it comes to representation. Everybody wins.
> 
> I also think we'll have a casting announcement soon. According to the video, they're just waiting for a director to fully commit to the project. That makes me think that everything else is lined up and ready to go, so why not tell us who's playing him?


I don't know if I trust Comic Book Cast. That guy seems to cling to the idea that the Marvel tv shows will cross over into the movie universe in spite of every indication that Feige wants nothing to do with ABC's garbage.  So I don't think he's very accurate.

Anyway, if Cena does get the role of Captain Marvel, that would be massive and damn near perfect to counter the Rock as Black Adam. Yes, I want to see those two together in this movie. 

About Billy being disabled, I'm not sure I like that idea.  Disability is something that people have to come to terms with and I've never been comfortable with the idea that it could be remedied by happening upon super powers. I like it more when the crippled person earns their powers through their own efforts. For example, I think a character like Iron Man would work as a disabled hero because his suit would give him the ability to fight in spite of his disability. There's a certain lesson to take from that which is good for disabled persons, as opposed to being given a way around disability with little to no effort to earn it. I hope I'm making sense.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't know if I trust Comic Book Cast. That guy seems to cling to the idea that the Marvel tv shows will cross over into the movie universe in spite of every indication that Feige wants nothing to do with ABC's garbage.  So I don't think he's very accurate.


Well, it's starting to show up in other sources, so it looks like it's gaining credibility. 




> Anyway, if Cena does get the role of Captain Marvel, that would be massive and damn near perfect to counter the Rock as Black Adam. Yes, I want to see those two together in this movie.


IF we get those two in a movie together, we'd better get Jim Ross to make a cameo, gosh darn it!  :Big Grin: 




> About Billy being disabled, I'm not sure I like that idea.  Disability is something that people have to come to terms with and I've never been comfortable with the idea that it could be remedied by happening upon super powers. I like it more when the crippled person earns their powers through their own efforts. For example, I think a character like Iron Man would work as a disabled hero because his suit would give him the ability to fight in spite of his disability. There's a certain lesson to take from that which is good for disabled persons, as opposed to being given a way around disability with little to no effort to earn it. I hope I'm making sense.


True enough. Although in Billy's case, I believe it's the purity in his heart that makes him worthy of the power. He "earns" his power by being exactly the kind of person who deserves to be given such powers. 

And you could always add some kind of trials prior to his acquiring the power. Billy has to somehow make it to the Rock of Eternity and prove himself worthy of the power to the wizard. There are ways to make that look like an earned thing.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I hope it's not Cena. We got lucky with Johnson, because he can actually act...I'd rather see an unknown who can bulk up, instead of another wrestler. 
> 
> With Infinity War releasing next year & the trailer description getting out, my gut tells me WB/DC want to blow people away at the Con with a megaton announcement to counter. For me, it would be a release date for MoS 2 along with a writer & director. What kind of announcement would make you guys jump out of your seat and yell "hell yeah!"?


An Apokolips movie starring Mister Miracle escaping Darkseid, directed by George Miller, written by either himself, and/or Jonathan Nolan, being announced would have me doing backflips.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I can see that, it would just feel weird to see them give Billy Freddy's thing. 
> 
> But I expect Mary will show up at least, even if she might not become Mary Marvel (but given DC is really keen on showcasing female heroes, I wouldn't be surprised if she does).


They should just make the Shazam family DC's equivalent of the Power Rangers and give the others names like Blue Shazam, Green Shazam, Silver Shazam etc.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Confuzzled

> An Apokolips movie starring Mister Miracle escaping Darkseid, directed by George Miller, written by either himself, and/or Jonathan Nolan, being announced would have me doing backflips.


Yes. Barda in the Furiosa role obviously  :Big Grin:

----------


## Lightning Rider

I really would not want John Cene in the role. Nothing about him screams Captain Marvel to me. 

About Billy being disabled, am I mistaken or didn't Alex Ross & Paul Dini also give him crutches in the "World's Greatest Superheroes" collection?

----------


## Bukdiah

All the John Cena talks crack me up lol. I just imagine him doing this in the movie

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'm still a little annoyed that The Rock isn't just being Shazam. 

He'll be fine as black adam but he's got great comedic chops and I think he could nail the superhero BIG vibe that this movie needs.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Having watched The Handmaiden... Chan-wook Park would make a great director for a Catwoman movie (or Gotham City Sirens) if only he were interested. :Frown:  :Frown:  The Handmaiden features a catwomanesque character, kinda undercover in a mansion she plans to rob. Sets and costumes are beautiful photographed. A pipe dream, I know.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

And there it is: Warner Bros plotting for future Batman that isn't Ben Affleck. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/21/b...fleck-leaving/

Zack Snyder is so god damn stupid. How the hell was he allowed to cast a Batman that old in the first place?!? Does anyone over there have any ounce of foresight? Now we're going to have a DCEU without Bruce Wayne. Wonderful. So glad we got the terrible adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns (not really).

----------


## darkseidpwns

CALLED IT, CALLED IT, CALLED IT.

He left the directors chair CONFIRMED
His script is out CONFIRMED

Him as Batman will be completely dependent on Reeves pitch and the reception to JL, if JL doesn't perform the way Affleck wants then he's OUT. Thank You Zack, the modern day Schumacher.

Oh well bring on Dick and Damian, the only silver lining here.

Cant wait for DCEU fanboys to defend visionary Snyder.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> And there it is: Warner Bros plotting for future Batman that isn't Ben Affleck. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/21/b...fleck-leaving/
> 
> Zack Snyder is so god damn stupid. How the hell was he allowed to cast a Batman that old in the first place?!? Does anyone over there have any ounce of foresight? Now we're going to have a DCEU without Bruce Wayne. Wonderful. So glad we got the terrible adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns (not really).


This "inside source" seems go be going against what Warner Bros. and Reeves are explicitly saying. 

*Yes, Warners’ film studio chief Toby Emmerich tells The Hollywood Reporter, "Ben is our Batman. We love him as Batman. We want to keep him in the cowl as long as we can." And Matt Reeves, who will direct the studio’s still-undated (and unwritten) The Batman, has said that he means to keep Affleck in the role. But a source with knowledge of the situation says that the studio is working on plans to usher out Affleck’s Batman — gracefully, addressing the change in some shape or form in one of the upcoming DC films.*

Batfleck has been my favorite Batman so it was worth it on my end.

----------


## maxmcco

> I'm still a little annoyed that The Rock isn't just being Shazam. 
> 
> He'll be fine as black adam but he's got great comedic chops and I think he could nail the superhero BIG vibe that this movie needs.


totally agree

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> CALLED IT, CALLED IT, CALLED IT.
> 
> He left the directors chair CONFIRMED
> His script is out CONFIRMED
> 
> Him as Batman will be completely dependent on Reeves pitch and the reception to JL, if JL doesn't perform the way Affleck wants then he's OUT. Thank You Zack, the modern day Schumacher.
> 
> Oh well bring on Dick and Damian, the only silver lining here.
> 
> Cant wait for DCEU fanboys to defend visionary Snyder.


I can't even blame Snyder that much anymore. WB put him in charge of the whole connected universe for a good long period---and why? How was it okay for him to have a script for BvS that came well over 300 pages. Why was it okay for him to adapt a storyline for Batman that takes place at the end of Batman's career as the kickoff film for the DCEU (effectively)? Where was the intervention from WB? WTF. 

And oh yeah...this is the same director that made Justice League. WTF did DC fans do to deserve this incompetence while Marvel fans get careful plotting and handling of their characters?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> CALLED IT, CALLED IT, CALLED IT.
> 
> He left the directors chair CONFIRMED
> His script is out CONFIRMED
> 
> Him as Batman will be completely dependent on Reeves pitch and the reception to JL, if JL doesn't perform the way Affleck wants then he's OUT. Thank You Zack, the modern day Schumacher.
> 
> Oh well bring on Dick and Damian, the only silver lining here.
> 
> Cant wait for DCEU fanboys to defend visionary Snyder.


If Ben leaves it's because of Ben. He knew what all of these projects were going in. I doubt he's going to want to miss out on what will shape up to be possibly the best Batman film of all.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> This "inside source" seems go be going against what Warner Bros. and Reeves are explicitly saying. 
> 
> *Yes, Warners’ film studio chief Toby Emmerich tells The Hollywood Reporter, "Ben is our Batman. We love him as Batman. We want to keep him in the cowl as long as we can." And Matt Reeves, who will direct the studio’s still-undated (and unwritten) The Batman, has said that he means to keep Affleck in the role. But a source with knowledge of the situation says that the studio is working on plans to usher out Affleck’s Batman — gracefully, addressing the change in some shape or form in one of the upcoming DC films.*
> 
> Batfleck has been my favorite Batman so it was worth it on my end.



Worth it on your end? Well, you just paid for the meal you just ate. The problem is the deal means you're not going to eat again for a long time. We'll see if you still think it's worth it 4 years from now when we will have had 2 more Justice League movies without a Bruce Wayne. It's massive void (And I'm a Superman fan).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Worth it on your end? Well, you just paid for the meal you just ate. The problem is the deal means you're not going to eat again for a long time. We'll see if you still think it's worth it 4 years from now when we will have had 2 more Justice League movies without a Bruce Wayne. It's massive void (And I'm a Superman fan).


That's a huge leap in logic there. I'll wait until any of this happens instead of having a meltdown about what might happen in 4 years. So far it's typical "Rumor, RUMOR, *RUMOR THE DCEU IS DOOOOOOOOOMEDuh!!!*

----------


## Styles

This reminds me of the "source" that said that Wonder Woman is a mess.

----------


## Agent Z

> CALLED IT, CALLED IT, CALLED IT.
> 
> He left the directors chair CONFIRMED
> His script is out CONFIRMED
> 
> Him as Batman will be completely dependent on Reeves pitch and the reception to JL, if JL doesn't perform the way Affleck wants then he's OUT. Thank You Zack, the modern day Schumacher.
> 
> Oh well bring on Dick and Damian, the only silver lining here.
> 
> Cant wait for DCEU fanboys to defend visionary Snyder.


Called what? Maybe wait until WB actually confirms this as something other than rumors before breaking out the champagne at more heresay?

----------


## Agent Z

> This reminds me of the "source" that said that Wonder Woman is a mess.


Careful. You'll break the anti Snyder crowd's heat by pointing out how many unfounded rumors there've been about these films.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Honestly? I started predicting that Bruce Wayne may not last through the entire DCEU just about as soon as it was revealed that Batman was going to be already a twenty year veteran in BvS. 

And frankly? I'm cool with it. Why?

1.) It makes sense that Batman may not be able to hang with the Justice League for very long against the kind of threats they face. Especially since he's technically past his prime. 

2.) It's a great opportunity to showcase the vastness of the Bat Family by clearing the way to show more of them. If Dick Grayson takes up the cowl after Bruce, that leaves a window open for a new Robin, possibly a new Batgirl depending on what they specifically do with Barbara in her movie, and possibly a few other Bat-heirs as well. Heck, if they REALLY want to blow people's minds? Bring in Batwoman and have HER replace Bruce. What? A female Batman in the movies? Given the huge success of Wonder Woman, demand for more female heroes is high. Having a woman take up the most iconic mantle in CBM history would DEFINITELY get people talking.

3.) It shows a degree of respect to the other Justice Leaguers by showing that a powerless man is at a massive disadvantage in the kind of stories in which the League participates. Yeah, the movie audience has been used to seeing Batman as this unconquerable badass in multiple movies for decades, but this is the first time they've EVER seen him try to share the spotlight with godlike beings. Yes, this could be true for whoever Bruce's replacement turns out to be as well, but you could easily have that replacement learn from whatever mistakes Bruce may have made and figure out other ways to be relevant in Justice League stories. 

So, yeah. I'm cool with this. As long as they handle it right, I think it could be quite the shakeup for the DCEU.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Called what? Maybe wait until WB actually confirms this as something other than rumors before breaking out the champagne at more heresay?


That he would leave the directors chair and I suspected that he'd pull out of the DCEU soon. It all comes down to JL, if that thing stinks then Ben is out. I know I would ditch this franchise and preserve my reputation if I was in his shoes and no amount of Batman fanboyism would have stopped me.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Honestly? I started predicting that Bruce Wayne may not last through the entire DCEU just about as soon as it was revealed that Batman was going to be already a twenty year veteran in BvS. 
> 
> And frankly? I'm cool with it. Why?
> 
> 1.) It makes sense that Batman may not be able to hang with the Justice League for very long against the kind of threats they face. Especially since he's technically past his prime. 
> 
> 2.) It's a great opportunity to showcase the vastness of the Bat Family by clearing the way to show more of them. If Dick Grayson takes up the cowl after Bruce, that leaves a window open for a new Robin, possibly a new Batgirl depending on what they specifically do with Barbara in her movie, and possibly a few other Bat-heirs as well. Heck, if they REALLY want to blow people's minds? Bring in Batwoman and have HER replace Bruce. What? A female Batman in the movies? Given the huge success of Wonder Woman, demand for more female heroes is high. Having a woman take up the most iconic mantle in CBM history would DEFINITELY get people talking.
> 
> 3.) It shows a degree of respect to the other Justice Leaguers by showing that a powerless man is at a massive disadvantage in the kind of stories in which the League participates. Yeah, the movie audience has been used to seeing Batman as this unconquerable badass in multiple movies for decades, but this is the first time they've EVER seen him try to share the spotlight with godlike beings. Yes, this could be true for whoever Bruce's replacement turns out to be as well, but you could easily have that replacement learn from whatever mistakes Bruce may have made and figure out other ways to be relevant in Justice League stories. 
> ...


What evidence do we have that supports they can handle things right? Unless Patty Jenkins is now in charge---it's doomed.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> If Ben leaves it's because of Ben. He knew what all of these projects were going in. I doubt he's going to want to miss out on what will shape up to be possibly the best Batman film of all.


And maybe dunderhead Snyder should have considered that when he cast him.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I think I'd prefer them to just recast Bruce Wayne and not move Dick into the cowl.

----------


## Punisher007

Casting an older Batman was always a bit iffy when it came to the larger universe.  For a singular film like BVS, yeah the logic is obvious.  Older, more experienced and hardened Batman who's been doing it for decades vs. younger greener Superman barely out of his first big mission.  Makes sense.

But if you want to go for an extended universe meant to last for years (or indefinitely like the MCU is set up to do), then having Batman START as a 40-something year old was always going to be tricky.

Heck Nolan waited until the final film of his trilogy to do that, in BB and TDK Bruce is still in his first year or so of being Batman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I can't even blame Snyder that much anymore. WB put him in charge of the whole connected universe for a good long period---and why? How was it okay for him to have a script for BvS that came well over 300 pages.


Because WB specifically authorized him to write a movie that long. There's no mystery here. He was told from the start that he could make a 3-hour long movie, only to have WB renege on that at the eleventh hour. 




> Why was it okay for him to adapt a storyline for Batman that takes place at the end of Batman's career as the kickoff film for the DCEU (effectively)? Where was the intervention from WB? WTF.


There was no intervention because they approved of what he was doing. Every step of the way, he had their blessing to do this stuff. Even IF this rumor is correct, then that just means they saw an opportunity to take this whole 'aging Batman" angle and do something new and potentially cool with it. 




> And oh yeah...this is the same director that made Justice League. WTF did DC fans do to deserve this incompetence while Marvel fans get careful plotting and handling of their characters?


They authorized him to write a trilogy of movies that was supposed to establish and kick off a DC shared universe. What the plan was for what came after that trilogy isn't 100% clear, and may have gone through a few revisions, but then again Marvel's plans (contrary to popular belief) have also changed more than once. All they really had planned out was the general direction of "We're heading for a big showdown with Thanos." The specific steps of the journey were NOT planned out too far in advance. 

The MCU only looks like this flawlessly designed machine because they didn't have a single movie that got critically blasted, nor did they have any movies that underperformed at the box office. If even one or two of Marvel's earlier movies had gone through what MOS and BvS went through, people would have been just as nervous about the MCU. At least that nervousness would've persisted for quite  a while. By now, they probably would've made up for lost ground.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Because WB specifically authorized him to write a movie that long. There's no mystery here. He was told from the start that he could make a 3-hour long movie, only to have WB renege on that at the eleventh hour. 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no intervention because they approved of what he was doing. Every step of the way, he had their blessing to do this stuff. Even IF this rumor is correct, then that just means they saw an opportunity to take this whole 'aging Batman" angle and do something new and potentially cool with it. 
> 
> 
> 
> They authorized him to write a trilogy of movies that was supposed to establish and kick off a DC shared universe. What the plan was for what came after that trilogy isn't 100% clear, and may have gone through a few revisions, but then again Marvel's plans (contrary to popular belief) have also changed more than once. All they really had planned out was the general direction of "We're heading for a big showdown with Thanos." The specific steps of the journey were NOT planned out too far in advance. 
> ...


My fundamental point was this is on WB, not Snyder. Snyder can't help himself, but WB should have stepped in. To your point, they made it even worse by authorizing several of those decisions.

----------


## The Kid

> And there it is: Warner Bros plotting for future Batman that isn't Ben Affleck. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/21/b...fleck-leaving/
> 
> Zack Snyder is so god damn stupid. How the hell was he allowed to cast a Batman that old in the first place?!? Does anyone over there have any ounce of foresight? Now we're going to have a DCEU without Bruce Wayne. Wonderful. So glad we got the terrible adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns (not really).


Not confirmed yet but I fcking called it! No one here believed me when I said this was a serious possibility

----------


## dietrich

> CALLED IT, CALLED IT, CALLED IT.
> 
> He left the directors chair CONFIRMED
> His script is out CONFIRMED
> 
> Him as Batman will be completely dependent on Reeves pitch and the reception to JL, if JL doesn't perform the way Affleck wants then he's OUT. Thank You Zack, the modern day Schumacher.
> 
> Oh well bring on Dick and Damian, the only silver lining here.
> 
> Cant wait for DCEU fanboys to defend visionary Snyder.


You know I love Batfleck however Dick and Damian might be just thing for this DCEU.
Are audiences ready for a Batman not called Bruce Wayne and who isn't a broody edgelord though?

----------


## HandofPrometheus

An older batman at the start of a new cinematic universe was stupid. Hopefully they incorporate Dionysium into the movies  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## The Kid

> I think I'd prefer them to just recast Bruce Wayne and not move Dick into the cowl.


Same but as far as I'm concerned, they already ruined Bruce Wayne. If they don't recast with a young actor, just cut losses and make Dick Batman 

Goddamn BvS is like a giant albatross tied to WBs neck that's still doing damage

----------


## Beantownbrown

> *An older batman at the start of a new cinematic universe was stupid.* Hopefully they incorporate Dionysium into the movies


Word, I thought the same thing too. Affleck is an old guy. He’s now 45 and he’s talked about how grueling it is to stay in shape for the role. Makes sense that he wouldn’t want to continue in it for a long time.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Maybe they can retire Superman and replace him with Lana Lang. Makes sense too and if handled right could be quite the shake up for DCEU, same goes for Wonder Woman, just give us Artemis.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Same but as far as I'm concerned, they already ruined Bruce Wayne. If they don't recast with a young actor, just cut losses and make Dick Batman 
> 
> Goddamn BvS is like a giant albatross tied to WBs neck that's still doing damage


I agree. BVS went too astray for the DCEU.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Not confirmed yet but I fcking called it! No one here believed me when I said this was a serious possibility


So did I lol.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> What evidence do we have that supports they can handle things right? Unless Patty Jenkins is now in charge---it's doomed.


Gee, I dunno? Maybe the fact that I happen to have enjoyed all the DCEU movies so far? As far as I'm concerned, they've been handling plenty of things right. Have they made some mistakes? Sure. But the good far outweighs the bad IMHO.

You don't agree with me? That's fine. But just assuming that everyone feels the same way about these movies as you do is definitely not a good stance to take. 

Oh, and there are other talented people than just Patty Jenkins working with the DCEU, BTW. James Wan is working on Aquaman. He's insanely popular and talented and his fanbase has complete confidence in him. Confidence he has earned (so far) by putting out nothing but great movies that people have loved. So far, everything we've seen from the Aquaman movie looks like it's going to be amazing. We now know we've got a Shazam movie coming up. Odds are that will do much to show people that the "Snyder Era" of the DCEU is over and things are improving. Joss Whedon is working on Batgirl and may begin working on other DCEU films after that. He has a proven track record as well.

The DCEU is NOT "doomed." One guy may have made some mistakes that a lot of people didn't like. That guy is more or less gone now. Geoff Johns and Jon Berg just showed what the DCEU can look like under their leadership with Wonder Woman, and their efforts have already been richly rewarded. The tide has turned and things are looking up even if you didn't like the previous three movies.

----------


## Robotman

If Dick is already Nightwing and Jason has died in the DCEU then Bruce still needs to be a bit older. Not 50 mind you but definitely a veteran superhero. Late 30s maybe.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I don't get all the discussions about age. Ben is not too old to portray Batman, he's just overworked and fresh out of rehab. 

Aside from not killing I'm not sure what else people would want in a Bruce Wayne.

----------


## Doctor Know

I can't wait for the new Justice League trailer to drop tomorrow, so we can talk about that. The neverending echo chamber chanting the DCEU's doom is so boring. 

You know, maybe I should start my own rumor one day. Just to see how many people pick up and recite a vague assertion, with innuenndo regarding a project/actor's dissatifaction, with unnamed "sources" (which I will also make-up) that allegedly told me this information. 

I can only do this with a WB movie though. Because despite the volume of other super hero properties produced by Disney, Sony, Fox and AMC, only WB seems to have a never ending stream of official "sources" and leakers who talk to the media. Hmmmm, I wonder why that is?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> My fundamental point was this is on WB, not Snyder. Snyder can't help himself, but WB should have stepped in. To your point, they made it even worse by authorizing several of those decisions.


You talk about how they should've stepped in but you don't seem to get that they DIDN'T THINK THEY NEEDED TO STEP IN. Why? Because they were convinced that these ideas were going to be good ones. Were they right? Maybe not as right as they'd like to have been. Still? They took some chances. They tried some new things. In an industry that is frequently criticized for being creatively bankrupt, I can understand this. 

Meanwhile? They're continuing to forge ahead and they're making adjustments as they go. Wonder Woman represents these new adjustments that they have made right now, and if they keep it up, things WILL turn around for them in pretty short order.




> Maybe they can retire Superman and replace him with Lana Lang. Makes sense too and if handled right could be quite the shake up for DCEU, same goes for Wonder Woman, just give us Artemis.


If Cavill and Gadot don't want to play these roles into their 50s, they just might have to do that. Or they may have to go for a reboot or switch to another DCU in which the characters are different enough to be played by different people.

in the meantime? Replacing Superman and Wonder Woman won't be as high a priority because Superman and Wonder Woman are basically immortal and can survive the rigors of Justice League service far better than a fifty-year-old man with no powers can.

----------


## Carabas

> You know I love Batfleck however Dick and Damian might be just thing for this DCEU.
> Are audiences ready for a Batman not called Bruce Wayne and who isn't a broody edgelord though?


How is Damian not a broody edgelord? 

Audiences won't care but I suspect DC/WB isn't quite ready for that. Whenever a writer tries to soften Batman, things are back to grimdark edgyness from the opening naration of the next writer's very first issue.

Anyway, Batfleck was my second favourite component of the DCEU, so it's pretty much just Gal Gadot keeping my interest now. At least they're having Whedon to replace Snyder, so there is hope.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Maybe they can retire Superman and replace him with Lana Lang. Makes sense too and if handled right could be quite the shake up for DCEU, same goes for Wonder Woman, just give us Artemis.


Stop trolling.

----------


## Punisher007

The thing is, it's a risk as there's no guarantee that the GA would accept a non-Bruce Wayne Batman.  Especially since those characters have yet to be established in the DCEU themselves yet anyway.  And also you shouldn't be looking to replace you actor before he's even had ONE solo film of his own.

That's just poor planning/foresight on WB's part.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Stop trolling.


Another poster said the same thing, I dont see you calling them on it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> How is Damian not a broody edgelord? 
> 
> Audiences won't care but I suspect DC/WB isn't quite ready for that. Whenever a writer tries to soften Batman, things are back to grimdark edgyness from the opening naration of the next writer's very first issue.
> 
> Anyway, Batfleck was my second favourite component of the DCEU, so it's pretty much just Gal Gadot keeping my interest now. At least they're having Whedon to replace Snyder, so there is hope.


The fun in damian is that he is a broody edgelord, but he's also a bratty teenager who batman (dick) just wants to mellow out. 

Depending on the casting I'd be more than happy with Grayson taking over. The character is strong enough IMO.

Also, do people really think this is WB's fault? Seems obvious it has more to do with Ben's personal issues.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Meanwhile...WB might have been planning and writing Man of Steel 2 this whole time:

http://heroicuniverse.com/script-man-steel-2/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Meanwhile...WB might have been planning and writing Man of Steel 2 this whole time:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/script-man-steel-2/


I have been toying with the thought that they may hold back an MOS 2 announcement for a big surprise tomorrow! I'm still expecting Henry Cavill to be a surprise arrival at the panel tomorrow, and wouldn't it be great if he showed up with a surprise announcement on his sequel? 

Fingers crossed!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Another poster said the same thing, I dont see you calling them on it.


There's a clear difference and you know it. Which is why you're trolling.

----------


## The Kid

> So did I lol.


True I think you have been the only person here who shares my views on BvS and the DCEU here lol. I really think they're about to soft reboot the universe

----------


## MosSuperman

Aquaman teaser tomorrow? Maybe?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> True I think you have been the only person here who shares my views on BvS and the DCEU here lol. I really think they're about to soft reboot the universe


I hope so, I dont even mind Bruce getting replaced as Dick's era as Batman was great. But they wont replace Bruce because they liked Dick, they'll do it because Hack Snyder pushed them in to corner with no way out.
Same goddamn thing but the difference in the intent and planning is astronomical.

----------


## dietrich

> How is Damian not a broody edgelord? 
> 
> Audiences won't care but I suspect DC/WB isn't quite ready for that. Whenever a writer tries to soften Batman, things are back to grimdark edgyness from the opening naration of the next writer's very first issue.
> 
> Anyway, Batfleck was my second favourite component of the DCEU, so it's pretty much just Gal Gadot keeping my interest now. At least they're having Whedon to replace Snyder, so there is hope.


He is but he isn't Batman. He's broody edgelord Robin.
I actually enjoyed Zack's DCEU work so far. BvS was a bit busy but i liked it a great deal.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Aquaman teaser tomorrow? Maybe?


They'll definitely have SOMETHING Aquaman related for us tomorrow. They felt the need to separately mention the Aquaman team's presence at Comic-Con. You don't do that unless you want people to pay special attention to them. 

It's probably too soon for a full trailer, but I'm betting they'll at least have a sizzle reel for us or something.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I have been toying with the thought that they may hold back an MOS 2 announcement for a big surprise tomorrow! I'm still expecting Henry Cavill to be a surprise arrival at the panel tomorrow, and wouldn't it be great if he showed up with a surprise announcement on his sequel? 
> 
> Fingers crossed!


Glad you and I can get back to our most common agreement: Superman.  :Smile: 

I still don't think they'd announce MOS 2 tomorrow, but it's #1 on my wishlist. 

No matter what, I think the Affleck stuff will get most of the headlines if they say anything other than a hardline "No. That report was completely false. Ben will be Bruce in The Batman."

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I hope so, I dont even mind Bruce getting replaced as Dick's era as Batman was great. But they wont replace Bruce because they liked Dick, they'll do it because Hack Snyder pushed them in to corner with no way out.
> Same goddamn thing but the difference in the intent and planning is astronomical.


Snyder didn't push anyone into any damn corner. Everyone knew what they were getting into. If Ben leaves it's because of Ben. There is no "corner" he pushed anyone into. Ben could easily continue playing Batman and look the same, and if he leaves that's his decision due to external reasons.

----------


## Agent Z

> How is Damian not a broody edgelord? 
> 
> Audiences won't care but I suspect DC/WB isn't quite ready for that. Whenever a writer tries to soften Batman, things are back to grimdark edgyness from the opening naration of the next writer's very first issue.
> 
> Anyway, Batfleck was my second favourite component of the DCEU, so it's pretty much just Gal Gadot keeping my interest now. At least they're having Whedon to replace Snyder, so there is hope.


He's an edgelord but I wouldn't call him broody.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Snyder didn't push anyone into any damn corner. Everyone knew what they were getting into. If Ben leaves it's because of Ben. There is no "corner" he pushed anyone into. Ben could easily continue playing Batman and look the same, and if he leaves that's his decision due to external reasons.


Ben can easily continue playing Batman at 45 years of age for the next 15 years, he has to continuously keep himself in top shape and his reward so far are 2 critical bombs, yeah ok Ben leaving is a smart choice, he's risking his health and reputation aka external reasons. 

Snyder pushed WB in to a corner by casting someone like Affleck and then delivering a shitty film that ruined everything.

----------


## Agent Z

edited post.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Ben can easily continue playing Batman at 45 years of age for the next 15 years, he has to continuously keep himself in top shape and his reward so far are 2 critical bombs, yeah ok Ben leaving is a smart choice, he's risking his health and reputation aka external reasons. 
> 
> Snyder pushed WB in to a corner by casting someone like Affleck and then delivering a shitty film that ruined everything.


Who said any of them need to play these characters for the next 15 years? Where did that timetable come from? And yes, external reasons means his alcoholism. Unless you're now going to spin his alcoholism as Snyder's fault too.

That "shitty film that ruined everything" made them a bunch of money and kickstarted a series of financially successful films that will continue to make them money. You didn't like it, we know, tough shit. Stop trolling.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Given WB's love for Batfleck during production of BvS (remember the demand for more Batman in the film?) and now the studio head saying “Ben is our Batman. We love him as Batman. We want to keep him in the cowl as long as we can," I'm actually starting to wonder if this wasn't leaked by Affleck's agent as a means of getting leverage for more money. Robert Downey Jr. has done this about 4 times now to Marvel Studios.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

So supposedly another rumor saying there's going to be a harley quinn vs Joker movie....Tommorow needs to come so we can hear this movie slate. If all these rumors are true I'm done lol

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So supposedly another rumor saying there's going to be a harley quinn vs Joker movie....Tommorow needs to come so we can hear this movie slate. If all these rumors are true I'm done lol


I don't mind a Joker & Harley Quinn movie. In Fact, SS would have been better served if it was just that instead and called that instead. But why does WB have to sensationalize these characters with the "vs." so much?

----------


## Frontier

> So supposedly another rumor saying there's going to be a harley quinn vs Joker movie....Tommorow needs to come so we can hear this movie slate. If all these rumors are true I'm done lol


I don't think we need a Harley Quinn vs. Joker movie. 

Maybe a Gotham City Sirens vs. Joker movie...

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

The hits keep coming. Apparently another source saying the Whedon reshoots were massive:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...ported-a152681

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Ben can easily continue playing Batman at 45 years of age for the next 15 years, he has to continuously keep himself in top shape and his reward so far are 2 critical bombs, yeah ok Ben leaving is a smart choice, he's risking his health and reputation aka external reasons. 
> 
> Snyder pushed WB in to a corner by casting someone like Affleck and then delivering a shitty film that ruined everything.


So I guess we're just totally ignoring the very real possibility that Affleck is dropping out due to personal issues related to alcoholism and his marriage collapsing?

Cool, let the panic begin!




> The hits keep coming. Apparently another source saying the Whedon reshoots were massive:
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...ported-a152681


Lol, love how they made an article out of one sentence from the actual article.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Screen Shot 2017-07-21 at 4.21.23 PM.jpg

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...93692335640576

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The hits keep coming. Apparently another source saying the Whedon reshoots were massive:
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...ported-a152681


Don't see how that would work. Jason Momoa came back for re-shoots and he was only there for about a week before he went back to Australia.

We'll see tomorrow, I guess. If the trailer looks like a radically different movie from the previous two trailers, we'll know for sure.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Stop trolling.


It's his specialty though. For me, it's amazing what having a few posters on ignore can do...it's so nice.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

The re shoots began and ended quick. Funny these rumors pop up day before the panel....

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I have been toying with the thought that they may hold back an MOS 2 announcement for a big surprise tomorrow! I'm still expecting Henry Cavill to be a surprise arrival at the panel tomorrow, and wouldn't it be great if he showed up with a surprise announcement on his sequel? 
> 
> Fingers crossed!


I mentioned this in a post here yesterday...this would get me yelling "hell yeah!"

If it happens, I'll be sure to come in and all caps I CALLED IT over and over though.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Who said any of them need to play these characters for the next 15 years? Where did that timetable come from? And yes, external reasons means his alcoholism. Unless you're now going to spin his alcoholism as Snyder's fault too.
> 
> That "shitty film that ruined everything" made them a bunch of money and kickstarted a series of financially successful films that will continue to make them money. You didn't like it, we know, tough shit. Stop trolling.


You're my new favorite poster. 

If Affleck leaves, it's because of his own decision. Realistically, as long as his face continues to look good (as in, not saggy or wrinkly) he could play Batman for a very long time. The stunt doubles do 90% of the action work, and he'd look good in the suit even if he were a stick. Just add more padding (and put him in suits that hide his lack of muscle definition) and he'd be good to go. He's also a major name, so WB will want him around as long as possible. His time as Batman will be up to him.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't think we need a Harley Quinn vs. Joker movie. 
> 
> Maybe a Gotham City Sirens vs. Joker movie...


Personally, I want a Joker / Harley road trip movie that takes place moments after Suicide Squad. Bonnie & Clyde, as only the Joker and Harley Quinn can do it. With Batman busy hunting down the JL, you could have Nightwing or Batgirl as the hero chasing them through the mad couple's trail of destruction. 

Of course, it's too late for part of that to happen...but a guy can dream!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The re shoots began and ended quick. Funny these rumors pop up day before the panel....


Yep. Hammer, meet nail. None of the cast were around long enough for "extensive" reshoots.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yep. Hammer, meet nail. None of the cast were around long enough for "extensive" reshoots.


Uh oh. That means WB re-casted all the parts. No wonder the Affleck rumor leaked!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

What's happening guys?. Figured I'd give myself a break from this thead until SDCC, since we'll actually have something concrete to discuss not rumours!! 

Anyway Apes 3 maybe my favourite film ever, the more I think about it. Reeves if given creative freedom will do something special with Bats!

----------


## manofsteel1979

Oh I love all the self congratulatory cork popping and jerking off over an unsubstantiated rumor from an " unnamed" source. Anyone remember when we were being told " LOL Wonder Woman movie is a mess it's a failure DCEU will collapse! LOL"? 

How did that work out again? Oh yeah...WW critically praised, setting records and overtook Guardians 2 in the Box office and will likely beat Spidey homecoming and Planet of the Apes 3.Biggest hit of the summer and depending on how things turn out , perhaps the year. Not bad for a film that was " doomed to fail".

So...I smell bullshit from the usual bullshitters. Nothing to see here. I'll be back when we hear REAL news and not made up crap to support a narrative that started because Zack Snyder raped your childhoods. Or something .

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I don't want to just believe all these rumours that are coming the DCEU's way but I'll admit I'm not the biggest fam of Ben Affleck as Batman. He looks the part, sure, but I personally can't stand Ben as an actor. There's something about the way he delivers his lines that I don't like. But he's not terrible and his Bruce Wayne, under different writing circumstances could really shine.

I don't know how I feel about the idea of JL having extensive reshoots. I mean, I won't lie when I say I didn't think I would have liked it with just Zack Snyder at the helm as I'm not a fan of his style. And I do prefer Joss Whedon's style. But it wouldn't be good if this movie has tonal clashes. I don't know how I feel about it tbh.

With this talk of a Harley Quinn and Joker... I think WB really need to release some kind of slate. While their DCEU is successful, I feel like it doesn't have order and I don't know what anything is leading up to. I don't know where this universe is supposed to be going and for me, it's hard yo be invested in it this way. Like, what are these upcoming movies supposed to establish in the DCEU? I think these are some of the things WB needs to set straight.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's his specialty though. For me, it's amazing what having a few posters on ignore can do...it's so nice.


I have quite a few.  I can only see their redundant posts because some people can't stop responding to them.

----------


## The Kid

> Oh I love all the self congratulatory cork popping and jerking off over an unsubstantiated rumor from an " unnamed" source. Anyone remember when we were being told " LOL Wonder Woman movie is a mess it's a failure DCEU will collapse! LOL"? 
> 
> How did that work out again? Oh yeah...WW critically praised, setting records and overtook Guardians 2 in the Box office and will likely beat Spidey homecoming and Planet of the Apes 3.Biggest hit of the summer and depending on how things turn out , perhaps the year. Not bad for a film that was " doomed to fail".
> 
> So...I smell bullshit from the usual bullshitters. Nothing to see here. I'll be back when we hear REAL news and not made up crap to support a narrative that started because Zack Snyder raped your childhoods. Or something .


There is a difference between the comic book bloggers and trades like Hollywood Reporter, THR, Variety etc.. The latter are very accurate when it comes to Hollywood news.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I don't want to just believe all these rumours that are coming the DCEU's way but I'll admit I'm not the biggest fam of Ben Affleck as Batman. He looks the part, sure, but I personally can't stand Ben as an actor. There's something about the way he delivers his lines that I don't like. But he's not terrible and his Bruce Wayne, under different writing circumstances could really shine.
> 
> I don't know how I feel about the idea of JL having extensive reshoots. I mean, I won't lie when I say I didn't think I would have liked it with just Zack Snyder at the helm as I'm not a fan of his style. And I do prefer Joss Whedon's style. But it wouldn't be good if this movie has tonal clashes. I don't know how I feel about it tbh.
> 
> With this talk of a Harley Quinn and Joker... I think WB really need to release some kind of slate. While their DCEU is successful, I feel like it doesn't have order and I don't know what anything is leading up to. I don't know where this universe is supposed to be going and for me, it's hard yo be invested in it this way. Like, what are these upcoming movies supposed to establish in the DCEU? I think these are some of the things WB needs to set straight.


I agree, WB can and should handle things better and they've made mistakes. That's an entirely different thing than proclaiming the entire DCEU a failure and glomming onto every little rumor as fact Because it supports a bias formed back in 2013 Because Snyder didn't make the Superman movie some were wanting and expecting. I mean to this day you have people ranting endlessly about " Hobo of STEEL! Man of Muhrdurr!!!!Not muh Superman!!!". You'd think after 4 years people would get over it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> What's happening guys?. Figured I'd give myself a break from this thead until SDCC, since we'll actually have something concrete to discuss not rumours!! 
> 
> Anyway Apes 3 maybe my favourite film ever, the more I think about it. Reeves if given creative freedom will do something special with Bats!


It was something special.  Credit has to be given to the writers as well.  So many layers to the movie.  That being said if Affleck does step down I hope that he does it before The Batman and not after.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> There is a difference between the comic book bloggers and trades like Hollywood Reporter, THR, Variety etc.. The latter are very accurate when it comes to Hollywood news.


Yet there are few here that give equal weight to both and use it to tell everyone " see? It's all a failure! ". 

Is it possible Affleck is leaving? Of course. Is it fact? Far from it. Is it the end of the DCEU if it's true? Nope,even though there are few that wish that were the case.  

Until we hear Affleck or Reeves actually make an on the record statement addressing it or an official announcement, it's just a rumor. Again so many were sure WW would fail and fail big based on a rumor fueling a narrative. It did the exact opposite. Show me hard proof and then it is what it is. Until JL comes out and until Reeves actually starts shooting The Batman, it's all just idle chatter with no credibility. Time will tell.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> It was something special.  Credit has to be given to the writers as well.  So many layers to the movie.  That being said if Affleck does step down I hope that he does it before The Batman and not after.


I loved Apes 3. A beautiful movie. The whole trilogy is Wonderous. I loved WW and really like Spiderman homecoming and Guardians 2, but if there were Justice Apes 3 would be the biggest money maker.  Which is why I think Reeves is perfect for Batman. He gets it, I think.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

This pretty much sums up what I want to happen during tomorrow's panel as well: 

http://heroicuniverse.com/4-reveals-...mic-con-panel/

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Damn JL is 4 months away. We definitely getting footage. If we don't get Aquaman footage I want art showing Mera using powers and Atlantis. A movie slate is really needed. If Geoff Johns was the force behind WW tone then let him take over. Alot of people loved WW and rated it one of the best cbm. I loved the tone and it felt perfect.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Hmm...seeing rumors that Flashpoint could be used to bring in a younger Bruce. That would be a clever way to do it. If so, I'm happy again!

----------


## Serpico Jones

Jon Schnepp said a few months ago that Justice League was going to end with Flashpoint as a way to reboot the entire DCEU. I don't know if he was just speculating or if he had inside info but it now looks much more likely.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Jon Schnepp said a few months ago that Justice League was going to end with Flashpoint as a way to reboot the entire DCEU. I don't know if he was just speculating or if he had inside info but it now looks much more likely.


I think you keep almost all the actors except Affleck and maybe Leto.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Jeff Sneider says Affleck's personal problems are "much worse than people think". He also said that Affleck looks to be in rough shape physically.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I loved Apes 3. A beautiful movie. The whole trilogy is Wonderous. I loved WW and really like Spiderman homecoming and Guardians 2, but if there were Justice Apes 3 would be the biggest money maker.  Which is why I think Reeves is perfect for Batman. He gets it, I think.


Really liked WW but yeah, Apes 3 was a legitimately great film in a great trilogy. Very excited for the Batman.

----------


## Frontier

> Damn JL is 4 months away. We definitely getting footage. If we don't get Aquaman footage I want art showing Mera using powers and Atlantis. A movie slate is really needed. If Geoff Johns was the force behind WW tone then let him take over. Alot of people loved WW and rated it one of the best cbm. I loved the tone and it felt perfect.


Or maybe revealing concept art or the looks for Black Manta and Ocean Master...

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think you keep almost all the actors except Affleck and maybe Leto.


I think from a marketing stand point it would be wise to find a way to drop Leto and Eisenberg.   It is very doubtful that those two would change their takes on the character.  They are just as polarizing as Snyder is in the DCEU... who I think WB/DC is trying to slowly distance themselves from.  I've always said that Snyder's name (whether justified or not) will hurt critical and popular reception of JL.  The costume designer who  approved Leto's Joker design should also be held accountable.  Costume designers want to make things their own.  I get that... but they also must be held accountable for the choices they made.  Ayer should be as well for the Joker and Harley face tattoos.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Who said any of them need to play these characters for the next 15 years? Where did that timetable come from? And yes, external reasons means his alcoholism. Unless you're now going to spin his alcoholism as Snyder's fault too.
> 
> That "shitty film that ruined everything" made them a bunch of money and kickstarted a series of financially successful films that will continue to make them money. You didn't like it, we know, tough shit. Stop trolling.


Its a figure of expression,point is that its a long term commiment.
BVS didn't even make enough to finance its own sequel haha.
Whatever ,you DCEU lovers will reject this news and when it comes to pass you'll claim it was part of the plan all along and then you'll be using Affleck's age and problems to say it totally makes sense or something.

Its standard operation procedure for you people. Its not even that you DCEU lovers are attacking me for taking a rumour too seriously much as you guys love to claim. Another DCEU lover right here has also accepted this rumor or seriously considered it atleast but not one word from you guys telling him to cool it down.

In short there's no actual difference of opinion here, one side just loves DCEU while the other wants to love it but has serious reservations.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Jon Schnepp said a few months ago that Justice League was going to end with Flashpoint as a way to reboot the entire DCEU. I don't know if he was just speculating or if he had inside info but it now looks much more likely.


Nobody is "rebooting" a film series this huge. Lots of people saw MoS and BvS, lots and lots. They just need to move forward and get creative people involved that have something genuine to say with these concepts and characters.

Nothing about Superman, for instance, is broken. Just kinda gloss over BvS and go forward with everybody on some solo Superman joints. Henry Cavill is potentially one of the best Superman we've ever had.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

I really hope the rumors of Affleck leaving after JL aren't true, The Batman has so much potential. Could this be why DC seems to be moving forward with the Nightwing stand alone movie as a potential successor to Bruce? Dick isn't as well known, but he's very popular amongst those who do and that might translate well to mainstream audiences. 

Regardless this won't be the end of the DCEU. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, The Flash, Superman, Green Lantern, etc should be able to still hold the universe up. They don't _need_ The Batman for success, even though having him would definitely be great.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*‘Batgirl’: Joss Whedon Will Begin Working On The Film In 2018*




> Geoff Johns revealed that Whedon will focus on the new film in the new year:
> 
>     “But for Batman what I will say is that Batman is more than just Batman and, you know, it’s been way too long since we’ve seen, you know, an expansion of that universe, and Batgirl – we are doing Batgirl with Joss Whedon, it’s going to be super exciting. He’s going to start that next year, and that’s just the start.”


Source

----------


## Rogue Star

Batgirl? YES!

Joss Whedon?  Ugh...

----------


## darkseidpwns

Expected tbh.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Batgirl? YES!
> 
> Joss Whedon?  Ugh...


lol Whedon was mentioned very early at working at Batgirl wasn't he?

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Batgirl? YES!
> 
> Joss Whedon?  Ugh...


Why the "ugh" for Whedon? He's a great storyteller. Granted, he goes a little crazy on the quips sometimes and definitely has tropes that get old fast. But most of his stuff is usually high quality.

----------


## Rogue Star

> lol Whedon was mentioned very early at working at Batgirl wasn't he?


Yeah, and my response is still, "Ugh..."




> Why the "ugh" for Whedon? He's a great storyteller. Granted, he goes a little crazy on the quips sometimes and definitely has tropes that get old fast. But most of his stuff is usually high quality.


I think Whedon is "okay".  The Avengers is almost unwatchable. Age of Ultron is extremely cringeworthy at so many points.  I don't like his work.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

The Avengers was unwatchable? Why? It was really fast paced compared to say, Man of Steel. But in terms of character development, plot, and just making such a revolutionary film concept work the movie is very impressive. 

What didn't you like about it?

----------


## darkseidpwns

I dont like it either but it made good money and earned rave reviews and ushered in the shared universe craze.

----------


## Frontier

I'll just wait to see casting/story news before I make a judgement one way or the other. 

But getting a Batgirl movie at all is still pretty cool  :Embarrassment: ..

----------


## darkseidpwns

I still think its pretty amazing that the Avengers director will direct a Batgirl movie instead of a Black Widow movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The Avengers was unwatchable? Why? It was really fast paced compared to say, Man of Steel. But in terms of character development, plot, and just making such a revolutionary film concept work the movie is very impressive. 
> 
> What didn't you like about it?


Seriously. I prefer the DCEU, particularly the new DCEU emerging after Wonder Woman, and I have some problems with the somewhat frivolous tone of the MCU. But I find the two Avengers movies excellent for the most part. Definitely some of the best work out of Whedon in quite a while. 

I have every confidence that he can do a good job with Batgirl. My only concern is the fact that they seem to want to base the movie on the New 52 era, which may mean missing out on a lot of the fun of the character. We'll see.

----------


## Rogue Star

> The Avengers was unwatchable? Why? It was really fast paced compared to say, Man of Steel. But in terms of character development, plot, and just making such a revolutionary film concept work the movie is very impressive. 
> 
> What didn't you like about it?


It just wasn't good enough in most of what it tried to do. Sure it got the spectacle right at the end but everything leading up to that was uninteresting. The characters didn't grab my interest once I get passed the awe of seeing them together on screen for the first time.  In the rare event that I do watch the Avengers, I usually just skip to the Thor vs Hulk fight.  Sort of the same with Age of Ultron; I just skip to the Hulk vs Hulkbuster fight.  The Winter Soldier does nearly everything better than both Avengers movies.  I don't know what it is about Whedon, he doesn't seem to know how to bring the best out of the characters on screen. I haven't seen any of his other movies.  I never watched the Buffy tv show, maybe save for a few episodes but that was a long time ago so I barely recall anything from them.

----------


## Bukdiah

I liked the first Avengers (from what i remember) but Age of Ultron was so booty. MCU has way too much bathos for me sometimes though.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I'll just wait to see casting/story news before I make a judgement one way or the other. 
> 
> But getting a Batgirl movie at all is still pretty cool ..


Yeah, I never thought she'd get her own movie. Crazy times we are in now that Comic book movies are the new Westerns.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> My fundamental point was this is on WB, not Snyder. Snyder can't help himself, but WB should have stepped in. To your point, they made it even worse by authorizing several of those decisions.


Snyder gets too much hate, and most of it is him going in a direction most of us aren't used to.

It was WB that wanted BvS to happen, rather than MoS2. it was WB that wanted to kill Superman. It was WB that butchered the editing of both BvS and SS.

I agree that Snyder isn't a master of storytelling, but MoS is a good Superman movie, while BvS and SS were issues of WB execs crowding the DC kitchen.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> An older batman at the start of a new cinematic universe was stupid. Hopefully they incorporate Dionysium into the movies


Not if the point was to show off the Bat Family, and have Grayson eventually become Batman.

Bruce Wayne has been done to death, so this was interesting approach to the usual.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The thing is, it's a risk as there's no guarantee that the GA would accept a non-Bruce Wayne Batman.  Especially since those characters have yet to be established in the DCEU themselves yet anyway.  And also you shouldn't be looking to replace you actor before he's even had ONE solo film of his own.
> 
> That's just poor planning/foresight on WB's part.


They probably didn't get to involved with Affleck's personal life. Also the planning isn't too poor considering he knocked the role out of the park.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Damn JL is 4 months away. We definitely getting footage. If we don't get Aquaman footage I want art showing Mera using powers and Atlantis. A movie slate is really needed. If Geoff Johns was the force behind WW tone then let him take over. Alot of people loved WW and rated it one of the best cbm. I loved the tone and it felt perfect.


That tone felt perfect for that story. Not as a blanket tone for the whole DCEU.

A Batman, Suicide Squad, and New Gods movie shouldn't have that tone. Flash, Superman, and Shazam should have a similar tone. It just depends on the story being told.

----------


## Rogue Star

> They probably didn't get to involved with Affleck's personal life. Also the planning isn't too poor considering he knocked the role out of the park.


As Bruce Wayne he was enough, as Batman he was great. I have to think that Snyder deserves more of the credit for us getting a Batman that I liked though. It probably would have gone just as well with anyone else in the role, but we got Ben and I have no reason to complain, especially since he's a fan of the character (a big plus in my opinion).

----------


## Black_Adam

I did expect Affleck to probably leave after the solo film but the possibility he may exit before is very surprising. Not directing is one thing but the fact that Reeves has come in and thrown everything out, especially the script Ben had been working on for a long time and every time he spoke about it he seemed so excited and proud of it, I don't know wouldn't it be just a bit awkward working with the guy who comes in and first thing he does is reject your work and dumpster it? 

Also I do wonder if his recent movies had been better received critically if we would be talking about this. I remember Mark Hughes saying that while BvS was disappointing for Ben he at least got praise as Bruce. But When Live By Night flopped it really hurt him since it was his pet project and both Ben and WB were so confident in the movie the release date was pushed up so it could have a run during awards season. But it was a victim of BvS exhausting production schedule and if playing Batman is going to effect his other work it's pretty reasonable if he wants out.

Ah well I think we will know a lot more in less than 24 hours time, whether or not they addresses it at SDCC I'm curious to see what his body language is like at the WB panel.

But all I really want is to see Affleck's Batman and Leto's Joker in a movie at least one time actually interact with each other, the chase in SS doesn't count. :L

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I think from a marketing stand point it would be wise to find a way to drop Leto and Eisenberg.   It is very doubtful that those two would change their takes on the character.  They are just as polarizing as Snyder is in the DCEU... who I think WB/DC is trying to slowly distance themselves from.  I've always said that Snyder's name (whether justified or not) will hurt critical and popular reception of JL.  The costume designer who  approved Leto's Joker design should also be held accountable.  Costume designers want to make things their own.  I get that... but they also must be held accountable for the choices they made.  Ayer should be as well for the Joker and Harley face tattoos.


You might be surprised. Some comic fans may have hated Joker's look, but he (and obviously Harley) were very, VERY popular among general audiences. Just look at the Halloween & merchandise sales alone. 

On a personal note, I really don't understand why some people still have negative opinions of tattoos in 2017. Personal expression is accepted now, yes? I think the issue is that comic fans (not all, but a good %) just hate change. They want the same thing for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, all day every day. 

SDCC is showing off new figures and statues of Leto as well; he's probably not going anywhere (and I can't be thankful enough, he's my favorite live action portrayal).

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I did expect Affleck to probably leave after the solo film but the possibility he may exit before is very surprising. Not directing is one thing but the fact that Reeves has come in and thrown everything out, especially the script Ben had been working on for a long time and every time he spoke about it he seemed so excited and proud of it, I don't know wouldn't it be just a bit awkward working with the guy who comes in and first thing he does is reject your work and dumpster it? 
> 
> Also I do wonder if his recent movies had been better received critically if we would be talking about this. I remember Mark Hughes saying that while BvS was disappointing for Ben he at least got praise as Bruce. But When Live By Night flopped it really hurt him since it was his pet project and both Ben and WB were so confident in the movie the release date was pushed up so it could have a run during awards season. But it was a victim of BvS exhausting production schedule and if playing Batman is going to effect his other work it's pretty reasonable if he wants out.
> 
> Ah well I think we will know a lot more in less than 24 hours time, whether or not they addresses it at SDCC I'm curious to see what his body language is like at the WB panel.
> 
> *But all I really want is to see Affleck's Batman and Leto's Joker in a movie at least one time actually interact with each other*, the chase in SS doesn't count. :L


Yes! This HAS to happen...we can't finally have a connected universe and not see them tangle. MoS 2 is my most anticipated piece of the DCEU future, but Affleck vs Leto is only a hair beneath it. More like 1 & 1A.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

If Reeves and Batfleck are really still working together on The Batman, I don't think Reeves would be so insensitive to completely toss out the entirety of a fellow filmmaker, and writer's, work. He should know how much that would hurt. If anything, assuming Ben is still going to do it, they're collaborating ideas. People act like Ben and Johns would have no input on a movie they're producing.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

Just cast Ed Burns and move on.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think from a marketing stand point it would be wise to find a way to drop Leto and Eisenberg.   It is very doubtful that those two would change their takes on the character.  They are just as polarizing as Snyder is in the DCEU... who I think WB/DC is trying to slowly distance themselves from.  I've always said that Snyder's name (whether justified or not) will hurt critical and popular reception of JL.  The costume designer who  approved Leto's Joker design should also be held accountable.  Costume designers want to make things their own.  I get that... but they also must be held accountable for the choices they made.  Ayer should be as well for the Joker and Harley face tattoos.


Actually, the SS Harley and Joker were very popular amongst the GA.

Also, Jesse's Lex can evolve as a character, you know. Being in jail, with no immediate power, will force him to rethink how he approaches things.

----------


## JediKage

I will give Leto another chance lets be fair he didn't have much to work with or much screen time....but no Eisenberg has gotta go. 

Max Landis should not be the basis for Lex Luthor potrayals...the Riddler sure....Luthor...Hell No.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Chiming in on Affleck's age (being 35 myself)... it was hard for me to me past superhero prime age, honestly, because Batman always was older for me and now he's not. For me that was tough and it changed the way I look at the character. Boring, I know.
Batman doesn't need to be shirtless or have rubber muscles or have a warehouse fight in every movie. He's THE detective, the strategist (him or WW), the calculator and weapon-smith/masteratarms. At times he's a jerk. For all I care he could be played by Ben Affleck, Hugh Jackman or Clint Eastwood and still have more awesome movies in him. Sixpacks and kicks to the head don't make a great movie. Look at detective classics like Chinatown or BladeRunner. Jackmann was fantastic in LOGAN. A 45 year old Bruce Wayne is the least of our problems.
If they recast, they better go with Dick Grayson Batman or even Batgirl. A NEW Bruce... I won't watch that. Well, I probably will but without payment or supporting the DCEU in any way that matters.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Jackman wasn't 43 when his first film as Wolverine was released and unlike Jackman or Bale Affleck HATES working out. He's that average American dad who loves his pizza and junk food in his regular family outings.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I will give Leto another chance lets be fair he didn't have much to work with or much screen time....but no Eisenberg has gotta go. 
> 
> Max Landis should not be the basis for Lex Luthor potrayals...the Riddler sure....Luthor...Hell No.


But that's how Lex acts in Birthright, All-Star and Red Son...

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I think the whole Affleck stuff is a contract play. Either by him and his agent or Warner Bros. Robert Downey does this every couple years too. I think Warner Bros. is prepared to walk away from him though if they HAVE to. I think the best way to do it is use the Flash in some time travel tragedy that brings Bruce back from the past so he's younger in the current continuum (or something like that).

----------


## darkseidpwns

> But that's how Lex acts in Birthright, All-Star and Red Son...


Lex acts, Jesse overacts.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Jackman wasn't 43 when his first film as Wolverine was released.


So? The point of this Batman was to an older, jaded veteran. It was very much a play on the TDK Trilogy's line of living long enough to become the villain. Applying that to Bruce, but having him come back over adds something new to his character. A Red Hood movie with Batfleck would have a Batman that has seen the world through Jason's eyes, and thus makes that conversation be something more than an indestructible force meeting an immovable object. Having crossed the line, Bruce can not only relate, but see much more redemption in Jason.

This older Batman also allows for his legacy to be passed. Then Grayson Batman would be something completely new for audiences. 

Prime Bruce has been done to death. This is something new.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Lex acts, Jesse overacts.


Have you not read those books? All-Star Lex draws a raised eyebrow on his face with a marker...

Red Son Lex unleashed multiple Doomsdays nonchalantly, on a whim.

Jesse's Lex is actually quite tame in comparison.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So? The point of this Batman was to an older, jaded veteran. It was very much a play on the TDK Trilogy's line of living long enough to become the villain. Applying that to Bruce, but having him come back over adds something new to his character. A Red Hood movie with Batfleck would have a Batman that has seen the world through Jason's eyes, and thus makes that conversation be something more than an indestructible force meeting an immovable object. Having crossed the line, Bruce can not only relate, but see much more redemption in Jason.
> 
> This older Batman also allows for his legacy to be passed. Then Grayson Batman would be something completely new for audiences. 
> 
> Prime Bruce has been done to death. This is something new.


So it means dont compare Jackman and Affleck.

Yeah lets pretend as if WB wanted someone else as Batman before they released a series of films with Bruce Wayne himself.

This something new might not even get a solo films.

----------


## The True Detective

> Not if the point was to show off the Bat Family, and have Grayson eventually become Batman.
> 
> Bruce Wayne has been done to death, so this was interesting approach to the usual.


Saying Bruce Wayne has been done to death is like saying Clark Kent, Peter Parker and James Bond have been done to death. They're hugely iconic characters, people love them, so of course they're going to be "done to death". If you make a Batman movie naturally Bruce is going to be in it as Batman.

If Affleck does leave I hope they simply recast the role because I personally have never seen the appeal of replacing iconic heroes, I don't like the idea of Bucky replacing Cap in the MCU or Miles coming and replacing Peter either. And why does Dick have to be Batman anyway? It's not like Bruce in the role is preventing him from being his own hero. What's wrong with Bruce doing his own thing as Batman and Dick doing his own thing as Nightwing? This way we get both of them in the DCEU instead of just one. Some fans act as if Dick can only be relevant if he's Batman as if he can't be an A-lister as Nightwing, a persona he created and not a hand me down one like Batman.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> So it means dont compare Jackman and Affleck.
> 
> Yeah lets pretend as if WB wanted someone else as Batman before they released a series of films with Bruce Wayne himself.
> 
> This something new might not even get a solo films.


All I get from your trolling and negativity is: Don't try something new. Don't risk anything! Use the formula! Again! Again! Again! Gimme splosions! I hate DCEU!

----------


## Black_Adam

> You might be surprised. Some comic fans may have hated Joker's look, but he (and obviously Harley) were very, VERY popular among general audiences. Just look at the Halloween & merchandise sales alone.


Funny you say that, here in Australia just recently a couple were accidentally shot by Police at a swingers party dressed as Joker and Harley in the middle of a compromising act haha.

Anyway in more positive news it looks like Sandberg's Shazam is a lock to start shooting next year! Lots of banter and teases on his Twitter page with fans, he said he can't revel anything (yet) so possible news tomorrow at the WB Panel? Also he's replied to and liked a few posts asking for a Shazam/Superman team up.

I think with Black Adam not appearing the next logical step is to include a high profile DC character in the Shazam movie and Supes of course fits the bill perfectly. Would love to see a young Billy who has grown up idolizing Superman in the DCEU and when he gets his powers has Superman to help mentor him.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> If Affleck does leave I hope they simply recast the role because I personally have never seen the appeal of replacing iconic heroes, I don't like the idea of Bucky replacing Cap in the MCU or Miles coming and replacing Peter either. And why does Dick have to be Batman anyway? It's not like Bruce in the role is preventing him from being his own hero. What's wrong with Bruce doing his own thing as Batman and Dick doing his own thing as Nightwing? This way we get both of them in the DCEU instead of just one. Some fans act as if Dick can only be relevant if he's Batman as if he can't be an A-lister as Nightwing, a persona he created and not a hand me down one like Batman.


I like the replacements. It adds a sense of (comicbook) realism. Heroes fight, struggle and die. The cowls move on. Plus if the DCEU/MCU makes people read Morrison and Brubaker... that's amazing!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So it means dont compare Jackman and Affleck.
> 
> Yeah lets pretend as if WB wanted someone else as Batman before they released a series of films with Bruce Wayne himself.
> 
> This something new might not even get a solo films.


I wasn't comparing them, I was just saying that Ben being 45 when cast actually added to the character.

Also, what I said can still happen. What if the reshoots are adding the death of Bruce (assuming that Ben really isn't coming back, mind you)? That would make sense, in highlighting that he's merely human at the end of the day. Dick, being the new Batman, may want to "keep his feet on the ground" per say, and that's where grounded mystery noir movie comes into play. Eventually he gets pulled into the JL conflicts in JL2, tho, of course.

Hell, Dick being the new Batman would make Deathstroke being his rival villain even cooler.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Saying Bruce Wayne has been done to death is like saying Clark Kent, Peter Parker and James Bond have been done to death. They're hugely iconic characters, people love them, so of course they're going to be "done to death". If you make a Batman movie naturally Bruce is going to be in it as Batman.
> 
> If Affleck does leave I hope they simply recast the role because I personally have never seen the appeal of replacing iconic heroes, I don't like the idea of Bucky replacing Cap in the MCU or Miles coming and replacing Peter either. And why does Dick have to be Batman anyway? It's not like Bruce in the role is preventing him from being his own hero. What's wrong with Bruce doing his own thing as Batman and Dick doing his own thing as Nightwing? This way we get both of them in the DCEU instead of just one. Some fans act as if Dick can only be relevant if he's Batman as if he can't be an A-lister as Nightwing, a persona he created and not a hand me down one like Batman.


I'm simply saying it's a new approach to Batman for the GA. Funny enough, those three characters have all been recently reinvented for the GA.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Interesting. An article that actually is not taking the anti DCEU approach. 

*JUSTICE LEAGUE RESHOOT REPORTS ARE FALSE*

Going to enjoy shoving that in the face of a few people.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> All I get from your trolling and negativity is: Don't try something new. Don't risk anything! Use the formula! Again! Again! Again! Gimme splosions! I hate DCEU!


All I get from this post is idiocy and stupidity.

"Gimme Splosions"

That's what Zack Snyder is known for and guess what YOU'RE the Snyder lover.

"Dont risk anything, use the formula, dont try something new"
 I already said I'm welcome to Dick Grayson as Batman, try to read for once.

"I hate DCEU"
Or maybe I want to love it?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Funny you say that, here in Australia just recently a couple were accidentally shot by Police at a swingers party dressed as Joker and Harley in the middle of a compromising act haha.
> 
> Anyway in more positive news it looks like Sandberg's Shazam is a lock to start shooting next year! Lots of banter and teases on his Twitter page with fans, he said he can't revel anything (yet) so possible news tomorrow at the WB Panel? Also he's replied to and liked a few posts asking for a Shazam/Superman team up.
> 
> I think with Black Adam not appearing the next logical step is to include a high profile DC character in the Shazam movie and Supes of course fits the bill perfectly. Would love to see a young Billy who has grown up idolizing Superman in the DCEU and when he gets his powers has Superman to help mentor him.


It also makes sense to build up, and develop, Black Adam's character in his own movie, before putting him in a Shazam. That way he gets developed, and Billy doesn't TDK'd in his own movie.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I wasn't comparing them, I was just saying that Ben being 45 when cast actually added to the character.
> 
> Also, what I said can still happen. What if the reshoots are adding the death of Bruce (assuming that Ben really isn't coming back, mind you)? That would make sense, in highlighting that he's merely human at the end of the day. Dick, being the new Batman, may want to "keep his feet on the ground" per say, and that's where grounded mystery noir movie comes into play. Eventually he gets pulled into the JL conflicts in JL2, tho, of course.
> 
> Hell, Dick being the new Batman would make Deathstroke being his rival villain even cooler.


You did compare them, Jackman just bowed out from the franchise at this age while Affleck just entered it. Pretty sure I never mentioned Hugh Jackman before you did.

Pretty much what I said about DCEU fans 3 pages ago.
First they deny the news, then they bash whoever does believe the news and then they eventually twist the news in to something "that makes sense" and was part of some master plan all along.
You said making Bruce old added something new, now you're saying Dick vs Deathstroke is the way to go, so what happened to Mr New?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Interesting. An article that actually is not taking the anti DCEU approach. 
> 
> *JUSTICE LEAGUE RESHOOT REPORTS ARE FALSE*
> 
> Going to enjoy shoving that in the face of a few people.


Good to hear. I liked Rogue One, but it's obvious that movie was pacified, and the 2nd act just meandered for almost no reason. The Vader scene seemed to me how the movie should've felt almost the whole time; tense, horrifying, and fast paced.

I don't want to see JL switching between two different paces and tones.

----------


## The True Detective

> I'm simply saying it's a new approach to Batman for the GA. Funny enough, those three characters have all been recently reinvented for the GA.


Yes reinvented with Peter Parker, James Bond and Clark Kent in their traditional roles, I don't see why you just can't... make Nightwing and Batman movies as opposed to killing off your most popular character and replacing him. In a perfect world wouldn't the ideal be Batman AND Nightwing movies? I know that's what I want, instead of just one without the other.

If people prefer the other way that's cool I just personally could never get behind the concept of replacing iconic characters.

----------


## Black_Adam

> It also makes sense to build up, and develop, Black Adam's character in his own movie, before putting him in a Shazam. That way he gets developed, and Billy doesn't TDK'd in his own movie.


Very true, it gives whoever they cast as Billy/Shazam the chance to make the role their own.

As much as I wanted to see it, I do agree if Rock was in the movie as Adam he would probably overshadow whoever he was cast against. So yeah do Shazam then do Black Adam, and build it up so when they do meet it's a big event in the DCEU, unstoppable force meets an immovable object and all that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> You did compare them, Jackman just bowed out from the franchise at this age while Affleck just entered it. Pretty sure I never mentioned Hugh Jackman before you did.
> 
> Pretty much what I said about DCEU fans 3 pages ago.
> First they deny the news, then they bash whoever does believe the news and then they eventually twist the news in to something "that makes sense" and was part of some master plan all along.
> You said making Bruce old added something new, now you're saying Dick vs Deathstroke is the way to go, so what happened to Mr New?


No, you literally did compare them first:




> Jackman wasn't 43 when his first film as Wolverine was released and unlike Jackman or Bale Affleck HATES working out. He's that average American dad who loves his pizza and junk food in his regular family outings.


I never mentioned Jackman's name until this post. I was purely talking about how this version of Batman allows for new nuances we've yet to see in any non-comic Batman media.

Ben Affleck is also a Batman superfan, and his children love him as the Batman, so if he can play the role, I'm sure he'd keep going. Also, as he's an old Batman, he's just expected to be big, not ripped to shreds like Jackman. Him getting out of shape would also play into him being an old Batman.

----------


## Carabas

> The fun in damian is that he is a broody edgelord, but he's also a bratty teenager who batman (dick) just wants to mellow out.


Any version of Damian that takes over as Batman will not be a teenager, bratty or otherwise.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> No, you literally did compare them first:
> 
> 
> 
> I never mentioned Jackman's name until this post. I was purely talking about how this version of Batman allows for new nuances we've yet to see in any non-comic Batman media.
> 
> Ben Affleck is also a Batman superfan, and his children love him as the Batman, so if he can play the role, I'm sure he'd keep going. Also, as he's an old Batman, he's just expected to be big, not ripped to shreds like Jackman. Him getting out of shape would also play into him being an old Batman.


Sorry, Batnbreakfast brought up Jackman.

And none of this means anything if he packs his bags. His super fandom, story telling avenues etc go down the gutter.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

You two need to stop.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yes reinvented with Peter Parker, James Bond and Clark Kent in their traditional roles, I don't see why you just can't... make Nightwing and Batman movies as opposed to killing off your most popular character and replacing him. In a perfect world wouldn't the ideal be Batman AND Nightwing movies? I know that's what I want, instead of just one without the other.
> 
> If people prefer the other way that's cool I just personally could never get behind the concept of replacing iconic characters.


Well, as long as it's done right, I don't mind replacing them. Peter is the only one with a legacy character, out of the 3 you mentioned. Him dying to the Sinister 6, while finding a way to creatively beat them all, would be a nice way to end Peter's run, and inspire Miles to take his place. 

Then Miles himself (at least for his first run) is a-whole-nother roller coaster, with him accidentally killing his uncle, inadvertently killing his mom, his dad being a member of SHIELD, plus hating super-people, and Miles not really wanting to be/enjoying being hero, but feeling obligated to, thus his drive is only so much.

Legacy character bring a lot of new dynamics.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Its a figure of expression,point is that its a long term commiment.


You used it incorrectly.




> BVS didn't even make enough to finance its own sequel haha.


You mean Justice League? Which is happening...When was BvS ever supposed to have a direct sequel?





> Whatever ,you DCEU lovers will reject this news and when it comes to pass you'll claim it was part of the plan all along and then you'll be using Affleck's age and problems to say it totally makes sense or something.
> 
> Its standard operation procedure for you people. Its not even that you DCEU lovers are attacking me for taking a rumour too seriously much as you guys love to claim. Another DCEU lover right here has also accepted this rumor or seriously considered it atleast but not one word from you guys telling him to cool it down.


And you, who obsess over hating every single thing about the DCEU, will always jump on any rumor and actively cheer for its demise. The rest of us are skeptical for good reason given the amount of dumb rumors that never came to pass. May happen, may not. But we're not saying the dumb nonsensical things you are.

----------


## The True Detective

> Well, as long as it's done right, I don't mind replacing them. Peter is the only one with a legacy character, out of the 3 you mentioned. Him dying to the Sinister 6, while finding a way to creatively beat them all, would be a nice way to end Peter's run, and inspire Miles to take his place. 
> 
> Then Miles himself (at least for his first run) is a-whole-nother roller coaster, with him accidentally killing his uncle, inadvertently killing his mom, his dad being a member of SHIELD, plus hating super-people, and Miles not really wanting to be/enjoying being hero, but feeling obligated to, thus his drive is only so much.
> 
> Legacy character bring a lot of new dynamics.


You bring up good points, I guess I'm a little too emotionally invested in certain characters in their roles to fully support the idea. I'm not for it happening but depending on how it's done it could work to where I'm cool with it tho.

----------


## Carabas

> Good to hear. I liked Rogue One, but it's obvious that movie was pacified, and the 2nd act just meandered for almost no reason. The Vader scene seemed to me how the movie should've felt almost the whole time; tense, horrifying, and fast paced.


Pacified?
They had actual survivors before the reshoots. And the Vader horror scene wasn't even part of the movie before the reshoots.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick should not become Batman. I hate it if people remember him more as Batman than Nightwing. Dick has more stories as Nightwing compared to his time as Batman.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I have to say I think all these talks about a "soft reboot" don't sound workable to me in a movie. The general audience has already invested time into these actors, whether they liked them or not. They can't suspend their disbelief to the point that certain key members of the cast completely change. No Flashpoint type event can justify Lex suddenly looking different or Bruce being a different person. It just wouldn't work. Multiverses are always shown as the same essential people in different realities. Bruce Wayne suddenly looking different while everyone else looks the same just wouldn't work. The audience wouldn't buy it and it would be so obviously sloppy and shitty. If Ben leaves, Bruce leaves the story too. I don't want that to happen but I'd rather Dick take up the mantle than some other actor just popping in acting like it wasn't Ben Affleck who helped carry BvS and influenced the dawn of the DCEU.

----------


## Carabas

> Dick should not become Batman. I hate it if people remember him more as Batman than Nightwing. Dick has more stories as Nightwing compared to his time as Batman.


But he was a far more enjoyable Batman than Bruce has been since The Dark Knight Returns got published.

----------


## yohyoi

> I have to say I think all these talks about a "soft reboot" don't sound workable to me in a movie. The general audience has already invested time into these actors, whether they liked them or not. They can't suspend their disbelief to the point that certain key members of the cast completely change. No Flashpoint type event can justify Lex suddenly looking different or Bruce being a different person. It just wouldn't work. Multiverses are always shown as the same essential people in different realities. Bruce Wayne suddenly looking different while everyone else looks the same just wouldn't work. The audience wouldn't buy it and it would be so obviously sloppy and shitty. If Ben leaves, Bruce leaves the story too. I don't want that to happen but I'd rather Dick take up the mantle than some other actor just popping in acting like it wasn't Ben Affleck who helped carry BvS and influenced the dawn of the DCEU.


Damn it. Can Terry just exist? The last thing I want is Dick to become Batman when his Nightwing movie is just starting.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Damn it. Can Terry just exist? The last thing I want is Dick to become Batman when his Nightwing movie is just starting.


I would really want Dick to just be Nightwing. That's my ideal scenario. But Dick as Batman is preferable to me than making some convoluted story to justify a change of actors that creates an unbelievable inconsistency within the universe that breaks its credibility.

----------


## rev516

I honestly think WB can't be that stupid to want Ben to go. They simply can't be, right?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> You used it incorrectly.


Doesn't change what I said




> You mean Justice League? Which is happening...When was BvS ever supposed to have a direct sequel?


No thanks to BVS





> And you, who obsess over hating every single thing about the DCEU, will always jump on any rumor and actively cheer for its demise. The rest of us are skeptical for good reason given the amount of dumb rumors that never came to pass. May happen, may not. But we're not saying the dumb nonsensical things you are.


Dumb non nonsensical things like Affleck no longer writing and directing? I called it and I was right and here's the thing I'm not a fortune teller, this was common info everywhere on the net. Just because it didn't reach this deliberately constructed echo chamber doesn't make it nonsensical.

Actively cheer? I'm expressing my outrage at Batman being pushed aside. No you guys just want everyone to suck up to you all, this is common chatter throughout the internet as we speak, its only on THIS board that it has become a heated debate because DCEU lovers cant handle another perspective. I only cheer for getting rid of Snyder.

----------


## yohyoi

> But he was a far more enjoyable Batman than Bruce has been since The Dark Knight Returns got published.


Terry could fill the Batman who does jokes role. Dick has a long history as Nightwing. It's the first time in decades WB is investing on Nightwing. It could be as iconic as Robin if given a chance.

----------


## Carabas

> I honestly think WB can't be that stupid to want Ben to go. They simply can't be, right?


They put Zack Snyder in charge of their universe, and kept him after Man of Steel, didn't they?

----------


## Carabas

> Terry could fill the Batman who does jokes role. Dick has a long history as Nightwing. It's the first time in decades WB is investing on Nightwing. It could be as iconic as Robin if given a chance.


I don't want a Batman who does jokes. I want a Batman who isn't a psychopath. 

And anyway, Terry doesn't work for me at all without the Terry/Old Bruce dynamic.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They put Zack Snyder in charge of their universe, and kept him after Man of Steel, didn't they?


Zack Snyder gets movies made on time no matter what the production schedule demands. And despite all the Rotten Tomatoes drama, all of those movies made a ton of money. Spider-Man: Homecoming that features both of Marvel's top characters currently, Iron Man and Spider-Man, may not pass Batman v Superman at the box office. It may not even pass Suicide Squad in North America.

----------


## The True Detective

> Zack Snyder gets movies made on time no matter what the production schedule demands. And despite all the Rotten Tomatoes drama, all of those movies made a ton of money. Spider-Man: Homecoming that features both of Marvel's top characters currently, Iron Man and Spider-Man, may not pass Batman v Superman at the box office. It may not even pass Suicide Squad in North America.


The performance of Homecoming at the box office is legit shocking to me. The fact that it has Marvel's top 2 heroes, outstanding reviews and still might not pass BvS goes to show that BvS and the DCEU as a whole did/is doing a lot better than people give it credit.

----------


## yohyoi

> Zack Snyder gets movies made on time no matter what the production schedule demands. And despite all the Rotten Tomatoes drama, all of those movies made a ton of money. Spider-Man: Homecoming that features both of Marvel's top characters currently, Iron Man and Spider-Man, may not pass Batman v Superman at the box office. It may not even pass Suicide Squad in North America.


I think it's because there are fewer DC movies per year compared to Marvel's. People tend to watch a DC movie for the sake of watching one no matter if it's rotten.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Doesn't change what I said


What you said didn't make sense.




> No thanks to BVS


Yes thanks to BvS. It made enough money to justify continuing the universe with Henry, Gal, and Ben.




> Dumb non nonsensical things like Affleck no longer writing and directing? I called it and I was right and here's the thing I'm not a fortune teller, this was common info everywhere on the net. Just because it didn't reach this deliberately constructed echo chamber doesn't make it nonsensical.


You can't say you called something that hasn't been confirmed. 




> Actively cheer? I'm expressing my outrage at Batman being pushed aside. No you guys just want everyone to suck up to you all, this is common chatter throughout the internet as we speak, its only on THIS board that it has become a heated debate because DCEU lovers cant handle another perspective. I only cheer for getting rid of Snyder.


Don't act like you don't troll and shit on the DCEU every chance you get. You're not some reasonable poster offering a different perspective, your posts are emotionally charged rants that have more to do with your willing pessimism than any proven fact about the direction of the franchise.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> They put Zack Snyder in charge of their universe, and kept him after Man of Steel, didn't they?


But that movie was good....

I seriously don't get how that movie is considered "not good", or not at the very least okay, by anyone.

----------


## Johnny

From Momoa's Instagram:

----------


## Lightning Rider

GL! Sweet image.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> GL! Sweet image.


Disappointed that the GL is Hal. I think Jon Stewart, or Jessica Cruz, is the way to go. 

Save Hal for the GL space operas.

----------


## Carabas

> The performance of Homecoming at the box office is legit shocking to me. The fact that it has Marvel's top 2 heroes, outstanding reviews and still might not pass BvS goes to show that BvS and the DCEU as a whole did/is doing a lot better than people give it credit.


Maybe it's a sign that mainstream audiences do not like reboots?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> What you said didn't make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes thanks to BvS. It made enough money to justify continuing the universe with Henry, Gal, and Ben.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't say you called something that hasn't been confirmed. 
> ...


I said that Affleck was unlikely to ever commit long term and WB should have had the sense to realize it.

Explains why they brought in Johns and Berg,explains why Whedon has control of JL. DCEU was never going under with 2 movies but they made changes post BVS and there will have to be further changes.

I called him no longer directing days before he stepped down.

None of my posts are emotionally charged, argumentative doesnt equal emotional. What you call pessimism I call realism and it beats sucking upism.
I think Affleck has a real chance of walking and so do a fair few DCEU lovers here so you cannot deride me for taking  "rumours too seriously" . I dont share their belief that it was part of some master plan all along. Even Batman News reported it and those guys dont report any anti DCEU news much less rumours.

----------


## Johnny

> Disappointed that the GL is Hal. I think Jon Stewart, or Jessica Cruz, is the way to go. 
> 
> Save Hal for the GL space operas.


Well, this is taken from the DCEU intro, which judging by the costumes is based on the Rebirth initiative and not the actual films, so it could just be there as a way to acknowledge GL's existence, not that he would actually show up in the JL movie or that it would be Hal specifically.

----------


## The True Detective

> Maybe it's a sign that mainstream audiences do not like reboots?


Nah, from what I've heard Homecoming comes off as generic to a lot of people and is too small in scope. Sure being the 3rd iteration of the character in 15 years doesn't help but I'm not sure it's a sign people don't like reboots.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Zack Snyder gets movies made on time no matter what the production schedule demands. And despite all the Rotten Tomatoes drama, all of those movies made a ton of money. Spider-Man: Homecoming that features both of Marvel's top characters currently, Iron Man and Spider-Man, may not pass Batman v Superman at the box office. It may not even pass Suicide Squad in North America.


Homecoming's box office is kind of a fluke more than anything. The reason it's doing poorly is because of excessive competition this time of month & the fact it isn't released internationally yet.

----------


## JediKage

> Disappointed that the GL is Hal. I think Jon Stewart, or Jessica Cruz, is the way to go. 
> 
> Save Hal for the GL space operas.


Id be disappointed but Geoff Johns is steering the ship so...so instead of getting a real Black Hero...will make do with the Token Trash Can.

I only want a Cyborg Movie to see how badly it would lose to Black Panther. 

Cause Cyborg as currently constructed and designed has zero chance.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Id be disappointed but Geoff Johns is steering the ship so...so instead of getting a real Black Hero...will make do with the Token Trash Can.
> 
> I only want a Cyborg Movie to see how badly it would lose to Black Panther. 
> 
> Cause Cyborg as currently constructed and designed has zero chance.


I don't think WB/DC should try to have Cyborg compete with BP. It makes no sense, character wise.

They need to get Alex Garland to direct a Cyborg movie. Go small budget, and character driven, rather than spectacle. That's how they'll make money with this character...maybe even some awards.

----------


## JediKage

Yes but do you see how he looks...the character is full CGI...don't see how you keep the budget in check when the character has that much CGI....they should have Deus Ex'd Cyborg. 

His design is crap...Flash is not much better.

Character was setup to fail if you ask me...

I mean really they would have been better stuffing Black Lightning on this.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yes but do you see how he looks...the character is full CGI...don't see how you keep the budget in check when the character has that much CGI....they should have Deus Ex'd Cyborg. 
> 
> His design is crap...Flash is not much better.
> 
> Character was setup to fail if you ask me...
> 
> I mean really they would have been better stuffing Black Lightning on this.


You've seen Alex Garland's Ex Machina, right? He can work good CGI with a small budget.

Cyborg can always upgrade himself, or change his design. I like Flash's homemade suit, but that's subjective.

I also don't see Cyborg as a "token trash can". If he was replaced with John Stewart, would he just be the "token glow stick"? We've yet to get much of him, and he'll be fleshed out throughout the DCEU.

----------


## Carabas

> Nah, from what I've heard Homecoming comes off as generic to a lot of people and is too small in scope. Sure being the 3rd iteration of the character in 15 years doesn't help but I'm not sure it's a sign people don't like reboots.


Ant-Man was well-received. I don't think the scope matters that much.

----------


## JediKage

> You've seen Alex Garland's Ex Machina, right? He can work good CGI with a small budget.
> 
> Cyborg can always upgrade himself, or change his design. I like Flash's homemade suit, but that's subjective.
> 
> I also don't see Cyborg as a "token trash can". If he was replaced with John Stewart, would he just be the "token glow stick"? We've yet to get much of him, and he'll be fleshed out throughout the DCEU.


Its more all the other characters get to look pretty and fully human...meanwhile Cyborg looks more Machine then Human...the only Human part is a small part of his face which is just there to tell you he is Black.

Seeing as John Stewart would looks fully human then not really the same...plus you know Cyborg being most associated with the Teen Titans.

----------


## manofsteel1979

To be fair to Spider-Man homecoming, the budget is fairly small  at $175 million so it really doesn't need to break a billion to make a solid profit. It's nearly at $500 million in it's third week coming so it isn't doing badly,also it has yet to open everywhere yet. Batman v Superman had anywhere from a $250-$300 million budget and it probably should have made more than $870 million. It underperformed but it wasn't the " LOL omg it bombed horribly Man of Murder DCEU suxs LOL"  it was still a box office success, just not as big as it should have been. 

Spiderman Homecoming is doing OK. You can't really compare it to BvS Because the scrutiny and the stakes aren't as large. The only thing they have in common is that at the end of the day S-M: H may just slightly underperform, as BvS did. Other than that it's apples and oranges.

Of course the other difference you likely won't see trolls coming out of the woodwork using Spidey's box office to automatically proclaim any future Marvel film in production " failures" before one minute of film is shot like many did with WW after BvS.

----------


## JediKage

I am sorry there is no excuse for the 1st Live Action movie with Batman and Superman to fail to reach a Billion.

Anyway what do we expect to happen at the panel today?

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Disappointed that the GL is Hal. I think Jon Stewart, or Jessica Cruz, is the way to go. 
> 
> Save Hal for the GL space operas.


I couldn't be more disappointed about this as well.




> Well, this is taken from the DCEU intro, which judging by the costumes is based on the Rebirth initiative and not the actual films, so it could just be there as a way to acknowledge GL's existence, not that he would actually show up in the JL movie or that it would be Hal specifically.


Johnny, come on man. You're still holding out that last bit of optimism in you? LOL. Hal Jordan is the main guy here. Every character is erased on that poster, if they weren't then everything would seem fine. DCEU should've put both Green Lanterns and not use this pecking order crap. You have all of this John Stewart support from actors, articles, popular websites, even Kevin Smith, and all sorts of media, but John still doesn't deserve to be treated as equal alongside Hal Jordan in WB/DC's eyes.

----------


## JediKage

By Orders Of Geoff Johns, You Will Take Your Hal Jordan And You Will Like It.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> By Orders Of Geoff Johns, You Will Take Your Hal Jordan And You Will Like It.


It wouldn't surprise me if WB and Geoff Johns got into a debate about this. As someone said a year ago in the John Stewart thread, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps comic probably had something to do with this effect.

----------


## liwanag

> From Momoa's Instagram:


GL with JL. Cool!

----------


## Doctor Know

> To be fair to Spider-Man homecoming, the budget is fairly small  at $175 million so it really doesn't need to break a billion to make a solid profit. It's nearly at $500 million in it's third week coming so it isn't doing badly,also it has yet to open everywhere yet. Batman v Superman had anywhere from a $250-$300 million budget and it probably should have made more than $870 million. It underperformed but it wasn't the " LOL omg it bombed horribly Man of Murder DCEU suxs LOL"  it was still a box office success, just not as big as it should have been. 
> 
> Spiderman Homecoming is doing OK. You can't really compare it to BvS Because the scrutiny and the stakes aren't as large. The only thing they have in common is that at the end of the day S-M: H may just slightly underperform, as BvS did. Other than that it's apples and oranges.
> 
> Of course the other difference you likely won't see trolls coming out of the woodwork using Spidey's box office to automatically proclaim any future Marvel film in production " failures" before one minute of film is shot like many did with WW after BvS.


Homecoming is doing pretty badly atm. It's trailing the other comic book movies released this year internationally, and trailing TASM 1 by a lot domestically and internationally. Homecoming hasn't been released in China yet, but both Deadpool and Suicide Squad never opened in China and did gangbusters regardless.

Spider-Man fatigue is real.


What BvS needed was a higher gross coming from China. That would've pushed it over the edge. Last year, CACW did $190 million, X-Men Apoc did $120 million, and Warcraft did $214 million. This year Fate of the Furious did $392 million, Transformers 4 did $320 million in 2014 and Jurassic World did $228 million in 2015. BvS's Chinese takeaway was only $90 million. Looking at WW's Chinese gross, it will also do $90 million.
Foreign box office has a lot of room for improvement for the DC films.

----------


## JediKage

It just came out of course its behind the rest internationally so far.

I agree with Fatigue on the bright side Transformers is sliding

----------


## darkseidpwns

I dont see HC making more than the first TASM,Sony must be feeling pretty stupid right now.

----------


## JediKage

Given Sony's record over the past decade or so I assume that is common feeling over at Sony probably subconscious like breathing for them by now.

----------


## Troian

TBH Sony shouldn't have rebooted in 2012. Should have waited till 2017 (maybe asked the MCU) to help them) and capitalize on the decade that there has been no Spiderman movie. But the fatigue is real. 

Also as for people talking about superhero movie fatigue? They'll make bank as long as they use different heroes.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.


That sounds like a very stereotypical report

I'm not even that excited for Justice League (hopefully a new trailer would change my mind) but come on

----------


## Doctor Know

> Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.


Didn't they also report that Wonder Woman was a mess, weeks before it's release? 

I get that anyone on the internet can say anything but come on now.





> That sounds like a very stereotypical report
> 
> I'm not even that excited for Justice League (hopefully a new trailer would change my mind) but come on


I believe the new trailer is supposed to be showcased today at SDCC. We'll likely see it hours later.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.


Again...A year ago Wonder Woman was said to be a dumpster fire. A year later its the critical and box office darling of 2017. 

Not saying there isn't a chance JL will be a mess. However, until any of us see it and until critics weigh in it's wise to take any rumor good or bad,no matter who is reporting it, as a rumor. It's not a fact at this point​. Let's all take anything that isn't officially addressed or announced with a grain of salt.

----------


## Robotman

I really don't think there is "Spider-Man fatigue". The character's merchandise is still the number 1 selling superhero in the world. He even crushes Batman. Homecoming just ran into heavy competition. It only had one week to itself before Planet of the Apes hit theaters. Not to mention Despicable Me. Summer movies are cannibilizing themselves.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.


Now this stuff should be taken with a grain of salt.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Disappointed that the GL is Hal. I think Jon Stewart, or Jessica Cruz, is the way to go. 
> 
> Save Hal for the GL space operas.


I like Hal but am more excited about him being the gateway to John.

----------


## Frontier

> From Momoa's Instagram:


This is probably the brightest we've seen of the cast shots...be nice if we could get this with the expanded picture.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I really don't think there is "Spider-Man fatigue". The character's merchandise is still the number 1 selling superhero in the world. He even crushes Batman. Homecoming just ran into heavy competition. It only had one week to itself before Planet of the Apes hit theaters. Not to mention Despicable Me. Summer movies are cannibilizing themselves.


I think it's Spider-Man movie fatigue. A lot of people were grumbling about yet another Spider-Man reboot. It's the third take on the character in less than 10 years and the sixth Spider-Man movie in 15 years (not counting his appearance in Civil War). 

And all three series have been set or started in high school. That's another aspect I've heard people complain about online. Marvel keeps convincing itself that the character works best when he's high school aged, yet the comics show just the opposite (the failure of the high school set _Spidey_, _Ultimate Spider-Man_ eventually decreasing in sales) and now the casual movie going audiences seem to find the same aspect not fresh and been there, done that as well.

----------


## Triple J



----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Didn't they also report that Wonder Woman was a mess, weeks before it's release?


I personally find it difficult to take them seriously.  Doesn't matter if it is their critical reviews, their news reporting, or just their commentary in general.

----------


## Triple J

> Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.


BoF lost credibility a long time ago, at least in my mind....especially with all the rumor mongering and back tracking the site has engaged in. Besides, he's made it clear that he doesn't want a shared DC universe, but just a Batman universe (he doesn't seem to care about other DC characters).

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> 


Just about to post this. Alright I hate Cyborg here but man this poster got me hype. Alex Ross vibes. Please movie don't dissapoint me, my heart can't take it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> BoF lost credibility a long time ago, at least in my mind....especially with all the rumor mongering and back tracking the site has engaged in. Besides, he's made it clear that he doesn't want a shared DC universe, but just a Batman universe (*he doesn't seem to care about other DC characters*).


He really doesn't. In his review for the Wonder Woman DTV he said he wished Wonder Woman wasn't dealing with the Greek gods and wanted something more "grounded and realistic." He was also the one who circulated that the Amazons would be descendants of Kryptonians. That tells you all you need to know about how much regard he has for Diana and her world, at least.

Though he did give the DCEU film a great review, so there's that.

----------


## Triple J

> Just about to post this. Alright I hate Cyborg here but man this poster got me hype. Alex Ross vibes. Please movie don't dissapoint me, my heart can't take it.


Yeah, Cy does look a little weird in pictures, seems to be fine in the trailer though. Yup, reminded me of Alex Ross style posters  :Smile:

----------


## HandofPrometheus

1500x500.jpg
DC has the best posters

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> 1500x500.jpg
> DC has the best posters


I like this one better.  Gal sort of doesn't look like Gal.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Kinda wish Mera was in the pic.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

DC just went full Alex Ross. I love it! Kinda wish at least Supes was in it.

The logo thing is clever

----------


## Styles

> Batman on Film reporting that Justice League is a mess and Whedon can't save it. It's on their podcast.


Reminds me of these past rumors.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Reminds me of these past rumors.


After being reminded of all these rumors that became true... JL must be a mess without any kind of doubt.

----------


## Johnny

> Johnny, come on man. You're still holding out that last bit of optimism in you? LOL. Hal Jordan is the main guy here. Every character is erased on that poster, if they weren't then everything would seem fine. DCEU should've put both Green Lanterns and not use this pecking order crap. You have all of this John Stewart support from actors, articles, popular websites, even Kevin Smith, and all sorts of media, but John still doesn't deserve to be treated as equal alongside Hal Jordan in WB/DC's eyes.


You gotta have faith man. Like that classic George Michael song. Come on Sodam, repeat after me, I gotta have faith, I gotta have faith, I gotta have faith, faith, faith-ah!

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Reminds me of these past rumors.


See? The DCEU is FAILING! Every single rumor turned out to be true! Warner Bros should do the right thing and just withdraw JL, cancel the whole film slate, and either hire Richard Donner and one of Chris Reeve's son's to make Superman V or just give the DCEU characters to Marvel Studios. #notmysuperman #notmyBatman #snydersuxs #dceusuxs


 :Smile:

----------


## yohyoi

> See? The DCEU is FAILING! Every single rumor turned out to be true! Warner Bros should do the right thing and just withdraw JL, cancel the whole film slate, and either hire Richard Donner and one of Chris Reeve's son's to make Superman V or just give the DCEU characters to Marvel Studios. #notmysuperman #notmyBatman #snydersuxs #dceusuxs


But muh DCEU  :Frown:

----------


## Rogue Star

> I think it's Spider-Man movie fatigue. A lot of people were grumbling about yet another Spider-Man reboot. It's the third take on the character in less than 10 years and the sixth Spider-Man movie in 15 years (not counting his appearance in Civil War). 
> 
> And all three series have been set or started in high school. That's another aspect I've heard people complain about online. Marvel keeps convincing itself that the character works best when he's high school aged, yet the comics show just the opposite (the failure of the high school set _Spidey_, _Ultimate Spider-Man_ eventually decreasing in sales) and now the casual movie going audiences seem to find the same aspect not fresh and been there, done that as well.


I think there's Spider-man movie fatigue as well. I almost didn't go to see the movie. I'm more interested in seeing him in other people's movies right now. They tried to do something new with him this time but stealing Miles Morales' best friend and putting him in Peter's movie was a huge step in the wrong direction, in my opinion.  That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth still. I wonder if Sony might be rethinking the deal that they made with Marvel now. That should worry Marvel, in my opinion... again, because they're putting their hopes on Spiderman for their post Infinity War universe.  It sounds like RDJ will be gone and probably Evans and maybe even Hemsworth. I like Holland as Spiderman but I don't think he's going to carry the MCU after the current Avengers are gone.  Like I said, they should be worried.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> BoF lost credibility a long time ago, at least in my mind....especially with all the rumor mongering and back tracking the site has engaged in. Besides, he's made it clear that he doesn't want a shared DC universe, but just a Batman universe (he doesn't seem to care about other DC characters).


Lololol. Let me guess he has same sources as "extensive reshoots running through August all through the summer
..."
xD. Buwahaha.

----------


## Lightning Rider

The crew has landed for the JL panel.

----------


## Johnny

Love Ray's shirt.

----------


## dianafan1985

> BoF lost credibility a long time ago, at least in my mind....especially with all the rumor mongering and back tracking the site has engaged in. Besides, he's made it clear that he doesn't want a shared DC universe, but just a Batman universe (he doesn't seem to care about other DC characters).


This is very troubling news indeed. How many directors they could have found to continue where Snyder left off and they chose him.  :Confused:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The crew has landed for the JL panel.


Yeah, that totally looks like a man who's about to give up on all of this. Totes! /Sarcasm

Anyway? Less than half an hour til the panel begins, people! Footage could start appearing anytime!  :Smile:

----------


## nightbird

http://www.cbr.com/geoff-johns-start...onder-woman-2/

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Love Ray's shirt.


I don't get the (inside) joke

----------


## Johnny

> I don't get the (inside) joke


"I love Zack Snyder".

----------


## batnbreakfast

> "I love Zack Snyder".


Now, I feel dumb :Frown:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah, that totally looks like a man who's about to give up on all of this. Totes! /Sarcasm


He's screaming on the inside.
( :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Yeah, that totally looks like a man who's about to give up on all of this. Totes! /Sarcasm
> 
> Anyway? Less than half an hour til the panel begins, people! Footage could start appearing anytime!


He's obviously not coming back. He's growing a beard. Batman doesn't have a beard. Right there confirms the truth that he's out, The DCEU is getting rebooted and all is lost. Dog and cats living together! Mass hysteria! 

I mean, it isn't like he can shave the beard or anything . Don't be silly. We all know the DCEU is dead. Leave it buried and bring back Superman's trunks!




 :Wink:

----------


## manofsteel1979

So...CBR just mentioned one of the logos shown for future DCEU​ films is a FLASHPOINT logo and they showed Ben as Batman when showing a logo for THE BATMAN. Interesting. Could we be getting a soft reboot for the DCEU before WW 2?

----------


## richalex

Ben just said he isn't going anywhere.

----------


## Triple J

> So...CBR just mentioned one of the logos shown for future DCEU​ films is a FLASHPOINT logo and they showed Ben as Batman when showing a logo for THE BATMAN. Interesting. Could we be getting a soft reboot for the DCEU before WW 2?


Maybe, new slate is Flashpoint, Batgirl, WW 2, Suicide Squad 2, The Batman, Aquaman, Justice League Dark, Green Lantern Crops

----------


## Lightning Rider

From Facebook:

*The next DC Extended Universe movies are... 
SHAZAM!
SUICIDE SQUAD 2!
JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK!
FLASHPOINT!
WONDER WOMAN 2!
GREEN LANTERN CORPS!
BATGIRL!
THE BATMAN!!
*



> Ben just said he isn't going anywhere.


CALLED IT

CALLED IT 

CALLED IT

----------


## Sodam Yat

So there's going to be no Cyborg movie!!?

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Badou

Looks like the Nightwing movie is getting pushed back then.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> From Facebook:
> 
> *The next DC Extended Universe movies are... 
> SHAZAM!
> SUICIDE SQUAD 2!
> JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK!
> FLASHPOINT!
> WONDER WOMAN 2!
> GREEN LANTERN CORPS!
> ...


So basically the Flash movie has become Flashpoint.

----------


## Soldy

Suck it haters!

https://twitter.com/joblocom/status/888845160951435264

----------


## Clark_Kent

> From Facebook:
> 
> *The next DC Extended Universe movies are... 
> SHAZAM!
> SUICIDE SQUAD 2!
> JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK!
> FLASHPOINT!
> WONDER WOMAN 2!
> GREEN LANTERN CORPS!
> ...



CAAAALLLLLLLLEEEEDDDD IIIITTTTTTTTT

Sorry, I wanted to jump in lol I wonder where certain posters are..

----------


## nightbird



----------


## Sodam Yat

> You gotta have faith man. Like that classic George Michael song. Come on Sodam, repeat after me, I gotta have faith, I gotta have faith, I gotta have faith, faith, faith-ah!


LMAO!

You're right, Johnny. I'm a horrible singer, though LOL.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I'm guessing that Flashpoint is what has become of The Flash solo...

----------


## JediKage

> From Facebook:
> 
> *The next DC Extended Universe movies are... 
> SHAZAM!
> SUICIDE SQUAD 2!
> JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK!
> FLASHPOINT!
> WONDER WOMAN 2!
> GREEN LANTERN CORPS!
> ...


so they are resetting the universe?

and batgirl before batman is just weird.

of course there is no Cyborg movie...only league member with no Solo....should have just put John Stewart on the team. Obvious Token is Obvious Token.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Don't need no Cyborg movie. What would he even do in his movie?

----------


## Caivu

Here's another version of the hero lineup that was shown during the panel today:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFXNm2KUIAATkdq.jpg:large

----------


## nightbird

> Here's another version of the hero lineup that was shown during the panel today:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFXNm2KUIAATkdq.jpg:large


Oh, hello Midnighter. 
Didn't expect to see him there.

----------


## Badou

Flashpoint seems really weird to adapt. I guess this is Johns pushing more of his own stories? There are just a lot better Flash stories to do for the first ever Flash movie is all. 




> and batgirl before batman is just weird.


With the success of Wonder Woman and Whedon attached to Batgirl I don't think it is a surprise they would want to rush it out.

----------


## Sodam Yat

Great lineup. Guy Gardner is in there.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Don't need no Cyborg movie. What would he even do in his movie?


Maybe they should have portrayed him as Vic for a good portion of a movie. Then at the end he has an accident...

----------


## manofsteel1979

> CAAAALLLLLLLLEEEEDDDD IIIITTTTTTTTT
> 
> Sorry, I wanted to jump in lol I wonder where certain posters are..


Buh...Buh...But Batman News confirmed Affleck was out! The DCEU is dead! 

But....No announcement for MOS2! Means Cavill is for sure out as Superman! DCEU is failing! Quick! Let's spread this rumor!  :Smile:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I am a bit bummed to not see a MoS2 announcement, but otherwise I'm happy with that slate. Maybe they're just waiting until after Superman's resurrection in the film?

And based Affleck shutting that shit down. Good for him.

----------


## Beantownbrown

> 


Oh Shit

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Bruhhhhhhhh that TRAILER. HELL YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Don't need no Cyborg movie. What would he even do in his movie?


Why not?

He's one of the founders of the Justice League and does't get his own movie, while others do. This is just very disappointing news.

----------


## JediKage

> Maybe they should have portrayed him as Vic for a good portion of a movie. Then at the end he has an accident...


or I don't know maybe Geoff shouldn't have forced a character that no comic fan thought would work as a solo act just because he is a biased fanboy. 

Beyond that they simply didn't try Cyborg's look in this movie is textbook setup to fail. 

the point is more no Cyborg movie proves he is simply there as a token.


Aquaman look fun, Flash is providing most of the humor it seems, and Cyborg....did he do anything in this trailer? 

Alfred is talking to Superman maybe? But it seems weird he show up in the Batcave....Did Bruce move the body? 
Could be a Green Lantern I suppose.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Visually, this is by far the best looking CBM we've ever seen, I believe.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Who do you suppose the ending of the trailer is teasing?

Superman, a Lantern, Batgirl, Nightwing, Shazam or someone else entirely?

----------


## Frontier

So instead of a Flash solo, we're getting Flashpoint? Really  :Stick Out Tongue: ?



> Here's another version of the hero lineup that was shown during the panel today:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFXNm2KUIAATkdq.jpg:large


I guess that confirms certain characters who people were guessing were on the original poster, with some possible new additions, and gives us a better look at their designs.

Guy, Midnighter, and Indigo-1 seem new.

----------


## JediKage

> Visually, this is by far the best looking CBM we've ever seen, I believe.


Looks more Joss Whedon then Zach Snyder quite frankly.

----------


## vasir12

Trailer was fine but I'm laughing at cyborg being nowhere in it. Also no cyborg movie, of course lol

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Why not?
> 
> He's one of the founders of the Justice League and does't get his own movie, while others do. This is just very disappointing news.


He's got the least amount to work with in terms of a solo property. He was created as part of a team book, and all his important relationships and developments were with that team. I love Vic, but he works best with the Titans. They'd be wise to include him in that in some capacity.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> or I don't know maybe Geoff shouldn't have forced a character that no comic fan thought would work as a solo act just because he is a biased fanboy. 
> 
> Beyond that they simply didn't try Cyborg's look in this movie is textbook setup to fail. 
> 
> the point is more no Cyborg movie proves he is simply there as a token.
> 
> 
> Aquaman look fun, Flash is providing most of the humor it seems, and Cyborg....did he do anything in this trailer? 
> 
> ...


For me DC doesn't offer interesting black heroes, Marvel does. Black Manta is awesome, though

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> or I don't know maybe Geoff shouldn't have forced a character that no comic fan thought would work as a solo act just because he is a biased fanboy. 
> 
> Beyond that they simply didn't try Cyborg's look in this movie is textbook setup to fail. 
> 
> the point is more no Cyborg movie proves he is simply there as a token.


Dude, Black Adam isn't on that list, and we know it's coming, so hold your horses.

Also, while Cyborg can't maintain a constant book series, he can maintain a movie or two. We just need to see more of him, to get the GA behind him. That's where JL and Flashpoint come in.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Looks more Joss Whedon then Zach Snyder quite frankly.


Not at all. Neither Avengers movie looked like this. The movie just has more light is all.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Who do you suppose the ending of the trailer is teasing?
> 
> Superman, a Lantern, Batgirl, Nightwing, Shazam or someone else entirely?


It might be Deathstroke.

----------


## Styles

> 





YOOOOOOO!!!!

----------


## darkseidpwns

> so they are resetting the universe?
> 
> and batgirl before batman is just weird.
> 
> of course there is no Cyborg movie...only league member with no Solo....should have just put John Stewart on the team. Obvious Token is Obvious Token.


I dont think those are in order
Shazam starts production first
Then SS or atleast they're hoping
Then Batgirl
After that Batman and WW because they'll have finished scripts by then.
GL,JL Dark and Flashpoint will probably come out further.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

It's totally Superman. They are teasing that for all it's worth, and I kind of love them a little for it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Looks more Joss Whedon then Zach Snyder quite frankly.


That trailer did feel more like a Whedon movie than a Snyder movie.

----------


## Frontier

Hey, Flash isn't even getting a proper solo movie. They're just doing another Flashpoint adaption  :Stick Out Tongue: .

That's going to get as run into the ground as the Death of Superman at this point.

----------


## Badou

> Who do you suppose the ending of the trailer is teasing?
> 
> Superman, a Lantern, Batgirl, Nightwing, Shazam or someone else entirely?


I imagine it was Superman or Green Lantern. It is a JL movie after all.

----------


## Triple J

> So instead of a Flash solo, we're getting Flashpoint? Really ?
> 
> I guess that confirms certain characters who people were guessing were on the original poster, with some possible new additions, and gives us a better look at their designs.
> 
> Guy, Midnighter, and Indigo-1 seem new.


It is an interesting move, but it's best to do it now.

If they want to make any radical changes, Flashpoint gives them an in-universe reason. Plus, the story never made much sense with a Veteran Barry...he wouldn't make such a mistake (he would realize that the consequences might be something even he could not imagine). It makes much more sense with a newbie Barry who isn't familiar with the inner workings of speedforce.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It might be Deathstroke.


Definitely Superman. Alfred even glances at the chest area when he says "hope".

----------


## JediKage

> For me DC doesn't offer interesting black heroes, Marvel does. Black Manta is awesome, though


DC needs to get Static out of Milestone's hands no matter the cost really.

Cause Geoff aint going to let John Stewart shine. 

@TooFlyToFail

come now just wait? Didn't you criticize Marvel for taking too long on a Female Superhero Solo? The more pressing problem is Cyborg wont work so who does DC have to challenge Black Panther?

Interesting to see there is no Gotham City Sirens straight into Suicide Squad II.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Also: "No Lanterns. No Kryptonian. This world will fall, like the others." 

Goosebumps!

----------


## Frontier

> It is an interesting move, but it's best to do it now.
> 
> If they want to make any radical changes, Flashpoint gives them an in-universe reason. Plus, the story never made much sense with a Veteran Barry...he wouldn't make such a mistake (he would realize that the consequences might be something even he could not imagine). It makes much more sense with a newbie Barry who isn't familiar with the inner workings of speedforce.


I think, definitely, the most curious thing will be how it changes the DCEU. 

It might constitute a literal Rebirth in some ways. 

And I guess at least it's good to finally get that storyline out of the way so they can actually do different stuff with The Flash going forward.

----------


## JediKage

> Hey, Flash isn't even getting a proper solo movie. They're just doing another Flashpoint adaption .
> 
> That's going to get as run into the ground as the Death of Superman at this point.


Its insurance if they need to course correct again but yes it is getting run into the proverbial ground.

----------


## El_Gato

> Great lineup. Guy Gardner is in there.


I was hoping they'd only use Hal, John and Jessica. Oh well

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That trailer did feel more like a Whedon movie than a Snyder movie.


How, when most of what we saw, we heard of prior to Whedon even being involved in Batgirl, let alone JL?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I was hoping they'd only use Hal, John and Jessica. Oh well


Doew that picture actually mean anything?

----------


## darkseidpwns

Visually its a Zack movie, content wise feels more like Whedon.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Looks like a Snyder movie to me, looks completely different to Avengers trailer. 

Anyway interesting seeing more of WW, AM, Flash and Cyborg together. Wonder where Bats is....? Hmm.

----------


## El_Gato

> Doew that picture actually mean anything?


Probably does considering most of those characters have rumored projects in development. Definitely means their on DC's radar

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> DC needs to get Static out of Milestone's hands no matter the cost really.
> 
> Cause Geoff aint going to let John Stewart shine. 
> 
> @TooFlyToFail
> 
> come now just wait? Didn't you criticize Marvel for taking too long on a Female Superhero Solo? The more pressing problem is Cyborg wont work so who does DC have to challenge Black Panther?
> 
> Interesting to see there is no Gotham City Sirens straight into Suicide Squad II.


We have a Polynesian Atlantian king. Just because Cyborg is black doesn't mean we compare to BP. They're not remotely the same. If it was John Stewart, I'd say the same thing.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Visually its a Zack movie, content wise feels more like Whedon.


How? Most of the movie was shot by Snyder...

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Probably does considering most of those characters have rumored projects in development. Definitely means their on DC's radar


I'm happy then.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Doew that picture actually mean anything?


They keep showing it for a reason.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> How, when most of what we saw, we heard of prior to Whedon even being involved in Batgirl, let alone JL?


It's funny if Snyder never dropped out no one would be say this. Snyder and co said from the start it was gonna be "less dark". 

I see and feel zero Whedon here.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Ray put the extensive reshoots rumour to bed, like I kept saying from the start but ya'll kept believing. Don't ya'll feel like fools now?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Lightning Rider

My God the trailer looks amazing.

----------


## vasir12

> We have a Polynesian Atlantian king. Just because Cyborg is black doesn't mean we compare to BP. They're not remotely the same. If it was John Stewart, I'd say the same thing.


In a cultural point of view, Aquaman isn't comparable to BP. The actor may be polynesian but Aquaman's character isn't.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

That trailer was epic as hell! I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT! Those are so stunning visuals right there, looking like Snyder type with brighter colours. That humour definitely feels like Whedon. Steppenwolf arriving at Themyscira reminded me of Loki arriving at the S.H.I.E.L.D base.

I'm actually pretty excited now. This might be good

----------


## Pinsir

> How? Most of the movie was shot by Snyder...


A lot of people have convinced themselves that Joss Whedon reshot an entire movie in a month.

----------


## Prime

No Man Of Steel 2  :Frown:

----------


## Sodam Yat

> He's got the least amount to work with in terms of a solo property. He was created as part of a team book, and all his important relationships and developments were with that team. I love Vic, but he works best with the Titans. They'd be wise to include him in that in some capacity.


Well DC did have over a half of decade to really establish the character and still doesn't seem to be enough. Cyborg has fans, but he gets lots of criticism for many different reasons. If he doesn't ever get a solo movie, then I guess DC/WB doesn't have real confidence towards the character. And him being a token is starting to be more obvious than ever, which is not good at all.




> Also: "No Lanterns. No Kryptonian. This world will fall, like the others." 
> 
> Goosebumps!


I'm guessing that was Supergirl on that hologram in the trailer.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's funny if Snyder never dropped out no one would be say this. Snyder and co said from the start it was gonna be "less dark".


I would.  This trailer doesn't feel at all like any of Snyder's previous movies.  This trailer was likely put together by Whedon with most of Snyder's material.  I stress "the trailer."  I'm not saying the movie will seem like a Whedon movie because I've said a few times now that I don't see how he could do it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> How, when most of what we saw, we heard of prior to Whedon even being involved in Batgirl, let alone JL?


I meant to say trailer... a Whedon style trailer made from what Snyder previously shot.

----------


## Rogue Star

> 


Part of me wishes it was Nightwing appearing at the end and not Superman.  = 3=

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Hey, Flash isn't even getting a proper solo movie. They're just doing another Flashpoint adaption .
> 
> That's going to get as run into the ground as the Death of Superman at this point.


I think doing a Flashpoint movie is a really smart of move, Frontier. If DCEU isn't well received to this point, then it's a good idea to do some changes.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Part of me wishes it was Nightwing appearing at the end and not Superman.  = 3=


That was my initial thought. But it wouldn't have the same impact.

----------


## Sirzechs

> A lot of people have convinced themselves that Joss Whedon reshot an entire movie in a month.


comic book movie fans are the easiest people to pull a fast one on, thi could be a Snyder movie shot for shot but just change the name of the director as proxy and they'll judge it differently.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> comic book movie fans are the easiest people to pull a fast one on, thi could be a Snyder movie shot for shot but just change the name of the director as proxy and they'll judge it differently.


Is people really giving more credit to Whedon over Snyder? LOL.

----------


## yohyoi

> No Man Of Steel 2


But they will do Suicide Squad  :Frown:  I'm not confident with the DCEU.

----------


## Calvinr

Trailer looks sooo good  :Big Grin: , lol after watching it multiple times now already, I maintain my belief that this is still a Snyder movie, with whedon still sticking to Zack's vision but just making sure it flows better as a story, and obviously handling the reshoots (which I think were no where near as big as made out) , I think the fact the movie wasn't pushed back (thank god) more or less proves this.

We won't know for sure until November, but there just my early thoughts.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Well DC did have over a half of decade to really establish the character and still doesn't seem to be enough. Cyborg has fans, but he gets lots of criticism for many different reasons. If he doesn't ever get a solo movie, then I guess DC/WB doesn't have real confidence towards the character. And him being a token is starting to be more obvious than ever, which is not good at all.
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm guessing that was Supergirl on that hologram in the trailer*.


That's a mighty big thigh for a Supergirl :P I think it's pretty clearly Kal there.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> A lot of people have convinced themselves that Joss Whedon reshot an entire movie in a month.


Not only that, Whedon reshot the previous DCEU films, too!

----------


## El_Gato

> But they will do Suicide Squad  I'm not confident with the DCEU.


Of course they're doing Suicide Squad 2 over MOS2. Man of Steel only made 668 million world wide with China while Squad made 745 million world wide WITHOUT China! DC/WB is still a business after all

----------


## Sirzechs

> Well DC did have over a half of decade to really establish the character and still doesn't seem to be enough. Cyborg has fans, but he gets lots of criticism for many different reasons. If he doesn't ever get a solo movie, then I guess DC/WB doesn't have real confidence towards the character. And him being a token is starting to be more obvious than ever, which is not good at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that was Supergirl on that hologram in the trailer.


Comic book material is irrelevant from a director crafting a movie standpoint, majority of the time directors read up on characters to get a feel of what they're like but you don't need 70 years of material to make a good film as most of the time cbms use the bare minimum. 

While a Cyborg film hasn't been announced I'm not worried about that. If he's well received by the audience that changes a lot. A Harley film wasn't announced until after Suicide Squad was released these things really depend on how the movies turn out.

----------


## JediKage

> In a cultural point of view, Aquaman isn't comparable to BP. The actor may be polynesian but Aquaman's character isn't.


Beyond that Atlantis is still white for the most part it seems and BP wasn't racebent.

The point though is who is DC's TOP Black Hero...Cyborg is no threat.

Even worse he look pure Token.

----------


## Johnny

Trailer looks good. I'd say I'm hyped. Kind of surprised they still didn't show Superman at all, I thought we would get at least a glimpse of him. I guess we kinda did. lol

----------


## Spiritualcramp

Flash's terrible attempts at humor don't add any levity just cringe. Steppenwolf was cool, Diana is still the only good part about the trailer

----------


## Darkseid Is

Trailer looks incredible. I'm sure the clip at the end is Superman because it says "ALL IN" but what if they pull a fast one and it's Orion  :Embarrassment:  I can dream.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Is people really giving more credit to Whedon over Snyder? LOL.


Yep, its hilarious really.

----------


## Dominick1216

Do you think that maybe they are producing a Man of Steel 2, but the whole keeping Superman's return a secret thing, and with Henry Cavill not being at SDCC, they won't announce it until Justice League is released?

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Flash's terrible attempts at humor don't add any levity just cringe. Steppenwolf was cool, Diana is still the only good part about the trailer


I thought it was a little cringey in the first trailer but I thought this new one was funny.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Few of my thoughts: 

 The timeline must be not long after the events of BvS; when Lois is at the Metropolis memorial, Kal's statue is still in ruins and not rebuilt. 

 I enjoy Barry mentioning he has never done battle, just pushing people out of the way of things. 

 Batman is perched overlooking the Kryptonian ship. 

 "One wishes for the day when one's biggest problem was wind-up exploding penguins." Awesome. 

 Steppenwolf looks much better than I thought he would, considering he's CG. 

 A hint of red in the corner of the screen where Alfred says "let us HOPE you're not too late." Alfred also emphasis 'hope' with a casual nod/glance towards the chest area (obviously the S). 

 Green Lanterns mentioned. I wonder why Earth has no Lanterns? Has the Corps already been taken out by Hal/Parallax in this timeline? Possible, considering 20 years of history has occured prior to BvS. Hal could have gone off to space during Bruce's 20 years in Gotham.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Do you think that maybe they are producing a Man of Steel 2, but the whole keeping Superman's return a secret thing, and with Henry Cavill not being at SDCC, they won't announce it until Justice League is released?


Could be. Didn't Snyder say something about Brainiac in the near future or something like that?

----------


## Darkseid Is

> • Green Lanterns mentioned.* I wonder why Earth has no Lanterns?* Has the Corps already been taken out by Hal/Parallax in this timeline? Possible, considering 20 years of history has occured prior to BvS. Hal could have gone off to space during Bruce's 20 years in Gotham.


I just assume Abin Sur is still alive. But if he were alive wouldn't he come help with the Steppenwolf situation? Oh, the conundrum!

----------


## Sodam Yat

> That's a mighty big thigh for a Supergirl :P I think it's pretty clearly Kal there.


Well I never seen superman forget to put on his pants LOL  :Smile: 




> Comic book material is irrelevant from a director crafting a movie standpoint, majority of the time directors read up on characters to get a feel of what they're like but you don't need 70 years of material to make a good film as most of the time cbms use the bare minimum. 
> 
> While a Cyborg film hasn't been announced I'm not worried about that. If he's well received by the audience that changes a lot. A Harley film wasn't announced until after Suicide Squad was released these things really depend on how the movies turn out.


Good point there. Maybe WB are waiting to see how Cyborg gets received and what kind of feedback he gets, before they decide whether or not to give him a solo film. Hopefully Cyborg gets well received in the Justice League film.

----------


## JediKage

Stephenwolf did look pretty good. 

No Cyborg movie shows a lack of faith...all the other Leaguers are getting a solo but Cyborg has to wait for SHAZAM, SSIII and Batgirl to even get a sniff at a chance yeah that smells.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Beyond that Atlantis is still white for the most part it seems and BP wasn't racebent.
> 
> The point though is who is DC's TOP Black Hero...Cyborg is no threat.
> 
> Even worse he look pure Token.


Why is he a token black, again?

----------


## Triple J

> Do you think that maybe they are producing a Man of Steel 2, but the whole keeping Superman's return a secret thing, and with Henry Cavill not being at SDCC, they won't announce it until Justice League is released?


Yeah, that is possible. It wouldn't make sense to announce it now, especially since they are going with "where is Superman" angle in promotional material.




> I just assume Abin Sur is still alive. But if he were alive wouldn't he come help with the Steppenwolf situation? Oh, the conundrum!


Eradicated by Manhunters, maybe? Perhaps this is a universe where Corps and Manhunters fought and ended up destroying each other in the process.

----------


## Pinsir

I thought Cyborg had a pretty good showing in this trailer...

----------


## Punisher007

Alfred could be talking to one of the Lanterns at the end there? 

Anyway the only minor nitpicks that I have with this are that a couple of shots have pretty ropey CGI (hopefully they clean that up in the next few months), still not wild about Flash or Cyborg's looks, and I have concerns about it being overstuffed maybe. 
But, I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic here, for now.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Not only that, Whedon reshot the previous DCEU films, too!


Did he really!? I had no idea. I don't follow the DCEU films as much as users on these forums, so it's a surprise for me.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Well I never seen superman forget to put on his pants LOL 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point there. Maybe WB are waiting to see how Cyborg gets received and what kind of feedback he gets, before they decide whether or not to give him a solo film. Hopefully Cyborg gets well received in the Justice League film.


Skip to about 1:42, Kal has pants on lol

----------


## Jokerz79

> Ben just said he isn't going anywhere.


He also once said he was directing the Batman solo film and everything was fine.

----------


## JediKage

> Alfred could be talking to one of the Lanterns at the end there? 
> 
> Anyway the only minor nitpicks that I have with this are that a couple of shots have pretty ropey CGI (hopefully they clean that up in the next few months), still not wild about Flash or Cyborg's looks, and I have concerns about it being overstuffed maybe. 
> But, I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic here, for now.


Eh I give the CGI some time.

No Joss didn't do anything with the previous movies.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Did he really!? I had no idea. I don't follow the DCEU films as much as users on these forums, so it's a surprise for me.


Heh. Whedon is just a magic man, SY.  :Big Grin:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I thought Cyborg had a pretty good showing in this trailer...


Me too. I also think one of his arcs will be to lighten up by the end. 

Expect a booyah, towards the end of the movie.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

If Steppenwolf kills the Amazons I will revolt

----------


## Darkseid Is

Why does everything turn into a race debate?

----------


## JediKage

> Why is he a token black, again?


No Solo Movie, Barely Looks Human, Only There Because Geoff John's Bias? Unlikely to be allowed to shine at all in this movie.

What he do in this trailer? The only thing he did was hack one of Bat's vehicles.

----------


## Iconic

Maybe that rumor of Cyborg sharing a movie with Flash is what Flashpoint is. He _was_ a major player in the Flashpoint series so...possibly. That and he's supposedly the crux of the Justice League movie. Cyborg will be alright.

----------


## Sirzechs

> No Solo Movie, Barely Looks Human, Only There Because Geoff John's Bias? Unlikely to be allowed to shine at all in this movie.


All hail predictor of movie!!!

----------


## yohyoi

> Why does everything turn into a race debate?


You might not want to know the answer. It's very controversial.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Maybe that rumor of Cyborg sharing a movie with Flash is what Flashpoint is. He _was_ a major player in the Flashpoint series so...possibly. That and he's supposedly the crux of the Justice League movie. Cyborg will be alright.


Stop making sense the thread doesn't need common sense.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Also as a Flash fan, I think Barry's humor is appropriate. It's awkward and more unintentionally funny. It's not wise-cracking or sarcastic, which is more Wally.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> All hail predictor of movie!!!


Yup. I like how he edited his post lol

----------


## JediKage

> All hail predictor of movie!!!


Ah Geoff Johns Greatest Fanboy, I was wondering where you were.

----------


## Jokerz79

They scrap Gotham City Sirens?

----------


## El_Gato

> Why does everything turn into a race debate?


Because it isn't 1960 anymore and Blacks, Latinos, Asians...etc exist too!

----------


## JediKage

^ Yes but according to the guys here one should be happy for the scraps and the subpar treatment.

Looks like it though it does seem you could roll most of the ideas for Gotham City Sirens into a SSII or Batgirl movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> They scraped Gotham City Sirens?


I doubt it. This slate is just covering the next few years, isn't it?

----------


## Dominick1216

> Could be. Didn't Snyder say something about Brainiac in the near future or something like that?


Yup, he did.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/07/...superman-movie

----------


## Sirzechs

> They scraped Gotham City Sirens?


I doubt it, I also doubt these are all the movies DC are working on, there was a rumor about a Harley vs Joker movie but that could just be the plot of Sirens.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Because it isn't 1960 anymore and Blacks, Latinos, Asians...etc exist too!


But why does it have to be pointed out that someone is black latino or asian? Why do people have to constantly talk about it? Everyone won't be treated as equal if everyone keeps saying we're different.

----------


## gwangung

> But why does it have to be pointed out that someone is black latino or asian? Why do people have to constantly talk about it? Everyone won't be treated as equal if everyone keeps saying we're different.


BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAHA!

That's a good one.

----------


## JediKage

> But why does it have to be pointed out that someone is black latino or asian? Why do people have to constantly talk about it? Everyone won't be treated as equal if everyone keeps saying we're different.


That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

You shouldn't have to ignore differences to treat people equally.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAHA!
> 
> That's a good one.


That's enough out of you, Booster.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Seen it three times! God, this looks incredible!

It's definitely not a Joss Whedon movie. Maybe he added in some humor, but I'm seeing Zack Snyder's fingerprints all over the place. 

Barry Allen is going to steal the audience's heart, I guarantee it!

Diana looks great and it was so awesome to see Themiscyra and Hippolyta again. 

Cyborg? Hacking one of Batman's rides is no small feat, and I'm betting that scene where he's taking to the sky will be another great "shine" moment for him, so I don't know what people are talking about. 

Aquaman? The ladies are going to SWOON over him and the guys are going to want to be him! He looks so badass! 

Bats? Nothing truly noteworthy here, but those action shots of his are spectacular. 

Steppenwolf? Holy crap, he looks intimidating! Loved his line about the lack of Lanterns and Kryptonians. This lends some credence to my theory that that flashback scene we're getting may feature a little tease about the GLC. Maybe they arrive and help the forces of Earth turn the tide against Darkseid. That'll be incredible if it happens. Also pretty curious about WHY he takes note of the lack of Lanterns? Unless the DCEU GLC is supposed to maintain a Lantern on just about every inhabited world in the universe, how can he be so certain that there won't be some kind of intervention from the Lanterns? 

I'm so glad that they didn't show Superman. I know we all want to see him, but I think his return is going to have a lot more impact if it at least tries to be a surprise. 

So hyped!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I doubt it, I also doubt these are all the movies DC are working on, there was a rumor about a Harley vs Joker movie but that could just be the plot of Sirens.


Agreed. I think the films announced are just the ones they have on tap, and are 100% committed to. Other films will come as well, they just aren't as far along yet. 

Notice there's no JL2 (we know there will be), no GCS, no MoS2, no Nightwing, etc. They'll announce more when the time is right.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
> 
> You shouldn't have to ignore differences to treat people equally.


But there aren't any differences. Cultural differences, sure. I just get sick of the arguments. Do people really still think about this stuff? It's 2017 for Christ sake.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> No Solo Movie, Barely Looks Human, Only There Because Geoff John's Bias? Unlikely to be allowed to shine at all in this movie.
> 
> What he do in this trailer? The only thing he did was hack one of Bat's vehicles.


So? Cyborg plays a big role in Flashpoint, so clearly that isn't going to be wholy Flash centric. They've already said that Cyborg is one of the more important characters in the movie.

The trailers are just advertising the big hitters in the trailer. Watching the AoU trailer, no one would assume there was gonna be much focus on Hawkeye, or Black Widow.

----------


## JediKage

It has Flash's name on the movie. Yeah they say a lot of things I prefer tangible proof personally. And I don't see it. 

Well yes but that is because Marvel had no plans and never said they were planning to do solos for those two. 




> But there aren't any differences. Cultural differences, sure. I just get sick of the arguments. Do people really still think about this stuff? It's 2017 for Christ sake.


So how do you plan for people to get equal treatment if they don't talk about it?

----------


## Clark_Kent

Maybe you guys can take the race debate to another thread?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
> 
> You shouldn't have to ignore differences to treat people equally.
> 
> Lol @Sirzechs defend your boy Ted here. I wanna see you try.


Is that why you keep saying he's a token black? Because he's not being pushed as the Black DC Hero, like BP is being pushed as the Black Marvel Hero?

----------


## Sirzechs

I'm jut here looking at Aqua man surfing on parademon.

----------


## JediKage

That was the coolest scene in the trailer. Although it is kinda weird Aquaman is talking about dying when he seems to be having so much fun fighting so...maybe he is yanking their chains or going for gallows humor. 




> Is that why you keep saying he's a token black? Because he's not being pushed as the Black DC Hero, like BP is being pushed as the Black Marvel Hero?


He is not getting pushed at all if you ask me...and we all know why Cyborg is on the team...the general audience might not know but we comic fans know far more about situation thanks to following good old Geoff Johns and his comic work for a decade or so.

----------


## Flyattractor

> Because it isn't 1960 anymore and Blacks, Latinos, Asians...etc exist too!


And it is this kind of nonsense that makes Comic Books SUCK!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Because it isn't 1960 anymore and Blacks, Latinos, Asians...etc exist too!


True, but if it is all that some people talk about then it could eventually lead to people not listening out of fatigue.




> It's definitely not a Joss Whedon movie. Maybe he added in some humor, but I'm seeing Zack Snyder's fingerprints all over the place. 
> 
> Barry Allen is going to steal the audience's heart, I guarantee it!
> 
> Diana looks great and it was so awesome to see Themiscyra and Hippolyta again. 
> 
> Cyborg? Hacking one of Batman's rides is no small feat, and I'm betting that scene where he's taking to the sky will be another great "shine" moment for him, so I don't know what people are talking about. 
> 
> Aquaman? The ladies are going to SWOON over him and the guys are going to want to be him! He looks so badass! 
> ...


I think Aquaman and Flash will steal the show for many of their scenes.  




> Also as a Flash fan, I think Barry's humor is appropriate. It's awkward and more unintentionally funny. It's not wise-cracking or sarcastic, which is more Wally.


I agree.  He may be odd as hell, but it does seem like Ezra has done his homework on Barry Allen.  It kind of reminded me of Barry Allen in  Justice League: War.

----------


## El_Gato

> But why does it have to be pointed out that someone is black latino or asian? Why do people have to constantly talk about it? Everyone won't be treated as equal if everyone keeps saying we're different.


You just opened up a huge can of worms bro! People like seeing themselves as heroes on the big screen. That's why characters like John Stewart, Vixen, Katana, Atom, Blue Beetle, Jessica Cruz...etc are so important and that's why race is always brought up. Same with gender (Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn....etc).

----------


## El_Gato

> And it is this kind of nonsense that makes Comic Books SUCK!


Why is representation nonsense!?? Enlighten me!

----------


## Sirzechs

> Maybe you guys can take the race debate to another thread?


Its so annoying. No matter the announcement people always look for the worst to highlight. Hollywood on a whole is shitty at making racial diverse films but DC has taken steps they may not be large ones but steps none the less. To date Suicide Squad is still the most diverse CBM when it comes to gender and racial diversity. I just wish today wasn't the day y'all brought this to the threads.

----------


## Frontier

I smiled at the Penguin reference  :Wink: .

And I guess Wonder Woman is fighting crime in Washington DC, which is why she showed up at the hostage situation? Or at least she goes where she's needed or in the vicinity of. 

I really want to see Gordon's face to seeing Flash as the only one still there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## JediKage

> Its so annoying. No matter the announcement people always look for the worst to highlight. Hollywood on a whole is shitty at making racial diverse films but DC has taken steps they may not be large ones but steps none the less. To date Suicide Squad is still the most diverse CBM when it comes to gender and racial diversity. I just wish today wasn't the day y'all brought this to the threads.


The movie about criminals is the most diverse....

Meh you see a slate and Cyborg is the only one without a movie not sure why it wouldn't come up.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> You just opened up a huge can of worms bro! People like seeing themselves as heroes on the big screen. That's why characters like John Stewart, Vixen, Katana, Atom, Blue Beetle, Jessica Cruz are so important and that's why race is always brought up. Same with gender (Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn....etc).


I hope I'm not being misinterpreted here and I hope we can end this discussion. If you'd like to PM me it's cool. I just mean it's always brought up in a negative way.

----------


## Johnny

> Steppenwolf? Holy crap, he looks intimidating! Loved his line about the lack of Lanterns and Kryptonians. This lends some credence to my theory that that flashback scene we're getting may feature a little tease about the GLC. Maybe they arrive and help the forces of Earth turn the tide against Darkseid. That'll be incredible if it happens. Also pretty curious about WHY he takes note of the lack of Lanterns? Unless the DCEU GLC is supposed to maintain a Lantern on just about every inhabited world in the universe, how can he be so certain that there won't be some kind of intervention from the Lanterns?


Very good point. Steppenwolf does indeed talk about the GLs as if they "should" be there, but they're not. Perhaps he believes they've been exterminated? I'm also wondering if this could be a meta context to address people who keep asking why Green Lantern isn't in the movie. Obviously there would be, or at least should be, an in-universe explanation for his absence but that line provides some food for thought. That's also the reason I'm not okay with the idea of an older veteran Hal Jordan. I understand not showing up for Zod's invasion or the Doomsday rampage, but how is veteran Hal not going to show up when Darkseid's freaking army attacks his home planet? What other crisis could be more important for him than that.

----------


## JediKage

> I smiled at the Penguin reference .
> 
> And I guess Wonder Woman is fighting crime in Washington DC, which is why she showed up at the hostage situation? Or at least she goes where she's needed or in the vicinity of. 
> 
> I really want to see Gordon's face to seeing Flash as the only one still there .


I thought it was funny the criminal tried to knock her out...did he not watch the Doomsday footage?

----------


## Sirzechs

> The movie about criminals is the most diverse....
> 
> Meh you see a slate and Cyborg is the only one without a movie not sure why it wouldn't come up.


Painting with a mighty broad brush there friend.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I definitely get the sense the sector's Lantern is "missing" and that wolfy knows it. Makes his timing perfect.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Its so annoying. No matter the announcement people always look for the worst to highlight. Hollywood on a whole is shitty at making racial diverse films but DC has taken steps they may not be large ones but steps none the less. To date Suicide Squad is still the most diverse CBM when it comes to gender and racial diversity. I just wish today wasn't the day y'all brought this to the threads.


Yep. DC can't win. They make a racially diverse film in SS, and people bitch. They put Wonder Woman front and center, they bitch. Both of these things are things Marvel has yet to do. But when DC does it, people bitch anyway. 

Oh well.

----------


## JediKage

WW was good would have been great but the last act let it down still I have read nothing but praise for WW so not sure where you are getting that

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The movie about criminals is the most diverse....
> 
> Meh you see a slate and Cyborg is the only one without a movie not sure why it wouldn't come up.


You know who else doesn't have a solo on the slate? 

Alfred. DC is ageist too!!!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> WW was good would have been great but the last act let it down still I have read nothing but praise for WW so not sure where you are getting that.


I didn't name names, but if you got all prickly about it then my post must have hit a nerve.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Yep. DC can't win. They make a racially diverse film in SS, and people bitch. They put Wonder Woman front and center, they bitch. Both of these things are things Marvel has yet to do. But when DC does it, people bitch anyway. 
> 
> Oh well.


Exactly it's DC thing, they sat and enjoyed 16+ Marvel films with white male leads and never complained but can't give DC a proper chance to get the universe off the ground.

----------


## El_Gato

> Yep. DC can't win. They make a racially diverse film in SS, and people bitch. They put Wonder Woman front and center, they bitch. Both of these things are things Marvel has yet to do. But when DC does it, people bitch anyway. 
> 
> Oh well.


Well to be fair if SS was actually a critical success you would hear nothing but praise for it like with Wonder Woman currently. Its diverse cast was probably the best thing about that film (made me a fan of Diablo)!

----------


## JediKage

> You know who else doesn't have a solo on the slate? 
> 
> Alfred. DC is ageist too!!!


Ah finally the False Equivalencies roll in....is Alfred build as a founding member of the Justice League.
Did DC ever announce a Alfred Solo movie and renege on it?

Although I should note WW is pretty old.

----------


## Frontier

I liked that we got to see the entire League (more or less) fighting Steppenwolf together.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Ah finally the False Equivalencies roll in....is Alfred build as a founding member of the Justice League.
> Did DC ever announce a Alfred Solo movie and renege on it?
> 
> Although I should note WW is pretty old.


An Alfred solo would be sweet, would it be a war film?

----------


## Johnny

> He is not getting pushed at all if you ask me...and we all know why Cyborg is on the team...the general audience might not know but we comic fans know far more about situation thanks to following good old Geoff Johns and his comic work for a decade or so.


Yes, yes, Geoff has Cyborg in the JL so he can keep Hal in there. We've heard that million times before. The catch here is that Hal is NOT in the movie. Cyborg is but Hal isn't, so in this particular instance, what does Geoff gain from that when his boy isn't actually there.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> An Alfred solo would be sweet, would it be a war film?


Who knows, maybe WW would make a cameo appearance.

----------


## JediKage

What war would Alfred even be in? The Falklands?

----------


## Assam

BWAHAHAHA! They're actually adapting Flashpoint for the Flash movie. If I had _any_ interest in this film to begin with, this news would have hit it over the head with a hammer, kicked it in the groin, and fed it to Bart Allen as a topping on a sandwich.  :Wink:

----------


## Sirzechs

> Who knows, maybe WW would make a cameo appearance.


Oddly enough the next WW film is said to be set in the Cold War so Alfred could make  cameo.

----------


## Frontier

> BWAHAHAHA! They're actually adapting Flashpoint for the Flash movie. If I had _any_ interest in this film to begin with, this news would have hit it over the head with a hammer, kicked it in the groin, and fed it to Bart Allen as a topping on a sandwich.


At least they're getting it over with  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## gwangung

> Exactly it's DC thing, they sat and enjoyed 16+ Marvel films with white male leads and never complained.


I will note that this is not a true statement.

----------


## JediKage

> At least they're getting it over with .


Seems par for the course after all we got to Death of Superman in a mere 2 Movies. 

DC is covering those greatest hits fast.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Considering who they cast as Thomas and Martha Wayne, a Flashpoint movie shouldn't be _that_ surprising. The likelihood of it happening has always been very high.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I am sorry when did you become a MOD, @Clark_Kent
> 
> What war would Alfred even be in? The Falklands?


The great lantern war of 86

----------


## JediKage

Not the one of the 93?

----------


## El_Gato

> BWAHAHAHA! They're actually adapting Flashpoint for the Flash movie. If I had _any_ interest in this film to begin with, this news would have hit it over the head with a hammer, kicked it in the groin, and fed it to Bart Allen as a topping on a sandwich.


Flashpoint is actually one of my favorite DC stories so I'm glad they're doing it! All the key players already exist in the DCEU for it anyway (Flash, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg, Mera...etc) so just go for it. 

Flashpoint will be JL 1.5 like Civil War is Avengers 2.5

----------


## Sirzechs

> I will note that this is not a true statement.


What's false about it? The 16+ white leads or the other part?

----------


## Rogue Star

> Flash's terrible attempts at humor don't add any levity just cringe. Steppenwolf was cool, Diana is still the only good part about the trailer


I thought that last joke with Flash was pretty good.

----------


## Dominick1216

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...-dick-greyson/

I think that would be a good way to set up for a Nightwing film down the road.

----------


## Agent Z

Just to be clear are they actually adapting the Flashpoint storyline or are they just using the name like how Age of Ultron borrowed the name and had nothing in common with the book?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Just to be clear are they actually adapting the Flashpoint storyline or are they just using the name like how Age of Ultron borrowed the name and had nothing in common with the book?


Probably closer to how Civil War was used. Sorta like the comic...but still a lot left off the table.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

The Superman part about seeing the best in people came off as bull to me. In the DCEU I did not see any inkling of of this.

----------


## Desean101101

> The Superman part about seeing the best in people came off as bull to me. In the DCEU I did not see any inkling of of this.


Actually Most of BvS was superman hoping people would get over there hang ups about him and help him but shit went sideways, Its like you never watched the movie

----------


## Assam

> The Superman part about seeing the best in people came off as bull to me. In the DCEU I did not see any inkling of of this.


Definitely inclined to agree.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Probably closer to how Civil War was used. Sorta like the comic...but still a lot left off the table.


It better not be a faithful re-creation of Flashpoint. If they expect me to sit through a movie where Wonder Woman turns the UK into an anti-male concentration camp and murdered Billy Batson in his child form, they've got another thing coming.

----------


## Starchild

The trailer was excellent, even better than the first one to me. I still would have love to seen Superman in it. It's getting annoying at this point. 

As for Cyborg being left off of the movie slate. It was expected. He's never been priority. Why would it change?

----------


## Cyborguy

I'm amazed such a garbage character like Steppenwolf looks badass.

----------


## Atlanta96

It looks bad.

Miller's Flash sounds horrible.

Aquaman is 90s extreme.

The one-liners are blatant attempts to recreate Whedons dialogue and fail, despite Whedon being involved.

The epic feel and lofty ambitions of the film don't work because the buildup was ass. 

The only thing it has going for it is flashy special effects and an improved color palette.

This movie is going to break me.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Did anyone notice the shot of Aquaman, WW, Flash, and Cyborg standing in front of the Metropolis memorial (I think that was Cyborg...some posters say he does nothing in this movie so that might not have been him)? Anyway, you can see flowers laid out by mourners, and the Kryptonian ship in the background. Also, Metropolis PD cruisers are present. Everyone (including the cops) are looking up...and it's in daylight. Looks like it could be a big moment...

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Actually Most of BvS was superman hoping people would get over there hang ups about him and help him but shit went sideways, Its like you never watched the movie


I did and detest it. I mean there were montages of him saving people but him influencing them to see their best parts?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> It better not be a faithful re-creation of Flashpoint. If they expect me to sit through a movie where Wonder Woman turns the UK into an anti-male concentration camp and murdered Billy Batson in his child form, they've got another thing coming.


I think the main point of doing Flashpoint is it's a known story arc that will get people hyped, and it allows them to deviate from the source material to primarily introduce the multiverse, as well as potentially (not saying it's planned but rather a backup plan) replace any actor using the Flash's time travel (i.e.--he goes back and gets a younger Bruce).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The Superman part about seeing the best in people came off as bull to me. In the DCEU I did not see any inkling of of this.


The line is that he made people see the best in THEMSELVES. 

A godlike being helping people over and over again without thought of reward or recognition definitely does that. Hence the reason why the whole world is mourning him. And we saw him doing A LOT of that in BvS.

----------


## Agent Z

> I did and detest it. I mean there were montages of him saving people but him influencing them to see their best parts?


Bruce literally stated that he's going to be a better man because of Clark.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It better not be a faithful re-creation of Flashpoint. If they expect me to sit through a movie where Wonder Woman turns the UK into an anti-male concentration camp and murdered Billy Batson in his child form, they've got another thing coming.


I'm betting it will be closer to the version the TV show went with. No Aquaman-WW war, but we may still see Thomas Wayne Batman & Cyborg doing their thing. I think if it was a straight up adaptation, then it would be "Justice League: Flashpoint". That's my hope, anyway.

----------


## BlackClaw

> I think the main point of doing Flashpoint is it's a known story arc that will get people hyped, and it allows them to deviate from the source material to primarily introduce the multiverse, as well as potentially (not saying it's planned but rather a backup plan) replace any actor using the Flash's time travel (i.e.--he goes back and gets a younger Bruce).


So Warner Bros is going to possibly pull a days of future past?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The line is that he made people see the best in THEMSELVES. 
> 
> A godlike being helping people over and over again without thought of reward or recognition definitely does that. Hence the reason why the whole world is mourning him. And we saw him doing A LOT of that in BvS.


This. Also, he was helping people for 18 months between films. We could read a lot about that on O'Keefe's wall.

----------


## Doctor Know

Flashpoint would be a good way to retell the Geoff Johns Nora Allen murdered by Thawne origin, that the Flash TV show adapted. Plus, it shows that Barry royally screwed up the timeline by trying to fix something that can't be changed. 

We knew Johns was going to insist on Thawne being in the Flash movie. People will grown because it's the hero fighting his evil clone trope.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I did and detest it. I mean there were montages of him saving people but him influencing them to see their best parts?


Bruce is the biggest example. And this line is coming from Bruce himself, so maybe he's projecting. But still, there were all those people who turned up at the memorial in Metropolis. Clearly he had a big impact.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Yeah I didn't really buy the whole "Superman was a symbol of hope" thing. I don't that's something Synder articulated very well in MoS and BvS (especially BvS). I get that he has a statue and people are mourning him, but why? Why does he actually have them? I don't recall the Metropolis receiving Superman positively after MoS and all of a sudden he gets a statue? Then BvS pretty much paints him as a god-like threat and menance and just because he somehow died, he's a symbol of hope? I just don't buy any of it really. It feels like a retcon.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Hey, Flash isn't even getting a proper solo movie. They're just doing another Flashpoint adaption .
> 
> That's going to get as run into the ground as the Death of Superman at this point.


Is the universe going to be reset?

----------


## dianafan1985

> Also: "No Lanterns. No Kryptonian. This world will fall, like the others." 
> 
> Goosebumps!


Obviously thats because Steppenwolf doesn't know what the other heroes are capable of. However, he will soon find out! :Big Grin:

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Bruce is the biggest example. And this line is coming from Bruce himself, so maybe he's projecting. But still, there were all those people who turned up at the memorial in Metropolis. Clearly he had a big impact.


Yes all of this happened, but for me it's not believable

----------


## Lightning Rider

"Thank you."
"For what?"
"For believing in me."
"Didn't make much of a difference in the end."
"It did to me."

"I don't know general. I guess I'll just have to trust you."

"I'm afraid I didn't see it because I wasn't looking."

"Bruce, please, I was wrong, you have to listen to me."
"You have to save Martha.." (as the man is trying to kill him.)

All examples of Superman seeing the best in people, even if he had his doubts in both movies.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I'm not convinced by Batman sentence at all.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yeah I didn't really buy the whole "Superman was a symbol of hope" thing. I don't that's something Synder articulated very well in MoS and BvS (especially BvS). I get that he has a statue and people are mourning him, but why? Why does he actually have them? I don't recall the Metropolis receiving Superman positively after MoS and all of a sudden he gets a statue? Then BvS pretty much paints him as a god-like threat and menance and just because he somehow died, he's a symbol of hope? I just don't buy any of it really. It feels like a retcon.


The movie doesn't portray him as menacing, there are constant references to both his supporters and detractors. There's no ambiguity as to whether he saves people on a regular basis. By the time he sacrifices himself he's universally celebrated. Far from a retcon.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

I liked the trailer. Aquaman & WW look to be my favorite characters. Somehow, I'm not liking Flash like I did the first teaser trailer.

Alfred is simply glorious!

I have no reaction for Cyborg, thus far. I will just have to watch the film to see if that changes (which I was gonna do anyway).

I really wish the "mystery" person Alfred spoke with was Hal Jordan, or Dick Grayson.

I am really glad Kal is staying behind the scenes.

I just want great films from both of the Big Two.

----------


## Robotman

while i've enjoyed the Flash tv show, i was very disappointed with how they handled Flashpoint. it wasn't some dystopian future but a reality where things we a little different. frankly a lot better for most of earth's inhabitants. with the film version they can go all out and have Jeffery Dean Morgan as Flashpoint Batman.

the Justice League trailer looked really good. but then again so did the Suicide Squad trailer and that turned out to be a steaming pile. so i'm remaining cautiously optimistic.

----------


## dianafan1985

> DC needs to get Static out of Milestone's hands no matter the cost really.
> 
> Cause Geoff aint going to let John Stewart shine. 
> 
> @TooFlyToFail
> 
> come now just wait? Didn't you criticize Marvel for taking too long on a Female Superhero Solo? The more pressing problem is Cyborg wont work so who does DC have to challenge Black Panther?
> 
> Interesting to see there is no Gotham City Sirens straight into Suicide Squad II.


Or there is Icon (I believe he is with DC), or Vixen. Cyborg works for me too: he is part computer, part human and has mid strength level. People have to see past the colour of his skin, as he is most definitely more interesting than that.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I'm amazed such a garbage character like Steppenwolf looks badass.


Still curious as to why they didn't just use Darkseid as the main villain.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> The movie doesn't portray him as menacing, there are constant references to both his supporters and detractors. There's no ambiguity as to whether he saves people on a regular basis. By the time he sacrifices himself he's universally celebrated. Far from a retcon.


Again, I understand the concepts BvS was trying to show, but I didn't buy any of the execution




This video perfectly articulates my problems with Superman in BvS. I advice you to watch it. Really watch it. Don't think about countering everything he says. Actually listen to what he's saying. He actually has very good solutions too.

----------


## JediKage

Too much like Thanos? Although a villain like Darksied deserves some buildup.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Just to be clear are they actually adapting the Flashpoint storyline or are they just using the name like how Age of Ultron borrowed the name and had nothing in common with the book?


I am crossing my fingers that its just a title, as what would be a legitimate reason to reset the entire DC Cinematic Universe when things are finally getting interesting?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Still curious as to why they didn't just use Darkseid as the main villain.


Darkseid's the biggest and most powerful villain in the DCU. He's also a tyrant king who doesn't see the need to sully his own hands when he has an entire planet full of loyal minions. He should only get involved once his minions fail him and he decides that this situation requires his personal attention.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> Again, I understand the concepts BvS was trying to show, but I didn't buy any of the execution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video perfectly articulates my problems with Superman in BvS. I advice you to watch it. Really watch it. Don't think about countering everything he says. Actually listen to what he's saying. He actually has very good solutions too.


I saw that video a while ago. He made some really great points.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Yeah I didn't really buy the whole "Superman was a symbol of hope" thing. I don't that's something Synder articulated very well in MoS and BvS (especially BvS). I get that he has a statue and people are mourning him, but why? Why does he actually have them? I don't recall the Metropolis receiving Superman positively after MoS and all of a sudden he gets a statue? Then BvS pretty much paints him as a god-like threat and menance and just because he somehow died, he's a symbol of hope? I just don't buy any of it really. It feels like a retcon.


I was arguing something similar to this on the Wonder Woman board, as that statement is so inconsistent of what we have seen of Clark so far. He was such a depressing drag in both movies, it took me off guard that people were mourning him. lol

----------


## MadFacedKid

I really don't get what their drawing Aquaman's personality from.

----------


## El_Gato

More character pics!!

----------


## dianafan1985

> Darkseid's the biggest and most powerful villain in the DCU. He's also a tyrant king who doesn't see the need to sully his own hands when he has an entire planet full of loyal minions. He should only get involved once his minions fail him and he decides that this situation requires his personal attention.


That made perfect sense when they had intentions to make a Justice League 2, as I thought that they were going to save the best (Darkseid) for last, but Justice League 2 has been scrapped, last I heard.  Therefore, when is Darkseid ever going to appear in the DCEU? I hope not in MOS2, or something, as I perceive him as more of a Justice League adversary than merely a Superman one.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Again, I understand the concepts BvS was trying to show, but I didn't buy any of the execution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video perfectly articulates my problems with Superman in BvS. I advice you to watch it. Really watch it. Don't think about countering everything he says. Actually listen to what he's saying. He actually has very good solutions too.


Ive already seen it and disagreed with the arguments, but I appreciate the respectful citation of a coherent argument. I don't disagree that the execution wasn't totally successful in conveying the notion, but it's there if you look imo.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I really don't get what their drawing Aquaman's personality from.


What do you mean?

----------


## Robotman

> I really don't get what their drawing Aquaman's personality from.


he seriously reminds me of this guy! seems to genuinely enjoy jumping into battle. a bit cocky and loud.  



i swear if he says "Outrageous!" i'm gonna totally nerd out.

----------


## Sodam Yat

Looks like Simon Baz behind Grundy in that pic

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I really don't get what their drawing Aquaman's personality from.


I'm a bit puzzled as well. Maybe longtime beach bum who is only a rookie King?

The only way I can really reconcile him saying "I dig it" and "I think we're all gonna die."

----------


## Vanguard-01

> That made perfect sense when they had intentions to make a Justice League 2, as I thought that they were going to save the best (Darkseid) for last, but Justice League 2 has been scrapped, last I heard.  Therefore, when is Darkseid ever going to appear in the DCEU? I hope not in MOS2, or something, as I perceive him as more of a Justice League adversary than merely a Superman one.


They haven't scrapped JL 2. They haven't even put out JL 1 yet. There will be more JL movies unless this one bombs so badly that WB would have to be crazy to attempt ANY more DC movies. 

Darkseid can appear in future JL movies. Heck, they could make an "event" movie that's just all about "Darkseid and the Forces of Apokolips vs. The DCU." That, obviously, would have to happen a ways off since they need to establish quite a few other characters before starting it. But it's an option.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> he seriously reminds me of this guy! seems to genuinely enjoy jumping into battle. a bit cocky and loud.  
> 
> 
> 
> i swear if he says "Outrageous!" i'm gonna totally nerd out.


I get that vibe, too.

----------


## Johnny

> Looks like Simon Baz behind Grundy in that pic


And Carol is standing next to Captain Cold. At this point seems like every GL is there except Kyle. He's gotta be hidden somewhere in the background too.

----------


## El_Gato

> Looks like Simon Baz behind Grundy in that pic


Yup! It seems the only GL missing so far is Kyle although if all the others are there too then he should be as well.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> What do you mean?


What version of Aquaman ever came off as a "Rocker" 

"I dig it!"
-Riding a Parademon- "Woooo"

I don't see Aquaman making exclamations like that. I'm reserving my judgment tho.




> he seriously reminds me of this guy! seems to genuinely enjoy jumping into battle. a bit cocky and loud.  
> 
> 
> 
> i swear if he says "Outrageous!" i'm gonna totally nerd out.


Not seeing that either. And I always saw Brave and The Bold as a parody so I didn't take it seriously.
Its just hard to believe this guy is a king of most the planet.. in a world that's suppose to be more what's the word.. "grounded"?

----------


## dianafan1985

> They haven't scrapped JL 2. They haven't even put out JL 1 yet. There will be more JL movies unless this one bombs so badly that WB would have to be crazy to attempt ANY more DC movies. 
> 
> Darkseid can appear in future JL movies. Heck, they could make an "event" movie that's just all about "Darkseid and the Forces of Apokolips vs. The DCU." That, obviously, would have to happen a ways off since they need to establish quite a few other characters before starting it. But it's an option.


LOL, if they made a Suicide Squad 2, and believe me, that was the worst movie I have ever seen in my entire life, and it pissed me off that it made so much money, they most definitely should make a Justice League 2. But I could swear a couple years ago DC had made plans to produce Justice League: Part 1, and then  Justice League: Part 2, but scrapped it after the numerous negative reviews about BvS. I could swear Justice League: Part 2 was scrapped... for now anyways?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> What version of Aquaman ever came off as a "Rocker" 
> 
> "I dig it!"
> -Riding a Parademon- "Woooo"
> 
> I don't see Aquaman making exclamations like that. I'm reserving my judgment tho.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They've already established that Justice League is before he becomes King of Atlantis. Either that or he just recently took the throne and was a normal, rock 'n roll-loving dude before he embraced his destiny to rule Atlantis. 

I don't have a problem with him having this personality. It may not be the most comic-faithful thing ever, but I can assure you that NOBODY is going to call this Aquaman "boring" or "weak."

----------


## dianafan1985

> What version of Aquaman ever came off as a "Rocker" 
> 
> "I dig it!"
> -Riding a Parademon- "Woooo"
> 
> I don't see Aquaman making exclamations like that. I'm reserving my judgment tho.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be honest my friend, I am not really a fan of Aquaman, so I know nada about him. But I suspect they want to revamp the image of the character in order to entice more people to become fans. The Superfriends Cartoon series royally screwed with two characters: one was Wonder Woman, and the other was Aquaman. DC has finally redeemed themselves with giving us such an awesome Wonder Woman movie, so I presume they are trying to do the same for Aquaman.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> LOL, if they made a Suicide Squad 2, and believe me, that was the worst movie I have ever seen in my entire life, and it pissed me off that it made so much money, they most definitely should make a Justice League 2. But I could swear a couple years ago DC had made plans to produce Justice League: Part 1, and then  Justice League: Part 2, but scrapped it after the numerous negative reviews about BvS. I could swear Justice League: Part 2 was scrapped... for now anyways?


They were originally planning to make Justice League a two-part movie. They decided against that and just kind of condensed the two movies into this one. The next Justice League movie will be some other story altogether. Maybe they'll face Darkseid or maybe it'll be some other threat entirely.

Keep in mind, the MCU has been building up to this conflict with Thanos for nearly ten years. Darkseid's arrival doesn't have to happen next year or even a couple years from now. He's such a huge deal that he deserves a lot of buildup before a fight with him.

----------


## Assam

> I don't have a problem with him having this personality. It may not be the most comic-faithful thing ever, but I can assure you that NOBODY is going to call this Aquaman "boring" or "weak."


Mass audiences respecting a version of a character that is nothing like what real fans love isn't exactly a win.

----------


## Robotman

after watching the trailer again and even watching some of those reaction videos on Youtube i really love how they handled Superman. i was hoping they wouldn't show him and keep building up the anticipation for his return. seeing the fans desperately wanting even a glimpse of him means the marketing is perfect. there hasn't been hype for Superman since before MoS. now fans are dying to see him again. it's nice to see Superman as the respected hero after Injustice and numerous bad portrayals in recent years.

----------


## JediKage

We don't need another Apocalypse. Where a rookie team of X-Men wins against Poccy in their introductory movie.

You can make any character popular in the movies with a mix of good lines, badass fight scenes and a cool look. A tried and true methodology.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Mass audiences respecting a version of a character that is nothing like what real fans love isn't exactly a win.


I'm a "real" fan as far as I know, and I love this new characterization. It's a win as far as I'm concerned.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> Mass audiences respecting a version of a character that is nothing like what real fans love isn't exactly a win.


qPTIoGX.jpg

Making something look like something it's not.  

Personally I think Aquaman's actual characterization could of worked because the mass audience hasn't been introduced to that. But whatever. I'm not opposed to this, just hoping it doesn't effect comic Aquaman.

----------


## Triple J

> Ive already seen it and disagreed with the arguments, but I appreciate the respectful citation of a coherent argument. I don't disagree that the execution wasn't totally successful in conveying the notion, but it's there if you look imo.


Agreed. Execution is where Snyder faltered, but the message is there. Besides, Bruce isn't claiming that Kal was a symbol of hope for everyone. As shown in BvS, he had his fair share of supporters and detractors.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> qPTIoGX.jpg
> 
> Making something look like something it's not.  
> 
> Personally I think Aquaman's actual characterization could of worked because the mass audience hasn't been introduced to that. But whatever. I'm not opposed to this, just hoping it doesn't effect comic Aquaman.


Comic Aquaman does have a beard, and long hair....

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Mass audiences respecting a version of a character that is nothing like what* real* fans love isn't exactly a win.


What defines what a "real" fan is?

We don't have too much of a gauge on his personality thus far anyway. He seems like a cross between the 90s/JLU version and the New 52 one. Mixing and matching things is what adaptations are supposed to do.

----------


## Atlanta96

A real fan is someone who doesn't accept or defend any crap marketed to them.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> Comic Aquaman does have a beard, and long hair....


And "cream betweens" have chocolate cookies with a white filling inside doesn't mean they taste like "oreos".. you missed my point completely somehow.

----------


## Bukdiah

> What version of Aquaman ever came off as a "Rocker" 
> 
> "I dig it!"
> -Riding a Parademon- "Woooo"
> 
> I don't see Aquaman making exclamations like that. I'm reserving my judgment tho.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I always thought Jason Mamoa sounded like a country boy in the trailers. It throws me off a bit lol.

----------


## Assam

> A real fan is someone who doesn't accept or defend any sh*t marketed to them.


I was moreso referring to fans of the "real" Aquaman, AKA the comics version. Mixing and matching from different takes on the character is one thing, but I really don't see any Arthur Curry in the character being presented.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> A real fan is someone who doesn't accept or defend any sh*t marketed to them.


First, that "real fan" has to recognize that "sh*t" as "sh*t." 

Your opinion is not everyone else's opinion. You see "sh*t?" I see "a cool interpretation." And I'm not alone.

----------


## Bukdiah

> More character pics!!


Are you there right now? Never been a con!

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I think I see Cheetah crouching down next to Steppenwolf up there.

Well, I'm content. 




> A real fan is someone who doesn't accept or defend any crap marketed to them.


So you decided it's shit, and so it must be shit that cannot be accepted by anyone?

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> And "cream betweens" have chocolate cookies with a white filling inside doesn't mean they taste like "oreos".. you missed my point completely somehow.


I was referring to your comment about the comic version looking more like the film version.




> Attachment 51944
> 
> Making something look like something it's not.  
> 
> Personally I think Aquaman's actual characterization could of worked because the mass audience hasn't been introduced to that. But whatever. I'm not opposed to this, *just hoping it doesn't effect comic Aquaman.*

----------


## Bukdiah

Guys, that sneak peek is long as hell. Does it ruin a lot of things? I don't even wanna watch, but the hype is real.

----------


## MadFacedKid

Definite "Rock n Roller" I could see music queuing in and him starting to air guitar with the trident

----------


## MadFacedKid

> I was referring to your comment about the comic version looking more like the film version.


Hoping it doesn't effect Comic Aquaman's personality is what I meant, my mistake. They already seemingly changed his appearance in the comics for the movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Guys, that sneak peek is long as hell. Does it ruin a lot of things? I don't even wanna watch, but the hype is real.


I don't think it gives us anything we didn't already know. Cool action beats, but not really plot-specific stuff. You're safe! In my opinion anyway.

----------


## Atlanta96

> First, that "real fan" has to recognize that "sh*t" as "sh*t." 
> 
> Your opinion is not everyone else's opinion. You see "sh*t?" I see "a cool interpretation." And I'm not alone.


Your hyperbolic praise for everything and anything DC does says otherwise.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> First, that "real fan" has to recognize that "sh*t" as "sh*t." 
> 
> Your opinion is not everyone else's opinion. You see "sh*t?" I see "a cool interpretation." *And I'm not alone*.


I'm right there with you. I for one am happy as hell to see something new on the big screen.

----------


## Diammandis



----------


## El_Gato

> Are you there right now? Never been a con!


I wish ahha I got those pics from bleedingcool. 

Im from CA and i've been to San Diego during comic con and its crazy! The city gets taken over by cosplayers, fans...etc. Restaurants, hotels, busses... It's quite a sight to behold! 

Maybe next year i'll go but I heard you have to camp out for the Hall H presentations! And if you leave there's no getting back in lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Your hyperbolic praise for everything and anything DC does says otherwise.


The day DC does something I consider "sh*t" I assure you, you'll hear about it from me.

I'm sorry DC isn't catering all their movies to your tastes and your tastes alone, but the success of these movies so far leads one to think that your tastes are a pretty small minority. DC can't please everyone.

----------


## gbshabo

> I really don't get what their drawing Aquaman's personality from.


I think they are drawing it from the fact that a stoic Arthur curry would bore the typical movie goer to death.  I do see elements of Peter David's aquaman with gruff and grumpy responses. and he did have bits of humor in him during that run.

----------


## El_Gato

> I think I see Cheetah crouching down next to Steppenwolf up there.
> 
> Well, I'm content.


Yup that's Cheetah alright! The right side is pretty much the villains side, apart from Hawkman, Blue Beetle Deadman and Simon Baz. I can't wait to see her in live action!

Also can we knock it off with that "real fan" bull****! It's so damn condescending and comes off as petty imo.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> I think they are drawing it from the fact that a stoic Arthur curry would bore the typical movie goer to death.  I do see elements of Peter David's aquaman with gruff and grumpy responses. and he did have bits of humor in him during that run.


I don't get how a grown man exclaiming "I dig it" comes off as appealing or is suppose to be appealing to other adults but ok

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yup that's Cheetah alright! The right side is pretty much the villains side, apart from Hawkman, Blue Beetle Deadman and Simon Baz. I can't wait to see her in live action!


I can't believe I live in a world where Cheetah being in an anticipated WW sequel is actually a thing. I mean, she's pretty much their only option aside from Circe, but still.

And she actually has a chance to be more universally praised than DCEU Luthor and Joker...

----------


## gwangung

> Also can we knock it off with that "real fan" bull****! It's so damn condescending and comes off as petty imo.


Hell yeah. Same impulse as the "fake girl fan" attitude, directed at someone else.

You'd think people would learn something.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The day DC does something I consider "sh*t" I assure you, you'll hear about it from me.
> 
> I'm sorry DC isn't catering all their movies to your tastes and your tastes alone, but the success of these movies so far leads one to think that your tastes are a pretty small minority. DC can't please everyone.


Quick reminder that BvS underperformed at the box office and was outgrossed by a children's film called the Secret Life of Pets.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't get how a grown man exclaiming "I dig it" comes off as appealing or is suppose to be appealing to other adults but ok


Rockers talk like that all the time. Plenty of adults like rock stars. 

Now if he starts trying to make "I dig it" into a catch phrase, that'll be a different story. Right now? He said it once when offering a backhanded compliment to Batman's fashion sense.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Quick reminder that BvS underperformed at the box office and was outgrossed by a children's film called the Secret Life of Pets.


Quick reminder that it still made profit. Quick reminder that Suicide Squad made even MORE profit. Quick reminder that Wonder Woman is still killing the box office and Rotten Tomatoes reviewers alike. Quick reminder that Wonder Woman is the first movie to reflect the Geoff Johns/Jon Berg leadership of the DCEU, which bodes well for the continued good reception of future DCEU films. 

But hey! Don't listen to me! I'm not a "real fan" remember? Only your opinion counts.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Quick reminder that BvS underperformed at the box office and was outgrossed by a children's film called the Secret Life of Pets.


Well, they are two different demographics. Also, BvS grossed a lot of money considering it's budget of 300 million.

There is no changing someone's mind about things they like and vice versa, man. It's futile. I'm not much of a fan of any of the DCEU movies, but obviously, other people are since they do not flop financially. I am not equating financial success to "quality" of the film though.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> Rockers talk like that all the time. Plenty of adults like rock stars. 
> 
> Now if he starts trying to make "I dig it" into a catch phrase, that'll be a different story. Right now? *He said it once when offering a backhanded compliment to Batman's fashion sense.*


Which is why Im saving my final thoughts for when I actually see the film. Characterization for Aquaman and Flash based off trailers though do have me a bit skeptical is all I'm saying.

----------


## dianafan1985

Why does everyone have to be a part of a huge group to like or dislike something? If I like or dislike something, I honestly could give a flying fig how many others share my opinion. I am capable as a grown person to think independently. 

Just my two cents.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Quick reminder that BvS underperformed at the box office and was outgrossed by a children's film called the Secret Life of Pets.


Is there a point to this? The Secret Life of Pets was allowed to stay in theaters for 6 whole months (July to December), so it could keep bringing in money for Universal after their Warcraft film flopped hard at the BO. Hell, TSLOP was released on digital and dvd in November and remained in theaters for a whole other month. In fact, most kids movies outgrossed BvS last year. Finding Dory, Zootopia, and The Jungle Book. BvS and Suicide Squad still made it into the top 10 highest grossing films of 2016. 2016, which was dominated by Disney (CACW, Dory, Zootopia, Jungle Book, Rogue One). Along with Fantastic Beasts, WB had 3 movies in the top 10.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> Why does everyone have to be a part of a huge group to like or dislike something? If I like or dislike something, I honestly could give a flying fig how many others share my opinion. I am capable as a grown person to think independently. 
> 
> Just my two cents.


Whose to say anyone is bandwagoning? What if people just like or dislike something and others tend to agree one way or another. That's not being dependent on anyone's thoughts that's sharing an opinion.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Whose to say anyone is bandwagoning? What if people just like or dislike something and others tend to agree one way or another. That's not being dependent on anyone's thoughts that's sharing an opinion.


Well, there's "sharing an opinion" and then there's "my opinion is the only opinion and if you don't agree with me, you're wrong/bad/whatever."

----------


## gwangung

> Whose to say anyone is bandwagoning?


Well, when you have people talking about "true fans", there's always a chance for bandwagoning.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Mass audiences respecting a version of a character that is nothing like what real fans love isn't exactly a win.


Welcome to comic book movies they've been doing this for ages.

----------


## Rogue Star

After watching the trailer again, I can tell that it's definitely Superman at the end. That's cool. Would have loved Nightwing.

----------


## MadFacedKid

Meh, I'd call that passionate dislike for something. But I could see how that could bridge people and place them in categories.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Meh, I'd call that passionate dislike for something. But I could see how that could bridge people and place them in categories.


You don't get much more categorical then dividing a massive group of people into "People Who Agree With Me" and "Fake Fans."

----------


## Sirzechs

Me as a fake fan enjoying this version of Aqua man on opening weekend then going back to reading other versions:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Me as a fake fan enjoying this version of Aqua man on opening weekend then going back to reading other versions:


Shut up, Fake Fan! You are supposed to hate anything that doesn't fit my narrow view of what Aquaman is! HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


 :Smile:

----------


## Black_Adam

You know it's cool if you don't like something and you want to voice your opinion about it, but when you say stuff like "real fans blah blah" no, no your not a real fan at all. Your just being utterly obnoxious and condescending and I sure hope you people aren't grown ass adults with statements like that...

Anyway trailer was dope as hell, much better music choice this time around. And loving what they have shown from Steppenwolf so far and the way they have handled Superman's absence is perfect.

Been waiting 15 years for a Justice League movie but hey I'm a fake fan, I dig it!

----------


## Punisher007

^Exactly, 100%.

----------


## Troian

I think flashpoint will Be flashpoint in name only. No way are they gonna show WW and Aquaman as total tyrants and show graphic scenes like Revese Flash and Steve Trevor's death so nonchalantly. 

Anyways is that Kara in the trailer? So hyped now.

----------


## Flash Fan #1

I loved this trailer. Absolutely loved it. 

That little snippet where Miller's Flash helps Wonder Woman with her sword was awesome, too.

And Gadot, man, damn. She looks so good as Diana in action. Yeah, I got a thing for Gadot, lol.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I loved this trailer. Absolutely loved it. 
> 
> That little snippet where Miller's Flash helps Wonder Woman with her sword was awesome, too.
> 
> And Gadot, man, damn. She looks so good as Diana in action. Yeah, I got a thing for Gadot, lol.


Many a men have fallen for Gal lol

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I loved this trailer. Absolutely loved it. 
> 
> That little snippet where Miller's Flash helps Wonder Woman with her sword was awesome, too.
> 
> And Gadot, man, damn. She looks so good as Diana in action. Yeah, I got a thing for Gadot, lol.


I thought that little sword bit was really awesome. These super powered beings having a kind of chemistry in combat is important to capture, I think. Him using his finger to break glass is also genius, it makes perfect sense but I never thought of it.

----------


## JediKage

Well F = M*a so make sense when you can move as fast as the Flash you don't need much mass.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Well F = M*a so make sense when you can move as fast as the Flash you don't need much mass.


That's right. I remember applying everything I learned in physics class to the Flash lol

----------


## Bukdiah

> That's right. I remember applying everything I learned in physics class to the Flash lol


Then you realize how absurd Flash's physics are lol

----------


## Flash Fan #1

> These super powered beings having a kind of chemistry in combat is important to capture, I think. Him using his finger to break glass is also genius, it makes perfect sense but I never thought of it.


I agree with you on that, my friend.

----------


## MosSuperman

That was an awesome trailer. I loved that they used Superman's theme. I think Amazons vs parademons war is going to be a highlight for me.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

There's too much arguing going on in here on a day where DC looked great and we got most everything we wanted out of the day (minus a MOS2 confirmation...but that will come after Nov.  :Smile: )

----------


## Bukdiah

Wasn't giggling with excitement over the trailer. I do hope the slow motion is toned down a bit. Some of the CGI looks rough. Seems like a very basic story, so I'm hoping the character interactions are at least entertaining. Aquaman looks like he's gonna be the breakout star. I'm still not a fan of Ezra Miller as Flash, but we'll see how he is in the whole movie.

----------


## Troian

Honestly I hope in the final cut he turns down some of his noobish, fanboyish behaviour that we see now. 

I'm hyped. A basic story is good for DC right now because they're attempts at being "deeper and edgy" (MoS and BvS) had mixed-negative results. Anyways, you gotta wonder with all the cgi and green screen that goes on in these "live action" flicks why cgi/motion captured humans (not aliens or monsters) aren't more of a thing on the big screen.

----------


## Troian

Sorry to open a new can of worms but On the topic of equality or race, I never understood why the casting of Gal Gadot didn't make any major headlines on how she is the first Middle Eastern woman to headline a big budget superhero film. 

On topic, but I'll say it again, I hope that's a Kara Easter egg/hint in the trailer.

----------


## Caivu

Another possibility of who might be in that last scene.

Screenshot_20170722-223449.jpg

IMG_20170722_223506.jpg

----------


## Rogue Star

I can see the red of Superman's cape in the lower left edge of the video.

----------


## Triple J

> Another possibility of who might be in that last scene.
> 
> Screenshot_20170722-223449.jpg
> 
> IMG_20170722_223506.jpg


That would be a major troll move...wouldn't make much sense though :P

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I can see the red of Superman's cape in the lower left edge of the video.


Yep. The red, Alfred's word choice and emphasis on "hope"...I think it's pretty definitely Kal.

----------


## harashkupo

I don't know if it was mentioned but was there supposed to be an Aquaman trailer today?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I don't know if it was mentioned but was there supposed to be an Aquaman trailer today?


There was a sneak peak shown at Hall H, but it has not been released to the general public.

----------


## Rogue Star

I was looking for it. It seems like they're holding back just like Marvel is with that Infinity War trailer.  The latter has me ticked off though because I stayed up till 1... almost 2 am now waiting, HOPING to see SOMETHING. People can talk about the trailers online but *we can't see them*? WHY NOT???  Going to bed pretty mad about it!!!

----------


## harashkupo

> There was a sneak peak shown at Hall H, but it has not been released to the general public.


Thanks




> I was looking for it. It seems like they're holding back just like Marvel is with that Infinity War trailer.  The latter has me ticked off though because I stayed up till 1... almost 2 am now waiting, HOPING to see SOMETHING. People can talk about the trailers online but *we can't see them*? WHY NOT???  Going to bed pretty mad about it!!!


Yeah I was looking forward to this the most

----------


## BatmanJones

> Honestly I hope in the final cut he turns down some of his noobish, fanboyish behaviour that we see now. 
> 
> I'm hyped. A basic story is good for DC right now because they're attempts at being "deeper and edgy" (MoS and BvS) had mixed-negative results.


From someone that had a real problem with BvS and MoS and the tone of the films in particular, my issue wasn't that they were deep. It was that they felt shallow, like they were pretending at depth.

I think it's silly to post IMO really ever since my posts are obviously only my opinion (who's else would they be?) but in the interest of not upsetting people that felt differently than I did, IMO.

I _wish_ I found Man of Steel or Batman vs. Superman to be "deep." I wish they were deep more than anything.

That's one of the problems of understanding between competing opinions about those films; I'm not aware of anyone complaining they were "deep." That's a straw man argument. People that didn't like them didn't find them deep; we found them pretentious.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

http://screenrant.com/dwayne-johnson...m-geoff-johns/

What do y'all think of this?

----------


## batnbreakfast

My biggest problems with the JL trailer were the lack of Bohemian Rhapsody and Immigrant song and Gal doing her one move in every trailer she's in. I'm not down for the big spectacles (like JL) and more looking forward to the "small" DCEU movies, hopefully more character driven and interesting. I liked the last JL trailer, the one from yesterday not as much. As always, yay Alfred, though.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I was looking for it. It seems like they're holding back just like Marvel is with that Infinity War trailer.  The latter has me ticked off though because I stayed up till 1... almost 2 am now waiting, HOPING to see SOMETHING. People can talk about the trailers online but *we can't see them*? WHY NOT???  Going to bed pretty mad about it!!!


It's kinda ridiculous, because the leaked video looks damn good enough to release. Aquaman, tho, is still 17 months away.

----------


## Starchild

> http://screenrant.com/dwayne-johnson...m-geoff-johns/
> 
> What do y'all think of this?


Pretty disappointing. I can't imagine them using Sivana, he's just like Luthor. Hopefully they'll use Mr Mind or Sabbac.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't get how a grown man exclaiming "I dig it" comes off as appealing or is suppose to be appealing to other adults but ok


He's a surfer dude/rocker type, let it be.

----------


## Black_Adam

So about that updated slate it does seem like Shazam and Suicide Squad 2 will be the next movies to go into production then after that probably The Batman and maybe Flashpoint or Batgirl.

Geoff Johns said in an interview that  Whedon starts Batgirl next year though I think meant he starts working on the script surely they won't begin production so soon.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

The only thing I want out of DCEU movies are for the movies to stop taking themselves so seriously. I'm not talking about happy-fun-times or jokes, but more-so slice of life moments seamlessly intertwined into the story as opposed to shoehorned in moments. Off the top of my head example: In BvS, when Clark is in the kitchen cooking and watching the news about Batman. I'd rather we see him actually cooking in the kitchen, digest the news, Lois coming in and while cooking having the same convo they had in the bathroom through the context of the news and even meal prep. The bar scene in SS was the best part of that film because of this very thing.

Also...whenever Superman makes his entrance in JL, it better be epic. And with Superman Theme.

Also #2...Affleck's plastic surgery makes him look even more like Ed Burns, so just replace him already.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Also...whenever Superman makes his entrance in JL, it better be epic. And with Superman Theme.
> 
> Also #2...Affleck's plastic surgery makes him look even more like Ed Burns, so just replace him already.


If you mean the Donner theme, they're not gonna put it back into the movies. At absolute most, Elfman might do something like an homage to it but they're gonna stick with Zimmer's.

Affleck's not leaving.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If you mean the Donner theme, they're not gonna put it back into the movies. At absolute most, Elfman might do something like an homage to it but they're gonna stick with Zimmer's.


Yep and, IMO, as it should be.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Sigh. Why does all DC news always revert back to same crappy arguments and always circle back to BvS. For as much as people "dislike" the film they can't let it go.

Also amazes me how in 2017 people are still using this "true fan" nonsense.

----------


## dianafan1985

> The only thing I want out of DCEU movies are for the movies to stop taking themselves so seriously. I'm not talking about happy-fun-times or jokes, but more-so slice of life moments seamlessly intertwined into the story as opposed to shoehorned in moments. Off the top of my head example: In BvS, when Clark is in the kitchen cooking and watching the news about Batman. I'd rather we see him actually cooking in the kitchen, digest the news, Lois coming in and while cooking having the same convo they had in the bathroom through the context of the news and even meal prep. The bar scene in SS was the best part of that film because of this very thing.
> 
> Also...whenever Superman makes his entrance in JL, it better be epic. And with Superman Theme.
> 
> *Also #2...Affleck's plastic surgery makes him look even more like Ed Burns, so just replace him already.*


Affleck is perfect in the role. So perfect for me that I can't picture anybody else in that role, even though I have seen so many others cast over the past 28 years.

And like ekrolo2 said, the Donner theme will not (and should not) be used in the DCEU. It should remain buried as things have to progress and evolve, and this is an entirely different version of Superman, with his own unique theme.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Yep and, IMO, as it should be.


Zimmers theme is like MILES better anyway...!

----------


## sifighter

> More character pics!!


I'd really hope that this is in someway an indication of the movies DC wants to make and not just some really cool art work they wanted to show off.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

> If you mean the Donner theme, they're not gonna put it back into the movies. At absolute most, Elfman might do something like an homage to it but they're gonna stick with Zimmer's.
> 
> Affleck's not leaving.


Williams/Zimmer. Doesn't matter. It's the same song - same chord progression, different arrangement. Just like how the WW theme is the same as the 70s one. Elfman is totally going to work in his own Batman theme. Spidey, X-Men - embracing the properties' iconic themes and arranging them to fit tone is a good thing.

I like Affleck fine. I'm just confident that he's done (regardless of his checklist comments).

----------


## Carabas

> Williams/Zimmer. Doesn't matter. It's the same song - same chord progression, different arrangement. Just like how the WW theme is the same as the 70s one. Elfman is totally going to work in his own Batman theme. Spidey, X-Men - embracing the properties' iconic themes and arranging them to fit tone is a good thing.
> 
> I like Affleck fine. I'm just confident that he's done (regardless of his checklist comments).


If it were the same theme then John Williams would be credited for it instead of Zimmer.

These two themes are not even remotely similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9vrfEoc8_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX3coWDnTrU

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I think flashpoint will Be flashpoint in name only. No way are they gonna show WW and Aquaman as total tyrants and show graphic scenes like Revese Flash and Steve Trevor's death so nonchalantly. 
> 
> Anyways is that Kara in the trailer? So hyped now.


I'm not so sure about Flashpoint, a lot of things add up pretty well for the comic book version of it. They'll probably have Barry Allen's dead mom and Reverse Flash established from the first Flash movie, Wonder Woman and (probably) Aquaman will be popular and well enough set up to make their war a hook in itself, I'm sure Geoff Johns would love to adapt his own story, and you just know that studio execs would love to put Thomas Wayne Batman (also already established in BvS!) on screen. Lastly, it would allow Johns and Berg to get a clean slate for their vision for these movies instead of having to dance around stuff already established by other people in previous, less than popular films.

----------


## Jaddor

Trailer 2 is here, Should we be worried about every word that comes out of Barry Allen's mouth.

----------


## Pinsir

So apparently Whedon has been messing around with Snyder's colour palette, at a time when Marvel is beginning to ape his style too! (Thor: Ragnarok)

----------


## dietrich

> My biggest problems with the JL trailer were the lack of Bohemian Rhapsody and Immigrant song and Gal doing her one move in every trailer she's in. I'm not down for the big spectacles (like JL) and more looking forward to the "small" DCEU movies, hopefully more character driven and interesting. I liked the last JL trailer, the one from yesterday not as much. As always, yay Alfred, though.


I noticed the slow mo Wondie leg sweep too. Her signature look.
Aquaman was the best thing in the trailer for me.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

> If it were the same theme then John Williams would be credited for it instead of Zimmer.
> 
> These two themes are not even remotely similar:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9vrfEoc8_g
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX3coWDnTrU


They never credited the original Spidey theme nor X-Men:AS theme. No need...because the ARRANGEMENT is different. They're the same song. Find me any graduate of Juliard or Berklee who will say otherwise. 

You can arrange any country song and make it rap/r&b (not hip-hop) and vice versa - always garbage.

The first four bars of brass in Williams' theme is the chord progression used in Zimmer's. The bass line for 70s WW is the basis for WW 2017.

ETA: Geezus. I see that one can even find youtube vids overlapping (though, with difficulty as tempo/pitch/key differ) the themes to show it.

----------


## ekrolo2

> So apparently Whedon has been messing around with Snyder's colour palette, at a time when Marvel is beginning to ape his style too! (Thor: Ragnarok)


Glad I'm not the only one who noticed how Snyder the Valkyrie flashback stuff looks.

----------


## dietrich

> More character pics!!


This is the best quality of this new intro I've seen now I just wish there was a version same quality showing the whole thing.

----------


## Rogue Star

> *I'd really hope that this is in someway an indication of the movies DC wants to make* and not just some really cool art work they wanted to show off.


I think that's the intent.

----------


## Johnny

"Pfft, you little boys can't handle this much woman".  :Smile:

----------


## Carabas

> So apparently Whedon has been messing around with Snyder's colour palette, at a time when Marvel is beginning to ape his style too! (Thor: Ragnarok)


Snyder has a what now?

----------


## dianafan1985

> "Pfft, you little boys can't handle this much woman".


Gal is beautiful but I was more into this guy:

42972B9400000578-0-Wearing_a_white_linen_shirt_a_pair_of_bone_coloured_pants_and_an-m-32_1500763.jpg

----------


## Styles

> "Pfft, you little boys can't handle this much woman".

----------


## Lightning Rider

Wonder Thigh.

----------


## Jaddor

> Wonder Thigh.


Did you see that shot of Gal in pants and a red jacket. I wish she would bulk up a bit.

----------


## yohyoi

> Wonder Thigh.


Indeed. Gal got them Wonder Thighs.

----------


## Frontier

> "Pfft, you little boys can't handle this much woman".


It's true  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Also, in another life, Gal would probably have been an amazing Catwoman...

----------


## rui no onna

Gonna have to go for the adorable nerd in Fullmetal Alchemist cosplay.  :Big Grin:

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Gonna have to go for the adorable nerd in Fullmetal Alchemist cosplay.


I wondering what the hell he was wearing...

----------


## rui no onna

> I wondering what the hell he was wearing...


Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Now that we've seen the trailer...chances Supes is evil at all?

----------


## Frontier

> Gonna have to go for the adorable nerd in Fullmetal Alchemist cosplay.


Ezra Miler may not be my ideal Barry Allen, but he's won me over on this alone  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I see that guy giving him the side-eye...

----------


## yohyoi

> Ezra Miler may not be my ideal Barry Allen, but he's won me over on this alone .
> 
> I see that guy giving him the side-eye...


He's more of a Wally. That's definitely something Wally would do.

----------


## Frontier

> He's more of a Wally. That's definitely something Wally would do.


I don't disagree...

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Now that we've seen the trailer...chances Supes is evil at all?


Highly doubtful that he's evil. From Alfred's response to him, it seems like he knew to expect his arrival and to expect him to be there to help.

IF he has any conflict with the League, it'll either be a very brief skirmish during which he was either briefly mind controlled or he simply woke up kind of confused and lashed out at the League, believing them to be his enemies. 

Either way, it won't be any significant portion of the movie and it will likely culminate in him swooping in to save the day at the end.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I wonder how he's going to be brought back though. That needs to be addressed with a subplot. He can't just show up. But I trust they have a way.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Also are we not getting a black suit? I really, really want there to be a black suit. He doesn't have to be evil for that. Please.

----------


## Frontier

> Also are we not getting a black suit? I really, really want there to be a black suit. He doesn't have to be evil for that. Please.


I think Snyder already confirmed we'd be seeing the black suit in some form.

----------


## Troian

Thank goodness there was no pressure to dye his hair blonde. That pic confirms that Ezra would look horrible as a bleached blonde.

----------


## gwangung

> "Pfft, you little boys can't handle this much woman".


Yes, this is true. And no debate about it...

----------


## Carabas

> I think Snyder already confirmed we'd be seeing the black suit in some form.


Of course, because what this franchise needs is even less colour.

----------


## Dominick1216

So I presume these will be the films for 2019?:

-Shazam (Spring)
-Suicide Squad 2 (Summer)
-The Batman (Fall)

----------


## dianafan1985

> Of course, because what this franchise needs is even less colour.


Hahaha. Indeed.

----------


## Agent Z

> Of course, because what this franchise needs is even less colour.


I really do not get the issues with the grey tint. Snyder's not the first person to use it

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yes, this is true. And no debate about it...


I wouldn't even think of debating that issue.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Desean101101

> So I presume these will be the films for 2019?:
> 
> -Shazam (Spring)
> -Suicide Squad 2 (Summer)
> -The Batman (Fall)


Add Batgirl or Sirens to that list

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I really do not get the issues with the grey tint. Snyder's not the first person to use it


I remember when some fans went in and edited it to "fix" the color and it looked like shit.

I liked the washed out look to MoS. It fit the "first contact" sci-fi feel of the film really well.

----------


## Random killer x

For all the crap DC got, especially Batman V. Superman. Look at Marvel's flagship character in his first solo movie since moving to the MCU. It looks like Spider-Man won't make $300 million or just barely crossing the mark, and well behind the likes of BVS or even the lesser known Suicide Squad. Not even Iron Man and his mega marketing push could help it. I know of course it's still a success. However, it is not what Sony and Disney were expecting. I'm sure this is a wake up call for Marvel now

----------


## Rogue Star

> For all the crap DC got, especially Batman V. Superman. Look at Marvel's flagship character in his first solo movie since moving to the MCU. It looks like Spider-Man won't make $300 million or just barely crossing the mark, and well behind the likes of BVS or even the lesser known Suicide Squad. Not even Iron Man and his mega marketing push could help it. I know of course it's still a success. However, it is not what Sony and Disney were expecting. I'm sure this is a wake up call for Marvel now


Yeah but at this point in the game what can they do? They have to keep chugging along.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Zimmers theme is like MILES better anyway...!


I agree. And I grew up with the Williams one.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I agree. And I grew up with the Williams one.


Probably in a tiny minority, but my favorite is the one from _The Adventures of Superman_.  :Smile:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> For all the crap DC got, especially Batman V. Superman. Look at Marvel's flagship character in his first solo movie since moving to the MCU. It looks like Spider-Man won't make $300 million or just barely crossing the mark, and well behind the likes of BVS or even the lesser known Suicide Squad. Not even Iron Man and his mega marketing push could help it. I know of course it's still a success. However, it is not what Sony and Disney were expecting. I'm sure this is a wake up call for Marvel now


Someone here mentioned Spider-Man fatigue and he/she might be right. The movie had everything, yet it looks like it will wind up in the same financial neighborhood with the first Spidey film from Sony.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> For all the crap DC got, especially Batman V. Superman. Look at Marvel's flagship character in his first solo movie since moving to the MCU. It looks like Spider-Man won't make $300 million or just barely crossing the mark, and well behind the likes of BVS or even the lesser known Suicide Squad. Not even Iron Man and his mega marketing push could help it. I know of course it's still a success. However, it is not what Sony and Disney were expecting. I'm sure this is a wake up call for Marvel now


This will have been the sixth outing of Spider-man. While Spider-man remains as popular for the company as it has ever been, the franchise has experienced fatigue in the following years by its audience. This fatigue largely comes from the disappointing ending to the Raimi trilogy, and the attempts to quickly build out a cinematic universe to compete with Marvel by throwing everything into one film (Amazing Spider-man 2). A move not unlike what DC/Warner Brothers actually did when creating Batman Versus Superman to push Justice League out the door. Spider-man: Homecoming also does not use Iron man in the film near as much as what the trailers would lead one to believe. I wont post spoilers but Tony Stark's presence in this film is for the most part what one sees in the trailer. Iron man is here largely for story reasons (he is the one who recruits Spider-man), and for that matter is also here for marketing due to the fact that Iron man is indeed a trusted brand the public will follow and thus serves as a gateway for the audience. Otherwise the franchise is here for a course correction and not anything to do with making money (at least in it's entirety), as part of the reason for the Sony deal was how Sony didn't know what to do with the franchise and thus was losing its audience and by extension money (3 critically declining films prior to this that progressively lost money).

This is not a "wake up call" for Marvel, as Marvel and Sony did exactly what they set out to do, and that is restore faith in it's brand. The Spider-man movie brand has been received positively again and that is all Sony and Marvel truly need, the Spider-man brand has nothing to compete with either within Marvel or DC so it only needs to make money on its own. Spider-man: Homecoming, at the end of the day will make money and really only have to restore the good will of its audience. Not to mention that this movie was also released 17 days ago at the time of this reply and is reaching what BVS did within a fraction of that time domestically (BVS also ran for 84 days and Spider-man is still going). It's a little too early to be calling any sort of victory but the franchise is overall doing fine.

----------


## Troian

> For all the crap DC got, especially Batman V. Superman. Look at Marvel's flagship character in his first solo movie since moving to the MCU. It looks like Spider-Man won't make $300 million or just barely crossing the mark, and well behind the likes of BVS or even the lesser known Suicide Squad. Not even Iron Man and his mega marketing push could help it. I know of course it's still a success. However, it is not what Sony and Disney were expecting. I'm sure this is a wake up call for Marvel now


This is the third time Spidey will start off as a high schooler in the last decade and a half. The Fatigue is real lol. If they wanted to do well, they should have stopped after 2007, then waited 10 years and market the film as the first time Spidey comes back in a decade. If it got rave reviews, maybe start off Spidey in college and maybe the MCU could have a gotten involved the hype would have been insane. And an August release because August is like competitionless. Just look at Star Wars and the Juarssic World franchises. 

Rewatching the trailer, I know I'm probably not gonna like Atlantis but who knows lol.

----------


## Bukdiah

God damn, Gal is thicker than my accent

----------


## FlashEarthOne

I really hoped that they would have announced a Flashpoint release date and director.  It really feels like it should be a priority.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> So I presume these will be the films for 2019?:
> 
> -Shazam (Spring)
> -Suicide Squad 2 (Summer)
> -The Batman (Fall)


Seems accurate. Probably the following year will be. 

Flashpoint (Spring) 

Wonder Woman 2 (Summer)

Green Lantern Corps (Fall)

Glad to see DC is moving forward with a WW sequel and Green Lantern. Can't say I'm too happy about Man of Steel 2 being shelved yet again, Superman deserves better. Any chance it could end up replacing Suicide Squad 2? xD  

The less I say about this _Flashpoint_ , the better.

----------


## Dominick1216

> Seems accurate. Probably the following year will be. 
> 
> Flashpoint (Spring) 
> 
> Wonder Woman 2 (Summer)
> 
> Green Lantern Corps (Fall)
> 
> Glad to see DC is moving forward with a WW sequel and Green Lantern. Can't say I'm too happy about Man of Steel 2 being shelved yet again, Superman deserves better. Any chance it could end up replacing Suicide Squad 2? xD  
> ...


I actually believe they are doing a Man of Steel 2. But because of the whole keeping Superman a secret thing, they wouldn't announce it at the panel yesterday. Hell, even Henry Cavill wasn't there lol. I think that once Justice League is released, they'll announce a Man of Steel 2.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I actually believe they are doing a Man of Steel 2. But because of the whole keeping Superman a secret thing, they wouldn't announce it at the panel yesterday. Hell, even Henry Cavill wasn't there lol. I think that once Justice League is released, they'll announce a Man of Steel 2.


I agree. As long as they're trying to maintain the illusion (however flimsy) that Superman is dead, they can't announce MOS 2 or any other project that may involve Superman. Once JL comes out, all bets are off at that point.

----------


## Starchild

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/john-k...am-city-sirens

Thoughts?

----------


## Colossus1980

Seems like WB wasted 2018 by only having one movie come out.  They better start picking up the pace because they have too many movies in the works with only a small amount for scheduled releases.  With this rate it's going to take forever for JL 2.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/john-k...am-city-sirens
> 
> Thoughts?


First reaction is that DCEU Leaks is a VERY unreliable source. They've been wrong far more often than they've been right. Heck I'm not sure they've EVER been right.

If it's true? I love the Birds of Prey and it sounds like a pretty good story setup. Not sure I like all the character changes. Ivy better have her powers, for one. But I could learn to like a lot of it.

Conclusion? I doubt it's legit, but it could be interesting if it is.

----------


## Johnny

"Cosmicbooknews" LOL.

----------


## Colossus1980

> For all the crap DC got, especially Batman V. Superman. Look at Marvel's flagship character in his first solo movie since moving to the MCU. It looks like Spider-Man won't make $300 million or just barely crossing the mark, and well behind the likes of BVS or even the lesser known Suicide Squad. Not even Iron Man and his mega marketing push could help it. I know of course it's still a success. However, it is not what Sony and Disney were expecting. I'm sure this is a wake up call for Marvel now


Homecoming would probably have made over 400M+ if this was the first ever Spider-Man movie.  People are tired of Spidey in that it's the 6th movie in 15 years.  Spider-fatigue.  Plus with it being set in high school for the entire movie probably turned off a lot of potential ticket buyers.  I enjoyed it but then I'm a comic book fan.

----------


## FishyZombie

> http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/john-k...am-city-sirens
> 
> Thoughts?


Dunno about Krasinski as Ollie, think he's always gonna be Jim from the Office to me.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

I've actively turned off Cosmic Book News and Comic Book Movie as sources to ever show up in Google News a looooooong time ago. They're the worst.

----------


## Robotman

> http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/john-k...am-city-sirens
> 
> Thoughts?


Always taking these rumors with a grain of salt, but if that's really what Ayer wanted then I'm happy WB (most likely Geoff Johns) is putting their foot down. Just trust the source material! Suicide Squad was pretty horrible so I wouldn't be mad if he parts ways with the DCEU. I would be worried about Margot Robbie bailing as her and Ayer are supposedly friends. 
Krasinski would be fine as Ollie. He was in contention to play Captain America. So it's not the first time he's been connected to the world of superheroes. And we could finally see an Ollie closer to the comic book version and not just Batman-light like Arrow.




> Seems like WB wasted 2018 by only having one movie come out.  They better start picking up the pace because they have too many movies in the works with only a small amount for scheduled releases.  With this rate it's going to take forever for JL 2.


That's how I feel. They seem to have a ton of stuff planned but don't have a single movie being released next summer. Aquaman isn't schedule to be released until winter 2018. Marvel will once again rule the summer movie season with Infinity War. Not to mention Black Panther and Fox's Deadpool 2.

----------


## Starchild

I don't see why WB can't do things THEIR way. They shouldn't be looking at what every other studio is doing. If they only want to release one movie next year, so be it.

----------


## Robotman

Just noticed that when Alfred is talking to our mystery person at the end he kind of nods and looks at the person's chest as he says the word "hope".

----------


## Flash Fan #1

Alfred's gotta be talking to Clark. I'm sure of it. 

And when Cavill shows up, it needs to be on a skale that's deserving of Superman. I'm talking an epic entrance that we'll never forget.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/john-k...am-city-sirens
> 
> Thoughts?


I dont buy all the BOP and casting info but those supposed changes by Ayer dont surprise me at all nor does him wanting everyone to be Robbie's sidekick or a Catwoman whose age was closer to Harley than Batman.

----------


## Naked Bat

I've been on board for JL since day one. I liked the first trailer. But I'm digging this one (I'm an adult and I'm using this, so sue me), because it feels more than avengers at night. It feels like it's really its own thing. It's definitely a snyder movie, albeit with more light, a more hopeful tone. There is a great sense of balance imo, and the visuals are unique. I'm sure the action will be amazing as well. I really like what I'm seeing and hearing of Steppenwolf so far and I love that they are just teasing Supes return.

----------


## Black_Adam

Don't wanna start some DC vs Marvel, but watching multiple copies of the Infinity War trailer I was not really that impressed with Thanos. Looking weird as hell without the helmet showing his huge ass purple head, plus he had the typical generic bad guy monologue. I got burnt already with Ultron when the AoU trailers made him out like the Shakespeare of villains.

I found Steppenwolf in a few words and shots much more impactful, like his "bad guy speech" felt grounded and real with the Lanterns and Kryptonian line and hinting at the fact Apokolips had been doing this for a _very_ long time. Plus every time he moved he looked powerful, think it was the Collider guys who said he is basically what Ares should of fought like in WW.

I dunno maybe when I see the full HD version of the IW trailer I'll warm to Thanos or maybe it's just my DC shill. Just found it weird because I actually quite like Thanos and I don't think I've ever really given 2 thoughts to Steppenwolf, like ever?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I've been on board for JL since day one. I liked the first trailer. But I'm digging this one (I'm an adult and I'm using this, so sue me), because* it feels more than avengers at night*. It feels like it's really its own thing. It's definitely a snyder movie, albeit with more light, a more hopeful tone. There is a great sense of balance imo, and the visuals are unique. I'm sure the action will be amazing as well. I really like what I'm seeing and hearing of Steppenwolf so far and I love that they are just teasing Supes return.


Yeah I agree, there's simply more here that makes it stand apart visually, thematically, and even story-wise.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Don't wanna start some DC vs Marvel, but watching multiple copies of the Infinity War trailer I was not really that impressed with Thanos. Looking weird as hell without the helmet showing his huge ass purple head, plus he had the typical generic bad guy monologue. I got burnt already with Ultron when the AoU trailers made him out like the Shakespeare of villains.
> 
> I found Steppenwolf in a few words and shots much more impactful, like his "bad guy speech" felt grounded and real with the Lanterns and Kryptonian line and hinting at the fact Apokolips had been doing this for a _very_ long time. Plus every time he moved he looked powerful, think it was the Collider guys who said he is basically what Ares should of fought like in WW.
> 
> I dunno maybe when I see the full HD version of the IW trailer I'll warm to Thanos or maybe it's just my DC shill. Just found it weird because I actually quite like Thanos and I don't think I've ever really given 2 thoughts to Steppenwolf, like ever?


I actually agree. I don't know why Thanos isn't wearing his helmet, but he looks seriously goofy without it. 

Steppenwolf on the other hand? Yeah, he looks like a seriously intimidating badass. We haven't even seen a true "full frontal" shot of him yet and you can just tell that he is NOT to be effed with. 

Now, I'm sure Thanos will end up looking better in Infinity War, but my first reaction to him definitely isn't as strong as my first reaction to Steppenwolf. Thanos appeared much more intimidating in his appearance in Guardians of the Galaxy.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Seems like WB wasted 2018 by only having one movie come out.  They better start picking up the pace because they have too many movies in the works with only a small amount for scheduled releases.  With this rate it's going to take forever for JL 2.


Well since AM comes out in Dec, it will be well over a year between that and JL... I agree where in the hell is JL 2 gonna fit? Poor planning and too many movies, SS 2 is not even necessary I am sure we all can wait a while for that.

----------


## ekrolo2

The main edge I give JL over Infinity War already is the fact JL, despite predominately being a big spectacle piece, seems to have something to say about Superman's importance to the world ideologically and physically and how the JL can try and possibly fail to compensate for his absence.

Infinity War is just gonna be two hours of action figures being smashed against one another. I seriously doubt they're gonna make that with anything but fanservice to the max in mind. Not that Marvel hasn't earned a big dumb action figure slug fest movie but as someone who's not super invested in the MCU, there's not much of a fan in me for the fan service to sway.

----------


## MosSuperman

It would be cool if that hologram is Supergirl as a after credit scene. It would tie in nicely with Darksied's invasion for JL 2 or 3 while also adding story elements from Superman/Batman Apocalypse.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It would be cool if that hologram is Supergirl as a after credit scene. It would tie in nicely with Darksied's invasion for JL 2 or 3 while also adding story elements from Superman/Batman Apocalypse.


That would be cool. If it is Supergirl I would guess that Bruce is looking through Lex's data drive or remnants of the Kryptonian ship and looking at holograms of stored information about the House of El and Krypton and such.

----------


## Confuzzled

Those David Ayer/Gotham City Sirens rumors are fake lol. Ayer spoke about Gotham City Sirens at Comic Con over the weekend and mentioned how he's doing it for his daughters, so that puts the kibosh on that "He's bitter because he's been fired" talk immediately. Also, people who were at the DCEU panel said Poison Ivy and Robin appeared on screen when they mentioned the _Batgirl_ movie. If that's true then Ivy would appear in Batgirl first, meaning it would be Whedon who'd cast and interpret the DCEU's take on her, not Ayer.

I wouldn't be surprised if Selina is also pre-established in the DCEU before _Sirens_ (The Batman being the most logical bet, meaning Matt Reeves gets to pick her actress and create her DCEU counterpart).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Those David Ayer/Gotham City Sirens rumors are fake lol. Ayer spoke about Gotham City Sirens at Comic Con over the weekend and mentioned how he's doing it for his daughters, so that puts the kibosh on that "He's bitter because he's been fired" talk immediately. Also, people who were at the DCEU panel said Poison Ivy and Robin appeared on screen when they mentioned the _Batgirl_ movie. If that's true then Ivy would appear in Batgirl first, meaning it would be Whedon who'd cast and interpret the DCEU's take on her, not Ayer.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Selina is also pre-established in the DCEU before _Sirens_ (The Batman being the most logical bet, meaning Matt Reeves gets to pick her actress and create her DCEU counterpart).


Probably better that way.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I'm taking the Sirens rumor with a massive bag of salt, let alone a grain lol 

Ayer said at the con 2 years ago (or was it last year?) that "DC has the COOLEST F#%#% villains in the world!" and went on to praise them. I'm not sure he would want to change up Ivy & Selina to such an extreme...but I suppose anything is possible. However, isn't Sirens the project Robbie pitched to WB? I remember reports after SS came out that she had a story idea, and was going to be producing it and everything. It was kind of "her baby", so to speak, and Ayer became attached after. Unless I'm making this up lol Robbie said she loves the part and would play Harley forever if DC allows her to...considering she was the breakout star of SS, I just don't see WB scrapping it entirely. Folding it all in to a Birds of Prey movie is a possibility, but I would bet what Robbie wants, Robbie will get. 

As far as the casting rumors, I've said for a while that I don't care if Ivy is Harley's age, but I definitely want a Catwoman closer to Batman's. Batman has been active for 20 years, so I think we should get a CW who has a lot of history with him. My vote would go to Lana Parilla; she's 40 years old and sexy as hell. She currently plays the Evil Queen on that Once Upon a Time tv show. I think she could pull off a wonderful older Catwoman.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> As far as the casting rumors, I've said for a while that I don't care if Ivy is Harley's age, but I definitely want a Catwoman closer to Batman's. Batman has been active for 20 years, so I think we should get a CW who has a lot of history with him. My vote would go to Lana Parilla; she's 40 years old and sexy as hell. She currently plays the Evil Queen on that Once Upon a Time tv show. I think she could pull off a wonderful older Catwoman.


I'd support that pick.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm taking the Sirens rumor with a massive bag of salt, let alone a grain lol


It's a sack of bs lol. Read what Ayer had to say about Gotham City Sirens just two days back: http://www.cinemablend.com/news/1683...uicide-squad-2

That doesn't seem like someone who has been fired from the project.  :Stick Out Tongue:  The rest of the rumors sound hilarious too: Emily Blunt/John Krasinski as Dinah and Ollie, Jane Levy as Ivy, Kelly Hu as Lady Shiva. All of these scream fan castings.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

‘Justice League’ Extensive Reshoots Causing Headaches for Star Schedules (EXCLUSIVE): http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ju...ts-1202502433/

----------


## Pinsir

I think the flailing of Spiderman Homecoming have demonstrated that the most fertile franchises, that is those that have never had a film, are the most profitable. This is good news for most of DC's properties, except Green Lantern though.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> ‘Justice League’ Extensive Reshoots Causing Headaches for Star Schedules (EXCLUSIVE): http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ju...ts-1202502433/


Looks like Snyder handled the action scenes while Whedon was brought in to handle the characters and drama.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> ‘Justice League’ Extensive Reshoots Causing Headaches for Star Schedules (EXCLUSIVE): http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ju...ts-1202502433/


"According to multiple insiders". But then you have: 

*“They’re brief if anything,”* said Ray Fisher, who plays Cyborg. “Zack picked a great director to help clean up for us.”

----------


## Serpico Jones

> "According to multiple insiders". But then you have: 
> 
> *“They’re brief if anything,”* said Ray Fisher, who plays Cyborg. “Zack picked a great director to help clean up for us.”


What did you expect him to say?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Ditto what everyone is saying about Steppenwolf. I love his "day at the office" vibe. Like he's seen everyone banding together valiantly fighting for their worlds 1000 times over, and he just knows how it ends.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Not sure why people are talking about Infinity War here but anyway  :Smile: 

I watched the JL trailer again and I have a crazy theory. What if the guy Alfred is talking to at the end is not Superman, Green Lantern, Supergirl or whoever we think.

What if it's Future Flash? It's possible that the hope thing is meant to throw us off (and I find the emphasis a bit try hard but whatever). Say the thumping isn't actually Superman's footsteps, but the sound of Future Barry appearing and running. It can also explain the bit of red we see at the edge of the screen. 

I mean just think about it. Batman knows of Future Barry already. And then there's Alfred's lines: "They said you would come. Let's hope you're not too late." What if the emphasis is supposed to be on "not too late" and not "hope" Being late is something very much associated with the Flash, and besides, how would anyone know Superman would come back? He's still as good as dead from what the trailer shows. Unless at some point Supes resurrects, the JL know about and then tell Alfred, I can see that being Superman. But then Future Flash appeared to Bruce in the same place as Alfred is.

I might be overthinking it though

----------


## Iconic

> Not sure why people are talking about Infinity War here but anyway 
> 
> I watched the JL trailer again and I have a crazy theory. What if the guy Alfred is talking to at the end is not Superman, Green Lantern, Supergirl or whoever we think.
> 
> What if it's Future Flash? It's possible that the hope thing is meant to throw us off (and I find the emphasis a bit try hard but whatever). Say the thumping isn't actually Superman's footsteps, but the sound of Future Barry appearing and running. It can also explain the bit of red we see at the edge of the screen. 
> 
> I mean just think about it. Batman knows of Future Barry already. And then there's Alfred's lines: "They said you would come. Let's hope you're not too late." What if the emphasis is supposed to be on "not too late" and not "hope" Being late is something very much associated with the Flash, and besides, how would anyone know Superman would come back? He's still as good as dead from what the trailer shows. Unless at some point Supes resurrects, the JL know about and then tell Alfred, I can see that being Superman. But then Future Flash appeared to Bruce in the same place as Alfred is.
> 
> I might be overthinking it though


Woah. This actually makes sense!

----------


## Lightning Rider

> What did you expect him to say?


I'd have a different reaction if he said "Well, there are certain things we're trying to improve...certain things Zack thought could be done better...we're just trying to make sure the story flows and the audience is happy with the dialogue." That would sound like significant modification to the film.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Borys Kit from the Hollywood Reporter says the Justice League reshoots are "substantial" and some actors are needed for 4 weeks of reshoots.

----------


## dianafan1985

> The main edge I give JL over Infinity War already is the fact JL, despite predominately being a big spectacle piece, seems to have something to say about Superman's importance to the world ideologically and physically and how the JL can try and possibly fail to compensate for his absence.


Thats precisely the reason why I am a little bit more excited to see Infinity over JL, even though my favourite character is bound to play a pivotal role in the JL story.  I personally would prefer to watch paint dry than to pay money to actually see a wankfest about Superman. I strongly believe the story will be similar to Justice League War, in the sense that the team will underestimate themselves (or at least some of them anyway) due to Superman's absence, but will eventually prove to be effective and efficient in disposing of the main villain, collectively, as well as the minions (parademons). I believe Superman will appear to assist the league, but as an additional body and pair of hands. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman all have superior abilities by themselves to handle any alien, monster or god. In the doomsday battle, Wonder Woman faired as well as Superman (at least before he was "killed")  and she was able to emerge from the battle without a scratch, thus, the team essentially has a heavy hitter (without Superman).  When Superman arrives though, his strength and abilities will UP the game for them but they are all far from useless without him. 

Infinity war promises to be a movie about team work, as opposed to what has been believed by some about the story in JL. I love Superman, but he is just one of my favourite characters and this should be a movie about all these heroes coming together to collectively eliminate a global threat. If it is just a Superman fanboy fantasy, I don't want to see it.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Thats precisely the reason why I am a little bit more excited to see Infinity over JL, even though my favourite character is bound to play a pivotal role in the JL story.  I personally would prefer to watch paint dry than to pay money to actually see a wankfest about Superman. I strongly believe the story will be similar to Justice League War, in the sense that the team will underestimate themselves (or at least some of them anyway) due to Superman's absence, but will eventually prove to be effective and efficient in disposing of the main villain, collectively, as well as the minions (parademons). I believe Superman will appear to assist the league, but as an additional body and pair of hands. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman all have superior abilities by themselves to handle any alien, monster or god. In the doomsday battle, Wonder Woman faired as well as Superman (at least before he was "killed")  and she was able to emerge from the battle without a scratch, thus, the team essentially has a heavy hitter (without Superman).  When Superman arrives though, his strength and abilities will UP the game for them but they are all far from useless without him. 
> 
> Infinity war promises to be a movie about team work, as opposed to what has been believed by some about the story in JL. I love Superman, but he is just one of my favourite characters and this should be a movie about all these heroes coming together to collectively eliminate a global threat. If it is just a Superman fanboy fantasy, I don't want to see it.


It's obviously going to be much more about team-building than Superman worship. He may be the ultimate push that helps them save the day but not before they all work their way into a functional team with their own personalities that work together. The movie has to take time to establish that. 

infinity War is going to be an existing team fighting and quipping as things blow up.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Thats precisely the reason why I am a little bit more excited to see Infinity over JL, even though my favourite character is bound to play a pivotal role in the JL story.  I personally would prefer to watch paint dry than to pay money to actually see a wankfest about Superman. I strongly believe the story will be similar to Justice League War, in the sense that the team will underestimate themselves (or at least some of them anyway) due to Superman's absence, but will eventually prove to be effective and efficient in disposing of the main villain, collectively, as well as the minions (parademons). I believe Superman will appear to assist the league, but as an additional body and pair of hands. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman all have superior abilities by themselves to handle any alien, monster or god. In the doomsday battle, Wonder Woman faired as well as Superman (at least before he was "killed")  and she was able to emerge from the battle without a scratch, thus, the team essentially has a heavy hitter (without Superman).  When Superman arrives though, his strength and abilities will UP the game for them but they are all far from useless without him. 
> 
> Infinity war promises to be a movie about team work, as opposed to what has been believed by some about the story in JL. I love Superman, but he is just one of my favourite characters and this should be a movie about all these heroes coming together to collectively eliminate a global threat. If it is just a Superman fanboy fantasy, I don't want to see it.


I think why I liked this Justice League trailer is because it has a bit of a sense of wonder and mystery to it. Everyone's asking where the Lanterns are and who that guy is at the end. For such a long trailer, it does a very good job at not spoiling too much and has a bit of mystery to it. I'm hoping the movie reflects this, because that's interesting. I'm not totally awed of seeing all the heroes finally together because frankly I don't care about any of them apart from Diana. But this movie looks like it's opening up the world of the DCEU in a big way and that feels important. That is also a ton of fan service though, and while the actual plot doesn't look very interesting, the possibilities are, especially moving forward.

But for me, I'm way more excited for Infinity War. I didn't even need to see the leaked trailer to be. I think it was Antony Russo that said the movie deals with themes of destiny, what it means to be a hero and some other things I can't remember. They've also said Thanos is a philosophical guy and to me that was reflected in some of his lines ("Destiny comes for all", "I know what it's like to lose, to give everything", "Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the universe"). I also just love the character developments the likes Steve, Natasha and Tony have gone through. I can't to see how they've handled Steve (considering how much the Russos love Cap). And just the prospect of seeing characters like Doctor Strange and Star-Lord fighting is enough to get me hyped.

I want to enjoy both movies and I'm sure I will. But Infinity War means way more to me than Justice League does (which kinda sucks because I grew up on the League)

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> It's obviously going to be much more about team-building than Superman worship. He may be the ultimate push that helps them save the day but not before they all work their way into a functional team with their own personalities that work together. The movie has to take time to establish that. 
> 
> infinity War is going to be an existing team fighting and quipping as things blow up.


Now let's not act as if the Justice League trailers have not been filled with humour. Far more than any of the Infinity War or Thor: Ragnarok trailers (the former had not a single joke). Humour isn't a bad thing and it's obvious Justice League is embracing that. Stop acting like you know everything

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Of course we get this "news" as soon comic con is over. 

Funny how believe believe "insiders" but when actual people from the production say something it's "we can't take them seriously". Please.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I think why I liked this Justice League trailer is because it has a bit of a sense of wonder and mystery to it. Everyone's asking where the Lanterns are and who that guy is at the end. For such a long trailer, it does a very good job at not spoiling too much and has a bit of mystery to it. I'm hoping the movie reflects this, because that's interesting. I'm not totally awed of seeing all the heroes finally together because frankly I don't care about any of them apart from Diana. But this movie looks like it's opening up the world of the DCEU in a big way and that feels important. That is also a ton of fan service though, and while the actual plot doesn't look very interesting, the possibilities are, especially moving forward.
> 
> *But for me, I'm way more excited for Infinity War. I didn't even need to see the leaked trailer to be. I think it was Antony Russo that said the movie deals with themes of destiny, what it means to be a hero and some other things I can't remember. They've also said Thanos is a philosophical guy and to me that was reflected in some of his lines ("Destiny comes for all", "I know what it's like to lose, to give everything", "Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the universe"). I also just love the character developments the likes Steve, Natasha and Tony have gone through. I can't to see how they've handled Steve (considering how much the Russos love Cap). And just the prospect of seeing characters like Doctor Strange and Star-Lord fighting is enough to get me hyped.*
> 
> I want to enjoy both movies and I'm sure I will. But Infinity War means way more to me than Justice League does (which kinda sucks because I grew up on the League)


I totally agree with your comment - especially the section I bolded.  I am more a DC fan than a Marvel given my "devotion" to Diana, but I love the character developments of all the avengers and the guardians, and Black Panther is now one of my favourite heroes of all time (I am HIGHLY anticipating his movie).  Thanos and Loki, and Thor and  the Incredible Hulk, and Starlord and Groot!!!.... oh my God, that movie is going to be off the charts.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Thats precisely the reason why I am a little bit more excited to see Infinity over JL, even though my favourite character is bound to play a pivotal role in the JL story.  I personally would prefer to watch paint dry than to pay money to actually see a wankfest about Superman. I strongly believe the story will be similar to Justice League War, in the sense that the team will underestimate themselves (or at least some of them anyway) due to Superman's absence, but will eventually prove to be effective and efficient in disposing of the main villain, collectively, as well as the minions (parademons). I believe Superman will appear to assist the league, but as an additional body and pair of hands. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman all have superior abilities by themselves to handle any alien, monster or god. In the doomsday battle, Wonder Woman faired as well as Superman (at least before he was "killed")  and she was able to emerge from the battle without a scratch, thus, the team essentially has a heavy hitter (without Superman).  When Superman arrives though, his strength and abilities will UP the game for them but they are all far from useless without him. 
> 
> Infinity war promises to be a movie about team work, as opposed to what has been believed by some about the story in JL. I love Superman, but he is just one of my favourite characters and this should be a movie about all these heroes coming together to collectively eliminate a global threat. If it is just a Superman fanboy fantasy, I don't want to see it.


Put me down for the Superman fanboy fantasy :P 

Seriously speaking though, here's my take: I LOVE what we've gotten with the DCEU thus far. I love it. But, a lot of people have had issues with the handling of certain characters, Superman included. Though I love what we have, I do think a little bit of Superman fanwank would be a good thing, if it gets him back to a more even footing with audiences. Some people just want Reeve v.02, and I certainly do not. But, I would be happy to settle for something in between if it means better general reception and MoS 2. 

As a fan who will defend these films to the death, I would happily settle for a Superman that fits both molds, and if we need some fanwank in there then so be it lol My personal opinion though is we will see each League member show us why they belong on the team and will each get a chance to shine in the first 2 hours. But it proves not enough to complete the puzzle, so in the last 30 minutes Superman returns as the missing piece and puts the League over the top. His showing in the last act will be the fanwank, but there will be 2 hours of non-Superman for the others to...wank. I think. 

Anyway, I hope that made sense lol

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Someone here mentioned Spider-Man fatigue and he/she might be right. The movie had everything, yet it looks like it will wind up in the same financial neighborhood with the first Spidey film from Sony.


I think it was because, emotionally, it was a pretty basic movie. More is expected from Spidey, than to just be fun.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> God damn, Gal is thicker than my accent


Stop. Gal is not thick, at all.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Always taking these rumors with a grain of salt, but if that's really what Ayer wanted then I'm happy WB (most likely Geoff Johns) is putting their foot down. Just trust the source material! Suicide Squad was pretty horrible so I wouldn't be mad if he parts ways with the DCEU. I would be worried about Margot Robbie bailing as her and Ayer are supposedly friends. 
> Krasinski would be fine as Ollie. He was in contention to play Captain America. So it's not the first time he's been connected to the world of superheroes. And we could finally see an Ollie closer to the comic book version and not just Batman-light like Arrow.


I'd love for Nolan to convince DiCaprio to play Ollie Queen. He'd be perfect for the role, even if a little short. He's got his Oscar, so he can do these kinda movies now.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Stop. Gal is not thick, at all.


The picture made me think "Basic Instinct". Lord, I'm old LOL

I love the shot of Batman in front of the (Morrison) Red Sky. Just an Easter Egg but still awesome.



> I'd love for Nolan to convince DiCaprio to play Ollie Queen. He'd be perfect for the role, even if a little short. He's got his Oscar, so he can do these kinda movies now.


I'd rather have Krasinsky (?), or Armie Hammer finally, maybe Jake Gyllenhall or Cillian Murphy. One was almost Cap, the others almost Batman

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

And the DCEU is back to getting very negative press. 

*Justice League Reshoot Details Point to Chaotic Scheduling and Increasing Costs*
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/24/j...ling-problems/

----------


## Johnny

I never quite understood why entertainment media seems so hellbent on destroying that movie.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I just thought I'd leave this here  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think it was because, emotionally, it was a pretty basic movie. More is expected from Spidey, than to just be fun.


That could be it, TFTF. It just needed that something special to draw in enough fans to be worthy of Spidey's great popularity.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I never quite understood why entertainment media seems so hellbent on destroying that movie.


It's two-part: 
1. DC has become an easy target after the backlash of MOS, and mainly BvS and SS; and 
2. There does seem to be a sense of "there's nothing to see here---everything is perfectly under control" when it's clearly not.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I never quite understood why entertainment media seems so hellbent on destroying that movie.


Sounds to me like that's Joss Whedon's doing; why does he have to re-shoot anything? I thought he was supposed to COMPLETE what Snyder started, not do it over....  :Confused:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Sounds to me like that's Joss Whedon's doing; why does he have to re-shoot anything? I thought he was supposed to COMPLETE what Snyder started, not do it over....


Uhhh...or Snyder failed to make a coherent movie again (BvS, not MOS) and now Whedon has to film scenes to piece the plot together. WB wouldn't be moving to give Whedon a director credit if he wasn't having to really fix some stuff right now.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Uhhh...or Snyder failed to make a coherent movie again (BvS, not MOS) and now Whedon has to film scenes to piece the plot together. WB wouldn't be moving to give Whedon a director credit if he wasn't having to really fix some stuff right now.


Or maybe Whedon is the one pushing for them to give him director credit. The movie was already filmed; who cares about "snippy dialogue" like the article stated; its unnecessary, and I honestly don't think, after everything that took place with Suicide Squasd and BvS, that Snyder would make the same mistakes again. He understands these characters; not every character was designed to have snippy dialogue.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I never quite understood why entertainment media seems so hellbent on destroying that movie.


What if they bring it upon themselves?!

----------


## Doctor Know

> I never quite understood why entertainment media seems so hellbent on destroying that movie.


Because WB is the only genuine challenger to the throne that is the MCU. Spider-Man Homecoming is showing signs of franchise fatigue, despite being set in the MCU and having RDJ co-star in the movie and may end up making less than TASM1. Fox has more X-Men movies than WB, but no one cares whether the X-Men films sink or swim. X-Men Apocalypse under performed by a lot, despite the good will  and massive returns DOFP and Deadpool created. And despite having Hollywood and media darling Jennifer Lawrence as the main star of the film and front lining all the advertisements for the movie. Nobody cares to see the next X-Men movie or the planned New Mutants film. They certainly don't care about this Doom solo or Future Foundation projects. 



WB/DC however, seemingly have a never ending stream of "insiders" and "sources" who are talking to the media on a daily basis and all forecasting doom for the DCEU. Despite the BO success (making more money than most Marvel movies), recognition from the Academy (Suicide Squad's Oscar), and support from the general audience and the fans. 

Of all the rumors we've heard from these websites, youtube videos and podcasts, have any of them turned out to be true?

Recall how it was reported that Wonder Woman was a mess before the release of the film? Same for JL. News of which was circulated back in February. Before there was even a working print of either film, that anyone could see.

WW was supposed to be Kryptonian.

The script of Suicide Squad leaking on Reddit, before it was discovered it that what was being circulated was the Assault on Arkham synopsis.

The state of the Batman script earlier this year.
The Batman script was so crap that it was scrapped altogether and a completely new script was commissioned with A PAGE ONE REWRITE!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...-2019-release/

In the wake of that, there was the rumor that the scrapped The Batman script was actually EPIC and possibly THE BEST Batman script ever written!
https://moviepilot.com/p/the-batman-...t-hush/4205326


Ben Affleck reportedly wanting out of the role because he's dissatisfied with the direction of the DCEU. A week later it comes out that he was in rehab for alcoholism, most likely caused by the stress of the divorce and custody battle he's presently going through with Jennifer Gardner.


Jason Todd is the Joker.

Scoot McNairy is the Flash

DC has a no joke policy for all their movies

There is going to be a Superman, Wonder Woman and Lois Lane love triangle. 

Jena Malone is playing Carrie Kelly

Warner Bros wanted for fire Zack Snyder, but instead used the personal tragedy of his daughter as an out for him. Despite WB not removing him after BvS's response, letting him direct JL and keeping the original release date for JL, rather than pushing it back 6 months to allow Zack and Deborah (his wife and producer) time to grieve their loss.

George Miller is directing MOS 2.

WB wanting 4 Batman/Batfam films a year. This one was from 4chan

Henry Cavil making $14 million dollars on Man of Steel, while Gal Gadot only made $300,000 for Wonder Woman.

The day before the JL trailer at SDCC, various sites were reporting (again) that Ben Affleck was leaving the role of Batman. The next day at the JL panel, Ben Affleck refutes those claims and Matt Reeves denies them as well.

The report that Gotham City Sirens is cancelled in favor of a Birds of Prey movie. 

Etc etc.






> Sounds to me like that's Joss Whedon's doing; why does he have to re-shoot anything? I thought he was supposed to COMPLETE what Snyder started, not do it over....





> Uhhh...or Snyder failed to make a coherent movie again (BvS, not MOS) and now Whedon has to film scenes to piece the plot together. WB wouldn't be moving to give Whedon a director credit if he wasn't having to really fix some stuff right now.


Hey! You know what film is also being released in November and is currently undergoing reshoots? Thor Ragnarok. Why is no one talking about that? 
Don't you think the MCU got it right the first time? #sarcasm

To answer my own question, no one cares about other studio goings on. Detractors are looking to have their preconceived notions and biases confirmed, so every rumor, "report" and article is taken as gospel, until it's proven to be false. Like they say, "there's no news like bad news". And in this era of fake news, there's nothing to stop a person or organization from making up news just to drive traffic to their website or video.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's two-part: 
> 1. DC has become an easy target after the backlash of MOS, and mainly BvS and SS; and 
> 2. There does seem to be a sense of "there's nothing to see here---everything is perfectly under control" when it's clearly not.


How is it "clear" that everything isn't under control again? What evidence is there to support these reports? 

The answer: there is NO such evidence. None. These reports are identical to the ones that were coming in just a few months ago, claiming that "inside sources" told them that the Wonder Woman movie "Is a MESS!!!" 

Fast-forward a little? Wonder Woman is NOT a mess and is, in fact, cleaning the clocks of every other summer blockbuster this year. The only two movies that have a prayer of outperforming Wonder Woman this year are Star Wars Episode 8 and (hopefully) Justice League itself.

There is no evidence to support these rumors. Just more bogus claims from a bunch of people with a vested interest in tearing down DCEU films. They were proven wrong by Wonder Woman. They can be proven wrong again with Justice League. 

So who do we trust? These same Internet jokers who tried and failed to convince us about Wonder Woman's imminent demise, or the people who are actually involved in the movie and the evidence we have already seen? You know? Evidence like Jason Momoa only coming back for a whopping one week to do his re-shoots? Evidence like Henry Cavill still being in New Zealand, filming MI? Evidence like Ezra Miller still working on Fantastic Beasts?

----------


## dianafan1985

> Because WB is the only genuine challenger to the throne that is the MCU. Spider-Man Homecoming is showing signs of franchise fatigue, despite being set in the MCU and having RDJ co-star in the movie and may end up making less than TASM1. Fox has more X-Men movies than WB, but no one cares whether the X-Men films sink or swim. X-Men Apocalypse under performed by a lot, despite the good will  and massive returns DOFP and Deadpool created. And despite having Hollywood and media darling Jennifer Lawrence as the main star of the film and front lining all the advertisements for the movie. Nobody cares to see the next X-Men movie or the planned New Mutants film. They certainly don't care about this Doom solo or Future Foundation projects. 
> 
> 
> 
> WB/DC however, seemingly have a never ending stream of "insiders" and "sources" who are talking to the media on a daily basis and all forecasting doom for the DCEU. Despite the BO success (making more money than most Marvel movies), recognition from the Academy (Suicide Squad's Oscar), and support from the general audience and the fans. 
> 
> Of all the rumors we've heard from these websites, youtube videos and podcasts, have any of them turned out to be true?
> 
> Recall how it was reported that Wonder Woman was a mess before the release of the film? Same for JL. News of which was circulated back in February. Before there was even a working print of either film, that anyone could see.
> ...


Point taken, I just feel really uneasy where Joss Whedon is concerned, and when I read articles like that, it just makes me more skeptical or cynical, because I don't trust him around DC characters, and I am certain that he has an agenda (as a director).

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Uhhh...or Snyder failed to make a coherent movie again (BvS, not MOS) and now Whedon has to film scenes to piece the plot together. WB wouldn't be moving to give Whedon a director credit if he wasn't having to really fix some stuff right now.


BvS failed because of WB edits. JL isn't even done  shooting, let alone editing, so there's no coherent movie to be had.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> How is it "clear" that everything isn't under control again? What evidence is there to support these reports? 
> 
> The answer: there is NO such evidence. None. These reports are identical to the ones that were coming in just a few months ago, claiming that "inside sources" told them that the Wonder Woman movie "Is a MESS!!!" 
> 
> Fast-forward a little? Wonder Woman is NOT a mess and is, in fact, cleaning the clocks of every other summer blockbuster this year. The only two movies that have a prayer of outperforming Wonder Woman this year are Star Wars Episode 8 and (hopefully) Justice League itself.
> 
> There is no evidence to support these rumors. Just more bogus claims from a bunch of people with a vested interest in tearing down DCEU films. They were proven wrong by Wonder Woman. They can be proven wrong again with Justice League. 
> 
> So who do we trust? These same Internet jokers who tried and failed to convince us about Wonder Woman's imminent demise, or the people who are actually involved in the movie and the evidence we have already seen? You know? Evidence like Jason Momoa only coming back for a whopping one week to do his re-shoots? Evidence like Henry Cavill still being in New Zealand, filming MI? Evidence like Ezra Miller still working on Fantastic Beasts?


I trust Moviepilot's sources.

----------


## Carabas

> Sounds to me like that's Joss Whedon's doing; why does he have to re-shoot anything? I thought he was supposed to COMPLETE what Snyder started, not do it over....


Every DCEU movie except Man Of Steel had reshoots.




> Or maybe Whedon is the one pushing for them to give him director credit.


More lilkely, test audiences were not happy with certain bits and the studio ordered them redone, as per standard operating procedure.

----------


## dianafan1985

> BvS failed because of WB edits. JL isn't even done  shooting, let alone editing, so there's no coherent movie to be had.


I thought they said that the shooting was wrapped up a few months ago, hence *re:* shooting.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Every DCEU movie except Man Of Steel had reshoots.


Thus, it is not necessary for every film to have it. My main question/concern, is why Whedon felt it was necessary to re-shoot the scenes that Snyder had previously shot? Obviously some people are going to be away on other projects, because the filming was wrapped up back in May or June, I believe.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Not like I'm disagreeing with you guys that think all these rumours are false but weren't there rumours about BvS being a mess? That pretty much turned out to be true didn't (even though I know some of you like it). And weren't there also rumours that Ben Affleck was stepping down as the director and star of the Batman? Half of that did turn out to be true. I think the DCEU is a bit of a target but I do think these reshoots are extensive and Joss Whedln wants credit OR they aren't and he wants credit either way.

But clearly WB wants this movie to be a hit, which is good

----------


## Bukdiah

Are we just speculating what is being re-shot or is it stated anywhere?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I never quite understood why entertainment media seems so hellbent on destroying that movie.


Pretty much. What is funny is I skimmed the "article" and it was such nonsense, Cavill is filming with a moustache there is honestly no need to post that like at all other than to have the agenda that the DCEU is in trouble, conveniently as soon as SDDC is over. All of a sudden everyone has "insider information". 

Also Whedon isn't getting credit, WB press releases still say it's Snyder's film, he literally doing this as a favour, but there always must be an agenda...

----------


## Rogue Star

> Stop. Gal is not thick, at all.


Thank you. I wanted to say something but I didn't want to get slapped with a hater tag.

----------


## Carabas

> Thus, it is not necessary for every film to have it. My main question/concern, is why Whedon felt it was necessary to re-shoot the scenes that Snyder had previously shot? Obviously some people are going to be away on other projects, because the filming was wrapped up back in May or June, I believe.


Please link to a source that says it was specifically Whedon who felt it was necessary?

But even if it was him, I trust his storyteller instincts a hell of a lot more than Snyder's.

----------


## MosSuperman

Now I want to see a set photo of Cavill rocking that mustache in his Superman costume.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

*Nobody* here knows whether or not these rumors are true. Sometimes they're right on the money and sometimes (a little too often for my tastes) they're not. Just have to wait and see, ladies and gentlemen.

----------


## Troian

Whatever happens, I'm just ready for this 60 percent CGI 40 percent real people/settings movie.

----------


## Pinsir

> I trust Moviepilot's sources.


How come we never heard from sources that the Han Solo film was in turmoil or that Zach Snyder had left the production of the film after his daughters death?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> How come we never heard from sources that the Han Solo film was in turmoil or that Zach Snyder had left the production of the film after his daughters death?


Someone here (I'm too lazy to do it) should set up a thread tallying up each source's accuracy percentage - a Rotten Rumatoes, if you will.  :Smile:

----------


## Johnny

I really like the GL intro design. The GL symbol kinda looks like it's encased in an armored plate. I doubt this would end up being Hal's actual movie design but looks so neat.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I really like the GL intro design. The GL symbol kinda looks like it's encased in an armored plate. I doubt this would end up being Hal's actual movie design but looks so neat.


Agreed, Johnny. It's pretty awesome.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Please link to a source that says it was specifically Whedon who felt it was necessary?


If the reports of the reshoots are true, and Whedon happens to be the director, who else would feel that it would be necessary? 




> But even if it was him, I trust his storyteller instincts a hell of a lot more than Snyder's.


I don't. Snyder may be disjointed but he has enough respect for these characters to portray them as being capable and efficient. I have never seen him take liberties with Batman, Superman, and most definitely Wonder Woman. Whedon on the other hand, seems to do whatever he wants, as per the bizarre WW script I read of his.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> How come we never heard from sources that the Han Solo film was in turmoil or that Zach Snyder had left the production of the film after his daughters death?


No idea. But I was screwing around about Moviepilot.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

:Smile: 

(credit goes to the DC Cinematic Reddit)

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Round of applause for the dorks who did that.

----------


## Rogue Star

Batman should keep this look going forward.

----------


## Buried Alien

> (credit goes to the DC Cinematic Reddit)


Did the Justice League all join Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Punisher007

> If the reports of the reshoots are true, and Whedon happens to be the director, who else would feel that it would be necessary? 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't. Snyder may be disjointed but he has enough respect for these characters to portray them as being capable and efficient. I have never seen him take liberties with *Batman, Superman, and* most definitely Wonder Woman. Whedon on the other hand, seems to do whatever he wants, as per the bizarre WW script I read of his.


Really, because I just saw a movie where he did EXACTLY that.  Two in Superman's case in fact.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I really like the GL intro design. The GL symbol kinda looks like it's encased in an armored plate. I doubt this would end up being Hal's actual movie design but looks so neat.


I really think they should go the armor route for the Lanterns, or at least one of the Lantern Corps. It'd be cool if Hal's suit was more comic book inspired because he loved heroes growing up, while John had a more tactical approach because of his more serious disposition. 

Hal being his mentor, and teaching him to loosen up, and unleash his imagination, would be a great through line for their movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Please link to a source that says it was specifically Whedon who felt it was necessary?
> 
> But even if it was him, I trust his storyteller instincts a hell of a lot more than Snyder's.


I don't. While Snyder does have some storytelling flaws, he doesn't usually skimp world building details....which Whedon does almost all the time. The main characters always feel like they're operating on their own rules, separate from the world they inhabit. Superman, Batman, and WW all seem like they live in, and are actually affected by, the world they live in, and in similar ways to the regular people of that world do. That makes everything have stakes, and the characters more relatable.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Really, because I just saw a movie where he did EXACTLY that.  Two in Superman's case in fact.


Is it really liberties tho? These are takes we've seen in stories, in the comics.

----------


## Robotman

so DC/WB have a ton of movies scheduled to go into production but no official plan for Justice League 2. This has me seriously worried that Darkseid will appear and get KO'd all in this first film. That could be the worst decision ever. I don't want his arrival to be drawn out as much as Thanos but he deserves some build up.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Thank you. I wanted to say something but I didn't want to get slapped with a hater tag.


Someone had to say it. I love Gal as WW, but people need to stop. I remember when she was getting crap for not being thick. Yes, she's put on weight, but she's NO WHERE NEAR being thick. 

This is a thick WW-type body:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> so DC/WB have a ton of movies scheduled to go into production but no official plan for Justice League 2. This has me seriously worried that Darkseid will appear and get KO'd all in this first film. That could be the worst decision ever. I don't want his arrival to be drawn out as much as Thanos but he deserves some build up.


There is build up. Steppenwolf is far weaker than Darksied, and he admits that he's been watching Earth, and sees the current heroes are no challenge at all. He also talks of the world he has conquered. Steppenwolf also only ONE of Darkseid's generals, and the JL is struggling. If Darkseid took conquering the Earth seriously, it'd be gone already.

----------


## Troian

If I'm being quite honest, her character body from Injustice 2 looks just like how thick I imagined Diana would be in real life or close to it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If I'm being quite honest, her character body from Injustice 2 looks just like how thick I imagined Diana would be in real life or close to it.


Yeah, Injustice 2 Diana is pretty thick as well.

----------


## Buried Alien

> There is build up. Steppenwolf is far weaker than Darksied, and he admits that he's been watching Earth, and sees the current heroes are no challenge at all. He also talks of the world he has conquered. Steppenwolf also only ONE of Darkseid's generals, and the JL is struggling. If Darkseid took conquering the Earth seriously, it'd be gone already.


Steppenwolf does seem wary of Kryptonians (and perhaps Green Lanterns, if that was indeed an allusion on the Green Lantern Corps in the trailer).  At some point, Darkseid and his coterie seem to have encountered Kryptonians and consider them a force to reckon with.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## MosSuperman

> Steppenwolf does seem wary of Kryptonians (and perhaps Green Lanterns, if that was indeed an allusion on the Green Lantern Corps in the trailer).  At some point, Darkseid and his coterie seem to have encountered Kryptonians and consider them a force to reckon with.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Krypton, one of few worlds to stop Darksied's invasion? I'd  like to see that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Krypton, one of few worlds to stop Darksied's invasion? I'd  like to see that.


Well, if Snyder stays on for JL2, we could potentially get a prologue of such an event.

----------


## JediKage

Yeah Gal is not think now that is not to say she didn't fill out nicely for the roll but THICC no just no. 


What I don't get is why Stephenwolf didn't come sooner. They apparently got defeated on Earth eons ago so not sure why it took some long to get back.

----------


## Confuzzled

> What I don't get is why Stephenwolf didn't come sooner. They apparently got defeated on Earth eons ago so not sure why it took some long to get back.


Watch the movie? lol.

They also probably turned their attention towards far greater worlds and galaxies, while ours was a lowly one not worth the effort after the initial defeat.

----------


## JediKage

Maybe they were held up with the Green Lantern Corps?

I just hope he doesn't kill all the Amazons. All the Amazons and Greek Gods dead takes away a lot of storytelling options.

----------


## Colossus1980

> so DC/WB have a ton of movies scheduled to go into production but no official plan for Justice League 2. This has me seriously worried that Darkseid will appear and get KO'd all in this first film. That could be the worst decision ever. I don't want his arrival to be drawn out as much as Thanos but he deserves some build up.


The thing that worries me is how long we will have to wait for JL2.  Hopefully it will be two years and not three.  If you look at Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Ext...in_development there are 14 movies in development.  So far only three of those have estimated release dates.  2018 sure seems lonely with only Aquaman.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Someone had to say it. I love Gal as WW, but people need to stop. I remember when she was getting crap for not being thick. Yes, she's put on weight, but she's NO WHERE NEAR being thick. 
> 
> This is a thick WW-type body:


*needs willpower and a cold shower* 
Try not to post... something. Seriously, if Gal would beef up she would be even better looking.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah Gal is not think now that is not to say she didn't fill out nicely for the roll but THICC no just no. 
> 
> 
> What I don't get is why Stephenwolf didn't come sooner. They apparently got defeated on Earth eons ago so not sure why it took some long to get back.


When Darkseid was defeated, the three mother boxes on Earth were somehow used to seal Earth off from him. Steppenwolf needs to collect the three mother boxes in order to open the doors and allow Darkseid's forces to come through.




> *needs willpower and a cold shower* 
> Try not to post... something. Seriously, if Gal would beef up she would be even better looking.


Gal DID beef up. She packed on 17 pounds of lean mass for this role. Fun biological fact: women cannot build muscle mass as quickly or as easily as men can.

For Gal to look.anything like this woman, she would probably have to resort to steroids and/or she'd have to practically live in her gym nonstop.

----------


## Carabas

Nitpick: "thick", when refering to people, does not mean well built, or curvy or anything lke it. It mean stupid.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Nitpick: "thick", when refering to people, does not mean well built, or curvy or anything lke it. It mean stupid.


Different usage of the same words. "Thick headed" must have started as a slang/casual usage too before being accepted into the dictionary.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> so DC/WB have a ton of movies scheduled to go into production but no official plan for Justice League 2. This has me seriously worried that Darkseid will appear and get KO'd all in this first film. That could be the worst decision ever. I don't want his arrival to be drawn out as much as Thanos but he deserves some build up.


Who says no official plan? They just didn't announce anything related to JL2, this was a controlled announcement, JL isn't even out yet. We'll probably get something once the film drops. I think we will see DS more than we think but he won't be close to knocked out or defeated.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Nitpick: "thick", when refering to people, does not mean well built, or curvy or anything lke it. It mean stupid.


Thus the advancement of language and it's colloquial usage

----------


## Troian

> Nitpick: "thick", when refering to people, does not mean well built, or curvy or anything lke it. It mean stupid.


But it's new age slang. Languages are always changing haha.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Maybe General Zod helped defeat Steppenwolf's invasion of Krypton? Perhaps that's how Jor-El and he knew one another so well? I love the shades of grey that casts. I'd love a flashback of Michael Shannon as Zod leading the Kryptonian army to victory over an army of parademons. 

I'm sure Steppenwolf, and all of Apokolips, are at least aware of the Green Lantern Corps. I'm sure they've had run ins.

----------


## godisawesome

> Steppenwolf does seem wary of Kryptonians (and perhaps Green Lanterns, if that was indeed an allusion on the Green Lantern Corps in the trailer).  At some point, Darkseid and his coterie seem to have encountered Kryptonians and consider them a force to reckon with.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)





> Krypton, one of few worlds to stop Darksied's invasion? I'd  like to see that.


I've long thought something like that would be an awesome extrapolation to make from the Fourth World being eons old while Krypton is as well. And Steppenwolf being wary of Lanterns may build on that as well; just picture the Fourth World, Ancient Krypton, and the Guardians as powerful opponents in some vast cosmic war millennia ago. Maybe the Kryptonians' way of evening the odds was to genetically modify themselves to absorb solar radiation and breath different atmospheres, allowing them to survive environmental desolation on some planets and command phenomenal powers on others. 

And maybe Darkseid's major gambit (perhaps after overthrowing his mother) to dissolve a potential three-front war with New Genesis, Krypton, and the Guardians was to be more crafty; unleash Dessad and Glorious Godfrey to sabotage the Kryptonians' colonizations and maybe play into the Manhunters' corruption. Then as the Kryptonians fade (perhaps leaving a single regressing colony- Daxam - alone in space), the Guardians replace their rebellious robots with the Lantern Corps, and Darkseid counters again by deploying his uncle Steppenwolf to take over whatever vulnerable planets without protection are out there.

You could have a nice kind of ancient cosmic war story.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I like these ideas a lot.

----------


## Dominick1216

They really messed up with releasing only Aquaman next year. They should have at least had one more film for 2018. Perfect opportunity to release MOS 2. After Superman's return in Justice League, it would have been a perfect time for giving him a sequel...

----------


## ekrolo2

> They really messed up with releasing only Aquaman next year. They should have at least had one more film for 2018. Perfect opportunity to release MOS 2. After Superman's return in Justice League, it would have been a perfect time for giving him a sequel...


Flash was going to be their other 2018 movie but production issues have kept that from happening. There's really no time to do anything else, certainly not an effects heavy MoS 2 with no director or script or anything at all ready. Even if it started shooting tomorrow, it would be hard pressed to make it to 2018.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> They really messed up with releasing only Aquaman next year. They should have at least had one more film for 2018. Perfect opportunity to release MOS 2. After Superman's return in Justice League, it would have been a perfect time for giving him a sequel...


Yeah, I also feel that they've cocked the schedule up there. There's over a year now between JL in November and Aquaman next Christmas. Meanwhile Marvel have 3 movies lined up during that period....

----------


## Elmo

WB already has like 20 more films releasing next year not including Aquaman so having only one DC movie isn't a loss for them. The big winners are always the team movies as they represent the universe as a whole and not any specific characters. The next few years are really going to just be solo films so I don't think they're stressing too much on reminding everyone "hey, don't forget that we're a shared universe."

that being said, it would've been nice to have MoS2 for next year and Flash as well. I really don't care for Flashpoint at all and the fact that the Flash's debut solo film is an adaptation of that story feels almost insulting to me, as a Flash fan. It's almost like they don't have faith in the character in a film on his own, or maybe they doubt Miller's ability to carry a solo film?

----------


## Flash Gordon

I don't really like too much overlap between the Fourth World and superhero stuff, but I guess that's just how it is now.

A flashback to Steppenwolf, ages ago, leading an interdimesional attack on Krypton and getting stopped by a young Zod and his men (with the help of Jor-El) is kinda cool.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Yeah, I also feel that they've cocked the schedule up there. There's over a year now between JL in November and Aquaman next Christmas. Meanwhile Marvel have 3 movies lined up during that period....


I don't mind the lack of quantity as long as it's quality stuff being released

----------


## Clark_Kent

> WB already has like 20 more films releasing next year not including Aquaman so having only one DC movie isn't a loss for them. The big winners are always the team movies as they represent the universe as a whole and not any specific characters. The next few years are really going to just be solo films so I don't think they're stressing too much on reminding everyone "hey, don't forget that we're a shared universe."
> 
> that being said, it would've been nice to have MoS2 for next year and Flash as well. I really don't care for Flashpoint at all and the fact that the Flash's debut solo film is an adaptation of that story feels almost insulting to me, as a Flash fan. It's almost like they don't have faith in the character in a film on his own, or maybe they doubt Miller's ability to carry a solo film?


Maybe they just don't want to retread ground the tv show has already covered. By the time they get a movie out, the show will be 4-5 seasons old. Maybe they just don't want to do the origin stuff again right now. 

And yeah, I know the show did Flashpoint, but...it was kinda in name only. Except for Wally's death & Joe's alcoholism, the universe was pretty well off. While I don't believe Flashpoint will follow the comic (i.e., no Arthur vs Diana war), I do believe Barry will experience a dismal timeline, and will run into Thomas Wayne Batman and will need his help to fight Thawne. And perhaps they'll run into the first ever female Joker on screen, as well. I don't think you waste actors like Morgan & Cohan.

----------


## Elmo

> Maybe they just don't want to retread ground the tv show has already covered. By the time they get a movie out, the show will be 4-5 seasons old. Maybe they just don't want to do the origin stuff again right now. 
> 
> And yeah, I know the show did Flashpoint, but...it was kinda in name only. Except for Wally's death & Joe's alcoholism, the universe was pretty well off. While I don't believe Flashpoint will follow the comic (i.e., no Arthur vs Diana war), I do believe Barry will experience a dismal timeline, and will run into Thomas Wayne Batman and will need his help to fight Thawne. And perhaps they'll run into the first ever female Joker on screen, as well. I don't think you waste actors like Morgan & Cohan.


I understand that, but there is so much the show hasn't done and so much that could be seen in a film. Flashpoint is a crossover event, though it is Flash-centric it involves the entire DC Universe and honestly is a highly overrated storyline and by no means a noteworthy Flash/Barry Allen story. I'm not even sure I'd list it in a top 10. 

I just wanted a damn solo Flash adventure is all; this just feels like Geoff Johns poking holes in things. I'm not someone who hated Flashpoint but come on let's get over it already.

Edit: and to add one more thing, I have zero interest in seeing _anything_ Batman related in the Flash's first solo film, so JDM playing Thomas Wayne only makes me want to see the movie less.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I understand that, but there is so much the show hasn't done and so much that could be seen in a film. Flashpoint is a crossover event, though it is Flash-centric it involves the entire DC Universe and honestly is a highly overrated storyline and by no means a noteworthy Flash/Barry Allen story. I'm not even sure I'd list it in a top 10. 
> 
> I just wanted a damn solo Flash adventure is all; this just feels like Geoff Johns poking holes in things. I'm not someone who hated Flashpoint but come on let's get over it already.
> 
> Edit: and to add one more thing, I have zero interest in seeing _anything_ Batman related in the Flash's first solo film, so JDM playing Thomas Wayne only makes me want to see the movie less.


Oh, definitely, I completely understand wanting the solo first. I was just offering a possibility on why Flashpoint may be coming. 

I would love for JL 2 to feature the Crime Syndicate (perhaps a semi-adaptation of Forever Evil, except the JL would be present), but you never know - Flashpoint could easily be re-worked into "Justice League: Flashpoint" if JL is received well in November, leaving open a possible Flash solo.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I understand that, but there is so much the show hasn't done and so much that could be seen in a film. Flashpoint is a crossover event, though it is Flash-centric it involves the entire DC Universe and honestly is a highly overrated storyline and by no means a noteworthy Flash/Barry Allen story. I'm not even sure I'd list it in a top 10. 
> 
> I just wanted a damn solo Flash adventure is all; this just feels like Geoff Johns poking holes in things. I'm not someone who hated Flashpoint but come on let's get over it already.
> 
> Edit: and to add one more thing, I have zero interest in seeing _anything_ Batman related in the Flash's first solo film, so JDM playing Thomas Wayne only makes me want to see the movie less.


Yeah, I feel this way. Flashpoint isn't that great of a storyline for Flash and there's so much more that could be done.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I'd rather have only Aquaman next year than Aquaman and a rushed DC movie.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Mashable reporting that Zack Snyder's time with the DCEU is likely over.

----------


## Elmo

> Mashable reporting that Zack Snyder's time with the DCEU is likely over.


With no source and pure conjecture throughout the article. More clickbait.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Mashable reporting that Zack Snyder's time with the DCEU is likely over.


As always, I'm taking everything that article says with a HUGE pile of salt. But having said that, I want to make something very clear: if it becomes evident that Warner Bros and Geoff Johns used Snyder's family tragedy to push him away from the DCEU just to please movie critics and nostalgic fans, I'm done with DC movies!

----------


## dianafan1985

There has to be a modicum of truth to some or all of these reports. I hope they are all untrue, especially Joss Whedon's new role in the DCEU, but anything is possible. I better get used to him. lol

----------


## dianafan1985

> As always, I'm taking everything that article says with a HUGE pile of salt. But having said that, I want to make something very clear: if it becomes evident that Warner Bros and Geoff Johns used Snyder's family tragedy to push him away from the DCEU just to please movie critics and nostalgic fans, I'm done with DC movies!


Not to be cheeky, Thomas, but it is going to take a lot more than you being done with DC movies to put them out of business; but I fully agree with all that you said.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Yeah, I also feel that they've cocked the schedule up there. There's over a year now between JL in November and Aquaman *next Christmas*. Meanwhile Marvel have 3 movies lined up during that period....


Wow. I kept thinking it was this christmas.  Crap. I can't keep up with all these movie dates to save my life.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Mashable reporting that Zack Snyder's time with the DCEU is likely over.


Didn't we already know that it was?

I mean, we all heard the tragic news of what happened and why he was stepping down.

----------


## Pinsir

> There has to be a modicum of truth to some or all of these reports. I hope they are all untrue, especially Joss Whedon's new role in the DCEU, but anything is possible. I better get used to him. lol


Nah, their all lies  :Mad:

----------


## Buried Alien

> Didn't we already know that it was?
> 
> I mean, we all heard the tragic news of what happened and why he was stepping down.


I never thought that Snyder meant to leave permanently; I thought he intended to return to the helm after an appropriate amount of time (which only he and his family could determine) had passed.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Wonder Woman 2 Sets Release Date*




> The official word came from Warner Bros. on Tuesday evening.
> 
> It's official: Gal Gadot will return for a Wonder Woman sequel, which has received a release date from Warner Bros.
> 
> Wonder Woman 2, the follow-up to this year's superhero hit, will hit theaters Dec. 13, 2019.


Source

----------


## Rogue Star

I thought they were going to wait to see how Justice League does before announcing all these movies, dates and whatnot.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *Wonder Woman 2 Sets Release Date*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


Unbelievable! We Wonder Woman fans waited so long for even ONE Wonder Woman movie! Now we're getting a second one! And it's in December? That's the big time, boys and girls! Diana's a player now!  :Big Grin:

----------


## El_Gato

> I thought they were going to wait to see how Justice League does before announcing all these movies, dates and whatnot.


For the other heroes lol Wonder Woman just made 800+ million world wide (or that's where it's heading at least). A sequel was innevitable haha... So its looking like this for 2019:

April: Shazam
July: Suicide Squad 2
December: Wonder Woman 2

----------


## Bukdiah

> For the other heroes lol Wonder Woman just made 800+ million world wide (or that's where it's heading at least). A sequel was innevitable haha... So its looking like this for 2019:
> 
> April: Shazam
> July: Suicide Squad 2
> December: Wonder Woman 2


Oh god, I didn't know SS 2 was happening lmao

----------


## Dominick1216

> For the other heroes lol Wonder Woman just made 800+ million world wide (or that's where it's heading at least). A sequel was innevitable haha... So its looking like this for 2019:
> 
> April: Shazam
> July: Suicide Squad 2
> December: Wonder Woman 2


I hope they replace Suicide Squad 2 with The Batman

----------


## El_Gato

> Oh god, I didn't know SS 2 was happening lmao


Well it did make 745 million world wide without China and it includes popular actors like Margot Robbie and Will Smith so a sequel was innevitable.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Sweet!! WW 2 releases the day before my birthday (pumping fist in air). Finally a DCEU film for my birthday. 

It's a shame there's no way they could get it out for that February 14th date WB secured, though. Wonder Woman just seems like the right hero for Valentines Day lol


Edit: just saw AM is set for December 21st...so 2 DC films right around my birthday on consecutive years. Nice.

----------


## Punisher007

Charlize Theron as Cheetah, or maybe Sofia Boutella.

The last two Star Wars films have taken advantage of a dearth of competition in December, to great success.

Hopefully WW 2 can do the same.

----------


## Rogue Star

Anything to take Star Wars down a peg.

Just heard Black Adam is not going to be in Shazam. Not sure I'll be seeing this one if that's the case. Him being played by Dwayne Johnson was the main reason I wanted to see Shazam.  

And if Will Smith returns for Suicide Squad 2 that might be a pass as well. Just don't like that guy anymore.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

I hope he comes back. Deadshot, and Deathstroke, both vying to take control of the SS on a mission would be fun.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I hope he comes back. Deadshot, and Deathstroke, both vying to take control of the SS on a mission would be fun.


If Deathstroke is in I'm there despite Smith!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

That Mashable article is circulating like crazy, lol. No way they'd make Whedon the head of the DCEU when Jenkins, and Wan, better talents, are right there.

Snyder should take a bit of a backseat, but they need to keep to his overall vision, and aesthetic, while making adjustments, based on the characters, and stories told. His style makes the DCEU feel grand, and beyond imagination....as the DC Universe is to be. However, they do need to tone down the CGI boss fights lol.

Hopefully he comes back to do smaller, fringe, DCEU movies, like a Lobo, or a Deathstroke. Hell, maybe he takes this time to work on his storytelling craft. Still, they better not push Snyder out for a guy who doesn't push boundaries, and pitched that god awful WW movie of his. He's admittedly more of a Marvel guy, too. It would make no sense.

----------


## El_Gato

> If Deathstroke is in I'm there despite Smith!


I think a fun film or premise for SS2 would be Deathstroke hunting down the Squad while they are trying to accomplish their objective (Capture Harley Quinn and the Joker). That'd be pretty cool imo! 

Question is what will the roster be? Who will return? Hopefully Diablo is brought back and Katana is given more to do! Killer Frost would also be a cool addition!

----------


## JediKage

> That Mashable article is circulating like crazy, lol. No way they'd make Whedon the head of the DCEU when Jenkins, and Wan, better talents, are right there.
> 
> Snyder should take a bit of a backseat, but they need to keep to his overall vision, and aesthetic, while making adjustments, based on the characters, and stories told. His style makes the DCEU feel grand, and beyond imagination....as the DC Universe is to be. However, they do need to tone down the CGI boss fights lol.
> 
> Hopefully he comes back to do smaller, fringe, DCEU movies, like a Lobo, or a Deathstroke. Hell, maybe he takes this time to work on his storytelling craft. Still, they better not push Snyder out for a guy who doesn't push boundaries, and pitched that god awful WW movie of his. He's admittedly more of a Marvel guy, too. It would make no sense.


Really of those 3 Joss would seem to be the most likely to be willing to tie himself down doing a Superhero Universe for 5-10 years. 

Jenkins was already talking about wanting to do other projects while WW was making bank and Wan is more a master of horror which might work for Batman and Aquaman and again I am not sure he want to tie himself down. Joss likes the Pop Culture Fair and who knows revenge against Kevin Feige might be on the menu as well.

But really the only thing the Shareholders are looking at is Avengers and Avengers: AOU over 1 Billion Dollars each you know what Snyder failed to do with BvS? And 2 of the 3 most iconic Comic Characters name on the movie and together on the Big Screen for the first Time.

Also this is DC/WB not exactly the most competent management bunch if you ask me. 

Then again I am happy to see Snyder go not the why he left of course but I don't mind the end result.

----------


## Troian

I have said it in the WW forum, DC/WB do not make the final battle for WW 2 a dark, cgi slugfest.

----------


## JediKage

Yeah they didn't really stick the landing there.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think a fun film or premise for SS2 would be Deathstroke hunting down the Squad while they are trying to accomplish their objective (Capture Harley Quinn and the Joker). That'd be pretty cool imo! 
> 
> Question is what will the roster be? Who will return? Hopefully Diablo is brought back and Katana is given more to do! Killer Frost would also be a cool addition!


I was thinking more that Rick Flagg gets captured, or incapacitated, and Waller hires Slade to take charge of the SS for that mission. However, Slade and Floyd, have a history of multiple run-ins, and team-ups, that have screwed both of them over. Safe to say they butt heads.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah they didn't really stick the landing there.


This isn't even a Snyder, or DCEU, thing. Why can't we get more Deadpools, Logans, DoFPs, and X2s? Honestly, besides Origins, The Wolverine, and Apoccy, FOX has managed to give us conclusions that aren't giant CGI boss battles.  TBF, I also see Black Panther not doing the CGI end boss. Hell, a complaint about these CBMs, that feature heroes to look up to, is that the answer to solving a conflict (violent, or otherwise) seems to be with more violence. DoFP, and, to a degree, Spider-Man 2, didn't go that route, with DoFP straight up going with the "an eye for an eye, ends with everyone blind" type of philosophy, so that there's peace for everyone, including their enemies.

Honestly, that's what I want to see in the next Superman movie. Geoff Johns Nu52 Supes story, featuring Ulysses, would be a great story to be adapted to go that route.

----------


## JediKage

I don't necessarily have a problem with CGI boss battles as long at it fits the movie so for Thor: Ragnarok...I am fine with a CGI battle with Surtur.

The problem with WW for me was more the war stopping after Ares Died seem to contradict the point that all Ares did was nudge them. 

As for Supes...I want Braniac. But there are rumors of Superman vs Black Adam so that could be interesting.

----------


## Punisher007

Except that I feel that people who think that the war ended because Ares was dead, were kind of not paying attention to the context.  It's funny, people like to defend BVS for being "subtle" in it's approach and not spelling things out for people.  But when WW does something similar, it "contradicts the message" or something.

----------


## JediKage

Subtle has nothing to do with it, Subjectivity is what matters here.

Also that doesn't apply to me at all since I never defended BvS for being "Subtle".

----------


## dianafan1985

> Oh god, I didn't know SS 2 was happening lmao


LOLLLL, my sentiments exactly.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I have said it in the WW forum, DC/WB do not make the final battle for WW 2 a dark, cgi slugfest.


I actually didn't mind the CGI "slugfest" between Ares and Diana.

----------


## JediKage

I don't see why you guys are surprised about SSII....it made over 700+ with no China.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I don't see why you guys are surprised about SSII....it made over 700+ with no China.


They could have made a billion dollars, it was an awful ass movie. I doubt they are going to be making that much money the second time around, because people's curiosities have been peaked.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I find it funny how people think Whedon has an agenda here... When he hasn't tweeted anything JL related yet. He's doing this aa a favour and respect for him. 

Just think the next DCEU film is this year and it's Justice League.... That's crazzyyyy.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't necessarily have a problem with CGI boss battles as long at it fits the movie so for Thor: Ragnarok...I am fine with a CGI battle with Surtur.
> 
> The problem with WW for me was more the war stopping after Ares Died seem to contradict the point that all Ares did was nudge them. 
> 
> As for Supes...I want Braniac. But there are rumors of Superman vs Black Adam so that could be interesting.


I'm not fine with Surtur in a 100min movie, because it'll mean nothing. But I bet it'll get praise by the same people who (rightfully) crapped on Doomsday.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> They could have made a billion dollars, it was an awful ass movie. I doubt they are going to be making that much money the second time around, because people's curiosities have been peaked.


It probably would've with China.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I find it funny how people think Whedon has an agenda here... When he hasn't tweeted anything JL related yet. He's doing this aa a favour and respect for him. 
> 
> Just think the next DCEU film is this year and it's Justice League.... That's crazzyyyy.


I'm worried because I don't know if this will be a WWZ/Rogue One situation or a BvS/SS situation. The movie was already being written to be more uplifting, and fun, prior to the release of BvS, but WB might overreact again. The $25mil of reshoots seems to make that seem more likely.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It probably would've with China.


Also, if the sequel is good, and it's following successful DCEU movies, it'll likely make more money.

----------


## El_Gato

> They could have made a billion dollars, it was an awful ass movie. I doubt they are going to be making that much money the second time around, because people's curiosities have been peaked.


You'd be surprised. Squad took over pop culture for a cool minute and I expect the sequel to make a killing at the box office, especially if the story is better this time!

 A property that makes 745 million world wide without China is not something you just sit on! WB is a business afterall...

----------


## Elmo

> For the other heroes lol Wonder Woman just made 800+ million world wide (or that's where it's heading at least). A sequel was innevitable haha... So its looking like this for 2019:
> 
> April: Shazam
> July: Suicide Squad 2
> December: Wonder Woman 2


The Batman as well

----------


## dianafan1985

> You'd be surprised. Squad took over pop culture for a cool minute and I expect the sequel to make a killing at the box office, especially if the story is better this time!


I *WOULD* be surprised, because if they churn out the same disjointed/incoherent nonsense like the last time, I don't think they are going to survive.

----------


## Black_Adam

I'm just really curious about this Shazam movie, what direction they go with him, how he fits into the DCEU especially in a post JL world, hope we get some casting news soon.




> I find it funny how people think Whedon has an agenda here... When he hasn't tweeted anything JL related yet. He's doing this aa a favour and respect for him. 
> 
> Just think the next DCEU film is this year and it's Justice League.... That's crazzyyyy.


Yes it is utterly ridiculous some of these rumours, that Whedon trying to push Zack's style out, that he is demanding a director credit for the movie... I'm sorry I don't believe it for a second, he has never struck me as that sort of person and given what happened on AoU he of all people knows the pitfalls of directing for a big studio. Like you said he has deliberately stayed out of the spotlight with JL and I'm sure WB would of loved him onstage at SDCC.

----------


## Elmo

Yeah, it seemed Ray Fisher deliberately went out of his way to not mention Joss during the panel. There was a moment where he was talking about Zack, and mentioned that "he brought someone great to take over" without mentioning anyone by name, probably to keep the spotlight on Zack since he knew if he mentioned the name "Joss Whedon" the crowd would've gone nuts.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't necessarily have a problem with CGI boss battles as long at it fits the movie so for Thor: Ragnarok...I am fine with a CGI battle with Surtur.
> 
> The problem with WW for me was more the war stopping after Ares Died seem to contradict the point that all Ares did was nudge them. 
> 
> As for Supes...I want Braniac. But there are rumors of Superman vs Black Adam so that could be interesting.


The war didn't end because Ares was defeated. At least not the way you seem to be suggesting that it did. 

If you paid attention, the movie very clearly spells it out for us that the Germans were already effectively defeated. The Kaiser was leaning toward signing the Armistice. Luddendorf's chemical attack was meant to be a last, desperate effort to convince the Kaiser that Germany could still win the war. When it failed, so failed the last thing that could've convinced the Kaiser to not sign the Armistice. The war didn't end because Ares died and his magical control over the Germans stopped. The war ended because the Kaiser saw no alternative but to sign the Armistice. 

Why did the Germans stop fighting at the air field? Why WOULDN'T they stop fighting? The plane they were supposed to protect and the new weapons with which it was equipped were destroyed. There was nothing left for them to fight for. Did you notice how young those soldiers were? They were practically kids. Kids who had suffered the horrors of war for who-knows-how-long and who had just witnessed two no-BS gods fighting it out for the fate of humanity. After seeing everything they've seen and after having nothing left to fight for, it makes perfect sense that they would just decide to be grateful that they were alive and put down their weapons.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I *WOULD* be surprised, because if they churn out the same disjointed/incoherent nonsense like the last time, I don't think they are going to survive.


Pretty good incentive to NOT repeat the mistakes of the past, then. And since WB is showing that they are perfectly capable of learning from past mistakes, I see no reason to be worried about it.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Mark Hughes and a colleague on JL's reshooting: https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/890050952304230400

20 minutes of new footages to replaces Snyder's scenes or adds to them, the reshoots are about 1/8 of the movie runtime.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Mark Hughes and a colleague on JL's reshooting: https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/890050952304230400
> 
> 20 minutes of new footages to replaces Snyder's scenes or adds to them, the reshoots are about 1/8 of the movie runtime.


That seems reasonable.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Mark Hughes and a colleague on JL's reshooting: https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/890050952304230400
> 
> 20 minutes of new footages to replaces Snyder's scenes or adds to them, the reshoots are about 1/8 of the movie runtime.


I don't know about anyone else, but that's definitely not MY definition of "Extensive."

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't know about anyone else, but that's definitely not MY definition of "Extensive."


I wonder what they were changing up "in a meaningful way". Clearly something Zack had in mind already. Maybe more Wonder Woman or something.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yeah, it seemed Ray Fisher deliberately went out of his way to not mention Joss during the panel. There was a moment where he was talking about Zack, and mentioned that "he brought someone great to take over" without mentioning anyone by name, probably to keep the spotlight on Zack since he knew if he mentioned the name "Joss Whedon" the crowd would've gone nuts.


Fisher did mention Joss by name. Something to the effect of "they've been brief, if anything. Joss has been great, Zach brought in a great guy to come in, and clean up for us".


Edit: 15:37 mark

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The war didn't end because Ares was defeated. At least not the way you seem to be suggesting that it did. 
> 
> If you paid attention, the movie very clearly spells it out for us that the Germans were already effectively defeated. The Kaiser was leaning toward signing the Armistice. Luddendorf's chemical attack was meant to be a last, desperate effort to convince the Kaiser that Germany could still win the war. When it failed, so failed the last thing that could've convinced the Kaiser to not sign the Armistice. The war didn't end because Ares died and his magical control over the Germans stopped. The war ended because the Kaiser saw no alternative but to sign the Armistice. 
> 
> Why did the Germans stop fighting at the air field? Why WOULDN'T they stop fighting? The plane they were supposed to protect and the new weapons with which it was equipped were destroyed. There was nothing left for them to fight for. Did you notice how young those soldiers were? They were practically kids. Kids who had suffered the horrors of war for who-knows-how-long and who had just witnessed two no-BS gods fighting it out for the fate of humanity. After seeing everything they've seen and after having nothing left to fight for, it makes perfect sense that they would just decide to be grateful that they were alive and put down their weapons.


Yep. Armistice was mentioned...what...a dozen times in the film? David Thewlis' character (the parliament one :P) mentions multiple times how "this cannot affect the armistice", "armistice is upon us", etc. The Germans have a meeting on it before getting gassed, etc. The war was on its way to ending by the time Diana arrived in London. Obviously Luddendorf had other plans, but it was still close to ending.

----------


## Dominick1216

> I'm just really curious about this Shazam movie, what direction they go with him, how he fits into the DCEU especially in a post JL world, hope we get some casting news soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is utterly ridiculous some of these rumours, that Whedon trying to push Zack's style out, that he is demanding a director credit for the movie... I'm sorry I don't believe it for a second, he has never struck me as that sort of person and given what happened on AoU he of all people knows the pitfalls of directing for a big studio. Like you said he has deliberately stayed out of the spotlight with JL and I'm sure WB would of loved him onstage at SDCC.


I think the only direction they can go with the Shazam movie, is an origins story, perhaps the New 52 version. I can also picture Superman appearing in the film, and maybe him and Billy will have a mentor/student type of relationship eventually.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Diana is constantly saying that by killing Ares the war stops and it ultimately does when Ares dies. Regardless of the intention, Diana is ultimately right, just not on the specifics of the plane. So while war obviously continues over the years since, WWI while was going to end anyways, Ares was just prolonging things and Diana stops his war extension.

This whole thing can go both ways which kind of undercuts what Ares was trying to do. Yeah Ares didn't start it but he made for damn sure that the whole thing would get infinitely worse and tried to extend things. Diana's role of stopping Ares is fulfilled and conveniently timed, as Ares was working a little passed the armistice, which is probably why it rubbed audiences the wrong way. The message is here, but it's still a big bad guy who is manipulating this war that Diana has to stop. The fighting of course stops when the bad guy manipulating things dies which detracts from the point the movie is trying to get across.

----------


## Punisher007

No it really doesn't.  The fighting was going to stop anyway.  Ares was banking on the idea that the armistice wouldn't hold, but it held for 20 years or so as we know.  That's also why Gen. Ludendorff and Dr. Poison were so desperate to put their plan into action like right then, they'd run out of time.  The Armistice HAD NOT been signed by the time Ares was beaten (there's even "negotiations" mentioned multiple times) so he WASN'T "working past the Armistice."

There is no "contradiction" in the message.  There just isn't.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Diana is constantly saying that by killing Ares the war stops and it ultimately does when Ares dies. Regardless of the intention, Diana is ultimately right, just not on the specifics of the plane. So while war obviously continues over the years since, WWI while was going to end anyways, Ares was just prolonging things and Diana stops his war extension.
> 
> This whole thing can go both ways which kind of undercuts what Ares was trying to do. Yeah Ares didn't start it but he made for damn sure that the whole thing would get infinitely worse and tried to extend things. Diana's role of stopping Ares is fulfilled and conveniently timed, as Ares was working a little passed the armistice, which is probably why it rubbed audiences the wrong way. The message is here, but it's still a big bad guy who is manipulating this war that Diana has to stop. The fighting of course stops when the bad guy manipulating things dies which detracts from the point the movie is trying to get across.


Diana said that if she killed Ares his hold on the Germans would be broken and they would become good men again. She was wrong. Ares had no hold on the Germans or anyone else and plenty of soldiers on all sides of WWI weren't good men before, and didn't become good men after, Ares' defeat. She lassoed that one spy and told him "You're obviously under his control. Let me help you get free." She was wrong. He wasn't under anyone's control. He was a spy, doing what he felt he needed to in service to his country. Being wrapped in the Lasso of Truth did not magically change him. When Steve stopped Diana from killing Luddendorf, she claimed Ares had corrupted him too. She was wrong. Steve was not under Ares' control.

Diana was not talking about defeating Ares somehow thwarting his last-ditch attempt to prolong and escalate the war. She explicitly stated her belief that the war was only going on because Ares was mind whammying the entire human race into committing these horrible atrocities on each other. She explicitly stated that she believed that human beings were innately good and noble creatures and it was only due to the influence of an outside force that we were even capable of doing the things we were doing in WWI. She explicitly stated that killing Ares would stop everything. 

None of her predictions came to pass. Ares was NOT controlling the human race. Human beings are NOT innately good and noble. Killing Ares did NOT end WWI and all future human wars. The message was as clear as day: Diana was wrong about a great many things.

----------


## Clark_Kent

From Henry Cavill's facebook (it's probably run by assistants, or maybe even just a fansite, but it posts actual messages from him a lot)...this is pretty funny. 2 pictures incoming: 

IMG_3123.jpg

----------


## Clark_Kent

Pic 2: 

IMG_3124.jpg

----------


## Clark_Kent

I saw someone on the Superman board the other day claim that Henry is dissatisfied & will probably leave the role soon & only be a producer on future Superman films...posts like the above tell me that Henry is a good natured, funny dude who seems to be having a good time. He loves playing the character (according to interviews), and people who meet him on the street say he's like a real-life Superman. Polite, funny, and will spend a good part of his private time posing for pics and signing autographs.

Anyway, the post about him being dissatisfied rubbed me the wrong way, I guess. I've seen interviews where he says he's just humbled that he gets to go to work and make movies. Not your typical Hollywood celeb, anyway. 

Ok, I'm done ranting :P just had to get that off my chest.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I don't see why you guys are surprised about SSII....it made over 700+ with no China.


It was ass that's why lol. But there is a reason why shitty flicks like Transformers and Fast and Furious are still around, so there's that.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I quite enjoyed SS (shrug). The ending battle was a mess, but I enjoyed the interaction between the characters. I think it's because I walked into it with the same mindset as I did both Avengers movies, and the same for JL in November: when I go to see a team film, I'm going for the character interactions and camaraderie. If there's a good story, great. If not, as long as the characters interact well I'm very happy. The Squad had chemistry for days, and I found that very enjoyable. The story was ok, not great; but I thought the same for Both Avengers flicks too. The character interactions in Avengers is what made that work, in my opinion. I felt Age of Ultron, outside of the hammer lifting competition, was lacking in the good interactions category so I didn't enjoy it as much as the first. 

If SS2 can recreate the camaraderie of the cast, then sign me up for day 1! Can't wait.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Collider:
"Jared Leto is circling Bloodshot, so could he be done with The Joker?".
Again someone tell me there isn't an agenda in the media regarding the DCEU? An actor starring in another film oh no.

----------


## Pinsir

You would have thought that the success of Wonder Woman would have put to rest all the 'DCEU is doomed!' crap, but it seems to have gotten worse now!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> You would have thought that the success of Wonder Woman would have put to rest all the 'DCEU is doomed!' crap, but it seems to have gotten worse now!


I seem to recall a lot of doom & gloom the past couple years, RIGHT after SDCC. It's like DC comes in, has a great show, people are excited for a few hours, and then doom & gloom sets in. I mean, it happens throughout the year, but it seems especially bad at  comic con time.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

New rumour: David Ayer to no longer direct "Gotham City Sirens"

I say cancel the entire movie if this is true (doubt it is though). While representation is important, I don't see how this movie is even necessary

----------


## Thomas Crown

> I seem to recall a lot of doom & gloom the past couple years, RIGHT after SDCC. It's like DC comes in, has a great show, people are excited for a few hours, and then doom & gloom sets in. I mean, it happens throughout the year, but it seems especially bad at  comic con time.


You know, after everything Zack Snyder and his family went though, I really thought that journalists and bloggers would start to show some empathy and give a rest to the clickbaiting and vitriolic hatred. Unfortunately, I was wrong.

----------


## Carabas

> New rumour: David Ayer to no longer direct "Gotham City Sirens"
> 
> I say cancel the entire movie if this is true (doubt it is though). While representation is important, I don't see how this movie is even necessary


It's the only one of the many, many projected DCEU movies I was interested in, except for Wonder Woman 2.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> New rumour: David Ayer to no longer direct "Gotham City Sirens"
> 
> I say cancel the entire movie if this is true (doubt it is though). While representation is important, I don't see how this movie is even necessary


Yeah, that rumor hit just before SDCC started. Then, at the Con, Ayer talked about it and his reasons for wanting to do it lol 

At this point, I don't think any rumors (positive or negative) should be believed at all until an official announcement by WB or the creators involved is made. But then, we'll still have people cry foul (i.e., Affleck denying leaving and nobody believes him).

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yeah, that rumor hit just before SDCC started. Then, at the Con, Ayer talked about it and his reasons for wanting to do it lol 
> 
> At this point, I don't think any rumors (positive or negative) should be believed at all until an official announcement by WB or the creators involved is made. But then, we'll still have people cry foul (i.e., Affleck denying leaving and nobody believes him).


He also took shots at WB. Something to the effect of, "With Bright, I wasn't forced to make a generic PG-13 movie for an overbearing studio." The only PG-13 movie he's ever made was Suicide Squad.

----------


## dianafan1985

> Pretty good incentive to NOT repeat the mistakes of the past, then. And since WB is showing that they are perfectly capable of learning from past mistakes, I see no reason to be worried about it.


I won't be "worried" about this (even though I was not worried about this) until Suicide Squad 2 comes out, and it turns out to be a smashing success. Otherwise, it is more than reasonable to be skeptical given 2 consecutive DC films (Suicide Squad being the worse out of the two) which were disjointed disasters. 

After Justice League becomes a success, then my skepticism about DC films as a whole, will disappear.

Wonder Woman, of course, was an exceptional situation because they added Patty Jenkins to the mix.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> He also took shots at WB. Something to the effect of, "With Bright, I wasn't forced to make a generic PG-13 movie for an overbearing studio." The only PG-13 movie he's ever made was Suicide Squad.


Ayer's a good director and if superheroes (or villains) aren't what he's passionate about I'd rather watch him leave and do more crime or war flicks. I'd rather have no Deadshot, Croc, Katana and Diablo in SS 2. Not because they're minorities but because they weren't interesting to begin with or they butchered their characterization. The Squad can have rotating members even more so than the JL. Bronze Tiger, Manta, Duchess, King Shark all of them more interesting than the 1st team's rogues. Please no Rick Flag anymore, make it Bronze Tiger or some disgraced superhero as field leader.

----------


## dianafan1985

> I don't know about anyone else, but that's definitely not MY definition of "Extensive."


It can be described as "extensive" if Whedon has changed significant things/scenes during those 20 minutes, and how extensive these changes are can only be judged after the movie has been released.

----------


## dianafan1985

On a different tangent, if JL turns out to be a success, I really would love to see other characters from Apokolips appear in future films such as Granny Goodness, Big Barda, The Furies. DC has so many interesting characters to flesh out, even more than Marvel (in my humble opinion), it just seems like the potential for them to be even better than Marvel is greater.  They could EASILY create a legendary franchise which rivals Star Wars based upon all the diverse characters that they have at their disposal.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> On a different tangent, if JL turns out to be a success, I really would love to see other characters from Apokolips appear in future films such as Granny Goodness, Big Barda, The Furies. DC has so many interesting characters to flesh out, even more than Marvel (in my humble opinion), it just seems like the potential for them to be even better than Marvel is greater.  They could EASILY create a legendary franchise which rivals Star Wars based upon all the diverse characters that they have at their disposal.


A 4th world movie would be amazing IMO. It has its own pocket of the universe.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> A 4th world movie would be amazing IMO. It has its own pocket of the universe.


That is my dream...

I personally wasn't a fan of Suicide Squad. I thought there was some good stuff in there but ultimately I thought it was a pointless mess. A New Gods movie would have been so much fun. People will probably say it's too similar to Guardians or something because it's cosmic and no one has ever heard of it, but who cares!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> He also took shots at WB. Something to the effect of, "With Bright, I wasn't forced to make a generic PG-13 movie for an overbearing studio." The only PG-13 movie he's ever made was Suicide Squad.


I hadn't heard that part. If he really said that, then I got news for him lol No way GCS would be above a PG-13. 

He seemed fine with the generic-ness at Comic Con the last 2 years...but that might have been before WB edited it for him.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Yeah, that rumor hit just before SDCC started. Then, at the Con, Ayer talked about it and his reasons for wanting to do it lol 
> 
> At this point, I don't think any rumors (positive or negative) should be believed at all until an official announcement by WB or the creators involved is made. But then, we'll still have people cry foul (i.e., Affleck denying leaving and nobody believes him).


Oh it's not new? My bad. Didn't mean to start anything. I saw David Ayer talking about the movie too so I was wondering why this was coming out now. Anyway, that's good I guess

----------


## Rogue Star

> From Henry Cavill's facebook (it's probably run by assistants, or maybe even just a fansite, but it posts actual messages from him a lot)...this is pretty funny. 2 pictures incoming: 
> 
> Attachment 52108


That was hilarious.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> He also took shots at WB. Something to the effect of, "With Bright, I wasn't forced to make a generic PG-13 movie for an overbearing studio." The only PG-13 movie he's ever made was Suicide Squad.


Actually, it's more likely he was talking about Universal, with whom he had a falling out a few weeks before SDCC because they wanted him to make a PG-13 remake of "Scarface". But, of course, clickbait sites conveniently forgot about this when they started to push this narrative about him leaving "Gotham City Sirens".

----------


## Bukdiah

> Collider:
> "Jared Leto is circling ‘Bloodshot’, so could he be done with The Joker?".
> Again someone tell me there isn't an agenda in the media regarding the DCEU? An actor starring in another film oh no.


Oh wow, I don't follow Valiant comics, only kinda aware of them. Did not know they had their own movies coming out. One can imagine that would take away from his other projects though like the Joker role if he's signed up for multiple films. It's fair speculation IMO.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Actually, it's more likely he was talking about Universal, with whom he had a falling out a few weeks before SDCC because they wanted him to make PG-13 remake of "Scarface". But, of course, clickbait sites conveniently forgot about this when they started to push this narrative about him leaving "Gotham City Sirens".


Now that, there, makes more sense. 

So yeah, I'm going to stick with my earlier comment: speculation/discussion on rumors is cool, but I refuse from now on to believe anything positive OR negative about DCEU films until official announcements are made. I'm going to start a movement or something lol

----------


## Troian

> The last two Star Wars films have taken advantage of a dearth of competition in December, to great success.
> 
> Hopefully WW 2 can do the same.


WW in theory, is gonna be competiting against Frozen 2 and I believe Wicked and or some other live action Disney musical remake. plus by that time there will likely other family friendly movies as well. So I would not call December 2019 barren.

----------


## Troian

> The war didn't end because Ares was defeated. At least not the way you seem to be suggesting that it did.


Ares was the one who nudged Dr Posion, Luddendorf, the other Germans, etc and gave them suggestions for the gas, the supply of weird pills, motivation to continue fighting, etc. He stirred the pot and without him it is likely that Luddendorf would lose his supply of pills and Dr Posion may not have perfected her gas in time. With Ares dead at the hands of WW he could no longer give anyone ideas. It is very likely that if WW had died and Ares had lived, even with the gas blown up, Ares would have just found some idea, found ways to motivate/manipulate others to continue fighting or done it himself to continue WW1. His death was needed, among other factors. 

I'm not saying it was all Ares fault but his death was needed to end part of the war. 

Anyways, I wouldn't miss Jared Leto as Joker if he decides to stop. I like his music and I like some of his movies but I did not like his take on Joker.

----------


## Buried Alien

> WW in theory, is gonna be competiting against Frozen 2 and I believe Wicked and or some other live action Disney musical remake. plus by that time there will likely other family friendly movies as well. So I would not call December 2019 barren.


There should be another STAR WARS film in December 2019....EPISODE IX?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Troian

> There should be another STAR WARS film in December 2019....EPISODE IX?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Google and IMDB claims right now Star Wars is set for May 2019. Anything could change but atm it looks like Frozen and maybe Wicked is the biggest competition.

----------


## Rogue Star

Oh my glob. Frozen 2? Ugh. I feel like a character that just survived Jaws only to end up in Sharknado. I need a cave to hide in for 2019.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Oh my glob. Frozen 2? Ugh. I feel like a character that just survived Jaws only to end up in Sharknado. I need a cave to hide in for 2019.


I'm a guy and watched Frozen for the first time a while back. It was kinda cool lmao

----------


## Vanguard-01

If WB are smart, they'd better have a couple other primo release dates reserved for WW II. There is a remote possibility that Disney could decide to move Star Wars Episode 9 back to December if the Han Solo movie gives them any reason to think that December is a better time for Star Wars. According to Grace Randolph, Disney does, in fact, have at least one release date reserved for that December already. If they decide to move Star Wars Episode 9, WB better be ready to get Diana away from that slot.

----------


## Buried Alien

> If WB are smart, they'd better have a couple other primo release dates reserved for WW II. There is a remote possibility that Disney could decide to move Star Wars Episode 9 back to December if the Han Solo movie gives them any reason to think that December is a better time for Star Wars. According to Grace Randolph, Disney does, in fact, have at least one release date reserved for that December already. If they decide to move Star Wars Episode 9, WB better be ready to get Diana away from that slot.


Yeah...wonderful though Diana might be, NOBODY beats the STAR WARS behemoth at the box office.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Confuzzled

> From Henry Cavill's facebook (it's probably run by assistants, or maybe even just a fansite, but it posts actual messages from him a lot)...this is pretty funny. 2 pictures incoming: 
> 
> Attachment 52108


Lol it could actually be him. He has said in interviews that he loves reading high fantasy novels so he is an awesome geek in many ways  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Confuzzled

> If WB are smart, they'd better have a couple other primo release dates reserved for WW II. There is a remote possibility that Disney could decide to move Star Wars Episode 9 back to December if the Han Solo movie gives them any reason to think that December is a better time for Star Wars. According to Grace Randolph, Disney does, in fact, have at least one release date reserved for that December already. If they decide to move Star Wars Episode 9, WB better be ready to get Diana away from that slot.


I believe WB set two dates in 2020 for DCEU films: Valentine's weekend and the first weekend of June. Either would be fine for Diana.

----------


## JediKage

> I hadn't heard that part. If he really said that, then I got news for him lol No way GCS would be above a PG-13. 
> 
> He seemed fine with the generic-ness at Comic Con the last 2 years...but that might have been before WB edited it for him.


No one wants to be Josh Trank.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I'm a guy and watched Frozen for the first time a while back. It was kinda cool lmao


I watched it with my 10 year old sister at the time, and she got bored. She then proceeded to turn off, while I was zoned out lol.

----------


## Black_Adam

Ayer posted this on Twitter today, but let the bloggers keep saying he's off Gotham City Sirens *yawn*.

Twitter Harley.jpg

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

More from Hughes about the reshoots: https://mobile.twitter.com/markhughe...74531549622272

"Actually that's what I reported a/b it a/b 2 months ago -- new scenes lightening tone more, adding more specifics, & connective tissue. & back then lots of folks insisted I was wrong, saying it's reshoots to change/remake most of film. Which I said wasn't true, & it isn't."

"Exactly, it seems clear that all hands on deck are putting the quality & success of JL ahead of all other considerations, which is GREAT. Rather than "meddling" to change story or other things fans & filmmakers worry a/b etc, this is entirely "make it as good as possible" plan. Fans who worry it's like what went on w/BvS or SS (changes to meet exec expectations) can relax, it's a different situation, I assure you!"

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Actually, it's more likely he was talking about Universal, with whom he had a falling out a few weeks before SDCC because they wanted him to make a PG-13 remake of "Scarface". But, of course, clickbait sites conveniently forgot about this when they started to push this narrative about him leaving "Gotham City Sirens".


Pretty sure David Ayer is still on for Gotham City Sirens.  He tweeted this yesterday.  

DFuPMiFUQAAC_-u.jpg

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I believe WB set two dates in 2020 for DCEU films: Valentine's weekend and the first weekend of June. Either would be fine for Diana.


Yes. Valentine's Day would be just about as good, especially if Patty Jenkins remains in the director's chair. One of the main reasons for this movie's success was the fact that it was designed to appeal to men and women equally. Thus? Wonder Woman is an EXCELLENT date movie. It'll have no trouble crushing that time slot, and I pity any other date movie that comes out around the same time.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> More from Hughes about the reshoots: https://mobile.twitter.com/markhughe...74531549622272
> 
> "Actually that's what I reported a/b it a/b 2 months ago -- new scenes lightening tone more, adding more specifics, & connective tissue. & back then lots of folks insisted I was wrong, saying it's reshoots to change/remake most of film. Which I said wasn't true, & it isn't."
> 
> "Exactly, it seems clear that all hands on deck are putting the quality & success of JL ahead of all other considerations, which is GREAT. Rather than "meddling" to change story or other things fans & filmmakers worry a/b etc, this is entirely "make it as good as possible" plan. Fans who worry it's like what went on w/BvS or SS (changes to meet exec expectations) can relax, it's a different situation, I assure you!"


And that should be pretty much the ONLY reason why you do re-shoots: to make sure you're putting out the best possible product. 

Definitely reassuring to read this.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> And that should be pretty much the ONLY reason why you do re-shoots: to make sure you're putting out the best possible product. 
> 
> Definitely reassuring to read this.


They seem to have learned their lessons.

I'm a little concerned about the runtime (nearly 3 hours) that Hughes referred to in another tweet. I don't want another extended edition in dvd to see the whole movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> They seem to have learned their lessons.
> 
> I'm a little concerned about the runtime (nearly 3 hours) that Hughes referred to in another tweet. I don't want another extended edition in dvd to see the whole movie.


There was a rumor a while back that WB had already decided that Justice League would be as long as it needed to be. If the movie is three hours long, they're releasing a three-hour movie. 

I'm not sure that was ever confirmed, and of course we know that WB is not above reneging on a promise with regard to running time. So we'll have to see how it goes.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> There was a rumor a while back that WB had already decided that Justice League would be as long as it needed to be. If the movie is three hours long, they're releasing a three-hour movie. 
> 
> I'm not sure that was ever confirmed, and of course we know that WB is not above reneging on a promise with regard to running time. So we'll have to see how it goes.


Fingers crossed then.  :Smile: 

With all the money and time they'll spent to digitally remove Henry's mustache, I bet this time they'll keep his scenes in any case.  :Wink:

----------


## Outside_85

> They seem to have learned their lessons.
> 
> I'm a little concerned about the runtime (nearly 3 hours) that Hughes referred to in another tweet. I don't want another extended edition in dvd to see the whole movie.


If they have learned their lesson, they wont let their accountant talk them into shaving half an hour out of the movie and largely ruin it like it did BvS's theatrical version.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Fingers crossed then. 
> 
> With all the money and time they'll spent to digitally remove Henry's mustache, I bet this time they'll keep his scenes in any case.


Must be a ridiculous amount of money to remove that in every scene. I know it costs a lot of money to blur out logos on TV shows lol.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> No it really doesn't.  The fighting was going to stop anyway.  Ares was banking on the idea that the armistice wouldn't hold, but it held for 20 years or so as we know.  That's also why Gen. Ludendorff and Dr. Poison were so desperate to put their plan into action like right then, they'd run out of time.  The Armistice HAD NOT been signed by the time Ares was beaten (there's even "negotiations" mentioned multiple times) so he WASN'T "working past the Armistice."
> 
> There is no "contradiction" in the message.  There just isn't.


Well yes there is...,kind of.
While Diana is ultimately going to stop Ares and make its point about humanity not being what Diana thought it was, the fighting is ultimately over because the villain's plans are foiled. The war is done but Ares is not and Ares is apart of the war situation with him manipulating things. 
What I'm saying is while the movie has it's message, it also unintentionally can be perceived as Diana defeating Ares which stops the fighting. She foils the villain's plans and everybody just gives up (as expected but still coincidentally timed). Sure we just got the message that regardless humanity is going to just do as humanity does, but the manipulator, the devil in the villains ear is defeated as the movie is wrapping up and everybody celebrates victory. It unintentionally gives the broad explanation that Diana was right which is why the ending has rubbed some the wrong way. 

The movie does this which is why it gets brought up as much as it does since it unintentionally has two ways of perceiving the ending.

----------


## Vanguard-01

David F. Sandberg speaks briefly about the Shazam movie here. He doesn't say much, but you can tell his mind is definitely in the right place regarding Shazam. 




> "To keep it general and not go into script details, I'd say the core thing that's appealing to me is the wish fulfillment," said Sandberg. "What kid doesn't want to be Superman? This is a kid that basically gets to become Superman."


https://www.comicbookmovie.com/shaza...perman-a152664

Gotta say, I'm getting excited about this one!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Thomas Crown

> "Actually that's what I reported a/b it a/b 2 months ago -- new scenes lightening tone more"


Oh, boy! This doesn't bode well. Zack and Chris Terrio were talking about "Justice League" having a lighter tone even before "BvS" was released. HOW MUCH lighter Whedon and Johns will take the tone for this movie?

----------


## Elmo

> David F. Sandberg speaks briefly about the Shazam movie here. He doesn't say much, but you can tell his mind is definitely in the right place regarding Shazam. 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/shaza...perman-a152664
> 
> Gotta say, I'm getting excited about this one!


I'm really happy about this. I was worried most of the focus was going to be on whoever they cast as the hero Shazam, but in actuality Billy is the most important character. They need to work on casting him first because whoever they get to play Shazam has to know how to act like an 11-year-old child and make it believable.

----------


## Clark_Kent

If MoS2 isn't announced after JL is out, I wonder if they would have Cavill cameo or co-star in Shazam? It would definitely kill two birds with one stone; it would put Superman out there to capitalize on a (hopefully) well-received return, and his presence might help sell Shazam to audiences who don't know him. Obviously comic films these days still sell to the uninitiated (GotG, SS), but having a team-up wouldn't hurt. Might quell some of the "Superman knockoff" stuff to see the differences between them side by side.

----------


## Carabas

> Oh, boy! This doesn't bode well. Zack and Chris Terrio were talking about "Justice League" having a lighter tone even before "BvS" was released. HOW MUCH lighter Whedon and Johns will take the tone for this movie?


How does it not bode well? Who wants a dark Justice League movie?

----------


## Agent Z

> How does it not bode well? Who wants a dark Justice League movie?


There have been dark Justice League stories. And it is possible to make it too light hearted to the point of being like, well, Batman and Robin

----------


## Dominick1216

> If MoS2 isn't announced after JL is out, I wonder if they would have Cavill cameo or co-star in Shazam? It would definitely kill two birds with one stone; it would put Superman out there to capitalize on a (hopefully) well-received return, and his presence might help sell Shazam to audiences who don't know him. Obviously comic films these days still sell to the uninitiated (GotG, SS), but having a team-up wouldn't hurt. Might quell some of the "Superman knockoff" stuff to see the differences between them side by side.


That's what I think they'll do. Maybe have them eventually form a mentor/student relationship.

And if DC plays it right, they can have the trinity appear in each film in 2019:

-Shazam (Superman)
-Suicide Squad 2 (Batman)
-Wonder Woman II (Wonder Woman)

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> There have been dark Justice League stories. And it is possible to make it too light hearted to the point of being like, well, Batman and Robin


The problem with Batman & Robin wasn't that it was light.  Batman: The Movie in 1966 was light but it was a good movie. Well written, a good plot, great characters that were true to the story.
Batman & Robin failed because it made a joke of the characters, had a muddled plot, the action scenes were a mess, and deviated too far from the world the previous three movies created.

----------


## Bukdiah

> The problem with Batman & Robin wasn't that it was light.  Batman: The Movie in 1966 was light but it was a good movie. Well written, a good plot, great characters that were true to the story.
> Batman & Robin failed because it made a joke of the characters, had a muddled plot, the action scenes were a mess, and deviated too far from the world the previous three movies created.


Killed the franchise so bad, no one wanted to touch it again lol. I read in Weldon's book, The Caped Crusade, that Schumacher wanted to add a scene where the characters had to walk through a ring of fire and told the writers, "Make it happen somehow." Shit was a mess, man.

----------


## Pinsir

> The problem with Batman & Robin wasn't that it was light.  Batman: The Movie in 1966 was light but it was a good movie. Well written, a good plot, great characters that were true to the story.
> Batman & Robin failed because it made a joke of the characters, had a muddled plot, the action scenes were a mess, and deviated too far from the world the previous three movies created.


Isn't it generally conceived that Batman Forever is the true stinker of the 90's films? Batman and Robin is fun to watch.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Isn't it generally conceived that Batman Forever is the true stinker of the 90's films? Batman and Robin is fun to watch.


No...very few people have many kind things to say about BATMAN AND ROBIN.  BATMAN FOREVER has its fans.  It was generally rated an "OK" Batman movie...not great, but watchable.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> If they have learned their lesson, they wont let their accountant talk them into shaving half an hour out of the movie and largely ruin it like it did BvS's theatrical version.


Yeah, they couldn't be so stupid to repeat the same mistake, could they?




> Must be a ridiculous amount of money to remove that in every scene. I know it costs a lot of money to blur out logos on TV shows lol.


To be cheap, they could pull a Cesar Romero and put the makeup over Cavill's moustache.  :Wink:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> That's what I think they'll do. Maybe have them eventually form a mentor/student relationship.
> 
> And if DC plays it right, they can have the trinity appear in each film in 2019:
> 
> -Shazam (Superman)
> -Suicide Squad 2 (Batman)
> -Wonder Woman II (Wonder Woman)


The last thing I want to do is take the director's words and look too deep into them, but I think it would make a lot of sense. Perhaps Billy is Kal's #1 fan (posters, toys, etc), or is saved by him. Then, with Superman as his hero, he gets his powers and wants to be like him. It could be a really fun movie with Superman showing him the ropes..."this is how you stop an out of control train", etc. 

It definitely doesn't have to be an "end of the world", "the city is in danger" kind of movie. It could be pretty lighthearted but still have challenges for the heroes to overcome.

----------


## Darkseid Is

This isn't meant to be a mean or pretentious question or anything. I'm actually genuinely curious...

Does anyone like the really dark tone of the DC movies so far?

----------


## Ascended

> This isn't meant to be a mean or pretentious question or anything. I'm actually genuinely curious...
> 
> Does anyone like the really *dark* tone of the DC movies so far?


I dont think this word means what you think it means.  :Smile:  

I dont think the DCEU films are all that dark. They're not happy and bright and full of sunshine and puppies, but "dark"? We're not talking Lovecraft here. 

These films are simply taking the fantastical, high-concept characters we love and inserting them into a world closer to our own, where flying aliens who break all the laws of physics don't get global acceptance just because they smile and save a cat from a tree. That's not dark, its just not humorous. 

Of the DCEU films, I truly, deeply enjoyed Man of Steel (flaws and all) and Wonder Woman (even if it was too safe). I think Suicide Squad was a solid "C" and I think the ideas they were playing with in BvS were interesting but the title fight soured my stomach to such a degree (Im a huge Superman fan) that I cant forgive it. 

The films arent as well put together as the better Marvel movies. They're not the same kind of cheap, empty popcorn entertainment. That doesnt mean the concept they're going for is bad.

----------


## Rogue Star

> This isn't meant to be a mean or pretentious question or anything. I'm actually genuinely curious...
> 
> Does anyone like the really dark tone of the DC movies so far?


When the movie is actually good, yes. BvS was good, not great.  I do wish there was more distinction (and distance) between Metropolis and Gotham, but oh well.  The Dark Knight (because it counts, in my opinion) is the best at what the most recent movies tried to be.

P.S. It's really a moot question because the DCEU is moving past the "dark" tone after Justice League anyway.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Does anyone like the really dark tone of the DC movies so far?


"Man of Steel" has a serious tone, but it's not really a dark movie.

"Batman v Superman" is a dark movie, but its tone fits the story being told.

"Suicide Squad" is a "fun" movie with some darker moments.

"Wonder Woman" balances lighter moments (first half) with darker moments (second half).

So, I think this perception that the DCEU only makes "dark" movies is totally unwarranted.

----------


## Bukdiah

> This isn't meant to be a mean or pretentious question or anything. I'm actually genuinely curious...
> 
> Does anyone like the really dark tone of the DC movies so far?


When I hear the word dark to describe a movie, I think of dreary or even morbid like Saving Private Ryan. DCEU are mostly bad and overly serious to me.

----------


## Dominick1216

> The last thing I want to do is take the director's words and look too deep into them, but I think it would make a lot of sense. Perhaps Billy is Kal's #1 fan (posters, toys, etc), or is saved by him. Then, with Superman as his hero, he gets his powers and wants to be like him. It could be a really fun movie with Superman showing him the ropes..."this is how you stop an out of control train", etc. 
> 
> It definitely doesn't have to be an "end of the world", "the city is in danger" kind of movie. It could be pretty lighthearted but still have challenges for the heroes to overcome.


Exactly. And like you stated earlier, Superman's presence might help people who don't know who Shazam is. I feel like he would be the only one out of the Justice League who would make the most sense to appear in a Shazam movie.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> If they have learned their lesson, they wont let their accountant talk them into shaving half an hour out of the movie and largely ruin it like it did BvS's theatrical version.


I'm really curious how BvS would have been received if WB had actually released Snyder's version of the film, instead of the chopped up mess that made it to theaters.

Honestly, I'm not sure what my feelings would be for the film. I went from absolutely hating the theatrical cut, to loving the director's cut. If I had seen the director's cut first, without the very low bar set by the awful theatrical viewing, would I be as forgiving towards the film as I am now?

Clearly, the film still would have been divisive. The whole "Martha!" bit would still be rightfully mocked and the plot would still be pointlessly convoluted (although it would at least make sense now). I think it's very likely people would be complaining it was waaaay too long  :Wink:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This isn't meant to be a mean or pretentious question or anything. I'm actually genuinely curious...
> 
> Does anyone like the really dark tone of the DC movies so far?


As others have pointed out, I disagree that the DCEU movies are truly "dark."

I have enjoyed all the DCEU movies thus far because I just recognize and appreciate that DC is at least trying to do something different from Marvel. I don't think the movies are as "dark" or "joyless" as some make them out to be, and I find the stories quite enjoyable.

Now that said? I do agree with what some critics say: that the DCEU movies have been lacking a note of optimism and fun. As others have said "Too serious" may be the best description. The success of the MCU makes it pretty clear that fun and optimism are expected in most movies of this genre. Thus? It would be unwise to ignore this reality. The Wonder Woman movie was fun and optimistic and it has been rewarded with critical acclaim and box office numbers that have SHATTERED all expectations. Clearly, there's something there. 

Now does EVERY movie have to be fun and optimistic? No. Batman movies, for example, are expected to be at least kinda dark. I don't think anyone's really advocating for a Batman movie that's basically a return to the Adam West (RIP) show. But for optimistic and hopeful heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman, it does seem like there's a certain expectation from the audience and a backlash seems to occur when those expectations are not met.

----------


## Bukdiah

I think so long as pacing is good and it's of quality stuff, people don't mind longer movies. 2hr and 20-30 minutes is kinda my breaking point to be honest. If it's longer than that, I kinda wonder if they just have superfluous scenes with people meandering lol.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Wonder Woman: Warner Bros. Plans Groundbreaking Oscar Campaign for Director, Best Picture*




> With $781 million in global box office receipts, Wonder Woman has already broken records as the highest-grossing movie directed by a woman ever.
> 
> Now Warner Bros., the studio behind the film, wants the action movie to break another glass ceiling. Although executives havent commented publicly on their plans, they have internally discussed launching a formidable awards-season campaign for the movie, in the hopes of making it the first comic-book film ever nominated for best picture, Variety has learned.


Source

----------


## Starchild

FB_IMG_1501204293654.jpg

I really didn't know that Midnighter was in the back. If they have future movie plans for him, then that's awesome. A lot of my friends in the LGBT community aren't aware of gay superheroes.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm really curious how BvS would have been received if WB had actually released Snyder's version of the film, instead of the chopped up mess that made it to theaters.
> 
> Honestly, I'm not sure what my feelings would be for the film. I went from absolutely hating the theatrical cut, to loving the director's cut. If I had seen the director's cut first, without the very low bar set by the awful theatrical viewing, would I be as forgiving towards the film as I am now?
> 
> Clearly, the film still would have been divisive. The whole "Martha!" bit would still be rightfully mocked and the plot would still be pointlessly convoluted (although it would at least make sense now). I think it's very likely people would be complaining it was waaaay too long


I think the movie would have been better received but I dont think it would have really changed much in the big picture. Of course, I have no idea and am just guessing. And I have my own biases too, of course.

But I think it might've made a bit more money and gotten a marginal increase on rating sites but still not been rated totally fresh, or been seen as a real threat to Marvel's dominance. 

And I dont know if I would have enjoyed it much more than I did. The title fight just kills the whole thing for me. Which makes me sad because I had enjoyed it up to that point.

----------


## MosSuperman

https://twitter.com/Variety/status/890743611633086464

Lol. It was good but come on.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> https://twitter.com/Variety/status/890743611633086464
> 
> Lol. It was good but come on.


Really liked it but wouldn't feel right with Apes 3 being so good.

----------


## BlackClaw

I can see Wonder Woman nabbing the awards for best score, bet original song or best sound effects. But best picture? That's gonna be a long shot. I expect Logan to be a stronger contender for that category.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I can see Wonder Woman nabbing the awards for best score, bet original song or best sound effects. But best picture? That's gonna be a long shot. I expect Logan to be a stronger contender for that category.


Whoo, Logan was dope as hell. All those Western parallels...god damn.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Really liked it but wouldn't feel right with Apes 3 being so good.


Man, I really gotta catch up on those movies. The premise never interested me, but I just hear nothing but good things.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> As others have pointed out, I disagree that the DCEU movies are truly "dark."
> 
> I have enjoyed all the DCEU movies thus far because I just recognize and appreciate that DC is at least trying to do something different from Marvel. I don't think the movies are as "dark" or "joyless" as some make them out to be, and I find the stories quite enjoyable.
> 
> Now that said? I do agree with what some critics say: that the DCEU movies have been lacking a note of optimism and fun. As others have said "Too serious" may be the best description. The success of the MCU makes it pretty clear that fun and optimism are expected in most movies of this genre. Thus? It would be unwise to ignore this reality. The Wonder Woman movie was fun and optimistic and it has been rewarded with critical acclaim and box office numbers that have SHATTERED all expectations. Clearly, there's something there. 
> 
> Now does EVERY movie have to be fun and optimistic? No. Batman movies, for example, are expected to be at least kinda dark. I don't think anyone's really advocating for a Batman movie that's basically a return to the Adam West (RIP) show. But for optimistic and hopeful heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman, it does seem like there's a certain expectation from the audience and a backlash seems to occur when those expectations are not met.


I just mean dark for the subject matter. I'm not comparing these movie to A Serbian Film or Last House on the Left or anything really sick shit.

It is true that Batman V Superman may have tainted my views on the other movies. Right off the bat we see people in the desert with bags over their heads on their knees. Reminds me of a beheading video. Then we see the photos of Martha with her mouth tied and stuff written on her forehead like some kind of rape movie. It's just so bizarre to me to see that kind of stuff in a super hero movie.

All that being said... I actually liked Batman V Superman. I just wish there was more of a contrast between Batman and Superman. Superman is so depressed. When we see him saving people they go back and forth from realistic news clips of people trashing him and play depressing music.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Man, I really gotta catch up on those movies. The premise never interested me, but I just hear nothing but good things.


Check the first one. The 2nd is even better and the 3rd is at least as good. 

Did you never watch the classics?

----------


## Bukdiah

> Check the first one. The 2nd is even better and the 3rd is at least as good. 
> 
> Did you never watch the classics?


Never. A lot of the stuff was before my time. I'm in my 20s. I was never a sci-fi/fantasy guy either.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> *‘Wonder Woman’: Warner Bros. Plans Groundbreaking Oscar Campaign for Director, Best Picture*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


I think we'd all guess it has no shot, but then none of us thought it would be as successful as it is (though we had hope). 

I say if they want to give it a shot, go for it. Even if it didn't win any "big" awards, it might join Suicide Squad as another DCEU Oscar winner...and then we can watch everyone snipe at it saying it doesn't count because it's a small award lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *Wonder Woman: Warner Bros. Plans Groundbreaking Oscar Campaign for Director, Best Picture*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


Yeah, I doubt it'll win Best Picture and/or Best Director. If it does win, it'll likely be due to awards politics. 

Still? Even if it doesn't win, it'll be great if we can even secure a nomination. If we can call Wonder Woman "The Oscar-nominated Movie" that's still good exposure.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Campaigning for Oscars with Wonder Woman is just good marketing, being political and having good timing. I would really like Sia's "To Be Human" to get nominated though. I love that song.

I mean I love the movie but come on now

----------


## JediKage

The Academy never gives Comic Book Movies these noms...that said maybe Patty can snag a Director nom.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Campaigning for Oscars with Wonder Woman is just good marketing, being political and having good timing. I would really like Sia's "To Be Human" to get nominated though. I love that song.
> 
> I mean I love the movie but come on now


Win no. But a Best Picture nomination would be prestigious and a major breakthrough for superhero movies in itself.




> The Academy never gives Comic Book Movies these noms...that said maybe Patty can snag a Director nom.


The controversy over snubbing The Dark Knight was why the Academy increased the Best Picture nominations from 5 to 9-10 in the first place. After that, I think it was a simple matter of not finding any of the CBMs released after The Dark Knight to be as good as it was. This year though, there are two strong contenders: Logan and Wonder Woman. I think Diana has stolen a lot of Logan's thunder though.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> This isn't meant to be a mean or pretentious question or anything. I'm actually genuinely curious...
> 
> Does anyone like the really dark tone of the DC movies so far?


Well, the DCEU movies aren't really dark. This isn't Dunkirk, we're talking about.

The DCEU is simply the DC heroes in our world, and all the moral complexities that make it up. Those DC heroes have also grown up in our world, and thus have realistic nuances.

A 20 year veteran Batman has PTSD, and is at a moral, and mental, crossroad because he's a soldier who's been fighting a futile war for 20 years, with no success. In the real world, of course he begins doubt the point of his mission, or becomes jaded. Now there's an alien that can not only wipe out humanity, but is a hero that makes that soldier seem obsolete with the scope of his ability to save lives.

There's lots of subtle storytelling that goes on in these DCEU movies (minus SS), that people over look because it's not what they expected, or wanted.

So yes, I do like the tone of the DCEU...at least for now, because all that is getting thrown out the window to be more fun, and crowd pleasing, rather than complex character studies. I don't mind Shazam being that, but Black Adam needs to be a complex deconstruction of what it means to a slave turned god turned king turned villain.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> *Wonder Woman: Warner Bros. Plans Groundbreaking Oscar Campaign for Director, Best Picture*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


Good lord, no. The movie is good, but is no where near Oscar worthy. Logan is still, easily, the best CBM of the year, and has the best shot for stuff like makeup, acting, and maybe SFX (that CGI Logan double is amazing).

If DoFP, and TDK, didn't get nominated than this one shouldn't even be considered, tbh.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I just mean dark for the subject matter. I'm not comparing these movie to A Serbian Film or Last House on the Left or anything really sick shit.
> 
> It is true that Batman V Superman may have tainted my views on the other movies. Right off the bat we see people in the desert with bags over their heads on their knees. Reminds me of a beheading video. Then we see the photos of Martha with her mouth tied and stuff written on her forehead like some kind of rape movie. It's just so bizarre to me to see that kind of stuff in a super hero movie.
> 
> All that being said... I actually liked Batman V Superman. I just wish there was more of a contrast between Batman and Superman. Superman is so depressed. When we see him saving people they go back and forth from realistic news clips of people trashing him and play depressing music.


Well that's what our world contains. What do you think it would look like if the Joker kidnapped someone in real li- oh yeah, TDK does exist. 

When this stuff is put in a serious light, it's going to look uncomfortable and scary in some cases. To see a falling building, and know that there are people in said building, and people are about to get crushed is haunting. Even moreso because they just happen to be collateral damage to a battle between their hero and the opposition.

The DCEU goes even further tho, and has those civilians matter. The Kents have a huge impact on their son, and he still looks to them for advice. The opinion of the people actually affect the way the heroes see themselves. That makes the world grounded, and thus I care about the girl Supes saves from that burning building, or the people he saves from the flood, or the wife of the criminal Bats branded.

The MCU only makes me care about the hero, not about the world they save, and thus what they do ultimately doesn't matter to me, because not much was at stake in the first place. I know I'm supposed to care about the hero, but the hero is sacrificing themselves for a reason, right? If the people they save don't matter, and don't have a voice, they're wasting their time.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If DoFP, and TDK, didn't get nominated than this one shouldn't even be considered, tbh.


TDK was considered. It got left out because there were only 5 nominations back then. They increased the number of Best Picture nominations so that films like TDK don't get left out.

I think DoFP works best for audiences who were invested in the X-Films from the beginning. I don't think it was as new audience friendly as Wonder Woman is, the same and biggest advantage WW has over Logan.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

The DCEU Superman having a no kill morality means more because the lives at stake matter to him. He's shown saving the lives of people who love, and hate, him. He's shown to have to make tough decisions, that matter.

Him simply being that guy, automatically, like people want him to literally makes no sense character, or storytelling, wise; regardless of the character. If we're to give a damn about the rule, we need to see why the rule is created, and enforced, by the character. Why is this so important? 

Batman's logic of "crossing the line = becoming just like the bad guy", now makes far more sense in the context of his character, because he became the villain of his story. So for him, we now know why he'd be so adamant against the Red Hood.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> TDK was considered. It got left out because there were only 5 nominations back then. They increased the number of Best Picture nominations so that films like TDK don't get left out.
> 
> I think DoFP works best for audiences who were invested in the X-Films from the beginning. I don't think it is as new audience friendly as Wonder Woman, the same and biggest advantage it has over Logan.


Well, Mad Max Fury Road didn't get nominated, and it was better than WW. Honestly, the only future CBMs with Oscar potential are Matt Reeves' Batman, or maybe the Black Adam movie (depending on the director).

In terms of othe nerd/geek films, maybe Blade Runner 2049, because David Villanueva has been batting his films out of the park from the jump. I hope he does a DCEU film at some point. Maybe Superman, or something New Gods related?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Well, Mad Max Fury Road didn't get nominated, and it was better than WW.


It was nominated lol

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Oscars who really cares? It's a waste of time. We all know some film about the financial crisis starring a big name is gonna win it. 

I love WW but to me the Oscars lost that "omg the oscars" vibe for me long agoooo.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Oscars who really cares? It's a waste of time. We all know some film about the financial crisis starring a big name is gonna win it. 
> 
> I love WW but to me the Oscars lost that "omg the oscars" vibe for me long agoooo.


It's still going to be a big deal for the DCEU going forward if WW scored some major nominations and maybe even some wins in the technical categories like Best Costuming.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It was nominated lol


Oh yeah, lol.

----------


## ekrolo2

Logan is the only comic book movie since TDK to deserve an Oscar award, as much as I like Wonder Woman, it's not anywhere close to Logan's level.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Logan is the only comic book movie since TDK to deserve an Oscar award, as much as I like Wonder Woman, it's not anywhere close to Logan's level.


People won't feel the full impact of Logan if they haven't been following the X-Men films over the past 17 years. Wonder Woman is stronger as a standalone.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Never. A lot of the stuff was before my time. I'm in my 20s. I was never a sci-fi/fantasy guy either.


So am I but I like to reach back. Aspects of them are dated but a few of them are my favorite movies. You don't have to like those to like these, but the classics have a different feel and do what sci-fi is supposed to do, which is make you believe that world is not only believable but possible and maybe one day knocking at your door, and shows you how human society might behave in a different context. I got straight goosebumps watching them at times.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Oscars who really cares? It's a waste of time. We all know some film about the financial crisis starring a big name is gonna win it. 
> 
> I love WW but to me the Oscars lost that "omg the oscars" vibe for me long agoooo.


The people that made the films care, but Oscars lost their appeal to me as a consumer a while back as well. It was lul-worthy that SS got an award because Croc looked silly as hell lol.

----------


## Bukdiah

> So am I but I like to reach back. Aspects of them are dated but a few of them are my favorite movies. You don't have to like those to like these, but the classics have a different feel and do what sci-fi is supposed to do, which is make you believe that world is not only believable but possible and maybe one day knocking at your door, and shows you how human society might behave in a different context. I got straight goosebumps watching them at times.


Yeah, I watch some classics like Hitchcock flicks and 12 Angry Men to experience them. I guess I'll catch the original 1968 Planet of the Apes and give the 2011 and onward a go.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yeah, I watch some classics like Hitchcock flicks and 12 Angry Men to experience them. I guess I'll catch the original 1968 Planet of the Apes and give the 2011 and onward a go.


My favorite is Escape from the Planet of the Apes, but that's not a bad schedule you set up.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Oscars who really cares? It's a waste of time. We all know some film about the financial crisis starring a big name is gonna win it. 
> 
> I love WW but to me the Oscars lost that "omg the oscars" vibe for me long agoooo.


Oh, of course. On a personal level, I don't give a crap about the Oscars. 

However? It IS a rather impressive feather in a film's cap to even get nominated for it. It increases the market value of the movie as a whole and it raises confidence for future installments. If Wonder Woman even gets nominated for Best Picture, that means that WW II will be able to command a higher wage for just about everyone involved in the project. It guarantees a bigger budget for the film and it guarantees that WB will go all out on promoting it. 

There are many advantages to getting even a nomination for a film. Advantages that just might translate into an even better film for us down the road. That's the extent of my interest in this.

----------


## JediKage

Really wouldn't WB/DC do all that for WW anyway? I think its more bragging rights then anything. 

I mean don't get me wrong Awards are great but I don't really awards and not the BO is what is going to determine the size of the budget or the promotion....and I should note more cash aint necessarily a good thing.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Really wouldn't WB/DC do all that for WW anyway? I think its more bragging rights then anything. 
> 
> I mean don't get me wrong Awards are great but I don't really awards and not the BO is what is going to determine the size of the budget or the promotion....and I should note more cash aint necessarily a good thing.


Oh, they'll definitely promote WW II and give it a bigger budget/payroll regardless of whether it gets nominated. But the perception is that even a nomination raises a film's prestige even more than mere financial and critical success. 

Make a successful movie? "Great! Here's your bigger budget/payday for the next one!" 

Make a successful movie that also gets a Best Picture nomination? "Even better! Here! Have even MORE money!" 

Stuff like that. 

But yeah, you're right. Sometimes more money for a movie doesn't really help. One of the truly impressive things about Wonder Woman was the fact that it was relatively low-budget. Lowest budget movie in the DCEU so far, in fact. Too much money and suddenly the temptation exists to blow it all on by-the-numbers-but-visually-appealing VFX and stuff. Could go either way, but I have faith in Patty Jenkins no matter what happens at the Oscars.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Mark Hughes clarifies about the "nearly 3 hr" JL runtime...

"A rough cut was around 2 hrs 40-some minutes, in told, & new footage will add to it but some scenes are also being removed... "

"My understanding is the expected final range is 2 hrs 20 min to 2 hrs 35min, but depends on the new filming."

https://mobile.twitter.com/markhughe...16363463036928

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Deathstroke Actor Joe Manganiello Weighs In On His Involvement With THE BATMAN:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batma...-happy-a152910

----------


## Bukdiah

> Mark Hughes clarifies about the "nearly 3 hr" JL runtime...
> 
> "A rough cut was around 2 hrs 40-some minutes, in told, & new footage will add to it but some scenes are also being removed... "
> 
> "My understanding is the expected final range is 2 hrs 20 min to 2 hrs 35min, but depends on the new filming."
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/markhughe...16363463036928


Whew, hoping that pacing is good. 2 hrs and 20 min is a sweet spot for me.

----------


## Confuzzled

I'm good with 2 hours 35 minutes too. C'mon, it's Justice League. It needs to feel like an epic!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vanguard-01

I'll happily watch a three-hour Justice League movie, but all I care about is that it's well-written, well-paced, and action-packed. 

If they can give me a good, complete story in two and a half hours, then that's all I care about.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I get nervous reading that it's 2 hours and 40 minutes now but scenes are being added and it will then get cut down to 2.5 hours. That is a lot of story to remove.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I get nervous reading that it's 2 hours and 40 minutes now but scenes are being added and it will then get cut down to 2.5 hours. That is a lot of story to remove.


I think Snyder's character moments can be a bit weak in that they aren't able to sufficiently give his cool action sequences the heft and impact that they deserve.

Whedon's strong point is character moments (with a few exceptions that won't be mentioned now). If he is working on character moments that help give Snyder's epic scenes and shots the emotional punch that they deserve, then that would be perfect.

----------


## JediKage

> I get nervous reading that it's 2 hours and 40 minutes now but scenes are being added and it will then get cut down to 2.5 hours. That is a lot of story to remove.


Well sure but some of the old scenes are getting removed as well either due to redundancy or contradiction.

----------


## Pinsir

I hope this film isn't a 3 hour slog. One of the reasons these large 'crossover' films tend to not be great is that their exceptionally long and bloated with content that doesn't really add much.

----------


## Flash Gordon

If JL is 3 hours long, however a slog it may be, just please let it be. I'm so sick of these poorly edited hack jobs (BvS and SS). I will happily sit through a 3 hour flick if it is coherent and entertaining. 

That said, I do wish some studios would allow films to be a bit on the longer side. Some stories do not extra room.

----------


## Colossus1980

I'd give an Oscar nom for WW over Logan anyday.  Logan was overrated IMO.

----------


## Dominick1216

If that 3-4 films a year rumor is true, then 2019 is:

-Shazam! (Spring)
-The Batman (Summer, HOPEFULLY!!!)
-Suicide Squad 2 (Fall)
-Wonder Woman II (December 13)

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I don't why some people have aversion to a 3hr movie. Like is an extra half hour really gonna kill you? And what will that extra half hour you saved really gonna accomplish for the rest of the day?

----------


## Buried Alien

> I don't why some people have aversion to a 3hr movie. Like is an extra half hour really gonna kill you? And what will that extra half hour you saved really gonna accomplish for the rest of the day?


Maybe it's a bladder-capacity issue.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Darkseid Is

I agree! I'd love it to be 3 hours. Then again most people watching the movie won't love the source material like we do, but screw it! It's the Justice League for christ sake.

----------


## Rogue Star

A good three hour movie is fine with me. It just means that I won't be taking my children to see it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> A good three hour movie is fine with me. It just means that I won't be taking my children to see it.


My kids, 11 & 8, are beyond hype. This could be a 4-hour film and I think they'd kill me if I didn't take them lol

----------


## Clark_Kent

> *Deathstroke Actor Joe Manganiello Weighs In On His Involvement With THE BATMAN:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batma...-happy-a152910


I'm going to break out my big bag of salt again. I'm curious how Joe can "know everything", when Reeves has barely, if at all, begun working on the script? It's possible Reeves will re-work Affleck's script, but so far they're saying it's been "tossed out", not "re-written."

----------


## Rogue Star

> My kids, 11 & 8, are beyond hype. This could be a 4-hour film and I think they'd kill me if I didn't take them lol


Mine are 3 and 9 and they could barely sit through Gaurdians of the Galaxy 2 and Spiderman Homecoming. I know better than to take them to a movie that's over 2 hours now. If Justice League is over 2 hours and 30 minutes I'll be going alone.

----------


## Black_Adam

> I'm going to break out my big bag of salt again. I'm curious how Joe can "know everything", when Reeves has barely, if at all, begun working on the script? It's possible Reeves will re-work Affleck's script, but so far they're saying it's been "tossed out", not "re-written."


Think he means he knows about what happened at the studio with Ben dropping out of directing, and the shift in creative vision.

 I think it is pretty safe to say he is out. Though I'm sure Deathstroke will pop up in another movie if that's the case, remember the original rumours had Joe as Slade in Suicide Squad so could be they are just waiting for the right movie.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Think he means he knows about what happened at the studio with Ben dropping out of directing, and the shift in creative vision.
> 
>  I think it is pretty safe to say he is out. Though I'm sure Deathstroke will pop up in another movie if that's the case, remember the original rumours had Joe as Slade in Suicide Squad so could be they are just waiting for the right movie.


Deathstoke is out? I don't follow the news I just get it from here or from friends. Who will the villain be for Batman if no Deathstroke?

----------


## Black_Adam

> Deathstoke is out? I don't follow the news I just get it from here or from friends. Who will the villain be for Batman if no Deathstroke?


With Matt Reeves directing he wants to start from scratch again so Ben's script isn't being used, I mean they could take elements of Ben's script but Reeves has total control on the movie which he wants to be a noir driven detective story.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think Snyder's character moments can be a bit weak in that they aren't able to sufficiently give his cool action sequences the heft and impact that they deserve.
> 
> Whedon's strong point is character moments (with a few exceptions that won't be mentioned now). If he is working on character moments that help give Snyder's epic scenes and shots the emotional punch that they deserve, then that would be perfect.


Idk, the UE had pretty good character moments.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Idk, the UE had pretty good character moments.


Nothing on the level of Wonder Woman though, like the boat scene which many people say is one of their favourites in the movie or Diane and Chief in camp.

As much as I loathe Screen Junkies, they actually made a really good point about how much more impactful the scenes where Superman saved people in BvS would of been had they shown him actually interacting with them after the fact.

Great example is the flood scene we basically just see him floating above them like a god great... Now how much better would that scene of been if he landed told them everything was going to be okay and comforted the kid with her dog, little things like that make a huge difference in characterization.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I don't why some people have aversion to a 3hr movie. Like is an extra half hour really gonna kill you? And what will that extra half hour you saved really gonna accomplish for the rest of the day?


3 hour flicks can be bloated and meandering. Bollywood films are typically that long but there's a lot of singing and musical numbers to pass the time and even intermissions when shown in theaters.

Why sit longer and suffer watching a poorly paced film? You've never watched a long movie and was like, "Holy shit, that was a waste of time. It was terrible." ? If the movie is an epic and actually paced well, I don't mind of course.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Yeah, like Bukdiah said, it's a pacing issue. If a film NEEDS to be 3 hours or longer and it is done well, I have no qualms with that. In fact I've long wanted to see more big screen Hollywood epics with intermissions and what not. Nothing beats a huge, spectacular, epic. 

It's just most of these flicks (franchise/superhero stuff) end up simply being poorly paced with entire trailers for other franchise movies halfway through them. I'd like stronger storytelling and sense of purpose.

----------


## Rogue Star

So how do you guys think they're going to go about building up to Darkseid?

----------


## JediKage

That is what extra footage is for....keep it to 150 mins max or so....like I love my LOTR DVDs with all the extras and bonus footage but would have sat that long in theatre...probably not.

----------


## Robotman

> So how do you guys think they're going to go about building up to Darkseid?


I've said before but since there are no immediate plans for a Justice League sequel I'm really hoping he doesn't appear and get KO'd all in the first flick.

They'll hopefully build him up a bit. We saw in the trailer that Steppenwolf had gathered the Parademons around a Mother Box and was starring up into a red sky. Looked like a summoning ritual.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I've said before but since there are no immediate plans for a Justice League sequel I'm really hoping he doesn't appear and get KO'd all in the first flick.
> 
> They'll hopefully build him up a bit. We saw in the trailer that Steppenwolf had gathered the Parademons around a Mother Box and was starring up into a red sky. Looked like a summoning ritual.


I just don't want to spend another 6 to 7 years waiting for a freaking villain to get off his butt. Anything but that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I just don't want to spend another 6 to 7 years waiting for a freaking villain to get off his butt. Anything but that.


But the mythology of the New Gods is so much richer than just "Gotta collect all 'em stones!" If we get an Escape from Apokolips movie featuring Scott Free and Barda as the protagonists with Darkseid, Desaad, Granny Goodness and the Furies playing prominent roles, it would be groundbreaking of sorts.

I'm sure even George Miller would be interested in taking on such a movie, as he is said to be a major Kirby fan and it shows in his Mad Max films.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> But the mythology of the New Gods is so much richer than just "Gotta collect all 'em stones!" If we get an Escape from Apokolips movie featuring Scott Free and Barda as the protagonists with Darkseid, Desaad, Granny Goodness and the Furies playing prominent roles, it would be groundbreaking of sorts.
> 
> I'm sure even George Miller would be interested in taking on such a movie, as he is said to be a major Kirby fan and it shows in his Mad Max films.


Absolutely. 

If they're going to use Darkseid, they'd BETTER take their time with him. Darkseid is soooo much more than just another Doomsday to show up, wreck some stuff, and then get beaten down. If I had my way, we wouldn't even SEE Darkseid for several movies in a row. He should just be something that gets talked about. People barely dare to whisper his name. His presence should be FELT far more often than it's seen. When he DOES finally show up, it needs to be a full-on nightmare. 

I'd love a series of New Gods movies. In the hands of a truly talented director who understands the source material, they would be EPIC. ANd yeah, Miller would be one of my top choices.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> That is what extra footage is for....keep it to 150 mins max or so....like I love my LOTR DVDs with all the extras and bonus footage but would have sat that long in theatre...probably not.


That's how you get a chopped up nightmare of a flick.

----------


## Bukdiah

> That is what extra footage is for....keep it to 150 mins max or so....like I love my LOTR DVDs with all the extras and bonus footage but would have sat that long in theatre...probably not.


I'm all for trimming the fat off films that are overly long for no reason. However, the duration can be anything for me, so long as the pacing is good and it's entertaining throughout. 

It's been a while since I've seen DVD Extras, but some deleted scenes really add nothing to the narrative and were thus cut. Get Out deleted scene commentary from Peele was very cool since he explained why he removed them in the first place ie (it didn't make sense for the character to behave this way, this message was too on the nose, didn't flow right, etc).

Some cool shit to check out if anyone here has seen the movie

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Maybe it's a bladder-capacity issue.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


That's the only concern for me, because I tend to drink too much coffee during the day. For long movies, I try to curb that.  :Smile:  Other than that, though, I love long films.

----------


## Bukdiah

> That's the only concern for me, because I tend to drink too much coffee during the day. For long movies, I try to curb that.  Other than that, though, I love long films.


Ain't nothing worse than getting a case of the poops during a movie lmao

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Ain't nothing worse than getting a case of the poops during a movie lmao


Heh. In all seriousness, before VCR's and other recording device, that was a problem for us when I was a kid. At least at home, numbers 1 and 2 are no big deal anymore.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Punisher007

> My kids, 11 & 8, are beyond hype. This could be a 4-hour film and I think they'd kill me if I didn't take them lol


I sat through _Titanic_ when I was seven, no problem.  I think that sitting through a 3 hour JL film is doable.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I'm all for trimming the fat off films that are overly long for no reason. However, the duration can be anything for me, so long as the pacing is good and it's entertaining throughout. 
> 
> It's been a while since I've seen DVD Extras, but some deleted scenes really add nothing to the narrative and were thus cut. Get Out deleted scene commentary from Peele was very cool since he explained why he removed them in the first place ie (it didn't make sense for the character to behave this way, this message was too on the nose, didn't flow right, etc).
> 
> Some cool shit to check out if anyone here has seen the movie


Peele is great, such an interesting video.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I sat through _Titanic_ when I was seven, no problem.  I think that sitting through a 3 hour JL film is doable.


Did you really like the drawing scene? LMAO

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Did you really like the drawing scene? LMAO


When I was that age 45 years ago, there were a few movies my parents took my brothers and me to at the local drive-in. For whatever reason, the nude scenes in the film never registered with me. It was as if my brain was attempting to preserve the actresses' modesty. By the time I hit puberty, however...  :Big Grin:

----------


## batnbreakfast

It depends on the pacing and rythm of the movie imho. Dark Knight and Winter Soldier are fine, with Avengers and BvS I have to digest them over multiple evenings. I think of them as a TV show and stop after 50 minutes, sometimes I can endure 2 episodes or a longer part of the movie, really depends on the last time I watched it or what kind of mood I'm in. I'm a nervous guy, always have a hard time sitting still for more than an hour and I love me some coffee... BTW I just watched Live by Night and it was a pleasant surprise. The start isn't really my thing but it improves with every minute and Ben crafted a powerful ending. It was irritating that his hats make him look stupid during the movie for me. Well, I'll probably always love The Town (and to a lesser degree Gone Baby Gone) but Live by Night is pretty close. He'd have made a pretty good Batman movie, I guess.

----------


## Punisher007

> Did you really like the drawing scene? LMAO


I had a reaction it, yes.  My parents found it to be quite amusing.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Heh. In all seriousness, before VCR's and other recording device, that was a problem for us when I was a kid. At least at home, numbers 1 and 2 are no big deal anymore.


Agreed. It's #3 that's really a problem.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I'm going to break out my big bag of salt again. I'm curious how Joe can "know everything", when Reeves has barely, if at all, begun working on the script? It's possible Reeves will re-work Affleck's script, but so far they're saying it's been "tossed out", not "re-written."


Reeves and WB could have actually told him that there are no plans for him in the film anymore.  It could be that simple.  If Reeves has no intent of using Deathstroke then he doesn't need a finished script to know that.

----------


## Clark_Kent

The DCEU's Trouble With Vicious & Misleading Rumors: 
http://heroichollywood.com/dc-troubl...eading-rumors/


(slow news day, but I agree with most of its points)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Agreed. It's #3 that's really a problem.


LOL

Not even going to ask.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rogue Star

> The DCEU's Trouble With Vicious & Misleading Rumors: 
> http://heroichollywood.com/dc-troubl...eading-rumors/
> 
> 
> (slow news day, but I agree with most of its points)


He/she briefly touched on what I personally believe is the primary cause of problems:
_
"The studio’s schedule keeps changing and projects keep appearing and then disappearing at random... This lack of faith in WB is problematic and the studio’s actions and reactions to the rumors have only further hurt themselves... Another aspect is that WB needs to do a better job at showing confidence. With a constantly fluctuating schedule, WB’s reactionary attitude is allowing for vicious attackers to come in and be successful at creating problems."_


Edit: I've never believed in a bias against WB/DC. I noticed that most of the problems came about due to the schedule changing at times which made them appear unsure of themselves, and if WB/DC doesn't have faith, how can the people?

----------


## JediKage

Plus given all the stuff about Ben's Personal Life and how in the past he told us he definitely Direct Batman and then didn't.....well I don't think its Anti DC to think Ben was on his way out.

----------


## Rogue Star

I never thought for a second Ben would give up the role of Batman. He had a Batcave built into his house! I don't even bother to look at or listen to rumors that are so obviously ridiculous.

----------


## Calvinr

I think a JL /avenger team up movie or team movie in general should always be a little bit longer in duration than a solo, as long as the pacing and structure of the film is in order and the film is obviously enjoyable I have no problem watching for this that length of time.

----------


## Confuzzled

> He/she briefly touched on what I personally believe is the primary cause of problems:
> _
> "The studios schedule keeps changing and projects keep appearing and then disappearing at random... This lack of faith in WB is problematic and the studios actions and reactions to the rumors have only further hurt themselves... Another aspect is that WB needs to do a better job at showing confidence. With a constantly fluctuating schedule, WBs reactionary attitude is allowing for vicious attackers to come in and be successful at creating problems."_
> 
> 
> Edit: I've never believed in a bias against WB/DC. I noticed that most of the problems came about due to the schedule changing at times which made them appear unsure of themselves, and if WB/DC doesn't have faith, how can the people?


It's not a big deal. Changing schedules is the way studios operate. Remember when Ant-Man was supposed to come out in Phase 1 and directed by Edgar Wright? When the Inhumans were supposed to get their own movie? When Doctor Strange got pushed away from summer? When Black Panther and Captain Marvel were delayed for the sixth Spider-Man movie? When Captain Marvel got delayed again thanks to Ant-Man and Wasp?

Whenever Marvel announced its schedule early on like they did for Phase 3, their plans have "fluctuated" too. It's impractical to expect WB/DC to _not_ make changes to their schedule. The only way possible is if they stay mum and don't announce upcoming movies until just the previous year (kind of like how Fox is doing with its X/FF movies). But as a result, Fox receives far less media coverage than Marvel and DC. While that eliminates negative rumors, it also reduces positive hype. So that's not a flawless solution either.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Plus given all the stuff about Ben's Personal Life and how in the past he told us he definitely Direct Batman and then didn't.....well I don't think its Anti DC to think Ben was on his way out.


I don't think the issue is in fans suspecting certain rumors are true, it's the negative rumors catching fire so quickly and then being disproved right away. Studio meddling is the one that has some previous basis, but so many have been off base. Yet sites are eager to report any of them and contribute to this cloud of negativity surrounding the DCEU. Wonder Woman hasn't stopped it at all.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> It's not a big deal. Changing schedules is the way studios operate. Remember when Ant-Man was supposed to come out in Phase 1 and directed by Edgar Wright? When the Inhumans were supposed to get their own movie? When Doctor Strange got pushed away from summer? When Black Panther and Captain Marvel were delayed for the sixth Spider-Man movie? When Captain Marvel got delayed again thanks to Ant-Man and Wasp?
> 
> Whenever Marvel announced its schedule early on like they did for Phase 3, their plans have "fluctuated" too. It's impractical to expect WB/DC to _not_ make changes to their schedule. The only way possible is if they stay mum and don't announce upcoming movies until just the previous year (kind of like how Fox is doing with its X/FF movies). But as a result, Fox receives far less media coverage than Marvel and DC. While that eliminates negative rumors, it also reduces positive hype. So that's not a flawless solution either.


They dont change their entire slate at every SDCC and DCEU people  guys lie through their teeth about their involvement in projects.
What happened to the Batman movie production was going to get bad news. That doesn't mean the film itself will be bad but the a negative response is absolutely natural.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They dont change their entire slate at every SDCC and DCEU people  guys lie through their teeth about their involvement in projects.
> What happened to the Batman movie production was going to get bad news. That doesn't mean the film itself will be bad but the a negative response is absolutely natural.


Where has DCEU changed its slate at "every SDCC"? And who "lied through their teeth" exactly? Affleck wanted to direct the film but then decided it would be too much for him. The last SDCC was much before his decision to step down as director.

Are you going to say Marvel and Edgar Wright lied through their teeth regarding Ant-Man? This kind of hypocritical logic that constructs mountains out of molehills is the thing that fuels these rumors. And let's be honest. Some fanboys want/wanted this universe to fail because they think it poses a threat to their own films. Wonder Woman passing Guardians 2 at the box office and receiving Oscar talk has made those individuals that much more paranoid, hence the increase in rumors and "leaks".

----------


## batnbreakfast

A lot of Comic book fans are like Sheldon Cooper. Just a brain with no heart attached. Whatever Ben promised was long before a divorce AND a struggle with alcohol. He's a human being first and foremost and can do whatever he wants to achieve happyness. From his POV its a contract vs soul thing.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Suicide Squad 2 just lost its director. Cue the negative articles about how the DCEU is out of control. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/31/s...-collet-serra/

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Suicide Squad 2 just lost its director. Cue the negative articles about how the DCEU is out of control. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/31/s...-collet-serra/


So he's still attached to Sirens. That probably makes sense.

----------


## Johnny

> Suicide Squad 2 just lost its director. Cue the negative articles about how the DCEU is out of control. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/31/s...-collet-serra/


But he was never the director, he was just circling the project. The guy never signed up for the movie to begin with, so I'm not sure how they could spin the story. I mean they would try of course, but it would only make them look stupid.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Where has DCEU changed its slate at "every SDCC"? And who "lied through their teeth" exactly? Affleck wanted to direct the film but then decided it would be too much for him. The last SDCC was much before his decision to step down as director.
> 
> Are you going to say Marvel and Edgar Wright lied through their teeth regarding Ant-Man? This kind of hypocritical logic that constructs mountains out of molehills is the thing that fuels these rumors. And let's be honest. Some fanboys want/wanted this universe to fail because they think it poses a threat to their own films. Wonder Woman passing Guardians 2 at the box office and receiving Oscar talk has made those individuals that much more paranoid, hence the increase in rumors and "leaks".


Marvel did get negative press over the Ant-Man fiasco, many were even saying that Ant-Man would break Marvel's winning streak, that image even persisted and was vindicated by the early batch of reviews.
DC just added GCS, Nightwing, Batgirl, Deadshot, Shazam, Black Adam in one year, these most certainly were not on their slate 2 years ago. Cyborg was and now it isn't lol.

It wasn't too much for him till the last few days before he dropped out and then it became too much for some reason. I prefer Reeves handling the film far more than Affleck but Affleck's antics definitely merit a negative response.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Marvel did get negative press over the Ant-Man fiasco, many were even saying that Ant-Man would break Marvel's winning streak, that image even persisted and was vindicated by the early batch of reviews.
> DC just added GCS, Nightwing, Batgirl, Deadshot, Shazam, Black Adam in one year, these most certainly were not on their slate 2 years ago. Cyborg was and now it isn't lol.
> 
> It wasn't too much for him till the last few days before he dropped out and then it became too much for some reason. I prefer Reeves handling the film far more than Affleck but Affleck's antics definitely merit a negative response.


Right. Alcoholics deserved to be mocked and ridiculed for checking themselves into rehab and working to get healthy.

----------


## Bukdiah

> So he's still attached to Sirens. That probably makes sense.


Any information about what Sirens' premise is?

Side note, I should really try reading the book again. I couldn't get into it because of the art when I was younger, but maybe my tastes have changed.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Any information about what Sirens' premise is?
> 
> Side note, I should really try reading the book again. I couldn't get into it because of the art when I was younger, but maybe my tastes have changed.


All we know at this point is that Ayer seems interested in using Black Mask. He posted a picture of him a while back.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Any information about what Sirens' premise is?
> 
> Side note, I should really try reading the book again. I couldn't get into it because of the art when I was younger, but maybe my tastes have changed.


The premise of the book was merely the 3 women written by Paul Dini and then it went down the drain when Dini and March left. The film has open ground to do whatever it wants.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Right. Alcoholics deserved to be mocked and ridiculed for checking themselves into rehab and working to get healthy.


When did I say that? if I wanted to ridicule his personal life then I'd have dragged his gambling addiction and his cheating in to it as well, seriously.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> So he's still attached to Sirens. That probably makes sense.


No, David Ayer is going to direct Gotham City Sirens, not Jaume Collet-Serra.




> Any information about what Sirens' premise is?
> 
> Side note, I should really try reading the book again. I couldn't get into it because of the art when I was younger, but maybe my tastes have changed.


Catwoman becomes roomies with Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy and the three have various adventures in the comic books.  I would guess the movie will have a similar theme.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> No, David Ayer is going to direct Gotham City Sirens, not Jaume Collet-Serra.


I thought the article was originally referring to him on first skim, my b.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> When did I say that? if I wanted to ridicule his personal life then I'd have dragged his gambling addiction and his cheating in to it as well, seriously.


You said Affleck's "antics" deserve a negative response.

Those "antics" include such hilarious things as checking himself into rehab in order to deal with a problem he recognized in himself.

----------


## Styles

Paramount is outta their damn minds. They got that Bumblebee movie going up against Aquaman next year. 

 Bumblebee, the Transformers spinoff movie will open on Dec. 21, 2018. 




> Originally Bumblebee occupied a slot on next June’s calendar, June 8, but will now battle Warner Bros. Aquaman on its new date

----------


## Bukdiah

> Paramount is outta their damn minds. They got that Bumblebee movie going up against Aquaman next year. 
> 
>  Bumblebee, the Transformers spinoff movie will open on Dec. 21, 2018.


Transformers has been a hot commodity for a while (though I'm not sure how they have been recently). I wouldn't be surprised if it still did well.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> You said Affleck's "antics" deserve a negative response.
> 
> Those "antics" include such hilarious things as checking himself into rehab in order to deal with a problem he recognized in himself.


Agreed, they don't deserve much of a response of any kind. 

Checking himself into rehab is pretty commendable because not everyone has the strength to do it and make the attempt, while whatever happened between him and Garner was never 100% clarified, is between them, and has fuck all to do with the DCEU anyway.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Transformers has been a hot commodity for a while (though I'm not sure how they have been recently). I wouldn't be surprised if it still did well.


Despite bad reviews the Transformers movies continue to do close to a billion worldwide (though get less and less popular domestically). Even if Aquaman beats it (which I think it will), it still isn't good to have another action movie that will undoubtedly be stealing screens from the DCEU.

----------


## Pinsir

> Despite bad reviews the Transformers movies continue to do close to a billion worldwide (though get less and less popular domestically). Even if Aquaman beats it (which I think it will), it still isn't good to have another action movie that will undoubtedly be stealing screens from the DCEU.


Last Knight has only made 568 mill though and it had a 217 mill budget, that's pretty close to being a flop. Wonder Woman more or less destroyed that movie.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Last Knight has only made 568 mill though and it had a 217 mill budget, that's pretty close to being a flop. Wonder Woman more or less destroyed that movie.


Hmm...guess I was thinking of the Fast and Furious movies.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Last Knight has only made 568 mill though and it had a 217 mill budget, that's pretty close to being a flop. Wonder Woman more or less destroyed that movie.


I liked that people smartened up and Age of Extinction flopped, but Bay gonna keep churning out those flicks so long as they profit I guess lol. It can definitely steal screen time away, but with how popular super hero films are now, I doubt it's gonna hurt Aquaman. The only thing that'll hurt him is if people still thinks he's that lame-o that talks to fish.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I liked that people smartened up and Age of Extinction flopped, but Bay gonna keep churning out those flicks so long as they profit I guess lol. It can definitely steal screen time away, but with how popular super hero films are now, I doubt it's gonna hurt Aquaman. The only thing that'll hurt him is if people still thinks he's that lame-o that talks to fish.


And if he looks great in Justice League, people won't think that about him. This is his chance to be just like Diana in BvS: if they make him look cool, people will be eager to see more of him in his own movie next year.

I seriously doubt a movie starring the Transformer who doesn't talk except in sound bytes is going to be any threat to Aquaman at all.* The audience is going to be interested in him from Justice League, James Wan is a great director and a trusted name, and this attempt at a spinoff will likely be seen as just a desperate cash grab by the audience.

*And yes, I'm aware that Bumblebee magically fixed his voice box at the end of the movie. I highly doubt that'll be prominent in people's minds since they've seen him in his "Sound-byte communication" role for multiple movies in a row.

----------


## Bukdiah

> And if he looks great in Justice League, people won't think that about him. This is his chance to be just like Diana in BvS: if they make him look cool, people will be eager to see more of him in his own movie next year.
> 
> I seriously doubt a movie starring the Transformer who doesn't talk except in sound bytes is going to be any threat to Aquaman at all.* The audience is going to be interested in him from Justice League, James Wan is a great director and a trusted name, and this attempt at a spinoff will likely be seen as just a desperate cash grab by the audience.
> 
> *And yes, I'm aware that Bumblebee magically fixed his voice box at the end of the movie. I highly doubt that'll be prominent in people's minds since they've seen him in his "Sound-byte communication" role for multiple movies in a row.


Yeah, I personally don't like what I've seen so far in regards to Aquaman. He kinda sounds like he's from Texas even though he's Atlantean and would pronounce America like "MURICA!" The "I dig it" and "YEAH!!" don't help him in that regard either lol, but to each his own. 

They are definitely grooming him to be the breakout star and I'm sure some nice action scenes would sway the public toward him like when he was skateboarding that Parademon in the trailer.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah, I personally don't like what I've seen so far in regards to Aquaman. He kinda sounds like he's from Texas even though he's Atlantean and would pronounce America like "MURICA!" The "I dig it" and "YEAH!!" don't help him in that regard either lol, but to each his own. 
> 
> They are definitely grooming him to be the breakout star and I'm sure some nice action scenes would sway the public toward him like when he was skateboarding that Parademon in the trailer.


Aquaman wasn't raised in Atlantis

----------


## Bukdiah

> You do realise Aquaman wasn't raised in Atlantis, right?


Indeed, but people from Maine (where Amnesty Bay is supposed to be) definitely don't sound like what he did in the trailer lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Indeed, but people from Maine (where Amnesty Bay is supposed to be) definitely don't sound like what he did in the trailer lol


Not everyone from Maine talks with the stereotypical Maine accent either. It's completely believable for him to talk the way he does. 

Meanwhile? He looks great. Girls (and some guys) are going to love him. He's got style, as evidenced by his Parademon-surfing move in the trailer. He's got swagger. I don't see how the general audience won't love him to death unless they manage to go out of their way to make him utterly obnoxious.

----------


## Rogue Star

> It's not a big deal. Changing schedules is the way studios operate. Remember when Ant-Man was supposed to come out in Phase 1 and directed by Edgar Wright? When the Inhumans were supposed to get their own movie? When Doctor Strange got pushed away from summer? When Black Panther and Captain Marvel were delayed for the sixth Spider-Man movie? When Captain Marvel got delayed again thanks to Ant-Man and Wasp?
> 
> Whenever Marvel announced its schedule early on like they did for Phase 3, their plans have "fluctuated" too.* It's impractical to expect WB/DC to not make changes to their schedule.* The only way possible is if they stay mum and don't announce upcoming movies until just the previous year (kind of like how Fox is doing with its X/FF movies). But as a result, Fox receives far less media coverage than Marvel and DC. While that eliminates negative rumors, it also reduces positive hype. So that's not a flawless solution either.


Shifting movie dates around to accommodate an additional movie due to the Spiderman deal happening is not the same as putting out a slate, withdrawing it and then possibly settling on a entirely new slate. It's also not the same as cancelling a movie that clearly was not a priority to the studio. I don't see the amount of fluctuation and instability being comparable at all.   Who doesn't expect some change at all???  Saying that the studio's problems with public perception is tied to the amount of instability in its plans is not the same as saying that a studio can't change its plans at all.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Not everyone from Maine talks with the stereotypical Maine accent either. It's completely believable for him to talk the way he does. 
> 
> Meanwhile? He looks great. Girls (and some guys) are going to love him. He's got style, as evidenced by his Parademon-surfing move in the trailer. He's got swagger. I don't see how the general audience won't love him to death unless they manage to go out of their way to make him utterly obnoxious.


Gonna just have to agree to disagree on Maine accents.

We're pretty much in agreement that he's supposed to be the breakout star and a hit, so not sure why it had to be stated again. WW became a star by randomly appearing and deflecting a beam with her bracelets. It doesn't take much these days for the audience to like someone for appearing bad ass.

----------


## Jokerz79

I hope Aquaman does well and I hate what Michael Bay has done with the Transformers series given it was my favorite cartoon as a kid. But I think the Bumblebee Spin-Off will do well he's definitely the most popular Autobot of the series IMO. Mostly do IMO to him avoiding Bails awful dialog and getting some "character development" and yes that's an oxymoron in a Bay Transformers film but he was one Autobot we spent a decent amount of time with and got to know. Also I'm excited Bay won't direct it and Travis Knight who did Kubo and the Two Strings is so who knows I think this one might do better than Last Knight or Extinction and could be competition for Aquaman.

----------


## Troian

> Paramount is outta their damn minds. They got that Bumblebee movie going up against Aquaman next year. 
> 
>  Bumblebee, the Transformers spinoff movie will open on Dec. 21, 2018.


The original slot for Bumblebee was much worse.
And the competition is only domestically. Like WW, The Transformers movie will more than likely eat up some of Aquamans overseas profits. 

The only competition Aquaman really have ATM is the Mary Poppins sequel/remake. Which will likely steal the family demographic and look at how well Disney's trip down nostalgia lane is going.

----------


## JediKage

I hate a new mary poppins at least the other fairy tales they did were pure animated.

----------


## Darkseid Is

Okay this is going to sound really stupid but hey, I'm a stupid person...

When they announced Holly Hunter to have a role in Batman Vs. Superman my ears perked. I happen to think she is a fine actress and I didn't think they'd wast her as the role of Senator Woman. So I got to thinking that "What if she's Granny Goodness?" like how Granny posed as an alpha lantern in Final Crisis. But that was just a silly thought. Then they started to talk about pissing in a jar and calling it GRANNY'S tea... I know she's not Granny but I got a good laugh out of it.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I'd love to see Aquadude with the Maine accent. If Black Mask makes it into GCS I hope to see an Ed Brubaker's Catwoman inspired storyline and I hope we get the Riddler thrown into it, too (probably not). I don't really see the appeal of Poison Ivy beyond she's the 3rd bombshell and looks great on a poster. IMHO DC will probably make a good version of Aquadude but I have no hope for GCS at all. Maybe Chris McKay should direct GCS and Nightwing.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't really see the appeal of Poison Ivy beyond she's the 3rd bombshell and looks great on a poster.


I see someone's not done their quality Poison Ivy story reading  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Bukdiah

> I see someone's not done their quality Poison Ivy story reading


I read her mini series a while back and liked it but wasn't blown away. Other than that, I haven't really given her a...thorough examination.  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

> I read her mini series a while back and liked it but wasn't blown away. Other than that, *I haven't really given her a...thorough examination.*


Oof  :Stick Out Tongue:  Since she's rumored to be in the Batgirl movie and since that film is supposed to be based on the Gail Simone run, the story could be inspired by New 52's _Batgirl Annual #2_, a fascinating take where Ivy's psyche was affected by the changing seasons. Kind of like _Frozen_'s Elsa, but in reverse (the seasons change Ivy's emotions instead of the other way around).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Oof  Since she's rumored to be in the Batgirl movie and since that film is supposed to be based on the Gail Simone run, the story could be inspired by New 52's _Batgirl Annual #2_, a fascinating take where Ivy's psyche was affected by the changing seasons. Kind of like _Frozen_'s Elsa, but in reverse (the seasons change Ivy's emotions instead of the other way around).


If Ivy does show up in Batgirl, I very much hope they'll use at least some of the elements from this story. It was one of the best explorations of Ivy as a complex character that I've ever seen. The Seasonal Affective Disorder angle was cool, and that moment when Ivy showed her softer side toward that dying man was really touching.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If Ivy does show up in Batgirl, I very much hope they'll use at least some of the elements from this story. It was one of the best explorations of Ivy as a complex character that I've ever seen. The Seasonal Affective Disorder angle was cool, and that moment when Ivy showed her softer side toward that dying man was really touching.


It was moving indeed. A pity nobody followed up on Ivy's SAD affliction afterwards. If the Batgirl movie took beats from that story then I could see it strike a major chord with critics and women audiences (just like Wonder Woman).

----------


## Troian

> I hate a new mary poppins at least the other fairy tales they did were pure animated.


A tad off topic but I'm somewhat hyped. I had a nanny growing up while my parents were off at work when I was younger and she loved Mary Poppins. That said though, I found the live action BaTB to be garbage compared to the original so idk how to feel about this.

----------


## Carabas

> A tad off topic but I'm somewhat hyped. I had a nanny growing up while my parents were off at work when I was younger and she loved Mary Poppins. That said though, I found the live action BaTB to be garbage compared to the original so idk how to feel about this.


I wonder if _Mary Poppins Returns_ will stick closer to the source material. It is supposedly somewhat based on the rest of the books.

----------


## Ascended

> Gonna just have to agree to disagree on Maine accents.
> 
> We're pretty much in agreement that he's supposed to be the breakout star and a hit, so not sure why it had to be stated again. WW became a star by randomly appearing and deflecting a beam with her bracelets. It doesn't take much these days for the audience to like someone for appearing bad ass.


I live in Maine and I know plenty of people who were born and raised here who sound pretty much like Mamoa's Aquaman seems to.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I forgot about the Maine connection, definitely helps me digest the strong distinctiveness of how he sounds.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Funny. This entire time I figured Amnest Bay was more like Boston harbor.

----------


## Ascended

It's a little murky, I think.

There's a real Amnesty Bay in Maine, but its not on the ocean. It's off a lake or something. And while Johns had the town set in Maine (wrong part of the State but still Maine), I've noticed that in the Rebirth series, Abnett has it in Massachusetts somewhere.

----------


## Troian

> I wonder if _Mary Poppins Returns_ will stick closer to the source material. It is supposedly somewhat based on the rest of the books.


I won't count on it tbh. But we'll see.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Funny. This entire time I figured Amnest Bay was more like Boston harbor.


I believe in Abnett's current run it is near the Boston harbor.

----------


## Black_Adam

Don't see much to worry about with Transformers, clearly a franchise which is trending downward, fast. If Age of Extinction was a disappointment, The Last Knight is an outright flop, probably won't even make 1/3 of what Wonder Woman makes domestically and it is falling well short of the predicted 300mil in China (where studios only get 1/5 of the profits) which is supposed to be it's "safe bet".

The only markets I see Bumblebee beating Aquaman in is the Asian ones and it's quite likely WB will stagger the release, Wonder Woman still hasn't opened in Japan afterall. 

The Transformers franchise is even more toxic then the DCEU, even if Bumblebee is somehow miraculously actually a decent movie, it will still get thrashed by critics regardless I guarantee. Perfect opportunity for WB to offer a much more critically acclaimed holiday blockbuster alternative.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The only markets I see Bumblebee beating Aquaman in is the Asian ones...


Even that's doubtful. If Justice League manages to be a crowdpleaser, then I see Aquaman benefiting a lot from that in Asian markets, including China.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Wonder Woman digital download release date apparently leaked (August 29th), and possible Bluray Release date as well!
http://batman-news.com/2017/08/01/wo...es-and-amazon/

----------


## Beantownbrown

*'Shazam' Director David Sandberg on 'Getting to Know the Character'*




> Earlier today, we talked to David Sandberg, the super talented Swedish filmmaker behind last year's sleeper hit "Lights Out" and next week's "Conjuring" spin-off, "Annabelle: Creation." It was a lively chat that we'll have up next week, but, while we were on the phone with Sandberg, we couldn't help but ask about his next project, an adaptation of the DC comic book "Shazam."
> 
> We first asked if there was a specific tone that he was going for with the adaptation. (The character was created by writer Bill Parker and artist C.C. Beck way back in 1939.)
> 
> "This will be very different than what I've done in the feature space, because it's not a horror movie and it's a much lighter tone. But it's something that I look forward to trying out, even though I plan to return to horror in some fashion," Sandberg explained. "My background, back in Sweden, before I started doing horror shorts, I was doing animated comedy shorts. It's not totally alien to me to have more of a comedy approach. I look forward to taking that on in a feature."
> 
> We also asked if there was a particular run of the comics that he was drawing inspiration from. When we said how much we loved the miniseries from "Bone" creator Jeff Smith, Sandberg said he hadn't read that one ... yet. In fact, the character (and his rich background) is largely new to him.
> 
> "It wasn't a character I grew up with. It was published in Sweden, where I'm from, in the '70s, so it's a little before my time. So I only knew him from the Justice League," Sandberg admitted. "It's not until now that I'm getting into the comics and reading a lot of the old ones, the Geoff Johns ones, 'The Power of Shazam,' and looking at a bunch of animation. So I'm really getting to know the character."
> ...


 Source

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *'Shazam' Director David Sandberg on 'Getting to Know the Character'*
> 
> 
> 
>  Source


And my confidence in this movie just keeps growing stronger!  :Smile: 

So he DOES have experience in doing lighter, non-horror fare? Very good. He's doing his research and getting familiar with the character? Excellent! Especially nice to see he's researching the older stories AND the more modern stuff. 

So we've got a very strong director choice here, and he's definitely going for the lighter more optimistic tone for which this character was made. Be smart, WB. Don't let go of this guy. Let him do his thing, and he could easily become another Patty Jenkins for you.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Even that's doubtful. If Justice League manages to be a crowdpleaser, then I see Aquaman benefiting a lot from that in Asian markets, including China.


What makes you think that?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Some worrying news guys, my monkey's friends's owner's uncle has some intel on WB and specifically DCE, and basically the rough cut of JL was screened over the weekend and he said it didn't go well with the execs from what he could gather he said that there was a lack of any cohesiveness and lacking in fulfilment. Other news is. Ben has walked away and WB will make an announcement soon and Arimie Hammer is already lined up as replacement and that Flashpoint is gonna act as a soft-reboot see DC can recast everyone and start fresh this is where Hammer will be explained it. Patty is being courted by MARVEL and once her contracts fulfilments on WW are over MARVEL will offer her a big paycheck to helm one of their major next phase films. Finally Johns is basically a Lex Luthor here, his manipulating his way up the chain and eventually will get to build the DC film universe he wants.

Not looking good guys, I believe him as he told me back last year that BvS will have 27% on RT with 360 reviews, plus he takes good care of my monkey some times when I am busy. Trustworthy guy.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Some worrying news guys, my monkey's friends's owner's uncle has some intel on WB and specifically DCE, and basically the rough cut of JL was screened over the weekend and he said it didn't go well with the execs from what he could gather he said that there was a lack of any cohesiveness and lacking in fulfilment. Other news is. Ben has walked away and WB will make an announcement soon and Arimie Hammer is already lined up as replacement and that Flashpoint is gonna act as a soft-reboot see DC can recast everyone and start fresh this is where Hammer will be explained it. Patty is being courted by MARVEL and once her contracts fulfilments on WW are over MARVEL will offer her a big paycheck to helm one of their major next phase films. Finally Johns is basically a Lex Luthor here, his manipulating his way up the chain and eventually will get to build the DC film universe he wants.
> 
> Not looking good guys, I believe him as he told me back last year that BvS will have 27% on RT with 360 reviews, plus he takes good care of my monkey some times when I am busy. Trustworthy guy.


All of that sounds too awful to be true.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> All of that sounds too awful to be true.


Does it...? :Wink:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Wonder Woman digital download release date apparently leaked (August 29th), and possible Bluray Release date as well!
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/01/wo...es-and-amazon/


That lines up, WB usually have digital downloads are available two weeks before physical (likely to reduce piracy).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Does it...?


Oh. Right. Sorry.


Y u scare me like dat

----------


## Bukdiah

> Does it...?


Sounds legit to me  :EEK!:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Oh. Right. Sorry.
> 
> 
> Y u scare me like dat


Haha, I was bored man sorry!

----------


## Bukdiah

> Wonder Woman digital download release date apparently leaked (August 29th), and possible Bluray Release date as well!
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/01/wo...es-and-amazon/


I hope my library gets it. I guess I better reserve it now lol. Kinda wanna check out the special features.

----------


## Buried Alien

> All of that sounds too awful to be true.


I found it completely credible until I realized that he named his source as his monkey's friends's owner's *uncle*.  It was all plausible until that uncle part...that just took it a step too far for me.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I found it completely credible until I realized that he named his source as his monkey's friends's owner's *uncle*.  It was all plausible until that uncle part...that just took it a step too far for me.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Uncle is ordinarily a red flag. I found it weird his monkey's friend had a human owner as well. And that Baggie was so casual about modern slavery.

----------


## Johnny

> Haha, I was bored man sorry!


I actually liked the part about Geoff Johns building up the DC film universe he wants. You know that way he would've made Hal and Barry the focus of everything. lol

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I hope my library gets it. I guess I better reserve it now lol. Kinda wanna check out the special features.


Speaking of special features. Per itunes: 

IMG_3178.jpg

The Epilogue sounds interesting....

----------


## Bukdiah

> Speaking of special features. Per itunes: 
> 
> IMG_3178.jpg
> 
> The Epilogue sounds interesting....


Cool. Special Features are the only reasons I wanna check out DVDs. I like BTS stuff too and interviews.

Anyone check out Wonder Woman : The Art and Making of the Film book? It has really nice behind the scenes photos and some cool information about the design process. How they managed to transform a city in Italy into Themyscira is impressive.

https://www.amazon.com/Wonder-Woman-.../dp/1785654624

----------


## Energist

> Some worrying news guys, my monkey's friends's owner's uncle has some intel on WB and specifically DCE, and basically the rough cut of JL was screened over the weekend and he said it didn't go well with the execs from what he could gather he said that there was a lack of any cohesiveness and lacking in fulfilment. Other news is. Ben has walked away and WB will make an announcement soon and Arimie Hammer is already lined up as replacement and that Flashpoint is gonna act as a soft-reboot see DC can recast everyone and start fresh this is where Hammer will be explained it. Patty is being courted by MARVEL and once her contracts fulfilments on WW are over MARVEL will offer her a big paycheck to helm one of their major next phase films. Finally Johns is basically a Lex Luthor here, his manipulating his way up the chain and eventually will get to build the DC film universe he wants.
> 
> Not looking good guys, I believe him as he told me back last year that BvS will have 27% on RT with 360 reviews, plus he takes good care of my monkey some times when I am busy. Trustworthy guy.


I'm actually inclined to believe the Geoff Johns part of this satire.

----------


## TheSupernaut

I kind of want Patty to helm the next Superman movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I kind of want Patty to helm the next Superman movie.


Me too. She clearly loves Superman AND Wonder Woman, and her approach to Wonder Woman might be just what the doctor ordered for Superman as well.

If she can do both, I very much hope she will. If she can only do one, then I guess she should stay with Diana. Then we just have to hope whoever does get Superman can be HIS Patty Jenkins.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Finally Johns is basically a Lex Luthor here, his manipulating his way up the chain and eventually will get to build the DC film universe he wants.





> I'm actually inclined to believe the Geoff Johns part of this satire


And who said this was satire?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Theatrical trailer. Some new minor footage interspersed in there.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Jason Momoa just got an epic surprise for his 38th birthday.*




> While on set of his new Aquaman movie in Queensland, Australia, the actor's wife, Lisa Bonet, and their two children, Lola and Nakoa-Wolf, took a trip down under to celebrate with him. Momoa took to Instagram to share a photo of the unforgettable moment on set.




The cake is lit :-)

----------


## Darkseid Is

He's 38? Would have thought he was 28.

----------


## Rogue Star

Sweet. Before anyone asks, I'm sure the mini-Momoa is edible.  Maybe the big one too, if you're so inclined.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Had no idea he was married to Denise Huxtable.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Beautiful family

----------


## Vanguard-01

Wow! What a great-looking family!  :Smile:  

The first thing that Momoa ever said about this job impressed me a lot: he said one of his major reasons for taking this job was so he could make a movie that he could watch with his kids. Obviously, he doesn't let them watch Game of Thrones! 

It's just so great to hear he's a responsible and caring dad, and he looks like a great husband too.

----------


## Johnny

> *Jason Momoa just got an epic surprise for his 38th birthday.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cake is lit :-)


I bet he was blasting Sepultura's Roots Bloody Roots in that moment.  :Smile:  Happy Birthday!

----------


## Random killer x

So Shazam will start production soon, and I was thinking of who they should cast as Shazam. I think DC should take advantage of this opportunity and hire John Cena as the super hero. I mean The Rock (Black Adam) vs. John Cena (Shazam) when they finally meet in a movie together down the road would be epic!

----------


## Frontier

> *Jason Momoa just got an epic surprise for his 38th birthday.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cake is lit :-)


Happy birthday, King of Atlantis  :Cool: .

----------


## Darkseid Is

> So Shazam will start production soon, and I was thinking of who they should cast as Shazam. I think DC should take advantage of this opportunity and hire John Cena as the super hero. I mean The Rock (Black Adam) vs. John Cena (Shazam) when they finally meet in a movie together down the road would be epic!


Noooooooooooooooooooo! He's a terrible actor.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Noooooooooooooooooooo! He's a terrible actor.


He was hilarious in Trainwreck.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> He was hilarious in Trainwreck.


That Marine movie was so cringey. I get douchechills thinking about it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Noooooooooooooooooooo! He's a terrible actor.


I'm kinda hoping for Adam Ritchson myself (Thad from 'Blue Mountain State', Aquaman in 'Smallville')

----------


## Powertool

> So Shazam will start production soon, and I was thinking of who they should cast as Shazam. I think DC should take advantage of this opportunity and hire John Cena as the super hero. I mean The Rock (Black Adam) vs. John Cena (Shazam) when they finally meet in a movie together down the road would be epic!


Oh, Lord, please no! There was a reason their Wrestlemania XXVIII match was labelled "Once in a Lifetime"! Everything involving the two of them that came after that was absolutely obnoxious, cringeworthy or just plain bad! And I'm in no hurry to see if the curse might carry on to the set of a big-budget Hollywood movie.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Oh, Lord, please no! There was a reason their Wrestlemania XXVIII match was labelled "Once in a Lifetime"! Everything involving the two of them that came after that was absolutely obnoxious, cringeworthy or just plain bad! And I'm in no hurry to see if the curse might carry on to the set of a big-budget Hollywood movie.


John Cena is so damn cringe worthy in the ring let alone in movies. I think he was decent in Trainwreck, but that was a comedy and he didn't have much screen time to begin with. Even Lebron James was decent in that since he was just playing himself.

----------


## Agent Z

According to Kiersey Climmons, who plays Iris West in the DCEU, the scenes that introduce Iris in Justice League are "F***ing Sick" 

http://batman-news.com/2017/08/03/ki...ris-west-sick/

----------


## Frontier

> According to Kiersey Climmons, who plays Iris West in the DCEU, the scenes that introduce Iris in Justice League are "F***ing Sick" 
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/03/ki...ris-west-sick/


I was expecting something a little more subdued...

----------


## Buried Alien

> I was expecting something a little more subdued...


Oddly, though Barry Allen and Iris West both first appeared in SHOWCASE # 4 in 1956, I think it wasn't until LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH in 1997 that DC finally revealed how Barry and Iris first met.  As of their first appearance, Barry and Iris had already known each other for quite a while and we never really knew about the circumstances of their first encounter.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Bukdiah

> I was expecting something a little more subdued...


lmao sounds like she's gonna erupt from a splash page like, "I"M IRIS WEST BITCH" or maybe she's intensely typing an article up. I guess she can do something heroic for a story she's covering live or something?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> lmao sounds like she's gonna erupt from a splash page like, "I"M IRIS WEST BITCH" or maybe she's intensely typing an article up. I guess she can do something heroic for a story she's covering live or something?


Or she might have a scene with Ezra wherein she gets to be part of some really cool speed feat or something.

----------


## Confuzzled

The new trailer hints she's in a scene where Barry is stretching the glass barrier or whatever it is. I wonder if Iris will appear in a scene with Lois or reference Lois at all. Has that ever happened in the comics? You'd think it would be natural to make Lois one of Iris's role models.

----------


## Frontier

> The new trailer hints she's in a scene where Barry is stretching the glass barrier or whatever it is. I wonder if Iris will appear in a scene with Lois or reference Lois at all. Has that ever happened in the comics? You'd think it would be natural to make Lois one of Iris's role models.


I can't for the life of me recall a single moment where Iris and Lois were in the same scene/panel together. 

Or Vicki Vale for that matter  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Bukdiah

> I can't for the life of me recall a single moment where Iris and Lois were in the same scene/panel together. 
> 
> Or Vicki Vale for that matter .


So what you're saying is...they're all the same person?!

----------


## batnbreakfast

Damn, now I want Kim Basinger back in the DCEU. Possible roles? I think she did really well in Shane Black's Nice Guys und now I want a Shane Black DC movie, too.

----------


## Buried Alien

> The new trailer hints she's in a scene where Barry is stretching the glass barrier or whatever it is. I wonder if Iris will appear in a scene with Lois or reference Lois at all. Has that ever happened in the comics? You'd think it would be natural to make Lois one of Iris's role models.





> I can't for the life of me recall a single moment where Iris and Lois were in the same scene/panel together.


There was a comic from the late 1990s or early 2000s...I forget the title and issue number, but it centered around Superman's first Post-COIE encounters with Flash (Barry Allen), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), etc., before they all came together as the Justice League.  Superman and Flash were working together to stop a huge tornado that was plowing through the Midwest, and both Lois and Iris were on hand to cover the story for THE DAILY PLANET and THE CENTRAL CITY PICTURE NEWS.  Apparently, that was not only Clark and Barry's first encounter, but Lois and Iris's as well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> There was a comic from the late 1990s or early 2000s...I forget the title and issue number, but it centered around Superman's first Post-COIE encounters with Flash (Barry Allen), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), etc., before they all came together as the Justice League.  Superman and Flash were working together to stop a huge tornado that was plowing through the Midwest, and both Lois and Iris were on hand to cover the story for THE DAILY PLANET and THE CENTRAL CITY PICTURE NEWS.  Apparently, that was not only Clark and Barry's first encounter, but Lois and Iris's as well.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Try hard Buried, remember that issue!

----------


## Styles

> I'm kinda hoping for Adam Ritchson myself (Thad from 'Blue Mountain State', Aquaman in 'Smallville')


Alan Ritchson? I see him as Shazam too. DC did use his likeness in the DCEU concept art. Maybe there's something there.

----------


## Carabas

Why are most casting suggestions for Captain Marvel these wooden muscleheads instead of actors who could actually play Captain Marvel and just need to hit the gym to get in shape?

----------


## Agent Z

> Why are most casting suggestions for Captain Marvel these wooden muscleheads instead of actors who could actually play Captain Marvel and just need to hit the gym to get in shape?


I don't think it takes much acting talent to play Shazam. Just act like a literal man child

----------


## Styles

RUMOR: THE FLASH Solo Movie FLASHPOINT To Include Gal Gadot As WONDER WOMAN




> Forbes has a great write-up today detailing Wonder Woman's historic run in the box-office. It is well worth the read, but it's the blurb at the end that is sure to catch readers attention. 
> 
> While outlining the future of The Amazon Princess, the outlet is reporting that not only will we see star Gal Gadot pick up the Lasso Of Truth in her sequel planned for 2019, but also in The Flash film as well that is now being titled Flashpoint. The info is as stated, "Gadot is also expected to reprise her role as Wonder Woman in the upcoming production of Flashpoint, which will be Flash's solo movie but is also more of another superhero team-up featuring several additional DC superheroes. Flashpoint is currently scheduled to release in 2020. So we'll see Wonder Woman twice this year, again in 2019, and in 2020. That's an average of one appearance every year, and it means Wonder Woman could potentially appear in as many different films as Batman will over the course of the next few years in the DCEU."


Here's the Forbes article:

'Wonder Woman' Wows With Wonderful $400 Million Domestic Box Office

----------


## Carabas

> I don't think it takes much acting talent to play Shazam. Just act like a literal man child


The words "man child" put me in mind of the opposite of Captain Marvel, Captain Broflake.

The way I see it, somebody like (a younger) Tom Hanks is what should be aimed for.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> RUMOR: THE FLASH Solo Movie FLASHPOINT To Include Gal Gadot As WONDER WOMAN
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the Forbes article:
> 
> 'Wonder Woman' Wows With Wonderful $400 Million Domestic Box Office


That means we might actually get a glimpse of the "Flashpoint" Universe.

----------


## Troian

I really hope they don't go full Flashpoint. While Barry is still the main lead, Flashpoint (both the comics and animated adaptation) always felt a like Justice League movie with Flash leading and lots of Batman. I want a Flash movie with just him and his supporting characters.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't think it takes much acting talent to play Shazam. Just act like a literal man child


I think you need more then that, because the actor is going to have to accurately portray Billy's personality in an adult form and his persona as Captain Marvel/Shazam. 

If there's one thing they shouldn't do is portray him as a man-child. 



> I really hope they don't go full Flashpoint. While Barry is still the main lead, Flashpoint (both the comics and animated adaptation) always felt a like Justice League movie with Flash leading and lots of Batman. I want a Flash movie with just him and his supporting characters.


This is probably my biggest issue, though they might make Iris more of an integral part of this version then she was in the original and we're most likely going to see Thawne show up.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Why are most casting suggestions for Captain Marvel these wooden muscleheads instead of actors who could actually play Captain Marvel and just need to hit the gym to get in shape?


Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I don't think it takes much acting talent to play Shazam. Just act like a literal man child


John Cena has been doing it for years and it's embarrassing!

----------


## Vanguard-01

They may show Diana in her villainous persona in Flashpoint, but my guess is that it'll be toned down. Right now, unless JL changes things, Diana CAN'T lead her Amazon sisters in an invasion of Man's World and turn the UK into a male concentration camp. They may portray a battle between her and Aquaman, but it'll probably toned down as well. I very much doubt they'll show her murdering a child in cold blood either. 

Unless Flashpoint's effects go back a century or more, whatever changes to Diana's timeline will take place after she's already been here in Man's World for some time. My guess is something will change that just pushes Diana down a villainous path and she just becomes another run-of-the-mill villain of some sort. Maybe she teams up with some other villains. Who knows? Either way, it won't be quite as severe as comic Flashpoint. Let's never forget that the comics can ALWAYS go bigger than the movies because comics don't have a special effects budget. So this will definitely be toned down. 

Heck, maybe they'll REALLY flip the script and NOT have Diana as a villain at all. Maybe she'll remain a hero and fight beside Barry. That'd be cool. 

Meanwhile? Awesome to hear that Diana is going to break $400 million Domestic!  :Smile:

----------


## Buried Alien

> Try hard Buried, remember that issue!


Got it.  SUPERMAN:  THE MAN OF STEEL ANNUAL # 4 from 1995

link to more info

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Buried Alien

> The new trailer hints she's in a scene where Barry is stretching the glass barrier or whatever it is. I wonder if Iris will appear in a scene with Lois or reference Lois at all. Has that ever happened in the comics? You'd think it would be natural to make Lois one of Iris's role models.





> I can't for the life of me recall a single moment where Iris and Lois were in the same scene/panel together. 
> 
> Or Vicki Vale for that matter .


First Post-COIE (and rare in any case) encounter between Lois Lane and Iris West.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Carabas

> They may show Diana in her villainous persona in Flashpoint, but my guess is that it'll be toned down. Right now, unless JL changes things, Diana CAN'T lead her Amazon sisters in an invasion of Man's World and turn the UK into a male concentration camp. They may portray a battle between her and Aquaman, but it'll probably toned down as well. I very much doubt they'll show her murdering a child in cold blood either. 
> 
> Unless Flashpoint's effects go back a century or more, whatever changes to Diana's timeline will take place after she's already been here in Man's World for some time. My guess is something will change that just pushes Diana down a villainous path and she just becomes another run-of-the-mill villain of some sort. Maybe she teams up with some other villains. Who knows? Either way, it won't be quite as severe as comic Flashpoint. Let's never forget that the comics can ALWAYS go bigger than the movies because comics don't have a special effects budget. So this will definitely be toned down. 
> 
> Heck, maybe they'll REALLY flip the script and NOT have Diana as a villain at all. Maybe she'll remain a hero and fight beside Barry. That'd be cool.


I would put money on them not even reading the Flashpoint comic if Geoff Johns wasn't involved.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Why are most casting suggestions for Captain Marvel these wooden muscleheads instead of actors who could actually play Captain Marvel and just need to hit the gym to get in shape?


IMO, Captain Marvel needs a certain whimsy to him. Somebody like John Cena? No thanks.

----------


## Darkseid Is

We could get Triple H to play King Kull and Linda McMahon to play Aunt Minerva.

----------


## Ascended

All I know is I want John C Reiley to play Uncle Marvel!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Alan Ritchson? I see him as Shazam too. DC did use his likeness in the DCEU concept art. Maybe there's something there.


Yes! Alan! Lol I was typing on my phone, not sure why I typed Adam. Guess I was thinking of him fighting the rock in a sequel.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Why are most casting suggestions for Captain Marvel these wooden muscleheads instead of actors who could actually play Captain Marvel and just need to hit the gym to get in shape?


Alan Ritchson actually is a good actor though...not Oscar quality or anything, but he could pull off the "kid becomes adult superhero" wonder pretty well.

----------


## Bukdiah

> We could get Triple H to play King Kull and Linda McMahon to play Aunt Minerva.


lmao Time to play the gaaame

----------


## skyvolt2000

> The words "man child" put me in mind of the opposite of Captain Marvel, Captain Broflake.
> 
> The way I see it, somebody like (a younger) Tom Hanks is what should be aimed for.


So you mean his son Colin Hanks?

----------


## Flash Gordon

> So you mean his son Colin Hanks?


Carabas is talking acting ability.

I think Colin Hanks is a good actor, but he's an entirely different person with his own personality. He's not really like his father was.

----------


## Confuzzled

> First Post-COIE (and rare in any case) encounter between Lois Lane and Iris West.
> 
> 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Thanks.  :Smile:  Man, they really need to work on the Lois/Iris relationship. Two established women in hardcore journalism wouldn't react to each other like that lol

----------


## Frontier

> First Post-COIE (and rare in any case) encounter between Lois Lane and Iris West.
> 
> 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Oh boy  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Carabas

> So you mean his son Colin Hanks?


Not seeing it.
He seems very differnt from his father.

I think I mentioned specifically younger Tom Hanks because he basically already played a very similar character in Big. He used to be a much more fun actor to watch than he is now IMO.

----------


## Styles

NIGHTWING Director Chris McKay Reveals Why The Film Did Not Appear In The DCEU Slate At Comic-Con

----------


## Johnny

He gets it and seems like WB gets it too. Maybe that's why Cyborg wasn't there too.

----------


## Frontier

> NIGHTWING Director Chris McKay Reveals Why The Film Did Not Appear In The DCEU Slate At Comic-Con


That's a good a reason as any not to put _Nightwing_ in the slate and confirm any kind of release date. 

The last thing the DCEU needs is to rush productions or rush out more directors. 

I hope this means production on Batgirl is moving smoothly (as well as on the other films).

Though we still don't have a director for _Flashpoint_, do we?

----------


## Buried Alien

One of the important features of the Nightwing character is that he was once Robin...and not just any Robin, but the FIRST, original Robin...probably the most well-known version of that character for generations.

Would a DCEU NIGHTWING film need to first explore his career as Robin as set-up?  Maybe the film would even start with Dick Grayson as Robin and then portray his transition to Nightwing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Frontier

> One of the important features of the Nightwing character is that he was once Robin...and not just any Robin, but the FIRST, original Robin...probably the most well-known version of that character for generations.
> 
> Would a DCEU NIGHTWING film need to first explore his career as Robin as set-up?  Maybe the film would even start with Dick Grayson as Robin and then portray his transition to Nightwing.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I would be kind of shocked if we don't see flashbacks to Dicks' origin and his becoming Robin in the movie, and either show or allude to what happened that transitioned him into Nightwing. 

The only question is how they handle that from a casting perspective. Will they cast an actor who can plausibly play a teenage and adult Dick Grayson or cast two different actors for Robin and Nightwing?

----------


## Styles

> That's a good a reason as any not to put _Nightwing_ in the slate and confirm any kind of release date. 
> 
> The last thing the DCEU needs is to rush productions or rush out more directors. 
> 
> I hope this means production on Batgirl is moving smoothly (as well as on the other films).
> 
> Though we still don't have a director for _Flashpoint_, do we?


No director yet but according to Mark Hughes of Forbes Zemeckis is WB's top pick

----------


## Johnny

It was smart they didn't give the slate release dates at CC this year. They just showed what was in active development and that was it. Given their past troubles with release dates, that was a wise decision.

----------


## Confuzzled

Zemeckis would be an intriguing choice if Flashpoint is more faithful to the Flashpoint Paradox storyline.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I really hope they don't go full Flashpoint. While Barry is still the main lead, Flashpoint (both the comics and animated adaptation) always felt a like Justice League movie with Flash leading and lots of Batman. I want a Flash movie with just him and his supporting characters.


Yeah I agree.

----------


## Confuzzled

Flashpoint is an odd choice for the first Flash solo indeed. But as long as Barry & Iris are given central focus, Reverse Flash is given a meaty role, and then the sequels dive headlong into Flash mythology and characters, I'm okay with it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It was smart they didn't give the slate release dates at CC this year. They just showed what was in active development and that was it. Given their past troubles with release dates, that was a wise decision.


Absolutely!  It does seem like the studios is resetting and learning from past mistakes.

----------


## Aioros22

After watching the recent batch of trailers, Aquaman is definitly the MVP. Him and Mera basically steal the show. 

Now if only I`d get a Red Hood, to add to my AQ and CW Arrow love..

----------


## Frontier

> Flashpoint is an odd choice for the first Flash solo indeed. But as long as Barry & Iris are given central focus, Reverse Flash is given a meaty role, and then the sequels dive headlong into Flash mythology and characters, I'm okay with it.


I think one of the benefits of them getting Flashpoint out of the way is that they can move past it once we get a proper Flash solo. 

Beter to settle the "dead mom" business now rather then make it so essential to the franchise.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think one of the benefits of them getting Flashpoint out of the way is that they can move past it once we get a proper Flash solo. 
> 
> Beter to settle the "dead mom" business now rather then make it so essential to the franchise.


Yup. Better to make the sequels focus on the Rogues and the Wests than "Mystery of the Dead Mom". You don't want a situation like the unwanted Richard Parker storyline dragging down _The Amazing Spider-Man_ movies.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think one of the benefits of them getting Flashpoint out of the way is that they can move past it once we get a proper Flash solo. 
> 
> Beter to settle the "dead mom" business now rather then make it so essential to the franchise.


Yeah that's a good point. I would love if it ended with him saving her too.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Aquaman filming pic leak: https://www.reddit.com/r/DCEUleaks/c..._chasing_mera/

----------


## Rogue Star

> NIGHTWING Director Chris McKay Reveals Why The Film Did Not Appear In The DCEU Slate At Comic-Con


If that's the way they're thinking now, it seems like they're learning from their own AND Marvel's mistakes.  This alone makes me more excited for Nightwing than any other upcoming DC movie.  Batgirl, which was my previous #1, fell a few spots because of Whedon being attached.

----------


## Darkseid Is

First I'm hearing of a Nightwing flick. Very exited. They really are milking that batverse though haha

----------


## Vanguard-01

Thrilled to hear that Mr. McKay is being allowed to make his movie according to his schedule! This really is a sign that WB is learning from their past mistakes. They got lucky with Suicide Squad, but slapping movies together in a hurry is not a good long-term strategy. 

Good to know McKay is taking his time and focusing his energy on making the best quality comics possible and good to know WB recognizes the importance of letting him do this. This should help instill confidence in the DCEU brand. It'll ESPECIALLY instill confidence when (not if) the Nightwing movie turns out be good quality and a real success story. 




> Aquaman filming pic leak: https://www.reddit.com/r/DCEUleaks/c..._chasing_mera/


Very nice! I love how we can identify Mera even in this image, which is not the best resolution. Dat red hair is EVERYTHING! Can't wait to see the Queen kicking ass and taking names.

----------


## JediKage

I think its a win...I mean really having Batgirl, Gotham City Sirens and Nightwing before a Batman movie makes no sense. I mean sheesh let the Batman Director have some control over the Bat Side of the DCEU.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Yup. Better to make the sequels focus on the Rogues and the Wests than "Mystery of the Dead Mom". You don't want a situation like the unwanted Richard Parker storyline dragging down _The Amazing Spider-Man_ movies.


I dunno I think you build up to Flashpoint, establish all these characters and then see their Elseworlds versions after. It's weird if we are going to see an alternate Iris when we will barely know the real one before hand.

Also from what little we heard of the original script I thought Famuyiwa's movie sounded really cool, Flash and Cyborg taking on ALL the Rogues, and not some lame crap like the CW but the proper Rogues like they are in the comics, together.

Flashpoint will probably be Justice League 1.5 and a huge event, I would of liked them to build the Flash mythos up first, but I'm still excited for a Flash solo so bring it on!

----------


## Badou

> NIGHTWING Director Chris McKay Reveals Why The Film Did Not Appear In The DCEU Slate At Comic-Con


I think this is just a nice way to say WB isn't looking to do a Nightwing movie any time soon and their focus is Batgirl and Batman for the Batman related movies, which I imagine Robin/Nightwing will appear in as a supporting character. If his character is received well in those movies then they will fast tract a Nightwing movie, but if not then I imagine they will scrap it and just keep the character as a supporting character or try and kick around a Titans movie.  

His quote would work more if the movies WB/DC announced were given loose release dates attached, but they weren't. They were just movies WB/DC said they were focusing on (probably over the next 5-ish years) and Nightwing wasn't one of them, but you understand why the director attached can't say any of this. Still, given how far away the project seems to be I wouldn't be surprised if he moves on to direct something else and steps away maybe, but we will see. 




> One of the important features of the Nightwing character is that he was once Robin...and not just any Robin, but the FIRST, original Robin...probably the most well-known version of that character for generations.
> 
> Would a DCEU NIGHTWING film need to first explore his career as Robin as set-up?  Maybe the film would even start with Dick Grayson as Robin and then portray his transition to Nightwing.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I feel like they have sort of already dropped the ball with Robin. At most they will just have brief flashbacks I would think, but they have already missed their opportunity to do a proper live action Robin origin movie, which is a shame. Since it would be nice to get that image of the failed live action Robin from the 90s Batman and Robin movie wiped away from people's minds. I mean they will have to do two origins for Robin because Dick and Jason have already been Robin with Dick leaving and possibly having a falling out with Bruce and Jason dying. Each of those could have been their own movie, but they skipped over it all. So they would have to force both origins into a Batman or Batgirl (Robin is rumored to appear in there) movie which seems awkward. Given that Jason is the only Robin they have hinted at and he is dead I would think they would mainly focus on his origin too.

----------


## Badou

> First I'm hearing of a Nightwing flick. Very exited. They really are milking that batverse though haha


I see this get posted a lot. Nightwing was announced with McKay directing _before_ Batgirl was announced, but as soon as Batigrl with Wheadon was announced so many people completely forgot about it.

----------


## batnbreakfast

So far the only thing we know about Robin is his costume was defaced and something terrible happened to him. We don't know if he's Dick or Jason. If he's dead or insane. They pretty much made the comics their own with MoS and BvS.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

I think there's so much potential from a Nightwing movie that incorporates flashbacks to his formative years. Marvel's proven that we can de-age Affleck to his Chasing Amy years, and I would love to see Robin's origin done properly after the camp-fest that was Batman Forever.

----------


## Frontier

> So far the only thing we know about Robin is his costume was defaced and something terrible happened to him. We don't know if he's Dick or Jason. If he's dead or insane. They pretty much made the comics their own with MoS and BvS.


They confirmed Jason was the dead Robin.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> They confirmed Jason was the dead Robin.


Mea culpa. In the movie or in interviews?

----------


## byrd156

> Mea culpa. In the movie or in interviews?


Interviews, they also had a tour of the movie props and that info is at the Robin costume display.

----------


## Buried Alien

> They confirmed Jason was the dead Robin.


Do we find out if Dick preceded him as Robin?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## yohyoi

> I think there's so much potential from a Nightwing movie that incorporates flashbacks to his formative years. Marvel's proven that we can de-age Affleck to his Chasing Amy years, and I would love to see Robin's origin done properly after the camp-fest that was Batman Forever.


I agree. The Robin stigma needs to go away. Robin hasn't been portrayed as campy in the comics since the 80s. Batman Forever was a huge disappointment. Simply taking inspiration from Batman: Dark Victory and Robin: Year One there is enough for a compelling Robin story.




> Do we find out if Dick preceded him as Robin?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


The amount of pissed off fans if Dick isn't the OG Robin will be unreal. It's like if the DCEU started with Dick Grayson as Batman. The DCEU won't live it down.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Do we find out if Dick preceded him as Robin?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I'm really looking forward to a Nightwing movie and I'm assuming Dick was a Robin once because at one time this was an easter egg idea from a set photo of Batman V Superman http://pm1.narvii.com/5756/cfa5aa655...d07105e_hq.jpg but it doesn't seem at that moment they had Nightwing plans.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Interviews, they also had a tour of the movie props and that info is at the Robin costume display.


That doesn't count. Flashpoint might even reset it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Do we find out if Dick preceded him as Robin?


The SDCC podcaster who said Poison Ivy was teased for the _Batgirl_ movie also said that a Robin would be appearing in the film. The guesses are Dick in flashbacks reminiscent of _Batgirl: Year One_.

----------


## byrd156

> That doesn't count. Flashpoint might even reset it.


You can say it doesn't count if you want, the dead Robin is Jason.

----------


## batnbreakfast

What have you done David Ayer? Bright looks awesome. Is it because of Max Landis? To curb my own enthusiasm... Suicide Squad had an awesome trailer (Queen), too

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I think there's so much potential from a Nightwing movie that incorporates flashbacks to his formative years. Marvel's proven that we can de-age Affleck to his Chasing Amy years, and I would love to see Robin's origin done properly after the camp-fest that was Batman Forever.


If they do Robin... a Dark Knight Rises solution would work fine for me. Please no circus kid in 2017.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...79304749522944

David Sandberg shares first look at Shazam! script! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...79304749522944
> 
> David Sandberg shares first look at Shazam! script! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P


Well, at least he's proving that he does in fact have a sense of humor!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Definitely a good sign as far as his promise to make Shazam a light-hearted movie.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> If they do Robin... a Dark Knight Rises solution would work fine for me. Please no circus kid in 2017.


I wanna see muh circus kid.

----------


## yohyoi

> I wanna see muh circus kid.


I want to see my circus kid grow up to be DC's greatest lady killer and friendliest hero.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I want to see my circus kid grow up to be DC's greatest lady killer and friendliest hero.


Ok, but will he be a cop at some point or at least meet Tarantula? :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## yohyoi

> Ok, but will he be a cop at some point or at least meet Tarantula?


God, no!!! My Tarantula PTSD is kicking in.  :Frown:

----------


## Confuzzled

> https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...79304749522944
> 
> David Sandberg shares first look at Shazam! script! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P


OMFG the replies! DCEU haters are getting comically desperate now. I pity poor David Sandberg having to deal with the trolls.

----------


## Bukdiah

Magnificent dialogue in that script lol

----------


## Darkseid Is

"Oh. Is 'dis bitch." hahaha

----------


## Badou

> Ok, but will he be a cop at some point or at least meet Tarantula?


He probably retired and became a cop. I mean Bruce has been Batman for like 20 years and Dick is probably in his 30s now.

----------


## Johnny

> https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...79304749522944
> 
> David Sandberg shares first look at Shazam! script! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P


That was awesome. For what it's worth, wasn't there actual scoops some time ago that Superman might indeed show up in Shazam?

----------


## Punisher007

> He probably retired and became a cop. I mean Bruce has been Batman for like 20 years and Dick is probably in his 30s now.


That sounds cool.  As long as there's not Tarantula rape involved, Dick's day job being a cop is actually kind of interesting.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Justice League Promo Image of Superman*

----------


## TheSupernaut

> *Justice League Promo Image of Superman*


I wonder if Henry is wearing his same suit from BvS or did they give a new one for JL?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

:Embarrassment:

----------


## Rogue Star

She looks so good in her pictures. Especially in her other outfit.

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## chief12d

> 


I see Cyborg still looks like crap  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> I see Cyborg still looks like crap


I wish they had stuck with his Flashpoint costume. I really liked that look, and with a few modifications it'd be pretty damn perfect. 

The large chunks of black made it look like he wasn't completely robotic, like there might be some flesh under there. Make a couple of his limbs obviously prosthetic and you'd have a really solid foundation to build from if nothing else.

As for that image of Cavill's Superman flying (from the last page).....I wish they'd go a little more wind-swept with his hair. It looks too stiff, there's no sense of movement there. Sad, since Cavill's natural hair has the kind of quasi-wild, curly tangle I'd like to see.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Why does the poster say 2018?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Why does the poster say 2018?


It's a 2018 calendar.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I'm really looking forward to a Nightwing movie and I'm assuming Dick was a Robin once because at one time this was an easter egg idea from a set photo of Batman V Superman http://pm1.narvii.com/5756/cfa5aa655...d07105e_hq.jpg but it doesn't seem at that moment they had Nightwing plans.


I'm assuming that any Nightwing movie would include Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson) flashbacks because Chris O'Donnell doesn't count and so we've never really seen Batman and Robin on film. I expect flashbacks of this sort and will be disappointed if they aren't included.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> I'm assuming that any Nightwing movie would include Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson) flashbacks because Chris O'Donnell doesn't count and so we've never really seen Batman and Robin on film. I expect flashbacks of this sort and will be disappointed if they aren't included.


Flashbacks could be cool way of showing the adventures Batman had before Dawn of Justice. Veteran Batman is cool but I always thought all of those years of crime fighting are full of untapped potential.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I feel dumb because I just realized some parallels and love them dearly:
The comics introduced Superman back in 1938, Batman in 1939 and Wonder Woman in 1941. The DCEU movies followed that blueprint (planned or not planned): MoS (2013) introduced Superman, BvS (2016) introduced Batman THEN Wonder Woman. Am I wrong or isn't that a great coincidence?

Am I the only one who needs a Starro, the Conquerer cameo in JL?

----------


## JediKage

> I see Cyborg still looks like crap


they didnt even try.

----------


## Carabas

> *Justice League Promo Image of Superman*


Is... is that... colour?

Is this what happens when Snyder leaves the building?

----------


## Agent Z

> Is... is that... colour?
> 
> Is this what happens when Snyder leaves the building?


You do know there was colour in the WW movie that was produced by Snyder right?

And what is with the complaining about color anyway? Must all movies look the same?

----------


## Troian

> You do know there was colour in the WW movie that was produced by Snyder right?
> 
> And what is with the complaining about color anyway? Must all movies look the same?


Lmao I think that was sarcasm. :P.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> I feel dumb because I just realized some parallels and love them dearly:
> The comics introduced Superman back in 1938, Batman in 1939 and Wonder Woman in 1941. The DCEU movies followed that blueprint (planned or not planned): MoS (2013) introduced Superman, BvS (2016) introduced Batman THEN Wonder Woman. Am I wrong or isn't that a great coincidence?
> 
> Am I the only one who needs a Starro, the Conquerer cameo in JL?


Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are usually shown like that based on popularity. Hence why that was the order they are presented in, it probably isn't as unique as we think unfortunately.

----------


## Confuzzled

*It's official guys. Wonder Woman passed the $400M mark in North America!*



Will soon pass the original _Spider-Man_ to become the highest grossing superhero origin film of all time! Astounding.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> *It's official guys. Wonder Woman passed the $400M mark in North America!*
> 
> 
> 
> Will soon pass the original _Spider-Man_ to become the highest grossing superhero origin film of all time! Astounding.


That's WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWonder... ful... Great news. Great film. Beautiful woman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *It's official guys. Wonder Woman passed the $400M mark in North America!*
> 
> 
> 
> Will soon pass the original _Spider-Man_ to become the highest grossing superhero origin film of all time! Astounding.


Whoo-hoo! 

And we still have the Japanese market yet to come! It's coming there at the end of the month. If they love it as much as they loved Frozen, then the Billion Dollar Club may yet be in reach! 

Come on, Japan! We're counting on you!

----------


## darkseidpwns

A billion is out of the question but 800+ million is a fantastic number for this film, I personally had it pegged at 600 with great reviews.

----------


## chief12d

> I wish they had stuck with his Flashpoint costume. I really liked that look, and with a few modifications it'd be pretty damn perfect. 
> 
> The large chunks of black made it look like he wasn't completely robotic, like there might be some flesh under there. Make a couple of his limbs obviously prosthetic and you'd have a really solid foundation to build from if nothing else.
> 
> As for that image of Cavill's Superman flying (from the last page).....I wish they'd go a little more wind-swept with his hair. It looks too stiff, there's no sense of movement there. Sad, since Cavill's natural hair has the kind of quasi-wild, curly tangle I'd like to see.


That was a solid design for Cyborg that would've resulted in a much less scrunched up look. Is it fair to assume they may eventually transition to that costume when (if) he gets his own movie?

----------


## Ascended

> That was a solid design for Cyborg that would've resulted in a much less scrunched up look. Is it fair to assume they may eventually transition to that costume when (if) he gets his own movie?


We'll have to see how the JL film plays out. But if I had to guess? Probably not. I figure Vic's gonna see some upgrades and costume changes as the films progress, but he'll likely stick to the same general sensibilities we're seeing now. So, you know, maybe a smoother, less "wrinkled tin foil" look, but probably not the sleek "silver armor with black under layer" from Flashpoint.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> We'll have to see how the JL film plays out. But if I had to guess? Probably not. I figure Vic's gonna see some upgrades and costume changes as the films progress, but he'll likely stick to the same general sensibilities we're seeing now. So, you know, maybe a smoother, less "wrinkled tin foil" look, but probably not the sleek "silver armor with black under layer" from Flashpoint.


Would be cool if he "shed" the clunkier aspects as a plot point of his synchronicity (man/machine).

----------


## Robotman

There's a chance he'll look less lik tin foil at some point in the movie. I saw one of the Justice League figures of Cyborg from the "Multiverse" line. It came with the 3 Mother Boxes. It showed Cyborg in battle mode with his face fully covered. He looked more armored up. But it may have just been the way the action figure was designed. Having trouble finding the image.

----------


## Buried Alien

I have fewer problems with the way Cyborg's armor looks than I do with how Flash's suit looks.  The way that Flash's suit in the DCEU currently appears is precisely the opposite of sleek.  DCEU Flash looks more like Pinocchio than the Fastest Man Alive.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Bukdiah

> I have fewer problems with the way Cyborg's armor looks than I do with how Flash's suit looks.  The way that Flash's suit in the DCEU currently appears is precisely the opposite of sleek.  DCEU Flash looks more like Pinocchio than the Fastest Man Alive.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I'm a real boy!

People have been saying it's his prototype suit. I don't really read stuff about the movie, I prefer to keep myself in the dark, so talk my word with a grain of salt.

----------


## Robotman

> I'm a real boy!
> 
> People have been saying it's his prototype suit. I don't really read stuff about the movie, I prefer to keep myself in the dark, so talk my word with a grain of salt.


I'm gonna withhold judgement on Flash and Cyborg's designs until I see the movie. There's a very good chance that they will look different by the end of the flick. Cyborg should be able to transform his body and maybe Bruce will help Barry with funds to create a better looking Flash suit.

----------


## Cyborguy

> There's a chance he'll look less lik tin foil at some point in the movie. I saw one of the Justice League figures of Cyborg from the "Multiverse" line. It came with the 3 Mother Boxes. It showed Cyborg in battle mode with his face fully covered. He looked more armored up. But it may have just been the way the action figure was designed. Having trouble finding the image.


DGomGGtVoAAep6V.jpg
DGomEpfUAAA6l6j.jpg

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

From Empire magazine...

----------


## Beantownbrown

*James Wan On The Challenges Of Working With Water*




> In an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, Wan discussed the challenges of filming with water and how Dolph Lundgren landed the role of King Nereus.
> 
> Wan explained why working with water proved to be technically challenging:
> 
>     “It’s a very technically challenging shoot to be on. Working with water, and even the dry-for-wet sequences are very complex. … Our equivalent of two people sitting around chatting in the underwater world is super complicated. You have to think about CG with the hair, and how their clothing moves, how are they floating, what kind of rig we put them on and all that stuff.”
> 
> Wan discussed how the decision to use a little CGI as possible increased the difficulty:
> 
>     “That just makes it very difficult and time-sucking and time-challenging to do all of this. So it’s not an easy shoot — but hopefully it will pay off in spades down the line.”
> ...


Source

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I have fewer problems with the way Cyborg's armor looks than I do with how Flash's suit looks.  The way that Flash's suit in the DCEU currently appears is precisely the opposite of sleek.  DCEU Flash looks more like Pinocchio than the Fastest Man Alive.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I like the suit, because it's practical and makes sense.

The panels on the suit keep it from burning up, and the cables conduct/redirect the lightning that explodes from his body. That makes it easier for him to use it as a weapon, without it flying everywhere.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Lmao I think that was sarcasm. :P.


Hopefully, because MoS is an amazing looking movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> 


He looks fine. Besides, he can always upgrade, and/or change his appearance.

----------


## golgi



----------


## Buried Alien

> I like the suit, because it's practical and makes sense.
> 
> The panels on the suit keep it from burning up, and the cables conduct/redirect the lightning that explodes from his body. That makes it easier for him to use it as a weapon, without it flying everywhere.


Narrative logic aside, however, the aesthetics seem a bit dubious.  The suit isn't easy on eyes the way a superhero costume should be, especially the costume of the premier speedster superhero in comic books.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Ascended

Im not a fan of the Flash costume, but I dont dislike it either.

The Motocross influences are obvious and fitting. And I've been running around in DCU Online with my Flash character for years, who wears Flash armor with some similar sensibilities to the movie costume so I'm accustomed to seeing my speedsters wearing something a little heavier.

The issues I have with the costume have more to do with the details than the general concept.

As for Cyborg.....I think one of my biggest problems with his movie costume (and the comics for that matter) is that they don't reflect Kirby at all. Cyborg's made out of a Mother Box; you'd think there'd be a few of Kirby's signature New Gods line-work somewhere. I don't need Vic looking like Orion's toaster, but a little Kirby leaking into your art is never a bad thing.

----------


## Adekis

> As for Cyborg.....I think one of my biggest problems with his movie costume (and the comics for that matter) is that they don't reflect Kirby at all. Cyborg's made out of a Mother Box; you'd think there'd be a few of Kirby's signature New Gods line-work somewhere. I don't need Vic looking like Orion's toaster, but a little Kirby leaking into your art is never a bad thing.


That's been bothering me literally since 2011 in the comics, and honestly I kind of _do_ want him looking like Orion's toaster. Just a little.

But honestly I kind of feel that way about every single New Gods element we've seen so far in the film's promotional material. Where's the Kirby?

----------


## Bukdiah

> Narrative logic aside, however, the aesthetics seem a bit dubious.  The suit isn't easy on eyes the way a superhero costume should be, especially the costume of the premier speedster superhero in comic books.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Yeah, I was kinda hoping he'd have a mesh tracksuit in the same vein as Quicksilver in Age of Ultron. I never liked the leather biker aesthetic of the Flash TV show one either.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah, I was kinda hoping he'd have a mesh tracksuit in the same vein as Quicksilver in Age of Ultron. I never liked the leather biker aesthetic of the Flash TV show one either.


Hell... the Black Panther costume material in Flash aesthetic looks like it could be great.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Hell... the Black Panther costume material in Flash aesthetic looks like it could be great.


Oh shit. It would! I'm curious as to what Flash's end suit is gonna look like now.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Justice League: Adjusting the Tone of the Cyborg Character Was Part of the Reshoots: http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/...f-the-reshoots

----------


## Serpico Jones

Jett from BOF says an early cut of Justice League was deemed "unwatchable". Thus, substantial changes to the film were ordered.

----------


## yohyoi

> Jett from BOF says an early cut of Justice League was deemed "unwatchable". Thus, substantial changes to the film were ordered.


Wow. Snyder...

----------


## Bukdiah

> Justice League: Adjusting the Tone of the Cyborg Character Was Part of the Reshoots: http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/...f-the-reshoots


I never cared much for Cyborg, but his backstory is pretty tragic I guess. Maybe the reshoots made him mope about it less if he ever did in the first place? I like how vague everyone is lol

----------


## Agent Z

> Wow. Snyder...


"wow. Snyder..." what?

----------


## yohyoi

> Snyder what?


I like him, but his storytelling is a hit or miss. "unwatchable" sounds like a miss to me.




> I never cared much for Cyborg, but his backstory is pretty tragic I guess. Maybe the reshoots made him mope about it less if he ever did in the first place? I like how vague everyone is lol


They most likely lightened him up.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Jett from BOF says an early cut of Justice League was deemed "unwatchable". Thus, substantial changes to the film were ordered.


Lol BOF. Don't take anything they say seriously. They've been hating on Snyder since he was hired.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Wan Shares Best Look Yet At Amnesty Bay Lighthouse*

----------


## Bukdiah

> *Wan Shares Best Look Yet At Amnesty Bay Lighthouse*


Very pretty location indeed

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Lol BOF. Don't take anything they say seriously. They've been hating on Snyder since he was hired.


Pretty much this. Jett has been against the shared universe idea ever since WB first talked about doing it. He wants only standalone Batman films.

----------


## Confuzzled

Ben Affleck addresses Justice League's director drama and reshoot rumors




> “It’s a little bit unorthodox,” admits Ben Affleck, who will reprise the role of Batman in Justice League. “Zack had a family tragedy, and stepped off, which was horrible. For the movie, the best person we could’ve possibly found was Joss. We got really lucky that he stepped in.” Affleck, who helmed the Best Picture-winning Argo, describes the resulting film as “*an interesting product of two directors, both with kind of unique visions, both with really strong takes. I’ve never had that experience before making a movie. I have to say, I really love working with Zack, and I really love the stuff we’ve done with Joss.*”
> 
> Affleck also brushed off rumors that the Justice League reshoots indicated problems with the film. “I’ve never worked on a movie that didn’t do reshoots,” Affleck says. “Argo, we did reshoots for a week and a half! Four days on Gone Baby Gone!” ...the actor is confident that Justice League reflects the best ambitions of the DC Extended Universe. “*This is a really nice time to work in DC. They’re hitting their stride. They’re getting it right. It’s starting to feel like it’s really working.*”


Sounds good  :Smile:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Ben Affleck addresses Justice League's director drama and reshoot rumors
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds good


Indeed! If they can blend Snyder and Whedon's respective visions into a cohesive whole, I don't think we'll have anything to worry about with this movie.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Jett from BOF says an early cut of Justice League was deemed "unwatchable". Thus, substantial changes to the film were ordered.


It's amazing how many "insiders" have a different take on what the early reactions to these early cuts of the film have been.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Jett from BOF says an early cut of Justice League was deemed "unwatchable". Thus, substantial changes to the film were ordered.


Interesting that there was also this report from BOF about early cuts of JL:

http://www.batman-on-film.com/dc-com...d_5-30-17.html

In that article, the early reaction was "Prepare to be impressed!" Someone in the comments section of this new BOF article (the one where he says the early reaction was that it was "unwatchable) calls out BOF for the conflicting info. The author responds in an irritated tone and said that the cut that was "unwatchable" was from Dec. 2016 or Jan 2017, and the cut that we should "Prepare to be Impressed!" is a more recent cut that features Joss Whedon's changes. 

To me, it sounds like BOF is full of crap.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Interesting that there was also this report from BOF about early cuts of JL:
> 
> http://www.batman-on-film.com/dc-com...d_5-30-17.html
> 
> In that article, the early reaction was "Prepare to be impressed!" Someone in the comments section of this new BOF article (the one where he says the early reaction was that it was "unwatchable) calls out BOF for the conflicting info. The author responds in an irritated tone and said that the cut that was "unwatchable" was from Dec. 2016 or Jan 2017, and the cut that we should "Prepare to be Impressed!" is a more recent cut that features Joss Whedon's changes. 
> 
> To me, it sounds like BOF is full of crap.


It does kind of stink, now that you mention it.  :Smile:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Lol I come back to this thread only to see people citing BoF as a source for something, time to dip out again.

----------


## Sirzechs

Seems DC will need to make colorful movies with incompetent killer planets before these insiders have something good to say about early cuts.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Interesting that there was also this report from BOF about early cuts of JL:
> 
> http://www.batman-on-film.com/dc-com...d_5-30-17.html
> 
> In that article, the early reaction was "Prepare to be impressed!" Someone in the comments section of this new BOF article (the one where he says the early reaction was that it was "unwatchable) calls out BOF for the conflicting info. The author responds in an irritated tone and said that the cut that was "unwatchable" was from Dec. 2016 or Jan 2017, and the cut that we should "Prepare to be Impressed!" is a more recent cut that features Joss Whedon's changes. 
> 
> To me, it sounds like BOF is full of crap.


BOF is now saying that the "Prepare to be impressed!" report wasn't even based on an actual cut of the film but just storyboards. And he's sticking with his report that the ENTIRE reason the reshoots occurred is because of a Dec. 2016 cut was deemed unwatchable, and soon thereafter Joss Whedon started planning the fixes, leading to the eventual reshoots.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> BOF is now saying that the "Prepare to be impressed!" report wasn't even based on an actual cut of the film but just storyboards.


Do they normally make favorable reports based solely on storyboards?  :Confused:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Do they normally make favorable reports based solely on storyboards?


I am not sure how one confuses a cut of the film with storyboards... lmao this is actually hilarious!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> BOF is now saying that the "Prepare to be impressed!" report wasn't even based on an actual cut of the film but just storyboards. And he's sticking with his report that the ENTIRE reason the reshoots occurred is because of a Dec. 2016 cut was deemed unwatchable, and soon thereafter Joss Whedon started planning the fixes, leading to the eventual reshoots.


So he makes a bunch of statements, then walks back one comment in order to further his "The DCEU is DOOMED!!!!" narrative? 

Yup! Seems like a legit and unbiased source of information to me! /Sarcasm  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I am not sure how one confuses a cut of the film with storyboards... lmao this is actually hilarious!


Sad, too, Baggie.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So he makes a bunch of statements, then walks back one comment in order to further his "The DCEU is DOOMED!!!!" narrative? 
> 
> Yup! Seems like a legit and unbiased source of information to me! /Sarcasm


He's relentless in the comment section. It's pretty sad.

----------


## Styles

BOF?

----------


## Darkseid Is

The hell is BOF?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The hell is BOF?


Batman on Film. 

Otherwise known as "Waaah! I don't WANT a shared DC universe! I just want standalone Batman movies! Because 'Batman' is in the name of my site, in case it wasn't clear where my sole interest lies!" .com

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Batman on Film. 
> 
> Otherwise known as "Waaah! I don't WANT a shared DC universe! I just want standalone Batman movies! Because 'Batman' is in the name of my site, in case it wasn't clear where my sole interest lies!" .com


So far Batman has been great in the DCEU. And I'm a person who breaks balls about the movies... I don't know. Batman is my favorite Superhero. I don't like it when different superheroes appear in the Batman book but I love it when Batman shows up in other books like Justice League.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Wow. Snyder...


The same studio that cut out all the Clark Kent scenes out of BvS, and butchered SS?

Yes, "wow, Snyder..." indeed.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> The same studio that cut out all the Clark Kent scenes out of BvS, and butchered SS?
> 
> Yes, "wow, Snyder..." indeed.


Rewatched both extended cuts last week and BvS is improved a whole lot. Still dark and joyless but it makes sense and has some fine moments, overall is touching and moving. SSextended on the other hand wishes it would be half as good as BvS extended. Take out Harley and its a movie nobody wants to rewatch. The problem with Leto's Joker is he isn't funny or entertaining. Nicholson's was. Ledger's, too. And why the f..k do you get Scott Eastwood then have him do nothing? Who signed off on that? Oh, yeah. The same studio that ruined the Hobbit. Three times.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Rewatched both extended cuts last week and BvS is improved a whole lot. Still dark and joyless but it makes sense and has some fine moments, overall is touching and moving. SSextended on the other hand wishes it would be half as good as BvS extended. Take out Harley and its a movie nobody wants to rewatch. The problem with Leto's Joker is he isn't funny or entertaining. Nicholson's was. Ledger's, too. And why the f..k do you get Scott Eastwood then have him do nothing? Who signed off on that? Oh, yeah. The same studio that ruined the Hobbit. Three times.


Hobbit was all on Peter Jackson. He even admitted to just winging it as the trilogy dragged on. WB ain't that bad. They are going to have their second biggest year in 2017, right after their third biggest year in 2016. And no other big studio would spend the amount on an artistic blockbuster that Warners did on _Mad Max: Fury Road_.

Anyway, this whole conjecture is based on a dumb statement by BOF, who have made it clear they don't particularly care for the rest of DC. This "Jett" person is still holding out hope for the DCEU to crash and burn so that WB goes back to self-contained Batman features.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Rewatched both extended cuts last week and BvS is improved a whole lot. Still dark and joyless but it makes sense and has some fine moments, overall is touching and moving. SSextended on the other hand wishes it would be half as good as BvS extended. Take out Harley and its a movie nobody wants to rewatch. The problem with Leto's Joker is he isn't funny or entertaining. Nicholson's was. Ledger's, too. And why the f..k do you get Scott Eastwood then have him do nothing? Who signed off on that? Oh, yeah. The same studio that ruined the Hobbit. Three times.


Watching BvS twice was enough for me. SS..never again, man lol.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Batman on Film. 
> 
> Otherwise known as "Waaah! I don't WANT a shared DC universe! I just want standalone Batman movies! Because 'Batman' is in the name of my site, in case it wasn't clear where my sole interest lies!" .com


I was wondering that myself. I've been on on Birds of Prey binge and automatically said "Birds of F..." and got a brain fart

----------


## Punisher007

For my, the extended cut fixes some structural issues with BVS, and the film makes more sense overall.  But it doesn't fix my biggest issues with the film, which are on a conceptually and tone level.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> For my, the extended cut fixes some structural issues with BVS, and the film makes more sense overall.  But it doesn't fix my biggest issues with the film, which are on a conceptually and tone level.


The latter I believe was the biggest problem by far most critics had with the film, IMO. That's why it still did fine at the box office, because there was enough people who had no problems whatsoever with the concept and tone.

----------


## Vanguard-01

But seriously, enough with the doomsayers! Let's get back to some fun speculation!  :Smile: 

I watched the JL trailer again, and I'm really curious about that bank robbery scene in the beginning. I can't imagine it's a coincidence that they went to great lengths to avoid showing us the leader's face. Also, if you look closely, you'll see that the people in the bank appear to react in horror at the mere sight of him. It's possible they were reacting to the sight of a man and his henchmen coming in with guns in their hands, but he was clearly in the front and he was only armed with a handgun. It's a little unlikely that everyone just happened to see the gun in his hand and reacted to that. It looks like they were reacting to the sight of HIM. Like he's some kind of instantly recognizable figure that the people know to be bad news. 

Possible surprise villain cameo? I can only think of two possible villains who are that immediately recognizable by their face and who are likely to be involved in bank robberies: Joker or Two-Face. Obviously, it can't be Joker, so that makes me think Two-Face. We don't actually know where that bank was from the trailer. Maybe Diana was visiting Gotham when the robbery went down and she just got there before Bruce could respond. Or maybe he was after something that was important enough for him to leave Gotham to go get it? 

It's possible it could be someone else as well, but if they were trying to hide the guy's face, that tells me that they wanted to avoid spoilers even for the comic fans, since we would probably instantly recognize him if we saw his face. 

So what do you think? Is it an established villain? Maybe someone who'll be important to the New Gods side of the story? Is Vanguard just massively overthinking things again?

----------


## Robotman

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...hanger-a153221

Very depressing if true. 

*spoilers:*
if Darkseid is downplayed there is going to be a ton of fans (myself included) that will be incredibly disappointed
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Confuzzled

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...hanger-a153221
> 
> Very depressing if true.


Not at all. Darkseid shouldn't be rushed. This gives a chance to flesh out the New Gods mythology properly and do it full justice in future movies. Well done.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Not at all. Darkseid shouldn't be rushed. This gives a chance to flesh out the New Gods mythology properly and do it full justice in future movies. Well done.


Absolutely. Darkseid is far too powerful and far too complex to just show up in the next battle as the next "Big Bad We Need To Smash." He should take his time before he shows up. He should draw up plans. He should prepare the way for his initial victory. He should rely heavily on his vast armies and powerful minions and he should ONLY get directly involved after these resources have failed him. 

I'm A-Okay with the idea of Darkseid being more of a long-game reveal. His presence in the DCEU should be FELT, rather than seen for quite a while. When he finally DOES show up, it should be a huge, pants-darkening moment for the heroes and the audience alike. 

One of the best uses of Darkseid EVER was his appearances in Superman the Animated Series. It took basically the entire show before Superman finally got into a true battle with Darkseid. Most of Darkseid's plots involved sending his minions out to do his dirty work. When he and Superman were actually in the same room, Darkseid either swatted him like a fly or just walked away from him like 'Pfff! You're beneath my notice, Superman!" 

THAT, in my mind, is exactly how Darkseid should be used.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Absolutely. Darkseid is far too powerful and far too complex to just show up in the next battle as the next "Big Bad We Need To Smash." He should take his time before he shows up. He should draw up plans. He should prepare the way for his initial victory. He should rely heavily on his vast armies and powerful minions and he should ONLY get directly involved after these resources have failed him. 
> 
> I'm A-Okay with the idea of Darkseid being more of a long-game reveal. His presence in the DCEU should be FELT, rather than seen for quite a while. When he finally DOES show up, it should be a huge, pants-darkening moment for the heroes and the audience alike. 
> 
> One of the best uses of Darkseid EVER was his appearances in Superman the Animated Series. It took basically the entire show before Superman finally got into a true battle with Darkseid. Most of Darkseid's plots involved sending his minions out to do his dirty work. When he and Superman were actually in the same room, Darkseid either swatted him like a fly or just walked away from him like 'Pfff! You're beneath my notice, Superman!" 
> 
> THAT, in my mind, is exactly how Darkseid should be used.


Well said. Darkseid is more than the Next Boss. Or even the Final Boss for that matter.

I also dig the way King is tackling Darkseid as a concept through the POV of Scott Free. So I would love if our first encounter with him is indeed in a _New Gods_ movie through the eyes of Scott and Barda and how he's affected their lives on multiple levels.

----------


## Agent Z

One thing I hope the JL movie does well is implementing the team's respective skills and powers more creatively. Diana and Arthur could lead their respective armies against Apokolips soldiers, Bruce and Victor can sneak aboard the ships to sabotage them and get vital advantages. Clark and Barry can personally take on Steppenwolf themselves.

Hopefully, Whedon doesn't just have them easily smash up enemy soldiers that are supposed to be frightening yet go down like the Putties from Power Rangers.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Well said. Darkseid is more than the Next Boss. Or even the Final Boss for that matter.
> 
> I also dig the way King is tackling Darkseid as a concept through the POV of Scott Free. So I would love if our first encounter with him is indeed in a _New Gods_ movie through the eyes of Scott and Barda and how he's affected their lives on multiple levels.


Definitely. A New Gods movie that deals with Darkseid, not as a character, but as a force that has had a profound impact on other people's lives, is a good way to hint at Darkseid's power and influence. If Scott, Barda, and perhaps even Orion and Highfather merely talk about "Darkseid" in these hushed tones of voice and reflect on the impact he has had on them, the audience will be fascinated. Who is this "Darkseid?" What does he want? How terrible must he be if these godlike beings can't bring themselves to mention his name in more than a hushed whisper? What will it be like when this......thing/person/force finally shows up and makes good on his/her/its fearsome reputation? 

If even one of the Justice Leaguers could guest star in this movie, it would be even better. Superman or Wonder Woman would be the most likely candidates. Can you imagine Superman sitting around the table with an entire pantheon of gods, listening to them fearfully describe this horrible creature and the power it wields? Bonus points if the movie somehow makes it clear that the New Gods are MUCH more powerful than Superman himself. The audience will be thinking "These people are more powerful than Superman and THEY'RE afraid of this 'Darkseid!' What can the League do against something like that?"

----------


## Bukdiah

> One thing I hope the JL movie does well is implementing the team's respective skills and powers more creatively. Diana and Arthur could lead their respective armies against Apokolips soldiers, Bruce and Victor can sneak aboard the ships to sabotage them and get vital advantages. Clark and Barry can personally take on Steppenwolf themselves.
> 
> *Hopefully, Whedon doesn't just have them easily smash up enemy soldiers that are supposed to be frightening yet go down like the Putties from Power Rangers*.


Spot on, man. I hate faceless minions that are just cannon fodder. There isn't any tension when they just easily smash their opposition like Ulton's robots and shit. I would also like to see Batman in a more of a stealth and planning role considering the opposition he'd have to face. Doesn't mean he can't beat up a few people along the way though lol.

My main fear is having a shitty ass light show at the end for the infamous "boss" battle. If it's epileptic beams and lights and slow motion, I may die in my seat.

----------


## Robotman

I'm all for Darkseid being portrayed as his classic Machiavellian self. Constantly scheming and not the mindless fighter we saw in Justice League: Origins. But I'm just worried he'll be downplayed too much. That part about "giving them the option for other villains" concerned me.
If this movie is a disaster I just hope the future plans for Darkseid aren't scrapped.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Hopefully, Whedon doesn't just have them easily smash up enemy soldiers that are supposed to be frightening yet go down like the Putties from Power Rangers.


Joss Whedon is not the director of "Justice League".

----------


## Agent Z

> Joss Whedon is not the director of "Justice League".


Yes he is. He may not be the original director but he is currently.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Yes he is. He may not be the original director but he is currently.


No, he's the guy directing some additional acenes and completing the post-production work already started by Zack. At least, that's what we've been told DOZENS of times. Allegedly, he's just filming a "connective tissue to link the bigger action set pieces that Snyder had already shot". So, I have no idea why he should be worrying about the way the Parademons are depicted in battle, since this is not part of his reshoots, RIGHT?

----------


## zoch

> Well said. Darkseid is more than the Next Boss. Or even the Final Boss for that matter.
> 
> I also dig the way King is tackling Darkseid as a concept through the POV of Scott Free. So I would love if our first encounter with him is indeed in a _New Gods_ movie through the eyes of Scott and Barda and how he's affected their lives on multiple levels.


it would be cool if the New Gods like Orion Barda and Scott had appearance in Justice League film be even better if we had New Gods film.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*New AQUAMAN Set Photo Provides A Closer Look At One Of The Villainous Armored Atlanteans*

----------


## Rogue Star

Sweet. Aquaman is going to be better than Wonder Woman (I think that movie was just good, not great).

----------


## BatmanJones

> Watching BvS twice was enough for me. SS..never again, man lol.


I watched BvS in cinema the day before critic embargo lifted. This has a lot to do with how badly I wanted to love it, but I've never hated a movie so much in my life.

I bought and watched the extended cut 2.5 times trying as hard as I could to find a way to love that movie and it was just impossible.

This is only my opinion--I shouldn't have to say that since I'm the one writing it so obviously it's my opinion, but people that loved the movie freak out so hard on those that didn't I feel the need to say IMO when I say that BvS (both versions) is not too dark; it's too dumb.

To paraphrase Obama "I'm not against all DCEU efforts (there is nothing in the world I wish I could love or at least like more than DC movies); I'm against dumb DCEU efforts."

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

For what it's worth, Batman on Film was one of very few sources who's inside info on Batman v. Superman turned out to be correct.




> But seriously, enough with the doomsayers! Let's get back to some fun speculation! 
> 
> I watched the JL trailer again, and I'm really curious about that bank robbery scene in the beginning. I can't imagine it's a coincidence that they went to great lengths to avoid showing us the leader's face. Also, if you look closely, you'll see that the people in the bank appear to react in horror at the mere sight of him. It's possible they were reacting to the sight of a man and his henchmen coming in with guns in their hands, but he was clearly in the front and he was only armed with a handgun. It's a little unlikely that everyone just happened to see the gun in his hand and reacted to that. It looks like they were reacting to the sight of HIM. Like he's some kind of instantly recognizable figure that the people know to be bad news.


I thought about that as well, it certainly seems like they're building up to a reveal with the robbers. I do think that Two-Fave is a bit too high profile for such a throwaway role (if that is what this is), but Black Mask would very much fit the picture. It certainly fits with how Goyer/Terrio used KGBeast in Batman v. Superman.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> Sweet. Aquaman is going to be better than Wonder Woman (I think that movie was just good, not great).


Really? I really enjoyed WW, my only complaint is the Ares fight but everything else kept me engaged in the movie

----------


## Rogue Star

Like I said after watching the movie, it had a lot of good moments that had really good build-up but they never quite paid off for me.  For me it's just a good movie, maybe better in some ways than BvS but it's not as entertaining (I really don't get the hype).  I think Aquaman is going to be the best and most entertaining DCEU movie so far.  And I put Batman v Superman above Wonder Woman and way above Man of Steel. But we'll see if it delivers on the potential that I see.

----------


## MadFacedKid

Really for me it's the opposite, I personally didn't like BvS at all, it had good moments but it didn't feel worth the ticket to me. MoS and Wonder Woman felt like cinematic experiences on the other hand. To me atleast. I'm expecting Aquaman to be big to, which would be insane if true given he's pretty much the black sheep of the Justice League main roster.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Jett says Snyder's first cut of JL was a "dark and convoluted mess". Man, I hope Whedon can save this movie because it sounds like a nightmare right now.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> Really for me it's the opposite, I personally didn't like BvS at all, it had good moments but it didn't feel worth the ticket to me. MoS and Wonder Woman felt like cinematic experiences on the other hand. To me atleast. I'm expecting Aquaman to be big to, which would be insane if true given he's pretty much the black sheep of the Justice League main roster.


I too preferred Man of Steel & Wonder Woman to Batman v. Superman. Though the latter was still decent to me, the stand-alone films were better. That's usually how it is in cinematic universes even in the MCU. Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron are considering inferior movies to the likes of Iron Man and The Winter Soldier because they had to set up a lot of films and were generally bogged down by a lot of plot lines. Batman v. Superman had a similar goal in the DCEU and it seems like the same issues occurred.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Jett says Snyder's first cut of JL was a "dark and convoluted mess". Man, I hope Whedon can save this movie because it sounds like a nightmare right now.


I doubt Jett knows what he's talking about. But if he's right, this is in WB for not going in another direction prior to production.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Like I said after watching the movie, it had a lot of good moments that had really good build-up but they never quite paid off for me.  For me it's just a good movie, maybe better in some ways than BvS but it's not as entertaining (I really don't get the hype). * I think Aquaman is going to be the best and most entertaining DCEU movie so far.*  And I put Batman v Superman above Wonder Woman and way above Man of Steel. But we'll see if it delivers on the potential that I see.


What a crazy time we live in to be able to say this about Aquaman

----------


## Punisher007

We've been that way since the other team managed to pull off making GOTG work.  Nothing is out of reach now it would seem.

----------


## Punisher007

> Really for me it's the opposite, I personally didn't like BvS at all, it had good moments but it didn't feel worth the ticket to me. MoS and Wonder Woman felt like cinematic experiences on the other hand. To me atleast. I'm expecting Aquaman to be big to, which would be insane if true given he's pretty much the black sheep of the Justice League main roster.


Agreed 100%.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I too preferred Man of Steel & Wonder Woman to Batman v. Superman. Though the latter was still decent to me, the stand-alone films were better. That's usually how it is in cinematic universes even in the MCU. Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron are considering inferior movies to the likes of Iron Man and The Winter Soldier because they had to set up a lot of films and were generally bogged down by a lot of plot lines. Batman v. Superman had a similar goal in the DCEU and it seems like the same issues occurred.


I think the last two minutes of MoS show a hope and some promises BvS didn't cash in. Clark goes back in his shell again, not out of it like BvS promises. I don't mind Clark killing Zod (I call him Superdeath from now on :Stick Out Tongue: ) or being Emo as someone who has struggled with depression himself it makes him even more of a hero for me. I don't mind Bruce loosing his shit AFTER watching a skyscraper full of his people crash and burn just because it is not what SOME fans wanted. What I don't like is how Snyder sets up BvS with his MoS ending, then goes "Just kidding, its worse from here on". Did he watch too much GoT? If you adapt Frank Miller's veteran Batman please do right by him because he's Frank Miller and he knows better than you (at least he did back in the 80s)

----------


## Thomas Crown

Slightly off-topic, but still relevant:

https://twitter.com/TheAVClub/status/896239589299556354

This is a real article from AV Club. Someone actually wrote this and an editor approved it. Let that sink in.

Now, please, don't you dare tell me that there's no media bias against Zack Snyder and every criticism he gets for his movies is entirely justified. This is getting out of control!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Slightly off-topic, but still relevant:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TheAVClub/status/896239589299556354
> 
> This is a real article from AV Club. Someone actually wrote this and an editor approved it. Let that sink in.
> 
> Now, please, don't you dare tell me that there's no media bias against Zack Snyder and every criticism he gets for his movies is entirely justified. This is getting out of control!


It's a very silly story, at the very least.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I doubt Jett knows what he's talking about. But if he's right, this is in WB for not going in another direction prior to production.


I agree on both points.  If JL truly is a mess right now then it is on WB/DC for not course correcting before JL.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I agree on both points.  If JL truly is a mess right now then it is on WB/DC for not course correcting before JL.


Seeing how "Jett" has been anti-DCEU since the moment it was announced, I doubt there's much, if any, truth to this. 

WB and Johns managed to course correct Wonder Woman which had already done shooting halfway when the BvS reviews came out. No way they wouldn't have tightened the reins for JL which hadn't even started shooting back then.

----------


## Confuzzled

> For what it's worth, Batman on Film was one of very few sources who's inside info on Batman v. Superman turned out to be correct.


BOF also said Wonder Woman was a similar mess and that the Amazons were supposed to be descended from Kryptonians. All they've been doing is spread negative rumors about the DCEU movies. If some movies don't turn out to be great then BOF only looks correct in retrospect.

----------


## Punisher007

> I think the last two minutes of MoS show a hope and some promises BvS didn't cash in. Clark goes back in his shell again, not out of it like BvS promises. I don't mind Clark killing Zod (I call him Superdeath from now on) or being Emo as someone who has struggled with depression himself it makes him even more of a hero for me. I don't mind Bruce loosing his shit AFTER watching a skyscraper full of his people crash and burn just because it is not what SOME fans wanted. What I don't like is how Snyder sets up BvS with his MoS ending, then goes "Just kidding, its worse from here on". Did he watch too much GoT? If you adapt Frank Miller's veteran Batman please do right by him because he's Frank Miller and he knows better than you (at least he did back in the 80s)


Yeah BVS regresses his character from where it is at the end of MOS.  I agree about that.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yeah BVS regresses his character from where it is at the end of MOS.  I agree about that.


I can see this argument, MOS ended on the premise that "I'm cool with being Superman now." But I would say the real conclusion was that he was going to openly and continuously be Superman, and BvS was the resulting complications his father warned about now that he was out in the open. I can see why people were over the "complications" piece though, while I enjoyed them.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> All they've been doing is spread negative rumors about the DCEU movies. If some movies don't turn out to be great then BOF only looks correct in retrospect.


Yeah, the "X project is a total mess" rumors are so vague that they have a chance of being true despite the fact that no proof is actually present.

Jett's full of crap, as are most of the click baiters. The movie could be garbage, but they sure as hell don't know it for a fact.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Wonder Woman is less than $3 million away from $800 million globally. Japan is the last market to open on August 25th. They may also re-release later in the year I read if they want to make a serious push for Oscar buzz (it'll be a limited re-release). It probably has another $3-5 million left in NA, guessing. Looking at the averages for DC movies in Japan, it should make at least another $10-15 million (might even be a little more). So, I think this movie finishes out around $820 million global, which is beyond phenomenal for a superhero origin film. 

As I've said before, as long as Justice League isn't an unwatchable mess, I don't see why it can't do Avengers style numbers North of $1.3-$1.6 billion (yes, the same was said for BvS, but look how that turned out).

In related but less important news, Wonder Woman and BvS have more critic reviews than Spiderman Homecoming and Guardians 2. Generally speaking, the more reviews, the lower the scores long term. Just making a point here that it appears more people wanted to voice their opinions on these DCEU movies than these last couple MCU ones. 
But, hey, no bias or MCU colored glasses, right?

----------


## Troian

In order to achieve Avengers numbers it will need a multiplier of 3 or higher assuming the ow is close to 200 million plus roughly 800 million or more from overseas gross. It also has to compete with the sequel to TFA, but it shouldn't hinder it too much. I'll make a safe bet and say it will near Beauty and The Beast numbers. 

And as for reviews, When the DCEU pumps out 15+ movies tell me if they still get 320 or more reviews.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> I can see this argument, MOS ended on the premise that "I'm cool with being Superman now." But I would say the real conclusion was that he was going to openly and continuously be Superman, and BvS was the resulting complications his father warned about now that he was out in the open. I can see why people were over the "complications" piece though, while I enjoyed them.


While I would have preferred a more hopeful Superman after MofS, I understand why they went in the direction they did and it does progress well from where the character was at the end of that movie. Clark had been told over and over again by his father to keep himself hidden until the right moment. However, Clark's overwhelming desire to help people kept him from ever living a normal life because he had to keep moving on in order to keep himself hidden. Zod's arrival forces Clark to stop hiding and stand revealed in front of the world as Pa Kent said he would one day have to, and changes the world. However, at the end of MofS, we see that Clark has managed to find a way to live among us as a human while also serving humanity as Superman. In essence, he's accepted both sides of himself, the human and the alien, and found a way to reconcile them, which is the heart of the film.

BvS is different challenge altogether, forcing both Clark & Superman with the reality that, while he's chosen to serve humanity, much of humanity fears and rejects him. In the end, though, he still chooses to sacrifice everything to save them, which, in turn, convinces the world he only wanted to help, most specifically in Bruce Wayne and Diana, whose faith in pure heroism is reignited after decades of loss and tragedy. 

It's really difficult to accuse the DCEU movies of being bereft of depth and ideas. They are bursting with them. It's a shame the execution of those ideas has been so lacking at times that audiences haven't responded to them until recently.

----------


## Punisher007

The problem is, it shouldn't take THREE movies (and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that he'll be full-on Superman by the end of JL) to get the Superman that people paid to see in the first place.  I gave it a pass in MOS, but with BVS it felt like Snyder was contriving "dark moments."  I didn't buy into what he was selling at all (it didn't help that said contrivance were really blatant and the movie was a mess narrative-wise).

It was basically "ok, you gave us one movie telling us why being Superman might make Clark miserable, and I gave you a pass on it because it was an origin story and there was enough good stuff going on elsewhere for me to still like the film.  But now you're doing it again, and doubling down on it, and I'm tired of it."  And the response shows that apparently a lot of other people were as well.

I don't about seeing two and a half hours of "Clark getting crapped on," nor and us not getting into his head more made it so that I still having caring about him.  It's like Snyder thinks that Superman is the least interesting thing in his own franchise.  It's all about "the idea" or Superman, but little with the actual character (a mistake that Bryan Singer also made).

It's one of Snyder's biggest flaws imo.  His ambitions often far exceeded his grasp/ability to execute them.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The problem is, it shouldn't take THREE movies (and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that he'll be full-on Superman by the end of JL) to get the Superman that people paid to see in the first place.  I gave it a pass in MOS, but with BVS it felt like Snyder was contriving "dark moments."  I didn't buy into what he was selling at all (it didn't help that said contrivance were really blatant and the movie was a mess narrative-wise).
> 
> It was basically "ok, you gave us one movie telling us why being Superman might make Clark miserable, and I gave you a pass on it because it was an origin story and there was enough good stuff going on elsewhere for me to still like the film.  But now you're doing it again, and doubling down on it, and I'm tired of it."  And the response shows that apparently a lot of other people were as well.
> 
> I don't about seeing two and a half hours of "Clark getting crapped on," nor and us not getting into his head more made it so that I still having caring about him.  It's like Snyder thinks that Superman is the least interesting thing in his own franchise.  It's all about "the idea" or Superman, but little with the actual character (a mistake that Bryan Singer also made).
> 
> It's one of Snyder's biggest flaws imo.  His ambitions often far exceeded his grasp/ability to execute them.


Agree. I've become resigned to the notion that fans will realize how much Snyder lacks as a storyteller after a few more non Snyder DCEU films knock it out of the park. 

Snyder strikes me as the kind of comic book store visitor that goes straight for the elseworld paperbacks and was never interested in the mainline takes in characters. His film adaptation decisions make more sense after thinking like this, and also explains his 300 and Watchmen projects (and the Injustice nightmare sequences in BvS).

I think Snyder largely gets credit for his passion and excitement for the characters we all love and for helping to get the DCEU going.

----------


## Bukdiah

*Karen Gillan Would Like to Play The Joker in a DCEU Movie*

http://screenrant.com/karen-gillan-i...er-dceu-movie/

----------


## adrikito

about the ending of JL movie:

https://www.newsarama.com/35924-just...-entirely.html

----------


## Bukdiah

> about the ending of JL movie:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/35924-just...-entirely.html


We'll see how things turn out I suppose. Whedon is making his presence felt supposedly.

----------


## Carabas

> about the ending of JL movie:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/35924-just...-entirely.html


And that would not be Whedon changing the ending, that would be the studio changing the ending after really bad feedback from test audiences.

----------


## adrikito

> *Karen Gillan Would Like to Play The Joker in a DCEU Movie*
> 
> http://screenrant.com/karen-gillan-i...er-dceu-movie/


.... The Flash movie was about Flashpoint, no? She can appear in a flashback of thomas wayne as martha and as the Joker..

----------


## Johnny

> about the ending of JL movie:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/35924-just...-entirely.html


I don't think this is anything new, I believe they said they changed it ever since they decided that JL won't be a two-parter, which was way before Joss came on board.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Is it spoilery





It is isn't it

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't think this is anything new, I believe they said they changed it ever since they decided that JL won't be a two-parter, which was way before Joss came on board.


Yeah, I think so too. There were also rumors of a New Gods movie being considered so they could have changed it into a long game (which would absolutely be the right way to go about it).




> Is it spoilery
> 
> It is isn't it


Not really. It's about an alleged previous ending which is now said to have been dropped. You may have a look if you want to know what NOT to expect at the end of the movie.

----------


## Carabas

> Is it spoilery
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is isn't it


Kinda, yeah.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Thx guys, I'll probably sit out. Appreciate nobody blurting it out either even if it's not technically a big spoiler.

----------


## Frontier

> *Karen Gillan Would Like to Play The Joker in a DCEU Movie*
> 
> http://screenrant.com/karen-gillan-i...er-dceu-movie/


I'd love to see her take over Leto's  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> about the ending of JL movie:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/35924-just...-entirely.html


I can't see this as anything but a good thing at this point.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I'd love to see her take over Leto's .
> 
> I can't see this as anything but a good thing at this point.


Ha, yeah, anything but Leto. It's just an interesting choice that she would say that character though.

The "lightening" of the tone is hella vague, but as long as it's not a quip-fest, I'm fine with it lol

----------


## Rogue Star

> *Karen Gillan Would Like to Play The Joker in a DCEU Movie*
> 
> http://screenrant.com/karen-gillan-i...er-dceu-movie/


A gender swapped JOKER on the big screen? Now that would be something!  Now that I've entertained the thought, I can not let it go.  I must have it... if only to see if Batman punches her like he did Ledger Joker! lol

----------


## Bukdiah

> A gender swapped JOKER on the big screen? Now that would be something!  Now that I've entertained the thought, I can not let it go.  I must have it... if only to see if Batman punches her like he did Ledger Joker! lol

----------


## Rogue Star

*Bale Batman voice* 

*"Where is it?!!!  WHERE IS IT?!!!"*




(Referring to her penis) = 3=

----------


## BatmanJones

> The problem is, it shouldn't take THREE movies (and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that he'll be full-on Superman by the end of JL) to get the Superman that people paid to see in the first place.  I gave it a pass in MOS, but with BVS it felt like Snyder was contriving "dark moments."  I didn't buy into what he was selling at all (it didn't help that said contrivance were really blatant and the movie was a mess narrative-wise).
> 
> It was basically "ok, you gave us one movie telling us why being Superman might make Clark miserable, and I gave you a pass on it because it was an origin story and there was enough good stuff going on elsewhere for me to still like the film.  But now you're doing it again, and doubling down on it, and I'm tired of it."  And the response shows that apparently a lot of other people were as well.
> 
> I don't about seeing two and a half hours of "Clark getting crapped on," nor and us not getting into his head more made it so that I still having caring about him.  It's like Snyder thinks that Superman is the least interesting thing in his own franchise.  It's all about "the idea" or Superman, but little with the actual character (a mistake that Bryan Singer also made).
> 
> It's one of Snyder's biggest flaws imo.  His ambitions often far exceeded his grasp/ability to execute them.


Amen, brother.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> .... The Flash movie was about Flashpoint, no? She can appear in a flashback of thomas wayne as martha and as the Joker..


I'd be excited for a Jeffrey Dean Morgan/Gunslinger Batman if only they hadn't already ruined it with railguns on the Batmobile. Thank you Burton. Thank you Snyder.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> A gender swapped JOKER on the big screen? Now that would be something!  Now that I've entertained the thought, I can not let it go.  I must have it... if only to see if Batman punches her like he did Ledger Joker! lol


Leto's Mr.J didn't entertain or was funny, he just oozed some creepy sexual tension (English isn't the mother language here don't know if comes across right, guys). My biggest fear is DCEU Joker never shows up again and they just joker-ize Black Mask. Biggest.Fear.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I don't think this has been posted yet: From blu-ray.com, the features on the upcoming Wonder Woman Sept 19 home media release:



> Special Features:
> 
>     Epilogue: Etta's Mission – Etta Candy gets the boys back together for a secret mission that could impact humanity's future.
>     Crafting the Wonder – Wonder Woman finally comes to life in her first, breathtaking solo film. Explore the journey to create an adventure worthy of DC's greatest warrior.
>     A Director's Vision: Themyscira: The Hidden Island
>     A Director's Vision: Beach Battle
>     A Director's Vision: A Photograph Through Time
>     A Director's Vision: Diana in the Modern World
>     A Director's Vision: Wonder Woman at War
> ...

----------


## Bukdiah

> Leto's Mr.J didn't entertain or was funny, *he just oozed some creepy sexual tension* (English isn't the mother language here don't know if comes across right, guys). My biggest fear is DCEU Joker never shows up again and they just joker-ize Black Mask. Biggest.Fear.


LMAO I kinda felt...something that's for sure. When he purred like a Puma, I was like "OK, WTF is going on?"

----------


## Bukdiah

> I don't think this has been posted yet: From blu-ray.com, the features on the upcoming Wonder Woman Sept 19 home media release:


Shit. I hope those features are on DVD as well. Already got it on hold at my library. They don't have many blu rays of course...

----------


## batnbreakfast

> LMAO I kinda felt...something that's for sure. When he purred like a Puma, I was like "OK, WTF is going on?"


Man, if they're adapting Frank Miller's Joker I'm fine with that but even then he didn't purr. That wasn't a bit much it was a sledgehammer followed by an anvil. I think Harley was a bit much, too.

Do you guys know what could be next in line for Wonder Woman? Storylines they could choose and adapt? Villains?

----------


## Bukdiah

> Man, if they're adapting Frank Miller's Joker I'm fine with that but even then he didn't purr. That wasn't a bit much it was a sledgehammer followed by an anvil. I think Harley was a bit much, too.
> 
> Do you guys know what could be next in line for Wonder Woman? Storylines they could choose and adapt? Villains?


Not sure how much weight the site carries, but according to DigitalSpy

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/won...-need-to-know/




> Prepare yourself for a leap across time between the first and second movies. Wonder Woman was set in 1918 at the end of World War I, whereas the sequel looks like it's going to be set in the '80s and follow a Cold War narrative. Initially it looked like we would find Diana in the modern day – which would put her in a post-Justice League world.
> 
> The '80s setting though suggests she'll be granted a second true standalone movie before she even encounters the likes of Batman and Superman.
> 
> We also know where Jenkins wants it set. Diana was based in the Louvre in the Wonder Woman, but the director has her eye on the home of superheroes – the United States.
> 
> "The story will take place in the US, which I think is right," Jenkins told Entertainment Weekly. "She's Wonder Woman. She's got to come to America. It's time."
> 
> There go our dreams of a Parisian adventure. At least Jenkins is committed to making Wonder Woman's invisible jet a big screen reality.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> LMAO I kinda felt...something that's for sure. When he purred like a Puma, I was like "OK, WTF is going on?"


I work in the industry and speaking to industry professionals have yet to meet one person who actually thought Leto's performance was even OK.  Most think it was pretty horrible.  I also have yet to work or speak to one person who thought BvS was anything more than Okay... most will say it was boring.  That would include working producers, directors, editors, writers, actors, casting directors.  I agree that Leto's performance was terrible and suspect that was why he was edited out.  It makes sense considering how much he was edited out apparently. 

Even here it is interesting to see that many of the people who insist that Wonder Woman was good not great are also the biggest BvS defenders.  Those very same people also always  have to throw in that BvS was better than Wonder Woman.  I also have yet to meet one person who would agree with that.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I work in the industry and speaking to industry professionals have yet to meet one person who actually thought Leto's performance was even OK.  Most think it was pretty horrible.  I also have yet to work or speak to one person who thought BvS was anything more than Okay... most will say it was boring.  That would include working producers, directors, editors, writers, actors, casting directors.  I agree that Leto's performance was terrible and suspect that was why he was edited out.  It makes sense considering how much he was edited out apparently. 
> 
> Even here it is interesting to see that many of the people who insist that Wonder Woman was good not great are also the biggest BvS defenders.  Those very same people also always  have to throw in that BvS was better than Wonder Woman.  I also have yet to meet one person who would agree with that.


Industry like film industry? What do you do? I always wanted to work there, but I'd probably be doing CGI stuff since I'm a computer programmer right now lol. Oh, how I'd like to be an extra with a line of dialogue...

People's likes and dislikes will vary of course. Just opinions after all. I didn't sing to the heavens after seeing WW, I thought it was alright, but can see why others would really love it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I work in the industry and speaking to industry professionals have yet to meet one person who actually thought Leto's performance was even OK.  Most think it was pretty horrible.  I also have yet to work or speak to one person who thought BvS was anything more than Okay... most will say it was boring.  That would include working producers, directors, editors, writers, actors, casting directors.  I agree that Leto's performance was terrible and suspect that was why he was edited out.
> 
> Even here it is interesting to see that many of the people who insist that Wonder Woman was good not great are also the biggest BvS defenders.  Those very same people also always  have to throw in that BvS was better than Wonder Woman.  I also have yet to meet one person who would agree with that.


I think it comes down to what each person is looking for. I'm no industry professional, I don't even play one on the internet, so my opinion is only my own...but I'll gladly raise my hand and say Leto's Joker is my favorite live action version. I'll also say that, while I thought Wonder Woman was a fantastic film (and definitely a better made film from a filmmaking standpoint), I absolutely adored BvS (Ultimate Cut) and it's my favorite of the DCEU. And the reason for both of my feelings on BvS & Leto is simple: we got something new. 

I've been reading comics now for 30 years. I've seen the older films, watched the hundreds of episodes of various animated series & own each DC Animated film. I've seen it all at this point. The last thing I want from the DCEU are retreads of things I've read & seen a thousand times. Leto's Joker was a take we hadn't seen before, and the portrayal of Superman and his path to acceptance was new too. Granted, not everything works - I'd prefer Leto to smile juuuust a bit more, and we could use a little less CGI for the boss battles at the end of films - but at least they're giving us new stuff. If I want a Superman without a problem in the world (and thus unrelateable to me), I'll check out the Reeve films. If I want a knee-slapping funny Joker, I'll check out Burton's Batman or select from a long list of Joker comics. I just want new things to experience. This is why I a tually lost interest in the MCU, and I was a big fan until Civil War came out. They stopped giving me new stuff, and started recycling some stuff. 

That's why I enjoy the DCEU so much. It's something I haven't seen before, even if they are borrowing story elements from the comics.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Industry like film industry? What do you do? I always wanted to work there, but I'd probably be doing CGI stuff since I'm a computer programmer right now lol. Oh, how I'd like to be an extra with a line of dialogue...
> 
> People's likes and dislikes will vary of course. Just opinions after all. I didn't sing to the heavens after seeing WW, I thought it was alright, but can see why others would really love it.


I'm a consistently working actor.  Don't want to say what I've done for obvious reasons.  My job shows in who I actually talk to on set or at the studios.

Doing CGI pays well in this business and when you work it is consistent!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I work in the industry and speaking to industry professionals have yet to meet one person who actually thought Leto's performance was even OK.  Most think it was pretty horrible.  I also have yet to work or speak to one person who thought BvS was anything more than Okay... most will say it was boring.  That would include working producers, directors, editors, writers, actors, casting directors.  I agree that Leto's performance was terrible and suspect that was why he was edited out.  It makes sense considering how much he was edited out apparently. 
> 
> Even here it is interesting to see that many of the people who insist that Wonder Woman was good not great are also the biggest BvS defenders.  Those very same people also always  have to throw in that BvS was better than Wonder Woman.  I also have yet to meet one person who would agree with that.


I vigorously defend BvS, but even I won't hesitate to acknowledge that Wonder Woman is better. I can acknowledge BvS has flaws, and my defense of the movie tends to center more on arguing against claims that it's "the worst thing ever." You didn't like it? Fine. But I just can't help but feel like people are exaggerating for the sake of hyperbole alone when they go on and on about just HOW bad it was in their eyes. 

But Wonder Woman? Yeah. Now THERE'S a comic book movie that basically did EVERYTHING right. It's not without flaws as well, but those flaws are so minor that they're hardly worth discussing. And the movie could not have been more faithful to the character as a bonus. I barely dared to dream that we'd see Diana's compassion and mercy on display as much as we did in this movie. She wasn't "perfect." She had flaws and made mistakes. She was just about "my" perfect Wonder Woman in almost every way. 

As for Suicide Squad? Yeah, the movie itself is still kind of fun for me, but I'll never defend it from the people who attack it on a strictly technical level. It was terribly put together in so many ways. I still find it entertaining, but that's about the only real defense I'll offer for it. 

And Leto's Joker? I wouldn't say his performance was "bad" in the technical sense. I just didn't feel like it was a good JOKER performance. He didn't seem like the Joker to me in any way. He was just some thug with a gimmick. His laugh was nothing that said "Joker" to me, and I just don't get why actors like Leto and Ledger insist on toning Joker's personality down to this bored, lethargic malaise. Joker's supposed to be manic, in my mind. He's wild, he's crazy, he's unpredictable, and he's high-energy. He's always the consummate showman, especially when he's murdering people.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I vigorously defend BvS, but even I won't hesitate to acknowledge that Wonder Woman is better. I can acknowledge BvS has flaws, and my defense of the movie tends to center more on arguing against claims that it's "the worst thing ever." You didn't like it? Fine. But I just can't help but feel like people are exaggerating for the sake of hyperbole alone when they go on and on about just HOW bad it was in their eyes.


Honestly no one that I've spoken to thinks it is terrible.  Most people were just bored for much of the movie.  I've said it here before and I can't explain quite why but for some reason other directors and writers don't seem to like Snyder.  I don't mean "aspiring" directors or writers... I mean studio employees for major shows.  Actors do seem to like him.  





> But Wonder Woman? Yeah. Now THERE'S a comic book movie that basically did EVERYTHING right. It's not without flaws as well, but those flaws are so minor that they're hardly worth discussing. And the movie could not have been more faithful to the character as a bonus. I barely dared to dream that we'd see Diana's compassion and mercy on display as much as we did in this movie. She wasn't "perfect." She had flaws and made mistakes. She was just about "my" perfect Wonder Woman in almost every way.


Most people I've talked to seem to waver on just how "good" Wonder Woman was.  As in was in just good, very good, or great.  For many it has seemed that WB hit  the mark.  




> As for Suicide Squad? Yeah, the movie itself is still kind of fun for me, but I'll never defend it from the people who attack it on a strictly technical level. It was terribly put together in so many ways. I still find it entertaining, but that's about the only real defense I'll offer for it.


I won't lie I've watched certain parts over a few times.  Haha... I guess it was entertaining.  The best thing about it was the casting of Robbie.  I've also said here before that the one thing WB/DC has seemed to get right is the casting of its heroes.  It is the villain casting (Eisenberg, Leto) that seems questionable.  At least getting the heroes right is a good thing.




> c
> And Leto's Joker? I wouldn't say his performance was "bad" in the technical sense. I just didn't feel like it was a good JOKER performance. He didn't seem like the Joker to me in any way. He was just some thug with a gimmick. His laugh was nothing that said "Joker" to me, and I just don't get why actors like Leto and Ledger insist on toning Joker's personality down to this bored, lethargic malaise. Joker's supposed to be manic, in my mind. He's wild, he's crazy, he's unpredictable, and he's high-energy. He's always the consummate showman, especially when he's murdering people.


Yeah... he just seemed like creepy, metro gangster thug.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think it comes down to what each person is looking for. I'm no industry professional, I don't even play one on the internet, so my opinion is only my own...but I'll gladly raise my hand and say Leto's Joker is my favorite live action version. I'll also say that, while I thought Wonder Woman was a fantastic film (and definitely a better made film from a filmmaking standpoint), I absolutely adored BvS (Ultimate Cut) and it's my favorite of the DCEU. And the reason for both of my feelings on BvS & Leto is simple: we got something new.


I'm definitely not saying that I've worked with everyone.  Just sharing that within a small sampling of people who've I worked with/spoken to in the last year and half that is what I've experienced.  I can defend what I personally liked about the Ultimate Cut, but for some it just isn't enough to make them want to see it if they haven't already.  I'll always admit that even if you've spoken to 200 even 300 people it is a small sampling.  Haha... that is what I've always said in the "Everyone I've spoken to thinks Green Lantern is black"  debate.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I'm a consistently working actor.  Don't want to say what I've done for obvious reasons.  My job shows in who I actually talk to on set or at the studios.
> 
> Doing CGI pays well in this business and when you work it is consistent!


Cool. We have our own actor in CBR. I'll be damned. Though I am being cautiously, skeptical of the things you say. This is the internet after all lol.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Cool. We have our own actor in CBR. I'll be damned. Though I am being cautiously, skeptical of the things you say. This is the internet after all lol.


Working actors are a dime a dozen in this town.  I'm not bragging in any way just sharing a perspective that others might find interesting.  Especially the one about other directors and writers having an almost personal dislike for Snyder's work.  Forget critics... that is the perspective that I personally find to be very odd.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Yeah... he just seemed like creepy, metro gangster thug.


I liked it. He was like this creepy urban royalty. Different but I don't mind different every now and again.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Working actors are a dime a dozen in this town.  I'm not bragging in any way just sharing a perspective that others might find interesting.  Especially the one about other directors and writers having an almost personal dislike for Snyder's work.  Forget critics... that is the perspective that I personally find to be very odd.


I've seen speculation that it's connected to Snyder's political beliefs. I don't know if it's true but I've heard it said Snyder is on the right/ libertarian side of the fence. As you probably know Hollywood , particularly among the creative production side of  things seems more left of the fence. Again, though, just speculation. There does seem to be this sort of " clique" in Hollywood.

So...Not asking you to give yourself away, but have you been in anything I probably would have seen?  A yes or no answer would do.  :Wink:

----------


## Darkseid Is

20 bucks says he's Affleck  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> 20 bucks says he's Affleck


I say it's Cavill!  :Wink:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Casey Affleck on his brother leaving the Batman role (at 6:40 of the podcast): http://www.weei.com/media/audio-chan...native-8-15-17

----------


## Bukdiah

> I say it's Cavill!


He's really...Jared Leto!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I've seen speculation that it's connected to Snyder's political beliefs. I don't know if it's true but I've heard it said Snyder is on the right/ libertarian side of the fence. As you probably know Hollywood , particularly among the creative production side of  things seems more left of the fence. Again, though, just speculation. There does seem to be this sort of " clique" in Hollywood.
> 
> So...Not asking you to give yourself away, but have you been in anything I probably would have seen?  A yes or no answer would do.


I've heard that before.  While I can believe it... I kind of hope it isn't true.  There is definitely a clique in Hollywood.  Everyone who was in the middle or on the right was very quiet this past fall in California.  As to your question... Yes.  I stress working actor not celebrity.  Haha.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Fan-made adaptation of David F. Sandberg's joke Shazam script.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Soooo....anyone see the thing Casey Affleck said? Basically accidentally blurted out that Ben is not doing The Batman. Seems like they're just doing their best to keep it under wraps for now and will announce after JL.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Soooo....anyone see the thing Casey Affleck said? Basically accidentally blurted out that Ben is not doing The Batman. Seems like they're just doing their best to keep it under wraps for now and will announce after JL.


He's not playing Batman? Or did he mean he wasn't directing it? I haven't heard Casey Affleck's interview.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> He's not playing Batman? Or did he mean he wasn't directing it? I haven't heard Casey Affleck's interview.


He's not going to do The Batman. See for yourself, step to the six minute mark.

----------


## Darkseid Is

He says "I don't think" and he says "I was just kinda making that up." Who knows! I'm not 100% convinced yet!

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> He says "I don't think" and he says "I was just kinda making that up." Who knows! I'm not 100% convinced yet!


He says the "I was just kinda making that up" after the host scares him into the notion that he just broke major news.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> He says the "I was just kinda making that up" after the host scares him into the notion that he just broke major news.


Can you just let me be in denial!

----------


## Darkseid Is

I'm only half-joking to be honest. I really want to see a solo Affleck Batman movie.

----------


## darkseidpwns

It all comes down to JL really.

----------


## byrd156

I just don't care at this point, about the future of the DCEU or whether Affleck is gonna stay as Batman.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I've seen speculation that it's connected to Snyder's political beliefs. I don't know if it's true but I've heard it said Snyder is on the right/ libertarian side of the fence. As you probably know Hollywood , particularly among the creative production side of  things seems more left of the fence. Again, though, just speculation. There does seem to be this sort of " clique" in Hollywood.


Well, they don't seem to have a problem with Clint Eastwood, who is far more vocal about his conservative beliefs.

I don't think Snyder is conservative btw. _Maybe_ libertarian as he is an Ayn Rand fan. His fondness for Randian ideologies kind of shows in DCEU Ma and Pa Kent's outlook IMO. They keep advocating that Kal-El doesn't owe anything to society (the larger collective) which is very in line with Rand's Objectivism theory.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It all comes down to JL really.


Agreed. If it is successful and at least decently received by critics, I think he will stick around for at least one solo Batman movie.




> I just don't care at this point, about the future of the DCEU...


Why would you say that now when things look brighter than they ever did for the movie universe thanks to Diana of Themyscira?

----------


## batnbreakfast

I really want to watch more from both Casey and Ben Affleck but they should be happy with what they do and if another Batman isn't what Ben wants... I think the DCEU makers finally started listening to the fans and the future looks bright. I'm looking forward to Aquadude, WW2 and the New Gods stuff already but will watch everything DC anyways.
It would be great to recast some roles AFTER Flashpoint and use  the new actors for many movies to come. On the recasting front I would love them to do Midnighter and Apollo in the Justice League instead of Bats and Supes. A crazy idea but why not choose similar roles to fill some shoes instead of having the same role played by different actors. Why not make a Plastic Man movie and dethrone Deadpool? There's such an amount of beloved characters and they should get them out in the open.

----------


## Agent Z

> I just don't care at this point, about the future of the DCEU or whether Affleck is gonna stay as Batman.


Then why are you here?

----------


## Agent Z

> He says the "I was just kinda making that up" after the host scares him into the notion that he just broke major news.


He says, "I don't think" before the host even points that out. Even he isn't sure himself. 

It's incredible how people will believe what is said about Affleck will or will not do if it comes from anyone but the man himself

----------


## Doctor Know

> I've seen speculation that it's connected to Snyder's political beliefs. I don't know if it's true but I've heard it said Snyder is on the right/ libertarian side of the fence. As you probably know Hollywood , particularly among the creative production side of  things seems more left of the fence. Again, though, just speculation. There does seem to be this sort of " clique" in Hollywood.
> 
> So...Not asking you to give yourself away, but have you been in anything I probably would have seen?  A yes or no answer would do.





> Well, they don't seem to have a problem with Clint Eastwood, who is far more vocal about his conservative beliefs.
> 
> I don't think Snyder is conservative btw. _Maybe_ libertarian as he is an Ayn Rand fan. His fondness for Randian ideologies kind of shows in DCEU Ma and Pa Kent's outlook IMO. They keep advocating that Kal-El doesn't owe anything to society (the larger collective) which is very in line with Rand's Objectivism theory.


Maybe not for Clint Eastwood, because he writes, directs and produces his own movies now. However, both James Woods and Tim Allen have spoken publically about how their conservative politics can affect and has affected them getting work in Hollywood. Since MOS and BvS, we've noticed a hefty amount of the criticisms being lobbed at Snyder himself for his ideas/interpretations, on top of the faults people claim to find with his movies. I say claim, because other movies do the same thing, and touch on similar things (sometimes in the same year) as a Snyder film and you never hear about. 


The line between criticism and demagoguery and ad hominem has been blurred by people, critics and commentators on the internet. The vitriol Snyder gets makes him a distraction, to the bigger goings on with the DCEU. The anticipation and excitement we should be feeling for upcoming movies.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Not sounding great from Casey but I think it's an on the spot analysis based on Ben's recent turmoil. I think JL is a big part of it and “[I] would be a fucking ape on the ground for Matt Reeves" connects him to the movie directly. Maybe he should release another statement though after this, we know it's going to catch fire.

----------


## Rogue Star

I hate that Ben has to put up with this stuff.  If I were him this rumor crap (to put it nicely) is what would make me quit being Batman.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> It all comes down to JL really.


I think if Ben has already told his brother he's done after JL it's an indication of what Ben thinks the critical reception of the film is going to be.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Looks like that statement from Casey Affleck was YET ANOTHER case of "Let's take a joke out of context and try to convince people that the DCEU is doomed!"

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Looks like that statement from Casey Affleck was YET ANOTHER case of "Let's take a joke out of context and try to convince people that the DCEU is doomed!"


Meh. I don't think this is a "doomed" piece of news. They'll just cleverly recast a younger Bruce through Flashpoint. 

Fact of the matter is his brother got the notio of him not doing the Batman solo film from somewhere. No big deal in my opinion that they just wait until free Justice League is done with its run to announce.

----------


## Outside_85

> I've seen speculation that it's connected to Snyder's political beliefs. I don't know if it's true but I've heard it said Snyder is on the right/ libertarian side of the fence. As you probably know Hollywood , particularly among the creative production side of  things seems more left of the fence. Again, though, just speculation. There does seem to be this sort of " clique" in Hollywood.
> 
> So...Not asking you to give yourself away, but have you been in anything I probably would have seen?  A yes or no answer would do.


I would say that if its about Snyder's work, then it's unlikely to have much of anything to do with his political beliefs... otherwise it's just misdirected. Like, his movies aren't 'political' as such or pointing at one party or another being superior... the hottest water he's been in when it came to politics were the Iranians getting cross about the depiction of Xerxes in 300... which they should have taken to Frank Miller anyways.
As for attacking his work, far be it for me to say everyone in Hollywood is on the same page, but I imagine if you look hard enough you will find people who don't like any given directors or actors work. Plus, who knows, they could just be jelly  :Smile:

----------


## Powertool

One thing I have to say about Zack is that it's hard, I mean, _really_ hard for me to frame him on a personal level. According to the people who have worked under him, he appears to be a calm, friendly guy who's always interested in what the actors he directs have to propose. At the same time, he once came up with a sentence the likes of "I made _Watchmen_ to save it from the Terry Gilliams of this world".  :EEK!:  

I know that Gilliam was once attached to the project of a cinematographic adaptation of Moore's masterpiece before Snyder inherited the undertaking, but why using such words against a cool guy like Terry, a director who is practically cursed with bad luck every time he works for big studios and despite this is still the author of veritable cinematographic milestones, let alone revered by anybody who's ever worked under him?  :Confused: 

I've never been a Snyder detractor, but I often wonder why he sometimes goes into full Michael Bay mode?

----------


## Doctor Know

> One thing I have to say about Zack is that it's hard, I mean, _really_ hard for me to frame him on a personal level. According to the people who have worked under him, he appears to be a calm, friendly guy who's always interested in what the actors he directs have to propose. At the same time, he once came up with a sentence the likes of "I made _Watchmen_ to save it from the Terry Gilliams of this world".  
> 
> I know that Gilliam was once attached to the project of a cinematographic adaptation of Moore's masterpiece before Snyder inherited the undertaking, but why using such words against a cool guy like Terry, a director who is practically cursed with bad luck every time he works for big studios and despite this is still the author of veritable cinematographic milestones, let alone revered by anybody who's ever worked under him? 
> 
> I've never been a Snyder detractor, *but I often wonder why he sometimes goes into full Michael Bay mode?*


Bay and Snyder attened the same film school. That probably attributes to their similar film styles.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I hate that Ben has to put up with this stuff.  *If I were him this rumor crap (to put it nicely) is what would make me quit being Batman.*


To be honest, I think that's _exactly_ why some DCEU haters are deliberately spreading these rumors. Since "Sad Ben" became a thing, he has been singled out as a vulnerable piece of the DCEU, and him going through personal problems and having to opt out of the director's chair just provided fodder.

It's sad to see him targeted like this but I think some people do want him to grow exhausted and just quit, which would add to their sky is falling narrative.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Had to say this, but I'm just burned out on comic book related stuff atm, all the hype for JL is just gone for now. I hope it comes back near November /;

----------


## byrd156

> Bay and Snyder attened the same film school. That probably attributes to their similar film styles.


I'm in film school right now and that doesn't make sense at all.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Had to say this, but I'm just burned out on comic book related stuff atm, all the hype for JL is just gone for now. I hope it comes back near November /;


I haven't been hyped for a movie in a while. It usually ends up hurting me lol

----------


## Powertool

> Bay and Snyder attened the same film school. That probably attributes to their similar film styles.


I was actually referring to Mr. Bay's _personality_. While he also has his good moments, he can be a really unpleasant person when somebody questions his "creative" choices. Ben Affleck being curtly sent to his corner on the set of _Armageddon_ when he asked the director if teaching a man how to be a driller is actually more complicated than teaching him how to be an astronaut comes to mind.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I was actually referring to Mr. Bay's _personality_. While he also has his good moments, he can be a really unpleasant person when somebody questions his "creative" choices. Ben Affleck being curtly sent to his corner on the set of _Armageddon_ when he asked the director if teaching a man how to be a driller is actually more complicated than teaching him how to be an astronaut comes to mind.


Hollywood is replete with egomaniacs; it's the rare Hollywood luminary who is genuinely humble and considerate of others.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Confuzzled

> Hollywood is replete with egomaniacs; it's the rare Hollywood luminary who is genuinely humble and considerate of others.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Believe it or not, but Snyder himself is said to be very considerate despite his reputation. It's the reason so many people in the industry are so fiercely loyal to him.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*New pics from Aquaman*

----------


## Outside_85

> I know that Gilliam was once attached to the project of a cinematographic adaptation of Moore's masterpiece before Snyder inherited the undertaking, but why using such words against a cool guy like Terry, a director who is practically cursed with bad luck every time he works for big studios and despite this is still the author of veritable cinematographic milestones, let alone revered by anybody who's ever worked under him?


I think he said that because he, as a comicbook fan, didn't want to risk Watchmen being re-imagined through anything like a Monty Python filter the likes of which can be seen in much of Gilliam's work. Imagine the Watchmen end-credits rolling to the sound of 'Always look on the bright side of life.'

----------


## Bukdiah

*Ben Affleck promises 'a more traditional Batman' in Justice League*

http://ew.com/movies/2017/08/15/ben-...alflow_twitter




> And the character is very different, too. BvS departed a little bit from the traditional Batman, says Affleck. He started out with all this rage directed at Superman, because of his coworkers who had died in the fight Superman had with Zod. For Affleck, most of the heros ensuing actions were defined by barely-repressed fury  in contrast to the Batman we meet in Justice League. He was holding on to a lot of anger, in a little bit of an irrational way, Affleck says. Whereas this is a much more traditional Batman. Hes heroic. He does things in his own way, but he wants to save people, help people.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> *Ben Affleck promises 'a more traditional Batman' in Justice League*
> 
> http://ew.com/movies/2017/08/15/ben-...alflow_twitter


We kind of knew that by the end of BvS, Ben.  :Smile:

----------


## Powertool

> I think he said that because he, as a comicbook fan, didn't want to risk Watchmen being re-imagined through anything like a Monty Python filter the likes of which can be seen in much of Gilliam's work. Imagine the Watchmen end-credits rolling to the sound of 'Always look on the bright side of life.'


As far as I'm concerned, after watching Gilliam's adaptation of Hunter S. Thompson's _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ (another work that many thought could simply not be adapted to another medium) several times, I find the idea that a _Watchmen_ movie made by him instead of Snyder would have been _Monty Python and the Minutemen_ a little laughable.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> As far as I'm concerned, after watching Gilliam's adaptation of Hunter S. Thompson's _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ (another work that many thought could simply not be adapted to another medium) several times, I find the idea that a _Watchmen_ movie made by him instead of Snyder would have been _Monty Python and the Minutemen_ a little laughable.


Zack said that because of the radical changes that Gilliam would bring to the story.

https://thedissolve.com/news/1626-za...from-the-terr/

You can argue that Zack could have worded that better, but he's got a point.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Zack said that because of the radical changes that Gilliam would bring to the story.
> 
> https://thedissolve.com/news/1626-za...from-the-terr/
> 
> You can argue that Zack could have worded that better, but he's got a point.


"To save it from the Terry Gilliams of the world?" Rofl. It's reassuring to know that Zack can be as over the top hyperbolic as some of his haters.

----------


## Outside_85

> As far as I'm concerned, after watching Gilliam's adaptation of Hunter S. Thompson's _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ (another work that many thought could simply not be adapted to another medium) several times, I find the idea that a _Watchmen_ movie made by him instead of Snyder would have been _Monty Python and the Minutemen_ a little laughable.


Not if you look at the vast majority of Gilliams work, where Fear and Loathing is more of an exception rather than a rule.

Plus:




> Zack said that because of the radical changes that Gilliam would bring to the story.
> 
> https://thedissolve.com/news/1626-za...from-the-terr/
> 
> You can argue that Zack could have worded that better, but he's got a point.


Reading that, yeah thats kinda what I was worried about. You take one of the most important and well regarded comicbooks ever made and give it to a director and producer who immediately try to fix big chuncks of it for no reason other than their personal senses. Yes, Snyder did ofc make changes of his own... but ending the whole thing with Manhattan going back in time to undo the whole thing? Thats just kind of missing the point.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Ben Affleck's rep:

*"He'll continue to be Batman as long as the studio will have him."*

http://www.cinemablend.com/news/1693...out-the-batman

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Ben Affleck's rep:
> 
> *"He'll continue to be Batman as long as the studio will have him."*
> 
> http://www.cinemablend.com/news/1693...out-the-batman


So that means he's gone after _JL_, right?  :Wink:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> So that means he's gone after _JL_, right?


CALLED IT
CALLED IT
CALLED IT


(Sorry, couldn't resist)

----------


## Buried Alien

It'd be ironic if in the end, Affleck plays Batman (live action) longer than any other actor has.

Bale presently holds that title with three movies over the span of seven years.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Vanguard-01

Grace Randolph has a very credible source who says WB has narrowed down their choice of directors for Justice League Dark down to two. Daniel Espinosa and Gerard Johnstone. 

I know Espinosa and think he'd do a good job. Don't know Johnstone, but he comes pretty highly recommended, so I'd definitely be happy to give him a chance.

----------


## Johnny

Oh god... Grace is very pleasant to look at and not nearly as pleasant to listen to. I know, I'm such a horrible sexist I know. On a serious note, has her "scoops" ever been accurate before?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Oh god... Grace is very pleasant to look at and not nearly as pleasant to listen to. I know, I'm such a horrible sexist I know. On a serious note, has her "scoops" ever been accurate before?


As she says in the video, this same source told her about Mel Gibson being considered for Suicide Squad 2, but he/she/whatever did so off the record, so she couldn't say anything about it until the general announcement.

This scoop was given to her on the record, so that's a good sign.

----------


## Carabas

> As she says in the video, this same source told her about Mel Gibson being considered for Suicide Squad 2...


Say what?

I'm not even torrenting it if that turns out to be true.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Say what?
> 
> I'm not even torrenting it if that turns out to be true.


He was considered and negotiations took place, but he apparently passed on it. Nothing to worry about.

----------


## Darkseid Is

Who wouldn't love to see ol' Mel in Suicide 2? Who would he play?

----------


## Darkseid Is

Maxwell Lord  :EEK!:  That would be amazing.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Who wouldn't love to see ol' Mel in Suicide 2? Who would he play?


He was being considered for director, not an acting role.

I think he could've done well as director. SS2 is definitely in his wheelhouse.

----------


## Darkseid Is

Ah, I see. Sound interesting. Like "So crazy it just might work" interesting.

----------


## Darkseid Is

I disagree that Suicide Squad movie would the type of movie he would make though. The films he's directed seem to be passion projects.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Ah, I see. Sound interesting. Like "So crazy it just might work" interesting.


I mean, he did just come off of directing Hacksaw Ridge, which was nominated for Best Picture I think, and he was nominated for Best Director. So, its not that crazy.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I mean, he did just come off of directing Hacksaw Ridge, which was nominated for Best Picture I think, and he was nominated for Best Director. So, its not that crazy.


I may have worded that wrong. I meant "So crazy it just might happen." Like it's ridiculous.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I would have liked Gibson in the director's chair but I liked Ayer, too. Completely bummed about Ayer/WSmith make a movie like SS then make something that looks as cool as Bright.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

So Blight is good?

I loooooved Apokalypto, so think Gibson (who's got talent, no doubt) would've made a great Suicide Squad movie with Robbie, Smith and Davis.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> So Blight is good?
> 
> I loooooved Apokalypto, so think Gibson (who's got talent, no doubt) would've made a great Suicide Squad movie with Robbie, Smith and Davis.


I have no idea but the trailer sure looks pretty enough (well, so did one of the SS trailers...). Just thinking Gibson could pull off a SS movie, I liked Apokalypto and Braveheart enough.

----------


## Powertool

> Zack said that because of the radical changes that Gilliam would bring to the story.
> 
> https://thedissolve.com/news/1626-za...from-the-terr/
> 
> You can argue that Zack could have worded that better, but he's got a point.


Well... not really. I just have to take a look at Guillermo Del Toro's _Hellboy_ movies to see another example of a director playing fast and loose with the universe of an established milestone of American comic books and still managing to create an exceptional product that perfectly stands on its own. 99 out of 100 times the value of an adaptation is not jeopardized by the changes from the original material, but rather by the way those changes are staged and the conservation of an (albeit changed) internal consistency. 

As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Gilliam's precedents make me think that it's quite unlikely that his adaptation of _Watchmen_ would have been something we should have been saved from. Though yes, there were a million more tactful ways for Zack to express his opinion about Gilliam's project.




> Not if you look at the vast majority of Gilliams work, where Fear and Loathing is more of an exception rather than a rule.


Absolutely. The first thing I think of every time I re-watch _12 Monkeys_ is how Monty Python-esque everything in the cinematography looks. It even has a freeze-frame bonus featuring Pitt and Willis stomped by a giant foot.




> Reading that, yeah thats kinda what I was worried about. You take one of the most important and well regarded comicbooks ever made and give it to a director and producer who immediately try to fix big chuncks of it for no reason other than their personal senses. Yes, Snyder did ofc make changes of his own... but ending the whole thing with Manhattan going back in time to undo the whole thing? Thats just kind of missing the point.


Tim Burton in his 1989 _Batman_ movie made the Joker and Joe Chill the same character and had the titular protagonist killing him at the end of the movie, giving the character of Batman a sense of closure that is absolutely unthinkable in the vast majority of Batman comic books (let alone pissing over the corpse of the "no kill!" rule), and I've never seen outcries about Burton not getting Ol' Batsy's character. Again, a change to the source material, however big, is perfectly fine as long as the responsible for such change can handle the different economy of the story.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Well... not really. I just have to take a look at Guillermo Del Toro's _Hellboy_ movies to see another example of a director playing fast and loose with the universe of an established milestone of American comic books and still managing to create an exceptional product that perfectly stands on its own. 99 out of 100 times the value of an adaptation is not jeopardized by the changes from the original material, but rather by the way those changes are staged and the conservation of an (albeit changed) internal consistency. 
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Gilliam's precedents make me think that it's quite unlikely that his adaptation of _Watchmen_ would have been something we should have been saved from. Though yes, there were a million more tactful ways for Zack to express his opinion about Gilliam's project.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. The first thing I think of every time I re-watch _12 Monkeys_ is how Monty Python-esque everything in the cinematography looks. It even has a freeze-frame bonus featuring Pitt and Willis stomped by a giant foot.
> 
> 
> ...


He didn't kill him at the end. He tried to catch him but joker slipped or let go.

----------


## Rogue Star

Just  watched a video on the supposed leaked changes to Justice League.  It sounds to me like it's nothing but a bunch of world building stuff getting cut out.  Basically what should have happened with Batman v Superman is happening to Justice League right now - streamlining and cutting out the stuff that's supposed to set up individual movies - if the video can be believed.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Just  watched a video on the supposed leaked changes to Justice League.  It sounds to me like it's nothing but a bunch of world building stuff getting cut out.  Basically what should have happened with Batman v Superman is happening to Justice League right now - streamlining and cutting out the stuff that's supposed to set up individual movies - if the video can be believed.


If you watched the same video I did, then I agree with your assessment. And a lot of those potential spoilers sound extremely plausible to me, so I'm willing to give them a little more credibility than most movie rumors.

----------


## Confuzzled

I wouldn't mind if that video is legit. It posits that extraneous subplots setting up various upcoming movies have been removed and in their place there have been added more character moments.

That was basically what I was hoping for with these reshoots. Now hopefully Justice League feels like its own film instead of a giant advertisement for the DCEU.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Link to the video?

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I'm only going off of what was said here, but that can also mean they want JL self contained and not bleeding out too much within the DCEU. Which to me means a soft reboot ala Flashpoint IS a possibility looking more likely every day. 

The biggest problem here is this: WB let Snyder set up the foundation to the DCEU. What Snyder and the studio didn't do was follow the MCU formula with introduction solos before the big one. Was that necessary? Honestly, no. But I think WB lacks faith in the current trajectory. Look at the lack of Man of Steel 2 news as one example. This really comes down to WB pushing too much too soon and now they've been caught in a bind. To me it's obvious.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Link to the video?


This is the one I watched and assumed it was the same one the others were talking about (major spoilers, and no, despite Armie Hammer GL image appearing in the thumbnail neither Hammer or GL are mentioned in the video, so that's not a giveaway nor is Black Super Suit with beard  :Stick Out Tongue: ):

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm only going off of what was said here, but that can also mean they want JL self contained and not bleeding out too much within the DCEU. Which to me means a soft reboot ala Flashpoint IS a possibility looking more likely every day. 
> 
> The biggest problem here is this: WB let Snyder set up the foundation to the DCEU. What Snyder and the studio didn't do was follow the MCU formula with introduction solos before the big one. Was that necessary? Honestly, no. But I think WB lacks faith in the current trajectory. Look at the lack of Man of Steel 2 news as one example. This really comes down to WB pushing too much too soon and now they've been caught in a bind. To me it's obvious.


That's assuming a lot IMO. Ensuring JL is a lot more self-contained would also be to curb criticisms of "too much setup for future films".

----------


## Thomas Crown

> I'm only going off of what was said here, but that can also mean they want JL self contained and not bleeding out too much within the DCEU. Which to me means a soft reboot ala Flashpoint IS a possibility looking more likely every day.


There's this theory that Geoff Johns deliberately turned the Flash solo movie into a Flashpoint adaption just to change a lot of creative decisions made before he was put in charge of the DCEU and we can expect more "traditional" versions of Superman, Lex Luthor and the Joker (including recastings for the latter two) and the erasing of "controversial" moments, like Superman killing Zod. Well, IF this turns out to be true, I will be definitely done with the DCEU.

----------


## Confuzzled

Flashpoint is probably still 3 years away.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I'm only going off of what was said here, but that can also mean they want JL self contained and not bleeding out too much within the DCEU. Which to me means a soft reboot ala Flashpoint IS a possibility looking more likely every day. 
> 
> The biggest problem here is this: WB let Snyder set up the foundation to the DCEU. What Snyder and the studio didn't do was follow the MCU formula with introduction solos before the big one. Was that necessary? Honestly, no. But I think WB lacks faith in the current trajectory. Look at the lack of Man of Steel 2 news as one example. This really comes down to WB pushing too much too soon and now they've been caught in a bind. To me it's obvious.


I think it's just them taking the right lessons away from Wonder Woman. Also Joss Whedon had such a miserable experience with Age of Ultron that he likely wants to avoid the same issues.  I do believe we're getting past the days of movies having to set up other movies. Which is a good thing.

----------


## Frontier

I can't imagine they'd be doing _Flashpoint_ and not change a few things, and obviously with the noted shift in tone and direction it gives them an opportunity to drop or change things people may not have responded to in the movies before.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Please DCEU, don't recast post Flashpoint just use similar characters (Midnighter or Green Arrow instead of Batfleck for example) for your JL. Don't give us what we' ve already read in the comics.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Please DCEU, don't recast post Flashpoint just use similar characters (Midnighter or Green Arrow instead of Batfleck for example) for your JL. Don't give us what we' ve already read in the comics.


WB will never outright replace Batman with another character.

But there's a tiny chance that they could be convinced to let Dick inherit the cowl, especially if he is well-received in the DCEU.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Joss Whedon's ex-wife just heavily trashed him in a blog post on the wrap. She accused him of being a serial adulterer and a fake feminist. Yikes.

----------


## Rogue Star

A fake feminist?  Whedon?  That's funny. I wonder what she means by that. Gonna look into it.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Joss Whedon's ex-wife just heavily trashed him in a blog post on the wrap. She accused him of being a serial adulterer and a fake feminist. Yikes.


They are exes for a reason. Lady sounding bitter as hell lol.

----------


## Rogue Star

> They are exes for a reason. Lady sounding bitter as hell lol.


Apparently, he wrote her a letter confessing what he did when their marriage was falling apart. But anyway, they picked a bad time to ask her how she felt about Whedon.  :P

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'm sure the more outlandish SJW's are going to have a field day with this.

One can be a feminist and/or create art that has feminist themes and not be a perfect individual towards the opposite sex at all times. People are complicated like that.

Besides, it's Hollywood. We'd have nothing to watch if we get bothered every time an actor/director/writer/producer, etc. cheats on their spouse. Just operate under the assumption that everyone in that crowd is being unfaithful, and be grateful they're not doing something _worse_.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Apparently, he wrote her a letter confessing what he did when their marriage was falling apart. But anyway, they picked a bad time to ask her how she felt about Whedon.  :P


If that's the case, then indeed. Weird how they never asked her until now, guys been a hot commodity for a while. You'd think they'd want her input earlier with all the hit Marvel movies he helped create.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Besides, it's Hollywood. We'd have nothing to watch if we get bothered every time an actor/director/writer/producer, etc. cheats on their spouse. Just operate under the assumption that everyone in that crowd is being unfaithful, and be grateful they're not doing something _worse_.


Yeah. Jerrod Carmichael had a great bit about this. Any time a celebrity fucks up, they just gotta make a nice project and all is swept under the rug. So how much did we really care in the first place?

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I'm sure the more outlandish SJW's are going to have a field day with this.
> 
> One can be a feminist and/or create art that has feminist themes and not be a perfect individual towards the opposite sex at all times. People are complicated like that.
> 
> Besides, it's Hollywood. We'd have nothing to watch if we get bothered every time an actor/director/writer/producer, etc. cheats on their spouse. Just operate under the assumption that everyone in that crowd is being unfaithful, and be grateful they're not doing something _worse_.


I mean, he could be Victor Salva  :Wink:

----------


## golgi

Nobody thought Wonder Woman would do this well.




> Highest Grossing Comic Book Films
> 
> 1. Marvel’s The Avengers (2012) — 623.4 million
> 2. The Dark Knight (2008) — 534.9 million
> 3. Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) — 459.0 million
> 4. The Dark Knight Rises (2012) — 448.1 million
> 5. Iron Man 3 (2013) — 409.0 million
> 6. Captain America: Civil War (2016) — 408.1 million
> *7. Wonder Woman (2017) — 404.0 million^*
> ...





> Best Multipliers Ever for $70+ Million Opening Films (Friday Openers):
> 
> 1. Avatar (2009) — 77.0 million (9.73)
> 2. Finding Nemo (2003) — 70.3 million (4.84)
> 3. Zootopia (2016) — 75.1 million (4.55)
> 4. Inside Out (2015) — 90.4 million (3.94)
> 5. American Sniper (2015) — 89.3 million (3.92)
> *6. Wonder Woman (2017) — 103.3 million (3.91)*
> 7. Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015) — 248.0 million (3.78)
> ...

----------


## Confuzzled

Wonder Woman is now officially the highest grossing superhero origin film in North America after beating the original Spider-Man and has passed the 800M mark worldwide

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm sure the more outlandish SJW's are going to have a field day with this.
> 
> One can be a feminist and/or create art that has feminist themes and not be a perfect individual towards the opposite sex at all times. People are complicated like that.
> 
> Besides, it's Hollywood. We'd have nothing to watch if we get bothered every time an actor/director/writer/producer, etc. cheats on their spouse. Just operate under the assumption that everyone in that crowd is being unfaithful, and be grateful they're not doing something _worse_.


I dunno, it appears he did take advantage of the young women who were looking to break into the industry. That seems more than a cheating scandal and not very feminist. I think all his affairs were consensual but there is still a level of ick with a man in a higher position exploiting women under his employment or who were seeking to be employed by him.

The creepy factor will intensify considering Barbara Gordon falls right into the age bracket of the women he was alleged to have had affairs with.

----------


## Johnny

People obviously aren't perfect, Joss can cheat on his wife all he wants(I hope the thing about exploiting the young women isn't true), but once he starts preaching about morality and sexism while he's allegedly doing shit like this, he can kiss my ass. I'm tired of celebrities trying to lecture ordinary people and take some moral high ground that they couldn't possibly live up to. Joss is the type of guy who'd lead the pack anytime there's a scandal about misogyny and discrimination against women, well seems like he got a taste of his own medicine. He never gets to call anyone a sexist ever again.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> They are exes for a reason. Lady sounding bitter as hell lol.


Sometimes they have a right to be, though none of us have any idea if she's justified here or not.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> People obviously aren't perfect, Joss can cheat on his wife all he wants(I hope the thing about exploiting the young women isn't true), but once he starts preaching about morality and sexism while he's allegedly doing shit like this, he can kiss my ass. I'm tired of celebrities trying to lecture ordinary people and take some moral high ground that they couldn't possibly live up to. Joss is the type of guy who'd lead the pack anytime there's a scandal about misogyny and discrimination against women, well seems like he got a taste of his own medicine. He never gets to call anyone a sexist ever again.


IF.Its.True.
Bad news for the DCEU anyways because the media don't care for truth. Batgirl attached to "this creep". Its Singer/X-Men all over again.

----------


## Frontier

Well, my opinion of Joss Whedon as an individual has taken a bit of a nosedive (depending on how accurate this all is)...

----------


## Ascended

Who gives a damn what he does in his private life? 

That's not our business. And no, just because we see him give interviews about movies and tv shows doesn't mean we have a right to stick our noses up his ass to see where he's sh*t lately.

Just make good movies. That's the only thing about Whedon I am interested in.

And even if it is true and he slept around behind his wife's back? He's not exactly the only one to ever do something like that.

He can still be a big proponent of feminism and have a few black marks on his marital record. I cheated on many girlfriends before getting married (never cheated on my wife, even when we were just dating) and I still believe in equal treatment, equal pay, empowered women, etc. I can still argue and advocate for those things despite having cheated on women in the past. Making a mistake like that doesn't mean you're not allowed to still believe in basic human decency.

Also, congrats to the entire Wonder Woman cast and crew! I am so very glad the movie is doing so well!

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> Who gives a damn what he does in his private life?


When he started lecturing and moralizing about feminism.

You don't get to use the soapbox while being an utter snake in real life. Or injecting real life politics into company wars and implying DC is less progressive on that front or that WW (a symbol of feminism) is bad just because he preferred Claremont's UXM.

In retrospect, a lot of his bad ideas about WW kind of make sense now.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> When he started lecturing and moralizing about feminism.
> 
> *You don't get to use the soapbox while being an utter snake in real life.* Or injecting real life politics into company wars and implying DC is less progressive on that front or that WW (a symbol of feminism) is bad just because he preferred Claremont's UXM.
> 
> In retrospect, a lot of his bad ideas about WW kind of make sense now.


Probably most people on forums who criticize people about all this crap. Maybe not snakes but human beings who aren't perfect.

----------


## Ascended

> Probably most people on forums who criticize people about all this crap. Maybe not snakes but human beings who aren't perfect.


Agreed.

What's that old saying, let he without sin cast the first stone? We've all done stupid things in life. That doesnt mean we aren't allowed to say the right things anymore.

As I said in my last post, I've made plenty of mistakes. I've cheated on women, Ive broken some hearts, and Ive done some stuff far, far, far worse than that. But I still believe in basic human decency and I can and will still stand up for the rights of people. Or am I no longer allowed to do that anymore because I did some dumb stuff years ago?

Whedon isn't a monster because he cheated on his wife. Maybe that makes him a dickbag, but its not like he's murdering children.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I think the point still stands that if you aren't practicing what you preach, you should stop preaching. 

However, we don't know what really happened.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Probably most people on forums who criticize people about all this crap. Maybe not snakes but human beings who aren't perfect.


Nobody wants to get thrown the hypocrite card at them, though, because in today's day and age (which I guess means since forever), it invalidates whatever you say from here on in. Not that it's necessarily right, of course.

----------


## Ascended

> I think the point still stands that if you aren't practicing what you preach, you should stop preaching. 
> 
> However, we don't know what really happened.


If everyone stopped preaching after making a couple mistakes, no one would be preaching at all. I'd rather have a flawed person arguing for equal rights than a flawed person who says "Well, I screwed up that one time so I'll just shut my mouth now!"

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> If everyone stopped preaching after making a couple mistakes, no one would be preaching at all. I'd rather have a flawed person arguing for equal rights than a flawed person who says "Well, I screwed up that one time so I'll just shut my mouth now!"


Personally I think there are plenty of feminists who haven't engaged in repeated sexist behaviors, or feminists who have acknowledged their past behaviors and are working to prevent that behavior in others. 

Screwing up is fine, but own it, and use your example to help others. If this is true, Joss realized that his private and public personas were totally at odds and just ignored it because it was easy. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Joss is some monster, but if he's going to continue to speak on feminism in pop culture and calling others out on things related to that issue, he should be prepared to address his ex wife's comments in a very real way, beyond PR boilerplate.

----------


## Ascended

You're not entirely wrong, but I dont think Whedon needed to explain his past, private mistakes to speak for equal rights and feminism. I mean, that's just needlessly convoluted; "So I did some dumb stuff back in the day but I really think we shouldn't treat women like objects. Call me crazy!" His private life being his private life and not our business, getting into any mistakes on his part just takes attention from his positive message. Instead of a headline reading "Movie director supports feminism!" we'd get "Movie director hints at terrible past!" And that doesnt help anyone. 

Now that this news is out, yeah he should respond to it. But I think people might be making a bigger deal of this than it is. He cheated on his wife. Its not cool, its not something I am excusing, but his personal demons dont have to get in the way of his positive message. When a recovered alcoholic talks about how you shouldn't be an alcoholic, no one gives him any crap about it. We dont say "Well, you used to be an alcoholic so what do you know about it?" 

I dunno. I work with a lot of famous people through my job and they're just people. Some of them are cool, some of them are assholes. And I dont really care about any of them or their personal lives. What they do behind closed doors is their business. I dont want them asking me questions about what my wife and I did the night before, Im not gonna ask them, yknow?

----------


## batnbreakfast

Change of Topic, pretty please. If I want a depression I can always turn on the news.

----------


## Agent Z

edited post.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Guess someone should have told Whedon that.
> 
> Does him using his position to take advantage of women under his employ while gaslighting his wife make him a monster


Of which there is absolutely no proof, aside from the claims of an ex-wife who claims getting cheated on by your husband gave her PTSD, which we generally reserve for people who've undergone serious trauma like rape and combat.

No one has enough information here to be making any judgements on either side, and nor should we.  

Yes, I am disappointed that Joss Whedon is a fallible human being rather than a complete enlightened being of pure light and wit, but no one is.

----------


## Badou

> When a recovered alcoholic talks about how you shouldn't be an alcoholic, no one gives him any crap about it. We dont say "Well, you used to be an alcoholic so what do you know about it?"


Not sure that analogy works, unless Wheadon is a sex addict or something. One is a person suffering from an addiction and the other is someone who is just a scummy person who cheated on his wife for years behind her back while crafting a public image for himself as being the bastion of female empowerment and appreciation. I get people agree with stances he took in the past and things he has said on the issue, but being someone that truly appreciates and respects women starts with those closest to you, imo. 

To turn this back around into a DCEU discussion I do wonder if this will impact him directing Batgirl any. Probably not unless more things get exposed, but if it is just his wife this will probably blow over eventually. Other things will come up with other people to draw their attention elsewhere.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Change of Topic, pretty please. If I want a depression I can always turn on the news.







> _Gal Gadot  15 hours ago
> Wow! Just heard the news! Thank u to everyone who has shown their support to WW in theaters! What an amazing ride this has been! #grateful_

----------


## Confuzzled

Japanese poster for Justice League:

----------


## Confuzzled

Comic Con trailer recreated with Legos

----------


## Confuzzled

Comic Con trailer recreated in DCAU style

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> You're not entirely wrong, but I dont think Whedon needed to explain his past, private mistakes to speak for equal rights and feminism. I mean, that's just needlessly convoluted; "So I did some dumb stuff back in the day but I really think we shouldn't treat women like objects. Call me crazy!" His private life being his private life and not our business, getting into any mistakes on his part just takes attention from his positive message. Instead of a headline reading "Movie director supports feminism!" we'd get "Movie director hints at terrible past!" And that doesnt help anyone. 
> 
> Now that this news is out, yeah he should respond to it. But I think people might be making a bigger deal of this than it is. He cheated on his wife. Its not cool, its not something I am excusing, but his personal demons dont have to get in the way of his positive message. When a recovered alcoholic talks about how you shouldn't be an alcoholic, no one gives him any crap about it. We dont say "Well, you used to be an alcoholic so what do you know about it?" 
> 
> I dunno. I work with a lot of famous people through my job and they're just people. Some of them are cool, some of them are assholes. And I dont really care about any of them or their personal lives. What they do behind closed doors is their business. I dont want them asking me questions about what my wife and I did the night before, Im not gonna ask them, yknow?


All good points. Don't get me wrong though, I actually don't have that much of an issue with the cheating. Shit happens. What I do take issue with (when put up with his feminist ideals/persona) is him using his leverage as a producer/content creator to facilitate that cheating. 

For the most part though I just want batgirl to be good, and I hope this news doesn't drag the whole thing through the mud once production starts.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Those are pretty good remakes.

----------


## Frontier

WB is apparently developing a Joker solo movie

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> WB is apparently developing a Joker solo movie


Martin Scorcese?! Wow. Maybe he thinks the Joker is a clown and amuses him.  :Wink: 

The first supervillain to have his own comic and maybe now his own movie. He's popular, without a doubt.

----------


## Johnny

Wow... so when is the Killer Moth spin-off coming out?

----------


## Rogue Star

Batgirl, Nightwing, Gotham City Sirens and now the Joker movie?  Wow, Batman is definitely the cash cow and they are milking the hell out of him. I don't mind (as long as I get some Cassandra Cain flavor in the future son)!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> WB is apparently developing a Joker solo movie


Seems like they may be trying to start over with a new look.  




> Martin Scorcese?! Wow. Maybe he thinks the Joker is a clown and amuses him. 
> 
> The first supervillain to have his own comic and maybe now his own movie. He's popular, without a doubt.


I know that I have been critical of his performance in SS.  However, objectively speaking do you think WB would invest in a Joker solo movie with Leto as the title character?  I'm not so sure that they would.  That being said I still think WB needs to focus on quality over quantity right now.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I don't mind (as long as I get some Cassandra Cain flavor in the future!)


That would be awesome... but is it a realistic expectation or just wishful thinking.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I've lost confidence that there is a legitimate plan with the DCEU.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I know that I have been critical of his performance in SS.  However, objectively speaking do you think WB would invest in a Joker solo movie with Leto as the title character?  I'm not so sure that they would.  That being said I still think WB needs to focus on quality over quantity right now.


I honestly have no idea what's being planned, but it probably will make money regardless of whatever is on the screen, IMO.

----------


## Rogue Star

> That would be awesome... but is it a realistic expectation or just wishful thinking.


It's not realistic at all but I'm still hoping!

----------


## Starchild

> Batgirl, Nightwing, Gotham City Sirens and now the Joker movie?  Wow, Batman is definitely the cash cow and they are milking the hell out of him. I don't mind (as long as I get some Cassandra Cain flavor in the future son)!


This is the Batman Extended Universe after all. I've been saying this and i love being right.  Now I'm just waiting for a Penguin movie, a Comissioner Gordon movie and movie for Ace The Bathound. Yeah i think I'm done with this universe.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's not realistic at all but I'm still hoping!


Maybe they'll work in a Batgirl corp. You never know.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's not realistic at all but I'm still hoping!


What is the actual age difference between Cassandra and Barbara?




> This is the Batman Extended Universe after all. I've been saying this and i love being right.  Now I'm just waiting for a Penguin movie, a Comissioner Gordon movie and movie for Ace The Bathound. Yeah i think I'm done with this universe.


You totally forgot the Court of Owls origin story.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

When Marvel unveils "phases" of their world building to a packed theater of fans and streams it online and DC/WB unveils their initial slate of films (that turns out to maybe come to fruition) in a board meeting, we should have seen this coming. This is about maximizing profits first, second and third. They only care about creating a cohesive movie universe as a peripheral goal or even worse, as a marketing ploy. 

...yeah, this Joker movie news has turned me.

----------


## Frontier

At this point I don't think a Robin movie is out-of-the-question.

----------


## Atlanta96

> WB is apparently developing a Joker solo movie


I'd say this was the final nail in the coffin, but the DCEU's coffin has already gotten several final nails. They're just hammering final nails as they please now.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I gotta admit I'm dubious. 

Scorsese? Surely he's got better things to do? I mean don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see him do this, but I have a hard time believing he'd go for it unless he's a huge Batman fan and has had this on his Bucket List for a long time. 

That alone makes this hard to believe. WB making a Joker movie? Sure. Them getting him to direct? I have my doubts.

----------


## Frontier

> I gotta admit I'm dubious. 
> 
> Scorsese? Surely he's got better things to do? I mean don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see him do this, but I have a hard time believing he'd go for it unless he's a huge Batman fan and has had this on his Bucket List for a long time. 
> 
> That alone makes this hard to believe. WB making a Joker movie? Sure. Them getting him to direct? I have my doubts.


I admit, the idea of the director behind one of the most prolific gangster movies directing a film about the Clown Prince of Crime would be extremely surreal  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I gotta admit I'm dubious. 
> 
> Scorsese? Surely he's got better things to do? I mean don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see him do this, but I have a hard time believing he'd go for it unless he's a huge Batman fan and has had this on his Bucket List for a long time. 
> 
> That alone makes this hard to believe. WB making a Joker movie? Sure. Them getting him to direct? I have my doubts.


He's a producer, not director. Focusing on that detail of the story is like focusing on the taste of cyanide after you've ingested it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'd say this was the final nail in the coffin, but the DCEU's coffin has already gotten several final nails. They're just hammering final nails as they please now.


Wonder Woman smashing several glass ceilings and her RT score beg to differ...

----------


## Assam

> WB is apparently developing a Joker solo movie


Kill me. 




> as long as I get some Cassandra Cain flavor in the future son)!


Never gonna happen, but it would obviously have the potential to be the greatest movie ever made. 




> What is the actual age difference between Cassandra and Barbara?


Pre-Flashpoint, Cass went from 17 to 20, while Barbara was in her late 20's/early 30's. 

Nowadays, Cass is 16/17, and FakeBabs is in her early 20's.

----------


## Beantownbrown

> I gotta admit I'm dubious. 
> 
> Scorsese? Surely he's got better things to do? I mean don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see him do this, but I have a hard time believing he'd go for it unless he's a huge Batman fan and has had this on his Bucket List for a long time. 
> 
> That alone makes this hard to believe. WB making a Joker movie? Sure. Them getting him to direct? I have my doubts.


The article brings out that he'll co-produce not direct. Todd Phillips will direct.

----------


## Starchild

> At this point I don't think a Robin movie is out-of-the-question.


As long as it isn't Tim.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if they're going to keep Leto or use Flashpoint as an excuse to reboot Joker with this film?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Who will be the villain in the Alfred solo film that takes place outside of DCEU canon?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Wonder Woman smashing several glass ceilings and her RT score beg to differ...


Yep, they made 1 good movie after 3 disappointments, meaning the avalanche of questionable ideas they have planned are all going to turn out great!

----------


## Badou

A Joker origin movie seems so counter productive. There is so much else that needs set up and developed in the DCU and Joker isn't something that needs so much fleshing out, but I guess this might be an elseworld's story. 




> At this point I don't think a Robin movie is out-of-the-question.


Zero chance of this unless it is Damian. I still think DC/WB is scared and ashamed of the Robin identity because of the poor 90s Batman movies.

----------


## Assam

> As long as it isn't Tim.


They're obviously not gonna use Steph, Dick is confirmed as going to be Nightwing, and Jason is dead. Unless they do a movie set in the past, a Robin movie would have either Tim or Damian. And since Damian's whole appeal comes from him being a kid, and this isn't Kick Ass so like Hell are they going that route, that leaves Tim.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I wonder if they're going to keep Leto or use Flashpoint as an excuse to reboot Joker with this film?


The Flashpoint reboot is definitely an option but I have the feeling Leto is done as Joker either way.  He was very unhappy about how much he was edited out of Suicide Squad.  I also have the feeling that the Batman will be Affleck's last as Batman.  I'd be genuinely shocked if it wasn't.  I think we are slowly moving away from Snyder's vision of the DCEU and more towards Johns' vision.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> He's a producer, not director. Focusing on that detail of the story is like focusing on the taste of cyanide after you've ingested it.





> The article brings out that he'll co-produce not direct. Todd Phillips will direct.


Right you are! Just read the article again. I got a little excitable. 

But yeah, I can see this working, then. I'm not loving the excess use of Bat characters, but there's no denying a Joker movie would do well. So we'll see. 

And I really don't see how this is proof of there being no plan for the DCEU. They're making comic book movies. This is a comic book movie. One that is highly likely to succeed. As a business, WB would be crazy not to move forward on it if they have the chance. 




> Wonder Woman smashing several glass ceilings and her RT score beg to differ...


Yup! The DCEU is just getting it's feet on the ground after a few hiccups. Hardly a harbinger of imminent doom.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yep, they made 1 good movie after 3 disappointments, meaning the avalanche of questionable ideas they have planned are all going to turn out great!


Aquaman's shaping up to be quite awesome. Too soon to tell about any of the other ones. 

However? Wonder Woman reflects the DCEU's new leadership and new creative direction. To all intents and purposes, the other three movies "don't count." It's a do-over. One that's off to a quite successful start, I might add.

----------


## Assam

> Yup! The DCEU is just getting it's feet on the ground after a few hiccups. Hardly a harbinger of imminent doom.


After Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2, did we all start thinking the Marvel movies would be a failure, even though there'd been a really good movie before hand? Not at least in my circles. Don't see why the opposite idea should apply here. 

Out of all the upcoming films, I have zero faith that any of them will be good. I would say I'm looking forward to Wonder Woman 2, but I recently found out that Johns is helping to write the script, and that makes me very, very worried.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yep, they made 1 good movie after 3 disappointments, meaning the avalanche of questionable ideas they have planned are all going to turn out great!


How questionable all their ideas are depends on who you ask. 

Fact is this perceived pattern of the DCEU's failures was broken with WW, which succeeded with a premise the MCU wasn't daring to go even after like 14 incredibly successful movies ("A female lead superhero film? No thank you, let's have another white male played by some dude named Chris."). Any comments that say this thing is totally doomed for certain are going to seem ridiculous from here on out no matter what. The sky is no longer falling for certain, time to chill out and accept these things as they come.




> After Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2, did we all start thinking the Marvel movies would be a failure, even though there'd been a really good movie before hand? Not at least in my circles. Don't see why the opposite idea should apply here. 
> 
> Out of all the upcoming films, I have zero faith that any of them will be good. I would say I'm looking forward to Wonder Woman 2, but I recently found out that Johns is helping to write the script, and that makes me very, very worried.


Don't really see why it can't

Johns helped write the script for the first movie. Seems to have turned out ok...

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Aquaman's shaping up to be quite awesome. Too soon to tell about any of the other ones. 
> 
> However? Wonder Woman reflects the DCEU's new leadership and new creative direction. To all intents and purposes, the other three movies "don't count." It's a do-over. One that's off to a quite successful start, I might add.


Kinda skipped over the minor film known as Justice League, didn't ya?

----------


## Frontier

> After Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2, did we all start thinking the Marvel movies would be a failure, even though there'd been a really good movie before hand? Not at least in my circles. Don't see why the opposite idea should apply here.


No, but I actually enjoyed those movies  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Kinda skipped over the minor film known as Justice League, didn't ya?


The dual vision of JL makes me think skeptical that it will be great.  I do think it will/can be good.  Hopefully it can effectively set a new tone for the DCEU going forward.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> After Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2, did we all start thinking the Marvel movies would be a failure, even though there'd been a really good movie before hand? Not at least in my circles. Don't see why the opposite idea should apply here.


Exactly. Contrary to what some would have you believe, the MCU did not descend from the Heavens, wreathed in a nimbus of light and accompanied by a thousand singing angels, proclaiming its holiness. Mistakes were made. Not-so-great decisions took place. They didn't give up. They just figured out what they did wrong, adjusted, and figured out what worked and what didn't. So the DCEU has had a slightly longer learning curve? Big deal! 




> Out of all the upcoming films, I have zero faith that any of them will be good. I would say I'm looking forward to Wonder Woman 2, but I recently found out that Johns is helping to write the script, and that makes me very, very worried.


Aquaman is looking awesome and its director hasn't made a bad or even lackluster movie yet. 

And I'm not sure why Johns' involvement would worry you? The guy is one of the driving forces behind this Wonder-Renaissance. Even in the New 52, he realized he was making mistakes with her and course-corrected admirably. He was at least somewhat involved in making Wonder Woman 1 the success that it was and he and Patty Jenkins apparently have a pretty strong working relationship. 

I've seen very little from Johns that gives me any cause for alarm where Diana is concerned.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Kinda skipped over the minor film known as Justice League, didn't ya?


Not really. It's not out yet. Too soon to make a judgment on it. 

Even if it doesn't do as well as it should, that will just be the final piece of evidence that it's Snyder's vision for the DCEU that is the problem. Since they're already moving away from that vision, a less-than-successful Justice League film would do minimal harm. 

And that's all assuming that the movie WILL do poorly. I, for one, am pretty sure I'm going to like it, if nothing else.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

https://heroichollywood.com/joker-su...quad-2-sirens/

----------


## Atlanta96

> How questionable all their ideas are depends on who you ask. 
> 
> Fact is this perceived pattern of the DCEU's failures was broken with WW, which succeeded with a premise the MCU wasn't daring to go even after like 14 incredibly successful movies ("A female lead superhero film? No thank you, let's have another white male played by some dude named Chris."). Any comments that say this thing is totally doomed for certain are going to seem ridiculous from here on out no matter what. The sky is no longer falling for certain, time to chill out and accept these things as they come.


And, It's not at all ridiculous to imply that a single film, set 100 years apart from the rest of these films, with a lead and director that none of these other films have, has singlehandedly saved the DCEU? Sounds like you just don't want to hear criticism.

----------


## Frontier

> https://heroichollywood.com/joker-su...quad-2-sirens/


I really do not need to see more Jared Leto in the DCEU  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Frankly I don't think his role in these movies is going to expand beyond being Harley's criminal lover given the films he's confirmed for.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> A Joker origin movie seems so counter productive. There is so much else that needs set up and developed in the DCU and Joker isn't something that needs so much fleshing out, but I guess this might be an elseworld's story. 
> 
> 
> 
> Zero chance of this unless it is Damian. I still think DC/WB is scared and ashamed of the Robin identity because of the poor 90s Batman movies.


I just want a Batman movie where Damian gets to be as violent and awesome as X-23 was in Logan. If that means R-rated, give it to me.

----------


## Assam

> Exactly. Contrary to what some would have you believe, the MCU did not descend from the Heavens, wreathed in a nimbus of light and accompanied by a thousand singing angels, proclaiming its holiness. Mistakes were made. Not-so-great decisions took place. They didn't give up. They just figured out what they did wrong, adjusted, and figured out what worked and what didn't. So the DCEU has had a slightly longer learning curve? Big deal!


Not the point I was making. Marvel started with a great movie, but we didn't start losing hope after two bad films. DC started with three horrendous films (to varying degrees of course) and then made one good movie. That isn't enough to sway my opinion based on what's come before, and I still believe that future projects will only be marginally better than the likes of Man of Steel and Suicide Squad. (I don't see them making anything as bad as BvS again) 




> Aquaman is looking awesome


That it does!...for people who don't care about getting an accurate depiction of Aquaman, which is especially bad for me, since, along with Mera, he's the only character appearing in these movies that I'm actually a major fan of. Though that said, I think Amber Heard is gonna make a great Mera, and I will be seeing this film for her. 




> And I'm not sure why Johns' involvement would worry you? The guy is one of the driving forces behind this Wonder-Renaissance. Even in the New 52, he realized he was making mistakes with her and course-corrected admirably. He was at least somewhat involved in making Wonder Woman 1 the success that it was and he and Patty Jenkins apparently have a pretty strong working relationship.


I'm ALWAYS wary when it comes to Johns.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> And, It's not at all ridiculous to imply that a single film, set 100 years apart from the rest of these films, with a lead and director that none of these other films have, has singlehandedly saved the DCEU? Sounds like you just don't want to hear criticism.


Sounds like you just want to be negative.

Gadot was in BvS and in JL in case you missed her. Meanwhile, Aquaman will have a director none of these films have. But it being set in the present is going to magically make it bad?




> That it does!...for people who don't care about getting an accurate depiction of Aquaman, which is especially bad for me, since, along with Mera, he's the only character appearing in these movies that I'm actually a major fan of. Though that said, I think Amber Heard is gonna make a great Mera, and I will be seeing this film for her.


Who says he's not accurate? Mamoa isn't white and isn't blonde. Aside from that, we don't have much to go on except for some out of context stern looks. 




> I'm ALWAYS wary when it comes to Johns.


The combination of him and Jenkins produced the first critical success of the DCEU (and the first one he's involved in, which bodes well for the rest of these), along with the first incredibly successful female lead superhero film. As far as WW is concerned, I don't think there is much to be wary about.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Not everything works but some things can surprise you.  I enjoyed both seasons of Daredevil.  Luke Cage was awful, Iron Fist was a mess, and Jessica Jones was boring for the first four episodes.  However, Defenders was pretty damn fantastic despite the fact that I found Luke Cage and Iron Fist almost unwatchable.

----------


## Assam

> Not everything works but some things can surprise you.  I enjoyed both seasons of Daredevil.  Luke Cage was awful, Iron Fist was a mess, and Jessica Jones was boring for the first four episodes.  However, Defenders was pretty damn fantastic despite the fact that I found Luke Cage and Iron Fist almost unwatchable.


Well, we certainly have different tastes in Marvel shows! I thought Luke Cage was the best show, with Jessica Jones coming in right behind it. Daredevil, both seasons, bored the crap out of me, and Defenders was just OK, with its major problem being not enough focus on the most interesting characters (Luke and Jessica). I also dug how Luke and Danny were portrayed personally. (As a duo I mean. This version of Danny still sucks)

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I really do not need to see more Jared Leto in the DCEU .
> 
> Frankly I don't think his role in these movies is going to expand beyond being Harley's criminal lover given the films he's confirmed for.


I'm just the opposite...Leto is my favorite live-action version. I need more Leto in my DCEU :P 

I'm ecststic about the news he's returning, but I'm trying to withhold excitement until I see him confirm it himself. As for the Joker origin thing, I don't think WB would really want to make competing versions of their own films, would they? Having 2 Joker's on screen just seems like a recipie for disaster. I bet this film changes form at some point and becomes a Joker movie, perhaps with Leto, but no definite origin. It would be cool to see the latter half be about his time in Arkham with Harleen, though...

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I really do not need to see more Jared Leto in the DCEU .
> 
> Frankly I don't think his role in these movies is going to expand beyond being Harley's criminal lover given the films he's confirmed for.


As I think Snyder's name being attached to JL will affect its box office... I also suspect the same will be true of Ayer's attachment to other DC movies.  I think the real DCEU will be seen after JL and hopefully JL will be good and do well.  Snyder fans may not like it, but I do think that WB is smart to distance the rest of the DCEU from Snyder's name.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Not everything works but some things can surprise you.  I enjoyed both seasons of Daredevil.  Luke Cage was awful, Iron Fist was a mess, and Jessica Jones was boring for the first four episodes.  However, Defenders was pretty damn fantastic despite the fact that I found Luke Cage and Iron Fist almost unwatchable.


I wouldn't say Luke Cage was awful, it had a good stretch of 3-4 episodes where everything was good, but wow, it was corny as fuck lol. I'm a huge hip hop head so I liked the soundtrack, but having a random Method Man cameo made me roll my eyes. Very self indulgent series.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Aquaman is looking awesome and its director hasn't made a bad or even lackluster movie yet.


I'm not saying that I have any concern that Aquaman will be bad, but what exactly have we seen at all, let alone to make us think it "is looking awesome?" Also, David Ayer never made a bad or lackluster film before SS either.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I, for one, am pretty sure I'm going to like it, if nothing else.


I think everyone on this message board knows you are going to like it. No matter what.

----------


## Rogue Star

> *I'm just the opposite...Leto is my favorite live-action version. I need more Leto in my DCEU :P* 
> 
> I'm ecststic about the news he's returning, but I'm trying to withhold excitement until I see him confirm it himself. As for the Joker origin thing, I don't think WB would really want to make competing versions of their own films, would they? Having 2 Joker's on screen just seems like a recipie for disaster. I bet this film changes form at some point and becomes a Joker movie, perhaps with Leto, but no definite origin. It would be cool to see the latter half be about his time in Arkham with Harleen, though...


I can deal with you loving Man of Steel. Sure. I get why some people like it... but this.... *THIS*... is too much! You sir, are dead to me.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I'm not saying that I have any concern that Aquaman will be bad, but what exactly have we seen at all, let alone to make us think it "is looking awesome?" Also, David Ayer never made a bad or lackluster film before SS either.


I have faith in Aquaman because I have faith in Wan to direct and enjoyable movie.  It does seem to me that the newer DCEU is trying to improve on the quality of their directors.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I'm not saying that I have any concern that Aquaman will be bad, but what exactly have we seen at all, let alone to make us think it "is looking awesome?" Also, David Ayer never made a bad or lackluster film before SS either.


I thought Ayer's Street Kings was pretty crappy, but other than that, he's had his fair share of good movies.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I can deal with you loving Man of Steel. Sure. I get why some people like it... but this.... *THIS*... is too much! You sir, are dead to me.


We need a 'like' button here! LMAO

Can't help it man...Leto was casting a spell & I got hooked lol

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I wouldn't say Luke Cage was awful, it had a good stretch of 3-4 episodes where everything was good, but wow, it was corny as fuck lol. I'm a huge hip hop head so I liked the soundtrack, but having a random Method Man cameo made me roll my eyes. Very self indulgent series.


Haha.  The quality of Defenders was much so higher than the latter three.  Finn Jones was even better as Iron Fist... maybe season 2 will be better with their new showrunner.  However, the new showrunner was also a writer on season 1.  We'll see.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm not saying that I have any concern that Aquaman will be bad, but what exactly have we seen at all, let alone to make us think it "is looking awesome?" Also, David Ayer never made a bad or lackluster film before SS either.


Jason Momoa's portrayal is already being received well by just about anyone who isn't obsessed with Aquaman being portrayed exactly as he was in the comics? James Wan is well-liked and people tend to love his movies? Those set shots we've been seeing look cool? Mera's look in his movie is being praised? James Wan promised the movie is going to be a "fun swashbuckling adventure?" 




> I think everyone on this message board knows you are going to like it. No matter what.


It IS quite possible for one of these movies to disappoint me, you know? I will never dispute anyone who argues about how bad Suicide Squad was from a technical standpoint. My only defense of Suicide Squad pretty much boils down to "Well, at least it was a FUN train wreck!" 

If JL is bad, I'll call it bad.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Haha.  The quality of Defenders was much so higher than the latter three.  Finn Jones was even better as Iron Fist... maybe season 2 will be better with their new showrunner.  However, the new showrunner was also a writer on season 1.  We'll see.


I can't even bring myself to watch Immortal Iron Fist. He was so whiny in Defenders, so I just read Fraction's run to get a feel for the character. Defenders took a while to get started, but I actually liked how the characters were brought together. The lesser amount of episodes helped cut out the fluff too. I think it's cool but nothing to sing to the heavens about. Just a rag tag group, fighting an evil org, and trying to insert some quippish dialogue at strange moments at times.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Jason Momoa's portrayal is already being received well by just about anyone who isn't obsessed with Aquaman being portrayed exactly as he was in the comics? James Wan is well-liked and people tend to love his movies? Those set shots we've been seeing look cool? Mera's look in his movie is being praised? James Wan promised the movie is going to be a "fun swashbuckling adventure?" 
> 
> 
> 
> It IS quite possible for one of these movies to disappoint me, you know? I will never dispute anyone who argues about how bad Suicide Squad was from a technical standpoint. My only defense of Suicide Squad pretty much boils down to "Well, at least it was a FUN train wreck!" 
> 
> If JL is bad, I'll call it bad.


Good and fair points on Aquaman. I'm actually optimistic on that one too. Just wasn't sure what you were using as a backbone for "looking awesome." 

I'll hold you to it on JL.

----------


## Badou

> It IS quite possible for one of these movies to disappoint me, you know? I will never dispute anyone who argues about how bad Suicide Squad was from a technical standpoint. My only defense of Suicide Squad pretty much boils down to "Well, at least it was a FUN train wreck!" 
> 
> If JL is bad, I'll call it bad.


Is it possible? I've never seen you say one negative thing about the DCEU, which makes taking your opinions difficult. Since I don't think you can approach the movies from an objective point of view.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I can't even bring myself to watch Immortal Iron Fist. He was so whiny in Defenders, so I just read Fraction's run to get a feel for the character. Defenders took a while to get started, but I actually liked how the characters were brought together. The lesser amount of episodes helped cut out the fluff too. I think it's cool but nothing to sing to the heavens about. Just a rag tag group, fighting an evil org, and trying to insert some quippish dialogue at strange moments at times.


Confession. I haven't seen any of the Marvel Netflix shows yet.  = 3=

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I can't even bring myself to watch Immortal Iron Fist. He was so whiny in Defenders, so I just read Fraction's run to get a feel for the character. Defenders took a while to get started, but I actually liked how the characters were brought together. The lesser amount of episodes helped cut out the fluff too. I think it's cool but nothing to sing to the heavens about. Just a rag tag group, fighting an evil org, and trying to insert some quippish dialogue at strange moments at times.


He was awful in Iron Fist.  How they were brought together outside of the fight scenes were the best parts about the show.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Confession. I haven't seen any of the Marvel Netflix shows yet.  = 3=


Don't start with Iron Fist or Luke Cage!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

As much as I have enjoyed the Marvel discussion  (and I have), this isn't the right thread for it.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> As much as I have enjoyed the Marvel discussion  (and I have), this isn't the right thread for it.


Then I'll just make my last comment about it by telling @Rogue Star that they should definitely check out Luke Cage and Jessica Jones! (Cass, Jessica, and Doreen are among both of our top favorites. We've clearly got similar taste!  :Smile:  )

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Is it possible? I've never seen you say one negative thing about the DCEU, which makes taking your opinions difficult. Since I don't think you can approach the movies from an objective point of view.


I have my doubts about this but I don't see why bashing a DC enthusiast is warranted. It's not his fault that WB lacks a vision or the courage of their convictions to carry it out. They just keep changing with the wind and some fans will be okay with that because from the optimistic perspective it's still a plus just to see our favorite characters on the screen.

----------


## Bukdiah

> As much as I have enjoyed the Marvel discussion  (and I have), this isn't the right thread for it.


Word, I just get carried away when people mention stuff I've seen. I do that at work all the time lol.

----------


## Frontier

> We need a 'like' button here! LMAO
> 
> Can't help it man...Leto was casting a spell & I got hooked lol


His performance and look completely broke that spell for me  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

A joker origin movie? DCEU is so all over the place.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

"What we do know is that the film will be the first under Warner Bros. new banner that allows for exploration of the DC Universe and canon without every film needing to be considered part of or connected to the "DC Cinematic Universe." This new banner will also allow for the films to use different actors in iconic character roles."

Bet you anything that Comic Con rumor about Superman: Red Son is true.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Does this seriously sound like a recipe for success to anyone?

*"According to Deadline the film, which will be directed and co-produced by The Hangover's Todd Phillips, written by 8 Mile's Scott Silver, and with Martin Scorsese also co-producing, will have a setting more akin to an early-'80s crime film with a dark, gritty tone similar to films like Scorseses Taxi Driver and Raging Bull."*

SOOOO...let's recreate the tone and feel of Taxi Driver and Raging Bull during a rare time in DC films where light and optimistic are the goal, and put the director who made Old School, Road Trip, Starsky and Hutch and the Hangover movies in charge. WTF? It's decisions like these that make me wonder if Alf is in charge at WB.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Then I'll just make my last comment about it by telling @Rogue Star that they should definitely check out Luke Cage and Jessica Jones! (Cass, Jessica, and Doreen are among both of our top favorites. We've clearly got similar taste!  )


One day I will watch them all.  If they had a She-Hulk show I would have been there day one.





> A joker origin movie? DCEU is so all over the place.


Actually they're all over Gotham.  I can't decide if that's a good or a bad thing because I do love Batman and his world so much, but I don't want to see it become like Disney's Star Wars franchise (oh how I wish that would just DIE IN A FIRE!!!).

It seems like we might get at least one Batman related film a year so WB/DC feels like they have some kind of guaranteed money maker to accompany one of the newer and possibly more risky, non-Batman related solo character movies.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Does this seriously sound like a recipe for success to anyone?
> 
> *"According to Deadline the film, which will be directed and co-produced by The Hangover's Todd Phillips, written by 8 Mile's Scott Silver, and with Martin Scorsese also co-producing, will have a setting more akin to an early-'80s crime film with a dark, gritty tone similar to films like Scorsese’s Taxi Driver and Raging Bull."*
> 
> SOOOO...let's recreate the tone and feel of Taxi Driver and Raging Bull during a rare time in DC films where light and optimistic are the goal, and put the director who made Old School, Road Trip, Starsky and Hutch and the Hangover movies in charge. WTF? It's decisions like these that *make me wonder if Alf is in charge at WB*.


*Don't you be bad talking Alf!!!*

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I'm sorry but this Joker film that may or may not set up the multiverse is just horsesh1t. WB, Snyder, Johns, Berg, Whedon...whoever...are just not capable of putting a big picture plan in place. If you were to put the multiverse together you'd have to conceivably create one universe first. Right now, we have a solo Superman and solo Wonder Woman as character films and a terrible Suicide Squad and messy BvS. You're telling me you can find a director for an alternative earth Joker but you can't launch the Flash solo film?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Word, I just get carried away when people mention stuff I've seen. I do that at work all the time lol.


It's not really a problem. I just didn't want it to get to the point the thread is derailed, that's all.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Is it possible? I've never seen you say one negative thing about the DCEU, which makes taking your opinions difficult. Since I don't think you can approach the movies from an objective point of view.


I *just said* that I agree that Suicide Squad was a train wreck from a technical standpoint. I have also come down firmly against Jared Leto's portrayal of the Joker. I liked NOTHING about his performance. If they re-cast him or change him through Flashpoint, I'll be thrilled. 

Heck, want me to go one farther? I recently had to acknowledge something to myself about MOS. While I still say it was a good movie and while I reject the argument that he was wrong to kill Zod under the circumstances provided, I do have to acknowledge that killing Zod was a problem in one other way: it represented a departure from one of the important themes set down in the movie. Jor-El tells Clark about how the House of El is all about the belief that there's goodness in everyone. Then Superman encounters a guy who he is forced to judge as utterly void of goodness and kill him? If Snyder wanted this movie to stay true to it's themes, then he should've either A) had Jor-El say that to Clark and then give Clark another way out of killing Zod, or B) NOT had Jor-El say that line and have Superman kill Zod and discover LATER what kind of hero he's supposed to be. 

Sound objective enough to you? 

I am perfectly capable of being objective. So far, I've just genuinely enjoyed the DCEU thus far. 




> It's not his fault that WB lacks a vision or the courage of their convictions to carry it out. They just keep changing with the wind and some fans will be okay with that because from the optimistic perspective it's still a plus just to see our favorite characters on the screen.


Their vision, or lack of same, has NOTHING to do with my enjoyment of these movies. I've enjoyed the movies. Full-stop. That's all there is to it. I had no problem with their vision. Unfortunately, a lot of other people haven't. It happens. But I'd enjoy the movies just as much even if everyone loved it just as much as the MCU.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Actually they're all over Gotham.  I can't decide if that's a good or a bad thing because I do love Batman and his world so much, but I don't want to see it become like Disney's Star Wars franchise (oh how I wish that would just DIE IN A FIRE!!!).


I obviously love the Bat world myself, but I want everything else, too (by the way, I'm ignoring the Star Wars part of your post   :Wink: ).

----------


## Bukdiah

God damn, the thought of a Joker Origin film just seems so wrong. This really came outta no where for me lol.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Does this seriously sound like a recipe for success to anyone?
> 
> *"According to Deadline the film, which will be directed and co-produced by The Hangover's Todd Phillips, written by 8 Mile's Scott Silver, and with Martin Scorsese also co-producing, will have a setting more akin to an early-'80s crime film with a dark, gritty tone similar to films like Scorsese’s Taxi Driver and Raging Bull."*
> 
> SOOOO...let's recreate the tone and feel of Taxi Driver and Raging Bull during a rare time in DC films where light and optimistic are the goal, and put the director who made Old School, Road Trip, Starsky and Hutch and the Hangover movies in charge. WTF? It's decisions like these that make me wonder if Alf is in charge at WB.


I can't stop laughing right now.  This gets my vote for post of the month!  It is funny that Scorcese being attached wasn't what caught my attention.  It was the director of the Hangover movies!?  For a Joker origin?!  Is Ken Jeong the new Joker!?





> I'm sorry but this Joker film that may or may not set up the multiverse is just horsesh1t. WB, Snyder, Johns, Berg, Whedon...whoever...are just not capable of putting a big picture plan in place. If you were to put the multiverse together you'd have to conceivably create one universe first. Right now, we have a solo Superman and solo Wonder Woman as character films and a terrible Suicide Squad and messy BvS. You're telling me you can find a director for an alternative earth Joker but you can't launch the Flash solo film?


It does seem like they are bit all over the place with all these rumors and announcements.  The fact that they haven't announced the Flash director makes me think that it MAY be Zemeckis.




> I obviously love the Bat world myself, but I want everything else, too (by the way, I'm ignoring the Star Wars part of your post  ).


Exactly set up other parts of the universe first.  Lets not get into Elseworlds before things get started.

----------


## Jokerz79

Personally like Michael Myers the less I know about the Joker's origin the happier I am so this is a pass for me.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Personally like Michael Myers the less I know about the Joker's origin the happier I am so this is a pass for me.


I get that. I mean, unless it's a movie where we're given multiple accounts and left guessing at which is the real one it seems like a bad idea.

----------


## Carabas

> Don't start with Iron Fist or Luke Cage!


Honestly, I think those shows would have been regarded as the best thing ever if they had come out first, before Daredevil and Jessica Jones.
Maybe it is better watching them first.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I can't stop laughing right now.  This gets my vote for post of the month!  It is funny that Scorcese being attached wasn't what caught my attention.  It was the director of the Hangover movies!?  For a Joker origin?!  *Is Ken Jeong the new Joker!?*


lmao  He pops out a car trunk like "SURPRISE MUTHAFUCKAAAS"

----------


## Clark_Kent

Michael Uslan, who produces every Batfilm, posted this on Facebook. A Killing Joke-esque origin movie perhaps? He does share a photoshop of Leto holding the camera...

He also shared a pic of Ledger & Nicholson tho too, so perhaps it's nothing. (cue internet hatred of TKJ here)

IMG_3273.jpg

----------


## Rogue Star

Okay, so this is definitely happening. Can't do Killing Joke without Batman so it's actually another Batman movie.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Okay, so this is definitely happening. Can't do Killing Joke without Batman so it's actually another Batman movie.


If you're Matt Reeves how are you okay with another Batman film being made simultaneously to yours? It's already a challenge given Nolan's films were just wrapped up 5 or 6 years ago.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> If you're Matt Reeves how are you okay with another Batman film being made simultaneously to yours? It's already a challenge given Nolan's films were just wrapped up 5 or 6 years ago.


This almost sounds like Didio's thoughts with the DCyou.  Wasn't that where he said that the comics would make story a priority and not continuity?

----------


## Clark_Kent

I didn't notice there was 1 more pic in the grouping he shared: 

IMG_3274.jpg

It might not mean anything TKJ-related. But he didn't choose a random pic of Leto from SS like he did the others. Plus, he shows the book. So who knows. It could match the "80's grittiness" description though.

----------


## Carabas

> If you're Matt Reeves how are you okay with another Batman film being made simultaneously to yours? It's already a challenge given Nolan's films were just wrapped up 5 or 6 years ago.


And if you're Ben Afleck, how are you going to be in two films at the same time?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> And if you're Ben Afleck, how are you going to be in two films at the same time?


Well, this is essentially DC's else world's film imprint, so it would have a different Batman actor as well. Maybe this is how they are going to do the actor switch-a-roo after Flashpoint?

----------


## Rogue Star

> If you're Matt Reeves how are you okay with another Batman film being made simultaneously to yours? It's already a challenge given Nolan's films were just wrapped up 5 or 6 years ago.


I'm sure they have some way to work around it. I have more faith in these people when they're announcing a ton of Batverse films than I do when they're talking about a Cyborg, Flash, Green Lantern Corps, Lobo or a Legion of Superheroes movie (remember when that was announced?). When they start talking about anything non-Gotham related, that's when I pump the breaks.  It has nothing to do with what I want to see, it's just reflective of my faith in their own confidence and commitment to their plans.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> I have my doubts about this but I don't see why bashing a DC enthusiast is warranted. It's not his fault that WB lacks a vision or the courage of their convictions to carry it out. They just keep changing with the wind and some fans will be okay with that because from the optimistic perspective it's still a plus just to see our favorite characters on the screen.


Do they lack vision, though?  It seems to me that WB/DC is creating an Elseworlds line of films to run alongside the DCEU.  Let Cavill be Superman in MOS 2 while Justin Theroux portrays Superman in Red Son.  Ben Affleck can be Batman in Reeves films while another actor portrays the character in Gotham By Gaslight.

WB has all DC properties under their banner.  Where would Red Son or Gotham by Gaslight fit in the DCEU?  They don't.  Create a new line for those stories.  Seems like a damn good idea.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Do they lack vision, though?  It seems to me that WB/DC is creating an Elseworlds line of films to run alongside the DCEU.  Let Cavill be Superman in MOS 2 while Justin Theroux portrays Superman in Red Son.  Ben Affleck can be Batman in Reeves films while another actor portrays the character in Gotham By Gaslight.
> 
> WB has all DC properties under their banner.  Where would Red Son or Gotham by Gaslight fit in the DCEU?  They don't.  Create a new line for those stories.  Seems like a damn good idea.


On paper it sounds nice. But I would have liked more than just Wonder Woman to have been made well in the DCEU before this is attempted. Basically, make sure you're own has is in order first type thing. That being said, give me Kingdom Come with Jon Hamm as Superman and I'll be good. 

...btw, Justin Theroux is like 5'9".

----------


## Darkseid Is

> On paper it sounds nice. But I would have liked more than just Wonder Woman to have been made well in the DCEU before this is attempted. Basically, make sure you're own has is in order first type thing. That being said, give me Kingdom Come with Jon Hamm as Superman and I'll be good. 
> 
> ...btw, Justin Theroux is like 5'9".


Jeeze. I'm 5'9" At least I'd be an alright Clark Kent  :Big Grin:

----------


## qwerty3w

It's great that WB don't mind their audience getting confused over different versions of the characters anymore. This could also means legacy characters like Wally West Flash or Cass Cain Batgirl may get more visibility outside of comics.

----------


## Soubhagya

This is madness.This is Sparta!!! No this is Warner Bros.
Jokes aside(i like Snyder's films including BvS) spending energies in elseworlds/alternative stories appears to be a bad idea because DCEU itself is not solidified.Tried by marvel it would be good.At some place after or during infinity war multiverse can be established.Then try to tell new stories in different settings.Audiences will not be confused.Marvel took so much care to make audiences understand what is the world they are seeing on screen.For example magic was introduced only in Doctor Strange.Casual audiences would see Iron Man standing with Thor with a magic hammer and would get a  whiplash.

It is interesting that heroes appear as bad as the villains in DCEU. After Bruce's redemption he says 'Men are still good...",Diana turned the back from mankind after a century of horrors.A kid would rather root for Harley Quinn and Co.A casual viewer would rather love Deadshot who has a small kid rather than a Batman who used to brand villains.

Tomorrow say they adapt parts of Killing Joke failed comedian without rest of Killing Joke paralyzing Barbara etc. and it turns out to be awesome(remember hatred to Affleck and Ledger)people would rather root for Joker then Batman.

They should have made Mos 2,Batman and if possible WW with cameos from THE OTHERS before Justice League which they did anyhow with BvS. They made 3 movies between MoS and JL.MoS 2,Batman and WW was a better idea.

Now when they are trying heroic,funny and celebratory and we get a rumor like this.Please DC let this be false.
And Marvel please try something like this.Jane Foster Thor or Miles Morales can be awesome.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think DC or the DCEU is in a place where they can really support Elseworlds movies. That's what they have the animated DTV line for. 

That's just me though.

----------


## Rogue Star

> It's great that WB don't mind their audience getting confused over different versions of the characters anymore. This could also means legacy characters like Wally West Flash or Cass Cain Batgirl may get more visibility outside of comics.


I mentioned Cassie earlier but I know that they'd sooner push Brown before they ever push Cain.  They know that Cass is the only real threat to Babs' popularity, on top of not being... you know... white (that's another strike against her).  As much as I like Barbara (and want to love her) she stands in the way of Cassie Cain's progress.  I hope she's willing to take a bullet for the team (whoops, I shouldna went there!) so other Batgirl's can get some spotlight in the future.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I don't think DC or the DCEU is in a place where they can really support Elseworlds movies. That's what they have the animated DTV line for. 
> 
> That's just me though.


I think most people here would agree with that.  They need to set a strong foundation and slow down with the announcements until their base is established with release dates and die hard directors who will finish the project.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't think DC or the DCEU is in a place where they can really support Elseworlds movies. That's what they have the animated DTV line for. 
> 
> That's just me though.


I agree. The cinematic brand is far from bulletproof at this stage. My hunch is these plans get altered.

----------


## Soubhagya

Pardon me but legacy characters require a legacy.What is the point of having a film on Wally West if there is no film on Barry Allen?Yet.

----------


## Triple J

> Do they lack vision, though?  It seems to me that WB/DC is creating an Elseworlds line of films to run alongside the DCEU.  Let Cavill be Superman in MOS 2 while Justin Theroux portrays Superman in Red Son.  Ben Affleck can be Batman in Reeves films while another actor portrays the character in Gotham By Gaslight.
> 
> WB has all DC properties under their banner.  Where would Red Son or Gotham by Gaslight fit in the DCEU?  They don't.  Create a new line for those stories.  Seems like a damn good idea.


Pretty much. Plus, DC's Elseworlds are among their best stories. So, good adaptations can be great movies.

But, yeah they also need to get things in shape with their main universe. To be fair, we don't really know what's going on. All we have is rumors and other "news" posted by various sites. WB hardly announces things (for the better or worse).

And considering how many sites like to portray DC negatively (since that generates more clicks), no wonder by people think they don't have a plan (they may, we just don't know if they actually do).

----------


## Darkseid Is

I don't know. People who read comics are a lot more thoughtful and intelligent than people who watch Transformers or Fast and Furious and all that stuff. We're supposed to assume these morons are going to understand what makes Superman: Red Son good? That movie is the one that's going to make a billion dollars?

----------


## qwerty3w

> Pardon me but legacy characters require a legacy.What is the point of having a film on Wally West if there is no film on Barry Allen?Yet.


In a non-DCEU movie, Barry could be dead or retired.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I don't know. People who read comics are a lot more thoughtful and intelligent than people who watch Transformers or Fast and Furious and all that stuff. We're supposed to assume these morons are going to understand what makes Superman: Red Son good? That movie is the one that's going to make a billion dollars?


I HATE the Transformers films because I'm a fan of the old cartoon and just can't stand those movies. Fast and Furious are stupid fun and I'd put every superhero film over the last 10 years outside of Fan4Stick above them. But I don't get insulting people who enjoy those films I mean honestly there are those who will say the same about those "silly" comic book and their films.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I HATE the Transformers films because I'm a fan of the old cartoon and just can't stand those movies. Fast and Furious are stupid fun and I'd put every superhero film over the last 10 years outside of Fan4Stick above them. But I don't get insulting people who enjoy those films I mean honestly there are those who will say the same about those "silly" comic book and their films.


I'm drinking and I don't mean to insult anyone. But if you're watching the Fast and Furious movies for any other reason to laugh *at* them (which includes having "stupid fun"), you're a goddamn idiot. Capes and tights have been a lot more intelligent than this popcorn fucking nonsense people are wasting their time with. 

(I'm giggling as I write this because I try not to be a mean person, but I'm so drunk I'm in the honest mood  :Big Grin:  )

----------


## Darkseid Is

And also from seeing your avatar, we both live in Pittsburgh. So what really matters is beating the Browns week one  :Big Grin:

----------


## Soubhagya

> In a non-DCEU movie, Barry could be dead or retired.


I concede my point.Wally West is a good idea.It is sad that they would rather make a film on Joker rather than a new character who deserves a chance.

----------


## Assam

> And also from seeing your avatar, we both live in Pittsburgh. So what really matters is beating the Browns week one


Not to be the most stereotypical nerd possible, but Ewwwww, sports.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Not to be the most stereotypical nerd possible, but Ewwwww, sports.


Now, now. Let's get back to the topic at hand  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

A pair of solid filmmakers want to do a stand-alone movie about one of the most popular and long-lived villains in modern history...and fanboys think that's a bad thing?

This is why Hollywood doesn't listen to you  :Wink:

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I'm drinking and I don't mean to insult anyone. But if you're watching the Fast and Furious movies for any other reason to laugh *at* them (which includes having "stupid fun"), you're a goddamn idiot. Capes and tights have been a lot more intelligent than this popcorn fucking nonsense people are wasting their time with. 
> 
> (I'm giggling as I write this because I try not to be a mean person, but I'm so drunk I'm in the honest mood  )


I remember during the ending of Fast 6.  I couldn't help but think, "How long is this damn runway?  These cars are going 100 mph and they've chasing that plane for over 10 minutes!"  I still enjoy the movies for the simple fun of the fast cars but man... cars on parachutes landing exactly on the one road on the mountain!  Has to make you giggle.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

Not really on board with this alternate Earth Joker origin story film. Why does DC keep announcing all of these villain spin offs? Where's the demand? Are people asking for this? Why does it seem to be taking priority over a Man of Steel sequel or Flash stand alone movie? I like the DCEU and I want them to succeed but announcements make that support more difficult.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Not really on board with this alternate Earth Joker origin story film. Why does DC keep announcing all of these villain spin offs? Where's the demand? Are people asking for this? Why does it seem to be taking priority over a Man of Steel sequel or Flash stand alone movie? I like the DCEU and I want them to succeed but announcements make that support more difficult.


A lot of this shit seems weird as hell to me too. Someone is on heroin or something.

----------


## Powertool

> I don't know. People who read comics are a lot more thoughtful and intelligent than people who watch Transformers or Fast and Furious and all that stuff. We're supposed to assume these morons are going to understand what makes Superman: Red Son good? That movie is the one that's going to make a billion dollars?


Lucky me! Finally somebody who seems to know! Tell me: what makes _Superman: Red Son_ good? I know this is far from the right place, but that's something I've never, NEVER understood.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Lucky me! Finally somebody who seems to know! Tell me: what makes _Superman: Red Son_ good? I know this is far from the right place, but that's something I've never, NEVER understood.


Because Red Son is a good story where Superman tries to save the world by taking over it rather than the farcial Injustice.
But i agree with you it is not a good idea.That story works best as a counterpoint to the heroic Superman who works for the good of world without being above it.Superman as an idea is a farmboy from Kansas who wants to do good and has the best superpowers.He thinks others to be equals and is humble.Sadly the films have not shown this side and Superman appears to  be a distant reluctant God.In a world without(inspiring)Superman Red Son movie is not an idea i can get behind.Maybe a film like this in Christopher Reeves time would have worked when USSR was existing.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Because Red Son is a good story where Superman tries to save the world by taking over it rather than the farcial Injustice.
> But i agree with you it is not a good idea.That story works best as a counterpoint to the heroic Superman who works for the good of world without being above it.Superman as an idea is a farmboy from Kansas who wants to do good and has the best superpowers.He thinks others to be equals and is humble.Sadly the films have not shown this side and Superman appears to  be a distant reluctant God.In a world without(inspiring)Superman Red Son movie is not an idea i can get behind.Maybe a film like this in Christopher Reeves time would have worked when USSR was existing.


Well said.

----------


## Agent Z

> Because Red Son is a good story where Superman tries to save the world by taking over it rather than the farcial Injustice.
> But i agree with you it is not a good idea.That story works best as a counterpoint to the heroic Superman who works for the good of world without being above it.*Superman as an idea is a farmboy from Kansas who wants to do good* and has the best superpowers.*He thinks others to be equals and is humble.Sadly the films have not shown this side and Superman appears to  be a distant reluctant God.*In a world without(inspiring)Superman Red Son movie is not an idea i can get behind.Maybe a film like this in Christopher Reeves time would have worked when USSR was existing.

----------


## Soubhagya

> 


Thank you for sharing this beautiful video. :Smile: You misunderstand me. Cavill 's Superman is every bit as heroic as Reeves.In someways better.His Superman never gave up his powers to settle down with Lois.His is the most human portrayal of Superman.Humans doubt,question,seek guidance.We are hurt when we try to do good but people point fingers upon us.But he goes on and on.He left being Superman for like 10 minutes.That too because he saw that his actions even though selfless and with good intentions cause harm and suffering to others.Sometimes almost directly(capitol bombing).He is haunted by the deaths which were caused due to his actions.He gets advice from his ghost dad/psychological projection.It may appear absurd but is very much an advice of a humble farmer that trying to do good has consequences sometimes even bad.But with Lois he can get a semblance of relief.He is very much the ordinary guy whom i envisage as Superman.Just a guy trying to be good.
He is humble.Working under a jaded overbearing Perry.A crusader of Justice(investigates Bat Vigilante in Ultimate Cut).
I am from India yet i love it when he says at the end of MoS:I am from Kansas.He is human.This is his world.He rejects the bad of Krypton(Zod's intolerance) and accepts love(Lois).He embodies the good of both worlds just as Jor-El dreamed for his son.

The problem is these are obvious in Man of Steel but is somewhat lost in BvS. His scenes are shot as if he thinks himself to be a messiah over others.Remember the scene in flood a crying woman puts her hand in the air and Superman is hovering in the sky like a God looking down on puny beings.The shot is gorgeously composed and the montage of helping people is gorgeous to look at.But the heart appears to be missing.Superman is symbol of hope because as soon as you see that S you know you are safe.Whatever the danger Superman will protect you.He saves you and then gives a smile,a wink,a nod.He speaks to you and removes your fear.He asks if you are alright.Then everything is alright in this world.We maybe weak,small but we matter.

My 2nd favorite moment in MoS is when he saves the soldier falling from helicopter and asks "You Okay".You have very kindly presented this in the posted video.The most this came in BvS was when he saved the girl from fire in Mexico and brings her to her mother smiling(if you watch closely) but his smile changes into a tortured look.He was reminded of the ones killed in Metropolis battle according to the director.What is the point of having the name of Superman in movie and he be a cardboard cutout placed in some far corner of your yard?

There are perhaps two types of fans of Superman those who like him to be serious and those whose who like him to be cheerful.I fall to the later camp.But no fan of Superman can see the moment in Man of Steel when after Smallville fight he comes out from the wreckage and soldiers pointing their guns put them down and the general says,"This man is not our enemy" and not feel a bit teary eyed.I want this.Every fan of Superman wants this.Not a Superman who is forgotten in his own movie.Not a Superman who conquers the world in a misguided attempt to save it(Red Son). 

Where is Man of Steel 2,3?After this DC may try something like Red Son.I want my Superman to be great again.Not just in front of the eyes of his fans but the people in general.Richard Donner's Superman inspired Patty Jenkins.Her film is bringing that same wonder to millions  of children today.Whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow?

----------


## manofsteel1979

I personally wouldn't mind a stand alone Red Son or Joker Origin film, but I'd rather see at least a MOS sequel Superman movie first. I honestly don't need a Superman trilogy. Just do a really good stand alone MOS sequel with Henry, Amy and that cast and then if you want to do a Red Son Supes film as a stand alone later, great. 

As everyone here knows I don't buy the " lol DCEU is failing lol" narrative that it's detractors seem to push with every single news item related to DC comics movie news, but I do think doing these before at least doing another Superman solo is wrongheaded if true. 

Again though, it's all rumor at this point.

----------


## Nite-Wing

As a huge Joker fan I can say an origin story movie for him is a dumb idea
I mean the Killing Joke is nice and all but even that had to break the flashback moments with actual joker moments.
Oh and this will definitely confuse people since it won't be jared leto
WB really needs to stop throwing ideas against the wall. You have good properties despite some critical failures. work with those and make them better.

----------


## Triple J

> Thank you for sharing this beautiful video.You misunderstand me. Cavill 's Superman is every bit as heroic as Reeves.In someways better.His Superman never gave up his powers to settle down with Lois.His is the most human portrayal of Superman.Humans doubt,question,seek guidance.We are hurt when we try to do good but people point fingers upon us.But he goes on and on.He left being Superman for like 10 minutes.That too because he saw that his actions even though selfless and with good intentions cause harm and suffering to others.Sometimes almost directly(capitol bombing).He is haunted by the deaths which were caused due to his actions.He gets advice from his ghost dad/psychological projection.It may appear absurd but is very much an advice of a humble farmer that trying to do good has consequences sometimes even bad.But with Lois he can get a semblance of relief.He is very much the ordinary guy whom i envisage as Superman.Just a guy trying to be good.
> He is humble.Working under a jaded overbearing Perry.A crusader of Justice(investigates Bat Vigilante in Ultimate Cut).
> I am from India yet i love it when he says at the end of MoS:I am from Kansas.He is human.This is his world.He rejects the bad of Krypton(Zod's intolerance) and accepts love(Lois).He embodies the good of both worlds just as Jor-El dreamed for his son.
> 
> The problem is these are obvious in Man of Steel but is somewhat lost in BvS. His scenes are shot as if he thinks himself to be a messiah over others.Remember the scene in flood a crying woman puts her hand in the air and Superman is hovering in the sky like a God looking down on puny beings.The shot is gorgeously composed and the montage of helping people is gorgeous to look at.But the heart appears to be missing.Superman is symbol of hope because as soon as you see that S you know you are safe.Whatever the danger Superman will protect you.He saves you and then gives a smile,a wink,a nod.He speaks to you and removes your fear.He asks if you are alright.Then everything is alright in this world.We maybe weak,small but we matter.
> 
> My 2nd favorite moment in MoS is when he saves the soldier falling from helicopter and asks "You Okay".You have very kindly presented this in the posted video.The most this came in BvS was when he saved the girl from fire in Mexico and brings her to her mother smiling(if you watch closely) but his smile changes into a tortured look.He was reminded of the ones killed in Metropolis battle according to the director.What is the point of having the name of Superman in movie and he be a cardboard cutout placed in some far corner of your yard?
> 
> There are perhaps two types of fans of Superman those who like him to be serious and those whose who like him to be cheerful.I fall to the later camp.But no fan of Superman can see the moment in Man of Steel when after Smallville fight he comes out from the wreckage and soldiers pointing their guns put them down and the general says,"This man is not our enemy" and not feel a bit teary eyed.I want this.Every fan of Superman wants this.Not a Superman who is forgotten in his own movie.Not a Superman who conquers the world in a misguided attempt to save it(Red Son). 
> ...


I get what you are saying. But, the way I see it (and understood it) is that MOS is very much a film from Kal's perspective, whereas in BvS he is treated as an entity. His perspective is only shown in a couple of scenes, other than that, we view him from the perspective of the world (for from Bruce's perspective).

I am not saying that's entirely a bad thing (after all, the film was meant to explore the ramifications of MOS, Superman's existence and the world coming to terms with it).

As for Red Son, well I disagree that it was a misguided attempt..someone like Superman could easily unite our species (which I think is very much needed. We waste so much time and resourcing fighting each other because of some tiny differences). But, that's an entirely different discussion.

----------


## Bukdiah

> A pair of solid filmmakers want to do a stand-alone movie about one of the most popular and long-lived villains in modern history...and fanboys think that's a bad thing?
> 
> This is why Hollywood doesn't listen to you


The hell? Joker never had an origin so why make one for him? A lot of people wanna preserve that and how he was always just there. I guess you're the people Hollywood panders to lol.

Todd Phillips from Hangover fame screens solid to you? I understand the concerns. I love Scorcese and he's a producer for the upcoming Joker movie, but on the flip side, Nolan was Executive producer for BvS and look how that shit turned out.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I personally wouldn't mind a stand alone Red Son or Joker Origin film, but I'd rather see at least a MOS sequel Superman movie first. I honestly don't need a Superman trilogy. Just do a really good stand alone MOS sequel with Henry, Amy and that cast and then if you want to do a Red Son Supes film as a stand alone later, great. 
> 
> As everyone here knows I don't buy the " lol DCEU is failing lol" narrative that it's detractors seem to push with every single news item related to DC comics movie news, but I do think doing these before at least doing another Superman solo is wrongheaded if true. 
> 
> Again though, it's all rumor at this point.


I kneel before manofsteel1979 from Planet Houston and agree.I admit I was a bit disappointed that MoS 2 was not announced in Comic Con.But then they are pretending that Superman is dead.Hard to pretend when you announce a sequel.I think it may be announced after Justice League.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I get what you are saying. But, the way I see it (and understood it) is that MOS is very much a film from Kal's perspective, whereas in BvS he is treated as an entity. His perspective is only shown in a couple of scenes, other than that, we view him from the perspective of the world (for from Bruce's perspective).
> 
> I am not saying that's entirely a bad thing (after all, the film was meant to explore the ramifications of MOS, Superman's existence and the world coming to terms with it).
> 
> As for Red Son, well I disagree that it was a misguided attempt..someone like Superman could easily unite our species (which I think is very much needed. We waste so much time and resourcing fighting each other because of some tiny differences). But, that's an entirely different discussion.



I am just petty that's all.General public seemed to dislike BvS. But Gal Gadot and Ben Affleck got a good response.Everyone said Warehouse scene was awesome,Wonder Woman's entry was awesome.There was no awesome scene for Cavill.

Superman just does not appear cool in this movie.A conflicted Superman was very off putting when i saw it for the first time.I liked it after subsequent viewings when i could understand some of the themes there.

Again i like this as an alternative view on Superman.I like him most when he is confident and decisive.He does appear somewhat incompetent being defeated and almost killed by Batman and finally dies at the hands of Doomsday.

Superman is beaten in the end of Red Son isn't it?So yet another time Superman is defeated.I don't mind a good film where Superman is beaten in the end.After all Joker in some way won at the end of Dark Knight.But then how many times shall i see this?

How is Supes the greatest hero if all he does is lose?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I am just petty that's all.*General public seemed to dislike BvS*. But Gal Gadot and Ben Affleck got a good response.Everyone said Warehouse scene was awesome,Wonder Woman's entry was awesome.There was no awesome scene for Cavill.
> 
> Superman just does not appear cool in this movie.A conflicted Superman was very off putting when i saw it for the first time.I liked it after subsequent viewings when i could understand some of the themes there.
> 
> Again i like this as an alternative view on Superman.I like him most when he is confident and decisive.He does appear somewhat incompetent being defeated and almost killed by Batman and finally dies at the hands of Doomsday.
> 
> Superman is beaten in the end of Red Son isn't it?So yet another time Superman is defeated.I don't mind a good film where Superman is beaten in the end.After all Joker in some way won at the end of Dark Knight.But then how many times shall i see this?
> 
> How is Supes the greatest hero if all he does is lose?



They sure did. To the tune of almost $900 Million Dollars. 

Oh, wait.

----------


## Soubhagya

> They sure did. To the tune of almost $900 Million Dollars. 
> 
> Oh, wait.


Pardon me but i tend to disagree.Sure it earned almost 900 million dollars but that was not expected.A film with Superman and Batman for the first time in history and that too fighting each other was a really intriguing proposition.They are among the most recognizable characters on the planet.Thus fans and an intrigued public came in huge numbers in the opening weekend,as it broke many records for the opening weekend.But it slowed down thereafter.I think it did not have much repeat audiences(I am not talking about fans).Compare that with Wonder Woman which has come out almost two months ago in a crowded summer and by itself earned 800 million dollars and counting.That is without counting Japan where it will be released on 25th of this month.

A standalone movie with Wonder Woman versus a movie with Batman,Superman and Wonder Woman,yet difference is about 70 million dollars.Yes there are a lot who liked BvS but it was not as universally liked as Wonder Woman.

----------


## Confuzzled

An incredible initiative by a photographer where he chose 6 children with different diseases or handicaps and had a professional photoshoot with them posing as the members of the Justice League:






Visit the link below to see the kids' individual character posters and their reactions on receiving them:

http://www.fulltimephotographer.com/...Justice-League

----------


## Clark_Kent

My unsubstantiated opinion, based on nothing, is this: WB/DC does not want to cannibalize their own films with a "Mainline" Universe (DCEU) and a "Secondary" Universe. It doesn't make much sense...everyone loves Affleck & wants him to stay, but what if audiences liked a different guy in the role in a secondary universe better than Affleck in the mainline? I love Leto's take, but I recognize not everyone does...but until something happens, he IS Joker in the Mainline Universe. And like it or not, this interpretation sells a metric shit-ton of merch. But....what if audiences liked the Secondary Universe version more? 

This creates problems, and is one of the things that led to the death of the George Miller 'Justice League: Mortal" project. The writers strike helped put it in the ground, but WB was also worried about putting out a competing Batman to Nolan's version. I don't believe for a second that WB is actually considering a 2-universe approach and I think Deadline has a bad source there. But, the Joker movie is moving ahead. Here's why I think that: 

1. Michael Uslan. He purchased film rights for Batman back in the early 80's, and has been an executive producer on every Bat-related film since Batman '89 (even the animated films). If anyone outside WB knows what's up, it's this guy. I posted his Facebook message yesterday, he says "Scorcese & the Joker". The film is happening. 

2. I don't think it will be a Secondary Universe film, partly for the reasons I list above, but also because of two of the pictures Uslan posted: one was the cover of "The Killing Joke", and one is a photoshop of Leto in the pose from the cover of TKJ. True, he showed pictures of Ledger & Nicholson also, and even a still from the film "The Man Who Laughs". But if he were just showing the "lineage" of live action versions & inspirations, then why not a photo of Leto from Suicide Squad? Why did he choose something related to The Killing Joke? I'll tell you why, and it's #3:

3. Batgirl. Whedon is working on a script soon that is said to take inspiration from the New 52 Batgirl book. What was that book about in the beginning? Barbara putting the suit back on for the first time & dealing with her PTSD from The Killing Joke. Perhaps the Joker movie will come first & tell the tale of how she was crippled. In fact, here's a fun thought:
        Perhaps this is less a true origin, and more of a biography? Scorsese is involved, and he LOVES to do biopics as much as he loves mobsters. With Joker, he gets both. Think of "Goodfellas" , "Wolf of Wall Street", & "The Aviator"...those films all tell the story of a central protagonist throughout the course of many years, and sometimes decades. Perhaps this film will encompass "The Man Who Laughs", "The Killing Joke", "A Death In The Family", and end with him meeting Dr. Quinzel in Arkham? Perhaps it's even the reason for the pictures Uslan posted...we'd see Joker go from rags (like Ledger) to riches (like Nicholson), played by Leto. Scorsese loves this stuff. As for the director, well everybody complained Leto wasn't funny, right? Well directors are capable of doing different genres (see James Wan's Aquaman), and having a guy who does comedy might just help Joker to be funny. 

4. Leto himself. We all know he was displeased with how his role was cut for Suicide Squad, and normally you could recast if the actor wanted to walk. But his image makes a LOT of money. To get him to agree on SS2 & Gotham City Sirens, it's possible WB went to him & said "ok, what if we gave you your own movie?"


Like I said, unsubstantiated & baseless, but these are the things my gut is telling me. Or perhaps I'm just hungry.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Pardon me but i tend to disagree.Sure it earned almost 900 million dollars but that was not expected.A film with Superman and Batman for the first time in history and that too fighting each other was a really intriguing proposition.They are among the most recognizable characters on the planet.Thus fans and an intrigued public came in huge numbers in the opening weekend,as it broke many records for the opening weekend.But it slowed down thereafter.I think it did not have much repeat audiences(I am not talking about fans).Compare that with Wonder Woman which has come out almost two months ago in a crowded summer and by itself earned 800 million dollars and counting.That is without counting Japan where it will be released on 25th of this month.
> 
> A standalone movie with Wonder Woman versus a movie with Batman,Superman and Wonder Woman,yet difference is about 70 million dollars.Yes there are a lot who liked BvS but it was not as universally liked as Wonder Woman.


I didn't say "universally liked", I just disagreed with the statement that the general public disliked it. Two different things.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I kneel before manofsteel1979 from Planet Houston and agree.I admit I was a bit disappointed that MoS 2 was not announced in Comic Con.But then they are pretending that Superman is dead.Hard to pretend when you announce a sequel.I think it may be announced after Justice League.


If they've been trying to keep Superman coming back a secret somebody needs to get fired!

----------


## Soubhagya

> If they've been trying to keep Superman coming back a secret somebody needs to get fired!


They require to get Superman in merchandise.It would be a loss if kids want a Superman toy after the movie and there is none.I am hoping that they have learnt the right lessons from doomsday and not spoil his reveal.
They will always try to make Superman films.He is among the most popular icons of dc.Even after the debacle of Superman 4 they tried to make Superman many times.Since the coming of Geoff Johns whom they are presenting as DC s Kevin Feige the message coming out is they are making films that celebrate their characters.Red Son does not seem to fit into it.It might have been discussed but i don't think they are brave enough to do so and move ahead with it.MoS 2 appears to be a safer choice.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I didn't say "universally liked", I just disagreed with the statement that the general public disliked it. Two different things.


Okay disliked may be wrong.Perhaps mixed response would be appropriate.Underperformed atleast from their point of view hence many changes in top order.It was atleast financially successful.Enough to go ahead in the universe.That they are deliberately communicating a lighter tone also indicates a mixed response.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Here we go again!!!

*MATT REEVES "THE BATMAN" WILL NOT BE A PART OF THE DCEU*

It's becoming obvious they are starting this separate imprint to DC movies to create alternate versions of characters so during Flashpoint they can choose which versions to incorporate into the future DCEU based on fan reaction.

----------


## Spiritualcramp

Holy Continuity Issues!

----------


## Powertool

> Here we go again!!!
> 
> *MATT REEVES "THE BATMAN" WILL NOT BE A PART OF THE DCEU*
> 
> It's becoming obvious they are starting this separate imprint to DC movies to create alternate versions of characters so during Flashpoint they can choose which versions to incorporate into the future DCEU based on fan reaction.


To those who keep track of these things: is Batman-News the website managed by the guy with a pathological, obsessive hatred of the DCEU who'd sell his soul to the devil for any kind of rumour that could negatively impact WB's main endeavour? I know that guy exists, but I keep forgetting which website he's attached to.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Can someone listen to the audio provided? It could just mean in a different continuity but in the same Universe, if that makes sense.

I'm very confused by all this non-Universe stuff and WB would go down a bad path doing this imo.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

It could be that Reeves just means his film is intended to be something standalone, without setting up stuff for future films or relying on previous films, and he just worded his statement poorly. Similar to how Wonder Woman didn't have much in the way of set-up for future DCEU films and could be enjoyed without having a clue what happened in the previous DCEU films.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> It could be that Reeves just means his film is intended to be something standalone, without setting up stuff for future films or relying on previous films, and he just worded his statement poorly. Similar to how Wonder Woman didn't have much in the way of set-up for future DCEU films and could be enjoyed without having a clue what happened in the previous DCEU films.


This would be ideal.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It could be that Reeves just means his film is intended to be something standalone, without setting up stuff for future films or relying on previous films, and he just worded his statement poorly. Similar to how Wonder Woman didn't have much in the way of set-up for future DCEU films and could be enjoyed without having a clue what happened in the previous DCEU films.


This is my thinking.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> To those who keep track of these things: is Batman-News the website managed by the guy with a pathological, obsessive hatred of the DCEU who'd sell his soul to the devil for any kind of rumour that could negatively impact WB's main endeavour? I know that guy exists, but I keep forgetting which website he's attached to.


Yep, that's the guy. I'd take any story  originating from that site with a huge grain of salt.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The hell? Joker never had an origin so why make one for him? A lot of people wanna preserve that and how he was always just there. I guess you're the people Hollywood panders to lol.
> 
> Todd Phillips from Hangover fame screens solid to you? I understand the concerns. I love Scorcese and he's a producer for the upcoming Joker movie, but on the flip side, Nolan was Executive producer for BvS and look how that shit turned out.


War Dogs was pretty good, and he's writing it with the guy who wrote 8 Mile, and The Fighter. 

If they're going for a Taxi Driver tone, then it could work.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> War Dogs was pretty good, and he's writing it with the guy who wrote 8 Mile, and The Fighter. 
> 
> If they're going for a Taxi Driver tone, then it could work.


He did a documentary about GG Allen and there was some dark stuff in pieces of the Hangover sequels I've seen. This could end up being good.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yep, that's the guy. I'd take any story  originating from that site with a huge grain of salt.


No, it's not that guy. That's Jett from Batman-on-film.com. That guy is a giant loser. Batman-News is decent.

----------


## Frontier

I'm almost at a point where I just don't care anymore  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

It's to the point where WB/DC needs to hold an event, ideally right after JL opens, and lays out the plan. Otherwise all of their auxiliary announcements, leaks, and misquotes just lead to bad press in the absence of a firm plan. Honestly, as someone who does it for a living, they really need a solid Communications Firm in their corner to help iron all this out.

----------


## Jokerz79

Now speculation MR's The Batman might not be connected to the DCEU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YtqdcutpUZM

----------


## Styles

> It could be that Reeves just means his film is intended to be something standalone, without setting up stuff for future films or relying on previous films, and he just worded his statement poorly. Similar to how Wonder Woman didn't have much in the way of set-up for future DCEU films and could be enjoyed without having a clue what happened in the previous DCEU films.


I hope that's what he meant.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Here we go again!!!
> 
> *MATT REEVES "THE BATMAN" WILL NOT BE A PART OF THE DCEU*
> 
> It's becoming obvious they are starting this separate imprint to DC movies to create alternate versions of characters so during Flashpoint they can choose which versions to incorporate into the future DCEU based on fan reaction.


Random note, but batman-news has the scariest comment sections lol

----------


## Bukdiah

> Can someone listen to the audio provided? It could just mean in a different continuity but in the same Universe, if that makes sense.
> 
> I'm very confused by all this non-Universe stuff and WB would go down a bad path doing this imo.


God, I just have blurbs

He has 3 Batman movies in mind

Reeves: I have a perspective of Batman I'm excited about and they are excited too (WB?)

...I'm fine not doing Batman...I want to do my version of Batman

He says they are happy with the perspective he's bringing in (uses perspective a lot)

Reeves says its a standalone and it isn't a part of the extended universe.

Time stamp 26:09 he takes about being approached and being told "it's a standalone."

Reeves is thinking of a noir-ish perspective

Side Note: War for the Planet of the Apes was my shit. So much emotional imagery, god damn. They almost Jar Jar Bink's it with a certain character though...lol

----------


## Frontier

> God, I just have blurbs
> 
> He has 3 Batman movies in mind
> 
> Reeves: I have a perspective of Batman I'm excited about and they are excited too (WB?)
> 
> ...I'm fine not doing Batman...I want to do my version of Batman
> 
> He says they are happy with the perspective he's bringing in (uses perspective a lot)
> ...


I think "standalone" is probably the key word here.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I think "standalone" is probably the key word here.


Yeah, it's own thing and not tied into DCEU from what I heard.

----------


## Soubhagya

So many news,leaks,stories.It is giving me a headache to keep track of.
Just my thoughts: DCEU has been trying to play catch up with Marvel.It has been financially lucrative.Four movies have earned upto 3 billion dollars averaging about 750 million per film.Executives are logical people.They run businesses and shared movie universe model has proven to be lucrative.No intelligent person changes his plan after the plan has given its best result(WW).One changes so in times of emergency not in face of success.Most news are leaks or rumors which want page visits or else is miscommunicated.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> God, I just have blurbs
> 
> He has 3 Batman movies in mind
> 
> Reeves: I have a perspective of Batman I'm excited about and they are excited too (WB?)
> 
> ...I'm fine not doing Batman...I want to do my version of Batman
> 
> He says they are happy with the perspective he's bringing in (uses perspective a lot)
> ...


I can't help but think that Reeves may want to go with a younger, different Batman.  I'm going to assume that he wants to have the same Batman in his trilogy.  I feel like these movies could be the start to a new Joker and Batman.   "Bad Ape!"

I seems like they might be on their way to a DCEU similar to the DC animated movies.  Each movie independent of the others.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

https://heroichollywood.com/matt-ree...-knight-focus/

----------


## Frontier

> https://heroichollywood.com/matt-ree...-knight-focus/


Well that's kinda been a thing with Batman movies since the original Burton films (it's why the villains were so iconic)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Bukdiah

> I can't help but think that Reeves may want to go with a younger, different Batman.  I'm going to assume that he wants to have the same Batman in his trilogy.  I feel like these movies could be the start to a new Joker and Batman.   "Bad Ape!"
> 
> I seems like they might be on their way to a DCEU similar to the DC animated movies.  Each movie independent of the others.


For my Chik Fil-A order, I used the name "Caesar" lmao

----------


## Lightning Rider

It's just hard to tell what he means by standalone.

(And yes POTA is amazing)

----------


## Bukdiah

> It's just hard to tell what he means by standalone.
> 
> (And yes POTA is amazing)


I took it to mean that the movie is gonna be it's own thing, not tied to the DCEU. At least, that's how standalone is normally used to describe movies.  Did you check that 26:09 time stamp?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> For my Chik Fil-A order, I used the name "Caesar" lmao


Haha.  Those poor Gorillas always dying for Caesar!

I have to agree that the 2nd and 3rd Planet of the Apes movies were vastly underrated.  I rarely use the word great but I think those were two great movies.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Margot Robbie and Jared Leto are returning for a Harley/Joker movie according to the Hollywood Reporter.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Margot Robbie and Jared Leto are returning for a Harley/Joker movie according to the Hollywood Reporter.


David Ayer no longer directing.

https://heroichollywood.com/crazy-st...y-quinn-movie/

----------


## FlashEarthOne

As I previously suspected... about Affleck

https://heroichollywood.com/batman-a...-period-actor/

Also not surprised... given people's response to his Luthor. 

http://lrmonline.com/news/justice-le...uring-reshoots

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Margot Robbie and Jared Leto are returning for a Harley/Joker movie according to the Hollywood Reporter.


So that's actually happening?
Seems like someone in WB is greenlighting a lot of projects

----------


## Frontier

I don't know what to think of all this  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> So that's actually happening?
> Seems like someone in WB is greenlighting a lot of projects


It is replacing Gotham City Sirens.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I don't know what to think of all this .


It feels like either great reception from JL or nervous reactions... I'm nervous that it is the latter.  It seems to me that they are distancing themselves from the  Snyderverse.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Not really on board with this alternate Earth Joker origin story film. Why does DC keep announcing all of these villain spin offs? Where's the demand? Are people asking for this? Why does it seem to be taking priority over a Man of Steel sequel or Flash stand alone movie? I like the DCEU and I want them to succeed but announcements make that support more difficult.


Warner Bros. seems to be a more creator driven studio while Disney seems to be more project driven.  So when a creator like Whedon or Robbie or Scorsese comes along wanting to do a movie 
like Batgirl or Gotham City Sirens, or Joker's origins, Warner Bros. is more inclined to let them make a pet project even if it doesn't fit into some pre-ordained universe.  Where-as Disney is more
 make the movies as part of a vast universe and just hire someone who can fulfill Disney's vision. So the reason these movies take priority is no one wants to do a retread of Superman with all
the previous baggage of Man of Steel 1 and Batman v Superman when they can start fresh with Batgirl or a Joker origin story. Or with GCS, continue a story with the same players instead of having
to find someone new to do it.

----------


## Frontier

> It feels like either great reception from JL or nervous reactions... I'm nervous that it is the latter.  It seems to me that they are distancing themselves from the  Snyderverse.


It just feels like they're going all over the place  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Badou

I imagine that DC/WB's meeting room discussing potential movies look something like this. 



I've lost track of what all has been announced. It feels like a huge mess with no plan, but they still have no interest in doing a proper Robin movie. It feels like them skipping over all the interesting Robin stories to have an older Batman is no longer an issue given all the other things they are trying to do now, lol.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> It is replacing Gotham City Sirens.


Yeah I get that but out of all the ideas WB has been throwing around a Harley/Joker movie seems so very random.
Its supposed to spin out of whatever happens in suicide squad 2 as well

----------


## Osiris-Rex

delete this post

----------


## Frontier

So, just so I'm caught up: 

- The Batman solo is apparently going to not be set in the DCEU and star a completely different Batman. 

- Gotham City Sirens has become a Joker and Harley Quinn movie. 

- The Joker film will also not be set in the DCEU and star a completely different Joker.

----------


## Bukdiah

Sons of bitches. I was interested in a Gotham City Sirens movie!

----------


## Frontier

> Sons of bitches. I was interested in a Gotham City Sirens movie!


So was I  :Frown: . 

I guess they teased Poison Ivy will be in the Batgirl solo, though who knows when we'll see Catwoman in the DCEU...or the side DCEU, I guess  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

The Justice League reshoots make more sense to me now. The reports of them cutting out "world building moments" in favor of character scenes was only half true. The world that was being built to this point has been deemed to be on a bad trajectory by Johns, and the films outside of the DCEU will be course corrections that will be woven into the DCEU through flashpoint---thus Affleck is out as Batman, Leto will get replaced as Joker, and I'm guessing Eisenberg will be gone too since his scenes in JL have been cut and quite frankly, given the ending to BvS, it made loads of sense to have Luthor in JL. But they are running away from what Snyder created as fast as they can.

----------


## rev516

> Margot Robbie and Jared Leto are returning for a Harley/Joker movie according to the Hollywood Reporter.


My prayers have been answered.

----------


## Frontier

> The Justice League reshoots make more sense to me now. The reports of them cutting out "world building moments" in favor of character scenes was only half true. The world that was being built to this point has been deemed to be on a bad trajectory by Johns, and the films outside of the DCEU will be course corrections that will be woven into the DCEU through flashpoint---thus Affleck is out as Batman, Leto will get replaced as Joker, and I'm guessing Eisenberg will be gone too since his scenes in JL have been cut and quite frankly, given the ending to BvS, it made loads of sense to have Luthor in JL. But they are running away from what Snyder created as fast as they can.


So Flashpoint is essentially going to reboot the DCEU at this rate, aside from Wonder Woman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I guess the status of Miller as Flash and Ray Fisher's Cyborg will be dependent on their _Justice League_ reception. Momoa seems too much of a lock as Aquaman.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So Flashpoint is essentially going to reboot the DCEU at this rate, aside from Wonder Woman .
> 
> I guess the status of Miller as Flash and Ray Fisher's Cyborg will be dependent on their _Justice League_ reception. Momoa seems too much of a lock as Aquaman.


It's not rebooting. It's a classic retcon. Pretty simple. No more murdering Batman who is too old. No more pubescent Lex Luthor. What happens to Superman's timeline is maybe the most intriguing at this point. Probably why they have to wait until after Flashpoint to make another Superman solo film. What a clusterfvck. The studio took way too long to figure out they didn't like what Snyder was building. Even though I think nearly all of Snyder's creative decisions were questionable, it's not his fault it got this messy. WB should have had a larger plan with more check and balances.

----------


## Frontier

> It's not rebooting. It's a classic retcon. Pretty simple. No more murdering Batman who is too old. No more pubescent Lex Luthor. What happens to Superman's timeline is maybe the most intriguing at this point. Probably why they have to wait until after Flashpoint to make another Superman solo film. What a clusterfvck. The studio took way too long to figure out they didn't like what Snyder was building. Even though I think nearly all of Snyder's creative decisions were questionable, it's not his fault it got this messy. WB should have had a larger plan with more check and balances.


I'm not even against some of the projects they're announcing, but the haphazard handling and confusion over the announcements just makes me think this studio is having some serious trouble with it's creative vision and the promotion of their movies.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Just to recap, we've been fed so many lies in the last 8 months and should have believed a lot of reports:

1. Whedon taking over JL was very significant and not just gluing together character moments

2. Affleck, despite his comic con proclamation, was done with the role

3. Snyder removing all his JL and DC stuff from his Twitter profile was a reaction to being demoted.

4. Ayer really has been removed from the DCEU.

5. Casey Affleck, despite the ambiguous line about "I'll keep playing Batman until the studio tells me otherwise" from Ben, really did accidentally blurt out Ben is not going to be Batman.


What am I missing here?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I'm not even against some of the projects they're announcing, but the haphazard handling and confusion over the announcements just makes me think this studio is having some serious trouble with it's creative vision and the promotion of their movies.


Uh, ya think? It's been as messy and rushed as everyone accused it of being. We were just the fools who believed the Wizard behind the curtain.

----------


## Rogue Star

> David Ayer no longer directing.
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/crazy-st...y-quinn-movie/





> As I previously suspected... about Affleck
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/batman-a...-period-actor/
> 
> Also not surprised... given people's response to his Luthor. 
> 
> http://lrmonline.com/news/justice-le...uring-reshoots





> It is replacing Gotham City Sirens.





> I imagine that DC/WB's meeting room discussing potential movies look something like this. 
> 
> 
> 
> I've lost track of what all has been announced. It feels like a huge mess with no plan, but they still have no interest in doing a proper Robin movie. It feels like them skipping over all the interesting Robin stories to have an older Batman is no longer an issue given all the other things they are trying to do now, lol.





> So, just so I'm caught up: 
> 
> - The Batman solo is apparently going to not be set in the DCEU and star a completely different Batman. 
> 
> - Gotham City Sirens has become a Joker and Harley Quinn movie. 
> 
> - The Joker film will also not be set in the DCEU and star a completely different Joker.


...................

confused dog.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Uh, ya think? It's been as messy and rushed as everyone accused it of being. We were just the fools who believed the Wizard behind the curtain.


Well, I try to be an optimist  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Clark_Kent

> My prayers have been answered.


Mine too. Ever since I walked out of the theater after seeing Suicide Squad, I've been saying I wanted a Bonnie & Clyde type movie starring Joker and Harley (these versions, specifically). I really hope this one stays on track. 

For the rest of the rumors, who knows? If they are dead-set on a secondary "Elseworlds" type universe, why not announce it at Comic Con? For my money, if it happens, I see it as akin to Disney's "A Star Wars Story" spinoffs; i.e., stories set in the past during the 20 years Batman has been active, delving further into this universe's history. In that way, a Joker biopic makes sense. As well as any other story they want to tell to flesh out that world during that 20 year period. 

So it'd be "connected", but not necessary to the main DCEU. Like Rogue One filled a gap, but it's not necessary viewing when watching Episodes 1-7 (and soon to be 8 & 9).


Edit: I should add that while I can see value in it, provided my theory is correct, I also admit the timing is poor. These spinoffs could, and should, wait.

----------


## Darkseid Is

So they're pretty much giving up on the Justice League universe?

----------


## byrd156

All this confusion and announcements are making my head spin. Can DC please get their shit together? They need to get out ahead of all these announcements and say what is concrete and what movies are in which universe and so on.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So they're pretty much giving up on the Justice League universe?


No, they are creating a trap door to fix a lot of it. But before they can fix it, they have to simultaneously continue to build what works (solo films: Aquaman, Shazam & Wonder Woman 2), while building the trap door of alternate versions of other characters that haven't worked in the JL universe like Batfleck (only because he's too old and wants out), Luthor (because very few people responded well to Eisenberg), etc. They will then cash in on the trap door through the Flashpoint film---where I'm guessing Barry will screw up the timelines of both universes and they will pull in a new, younger Bruce Wayne, older Luthor, and probably a non-tatted Joker into the main JL universe and the timeline will be redone. Therefore, the Snyderverse will be undone.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> All this confusion and announcements are making my head spin. Can DC please get their shit together? They need to get out ahead of all these announcements and say what is concrete and what movies are in which universe and so on.



No kidding. They need a PR Firm who knows how to do this to take a fat contract and tell a cohesive plan to the public so every click bait article doesn't do more and more damage.

----------


## Rogue Star

I really liked Affleck as Batman.  .___.

----------


## Frontier

> No kidding. They need a PR Firm who knows how to do this to take a fat contract and tell a cohesive plan to the public so every click bait article doesn't do more and more damage.


Yeah, I think DC really needs to start working on their PR right now and get on-top of all this.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> So they're pretty much giving up on the Justice League universe?


I don't think they're giving up on anything, but more like retooling. The past films happened, but we won't reference them much. 

It should also be noted here that the ONLY word we have from WB is Shazam!, Suicide Squad 2, Flashpoint, The Batman, WW 2, Aquaman, Batgirl, and JL: Dark. The rest of this stuff (Joker & Harley, the secondary universe, the origin movie, Affleck out, etc) is all rumor & heresay *right now*. None of this is from WB's mouth.

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah, I think DC really needs to start working on their PR right now and get on-top of all this.


They could say they are rebooting the universe or starting to do Elseworld movies or whatever they are doing. I just want them to keep things straight, is that too much to ask?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> They could say they are rebooting the universe or starting to do Elseworld movies or whatever they are doing. I just want them to keep things straight, is that too much to ask?


I don't think they would want to come out with plans that diverge so greatly from JL this close to the release of the film. They should have been way smarter and just delayed the film after BvS, gotten a new creative lead on the new universe then who could choose the right director instead of continuing down a failing path. That's why we're here today. WB's handcuffs with Deborah Snyder being a major power broker and keeping her husband in the driver's seat of the entire DCEU for too many years.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> No, they are creating a trap door to fix a lot of it. But before they can fix it, they have to simultaneously continue to build what works (solo films: Aquaman, Shazam & Wonder Woman 2), while building the trap door of alternate versions of other characters that haven't worked in the JL universe like Batfleck (only because he's too old and wants out), Luthor (because very few people responded well to Eisenberg), etc. They will then cash in on the trap door through the Flashpoint film---where I'm guessing Barry will screw up the timelines of both universes and they will pull in a new, younger Bruce Wayne, older Luthor, and probably a non-tatted Joker into the main JL universe and the timeline will be redone. Therefore, the Snyderverse will be undone.


This is what we call the curse of DC...

----------


## Rogue Star

Someone needs to make an official statement.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Someone needs to make an official statement.


They're terrible with communications. They need a PR or Communications firm ASAP. They have no ability or seeming desire to keep a lid on matters or keep the story straight. A good Communications firm even helps an organization get their own internal plans together. For example, a good firm would have been alongside them leading up to Comic Con hashing out the announcement details--therefore any holes in the announcement, things left out, or plans for announcements in the coming months would never have felt this haphazard.

----------


## Elmo

> They're terrible with communications. They need a PR or Communications firm ASAP. They have no ability or seeming desire to keep a lid on matters or keep the story straight. A good Communications firm even helps an organization get their own internal plans together. For example, a good firm would have been alongside them leading up to Comic Con hashing out the announcement details--therefore any holes in the announcement, things left out, or plans for announcements in the coming months would never have felt this haphazard.


I'd say they're pretty good with communication. Blogs throwing out new rumors and speculation, constantly trying to smear DC and topple the DCEU doesn't help, but it isn't their fault. Their communication is fine, these sites just need to stop trying to destroy the DCEU

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I'd say they're pretty good with communication. Blogs throwing out new rumors and speculation, constantly trying to smear DC and topple the DCEU doesn't help, but it isn't their fault. Their communication is fine, these sites just need to stop trying to destroy the DCEU


No, you're 100 percent wrong. Their communication is nonexistent. Forget the websites for a second. DC has never officially laid out any plans for the DCEU, which is what leaves it so susceptible to click bait and rumor mongering. Do you really think that initial slate of films was good communication? It was done over the phone during a Warner Bros. Board meeting. That's not how you do announcements of that magnitude. And once you do make an announcement of that magnitude, any deviation from that plan, such as a new "DC Films Imprint that tells stories outside of the DCEU" has to be made with a clear announcement and statement so more rumor mongering doesn't occur. 

Trust me. On this topic you're dealing with a pro. They need help.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> So Flashpoint is essentially going to reboot the DCEU at this rate, aside from Wonder Woman .
> 
> I guess the status of Miller as Flash and Ray Fisher's Cyborg will be dependent on their _Justice League_ reception. Momoa seems too much of a lock as Aquaman.


That is exactly the feeling that I am getting from all this info.  I wonder how Miller will feel if Flashpoint leads to another Barry Allen at the end?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Someone needs to make an official statement.


I think it is because they aren't confident in what is happening with JL... so we won't hear much on the official front.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That is exactly the feeling that I am getting from all this info.  I wonder how Miller will feel if Flashpoint leads to another Barry Allen at the end?


I don't think it's that drastic of a reimagining of the universe. It's a recon, not a reboot. They are creating a trap door to fix a lot of it. But before they can fix it, they have to simultaneously continue to build what works (solo films: Aquaman, Shazam & Wonder Woman 2), while building the trap door of alternate versions of other characters that haven't worked in the JL universe like Batfleck (only because he's too old and wants out), Luthor (because very few people responded well to Eisenberg), etc. They will then cash in on the trap door through the Flashpoint film---where I'm guessing Barry will screw up the timelines of both universes and they will pull in a new, younger Bruce Wayne, older Luthor, and probably a non-tatted Joker into the main JL universe and the timeline will be redone. Therefore, the Snyderverse will be undone.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I think it is because they aren't confident in what is happening with JL... so we won't hear much on the official front.


I do think this means they know Justice League is going to get ripped to sh1t by critics. Guessing Snyder and Terrio told another unsavory, overly complex story that didn't really unpack the "soul" of the characters we all love. WB and Johns are now figuring out how to save the entire universe and the solution is one part "start over," two parts "blend it together."

----------


## rev516

I need Batfleck and LetoJoker to stay in my life as long as possible, IMO. Wb is being impossibly stupid recently.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Looks like David Ayer will still be directing the Gotham City Sirens movie.




> Busy week for news in Gotham City. John Requa & Glenn Ficarra are in talks to write, direct and produce the Suicide Squad spinoff movie that is will have Margot Robbie and Jared Leto reprising their roles, she playing Harley Quinn and he playing her demented boyfriend The Joker. This comes a day after Deadline revealed that Warner Bros/DC have Todd Phillips writing with Scott Silver and producing with Martin Scorsese a new origin story about The Joker, a film that will cast a different actor in the signature villain role. DC has been all over the place with possible movies, and* this one is apparently different from Gotham City Sirens*, a different Harley Quinn spinoff meant to showcase several top female villains from the DC stable *which Suicide Squad director David Ayer is attached to direct*. Robbie is aboard that project as exec producer.


http://deadline.com/2017/08/john-req...ie-1202155227/

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Looks like David Ayer will still be directing the Gotham City Sirens movie.
> 
> 
> 
> http://deadline.com/2017/08/john-req...ie-1202155227/


Good lord. What a mess.

----------


## The Kid

Ok so I've been taking a much needed break from comic books and comic book movies and just casually following news but the last few days have been insane. 

Literally WTF is happening. So much news that I can't even follow it. Mess

----------


## Rogue Star

Welp, I shall return when the dust settles.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Welp, I shall return when the dust settles.


Does dust settle during a nuclear winter?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I do think this means they know Justice League is going to get ripped to sh1t by critics. Guessing Snyder and Terrio told another unsavory, overly complex story that didn't really unpack the "soul" of the characters we all love. WB and Johns are now figuring out how to save the entire universe and the solution is one part "start over," two parts "blend it together."


I don't think they "know" anything.  However, I do think they are not confident in Snyder's vision after BvS and Man of Steel.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Does dust settle during a nuclear winter?


Being from Detroit and watching all my sports teams implode has well prepared me for surviving the wasteland on the other side. I do think a little calmness is in order.

----------


## The Kid

I mean this is just a mess. I get not being as organized as Kevin Feige but this literally looks like they're just throwing darts at a board to see which movies to develop. Then considering the fact there will be multiple universes with different actors and wow.

----------


## Triple J

> Someone needs to make an official statement.


Yeah. It is just reports upon reports. Even if it isn't true, it will result in DC films being portrayed negatively (and will seem like WB doesn't have a plan; the fact is we don't know, since entertainment sites are more than happy to post based on random rumors).

----------


## Serpico Jones

El Mayimbe went on periscope and explained that David Ayer was never going to direct Gotham City Sirens because he's hated at the studio. Apparently he misbehaved on the set of Suicide Squad by acting "like an unprofessional and a cholo" according to Mayimbe. A cholo is slang for a Mexican gang member.

----------


## Pinsir

Why do you people seriously give credence to these paid liars?

----------


## manofsteel1979

> No, it's not that guy. That's Jett from Batman-on-film.com. That guy is a giant loser. Batman-News is decent.


My bad. I get them confused.

----------


## Robotman

> I mean this is just a mess. I get not being as organized as Kevin Feige but this literally looks like they're just throwing darts at a board to see which movies to develop. Then considering the fact there will be multiple universes with different actors and wow.


Agreed. the recent announcements are making the DCEU sound like a giant clusterfuck. It seems like every other week they're announcing a new creative team on a project that has been brought in replace a previous team and then they announce a new planned film only to say "nevermind. But how about another Batman movie?" 
After Joker and Harley were portrayed as an angsty Hot Topic couple in Suicide Squad I gotta say I have zero interest in seeing them star in a movie together.

----------


## Robotman

So word is that Justice League Dark is back to square one. Oy. 

So far WB has announced Batgirl, Nightwing, Batman, Joker origin flick, Gotham City Sirens, Harley and Joker. But no Man of Steel 2.





> They're terrible with communications. They need a PR or Communications firm ASAP. They have no ability or seeming desire to keep a lid on matters or keep the story straight. A good Communications firm even helps an organization get their own internal plans together. For example, a good firm would have been alongside them leading up to Comic Con hashing out the announcement details--therefore any holes in the announcement, things left out, or plans for announcements in the coming months would never have felt this haphazard.


You are correct. They just keep perpetuating the view that they have no idea what the hell theyre doing. I know some people say that there's no such thing as bad press but this right here is bad. 

it seems less like WB is coming up with contingency plans in case Justice League fails but more like they're bracing for a horrible impact. It makes it seem like they know they have a terrible movie on their hands.

----------


## manofsteel1979

Hey guys, remember when the word was that it was a lock that Brian Cranston was Lex Luthor,everyone at the studio loved BvS, and that Wonder Woman was a dumpster fire and a hot mess and WB  was sure going to be a complete failure?Those Rumors turned out to be gospel, right?


Let's all take a deep breath,step back, and remember one thing. 

Aside from Matt Reeves comments, which can easily be taken out of context or interpreted wrong, everything regarding Affleck as Batman or the JL changes are just RUMORS. That's it. 

Is it all possible? Absolutely. It's also possible I will end up hitting the Powerball and marrying Gal Gadot at some point, but it ain't bloody likely.

To treat everything you read on blogs ,most of which seems to spring from 4chan as truth is pointless.

All we know is...

JL is coming out in November.Weadon is reshooting. Elfman on music. Cavill's has a mustache that will have to be CGI'd out.

Matt Reeves is directing a Batman movie that may or may not be connected to the DCEU in some fashion and may or may not star Ben Affleck. Affleck says he's in it. Reeves hasn't said anything either way, but all official indications are, as I type this , is Affleck is in it.

Aquaman,  Shazam, Wonder Woman 2, Batgirl,FLASHPOINT are all in the pipeline, officially announced. Aquaman is filming now.

Marty Scorsese may be producing a Joker standalone film.

They may be making a Red Son adaptation.

There may be a Harley/ Joker movie.

That's it. Everything else is just rumor. Unsupported and without real solid evidence.

I honestly think we all need to calm down and get some perspective here. The sky is not falling.

----------


## qwerty3w

According to the old rumors, what made Wonder Woman a "dumpster fire" was largely its third act, which we know received the most changes for the theatrical release.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I'm optimistic. As long as they stick to Matt Reeves + Batman + Noir (Long Halloween is what made Dark Knight so good) and Chris McKay + Nightwing I'm fine and stay an optimist. I'm curious how GA will wrap their minds around Flashpoint/Recasting. Hey, we'll keep Wonder Gal. For me that's more than enough.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Charlotte Hope for Batgirl
Its just fancasting... are there any actresses in talks yet?

----------


## Confuzzled

> I do think this means they know Justice League is going to get ripped to sh1t by critics. Guessing Snyder and Terrio told another unsavory, overly complex story that didn't really unpack the "soul" of the characters we all love. WB and Johns are now figuring out how to save the entire universe and the solution is one part "start over," two parts "blend it together."


I don't think they know this at all lol. Joker and Harley were always cash cows that WB/DC wanted to milk to the fullest. In fact I was surprised there were no confirmed announcements for Joker until now. I doubt JL being good or bad has any bearing on these new projects being announced. 

After Wonder Woman's breakout success, they would have ensured JL was a good product even if it meant delaying the release if necessary. I don't think they are going to risk losing the hard earned goodwill that WW got for the DCEU just like that.

----------


## Carabas

> Sons of bitches. I was interested in a Gotham City Sirens movie!


It was the only thing they had lined up I was really interested in.
Oh, and the Batfleck movie, which also seems to be cancelled.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It was the only thing they had lined up I was really interested in.
> Oh, and the Batfleck movie, which also seems to be cancelled.


THR is now saying Gotham City Sirens is still planned. This is a separate movie. The trades are printing half-baked info without cross checking. I'm sure same's the case with the Batfleck movie.

As somebody said, WB really needs a proper communications strategy.

----------


## qwerty3w

WB is planning a non-DCEU Superheroes movie line to get more flexibility and put their eggs into more than one baskets, various projects are considered for it, include Matt Reeves' Batman.    

There is nothing chaotic or messy about it.

----------


## Carabas

> There is nothing chaotic or messy about it.


Other than he way all these contradicting reports and rumours are flooding the internet.

----------


## byrd156

> Other than he way all these contradicting reports and rumours are flooding the internet.


Yeah other than the everything confusing and conflicting going on, everything is clear as crystal.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Hey guys, remember when the word was that it was a lock that Brian Cranston was Lex Luthor,everyone at the studio loved BvS, and that Wonder Woman was a dumpster fire and a hot mess and WB  was sure going to be a complete failure?Those Rumors turned out to be gospel, right?
> 
> 
> Let's all take a deep breath,step back, and remember one thing. 
> 
> Aside from Matt Reeves comments, which can easily be taken out of context or interpreted wrong, everything regarding Affleck as Batman or the JL changes are just RUMORS. That's it. 
> 
> Is it all possible? Absolutely. It's also possible I will end up hitting the Powerball and marrying Gal Gadot at some point, but it ain't bloody likely.
> 
> ...


Exactly. People are losing their minds. There's a lot of DC reports, because they bring in the most traffic.

I'm just going to chill in the cut, until JL comes out. No use complaining about stuff we know they won't confirm until JL has/is about release.

----------


## Johnny

So... is Ben out or not?

----------


## qwerty3w

> So... is Ben out or not?


Depend on whether the Batman movie will be in DCEU or Elseworlds. 
Honestly, having to follow what Snyder and Ayer setted up could be quite restrictive for a new director.

----------


## Agent Z

It's weird that the Matt Reeves interview was over a month ago and those comments are only now coming out. Something that needs to be said on that front is that, especially in an interview setting, the terminology he used may not be what we are assuming. He says that WB came to him saying it was going to be a standalone, it's not as though he is stating firmly that the movie is not connected to the other films and he refuses to do so. What makes the most sense to me is that the film will be its own contained thing, when he says "not part of the extended universe" he means it's not going to be an unofficial sequel to Justice League the same way Iron Man 3 was to The Avengers. Truth be told that is the prime source of contention in the MCU between the filmmakers and the studio, Favreau didn't like the Avengers shilling in Iron Man 2, Taylor didn't like the GOTG stinger in The Dark World, Whedon disliked the added baggage setting up Thor 3 and Civil War weighing down AOU.

Worst case scenario is that yes, it will be a completely separate Batman. But none of the news coming out lately have been from WB themselves. It's been scoops reported on by the media. At any studio there is at least three times as many movies "being worked on" as what actually gets produced.

----------


## Soubhagya

> So... is Ben out or not?


Ben is in.He told that he would be an ape soldier for Matt Reeves in Comic Con.There is no need for him to repeat this again.He is ambitious and wants to make good films both as an actor and director.Being Batman allows him freedom to make any film he wants as a director.This year's Live by Night was distributed by Warner Bros.Being Batman is good for him.Warner Bros. would not want a PR nightmare by trying to remove Ben Affleck who is an Academy Award winning director and a talented actor.
Frankly i think he would leave if he becomes too angry because people continue asking him about Batman:how is Batman connected to DCEU,will be Batman for all trilogy,will you direct a Red Hood film and so on.
He is Batman.Just like Bruce Wayne is alter ego of Bats he is a talented and dedicated actor and director.
That guy said that there is nothing cooler than being Batman.
He may end up like Harrison Ford who hated Han Solo because whatever he did people would just ask about Han Solo.I think there is and old interview somewhere where during an interview for Blade Runner somebody asks about Han Solo and his face turns to disgust.

----------


## Soubhagya

> It's weird that the Matt Reeves interview was over a month ago and those comments are only now coming out. Something that needs to be said on that front is that, especially in an interview setting, the terminology he used may not be what we are assuming. He says that WB came to him saying it was going to be a standalone, it's not as though he is stating firmly that the movie is not connected to the other films and he refuses to do so. What makes the most sense to me is that the film will be its own contained thing, when he says "not part of the extended universe" he means it's not going to be an unofficial sequel to Justice League the same way Iron Man 3 was to The Avengers. Truth be told that is the prime source of contention in the MCU between the filmmakers and the studio, Favreau didn't like the Avengers shilling in Iron Man 2, Taylor didn't like the GOTG stinger in The Dark World, Whedon disliked the added baggage setting up Thor 3 and Civil War weighing down AOU.
> 
> Worst case scenario is that yes, it will be a completely separate Batman. But none of the news coming out lately have been from WB themselves. It's been scoops reported on by the media. At *any studio there is at least three times as many movies "being worked on" as what actually gets produced*.


Words in bold is the thing we shall think about.There may be many ideas but one can make only a few films at a time.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

These last few days have been hilarious. xD. Personally ain't bothered by any of it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> These last few days have been hilarious. xD. *Personally ain't bothered by any of it.*


The wise approach. Especially considering none of the projects being discussed may see the light of day in the next 3-4 years.

----------


## Bukdiah

> UPDATE: Deadline previously reported that the Joker and Harley Quinn film was Gotham City Sirens  meaning David Ayer was no longer set to direct the project that was to feature Robbies Harley Quinn alongside Poison Ivy and Catwoman, however, the trade has now updated their story, reporting that the Joker and Harley Quinn film and Gotham City Sirens are two separate projects and that Ayer is still attached to direct the latter.


https://heroichollywood.com/crazy-st...y-quinn-movie/


Head spinning but happy GCS is still a go for now! Until the next day of course. DC, please get your poop together.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Being from Detroit and watching all my sports teams implode has well prepared me for surviving the wasteland on the other side. I do think a little calmness is in order.


Man, I had to go to downtown Detroit for a week for some work training before...never again lmao

----------


## Confuzzled

I have a feeling Matt Reeves doesn't want to use Leto's Joker in his Batman film and the Scorcese produced one doesn't want him either but WB wants to keep him around. So they planned this additional project for him.

----------


## Bukdiah

> It's weird that the Matt Reeves interview was over a month ago and those comments are only now coming out. Something that needs to be said on that front is that, especially in an interview setting, the terminology he used may not be what we are assuming.* He says that WB came to him saying it was going to be a standalone, it's not as though he is stating firmly that the movie is not connected to the other films* and he refuses to do so. What makes the most sense to me is that the film will be its own contained thing, when he says "not part of the extended universe" he means it's not going to be an unofficial sequel to Justice League the same way Iron Man 3 was to The Avengers. Truth be told that is the prime source of contention in the MCU between the filmmakers and the studio, Favreau didn't like the Avengers shilling in Iron Man 2, Taylor didn't like the GOTG stinger in The Dark World, Whedon disliked the added baggage setting up Thor 3 and Civil War weighing down AOU.
> 
> Worst case scenario is that yes, it will be a completely separate Batman. But none of the news coming out lately have been from WB themselves. It's been scoops reported on by the media. At any studio there is at least three times as many movies "being worked on" as what actually gets produced.


I don't know if I'm losing my grasp on the English language, but did you check out the 26:00 time stamp on here http://batman-news.com/2017/08/23/ma...nded-universe/? 

He literally says, WB told him the movie was gonna be standalone and "this isn't part of the extended universe." How can you interpret that as the movie can still be connected to the other films in the extended universe? I don't understand.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't know if I'm losing my grasp on the English language, but did you check out the 26:00 time stamp on here http://batman-news.com/2017/08/23/ma...nded-universe/? 
> 
> He literally says, WB told him the movie was gonna be standalone and "this isn't part of the extended universe." How can you interpret that as the movie can still be connected to the other films in the extended universe? I don't understand.


It could be Reeves not explaining it properly. Hugh Jackman similarly said that _Logan_ was in an alternate universe from the rest of the X-Men films simply because it had little to no connection to the rest of the universe and characters. The director then had to confirm that the film was set in the same universe.

I think it's a similar case with Reeves' Batman where WB must have told him not to worry about making references or setting up anything else in the interconnected universe and just to focus on a self-contained Batman movie. I think that's probably what he meant to say. I could be wrong. We'll see.

----------


## Bukdiah

> It could be Reeves not explaining it properly. Hugh Jackman similarly said that _Logan_ was in an alternate universe from the rest of the X-Men films simply because it had little to no connection to the rest of the universe and characters. The director then had to confirm that the film was set in the same universe.
> 
> I think it's a similar case with Reeves' Batman where WB must have told him not to worry about making references or setting up anything else in the interconnected universe and just to focus on a self-contained Batman movie. I think that's probably what he meant to say. I could be wrong. We'll see.


Oh my goodness, that makes a lot of sense. Now I get why people are saying that lol. I didn't know about that Jackman and Logan bit.

----------


## Frontier

> I have a feeling Matt Reeves doesn't want to use Leto's Joker in his Batman film and the Scorcese produced one doesn't want him either but WB wants to keep him around. So they planned this additional project for him.


I don't blame them  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Carabas

> So... is Ben out or not?


At this point he may not even know for sure himself.

----------


## joybeans

> It could be Reeves not explaining it properly. Hugh Jackman similarly said that _Logan_ was in an alternate universe from the rest of the X-Men films simply because it had little to no connection to the rest of the universe and characters. The director then had to confirm that the film was set in the same universe.
> 
> I think it's a similar case with Reeves' Batman where WB must have told him not to worry about making references or setting up anything else in the interconnected universe and just to focus on a self-contained Batman movie. I think that's probably what he meant to say. I could be wrong. We'll see.


That makes the most sense, really. If it was completely disconnected from the DCEU, I can't see WB keeping the same cast around. It'll just be a Batman movie with no Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, etc. _Maybe_ the Batfamily if they fit within the story.

----------


## joybeans

Also, Reeves just confirmed it himself

https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...84577802678272

----------


## Nite-Wing

Fake movie news strikes again

----------


## byrd156

> Fake movie news strikes again


It's not fake news, its unclear quotes and haphazard reports that aren't being announced by the studios so the plans aren't clear.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Also, Reeves just confirmed it himself
> 
> https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...84577802678272


He really flubbed up in that interview then lol. I tweeted at him about it. Maybe he'll respond.

----------


## Frontier

> Also, Reeves just confirmed it himself
> 
> https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...84577802678272


Well, okay then  :Wink: .

----------


## Beantownbrown

More from Reeves

----------


## Lightning Rider

> More from Reeves


Thank God. 

Why do I still get alarmed by all these rumors lol awful success rate

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Never believed any of them for a second!

----------


## Johnny

That all sounds really nice, but is Ben still going to be Reeves' Batman?

By the way anytime any of those rumors start, Geoff Johns and co. should be quick enough to shut them down. The DCEU doesn't need anymore bad publicity at this point.

----------


## Carabas

> That all sounds really nice, but is Ben still going to be Reeves' Batman?


At this point I'll believe there is going to be a Batman movie at all when I am buying a ticket.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Thank God. 
> 
> Why do I still get alarmed by all these rumors lol awful success rate


Man has a round about way of explaining himself, but good thing he did lmao. He could've just said this is a one character centric story like WW or MOS and would've been OK. As soon as he mentioned it not being in the extended universe, all hell broke loose. Goes to show the power of word choice.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> More from Reeves


Exactly what I said yesterday (whistle). Great news!

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Exactly what I said yesterday (whistle). Great news!


Let's all take a shot tonight!!! _Darkseid Is_ buying!

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

The good ol' Mark Hughes clarifies on the past days news: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#355a14837370

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Just to recap, we've been fed so many lies in the last 8 months and should have believed a lot of reports:
> 
> 1. Whedon taking over JL was very significant and not just gluing together character moments
> 
> 2. Affleck, despite his comic con proclamation, was done with the role
> 
> 3. Snyder removing all his JL and DC stuff from his Twitter profile was a reaction to being demoted.
> 
> 4. Ayer really has been removed from the DCEU.
> ...


To be fair, none of those rumors have as of now been disproven. 




> Yeah, I think DC really needs to start working on their PR right now and get on-top of all this.


It's worth remembering that the announcements have all been on very early stages of production. WB might be using them as a tactic, to check on the general buzz for projects before they move forward with them.

----------


## Bukdiah

> *To be fair, none of those rumors have as of now been disproven.* 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worth remembering that the announcements have all been on very early stages of production. WB might be using them as a tactic, to check on the general buzz for projects before they move forward with them.


I always thought the burden of proof fell upon those that made the statement, right? Anyway, we found out that Ayer is still around and supposed to be doing the Gotham City Sirens movie. I can't comment on the rest though.

----------


## Styles

James Gunn and Geoff Johns tweets lol

----------


## Darkseid Is

> James Gunn and Geoff Johns tweets lol


I thought of James Gunn after reading Reeves' tweet. Guardians 2 could be my favorite of the Marvel Universe movies. Probably because he wanted nothing to do with the other movies in the universe. I like them connecting and stuff, it's fun, but I don't thing every single movie has to connect. Guardians 2 was so refreshing. 

There would be nothing better than just a great Batman movie to me. I really liked Spider-man Homecoming but I kind of felt it was too much into that universe instead of being a Spider-man movie.

----------


## Pinsir

Well all those websites who based that claimed to have inside sources that Ben Affleck was leaving because the Batman films were going to be stand alone are now demonstrable liars. It was obvious to anyone who has a working mind that the director was implying the films would be self contained. I say all links directing to these fake news sites be stricken from the CBR and all attempts to post such material are blocked with the message, "Please refrain from posting links to known rumour mongers, cheats, liars and all around disinfo agents."

----------


## Rogue Star

> I thought of James Gunn after reading Reeves' tweet. Guardians 2 could be my favorite of the Marvel Universe movies. Probably because he wanted nothing to do with the other movies in the universe. I like them connecting and stuff, it's fun, but I don't thing every single movie has to connect. Guardians 2 was so refreshing. 
> 
> There would be nothing better than just a great Batman movie to me. I really liked Spider-man Homecoming but I kind of felt it was too much into that universe instead of being a Spider-man movie.


Guardians 2 is my #1B MCU movie. Winter Soldier is #1A.  People were so hell bent on venge-hating Guardians that they missed a heck of a touching story about family.

Edit: and I'm back now that the dust has settled after last night's storm.  :P

----------


## Bukdiah

> Well all those websites who based that claimed to have inside sources that Ben Affleck was leaving because the Batman films were going to be stand alone are now demonstrable liars. It was obvious to anyone who has a working mind that the director was implying the films would be self contained. I say all links directing to these fake news sites be stricken from the CBR and all attempts to post such material are blocked with the message, "Please refrain from posting links to known rumour mongers, cheats, liars and all around disinfo agents."


IMO Reeves fucked up in the Batman News Interview and had to back track heavily with the "Whaaa! Of course The Batman movie is gonna be tied into the DCEU!". Despite the fact that in this audio interview at 26:00

http://batman-news.com/2017/08/23/ma...nded-universe/




> isn't part of the extended universe


Hence the tweets to clarify things. He either didn't know what he was talking about and now gotta save his ass, or has a very loose interpretation of what it means to NOT to be a part of the extended universe (looks like he thinks a self contained movie is the same as not being in the universe).

How the hell is it fake news when he is just quoted things he said?

----------


## Pinsir

> IMO Reeves fucked up in the Batman News Interview and had to back track heavily with the "Whaaa! Of course The Batman movie is gonna be tied into the DCEU!". Despite the fact that in this audio interview at 26:00
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/23/ma...nded-universe/
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the tweets to clarify things. He either didn't know what he was talking about and now gotta save his ass, or has a very loose interpretation of what it means to NOT to be a part of the extended universe (looks like he thinks a self contained movie is the same as not being in the universe).
> 
> How the hell is it fake news when he is just quoted things he said?


I think the issue is that creators aren't using the same terms as fans are and so when the jargon doesn't match misinterpretations can occur. At the same time though, there is now an undeniable cottage industry based on bashing the DCEU, that either lie or are so biased they unconsciously spin words to suit their narrative.

----------


## Robotman

The DCEU needs more official statements. They have to realize the power of social media and public opinion. As Krypto's Fleas stated they need a better PR person/firm. They already have a terrible reputation. They need to take control of all these rumors.

----------


## BatmanJones

> It was the only thing they had lined up I was really interested in.
> Oh, and the Batfleck movie, which also seems to be cancelled.


If that's genuinely the only property you're interested in seeing in live-action, how did you wind up on a DC Comics fan forum?

----------


## Pinsir

> The DCEU needs more official statements. They have to realize the power of social media and public opinion. As Krypto's Fleas stated they need a better PR person/firm. They already have a terrible reputation. They need to take control of all these rumors.


Except that wouldn't stop any of these hoaxers, WB and Ben Affleck have gone on all multiple occasions to say that Affleck will continue to fill the role and yet headlines continue to pop up saying "Ben Affleck will leave the Batman role!"

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The DCEU needs more official statements. They have to realize the power of social media and public opinion. As Krypto's Fleas stated they need a better PR person/firm. They already have a terrible reputation. They need to take control of all these rumors.


Or...and call me crazy...but we could all wait for official announcements from WB and simply ignore everything else. I agree the rumors are out of control, but if we all ignored them then they would have no power.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Except that wouldn't stop any of these hoaxers, WB and Ben Affleck have gone on all multiple occasions to say that Affleck will continue to fill the role and yet headlines continue to pop up saying "Ben Affleck will leave the Batman role!"


Except Afflecks own past with the DCEU and rumors are dodgy because he has said one thing and it was another a week later. Truth I don't believe a word WB says about the DCEU anymore. I don't even trust a film is being made until filming starts.

----------


## Carabas

> If that's genuinely the only property you're interested in seeing in live-action, how did you wind up on a DC Comics fan forum?


It is hard for me to connect those films to DC properties.

And everything looks just so ugly.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> The hell? Joker never had an origin so why make one for him? A lot of people wanna preserve that and how he was always just there. I guess you're the people Hollywood panders to lol.
> 
> Todd Phillips from Hangover fame screens solid to you? I understand the concerns. I love Scorcese and he's a producer for the upcoming Joker movie, but on the flip side, Nolan was Executive producer for BvS and look how that shit turned out.


The Joker has never had an origin? No, he's had multiple origins. Jack Napier in Batman '89 was an origin story. The Killing Joke was an origin story, which itself pointed out that the character has already had many other origin stories. This will be one of them. It won't be the definitive origin story. It will be _an_ origin story. What's wrong with that if it makes for a good movie?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Except that wouldn't stop any of these hoaxers, WB and Ben Affleck have gone on all multiple occasions to say that Affleck will continue to fill the role and yet headlines continue to pop up saying "Ben Affleck will leave the Batman role!"


It's because the DCEU gets views. It is what it is, which is why Zack has vocally admitted that addressing the craziness is a futile effort, and WB is simply ignoring it all for the most part. 

I honestly don't get why people are getting up in arms about movies that aren't happening until MAYBE next summer. Let's wait until Justice League, go off that.

----------


## Troian

On the rumours thing, I think there is some truth to them, not all but some of them. WW was not a total mess but the final act was, well you don't have to agree with it but like it or not it is one of the biggiest criticisms many had of the movie. Hollywood is a game of smoke and mirrors and I'd rather wait to see the finished project instead of hearing some statement or rumor. 

Because even "official statements" can be fabricated to do damage control.

----------


## Confuzzled

Wonder Woman's third act may technically have been the film's biggest criticism but that's not saying much at all as the movie was generally lauded. In retrospect it is easy to say so and so may have been right with their vague "scoops" of a film being "messy" as any film in question is rarely flawless. Personally though I thought WW's third act was very effective and much better than the third acts of most MCU films.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> That all sounds really nice, but is Ben still going to be Reeves' Batman?
> 
> By the way anytime any of those rumors start, Geoff Johns and co. should be quick enough to shut them down. The DCEU doesn't need anymore bad publicity at this point.


I kind of agree that WB/DC must recognize the power of social media and be quick to squash rumors.




> The good ol' Mark Hughes clarifies on the past days news: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#355a14837370


One of the few reporters who I truly trust.




> IMO Reeves fucked up in the Batman News Interview and had to back track heavily with the "Whaaa! Of course The Batman movie is gonna be tied into the DCEU!". Despite the fact that in this audio interview at 26:00
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/23/ma...nded-universe/
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the tweets to clarify things. He either didn't know what he was talking about and now gotta save his ass, or has a very loose interpretation of what it means to NOT to be a part of the extended universe (looks like he thinks a self contained movie is the same as not being in the universe).
> 
> How the hell is it fake news when he is just quoted things he said?


Some people are just horrible in interviews.




> It's because the DCEU gets views. It is what it is, which is why Zack has vocally admitted that addressing the craziness is a futile effort, and WB is simply ignoring it all for the most part. 
> 
> I honestly don't get why people are getting up in arms about movies that aren't happening until MAYBE next summer. Let's wait until Justice League, go off that.


I am waiting for JL... with much apprehension.

----------


## Confuzzled

Youtuber Grace Randolph makes some good points here regarding the clickbait storm and confusion. I agree that the reason why WB is reluctant to make official statements yet is because they want to see how Justice League performs.

----------


## Robotman

The only way I'd be interested in a Joker and Harley movie would be if they establish that they have a toxic relationship and finally shut the door on the horrible notion that they're a romantic couple who are deeply in love. Joker abuses her physically, mentally, and emotionally and Harley crawls back to him begging for his forgiveness. I have no idea why anyone who considers themselves a fan of Harley would want them together. She's a tragic figure with battered spouse syndrome. I absolutely hated how they were portrayed in Suicide Squad. I hear that had to do with how WB cut the film together as Ayer originally showed Joker to be a bit more abusive.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Wonder Woman's third act may technically have been the film's biggest criticism but that's not saying much at all as the movie was generally lauded. In retrospect it is easy to say so and so may have been right with their vague "scoops" of a film being "messy" as any film in question is rarely flawless. Personally though I thought WW's third act was very effective and much better than the third acts of most MCU films.


You don't make something good or better by comparing it to something else though. It was a weak third act.  Maybe good, if I'm in a good mood. It being better than most MCU third acts doesn't give it any bonus points, in my opinion.

----------


## Confuzzled

> You don't make something good or better by comparing it to something else though. It was a weak third act.  Maybe good, if I'm in a good mood. It being better than most MCU third acts doesn't give it any bonus points, in my opinion.


It hardly lends credence to the "movie is a mess" rumors either. MCU movies with even weaker third acts than WW aren't called messes, are they?

----------


## Lightning Rider

When something is "a mess", it doesn't have a distinctly flawed part, it has a disjointed feel all over. A mess implies something wrong "all over the place". WW was far from that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Youtuber Grace Randolph makes some good points here regarding the clickbait storm and confusion. I agree that the reason why WB is reluctant to make official statements yet is because they want to see how Justice League performs.


This is absolutely what I think is happening!  




> When something is "a mess", it doesn't have a distinctly flawed part, it has a disjointed feel all over. A mess implies something wrong "all over the place". WW was far from that.


Couldn't agree more.

----------


## Rogue Star

> It hardly lends credence to the "movie is a mess" rumors either. MCU movies with even weaker third acts than WW aren't called messes, are they?


I'm not commenting on Wonder Woman being called a mess. I didn't even pay attention to the rumor when it started.

----------


## Ascended

> The only way I'd be interested in a Joker and Harley movie would be if they establish that they have a toxic relationship and finally shut the door on the horrible notion that they're a romantic couple who are deeply in love. Joker abuses her physically, mentally, and emotionally and Harley crawls back to him begging for his forgiveness. I have no idea why anyone who considers themselves a fan of Harley would want them together. She's a tragic figure with battered spouse syndrome. I absolutely hated how they were portrayed in Suicide Squad. I hear that had to do with how WB cut the film together as Ayer originally showed Joker to be a bit more abusive.


This all day.

My wife is a huge Harley fan, and I've come to appreciate the character through her. And I loathe how they handled her relationship with Joker in that film. 

However, it can be salvaged if the relationship is revealed for what it is and Harley kicks his ass to the curb. I'm a big supporter of Harley's journey out of abuse and I think that's a story that should be told. It's actually an inspiring story when you get down to it. 

If a Joker-Harley movie does happen (which I hope it doesnt) the only way I'll be at all interested is if they go that route with it. Much rather see Sirens or Birds of Prey but a "Harley v Joker" movie might make the error of Suicide Squad worth it.

----------


## Troian

In the WW movie third act, it seemed obvious that there was a scene or two that was edited out making it look less smooth and the whole final boss battle cgi fight seemed like it was forced in there for no reason. 

I guess i may have interpreted that WW rumor as being partly true but whatever and the rumors were for the WW movie not the mcu. I guess it's all up in the air for you to interpret. Anyways, Gal is doing PR about the production of the JL movie. Regardless of what she says, Statements are just statements. I'm just gonna wait for the movie. 

Oh and I didn't know Nicole Kidman is in Aquaman!

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I will strongly bet, as some others are, that AFTER Justice League, we'll start seeing a more coherent message from WB. 
I am really starting to believe they are holding everything (exception Aquaman) in place until reactions and box office returns of JL. Flashpoint will be a great place to soft reboot everything. 

They advanced with Aquaman most likely due to Wan's vision for the film and seeing how it possibly compared to Wonder Woman. 
The Snyderverse is dead and will end with JL. It's probably also why there has not been any news regarding Man of Steel 2. 

WB would be wiser to proceed how Mendelson or Hughes (can't remember) said to move along: not in a unified way ala MCU, but in a loosely connected comic movie universe with individual stories. And I hope that's what they're doing.

----------


## Rogue Star

Get ready for DCEU Rebirth!

----------


## maxmcco

> I will strongly bet, as some others are, that AFTER Justice League, we'll start seeing a more coherent message from WB. 
> I am really starting to believe they are holding everything (exception Aquaman) in place until reactions and box office returns of JL. Flashpoint will be a great place to soft reboot everything. 
> 
> They advanced with Aquaman most likely due to Wan's vision for the film and seeing how it possibly compared to Wonder Woman. 
> The Snyderverse is dead and will end with JL. It's probably also why there has not been any news regarding Man of Steel 2. 
> 
> WB would be wiser to proceed how Mendelson or Hughes (can't remember) said to move along: not in a unified way ala MCU, but in a loosely connected comic movie universe with individual stories. And I hope that's what they're doing.


And I think the reason Shazam was chosen as the next DCEU movie after Aquaman is because it's the only property that was always completely separate from Snyder so they don't need to wait for reaction to Justice League to see if changes are in order. If Justice League is not well received, I hope they leave Shazam on his own earth and disconnected from the rest.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I will strongly bet, as some others are, that AFTER Justice League, we'll start seeing a more coherent message from WB. 
> I am really starting to believe they are holding everything (exception Aquaman) in place until reactions and box office returns of JL. Flashpoint will be a great place to soft reboot everything. 
> 
> They advanced with Aquaman most likely due to Wan's vision for the film and seeing how it possibly compared to Wonder Woman. 
> The Snyderverse is dead and will end with JL. It's probably also why there has not been any news regarding Man of Steel 2. 
> 
> WB would be wiser to proceed how Mendelson or Hughes (can't remember) said to move along: not in a unified way ala MCU, but in a loosely connected comic movie universe with individual stories. And I hope that's what they're doing.


I hope this is true.The only movie i am excited is Justice League just because my childhood dream of seeing Justice League on big screen and maybe an all new and awesome Superman.I liked MoS and BvS but i don't want to see a conflicted Superman anymore.

I believe the reason why Marvel suceeded was not due to interconnectedness.They took the essence of these characters and made entertaining films.Audiences connected with RDJ s Iron Man,with Chris Evans Captain America and Helmsworth's Thor.They are very much the same characters on page heading entertaining movies.Thus you take all of their new fans.Some of them were of Iron Man and some of Thor and some of Captain America.You have curiosity how it works out and you make an awesome and entertaining movie and bam! you have an interconnected universe.
One thing about their interconnections was that they were unobtrusive.Samuel Jackson came after end credits.You can perfectly enjoy Iron Man or Thor without being bored by a setup for a future film.This is what i am seeing now on screen.Let me enjoy!

Hope DC learns this.Keeping the inner core of characters if they could make good and entertaining films and time to time team them up in big films like Justice League i will be perfectly happy.

----------


## Confuzzled

> ...but whatever and the rumors were for the WW movie not the mcu.


Well obviously. The critical reception of BvS and SS made WW a vulnerable target for clickbait rumors. Glad the movie proved all of them wrong with grace and poise befitting of Diana.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I don't know what's worse, people gunning the DCEU at any opportunity or these Snyder worshipping freaks, he's just a guy that makes films yet there are some people who think he's some religious figure.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I don't know what's worse, people gunning the DCEU at any opportunity or these Snyder worshipping freaks, he's just a guy that makes films yet there are some people who think he's some religious figure.


I haven't seen many Snyder worshipers... most people seem to hate his movies. I have issues with Batman V Superman but I think the guy has made some really good movies.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't know what's worse, people gunning the DCEU at any opportunity or these Snyder worshipping freaks, he's just a guy that makes films yet there are some people who think he's some religious figure.


Yeah, I can understand the hate at least (even if I don't agree with it), but the worshiping is another story.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I believe the reason why Marvel suceeded was not due to interconnectedness.They took the essence of these characters and made entertaining films.Audiences connected with RDJ s Iron Man,with Chris Evans Captain America and Helmsworth's Thor.They are very much the same characters on page heading entertaining movies.Thus you take all of their new fans.Some of them were of Iron Man and some of Thor and some of Captain America.You have curiosity how it works out and you make an awesome and entertaining movie and bam! you have an interconnected universe.
> One thing about their interconnections was that they were unobtrusive.Samuel Jackson came after end credits.You can perfectly enjoy Iron Man or Thor without being bored by a setup for a future film.This is what i am seeing now on screen.Let me enjoy!
> 
> Hope DC learns this.Keeping the inner core of characters if they could make good and entertaining films and time to time team them up in big films like Justice League i will be perfectly happy.


Marvel succeeded because they were not held hostage by certain franchises.

Marvel did not film rights to X-Men, Spider-Man, FF and a few others. So there was nothing to fall back on if Blade, Iron Man, CA, Thor & Avengers tanked. So it was get it right from the start.

DC always had Batman & Superman to leech off of-no matter how bad the reactions to those film could be. 

Yeah you got JL film coming out but who is excited for Cyborg? I saw his toys out and they all look like painted over Power Ranger movie figures. Not after you saw Falcon, WM and that guy in the Panther suit. Not to mention Rey's BBF in Star Wares Last Jedi.

And who thought putting out JL toys was a good idea now? When next Friday-Star Wars toys come out? And not with a small section like JL (along with WW, Superman loves Batman, Suicide Squad & Dark Knight) but SECTIONS upon SECTIONS of wall displays.

How does that help the movie?

----------


## batnbreakfast

I'm a comic book collector but never cared for the toys.

----------


## Pinsir

> I don't know what's worse, people gunning the DCEU at any opportunity or these Snyder worshipping freaks, he's just a guy that makes films yet there are some people who think he's some religious figure.


I think the latter is mostly a joke, but even then, you have to admit he does resemble Christ in a plethora of venues.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> This all day.
> 
> My wife is a huge Harley fan, and I've come to appreciate the character through her. And I loathe how they handled her relationship with Joker in that film. 
> 
> However, it can be salvaged if the relationship is revealed for what it is and Harley kicks his ass to the curb. I'm a big supporter of Harley's journey out of abuse and I think that's a story that should be told. It's actually an inspiring story when you get down to it. 
> 
> If a Joker-Harley movie does happen (which I hope it doesnt) the only way I'll be at all interested is if they go that route with it. Much rather see Sirens or Birds of Prey but a "Harley v Joker" movie might make the error of Suicide Squad worth it.


I would have preferred they kept those scenes in (the slap for example), but at the same time, toxic relationships like that aren't abusive 100% of the time. Abusers manipulate with affection at selective strategic times to rope people in and keep them dependent on them. Harley kicking his ass to the curb could be a nice transition and story resolution, but the fact is that for most of her existence, she has put up with that abuse. The movie did show Joker torture her already and almost leave her in the pit.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> Marvel succeeded because they were not held hostage by certain franchises.
> 
> Marvel did not film rights to X-Men, Spider-Man, FF and a few others. So there was nothing to fall back on if Blade, Iron Man, CA, Thor & Avengers tanked. So it was get it right from the start.
> 
> DC always had Batman & Superman to leech off of-no matter how bad the reactions to those film could be. 
> 
> Yeah you got JL film coming out but who is excited for Cyborg? I saw his toys out and they all look like painted over Power Ranger movie figures. Not after you saw Falcon, WM and that guy in the Panther suit. Not to mention Rey's BBF in Star Wares Last Jedi.
> 
> And who thought putting out JL toys was a good idea now? When next Friday-Star Wars toys come out? And not with a small section like JL (along with WW, Superman loves Batman, Suicide Squad & Dark Knight) but SECTIONS upon SECTIONS of wall displays.
> ...


It might be smart to put out the updated guys who have a film already or are in the public eye like Flash, but yeah it is a terrible idea to launch them as a whole alongside Star Wars. Even if they beat out Star Wars initially, Star wars has always been good about keeping the brand active. It's a losing battle to release side by side since as it gets closer to Battlefront 2, the launch of Rebels, and Episode 8, DC will loose sales. Considering Star Wars is launching things over the next few months, DC might be doing it to get something out since it's a bad idea to compete with Star Wars overall, but it's still going to hurt them to launch it even now. I can't imagine the after-movie market is going to be kind to them considering how much the Lucasfilm products have been spaced out.

----------


## Confuzzled

WB/DC has also made some deal with Walmart so there's that. The Wonder Woman merchandise sold like hotcakes and I think that will create hype for some of the JL stuff. You guys are being overtly pessimistic. It's not like everyone would buy only Star Wars stuff over the next few months. And JL doesn't have to beat SW, they have to make Avengers level sales. This year, Wonder Woman and Batman are expected to do that much, INDIVIDUALLY, with Superman slightly behind them.

----------


## Lightning Rider

New Leto interview. Says there's a lot of "hype and bullshit" about his acting prep and that he's happy to be a part of the DCEU.

https://twitter.com/kyleandjackieo/s...978560/video/1

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah, I can understand the hate at least (even if I don't agree with it), but the worshiping is another story.


The "misunderstood masterpiece" is the biggest BS defense of BvS.  If you liked it... fine.  Calling it a masterpiece of a film is the biggest stretch.

----------


## Robotman

> The "misunderstood masterpiece" is the biggest BS defense of BvS.  If you liked it... fine.  Calling it a masterpiece of a film is the biggest stretch.


The people who worship Snyder's DC movies remind me of the folks these days who keep spouting the phrase "fake news" even when the news story is backed up with data and facts. I hear so many Snyder followers say "you can't qualify or rate how good a movie is." Yes you can! A good film has good story structure, excellent character development, and cohesive editing. These are all things learned in Film 101 classes. I'm not saying that film critics are always right but they are usually people who have studied film making. It's totally fine if you like Transformers for what it is, but it's not a well made movie. Same goes for BvS. That's fine that you enjoyed it but don't get pissed at a film critic for pointing out that it was horribly edited and the character arcs were bad. It's not an anti-DC/Snyder conspiracy.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The "misunderstood masterpiece" is the biggest BS defense of BvS.  If you liked it... fine.  Calling it a masterpiece of a film is the biggest stretch.


Calling *any* CBM a masterpiece is a stretch, IMO.

----------


## Doctor Know

> The people who worship Snyder's DC movies remind me of the folks these days who keep spouting the phrase "fake news" even when the news story is backed up with data and facts. I hear so many Snyder followers say "you can't qualify or rate how good a movie is." Yes you can! *A good film has good story structure, excellent character development, and cohesive editing.* These are all things learned in Film 101 classes. I'm not saying that film critics are always right but they are usually people who have studied film making. It's totally fine if you like Transformers for what it is, but it's not a well made movie. Same goes for BvS. That's fine that you enjoyed it but don't get pissed at a film critic for pointing out that it was horribly edited and the character arcs were bad. It's not an anti-DC/Snyder conspiracy.


It's a viscious cycle in that way though. You look at movies that are widely considered to be bad movies but have positive critic ratings, such as:

The Star Wars Prequels
The Hobbit Trilogy
Spider-Man 3
Iron Man 2
Thor The Dark World
Prometheus
Alien Covenant
Quantum of Solace
Spectre
Cloud Atlas
Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 1 and 2
Ghostbusters 2016 (Certified Fresh)
Age of Ultron (Certified Fresh)
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (Certified Fresh)
*spoilers:*
 Other well known films I would put on this list would be Rogue One, Jurassic World and Beauty and the Beast 2017)
*end of spoilers*


You can't help but wonder what critics saw in the aforementioned movies and others I didn't list. Are MOS, BvS or SS any worse than any of the films I listed? I don't think so.

@bold 
Not every film I listed meets the criteria you stated a good film needs. There's a noticeable disparity.

Seems more like a popularity contest on the professional critic side, and detractors of a film will use a website's critic rating to justify their opinions about a movie. Some films get a pass, when they shouldn't. Critic scores for Spider-Man 3 vs TASM2 for example. While others are held to higher standards and have greater falls, than a comparable movie. The number of middle of the road reviews for both BvS and Age of Ultron, but AoU is certified fresh. Etc

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Calling *any* CBM a masterpiece is a stretch, IMO.


VERY few movies in history are true masterpieces.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> VERY few movies in history are true masterpieces.


I would agree with that.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Calling *any* CBM a masterpiece is a stretch, IMO.


Agreed. 

I think Logan, Spider-Man 2, and TDK are the closest, but each of those have their issues.

----------


## Rogue Star

You guys telling me Blankman wasn't a masterpiece??? You're nuts! All'uh yuhz!

----------


## ashrafanam

*Justice League time frame revealed:* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUdZcP20yI

----------


## Carabas

> You guys telling me Blankman wasn't a masterpiece??? You're nuts! All'uh yuhz!


Having not seen it I can't say if it is a masterpiece or not.

I do know what it is not though: a comic book movie.

----------


## Bukdiah

> You guys telling me Blankman wasn't a masterpiece??? You're nuts! All'uh yuhz!


lmao that shit was hilarious

----------


## Styles

Shazam Director Teases The Beginning Of Pre-Production

----------


## Rogue Star

> Having not seen it I can't say if it is a masterpiece or not.
> 
> I do know what it is not though: a comic book movie.


Well, the conversation was expanded a bit.




> VERY few movies in history are true masterpieces.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Gerard Johnstone, writer/director of indie horror film Housebound, hired to polish the JLD script

http://deadline.com/2017/08/justice-...202157444/amp/




> EXCLUSIVE: Warner Bros and DC are starting over in their search for a director for Justice League Dark, but one of the aspirants, Gerard Johnstone, has been hired to do a polish on the script. He made an impression on the studio with his presentation, but what got him in there was his 2014 film Housebound.
> 
> The search to find a director to helm a darker version of Justice League  reportedly centering on John Constantine, Swamp Thing, Deadman, Zatanna and Etrigan the Demon  will take a bit longer, though. Doug Liman left to do Chaos Walking, and while it looked for a moment like Andy Muschietti would be the man, everything changed when New Lines Stephen King novel adaptation It turned in an outsized web reaction to the trailer, and from there it was clear that Muschietti and his sibling producer partner Barbara wont be doing anything other than readying the second installment of the movie. It will pick up the group of clown-hunting friends when they are adults who return to Derry, Maine, 27 years later when the malevolent Pennywise begins killing children again.
> 
> Johnstone is repped by CAA, Key Creatives and attorney George Davis at Nelson Davis.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> VERY few movies in history are true masterpieces.


It depends on how you look at it. Robocop is a masterpiece for what it's trying to do. It's perfect. Batman V Superman on the other hand...  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rogue Star

Batman v Superman was a damned good Batman movie.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Batman v Superman was a damned good Batman movie.


I've never disagreed with that  :Big Grin:

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I've never disagreed with that


Are you (and Rogue Star) an endangered species?  :EEK!: 

For me the best moment in BvS is Bruce serving coffee to Alfred. Always gives me the biggest possible smile.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Are you (and Rogue Star) an endangered species?


Depends.  I feel like one when driving in certain areas.

----------


## Triple J

> It's a viscious cycle in that way though. You look at movies that are widely considered to be bad movies but have positive critic ratings, such as:
> 
> The Star Wars Prequels
> The Hobbit Trilogy
> Spider-Man 3
> Iron Man 2
> Thor The Dark World
> Prometheus
> Alien Covenant
> ...


Pretty much, I don't give much credence to the so called critics, because some films seemed to be held at a higher standard, while others get a pass. So, the argument that is a film is good or bad because critics said so doesn't fly with me.

As far as BvS goes, it's not a masterpiece, definitely had issues, but it's still a great movie.

----------


## Triple J

Whedon receives screenplay credit for JL




> Director: Zack Snyder
> 
> Writers: Story by Chris Terrio & Zack Snyder, Screenplay by Chris Terrio and Joss Whedon
> Based on characters from DC Entertainment, Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
> 
> Producers: Charles Roven, Deborah Snyder, Jon Berg, Geoff Johns
> 
> Executive Producers: Jim Rowe, Wesley Coller, Curtis Kanemoto, Chris Terrio, Ben Affleck
> 
> ...


http://batman-news.com/2017/08/29/jo...writer-credit/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Whedon receives screenplay credit for JL
> 
> 
> 
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/29/jo...writer-credit/


I'm sure he deserves it after his contributions. Also important to note that Zack Snyder is still listed as Director. There goes the "Joss is re-making the entire movie" argument once and for all. 

Also of note? Henry Cavill gets second billing in the Cast listing! Pretty good for a guy who's supposedly only going to be in like a third of the movie!  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

Gal Gadot should have received the second billing. Cavill should have received the "and" or "with" billing at the end.

----------


## Elmo

BvS to me is a masterpiece in every way. Name another film that portrays a dark character study of two cultural icons in such a masterful way. It is engaging, intellectual, and visually stunning. The fact that people actually still want to call it a bad film is utterly dumbfounding to me. Maybe not their cup of tea, but BAD??? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

----------


## Elmo

> Also of note? Henry Cavill gets second billing in the Cast listing! Pretty good for a guy who's supposedly only going to be in like a third of the movie!





> Gal Gadot should have received the second billing. Cavill should have received the "and" or "with" billing at the end.


To be fair what we have seen in the trailer covers less than 20 minutes of what is in the actual film. There's a whole 2 hours of footage that has not been shown yet. And as far as I know we don't know anything about Cavill's role, from what he himself has stated it's pretty big actually. He stated that Superman and Batman have their own dynamic together throughout the film.

----------


## batnbreakfast

How does WB work? Why do they attach a producer to one movie (Scorsese), a director (McKay) to another and announce a few flicks that may or may not get made? Does a writer start 10 novels (He should work on getting 1- 2 done)? Maybe I'm a simpleton but I'd really like for someone to explain it. Or is Hollywood just a madhouse?

----------


## Jokerz79

> BvS to me is a masterpiece in every way. Name another film that portrays a dark character study of two cultural icons in such a masterful way. It is engaging, intellectual, and visually stunning. The fact that people actually still want to call it a bad film is utterly dumbfounding to me. Maybe not their cup of tea, but BAD??? That doesn't make a lick of sense.


The Ultimate Edition is a good movie the theatrical cut is a mess and I blame the studio.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Are you (and Rogue Star) an endangered species? 
> 
> For me the best moment in BvS is Bruce serving coffee to Alfred. Always gives me the biggest possible smile.


What makes me laugh is the scene right after Batman works out. He's like walking towards the computer and he looks so sore haha. Like he actually just did a serious workout.

----------


## RealWonderman

> BvS to me is a masterpiece in every way. Name another film that portrays a dark character study of two cultural icons in such a masterful way. It is engaging, intellectual, and visually stunning. The fact that people actually still want to call it a bad film is utterly dumbfounding to me. Maybe not their cup of tea, but BAD??? That doesn't make a lick of sense.


I agree...but only if we're talking about the Ultimate Cut. 

I'm trying to decide which is the best watch order...

MoS
BvS UC 
WW

or 
WW
MoS
BvS UC

----------


## RealWonderman

> Gal Gadot should have received the second billing. Cavill should have received the "and" or "with" billing at the end.


TOP billing for Gal, IMO

----------


## RealWonderman

> I agree...but only if we're talking about the Ultimate Cut. 
> 
> I'm trying to decide which is the best watch order...
> 
> MoS
> BvS UC 
> WW
> 
> or 
> ...


Eh.  I've got time.  I'll try both.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I agree...but only if we're talking about the Ultimate Cut. 
> 
> I'm trying to decide which is the best watch order...
> 
> MoS
> BvS UC 
> WW
> 
> or 
> ...


Interesting. I'll try the latter.

----------


## Bukdiah

> What makes me laugh is the scene right after Batman works out. He's like walking towards the computer and he looks so sore haha. Like he actually just did a serious workout.


What cracks me up is wtf does Bruce think doing some calisthenics and weight lifting gonna do against Superman of all people? lol

----------


## Bukdiah

> How does WB work? Why do they attach a producer to one movie (Scorsese), a director (McKay) to another and announce a few flicks that may or may not get made? Does a writer start 10 novels (He should work on getting 1- 2 done)? Maybe I'm a simpleton but I'd really like for someone to explain it. Or is Hollywood just a madhouse?


I can see merits to working on projects in parallel especially if they are not too related. Limiting yourself to only one movie at a time would make it take longer to push product out. Hell, I'm assigned to multiple projects at my job and just delegate my time accordingly.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> What cracks me up is wtf does Bruce think doing some calisthenics and weight lifting gonna do against Superman of all people? lol


Considering his entire strategy was about taking away Superman's powers and forcing him to fight like a human? Kinda stands to reason he'd want to be in peak condition to take full advantage. 

But that's just me and my whacky logic.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Considering his entire strategy was about taking away Superman's powers and forcing him to fight like a human? Kinda stands to reason he'd want to be in peak condition to take full advantage. 
> 
> But that's just me and my whacky logic.


lmao but then he creates a mech suit that augments his strength in a manner that'll help more than the slow process of strength training. It takes time to get stronger.  Like, if you're gonna go that route, just work on your mech suit and don't waste time hitting the weights. I think Ben just wanted to show off his movie body to be honest since he was covered in a suit for the most part. I remember articles about his transformation and even an interview with his fitness trainer.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> lmao but then he creates a mech suit that augments his strength in a manner that'll help more than the slow process of strength training. It takes time to get stronger.  Like, if you're gonna go that route, just work on your mech suit and don't waste time hitting the weights. I think Ben just wanted to show off his movie body to be honest since he was covered in a suit for the most part. I remember articles about his transformation and even an interview with his fitness trainer.


I do believe Bruce is known for his backup plans, correct? 

1.) Backup plan. Bruce couldn't be certain the Kryptonite would work. Having something else in place that just might allow him to survive against Superman is a pretty smart idea.

2.) Operating the suit very likely requires physical endurance. I'm pretty sure if you put a 90-lb weakling in the suit, he'd still get tired pretty quick. 

3.) Batman is known for being pretty obsessive about his physical fitness, so the workout didn't necessarily have anything to do with getting ready for the fight. Bruce has a workout regimen, and he doesn't deviate from it even in the face of a big fight.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I do believe Bruce is known for his backup plans, correct? 
> 
> 1.) Backup plan. Bruce couldn't be certain the Kryptonite would work. Having something else in place that just might allow him to survive against Superman is a pretty smart idea.
> 
> 2.) Operating the suit very likely requires physical endurance. I'm pretty sure if you put a 90-lb weakling in the suit, he'd still get tired pretty quick. 
> 
> 3.) Batman is known for being pretty obsessive about his physical fitness, so the workout didn't necessarily have anything to do with getting ready for the fight. Bruce has a workout regimen, and he doesn't deviate from it even in the face of a big fight.


4.) You gotta have something for everyone in your movie  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Bukdiah

> 4.) You gotta have something for everyone in your movie


Dat Batman Booty. Pirate Batman is canon!

dnzm75.jpg

----------


## Carabas

> Gal Gadot should have received the second billing. Cavill should have received the "and" or "with" billing at the end.


Who gets what billing on Justice League was probably decided upon before Dawn Of Justice was even released. And is not that simply altered.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Working out seems like Batman standard procedure (blame Rocky's training montage) not necessarily because of the upcoming fight against Supes. I have more problems with Nightmare Dessert Batman wearing goggles and a trenchcoat (but it looked pretty cool)

----------


## JediKage

Plus really it doesn't matter Gal should be more worried about her screen time and paycheck then where her name comes up in the movie. 

What surprises me quite frankly is Ray Fisher has 4th Billing...did he win some stage acting awards or something because his movie and tv record is spotty at best.

And yeah Bruce hitting the gym especially since he recently been retired makes sense the plan was basically weaken superman and then outfight him through a series of trap.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Plus really it doesn't matter Gal should be more worried about her screen time and paycheck then where her name comes up in the movie. 
> 
> What surprises me quite frankly is Ray Fisher has 4th Billing...did he win some stage acting awards or something because his movie and tv record is spotty at best.


Lol I'm sure Gal doesn't have to worry much about her screentime and paycheck now.

Ray getting fourth billing probably confirms that Cyborg has a bigger role than Flash or Aquaman. Kind of makes sense as he's the only one whose chances of getting a solo are spotty (well, other than Superman) so Snyder probably put a lot of focus on the Silas-Vic relationship in JL.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Lol I'm sure Gal doesn't have to worry much about her screentime and paycheck now.
> 
> Ray getting fourth billing probably confirms that Cyborg has a bigger role than Flash or Aquaman. Kind of makes sense as he's the only one whose chances of getting a solo are spotty (well, other than Superman) so Snyder probably put a lot of focus on the Silas-Vic relationship in JL.


Yeah I assumed this movie would be a Cyborg origin story with Flash and Aquaman's stuff being glossed over.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yeah I assumed this movie would be a Cyborg origin story with Flash and Aquaman's stuff being glossed over.


Well, I wouldn't say glossed over. More like we are just introduced to Arthur's world and Barry's life whereas Vic's backstory with his father is probably delved into a little more.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Well, I wouldn't say glossed over. More like we are just introduced to Arthur's world and Barry's life whereas Vic's backstory with his father is probably delved into a little more.


That's what I mean. Don't need to go too deep into Flash and Aquaman.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

I think this video paints the best, unbiased picture, of the biggest problem with BvS:UE, which would be the basis of the ideological rivalry between the heroes: in that there is none.




This, to me, ultimately comes down to the ultimate problem with BvS being that we didn't get a Superman that developed into the symbol for peace. Even if he's still to be depicted as learning, he has to at least make the choice that he's going to try to be, and embrace being, that symbol, for everyone.

I like the movie a lot, but the fact that we never got a MoS2, imo, always hindered it's plot. Or, if Lex, Doomsday, and the JL aspects of the plot were removed entirely, maybe they could've fit that development in. 

Imo, Bruce's vendetta with Superman should've been the same, but without Lex's manipulation, but also a mask for his own insecurities, and that should be made apparent. I think it would've work better with audiences, and the story, if Superman looked to Batman's career as something to learn from, and then seeing the jaded Batman as something he wants to avoid becoming. I, personally (and I'm a Batman fan), would've had Superman win the fight, and in the process respark the ideals that spawned Batman in the first place. I would've had the endgame villain be Metallo (Wally turned into a monster) so that Bruce could further be inspired by watching what he thought to be a god, now rendered powerless, still futily fighting to protect the people. Showing Superman's fight to be a mirror of Bruce's war on crime, in that it may seem futile, but someone has to do something, if the mission is to save lives. He joins the fight, and the two win the day. We then later find out that Metallo simply a trial run by Lex, who's been more that willing to observe, and learn, from the sidelines.

So in the end, the movie isn't an ideological battle, but Superman inspiring this older, broken, cynical Batman to be the hero he once was. That it's not all for nothing.

----------


## Rogue Star

> I think this video paints the best, unbiased picture, of the biggest problem with BvS:UE, which would be the basis of the ideological rivalry between the heroes: in that there is none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This, to me, ultimately comes down to the ultimate problem with BvS being that we didn't get a Superman that developed into the symbol for peace. Even if he's still to be depicted as learning, he has to at least make the choice that he's going to try to be, and embrace being, that symbol, for everyone.
> 
> I like the movie a lot, but the fact that we never got a MoS2, imo, always hindered it's plot. Or, if Lex, Doomsday, and the JL aspects of the plot were removed entirely, maybe they could've fit that development in. 
> 
> ...


The video nailed it.

Like I've said before, Batman v Superman was a good *Batman* movie. That's why I enjoyed it.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Today's rant: Harley & Joker do not belong in SS 2! They weren't in the original concept back in the early 90s, I don't care if they've been a part since the last few years. Deport them to their own movie corner! You don't put Captain America in the X-Men or Rocket Racoon in the Avengers! Don't put HQ & J in a SS movie (if it ever happens)

Must be a slow news day. So I thought of creating my own little problem :Smile:

----------


## Rogue Star

The less of both of the DCEU Joker and Harley the better, in my opinion.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Today's rant: Harley & Joker do not belong in SS 2! They weren't in the original concept back in the early 90s, I don't care if they've been a part since the last few years. Deport them to their own movie corner! You don't put Captain America in the X-Men or Rocket Racoon in the Avengers! Don't put HQ & J in a SS movie (if it ever happens)
> 
> Must be a slow news day. So I thought of creating my own little problem


lmao Deport them? Your word choice gives me the giggles. Harley has been a staple in the newer SS groups for a while, but yeah, some of them weren't OG Ostrander members. SS does operate on a revolving door of criminals, so they can get away with whatever,

----------


## Jokerz79

> Today's rant: Harley & Joker do not belong in SS 2! They weren't in the original concept back in the early 90s, I don't care if they've been a part since the last few years. Deport them to their own movie corner! You don't put Captain America in the X-Men or Rocket Racoon in the Avengers! Don't put HQ & J in a SS movie (if it ever happens)
> 
> Must be a slow news day. So I thought of creating my own little problem


Well technically Rocket is going to be in the Avengers.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Well technically Rocket is going to be in the Avengers.


If Marvel had the movie rights, Cap would probably be with the X-Men too. 

It's fascinating to imagine how different the MCU would've been if they had Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four movie rights from the start.

----------


## Jokerz79

> If Marvel had the movie rights, Cap would probably be with the X-Men too. 
> 
> It's fascinating to imagine how different the MCU would've been if they had Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four movie rights from the start.


I'm not knocking it Avengers Infinity War is currently my most anticipated film just liked the irony of the previous statement.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> lmao Deport them? Your word choice gives me the giggles. Harley has been a staple in the newer SS groups for a while, but yeah, some of them weren't OG Ostrander members. SS does operate on a revolving door of criminals, so they can get away with whatever,


(Forgive me for choosing words poorly sometimes still practicing English.) Revolving Door, exactly! That nails it :Big Grin: 



> If Marvel had the movie rights, Cap would probably be with the X-Men too. 
> 
> It's fascinating to imagine how different the MCU would've been if they had Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four movie rights from the start.


In retrospect, that might have been the best thing that happened since they were forced to make some brave, unexpected and creative choices. Like imagining DC starting its DCEU with WonderGal and Aquadude instead of Superdeath and Batvet.

----------


## Carabas

> lmao Deport them? Your word choice gives me the giggles. Harley has been a staple in the newer SS groups for a while, but yeah, some of them weren't OG Ostrander members. SS does operate on a revolving door of criminals, so they can get away with whatever,


Half the team also used to be volunteers without the bracelets, as well as actual superheroes.

----------


## Rogue Star

> If Marvel had the movie rights, Cap would probably be with the X-Men too. 
> 
> It's fascinating to imagine how different the MCU would've been if they had Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four movie rights from the start.


I'm pretty sure we'd all be like "Rocket who?"

----------


## Carabas

> I'm pretty sure we'd all be like "Rocket who?"


We'd all be like Iron Man who?

ETA: Okay, not we obviously, but mainstream audiences.

----------


## Rogue Star

Man, November feels like forever.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

HAs anyone seen the individual character posters? All I can say is...Batman and Wonder Woman are the only ones I think are acceptable.

----------


## Frontier

> HAs anyone seen the individual character posters? All I can say is...Batman and Wonder Woman are the only ones I think are acceptable.


I'm glad Aquaman's at least got some kind of chainmail/armor thing going on...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

I'm getting a deja vu feel with each pic released.  :Big Grin: 



Source: http://people.com/movies/ben-affleck...ng-of-weirdos/

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

The Joker Movie: Warner Bros. Wants Class, Cachet and Maybe Leonardo DiCaprio: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...r-role-1034392

----------


## Frontier

Jared Leto is reportedly not happy with the possibility of there being multiple movie Jokers.

----------


## Rogue Star

It's creating a competition within their own "universe". I'd be unhappy too.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I'm not a fan of Leto or his Joker (maybe he was cheated on by editors/cut who knows?) but I feel bad for the guy

At this point I am looking forward to Black Manta and Black MAsk more than ANY Joker

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I hate everything about this honestly.

I think the elseworlds concept ihas huge potential in the long term as far as avoiding comic book movie fatigue, but at this point, DC doesn't have the foundation in their "main universe" to pull this off, imo.

----------


## Confuzzled

I agree that Elseworlds has potential, especially with perfect creative teams if WB wants to be ambitious and has Oscar dreams. But it's too early at this point and might even confuse audiences to the detriment of the main DCEU.

Also, this eagerness to make an Elseworld-y line of films does reflect WB execs' overreliance on Batman and Superman (as those two were the ones who enjoyed the most EW stories thanks to their iconic natures, with Wonder Woman being a distant third). Batfleck's commitment to the DCEU is shaky and Cavill's Superman solos have been benched for the time being, so EW seems like a convenient way of reaching around those problems to still milk the World's Finest cows.

----------


## Johnny

> I'm getting a deja vu feel with each pic released. 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://people.com/movies/ben-affleck...ng-of-weirdos/


Amazing pic.

----------


## stephens2177

They keep using the same scene for every "new" and "exciting" pic from the movie.its like the actors walked 5 steps and every step they took a pic,and then they let one out every few days or weeks,do you feel like you are getting something new,guess what it's not.

There are only 2 other photo shoot sets of pics they have let out also.they just sprinkle the same shoot,but slightly different pose.

You are not slick WB,it's a long ass movie,give us a few new pics,from a few new scenes.


Please

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'm mostly fine with less pics. Surprise me a little.

Agreed on not feeling the elseworlds projects.

----------


## stephens2177

> I'm mostly fine with less pics. Surprise me a little.
> 
> Agreed on not feeling the elseworlds projects.



I would be totally ok with less pics,way more than this barrage of pics that are being portrayed as new,when they are not at all.

----------


## Rogue Star

Yeah, I prefer to go in blind, so to speak.

----------


## JediKage

> I would be totally ok with less pics,way more than this barrage of pics that are being portrayed as new,when they are not at all.


You think they even took 5 steps...photoshop most likely.

----------


## Rogue Star

> You think they even took 5 steps...photoshop most likely.


They don't have to move. They can just swap out the background digitally.  One thing we can say for sure from all of these pictures is... there's going to be a lot of standing around. lol

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

At least in 3rd pic Flash and Wonder Woman switch sides.  :Wink:

----------


## Rogue Star

That's the million dollar question! What are they looking at?

Plot twist: it's a mirror....  

or maybe it's the Hollywood Reporter!

----------


## Jaddor

Leo Di Capiro as the joker is troubling for two reasons.

*I.* He is too old for an origins story.

*II.* He tends to over act in some of his film and that won't be cool since the Joker is already over the top.

----------


## Johnny

DiCaprio for an ORIGIN Joker movie? Get the fuck outta here. You know the clickbait media has hit a new low when even THR seems full of it. If you can't fully trust the trades anymore, there's a real problem here.

----------


## Clark_Kent

"Unnamed sources."
"Anonymous source"
"Unnamed source close to the project"

Uh huh. My unnamed sources say Trump shares scotch & a cigar with the ghost of Burgess Meredith in those Rose Garden every other Thursday. Why won't anyone believe this?? 

I guess I'll wait to hear from WB on this alt-universe thing, or perhaps for a quote from Leto himself regarding his displeasure (shrug).

----------


## batnbreakfast

> "Unnamed sources."
> "Anonymous source"
> "Unnamed source close to the project"
> 
> Uh huh. My unnamed sources say Trump shares scotch & a cigar with the ghost of Burgess Meredith in those Rose Garden every other Thursday. Why won't anyone believe this?? 
> 
> I guess I'll wait to hear from WB on this alt-universe thing, or perhaps for a quote from Leto himself regarding his displeasure (shrug).


Ok, now I really wanna know more about that garden and what exact date it is because I'd love to watch a force ghost version of BMeredith.

----------


## Johnny

Funny that a porn parody seems to have a better GL costume than a 200mil. movie. Never doubt the incompetence of the idiots at WB.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

If DC wants to lean into the Multiverse much more, I am all for it. The Joker is a great characters and lots of great stories can be told with him. If that launches a whole series of alternate universe movies spinning out of Flashpoint, I am on board if it leads to great movies. I don't want Marvel 2.0. I want DC.

The TV shows and movies will crossover. Count my words.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Oh snap it's September folkssssss!!! JL is right around the corner.... Not gonna lie getting nervous thinking about it, we finally gonna see the JL on the big screen.!! Movie Event of the year for me.

----------


## Carabas

I think I'm going to hold off until they release the complete version on blu-ray.

----------


## JediKage

> Funny that a porn parody seems to have a better GL costume than a 200mil. movie. Never doubt the incompetence of the idiots at WB.


...that actually looks really good lol.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> ...that actually looks really good lol.


They managed to make a great looking Batwoman costume. Just plain awesome!

----------


## Confuzzled

> ...that actually looks really good lol.


That poster is much better than big studio produced fare. For example

----------


## Carabas

Regarding porn parodies...

It's a lot easier to make good looking costumes when your actors don't have to actually wear them during action scenes.

----------


## JediKage

Meh its GL...its point and click for most of his fight scenes and maybe a punch. He aint Batman or Wonder Woman where badass physical fight scenes are required.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Funny that a porn parody seems to have a better GL costume than a 200mil. movie. Never doubt the incompetence of the idiots at WB.


I can't believe they actually shoved Kate Kane in there...


is what I'm sure people will be saying after watching that movie! heyooooooo!

----------


## nightrider

> Funny that a porn parody seems to have a better GL costume than a 200mil. movie. Never doubt the incompetence of the idiots at WB.


The actors do really look the part so much so that its creepy lol.

----------


## Johnny

> The actors do really look the part so much so that its creepy lol.


It is creepy...

----------


## Confuzzled

Why did they include a Green Lantern (Kyle?) and Batwoman instead of Aquaman and Mera?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Why did they include a Green Lantern (Kyle?) and Batwoman instead of Aquaman and Mera?


I am more curious over the fact why you are questioning porn lol.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> I am more curious over the fact why you are questioning porn lol.


I'm more curious over the fact that why this XXX poster or whatever is being discussed about on this thread and even on this site. It has absolutely no bearing or relevance towards DC/WB or even on this site.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Slow news day, I'm sure that soon enough we'll be back to the good 'ol "Will Ben bat or not bat" and other variations of the "DCEU sky is falling" song and dance. :P

----------


## Bukdiah

> Funny that a porn parody seems to have a better GL costume than a 200mil. movie. Never doubt the incompetence of the idiots at WB.


Oh, that's dope and I gotta check this out lol

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Slow news day, I'm sure that soon enough we'll be back to the good 'ol "Will Ben bat or not bat" and other variations of the "DCEU sky is falling" song and dance. :P


Tbh, I just avoid all news now, hence I haven't been too active on here lately. Too much BS to deal with, not worth worrying over.

----------


## Johnny

> I'm more curious over the fact that why this XXX poster or whatever is being discussed about on this thread and even on this site. It has absolutely no bearing or relevance towards DC/WB or even on this site.


Eh like others said, it's just slow news day. I wanted to make fun of WB that even some adult movie studio seems to care more about GL than they do.

----------


## byrd156

> Eh like others said, it's just slow news day. I wanted to make fun of WB that even some adult movie studio seems to care more about GL than they do.


I'm actually very surprised at the quality of the costumes.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> I'm actually very surprised at the quality of the costumes.


Yeah, they look great in airbrushed photos.  Then when you actually see them in motion you point and laugh.

----------


## JediKage

And that is different from what I am doing to Cyborg and Flash's COsumes, How? 

Except they don't even look good airbrushed in photos so...

----------


## Troian

> Yeah, they look great in airbrushed photos.  Then when you actually see them in motion you point and laugh.


I mean major movie studios heavily edit their photos too but at least they tend to look more higher quality I guess.

----------


## Bukdiah

> And that is different from what I am doing to Cyborg and Flash's COsumes, How? 
> 
> Except they don't even look good airbrushed in photos so...


LMAO, shots fired!

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Updated ‘Justice League’ logo pushes the DC brand forward:* https://batman-news.com/2017/09/03/j...ted-dc-comics/

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Logo looks the same?

----------


## Robotman

> *Updated ‘Justice League’ logo pushes the DC brand forward:* https://batman-news.com/2017/09/03/j...ted-dc-comics/


Putting "DC" in front of the title is a good idea. Marvel has done an amazing job with their brand marketing. Marvel's Avengers, Marvel's Agents of SHIELD, etc. It's gotten to the point that the average moviegoers think the name MARVEL is just another word for comic books. Like how all soda is Coke or all tissues are Kleenex. 

I liked how they initially called Legends of Tomorrow "DC's Legends of Tomorrow". It's about time they start pushing the brand name in the movie titles.

----------


## Rogue Star

In Marvel's case, they had to put MARVEL in front of the Avengers because there was already an "Avengers" movie made in the 90's.

----------


## Carabas

> In Marvel's case, they had to put MARVEL in front of the Avengers because there was already an "Avengers" movie made in the 90's.


These Avengers also predate the comic book Avengers by two years.

----------


## Confuzzled

They also changed the title of the film in the UK to "Avengers Assemble" to avoid confusion as the show the 90's movie was based on was apparently a bigger deal there.

----------


## Frontier

John Cena and Joshua Sasse (Galavant) are apparently the frontrunners for Shazam.

----------


## Johnny

> John Cena and Joshua Sasse (Galavant) are apparently the frontrunners for Shazam.


I call BS on that one. "That Hash Tag Show" seems to have credibility as far as character breakdowns are concerned, but I don't think the same goes for castings or directors. As ironic as the wrestling fan in me would find it to see John Cena as Shazam and The Rock as Black Adam, Cena is 40 years old. I can believe "THTS" that DC is looking for a guy in his 40s for Hal Jordan, but no way I would believe that about Shazam. This reminds of those rumors back in the day that Triple H was a frontrunner for Thor...

----------


## Vanguard-01

> John Cena and Joshua Sasse (Galavant) are apparently the frontrunners for Shazam.


Cena would be all kinds of silly, but Sasse? You know? That just might be crazy enough to work! 

We KNOW he's got the comedic chops (Galavant was hilarious,) so he could definitely pull off the lighthearted vibe we're hearing about. He looks pretty close to the character too. 

Not a bad choice if he gets it.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Cena would be all kinds of silly, but Sasse? You know? That just might be crazy enough to work! 
> 
> We KNOW he's got the comedic chops (Galavant was hilarious,) so he could definitely pull off the lighthearted vibe we're hearing about. He looks pretty close to the character too. 
> 
> Not a bad choice if he gets it.


Agreed. I loved _Galavant_, too, and Sasse did a fine job there. Cena? Ugh!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I now want Cena to happen because of how stupid the idea is lol

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

If John Cena gets cast as Shazam, and with the Rock as Black Adam, then it's only natural Hulk Hogan gets cast to play the wizard!

----------


## Johnny

> If John Cena gets cast as Shazam, and with the Rock as Black Adam, then it's only natural Hulk Hogan gets cast to play the wizard!


Then Stone Cold as Sivana.

----------


## Darkseid Is

If Cena is cast as Shazam I'm done with DC movies.

----------


## Ascended

> If Cena is cast as Shazam I'm done with DC movies.


Just had to do a quick IMDB search, and it doesnt look like he's done many films. And Ive never seen the few he has. 

I'm tempted to take the same stance as you. It just feels like dumb, idiot stunt casting. But I am a huge, massive fan of Dwayne Johnson's acting (Southland Tales and Be Cool, check them out!) so it'd be hypocritical of me to discount the guy just because of his wrestling background. 

The one point in his favor is a facebook video I saw him do a while back talking about the various demographics that make up America. He was articulate, fun, and the video really challenged some basic preconceptions about what the makeup of this nation really looks like. I have no idea how involved he was in the project or if he just accepted a check and read his lines, but it did make me like the guy whereas before I had no opinion of him at all (haven't been into wrestling since Hogan was in his prime). 

In any case I have very little hope for the casting....but then, I have very little hope for DC films in general anyway. But hey, at least we know the guy somewhat looks the part.

I still think Patrick Warburton would be great as Shazam, even if he is about thirty years too old for the part now.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Just had to do a quick IMDB search, and it doesnt look like he's done many films. And Ive never seen the few he has. 
> 
> I'm tempted to take the same stance as you. It just feels like dumb, idiot stunt casting. But I am a huge, massive fan of Dwayne Johnson's acting (Southland Tales and Be Cool, check them out!) so it'd be hypocritical of me to discount the guy just because of his wrestling background. 
> 
> The one point in his favor is a facebook video I saw him do a while back talking about the various demographics that make up America. He was articulate, fun, and the video really challenged some basic preconceptions about what the makeup of this nation really looks like. I have no idea how involved he was in the project or if he just accepted a check and read his lines, but it did make me like the guy whereas before I had no opinion of him at all (haven't been into wrestling since Hogan was in his prime). 
> 
> In any case I have very little hope for the casting....but then, I have very little hope for DC films in general anyway. But hey, at least we know the guy somewhat looks the part.
> 
> I still think Patrick Warburton would be great as Shazam, even if he is about thirty years too old for the part now.


A lot of people like Cena and that's fine. I've always found him to be a very terrible, cringeworthy actor. Like douche chills to the soul.

I'm interested to see The Rock play a villain. I don't remember him playing one before (besides The Mummy 2  :Big Grin:  )

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I think Cena would be great. He was the funniest character in Trainwreck and that was a funny ass movie. He'd kill this part.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Cena simply cannot and will not be Shazam.

----------


## Aioros22

> Cena simply cannot and will not be Shazam.




I`m gonna rap`asong
It`s made of magic
Thunder and Ligthing
1..2..3 you can`t see meeee

----------


## Aioros22

Say it Cena! Say the magic word!

_"YCSM"_

----------


## Bukdiah

> I`m gonna rap`asong
> It`s made of magic
> Thunder and Ligthing
> 1..2..3 you can`t see meeee


lmao my god, I hated Cena so much. His moveset was so limited. I stopped watching wrestling when he became a thing...that Thuganomics schitck was garbage.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> lmao my god, I hated Cena so much. His moveset was so limited. I stopped watching wrestling when he became a thing...that Thuganomics schitck was garbage.


I stopped watching when Cena got popular as well. I liked wrestling a lot when I was younger, the moveset thing never bothered me. I know people bring it up but it doesn't really matter. The thuganomics stuff is something that I can't make myself forget. It's the worst thing I've ever seen. I watch a lot of B-movies and crap and Cena's talent is on level with that kind of stuff. I'll never understand why he's so popular. It's so _fake_... I think it's because some people are the stormtroopers that Obi-wan tells "These aren't the droids you're looking for." The only problem is the smart people who the jedi mind tricks don't work on look like hutts  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rogue Star

I feel blessed to have been a child in the WWF days and a teen in the Monday Night Raw vs WCW Monday Nitro days.  Ahhhh yes~

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Then Stone Cold as Sivana.


I've posted this before but I love this joke. Linda MacMahon as Aunt Minerva... I'd watch it even if Cena was in it if they threw Linda in there hahaha

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I feel blessed to have been a child in the WWF days and a teen in the Monday Night Raw vs WCW Monday Nitro days.  Ahhhh yes~


It really is one of the greatest things that ever happened. So much enjoyment. My only wish is that I was a little bit older to get all the dirty jokes.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I feel blessed to have been a child in the WWF days and a teen in the Monday Night Raw vs WCW Monday Nitro days.  Ahhhh yes~


*Jerry King Lawler voice* PUPPIES!

----------


## Confuzzled

If Cena's cast, then WB should tie up with WWE to have a special charity match where Cena and The Rock fight in their respective DCEU costumes. The amount of publicity it would garner would be amazing, as would be the level of awareness brought to the _Shazam!_ brand.

----------


## Punisher007

> lmao my god, I hated Cena so much. His moveset was so limited. I stopped watching wrestling when he became a thing...that Thuganomics schitck was garbage.


He's actually been really good the last few years.

----------


## Johnny

> lmao my god, I hated Cena so much. His moveset was so limited. I stopped watching wrestling when he became a thing...that Thuganomics schitck was garbage.


The Thuganomics gimmick is what got him over, the super Cena thing was the real garbage. He's been doing much better recently since he's a part-timer and not constantly on top anymore, he actually loses matches now. Today it's Roman's turn to eat shit from fans every week.

----------


## Bukdiah

> The Thuganomics gimmick is what got him over, the super Cena thing was the real garbage. He's been doing much better recently since he's a part-timer and not constantly on top anymore, he actually loses matches now. Today it's Roman's turn to eat shit from fans every week.


Yeah, I just remember the Thuganomics thing being so stupid. Guy was a jacked Vanilla Ice with rhyme schemes reminsicent to "Ditch the zero, get with a hero" level cringe. Sounded like he just found out what slang was and tacked on words to anything. As a Hip Hop head, i was like, "Wow, this is an embarrassment and a hell of an appropriation" lol

I don't watch Wrestling anymore, so I have no idea who's even good. I miss the attitude era as well as the 2000s where I was a teenager. TLC, elimination chamber matches, Hell in the Cells, Hardcore...so damn good. I hear WWE is so damn clean now.

----------


## Frontier

This reminded me how the most I know about wrestling comes from those Scooby-Doo/Wrestlemania movies  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## batnbreakfast

> This reminded me how the most I know about wrestling comes from those Scooby-Doo/Wrestlemania movies .


I never got the appeal of wrestling its a sport with acting (bad acting), soap opera scripting (which muddies a fair fight) and really strangely dressed dudes (Ok that appeals to the comic nerd in me). I liked HHogan's movies, though.

----------


## Styles

Umberto Gonzalez is saying this is fake

----------


## byrd156

> This reminded me how the most I know about wrestling comes from those Scooby-Doo/Wrestlemania movies .


Lol, as someone who grew up watching wrestling I find that to be awesome and hilarious.

----------


## Robotman

Possible _Shazam!_ synopsis released. Don't know how true this is. i really hope it's legit because that means DC/WB is going with the classic Captain Marvel name. I think they realize that fans can simply look up which version of Cap is the original. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/04/s...ovie-synopsis/





> I feel blessed to have been a child in the WWF days and a teen in the Monday Night Raw vs WCW Monday Nitro days.  Ahhhh yes~


Same here. Made my childhood and teen years pretty damn fun.

----------


## Frontier

I'm not sure how much stock I put in the synopsis, but I think it's interesting to note we've seen people involved in the movies and comics still refer to him as Captain Marvel.

----------


## Johnny

> Umberto Gonzalez is saying this is fake


lol The king of fake news refuting scoops. I think I'd reluctantly give him the benefit of the doubt here though, cause this scoop is just so ridiculous.

----------


## Buried Alien

Didn't seem right to start a whole new thread, so I'll start the discussion here:  did anybody else like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE as a movie, but not like the title?  I'm a huge fan of the movie itself, but never warmed to the title they gave it.  The title didn't fit the tone of the movie that was made and released.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Frontier

> Didn't seem right to start a whole new thread, so I'll start the discussion here:  did anybody else like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE as a movie, but not like the title?  I'm a huge fan of the movie itself, but never warmed to the title they gave it.  The title didn't fit the tone of the movie that was made and released.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I like the title for just being so unnecessarily dramatic and Superhero-y, which makes it ripe for parody  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Didn't seem right to start a whole new thread, so I'll start the discussion here:  did anybody else like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE as a movie, but not like the title?  I'm a huge fan of the movie itself, but never warmed to the title they gave it.  The title didn't fit the tone of the movie that was made and released.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I don't love it but it doesn't bother me.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Didn't seem right to start a whole new thread, so I'll start the discussion here:  did anybody else like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE as a movie, but not like the title?  I'm a huge fan of the movie itself, but never warmed to the title they gave it.  The title didn't fit the tone of the movie that was made and released.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Its like two titles. Call it BvS or Dawn but not both. Both titles are crap (not something beautiful like Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil or House of a 1000 Corpses) and don't make me go "Need to watch it" based on title alone

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Should have been two movies:

Batman v Superman, focusing on Bruce and Kal, with maybe an appearance by a Batman villain and Lex as Supes villain. The movie focuses on the struggle and anger (same as BvS) Bruce has towards Clark. Movie ends with them calling Lex's bluff, etc. 

Dawn of Justice would be second part, or its own movie in the MoS trilogy. Intro of Diana, and it's ending probably similar to BvS's ending. At least that way Cavill would have been in a few movies before being sacrificed. 

There ya go.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Didn't seem right to start a whole new thread, so I'll start the discussion here:  did anybody else like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE as a movie, but not like the title?  I'm a huge fan of the movie itself, but never warmed to the title they gave it.  The title didn't fit the tone of the movie that was made and released.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


It was definitely a bit overwrought. No question about it. For one thing, the "Batman vs Superman" part leads the audience to believe that there was going to be some kind of extended conflict between Batman and Superman. Instead, we only get a lot of build-up and a relatively short fight that ultimately wasn't that relevant to the real conflict of the movie. 

I would've just called it "Dawn of Justice" and been done with it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Should have been two movies:
> 
> Batman v Superman, focusing on Bruce and Kal, with maybe an appearance by a Batman villain and Lex as Supes villain. The movie focuses on the struggle and anger (same as BvS) Bruce has towards Clark. Movie ends with them calling Lex's bluff, etc. 
> 
> Dawn of Justice would be second part, or its own movie in the MoS trilogy. Intro of Diana, and it's ending probably similar to BvS's ending. At least that way Cavill would have been in a few movies before being sacrificed. 
> 
> There ya go.


Or? Honestly? This may have been the best way to handle it.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

The original plan was for it to be two movies, which is why the script for BvS is so pointlessly convoluted. It is literally two scripts smooshed together and rewritten to make Ben Affleck happy enough to sign his multi-film contract.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The original plan was for it to be two movies, which is why the script for BvS is so pointlessly convoluted. It is literally two scripts smooshed together and rewritten to make Ben Affleck happy enough to sign his multi-film contract.


Can't be true. The second half of the film is majority action. Would make a very unbalanced pair of two movies.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Can't be true. The second half of the film is majority action. Would make a very unbalanced pair of two movies.


If they were making two separate movies, they would've planned both movies differently. Once they decided they were only making one movie, they planned it accordingly.

----------


## Confuzzled

Star Wars lost yet another director. It's funny how we hear nothing about other franchise developments until they are officially announced. In the DCEU's case, the trades would "report" 19-20 rumors about a person dropping out whether there's a modicum of truth to it or not.

----------


## JediKage

Oh I agree they treat Kathleen Kennedy with kid gloves in the press....

Her record though speaks for itself zero original ideas with the Franchise mining and repackaging Lucas's greatest hits from the OT. But KK was never suppose to be an idea person, she was suppose to be a steady hand on the steering wheel yet Star Wars has no clear outline for a Billion Dollar Trilogy? Apparently no one told RJ anything about where the story needed to go when he got the gig so no wonder CT had creative differences he got the job with no marching orders and when he said something that wasn't like he got his marching orders right out the door. Granted I never though Colin was the man for the job. 

The Record: 
2 Directors Fired Before Filming
1 Pair Fired During Filming
1 Replaced in Reshoots, Post and Editing

This is not a record that needs to be praised. 
Its a record that frankly demands questions be asked about the competence of the leadership at LF.

----------


## Confuzzled

Yeah it looks like Lucasfilm is at a much more unstable place than the DCEU. DCEU only gets it much worse because Zack Snyder films are not everyone's cup of tea and so the weak reviews are used as some form of validation for all the rumor-mongering and gossip.

----------


## JediKage

Look DC made a mistake by backing the wrong horse in Snyder and thinking everything needed to be dark grim and gritty...but it looks like they know how to course correct.

LF needs to do the same and I think its starts by actually having a plan when directors come in or are brought in to pitch their spin.  I mean what is the point of having a whole story group around if they aren't actually even providing a broad outline for the movies.

----------


## Troian

Disney is mostly the ones controlling the reigns from what I've heard which probably explains why directors left because of creative differences. 

Anyways WW now may have lost its Dec 2019 spot because the chances of getting whatever episode 2019 Star Wars was gonna be by May 2019 are looking more silm. But hey who knows?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Look DC made a mistake by backing the wrong horse in Snyder and thinking everything needed to be dark grim and gritty...but it looks like they know how to course correct.
> 
> LF needs to do the same and I think its starts by actually having a plan when directors come in or are brought in to pitch their spin.  I mean what is the point of having a whole story group around if they aren't actually even providing a broad outline for the movies.


I know the Snyder fans will hate me for saying this.  The DCEU will become more successful critically, financially and in general public opinion the more it distances itself from Snyder's vision.   I enjoyed MOS and the BvS EC but even the biggest Snyder fans have to admit that something is going on here.  It isn't just studio interference because  the BvS EC while better than the theatrical cut still suffers from problems that the EC can't edit out.  The extended reshoots are being done because the studio doesn't trust Snyder's vision and they need JL to be a hit.  At the very least it has to change the critical opinions that panned BvS.  Those opinions do influence public opinion regardless of what some stubbornly will claim.  WW is a recent of example of how critical opinion can affect a movie's box office.

----------


## JediKage

Its funny I don't BvS played to Snyder's strength which is action and cinematic fights and shots because the movie was seriously lacking in those qualities especially during the first half.

Point being Snyder has one very particular style and is not suited to be the big ideas guy who is shaping a whole cinematic universe where different styles are required.

----------


## Confuzzled

> *Its funny I don't BvS played to Snyder's strength* which is action and cinematic fights and shots because the movie was seriously lacking in those qualities especially during the first half.
> 
> Point being Snyder has one very particular style and is not suited to be the big ideas guy who is shaping a whole cinematic universe where different styles are required.


It's because Snyder is more obsessed with things that fall _outside_ of his comfort zone. From the interviews he has given over the last few years, it seems he really wants to be an ambitious and compelling storyteller in the vein of Alan Moore and Frank Miller in his prime. But Snyder's strengths are visual compositions and action sequences, skill sets which are closer to the talents of an artist than a writer (broadly speaking here). He thinks he is a Miller who can handle both, but I think his writing can be sketchy (Sucker Punch, that Owl movie), even if the ideas presented are interesting. Of course, Miller himself has sketchy plots and characterizations which have become more apparent now than earlier, so maybe the main problem Snyder has is he's taking inspiration from the wrong source?

I think his films could have worked critically if he had directed screenplays from a superior writer (not David Goyer, and I don't know how much Chris Terrio contributed to the BvS script to know for sure how adaptable he is to the superhero genre). It's for that reason I'm interested in seeing how much Joss Whedon (who is definitely more of a "writer-director" than Snyder) has contributed to JL, and in what capacity. And whether it can compliment and enhance Snyder's own work and craft.

----------


## JediKage

So basically Snyder wants to prove he is great instead of being Bay and sticking to what he is good at...makes sense.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So basically Snyder wants to prove he is great instead of being Bay and sticking to what he is good at...makes sense.


Well, I'll take a million Snyders over one Bay. Snyder's execution may not be brilliant but I find his core ideas to be interesting. And at least he _tries_ to get out of his comfort zone. Bay is just a cynical businessman who is content with producing lowest common denominator fare.

And of course, Snyder is head and shoulders compared to Bay when it comes to behind the scenes stuff with how Bay exploits his actresses and appears to be just a nasty piece of work in general. As opposed to Snyder who seems to be well-liked by his colleagues.

----------


## Carabas

> Can't be true. The second half of the film is majority action. Would make a very unbalanced pair of two movies.


One would assume that a great deal of action has been removed from the first half.

Alternatively, balance really isn't what Snyder movies do.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Eh like others said, it's just slow news day. I wanted to make fun of WB that even some adult movie studio seems to care more about GL than they do.


Oops my bad, apologies Johnny, I thought it was mentioned for another reason. I should've read the comments carefully  :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

> Look DC made a mistake by backing the wrong horse in Snyder and thinking everything needed to be dark grim and gritty...but it looks like they know how to course correct.
> 
> LF needs to do the same and I think its starts by actually having a plan when directors come in or are brought in to pitch their spin.  I mean what is the point of having a whole story group around if they aren't actually even providing a broad outline for the movies.


There were numerous interviews before BvS' release that said BvS was as dark as it would get. Only two DC movies can be called dark and even then how dark they are is greatly exaggerated.

I also love how everyone complains about Snyder being too dark while hoping Whedon can "course correct". Whedon who is mostly known for psychologically destroying his characters because he thinks it makes them better.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Didn't seem right to start a whole new thread, so I'll start the discussion here:  did anybody else like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE as a movie, but not like the title?  I'm a huge fan of the movie itself, but never warmed to the title they gave it.  The title didn't fit the tone of the movie that was made and released.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Batman Vs. Superman would have been a fine title. Is there a reason behind using V instead of Vs?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Batman Vs. Superman would have been a fine title. Is there a reason behind using V instead of Vs?


ZS said "v" represented a more ideological battle like the "v." in court cases. As opposed to "vs." which specifically represents smack downs and play-offs i.e. just something more physical.

----------


## JediKage

And then proceeded to bungle said ideological battle.

----------


## Confuzzled

> And then proceeded to bungle said ideological battle.


It was okay.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

The disagreement between Superman and Batman doesn't really play because the theatrical cut utterly fails to show Superman's side of the argument and the director's cut fails to have him articulate his problem with Batman in any convincing way. Batman has become demonstrably more violent and blood thirsty, but Superman doesn't really do anything about it aside from wrecking the Batmobile and telling him to retire without doing _anything_  about the machine gun toting bad guys Batman was chasing. Had he captured them all without maiming, torturing or blowing them up, maybe he'd have a point. However, he doesn't do that. He just totals Batman's car, threatens him and flies off. Not exactly a very convincing way of getting your point across or a particularly Superman way of dealing with the situation either.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> ZS said "v" represented a more ideological battle like the "v." in court cases. As opposed to "vs." which specifically represents smack downs and play-offs i.e. just something more physical.


Still so gimmicky. Was not the approach for our first ever Superman/Batman film.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Still so gimmicky. Was not the approach for our first ever Superman/Batman film.


Well, a Superman/Batman crossover is a gimmick by its very nature. Just be glad we weren't overrun by the zombie apocalypse on its release like in the _I Am Legend_ universe.

----------


## Agent Z

> The disagreement between Superman and Batman doesn't really play because the theatrical cut utterly fails to show Superman's side of the argument and the director's cut fails to have him articulate his problem with Batman in any convincing way. Batman has become demonstrably more violent and blood thirsty, but Superman doesn't really do anything about it aside from wrecking the Batmobile and telling him to retire without doing _anything_  about the machine gun toting bad guys Batman was chasing. Had he captured them all without maiming, torturing or blowing them up, maybe he'd have a point. However, he doesn't do that. He just totals Batman's car, threatens him and flies off. Not exactly a very convincing way of getting your point across or a particularly Superman way of dealing with the situation either.


He doesn't do anything about them because all he knows is that they were attacked by a lunatic in a bat costume at night. The weapons can be excused as them needing something to defend themselves in a crime ridden hell hole like Gotham. The director's cut also has Clark arguing that Bruce is only going after lower income people and he even has a conversation with a family member of one of Bruce's victims.

----------


## Rogue Star

> He doesn't do anything about them because all he knows is that they were attacked by a lunatic in a bat costume at night. The weapons can be excused as them needing something to defend themselves in a crime ridden hell hole like Gotham. The director's cut also has Clark arguing that Bruce is only going after lower income people and he even has a conversation with a family member of one of Bruce's victims.


That's got to be the poorest excuse for Superman not taking down a bunch of guys who were committing a number of crimes while fleeing a known vigilante.  I'm sure it would have occurred to Superman that they would've called 9-1-1 if they were indeed innocent.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> He doesn't do anything about them because all he knows is that they were attacked by a lunatic in a bat costume at night. The weapons can be excused as them needing something to defend themselves in a crime ridden hell hole like Gotham. The director's cut also has Clark arguing that Bruce is only going after lower income people and he even has a conversation with a family member of one of Bruce's victims.


They had heavy machine guns mounted on trucks shooting up the entire neighborhood. Are you seriously trying to say that Superman should have given the benefit of the doubt to these obviously shady characters transporting something illicit under the cover of night. Unless you are claiming that the DCEU Superman is hopelessly naive chump, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Poor people being oppressed by a crazed vigilante can't afford heavy munitions, a semi-truck, and a fleet of smaller trucks to defend it--criminals do.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> That's got to be the poorest excuse for Superman not taking down a bunch of guys who were committing a number of crimes while fleeing a known vigilante.  I'm sure it would have occurred to Superman that they would've called 9-1-1 if they were indeed innocent.


You caught the part where Clark made it clear that it looked like the GCPD were actually HELPING the Bat Vigilante, right? No, if you're under attack by him, you don't call the cops because you have no reason to believe they'll help. 

And what crimes were they committing? Shooting back at a maniac who was trying to shoot them and run them off the road? 




> They had heavy machine guns mounted on trucks shooting up the entire neighborhood. Are you seriously trying to say that Superman should have given the benefit of the doubt to these obviously shady characters transporting something illicit under the cover of night. Unless you are claiming that the DCEU Superman is hopelessly naive chump, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Poor people being oppressed by a crazed vigilante can't afford heavy munitions, a semi-truck, and a fleet of smaller trucks to defend it--criminals do.


Evidence that what they were transporting was illegal? Plenty of rich people and corporations try to discretely import important items. An argument could be made that they were transporting some new corporate secret for LexCorp and they feared corporate sabotage and/or a sudden assault by a psychopath in a bat suit. Hence? The heavy security. 

There is no evidence that Batman was even slightly heroic. He was a criminal attacking a group of people who knew to expect an attack by him. Maybe they were other criminals, or maybe they were security contractors protecting a discrete shipment. Bottom line is? They didn't start shooting up the city until the Bat showed up and started trying to murder them. THEY were not the instigators of this conflict. The Bat was.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> They had heavy machine guns mounted on trucks shooting up the entire neighborhood. Are you seriously trying to say that Superman should have given the benefit of the doubt to these obviously shady characters transporting something illicit under the cover of night. Unless you are claiming that the DCEU Superman is hopelessly naive chump, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Poor people being oppressed by a crazed vigilante can't afford heavy munitions, a semi-truck, and a fleet of smaller trucks to defend it--criminals do.


I think Batman had blown up the machine gun by the time Superman showed up. Can't remember if that happens. 

Either way i's fair to say he should have apprehended them, but I think if all Superman hears is gunfire and sees Batman is involved, it's not unreasonable to think he prioritizes giving Batman his ultimatum. Those other criminals, may they be smugglers or drug dealers or worse, can and probably will be caught later. But Batman is one very capable person with a symbol behind him and who considers himself above the law.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> You caught the part where Clark made it clear that it looked like the GCPD were actually HELPING the Bat Vigilante, right? No, if you're under attack by him, you don't call the cops because you have no reason to believe they'll help. 
> 
> And what crimes were they committing? Shooting back at a maniac who was trying to shoot them and run them off the road? 
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence that what they were transporting was illegal? Plenty of rich people and corporations try to discretely import important items. An argument could be made that they were transporting some new corporate secret for LexCorp and they feared corporate sabotage and/or a sudden assault by a psychopath in a bat suit. Hence? The heavy security. 
> 
> There is no evidence that Batman was even slightly heroic. He was a criminal attacking a group of people who knew to expect an attack by him. Maybe they were other criminals, or maybe they were security contractors protecting a discrete shipment. Bottom line is? They didn't start shooting up the city until the Bat showed up and started trying to murder them. THEY were not the instigators of this conflict. The Bat was.


Definitely plausible. Superman doesn't have to be totally right to be acting reasonable within the parameters of his impressions.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> ZS said "v" represented a more ideological battle like the "v." in court cases. As opposed to "vs." which specifically represents smack downs and play-offs i.e. just something more physical.


The extended cut definitely makes more sense of this and why the actual fight happens 2hrs in. The actual fight wasn't meant to be the point it was just secondary but in theatrical they definitely played it up and rushed everything towards it. 

Another reason why the theatrical is hot garbage.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Definitely plausible. Superman doesn't have to be totally right to be acting reasonable within the parameters of his impressions.


Plausible. But Superman is a fool to let those guys off completely. He could have trailed them, checked if they were not bad guys with nefarious plans. What if they were carrying bombs? Is he so busy to not even check the guys. They are armed and maybe criminal.

----------


## Agent Z

> Plausible. But Superman is a fool to let those guys off completely. He could have trailed them, checked if they were not bad guys with nefarious plans. What if they were carrying bombs? Is he so busy to not even check the guys. They are armed and maybe criminal.


Last I checked Superman doesn't trail every person he saves to see if they're a criminal

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Plausible. But Superman is a fool to let those guys off completely. He could have trailed them, checked if they were not bad guys with nefarious plans. What if they were carrying bombs? Is he so busy to not even check the guys. They are armed and maybe criminal.


For all we know he did just that. And he would've tracked them to a LexCorp facility, wherein they handed off a box to Lex Luthor: a legitimate (if strange) businessman whom Clark just saw attending a charity ball. Even if he X-rayed the area? We know Lex knew about using lead to block his vision. (Well we know that thanks to the Extended Cut, anyway.) Easy enough to say the box was lined with lead. And even if it wasn't lined with lead, Superman wouldn't know what was up with that glowy rock anyway. Not unless he got close enough to it to be affected by it.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Batman Vs. Superman would have been a fine title. Is there a reason behind using V instead of Vs?





> ZS said "v" represented a more ideological battle like the "v." in court cases. As opposed to "vs." which specifically represents smack downs and play-offs i.e. just something more physical.


Either way, I got the same impression...the title with V./VS. emphasized the confrontation too much.  When I see a "V./VS." in a movie title, I can't help but think of movies such as KING KONG VS. GODZILLA (or a half dozen other Godzilla movies from the 1960s and 1970s) or fare such as ALIEN VS. PREDATOR or FREDDY VS. JASON...where the whole point of the film is simply to get two characters into a fight without any serious attempt to tell a story and both the filmmakers and audience know it (and are in on the joke).  BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE wasn't meant to be that kind of movie.  We can debate the extent to which the movie succeeded in telling its story, but it was clearly at least trying to tell one and not just be a slugfest between the two title characters.  Had the movie been titled BATMAN _AND_ SUPERMAN:  DAWN OF JUSTICE, it would have still been rather unwieldy, but I think it would have at least fit the tone of the movie better.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Carabas

If Superman had given them a closer look he'd have noticed that their cargo was shielded from his eyes. Suspicious.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> If Superman had given them a closer look he'd have noticed that their cargo was shielded from his eyes. Suspicious.


Plenty of perfectly legal items come in shielded containers. It's just lead, after all.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Last I checked Superman doesn't trail every person he saves to see if they're a criminal


Gotham Police was not against Batman and supported his work. (Bat-signal) But they are police. Not criminals themselves. He pointed out that civil liberties are being trampled. A vigilante who acted as judge, jury and executioner. So there is a definite possibility that he was chasing criminals just by the fact that Batman is a vigilante.

He flies away after warning Batman. So it was implied that he let them go. If he was not foolish, he was disinterested or lazy or incompetent.
Vanguard-01 made a good point. I think this is what really happened. But the film did not show him. Apart from that montage over news and the final fight with Doomsday it appeared as if he was interested in saving particularly Lois.But others not so much. Stress on appeared not in real.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Last I checked Superman doesn't trail every person he saves to see if they're a criminal


Gotham Police was not against Batman and supported his work. (Bat-signal) But they are police. Not criminals themselves. He pointed out that civil liberties are being trampled. A vigilante who acted as judge, jury and executioner. So there is a definite possibility that he was chasing criminals just by the fact that Batman is a vigilante.

He flies away after warning Batman. So it was implied that he let them go. If he was not foolish, he was disinterested or lazy or incompetent.
Vanguard-01 made a good point. I think this is what really happened. But the film did not show him. Apart from that montage over news and the final fight with Doomsday it appeared as if he was interested in saving particularly Lois.But others not so much. Stress on appeared not in real.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Either way, I got the same impression...the title with V./VS. emphasized the confrontation too much.  When I see a "V./VS." in a movie title, I can't help but think of movies such as KING KONG VS. GODZILLA (or a half dozen other Godzilla movies from the 1960s and 1970s) or fare such as ALIEN VS. PREDATOR or FREDDY VS. JASON...where the whole point of the film is simply to get two characters into a fight without any serious attempt to tell a story and both the filmmakers and audience know it (and are in on the joke).  BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE wasn't meant to be that kind of movie.  We can debate the extent to which the movie succeeded in telling its story, but it was clearly at least trying to tell one and not just be a slugfest between the two title characters.  Had the movie been titled BATMAN _AND_ SUPERMAN:  DAWN OF JUSTICE, it would have still been rather unwieldy, but I think it would have at least fit the tone of the movie better.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I did find it weird so many people thought their fight and conflict would be the only principal point of the movie, you'd have to be a little ignorant or naive to think they'd spend the whole time fighting or functioning as enemies...but the title definitely didn't help in that regard.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Evidence that what they were transporting was illegal? Plenty of rich people and corporations try to discretely import important items. An argument could be made that they were transporting some new corporate secret for LexCorp and they feared corporate sabotage and/or a sudden assault by a psychopath in a bat suit. Hence? The heavy security. 
> 
> There is no evidence that Batman was even slightly heroic. He was a criminal attacking a group of people who knew to expect an attack by him. Maybe they were other criminals, or maybe they were security contractors protecting a discrete shipment. Bottom line is? They didn't start shooting up the city until the Bat showed up and started trying to murder them. THEY were not the instigators of this conflict. The Bat was.


So, Superman is suddenly giving the benefit of the doubt to the rich, corporations and mercenaries transporting something at night, armed with heavy machine guns and he's not the least bit curious why a vigilante with a _two decade_ long history of fighting crime is after them? Wasn't Superman's problem with Batman that he was trampling the rights of poor people and had begun going too far by literally branding them with his symbol, leading their executions in prison? How does that equate turning a blind eye to the reckless actions of the wealthy because he thinks Batman is worse?

He's got X-Ray vision. You are telling me he's not going to take a second to check out the semi-truck that the crazed vigilante and the mercenaries he's been chasing shot up an entire neighborhood for? Again, he's Superman. He's supposed to think about stuff like that. 

As much as I think the extended cut fixed a lot of the problems with BvS, that scene sticks out like a sore thumb for how tone deaf it is towards Superman. Yes, it's cool to see the Batmobile bounce off Superman like it's a toy and him tear the roof off like tissue paper, but that doesn't excuse the writers for not actually thinking through what kind of hero Superman is and writing him accordingly.

Even if I were to accept the premise that the DCEU's Superman is not _that_ Superman yet, we've already seen him destroy drones *twice*, at the cost of several million dollars each, so it's not like this guy isn't suspicious of authority. If he's unwilling to give the U.S. government the benefit of the doubt, why on Earth would he be willing to do so for a bunch of mercenaries?

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

Really, you could have had the same scene play out exactly the same, but simply given Superman a reason for flying off without checking on the semi-truck, like hearing somebody who needed saving who _wasn't_ Lois Lane for once  :Wink:

----------


## Agent Z

> Gotham Police was not against Batman and supported his work. (Bat-signal)


The GCPD is infamous for being corrupt and incompetent. Them supporting Batman does not mean anything.




> But they are police. Not criminals themselves. He pointed out that civil liberties are being trampled. A vigilante who acted as judge, jury and executioner. So there is a definite possibility that he was chasing criminals just by the fact that Batman is a vigilante.


Not everyone a vigilante targets is a criminal. Vigilantes go after people who piss them off personally not regardless of whether or not said people have done anything wrong in the eyes of the law.




> But they are police. He flies away after warning Batman. So it was implied that he let them go.


He let them go because as far as he knew these people had done nothing wrong. 




> Vanguard-01 made a good point. I think this is what really happened. But the film did not show him. Apart from that montage over news and the final fight with Doomsday it appeared as if he was interested in saving particularly Lois. But others not so much. Stress on appeared not in real.


Yeah and if I ignore all other instances of other versions of Superman saving other people, I’d get the idea he only cares about Lois too. What exactly is your point? There is nothing in this movie or the previous one to imply Lois is the only person he cares for. It will only appear that way to you if you are seriously biased and not paying attention to the film. Hell, his crusade against Batman has zero to do with Lois.

----------


## Punisher007

Exactly.  Batman being a long-established vigilante should have made Superman MORE suspicious of the people that he was chasing.  Because his problem is Batman trampling on civil liberties, not that he doesn't go after criminals.

It's really easy to fix.  Either give him some reason to need to fly off quickly (as mentioned above), or have him tell Batman "you stay out of this, I'll look into it myself."  Boom done, and Supes doesn't look like a careless fool.

You can make excuses all you want, but it's just sloppy writing.

And that's a problem with the film as a whole for me.  Stuff could have worked, or could have made sense, if they'd actually bothered to explain it properly, or structured things better.

----------


## Agent Z

> So, Superman is suddenly giving the benefit of the doubt to the rich, corporations and mercenaries transporting something at night, armed with heavy machine guns and he's not the least bit curious why a vigilante with a _two decade_ long history of fighting crime is after them? Wasn't Superman's problem with Batman that he was trampling the rights of poor people and had begun going too far by literally branding them with his symbol, leading their executions in prison? How does that equate turning a blind eye to the reckless actions of the wealthy because he thinks Batman is worse?


They weren’t the ones being reckless. Batman was. He was the one who instigated the battle. Not the mercenaries.




> He's got X-Ray vision. You are telling me he's not going to take a second to check out the semi-truck that the crazed vigilante and the mercenaries he's been chasing shot up an entire neighborhood for? Again, he's Superman. He's supposed to think about stuff like that.


You’re giving Superman way too much credit. The only time he’s ever suspicious of somebody is if it’s Luthor or a new popular superhero.




> Even if I were to accept the premise that the DCEU's Superman is not _that_ Superman yet, we've already seen him destroy drones *twice*, at the cost of several million dollars each, so it's not like this guy isn't suspicious of authority. If he's unwilling to give the U.S. government the benefit of the doubt, why on Earth would he be willing to do so for a bunch of mercenaries?


What are you talking about? He’s only destroyed one drone and that was because it was spying on him. And who said he didn’t trust them? He worked with them in MoS.

----------


## Soubhagya

Sorry for posting twice. I was a bit sleepy and there was a problem with internet connection. Okay, what i was saying is that maybe it was a lapse from writer's side but the fact that everytime Lois' life is in danger Superman is around. But not in other places when needed. A casual viewer can make an assumption like this. Even Martha was kidnapped and tortured. But he was not around. A viewer who has seen the film once can make the assumption that Superman does not like his job of helping people. He only saves Lois.

Of course it is erroneous but this is not helped by that above scene where he simply flies away after trashing the Batmobile. There is simply too less Superman even in Ultimate Cut what to speak of Theatrical one. Just a few changes here and there could have brought more balance. From what i see the film should be named "Batman with Superman In A Supporting Role" when released in theatres. Ultimate version name was more appropriate.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I have to say that while I think ideally Superman looks further into the mercenaries Batman is chasing, I think he's allowed to make the mistake of being a bit blind-sided and prioritizing Batman over some armed thugs for several reasons. 

One is that Superman's approach to heroism in these films is basically an emergency savior. If he hears about someone in immediate danger, he races towards it. We haven't seen him try and take down sinister organizations in an overly involved and investigative manner, and probably with good reason given how some the world is receiving his presence. Which brings me to my next point:

Batman is the story that he's being told he _can't_ tell. The news won't cover it, Perry won't let him touch it, and he's seen the effects in an intimate matter. That journalistic bug that also drives Lois when she smells a juicy untold story no doubt compounds Clark's compulsion to do good. So when he shows up and decides to confront Batman, he feels it's more important to make his point than to follow up whatever nefarious dealings the people Batman was after may or may not be up to. Crime in Gotham happens all the time and Superman can't stop all of it. These men can feasibly be caught later, and even if he apprehends them now, whatever operation they have will probably spring up again in a different form. But Batman? That man is drunk on power and dangerous. And Superman is saying to himself, only I can do something about it. 

So again, it's not ideal for him to just let those men go. But I think it's a reasonable mistake he's allowed to make given his motives and the events leading up to their confrontation.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So, Superman is suddenly giving the benefit of the doubt to the rich, corporations and mercenaries transporting something at night, armed with heavy machine guns and he's not the least bit curious why a vigilante with a _two decade_ long history of fighting crime is after them? Wasn't Superman's problem with Batman that he was trampling the rights of poor people and had begun going too far by literally branding them with his symbol, leading their executions in prison? How does that equate turning a blind eye to the reckless actions of the wealthy because he thinks Batman is worse?


1.) Bruce's experience as a vigilante means nothing in this scenario. HE was the one who attached that truck first. HE endangered people first. HE was the one behaving recklessly. 

2.) If Batman's been killing people for twenty years, then that doesn't say much about him either. Admittedly, we don't know how long it's been since he started using lethal force. But still. 

3.) Past heroics mean nothing. Superman saw Batman turning into a murderer who recklessly attacks people in the middle of a major city. He's supposedly setting people up to be murdered in prison. If he was a hero in the past, it sure looks like he isn't one anymore. 




> He's got X-Ray vision. You are telling me he's not going to take a second to check out the semi-truck that the crazed vigilante and the mercenaries he's been chasing shot up an entire neighborhood for? Again, he's Superman. He's supposed to think about stuff like that.


Lead defeats X-Ray vision. All he would do is detect a box through which he can't see. Hardly hard evidence of wrongdoing. And even if it piques his interest? What's he going to do? Join Batman in attacking those guys, grab the box, and rip it open? And if it turned out to be nothing? Yay! Superman's a bully who randomly attacks people who were just doing their jobs and steals property if it suits his fancy. Great way to show what a great hero he is. 




> As much as I think the extended cut fixed a lot of the problems with BvS, that scene sticks out like a sore thumb for how tone deaf it is towards Superman. Yes, it's cool to see the Batmobile bounce off Superman like it's a toy and him tear the roof off like tissue paper, but that doesn't excuse the writers for not actually thinking through what kind of hero Superman is and writing him accordingly.


He's the kind of hero who sets his sights on a given target and pursues it with determination. Batman was the target. Not a group of guys who, as far as he can tell, were merely defending themselves against a deranged man who was shooting up an entire neighborhood with no apparent regard for anyone's safety. 




> Even if I were to accept the premise that the DCEU's Superman is not _that_ Superman yet, we've already seen him destroy drones *twice*, at the cost of several million dollars each, so it's not like this guy isn't suspicious of authority. If he's unwilling to give the U.S. government the benefit of the doubt, why on Earth would he be willing to do so for a bunch of mercenaries?


For all you know, he DID follow up on them. That probably means X-raying the building. Surprise! He found nothing! What's he supposed to do at that point? Rip the entire building apart looking for anything suspicious? Great way to show the people of Earth that he's not some thug with a god-complex.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*‘Suicide Squad 2’: Gavin O’Connor to Write and Direct Sequel*




> Gavin O’Connor is on board to write the sequel to “Suicide Squad,” and is also in talks to direct the film that stars Will Smith, Margot Robbie, and Jared Leto.
> 
> The movie is a top priority at Warner Bros. and looks to be one of the two DC properties (the other being New Line’s “Shazam!”) to begin production this year. Given the ensemble’s busy schedule, the shoot wasn’t expected to start until fall of 2017. So while there’s still time, the studio is eager to get someone on board to pen a script.
> 
> Following the news that David Ayer, who directed the first movie, would not be back, the open directing job has been one of the biz’s most highly-touted gigs.
> 
> Ayer directed the last supervillain tentpole, which was a huge hit for Warners — despite earning negative reviews — bringing in more then $745 million worldwide.
> 
> O’Connor was already on a shortlist that included filmmakers Jaume Collet-Serra and Mel Gibson, both of whom were considered the studio’s prime targets before they decided to tackle other projects. O’Connor has always seemed like a logical choice, given his history with the studio. He most recently directed the action-drama “The Accountant,” which Warner Bros. is already developing a sequel for. O’Connor is set to return to direct and Ben Affleck will be back to star.


Source

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I suppose the biggest question about SS2 is whether or not O'Connor is planning on keeping the visual aesthetic as well as roster that Ayer established.

----------


## Frontier

> I suppose the biggest question about SS2 is whether or not O'Connor is planning on keeping the visual aesthetic as well as roster that Ayer established.


I mean, if any team should have a fluid roster it should be the Suicide Squad, but given only two members died in the last movie I wouldn't be surprised if we only get a few new additions unless they want to just drop some people. 

But Harley and Deadshot are definitely going to be in there.

----------


## Ascended

Harley and Deadshot are a shoe-in for sure. Flag is most likely returning. I think Boomerang *might* make it back in, but wouldn't be totally surprised if he didn't. Katana I'd give 50/50 odds; she didn't do much the first time out but there was some stuff set up to explore down the line. Croc's probably not gonna be back, and if he does return it'll be as canon fodder and he'll get killed off quick, just like Slipknot was. 

I'm betting we get Vixen and Bronze Tiger in the sequel.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

O'Connor seems like an uninspired choice.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> They weren’t the ones being reckless. Batman was. He was the one who instigated the battle. Not the mercenaries.


Waitaminit, so now Superman was watching the whole thing from afar, but didn't step in until after at least a half dozen people were killed?




> You’re giving Superman way too much credit. The only time he’s ever suspicious of somebody is if it’s Luthor or a new popular superhero.


I tend to give a lot of credit to characters called Superman, yes. However, I will grant you that the DCEU is deliberately taking their time here, but that doesn't make the character look particularly good or make you want to root for him, which is something BvS struggled with, particularly in the theatrical cut.




> What are you talking about? He’s only destroyed one drone and that was because it was spying on him. And who said he didn’t trust them? He worked with them in MoS.


Superman destroys a US drone twice. Once at the end of MoS and again at the start of BvS during the attack in Africa.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> I have to say that while I think ideally Superman looks further into the mercenaries Batman is chasing, I think he's allowed to make the mistake of being a bit blind-sided and prioritizing Batman over some armed thugs for several reasons. 
> 
> One is that Superman's approach to heroism in these films is basically an emergency savior. If he hears about someone in immediate danger, he races towards it. We haven't seen him try and take down sinister organizations in an overly involved and investigative manner, and probably with good reason given how some the world is receiving his presence. Which brings me to my next point:
> 
> Batman is the story that he's being told he _can't_ tell. The news won't cover it, Perry won't let him touch it, and he's seen the effects in an intimate matter. That journalistic bug that also drives Lois when she smells a juicy untold story no doubt compounds Clark's compulsion to do good. So when he shows up and decides to confront Batman, he feels it's more important to make his point than to follow up whatever nefarious dealings the people Batman was after may or may not be up to. Crime in Gotham happens all the time and Superman can't stop all of it. These men can feasibly be caught later, and even if he apprehends them now, whatever operation they have will probably spring up again in a different form. But Batman? That man is drunk on power and dangerous. And Superman is saying to himself, only I can do something about it. 
> 
> So again, it's not ideal for him to just let those men go. But I think it's a reasonable mistake he's allowed to make given his motives and the events leading up to their confrontation.


If they had articulated Superman's point of view better, I would be fine with Superman flying off at that point, but given how under-served he is by the entire film, that scene really sticks out for how poorly it represents what Superman is all about.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> 1.) Bruce's experience as a vigilante means nothing in this scenario. HE was the one who attached that truck first. HE endangered people first. HE was the one behaving recklessly.


So, Superman was watching the entire battle from the beginning and allowed all those people to be killed and did nothing about it? Because, unless he was, he would not know who started what or what the situation was. Both sides were firing heavy machine guys into the neighborhood. Batman was absolutely in the wrong, and so were the mercenaries shooting at him. One of them has a two decade-long history of fighting criminals (brutally, yes, and now lethally). He had no idea who the other guys were, but _right before_ Superman stood in front of the Batmobile, the guys in the semi had shot a freaking Surface to Air Missile out of the back of the truck. And you _still_ think Superman shouldn't have been at least concerned about who the crazy vigilante was after?




> 2.) If Batman's been killing people for twenty years, then that doesn't say much about him either. Admittedly, we don't know how long it's been since he started using lethal force. But still.


I think the movie makes it pretty clear during the first scene with Alfred & Bruce that this is a very recent change in his methods. 




> 3.) Past heroics mean nothing. Superman saw Batman turning into a murderer who recklessly attacks people in the middle of a major city. He's supposedly setting people up to be murdered in prison. If he was a hero in the past, it sure looks like he isn't one anymore.


Agreed. However, that doesn't make the guys he's chasing good people, who should be able to get away without any follow-up. Clark had absolutely no reason to think that Batman was the kind of person who was brutalizing and executing innocent people simply defending themselves.




> Lead defeats X-Ray vision. All he would do is detect a box through which he can't see. Hardly hard evidence of wrongdoing. And even if it piques his interest? What's he going to do? Join Batman in attacking those guys, grab the box, and rip it open? And if it turned out to be nothing? Yay! Superman's a bully who randomly attacks people who were just doing their jobs and steals property if it suits his fancy. Great way to show what a great hero he is.


Those are his only two options?! That's how Superman would deal with a car chase involving heavy munitions on both sides? People armed with that kind of hardware are not transporting anything legal, unless they are some secret Black Ops team working undercover. And, as we saw during the Africa sequence, Superman had absolutely no problem with destroying a US military drone because it would have killed the people in the village. This Superman is demonstrably not the kind of hero who blindly trusts the military. The fact that whatever they were transporting was concealed in lead so he couldn't see what it was should have raised some red flags for him. 




> He's the kind of hero who sets his sights on a given target and pursues it with determination. Batman was the target. Not a group of guys who, as far as he can tell, were merely defending themselves against a deranged man who was shooting up an entire neighborhood with no apparent regard for anyone's safety.


Merely defending themselves with chain guns and SAM rockets? Come on... Look, we both are obviously big Superman fans. I think Cavill's Superman is great, but this is not really a defensible argument you guys are making. The scene plainly doesn't make sense given who Superman is.




> For all you know, he DID follow up on them. That probably means X-raying the building. Surprise! He found nothing! What's he supposed to do at that point? Rip the entire building apart looking for anything suspicious? Great way to show the people of Earth that he's not some thug with a god-complex.


And that would have been a better way to handle that scene. It would have shown that Superman wasn't so single-minded in his pursuit of Batman that he'd just ignore the heavily-armed mercs he was chasing, and would further Luthor's manipulations to portray Superman as a danger to the world.

Or they could have handled it any number of other ways.  The point is, having Superman fly off after threatening Batman without bothering with the mercs doesn't paint him in a particularly heroic, or intelligent, light. Superman is not dumb. Superman does not ignore guys shooting off SAM missles in the middle of a poor neighborhood because it'd be cooler to just fly off after threatening the crazy Bat-vigilante chasing them. That doesn't make any sense if the character is named Superman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So, Superman was watching the entire battle from the beginning and allowed all those people to be killed and did nothing about it? Because, unless he was, he would not know who started what or what the situation was. Both sides were firing heavy machine guys into the neighborhood. Batman was absolutely in the wrong, and so were the mercenaries shooting at him. One of them has a two decade-long history of fighting criminals (brutally, yes, and now lethally). He had no idea who the other guys were, but _right before_ Superman stood in front of the Batmobile, the guys in the semi had shot a freaking Surface to Air Missile out of the back of the truck. And you _still_ think Superman shouldn't have been at least concerned about who the crazy vigilante was after?


Sometimes, just jumping into the fray isn't the best way to stop a conflict. Sometimes picking a specific intervention point in order to maximize your effectiveness is the smarter strategy. If flies down and attacks Batman wile he's near an apartment complex, for example? One wrong move and the Batmobile crashes right into a populated building. I thought we wanted to see Superman NOT accidentally knocking over buildings moving forward? 

We have no idea how complete Clark's knowledge of the Bat vigilante is. It's quite possible he's only researched his recent activities. It's also possible that Batman kept his activities secret for a good bit of his career. WE know he has decades of experience. Clark may very well not have. All he knew was that this guy is brutally beating poor, disadvantaged people and setting himself up as their judge, jury, and executioner. 




> Agreed. However, that doesn't make the guys he's chasing good people, who should be able to get away without any follow-up. Clark had absolutely no reason to think that Batman was the kind of person who was brutalizing and executing innocent people simply defending themselves.


Yes he DID have such reason because he had information that says that Batman was doing EXACTLY that. 




> Those are his only two options?! That's how Superman would deal with a car chase involving heavy munitions on both sides? People armed with that kind of hardware are not transporting anything legal, unless they are some secret Black Ops team working undercover. And, as we saw during the Africa sequence, Superman had absolutely no problem with destroying a US military drone because it would have killed the people in the village. This Superman is demonstrably not the kind of hero who blindly trusts the military. The fact that whatever they were transporting was concealed in lead so he couldn't see what it was should have raised some red flags for him.


People armed with that kind of hardware could absolutely be transporting something lethal. The fact that they were attacked by someone with sufficient firepower to JUSTIFY that kind of ordinance makes them look like they expected this level of trouble and wisely prepared for it. Corporations use security contractors all the time if they deem it appropriate to protect one of their assets. 

And the box wasn't necessarily used to prevent HIM from seeing it. The box was lined with lead. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for using a lead-lined container that have nothing to do with preventing Superman from seeing what's inside. Case in point? Radioactive material. Another reason to focus on Batman and not the mercs: if Superman knew the box was lead-lined, he may have assumed it was radioactive material and yet here's the Gotham Bat, blazing away at it with high-powered ordinance. If that box was compromised, he could've irradiated the whole area. 

It should also be pointed out that Superman's inability to see through lead did not seem to be common knowledge. The lab tech girl who told Lois about the lead lining in the wheelchair bomb absolutely did not make the connection between lead and stopping Superman's X-ray vision. Lois did, and that's how she knew that the bomb was part of an effort to prevent Superman from stopping it. 




> Merely defending themselves with chain guns and SAM rockets? Come on... Look, we both are obviously big Superman fans. I think Cavill's Superman is great, but this is not really a defensible argument you guys are making. The scene plainly doesn't make sense given who Superman is.


If they're security contractors, they can pretty much use any ordinance they see fit to protect their charge. Since they were attacked by an enemy that merited such extreme measures? Well there you go. Their job was to protect their cargo and they foresaw that they might need a little more than handguns and rifles to do the job. Turned out they were right, too. 




> And that would have been a better way to handle that scene. It would have shown that Superman wasn't so single-minded in his pursuit of Batman that he'd just ignore the heavily-armed mercs he was chasing, and would further Luthor's manipulations to portray Superman as a danger to the world.


It would've shown Superman hovering above a building for a few seconds, squinting really hard at it, determining that there was nothing of interest there, and then going home. In a movie already accused of being slow-paced and boring? Not so exciting. 




> Or they could have handled it any number of other ways.  The point is, having Superman fly off after threatening Batman without bothering with the mercs doesn't paint him in a particularly heroic, or intelligent, light. Superman is not dumb. Superman does not ignore guys shooting off SAM missles in the middle of a poor neighborhood because it'd be cooler to just fly off after threatening the crazy Bat-vigilante chasing them. That doesn't make any sense if the character is named Superman.


If those guys continued to shoot up the neighborhood after Superman stopped Batman, that would probably justify pursuing them. But they didn't. They ceased fire as soon as they were no longer being pursued, which lends credence to the "defending their cargo" defense. 

It's not "dumb" for Superman to neutralize what he believed to be the true threat first. Once the mercs were gone, there was no further danger. He had no reason to go after them. If they were up to no good, then he'd either deal with them later, or the GCPD would. Either way? Not his priority. His priority was stopping the violence and ordering the Bat to stop brutalizing poor people.

----------


## Darkseid Is

Here's a question. I think I only remember hearing Batman referred to as Batman once or twice in Batman V Superman. Most of the time they call him the Bat or the Gotham Bat. Has Snyder or anyone explained this?

----------


## Carabas

> Here's a question. I think I only remember hearing Batman referred to as Batman once or twice in Batman V Superman. Most of the time they call him the Bat or the Gotham Bat. Has Snyder or anyone explained this?


They have been doing this in the comics since forever. It doesn't need an explanation.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> They have been doing this in the comics since forever. It doesn't need an explanation.


Like recently or like forever? Stood out to me for whatever reason in the BVS movie. Not trying to bash the movie just curious.

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## Carabas

> Like recently or like forever? Stood out to me for whatever reason in the BVS movie. Not trying to bash the movie just curious.


Since at least the 90's when I read way too much Batman books and probably to a lesser extent since the 40's.

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## Bored at 3:00AM

> We have no idea how complete Clark's knowledge of the Bat vigilante is. It's quite possible he's only researched his recent activities. It's also possible that Batman kept his activities secret for a good bit of his career. WE know he has decades of experience. Clark may very well not have. All he knew was that this guy is brutally beating poor, disadvantaged people and setting himself up as their judge, jury, and executioner. 
> 
> Yes he DID have such reason because he had information that says that Batman was doing EXACTLY that.


The only information that the movie presents about Superman's knowledge of Batman is that he had branded a guy with a dungeon of asian sex slaves in his basement was later executed in prison because of it. That's all we get in the theatrical cut. In the extended cut, we got a bit more information, but mostly about how it's a recent thing that the Batman is getting so much meaner. Nothing about him going after innocent people whatsoever.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> The only information that the movie presents about Superman's knowledge of Batman is that he had branded a guy with a dungeon of asian sex slaves in his basement was later executed in prison because of it. That's all we get in the theatrical cut. In the extended cut, we got a bit more information, but mostly about how it's a recent thing that the Batman is getting so much meaner. Nothing about him going after innocent people whatsoever.


Listen you, you're making it seem a lot more sexier than it was...

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## Confuzzled

> Listen you, you're making it seem a lot more sexier than it was...


LMAO. Though I agree that "dingy cells for trafficked humans" would be more appropriate than "dungeon of Asian sex slaves".

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## Bored at 3:00AM

> LMAO. Though I agree that "dingy cells for trafficked humans" would be more appropriate than "dungeon of Asian sex slaves".


I defer to your judgement  :Wink: 

Actually, I think we've run this into the ground. Obviously, that scene worked for some of you, and that's fine, but the point remains that the film did not do a good enough job articulating Superman's point of view, leaving audiences confused and muddying the waters when it came to Superman's motivations.

Had the script been a little clearer about the nature of Superman & Batman's relationship with each other, maybe that scene would have worked.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> O'Connor seems like an uninspired choice.


Or, you know... could watch Warrior and Pride & Glory and form an opinion based on that, Krypto.
This made my day. Haven't watched Accountant YET

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## batnbreakfast

> Since at least the 90's when I read way too much Batman books and probably to a lesser extent since the 40's.


You can NEVER read too much Batman, dear Carabas :Wink:

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## Carabas

> You can NEVER read too much Batman, dear Carabas


Orca. Murderous Leslie Tompkins. Bladder spasm.

I rest my case.

----------


## Agent Z

> Orca. *Murderous Leslie Tompkins*. Bladder spasm.
> 
> I rest my case.


When was this?

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## Vanguard-01

> The only information that the movie presents about Superman's knowledge of Batman is that he had branded a guy with a dungeon of asian sex slaves in his basement was later executed in prison because of it. That's all we get in the theatrical cut. In the extended cut, we got a bit more information, but mostly about how it's a recent thing that the Batman is getting so much meaner. Nothing about him going after innocent people whatsoever.


Doesn't matter that he's not killing innocent people. He's still exclusively targeting people in poor districts and he's showing an extreme proclivity for violence.

He's showing signs of becoming totally unhinged, so it's not exactly a stretch for Superman to put no stock in Batman's ability to judge who is and is not innocent. Bottom line? Those guys weren't shooting up the city until Batman showed up. Heck, once he showed up, they STILL weren't shooting up the CITY. They were shooting right at the dangerously deranged maniac who was chasing them down with machine guns and a car that could shrug off sustained minigun fire. Superman didn't know who they were or what they were about. He DID know, however, who Batman was and what he was about. Hence? Prioritizing Batman (the guy who started the fight) as the guy who needs to be stopped. 





> When was this?


War Games. She let Stephanie Brown die from her injuries after she was tortured by Black Mask. 

Well, we were led to believe she did, anyway. For about ten years, that was the story. Then they retconned it when they decided it was time to bring Steph back.

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## batnbreakfast

> Orca. Murderous Leslie Tompkins. Bladder spasm.
> 
> I rest my case.


Orca, yes if you refer to Larry Hama's but that's circa 2001 and shortly thereafter Bru took over. Robinson's Orca (One Year Later arc) was at least decent to me.
Murderous Leslie is Wargames Leslie around 2006 maybe.
Bladder spasm happens during KSmith's Mini (mini only thank good). All this is way past 90s (sorry I'm such a fanboy)

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## Carabas

> When was this?


Like Vanguard-01 said.

Crazy old lady just let her die from her injuries without lifting a finger to make a philosophical point about her pacifism.

There are reasons people hate this story.

----------


## Confuzzled

I think they had always planned to "retcon" it, or had at least considered it being a ruse as one of the options from the beginning. Steph had to come back some way, right? I don't think she was meant to be Jason 2.0

----------


## Soubhagya

> Doesn't matter that he's not killing innocent people. He's still exclusively targeting people in poor districts and he's showing an extreme proclivity for violence.
> 
> He's showing signs of becoming totally unhinged, so it's not exactly a stretch for Superman to put no stock in Batman's ability to judge who is and is not innocent. Bottom line? Those guys weren't shooting up the city until Batman showed up. Heck, once he showed up, they STILL weren't shooting up the CITY. They were shooting right at the dangerously deranged maniac who was chasing them down with machine guns and a car that could shrug off sustained minigun fire. Superman didn't know who they were or what they were about. He DID know, however, who Batman was and what he was about. Hence? Prioritizing Batman (the guy who started the fight) as the guy who needs to be stopped.


I am sorry to hear this. I can see that you are not seeing reason. Maybe our mothers would have the same name and we stop this debate.
See i like this movie. There are a lot of good things to take from it. Especially that Martha scene which says that maybe we are more similar to each other than we appear to be. You are saying Superman was single minded and focused on Batman. Yes it is true. I am saying he is a fool to single mindedly focus on Batman. You can't deny me my opinion. We both agree that he is a hero focused on doing the right thing. I am just adding that he is not doing a good job about it.

Still it is nice to talk to you. You really like the movie. On my part i am trying to( have seen it thrice). There is a lot to like in this movie. But its faults stop me from loving it completely. I have complaints and one is Superman appears really incompetent here. He is beaten by Batman and finally killed. In Man Of Steel he single handedly saved the world and here Bats and WW have cool scenes but Superman...

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## Carabas

> I think they had always planned to "retcon" it, or had at least considered it being a ruse as one of the options from the beginning. Steph had to come back some way, right? I don't think she was meant to be Jason 2.0


I don't think so. And she was never going to be Jason 2.0. She was going to be a forgotten footnote. That changed of course when DC found out they had somewhat miscalculated the size of her fanbase.

----------


## Frontier

> Doesn't matter that he's not killing innocent people. He's still exclusively targeting people in poor districts and he's showing an extreme proclivity for violence.
> 
> He's showing signs of becoming totally unhinged, so it's not exactly a stretch for Superman to put no stock in Batman's ability to judge who is and is not innocent. Bottom line? Those guys weren't shooting up the city until Batman showed up. Heck, once he showed up, they STILL weren't shooting up the CITY. They were shooting right at the dangerously deranged maniac who was chasing them down with machine guns and a car that could shrug off sustained minigun fire. Superman didn't know who they were or what they were about. He DID know, however, who Batman was and what he was about. Hence? Prioritizing Batman (the guy who started the fight) as the guy who needs to be stopped.


I agree with Bored that I think Superman would have been far more thorough then that given the situation, or at least have done more to investigate *why* Batman was doing what he was doing then what we actually saw.

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## Bored at 3:00AM

> I agree with Bored that I think Superman would have been far more thorough then that given the situation, or at least have done more to investigate *why* Batman was doing what he was doing then what we actually saw.


From an action stand point, there's nothing wrong with the scene except for how it ends. We totally get why Superman would want to stop Batman given what he knows about him, but the film fails to account for the follow up, which is just bad screen writing. If your audience is not presented with enough information to understand why the characters are doing what they're doing, it causes confusion, which this scene clearly did given how radically different people view this scene. It needed to be fleshed out more and didn't have the time or interest in doing so.

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## Soubhagya

> From an action stand point, there's nothing wrong with the scene except for how it ends. We totally get why Superman would want to stop Batman given what he knows about him, but the film fails to account for the follow up, which is just bad screen writing. If your audience is not presented with enough information to understand why the characters are doing what they're doing, it causes confusion, which this scene clearly did given how radically different people view this scene. It needed to be fleshed out more and didn't have the time or interest in doing so.


Exactly. It is not clear why? Character motivations are not clear. It was particularly apparent in Martha scene. Intent was to show that the same name humanized Superman in eyes of Batman. But there is not a single line to make it clear. Thus it is derided.

----------


## Punisher007

It's not even completely clear why this version of Lex hates Superman so much?  At least I know more than a few people who saw the movie who were confused by that.  Because if anything, Lex is benefitting from Superman's presence from what we can see.

----------


## Johnny

I just had to share this. By the amazing George Evangelista.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It's not even completely clear why this version of Lex hates Superman so much?  At least I know more than a few people who saw the movie who were confused by that.  Because if anything, Lex is benefitting from Superman's presence from what we can see.


It's not blatantly spelled out but there are a lot of lines that give us the idea.

*"You know, Dad was born in East Germany.He grew up eating stale crackers.And every other Saturday,he had to march in a parade and waved flowers at tyrants. So, I think it was providence that his son, me, would end up with this. One of my rebuild Metropolis crews found it. A little souvenir from the Kryptonian World Engine....A silver bullet to keep in reserve to use against the Kryptonians. So, the day doesn't come, Madame, when your children are waving daisies at a reviewing stand.

"There are more of them...The Meta-Human Thesis. You don't have to use the silver bullet, but, if you forge one...Well, then...We don't have to depend upon the kindness of monsters."*

We also find out Lex has all of those files on the rest of the League members. Later, his speech:

*"No, my father could not afford the books, so...He had to root through the garbage for yesterday's newspaper. The bitter sweet pain among man is having knowledge with no power. Because...Because that is paradoxical."*

Later:

*"No man in the sky intervened when I was a boy to deliver me from Daddy's fist and abominations. I've figured it out way back, if God is all powerful, he cannot be all good. And if he's all good, then he cannot be all powerful. And neither can you be."*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

It's a fierce philosophical objection and skepticism of power born from life experience and tremendous ego. Which is, essentially, Lex's longstanding motivation.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's not even completely clear why this version of Lex hates Superman so much?  At least I know more than a few people who saw the movie who were confused by that.  Because if anything, Lex is benefitting from Superman's presence from what we can see.


1.) He's crazy.

2.) Did I mention he's crazy? I did? Good! Moving on.

3.) He's an egomaniac who wanted "God" to bend to his will. Explicitly stated. 

4.) He's an abused child who hates Superman because he didn't intervene and save him from his father. 

5.) He's an egomaniac who wants to prove that Superman is no better than anyone else. 

6.) I mentioned the "crazy" right?

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Lex's motives are very clear. This is one of the reasons why I DO believe some aspects of the movie were deep. 
Lex has one line where he says if you're all powerful, you can't be all good, and if you're all good, you can't be all powerful. Because if you're both, there'd be no suffering and no need for heroes. Superman is a sin in Lex's mind. Add that in with Lex's dialogue at the dinner about being all knowing (in which Lex believes he is) but not being powerful (which Lex is not) as a paradox. 

It's all surrounded around Lex 's anger and fear in Superman being an omnipresent entity, a God. It's not right in his eyes.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

While I think Luthor's plan was overly convoluted, I wasn't confused by his motivations at all.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I just had to share this. By the amazing George Evangelista.


That was great.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I just had to share this. By the amazing George Evangelista.


Pretty cool

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

The full version of the JL Trailer's cover of "Come Together"

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

If Darkseid has a big name actor attached to the role, who would you want. Jeff Bridges could be good.

----------


## Frontier

Patty Jenkins has officially signed on for _Wonder Woman 2_.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Patty Jenkins has officially signed on for _Wonder Woman 2_.


YES!!! We knew it would happen, but it's nice to see it finally official!  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

After whatever she's being paid for this sequel, I propose we now call her Patty Jenkin$  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Johnny

> Patty Jenkins has officially signed on for _Wonder Woman 2_.


Get that load babe.

Of money of course.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

With the success of IT, I wonder if WB will be asking Muschietti to hop on board the DCEU train.

Assuming he even has any interest of course. 




> Patty Jenkins has officially signed on for _Wonder Woman 2_.


Excellent news.

----------


## Troian

No way is WW staying in December 2019 now. Star Wars is a behemoth domestically.

----------


## El_Gato

> No way is WW staying in December 2019 now. Star Wars is a behemoth domestically.


Don't forget Frozen 2 is also in December. Disney strikes again ughh!

My guess is either she moves forward to November 2019 or moves back to April or June 2020. Im hoping it's the former and not the latter two.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

WW needs to stay in the summer. Star Wars is Star Wars not smart to go against it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Yeah, even if the entire DCEU was as loved as the MCU, I still wouldn't put Wonder Woman 2, or ANY comic book movie, up against Star Wars. No sane franchise goes head-to-head with Star Wars. Add Frozen 2 to the mix and that's an even bigger "Nope!"

I think Wonder Woman is more of a summer movie. I mean when people think about Diana right now, they think about that beautiful tropical island from which she came. Unless the sequel is set almost entirely in an area of ice and snow, "Winter" just seems like the wrong mindset for Diana.

----------


## Johnny

Ah so the evil mouse does it again.

----------


## Frontier

> Ah so the evil mouse does it again.


I find so much wrong in this image  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Johnny

> I find so much wrong in this image .


Yet so accurate. Hyperbole and all.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jokerz79

Yeah I think WW2 will be great but this is Star Wars and potentially the last time we see Luke Skywalker on screen. So yeah move it to Summer.

----------


## Ascended

Going up against Star Wars is suicide, but is summer the only alternative? 

What about February? Or October? September?

----------


## Ascended

> Ah so the evil mouse does it again.


That is amazing. I actually want a print of that for my wall.

----------


## maxmcco

> With the success of IT, I wonder if WB will be asking Muschietti to hop on board the DCEU train.
> 
> Assuming he even has any interest of course. 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent news.



I read a rumour recently that he might be doing Black Adam at New Line studios, the same Warner division that made IT. It would be interesting to have two horror directors in charge of the Shazam franchise.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Ah so the evil mouse does it again.


Wicked cool image

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Going up against Star Wars is suicide, but is summer the only alternative? 
> 
> What about February? Or October? September?


The November release of JL will be a telling tale indeed.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> The November release of JL will be a telling tale indeed.


I can't wait. I'm a big Star Wars fan but JL is what I'm most exited for. Can't wait to see what happens.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Wonder Woman should be a summer release for sure.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I can't wait. I'm a big Star Wars fan but JL is what I'm most exited for. Can't wait to see what happens.


I can't wait... but I've also never been so nervous about a movie premiere.  I want it to be GREAT... but fear it will be good at best... and obviously worse than BvS as a worse case scenario.   I simply don't trust Snyder's abilities.  I don't mind beign proven wrong.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Going up against Star Wars is suicide, but is summer the only alternative? 
> 
> What about February? Or October? September?


WB locked down Valentine's 2020 for a DCEU project. WW2 would work perfectly in that date.

Of course, this is just assumption that SW9 indeed moves to December. And somebody earlier said Frozen 2 is coming in December but it's not, it's in November. Though everything has been incredibly quiet on that front so far. I wouldn't be surprised if they delay that movie and put the live action Aladdin remake in its place.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Ah so the evil mouse does it again.


Great image.

We all know who the real Kingpin of entertainment and money making is.




Nobody f*cks with the House of Mouse.

----------


## Troian

> WB locked down Valentine's 2020 for a DCEU project. WW2 would work perfectly in that date.
> 
> Of course, this is just assumption that SW9 indeed moves to December. And somebody earlier said Frozen 2 is coming in December but it's not, it's in November. Though everything has been incredibly quiet on that front so far. I wouldn't be surprised if they delay that movie and put the live action Aladdin remake in its place.


Frozen comes out in Nov 27th and will probably make the majority of its gross in December. 

Aladdin is slated for SWs original spot of May 24th 2019. They have a director, they have casted the leads and have the source material to work on so it should be able to make that release date.

----------


## Confuzzled

Affleck's Batman script was reportedly inspired by David Fincher's _The Game_

A script that won't be used. Seemed like a Riddler friendly movie.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

65 days until JL releases. 
Anyone starting to wonder where the promotion is like me?

----------


## Doctor Know

I imagine the push will be in October. Summer hasn't even officially ended yet. Not till the 22nd of September.

- Edit 

Plus Thor Ragnarok promotion hasn't started in earnest either.

----------


## Frontier

> 65 days until JL releases. 
> Anyone starting to wonder where the promotion is like me?


People thought the same thing about _Wonder Woman_, as I recall...

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I couldn't stay away from Wonder Woman promotion for over a month as I hid myself from any potential spoilers. The people that were saying that may have had a small point but I never shared that opinion.

Ragnarok is out two weeks before and promotion has been in swing for a few weeks with tv spots, posters popping up, etc. 

I know they're still finishing things up in the editing room, but... 65 days!

Side note, what's up with WB getting the shaft from Disney and Universal(?) on these release dates?

----------


## Confuzzled

Promos will ramp up after the final trailer debuts at New York Comic Con. Once Ragnarok releases and is "out of the way", the final two weeks will see a massive push and oversaturation in media. They had applied a similar strategy for Wonder Woman after Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

I don't think WB is getting the shaft in particular. It's just that competition is cutthroat and the bigger IP's know they can bend the others to their will. And there's (for the time being) no bigger kahuna than Star Wars.

----------


## Johnny

> People thought the same thing about _Wonder Woman_, as I recall...


To be honest it's rather unusual for a movie of this caliber to be surrounded by so much secrecy, which is probably where the relative lack of promotion is coming from.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Affleck's Batman script was reportedly inspired by David Fincher's _The Game_
> 
> A script that won't be used. Seemed like a Riddler friendly movie.


Sounds wicked cool, actually

----------


## byrd156

*Chris McKay Describes 'Nightwing' As A "Badass Action Movie"* - http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/14/c...-action-movie/

----------


## Carabas

> *Chris McKay Describes 'Nightwing' As A "Badass Action Movie"* - http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/14/c...-action-movie/


The extremely generic words of this guy do not fill me with a lot of confidence. What he describes has less depth than a layer of paint or a Snyder movie.

----------


## Agent Z

> The extremely generic words of this guy do not fill me with a lot of confidence. What he describes has less depth than a layer of paint or a Snyder movie.


This is more or less how a lot of directors describe most superhero movies.

----------


## Powertool

> Affleck's Batman script was reportedly inspired by David Fincher's _The Game_
> 
> A script that won't be used. Seemed like a Riddler friendly movie.


Could be a case of dodged bullet. It's always been a very close race between _The Game_ and _The Curious Case of Benjamin Button_ for the coveted position of 'David Fincher's worst movie'.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Could be a case of dodged bullet. It's always been a very close race between _The Game_ and _The Curious Case of Benjamin Button_ for the coveted position of 'David Fincher's worst movie'.


Alien 3, brah.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *Chris McKay Describes 'Nightwing' As A "Badass Action Movie"* - http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/14/c...-action-movie/


Sounds great to me!

"A fun badass movie with a lot of heart and emotion?" Sounds like Nightwing to me. 

"Crazy fun ride?" That's basically what every CBM should aspire to be.

"Not a lot of CGI?" Absolutely! You don't NEED a lot of CGI for a Nightwing story. He's one of the most human characters in all of comics. Even his villains are human. Practical effects are definitely the way to go on this one. Plus? Less CG = Lower Budget = Greater Profit Margin. 

"His superpower is being really good as a human being?" Yep! That's Nightwing. 

Sure, I'd like some more details, but this checks every box for what I'm looking for in a Nightwing movie.

----------


## Styles

Aquaman Will Finish Filming This Month

----------


## Confuzzled



----------


## Styles

Chris McKay Talks WB Filmmaker Driven Approach And Struggles To Build The DCEU

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

How does this thread not have the news about Umberto Gonzalez saying there are 2 green lanterns in JL?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> How does this thread not have the news about Umberto Gonzalez saying there are 2 green lanterns in JL?


He's not particularly trusted around these parts and it's not like it's made the rounds to the other news circuits. Easy enough to say that no one yet has looked at one news outlet yet.

Interesting possibility, though. If I had to guess, I'd say that one Lantern will appear in the flashback scene to establish that the GLs were involved in the first war against Darkseid. The second one will likely be an established Lantern in the modern part of the story to establish that the GLs are still around and will be part of the DCEU moving forward.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

I am pretty sure that Snyder himself confirmed that at least one alien member of the GLCorps will appear in Justice League to establish why Steppenwolf and his army of Parademons are able to attack Earth free and clear of any protectors.

During an interview about Geoff Johns's role as producer, Snyder mentioned how invaluable he is as a resource for all things DCU. Apparently, he needed a GL who could serve a very specific function in the movie and Johns was able to give him one on the spot, which is not surprising given Johns wrote the title for years.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I am pretty sure that Snyder himself confirmed that at least one alien member of the GLCorps will appear in Justice League to establish why Steppenwolf and his army of Parademons are able to attack Earth free and clear of any protectors.
> 
> During an interview about Geoff Johns's role as producer, Snyder mentioned how invaluable he is as a resource for all things DCU. Apparently, he needed a GL who could serve a very specific function in the movie and Johns was able to give him one on the spot, which is not surprising given Johns wrote the title for years.


Why not kill Hal... then introduce John Stewart in the DCEU

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Why not kill Hal... then introduce John Stewart in the DCEU


Why do that when you can use BOTH characters and avoid pissing off either of the two largest GL fanbases?

----------


## Johnny

> Why not kill Hal... then introduce John Stewart in the DCEU


Why not show some respect to the character first before doing that. I'm fairly certain that Jordan isn't going to have a big role in the DCEU and for all we know GLC could end up being his only appearance, but give the guy his due while they're at it. If they were to kill him, they might as well get something out of it too and not use him merely as a means to introduce another character.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> He's not particularly trusted around these parts and *it's not like it's made the rounds to the other news circuits.* Easy enough to say that no one yet has looked at one news outlet yet.
> 
> Interesting possibility, though. If I had to guess, I'd say that one Lantern will appear in the flashback scene to establish that the GLs were involved in the first war against Darkseid. The second one will likely be an established Lantern in the modern part of the story to establish that the GLs are still around and will be part of the DCEU moving forward.


Guy, I like you because you're the most optimistic one of us, but you can't bend truth to your will. The news had been out since the a.m. yesterday. I posted it at 8 pm. It was on all the relevant comic sites by noon.

----------


## Elmo

> Guy, I like you because you're the most optimistic one of us, but you can't bend truth to your will. The news had been out since the a.m. yesterday. I posted it at 8 pm. It was on all the relevant comic sites by noon.


But I guess CBR isn't one of those

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Guy, I like you because you're the most optimistic one of us, but you can't bend truth to your will. The news had been out since the a.m. yesterday. I posted it at 8 pm. It was on all the relevant comic sites by noon.


Am I "bending the truth to my will" if I completely failed to notice one story among many? As Elmo points out, I've seen nest to nothing about that story on this site or any of the other sites I frequent. 

The true point of my post was the first sentence. Ramos is not that highly regarded on this thread, so it makes sense that a lot of people noticed it and put very little stock in it and/or simply had a lot of other things they'd rather discuss. 

A story slipped through the cracks in this thread. It happens. It's hardly a sign of some conspiracy or whatever.

----------


## Confuzzled

There hadn't been much activity in the thread for the past couple of days in general. Makes sense as most people are probably waiting for the final trailer to drop at NYCC in less than 3 weeks now.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> There hadn't been much activity in the thread for the past couple of days in general. Makes sense as most people are probably waiting for the final trailer to drop at NYCC in less than 3 weeks now.


Is that a for sure thing? The NYCC drop?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Finn Wittrock as possible Nightwing? https://twitter.com/Mister_Batfleck/...30342461247489

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Finn Wittrock as possible Nightwing? https://twitter.com/Mister_Batfleck/...30342461247489


If so, then holy CRAP does he look the part! 

Not familiar with his work, but that's a good first impression, for sure.

EDIT: Correction. I just noticed he's been on American Horror Story. Now I'm getting a better picture here.

----------


## Confuzzled

He was Emma Stone's first boyfriend in _La La Land_.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Is that a for sure thing? The NYCC drop?


Oh I thought it was but then found out the source was just this Twitter account  :Frown: 

https://twitter.com/dceuniverse/stat...89650560913408

But still, the timing is perfect for the final trailer. It's almost the same time pre-release as BVS's final trailer drop.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Matthew Vaughn's vision for doing a Superman movie:

“Weirdly if I did do Superman—and I made the mistake of telling someone yesterday I have spoken about it and then wallop (laughs)—I think my main take would be, it’s really boring but make a Superman film. I just don’t feel a proper Superman—I think Donner did it to perfection for that time. Just doing the modern—I wanna do a modern version of the Donner [version]. Go back to the source material… For me Superman is color, feel-good, heroic. He’s a beacon of light in darkness. And that’s what I think Superman should be.”

*YES PLEASE. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, LET HIM DIRECT MOS 2!*

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Matthew Vaughn's vision for doing a Superman movie:
> 
> “Weirdly if I did do Superman—and I made the mistake of telling someone yesterday I have spoken about it and then wallop (laughs)—I think my main take would be, it’s really boring but make a Superman film. I just don’t feel a proper Superman—I think Donner did it to perfection for that time. Just doing the modern—I wanna do a modern version of the Donner [version]. Go back to the source material…


Going to the source material wouldn't lead you necessarily to the Donnerverse, though.  :Wink:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Going to the source material wouldn't lead you necessarily to the Donnerverse, though.


Eh...it kind of does though, indirectly at least. If the majority of source material---classic Supes stories---again, the majority but not all, would lead you to a tone and feel pretty close to what Donner built.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Eh...it kind of does though, indirectly at least. If the majority of source material---classic Supes stories---again, the majority but not all, would lead you to a tone and feel pretty close to what Donner built.


Well, if Donner had actually gone to the source material during the Bronze Age (the era I grew up in), the films would have looked a lot different. Bumbling, awkward Clark would have been scaled down a lot - Supe's boy scout image was created by the films, not the comics, so that would have also been altered. Lex Luthor would have been radically different, without a doubt - 180 degrees different, even. 

Please note this isn't a negative critique against those films, which were cutting edge and wonderful then and still now. Just noting the fact that they weren't carbon copies of that era in comics or any other one.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Well, if Donner had actually gone to the source material during the Bronze Age (the era I grew up in), the films would have looked a lot different. Bumbling, awkward Clark would have been scaled down a lot - Supe's boy scout image was created by the films, not the comics, so that would have also been altered. Lex Luthor would have been radically different, without a doubt - 180 degrees different, even. 
> 
> Please note this isn't a negative critique against those films, which were cutting edge and wonderful then and still now. Just noting the fact that they weren't carbon copies of that era in comics or any other one.


Character adaptation and overall tonality are two different things. I think it is the latter that Vaughn is referencing and the former that you are pointing out as different from the source material, to which I agree.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Character adaptation and overall tonality are two different things. I think it is the latter that Vaughn is referencing and the former that you are pointing out as different from the source material, to which I agree.


But even the tone of the films were more lighter than what was even seen in the comics on average at the time.

----------


## Clark_Kent

"A modern version of the Donner version"...we already got this one. It was called 'Superman Returns', and it was pretty terrible. 

As long as Cavill remains, I'm in. But referencing Donner in the conversation AGAIN just gives me pause.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> "A modern version of the Donner version"...we already got this one. It was called 'Superman Returns', and it was pretty terrible. .


Actually, it's easily the third-best film in that particular series, IMO. My personal problem with it is that it should have been made back in the '80s instead of 10 years ago.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> "A modern version of the Donner version"...we already got this one. It was called 'Superman Returns', and it was pretty terrible. 
> 
> As long as Cavill remains, I'm in. But referencing Donner in the conversation AGAIN just gives me pause.


It wasn't modern at all.

----------


## Pinsir

Has anyone else bought this cool set? I pretty much dropped DC Lego sets where Batman is the focus so its the only one of the Justice League series I'm getting.

----------


## Carabas

> "A modern version of the Donner version"...we already got this one. It was called 'Superman Returns', and it was pretty terrible.


There was nothing modern about Superman Returns. And it missed its mark by a mile if it was aiming for the feel of Superman the Movie.

----------


## Thomas Crown

In the name of everything that is holy, keep Matthew Vaughn away from DCEU Superman!

----------


## FishyZombie

> There was nothing modern about Superman Returns. And it missed its mark by a mile if it was aiming for the feel of Superman the Movie.





> It wasn't modern at all.




Exactly, if anything, Patty Jenkin's Wonder Woman was the modern Donner Superhero movie. And that turned out pretty amazing.

----------


## Robotman

Finn Wittrock is apparently a front runner to play Nightwing. He looks the part but is a bit too old in my opinion. He's 32 which means he'll be in his mid 30s by the time the movie hits theaters. Nightwing should be in his early to mid 20s I think. 

Another reason why having an old Batman as the basis of their cinematic universe was a stupid idea.

----------


## Agent Z

> There was nothing modern about Superman Returns. And it missed its mark by a mile if it was aiming for the feel of Superman the Movie.


It did have the feel of Superman the movie. Which could have been passable if it came out in 1978 not 2006

----------


## Elmo

> Finn Wittrock is apparently a front runner to play Nightwing. He looks the part but is a bit too old in my opinion. He's 32 which means he'll be in his mid 30s by the time the movie hits theaters. Nightwing should be in his early to mid 20s I think. 
> 
> Another reason why having an old Batman as the basis of their cinematic universe was a stupid idea.


Yeah Nightwing being almost 10 years younger than Bruce is a huge turn off for me. I know some people like to see Bruce and Dick's relationship as brotherly, but to me it's always been father/son. 

A superhero film about a kid in his late teens/early 20s completely on his own without being guided by any mentor would be so cool.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah Nightwing being almost 10 years younger than Bruce is a huge turn off for me. I know some people like to see Bruce and Dick's relationship as brotherly, but to me it's always been father/son. 
> 
> A superhero film about a kid in his late teens/early 20s completely on his own without being guided by any mentor would be so cool.


I don't think a 10-year age difference should prevent a father/son dynamic, depending on how old Dick was when Bruce took him in and became Robin and how they play out the dynamic.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't think a 10-year age difference should prevent a father/son dynamic, depending on how old Dick was when Bruce took him in and became Robin and how they play out the dynamic.


Realistically Bruce was under 30 and Dick was pubescent when they met.

----------


## Elmo

> I don't think a 10-year age difference should prevent a father/son dynamic, depending on how old Dick was when Bruce took him in and became Robin and how they play out the dynamic.


If we're talking first appearances, Dick was 10 when he became Robin. Bruce looks to be well into his late 20s or early thirties, he's described as a young socialite but doesn't look too young. Typically though, in most reboots and adaptations, Dick is about 12 or 13 when he becomes Robin. That would mean Bruce would have taken him in at the age of 26, which I guess seems about right, but I prefer their age difference to be a little wider.

----------


## El_Gato

Now this is a Justice League Dark cast I can get behind! Throw in some Swamp Thing action and we are good to go! What do you guys think?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Now this is a Justice League Dark cast I can get behind! Throw in some Swamp Thing action and we are good to go! What do you guys think?


Constantine= too pretty
Zatanna= cleavage, yay
Deadman= please god, no Wes Bentley, maybe Doug Jones or Steve Buscemi

On Vaugn on MoS2: He sounds too good to be true, as in fanservice. Did they just listen to the Internet?

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Constantine= too pretty
> Zatanna= cleavage, yay
> Deadman= please god, no Wes Bentley, maybe Doug Jones or Steve Buscemi
> 
> On Vaugn on MoS2: He sounds too good to be true, as in fanservice. Did they just listen to the Internet?


Did you pick Buscemi because he already looks like a skeleton man?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yeah Nightwing being almost 10 years younger than Bruce is a huge turn off for me. I know some people like to see Bruce and Dick's relationship as brotherly, but to me it's always been father/son.


This actor looks younger than his age. He could pass off as mid-late 20's.




> A superhero film about a kid in his late teens/early 20s completely on his own without being guided by any mentor would be so cool.


There is this tiny series of films about an obscure character called _Spider-Man_. Definite recommendation.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It wasn't modern at all.


When I say "modern", obviously I'm talking the point in time that it was made. C'mon. 

My point is, Vaugn basically wants to do a film that is reminiscent of Donner's version in tone. We already had an attempt at that, and it didn't work for today's audience. Superman has a lot of history to pull from, and much of it is better than Reeve's films. Fans need to move on, there are other things to pull inspiration from.

----------


## Badou

> Yeah Nightwing being almost 10 years younger than Bruce is a huge turn off for me. I know some people like to see Bruce and Dick's relationship as brotherly, but to me it's always been father/son. 
> 
> A superhero film about a kid in his late teens/early 20s completely on his own without being guided by any mentor would be so cool.


Batman is going to be pushing 50 in this universe so the age different is probably closer to 15-20. Nightwing was always going to be around 30. I don't know why people thought he would be a teen or really early 20s.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Did you pick Buscemi because he already looks like a skeleton man?


Kinda, he reminds me of Kelley Jones' Deadman, could be better at humor than Wes Bentley and I'm a huge fan of Boardwalk Empire

----------


## Flash Gordon

> It did have the feel of Superman the movie. Which could have been passable if it came out in 1978 not 2006


It felt nothing like Superman: The Movie.

It had none of the energy that made that film work. It just homaged things from that flick, in this weird empty way.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It felt nothing like Superman: The Movie.
> 
> It had none of the energy that made that film work. It just homaged things from that flick, in this weird empty way.


While I agree it wasn't as good as the first two movies, had it been made 30 years ago, I believe many more people would have looked upon the film more favorably.

----------


## Elmo

> This actor looks younger than his age. He could pass off as mid-late 20's.
> 
> 
> 
> There is this tiny series of films about an obscure character called _Spider-Man_. Definite recommendation.


Aside from the first Amazing Spider-Man, there are no films that fit into the category I described.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> While I agree it wasn't as good as the first two movies, had it been made 30 years ago, I believe many more people would have looked upon the film more favorably.


True. Also had Chris Reeve, Kidder and Hackman gotten this script and a decent budget in 1987 rather than Quest for Peace, it would have been a decent send off for that incarnation.

Heck, the tone feels like it's an ending to a trilogy of Superman movies, they just forgot to make the first two. It's supposed to be the " real" Superman III in relation to the Donner and Lester films, but outside of sharing some dialogue and some iconography and of course the theme, it doesn't quite work.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Aside from the first Amazing Spider-Man, there are no films that fit into the category I described.


Who's Spider-Man the sidekick to in the other films? Also there are the _Kick-Ass_ films.

----------


## Frontier

> Who's Spider-Man the sidekick to in the other films? Also there are the _Kick-Ass_ films.


Gwen Stacy? Tony Stark  :Stick Out Tongue:  (I'm spitballing)?

----------


## maxmcco

Shazam is officially set to start filming in 2018 in Toronto - where I live -  from Feb 2 to May 4. Casting news for Billy and Cap should be imminent. 
 :Big Grin: 
https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2017/...february-2018/

----------


## Elmo

> Who's Spider-Man the sidekick to in the other films? Also there are the _Kick-Ass_ films.


I didn't say sidekick. I said completely on his own without any guidance from anyone else. Yes you have the original Spidey movies but Tobey was an older guy despite portraying an 18 y/o. In Homecoming Spider-Man is a whiney baby who can't do anything on his own.

----------


## Robotman

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/19/h...obbie-details/

Margot Robbie talks about the romantic nature of the Joker and Harley movie, which is being called a love story. Thus proving that Robbie and the creators of these films have absolutely no idea what they are doing with these two characters. Joker physically and emotionally abuses her and she crawls back to him because of her battered spouse syndrome. I'm so sick of this Hot Topic version of their relationship. 
The comics, video games, and animated features have long since moved on from this aspect of Harley. She's an independent women who has recovered from the horrible abusive relationship with the Joker.

----------


## Frontier

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/19/h...obbie-details/
> 
> Margot Robbie talks about the romantic nature of the Joker and Harley movie, which is being called a love story. Thus proving that Robbie and the creators of these films have absolutely no idea what they are doing with these two characters. Joker physically and emotionally abuses her and she crawls back to him because of her battered spouse syndrome. I'm so sick of this Hot Topic version of their relationship. 
> The comics, video games, and animated features have long since moved on from this aspect of Harley. She's an independent women who has recovered from the horrible abusive relationship with the Joker.


I mean, Joker and Harley's relationship *is* a messed up romance.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I mean, Joker and Harley's relationship *is* a messed up romance.


Yes. Even a bad romance is a romance lol. I don't want to be rude, but I feel at this point some non-fans are just looking to interpret every soundbite from a DCEU director and actor in a way that validates their own less than rosy view of the movie universe. Even if their interpretation doesn't match with what the DCEU related person is actually saying.

----------


## Carabas

> I didn't say sidekick. I said completely on his own without any guidance from anyone else. Yes you have the original Spidey movies but Tobey was an older guy despite portraying an 18 y/o. In Homecoming Spider-Man is a whiney baby who can't do anything on his own.


Tobey had guidance from Uncle Ben.

----------


## Carabas

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/19/h...obbie-details/
> 
> Margot Robbie talks about the romantic nature of the Joker and Harley movie, which is being called a love story. Thus proving that Robbie and the creators of these films have absolutely no idea what they are doing with these two characters. Joker physically and emotionally abuses her and she crawls back to him because of her battered spouse syndrome. I'm so sick of this Hot Topic version of their relationship. 
> The comics, video games, and animated features have long since moved on from this aspect of Harley. She's an independent women who has recovered from the horrible abusive relationship with the Joker.


This assumes that DCEU Joker and Harley have exactly the same kind of relationship they have in the comics, which we have already seen just is not true.

----------


## golgi

Got this from the box office forums. Sounds like Justice League will be an entertaining movie, overall.




> Friend of mine whom I trust (he was the one who told me months beforehand that Wonder Woman was a straightforward origin story, Alien was more of Prometheus and Apes was very dark all of which I mentioned here early as well) got a chance to watch this today. He enjoyed it, said that there are some issues they can still fix but he came out of the movie happy. Said he would give it a 7.5/10 or so. 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't ask him for plot spoilers and won't either. But he feels it will play well with audiences and be an entertaining time at the movies even if it isn't considered groundbreaking or anything.


https://forums.boxofficetheory.com/t...-talk/?page=46

----------


## Robotman

> Got this from the box office forums. Sounds like Justice League will be an entertaining movie, overall.
> 
> 
> 
> https://forums.boxofficetheory.com/t...-talk/?page=46


I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. There is too much riding on this film's success. Playing it safe is the best way to go. Justice League should be a fun pop corn flick. Make a mind bending Swamp Thing movie. Have Shazam combine superheroes with the magic of Harry Potter. But Justice League should just be a fun superhero team up. They aren't reinventing the wheel but just make it enjoyable.

----------


## manofsteel1979

At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.


100% agree.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.


Well said and that's the vibe I get from the film, straightforward enjoyable superhero team-up (with some kickass visuals)

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.


I couldn't have said it any better.  Ambition is great but will always fall flat without proper execution.

----------


## Johnny

> At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.

----------


## Soubhagya

> At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.


Couldn't have put it better.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

What he's saying makes sense. Even without the controversy of BvS or Suicide Squad the DCEU needs to kind of earn the right to start experimenting and taking big risks. While I genuinely enjoyed Man of Steel and thought Batman v. Superman was alright I understand they were kind of hard films to get into since we were just introduced to these characters and this world, we need to get to know them better before throwing them in the blender like that. 

I mean, that's why the MCU was able to make risky projects like Guardians of the Galaxy & Civil War work, they had solid good & fun films like Iron Man & The Avengers to get people invested in the first place. The same thing holds true with the Arrowverse and X-Men Movies. They didn't do Legends or Deadpool right out off the gate. I think that was Snyder's problem was that he too ambitious too fast. Seems like Warner Bros. is (hopefully) learning to start pacing themselves by making Justice League just... as he said, an audience pleaser.

----------


## Elmo

I am personally so sick and tired of Harley Quinn and the Joker. Do a New Gods or the Question movie or something; DC has a goldmine of characters and WB's big bright idea is Harley Quinn and Joker movies, or better yet the two of them together. It's so ridiculous. They are insanely overrated and as a die hard Batman fan I'm tired. Not sure if anyone else feels that way but it's been really bugging me.

It's just like a Flashpoint movie before a solo Flash movie. It's so irritating; there are hundreds of thousands of stories you could tell and yet they want to do the stories and characters that make the least sense for building a universe. I'm really disappointed with where the DCEU is going

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

I want from Justice League what I got from the first Avengers--a big fun superhero team-up with lots of great action and laughs.

To paraphrase Joss Whedon, I don't care if it's a great movie, I care that it's a good time.

----------


## Elmo

> Tobey had guidance from Uncle Ben.


Not throughout the film.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> At this point, JL needs to be as crowd pleasing as possible. I appreciate that Snyder attempted to do something more with MOS and BvS, and enjoyed both in spite of their flaws, but there are many that just didn't like it or get it. Suicide Squad was generally popular with audiences, Wonder Woman was popular with Critics and audiences. JUSTICE LEAGUE definitely needs to follow WW's success in that regard. It doesn't need to reinvent the wheel or break new ground. It needs to entertain first and foremost. There will of course will still be the "Man of Murder" zealots who won't be pleased unless Warners abandons the DCEU completely and disavows MOS/BvS ,but they are a lost cause anyway. The other 97 percent of movie goers just want an entertaining movie. As long as they deliver that, it will work out.


I think you nailed it.

These movies should be crowd pleasing. We're *not* re inventing the wheel here, guys. If I want art I'll read comics or watch original movies. We're talking about adaptions. We're talking about people that are only interested in making money. We all understand that. Let's make a movie that makes us all happy and gets the spirit of the comics.

----------


## Carabas

> Not throughout the film.


He didn't get guidance from Stark at all in Homecoming.
Stark was played here as an unreasonable authority figure.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I want from Justice League what I got from the first Avengers--a big fun superhero team-up with lots of great action and laughs.
> 
> To paraphrase Joss Whedon, I don't care if it's a great movie, I care that it's a good time.


I see where you're coming from but I really hate that philosophy. These characters deserve more.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> I see where you're coming from but I really hate that philosophy. These characters deserve more.


I don't know. Do they? They've have amazing runs in comic books and stories for years. Bogotazo, Bored at 3:00AM, Darkseid Is and all of us will have that forever. We'll never be able to translate the level of depth and intelligence to the big screen. Let's get the spirit of what we love and make a big action movie with laughs. I want grama to love this movie.

----------


## Carabas

> I see where you're coming from but I really hate that philosophy. These characters deserve more.


Characters don't deserve anything.
Fans do deserve better than what Snyder has delivered so far. I mean, it's nice that he tries do make something different and all, it's just that his ambition so far exceeds his ability that the end product is not even an interesting failure anymore, it's just a chore to sit through at times.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I see where you're coming from but I really hate that philosophy. These characters deserve more.


We will have to get someone like Nolan. Having ambition is good but there are a lot of factors to consider. Say the large amount of money involved. These movies really cost a lot. BvS earned 873 million yet people say it was not enough. I expected 1 billion dollars worldwide myself. You have Batman whose last two movies made 1 billion. You have Superman who is a cultural icon and whose first film made 666 million. For a comparison Batman Begins earned 374 million dollars as the first in a series. You have the first appearance of Wonder Woman. This was going to be easy. But it could not do so. I admire Zack Snyder and the team. They had ambition and tried to do something great. But when you have a budget of 250 million dollars without considering other expenses it is difficult.

That does not mean they should not try. They shall but after strengthening their own brand. Marvel can put its name on any movie and it is guaranteed to bring lots of viewers worldwide. At present DC does not inspire this confidence. After sometime they shall try to do different things. Maybe those which does not have gargantuan budgets. Say like that Justice League Dark.

Or something like Star Wars. The first was a crowd pleasing (though great film too) but the second one tried something different. More darker or deeper themes. Try this after you have a fan base which is bigger than the average comic book crowd. Start slow and safe before catching speed before trying to fly.

On my part i would not mind adaptations which catch the spirit of these characters. These characters are great. Why do they continue to be loved after so many years some for 75+years. Film can be okay to entertaining so people can love them. Greatness is of course in the comic books. I have them with me. Let others also share my love. 

That said i would love  something like Dark Knight Trilogy if it happens ever again.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> I see where you're coming from but I really hate that philosophy. These characters deserve more.


And they can certainly get more... from future films once DC Films proves it can deliver movies that audiences want to see. Marvel didn't start really experimenting once it had proven to audiences they were a brand worth putting their faith in. DC Films, for better or worse, swung for the fences right from the get go and ended up alienated so many people that faith simply isn't there.

Baby steps. Once DC proves it can walk, they can run. So far, Wonder Woman is the only film they've made that's really connected with audiences.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I see where you're coming from but I really hate that philosophy. These characters deserve more.


I agree. I do. However, this one time, at this juncture JL needs to be nothing more than a good entertaining movie. That doesn't mean they have to completely run away from or negate what was established in the previous movies, nor does it mean bending over backwards to satisfy the group of fans who seem to believe Zack Snyder is Satan personified because he didn't give them Donner Superman 3.0 . 

As I said, nothing short of WB abandoning the DCEU and then subsequently apologizing to each and every one of them personally for ruining and raping their childhood because Superman didn't wear Lycra spandex with red trunks and smile enough. Those people will find fault with JL regardless because many have made their mind up even before MOS came out that the DCEU is some crime that Warner's must atone for. Heck, they got the optimism and hope and color and humor they kept railing against MOS and BvS for lacking in Wonder Woman...And you still have many of them saying " not muh Wonder Woman"! You can't and will never win them over.

But even as someone who got what Snyder was doing in MOS and BvS and like and respect it, I can admit that this time JL will have to fully embrace the commercial side of the equation and focus on not royally confusing or pissing off the 97 percent of movie goers who didn't get all bent out of shape because Superman didn't conform to Chris Reeve's version they loved when they were 10, but perhaps were turned off and confused by some of the things in MOS and BvS. 

Heck, Snyder himself said even back before BvS came out that JL by design was going to be more main stream and straight forward. He had the wisdom to know JL was going to have to be a different kind of movie than MOS and BvS. Which is probably why he brought it Joss Weadon even before his personal tragedy forced him to step away.

----------


## Agent Z

> What he's saying makes sense. Even without the controversy of BvS or Suicide Squad the DCEU needs to kind of earn the right to start experimenting and taking big risks. While I genuinely enjoyed Man of Steel and thought Batman v. Superman was alright I understand they were kind of hard films to get into since we were just introduced to these characters and this world, we need to get to know them better before throwing them in the blender like that. 
> 
> I mean, that's why the MCU was able to make risky projects like Guardians of the Galaxy & Civil War work, they had solid good & fun films like Iron Man & The Avengers to get people invested in the first place. The same thing holds true with the Arrowverse and X-Men Movies. They didn't do Legends or Deadpool right out off the gate. I think that was Snyder's problem was that he too ambitious too fast. Seems like Warner Bros. is (hopefully) learning to start pacing themselves by making Justice League just... as he said, an audience pleaser.


Iron Man considered a huge risk back in the day not just because of the character's relative obscurity but because of the controversy of the lead actor

----------


## Agent Z

> Characters don't deserve anything.
> Fans do deserve better than what Snyder has delivered so far. I mean, it's nice that he tries do make something different and all, it's just that his ambition so far exceeds his ability that the end product is not even an interesting failure anymore, it's just a chore to sit through at times.


That's pretty much subjective. And I'll take what Snyder's had to offer than what Whedon did in AoU which was way mor of a chore.

Whedon' movies are entertaining the first time i see them but after rewatch, I feel stupid for even thinking I liked them and stuff like his WW script and the Natasha/Bruce relationship just further prove how outdated his writing is.

And no I don't mean the line about Natasha being infertile. I meant the entire relationship was dumb.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Iron Man considered a huge risk back in the day not just because of the character's relative obscurity but because of the controversy of the lead actor


Yeah, the entire Phase One was pretty risky as no one had done this interconnected cinematic universe thing before, at least not different solo movies leading up to the same team-up movie. 

And in all fairness the first 4 MCU movies didn't make anywhere as much as the first 4 DCEU movies. So maybe "risky" was indeed what DC needed to do to stand apart. Maybe some of Zack Snyder's specific ideas may have not been the ideal fit, but the general approach was right in my opinion.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Scott Mendelson (Forbes) gave his early worst case/best case scenarios for JL's box office. Someone can post both links (having hard time posting this right now), but it looks like his global bottom for the movie is in the $600 millions and best case globally is $1 billion. 

Also, first screenings were done yesterday. There's a couple stories around the web and Batman-News has a few tweets about the first reactions. 

57 days away!

----------


## Troian

JL will probably make 1-1.2 billion.

I highly doubt JL will be able to leg its way to 500 domestically like BATB and the brand hasn't grown/shown consistency so much that it can make 700 mil plus and earn 2/3s overseas.

----------


## Carabas

> JL will probably make 1-1.2 billion.
> 
> I highly doubt JL will be able to leg its way to 500 domestically like *BATB* and the brand hasn't grown/shown consistency so much that it can make 700 mil plus and earn 2/3s overseas.


Brave And the Bold?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I mean, Joker and Harley's relationship *is* a messed up romance.


they are mostly like Bonnie and Clyde (Beatty/Dunaway) for me

----------


## Confuzzled

New Justice League poster/banner includes Superman

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Scott Mendelson (Forbes) gave his early worst case/best case scenarios for JL's box office. Someone can post both links (having hard time posting this right now), but it looks like his global bottom for the movie is in the $600 millions and best case globally is $1 billion. 
> 
> Also, first screenings were done yesterday. There's a couple stories around the web and Batman-News has a few tweets about the first reactions. 
> 
> 57 days away!


Holy crap just 57 days? Yikkkkesssss. I am not ready for this, it's totally snuck up on me, we're getting a live action JL that soon AHHHHHHHH.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Scott Mendelson (Forbes) gave his early worst case/best case scenarios for JL's box office. Someone can post both links (having hard time posting this right now), but it looks like his global bottom for the movie is in the $600 millions and best case globally is $1 billion. 
> 
> Also, first screenings were done yesterday. There's a couple stories around the web and Batman-News has a few tweets about the first reactions. 
> 
> 57 days away!


Pessimistic Projection:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#2fcef63f1a85

Optimistic Projection:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#12cf0567630c




> Holy crap just 57 days? Yikkkkesssss. I am not ready for this, it's totally snuck up on me, we're getting a live action JL that soon AHHHHHHHH.


Less than two months away! Time flies doesn't it?

----------


## Johnny

> Less than two months away! Time flies doesn't it?


It truly does. I'm not terribly excited about the movie but I'm not completely apathetic towards it like I was with Suicide Squad either.

----------


## Soubhagya

> It truly does. I'm not terribly excited about the movie but I'm not completely apathetic towards it like I was with Suicide Squad either.


For me it is a dream coming true. I remember when i was a kid and Justice League used to be on television. It was my favorite show. It still is. I used to dream and make movies on Justice League. (Daydreams obviously). I used to dream of seeing those movies on screen. Simply make those episodes live action. The first episodes about attacks from Mars and the later one involving Thanagar Invasion was particularly cinematic. They are pretty fit for a movie series. 

Then there were separate dreams where i used to imagine a reality where i really was Batman and there was Wonder Woman and Justice League. Even if i am not sure that the movie would be good it is still the stuff of my dreams. 

I look for quality. I have seen only Wonder Woman in theaters. Rest of the DCEU from home. I am making an exception this time. Fresh or rotten i am in. (All except for Suicide Squad. I have no interest in a team up of villains. Haven't planned to see it either).

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## Carabas

> For me it is a dream coming true. I remember when i was a kid and Justice League used to be on television. It was my favorite show. It still is. I used to dream and make movies on Justice League. (Daydreams obviously). I used to dream of seeing those movies on screen. Simply make those episodes live action. The first episodes about attacks from Mars and the later one involving Thanagar Invasion was particularly cinematic. They are pretty fit for a movie series.


I just find it incredibly hard to make any kind of emotional connection between this movie and the comics or Timmverse versions of the JLA.

----------


## byrd156

I hope JL does well but with the DCEU I am so emotionally uninvested in this universe. This is the first Justice League movie, I should be pumped beyond belief but I just don't really care and it sucks.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Holy crap just 57 days? Yikkkkesssss. I am not ready for this, it's totally snuck up on me, we're getting a live action JL that soon AHHHHHHHH.


It snuck up on you?  I don't know exactly why but your post makes me think of this:

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## Soubhagya

> I just find it incredibly hard to make any kind of emotional connection between this movie and the comics or Timmverse versions of the JLA.



I am having some hope. Superman is my favorite hero. It appears that he has a lot of importance even after being absent. The League is formed in response to his death.. It appears that they are trying a course correction. Batman says he was a beacon to the world. Such words are too different from lines like No one stays good in this world, or Men are still good, or Turned back from mankind after a century of horrors. Those lines were really depressing. I maybe a fool but i can't help it. If Superman really turns up at a crucial time and shows how awesome he is? I shall not miss it.

I have this excitement because i really want a Justice League movie. Just because i dreamt of a Justice League movie in my childhood i am willing to make an exception. I never hoped to see Justice League on screen.

I like DCEU in parts. I don't outright hate it. There is some good even in BvS. I know i am not getting what i wanted. Something like the Timverse. That is foolishness. But something lesser is also too much for me. I am reserving my curses for after the movie. 

I am not truly excited for the movie. But i am excited to see my dream come true. Justice League.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I just find it incredibly hard to make any kind of emotional connection between this movie and the comics or Timmverse versions of the JLA.


You're right. DCEU Diana >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Timmverse Diana

----------


## Thomas Crown

> I am having some hope. Superman is my favorite hero. It appears that he has a lot of importance even after being absent. The League is formed in response to his death.. *It appears that they are trying a course correction.* Batman says he was a beacon to the world. Such words are too different from lines like No one stays good in this world, or Men are still good, or Turned back from mankind after a century of horrors. Those lines were really depressing. I maybe a fool but i can't help it. If Superman really turns up at a crucial time and shows how awesome he is? I shall not miss it.


I think the correct term is "character and plot development".

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## Wandering_Wand

Justice League is the only movie I've ever had literal dreams about. Pretty sure I've thought about it every single day since BvS. 
I'm cautiously optimistic. I hope it's great. But, I am in there with most folks who were soured with Suicide Squad. I liked BvS, loved Wonder Woman and Man of Steel. 

It's a huge deal for me. A dream come true. I Watched the cartoon in the early 2000s every day. Loved John Stewart, Martian Manhunter, Batman, Flash...

I will enjoy the movie. I also happen to like Snyder, so I think it'll be a win/win for me.

There have been some people saying there is no "investment" in the characters who haven't had a solo film. Well, the Trinity is covered (MoS, WW, and BvS). And it's not like everyone flocked to see Thor and Captain America... or even Norton's Hulk. That's strike one against that argumenr. Strike two is Guardians of the Galaxy. Did all of the characters need their own solos for fans to "connect" with? NOPE. Strike three is movies/series/franchises like Star Wars. Did we need or see origin films for Luke, Leia, and Han before A New Hope? 

All we need to see is chemistry with this cast and a decent script to make it all work. Fans will connect and have their favorites, or not.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Justice League is the only movie I've ever had literal dreams about. Pretty sure I've thought about it every single day since BvS. 
> I'm cautiously optimistic. I hope it's great. But, I am in there with most folks who were soured with Suicide Squad. I liked BvS, loved Wonder Woman and Man of Steel. 
> 
> It's a huge deal for me. A dream come true. I Watched the cartoon in the early 2000s every day. Loved John Stewart, Martian Manhunter, Batman, Flash...
> 
> I will enjoy the movie. I also happen to like Snyder, so I think it'll be a win/win for me.
> 
> There have been some people saying there is no "investment" in the characters who haven't had a solo film. Well, the Trinity is covered (MoS, WW, and BvS). And it's not like everyone flocked to see Thor and Captain America... or even Norton's Hulk. That's strike one against that argumenr. Strike two is Guardians of the Galaxy. Did all of the characters need their own solos for fans to "connect" with? NOPE. Strike three is movies/series/franchises like Star Wars. Did we need or see origin films for Luke, Leia, and Han before A New Hope? 
> 
> All we need to see is chemistry with this cast and a decent script to make it all work. Fans will connect and have their favorites, or not.


Agree with all of this except I enjoyed Suicide Squad too (then again, I've never been much of a traditional Harley Quinn fan and really enjoyed the spin Margot Robbie and David Ayer gave the character, so it was far easier for me to overlook its flaws).

To extend your point about the new guys in JL, this movie will probably give us a decently developed character arc for Victor, Barry will hopefully be a charming jokester and share great camaraderie with everyone, especially Vic, Bruce and maybe Diana, and Arthur will be the enigmatic and majestic king of a mysterious underwater kingdom, effectively teased for his upcoming solo movie. I'm confident these approaches will make up for them not having lead up solo films. 

Also, Avengers _did_ need to have setup solos for as many characters as possible as none of them were as iconic and renowned as the Trinity. Everyone who will be checking out this movie will know what makes the three of them tick, irrespective of whether or not they watched MoS or BvS. The same could hardly be said for Iron Man, Captain America or Thor pre-Avengers.

----------


## Soubhagya

> You're right. DCEU Diana >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Timmverse Diana


Wait a second. Are you serious? 
I can accept your views as your views. My favorite Diana has been and always will be Diana of Justice League. Why put someone down to pull someone up? Can't she stand on her own? Gal Gadot is pretty good. But Diana of JLU is simply beyond all dreams. Come on man you forget that she was the Wonder Woman for someone. Don't post something like this. You love Gadot. Fine i love her too. But your views on Diana of JLU? This is unacceptable to me. She was very good.

----------


## Johnny

Great Hera, Timmverse Diana was awesome when she wasn't gushing over Batman. But Timm had to go there with anyone from her to Zatanna to Lois and even Barbara.

----------


## Frontier

> Great Hera, Timmverse Diana was awesome when she wasn't gushing over Batman. But Timm had to go there with anyone from her to Zatanna to Lois and even Barbara.


I thought the relationship Zatanna was pretty fun though  :Smile: .

----------


## Vanguard-01

> You're right. DCEU Diana >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Timmverse Diana


Sweet huckleberry, YES!!!

Timmverse Diana makes me want to punch puppies. If she had been my first exposure to Wonder Woman, I'd probably NEVER have become a fan of hers.

----------


## Soubhagya

What is wrong with all of you? Anyone will gush over Batman. He is Batman. Or are you so jaded that you hate Batman.(Or maybe you hate Batman because he gets all the ladies.)

Was she moving around him like a puppy who has seen a bone? Rather Batman had something for her. And why wouldn't he? She was brave. She was strong. She was heroic. She left Themyscira to save the world. She was Wonder Woman. 

The only fault was that she had no show of her own. 

And if you find no wonder in a Wonder Woman who beats up all the big villains you have lost all sense of wonder.

----------


## Johnny

Calm down, people are allowed to dislike fictional characters. I didn't even hate on her, I called her "awesome" ffs. Now the Injustice version for instance I do dislike, but that was obviously what the writers were going for.

----------


## Robotman

> I hope JL does well but with the DCEU I am so emotionally uninvested in this universe. This is the first Justice League movie, I should be pumped beyond belief but I just don't really care and it sucks.


I've talked to a lot of people who feel the same way. While I still look forward to seeing it I'm not nearly as excited as I should be. A Justice League movie is something I've dreamed about since I was a little kid. Sadly all that has transpired with the DCEU has left me weary of being burned again. Plus I think having already seen 3 Avengers movies (I'm counting Civil War) the idea of a superhero team up isn't as exciting as it used to be.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> What is wrong with all of you? Anyone will gush over Batman. He is Batman. Or are you so jaded that you hate Batman.(Or maybe you hate Batman because he gets all the ladies.)


I don't hate Batman at all. I just think he gets massively overhyped and turning Wonder Woman into just one woman amongst a legion of women panting for the opportunity to bear his children is demeaning to the greatest female superhero of all time. The fact that literally EVERY woman wanted him was ridiculous. This "Women are irresistibly attracted to emotionally unavailable jerks" trope needs to die in a fire. 

Oh, and that's FAR from the main reason why I don't like JLU Diana. 




> Was she moving around him like a puppy who has seen a bone? Rather Batman had something for her. And why wouldn't he? She was brave. She was strong. She was heroic. She left Themyscira to save the world. She was Wonder Woman.


She was also an unlikeable ass who spent most of Season One crapping on just about everyone else. Well, except for that dreamy guy in the bat suit, of course. 




> And if you find no wonder in a Wonder Woman who beats up all the big villains you have lost all sense of wonder.


"Beats up all the big villains?" She got her ass handed to her on a routine basis! During the mind controlled arena episode? Four street-level, or just slightly above street-level heroines were able to take her on when she was supposedly fighting to kill, and they gave her no end of trouble.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Great Hera, Timmverse Diana was awesome when she wasn't gushing over Batman.


Despite their mutual attraction, I think Diana truly just enjoyed upsetting Bruce with her attentions.  :Smile:

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## Soubhagya

> Calm down, people are allowed to dislike fictional characters. I didn't even hate on her, I called her "awesome" ffs. Now the Injustice version for instance I do dislike, but that was obviously what the writers were going for.


I am sorry. I am not angry with anyone at all. Just a bit peeved that someone whom i love so much was getting reduced to a joke. 

Of course you have the right to like or dislike anyone. Its fine.

Am i denied to love someone? Love means i will atleast try to defend if someone attacks or reduces her. However feebly i can. Please excuse me. I have no intention to hurt or accuse anyone at all.

I simply love Wonder Woman. I loved her when i saw that show. I am loving her now as Gal Gadot.




> I don't hate Batman at all. I just think he gets massively overhyped and turning Wonder Woman into just one woman amongst a legion of women panting for the opportunity to bear his children is demeaning to the greatest female superhero of all time. The fact that literally EVERY woman wanted him was ridiculous. This "Women are irresistibly attracted to emotionally unavailable jerks" trope needs to die in a fire. 
> 
> Oh, and that's FAR from the main reason why I don't like JLU Diana. 
> 
> 
> 
> She was also an unlikeable ass who spent most of Season One crapping on just about everyone else. Well, except for that dreamy guy in the bat suit, of course. 
> 
> 
> ...


As for you Sir, I have given a white flag for peace. Wonder Woman was the first for me. I had never seen anyone like her. My first female superhero. You don't like JLU Wonder Woman. It is fine. But i won't hear against her. Either i will come back to defeat your arguments or i won't come back at all. One can't continue to love someone by keeping silent. Either i have to counter and defeat you or simply not return to this page. Do we want this? You may win but what will you win. A fan goes away. Is this victory? I am in this forum to love these characters and help others to love them. You maybe right. I may have been clouded by nostalgia. I think for anything i can dislike there is always something to like. If we admit this fact we can get over unnecessary hate. 

Every one has a personality. Diana can be angrier. We don't want Wolverine to be peaceful. Why double standards?

If she feels attracted to Batman that is her decision. Who am i to point her? [I agree with you that this is an old trope. But i don't think this is disrespectful to her. Since she had no show of her own(this is disrespectful) they gave her a romance out of nothing. The same thing is happening in the Titans book. Wally has no book. So he is now with Donna Troy. They can't flesh out characters in stories focused on teams. They take an easier way).

She fought Superman once. Superman was the one lying on the ground after the fight. Yes he was holding back. But this is what he does. He holds back. If someone can fight Superman she can fight anyone. (Superman was fighting earlier with force and stopped only after he saw through the illusion). She can fight Superman what proof do you want?

My point is let us be friends. We both love Gal Gadot. I love Diana of JLU but you hate her. There are still a lot of things common between us. This is no page to discuss Timverse.  It cropped up during a discussion on the upcoming Justice League movie. I say let us end this amicably.

----------


## byrd156

> I've talked to a lot of people who feel the same way. While I still look forward to seeing it I'm not nearly as excited as I should be. A Justice League movie is something I've dreamed about since I was a little kid. Sadly all that has transpired with the DCEU has left me weary of being burned again. Plus I think having already seen 3 Avengers movies (I'm counting Civil War) the idea of a superhero team up isn't as exciting as it used to be.


It's not that superhero team movies have lost their wonder and excitement to me. It's more of the universe, the casting, the roster, and overall story of this DC universe that is turning me off to this movie. I understand it's an adaptation and characters won't look exactly like their comic book counterparts but to me why the Marvel movies work so well isn't just because they have a fun formula with great action and heart in their movies, it's the casting mixed with the characters taking visual and character elements from the comics and making them their own thing while still having respect for what came before. Chris Evans looks like Steve Rodgers, Robert Downey Jr. looks like Tony Stark, Scarrlett Johansen looks like Black Widow and so on. There are some exceptions but they aren't things that totally alter characters like Scarlet Witch's costume not having the headgear or Jermey Renner's Hawkeye having dark brown hair. The casting mixed with the overall art direction of the universe flows together and makes the universe feel the same, they make the heroes pop out more in their costumes and the actors make the heroes pop more as characters.

To me the DCEU doesn't have that pop with the characters or really with the art direction. I will say it has a consistent universe tone most of the time but the actors don't feel right so far. The trinity looks good and ignoring how far Batman and Superman have gone, this is what I would say visually this is what I would like to see the Trinity look like. (I would like some costume changes but that won't happen) I like Jason Mamoa but Aquaman feels like they are trying so hard to make him cool with his design, the long dark hair and beard just feel wrong to me. Aquaman feels like he is one step away from getting a hook hand and I really don't want to see that happen. I love Ezra Miller as an actor but he doesn't feel right as Barry Allen, the bits we have seen of his character and personality I don't like for Barry and he just doesn't scream Barry Allen when I look at him same goes for Grant Gustin on the CW Flash. Then Ray Fisher, he looks alright as Cyborg since really there isn't much needed for him since it's just CG needed for the character but the main problem is Cyborg shouldn't be one of the founding members. This universe as a whole feels like the New 52 to me and that era of comics has been pretty much ripped to shreds and thrown away. The good parts where taken and thrown into Rebirth and things are kinda starting anew. Since the film industry takes so much time to make movies happen I'm betting that DC was hoping to have them line up a bit in a sense so it would be easy for people to connect the comics to the movies since they had a similar tone. Problem is that this era of comics no matter what side you were on was very divisive and made so many people (myself included) very jaded at DC and the overall DCEU tone feels like the New 52 and all in all is my main problem with it.

----------


## Frontier

Kiersey Clemons' cameo as Iris West has been cut from _Justice League_.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Kiersey Clemons' cameo as Iris West has been cut from _Justice League_.


First the Lex Luthor scenes, and now this. 

Yep. Looks like WB is trying to streamline this movie to make it as straightforward and crowd-pleasing as possible. Honestly, it's probably a good idea. Like others have already said: given the circumstances, this is NOT the movie with which risks should be taken. If they make this a simple, straightforward hero story with cool action and plenty of fun, the audience and the critics are much more likely to be kind to it. And if Justice League can succeed, then the DCEU is on a two-movie winning streak, with Aquaman having a really good chance at making it a three-movie streak next year. 

Yeah, it sucks for Kiersey Clemons, but I'm betting her scene was always a small cameo anyway. Those kind of scenes frequently get cut because they rarely serve the overall story that well. She'll get her time in the sun soon.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

These cut scenes will probably be restored for the Blu-ray anyhow

----------


## Soubhagya

> First the Lex Luthor scenes, and now this. 
> 
> Yep. Looks like WB is trying to streamline this movie to make it as straightforward and crowd-pleasing as possible. Honestly, it's probably a good idea. Like others have already said: given the circumstances, this is NOT the movie with which risks should be taken. If they make this a simple, straightforward hero story with cool action and plenty of fun, the audience and the critics are much more likely to be kind to it. And if Justice League can succeed, then the DCEU is on a two-movie winning streak, with Aquaman having a really good chance at making it a three-movie streak next year. 
> 
> Yeah, it sucks for Kiersey Clemons, but I'm betting her scene was always a small cameo anyway. Those kind of scenes frequently get cut because they rarely serve the overall story that well. She'll get her time in the sun soon.


I agree with you. It is sad after seeing her excitement. If her scenes are being cut they shall restore her scenes on Blu-ray. A consolation.
On my part i am getting good news. A bloated movie with simply introducing characters affects the flow of story.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> First the Lex Luthor scenes, and now this. 
> 
> Yep. Looks like WB is trying to streamline this movie to make it as straightforward and crowd-pleasing as possible. Honestly, it's probably a good idea. Like others have already said: given the circumstances, this is NOT the movie with which risks should be taken. If they make this a simple, straightforward hero story with cool action and plenty of fun, the audience and the critics are much more likely to be kind to it. And if Justice League can succeed, then the DCEU is on a two-movie winning streak, with Aquaman having a really good chance at making it a three-movie streak next year. 
> 
> Yeah, it sucks for Kiersey Clemons, but I'm betting her scene was always a small cameo anyway. Those kind of scenes frequently get cut because they rarely serve the overall story that well. She'll get her time in the sun soon.


Will she, tho? The next movie Flash is prominent in is Flashpoint....

----------


## Frontier

> Will she, tho? The next movie Flash is prominent in is Flashpoint....


I wouldn't be surprised if they change the story of Flashpoint to make Iris more relevant to the plot, like the TV show did.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I wouldn't be surprised if they change the story of Flashpoint to make Iris more relevant to the plot, like the TV show did.


That would be my thinking as well. I highly doubt Flashpoint will closely resemble the comic version. To truly do the comic justice, they'd have to pretty much abandon even the pretense of this being a Flash movie. A fully adapted Flashpoint movie would be a full Justice League movie. 

Yeah, I'm sure Iris will be in Flashpoint. For one thing? If they don't use her soon, her contract will expire, and they'll owe her a ton of money. No upside there for WB.

----------


## Frontier

> That would be my thinking as well. I highly doubt Flashpoint will closely resemble the comic version. To truly do the comic justice, they'd have to pretty much abandon even the pretense of this being a Flash movie. A fully adapted Flashpoint movie would be a full Justice League movie. 
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure Iris will be in Flashpoint. For one thing? If they don't use her soon, her contract will expire, and they'll owe her a ton of money. No upside there for WB.


I think we'll probably still see most of the Justice League in it though, in similar roles to the original Flashpoint story.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's not that superhero team movies have lost their wonder and excitement to me. It's more of the universe, the casting, the roster, and overall story of this DC universe that is turning me off to this movie. I understand it's an adaptation and characters won't look exactly like their comic book counterparts but to me why the Marvel movies work so well isn't just because they have a fun formula with great action and heart in their movies, it's the casting mixed with the characters taking visual and character elements from the comics and making them their own thing while still having respect for what came before. Chris Evans looks like Steve Rodgers, Robert Downey Jr. looks like Tony Stark, Scarrlett Johansen looks like Black Widow and so on. There are some exceptions but they aren't things that totally alter characters like Scarlet Witch's costume not having the headgear or Jermey Renner's Hawkeye having dark brown hair. The casting mixed with the overall art direction of the universe flows together and makes the universe feel the same, they make the heroes pop out more in their costumes and the actors make the heroes pop more as characters.
> 
> To me the DCEU doesn't have that pop with the characters or really with the art direction. I will say it has a consistent universe tone most of the time but the actors don't feel right so far. The trinity looks good and ignoring how far Batman and Superman have gone, this is what I would say visually this is what I would like to see the Trinity look like. (I would like some costume changes but that won't happen) I like Jason Mamoa but Aquaman feels like they are trying so hard to make him cool with his design, the long dark hair and beard just feel wrong to me. Aquaman feels like he is one step away from getting a hook hand and I really don't want to see that happen. I love Ezra Miller as an actor but he doesn't feel right as Barry Allen, the bits we have seen of his character and personality I don't like for Barry and he just doesn't scream Barry Allen when I look at him same goes for Grant Gustin on the CW Flash. Then Ray Fisher, he looks alright as Cyborg since really there isn't much needed for him since it's just CG needed for the character but the main problem is Cyborg shouldn't be one of the founding members. This universe as a whole feels like the New 52 to me and that era of comics has been pretty much ripped to shreds and thrown away. The good parts where taken and thrown into Rebirth and things are kinda starting anew. Since the film industry takes so much time to make movies happen I'm betting that DC was hoping to have them line up a bit in a sense so it would be easy for people to connect the comics to the movies since they had a similar tone. Problem is that this era of comics no matter what side you were on was very divisive and made so many people (myself included) very jaded at DC and the overall DCEU tone feels like the New 52 and all in all is my main problem with it.


This is your opinion, so it is what it is, and, ofc, that's fine. Still, I just don't get it.

1) The MCU movies are almost all by the numbers, and by committee, blockbusters. I see "heart" in IM1, Cap 1-2, Avengers, and GotG1. Other than that it's their usual "let's make them laugh so that they don't look deeper than the surface" that fits with their MO to purposely not challenge their audience. Civil War, to me, was the epitome of that. 

2) Cavil, Affleck, and Gadot....don't look like Supes, Bats, and WW? Yes, RDJ was born to play Stark, but anybody could play Cap. Evans does a great job, obviously, but I could see Henry Cavil, Chris Pine, Armie Hammer, Jon Hamm, Ben Foster, etc doing at least as good. Even Jesse's Lex is VERY much inspred by the comics, yet because he's not Timm's Lex (which is the version we've seen ever since, in all media) he's "not Lex"?

3) With Supes, and Bats, it's clearly just not the versions most expected, or wanted, honestly....but how/why does that make them problematic? The themes are still present, but they're presented in a clearly more "realistic" fashion. 

Again, it's all opinions, but I don't get it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I think we'll probably still see most of the Justice League in it though, in similar roles to the original Flashpoint story.


Certainly at least a few of them. It seems like it's already confirmed that Diana will appear. But they'll still probably find a way to better integrate Flash and his world into the center of the event. Best guess anyway.

----------


## Troian

> Brave And the Bold?


Beauty and The Beast, my all time fave Disney animated movie and princess. 
Btw, it made 504 dom/760 os and opened to 175 million.

----------


## byrd156

> This is your opinion, so it is what it is, and, ofc, that's fine. Still, I just don't get it.
> 
> 1) The MCU movies are almost all by the numbers, and by committee, blockbusters. I see "heart" in IM1, Cap 1-2, Avengers, and GotG1. Other than that it's their usual "let's make them laugh so that they don't look deeper than the surface" that fits with their MO to purposely not challenge their audience. Civil War, to me, was the epitome of that. 
> 
> 2) Cavil, Affleck, and Gadot....don't look like Supes, Bats, and WW? Yes, RDJ was born to play Stark, but anybody could play Cap. Evans does a great job, obviously, but I could see Henry Cavil, Chris Pine, Armie Hammer, Jon Hamm, Ben Foster, etc doing at least as good. Even Jesse's Lex is VERY much inspred by the comics, yet because he's not Timm's Lex (which is the version we've seen ever since, in all media) he's "not Lex"?
> 
> 3) With Supes, and Bats, it's clearly just not the versions most expected, or wanted, honestly....but how/why does that make them problematic? The themes are still present, but they're presented in a clearly more "realistic" fashion. 
> 
> Again, it's all opinions, but I don't get it.


I think the themes they push are all well and good but my problem isn't so much as the themes, it's the execution of the themes that I have a problem with. People say that the movies are doing important and handling heavy topics but they don't do it in a meaningful way.

Also I'm not saying there isn't inspiration from the comics for the DCEU, I'm saying the wrong eras are used for the inspiration. Like a Frank Miller Batman, the tone of the New 52, 90's Aquaman and so on.

----------


## BatmanJones

> ThEven Jesse's Lex is VERY much inspred by the comics


We must have seen different movies. Jesse's Lex doesn't bear any resemblance at all to the Luthor I've been reading for 45 years. His performance is a put on. He's trying so hard to reinvent the character (as Ledger did so successfully with The Joker) he doesn't even try to emulate anything that makes the character Luthor. This is an entirely new (entirely annoying) character and he bears no resemblance to the character I've read my entire life.

Generally speaking, though I HATED BvS, I'm not one of the guys crowing that Superman would never break Zod's neck or Batman would never kill. I don't need that level of reverence for the characters as written.

But Eisenberg doesn't even seem like he's trying to play Lex. As so many have noted he seems like he's doing his version of The Joker or something instead and his performance was perhaps the thing I hated most in a movie that I hated through and through.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think the themes they push are all well and good but my problem isn't so much as the themes, it's the execution of the themes that I have a problem with. People say that the movies are doing important and handling heavy topics but they don't do it in a meaningful way.
> 
> Also I'm not saying there isn't inspiration from the comics for the DCEU, I'm saying the wrong eras are used for the inspiration. Like a Frank Miller Batman, the tone of the New 52, 90's Aquaman and so on.


Man of Steel is based more on Byrne's run and Superman Earth 1. 90s Aquaman is the only reason anyone even cared about the character after Super friends ruined him. The tone used isn't unique to the New 52 and can be seen in several pre Flashpoint stories. WW has little in common with the new 52.

----------


## Thomas Crown

Okay, based on these reports about Lex Luthor and Iris West (and probably others) being cut from "Justice League", I guess there's no more doubt that Warner Bros is mutilating Zack Snyder's movie AGAIN, right?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Okay, based on these reports about Lex Luthor and Iris West (and probably others) being cut from "Justice League", I guess there's no more doubt that Warner Bros is mutilating Zack Snyder's movie AGAIN, right?


If Whedon is making the cuts, he may be making some sensible decisions. At least in terms of plot focus and pacing, at least I trust him more than the studio interfering too much.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> We must have seen different movies. Jesse's Lex doesn't bear any resemblance at all to the Luthor I've been reading for 45 years. His performance is a put on. He's trying so hard to reinvent the character (as Ledger did so successfully with The Joker) he doesn't even try to emulate anything that makes the character Luthor. This is an entirely new (entirely annoying) character and he bears no resemblance to the character I've read my entire life.
> 
> Generally speaking, though I HATED BvS, I'm not one of the guys crowing that Superman would never break Zod's neck or Batman would never kill. I don't need that level of reverence for the characters as written.
> 
> But Eisenberg doesn't even seem like he's trying to play Lex. As so many have noted he seems like he's doing his version of The Joker or something instead and his performance was perhaps the thing I hated most in a movie that I hated through and through.


I thought he was a pretty straight adaptation of Birthright/Secret Origins Lex. Maybe some Lex Jr. thrown in.






> Okay, based on these reports about Lex Luthor and Iris West (and probably others) being cut from "Justice League", I guess there's no more doubt that Warner Bros is mutilating Zack Snyder's movie AGAIN, right?


This time though he picked a director to make these changes knowing they needed to be made.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> We must have seen different movies. Jesse's Lex doesn't bear any resemblance at all to the Luthor I've been reading for 45 years. His performance is a put on. He's trying so hard to reinvent the character (as Ledger did so successfully with The Joker) he doesn't even try to emulate anything that makes the character Luthor. This is an entirely new (entirely annoying) character and he bears no resemblance to the character I've read my entire life.
> 
> Generally speaking, though I HATED BvS, I'm not one of the guys crowing that Superman would never break Zod's neck or Batman would never kill. I don't need that level of reverence for the characters as written.
> 
> But Eisenberg doesn't even seem like he's trying to play Lex. As so many have noted he seems like he's doing his version of The Joker or something instead and his performance was perhaps the thing I hated most in a movie that I hated through and through.


I'd like to direct you to SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT. Eisenberg's Lex is clearly inspired by that version. It's not note for note identical, but it's pretty close in terms of playing up the idea he was more than slightly deranged, socially awkward , monologuing, and less of the stern Clancy Brown Robber Baron and more mad scientist. Luthor's increasingly erratic and quirky behavior the last few issues of BIRTHRIGHT isn't that far from Eisenberg's. 

At any rate he's certainly closer to classic silver age Lex Luthor than Gene Hackman's  used car salesman real estate obsessed fool from the Donner film. He was entertaining to be sure playing off of Valerie Perrine and Ned Beatty but not at all Lex Luthor aside from the fact he was a middle aged stocky guy.

I think all of us would have preferred Spacey, but he was wasted on Superman Returns and trying to do a slightly meaner version of Hackman. "Land land land". Ugh. I'd take Eisenberg's Lex over that rehash any day.

----------


## Frontier

> I thought he was a pretty straight adaptation of Birthright/Secret Origins Lex. Maybe some Lex Jr. thrown in.


I never got that at all, unless you're referring to his Smallville period.

----------


## Jokerz79

> This is your opinion, so it is what it is, and, ofc, that's fine. Still, I just don't get it.
> 
> 1) The MCU movies are almost all by the numbers, and by committee, blockbusters. I see "heart" in IM1, Cap 1-2, Avengers, and GotG1. Other than that it's their usual "let's make them laugh so that they don't look deeper than the surface" that fits with their MO to purposely not challenge their audience. Civil War, to me, was the epitome of that. 
> 
> 2) Cavil, Affleck, and Gadot....don't look like Supes, Bats, and WW? Yes, RDJ was born to play Stark, but anybody could play Cap. Evans does a great job, obviously, but I could see Henry Cavil, Chris Pine, Armie Hammer, Jon Hamm, Ben Foster, etc doing at least as good. Even Jesse's Lex is VERY much inspred by the comics, yet because he's not Timm's Lex (which is the version we've seen ever since, in all media) he's "not Lex"?
> 
> 3) With Supes, and Bats, it's clearly just not the versions most expected, or wanted, honestly....but how/why does that make them problematic? The themes are still present, but they're presented in a clearly more "realistic" fashion. 
> 
> Again, it's all opinions, but I don't get it.


I felt Civil War did well getting it's message across and I could see both sides and understand why they felt that way. I also felt Iron Man 3 and GOTG 2 did good exploring PTSD and Child Abuse and what constitutes a family. Are the MCU films formulaic? Yes I personally view most like old school James Bond films which I love. But they do add some character development and touching moments every now and then.

----------


## Ascended

> I hope JL does well but with the DCEU I am so emotionally uninvested in this universe. This is the first Justice League movie, I should be pumped beyond belief but I just don't really care and it sucks.


I'm largely there with you.

I loved Man of Steel. Loved Wonder Woman. Thought Suicide Squad was decent (it seems to get better with subsequent viewings). But BvS....even though I understand on an intellectual level what Snyder was going for and how it fits together, and I quite enjoyed the film up to the title fight, I had to watch Superman get the sh*t beat out of him by a dickhead in a tin suit, and the only reason he didn't get murdered right then was because he begged. No amount of rationalization has made up for the emotional gut punch of that fight. And I haven't cared about a DC film since (even though WW was damn good, I didn't care a whit until I was dragged to the theater). 

My wife and son are gonna drag me to JL anyway, as they both really want to see it. And I really hope it blows me away. But as it stands I have no f**ks to give.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm largely there with you.
> 
> I loved Man of Steel. Loved Wonder Woman. Thought Suicide Squad was decent (it seems to get better with subsequent viewings). But BvS....even though I understand on an intellectual level what Snyder was going for and how it fits together, and I quite enjoyed the film up to the title fight, I had to watch Superman get the sh*t beat out of him by a dickhead in a tin suit, and the only reason he didn't get murdered right then was because he begged. No amount of rationalization has made up for the emotional gut punch of that fight. And I haven't cared about a DC film since. 
> 
> My wife and son are gonna drag me to JL anyway, as they both really want to see it. And I really hope it blows me away. But as it stands I have no f**ks to give.


He. Did. NOT. Beg. Not for himself, at any rate. He begged for an innocent woman's life. Something EVERY version of Superman would do if necessary.

----------


## Ascended

> He. Did. NOT. Beg. Not for himself, at any rate. He begged for an innocent woman's life. Something EVERY version of Superman would do if necessary.


I know. You and I have had this discussion before. And you're completely right about pretty much everything. It doesnt matter. I cannot make myself get past it. Like I said, intellectually I know what Snyder was doing and I largely agree with your analysis.....but emotionally? I hate what they did and how they did it.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I never got that at all, unless you're referring to his Smallville period.


Yeah that part of it.




> I know. You and I have had this discussion before. And you're completely right about pretty much everything. It doesnt matter. I cannot make myself get past it. Like I said, intellectually I know what Snyder was doing and I largely agree with your analysis.....but emotionally? I hate what they did and how they did it.


It definitely marked you.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Dave the Film Junkee makes a good point about the cuts. 

Apparently, these test screenings feature unfinished special effects and all the other telltale signs of being unfinished cuts of the film. Thus? Just because one test screening had Iris and Lex's appearances cut doesn't mean that they're guaranteed to be removed. They could be testing various cuts to see what works best. If they decide that keeping Lex and Iris' appearances in the movie works better? Back in they'll go. 

See for yourself.

----------


## Confuzzled

Didn't the Iris actress say she was in a special effects heavy scene or something? I wouldn't be surprised if the effects weren't done for that scene hence not included in the assembly cut.

Lex was rumored to be foreshadowing for a sequel so it isn't surprising if they cut him out to keep their options open. Either way not a big deal.

----------


## Jokerz79

My 3 biggest problems with BvS

Lex I just hated that Lex.

Save Martha I know so far these sound petty but that was eye roll worthy for me and I just couldn't take it seriously.

Last I get why Batman hated Superman it was actually well developed in the story. But Superman's reason for wanting Batman to stop wasn't IMO. If he just disliked him for his irrational hate of him fine. But wanting Batman to stop because he was a killer and vigilante was hypocritical to me given his body count and the satellite scene at the end of Man of Steel. I mean this Superman is a vigilante defying the United States Government too.

----------


## Agent Z

> My 3 biggest problems with BvS
> 
> Lex I just hated that Lex.
> 
> Save Martha I know so far these sound petty but that was eye roll worthy for me and I just couldn't take it seriously.
> 
> Last I get why Batman hated Superman it was actually well developed in the story. But Superman's reason for wanting Batman to stop wasn't IMO. If he just disliked him for his irrational hate of him fine. But wanting Batman to stop because he was a killer and vigilante was hypocritical to me given his body count and the satellite scene at the end of Man of Steel. I mean this Superman is a vigilante defying the United States Government too.


Superman's body count begins with Zod and ends with Doomsday. Two deaths in two movies is actually less than most movie superheroes and even less than most comic versions of Superman. And unlike Clark who only killed when pushed to it, Bruce was actively going out of his way to kill people. Superman mostly limited himself to natural disasters or accidents and as both movies have shown, has no problem surrendering to government authority. Batman has no such standards

----------


## manofsteel1979

> My 3 biggest problems with BvS
> 
> Lex I just hated that Lex.
> 
> Save Martha I know so far these sound petty but that was eye roll worthy for me and I just couldn't take it seriously.
> 
> Last I get why Batman hated Superman it was actually well developed in the story. But Superman's reason for wanting Batman to stop wasn't IMO. If he just disliked him for his irrational hate of him fine. But wanting Batman to stop because he was a killer and vigilante was hypocritical to me given his body count and the satellite scene at the end of Man of Steel. I mean this Superman is a vigilante defying the United States Government too.


Well, in the theatrical cut, you have a point in regards to Superman's motivation to go after Batman, but the extended cut builds a far more logical case for why Supes wanted to take out Bats.

And... Taking out superpowerd beings that could literally break the planet in half with lethal force as a last resort is far different than a masked vigilante just will nilly killing thugs and Street punks when they could have just been detained. Zod left Supes no choice and Doomsday was just essentially a living weapon of destruction. Unless of course you count all the people that died in the Black Zero assault and as a result of Zod throwing Supes through buildings as being  Supermans fault, Because if you are, you are really stretching things. The only one responsible is Zod and his crew. They attacked Earth with the intention of slaughtering billions. They only managed to kill a few thousand Because Superman ( with the aid of the military) stopped him.

----------


## Ascended

> It definitely marked you.


It definitely did. I was actually enjoying the movie up to that fight.

----------


## Buried Alien

> It definitely did. I was actually enjoying the movie up to that fight.


Did you know it was coming?  Even if you conscientiously tried to remain spoiler free before seeing the film, it was difficult to dodge the idea that a Superman vs. Batman fight was going to be a feature (it's in the title, after all).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## TheSeaDragon

At least there is discussion about the DECEU and different ponit of view. In the TV  FILM forum is just bandwagon hate

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Jett from Batman On Film is at it again. Says he has sources that inform him that JL is no good.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Well, in the theatrical cut, you have a point in regards to Superman's motivation to go after Batman, but the extended cut builds a far more logical case for why Supes wanted to take out Bats.
> 
> And... Taking out superpowerd beings that could literally break the planet in half with lethal force as a last resort is far different than a masked vigilante just will nilly killing thugs and Street punks when they could have just been detained. Zod left Supes no choice and Doomsday was just essentially a living weapon of destruction. Unless of course you count all the people that died in the Black Zero assault and as a result of Zod throwing Supes through buildings as being  Supermans fault, Because if you are, you are really stretching things. The only one responsible is Zod and his crew. They attacked Earth with the intention of slaughtering billions. They only managed to kill a few thousand Because Superman ( with the aid of the military) stopped him.


Even with the Ultimate Cut it boils down to Superman not liking that Batman is a killer and vigilante and that Superman doesn't have the authority to judge IMO. When Zod threatened Martha Superman took the fight to the heart of Smallville. I just see this Superman as one who doesn't care about collateral damage and in BvS the government considered him a vigilante so I didn't again see where he was much different. Superman is one of my favorite characters but if he's wrong IMO I'm going to say he's wrong.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Jett from Batman On Film is at it again. Says he has sources that inform him that JL is no good.


give me a break.

----------


## Ascended

> Did you know it was coming?  If you conscientiously tried to remain spoiler free before seeing the film, it was difficult to dodge that idea that a Superman vs. Batman fight was going to be a feature (it's in the title, after all).
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I did avoid spoilers, as I do with all the films I'm really excited about. I keep up with the news until the first full trailer hits, and then I block everything else out. Given how often I post here, it's difficult, but I became very good at spoiler-dodging with Man of Steel.  :Smile:  

But given the name of the film and the knowledge that DKR played a big role in its inspiration, I knew the fight was almost certain. I also stumbled upon the fact Doomsday was involved so I assumed Clark was going to die at the end of the film (otherwise what's the point of using Doomsday?) 

I had some small hope that they wouldn't go for the obvious and low-brow Super-Bat fight. I knew I was deluding myself even then, but I still hoped. Maybe they'd just keep things to a philosophical argument, maybe with a couple "Hulk-Thor" sucker punches for good measure. I figured that wouldn't happen and we'd get a full on fight, but even then I expected WB to have it end in a draw. Clearly I gave them more credit than I should have.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I did avoid spoilers, as I do with all the films I'm really excited about. I keep up with the news until the first full trailer hits, and then I block everything else out. Given how often I post here, it's difficult, but I became very good at spoiler-dodging with Man of Steel.  
> 
> But given the name of the film and the knowledge that DKR played a big role in its inspiration, I knew the fight was almost certain. I also stumbled upon the fact Doomsday was involved so I assumed Clark was going to die at the end of the film (otherwise what's the point of using Doomsday?) 
> 
> I had some small hope that they wouldn't go for the obvious and low-brow Super-Bat fight. I knew I was deluding myself even then, but I still hoped. Maybe they'd just keep things to a philosophical argument, maybe with a couple "Hulk-Thor" sucker punches for good measure. I figured that wouldn't happen and we'd get a full on fight, but even then I expected WB to have it end in a draw. Clearly I gave them more credit than I should have.


I was almost expecting a frame-by-frame, shot-by-shot cinematic remake of the fight from THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS comic book, so I'm glad Snyder, et. al., didn't try to clone TDKR *that* literally.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Jett from Batman On Film is at it again. Says he has sources that inform him that JL is no good.


The same sources who told him Wonder Woman was no good, I imagine. 

Never change internet!

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Jett from Batman On Film is at it again. Says he has sources that inform him that JL is no good.


The same guy who has pretty much hated the idea of a extended DC universe even before MOS was a thing who wants to go back to the days of self contained Batman films being WB's only Superhero offerings, and who swore Wonder Woman was a disaster.

Yeah...We should probably ignore him.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Even with the Ultimate Cut it boils down to Superman not liking that Batman is a killer and vigilante and that Superman doesn't have the authority to judge IMO. When Zod threatened Martha Superman took the fight to the heart of Smallville. I just see this Superman as one who doesn't care about collateral damage and in BvS the government considered him a vigilante so I didn't again see where he was much different. Superman is one of my favorite characters but if he's wrong IMO I'm going to say he's wrong.


Superman very much cares about collateral damage. This is evidenced by the fact that in BvS, he goes to great lengths to avoid collateral damage. He learned from the mistakes he made in MOS. Taking the fight to Smallville was just an overestimation of his strength as he charged Zod to protect his mother. The damage in Smallville and Metropolis was mostly the result of his enemies. By the time of BvS, he'd clearly learned how to minimize collateral damage. Batman, on the other hand, was assaulting, torturing, and (supposedly) getting them murdered in prison. Superman just had a talk with a woman who told him Batman had somehow rigged the justice system to the point where he and he alone determined who lives and who dies. 

Superman made some mistakes and hurt people. Batman was hurting people through direct and malicious action (to Superman's mind.) That's the difference.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Even with the Ultimate Cut it boils down to Superman not liking that Batman is a killer and vigilante and that Superman doesn't have the authority to judge IMO. When Zod threatened Martha Superman took the fight to the heart of Smallville. I just see this Superman as one who doesn't care about collateral damage and in BvS the government considered him a vigilante so I didn't again see where he was much different. Superman is one of my favorite characters but if he's wrong IMO I'm going to say he's wrong.


I would like to point out that before his fight in Smallville and Metropolis he learnt to fly a few days ago. He never took part in a fight before. He was never tested like this. During the fight he was outmatched and outgunned. It would be like trying to run while learning to walk. Such a thing was always going to be messy. I am ready to give him leeway. He did save the the world.

In Bvs he was more experienced. He tried to minimize damage.

Government while suspicious of Superman did not have problems with him until the desert incident. 

Superman did not kill or maim criminals or brand them. It is a gross attack on civil liberties on which everyone was turning a blind eye. Especially the authorities did not care for Batman.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I would like to point out that before his fight in Smallville and Metropolis he learnt to fly a few days ago. He never took part in a fight before. He was never tested like this. During the fight he was outmatched and outgunned. It would be like trying to run while learning to walk. Such a thing was always going to be messy. I am ready to give him leeway. He did save the the world.
> 
> In Bvs he was more experienced. He tried to minimize damage.
> 
> Government while suspicious of Superman did not have problems with him until the desert incident. 
> 
> Superman did not kill or maim criminals or brand them. It is a gross attack on civil liberties on which everyone was turning a blind eye. Especially the authorities did not care for Batman.


Exactly.  The Superman in MOS was literally only Superman , like, a day before being thrust head first into a battle for the fate of Earth. All he had done up to that point was use his powers to help people. He had never even thrown a punch before, let alone fought a full fight. Mistakes were going to be made. He made them in the Smallville battle. The only real destruction he's responsible personally for in the entire film was destroying the Bully's truck at the diner ,and the grain silo and  gas station, and only the truck was a calculated decision. Literally all the other destruction in the movie is purely laid at the feet of Zod and his cronies.Destruction that would have been  planet wide if not for Superman. He saved the world, just as Superman ALWAYS does.

Now agree Snyder and Goyer over did the destruction porn in the final act, and they should have had a few scenes after ZOD'S  death to show Superman helping recover and  even rebuild Metropolis in  the aftermath of the chaos, but unlike the Man of Muhrdurr! Not muh Superman" zealots, many of whom already had their knives out for the movie the moment it was clear this was not going to be a rehash of the Donner films, I don't ascribe DCEU Superman to be a mass murdering monster, Because I actually go by what the was shown in context. Superman was a hero in MOS.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Really missed this thread and did not find a discussion on Gavin O'Connor helming Suicide Squad 2. Treatment written by Zak Penn. Hopefully optimistic based on that.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Really missed this thread and did not find a discussion on Gavin O'Connor helming Suicide Squad 2. Treatment written by Zak Penn. Hopefully optimistic based on that.


The raw materials are there. They just have to use them. Robbie, Smith, Courtney and Davis are each great as Harley, Deadshot, Boomer & Waller. Flagg was utterly forgettable, but he was a last minute recasting when Tom Hardy had to pull out due to a scheduling conflict. 

My advice, kill Flagg off in Act 1, bring in Bronze Tiger and Nightshade and make sure you have a good script before you start shooting.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> The raw materials are there. They just have to use them. Robbie, Smith, Courtney and Davis are each great as Harley, Deadshot, Boomer & Waller. Flagg was utterly forgettable, but he was a last minute recasting when Tom Hardy had to pull out due to a scheduling conflict. 
> 
> My advice, kill Flagg off in Act 1, bring in Bronze Tiger and Nightshade and make sure you have a good script before you start shooting.


Yes, hope we won't see much of Flag, Croc or Katana again. Bronze Tiger and Nightshade would be sweet but I don't want too much magic and Nightshade might bring that. There was no need for too much magic in Avengers despite Scarlet Witch. SS 2 should be more war/spy/crime stuff.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Yes, hope we won't see much of Flag, Croc or Katana again. Bronze Tiger and Nightshade would be sweet but I don't want too much magic and Nightshade might bring that. There was no need for too much magic in Avengers despite Scarlet Witch. SS 2 should be more war/spy/crime stuff.


I think Croc & Katana are salvageable if they are given something to do, aside from stand around looking cool. Flagg, on the other hand, is just miscast. He needs to be able to stand toe to toe with this band of crazies and that actor just couldn’t pull it off, Robbie & Smith blew him off the screen every single time. With Hardy, that definitely wouldn’t have been an issue.

----------


## Confuzzled

Wasn't Ostrander's Flagg Jr. out of his depth with the Squad anyway?

----------


## Agent Z

> Yes, hope we won't see much of Flag, Croc or Katana again. Bronze Tiger and Nightshade would be sweet but I don't want too much magic and Nightshade might bring that. There was no need for too much magic in Avengers despite Scarlet Witch. SS 2 should be more war/spy/crime stuff.


There wasn't much magic in Suicide Squad save for the main villain being magical. There isn't any more magic in it than any of the Avengers movies. Also, Nightshade and Enchantress have been characters in Suicide Squad so they're hardly inappropriate

----------


## Carabas

> Wasn't Ostrander's Flagg Jr. out of his depth with the Squad anyway?


Not really.
He had a gazillion tons of emotional baggage that made him utterly unfit for command, but he was still a hardass that commanded with an iron fist.

----------


## Agent Z

> Not really.
> *He had a gazillion tons of emotional baggage that made him utterly unfit for command,* but he was still a hardass that commanded with an iron fist.


Doesn't that mean he was out of his depth?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> There wasn't much magic in Suicide Squad save for the main villain being magical. There isn't any more magic in it than any of the Avengers movies. Also, Nightshade and Enchantress have been characters in Suicide Squad so they're hardly inappropriate


Its just not the direction I'd want them to go in after the first movie. Yes, Nightshade, no magic.

----------


## Carabas

> Doesn't that mean he was out of his depth?


Not really.

He could deal with the Squad just fine. He wasn't overwhelmed by the crazies and the killers. He could deal just fine with being up against JLA level threats.
He can handle all of that. It's himself he was having problems with.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Doesn't that mean he was out of his depth?


Internally, yes, but externally, he put on a good front. The guy from the movies? He's out of his depth in every possible way.

----------


## Agent Z

> Internally, yes, but externally, he put on a good front. The guy from the movies? He's out of his depth in every possible way.


Didn't seem like he had much of an issue in the movie

----------


## Carabas

> Didn't seem like he had much of an issue in the movie


He pretty much relinquished command to Harley and Floyd.

----------


## GrifterWC

I wonder how they will explain Harley still being on the team since the last we saw Joker had come to rescue her.

----------


## Agent Z

> He pretty much relinquished command to Harley and Floyd.


Their "command" seemed little more than giving a motivational speech and saying Enchantress was evil

----------


## Lightning Rider

*In an interview with Billboard, Justice League composer Danny Elfman stated that he would be bringing back John Williams' classic Superman theme for Justice League.

Elfman stated, "I also had two minutes where I had the pleasure of saying, 'Lets do John Williams Superman. and that for me was heaven, because now I have a melody to twist, and Im using it in an actually very dark way, in a dark moment. Its the kind of thing that some fans will notice. Some wont. Its a moment where were really not sure whose side hes on."*

http://www.billboard.com/articles/ne...sant-interview

Sounds like an interesting move, probably relevant to his resurrection, but I hope his full-fledged return has the new MoS theme in it too. I love that theme.

----------


## MosSuperman

Is he just using it for that specific scene or is Hans' score on MoS getting thrown in the trash? Sucks if that's the case.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> *In an interview with Billboard, Justice League composer Danny Elfman stated that he would be bringing back John Williams' classic Superman theme for Justice League.
> 
> Elfman stated, "I also had two minutes where I had the pleasure of saying, 'Let’s do John Williams’ Superman.” and that for me was heaven, because now I have a melody to twist, and I’m using it in an actually very dark way, in a dark moment. It’s the kind of thing that some fans will notice. Some won’t. It’s a moment where we’re really not sure whose side he’s on."*
> 
> http://www.billboard.com/articles/ne...sant-interview
> 
> Sounds like an interesting move, probably relevant to his resurrection, but I hope his full-fledged return has the new MoS theme in it too. I love that theme.


Most likely it will have that as well as the Elfman version of Williams' theme for Supes.

----------


## FishyZombie

> Look at it this way, James Bond film franchise is still using the same theme song they've had since Doctor No. To this day, the current movies still homages the old movies, even though the Ian Flemings novels are the real source material. And you know what? It still works! And more importantly the franchise has managed to evolve. They're doing more serious, modern and gritty things and redefining the James Bond character himself. All while keeping the classic score. Basically what WB tried/trying to do with Superman, only far more successfully.


my thoughts on bringing back the Williams score

----------


## gbshabo

Woah, that's actually a rather big spoiler Elfman let out. Was it ever confirmed that Superman would come back and be confused about whose side he's fighting for?

----------


## Clark_Kent

I'm okay with Superman coming back confused, in a daze, and thrashing about because of it...as long as it's brief and Lois becomes "the key" and snaps him out of it. 

If it's a whole fight scene & the league is able to restrain him by force, I'm not sure how I feel about it. If they can take him down without Kryptonite, then it kinda devalues him as the powerhouse he is, you know? My hope is that the League is outmatched without him, but he puts them just over the top to win the day when he returns. Essence of team. You don't win without a great quarterback. I'd prefer Lois snapping him out of it compared to, say, Diana's lasso. 

As for Elfman bringing back the score in some way, I'd prefer he didn't. This Superman has a theme, so let's use it. I'm only ok with bringing it back as long as he also brings back his Batman '89 theme as well.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm okay with Superman coming back confused, in a daze, and thrashing about because of it...as long as it's brief and Lois becomes "the key" and snaps him out of it. 
> 
> If it's a whole fight scene & the league is able to restrain him by force, I'm not sure how I feel about it. If they can take him down without Kryptonite, then it kinda devalues him as the powerhouse he is, you know? My hope is that the League is outmatched without him, but he puts them just over the top to win the day when he returns. Essence of team. You don't win without a great quarterback. I'd prefer Lois snapping him out of it compared to, say, Diana's lasso. 
> 
> As for Elfman bringing back the score in some way, I'd prefer he didn't. This Superman has a theme, so let's use it. I'm only ok with bringing it back as long as he also brings back his Batman '89 theme as well.


I suspect the plan was always for Clark to come back and have a fight scene with the League. Either as a full-fledged pawn of Apokolips or just from the shock of his resurrection. Given the rumors about WB wanting to lighten the tone I'd imagine that whichever way it was originally planned out, it'll be downplayed to a short scene in the final cut. I'd like to think we'll get to see Clark knock the sh*t out of the League in any case. After the BvS fight, they owe us nothing less.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

Did anyone seriously expect them to *not* use Superman's resurrection as an excuse for a fight scene between him and the rest of the League?

Hell yes I want to see a Superman vs. The League fight with a twisted version of John Williams theme playing in the background.

Do I want to see an entire movie of that? No, and we won't be getting one either.

----------


## Elmo

> Woah, that's actually a rather big spoiler Elfman let out. Was it ever confirmed that Superman would come back and be confused about whose side he's fighting for?


He said the audience would be confused, not Superman. The way he describes it makes it seem like it won't be anything huge or plot heavy

----------


## batnbreakfast

How could I miss Danny Elfman composing the score? Did it change halfway through?

What's your best case scenarios in terms of what JL's success means for upcoming adaptions? Guess we won't have Avengers numbers yet but let's say JL will surprise us and lots of stuff is greenlit or WB'll try some experiments (still kinda surprised we'll get Aquaman and 2 Joker movies in a Multiverse)

----------


## Styles

Geoff Johns & Diane Nelson Explain DCEUs Continuity Strategy

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Geoff Johns & Diane Nelson Explain DCEU’s Continuity Strategy


This may be a good idea. One of the most common criticisms levelled against the DCEU by MCU fans is that the MCU "laid the groundwork" for their cinematic universe before really bringing things together.

They might be right. So if they stop trying to weave everything together RIGHT NOW and just put out some good movies to repair their image, that could help them get people excited for when they DO finally determine how best to bring everything back together under one banner.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> This may be a good idea. One of the most common criticisms levelled against the DCEU by MCU fans is that the MCU "laid the groundwork" for their cinematic universe before really bringing things together.
> 
> They might be right. So if they stop trying to weave everything together RIGHT NOW and just put out some good movies to repair their image, that could help them get people excited for when they DO finally determine how best to bring everything back together under one banner.


The problem is that people are working under the impression that the DCU and the MU are analogous.  They're two different universes that operate differently.  Marvel was created to be a shared universe, whereas DC is a collection of fiefdoms brought together as a shared universe.  Hence, I'd expect the DCEU to be a loose shared universe, where the heroes clearly know of each other and exist in a universe, but their solo films are left alone to be solo films focused on the hero, as opposed to servicing some overarching story to be paid off in a team film.  

DC heroes often exist in their own spheres and rarely rely on other heroes outside their bubble bursting in to help with a problem.  Sure, they get together to work as JLers, but then they all head out to their respective towns across the country or globe to get back to their lives.  It's just like us.  We often try to put a line between our work lives and our personal lives.  Betty in HR doesn't really need to know what I was up to Friday through Sunday.  Yeah, I was out saving the world again, but that's just another weekend.

I often imagine what the JLers talk about in the mess hall of the Watchtower.  Cyborg is talking about how he and the Metal Men stopped an invasion from Earth X into Markovia on Thursday.  Flash Tommy-tops by saying his Thursday was spent going back in time to prevent himself from saving his mother and sparking a global war between Amazons and Atlanteans that leaves the planet burned out husk.  I can appreciate both heroes without an overarching universal story.

----------


## Buried Alien

> The problem is that people are working under the impression that the DCU and the MU are analogous.  They're two different universes that operate differently.  Marvel was created to be a shared universe, whereas DC is a collection of fiefdoms brought together as a shared universe.  Hence, I'd expect the DCEU to be a loose shared universe, where the heroes clearly know of each other and exist in a universe, but their solo films are left alone to be solo films focused on the hero, as opposed to servicing some overarching story to be paid off in a team film.  
> 
> DC heroes often exist in their own spheres and rarely rely on other heroes outside their bubble bursting in to help with a problem.  Sure, they get together to work as JLers, but then they all head out to their respective towns across the country or globe to get back to their lives.  It's just like us.  We often try to put a line between our work lives and our personal lives.  Betty in HR doesn't really need to know what I was up to Friday through Sunday.  Yeah, I was out saving the world again, but that's just another weekend.
> 
> I often imagine what the JLers talk about in the mess hall of the Watchtower.  Cyborg is talking about how he and the Metal Men stopped an invasion from Earth X into Markovia on Thursday.  Flash Tommy-tops by saying his Thursday was spent going back in time to prevent himself from saving his mother and sparking a global war between Amazons and Atlanteans that leaves the planet burned out husk.  I can appreciate both heroes without an overarching universal story.


Yet even so, DCEU has done its best to weave interstitial tissue among its released films.  BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE took scenes directly out of MAN OF STEEL, and projected forward to JUSTICE LEAGUE and introduced the rest of the League (before the League is even formed).  SUICIDE SQUAD and WONDER WOMAN referenced events in BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I don't understand how today's news about continuity jives with The Lash's first big screen solo being Flashpoint.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I kind of wish DC had kept quiet about all this elseworlds / joker stuff until JL came out. If JL is good the public would likely be more welcoming/interested when it comes to DC's plans going forward.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Yet even so, DCEU has done its best to weave interstitial tissue among its released films.  BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE took scenes directly out of MAN OF STEEL, and projected forward to JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA and introduced the rest of the League (before the League is even formed).  SUICIDE SQUAD and WONDER WOMAN referenced events in BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


And I'm not against that.  I just don't need an overarching story to tie every together, a la Thanos in the MCU.

----------


## ZoomZolomonZoom

> The problem is that people are working under the impression that the DCU and the MU are analogous.  They're two different universes that operate differently.  Marvel was created to be a shared universe, whereas DC is a collection of fiefdoms brought together as a shared universe.  Hence, I'd expect the DCEU to be a loose shared universe, where the heroes clearly know of each other and exist in a universe, but their solo films are left alone to be solo films focused on the hero, as opposed to servicing some overarching story to be paid off in a team film.  
> 
> DC heroes often exist in their own spheres and rarely rely on other heroes outside their bubble bursting in to help with a problem.  Sure, they get together to work as JLers, but then they all head out to their respective towns across the country or globe to get back to their lives.  It's just like us.  We often try to put a line between our work lives and our personal lives.  Betty in HR doesn't really need to know what I was up to Friday through Sunday.  Yeah, I was out saving the world again, but that's just another weekend.
> 
> I often imagine what the JLers talk about in the mess hall of the Watchtower.  Cyborg is talking about how he and the Metal Men stopped an invasion from Earth X into Markovia on Thursday.  Flash Tommy-tops by saying his Thursday was spent going back in time to prevent himself from saving his mother and sparking a global war between Amazons and Atlanteans that leaves the planet burned out husk.  I can appreciate both heroes without an overarching universal story.


Wise words indeed. Just to play Devil's Advocate though, Marvel ironically has (or had) much less incentive to do the shared universe model compared to DC. I mean, in DC the Justice League and it's respective members are all the best and brightest the company has to offer. That is why a shared-universe leading up to multiple Justice League films makes sense, outside of the Teen Titans DC isn't known for it's properties that are unrelated to the Justice League. 

Marvel on the other hand isn't quite like that. Only a few of their popular characters are part of The Avengers and the rest are either on their own or distributed between the X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc. That's why they were able to do these big team movies way before shared universes were popularized because Marvel itself didn't bulk up the Avengers with all of their All Star IPs the same way DC did. 

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything it's just kind of odd that the live action universes turned out the way they did when the source material almost feels like it would dictate the opposite. xD

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I kind of wish DC had kept quiet about all this elseworlds / joker stuff until JL came out. If JL is good the public would likely be more welcoming/interested when it comes to DC's plans going forward.


I don't think DC/WB officially announced the Elseworlds/Joker origin stuff, if I recall. I think all of that has just been rumors based on "leaks". They could absolutely happen of course, but DC specifically have been mum on anything not revealed at SDCC.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Wise words indeed. Just to play Devil's Advocate though, Marvel ironically has (or had) much less incentive to do the shared universe model compared to DC. I mean, in DC the Justice League and it's respective members are all the best and brightest the company has to offer. That is why a shared-universe leading up to multiple Justice League films makes sense, outside of the Teen Titans DC isn't known for it's properties that are unrelated to the Justice League. 
> 
> Marvel on the other hand isn't quite like that. Only a few of their popular characters are part of The Avengers and the rest are either on their own or distributed between the X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc. That's why they were able to do these big team movies way before shared universes were popularized because Marvel itself didn't bulk up the Avengers with all of their All Star IPs the same way DC did. 
> 
> I'm not trying to argue with you or anything it's just kind of odd that the live action universes turned out the way they did when the source material almost feels like it would dictate the opposite. xD


Well not odd at all. Marvel didn't own the movie rights to their A-List franchises like X-Men, Spider-Man, FF etc. so all they were left with were the Avengers, not quite the top dog before the movies. Since something radical needed to be done with that brand to make it exciting like never before, they came up with the shared universe concept.

DC is at an interesting point. They have rights to _all_ their holy cows and still have an option to further explore their IP's. It was for that reason that they never needed to follow the MCU formula despite what their detractors kept saying. I think it's important that movies feel like a standalone experience and I think it's why interest in the MCU has plateaued of late, as something like Civil War expects you to have watched at least 4 or 5 previous movies.

The loosely connected corners/fiefdoms structure that 52 is talking about will serve DC's movies the best. The Avengers may not have incredibly rich individual rogue's galleries, supporting casts, locations, storylines etc. which is the reason for this trend of another Avenger appearing in a film. But the Leaguers don't have that problem, with the exception of a recent addition from another team like Cyborg.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't understand how today's news about continuity jives with The Lash's first big screen solo being Flashpoint.


It may be Flashpoint in name only, with just a cameo or two from other Leaguers like Wonder Woman. Kiersey Clemons said that Iris West's backstory is now being revised and that they may have her come from a different time, so I think it is still majorly a Flash story.

----------


## Powertool

> Kiersey Clemons said that Iris West's backstory is now being revised and that they may have her come from a different time


Which, incidentally, would make it comic-compliant!  :EEK!:  At least if we look at pre-_Flash Rebirth_ Iris. I don't know anything about her current status.

----------


## Frontier

> Well not odd at all. Marvel didn't own the movie rights to their A-List franchises like X-Men, Spider-Man, FF etc. so all they were left with were the Avengers, not quite the top dog before the movies. Since something radical needed to be done with that brand to make it exciting like never before, they came up with the shared universe concept.
> 
> DC is at an interesting point. They have rights to _all_ their holy cows and still have an option to further explore their IP's. It was for that reason that they never needed to follow the MCU formula despite what their detractors kept saying. I think it's important that movies feel like a standalone experience and I think it's why interest in the MCU has plateaued of late, as something like Civil War expects you to have watched at least 4 or 5 previous movies.
> 
> The loosely connected corners/fiefdoms structure that 52 is talking about will serve DC's movies the best.* The Avengers may not have incredibly rich individual rogue's galleries, supporting casts, locations, storylines etc. which is the reason for this trend of another Avenger appearing in a film*. But the Leaguers don't have that problem, with the exception of a recent addition from another team like Cyborg.


Well, some of them do, even if they weren't used to their utmost extent in their solo films.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> It may be Flashpoint in name only, with just a cameo or two from other Leaguers like Wonder Woman. Kiersey Clemons said that Iris West's backstory is now being revised and that they may have her come from a different time, so I think it is still majorly a Flash story.


Lois's arc in flashpoint was pretty interesting, I could see them taking from that and putting Iris into flashpoint.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Wise words indeed. Just to play Devil's Advocate though, Marvel ironically has (or had) much less incentive to do the shared universe model compared to DC. I mean, in DC the Justice League and it's respective members are all the best and brightest the company has to offer. That is why a shared-universe leading up to multiple Justice League films makes sense, outside of the Teen Titans DC isn't known for it's properties that are unrelated to the Justice League. 
> 
> Marvel on the other hand isn't quite like that. Only a few of their popular characters are part of The Avengers and the rest are either on their own or distributed between the X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc. That's why they were able to do these big team movies way before shared universes were popularized because Marvel itself didn't bulk up the Avengers with all of their All Star IPs the same way DC did. 
> 
> I'm not trying to argue with you or anything it's just kind of odd that the live action universes turned out the way they did when the source material almost feels like it would dictate the opposite. xD


Well, the JL essentially revolves around the the Trinity.  Superman was introduced in Man of Steel, Batman took the lion's share of attention in BvS (where Wonder Woman was also introduced), and Diana just had her own blockbuster film.  What naturally follows is the JL, and after the JL we can follow other Leaguers like Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg.  MOS, BvS, and JL were supposed to be one story, according to Snyder.  Once it's done and the universe is established, DC should move forward with true stand-alone films that aren't concerned with reminding us every ten minutes that Cyborg knows Batman.  Hell, even the JL films should be stand-alone.

When the JL parts ways at the end of a mission, I want to follow Batman to his world of Gotham which shouldn't bothered with referencing JL adventures.  Batman, himself, often doesn't bother with it.  He stays focused on what's happening in Gotham, and if you've played the Arkham games, you know how easy it is to get lost in a place like Gotham.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Well not odd at all. Marvel didn't own the movie rights to their A-List franchises like X-Men, Spider-Man, FF etc. so all they were left with were the Avengers, not quite the top dog before the movies. Since something radical needed to be done with that brand to make it exciting like never before, *they came up with the shared universe concept.*


I'd say that Marvel borrowed from DC animation's playbook for a shared universe outside the comics and in other forms of entertainment.
The DCAU was a shared universe that lasted 14 years between the first episode of Batman: The Animated Series and the last episode of Justice League Unlimited, and included the cinematic Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I'd say that Marvel borrowed from DC animation's playbook for a shared universe outside the comics and in other forms of entertainment.
> The DCAU was a shared universe that lasted 14 years between the first episode of Batman: The Animated Series and the last episode of Justice League Unlimited, and included the cinematic Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.


Both companies were doing shared universes in their animation going back to the sixties with Marvel's The Marvel Super Heroes and DC with their Filmation Cartoons.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Both companies were doing shared universes in their animation going back to the sixties with Marvel's The Marvel Super Heroes and DC with their Filmation Cartoons.


That never occured to me. When they announced Iron Man and Hulk play in the same sandbox I thought, finally! Just like comics! They already did it for 60 + years

----------


## Jokerz79

> That never occured to me. When they announced Iron Man and Hulk play in the same sandbox I thought, finally! Just like comics! They already did it for 60 + years


Yeah all the characters in the old Marvel Super Heroes Cartoon from the sixties would pop up in each others cartoons same for DC with their Filmation Cartoons. In the 80's Hulk guested Starred from his cartoon in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends also Cap, Iron Man, and the X-Men all made appearances. The X-Men and Spider-Man did a crossover on Fox a year before Superman the Animated Series premièred and thus established Batman wasn't the only Superhero in the DCAU. The Marvel 90's cartoons use to cross over like crazy or have guest appearances. I believe Batman guest starred in the Superman radio show so they've been doing it since almost the beginning. The MCU is the first to go for it on the big screen and truly say hey look all our heroes live in the same universe for comics but radio and definitely animation has been doing it for decades.

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Frontier

So if they don't use the "Extended Universe" internally, what do they use  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## nightbird

> So if they don't use the "Extended Universe" internally, what do they use ?


DC Films? Justice League Universe?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Wow. We can now say JL is coming out next month... This is too soon, the hype hasn't even hit me yet!!

----------


## Johnny

> So if they don't use the "Extended Universe" internally, what do they use ?


DC Unlimited.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Johnny

> Wow. We can now say JL is coming out next month... This is too soon, the hype hasn't even hit me yet!!


I'm barely hyped about it tbh. I'm certainly not as apathetic towards JL as I was towards SS, but I feel like deep down I just don't care about that film. And I really think I shouldn't feel that way and yet...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm barely hyped about it tbh. I'm certainly not as apathetic towards JL as I was towards SS, but I feel like deep down I just don't care about that film. And I really thnk I shouldn't feel that way and yet...
> '


While I do care but ultimately I have stopped investing in it as fan I haven't been active on here much for example and I think that's why maybe I ain't as hyped. Tbh I kinda prefer it this way, being more "casual" doesn't feel like there is much pressure for me wanting the film to need to be good.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

It's sad and disappointing that I can't get hype for a JL movie that's right around the corner....

----------


## Assam

I have about as much hype for the Justice League movie as I do for wing day in my school's cafeteria. That is to say, I'm not excited and I probably won't partake in it, but there's a chance that I might. 

I've said this before, but Mera is legitimately the only part of any of this that looks good to me, and she'll probably be getting two minutes of screen time in this. 

Honestly, the night this comes out, I'll probably just get some friends together and watch the 1997 Justice League movie/ NBC pilot on DVD. It's probably way more enjoyable.

----------


## nightbird

I will be a positive force in negative ocean lol I see no reason to not be excited to see JL. It looks like a fun movie and I like all actors/characters.

----------


## Frontier

Leaked audition tapes seem to reveal that Freddy Freeman (Captain Marvel Jr.) will have a role in the _Shazam_ movie.



> Honestly, the night this comes out, I'll probably just get some friends together and watch the 1997 Justice League movie/ NBC pilot on DVD. It's probably way more enjoyable.


Even with my own apprehensions about the movie, I don't think I ever quite expected someone to say that  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Even with my own apprehensions about the movie, I don't think I ever quite expected someone to say that .


I've been laughing at that movie's awfulness since I was a kid. Just get a different group whose never seen it before together and it doesn't get old.

----------


## Sutekh

> I will be a positive force in negative ocean lol I see no reason to not be excited to see JL. It looks like a fun movie and I like all actors/characters.


I'll wait a week for reviews, not because I let other people inform whether or not I'm going to enjoy a movie (I love lots of deeply unpopular movies, like Green Lantern, and loathe some that sell like hotcakes, like the Transformers), but because I want to know if [speculation]Themiscrya gets fridged to upsell Steppenwolf.[/speculation]  That first half hour of Wonder Woman, set on the island, is quite literally the most amazing thing I've seen from DC on the big screen, all hopeful and colorful and awe-inspiring.

If they trash 'paradise island' (and kill a bunch of Amazons, to establish what a badass Darkseid's _flunky_ is), I'll pass on seeing it in theatres and just wait for it to hit Netflix or whatever.

I know that sounds 'one-issue voter-ish', but if DC literally trashes the one thing I really felt captured the inspiration and wonder of their heroic characters, to sell me more of the same bleak destruction porn that I don't like, it's just proof that I'm not their target audience and should stop watching stuff that's just going to bug me, not that they are doing something wrong, just that my tastes are not the demographic they are currently courting.  And that's fine.  Not everything in the world needs to be *for me.*   :Smile:   Every year, Hollywood pumps out *hundreds* of movies that I have zero interest in seeing.  It's okay if some of them are from DC (or Marvel, for that matter).

Otherwise, I'll go see it because I want to see what they do with Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and, to a lesser extent, the Flash, and I love, love, love superhero movies, in general, and want to support both DC and Marvel in the hopes of eventually seeing more stuff based on characters I love, like Vixen, Booster Gold, the Teen Titans, Young Justice, the Legion of Super-Heroes, the Justice Society/All-Star Squadron, etc.  If they don't have at least some success with their big 'trinity' character ensembles, there's probably even less of a chance of them eventually delving down into the characters I really want to see more of.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'm wicked apprehensive about this; I want to be excited, and a lot of this looks appealing, but I was burned pretty badly by the fallout of BvS and Suicide Squad. Even if I end up liking the movie, I do not want to deal with the possible shitstorm that will occur afterward. Because I still very much like MoS and think BvS is an interesting if flawed film, but it's exhausting having to debate their merits over and over again. I don't have the strength to deal with that again, so I'm praying for a hit. The troubled production isn't something that means anything either way for the final product, as some of the most successful and acclaimed movies of all time had miserable productions. 

Thank God for WW. I'm most confident in the sequel to that with Jenkins on board, and excited for the post-JL films. If it fails though, I worry about losing the cast, because no matter what else happens I really like all of them and want them to stick around for better films.

----------


## Assam

> If it fails though, I worry about losing the cast, because no matter what else happens I really like all of them and want them to stick around for better films.


Personal opinions on the actors based on what we've seen (I don't think I've given most of these): 

Cavil- Based on interviews, I think he could have made an excellent Superman. However, he's been given nothing to work with script wise, and awful direction. 
Affleck- He's...okay. I really don't get why everyone thinks he's so great in the role. 
Gadot- Yeah...yeah she's great. 
Miller- Based on the little we've seen, I don't quite hate his performance like I do Gustin's...but he's still annoying. 
Fisher- Basically nothing to judge him on. 
Momoa- Jason Momoa is awesome....and I still hate everything that's being done with Aquaman. 
Heard- So far? Peeeeeeeeeeeeeerfeeeeeeeeeect.  :Smile:

----------


## Sutekh

> Thank God for WW. I'm most confident in the sequel to that with Jenkins on board, and excited for the post-JL films. If it fails though, I worry about losing the cast, because no matter what else happens I really like all of them and want them to stick around for better films.


Same, for the most part.  I think Henry Cavill is probably the best *looking* Superman we've had, with that big comic-book superhero chest, but, paradoxically, the worst when it comes to how he always has to be scowling and is so rarely allowed to smile.  Chris Reeves, in the day, and Tyler Hoechlin, over on Supergirl, are day to his night, smiling all the time, by comparison.  I'm loving Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, as well, and have no quibbles on her account, either appearance or characterization.  Ben Affleck as Batman, eh.  I haven't really liked a Bat-Actor since the Kramer vs. Kramer dude who just played the Vulture.  (Gosh, I suck with names today...)  I want to love Mamoa as Aquaman, but he's coming across as kind of a quippy dude in the commercials, and I'm not sure I love that.  Aquaman has had a rough road gaining respect as a character/hero, and I'm not sure wha-hoo surf-stoner is the 'look' he needs right now.  Ezra as Flash, again, eh, he's hopefully not characterized as a total idiot like the one from the TV show and can come off as not only capable, but also *smart.*   :Smile: 

I have no opinion about Ray Fisher-as-Cyborg.  From the only trailers I've seen, he's literally 'the black guy in the background' and seems to not have any lines.  I would expect that to be different, if this is literally his origin story, but I imagine that the marketing department is motivated towards having maximum amounts of the fan-favorites / critical darlings in the trailer instead to build hype.

You can guess when one of the Justice Leaguer's gets less focus in the trailer than _Batman's car_ that marketing is involved.  Dem toys aren't gonna market themselves.   :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Cavill seems like he'd have been better accepted as Superman if he'd had more to work with or was in a universe that wasn't actively making it super-hard for him to actually be Superman. 

I may have had some issues with Batman's characterization in BvS, but even I'll readily admit Affleck is probably the closest we've gotten to comics Batman in the movies. 

Gadot has pretty firmly established that she *is* Wonder Woman by this point. 

Miller's Flash and Momoa's Aquaman seem fine for what they are, which is taking established characters and then pretty thoroughly revamping them even if there are certain recognizable aspects or elements still in there. 

But I think I'll ultimately prefer Grant Gustin's millennial Barry Allen to Miller's. Maybe because Millers' feels even more Wally-esque then Gustin. 

Honestly, my biggest issue with Fisher so far is the Cyborg design.

----------


## El_Gato

I'm torn on Aquaman! On one hand he looks awesome and fun but on the other hand I hate race swaps! Race swaps are so condescending!

----------


## Buried Alien

To paraphrase something recently posted by my friend Ilash in regards to STAR WARS movies, I do wonder what people want from their DCEU movies.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Assam

> To paraphrase something recently posted by my friend Ilash in regards to STAR WARS movies,* I do wonder what people want from their DCEU movies.*
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


A completely different slate of movies. 

Also a more comic accurate Aquaman.

----------


## Frontier

> A completely different slate of movies. 
> 
> *Also a more comic accurate Aquaman.*


As long as I can get that in the comics and other media, I can live with Momoa. 

Especially if everything else of the DCEU Aquaverse is as accurate as possible (like Mera).

----------


## El_Gato

Aquaman has a lame look so I can see why they changed it up for the films

----------


## Assam

> As long as I can get that in the comics and other media, I can live with Momoa. 
> 
> Especially if everything else of the DCEU Aquaverse is as accurate as possible (like Mera).


While I'm against changing most of a character's traits in adaptation in general, the most frustrating part in this case is how overly hard they're trying to make him "Kewl." 

And really, the amount of times I've had to hear, "Why are you against this? Aquaman sucks and now they're making him cool" has gotten under my skin pretty bad.

----------


## Assam

> Aquaman has a lame look so I can see why they changed it up for the films


Out of curiosity, what do you find "lame" about either of these looks? 

alex ross.jpg

harpoon.jpg

Far as I'm concerned, they're both awesome.

----------


## Frontier

> Out of curiosity, what do you find "lame" about either of these looks? 
> 
> Attachment 55460
> 
> Attachment 55461
> 
> Far as I'm concerned, they're both awesome.


I think the latter look has definitely had some influence on DCEU Aquaman.

----------


## Assam

> I think the latter look has definitely had some influence on DCEU Aquaman.


Very clearly. But I don't like how they altered that look, and my bigger problem is the personality.

----------


## Carabas

> Out of curiosity, what do you find "lame" about either of these looks? 
> 
> Attachment 55460


Pretty much everything about that looks just screams lame. Alex Ross managing to make it work does not reduce the lame. It's the exact same look he had in Super Friends.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Looking at Baywatch Jason Momoa pics, I think he actually could pull off the look of a more traditional Aquaman (though it would probably take an act of God or some other divine force to trim that beard and flowing mane of his)

Maybe we'll get a single scene flashback with the original Aquaman costume in his solo, similar to the Jester Suit Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Also a more comic accurate Aquaman.


It looks like they cherry picked things from various interpretations and tried to create something newish while retaining the iconic elements. That's what good adaptations are supposed to do. Whether or not the final product works remains to be seen, but I don't see anything overly inaccurate so far.

----------


## Frontier

> It looks like they cherry picked things from various interpretations and tried to create something newish while retaining the iconic elements. That's what good adaptations are supposed to do. Whether or not the final product works remains to be seen, but I don't see anything overly inaccurate so far.


Well, I can't really imagine any version of Aquaman saying "I dig it"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Well, I can't really imagine any version of Aquaman saying "I dig it" .


Maybe THIS one: 

dimaggio.jpg

But they'd say it much differently.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> But I think I'll ultimately prefer Grant Gustin's millennial Barry Allen to Miller's. Maybe because Millers' feels even more Wally-esque then Gustin.


I think Miller is doing a decent job of being Barry since he's not being intentionally funny, he's being awkward and corny. Wally is more sarcastic and occasionally quippy. Miller's Barry doesn't strike me as darkly witty.

Gustin's Flash honestly doesn't seem to have any fleshed out sense of humor.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Gustin's Flash honestly doesn't seem to have any fleshed out sense of humor.


You said "fleshed out". hah

----------


## Robotman

> I think Miller is doing a decent job of being Barry since he's not being intentionally funny, he's being awkward and corny. Wally is more sarcastic and occasionally quippy. Miller's Barry doesn't strike me as darkly witty.
> 
> Gustin's Flash honestly doesn't seem to have any fleshed out sense of humor.


Yeah I don’t see Miller playing The Flash like Wally at all. In fact I see him as doing a pretty good job of modernizing the classic Silver Age nerd Barry Allen. Gustin’s Barry is prone to quips and smart aleck behavior similar to Wally. 1956 bow tie wearing comic book reading Barry Allen was just kind of an awkward and serious nerd. Miller’s Barry seems like a modern version with of that guy who doesn’t have a lot of confidence in himself and has just “pushed some people and run away.”

----------


## The Kid

Not gonna lie, I'm also kind of a nervous about their changes to Aquaman. That said, I think Mamoa is charismatic as hell and he'll probably be able to pull it off. That dude is seriously pure sex appeal

Tbh, Aquaman is my most anticipated movie right now. I got faith in James Wan and behind the scenes looks cool. I do hope Mamoa cuts his hair at some point lol.

----------


## Johnny

> I'm torn on Aquaman! On one hand he looks awesome and fun but on the other hand I hate race swaps! Race swaps are so condescending!


I mean take it as an Elseworlds Aquaman. That's basically what it is anyway. I don't mind the race swap(if we can really call it that, since Momoa has a white mother), it's the character design that used to bother me. I don't like the tattoos but it goes back to the Elseworlds thing. I remember when the first poster was released, Jason Fabok tweeted it was the perfect AU design, he said it looked like he had the scalemail tattooed on his body and it does. I gotta see him in action.

----------


## Sutekh

> Very clearly. But I don't like how they altered that look, and my bigger problem is the personality.


Ditto.  He's part Atlantean, I don't care if he's blonde or black haired, or short haired or long haired or friggin' bald with blue skin and hints of scales.  His appearance matters far less to me than him being kind of majestic, with the same sort of aloof presence that Gal Gadot occasionally pulls off (and totally lacking her occasional naïve charm...).  Mamoa (as Khal Drogo and Conan) has shown the sort of the sort of presence that I'd want to see from the king of Atlantis.  The trailers with his 'I dig it' and surfing down the side of buildings, not so much, I'm getting more of a Vin-Diesel-as-XXX-plays-Aquaman vibe, and I'm _not_ digging it.

As for costumes, again, whatever.  I liked his blue outfit, so what do I care if his current getup is 'faithful' to the orange and green ensemble?   :Smile: 

I kind of feel like I did many years ago, walking into that first X-Men movie, muttering to myself, 'Please don't suck, please don't suck...'

I like comic book superhero movies, and I want more of them.  So it's never fun when one disappoints at the box office, or critically, or, of course, me personally.

I'm never going to see Etrigan or Nightshade or Conner Kent or whomever on the big screen if they feel that they have to 'try again' with a new Superman and Batman every five years.  :/

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I'm never going to see Etrigan or Nightshade or Conner Kent or whomever on the big screen if they feel that they have to 'try again' with a new Superman and Batman every five years.  :/


That just made me realize WB will run out of villains (what challenge is there after defeating Darkseid) long before they will run out of heroes. All the Aquadude talk reminds me how little we've heard about Black Manta and that guy I really want to have a future (maybe even with the Suicide Squad). It would be great if the success of Wonder Woman and Aquaman ultimately leads to greenlighting more wonderfully off-beat characters.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Aquaman should always look regal and Mamoa does not. Even hook Aquaman looks regal.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Aquaman should always look regal and Mamoa does not. Even hook Aquaman looks regal.


While I agree with you I also think Mamoa can pull it off but with Snyder's version of Aquaman I keep expecting him to say something like "Bro".

----------


## soundsci

Is it expected that Darkseid will show up as the main villain, just not shown in the trailers beforehand?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> While I agree with you I also think Mamoa can pull it off but with Snyder's version of Aquaman I keep expecting him to say something like "Bro".


Expecting the trailer moments to be the only funny lines in the whole movie. Just kidding! Bet they didn't go for the amount of humor in the Avengers. Plus Aquadude grew up among crabfishers, no?

----------


## dietrich

Shame people have a problem with Jason's Aquaman he's the only thing holding my interest and maybe this is exactly the shot in the arm the Aquaman franchise needs.

----------


## nightrider

> That just made me realize WB will run out of villains (what challenge is there after defeating Darkseid) long before they will run out of heroes. All the Aquadude talk reminds me how little we've heard about Black Manta and that guy I really want to have a future (maybe even with the Suicide Squad). It would be great if the success of Wonder Woman and Aquaman ultimately leads to greenlighting more wonderfully off-beat characters.


WB will never run out of villains. Dc has the largest pool of villains available.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Spontaneous idea! What if instead of lifeless CGI crap Parademons we'd get human cultists worshipping Darkseid or an investigation on Intergang kinda like they did in 52/Final Crisis ? Maybe we get that in an upcoming solo movie.

----------


## Bukdiah

> While I agree with you I also think Mamoa can pull it off but with Snyder's version of Aquaman I keep expecting him to say something like "Bro".


He sounds like a Jeff Bridges impersonation to me lol

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Aquaman should always look regal and Mamoa does not. Even hook Aquaman looks regal.


Momoa definitely looks regal, the question is whether he'll adopt that kind of royal vibe in his dialogue. I think he will inevitably end up there. Right now this Aquaman may not be, or just recently became, King of Atlantis.

----------


## Lightning Rider

New images

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Well, at least these images aren't more angles of the Flash-Wondy-Bats trio staring at something. :P

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Shame people have a problem with Jason's Aquaman he's the only thing holding my interest and maybe this is exactly the shot in the arm the Aquaman franchise needs.


Honestly, I think the only people who will have a problem with him will be the hard core comic fans of Aquaman. I think the general public is going to eat him up, and he'll be a breakout favorite for regular audiences. I could be wrong of course, but it's just a feeling I have. 

I've been a DC reader since the 80's, and I love what I've seen of Aquaman so far in the JL trailers. I've never thought of the character as lame, but I do find him incredibly boring. I'm all for a new take like what we see so far from Mamoa because this guy doesn't look boring at all. Next month people! My hype is reaching extreme levels.

----------


## batnbreakfast

How I hate Batman/NightOwl mashup! Desert trenchcoat goggle Batman at least had the decency to look cool while not making sense.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> How I hate Batman/NightOwl mashup! Desert trenchcoat goggle Batman at least had the decency to look cool while not making sense.


They're not my favorite but Batman is a gadget fiend so they don't bother me.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Honestly, I think the only people who will have a problem with him will be the hard core comic fans of Aquaman. I think the general public is going to eat him up, and he'll be a breakout favorite for regular audiences. I could be wrong of course, but it's just a feeling I have.


Totally agree. The only people I've seen complaining about Aquaman are the hardcore fans who want him to look like he just stepped off their favorite piece of cover art. Pretty much ANYONE else who I've seen commenting on him is going on and on about how awesome he looks. Girls are calling him "hawt." Probably some guys are too, I'd imagine. People are calling him "awesome" and "badass" all over the Internet. 

I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but this is probably another case in which we comic fans may have to just accept that we're outnumbered on this one. This iteration of Aquaman is looking to be very popular unless something goes really wrong somewhere down the road. 

And yeah, I still can't believe we're just about a month away from the big day!  :Smile:  Hopefully the rumors are true and we've got a new trailer coming up this week to tide us over until then.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Shame people have a problem with Jason's Aquaman he's the only thing holding my interest and maybe this is exactly the shot in the arm the Aquaman franchise needs.


So far it's just a miniscule minority. Everybody else are loving him, especially some ladies who were fanning themselves back from Momoa's Khal Drogo days  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Well, at least these images aren't more angles of the Flash-Wondy-Bats trio staring at something. :P


That Flash image is indeed just another angle of him staring at something  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Girls are calling him "hawt." Probably some guys are too, I'd imagine.


Speaking as someone in-between, I may not like how Momoa looks for the part and I don't like the personality they're giving him...but Jason Momoa is still sexy as s**t. 




> I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but this is probably another case in which we comic fans may have to just accept that we're outnumbered on this one. This iteration of Aquaman is looking to be very popular unless something goes really wrong somewhere down the road. 
> .


And much like all the other popular things I hate, I don't care.  :Embarrassment:  (Again, it really wouldn't be as bad if there weren't so many people saying that this is "making Aquaman cool.")

----------


## Ascended

I dont get the Aqua-hate either. 

Orin has always had a swagger to him and a fierce temper. And he's usually a little rough around the edges until he's spent so much time on the throne those edges get worn away.

If Mamoa had short blonde hair and was clean shaven, and wearing an all-orange shirt, you wouldn't hear people whining like they are.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I dont get the Aqua-hate either. 
> 
> Orin has always had a swagger to him and a fierce temper. And he's usually a little rough around the edges until he's spent so much time on the throne those edges get worn away.
> 
> If Mamoa had short blonde hair and was clean shaven, and wearing an all-orange shirt, you wouldn't hear people whining like they are.


Frankly, Jason Mamoa would look weird as all heck with blonde hair.  That's not what the man looks like.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## BatmanJones

> Speaking as someone in-between, I may not like how Momoa looks for the part and I don't like the personality they're giving him...but Jason Momoa is still sexy as s**t.


"Sexy as shit?" I have some pretty wild tastes myself but I never went in for "scat." I know there are others that feel differently but I don't find shit to be sexy at all.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> "Sexy as shit?" I have some pretty wild tastes myself but I never went in for "scat." I know there are others that feel differently but I don't find shit to be sexy at all.


I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or if you're just unfamiliar with slang. I'd bet on the former

----------


## Frontier

> I think Miller is doing a decent job of being Barry since he's not being intentionally funny, he's being awkward and corny. Wally is more sarcastic and occasionally quippy. Miller's Barry doesn't strike me as darkly witty.
> 
> Gustin's Flash honestly doesn't seem to have any fleshed out sense of humor.


Gustin's Flash started out as a mild jokester, which I also think Barry is to some degree, just not like Wally. It got toned down in later seasons, but then being The Flash was less fun for him so he was understandably more serious. 

Miller, to me, totally comes off as trying to be intentionally humorous or comedic, at least in how the actor is portraying him if not in the actual context of the character's personality. 



> Momoa definitely looks regal, the question is whether he'll adopt that kind of royal vibe in his dialogue. I think he will inevitably end up there. Right now this Aquaman may not be, or just recently became, King of Atlantis.


He definitely looks more regal in still shots. 

I also don't think he's the King of Atlantis yet. We still don't really have a lot of context for his relationship with Atlantis and how this will tie back to the _Aquaman_ solo. 



> I dont get the Aqua-hate either. 
> 
> *Orin has always had a swagger to him and a fierce temper. And he's usually a little rough around the edges until he's spent so much time on the throne those edges get worn away.*
> 
> If Mamoa had short blonde hair and was clean shaven, and wearing an all-orange shirt, you wouldn't hear people whining like they are.


I think this depends a lot on the kind of Aquaman people have read and/or envisions as the "ideal" take on the character, since there have been a few different takes. 

Obviously Momoa is taking a lot from the PAD take, even if he's also veering into his own thing with it that one could also construe as being a riff on _Brave and the Bold_ Aquaman.

----------


## Elmo

I think Jason will make a fine Aquaman, however the more traditional silver age Arthur is my personal favorite.

----------


## godisawesome

And I'm a Post Crisis fanboy for life. I personally feel that this *is* Aquaman, and that the Solver Age costume isn't as impressive.

----------


## Frontier

> And I'm a Post Crisis fanboy for life. I personally feel that this *is* Aquaman, and that the Solver Age costume isn't as impressive.


Well, I think orange chain/scalemail is a little more striking then your typical shirtless Superhero look, but different tastes and all that  :Smile: .

Momoa's costume in this movie is also a lot more "classic" then what he was wearing in BvS.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Aquaman has a lame look so I can see why they changed it up for the films


Aquaman's classic look is a pretty fantastic design, tbh.

----------


## Johnny Thunders!

Momoa looks like Lobo.

----------


## mace11

> WB will never run out of villains. Dc has the largest pool of villains available.


I would say Marvel has  a larger pool of villains then DC  since Marvel had more books coming out over the years.

http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category :Big Grin: C_Villains

http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Marvel_Villains

----------


## Confuzzled

> Aquaman's classic look is a pretty fantastic design, tbh.


Really? It's not as awful as many people claim, but it is kinda generic. As a kid, I would always confuse him with Flash Gordon.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I also don't think he's the King of Atlantis yet. We still don't really have a lot of context for his relationship with Atlantis and how this will tie back to the _Aquaman_ solo.


We definitely know he's not King of Atlantis in JL.  James Wan said that the solo movie is also before his rise to the throne. He and Mera aren't married or even in love when the movie begins. Their relationship is going to grow within the movie. 

My guess is that the solo ends with him taking the throne.

----------


## Confuzzled

> We definitely know he's not King of Atlantis in JL.  James Wan said that the solo movie is also before his rise to the throne. He and Mera aren't married or even in love when the movie begins. Their relationship is going to grow within the movie. 
> 
> My guess is that the solo ends with him taking the throne.


Wait, we know he's not King in JL? What's he doing underwater in Atlantis then? And why are Mera and Vulko included but not Atlanna, Orm and Manta? Mera is even wearing her crown.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Wait, we know he's not King in JL? What's he doing underwater in Atlantis then? And why are Mera and Vulko included but not Atlanna, Orm and Manta? Mera is even wearing her crown.


We don't know why he's in Atlantis yet. It's possible that what we're seeing in the trailer is his first time visiting Atlantis. For all we know, he's just down there looking for the Motherbox in order to keep it away from Steppenwolf. 

Atlanna? Arthur probably hasn't met her yet. Plus, Nicole Kidman is expensive. 

Vulko? He's Atlantis's chief scientist. If anyone would have information on the Motherbox, it's him.

Orm and Manta? Easy enough to say Orm is attending to other matters at the moment and Manta has either not revealed himself yet or is just waiting in the shadows for the right time to strike.

Mera? Until we know more about her and Atlantean culture, we can't be certain what the crown signifies. It could be purely decorative for her. Maybe it's a symbol of some other status she might have. Who knows? 

Anyway, I could be wrong, but I could've sworn I read an interview somewhere that stated that Arthur wasn't King of Atlantis in Justice League.

----------


## Assam

> As a kid, I would always confuse him with Flash Gordon.


Now I want to see Brian Blessed play Vulko.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Frontier

> Now I want to see Brian Blessed play Vulko.


Well, he'd certainly look more comic-accurate  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Lightning Rider

High resolution upload of the previous image.



Still wondering what that stuff on the screen is.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Really? It's not as awful as many people claim, but it is kinda generic. As a kid, I would always confuse him with Flash Gordon.


It's all about those secondary colors, man! He's iconic, stands out almost immediately.

The scales on the suit are fun, too. 

The JL movie suit just looks like generic early 00s superhero suit. Momoa could rock the orange/green. The JL flick needs more color in its visual palate.

----------


## batnbreakfast

While I love Gal's and Jeremy's costumes... Ben's rubber suit looks pretty bad in that pic. The magazine cover is awesome (Ray's CGI shenanigans aside)!

----------


## Carabas

> The JL movie suit just looks like generic early 00s superhero suit. Momoa could rock the orange/green. The JL flick needs more color in its visual palate.


But... the costume IS orange and green. And it even has the iconic belt buckle.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Still wondering what that stuff on the screen is.


https://www.reddit.com/r/DCEUleaks/c...ipyat_ukraine/

 :Wink:

----------


## Outside_85

> I would say Marvel has  a larger pool of villains then DC  since Marvel had more books coming out over the years.
> 
> http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/CategoryC_Villains
> 
> http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Marvel_Villains


I would say DC has more worthwhile villains while Marvel has a lot of junk villains who aren't very interesting on their own.

----------


## nightbird

> Still wondering what that stuff on the screen is.


Probably Chernobyl (Pripyat). A lot of fans from Russia and Ukraine already speculated that final battle location looks too familiar. Building that Aquaman destroyed typical for a lot of Post-Sovet Union countries and Pripyat is a ghost town.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Probably Chernobyl (Pripyat). A lot of fans from Russia and Ukraine already speculated that final battle location looks too familiar. Building that Aquaman destroyed typical for a lot of Post-Sovet Unuion countries and Pripyat is a ghost town.


Quite convenient grounds for staging a battle scene with lots of property destruction but little human loss. :P

----------


## Flash Gordon

> But... the costume IS orange and green. And it even has the iconic belt buckle.


Is it orange? Looks like gold/green to me? 

I don't care for the look of it. Simplicity is key with these kinds of characters, I think. Gal Gadot's WW suit in the WW flick was pitch perfect.

----------


## Punisher007

> We don't know why he's in Atlantis yet. It's possible that what we're seeing in the trailer is his first time visiting Atlantis. For all we know, he's just down there looking for the Motherbox in order to keep it away from Steppenwolf. 
> 
> Atlanna? Arthur probably hasn't met her yet. Plus, Nicole Kidman is expensive. 
> 
> Vulko? He's Atlantis's chief scientist. If anyone would have information on the Motherbox, it's him.
> 
> Orm and Manta? Easy enough to say Orm is attending to other matters at the moment and Manta has either not revealed himself yet or is just waiting in the shadows for the right time to strike.
> 
> *Mera? Until we know more about her and Atlantean culture, we can't be certain what the crown signifies. It could be purely decorative for her. Maybe it's a symbol of some other status she might have. Who knows? 
> ...


She's been referred to as "Lady Mera" in some of the marketing.  So perhaps she still has status in Atlantis despite not being queen at the moment.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Probably Chernobyl (Pripyat). A lot of fans from Russia and Ukraine already speculated that final battle location looks too familiar. Building that Aquaman destroyed typical for a lot of Post-Sovet Union countries and Pripyat is a ghost town.


The ferris wheel certainly does look like Chernobyl, you're right.

----------


## Outside_85

> Quite convenient grounds for staging a battle scene with lots of property destruction but little human loss. :P


Well, one could argue there that the alternatives would have to be either:
MoS: Huge amount of destruction and thousand dead, with millions of complaining fans to boot.
Avengers: Not much destruction, a limited amount of casualties... and a very un-epic feel to whats supposed to be an 'end of the world' event.
or
A fight in a field, leaving a cow as the only casualty.




> Probably Chernobyl (Pripyat). A lot of fans from Russia and Ukraine already speculated that final battle location looks too familiar. Building that Aquaman destroyed typical for a lot of Post-Sovet Union countries and Pripyat is a ghost town.


That kinda makes a certain amount of sense if Steppenwolf's secret base was located beneath Chernobyl. The radiation likely doesn't bother him or his parademons and both it, and the enormous dome they are building there to cover the reactor, would shield him from being detected. On top of that we get the play with the fun theme of a disaster we all know about was caused by something else and there being this huge cover-up.

----------


## nightbird

> That kinda makes a certain amount of sense if Steppenwolf's secret base was located beneath Chernobyl. The radiation likely doesn't bother him or his parademons and both it, and the enormous dome they are building there to cover the reactor, would shield him from being detected. On top of that we get the play with the fun theme of a disaster we all know about was caused by something else and there being this huge cover-up.


I don't think they're going to change Chernobyl's history. Town looks like it was abandoned a long time ago, just like current Chernobyl/Pripyat.

----------


## Agent Z

> Quite convenient grounds for staging a battle scene with lots of property destruction but little human loss. :P


We're seriously complaining that the movies are just trying to avoid people dying in these fights now?

----------


## Outside_85

> I don't think they're going to change Chernobyl's history. Town looks like it was abandoned a long time ago, just like current Chernobyl/Pripyat.


And I was aiming to suggest that is still looks that way on the surface. But we know that Steppenwolf has an underground hideout somewhere, so why not beneath an leaking nuclear reactor?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...07460475420672

New trailer confirmed for this Sunday.

I believe that's the last day of NYCC.

----------


## Elmo

New trailer coming Sunday

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Vanguard-01

My body is ready!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Lightning Rider

This is funny.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/913433127753621504

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Wow, those posters look awesome...except Cyborg..which looks...bad?

----------


## Elmo

Yeah Cyborg still doesn't look good to me. He's more robotic than human and it looks so obviously fake; it's disconcerting

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah Cyborg still doesn't look good to me. He's more robotic than human and it looks so obviously fake; it's disconcerting


It may just be that his CGI just doesn't look good in still images? He definitely looks better in the trailers?

----------


## manofsteel1979

> We're seriously complaining that the movies are just trying to avoid people dying in these fights now?


I remember some of the same people that were caterwauling the loudest over the implied death and destruction in MOS were the ones rolling their eyes the most when BvS went out of its way to have the Doomsday battle happen at the Gotham Docks and Strikers Island, I.e. mostly abandoned areas. If the film makers attempt to show the toll of Superpowerd beings throwing down has on the world around them, you'll have complainers. When the film makers go out of their way to avoid  the implication of innocent people dying, there's complaining and often times both sets of complainers are one and the same. I think Snyder and Weadon are damed if they do and damned if they don't with a certain segment of fandom.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah Cyborg still doesn't look good to me. He's more robotic than human...


Isn't he supposed to?




> ...and it looks so obviously fake;


Yeah, that is a problem. As is the Flash's costume. Looks totally fake.

----------


## Elmo

> Isn't he supposed to?


There should be some sort of symbiosis. 



He simply looks better here. 

or even here:



in the film he looks completely like an android which is not what a cyborg is or who Cyborg is. Not saying the interpretation may be any different but it's hard to believe there's symbiosis between his human self and bionic self when you literally only see a portion of his human face and that's it.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I remember some of the same people that were caterwauling the loudest over the implied death and destruction in MOS were the ones rolling their eyes the most when BvS went out of its way to have the Doomsday battle happen at the Gotham Docks and Strikers Island, I.e. mostly abandoned areas. If the film makers attempt to show the toll of Superpowerd beings throwing down has on the world around them, you'll have complainers. When the film makers go out of their way to avoid  the implication of innocent people dying, there's complaining and often times both sets of complainers are one and the same. I think Snyder and Weadon are damed if they do and damned if they don't with a certain segment of fandom.


As I'd said before:  what do people want from their DCEU movies?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> As I'd said before:  what do people want from their DCEU movies?


A city levelled in an all ages (Avengers) way? Take your kids and feel good about it!

----------


## Robotman

Cyborg looks terrible in all these promotional images. He looked a lot better in the last trailer. So I guess it’s a design that looks ok while in motion.

----------


## Frontier

I think Cyborg is probably the Leaguer who needs a design revamp the most. 

Flash at least has the excuse that he's running around in a prototype costume.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Wouldn't mind Cyborg adopting the look from this BvS concept art in the future.

----------


## Elmo

> As I'd said before:  what do people want from their DCEU movies?


Coming from someone who has thoroughly enjoyed the DCEU so far, I just want to see the universe expanded. I assumed that Suicide Squad would do that but it really didn't do much aside from introducing characters from different corners of the DC universe (although a majority were Batman villains) . Instead of doing characters we know and have seen before in some form of media they should be pushing to adapt characters who have never been done before. The idea that there is no real storyline connecting all the movies means they can do Legion of Super-Heroes or New Gods movies; individual franchises that stand on their own and aren't building up to some huge movie. I don't care about Batman, I don't care about Harley Quinn or Joker. 

I'm down for more Wonder Woman because there has only been one Wonder Woman film and I'm down for more Superman because to me, Superman has only been done right twice (Superman II and Man of Steel) . However we need a LEGIT Flash film instead of freaking Flashpoint. We need a legit Green Lantern film that expands the Green Lantern mythos instead of focusing on one single character. We need a comic accurate Green Arrow and Black Canary film. We need movies or shows about street vigilantes that AREN'T connected to Batman in any way. 

My problem is that it feels like the execs or whoever are really coming up with these films simply aren't comic fans and are instead looking at statistics online based on audiences or trailer views/likes and such. They need to EXPAND. The DC Universe is so vast and full of incredible characters and incredible mythology; it feels like it's in a bubble right now. Maybe it's just me.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> There should be some sort of symbiosis. 
> 
> 
> 
> He simply looks better here. 
> 
> or even here:
> 
> 
> ...


I might be remembering it wrong, but he still had a good chunk of his torso and a bit more in BvS, right? Perhaps this is his "first suit", designed to protect his fleshy parts (we see in the trailers that he has a face shield that pops up). 100% conjecture here, but maybe early in his struggle of "am I man or machine?" he chooses to just cover himself up because "I'm not a man anymore", and once he finds peace with it and a place among friends he'll alter his look to show more flesh & embrace his human side. 

Like I said, it's just me spitballing, but it could possibly be cool character development for him. I like the design myself, I just don't care for the character. But that's a personal preference, not a critique of anything in the movie.

----------


## Elmo

> I might be remembering it wrong, but he still had a good chunk of his torso and a bit more in BvS, right? Perhaps this is his "first suit", designed to protect his fleshy parts (we see in the trailers that he has a face shield that pops up). 100% conjecture here, but maybe early in his struggle of "am I man or machine?" he chooses to just cover himself up because "I'm not a man anymore", and once he finds peace with it and a place among friends he'll alter his look to show more flesh & embrace his human side. 
> 
> Like I said, it's just me spitballing, but it could possibly be cool character development for him. I like the design myself, I just don't care for the character. But that's a personal preference, not a critique of anything in the movie.




Head, upper torso, and biceps. That's it.

I could see him having some sort of synthetic skin in later films or them revamping the design so at least his arms are showing and so the suit doesn't have to be _completely_ CG.

----------


## Robotman

> Wouldn't mind Cyborg adopting the look from this BvS concept art in the future.


This early design is light years better than the one they went with.

----------


## Elmo

I do like Cyborg in white/silver but yeah; that design is great. He really looks _heroic_ there. This guy in the film? Not so much.

Would be cool if the film ended with a tease to Cyborg's solo and a new design.

----------


## Robotman

i'm not a Geoff Johns hater. in fact im a fan of most of his work. but i did notice they changed Cyborg's cinematic look to resemble the New 52 version that he created as soon as Johns took over as President of DC Entertainment. they were displaying that concept art with the super cool design and then when Johns took over a short while later they unveiled the clunky CGI thing that they eventually went with. not gonna throw all the blame on Johns but it does seem like a big coincidence that they changed the look to match Johns' version once he was promoted. i really don't trust his vision for Cyborg. it's that sad Frankenstein character that most Vic Stone fans (myself included) hate.

that concept art is badass. i would love to see something similar to that adopted in the movies and comics.

----------


## BatmanJones

> As I'd said before:  what do people want from their DCEU movies?


Just for them to be good. It's that simple.

----------


## Agent Z

> Just for them to be good. It's that simple.


What is good is subjective. Not everyone hated these movies. Not to mention, the complaints people typically have of these films tend to make me think being good is the goal but rather making carbon copies of the comics or remakes of old films.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Just for them to be good. It's that simple.


That's the glib answer, but the problem is that you do these films one way, people scream bloody murder...and then you do the complete opposite, and the same people scream bloody murder again.  "Good" never seems to be good enough for many people.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> That's the glib answer, but the problem is that you do these films one way, people scream bloody murder...and then you do the complete opposite, and the same people scream bloody murder again.  "Good" never seems to be good enough for many people.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


You've been around fanboys long enough to know that some will _never_ be satisfied, but it is generally not too difficult to ignore the noise and see what stuff resonates and what stuff doesn't. For better or worse, the Marvel movies are very well liked and are popular, critically and commercially. The DC films have been a mixed bag because of various problems and studio mismanagement that Marvel managed to avoid because you had Kevin Feige there steering the ship.

However, with Wonder Woman, it's pretty clear that it was more what audiences were looking for from their superhero movies--a combination of heart, humor and heroics that the CW shows have used as their guiding principles. That's what DC is going to be going after from this point forward...

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I remember some of the same people that were caterwauling the loudest over the implied death and destruction in MOS were the ones rolling their eyes the most when BvS went out of its way to have the Doomsday battle happen at the Gotham Docks and Strikers Island, I.e. mostly abandoned areas. If the film makers attempt to show the toll of Superpowerd beings throwing down has on the world around them, you'll have complainers. When the film makers go out of their way to avoid  the implication of innocent people dying, there's complaining and often times both sets of complainers are one and the same. I think Snyder and Weadon are damed if they do and damned if they don't with a certain segment of fandom.


For me I think it's not that simple. I don't mind a ton of destruction when superhero fights go down. Hell, I liked the fight scenes in MoS. I think the destruction can be dramatic too, which I like. MoS may have gone a bit overboard showing so many buildings collapsing in all these perfectly framed shots but I don't that's just the main problem. For me, I just don't feel a sense of heroism when I watch those fight scenes.

If you watch the Battle of New York in the first Avengers movie, it has the same thing as the MoS fight scenes: superpowered beings (though none are as powerful as DCEU's Supes, except Thor or Hulk) fighting in a populated city against the enemy while the city gets destroyed. The key difference is what is done before, during and after this fight scene. 

The Avengers movie (and other MCU movies before it) establish that each member of the team just want to do the right thing before the big battle. This is very clear in the case of Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and even Black Widow. Hawkeye is the only one that perhaps doesn't have such development but it doesn't really matter. Also, in the midst of all of the destruction, Cap saves two cops a bunch of other people in a restaurant or café (which almost kills him), Black Widow and Hawkeye help some children out of a school bus, and even Hulk stops a Leviathan from entering an office with civilians in it. In addition, many of them also end up in danger. Caps manages to survive an explosion, gets shot and is visibly hurt, Hawkeye runs out of arrows and basically has to flee, Hulk gets swarmed by Chitauri and Iron Man gets downed at a point and he also has to almost sacrifice his life to get rid of the nuke headed towards NYC (and him having to do it is also well explained because he finds out about it first and is already on it). Finally after the battle, even though the Avengers are controversial, there are people who adore them, idolise them, and have earned their gratitude and respect for saving their lives (and rightfully so, and the audience believes it because we see it), while also mourning the dead.

See, I don't get that sense of heroism from MoS or BvS. MoS tried to do it, but Snyder's style is just overtly violent with no heart behind it for me. There's only one scene I can remember when Superman saves a soldier falling from a helicopter, but the Battle of Metropolis is basically just Supes and Zod punching each other and throwing shit at each other and driving each other through more shit until Supes breaks Zod's neck. While the fight scenes looked really cool, I feel like they could have been better choreographed to give them a higher sense of danger and drama. The final fight could have been a mix between what we got, and having Zod deliberately endanger humans by flying of with them and tossing them away or trying to kill them in any other way, making it harder for Supes to save them and defeat Zod. This would show how low Zod had descended and how evil he had become, and how Supes will do all he can to help and save humanity. It could also be a way of Zod pushing Supes' limits.

So far, only Wonder Woman managed to depict this sense of heroism, especially with the No Man's Land. Wondy does what is right, even though it's not what she is supposed to do, saves innocent lives, defeats the bad guys and inspires the soldiers to fight with her and look up to her.

----------


## Agent Z

> For me I think it's not that simple. I don't mind a ton of destruction when superhero fights go down. Hell, I liked the fight scenes in MoS. I think the destruction can be dramatic too, which I like. MoS may have gone a bit overboard showing so many buildings collapsing in all these perfectly framed shots but I don't that's just the main problem. For me, I just don't feel a sense of heroism when I watch those fight scenes.
> 
> If you watch the Battle of New York in the first Avengers movie, it has the same thing as the MoS fight scenes: superpowered beings (though none are as powerful as DCEU's Supes, except Thor or Hulk) fighting in a populated city against the enemy while the city gets destroyed. The key difference is what is done before, during and after this fight scene. 
> 
> The Avengers movie (and other MCU movies before it) establish that each member of the team just want to do the right thing before the big battle. This is very clear in the case of Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and even Black Widow. Hawkeye is the only one that perhaps doesn't have such development but it doesn't really matter. Also, in the midst of all of the destruction, Cap saves two cops a bunch of other people in a restaurant or café (which almost kills him), Black Widow and Hawkeye help some children out of a school bus, and even Hulk stops a Leviathan from entering an office with civilians in it. In addition, many of them also end up in danger. Caps manages to survive an explosion, gets shot and is visibly hurt, Hawkeye runs out of arrows and basically has to flee, Hulk gets swarmed by Chitauri and Iron Man gets downed at a point and he also has to almost sacrifice his life to get rid of the nuke headed towards NYC (and him having to do it is also well explained because he finds out about it first and is already on it). Finally after the battle, even though the Avengers are controversial, there are people who adore them, idolise them, and have earned their gratitude and respect for saving their lives (and rightfully so, and the audience believes it because we see it), while also mourning the dead.
> 
> See, I don't get that sense of heroism from MoS or BvS. MoS tried to do it, but Snyder's style is just overtly violent with no heart behind it for me. There's only one scene I can remember when Superman saves a soldier falling from a helicopter, but the Battle of Metropolis is basically just Supes and Zod punching each other and throwing shit at each other and driving each other through more shit until Supes breaks Zod's neck. While the fight scenes looked really cool, I feel like they could have been better choreographed to give them a higher sense of danger and drama. The final fight could have been a mix between what we got, and having Zod deliberately endanger humans by flying of with them and tossing them away or trying to kill them in any other way, making it harder for Supes to save them and defeat Zod. This would show how low Zod had descended and how evil he had become, and how Supes will do all he can to help and save humanity. It could also be a way of Zod pushing Supes' limits.
> 
> So far, only Wonder Woman managed to depict this sense of heroism, especially with the No Man's Land. Wondy does what is right, even though it's not what she is supposed to do, saves innocent lives, defeats the bad guys and inspires the soldiers to fight with her and look up to her.


The first thing we see Clark do as an adult is save people form an oil rig. 

The Avengers were a team of six to eight people. Superman was one guy who only learned he could fly a day or so before Zod's invasion. Furthermore, if you look at the two fights, you can see the Avengers doing more direct damage to their city by crashing Chitauri ships into them while Superman's contribution to the damage was being slammed into things by Zod or having things thrown at him. The enemy soldiers in the Avengers movies are about as threatening as the Putties from Power Rangers. They're just their for the heroes to smash up and look good doing it. Steve takes a shot to the stomach from a Chitauri and is seen just walking around like nothing happened. Natasha and Clint were able to kill these guys with arrows and low caliber handguns. When you actually look at the way these enemies are disposed of, you start to wonder why the hell the Avengers are needed when regular armed forces will do just fine. By contrast, the DCEU movies actually go through the effort of showing why the heroes are needed for a particular situation. And even then they still get help from normal humans like in Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. 

Note that even when they lured the monster to an abandoned area, we still had people complaining. Even when these people get what they want, they're not satisfied.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> The first thing we see Clark do as an adult is save people form an oil rig. 
> 
> The Avengers were a team of six to eight people. Superman was one guy who only learned he could fly a day or so before Zod's invasion. Furthermore, if you look at the two fights, you can see the Avengers doing more direct damage to their city by crashing Chitauri ships into them while Superman's contribution to the damage was being slammed into things by Zod or having things thrown at him. The enemy soldiers in the Avengers movies are about as threatening as the Putties from Power Rangers. They're just their for the heroes to smash up and look good doing it. Steve takes a shot to the stomach from a Chitauri and is seen just walking around like nothing happened. Natasha and Clint were able to kill these guys with arrows and low caliber handguns. When you actually look at the way these enemies are disposed of, you start to wonder why the hell the Avengers are needed when regular armed forces will do just fine. By contrast, the DCEU movies actually go through the effort of showing why the heroes are needed for a particular situation. And even then they still get help from normal humans like in Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. 
> 
> Note that even when they lured the monster to an abandoned area, we still had people complaining. Even when these people get what they want, they're not satisfied.


You're missing my point.

Clark saving the workers from the oil rig _is_ extremely typical and expected of a titular hero. It's been done countless times and really, if we're gonna go by what Clark was taught as a kid, he shouldn't have even saved those guys. This is the same guy that trashed a guy's truck all because he was rude to him and a waitress, and actually stopped dead in his tracks while his father was in the midst of a tornado rescuing the family dog (and let him do it in the first place). So really, Clark is not the best example of moral character. Also, I was talking about saving people in fight scenes so I'm afraid that's goal post shifting.

Secondly, Superman learning to fly a day or two before Zod's arrival is irrelevant because he doesn't seem to have any trouble using _any_ of his powers (except heat vision). He even brags about it in front of Zod. Furthermore, Black Widow and Hawkeye had zero experience fighting superpowered beings (the line about Budapest explains this) yet they also knew that they had to save people in the midst of the destruction. I never said the Avengers weren't destructive because that is beside the point (and I also mentioned that they were controversial at the end of the movie). I said they acted far more heroic while fighting than Clark did. Plus, let's not act like Superman did not punch Zod and his two henchmen into several buildings and other structures that caused explosions. He did it more than once. Am I saying Superman or Kryptonians shouldn't display that sort of power? No, of course not. I'm saying that if Zack Synder didn't have such a love for violence and destruction porn, those fight scenes would have been directed and choreographed differently. In addition, the power or the durability of the Chitauri is also irrelevant because they were clearly a threat to the lives of the civilians. Who cares of a bullet or an arrow can kill them? They were a threat, and I didn't see the military or police doing such a good job at handling them because they lack the abilities, training and tech that the Avengers had. Show me the military taking out Leviathans the way Thor, Hulk and Iron Man did. Plus, Cap had to tell the police what to do.

Claiming the DCEU solely goes out of it's way to show why heroes are needed as compared to the MCU because the DCEU heroes and villains are all basically gods doesn't make any sense because again, the military or any police force has never done a good job at handling such situations. That's literally why American superheroes were invented.

----------


## Soubhagya

> For me I think it's not that simple. I don't mind a ton of destruction when superhero fights go down. Hell, I liked the fight scenes in MoS. I think the destruction can be dramatic too, which I like. MoS may have gone a bit overboard showing so many buildings collapsing in all these perfectly framed shots but I don't that's just the main problem. For me, I just don't feel a sense of heroism when I watch those fight scenes.
> 
> If you watch the Battle of New York in the first Avengers movie, it has the same thing as the MoS fight scenes: superpowered beings (though none are as powerful as DCEU's Supes, except Thor or Hulk) fighting in a populated city against the enemy while the city gets destroyed. The key difference is what is done before, during and after this fight scene. 
> 
> The Avengers movie (and other MCU movies before it) establish that each member of the team just want to do the right thing before the big battle. This is very clear in the case of Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and even Black Widow. Hawkeye is the only one that perhaps doesn't have such development but it doesn't really matter. Also, in the midst of all of the destruction, Cap saves two cops a bunch of other people in a restaurant or café (which almost kills him), Black Widow and Hawkeye help some children out of a school bus, and even Hulk stops a Leviathan from entering an office with civilians in it. In addition, many of them also end up in danger. Caps manages to survive an explosion, gets shot and is visibly hurt, Hawkeye runs out of arrows and basically has to flee, Hulk gets swarmed by Chitauri and Iron Man gets downed at a point and he also has to almost sacrifice his life to get rid of the nuke headed towards NYC (and him having to do it is also well explained because he finds out about it first and is already on it). Finally after the battle, even though the Avengers are controversial, there are people who adore them, idolise them, and have earned their gratitude and respect for saving their lives (and rightfully so, and the audience believes it because we see it), while also mourning the dead.
> 
> See, I don't get that sense of heroism from MoS or BvS. MoS tried to do it, but Snyder's style is just overtly violent with no heart behind it for me. There's only one scene I can remember when Superman saves a soldier falling from a helicopter, but the Battle of Metropolis is basically just Supes and Zod punching each other and throwing shit at each other and driving each other through more shit until Supes breaks Zod's neck. While the fight scenes looked really cool, I feel like they could have been better choreographed to give them a higher sense of danger and drama. The final fight could have been a mix between what we got, and having Zod deliberately endanger humans by flying of with them and tossing them away or trying to kill them in any other way, making it harder for Supes to save them and defeat Zod. This would show how low Zod had descended and how evil he had become, and how Supes will do all he can to help and save humanity. It could also be a way of Zod pushing Supes' limits.
> 
> So far, only Wonder Woman managed to depict this sense of heroism, especially with the No Man's Land. Wondy does what is right, even though it's not what she is supposed to do, saves innocent lives, defeats the bad guys and inspires the soldiers to fight with her and look up to her.


I agree with you. There was no heart and heroism in Zod fight.



Not like this from Superman: Birthright. Look at his torn costume. He is dying trying to save a baby during the Metropolis fight. 




If i get into the shoes of Superman, the character he was heroic. He did everything to save the world. It was a messy fight due to his inexperience.

But if i get into the shoes of those who made the movie there was no heroism or heart in the scene. I agree with the helicopter scene. That was one of the few times when i could see that heart and heroism. I loved it. He caught the soldier and asked him if he is alright. It was backed with a really beautiful score. The scene when they put down their guns and the general said he is not our enemy. These are flashes of brilliance.

The thing that makes this an even more serious mistake is that they could have learnt from the examples. The film took a lot of inspiration from Superman:Birthright. That book ended with one of the best action sequences i have read in a comic book. Superman was getting pulverized. He was dying due to his efforts to the save the people of Metropolis.

Superman 2's special effects are dated. But it shows the same conflict. He has to fight the villains. But they tried to exploit his love for the people of Metropolis. It is one of the best action sequences even if the effects don't hold up. If they could have used some imagination we could have a breathtaking action sequence. Special effects are better in 2013. Show Superman trying his best to save the people while fighting an unstoppable enemy. His disadvantage would be more apparent. It would be memorable for years.

They could have spared a few more minutes after the fight. Few scenes showing him trying to rescue the people from the debris. Trying to help the injured and the dead. Show people's relief. Show their responses. In fact, if i might have my way i would add scenes helping him rebuild Metropolis. Just a few minutes would not have hurt. If the film makers don't care to show Superman in a heroic light why would the audience care? If they don't show him care enough to help people after the destruction why would the people care?

But Superman definitely cares for the people. He tried to save people to the best of his ability. He was outmatched and outgunned. He saved the world. Not bad for the first day in his job.

----------


## manofsteel1979

Sorry for the double post.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> For me I think it's not that simple. I don't mind a ton of destruction when superhero fights go down. Hell, I liked the fight scenes in MoS. I think the destruction can be dramatic too, which I like. MoS may have gone a bit overboard showing so many buildings collapsing in all these perfectly framed shots but I don't that's just the main problem. For me, I just don't feel a sense of heroism when I watch those fight scenes.
> 
> If you watch the Battle of New York in the first Avengers movie, it has the same thing as the MoS fight scenes: superpowered beings (though none are as powerful as DCEU's Supes, except Thor or Hulk) fighting in a populated city against the enemy while the city gets destroyed. The key difference is what is done before, during and after this fight scene. 
> 
> The Avengers movie (and other MCU movies before it) establish that each member of the team just want to do the right thing before the big battle. This is very clear in the case of Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and even Black Widow. Hawkeye is the only one that perhaps doesn't have such development but it doesn't really matter. Also, in the midst of all of the destruction, Cap saves two cops a bunch of other people in a restaurant or café (which almost kills him), Black Widow and Hawkeye help some children out of a school bus, and even Hulk stops a Leviathan from entering an office with civilians in it. In addition, many of them also end up in danger. Caps manages to survive an explosion, gets shot and is visibly hurt, Hawkeye runs out of arrows and basically has to flee, Hulk gets swarmed by Chitauri and Iron Man gets downed at a point and he also has to almost sacrifice his life to get rid of the nuke headed towards NYC (and him having to do it is also well explained because he finds out about it first and is already on it). Finally after the battle, even though the Avengers are controversial, there are people who adore them, idolise them, and have earned their gratitude and respect for saving their lives (and rightfully so, and the audience believes it because we see it), while also mourning the dead.
> 
> See, I don't get that sense of heroism from MoS or BvS. MoS tried to do it, but Snyder's style is just overtly violent with no heart behind it for me. There's only one scene I can remember when Superman saves a soldier falling from a helicopter, but the Battle of Metropolis is basically just Supes and Zod punching each other and throwing shit at each other and driving each other through more shit until Supes breaks Zod's neck. While the fight scenes looked really cool, I feel like they could have been better choreographed to give them a higher sense of danger and drama. The final fight could have been a mix between what we got, and having Zod deliberately endanger humans by flying of with them and tossing them away or trying to kill them in any other way, making it harder for Supes to save them and defeat Zod. This would show how low Zod had descended and how evil he had become, and how Supes will do all he can to help and save humanity. It could also be a way of Zod pushing Supes' limits.
> 
> So far, only Wonder Woman managed to depict this sense of heroism, especially with the No Man's Land. Wondy does what is right, even though it's not what she is supposed to do, saves innocent lives, defeats the bad guys and inspires the soldiers to fight with her and look up to her.


I don't have the time at the moment to address all of your points, but you make very valid ones and raise some I've even pointed out. I have said many times in the past that MOS needed a denouement showing Superman help dig out Metropolis and help people rebuild between the fight/death of Zod and the drone scene/wrap up. That is the films biggest flaw. I'm not in favor of always holding the audiences hand, but we needed that scene to explicitly show that, yes, Superman does care about lives and the toll his battle with Zod took on Metropolis. It was shown at various points though the movie that Supes was still the same Noble and empathetic guy we've always known, but just a little more ,a short montage scene would have gone a long way.

To be clear I wasn't referring to you or others that do bring valid and reasoned criticism to the table. I was referring to the reactionary and vocal minority of critics of MOS/ the DCEU in general that hated the movies from the moment it was clear Zack Snyder was taking an unconventional approach to a Superman origin story and wasn't doing a rehash of the 1978 film. The " man of murder" crowd who will never be satisfied unless Warner Bros abandons the DCEU entirely ,appologize to them personally for raping their childhoods,and pretends the movies made so far never existed  and pretty much either follow MARVEL'S formula of jokes and wisecracks or essentially remake the Donner Superman films.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Warner Bros. Pictures’ “Justice League” Teams Up with AT&T to Take over Times Square:






> Warner Bros. Pictures and DC Entertainment will team up with AT&T for an unprecedented takeover of its Times Square store from October 5 through 8, to celebrate the upcoming release of “Justice League.”
> 
> As part of this sponsorship, the AT&T store located at 3 Times Square will host an exclusive look at some of the most exciting elements from the action adventure film, well in advance of its November 17 debut in theaters.
> 
> Fans can see and take pictures with the iconic Batmobile and Bruce Wayne’s tricked-out Mercedes-Benz AMG Vision Gran Turismo along Broadway, from 42nd to 44th Streets.
> 
> Inside the AT&T store, see incredibly lifelike statues of DC’s iconic Justice League members Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg and The Flash.
> 
> Check out video footage, the coolest props and costumes from the movie, try out VR activities, Join the League yourself, and take home an exclusive poster.
> ...


http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...1004005504/en/

----------


## Blind Wedjat



----------


## Blind Wedjat



----------


## Lightning Rider

I live in NY, definitely going to check it out.

----------


## Johnny

Finally a cool Cyborg promo pic.

----------


## Agent Z

> You're missing my point.
> 
> Clark saving the workers from the oil rig _is_ extremely typical and expected of a titular hero.  It's been done countless times


As is what the Avengers do in New York. In that regard, they’re no different.




> and really, if we're gonna go by what Clark was taught as a kid, he shouldn't have even saved those guys.


Clark was taught to think before you leap. Advice most of the MCU roster could stand to learn.




> This is the same guy that trashed a guy's truck all because he was rude to him and a waitress, and actually stopped dead in his tracks while his father was in the midst of a tornado rescuing the family dog (and let him do it in the first place).


Trashing other people’s property is hardly a new thing for Superman. The tornado scene was more complicated than most people realize and it isn’t like we knew he had super speed at that time. For all we know, he couldn’t have saved his father even if he wasn’t stopped.




> So really, Clark is not the best example of moral character.


Please. Compared to a war mongering prince, an assassin, a man who created the bastard love child of Skynet and Bender, Steve Rogers, the world’s biggest liar and hypocrite and Scarlet Witch, he’s an outright saint. 




> Also, I was talking about saving people in fight scenes so I'm afraid that's goal post shifting.


And I’ve already explained how the two contexts differ.




> Secondly, Superman learning to fly a day or two before Zod's arrival is irrelevant because he doesn't seem to have any trouble using _any_ of his powers (except heat vision).


He knew how to use his powers to save people from disasters not how to use them in combat. It’s like throwing a parademic into a fight with a US marine and expecting the paramedic to win because he’s used to lifting heavy people. This was the first time Clark had ever fought period. He’d avoided physical confrontation like a monk before he ever met Zod. Next time you’re in a fight see how easy it is to focus on anything other than the guy pounding your face into the pavement.



> Furthermore, Black Widow and Hawkeye had zero experience fighting superpowered beings (the line about Budapest explains this) yet they also knew that they had to save people in the midst of the destruction.


Again, they were only able to do this because their stronger teammates could take care of the fighting. 






> I said they acted far more heroic while fighting than Clark did.


They weren’t more heroic. They were just luckier they were a team of six and that there enemies were pathetic and incompetent.



> Plus, let's not act like Superman did not punch Zod and his two henchmen into several buildings and other structures that caused explosions.


He does it a grand total of once and even then Zod still causes more destruction. Again, first time fighting. That doesn’t make him less heroic.




> Am I saying Superman or Kryptonians shouldn't display that sort of power? No, of course not. I'm saying that if Zack Synder didn't have such a love for violence and destruction porn, those fight scenes would have been directed and choreographed differently.


Man of Steel is not the first time a city or town was levelled in a Superman fight. And other versions don’t have the luxury of being untested rookies. See the finale of Justice League Unlimited. 
http://<a href="https://www.youtube....l_5UwS57X8</a>




> In addition, the power or the durability of the Chitauri is also irrelevant because they were clearly a threat to the lives of the civilians.


And Zod was a threat to both civilians and Clark. The power level of the Chitauri is very relevant because I can assure you if it was the Kryptonians the Avengers were fighting, the Battle of New York would have gone very differently.




> Who cares of a bullet or an arrow can kill them? They were a threat, and I didn't see the military or police doing such a good job at handling them because they lack the abilities, training and tech that the Avengers had. Show me the military taking out Leviathans the way Thor, Hulk and Iron Man did. Plus, Cap had to tell the police what to do.


The entire Chitauri fleet was wiped out by a _single_ tactical nuke! They are clearly vulnerable to conventional weaponry unlike the Kryptonians. If six mere people, two of whom are not soldiers by their own admission, can hurt them so easily, then the National Guard could easily handle the Chitauri. There was nothing about this race that necessitated six people who were so caught up in their own petty issues that it took the death of a guy that most of the team didn’t even know at all to motivate them to get their heads out of their asses and fight. Even the instructions Steve gives to that cop were standard operating procedure and something a cop should _know_ to do.



> Claiming the DCEU solely goes out of it's way to show why heroes are needed as compared to the MCU because the DCEU heroes and villains are all basically gods doesn't make any sense because again, the military or any police force has never done a good job at handling such situations. That's literally why American superheroes were invented.


Last I checked, Steve still needed the Howling Commandos in World War 2. Agent Carter and Agents of SHIELD shows civilians authorities handling threats all the time without the help of even a single Avenger.

----------


## Elmo

I wish Flash could come out of my phone

----------


## Troian

I hate the destruction complaints. If someone can move massive objects with ease and see people moving in slow motion you're not using common sense if you expect a superpowered fight to have little to no damage.

Anyways loving the Flash one.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I just want to see Mera in action fighting side by side with Wondy. Also why is Aquaman trident not gold?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I live in NY, definitely going to check it out.


Couchsurfing! New******.Friend.

----------


## ChrisLyne

> For me I think it's not that simple. I don't mind a ton of destruction when superhero fights go down. Hell, I liked the fight scenes in MoS. I think the destruction can be dramatic too, which I like. MoS may have gone a bit overboard showing so many buildings collapsing in all these perfectly framed shots but I don't that's just the main problem. For me, I just don't feel a sense of heroism when I watch those fight scenes.
> 
> If you watch the Battle of New York in the first Avengers movie, it has the same thing as the MoS fight scenes: superpowered beings (though none are as powerful as DCEU's Supes, except Thor or Hulk) fighting in a populated city against the enemy while the city gets destroyed. The key difference is what is done before, during and after this fight scene. 
> 
> The Avengers movie (and other MCU movies before it) establish that each member of the team just want to do the right thing before the big battle. This is very clear in the case of Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and even Black Widow. Hawkeye is the only one that perhaps doesn't have such development but it doesn't really matter. Also, in the midst of all of the destruction, Cap saves two cops a bunch of other people in a restaurant or café (which almost kills him), Black Widow and Hawkeye help some children out of a school bus, and even Hulk stops a Leviathan from entering an office with civilians in it. In addition, many of them also end up in danger. Caps manages to survive an explosion, gets shot and is visibly hurt, Hawkeye runs out of arrows and basically has to flee, Hulk gets swarmed by Chitauri and Iron Man gets downed at a point and he also has to almost sacrifice his life to get rid of the nuke headed towards NYC (and him having to do it is also well explained because he finds out about it first and is already on it). Finally after the battle, even though the Avengers are controversial, there are people who adore them, idolise them, and have earned their gratitude and respect for saving their lives (and rightfully so, and the audience believes it because we see it), while also mourning the dead.
> 
> See, I don't get that sense of heroism from MoS or BvS. MoS tried to do it, but Snyder's style is just overtly violent with no heart behind it for me. There's only one scene I can remember when Superman saves a soldier falling from a helicopter, but the Battle of Metropolis is basically just Supes and Zod punching each other and throwing shit at each other and driving each other through more shit until Supes breaks Zod's neck. While the fight scenes looked really cool, I feel like they could have been better choreographed to give them a higher sense of danger and drama. The final fight could have been a mix between what we got, and having Zod deliberately endanger humans by flying of with them and tossing them away or trying to kill them in any other way, making it harder for Supes to save them and defeat Zod. This would show how low Zod had descended and how evil he had become, and how Supes will do all he can to help and save humanity. It could also be a way of Zod pushing Supes' limits.
> 
> So far, only Wonder Woman managed to depict this sense of heroism, especially with the No Man's Land. Wondy does what is right, even though it's not what she is supposed to do, saves innocent lives, defeats the bad guys and inspires the soldiers to fight with her and look up to her.


I've not posted on these boards since before they changed and literally re-registered just to say how much I agree with this. The battle of Metropolis looks spectacular but it lacks the heart it needed to really hit home.

I think the problem was the constructive criticism got lost in the mass of "man of murder" and "destruction porn" shouting. The Avengers comparison is fair. Yes, they are a team and Superman is one man, he can't be everywhere or save everyone. Yes, in a "realistic" battle between Superman & Zod there would be a lot of destruction and, yes, death. That wasn't the problem. Look at the Smallville battle, moments like telling people to get to safety, catching the soldier and "he's not our enemy" elevate that scene so much compared to the final battle where it is literally Superman and Zod going at it until the neck snap. It was just a brawl and the ending of it didn't feel earned.

Zod started the fight saying he was going to make people suffer and kill them one by one. Like you say, it should have been Zod going after people not Superman. So we see Superman constantly saving people, attacking Zod to take his focus off the people or literally using his body as a shield and getting pummelled for it. He would be successful but we'd see he was paying the price and couldn't keep it up forever. The audience should reach the conclusion Superman has to kill Zod before the movie gets there rather than it just seeming like they ran out of screen time and needed to end the fight. As much as I hate Superman killing Zod and feel it was the wrong choice creatively, if you are going to do it you need to earn it and pay it off. MoS did neither. That simple change to the fight, along with an epilogue scene to the battle (paying off Zod's death and its affect on Superman with more than just a scream of anguish) would have got rid of almost every criticism of the battle.

But like I said, this level of constructive criticism got lost, so in BvS they went to the other extreme and just moved the action to an abandoned area. It was the wrong response. Because it wasn't really the level of destruction that was the problem, it was that Superman didn't appear heroic enough.  Now here he was with Batman and Wonder Woman (so there were other heroes who could help with the fight and saving civilians) and the fight took place on an abandoned island in the dark. Superman vs Doomsday and his death needed to be in the middle of Metropolis (and preferably in the daylight) with the people there to see him fight and die for them even though they had turned against him. So it again the ending felt a little off and didn't feel earned (this certainly wasn't helped by it only being the second film and a divisive Superman who hadn't properly connected with audiences either).

And to bring it back to Justice League it looks like the same might be happening again. I hope not, people need to see these heroes and see them fight for them as Wonder Woman did so well with the No Man's Land scene.  You can have massive city wide destruction, heck you could even say films of this magnitude need it for the threat to be real, as long as you don't revel in that destruction and you show that the heroes care and are actively fighting against it. Show them saving someone (other than poor Lois, give her a break) during these climatic battles, let them be heroic and let them enjoy the victory, at this point they've earned it and so have we.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Clark saving the workers from the oil rig _is_ extremely typical and expected of a titular hero. It's been done countless times and really, if we're gonna go by what Clark was taught as a kid, he shouldn't have even saved those guys. This is the same guy that trashed a guy's truck all because he was rude to him and a waitress, and actually stopped dead in his tracks while his father was in the midst of a tornado rescuing the family dog (and let him do it in the first place). So really, Clark is not the best example of moral character. Also, I was talking about saving people in fight scenes so I'm afraid that's goal post shifting.


I agreed with your previous post. The scene needed heroism and heart. They could have been done it by the way you described it.  But simple scenes after the Zod fight like helping out the people would have done the job too. But this post has some things that i don't agree with.


It is wrong to call him immoral. Jonathan never said that he shall let the people die in the bus. His word was 'maybe'. See Jonathan is someone who is conflicted. He wanted to save his son. Had Clark's abilities been discovered he would be taken away. He would be put in danger. His response is that of any parent. To protect the child. Parents worry for their children. They shall be safe at all costs. But he is a decent man. He can't in right mind say that Clark shall not save the children. Thus, a maybe. 

Clark Kent wanted to help people. Right from the beginning. But Jonathan insisted that he shall find out why he is here? He is more important than anything else. Because he is the answer to the question 'Are we alone in the universe?' He knew that Clark will grow up and help the people. But he shall wait before doing something hasty. He shall find the answers first. To emphasize this to Clark he sacrificed himself. That was his wish. Clark respected that wish. Look at his anguish when following that order. We don't know if he could actually save him. But he would surely be discovered. You can see the conflict. He told him he was not his son a while back. He had to carry out his father's order as a son. At the same time he could not let him die. I will not call that immoral. That would be like saying that he wanted his father to die.

Truck guy deserved that. He tried to molest the waiter. He stood up for her. He managed to have quite a good control on his anger imo. You can notice that the waitress stopped him from fighting. He gave a punishment. Whether too much or too little it is up for debate. But you can't let one walk away who treats women like trash. He always stood up for the weak. That was the point of the scene. 

He is not the best example of a moral character. Morality is not always black and white. Should he have left his father die? Or should he have believed Jonathan's conviction that his or anyone's life is less important than finding out his purpose? Shall he walk away leaving that creep free to molest other woman? Or shall he give him a fitting punishment to stop him? He is learning. At the same time he is searching for the answers. In his search he was always trying to help people. Take a notice of the fact that no one actually tells him to help people. He simply wants to do that by himself.




> Secondly, Superman learning to fly a day or two before Zod's arrival is irrelevant because he doesn't seem to have any trouble using _any_ of his powers (except heat vision). He even brags about it in front of Zod.


Not all his powers developed simultaneously. His super sight and hearing developed a long ago. His mother taught him how to control that. The most important thing which he learnt a few days ago was flight. On top of that he had never been in a fight before. He had to fight against some really powerful enemies. He was outmatched and outgunned. It was like trying to run when you have just about learnt to walk. It was always going to be messy. 

I watched the scene yet again. He did not punch Zod into any building. Either he was punched/thrown into them. Look carefully. He was outmatched by Zod almost throughout the fight. The blame lies on Zod. The scene is very fast and we often think that Clark was doing damage. Rather he was pushed or thrown most of the time. At best he scrapped Zod's head besides a building. And his punch threw him into a building under construction. He was trying to save everyone from someone who was equal in his abilities and was a trained warrior. He brags about that and calls Superman to be trained in a barn. He was! And he never threw a punch what to speak of being trained. The scene is available for everyone to see.

I have no problems with the scene. It is logical considered the parameters of the film. A guy who never threw a punch vs an equal who has trained all his life as a general.  It could have been made better by showing that he is trying to save people but failing. But the best way to end the fight was to show him helping out people in the debris. The scene is really cool to look at.

----------


## Agent Z

> I've not posted on these boards since before they changed and literally re-registered just to say how much I agree with this. The battle of Metropolis looks spectacular but it lacks the heart it needed to really hit home.
> 
> I think the problem was the constructive criticism got lost in the mass of "man of murder" and "destruction porn" shouting. The Avengers comparison is fair. Yes, they are a team and Superman is one man, he can't be everywhere or save everyone. Yes, in a "realistic" battle between Superman & Zod there would be a lot of destruction and, yes, death. That wasn't the problem. Look at the Smallville battle, moments like telling people to get to safety, catching the soldier and "he's not our enemy" elevate that scene so much compared to the final battle where it is literally Superman and Zod going at it until the neck snap. It was just a brawl and the ending of it didn't feel earned.
> 
> Zod started the fight saying he was going to make people suffer and kill them one by one. Like you say, it should have been Zod going after people not Superman. So we see Superman constantly saving people, attacking Zod to take his focus off the people or literally using his body as a shield and getting pummelled for it. He would be successful but we'd see he was paying the price and couldn't keep it up forever. The audience should reach the conclusion Superman has to kill Zod before the movie gets there rather than it just seeming like they ran out of screen time and needed to end the fight. As much as I hate Superman killing Zod and feel it was the wrong choice creatively, if you are going to do it you need to earn it and pay it off. MoS did neither. That simple change to the fight, along with an epilogue scene to the battle (paying off Zod's death and its affect on Superman with more than just a scream of anguish) would have got rid of almost every criticism of the battle.
> 
> But like I said, this level of constructive criticism got lost, so in BvS they went to the other extreme and just moved the action to an abandoned area. It was the wrong response. Because it wasn't really the level of destruction that was the problem, it was that Superman didn't appear heroic enough.  Now here he was with Batman and Wonder Woman (so there were other heroes who could help with the fight and saving civilians) and the fight took place on an abandoned island in the dark. Superman vs Doomsday and his death needed to be in the middle of Metropolis (and preferably in the daylight) with the people there to see him fight and die for them even though they had turned against him. So it again the ending felt a little off and didn't feel earned (this certainly wasn't helped by it only being the second film and a divisive Superman who hadn't properly connected with audiences either).
> 
> And to bring it back to Justice League it looks like the same might be happening again. I hope not, people need to see these heroes and see them fight for them as Wonder Woman did so well with the No Man's Land scene.  You can have massive city wide destruction, heck you could even say films of this magnitude need it for the threat to be real, as long as you don't revel in that destruction and you show that the heroes care and are actively fighting against it. Show them saving someone (other than poor Lois, give her a break) during these climatic battles, let them be heroic and let them enjoy the victory, at this point they've earned it and so have we.


Bruce flat out states that he deliberately lured Doomsday to an abandoned area to avoid casualties. There are different ways to display heroism. Not every heroic act has to be the same way. I'd rather the Justice League keep civilians out of it all together than endanger them just so they look better for the camera. As if the handful of people they distract themselves saving does anything for the millions more dead. 

The idea that Superman doesn't appear heroic enough is disingenuous. It ignores context, places insane standards on the character and sacrifices story logic in favour visual appeal (ironic given this is what Snyder gets accused of).

----------


## ChrisLyne

> Bruce flat out states that he deliberately lured Doomsday to an abandoned area to avoid casualties. There are different ways to display heroism. Not every heroic act has to be the same way. I'd rather the Justice League keep civilians out of it all together than endanger them just so they look better for the camera. As if the handful of people they distract themselves saving does anything for the millions more dead.


I never said the heroes shouldn't try (in universe) to move the fight away from populated areas. All I was saying is I feel that (out of universe) they over responded to the criticism by going straight from "destruction porn" to "totally abandoned" in doing so they took away the opportunity to show the heroes being heroes and saving people. Yes, they can't save everyone but they save as many as they can.

And this is a movie, sometimes you do things (out of universe) to make them look better on camera. As long as you stay true to the heart of characters that's not a major issue. Having heroes deliberately (in universe) keep the fight in a populated area to showboat for the camera is bad, but crafting a story (out of universe) where the fight takes place in a populated area and using that to show the heroes saving people as best they can isn't a bad thing.




> The idea that Superman doesn't appear heroic enough is disingenuous. It ignores context, places insane standards on the character and sacrifices story logic in favour visual appeal (ironic given this is what Snyder gets accused of).


I get the context - first day on the job, focusing on Zod as that saves more in the long run, on his own with no team helping to protect people, etc - but the whole thing was essentially just a super powered fist fight. None of the changes suggested for the MoS fight sacrifice story logic, in fact it builds on Zod's line that he was going to take the people from Superman one by one and uses that to give the film the ability to show Superman saving people, giving him those heroic moments, whilst building more effectively IMO to its climax where Superman makes that sacrifice for humanity.

Yes, there are different types of heroism. I remember well the video of how many people Superman saves in MoS and loved the way it would go "saved the world, saved 7 billion people" a few times. And that's true. But 7 billion is a statistic and film is a visual medium. Often in film saving one person can have more emotional impact than saving the world (the scenes of Perry & Lombard staying with Jenny are extremely well done). Seeing Superman save people during the Zod battle would, IMO, have given a better emotional connection & response from the audience. The end result is the same, Zod is dead and Superman saved the world by making a horrific sacrifice. Yes, that is heroic, but by showing smaller, more personal heroic moments, saving individual people would, again IMO, connected better with audiences and reduced a lot of the criticism that the fight receives.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I think the disconnect here is that some (or even many) people want warm fuzzy heroics, personal interactions with civilians, and not just acts of bravery that save unseen people. I personally think a few more scenes like that would have helped but didn't think it was sorely missing. Nor did I think the Avengers were extremely heroic in that sense either.

----------


## ChrisLyne

> I think the disconnect here is that some (or even many) people want warm fuzzy heroics, personal interactions with civilians, and not just acts of bravery that save unseen people. I personally think a few more scenes like that would have helped but didn't think it was sorely missing. Nor did I think the Avengers were extremely heroic in that sense either.


You said it far more succinctly than I could. That is basically it, the personal saves vs the world saves. The world saves will always be in movies like this but I feel they need the personal saves as well to give it a better emotional resonance with audiences. Avengers/MCU in general certainly isn't a perfect example but at least they do it.

----------


## Confuzzled

Mercedes Benz created two special models for Diana and Bruce in the movie!

----------


## Soubhagya

> I think the disconnect here is that some (or even many) people want warm fuzzy heroics, personal interactions with civilians, and not just acts of bravery that save unseen people. I personally think a few more scenes like that would have helped but didn't think it was sorely missing. Nor did I think the Avengers were extremely heroic in that sense either.


I think you have made one extremely important point. Man of Steel and BvS  would have benefited by that. I haven't seen SS. And one of the best scenes in WW was No Man's Land. Marvel attempts to do that. Hope JL tries this.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Get ready for the all new #JusticeLeague trailer this Sunday at 9AM ET/6AM PT."_



https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...32284856360960

----------


## Vanguard-01

> _"Get ready for the all new #JusticeLeague trailer this Sunday at 9AM ET/6AM PT."_
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...32284856360960


Well, it's a good idea that it's coming out early Sunday. The Star Wars trailer is coming out on Monday, so an early release gives Justice League a solid 24-hour window to marshall fan response.

----------


## Soubhagya

So it is Saturday morning here. I won't be getting it before Sunday evening. A day and 8 1/2 hours. Let me be extra busy today. Time will move faster. (Hopefully)

----------


## Vanguard-01

Teaser! All aboard the hype train!  :Big Grin:

----------


## ekrolo2

I suspected that Whedon was the guy to add in the red sky and given the shots with it here vs the first trailers without them, I think I was right.

----------


## ChrisLyne

Whoever it was, I like it. Red skies always come with a crisis  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Kid

Isn't the Star Wars trailer coming out the day after? Might have been better to give more space between the two films although I doubt it really matters

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Isn't the Star Wars trailer coming out the day after? Might have been better to give more space between the two films although I doubt it really matters


I thought the same thing. 

At least it's coming out early tomorrow. It'll have nearly 24 hours to get people talking before the Star Wars trailer drops. 

Better than nothing.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

*Sigh*

I'm pretty sure the first official Ragnarok trailer still has millions of more views than JL's first official one. Keep in mind WB released JL's on March 25th, which I think was a Saturday. Ragnarok was a weekday just before or after and was able to get much more traffic.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> *Sigh*
> 
> I'm pretty sure the first official Ragnarok trailer still has millions of more views than JL's first official one. Keep in mind WB released JL's on March 25th, which I think was a Saturday. Ragnarok was a weekday just before or after and was able to get much more traffic.


BvS's reception, the director, and the director switch is going to affect JL's publicity... it is unavoidable.  Hopefully WW's reception will help cancel out some of the negative vibes.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> *Sigh*
> 
> I'm pretty sure the first official Ragnarok trailer still has millions of more views than JL's first official one. Keep in mind WB released JL's on March 25th, which I think was a Saturday. Ragnarok was a weekday just before or after and was able to get much more traffic.


42 to 31, although there's also a separate one with the "comic-con" headline that adds another 6 million and a few more millions on different videos showing the same trailer. And the first teaser trailer as well which has 25.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> BvS's reception, the director, and the director switch is going to affect JL's publicity... it is unavoidable.  Hopefully WW's reception will help cancel out some of the negative vibes.


That appears to be part of their strategy at least. If you look at ANY of the group pics they've released lately, Diana is front and center in every. Single. One. Usually, she's also the most brightly-colored one as well. 

They're DEFINITELY trying to bank on Diana's success, and it may just work.

----------


## Confuzzled

The Justice League official trailers have been viewed over a larger number of different YouTube channels than the Thor: Ragnarok ones. I read it somewhere but I don't remember where.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## TheSupernaut

> That appears to be part of their strategy at least. If you look at ANY of the group pics they've released lately, Diana is front and center in every. Single. One. Usually, she's also the most brightly-colored one as well. 
> 
> They're DEFINITELY trying to bank on Diana's success, and it may just work.


Keep in mind Diana was also front and center in BvS marketing too.

----------


## Soubhagya

> 


The trailer was good. I did not like the music choice. The previous one was too good. Zimmer's use was perfect.

And how did it start!!! I felt so relieved and happy. (The scene is shot POV of Lois). And....then broke it. I am not angry though. I saw his monument(JL is one?). Hopefully the film will have more of Lois. And more of Cavill then such sequences. Man that was perfect. This is what i would have imagined their reunion to be like. Hope the real one lives up to this.

Then Flash. He is the fan. Isn't he? Why do i have the feeling that i will like his role the most? I would definitely say that if i ever see the bat signal!

Teamwork! Importance of being united. 

Smiles! They are going out of their way to show that.  

Steppenwolf. He continues his intimidating streak. Not as effective as the previous trailer as the voice was not heard. But he is definitely dangerous. 

Liked that they did not spoil anything. Hope they continue like that.

And finally so few days. I am finally getting a JL movie! Pardon me if i repeat it like an obnoxious child but i feel like an excited child.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Y'know, I don't think Miller and Momoa are reflective of their characters all that much, personality-wise, but darn it if they don't just look like they're going to be a lot of fun to watch  :Stick Out Tongue: .

If nothing else, Steppenwolf looks like he's going to be more of a genuine threat to the whole team then some of the MCU Avengers villains.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Just going by my guts and not analyzing anything... I will watch it in theatres. I know THAT NOW

----------


## Lightning Rider

The action looks amazing. WW, Aquaman especially kicking ass. The coordination between the League members is what sells it for me too. Hard to coordinate and pull off but that chemistry is what makes the League great. 

That opening scene with Clark was very touching though. It was beautifully shot and acted. We also can't be sure that it's a dream sequence, but I'm glad it was presented as one.

----------


## Vanguard-01

FINALLY got to see it! Loved it! 

I love how they started with Lois dreaming of Clark. There is NO such thing as too much Amy Adams!  :Smile: 

I also agree with what others have said: they showed JUST enough Superman without ruining anything. Now people know he's going to be in the movie, but they still don't know when or how. WB definitely learned from the Doomsday mistake in BvS, that's for sure!

Steppenwolf looks like a complete BEAST, and I can't wait to see how big of a threat he can be. 

Batman? Still looking good, and I love how they're showing a little bit of humor to him this time around. That little exchange of looks between him and Diana while Barry nerds out over the Bat Signal? Fantastic! I'm definitely seeing why Zack Snyder mentioned that it was the chemistry between Gal and Affleck that really sold him on casting Diana. That little, nonverbal exchange between the two of them just spoke volumes. 

Wonder Woman? MAN, they're making her look great! That shot of her on that statue? Holy crap! That's EASILY on par with any of the great hero shots in cinema history. That flipping sword catch? Awesome! Gal continues to reinforce that she IS Wonder Woman. 

Aquaman? I still love him! He may not be the most traditional Aquaman, but I don't give a crap! He's going to be so much fun to watch and this movie should DEFINITELY get people pumped for his movie next year. 

Flash? Still great! I guarantee you, Ezra Miller is going to steal the audience's heart in this movie and I'm really loving the effects they've come up with for when he uses his powers. 

Cyborg? He wasn't in it much, but I think his CGI is definitely looking better, and that little exchange between him and Aquaman makes me think he's not going to just dour and depressed all the time. There seemed to be some real camaraderie between those two in that scene. 

I love how they're emphasizing the importance of coming together as a team. I love the hopeful message. Heck, I loved just about everything!

----------


## Vanguard-01

International trailer. A little extra footage in it. 

I kinda noticed that Wonder Woman looks like she's at least partially involved in persuading Cyborg to join the team. I like that. Batman doesn't need ALL the credit for building the team.

----------


## Elmo

It looks SO GOOD. I know I'm going to geek out and cry over Superman

----------


## adrikito

This is about Aquaman movie:

https://www.newsarama.com/36841-sain...n-aquaman.html

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This is about Aquaman movie:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/36841-sain...n-aquaman.html


Hmmmm. I'm getting a King Nereus vibe out of him?

----------


## Elmo

> Hmmmm. I'm getting a King Nereus vibe out of him?


that's who Dolph Lundgren is playing

----------


## Styles

Trailer was lit, got me hyped

----------


## Styles

JL Trailers Clark Kent Scene Parallels Superman: The Movie

----------


## MosSuperman

> International trailer. A little extra footage in it. 
> 
> I kinda noticed that Wonder Woman looks like she's at least partially involved in persuading Cyborg to join the team. I like that. Batman doesn't need ALL the credit for building the team.


Screenshot_20171008-143439.jpg Who's this?

----------


## batnbreakfast

When do we get Aquadude#s trailer? In front of Justice League?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Trailer was lit, got me hyped


Superheroes smiling... 90% on Rotten Tomatoes guaranteed.  :Wink:

----------


## Elmo

> Screenshot_20171008-143439.jpg Who's this?


It's most likely an amazon from the beginning scene on Theymiscara

----------


## Vanguard-01

> that's who Dolph Lundgren is playing


Whoops! I was thinking about the OTHER Atlantean King Aquaman fought. The Dead King? 




> It's most likely an amazon from the beginning scene on Theymiscara


Yep. Seems likely.

Either that or it could be Apollo? There's a rumor that the flashback may show the Olympian Gods helping out in the war against Darkseid.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Hype through the roof! We knew from the other trailers that Superman is being mourned by the world, but I was worried Lois grief might be glossed over. This trailer shows, instead of telling, how she is still mourning as well and I feel thats very important. One of the biggest parts of the original Death/Return story was showing how his abscence affected Lois, and she was our POV character to feel that loss. Obviously she was always going to play that role in this film, but the way they are doing it through dreams is just wonderful. Much more effective than her spouting a page of dialogue about it. Bravo Snyder & Terrio! 

The rest of the trailer is fantastic as well. Hearing Batman, of all people, say the world needs Superman helps make up for his dickishness during their fight, as well :P  I made him a promise. Love it.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

LOL...



https://twitter.com/Bosslogic/status...6914451632128/

----------


## Elmo

Don't do that; gives me hope that Clark and Hal will marry in the DCEU  :Frown:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Don't do that; gives me hope that Clark and Hal will marry in the DCEU


It's going to happen eventually if Clark divorces from Lois.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

JL credits...





https://twitter.com/BatmanNewsCom/st...67493671804929

----------


## batnbreakfast

> It's going to happen eventually if Clark divorces from Lois.


I'm hoping for Clark and Bruce but it looks like we'll get Di and Bruce :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Soubhagya

> LOL...
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Bosslogic/status...6914451632128/


Warning! Spoiler(s) ahead. 

1) There would be a wedding. But not of those two who were predicted in some circles.

2) Superman brings GL to JL. He unites the seven. 

3) There is a Green Lantern in the movie. GL is not Hal Jordan. GL is not John Stewart. GL is not even Abin Sur. Lois Lane is Green Lantern. She is the key. 

How about a plot twist?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Hmmmm. I'm getting a King Nereus vibe out of him?


I bet it's Atlan.

----------


## Frontier

So many fan art or mock-ups teasing GL. I guess that means fans do care  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Johnny

> So many fan art or mock-ups teasing GL. I guess that means fans do care .


Fans do, the chickenshits in charge don't.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Fans do, the chickenshits in charge don't.


Going by the sales of Green Lantern home video films and tv ratings for Green Lantern: First Flight, it doesn't seem like devoted fans for GL are limitless.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I've been thinking about Batman's stance on Superman in JL and I feel like a more interesting angle for him and the movie would have been Batman still thinking Superman was untrustworthy, but be having tough time admitting to himself and to, say, Wonder Woman that the world needs Superman, since the combined team just won't be enough to take on Steppenwolf and the Parademons.

A part of him will never forgive himself for trying to kill Superman while also feeling responsible for his death, while the other side will still think Superman could be a threat to the world. Wonder Woman and the rest of team could try and help Bats see the good in metahumans and Superman would have to forgive him at the end.

I'll still watch the movie and I'm sure I'll be cool with whatever arc happens but I was actually expecting more of this before I watched BvS.

----------


## Johnny

> Going by the sales of Green Lantern home video films and tv ratings for Green Lantern: First Flight, it doesn't seem like devoted fans for GL are limitless.


I mean, First Flight sold better than the animated Wonder Woman film, but that's beside the point. Everyone knows why GL isn't in Justice League and I'm calling WB out on it. Marvel didn't do that with Hulk who's had two bad movies prior to showing up in Avengers, WB could've chosen not to do it with GL either, yet they did. They are cowards for it and that's all there is to it. Don't tell me how much money the 2011 movie lost, that's on WB, not on the Green Lantern character(s). The GL franchise didn't have to keep suffering all these years later because of the studio's incompetence.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> I mean, *First Flight sold better than the animated Wonder Woman film,* but that's beside the point. Everyone knows why GL isn't in Justice League and I'm calling WB out on it. Marvel didn't do that with Hulk who's had two bad movies prior to showing up in Avengers, WB could've chosen not to do it with GL either, yet they did. They are cowards for it and that's all there is to it. Don't tell me how much money the 2011 movie lost, that's on WB, not on the Green Lantern character(s). The GL franchise didn't have to keep suffering all these years later because of the studio's incompetence.


No, Wonder Woman ultimately sold more units than First Flight, just at a slower pace.
Also, Hulk is easier to produce than a GL film.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

Why are her arms glowing?

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> It's most likely an amazon from the beginning scene on Theymiscara


Why are her arms glowing?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Why are her arms glowing?


Magical bow? The Amazons are supposed to have an arsenal of magical weapons, and boy is this a good time to break them out. 

Or, as I said earlier, it's possible it's one of the gods. There's a rumor that the Olympians helped out in the fight against Darkseid, after all.

----------


## Johnny

> No, Wonder Woman ultimately sold more units than First Flight, just at a slower pace.


It didn't, here's both films' overall performance on home video to this day.

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Gre...ht#tab=summary

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Won...9)#tab=summary





> Also, Hulk is easier to produce than a GL film.


It's still full of CGI and that wasn't the point.

----------


## Styles

New ‘Justice League’ TV Spot

----------


## Vanguard-01

> New ‘Justice League’ TV Spot


Diana busting out the Aegis Effect to protect civilians? Yeah, I think I can pretty much die happy now!  :Smile:

----------


## Flash Gordon

I still think Superman dying/returning would have made a good flick in and of itself. The spiritual journey of Kal-El of Krypton. 

I guess this works, too.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> New ‘Justice League’ TV Spot


At the beginning, when the League is rising up on the platform, there are SIX of them. The 6th is obscured, but perhaps it’s Mera? We can only see the top of the head.


Edit: after watching on a screen larger than my phone, it may just be Alfred lol Disregard :P

----------


## Elmo

Yeah that's definitely Alfred

----------


## Styles

I'm ready for JL

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> New Justice League TV Spot


That big grin on Flash's face knowing he's about to see the Batcave.  LOL!!
One of us!!

----------


## Robotman

> That big grin on Flash's face knowing he's about to see the Batcave.  LOL!!
> One of us!!


That really goes along with Silver Age Barry who was a comic book nerd.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I mean, First Flight sold better than the animated Wonder Woman film, but that's beside the point. Everyone knows why GL isn't in Justice League and I'm calling WB out on it. Marvel didn't do that with Hulk who's had two bad movies prior to showing up in Avengers, WB could've chosen not to do it with GL either, yet they did. They are cowards for it and that's all there is to it. Don't tell me how much money the 2011 movie lost, that's on WB, not on the Green Lantern character(s). The GL franchise didn't have to keep suffering all these years later because of the studio's incompetence.


GLTAS and the then arriving live action movie probably helped the uptick of First Flight sales. But during 2010, even I remember Wonder Woman being firmly ahead of FF (which I think was what 52 was referring to). 

Also, DC's "Hulk" (an OP WMD of sorts) is Superman. They don't really need GL. And The Incredible Hulk, despite its underperformance, was still firmly part of the MCU with Tony Stark even appearing in the after-credits, so they couldn't just dump him despite of things. And 50-70% of the time, Hulk is just Banner in these MCU films, so they save a lot of CGI budget.

----------


## adrikito

I saw another video here with the other 2:

https://www.newsarama.com/36874-3-30...ce-league.html




Repeated scenes and The actors speaking a little.

----------


## adrikito

> i'm ready for jl


hahahahaah... I liked these figures..

----------


## El_Gato

http://www.cbr.com/shazam-film-casti...FB-P&view=list

So according to this casting call we are going to get Eugene, Pedro and Darla in the Shazam movie!! That's pretty awesome! Freddy was also confirmed as well. Only Mary is missing.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Allegations of sexual assault against Ben Affleck are now coming out in the wake of his statement against Harvey Weinstein. This is not a good look at all. First, if true, it's a horrible thing outside of any movie, DC related or not. Second, this is now the second big name associated with Justice League that has received allegations such as this (Joss Whedon). With the Weinstein story only getting bigger, I can imagine the media will jump all over this and potentially tainting the JL movie brand in a very harmful and damaging way. 

Not good.

----------


## Johnny

Goddammit, I'm so hoping this isn't true. Ben has obviously had his fare share of personal demons, but I sincerely hope he wasn't a scumbag like Weinstein. In any event, this would give JL negative publicity for sure and probably add even more fuel to the rumors that WB is looking to recast Batman.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I’m curious how this will play out...
It’s gross, inappropriate, etc. BUT, it could be worse (rape, murder, etc.). It’s all wrong and I don’t agree with any of it, but we need to understand the scope of what’s being reported. 

I’m still seeing JL, no matter what. Moving forward, depending on what comes out and is true, it may impact my view of Affleck and whether I support his other movies.

----------


## Jokerz79

Given his brothers past and now Rose McGowan saying he knew in the 90's about Weinstein I wouldn't be shocked. But plenty of films I love had scumbags involved so I'll hope this doesn't impact the Justice League film and just him if true.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Given his brothers past and now Rose McGowan saying he knew in the 90's about Weinstein I wouldn't be shocked. But plenty of films I love had scumbags involved so I'll hope this doesn't impact the Justice League film and just him if true.


I remember Gwen Paltrow really had some negative remarks about Affleck after they stopped dating in the late 90's about how much of a misogynist he was. Also, apparently Affleck's best bud, Matt Damon, helped cover up Weinstein's behavior when the NYT were about to release an story exposing him. Damon helped kill the story. All this makes Affleck, at the very least, look like a giant liar in the face of the statement he put out yesterday, and at worst, another predator to add to the list. 

Not. Good. At. All.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I remember Gwen Paltrow really had some negative remarks about Affleck after they stopped dating in the late 90's about how much of a misogynist he was. Also, apparently Affleck's best bud, Matt Damon, helped cover up Weinstein's behavior when the NYT were about to release an story exposing him. Damon helped kill the story. All this makes Affleck, at the very least, look like a giant liar in the face of the statement he put out yesterday, and at worst, another predator to add to the list. 
> 
> Not. Good. At. All.


That's horrible news. So sad right now. Wish I hadn't read that.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Yea, theres so many celebrities with checkered pasts, etc. 
Affleck would be one among many who are out there. 
Very disappointing, but Im not sure we should treat this too seriously right at this moment. Well see what happens, but if JL ends up getting hit because of this, thats upsetting on many levels.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yea, theres so many celebrities with checkered pasts, etc. 
> Affleck would be one among many who are out there. 
> Very disappointing, but Im not sure we should treat this too seriously right at this moment. Well see what happens, but if JL ends up getting hit because of this, thats upsetting on many levels.


Agree. The actual accusation being levied against Affleck is that he groped an MTV VJ back in 2003. The footage was just released since it occurred live on air. Honestly, while he was a douche for doing that, and it clearly made her feel violated so it's a freaking problem, it's not in the same universe as the Weinstein allegations. If this is the only accuser that comes out against Affleck, my professional opinion (I'm a communications/PR consultant) is that this could blow over with the majority of coverage focusing on Weinstein. 

Affleck should apologize to the woman he groped and apologize with zero caveats. No, "I was young and stupid" or "I now realize what I did was wrong." It needs to be a sincere, "Let me tell you how much it bothers me that I did this and what I truly stand for as a 48 year old man and let me make it up to you and others who have suffered in the following ways..." He should also get in touch with the woman through a third party (in case she's uneasy with him going directly to her) and try to make his apology known personally.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Agree. The actual accusation being levied against Affleck is that he groped an MTV VJ back in 2003. The footage was just released since it occurred live on air. Honestly, while he was a douche for doing that, and it clearly made her feel violated so it's a freaking problem, it's not in the same universe as the Weinstein allegations. If this is the only accuser that comes out against Affleck, my professional opinion (I'm a communications/PR consultant) is that this could blow over with the majority of coverage focusing on Weinstein. 
> 
> Affleck should apologize to the woman he groped and apologize with zero caveats. No, "I was young and stupid" or "I now realize what I did was wrong." It needs to be a sincere, "Let me tell you how much it bothers me that I did this and what I truly stand for as a 48 year old man and let me make it up to you and others who have suffered in the following ways..." He should also get in touch with the woman through a third party (in case she's uneasy with him going directly to her) and try to make his apology known personally.


The weird DCEU link is the woman he groped is Hilarie Burton the wife of Jeffery Dean Morgan DCEU's Thomas Wayne.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The weird DCEU link is the woman he groped is Hilarie Burton the wife of Jeffery Dean Morgan DCEU's Thomas Wayne.


Wow. Crazy link.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Well, he was quick to apologize, at any rate.  https://twitter.com/BenAffleck/statu...26autosize%3D1

Not sure how much weight an apology tweet holds, but it's a start.

----------


## Frontier

> http://www.cbr.com/shazam-film-casti...FB-P&view=list
> 
> So according to this casting call we are going to get Eugene, Pedro and Darla in the Shazam movie!! That's pretty awesome! Freddy was also confirmed as well. Only Mary is missing.


Well, the wider adoptive family is one Johns element that seems to be making it in. 

I wonder if they'll use the adoptive parents or use Uncle Dudley? 

And yeah, if we're getting everybody else then they've got to have Mary in there. It's not the Marvel Family without her. 



> The weird DCEU link is the woman he groped is Hilarie Burton the wife of Jeffery Dean Morgan DCEU's Thomas Wayne.


Man, that just makes all the mom/Martha stuff seem even weirder...

----------


## dianafan1985

> Well, he was quick to apologize, at any rate.  https://twitter.com/BenAffleck/statu...26autosize%3D1
> 
> Not sure how much weight an apology tweet holds, but it's a start.


The only person who can claim that  its a start is the person who he offended. And if he is only apologizing 14 years later because he got called out, I don't think it weighs that much.  I honestly don't get why it is so difficult for a man, and even a woman (in some cases) to keep their hands to themselves. It takes narcissism and privilege for a person to do something like this.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The only person who can claim that  its a start is the person who he offended. And if he is only apologizing 14 years later because he got called out, I don't think it weighs that much.  I honestly don't get why it is so difficult for a man, and even a woman (in some cases) to keep their hands to themselves. It takes narcissism and privilege for a person to do something like this.


Yeah, the fact that he took no action at all until this started to create problems for him doesn't cast him in a very good light.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, the fact that he took no action at all until this started to create problems for him doesn't cast him in a very good light.


Well, if he was a stand-up guy he wouldn't have done it in the first place. 

These people never apologize for the crap they've done until it goes public and it starts to get them bad PR. It's not the damage to other people they're sorry for, its getting caught. Far as Im concerned these apologies are worthless, they're not sincere on any level and might as well not be made at all. Who cares if they apologize twenty years later after the offending act has gone public?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Ugh, haven't been able to comment on this until now, but man is this seriously disappointing. I liked Affleck a lot, both as the character and even as a celeb, but I feel no sympathy as far as all of this goes if it all turns out to be true. Fat load of good the apology does this long after the fact, and only prompted when he gets caught.

The only thing I kind of feel bad for him for in the regard isn't even really him, but his kids. 

The Batman with Affleck most likely isn't happening now, and before I wouldn't have said this, but I can't really say I'm sad to see him go.

----------


## Frontier

If WB didn't have enough reason to recast Batman at this point, they probably do now.

----------


## nightrider

> I remember Gwen Paltrow really had some negative remarks about Affleck after they stopped dating in the late 90's about how much of a misogynist he was. Also, apparently Affleck's best bud, Matt Damon, helped cover up Weinstein's behavior when the NYT were about to release an story exposing him. Damon helped kill the story. All this makes Affleck, at the very least, look like a giant liar in the face of the statement he put out yesterday, and at worst, another predator to add to the list. 
> 
> Not. Good. At. All.


What has afflecks best Bud got to do with him?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The oddly specific side effects of this Flashpoint will include Bruce de-aging by a decade or so and looking like a completely different person, whereas everything else will go back normal.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> What has affleck’s best Bud got to do with him?


Their connection to Weinstein is famously linked to Good Will Hunting. Weinstein helped launch them both, and they were both very close with him.

----------


## Frontier

> The oddly specific side effects of this Flashpoint will include Bruce de-aging by a decade or so and looking like a completely different person, whereas everything else will go back normal.


At least it would probably fit with the proper DCU  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

Given Affleck's self-admitted problems with alcohol and marital infidelity (not to mention his younger brother's own behavior), it shouldn't really be all that surprising that he's acted very inappropriately while drunk in the past, but I haven't heard anything yet that's even close to the depths of scumbaggery that Weinstein sunk to. Same with Whedon, whose apparently only guilty of being a bad husband to a wife who thinks you can get PTSD from being cheated on.

None of these guys are perfect, nor have they claimed to be. Both have been very public about their failings in the past and will no doubt continue to screw up on occasion as we all do. 

Unfortunately, there's a segment of society, aided and abetted by media hungry for profit, that feeds on outrage and moral indignation. I'm not sure if the good will generated by the proud feminism of Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman will be enough to make a lot of movie goers put down their pitchforks and give Justice League a fair shake, particularly given how prominently featured both Affleck and Whedon are in the film.

We'll see how this plays out over the next month, but I guarantee you Geoff Johns and Diane Nelson are royally pissed right now.

----------


## Confuzzled

I don't think it's going to have an effect as some of you guys think. Bryan Singer's pederast/pedophile ring controversy blew up just a few weeks before _X-Men: Days of Future Past_ released too and yet its critical and commercial performances remained unaffected. And Singer went on to direct Apocalypse and now The Gifted.

In Affleck's case, it seems like a one-off groping incident 14 years ago (so far, though at this point I wouldn't be shocked if more stuff comes to light). It doesn't make it defensible, but there's a chance Affleck has reformed since then, even if he tried to hide it. It's up to how he and his PR crew handle it now. I doubt WB/DC will let him do many press rounds for Justice League. They'll continue to push Gal Gadot as the primary face of the franchise, which they've slowly been doing after Wonder Woman's overperformance anyway.  




> The weird DCEU link is the woman he groped is Hilarie Burton the wife of Jeffery Dean Morgan DCEU's Thomas Wayne.


And looks like Jeffrey Dean Morgan has a good working relationship with Zack Snyder because he's a repeat from _Watchmen_ (Morgan played The Comedian).

----------


## Lightning Rider

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...rriors-a154473

----------


## Elmo

paging anyone in a cape

----------


## Confuzzled

> In Affleck's case, it seems like a one-off groping incident 14 years ago (so far, though at this point I wouldn't be shocked if more stuff comes to light).


Sigh, turns out it wasn't a one-off incident:

Ben Affleck dubbed 'Buttman' as more groping allegations emerge

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> I don't think it's going to have an effect as some of you guys think. Bryan Singer's pederast/pedophile ring controversy blew up just a few weeks before _X-Men: Days of Future Past_ released too and yet its critical and commercial performances remained unaffected. And Singer went on to direct Apocalypse and now The Gifted.
> 
> In Affleck's case, it seems like a one-off groping incident 14 years ago (so far, though at this point I wouldn't be shocked if more stuff comes to light). It doesn't make it defensible, but there's a chance Affleck has reformed since then, even if he tried to hide it. It's up to how he and his PR crew handle it now. I doubt WB/DC will let him do many press rounds for Justice League. They'll continue to push Gal Gadot as the primary face of the franchise, which they've slowly been doing after Wonder Woman's overperformance anyway.  
> 
> And looks like Jeffrey Dean Morgan has a good working relationship with Zack Snyder because he's a repeat from _Watchmen_ (Morgan played The Comedian).


The accusations against Bryan Singer were by one guy who was quickly exposed as an extortionist. Affleck's problems are a little trickier because it's at least two different women now and, unlike Singer, Affleck has outright admitted his guilt, in addition to his public admission of infidelity. Whedon's issue is a little thornier because it's his still very angry ex-wife who's decided to air their dirty laundry in public because she was pissed off by his once unimpeachable reputation as a feminist. 

Like I said, I don't have a problem with either of these guys, but moderation and thoughtfulness has never been the strong point of our media, who smell a feeding frenzy of outrage and righteous indignation and they'll be looking for fresh blood once the Wienstein story stops getting people to generate the revenue they want.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

And Affleck's problems just got worse. Rose McGowan claims she outright told him to his face about what Weinstein had done to her and many other actresses, which contradicts Affleck's claims that he never knew about Weinstein's sexual misconduct until now. 

One of them is lying.

Who do you think is more credible at this point? A movie star with multiple accounts of unwanted groping, infidelity, alcoholism and trying to cover up his family's slave-owning past or an actress who has been claiming that a high profile Hollywood producer raped her for the last year?

Sorry guys. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is looking like it'll be a god damned PR nightmare for Justice League that will absolutely affect how many people will go to see this movie. Frankly, I don't really blame people for not wanting to plop down money to watch Ben Affleck pretend he's a superhero if all these accusations swirling around him get worse. 

It's a shame that Geoff Johns, Gal Gadot, Henry Cavill, Diane Nelson and the rest will likely have their movie torpedoed by crap they had absolutely nothing to do with, but I suspect that's going to be the case here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/m...tein.html?_r=0

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Given Affleck's self-admitted problems with alcohol and marital infidelity (not to mention his younger brother's own behavior), it shouldn't really be all that surprising that he's acted very inappropriately while drunk in the past, but I haven't heard anything yet that's even close to the depths of scumbaggery that Weinstein sunk to. Same with Whedon, whose apparently only guilty of being a bad husband to a wife who thinks you can get PTSD from being cheated on.
> 
> None of these guys are perfect, nor have they claimed to be. Both have been very public about their failings in the past and will no doubt continue to screw up on occasion as we all do. 
> 
> Unfortunately, there's a segment of society, aided and abetted by media hungry for profit, that feeds on outrage and moral indignation. I'm not sure if the good will generated by the proud feminism of Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman will be enough to make a lot of movie goers put down their pitchforks and give Justice League a fair shake, particularly given how prominently featured both Affleck and Whedon are in the film.
> 
> We'll see how this plays out over the next month, but I guarantee you Geoff Johns and Diane Nelson are royally pissed right now.


It might be unfair to go after Affleck alone when many men and women knew about theese charges and all kept silent. Being part of this "Its what we do" group makes it hard for individuals to stand up for their neighbors. BUT there's no excuse for the groping

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...rriors-a154473


That Atlantean soldier looks so good. I'm loving the aesthetic they chose for Atlantis so far

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> And Affleck's problems just got worse. Rose McGowan claims she outright told him to his face about what Weinstein had done to her and many other actresses, which contradicts Affleck's claims that he never knew about Weinstein's sexual misconduct until now. 
> 
> One of them is lying.
> 
> Who do you think is more credible at this point? A movie star with multiple accounts of unwanted groping, infidelity, alcoholism and trying to cover up his family's slave-owning past or an actress who has been claiming that a high profile Hollywood producer raped her for the last year?
> 
> Sorry guys. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is looking like it'll be a god damned PR nightmare for Justice League that will absolutely affect how many people will go to see this movie. Frankly, I don't really blame people for not wanting to plop down money to watch Ben Affleck pretend he's a superhero if all these accusations swirling around him get worse. 
> 
> It's a shame that Geoff Johns, Gal Gadot, Henry Cavill, Diane Nelson and the rest will likely have their movie torpedoed by crap they had absolutely nothing to do with, but I suspect that's going to be the case here.
> ...


I don't think it will have that significant of an affect,  people seem pretty willing to suspend their moral hang ups for entertainment purposes. 

However, if the movie doesn't do well, people will jump at the chance to blame it on Affleck. Personally, I'm conflicted on whether or not I'll be there when it opens, but deep down I know I probably will.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I don't think it will have that significant of an affect,  people seem pretty willing to suspend their moral hang ups for entertainment purposes. 
> 
> However, if the movie doesn't do well, people will jump at the chance to blame it on Affleck. Personally, I'm conflicted on whether or not I'll be there when it opens, but deep down I know I probably will.


I don't know times are changing The Birth of a Nation was getting tons of buzz in 2016 then the past rape allegations of Nate Parker and his best friend and co writer of the film came to light and the suicide of the alleged victim I use alleged to be fair since he wasn't convicted but I personally think he was guilty and it torpedoed that film. Now the Justice League isn't going to be hit as hard as a more indie film also Affleck is a bigger star and many fans won't care also his alleged actions aren't as bad as Nate Parker's. But I do think this might hurt Justice League and this will possibly stop the film from being part of the billion dollar club which before this I would had said was almost a No brainer.

----------


## Confuzzled

There's still a little over a month to go for the film's release so it's kind of premature to say this will have a noticeable effect. We'll see how Affleck and his PR team handles the mess in the coming days. WB may pressurise him to make a more elaborate statement/apology and he will probably be benched for most of the publicity rounds. Wondy/Flash/Aquaman/Cyborg will be focused on more and maybe even Lois & Clark.

They should also highlight and promote Amber Heard/Mera's involvement in the movie and future DCEU as people sympathize with her after the Johnny Depp incident.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> They should also highlight and promote Amber Heard/Mera's involvement in the movie and future DCEU as people sympathize with her after the Johnny Depp incident.


They may not want to go there, either. Amber Heard may not necessarily be the most reliable source. That could be just more PR spin though. Who knows?

----------


## manofsteel1979

I would not be surprised if Batman does indeed get recast sooner rather than later. 

At one time Josh Brolin had been eyed for Batman before Affleck got the part. Depending on how things go, I wonder if WB may hire him even for maybe one movie or two to play the current older Bruce Wayne before using FLASHPOINT to recast a younger actor to play Batman?  Brolin is likely done as Thanos after  Avengers 4, and Cable may be a one off for Deadpool, so it's possible he might end up getting a call just in case.

----------


## Jokerz79

Here's the thing the DCEU has never had a failure all the films made money it's just until Wonder Woman they didn't make what insiders thought they would and Hollywood is like hardcore gamblers. Meaning even when they win they always look at the table and think of the money they didn't win because they bet too low in their opinion. But then came WW and it was a hit across the board it was a critical hit, the audience loved it, and it did better than originally thought it would win in every way. Because of that big win they have rightfully put more focus on WW in the Justice League campaign but now we have film promoting a strong successful female hero who in most scenes is standing next to a character played by an actor accused of terrible allegations involving women. So you possibly now have fans and general audience members who will say I'll wait for WW2 to show my support and skip Justice League. Sadly it does seem like the DCEU is cursed sometimes because they never seem to be able to catch a break.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I would not be surprised if Batman does indeed get recast sooner rather than later. 
> 
> At one time Josh Brolin had been eyed for Batman before Affleck got the part. Depending on how things go, I wonder if WB may hire him even for maybe one movie or two to play the current older Bruce Wayne before using FLASHPOINT to recast a younger actor to play Batman?  Brolin is likely done as Thanks after  Avengers 4, so it's possible he might end up getting a call...


They could also use a Nightwing film to have Dick Grayson to transition into Batman. I mean especially if Reeves does prequels set in the DCEU they could have a younger Bruce and introduces Dick Grayson and the future League films could have the adult Grayson as the new Batman. Just some ideas if they didn't want to do a partial reboot.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> They could also use a Nightwing film to have Dick Grayson to transition into Batman. I mean especially if Reeves does prequels set in the DCEU they could have a younger Bruce and introduces Dick Grayson and the future League films could have the adult Grayson as the new Batman. Just some ideas if they didn't want to do a partial reboot.


I would hate this. That means we'd finally have a connected film universe without Bruce Wayne? No. I want Nightwing AND Batman. Just recast the thing with a younger Bruce Wayne whose timeline gets fused with the prime timeline in Flashpoint. Problem solved.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

(promo for Aquaman in the JL film, not his solo)

----------


## Lightning Rider

I still think recasting Bruce is just not going to work. Retcons don't work in films like that. The mainstream audience would have a hard time swallowing a different actor in the same universe. He's not a supporting character in a disguised and easily replicable getup like Dumbledore. I hope this gets addressed by Ben quickly. Either way I honestly don't think fans are going to object to seeing the movie wholesale because of this. All the same I have fears WB will recast him. But I so want him to stay.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> They could also use a Nightwing film to have Dick Grayson to transition into Batman. I mean especially if Reeves does prequels set in the DCEU they could have a younger Bruce and introduces Dick Grayson and the future League films could have the adult Grayson as the new Batman. Just some ideas if they didn't want to do a partial reboot.


I don't think that is gonna happen. In the public's mind Bruce Wayne is Batman. Us comics geeks would appreciate the idea of the mantle being passed on , but the general public would get turned off. Besides, any mantle switch over had been temporary in the comics too.

The only senario I could see that working in any context is Nightwing temporarily filling in upon older Bruce's death or disappearence and then a younger Bruce being cast upon his return to take back the mantle. 

If any recast takes place as fallout from Affleck's problems, it will likely be another similarly aged star like Brolin or perhaps John Hamm or someone similar at least for the short term ,then FLASHPOINT gives us a new younger Batman.

----------


## Frontier

> I would not be surprised if Batman does indeed get recast sooner rather than later. 
> 
> At one time Josh Brolin had been eyed for Batman before Affleck got the part. Depending on how things go, I wonder if WB may hire him even for maybe one movie or two to play the current older Bruce Wayne before using FLASHPOINT to recast a younger actor to play Batman?  Brolin is likely done as Thanos after  Avengers 4, and Cable may be a one off for Deadpool, so it's possible he might end up getting a call just in case.


I think Fox has long-term plans for Cable past _Deadpool 2_.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I think Fox has long-term plans for Cable past _Deadpool 2_.


And if they do recast, it needs to be a younger actor.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I still think recasting Bruce is just not going to work. Retcons don't work in films like that. The mainstream audience would have a hard time swallowing a different actor in the same universe. He's not a supporting character in a disguised and easily replicable getup like Dumbledore. I hope this gets addressed by Ben quickly. Either way I honestly don't think fans are going to object to seeing the movie wholesale because of this. All the same I have fears WB will recast him. But I so want him to stay.


There were three different actors playing Batman in the 90's and audiences were just fine.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I still think recasting Bruce is just not going to work. Retcons don't work in films like that. The mainstream audience would have a hard time swallowing a different actor in the same universe. He's not a supporting character in a disguised and easily replicable getup like Dumbledore. I hope this gets addressed by Ben quickly. Either way I honestly don't think fans are going to object to seeing the movie wholesale because of this. All the same I have fears WB will recast him. But I so want him to stay.


Audiences didn't seem to mind the sudden transformation of Edward Norton to Mark Ruffalo in the MCU, though as you do point out, Banner was reduced to supporting character after his solo (which seems to have fallen out by the wayside both in its universe and public consciousness) and he's not the half of the Hulk that audiences probably are itching to see.

----------


## Frontier

I am kind of curious to see how audiences would react if we get the sequence from Flashpoint where Barry gives Bruce Thomas's letter, but instead of Affleck it's the new DCEU Batman actor  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I still think recasting Bruce is just not going to work. Retcons don't work in films like that. The mainstream audience would have a hard time swallowing a different actor in the same universe. He's not a supporting character in a disguised and easily replicable getup like Dumbledore. I hope this gets addressed by Ben quickly. Either way I honestly don't think fans are going to object to seeing the movie wholesale because of this. All the same I have fears WB will recast him. But I so want him to stay.


I hope Ben Affleck gets to play Batman in a few solid Batman films, at the least.

I don't think some weirdo retcon recast would work at all. Just cast a different actor if you have to, it's as simple as that. The same Bruce Wayne, the same cast, the same storyline- just a different fella playing the part in a new film.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I am kind of curious to see how audiences would react if we get the sequence from Flashpoint where Barry gives Bruce Thomas's letter, but instead of Affleck it's the new DCEU Batman actor .


Probably, "Oh...this is something new/different," blissfully unaware that DC Comics readers have been seeing this stuff for decades.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Buried Alien

> There were three different actors playing Batman in the 90's and audiences were just fine.


It was kind of unclear if Keaton's, Kilmer's, and Clooney's Batmen were meant to be the same guy.  Kilmer's and Clooney's most likely were, considering that they had the same supporting casts and there were references in BATMAN AND ROBIN (ugh) to events from BATMAN FOREVER, but it's more of a stretch tying those back to Keaton's two movies.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Buried Alien

> I don't think that is gonna happen. In the public's mind Bruce Wayne is Batman. Us comics geeks would appreciate the idea of the mantle being passed on , but the general public would get turned off.


Maybe not.  Dick Grayson is almost as well-known to the general audience as Bruce Wayne, and I think the audience might be open to the idea of the mantle being passed on to a guy who has been waiting in the wings for decades.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Jokerz79

I think a recast would do fine a recast as part of a partial reboot like Flashpoint I think could be confusing to the general public.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It was kind of unclear if Keaton's, Kilmer's, and Clooney's Batmen were meant to be the same guy.  Kilmer's and Clooney's most likely were, considering that they had the same supporting casts and there were references in BATMAN AND ROBIN (ugh) to events from BATMAN FOREVER, but it's more of a stretch tying those back to Keaton's two movies.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I have to disagree with you (a rarity regarding you), BA. To me, all of the different actors from the Burtonverse were playing the same version of Bruce, just like all of the different Catwomen from the '66 show were one and the same.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I have to disagree with you (a rarity regarding you), BA. To me, all of the different actors from the Burtonverse were playing the same version of Bruce, just like all of the different Catwomen from the '66 show were one and the same.


I was never too sure about it...considering that the feel of BATMAN FOREVER and BATMAN AND ROBIN were so radically different from BATMAN (1989) and BATMAN RETURNS, and I think the only actor who appeared in all four films was Michael Gough as Alfred.  Moreover, Schumacher was so different from Burton in terms of how he directed the films that it was difficult to imagine them all being in one universe/timeline.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I was never too sure about it...considering that the feel of BATMAN FOREVER and BATMAN AND ROBIN were so radically different from BATMAN (1989) and BATMAN RETURNS, and I think the only actor who appeared in all four films was Michael Gough as Alfred.  Moreover, Schumacher was so different from Burton in terms of how he directed the films that it was difficult to imagine them all being in one universe/timeline.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I think the different directors is the key here, BA. I completely agree the first two films feel more different compared to the others (without a doubt regarding the last one). Still, I never doubted it was all the same universe. Just think of it the way Silver Age DC morphed into the Bronze Age.  :Smile:

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I was never too sure about it...considering that the feel of BATMAN FOREVER and BATMAN AND ROBIN were so radically different from BATMAN (1989) and BATMAN RETURNS, and I think the only actor who appeared in all four films was Michael Gough as Alfred.  Moreover, Schumacher was so different from Burton in terms of how he directed the films that it was difficult to imagine them all being in one universe/timeline.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Pat Hingle was also the Commish for all four 90s films.

Though I too never really considered Schumacher's vision in full continuity with Burton's, given the vastly different approaches they took to directing their films as well as the differing takes on Batman's characterization.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I think the different directors is the key here, BA. I completely agree the first two films feel more different compared to the others (without a doubt regarding the last one). Still, I never doubted it was all the same universe. Just think of it the way Silver Age DC morphed into the Bronze Age.


...except in reverse.  The Burton Batman started out all dark and gothy, and then, somehow lightened up WAY TOO MUCH later in the decade.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Good lord. Some of you get confused by movies as easily as Mac from Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Weren't sure it was supposed to be the same version of Bruce? WTF. So his butler and commissioner are exactly the same, his batmobiles only modify slightly from film to film, Wayne Manor and the bat cave are largely unchanged but since it went from Keaton to Kilmer to Clooney all bets were off on if it was the same franchise? Holy hell.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Audiences didn't seem to mind the sudden transformation of Edward Norton to Mark Ruffalo in the MCU, though as you do point out, Banner was reduced to supporting character after his solo (which seems to have fallen out by the wayside both in its universe and public consciousness) and he's not the half of the Hulk that audiences probably are itching to see.


Norton never appeared on screen with other actors, which is my main thing. The previous movie was totally inconsequential as far as audiences were concerned. Affleck will have appeared in 2 films alongside the two most important co-stars of the franchise. They have a chemistry, the audience believes they've developed a bond. It won't sit well to just replace him and pretend nothing happened. Mainstream audiences will be confused.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Good lord. Some of you get confused by movies as easily as Mac from Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Weren't sure it was supposed to be the same version of Bruce? WTF. So his butler and commissioner are exactly the same, his batmobiles only modify slightly from film to film, Wayne Manor and the bat cave are largely unchanged but since it went from Keaton to Kilmer to Clooney all bets were off on if it was the same franchise? Holy hell.


I actually had no idea they were supposed to be part of the same franchise. The supporting actors (aside from Alfred) don't connect, there were never references to previous adventures, villains never reappeared, love interests came and went, and the tone of the films were markedly distinct. Then again the idea of a franchise wasn't as solid as it is today. They were all Batman, the movies _could_, connect as different episodes in Bruce's life, but they could also stand alone as disconnected stories.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I actually had no idea they were supposed to be part of the same franchise. The supporting actors (aside from Alfred) don't connect, there were never references to previous adventures, villains never reappeared, love interests came and went, and the tone of the films were markedly distinct. Then again the idea of a franchise wasn't as solid as it is today. They were all Batman, the movies _could_, connect as different episodes in Bruce's life, but they could also stand alone as disconnected stories.


A somewhat similar problem occurs with the Donnerverse SUPERMAN movies.  SUPERMAN I, II, and RETURNS all appear to be of one continuity, but it's uncertain how III and IV fit into all of it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> A somewhat similar problem occurs with the Donnerverse SUPERMAN movies.  SUPERMAN I, II, and RETURNS all appear to be of one continuity, but it's uncertain how III and IV fit into all of it.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


They're not supposed to, 3 and 4 are retconned out for the purposes of Returns.

----------


## soccerguy951

> Maybe not.  Dick Grayson is almost as well-known to the general audience as Bruce Wayne, and I think the audience might be open to the idea of the mantle being passed on to a guy who has been waiting in the wings for decades.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Robin is just about as well known as Batman, but the name Dick Grayson isn't anywhere to as recognizable as Bruce Wayne. I don't think legacy works for movies. Too confusing, especially when actors are constantly recasted for these roles. Now if it were a tv show, that would make more sense.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Robin is just about as well known as Batman, but the name Dick Grayson isn't anywhere to as recognizable as Bruce Wayne. I don't think legacy works for movies. Too confusing, especially when actors are constantly recasted for these roles. Now if it were a tv show, that would make more sense.


Yet another reason why HBO would really be the best home for Batman.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> ...except in reverse.  The Burton Batman started out all dark and gothy, and then, somehow lightened up WAY TOO MUCH later in the decade.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Way too much is right, BA.  :EEK!:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Robin is just about as well known as Batman, but the name Dick Grayson isn't anywhere to as recognizable as Bruce Wayne..


Bruce's name is more well known, yes, but Dick Grayson is a fairly recognizable name to the average person.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Maybe not.  Dick Grayson is almost as well-known to the general audience as Bruce Wayne, and I think the audience might be open to the idea of the mantle being passed on to a guy who has been waiting in the wings for decades.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


You may be right, but then again the only two live action Dick Graysons have been Burt Ward and Chris O Donnell and we've yet to see a live action version that would be perceived as cool enough to wear the mantle of the Bat. Maybe if the Nightwing movie is a hit we could see a version of Dick people outside comics can get behind, but that'll take a lot of exposure and establishing him in his own right.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I would hate this. That means we'd finally have a connected film universe without Bruce Wayne? No. I want Nightwing AND Batman. Just recast the thing with a younger Bruce Wayne whose timeline gets fused with the prime timeline in Flashpoint. Problem solved.


Almost but with one MAJOR problem.

What to do about future JL films? I'd certainly like to think there will be more of them. But now we have a continuity where the JL wasn't formed until Batman was near retirement age. Just the Affleck casting means they won't be able to follow up JL with a sequel without rebooting the Batman character and that really stinks.

I agree it would be horrible to replace Bruce Wayne as Batman for the entirety of the DC film slate but I think they really do need to replace Affleck based solely on his age (leaving out other issues). How they do that and keep a Bruce Wayne/Batman in the JL after the character formed the group at the end of his career will require a reboot as soon as this one hits cinemas.

And I HIGHLY doubt Affleck is Batman in the solo film. I think we get someone younger and then they take over the cape and cowl in JL. It won't make any sense though for reasons above. So many errors in planning. NEVER should have had an end-of-career Batman in a brand new DC film universe. And what did we get in exchange? A guy that looks GREAT in the suit and that's about it.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Is 45 years old really THAT old?? Ben Affleck isn't 75, he can make a few solid Batman flicks. 

Largely the biggest problem is that BvS was a huge mistake and having Bruce come out of retirement or whatever to gangland murder Superman, is not going to age well. I think that should be ignored, going forward. It's a mistake for this whole, universe, of films to hang their hat on BvS. I'm hoping with the success of Wonder Woman, the flicks will start to feel diverse and different tonally and conceptually.

Batman can be recast if the need arises, without jumping through continuity mumbo jumbo. Matt Reeves can make his series of Batman flicks feel cohesive and true, he's a good director and I have faith that he can move these into a new direction (I believe Ben Affleck could have too, but I can't blame him for getting nervous after BvS).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Is 45 years old really THAT old??


As someone 7 years older than that... hell, no!  :Big Grin: 




> Largely the biggest problem is that BvS was a huge mistake and having Bruce come out of retirement or whatever to gangland murder Superman, is not going to age well. I think that should be ignored, going forward. It's a mistake for this whole, universe, of films to hang their hat on Zack Synder's stuff. I'm hoping with the success of Wonder Woman, the flicks will start to feel diverse and different tonally and conceptually.


Actually, I would bet money that the films will be received better critically as the years roll along.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Is 45 years old really THAT old?? Ben Affleck isn't 75, he can make a few solid Batman flicks. 
> 
> Largely the biggest problem is that BvS was a huge mistake and having Bruce come out of retirement or whatever to gangland murder Superman, is not going to age well. I think that should be ignored, going forward. It's a mistake for this whole, universe, of films to hang their hat on BvS. I'm hoping with the success of Wonder Woman, the flicks will start to feel diverse and different tonally and conceptually.
> 
> Batman can be recast if the need arises, without jumping through continuity mumbo jumbo. Matt Reeves can make his series of Batman flicks feel cohesive and true, he's a good director and I have faith that he can move these into a new direction (I believe Ben Affleck could have too, but I can't blame him for getting nervous after BvS).


The age thing is especially dumb since CGI and costumes can be easily used to compensate for advanced aging. Why Hollywood insists that a guy get absurdly buff for a costume when he'll never bloody use it instead of a stunt double continues to baffle me. 




> I am kind of curious to see how audiences would react if we get the sequence from Flashpoint where Barry gives Bruce Thomas's letter, but instead of Affleck it's the new DCEU Batman actor .


General audiences get first hand experience of a stapple of DC Comics: butt fucking stupid cosmic retcons. I know some people jest about this happening but the superhero genre is already marching towards creative oblivion by copying comics "death means nothing at all" approach. Introducing cosmic retcon idiocy has all the appeal of a snuff film for me.

----------


## Agent Z

> Is 45 years old really THAT old?? Ben Affleck isn't 75, he can make a few solid Batman flicks. 
> 
> Largely the biggest problem is that BvS was a huge mistake and having Bruce come out of retirement or whatever to gangland murder Superman, is not going to age well. I think that should be ignored, going forward. It's a mistake for this whole, universe, of films to hang their hat on BvS. I'm hoping with the success of Wonder Woman, the flicks will start to feel diverse and different tonally and conceptually.
> 
> Batman can be recast if the need arises, without jumping through continuity mumbo jumbo. Matt Reeves can make his series of Batman flicks feel cohesive and true, he's a good director and I have faith that he can move these into a new direction (I believe Ben Affleck could have too, but I can't blame him for getting nervous after BvS).


If people can get over Thor almost murdering Steve and Tony in the first Avengers movie I think Batman will get some slack especially since unlike Thor he had the excuse of being manipulated

----------


## Clark_Kent

I really don’t think they will boot Affleck. He touched a boob, he didn’t rape anybody. He didn’t force intercourse on anybody. He touched a boob. Inappropriate as all hell, but certainly not in the same league as Weinstein. He should keep his hands to himself, but “sexual predator”? C’mon. 

Also, the woman from the second video (sitting on his lap) has already said the vid is out of context. I think Affleck should be held accountable for not speaking up about Harvey (he had to have known), and people should be mad at him for that. I think the breast tweak is overblown. Bad, obviously, but not as bad as some are making it.

----------


## Frontier

> If people can get over Thor almost murdering Steve and Tony in the first Avengers movie I think Batman will get some slack especially since unlike Thor he had the excuse of being manipulated


...I don't think Thor went out of his way to kill Steve and Tony. 

For Bruce it seemed like his whole mission was becoming about killing Superman.

----------


## ekrolo2

> ...I don't think Thor went out of his way to kill Steve and Tony. 
> 
> For Bruce it seemed like his whole mission was becoming about killing Superman.


Steve would have definitely died if he didn't have the shield which Thor was not aware of when he attacked him with Mjolnir. Hell, he didn't even know shooting lightning at Tony would super charge his suit instead of what lightning usually does: kill people.

I'm pretty sure Whedon even commented on this fight, citing something along the lines of the studio twisting his arm to include a mandatory hero vs hero fight that he couldn't make organically happen.

----------


## Frontier

> Steve would have definitely died if he didn't have the shield which Thor was not aware of when he attacked him with Mjolnir. Hell, he didn't even know shooting lightning at Tony would super charge his suit instead of what lightning usually does: kill people.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Whedon even commented on this fight, citing something along the lines of the studio twisting his arm to include a mandatory hero vs hero fight that he couldn't make organically happen.


I guess it just goes to show how much tone and style can change one's perception, since I just never felt Thor was trying to kill them anymore then whenever Superheroes usually tussle over a misunderstanding, while Bruce seemed doggedly and single-mindedly driven to kill Superman.

----------


## ekrolo2

> I guess it just goes to show how much tone and style can change one's perception, since I just never felt Thor was trying to kill them anymore then whenever Superheroes usually tussle over a misunderstanding, while Bruce seemed doggedly and single-mindedly driven to kill Superman.


The MCU typically gets away with things like this all the time because of it's tone. There's a similar thing where Cap knocks a big ass metal canister hanging over Spider-Man that probably would've squashed him outright if he hadn't caught it which was a total crap shoot if he could do. But because Cap and Spidey are snarking you into an early grave, you don't notice that Cap almost kills Spider-Man.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I really don’t think they will boot Affleck. He touched a boob, he didn’t rape anybody. He didn’t force intercourse on anybody. He touched a boob. Inappropriate as all hell, but certainly not in the same league as Weinstein. He should keep his hands to himself, but “sexual predator”? C’mon. 
> 
> Also, the woman from the second video (sitting on his lap) has already said the vid is out of context. I think Affleck should be held accountable for not speaking up about Harvey (he had to have known), and people should be mad at him for that. I think the breast tweak is overblown. Bad, obviously, but not as bad as some are making it.


I think him not speaking out against Weinstein is the main issue here and may become problematic in the long run, but the ball is in Ben's PR people's court.

My preference is that  Ben stays as Batman for as long as he wants to. I like him in the role, and barring any evidence of any Weinstein level behavior, he shouldn't be fired. At worst he's a douche who needs to keep his hands to himself, but that doesn't make him a criminal. I'd love to see him as Bruce for at least the Nightwing film, the Matt Reeves solo film and a JL sequel before he hands the role over.

Keep in mind though, counting his pretty prominent cameo in Suicide Squad, he's been Batman for three films already by the time JL is wrapped and released. That effectively ties him with Christian Bale and trumps Keaton, Kilmer and Clooney. If he wants to move on after JL or The Batman, I wouldn't be surprised.

----------


## Frontier

> The MCU typically gets away with things like this all the time because of it's tone. There's a similar thing where Cap knocks a big ass metal canister hanging over Spider-Man that probably would've squashed him outright if he hadn't caught it which was a total crap shoot if he could do. But because Cap and Spidey are snarking you into an early grave, you don't notice that Cap almost kills Spider-Man.


Kinda like the comics when you think about it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I guess it just goes to show how much tone and style can change one's perception,


It's why Clark in _Superman II_ can get away with his handling of the Phantom Zoners at the end of the film. We all know they didn't fall down a water slide unharmed, but since the scene is light, we forgive it's Looney Toon-like violence.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Kinda like the comics when you think about it .


A startling series of similarities I'm getting less and less enthused about :P

----------


## Sodam Yat

Unbelievable. When it was first announced Ben Affleck was going to play the Batman, many people didn't like it and voted against it. Well WB should've listened to those people. I blame most of this on WB. They shouldn't have gave the role to this guy. It's certainly a good thing that Flashpoint is going to happen. Hopefully Flashpoint will make the impact enough to get rid of this creep as if he never existed in the DCEU.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Unbelievable. When it was first announced Ben Affleck was going to play the Batman, many people didn't like it and voted against it. Well WB should've listened to those people.


Those people's reasoning was actually wrong, since he turned out to be a fine Batman and Bruce. If they were ripping Afleck for his personal foibles, then that would be a different story.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Those people's reasoning was actually wrong, since he turned out to be a fine Batman and Bruce. If they were ripping Afleck for his personal foibles, then that would be a different story.


Although I don't care much for Ben Affleck as Batman, I don't think he's a terrible one. I agree their reasoning is wrong, if it's more about the fitted role, than his personal mistakes of course. But either way this looks really bad and could possibly hurt the JL movie and other upcoming ones.

I actually had no idea that Ben Affleck did those things in the past.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Although I don't care much for Ben Affleck as Batman, I don't think he's a terrible one. I agree their reasoning is wrong, if it's more about the fitted role, than his personal mistakes of course. But either way this looks really bad and could possibly hurt the JL movie and other upcoming ones.
> 
> I actually had no idea that Ben Affleck did those things in the past.


Unfortunately, I'm cynical enough to think none of them are above it, since we really don't know any of them in real life.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Affleck always had the potential to be a PR nightmare, though at the time he was first cast it wouldn't have been easy to foresee the risk. Granted it was a controversial decision and the backlash he received from the more overzealous internet crowd was appalling, but it was such an out of left field choice and he was on a career high at the time, that I can see why the risk was appealing. But in light of the divorce, cheating allegations, personal addiction problems* and now this, it's cast a whole cloud over the Batman stuff and the DCEU in general. It's for the best for the property, and the man himself, to distance himself from the spotlight.

*This stuff was just unfortunate and not really something that would be any of our business if our culture wasn't as media obsessed as it is, but it still had a negative impact on the DCEU. These latest allegations, if there is much truth to them, *are* on him though. Focusing only on the DCEU side (because the alleged victims should receive the most consideration otherwise), this is really unfair to Cavill, Gadot, Whedon, Snyder and the rest for the hard work they put into the film because of the possibility of this crap overshadowing it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

*Double post

----------


## Johnny

With all this crap we've been hearing lately, I certainly hope no scumbag studio executive ever tried to put their hands on Gal.

----------


## Jokerz79

> With all this crap we've been hearing lately, I certainly hope no scumbag studio executive ever tried to put their hands on Gal.


Gal's an ex soldier I hope if any ever tried she broke their arm.

----------


## Thomas Crown

First Affleck and now Jason Momoa. But, of course, we must believe that the timing of these controversies is purely "coincidental". YEAH, RIGHT! Don't be surprised if they restart that "Gal Gadot is a zionist murderer" crap again or dig up some stupid thing that Ezra and Ray said or did years ago.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> First Affleck and now Jason Momoa. But, of course, we must believe that the timing of these controversies is purely "coincidental". YEAH, RIGHT! Don't be surprised if they restart that "Gal Gadot is a zionist murderer" crap again or dig up some stupid thing that Ezra and Ray said or did years ago.


What's this about Momoa????

----------


## Johnny

> Gal's an ex soldier I hope if any ever tried she broke their arm.


Guess I should've added "for their sake".  :Stick Out Tongue:  But you get the point, who the hell do these freaks think they are? Is this the type of person anyone can turn into if they become successful? How can anyone claim to support women's rights and participate in all these humanitarian causes for decades, all the while doing shit like this? Obviously it should come as no surprise given the industry's history, but still boggles my mind how anyone like that can look at themselves in the mirror every day.

----------


## Johnny

> What's this about Momoa????


He joked at some GoT panel from a while ago that he enjoyed raping beautiful women on Game of Thrones. He apologized soon after. It was a dumb attempt at humor, wasn't really a big deal.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> What's this about Momoa????


It was a stupid rape joke about his role on _GoT_.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> What's this about Momoa????


He made a stupid joke about rape in a GOT panel at some con. In 2011. He apologized right after that, but someone dig up a video of the panel and now some people are acting self-righteous and campaigning for a boycott against "Justice League".

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> First Affleck and now Jason Momoa. But, of course, we must believe that the timing of these controversies is purely "coincidental". YEAH, RIGHT! Don't be surprised if they restart that "Gal Gadot is a zionist murderer" crap again or dig up some stupid thing that Ezra and Ray said or did years ago.


Somebody is worried about _Justice League_ doing very well, it would appear.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I just googled the Momoa thing. Stupid but overblown. Unfortunately the "Man of Muhrdurrrrrr" anti-DCEU brigade are gonna eat this up.
I feel bad for Henry, Gal and the rest. It's unfair that Ben's stupid behavior is gonna cast at least a small pall over the release of this movie.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Unbelievable. When it was first announced Ben Affleck was going to play the Batman, many people didn't like it and voted against it. Well WB should've listened to those people. I blame most of this on WB. They shouldn't have gave the role to this guy. It's certainly a good thing that Flashpoint is going to happen. Hopefully Flashpoint will make the impact enough to get rid of this creep as if he never existed in the DCEU.


He's a great Batman and better Bruce Wayne, so I say leave him be.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> He joked at some GoT panel from a while ago that he enjoyed raping beautiful women on Game of Thrones. He apologized soon after. It was a dumb attempt at humor, wasn't really a big deal.


Yeah, it wasn't a (showing my age here) Tex Antoine moment  - he was NYC's most popular weatherman 40 years ago until he made a rape joke after a news story about the rape of a child ("With rape so predominant in the news lately, it is well to remember the words of Confucius: 'If rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.'") What Momoa said was dumb, but not a career killer or, IMO, worth a boycott over.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

Disney owns 1/3 mainstream media. They are going to burn the movie down.

----------


## Jokerz79

Affleck is bothersome and if he's replaced as Batman then good riddance at this point IMO.  Now I do think the Affleck situation can have some negative effect on the film but in the end I believe Justice League will still be a hit just will it be as big as the Studio was hoping a few days ago is the question. As for Momoa it was a stupid bad joke he made years ago and apologized back then and I don't think it will effect anything the people getting upset by this are people who probably were never going to see Justice League anyways they were Anti DCEU and jumping on it or professional outragers who would had found something to complain about.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> He joked at some GoT panel from a while ago that he enjoyed raping beautiful women on Game of Thrones. He apologized soon after. It was a dumb attempt at humor, wasn't really a big deal.


If he was talking about his character in GOT. . . .
Jeezus!  Some of these SJWs need to get a grip!

Are they gonna go after Josh Brolin for beating up Diane Lane years ago?
Are they gonna boycott Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie who continued to work with Harvey Weinstein even after what he did?

You can't lump every man into the Weinstein box.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

People petty as hell. Always want to dig up info on someone. Ben always had controversy so that's out my hands but Mamoa made one stupid joke now everyone want dig up on him. Samething happened with Gal Gadot when Wonder Woman was about to come out.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Anyway, stuff for the Aquaman movie

Screenshot_2017-10-12-19-24-04.jpg
IMG_20171012_192353.jpg

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Now I do think the Affleck situation can have some negative effect on the film but in the end I believe Justice League will still be a hit just will it be as big as the Studio was hoping a few days ago is the question. As for Momoa it was a stupid bad joke he made years ago and apologized back then and I don't think it will effect anything the people getting upset by this are people who probably were never going to see Justice League anyways they were Anti DCEU and jumping on it or professional outragers who would had found something to complain about.


I agree with all of this.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> The MCU typically gets away with things like this all the time because of it's tone. There's a similar thing where Cap knocks a big ass metal canister hanging over Spider-Man that probably would've squashed him outright if he hadn't caught it which was a total crap shoot if he could do. But because Cap and Spidey are snarking you into an early grave, you don't notice that Cap almost kills Spider-Man.


Let's not forget that Cap rockets a shield at the heads and bodies of normal people.  How man cracked skulls and collapsed organs is he responsible for.  Heck, I think he even decapitated a guy in Winter Soldier.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Mamoa's comment was stupid, but given the context of who his character was, it's not a big deal. Especially as it's just a joke (albeit one in poor taste, but I'm not gonna pretend I don't have a crude sense of humor when I'm with my buddies either). 




> He made a stupid joke about rape in a GOT panel at some con. In 2011. He apologized right after that, but someone dig up a video of the panel and now some people are acting self-righteous and campaigning for a boycott against "Justice League".


The Affleck stuff is entirely due to his connection to Weinstein and not keeping his mouth shut on Twitter about it, revealing some hypocrisy on his part. The fact that JL is around the corner is a really unfortunate coincidence because the universe just doesn't seem to want this damn thing to be released with no problems, but it is what it is.

Mamoa getting dragged into things is a bit suspect though, I agree.




> Are they gonna go after Josh Brolin for beating up Diane Lane years ago?


I forgot about this, and he's over at Marvel.

I think that might actually be worse than what Affleck has been accused of (thus far).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I forgot about this, and he's over at Marvel.
> 
> I think that might actually be worse than what Affleck has been accused of (thus far).


I would say beating up a woman fairly easily trumps groping.

----------


## dianafan1985

Its never funny to trivialize or joke about the topic of rape. Especially since so many lives are destroyed over such a heinous action. Rape should never be joked about, period.

Affleck should have kept his hypocritical mouth shut; whatever prompted him to speak indicates that there was more going on behind the scenes. Its a pity he is the best batman I have ever seen because now it seems inevitable that he will at some point get recasted as the dark knight. For the JLA movie, in my opinion, it is really too late to recast him.

----------


## Ascended

> He made a stupid joke about rape in a GOT panel at some con. In 2011. He apologized right after that, but someone dig up a video of the panel and now some people are acting self-righteous and campaigning for a boycott against "Justice League".


You'll notice that no one is talking about the stuff he did on the GoT set to put his co-stars at ease, either.

Apparently during the sex scenes he filmed with.....crap, the chick who plays Daenaris (spelling?) she was really uncomfortable with the whole thing (understandable) so Mamoa came out wearing a sock on his.....method acting. Made everyone laugh and made filming the scenes easier for all involved. 

He seems like a good guy. Who gives a damn if he made a bad joke?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Its never funny to trivialize or joke about the topic of rape. Especially since so many lives are destroyed over such a heinous action. Rape should never be joked about, period.
> 
> Affleck should have kept his hypocritical mouth shut; whatever prompted him to speak indicates that there was more going on behind the scenes. Its a pity he is the best batman I have ever seen because now it seems inevitable that he will at some point get recasted as the dark knight. For the JLA movie, in my opinion, it is really too late to recast him.


Well yeah they're a month away from release of course it's too late to recast for Justice League. No matter how much they could potentially lose of this it would never be as much as scrapping the whole movie. Momoa made a bad stupid joke and he apologized then and I disagree about joking about rape simply because I believe anything can be joked about it's context. We make jokes all the time of Killers, Rapist, and Molesters getting raped in prison it gets a laugh because of context of the person being a scumbag getting their comeuppance.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> You'll notice that no one is talking about the stuff he did on the GoT set to put his co-stars at ease, either.
> 
> Apparently during the sex scenes he filmed with.....crap, the chick who plays Daenaris (spelling?) she was really uncomfortable with the whole thing (understandable) so Mamoa came out wearing a sock on his.....method acting. Made everyone laugh and made filming the scenes easier for all involved. 
> 
> He seems like a good guy. Who gives a damn if he made a bad joke?


Don't leave out the best part of the story, man! The sock wasn't just any old sock. It was all fluffy.....and PINK!  :Smile:  

Yeah, Momoa is clearly a guy who prefers to make women laugh and set them at ease. He made a very stupid faux pas and unlike Affleck, he apologized for his mistake immediately.

----------


## Thomas Crown

Jason used his instagram to apologize for that joke. AGAIN.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaKqDCfnARp/

----------


## Flash Gordon

> If people can get over Thor almost murdering Steve and Tony in the first Avengers movie I think Batman will get some slack especially since unlike Thor he had the excuse of being manipulated


Thor didn't try and murder anybody.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Thor didn't try and murder anybody.


He swung his mountain-splitting hammer at a man whom he had no reason at all to believe should be able to survive it. He knew he was on Midgard. He knows how strong (or not-strong) humans are. He knows how not-strong our metals tend to be. He had no reason in the world to think Cap could possibly survive that hit. 

He also fired a lightning bolt at Stark. Same thing. He had no reason at all to believe that Stark would be able to withstand that attack. The fact that Stark is enough of a genius to develop a suit that can actually EAT lightning strikes is irrelevant. Thor didn't know that at the time.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> He's a great Batman and better Bruce Wayne, so I say leave him be.


I rewatched the ACCOUNTANT (loved it) and oh man Ben Affleck could be so fantastic in a solo Batman film. I don't get the criticisms about his age, Bruce Wayne would be a guy in his 40s- at least in my mind.

----------


## nightrider

> Their connection to Weinstein is famously linked to Good Will Hunting. Weinstein helped launch them both, and they were both very close with him.


I meant what has the actions of his best bud got to do with him? This is slightly ridiculous actually.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> He swung his mountain-splitting hammer at a man whom he had no reason at all to believe should be able to survive it. He knew he was on Midgard. He knows how strong (or not-strong) humans are. He knows how not-strong our metals tend to be. He had no reason in the world to think Cap could possibly survive that hit. 
> 
> He also fired a lightning bolt at Stark. Same thing. He had no reason at all to believe that Stark would be able to withstand that attack. The fact that Stark is enough of a genius to develop a suit that can actually EAT lightning strikes is irrelevant. Thor didn't know that at the time.


Eh, he wasn't trying to murder them. It was a battle. Cap and Stark don't look like your casual civilians out for lunch on a Tuesday.

----------


## Ascended

> Don't leave out the best part of the story, man! The sock wasn't just any old sock. It was all fluffy.....and PINK!  
> 
> Yeah, Momoa is clearly a guy who prefers to make women laugh and set them at ease. He made a very stupid faux pas and unlike Affleck, he apologized for his mistake immediately.


My gods, I forgot about the pink part!! 

Dude, Mamoa is amazing.  :Smile:

----------


## Jokerz79

> Eh, he wasn't trying to murder them. It was a battle. Cap and Stark don't look like your casual civilians out for lunch on a Tuesday.


Like to point out Tony flew in and knocked Thor an Asgardian across the forest first and Captain America hit Thor in the head with his shield first both men proved they could handle a fight with an Asgardian before he threw a punch. Oh and they captured Loki.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Eh, he wasn't trying to murder them. It was a battle. Cap and Stark don't look like your casual civilians out for lunch on a Tuesday.


They also don't, from Thor's experience, look like the kind of guys who can survive his very best offensive weapons. Don't forget that Thor has fairly extensive experience with the people of Midgard. He has NEVER seen them field ANYTHING that could reasonably threaten an Asgardian. He had no reason to think they could survive what he was throwing their way. 

Now, I will admit that this argument still doesn't actually help Batman in BvS because even if you accept that Thor DID try to kill Cap and Stark in that fight, that's not the same thing as what Batman did. If Thor HAD killed Stark and Cap, it would've been a heat-of-battle kind of thing. Murder Two, at worst. Batman? That was First-Degree, fully pre-meditated murder he was planning to do against Superman. He spent a lot of time studying him, learning what could hurt him, and then he concocted elaborate traps and weapons designed specifically to exploit his weaknesses and give him the best possible chance at rendering Superman helpless. Heck, even when he had Superman beaten and helpless, he even couldn't resist dragging him around by his leg, throwing him around the room, and then cutting his face just to prove he could. As helpless as Superman was by that point, that pretty much qualified as torturing him before finishing him off.

----------


## Styles



----------


## dianafan1985

> Well yeah they're a month away from release of course it's too late to recast for Justice League. No matter how much they could potentially lose of this it would never be as much as scrapping the whole movie. Momoa made a bad stupid joke and he apologized then and I disagree about joking about rape simply because I believe anything can be joked about it's context. We make jokes all the time of Killers, Rapist, and Molesters getting raped in prison it gets a laugh because of context of the person being a scumbag getting their comeuppance.


We? Who the heck is we? If you think it is right to make light of a topic such as rape, then it is no wonder why SOME people think it is ok, and not a huge deal, to violate another person's right in the most despicable way.  Attitudes like that empowered people like Ben Affleck and Harvey Weinstein. It is far from just a bad stupid joke; IT IS NEVER ok to joke about raping another woman (or even a man).  If one can trivialize such a thing, then it indicates that one is capable of performing the same deeds to an innocent unsuspecting person as well. And to humour your point, the women in Momoa's context, were not (portrayed as) rapists killers and molesters.

In my opinion, a joke like that has no place in society, and as an educated person, I have zero privilege or ignorance to ever see the topic of rape as a joke.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Mamoa's comment was stupid, but given the context of who his character was, it's not a big deal. Especially as it's just a joke (albeit one in poor taste, but I'm not gonna pretend I don't have a crude sense of humor when I'm with my buddies either). 
> 
> 
> 
> The Affleck stuff is entirely due to his connection to Weinstein and not keeping his mouth shut on Twitter about it, revealing some hypocrisy on his part. The fact that JL is around the corner is a really unfortunate coincidence because the universe just doesn't seem to want this damn thing to be released with no problems, but it is what it is.
> 
> Mamoa getting dragged into things is a bit suspect though, I agree.
> 
> 
> ...


You _think_? Are you actually having a hard time figuring out whether beating up a woman is better or worse than touching a breast?

----------


## Robotman

> 


Pretty cool! I wonder who the fish people are.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> You _think_? Are you actually having a hard time figuring out whether beating up a woman is better or worse than touching a breast?


Ugh, yeah that sentence of mine really sucks. Could have been worded way better. Darknight Detective responded correctly, that easily trumps any of this stuff with Affleck. 

But the alleged groping shouldn't be dismissed either just because there are people doing worse things, like Brolin or Weinstein. Especially as such behavior can be an indicator that he may be capable of going even further, though we thankfully haven't gotten any stories like that yet.

----------


## Jokerz79

> We? Who the heck is we? If you think it is right to make light of a topic such as rape, then it is no wonder why SOME people think it is ok, and not a huge deal, to violate another person's right in the most despicable way.  Attitudes like that empowered people like Ben Affleck and Harvey Weinstein. It is far from just a bad stupid joke; IT IS NEVER ok to joke about raping another woman (or even a man).  If one can trivialize such a thing, then it indicates that one is capable of performing the same deeds to an innocent unsuspecting person as well. And to humour your point, the women in Momoa's context, were not (portrayed as) rapists killers and molesters.
> 
> In my opinion, a joke like that has no place in society, and as an educated person, I have zero privilege or ignorance to ever see the topic of rape as a joke.


We as in society because it is done quite often in culture and fiction. I'm educated too and as educated person I believe people should choose for themselves what is appropriate and let society judge it. Dedicating what is appropriate in society with humor and language is just elitist fascism and imposing another ones privilege on others.

----------


## Ascended

> In my opinion, a joke like that has no place in society, and as an educated person, I have zero privilege or ignorance to ever see the topic of rape as a joke.


Are the boundaries of comedy really where this topic is supposed to go? 

Also, as an educated person, I dislike seeing someone's subjective opinion presented as an absolute fact that everyone else has to adhere to whether they're willing or not. No one gets to rape my sense of humor.  :Wink:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Ugh, yeah that sentence of mine really sucks. Could have been worded way better. Darknight Detective responded correctly, that easily trumps any of this stuff with Affleck. 
> 
> But the alleged groping shouldn't be dismissed either just because there are people doing worse things, like Brolin or Weinstein. Especially as such behavior can be an indicator that he may be capable of going even further, though we thankfully haven't gotten any stories like that yet.


I agree it shouldnt be dismissed, I just see a lot of people here & elsewhere lumping Affleck into the same category as Weinstein, and I dont think thats at all fair. Not only to Affleck, but to the women forced by Weinstein to do terrible things for work. Burton having a man touch her breast is nowhere near the same boat as the who-knows-how-many women Weinstein dealt with over decades. It devalues their stories to even suggest the two things are in the same ballpark. 

Im not saying you are doing this, just speaking in general.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Ocean Master's helmet looks cool, and even cooler to see Atlanna prominently in production art (looks like Reis or Fabok)  :Cool: .

I'm guessing by the fish people that we might see some different races of Atlanteans...

----------


## Ascended

Or the Trench......

----------


## Black_Adam

That stupid insensitive joke Jason made he already apologised for 6 years ago, are we going to revisit every single celebs scummy moments now? The fact it got bought up when WB are currently giving his character a big marketing push with Aquaman week makes the timing even more questionable.

----------


## Agent Z

> Eh, he wasn't trying to murder them. It was a battle. Cap and Stark don't look like your casual civilians out for lunch on a Tuesday.


People tend to die in battles last I checked.

----------


## mace11

Anybody seen this?
Sometimes i watch thier videos when new trailers come out and sometimes other stuff.
JUSTICE LEAGUE FINAL NYCC TRAILER REACTION - Double Toasted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLybDxL0Hqk

----------


## Dominick1216

On the Affleck situation, I've became a huge fan and supporter of his after watching BVS, but after all this... He doesn't deserve to be part of this franchise. You have to remember, little kids look up to these people, they view them as their heroes... you shouldn't have a man who's sexually harassed women playing a hero kids look up to. Will this affect Justice League at the box office? Probably not. But I do think it will affect Ben Affleck's portrayal of Bruce Wayne/Batman. Don't tell me you're not gonna be sitting in the theater watching the movie and when Affleck pops up you won't be thinking of all this recent news... The entire general audience probably will.

I won't be surprised once Justice League has been out for a while that we get a statement that either WB has fired Affleck, or he decided to step down. He deserves to face consequences for doing those things.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> On the Affleck situation, I've became a huge fan and supporter of his after watching BVS, but after all this... He doesn't deserve to be part of this franchise. You have to remember, little kids look up to these people, they view them as their heroes... you shouldn't have a man who's sexually harassed women playing a hero kids look up to. Will this affect Justice League at the box office? Probably not. But I do think it will affect Ben Affleck's portrayal of Bruce Wayne/Batman. Don't tell me you're not gonna be sitting in the theater watching the movie and when Affleck pops up you won't be thinking of all this recent news... The entire general audience probably will.
> 
> I won't be surprised once Justice League has been out for a while that we get a statement that either WB has fired Affleck, or he decided to step down. He deserves to face consequences for doing those things.


I don’t think the general audience will care, tbh. People still enjoy Roman Polanski & Woody Allen films, after all (molestation of a minor & hooking up with an adopted daughter, respectfully). Internet people will care & argue it, but I think the general audience will be fine. I know that when I, personally, am sitting in the theater the last thing on my mind will be that time he touched a boob 14 years ago. I’ll be too focused on seeing my favorite characters all together and waiting for Superman’s triumphant return. Different strokes though, of course.

If the people online put up enough of a stink, though, I agree that a Batman solo with him could be in doubt. Which is a shame, in my opinion. There’s reason to believe Affleck of today is not the same man as Affleck of yesterday (exorcising his demons through therapy & rehab over the last year), and he has a right to work, if they’ll allow him. We lost the best pure actor in Hollywood in Mel Gibson once upon a time because people were unable to seperate the man from the art; I’d hate to lose the best Batman due to a boob. RDJ once had such a terrible drug habit that he landed in prison, and now is one of the highest paid actors portraying a superhero & nobody cares. Brolin beat Lane, and nobody cares. Athletes do terrible things all the time, and people continue to buy jerseys and go to games (unless they’re kneeling)...I guess what I’m saying is, Affleck should keep his hands to himself, and meaningfully apologize, but I’m not sure his specific case deserves the pitchfork hate, or the labels of “predator”. Save that for the Weinsteins of the world, who truly deeply deserve it. And again, I’m not calling out anyone here; just speaking in general. 

To the poster who mentioned bad timing in regards to Momoa, I agree. I think most can admit that it’s at the least pretty interesting how things continue to come out riiiight before each DC film. Affleck’s divorce & rehab right before BvS, the cast hating Leto right before SS, WW film being a “mess”, and now reports of sexual harassment from Affleck & the resurfacing of an old dead story of a rape joke a month before JL. Some things are true, some aren’t/weren’t, but the timing is interesting (no conspiracy theory here, just commenting). For example, people piling on Affleck now instead of during the Oscar race for Argo. Sometimes I wonder if DC is cursed lol

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

I guess Ben will not going to promote the movie with Gal and the others.

Gal Gadot on her twitter/insta...



https://twitter.com/GalGadot/status/918843263037014016

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaMPWHEg...n-by=gal_gadot

----------


## Frontier

> I guess Ben will not going to promote the movie with Gal and the others.
> 
> Gal Gadot on her twitter/insta...
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/GalGadot/status/918843263037014016
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BaMPWHEg...n-by=gal_gadot


I was wondering how Gal would react to this...and not surprised, though I'm curious how this will effect her relationship with Affleck.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I was wondering how Gal would react to this...and not surprised, though I'm curious how this will effect her relationship with Affleck.


Yeah me too. Her message was praising women rather than shaming the accused men and didn't target anyone specifically, maybe she was trying to make sure the rest of the cast wasn't tacitly approving Ben's behavior by staying silent.

Now I hope this doesn't somehow bring up the Zionist baggage she has as well. That would be the icing on the cake here.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Yeah me too. Her message was praising women rather than shaming the accused men and didn't target anyone specifically, maybe she was trying to make sure the rest of the cast wasn't tacitly approving Ben's behavior by staying silent.
> 
> Now I hope this doesn't somehow bring up the Zionist baggage she has as well. That would be the icing on the cake here.


People always try to bring up her Zionist comments yet it never works. Wonder Woman still made bank and slot of people like her.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> People always try to bring up her Zionist comments yet it never works. Wonder Woman still made bank and slot of people like her.


Yeah, that was never going to be anything but it was -  a dud.

----------


## Johnny

> People always try to bring up her Zionist comments yet it never works. Wonder Woman still made bank and slot of people like her.


The same way JL would make tons of money as long as its good. Affleck is already acclaimed as Batman so his issues wouldn't do anything to the movie's BO performance. It just needs to be a crowd pleaser.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The same way JL would make tons of money as long as its good. Affleck is already acclaimed as Batman so his issues wouldn't do anything to the movie's BO performance. It just needs to be a crowd pleaser.


To really derail a film, the charge would have to be so big that the average person would be embarrassed to be seen going to watch it (i.e. a lead actor was found out to be a pedophile). What we have now is not anywhere near that level.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'm glad Gadot spoke out. I mean it's the right thing to do anyway, but I think more so considering the character she's playing and what that character represents, and being a role model to young girls especially. She pretty much had to, people would be dying to know her thoughts no matter what. Pressure would be on her more than any of the others (and maybe Amy Adams might get some of that too). And I think she did it very gracefully. She denounced the behavior without signaling out Affleck in particular. Whatever her feelings may be for him, it's an industry wide issue and he shouldn't be the only one raked over the coals, and she's not bad-mouthing her costar in the months leading to the film's release.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm glad Gadot spoke out. I mean it's the right thing to do anyway, but I think more so considering the character she's playing and what that character represents, and being a role model to young girls especially. She pretty much had to, people would be dying to know her thoughts no matter what. Pressure would be on her more than any of the others (and maybe Amy Adams might get some of that too). And I think she did it very gracefully. She denounced the behavior without signaling out Affleck in particular. Whatever her feelings may be for him, it's an industry wide issue and he shouldn't be the only one raked over the coals, and she's not bad-mouthing her costar in the months leading to the film's release.


I agree.

As "Wonder Woman" there's a certain expectation on her to speak out on issues like this, and I think she handled it perfectly. She denounced the actions of the victimizers and praised the courage of the victims. She didn't name names. She didn't single anyone out. She very clearly defined WHAT was unacceptable about this situation. Yet at the same time, she avoided throwing any of her co-workers under the bus and giving anyone the impression that she's "out to get" anyone.

----------


## Robotman

If Jason Momoa doesn’t say “Outrageous!” in this movis I’m going to be very disappointed.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> If Jason Momoa doesn’t say “Outrageous!” in this movis I’m going to be very disappointed.


My thoughts as well

Any guesses whe we'll get an Aquaman trailer?

----------


## Frontier

> If Jason Momoa doesn’t say “Outrageous!” in this movis I’m going to be very disappointed.


Same here  :Wink: .

----------


## Lightning Rider

*"Aquaman, he's not even really Aquaman yet. He's not the King of the Seven Seas. We don't really get there until my solo movie, at the end. Really, it's a huge growth for me. It's a gigantic arc for Arthur Curry. It may be tough for a lot of fans to watch what they're gonna see, how I portray him. But you gotta wait until we get to the solo movie to really know. Because he's not King yet." - Jason Momoa*

Haven't read the rest of the article but it has spoiler warnings.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/aquam...oilers-a154531

----------


## Lightning Rider

Ben on what Whedon brings to the story:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...league-a154532

----------


## Styles

'Wonder Woman 2' Production Start Date Reportedly Revealed

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If Jason Momoa doesn’t say “Outrageous!” in this movis I’m going to be very disappointed.


I won't be disappointed, but it would be nice (though I don't want Arthur to be a pompous windbag - it was fun on the cartoon, but it would be cheesy in the film, IMO).

----------


## Frontier

I can't believe we're getting a Barry Allen Flash who hasn't even graduated from college yet  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> *"Aquaman, he's not even really Aquaman yet. He's not the King of the Seven Seas. We don't really get there until my solo movie, at the end. Really, it's a huge growth for me. It's a gigantic arc for Arthur Curry. It may be tough for a lot of fans to watch what they're gonna see, how I portray him. But you gotta wait until we get to the solo movie to really know. Because he's not King yet." - Jason Momoa*
> 
> Haven't read the rest of the article but it has spoiler warnings.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/aquam...oilers-a154531


Interesting. I had a feeling he wasn't king yet from the videos of them filming and the way he acted in the first trailer.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> I can't believe we're getting a Barry Allen Flash who hasn't even graduated from college yet .


Why not just use Wally West then?

----------


## Frontier

> Why not just use Wally West then?


Because he wasn't in the New 52  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

But seriously though, Miller's Flash just feels more and more like Kid Flash then the actual Flash at this point.

----------


## Johnny

> I can't believe we're getting a Barry Allen Flash who hasn't even graduated from college yet .


I bet in this universe Dick Grayson will be older than Barry Allen. That just sounds mind-boggling.

----------


## ironman2978

> Because he wasn't in the New 52 ?
> 
> But seriously though, Miller's Flash just feels more and more like Kid Flash then the actual Flash at this point.


I think the idea is similar to what JL/JLU did with Wally:




> Fundamentally the Flash is a difficult character to adapt, as his history from the comic books draws heavily from what has become known as the Flash Legacy, a mythos that has become both a blessing and a curse for the character.  Here, Wally West is the third man to take up the mantle of the Flash, with Jay Garrick (the Golden Age Flash) and Barry Allen (the Silver Age Flash) coming before himand this doesnt even take into account the presence of Johnny Quick, Max Mercury, Jesse Quick, Impulsea literal army of speedsters that spans hundreds of years, with each of them connected to the Speed Force, a fundamental energy source that all speed-related individuals tap into.  While it is true that this mythos does provide a rich tapestry for writers to draw upon, it also holds the character back, as most modern-day Flash stories seem to be mired in it (in the comics, Wally West fights crime as the Flash in memoriam of Barry Allen, who died in 1985's Crisis on Infinite Earths series, and is constantly in his shadow).  As a result, readers often see the current Flash as nothing more than an extension of the mythos and not as an individual character; as he races through the pages of his monthly comic he drags his back-story behind him.
> 
> To combat this, the creative team took a big risk by severing Wally Wests ties to the Flash Legacy.  On Justice League Wally is the only superhero to ever bear the identity of the Flash, and this distance from the mythos allows the character the chance to be something that he has never been able to be in his previous incarnations:  unique.  He doesnt have to operate in the shadow of two prior incarnations; he is free to live his life without being compared to another hero.  And while comic fans have complained about the absence of Jay Garrick and Barry Allen, their omission provides Wally the opportunity to be his own man.
> 
> *In keeping with the concept of Wally West being the only Flash, it should come as no surprise that, without a mentor in Barry Allen or the presence of the Teen Titans to hone his skills with, the creative team decided to make his character fill the category of the rookie in the teams dynamic.  Portrayed as still learning the full range of his abilities and being inexperienced in terms of sacrifice (his bewilderment over Wonder Womans banishment in "Paradise Lost," his inability to comprehend leaving a teammate behind in "The Savage Time" or in "Hearts and Minds"), the Flash provides an interesting contrast when compared to his more seasoned teammates, who have been doing the job for years (and, in some cases, for centuries).  In truth, the character is more Kid Flash than regular Flash, and the opportunity to see his evolution as a hero sans Barry is a new wrinkle for an old, Silver Age character.  In addition, his lack of a mentor provides Wally with a measure of uncertainty when it comes to what his powers are actually capable of*as shown in "Only a Dream," the thought that his powers may one day lock him into super-speed mode permanently is one that will keep him awake at night for years to come.*
> 
> On Justice League, the Flash is frequently portrayed as being an everyman, a peoples superherounlike the others, the Flash is the one that the public is most likely to run into on the streets and interact regularly with (whereas Batman is more likely to stick to the shadows, and the others can fly).  Hes also more approachable, spending his spare time flirting with women in diners and visiting children in orphanages.  These attributes make him indispensable to the team, as he provides a vital link between the Justice League and the community they serve (although it can also be a detriment, as he learned when he tried marketing his persona in "Eclipsed").
> *
> As for his relationship to the team itself, the Flash shares a vital symbiotic relationship with the Justice League.  On one hand, his friendly and easy-going personality serves as the glue that holds the organization together.  Over the series duration, hes managed to befriend every member of the team on some level; from his Oscar-and-Felix friendship with Green Lantern to the sarcastic remarks that he regularly trades with Hawkgirl.  Through these relationships the Flash becomes a window with which we can get to know the other characters; in truth, hes a better peripheral character than Batman is because his extraverted personality.*  On the other hand, in exchange for these benefits, the Flash is unconsciously forced to become a better hero by his association with the others.*  Consider the evolution of his characters abilities:  in Season One, the Flash was frequently seen being taken down by debris or by a slower target or simply doing something that undermined his status as a hero (one of the worst being his inability to pilot the Javelin-7 in "In Blackest Night"); while, in Season Two, he appears to have improved in his overall performance, piloting the Javelin-7 successfully in "Maid of Honor" and using his speed-related abilities in new ways (such as tricking the Justice Lords Batman into believing his heart had stopped in "A Better World").  *Overall, he is, literally, the heart of the League (as it was alluded to in "A Better World"), as his presence provides levity to the teams mindset, as well as a measure of pride in his development.*



While Ezra Barry serves the same purpose of JL Wally(the rookie/comedic role), He definitely seems like he is playing on the core Barry characteristics in a Ezra fashion(how Barry is always fashionable late in the scene with Commissioner Gordon, his fanboy/comic loving persona, the absentmindedness, the scientist, and his everyman nature).  So it's basically the best of all Flashes.

----------


## Ascended

> I think the idea is similar to what JL/JLU did with Wally:
> 
> While Ezra Barry serves the same purpose of JL Wally(the rookie/comedic role), He definitely seems like he is playing on the core Barry characteristics in a Ezra fashion(how Barry is always fashionable late in the scene with Commissioner Gordon, his fanboy/comic loving persona, the absentmindedness, the scientist, and his everyman nature).  So it's basically the best of all Flashes.


Millar's Flash certainly does have a certain "Flash-ness" to him and embody many of the character traits associated with the property. But he doesn't feel very much like Barry Allen to me. You can see the Barry-isms are there.....but it's not really Barry. I feel like Millar is playing a solid Flash archetype, but not so much the character of Barry Allen.

From what we've seen so far of course. I may walk about of the theater with a completely different opinion. And in any case, I can accept a Flash archetype over a particular Flash's character. Its just a movie, after all.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Millar's Flash certainly does have a certain "Flash-ness" to him and embody many of the character traits associated with the property. But he doesn't feel very much like Barry Allen to me. You can see the Barry-isms are there.....but it's not really Barry. I feel like Millar is playing a solid Flash archetype, but not so much the character of Barry Allen.
> 
> From what we've seen so far of course. I may walk about of the theater with a completely different opinion. And in any case, I can accept a Flash archetype over a particular Flash's character. Its just a movie, after all.


Outside of comics, media such as TV and movies seem to have always gone for a generic Flash archetype rather than really delve in to the specific characterizations of Jay, Barry, Wally, and Bart.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## ironman2978

> Outside of comics, media such as TV and movies seem to have always gone for a generic Flash archetype rather than really delve in to the specific characterizations of Jay, Barry, Wally, and Bart.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I feel like this started in the 90's TV show if not STAS/JL/JLU. While it does make the character likable  to fans, but it does lead to arguments that when they have the comedic Flash archetype, there simply copying one Flash(Wally or Bart per most arguments) as opposed to making them distinctive yet still likable as people. Yes there are some distinctive way they handle this base archetypes, but it's one that producers love using nonetheless.

----------


## Confuzzled

As someone whose first exposure to Flash and his dynamics with the JL was through JL/JLU, this seems in a similar vein, even if it's Barry. A lot of people growing up in the 90's and 00's see Flash as the jokester/baby brother of the League. And the show ended up giving Wally's personality traits to Barry so there's precedence in that regard as well.

----------


## Robotman

But Ezra isn’t coming off as the wacky version of Wally from JLU. He seems quite nerdy, a little awkward, and in total awe of what’s going on around him. In the Silver Age, Barry was a comic book nerd, had a crew cut, would wear bow ties, and was known for always being late. Kind of a stereotypical nerd. Once he became the Flash he was more of the prototypical hero personality. He lost most of his quirky personality traits and became kind of boring. I’m happy to see some of those traits being brought back in The Flash tv show and now in the DCEU. I think Ezra is playing Barry as a “nerd” but the thing is that nerds are now cool. So he’s what Hollywood perceives as a nerd.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Question: has Barry or Wally even been accurately portrayed in live-action or animated form? Not since the '80s ended, at any rate.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Question: has Barry or Wally even been accurately portrayed in live-action or animated form? Not since the '80s ended, at any rate.


Young Justice came close IMO but not really. I love Barry on Flash and Wally in JL and JLU and think Ezra will do fine but yeah Flash rarely gets portrayed as he is in the comics. But who does? There been debates and even articles about the portrayal of Superman and Batman in the DCEU. These aren't the comic versions nor should they be I mean the characters even change in the comics from writer to writer and especially with Reboots.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Young Justice came close IMO but not really.


I agree that's the closest, but still not quite.




> I love Barry on Flash and Wally in JL and JLU and think Ezra will do fine but yeah Flash rarely gets portrayed as he is in the comics. But who does? There been debates and even articles about the portrayal of Superman and Batman in the DCEU. These are the comic versions nor should they be I mean the characters even change in the comics from writer to writer and especially with Reboots.


I agree. The characters are pliable and shaped certain ways if the story desires it.

----------


## Frontier

> Question: has Barry or Wally even been accurately portrayed in live-action or animated form? Not since the '80s ended, at any rate.


I guess your opinion on that would also probably depend on what you think Barry and Wally's personality are in the first place.

But I do agree _Young Justice_ probably came the closest to getting both Barry and Wally right and making them feel distinctive from one another.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I guess your opinion on that would also probably depend on what you think Barry and Wally's personality are in the first place.


Very true. There are disagreements regarding how they're depicted just in the comics alone.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Very true. There are disagreements regarding how they're depicted just in the comics alone.


Which is why I made the venn diagram! Which most generally agreed with and added to.

http://community.comicbookresources....-Personalities



I might add a 3rd bubble for Bart in the future. JLU Wally struck me as very Impulse esque.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Which is why I made the venn diagram! Which most generally agreed with and added to.
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....-Personalities
> 
> 
> 
> I might add a 3rd bubble for Bart in the future. JLU Wally struck me as very Impulse esque.


Great stuff, Bogotazo, and I agree on all counts.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> While Ezra Barry serves the same purpose of JL Wally(the rookie/comedic role), He definitely seems like he is playing on the core Barry characteristics in a Ezra fashion(how Barry is always fashionable late in the scene with Commissioner Gordon, his fanboy/comic loving persona, the absentmindedness, the scientist, and his everyman nature).  So it's basically the best of all Flashes.


I agree.  




> Millar's Flash certainly does have a certain "Flash-ness" to him and embody many of the character traits associated with the property. But he doesn't feel very much like Barry Allen to me. You can see the Barry-isms are there.....but it's not really Barry. I feel like Millar is playing a solid Flash archetype, but not so much the character of Barry Allen.
> 
> From what we've seen so far of course. I may walk about of the theater with a completely different opinion. And in any case, I can accept a Flash archetype over a particular Flash's character. Its just a movie, after all.


Maybe so to a certain degree... I just can't agree with those who say that he is playing Barry just like Wally.  





> But Ezra isn’t coming off as the wacky version of Wally from JLU. He seems quite nerdy, a little awkward, and in total awe of what’s going on around him. In the Silver Age, Barry was a comic book nerd, had a crew cut, would wear bow ties, and was known for always being late. Kind of a stereotypical nerd. Once he became the Flash he was more of the prototypical hero personality. He lost most of his quirky personality traits and became kind of boring. I’m happy to see some of those traits being brought back in The Flash tv show and now in the DCEU. I think Ezra is playing Barry as a “nerd” but the thing is that nerds are now cool. So he’s what Hollywood perceives as a nerd.


I think that is definitely what Miller is attempting.




> Question: has Barry or Wally even been accurately portrayed in live-action or animated form? Not since the '80s ended, at any rate.


Young Justice, JL:  War.  Miller's portrayal seems like a younger, exaggerated version of his portrayal in JL:  War.  I think people might think differently if he was blonde.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Which is why I made the venn diagram! Which most generally agreed with and added to.
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....-Personalities
> 
> 
> 
> I might add a 3rd bubble for Bart in the future. JLU Wally struck me as very Impulse esque.


That is what I have always said.  People who loved Wally in JLU actually loved him for personality traits more similar to Bart.  In JL/JLU they were writing Wally just like Bart!  Plus Miller's Barry Allen (so far) seems like Barry/Bart hybrid.

----------


## DamianBane

> Which is why I made the venn diagram! Which most generally agreed with and added to.
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....-Personalities
> 
> 
> 
> I might add a 3rd bubble for Bart in the future. JLU Wally struck me as very Impulse esque.


This is perfect

----------


## soccerguy951

> That is what I have always said.  People who loved Wally in JLU actually loved him for personality traits more similar to Bart.  In JL/JLU they were writing Wally just like Bart!  Plus Miller's Barry Allen (so far) seems like Barry/Bart hybrid.


Al those qualities listed on the Wally circle seem like JLU Flash and don't seem like Bart to me. "Socially Engaged, Impatient, Stubborn, Sarcastic, Direct and Simple, Slightly Cocky... all those seem to describe JLU Flash, and i don't see Bart as Stubborn, Sarcastic or Slightly Cocky.

----------


## byrd156

> I bet in this universe Dick Grayson will be older than Barry Allen. That just sounds mind-boggling.


That is just wrong.

----------


## Johnny

> That is just wrong.


Yea and it's wrong for Barry Allen's bff to be Cyborg and not Hal Jordan but there you have it.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Yea and it's wrong for Barry Allen's bff to be Cyborg and not Hal Jordan but there you have it.


And it's wrong that the Justice League shouldn't form until Batman is on the downside of his career. This is the most egregious problem to me. To have Batman forming the JL when he's at the end of his career means any future JL stories will have to reboot, use a younger actor and just pretend the League formed when Batman was younger, or include a Batman that is near his sell-by date.

This is the biggest continuity problem in the DCEU (or whatever they're calling it): That Batman should fail to meet up with any other heroes until his career was nearly over. It completely neuters any future JL movie unless they leave Batman out and I'd say there's less than zero chance they'll make a JL movie without Batman.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Al those qualities listed on the Wally circle seem like JLU Flash and don't seem like Bart to me. "Socially Engaged, Impatient, Stubborn, Sarcastic, Direct and Simple, Slightly Cocky... all those seem to describe JLU Flash, and i don't see Bart as Stubborn, Sarcastic or Slightly Cocky.


I don't think JLU Flash was stubborn or slightly cocky (at least anymore than any other speedster about being the fastest.)  JLU Flash was more similar to Young Justice Impulse than Young Justice Kid Flash.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Riesman clarified, "In all my interviews, DC folks were never disrespectful of Zack Snyder."

https://heroichollywood.com/dc-presi...nyders-vision/

----------


## Rend20

> I don't think JLU Flash was stubborn or slightly cocky (at least anymore than any other speedster about being the fastest.)  JLU Flash was more similar to Young Justice Impulse than Young Justice Kid Flash.


Really? I thought JLU Wally and YJ Wally were incredibly similar in terms of core personality and characteristics. 

Both were portrayed as semi-incompetent goofballs for comic relief. Both could be a stubborn butt at times. Both acted full of themselves. Both liked to pass themselves off as a ladies man. Both were incredibly snarky. Both had a habit of rushing head first into things and sticking their foot into their mouths. Both shows even considered humanity the strength of the character -- though I thought JLU did a much better job highlighting that.

There were obviously some differences as is the case when comparing any adaptations to one another, but the core of the character seemed to be pretty much the same to me on both shows. The big difference to me was JLU Wally retained a sense of responsibility and desire to do what he thought was right as a hero where those qualities were pretty much missing from the YJ adaptation.

As for Barry in the DCEU, I'm taking a wait and see approach. Though him being as young as he is and potentially the comic relief does feel kind of weird to me.

----------


## TheCape

> I don't think JLU Flash was stubborn or slightly cocky (at least anymore than any other speedster about being the fastest.) JLU Flash was more similar to Young Justice Impulse than Young Justice Kid Flash.


I think that JLU Wally was like the comic book version of the characther in his first years as Flash. I never saw much of Bart in that show, Bart's humor come's more from his cuckoo cloud lander qualities, than putting his foot ob his mouth because he is trying to impress others.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Ben could be Batman for 6 more years or more, I really don't see that as a serious problem whatsoever.

----------


## Ascended

> Maybe so to a certain degree... I just can't agree with those who say that he is playing Barry just like Wally.


Oh, he definitely isn't playing Barry like Wally. I hate it when that argument gets brought up. Just because Barry is being written as a little extroverted and funny doesn't mean he's being written like Wally. That just shows a very thin understanding of both characters.

----------


## Ascended

> Question: has Barry or Wally even been accurately portrayed in live-action or animated form? Not since the '80s ended, at any rate.


I think what we saw of Barry in Young Justice was pretty damn spot on. Corny sense of humor, light hearted without being a joke, approachable and easy going.....they even work in the science angle with Neutron. 

YJ Wally.....that one's a little harder to really dig into. I think they were taking Wally's adult, "as Flash" personality and trying to adapt it for a contemporary teenager, across media formats and continuities. But for all that, I did see a lot of OG comic Wally in the cartoon. It wasn't spot on but I think it was probably as good as we'll ever see.

----------


## Rend20

> Question: has Barry or Wally even been accurately portrayed in live-action or animated form? Not since the '80s ended, at any rate.


What about Wally's portrayal as Kid Flash in the _Batman: The Brave and the Bold_ episode? I know it was only a single episode, but he was fun without being the comic relief, was dealing with the pressure of filling in for Barry to a degree, and I thought his subplot with Jay was really good in terms of depth and execution.

----------


## Agent Z

> And it's wrong that the Justice League shouldn't form until Batman is on the downside of his career. This is the most egregious problem to me. To have Batman forming the JL when he's at the end of his career means any future JL stories will have to reboot, use a younger actor and just pretend the League formed when Batman was younger, or include a Batman that is near his sell-by date.
> 
> This is the biggest continuity problem in the DCEU (or whatever they're calling it): That Batman should fail to meet up with any other heroes until his career was nearly over. It completely neuters any future JL movie unless they leave Batman out and I'd say there's less than zero chance they'll make a JL movie without Batman.


It doesn't neuter any stories in the slightest. It's only an issue if fans make it one. There is no announcement of them rebooting within a new actor and if they do it will likely be because of the scandals attached to Affleck. The only reason to feel a younger Batman would be better is because that's what fans are used to.

----------


## Confuzzled

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong in a past his prime Batman founding the JL. If Flashpoint or something deages him then that's fine too.

----------


## Jokerz79

> It doesn't neuter any stories in the slightest. It's only an issue if fans make it one. There is no announcement of them rebooting within a new actor and if they do it will likely be because of the scandals attached to Affleck. The only reason to feel a younger Batman would be better is because that's what fans are used to.


I never gotten the idea of why Batman is even viewed as young. Dick Grayson has been at least a late aged teen since the late sixties now an adult with multiple Robins succeeding him. Every actor to portray the character life action outside of the serials and Bale who was 31 has been late 30's and close to 40 if not over when had taken the role.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I never gotten the idea of why Batman is even viewed as young. Dick Grayson has been at least a late aged teen since the late sixties now an adult with multiple Robins succeeding him. Every actor to portray the character life action outside of the serials and Bale who was 31 has been late 30's and close to 40 if not over when had taken the role.


I think it's just a post-Year One thing. Before that, I don't think anybody believed Batman to be in his 20's. Heck, Adam West, many people's first exposure to the character, was pushing 40 when he did the show.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Considering the heavy lifting is done by stuntmen, Affleck just has to look good in the suit; he can easily continue to play the character until he’s 50 or older, as long as he continues to look good. It’s a movie, not real life, so I don’t understand the worry about Affleck’s age.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Oh, he definitely isn't playing Barry like Wally. I hate it when that argument gets brought up. Just because Barry is being written as a little extroverted and funny doesn't mean he's being written like Wally. That just shows a very thin understanding of both characters.


Yeah... unfortunately it is the knee jerk reaction of certain fans.




> I think what we saw of Barry in Young Justice was pretty damn spot on. Corny sense of humor, light hearted without being a joke, approachable and easy going.....they even work in the science angle with Neutron. 
> 
> YJ Wally.....that one's a little harder to really dig into. I think they were taking Wally's adult, "as Flash" personality and trying to adapt it for a contemporary teenager, across media formats and continuities. But for all that, I did see a lot of OG comic Wally in the cartoon. It wasn't spot on but I think it was probably as good as we'll ever see.


Young Justice and JL: War were pretty spot on.

I think it was better than JL Wally.  It was deeper since it showed him at two different stages of his life.  The young adult Wally was WAY more mature than JL Wally.  Hell... the YJ Kid Flash seemed more mature than JL Wally.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Hell... the YJ Kid Flash seemed more mature than JL Wally.


I wouldn't go that far lol

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Ezra announces the Flash week: https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...56130415001600

----------


## Frontier

Whatever I can say about the DCEU's take on The Flash, I appreciate Ezra Miller's enthusiasm  :Smile: .

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> And it's wrong that the Justice League shouldn't form until Batman is on the downside of his career. This is the most egregious problem to me. To have Batman forming the JL when he's at the end of his career means any future JL stories will have to reboot, use a younger actor and just pretend the League formed when Batman was younger, or include a Batman that is near his sell-by date.
> 
> This is the biggest continuity problem in the DCEU (or whatever they're calling it): That Batman should fail to meet up with any other heroes until his career was nearly over. It completely neuters any future JL movie unless they leave Batman out and I'd say there's less than zero chance they'll make a JL movie without Batman.


Or they set up Dick Grayson to take up the mantle. 

None of what you said is an issue at all.

----------


## ekrolo2

Did anyone complain about the DCAU having a pretty old Batman when the League forms? Because that guy was already Batman for a while when he gets Robin, making him well over 30 by the time he and Dick break off and it's implied a few years passed before Nightwing showed up. So yeah, at absolute least he's pushing well into his late 30s and probably is already in his early 40s when the League arrives.

Also, Wonder Woman was the baby of the team there, not appearing until the League itself assembled.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Its never funny to trivialize or joke about the topic of rape. Especially since so many lives are destroyed over such a heinous action. Rape should never be joked about, period.
> 
> Affleck should have kept his hypocritical mouth shut; whatever prompted him to speak indicates that there was more going on behind the scenes. Its a pity he is the best batman I have ever seen because now it seems inevitable that he will at some point get recasted as the dark knight. For the JLA movie, in my opinion, it is really too late to recast him.


I think he spoke out because at some point he clearly got Harvey's nonsense, as indicated by McGowen showing that Affleck tried to stop to the actions of the man.

I think Affleck's case is a combination of fear for his career, and gratitude/debt to the man that helped him into Hollywood. 

Not saying it justifies his silence, but it makes his silence very understandable. Paltrow is the weirdest one tho, because Harvey harassed her, but she continued to work with him.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Paltrow is the weirdest one tho, because Harvey harassed her, but she continued to work with him.


People can put up with a lot of crap in Hollywood, because the dividends can be huge.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Ezra announces the Flash week: https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...56130415001600


So, I guess this is the week where someone will dig up something stupid that Ezra said or did years ago to start another boycott campaign against "Justice League", right?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> So, I guess this is the week where someone will dig up something stupid that Ezra said or did years ago to start another boycott campaign against "Justice League", right?


I wouldn't bet money against that happening, Mr. Crown.

----------


## Elmo

> So, I guess this is the week where someone will dig up something stupid that Ezra said or did years ago to start another boycott campaign against "Justice League", right?


It happened before---people dug up a short film he directed showing an actor portraying Darren Wilson (murderer of Michael Brown) defending his crime in front of a mirror; people assumed it was in defense of Wilson when in fact it was the exact opposite.

----------


## Johnny

> So, I guess this is the week where someone will dig up something stupid that Ezra said or did years ago to start another boycott campaign against "Justice League", right?


Pretty much.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I apologize if this was already discussed ITT but didn't see it. It looks like WB execs are coming out and straight up saying they didn't like Zack Snyder's vision for the DCEU. They're pretty vague as to when they decided this, but you take this and the Geoff Johns comments from NYCC where he told reporters that he didn't agree with Snyder's take on Man of Steel and warned about much of what was criticized by reviewers and fans, and I'm starting to get nervous. I'm starting to think WB might not be confident in JL and are sandbagging already, and Snyder is the victim that's about to get chucked under the bus, right or wrong. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/15/j...-sync-with-dc/

----------


## Beantownbrown

> I apologize if this was already discussed ITT but didn't see it. It looks like WB execs are coming out and straight up saying they didn't like Zack Snyder's vision for the DCEU. They're pretty vague as to when they decided this, but you take this and the Geoff Johns comments from NYCC where he told reporters that he didn't agree with Snyder's take on Man of Steel and warned about much of what was criticized by reviewers and fans, and I'm starting to get nervous. I'm starting to think WB might not be confident in JL and are sandbagging already, and Snyder is the victim that's about to get chucked under the bus, right or wrong. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/15/j...-sync-with-dc/





More from Riseman's twitter page

https://twitter.com/abrahamjoseph/st...53416409985025

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think he spoke out because at some point he clearly got Harvey's nonsense, as indicated by McGowen showing that Affleck tried to stop to the actions of the man.
> 
> I think Affleck's case is a combination of fear for his career, and gratitude/debt to the man that helped him into Hollywood. 
> 
> Not saying it justifies his silence, but it makes his silence very understandable. Paltrow is the weirdest one tho, because Harvey harassed her, but she continued to work with him.


I'm not thrilled by Affleck (and the rest of Hollywood) not blowing the whistle on Weisntein, but it's like you said. I can understand the fear of going against someone who built your career and has that much power. I like to think I'd be a better man than them and speak out, but I'm not 100% certain I would be able to. It's not an easy situation to be, though it's obviously aso not the worst, as Harvey's numerous victims can attest.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I'm not thrilled by Affleck (and the rest of Hollywood) not blowing the whistle on Weisntein, but it's like you said. I can understand the fear of going against someone who built your career and has that much power. I like to think I'd be a better man than them and speak out, but I'm not 100% certain I would be able to. It's not an easy situation to be, though it's obviously aso not the worst, as Harvey's numerous victims can attest.


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...5200?s=594x594 that wasn't 10 or 20 years ago and there are many photos of Ben and Weinstein all smiles together. It's one thing to stay silent out of fear it's another to stay silent and remain friends with the guy. I don't think I'll ever look at him the same again now it doesn't effect my feelings for Justice League lots of films as we can see have lots of people who do lots of Scummy things in them.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I apologize if this was already discussed ITT but didn't see it. It looks like WB execs are coming out and straight up saying they didn't like Zack Snyder's vision for the DCEU. They're pretty vague as to when they decided this, but you take this and the Geoff Johns comments from NYCC where he told reporters that he didn't agree with Snyder's take on Man of Steel and warned about much of what was criticized by reviewers and fans, and I'm starting to get nervous. I'm starting to think WB might not be confident in JL and are sandbagging already, and Snyder is the victim that's about to get chucked under the bus, right or wrong. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/15/j...-sync-with-dc/





> More from Riseman's twitter page
> 
> https://twitter.com/abrahamjoseph/st...53416409985025


Directors and Studios Execs butting heads isn't anything new. Just look at Matthew Vaughn's statements about Kingsman.




_"Because we don’t have a bunch of Hollywood suits telling us what to do. If we did, I promise you wouldn’t be liking the movie"_, says Vaughn.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09...l-spy-masters/

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Justice League runtime is currently listed as 121 min...

https://twitter.com/NormanGoldenll/s...56554339225600

----------


## Buried Alien

> Justice League runtime is currently listed as 121 min...
> 
> https://twitter.com/NormanGoldenll/s...56554339225600


Only?  I was hoping there would be more movie.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Justice League runtime is currently listed as 121 min...
> 
> https://twitter.com/NormanGoldenll/s...56554339225600


There's no way this is true, must be just a placeholder. "Man of Steel" and "Wonder Woman" are solo movies and both have over 140 minutes. How an assemble movie that needs to introduce three main characters and resurrect another can be only 120 minutes? Unless it's a HUGE mess.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There's no way this is true, must be just a placeholder. "Man of Steel" and "Wonder Woman" are solo movies and both have over 140 minutes. How an assemble movie that needs to introduce three main characters and resurrect another can be only 120 minutes? Unless it's a HUGE mess.


Yeah, if it's really only 2 hours, that's inadequate to say the least.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I think that number is likely a placeholder. Other theater chains have put up different runtimes for JL. For example this IMAX theater currently has the runtime at a whopping 170! 

According to Eh Maybe, WB has not provided a final runtime yet.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Zack Snyder Promises A Month Of BTS Justice League Images*



Source

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...5200?s=594x594 that wasn't 10 or 20 years ago and there are many photos of Ben and Weinstein all smiles together. It's one thing to stay silent out of fear it's another to stay silent and remain friends with the guy. I don't think I'll ever look at him the same again now it doesn't effect my feelings for Justice League lots of films as we can see have lots of people who do lots of Scummy things in them.


Ugh, hand't seen that. Gross.

----------


## Pinsir

> Justice League runtime is currently listed as 121 min...
> 
> https://twitter.com/NormanGoldenll/s...56554339225600


Sounds fine for me.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Isn't that like an hour shorter than Wonder Woman? Seems short to me.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

http://www.warnerbros2017.com/screen...lm=wonderwoman

Warner Bros campaigning for some Wonder Woman Oscar nominations.

----------


## Frontier

Cool  :Cool: .

----------


## Jokerz79

> http://www.warnerbros2017.com/screen...lm=wonderwoman
> 
> Warner Bros campaigning for some Wonder Woman Oscar nominations.


Not going lie it's a good movie but IMO costume design is the only one I think they deserve an nomination for maybe also cinematography. But the rest the story and acting was good but nothing stellar IMO and the special effects were a little dodgy in scenes like the Amazon who swang done and hill side and got shot was really bad you could tell it was CGI.

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Frontier

> 


He may not be in the poster, but at least he's in the logo  :Wink: .

(Though a League of 5-6 people feels kind of off).

Cool poster though  :Smile: .

----------


## Elmo

The runtime for Justice League is 2hours and 50 minutes. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand.

----------


## Buried Alien

> The runtime for Justice League is 2hours and 50 minutes. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand.


And clear your calendar for that day.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> The runtime for Justice League is 2hours and 50 minutes. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand.


Source? 

If so, looks like I'll only be able to go twice on opening day.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The runtime for Justice League is 2hours and 50 minutes. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand.


I'm glad, I wanted more. Thanks!

----------


## Beantownbrown

> The runtime for Justice League is 2hours and 50 minutes. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand.





> Source?


This, where's the source?

----------


## BatmanJones

> The runtime for Justice League is 2hours and 50 minutes. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand.


This is very encouraging news. I've decided in advance I'm going to love this in spite of my loathing of BvS and nothing but a truly terrible movie will change my mind. (Of course I felt exactly the same about BvS. And then I saw it.) The longer run-time also makes it more likely we'll see more characters than the six. I've seen rumors of all sorts of characters popping up, though I've avoided spoilers as much as possible and will continue to do so. I hope every rumored character DOES show up though. I don't just want a GL, I want two of them. Not to mention the Hawks, Nightwing, Green Arrow, The Atom, just as many superheroes as possible. And not all of the ones I listed have been rumored. Not spoiling anything (I don't know anything) except a taste of the characters I'd like to see. I'd like to see as many as possible. 2:50 runtime gives time for additional characters to be a possibility at least. Crossing all my fingers we'll see more characters. Crossing all fingers AND toes that this is not a typical Zach Snyder film and that it's as great as it possibly can be.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Hot dam! 2 hrs and 50 mins??? This is what I was hoping for. 
This movie needs every minute! Definitely hit the restrooms before. It may suffer from lack of showtimes now, but wjatever. I’m pumped of this is true. I sat through Blade Runner 2049 just fine. I think I can manage JL.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

What's the source of the 2 hours 50 min run time? I seriously doubt that.

----------


## Troian

> Not going lie it's a good movie but IMO costume design is the only one I think they deserve an nomination for maybe also cinematography. But the rest the story and acting was good but nothing stellar IMO and the special effects were a little dodgy in scenes like the Amazon who swang done and hill side and got shot was really bad you could tell it was CGI.


Costume or makeup will be the only thing it will likely get.

----------


## Troian

> What's the source of the 2 hours 50 min run time? I seriously doubt that.


Will probably be the runtime of the extended cut :P

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I don't think the 170 minutes has been officially confirmed yet, to my knowledge the 170 minutes was just a number that was listed on an IMAX theater's upcoming attractions page that I linked earlier. 

Other theater chains have had 150 minutes listed, 121 minutes, and I even saw a pic on Twitter of a Mexican theater's page that had it at 100 minutes.

On a different note, for anyone that's interested, Zack Snyder will be posting BTS photos on his Vero account up to release day.

----------


## Elmo

Sorry guys. Earlier this morning I swear I saw a tweet from CBR saying the runtime for JL was 170min. If you google "Justice League runtime" the first thing that comes up is a big "2 hours 50 minutes" and it says the same thing on IMDB. However, none of these are enough for it to be considered official and no such tweet from CBR exists so take it with a grain of salt. I will say though this isn't the first time the rumor of "170 minutes" has come up before regarding Justice League.

----------


## Robotman

So from Jason Momoa’s interview in the back of this week’s comics it sounds like when we meet Aquaman he’s still in his Others phase. “...a rebel outlaw on the fringes of society...he has always hung out with the riffraff and the dredges as a kind of outcast.” 

The closest version of Arthur I can compare that to is Aquaman and The Others. A more brash Arthur running around with a strange crew of misfits. 



It was before he took his rightful place as king of Atlantis and was more of a globe trotting rebel.

----------


## Calvinr

2 hours 50mins? That's great news, I do believe all super hero team up films should always be a bit longer than solo films,,,not long to wait now though  :Big Grin:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_Bruce Evans: Do you guys know the run-time of the movie?

IMAX Melbourne: Hi Bruce, runtime (excluding trailers) is 118 minutes!_

https://www.facebook.com/imaxmelbour...5790509769911/

----------


## Soubhagya

> _Bruce Evans: Do you guys know the run-time of the movie?
> 
> IMAX Melbourne: Hi Bruce, runtime (excluding trailers) is 118 minutes!_
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/imaxmelbour...5790509769911/


It is less then two hours? How on Earth are they putting that much of story in two hours. It needs at least two hours and 30 minutes. I guess Henry Cavill's scenes has been cut. Forget Green Lantern there won't be any Superman too. He is not in the marketing because he is not in the film.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

It maybe good. People seem to always complain about longer run times. But this movie definitely needs one.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> _Bruce Evans: Do you guys know the run-time of the movie?
> 
> IMAX Melbourne: Hi Bruce, runtime (excluding trailers) is 118 minutes!_
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/imaxmelbour...5790509769911/



Oh boy. Here we go again. If the run time is less than 2 hours that's a pretty good sign the studio pulled the same crap it pulled with BvS and chopped story for the sake of more showings and screenings.

----------


## Jokerz79

> _Bruce Evans: Do you guys know the run-time of the movie?
> 
> IMAX Melbourne: Hi Bruce, runtime (excluding trailers) is 118 minutes!_
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/imaxmelbour...5790509769911/


Wow Please Please tell me this isn't WB doing a BvS again? Every time they cut these films down I swear they're leaving money on the table.

----------


## Robotman

> Oh boy. Here we go again. If the run time is less than 2 hours that's a pretty good sign the studio pulled the same crap it pulled with BvS and chopped story for the sake of more showings and screenings.


Yeah this is a pretty terrible sign if true. Sounds like WB didn’t learn their lesson. Introducing 3 new heroes plus a new villain and the New God mythology in under 2 hours. Avengers had already introduced the heroes and the villain and it was over 2 and a half hours. Wonder Woman alone was 2 hours and 21 minutes.

----------


## Johnny

An incompetent studio not learning from their past mistakes. What a shocker.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Less than 2 hours is beyond stupid and no excuses can be made for it.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So many different cinema chains saying different things, let's not get too rustled up until there is 100% confirmation, guys!

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

This could be either a good thing or bad depending upon how you look at it.

That running time seems a little too specific to be a mistake, but maybe it's a miscommunication. That's possible...

However...

If the movie is indeed less that 2hrs, that certainly sounds like whatever Zach Snyder & Chris Terrio originally came up with has been largely scrapped except for the major action scenes & story beats. Joss Whedon's reshoots were rumored to be about 20 minutes of new scenes (which, could be bull$#!*, but 20+ million dollars is a lot to spend on a few bits here and there). 

Add onto that the fact that several interviews with the screenwriter and actors when the BvS first came out had already confirmed that this was a tighter, more straight-forward story and the later reports of the entire Luthor/Deathstroke subplot being cut out of the movie, I can certainly see how they can squeeze everything into under 2 hours.

Which means the trailer has pretty much shown us the entire movie, minus the Superman bits.

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about that. On one hand, it seems like Geoff Johns is trying to make a clean break with the Zach Snyder era by giving everyone the bare basic JL origin story, and playing it safe thereby avoiding anything that could blow up in their faces like it did with Man of Steel and BvS. That said, does this movie really need to be another over-long epic, when all it really needs to be an alien invasion being stopped by a team-up of a bunch of superheroes, each of whom is going to get fleshed out further in their own solo movies (well, except for Cyborg)?

You know what other movie is also a little under 2 hours? Raiders of the Lost Ark. While I don't think anybody thinks Justice League is going to be anywhere near that good, that should give us a little perspective on how unimportant a 2+ hour running time is to a movie.

----------


## Sodam Yat

If it's really less than 2 hours, then that's beyond ridiculous, especially for a movie with multiple superheroes in one film.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

So they can do a proper Aquaman costume...



They just chose not to...?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade



----------


## Frontier

> So they can do a proper Aquaman costume...
> 
> 
> 
> They just chose not to...?


It actually looks a lot like Momoa's costume, just with the gold in the right spot instead of green.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> This could be either a good thing or bad depending upon how you look at it.
> 
> That running time seems a little too specific to be a mistake, but maybe it's a miscommunication. That's possible...
> 
> However...
> 
> If the movie is indeed less that 2hrs, that certainly sounds like whatever Zach Snyder & Chris Terrio originally came up with has been largely scrapped except for the major action scenes & story beats. Joss Whedon's reshoots were rumored to be about 20 minutes of new scenes (which, could be bull$#!*, but 20+ million dollars is a lot to spend on a few bits here and there). 
> 
> Add onto that the fact that several interviews with the screenwriter and actors when the BvS first came out had already confirmed that this was a tighter, more straight-forward story and the later reports of the entire Luthor/Deathstroke subplot being cut out of the movie, I can certainly see how they can squeeze everything into under 2 hours.
> ...


I'm inclined to agree. It really depends not on if the studio cut anything, but what.  In the case of BvS, it's not that they widdled the movie down by 30 minutes, it's what was cut and what they kept in instead. For instance, they could have kept all the Superman stuff, and cut the Justice League cameos and the nightmare sequence or reworked portions of it into an after credits scene and we still could have had a 2.5 hour film that didn't suffer the narrative holes we got in the theatrical cut. I think honestly these types of movies could benefit from a shorter run time...IF edited well and if a clear and concise story is intact.  

That being said, if it turns out the shorter run time is because of the powers that be decided to once again screw over Superman for the benefit of more screen time for Batman or even Diana, I won't be happy. I love Diana and I like Batfleck, but I'm primarily going to this film to see Supes arc from MOS through BvS  to JL completed.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> That being said, if it turns out the shorter run time is because of the powers that be decided to once again screw over Superman for the benefit of more screen time for Batman or even Diana, I won't be happy. I love Diana and I like Batfleck, but I'm primarily going to this film to see Supes arc from MOS through BvS  to JL completed.


I agree Supes shouldn't be shortchanged for any reason.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I'm inclined to agree. It really depends not on if the studio cut anything, but what.  In the case of BvS, it's not that they widdled the movie down by 30 minutes, it's what was cut and what they kept in instead. For instance, they could have kept all the Superman stuff, and cut the Justice League cameos and the nightmare sequence or reworked portions of it into an after credits scene and we still could have had a 2.5 hour film that didn't suffer the narrative holes we got in the theatrical cut. I think honestly these types of movies could benefit from a shorter run time...IF edited well and if a clear and concise story is intact.  
> 
> That being said, if it turns out the shorter run time is because of the powers that be decided to once again screw over Superman for the benefit of more screen time for Batman or even Diana, I won't be happy. I love Diana and I like Batfleck, but I'm primarily going to this film to see Supes arc from MOS through BvS  to JL completed.


You improved the theatrical cut by a large extent. The intent of cuts should have been to make a coherent and meaningful movie. They thought stuff like JL cameos and Knightmare were more important. Batman was so heavy that they did not cut the dream sequence with the monstrous Bat. If such an approach is put here, i would be furious. Superman is a primary reason i am going to watch the movie. He shall not be cut for any reason.

----------


## nightbird

> So they can do a proper Aquaman costume...
> 
> 
> 
> They just chose not to...?


I bet they're saving "proper" Aquaman costume  for his solo, when he becomes a king. His JL costume probably some random armor, just like his "pitchfork".

----------


## Lightning Rider

A little nervous with the run-time rumors. 




> I agree Supes shouldn't be shortchanged for any reason.


I hope so too. But I think he's written as too essential for the story and also too absent for much of the film for too much to be cut.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Okay a few things:
a) Remember nothing is confirmed yet. 
b) Even if so why the assumption WB cut the film? 
c) Why the second assumption that Superman has been cut? 
d) Ya'll need to take a breathe and take it easy. 
e) We're getting a live action Justice League in less than a month ignore everything and just put your mind to that. 
f) Apparently Cinema's already using JL food merch, at least that's what my local cinema blog just posted, gonna crab a popcorn tin and a bottle.  :Cool:

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Okay a few things:
> a) Remember nothing is confirmed yet. 
> b) Even if so why the assumption WB cut the film? 
> c) Why the second assumption that Superman has been cut? 
> d) Ya'll need to take a breathe and take it easy.


a) agreed 
b) because they did it to Suicide Squad 
c) because they did it to BvS
d) fanboys will always fanboy ;-) That said, DC is currently 1/4 in the minds of a lot of people. I don't think a little skepticism is necessarily a bad thing, particularly when it comes to Superman.

----------


## Buried Alien

With just a little less than a month before release date, just WHY is so much contradictory information about run-time going public?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## MadFacedKid

> So they can do a proper Aquaman costume...
> 
> 
> 
> They just chose not to...?


Exact sentiments lol. Looks badass too

----------


## Jokerz79

Well Netflix is dropping Punisher on the same day as Justice League according to the New Trailer today.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> 


Huh, so there making Barry younger then Vic. Wondering how the GL/Flash friendship will play out in this universe. I'm honestly expecting Barry to be closer to Vic and judging off the trailer Batman

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Huh, so there making Barry younger then Vic. Wondering how the GL/Flash friendship will play out in this universe. I'm honestly expecting Barry to be closer to Vic and judging off the trailer Batman


I could see Hal being the bad older brother figure type. The one who convinces Barry to "live a little", potentially disobeying Batman in the process.

----------


## MadFacedKid

> I could see Hal being the bad older brother figure type. The one who convinces Barry to "live a little", potentially disobeying Batman in the process.


That would be a really awesome way to create that tension Hal and Bruce typically have.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> With just a little less than a month before release date, just WHY is so much contradictory information about run-time going public?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


WB likes to mess with us, I guess.

----------


## El_Gato

> I could see Hal being the bad older brother figure type. The one who convinces Barry to "live a little", potentially disobeying Batman in the process.


Hal is supposed to be a seasoned veteran in this universe, so probably around Batman's age. I can't see that happening. John Stewart on the other hand is supposed to be younger but I don't think his personality fits that role either. 

Honestly I don't think we'll get a Flash/GL friendship.

----------


## Johnny

> Hal is supposed to be a seasoned veteran in this universe, so probably around Batman's age. I can't see that happening. John Stewart on the other hand is supposed to be younger but I don't think his personality fits that role either. 
> 
> Honestly I don't think we'll get a Flash/GL friendship.


I think we still might, just not with Hal, because if they do make Hal old, it's basically to get him out of the way. Cause apparently they didn't shit on him enough last time.

----------


## Buried Alien

> WB likes to mess with us, I guess.


They REALLY need to work on their information control.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Hal is supposed to be a seasoned veteran in this universe, so probably around Batman's age. I can't see that happening. John Stewart on the other hand is supposed to be younger but I don't think his personality fits that role either. 
> 
> Honestly I don't think we'll get a Flash/GL friendship.


The cool Uncle then?

----------


## manofsteel1979

I do wonder if all the conflicting info about the run time is because Warner's is trying to keep a lid on twists like the rumored appearance of GL? Perhaps there are more than one cut floating around out there to throw people off and keep certain aspects of the film secret closer to release date? I don't recall the other DCEU films or any other recent film  having this much speculation and conflicting info about run times less than a month out.

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Robotman

> 


So basically they just have one image of Superman and they just put the other characters in different poses around him for every new poster.

----------


## Black_Adam

> With just a little less than a month before release date, just WHY is so much contradictory information about run-time going public?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Was watching DC Movie News last week and the guys were talking about how DC Films really need to get on the front foot with stuff like this. For example they knew all along the "DCEU" name wasn't official yet didn't think about clearing it up with a simple statement? In fact we still don't have an official name for this universe unless it is actually DC Films, which as per usual they haven't told us it is.

When Geoff Johns was appointed a lot of us were hoping he wouldn't just help guide this universe but would also be the face of it like Feige is with the MCU, every new MCU movie Feige does the rounds for the press. Even the Vulture article in which Johns was interviewed he had to clarify fan concerns about the inter-connectivity of the universe on Twitter I mean do they even pre-approve this stuff that goes out? Whoever is in charge of PR for these films honestly needs to be fired, I know they are trying to take the higher road by ignoring the rumours but the DCEU (or whatever it is called) is at a critical point and these constant rumours and negativity are doing serious damage to the brand. And it is so frustrating seeing these rumours constantly come up and the wall of silence from WB/DC.

----------


## Soubhagya

> 


Superman's battle pose is accurate. He does not need weapons or fists. (His smile is enough). He does not need evasive action too. Stand cooly. What can Parademons do to the 'true' Man of Steel? He is not a 'false' Man of Steel like Cyborg. A fairly accurate poster of  the 'battle poses' of JL members.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Styles

This isn't confirmation but a fan mentioned the 170 minute runtime on the Vero app, and Zack "likes" it. Maybe the 170 minutes is true. There'll probably be an official announcement soon.

----------


## Carabas

> This isn't confirmation but a fan mentioned the 170 minute runtime on the Vero app, and Zack "likes" it. Maybe the 170 minutes is true. There'll probably be an official announcement soon.


More like Snyder likes the idea of a 3 hour version, but that's not happening.

----------


## MosSuperman

https://twitter.com/LiveLoveLupe/sta...61189724139525

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Set Footage and Pictures of Aquaman and Mera together in costume. https://batman-news.com/2017/10/20/a...heard-costume/

Yo I'm so ready for this movie. So far it's looking really good. Aquaman and Mera on screen together has me hype. Didn't want to post the pics because people might count it as a spoiler  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> https://twitter.com/LiveLoveLupe/sta...61189724139525


Well, as per the immortal words of Val Kilmer's Batman and Chris O'Donnell's Robin:

"Chicks love/dig the car."

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Theaters were told by WB that #JusticeLeague was 121min for the purposes of showtimes. Unless WB is trying to screw them, that’s the runtime "_

https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/921422942277222400

----------


## Lightning Rider

> _"Theaters were told by WB that #JusticeLeague was 121min for the purposes of showtimes. Unless WB is trying to screw them, that’s the runtime "_
> 
> https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/921422942277222400


Wow. Less than an hour and a half.

----------


## Robotman

> Wow. Less than an hour and a half.


That WB actually 2 hours and 1 minute. But without credits its probably around 115 minutes. So yeah, under 2 hours. A really bad sign that WB may have butchered this thing.

----------


## Thomas Crown

A Brazilian ticket site called Ingresso.com shows a runtime of 133 minutes.

https://www.ingresso.com/rio-de-jane...iga-da-justica

Meanwhile, MovieTickets.com says the runtime is still "TBD".

https://twitter.com/MovieTickets/sta...37687411826688

----------


## MosSuperman

https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...03565196939264

----------


## FishyZombie

Upon hearing the reception of Thor Ragnarok, I am now convinced Justice League will suck. You know why? The Law of Averages, every Marvel/Dc movie so far this year has been critically acclaimed. Something is going to have to be the annual turd, the universe demands it.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> That WB actually 2 hours and 1 minute. But without credits it’s probably around 115 minutes. So yeah, under 2 hours. A really bad sign that WB may have butchered this thing.


I have no clue how my math ended up so bad. Not sure credits are included?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I have no clue how my math ended up so bad. Not sure credits are included?


Yeah, credits are included in runtimes. From the first production logo at the start to the last line of text of the credits. A movie like this, I’d automatically chop off 7-10 minutes of the official runtime if you want an estimate of the story time. 

If this runtime of 121 is true, I wonder how much of that is due to the previous plan of having JL: Part One and JL: Part Two (they scrapped this plan last year). It’s possible the Steppenwolf invasion was always supposed to be small and basically to just get the JL together, with Part Two being the big epic finale to a 2-part story. Maybe by the time they scrapped that plan the film was too far along to make it bigger. 

A lot of maybes and ifs, but it seems reasonable. It’s very strange for the team-up of DC’s pantheon to be shorter than Suicide Squad, though. I’m still holding out hope for a 2.5 hour version, or at least a longer Ultimate Cut on disc.

----------


## Carabas

> https://twitter.com/LiveLoveLupe/sta...61189724139525


Is it me of have the Amazons gotten a lot more stripperific with Snyder in control?

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Jason Momoa Announces ‘Aquaman’ Has Wrapped Filming*

----------


## Johnny

> Is it me of have the Amazons gotten a lot more stripperific with Snyder in control?


You won't see me complain.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Soubhagya

> Upon hearing the reception of Thor Ragnarok, I am now convinced Justice League will suck. You know why? The Law of Averages, every Marvel/Dc movie so far this year has been critically acclaimed. Something is going to have to be the annual turd, the universe demands it.


I hope the law does not catch up this year. Marvel has not been affected by the law. MCU after 17 films has yet to deliver a bad film. That's a lot. Yet i can't help but make a prediction. Behold i am no soothsayer but a nerd. If the movie is less then 2 hours, i say it won't be fresh. It might be not be in the range of 25-30, but it would be less then 60 at RT. If it is 170 minutes, it would be fresh. May not be 90, but 70+ seems fine. But either way it shall earn 900+. BvS was not a crowd pleaser yet got 873 mn. This one apparently has a lighter tone. Expect 900+ and depending on quality even more. 

But can we enjoy it? I am sure it has to be enjoyable unless it has been cut to pieces.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Welp. I guess good reviews and feeling good about the DCEU was fun while it lasted. If the movie is really just 2 hours I doubt it will either be coherent or feature developed characters. This is what WB gets for not making a change and making the same mistake again and again.

----------


## Lightning Rider

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...opment-a154688

After the huge success of Wonder Woman, there have been reports that Warner Bros. and DC will deemphasize the DCEU after Justice League, to focus on standalone films of our favorite heroes. However, during an interview with Total Film, J.K. Simmons talks about suiting up as Commissioner Gordon, and states that a script for a sequel to Justice League is being written:

*"Well, Commissioner Gordon wears a trench coat in every scene, so I don't know that the 'pumped up' part is going to be all that evident, especially when you're standing next to Batman! But this is the first Justice League movie - we hope - of a few. They're working on scripts for The Batman and for the next Justice League movie. It introduces my incarnation of Commissioner Gordon. I don't have a lot to do. I feel like I just dipped my toe in the water of who Commissioner Gordon will be."
*
This is sure to reassure fans who were concerned about the future of the DCEU post-Justice League. It also sounds like they hope to have a trilogy of films based around the Justice League. J.K. Simmons continues to talk about stepping into the shoes of the iconic Commissioner Gordon:

*"That's an iconic thing, and obviously there are some very big shoes that I'm attempting to step into. Some really, really wonderful actors have played that part before. It's like all of a sudden everyone in London is doing Hamlet. Now it's my turn to be Gordon."*

From what we have seen of him in the Justice League trailers, it looks like he'll give us a memorable Commissioner Gordon.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Is it me of have the Amazons gotten a lot more stripperific with Snyder in control?


I noticed that too. They'll prolly all die tragically in the opening of this film.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Yeah, credits are included in runtimes. From the first production logo at the start to the last line of text of the credits. A movie like this, I’d automatically chop off 7-10 minutes of the official runtime if you want an estimate of the story time. 
> 
> If this runtime of 121 is true, I wonder how much of that is due to the previous plan of having JL: Part One and JL: Part Two (they scrapped this plan last year). It’s possible the Steppenwolf invasion was always supposed to be small and basically to just get the JL together, with Part Two being the big epic finale to a 2-part story. Maybe by the time they scrapped that plan the film was too far along to make it bigger. 
> 
> A lot of maybes and ifs, but it seems reasonable. It’s very strange for the team-up of DC’s pantheon to be shorter than Suicide Squad, though. I’m still holding out hope for a 2.5 hour version, or at least a longer Ultimate Cut on disc.


Wait, it's not a Part One/Part Two deal anymore??

----------


## Johnny

> Wait, it's not a Part One/Part Two deal anymore??


It stopped being ever since BvS underperformed. After that, they freaked out, changed direction and sort of rewrote the movie to be a standalone story, rather than a two-parter. Apparently the whole reshuffling process was happening as the movie was filming, since principal photography started a week after the BvS premiere.

----------


## Carabas

> It stopped being ever since BvS underperformed. After that, they freaked out, changed direction and sort of rewrote the movie to be a standalone story, rather than a two-parter. Apparently the whole reshuffling process was happening as the movie was filming, since principal photography started a week after the BvS premiere.


So there is basically a zero % chance that it will be good then...

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It stopped being ever since BvS underperformed. After that, they freaked out, changed direction and sort of rewrote the movie to be a standalone story, rather than a two-parter. Apparently the whole reshuffling process was happening as the movie was filming, since principal photography started a week after the BvS premiere.


Do you have a source? I was totally under the belief the part 2 was still part of development. I don't expect Darkseid to be in this film in a meaningful way.

----------


## Robotman

> Do you have a source? I was totally under the belief the part 2 was still part of development. I don't expect Darkseid to be in this film in a meaningful way.


http://ew.com/article/2016/06/21/jus...producer-says/

WB was already reining Snyder in before they brought in Whedon.

Yeah I was hoping there would be some epic Darkseid moments but with the two movies becoming just one and now with word of a possible shorter running time I have doubts that we’ll see him. I really hope they don’t try to cram his appearance at the end of the movie.

Meanwhile, Thanos becomes the biggest and most well known villain in comic book land.

----------


## TheSupernaut

We won't know the exact runtime until the 30th, so just calm down guys. I don't see how anyone thinks a less than 2 hour movie would be acceptable in this current movie climate.

----------


## Punisher007

> Is it me of have the Amazons gotten a lot more stripperific with Snyder in control?


It's Zack Snyder vs. Patty Jenkins aesthetic-wise.  I'm really not that surprised TBH.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> I don't see how anyone thinks a less than 2 hour movie would be acceptable in this current movie climate.


I know, right! I see people saying "don't worry about the runtime, what's really important is if this movie is good". Well, this movie needs:
- show the aftermath of "Batman v Superman"
- introduce Steppenwolf and Apokolips (including the history lesson prologue)
- introduce three new main characters
- show the return of Superman
- show the aftermath of Justice League formation.

There's no way this movie can do all this in less than two hours without becoming a mess or feeling rushed. IF this rumor is true, it wil be the definitive proof that Warner Bros learned NOTHING from past mistakes.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...opment-a154688
> 
> After the huge success of Wonder Woman, there have been reports that Warner Bros. and DC will deemphasize the DCEU after Justice League, to focus on standalone films of our favorite heroes. However, during an interview with Total Film, J.K. Simmons talks about suiting up as Commissioner Gordon, and states that a script for a sequel to Justice League is being written:
> 
> *"Well, Commissioner Gordon wears a trench coat in every scene, so I don't know that the 'pumped up' part is going to be all that evident, especially when you're standing next to Batman! But this is the first Justice League movie - we hope - of a few. They're working on scripts for The Batman and for the next Justice League movie. It introduces my incarnation of Commissioner Gordon. I don't have a lot to do. I feel like I just dipped my toe in the water of who Commissioner Gordon will be."
> *
> This is sure to reassure fans who were concerned about the future of the DCEU post-Justice League. It also sounds like they hope to have a trilogy of films based around the Justice League. J.K. Simmons continues to talk about stepping into the shoes of the iconic Commissioner Gordon:
> 
> *"That's an iconic thing, and obviously there are some very big shoes that I'm attempting to step into. Some really, really wonderful actors have played that part before. It's like all of a sudden everyone in London is doing Hamlet. Now it's my turn to be Gordon."*
> ...


Why is Gordon in JL sequels at all? Not going to watch a 2hrs JL and I'm sick of 2,5 hrs movies but it looks like they do ANOTHER extended Cut which curbs my enthusiasm. If I wanted my escapism to be dumb I'd watch Transformers

----------


## TheSupernaut

> I know, right! I see people saying "don't worry about the runtime, what's really important is if this movie is good". Well, this movie needs:
> - show the aftermath of "Batman v Superman"
> - introduce Steppenwolf and Apokolips (including the history lesson prologue)
> - introduce three new main characters
> - show the return of Superman
> - show the aftermath of Justice League formation.
> 
> There's no way this movie can do all this in less than two hours without becoming a mess or feeling rushed. IF this rumor is true, it wil be the definitive proof that Warner Bros learned NOTHING from past mistakes.


At least then we can count on an "Ultimate Edition" of justice league for home video.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/creepypuppet/sta...79011247681536

James Wan confirms principal photography wrap on Aquaman

----------


## Elmo

> It stopped being ever since BvS underperformed. After that, they freaked out, changed direction and sort of rewrote the movie to be a standalone story, rather than a two-parter. Apparently the whole reshuffling process was happening as the movie was filming, since principal photography started a week after the BvS premiere.


That's literally not true at all. The response toward BvS was never a deciding factor in the outcome of Justice League and that's a direct quote from Charles Roven. Besides, it didn't underperform, it was a box office smash and set a world record for the biggest opening for a comic book movie ever. They cancelled JL part 2 before BvS ever came out.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I wouldn't say BvS underperformed (Green Lantern, now that was a DC film that underperformed) but it is arguable that it didn't perform as well as it could've given it was the film that teamed up two of the biggest superheroes for the first time - IIRC it did have a pretty steep drop second weekend.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I know, right! I see people saying "don't worry about the runtime, what's really important is if this movie is good". Well, this movie needs:
> - show the aftermath of "Batman v Superman"
> - introduce Steppenwolf and Apokolips (including the history lesson prologue)
> - introduce three new main characters
> - show the return of Superman
> - show the aftermath of Justice League formation.
> 
> There's no way this movie can do all this in less than two hours without becoming a mess or feeling rushed. IF this rumor is true, it wil be the definitive proof that Warner Bros learned NOTHING from past mistakes.


1) Aftermath of BvS has already been show in bits like the end of BvS, Suicide Squad and the Lois scenes in JL seem to continue that (don't see why that needs more *5 minutes*)
2) History lesson will be brief like Hippolyta's story of the Greek Gods and Amazons in Wonder Woman (*4-5 minutes tops*). Give another *5 minutes* for Steppenwolf's intro sequence.
3) The three new characters will be introduced when they are approached to be recruited, which should not only introduce audiences to them but also display their dynamics with Batman/Wonder Woman (don't see why each recruitment scene needs to last much longer than *5 minutes each*).
4) We don't how the return of Superman will be handled but I suspect it will be in the heat of the battle, which is part of the climax itself
5) Those "happy ending" aftermaths barely require *3 minutes* (look at the end of the first Avengers movies), much less 5 minutes.

All of the stuff you mentioned may come in under *45 minutes*. With a 121 minute runtime, they could cover all of that and still have *76 minutes* to spare.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## golgi

Empire on the Box office forums saw Justice League, apparently. He said the movie is good and it will open huge. Not surprising on the box office front.

https://heroichollywood.com/justice-...tracking-well/




> Umberto Gonzalez ✔@elmayimbe
> Take with a grain of salt till official tracking drops next week. Bros I know who cover WB tell me early tracking on #JusticeLeague is good!

----------


## Confuzzled

> Empire on the Box office forums saw Justice League, apparently. He said the movie is good and it will open huge. Not surprising on the box office front.


I think that was the same person who said Wonder Woman was a "mess" and barely better than her DCEU predecessors, which caused a mild stir on Twitter before the official critical embargo lifted and the critics had a vastly differing opinion.

So if a non-fan like him found Justice League to be outright good, then that's pretty reassuring news indeed.  :Smile:  

Also great to hear about the box office tracking.

----------


## golgi

> I think that was the same person who said Wonder Woman was a "mess" and barely better than her DCEU predecessors, which caused a mild stir on Twitter before the official critical embargo lifted and the critics had a vastly differing opinion.
> 
> So if a non-fan like him found Justice League to be outright good, then that's pretty reassuring news indeed.  
> 
> Also great to hear about the box office tracking.


That is correct. He didn't like Wonder Woman all that much. However, he DID predict that it will be DCEU's biggest hit, and he was pretty much correct on the domestic front.

----------


## Lokimaru

I think the Extended Universe should go like this: Man of Steel, BvS and Justice League being the Superman trilogy. The Batman, The Brave and the Bold, and Justice League 2 being the Batman Trilogy. Flashpoint, Worlds Finest and Justice League 3 being the Flash Trilogy and so on. All stand alone movies like Shazam, Gotham City Sirens and Aquaman taking place in between the main films like Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad, to give depth to the World.

----------


## Johnny

> That's literally not true at all. The response toward BvS was never a deciding factor in the outcome of Justice League and that's a direct quote from Charles Roven. Besides, it didn't underperform, it was a box office smash and set a world record for the biggest opening for a comic book movie ever. They cancelled JL part 2 before BvS ever came out.


There's no excuse why a movie featuring the two most popular superheroes in history won't break a billion. The BvS reception was the reason they changed direction. If BvS made about as much money as The Avengers did, I doubt Geoff Johns would be running their movies now. As far as Roven is concerned, it's called damage control. If you want to believe everything producers and studio executives say publicly, be my guest.

----------


## Johnny

> I wouldn't say BvS underperformed (Green Lantern, now that was a DC film that underperformed) but it is arguable that it didn't perform as well as it could've given it was the film that teamed up two of the biggest superheroes for the first time - IIRC it did have a pretty steep drop second weekend.


BvS certainly wasn't a box office bomb or anything like that. "Underperformed" as in performed below expectations. 

Green Lantern's performance is the reason the idiots blacklisted GL from Justice League, BvS performance is the reason for the course correction. People can believe whatever they want of course and perhaps it's a moot point now with less than a month before the movie hits.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> BvS certainly wasn't a box office bomb or anything like that. "Underperformed" as in performed below expectations. 
> 
> Green Lantern's performance is the reason the idiots blacklisted GL from Justice League, BvS performance is the reason for the course correction. People can believe whatever they want of course and perhaps it's a moot point now with less than a month before the movie hits.


No arguments from me. The studio heads panic even when they make a sizable profit on a film like BvS, because they need more money to make up for the other films that bombed.

----------


## Elmo

> There's no excuse why a movie featuring the two most popular superheroes in history won't break a billion. The BvS reception was the reason they changed direction. If BvS made about as much money as The Avengers did, I doubt Geoff Johns would be running their movies now. As far as Roven is concerned, it's called damage control. If you want to believe everything producers and studio executives say publicly, be my guest.


Except it wasn't damage control. He was asked the question in an interview MONTHS after BvS came out. WB made no response to the reception to BvS. In fact Roven was VERY humble about it. He says they're looking at the current climate of films to see how they can adapt and continue creating beautiful and artistic films for the masses. 

The movie was a major success, broke a world record. It exceeded their expectations. People are so high on the Marvel wave that they think every superhero movie has to make a billion to be a success and if it doesn't than it's a massive failure. Well it wasn't a failure, no matter how much you wanna tell yourself that, it was not. And either way, JL part 2 was put on hold before BvS came out, so your argument doesn't even matter.

----------


## Johnny

> Except it wasn't damage control. He was asked the question in an interview MONTHS after BvS came out. WB made no response to the reception to BvS. In fact Roven was VERY humble about it. He says they're looking at the current climate of films to see how they can adapt and continue creating beautiful and artistic films for the masses. 
> 
> The movie was a major success, broke a world record. It exceeded their expectations. People are so high on the Marvel wave that they think every superhero movie has to make a billion to be a success and if it doesn't than it's a massive failure. Well it wasn't a failure, no matter how much you wanna tell yourself that, it was not. And either way, JL part 2 was put on hold before BvS came out, so your argument doesn't even matter.


What expectations did it exceed? A movie that cost as much as it did having an 81% second weekend drop isn't "exceeding expectations", it's doing the opposite. I don't care about "the Marvel wave", I judge BvS on the fact that it was about Batman and Superman and dropped like a stone. I never claimed it was a "failure" or a "bomb" or a "flop", I said it performed "below expectations", which it did.

Nope, JL2 was certainly not put on hold before BvS came out, we started hearing about WB's reshuffling after JL was already filming. And if my argument really "doesn't even matter" why respond? Go back to your La La Land that everything somehow turned out as WB had originally planned.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Well, the press has now caught wind of the running time and the skepticism train is picking up steam.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/justice...143605905.html

----------


## manofsteel1979

To be fair, I do seem to remember rumblings that the idea of doing JL as a two part event was being reconsidered before BvS came out. No doubt, the reaction to BvS may have cemented that direction, but I think rethinking JL started to happen with Snyder himself. After all, he's the one who brought Weadon in to bounce ideas off of.

----------


## Johnny

> To be fair, I do seem to remember rumblings that the idea of doing JL as a two part event was being reconsidered before BvS came out. No doubt, the reaction to BvS may have cemented that direction, but I think rethinking JL started to happen with Snyder himself. After all, he's the one who brought Weadon in to bounce ideas off of.


From what I recall, they said Part 2 was put on hold in order to supposedly fast-track The Batman, but that was after JL had began filming and I think shortly before Ben stepped down as director, though I could be wrong about the latter.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I think the Extended Universe should go like this: Man of Steel, BvS and Justice League being the Superman trilogy. The Batman, The Brave and the Bold, and Justice League 2 being the Batman Trilogy. Flashpoint, Worlds Finest and Justice League 3 being the Flash Trilogy and so on. All stand alone movies like Shazam, Gotham City Sirens and Aquaman taking place in between the main films like Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad, to give depth to the World.


I really like this idea. It's a very cool and different way to do character arcs while all leading to penultimate third acts.

And regarding the JL Part Two stuff, I vividly remember them coming out and saying the plan was scrapped and that JL was going to be its own story with no part two. It will have a beginning and end, although that end *may* lead into a sequel, so to speak. This was all when BvS came out and JL had just begun shooting. So, not sure what to believe anymore. 

DC needs a PR mouth for their films, very badly. After JL, we really need to see a slate, or need them to come out and say "there is no slate. The universe is only loosely connected as each film from this point will be its own, etc."

----------


## Wandering_Wand

BTW, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm going dark starting tomorrow. No more trailers, no more looking for news, etc. outside of general info. I will be awaiting the official run time, but that's it. 

I went dark for Wonder Woman and ended up being very surprised with the movie (I learned my lesson after BvS's trailers and promotions).

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think that was the same person who said Wonder Woman was a "mess" and barely better than her DCEU predecessors, which caused a mild stir on Twitter before the official critical embargo lifted and the critics had a vastly differing opinion.
> 
> So if a non-fan like him found Justice League to be outright good, then that's pretty reassuring news indeed.  
> 
> Also great to hear about the box office tracking.


Or, maybe, he's a fan of the Quippers- I mean the Avengers, and JL is more like that.

----------


## golgi

People should really take a closer look at the earnings of Suicide Squad and BVS before they say it, "bombed".

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...K4NIv3brakSMSE

*How DC Universe Movies Are More Successful Than You Think
*

----------


## Carabas

> People should really take a closer look at the earnings of Suicide Squad and BVS before they say it, "bombed".


WB has its own standards as to what is a bomb and what isn't.

----------


## golgi

> WB has its own standards as to what is a bomb and what isn't.


I highly doubt that WB thought BVS bombed. Underperformed? Yes, but not bombed.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I highly doubt that WB thought BVS bombed. Underperformed? Yes, but not bombed.


Agreed. Regardless of how anybody defines it, the movie didn't bomb.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Agreed. Regardless of how anybody defines it, the movie didn't bomb.


Financially it did fine. For the first ever movie featuring Superman, Batman, and WW together, it should have done much better financially but I don't call it a financial bomb. It did fine, financially.

But when people talk about box office receipts they inevitably leave out the fact that it was a HUGE critical flop. If anyone thinks DC/WB doesn't care about that, they're wrong. I'm sure their disappointment is leavened by the decent box office but the first movie with Batman and Superman together shouldn't have been controversial. It was a sure-fire grand-slam that turned into perhaps the greatest critical failure (vis-a-vis expectations) in all of DC Comics cinematic history.

BvS was supposed to leave audiences DYING to see the next chapter. It didn't. It divided DC fans right down the middle and critics had no reason to sugarcoat what was a disastrously dull film. It failed incredibly badly as the true launch to the DCEU (or whatever they call it) and that's not even up for debate.

They've twisted themselves into a pretzel trying to correct for the Synder influence on how people think about DC movies, even in Snyder's own film, JL.

If JL feels like a Zack Snyder superhero movie, I feel like I can absolutely guarantee it will force a total course correction. They're already making one and Snyder is already out of DC movies going forward. He went from being the boss of the whole deal as directors go to being unceremoniously kicked out of DC's future movie plans. And he did all that with one terrible movie that had no business being less than great. BvS.

WRT box office, you're right; it didn't bomb.

WRT everything else, you're wrong. It bombed like crazy.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Agreed. Regardless of how anybody defines it, the movie didn't bomb.


Agreed BvS underperformed as in it didn't make what WB thought it would when developing but in no way is it a bomb they made a nice profit. Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets was a bomb.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Nevermind, rethought it.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Source? 
> 
> I was an audience member. So were the many non-comics reading friends of mine that I took to see it...it left us all wanting to see the next chapter, and we didn’t find it dull at all. The problem with internet boards like this is everyone wants to say things and have them accepted as fact, when in reality all we can do is report our own experiences. Critics hated it, THAT is a fact. And yes, it divided DC fans. I don’t believe it divided a general public who is force-fed so many superhero films a year that they’re about to pop. 
> 
> I’ve personally never met someone in real life who disliked the film, but that’s my own experience. You’ve obviously had an opposite experience, which is equally as valid as mine. But I think everyone should take a step back and avoid saying things like “it was disastrously dull...failed to set up the DCEU...not up for debate.” Just as we should avoid the opposite end of that spectrum as well.


I think people tend to forget that their opinion isn't universal. I too haven't talked to or met anyone that outright hated MOS or BvS other than on comics Internet forums. The worst I've heard said is " it was ok. Could have been better." Most I've talked with seem to have liked it. However, I understand that is just anecdotal. 

What is fact is that  lot of people apparently liked it enough to do almost 900 million and be a top seller on DVD/Blu-ray. Could it have done better. Sure. But to call it a flop by any measure other than critical acclaim or lack thereof, is reaching. It was a box office success and did decently with most non critics and non comics nerds.if it didn't and was the unmitigated disaster some seem to want to characterize it as, it wouldn't have made anywhere north of 450 million, if that. It fell off steeply from opening weekend, but still chugged along and made money beyond the first weekend totals. 

It was a block buster Movie which did Blockbuster numbers. Just not as high as some assumed or hoped.

----------


## ironman2978

> So they can do a proper Aquaman costume...
> 
> 
> 
> They just chose not to...?





> It actually looks a lot like Momoa's costume, just with the gold in the right spot instead of green.





> I bet they're saving "proper" Aquaman costume  for his solo, when he becomes a king. His JL costume probably some random armor, just like his "pitchfork".





> Exact sentiments lol. Looks badass too


Honestly looking at that costume some more, It probably is Momoa's costume only brighter and brand new, while when Momoa gets it, it probably is heavily aged where the gold becomes more greenish/bronzish in color. (That's my problem, or interest in the costume, in some shots, the main body of the armor looks bronze, others gold while most of the posters depict his body being a greenish color with gold sides)


 I think that Momoa gets his outfit from somewhere with the King's outfit(similar to the New 52 origin of the costume)

----------


## ironman2978

But I do admire how the armor takes elements of the New 52 and  just added different elements of it  to flesh out the template design, and make it feel more original to Aquaman's story, as opposed to simple just one of Jim Lee's hero factory designs with the New 52, same with Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, etc imo.

[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## Confuzzled

Momoa should lose those contacts. Not working for me. His natural eye color looks like it would suit a half-human half-Atlantean much better.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Or, maybe, he's a fan of the Quippers- I mean the Avengers, and JL is more like that.


And the guy who first revealed the 121 minute runtime on Twitter claims to know a DCEU fan who watched the film and didn't like the Joss Whedon dialogue. So it just goes to show how trying to appeal to one crowd may turn away another one.

I think Wonder Woman found the perfect balance of humor, drama, darkness and epic though. It was lighter than MoS and BvS but went to much darker places than MCU films which for me gave it a more emotional impact. It also retained a greater sense of innocence than the more cynical and overtly self-aware MCU.  I think that's the tone DC Films should adopt.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> WRT box office, you're right; it didn't bomb.
> 
> WRT everything else, you're wrong. It bombed like crazy.


What am I wrong about now?! I never said it did well critically - obviously that would be silly (though my gut says it will do much better there as time goes by, FWIW). I even agreed that it underperformed, which I have said *countless* times on this site. In the post you replied to, I only stated that it didn't bomb at the box office, which it didn't. Did I type something subconsciously that I can't read on my screen?  :Wink:

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Welsh actor Julian Lewis Jones has confirmed himself as this Atlantean king, possibly Atlan through an Instagram post

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Aquaman costume isn't bothering as much as that damn trident! Why isn't it gold? I'm thinking it's not the real Trident he uses..

----------


## Wandering_Wand

It’s looking like JL is going to be 121 minutes. Still no official confirmations, but everything is leaning that way.

----------


## Punisher007

That really makes me nervous honestly. You have a bunch of characters who haven't really even been properly introduced yet, villains that need set up, Superman needs to come back, etc. And you're going to try and do that in only two hours?

_The Avengers_ was like 2 hrs 20 minutes, so was _Wonder Woman_. _The Dark Knight_ was over two and a half hours, etc. And none of them had as many characters or were as big and "epic" a scale as this movie seems to be?

Makes little sense imo.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> And the guy who first revealed the 121 minute runtime on Twitter claims to know a DCEU fan who watched the film and didn't like the Joss Whedon dialogue. So it just goes to show how trying to appeal to one crowd may turn away another one.
> 
> I think Wonder Woman found the perfect balance of humor, drama, darkness and epic though. It was lighter than MoS and BvS but went to much darker places than MCU films which for me gave it a more emotional impact. It also retained a greater sense of innocence than the more cynical and overtly self-aware MCU.  I think that's the tone DC Films should adopt.


Yeah I think WW hit a great balance.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_Empire Cinemas: JUSTICE LEAGUE We can officially announce the running time is confirmed as 01:59:53!_

https://twitter.com/EmpireCinemas/st...13823587762177

----------


## Hilden B. Lade



----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think Wonder Woman found the perfect balance of humor, drama, darkness and epic though. It was lighter than MoS and BvS but went to much darker places than MCU films which for me gave it a more emotional impact. It also retained a greater sense of innocence than the more cynical and overtly self-aware MCU.  I think that's the tone DC Films should adopt.


I agree, Confuzzled. I know some people have stated it was following the MCU template, but it really wasn't. It did its own thing and did it quite well, IMO.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> _Empire Cinemas: JUSTICE LEAGUE We can officially announce the running time is confirmed as 01:59:53!_
> 
> https://twitter.com/EmpireCinemas/st...13823587762177


I'll definitely wait to purchase the inevitable extended cut Blu-ray disc in the future.  :Smile:

----------


## Carabas

> I'll definitely wait to purchase the inevitable extended cut Blu-ray disc in the future.


If there even is one. Because Whedon has never done these and Snyder is out of the picture.

----------


## Lightning Rider

More stills

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If there even is one. Because Whedon has never done these and Snyder is out of the picture.


True, but there's always a first time for everything.

----------


## manofsteel1979

Not quite two hours...Huh.

Probably for the first time I'm truly a little worried about this movie.

However, I will reserve judgement until reviews of people I trust and of course my own eyes ( as I'm going to see it regardless) before I panic. Who knows? Weadon and Snyder may have threaded the needle.

As long as Superman is well served by this movie, I'll I'll be pleased.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> As long as Superman is well served by this movie, I'll I'll be pleased.


They cut Superman from the movie to make it shorter.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Lightning Rider

While the run time concerns me there were definitely times during Wonder Woman, widely considered the best of the DCEU films so far, where I felt it was dragging and was taking too long to get to a turning point.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That really makes me nervous honestly. You have a bunch of characters who haven't really even been properly introduced yet, villains that need set up, Superman needs to come back, etc. And you're going to try and do that in only two hours?
> 
> _The Avengers_ was like 2 hrs 20 minutes, so was _Wonder Woman_. _The Dark Knight_ was over two and a half hours, etc. And none of them had as many characters or were as big and "epic" a scale as this movie seems to be?
> 
> Makes little sense imo.


This is pretty much how I feel. This also explains why they've barely shown anything in the trailers, besides mostly the same scenes from different angles. 

So there's only 3 action scenarios: the prologue, brief Atlantis scuffle, the tunnel fight, and the red sky fight.

Then they've gotta introduce, and make us care about, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman. 

Then they've gotta make us take the villain seriously.

Then they've gotta coherently revive Supes, and make us care about his obvious revival, and the "new" him.

Honestly, this all screams Ultimate Edition.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> This is pretty much how I feel. This also explains why they've barely shown anything in the trailers, besides mostly the same scenes from different angles. 
> 
> So there's only 3 action scenarios: the prologue, brief Atlantis scuffle, the tunnel fight, and the red sky fight.
> 
> Then they've gotta introduce, and make us care about, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman. 
> 
> Then they've gotta make us take the villain seriously.
> 
> Then they've gotta coherently revive Supes, and make us care about his obvious revival, and the "new" him.
> ...


It appears they cut out all the world-building stuff.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> They cut Superman from the movie to make it shorter.


I honestly wouldn't put it past Warner's after the hatchet job that was the theatrical version of BvS.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> I honestly wouldn't put it past Warner's after the hatchet job that was the theatrical version of BvS.


From what I'm reading, it seems they did a miracle this time. Superman is considered the highlight of the movie or one of the highlights along with Flash.

#You'll believe a Man can Smile

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> From what I'm reading, it seems they did a miracle this time. Superman is considered the highlight of the movie or one of the highlights along with Flash.
> 
> #You'll believe a Man can Smile


#ManOfSmiles  :Wink:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> #ManOfSmiles


Whedon's reshoots of Superman, basically.  :Wink:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It appears they cut out all the world-building stuff.


That’s what I’m thinking. It was rumored a long time ago that Lex & Iris had been cut, so I’m going to assume we won’t see them. I’m betting Barry’s visit with Henry will be cut as well. Unless Mera plays a big role in the plot, I also wouldn’t be surprised to see her part cut to a basic cameo. Same thing with the football scenes for Cyborg. 

None of these things are necessarily bad, though. For example, Iris & Henry Allen would obviously help to introduce Barry to a general audience, but is it actually needed? If they keep in the entirety of Bruce’s visit to Barry’s loft, the general audience will learn that he is a tech geek (based on his setup of monitors & tv’s), awkward (his dialogue with Bruce), his basic powerset, and he’s lonely (“I need...friends...”). Granted, we comic readers know there is more to Barry Allen than these generalities I’ve listed, but as far as an audience is concerned that should be plenty I think (we also learn more about him later, with the “I’ve never done battle” stuff). 

Basically, think of Hawkeye in The Avengers. I’m a DC guy, and have read VERY little Marvel. So I’m a good example to use. I knew of Hawkeye, but I knew nothing about him other than he is Marvel’s Green Arrow. But the movie told me what I needed, and I was satisfied - I learned he doesn’t miss, he has a quick wit, and he and Romanoff go way back. And really, Romanoff was similar - IM2 told me she works for Shield. Avengers told me Clint had “saved her” years ago. The characters really didn’t need much more than that. The argument can be made that sudiences need a reason to care about the characters, and cutting out the world building stuff could harm that, but I’m not entirely sure that general audiences put as much stock in that stuff for superhero movies as they do for other, more serious fare (I have no facts for this, just a gut feeling). I think they just want to be entertained by superhero films, and when we all moan that a hero wasn’t characterized correctly, regular folks don’t care as long as they are entertained. 

Sorry for rambling. I think this movie can work just fine without as much character building because other films have done it, and have been successful. Look at Fox’s X-Men...we learned a lot about Logan & Rogue, but nothing much about the rest of the team. Why was Cyclops the “leader”? Jean has telekinesis and is dating Cyclops, but we don’t know anything else about her. X-men had a large ensemble team, with very little info about most of them, and audiences ate it up. It can be done, and has been done...the question is, will JL be able to pull it off? We’re about to find out. 

I think this film still has the possibility of being fantastic, even at only 2 hours, as long as the cuts are not at the expense of plot. I loved BvS in theaters, but was willing to admit the plot suffered in many areas. The Ultimate Cut, imo, fixed all of that. Someone in here mentioned that the problem with BvS wasn’t that WB cut it down, but that they made poor choices on what to keep in. As long as JL’s plot isn’t affected, I think everything can still turn out fine. Just under 2 hours can still work as long as the plot is coherent (it’s an alien invasion, so it doesn’t need to be Shakespeare), and the team interactions are gold. That’s what sells these movies anyway, I think. 

Like someone mentioned, we’ve really only seen a few action set pieces in the trailers, so I’m hoping this means there is a good amount of Superman-related plot. It may be a pipedream, but it would make sense as to why the trailers have been extremely short on story. They’ve focused only on team building & an invasion, but trailers often give you a sense of story beats & we haven’t gotten that.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> That’s what I’m thinking. It was rumored a long time ago that Lex & Iris had been cut, so I’m going to assume we won’t see them. I’m betting Barry’s visit with Henry will be cut as well. Unless Mera plays a big role in the plot, I also wouldn’t be surprised to see her part cut to a basic cameo. Same thing with the football scenes for Cyborg. 
> 
> None of these things are necessarily bad, though. For example, Iris & Henry Allen would obviously help to introduce Barry to a general audience, but is it actually needed? If they keep in the entirety of Bruce’s visit to Barry’s loft, the general audience will learn that he is a tech geek (based on his setup of monitors & tv’s), awkward (his dialogue with Bruce), his basic powerset, and he’s lonely (“I need...friends...”). Granted, we comic readers know there is more to Barry Allen than these generalities I’ve listed, but as far as an audience is concerned that should be plenty I think (we also learn more about him later, with the “I’ve never done battle” stuff). 
> 
> Basically, think of Hawkeye in The Avengers. I’m a DC guy, and have read VERY little Marvel. So I’m a good example to use. I knew of Hawkeye, but I knew nothing about him other than he is Marvel’s Green Arrow. But the movie told me what I needed, and I was satisfied - I learned he doesn’t miss, he has a quick wit, and he and Romanoff go way back. And really, Romanoff was similar - IM2 told me she works for Shield. Avengers told me Clint had “saved her” years ago. The characters really didn’t need much more than that. The argument can be made that sudiences need a reason to care about the characters, and cutting out the world building stuff could harm that, but I’m not entirely sure that general audiences put as much stock in that stuff for superhero movies as they do for other, more serious fare (I have no facts for this, just a gut feeling). I think they just want to be entertained by superhero films, and when we all moan that a hero wasn’t characterized correctly, regular folks don’t care as long as they are entertained. 
> 
> Sorry for rambling. I think this movie can work just fine without as much character building because other films have done it, and have been successful. Look at Fox’s X-Men...we learned a lot about Logan & Rogue, but nothing much about the rest of the team. Why was Cyclops the “leader”? Jean has telekinesis and is dating Cyclops, but we don’t know anything else about her. X-men had a large ensemble team, with very little info about most of them, and audiences ate it up. It can be done, and has been done...the question is, will JL be able to pull it off? We’re about to find out. 
> 
> I think this film still has the possibility of being fantastic, even at only 2 hours, as long as the cuts are not at the expense of plot. I loved BvS in theaters, but was willing to admit the plot suffered in many areas. The Ultimate Cut, imo, fixed all of that. Someone in here mentioned that the problem with BvS wasn’t that WB cut it down, but that they made poor choices on what to keep in. As long as JL’s plot isn’t affected, I think everything can still turn out fine. Just under 2 hours can still work as long as the plot is coherent (it’s an alien invasion, so it doesn’t need to be Shakespeare), and the team interactions are gold. That’s what sells these movies anyway, I think. 
> ...


I think you could be right and explained it well. The low volume but organic high-information character scenes we got for the lesser players in the MCU allowed them to be established seamlessly. 

I'm also hoping for tons of Superman.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Not quite two hours...Huh.
> 
> Probably for the first time I'm truly a little worried about this movie.
> 
> However, I will reserve judgement until reviews of people I trust and of course my own eyes ( as I'm going to see it regardless) before I panic. Who knows? Weadon and Snyder may have threaded the needle.
> 
> As long as Superman is well served by this movie, I'll I'll be pleased.


Guardians of the Galaxy was 122 mins and had to introduce twice the number of characters that JL has to introduce.  From what I've heard from screenings, when it comes to the newest characters, Flash and Aquaman are the break-out hits, whereas Cyborg is the one who is the most fleshed-out.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Guardians of the Galaxy was 122 mins and had to introduce twice the number of characters that JL has to introduce.  From what I've heard from screenings, when it comes to the newest characters, Flash and Aquaman are the break-out hits, whereas Cyborg is the one who is the most fleshed-out.


Cyborg probably needs the most development.

----------


## Calvinr

> Cyborg probably needs the most development.


Yeah that makes sense, in terms of the plot he has a mother box inside him so I can understand why cyborg would have to maybe be fleshed out a bit more.

----------


## Punisher007

> That’s what I’m thinking. It was rumored a long time ago that Lex & Iris had been cut, so I’m going to assume we won’t see them. I’m betting Barry’s visit with Henry will be cut as well. Unless Mera plays a big role in the plot, I also wouldn’t be surprised to see her part cut to a basic cameo. Same thing with the football scenes for Cyborg. 
> 
> None of these things are necessarily bad, though. For example, Iris & Henry Allen would obviously help to introduce Barry to a general audience, but is it actually needed? If they keep in the entirety of Bruce’s visit to Barry’s loft, the general audience will learn that he is a tech geek (based on his setup of monitors & tv’s), awkward (his dialogue with Bruce), his basic powerset, and he’s lonely (“I need...friends...”). Granted, we comic readers know there is more to Barry Allen than these generalities I’ve listed, but as far as an audience is concerned that should be plenty I think (we also learn more about him later, with the “I’ve never done battle” stuff). 
> 
> Basically, think of Hawkeye in The Avengers. I’m a DC guy, and have read VERY little Marvel. So I’m a good example to use. I knew of Hawkeye, but I knew nothing about him other than he is Marvel’s Green Arrow. But the movie told me what I needed, and I was satisfied - I learned he doesn’t miss, he has a quick wit, and he and Romanoff go way back. And really, Romanoff was similar - IM2 told me she works for Shield. Avengers told me Clint had “saved her” years ago. The characters really didn’t need much more than that. The argument can be made that sudiences need a reason to care about the characters, and cutting out the world building stuff could harm that, but I’m not entirely sure that general audiences put as much stock in that stuff for superhero movies as they do for other, more serious fare (I have no facts for this, just a gut feeling). I think they just want to be entertained by superhero films, and when we all moan that a hero wasn’t characterized correctly, regular folks don’t care as long as they are entertained. 
> 
> Sorry for rambling. I think this movie can work just fine without as much character building because other films have done it, and have been successful. Look at Fox’s X-Men...we learned a lot about Logan & Rogue, but nothing much about the rest of the team. Why was Cyclops the “leader”? Jean has telekinesis and is dating Cyclops, but we don’t know anything else about her. X-men had a large ensemble team, with very little info about most of them, and audiences ate it up. It can be done, and has been done...the question is, will JL be able to pull it off? We’re about to find out. 
> 
> I think this film still has the possibility of being fantastic, even at only 2 hours, as long as the cuts are not at the expense of plot. I loved BvS in theaters, but was willing to admit the plot suffered in many areas. The Ultimate Cut, imo, fixed all of that. Someone in here mentioned that the problem with BvS wasn’t that WB cut it down, but that they made poor choices on what to keep in. As long as JL’s plot isn’t affected, I think everything can still turn out fine. Just under 2 hours can still work as long as the plot is coherent (it’s an alien invasion, so it doesn’t need to be Shakespeare), and the team interactions are gold. That’s what sells these movies anyway, I think. 
> ...


Eh I'd argue (as someone who loved Avengers overall) that Hawkeye was one of the weak points.  And most people, even those who like it overall, seem to agree.  He got thr shaft (no pun intended) in terms of actual character.  Even Whedon himself on the commentary track said that he kind of felt bad about it (which is probably why Hawkeye got such an expanded role in AOU).

And as for X-Men, one of the big complaints there is that the other X-Men don't get nearly enough development either.

Also this is supposed to be an event, the culmination of something.  I don't it to feel like the payoff doesn't match the buildup.

----------


## Punisher007

> Guardians of the Galaxy was 122 mins and had to introduce twice the number of characters that JL has to introduce.  From what I've heard from screenings, when it comes to the newest characters, Flash and Aquaman are the break-out hits, whereas Cyborg is the one who is the most fleshed-out.


GOTG wasn't the culmination of anything, nor were expectations nearly as high as here.

----------


## Soubhagya

> #ManOfSmiles




Sorry couldn't help myself!  :Wink:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Eh I'd argue (as someone who loved Avengers overall) that Hawkeye was one of the weak points.  And most people, even those who like it overall, seem to agree.  He got thr shaft (no pun intended) in terms of actual character.  Even Whedon himself on the commentary track said that he kind of felt bad about it (which is probably why Hawkeye got such an expanded role in AOU).
> 
> And as for X-Men, one of the big complaints there is that the other X-Men don't get nearly enough development either.
> 
> Also this is supposed to be an event, the culmination of something.  I don't it to feel like the payoff doesn't match the buildup.


I agree that Hawkeye didn’t have much character in the Avengers, and was one of the weaker links, but the point of my post was that he didn’t require it to make the movie work. The movie didn’t need the character stuff for him because, for that specific story, it told you everything you needed to know. Now, if Hawkeye had given a rousing speech to get Black Widow into the fight, as he did for Scarlet Witch in AoU, it probably wouldn’t have worked at all because the film doesn’t give you enough for that sort of scene. It works in Ultron because they gave us his family life & more insight into the risks he takes. 

I think they can completely cut out all of the Flash world building stuff (Iris, Henry, dead Mom, even the Speed Force) and he will still be “introduced” just fine to the GA. A lonely, socially awkward nerd gets struck by lightning, becomes the Fastest Man Alive, and finds friends is all we need for this specific story, imo. Save the other stuff for a”smaller” film (Flashpoint notwithstanding, anyway). Introductions, by most definitions, are brief; if you introduce me to your sister, nobody requires my life story right up front in order to like or dislike me :P 

As for X-men, the only people I’ve heard complain about the characters not getting enough setup are comic book fans (not saying these people don’t exist, just that critics & audiences didn’t seem to mind much). Who is Scott Summers? He’s the guy who shoots lasers from his eyes. ‘Nuff said for the movie they were making, and a lot of viewers agreed. Now, if we’re talking about not enough development as the sequels rolled on, then I would absolutely agree. The sequels were “Wolverine & aquaintences”, and lack of development of anyone else over the course of the series was a huge issue. But in the first film? Nah. You can only focus on so much before the viewers’ eyes start to glaze over.

----------


## BatmanJones

> What am I wrong about now?! I never said it did well critically - obviously that would be silly (though my gut says it will do much better there as time goes by, FWIW). I even agreed that it underperformed, which I have said *countless* times on this site. In the post you replied to, I only stated that it didn't bomb at the box office, which it didn't. Did I type something subconsciously that I can't read on my screen?


Not trying to argue or be argumentative. I'm sorry if my last post offended you. I was replying to the idea (which I think was clear in your post) that DC didn't consider BvS a bomb. I think it's more complicated than that as I posted. No offense intended.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Not trying to argue or be argumentative. I'm sorry if my last post offended you. I was replying to the idea (which I think was clear in your post) that DC didn't consider BvS a bomb. I think it's more complicated than that as I posted. No offense intended.


Actually I just re-read the post I was replying to. It was a short one and went like this (italics added):

"_Regardless of how anybody defines it,_ the movie didn't bomb."

If you'd simply said "It didn't bomb" I probably wouldn't have replied, out of posting the same thing again and again fatigue.

When you said "regardless of how anybody defines it," I felt compelled to correct that statement because it just isn't so.

Saying "You're wrong" was rude of me and I apologize for it but I think my reasons for disagreeing were sound.

----------


## BatmanJones

> What am I wrong about now?! I never said it did well critically - obviously that would be silly (though my gut says it will do much better there as time goes by, FWIW). I even agreed that it underperformed, which I have said *countless* times on this site. In the post you replied to, I only stated that it didn't bomb at the box office, which it didn't. Did I type something subconsciously that I can't read on my screen?


After this I'll shut up. I think if you'd quoted my whole post I wouldn't have come off as such a jackass. You opted to post only the end of it, leaving out all the reasons I wrote that end.

You said, "Regardless of how anybody defines it, the movie didn't bomb."

I replied with a lengthy post which you later quoted only the end of. I think if you consider my full post and not just the end of it, you'll find it's a relatively well reasoned response to your brief statement. This was my full response to "Regardless of how anybody defines it, the movie didn't bomb.":

_Financially it did fine. For the first ever movie featuring Superman, Batman, and WW together, it should have done much better financially but I don't call it a financial bomb. It did fine, financially.

But when people talk about box office receipts they inevitably leave out the fact that it was a HUGE critical flop. If anyone thinks DC/WB doesn't care about that, they're wrong. I'm sure their disappointment is leavened by the decent box office but the first movie with Batman and Superman together shouldn't have been controversial. It was a sure-fire grand-slam that turned into perhaps the greatest critical failure (vis-a-vis expectations) in all of DC Comics cinematic history.

BvS was supposed to leave audiences DYING to see the next chapter. It didn't. It divided DC fans right down the middle and critics had no reason to sugarcoat what was a disastrously dull film. It failed incredibly badly as the true launch to the DCEU (or whatever they call it) and that's not even up for debate.

They've twisted themselves into a pretzel trying to correct for the Synder influence on how people think about DC movies, even in Snyder's own film, JL.

If JL feels like a Zack Snyder superhero movie, I feel like I can absolutely guarantee it will force a total course correction. They're already making one and Snyder is already out of DC movies going forward. He went from being the boss of the whole deal as directors go to being unceremoniously kicked out of DC's future movie plans. And he did all that with one terrible movie that had no business being less than great. BvS.

WRT box office, you're right; it didn't bomb.

WRT everything else, you're wrong. It bombed like crazy._

I'm sorry you took that personally. If one reads the fullness of my post I think they'll recognize it wasn't an attack or anything personal and I hope you'll realize that too. I love your posts here. I'm not looking for a fight at all. Shutting up and backing away now.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

So these are the Promotional Posters for upcoming JL China Press Tour 



See the rest here. 

Apparently they also come in animated form!

----------


## Darkseid Is

That image of Batman from Dark Knight Returns is so beautiful. It's been my wallpaper on my computer for years. Just perfect looking.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I agree that Hawkeye didnt have much character in the Avengers, and was one of the weaker links, but the point of my post was that he didnt require it to make the movie work. The movie didnt need the character stuff for him because, for that specific story, it told you everything you needed to know. Now, if Hawkeye had given a rousing speech to get Black Widow into the fight, as he did for Scarlet Witch in AoU, it probably wouldnt have worked at all because the film doesnt give you enough for that sort of scene. It works in Ultron because they gave us his family life & more insight into the risks he takes. 
> 
> I think they can completely cut out all of the Flash world building stuff (Iris, Henry, dead Mom, even the Speed Force) and he will still be introduced just fine to the GA. A lonely, socially awkward nerd gets struck by lightning, becomes the Fastest Man Alive, and finds friends is all we need for this specific story, imo. Save the other stuff for asmaller film (Flashpoint notwithstanding, anyway). Introductions, by most definitions, are brief; if you introduce me to your sister, nobody requires my life story right up front in order to like or dislike me :P 
> 
> As for X-men, the only people Ive heard complain about the characters not getting enough setup are comic book fans (not saying these people dont exist, just that critics & audiences didnt seem to mind much). Who is Scott Summers? Hes the guy who shoots lasers from his eyes. Nuff said for the movie they were making, and a lot of viewers agreed. Now, if were talking about not enough development as the sequels rolled on, then I would absolutely agree. The sequels were Wolverine & aquaintences, and lack of development of anyone else over the course of the series was a huge issue. But in the first film? Nah. You can only focus on so much before the viewers eyes start to glaze over.


I'd get your point if we were talking about, say, the Atom, or Mr. Terrific....but we're talking about the Flash. Hawkeye is not on the Flash's level when it comes to character cache. Flash being introduced as just the "awkward geek/nerd, who got struck by lightning, and now runs fast" doesn't sell the audience on his movie. Aquaman has the Atlantis factor for him, in that it introduces a world never done in live action. Flash has the Speed Force...yet it looks like the movie will NOT delve into any of those details. Compound that with Henry, and Iris, potentially not being in the movie...and you've got NO background for him.

Hawkeye wasn't getting a movie, nor was he a major draw, and thus he (and Black Widow) has been the odd man out, in terms of being interesting.

The X-Men movie doesn't compare well either. Two reasons: 

1) The main characters were Wolverine, Rogue, Xavier, and Magneto, not the team of X-Men. Here, the main characters make up the team, and thus the actual team is the focus.

2) No character not named Wolverine, Magneto, and Xavier were going to get movies focused on them, and thus FOX didn't have to sell you on their characters so that you'd go see their solo movies.

Finally, the biggest reason why world building is necessary in movies like this, where it's a foregone conclusion that the heroes will win, is that you must make the world their saving MATTER to the audience. It's the nth comic book movie, and/or action movie, about an alien invasion, and a faceless army. Give us a reason to NOT toss this on the pile. World building does that. Also, so does giving depth to the antagonists. Maybe go into the background of the Paradeamons, and how they're the twisted remnants of past victories. That builds stakes. Steppenwolf is described as "tired", so why not go into that aspect of his character? Maybe he lacks motivation, and thus that leads to him not taking all the precautions he normally would. Maybe he's looking for opponents to end his miserable existence, that being living in fear, and doing the bidding, of Darkseid. Maybe he wants Supes' body as a means to overthrow Darkseid.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

I think the Guardians of the Galaxy analogy is apt. If James Gunn was able to introduce six major characters that nobody outside of a few hardcore comics fans had even heard of in 2 hours, I am pretty sure Zach Snyder, Chris Terrio and Joss Whedon can successfully introduce Flash, Aquaman & Cyborg, with more than enough time for household names like Superman, Batman & Wonder Woman. 

This is a pretty straight-forward story, esspecially now that the movie is not burdened with the Luthor/Deathstroke subplot that was only there to set up "The Batman", which has since thrown that script in the garbage. 

Will this be the greatest superhero movie to end all superhero movies? No. This will not replicate The Avengers because the novelty of a giant superhero team-up has long since faded. All it needs to be is a fun time, and I am confident that all the people involved are capable of delivering that to me.

----------


## Confuzzled

The original X-Men that introduced two separate teams: X-Men and Brotherhood, had a runtime of just 1 hour 44 minutes.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The original X-Men that introduced two separate teams: X-Men and Brotherhood, had a runtime of just 1 hour 44 minutes.


It was great too. Didn't feel rushed at all.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think the Guardians of the Galaxy analogy is apt. If James Gunn was able to introduce six major characters that nobody outside of a few hardcore comics fans had even heard of in 2 hours, I am pretty sure Zach Snyder, Chris Terrio and Joss Whedon can successfully introduce Flash, Aquaman & Cyborg, with more than enough time for household names like Superman, Batman & Wonder Woman. 
> 
> This is a pretty straight-forward story, esspecially now that the movie is not burdened with the Luthor/Deathstroke subplot that was only there to set up "The Batman", which has since thrown that script in the garbage. 
> 
> Will this be the greatest superhero movie to end all superhero movies? No. This will not replicate The Avengers because the novelty of a giant superhero team-up has long since faded. All it needs to be is a fun time, and I am confident that all the people involved are capable of delivering that to me.


GotG wasn't setting up characters to have their own movies. Nor is anyone character in that movie near as important as anyone in the JL.

Not only that, but this movie also sets up the New Gods...which can be a series of movies on it's own.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The original X-Men that introduced two separate teams: X-Men and Brotherhood, had a runtime of just 1 hour 44 minutes.


Completely different.

None of those characters not named Wolverine, Rogue, Xavier, and Magneto were important. Of those 4 characters, those 3 characters have gone on to be the focus of the franchise. 

The movie was good, but it wasn't really a team movie; not when it came to storytelling. X2 is a better example, and that movie is *le gasp* over 2hrs long.

Hell, the first Avengers was using characters that already had their own movies...and that still took over 2hrs.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Completely different.
> 
> None of those characters not named Wolverine, Rogue, Xavier, and Magneto were important. Of those 4 characters, *those 3 characters have gone on to be the focus of the franchise.* 
> 
> The movie was good, but it wasn't really a team movie; not when it came to storytelling. X2 is a better example, and that movie is *le gasp* over 2hrs long.
> 
> Hell, the first Avengers was using characters that already had their own movies...and that still took over 2hrs.


That's just a retrospect observation now that we are 17 years into the franchise. But as a standalone in 2000, that movie did feel like a team-up, even if those 4 were more prominent than the rest (though Jean, Mystique, Storm and Cyclops did get their moments as well).

3 out of 6 characters in JL have already been established which is close to 4/5 in Avengers. Even then, Ruffalo's Hulk/Bruce Banner and Black Widow basically got redoes in the film. MoS, BvS and WW have also been watched by far more audiences than The Incredible Hulk and the first Thor and Captain America pre-Avengers, so more people are familiar with the DCEU Trinity than they were with 3 of the Avenger's "Big 4" in the MCU before 2012. 

And it's not like The Avengers did not have superfluous sequences. Everything leading up to the title reveal could have been cut (seeing how little Maria Hill contributed to the rest of the movie or to subsequent MCU movies in general) and that entire part could have just been explained in a 5 second exposition. There was also an entire subplot with Coulson, a non-member of The Avengers, which won't be the case with JL (Lois is the closest instance, but her role will dovetail into Superman's own subplot in the film).

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> GotG wasn't setting up characters to have their own movies. Nor is anyone character in that movie near as important as anyone in the JL.
> 
> Not only that, but this movie also sets up the New Gods...which can be a series of movies on it's own.


Since Aquaman & Flash are getting their own movies, you don't need to spend as much time setting them up. All you need to do is get audiences to be interested enough in them to want to see more of them.

Yes, the New Gods could be a series of movies, but that's not what this movie is doing. They are introducing Apokalips as an invading force, not every last bit of Fourth World mythology. 

I think you need to separate what you think this movie is from what it actually is. It's a superhero team-up movie featuring three of the most recognized superheroes of all time. A lot of the heavy lifting is already done for them. Establishing Steppenwulf and the invading Parademons up as badasses will be accomplished by them whupping ass on Paradise Island, which also gives Wonder Woman a stake in the story. Cyborg's backstory is already tied up in the Mother Box McGuffin, and resurrecting Superman doesn't require much explanation beyond what has already been established in BvS during the creation of Doomsday. Aquaman & Flash's backstories only need to be covered as much as the plot requires, .

Like I said, this is actually a pretty straight-forward story. Batman rallies Flash, Aquaman & Cyborg, each of whom have their own issues and baggage of overcome. Wonder Woman's sisters are given the beatdown by Steppenwulf & his Parademons. The League realizes they need to resurrect Superman if they hope to have any chance at stopping the invasion. Things go sideways, then they all come together to save the day. Roll credits.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Not trying to argue or be argumentative. I'm sorry if my last post offended you. I was replying to the idea (which I think was clear in your post) that DC didn't consider BvS a bomb. I think it's more complicated than that as I posted. No offense intended.


No offense taken. I was more confused than anything. Again, I agree WB felt the movie didn't meet expectations (which I agree it didn't), but if they had considered it a bomb, the DCEU would have died a painful death.

----------


## Soubhagya

Because this is being discussed here i am posting a recent article by Scott Mendelson of Forbes. Fans have pointed this before. I am agreeing with this viewpoint and hoping for the best.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#24504e2713f9

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I'd get your point if we were talking about, say, the Atom, or Mr. Terrific....but we're talking about the Flash. Hawkeye is not on the Flash's level when it comes to character cache. Flash being introduced as just the "awkward geek/nerd, who got struck by lightning, and now runs fast" doesn't sell the audience on his movie. Aquaman has the Atlantis factor for him, in that it introduces a world never done in live action. Flash has the Speed Force...yet it looks like the movie will NOT delve into any of those details. Compound that with Henry, and Iris, potentially not being in the movie...and you've got NO background for him.
> 
> Hawkeye wasn't getting a movie, nor was he a major draw, and thus he (and Black Widow) has been the odd man out, in terms of being interesting.
> 
> The X-Men movie doesn't compare well either. Two reasons: 
> 
> 1) The main characters were Wolverine, Rogue, Xavier, and Magneto, not the team of X-Men. Here, the main characters make up the team, and thus the actual team is the focus.
> 
> 2) No character not named Wolverine, Magneto, and Xavier were going to get movies focused on them, and thus FOX didn't have to sell you on their characters so that you'd go see their solo movies.
> ...


Others have already said it better than I, but Ill chime in anyway. Justice League isnt intended to sell you on anything, and (if rumors are true) is exactly why the world-building stuff was cut. It was said a while back that they were not using Justice League to be 2 hour advertisement for other movies the way Marvel often is. They want this to be a complete story. For a future Flash film (and honestly, we dont even know if he is getting a solo. We know they want to do Flashpoint, but that could just as well be JL 2 instead of a Flash solo), the audience will go if the trailers look good and if they like what they see out of him in Justice League. You dont have to give people a detailed history of his life and the Speedforce, you just have to make current-day Barry look fun. You build his world through his own movie, just as it appears they are doing with Aquaman and did for WW after she appeared in BvS. Diana was a crowd pleasing favorite in BvS & she had zero backstory besides an old photograph. It didnt seem to deter audiences from watching her solo. Hell, I had zero interest in a WW movie prior to BvS, and I know others who were the same way. Small sample size, but we cant be the only ones. 

As for the X-Men...the movie wasnt called Wolverine & Friends, or Mr. Xaviers Home For Peculiar Mutants; it was X-men. Yes, they chose a few characters to put the spotlight on, but people loved the film even without the other characters getting any backstory whatsoever. My point is, no world building is needed for the new characters right now in order to tell this story. Would it be nice? Sure, Id love a 3+ hour JL! But were not getting that, and its not really needed either (again, assuming the movies plot & character interactions are tight). 

As for needing to care about this world, JL is the 5th film in this world; if youre not invested by now, then backstory on Flash or Aquaman in JL arent going to help you.

----------


## Robotman

> Because this is being discussed here i am posting a recent article by Scott Mendelson of Forbes. Fans have pointed this before. I am agreeing with this viewpoint and hoping for the best.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#24504e2713f9


I agree with most of what he says. In a post Harry Potter and LotR era we expect our blockbuster movies to be 2 and a half hours, so it’s a shock to the system to see Justice League at around 115 (not counting credits). And pointing out that in the 90s and early 2000s superhero/blockbuster movies were usually under 2 hours. But I’m still concerned just because we are post LotR and movie studios currently operate with those expectations. In our current film climate the main reason for a studio cutting a movie’s running time down is usually because they know they have a crappy product and want to get as many theaters as possible in the opening weekend.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Because this is being discussed here i am posting a recent article by Scott Mendelson of Forbes. Fans have pointed this before. I am agreeing with this viewpoint and hoping for the best.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#24504e2713f9


That was a fantastic piece, with some great points. Thanks for sharing that.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Default review embargo is 15th Nov. Obviously no critic screenings yet so like WW could be pushed forward if good reception. 

Also where's the confirmation that JL is 2hrs? Seeing pages of discussion but no source?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I agree with most of what he says. In a post Harry Potter and LotR era we expect our blockbuster movies to be 2 and a half hours, so it’s a shock to the system to see Justice League at around 115 (not counting credits). And pointing out that in the 90s and early 2000s superhero/blockbuster movies were usually under 2 hours. But I’m still concerned just because we are post LotR and movie studios currently operate with those expectations. In our current film climate the main reason for a studio cutting a movie’s running time down is usually because they know they have a crappy product and want to get as many theaters as possible in the opening weekend.


The more I think about it, the more I believe the rumors that WB/DC just want to tell this story, and don’t want to set up future stuff. That was a big complaint in BvS, and I think they just want to deliver a fun film to its audience without overloading them with info & ads for future stuff. Especially considering the ads in Age of Ultron was a point of contention for Whedon...I’m not sure he’d have agreed to finish off JL if he had been tasked with doing it all over again. 

But we can consider this: Zach Snyder definitely does not make short movies. Then Whedon comes in and not only reshoots some stuff but also shoots enough new material to get a writing credit. Those 2 things added together equal 121 minutes?? Yeah, I’d say the “fluff” and “filler” got cut, so that JL is streamlined, tight, and fast paced. 

I still wish it were longer, but the more I think of it this 2 hour cut could be a really good thing! It should almost certainly lead to better critic opinions, at least.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

UK folks we're getting JL a day early like WW:
http://mobi.odeon.co.uk/films/justice_league/16978/

Run time is still "?".

----------


## Thomas Crown

> But we can consider this: Zach Snyder definitely does not make short movies. Then Whedon comes in and not only reshoots some stuff but also shoots enough new material to get a writing credit. Those 2 things added together equal 121 minutes?? Yeah, Id say the fluff and filler got cut, so that JL is streamlined, tight, and fast paced.


I would not be surprised if Whedon cut off a lot of Zack's footage in favor of his own scenes.




> I still wish it were longer, but the more I think of it this 2 hour cut could be a really good thing! It should almost certainly lead to better critic opinions, at least.


Which would not necessarily mean an actual good movie.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I still wish it were longer, but the more I think of it this 2 hour cut could be a really good thing! It should almost certainly lead to better critic opinions, at least.


Hopefully, at any rate. I'm still troubled by the relatively short cut based on recent film history for CBM's, but I'm not panicking, either.

----------


## Robotman

> The more I think about it, the more I believe the rumors that WB/DC just want to tell this story, and dont want to set up future stuff. That was a big complaint in BvS, and I think they just want to deliver a fun film to its audience without overloading them with info & ads for future stuff. Especially considering the ads in Age of Ultron was a point of contention for Whedon...Im not sure hed have agreed to finish off JL if he had been tasked with doing it all over again. 
> 
> But we can consider this: Zach Snyder definitely does not make short movies. Then Whedon comes in and not only reshoots some stuff but also shoots enough new material to get a writing credit. Those 2 things added together equal 121 minutes?? Yeah, Id say the fluff and filler got cut, so that JL is streamlined, tight, and fast paced. 
> 
> I still wish it were longer, but the more I think of it this 2 hour cut could be a really good thing! It should almost certainly lead to better critic opinions, at least.


Well a good thing about all the bloat that BvS was criticized for, is that it got a lot of explaination out of the way as to why the Justice League needs to come together. They already established that Bruce has seen visions of armageddon and he wants to put a team together to take up Supermans mantle (Actually, writing that down makes it sound paper thin...hmmm). So they dont have to establish why hes recruiting. Just start the movie off with him finding Aquaman then The Flash. Maybe Diana convinces Cyborg to join. Aquaman refuses, Steppenwolf attacks Atlantis convincing him he needs help, the League is formed.
So maybe the shorter run time is a blessing. Many people found huge chunks of BvS boring. A movie featuring Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman should never be boring.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I'm still so confused, I've not found confirmed source for the run time? Comicbooknow reporting Empire as the source Empire literally put "Rating & Running Time TBC.". Forbes article didn't give any source either, saying "officially confirmed" without a back up doesn't mean anything. 

Feel like I'm going insane here aha.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Hopefully, at any rate. I'm still troubled by the relatively short cut based on recent film history for CBM's, but I'm not panicking, either.


I'm not panicking either. I'm opting to see it as a sign that there's no filler in this movie and that it will be a non-stop fangasm.

I always go in optimistic even when I have reason to be wary. Snyder is the best reason to be wary of ANY movie IMO but I am choosing to "keep a good head (and always carry a lightbulb)" to quote Dylan from a long ago press conference. No matter my reasons for being wary, I'm leaving them all aside and putting them out of my mind so I can go in ready to LOVE this movie.

Of course I felt exactly the same way about BvS (which I saw and was crushed by before the critic embargo lifted and no one knew how poorly received it would be) and I had all the enthusiasm sucked out of me.

Nevertheless I will be going in expecting to love this movie as much as anyone possibly could. I've been waiting about 45 years for this. Cynicism be damned. I will not walk into the cinema with doubts. I will walk in expecting it to be the best movie ever.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I would not be surprised if Whedon cut off a lot of Zack's footage in favor of his own scenes.


I would be greatly disappointed if this weren't the case. The fact of Whedon coming in to finish it (or fix it if you believe those rumors) is what's giving me hope. It would be difficult for me to walk in expecting greatness if I believed it were just another Zack Snyder joint.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I'm still so confused, I've not found confirmed source for the run time? Comicbooknow reporting Empire as the source Empire literally put "Rating & Running Time TBC.". Forbes article didn't give any source either, saying "officially confirmed" without a back up doesn't mean anything. 
> 
> Feel like I'm going insane here aha.


There's no official word yet, but there have been so many unofficial sources and theater chains in the last few days giving the run time as 121 mins. So, not officially confrmed YET...But it's highly doubtful that all of these leaked runtimes are wrong. Possible, but doubtful.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I'm not panicking either. I'm opting to see it as a sign that there's no filler in this movie and that it will be a non-stop fangasm.
> 
> I always go in optimistic even when I have reason to be wary. Snyder is the best reason to be wary of ANY movie IMO but I am choosing to "keep a good head (and always carry a lightbulb)" to quote Dylan from a long ago press conference. No matter my reasons for being wary, I'm leaving them all aside and putting them out of my mind so I can go in ready to LOVE this movie.
> 
> Of course I felt exactly the same way about BvS (which I saw and was crushed by before the critic embargo lifted and no one knew how poorly received it would be) and I had all the enthusiasm sucked out of me.
> 
> Nevertheless I will be going in expecting to love this movie as much as anyone possibly could. I've been waiting about 45 years for this. Cynicism be damned. I will not walk into the cinema with doubts. I will walk in expecting it to be the best movie ever.


As I said many pages back. This movie really doesn't need to do anything more than to entertain and please the broadest audience possible, and I say that as someone who has generally enjoyed the DCEU movies so far. I think Honestly MOS, BvS, Suicide Squad and WW have already given us enough world building. The tent is set up. The saw dust has been spread on the ground. The performers are in place. I'm more than okay if this is nothing more than a two hour carnival ride with Zack's gift for visuals and Weadon's humor. As long as the narrative isn't overly choppy or messy, and the right things are left in and the unneeded bloat is cut down , two hours is plenty of time. 

I'm still a little worried, but thinking it over, it CAN work.

I do hope though any of the cut Snyder footage ( like the rumored cut Luthor subplot) is either put on the Blu-ray or we get an ultimate edition cut when it comes out, if only to compare and see how the final product jibes with Snyder's original intent.

----------


## Lightning Rider

My only real worry is that it's a non-stop quip-fest with no heart or thematic substance at all.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> a two hour carnival ride with Zack's gift for visuals and Weadon's humor


I would like to remind everyone that most of the script was written by Chris Terrio, thankfully. Whedon only scripted the additional scenes. Or at least that's what we were told.

And speaking as someone who's NOT a fan of Whedon's work, I really hope we are spared from his humor and his attempts to write "cool" and "edgy" dialogues.

----------


## Ascended

> My only real worry is that it's a non-stop quip-fest with no heart or thematic substance at all.


If it is....it'll be the most successful DC film in the modern era.

----------


## Soubhagya

> That was a fantastic piece, with some great points. Thanks for sharing that.


You are welcome.




> My only real worry is that it's a non-stop quip-fest with no heart or thematic substance at all.


I would settle for a fun caper. Something i can enjoy in the cinemas while audiences are cheering loudly. It happened with WW. Not sure about BvS or MoS which i did not watch in a theater. Or in SS which i have not watched yet.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> You are welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> I would settle for a fun caper. Something i can enjoy in the cinemas while audiences are cheering loudly. It happened with WW. Not sure about BvS or MoS which i did not watch in a theater. Or in SS which i have not watched yet.


I can't speak for everyone if course, but when I saw BvS opening night, there was a smattering of applause at the end from more than a few people. The only other times I've seen that reaction was at the end of The Dark Knight, The Force Awakens and Logan. Make of it what you will.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I'm starting to agree with the "this could end up being a good thing" crowd. 

For one thing? We still don't know how long this movie was ever intended to be. It's possible that this is EXACTLY as long as they were planning it to be. If so? Then it's going to be a nice, tight story that does what it's supposed to do and no more. 

For another? Even if it WAS cut a lot, then the only thing that could hurt this movie would be if WB failed to learn from BvS and cut stuff that should not have been cut. I just can't imagine them making that same mistake twice. Heck, three times technically. 

And for another? I think Robotman may be onto something. Maybe this movie is short because BvS already laid most of the groundwork. Justice League can just hit the ground running and tell a straightforward story about a team of heroes coming together to save the world. Heck, this may even (possibly) soften people's attitudes toward BvS retroactively. When viewed as part of a one-two punch with Justice League, people may be a little more forgiving toward BvS. Maybe? 

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about it until we start seeing reviews come out. The tight story might be a praise point for the critics for all we know. It's definitely going to come down to the reviews as far as this movie's success. If it gets a "fresh" rating, even a relatively low one, then we're golden. The length will have little to no impact on the movie.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> My only real worry is that it's a non-stop quip-fest with no heart or thematic substance at all.


It's possible, but I think we'll be ok in that regard. It won't likely be as overt or as prevelent as BvS, but it'll still be there I imagine.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

I don't believe Justice League will be devoid of substance. Wonder Woman proved they're capable of putting out a fun popcorn film that is thematically very deep and rewards the audience with multiple viewing because it actually had a lot to say beneath all the bells and whistles. As for Justice League, the trailers have done a pretty good job of telling audiences what this movie's themes will be about**: the power of hope to help people overcome their problems and come together to solve them. 

Given how divisive and ugly our society & politics have become in the last few years, I actually think this is a pretty damned timely and important message for a giant Hollywood blockbuster to be delivering right about now.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I would like to remind everyone that most of the script was written by Chris Terrio, thankfully. Whedon only scripted the additional scenes. Or at least that's what we were told.
> 
> And speaking as someone who's NOT a fan of Whedon's work, I really hope we are spared from his humor and his attempts to write "cool" and "edgy" dialogues.


I think it'll likely be a balance of all three. However Ultimately it will probably still be a Zack Snyder movie and largely feel like it, just with a slightly lighter touch and more straight forward narrative.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I can't speak for everyone if course, but when I saw BvS opening night, there was a smattering of applause at the end from more than a few people. The only other times I've seen that reaction was at the end of The Dark Knight, The Force Awakens and Logan. Make of it what you will.


I saw it twice on opening day (Imax 3D, and a regular 2D screen). The first show, it was quiet when the credits rolled, except for a few people sobbing due to Superman’s death. The second show though, it was crazy! Much like you described. Applause, cheers, whistles, and people excitedly proclaiming “did you see it!! The dirt was floating!” It was awesome. I myself have only experienced that withThe Dark Knight Rises and LotR: Return of the King. Gave me goosebumps. 

The crowd also cheered for Wonder Woman’s arrival at both showings.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I can't speak for everyone if course, but when I saw BvS opening night, there was a smattering of applause at the end from more than a few people. The only other times I've seen that reaction was at the end of The Dark Knight, The Force Awakens and Logan. Make of it what you will.


Oh really. That's great! No wonder it earned  873 million dollars. Geeks like me who spend a lot of time over the internet reading the largely negative comments misunderstand its reception. Thanks for sharing that with me.

----------


## Punisher007

Unfortunately, nothing like that happened in my screenings.  Most people left at best ambivalent about it, if not flat-out hostile.  Now Wonder Woman on the other hand, that got a good reception every time that I saw it.

Also I don't believe for a second, speaking of the JL thing, that Zack Snyder suddenly decided that his superhero movie was only going to be two hours (actually under two hours if you factor in credits).  Especially a Justice League movie.  That doesn't fit his previous track record at all.

Also Wonder Woman was like 20 minutes longer than this, so if anything that movie is an argument FOR a longer runtime.

----------


## Lightning Rider

My theater for BvS cheered loudly throughout whenever something happened. I think even just the lasso got cheers lol.




> It's possible, but I think we'll be ok in that regard. It won't likely be as overt or as prevelent as BvS, but it'll still be there I imagine.


I think so too.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Also I don't believe for a second, speaking of the JL thing, that Zack Snyder suddenly decided that his superhero movie was only going to be two hours (actually under two hours if you factor in credits). Especially a Justice League movie. That doesn't fit his previous track record at all.
> 
> Also Wonder Woman was like 20 minutes longer than this, so if anything that movie is an argument FOR a longer runtime.


Snyder didn't "suddenly decide". Some of the online writers who were invited to a Behind the Scenes set tour last year have said that the plan was always to have JL be lighter and shorter than BvS.

Also, Wonder Woman was a proper origin story where they had to explore Diana growing up in Themyscira, her first encounter with mankind, and then her journey to Man's World. Just these aspects took up almost the first half of the film.

After a short telling of the New Gods history of invading Earth, Justice League will pretty much dive into the action. So being shorter than WW is not the end of the world.

----------


## Confuzzled

> My only real worry is that it's a non-stop quip-fest with no heart or thematic substance at all.


This was posted on Twitter by someone who watched 30 minutes of the film screened as a preview in China. Going by their non-spoiler description of the scenes shown, it seems to still retain the themes from Snyder's films.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> This was posted on Twitter by someone who watched 30 minutes of the film screened as a preview in China. Going by their non-spoiler description of the scenes shown, it seems to still retains the themes from Snyder's films.


Glad to hear it.

----------


## Soubhagya

> This was posted on Twitter by someone who watched 30 minutes of the film screened as a preview in China. Going by their non-spoiler description of the scenes shown, it seems to still retains the themes from Snyder's films.


That's good news. I was wanting only a popcorn-flick. But something more is always better. Its good news for everybody.

----------


## Carabas

I am going to take a review that uses the phrase "costume clowns so call superheroes" with more than a grain of salt.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I am going to take a review that uses the phrase "costume clowns so call superheroes" with more than a grain of salt.


The lady who translated it said the person who wrote the comments was neutral when it came to superhero fandoms and previously didn't care for both MCU _and_ DCEU films.

It's also a translation so the nuance of the phrase may be lost in what the translator wrote in English. It could just be that the person is not a big fan of the constant quips in MCU films and stuff like Deadpool. Here's the original text if anyone here can read Mandarin and check the authenticity of the interpretation.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't believe Justice League will be devoid of substance. Wonder Woman proved they're capable of putting out a fun popcorn film that is thematically very deep and rewards the audience with multiple viewing because it actually had a lot to say beneath all the bells and whistles.


If it's like _Wonder Woman_, then no complaints. It would be a serious, non-campy film that had some light scenes thrown in at appropriate times. That would be a winner in my book.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

IS THAT ZEUS???

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Why would they screen 30 mins of it randomly in China? 

Not buying this at all. Guess it's that time before release when a bunch of BS is gonna break out.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> IS THAT ZEUS???


It......just might be! Sure looks a lot like him. Especially the lightning. 

Add that other image from that scene of some golden-glowing archer shooting down a Parademon, and I think we're getting some serious credibility for a rumor that the flashback sequence would reveal that the Olympian gods participated in the war against Darkseid. The rumor even states that it may reveal just how Ares killed all the other gods: by taking advantage of their weakened state after the battle.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> It......just might be! Sure looks a lot like him. Especially the lightning. 
> 
> Add that other image from that scene of some golden-glowing archer shooting down a Parademon, and I think we're getting some serious credibility for a rumor that the flashback sequence would reveal that the Olympian gods participated in the war against Darkseid. The rumor even states that it may reveal just how Ares killed all the other gods: by taking advantage of their weakened state after the battle.


Dammit... Greek gods are my weakness. I'd love to see this to be honest. I don't know who I'll feel about this movie but I bet I'll love this entire sequence. I hope we get to see Poseidon too, and fighting alongside the Atlanteans. Would be cool I think... And what if that's how Atlan gets his trident?! Okay now I'm really excited. And Ares taking advantage of that is a real prick lol.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

If the review embargo for JL remains the Nov. 15th... then I will be worried.  Hopefully it changes like Wonder Woman's did.   Lifting the review embargo so late before a big blockbuster has never been good news.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Why would they screen 30 mins of it randomly in China? 
> 
> Not buying this at all. Guess it's that time before release when a bunch of BS is gonna break out.


BvS and Wonder Woman had long previews in China as well. It was known that they were similarly going to screen a preview for JL. China is a lucrative market that DC hasn't tapped into like Marvel yet (probably because of the grim content of previous DCEU flicks) so WB has to go all out to show that this is a more "positive" film than something like BvS.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> BvS and Wonder Woman had long previews in China as well. It was known that they were similarly going to screen a preview for JL. China is a lucrative market that DC hasn't tapped into like Marvel yet (probably because of the grim content of previous DCEU flicks) so WB has to go all out to show that this is a more "positive" film than something like BvS.


I see, strikes me as odd to just show 30 mins but eh whatever works. How early were the said BvS and WW previews then? Is this a good sign?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It......just might be! Sure looks a lot like him. Especially the lightning. 
> 
> Add that other image from that scene of some golden-glowing archer shooting down a Parademon, and I think we're getting some serious credibility for a rumor that the flashback sequence would reveal that the Olympian gods participated in the war against Darkseid. The rumor even states that it may reveal just how Ares killed all the other gods: by taking advantage of their weakened state after the battle.


My first thought was Black Adam, but then I looked closer & his outfit is wrong. Its probably Zeus (the boots look  very Greek/Amazonian, in particular. Plus, this guy has more hair than Johnson lol). 

Ive been hoping for a while now that the rumors were true, because if Apokolips was turned back once before by only the combined Amazons, Atlanteans, and Humans, then why would the world need the JL? There is still an island of Amazons, Atlantis is out there, and Humans have pretty powerful weaponry...if they won the invasion then, they wouldnt need the JL to win now. But the Greek Gods changes all that; it explains how the invasion was defeated before, and the JL are analogues for the gods in the present day. So heres hoping.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I see, strikes me as odd to just show 30 mins but eh whatever works. How early were the said BvS and WW previews then? Is this a good sign?


Around the same time before their respective releases. Apparently BvS only showed one scene though but Wonder Woman showed 40 whole minutes. Seeing that JL's preview length is much closer to WW's preview length, I'd take that as a good sign and a show of confidence from the studio in their product.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Further evidence of the Olympians' involvement in the war! I don't see how that can be anyone other than Zeus or Shazam (the Wizard.)

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

New online poster for Fandango.com:

Apparently tickets have gone on sale at this site already.

----------


## Elmo

I think it would be more likely that that character is the wizard Shazam

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I think it would be more likely that that character is the wizard Shazam


Came here to post the exact same thing.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> New online poster for Fandango.com:
> 
> Apparently tickets have gone on sale at this site already.



Love the cutout shape idea

----------


## MosSuperman

Maybe it's too blurry to tell but why aren't Mera's eyes glowing  :Frown: 

https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...39056531320832

----------


## Robotman

Deathstroke movie announced! Joe Manganiello set to star and the director of The Raid Gareth Evans attached. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/25/d...-gareth-evans/

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

According to the Wrap's article on the subject, this is a project Evans himself pitched, after passing on Justice League Dark. 

Looks like he might've been reading some of Tony Daniel's New 52 Deathstroke lately, based on his Instagram. Possible material for inspiration? If so... um... someone please send him a few copies of Priest's Deathstroke, like now. :P

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> According to the Wrap's article on the subject, this is a project Evans himself pitched, after passing on Justice League Dark. 
> 
> Looks like he might've been reading some of Tony Daniel's New 52 Deathstroke lately, based on his Instagram. Possible material for inspiration? If so... um... someone please send him a few copies of Priest's Deathstroke, like now. :P


These directors keep reading the new 52 versions for materials. Someone should tell them they're researching wrong.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I think it would be more likely that that character is the wizard Shazam


Possible. But then how do you explain the golden-glowy archer? Looks like a good contender for Apollo to me. Plus, there was a rumor a while back that the gods were involved in the war with Darkseid, so there's a degree of serendipity at work here.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> New online poster for Fandango.com:
> 
> Apparently tickets have gone on sale at this site already.


Thanks for posting! I bought tickets for 2 shows that day, with the best seats in the house! I wasnt expecting them to go on sale until Friday, so I appreciate it!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Deathstroke movie announced! Joe Manganiello set to star and the director of “The Raid” Gareth Evans attached. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/25/d...-gareth-evans/


That article is kind of funny...everyone complains that guys like Flash & Aquaman didn’t get solos prior to JL (people think they need solos first, apparently), ala the MCU, but Deathstroke might be getting a film and it says that introducing him “cold, in a solo outing” would be a bad idea. Which is it media? 

 We’re not talking about a Pied Piper movie, we’re talking about one of DC’s biggest villains (and growing more popular due to ‘Arrow’). He can support a solo film. This is why DC can never win with a lot of people. They do their own thing, people rail against them. They take a page from the competition’s book, people rail against them. It’s kinda sad. 

At any rate, a Deathstroke flick by the Raid guy? Yes please! Depending on how long it takes to get The Batman going, this could be a good way to introduce Nightwing, too.

----------


## golgi

Wow.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/25/j...andango-down//

_Justice League Tickets Rush Crashed Fandango_

----------


## TheSupernaut

I hope they base it off the Christopher Priest run.

----------


## Styles

Nightwing solo, Cyborg solo, now a Deathstroke solo. Even a Titans tv show. Might as well do a Titans movie too.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Jeremy Conrad:

*"A report has been made with the FBI regarding these threats Ive received over #JusticeLeagues runtime. If you did it, have a nice day!"* 

https://mobile.twitter.com/ManaByte/...16299348492289

----------


## Beantownbrown

> Deathstroke movie announced! Joe Manganiello set to star and the director of “The Raid” Gareth Evans attached. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/25/d...-gareth-evans/


Damn, didn't think they had any plans for him. Nice. Maybe it'll be their 1st rated R film in the DCEU.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> That article is kind of funny...everyone complains that guys like Flash & Aquaman didn’t get solos prior to JL (people think they need solos first, apparently), ala the MCU, but Deathstroke might be getting a film and it says that introducing him “cold, in a solo outing” would be a bad idea. Which is it media? 
> 
>  We’re not talking about a Pied Piper movie, we’re talking about one of DC’s biggest villains (and growing more popular due to ‘Arrow’). He can support a solo film. This is why DC can never win with a lot of people. They do their own thing, people rail against them. They take a page from the competition’s book, people rail against them. It’s kinda sad. 
> 
> At any rate, a Deathstroke flick by the Raid guy? Yes please! Depending on how long it takes to get The Batman going, this could be a good way to introduce Nightwing, too.


Hmm. Another website I frequent has received this in an overwhelmingly positive manner, even when there's a bit of a general dislike for the DCEU so far. I'm really excited for this. The Raid movies blew my mind and that, plus Deathstroke?? And Joe??? I might as well die happy now lol.

I think really the problem is that WB/DC don't have an official slate

----------


## Robotman

> Jeremy Conrad:
> 
> *"A report has been made with the FBI regarding these threats I’ve received over #JusticeLeague’s runtime. If you did it, have a nice day!"* 
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/ManaByte/...16299348492289


Seriously the internet comic book movie discussions are just toxic. People need to chill the f$*# out. 

A few weeks ago I posted on a Facebook comments section that I didn’t like the direction Zach Snyder was taking the DCEU, that I didn’t like BvS, and that I was glad WB had parted ways with him. A guy private messaged me in order to rant directly at me. called me “a pussy who doesn’t know anything about movies etc. etc. “

Internet comments sections in general are just horrible. There should be some accountability.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Deathstroke movie announced! Joe Manganiello set to star and the director of The Raid Gareth Evans attached. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/25/d...-gareth-evans/


Already seen people complaining about yet another "Bat movie" never mind the fact Deathstroke has been a Titans and greater DCU villain far longer than he has been a Batman one.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Seriously the internet comic book movie discussions are just toxic. People need to chill the f$*# out. 
> 
> A few weeks ago I posted on a Facebook comments section that I didnt like the direction Zach Snyder was taking the DCEU, that I didnt like BvS, and that I was glad WB had parted ways with him. A guy private messaged me in order to rant directly at me. called me a pussy who doesnt know anything about movies etc. etc. 
> 
> Internet comments sections in general are just horrible. There should be some accountability.


Agreed. At the end of the day, it's just movies.

----------


## Styles

> Seriously the internet comic book movie discussions are just toxic. People need to chill the f$*# out. 
> 
> A few weeks ago I posted on a Facebook comments section that I didn’t like the direction Zach Snyder was taking the DCEU, that I didn’t like BvS, and that I was glad WB had parted ways with him. A guy private messaged me in order to rant directly at me. called me “a pussy who doesn’t know anything about movies etc. etc. “
> 
> Internet comments sections in general are just horrible. There should be some accountability.


That's true. The internet can get over the top and crazy. Even Sanberg is anticipating the net is gonna get wild on him for Shazam.

----------


## Troian

> Seriously the internet comic book movie discussions are just toxic. People need to chill the f$*# out. 
> 
> A few weeks ago I posted on a Facebook comments section that I didn’t like the direction Zach Snyder was taking the DCEU, that I didn’t like BvS, and that I was glad WB had parted ways with him. A guy private messaged me in order to rant directly at me. called me “a pussy who doesn’t know anything about movies etc. etc. “
> 
> Internet comments sections in general are just horrible. There should be some accountability.


Because on the internet you are unknown. Irl we are all afraid of the consequences but many internet stuff goes under the radar until shit hits the fan, ie - a suicide.

----------


## Lightning Rider

More stills



https://www.facebook.com/DCEntertain...type=3&theater

----------


## Frontier

> That's true. The internet can get over the top and crazy. Even Sanberg is anticipating the net is gonna get wild on him for Shazam.


I get what he means, but I honestly don't think people feel that strongly about the hood  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Well, looks like Justice League will release right after I finish my mid-terms, and there were still a wealth of good seats left for the Thursday opener, so I decided what the hell - might as well indulge myself!  :Cool:

----------


## Elmo

I'm in the midst of midterms right now so if I'm not dead by the end of the week I'll buy some JL tickets

----------


## Frontier

> Well, looks like Justice League will release right after I finish my mid-terms, and there were still a wealth of good seats left for the Thursday opener, so I decided what the hell - might as well indulge myself!





> I'm in the midst of midterms right now so if I'm not dead by the end of the week I'll buy some JL tickets


Best of luck to both of you on your exams  :Smile: .

----------


## Robotman

So the rumor was that the Deathstroke and Lex scene had been cut from the Justice League movie. This rumor apparently started when someone claiming to have been a part of the test screenings stated it to be true. So according to the internet it’s “confirmed”.  But now they announce the Deathstroke movie just weeks ahead of the release of Justice League. So I’m thinking there’s still a chance that scene makes the theatrical cut. Maybe as a mid credits scene.

----------


## ross61

> I get what he means, but I honestly don't think people feel that strongly about the hood .


...... youd be very surprised then.

----------


## Elmo

> ...... you’d be very surprised then.


It's up there with Superman's trunks and Nightwing's fingerstripes

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's up there with Superman's trunks and Nightwing's fingerstripes


Nothing tops Superman's trunks, which is hilarious because nobody from my generation really cared about them 40-something years ago. Absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that for some, I guess.  :Smile:

----------


## batnbreakfast

Guessing the (undeserved imho) success of Deadshot greenlighted a Deathstroke movie. WB taking all the wrong lessons again? Hopefully I'm wrong and Deathstroke rocks.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

JL track listing :

Tracklisting:
Disc 1
01. Everybody Knows - Sigrid
02. The Justice League Theme - Logos
03. Hero’s Theme
04. Batman on the Roof
05. Enter Cyborg
06. Wonder Woman Rescue
07. Hippolyta's Arrow
08. The Story of Steppenwolf
09. The Amazon Mother Box
10. Cyborg Meets Diana
11. Aquaman in Atlantis
12. Then There Were Three
13. The Tunnel Fight
14. The World Needs Superman
15. Spark of The Flash
16. Friends and Foes
17. Justice League United
18. Home
19. Bruce and Diana
20. The Final Battle
21. A New Hope
22. Anti-Hero’s Theme
23. Come Together – Gary Clark Jr. and Junkie XL
24. Icky Thump – The White Stripes

Disc 2
01. The Tunnel Fight (Full Length Bonus Track)
02. The Final Battle (Full Length Bonus Track)
03. Mother Russia (Bonus Track)

https://youtu.be/ojyuFzWA0v4

For the record BvS had 13 and 5 Bonus and WW had 15 tracks. Looks like we're getting a bit more this time around.

----------


## ross61

> Guessing the (undeserved imho) success of Deadshot greenlighted a Deathstroke movie. WB taking all the wrong lessons again? Hopefully I'm wrong and Deathstroke rocks.


What about a Deathstroke movie by Gareth fucking Evans is a wrong lesson?

----------


## TitanMax

> Guessing the (undeserved imho) success of Deadshot greenlighted a Deathstroke movie. WB taking all the wrong lessons again? Hopefully I'm wrong and Deathstroke rocks.


What does Deadshot have to do with it?

----------


## Frontier

> ...... you’d be very surprised then.


I didn't mean on the front of hating it, but I don't think many would be bothered if it wasn't on the suit.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> What does Deadshot have to do with it?


The success of the hitman stereotype is bothering me. Audiences liked WSmith and he was Deadshot in name only. I simply guess since WSmith won't come back for another flick they just decided to give his spot to Deathstroke. I'd rather have other solo movies next.

----------


## Elmo

If it was because of Deadshot they would have went ahead and announced a Deadshot movie. Besides, 2 years ago David Goyer announced that a Deathstroke movie was in development (source) . That plus the news that Gareth Evans pitched this film himself shows that WB had confidence in the character and wanted to make the movie. Not to mention that Deadshot and Deathstroke are almost nothing alike. One is a gun for hire and one is a cold-blooded super-powered mercenary. While they have similar jobs, their backstories and traits are drastically different.

----------


## MosSuperman

I'm sure y'all know who's artwork this this DNE48NyVoAAy2Nk.jpg

----------


## FlashEarthOne

JL Tracking for $110-120 Million opening weekend.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...launch-1051990

----------


## Hilden B. Lade



----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

It's worth noticing that studios have been courting Gareth Evas to work in Hollywood ever since The Raid. that he's willing to finally do so for Deathstroke movie is absolutely remarkable. I just hope he stays away from anything Tony Daniel did with the character, that run was the pits.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's worth noticing that studios have been courting Gareth Evas to work in Hollywood ever since The Raid. that he's willing to finally do so for Deathstroke movie is absolutely remarkable. I just hope he stays away from anything Tony Daniel did with the character, that run was the pits.


Pretty sure he will, as all that stuff is too big budget for a first Deathstroke movie.

----------


## Robotman

> JL track listing :
> 
> Tracklisting:
> Disc 1
> 01. Everybody Knows - Sigrid
> 02. The Justice League Theme - Logos
> 03. Hero’s Theme
> 04. Batman on the Roof
> 05. Enter Cyborg
> ...


Earlier I posted about how I think the Deathstroke cameo is actually still in the movie, as they’re announcing a Deathstroke flick weeks before the release of Justice League. I’m thinking it will be a mid credits scene. This playlist shows a track called “Anti-hero’s theme” at the end of the movie right before or during the credits. Could definitely be for Slade.
If Waller is involved it could also be a promotion for Suicide Squad 2.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> If it was because of Deadshot they would have went ahead and announced a Deadshot movie. Besides, 2 years ago David Goyer announced that a Deathstroke movie was in development (source) . That plus the news that Gareth Evans pitched this film himself shows that WB had confidence in the character and wanted to make the movie. Not to mention that Deadshot and Deathstroke are almost nothing alike. One is a gun for hire and one is a cold-blooded super-powered mercenary. While they have similar jobs, their backstories and traits are drastically different.


They are both assassins who take money to kill people and are presented as protagonists 
similar background
similar problems with their kids
similar jobs 
similar names

----------


## Black_Adam

Can't believe I'm saying this but you know I'm not totally opposed to the idea of Affleck leaving the DCEU like I was previously. I dunno it just seems to be one issue after another for him and he just doesn't seem as into it as the others. I've been watching a lot of the China press tour but this is something I've noticed going all the way back to BvS. Everyone else seems super pumped, energetic and wanting to talk about the movie Ben is just kinda there. With this blank look on his face or a forced smile for the camera. Even looking on Instagram it looks like Momoa, Fisher, Miller and the rest are all hanging out together all except Ben. In fact the only real time I've seen him animated was at Comic-Con this year denying he was done with Batman.

Again I know it's a bad time with the sexual harassment stuff coming to light, Weinstein saga etc. but putting that aside, if he is unhappy doing this long term (we are talking another 5-6 years minimum) I would rather they get someone else who wants to be Batman.

----------


## golgi

*STRONG* pre-sales so far.




> Jeremy Conrad
> @ManaByte
> Apparently #JusticeLeague will have the best first-day advanced ticket sales for any movie without “Star Wars” in its name for one chain.

----------


## Lightning Rider

New International Trailer

----------


## ross61

> They are both assassins who take money to kill people and are presented as protagonists 
> similar background
> similar problems with their kids
> similar jobs 
> similar names


Thats what they have in common?

----------


## Robotman

> New International Trailer


Man, that Apokolips vs Amazons war looks so much more detailed now than when we saw a glimpse in the first trailer. The cgi team has been working hard over the past couple months.

I don’t think I’m gonna watch anymore trailers. They seem to be releasing more footage everyday. Want to be surprised by some stuff in the theater.

----------


## golgi

The first reactions in China are positive. POTENTIAL SPOILERS!

https://mobile.twitter.com/fukujang0...19064287301633

----------


## Blind Wedjat

So Gal Gadot has pretty much confirmed the end of BvS was retconned in Wonder Woman's case:




> "We realized that actually, there is no way that Wonder Woman will ever give up on mankind. The reason why she left the island was because she wanted to make their life better and safer  they are her calling. So  Im giving you a very honest answer  sometimes, in a creative process, you establish something that is not necessarily the right decision, but then you can always correct it and change it. So Wonder Woman will always be there as far as she concerns for mankind.

----------


## Thomas Crown

In other words, screw continuity in the name of fanservice, right? And this is just the beginning. Don't be surprised when Geoff Johns use the "Flashpoint" movie to retcon EVERY creative decision made by Zack Snyder.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> In other words, screw continuity in the name of fanservice, right? And this is just the beginning. Don't be surprised when Geoff Johns use the "Flashpoint" movie to retcon EVERY creative decision made by Zack Snyder.


Tbh I'll be out the DCEU after Aquaman and will probably just take a casual approach to it like I now do the MCU.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> In other words, screw continuity in the name of fanservice, right? And this is just the beginning. Don't be surprised when Geoff Johns use the "Flashpoint" movie to retcon EVERY creative decision made by Zack Snyder.


Or "screw continuity when it doesn't make a damn bit of sense for the character in question."

Wonder Woman is NOT weak enough, cowardly enough, or self-absorbed enough to completely abandon mankind to "a century of horrors" just because she lost her boyfriend. That goes completely against EVERY portrayal of her character. 

Would she be sad for a bit? Sure. Would she refuse to lift a finger to help other people in need for a full century until two dudes basically shame her into pulling her head out of her ass and doing something useful again? Nope.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Or "screw continuity when it doesn't make a damn bit of sense for the character in question."
> 
> Wonder Woman is NOT weak enough, cowardly enough, or self-absorbed enough to completely abandon mankind to "a century of horrors" just because she lost her boyfriend. That goes completely against EVERY portrayal of her character. 
> 
> Would she be sad for a bit? Sure. Would she refuse to lift a finger to help other people in need for a full century until two dudes basically shame her into pulling her head out of her ass and doing something useful again? Nope.


Also, it was like _one_ vague line. Some people are behaving like we saw multiple movies' worth of Diana being driven cynical by mankind that led her to the point of no return. To suddenly come back to help without any explanation.

Even without retconning, it could be easily explained that she still wasn't comfortable enough with Bruce to start working with him fully, so she exaggerated her attitude on the spot. A lot of real people do it all the time. But later when the New Gods attacked again, she had to get over her reservations and go seek his help. Despite not being the original plan, it is still an interesting character arc and one that I frankly prefer to the initial one.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Also, it was like _one_ vague line. Some people are behaving like we saw multiple movies' worth of Diana being driven cynical by mankind that led her to the point of no return. To suddenly come back to help without any explanation.
> 
> Even without retconning, it could be easily explained that she still wasn't comfortable enough with Bruce to start working with him fully, so she exaggerated her attitude on the spot. A lot of real people do it all the time. But later when the New Gods attacked again, she had to get over her reservations and go seek his help. Despite not being the original plan, it is still an interesting character arc and one that I frankly prefer to the initial one.


I'm in agreement with all of this.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Also, it was like _one_ vague line. Some people are behaving like we saw multiple movies' worth of Diana being driven cynical by mankind that led her to the point of no return. To suddenly come back to help without any explanation.
> 
> Even without retconning, it could be easily explained that she still wasn't comfortable enough with Bruce to start working with him fully, so she exaggerated her attitude on the spot. A lot of real people do it all the time. But later when the New Gods attacked again, she had to get over her reservations and go seek his help. Despite not being the original plan, it is still an interesting character arc and one that I frankly prefer to the initial one.


100% agree. There have been errors that are easy to fix. This is one.

----------


## Jokerz79

Maybe Diana just lied to Bruce. Wonder Woman 2 is rumored to be set in the 80's during the Cold War if so she obviously wasn't MIA for an entire century. Bruce found a pic of her from WWI when he got the files from Lexcorp. Let's look at it from her POV a rich guy with unlimited resources and a fetish to dress up like a Bat and distribute his own justice including death and he wants to already kill Superman for being Superman just found out you are a meta-human well he's assuming your a meta and not the daughter of a god. Yeah I'm not going to give him anymore info either until I know him better.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Maybe Diana just lied to Bruce. Wonder Woman 2 is rumored to be set in the 80's during the Cold War if so she obviously wasn't MIA for an entire century. Bruce found a pic of her from WWI when he got the files from Lexcorp. Let's look at it from her POV a rich guy with unlimited resources and a fetish to dress up like a Bat and distribute his own justice including death and he wants to already kill Superman for being Superman just found out you are a meta-human well he's assuming your a meta and not the daughter of a god. Yeah I'm not going to give him anymore info either until I know him better.


This is pretty much how I see it. Though perhaps with a little less cynicism. 

Diana almost certainly was lying, but it may not have been about protecting herself. She may have lied in order to test Bruce. She's been around for over a century. She's probably seen a dozen Bruce Waynes promising to change the world, only to deliver nothing. She may have lied to see how Bruce would respond to this obvious indictment against humanity. If he agreed with her, she would've known he was just another blowhard. If he disagreed, then she would have more reason to believe that he just might be worth supporting.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I think you guys are overthinking it. Gal Gadot just said it's was decision that they thought over and realised it wasn't right. Hence, a retcon. If she didn't say this then I'd understand this discussion but really, whatever Wonder Woman said at the end of BvS has been retconned. Let's not forget that Patty Jenkins I believe also said the end of that movie didn't sit right with her, hence adding the bit at the end of Wonder Woman about always fighting for mankind. I don't think I'm mistaken in that's what happened at the end of the film and that's why Patty (and/or the screenwriter) add that scene. 

Now, this is kinda proof that this universe should have been built on Wonder Woman.

Unlike Cap who had been frozen for decades and Thor who (with Asgard) only interferes with Earth/Midgard's affairs when the other realms are involved, Wonder Woman has been on Earth and now thanks to this, we know that she was actually active since WW1. So I don't know how else to explain why she didn't interfere with the events of MoS for example. They weren't too small for her like perhaps some of the stuff Batman had been doing. I mean, we even know that she's heard of an alien invasion before she was born spearheaded by Steppenwolf. So where was she? Saying she abandoned humanity was the smarter choice, as awful as it made her seem. 

Now I'm actually happy it's been retconned because really the DCEU just needs someone who is good through and through. I don't care if that's not "realistic", "dark", "relatable" or whatever those buzzwords are. The DCEU needs a real hero. You know, the ones that got people into comics in the first place.

Honestly BvS to me has to be one of the biggest mistakes in superhero film in terms of it's plot and the effects it will have on future films, if it is not retconned. Batman's arc in the DCEU to me has just been so unbelievably shallow. How this guy went from "If there's even a 1% chance he's our enemy..." to "I failed him in life" and "Superman was a beacon of hope to the world" with NO in between thanks to one or two moments is really something. Why does he get to be suddenly absolved of all those mistakes he made and those people he killed just because he had a ridiculously executed change of heart? That's being a Mary Sue. Not to talk of Superman's arc which has been fairly decent but only works if you make the guy an unbothered and inconsistently heroic prick. The only people that ever believed in him were Lois and Martha Kent. Maybe even Alfred but that's pushing it. Everyone else either hated the guy, was paid to hate him or had mix feelings about him. How is he a beacon of hope? Why's the world suddenly sad that he's dead. If I were Lois or Martha, I'd hate everyone (which would actually be deep instead of the nonsense we've gotten) That's the very definition of being a fake fan.

And it's quite obvious this was retconned because the end of Wonder Woman actually made no sense. Had that movie ended with Diana killing Ludendorff, and then realising that humanity was still going to have bad people in it, Ares or no Ares, and then gave up on humanity because of that (and Steve Trevor's death), that would have made sense (and would have been deep). But not only did she kill Ares, pretty much proving her suspicion, it ruined an almost perfect movie.

At least it seems WB is learning. But really did no one not think this through?

----------


## Agent Z

> Now, this is kinda proof that this universe should have been built on Wonder Woman.


How? 




> Unlike Cap who had been frozen for decades and Thor who (with Asgard) only interferes with Earth/Midgard's affairs when the other realms are involved, Wonder Woman has been on Earth and now thanks to this, we know that she was actually active since WW1. So I don't know how else to explain why she didn't interfere with the events of MoS for example.


The invasion was barely a day and Diana could have been on another part of the planet or even off world. Even if she would have wanted to do anything about it, it wouldn’t be too hard to come up with an explanation for why she wasn’t involved. Captain America, for instance, wasn’t involved in Iron man 3 which involved an attempted assassination of the President and none of the other Avengers showed up in The Dark World despite it involving another alien invasion.




> They weren't too small for her like perhaps some of the stuff Batman had been doing. I mean, we even know that she's heard of an alien invasion before she was born spearheaded by Steppenwolf. So where was she? Saying she abandoned humanity was the smarter choice, as awful as it made her seem.


Does it really make her awful? I can’t imagine being a alive for a thousand and more years and feeling like humanity never seems to learn from their mistakes. Hell, I’m 24 and I still feel fairly cynical about the world a lot of times. 
Of course, now you have to explain how no one found Diana out or why she even bothered with a secret identity despite that not having one is something that set her apart from Clark and Bruce.




> The DCEU needs a real hero.


And we’re defining this how exactly?




> Honestly BvS to me has to be one of the biggest mistakes in superhero film in terms of it's plot and the effects it will have on future films, if it is not retconned. Batman's arc in the DCEU to me has just been so unbelievably shallow. How this guy went from "If there's even a 1% chance he's our enemy..." to "I failed him in life" and "Superman was a beacon of hope to the world" with NO in between thanks to one or two moments is really something.


There are characters that are considered heroic and have done far worse than this Batman. Angel and Spike from Buffy, Scarlet Witch in AoU and Vegeta from Dragon Ball. At least, Snyder limited Bruce’s body count to villains.




> Why does he get to be suddenly absolved of all those mistakes he made and those people he killed just because he had a ridiculously executed change of heart?


Who says he’s been absolved? Johns has even stated that Bruce’s actions in the last movie won’t be ignored.




> Not to talk of Superman's arc which has been fairly decent but only works if you make the guy an unbothered and inconsistently heroic prick.


Care to explain what you mean by this?




> The only people that ever believed in him were Lois and Martha Kent. Maybe even Alfred but that's pushing it.


And the people who built a statue of him, the people who were protesting in his defense at the Capitol (you can see some signs in his support at that scene), Senator Finch who was never actually against him and even tried to stone wall Luthor’s attempts to kill him and Jenny in Man of Steel who flat out stated Clark was a hero.
As for the reactions following his death, it’s an all too real fact that people sometimes get more respect in death than they ever did in life.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Patty Jenkins already mentioned this retcon nothing new really.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I think you guys are overthinking it. Gal Gadot just said it's was decision that they thought over and realised it wasn't right. Hence, a retcon. If she didn't say this then I'd understand this discussion but really, whatever Wonder Woman said at the end of BvS has been retconned. Let's not forget that Patty Jenkins I believe also said the end of that movie didn't sit right with her, hence adding the bit at the end of Wonder Woman about always fighting for mankind. I don't think I'm mistaken in that's what happened at the end of the film and that's why Patty (and/or the screenwriter) add that scene. 
> 
> Now, this is kinda proof that this universe should have been built on Wonder Woman.
> 
> Unlike Cap who had been frozen for decades and Thor who (with Asgard) only interferes with Earth/Midgard's affairs when the other realms are involved, Wonder Woman has been on Earth and now thanks to this, we know that she was actually active since WW1. So I don't know how else to explain why she didn't interfere with the events of MoS for example. They weren't too small for her like perhaps some of the stuff Batman had been doing. I mean, we even know that she's heard of an alien invasion before she was born spearheaded by Steppenwolf. So where was she? Saying she abandoned humanity was the smarter choice, as awful as it made her seem. 
> 
> Now I'm actually happy it's been retconned because really the DCEU just needs someone who is good through and through. I don't care if that's not "realistic", "dark", "relatable" or whatever those buzzwords are. The DCEU needs a real hero. You know, the ones that got people into comics in the first place.
> 
> Honestly BvS to me has to be one of the biggest mistakes in superhero film in terms of it's plot and the effects it will have on future films, if it is not retconned. Batman's arc in the DCEU to me has just been so unbelievably shallow. How this guy went from "If there's even a 1% chance he's our enemy..." to "I failed him in life" and "Superman was a beacon of hope to the world" with NO in between thanks to one or two moments is really something. Why does he get to be suddenly absolved of all those mistakes he made and those people he killed just because he had a ridiculously executed change of heart? That's being a Mary Sue. Not to talk of Superman's arc which has been fairly decent but only works if you make the guy an unbothered and inconsistently heroic prick. The only people that ever believed in him were Lois and Martha Kent. Maybe even Alfred but that's pushing it. Everyone else either hated the guy, was paid to hate him or had mix feelings about him. How is he a beacon of hope? Why's the world suddenly sad that he's dead. If I were Lois or Martha, I'd hate everyone (which would actually be deep instead of the nonsense we've gotten) That's the very definition of being a fake fan.
> ...


Beacon of hope. I want to address this. 
See Superman was a divisive figure when alive. He was loved a lot initially. The statue amidst Metropolis is proof enough. I mean who erects a statue of the guy who 'brought' the alien invasion and 'destroyed' the city. He was loved and admired at first by the people. 

Like any public figure he was divisive. But it was not brought to the forefront for the first eighteen months after the Battle of Metropolis. People generally adored him. After the incident of the desert Perry mentions headline for Daily Planet. 'End of world's love affair of Superman.' After that particular incident public opinion varied. Some looked upto him as a messiah, others were doubting and questioning him. While some wanted to kill him.

After his death at the hands of Doomsday saving the world and Metropolis, there was a groundswell of love and respect for the fallen hero. The ending scene shows entire Metropolis in mourning. Shops and offices were empty as almost the entire population of the city joined with candles in their hands in front of his monument to pay their respects. There was a 21 canon salute by the US armed forces to respect him and they 'buried' him as a martyr.

The point is that when he was living he was divisive. And when dead he was universally loved. The films skips over that 'love affair'. Those 18 months. And because Superman has almost no presence in the movie while everyone seems to hate him one may arrive at this conclusion. It is wrong to say he was hated by everyone. (They could have shown this better imo).

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Is anyone's theatre doing a double/triple bill with BvS and or MoS?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Is anyone's theatre doing a double/triple bill with BvS and or MoS?


I haven't been to a triple bill since my brothers and I saw _The Chinese Connection_, _The Return of the Dragon_, and _Game of Death_ back in '83 in memory of the tenth-year anniversary of Bruce Lee's death.  :Smile:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Is anyone's theatre doing a double/triple bill with BvS and or MoS?


A theater chain in my area is doing a Justice League/Wonder Woman double feature.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> A theater chain in my area is doing a Justice League/Wonder Woman double feature.


Huh, kinda weird since WW just came out this year  but at least it's something, chains in my local area aren't even giving us decent times for JL period let alone any sort of double or triple bill. SW gets amazing treatment and has showings every couple of hours after midnight on opening day but JL the times just sporadic.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I forgot to add the little disclaimer that everything I typed (and I am going to type now) was my opinion and I did copy and paste that comment from another website I left it on, so I apologise if I was a little aggressive. I was when I first typed it. Nevertheless...




> How?


Perhaps 'proof' is a strong word but I firmly believe it should have been. She has the most relevant history out of all the current members of the JL and she's been alive for the longest whilst interacting with people. Even if she's a myth, it would be cool if she was sort of seen as the first hero in the world kinda like how Cap is in the MCU.




> The invasion was barely a day and Diana could have been on another part of the planet or even off world. Even if she would have wanted to do anything about it, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with an explanation for why she wasnt involved. Captain America, for instance, wasnt involved in Iron man 3 which involved an attempted assassination of the President and none of the other Avengers showed up in The Dark World despite it involving another alien invasion.


Until it comes out that she was away for some good reason, I fail to see why that has to be the automatic assumption other than they didn't think it through that well. Which goes back a little bit to my first point, that the universe should have been built around her existence. 




> Does it really make her awful? I cant imagine being a alive for a thousand and more years and feeling like humanity never seems to learn from their mistakes. Hell, Im 24 and I still feel fairly cynical about the world a lot of times. 
> Of course, now you have to explain how no one found Diana out or why she even bothered with a secret identity despite that not having one is something that set her apart from Clark and Bruce.


Repeat after me: Wonder Woman/Diana is 

1. A fictional character.
2. Not a human being.
3. A comic book character.

Just because _you_ think that she would somehow waver in her conviction because _you_ think you would if you were her, doesn't mean she would or she has to for the sake of "realism" or being relatable. After all, this is why people read comics in the first place. We loved these characters because they could what we could only dream of doing, and I don't just mean run faster than a speeding bullet or master 127 martial arts. I mean that they can keep keeping on when everything gets tough. One ability I know almost every member of the JL has is an "Indomitable Will". That's something most human beings don't have. For this Wonder Woman to just give up on humanity because they aren't learning anything makes no sense. Again, is it not the same Diana that said she knew that humans were flawed, but it was their ability to love that made them worth saving? You have to realise Patty Jenkins did this on purpose.





> And were defining this how exactly?


Oh, I am the one defining it of course. Allow me to demonstrate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL_4U5gwbmM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM2WAToprJM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z15VGUFCnjo

Which scene advances the plot, and which scene stops the plot but adds more to the themes of the movie? Which scene tells us more about the main characters beliefs and motivations, and which shows us what the main character can do? Which scene shows the main character adding to the destruction, and which shows the main character actively trying to stop it? 




> There are characters that are considered heroic and have done far worse than this Batman. Angel and Spike from Buffy, Scarlet Witch in AoU and Vegeta from Dragon Ball. At least, Snyder limited Bruces body count to villains.


I don't think anyone considers Scarlet Witch a hero. That's never even been hinted. She's more or less a woman who goes from working on the wrong side with Ultron because of what Tony did to her parents, and then has a change of heart because of what she finds out Ultron wants to do to Earth, to being feared by the general populace because of what she did in Lagos, then controlling her own fear of herself. No where in that arc is she considered that much of a hero. But hey, Wanda has never actively killed anyone, good or bad. Closest thing was mind controlling the Hulk. But that is not even the same thing as actively and directly shooting at bad guys. Meanwhile, the same Scarlet Witch compelled people to evacuate Sokovia, helped fight against Ultron and his army, and took out Crossbones' goons. She also got some Wakandan scientists killed, but that was by accident when trying to contain the suicide bomb explosion Crossbones unleashed to kill Cap and other civilians on ground. That's far more than anything Batman has done in the DCEU thus far. Can't speak on Vegeta, Spike or Angel.




> Who says hes been absolved? Johns has even stated that Bruces actions in the last movie wont be ignored.


Well I'll eat crow pleasantly if this does happen.




> Care to explain what you mean by this?


See my other point above.




> And the people who built a statue of him, the people who were protesting in his defense at the Capitol (you can see some signs in his support at that scene), Senator Finch who was never actually against him and even tried to stone wall Luthors attempts to kill him and Jenny in Man of Steel who flat out stated Clark was a hero.
> As for the reactions following his death, its an all too real fact that people sometimes get more respect in death than they ever did in life.





> Beacon of hope. I want to address this. 
> See Superman was a divisive figure when alive. He was loved a lot initially. The statue amidst Metropolis is proof enough. I mean who erects a statue of the guy who 'brought' the alien invasion and 'destroyed' the city. He was loved and admired at first by the people. 
> 
> Like any public figure he was divisive. But it was not brought to the forefront for the first eighteen months after the Battle of Metropolis. People generally adored him. After the incident of the desert Perry mentions headline for Daily Planet. 'End of world's love affair of Superman.' After that particular incident public opinion varied. Some looked upto him as a messiah, others were doubting and questioning him. While some wanted to kill him.
> 
> After his death at the hands of Doomsday saving the world and Metropolis, there was a groundswell of love and respect for the fallen hero. The ending scene shows entire Metropolis in mourning. Shops and offices were empty as almost the entire population of the city joined with candles in their hands in front of his monument to pay their respects. There was a 21 canon salute by the US armed forces to respect him and they 'buried' him as a martyr.
> 
> The point is that when he was living he was divisive. And when dead he was universally loved. The films skips over that 'love affair'. Those 18 months. And because Superman has almost no presence in the movie while everyone seems to hate him one may arrive at this conclusion. It is wrong to say he was hated by everyone. (They could have shown this better imo).


About the statue. Yeah it's obvious what the point of it was, but it was unearned in my opinion. As you say, he was divisive. Therefore he did not deserve a statue in his name. That is an absolute disrespect to those that actually lost their lives in the Battle of Metropolis. The same goes for when he died. There is only that much outpour because the last moments of BvS are inspired by the Death of Superman story arc (in visuals only) and not on an actual story that makes sense on established narratives. And frankly, the statue is only put in that movie so that Zack Snyder can shove in more religious symbolism and have a character paint "FALSE GOD" on it. Who even talks about the bloody thing? Superman doesn't even acknowledge it, or act like he is proud of it.

----------


## Elmo

> Is anyone's theatre doing a double/triple bill with BvS and or MoS?


Just Wonder Woman and JL back to back showings

----------


## Angelo2113

> Is anyone's theatre doing a double/triple bill with BvS and or MoS?


No but I don't mind that because, when I watch BvS, I always watch the Ultimate Edition. I doubt theaters would have that.

----------


## Soubhagya

> About the statue. Yeah it's obvious what the point of it was, but it was unearned in my opinion. As you say, he was divisive. Therefore he did not deserve a statue in his name. That is an absolute disrespect to those that actually lost their lives in the Battle of Metropolis. The same goes for when he died. There is only that much outpour because the last moments of BvS are inspired by the Death of Superman story arc (in visuals only) and not on an actual story that makes sense on established narratives. And frankly, the statue is only put in that movie so that Zack Snyder can shove in more religious symbolism and have a character paint "FALSE GOD" on it. Who even talks about the bloody thing? Superman doesn't even acknowledge it, or act like he is proud of it.


Who said it makes sense? lol. 

Statue is never made of a living person. If a person is living it indicates that everyone desires it (or at least has no problems with it). I remember Superman Adventures the tie in comics to Superman TAS. The story 'How Much A Man Can Hate?' had a statue erected while Superman was still operating. (Superman did not appear at its inauguration). Famous ones like 'Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?' had one after his death. Yes it makes no sense in real world logic.

Yet i am trying to do this according to the logic the film tries to give us. (Which is not much frankly). There is one line by Perry  White. 'End of world's love affair of Superman'. We are to assume that before the desert incident he was almost universally loved. It was that incident when the opinion turned from generally favorable to divisive. That happens 18 months after The Metropolis Battle. Till that time we are to assume that he was 'not divisive'.

At the same time we shall not be too strict with Superman. He *saved* the world. People seem to forget that fact. Most damage of Metropolis was due to the World Engine over Metropolis. The Engine was destroyed by the efforts of military with the 'crucial' help of Superman. The final damage was due to the Zod fight. Fans complain the most about that. We forget that we are seeing Superman fight for the first time. He never fought before in his life. He learnt flying a few days before. While being outmatched and outgunned he did his best. 

The blame lies on Zod and his army not on Superman. If you wish, look at the fight between Zod and Superman again. He was not punching Zod through buildings. He was being thrown through the buildings. He was totally outmatched in that fight. He was fighting an enemy equal to his power but with superior training. I hate that he killed Zod. Its one of the film maker's decisions i can never agree with. Yet, as a decision made within the limits of the narrative i can understand.


The main problem lies with the fact that the aftermath is not shown. This is why it feels odd that they erected a statue. 

In reality they knew he saved them. It is easy to blame Zod's aides as the ones at fault by the citizens of Metropolis. (And they are not wrong). Only one who thought him to be the enemy is Bruce. He accepted that Superman is doing good. But there is one percent chance that he is the enemy...(laughable logic. Though makes a tiny bit of sense from his pov). We never saw Superman operating in between the 18 months. (He might have even helped rebuild the city. Who knows?). Someone who is divisive can't get a statue in that site. People would protest. It should be controversial. The statue would never be erected, unless the people had no problems with it. There must have been people who loved him and looked up as a Messiah figure/legend. Others were silent. So, i guess he was accepted by everyone as a friend and well-wisher of Metropolis.

It makes no sense if we think in terms of real world logic. But the fact that the statue exists in the heart of Metropolis proves that he was loved widely. (Till that desert incident).

----------


## Punisher007

> Or "screw continuity when it doesn't make a damn bit of sense for the character in question."
> 
> Wonder Woman is NOT weak enough, cowardly enough, or self-absorbed enough to completely abandon mankind to "a century of horrors" just because she lost her boyfriend. That goes completely against EVERY portrayal of her character. 
> 
> Would she be sad for a bit? Sure. Would she refuse to lift a finger to help other people in need for a full century until two dudes basically shame her into pulling her head out of her ass and doing something useful again? Nope.



Basically Snyder wanted it for his story.  But then DC/WB perhaps realized that it might tie their hands creatively/wrote them into a corner moving forward a bit. 

 They could split the difference and say that she was still helping, but that she was being more covert/less obvious about it post-WWI. And also working alone (whereas she was part of a team in WWI).

----------


## Angelo2113

Even though she said she gave up on humanity, she still had all her "Wonder Woman" gear and weapons with her in Metropolis.

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## Clark_Kent

> Basically Snyder wanted it for his story.  But then DC/WB perhaps realized that it might tie their hands creatively/wrote them into a corner moving forward a bit. 
> 
>  They could split the difference and say that she was still helping, but that she was being more covert/less obvious about it post-WWI. And also working alone (whereas she was part of a team in WWI).


Thats actually how I had assumed she operated since walking out of BvS opening day. Bruce mentione finding the others like her (i.e., bringing them together for some type of public thing), and she mentions that she walked away from mankind. I took that to mean Wonder Woman, the public in the light persona, walked away. Essentially doing the opposite of Clark (Clark helped people in secret before going public, Diana helped people in WW1 before helping in secret). And then when they announced a WW sequel, possibly set during the Cold War which was full of spies & espionage, it cemented the idea in my mind. So Im actually surprised Gadot had to address it, because it already made sense to me. Maybe I had missed something. In my mind, her timeline was like this:

 Debuts in WW1. Becomes disillusioned a bit with man. 
 Spends 100 years helping people in secret; this is why the world is surprised with Supermans arrival. They wouldnt have been concerned much if WW was active. 
 Comes out of hiding in BvS. 
 Present Day. 

I think its as simple as that, really. And if the sequel is during the Cold War, it doesnt really change it. Or, we are all overthinking 1 line of dialogue in a 3 hour movie :P

----------


## Lightning Rider

Yeah I think it's simple enough to still make sense if you fill in the blanks. She definitely didn't come out of the Steve Trevor WW1 experience being a public hero given her absence in MoS so there was some sort of retreat or half step back.

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## Angelo2113

The 1980's/Cold War is actually the best continuation for Diana's secrecy among mankind. Who all from World War I survived to even remember her during the war and/or on the battlefield? Who would even believe the soldiers on the front lines that an Amazonian Woman helped them capture enemy territory? The only actual evidence was that photo. It will be interesting to see how they explain World War II though.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The 1980's/Cold War is actually the best continuation for Diana's secrecy among mankind. Who all from World War I survived to even remember her during the war and/or on the battlefield? Who would even believe the soldiers on the front lines that an Amazonian Woman helped them capture enemy territory? The only actual evidence was that photo. It will be interesting to see how they explain World War II though.


Maybe she participated initially but then had to defend Paradise Island from Axis soldiers, and decided to step back to stop it from being discovered again.

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## TooFlyToFail

> I forgot to add the little disclaimer that everything I typed (and I am going to type now) was my opinion and I did copy and paste that comment from another website I left it on, so I apologise if I was a little aggressive. I was when I first typed it. Nevertheless...
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps 'proof' is a strong word but I firmly believe it should have been. She has the most relevant history out of all the current members of the JL and she's been alive for the longest whilst interacting with people. Even if she's a myth, it would be cool if she was sort of seen as the first hero in the world kinda like how Cap is in the MCU.
> 
> 
> 
> Until it comes out that she was away for some good reason, I fail to see why that has to be the automatic assumption other than they didn't think it through that well. Which goes back a little bit to my first point, that the universe should have been built around her existence. 
> ...


1) She doesn't have to be seen as the first hero, especially since there were no civilian witnesses left after WWI, and the German soldiers would likely attribute her to just seeing crazy shit during times of war. Besides the movie is enough like Cap 1, as it is.

2) It can be the automatic assumption, because we don't know where she was, or what she was doing. Like Agent Z said, in the MCU the other Avengers don't show up during their crazy solo adventures, yet I don't see you talking about them not having constructed their universe properly.

You talk about wanting a hero that's purely good, even if it's not realistic, yet complain about this even tho this happens in the comics you read, and the MCU movies you watch. So should Superman be apart of every solo DC movie to help? Because, realistically, why would he not, right?

3) I can turn this back on you. Just because she's a fictional hero character doesn't mean that she needs to be unrealistically good. Just because YOU think that she's got to be a super good person to make you feel good for liking her, doesn't mean she has to be. People read comics for escapism, and entertainment, yes, but, like either tv, books, video games, and movies, they're also read if they tell good stories. A lot of people watched the Sopranos, the Wire, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, the Walking Dead, etc, just like a lot of those same people watch good feel stuff.

Also, I think it radiates more to see how a character achieves that sense of great moral justice in an amoral world. Seeing them struggle with it, maybe even give up on it, but then reasonably come back to those beliefs stronger than ever, despite all the reason not to is more inspiring, than just automatically being good. I mean why aspire to be like someone you can't be like? Everyone struggles, and seeing someone start off like us, and struggle like us, still strive to be good gives us little, to no, excuse not to at least try.

4) Wanda got Sokovia destroyed because she was in her feelings. She also purposely sent the Hulk to attack a city of civilians. How has Batfleck done anything even remotely close to as bad as that? The only truly bad thing he did was try to kill Supes, and steal kryptonite. Besides that he killed people actively trying to kill him.

He's also been through far more than Wanda could imagine, and has 20+ years of crime fighting under his belt. Please, I get he's not the purely heroic DCAU Batman, but he's done leagues more good that Wanda has. 

5) Even if it's not, Black Widow's releasing of Hydra info to the public never gets addressed. Wanda's actions in AoU don't get addressed. 

6) How is it disrespect? He's the reason why there's still a Metropolis left. We know that he was loved by people, until the reality that he could/would attack/kill civilians became a possibility. Until then it's clear that he was only devisive when it came politics, and really only among government officials, poltical pundits, and people in the science world. Joe Schmoe had no reason to care until he heard Superman killed innocents.

While it definitely could've been displayed better (MoS2, where you at?), the story is clearly a you don't know what you've got until it's gone scenario. Crime and tragedy is clearly more recurring in this world than in our world and he stopped a lot of things, and saved a lot of people who would've died without his help. 

There's also the factor of complacency. The world clearly got used to him saving everyone, and now has to get used to not having him around anymore.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Maybe she participated initially but then had to defend Paradise Island from Axis soldiers, and decided to step back to stop it from being discovered again.


Queen Hippolyta told her that she could never return. I don't know if that was either the Queen banishing her or if it has something to do with magic. There's so many possibilities though. I'm just interested on what they come up with because I really liked how they handled Wonder Woman in World War I. World War II would really give them the "ultimate hatred."

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## TooFlyToFail

> Or "screw continuity when it doesn't make a damn bit of sense for the character in question."
> 
> Wonder Woman is NOT weak enough, cowardly enough, or self-absorbed enough to completely abandon mankind to "a century of horrors" just because she lost her boyfriend. That goes completely against EVERY portrayal of her character. 
> 
> Would she be sad for a bit? Sure. Would she refuse to lift a finger to help other people in need for a full century until two dudes basically shame her into pulling her head out of her ass and doing something useful again? Nope.


Its not just she list Trevor, as she saw what the UN did to Germany following WWI, she saw the horrors of WW2, she's been around for the Vietnamese, Korean and Cold Wars, she's likely heard of the genocides in Africa, of poltical sabotages committed, of the shit that goes down in the middle east (by the foreigners, and its inhabitants), etc.

She's been watching Aries be right for over 100 years, but likely decided that attacks from otherworldly beings is something she can't ignore, and likely regrets not getting involved with Zod's invasion.

That's why her fighting Doomsday now makes sense. So no, it's not just that her boyfriend died. She likely saw humanity as a lost cause, but kept somewhat trying, and her suit, because she hoped deep down Aries was wrong. Problem is that he wasn't. Also, seeing Batman come back from his darkness, and seeing Superman die for people who began to turn their backs on him, with a smile, probably helped her think it's worth one more try. Still, she has doubts in JL still.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Its not just she list Trevor, as she saw what the UN did to Germany following WWI, she saw the horrors of WW2, she's been around for the Vietnamese, Korean and Cold Wars, she's likely heard of the genocides in Africa, of poltical sabotages committed, of the shit that goes down in the middle east (by the foreigners, and its inhabitants), etc.
> 
> She's been watching Aries be right for over 100 years, but likely decided that attacks from otherworldly beings is something she can't ignore, and likely regrets not getting involved with Zod's invasion.
> 
> That's why her fighting Doomsday now makes sense. So no, it's not just that her boyfriend died. She likely saw humanity as a lost cause, but kept somewhat trying, and her suit, because she hoped deep down Aries was wrong. Problem is that he wasn't. Also, seeing Batman come back from his darkness, and seeing Superman die for people who began to turn their backs on him, with a smile, probably helped her think it's worth one more try. Still, she has doubts in JL still.


She said she walked away 100 years ago. That means she walked away right after World War I. Her experiences there were all she needed to decide humanity wasn't worth helping. Everything that happened later didn't influence her to walk away. She'd already made that decision before WW II was even on the horizon.

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## Punisher007

Yeah it's the "100 years ago" part that throws a wrench into things.  And given how, well pretty much everyone else is characterized in that film (IE bitter, cynical, burnout, world-weary, etc), it's not surprising that most people interpreted it as "she just walked away from everything for 100 years."  Maybe that was Snyder's intention, or maybe not (but if it was the latter then he did a poor job of conveying that to the audience it would seem).

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

source: https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...97714362220544

Joe Manganiello teases something Deathstroke.

----------


## Thomas Crown

IF that John Campea guy is to be believed, looks like Warner Bros mutilated Zack's movie AGAIN, this time with Joss Whedon's help.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> IF that John Campea guy is to be believed, looks like Warner Bros mutilated Zack's movie AGAIN, this time with Joss Whedon's help.


Just saw his review is on youtube. Is it spoilery?

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Just saw his review is on youtube. Is it spoilery?


He claims that his "sources" told him that "Justice League" was supposed to be longer, before Zack stepped down. Not three hours long, like BvS, but way longer than just two hours. Then Whedon shortened it cutting off a lot of Zack's footage, following a Warner Bros' mandate. And the additional shooting was to fill in the "gaps" left in the overall narrative following the cuts. I know that Campea is not exactly the most trustworthy of the bloggers, but unfortunely a lot of what he said is plausible.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> He claims that his "sources" told him that "Justice League" was supposed to be longer, before Zack stepped down. Not three hours long, like BvS, but way longer than just two hours. Then Whedon shortened it cutting off a lot of Zack's footage, following a Warner Bros' mandate. And the additional shooting was to fill the "gaps" left in the overall narrative following the cuts. I know that Campea is not exactly the most trustworthy of the bloggers, but unfortunely a lot of what he said is plausible.


This is in line with a lot of the world building stuff being cut out which was reported earlier. At least this time they had a director who could fill in the gaps, unlike BvS where it was just chopping.

----------


## El_Gato

https://mobile.twitter.com/AquamanSh...96907608911872

Next 5 DC films after Aquaman confirmed! Makes sense seeing as how 3 of them are confirmed to go into production next year.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> IF that John Campea guy is to be believed, looks like Warner Bros mutilated Zack's movie AGAIN, this time with Joss Whedon's help.


Snyder movies never do amazing with critics yet WB wants their DC movies to have Marvel type rotten tomato scores and word of mouth.  It is surprising that they stayed with Snyder given this knowledge and history.   Clearly the trust between WB and Snyder is not what they are saying in public.  We'll know the truth in a couple of years I suppose.  If JL had a lot of "fat" in it as BvS did then I am fine with cuts being made.  If he had lengthy scenes that were added on a whim ( because he thought it was cool) as he did with BvS then it should be cut.  I'm no Snyder hater in any way, but there is also no way that any version of BvS was a masterpiece as some claim (only on here.)  Even if JL is amazing I wouldn't be shocked if its highest rotten tomato or Metacritic score is an even 70.  His best has been 65... Critics just don't necessarily like HIS movies.




> This is in line with a lot of the world building stuff being cut out which was reported earlier. At least this time they had a director who could fill in the gaps, unlike BvS where it was just chopping.


The film's length isn't what worries me at all.  Lifting the review embargo til the day before it premieres is a more troubling sign.

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## manofsteel1979

> https://mobile.twitter.com/AquamanSh...96907608911872
> 
> Next 5 DC films after Aquaman confirmed! Makes sense seeing as how 3 of them are confirmed to go into production next year.


and yet no MOS 2. That's disappointing.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> and yet no MOS 2. That's disappointing.


I'd like to know what is the planned release date for Flashpoint.  Clemmons is now a series regular on Tribeca.  I wonder how they will work out her schedule or if they recast.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...c-hero-1049616

Zachary Levi cast as Shazam

----------


## Vinsanity

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...c-hero-1049616
> 
> Zachary Levi cast as Shazam


Cool. I can really see it.

----------


## Thomas Crown

You know, I'm amazed how some people here are totally okay with a director having his work screw up by the studio...as long as it's Zack Snyder. In this case, they always think "it was for the best". Jeez...

----------


## Frontier

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...c-hero-1049616
> 
> Zachary Levi cast as Shazam


I never would've thought of it, but I can actually see him as the Big Red Cheese  :Smile: .

----------


## Black_Adam

Great casting for Shazam! Zach is a huge gamer and comic book fan not to mention an awesome guy.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Aquaman footage was apparently shown. Ugh I want to see something too!
Screenshot_2017-10-27-18-39-32.jpg

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## Krypto's Fleas

> and yet no MOS 2. That's disappointing.


I agree. I roll my eyes so hard whenever I see anything related to "Suicide Squad 2." Superman, in this new hopeful DCEU, needs his own solo outing.

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## Krypto's Fleas

> You know, I'm amazed how some people here are totally okay with a director having his work screw up by the studio...as long as it's Zack Snyder. In this case, they always think "it was for the best". Jeez...


With MOS he was left to his own devices and the audience was divided. With BvS the studio came in and cut a down of stuff to get it down to 3 hours. Now with JL the studio cut out all the world building stuff and had Whedon reshoot to fill in the gaps. To me, it just seems obvious that WB should have realized a while ago that they can't get on the same page with Snyder and should have done the right thing and parted ways before JL got too far down a path.

----------


## El_Gato

> I agree. I roll my eyes so hard whenever I see anything related to "Suicide Squad 2." Superman, in this new hopeful DCEU, needs his own solo outing.


Well that's what happens when SS costs less to make (135 vs 225) and makes more money, without China (745 vs 668), than MOS. WB/DC is still a business and money talks!

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## Johnny

Very pleased with the Shazam casting.

----------


## Buried Alien

Word out of China about JUSTICE LEAGUE is almost unbelievably positive.  What was the reaction from China last year on BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Johnny

Edit. Nevermind.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Well that's what happens when SS costs less to make (135 vs 225) and makes more money, without China (745 vs 668), than MOS. WB/DC is still a business and money talks!



There is no momentum for SS 2. The first one was utterly terrible. While it made $745 million, the "rewatchable metrics" Box Office Mojo puts out suggest that a sequel would return less than half of the original's audience. Further, it benefitted from the DCEU being an actual thing that WB committed to and the excitement of a connected universe helped it get figures larger that MOS. Bottom line, Superman has got to get back on the big screen and in a way that isn't boring (Superman Returns) or controversial (MOS).

----------


## Angelo2113

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...c-hero-1049616
> 
> Zachary Levi cast as Shazam


Wow, that's actually great casting. On paper it sounds crazy but I think they can do wonderful things with it.




> This is in line with a lot of the world building stuff being cut out which was reported earlier. At least this time they had a director who could fill in the gaps, unlike BvS where it was just chopping.


Hopefully they leave the first act alone. Cutting the first act in Batman v. Superman made absolutely no sense when the entire movie was built around that.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Its disappointing to not see MoS2 on that list. However, if rumors are true and Superman guest-stars in Shazam!, then maybe WB is taking a wait-and-see approach. If audiences enjoy Superman in both Justice League and Shazam!, Im sure well see a sequel greenlit. 

As for Flashpoint, IF it is anything like the comics storyline then I see this getting reworked into a JL sequel (Justice League: Flashpoint). I dont think they bring in Gadot, Mamoa, Fisher, Affleck, Cavill, and perhaps even Morgan & whats-her-name, while keeping it a Flash movie. I think this gets renamed. However, if it goes more inthe direction of the tv show (i.e., Barrys time altering only affects Central City characters) then I could see it remain the way it is. But my gut tells me it becomes a Justice League movie.

----------


## Denirac

> It’s disappointing to not see MoS2 on that list. However, if rumors are true and Superman guest-stars in Shazam!, then maybe WB is taking a wait-and-see approach. If audiences enjoy Superman in both Justice League and Shazam!, I’m sure we’ll see a sequel greenlit. 
> 
> As for Flashpoint, IF it is anything like the comics storyline then I see this getting reworked into a JL sequel (Justice League: Flashpoint). I don’t think they bring in Gadot, Mamoa, Fisher, Affleck, Cavill, and perhaps even Morgan & whats-her-name, while keeping it a Flash movie. I think this gets renamed. However, if it goes more inthe direction of the tv show (i.e., Barry’s time altering only affects Central City characters) then I could see it remain the way it is. But my gut tells me it becomes a Justice League movie.


Morgan hinted that he'll be Flashpoint Batman for the Movie when he was on Jimmy Kimmel Live last night.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TjnVtfUl6uU

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Word out of China about JUSTICE LEAGUE is almost unbelievably positive.  What was the reaction from China last year on BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I’m pretty sure it was the same.

----------


## Badou

> https://mobile.twitter.com/AquamanSh...96907608911872
> 
> Next 5 DC films after Aquaman confirmed! Makes sense seeing as how 3 of them are confirmed to go into production next year.


No Batgirl is surprising. I thought that was going to go into production next year.

----------


## Ascended

> No Batgirl is surprising. I thought that was going to go into production next year.


Who knows? These clowns keep changing their minds, chasing off directors.....

Is that Cyborg movie still supposed to happen? I heard it wasnt, then someone at WB said it was.....and we've heard nothing about it since.

They said a year or so ago that Man of Steel 2 was gonna be a thing.....fairly recently they said it again......but its not listed as going into production next year. 

I have zero faith in DC/WB when it comes to film. Wonder Woman's success was all Patty Jenkins, and unless they hire her to godmother the whole DCEU the way Kevin Feige does Marvel, I have little hope that anything will change any time soon.

----------


## Johnny

No Cyborg. No Green Lantern. No Man of Steel 2. Meh.

----------


## Soubhagya

> https://mobile.twitter.com/AquamanSh...96907608911872
> 
> Next 5 DC films after Aquaman confirmed! Makes sense seeing as how 3 of them are confirmed to go into production next year.


Where is MoS2? Its disappointing.  :Frown:

----------


## Buried Alien

> Where is MoS2? Its disappointing.


WB/DC isn't *still* trying to hide the fact that Superman is returning in JUSTICE LEAGUE, is it?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Soubhagya

> WB/DC isn't *still* trying to hide the fact that Superman is returning in JUSTICE LEAGUE, is it?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Its possible. But Henry Cavill is in the promotional tour in China with everyone. This 'hiding Superman theory' (which i use to console myself) is becoming more and more unlikely.

----------


## El_Gato

> No Cyborg. No Green Lantern. No Man of Steel 2. Meh.


I don't think Superman or Cyborg are going to get a solo film anytime soon. They'll be The Hulk, Black Widow, and Hawkeye of the League, meaning only appearing in JL/event films or cameos in other films. Just a hunch though. 

As for GLC, 2021 seems like the earliest we'll get that considering it'll be 10 years after the Ryan Reynolds film.

I wonder what will happen if Aquaman and Shazam are as successful as Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad? Surely WB will make room for sequels in that scenario, right? Then there's Batman's inevitable trilogy and several spinoffs (Gotham City Sirens, Deathstroke, Batgirl, and Nightwing)... WB has their hands full!

----------


## Johnny

> I don't think Superman or Cyborg are going to get a solo film anytime soon. They'll be The Hulk, Black Widow, and Hawkeye of the League, meaning only appearing in JL/event films or cameos in other films. Just a hunch though.


If true, that would suck, bruh.




> As for GLC, 2021 seems like the earliest we'll get that considering it'll be 10 years after the Ryan Reynolds film.


Sure, WB proved long ago they have no balls whatsoever when it comes to GL. On one hand I can't entirely blame them for being wary about promoting a brand that THEY destroyed, on the other I find them really pathetic. But hey, it's their money. I do look forward to Aquaman and Shazam tho.

----------


## Black_Adam

> No Batgirl is surprising. I thought that was going to go into production next year.


Johns said Whedon was going to start to work on Batgirl next year he hasn't even written the script yet, too busy with JL.

Also I'm very confident they will announced MoS2 after Justice League, just be patient guys...

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't think Superman or Cyborg are going to get a solo film anytime soon. They'll be The Hulk, Black Widow, and Hawkeye of the League, meaning only appearing in JL/event films or cameos in other films. Just a hunch though. 
> 
> As for GLC, 2021 seems like the earliest we'll get that considering it'll be 10 years after the Ryan Reynolds film.
> 
> I wonder what will happen if Aquaman and Shazam are as successful as Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad? Surely WB will make room for sequels in that scenario, right? Then there's Batman's inevitable trilogy and several spinoffs (Gotham City Sirens, Deathstroke, Batgirl, and Nightwing)... WB has their hands full!


Superman a supporting character like Black Widow/Hulk without his own film. I never thought i would see a day like this. I am not speaking about the day it will happen if it happens. But the fact that this is a possibilty. That fans have started talking.

More films will be announced. Batgirl will happen. Heard of Deathstroke. Nightwing is in works. This list is not final.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

People need to keep in mind that a lot of these “announcements” of films is about drumming up excitement from investors to help seal the deal for the AT&T merger.

----------


## Angelo2113

Apparently the full slate of title logos shown by Warner Bros. at the Paris Comic Con are...

Suicide Squad 2
The Batman
Shazam
Flashpoint
Wonder Woman 2
Green Lantern Corps.
Batgirl
Gotham City Sirens

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Apparently the full slate of title logos shown by Warner Bros. at the Paris Comic Con are...
> 
> Suicide Squad 2
> The Batman
> Shazam
> Flashpoint
> Wonder Woman 2
> Green Lantern Corps.
> Batgirl
> Gotham City Sirens


Is there any news/rumors about who will be in SS2

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Apparently the full slate of title logos shown by Warner Bros. at the Paris Comic Con are...
> 
> Suicide Squad 2
> The Batman
> Shazam
> Flashpoint
> Wonder Woman 2
> Green Lantern Corps.
> Batgirl
> Gotham City Sirens


If I'm remembering things correctly, this seems to be pretty much the slate that was at SD Comic-Con only Gotham City Sirens has replaced Justice League Dark.

(Man, I can't believe we might be getting a movie of Harley and her gal pals shaking their butts or something before a Superman sequel or a true Flash solo)

----------


## TitanMax

> I don't think Superman or Cyborg are going to get a solo film anytime soon. They'll be The Hulk, Black Widow, and Hawkeye of the League, meaning only appearing in JL/event films or cameos in other films. Just a hunch though.


But that's dumb really really dumb, but dumb decisions in the DCEU don't exactly surprise me by this point.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Is there any news/rumors about who will be in SS2


I don't believe so which is surprising if that's being planned so soon.




> If I'm remembering things correctly, this seems to be pretty much the slate that was at SD Comic-Con only Gotham City Sirens has replaced Justice League Dark.
> 
> (Man, I can't believe we might be getting a movie of Harley and her gal pals shaking their butts or something before a Superman sequel or a true Flash solo)


I wouldn't boil Gotham City Sirens down to gal pals shaking their butts. While Superman does deserve his own solo sequel, he's been the main subject/inspiration for 4 out of the 5 movies.

----------


## Buried Alien

> While Superman does deserve his own solo sequel, he's been the main subject/inspiration for 4 out of the 5 movies.


This is what I'm thinking too. Superman IS the flagship character of DC Comics (yeah, sorry Bats), but he's been the subject of multiple movies dating all the way back to the 1940s.  I think DCEU is more eager to try to showcase the wealth of DC characters that have never been in movies before.  I can see the logic in that thinking.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lex Luthor

I get why Superman wouldn't get a sequel even though I'd like one. His character has been divisive at best for the past few years(at least in movies) and he's already had a solo film plus another feature film he was in and is making his comeback in JL. The best bet though is they are holding off announcing it as to not ruin the plot of JL but we'll see.

----------


## Robotman

While I like the idea that the DCEU will be predominantly stand alone films (it makes it so we won’t have anymore confusion like we currently have with Wonder Woman’s history), it does worry me that there isn’t any current plans for anymore teamup movies after Justice League. I really want to see Darkseid in all his evil glory and not just some hint of him or a one and done. There is potential for a New Gods movie but I don’t think they have any immediate plans. I would just love for Darkseid to be established as a looming threat in the DCEU, but for that to happen there would have to be more interconnected stories. 

I’m still worried that the League is going to knock him out in the last 5 minutes of the film.

----------


## Badou

3 Harley movies before a new Superman movie. That is just crazy to think about.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't believe so which is surprising if that's being planned so soon.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't boil Gotham City Sirens down to gal pals shaking their butts. While Superman does deserve his own solo sequel, he's been the main subject/inspiration for 4 out of the 5 movies.


Superman is subject/inspiration for 4 out of 5 movies. Pardon me but i don't agree with you. He had one movie MoS. 2nd movie BvS simply used his name. And 3rd movie JL has him benched for most of the movie. People arrived in droves to see Batman and Superman fight in BvS. But for someone with his name on the poster, he was simply a supporting character if i am being kind to them.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I'd be down for a Cavill/Adams Superman sequel. Them at the Daily Planet investigating, maybe an Intergang/Apokolips connection but fans probably want Supes finally to cut loose in the next flick.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You know, I'm amazed how some people here are totally okay with a director having his work screw up by the studio...as long as it's Zack Snyder. In this case, they always think "it was for the best". Jeez...


I'm actually not okay with it myself. In the end, though, I just want more DC films being made by WB. If it means a course correction, then so be it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> 2nd movie BvS simply used his name.


That's objectively not true.




> ...he was simply a supporting character if i am being kind to them.


I find that an exaggeration as well. Even if you want to count Bruce Wayne/Batman as the sole protagonist, Superman was firmly the deuteragonist. And I feel that's still downplaying his prominence and role in the film.

----------


## Soubhagya

> That's objectively not true.
> 
> 
> 
> I find that an exaggeration as well. Even if you want to count Bruce Wayne/Batman as the sole protagonist, Superman was firmly the deuteragonist. And I feel that's still downplaying his prominence and role in the film.


I am not speaking about the Ultimate Cut. I am speaking about the Theatrical Cut. The one which people were supposed to see in theaters. I am considering the screen time and the amount of dialogue. Most would agree about the screen time. I am posting something regarding dialogue. Apparently he had 43 lines throughout the 2.5 hr movie (42 if you do not count his last scream).

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Gues...an-125667.html

The lines in detail. (Including that last scream!)

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...s_of_dialogue/

Someone who is apparently the second most important character in the movie (Second because his name comes later. And its expected that Batman will get more screen time this being his 1st film) is barely a supporting character. (I have the right to feel cheated!). How was it sold to the general audience? Come see Batman v Superman! 

If you speak of his importance then yes he is important just as Luke Skywalker was important in 'The Force Awakens'. Would you expect 'The Last Jedi' will have Luke's screen time so comically reduced? Superman was barely a character but more the plot.

This was supposed to be his sequel. Then it was morphed into Batman with Superman to set the foundation of Justice League. Next when they made the movie Superman had some role. But the movie was 3 hours. What did they cut? Clark Kent and Lois Lane's scenes. What did they keep? The numerous goofy dreams of Batman. Maybe, i am exaggerating that he was not a supporting character. But then at best i can say this much that he is a supporting character. BvS and JL are not Superman films.

We can of course argue if number of lines are important or not. But Superman is supposed to be one of the Trinity. He has fans around the world. Even films like 'Superman Returns' earned more then 'Batman Begins' back then. MoS earned 666 mn. It is fine if they want to make films with all types of characters. But i am not okay if they never make a Superman sequel with him as the lead. Henry Cavill and Amy Adams are pretty good. Why waste them in supporting roles or less?

I would see both Gotham City Sirens as well as Man Of Steel 2.  :Smile:  Why is DC not taking twice from my wallet!

----------


## HandofPrometheus

If we're getting a SS2 they better go with Ostrander's team and tone if they want to win viewers again. Just like how Captain America 1 went from a typical origin film to a action heavy spy thriller in the sequel. Good bye to the old team. My team would be Bronze Tiger, Vixen, Nightshade, Count Vertigo, Plastique, Mirror Master, and Bane or Poison Ivy. I don't think you need to waste any team members. Amp up the risk but also have consequences on the mission. I think having members who are good and some who are bad is good enough to create toxic chemistry between them. 

Superman not getting another film is dissapointing but expected. We'll see if they know what to do with him after Justice League.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I would see both Gotham City Sirens as well as Man Of Steel 2.  Why is DC not taking twice from my wallet!


Well, I doubt those are the only two DC movies you would watch so I think they'll be taking plenty from your wallet anyway.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I think Man of Steel 2 will happen eventually, even if not until 2020. Didn't Matthew Vaughn say he was in talks?

Also for some perspective, Superman has had 6 theatrical films even if you want to exclude BvS. And a ton of other media fare _over decades_. Every other DC fandom which is not Batman wants to see their character/brand finally get the chance that Superman/Batman always got. If others could wait for entire lifetimes just for one movie, I think it's not asking much of the Superman fandom to wait for another couple of years or so for a sequel.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Well, I doubt those are the only two DC movies you would watch so I think they'll be taking plenty from your wallet anyway.  I think Man of Steel 2 will happen eventually, even if not until 2020. Didn't Matthew Vaughn say he was in talks?
> 
> Also for some perspective, Superman has had 6 theatrical films even if you want to exclude BvS. And a ton of other media fare _over decades_. Every other DC fandom which is not Batman wants to see their character/brand finally get the chance that Superman/Batman always got. If others could wait for entire lifetimes just for one movie, I think it's not asking much of the Superman fandom to wait for another couple of years or so for a sequel.


Of course not! There are more films by which DC can rob me. I mentioned Gotham City Sirens because their posteriors came up during discussion. Frustration over lack of a Superman sequel is natural. We have such a fine Lois Lane. Actors are neat but the scripts are down. It is strange that DC won't make a Superman movie without giving a fair chance to win over the audience. The films are divisive over critics and fans. They are financially sound. Meaning audience will accept it. If 'Superman Returns' can earn that much what if they actually make a good movie? (Accepted by both fans and critics). This is Superman we are speaking about. One of the most popular characters ever. 

What else can i do but wait? Maybe 2020!

----------


## Frontier

> If we're getting a SS2 they better go with Ostrander's team and tone if they want to win viewers again. Just like how Captain America 1 went from a typical origin film to a action heavy spy thriller in the sequel. Good bye to the old team. My team would be Bronze Tiger, Vixen, Nightshade, Count Vertigo, Plastique, Mirror Master, and Bane or Poison Ivy. I don't think you need to waste any team members. Amp up the risk but also have consequences on the mission. I think having members who are good and some who are bad is good enough to create toxic chemistry between them. 
> 
> Superman not getting another film is dissapointing but expected. We'll see if they know what to do with him after Justice League.


There's no way Harley is not going to be in this. 

She was the most marketed and standout character in the first movie.

----------


## Robotman

> If we're getting a SS2 they better go with Ostrander's team and tone if they want to win viewers again. Just like how Captain America 1 went from a typical origin film to a action heavy spy thriller in the sequel. Good bye to the old team. My team would be Bronze Tiger, Vixen, Nightshade, Count Vertigo, Plastique, Mirror Master, and Bane or Poison Ivy. I don't think you need to waste any team members. Amp up the risk but also have consequences on the mission. I think having members who are good and some who are bad is good enough to create toxic chemistry between them. 
> 
> Superman not getting another film is dissapointing but expected. We'll see if they know what to do with him after Justice League.


Sadly I don’t see them changing the tone or drastically changing the lineup. Despite the fact that Suicide Squad was a pretty horrible movie it still made a ton of money. So i don’t see WB course correcting with this one. 
But I would love to see Bronze Tiger added to the team!

----------


## dietrich

> If I'm remembering things correctly, this seems to be pretty much the slate that was at SD Comic-Con only Gotham City Sirens has replaced Justice League Dark.
> 
> (Man, I can't believe we might be getting a movie of Harley and her gal pals shaking their butts or something before a Superman sequel or a true Flash solo)


Well you must be a fan of the "Slap A Jap Era" Supes to say something so sexist at a time when Diana's "Butt Shake"/Movie just KOed Superman and Batman at the box office.

You might not think much of them but those are strong characters and Harley is a Juggernut. DC is a business first and foremost. If they can diversify and keep their finger in the pulse then why not. Harley is hot right now, WW has done wonders in breaking down walls surrounding female lead SH movies so you strike while the iron is hot.

Superman can wait let others get their movie.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I have no problem with other characters and franchises getting a shot. I just don't think that requires Superman being put on the back burner or ignored. You CAN have Suicide Squad sequels, Flashpoint, Shazam , alongside another Superman movie. I mean, Batman has had as many big screen movies as Supes yet you don't see anyone saying " Batman has had enough exposure. Let's make that Doom Patrol movie instead."

----------


## Soubhagya

> I have no problem with other characters and franchises getting a shot. I just don't think that requires Superman being put on the back burner or ignored. You CAN have Suicide Squad sequels, Flashpoint, Shazam , alongside another Superman movie. I mean, Batman has had as many big screen movies as Supes yet you don't see anyone saying " Batman has had enough exposure. Let's make that Doom Patrol movie instead."


I second that!!! DC/WB I command you! Give me Superman!

[IMG]https://*************.net/img/instances/63366797/pretty-please.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Vanguard-01

Honestly, what reason do we have to believe that that list is in any way a complete list? DC/WB has been promising a MOS sequel for about a year now. They can't be unaware of the fact that people don't trust them as fully as people trust the MCU at this point. Constantly making empty promises that they have no intention of keeping is NOT going to win them any extra trust. 

If they say they're working on it, I'm inclined to believe them. If they haven't announced a release date yet, then I'm inclined to assume there's a reason. Personally? I'm wondering if they're waiting to make an announcement until after Justice League drops. For one thing, the success or failure of Justice League may indeed change their plans considerably. If JL bombs, there may be no MOS 2 for quite some time because DC/WB may be re-thinking their entire movie strategy at that point. If it succeeds sufficiently to merit continuing to move forward, they may have several new announcements to make in a relatively short period of time. If it succeeds extremely well, we may see a LOT more announcements coming soon because that will mean that we've turned a corner and that the early problems of MOS, BvS, and SS are now well-behind us. 

So yeah, WB may be holding back announcing MOS 2 for that reason, or they could also be holding it back because they're still making at least a half-hearted attempt to maintain the "Superman is dead" attitude they've been maintaining since last year. Once he is well and truly back and the audience is aware of this? Now THAT'S the time to ride the wave and say "Yes, people! Not only is he back, he's got a sequel coming out in another year or two!"

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Sadly I don’t see them changing the tone or drastically changing the lineup. Despite the fact that Suicide Squad was a pretty horrible movie it still made a ton of money. So i don’t see WB course correcting with this one. 
> But I would love to see Bronze Tiger added to the team!


Ya, just wishful thinking lol. Honestly Rick Flag and I guess Deathstroke isn't needed. Ben can lead the team himself perfectly fine.




> There's no way Harley is not going to be in this. 
> 
> She was the most marketed and standout character in the first movie.


Oh yeah her...to be honest couldn't Poison Ivy still fill her role for being marketable? Poison Ivy can be as big as Harley. Reason I didn't include Harley because she's going to be in Gotham Sirens so I don't know if she would still be in jail.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Oh yeah her...to be honest couldn't Poison Ivy still fill her role for being marketable? Poison Ivy can be as big as Harley. Reason I didn't include Harley because she's going to be in Gotham Sirens so I don't know if she would still be in jail.


A person who was there claims that Ivy was teased for _Batgirl_ at the SDCC sneak peak of the slate in July. So the theory was she'd be introduced in Babs's movie before appearing in Sirens.

----------


## Styles



----------


## Styles



----------


## Robotman

I was worried they would make Cyborg too bulky (like Jim Lee’s design), but I think they actually made him too skinny. He looks kinda creepy with those tiny arms. Reminds me of the Ray Harryhausen skeletons from Sinbad.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> I was worried they would make Cyborg too bulky (like Jim Lee’s design), but I think they actually made him too skinny. He looks kinda creepy with those tiny arms. Reminds me of the Ray Harryhausen skeletons from Sinbad.


His arms being tiny make his hand cannons look weird. His overall figure looks frightening. I'm guessing his body is supposed to be based on a skeleton.

----------


## Johnny

Cyborg is supposed to look kind of creepy anyway and we shouldn't forget he still hasn't learned to control the mother box. Naturally everything he does during those preliminary stages is supposed to look weird both to Vic and to the audience. Maybe he would look bulkier in his next movie appearance.

----------


## Serpico Jones

The posters for this movie are fantastic.

----------


## Robotman

> Cyborg is supposed to look kind of creepy anyway and we shouldn't forget he still hasn't learned to control the mother box. Naturally everything he does during those preliminary stages is supposed to look weird both to Vic and to the audience. Maybe he would look bulkier in his next movie appearance.


Well there have been some clips that possibly show Vic going into an “armor mode”. When his whole face gets covered it looks as if his body also gets armored up.

----------


## Styles



----------


## Robotman

> 


Wow they added full color to Wonder Woman’s costume! I hope she looks like that by the end of the movie.

----------


## Lightning Rider

He actually says it. Not bad for Cyborg.

----------


## Frontier

> His arms being tiny make his hand cannons look weird. His overall figure looks frightening. I'm guessing his body is supposed to be based on a skeleton.


I wonder if the "Booyah" was still in Snyder's cut or a Whedon addition...



> 


Wow. Wonder Woman really looks like Wonder Woman when you actually let the colors of her costume show  :Big Grin: .

Aquaman in all green feels weird.

----------


## Johnny

> Aquaman in all green feels weird.


They don't have the actual green dude there, so they feel the need to compensate.

----------


## Frontier

> They don't have the actual green dude there, so they feel the need to compensate.


Well, the two green dudes, so he has to compensate for both  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Johnny

> Well, the two green dudes, so he has to compensate for both .


True.

----------


## Soubhagya

> True.


I wish those guys were in the movie. I miss the bald one. He is nowhere now. Is he in some far away book at this moment? Where is he?

----------


## Johnny

> I wish those guys were in the movie. I miss the bald one. He is nowhere now. Is he in some far away book at this moment? Where is he?


I guess the good Doctor must be hiding him somewhere too. Manhattan must've wanted Mars only for himself, he wouldn't want some green shapeshifter to disturb his brooding.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I guess the good Doctor must be hiding him somewhere too. Manhattan must've wanted Mars only for himself, he wouldn't want some green shapeshifter to disturb his brooding.


Oh the good doctor. I hope you are right.

----------


## El_Gato

> I wish those guys were in the movie. I miss the bald one. He is nowhere now. Is he in some far away book at this moment? Where is he?


He's on Supergirl as a main character, so he's still in the public eye. Comics are a different story though.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Flashpoint is not a sure thing and depends on Justice League’s success. Also, MoS 2 ain’t happening apparently. Source: http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/29/j...ovie-in-limbo/


This sucks.

----------


## Elmo

> I wish those guys were in the movie. I miss the bald one. He is nowhere now. Is he in some far away book at this moment? Where is he?


I don't think he's appeared at all in Rebirth. It sucks. He's a founding JL member and since the New 52 he's been some edgy outcast. That flashback in Johns' JL of him attacking the League made me so angry. 

I still don't buy Cyborg as a League member. Martian Manhunter and Hal Jordan would've been so perfect in this film. Also would have loved for that Black Canary rumor to have been true.

----------


## ross61

> Flashpoint is not a sure thing and depends on Justice Leagues success. Also, MoS 2 aint happening apparently. Source: http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/29/j...ovie-in-limbo/
> 
> 
> This sucks.


WB just reiterated Flashpoint at the latest con this weekend so its a sure thing. Theyve slowed down the director search because they have their sights set on Zameckis.

----------


## Elmo

> Flashpoint is not a sure thing and depends on Justice League’s success. Also, MoS 2 ain’t happening apparently. Source: http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/29/j...ovie-in-limbo/
> 
> 
> This sucks.


That does suck. MoS2 was something I was really looking forward to actually. I have a feeling we will get it eventually though. If JL is unsuccessful there's going to be a major shakeup regarding the DC films, bc they're obviously not gonna stop making them, there's just going to be some sort of shift in direction.

Despite that grim article; Aquaman is still coming out next year, and Shazam, WW2, and Suicide Squad 2 all start production next year.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That does suck. MoS2 was something I was really looking forward to actually. I have a feeling we will get it eventually though. If JL is unsuccessful there's going to be a major shakeup regarding the DC films, bc they're obviously not gonna stop making them, there's just going to be some sort of shift in direction.
> 
> Despite that grim article; Aquaman is still coming out next year, and Shazam, WW2, and Suicide Squad 2 all start production next year.


I don’t want a  Suicide Squad sequel. I want to see Flash and Superman and Green Lantern get solos in this new hopeful DCEU.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> 3 Harley movies before a new Superman movie. That is just crazy to think about.


Lets see we have had is some order-

3 GOTG movies
3 Blade movies
2 Punsher
3 Thor
3 Ironman
3 Captain America
3 Fantastic Four
4 Spider-Man
Manthing
Daredevil
Electka
Deadpool
Antman
With Miles Morales animated & Gambit on the way
Steel

Before we got Wonder Woman & Justice League-that speaks more volumes than Superman what number 8. The issue for DC is they have to expand beyond Superman & Batman.

So if taking time to get a right script for Superman is the issue-fine. Right now it should be about expanding that universe.

And yes that includes franchises that certain folks love to take issue with in comic book form. Doom Patrol, Blue Beetle, Flash, Static, anyone from Wildstorm, Sandman and so on.

They don't have to be 100 million budget films-50 million and lower is fine. Don't Michael Bay it for the heck of it.

----------


## Elmo

> I don’t want a  Suicide Squad sequel. I want to see Flash and Superman and Green Lantern get solos in this new hopeful DCEU.


I just mean that the DCEU isn't going anywhere. So just because we may not see these films as soon as we want, it doesn't mean they aren't going to be made.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Lets see we have had is some order-
> 
> 3 GOTG movies
> 3 Blade movies
> 2 Punsher
> 3 Thor
> 3 Ironman
> 3 Captain America
> 3 Fantastic Four
> ...


The issue for another Superman movie isn’t getting the script right. The issue is the studio doesn’t know how to make enough money off the character.

----------


## El_Gato

> I don't think he's appeared at all in Rebirth. It sucks. He's a founding JL member and since the New 52 he's been some edgy outcast. That flashback in Johns' JL of him attacking the League made me so angry. 
> 
> I still don't buy Cyborg as a League member. Martian Manhunter and Hal Jordan would've been so perfect in this film. Also would have loved for that Black Canary rumor to have been true.


You just know that with that 1960's JL line-up, the DCEU would have gotten even more clickbate hate articles asking "Why is the JL is so White?"or "Why is a movie about criminals (SS) more diverse than a movie about heroes (JL)?"... Honestly I hate that line-up, so I'm glad we didn't get it! Im just hoping more B-list characters get some time to shine in the DCEU. Less Supes/Bats and more B listers  :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> You just know that with that 1960's JL line-up, the DCEU would have gotten even more clickbate hate articles asking "Why is the JL is so White?"or "Why is a movie about criminals (SS) more diverse than a movie about heroes (JL)?"... Honestly I hate that line-up, so I'm glad we didn't get it! Im just hoping more B-list characters get some time to shine in the DCEU. Less Supes/Bats and more B listers


Well, Marvel got a similar complaint, so at least they'd be even on that front  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Elmo

> You just know that with that 1960's JL line-up, the DCEU would have gotten even more clickbate hate articles asking "Why is the JL is so White?"or "Why is a movie about criminals (SS) more diverse than a movie about heroes (JL)?"... Honestly I hate that line-up, so I'm glad we didn't get it! Im just hoping more B-list characters get some time to shine in the DCEU. Less Supes/Bats and more B listers


To be fair, given how much J'onn is portrayed as a black man I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route they took. That plus Momoa and Gadot's ethnicities would make articles like that kind of dumb. 

Sorry you hate the lineup. I grew up with those guys so they're my faves. Although I understand that today diversity is very important. I think the best solution is instead of changing the lineups of teams to be more diverse, is to instead push less popular but more diverse teams and characters to the public. I'm against race bending characters; I think bringing characters of different ethnicities out of obscurity is the better alternative.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Yeah I'm not buying the whole "MOS 2 isn't happening" story until I hear it from Geoff Johns, Jon Berg, or someone else very high up in the decision making process. Just seems like more attempts to convince us to abandon all hope so we'll give up on the DCEU.

----------


## Frontier

Honestly I think a lot of movie news or movie production for other DC properties is going to depend on how well _Justice League_ does at this point.

----------


## El_Gato

> To be fair, given how much J'onn is portrayed as a black man I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route they took. That plus Momoa and Gadot's ethnicities would make articles like that kind of dumb. 
> 
> Sorry you hate the lineup. I grew up with those guys so they're my faves. Although I understand that today diversity is very important. I think the best solution is instead of changing the lineups of teams to be more diverse, is to instead push less popular but more diverse teams and characters to the public. I'm against race bending characters; I think bringing characters of different ethnicities out of obscurity is the better alternative.


Hate is a strong word to use lol. I should have said I'm indifferent to the lineup and a bit biased since the JL I grew up with is the one that included Hawkgirl and John Stewart instead of Aquaman and Hal Jordan as founding members. 


Suicide Squad, Teen Titans and JLD/JLI can be pretty diverse teams and I hope the DCEU expands to included them (in SS case, continue to).

----------


## Johnny

> Hate is a strong word to use lol. I should have said I'm indifferent to the lineup and a bit biased since the JL I grew up with is the one that included Hawkgirl and John Stewart instead of Aquaman and Hal Jordan as founding members.


That's cool, the one I first stumbled upon had hook-handed Aquaman, the Electric Superman and Kyle Rayner. I'm not really begging for them to chop Jason Momoa's hand off or split Henry Cavill in red and blue. Gimme a good movie and I'm fine with it.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Justin Kroll from Variety says the test screenings for Justice League have been “really bad”...

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Justin Kroll from Variety says the test screenings for Justice League have been “really bad”...


Nothing is going to surprise me. This entire connected universe was rushed. Why would the premiere film to date get spared by the incompetence?

----------


## El_Gato

> Justin Kroll from Variety says the test screenings for Justice League have been “really bad”...


Any credibility to that? Or is it from a vague source? Guess we'll find out soon, considering critics start seeing it Wednesday and public screenings start on the 6th.

Edit: Also, lets not forget that Suicide Squad had positive test screening reactions, so I'd take that news with a grain of salt.

----------


## gbshabo

> Any credibility to that? Or is it from a vague source? Guess we'll find out soon, considering critics start seeing it Wednesday and public screenings start on the 6th.
> 
> Edit: Also, lets not forget that Suicide Squad had positive test screening reactions, so I'd take that news with a grain of salt.


no telling. Just remember, right before Wonder Woman's release we were hearing that Wonder Woman was a supposed mess. It looks like justice league will be getting advance screenings on november 9th. If this is credible then its a good sign that WB has a faith that it will be well received.

----------


## Frontier

Isn't Justin Kroll the guy who's always super-critical and negative about the DCEU?

----------


## Serpico Jones

Justin Kroll is the lead film reporter for Variety. He’s one of the best in the business.

----------


## Frontier

> Justin Kroll is the lead film reporter for Variety. He’s one of the best in the business.


I stand very corrected then...

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Justin Kroll is the lead film reporter for Variety. He’s one of the best in the business.


That in no way means he's unbiased or that he doesn't have a very different definition of a good screening than the rest of us.

----------


## Buried Alien

> That in no way means he's unbiased or that he doesn't have a very different definition of a good screening than the rest of us.


Just as importantly, what did he have to say about previous DCEU and MCU superhero films?  Does he dislike the genre on the whole?  Prefer one company's production over another's?  *Is pretty evenhanded and judges each film on its own merits?*

If he indeed one of the best in the business, he strives to do the *bolded.*

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

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## ross61

> Justin Kroll from Variety says the test screenings for Justice League have been really bad...


Just to note, those were early summer screening. Before Joss edit took place.

----------


## Soubhagya

If JL 'fails' i will lay the blame on BvS. What should have been an MoS sequel became a Justice League backdoor. There should have been a Batman movie before their team-up. A higher quality sequel to Man of Steel, which makes the audience demand for more of Superman. And a good foundation with: Two Superman films, one Batman, one Wonder Woman and a team up of the big three with the cameos thrown in would have made the audience hungry for Justice League. I don't see Suicide Squad to be a good choice to set up an interconnected movie universe like Marvel.

I don't agree that Superman does not make them enough money. Its their bad business plan. 'Superman Returns' was utter foolishness. I can't understand how that movie cost them 200 mn dollars. They should have rebooted Superman instead of a pseudo sequel to a 20 year old film. It still made more money then Batman Begins. But it was terrible and cost too much to make.

If 666 mn is less, they have a very bad business plan. Superman name does not automatically imply 800 mn+ business. It depends a lot on quality. Which was mixed for MoS. If they don't make films for 150-200 budget range you always need a lot of gross to be considered a success.


Wonder Woman was safer with a lesser budget. It was the quality which made it a thunderous success. You need a previous demand. Which WW always had. And reasonable budget to be considered profitable. Finally, a good quality film which clicks with the audiences. Otherwise what to speak of Superman even Batman will not be successful. No character shall be taken for granted. A lesson from Marvel. 

But the question arises. What will be considered success for 'JL' from the pov of WB?

----------


## Soubhagya

> Just to note, those were early summer screening. Before Joss edit took place.


Is it so? But isn't that an old news? Why has it been brought up now?

----------


## Robotman

> Flashpoint is not a sure thing and depends on Justice Leagues success. Also, MoS 2 aint happening apparently. Source: http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/29/j...ovie-in-limbo/
> 
> 
> This sucks.


I dont think this article is as grim as it seems. WB is probably doing a wait and see with Flashpoint because it would be more expensive than the other films just because there are so many characters involved and the scale is so huge. Theyre going to be staying with stand alone solo flicks. Aquaman, Wonder Woman 2, and Shazam are sure things. Unless Justice League makes close to a billion I dont think well be seeing a sequel any time soon. It doesnt sound as if they have immediate plans for Superman but WBs plans have changed so much over the past year or two you just never know. If Justice League is a massive hit and there is a demand for more Superman Im sure theyll move up MoS 2 on their to do list.

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## El_Gato

> Is it so? But isn't that an old news? Why has it been brought up now?


Yeah. I looked it up. He was talking about the Summer screenings with Snyder's cut, before the reshoots and Whedon input. Apparently that film got a pretty bad 40% score. Meaning only 40% of the audience rated it either very good or good vs the other 60% rating it fair/bad/very bad

----------


## El_Gato

> I dont think this article is as grim as it seems. WB is probably doing a wait and see with Flashpoint because it would be more expensive than the other films just because there are so many characters involved and the scale is so huge. Theyre going to be staying with stand alone solo flicks. Aquaman, Wonder Woman 2, and Shazam are sure things. Unless Justice League makes close to a billion I dont think well be seeing a sequel any time soon. It doesnt sound as if they have immediate plans for Superman but WBs plans have changed so much over the past year or two you just never know. If Justice League is a massive hit and there is a demand for more Superman Im sure theyll move up MoS 2 on their to do list.


Suicide Squad 2 goes into production next year for a 2019 release, so WB isn't exactly abandoning ensemble/team movies. 

I think Flashpoint will get reworked into a JL sequel, should the first one prove successful! I mean all the key players of that arc are already introcuced in the DCEU (Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Mera, Cyborg, Batman, Shazam, Superman).

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> If JL 'fails' i will lay the blame on BvS. What should have been an MoS sequel became a Justice League backdoor. There should have been a Batman movie before their team-up. A higher quality sequel to Man of Steel, which makes the audience demand for more of Superman. And a good foundation with: Two Superman films, one Batman, one Wonder Woman and a team up of the big three with the cameos thrown in would have made the audience hungry for Justice League. I don't see Suicide Squad to be a good choice to set up an interconnected movie universe like Marvel.
> 
> I don't agree that Superman does not make them enough money. Its their bad business plan. 'Superman Returns' was utter foolishness. I can't understand how that movie cost them 200 mn dollars. They should have rebooted Superman instead of a pseudo sequel to a 20 year old film. It still made more money then Batman Begins. But it was terrible and cost too much to make.
> 
> If 666 mn is less, they have a very bad business plan. Superman name does not automatically imply 800 mn+ business. It depends a lot on quality. Which was mixed for MoS. If they don't make films for 150-200 budget range you always need a lot of gross to be considered a success.
> 
> 
> Wonder Woman was safer with a lesser budget. It was the quality which made it a thunderous success. You need a previous demand. Which WW always had. And reasonable budget to be considered profitable. Finally, a good quality film which clicks with the audiences. Otherwise what to speak of Superman even Batman will not be successful. No character shall be taken for granted. A lesson from Marvel. 
> 
> But the question arises. What will be considered success for 'JL' from the pov of WB?


I agree with all of this. But if I were to stick to WB plans and they insisted on a Batman and Superman movie, Instead I would of just did a grounded Batman/Superman: Public Enemies. Change up the story line to fit with the DCEU.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

First off, there's multiple versions for test screenings. I know Kroll has a name around the industry, so I won't question it like I would Umberto. 
Nonetheless, maybe he heard one negative response, who knows? 
On that point, though, we heard first reactions for BvS were great. We heard Wonder Woman was a "mess" and that turned out to be entirely false. I think Suicide Squad had the hype engine going due to the sensational marketing, but we know what a turd that movie ended up being (it gets worse every time I watch, whereas Man of Steel gets better every time I watch it).

Second, and here is my biggest complaint/worry: WB is _waiting_ on the reception of their _flagship_ movie to push forward, or not? This tells me their executives have no idea what they're doing or where they're going with DC Films. You shouldn't have to worry about reception to a Justice League movie, I'm sorry. My faith in WB/DC Films plummeted when I heard that. And no, I"m not arguing from a business position. This is actually a smart business position, but it's one they shouldn't have to be taking… Wow, I'm definitely starting to become skeptical and I've been a big fan of Man of Steel, BvS, and Wonder Woman (Suicide Squad is another matter). 

Third, I don't think Geoff Johns is our Lord and Savior. I sometimes wonder if he's spread too thin and/or if he _truly_ has the influence we've been told he has. If anything, everything has become more confusing with the DC Films trajectory since he's become "official."

My last thoughts here: WB/DC should have come up with a roadmap for their slate and stuck with it. How many times has the slate changed and why? How many directors have walked away or WB has parted ways with? 

Why do we not have Green Lantern Corps, The Flash, Teen Titans/Cyborg, Man of Steel 2, The Batman, etc. but we're seeing Suicide Squad 2, Wonder Woman 2, and Shazam are all in development already? I get that we need to spread out, but why would you not start with your big guns to introduce the greater universe and then bring the lesser known characters? 

Anyway, we'll see what happens. I Justice League is a mess, I think the break in between it and Aquaman will be much needed for us fans AND WB/DC to recalibrate. I've bought tickets for Friday (opening day) and Saturday and I"m hoping I didn't waste money. I've been stoked for Justice League for a long time now and want to stay excited, but in the background, WB/DC are casting unwanted shadows over their own properties.

----------


## Jokerz79

I personally don't buy anything is definitely happening in the DCEU outside of WW2, SS2, and now Shazam the rest I believe when casting and filming has started.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That in no way means he's unbiased or that he doesn't have a very different definition of a good screening than the rest of us.


LOL. If he's "one of the best in the business" then it absolutely means he's unbiased. That's what good reporters do. 

With that said, I can't vouch for Kroll. But your logic is crazy.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> First off, there's multiple versions for test screenings. I know Kroll has a name around the industry, so I won't question it like I would Umberto. 
> Nonetheless, maybe he heard one negative response, who knows?


Just so everyone knows, what Kroll is reporting is the viewer response average from screenings. As a test viewer, you're asked afterwards if you "really liked," "liked" "neutral" "didn't like" the film. According to Kroll, JL is only getting 40% of either really liked or liked, which is supposedly bad.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I agree with all of this. But if I were to stick to WB plans and they insisted on a Batman and Superman movie, Instead I would of just did a grounded Batman/Superman: Public Enemies. Change up the story line to fit with the DCEU.


Yes a team up like Batman/Superman Public Enemies would have been better. Superman saved the world in 'MOS' but Metropolis was destroyed and many lives lost. A 'Public Enemy' makes sense. Not because everyone blames him for the destruction. Its foolishness because he saved them. But surely his reception would have been mixed by the world. A plot by Luthor would have ensured Superman and Batman to be both enemies of the state. It would have been a real fun film. A Batman and Superman fight simply can't go beyond a few minutes. Your pitch is a far better idea. 

To be truthful any idea would have been better then what we got. It was an instance of checklist film making. Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, Wonder Woman introduction, setting up Justice League. I might be wrong but this looks like they wanted to fit those in the story whether they fit or not. One shall focus on the movie itself while setting the foundation. As they say learn to walk before you run.

But what has happened has already happened. DCEU is not as grim as that article paints. It has earned a lot. MoS 2 may yet be planned which they are 'hiding' for JL or waiting for the results of JL. It maybe a combination of both. They will eventually try for a Superman movie. His movie is almost a sure success. Bad(Returns) and divisive(MoS) earned a lot. Stateside he may not be as great a deal as he once was but worldwide he is among the most well known heroes. So we will get a Superman movie. But when? That's a difficult question. I wish it were sooner. I want Cavill and Adams to get another shot. The list is partial too. Nightwing does not appear here even with the director attached.

Why i have problems with no MoS is also due to the fact that i don't have any interest in Harley. Its nice that people like her but i am among those who prefer heroes and heroic films over those who are anti-heroes or insane. Deathstroke appears interesting because of the director but i have zero interest in any other movie with those villains. Come on man. A talking tree is winning hearts and you can't get Superman right.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yes a team up like Batman/Superman Public Enemies would have been better. Superman saved the world in 'MOS' but Metropolis was destroyed and many lives lost. A 'Public Enemy' makes sense. Not because everyone blames him for the destruction. Its foolishness because he saved them. But surely his reception would have been mixed by the world. A plot by Luthor would have ensured Superman and Batman to be both enemies of the state. It would have been a real fun film. A Batman and Superman fight simply can't go beyond a few minutes. Your pitch is a far better idea. 
> 
> To be truthful any idea would have been better then what we got. It was an instance of checklist film making. Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, Wonder Woman introduction, setting up Justice League. I might be wrong but this looks like they wanted to fit those in the story whether they fit or not. One shall focus on the movie itself while setting the foundation. As they say learn to walk before you run.
> 
> But what has happened has already happened. DCEU is not as grim as that article paints. It has earned a lot. MoS 2 may yet be planned which they are 'hiding' for JL or waiting for the results of JL. It maybe a combination of both. They will eventually try for a Superman movie. His movie is almost a sure success. Bad(Returns) and divisive(MoS) earned a lot. Stateside he may not be as great a deal as he once was but worldwide he is among the most well known heroes. So we will get a Superman movie. But when? That's a difficult question. I wish it were sooner. I want Cavill and Adams to get another shot. The list is partial too. Nightwing does not appear here even with the director attached.
> 
> Why i have problems with no MoS is also due to the fact that i don't have any interest in Harley. Its nice that people like her but i am among those who prefer heroes and heroic films over those who are anti-heroes or insane. Deathstroke appears interesting because of the director but i have zero interest in any other movie with those villains. Come on man. A talking tree is winning hearts and you can't get Superman right.


Preach, man. Everything you say is what I've been feeling since 2013. I honestly think Snyder is one of those guys who walks into a comic store once or twice a year and buys an injustice comic because it's super dramatic. And WB is equally complicit in this because they let him drive the entire universe's direction for years.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yeah. I looked it up. He was talking about the Summer screenings with Snyder's cut, before the reshoots and Whedon input. Apparently that film got a pretty bad 40% score. Meaning only 40% of the audience rated it either very good or good vs the other 60% rating it fair/bad/very bad


Sorry, didn't see you looked it up. Are you sure it was the pre-Whedon cut? I hope you're right for our sake.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Sorry, didn't see you looked it up. Are you sure it was the pre-Whedon cut? I hope you're right for our sake.


Even if it were i won't put a lot of hope for Whedon. It is still Snyder's film. They speak of the scenes were connective tissue and carrying out the vision of Snyder. The film was shot before Whedon. And his changes would be minor. 

So if the report was true i would guess the best case scenario would be a 60 percent plus RT score realistically 40+ range. But its more then enough. A 2 hour film would mean a film where there is almost no breathing space. Audiences would not be bored with a tightly told story with dazzling visuals. We might be somewhat underwhelmed but its still good for now irrespective of the report.

Snyder tries deeper stories. The visuals are better because we can see it rather then being hidden in the shadows. And the new scenes may simply mean some comedic dialogue which is required for not being oppressed by a serious story. This looks good for now irrespective of any report. Had he said its so bad that 20 percent people agree its good i would have been worried.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Yes a team up like Batman/Superman Public Enemies would have been better. Superman saved the world in 'MOS' but Metropolis was destroyed and many lives lost. A 'Public Enemy' makes sense. Not because everyone blames him for the destruction. Its foolishness because he saved them. But surely his reception would have been mixed by the world. A plot by Luthor would have ensured Superman and Batman to be both enemies of the state. It would have been a real fun film. A Batman and Superman fight simply can't go beyond a few minutes. Your pitch is a far better idea. 
> 
> To be truthful any idea would have been better then what we got. It was an instance of checklist film making. Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, Wonder Woman introduction, setting up Justice League. I might be wrong but this looks like they wanted to fit those in the story whether they fit or not. One shall focus on the movie itself while setting the foundation. As they say learn to walk before you run.
> 
> But what has happened has already happened. DCEU is not as grim as that article paints. It has earned a lot. MoS 2 may yet be planned which they are 'hiding' for JL or waiting for the results of JL. It maybe a combination of both. They will eventually try for a Superman movie. His movie is almost a sure success. Bad(Returns) and divisive(MoS) earned a lot. Stateside he may not be as great a deal as he once was but worldwide he is among the most well known heroes. So we will get a Superman movie. But when? That's a difficult question. I wish it were sooner. I want Cavill and Adams to get another shot. The list is partial too. Nightwing does not appear here even with the director attached.
> 
> Why i have problems with no MoS is also due to the fact that i don't have any interest in Harley. Its nice that people like her but i am among those who prefer heroes and heroic films over those who are anti-heroes or insane. Deathstroke appears interesting because of the director but i have zero interest in any other movie with those villains. Come on man. A talking tree is winning hearts and you can't get Superman right.


Bears repeating again and again. Well said.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> LOL. If he's "one of the best in the business" then it absolutely means he's unbiased. That's what good reporters do. 
> 
> With that said, I can't vouch for Kroll. But your logic is crazy.


Have you noticed the state of "journalism" in this day and age? I stand by my assessment. Especially where the DCEU is concerned.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Kroll is unbiased. He doesn’t care about superhero films one way or another. He doesn’t like or dislike them, he just reports the facts.

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## Vanguard-01

> Kroll is unbiased. He doesn’t care about superhero films one way or another. He doesn’t like or dislike them, he just reports the facts.


You know him personally, I take it?

----------


## Robotman

Regardless of what the reporter heard he was speaking about the first cut of the movie. Apparently it’s a pretty damn different film since WB brought in Whedon. They’ve streamlined it and completely changed the ending. So hopefully these change have brought about positive results.

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## Elmo

> Kroll is unbiased. He doesn’t care about superhero films one way or another. He doesn’t like or dislike them, he just reports the facts.


whatever you say Justin Kroll

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> You know him personally, I take it?


Geez. I think we should be asking you the same question.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Regardless of what the reporter heard he was speaking about the first cut of the movie. Apparently it’s a pretty damn different film since WB brought in Whedon. They’ve streamlined it and completely changed the ending. So hopefully these change have brought about positive results.


It doesn't appear he was talking about the first cut. He was talking about the screenings that occurred in September. So this is very much not good news. That was post reshoots and Whedon's cut.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Just to note, those were early summer screening. Before Joss edit took place.


Not true. This was apparently from the September screenings. It's Joss' cut.

----------


## Badou

> Lets see we have had is some order-
> 
> 3 GOTG movies
> 3 Blade movies
> 2 Punsher
> 3 Thor
> 3 Ironman
> 3 Captain America
> 3 Fantastic Four
> ...


It doesn't really speak more volumes because most of those movies are from a different company and/or were made when the market for superhero movies was a lot different. If we had gotten a Wonder Woman movie in the 90s or early 00s odds are it would have been closer to that 90s Captain America movie, the Batman and Robin movie, or 00s Catwoman movie. Same for Justice League. The market had to change and special effects had to evolve to a point where they can make a Wonder Woman or a JL movie viable. The Nolan Batman movies obviously put them behind in trying to make a JL movie, but now that they can make them they really needed to get characters like Superman right. 

I think right now it should be about establishing a strong foundation in order to build up those other movies. Like what Marvel did. So you have to get Batman and Superman right in order to set up everything else down the line and have viewers buy in. Otherwise we will continue to get shit like BvS and SS that are just awful movies and pure cash grabs. That is what the Harley movies feel like. Her movie made a lot of money and now they want to quickly rush out a SS2, a Joker and Harley movie and there was even talks of another Harley movie.

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## ross61

> Not true. This was apparently from the September screenings. It's Joss' cut.


Can't be Joss cut since they aren't even really finished with the film yet.

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## Lightning Rider

BvS was not a "cash grab" just because you didn't like it.

----------


## El_Gato

> It doesn't really speak more volumes because most of those movies are from a different company and/or were made when the market for superhero movies was a lot different. If we had gotten a Wonder Woman movie in the 90s or early 00s odds are it would have been closer to that 90s Captain America movie, the Batman and Robin movie, or 00s Catwoman movie. Same for Justice League. The market had to change and special effects had to evolve to a point where they can make a Wonder Woman or a JL movie viable. The Nolan Batman movies obviously put them behind in trying to make a JL movie, but now that they can make them they really needed to get characters like Superman right. 
> 
> I think right now it should be about establishing a strong foundation in order to build up those other movies. Like what Marvel did. So you have to get Batman and Superman right in order to set up everything else down the line and have viewers buy in. Otherwise we will continue to get shit like BvS and SS that are just awful movies and pure cash grabs. That is what the Harley movies feel like. *Her movie made a lot of money and now they want to quickly rush out a SS2, a Joker and Harley movie and there was even talks of another Harley movie.*


How is Suicide Squad 2 a rush job? I'll agree that the original was a rush job but it's sequel will have 3 years between the two films! That's not a rush job, anymore than Spider-Man Homecoming 2 and Wonder Woman 2 are! The Joker/Harley film was just a rumor that I doubt will see the light of day.

----------


## Badou

> BvS was not a "cash grab" just because you didn't like it.


It felt like a cash grab. It felt like DC just threw Batman and Superman into a movie together, had them fight for no real reason, threw Wonder Woman in it too, and then expected everyone to love it because characters they like are in it. It being the first time Batman and Superman appeared on screen together, and Wonder Woman as well, was a massive let down. It should have been so much more. 

To me it felt like they came up with an idea in trying to profit twice from what was basically a Justice League movie. Batman and Superman appearing together could have been a Justice League movie but they thought it would be more profitable to just make a separate movie about those two meeting and also a Justice League movie too afterwards when it could have easily been just a part of a BIG Justice League movie.

----------


## Badou

> How is Suicide Squad 2 a rush job? I'll agree that the original was a rush job but it's sequel will have 3 years between the two films! That's not a rush job, anymore than Spider-Man Homecoming 2 and Wonder Woman 2 are! The Joker/Harley film was just a rumor that I doubt will see the light of day.


I suppose I was lumping SS2 in with all the other Harley movies that are in the pipeline where it all feels hastily thought out. I really have no idea what to think of SS2 as all we've heard about it is centered around Harley.

----------


## El_Gato

> Can't be Joss cut since they aren't even really finished with the film yet.


Apparently it was the September cut of the film. They have since made a few changes though (fixing the 3rd act, Cyborg's part, finishing effects and fixing pacing issues). The new cut is the one that was screened recently and will likely end up as the finished product.

----------


## Buried Alien

> It felt like a cash grab. It felt like DC just threw Batman and Superman into a movie together, had them fight for no real reason, threw Wonder Woman in it too, and then expected everyone to love it because characters they like are in it. It being the first time Batman and Superman appeared on screen together, and Wonder Woman as well, was a massive let down. It should have been so much more.


I don't know...I had a ripsnortin' good time watching it, and it was a rare superhero movie that left me in a reflective mood.

I wasn't alone in this experience, but...you know, the people I know and I don't get interviewed by the media.   :Wink: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Confuzzled

> How is Suicide Squad 2 a rush job? I'll agree that the original was a rush job but it's sequel will have 3 years between the two films! That's not a rush job, anymore than Spider-Man Homecoming 2 and Wonder Woman 2 are! The Joker/Harley film was just a rumor that I doubt will see the light of day.


Joker/Harley movie just seems like a gesture to appease Leto to stay as none of the Joker origin movie, the Batman solo, Suicide Squad 2 or Gotham City Sirens seem interested in using him.

If they feel they don't need him and could recast, then that project is dead in the water.




> I suppose I was lumping SS2 in with all the other Harley movies that are in the pipeline where it all feels hastily thought out. I really have no idea what to think of SS2 *as all we've heard about it is centered around Harley.*


When did "we" hear that?  :Confused:

----------


## El_Gato

> I suppose I was lumping SS2 in with all the other Harley movies that are in the pipeline where it all feels hastily thought out. I really have no idea what to think of SS2 as all we've heard about it is centered around Harley.


I don't think we've heard anything about Suicide Squad 2, beyond who is directing and who is writing the script. Though to be fair Margot Robbie, Will Smith and Viola Davis are practically guaranteed to return imo. Jury is still out on the others...

----------


## Badou

> When did "we" hear that?


I haven't heard any talk about SS2 that didn't focus on Harley. Every time anyone, including fans, talk about it all of the talk is about Harley in it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I haven't heard any talk about SS2 that didn't focus on Harley.


Only because people didn't know whether she would appear in it or not after Sirens was announced. Will Smith's involvement and schedule have also been discussed.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Have you noticed the state of "journalism" in this day and age? I stand by my assessment. Especially where the DCEU is concerned.


Man of Steel was a well made film but some didn't like it's interpretation of Superman myself included.

The theatrical cut of BvS was a mess and that was the Studios fault.

Suicide Squad again was a mess due to the Studio allowing a freaking trailer house to do edits I mean WTF.

Wonder Woman was good and got good reviews a big reason they allowed Patty Jenkins to do her job and not mess with the film.

There's no conspiracy it's not the critics or rotten tomatoes faults for the DCEU problems. It's the Studio's who even now apparently changed Justice League during production. WB doesn't trust the people they hire and it's messing with the DCEU. Say what you will about the MCU and yes they do put guidelines to follow for their directors but they also trust Thor Ragnarok is definitely a Taika Waititi film same for the Russo Bros and Captain America, James Gunn and Guardians, and even by the looks of the trailers Black Panther with Ryan Coogler. Fox is even going further with experimentation with Deadpool films, Logan, and New Mutants. That's what WB has to do learn to trust the people they hire and quit looking at others are doing and being reactionary and things will work out IMO.

----------


## Confuzzled

There's no conspiracy, but it's also fact that negative rumors about the DCEU gets websites a juicy number of clicks.

----------


## dietrich

> I have no problem with other characters and franchises getting a shot. I just don't think that requires Superman being put on the back burner or ignored. You CAN have Suicide Squad sequels, Flashpoint, Shazam , alongside another Superman movie. I mean, Batman has had as many big screen movies as Supes yet you don't see anyone saying " Batman has had enough exposure. Let's make that Doom Patrol movie instead."


Ideally no one should wait but because DC can only develop a certain number of projects a time it becomes necessary to prioritise.  Batman and Superman can wait because aside fro already in the DCEU those two never go out of style. There is always a demand for them therefore DC can put a pin in them  and try take  advantage of current market trends, tastes to put out less known franchises that meet current trends while it lasts.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It felt like a cash grab. It felt like DC just threw Batman and Superman into a movie together, had them fight for no real reason, threw Wonder Woman in it too, and then expected everyone to love it because characters they like are in it. It being the first time Batman and Superman appeared on screen together, and Wonder Woman as well, was a massive let down. It should have been so much more. 
> 
> To me it felt like they came up with an idea in trying to profit twice from what was basically a Justice League movie. Batman and Superman appearing together could have been a Justice League movie but they thought it would be more profitable to just make a separate movie about those two meeting and also a Justice League movie too afterwards when it could have easily been just a part of a BIG Justice League movie.


They didn't fight "for no reason", there was tons of build up to the fight, and Snyder wrote a story full of themes and strong character choices. If you didn't like them or think it was over stuffed, that's one thing, but the film was a creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs.

----------


## Elmo

> They didn't fight "for no reason", there was tons of build up to the fight, and Snyder wrote a story full of themes and strong character choices. If you didn't like them or think it was over stuffed, that's one thing, but the film was a creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs.


WOW! Thank you so much. I've been saying this for months and people call me crazy.

----------


## Soubhagya

Never mind.

----------


## Jokerz79

> They didn't fight "for no reason", there was tons of build up to the fight, and Snyder wrote a story full of themes and strong character choices. If you didn't like them or think it was over stuffed, that's one thing, but the film was a creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs.


Ok there is a difference between "No Reason" and "No REAL Reason" I think Batman was given plenty of good reasons. But Superman given he told the U.S. government not to look for him and handed them their satellite at the end of MoS and his actions in North Africa he had no place to judge Batman for being a vigilante IMO.

Also "a creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs" come on that fact that Warner Bros. took a hatchet to the film so they could get more screenings a day in theatres with a shorter run time shows it was an creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs but was actually all about those Benjamins.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Kroll is unbiased.


Everybody is biased to a certain extent. Just a matter of how well one can check him/herself.

----------


## Agent Z

> Ok there is a difference between "No Reason" and "No REAL Reason" I think Batman was given plenty of good reasons. But Superman given he told the U.S. government not to look for him and handed them their satellite at the end of MoS and his actions in North Africa he had no place to judge Batman for being a vigilante IMO.
> 
> Also "a creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs" come on that fact that Warner Bros. took a hatchet to the film so they could get more screenings a day in theatres with a shorter run time shows it was an creative endeavor with a vision beyond dollar signs but was actually all about those Benjamins.


Clark mostly kept to rescuing people from natural disasters. Prior to the invasion, he never used his powers for violence against another sentient being. that's magnitudes of difference from actively going out at night to kill people like Bruce was.

Bogotazo was talking about Snyder's intentions for the movie not WB's.

----------


## Frontier

> *Joker/Harley movie just seems like a gesture to appease Leto* to stay as none of the Joker origin movie, the Batman solo, Suicide Squad 2 or Gotham City Sirens seem interested in using him.
> 
> If they feel they don't need him and could recast, then that project is dead in the water.


Is Leto really worth all that trouble? I think Robbie deserves a better Joker  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Ok there is a difference between "No Reason" and "No REAL Reason" I think Batman was given plenty of good reasons. But Superman given he told the U.S. government not to look for him and handed them their satellite at the end of MoS and his actions in North Africa he had no place to judge Batman for being a vigilante IMO.


I can't see any Batman with common sense just straight-up trying to murder Superman with flimsy evidence.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Clark mostly kept to rescuing people from natural disasters. Prior to the invasion, he never used his powers for violence against another sentient being. that's magnitudes of difference from actively going out at night to kill people like Bruce was.
> 
> Bogotazo was talking about Snyder's intentions for the movie not WB's.


Unless a hired gun to quickly get a film out "cough Bret Ratner cough Last Stand cough" most comic book directors out there put their own creative stamp on a project I mean look at the current Fox and MCU films the directors are definitely putting their unique stamp on them. The only way that a film being above dollar signs is impressive is if the studio is doing that which the WB clearly wasn't. 

As for Supes I disagree he was by BvS active in getting involved in international incidents, responsible for a lot of collateral damage and lost of life, and wasn't answering to any government he was a vigilante and IMO looked hypocritical going after Batman for being a vigilante.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Is Leto really worth all that trouble? I think Robbie deserves a better Joker .
> 
> I can't see any Batman with common sense just straight-up trying to murder Superman with flimsy evidence.


I didn't like the DCEU Batman but I understood his motivations from those given in the film and it made sense for that Batman. They did an excellent job getting across why he felt the way he did and it was understandable given how he was portrayed in this incarnation.

----------


## Agent Z

> Unless a hired gun to quickly get a film out "cough Bret Ratner cough Last Stand cough" most comic book directors out there put their own creative stamp on a project I mean look at the current Fox and MCU films the directors are definitely putting their unique stamp on them. The only way that a film being above dollar signs is impressive is if the studio is doing that which the WB clearly wasn't. 
> 
> As for Supes I disagree he was by BvS active in getting involved in international incidents, responsible for a lot of collateral damage and lost of life, and wasn't answering to any government he was a vigilante and IMO looked hypocritical going after Batman for being a vigilante.


The only international incident Clark was involved in was Nairobi which he attended the hearing to answer for. And no Zod was responsible for the collateral damage, not that I expect that to change people's minds after the fifteen millionth time it's been stated.

----------


## Frontier

> I didn't like the DCEU Batman but I understood his motivations from those given in the film and it made sense for that Batman. They did an excellent job getting across why he felt the way he did and it was understandable given how he was portrayed in this incarnation.


I still don't get why he was so gung-ho about killing Superman but I guess I just didn't read him as enough of a raging, homicidal, maniac to warrant that.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I still don't get why he was so gung-ho about killing Superman but I guess I just didn't read him as enough of a raging, homicidal, maniac to warrant that.


It's probably because he personally knew so many of the people killed by the collapse of the Wayne Enterprises skyscraper in Metropolis during the battle between the Kryptonians.  Additionally, I'm not sure how recent the death of Robin was in the movie's continuity (it might have still been fresh and raw, influencing Batman's attitude and behavior, as it did in the comics shortly after A DEATH IN THE FAMILY).  What Bruce saw in the Knightmare, including the cryptic encounter with the time-traveling Flash, might also have influenced his decisions.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## batnbreakfast

> It's probably because he personally knew so many of the people killed by the collapse of the Wayne Enterprises skyscraper in Metropolis during the battle between the Kryptonians.  Additionally, I'm not sure how recent the death of Robin was in the movie's continuity (it might have still been fresh and raw, influencing Batman's attitude and behavior, as it did in the comics shortly after A DEATH IN THE FAMILY.  What Bruce saw in the Knightmare, including the cryptic encounter with the time-traveling Flash, might also have influenced his decisions.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I'm all for not giving audiences what they want and surprise them in a clever way. I loved Batfleck rescuing the little girl and the Alfred/Bruce moments but ultimately there's more scenes I really hated like Thomas and Martha dying AGAIN. In SloMo. The gunship masquerading as Batmobile. The battle between Bruce and Clark should have never happened and if it had to happen not in this boring way. Why not show us Batfleck cradling a dying Robin. Who is it? How long ago did it happen? No, better to set up the next 5 movies (Dawn of Justice, bro).They make a 200 M dollar movie and approve of so many questionable moments and character traits its really not even funny. The posters were unispired and boring. The frigging title is too long and too B-Movie (and in general I love B-movies).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It's probably because he personally knew so many of the people killed by the collapse of the Wayne Enterprises skyscraper in Metropolis during the battle between the Kryptonians.  Additionally, I'm not sure how recent the death of Robin was in the movie's continuity (it might have still been fresh and raw, influencing Batman's attitude and behavior, as it did in the comics shortly after A DEATH IN THE FAMILY).  What Bruce saw in the Knightmare, including the cryptic encounter with the time-traveling Flash, might also have influenced his decisions.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


It was a lot of things. The frustration of not making a permanent difference in Gotham; the death of Robin making him bitter; the up close witnessing of so many people dying in Gotham, and the girl losing her parents; the visions and time-travelling visit; and either inspiring or condoning terrorism at the capital building. And lastly, their first meeting being "BUMP...stop being Batman because I said so. _Consider this mercy."_ For me it's a great Supermanesque warning, but for Batman, it's easy to see how its a confirmation of everything he already believes. 

Meanwhile you look at it from Superman's perspective and Batman sucks, and the press won't do anything about it. The police certainly can't, or won't. He tries to do something about it as Clark Kent before doing anything as Superman.

The audience knows more about each than either of them do about each other and it's interesting to step back and see what they see.

So yeah, Batman was essentially a trauma victim having a midlife existential crisis and seeing things that under normal circumstances would classify him as mentally ill. On top of that death follows this guy wherever he goes.

----------


## Frontier

> It's probably because he personally knew so many of the people killed by the collapse of the Wayne Enterprises skyscraper in Metropolis during the battle between the Kryptonians.  Additionally, I'm not sure how recent the death of Robin was in the movie's continuity (it might have still been fresh and raw, influencing Batman's attitude and behavior, as it did in the comics shortly after A DEATH IN THE FAMILY).  What Bruce saw in the Knightmare, including the cryptic encounter with the time-traveling Flash, might also have influenced his decisions.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I still don't think that would lead to Batman being as obsessed with killing Superman as he became in that movie. 

I just don't see Batman needing a "white whale" in his life, which Superman seemed to become to him or he tried to make Superman into in his head. If anything, that should just be crime in general. 




> It was a lot of things. The frustration of not making a permanent difference in Gotham; the death of Robin making him bitter; the up close witnessing of so many people dying in Gotham, and the girl losing her parents; the visions and time-travelling visit; and either inspiring or condoning terrorism at the capital building. And lastly, their first meeting being "BUMP...stop being Batman because I said so. *Consider this mercy." For me it's a great Supermanesque warning*, but for Batman, it's easy to see how its a confirmation of everything he already believes.


Not sure I see Supes doing it quite like he did it in that movie though. 

But the movie probably needed it to be that way. 




> So yeah, Batman was essentially a trauma victim having a midlife existential crisis and seeing things that under normal circumstances would classify him as mentally ill. On top of that death follows this guy wherever he goes.


Well, he certainly wasn't at his most mentally stable in that movie, which was probably the root cause of his un-Batmanlike behavior.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Apparently press screenings happening early as this week. Guess that means I'll have to try and avoid JL news completely until opening weekend now.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It was a lot of things. The frustration of not making a permanent difference in Gotham; the death of Robin making him bitter; the up close witnessing of so many people dying in Gotham, and the girl losing her parents; the visions and time-travelling visit; and either inspiring or condoning terrorism at the capital building. And lastly, their first meeting being "BUMP...stop being Batman because I said so. _Consider this mercy."_ For me it's a great Supermanesque warning, but for Batman, it's easy to see how its a confirmation of everything he already believes. 
> 
> Meanwhile you look at it from Superman's perspective and Batman sucks, and the press won't do anything about it. The police certainly can't, or won't. He tries to do something about it as Clark Kent before doing anything as Superman.
> 
> The audience knows more about each than either of them do about each other and it's interesting to step back and see what they see.
> 
> So yeah, Batman was essentially a trauma victim having a midlife existential crisis and seeing things that under normal circumstances would classify him as mentally ill. On top of that death follows this guy wherever he goes.


You, sir, win the internet today! This post is just fantastic.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Apparently press screenings happening early as this week. Guess that means I'll have to try and avoid JL news completely until opening weekend now.


Yeah, same...I stopped watching everything once Flash week happened. These little character previews show SO much...

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I still don't think that would lead to Batman being as obsessed with killing Superman as he became in that movie. 
> 
> I just don't see Batman needing a "white whale" in his life, which Superman seemed to become to him or he tried to make Superman into in his head. If anything, that should just be crime in general. 
> 
> 
> Not sure I see Supes doing it quite like he did it in that movie though. 
> 
> But the movie probably needed it to be that way. 
> 
> ...


I consider him to be normally unstable anyway, but this was supposed to be a particularly dark episode in his life . I like the term you use "white whale", I think a Batman in a moment of feeling defeated and helpless would develop the psychological need for that kind of catharsis. But not ordinarily.




> You, sir, win the internet today! This post is just fantastic.


Thanks bro.

----------


## ObserveCreativeSouls115

As a part of Justice Leagues European tour (for non-U.S. participants), *Ben Affleck* (Batman/Bruce Wayne) himself wanted all admirers & experts to participate in this special #BatmanWeek #JoinTheLeague contest on Instagram. Mr. Afflecks assignment is simple: _Show me where you gather YOUR LEAGUE._

This is what I decided to create. That was my idea: that there is ONE strange individual who is not only ready to ACCEPT Mr. Afflecks challenge, but he is also dying to JOIN the Justice League without actually having any intention of GATHERING it. His name is very well-known Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha!

Enjoy! #MarketingCanBeSoFuuun

----------


## Frontier

> *I consider him to be normally unstable anyway*, but this was supposed to be a particularly dark episode in his life . I like the term you use "white whale", I think a Batman in a moment of feeling defeated and helpless would develop the psychological need for that kind of catharsis. But not ordinarily.


I don't, which I guess goes into the disconnect I had with their take on him in the movie (or some of Frank Miller's rendition of the Dark Knight).

Any Batman that thinks he'll find satisfaction or closure by planning to take another life just seems like a really messed up Batman to me. But again, I guess that was the point.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't, which I guess goes into the disconnect I had with their take on him in the movie (or some of Frank Miller's rendition of the Dark Knight).
> 
> Any Batman that thinks he'll find satisfaction or closure by planning to take another life just seems like a really messed up Batman to me. But again, I guess that was the point.


I don't prefer him to be like that all the time, but it's something we hadn't seen yet on screen so I really liked that. And it wasn't glorifying it but portraying it as negative.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't prefer him to be like that all the time, but it's something we hadn't seen yet on screen so I really liked that. And it wasn't glorifying it but portraying it as negative.


Fair enough, but it's not a portrayal I'm all that into so I wasn't all that fond of seeing it on-screen and I feel like it marred a performance/take that I probably would have enjoyed more otherwise (plus all the killing or involuntary manslaughter).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Fair enough, but it's not a portrayal I'm all that into so I wasn't all that fond of seeing it on-screen and I feel like it marred a performance/take that I probably would have enjoyed more otherwise (plus all the killing or involuntary manslaughter).


Yeah that's down to taste, the good news is going forward he'll still be Badass but not sadistic and disturbed.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Fair enough, but it's not a portrayal I'm all that into so I wasn't all that fond of seeing it on-screen and I feel like it marred a performance/take that I probably would have enjoyed more otherwise (plus all the killing or involuntary manslaughter).


This is where I'm at. It looks like we've left that behind, so I'm happy with his behavior in BvS being something I can just ignore.

----------


## Styles

Henry Cavill Talks DCEU Struggles, Calls Wonder Woman First Step In The Right Direction

----------


## Thomas Crown

First Gal and now Henry. I wonder if Warner Bros made "throw Zack under the bus" a talking point for DCEU actors, so they can keep pushing this ongoing "Geoff Johns saved DC movies" narrative.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> First Gal and now Henry. I wonder if Warner Bros made "throw Zack under the bus" a talking point for DCEU actors, so they can keep pushing this ongoing "Geoff Johns saved DC movies" narrative.


If you read it, he doesn't throw Zack under the bus, just stating the obvious. The DCEU movies as a whole (WW being the exception) have made lots of coin but haven't done well critically. WW has been the only one to do both and has struck the balance they've been trying for, which is not copy Marvel and do their own thing, but do well critically, which paints the way forward. That's all Henry is saying. He's not savaging Snyder. Snyder is gone anyway and even if BvS was the critical and commercial hit everyone was hoping for, he had already made it pretty clear that he'd likely be done after JL. He's made three movies after all. 

I haven't read what Gal has said so I can't speak for that, but Henry isn't throwing anyone under the bus. The DCEU took a little time to find their niche with the approach. They struck gold with Wonder Woman. It makes sense that will be their guide going forward, and honestly it isn't all that different from Snyder's approach. Just a better realized script and a little less dingy asthetic.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

A clip of the movie has leaked on Twitter.

I would be careful to avoid spoilers

----------


## Thomas Crown

> If you read it, he doesn't throw Zack under the bus


Yes, he did. He called Zack's vision for DC movies a "mistake" twice in the same interview for The Rake magazine.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> First Gal and now Henry. I wonder if Warner Bros made "throw Zack under the bus" a talking point for DCEU actors, so they can keep pushing this ongoing "Geoff Johns saved DC movies" narrative.


Maybe, maybe not. But what Cavill said is 100 percent true, and no more truer than for the character he plays.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> A clip of the movie has leaked on Twitter.
> 
> I would be careful to avoid spoilers



Damn. Really? It's not even November yet. We have a long road to go down and leaks are already happening? Not good.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yes, he did. He called Zack's vision for DC movies a "mistake" twice in the same interview for The Rake magazine.


Well, the movies made similar decisions with its primary character(s) in how they were portrayed in a manner away from their typical (though not unprecedented) manner. Whether that was a mistake or not is up for debate. But the creative choice was the same. Which is why if WB didn't like how MOS and BvS were received they shouldn't have been dumb enough to ask the same guy to do a third movie and arguably the most important one. It's not Zack's fault that his style is his style.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Undateable Creator Adam Sztykiel to write Black Adam*




> Undateable creator Adam Sztykiel is in negotiations to write New Line and DC Entertainments Black Adam movie starring Dwayne Johnson as the popular antihero, the Tracking Board has exclusively learned.
> 
> Theres no director attached yet, but the film will be produced by Johnson and Hiram Garcia of Seven Bucks Productions, and Beau Flynn of the Flynn Picture Company. The villainous comic book character was created in 1945 by Otto Binder and C.C. Beck.
> 
> The news comes just days after New Line and DC set Zachary Levi (NBCs Chuck) to play Shazam in the superhero film of the same name. Originally conceived to be the central antagonist in  Shazam!, Black Adam was spun off into a separate film earlier this year and is being developed alongside its counterpart.
> 
> Sztykiel is no stranger to New Line, having penned Were the Millers 2 and the Lonely Island-produced action comedy Spy Guys for the studio. He also wrote the Robert Downey Jr.-Zach Galifianakis comedy Due Date and the Patrick Dempsey-Michelle Monaghan rom-com Made of Honor.
> 
> Additionally, Sztykiel wrote a pair of family films for 20th Century Fox in Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Road Trip and Diary of a Wimpy Kid: The Long Haul, as well as the holiday comedy The Fight Before Christmas for Fox and Shawn Levys 21 Laps banner.


 Source

----------


## Thomas Crown

I'm seriously considering jumping off the DCEU boat after "Justice League" and only watching DC movies as a casual viewer with low expectations. I spent the last four years fiercely defending these movies because they brought the kind of approach I always wanted for the genre. And for what? Only for Warner Bros and DCEU actors to call these movies "mistakes" just to pander to movie critics and bloggers. Not to mention pushing Zack away and throwing him under the bus whenever possible. So, why should I bother?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'm seriously considering jumping off the DCEU boat after "Justice League" and only watching DC movies as a casual viewer with low expectations. I spent the last four years fiercely defending these movies because they brought the kind of approach I always wanted for the genre. And for what? Only for Warner Bros and DCEU actors to call these movies "mistakes" just to pander to movie critics and bloggers. Not to mention pushing Zack away and throwing him under the bus whenever possible. So, why should I bother?


Well, if you don't like the films on their own merits, then by all means you shouldn't see them. If you do like them (though not as much as the Snyder films), however, you might as well still check out the upcoming DCEU films. Better to get more films than nothing for a while, IMO.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Well, if you don't like the films on their own merits, then by all means you shouldn't see them. If you do like them (though not as much as the Snyder films), however, you might as well still check out the upcoming DCEU films. Better to get more films than nothing for a while, IMO.


Like I said, I will keep watching these movies just as a casual viewer, not as a fan anymore. Because it's clear that kind of approach that Zack and Christopher Nolan brought to the superhero movie genre will be definitively gone from the DCEU. Hopefully, DC movies will not become frustratingly mediocres like most of the MCU, but we'll have to settle for with a lot of standard, run-of-the-mill, meat-and-potatoes superhero movies. This way, DC movies can get the same Rotten Tomatoes ratings and box office numbers as the MCU and Warner Bros will be satisfied.

On the other hand, whatever Zack does next, I will be the first in line to watch.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> First Gal and now Henry. I wonder if Warner Bros made "throw Zack under the bus" a talking point for DCEU actors, so they can keep pushing this ongoing "Geoff Johns saved DC movies" narrative.


It is more likely that they are just vocalizing their own opinions rather some conspiracy against Snyder.  If JL isn't a critical/financial success that is on WB for keeping Snyder who doesn't have the best reputation in the industry.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Like I said, I will keep watching these movies just as a casual viewer, not as a fan anymore.


Your money is good to WB/DC either way.   :Wink: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Buried Alien

People are going to say @^%), &*#!, @(^%, and #&)^ about these movies, but if WB/DC sees more $$$$, then it won't matter.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## nightbird

> I'm seriously considering jumping off the DCEU boat after "Justice League" and only watching DC movies as a casual viewer with low expectations. I spent the last four years fiercely defending these movies because they brought the kind of approach I always wanted for the genre. And for what? Only for Warner Bros and DCEU actors to call these movies "mistakes" just to pander to movie critics and bloggers. Not to mention pushing Zack away and throwing him under the bus whenever possible. So, why should I bother?


After what kind of hell critics, haters and fans put them through I can't really blame anyone for saying previous stuff was "mistake"; insisting on being right would only further anger biased portion of critics and fans.

----------


## Pinsir

> I'm seriously considering jumping off the DCEU boat after "Justice League" and only watching DC movies as a casual viewer with low expectations. I spent the last four years fiercely defending these movies because they brought the kind of approach I always wanted for the genre. And for what? Only for Warner Bros and DCEU actors to call these movies "mistakes" just to pander to movie critics and bloggers. Not to mention pushing Zack away and throwing him under the bus whenever possible. So, why should I bother?


Marvel more or less admitted that the first two Thor movies were mistakes and abandoned that franchises supporting cast, tone and direction in favour of one that resembles Guardians of the Galaxy. Why can't DC do the same?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Marvel more or less admitted that the first two Thor movies were mistakes and abandoned that franchises supporting cast, tone and direction in favour of one that resembles Guardians of the Galaxy. Why can't DC do the same?


Because, unlike with MCU, WB/DC seem to be doing this to a loyal, and good guy, grieving the loss of his daughter. The same guy who refused the delay JL, picked Joss, and still promoted WW with a smile despite the tragedy he suffered.

This may not be intentional, or it is to appease people, but the timing makes it a bad look is all.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I may have made it sound like it on here, but I don't necessarily think Zack Snyder's stories are bad (even though I think his films are) and "mistakes" for the DCEU in general, but I do feel like perhaps his stories are a bit too soon. This I think is especially evident with BvS. The actual story of the movie isn't bad, and is actually interesting enough (though I feel like it's a story built on themes and visuals and not the other way round), but to me it just feels like there's a lot of 'stuff' that's missing from the film that I should have seen and experienced to get me properly invested in it (and yes I'm talking about the Ultimate Cut). The entire film just has an Elseworld feel to it, and honestly I don't think that's the second story you want to tell in your shared film universe.

The truth of the matter is, Zack Snyder excels at surrealism, not realism. Everything from his slo-mo sequences, his comic book panel-esque shots, the colour grading, the symbolism and allegory he uses, the way he uses CGI and his cinematography, the themes he discusses and so on. There's a reason why his movies come across as stage plays and not movies (he's said how much theatre inspires him). It's all very dream-like in nature. It's why it worked so well in 300 and made sense for Sucker Punch (though that's a bad movie). It even works for the most part in Watchmen. The problem I think is, he tried to pass all of this off as realism in what seemed like an attempt to continue the legacy of Christopher Nolan and his mark on a DC mythos in the form of Batman's. 

If I had my way, Zack Snyder would have only directed the planned Flashpoint film, and give him the template of the animated movie and just add a little bit more stuff to make it feel like a feature film. Zack Snyder with a killer script would excel at an Elseworld story. But handling the majority of the DCEU's story I think was a mistake.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Like I said, I will keep watching these movies just as a casual viewer, not as a fan anymore. Because it's clear that kind of approach that Zack and Christopher Nolan brought to the superhero movie genre will be definitively gone from the DCEU. Hopefully, DC movies will not become frustratingly mediocres like most of the MCU, but we'll have to settle for with a lot of standard, run-of-the-mill, meat-and-potatoes superhero movies. This way, DC movies can get the same Rotten Tomatoes ratings and box office numbers as the MCU and Warner Bros will be satisfied.
> 
> On the other hand, whatever Zack does next, I will be the first in line to watch.


As a fan of Snyder's DCEU work myself, that's cool.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Danny Elfman Confirms His ‘Batman’ Theme Will Return In ‘Justice League’

https://heroichollywood.com/danny-el...ustice-league/

*“It’s there from the beginning. Hans has done something wonderful, driven with rhythm and so on, but there has only been one theme and it is the Batman theme… yes I used the theme that Hans composed for Wonder Woman, the one that he wrote originally and used a bit – maybe – from John Williams to Superman, just maybe, we’ll have to see it.”
*

----------


## manofsteel1979

In regards to the Henry Cavill quotes, he's critiquing the overall approach of DC and Warners. Not Zack Snyder specifically.

People forget that the direction of the DCEU wasn't dictated or even originated by Zack Snyder alone. I remember as far back as 2007 there were quotes by people at Legendary films and Warner's that they were hoping to go darker and more " realistic" for what was then going to be the sequel to Superman Returns. Even Bryan Singer and his writers were talking about going darker and deeper with the follow up. Then The Dark Knight came out, broke a Billion, and convinced Warner's that the same approach to Superman and the DCU as a whole was the key, so Green Lantern aside, that was the mission statement of the DCEU.

 Nolan and Goyer came up with the pitch for MOS, took it to Warners and it was after it was green lit that Snyder was brought in to further develop it. Snyder was hired because WB had a certain vision for Superman and what they wanted for a DC Comics extended universe and they thought Snyder would give it to them. He did what was asked of him and gave the studio Zack Snyder's take on the DCU .

Yes at the end of the day , Snyder is responsible for the movies we've gotten so far, but the " grounded", " darker" more somber and ultra serious approach that led to Snyder being hired originate with the previous powers that be within Warner Brothers.Obviously the people in charge now don't share that view. That's all Cavill is saying. DC's overall approach was different in 2011-2016. That approach didn't pan out in the way they hoped. Now they are doing something different WITHOUT erasing what's been established.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Now they are doing something different WITHOUT erasing what's been established.


Yes, they are. The retcon in Wonder Woman's backstory is just the beginning. Geoff Johns has a history of retconning or writing out of continuity everything that don't fit HIS vision of how the DC Universe should be. It's not so hard to believe that his goal is to erase or sweep under the rug every creative decision made by Zack.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Danny Elfman Confirms His Batman Theme Will Return In Justice League*




> Danny Elfman has revealed that Junkie XLs Batman theme composed for the caped crusader in last years Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice will not resurface in the upcoming superhero epic Justice League.
> 
> In a new interview with Reporte Indigo, Elfman explained that he will instead bring back the theme he created for Batman (1989) and Batman Returns, going as far to denounce Hans Zimmers Batman theme composed for The Dark Knight trilogy and say that Batman has only ever had one theme. But the composer did confirm that Zimmers Wonder Woman theme would be making a return as he teased the appearance of John Williams Superman theme:
> 
> Its there from the beginning. Hans has done something wonderful, driven with rhythm and so on, but there has only been one theme and it is the Batman theme yes I used the theme that Hans composed for Wonder Woman, the one that he wrote originally and used a bit  maybe  from John Williams to Superman, just maybe, well have to see it.


Video of interview

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Yes, they are. The retcon in Wonder Woman's backstory is just the beginning. Geoff Johns has a history of retconning or writing out of continuity everything that don't fit HIS vision of how the DC Universe should be. It's not so hard to believe that his goal is to erase or sweep under the rug every creative decision made by Zack.


Maybe they will ultimately. Maybe this is the only instance of a retcon. This isn't the first time a movie series did a retcon to something in an earlier movie. Particularly what was literally a throw away line at the tail end  of a movie. Remember in Return of the Jedi when Leia talks about remembering her mom? Turns out that didn't happen. Remember when Apollo tells Rocky at the end of the first movie there would be no rematch? Guess what happens in the next movie?

Now, if in JL we find out that suddenly Zod is alive and Superman is sporting Lycra spandex and trunks with no explanation other than just because...Then you'll have a point. Otherwise it's a bit of an over reaction to just speculation.

Truth is we don't know ANYTHING yet. Let's go see JL, and then we can all have an informed discussion over what has or hasn't been undone, erased and ignored.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Now, if in JL we find out that suddenly Zod is alive and Superman is sporting Lycra spandex and trunks with no explanation other than just because...Then you'll have a point.


Just wait for the "Flashpoint" movie.

----------


## Frontier

> *Undateable Creator Adam Sztykiel to write Black Adam*
> 
> 
> 
>  Source


I still have a hard time buying a Black Adam movie  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Marvel more or less admitted that the first two Thor movies were mistakes and abandoned that franchises supporting cast, tone and direction in favour of one that resembles Guardians of the Galaxy. Why can't DC do the same?


As someone who wasn't crazy about what they did with the Thor franchise, I can't quite say I'd appreciate DC going in that direction even if I'm not the biggest fan of Snyder's creative vision (but I do respect it).



> Danny Elfman Confirms His Batman Theme Will Return In Justice League
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/danny-el...ustice-league/
> 
> *Its there from the beginning. Hans has done something wonderful, driven with rhythm and so on, but there has only been one theme and it is the Batman theme yes I used the theme that Hans composed for Wonder Woman, the one that he wrote originally and used a bit  maybe  from John Williams to Superman, just maybe, well have to see it.
> *


I'm kind of curious to see how it'll sound in the movie. 

But having the Trinity's iconic themes altogether in _Justice League_ feels fitting  :Smile: .

----------


## manofsteel1979

> *Danny Elfman Confirms His ‘Batman’ Theme Will Return In ‘Justice League’*
> 
> 
> 
> Video of interview


Wasn't a big fan of Batman's theme from BvS, and to be honest I don't think he really had one. Supes had one. Wonder Woman had one. Heck even Lex had one. Batman had a motiff Perhaps, but not a real theme that one could pick out. Also wasn't a fan of Zimmer's Dark Knight theme, so...I'm ok with this and referencing the Williams theme here and there for Superman. 

I do hope however that they will use " what are you doing when not saving the world" for Superman and perhaps at the end of the movie. I love that piece of music.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Just wait for the "Flashpoint" movie.


Again...All speculation. Depending on JL's performance there may not even BE a Flashpoint movie. They could just do a self contained Flash adventure or make it a JL sequel.

----------


## Pinsir

Not a single kid dressed in a Star Wars or Marvel costume showed up this year!  :Big Grin:  Only lots of Supermen, Batman, a single Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn, and a brother and sister compliment dressed as Mario and Luigi! Heck, I even saw a kid dressed up as a TNG era Star Fleet personnel.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Wasn't a big fan of Batman's theme from BvS, and to be honest I don't think he really had one. Supes had one. Wonder Woman had one. Heck even Lex had one. Batman had a motiff Perhaps, but not a real theme that one could pick out. Also wasn't a fan of Zimmer's Dark Knight theme, so...I'm ok with this and referencing the Williams theme here and there for Superman. 
> 
> I do hope however that they will use " what are you doing when not saving the world" for Superman and perhaps at the end of the movie. I love that piece of music.


Yeah I agree, he didn't really have a theme. Also a big fan of this. Hope it plays when he meets Lois.




I still hope the MoS Superman theme is used too.

----------


## Frontier

> Again...All speculation. Depending on JL's performance there may not even BE a Flashpoint movie. *They could just do a self contained Flash adventure* or make it a JL sequel.


If only  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Yeah I agree, he didn't really have a theme. Also a big fan of this. Hope it plays when he meets Lois.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still hope the MoS Superman theme is used too.


God, I love that theme.

----------


## Punisher007

> Because, unlike with MCU, WB/DC seem to be doing this to a loyal, and good guy, grieving the loss of his daughter. The same guy who refused the delay JL, picked Joss, and still promoted WW with a smile despite the tragedy he suffered.
> 
> This may not be intentional, or it is to appease people, but the timing makes it a bad look is all.


I'm sorry, but as much as I feel horrible for Snyder (and I do), personal tragedy does not automatically exempt him from criticism in his status as a filmmaker.  And it's be disrespectful to him to say that it does honestly.  "We have to treat you with kid gloves, and never criticize your professional work, even though it's completely divorced from the personal tragedy."  That's not, how it works.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Zimmer’s Man of Steel theme is beautiful. And I was so hoping we’d hear it during Superman’s return...

----------


## Vanguard-01

Exclusive clip! Diana smacking around Parademons  like they owe her money! What's not to love?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> As someone who wasn't crazy about what they did with the Thor franchise, I can't quite say I'd appreciate DC going in that direction even if I'm not the biggest fan of Snyder's creative vision (but I do respect it).


Yeah, I don't want it to go the Thor route either.  :EEK!:

----------


## Frontier

> Exclusive clip! Diana smacking around Parademons  like they owe her money! What's not to love?


Heh, "Old Gods"  :Wink: .

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Yeah, I don't want it to go the Thor route either.


Yeah, it's really sad what happened with the Thor "franchise". I mean there's so much Kirby and Simmonson stuff (respectively, of course) that they could mold entire epics out of and instead we get schlock (The Dark World) and another Guardians of the Galaxy (the upcoming joint). GoTG was a fun time the first go around but by the sequel, oh god I couldn't even get 5 minutes into it without checking out. Sad to see Thor is going that route.

I don't want DC to head that way.

----------


## Johnny

Cyborg's CGI still bothers me at times. When he is flying during that scene he looks great. Then when he's hacking the Bat-whatever-vehicle, he looks bad. Ironic that he seems to look better in motion, as compared to when he is standing still.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Yeah, it's really sad what happened with the Thor "franchise". I mean there's so much Kirby and Simmonson stuff (respectively, of course) that they could mold entire epics out of and instead we get schlock (The Dark World) and another Guardians of the Galaxy (the upcoming joint). GoTG was a fun time the first go around but by the sequel, oh god I couldn't even get 5 minutes into it without checking out. Sad to see Thor is going that route.
> 
> I don't want DC to head that way.


I agree with you. I want some lighter stories. More jokes. But if they are a bunch of clowns it would be bad. Get a balance. Something like the 1st Iron Man. It was funny. But not so much. I would be sorry if DC overcorrects. I hope they are learning from WW not GOTG.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Yeah, I don't want it to go the Thor route either.


Heck, I don't even want Thor to go down the THOR route.  I've enjoyed every MCU movie I've seen so far, but RAGNAROK is really swimming into shark-jumping waters.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Heck, I don't even want Thor to go down the THOR route.  I've enjoyed every MCU movie I've seen so far, but RAGNAROK is really swimming into shark-jumping waters.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I agree. Howard the Duck he's not.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Yes, they are. The retcon in Wonder Woman's backstory is just the beginning. Geoff Johns has a history of retconning or writing out of continuity everything that don't fit HIS vision of how the DC Universe should be. It's not so hard to believe that his goal is to erase or sweep under the rug every creative decision made by Zack.


The retcon was this and ONLY this:

Wonder Woman did not, as she said she did in BvS, turn her back on humanity for a century.

And any Wonder Woman I've ever known never would have. This was a matter of Snyder disrespecting the character of Diana, not of Johns disrespecting Snyder. The course correction is one ANY lover of WW would have made.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I agree with you. I want some lighter stories. More jokes. But if they are a bunch of clowns it would be bad. Get a balance. Something like the 1st Iron Man. It was funny. But not so much. I would be sorry if DC overcorrects. I hope they are learning from WW not GOTG.


For sure. There's plenty of comedy to be had in the ever so self-serious Thor, but turning the whole thing into a farce is just really sad. Just doesn't look interesting at all.

----------


## Agent Z

> The retcon was this and ONLY this:
> 
> Wonder Woman did not, as she said she did in BvS, turn her back on humanity for a century.
> 
> And any Wonder Woman I've ever known never would have. This was a matter of Snyder disrespecting the character of Diana, not of Johns disrespecting Snyder. The course correction is one ANY lover of WW would have made.


I thought you didn't care about whether or not these movies were identical to the comics?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The course correction is one ANY lover of WW would have made.


What a sweeping statement.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I thought you didn't care about whether or not these movies were identical to the comics?


I don't care if they're identical and I don't go around complaining about how out of character these classic characters are portrayed. I accept that it's an adaptation and there will always be changes, even fundamental ones at times. And often to the better. Heath Ledger's Joker was way off the mark from any classic interpretation but it was BETTER than any classic interpretation.

I was answering someone who said Johns was taking a dump on Snyder's ideas when all that happened was a retcon that Gal Gadot agreed was totally necessary to any portrayal of WW. That was how the story even came out: with Gadot saying it had been a mistake to have WW turn her back on society for a century but that they were fixing that. That turned into Johns is shitting all over Snyder and it was an absurd accusation.

You and Bogotazo below are acting like I made that post in a vacuum. I was reacting to someone that had very clearly overreacted to a change in continuity that meant we wouldn't be able to have any more WW movies but that they had her turning away from society for the whole of the 20th century or so. That was dead-end storytelling. Of course they had to change it. And of course it wasn't a case of Johns trying to undercut Snyder as the poster I was responding to suggested.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't care if they're identical and I don't go around complaining about how out of character these classic characters are portrayed. I accept that it's an adaptation and there will always be changes, even fundamental ones at times. And often to the better. Heath Ledger's Joker was way off the mark from any classic interpretation but it was BETTER than any classic interpretation.
> 
> I was answering someone who said Johns was taking a dump on Snyder's ideas when all that happened was a retcon that Gal Gadot agreed was totally necessary to any portrayal of WW. That was how the story even came out: with Gadot saying it had been a mistake to have WW turn her back on society for a century but that they were fixing that. That turned into Johns is shitting all over Snyder and it was an absurd accusation.
> 
> You and Bogotazo below are acting like I made that post in a vacuum. I was reacting to someone that had very clearly overreacted to a change in continuity that meant we wouldn't be able to have any more WW movies but that they had her turning away from society for the whole of the 20th century or so. That was dead-end storytelling. Of course they had to change it. And of course it wasn't a case of Johns trying to undercut Snyder as the poster I was responding to suggested.


The context doesn't save your statement from being sweeping. Not that it's some huge deal.

----------


## BatmanJones

> The context doesn't save your statement from being sweeping. Not that it's some huge deal.


It's sweeping in the way that saying "Any Batman fan would want Batman to wear a cape and cowl" is.

But I don't mind downgrading to "I would assume most Wonder Woman fans would prefer a Wonder Woman that didn't turn her back on society for 100 years, if only so there were story possibilities between WWI and BvS." That's all I meant to say about that. You've fixated on this one thing.

The point of my post was only to disagree with a post that said that Johns is disrespecting EVERYTHING Snyder has ever done because that poster read the report we all did where Gal Gadot told us that she was happy they were moving away from the plot point that had WW turning her back on society for 100 years. That was the totality of the post I was responding to. I responded to it to disagree with it. That's all. Is that controversial? Were we all really looking forward to those 100 years of not-stories? Was anyone? If not, I'm not sure my statement can be called inaccurate even if it was sweeping.

So do you agree with that poster, since you can't seem to stop replying to my post disagreeing with them? Do you also believe that Johns is disrespectfully steamrolling Snyder by getting rid of that "turned her back on society for a century" thing that Gal Gadot told us about and said she was glad for? And, furthermore, that Johns is in the process of overwriting ALL of Snyder as evidenced only by that one change? That's what the poster I responded to thought.

Or are you just really irritated with my admittedly too-many, rather repetitive posts criticizing the movie? That would make sense and would be utterly fair. Seriously.

Otherwise I don't know why you're so set on saying I made a sweeping statement (a statement that was hardly part of my post and certainly not the point of it) that you feel the need to point it out twice when I'm not arguing with you. Okay, it was a sweeping statement. Wow, it felt great to get that off my chest. I've been carrying around some major... wait, no I haven't. So what? I made a sweeping statement. Call the League of Hyperbole, hurry up!

I do make a lot of posts and I've made a lot about BvS because I've felt accused of disliking the film for reasons that weren't mine at all. And I can't seem to make a critical post without being falsely ascribed a silly motive for it. I recently had the first ever reply that DIDN'T do that and said thank you because it's so dang rare. So yeah, maybe I post too much about it. I hope JL will be so great I'll never have cause to post about BvS again. But, I mean, it's not like I've made nearly 4,000 posts or anything.

And, though I take it back since you seem strangely hung up on it, what's such a big deal about making a "sweeping statement?" Especially when I'm fully prepared to walk it back as soon as challenged?

----------


## Buried Alien

> I agree. Howard the Duck he's not.


There's something about RAGNAROK (right down to the lettering of the logo font) that screams, "cheapo late 80s/early 90s MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE movie with Dolph Lundgren as He-Man" rather than the latest offering from the mighty MCU.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It's sweeping in the way that saying "Any Batman fan would want Batman to wear a cape and cowl" is.
> 
> But I don't mind downgrading to "I would assume most Wonder Woman fans would prefer a Wonder Woman that didn't turn her back on society for 100 years, if only so there were story possibilities between WWI and BvS." That's all I meant to say about that. You've fixated on this one thing.


That reds like a reasonable downgrade because I don't see any near equivalence to what you wrote in the first line. 

The rest of your post is quite unnecessary since i was disagreeing with a piece of what you said. It's always annoying and pretentious to say "ANY fan of the character would make this same character choice!!"

----------


## BatmanJones

> That reds like a reasonable downgrade because I don't see any near equivalence to what you wrote in the first line. 
> 
> The rest of your post is quite unnecessary since i was disagreeing with a piece of what you said. It's always annoying and pretentious to say "ANY fan of the character would make this same character choice!!"


Fair enough. I can totally agree with that. It's not my intention to upset people here. I'll take it as a teachable moment.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Fair enough. I can totally agree with that. It's not my intention to upset people here. I'll take it as a teachable moment.


There is a little irony in the fact that the post I'd been referring to was nothing but sweeping statements and you didn't mind any of those but that doesn't mean I haven't learned my lesson. I don't mean to behave disrespectfully here and I'm always sorry when I make the mistake of doing that.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

The first critic screenings have taken place, and I believe the press junket in London is this weekend.

Social Media Embargo is still in place, no word yet on if it will be lifted.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Umberto Gonzalez (yes, I know he's a controversial figure around here but he's a DC fanboy) just posted on Twitter. It's a little ominous...

https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/925955808088616961

He likes to use photos as hints. For those who can't view the link, he tweeted "Yes, I saw Justice League." And then simply posted a photo of a statue of Batman looking down (sad). I think he was very disappointed.

----------


## Confuzzled

This writer seems to enjoy it as he hints that all the superhero movies this year were good: https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status/925959935342600192

----------


## Robotman

> Umberto Gonzalez (yes, I know he's a controversial figure around here but he's a DC fanboy) just posted on Twitter. It's a little ominous...
> 
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/925955808088616961
> 
> He likes to use photos as hints. For those who can't view the link, he tweeted "Yes, I saw Justice League." And then simply posted a photo of a statue of Batman looking down (sad). I think he was very disappointed.


Even if he’s full of crap it really sucks that we’re at this point. There’s a pretty good chance that WB has screwed up JUSTICE LEAGUE. A project that should have been the easiest home run of the genre. Granted it’s somethig they should have done years ago. They had no vision and Disney beat them to the punch.

----------


## golgi

Don't know how legit this guy is. 




> "Snyder's visuals with Whdeon's touch for humor and heart makes this one a winner


https://letterboxd.com/danielrpk/film/justice-league/




> Brandon Davis ✔@BrandonDavisBD
> I've watched Justice League and I absolutely cannot wait until I can talk all about it.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Even if he’s full of crap it really sucks that we’re at this point. There’s a pretty good chance that WB has screwed up JUSTICE LEAGUE. A project that should have been the easiest home run of the genre. Granted it’s somethig they should have done years ago. *They had no vision and Disney beat them to the punch*.


WB sat on their asses for too long and then suddenly realized they ran out of franchises to compete with the other studios.

----------


## golgi

Its not like they needed DC back then. WB still holds the record for 1b plus for 3 or so consecutive years. 

WB is generally the #1 studio. Hard to belive Disney has only taken the #1 spot once, even after they acquired Star Wars.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Umberto Gonzalez (yes, I know he's a controversial figure around here but he's a DC fanboy) just posted on Twitter. It's a little ominous...
> 
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/925955808088616961
> 
> He likes to use photos as hints. For those who can't view the link, he tweeted "Yes, I saw Justice League." And then simply posted a photo of a statue of Batman looking down (sad). I think he was very disappointed.


Apparently (from a tweet in response)

*"This is a statue from the press screening. @slashfilm posed with the same statue in IG"*

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Well, I seen it. Still kind of nuts that I just saw Justice League in a movie form. Just some quick impressions.

Was alright overall. Cool action scenes, some really nice crowdpleasing moments. Some of the editing is almost atrocious. You can tell the film was chopped up like crazy. EDIT: Lemme expand on this, more like I feel like some stuff got left out for movie length reasons. 

The soundtrack had some memorable bits but honestly I found it pretty meh. CGI seemed okay overall. The dialogue... not sure what I really feel about it. 

Going to sleep on it.

Just adding, it's my own opinion in case it isn't obvious. I think because the movie tries to be a crowd pleaser it'll do huge numbers, but who knows. I'm very curious to see how box office numbers pans out for sure."_

https://forums.boxofficetheory.com/t...omment-3229463

https://forums.boxofficetheory.com/t...omment-3229471

----------


## Jokerz79

> WB sat on their asses for too long and then suddenly realized they ran out of franchises to compete with the other studios.


I think the real issue is and this goes back to before the MCU and Disney if you look at all the dropped Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and JLA projects even before the MCU it's the DC properties are only one part of the larger Warner Bros. Studios. WB has so many other films to concentrate on and makes them a lot of money, gets them awards, and critical acclaim. The WB is so much more than just DC and it feels like they're unwilling to pull the trigger if they think the film will fail and also they're very reactionary if they think it will help. Last I think they sometimes suffer from too many cooks in the Kitchen.

Say what you will about Marvel Studios and Disney but Marvel Studios is a division of the company and Disney allows Fiege to run it so it has one person's vision and drive keeping it going. Also it's all Marvel Studios does is Marvel characters so they are determined to not fail they don't have other films to fall back on and no matter ones opinion of the MCU they don't fail at least as of yet they are financial hits, critical hits, and hits with the general audience.

I really believe DC properties would benefit if Time Warner set up a DC Studios which had autonomy from WB. Which had one person in charge and concentrated on their properties and only their properties.

----------


## Robotman

> _"Well, I seen it. Still kind of nuts that I just saw Justice League in a movie form. Just some quick impressions.
> 
> Was alright overall. Cool action scenes, some really nice crowdpleasing moments. Some of the editing is almost atrocious. You can tell the film was chopped up like crazy. EDIT: Lemme expand on this, more like I feel like some stuff got left out for movie length reasons. 
> 
> The soundtrack had some memorable bits but honestly I found it pretty meh. CGI seemed okay overall. The dialogue... not sure what I really feel about it. 
> 
> Going to sleep on it.
> 
> Just adding, it's my own opinion in case it isn't obvious. I think because the movie tries to be a crowd pleaser it'll do huge numbers, but who knows. I'm very curious to see how box office numbers pans out for sure."_
> ...


I’m ok with this review if it’s legit. This movie just needs to be a ‘B’ and it will be considered a success. They just need to make sure they don’t have another Suicide Squad or BvS situation. Something that critics hate and completely divides fans.

----------


## Confuzzled

I hope it manages a barely fresh tomato score or at the very least, be in the same neighborhood as Man of Steel. 

More than anything, I hope I personally enjoy the film and if it is a crowdpleaser, makes enough cash to give the other DC properties a chance.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'm guessing/hoping somewhere between 68 and 73 RT score and a consensus review like "While still carrying some of the grit and unevenness from its predecessors, 'Justice League' delivers on its promise of action-packed superhero fun."

----------


## Confuzzled

The actual RT description will be kinder if the movie scores in the higher 60's or low 70's as the website is owned by Time Warner (ironically enough). Something like "Much more lighter and successful as an action-packed popcorn entertainer than its DC Universe predecessors, if not completely free of their editing and tonal woes."

----------


## Jokerz79

> I hope it manages a barely fresh tomato score or at the very least, be in the same neighborhood as Man of Steel. 
> 
> More than anything, I hope I personally enjoy the film and if it is a crowdpleaser, makes enough cash to give the other DC properties a chance.


Truth is as long as Marvel is doing well because if Marvel shows comic films have a large audience no way will the WB walk away from that and the DCEU films are profitable which they all are the DCEU no matter what critics think will continue. In what form is the real question I mean will it change or stay on the current course? But we will have many more DC films in the future no matter what which is a good thing.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There's something about RAGNAROK (right down to the lettering of the logo font) that screams, "cheapo late 80s/early 90s MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE movie with Dolph Lundgren as He-Man" rather than the latest offering from the mighty MCU.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


It does seem different than what Marvel usually gives us.

----------


## Jokerz79

> It does seem different than what Marvel usually gives us.


Not going to lie there is nothing in that description that I don't love  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Not going to lie there is nothing in that description that I don't love


Heh. I have actually enjoyed the MCU so far, but they are getting a little too jokey now.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Heh. I have actually enjoyed the MCU so far, but they are getting a little too jokey now.


I look at the MCU as like Old Bond films and while Connery is my favorite I do love a good goofy Roger Moore Bond film so I have no issues with all the jokes.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> "Snyder's visuals with Whedon's touch for humor and heart makes this one a winner


Something tells me that many reviewers will conveniently forget that Chris Terrio wrote most of the script and dialogues.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Some rumblings coming out of the screenings about the editing of the film. We might have another BvS situation where the studio cut too much plot out again and the audience can sense they aren't seeing a full plot play out.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I look at the MCU as like Old Bond films and while Connery is my favorite I do love a good goofy Roger Moore Bond film so I have no issues with all the jokes.


In moderation, sure, but the Moore films weren't comedies and the MCU, IMO, shouldn't be, either (at least in regard for their serious characters).

----------


## Frontier

> Heh. I have actually enjoyed the MCU so far, but they are getting a little too jokey now.


_Dr. Strange_, of all things, did not need a "Single Ladies" joke  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Quasi-reaction from the guy who was one of the first to report on the 2 hour runtime:



> Relax, #JusticeLeague is solid, and some were surprised how good it is. You'll hear about it soon enough. Just calm down and relaaaax...
> *cute cat gif*


https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/926112074173882369

(I wonder if this counts as embargo violation)

(tbh at this point I really don't care what the critics say or the BO is, I just want an entertaining flick)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> _Dr. Strange_, of all things, did not need a "Single Ladies" joke .


Some people thought it was great, Frontier, but I personally kind of cringed at that myself.  :EEK!:

----------


## Doctor Know

> _Dr. Strange_, of all things, did not need a "Single Ladies" joke .


Dr Strange had 3 Beyonce jokes. X( 

Why?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Heh. I have actually enjoyed the MCU so far, but they are getting a little too jokey now.


Thor:R is a straight up comedy. Jeremy Jahns review he said "Thor is a comedy about the coming of Ragnarok" I then thought about it and he did have a point the film was a comedy through and through. 

Success of Guardians and lash of BvS, this is MARVELs blue print, the Thor:R logo change was a sign of things. I'm kinda deflated thinking about what could have been. 

To me MCU films lack any sort of intrigue now, CW is hardly brought up meanwhile BvS constantly is. Honestly MARVEL seem like they think they invented comedy, it's okay not everything has to become comedic so many instances where potential interesting scenes are ruined because they turned it into a gag. 

To me WW is the perfect film in terms of balancing tones and having the comedic elements be a lot more subtle.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> Thor:R is a straight up comedy. Jeremy Jahns review he said "Thor is a comedy about the coming of Ragnarok" I then thought about it and he did have a point the film was a comedy through and through. 
> 
> Success of Guardians and lash of BvS, this is MARVELs blue print, the Thor:R logo change was a sign of things. I'm kinda deflated thinking about what could have been. 
> 
> To me MCU films lack any sort of intrigue now, CW is hardly brought up meanwhile BvS constantly is. Honestly MARVEL seem like they think they invented comedy, it's okay not everything has to become comedic so many instances where potential interesting scenes are ruined because they turned it into a gag. 
> 
> To me WW is the perfect film in terms of balancing tones and having the comedic elements be a lot more subtle.


BVS is brought up because it was a bad movie that was too long that introduced everyone and there mothers names into the DCEU for Justice League. BVS is the textbook example of a bad movie to build a superhero universe with. People talk about it because where it doesn't work as a movie it is an educational device to dissect the shambling corpse not only to find out what went wrong, but if it possessed anything of merit. The only thing found so far was Wonder Woman.

Also intrigue? What does that mean?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Thor:R is a straight up comedy. Jeremy Jahns review he said "Thor is a comedy about the coming of Ragnarok" I then thought about it and he did have a point the film was a comedy through and through. 
> 
> Success of Guardians and lash of BvS, this is MARVELs blue print, the Thor:R logo change was a sign of things. I'm kinda deflated thinking about what could have been.


Marvel's blueprint? Sounds like they're aping the Batman '66 template for the new Thor film.  :Smile: 




> To me WW is the perfect film in terms of balancing tones and having the comedic elements be a lot more subtle.


Exactly. I never felt the jokes were inappropriately placed in that film.

----------


## Buried Alien

> It does seem different than what Marvel usually gives us.


I think Marvel only got away with RAGNAROK because it had a long winning streak and great track record coming in.  MCU has goodwill capital to spare.  If they tried to launch the THOR movie franchise or the MCU in general with that kind of movie, it would have been a catastrophe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Frontier

> I think Marvel only got away with RAGNAROK because it had a long winning streak and great track record coming in.  MCU has goodwill capital to spare.  If they tried to launch the THOR movie franchise or the MCU in general with that kind of movie, it would have been a catastrophe.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


The Marvel formula at this point seems to be to take something and make it as fun and comedic as possible, and have that pay dividends, which seems to be working so far.

So Thor in the movies isn't working as well as they'd like? Just up the comedy and fun-factor and watch it pay off. 

The only exceptions to this, for the most part, seem to be the Russo brothers movies. 

Heck, I think even_ Homceoming's_ tone was a little more balanced compared to _Guardians_ or what I'm seeing from _Ragnarok_.

----------


## Doctor Know

> BVS is brought up because it was a bad movie that was too long that introduced everyone and there mothers names into the DCEU for Justice League. BVS is the textbook example of a bad movie to build a superhero universe with. People talk about it because where it doesn't work as a movie it is an educational device to dissect the shambling corpse not only to find out what went wrong, but if it possessed anything of merit. The only thing found so far was Wonder Woman.
> 
> Also intrigue? What does that mean?


There are tons of bad movies that people don't talk about anymore. My favorites are the ones that manage to score positive ratings on RT.

Such as:

Alien Covenant and Prometheus

Hunger Games Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2

Ghostbusters 2016

The Hobbit Trilogy

The Star Wars Prequels

Quantum of Solace and Spectre

Age of Ultron, Iron Man 2, Thor The Dark World, Spider-Man 3, Superman Returns

Indiana Jones And The Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull 

Mother!, Joy, Warm Bodies, 28 Weeks Later, Colossal, Tiny Furniture, Les Miserables


Everyone accepts these movies to be bad. However, with the a positive review from critics (fresh and certified fresh), no one feels compelled to castigate or even mention how bad these films are or call out critics for getting it wrong. The one exception would be the RLM and the Star Wars Prequels. Their reviews were made 10+ years after the films debuted in theaters. 


If a film is bad, like the one's I've listed, why not let it die? 

MOS was debated right up till BvS was released. Now BvS is being picked apart still, right up till JL's release. The people throwing stones at Suicide Squad are the only ones keeping it topical. Mostly in disbelief that it was such a big financial success, over it's positively (certified fresh) reviewed competition (The BFG, Ghostbusters and Star Trek Beyond) and that it won an Academy Award. 


Then you have bad movies that people stopped talking about right after they left theaters. 

Such as:
X-Men Apocalypse 
The Mummy
Transformers 5
Pirates of the Caribbean 6
Ghost In The Shell
King Arthur
Ben-Hurr
Gods of Egypt
TMNT 2


To answer your question: intrigue means to inspire curiosity or engage a person cognitively.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Mark Strong In Talks For Villain Role In Shazam!*




> After finding its Captain Marvel in Chuck alum Zachary Levi, New Line and DC Entertainments Shazam! is looking to cast Kingsman star Mark Strong as a villain.
> 
> The Wrap reports that Strong is in talks to play Doctor Sivana, a frequent foe of Shazam who first appeared opposite the superhero in the pages of Whiz Comics back in 1940.
> 
> Plot details are being kept tightly under wraps. The film is being directed by Annabelle: Creation helmer David F. Sandberg from a script written by Henry Gayden and Darren Lemke. Production on the project is expected to begin in February of next year.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There are tons of bad movies that people don't talk about anymore. My favorites are the ones that manage to score positive ratings on RT.
> 
> Such as:
> 
> Alien Covenant and Prometheus
> 
> Hunger Games Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2
> 
> Ghostbusters 2016
> ...


IOW, the problems regarding BvS with many critics is less to do with quality than expectations. If it were mainly quality, we wouldn't be talking about it now. Yes, I agree with you.  :Smile:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think Marvel only got away with RAGNAROK because it had a long winning streak and great track record coming in.  MCU has goodwill capital to spare.  If they tried to launch the THOR movie franchise or the MCU in general with that kind of movie, it would have been a catastrophe.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Which begs the question: are Thor comic-book fans happy with the wacky, zany God of Thunder in the later movies? I haven't checked the Marvel forum in a while, so I have no idea.

----------


## Frontier

> *Mark Strong In Talks For Villain Role In ‘Shazam!’*


Strong as Sivana? Okay  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I guess we're definitely going for a more serious take on him rather compared to the more goofy classic version (although I hope some of the classic Sivana trappings are still here).

It is nice to see Strong set for another DC work again, and I hope he's used well here given his Sinestro was the highlight of the original _Green Lantern_ movie.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> There are tons of bad movies that people don't talk about anymore. My favorites are the ones that manage to score positive ratings on RT.
> 
> Such as:
> 
> Alien Covenant and Prometheus
> 
> Hunger Games Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2
> 
> Ghostbusters 2016
> ...


Right exactly. No one talks about Fant4stic at all and that is considered a really "bad movie". 

BvS left an impression on the viewers be it good or bad doesn't matter, the phrase "no such thing as bad publicity". If BvS is still being talked about constantly it showed it did it's job as a film by the fact it isn't leaving people's minds.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Right exactly. No one talks about Fant4stic at all and that is considered a really "bad movie". 
> 
> BvS left an impression on the viewers be it good or bad doesn't matter, the phrase "no such thing as bad publicity". If BvS is still being talked about constantly it showed it did it's job as a film by the fact it isn't leaving people's minds.


Agreed.  Whether you love it or hate it, one thing that you can't call BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE is "forgettable."  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Which begs the question: are Thor comic-book fans happy with the wacky, zany God of Thunder in the later movies? I haven't checked the Marvel forum in a while, so I have no idea.


I have no issue with the wacky take on Thor, because like most comic book characters he can be twisted and tailored to fit whatever the story at hand is (this is why superheroes are awesome). However, I wish that they wouldn't have used Ragnarok for a wacky Thor story.

----------


## Frontier

> Which begs the question: are Thor comic-book fans happy with the wacky, zany God of Thunder in the later movies? I haven't checked the Marvel forum in a while, so I have no idea.


I'm not. 

I think you can have fun and zany adventures with Thor, but I don't think that's the kind of story you should make into Ragnarok or what his stories should generally be like.

He's a very noble, regal, figure and hero who has these epic, sweeping, Shakespearing stories. I don't think that should warrant making him or his stories into a joke-a-minute adventures.

----------


## Troian

> And any Wonder Woman I've ever known never would have. This was a matter of Snyder disrespecting the character of Diana, not of Johns disrespecting Snyder. The course correction is one ANY lover of WW would have made.


I love WW as a character but I don't agree with that statement. I'd be just as happy with Diana turning her back on mankind. I don't think its disrespecting when WW has been contorted, twisted and changed in almost every aspect for over 75 years. Besides I found that fact interesting. After seeing many horrors she gets burned out. Big deal. So many people do. I don't see why its "unacceptable" or disrespecftul to her character when the core, kind Diana is still here.

----------


## Jokerz79

Marvel is successful because they're fun and it's that simply. People go to most comic book movies and they want fun it's an inherently goofy medium with characters wearing colorful costumes that was created for children. Some characters lend themselves to more serious and grounded interpretations namely Batman at DC or perhaps Constantine, Swamp Thing, or others and for Marvel there the Netflix characters like Punisher, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Iron Fist, or Luke Cage. But take Captain America you can have a serious story with him but also he's a guy in a flag suit and that's kind of goofy but take it away and he just boils down to Jason Bourne or Rambo. Thor dude with magic hammer from space to many that's a goofy character but they go to the theater and Marvel gives them a colorful, fun, action film with him and it's a win for them. I really think after decades of trying to get these characters taken seriously comic fans have become a little too serious.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I love WW as a character but I don't agree with that statement. I'd be just as happy with Diana turning her back on mankind. I don't think its disrespecting when WW has been contorted, twisted and changed in almost every aspect for over 75 years. Besides I found that fact interesting. After seeing many horrors she gets burned out. Big deal. So many people do. I don't see why its "unacceptable" or disrespecftul to her character when the core, kind Diana is still here.


Besides, taking a 100-year break for her is comparable to us taking a few months off.  :Smile:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Agreed.  Whether you loved it or hate it, *one thing that you can't call BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE is "forgettable.*"  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Although many on these boards sure try :P

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'm not. 
> 
> I think you can have fun and zany adventures with Thor, but I don't think that's the kind of story you should make into Ragnarok or what his stories should generally be like.
> 
> He's a very noble, regal, figure and hero who has these epic, sweeping, Shakespearing stories. I don't think that should warrant making him or his stories into a joke-a-minute adventures.





> I have no issue with the wacky take on Thor, because like most comic book characters he can be twisted and tailored to fit whatever the story at hand is (this is why superheroes are awesome). However, I wish that they wouldn't have used Ragnarok for a wacky Thor story.


FWIW, I'm not against silly superhero movies. The Lego movies are a great example of films fun for the whole family. If Plastic Man, i.e., ever gets a solo, the last thing I would want is a dark, gloomy film. But for the serious characters (like Thor), I would rather the live-action movies be within the comic-book ballpark.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Marvel is successful because they're fun and it's that simply. People go to most comic book movies and they want fun it's an inherently goofy medium with characters wearing colorful costumes that was created for children. Some characters lend themselves to more serious and grounded interpretations namely Batman at DC or perhaps Constantine, Swamp Thing, or others and for Marvel there the Netflix characters like Punisher, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Iron Fist, or Luke Cage. But take Captain America you can have a serious story with him but also he's a guy in a flag suit and that's kind of goofy but take it away and he just boils down to Jason Bourne or Rambo. Thor dude with magic hammer from space to many that's a goofy character but they go to the theater and Marvel gives them a colorful, fun, action film with him and it's a win for them. I really think after decades of trying to get these characters taken seriously comic fans have become a little too serious.


I don't agree that comic fans shouldn't want serious takes on their characters, but you're right in that the casual audience isn't looking for that. I was looking at the Avengers reviews on RT out of curiosity and this stood out, by David Kaplan:

*"There is much humor laced throughout the film, giving it an air of not taking itself too seriously -- which is as it should be in a film of this genre."

".. which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
*

Not everyone has this mentality. But enough do that it's almost a stigma to go for authentic drama for characters outside of Batman. Any missteps and they're doubly punished. WW was so perfectly balanced that it escaped that fate (and it helped she had no strong expectations attached to her character). RDJ didn't stop any of the accolades TDK got but he's not the only one with this viewpoint:

_The Dark Knight. My whole thing is that that I saw The Dark Knight. I feel like Im dumb because I feel like I dont get how many things that are so smart. Its like a Ferrari engine of storytelling and script writing and Im like, Thats not my idea of what I want to see in a movie. I loved The Prestige but didnt understand The Dark Knight. Didnt get it, still cant tell you what happened in the movie, what happened to the character and in the end they need him to be a bad guy. Im like, I get it. This is so high brow and so fucking smart, I clearly need a college education to understand this movie. You know what? Fuck DC comics. Thats all I have to say and thats where Im really coming from.
_
Enter the supposedly stoic and mythical divine being Thor describing Hulk to an alien arena audience as "A friend from work!"

----------


## Carabas

> Which begs the question: are Thor comic-book fans happy with the wacky, zany God of Thunder in the later movies? I haven't checked the Marvel forum in a while, so I have no idea.


I don't know about dedicated Thor fanatics, but I while have always liked the more serious version of Thor from the comics, I'm glad that Marvel finally figured out Chris Hemsworth is a fantastic comedic actor.

----------


## golgi

> Jeremy Conrad ✔@ManaByte
> Full #JusticeLeague impressions are still embargoed, and despite positive vibes coming out, people are reacting like this to anything:





> KC Walsh @TheComixKid
> Talked to a couple of people at #JusticeLeague press screening, I think we can all take a deep breath and relax
> 10:21 AM - Nov 2, 2017





> Jeremy Conrad ✔@ManaByte
> Relax, #JusticeLeague is solid, and some were surprised how good it is. You'll hear about it soon enough.
> 
> Just calm down and relaaaax...


Pretty positive so far.

----------


## Frontier

I think, with the Superhero genre, you can definitely tell compelling and serious stories and character arcs but that it's important not to lose sight of the fact that these are characters that kids and families also look up to and enjoy, so you also shouldn't miss out on the fun and the optimism that they endear as well. 

But, vice-versa, you don't want to go too into the fun that there are no stakes or meaningful involvement in what people are watching. 

It's a very tricky balance.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't agree that comic fans shouldn't want serious takes on their characters, but you're right in that the casual audience isn't looking for that. I was looking at the Avengers reviews on RT out of curiosity and this stood out, by David Kaplan:
> 
> *"There is much humor laced throughout the film, giving it an air of not taking itself too seriously -- which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
> 
> ".. which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
> *
> 
> Not everyone has this mentality. But enough do that it's almost a stigma to go for authentic drama for characters outside of Batman. Any missteps and they're doubly punished. WW was so perfectly balanced that it escaped that fate (and it helped she had no strong expectations attached to her character). RDJ didn't stop any of the accolades TDK got but he's not the only one with this viewpoint:
> 
> ...


Yep. Too many critics think superheroes are strictly juvenile entertainment and their reviews reflect that sentiment, unfortunately.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't know about dedicated Thor fanatics, but I while have always liked the more serious version of Thor from the comics, I'm glad that Marvel finally figured out Chris Hemsworth is a fantastic comedic actor.


He is good that way, granted. Much better than his dramatic acting, IMO.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think, with the Superhero genre, you can definitely tell compelling and serious stories and character arcs but that it's important not to lose sight of the fact that these are characters that kids and families also look up to and enjoy, so you also shouldn't miss out on the fun and the optimism that they endear as well. 
> 
> But, vice-versa, you don't want to go too into the fun that there are no stakes or meaningful involvement in what people are watching. 
> 
> It's a very tricky balance.


Very true. What I like as an adult is not exactly what I liked as a kid, but there is still plenty that both versions of me could agree on wholeheartedly regarding superhero flicks.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think, with the Superhero genre, you can definitely tell compelling and serious stories and character arcs but that it's important not to lose sight of the fact that these are characters that kids and families also look up to and enjoy, so you also shouldn't miss out on the fun and the optimism that they endear as well. 
> 
> But, vice-versa, you don't want to go too into the fun that there are no stakes or meaningful involvement in what people are watching. 
> 
> It's a very tricky balance.


Yeah it's tricky. Well put.

Completely off topic, Green Lantern is on TV right now and the initial establishment of Hal Jordan is so promising. They got subtleties of his character I didn't expect them to. Sinestro is great too. But it all starts to go downhill with that Kilowog training scene.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

According to El Mayimbe writing for the Wrap, Mark Strong (previously Sinestro of 2011's ill-fated GL flick) is in talks to play Doctor Sivana in Shazam.

Feels that the Shazam movie is taking a lot from Johns' New 52 Shazam, with the exception of Black Adam as the main villain.

And according to Variety:



> Grace Fulton is in negotiations to join New Line’s DC superhero film “Shazam!” starring Zachary Levi, sources tell Variety.
> 
> The film follows a boy named Billy Batson who can transform into an adult superhero by uttering the magic word “Shazam!” The name is an acronym of the ancient gods and historical figures Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury, who Batson derives his heroic attributes from when in adult form.
> 
> *Fulton will play one of Batson’s friends*. The Wrap also reports that Mark Strong is in talks for the role of the villain.

----------


## Frontier

> According to El Mayimbe writing for the Wrap, Mark Strong (previously Sinestro of 2011's ill-fated GL flick) is in talks to play Doctor Sivana in Shazam.
> 
> Feels that the Shazam movie is taking a lot from Johns' New 52 Shazam, with the exception of Black Adam as the main villain.
> 
> And according to Variety:


She seems to old to be Mary unless they age her up (but then, what would be the point of the Shazam transformation?), or Billy's a lot older.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Although many on these boards sure try :P


They automatically fail because THEY KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT!   :Big Grin: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Soubhagya

> Pretty positive so far.


Thanks for sharing. This is too few. But some positive vibes are good.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#52de8b86ebd9

In other news Wonder Woman has just crossed the BO of the original Spider-Man to become the highest grossing solo superhero origin film of all time!

----------


## Soubhagya

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#52de8b86ebd9
> 
> In other news Wonder Woman has just crossed the BO of the original Spider-Man to become the highest grossing solo superhero origin film of all time!


Awesome news!

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Agreed.  Whether you loved it or hate it, one thing that you can't call BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE is "forgettable."  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Absolutely. That movie is many things, but I will always give it credit for swinging for the fences.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I don't agree that comic fans shouldn't want serious takes on their characters, but you're right in that the casual audience isn't looking for that. I was looking at the Avengers reviews on RT out of curiosity and this stood out, by David Kaplan:
> 
> *"There is much humor laced throughout the film, giving it an air of not taking itself too seriously -- which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
> 
> ".. which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
> *
> 
> Not everyone has this mentality. But enough do that it's almost a stigma to go for authentic drama for characters outside of Batman. Any missteps and they're doubly punished. WW was so perfectly balanced that it escaped that fate (and it helped she had no strong expectations attached to her character). RDJ didn't stop any of the accolades TDK got but he's not the only one with this viewpoint:
> 
> ...


Wow....i've never read that quote from RDJ. He's entittled to not like TDK....but "Fuck DC Comics"?  Geez...

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Wow....i've never read that quote from RDJ. He's entittled to not like TDK....but "Fuck DC Comics"?  Geez...


This is why I’ve never had an issue with that time Mamoa signed a picture with “Fuck Marvel!”

The internet sure hated it, but I figured it was an earned response.

----------


## BatmanJones

I've decided what I most want out of Justice League. Apart from wanting it to be great or at least good, _believing_ it will be GREAT until further notice, and wanting it to succeed like crazy so we get a lot more DC movies, STAT...

What I want to see most is the maximum number of cameos. This is a NO SPOILER thread, but I'm curious to know who people would love to see show up. Please do not even joke about rumors. I'm unspoiled on this point and several others will be as well.

This is a wishful thinking thing. If people respond to say they think it would make a fun poll I'll create a new thread for it. But only if there's interest.

I want to see:

Nightwing/Robin - Any Robin or Nightwing would make me wet my pants. Chris O'Donnell/Schumacher does not count. And therefore we've had 5 modern Batman movies and have yet to see even a flashback cameo to the most classic duo of all time: "Batman and Robin." If Nightwing or Robin is in this movie and we get our first real modern live-action take on Batman and Robin or Batman and Nightwing that would be enough to make me love the movie forever. In order of preference: Dick Grayson Robin (flashback), Tim Drake Robin (current), Nightwing, Jason Todd (necessarily flashback), Damian. I'd prefer they save Damian. I want to see a more classic Robin first.

Green Lantern(s) - Any and all would make me happy. I'd be disappointed I guess to get a GL we'd never seen before but any GL from the comics would be a great treat for me and I'd love to see the JL fighting together with a GL. The color scheme has been off with the "big five" even though they made Aquaman wear all green. My geek out JL movie moment just has GL in it. It just does.

Martian Manhunter - See above. Maybe DC makes everyone happy and has 8 founders to accommodate GL, MM, _and_ Cyborg fans. Hey, I'm fantasizing here!

Green Arrow - Joined in #4, practically a founder, a good character guy

Black Canary - along with Mera, more ass-kicking women. Apart from my longtime Harley burnout (I did like Margot Robbie) I'd be happy with any female superhero. Which brings me to...

Hawkman and Hawkgirl - who doesn't want to see them soaring through the air taking out parademons in their Thanagarian costumes?

Elongated Man. What? I love Elongated Man.

Classic JLA villain: Starro, Kanjar Ro, Despero, the Royal Flush Gang, Dr. (Arthur) Light... any classic JL villains for them to cut their teeth on. Or to provide the outro to the film, showing them continuing to do battle together.

How about someone freaky like Swamp Thing?

I've decided. This is what I want most. The most live-action versions of DC heroes and villains possible.

WITHOUT REFERENCING A SINGLE RUMOR beyond the six (incl. Superman), WHO DO YOU WANT TO SEE?

And/or what do you most hope to see in this film?

----------


## BatmanJones

Incidentally "Robin" was my answer to my friend with whom I saw BvS. Right before it started she said, "What do you want to see the most?" I immediately fired back, "Anything to do with Robin beyond the suit we saw in the trailer."

It's true I've waited over 40 years just wishing and wishing for a movie with both Batman and Superman in it. For me, that was the dream because that had to happen for the REAL dream: a JLA movie.

But as important as it was to see the World's Finest in Superman and Batman it was that important to me to see the dynamic duo in Batman and Robin. I honestly can't believe it's taken so long and if any version of Robin is in JL I'll watch it every dang day.

----------


## BatmanJones

I don't mean to say that I imagine they will expand the League's membership, only that I want cameos.

Even if it's just one-shots of various characters popping up near the end as a result of the example the JL set for them, I would love it. I would hope for more than news reports,  more than mov. files on a computer like in BvS, more than name-checks though I'll gorge on any easter egg they include. 

When I say the Hawks, I'd be happy just to see them fly by. And what if a closeup showed The Atom on Katar's shoulder? Just for a split second.

What if a bunch of characters showed up at the end wanting to try out? How bad ass would that be?

I don't expect ANY of these things to be included or any surprise cameos either. But moments that are anything like the ones above, that show us more characters, would make this movie for me, no matter what else happens in it.

----------


## BatmanJones

I would also be BEYOND satisfied by a mid- or post-credits scene with the classic Trinity-around-the-table looking at photographs and discussing membership recruitment. Four or five great lines in a scene like that... that kind of name-checking would satisfy this whole desire for cameos because it would be so fun to see that familiar scene.

That would probably give me a heart attack but I would die smiling.

I have so many fantasies about this movie. I'm trying to keep my expectations as low as possible so I'm happier when I walk out of the cinema than when I walk into it.

I have not been a fan of the Snyder movies and I was (fan-)crushed by my personal disappointment in BvS but I can't help being optimistic about these sorts of things.

I always believe walking in that a DC movie will be GREAT and I'll LOVE it.

I always start a Houston Rockets game believing they'll win, no matter how lean some years have been.

And I always expect Americans to vote Democrat.

I think it was Superman that instilled that sense of optimism in me. I'm expecting an "A" for Justice League. That's only because I'm trying so hard not to expect an "A+."

----------


## BatmanJones

Another incredible geek out moment would be a post-trailer scene based on "Flash of Two Worlds" where Barry meets his comic book hero Jay. And then maybe build to a JL/JSA movie.

There are so many things they could do to make me happy with this movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I've decided what I most want out of Justice League. Apart from wanting it to be great or at least good, _believing_ it will be GREAT until further notice, and wanting it to succeed like crazy so we get a lot more DC movies, STAT...
> 
> What I want to see most is the maximum number of cameos. This is a NO SPOILER thread, but I'm curious to know who people would love to see show up. Please do not even joke about rumors. I'm unspoiled on this point and several others will be as well.
> 
> This is a wishful thinking thing. If people respond to say they think it would make a fun poll I'll create a new thread for it. But only if there's interest.
> 
> I want to see:
> 
> Nightwing/Robin - Any Robin or Nightwing would make me wet my pants. Chris O'Donnell/Schumacher does not count. And therefore we've had 5 modern Batman movies and have yet to see even a flashback cameo to the most classic duo of all time: "Batman and Robin." If Nightwing or Robin is in this movie and we get our first real modern live-action take on Batman and Robin or Batman and Nightwing that would be enough to make me love the movie forever. In order of preference: Dick Grayson Robin (flashback), Tim Drake Robin (current), Nightwing, Jason Todd (necessarily flashback), Damian. I'd prefer they save Damian. I want to see a more classic Robin first.
> ...


He’s not a member of the League, but I’m hoping for a secret cameo of Russell Crowe as Jor El. Zod seemingly purged Jor El’s AI from the ship in MoS, but if anyone could reconstitute the program it should be Cyborg, using Motherbox technology; having Jor El explain that the Codex could be used to resserrect Kal would be a great endcap to Snyder’s trilogy. Also, MoS had a theme about fathers, while BvS had a theme about mothers...JL could close the circle by bringing back Jor El for a cameo (we already know Martha Kent will be in it in some capacity, unless she got cut). 

They kept Costner’s cameo a secret last time, so I have fingers crossed.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Wow....i've never read that quote from RDJ. He's entittled to not like TDK....but "Fuck DC Comics"?  Geez...


I'm just trying to understand why you need a college education to see the movie. _My Dinner with Andre_ it's not.  :Smile:

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't agree that comic fans shouldn't want serious takes on their characters, but you're right in that the casual audience isn't looking for that. I was looking at the Avengers reviews on RT out of curiosity and this stood out, by David Kaplan:
> 
> *"There is much humor laced throughout the film, giving it an air of not taking itself too seriously -- which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
> 
> ".. which is as it should be in a film of this genre."
> *
> 
> Not everyone has this mentality. But enough do that it's almost a stigma to go for authentic drama for characters outside of Batman. Any missteps and they're doubly punished. WW was so perfectly balanced that it escaped that fate (and it helped she had no strong expectations attached to her character). RDJ didn't stop any of the accolades TDK got but he's not the only one with this viewpoint:
> 
> ...



I have always thought that critics are a bit too critical to DC films. They may not be good but they are not so bad that they get such scores in RT. In a similar vein Marvel films are good but not so good that they get such high scores in RT. So, it appears that there is a stigma associated with it. That's good for JL. Apparently It won't go as down to 20s. Critics are more forgiving to lighter films. Let us see what DC tries next. 

RDJ could not understand Dark Knight. I will take it as a compliment. Though i can't understand how he could not understand. I am unhappy with those words. He can have his view but such words are not good.

----------


## nightbird

40 Plus Hi-Res ‘Justice League’ Production Photos Released

IMG_1003.jpg

http://pursuenews.com/40-plus-hi-res...otos-released/

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> 40 Plus Hi-Res ‘Justice League’ Production Photos Released
> 
> IMG_1003.jpg
> 
> http://pursuenews.com/40-plus-hi-res...otos-released/


Neptune's beard does that look good

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 40 Plus Hi-Res ‘Justice League’ Production Photos Released
> 
> IMG_1003.jpg
> 
> http://pursuenews.com/40-plus-hi-res...otos-released/


Daaaaamn! Lookin' good, Mera!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Although many on these boards sure try :P


I don't think anyone has the opinion that BvS is forgettable. Most people just think it's not very good. And others do think it's good of course.

I think BvS is continuously talked about for various reasons. The biggest reason I feel is a lot of hype that turned into disappointment (for some people, not all). Didn't we all know about BvS for almost three years until it's release? The movie was hyped and marketed by both people at WB/DC and fans as this soon-to-be modern pop culture phenomenon, and it didn't really deliver on that. It's one thing to say you liked the movie, but I think pretty much everyone can admit that BvS did not stick with people (including the general audience) because it was the great DC trinity on screen together for the first time. I don't think the first Avengers film is so revolutionary in it's story. It's pretty generic in plot and good enough in my opinion. But what stuck with people was the fact that these heroes they started to get to know for four years finally came together. Marvel Studios was able to pull that off with characters the general audience wasn't too knowledgeable about as they were about Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Can you imagine what it would have been like for the MCU is Avengers had failed? I should also add that comparing BvS to F4ntastic doesn't make such sense, because nobody wanted another Fantastic Four movie under FOX, and many saw it as a sly attempt to keep the film rights and as a cash grab.

Secondly (and I'm not saying this about anyone here) a lot of DC/DCEU/Zack Synder fanatics took it upon themselves to continuously take shots at the MCU and it's fans. This even extended to Zack Synder, Ben Affleck and Deborah Snyder as well (though I think hers was more like shade to Marvel Studios than an actual dis). The fanatics themselves kept saying on many boards that "the DCEU will show [Marvel fans] how it's done", "create a better cinematic universe", that the general audience is tired of "Marvel's kiddie movies", "people will take the DCEU seriously" and all of that. Zack Snyder himself called Ant-Man "flavor of the week" (something I do kinda agree with), Ben Affleck also said that BvS and other DCEU films "are more grandiose and can't be as funny or as glib as Marvel movies" and Deborah Snyder said that the DCEU films are more "director driven", if I am not mistaken, around the time Ant-Man (which infamously had directorial issues) had come out, or she just said it anyway and it was interpreted as a dig to Marvel Studios who has had issues with directors before. Whether or not one agrees with these statements is irrelevant because they said these things either way. Because of this, what happened to BvS (and the DCEU in general in 2016) was seen as karma for all those comments. It's a petty war between the fanboys of both sides of course, but Marvel 'won' at the end of it. Civil War does not get brought up repeatedly the way BvS did because it was another critical and commercial success for Marvel, while BvS, though an undeniable box office hit, seemingly performed below some expectations (the whole "it should have crossed a billion dollars" thing) and its performance was actually affected by the negative critical reception/word of mouth if I am not mistaken. Even Iron Man 2, which many of us in the fandom believe is bad, was not panned by critics. Not to talk of the persistence from the "BvS is too smart for you" crowd.

I personally don't like the film at all, but one can't deny that there's obvious reasons why BvS is still brought up unlike other bad movies. Whether it's just because it dared to be different I think isn't enough to say why it is. I think it's because it was hyped so much and disappointed a lot.

----------


## Soubhagya

> 40 Plus Hi-Res Justice League Production Photos Released
> 
> Attachment 57269
> 
> http://pursuenews.com/40-plus-hi-res...otos-released/


She looks good!

----------


## Jokerz79

> I have always thought that critics are a bit too critical to DC films. They may not be good but they are not so bad that they get such scores in RT. In a similar vein Marvel films are good but not so good that they get such high scores in RT. So, it appears that there is a stigma associated with it. That's good for JL. Apparently It won't go as down to 20s. Critics are more forgiving to lighter films. Let us see what DC tries next. 
> 
> RDJ could not understand Dark Knight. I will take it as a compliment. Though i can't understand how he could not understand. I am unhappy with those words. He can have his view but such words are not good.


I think Rotten Tomatoes gets way too much hate honestly their scores are pretty fair.

The Nolan Batman Films all scored well with 84 for Batman Begins and both Dark Knights getting 87. Superman Returns 76 and Green Lantern got a 27 but GL was a bad movie. Now as for the DCEU

Wonder Woman got a 92 and it was a great film.
Man of Steel was pretty divisive because of it's interpretation of Superman and got a 55 which sounds fair.
BvS got a 27 but that is the theatrical cut which was a mess IMO thanks to the Studio and it deserved it's 27.
Suicide Squad got a 26 another film the Studio hacked apart in the editing room allowing a trailer house to do edits so again IMO they earned that. 

Now looking at some of the lesser entries or joke filled films of the MCU.
Age of Ultron 75, Iron Man 2 73, Thor Dark World 66, Ant-Man 82, GOTG 2 82 while all scoring well none scored as well as the Nolan Trilogy or WW. Marvel delivered on what they promised a fun entertaining movie experience that's it so critics were kind and rated by that. The DCEU films that got partially slaughtered were ones that the studio hacked apart in editing is it any shock they did poor critically? IMO the anger should be at WB for not trusting their Directors and the films they made instead of Rotten Tomatoes.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I think Rotten Tomatoes gets way too much hate honestly their scores are pretty fair.
> 
> The Nolan Batman Films all scored well with 84 for Batman Begins and both Dark Knights getting 87. Superman Returns 76 and Green Lantern got a 27 but GL was a bad movie. Now as for the DCEU
> 
> Wonder Woman got a 92 and it was a great film.
> Man of Steel was pretty divisive because of it's interpretation of Superman and got a 55 which sounds fair.
> BvS got a 27 but that is the theatrical cut which was a mess IMO thanks to the Studio and it deserved it's 27.
> Suicide Squad got a 26 another film the Studio hacked apart in the editing room allowing a trailer house to do edits so again IMO they earned that. 
> 
> ...


Exactly! Someone gets it. There's really no bias at all. There are other things that made BvS and SS bad other than the tone of those movies. The pacing in the TC of BvS is atrocious. The UC for me, fixes that problem but I still think it's a very bad movie. Acting like there's some sort of bias and only looking at the tone is what many people, WB included seem to be doing and that's ignoring the problem. I hope JL doesn't face the same thing.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I think Rotten Tomatoes gets way too much hate honestly their scores are pretty fair.
> 
> The Nolan Batman Films all scored well with 84 for Batman Begins and both Dark Knights getting 87. Superman Returns 76 and Green Lantern got a 27 but GL was a bad movie. Now as for the DCEU
> 
> Wonder Woman got a 92 and it was a great film.
> Man of Steel was pretty divisive because of it's interpretation of Superman and got a 55 which sounds fair.
> BvS got a 27 but that is the theatrical cut which was a mess IMO thanks to the Studio and it deserved it's 27.
> Suicide Squad got a 26 another film the Studio hacked apart in the editing room allowing a trailer house to do edits so again IMO they earned that. 
> 
> ...


I am not hating RT. They are pretty accurate. It is a good meter to gauge how good the movie is. On my part i have enjoyed all the Marvel movies that i have watched. Even Incredible Hulk. 

Its just that the scores for DC movies are a bit too low. A previous quote posted that a critic said this is how it should be. Superhero films should be comedic. So maybe its possible that a few jokes could have improved BvS and Man of Steel scores. Haven't seen SS to make an opinion on that. I maybe wrong in BvS though. I did not see it in theaters. Have seen the Ultimate Cut. It was not a film for 20s. Maybe 40ish. About MoS you are true. Its divisive so the score. 

If my post gave an impression that RT is wrong that was not what i meant. I was saying that perhaps critics are more forgiving to superhero films which are more comedic.

If the scores are a gauge for seeing if its entertaining then they are pretty accurate. I hate Superman Returns for butchering Superman. But the film was more enjoyable then MoS for me.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I am not hating RT. They are pretty accurate. It is a good meter to gauge how good the movie is. On my part i have enjoyed all the Marvel movies that i have watched. Even Incredible Hulk. 
> 
> Its just that the scores for DC movies are a bit too low. A previous quote posted that a critic said this is how it should be. Superhero films should be comedic. So maybe its possible that a few jokes could have improved BvS and Man of Steel scores. Haven't seen SS to make an opinion on that. I maybe wrong in BvS though. I did not see it in theaters. Have seen the Ultimate Cut. It was not a film for 20s. Maybe 40ish. About MoS you are true. Its divisive so the score. 
> 
> If my post gave an impression that RT is wrong that was not what i meant. I was saying that perhaps critics are more forgiving to superhero films which are more comedic.
> 
> If the scores are a gauge for seeing if its entertaining then they are pretty accurate. I hate Superman Returns for butchering Superman. But the film was more enjoyable then MoS for me.


I think the issue is that RT rewards unifying movies and punishes divisive movies by design.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think the issue is that RT rewards unifying movies and punishes divisive movies by design.


Yeah. I think the actual critics are fair but the rigid "Fresh/Rotten" system disproportionally awards MCU fare like Doctor Strange and Ragnarok because while they have many shortcomings, people would be hard pressed to say they are NOT enjoyable/fresh.

OTOH, stuff like MoS and BvS may work for some people and may not for others. But when demanded to say whether these movies are "fresh" or "rotten", someone who has a middling opinion of them (scoring it say, 5-6/10) could just go, "_You know what, that score doesn't scream fresh so I will just categorize the film as rotten_". So the tomato percentage ends up looking much worse than the average rating.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I've decided what I most want out of Justice League. Apart from wanting it to be great or at least good, _believing_ it will be GREAT until further notice, and wanting it to succeed like crazy so we get a lot more DC movies, STAT...
> 
> What I want to see most is the maximum number of cameos. This is a NO SPOILER thread, but I'm curious to know who people would love to see show up. Please do not even joke about rumors. I'm unspoiled on this point and several others will be as well.
> 
> This is a wishful thinking thing. If people respond to say they think it would make a fun poll I'll create a new thread for it. But only if there's interest.
> 
> I want to see:
> 
> Nightwing/Robin - Any Robin or Nightwing would make me wet my pants. Chris O'Donnell/Schumacher does not count. And therefore we've had 5 modern Batman movies and have yet to see even a flashback cameo to the most classic duo of all time: "Batman and Robin." If Nightwing or Robin is in this movie and we get our first real modern live-action take on Batman and Robin or Batman and Nightwing that would be enough to make me love the movie forever. In order of preference: Dick Grayson Robin (flashback), Tim Drake Robin (current), Nightwing, Jason Todd (necessarily flashback), Damian. I'd prefer they save Damian. I want to see a more classic Robin first.
> ...


After the the disasters we've had in the Robin department I have very little interest in seeing Robin but if we must then go big or go home. I want a Robin that's as far removed from anything we've ever seen as far away from the everything the public us expecting. Damian is the only Robin I'm interested in seeing and the only one that can salvage Robin's lame reputation with movie goers. 

I would love to see the whole family with Robin and Red Robin being the ones I'm least excited for. Let Robin be in flashbacks alone like for setting up Nightwing and Red Hood.

----------


## Frontier

> 40 Plus Hi-Res Justice League Production Photos Released
> 
> Attachment 57269
> 
> http://pursuenews.com/40-plus-hi-res...otos-released/


The Queen has arrived  :Cool: .

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah. I think the actual critics are fair but the rigid "Fresh/Rotten" system disproportionally awards MCU fare like Doctor Strange and Ragnarok because while they have many shortcomings, people would be hard pressed to say they are NOT enjoyable/fresh.
> 
> OTOH, stuff like MoS and BvS may work for some people and may not for others. But when demanded to say whether these movies are "fresh" or "rotten", someone who has a middling opinion of them (scoring it say, 5-6/10) could just go, "_You know what, that score doesn't scream fresh so I will just categorize the film as rotten_". So the tomato percentage ends up looking much worse than the average rating.


Exactly, Confuzzled, and it really isn't arguable, either.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Yeah. I think the actual critics are fair but the rigid "Fresh/Rotten" system disproportionally awards MCU fare like Doctor Strange and Ragnarok because while they have many shortcomings, people would be hard pressed to say they are NOT enjoyable/fresh.
> 
> OTOH, stuff like MoS and BvS may work for some people and may not for others. But when demanded to say whether these movies are "fresh" or "rotten", someone who has a middling opinion of them (scoring it say, 5-6/10) could just go, "_You know what, that score doesn't scream fresh so I will just categorize the film as rotten_". So the tomato percentage ends up looking much worse than the average rating.


This seems alright. I agree with you.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't think anyone has the opinion that BvS is forgettable. Most people just think it's not very good. And others do think it's good of course.
> 
> I think BvS is continuously talked about for various reasons. The biggest reason I feel is a lot of hype that turned into disappointment (for some people, not all). Didn't we all know about BvS for almost three years until it's release? The movie was hyped and marketed by both people at WB/DC and fans as this soon-to-be modern pop culture phenomenon, and it didn't really deliver on that. It's one thing to say you liked the movie, but I think pretty much everyone can admit that BvS did not stick with people (including the general audience) because it was the great DC trinity on screen together for the first time. I don't think the first Avengers film is so revolutionary in it's story. It's pretty generic in plot and good enough in my opinion. But what stuck with people was the fact that these heroes they started to get to know for four years finally came together. Marvel Studios was able to pull that off with characters the general audience wasn't too knowledgeable about as they were about Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Can you imagine what it would have been like for the MCU is Avengers had failed? I should also add that comparing BvS to F4ntastic doesn't make such sense, because nobody wanted another Fantastic Four movie under FOX, and many saw it as a sly attempt to keep the film rights and as a cash grab.
> 
> Secondly (and I'm not saying this about anyone here) a lot of DC/DCEU/Zack Synder fanatics took it upon themselves to continuously take shots at the MCU and it's fans. This even extended to Zack Synder, Ben Affleck and Deborah Snyder as well (though I think hers was more like shade to Marvel Studios than an actual dis). The fanatics themselves kept saying on many boards that "the DCEU will show [Marvel fans] how it's done", "create a better cinematic universe", that the general audience is tired of "Marvel's kiddie movies", "people will take the DCEU seriously" and all of that. Zack Snyder himself called Ant-Man "flavor of the week" (something I do kinda agree with), Ben Affleck also said that BvS and other DCEU films "are more grandiose and can't be as funny or as glib as Marvel movies" and Deborah Snyder said that the DCEU films are more "director driven", if I am not mistaken, around the time Ant-Man (which infamously had directorial issues) had come out, or she just said it anyway and it was interpreted as a dig to Marvel Studios who has had issues with directors before. Whether or not one agrees with these statements is irrelevant because they said these things either way. Because of this, what happened to BvS (and the DCEU in general in 2016) was seen as karma for all those comments. It's a petty war between the fanboys of both sides of course, but Marvel 'won' at the end of it. Civil War does not get brought up repeatedly the way BvS did because it was another critical and commercial success for Marvel, while BvS, though an undeniable box office hit, seemingly performed below some expectations (the whole "it should have crossed a billion dollars" thing) and its performance was actually affected by the negative critical reception/word of mouth if I am not mistaken. Even Iron Man 2, which many of us in the fandom believe is bad, was not panned by critics. Not to talk of the persistence from the "BvS is too smart for you" crowd.
> 
> I personally don't like the film at all, but one can't deny that there's obvious reasons why BvS is still brought up unlike other bad movies. Whether it's just because it dared to be different I think isn't enough to say why it is. I think it's because it was hyped so much and disappointed a lot.


What I meant by my comment was that many posters on CBR have used it as a way to slam the film. I’ve lost count of all the times I’ve heard someone say “the film was utterly forgettable.” I usually see this from posters who don’t really have a reason as to why the film is “bad”, so they just say “forgettable”. That’s why I ended my post with a tongue lol 

Most of the people in this thread don’t do this, so I should have been more clear. It’s mostly from other threads, and the people here usually give good reasoning for not liking it, even if I disagree with it. Buried Allen said it was certainly not forgettable, so I was trying to be cheeky...as Mr. J says, though, “if you have to explain a joke, it’s no joke!” lol

----------


## manofsteel1979

I don't think the issue of is RT itself. It's the tendency of the vitriolic haters of the DCEU and the hardcore Marvel can do no wrong fanboys to shove the RT scores in faces of those that disagree with them to prove their own subjective opinion as fact and to attempt to imply that those that don't hate Zack Snyder with the same white hot hatred they do are wrong and it's blasphemous to dare like these movies or speak positively about them.

I do however happen to think there is a bias of sorts among the critical community, but I don't think it stems from any malice of Snyder or DC per say ,nor do I buy the " Disney buys off critics" conspiracy theories. I just think many critics have a preconceived notion of what comic book and Superhero genre films should be like and anything that falls outside that safe area or doesn't hit certain expectations, then they tend to start picking movies apart over things they probably wouldn't normally bother with. I think with MOS, many people expected a certain kind of movie and a certain take on the title character, and when they didn't get that, suddenly the admittingly somewhat problematic last act and the depicted destruction got zeroed in on, even though the destruction level in Avengers was arguably as bad if not worse. As far as BvS...Again certain preconceived notions and expectations weren't met, and combined with the choppy editing, damned it. 

Wonder Woman on the other hand didn't really have the albatross of expectations and preconceptions and thus people were willing to overlook it's weaknesses, which admittingly were few.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Yeah. I think the actual critics are fair but the rigid "Fresh/Rotten" system disproportionally awards MCU fare like Doctor Strange and Ragnarok because while they have many shortcomings, people would be hard pressed to say they are NOT enjoyable/fresh.
> 
> OTOH, stuff like MoS and BvS may work for some people and may not for others. But when demanded to say whether these movies are "fresh" or "rotten", someone who has a middling opinion of them (scoring it say, 5-6/10) could just go, "_You know what, that score doesn't scream fresh so I will just categorize the film as rotten_". So the tomato percentage ends up looking much worse than the average rating.


RT is heavily flawed. As a site that collects critical reviews it's a great one stop station but this tomato thing is just silly. The average score of the film is what should matter (instead it's small print under the massive tomato rating), and thus they should let the reader decide if the review is negative or not instead of forcing the reviewer to pick "fresh" or "rotten" in other words "negative or positive". 

I don't care about RT at all but the problem is many people still do though so it gets brought up constantly when talking about films.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> RT is heavily flawed. As a site that collects critical reviews it's a great one stop station but this tomato thing is just silly. The average score of the film is what should matter (instead it's small print under the massive tomato rating), and thus they should let the reader decide if the review is negative or not instead of forcing the reviewer to pick "fresh" or "rotten" in other words "negative or positive".


Absolutely. If that had been the case with BvS, it's score wouldn't be close to what it is now. But because the system is flawed, we keep getting hit on the head about it as if it were _Manos: The Hands of Fate_. It doesn't mean a revised system would turn it into _Citizen Kane_, of course, but it would have more of a mixed bad rating than a terrible one.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I do however happen to think there is a bias of sorts among the critical community, but I don't think it stems from any malice of Snyder or DC per say ,nor do I buy the " Disney buys off critics" conspiracy theories. I just think many critics have a preconceived notion of what comic book and Superhero genre films should be like and anything that falls outside that safe area or doesn't hit certain expectations, then they tend to start picking movies apart over things they probably wouldn't normally bother with. I think with MOS, many people expected a certain kind of movie and a certain take on the title character, and when they didn't get that, suddenly the admittingly somewhat problematic last act and the depicted destruction got zeroed in on, even though the destruction level in Avengers was arguably as bad if not worse. As far as BvS...Again certain preconceived notions and expectations weren't met, and combined with the choppy editing, damned it.


When I read most of the critical reviews against those movies, I keep thinking of David Byrne singing in my head "This is not my Superman! This is not my CBM! These are not my beautiful childhood memories!"  :Smile:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't think the issue of is RT itself. It's the tendency of the vitriolic haters of the DCEU and the hardcore Marvel can do no wrong fanboys to shove the RT scores in faces of those that disagree with them to prove their own subjective opinion as fact and to attempt to imply that those that don't hate Zack Snyder with the same white hot hatred they do are wrong and it's blasphemous to dare like these movies or speak positively about them.
> 
> I do however happen to think there is a bias of sorts among the critical community, but I don't think it stems from any malice of Snyder or DC per say ,nor do I buy the " Disney buys off critics" conspiracy theories. I just think many critics have a preconceived notion of what comic book and Superhero genre films should be like and anything that falls outside that safe area or doesn't hit certain expectations, then they tend to start picking movies apart over things they probably wouldn't normally bother with. I think with MOS, many people expected a certain kind of movie and a certain take on the title character, and when they didn't get that, suddenly the admittingly somewhat problematic last act and the depicted destruction got zeroed in on, even though the destruction level in Avengers was arguably as bad if not worse. As far as BvS...Again certain preconceived notions and expectations weren't met, and combined with the choppy editing, damned it. 
> 
> Wonder Woman on the other hand didn't really have the albatross of expectations and preconceptions and thus people were willing to overlook it's weaknesses, which admittingly were few.


Exactly. Totally agree. Picking out some of the MoS and BvS reviews show that for a lot of critics, either the character choice contradicts a longstanding popular conception, or the tone of the film doesn't match the writer's preference for the genre. 

MOS:

*
There's very little humor or joy in this Superman story.

Cavill broods handsomely as Superman, but this reboot skimps on fun and romance.

This Superman has the rare ability of making us look back fondly on 2006's nostalgic Superman Returns-a film that elicited a nearly universal "meh."

What's missing in Snyder's Superman is a dash of the hokey goodness that Christopher Reeve contributed to the role and the comic cold cheesiness that Gene Hackman and Terrence Stamp brought as Luthor and Zod.

No fun costume change in a phone booth, no wowing humans with his powers and no repartee with reporter Lois Lane.

Super-duper-overStatement. A cataclysm-caravan of speeches, doomed and desolate landscapes, proclamations of glorious destiny or rebirth, and sprawling, stone-faced seriousness. Can't save itself from self-suffocating grandiosity.

Good old fashioned fun is treated as something passé in Zack Snyder's Superman reboot, which is long, laborious and repetitive.

You'll believe a man can frown. A lot.

With Zack 'Watchman' Snyder and Christopher 'Dark Knight' Nolan behind the film, it's no surprise the mood should be dark and serious. If you're hankering after the playful innocence of Christopher Reeve's Superman, you'll definitely be disappointed.

The joyless pic never won my heart.

The attempt to do something different and a bit darker is admirable but this Superman doesn't fly, it just assaults the senses. Where's the fun?

Man of Steel (has) a cold heart that no amount of spectacle can compensate for.

The original superhero is given the sense of spectacle he deserves - but this is a cold, emotionless film that never makes us care for Superman the way he's supposed to care about us.

To quote the Joker in "The Dark Knight," "Why so serious?" There's no joy in this story.

Man of Steel contains little fun apart from the visceral thrill of seeing objects smashed in one of its endless action sequences.

For now, audiences can only speculate as to the hidden depths of Cavill, who in Zack Snyder's busy, bombastic creation myth is reduced to little more than a joyless cipher or dazzling physical specimen.

"Man of Steel" doesn't do quite as much damage to the 75-year-old hero, but next time out I hope his lighter spirits are allowed to soar.

Every opportunity for humor, compassion or plausible responses to otherworldly phenomena is buried beneath product placements and CGI special effects.

This is a film we are to take seriously, because nothing says serious more than watching men in capes hitting each other with cars.

At the end of the day Man of Steel is yet another tedious origin story that boils down to a Real Estate scheme and giant Spider ships. Superman is not Batman, he is not supposed to be dark, gritty, and joyless. Where is the hope?

There's no reason why a superhero film can't dabble in darkness, but in the process Snyder forgets to make his movie fun.

[It] is thoughtfully crafted and occasionally breathtaking; what it isn't, unfortunately, is much fun.

You'll believe a man can mope.

Zack Snyder, Christopher Nolan and David S. Goyer have managed to become Superman's very own Kryptonite, stripping the iconic character of his greatest assets: wit, charm, and most importantly, hope.

Utterly devoid of wit or charm.*

BvS:

*
Remember when comic book movies were fun? Well, you'll have to use your memory because there's not much fun to be found in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.

The superhero world needed better storytelling, a comic touch and more than a few rays of sunshine. The story is crippled by special effects from start to finish.

All this gloom and doom is just the pits.

As a superhero flick, it's shockingly joyless and overlong, with the two iconic crimefighters presented as angry, cranky, easily manipulated men in tights.

Like a movie from the world of Watchmen: cold, cruel, borderline incoherent in its testosterone-fueled rage, misogynist, paternalistic... fascist, even.

If Christopher Reeve were alive he'd be suing for character libel.

When was it decided superhero movies shouldn't be any fun?

There's no joy here, no wonder or spectacle, just a relentlessly grim and intense grind that can't stop reminding you how grim and intense it is.

While it's one thing to take superheroes seriously, it's another to drain all the fun out of them.

Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice was supposed to settle a fanboy debate older than Adam West. Instead it raises another: Is being a superhero really this much of a drag?

Affleck and Gadot are impressive in their debuts, but there really are no winners in Batman v Superman. That includes moviegoers looking for anything resembling a good time.

For the life of me, after two and a half hours, I couldn't tell you why Batman and Superman were fighting. (Quit your job you utter dumbass)

Blunt, humorless, and baffling, it collides the brutish directorial stamp of its director (he of 300 and Watchmen fame) with the most shameless instincts of our latter-day superhero franchise bubble.

In the words of The Joker in a far better Batman movie: "Why so serious?"

Snyder and company wouldn't understand the possible joy within the genre if it jumped up and bit them in the ambitions

That fight comes late in the game, and it's so grim, humorless, and vicious, it stops being thrilling early on. It isn't in the service of any of the themes the film has struggled to express, it's just a meat-headed, brutal throwdown. (Right, fights are supposed to be humorFUL.)

Rather than escapism and sensory exhilaration, viewers get down in the mire with protagonists who grimace, scowl and wince their way through heroics with the joyless determination of shift workers making the doughnuts.

A popcorn film - and this is a popcorn film - should never feel like Sunday night homework.

Overlong, underdeveloped and almost entirely humorless, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice may please die-hard fans by pitting two DC icons against each other. Everyone else may want to wait for the next Marvel movie.

The film may be imposing, but it's not fun.*

Seeing the words "joy", "wit", "charm", "humor", and "fun" written so many times just makes me want to take a bat to Avengers. And I liked it.

----------


## Pinsir

The problem with RT, particularly with the MCU films, is that they seemed to currently be graded as video games are. Look at some of these RT scores for the first batch of Marvel films; Hulk 67%, Thor 77%, Cap 1 80%, Iron Man 94%, Iron Man 2 73%, Avengers 92%. There is a range between scores, though none of them are failing grades by any means. I think the last film of theirs to receive a a score in the 70's is was Ultron (at 75%) and everything since then is in the 80s or higher, a large swath of them in the 90's. 

I've seen the Metacritic scores for all the MCU films used this year and they are all in the low 70's (and Wonder Woman is higher than all of them). MCU films are consistently graded as 7/10 films and yet their RT scores are now incredibly high, entailing critics like them more now than they did when the MCU debuted. I think a lot of this may have to do with the rise of 'nerd' critics, a vocation that emerged directly from the success of the 2008 comic book movie boom which had not matured by the time the phase 1 films were critiqued.

Now there is never really any point in arguing against an RT score, that number represents how many critics liked and disliked a film. However there is reason to question RTs dominance in the discussion of films. Its not simply a metric anymore, but the defining scale to which films are critiqued. Individual movie reviews, Metacritic, awards and nominations are discarded. For the Marvel vs DC debate the reason why RT is emphasized is obvious, MCU films don't perform all too well under these other metrics (We saw this when Marvel fans tried to delegitimize costume and make up as an art form following Suicide Squads win) and perform extremely well under RT.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I had not seen the review before that complains about the BvS fight being too vicious, and without humor lol wooooow. Ok. 

In contrast, I read a review of Thor: Ragnorok from the San Francisco Chronicle this morning, where he describes the first few minutes: 




> The movie begins with an absurd situation, in which Thor is the chained captive of a creature that seems to be made of fire. The fire man is enormous and has a body that’s like a thin layer over an inferno, a look that is intentionally borderline ridiculous. (Much of this movie resides in that discrete zone of intentional borderline ridiculousness.) After making some wisecracks, Thor (Chris Hemsworth) finds a free hand to reach for his hammer, and what follows is an action sequence that’s rousing, tongue-in-cheek and resolved in a slapstick sight gag.
> 
> So the tone is set within five minutes: This is going to be fun.


And this guy isn’t alone. I’ve seen ths sentiment all over the place, and I think it backs up the idea that superhero films are pigeonholed into 1 specific genre - Action Comedy - and when a film is not that, then I do think it automatically has an upward climb. For the life of me, I will never understand why everything must always be the SAME. Man of Steel is ripped for “no humor, thus no fun” while Thor gets  “...this movie...intentional borderline ridiculousness...this is going to be fun.” 

I guess my point is, every movie deserves to be reviewed based on what it IS, not what the reviewer wished it were. So many reviews of Man of Steel complained that “this isn’t Reeve’s Superman!” Well, no shit. But instead of hating on not-Reeve’s, what did you think of what the film actually is? The MCU sets out to make Action Comedies. That’s been their bread & butter since Iron Man, with an exception to Winter Soldier & maybe Incredible Hulk. And that WORKS, obviously. I’ve enjoyed every MCU film except 1 (I actually kinda hated Doctor Strange), but I own every film. They set out to make action comedies, and they are damn good at it. DC, with MoS & BvS, set out to make Action Dramas. Totally different genre from the MCU. Why is that so bad? People don’t have to like the films, but at least judge them as action dramas, instead of not-action-comedy. 

I dunno, I’m ranting. But I absolutely agree there is a critical bias against these movies. Not bias towards Marvel, but towards a genre that they want, rather than what they get. And they shouldn’t be surprised, DC has been doing dramas with Superheroes since 2005’s Batman Begins, with Green Lantern & Wonder Woman being the only exceptions (maaaaybe Suicide Squad, I suppose that’s an Action Comedy). 

Anyway, here’s the Thor review I quoted from. Potentially big spoilers in it though, depending on your knowledge of Thor comics: http://m.sfgate.com/movies/article/T...n-12325139.php

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The problem with RT, particularly with the MCU films, is that they seemed to currently be graded as video games are. Look at some of these RT scores for the first batch of Marvel films; Hulk 67%, Thor 77%, Cap 1 80%, Iron Man 94%, Iron Man 2 73%, Avengers 92%. There is a range between scores, though none of them are failing grades by any means. I think the last film of theirs to receive a a score in the 70's is was Ultron (at 75%) and everything since then is in the 80s or higher, a large swath of them in the 90's. 
> 
> I've seen the Metacritic scores for all the MCU films used this year and they are all in the low 70's (and Wonder Woman is higher than all of them). MCU films are consistently graded as 7/10 films and yet their RT scores are now incredibly high, entailing critics like them more now than they did when the MCU debuted. I think a lot of this may have to do with the rise of 'nerd' critics, a vocation that emerged directly from the success of the 2008 comic book movie boom which had not matured by the time the phase 1 films were critiqued.
> 
> Now there is never really any point in arguing against an RT score, that number represents how many critics liked and disliked a film. However there is reason to question RTs dominance in the discussion of films. Its not simply a metric anymore, but the defining scale to which films are critiqued. Individual movie reviews, Metacritic, awards and nominations are discarded. For the Marvel vs DC debate the reason why RT is emphasized is obvious, MCU films don't perform all too well under these other metrics (We saw this when Marvel fans tried to delegitimize costume and make up as an art form following Suicide Squads win) and perform extremely well under RT.


My issue with RT is when you compare film scores vs other films, things don’t add up. One review for BvS was a 2.5/5 and was certified rotten, or whatever. Another movie around that time (Civil War maybe?) also had a 2.5/5, but was certified fresh. And in an age where nobdy reads anymore, that RT fresh/rotten is all they look at. In my book, 2.5/5 is like a C grade. Not great, not crap. Just average. But for some films on RT, 2.5 means “go see it” while for others 2.5 means “stay home”. I don’t think that’s a fair metric.

----------


## mace11

> I've seen the Metacritic scores for all the MCU films used this year and they are all in the low 70's (and Wonder Woman is higher than all of them). MCU films are consistently graded as 7/10 films and yet their RT scores are now incredibly high, entailing critics like them more now than they did when the MCU debuted.


Some of those mcu films average ratings are in mid 7's and higher.
Avengers is 8.0/10

----------


## Pinsir

> My issue with RT is when you compare film scores vs other films, things don’t add up. One review for BvS was a 2.5/5 and was certified rotten, or whatever. Another movie around that time (Civil War maybe?) also had a 2.5/5, but was certified fresh. And in an age where nobdy reads anymore, that RT fresh/rotten is all they look at. In my book, 2.5/5 is like a C grade. Not great, not crap. Just average. But for some films on RT, 2.5 means “go see it” while for others 2.5 means “stay home”. I don’t think that’s a fair metric.


It is the individual reviewers who choose if they like or dislike a film though, which makes sense as you could give a 1/10 to a film and still like it (Sharknado, for instance).

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I don't know about this. I mean Logan was lauded by critics, and got Oscar buzz without a public campaign like Wonder Woman is doing. That movie is downright depressing for me (even though I did like it). I think the reason the tone of the DCEU movies like BvS and MoS were brought up because the critics didn't find any other redeeming qualities in those films. That's how I see it anwa. And even The Winter Soldier is praised as Marvel's best film because it's probably the most serious

----------


## mace11

> I had not seen the review before that complains about the BvS fight being too vicious, and without humor lol wooooow. Ok. 
> 
> In contrast, I read a review of Thor: Ragnorok from the San Francisco Chronicle this morning, where he describes the first few minutes: 
> 
> 
> 
> And this guy isn’t alone. I’ve seen ths sentiment all over the place, and I think it backs up the idea that superhero films are pigeonholed into 1 specific genre - Action Comedy - and when a film is not that, then I do think it automatically has an upward climb. For the life of me, I will never understand why everything must always be the SAME. Man of Steel is ripped for “no humor, thus no fun” while Thor gets  “...this movie...intentional borderline ridiculousness...this is going to be fun.” 
> 
> I guess my point is, every movie deserves to be reviewed based on what it IS, not what the reviewer wished it were. So many reviews of Man of Steel complained that “this isn’t Reeve’s Superman!” Well, no shit. But instead of hating on not-Reeve’s, what did you think of what the film actually is? The MCU sets out to make Action Comedies. That’s been their bread & butter since Iron Man, with an exception to Winter Soldier & maybe Incredible Hulk. And that WORKS, obviously. I’ve enjoyed every MCU film except 1 (I actually kinda hated Doctor Strange), but I own every film. They set out to make action comedies, and they are damn good at it. DC, with MoS & BvS, set out to make Action Dramas. Totally different genre from the MCU. Why is that so bad? People don’t have to like the films, but at least judge them as action dramas, instead of not-action-comedy. 
> ...


Most mcu films are not action comedies however.If you that then you have to day all of donner superman films are and superman 3 and 4 and all of batman films etc.. in fact most dc films i think.
Here is list of the most serious mcu films.
Incredible hulk.
Captain america first avenger
Captain america 2
Civil war

Here is list of next most serious one with some more humor that's closer to superman 1 and 2 but not still not action comedies from my view point.
Iron man
Iron man 2
Avengers
Avengers 2
Doctor strange

Below are closer to more true action comedies.
There is alot more humor these films then one above but still not comedy films only.
Sci fi, fantasy, action and comedy.
GOTG
GOTG 2
Ant-man
Thor 3 from what i hear/read
Spiderman homecoming/I have not spiderman homecoming yet

Here is a list that's between list 2 and 3.
Iromman 3
Thor 2

----------


## Pinsir

> Some of those mcu films average ratings are in mid 7's and higher.
> Avengers is 8.0/10


I was referring to the metacritic score of MCU films and even then only the ones that came out this year. On Metacritic Avengers has a score of 69, Thor Ragnarok a 73 and Wonder Woman at 76. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that Metacritic is better than RT, its just another metric, though for whatever reason review scores are much milder there.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> My issue with RT is when you compare film scores vs other films, things don’t add up. One review for BvS was a 2.5/5 and was certified rotten, or whatever. Another movie around that time (Civil War maybe?) also had a 2.5/5, but was certified fresh. And in an age where nobdy reads anymore, that RT fresh/rotten is all they look at. In my book, 2.5/5 is like a C grade. Not great, not crap. Just average. But for some films on RT, 2.5 means “go see it” while for others 2.5 means “stay home”. I don’t think that’s a fair metric.


At worst, IMO, there should be a middle grade between "fresh" and "rotten." Stale?  :Smile:

----------


## mace11

> I was referring to the metacritic score of MCU films and even then only the ones that came out this year. On Metacritic Avengers has a score of 69, Thor Ragnarok a 73 and Wonder Woman at 76. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that Metacritic is better than RT, its just another metric, though for whatever reason review scores are much milder there.


Metacritic scores for mcu films in mid 70's and above not this year.

Iron Man -79 
Guardians of the Galaxy	-76 
Captain America: Civil War-75 



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Marvel_Comics

----------


## mace11

Here some views about the tone of the mcu vs dceu.


More Than Just The Same: MCU Head Kevin Feige Says All Marvel Movies Are 'Relatively Different'



> As popular as it is, one of the biggest and most enduring criticisms of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) is how similar many of its entries are to each other. Minus a few exceptions, cynical viewers think that Marvel movies are interchangeable, with the only differences being the hero's name and which Infinity Stone the villain was holding. In response, Marvel Entertainment head honcho Kevin Feige defended the MCU, saying that the movies are in fact, different from one another. 
> 
> Feige Talks About Marvelous Differences
> 
> While talking to Uproxx about the upcoming #Marvel movies that include Thor: Ragnarok and Black Panther, Feige acknowledged that the Marvel movies do tend to feel similar to one another. For the producer, there's a perfectly logical reason for this, and it's unavoidable given the tightly-knit group of writers responsible for bringing popular Marvel comics to the big screen. 
> 
> "I mean, I think it's just the way we make the movies. I think all the movies are relatively different. I think there's a narrative that people like to write about because they're all produced by the same team and they all inhabit the same fictional cinematic universe. That we look for common similarities."
> 
> While not downplaying the criticisms and similarities, Feige doubled-down on his belief that the Marvel movies are distinct movies that just so happen to be a part of a greater cinematic universe. To prove his point, the producer cited the most recent Marvel movies that have noticeably been aiming to do something outside of the usual Marvel formula.
> ...


https://moviepilot.com/p/kevin-feige...ticism/4414149

----------


## mace11

Here is some online/youtube views i saved recently so you could see other points of views.



> by Brandon Christopher1 
> DC is Ben and Jerry's some awesome some awful but always interesting. I like both but that's how I see it. I'm always more excited for DC because it's always something new or unexpected. Marvel's worst movie is Ant-Man because it's extra vanilla... It's not bad but it's so predictable it's boring.
> 
> by Johnny Blaze1 
> I don't understand this notion considering Suicide Squad was a ripoff of more exciting and unexpected works such as Avengers and Guardians of The Galaxy. Wonder Woman is also your basic superhero story while it's tonally and narratively similar to Captain America: First Avenger. And BvS and Civil War were coincidentally similar.Along with Avengers and GOTG, Ironman started off as an unexpected surprise and so was Winter Soldier as it completely deterred from the familiarity of it's predecessor. Watch Black Panther also surprise. On top of being good, I feel like the MCU is occasionally unpredictable while I know what I'm in for with DC at the moment considering that most of the films have been directed by the same person and the others are modeled after his creative vision.﻿
> 
> by Brandon Christopher1 
> Johnny Blaze 
> You keep saying the word surprise but almost every Marvel movie is a carbon copy of Iron Man part 1.
> ...





> Quote Originally Posted by NotNickFury  View Post  
> The difference is that Marvel took its time with its cinematic universe and built a world, while Dawn of Justice tries to do too much in the span of one film.
> Not to mention that the MCU does do dark films. The likes of The Incredible Hulk, and even later films like Winter Soldier and Iron Man 3 deal with some pretty serious themes. Cinematography-wise, sure, it's not like someone turned out the lights, but those films are examples of doing a dark, serious superhero film and still being able to inject humor in situations when necessary.
> Are people being preemptively harder on DC? Possibly, but not like DC hasn't somewhat brought it on themselves with this haphazard approach, lack of a real critical hit, and rushing to play catch-up instead of taking its time. I doubt anyone would have an issue with DC taking a slower approach if the films as a whole were well-received, which is why there's now so much pressure on Wonder Woman.
> http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=#post34566349



Dark And Gritty Vs Light And Fun - What Makes A Better Comic-Book Movie - The John Campea Podcast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JrWzS3Frdc

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Exactly. Totally agree. Picking out some of the MoS and BvS reviews show that for a lot of critics, either the character choice contradicts a longstanding popular conception, or the tone of the film doesn't match the writer's preference for the genre. 
> 
> MOS:
> 
> *
> There's very little humor or joy in this Superman story.
> 
> Cavill broods handsomely as Superman, but this reboot skimps on fun and romance.
> 
> ...


All of those reviews are basically saying " why can't it be like Christopher Reeve? It needs to be more like the Donner films! Not muh Superman!" 

Which is why I'll continue to defend MOS in spite of it's flaws.

----------


## mace11

Here is a video from john campea.
I agree with him here about this subject  below.
Of course  i agree with him on some stuff  and there is stuff i don't agree with him.

Dark And Gritty Vs Light And Fun - What Makes A Better Comic-Book Movie - The John Campea Podcast


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JrWzS3Frdc


 Why Marvel’s Success Story is More Than Just a ‘Formula’



http://screenrant.com/marvel-movie-formula-brand/

All mcu movies are rated higher on average then dceu movies from critics to audiences,like it or not.
All are mcu movies are RATED higher then dceu movies on the Rt Tomatometer and Audiences liked scores.
None are rotten on RT.
Keep in that mind people.

Note-most of the mcu movies if i could recall do not have world  ending events by the ways.

The Marvel Formula is why Critics hate DC?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUFPNdbRHQ

----------


## Clark_Kent

Uh oh, watch out. We have Campea, Mark Hughes, and a bunch of youtube commenters telling me I’m wrong. It’s a good thing all of those are trusted, honest, non-biased individuals  :Smile:  

Well, Hughes is ok. He’s hit & miss. But Campea? lol

Also, why do you care so much if they’re labeled action comedy or not? I never said it was a dig on the films, so I’m not sure why you’re digging up nobody youtube comments? And feel free to address what I said: “when every dramatic moment is punctuated with a sight gag, one liner, or dance off, then it’s an action comedy.”

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Watching MoS again. And damn Shannon makes a compelling Zod!! 

Also......2 weeks until JL baby!!  :Cool:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Watching MoS again. And damn Shannon makes a compelling Zod!! 
> 
> Also......2 weeks until JL baby!!


I love his Zod. He’s not a mustache-twirling bad guy, and he has reasons for doing what he does. And when Superman stops him, Zod is utterly destroyed because he no longer has a purpose. I don’t think this version of Zod gets nearly enough credit.

----------


## Pinsir

> Metacritic scores for mcu films in mid 70's and above not this year.
> 
> Iron Man -79 
> Guardians of the Galaxy	-76 
> Captain America: Civil War-75


I didn't say there weren't though...




> I don't know about this. I mean Logan was lauded by critics, and got Oscar buzz without a public campaign like Wonder Woman is doing. That movie is downright depressing for me (even though I did like it). I think the reason the tone of the DCEU movies like BvS and MoS were brought up because the critics didn't find any other redeeming qualities in those films. That's how I see it anyway.


A lot of of critics do actually have problems dissecting films. One of the new media reviews I have respect for is Chris Stuckmann and in one of his videos he says that a lot of modern reviewers simply lack the appreciation or even have the basic knowledge of the technical aspect of film making, how light, space, colour, etc are utilized in scene composition. Again, this is a problem I think caused by shifting demographics of film reviewers, where published critics probably went to college and were instructed in film theory, where as nowadays its all about 'nerd' culture. This entails though, that since most reviewers lack the ability to discuss how scenes are created (or when they do, it does tend to be bare bones), they only focus on narrative and character.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I love his Zod. Hes not a mustache-twirling bad guy, and he has reasons for doing what he does. And when Superman stops him, Zod is utterly destroyed because he no longer has a purpose. I dont think this version of Zod gets nearly enough credit.


It definitely doesn't, the moment when he gets zoned by the higher ups on Krypton I could feel the intensity and the "I will find him". So good. 

People say the DCEU has no memorable villains, there is one right there!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It definitely doesn't, the moment when he gets zoned by the higher ups on Krypton I could feel the intensity and the "I will find him". So good. 
> 
> People say the DCEU has no memorable villains, there is one right there!


100% agreed! 

My favorite moment is when Clark wakes up on the ship, and says “you killed him.” And with a quiet reflection on his face, he says “I did. And not a day goes by that I’m not haunted by it.” The way Shannon delivers the line, you believe it. You believe in that moment that Zod is regretful, but he acted in what he thought was the best interest of Krypton. It’s very understated, but effective. 

His performance actually made me a fan of the character.

----------


## mace11

I explain awhile back in this thread and some others but it was ignored clearly. I think i did a really good job at it but some others have too.

Example.
Where is all these jokes in avengers first film every 2 minutes like some like to say here?
Were there non stop jokes in the last battle scene?no.
Where are all jokes every 2 or 5 minutes in captain america civil war,first avenger,incredible hulk,doctor strange,ironman and captain america 2 for Example?none.

Look i really like the dceu but some of the dceu fans have to stop over exaggerating and telling lies about the mcu and dceu.
I watch both.
I think the dceu is not trash and in fact i really like wonder woman and mos.
I like bvs and i have not seen SS yet.
Only some of it and plan to watch the rest later and i really look forward to the  rest of dceu,but of course i look more forward more to the mcu films and shows because i am more of a marvel fan and i think the mcu has done a better better telling thier stories as awhole and they have stronger character  development  and on average better action and special effects.

Like i said before dc films as whole are light hearted,while marvel films(including non mcu ones)are really darker and more serious on average.
Anyway dceu is getting more lighted hearted on average anyway and marvel mcu will still have some more serious and darker films in future.

Note- there was more destruction in mos then avengers 1 by the way.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Villians in mcu
> 
> 
>   MCU: The Marvel Cinematic Universe Official Discussion - Part 4 
> http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=505133&page=5
> 
> 
> Mcu movie villain are decent to really good,but remember the main focus are heroes,not villains. 
> The mcu shows have better developed villains on average then the mcu movies by the way.Hive,quake's mom and ward on aos were developed villains for example,then there is kingpin,kilgrave,villains from the marvel's peggy carter show etc.. 
> I think live action dc shows villains are more developed then dc movie villains too,so it's not only just a live action marvel thing.


I don't think importing random comments and debates aren't helping the thread discussion much. However on this point I will say I don't think the MCU villains have been good. Loki was decent. Everyone else was totally forgettable. Lex wasn't well received by all but he acted and schemed as we would expect Lex to with the same philosophical outlook.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I explain awhile back in this thread and some others but it was ignored clearly. I think i did a really good job at it but some others have too.
> 
> Example.
> Where is all these jokes in avengers first film every 2 minutes like some like to say here?
> Were there non stop jokes in the last battle scene?no.
> Where are all jokes every 2 or 5 minutes in captain america civil war,first avenger,incredible hulk,doctor strange,ironman and captain america 2 for Example?none.
> .


The first Avengers film was full of jokes during the final battle. Moments like "Puny God", upon reflection, were pretty ridiculous.

The climactic battle in Civil War was completely marred by jokes. Instead of a real fight it felt completely trivial. Ant-Man was quipping, Hawkeye was quipping, Spider-Man was quipping, it's like everyone's voice collapsed into RDJ's wit. 

Iron Man reinvented Stark as a snark machine.

Incredible Hulk wasn't full of jokes but it wasn't great. I find the original much better.

First Avenger wasn't full of jokes, neither was Winter Soldier. But Age of Ultron sure was. The main villain is defeated and he goes "Oh, come on!" Sucks all the gravity out of it.

People like it, that's fine, that's not for me. It doesn't ruin the movies for me but it takes me out of the seriousness the situation supposedly calls for. And I don't appear to be alone. (Notice in the search bar I made no mention of marvel, the mcu, or even comic book movies.)

----------


## mace11

> The first Avengers film was full of jokes during the final battle. Moments like "Puny God", upon reflection, were pretty ridiculous.
> 
> I disagree with this
> So ironman fighting bucky and cap in the last major battle scene was full of jokes?nope it was not.
> The airport battee scene had some jokey superheroes in it like ant-man and spiderman to to some extent ironman.They were not trying to kill each other and it god more serois at the end.it was real fight
> Civil war tone was closer to cap 2 then avengers.
> 
> Iron Man reinvented Stark as a snark machine.
> 
> ...


I disgree with this view as well.




> The first Avengers film was full of jokes during the final battle. Moments like "Puny God", upon reflection, were pretty ridiculous.


No it was not.
This is an example on what i am talking about.The hulk puny god thing was funny and worked really well but hey that's your problem.




> Incredible Hulk wasn't full of jokes but it wasn't great. I find the original much better.


I thought Incredible hulk was great and better the original one,but i like both but i like Incredible hulk much more.






> The climactic battle in Civil War was completely marred by jokes. Instead of a real fight it felt completely trivial. Ant-Man was quipping, Hawkeye was quipping, Spider-Man was quipping, it's like everyone's voice collapsed into RDJ's wit. 
> People like it, that's fine, that's not for me. It doesn't ruin the movies for me but it takes me out of the seriousness the situation supposedly calls for.



Age of Ultron had more jokes then first avengers film but it did not have full of jokes.By the way what you guys are calling jokes is really humor more then joke humor.
I guess the humor in superman 1, 2 and the dark knight took you out of the films too.
By the way the dark knight had alot of humor in there and folks would say bvs had some out of place humor.If anything bvs should have really taken you out of it not some of the  mcu films with more humor.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The first Avengers film was full of jokes during the final battle. Moments like "Puny God", upon reflection, were pretty ridiculous.
> 
> The climactic battle in Civil War was completely marred by jokes. Instead of a real fight it felt completely trivial. Ant-Man was quipping, Hawkeye was quipping, Spider-Man was quipping, it's like everyone's voice collapsed into RDJ's wit. 
> 
> Iron Man reinvented Stark as a snark machine.
> 
> Incredible Hulk wasn't full of jokes but it wasn't great. I find the original much better.
> 
> First Avenger wasn't full of jokes, neither was Winter Soldier. But Age of Ultron sure was. The main villain is defeated and he goes "Oh, come on!" Sucks all the gravity out of it.
> ...


Couldn’t have said it better myself! (slow clap)

I enjoy the part about how “DCEU fans need to stop exaggerating” though...for the accusation of being ignored, it’s ironic and I  guess he missed the parts where I said there was nothing wrong with the MCU action comedy formula, and how I own every MCU film but one lol

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I disgree with this view as well.
> 
> 
> 
> No it was not.
> This is an example on what i am talking about.The hulk puny god thing was funny and worked really well but hey that's your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So now you’re arguing whether the jokes were funny or not, and you’re defining what is a joke and what is considered humor? 

Yep, I’m out. There’s only so much goalpost moving I can handle lol

----------


## Frontier

> The first Avengers film was full of jokes during the final battle. Moments like "Puny God", upon reflection, were pretty ridiculous.
> 
> The climactic battle in Civil War was completely marred by jokes. Instead of a real fight it felt completely trivial. Ant-Man was quipping, Hawkeye was quipping, Spider-Man was quipping, it's like everyone's voice collapsed into RDJ's wit. 
> 
> Iron Man reinvented Stark as a snark machine.
> 
> Incredible Hulk wasn't full of jokes but it wasn't great. I find the original much better.
> 
> First Avenger wasn't full of jokes, neither was Winter Soldier. But Age of Ultron sure was. The main villain is defeated and he goes "Oh, come on!" Sucks all the gravity out of it.
> ...


I think the MCU does have an over-reliance on humor and jokes that they can sometimes take any and all seriousness and gravity out of the situation, but in the cases of _Avengers_ and _Civil War_ I think they worked for what the creators were going for and the overall tone of the film. But your mileage may vary. 

Notice that the final fight between Cap and Iron Man in _Civil War_ had virtually no jokes or humor in it.  

Plus Marvel heroes are very naturally quippy to begin with, even before Iron Man became the snarky character RDJ turned him into. Stuff like "Puny God" and Hawkeye quipping during a fight are pretty in-character.

And I will always think _Incredible Hulk_ (and the first _Thor_) are the underrated gems of the MCU  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## mace11

> Plus Marvel heroes are very naturally quippy to begin with


Yeah some are,and of course some are not but on average more then dc superheroes.





> So now you’re arguing whether the jokes were funny or not, and you’re defining what is a joke and what is considered humor? 
> 
> Yep, I’m out. There’s only so much goalpost moving I can handle lol





> By the way what you guys are calling jokes is really humor more then joke humor.


Ignore or disregard  that comment.
I was suppose to delete.
I thought i did. I guess i got carried away to TRY win the debate at all cost like some of you guys.


Note -mcu tv shows on average is darker and more serous then dc and dceu movies  and are stronger in stories and character development on average.
The marvel shows are more serious and darker then dc shows.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think the MCU does have an over-reliance on humor and jokes that they can sometimes take any and all seriousness and gravity out of the situation, but in the cases of _Avengers_ and _Civil War_ I think they worked for what the creators were going for and the overall tone of the film. But your mileage may vary. 
> 
> Notice that the final fight between Cap and Iron Man in _Civil War_ had virtually no jokes or humor in it.  
> 
> Plus Marvel heroes are very naturally quippy to begin with, even before Iron Man became the snarky character RDJ turned him into. Stuff like "Puny God" and Hawkeye quipping during a fight are pretty in-character.
> 
> And I will always think _Incredible Hulk_ (and the first _Thor_) are the underrated gems of the MCU .


For me the parking lot battle was totally stakeless and had no tension because of all the jokes. Nobody's in danger, nobody's going to get hurt, because we're still friends right? You got heart kid! Remember that star wars movie with the elephant thingies? Anybody got any orange slices? Then it tries to convince me War Machine is really hurt shortly after and this was a serious fight. Then the last fight, which is indeed jokeless, happens right at the end of the movie for a reason pretty divorced from the central conflict in the film. And is seemingly solved minutes later with a letter. 

I don't think those jokes you mentioned are out of character as much as they are kind of out of place in terms of the tension. A serious moment, a big triumph, an important conflict, turns into a trivial punchline all too often. I feel like I get cheated from the payoff, personally. Dispatching villains with humor cheapens them for me.

----------


## mace11

> For me the parking lot battle was totally stakeless and had no tension because of all the jokes. Nobody's in danger, nobody's going to get hurt, because we're still friends right? You got heart kid! Remember that star wars movie with the elephant thingies? Anybody got any orange slices? Then it tries to convince me War Machine is really hurt shortly after and this was a serious fight. Then the last fight, which is indeed jokeless, happens right at the end of the movie for a reason pretty divorced from the central conflict in the film. And is seemingly solved minutes later with a letter. 
> 
> I don't think those jokes you mentioned are out of character as much as they are kind of out of place in terms of the tension. A serious moment, a big triumph, an important conflict, turns into a trivial punchline all too often. I feel like I get cheated from the payoff, personally. Dispatching villains with humor cheapens them for me.


I disagree with this as well.
What villain in civil war had humor?none that i remember.
The problem at the end with steve and tony were not solved and steve is still on the run and the avengers team is split up.

Did anybody pay attention to this movie other then some folks like me?
Anyway anybody remember the big battle scene in africa and other places.
Where were all these jokes?

Yes there was more humor in civil war then cap 2 but the overall tone was really serious and similar to cap 2.
The tone overall was more serious then half of the dceu films currently.

I bet civil war and doctor strange will be more serious then the justice league and aquaman films and black adam and shazam and flashpoint flash movies and most of the upcoming dceu films.The days of mos and bvs is over so get use to it or give up on the dceu.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

You know I think discussing the MCU in a DCEU thread is really counterproductive but I'll just say that some people really need to understand the difference between an superhero movie with comedy in it, and an action comedy. They're very different things. And really, I don't get this resentment towards comedy anyway. We all like it when superhero movies pull from other genres like Logan, The Dark Knight and The Winter Soldier. But why is it such a bad thing if Marvel decides to pull from the comedy genre? No one would say TDK is a crime drama and not a superhero movie, but Thor: Ragnarok and Guardians of the Galaxy just have to be action comedies and nothing else. It's condescending and hypocritical in my opinion.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> For me the parking lot battle was totally stakeless and had no tension because of all the jokes. Nobody's in danger, nobody's going to get hurt, because we're still friends right? You got heart kid! Remember that star wars movie with the elephant thingies? Anybody got any orange slices? Then it tries to convince me War Machine is really hurt shortly after and this was a serious fight. Then the last fight, which is indeed jokeless, happens right at the end of the movie for a reason pretty divorced from the central conflict in the film. And is seemingly solved minutes later with a letter. 
> 
> I don't think those jokes you mentioned are out of character as much as they are kind of out of place in terms of the tension. A serious moment, a big triumph, an important conflict, turns into a trivial punchline all too often. I feel like I get cheated from the payoff, personally. Dispatching villains with humor cheapens them for me.


Sigh.

See this is the thing I'm talking about. Everyone can give the DCEU a chance to be overanalyzed, but there's this stigma attached to the MCU movies that they aren't that deep or seriously.

The airport battle in Civil War IS NOT MEANT TO BE SERIOUS. Anyone who was paying attention can see that. It's not like they were fighting because they hated each other so much and wanted to kill each other like in the comics. Iron Man's team was trying to bring Cap's team in, and Cap's team was trying to escape and get on the quinjet. The only person it was serious for was Black Panther, who was actively trying to kill Bucky. He's the most serious throughout the entire film perhaps close to Bucky and Cap. Again, the most jokes came out of Spidey and Ant-Man. And yes, War Machine was seriously hurt by an accident. An accident. Nobody was trying to hurt anyone seriously that was not Black Panther. That fight was not meant to be a stake-filled, violent and hateful fight. It's one side trying to bring in their friends and teamates, the other side trying to escape and literally only one person trying to kill someone. Why would you expect anything else.

The final fight was as violent as it should have been. And how was it divorced from the central conflict of the film. Cap got into the situation he was in because he had been trying to protect Bucky from things people thought he did. That's pretty clear throughout the film. And it's also pretty clear that is what Zemo had been trying to do all that time even though he used many plans. And no, nothing. was solved by the end of the film. Because Tony merely smiled? Did he go find Cap and give him back his shield and say he's sorry? That's solving it. For crying out loud.

Like this film is not that hard to follow yet basic things like these are ignored or not noticed and I don't know why.

----------


## Conn Seanery

1) This is a thread about the *DC Extended Universe*.  Any discussion about the MCU should be brief, if at all, and strictly in comparison to the DCU. Dissecting the MCU and its films is for a different thread, not this one.
2) Please try to keep any discussion you bring to the thread *your own.* Quoting walls of text from other people, off-site or otherwise, in multiple posts, is not cool.

Stay on-topic, folks. Thank you.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## Lightning Rider

> 


Pretty cool real. Surreal to see them just kind of walk around dressed like that.

----------


## Robotman

Just bought my Justice League ticket for a 3D showing on Thursday the 16th at 10:50pm. Please dont suck!

----------


## Frontier

> 


O hey, we get to see Jim without his hat and the inside of the GCPD! And Crispus Allen  :EEK!: .

I wonder if the Bat-Signal always sparks like that whenever they turn it on or if it's because it's so old? 

I like that Fisher's mo-cap suit has an eye-piece. 

Is that line about Aquaman talking to fish going to be in the actual movie  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> O hey, we get to see Jim without his hat and the inside of the GCPD! And Crispus Allen .
> 
> I wonder if the Bat-Signal always sparks like that whenever they turn it on or if it's because it's so old? 
> 
> I like that Fisher's mo-cap suit has an eye-piece. 
> 
> *Is that line about Aquaman talking to fish going to be in the actual movie ?*


I hope not. It's funny as an outtake but it's probably too much for the film, for my taste anyway. "The Aquatic Community" lol

----------


## Frontier

> I hope not. It's funny as an outtake but it's probably too much for the film, for my taste anyway. "The Aquatic Community" lol


It would've been a great _Brave and the Bold_ joke  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

I know I said that I didn't plan on seeing Justice League, but now that I've just gotten a free ticket for the day it comes out, I may as well go. Of course, this means that I'll be able to bi**h about this movie properly!  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

> I know I said that I didn't plan on seeing Justice League, but now that I've just gotten a free ticket for the day it comes out, I may as well go. Of course, this means that I'll be able to bi**h about this movie properly!


I hope you and anyone else getting to see it early are able to enjoy it  :Smile: .

----------


## Johnny

If it goes anywhere, it's smart to use Crispus Allen as The Spectre rather than Jim Corrigan. Spectre was prominently featured in the DCEU intro too.

----------


## Frontier

> If it goes anywhere, it's smart to use Crispus Allen as The Spectre rather than Jim Corrigan. Spectre was prominently featured in the DCEU intro too.


It'd be kind of hilarious if they have Crispus just randomly turn up in a Justice League movie, when they never even announced his casting, and then turn him into the Spectre at some point  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Although if we get Crispus Spectre in the DCEU I want Corrigan in the Arrowverse (which I guess he is since _Constantine_ was inserted in late).

----------


## mace11

> O hey, we get to see Jim without his hat and the inside of the GCPD! And Crispus Allen .
> Is that line about Aquaman talking to fish going to be in the actual movie ?


I think so.




> I hope not. It's funny as an outtake but it's probably too much for the film, for my taste anyway. "The Aquatic Community" lol


See what i mean.
Prepare for more of it.

----------


## Assam

> I hope you and anyone else getting to see it early are able to enjoy it .


Thanks. I'm sure one way or another, I'll find a way to enjoy this. (Still planning on a rewatch of Justice League 1997 though. Been years since I watched that masterpiece)

----------


## Black_Adam

All this positive buzz but I really don't want to get my hopes up, we heard exactly the same things about BvS and Squad. In fact BoxOfficeZ's comments worried me he basically said it has huge editing problems but is "fun" that was pretty much the word on Squad and we saw how that ended up. Now if WB are really moving up the embargo like some have said that would be an actual good indicator for JL.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Thanks. I'm sure one way or another, I'll find a way to enjoy this. (Still planning on a rewatch of Justice League 1997 though. Been years since I watched that masterpiece)


Oh I've never seen that and am planning to watch that as a bizarre fan prep.

----------


## Elmo

I remember posting in the CBR thread for Justice League Mortal way back. Now a JL movie is actually happening!!

----------


## nightbird



----------


## nightbird



----------


## Thomas Crown

> 


The bit starting at the 0:48 mark it's an obvious reshoot. The editing, the contrast in lighting and cinematography, Affleck's appearance, the pointless forced quip. I guess my fears about Whedon scenes sticking out like a sore thumb were true.

----------


## nightbird

> In the 0:48 mark, it's an obvious reshoot. The editing, the contrast in lighting and cinematography, Affleck's appearance, the pointless forced quip. I guess my fears about Whedon scenes sticking out like a sore thumb were true.


I doubt anyone expect Affleck (for obvious reasons) would even look different in the movie to catch what was added after Whedon (without nitpicking). Also based on background music it's not a full clip. They cut some stuff in the middle.

----------


## Soubhagya

I can understand the situation to an extent. Snyder's movies either work for you or they don't. For a lot of fans it worked. They continue to defend them. Its not wrong. All forms of art are subjective. What works for me may not work for others. So fans like Thomas have continued to defend Snyder's movies which have been subjected to a lot of attacks. I think the attacks has been disproportional. For a lot of DC fans it was not good enough as it was below their expectations. For a lot from Marvel its the fanboys who continue to attack anything DC.  

And now DC seems to have moved away from it. So, that's years of work by the fans wasted. And that too without giving a proper chance. MoS 2 was not given. BvS was hacked to pieces. So i can understand what such fans feel. Its okay if Thomas feels bitter. I would have been if i had been in his place.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> The bit starting at the 0:48 mark it's an obvious reshoot. The editing, the contrast in lighting and cinematography, Affleck's appearance, the pointless forced quip. I guess my fears about Whedon scenes sticking out like a sore thumb were true.


Wasn't the " so you talk to fish?" Line in one of the earliest JL teasers, I.E. BEFORE Whedon came aboard?

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I can understand the situation to an extent. Snyder's movies either work for you or they don't. For a lot of fans it worked. They continue to defend them. Its not wrong. All forms of art are subjective. What works for me may not work for others. So fans like Thomas have continued to defend Snyder's movies which have been subjected to a lot of attacks. I think the attacks has been disproportional. For a lot of DC fans it was not good enough as it was below their expectations. For a lot from Marvel its the fanboys who continue to attack anything DC.  
> 
> And now DC seems to have moved away from it. So, that's years of work by the fans wasted. And that too without giving a proper chance. MoS 2 was not given. BvS was hacked to pieces. So i can understand what such fans feel. Its okay if Thomas feels bitter. I would have been if i had been in his place.


I think it's prudent to actually wait until people actually see the movie before jumping to any conclusions based on just rumors and clips. It's very possible Thomas is right and it's a hacked up mess that completely deviates from what Snyder's original intention for JL, or it could actually work out. I think we all need to chill out and an actual consensus from the fan community actually watch the movie.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Wasn't the " so you talk to fish?" Line in one of the earliest JL teasers, I.E. BEFORE Whedon came aboard?


Yes, but I'm talking about the "can you at least point me to Atlantis?" bit. It was obviously part of the reshoots. And for what? Just to add a pointless "funny" line in a scene that already ended on a lighter note with the "I hear you can talk to fish" joke.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Yes, but I'm talking about the "can you at least point me to Atlantis?" bit. It was obviously part of the reshoots. And for what? Just to add a pointless "funny" line in a scene that already ended on a lighter note with the "I hear you can talk to fish" joke.


Hmm. Quite possible. Wasn't it said that Snyder brought in Whedon to write some dialogue? Its possible that this is what Snyder wanted.

----------


## Elmo

> Yes, but I'm talking about the "can you at least point me to Atlantis?" bit. It was obviously part of the reshoots. And for what? Just to add a pointless "funny" line in a scene that already ended on a lighter note with the "I hear you can talk to fish" joke.


I disagree. Studios tend to edit out certain things from officially released clips (it was done for BvS) to not spoil too much or to not give an obvious idea of what the scene will be like. Unless you have a direct line to WB about this I'd say ease up on the assumptions

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Yes, but I'm talking about the "can you at least point me to Atlantis?" bit. It was obviously part of the reshoots. And for what? Just to add a pointless "funny" line in a scene that already ended on a lighter note with the "I hear you can talk to fish" joke.


Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the clarification.

----------


## nightbird

*Ben Affleck Says Justice Leagues Course Was Established Before Snyder Left*




> The movie is Zacks DNA. He cast the movie, designed the movie. Theres something I think people dont understand who dont actually work on movies, which is how much work is done in prep. How much, you know, the casting, the sets get built, the story was written, the ship is, in essence, sailing. Ive found as a director you can maybe 10 percent, 15 percent or something on the day, so you really have Zacks ship set sail with us and we were fortunate that when Zack was not able to continue we got really lucky in that we got a guy whos very accomplished in his own right, and particularly in this genre, and he kind of sprinkled some of his fairy dust on our movie and finished it. I dont think theres any way to go back to look and say Thats a Joss scene or thats a Zack scene. It was more they were working together toward a common goal even better than I would certainly, but I get a sense that Joss was working from what he had discussed with Zack before he stepped in.


https://screenrant.com/ben-affleck-s...e-snyder-left/

----------


## Thomas Crown

> I don’t think there’s any way to go back to look and say ‘That’s a Joss scene’ or ‘that’s a Zack scene.’


I identified the Whedon bit in that Aquaman clip on my first view.

Let me explain to those who still didn't understand. I would have no problem with Whedon doing the reshoots if his scenes meshed well with Zack's footage. But he didn't even bother to call Fabian Wagner again for the reshoots. Even though he did what was originally planned by Zack for the reshoots, that doesn't mean that he was able to make these new scenes look like they were actually part of a Zack Snyder movie. I know that we have to wait for the movie to come out and sorry for sounding so pessimistic, but I was expecting a Justice League movie directed by Zack Snyder to close his DCEU trilogy. Not a patchwork of a movie made by two people with almost completely different styles.

----------


## Elmo

Dude...the movie was already funny. We could tell from that original comic Con trailer. There is no way to tell that's a reshoot scene other than your own paranoia. Like I said, official clips often have stuff cut out. And even if that is the final product, you still can't tell. I'm gonna choose to believe Affleck over your own assumptions.

----------


## nightbird

I doubt even Zack would've been able to mask what happened to Ben between principle photography and reshoots. That's the only thing that truly stands out. Honestly, I like Zack and his movies (I liked both MoS and BvS; I also like his style and I think he is incredibly talented director), but this mindset that "Whedon and Elfman hijacked Zack's vision" thing is becoming kinda annoying. He had a big reason to step down, let's not forget about that.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

How many times must it be said that Snyder and Co. purposely made BvS dark? As in many trilogies, the second story is almost always the darkest. They intended for JL to be much lighter, even Snyder said that. It's certainly probable that after the horrid reception of BvS they decided to _really_ focus on delivering more humor, but the blueprints were there. 

My only gripe right now is that I think Elfman is going to bring a very safe and, do I daresay, generic soundtrack for JL, whereas Zimmer and Junkie would not have. But, we'll see!

----------


## Lightning Rider

Trying not to watch any more clips. Again the marketing is practically letting me build entire scenes with what they leak out. But at least it’s not during any climaxes.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

With Shazam/Captain Marvel I wouldn't mind if Billy does age over the course of the series rather than being eternally ten like in the comics. Rather than recasting constantly to keep the illusion I rather they write the story and the character with him aging in mind.

----------


## Bossace

When does the review embargo lift? Also I know here in the US we get it the 17th but is it coming out sooner in other countries?

----------


## Robotman

> When does the review embargo lift? Also I know here in the US we get it the 17th but is it coming out sooner in other countries?


The embargo current lifts two days before the release date.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Hmm. Quite possible. Wasn't it said that Snyder brought in Whedon to write some dialogue? Its possible that this is what Snyder wanted.


I think this will potentially be an A.I. situation. If it's a hit with everyone then everyone will get credit and benefit but if it's divisive in anyway there will be those who think Joss ruined Zack's vision even if it was what Zack might had wanted. In case you never saw or heard about the A.I. situation Stanley Kubrick was working on developing A.I. when he died after which Steve Spielberg took over and directed. Towards the end of the film there is a scene that many felt was Kubrick's ending but it is followed by a "typical Hollywood Ending" in the last 15 minutes or so. Many blamed Spielberg for "ruining" the film with "his" ending well irony that was Kubrick's ending there are notes of him even fighting with others who disliked it but he wanted it so Spielberg was simply respecting Kubrick's wishes.

----------


## nightbird

Spoilers guys. Especially if you saw that clip from Spanish TV.

----------


## nightbird

Elfman's Batman theme.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## nightbird



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## nightbird



----------


## CPSparkles

Jesus I feel for Warner at this point even if they produce diamonds on a platter some are going to just see turds in a bowl. I'm always surprised critics have so much sway since creative work is subjective and taste differ but here we are.

I never let critic scores or box office stop me from seeing something I really wanted to. I hope this movie is a critical success so all this will stop.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Elfman's Batman theme.


If nothing else, that is some good Batman-ing.

----------


## manofsteel1979

So far, I'm liking what I'm seeing. 

The 17th can't get here soon enough.

----------


## Troian

I'm gonna repeat what I said in the ww forum about the WW retcon:

I don't care if Diana turns her back on mankind and I don't see why people made it a big deal. She can't save everyone and she can't fight for everyone and likely all the events that happened between WW1 and modern day still happened so its not like she had a super giant impact on anything besides WW1. I actually liked the fact that she turned her back on mankind, it was interesting and could have been extended upon but whatever.

----------


## Troian

I'm not gonna put my hopes up to much because it will likely be a generic gather a group of people and save the world from ending story thats been done to death.

But I'm still hyped.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Went to see Pokémon today and my local had so much JL stuff plastered everywhere honestly man it's surreal. It seemed a million miles away in 2012 when MARVEL released Avengers and Nolan was wrapping up Batman.

----------


## Cmbmool

What I'm hoping the Justice league does is for SOMEONE to call out Batman on Superman's death: He may not have pulled the trigger, but he was a partial fault for the death of Superman. 

Say whatever you want about Batman's overall actions in Batman vs Superman...his motivations and Everything, but you cannot deny the full story of the truth. 

So for him to ask for Superman back....even after he "assist" in killing him, doesn't make him a bit of a hypocritical jerk or something ?

----------


## Punisher007

> I'm gonna repeat what I said in the ww forum about the WW retcon:
> 
> I don't care if Diana turns her back on mankind and I don't see why people made it a big deal. She can't save everyone and she can't fight for everyone and likely all the events that happened between WW1 and modern day still happened so its not like she had a super giant impact on anything besides WW1. I actually liked the fact that she turned her back on mankind,* it was interesting* and could have been extended upon but whatever.


Not really.  The whole "hero gets bitter and cynical and turns their back on people" is actually really cliché.  And given that Snyder also did it with Batman (the uber-bitter and cynical part), it just was dull.  It's not so much "interesting" as it is "incredibly boring" imo.  Just let the hero be a hero for once.  As Gal said, it doesn't fit Diana's character to just, give up.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Not really.  The whole "hero gets bitter and cynical and turns their back on people" is actually really cliché.  And given that Snyder also did it with Batman (the uber-bitter and cynical part), it just was dull.  It's not so much "interesting" as it is "incredibly boring" imo.  Just let the hero be a hero for once.  As Gal said, it doesn't fit Diana's character to just, give up.


That's fine, though the selfless hero is even more of a cliche than the cynical one.  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> What I'm hoping the Justice league does is for SOMEONE to call out Batman on Superman's death: He may not have pulled the trigger, but he was a partial fault for the death of Superman. 
> 
> Say whatever you want about Batman's overall actions in Batman vs Superman...his motivations and Everything, but you cannot deny the full story of the truth. 
> 
> So for him to ask for Superman back....even after he "assist" in killing him, doesn't make him a bit of a hypocritical jerk or something ?


I'm not seeing Batman as being responsible for Supe's "death" or find him to be a hypocrite, FWIW.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm not seeing Batman as being responsible for Supe's "death" or find him to be a hypocrite, FWIW.


It is kind of weird to see how much of a 180 he's made on Superman though.

It's like, I know that's what they were trying to go for with the ending of BvS, but this just doesn't really feel like a natural development from what we saw of them in that movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> That's fine, though the selfless hero is even more of a cliche than the cynical one.


Only in the modern comic book definition of "hero." For most of human history, most "heroes" We're also cynical and not up to the modern definition of "hero."

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Two random things; Aquaman doesn't appear in that rooftop clip with Gordon, but there's a rooftop clip with him in it in one of the trailers ("Dressed like a bat? I dig it."). I wonder if they've cut that sequence, or if there are two rooftop meetings with Gordon and the team in the movie? Secondly, I wonder if the movie is going to properly namecheck all of the major characters. I mean, they may get the entire JL from a newscast or something, but explaining how a weird space alien warlord is actually called "Steppenwolf" might be a bridge too far.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Only in the modern comic book definition of "hero." For most of human history, most "heroes" We're also cynical and not up to the modern definition of "hero."


That's true. They usually weren't paragons of virtue, unless targeted strictly to children.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It is kind of weird to see how much of a 180 he's made on Superman though.
> 
> It's like, I know that's what they were trying to go for with the ending of BvS, but this just doesn't really feel like a natural development from what we saw of them in that movie.


I didn't have a problem with that myself, Frontier, but I can understand where you're coming from there. It still wouldn't make Bruce culpable or a hypocrite, IMO.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm not seeing Batman as being responsible for Supe's "death" or find him to be a hypocrite, FWIW.


I dont think he's a "hypocrite" so much as he had a major change in opinion that highlights how f**king stupid he had been acting, how far off his own path he had fallen, and how easily manipulated he had become.

I do however, hold him partially accountable for Clark's death. 

If Bruce hadn't been such a twat, when Superman showed up and was all "Bro, I know we dont see eye to eye but I need a hand saving innocent lives!" Bruce could've helped Clark deal with Lex and save Martha, nice and quick and clean. And maybe they could've even stopped Doomsday from emerging from the Kryptonian ship at all. 

Instead, Bruce exhausts Clark with kryptonite poisoning. Wouldn't surprise me if that was still slowing Clark down a bit when they were fighting Doomsday. Had Clark been fresh and rested, he might have been able to subdue the monster (or throw him into the sun or whatever) without having to resort to the spear. 

Bruce made Superman get into two fights for his life within the span of a half hour. I dont care who you are, that's gonna tire you out. So yes, I do think Batman is partially to blame for Superman's death. Had Batman acted like a gods damn adult, Clark might very well still be alive.

If nothing else, he's still guilty of murder and attempted murder. I'll give him a pass for the thugs and crooks he blew to hell indiscriminately, since I dont hold that sort of thing against other heroes like Captain America, but he's very much guilty of trying to kill someone who hadn't committed a crime and had saved many lives for no reason beyond paranoia and fear.

----------


## mace11

Well superman has limitless stamina but only in direct sunlight in comics.
Some others in dc and marvel have limitless stamina too for example.
For the dceu he may or may not have it.
It's hard to say.
I may have look it up in the dceu wiki for dceu superman powers.
Anyway in bvs superman was fighting doomsday at night time.

----------


## ekrolo2

I know with Johns and Elfman involved the wanking would get worse but the clips and synopsis for the movie really do not bode well for this movies quality. It looks trashier by the second and the dick suck of old DC movie glory isn't gonna help.

Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## Frontier

> Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.


Well, Keaton wasn't really the "swashbuckling hero type" either. 

I think it fits with this Batman if they're trying to go for a more classic feel for him.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## Vanguard-01

> Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.


He was like that in BvS. It could easily be argued that he was the swashbuckling type for most of his twenty-year career and only started to turn into the darker hero we saw in BvS after he lost Robin and suffered who-knows-how-many other tragedies and losses. Now? He may be trying to come BACK to being that swashbuckling hero.

----------


## Robotman

> I know with Johns and Elfman involved the wanking would get worse but the clips and synopsis for the movie really do not bode well for this movies quality. It looks trashier by the second and the dick suck of old DC movie glory isn't gonna help.
> 
> Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.


Keaton’s Batman killed just as many or more people than Batfleck. He blew up a factory full of scientist and henchmen and strapped a bomb to the circus strongman. His theme, like the character, was pretty damn dark.

I’m fine with them using the classic themes. It represents a culmination of of all the DC films and the fact that we are _finally_ getting to see a Justice League movie. This movie should be a celebration of DC superheroes, so let’s bring back some nastalgia. They have no plans to do Justice League part 2 at this time and are going to focus on solo films. Let’s enjoy this team up and remember just how long we’ve had to wait for it to finally happen.

And at the end of the day those classic themes are going to get the average viewers excited. Yeah it’s kinda like the Member Berries routine from South Park, but Star Wars has shown us that people love pop culture nastalgia.

----------


## Pinsir

I just discovered my mother booked the 17th off as she was watching a compilation of every single Justice League clip. I think she may be obsessed...  :Confused:

----------


## Soubhagya

> It is kind of weird to see how much of a 180 he's made on Superman though.
> 
> It's like, I know that's what they were trying to go for with the ending of BvS, but this just doesn't really feel like a natural development from what we saw of them in that movie.



There should have been a line something like this: I was wrong. When he implored to save Martha i understood that he has a mother too. He was not some alien monster but someone like me. I would have been the monster here to separate a mother and her son. 

So it is clumsy though the intent is good. Batman was saved by Superman. He realized the error of his ways. This is what is meant to be understood. But it does not work.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Keaton’s Batman killed just as many or more people than Batfleck. He blew up a factory full of scientist and henchmen and strapped a bomb to the circus strongman. His theme, like the character, was pretty damn dark.
> 
> I’m fine with them using the classic themes. It represents a culmination of of all the DC films and the fact that we are _finally_ getting to see a Justice League movie. This movie should be a celebration of DC superheroes, so let’s bring back some nastalgia. They have no plans to do Justice League part 2 at this time and are going to focus on solo films. Let’s enjoy this team up and remember just how long we’ve had to wait for it to finally happen.
> 
> And at the end of the day those classic themes are going to get the average viewers excited. Yeah it’s kinda like the Member Berries routine from South Park, but Star Wars has shown us that people love pop culture nastalgia.


Parts of it are dark but a large part of it is clearly for swashbuckling action as many of the action scenes will attest, and that music does not fit this Batman personality wise or even visually.

I'm well aware that the current entertainment industry can't fuck off with its obnoxious nostalgia boner, I dislike it everywhere it appears, Star Wars included. It's especially annoying since this is supposed to be new versions of Batman and Superman, who had their own musical ques but now don't and probably won't again because that nostalgia boner can't fuck off from Justice League either. To say nothing of how they're forcibly trying to "classic" up both characters to hastily win credit back with people. 

Make your new crap be its own thing or just don't do it, spare me the nostalgia pandering.




> He was like that in BvS. It could easily be argued that he was the swashbuckling type for most of his twenty-year career and only started to turn into the darker hero we saw in BvS after he lost Robin and suffered who-knows-how-many other tragedies and losses. Now? He may be trying to come BACK to being that swashbuckling hero.


The problem is the transition doesn't feel natural at all, at the end of BvS you can tell things are different in a way that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb but now we've got them trying to pass off Cavill's Supes as Donner and Batman as some swashbuckling hero guy. It doesn't work, it's all so painfully pandering to nostalgia and what people call the "classic" versions it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

----------


## Frontier

I enjoy Elfman's Batman theme, so I'm not going to complain about getting to hear it again  :Smile: .

It's like how _Justice League Action_ brought back the B:TAS theme for a few moments.

----------


## BatmanJones

> He was like that in BvS. It could easily be argued that he was the swashbuckling type for most of his twenty-year career and only started to turn into the darker hero we saw in BvS after he lost Robin and suffered who-knows-how-many other tragedies and losses. Now? He may be trying to come BACK to being that swashbuckling hero.


I think it was a HUGE mistake to spoil both the Robin suit with the graffiti on it AND the newspaper article with the words "you let your family die" (or whatever it was) on it in the trailers. Those things were in every trailer.

Imagine how much impact they might have had if seen for the first time in the cinema. By the time we saw the movie every reason for Bruce being a totally different Bruce than we'd ever known had been spoiled which made it a lot more difficult to go on that emotional journey with him.

I might have actually enjoyed BvS if every moment I actually enjoyed (apart from the warehouse fight) hadn't been spoiled by trailers. As it was it felt to me like just a series of moments strung together and not a believably emotional narrative (not for Batman, Superman, Lois, WW, Alfred, Lex, anyone). I wonder how I might have reacted differently if I'd seen the scene of Bruce rushing into the disaster for the first time in the movie theater? And if I'd seen that Robin suit (and learned of his death) and that newspaper article for the first time there.

As it was every potentially mind-blowing moment except that one fight scene (not the titular one) had been in the trailers and no matter how excited I was walking in, to walk out with zero "WTF that was amazing!" moments, and to feel the film was mostly just a matter of gluing memorable moments from the trailers together, completely deflated the incredible enthusiasm I walked in with.

This isn't just another anti-BvS post. I'm genuinely wondering if the trailers hadn't spoiled so many of the most important moments of the film I might have actually enjoyed the thing. I'm trying to allow for the fact that I may have been able to like it under different circumstances.

And maybe too my problem is having always had too high of expectations for these movies. The last one I was completely swept away by was Superman II. I thought there were things about The Dark Knight that made it amazing (and seeing the bank robbery that opened the movie in cinema not in trailers was key to that--my jaw was on the floor and the Nolan movies had so many scenes that had that effect on me) but I still walked away disappointed by the ending, feeling it was too pat. Still to see Heath Ledger play The Joker was beyond my wildest expectations ever. I had never imagined the character could be so freaking compelling. Meanwhile I felt Two-Face (post-accident) was rather shallow in his portrayal.

I actually even walked out of Batman Begins disappointed and it took me several viewings to come to love it and ultimately the whole Nolan trilogy though I've always had complaints with each of these films. Every superhero film I mean. None has felt 100% satisfying to me at the time of watching it and I know that's because my hopes are too high. Even with the Nolan films I had huge complaints about the Batman costume which I'd never liked until BvS (and now I love and wonder why the heck it took them so long to get it right) and I felt the themes running through the trilogy were a little too easy though there were so dang many "WTF I can't believe I'm seeing this in live-action!" moments in the Nolan films and none (for me) in BvS that hadn't been in trailers.

I've come to appreciate Burton's Batman movies for what they were, on their grounds, not mine, because I never liked his feeling for Batman. I never felt he _had_ a feeling for him. My response was my response to most Burton films: incredible ideas and cinematography, zero heart or soul. Which are exactly my issues with Snyder so far too, coincidentally. By the time I could appreciate the Burton films though, having been so let down by them when they came out, they were totally dated. Batman Returns is better to watch now than Batman, which comes off as very cheesy now with Nicholson's Joker too feeling very dated and not at all imaginative to me, particularly next to Ledger's performance which I'd have to say has been the best of any character in any superhero movie.

But even though I do have my hopes set way too high for any filmmaker really to satisfy them, I am always hopelessly optimistic going into them. I always believe whichever one I'm seeing will be the one that I finally love without reservation. And, here I go again, because I completely and totally believe Justice League will be the one that finally does that for me.

Unless/until I'm proven otherwise I will expect to be blown away by this movie and I can't freaking wait to see it. I stopped watching new trailers about a week ago. Now I'm wishing I hadn't seen any of them so the whole thing would be new to me.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> 


“Have you read the Rebirth comics?”

I died and was born again when that so casually came out of his mouth

----------


## Ascended

I lost my sh*t when I heard he plays Warcraft, and on my faction! (well, my former faction, I havent played in years)

At some point I might've run content with Superman. It's nice to think that I may have helped the Man of Steel defeat the Lich King yknow?

----------


## Pinsir

So I just found out there is a Rick and Morty cameo in JL!  :Mad:  Why must all these DC movies have something awful in them? BvS had that Niel 'Pluto Bashin'" Tyson in them and now this!!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So I just found out there is a Rick and Morty cameo in JL!  Why must all these DC movies have something awful in them? BvS had that Niel 'Pluto Bashin'" Tyson in them and now this!!


Isn't the cameo basically just one of the monitors in Flash's hideout happens to be playing an episode of the show? Unless there's another cameo, that's about as easy as it gets to ignore or fail to notice.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It is kind of weird to see how much of a 180 he's made on Superman though.
> 
> It's like, I know that's what they were trying to go for with the ending of BvS, but this just doesn't really feel like a natural development from what we saw of them in that movie.


I was thinking that, too. Not to mention the clips just looked choppy in general. Also, not a fan of the shot, reverse shot of the Batman and Flash scene.




> What I'm hoping the Justice league does is for SOMEONE to call out Batman on Superman's death: He may not have pulled the trigger, but he was a partial fault for the death of Superman. 
> 
> Say whatever you want about Batman's overall actions in Batman vs Superman...his motivations and Everything, but you cannot deny the full story of the truth. 
> 
> So for him to ask for Superman back....even after he "assist" in killing him, doesn't make him a bit of a hypocritical jerk or something ?


What are you going on about? Batman had nothing to do with Superman's death.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Parts of it are dark but a large part of it is clearly for swashbuckling action as many of the action scenes will attest, and that music does not fit this Batman personality wise or even visually.
> 
> I'm well aware that the current entertainment industry can't fuck off with its obnoxious nostalgia boner, I dislike it everywhere it appears, Star Wars included. It's especially annoying since this is supposed to be new versions of Batman and Superman, who had their own musical ques but now don't and probably won't again because that nostalgia boner can't fuck off from Justice League either. To say nothing of how they're forcibly trying to "classic" up both characters to hastily win credit back with people. 
> 
> Make your new crap be its own thing or just don't do it, spare me the nostalgia pandering.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the transition doesn't feel natural at all, at the end of BvS you can tell things are different in a way that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb but now we've got them trying to pass off Cavill's Supes as Donner and Batman as some swashbuckling hero guy. It doesn't work, it's all so painfully pandering to nostalgia and what people call the "classic" versions it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Basically everything I've been thinking. It's really starting to lower my excitement for this movie.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I think it was a HUGE mistake to spoil both the Robin suit with the graffiti on it AND the newspaper article with the words "you let your family die" (or whatever it was) on it in the trailers. Those things were in every trailer.
> 
> Imagine how much impact they might have had if seen for the first time in the cinema. By the time we saw the movie every reason for Bruce being a totally different Bruce than we'd ever known had been spoiled which made it a lot more difficult to go on that emotional journey with him.
> 
> I might have actually enjoyed BvS if every moment I actually enjoyed (apart from the warehouse fight) hadn't been spoiled by trailers. As it was it felt to me like just a series of moments strung together and not a believably emotional narrative (not for Batman, Superman, Lois, WW, Alfred, Lex, anyone). I wonder how I might have reacted differently if I'd seen the scene of Bruce rushing into the disaster for the first time in the movie theater? And if I'd seen that Robin suit (and learned of his death) and that newspaper article for the first time there.
> 
> As it was every potentially mind-blowing moment except that one fight scene (not the titular one) had been in the trailers and no matter how excited I was walking in, to walk out with zero "WTF that was amazing!" moments, and to feel the film was mostly just a matter of gluing memorable moments from the trailers together, completely deflated the incredible enthusiasm I walked in with.
> 
> This isn't just another anti-BvS post. I'm genuinely wondering if the trailers hadn't spoiled so many of the most important moments of the film I might have actually enjoyed the thing. I'm trying to allow for the fact that I may have been able to like it under different circumstances.
> ...


I often felt that if they kept Wonder Woman, Doomsday and the Robin stuff secret and shown it as the Ultimate edition in theaters,it would have been an even better experience, and this is from someone who liked it. It puzzles me why they spoiled so much in the trailers for BvS.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I often felt that if they kept Wonder Woman, Doomsday and the Robin stuff secret and shown it as the Ultimate edition in theaters,it would have been an even better experience, and this is from someone who liked it. It puzzles me why they spoiled so much in the trailers for BvS.


Likely as enticement for people to go to the cinema.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Elmo

> I'm gonna repeat what I said in the ww forum about the WW retcon:
> 
> I don't care if Diana turns her back on mankind and I don't see why people made it a big deal. She can't save everyone and she can't fight for everyone and likely all the events that happened between WW1 and modern day still happened so its not like she had a super giant impact on anything besides WW1. I actually liked the fact that she turned her back on mankind, it was interesting and could have been extended upon but whatever.


There's no retcon. The exact quote is "I left after a century of horrors" there was NEVER an indication she was inactive for an entire century and that she turned her back on mankind. The idea that a simple clarification of something is considered a retcon is really annoying.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> There's no retcon. The exact quote is "I left after a century of horrors" there was NEVER an indication she was inactive for an entire century and that she turned her back on mankind. The idea that a simple clarification of something is considered a retcon is really annoying.


The exact line was "A hundred years ago, I walked away from mankind. From a century of horrors. Men made a world where standing together is impossible."

That means she walked away a hundred years ago. Not after a century. It means she walked away right after WW I, and THAT does indeed deserve a retcon. 

Wonder Woman does NOT abandon innocent people to 100 years of death and suffering while refusing to lift a finger to help. She certainly doesn't do it simply because she saw one brief example of humanity at its worst and lost her boyfriend of....what? Two days?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_#Shazam! finds its Billy Batson with 'Andi Mack' actor @Asherdovangel_

https://twitter.com/THR/status/927588907067330560

----------


## Frontier

> _#Shazam! finds its Billy Batson with 'Andi Mack' actor @Asherdovangel_
> 
> https://twitter.com/THR/status/927588907067330560


It's kind of funny that both halves of Shazam are people associated with Disney productions  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Vanguard-01

> _#Shazam! finds its Billy Batson with 'Andi Mack' actor @Asherdovangel_
> 
> https://twitter.com/THR/status/927588907067330560


Yup! Looks like Billy Batson to me!  :Smile: 

Here's hoping he can act. Never seen him before.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I hope the rumor Henry's Superman is a guest star in the Shazam movie is true. Seeing Supes as a mentor to a young kid who suddenly gets these powers would be illuminating and show a side we really haven't seen in any live action Superman to date, I.E. a somewhat paternal role. It also would be a great way to build on the good will hopefully JL will establish toward Superman.

----------


## Cmbmool

> What are you going on about? Batman had nothing to do with Superman's death.


It was Batman who made the krytonite spear that not only killed Doomsday, but it was original made to kill Superman.

----------


## Agent Z

The Flash apparently won't be using his code name in Justice League 

Ezra Miller:




> “Barry is just Barry at this point. And there was even a scene that was cut from the movie where he’s going on and on and on, trying to figure out — ‘Why was that scene cut from the movie?’ He’s, like, going on and on and on, trying to figure out what he should be, and what he should call himself. See, he doesn’t have a superhero name yet.”


https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-only-mem...ame-1820180990

Predictably, the comments are filled with people complaining about WB being ashamed of their characters despite even Marvel barely using the code names in the movies.

----------


## Agent Z

The Flash apparently won't be using his code name in Justice League 

Ezra Miller:




> Barry is just Barry at this point. And there was even a scene that was cut from the movie where hes going on and on and on, trying to figure out  Why was that scene cut from the movie? Hes, like, going on and on and on, trying to figure out what he should be, and what he should call himself. See, he doesnt have a superhero name yet.


https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-only-mem...ame-1820180990

Predictably, the comments are filled with people complaining about WB being ashamed of their characters despite even Marvel barely using the code names in the movies.

----------


## Frontier

> The Flash apparently won't be using his code name in Justice League 
> 
> Ezra Miller:
> 
> 
> 
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-only-mem...ame-1820180990
> 
> Predictably, the comments are filled with people complaining about WB being ashamed of their characters despite even Marvel barely using the code names in the movies.


This version of The Flash is so weird  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I mean, they managed to fit in Aquaman's codename so I'm not sure why Flash doesn't have his. The TV show has had no problem promoting The Flash being The Flash, but it generally uses codenames more then we get in either the movies or the MCU.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It was Batman who made the krytonite spear that not only killed Doomsday, but it was original made to kill Superman.


Yeah, not going to see that in the new film because Batman still had nothing to do with Supe's "death." Sorry.  :Smile:

----------


## Robotman

He really should have his damn code name by now. He already put the symbol on the costume. You’d think he would come up with the name before spending the time to create the Flash symbol. I really hate when they draw out the naming process. The CW shows are notorious for this. I kind of understand the tv format wanting to take their time with developing the character. But it’s just painful having to listen to everyone call the hero “the hood” or “the blur” or “the streak”. It’s just dumb to do this in the film.

----------


## Frontier

> He really should have his damn code name by now. He already put the symbol on the costume. You’d think he would come up with the name before spending the time to create the Flash symbol. I really hate when they draw out the naming process. The CW shows are notorious for this. I kind of understand the tv format wanting to take their time with developing the character. But it’s just painful having to listen to everyone call the hero “the hood” or “the blur” or “the streak”. It’s just dumb to do this in the film.


At least we only had "The Streak" for, what, three or four episodes? 

_Arrow_ was kind of weird in that we had Ollie get "The Arrow" as a codename in season 2 but it took four seasons before he started going by Green Arrow. It's almost easy to forget how many different, prototype, codenames he had.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I hope the rumor Henry's Superman is a guest star in the Shazam movie is true. Seeing Supes as a mentor to a young kid who suddenly gets these powers would be illuminating and show a side we really haven't seen in any live action Superman to date, I.E. a somewhat paternal role. It also would be a great way to build on the good will hopefully JL will establish toward Superman.


This is my hope as well. It would tide us over until they (hopefully) greenlight MoS2, while also setting the foundation for the future Superman/Black Adam throwdown (I know BA isnt schduled to be in Shazam!, but this would introduce Superman into that corner of the DCU).

----------


## Clark_Kent

I don’t have any issues with the Flash name thing. We’ve yet to hear “Wonder Woman” in a film yet, and that worked out fine. 

We’ve heard Bruce say “THE Aquaman”, more like a description than a name, and we know Diana says “he’s a Cyborg” when referring to Vic. So the names are there without really being codenames. I bet a certain someone might comment on Barry’s speed after he returns from the grave, and thus the Flash will have a name.

----------


## Frontier

> I don’t have any issues with the Flash name thing. We’ve yet to hear “Wonder Woman” in a film yet, and that worked out fine. 
> 
> We’ve heard Bruce say “THE Aquaman”, more like a description than a name, and we know Diana says “he’s a Cyborg” when referring to Vic. So the names are there without really being codenames. I bet a certain someone might comment on Barry’s speed after he returns from the grave, and thus the Flash will have a name.


I dunno, The Flash is one of the more Superhero-y heroes of the DCU so it would feel weird to have him in this without a codename. 

Especially since the TV show doesn't have a problem with using it.

But this Flash feels more like Kid Flash anyways, so  :Stick Out Tongue: ...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Lex already named him.  :Stick Out Tongue:  "meta_human_alpha_*FL*"

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Lex already named him.  "meta_human_alpha_*FL*"


Though what if Lex's name for him is not The Flash but instead The Flow? :P

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Offbeat Super-Heroes Take on Comic-Book Stalwarts:* https://www.wsj.com/articles/offbeat...man-1509997635

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I dunno, The Flash is one of the more Superhero-y heroes of the DCU so it would feel weird to have him in this without a codename. 
> 
> Especially since the TV show doesn't have a problem with using it.
> 
> But this Flash feels more like Kid Flash anyways, so ...


We’ll get there, and I don’t think they have a ‘problem’ using it. Barry, in this film, obviously hasn’t been doing the hero thing for very long (I don’t think he was putting his long hair under that mask during the time of BvS), and for all we know his appearance in SS could have been his first time out in the suit. He’ll get his name, and I bet it’ll be by the end of this movie (similar to Superman not being mentioned in MoS until the last 20 minutes). 

TV Barry also fought his first meta without the name, if I recall, and without the logo on his chest. I think that came after, but I could be mistaken.

----------


## Charmed

> 


He lives in Ft. Lauderdale? Now I have a reason to take the bus up there again lol

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Uh oh. Warner Bros. isn't releasing the review embargo for Justice League until Nov. 15. That is a terrible, terrible sign.

----------


## gbshabo

> Uh oh. Warner Bros. isn't releasing the review embargo for Justice League until Nov. 15. That is a terrible, terrible sign.


Warner Brothers always pick two days before I movies release as the Embargo date rarely do they adjust it. nothing unusual.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Uh oh. Warner Bros. isn't releasing the review embargo for Justice League until Nov. 15. That is a terrible, terrible sign.


Not necessarily. Sometimes they avoid lifting the embargo that late simply because they want to avoid spoilers.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I like the choice for Billy.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Now, the good news:

In the Wall Street Journal article that was linked on the previous page, apparently Justice League, after the changes that were made following the test screenings in late September, was screened again and received scores that were close to what Wonder Woman received!

Also, Jon Schnepp just said (skip to the 42 minute mark) that he's hearing that JL screenings for critics have gone over pretty well and there "shouldn't be a lot of rotten," of course referring to the Rotten Tomatoes score. He's so confident in what he's hearing that he's projecting a 140-150 million dollar opening weekend and thinks the film will be a massive, massive hit.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Now, the good news:
> 
> In the Wall Street Journal article that was linked on the previous page, apparently Justice League, after the changes that were made following the test screenings in late September, was screened again and received scores that were close to what Wonder Woman received!
> 
> Also, Jon Schnepp just said (skip to the 42 minute mark) that he's hearing that JL screenings for critics have gone over pretty well and there "shouldn't be a lot of rotten," of course referring to the Rotten Tomatoes score. He's so confident in what he's hearing that he's projecting a 140-150 million dollar opening weekend and thinks the film will be a massive, massive hit.


If it's scoring on a Wonder Woman level, then that almost guarantees they'll drop the embargo sooner. They did it with Wonder Woman, after all. Original lift date was about two days before release. After they got all those good scores from the critics? They lifted it like a week early instead, and that may very well have contributed to the movie making $100 million, opening week. A week's worth of positive word-of-mouth and a Rotten Tomatoes score in the 90s definitely helped build up more hype for the movie.

The only reason now for them to keep the embargo up is if there are some HUGE surprises in the film and they just don't want to risk having them spoiled too early.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> If it's scoring on a Wonder Woman level, then that almost guarantees they'll drop the embargo sooner. They did it with Wonder Woman, after all. Original lift date was about two days before release. After they got all those good scores from the critics? They lifted it like a week early instead, and that may very well have contributed to the movie making $100 million, opening week. A week's worth of positive word-of-mouth and a Rotten Tomatoes score in the 90s definitely helped build up more hype for the movie.
> 
> The only reason now for them to keep the embargo up is if there are some HUGE surprises in the film and they just don't want to risk having them spoiled too early.


Well, they JUST sent the email to critics about the embargo date being Nov. 15. So not sure what to make of it all. But I don't think anyone is expecting 90 percent on RT. I'm starting to believe it could be in the 70's though, which would be a massive win for as much as this movie has endured during production.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Well, they JUST sent the email to critics about the embargo date being Nov. 15. So not sure what to make of it all. But I don't think anyone is expecting 90 percent on RT. I'm starting to believe it could be in the 70's though, which would be a massive win for as much as this movie has endured during production.


90s would be phenomenal, but even the 70s is pretty respectable. All this movie needs is a legit "Fresh" rating and I think we're all set for a great run. That'll prove to everyone that Wonder Woman was not a fluke and that the DCEU really is turning a corner now. Heck, it may even get people to re-evaluate their opinions on MOS and BvS somewhat, once they see the final chapter of this three-movie arc on which Snyder was working. No promises obviously. 

And if Justice League scores "Fresh?" Next movie is Aquaman, and I guarantee you that THAT movie will score big. Aquaman seems to be testing very well right now and James Wan is on a red-hot winning streak as a director. So yeah. That'll be a three-movie winning streak by the end of next year.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> 90s would be phenomenal, but even the 70s is pretty respectable. All this movie needs is a legit "Fresh" rating and I think we're all set for a great run. That'll prove to everyone that Wonder Woman was not a fluke and that the DCEU really is turning a corner now. Heck, it may even get people to re-evaluate their opinions on MOS and BvS somewhat, once they see the final chapter of this three-movie arc on which Snyder was working. No promises obviously. 
> 
> And if Justice League scores "Fresh?" Next movie is Aquaman, and I guarantee you that THAT movie will score big. Aquaman seems to be testing very well right now and James Wan is on a red-hot winning streak as a director. So yeah. That'll be a three-movie winning streak by the end of next year.


Agree with all that.

----------


## gbshabo

> If it's scoring on a Wonder Woman level, then that almost guarantees they'll drop the embargo sooner. They did it with Wonder Woman, after all. Original lift date was about two days before release. After they got all those good scores from the critics? They lifted it like a week early instead, and that may very well have contributed to the movie making $100 million, opening week. A week's worth of positive word-of-mouth and a Rotten Tomatoes score in the 90s definitely helped build up more hype for the movie.
> 
> The only reason now for them to keep the embargo up is if there are some HUGE surprises in the film and they just don't want to risk having them spoiled too early.


The Embargo was lifted 3 days early for Wonder Woman. Not a week. The social media embargo was lifted a week early but the critics embargo was only 3 days early

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The Embargo was lifted 3 days early for Wonder Woman. Not a week. The social media embargo was lifted a week early but the critics embargo was only 3 days early


Oops! I believe you're right. My bad!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## golgi

> Well, they JUST sent the email to critics about the embargo date being Nov. 15. So not sure what to make of it all. But I don't think anyone is expecting 90 percent on RT. I'm starting to believe it could be in the 70's though, which would be a massive win for as much as this movie has endured during production.


That was the REVIEW embargo, though. The social media embargo will probably be released before the 15th. IT, WW, and Dunkirk were also released 2-3 days before release, IIRC.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The Embargo was lifted 3 days early for Wonder Woman. Not a week. The social media embargo was lifted a week early but the critics embargo was only 3 days early


Im guessing they’ll lift the social reaction embargo this week, make sure it’s positive and then lift the review embargo a couple days early too.

----------


## Bukdiah

Embargo or not, I just hope the JL is good. I'm nervous to see it, but I have free tickets so the only thing I would be wasting is my time if it is butt sauce. I usually give movies a fair shot so stay away from any reviews and then formulate my own. After hearing all the hype for Thor and then viewing it myself...I don't put much weight into the binary Tomatometer anymore.

----------


## batnbreakfast

What parts of upcoming DCEU movies are you most excited about? It can be the tiniest detail. I'll start with
-Black Mask (still in Gotham City Sirens no?)
-Black Manta (so much potential and he's never talked about)
-Dolph Lundgren (from Eternia to Atlantis is pretty awesome, plus childhood hero)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> What parts of upcoming DCEU movies are you most excited about? It can be the tiniest detail. I'll start with
> -Black Mask (still in Gotham City Sirens no?)
> -Black Manta (so much potential and he's never talked about)
> -Dolph Lundgren (from Eternia to Atlantis is pretty awesome, plus childhood hero)


Pretty pumped about Superman's return. Probably the biggest "single" thing I'm looking forward to. I have a general optimism about the rest but nothing stands out since I don't have much information on how they'll be executed. Black Manta's Origin, Flashpoint's dead mama drama, the use of the New Gods and Darkseid, could really work for me or leave me feeling flat. 

Black Adam and Shazam should both be awesome too. Both come from refreshing angles (a child superhero and a truly compelling villain with dimensions reminiscent of Magneto's appeal).

----------


## nightbird

http://www.nojusticewithouthope.com

I think this could be JL or Superman theme.

----------


## Styles

JL: Jason Momoa Confirms We're Getting An After-Credits Scene

----------


## batnbreakfast

The after credits scenes are really a Marvel thing.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Here's a thought about Ben Affleck and his tenure as Batman and how they could potentially do it if it indeed comes down to Ben leaving the role.

What if the reason Flashpoint comes out before The Batman is that in Flashpoint (if that is the sequence of the film's being released), a younger version of Bruce is brought into the DCEU and the timelines get merged. But since this would be a younger version of Batman, events in his backstory would get confusing if they happened or didn't happen, like Jason Todd's murder. So after Flashpoint brings in the younger Bruce, Matt Reeve's Batman films fully tell the story of Batman's beginnings and continue the DCEU Batman tales post backstory, like in parts 2 and 3. 

Make sense? If Affleck is really leaving, I hope they do it this way and it would also explain why they never have fully committed to him being in Reeves' film.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> What parts of upcoming DCEU movies are you most excited about? It can be the tiniest detail. I'll start with
> -Black Mask (still in Gotham City Sirens no?)
> -Black Manta (so much potential and he's never talked about)
> -Dolph Lundgren (from Eternia to Atlantis is pretty awesome, plus childhood hero)


Oh man, theres a lot for me...Supermans return is #1, definitely. And to keep it Superman related, I hope we see the wedding on film. I think that would be pretty great. 

Non Super stuff though, Im excited for the following: 

 J.K. Simmons as Gordon in The Batman
 Billy Crudup as Henry Allen (Crudup is wonderfully talented, and a joy to watch in any capacity)
 Patrick Wilson in Aquaman 
 Hopefully seeing JDM as Flashpoint Batman

Non casting stuff, I cant wait to see how they explore this Joker & Harley now that they are free in the present day. Im also terribly excited for Easter Eggs & references in every film, because I love have some inside info that the general audience doesnt have lol

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Here's a thought about Ben Affleck and his tenure as Batman and how they could potentially do it if it indeed comes down to Ben leaving the role.
> 
> What if the reason Flashpoint comes out before The Batman is that in Flashpoint (if that is the sequence of the film's being released), a younger version of Bruce is brought into the DCEU and the timelines get merged. But since this would be a younger version of Batman, events in his backstory would get confusing if they happened or didn't happen, like Jason Todd's murder. So after Flashpoint brings in the younger Bruce, Matt Reeve's Batman films fully tell the story of Batman's beginnings and continue the DCEU Batman tales post backstory, like in parts 2 and 3. 
> 
> Make sense? If Affleck is really leaving, I hope they do it this way and it would also explain why they never have fully committed to him being in Reeves' film.


Unless JL bombs with critics again, I don’t see Ben leaving. If it bombs, it could hurt his career comeback in recent years, but I think he’ll stay on a while. And Reeves is on record I believe stating Ben is Batman in his movie (and Ben has raved about working with Reeves). 

Having said that, if he wants to leave then I’m not sure how they make him younger without wiping out the continuity that’s been set forth. I know there are people who wouldn’t mind seeing BvS wiped from the timeline, but I’m not one of them. It erases Superman’s sacrifice, for one, and erases the point of Justice League. If they found a way to make him younger without wiping out what has come before, then fine, but I’m just not sure how they could do it considering this Batman is so integral to what’s happened thus far in the DCEU. 

In comics, it’s easy - the timeline changes, and now Bruce is younger & those other events still happened, they just happened differently. I’m not sure that will work in a movie, though (as far as moviegoers are concerned).

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Oh man, there’s a lot for me...Superman’s return is #1, definitely. And to keep it Superman related, I hope we see the wedding on film. I think that would be pretty great. 
> 
> Non Super stuff though, I’m excited for the following: 
> 
> • J.K. Simmons as Gordon in ‘The Batman’
> • Billy Crudup as Henry Allen (Crudup is wonderfully talented, and a joy to watch in any capacity)
> • Patrick Wilson in Aquaman 
> • Hopefully seeing JDM as Flashpoint Batman
> 
> Non casting stuff, I can’t wait to see how they explore this Joker & Harley now that they are free in the present day. I’m also terribly excited for Easter Eggs & references in every film, because I love have some inside info that the general audience doesn’t have lol


I totally forgot about Crudup. Now I like what you're looking for far more than what I originally posted LOL

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Almost a week to go!! Can't contain my excitement!!

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Unless JL bombs with critics again, I don’t see Ben leaving. If it bombs, it could hurt his career comeback in recent years, but I think he’ll stay on a while. And Reeves is on record I believe stating Ben is Batman in his movie (and Ben has raved about working with Reeves). 
> 
> Having said that, if he wants to leave then I’m not sure how they make him younger without wiping out the continuity that’s been set forth. I know there are people who wouldn’t mind seeing BvS wiped from the timeline, but I’m not one of them. It erases Superman’s sacrifice, for one, and erases the point of Justice League. If they found a way to make him younger without wiping out what has come before, then fine, but I’m just not sure how they could do it considering this Batman is so integral to what’s happened thus far in the DCEU. 
> 
> In comics, it’s easy - the timeline changes, and now Bruce is younger & those other events still happened, they just happened differently. I’m not sure that will work in a movie, though (as far as moviegoers are concerned).


It's much harder and messier in a movie than in the comics. Casual audiences are easily confused and don't necessarily see each movie of a franchise.

----------


## Johnny

If Ben doesn't want to play Batman anymore, I wish him all the best. He's a very good Batman in my opinion and whatever behind the scenes hoopla-combined with real life choices made him think he doesn't want to play the character anymore, won't change my mind that he did a great job with the material he was given. The creative side of the DCEU is a complete mess anyway so this is really nothing surprising.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Dammit. I really hope he doesn't exit. Please.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Dammit. I really hope he doesn't exit. Please.


Yikes...hopefully that was meant towards the “at least” part of the “5-timer, at least” question. It didn’t sound great though, and even answering about SS he sounded tired. 

Dammit.


Edit: I suppose it should be also considered that they are in the midst of a very tiring press tour. I’m reminded of Quinto, after Star Trek Into Darkness was releasing, stating that he was done as Spock; turned out he was just exhausted & then came back for ST3. I’ll still give Ben’s SDCC answer the benefit of the doubt here, and will assume all is well until it’s officially said otherwise.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Yikes...hopefully that was meant towards the “at least” part of the “5-timer, at least” question. It didn’t sound great though, and even answering about SS he sounded tired.


Yeah, he did. He has for a long while now. But I think his seeming fatigue has its roots in depression, which does cause real fatigue. 

I guess we know his marriage fell apart and he had to seek help for alcoholism? Isn't that it? If so, alcoholism and depression are chicken-egg propositions. One never knows which leads to which but if someone has the capacity for clinical depression and is abusing alcohol or needs to enter treatment to get off it, you can be sure he's depressed.

If he'd come to rely on alcohol for a good time, he's either relapsed or he's not having a good time. Probably with anything. As a manic depressive and an alcoholic (2 years plus without owing to chronic Lyme disease) I know what happens when someone with the capacity for depression has his bottle taken away. It's no fun, I promise you that. And it just plain erases the capacity for fun. That's why alcoholics speak of being "in recovery." It takes a long time and a lot of work to get to a place where one can be satisfied and have fun without it if one has come to rely on it in the way any alcoholic does.

When Affleck got up at that comicon to say that playing Batman is the coolest thing ever and the best role ever, I think he was saying what he _thinks/thought_ rather than what he feels/was feeling. I think in a way he was trying to convince himself as in, "Hey self, this is the most fun you could ever have in your job and your career, so have fun with it and keep doing it." Meanwhile, if he is depressed as I suspect... and it's really hard to look at his face in this clip and read him as anything but and of course there's the "Sounds of Silence" meme which also reads as almost out-loud depression... then he might believe those things but he seems to be having difficulty _feeling_ them. And that's what depression does. It kills the things that should be fun. It robs us of the capacity for fun.

Add having to quit drinking when he didn't want to (no one ever wants to) and fun must be incredibly elusive to this guy that seems to have it all.

I think the "wait and see" has little to do with the reception of the films and a lot to do with how he's feeling when he needs to make the decision.

I think he knows walking away from Batman would be very hard for him, as a lifelong comic geek, which he is. I think he knows he'd regret it.

I don't think he's in charge of the decision though. And if I'm right that he is depressed he isn't in charge of it. His depressed brain is.

People that suffer from depression often _can't_ do the things they wish they could do, no matter how hard they try. It is paralyzing.

I hope I'm wrong about all this. It's very hard to look at his face and not read depression in it but I hope I'm wrong. It would be better if he were able to make a decision about his future with Batman with a clear head and not beset by depression because depression lies.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yikes...hopefully that was meant towards the “at least” part of the “5-timer, at least” question. It didn’t sound great though, and even answering about SS he sounded tired. 
> 
> Dammit.
> 
> 
> Edit: I suppose it should be also considered that they are in the midst of a very tiring press tour. I’m reminded of Quinto, after Star Trek Into Darkness was releasing, stating that he was done as Spock; turned out he was just exhausted & then came back for ST3. I’ll still give Ben’s SDCC answer the benefit of the doubt here, and will assume all is well until it’s officially said otherwise.


Yeah gotta keep the faith. I mean "at least 5" does sound ambitious because 2 more movies (the Batman Solo and Justice League 2) would be a reasonable number to finish on. Also, he probably doesn't want to come off to the studios like he thinks he's untouchable or in control of the franchise's projects. What BJ said about depression though seems very applicable as well.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yeah, he did. He has for a long while now. But I think his seeming fatigue has its roots in depression, which does cause real fatigue. 
> 
> I guess we know his marriage fell apart and he had to seek help for alcoholism? Isn't that it? If so, alcoholism and depression are chicken-egg propositions. One never knows which leads to which but if someone has the capacity for clinical depression and is abusing alcohol or needs to enter treatment to get off it, you can be sure he's depressed.
> 
> If he'd come to rely on alcohol for a good time, he's either relapsed or he's not having a good time. Probably with anything. As a manic depressive and an alcoholic (2 years plus without owing to chronic Lyme disease) I know what happens when someone with the capacity for depression has his bottle taken away. It's no fun, I promise you that. And it just plain erases the capacity for fun. That's why alcoholics speak of being "in recovery." It takes a long time and a lot of work to get to a place where one can be satisfied and have fun without it if one has come to rely on it in the way any alcoholic does.
> 
> When Affleck got up at that comicon to say that playing Batman is the coolest thing ever and the best role ever, I think he was saying what he _thinks/thought_ rather than what he feels/was feeling. I think in a way he was trying to convince himself as in, "Hey self, this is the most fun you could ever have in your job and your career, so have fun with it and keep doing it." Meanwhile, if he is depressed as I suspect... and it's really hard to look at his face in this clip and read him as anything but and of course there's the "Sounds of Silence" meme which also reads as almost out-loud depression... then he might believe those things but he seems to be having difficulty _feeling_ them. And that's what depression does. It kills the things that should be fun. It robs us of the capacity for fun.
> 
> Add having to quit drinking when he didn't want to (no one ever wants to) and fun must be incredibly elusive to this guy that seems to have it all.
> ...



This is an extremely good point, and his rehab and issues with alcoholism are things I often forget to take into account when pondering the future of Batman. Thank you for the reminder. Let us hope that when the time comes to fight or flight on ‘The Batman’, that he is in a great place to make such a decision. I would be devastated if he left the role this soon, but I would be equally devastated if he did it just because he felt he had to, and turned in a poor performance as a result of his unhappiness. 




> Yeah gotta keep the faith. I mean "at least 5" does sound ambitious because 2 more movies (the Batman Solo and Justice League 2) would be a reasonable number to finish on. Also, he probably doesn't want to come off to the studios like he thinks he's untouchable or in control of the franchise's projects. What BJ said about depression though seems very applicable as well.


If we got him for only ‘The Batman’ & a JL sequel, I would be eternally grateful. It would give Batman a nice long arc, and that would still be more Batman than we ever got from any other live action actor. I would also love to see him show up in Flashpoint as a bookend, only because I could see Affleck hitting the scene with the letter out of the park. Although, my gut tells me Flashpoint will end up as Justice League: Flashpoint, so if I’m right then I get the best of both worlds. 

I know a lot of fans want to see a Batman trilogy, but I don’t think it’s necessary. Just give us a really fantastic solo adventure, and I’ll be the happiest batfan in the world. In fact, I know they’ve said the films would not be ads for future movies after JL comes out, but I wouldn’t be opposed to using The Batman as a springboard for other Gotham films. Imagine this scenario: a movie that is equal parts Arkham Asylum & Die Hard, and in the last 30 minutes Nightwing & Batgirl arrive to bail Batman out of a jam & spend the last part teaming up to kick ass. That would be pretty cool, but I digress. I just want one badass batfilm with Affleck, without the supers around, and I’d die a happy man. 

Well, at least until Man of Steel 2 came out  :Smile:

----------


## Wandering_Wand

It'd be great if Ben gives us at least one more film. 

JL2 or The Batman. 

Give us one, or the other, and I can be satisfied.

----------


## Lightning Rider

*How ‘Suicide Squad 2’ May Introduce The Rock’s Black Adam (Exclusive)*

https://www.thewrap.com/suicide-squa...exclusive/amp/

----------


## manofsteel1979

Even if Ben steps down as Batman following JL, he still will have played Batman in three movies counting his prominent cameo in SS. That nearly matches Bale and beats out Keaton, Kilmer and Clooney. Not bad Honestly.

I do hope he sticks around for Reeves Batman and JL 2, whatever form it takes. 

I for one don't need a Batman trilogy. We already had one and it was great. Just give me a solid stand alone or two. 

Now Supes...He needs a proper trilogy. I know, MOS, BvS and JL are sort of that, but I wanna see two other solo flicks to pick up some of the plot threads began in MOS.

----------


## BatmanJones

> This is an extremely good point, and his rehab and issues with alcoholism are things I often forget to take into account when pondering the future of Batman. Thank you for the reminder. Let us hope that when the time comes to fight or flight on ‘The Batman’, that he is in a great place to make such a decision. I would be devastated if he left the role this soon, but I would be equally devastated if he did it just because he felt he had to, and turned in a poor performance as a result of his unhappiness.


Thank you for your sensitive reply. I don't think you have to worry about a poor performance. I think you have to worry about whether or not he's in a place to do it at all. If he is, his depression is likely under control. I think I can speak for all depressed people when I say that it's not that we can't do a thing well when depressed, it's that we practically can't do it at all. Or we can, in which case we can do it as well as anyone might be expected to do. Depression doesn't make a person bad at something; it does something worse. It makes it impossible for one to access one's feelings for a thing, in which case I really don't see him returning to the role. I kind of expect his brain will tell him what to do and not the other way around when the time comes. The rehab is very recent and if he has depression (TOTAL SPECULATION on my part) who knows where he's at with dealing with it? Is he in talk therapy or possibly medicated if he needs to be? Has he been in therapy for long enough to know those things? Maybe he's been treated for depression his entire life. Or maybe he doesn't even have it and I'm just seeing things when I look at him and think I recognize depression. I certainly can't say he's depressed with any authority.

If he is experiencing depression this would not be an odd age (Affleck's) to have it set in well enough to need treatment for the first time in which case he could be going through a very heavy thing. It's all speculation.

And those questions are none of our business (any more than any other health questions would be) except that they tell us, I think, that his decision about future Batman movies may be out of his own control. It may seem an impossible task. I've been there. When I couldn't handle a project because of it I had to drop out. If I was up to doing the project at all I was up to doing it well. I don't at ALL mean to seem like I'm 'correcting' you as I don't think you said anything that needs correcting, btw. I'm just giving my experience with it because so many are talking about Batfleck and nobody's talking about depression in all this and when I look at his face in interviews it's the only thing I can possibly think about.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Thank you for your sensitive reply. I don't think you have to worry about a poor performance. I think you have to worry about whether or not he's in a place to do it at all. If he is, his depression is likely under control. I think I can speak for all depressed people when I say that it's not that we can't do a thing well when depressed, it's that we practically can't do it at all. Or we can, in which case we can do it as well as anyone might be expected to do. Depression doesn't make a person bad at something; it does something worse. It makes it impossible for one to access one's feelings for a thing, in which case I really don't see him returning to the role. I kind of expect his brain will tell him what to do and not the other way around when the time comes. The rehab is very recent and if he has depression (TOTAL SPECULATION on my part) who knows where he's at with dealing with it? Is he in talk therapy or possibly medicated if he needs to be? Has he been in therapy for long enough to know those things? Maybe he's been treated for depression his entire life. Or maybe he doesn't even have it and I'm just seeing things when I look at him and think I recognize depression. I certainly can't say he's depressed with any authority.
> 
> And those questions are none of our business (any more than any other health questions would be) except that they tell us, I think, that his decision about future Batman movies may be out of his own control. It may seem an impossible task. I've been there. When I couldn't handle a project because of it I had to drop out. If I was up to doing the project at all I was up to doing it well. I don't at ALL mean to seem like I'm 'correcting' you as I don't think you said anything that needs correcting, btw. I'm just giving my experience with it because so many are talking about Batfleck and nobody's talking about depression in all this and when I look at his face in interviews it's the only thing I can possibly think about.


I am sorry to hear this. Thank you for giving me proper knowledge about depression. I keep hoping that he does Batman as long as he can. His time under the cowl feels short. I feel angry when they keep bringing up his exit. How many times the guy has to clarify the same thing? I did not know about the weight which may possibly be hanging on his shoulders. Let him hang up his cowl when he feels to. He has had two films. Not bad considering the fact that Michael Keaton did two and Adam West did one. Okay Mr. West had a series too. As a fan i want one at least one more film. A last hurrah. If it is one. The only one happy over the work shall not just be the fans. Thank you for sensitizing me about this.

----------


## Jabare



----------


## Lightning Rider

> 


Not totally sure it's supposed to be the same shot or scene but the old one looks far better.

----------


## Jabare

> Not totally sure it's supposed to be the same shot or scene but the old one looks far better.


from the youtube poster:

"Pay attention to these two scenes. They are different. I'm not talking about the CGI costume of Cyborg, yes, it's clear that it's different. I'm talking about the actor Ray Fisher himself, he's different. It can be seen that on the right he gained weight, and the movements and accent of the voice are different, perhaps this is a reshoots. The question is, why? why the transfer and another take? in the first was he too dark? What do you think about it?﻿"

----------


## Serpico Jones

The embargo for JL lifts next Tuesday at 2:50 am eastern. Yikes.

----------


## Frontier

> *How ‘Suicide Squad 2’ May Introduce The Rock’s Black Adam (Exclusive)*
> 
> https://www.thewrap.com/suicide-squa...exclusive/amp/


Why? This feels so random  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## BatmanJones

> The embargo for JL lifts next Tuesday at 2:50 am eastern. Yikes.


Is this sooner than previously announced? New news? Do you have a link?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Is this sooner than previously announced? New news? Do you have a link?


I'm pretty sure it's a bit sooner. That's basically about three days from the release date. Same amount of time as Wonder Woman got. 

There's a rumor circulating that the last round of test screenings have gone very well and that the final version of the film was well-received. If that's so, then I wouldn't be surprised if WB drops the social media embargo sometime very soon, just like they did with Wonder Woman. If they really think the reviewers are going to say mostly nice things, then there's no reason to hold them back from addressing their audiences and saying "Hey! I saw Justice League! It's actually really good! Go see it!"

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Why? This feels so random .


Keep in mind though, the author of that exclusive has a history of reporting extremely-off-the-mark Suicide Squad rumors. 

Here's a handy Twitter compilation of Umberto's Greatest SS Hits. 

Aah, seeing some of those debunked rumors again takes me back to a more innocent time... :P

----------


## kurenai24

> 


What exactly is different ...still looks like a flesh head spiked on a metal skeletal frame.




> from the youtube poster:
> 
> "Pay attention to these two scenes. They are different. I'm not talking about the CGI costume of Cyborg, yes, it's clear that it's different. *I'm talking about the actor Ray Fisher himself, he's different. It can be seen that on the right he gained weight, and the movements and accent of the voice are different, perhaps this is a reshoots.* The question is, why? why the transfer and another take? in the first was he too dark? What do you think about it?﻿"


They see all of that.

----------


## Robotman

> *How ‘Suicide Squad 2’ May Introduce The Rock’s Black Adam (Exclusive)*
> 
> https://www.thewrap.com/suicide-squa...exclusive/amp/


That’s so lame. The flashback in Justice League of the first Apokolips invasion would have been a way better way to introduce him. Show Parademons attacking the ancient world and show Black Adam defending Egypt. Huge missed opportunity.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Thank you for your sensitive reply. I don't think you have to worry about a poor performance. I think you have to worry about whether or not he's in a place to do it at all. If he is, his depression is likely under control. I think I can speak for all depressed people when I say that it's not that we can't do a thing well when depressed, it's that we practically can't do it at all. Or we can, in which case we can do it as well as anyone might be expected to do. Depression doesn't make a person bad at something; it does something worse. It makes it impossible for one to access one's feelings for a thing, in which case I really don't see him returning to the role. I kind of expect his brain will tell him what to do and not the other way around when the time comes. The rehab is very recent and if he has depression (TOTAL SPECULATION on my part) who knows where he's at with dealing with it? Is he in talk therapy or possibly medicated if he needs to be? Has he been in therapy for long enough to know those things? Maybe he's been treated for depression his entire life. Or maybe he doesn't even have it and I'm just seeing things when I look at him and think I recognize depression. I certainly can't say he's depressed with any authority.
> 
> If he is experiencing depression this would not be an odd age (Affleck's) to have it set in well enough to need treatment for the first time in which case he could be going through a very heavy thing. It's all speculation.
> 
> And those questions are none of our business (any more than any other health questions would be) except that they tell us, I think, that his decision about future Batman movies may be out of his own control. It may seem an impossible task. I've been there. When I couldn't handle a project because of it I had to drop out. If I was up to doing the project at all I was up to doing it well. *I don't at ALL mean to seem like I'm 'correcting' you as I don't think you said anything that needs correcting, btw.* I'm just giving my experience with it because so many are talking about Batfleck and nobody's talking about depression in all this and when I look at his face in interviews it's the only thing I can possibly think about.


Nope, I didn’t take it that way at all. It’s always good to be educated on a subject, and unfortunately depression is not something I have a lot of knowledge about. I just hope this is a case of him being tired, and waiting out reviews...his brand has soared in Hollywood since ‘Gone Baby Gone’, and the last thing his career needs is another critical hit like BvS. He has more to lose on JL than the others, so hopefully if critics like JL he will be more open to discussing future appearances. 




> Why? This feels so random .


Feels like a very loose adaptation of Suicide Squad Rebirth, with Black Adam perhaps taking the place of General Zod.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I'm pretty sure it's a bit sooner. That's basically about three days from the release date. Same amount of time as Wonder Woman got. 
> 
> There's a rumor circulating that the last round of test screenings have gone very well and that the final version of the film was well-received. If that's so, then I wouldn't be surprised if WB drops the social media embargo sometime very soon, just like they did with Wonder Woman. If they really think the reviewers are going to say mostly nice things, then there's no reason to hold them back from addressing their audiences and saying "Hey! I saw Justice League! It's actually really good! Go see it!"


That's really big and exciting news! Thanks for sharing. Do you have a link to a story announcing the new embargo date?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Here's a thought about Ben Affleck and his tenure as Batman and how they could potentially do it if it indeed comes down to Ben leaving the role.
> 
> What if the reason Flashpoint comes out before The Batman is that in Flashpoint (if that is the sequence of the film's being released), a younger version of Bruce is brought into the DCEU and the timelines get merged. But since this would be a younger version of Batman, events in his backstory would get confusing if they happened or didn't happen, like Jason Todd's murder. So after Flashpoint brings in the younger Bruce, Matt Reeve's Batman films fully tell the story of Batman's beginnings and continue the DCEU Batman tales post backstory, like in parts 2 and 3. 
> 
> Make sense? If Affleck is really leaving, I hope they do it this way and it would also explain why they never have fully committed to him being in Reeves' film.


Or, maybe he dies at the end of JL, and the first solo Batman is actually a flashback story detailing his relationship with the Robins. That could set up Nightwing, which sets up Nightwing to take up the mantle.

No need for a damn de-aged Bruce, which is just unnecessary.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Or, maybe he dies at the end of JL, and the first solo Batman is actually a flashback story detailing his relationship with the Robins. That could set up Nightwing, which sets up Nightwing to take up the mantle.
> 
> No need for a damn de-aged Bruce, which is just unnecessary.


That would mean we get just a handful of lines between Superman and Bruce in this cinematic universe as allies. Or at all. What you described "works" but it would be profoundly unsatisfying.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That would mean we get just a handful of lines between Superman and Bruce in this cinematic universe as allies. Or at all. What you described "works" but it would be profoundly unsatisfying.


Not if the interaction in JL is really good. This would also be a great way to establish legit stakes in the DCFU. It'd be interesting to see a JL2, in which Dick is Batman because Bruce died on the job.

Watching Ragnarok made it more apparent that, besides spinoffs, there's literally no stakes that matter in thsee comic book movies.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> That's really big and exciting news! Thanks for sharing. Do you have a link to a story announcing the new embargo date?


"Email I just received tells me the JUSTICE LEAGUE review embargo is up at 1:50AM CST on November 15th. That's, uh, a weirdly specific time."
https://twitter.com/ScottWamplerBMD/...54352327708672

----------


## Black_Adam

People seem to be confusing the embargos of which there two. The review embargo lifts on the 15th this is standard procedure from WB and almost never changes regardless of whether they think the movie is good or bad.

Social Media embargo however WB will lift early if they feel critics are going to say good things about the movie, case in point WB lifted the social media embargo for Wonder Woman nearly 2 weeks before release. So general line of thought seems to be if WB doesn't lift the social media embargo for Justice League at latest by this weekend, it could be they think it's going to be another BvS/SS critically.

----------


## Frontier

> Feels like a very loose adaptation of Suicide Squad Rebirth, with Black Adam perhaps taking the place of General Zod.


That's not reassuring...



> Or, maybe he dies at the end of JL, and the first solo Batman is actually a flashback story detailing his relationship with the Robins. That could set up Nightwing, which sets up Nightwing to take up the mantle.
> 
> No need for a damn de-aged Bruce, which is just unnecessary.


I doubt we're going to get a Justice League movie where one of the League ends up dead, especially in the same movie where Superman makes a big comeback.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> That's not reassuring...
> 
> I doubt we're going to get a Justice League movie where one of the League ends up dead, especially in the same movie where Superman makes a big comeback.


I actually just meant the general idea of the SS having to locate a superman-level villain...I absolutely agree that they should not adapt that actual story lol I still just want to see a SS black ops movie with no world ending threats. 

I also agree they won’t kill Bruce off in JL. I would rather just see them recast if Ben walks, and they could even use Flashpoint to do it. Flash could quip “Did you change your hair or something?”, and just leave it up to timeline shenanigans. After Barry fixes the timeline, Bruce looks different, no big deal (as long as he isn’t deaged, ruining continuity). It’s not ideal, but it’s an easy out & a little joke is a wink to the audience that says “yep, new Batman, but at least you know why.”

----------


## Confuzzled

> Why?




Rock + Fresh Prince + Harley Margot Robbie could bring back the Fast and Furious crowds that the first Skwad movie appealed to more than other comic book movies. Maybe they could rope in Jason Statham as Count Vertigo too  :Stick Out Tongue:  That would be a fun take on the character (_Spy_ shows Statham's great comic timing as well).




> That’s so lame. The flashback in Justice League of the first Apokolips invasion would have been a way better way to introduce him. Show Parademons attacking the ancient world and show Black Adam defending Egypt. Huge missed opportunity.


Why waste your Dwayne Johnson DCEU intro in just a flashback of a movie that most people are going to watch anyway? Might as well introduce him in a film that needs it more. Tracking down and trying to capture Black Adam is a simple and fun gimmick as opposed to Waller Mission 2 being the rectification of Waller Mission 1 awkward and needlessly complicated plot of the first Suicide Squad.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> That's not reassuring...
> 
> I doubt we're going to get a Justice League movie where one of the League ends up dead, especially in the same movie where Superman makes a big comeback.


Yeah, Batman isn't dying in JL. If the theme of the film is hope, I doubt they'll kill off one of the Trinity right after bringing Supes back.

If Ben decides to leave, they'll just recast.The general audience is used to a change up every couple movies, Particularly Batman. Pick a good actor and they'll accept it.

----------


## Frontier

> Why waste your Dwayne Johnson DCEU intro in just a flashback of a movie that most people are going to watch anyway? Might as well introduce him in a film that needs it more. Tracking down and trying to capture Black Adam is a simple and fun gimmick as opposed to Waller Mission 2 being the rectification of Waller Mission 1 awkward and needlessly complicated plot of the first Suicide Squad.


Or we could just have the Suicide Squad do actual espionage and cover ops stuff rather then have them go up against an opponent they are in no way qualified to take out  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I get now wanting to have to juggle Billy and Adam in the Shazam solo movie but _Suicide Squad 2_ doesn't feel like a better place to introduce Black Adam.

----------


## Calvinr

> People seem to be confusing the embargos of which there two. The review embargo lifts on the 15th this is standard procedure from WB and almost never changes regardless of whether they think the movie is good or bad.
> 
> Social Media embargo however WB will lift early if they feel critics are going to say good things about the movie, case in point WB lifted the social media embargo for Wonder Woman nearly 2 weeks before release. So general line of thought seems to be if WB doesn't lift the social media embargo for Justice League at latest by this weekend, it could be they think it's going to be another BvS/SS critically.


That sounds right tbf, I really hope it gets good reviews, or will critics pan it regardless if its seen as good/very good amongs viewers just because it’s still technically a Snyder film, and critics don’t tend to like Snyder.

I’m also really interested to see what Joss Whedon added/removed, or is it more of a ‘smoothing over the edges’ scenario?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Rock + Fresh Prince + Harley Margot Robbie could bring back the Fast and Furious crowds that the first Skwad movie appealed to more than other comic book movies. Maybe they could rope in Jason Statham as Count Vertigo too  That would be a fun take on the character (_Spy_ shows Statham's great comic timing as well).
> 
> 
> 
> Why waste your Dwayne Johnson DCEU intro in just a flashback of a movie that most people are going to watch anyway? Might as well introduce him in a film that needs it more. Tracking down and trying to capture Black Adam is a simple and fun gimmick as opposed to Waller Mission 2 being the rectification of Waller Mission 1 awkward and needlessly complicated plot of the first Suicide Squad.


What was complicated about the plot of Suicide Squad? I see people say this, but I don’t know what it means. Do the people who say this really have a hard time following what’s going on?

----------


## gbshabo

Black Adam was in John Ostrander Suicide Squad. Very happy to see him reappear in this way. Sometimes the suicide squad was at their best when sent to take down a metahuman

----------


## gbshabo

> That sounds right tbf, I really hope it gets good reviews, or will critics pan it regardless if its seen as good/very good amongs viewers just because it’s still technically a Snyder film, and critics don’t tend to like Snyder.
> 
> I’m also really interested to see what Joss Whedon added/removed, or is it more of a ‘smoothing over the edges’ scenario?


They also seem to be keeping the whole Superman reveal very close to the vest. They may be reluctant to move up the social media embargo because of spoilers

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Not if the interaction in JL is really good. This would also be a great way to establish legit stakes in the DCFU. It'd be interesting to see a JL2, in which Dick is Batman because Bruce died on the job.
> 
> Watching Ragnarok made it more apparent that, besides spinoffs, there's literally no stakes that matter in thsee comic book movies.


That's true, good point, I just don't think Superman's screen-time would allow for much dialogue between the two, and if there's a death at the end, then no casual non-crisis talk either. No real friendship to develop outside of the battlefield. I'm totally with you on there not being stakes anymore which sucks and I wouldn't be against seeing Dick in the cowl, I just want a little more time for the characters to breathe with each other. Dying at the end of JL 2 or something would be preferable.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> They also seem to be keeping the whole Superman reveal very close to the vest. They may be reluctant to move up the social media embargo because of spoilers


I could totally see that. The ending also seems to have been changed if I remember reading old reports right and it's probably one that "matters" going forward.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> They also seem to be keeping the whole Superman reveal very close to the vest. They may be reluctant to move up the social media embargo because of spoilers


That and the whole twitter fiasco of increased characters.

A week to go guys!!!

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

So this is pretty crazy. Apparently Trump is trying to kill the AT&T purchase of Time Warner as a means of trying to kill CNN. For the sake of this thread, this could leave the DCEU in developmental purgatory, as many of the “announced” DCEU films were made to make Time Warner look more attractive to AT&T and would be up to them to actually make. I think this leaves Deathstroke, Nightwing, Black Adam solo, Gotham City Sirens and everything else that isn’t Shazam, The Batman and WW2 in limbo.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/08/re...f-cnn-is-sold/

----------


## adrikito

Post-JUSTICE LEAGUE DC Films Won't Have to 'All Fit into the Same Universe', With 2018 Described as a 'Reset Year'

https://www.newsarama.com/37270-post...-universe.html

Batman movie without Affleck, sure..

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Post-JUSTICE LEAGUE DC Films Won't Have to 'All Fit into the Same Universe', With 2018 Described as a 'Reset Year'
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/37270-post...-universe.html
> 
> Batman movie without Affleck, sure..


Terrible article! They took Emmerich ‘s quote from the Wall Street Journal article a couple days ago and built a “reboot” narrative around it.

----------


## BatmanJones

> "Email I just received tells me the JUSTICE LEAGUE review embargo is up at 1:50AM CST on November 15th. That's, uh, a weirdly specific time."
> https://twitter.com/ScottWamplerBMD/...54352327708672


THANKS! What an excellent sign!

----------


## Clark_Kent

New (non spoiler) interview with Danny Elfman. For those like me who were not thrilled with bringing back the Batman 89 theme (or the Williams Superman theme), he says “there’s maybe one moment of Batman 89 in there”. Also, a peek at how he incorporated the Williams theme: 

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/11...?sf154761251=1

----------


## Clark_Kent

Heres the track mentioned:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> THANKS! What an excellent sign!


I am not sure but are you be sarcastic here with your posts?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Terrible article! They took Emmerich ‘s quote from the Wall Street Journal article a couple days ago and built a “reboot” narrative around it.


Unsurprising. Also apparently that Mashable article about JL getting 33% on RT mentioned that Snyder was forced to hand JL over, for stupidity like that, Snyder felt he had to make the news about his daughter public. Truly sad man.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I am not sure but are you be sarcastic here with your posts?


No, I'm not. It sounds to me like the critic embargo is being lifted earlier than they'd previously said. I read that as a vote of confidence even if it didn't get the radical change to the embargo that WW did. We've been told again and again that if the embargo lifts early (this is earlier than we were told only 24 hours ago) it will be based on good reaction to fan screenings and general buzz. And they did lift it early. Not by a lot, but by some. That seems to me like unambiguously good news.

----------


## gbshabo

So it looks like the social media embargo will be lifted tomorrow. We should start getting info soon on the Justice League movie. If the Embargo is lifted tomorrow seems like a good sign.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So it looks like the social media embargo will be lifted tomorrow. We should start getting info soon on the Justice League movie. If the Embargo is lifted tomorrow seems like a good sign.


A very good sign! That's at least a week early. WB must be certain that the reviews will be mostly positive. If there were any doubt, then they'd be setting the movie up for over a WEEK of bad word-of-mouth. That would freaking KILL the movie's box office for sure. 

Nope. I think we can all officially breathe easy, folks. Looks like we've got a live one here!  :Big Grin:

----------


## reni344

I really hope Justice Leauge is good I did not enjoy Thor Ragnorok it was far too jokey for its own good. Funny moments are fine I think you need them but they become a detriment when they step all over the moments that give the movie stakes and depth.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> So it looks like the social media embargo will be lifted tomorrow. We should start getting info soon on the Justice League movie. If the Embargo is lifted tomorrow seems like a good sign.


Do you have the source of this? The VP of media at Regal Cinemas was asked about this on Twitter and he said he hadn't heard anything about the embargo lifting yet.

Jeremy Conrad, one of the press folks who was among the first to call the film's runtime, also says in response to the Q that he hasn't heard anything about the embargo lifting but has heard good things.

----------


## gbshabo

> A very good sign! That's at least a week early. WB must be certain that the reviews will be mostly positive. If there were any doubt, then they'd be setting the movie up for over a WEEK of bad word-of-mouth. That would freaking KILL the movie's box office for sure. 
> 
> Nope. I think we can all officially breathe easy, folks. Looks like we've got a live one here!


just to clarify. this the social media embargo, not the critical review embargo. that remains november 15th

----------


## Clark_Kent

> just to clarify. this the social media embargo, not the critical review embargo. that remains november 15th


Could someone explain the difference between social media embargoes & critic embargoes? I dont know what this is, unfortunately.

Edit: I mean, I know what it means for critics, but I have no clue what the other is lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Could someone explain the difference between social media embargoes & critic embargoes? I don’t know what this is, unfortunately.


The social media embargo prevents reviewers from even talking about the movie on social media. They're not even supposed to say "I saw Justice League. It was good." on social media until the embargo lifts.

The critic embargo prevents reviewers from posting their full reviews of the film (which often contain spoilers) until a certain time. The lifting of the critic embargo is also when the Rotten Tomatoes score comes into play as critics post their reviews there. 

In the past, the social media embargo gets lifted early. Reviewers can't give their full reviews, but they're allowed to give their opinion on the movie in order to build up hype. Obviously, a studio isn't going to lift the social media embargo for a film if they think there's ANY chance that the reviewers are going to scream "This movie SUCKS! Don't see it!" the second they have the right to do so. 

The best example of the social media embargo being lifted early is Wonder Woman. The social media embargo was lifted about a week before the release date because WB was convinced that the reviewers were going to give it a good review. They were right. Reviewers weren't able to give their full reviews until about three days before the release date, but they were able to give their opinion of the movie on social media. So for about a week, you've got a ton of reviewers saying "Wonder Woman is SO good!" on social media? Yeah, that helped. A lot. 

So in short? Social media lets the reviewers state their opinions to their followers but not their full reviews. Critic embargo means everyone who has seen the movie is now free to talk about the movie any way they like, pretty much.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The social media embargo prevents reviewers from even talking about the movie on social media. They're not even supposed to say "I saw Justice League. It was good." on social media until the embargo lifts.
> 
> The critic embargo prevents reviewers from posting their full reviews of the film (which often contain spoilers) until a certain time. The lifting of the critic embargo is also when the Rotten Tomatoes score comes into play as critics post their reviews there. 
> 
> In the past, the social media embargo gets lifted early. Reviewers can't give their full reviews, but they're allowed to give their opinion on the movie in order to build up hype. Obviously, a studio isn't going to lift the social media embargo for a film if they think there's ANY chance that the reviewers are going to scream "This movie SUCKS! Don't see it!" the second they have the right to do so. 
> 
> The best example of the social media embargo being lifted early is Wonder Woman. The social media embargo was lifted about a week before the release date because WB was convinced that the reviewers were going to give it a good review. They were right. Reviewers weren't able to give their full reviews until about three days before the release date, but they were able to give their opinion of the movie on social media. So for about a week, you've got a ton of reviewers saying "Wonder Woman is SO good!" on social media? Yeah, that helped. A lot. 
> 
> So in short? Social media lets the reviewers state their opinions to their followers but not their full reviews. Critic embargo means everyone who has seen the movie is now free to talk about the movie any way they like, pretty much.


Gotcha, thank you. I thought saying things on SM like “it was good! Review coming after embargo” was covered under the general critic embargo, not realizing that it was 2 different things. “The more you know”, as they say. 

Thanks!

----------


## Clark_Kent

By the way, did anyone listen to that piece I posted from the soundtrack? Very interesting way to incorporate things, I thought.

----------


## Styles

Damn I hope this isn't true.

RIP DCEU: Bendis On Board Justice League Movies

----------


## reni344

I don't see that as being such a bad thing fact is Marvel's movies have been better than DC's and most of what has been adapted is from Bendis a lot of what we have seen is taken from the Ultimate Universe also Bendis has contacts in Hollywood which would help get the movies made. It's not like DC is making smash hits they need all the help they can get.

----------


## Johnny

> Damn I hope this isn't true.
> 
> RIP DCEU: Bendis On Board Justice League Movies


If it's true, I don't think this is a big deal. Bendis being "part of the movie table" and pitching story ideas isn't the same as actually making those decisions, which is what Johns and Berg are doing, which then has to be approved by their own higher ups. Besides, BMB hasn't actually written anything for DC yet, so it's not like they could use his material as the basis for a movie story, like the MCU did before. For all intents and purposes, Bendis is "the new kid" here, so he won't have the same power Johns has, again, if the report is indeed true.

Besides the article is very hyperbolic. Not everything Bendis has done is "PC garbage".

----------


## Frontier

This all makes me really curious to know where Bendis' vision and passion for the DCU lie  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> **NOT OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED**
> 
> But keep your eye on social media tomorrow at 9:00am.


https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/928433793198727168

The mystery deepens :P

----------


## kurenai24

> Damn I hope this isn't true.
> 
> RIP DCEU: Bendis On Board Justice League Movies


How is this a bad thing when Bendis was getting marvel movie money before when he used to pitch ideas for the mcu, he was consulted on Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, he works with Sony on the animated Miles Morales movie. People's issues with Bendis have been blown out proportion to the point it's a meme of itself and more importantly has blinded people to the creative influence Bendis has had and still has, if anything the DC/WB need to throw their whole roundtable of people in the trash anyway and start DCEU afresh with the Flashpoint storyline they want to do so badly.

As for the article itself, Bleeding Cool speculating on the situation shouldn't be used as a fact, the person who wrote this has issues I don't even want touch on right now, but more than that, stating something as fact when it's not i.e falsely giving information can lead to legal trouble with companies which makes it even more obvious the writer doesn't even know basic journalism, and if they don't know that, why would I think they actually know how to report on something correctly while using facts.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/928433793198727168
> 
> The mystery deepens :P


PST though.... It's like 2am. 7hours to go lol

----------


## mace11

I read some interesting stuff here.
 Re: I feel like DC still doesn't know what they're doing  
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...533499&page=18

----------


## Thomas Crown

> Im also really interested to see what Joss Whedon added/removed, or is it more of a smoothing over the edges scenario?


IF there's any truth to recent rumors, Whedon cut A LOT of Zack's footage, following a Warner Bros' mandate to keep the movie under two hours, and added some scenes to fill in the gaps in the narrative.

And according to some people here, it's totally okay a studio do something like that to a director's work, as long as it's Zack Snyder.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Ahh so there's one more major screening tonight which is why WB haven't lifted it. Probably waiting on reactions to that before making a final decision. Look what happened with FOX and Xmen:Apocalypse .

----------


## Carabas

> IF there's any truth to recent rumors, Whedon cut A LOT of Zack's footage, following a Warner Bros' mandate to keep the movie under two hours, and added some scenes to fill in the gaps in the narrative.
> 
> And according to some people here, it's totally okay a studio do something like that to a director's work, as long as it's Zack Snyder.


Yes, when a director decides not to finish a move then it is entirely okay for the people that OWN the movie to get another director who can do whatever he wants with it.

----------


## nightw1ng

The WB's lack of confidence in Justice League is worrying. Wonder Woman's social media embargo was 2 weeks before release. Justice League's is scheduled for only 1 day before, and they still need to screen it for more critics before deciding if they want to move it up.

This is starting to remind me of Fantastic Four. The studio mandates, the melding of tones from very different directors, the massive reshoots. It's also what has me apprehensive about the Han Solo film.

----------


## Jokerz79

Now I have complained about how WB hacked apart BvS and Suicide Squad and I think cutting Justice League is also a mistake to shorten run time. But it's totally in their right when you sign up for a film like this you're a hired gun if lucky the Studio will let the director put their own touches onto the project like James Gunn or Taika Waititi at Marvel Studios or even Snyder or Nolan at the WB. But you are a hired gun so no matter DCEU, MCU, Fox X-Films, or Lucasfilm when the studio is building a larger shared universe the individual directors have to understand their visions and story come second to the vision and story for the overall shared universe.

----------


## Bukdiah

> The WB's lack of confidence in Justice League is worrying. Wonder Woman's social media embargo was 2 weeks before release. Justice League's is scheduled for only 1 day before, and they still need to screen it for more critics before deciding if they want to move it up.
> 
> This is starting to remind me of Fantastic Four. The studio mandates, the melding of tones from very different directors, the massive reshoots. It's also what has me apprehensive about the Han Solo film.


Honestly, I haven't fretted about embargo this, embargo that in quite some time. Just watch the movie if you wish and form an opinion about it afterwards. I usually do that with everything and then read reviews or check ratings to see if I'm in the minority or majority in my opinion of the movie. Also to see if things I thought were problems: others thought as well.

----------


## nightbird

https://open.spotify.com/album/6khOk...TZay4_3GK409wA

full ost.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> The WB's lack of confidence in Justice League is worrying. Wonder Woman's social media embargo was 2 weeks before release. Justice League's is scheduled for only 1 day before, and they still need to screen it for more critics before deciding if they want to move it up.
> 
> This is starting to remind me of Fantastic Four. The studio mandates, the melding of tones from very different directors, the massive reshoots. It's also what has me apprehensive about the Han Solo film.


Agreed. I think we all know what the conclusion is going to be.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Social media embargo for JUSTICE LEAGUE is now scheduled to lift TOMORROW at 9am PT. Official review embargo stays the same. Drew & myself haven't even seen it yet, so this makes no difference to us, just a hand-picked group of comics-loving bloggers.


https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...95155724398592

Dunno what this guy's creds are, but he does have a check-mark...

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...95155724398592
> 
> Dunno what this guy's creds are, but he does have a check-mark...


What was that about a "lack of confidence," again?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Thomas Crown



----------


## Jokerz79

> What was that about a "lack of confidence," again?


Social Media means nothing to me personally Fan4Stick got praise on Social Media after it's screening. I personally worry though when there is a review embargo.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...95155724398592
> 
> Dunno what this guy's creds are, but he does have a check-mark...


Former film reporter at The Wrap, he currently runs the Tracking Board.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Social Media means nothing to me personally Fan4Stick got praise on Social Media after it's screening. I personally worry though when there is a review embargo.


Review embargoes are SOP for big blockbusters. Even Marvel uses them. 

Dropping the social media embargo is giving people a full week to deal a crushing blow to any hype this movie may have. 

It's far more dangerous if they kept both embargoes in place right up until opening night.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Social Media means nothing to me personally Fan4Stick got praise on Social Media after it's screening. I personally worry though when there is a review embargo.


This is different, this is actual controlled embargo, and WB are giving people free reign to talk about the film on social.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...95155724398592
> 
> Dunno what this guy's creds are, but he does have a check-mark...


A WB China employee also confirmed that earlier today. 

WB are simply playing JL close to the chest, spoilers and all that, WB allowing earlier reactions to WW was out of character but was necessary plus the film was pretty self contained that isn't the case for JL.  Their reviews almost usually are like a few days before but the fact they're even allowing social at all is a very good thing.

----------


## nightw1ng

> https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...95155724398592
> 
> Dunno what this guy's creds are, but he does have a check-mark...


If true, this is at least a better sign.  While not being able to post full reviews, I believe critics are allowed to share their brief opinion on the movie when the social media embargo is lifted.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> If true, this is at least a better sign.  While not being able to post full reviews, I believe critics are allowed to share their brief opinion on the movie when the social media embargo is lifted.


Yeah they can't talk about plot points or spoilers. So essentially telling us whether their reviews are gonna be positive or negative.

----------


## Lightning Rider

This is a complete off-topic post that you need not acknowledge, but if they ever dared to make a DCEU-MCU crossover film it would break the movie industry. It would be this huge unavoidable gargantuan moneymaker guaranteed to break all sorts of records. It may not happen anytime soon, but the concept just has to be exploited down the line, so long as superhero fatigue doesn't happen abruptly. This might be the event that would usher such a thing. It's like the final frontier of blockbuster movie-making.

----------


## Buried Alien

> This is a complete off-topic post that you need not acknowledge, but if they ever dared to make a DCEU-MCU crossover film it would break the movie industry. It would be this huge unavoidable gargantuan moneymaker guaranteed to break all sorts of records. It may not happen anytime soon, but the concept just has to be exploited down the line, so long as superhero fatigue doesn't happen abruptly. This might be the event that would usher such a thing. It's like the final frontier of blockbuster movie-making.


Imagine adapting JLA/AVENGERS for film.

Just *casting* that film would be a nightmare.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Serpico Jones

It should be noted that Jeff Sneider has been fired from multiple jobs for unprofessional behavior and also has a deep hatred for comic book movies. He’s also currently having a meltdown on twitter.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It should be noted that Jeff Sneider has been fired from multiple jobs for unprofessional behavior and also has a deep hatred for comic book movies. He’s also currently having a meltdown on twitter.


Not surprising I could tell the way he added sarc in his post about not seeing the film yet, yet "comic lovin bloggers have". Yeash salt much?

----------


## Bukdiah

Aw, yeah! Adapting DC vs Marvel event from Amalgam Comics, right?!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Frontier

> This is a complete off-topic post that you need not acknowledge, but if they ever dared to make a DCEU-MCU crossover film it would break the movie industry. It would be this huge unavoidable gargantuan moneymaker guaranteed to break all sorts of records. It may not happen anytime soon, but the concept just has to be exploited down the line, so long as superhero fatigue doesn't happen abruptly. This might be the event that would usher such a thing. It's like the final frontier of blockbuster movie-making.


It would also probably be enough to bring back the older Avengers actors once they bow out after _Infinity War_.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It would also probably be enough to bring back the older Avengers actors once they bow out after _Infinity War_.


Yep. I think there's a decent chance everyone would be willing to reprise roles as a kind of fun reunion. I think Evans/RDJ and Cavill and Batfleck/Gadot would be leading the teams in terms of first encounters and leadership.

----------


## nightbird

> It should be noted that Jeff Sneider has been fired from multiple jobs for unprofessional behavior and also has a deep hatred for comic book movies. He’s also currently having a meltdown on twitter.


It's kinda entertaining though.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

On a side note, the entire JL soundtrack will be available to stream on Spotify tomorrow. (I think it's already live in timezones that are in the 10th  - where I am, I only have access to the two tracks that have already been released + trailer music)

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yep. I think there's a decent chance everyone would be willing to reprise roles as a kind of fun reunion. I think Evans/RDJ and Cavill and Batfleck/Gadot would be leading the teams in terms of first encounters and leadership.


In this scenario (that I would die to see btw!), I wonder which studio would be the one to stonewall a proposition like this? Surely it would be Disney who refuses...I could absolutely see WB willing to negotiate a crossover deal long before Disney would. I know they worked out deals to do the Spider-Man stuff with Sony, but that was a Marvel character. Considering how stingy Disney can be, and their ludicrous demands on theaters (see: The Last Jedi), I wonder just how bad WB would have to eat things for such a deal to be done. WB played well with Fox over Watchmen, if I recall. 

I’d love to see it though. Superman vs Hulk? Bring it on!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah they can't talk about plot points or spoilers. So essentially telling us whether their reviews are gonna be positive or negative.


Sometimes they can be explicit enough that you can really predict how good or bad the review would be. Grace Randolph's tweet about Wonder Woman read something like "The Wonder Woman movie was not just one of the best comic book movies I've ever seen, it was one of the best MOVIES I've ever seen." 

You knew right from the start that her review was going to be GLOWING when it finally dropped. 




> This is a complete off-topic post that you need not acknowledge, but if they ever dared to make a DCEU-MCU crossover film it would break the movie industry. It would be this huge unavoidable gargantuan moneymaker guaranteed to break all sorts of records. It may not happen anytime soon, but the concept just has to be exploited down the line, so long as superhero fatigue doesn't happen abruptly. This might be the event that would usher such a thing. It's like the final frontier of blockbuster movie-making.


It would be amazing, but dear God! It would be a logistical NIGHTMARE to pull off. WB and Disney would need a small army of lawyers to hash out all the details about who pays for what, who gets what cut of the box office, who markets what, etc. 

I'd love to see them do it, but I can't imagine how they could ever do it.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Imagine adapting JLA/AVENGERS for film.
> 
> Just *casting* that film would be a nightmare.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I'd say it's a logistical impossibility, considering how you'd need to pay about 20 star actors their going rate + split the profits evenly between two studios.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I'd say it's a logistical impossibility, considering how you'd need to pay about 20 star actors their going rate + split the profits evenly between two studios.


So it basically only happens if Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates REALLY wants to see this film made, and is willing to donate a substantial part of his fortune into financing it, allowing Disney/Marvel and WB/DC to keep 100% of whatever revenue the film brings in.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Frontier

> 


Ray Fisher in his mo-cap suit  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Soubhagya

> 


Its a nice photo. Thank you for sharing this.   :Smile: 

At the same time i can't help but imagine what's going on in Ray Fisher's mind. Others are wearing the costumes but he does not. Kind of a bummer if i am playing Cyborg. Don't know what he would be thinking. Perhaps, its cooler without costume. You play Cyborg and you can move freely. I heard Aquaman costume is heavy. No matter how strong you are it must feel somewhat uncomfortable. But that's me speculating. Can't wait to see the film. I can't stress this less. I can't believe i am getting to see Justice League in my lifetime! This is the coolest thing ever!!! The only thing cooler might be that i was in one of those costumes.

----------


## Robotman

I know Gals boots have wedges to make her look taller but shes still pretty damn tall on her own. Look at her compared to poor little Geoff Johns.

Plus shes almost the same height as Jason Momoa. I met him at a comic con last year. The guy is huge.

----------


## Stick Figure

Batman looks like a beast in that pic!!!   Love it!!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

The entire soundtrack is now available for listening on Youtube and Spotify.

----------


## Lexembert

Like the pic. 

Yeah Gal Gadot is tall. Especially If you compare her to Geoff's height.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari

----------


## Robotman

> The entire soundtrack is now available for listening on Youtube and Spotify.


“The Story of Steppenwolf” sounds amazing. I’m just picturing some of the New Gods mythology up on the big screen with this music playing and it gives me goosebumps.

----------


## Robotman

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


Well at least he didn’t say it was a train wreck. Still pretty depressing. Sounds like our concern that WB once again cut way too much may be true.

----------


## Outside_85

> Like the pic. 
> 
> Yeah Gal Gadot is tall. Especially If you compare her to Geoff's height.


Geoff actually looks pretty short compared to everyone else in that shot.

----------


## nightbird

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


"humor" ... as always.

----------


## Carabas

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


Any spoilerific track titles?

I became wary of soundtracks after "Qui-Gon's funeral" on The Phantom Menace.

----------


## Bossace

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari



this makes me a bit worried but won’t stop me from seeing it. I Can’t say im surpised at the lack of character development given thr under 2 hour mark and what all they needed to accomplish.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Any spoilerific track titles?
> 
> I became wary of soundtracks after "Qui-Gon's funeral" on The Phantom Menace.


Nothing explicitly spoilery, but if you look at some track titles, you can make a pretty decent guess as to what happens and how the movie flows.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

The soundtrack is good. Haven't listened to it all but thank god for Elfman saving us from Junkie.

----------


## Robotman

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


Even though it’s not a positive review it’s also not horrible. It sounds like WB played it very safe. Which is what a lot of people were expecting. They weren’t trying to break new ground with Justice League. They just needed something passable that will keep this money train moving. I’m expecting a paint by numbers superhero movie but hoping that it’s at least fun and includes some good fanboy moments.

----------


## blaster86

Just heard Elfman JL ost and my god it is generic and lazy.

----------


## Outside_85

> Just heard Elfman JL ost and my god it is generic and lazy.


Got the same impression from the 2 tracks I've heard.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


Again I must question the veracity here?

If this guy is legit, then he just broke the review embargo and should basically be persona non grata in future movie premiers. 

I know it's a non-spoiler review, but I also see very little in terms of discussion of specific details. Saying "Wonder Woman was great" is a pretty safe guess. She was great in her last two appearances, after all. Saying "Aquaman was fun" is also a safe assumption since he's looked fun in all the trailers.

I dunno. I have doubts here.

----------


## adrikito

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


... I will take the HUMOR of that film as something good..

Seems that Jason Momoa is a great Aquaman.. Fortunatelly the Aquaman movie is complete..




> Damn I hope this isn't true.
> 
> RIP DCEU: Bendis On Board Justice League Movies


NO..... He again...  :Mad:  This man is going to get worse his bad reputation between the fans... and ruin the next DC movies.

----------


## nightrider

> Just heard Elfman JL ost and my god it is generic and lazy.


i dont know.......... http://www.nojusticewithouthope.com/ that single track is better than most of the stuff i heard in JL ost by Elfman

----------


## dianafan1985

> JL review (no spoilers): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari


well at least diana came through... according to him.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Again I must question the veracity here?


The review is written by Kim Holcomb that saw the movie at the London press screening before interviewing the full cast. She's the blonde woman in the video below.  :Wink: 







> If this guy is legit, then he just broke the review embargo and should basically be persona non grata in future movie premiers.


She took it down, the link I posted is from Google's cache.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Along with excessive humor, the lack of depth is what I was worried about. I want good character moments and conversations. I hope we get them.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Again I must question the veracity here?
> 
> If this guy is legit, then he just broke the review embargo and should basically be persona non grata in future movie premiers. 
> 
> I know it's a non-spoiler review, but I also see very little in terms of discussion of specific details. Saying "Wonder Woman was great" is a pretty safe guess. She was great in her last two appearances, after all. Saying "Aquaman was fun" is also a safe assumption since he's looked fun in all the trailers.
> 
> I dunno. I have doubts here.


She is a legit reviewer and was at the London screening. Her opinion is valid since it's her opinion. I think her line that sums up the movie, "My review for Justice League? It felt like someone set a really nice table but didn't serve any dinner," is pretty much in line with what a lot of people feel about Zack Snyder movies. I'm not saying I completely agree. However, I do think Cavill was onto something when he referred to BvS as a niche film. I think what he really meant was that Snyder has a niche style. Most people aren't going to know that dinner was right there for them to eat, or disagree it was edible. A smaller amount of people (thus making it niche), will recognize the dinner and like the food. 

This in essence, is what makes Snyder a difficult director to give the MOS, BvS, and JL jobs to. On one hand, he has a visual style that's pretty much better and more unique than anyone, and he seems to really be endlessly intrigued by the characters we know and love. On the other hand, his own way of conveying his understanding of them through storytelling only seems to find a niche audience. The critical backlash of MOS and BvS was never Zack's fault, imo. It was always Warner's fault. Zack is who he is. And if Warner's didn't want that then they had numerous chances to avoid or course correct.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> She is a legit reviewer and was at the London screening. Her opinion is valid since it's her opinion. I think her line that sums up the movie, "My review for Justice League? It felt like someone set a really nice table but didn't serve any dinner," is pretty much in line with what a lot of people feel about Zack Snyder movies. I'm not saying I completely agree. However, I do think Cavill was onto something when he referred to BvS as a niche film. I think what he really meant was that Snyder has a niche style. Most people aren't going to know that dinner was right there for them to eat, or disagree it was edible. A smaller amount of people (thus making it niche), will recognize the dinner and like the food. 
> 
> This in essence, is what makes Snyder a difficult director to give the MOS, BvS, and JL jobs to. On one hand, he has a visual style that's pretty much better and more unique than anyone, and he seems to really be endlessly intrigued by the characters we know and love. On the other hand, his own way of conveying his understanding of them through storytelling only seems to find a niche audience. The critical backlash of MOS and BvS was never Zack's fault, imo. It was always Warner's fault. Zack is who he is. And if Warner's didn't want that then they had numerous chances to avoid or course correct.


Fair post.

----------


## Carabas

> Just heard Elfman JL ost and my god it is generic and lazy.


It has almost become synonymous with the name Danny Elfman.

I did like the eery Leonard Cohen cover by somebody named Sigrid though.

----------


## adrikito

*
JUSTICE LEAGUE Cast Reveal What DC Characters They Want In Sequels(Is short I put all here):
*

https://www.newsarama.com/37306-the-...m-members.html

Some of the film's stars are looking to the future and naming their picks for who should join the team for a sequel.

*Ben Affleck* was the first to speak up when the group, consisting of Affleck, Ray Fisher, Ezra Miller, Henry Cavill, Gal Gadot, and Jason Momoa, was asked by MTV International who they'd like to see on the team, saying *he'd like to see Black Canary join and increase the female presence on the team.
*

*"Supergirl* ,for that same reason,*" said Cavill. "And it's nice to have a bit of family for Superman."

Fisher added that he'd like to see Zatanna*(whom Miller briefly confused with Katana) to the mix. 

*Miller then pointed out that the League could include a female Green Lantern*, though it was unclear if he had a specific example in mind. Affleck joked that it could be a "woman with a fish head," presumably referring to the generally alien make-up of the Green Lantern Corps

----------


## sakuyamons

The reviews are out. Mostly positive it seems.

----------


## Elmo

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/2017...rst-reactions/

----------


## Bossace

be careful of some posts I read a spoiler possibly small that I was I didn’t. From what im reading non spoliers though its a fun film with fun charcaters specifically flash and aquaman stealing the show, wonder woman is clearly the best of the crew, cyborg and the villian are the weak links and the atory feels narratively messy and rushed. With the movie being 2 hours with credits, read there are 2 credit scenes btw, it could have been a lot worst so ill take mixed to okay reviews.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Good but not amazing seems to be the consensus. That's all it needed to be! Bring on next week!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Based on the reactions I've seen so far, I have a feeling JL will settle in the 60-70s on RT. Perhaps 80s if the critics are extra-wowed by the fun.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

The critics make it sound like Avengers; fun characters, and action, but bland narrative, with a weak villain.

The messy narrative makes sense given we know that they shaved off around 30min of footage. 

Also, it sounds like if you liked world building and layered story of BvS, then you'll only walk out of this movie thinking "that was okay".

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Also, God damn is the JL score generic as all hell.

Jeez, never let Elfman score a DCFU movie again. If you're not gonna try and wow then stay at home.

----------


## nightw1ng

There's a lot of "It's ok.", "It's not perfect.", "It's fine.", etc. Sounds like a mixed bag, but at least they're saying it's fun/funny.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Based on the reactions I've seen so far, I have a feeling JL will settle in the 60-70s on RT. Perhaps 80s if the critics are extra-wowed by the fun.


Seems a solid bet, but I am just relieved thanks to the social embargo we don't have to sift through BS over the weekend over people who may or may not have seen the movie. 

What is crazy is there is people who have seen the film 2-3 times already..!!

----------


## ekrolo2

It sounds like this'll  fail where Wonder Woman succeeded: have some actual substance in spite of its format.

----------


## Energist

> There's a lot of "It's ok.", "It's not perfect.", "It's fine.", etc. Sounds like a mixed bag, but at least they're saying it's fun/funny.


To me, a lot of the reactions read like longtime DCEU-haters or MCU fanboys (or both) who know if they outright bash the film they'll lose all credibility, so they're giving it a much more believable "good but not great" review instead.  Unfortunately for most of these people, they already lost all credibility with me years ago, so I don't really care what they have to say about the film.  I think it looks fantastic and can't wait to see it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> There's a lot of "It's ok.", "It's not perfect.", "It's fine.", etc. Sounds like a mixed bag, but at least they're saying it's fun/funny.


That sounds like Thor Ragnarok.

----------


## TheSupernaut

Hans Zimmer's absence is definitely felt by the official score. Danny Elfman really did peak in 2002. I don't understand how he can go from the greatness of the Raimi Spider-Man films to whatever hack job this was.

----------


## Punisher007

> To me, a lot of the reactions read like longtime DCEU-haters or MCU fanboys (or both) who know if they outright bash the film they'll lose all credibility, so they're giving it a much more believable "good but not great" review instead.  Unfortunately for most of these people, they already lost all credibility with me years ago, so I don't really care what they have to say about the film.  I think it looks fantastic and can't wait to see it.


Or that's how they actually feel.  Shocking notion for some people I know.  Not everything has to come down to "they're biased."

----------


## Clark_Kent

So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with “good not great”? Am I reading this right? 

If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60’s to 70’s, that’s a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Mixed to positive reactions overall. Very few negative reviews. 
A crowd pleaser: Light, fun, slightly flawed at times with a weak villain. 

I think those are fair summaries from what we've seen. 
We're fine, folks. Based upon all of this, I think JL finishes in the 70s on RT for those who care about that kind of thing. 

I do think it's the cool and hop thing to do in the critic world right now to hate on the DCEU and be overtly judgmental.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with “good not great”? Am I reading this right? 
> 
> If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60’s to 70’s, that’s a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol


Right? Like this is wayyy better then anyone could have predicted so far only one reaction has been flat out negative (from the Mashable guy no less), the rest have either been positive or mixed. If those mixed reviewers decide to lean more into positive this could be Snyder's highest rated movie.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> That sounds like Thor Ragnarok.



Not meaning to hijack the thread, but I'm going to for a second. 
I saw Ragnarok last night. 

CGI on Surtur was awful. CGI for Hela at times was awful. 
Too many comedic lines came at the wrong time and fell flat with our crowd. Serious moment, oh! Have to drop a one liner in!

It was a fun time, don't get me wrong. And I think it was the best Thor (which isn't saying much), but at this current point, I think it's pretty overrated. I'll watch it again though.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with good not great? Am I reading this right? 
> 
> If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60s to 70s, thats a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol


This is why "fans" should never have been shortened from "fanatics."

----------


## MosSuperman

Listened to Elfman's OST for JL and I'm very disappointed. Wow what a letdown.

----------


## Monkey Genius

> So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with “good not great”? Am I reading this right? 
> 
> If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60’s to 70’s, that’s a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol


Except it sounds like what I liked about the DCEU is gone. The attempt at depth. Even if it wasn’t always successful. It’s not good news to me if all it gets me is more Marvel movies in DC clothing.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with good not great? Am I reading this right? 
> 
> If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60s to 70s, thats a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol


Sorry I'm not satisfied with being considered as good as Thor: The Dark World...

----------


## Black_Adam

> So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with “good not great”? Am I reading this right? 
> 
> If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60’s to 70’s, that’s a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol


Yeah I'm pleasantly surprised by what I've read today, fun is not a bad word as much as some of the DCEU fandom seem to despise it. I expect the RT% to be higher like low 80's.

Really happy seeing most are praising the new characters and I saw multiple people compare it to Justice League Unlimited which is music to my ears.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Sorry I'm not satisfied with being considered as good as Thor: The Dark World...


I’m strictly talking critically. In my opinion, the Ultimate Cut of BvS should be in the 90’s because I see it as a damn masterpiece. Unfortunately, I’m in the minority opinion. But here’s the deal: almost EVERY single time it gets brought up and argued about, someone ALWAYS brings up the RT score. And then fans of the film will say it’s biased. And it becomes a major circlejerk of people on both sides arguing a REVIEW score, instead of the themes or the film itself. 

_And goddamn is that tiring to read._

If JL scored somewhere between 65 & 75? Then maybe people will talk about the movie, and not the score. Look at Man of Steel, isn’t that in the 50’s? Nobody argues over the RT score, they argue the story. Which is how films should be discussed - on what they bring to the table, not what RT says it is. 

If the RT scores say it is only as good as Thor: Dark World, is that just automatically going to be your opinion as well? Does a higher score mean you’ll like the movie more? I think people should form their own opinions, regardless of RT, but your mileage may vary. The one and absolutely only reason I want it to score decently on RT is because I’d like to discuss the film instead of only discussing the reviews.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yeah I'm pleasantly surprised by what I've read today, fun is not a bad word as much as some of the DCEU fandom seem to despise it.
> 
> Really happy seeing most are praising the new characters and I saw multiple people compare it to Justice League Unlimited which is music to my ears.


Yep. Im 100% okay with fun, and though I have adored the previous entries I am also okay with humor and lack of character depth. Know why? Because this is the conclusion to Snyders trilogy. Weve had all the setup, now its time for the payoff. 

Weak villain? No problem! The point of this type of movie, just as with Avengers, is to bring the team together & give them someone to punch. Thats it. Its the payoff for the journey we started 4 years ago with Man of Steel. They can go deeper with the solo films to come. If future films become MCU films with the humor & stuff, then that will be a problem. But that has nothing to do with THIS film.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

I'm encouraged by what I'm hearing today, too.

As for the criticism of the villain being bland, has Steppenwolf ever been anything more interesting than "Darkseid's lieutenant"? He was unceremoniously killed off in the DCAU, and the only comic I've read with him in it was Robinson's _Earth-2_. As long as he kicks some @$$, is imposing enough and lays hints about Darkseid, then I'll 100% ok with that.

----------


## robreedwrites

> I'm encouraged by what I'm hearing today, too.
> 
> As for the criticism of the villain being bland, has Steppenwolf ever been anything more interesting than "Darkseid's lieutenant"? He was unceremoniously killed off in the DCAU, and the only comic I've read with him in it was Robinson's _Earth-2_. As long as he kicks some @$$, is imposing enough and lays hints about Darkseid, then I'll 100% ok with that.


I'm not a big DC reader. I didn't know Steppenwolf existed before this movie. I just want to see the Justice League kick butt and get along. It sounds like I'm getting that. The film's 1hr59m (including credits, from what I understand), so even if it did something awful, it is at least is nice enough to be short.

----------


## Username taken

Sounds good so far. Flawed but fun which is ok.

I'm expecting an RT score of between 60-80%.

It's a super hero first time team up movie, I'm not expecting The Godfather here. I just want to have a fun time for two hours and if JL delivers that then I'll be fine.

----------


## Jekyll

> Listened to Elfman's OST for JL and I'm very disappointed. Wow what a letdown.


Why do you say that? I just finished listening and was pleasantly surprised. Elfman hasn’t done much lately and it was pretty good, with several clever moments.

----------


## jertz666

Just a reminder:  Initial reactions tend to be overwhelmingly positive.  So the mixed-to-somewhat-positive reactions we're seeing right now may not be a good sign.   This is the time we should be seeing raves like "Best superhero movie ever !"   That's why all scores whether it's Rotten Tomatoes or user ratings tend to go down over time.   

For now, I'm keeping my expectations in check.   Visually, the movie looks ugly to me but I'm glad to see the words "fun" and "funny" pop up in these tweets.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> So wait, after all of the (sometimes unfair) bashing of BvS we had to endure, some here are disappointed with “good not great”? Am I reading this right? 
> 
> If this movie, a Snyder movie, gets scored in the 60’s to 70’s, that’s a goddamn win for us DCEU fans lol


I think the difference is, this time around some of us are afraid we agree with the critics. Suicide Squad aside, it sounds like there's a chance this could be the least favorite DCEU film yet for already existing fans of the franchise. I'm glad the universe will survive but I can't say I'm overly excited for a tone that pleases general audiences more than it will please my actual experience. Not that I'm going in with that assumption, I expect to like it, but if humor and "fun" is what's saving the movie for a lot of critics, it might not be enough for me.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Just a reminder:  Initial reactions tend to be overwhelmingly positive.  So the mixed-to-somewhat-positive reactions we're seeing right now may not be a good sign.   This is the time we should be seeing raves like "Best superhero movie ever !"   That's why all scores whether it's Rotten Tomatoes or user ratings tend to go down over time.   
> 
> For now, I'm keeping my expectations in check.   Visually, the movie looks ugly to me but I'm glad to see the words "fun" and "funny" pop up in these tweets.


I think the reviews are very conscious that it's a foundation for the franchise and are approaching it from that angle, rather than simply viewing it as its own movie. They know what the baggage was coming in and the stakes going forward. So instead of just being "a fun time at the movies", they have to remind us "there are still flaws", because the audience perceived massive flaws before.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Just a reminder:  Initial reactions tend to be overwhelmingly positive.  So the mixed-to-somewhat-positive reactions we're seeing right now may not be a good sign.   This is the time we should be seeing raves like "Best superhero movie ever !"   That's why all scores whether it's Rotten Tomatoes or user ratings tend to go down over time.   
> 
> For now, I'm keeping my expectations in check.   Visually, the movie looks ugly to me but I'm glad to see the words "fun" and "funny" pop up in these tweets.


Considering that it isn't getting those reactions IS  a good thing. Also a majority of these aren't initial reactions as screenings took place at the beginning of the month some folks already seen the film twice!

----------


## Black_Adam

> Just a reminder:  Initial reactions tend to be overwhelmingly positive.  So the mixed-to-somewhat-positive reactions we're seeing right now may not be a good sign.   This is the time we should be seeing raves like "Best superhero movie ever !"   That's why all scores whether it's Rotten Tomatoes or user ratings tend to go down over time.   
> 
> For now, I'm keeping my expectations in check.   Visually, the movie looks ugly to me but I'm glad to see the words "fun" and "funny" pop up in these tweets.


I get what you are saying but the difference with the BvS and SS initial reactions is they were mainly from fan screenings and the premier etc. these are actual critics and yeah as others have said they seem a bit more level headed and objective than "OMG Better than Dark Knight!".

The fact that WB moved the embargo up seems to suggest they feel confident the general consensus will stay positive.

----------


## golgi

Here is a list so far for the JL.

----------


## Troian

Looks it will be every other cbm. Relatively weak villian and 3rd act being cgi heavy, jokey, lots of action and battling a generic army, sounds like I'm gonna have some mind numbing fun.

Its sad though. If BvS and SS were received better, JL could have easily made Avengers-Jurassic World numbers, depending on exchange rates. But I guess at least over a billion should be good enough.

----------


## Troian

> It sounds like this'll  fail where Wonder Woman succeeded: have some actual substance in spite of its format.


I'll have to disagree with that, I think WW had as much substance as the majority of its recent fellow superhero movie peers. 

It looks like JL will be like WW to an extent. A weak villian with a straight forwardish story with humor and fun. Topped with a bunch of nameless, facelss soldiers. 

But I think many will be okay with that. I know I'll be watching regardless. And I know people give flack for the RT/Critics reviews but it makes sense because people want the safety of knowing that there is a high chance they won't feel ripped off when they waste 25 dollars on a ticket plus food.

----------


## golgi

> Conner Schwerdtfeger @ConnerWS
> Yo whoever is running this @reddit #JusticeLeague thread: my review is positive, not mixed


To update on the list I found.

----------


## Ascended

> I'll have to disagree with that, I think WW had as much substance as the majority of its recent fellow superhero movie peers. 
> 
> It looks like JL will be like WW to an extent. A weak villian with a straight forwardish story with humor and fun. Topped with a bunch of nameless, facelss soldiers.


Its nice to see mostly positive reviews for the film thus far, but I agree this new, lighter approach is a little disappointing. 

I liked that the DCEU tried to do something different than Marvel. I like that they tried to dig into the philosophy and mythology (in a classic, archetypal sense) and deeper meanings and motivations of these people, and how the real world would respond to their arrival. They swung for the fences. I gotta respect that.

Wonder Woman was a good film. I really enjoyed the hell out of it. But it didn't try to get too deep, with one of the most philosophical characters in comics, if not fiction as a whole. Im a little sad to see them give up this original attempt to say something with weight to it, even if they've largely failed thus far. I don't think the lessons to learn from BvS and SS were "Drop the higher intellectual bar and just copy Marvel, with easy jokes and good action pieces to distract from the lack of plot or villain."

Im not insulting any films here (especially since I havent seen JL yet). And it sounds like I'll enjoy myself when the family goes to see it. That's great, and at the end of the day that's all I need. But I cant help but feel that we might be losing out on something that could have been different, and in some ways, better. 

Imagine if the DCEU could re-structure itself into a PG-13 shared universe of Logan style films; daring and thoughtful and emotional, instead of another humorous, light hearted world like the Avengers with a Snyder-style visual paint job.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I'll have to disagree with that, I think WW had as much substance as the majority of its recent fellow superhero movie peers. 
> 
> It looks like JL will be like WW to an extent. A weak villian with a straight forwardish story with humor and fun. Topped with a bunch of nameless, facelss soldiers. 
> 
> But I think many will be okay with that. I know I'll be watching regardless. And I know people give flack for the RT/Critics reviews but it makes sense because people want the safety of knowing that there is a high chance they won't feel ripped off when they waste 25 dollars on a ticket plus food.


He's saying JL looks to have less substance than WW, not that WW didn't have substance.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Its nice to see mostly positive reviews for the film thus far, but I agree this new, lighter approach is a little disappointing. 
> 
> I liked that the DCEU tried to do something different than Marvel. I like that they tried to dig into the philosophy and mythology (in a classic, archetypal sense) and deeper meanings and motivations of these people, and how the real world would respond to their arrival. They swung for the fences. I gotta respect that.
> 
> Wonder Woman was a good film. I really enjoyed the hell out of it. But it didn't try to get too deep, with one of the most philosophical characters in comics, if not fiction as a whole. Im a little sad to see them give up this original attempt to say something with weight to it, even if they've largely failed thus far. I don't think the lessons to learn from BvS and SS were "Drop the higher intellectual bar and just copy Marvel, with easy jokes and good action pieces to distract from the lack of plot or villain."
> 
> Im not insulting any films here (especially since I havent seen JL yet). And it sounds like I'll enjoy myself when the family goes to see it. That's great, and at the end of the day that's all I need. But I cant help but feel that we might be losing out on something that could have been different, and in some ways, better. 
> 
> Imagine if the DCEU could re-structure itself into a PG-13 shared universe of Logan style films; daring and thoughtful and emotional, instead of another humorous, light hearted world like the Avengers with a Snyder-style visual paint job.


Well said. These characters deserve more I think.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> Wonder Woman was a good film. I really enjoyed the hell out of it. But it didn't try to get too deep, with one of the most philosophical characters in comics, if not fiction as a whole.


I respectfully disagree. Wonder Woman is a deceptively deep film, which I didn't fully appreciate until I watched it again. There's a lot going on under the hood, from the nature of war, to open vs. closed societies, and its both obvious and subtle feminism.

Siddhant Adlakha over at Birth. Death. Movies. has done a very good job of articulating how much depth there really is to Wonder Woman once you start looking past the Hollywood blockbuster bells and whistles.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/06/...cting-idealism

----------


## Robotman

> Looks it will be every other cbm. Relatively weak villian and 3rd act being cgi heavy, jokey, lots of action and battling a generic army, sounds like I'm gonna have some mind numbing fun.
> 
> Its sad though. If BvS and SS were received better, JL could have easily made Avengers-Jurassic World numbers, depending on exchange rates. But I guess at least over a billion should be good enough.


at this stage i dont think WB could afford to experiment with the superhero movie formula. they needed to play it safe. there's just far too much riding on this movie. they couldn't afford to have another BvS-like disappointment. despite Wonder Woman's success, the DCEU brand is still tarnished. they needed Justice League to just be a fun ride that makes the average viewer excited to see the stand alone flicks.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> at this stage i dont think WB could afford to experiment with the superhero movie formula. they needed to play it safe. there's just far too much riding on this movie. they couldn't afford to have another BvS-like disappointment. despite Wonder Woman's success, the DCEU brand is still tarnished. they needed Justice League to just be a fun ride that makes the average viewer excited to see the stand alone flicks.


"Underwhelming" could backfire just as much. People might walk out saying "this is their big course correction? It was alright." Fans will go see the other movies again, but maybe not the parents or boyfriend/girlfriend or friend the fan dragged along. 

Hoping that's not the case though.

----------


## Confuzzled

> To update on the list I found.


Yeah, I see some certain individuals jumping to call some reactions "mixed" even though they are of the same variety of most positively reviewed movies from the competition. Glad that that reviewer clarified it. Anyway, not long now until we know where Justice League exactly stands with critics.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I respectfully disagree. Wonder Woman is a deceptively deep film, which I didn't fully appreciate until I watched it again. There's a lot going on under the hood, from the nature of war, to open vs. closed societies, and its both obvious and subtle feminism.
> 
> Siddhant Adlakha over at Birth. Death. Movies. has done a very good job of articulating how much depth there really is to Wonder Woman once you start looking past the Hollywood blockbuster bells and whistles.
> 
> http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/06/...cting-idealism


I agree. This review by Richard Brody from The New Yorker also sheds light on the often overlooked themes of the movie like the criticism of most religions tending to glorify war and violence as well as the shortcomings of isolation and segregation, even if it's in a utopia like Themyscira.  

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/ri...f-wonder-woman

----------


## Stick Figure

I'd take Junkie Xl over Elfman or John Williams anyday. They've had their time & their sound is dated. Big mistake in using Elfman. Fine composer but not right for a 2017 super hero film.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'd take Junkie Xl over Elfman or John Williams anyday. They've had their time & their sound is dated. Big mistake in using Elfman. Fine composer but not right for a 2017 super hero film.


It's not like Junkie XL doesn't sound dated. While Williams and Elfman sound 90's, XL sounds early 00's.

----------


## BatmanJones

I just accidentally wandered into two passes for a screening in my home town of Houston Monday night at 7!!! So glad I'll see it before review embargo!

I'm in shock. I feel like The Flash just pushed me and ran away.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I just accidentally wandered into two passes for a screening in my home town of Houston Monday night at 7!!! So glad I'll see it before review embargo!
> 
> I'm in shock. I feel like The Flash just pushed me and ran away.


Cool news! Hope you enjoy the film.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I just accidentally wandered into two passes for a screening in my home town of Houston Monday night at 7!!! So glad I'll see it before review embargo!
> 
> I'm in shock. I feel like The Flash just pushed me and ran away.


Congrats, man! Insanely jealous right now! Hope you enjoy it!

----------


## Soubhagya

> I just accidentally wandered into two passes for a screening in my home town of Houston Monday night at 7!!! So glad I'll see it before review embargo!
> 
> I'm in shock. I feel like The Flash just pushed me and ran away.


Congrats! That's awesome! Have a good time.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It's not like Junkie XL doesn't sound dated. While Williams and Elfman sound 90's, XL sounds early 00's.


Junkie's Batman theme was a bunch... Of banging drums? A professional composer got paid for that? 

I 100% take Elfman any day and we haven't seen the film many OST w/o context don't sound as good.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I just accidentally wandered into two passes for a screening in my home town of Houston Monday night at 7!!! So glad I'll see it before review embargo!
> 
> I'm in shock. I feel like The Flash just pushed me and ran away.


Look forward to hearing your thoughts! It's always better hearing fellow fans thoughts.

----------


## Jekyll

> I'd take Junkie Xl over Elfman or John Williams anyday. They've had their time & their sound is dated. Big mistake in using Elfman. Fine composer but not right for a 2017 super hero film.


Completely disagree. If you like Junkie, thats fine. But Elfman and Williams are not dated by any means. Williams completely outdid himself on Force Awakens and I very much look forward to the Last Jedi. As for Elfman, I listened to JL yesterday and was pleasantly surprised. The “Zimmer” effect is not the only way to score a superhero movie. If you want a strong score for a superhero film then it needs strong thematic material and not just effects. Take Marvel for example, for the most part Marvel’s scores are mostly forgettable because they lack coherent and identifiable themes.

----------


## Soubhagya

I don't understand Williams dated or something. James Bond is evergreen just as Superman. The tunes are pretty much representative of the respective characters. Remix it and change it a bit according to the needs and it can work even now. To call Williams dated would be like calling Superman dated IMO. The theme can work just as Bond's. Why Spider-man Homecoming used something from the 60s theme too. Rejecting the past blindly is never right because one builds upon what has come before.

At the same time i love Zimmer too. His MoS is something which i hear regularly. Its in my playlist. In fact, i can't decide between Flight, MoS main theme and Williams as to which is my favorite. Rejecting the good work of present and unnecessary fixation on the past is bad too. I can't understand the hatred to Zimmer. It is something really great.

Junkie XL. I am not a fan of his work. Though it worked for the BvS film. The music shall suit the film or it will feel out of place. We shall judge Elfman on the basis of how well it fits the film. It may not be memorable on its own accord but if it fits the tone they are aspiring for i would have no complaints. Something like Williams or Zimmer does not happen everyday.

Personally, i wish the Williams score to continue. Its iconic and works well for the character. Use it like Bond. Zimmer's shall not be forgotten at the same time. Use it where it fits.

----------


## HaveAtThee

> Its nice to see mostly positive reviews for the film thus far, but I agree this new, lighter approach is a little disappointing. 
> 
> I liked that the DCEU tried to do something different than Marvel. I like that they tried to dig into the philosophy and mythology (in a classic, archetypal sense) and deeper meanings and motivations of these people, and how the real world would respond to their arrival. They swung for the fences. I gotta respect that.
> 
> Wonder Woman was a good film. I really enjoyed the hell out of it. But it didn't try to get too deep, with one of the most philosophical characters in comics, if not fiction as a whole. Im a little sad to see them give up this original attempt to say something with weight to it, even if they've largely failed thus far. I don't think the lessons to learn from BvS and SS were "Drop the higher intellectual bar and just copy Marvel, with easy jokes and good action pieces to distract from the lack of plot or villain."
> 
> Im not insulting any films here (especially since I havent seen JL yet). And it sounds like I'll enjoy myself when the family goes to see it. That's great, and at the end of the day that's all I need. But I cant help but feel that we might be losing out on something that could have been different, and in some ways, better. 
> 
> Imagine if the DCEU could re-structure itself into a PG-13 shared universe of Logan style films; daring and thoughtful and emotional, instead of another humorous, light hearted world like the Avengers with a Snyder-style visual paint job.


I agree wholeheartedly though I'll add that I felt Wonder Woman precisely pushed that envelope you're speaking of.  It definitely treats the titular character as a god come to life and it showcases her struggles to accept humanity even for its darker side. The humor in the film was used sparingly but peppered in when necessary to bring some levity to an otherwise fairly serious story of the ravages of war.

But I definitely agree with the path DC chose as it was definitely a more bold direction to take, especially since Marvel essentially established "the" superhero film formula for success.  They needed to bring something different to the table.  Besides, "fun" doesn't always have to be funny or comedic.  Wonder Woman was easily one of the best times I had watching a superhero flick, along with Winter Soldier and the Nolan Bat films.

----------


## MosSuperman

> Personally, i wish the Williams score to continue. Its iconic and works well for the character. Use it like Bond. Zimmer's shall not be forgotten at the same time. Use it where it fits.


I like Williams score I just don't think I would want to hear it in the movie. Unless it playes during the DC Comics logo at the beginning so that you know you're about to see a Superman film. As for Zimmer's "Flight" and "What Are You Going To Do When You're Not Saving The World" fit better for this Superman.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I like Williams score I just don't think I would want to hear it in the movie. Unless it playes during the DC Comics logo at the beginning so that you know you're about to see a Superman film. As for Zimmer's "Flight" and "What Are You Going To Do When You're Not Saving The World" fit better for this Superman.


Use it where it fits. Completely forgetting this is not good. That's what i wish to say. This Superman is slowly growing. He won't be the same when he returns in JL. He died in BvS while accepting his place in the world. "This is my world. You are my world": these were his last words before he died. I am sure there would be some change within him when he returns back. Someone more confident and self assured then before. While Williams may not work something might work. Some cues or nods is good.

Tune before logo is a nice idea. I am with you there. All i am saying is that try to synthesize both of them depending upon the situation. It would be wrong to completely throw away one at the expense of the other. There is a group which says Zimmer's score sucks. There is another group that Williams is old. It shall stay in 1978. 

I love both of them. And don't like both of the views that i mentioned.

----------


## ekrolo2

If you want to use the Elfman or Williams themes during scenes that kind of evoke 89 and 78 Batman & Superman then fine, whatever, get your nostalgia pandering out of the way there, it'll at least make sense in that context. Making those the default themes for either character doesn't sit right with me, especially since Superman's new one is fantastic. The new Batman one from BvS where he sounds like an angry animal banging against a steel cage doesn't fit but you can easily rework it into something more heroic to show off unyielding determination instead of barely contained rage.

----------


## Jekyll

> If you want to use the Elfman or Williams themes during scenes that kind of evoke 89 and 78 Batman & Superman then fine, whatever, get your nostalgia pandering out of the way there, it'll at least make sense in that context. Making those the default themes for either character doesn't sit right with me, especially since Superman's new one is fantastic. The new Batman one from BvS where he sounds like an angry animal banging against a steel cage doesn't fit but you can easily rework it into something more heroic to show off unyielding determination instead of barely contained rage.


They are not the primary themes they appear a few times for a few seconds. Paying homage to what has come before. 

Again if you are a Zimmer fan great, glad you enjoy his music. But to discredit another composer like I have seen in several prior posts is foolish. Zimmer’s way is not the only way to score a film.

----------


## Soubhagya

> If you want to use the Elfman or Williams themes during scenes that kind of evoke 89 and 78 Batman & Superman then fine, whatever, get your nostalgia pandering out of the way there, it'll at least make sense in that context. Making those the default themes for either character doesn't sit right with me, especially since Superman's new one is fantastic. The new Batman one from BvS where he sounds like an angry animal banging against a steel cage doesn't fit but you can easily rework it into something more heroic to show off unyielding determination instead of barely contained rage.


Wait you seem to misunderstand me. I am the last person to say i need nostalgia. I watched MoS before Superman The Movie. I actually watched both of them as a grown up too. I did not have patience for Superman films as a kid. MoS Zimmer themes are really good. They are some of my favorites. But i don't agree that Williams won't work if used intelligently. I am not sure about making it the default theme. Maybe it will work or maybe it won't. But complete absence does not sit right with me. Because its a theme which fits the character of Superman. Batman '89. I am not particularly fond of it. Some nods can be good though. Its a brilliant piece of music. While Junkie's music for Batman was not memorable it worked for the film.

----------


## Confuzzled

Isn't Zimmer's Superman theme included in the film too? Why use it otherwise for the Lois and Clark scene from the last trailer? As for Junkie's Batman theme, as Baggie Sayan said, it was as generic and forgettable as they come, so who's going to miss it? Might as well replace it with the Elfman theme that is now iconic and synonymous with Batman thanks not just to the 90's movies, but also BTAS/TNBA. It also fits because the character is now seasoned, so using the classic theme in effective moments is a neat trick to harken back to a prime that has past.

----------


## Lightning Rider

They're incorporating both Superman themes (the Williams one in a remade modernized way) and the Elfman one is definitely better than the banging drums one (though maybe that fit BvS) so I'll be fine with the soundtrack so long as it fits the scenes and doesn't distract or take me out of  the film.

----------


## ekrolo2

> They are not the primary themes they appear a few times for a few seconds. Paying homage to what has come before. 
> 
> Again if you are a Zimmer fan great, glad you enjoy his music. But to discredit another composer like I have seen in several prior posts is foolish. Zimmers way is not the only way to score a film.


I never said Zimmer was the only guy who makes good music, don't put words in my mouth. It's the clear nostalgia pandering that gets me and I'll eat a brick if the following Supes stuff doesn't get Reeved into oblivion now with Johns here.

I've also listened to the soundtrack, there's literally nothing of the old Zimmer stuff there besides a bastardized WW theme that would sound embarrassing on YT.

----------


## yohyoi

I might be alone in this, but I prefer my comics from DC and my movies from Marvel. The DCEU doesn't capture why I like reading DC comics. It's the characters! I love a lot of the MCU characters, but I only love a handful of DCEU characters. I'm also not a fan of Batfleck, who I don't like in person, even if he is closest Batman in body physique. Nor am I fan of Cavill Supes; reminds me too much of New52 Superman.

Nothing really, just a rant. I just prefer the comics version a lot more compared to their DCEU counterpart. Except Wonder Woman, Gal rocks.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Look forward to hearing your thoughts! It's always better hearing fellow fans thoughts.


Thanks to all for the kind words. I expect I'll be posting my own spoiler-free review late Monday night. Never been so stoked for a movie in my life.

I was obsessed with DC Comics as a kid and I'm attending with an elementary school friend with whom I grew up loving these characters since childhood. And neither of us ever stopped loving them though we fell out of touch over the years. He's the best of many comic-loving friends I could bring along.

And this is the one I've been waiting for more than any other. I waited with bated breath for Batman (1989) and scored early screening pass to that when I lived in NYC. I camped out for hours for good seats. And I got early tix to most Nolan Batman movies. Then I was lucky enough to score BvS tickets too before the critic embargo lifted, when everyone was still expecting a great response. I was very disappointed as many here know but my friend that's coming with Monday loved BvS. The important thing to me about seeing BvS early was that I wasn't influenced at all by reviews or buzz. I came in KNOWING I would love it and I was proven wrong. But as much as I wanted to see my two favorite DC heroes on film together (Batman and Superman) it was mostly in service of getting to the movie I REALLY wanted which was Justice League.

Growing up Batman was always my favorite character but Justice League was my favorite comic and JL was my true obsession. I used to have a drawing board and I used to use tracing paper to trace entire issues of it, maybe 20 of them, as originally drawn by Dick Dillin and Frank McLaughlin. I got my truest pleasure from that team of heroes and no other team was a suitable substitute. If I started comics around age 3, and I did, I've been waiting for THIS movie for 45 years. And over all that time I've gone through the same quashed rumors or aborted attempts (JL: Mortal) as you all have if you're my age or older.

I was obsessed with back issues of Batman, Superman, World's Finest, all the solo titles of JLA'ers as a child but Justice League was the only title I felt I needed to own in its entirety. I was getting awfully close to a full collection (still missing the most expensive, oldest back stories though I'd read them in reprints) and I was nearly there when my family home burned to the ground when I was 12, destroying my entire collection, after which I started over on my Justice League collection again and again it was lost to me in a move when my mother's friend, who had been helping with the move, threw them out.

That's the history I'm bringing into the movie. And I feel like what I've read from social media yesterday means I will LOVE it. Here's hoping for the opposite of a repeat of my early viewing of BvS, which left me so cold and disappointed. I can't wait to share my feelings about the film with you all. I feel like they're almost guaranteed to be positive. I can forgive a lot of flaws in a JL movie as long as it also comes with great character beats and fan-service moments.

And, though I've been avoiding all clips since the "Heroes" trailer and all spoilers too, I get the deep feeling that this will finally be the superhero movie I've waited all my life for. Even the complaints on social media don't bother me much because they're all leavened with the fact that most of all they got the characters right. That is freaking thrilling to me.

In 48 hours I'll be sitting on the sidewalk waiting in line for a 7 p.m. screening. I still can't believe it.

----------


## BatmanJones

I also drop an average of $35 weekly at my LCS on new DC (only) comics. I'm thrilled with the direction of DC _comics_ lately and I think the Justice League film is going to leave me every bit as excited about upcoming DC movies as I am by the comics lately.

In life, typically, I am more than a cynic or pessimist. I am a pure nihilist, existentialist, atheist. But when it comes to things that made me happy in childhood (comic books, Houston Rockets) I have always been the eternal optimist.

I walk into each and every one fully believing I'll be blown away though that's only actually happened a few times (Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman, first two Superman movies and that's it) and I'm going in with VERY positive vibes. It will be difficult to make me dislike this movie. It will be the opposite of a miracle if I do. Everything I've seen has told me this is the one, more than any other, that I've been waiting for.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I might be alone in this, but I prefer my comics from DC and my movies from Marvel. The DCEU doesn't capture why I like reading DC comics. It's the characters! I love a lot of the MCU characters, but I only love a handful of DCEU characters. I'm also not a fan of Batfleck, who I don't like in person, even if he is closest Batman in body physique. Nor am I fan of Cavill Supes; reminds me too much of New52 Superman.
> 
> Nothing really, just a rant. I just prefer the comics version a lot more compared to their DCEU counterpart. Except Wonder Woman, Gal rocks.


Boy you just got into my head and posted my thoughts how'd you do that?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Troian

> I respectfully disagree. Wonder Woman is a deceptively deep film, which I didn't fully appreciate until I watched it again. There's a lot going on under the hood, from the nature of war, to open vs. closed societies, and its both obvious and subtle feminism.
> 
> Siddhant Adlakha over at Birth. Death. Movies. has done a very good job of articulating how much depth there really is to Wonder Woman once you start looking past the Hollywood blockbuster bells and whistles.
> 
> http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/06/...cting-idealism


I've seen it multiple times and don't see the depth that these reviewers see.

I found that the whole god that can do almost anything (Ares) ruined some of the messagees about war and obviously due to the Pg-13 rating they couldn't show just how bloody wars can get. All in all I found it like many other blockbusters, it was pg-13, very cgi heavy with all the same tropes common to them and maybe a few reflections on human nature and some heartwarming moments here and there. 

But thats okay. I still enjoyed the film. Now I wonder what JL will try to tackle.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> I've seen it multiple times and don't see the depth that these reviewers see.
> 
> I found that the whole god that can do almost anything (Ares) ruined some of the messagees about war and obviously due to the Pg-13 rating they couldn't show just how bloody wars can get. All in all I found it like many other blockbusters, it was pg-13, very cgi heavy with all the same tropes common to them and maybe a few reflections on human nature and some heartwarming moments here and there. 
> 
> But thats okay. I still enjoyed the film. Now I wonder what JL will try to tackle.


Exactly, all that matters is whether or not the film works for you. That's the way art works. Many different people are going to have many different reactions from it and get different things from it.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I've seen it multiple times and don't see the depth that these reviewers see.
> 
> I found that the whole god that can do almost anything (Ares) ruined some of the messagees about war and obviously due to the Pg-13 rating they couldn't show just how bloody wars can get. All in all I found it like many other blockbusters, it was pg-13, very cgi heavy with all the same tropes common to them and maybe a few reflections on human nature and some heartwarming moments here and there. 
> 
> But thats okay. I still enjoyed the film. Now I wonder what JL will try to tackle.


Same. Often times it feels like search for depth in shallow places to me. 

JL looks like it's going for that summer blockbuster approach and trying to make a "fun" and entertaining popcorn flick. I'm not entirely sure what theme JL would go for judging by the trailer.

----------


## Robotman

So in Justice League they apparently say that the 3 main races on earth are humans, Amazons, and Atlanteans. Each race having received a Mother Box from The New Gods. This really does set up Flashpoint pretty well. Having the Amazons go to war with The Atlanteans with the human caught in the middle works perfectly for the cinematic universe they’ve created. 

We know that Atlantis is pretty damn big and there are other underwater city-states in its surrounding area, but there only seems to be maybe a few thousand Amazons. I know they have advanced technology and mythical artifacts, but so do the Atlanteans. I just wonder if the cinematic universe will introduce the Bana Mighdall and other Amazon tribes.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I just accidentally wandered into two passes for a screening in my home town of Houston Monday night at 7!!! So glad I'll see it before review embargo!
> 
> I'm in shock. I feel like The Flash just pushed me and ran away.


Same happened to me, lol. Monday @ 7. Hopefully I at least have fun!

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Same happened to me, lol. Monday @ 7. Hopefully I at least have fun!


How. Why. Please.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Same happened to me, lol. Monday @ 7. Hopefully I at least have fun!


Awesome! Hope you enjoy it.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I don't think a Flashpoint movie would be appropriate right now. 
If WB/DC is trying to bring in new fans and keep general audiences engaged, they need to sometimes step away from the hardcore fan service (like in BvS). 

A Flashpoint movie right now I can see Geoff Johns driving (and I'm not a particularly huge fan of his) and his next pet project. Personally, they need to stay away from stories like that so soon into their "universe" fully interconnected, or not. I hope they change their minds on a Flashpoint movie, it'll just confuse the sh*t out of the general audience.

----------


## Carabas

> I don't think a Flashpoint movie would be appropriate right now. 
> If WB/DC is trying to bring in new fans and keep general audiences engaged, they need to sometimes step away from the hardcore fan service (like in BvS). 
> 
> A Flashpoint movie right now I can see Geoff Johns driving (and I'm not a particularly huge fan of his) and his next pet project. Personally, they need to stay away from stories like that so soon into their "universe" fully interconnected, or not. I hope they change their minds on a Flashpoint movie, it'll just confuse the sh*t out of the general audience.


I wouldn't get too worried about that.

Remember Civil War the comic? And how Civil War the movie was barely even similar? Andhow Winter Soldier the comic and Winter Soldier the movie basically just had the Winter Soldier character in common? And how CW Flash's Flashpoint was nothing like the comics version except for the most basic plot element?

----------


## manofsteel1979

I just hope any FLASHPOINT movie doesn't result in any stupid erasure of history or retcons. Leave the past alone and just move forward. If JL is turning out the way the social media reactions seem to indicate it is, then it's not needed. 

Last thing we need is to see Supes reverted to the Donner origin and all of BvS being undone because a small contingent of vocal malcontents can't get over that Supes killed Zod and Batman broke his no kill rule for like 10 mins of his career ,even though previous cinematic and comic versions did both. Just tell stories now. No need to confuse the GA with a stupid reboot. I mean, we've all seen what constant reboots have done to the comics. Let's not go there for the movies.

----------


## Carabas

> I just hope any FLASHPOINT movie doesn't result in any stupid erasure of history or retcons.


It almost certainly will not.

And when you get right to it, in the comics it was DC's desire to reboot that lead to Flashpoint, not the other way round.

Also, the general audience seems to handle reboots and continuity issues a whole lot better than the comic book fandom.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> It almost certainly will not.
> 
> And when you get right to it, in the comics it was DC's desire to reboot that lead to Flashpoint, not the other way round.
> 
> Also, the general audience seems to handle reboots and continuity issues a whole lot better than the comic book fandom.


Actually FLASHPOINT existed as a story before the New 52 reboot was an idea. It was hijacked in the last issue to spin out a reboot . 

I think Flashpoint could make for a good movie. I just think it'd be stupid to follow the folly of a new 52 and do a needless reboot as a means to use it to pander to the people who have had daggers for this DCEU from the moment MOS was clearly not going to be more of the Richard Donner style of Superman from moment one frame one of the movie.. there is a lot of hope and  excitement from said group since Flashpoint was announced that it would be used to " fix" the DCEU, and Geoff Johns has made it known his affinity for a Donner esque Supes through his comics work, so the fear is there that he'll use it to undo basically all the movies from MOS through JL ( with WW being the exception I guess) in order to fit his personal biases.

I mean from that we have heard, the Superman upon his return in JL will have grown into the " Classic" one people have been supposedly clamoring for ( and I would counter has already been there all along from MOS forward) so it would be stupid to erase it all now. 

If you don't want to reference MOS or BvS directly in future movies? Don't. Need to recast Batman Because Ben doesn't want to play it anymore? Just recast. No need to pull a stupid deage retcon just because.The audience has seen Batman recast numerous times . Just keep moving forward. Tell new stories. Use the previous movies if you wish or not.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

If Flashpoint happens, it will only tweak things slightly so future directors and writers aren't stuck with creative decision that didn't really work, such as having Wonder Woman abandon humanity after Steve's death. 

If Warner Bros wants to attract great creators, it's best to give them more freedom.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> If Flashpoint happens, it will only tweak things slightly so future directors and writers aren't stuck with creative decision that didn't really work, such as having Wonder Woman abandon humanity after Steve's death. 
> 
> If Warner Bros wants to attract great creators, it's best to give them more freedom.


The abandoning humanity line was such a throw-away-thing that fans kept blowing up because they take everything literal. It could have been just a jab as easily.

----------


## Carabas

> Actually FLASHPOINT existed as a story before the New 52 reboot was an idea. It was hijacked in the last issue to spin out a reboot.


Okay, technically the idea of Flashpoint must have existed pretty much since Johns started his second Flash run.
But Flashpoint and the New 52 are not related. There is no cause/effect relationship between the stories in the real world. 




> I think Flashpoint could make for a good movie.


Only if they change the ending and allow Barry to save his parents.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Just had a conversation with someone who saw JL, apparently Whedon reshot almost all of Henry Cavill’s scenes as Superman. Snyder had a much different vision for the character than what ended up on screen.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Just had a conversation with someone who saw JL, apparently Whedon reshot almost all of Henry Cavill’s scenes as Superman. Snyder had a much different vision for the character than what ended up on screen.


Reshoots for Superman fits what that film tech redditor said. Though I can't imagine a huge tonal difference since Superman was supposed to come back triumphant.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Reshoots for Superman fits what that film tech redditor said. Though I can't imagine a huge tonal difference since Superman was supposed to come back triumphant.


I think the big difference was Snyder probably milked the "will Superman go bad like in Batman's nightmare in BvS?" Angle a little more. From what I've gleaned there's only a brief scene that aludes to the " bad Superman" stuff when he first returns, but it's an afterthought. Which honestly I'm fine with. My only real fear of JL was that they'd make Supes an advesary of the league upon his return and only have him come to his senses in the final fight. I want Cav-El to be the guy at the end of MOS.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think the big difference was Snyder probably milked the "will Superman go bad like in Batman's nightmare in BvS?" Angle a little more. From what I've gleaned there's only a brief scene that aludes to the " bad Superman" stuff when he first returns, but it's an afterthought. Which honestly I'm fine with. My only real fear of JL was that they'd make Supes an advesary of the league upon his return and only have him come to his senses in the final fight. I want Cav-El to be the guy at the end of MOS.


I think that makes sense. Lingering too much on whether he's bad could work if he has enough overall screen time, but it shouldn't consist of most of it.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> I think the big difference was Snyder probably milked the "will Superman go bad like in Batman's nightmare in BvS?" Angle a little more. From what I've gleaned there's only a brief scene that aludes to the " bad Superman" stuff when he first returns, but it's an afterthought. Which honestly I'm fine with. My only real fear of JL was that they'd make Supes an advesary of the league upon his return and only have him come to his senses in the final fight. I want Cav-El to be the guy at the end of MOS.


What I was told was that Superman was an antagonist until the very last scene in the Snyder version. Whedon changed all of that, he’s now much closer to the classic Christopher Reeve Superman. Cavill has cgi alterations to his face to erase facial hair in all but one scene.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

What do. you guys think of this:

https://pagesix.com/2017/11/11/gal-g...ratner-is-out/

Gal Gadot is threatening to quit the DCEU if Warner Bros. doesn't fire Brett Rather. I applaud her.

Spoiler: It's going to work, too.

----------


## adrikito

> What do. you guys think of this:
> 
> https://pagesix.com/2017/11/11/gal-g...ratner-is-out/
> 
> Gal Gadot is threatening to quit the DCEU if Warner Bros. doesn't fire Brett Rather. I applaud her.
> 
> Spoiler: It's going to work, too.


I heard this today...  Then, goodbye brett rather..

----------


## Troian

> What do. you guys think of this:
> 
> https://pagesix.com/2017/11/11/gal-g...ratner-is-out/
> 
> Gal Gadot is threatening to quit the DCEU if Warner Bros. doesn't fire Brett Rather. I applaud her.
> 
> Spoiler: It's going to work, too.


She's just saving face like every other actress. It would look _really_ bad if she starred in WW2 with him involved in spite of all the claims. If the public never knew about the sexual harassment stuff it would have been business as usual. 

Remind you, she is still working with Ben Affleck and he's only apologized because his demons finally caught up with him.

----------


## Bukdiah

> What do. you guys think of this:
> 
> https://pagesix.com/2017/11/11/gal-g...ratner-is-out/
> 
> Gal Gadot is threatening to quit the DCEU if Warner Bros. doesn't fire Brett Rather. I applaud her.
> 
> Spoiler: It's going to work, too.


Depends on how major the buyout of Ratner is I suppose. His company backed a lot of the movie and are reaping the profits. Maybe another production company would hop on instead? I'm unaware of what Gal's contractual agreements are (how many films is she signed for?), so when push comes to shove, she either has to break it and suffer the consequences or WB plays ball. Big game of chicken it seems. It's upsetting to see the whole 'innocent until proven guilty" thing is a myth, but that's how the cookie crumbles I guess.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Neat fan-made recap of all the DC films leading up to this moment  (even Suicide Squad! :P)

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Depends on how major the buyout of Ratner is I suppose. His company backed a lot of the movie and are reaping the profits. Maybe another production company would hop on instead? I'm unaware of what Gal's contractual agreements are (how many films is she signed for?), so when push comes to shove, she either has to break it and suffer the consequences or WB plays ball. Big game of chicken it seems. It's upsetting to see the whole 'innocent until proven guilty" thing is a myth, but that's how the cookie crumbles I guess.


Innocent until proven guilty is in a court of law, not a Hollywood system that suppressed molestation, rape and harassment. These are companies, not citizens. She’s asking one of them to abide by their internal policies.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Neat fan-made recap of all the DC films leading up to this moment  (even Suicide Squad! :P)


Freaking cool. Thanks for sharing!

----------


## Robotman

I can see Flashpoint changing a few things in the DCEU. Wonder Woman never walked away from humanity for 100 years and Affleck will no longer be Batman. I dont think its because WB is pushing Ben out of the roll. Ben seems to be dealing with a lot of stuff in his personal life and Im sure he wants to work on his own projects as a filmmaker. Every time I see him in a promotional interview he looks exhausted/depressed. Its like hes become Bruce Wayne in real life.

----------


## baltiroo

I am really intrigued by Justice League movie. And I share my thoughts on the trailer that came out for it with my Total Geek Live crew.

https://youtu.be/nsrKUweQazU

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I can see Flashpoint changing a few things in the DCEU. Wonder Woman never walked away from humanity for 100 years and Affleck will no longer be Batman. I don’t think it’s because WB is pushing Ben out of the roll. Ben seems to be dealing with a lot of stuff in his personal life and I’m sure he wants to work on his own projects as a filmmaker. Every time I see him in a promotional interview he looks exhausted/depressed. It’s like he’s become Bruce Wayne in real life.


Neither is really retconnable.

First off, Wonder Woman simply hasn't been a public hero since WW1. That can't change. Superman changed the landscape, exposed society to the concept of super-powered beings and "brought them out of the woodwork". WW hasn't been publicly fighting crime for 100 years, and she can't have been around for MoS just letting Zod invade. She was hidden and/or busy for a reason. That must remain the same.

Second, a mere change of face with everything else being the same makes no sense for a time-travel retcon. "Oh you're still Bruce and Batman is virtually the same but...your face is different...where's the other Bruce..." there's no elegant way to depict that. There's no reason for the same human being to change face while everyone else remains the same. It is a problem because Ben is going through some stuff but I think a positive reaction to JL, along with Reeves taking the helm, will allow it to be a positive part of his life instead of this huge pressure combined with negative press.




> What do. you guys think of this:
> 
> https://pagesix.com/2017/11/11/gal-g...ratner-is-out/
> 
> Gal Gadot is threatening to quit the DCEU if Warner Bros. doesn't fire Brett Rather. I applaud her.
> 
> Spoiler: It's going to work, too.


I'm impressed.

----------


## Frontier

> Second, a mere change of face with everything else being the same makes no sense for a time-travel retcon. "Oh you're still Bruce and Batman is virtually the same but...your face is different...where's the other Bruce..." there's no elegant way to depict that. There's no reason for the same human being to change face while everyone else remains the same. It is a problem because Ben is going through some stuff but I think a positive reaction to JL, along with Reeves taking the helm, will allow it to be a positive part of his life instead of this huge pressure combined with negative press.


Well if Flashpoint is anything like the comic then Barry reverting time back is enough to somehow screw everything up, so Barry reseting things again and we get a new (and probably younger) version of Batman doesn't seem that much of a stretch from what the movie will have already dealt with by that point.

Honestly, I can't see why they would be doing Flashpoint so early unless they intended to make at least some changes to the setting or timeline, or maybe Johns is just really pumped to adapt more of his stories or they just want to quickly get that storyline out of the way and move on from the "dead mom, imprisoned dad" stuff.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Well if Flashpoint is anything like the comic then Barry reverting time back is enough to somehow screw everything up, so Barry reseting things again and we get a new (and probably younger) version of Batman doesn't seem that much of a stretch from what the movie will have already dealt with by that point.
> 
> Honestly, I can't see why they would be doing Flashpoint so early unless they intended to make at least some changes to the setting or timeline, or maybe Johns is just really pumped to adapt more of his stories or they just want to quickly get that storyline out of the way and move on from the "dead mom, imprisoned dad" stuff.


Younger I could see. That would be a better explanation. Maybe Todd is alive in this one then too or something, I'd need a meaningful retcon to go with it for Batman. And I would love for them to solve the dead mom thing in a single story.

----------


## Elmo

> She's just saving face like every other actress. It would look _really_ bad if she starred in WW2 with him involved in spite of all the claims. If the public never knew about the sexual harassment stuff it would have been business as usual. 
> 
> Remind you, she is still working with Ben Affleck and he's only apologized because his demons finally caught up with him.


Ben Affleck didn't do anything

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Ben Affleck didn't do anything


Well that's not true according to several women.

----------


## Cmbmool

> Neither is really retconnable.
> 
> First off, Wonder Woman simply hasn't been a public hero since WW1. That can't change. Superman changed the landscape, exposed society to the concept of super-powered beings and "brought them out of the woodwork". WW hasn't been publicly fighting crime for 100 years, and she can't have been around for MoS just letting Zod invade. She was hidden and/or busy for a reason. That must remain the same.


So wouldn't this keep the whole "Wonder Woman DIDN'T walk away from humanity recon intact ?

----------


## Elmo

> Well that's not true according to several women.


Who are these several women? I have seen two; both of which can be interpreted as something completely different. In fact one of them is on camera and completely not what the victim described. There's no real evidence and bombardment of allegations as there are with Spacey and Weinstein; and Affleck's responses show his true character and his views on the matter. In fact, one of the allegations was completely denied by the alleged victim in the situation. Therefore I'm not buying it

----------


## Lightning Rider

> So wouldn't this keep the whole "Wonder Woman DIDN'T walk away from humanity recon intact ?


It's a line open to interpretation. Did she walk away back to Themyscira and completely leave man's world? Probably not given the ending of Wonder Woman. But did she start intervening in every human conflict and being a public superhero? Probably not, because WW2 still happened, the Cold War and tons of genocides still happened without her appearance, and Zod invaded without her showing up. Her absence simply can't be retocnned. She can be operating in the shadows or busy fighting other monsters and whatnot.




> Who are these several women? I have seen two; both of which can be interpreted as something completely different. In fact one of them is on camera and completely not what the victim described. There's no real evidence and bombardment of allegations as there are with Spacey and Weinstein; and Affleck's responses show his true character and his views on the matter. In fact, one of the allegations was completely denied by the alleged victim in the situation. Therefore I'm not buying it


You not buying it and stating factually Ben didn't do anything are two very different things.




> Neat fan-made recap of all the DC films leading up to this moment  (even Suicide Squad! :P)


Man this reminded me they nailed so much of the universe for me.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Innocent until proven guilty is in a court of law, not a Hollywood system that suppressed molestation, rape and harassment. These are companies, not citizens. *Shes asking one of them to abide by their internal policies.*


If it's company policy IE WB to sever ties with an entity or persons accused of something until a verdict is reached, then sure, but do you have a source on that protocol? If not, I remain skeptical.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> If it's company policy IE WB to sever ties with an entity or persons accused of something until a verdict is reached, then sure, but do you have a source on that protocol? If not, I remain skeptical.


No, believe it or not I do not have their sexual harassment policy handy. However, Gal is forcing them to look into whether or not protocols were EVER followed with any of the allegations, because the common thread here is that there are systematic cover-ups and abuses of power to keep this stuff from every getting documented.

----------


## Robotman

Wow I just releaized that Pixar’s Coco comes out on the 22nd. That gives Justice League less than one week before it gets some major competition. Not to mention the fact that Thor is still bringing in a ton of money. Disney is going right at Justice League. This could definitely hurt the final box office tally.

----------


## golgi

> Wow I just releaized that Pixars Coco comes out on the 22nd. That gives Justice League less than one week before it gets some major competition. Not to mention the fact that Thor is still bringing in a ton of money. Disney is going right at Justice League. This could definitely hurt the final box office tally.


Meh, Thor has already brought in most of its money. Coco? I doubt it'll hurt JL at all. If the movie gets GOOD WOM, competition won't hurt it too much. Remember a movie called Wonder Woman? Basically, destroyed ALL competition.

----------


## Carabas

> Meh, Thor has already brought in most of its money. Coco? I doubt it'll hurt JL at all. If the movie gets GOOD WOM, competition won't hurt it too much. Remember a movie called Wonder Woman? Basically, destroyed ALL competition.


But Wonder Woman was good. This is Snyder.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Meh, Thor has already brought in most of its money. Coco? I doubt it'll hurt JL at all. If the movie gets GOOD WOM, competition won't hurt it too much. Remember a movie called Wonder Woman? Basically, destroyed ALL competition.


Right. Also Pixar's last November release in 2015 didn't do too well, opened domestically just under 40m.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> But Wonder Woman was good. This is Snyder.


Thanks for the laugh

But yeah, WW doesn't have any bearing on JL. Hopefully JL is good and has some decent legs to take advantage of that lack of competition.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Wow I just releaized that Pixar’s Coco comes out on the 22nd. That gives Justice League less than one week before it gets some major competition. Not to mention the fact that Thor is still bringing in a ton of money. Disney is going right at Justice League. This could definitely hurt the final box office tally.


Coco looks pretty cool. I like that they are exploring different cultures too. As far as competition, are they really vying for the same demographic? I guess it'll steal family movie goers maybe?

----------


## Bukdiah

> But Wonder Woman was good. This is Snyder.


Ahem, in Leonidas voice, "THIS IS SNYDAAAAAA!"

----------


## Frontier

> But Wonder Woman was good. This is Snyder.


And Whedon  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_The new Batman movie being developed by Matt Reeves (War for the Planet of the Apes) is “something I’m contemplating,” says Affleck, who originally was tapped to direct. “You don’t do it forever, so I want to find a graceful and cool way to segue out of it.”_

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...oes/856019001/

----------


## Serpico Jones

> _The new Batman movie being developed by Matt Reeves (War for the Planet of the Apes) is “something I’m contemplating,” says Affleck, who originally was tapped to direct. “You don’t do it forever, so I want to find a graceful and cool way to segue out of it.”_
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...oes/856019001/


Sounds like he’s done.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Sounds like he’s done.


Can't say I'm sad to see him go. Batman should be able to keep his hands to himself.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> But Wonder Woman was good. This is Snyder.


Snyder's last movie was his highest grossing and even out grossed WW worldwide too.

----------


## Johnny

> _The new Batman movie being developed by Matt Reeves (War for the Planet of the Apes) is “something I’m contemplating,” says Affleck, who originally was tapped to direct. “You don’t do it forever, so I want to find a graceful and cool way to segue out of it.”_
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...oes/856019001/


Well, good riddance. I like Affleck's Batman but if he doesn't want to play the character anymore, that's his decision. I never thought he would be Hugh Jackman or RDJ but I didn't think he'd want to be done with the role so quickly either. And he said it a few days before JL hits. Clearly the guy doesn't care. Maybe now they can start looking for someone who'd actually be dedicated to playing the character for an extended period of time.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*'Wonder Woman 2' Release Date Pushed Up*




> The sequel to Wonder Woman is arriving in theaters even sooner than expected.
> 
> Warner Bros. has moved the released of Wonder Woman 2 up by six weeks, from December 13, 2019, to November 1, 2019.


 Source

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> *'Wonder Woman 2' Release Date Pushed Up*
> 
> 
> 
>  Source


Should stay a summer movie imo

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *'Wonder Woman 2' Release Date Pushed Up*
> 
> 
> 
>  Source


To be expected once Disney dropped a Star Wars movie into that month. 

I do agreen with HandofPrometheus, though. Wonder Woman is probably a better Summer movie. But we'll see.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Meh, Thor has already brought in most of its money. Coco? I doubt it'll hurt JL at all. If the movie gets GOOD WOM, competition won't hurt it too much. Remember a movie called Wonder Woman? Basically, destroyed ALL competition.


WW wasn't Snyder or have all the problems in production JL has had also WW opened only with Captain Underpants in it's first week. It bet The Mummy when it opened the following week which was a failure of a film. Then WW lost the top spot the following week to Pixar's Cars 3. Justice League will make money but losing the top spot that early isn't good because it stops momentum and Coco could do that. WW and Spider-Man Homecoming did slow burns during the summer slowly taking in more and more money but JL has only till December 15 IMO because Last Jedi will probably kill all it's remaining business. Which isn't good given it's reported to have a 300 million dollar budget and once you add marketing and advertising and the theater take this film has to make a lot just to break even.

----------


## Robotman

> WW wasn't Snyder or have all the problems in production JL has had also WW opened only with Captain Underpants in it's first week. It bet The Mummy when it opened the following week which was a failure of a film. Then WW lost the top spot the following week to Pixar's Cars 3. Justice League will make money but losing the top spot that early isn't good because it stops momentum and Coco could do that. WW and Spider-Man Homecoming did slow burns during the summer slowly taking in more and more money but JL has only till December 15 IMO because Last Jedi will probably kill all it's remaining business. Which isn't good given it's reported to have a 300 million dollar budget and once you add marketing and advertising and the theater take this film has to make a lot just to break even.


Yeah especially since WB needs this thing to bring in over $900 mil to be considered a success. It’s really scary that it won’t even get a full week to itself.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> To be expected once Disney dropped a Star Wars movie into that month. 
> 
> I do agreen with HandofPrometheus, though. Wonder Woman is probably a better Summer movie. But we'll see.


They must be confident JL will do well in November then!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Yeah especially since WB needs this thing to bring in over $900 mil to be considered a success. It’s really scary that it won’t even get a full week to itself.


You guys are worrying for no reason, this isn't the summer. The last thanksgiving Pixar film did luke warm and besides Coco won't be released everywhere internationally. Coco has less appeal than a dinosaur too, given a choice I'm sure most kids will pick JL over Coco.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> _The new Batman movie being developed by Matt Reeves (War for the Planet of the Apes) is something Im contemplating, says Affleck, who originally was tapped to direct. You dont do it forever, so I want to find a graceful and cool way to segue out of it._
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...oes/856019001/


Trying to stay optimistic. He's staying non-committal and probably careful given the atmosphere in Hollywood right now. Just give us the solo and JL 2 PLEASE.

----------


## Bossace

> You guys are worrying for no reason, this isn't the summer. The last thanksgiving Pixar film did luke warm and besides Coco won't be released everywhere internationally. Coco has less appeal than a dinosaur too, given a choice I'm sure most kids will pick JL over Coco.


Coco is doing great with reviews and I have a feeling this movie is really going to take off and do phenominal. Still seeing this movie friday morning but we shoudln’t count coco out just because how the dinosuar pixar movie did.

----------


## Troian

So the story wasn't true, it makes sense actually. Gal already likely renewed her contract once WW became a giant success and even if she did want out she would probably be obligated to appear due to contract. I'm still gonna side eye some of her comments on all the harassment allegations happening though. 

And it got bumped up to November 1st.

----------


## Elmo

I really think Dick Grayson should be the DCEU Batman. It's either that or they just reboot/retcon. I say introduce Dick in Nightwing and have a sequel to the Ben Affleck solo Batman with Batfleck passing down the torch.

So Ben Affleck stars in BvS, JL, the Batman, JL 2, and the Batman 2 with Dick Grayson taking the cowl.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Coco is doing great with reviews and I have a feeling this movie is really going to take off and do phenominal. Still seeing this movie friday morning but we shoudln’t count coco out just because how the dinosuar pixar movie did.


Reviews for kids movies don't matter much though it's always about appeal, why else do film sequels like "The nutjob 2" exists?

----------


## nightrider

> So the story wasn't true, it makes sense actually. Gal already likely renewed her contract once WW became a giant success and even if she did want out she would probably be obligated to appear due to contract. I'm still gonna side eye some of her comments on all the harassment allegations happening though. 
> 
> And it got bumped up to November 1st.


Yeah I understand ratpac dune was always the financing arm and never had producing credits, would be very silly for gal to fuss over someone who is so far away in the background.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder how they'll deal with Ben leaving the role...(Cough)Flashpoint(Cough).

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

More and more positive JL reactions coming through  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Elmo

I'm so excited to see this movie!!! I got free passes to see it TOMORROW from WB!!!! I'll let you friendos know what I think  :Smile:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> More and more positive JL reactions coming through .


I'm seeing some pretty negative ones.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm seeing some pretty negative ones.


Eh those are mostly from trades and some of them are cryptic, which is like whatever the only reactions I care for are fellow fans. Everywhere I go people are just so obsessed with the damn RT rating it is annoying. Glad this thread hasn't devolved into that.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Welp, looks like spoilers and leaks are starting to surface don't wanna risk so chow! See ya'll on Friday! #ALL IN

----------


## Jaddor

I know this must be a beating a dead horse question but why did they ever cast a guy as old as ben to play batman.it was always a mistake.

bale was in his late 20s during batman begins.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I know this must be a beating a dead horse question but why did they ever cast a guy as old as ben to play batman.it was always a mistake.
> 
> bale was in his late 20s during batman begins.


Because Frank Miller attracted people to the genre who pretty much didn't read another comic after TDKR.

----------


## Elmo

> I know this must be a beating a dead horse question but why did they ever cast a guy as old as ben to play batman.it was always a mistake.
> 
> bale was in his late 20s during batman begins.


Zack Snyder's idea from the jump was to portray Batman as an aging more intense version of the character, "at the end of his rope," partly to adapt Frank Miller's version and also to show a version of the character that audiences weren't completely accustomed to

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I know this must be a beating a dead horse question but why did they ever cast a guy as old as ben to play batman.it was always a mistake.
> 
> bale was in his late 20s during batman begins.


Star power. Plus? They had it in mind that Batman was going to be older and more cynical than Superman in thus universe. The whole idea was that Batman has been fighting a nonstop war for twenty years and has stopped believing that things can really get better.

That's harder to do with a younger Batman. It's also harder to justify a young Batman trying to kill Superman. He's been through so much that he's gotten to the point where lethal force looks like the best option.

----------


## Carabas

> I know this must be a beating a dead horse question but why did they ever cast a guy as old as ben to play batman.it was always a mistake.
> 
> bale was in his late 20s during batman begins.


Is this a trick question?

----------


## byrd156

> Is this a trick question?


Basing the DCEU Batman on the Miller Batman was a terrible mistake.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Old batman was a dumb idea. Way too soon. Unless they introduce that de aging machine from n Snyder run.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Ben’s age isn’t the problem, it’s his personal issues. He could play Batman for another 7 years beleivably.

----------


## Lightning Rider

There are CBR posters watching Justice League this. Very. Second.

Motherf@!*%#$.

----------


## Ascended

> There are CBR posters watching Justice League this. Very. Second.
> 
> Motherf@!*%#$.


Lol. 

Does it burn?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Lol. 
> 
> Does it burn?


My torture is prolooonged

----------


## Buried Alien

> My torture is prolooonged


Hang in there.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## kalai

well, there are about more than ten fan screening tonight, so that shouldn't even be a surprise

----------


## Ascended

> My torture is prolooonged


Bwhahahaha!!!! 

Im going to laugh at your pain to distract myself from the fact that Im starting to get a little excited about this movie and the next week is gonna feel awfully long.  :Smile:

----------


## BatmanJones

Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...

I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.

To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.

But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.

My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.

So that's where I'm coming from so you know how to take any comments I might make about the movie if I'm asked about it by anyone here. I will not spoil anything and I'll err on the side of extreme caution that way. Not because I care about any embargo but because I care about you all having the best experience with it as you can.

Refresher: I'm impossible to please, I typically really dislike Snyder's superhero movies and his philosophy (such as it is) toward them, and no property from DC or anyone else matters more to me than JUSTICE LEAGUE. Since I was a small child and I'm 48.

So before I open this up to an AMA if anyone has questions for me (I won't spoil publicly or by PM so no reason to PM) I'll give you my most basic reaction.

I FREAKING LOVED IT. UNRESERVEDLY.

And what a relief that is! So AMA.

I cannot wait to see this movie again. I'm almost sure it's my favorite comic book movie ever.

[Edit to remove profane word inspired by my excitement.]

----------


## The Kid

> Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...
> 
> I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.
> 
> To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.
> 
> But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.
> 
> My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.
> ...


Really good to hear man. I remember you were one of the people who full-on shared my opinion of BvS so I'm glad that it seems to be much better

----------


## BatmanJones

> I know this must be a beating a dead horse question but why did they ever cast a guy as old as ben to play batman.it was always a mistake.
> 
> bale was in his late 20s during batman begins.


Just back from advance screening. Affleck was the best live-action Batman ever. The casting on this (great) film is really amazing.

----------


## Assam

> Just back from advance screening. Affleck was the best live-action Batman ever. The casting on this (great) film is really amazing.


Oh god you liked it.  :EEK!:  I know we agree on some things (Apparently we both have lots of ideas for what we'd do if we could write The Geek) but this does not bode well.

EDIT: Actually, looking again, our opinions on every other DCEU film match up. Maybe this is one area where we see eye to eye.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...
> 
> I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.
> 
> To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.
> 
> But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.
> 
> My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.
> ...


That is great to hear. And I really admire your DC dedication. Ten to twenty titles every Wednesday for 40 years? Damn. I'm almost 34 and have been doing 5-10 since I was 12 and thought my consistency was on another level. 

In terms of the film, will Superman fans be overjoyed? And as impossible as it is to predict, do you think the film will be "fresh" on RT?

----------


## BatmanJones

> Basing the DCEU Batman on the Miller Batman was a terrible mistake.


I do agree with this. But I can't imagine anyone but Affleck doing it now that I've seen his Batman in JL. It's just perfect. Most comics-accurate and most fun portrayal of Batman (or as I saw someone say "most 'Batman' Batman") in live action to date.

When I saw this movie I had the distinct feeling that I was seeing Batman from the comics in live action for the first time. That's quite a feat considering the great actors that have played him in the past.

But this movie isn't trying to prove that everything had a real-world, grounded explanation (as Nolan's did); and it isn't style over substance as nearly every Burton movie is; this was Batman REALLY being Batman.

It's impossible to really get across how true this is of all six members of the team but you'll know it when you see it, I think.

And Henry Cavill (finally) IS Superman.

The same's true of the rest of the cast. They get what makes these characters tick and it's the best thing about the movie.

----------


## Assam

> And Henry Cavill (finally) IS Superman.
> .


Legends of Tomorrow has convinced me that Brandon Routh could have been the greatest Superman ever if he'd been given anything at all to work with. That said, I've always seen potential in Cavill as well so hopefully it has been tapped here.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...
> 
> I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.
> 
> To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.
> 
> But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.
> 
> My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.
> ...


Wow. I remember you and I butting heads many a time over BvS, so an endorsement from you is definitely no small thing. I swear, sometimes, I would see your comments on BvS and I was almost certain you were just exaggerating as a form of trolling. 

Glad you liked it. Now I'm more eager than ever to see it on Friday!  :Smile:

----------


## BatmanJones

> Really good to hear man. I remember you were one of the people who full-on shared my opinion of BvS so I'm glad that it seems to be much better


I do worry a little that I'm getting people's hopes too high and that they might be disappointed as a result.

This is purely MY opinion. The reasons I put all the personal background in there were threefold: I wanted people to be able to read my take in context, I wanted people to understand that my reaction was HIGHLY unlikely in its positivity, and I wanted to emphasize that these are only my opinions and may not be widely shared.

I hope you have even half the enthusiasm for it that I did. Can't wait to read your response to the movie!

----------


## BatmanJones

> Oh god you liked it.  I know we agree on some things (Apparently we both have lots of ideas for what we'd do if we could write The Geek) but this does not bode well.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, looking again, our opinions on every other DCEU film match up. Maybe this is one area where we see eye to eye.


I hope it is because I hope you'll get to enjoy it as much as I did.  :Smile:

----------


## BatmanJones

> That is great to hear. And I really admire your DC dedication. Ten to twenty titles every Wednesday for 40 years? Damn. I'm almost 34 and have been doing 5-10 since I was 12 and thought my consistency was on another level. 
> 
> In terms of the film, will Superman fans be overjoyed? And as impossible as it is to predict, do you think the film will be "fresh" on RT?


That's some pretty serious dedication. It's great to chat with the dedicated fans on this forum. It's the best forum out there for that of which I'm aware.

WRT your Superman/RT questions I would say the answers are YES and YES.

I am a huge Superman fan and was bored and bummed out by MoS and I really hated BvS but not for any of the pat reasons that lovers of the film ascribe to haters of the film.

For me, this was Superman and it made me so freaking happy.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Just back from advance screening. Affleck was the best live-action Batman ever. The casting on this (great) film is really amazing.


Glad you enjoyed it, hope I do too. (And please vote!)

http://community.comicbookresources....fter-watching)

You think there's enough themes from MoS/BvS carried over to also please fans of those films? Most of us don't mind more different things, but are afraid of certain things being completely taken away. (No spoilers please obviously and thanks)

----------


## BatmanJones

> Wow. I remember you and I butting heads many a time over BvS, so an endorsement from you is definitely no small thing. I swear, sometimes, I would see your comments on BvS and I was almost certain you were just exaggerating as a form of trolling. 
> 
> Glad you liked it. Now I'm more eager than ever to see it on Friday!



I'm not a troll and never have been one. I'm appreciative to be part of this community and never mean to let my passions get the better of me in a way that rubs people wrong though I repeatedly fall down on that. (I guess it's like the t-shirts say: "Dr. Manhattan isn't finished with me yet."  :Smile:  )

I'm glad I could help get you pumped for the movie.

I'm seriously proselytizing about it to everyone, even the total strangers that served me at the pizza joint and then the coffee shop on the way home.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Glad you enjoyed it, hope I do too. (And please vote!)
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....fter-watching)
> 
> You think there's enough themes from MoS/BvS carried over to also please fans of those films? Most of us don't mind more different things, but are afraid of certain things being completely taken away. (No spoilers please obviously and thanks)


I can't answer on behalf of fans of BvS but maybe one of these things will be helpful:

- The friend I went with LOOOOOVED BvS and MoS and he loved JL as much as I did
- Throughout the film I had an internal monologue going that basically was me retroactively appreciating a lot about BvS and MoS and thinking about that thing the Snyder's continually said about it being a trilogy and Superman coming into his own in the third film and thinking of how it suddenly felt so true and worked SO well.

Hopefully you'll take both points as good signs and more hopefully you'll feel the same way after seeing JL.

I really hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Back from watching JL, and I can say that I really enjoyed it. There's some issues I had, but nothing too crazy. I'd give it an 8-8.5/10.

As you guys know, I very much liked BvS:UE as well, so that's where I'm coming from. I'll also an AMA, if wanna ask questions.

----------


## Bossace

> Back from watching JL, and I can say that I really enjoyed it. There's some issues I had, but nothing too crazy. I'd give it an 8-8.5/10.
> 
> As you guys know, I very much liked BvS:UE as well, so that's where I'm coming from. I'll also an AMA, if wanna ask questions.


in a spoiler free way, what would you say were some issues for you?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I can't answer on behalf of fans of BvS but maybe one of these things will be helpful:
> 
> - The friend I went with LOOOOOVED BvS and MoS and he loved JL as much as I did
> - Throughout the film I had an internal monologue going that basically was me retroactively appreciating a lot about BvS and MoS and thinking about that thing the Snyder's continually said about it being a trilogy and Superman coming into his own in the third film and thinking of how it suddenly felt so true and worked SO well.
> 
> Hopefully you'll take both points as good signs and more hopefully you'll feel the same way after seeing JL.
> 
> I really hope you enjoy it as much as I did.


Sounds promising, thanks. I'm pumped.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> in a spoiler free way, what would you say were some issues for you?


Honestly it was really the editing in some places, making it clear that the movie was cut up, and the villain.

Oh and a small nitpick about Superman's return, but that's it. Honestly, even tho Steppenwolf was lean he was portrayed better than most CBM villains. I'd say he's on par with Ego for the year.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Looking forward to hitting the comic shop (within walking distance of the theater!) on Thursday and then seeing the film. 

Got the same Flash shirt I wore to BvS lined up for the occasion. 

(on a side note, I wonder how much people will be showing up in costume, when I went to see Wonder Woman there was like an entire row of Dianas!)

----------


## BatmanJones

> (on a side note, I wonder how much people will be showing up in costume, when I went to see Wonder Woman there was like an entire row of Dianas!)


I got to see a full-on Affleck Batman suit on a guy that was about 6'4 and stayed in character for hours while we waited in line.

Also saw a perfect movie Flash costume (the guy told me it cost him around $300 on the internet which blew my mind- it was perfect) and a guy in a very full-on Wonder Woman costume complete with sword down the back.

Those were the only three of consequence but they were each excellent and contributed a lot to the enthusiasm of the already quite enthused people waiting in line for hours to get a good seat.

----------


## MDR123

> Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...
> 
> I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.
> 
> To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.
> 
> But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.
> 
> My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.
> ...


Just saw it as well. Drop me a line, would love to get your full review and bounce some thoughts off of you if you're up for it sometime. Glad you enjoyed! I'm going Thursday with some work buds. And probably again soon.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Throughout the film I had an internal monologue going that basically was me retroactively appreciating a lot about BvS and MoS and thinking about that thing the Snyder's continually said about it being a trilogy and Superman coming into his own in the third film and thinking of how it suddenly felt so true and worked SO well.


This is great, especially since I largely agreed with you on the fundamentals of Superman's characterisation and disliked MoS for many of the same reasons you did, but was still more optimistic about Snyder's direction for him in future movies. So glad it paid off.  :Big Grin:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> This is great, especially since I largely agreed with you on the fundamentals of Superman's characterisation and disliked MoS for many of the same reasons you did, but was still more optimistic about Snyder's direction for him in future movies. So glad it paid off.


It definitely played off, and JL characterizations of Bruce and Diana really make BvS look better in retrospect.

Also, that whole "retcon" of WW's past? Yeah, it's perfectly explained in this movie and makes sense for both WW and BvS.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...
> 
> I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.
> 
> To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.
> 
> But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.
> 
> My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.
> ...


Very glad you loved it! Makes me even more excited for Friday!




> Back from watching JL, and I can say that I really enjoyed it. There's some issues I had, but nothing too crazy. I'd give it an 8-8.5/10.
> 
> As you guys know, I very much liked BvS:UE as well, so that's where I'm coming from. I'll also an AMA, if wanna ask questions.


This is good news. If someone like you ( who along with myself felt like the only two who defended BvS when it came out last year...We were in the trenches together! LOL) and someone like BatmanJones who didn't like BvS both liked it, then WB I think pulled off a miracle here and possibly heal the divided DCEU fanbase. To hear that it legit feels like a continuation of the story of MOS and BvS without betraying either and stepping into a new direction gives me even more hope.

----------


## NeathBlue

Great to hear positive views from people who appreciate what these films are about, couldn’t care less what the ratings are on rotten tomatoes.

One question for all who’ve seen it, I read on a review on BC a few days ago that you need to wait till after the credits have rolled... Was there anything of any significance?

----------


## Cmbmool

I hate to ask this, but was there ANY MENTIONING of the Martian Manhunter in the movie or are we going to be going the Ant-man route in showing that piece of Comic history at another film ?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I hate to ask this, but was there ANY MENTIONING of the Martian Manhunter in the movie or are we going to be going the Ant-man route in showing that piece of Comic history at another film ?


Answering that would probably count as a spoiler. You're probably better off PM-ing BatmanJones or TooFlyToFail.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

For those that have seen it, is Cavill's mustache CGI a problem?

----------


## Denirac

In a Spoiler Free way, does Superman have plenty of Screen Time because I've grown concerned he's only in it for like 10 mins at the end.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Answering that would probably count as a spoiler. You're probably better off PM-ing BatmanJones or TooFlyToFail.


Good call.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Just home from the screening in Houston. Before I give my reaction let me let you know a little bit about where I was coming from, what my tastes have been in the past, so you know how to take my comments...
> 
> I liked Wonder Woman a lot. I disliked Man of Steel, I hated Batman v Superman, I thought Suicide Squad was a silly trifle of a failure.
> 
> To be fair to the directors of these films my hopes are set so high for them it's almost impossible for them to meet my expectations. And so it is that, though I am a DC-only fan that has always bought at least 10-20 DC titles each Wednesday without fail for over 40 years (I'm 48). And while I love Batman enough that it's a nickname a lot of friends use for me and a lot of friends buy me gifts to do with Batman because they're so sure he's my favorite.
> 
> But no single character is my favorite. My favorite has always been the Justice League.
> 
> My hopes have been so high for these movies (the DC ones - I watch some of the Marvel ones but I don't care about them - I care an unhealthy much about the DC ones) that the following is literally true. Of every DC movie ever made I've only walked out of six of them in the past that I was satisfied with and only two that I was wholly satisfied with. I was wholly satisfied by Superman: The Movie and Superman II. And I guess the best way to peg my feelings about Wonder Woman is that I was never disappointed by it. That's saying a LOT for me. As I've copped to, I'm impossible to please. The three Nolan Batman movies were also all movies I loved but apart from Heath Ledger's Joker (the best portrayal of any DC character in live-action ever and I don't think Ledger can be surpassed that way) I had some misgivings.
> ...


Does the movie spend a lot of time setting up or hinting at sequels and spinoffs?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I hate to ask this, but was there ANY MENTIONING of the Martian Manhunter in the movie or are we going to be going the Ant-man route in showing that piece of Comic history at another film ?


Nope, and it's kinda too early for him.

There's a hint to a different space bound hero, tho...

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> For those that have seen it, is Cavill's mustache CGI a problem?


In the first Supes scene, kinda, but after that nope.




> In a Spoiler Free way, does Superman have plenty of Screen Time because I've grown concerned he's only in it for like 10 mins at the end.


He got appropriate screen time for the story told.

----------


## Bossace

I read wolf and cyborg were the weak links in the movie, how true is this? If possible spoiler free can you explain?

----------


## Lightning Rider

lol @ the line we're all trying to tread here. "TELL US BUT DON'T. (BUT DO. (BUT PLS DON'T.))"

----------


## Bossace

> lol @ the line we're all trying to tread here. "TELL US BUT DON'T. (BUT DO. (BUT PLS DON'T.))"


The wait til friday morning is a long wait haha

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I read wolf and cyborg were the weak links in the movie, how true is this? If possible spoiler free can you explain?


Cyborg is not a weak link, and got more character work than Aquaman, honestly. All the heroes were good.

Steppenwolf was thin, character-wise, but he's portrayed well as a villain, and doesn't make stupid decisions becuz plot.

He's the best CBM villain this year, IMO, because of that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Great to hear positive views from people who appreciate what these films are about, couldnt care less what the ratings are on rotten tomatoes.
> 
> One question for all whove seen it, I read on a review on BC a few days ago that you need to wait till after the credits have rolled... Was there anything of any significance?


Yes, don't move from that chair because.....hooo, boy....HOOO, BOY!!!

That's my reaction to each of the post credit scenes. These are the best PC scenes we've ever had.

----------


## byrd156

> I do agree with this. But I can't imagine anyone but Affleck doing it now that I've seen his Batman in JL. It's just perfect. Most comics-accurate and most fun portrayal of Batman (or as I saw someone say "most 'Batman' Batman") in live action to date.
> 
> When I saw this movie I had the distinct feeling that I was seeing Batman from the comics in live action for the first time. That's quite a feat considering the great actors that have played him in the past.
> 
> But this movie isn't trying to prove that everything had a real-world, grounded explanation (as Nolan's did); and it isn't style over substance as nearly every Burton movie is; this was Batman REALLY being Batman.
> 
> It's impossible to really get across how true this is of all six members of the team but you'll know it when you see it, I think.
> 
> And Henry Cavill (finally) IS Superman.
> ...


I think Affleck was perfect casting but the character could have easily been younger than how they were basing him in-universe. I could've gone without the destroyed Wayne Manor and other darker elements like the killing and so forth. All the Frank Millerisms from BVS are my complaints, not Affleck himself.

----------


## NeathBlue

> Yes, don't move from that chair because.....hooo, boy....HOOO, BOY!!!
> 
> That's my reaction to each of the post credit scenes. These are the best PC scenes we've ever had.


Great... Thank you  :Big Grin:

----------


## Bossace

Rotten tomatoes is perdonally delaying their release of the total score and if its fresh/rotten. Yes reviews go live Wednesday and youll be able to read them, but youll have to wait til thursday for the score and rating because now RT will air a See it or Skip it theyre going to start do it for films. Hopefully this doesnt give people the impression WB is locking the score down.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Yes, don't move from that chair because.....hooo, boy....HOOO, BOY!!!
> 
> That's my reaction to each of the post credit scenes. These are the best PC scenes we've ever had.


I didn't think my hype levels could get any higher, but you, sir, have raised them exponentially.

Friday night is so far away...

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Really enjoyed Justice League. Lots of fun, some great moments and they really managed to stick the landing on Superman. Good to have him back!


https://twitter.com/thedanjurgens/st...20787227774976

Dan Jurgens' reaction. I believe this is the first comics writer reaction to JL.




> Rotten tomatoes is perdonally delaying their release of the total score and if its fresh/rotten. Yes reviews go live Wednesday and youll be able to read them, but youll have to wait til thursday for the score and rating because now RT will air a See it or Skip it theyre going to start do it for films. Hopefully this doesnt give people the impression WB is locking the score down.


A few of those have popped up already, unfortunately. (I don't think WB even outright owns RT or has a say in this, RT is probably just trying to boost traffic of their show)

----------


## BatmanJones

> In a Spoiler Free way, does Superman have plenty of Screen Time because I've grown concerned he's only in it for like 10 mins at the end.


He does have plenty of screen time and it's so satisfying!

----------


## BatmanJones

> Does the movie spend a lot of time setting up or hinting at sequels and spinoffs?


In-movie? No, it does something better. It spends its time developing characters and relationships which makes its audience want to see so much more of each and every hero. So it does the job of exciting people for sequels and spinoffs but in the movie itself there isn't setup for future stuff. In a post-credits scene there is some pretty major setting up of the future.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I read wolf and cyborg were the weak links in the movie, how true is this? If possible spoiler free can you explain?


I think it's pretty much out there that Steppenwolf is a pretty forgettable villain. The friend I went with felt Cyborg had the least great scenes of the six in the film but I disagreed. I loved what they did with him.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Yes, don't move from that chair because.....hooo, boy....HOOO, BOY!!!
> 
> That's my reaction to each of the post credit scenes. These are the best PC scenes we've ever had.


I couldn't agree more.

----------


## byrd156

The current JL multiverse event in Injustice 2 makes the DCEU flash costume look so much better than how it has looked so far in the promotional material. The fingerless gloves and the tiny physique of Ezra Miller makes the costume look off to me. In the event it gets rid of the fingerless gloves and he has the bulky physique really makes the costume pop more.

----------


## Jabare

> Cyborg is not a weak link, and got more character work than Aquaman, honestly. All the heroes were good.
> 
> Steppenwolf was thin, character-wise, but he's portrayed well as a villain, and doesn't make stupid decisions becuz plot.
> 
> He's the best CBM villain this year, IMO, because of that.



they cut out over 40 minutes of movie of course he's gonna be thin

----------


## Soubhagya

Is this piece of music in the film? (1:26 onwards)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_6yBZKj-eo

Is this music present?




I am in love with Zimmer's music. Is it present in some form? I especially want MoS main theme. Change it as in the  examples. Its great. But none. I would be dissapointed.

----------


## Elmo

Just saw it and I really liked it!!!! the story is pretty Avengers tier but that's okay. I love love love Superman so much and the DCEU version is my favorite live action portrayal of him; I have a lot of hope for that character and for the DCEU going forward

@Soubhagya:

*spoilers:*
the MoS theme is there along with Batman's from BvS
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Neat Chinese "Countdown" promo poster for JL, reminds me of that one fanmade "Superman's Coffin is All In" mock-up.

----------


## Soubhagya

Well @Elmo pardon me if i am impolite. I simply want to watch the film in the most fresh mind. I am staying away from any spoiler or plot point. In fact i stopped watching any promotional clips after the Chinese/International trailer. Is the spoiler for me? You are so kind.  :Smile:  But i honestly just wanted to know if MoS music is used in some way or not. If its spoilerific info then thank you. I am alright. I should not have bothered you unnecessarily.

And nice to hear from you that you loved the film as well as Superman. This is music to my ears. As my previous posts may signify (if somebody have read that at all) i am a bit ambivalent. I both love as well as tolerate the version if it makes sense. I would continue to defend the two films while criticising what i did not like. Its umm complicated. I want to love him. There's a lot of good. At the same time i am unable to due to things that bother me. Call me mixed to positive to DCEU Superman.

Its great that you enjoyed it! For me its just a couple of days more. Its funny whenever i think this it appears that it has moved farther.

----------


## Elmo

> Well @Elmo pardon me if i am impolite. I simply want to watch the film in the most fresh mind. I am staying away from any spoiler or plot point. In fact i stopped watching any promotional clips after the Chinese/International trailer. Is the spoiler for me? You are so kind.  But i honestly just wanted to know if MoS music is used in some way or not. If its spoilerific info then thank you. I am alright. I should not have bothered you unnecessarily.
> 
> And nice to hear from you that you loved the film as well as Superman. This is music to my ears. As my previous posts may signify (if somebody have read that at all) i am a bit ambivalent. I both love as well as tolerate the version if it makes sense. I would continue to defend the two films while criticising what i did not like. Its umm complicated. I want to love him. There's a lot of good. At the same time i am unable to due to things that bother me. Call me mixed to positive to DCEU Superman.
> 
> Its great that you enjoyed it! For me its just a couple of days more. Its funny whenever i think this it appears that it has moved farther.


No bother at all friend--I was just answering your question with no spoilers involved, just didn't want to possibly spoil anyone else. I've sent you a personal message with the answer.  :Smile: 

Superman has always been one of my all time favorites, and for some reason Cavill just _feels_ like Superman. I truly care about him and all that he goes through.

----------


## Soubhagya

> No bother at all friend--I was just answering your question with no spoilers involved, just didn't want to possibly spoil anyone else. I've sent you a personal message with the answer. 
> 
> Superman has always been one of my all time favorites, and for some reason Cavill just _feels_ like Superman. I truly care about him and all that he goes through.


You are nice. Some fans want to go into the film as fresh as possible. It was kind of a mistake to ask about music here. Next time i want to know something specific i will PM either you or BatmanJones or TooFlyToFail. Which may not haapen because i know the very basic stuff i was anxious about. Rather be surprised in the film. Its just a couple of days more.  :Smile:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Also, remember how people complained about the OST being dull, mediocre, and not memorable?

Yeah, it's exactly that. I was in a screening with super fans, and only 4 people (including me) noticed the 89 Batman and Williams Supes renditions. I'm not even a fan of those themes (dont kill me). It was that bad. He also neutered the WW theme. Honestly, I forgot there was an OST for most of the movie. 

Never let this man touch another DC movie. The only time I felt hype was when the Mos theme kicked briefly.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Also, remember how people complained about the OST being dull, mediocre, and not memorable?
> 
> Yeah, it's exactly that. I was in a screening with super fans, and only 4 people (including me) noticed the 89 Batman and Williams Supes renditions. I'm not even a fan of those themes (dont kill me). It was that bad. He also neutered the WW theme. Honestly, I forgot there was an OST for most of the movie. 
> 
> Never let this man touch another DC movie. The only time I felt hype was when the Mos theme kicked briefly.



That's a shame. I wanted the music to be great. I don't know about you but i really love the Avengers score. I wanted something memorable like that. This is the first time i am going to see Justice League. Something i wanted to see since i was a kid. Its an event of a lifetime. Alas! There's nothing exciting. There should have been at least one good piece. But its boring. Perhaps the next one will do better. I don't think they will return to Elfman.

Danny Elfman was phenomenal in Spider-man. I felt his Avengers 2 was fine. But this one is a let down. Nothing against you about Batman or Superman themes. Everyone have their preferences. John Williams is one of my favorite themes of all time. Its not even nostagia. I watched the film after MoS. (I always mention this. Whenever i say i love John Williams, 'nostalgia pandering' is brought up. Sadly). Batman is good. But I am not particularly fond of that. Its not good news. I will always like some Williams in all future films with Zimmer thrown in too. This may mean no more Williams in future films.

Neutering WW is the worst. WW is so fantastic. It is not needed for much time. Why didn't they use it as it is? 

In the end i may never know. Good film means i can forgive all this. Its still dissapointing nonetheless.  :Frown:

----------


## Pinsir

The reviews are out, pretty much as expected.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The reviews are out, pretty much as expected.


It sounds like the WB mandate of 2hrs might bite them in the ass because a lot of the narrative issues come from the fact the a lot of the movie is CLEARLY cut.

This coming from someone who enjoyed the movie.

----------


## Carabas

> Also, remember how people complained about the OST being dull, mediocre, and not memorable?
> 
> Yeah, it's exactly that. I was in a screening with super fans, and only 4 people (including me) noticed the 89 Batman and Williams Supes renditions.


Then again, a large portion of the audience isn't that into film music scores that they would recognise those teams under any circumstances.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It sounds like the WB mandate of 2hrs might bite them in the ass because a lot of the narrative issues come from the fact the a lot of the movie is CLEARLY cut.
> 
> This coming from someone who enjoyed the movie.


Mark Hughes from Forbes argued that it was better to exclude the subplots and make the film leaner, and how that would turn out to be more crowd pleasing. He took some negative examples from BvS that JL avoided to help make his point. The general consensus is that this is tooled to be an audience pleaser, so let's see how that decision ends up working in the long run.

----------


## Pinsir

> Mark Hughes from Forbes argued that it was better to exclude the subplots and make the film leaner, and how that would turn out to be more crowd pleasing. He took some negative examples from BvS that JL avoided to help make his point. The general consensus is that this is tooled to be an audience pleaser, so let's see how that decision ends up working in the long run.


Just wait for the extended edition!

----------


## adrikito

> The reviews are out, pretty much as expected.


I saw many reviews... I think that I will expect for Aquaman movie for see Jason Momoa...

1510733517450.jpg

----------


## Carabas

> Mark Hughes from Forbes argued that it was better to exclude the subplots and make the film leaner, and how that would turn out to be more crowd pleasing. He took some negative examples from BvS that JL avoided to help make his point. The general consensus is that this is tooled to be an audience pleaser, so let's see how that decision ends up working in the long run.


They cut Man Of Steel and Dawn Of Justice to bits for the theatric release, and crowds were not pleased. And I don't think I'll be watching it until they release the entire movie.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They cut Man Of Steel and Dawn Of Justice to bits for the theatric release, and crowds were not pleased. And I don't think I'll be watching it until they release the entire movie.


Meh. Theatrical Man of Steel still felt overlong and I thought the theatrical version of BvS was fine (or rather that the "ultimate cut" did not do all that much for its shortcomings). Anyway, Justice League is claimed to be more of an entertainer and something general audiences will lap up. Now let's see if that really happens.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I saw many reviews... I think that I will expect for Aquaman movie for see Jason Momoa...
> 
> 1510733517450.jpg


More positive/green reviews have been added since then, and also more mostly positive yellows that look like they could be fresh reviews on Rotten Tomatoes.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Mark Hughes from Forbes argued that it was better to exclude the subplots and make the film leaner, and how that would turn out to be more crowd pleasing. He took some negative examples from BvS that JL avoided to help make his point. The general consensus is that this is tooled to be an audience pleaser, so let's see how that decision ends up working in the long run.


At the end of the day tho, the critics are not really all that impressed by the very safe movie they got. It's basically a better Avengers, but not that complex at all. I gave it an 8-8.5/10, because that's the standard I went in expecting.

In comparison, movies like TDK, Batman Begins, DoFP, X2, Cap 2, Unbreakable, and, most recently, Logan blow this movie out of the water. As much as I enjoyed the movie, the tone is rather vanilla, save a few scenes. Even tho I enjoyed Steppenwolf's characterization, he didn't fill the screen with energy like Donald Pierce, a minor villain, in Logan did. 

After thinking about this movie more, despite me enjoying it a lot, I'm pissed that people are gonna say that this is the direction the DCFU should continue to go for because it's safe as hell.

Seriously, you could've replaced Steppenwolf with Starro and gotten a similar movie. 

I need to see where Matt Reeves takes his Batman trilogy, and what WW2 brings, but it seems like I can't look to the DCFU to bring anything that challenges the genre anymore. That now goes to Fox.

When I say challenge the genre, that means not these generic CBMs we've got in every outing this year, not named Logan. This film does at least develop it's characters, but besides maybe Batfleck, these aren't portrayals that will stay in your mind forever IMO. 

Even the history lesson in this movie is not nearly as impactful as Bruce's POV of MoS, or the opening of Watchmen. We know that Steppenwolf is a New God, and is on a mission for Darseid, but like with Thanos in the MCU, there is no weight at all in this plot.

Yes, I enjoyed the movie, I think it's the 2nd best CBM this year, and I think it will be a crowd pleaser, but I also think this is a sign of the end of the DCFU taking risks. This is probably why WB is talking about that one-shot/spin-off label of DC movies, and why Reeves movies being the DCFU is in question.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I saw many reviews... I think that I will expect for Aquaman movie for see Jason Momoa...
> 
> 1510733517450.jpg


It's the safe nature of the movie, and the fact that it's clearly cut up that has critics going "yes it's fun, and light now, but this is the epic JL we've been waiting for?" The MCU has a brand that people expect now, but Logan, and Deadpool, have set the bar much higher for CBMs in recent years.

----------


## Confuzzled

> At the end of the day tho, the critics are not really all that impressed by the very safe movie they got. It's basically a better Avengers, but not that complex at all. I gave it an 8-8.5/10, because that's the standard I went in expecting.
> 
> In comparison, movies like TDK, Batman Begins, DoFP, X2, Cap 2, Unbreakable, and, most recently, Logan blow this movie out of the water.


Wonder Woman was also arguably a "safe" origin movie, and yet the critics generally ranked it as being better than all of these listed movies (going by Rotten Tomatoes calculations).

Team-up movies aren't really expected to be on those levels either, especially not team-up origin movies. WB just had to follow the "superheroes band together, share great chemistry and save the world" formula to please audiences, in which they seem to have succeeded. After the first three DCEU films, it's understandable why they wanted to just play it "safe".

----------


## Confuzzled

Variety's reviewer Owen Gleiberman summed it up best in his review intro:




> _In superhero movies, sheer lively deliver-the-goods competence can be a quality you’re grateful for — or one that seems awesomely innocuous. In “Justice League,” it’s a little of both. The film is the definition of an adequate high-spirited studio lark: no more, no less. If fans get excited about it, that may mostly be because they’re excited about getting excited. Yet the movie is no cheat. It’s a tasty franchise delivery system that kicks a certain series back into gear._


That seems like a win to me, especially considering where the DCEU was post-BvS.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Variety's reviewer Owen Gleiberman summed it up best in his review intro:
> 
> 
> 
> That seems like a win to me, especially considering where the DCEU was post-BvS.


I'm kinda over the "tasty franchise delivery system". The fact that some of the biggest praise is that it's fun, and it'll entertain the general audience, is ridiculous. So we want this movie to be Fast 7?

I'm a DC fan, so I liked the movie, but it's still too basic. I'm seeing it one more time in a few days to reassess my thoughts on the movie, or seeing if I'll still enjoy it the same as I did in that Houston Marq'e fan screening.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm kinda over the "tasty franchise delivery system". The fact that some of the biggest praise is that it's fun, and it'll entertain the general audience, is ridiculous. *So we want this movie to be Fast 7*?


Post MoS/BvS/SS? Justice League turning out to be Fast 7 sounds like a God given miracle.

Also, team-up setups/origins can afford to be a little shallow plot/narrative wise. They usually always are because the various characters can be such disparate moving parts that handling them takes away most of the focus. Even something like _Young Justice_ didn't open with all cylinders blazing right from the get go. Ditto for stuff like _Guardians of the Galaxy_ and the JL:TAS pilot arc. It's for that reason why I was always glad they didn't waste Darkseid as the big bad here. Look how that turned out with _Justice League: War_.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Post MoS/BvS/SS? Justice League turning out to be Fast 7 sounds like a God given miracle.


Not to me. If we're in for generic, non-risk storytelling in the future of the DCFU, then I'd rather they stop the DCFU and stick to that "everything is standalone" brand they're doing on the side (basically what they had before). I've got the MCU doing that shtick already.

This will only kill the genre faster. The western practically died off because it was the damn near the same movie every time. That is happening with these CBMs, for the most part.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Looks like Rotten Tomatoes forgot to close off scores from the app Flickster. As a result you can see Justice League ‘s score and it ain’t pretty. 48 percent with 44 reviews in. Another example of poor pre production decisions mixed with poor post production decisions.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Looks like Rotten Tomatoes forgot to close off scores from the app Flickster. As a result you can see Justice League ‘s score and it ain’t pretty. 48 percent with 44 reviews in. Another example of poor pre production decisions mixed with poor post production decisions.


Hmm, looks like Aquaman won't be splashing into town with any positive momentum from critics...

----------


## Confuzzled

> Not to me. If we're in for generic, non-risk storytelling in the future of the DCFU, then I'd rather they stop the DCFU and stick to that "everything is standalone" brand they're doing on the side (basically what they had before). I've got the MCU doing that shtick already.
> 
> This will only kill the genre faster. The western practically died off because it was the damn near the same movie every time. That is happening with these CBMs, for the most part.


How was any CBM released this year "damn near the same" as the other? I guess Guardians 2 and Ragnarok due to the similarly quippy tones and fantastical space settings, but "near the same" is a bit of a stretch even there.

----------


## Barbatos666

Oh well there's still Deathstroke on Arrow, Prof Pyg on Gotham and Punisher to look forward to plus the next episode of Telltale's Batman is out next week.

I'm still baffled by their decision to use Steppenwolf as the main villain and though I dislike Snyder I blame this on Johns. Steppenwolf has never been main villain material, Johns probably looked at his own New 52 JL and the early E2 line and thought it was a good idea for this guy to be a villain.
Should've used Kalibak,Desaad and the Furies if they wanted to save Darkseid himself for later they atleast have personality. Though preferably someone else together.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> How was any CBM released this year "damn near the same" as the other? I guess Guardians 2 and Ragnarok due to the similarly quippy tones and fantastical space settings, but "near the same" is a bit of a stretch even there.


Near the same in terms of being a generic, non-descript CBM. Logan was the only one this year that isn't that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Oh well there's still Deathstroke on Arrow, Prof Pyg on Gotham and Punisher to look forward to plus the next episode of Telltale's Batman is out next week.
> 
> I'm still baffled by their decision to use Steppenwolf as the main villain and though I dislike Snyder I blame this on Johns. Steppenwolf has never been main villain material, Johns probably looked at his own New 52 JL and the early E2 line and thought it was a good idea for this guy to be a villain.
> Should've used Kalibak,Desaad and the Furies if they wanted to save Darkseid himself for later they atleast have personality. Though preferably someone else together.


Lol, you talk about those other villains like those are better villains to use. Seriously...Kalibak?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Couldn't stay away for long lol. Anyway glad BatmanJones, TooFly and Elmo enjoyed it! 

As for the reviews it's whatever, the WoM is already insanely more positive than BvS, honestly I'm so numb on critics and reviews it doesn't faze me as opposed to last year when the BvS embargo lifted and I started falsely started hating on Snyder before even seeing the film! 

WB meddling is like whatever as well, the movie is meant to sell all audiences not just fans so if they feel the need to bring the run time to 2hrs is what's needed so be it, we'll probably get the true cut on home video. 

I'm a hell of a lot more excited to see it Friday now.  :Big Grin: . Just 2 .more days. I might be getting the new Pokémon game early today so that should bide time until Friday.

----------


## RudHao

> Lol, you talk about those other villains like those are better villains to use. Seriously...Kalibak?


At the very least Kalibak is more recognizable than Steppenwolf, i recall seeing him in several episodes of Superman TAS, Justice League, and JLU, anyone who grew up on the DCAU and is an adult now should recognize him... though admitedly I recall him being kind of a chump...

Steppenwolf on the other hand?, has he ever appeared outside of comics?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Near the same in terms *of being a generic, non-descript CBM.* Logan was the only one this year that isn't that.


Critics either disagreed (Wonder Woman) or didn't let it bother them much (the MCU bunch) and box office returns were great all around. In fact all fared better than Logan. So maybe there isn't that much of a danger as you say?

----------


## Confuzzled

> At the very least Kalibak is more recognizable than Steppenwolf, i recall seeing him in several episodes of Superman TAS, Justice League, and JLU, anyone who grew up on the DCAU and is an adult now should recognize him... should admitedly I recall him being kind of a chump...
> 
> Steppenwolf on the other hand?, has he ever appeared outside of comics.


I feel even Kalibak would have been a waste as the throwaway Big Bad of the JL origin film.

The New Gods need to be properly introduced with their own _Game of Thrones-ian_ epic series/movie. It will work much better than Inhumans because unlike them, the NG are mostly meant to be villainous or morally ambiguous.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> At the very least Kalibak is more recognizable than Steppenwolf, i recall seeing him in several episodes of Superman TAS, Justice League, and JLU, anyone who grew up on the DCAU and is an adult now should recognize him... though admitedly I recall him being kind of a chump...
> 
> Steppenwolf on the other hand?, has he ever appeared outside of comics?


The thing is that Steppenwolf has elements to his character that makes him easier to build into a multi-layered character. This movie just refused to use those elements, and didn't build on the new elements they added to him.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Lol, you talk about those other villains like those are better villains to use. Seriously...Kalibak?


He has personality, he's Darkseid's son which gives him a meatier narrative and he's visually distinct. Steppenwolf is another tough guy with a helmet leading an army.

I'd rather they not have used the Apokoliptians but they literally chose the blandest and most generic of them. Kalibak,Dessaad,Granny and the Furies together would have been far better. Even Vundabar was a superior choice. They went with what they thought was the most "menacing" but it backfired.

----------


## Barbatos666

> The thing is that Steppenwolf has elements to his character that makes him easier to build into a multi-layered character. This movie just refused to use those elements, and didn't build on the new elements they added to him.


Not really he's diet coke Sinestro/Ares/Zod//Mongul/Darkseid insert generic warlord.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Critics either disagreed (Wonder Woman) or didn't let it bother them much (the MCU bunch) and box office returns were great all around. In fact all fared better than Logan. So maybe there isn't that much of a danger as you say?


It's a danger that we're starting to get complacent. The fact that movies like Fast 7, Jurassic World, and Thor Ragnarok get more eyes than stuff like Logan, Unbreakable and Mad Max is a damn shame.

----------


## RudHao

> It's a danger that we're starting to get complacent. The fact that movies like Fast 7, Jurassic World, and Thor Ragnarok get more eyes than stuff like Logan, Unbreakable and Mad Max is a damn shame.


It's not a shame, naturally movies that are made for those with more "refined" tastes will appeal to less people....

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Not really he's diet coke Sinestro/Ares/Zod/Darkseid insert generic warlord.


He's the uncle to his king, he's a warlord that has conquered hundreds of planets, and he's got his own ambitions apart from Darkseid's, but follows his king not out of love, or admiration, but fear.

He coul the been portrayed as a tired, old warrior going through the motions and him being aware of that. Maybe he takes the heroes seriously, maybe he doesn't, but to him this is the equivalent to an office job. He just doesn't care anymore, but the JL reignite his thirst for battle.

He could've been portrayed as trying to overthrow Darkseid, and Earth being his first step towards that.

Hell, he lost to Earth...how does that effect the pride, and mind, of a general who's never lost. He could've been a General Thrawn type of character.

He's fought, and/or heard of kryptonians before...Why not have him use his vast experience in the movie, to add to characterization?

It's really freaking easy.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's not a shame, naturally movies that are made for those with more "refined" tastes will appeal to less people....


And how is that not sad? That being par for the course is a shame.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

TooFly did JL have stylized credits like how WW did? Or was it just standard fare?

----------


## Confuzzled

> TooFly did JL have stylized credits like how WW did? Or was it just standard fare?


Whedon should have saved the "marble Greek god statues" theme for JL as it would have been much more fitting. Though understandably there was no way he could've foreseen the future.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> TooFly did JL have stylized credits like how WW did? Or was it just standard fare?


Not that I saw, no.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Honestly, these reviews are savage as hell. I don't really see how WB will spin this, and Affleck is definitely gone now. No need to contemplate.

I know I'm critical of the safeness of the movie, but jeezus...

----------


## Confuzzled

> And how is that not sad? That being par for the course is a shame.


It's a complex matter that comes down to socio-economic factors that enable or disable the level of education and/or satisfaction levels in life of the larger public. People struggling with aspects of their life like job and family more often than not just need entertainment to be shallow fantasy escapism more than deep introspection.




> Honestly, these reviews are savage as hell. I don't really see how WB will spin this, and Affleck is definitely gone now. No need to contemplate.
> 
> I know I'm critical of the safeness of the movie, but jeezus...


Overall, they seem pretty tame to me. They're definitely way better than BvS which was what most people were hoping for. It's all about expectations I guess.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Black_Adam

Up to 50% RT based on Flixster think it will go up a bit but looks like low 60s is probably the ceiling, did hope it would do more that's hardly a home run but a step in the right direction I guess.

I honestly think this 1 year gap after JL to Aquaman may come as a blessing in disguise, the DCEU needs to separate itself from the constant negativity and bad rumours. JL's production issues were well publicised, the fact we have heard so little about Aquaman's production is actually a relief so far. Also Snyder, yeah as long as this guy is associated with DC there will be issues, WB would be wise to distance themselves from him after JL. Cut down on the rumours, take a year off come back fresh with a great Aquaman film that's the win the DCEU needs next year.

----------


## manofsteel1979

One review headline I saw states that " Justice League is the most infantile of recent Superhero blockbusters".

After seeing Thor Ragnarok ( which I enjoyed for what it was), I find that assessment hard to take seriously. "Devil's Anus" anyone? 

I'm not one to believe the "Disney/Marvel is buying off critics to crap on DC and blindly praise Marvel" conspiracy theories...But these reviews I'm seeing for Justice League given that most of the word of mouth I've seen from people here and other sources, many of whom despised BvS with a fiery passion have given positive nods, it makes me wonder if there isn't some validity to the theory.

I mean...Thor Ragnarok was entertaining... While I was watching it, but afterwards, the more I think about it, it's probably one of Marvel's dumest and most juvenile of their output so far. How the hell did it get 95+ percent on RT and all of these " best comic book movie evah!" Glowing reviews? Yet, Justice League is " infantile".

 I mean...Really...Again " devil's Anus"?! I'm surprised there weren't literal fart jokes in it. I guess that's being saved for Infinity War. Thanos is gonna let off a big smelly loud fart and that kills our heroes. Guaranteed 98 percent Fresh!

Also, I saw someone complaining in another review snippet about Superman being more Donner-ish...When in 2013 3/4ths of the negative reviews of MOS were opining that Cavill's Superman wasn't more like Chris Reeve! I mean... Seriously? 


I don't know if it's because critics have a mad on for Zack Snyder, or have a natural bias to where Marvel can do no wrong or some critics dislike comic book movies in general and are secretly hoping Marvel will keep getting dumber and dumber and more asinine so it kills this genre dead and it goes back to being niche so they don't have to review these anymore or Disney is indeed paying people or whatever​. Perhaps it's a mix of all of it. 

I haven't seen JL yet, so maybe the critics are right, but I also enjoyed BvS when nearly every critic shat on it, so maybe I'm out of touch and I don't know what a good movie is. We'll see in a couple days. I suspect I will probably still be of the opinion that I'm completely done with the critical community as a whole. I know I shouldn't care, but it's become a joke.

----------


## Thomas Crown

Anyone here actually believed that movie critics would give fair reviews to "Justice League" and Zack Snyder, just because they were "nice" to "Wonder Woman"? Like, seriously? And now it's going to happen exactly the same thing that happened with "Batman v Superman". Warner Bros will throw Zack under the bus and let him take the blame for the reviews, even though they were the ones who mutilated his movie in post-production.

You know, after everything Zack and his family went through and all the crap he got from haters, movie critics, bloggers, clickbait sites and even comic creators, I was hoping he could at least close his DCEU trilogy on a high note, with "Justice League" being successful with both general audience and critics. But, by the looks of things, even this will not be possible.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't know if it's because critics have a mad on for Zack Snyder, or have a natural bias to where Marvel can do no wrong


I think it's these two, especially the second. Though the guy from Mashable moronically dared to say the critics giving JL positive reviews are doing it to suck up to WB for early passes, benefits etc. I mean, dude uncool. He publicly took cheap shots at his own colleagues for what exactly? Embarrassing for Mashable.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Anyone here actually believed that movie critics would give fair reviews to "Justice League" and Zack Snyder, just because they were "nice" to "Wonder Woman"? Like, seriously? And now it's going to happen exactly the same thing that happened with "Batman v Superman". Warner Bros will throw Zack under the bus and and let him take the blame for the reviews, even though they were the ones who mutilated his movie in post-production.
> 
> You know, after everything Zack and his family went through and all the crap he got from haters, movie critics, bloggers, clickbait sites and even comic creators, I was hoping he could at least close his DCEU trilogy on a high note, with "Justice League" being successful with both general audience and critics. But, by the looks of things, even this will not be possible.


It could still end up being fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. Most of the scores on Metacritic are mixed leaning towards positive, which could mean a "fresh" review.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> I'm not one to believe the "Disney/Marvel is buying off critics to crap on DC and blindly praise Marvel" conspiracy theories...But these reviews I'm seeing for Justice League given that most of the word of mouth I've seen from people here and other sources, many of whom despised BvS with a fiery passion have given positive nods, *it makes me wonder if there isn't some validity to the theory*.


There isn't.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Anyone here actually believed that movie critics would give fair reviews to "Justice League" and Zack Snyder, just because they were "nice" to "Wonder Woman"? Like, seriously? And now it's going to happen exactly the same thing that happened with "Batman v Superman". Warner Bros will throw Zack under the bus and and let him take the blame for the reviews, even though they were the ones who mutilated his movie in post-production.
> 
> You know, after everything Zack and his family went through and all the crap he got from haters, movie critics, bloggers, clickbait sites and even comic creators, I was hoping he could at least close his DCEU trilogy on a high note, with "Justice League" being successful with both general audience and critics. But, by the looks of things, even this will not be possible.


I think there's a chance the general audience will embrace it. I've written off critics after Thor Ragnarok was this great masterpiece. 

I'm convinced if WW was the exact same movie, but if the credit was " directed by Zack Snyder", it would have gotten shat on. Don't get me wrong, I loved WW
But I suspect the main reason the usual suspects were kind to WW was to avoid charges of sexism, but to also establish some cred as being fair so they could provide cover to when it was time to crap on JL.

----------


## ObserveCreativeSouls115

Saw #JusticeLeague yesterday, here's my special 'THE JOKER' review (no spoilers; featuring JARED LETO!). If you want to ask some questions, I'm all ears!

----------


## Thomas Crown

> I'm convinced if WW was the exact same movie, but if the credit was " directed by Zack Snyder", it would have gotten shat on. Don't get me wrong, I loved WW.
> But I suspect the main reason the usual suspects were kind to WW was to avoid charges of sexism, but to also establish some cred as being fair so they could provide cover to when it was time to crap on JL.


I brought up these exact same points on twitter and people there ripped me a new one. Even some DCEU fans.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> There isn't.


And you're probably right...But something is going on. It's becoming obvious bias when Marvel movies seem to get universal praise no matter what and if DC does something similar...I.e. weak villain or poor CGI or too quippy, they get called on it whilst stuff like Ragnarok gets glowing reviews that feel like they were written by Marvel's PR department. 

I'll see JL on Friday. Perhaps I'll dislike it and ultimately agree with critics here, but I find it hard to fathom JL being more "infantile" than Ragnarok when it had a literal ass joke as part of the freaking plot.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> And you're probably right...But something is going on. It's becoming obvious bias when Marvel movies seem to get universal praise no matter what and if DC does something similar...I.e. weak villain or poor CGI or too quippy, they get called on it whilst stuff like Ragnarok gets glowing reviews that feel like they were written by Marvel's PR department. 
> 
> I'll see JL on Friday. Perhaps I'll dislike it and ultimately agree with critics here, but I find it hard to fathom JL being more "infantile" than Ragnarok when it had a literal ass joke as part of the freaking plot.


There's nothing going on. 

Film criticism isn't a hard science.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Overall, they seem pretty tame to me. They're definitely way better than BvS which was what most people were hoping for. It's all about expectations I guess.


Yeah they're no where near as rough as the BvS ones, but also unlike BvS the word of mouth is _really_ positive and that is what matters at the end of the day!

----------


## TheSeaDragon

lol, the same people that praise every popcorn marvel film like is a masterpiece says JL  is infantile , after crushin BvS for being too dark

Those critics are full of crap, but i dont blame them, i blame  the sheep hat cant maket their own mind and le these people judge a movie for them

People should remember Ratatouille, Critcs dont risk anything, and have power over people that offer their hard work

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Oh, guess its that time again. 

The critics are mean and biased and unfair and stupid and smelly because they aren't positively reviewing a movie I'm excited for!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

So a question what is everyone's DCEU watch count at?

Mine:

MoS: 4 or 5 (inc once in theatres)

BvS: 8 (inc 3 times is theatres)

SS: Once in theatres.

WW: 3 (once in theatres). 

Plan to see JL at any opportunity given the run time so hope to see it 5 or 6 times before it closes.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

The NYT review said Batfleck possibly needs more jokes to be sustainable. 
Lots of comparisons to the MCU, and one review claiming Justice League is copying The Avengers and most recently Thors Revengers.

With Snyders movies, or even the DCEU in general, these critics act like theyre reviewing something life dependent. They are always very harsh and nitpick everything. Not saying theyre right or wrong, but they really shoot for the sky on these reviews.

----------


## Doctor Know

> The NYT review said Batfleck possibly needs more jokes to be sustainable. 
> Lots of comparisons to the MCU, and one review claiming Justice League is copying The Avengers and most recently Thor’s “Revengers.”
> 
> With Snyder’s movies, or even the DCEU in general, these critics act like they’re reviewing something life dependent. They are always very harsh and nitpick everything. Not saying they’re right or wrong, but they really shoot for the sky on these reviews.


It's the weirdest thing. 

Till JL, the DCEU was ripped for not being like Marvel.

Now JL has quips, jokes, is lighter and has all the same frailities the Marvel movies have (cannon fodder armies, CGI, weak villains) and suddenly the DC movies are wrong for copying Marvel. 


Can't win for losing.

----------


## Carabas

> So a question what is everyone's DCEU watch count at?
> 
> Mine:
> 
> MoS: 4 or 5 (inc once in theatres)
> 
> BvS: 8 (inc 3 times is theatres)
> 
> SS: Once in theatres.
> ...


MoS: 1 (DVD)

BvS: 1 (blue-ray)

SS: 1 (blue-ray)

WW: 2 (theatre + blue-ray)

At this points no plans to see Justice League before it comes out on blue-ray.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Seriously guys this bias stuff holds no weight.

For starters many Marvel movies are actually criticised for their use of CGI, their weak villains, and their use of humour. Go and actually see for yourselves that they are. Ragnarok was, GotG Vol. 2 was, Doctor Strange was, Spider-Man was, and so on. No Marvel movie has a 100% rating on RT because not every critic has liked them. Critics are not a hivemind. And Wonder Woman just came out like what, 5 months ago? That movie was lauded by critics and I'd argue it has some darker and more serious moments that MCU movies. Why was it not panned? Look at Logan. Downright depressing movie. Still lauded by critics. Both movies have Oscar buzz. You can't just keep throwing around this idea of bias to avoid the real problems Snyder's movies have. Like them if you want to, but don't go around doubting other people's integrity because you disagree with them. It comes across like you've made up your mind to love this movie no matter what, instead of keeping an open mind. And that's bordering on fanaticism. It's also downright hypocritical to disagree with critics on a movie like Ragnarok, but imply that they are the ones who are wrong because you don't agree. 

Maybe, just maybe, Zack Snyder isn't that good of an objective director as you think he is. Like him if you want (I do kinda like 300 and Watchmen), but you can't keep going around saying people have a bias and are wrong because you disagree.

Now honestly in the later months of this movie's promotional run, I became a lot more optimistic than I was before. I thought it looked good. I'm sure they'll be a bunch of moments I'll love. But that's not enough for a movie to be objectively good. And production and post production hiccups aside, this movie was built on a very poor foundation in my opinion. BvS was not the right next step to build this franchise, both as a story and as a movie. But we all know that Zack Snyder loves Frank Miller, and it shows. He loves deconstruction way too much for someone who wants to construct a universe. I doubt any version of Justice League in the DCEU would have been excellent at this stage it was put out. It's happening way too soon, and as a story it feels rushed. Had it been a standalone movie, it could have been great. From what I hear, the cast is actually pretty good in this film. And the fact like it seems as though this movie was trying to fix everything from BvS. Avengers wasn't fixing anything. It wss building on. And look, say what you want about Marvel, but at least they've stuck to their guns, to the point were some people say their movies are formulaic (kinda dumb if you ask me). Unlike WB/DC who have been so reactionary. 

I'm still hyped for Aquaman and WW2, Deathstroke and Shazam, but I don't think I'll care too much about this universe. Yes I will form my opinion on this movie, but this isn't encouraging at all.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Seriously guys this bias stuff holds no weight.


Overall, no, but for some reviewers, of course it does. That shouldn't even be arguable. 45 years of reading reviews is enough evidence for me.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> It's the weirdest thing. 
> 
> Till JL, the DCEU was ripped for not being like Marvel.
> 
> Now JL has quips, jokes, is lighter and has all the same frailities the Marvel movies have (cannon fodder armies, CGI, weak villains) and suddenly the DC movies are wrong for copying Marvel. 
> 
> 
> Can't win for losing.


So the DCEU movies should have all of these things because Marvel has them? You should be straight up disappointed by these things (I even remember people taking shots at Marvel and Thanos, saying Steppenwolf would be more interesting). Yet that doesn't look to be the case and you're still finding a negative as an opportunity to complain about Marvel. Complain about your own damn movie. Why is the CGI apparently bad? Why is Steppenwolf lacklustre like the last two DCEU villains? Why are the Parademons less than interesting?  Why does this movie have jokes and quips if people like Ben Affleck said DCEU won't be as funny as Marvel movies? ,If Marvel has laid out a blueprint with Avengers and AoU, then DC should do far better. After all, that is what many of you said.

I get it, you're pissed. But stop avoiding the problem.

----------


## Johnny

> So a question what is everyone's DCEU watch count at?
> 
> Mine:
> 
> MoS: 4 or 5 (inc once in theatres)
> 
> BvS: 8 (inc 3 times is theatres)
> 
> SS: Once in theatres.
> ...


I've seen every DCEU film only once. I saw them in theaters and I haven't gone back to them since. Not because I dislike them, but because generally very few comic book films made me revisit them over and over again. I don't even recall which was the last cbm that I've seen multiple times, maybe goes all the way back to the Raimi trilogy. I've certainly seen Spider-Man 2 more than 5 times, but after that it gets blurry.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> It's the weirdest thing. 
> 
> Till JL, the DCEU was ripped for not being like Marvel.
> 
> Now JL has quips, jokes, is lighter and has all the same frailities the Marvel movies have (cannon fodder armies, CGI, weak villains) and suddenly the DC movies are wrong for copying Marvel. 
> 
> 
> Can't win for losing.


Which is predictable sadly.


The DC movies are held to a different standard than Marvel. I think at this point if Marvel put out a 2 hour Avengers movie where every one just farts for the entire running time it would get a 60 minimum on RT and you'd get a few claiming it was the best thing ever.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> So the DCEU movies should have all of these things because Marvel has them? You should be straight up disappointed by these things (I even remember people taking shots at Marvel and Thanos, saying Steppenwolf would be more interesting). Yet that doesn't look to be the case and you're still finding a negative as an opportunity to complain about Marvel. Complain about your own damn movie. Why is the CGI apparently bad? Why is Steppenwolf lacklustre like the last two DCEU villains? Why are the Parademons less than interesting?  Why does this movie have jokes and quips if people like Ben Affleck said DCEU won't be as funny as Marvel movies? ,If Marvel has laid out a blueprint with Avengers and AoU, then DC should do far better. After all, that is what many of you said.
> 
> I get it, you're pissed. But stop avoiding the problem.


The problem is many of the same problems that JL is being pilloried for by some is just as bad in some of Marvel's films and they largely get a pass. There's been complaints that DC should be more like Marvel. Now the complaints are they are too much like Marvel now. I mean, wtf?

----------


## Vanguard-01

Sorry, any critic who can praise Thor "Devil's Anus" Ragnarok and call Justice League "infantile" loses all credibility with me forever.

----------


## Jokerz79

The DCEU has always had the same "issues" as the MCU just without all the jokes before.

Disposable Army: Zod's Kryptonian Soldiers & Enchantress' Putty Army.

CGI: Most of Snyder's films are CGI Metropolis was CGI.

Weak Villains: Enchantress, Luthor (IMO), Doomsday, Ares, Dr. Poison, and it sounds like Steppenwolf now too.

----------


## Myskin

> The problem is many of the same problems that JL is being pilloried for by some is just as bad in some of Marvel's films and they largely get a pass. There's been complaints that DC should be more like Marvel. Now the complaints are they are too much like Marvel now. I mean, wtf?


These two things are not mutually exclusive. I am not a fan of Marvel movies and I HATE some of them, but there is no doubt that Marvel/Disney created a very compact, functional movie-making machine which is extremely recognizable and doesn't shy away from covering new ground. They explored every genre - comedy, horror, spy movie, teen drama - in a very prolific way (even if not a particularly successful one from a merely artistic point of view). Also: they are doing their own thing and they are not copying anyone. When Iron Man was out, it didn't want to be Batman Begins 2.0.

The same can be said for Deadpool (which is NOT Disney by the way), Logan and to a lesser degree Wonder Woman. I am not particularly interested in Rotten Tomatoes - I consider it a very flawed score system - and I think that WW isn't even remotely interesting and clever as critics want it to be, but when it came out it was something relatively new - a female superhero, that is a slot which Marvel hadn't occupied yet, with a very charismatic actress. Critics liked this and they rewarded it.

The 2 main problems with the DCEU so far (including JL I guess, even if I haven't seen the movie and I am not entirely sure that I will) are that: A- They haven't built anything solid and B- They keep on changing their approach because they desperately want to be like Marvel and they never succeed. MOS had at least a vaguely consistent tone, as a movie it had a vague idea of what it wanted to be, but the story was very poor and full of forced moments because they were trying to distinguish themselves from Marvel without precisely knowing how to do it (hence some forcibly dark moments in the story). Now we have a JL movie and they are doing their best to become as Marvel-ish as possible (heck, they even used the VERY SAME director of Avengers!) but as long as they don't create anything solid they will never succeed, because they don't know what they want to be anymore - and that's why a lot of people consider them Marvel wannabees, and rightfully so.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> The DCEU has always had the same "issues" as the MCU just without all the jokes before.
> 
> Disposable Army: Zod's Kryptonian Soldiers & Enchantress' Putty Army.
> 
> CGI: Most of Snyder's films are CGI Metropolis was CGI.
> 
> Weak Villains: Enchantress, Luthor (IMO), Doomsday, Ares, Dr. Poison, and it sounds like Steppenwolf now too.


The difference is, again, most of the time it seems reviewers will overlook those weaknesses in Marvel movies and seize on those same weaknesses in DC movies and pick the movie to death.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Which is predictable sadly.
> 
> 
> The DC movies are held to a different standard than Marvel. I think at this point if Marvel put out a 2 hour Avengers movie where every one just farts for the entire running time it would get a 60 minimum on RT and you'd get a few claiming it was the best thing ever.



lol, they would call the farts revolutionary and fresh

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Sorry, any critic who can praise Thor "Devil's Anus" Ragnarok and call Justice League "infantile" loses all credibility with me forever.


Thank you...

Ragnarok had very immature and crude humor. 

To those who are still saying there is no bias, why don’t you pick out about 10 reviews and come back and tell me where the MCU, Stark/RDJ, and/or the Avengers aren’t brought up. 

Anyway, here we are. I hate this. I’m still seeing Jl at least twice in theaters, and I think I’ll walk away pleased.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The difference is, again, most of the time it seems reviewers will overlook those weaknesses in Marvel movies and seize on those same weaknesses in DC movies and pick the movie to death.


No the Marvel films are billed as fun entertainment and they deliver that they're not deep and occasionally you get a Winter Soldier. The DCEU films that did badly so far because I won't judge Justice League till it's actually is out had issues outside of the ones listed.

WW did great because it was a well made coherent fun film like the MCU films.

Man of Steel got a 55% on RT and it mostly came down to many people being divided on Snyder's take of the character and critics weren't alone on that so 55% sounds right. As for BvS and Suicide Squad they were messes due to the Studios messing with them. BvS's theatrical cut was a mess and that's thanks to the Studio and with Suicide Squad they allowed a trailer house to make edits that's ridiculous. Sorry BBS the Theatrical Cut and Suicide Squad earned their low ratings and that's thanks to WB.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Sorry, any critic who can praise Thor "Devil's Anus" Ragnarok and call Justice League "infantile" loses all credibility with me forever.


Ahh, I wondered if you were on SuperherHype.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> No the Marvel films are billed as fun entertainment and they deliver that they're not deep and occasionally you get a Winter Soldier. The DCEU films that did badly so far because I won't judge Justice League till it's actually is out had issues outside of the ones listed.
> 
> WW did great because it was a well made coherent fun film like the MCU films.
> 
> Man of Steel got a 55% on RT and it mostly came down to many people being divided on Snyder's take of the character and critics weren't alone on that so 55% sounds right. As for BvS and Suicide Squad they were messes due to the Studios messing with them. BvS's theatrical cut was a mess and that's thanks to the Studio and with Suicide Squad they allowed a trailer house to make edits that's ridiculous. Sorry BBS the Theatrical Cut and Suicide Squad earned their low ratings and that's thanks to WB.


This is true, but Thor was just as safe, and tonally innocuous as JL is seen to be...yet it's great, despite the comedy telling you to take nothing seriously.

Still, maybe this 2hr might be a repeat of WB screwing up again. As thats where the narrative problems come from.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Ahh, I wondered if you were on SuperherHype.


Ummm.....I'm not?

----------


## RealWonderman

> So a question what is everyone's DCEU watch count at?
> 
> Mine:
> 
> MoS: 4 or 5 (inc once in theatres)
> 
> BvS: 8 (inc 3 times is theatres)
> 
> SS: Once in theatres.
> ...


MoS: 1 in theaters, 15 since

BvS: 12 times in theaters, over 100 since

SS: one on blu ray. Never again.

WW: I saw it 40 times in theaters (with my Ultimate Ticket) and almost every day since (so...in the 100's...it's my 'go to' when I'm wandering around at home)

JL: probably 15 times in theaters...twice tomorrow.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> WW did great because it was a well made coherent fun film like the MCU films.


Yes and no. Yes, it was closer to the MCU formula than the early DCEU films, but it was more serious than your typical Marvel film, IMO.

----------


## robreedwrites

More than some other reviews I've read, The EW review seems to get to the point of why the film doesn't appear to work (I haven't seen it yet):

http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/15/just...alflow_twitter




> It’s obvious to anyone watching Justice League next to the other DC films that the studio brass handed down a mandate to lighten the mood and make things funnier and more Marvel-y. And, to an extent, Justice League accomplishes that. But it also feels like so much attention was paid to the smaller, fizzier character moments that the bigger picture of the film’s overarching plot was a second or third priority. Some day, hopefully soon, DC will get the recipe right again and duplicate Wonder Woman’s storytelling magic. But today isn’t that day, and Justice League unfortunately isn’t that film. C+


Frankly, it seems like JL has the worst parts of Thor: The Dark World (the villain), The Incredible Hulk (the CGI), and Suicide Squad (inconsistent tone, scenes that feel out of place). Fortunately it seems to be buoyed by the cast who are seemingly being universally praised as having good chemistry. 

A final RT score in the 50s or 60s wouldn't surprise me. Average rating will probably end up around a 6.5 out of 10.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> lol, they would call the farts revolutionary and fresh


It's hyperbole for sure, but not by much.

Again..." Devil's Anus"? Really, Marvel?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'm not as concerned with the critics because it seems like they've nailed the characters.

If the average moviegoer comes out of this with "Eh, it was okay, Aquaman/Flash movie will be cool though" that's a win for me.

----------


## tako

Haven't seen it yet, but tbh, from the reviews, it sounds like Warner Brothers butchered the film with Whedon's reshoots being stitched in. Would have preferred to see the OG Snyder vision.

----------


## Pinsir

> No the Marvel films are billed as fun entertainment and they deliver that they're not deep and occasionally you get a Winter Soldier. The DCEU films that did badly so far because I won't judge Justice League till it's actually is out had issues outside of the ones listed.
> 
> WW did great because it was a well made coherent fun film like the MCU films.
> 
> Man of Steel got a 55% on RT and it mostly came down to many people being divided on Snyder's take of the character and critics weren't alone on that so 55% sounds right. As for BvS and Suicide Squad they were messes due to the Studios messing with them. BvS's theatrical cut was a mess and that's thanks to the Studio and with Suicide Squad they allowed a trailer house to make edits that's ridiculous. Sorry BBS the Theatrical Cut and Suicide Squad earned their low ratings and that's thanks to WB.


Suicide Squad would have been a bad film regardless of how its edited. I know that it is fun to play the 'blame the WB game' but by all means, demonstrate how good editing could have brought that film together.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

You guys are really just mad about people's opinion.

That's what it boils down to. Nothing about bias. If critics liked Ragnarok, let them like it. Talking about they lose credibility. What makes you so above them? Another opinion that's different?

Wonder Woman so far has been the best movie from this because it is the most competent, plain and simple. Like what you like, dislike what you like, but stop this nonsense. It's not gonna solve anything. I despise both versions of BvS but you won't catch me ever saying someone loses credibility because they like it.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I'm convinced if WW was the exact same movie, but if the credit was " directed by Zack Snyder", it would have gotten shat on. Don't get me wrong, I loved WW
> But I suspect the main reason the usual suspects were kind to WW was to avoid charges of sexism, but to also establish some cred as being fair so they could provide cover to when it was time to crap on JL.


Sorry, but I dont think thats at all true. Wonder Woman did well with the critics because it was a well made movie with a coherent script and a director with a clear artistic vision for the film. There was no secret political agenda. Movies get good reviews if theyre good and not otherwise. Thats all there is to it.

----------


## Frontier

I guess one could say that Marvel movies, for all their faults, are generally well-constructed movies while DC, with all of WB's editing and cuts, aren't so that their movies' issues, even if they're similar to the faults that the Marvel movies have, are more glaring.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I guess one could say that Marvel movies, for all their faults, are generally well-constructed movies while DC, with all of WB's editing and cuts, aren't so that their movies' issues, even if they're similar to the faults that the Marvel movies have, are more glaring.


Most definitely this. Also, to use Thor as an example, the marvel movies that are well reviewed usually know their strengths and play to them. Like yeah Hela is a totally disposable villain but the movie doesn't spend a lot of time with her because they know Thor,Hulk,Valkyrie,Loki and pals mucking it up on planet Goldblum is way more fun.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'm hoping going forward the individual movies take risks (more likely with the lesser known iconic characters) and that the collective franchise has enough pull. Seems to work for the Avengers. Staying away from reviews for now. 




> You guys are really just mad about people's opinion.
> 
> That's what it boils down to. Nothing about bias. If critics liked Ragnarok, let them like it. Talking about they lose credibility. What makes you so above them? Another opinion that's different?
> 
> Wonder Woman so far has been the best movie from this because it is the most competent, plain and simple. Like what you like, dislike what you like, but stop this nonsense. It's not gonna solve anything. I despise both versions of BvS but you won't catch me ever saying someone loses credibility because they like it.


There are pre-conceived notions and different inconsistent standards to which DC movies and characters are held. This is plain in the reviews of certain critiques, obviously not all.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Sorry, but I don’t think that’s at all true. Wonder Woman did well with the critics because it was a well made movie with a coherent script and a director with a clear artistic vision for the film. There was no secret political agenda. Movies get good reviews if they’re good and not otherwise. That’s all there is to it.





> I guess one could say that Marvel movies, for all their faults, are generally well-constructed movies while DC, with all of WB's editing and cuts, aren't so that their movies' issues, even if they're similar to the faults that the Marvel movies have, are more glaring.


Nah you two are making too much sense. Critics are wrong and biased the moment you disagree with them.

Am I disappointed in this? All the way. But it's like people have already made up to like this movie no matter what. Yes critics shouldn't be the be all end all on how you judge a movie, but this is getting ridiculous. Every DCEU movie aside from WW and SS has people the same thing. Isn't madness doing the same thing and expecting different results?

----------


## TheSeaDragon

lol, so we are not allowed to not being agree with the critics

Stop being obsessed wit these guys , we are comic fans, lest judge a movie by ourselves And stop treat RT as something sacred

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> There are pre-conceived notions and different inconsistent standards to which DC movies and characters are held. This is plain in the reviews of certain critiques, obviously not all.


This is not the same thing as having a bias towards Marvel. This is the problem WB brought upon themselves by hiring a guy who cares about deconstruction more than construction. The DC characters are far more iconic than the MCU characters and yes, there are expectations. But another thing you need to realise that movies like MoS and BvS have objectively bad problems. You can like the ideas that both movies have, but that's doesn't mean you should ignore those problems. That's why these movies get negative reception and those expectations are pointed out. Personally I didn't think MoS needed such dour moments (and I was SO HYPED for that movie), and BvS needed a bit more of a contrast between Batman and Superman. But that's just my opinion. 

And it's not like DC are the only ones that go through the same thing. Look at the Spiderman movies after the Raimi ones.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> lol, so we are not allowed to not being agree with the critics
> 
> Stop being obsessed wit these guys , we are comic fans, lest judge a movie by ourselves And stop treat RT as something sacred


Of course you're allowed. It's this idea of calling them not credible and saying they're biased JUST because you disagree

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> This is not the same thing as having a bias towards Marvel. This is the problem WB brought upon themselves by hiring a guy who cares about deconstruction more than construction. The DC characters are far more iconic than the MCU characters and yes, there are expectations. But another thing you need to realise that movies like MoS and BvS have objectively bad problems. You can like the ideas that both movies have, but that's doesn't mean you should ignore those problems. That's why these movies get negative reception and those expectations are pointed out. Personally I didn't think MoS needed such dour moments (and I was SO HYPED for that movie), and BvS needed a bit more of a contrast between Batman and Superman. But that's just my opinion. 
> 
> And it's not like DC are the only ones that go through the same thing. Look at the Spiderman movies after the Raimi ones.



lol, Spidey s on the MCU now, he will be Fresh now. 

I  will not take these so called critics seriously anymore. after seeing Ragnarok score. A movie called like the norse apocalypse filled with cringey jokes.

----------


## robreedwrites

> lol, so we are not allowed to not being agree with the critics
> 
> Stop being obsessed wit these guys , we are comic fans, lest judge a movie by ourselves And stop treat RT as something sacred


No one is saying you can't disagree with the critical consensus. But people are tired of the growing "critics are biased against DC"/"Disney is paying critics"/"Critics are holding DC to higher standards" rap that seems to find its way into (and often dominates) any conversation about a DCEU film.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Of course you're allowed. It's this idea of calling them not credible and saying they're biased JUST because you disagree




Nobody is sayin they are paid or someting . We saidt hey are biased, not the same and perfectly possible

----------


## Pinsir

> Nah you two are making too much sense. *Critics are wrong and biased the moment you disagree with them.*


You do realize this is how life works right? If you have an opinion different than mine then yeah, I think you're wrong.




> Am I disappointed in this? All the way. But it's like people have already made up to like this movie no matter what. Yes critics shouldn't be the be all end all on how you judge a movie, but this is getting ridiculous. Every DCEU movie aside from WW and SS has people the same thing. *Isn't madness doing the same thing and expecting different results?*


Except no one here expected JL to receive a 92% on RT, we all were expected this film to be the most poorly reviewed CBM of the year.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> No one is saying you can't disagree with the critical consensus. But people are tired of the growing "critics are biased against DC"/"Disney is paying critics"/"Critics are holding DC to higher standards" rap that seems to find its way into (and often dominates) any conversation about a DCEU film.


Oh really, i find  the vitriolic hatte fort he DCE  and the everyhing marvel does is gold mindset more tiresome

----------


## Lightning Rider

> This is not the same thing as having a bias towards Marvel. This is the problem WB brought upon themselves by hiring a guy who cares about deconstruction more than construction. The DC characters are far more iconic than the MCU characters and yes, there are expectations. But another thing you need to realise that movies like MoS and BvS have objectively bad problems. You can like the ideas that both movies have, but that's doesn't mean you should ignore those problems. That's why these movies get negative reception and those expectations are pointed out. Personally I didn't think MoS needed such dour moments (and I was SO HYPED for that movie), and BvS needed a bit more of a contrast between Batman and Superman. But that's just my opinion. 
> 
> And it's not like DC are the only ones that go through the same thing. Look at the Spiderman movies after the Raimi ones.


But it becomes a proxy for a bias towards marvel because of the characters involved and the style of movie-making that has become treated by some critics as the appropriate tone for a comic book film. 

Certain Marvel movies have objectively bad problems too that some critics overlook. I'm not saying there is an intentional conspiracy but some critics, through examining the actual text of their reviews, have a dislike of certain character choices stemming from popular pre-conceived notions of what the characters have to be, and accept certain flaws in one movie but don't in another. Largely because of the comedic effect saving the movie from any dramatic missteps. Lower the stakes and laughs salvage the entertainment value.

----------


## Pinsir

> No one is saying you can't disagree with the critical consensus. But people are tired of the growing "critics are biased against DC"/"Disney is paying critics"/"Critics are holding DC to higher standards" rap that seems to find its way into (and often dominates) any conversation about a DCEU film.


You do realize by inserting the "Disney is paying critics" part into your diatribe you just spiked any point you were trying to make, right?

----------


## TheSeaDragon

TThe worst part of all this is that people thay was going with an open mind , now maybe will go with a bad expectation just because some guy on internet tha isn ot even a DC  fan say its bad, for the same reasons he praised every marvel movie

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> You do realize by inserting "Disney is paying critics" part into your diatribe you just spiked any point you were trying to make, right?


yup,nobody here talked aboutt pay, just abou bias, wich is a totally human and possible thing. Seriously, some MCU  fans are too  insecure , considering how succesful those movies are

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone know why there is no JL RT score? Punisher already has one.

----------


## robreedwrites

> lol, Spidey s on the MCU now, he will be Fresh now. 
> 
> I  will not take these so called critics seriously anymore. after seeing Ragnarok score. A movie called like the norse apocalypse filled with cringey jokes.


In the case of Spider-Man: Homecoming (as of this writing) it has a 92% RT score which just means that 92% of critics gave it a rating of 6/10 or higher. It's average rating as listed on RT was a 7.6/10. So most people thought it was good, not great. 

Wonder Woman has the exact same RT score of 92% and the same average rating of 7.6/10, though it has 54 more reviews than Spider-Man: Homecoming does at this point in time. 

Thor: Ragnarok has a higher RT score of 93%, however it's average rating is 7.5/10. So a larger percentage of people overall enjoyed it (this may be because it has less reviews than both films at 292), but not to the same degree (once again, talking averages) than Spider-Man: Homecoming and Wonder Woman.

----------


## robreedwrites

> Anyone know why there is no JL RT score? Punisher already has one.


Rotten Tomatoes is holding back the score until Thursday morning in order to promote their webshow.

----------


## Doctor Know

I think JL will def be a crowd pleaser. If it makes a billion+, reviews won't matter. There's been a disconnect from audiences and critics for years now anyway.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

Cant wait for he X  men to came back . hey coud have a totally average movie like, lest say, Apocalypse, but the RTY  will sky rocket. Magic of Disney., lol

But maybe WB  think too much about the critics makin this movie, the mindset should have been, screw them  , since the start

----------


## yohyoi

> Rotten Tomatoes is holding back the score until Thursday morning in order to promote their webshow.


Damn. Looks like I won't be watching their web show. Time to go back to the bunker until the internet goes full conspiracy mode.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> I think JL will def be a crowd pleaser. If it makes a billion+, reviews won't matter. There's been a disconnect from audiences and critics for years now anyway.




Not true at all, too much people let the reviews influence them. Some say if the reviews are not good, they dont go to the teather. But i agree that the audience will be kinder with the movie

----------


## Troian

> TThe worst part of all this is that people thay was going with an open mind , now maybe will go with a bad expectation just because some guy on internet tha isn ot even a DC  fan say its bad, for the same reasons he praised every marvel movie


Oh please. Ppl don't want to waste 25 bucks on a ticket plus food. They ignored the critics for BvS and SS and considering the steep drops, many were disapppointed. 

I call bull on the paying off critics. Marvel makes films that are usually like Wonder woman. They're fun, easy to follow and fairly basic and generic so there isn't much to hate.

BvS generally according to both critics and audiences was a boring soulless film with almost no action. SS was also generally seen as a flaming hot pile of garbage.

----------


## Angelo2113

> They cut Man Of Steel and Dawn Of Justice to bits for the theatric release, and crowds were not pleased. And I don't think I'll be watching it until they release the entire movie.





> Meh. Theatrical Man of Steel still felt overlong and I thought the theatrical version of BvS was fine (or rather that the "ultimate cut" did not do all that much for its shortcomings). Anyway, Justice League is claimed to be more of an entertainer and something general audiences will lap up. Now let's see if that really happens.


I thought Man of Steel theatrical version was the only version?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> BvS generally according to both critics and audiences was a boring soulless film with almost no action. SS was also generally as a flaming hot pile of garbage.


Both films were divisive, but not universally panned by audiences.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

part of me thinks that  The Dark Knight was lucky to come before the MCU  stablished this supossed gold standard of what a CMB  should be.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Both films were divisive, but not universally panned by audiences.


but everyine hates the Snyder films with passion. Is not an opinion, is a fact . Too bad of you to have an individual opinion of them.

Yeah, im being sarcastic  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

Look, I think it's complicated trying to separate someone's tastes from objective critiques of movies, and that's particularly true of comic book movies. 

Like, there are probably valid criticisms to be had of DC movies, but I think also to some degree the fact that the tone and style of the earlier DCEU movies weren't what people were expecting had a negative impact on their reception even if what they were going for shouldn't inherently be bad just for being different. 

But, as has been pointed out, "different" comic book movies can be well-received by critics, as cited with _Logan_ or even the Nolan Trilogy. So maybe it does all fall into a failure on a production level for the DC films. 

Of course I also think there might be some truth to the idea that Marvel movies, with their irreverent and light tone, makes critics go easier on them then they would other comic books movies. But again, they are also generally solidly-crafted films as well even if they generally don't try and be more then that. 

I think it's to _Wonder Woman's_ credit that it was probably the most balanced DCU movie (or comic book movie) and didn't have the production or tone issues the other films have had. Which is probably why it is still the best received DCEU film. 



> Except no one here expected JL to receive a 92% on RT, we all were expected this film to be the most poorly reviewed CBM of the year.


Well, I wouldn't say expecting so much dreading as the worst possible outcome of things.

----------


## Pinsir

> Oh please. Ppl don't want to waste 25 bucks on a ticket plus food. They igneoed the critics for BvS and SS and considering the steep drops, many were disapppointed. 
> 
> *I call bull on the paying off critics.* Marvel makes films that are usually like Wonder woman. They're
> Fun, easy to follow and fairly basic and generic so there isn't much to hate.


Wow, another 'truth teller' coming in repeating the 'paying off critics' line as if it were a legitimate thing and you wonder why people aren't receptive to your gospel?

----------


## Troian

> Both films were divisive, but not universally panned by audiences.


Okay got me there but lets not ignore the fact that many people did find BvS boring/all over the place and word of mouth was toxic for that film. 

SS while yes people did seem to enjoy it more than BvS, there were common criticisms that I heard and saw from both critics and some general audiences. And the common opinion appears to be that it wasn't as good as the trailers made it seem.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I don't know whether to trust this site, but apparently the score was accidentally leaked and it stands at 50%.

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/jus...y-been-leaked/

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

Haven't read any full reviews (just the snippets that've been posted here), and, if the movie is substantially over-edited, which appears to be a common consensus, then I hope we get multiple cuts on the home release: I'd really like to see a Snyder cut, just to see how different it was than the Whedon-altered version.

I'm still excited to see the movie, and I think the movie will do a very good opening weekend: whether or not it has legs will depend on the audience reaction to it, and not its critical reception.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Haven't read any full reviews (just the snippets that've been posted here), and, if the movie is substantially over-edited, which appears to be a common consensus, then I hope we get multiple cuts on the home release: I'd really like to see a Snyder cut, just to see how different it was than the Whedon-altered version.
> 
> I'm still excited to see the movie, and I think the movie will do a very good opening weekend: whether or not it has legs will depend on the audience reaction to it, and not its critical reception.


Yeah word of mouth will carry it.

----------


## Barbatos666

Moving forward I hope there is 
No Zack Snyder
No Ben Affleck
Batman films by Reeves exist in their own continuity and same goes for Bat family films
Really all films just take place in their own worlds
No JL for a while
Flashpoint the hell out of this mess

----------


## Buried Alien

> Moving forward I hope there is 
> No Zack Snyder
> No Ben Affleck
> Batman films by Reeves exist in their own continuity and same goes for Bat family films
> Really all films just take place in their own worlds
> No JL for a while
> Flashpoint the hell out of this mess


Moving forward is going back to 2012?    :Confused: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Moving forward I hope there is 
> No Zack Snyder
> No Ben Affleck
> Batman films by Reeves exist in their own continuity and same goes for Bat family films
> Really all films just take place in their own worlds
> No JL for a while
> Flashpoint the hell out of this mess


Moving forward I hope nearly none of this is true.

----------


## Calvinr

> Moving forward I hope nearly none of this is true.


Seconded..I honestly hope Affleck comes out with a statement (again) confirming his commitment to the series or is it true he genuinely wants out, Anyone know?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Moving forward I hope nearly none of this is true.


Same here. I wouldn't want that at all myself.

----------


## Myskin

> Moving forward I hope there is 
> No Zack Snyder
> No Ben Affleck
> Batman films by Reeves exist in their own continuity and same goes for Bat family films
> Really all films just take place in their own worlds
> No JL for a while
> Flashpoint the hell out of this mess


I cannot but agree with these points, especially #4.
Quite frankly, there is no need for a shared universe except for WB desperately trying to copy the Avengers. Most of these characters don't fit that well with each other (the Avengers can vaguely count on a common military background) and they haven't even a distinct personality to make them really recognizable (yes, including Superman, unfortunately). Fangasm aside, there is no need to have them unite in one movie, but there is a desperate need for each of them to find their own voice and their own "reason to be".

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Moving forward I hope nearly none of this is true.


The only thing I'd be ok with is a lack of Snyder. I don't think he's the worst, but I don't really want this film universe dominated by one person.

And no, no, no to Flashpoint retconnery (yup, making that a word): it was one thing when the X-Men franchise did it 15 years in, but to do it after less than 5 years is a bit extreme. DC Comics is already too quick on the draw with retcons, Crises, etc. The movies definitely don't need to follow suit.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> lol, Spidey s on the MCU now, he will be Fresh now. 
> 
> I  will not take these so called critics seriously anymore. after seeing Ragnarok score. A movie called like the norse apocalypse filled with cringey jokes.


Thor Ragnorok actually had a coherent plot and character development. Thats why it had a good RT score.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The only thing I'd be ok with is a lack of Snyder. I don't think he's the worst, but I don't really want this film universe dominated by one person.
> 
> And no, no, no to Flashpoint retconnery (yup, making that a word): it was one thing when the X-Men franchise did it 15 years in, but to do it after less than 5 years is a bit extreme. DC Comics is already too quick on the draw with retcons, Crises, etc. The movies definitely don't need to follow suit.


Agreed. Snyder moving on is logical for personal and artistic reasons, but the rest would be throwing away solid ingredients that serve as the foundation.

Batfleck is something I want to continue so badly.




> Thor Ragnorok actually had a coherent plot and character development. That’s why it had a good RT score.


There is nothing incoherent about MoS and the only thing incoherent about BvS is the knightmare scene.

----------


## Pinsir

> The only thing I'd be ok with is a lack of Snyder. I don't think he's the worst, but I don't really want this film universe dominated by one person.
> 
> And no, no, no to Flashpoint retconnery (yup, making that a word): it was one thing when the X-Men franchise did it 15 years in, but to do it after less than 5 years is a bit extreme. DC Comics is already too quick on the draw with retcons, Crises, etc. The movies definitely don't need to follow suit.


The CW show had a Flashpoint arc and nothing significant came from it. They changed the gender of a baby and that's about it.

----------


## Frontier

> The CW show had a Flashpoint arc and nothing significant came from it. They changed the gender of a baby and that's about it.


Well, Caitlin also got powers and Cisco's brother died. 

Also most of the villains and the season-long plot was tied to Flashpoint.

----------


## Pinsir

> Well, Caitlin also got powers and Cisco's brother died. 
> 
> Also most of the villains and the season-long plot was tied to Flashpoint.


But in terms of revisionism nothing much really happened. It wasn't an attempt to reboot the universe, like say, integrating Supergirl into the CW universe. Flashpoint was just a means to propel the story forward.

----------


## Elmo

> The CW show had a Flashpoint arc and nothing significant came from it. They changed the gender of a baby and that's about it.


I'd say an entire race of aliens deciding to wipe out all metahumans on earth solely because of Barry Allen's actions is pretty significant

----------


## robreedwrites

> You do realize by inserting the "Disney is paying critics" part into your diatribe you just spiked any point you were trying to make, right?





> yup,nobody here talked aboutt pay, just abou bias, wich is a totally human and possible thing. Seriously, some MCU  fans are too  insecure , considering how succesful those movies are


So neither of you has ever seen that particular phrase espoused anywhere? 

Seriously, I apologize if it came across like I was saying that anyone here, specifically, stated that Disney was paying critics, but I've seen that sentiment expressed in too many places by too many individuals that I felt it was worthy of inclusion when referencing this type of conversation.

----------


## mace11

> In the case of Spider-Man: Homecoming (as of this writing) it has a 92% RT score which just means that 92% of critics gave it a rating of 6/10 or higher. It's average rating as listed on RT was a 7.6/10. So most people thought it was good, not great. 
> 
> Wonder Woman has the exact same RT score of 92% and the same average rating of 7.6/10, though it has 54 more reviews than Spider-Man: Homecoming does at this point in time. 
> 
> Thor: Ragnarok has a higher RT score of 93%, however it's average rating is 7.5/10. So a larger percentage of people overall enjoyed it (this may be because it has less reviews than both films at 292), but not to the same degree (once again, talking averages) than Spider-Man: Homecoming and Wonder Woman.


These would critics score,not most people scores.For most people you have to see the audiences score.
Critics are not most people.

Now for average critics scores and what they mean.
7.5/10 and higher is considered great.
7.5 is 4 stars out 5 stars.
9.5/10 and higher is excellent.
5 stars out 5 stars.


6.5/10 to 7.4/10 is very good movie.NOT GREAT.
That would be 3 1/2 stars out 5 stars.
5.5/10 TO 6.4/10 is good,not very good.
That's 3 stars out 5 stars.

----------


## Styles

Zachary Levi Describes 'Shazam' As 'Big' With Super Powers

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Look the DCEU is in no danger. It's how the audience react to it that matters, if Hughes prediction of A- on cinema score is correct and the film holds well until SW, that's success. 

It's not that serious think we all need to take a deep breath and watch some JL:TAS episodes ready for Friday!

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

As for the Flixster score leak, I'm not seeing it on my phone. So they either fixed it, my version's a POS (I use a Windows Phone, so it's entirely possible that my app just sucks) or the story was a buncha hooey.

Guess we'll find out for sure once RT does their insipid reveal show.

As for reviews in general, I think review score aggregators are some of the worst things ever created in regards to the arts. They are an attempt to make something that's inherently subjective (criticism) and make it objective (a solid number), and that's the complete antithesis of quality criticism.

I don't even like scores/grades in reviews: I like to read how the critic feels in his/her own words and determine whether or not I think I agree (or will agree, if I haven't seen a movie yet) with it.

----------


## robreedwrites

> These would critics score,not *most people* scores.For most people you have to see the audiences score.
> Critics are not most people.
> 
> Now for average critics scores and what they mean.
> 7.5/10 and higher is considered great.
> 7.5 is 4 stars out 5 stars.
> 9.5/10 and higher is excellent.
> 5 stars out 5 stars.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, when I said "most people" I was referencing the population of people that could have contributed to the statistics I was reviewing (in other words the critics). I'm aware of the audience score. There's also no value assigned to the numbers of the average scores on Rotten Tomatoes as you've listed here, unless they're listed when critics assign a number (I have no access to that view to see how RT meters that out if they do at all). What I mean by this is that a 7/10 for one person might be considered average (I tend to naturally lean this way, in part because my school grades (ie, the critical score that I was most subject to in life), 70 was a C or a D depending on the teacher, so my own internal numbering tends to skew higher as everything below 70 kind of just registers as degrees of fail), while a 7/10 for others might be considered good but not great. The interpretation of a numerical/star rating is pretty variable, unless a particular site provides a metric for their numbers.

----------


## Jaddor

you know what seems funny to me about the JL reviews, the reviews seem to have the same content as thor ragnarok and gotg 2.lol,

ah, anyone that does not think there is an agenda in Hollywood and the media to make sure mcu stays what they think is on top may be way too uninformed

----------


## ekrolo2

> Thor Ragnorok actually had a coherent plot and character development. That’s why it had a good RT score.


Ragnarok has no script, much less a plot or character development. It and JL sound like the same kind of mess, all flash no substance.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Surtur had horrible CGI. 
Hela during her fight scenes had awful CGI. 

I didn’t see those called out but Steppenwolf is apprently the worst thing to grace cinema according tonsome of the exaggerated reviews. 

Means I’ll probably end up loving Steppenwolf.

----------


## jertz666

https://movieweb.com/justice-league-...s-score-leaks/

Rotten Tomatoes has postponed releasing the score till Thursday but the current score is supposedly at 48%.  Metacritic has it at 51 so far.

----------


## robreedwrites

> Surtur had horrible CGI. 
> Hela during her fight scenes had awful CGI. 
> 
> I didn’t see those called out but Steppenwolf is apprently the worst thing to grace cinema according tonsome of the exaggerated reviews. 
> 
> Means I’ll probably end up loving Steppenwolf.


My best guess is that Steppenwolf is unconvincing in execution, but realistic in design. Surtur's a big crazy fire monster so it's harder to determine what is poor CGI and what is just your brain deciphering what he is. I've only seen Ragnarok once, but I don't recall Hela herself looking unrealistic during action sequences. Steppenwolf has (at least from what I can tell from the trailers/tv spots) a more realistic looking face. Since your brain knows what a human-like face is supposed to look like, if anything is off your brain picks up on it faster and so even if it's actually better animation, it "feels" worse. Same things were said with Rogue One's Tarkin. The actual imagery is pretty fantastic, but when composited and interacting with actual human beings, the brain picks it out almost instantaneously.

----------


## El_Gato

> https://movieweb.com/justice-league-...s-score-leaks/
> 
> Rotten Tomatoes has postponed releasing the score till Thursday but the current score is supposedly at 48%.  Metacritic has it at 51 so far.


Last RT update had it at 52% with 51 reviews counted. There's a screenshot to back it up too.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> There is nothing incoherent about MoS and the only thing incoherent about BvS is the knightmare scene.


MoS is choppy in its pace at best. Everything just happens and nothing ever lands nor do we get to even know the characters were following. BvS is very much the same thing, except its a slog to get through and by the end you dont know the motives for any of the characters involved.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Surtur had horrible CGI. 
> Hela during her fight scenes had awful CGI. 
> 
> I didnt see those called out but Steppenwolf is apprently the worst thing to grace cinema according tonsome of the exaggerated reviews. 
> 
> Means Ill probably end up loving Steppenwolf.


Some films it's not about the villain but the hero(es), JL is a prime example of that, heck it was why I was forgiving of Thor because it wasn't about any villain more about Thor. 

Like you're going to the film to see the heroes not the villain, so when I read people "villain was bad but at least they got the heroes right", if anything a good villain should be considered a bonus, I'm suprised with so many meh villains in CBM since 2008 people still expect a good one. Ledger's Joker lacked any motivation and was just crazy so villains are bad cuz they are bad there doesn't need to be any deep seeded motivation.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Ragnarok has no script, much less a plot or character development. It and JL sound like the same kind of mess, all flash no substance.


So Loki coming to realize he in fact wants the love of his brother isn’t development? Thor realizing that his hammer wasn’t what defined him isn’t character development? Thor becoming king of Asgard isn’t development?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> So Loki coming to realize he in fact wants the love of his brother isn’t development? Thor realizing that his hammer wasn’t what defined him isn’t character development?


Heh took 2 team up films, and a third solo one for Thor to finally have some development!!

----------


## Jabare

Thor Ragnarok is by far the best Thor movie we've ever had, which isn't saying much because the past two are very forgettable despite great casts.

Thor Ragnaroks story is very simplistic it just works thanks to the characters and their chemistry. Throw in some action and comedy with some cool scoff cinematography.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Heh took 2 team up films, and a third solo one for Thor to finally have some development!!


Then you weren’t paying attention to the first film where he starts out as a warhungry brat and ends up realizing the error of his ways. That’s a textbook example of development.

----------


## quibo

Holy f#$king s#$t, there are actually people here who think there's some anti-DC hollywood conspiracy!  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  I'd love to see them try and explain the motivations and mechanics for that sinister plot! I'd be teary eyed by the end i'm sure.

Doesn't it seem much more likely that they simply screwed up bad and handed the keys to the wrong damn people? Probably the best thing they could do at this point is beg Patty Jenkins to take over the whole thing and file a restraining order against Zack Synder.

----------


## Carabas

> Then you weren’t paying attention to the first film where he starts out as a warhungry brat and ends up realizing the error of his ways.


See, my main point with the first Thor film is largely thesame asmy main point with Star Wars Ep. III.
There is no character development. 
Thor's change from dudebro to hero and Anakin's change from Jedi to Sith are not earned. They just happen all of a sudden mostly because the movie is running out of time. It's like somebody just flipped a switch in their heads.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> MoS is choppy in its pace at best. Everything just happens and nothing ever lands nor do we get to even know the characters we’re following. BvS is very much the same thing, except it’s a slog to get through and by the end you don’t know the motives for any of the characters involved.


Choppy in pace doesn't mean it's incoherent. I don't know what you mean by not getting to know the characters since they all verbally vocalize their feelings but that also doesn't have to do with plot coherence. And I'm absolutely appalled by someone suggesting that the motives of BvS are unclear when the first half of the movie does nothing but set up the motivations for the climax. Bizarre how people manage to miss so much of a movie.

----------


## Carabas

> Holy f#$king s#$t, there are actually people here who think there's some anti-DC hollywood conspiracy!


Just one guy.
Same guy  that made talking about anything vaguely movie-related on the Marvel side on the boards impossible with his gish gallop.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Choppy in pace doesn't mean it's incoherent. I don't know what you mean by not getting to know the characters since they all verbally vocalize their feelings but that also doesn't have to do with plot coherence. And I'm absolutely appalled by someone suggesting that the motives of BvS are unclear when the first half of the movie does nothing but set up the motivations for the climax. Bizarre how people manage to miss so much of a movie.


If everything is rushed, that diminishes the chances of the movie being coherent. That’s just simply the truth. If you jump from one scene to another is fast succession, it’s harder to follow along. And as for getting to know the characters, it’s because we hardly spend enough time with them to get to know them.

We hardly see any character development or exploration on the screen. What was it that drew Lois to Superman? Why does Clark go trekking across the country by himself playing the grifter? What was the trajectory of Lois and Clark’s relationship, since at the end of MoS they’re still relatively strangers and then the next time we see them they’re living together? Why is Luthor so suspicious of Superman and what causes his insanity? What does he have to gain by blowing up the Senate building? Did Batman really just turn on a dime because he heard the word “Martha”?

There are a slew of other questions that the movie doesn’t bother to or simply fails to provide any sort of meaningful answers for. Fans are left to fill in the blanks for themselves and just because they might be able to do so doesn’t mean the movie should get a pass.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> See, my main point with the first Thor film is largely thesame asmy main point with Star Wars Ep. III.
> There is no character development. 
> Thor's change from dudebro to hero and Anakin's change from Jedi to Sith are not earned. They just happen all of a sudden mostly because the movie is running out of time. It's like somebody just flipped a switch in their heads.


His character development comes about because of the time he spends with Jane and the crew. He is left on a world thinking he was sent there as penance for allowing his father to die and then comes to care for the people living there. He realizes that war and  conquest have their costs when before he doesn’t care. That is development.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Thor Ragnorok actually had a coherent plot and character development. Thats why it had a good RT score.


And it wasn't written at all like a Thor Movie. The only recurring character that felt like his past self was Loki, and maybe Banner. Odinson felt like Starlord 3.0. I was expecting Groot and Rocket to show up at any moment.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> And it wasn't written at all like a Thor Movie. The only recurring character that felt like his past self was Loki, and maybe Banner. Odinson felt like Starlord 3.0. I was expecting Groot and Rocket to show up at any moment.


Okay? The point is it was still a good movie. It was different for a Thor movie (though not totally out of the wheelhouse for Thor) but it was well-written, well-acted, etc. And it’s not like the Thor comics have never dipped their toes into the cosmic side of the MU.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> And it wasn't written at all like a Thor Movie. The only recurring character that felt like his past self was Loki, and maybe Banner. Odinson felt like Starlord 3.0. I was expecting Groot and Rocket to show up at any moment.


Funny Thor certainly doesn't resemble his comic-book persona.

----------


## Jabare

Justice League is the best Marvel movie DC has ever made

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Ragnarok has no script, much less a plot or character development. It and JL sound like the same kind of mess, all flash no substance.


Yet one is Fresh and hailed as a new benchmark for Marvel ( god help us) and the other is the worst thing ever according to some reviews.

Again I don't hate Ragnarok. I had fun but it didn't feel consistent with the previous entry and it felt like it was pandering to get more seats, even if it meant killing any appearance of stakes and throwing in potty humor.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Okay? The point is it was still a good movie. It was different for a Thor movie (though not totally out of the wheelhouse for Thor) but it was well-written, well-acted, etc.


It wasn't a mess narritively maybe, and the actors were good. but it wasn't a Thor Movie. It was pretty much Guardians Vol 3 with characters that look like Odinson and gang but don't act like them. 

Oh and Devil's anus.

It was fun and ok for a Time waster, but I don't see myself watching it again anytime soon.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> If everything is rushed, that diminishes the chances of the movie being coherent. That’s just simply the truth. If you jump from one scene to another is fast succession, it’s harder to follow along. And as for getting to know the characters, it’s because we hardly spend enough time with them to get to know them.
> 
> We hardly see any character development or exploration on the screen. What was it that drew Lois to Superman? Why does Clark go trekking across the country by himself playing the grifter? What was the trajectory of Lois and Clark’s relationship, since at the end of MoS they’re still relatively strangers and then the next time we see them they’re living together? Why is Luthor so suspicious of Superman and what causes his insanity? What does he have to gain by blowing up the Senate building? Did Batman really just turn on a dime because he heard the word “Martha”?
> 
> There are a slew of other questions that the movie doesn’t bother to or simply fails to provide any sort of meaningful answers for. Fans are left to fill in the blanks for themselves and just because they might be able to do so doesn’t mean the movie should get a pass.


If you didn't infer or take away the same things regarding the characters relationships, I can't change that. These things have been explained by those that didn't need to have it explained to them countless times. But coherence is manageable for anyone with the ability to follow a straightforward sequence of events. There's nothing confusing about what's going on in Man of Steel at all and everyone's motivations in BvS are plainly laid out.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It wasn't a mess narritively maybe, and the actors were good. but it wasn't a Thor Movie. It was pretty much Guardians Vol 3 with characters that look like Odinson and gang but don't act like them. 
> 
> Oh and Devil's anus.


Really didn’t see how Thor acted out of character. And Loki, Hulk, and the rest most definitely acted in character.

Also, Devils Anus is supposed to be ridiculous. It’s meant as a joke.

----------


## Lightning Rider

So for those of us looking forward to the movie, what are you watching for prep? I turned on "Hereafter" and am watching it right now since the themes seems pretty consistent.

----------


## Lokimaru

> If everything is rushed, that diminishes the chances of the movie being coherent. Thats just simply the truth. If you jump from one scene to another is fast auccesssoon, its harder to follow along. And as for getting to know the characters, its because we hardly spend enough time with them to get to know them.
> 
> We hardly see any character development or exploration on the screen. What was it that drew Lous to Superman? Why does Clark go treking across the country by himself playing the grifter? What was the trajectory of Lois and Clarks relationship, since at the end of MoS theyre still relatively strangers and then the next time we see them theyre living together? Why is Luthor so suspicious of Superman? What does he have to gain by blowing up the Senate building? Did Batman really just turn on a dime because he heard the word Martha?
> 
> There are a slew of other questions that the movie doesnt bother to or simply fails to provide any sort of meaningful answers for. Fans are left to fill in the blanks for themselves and just because they might be able to do so doesnt mean the movie should get a pass.


I'd rather a movie give me the chance to put the pieces together myself instead of spoon feeding me all the answers. It makes me more engaged with the film instead of setting there bored to tears.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> If you didn't infer or take away the same things regarding the characters relationships, I can't change that. These things have been explained by those that didn't need to have it explained to them countless times. But coherence is manageable for anyone with the ability to follow a straightforward sequence of events. There's nothing confusing about what's going on in Man of Steel at all and everyone's motivations in BvS are plainly laid out.


I never said I couldn’t follow along with MoS. I know what happened. It’s just a narrative mess because it felt like I was being rushed from one event to the next with no opportunity to slow down. That’s what I mean when I say it was incoherent. I can vaguely determine what happened, but it wasn’t really well told.

Same thing with BvS except BvS had the added “bonus” of nothing being explained and/or set up satisfactorily, including the questions I provided in my above post. So I would not say that things were at all plainly laid out.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> If everything is rushed, that diminishes the chances of the movie being coherent. That’s just simply the truth. If you jump from one scene to another is fast succession, it’s harder to follow along. And as for getting to know the characters, it’s because we hardly spend enough time with them to get to know them.
> 
> We hardly see any character development or exploration on the screen. What was it that drew Lois to Superman? Why does Clark go trekking across the country by himself playing the grifter? What was the trajectory of Lois and Clark’s relationship, since at the end of MoS they’re still relatively strangers and then the next time we see them they’re living together? Why is Luthor so suspicious of Superman and what causes his insanity? What does he have to gain by blowing up the Senate building? Did Batman really just turn on a dime because he heard the word “Martha”?
> 
> There are a slew of other questions that the movie doesn’t bother to or simply fails to provide any sort of meaningful answers for. Fans are left to fill in the blanks for themselves and just because they might be able to do so doesn’t mean the movie should get a pass.


Those questions are all answered though. I’m confused by the confusion lol 

They may not be meaningful answers to specific viewers, but they are answers all the same.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I'd rather a movie give me the chance to put the pieces together myself instead of spoon feeding me all the answers. It makes me more engaged with the film instead of setting there bored to tears.


There’s a difference between spoon feeding and giving audiences enough answers so they CAN piece together the things they’re not explicitly told. But again, the filmmaker has to give enough information for the audience to have a foundation to go on. The people who give DC movies a bad review don’t do so because they’re not smart enough to follow along. It’s because the filmmaker hasn’t given them anything to follow along to.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Those questions are all answered though. I’m confused by the confusion lol 
> 
> They may not be meaningful answers to specific viewers, but they are answers all the same.


No they’re not. We never see how Luthor got the way he is. We don’t see how Lois and Clar’s relationship unfolded. We don’t see a lot of things in these movies.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I personally do not care about reviews they have no effect on me but I still care about if they are well written, and some these simply are not. Why some of these reviews feel the need to compare is beyond whether to the MCU or the DCEU's own WW, WW and JL are two different films trying to achieve two different things, one review spent blabbing about how the movie was a hot choc chip cookie that you find a cockroach in, and I am there dumbfounded like this is a professional is it?
On the flip Stuckmann's video review was great, (I skipped some mins when I felt he was talking about plot points a bit too much) but what I watched it was a fair review, he didn't compare to anything, aside from a one hand comment about the SS editing, he just talked about the film for what it was. Instead most reviewers are more concerned with throw hot words around and then basing their review around that.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> So for those of us looking forward to the movie, what are you watching for prep? I turned on "Hereafter" and am watching it right now since the themes seems pretty consistent.


Got the new Pokemon game early so playing that to bide time until Friday lol.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> No they’re not. We never see how Luthor got the way he is. We don’t see how Lois and Clar’s relationship unfolded. We don’t see a lot of things in these movies.


Lois is drawn to Superman because of what happened in his ship. They are pretty clearly into each other by the end of MoS, so 18 months later they are living together (as people often do). Did you need a scene of Clark moving in with boxes? Lol 

Lex mentions his father a few times, and even tells Superman “no god flew down from the sky to save me from Daddy’s fists and abominations.” I’m not trying to be argumentative, but these things are there.

----------


## ekrolo2

> So Loki coming to realize he in fact wants the love of his brother isnt development? Thor realizing that his hammer wasnt what defined him isnt character development? Thor becoming king of Asgard isnt development?


Loki's character fluctuates randomly. In the first two Thor movies the intent with Thor and Loki's dynamic was clear: Thor was the super star people liked but he doesn't have it in him to be cruel or overly pragmatic like Loki or Odin, his entire ending speech from Dark World to Odin (Loki) cements that fact. Loki might never be loved, but he's got it in him to rule, come this movie and all he does is get fat, lazy and make dumb plays to jerk off to himself. Then Thor tells him he's a parody of himself and Loki decides to save him? After he was fine with ditching Thor and letting Asgard burn before Thor zaps him? The fuck is the arc there?

Thor, much like many of the MCU cast, is way to non-chalant and whatever about the fact Asgard is being taken over, his dad is dead and Mjolnir is gone. He literally verbally makes light of this and yes, I get it that the MCU's thing is making everyone non-chalant and snarky about fucking everything, but that's not a good thing. Thor in the first two films is able to take severe things with the proper response. In Thor 1, he's disgusted and outraged Loki's gonna commit genocide just so Odin will love him, in this movie? He'd make some dumb gag about it and it'd be water under the bridge. 

Like I said above, Thor becoming king means nothing, how does realizing you can fire lightning out of everything instead of just a hammer in any way prove you're king worthy now? If Thor did some Odin/Loki type shit where he has to sacrifice some of the people to save the rest, calling back to the first two movies, especially Dark World, where being King means doing nasty shit to your own subjects, that would be a development. Not a naturally earned one cause Thor in scene one of Ragnarok is how he acts in fucking every scene ever but at least there'd be ties to the previous films there.

Ragnarok is a movie that makes a lot of changes but none of it means anything due to the fact it has no script and it's primary concern is being an action comedy. It succeeds at the latter but the former robs any of his changes from meaning anything at all.

----------


## Carabas

> His character development comes about because of the time he spends with Jane and the crew. He is left on a world thinking he was sent there as penance for allowing his father to die and then comes to care for the people living there. He realizes that war and  conquest have their costs when before he doesnt care. That is development.


I'm not seeing it.

I'm seeing him go from the same arrogant smug git that got kicked out of Asgard to hero in a few seconds.

----------


## Buried Alien

> So for those of us looking forward to the movie, what are you watching for prep? I turned on "Hereafter" and am watching it right now since the themes seems pretty consistent.


Ironically, some old SUPERFRIENDS cartoons from the 70s and 80s.  Somehow, it's fitting at this time to revisit how it all began for me.   :Smile: 

Wonder if the movie has any nods to the old SUPERFRIENDS cartoons.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Lois is drawn to Superman because of what happened in his ship. They are pretty clearly into each other by the end of MoS, so 18 months later they are living together (as people often do). Did you need a scene of Clark moving in with boxes? Lol


No, I don’t need an actual moving in scene. But it’s not as if I’m being unreasonable to want to see a more natural evolution of their relationship. To see how it gets to the point. For it one minute to be then just “meeting” at the Planet and the next to be them already living together with him ready to propose is jarring to say the least. This is Lois and Clark. They deserve a more flushed out romance.




> Lex mentions his father a few times, and even tells Superman “no god flew down from the sky to save me from Daddy’s fists and abominations.” I’m not trying to be argumentative, but these things are there.


That’s incredibly vague and in fact tangential. So he hates Superman because he was abused by his dad? What does his dad have to do with Superman? How would anyone make the jump from abuse to hatred of an alien hero. Wouldn’t abuse by his very human father be more of a reason for Lex to hate humans as opposed to aliens?

See, when looked at with a critical lens, much of this stuff doesn’t make sense.

----------


## byrd156

> The difference is, again, most of the time it seems reviewers will overlook those weaknesses in Marvel movies and seize on those same weaknesses in DC movies and pick the movie to death.


The reason these issues are overlooked in the Marvel movies is because of the entertainment factor of the Marvel films so far. Marvel has had garbage villains but fun and entertaining leads on screen. People and critics are willing to overlook CGI bad guys or a disposable army, etc if they enjoy the hero of the movie and if the adventure is entertaining along the way. DC is getting bashed because most people don't like the portrayals of the heroes so far with the exception of WW and apparently JL so far. A lot of the critic reception that I have seen so far ranges from the lukewarm to the positive side with the main reasons for liking JL is the actual team.

----------


## byrd156

> Seriously guys this bias stuff holds no weight.
> 
> For starters many Marvel movies are actually criticised for their use of CGI, their weak villains, and their use of humour. Go and actually see for yourselves that they are. Ragnarok was, GotG Vol. 2 was, Doctor Strange was, Spider-Man was, and so on. No Marvel movie has a 100% rating on RT because not every critic has liked them. Critics are not a hivemind. And Wonder Woman just came out like what, 5 months ago? That movie was lauded by critics and I'd argue it has some darker and more serious moments that MCU movies. Why was it not panned? Look at Logan. Downright depressing movie. Still lauded by critics. Both movies have Oscar buzz. You can't just keep throwing around this idea of bias to avoid the real problems Snyder's movies have. Like them if you want to, but don't go around doubting other people's integrity because you disagree with them. It comes across like you've made up your mind to love this movie no matter what, instead of keeping an open mind. And that's bordering on fanaticism. It's also downright hypocritical to disagree with critics on a movie like Ragnarok, but imply that they are the ones who are wrong because you don't agree. 
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, Zack Snyder isn't that good of an objective director as you think he is. Like him if you want (I do kinda like 300 and Watchmen), but you can't keep going around saying people have a bias and are wrong because you disagree.
> 
> Now honestly in the later months of this movie's promotional run, I became a lot more optimistic than I was before. I thought it looked good. I'm sure they'll be a bunch of moments I'll love. But that's not enough for a movie to be objectively good. And production and post production hiccups aside, this movie was built on a very poor foundation in my opinion. BvS was not the right next step to build this franchise, both as a story and as a movie. But we all know that Zack Snyder loves Frank Miller, and it shows. He loves deconstruction way too much for someone who wants to construct a universe. I doubt any version of Justice League in the DCEU would have been excellent at this stage it was put out. It's happening way too soon, and as a story it feels rushed. Had it been a standalone movie, it could have been great. From what I hear, the cast is actually pretty good in this film. And the fact like it seems as though this movie was trying to fix everything from BvS. Avengers wasn't fixing anything. It wss building on. And look, say what you want about Marvel, but at least they've stuck to their guns, to the point were some people say their movies are formulaic (kinda dumb if you ask me). Unlike WB/DC who have been so reactionary. 
> 
> I'm still hyped for Aquaman and WW2, Deathstroke and Shazam, but I don't think I'll care too much about this universe. Yes I will form my opinion on this movie, but this isn't encouraging at all.


I think you really hit the nail on the head.

----------


## byrd156

> Haven't seen it yet, but tbh, from the reviews, it sounds like Warner Brothers butchered the film with Whedon's reshoots being stitched in. Would have preferred to see the OG Snyder vision.


There is no OG Synder version because he left halfway through production because his daughter died. Wheadon was brought in to pick up the reins since there wasn't a director to finish up the film.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Loki's character fluctuates randomly. In the first two Thor movies the intent with Thor and Loki's dynamic was clear: Thor was the super star people liked but he doesn't have it in him to be cruel or overly pragmatic like Loki or Odin, his entire ending speech from Dark World to Odin (Loki) cements that fact. Loki might never be loved, but he's got it in him to rule, come this movie and all he does is get fat, lazy and make dumb plays to jerk off to himself. Then Thor tells him he's a parody of himself and Loki decides to save him? After he was fine with ditching Thor and letting Asgard burn before Thor zaps him? The fuck is the arc there?
> 
> Thor, much like many of the MCU cast, is way to non-chalant and whatever about the fact Asgard is being taken over, his dad is dead and Mjolnir is gone. He literally verbally makes light of this and yes, I get it that the MCU's thing is making everyone non-chalant and snarky about fucking everything, but that's not a good thing. Thor in the first two films is able to take severe things with the proper response. In Thor 1, he's disgusted and outraged Loki's gonna commit genocide just so Odin will love him, in this movie? He'd make some dumb gag about it and it'd be water under the bridge. 
> 
> Like I said above, Thor becoming king means nothing, how does realizing you can fire lightning out of everything instead of just a hammer in any way prove you're king worthy now? If Thor did some Odin/Loki type shit where he has to sacrifice some of the people to save the rest, calling back to the first two movies, especially Dark World, where being King means doing nasty shit to your own subjects, that would be a development. Not a naturally earned one cause Thor in scene one of Ragnarok is how he acts in fucking every scene ever but at least there'd be ties to the previous films there.
> 
> Ragnarok is a movie that makes a lot of changes but none of it means anything due to the fact it has no script and it's primary concern is being an action comedy. It succeeds at the latter but the former robs any of his changes from meaning anything at all.


What movie did you see? Loki didn’t get fat or lazy. He’s always been the kind of character to play both sides and do whatever he believes was in his own advantage. And in that moment he believed it was in his best interest to gain the favor and trust of the Grandmaster. That’s kind of Loki’s whole thing. He’s a manipulator. But then he proves himself by going to fight alongside his brother and the other Asgardians against Hela on the bridge.

And the whole movie was dedicated to Thor trying to find a way home to help his people, with multiple escape attempts and trying to get Valkyrie to help him. And of course there was also the whole plot point of Thor figuring out how to be Thor without Mjolnir. Just because they poked a little fun at it doesn’t mean it was something that didn’t bother him.

And him learning how to be Thor without a crutch (the hammer) is very much a sign that he’s ready to be king. That, and also the fact that he did make a sacrifice. He sacrificed the realm of Asgard itself. He came to the realization that Asgard is a people not a place and made the necessary sacrifice to defeat Hela.

All of these things are what made Ragnorok a great movie

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Really didnt see how Thor acted out of character. And Loki, Hulk, and the rest most definitely acted in character.
> 
> Also, Devils Anus is supposed to be ridiculous. Its meant as a joke.


I know it was a joke, albeit a poor one that they kept bringing up. The first time was enough, but know they kept mentioning it because " heh heh anus is a naughty word. Funny".

----------


## Lightning Rider

Forgot to mention I downloaded Trinity War and Forever Evil to read Darkseid War before I see the film. 

I see somehow we're transported back to 2016.

Lex's motivations are fleshed out by the following:

-His dad growing up in East Germany and passing down a natural skepticism of power & wariness of tyrants. In the dialogue. 
-The government being reluctant to even create a deterrent for metahumans forcing him to bypass the red tape. In the script. 
-Lex having secret knowledge that metahumans walk among us undiscovered. In the script. 
-Lex's philosophical disagreement with human knowledge being rendered inept in the face of divine power. In the script. 
-The "problem of evil" skepticism of Superman's pure intentions due to suffering child abuse. In the dialogue. 

Comic book Lex's agenda never gets any more fleshed out than this. It's a genius's ego combined with fervent an anti-alien skepticism. That's Lex. It's what we got.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I know it was a joke, albeit a poor one that they kept bringing up. The first time was enough, but know they kept mentioning it because " heh heh anus is a naughty word. Funny".


Biggest flaw with the MCU is recycled gags and joke. It was super obnoxious in GotG 2 and Thor wasn't as bad but still annoying all the same.

----------


## Frontier

> Biggest flaw with the MCU is recycled gags and joke. It was super obnoxious in GotG 2 and Thor wasn't as bad but still annoying all the same.


I'm surprised by how cartoonish _Vol. 2_ got at times.

----------


## manofsteel1979

One thing I will say is that it does feel like there is a missing film between MOS and BvS. I mean you aren't completely lost to say, Lex's motivations in BvS, but we could have used another Superman solo film to set up his threat and pay off in BvS. 

If WB wasn't so hell bent in rushing to JL, it could have been doable. You could even have conceivably had an MOS 2 and BvS film back to back and come out in the same year or a year apart. It may have only pushed a JL film back a year or 6 months. Marvel has already beat DC to the punch in getting a couple Superhero team movie made. I don't buy the argument they should have given everyone a solo movie leading into JL, but a second Superman movie would have been helpful IMO.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'm surprised by how cartoonish _Vol. 2_ got at times.


Definitely not like the comic I read as a kid.  :Smile:

----------


## Jaddor

> The reason these issues are overlooked in the Marvel movies is because of the entertainment factor of the Marvel films so far. Marvel has had garbage villains but fun and entertaining leads on screen. People and critics are willing to overlook CGI bad guys or a disposable army, etc if they enjoy the hero of the movie and if the adventure is entertaining along the way. DC is getting bashed because most people don't like the portrayals of the heroes so far with the exception of WW and apparently JL so far. A lot of the critic reception that I have seen so far ranges from the lukewarm to the positive side with the main reasons for liking JL is the actual team.



and it should never be the case because marvel is ''entertaining'' things like these are the reason simon pegg once said comic films are dumbing down the industry ...especially now that they dont treat then equally.

lets all face it, the press and critics was never going to like DC fully, infact i think  they regretted praising wonder woman, see how the critics all came out strong  for homecoming and thor 3 that are mediocre movies, that was done to keep DC in check and to make sure  dc stand no threat to marvel even with the success of wonder woman.

from the reviews, the content of JL reviews seems more in line with GOTG 2 at least and that movie got a pass. JL is not. what proof again do we need to see the bias is real.

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## tako

> There is no OG Synder version because he left halfway through production because his daughter died. Wheadon was brought in to pick up the reins since there wasn't a director to finish up the film.


Whedon was brought during post production. Editing the film. Reshoots. Added tiny bits to an already scripted and shot film. Removed parts as well. There is a version of the film Snyder envisioned.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> 


Lol Ben reminds me so much of Bats haha trying to keep straight. Ahh love the cast! 

Wonder where the reviewer who said Gal looked sad in JL because deep down she didn't wanna be there and knew it was a mess... (Yup that's how bad they are).

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Biggest flaw with the MCU is recycled gags and joke. It was super obnoxious in GotG 2 and Thor wasn't as bad but still annoying all the same.



dont forget Drax Ginormous turds . Thats some high leel humor  there  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I  know i dont give tthis impression, but im no MCU  hater, i usually enjoy tttheir entries, but they usually dont hvae much re wacth value for me . And is obvious at this point that their flaws tend to be overlooked . Lest say that a MCU  movie succeds if it entertained you enough, fine, but looks like the DC  entries have the pressure to be the goodfather  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## BatmanJones

> At the very least Kalibak is more recognizable than Steppenwolf, i recall seeing him in several episodes of Superman TAS, Justice League, and JLU, anyone who grew up on the DCAU and is an adult now should recognize him... though admitedly I recall him being kind of a chump...
> 
> Steppenwolf on the other hand?, has he ever appeared outside of comics?


There's simply no excuse for going Fourth World and not using Darkseid. It's the freaking Justice League. They need a real challenge. Not a c-list New Gods character. If you're going New Gods you don't go Steppenwolf, Kalibak, Desaad, Kanto, Granny Goodness or anyone else but DARKSEID.

I was very clear that I LOVED this movie and I gave it the highest rating in the poll but as worried friends have asked me, "What about the villain?" (Or CG. Or plot/story/narrative) I found myself answering in the negative. And whenever they asked me those questions I had to say that all those things were actually quite bad or just forgettable but it was still my favorite superhero movie because of the characters, their interactions, and the incredible amount of fan service.

This is what I've been wanting from DC movies since at least Batman (1989) and it's the first time ever that we've gotten it. It made me so excited to see these characters again and I will see it on the big screen as often as possible.

Objectively, The Dark Knight is my favorite superhero movie but _subjectively_, accounting for the thing that was missing from all prior DC films, that fan service thing that makes you go, "I can't believe I'm seeing this nostalgic scene in such glorious live action" is there over and over and over and over again. And Affleck was right when he said the best parts hadn't been spoiled by trailers.

Pretty much every good part of BvS was spoiled by trailers but here they ran so many trailers for a 2 hour movie and still all the best surprises remained that: surprises.

This is the movie *I* have been waiting for my whole life. That obviously does not translate to a high critic score and now I get a taste of what BvS lovers felt. Except that they seemed to really care about the bashing of the movie while I don't care that people bash JL. It doesn't affect my enjoyment in the least. I'm still going back to see it over and over again and it will remain my favorite because it has everything I've always wanted but that's always been sort of missing. 

My ONLY concern about the reviews is what they mean for the future. I finally get the movie I've wanted forever, the movie makes fans SO eager to see them together again, and maybe the result is that they don't follow up on what makes this movie great.

The second post-credit scene was incredibly exciting if you believe they'll make another JL film. I'm hoping against hope they are so we can see that followup. But more than anything I just want to see them show enough bravery to continue with this incredibly satisfying path. Any regular reader here knows how deeply I disliked BvS. But I loved JL about 100 times more than I disliked BvS. In fact it almost made me appreciate BvS since it felt like it was maybe necessary to getting JL.

I only wish the reviews were better so they'd keep going and keep going according to what worked so well about JL. If not, I'll just buy it (I will either way) and watch it a million times instead of bogging down on things that are utterly out of my control.

Critics be damned. This is still an A+ from me. I can't imagine loving a superhero movie more than I did this one.

----------


## ekrolo2

> What movie did you see? Loki didnt get fat or lazy. Hes always been the kind of character to play both sides and do whatever he believes was in his own advantage. And in that moment he believed it was in his best interest to gain the favor and trust of the Grandmaster. Thats kind of Lokis whole thing. Hes a manipulator. But then he proves himself by going to fight alongside his brother and the other Asgardians against Hela on the bridge.
> 
> And the whole movie was dedicated to Thor trying to find a way home to help his people, with multiple escape attempts and trying to get Valkyrie to help him. And of course there was also the whole plot point of Thor figuring out how to be Thor without Mjolnir. Just because they poked a little fun at it doesnt mean it was something that didnt bother him.
> 
> And him learning how to be Thor without a crutch (the hammer) is very much a sign that hes ready to be king. That, and also the fact that he did make a sacrifice. He sacrificed the realm of Asgard itself. He came to the realization that Asgard is a people not a place and made the necessary sacrifice to defeat Hela.
> 
> All of these things are what made Ragnorok a great movie


He literally accomplishes nothing as Asgard's ruler but sit on his ass and make plays that parody The Dark World. He doesn't apparently add any policies, he doesn't try to conquer anything, he just sits on his ass, eats and lolzs at Thor while Thors gone. What the hell happened? Where's the guy with the ambition? Where's the guy who had the makings of a king? He's a joke, an directionless joke like his comic counterpart who's fine with with letting Asgard burn but then Thor out trolls him and suddenly Loki cares enough to go save it? 

Thor realizing he can go Super Saiyan does not make you ready to be a king, the point of Thor 1 and Dark World is that to be a king means doing more shit then having the biggest stick and knowing how to swing it. It's about sometimes needing to be manipulative and awful to your own people, Thor is not king material because he lacks some of Odin and Loki's cruelty, the movie WOULD make a case for Thor learning something if he had to sacrifice some of the people along with Asgard but they pussy out and have him save basically everyone but Skurge in the final evacuation while Surtur destroys a boring planet the audience never cares for. And this makes him king worth? Really? In a movie that purports a lot of stuff Hela and Odin did to prove their authority, destroying your house with next to no casualties doesn't mean anything if you ask me. 

Thor's learning to fight without Mjolnir is also no real arc, he goes Super Saiyan a couple of times when he gets pushed and that's it. There's no real learning behind his new powers, 90% of the movie without it he can kick ass just fine without it and when he's pressured, he goes Super Saiyan and beats the ass of the opposition. The only people who actually give him any difficulty are the scavengers and that's one fight out of how many in the movie?

----------


## Carabas

> Whedon was brought during post production. Editing the film. Reshoots. Added tiny bits to an already scripted and shot film. Removed parts as well. There is a version of the film Snyder envisioned.


No, you are mistaken.
Whedon did all that, too, but he also finished the movie that  Snyder had abandoned.

----------


## tako

> No, you are mistaken.
> Whedon did all that, too, but he also finished the movie that  Snyder had abandoned.


no. he finished the film as in, finished editing, added his own touches, and did what WB asked him to do, yes. altered Snyder's original vision.

----------


## Carabas

> no. he finished the film as in, finished editing, added his own touches, and did what WB asked him to do, yes. altered Snyder's original vision.


Source required.

----------


## robreedwrites

Snyder did all the principal photography for Justice League from March 2016 to October 2016. After this point, Snyder brought on Whedon to write new scenes and rewrite old scenes for the planned reshoots, which were rumored to have been studio mandated to lighten the film's tone in the wake of bad critical reception towards BvS and SS. Around March 2017, Snyder left production due to his family tragedy and Whedon was hired by WB to do the reshoots. How much was reshot/shot without Snyder's input remains highly speculative.

----------


## Korath

I just saw the film. It's an excellent movie, all the main characters are great, Steppenwolf is a relatively good villain (in that he is rather interesting, especially for his backstory). Overall, I think it'll do great at the box office and ensure more D.C.'s movies of quality.

----------


## Pinsir

Considering MoS is still one of my favourite CBM and has a score of 55%, I think JL getting 50% is good.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Thomas Crown

For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts about "Justice League" in other thread. And, after watching this movie, I have absolutely no doubt that there is a clear critic bias against DC movies and Zack Snyder. And if anyone is planning to reply to me with some condescending "there is no bias" rant, PLEASE, DON'T!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> There's simply no excuse for going Fourth World and not using Darkseid. It's the freaking Justice League. They need a real challenge. Not a c-list New Gods character. If you're going New Gods you don't go Steppenwolf, Kalibak, Desaad, Kanto, Granny Goodness or anyone else but DARKSEID.
> 
> I was very clear that I LOVED this movie and I gave it the highest rating in the poll but as worried friends have asked me, "What about the villain?" (Or CG. Or plot/story/narrative) I found myself answering in the negative. And whenever they asked me those questions I had to say that all those things were actually quite bad or just forgettable but it was still my favorite superhero movie because of the characters, their interactions, and the incredible amount of fan service.
> 
> This is what I've been wanting from DC movies since at least Batman (1989) and it's the first time ever that we've gotten it. It made me so excited to see these characters again and I will see it on the big screen as often as possible.
> 
> Objectively, The Dark Knight is my favorite superhero movie but _subjectively_, accounting for the thing that was missing from all prior DC films, that fan service thing that makes you go, "I can't believe I'm seeing this nostalgic scene in such glorious live action" is there over and over and over and over again. And Affleck was right when he said the best parts hadn't been spoiled by trailers.
> 
> Pretty much every good part of BvS was spoiled by trailers but here they ran so many trailers for a 2 hour movie and still all the best surprises remained that: surprises.
> ...


You know, this makes me incredibly excited, even more than I already was, to see this film. When it comes to the DCEU, I have fundamentally disagreed with pretty much every post Ive ever seen from you...Im not saying this as a negative by the way, just to illustrate how far apart you and I have been on the DCEU spectrum. To see you rave about JL is inspiring, because there are so many who have not liked the DCEU thus far and will not be going into JL with an open mind like you did. And to see you say that you cant imagine loving another superhero film more?? Damn, man...it hits me in the feels. No sarcasm, it really does. Whedon finished it, but the majority of the skeleton here was Snyder & Terrio...knowing that they helped make a fan out of someone who was so disappointed before, well thats just f-ing awesome  :Smile:  

As for your negatives (I have not seen the film yet), if the CGI is spotty then I can live with it but Ill be disappointed because the CG in MoS & BvS were spectacular imo. As for Steppenwolf, I dont think hell bug me at all. Team-up movies like this just need someone to punch, and as long as they get the team right (as you say they have), then I think theyll have succeeded. In my opinion, the sequel is where we should always see a good villain with depth, because the team is already together & doesnt need to be set up. Thats why I enjoy Avengers 1 more than Ultron. I thought they dropped the ball on developing a good villain and just gave us more of the same. If JL2 fails to give us a good badguy, then Ill have beef with it. But Im probably okay with not much development here.* Im just really pumped you enjoyed the movie!

*My opinion could change after seeing it, of course

----------


## Nite-Wing

> For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts about "Justice League" in other thread. And, after watching this movie, I have absolutely no doubt that there is a clear critic bias against DC movies and Zack Snyder. And if anyone is planning to reply to me with some condescending "there is no bias" rant, PLEASE, DON'T!


but Wonder Woman got good reviews 
obviously the problems are there with these movies on some level

----------


## Buried Alien

I think Darkseid is being held in reserve for something later down the line.  If you're making a series of JUSTICE LEAGUE films, starting with Darkseid leaves you precious few options for upping the ante in later movies.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## byrd156

> Whedon was brought during post production. Editing the film. Reshoots. Added tiny bits to an already scripted and shot film. Removed parts as well. There is a version of the film Snyder envisioned.


Reshoots are planned in pre-production, which is what Synder worked on.

----------


## nightw1ng

Tracking suggests the domestic opening weekend box office will be around $110M, though I believe most DCEU films exceeded predictions.  The question is whether it can top Suicide Squad ($133M) or BvS ($166M).  I have a hard time believing it will come close to BvS. I remember when people were hoping for $200M+ Avengers numbers, but that seems like a distant memory now.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts about "Justice League" in other thread. And, after watching this movie, I have absolutely no doubt that there is a clear critic bias against DC movies and Zack Snyder. And if anyone is planning to reply to me with some condescending "there is no bias" rant, PLEASE, DON'T!


I just read your review in said other thread and it just makes me even more excited for Friday! I mean you were one of the people most worried and negative about the Joss reshoots in the run up to the release, so to see someone like you and someone like BatmanJones who have two most polar opposite opinions on the DCEU till now in regards to Snyder's movies both give this movie high marks...Man it does my heart good. 

So a general question to those who have seen it and liked it. Say JL becomes WB's first 1 billion grossing DCEU film and becomes a smash hit. WB decides to fast track JL2 and they want Snyder and Whedon to team up again. How would you feel if that would happen. Particularly those who loved this movie but intensely disliked MOS/BvS. Would you be willing for Zack Snyder to get another crack at with with Whedon pitching in as he did here in terms of story and dialogue?

----------


## Doctor Know

I'm set to watch the movie tomorrow at 6pm at my local theater. 

Critics lost their sway over me years ago.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Tracking suggests the domestic opening weekend box office will be around $110M, though I believe most DCEU films exceeded predictions.  The question is whether it can top Suicide Squad ($133M) or BvS ($166M).  I have a hard time believing it will come close to BvS. I remember when people were hoping for $200M+ Avengers numbers, but that seems like a distant memory now.


I'm not sure if even Avengers could get Avengers numbers in the current climate. Age of Ultron didn't quite hit the marks Avengers 1 did.

I think anything more than 120 million would be good. The important thing to look forward to is how it does overseas and how it drops off in it's second week and see if it has any legs. 

As long as it doesn't see the collosal drop off BvS did from week 1 to week 2, then JL may be fine.

I think as long as fan word of mouth is good , that, combined with the good will still there for Wonder Woman from this year and the trending consensus which is more MOS than BvS and SS in terms of critical reception, then it'll stick around awhile and rack up the coin.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> So a general question to those who have seen it and liked it. Say JL becomes WB's first 1 billion grossing DCEU film and becomes a smash hit. WB decides to fast track JL2 and they want Snyder and Whedon to team up again. How would you feel if that would happen. Particularly those who loved this movie but intensely disliked MOS/BvS. Would you be willing for Zack Snyder to get another crack at with with Whedon pitching in as he did here in terms of story and dialogue?


To be honest, I don't think that Zack's and Whedon's styles would mesh well. I had the impression that Whedon restrained his "Whedonisms" for the reshoots most of times, but still let it slip once in a while. I would be okay with Whedon pitching in some plot ideas, but a full Whedon script would be a big NO from me.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> To be honest, I don't think that Zack's and Whedon's styles would mesh well. I had the impression that Whedon restrained his "Whedonisms" for the reshoots most of times, but still let it slip once in a while. I would be okay with Whedon pitching in some plot ideas, but a full Whedon script would be a big NO from me.


That's what I meant. Zack's overall plot and visual style and action, with Whedon refining the plot and dialogue with Zack.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I'm not sure if even Avengers could get Avengers numbers in the current climate. Age of Ultron didn't quite hit the marks Avengers 1 did.
> 
> I think anything more than 120 million would be good. The important thing to look forward to is how it does overseas and how it drops off in it's second week and see if it has any legs. 
> 
> As long as it doesn't see the collosal drop off BvS did from week 1 to week 2, then JL may be fine.
> 
> I think as long as fan word of mouth is good , that, combined with the good will still there for Wonder Woman from this year and the trending consensus which is more MOS than BvS and SS in terms of critical reception, then it'll stick around awhile and rack up the coin.


Age of Ultron didn't do that much worse than Avengers which did 1.5 billion and AoU did 1.4. truth is I don't except JL to do original Avengers numbers because the set up was different. Audience members were looking forward to a 4 year old promise being delivered and seeing these characters which all except Hawkeye who only got a cameo we got to know in previous MCU films. We already saw the Trinity in BvS and the general audience barely knows these versions Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg so it's a vastly different scenario. No matter what I think it will be a success I just hope it's a success from executives POV.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I just read your review in said other thread and it just makes me even more excited for Friday! I mean you were one of the people most worried and negative about the Joss reshoots in the run up to the release, so to see someone like you and someone like BatmanJones who have two most polar opposite opinions on the DCEU till now in regards to Snyder's movies both give this movie high marks...Man it does my heart good. 
> 
> So a general question to those who have seen it and liked it. Say JL becomes WB's first 1 billion grossing DCEU film and becomes a smash hit. WB decides to fast track JL2 and they want Snyder and Whedon to team up again. How would you feel if that would happen. Particularly those who loved this movie but intensely disliked MOS/BvS. Would you be willing for Zack Snyder to get another crack at with with Whedon pitching in as he did here in terms of story and dialogue?


I'm hesitant to answer this but I feel it was somewhat directed toward me and others that enjoyed the film so I will. Despite my love for this film I don't think it's ever a good idea to have two directors. I base that largely on two things:

1. I work in theatre as playwright/director/artistic director of company I founded and have for 25 years and I know it is always a mistake for an actor in a play or a designer (sets, lights, costumes, etc) to hear from two different people. In theatre I think it's fine to have one person that does all the talking to everyone, one person whose vision the whole production/play is, and a second that assists and brings ideas but is clearly a "second." Snyder and Whedon are both too proven to be a "second" to the other. And a mixed vision generally means compromise and nobody wants a compromised vision.

2. My experience in theatre as related above, when it comes to two directors, has to be even more so in film because in theatre the writer is the auteur but in film the director is. In theatre, if the vision is diluted the script still holds the most power than the direction; in film it's the opposite.

What made this film great, to the extent that people agree it is, was the result of two directors and I don't think it would have been as great with only one or the other. But that was a perfect storm of MANY course corrections along the way. This movie's production history could probably fill a volume of books. I don't see them catching that same lightning in a bottle without the crucible of all that went into the decision to have two directors on this one. I think if one is planning ahead and the chosen director doesn't suffer so crippling a personal loss he has to step down, one would always prefer a single and singular visionary guiding the vision of any film or play.

Did it work this time? IMO, HELL YES.

Would it work if they planned it that way? I have to say I don't see that at all.

As for Snyder's continued influence/involvement, I'd be happy to see him take on a solo movie or a smaller team, but I'd really like to see a director that is very strong in areas of character and action (I'm thinking George Miller would be neat) and one that recognizes what worked so well in this film and makes it a core value to go deep with character interaction and relationships as that was what constituted the magic in the first JL movie. Snyder is strong at world-building, themes, action, being a singular visionary... His films are so clearly his films... But I wound up having a great time seeing Snyder's (and Whedon's) take and now I want to see another of the greatest filmmakers out there to get a crack. One that is really a fan or one that will enjoy a lot of influence from Geoff Johns who is as big a fan as there is and who is also very good with character IMO.

What I want most is a fast-tracked (not rushed but fast-tracked) JL 2. I'm concerned by the reviews but heartened by the opening week revenue projections.

I just hope like hell that WB/DC movie division can see the reviews as what they are: MIXED. So that they can see that there are things that clearly worked like gangbusters in this movie and will keep doing those things and going deeper with them. And that's character development and chemistry. 

So how do we get more of that? I would argue we do what I most fantasize about and expand the roster significantly, and include as many cameos as possible from characters that don't wind up joining. Because they are getting these characters SO RIGHT now I want to see so many more of them. And once you've seen what might happen in a JL 2 as result of one of the post-credits scenes, you'll be excited for a JL 2 and you'll see an in-story reason to expand membership.

And who doesn't want to see one of those classic membership drives?! Seeing the Trinity look at pictures and discuss various potential members has happened so many times in the comics (also in JSA, also in All-Star Squadron which I believe was the first to do the iconic photos strewn about the table thing) was what I most wanted to see in a post-credits scene. I wouldn't have mentioned that if it wound up happening. But how badly do I want to see a membership drive in the next one? BADLY. And how badly do I want to see them sit around that dang table? VERY BADLY.

If JL 2 has half the fan service of JL the first I will be in hog heaven almost no matter who's directing.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Age of Ultron didn't do that much worse than Avengers which did 1.5 billion and AoU did 1.4. truth is I don't except JL to do original Avengers numbers because the set up was different. Audience members were looking forward to a 4 year old promise being delivered and seeing these characters which all except Hawkeye who only got a cameo we got to know in previous MCU films. We already saw the Trinity in BvS and the general audience barely knows these versions Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg so it's a vastly different scenario. No matter what I think it will be a success I just hope it's a success from executives POV.


Age of Ultron didn't meet expectations with regards to not being as big as Avengers 1 and Iron Man 3 doing 1.3 billion. 

Idk what went wrong with Age of Ultron. Maybe the sameyness of the film got to people.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> That's what I meant. Zack's overall plot and visual style and action, with Whedon refining the plot and dialogue with Zack.


Not a fan of Whedon's dialogues. He tries TOO HARD to write "cool" and "edgy" dialogues and "funny" quips. Chris Terrio is miles better than him on this matter. I would feel more confident with Zack and Whedon coming up with the plot and Terrio (or someone else with the same competence) refining it.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> -His dad growing up in East Germany and passing down a natural skepticism of power & wariness of tyrants. In the dialogue.


I haven't rewatched that movie, but if so, they really did a horrible job of communicating that. That, and Superman isn't a tyrant. He's not even close to affiliated with the government or the establishment. So that doesn't make a lot of sense.




> -The government being reluctant to even create a deterrent for metahumans forcing him to bypass the red tape. In the script. 
> -Lex having secret knowledge that metahumans walk among us undiscovered. In the script.


These are *symptoms* of Lex's hatred of meta humans, not reasons for it. He doesn't like the government dragging its feet *because* he hates meta humans. He tracked down all those metas *because* he was already looking for them.




> -Lex's philosophical disagreement with human knowledge being rendered inept in the face of divine power. In the script.


Again, we know he has that philosophical disagreement. We don't know WHY he feels that way.




> -The "problem of evil" skepticism of Superman's pure intentions due to suffering child abuse. In the dialogue.


As I outlined in another post, that makes no sense. Him being abused by his very human father has no connection to his feelings toward an alien hero.




> Comic book Lex's agenda never gets any more fleshed out than this. It's a genius's ego combined with fervent an anti-alien skepticism. That's Lex. It's what we got.


In the Silver Age, it was established that Luthor hated Superman because he believed that Superman, as a teenager, had intentionally caused a laboratory accident that caused him to go bald and destroy all his discoveries.

In the 80s, Luthor, upon first meeting Superman tried to buy him off, but Superman refused and was then later deputized to arrest Luthor. That drove Luthor to vow revenge on him.

Later on, its established the Luthor hates Superman because the citizens of Metropolis admired Superman more than they admired him.

These are all clear establishments of a reason for comic book Lex hating Superman.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts about "Justice League" in other thread. And, after watching this movie, I have absolutely no doubt that there is a clear critic bias against DC movies and Zack Snyder. And if anyone is planning to reply to me with some condescending "there is no bias" rant, PLEASE, DON'T!


Yes, because that explains why Wonder Woman was showered with nothing but critical praise and even was more beloved than several Marvel movies.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Yes, because that explains why Wonder Woman was showered with nothing but critical praise and even was more beloved than several Marvel movies.


While I really like WONDER WOMAN and believe it's a solid film, I feel some of the critical praise to be a bit fulsome.  It's very, very good, but the praise elevates it to Second Coming level (it's not).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Jokerz79

> Age of Ultron didn't meet expectations with regards to not being as big as Avengers 1 and Iron Man 3 doing 1.3 billion. 
> 
> Idk what went wrong with Age of Ultron. Maybe the sameyness of the film got to people.


AoU didn't make as much as it's processor but it still did impressive numbers it crossed the billion dollar mark.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> While I really like WONDER WOMAN and believe it's a solid film, I feel some of the critical praise to be a bit fulsome.  It's very, very good, but the praise elevates it to Second Coming level (it's not).
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I'm not saying that it was. But the fact that Wonder Woman went over exceedingly well with critics is enough proof to put the "Holywood critics have it in for DC movies" conspiracies to rest for good. Critics aren't biased against DC movies. They're biased against bad movies.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

I guess the silver lining here is that Aquaman will probably be good because James Wan is directing that one.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I guess the silver lining here is that Aquaman will probably be good because James Wan is directing that one.


We said the same thing about SS and Ayer in the aftermath of BvS. Hopefully Johns can get AM to a similar spot as WW, but my hunch is the main problem is gross incompetence at the highest levels.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I'm not saying that it was a second coming of anything. But the fact that Wonder Woman went over exceedingly well with critics is enough proof to put the "Hollywood critics have it in for DC movies" conspiracies to rest for good. Critics aren't biased against DC movies. *They're biased against bad movies.*


No. They're just biased. We are reading their opinions afterall.

Below are a list of "good" movies, that most people consider to be bad or mediocre.


Alien Covenant and Prometheus 

Hunger Games Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2

Ghostbusters 2016

The Hobbit Trilogy

The Star Wars Prequels

Quantum of Solace and Spectre

Age of Ultron, Iron Man 2, Thor The Dark World, Spider-Man 3, Superman Returns

Indiana Jones And The Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull 

Mother!, Joy, Warm Bodies, 28 Weeks Later, Colossal, Tiny Furniture, Les Miserables



It really does seem like a popularity contest. I say that because most reviews prejudice JL against Avengers and the MCU. As if it's a one to one comparison that needs to be made. I guess it pays to be first. Marvel has the fans, just like Star Wars has the fans. While WB/DC and Star Trek (the films) are constantly playing catch up and being compared to their competitor.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I haven't rewatched that movie, but if so, they really did a horrible job of communicating that. That, and Superman isn't a tyrant. He's not even close to affiliated with the government or the establishment. So that doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> 
> 
> These are *symptoms* of Lex's hatred of meta humans, not reasons for it. He doesn't like the government dragging its feet *because* he hates meta humans. He tracked down all those metas *because* he was already looking for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, we know he has that philosophical disagreement. We don't know WHY he feels that way.
> ...


So you didn't hear that part of Lex's conversation with the Senator. A lot of us did. He has multiple lines about it. Superman has the potential to be a tyrant the second he decides to be and participated in the partial destruction of metropolis. He doesn't have the luxury of knowing Superman is a good guy. He's naturally skeptical of power because his father was forced to wave flags at tyrants in sham parades. If you missed that, it makes sense that you're further confused. 

The existence of metahumans, paired with the other factors mentioned, increases his paranoia. They're out there, they can't be trusted, and the government isn't doing enough (or anything) to prepare for the threat they cause. It drives him to act in a more extreme rogue way than originally planned.

Suffering child abuse has no relation to a natural distrust for authority and supposedly benevolent power? Even when the character states it? Why not?

A philosophical disagreement doesn't have to come from some marked event that makes it personal. None of the origins you mentioned are particularly memorable or considered an endemic part of the Superman-Luthor rivalry because it boils down to who Lex is as a person which isn't shaped by an easily explained event. He's a genius with an insane ego and a dislike/distrust for superheroes who take away humanity's (and his) ability to progress for themselves.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> No. They're just biased. We are reading their opinions afterall.
> 
> Below are a list of "good" movies, that most people consider to be bad or mediocre.
> 
> 
> Alien Covenant and Prometheus 
> 
> Hunger Games Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2
> 
> ...


For a good 70% of these movies, I've actually seen that they're mostly liked or even loved among the general audience. The "most people" you're referring to tend to be smaller communities of fans that lean a certain way as opposed to the general audience itself. In the example of Ghost Busters, the only people that didn't like it were those who were opposed to it from the start because it was an all-female cast.

At least some of the movies you listed have even gotten the attention of major awards. Les Mis was nominated for several Academy Awards and even won a few for goodness sake.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> While I really like WONDER WOMAN and believe it's a solid film, I feel some of the critical praise to be a bit fulsome.  It's very, very good, but the praise elevates it to Second Coming level (it's not).
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I agree. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that she was free from pre-conceived notions of what the character had to be. Nobody had ever seen her mythological origin before on the big screen. Nobody saw her portrayed so iconically positive that almost crushing a defenseless human villain with a tank out of revenge, or witnessing a bunch of war amputees, would upset them. Plus, there were jokes, and it was linear.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> So you didn't hear that part of Lex's conversation with the Senator. A lot of us did. He has multiple lines about it. Superman has the potential to be a tyrant the second he decides to be and participated in the partial destruction of metropolis. He doesn't have the luxury of knowing Superman is a good guy. He's naturally skeptical of power because his father was forced to wave flags at tyrants in sham parades. If you missed that, it makes sense that you're further confused.


A two-second throwaway line does not a fully fleshed out character make.




> The existence of metahumans, paired with the other factors mentioned, increases his paranoia. They're out there, they can't be trusted, and the government isn't doing enough (or anything) to prepare for the threat they cause. It drives him to act in a more extreme rogue way than originally planned.


And yet we don't see how he tracked them down, when he did so, how he could have possibly known they'd be out there, or even his initial reaction to finding out their existence. Again, this movie leaves the audience grasping for a lot.




> Suffering child abuse has no relation to a natural distrust for authority and supposedly benevolent power? Even when the character states it? Why not?


If his father was abusive, then he wasn't all that benevolent, was he. And again, all the film does is throw in a two-second line with nothing else to even suggest that Luthor is projecting his feelings about his father onto Superman. And what's more is that the line itself makes it seem more like Luthor blames the fact of his abuse on others, and not oh I dont know, the guy who actually abused him. So, again, the movie leaves this incredibly vague with pretty much no clarification or flushing out of Luthor's motives. That is not a well-written character. There's a reason Luthor is one of the more disliked parts of the movie.




> A philosophical disagreement doesn't have to come from some marked event that makes it personal. None of the origins you mentioned are particularly memorable or considered an endemic part of the Superman-Luthor rivalry because it boils down to who Lex is as a person which isn't shaped by an easily explained event. He's a genius with an insane ego and a dislike/distrust for superheroes who take away humanity's (and his) ability to progress for themselves.


You said that we never have anything more than simple xenophobia and ego as an explanation of comic book Luthor's motivations. I gave you three examples of why that's not true. Regardless of whether you like them or not, those origins serve as vehicles to explain and showcase Luthor's hatred and xenophobia, so that he's not just a one-note character who hates for no reason.

Look, I understand. I was disappointed in the critical reaction to BvS too. I wanted it to be good. I wanted all the critics to love it. But the fact that they didn't doesn't mean that they're biased or that they don't have taste or that it went over their heads. It didn't. They just didn't like it, because they just didn't like it. And, unfortunately, they weren't the only ones.

----------


## Doctor Know

> For a good 70% of these movies, I've actually seen that they're mostly liked or even loved among the general audience. The "most people" you're referring to tend to be smaller communities of fans that lean a certain way as opposed to the general audience itself. In the example of Ghost Busters, the only people that didn't like it were those who were opposed to it from the start because it was an all-female cast.
> 
> At least some of the movies you listed have even gotten the attention of major awards. Les Mis was nominated for several Academy Awards and even won a few for goodness sake.


Most of them have critical faults built into them.The execution of the story, the editing, directorial choices that back fired (live singing, cast ad-libbing the entire movie), CGI overload/video game you can't play, buffoonery (Indy 4, the tonal shifts of the Hobbit and Emo Spidey and his dance), directors milking the shortest books to make elongated stories and filling the films with nothing,  etc.


How some of them managed a fresh and certified fresh (Indy 4, GB 2016, Prometheus, Age of Ultron, 28 Weeks, Superman Returns) is mind boggling. I say this to challenge the notion that there is an exacting science to reviewing a film and judging it to be good or bad. It's just what the person and persons viewing the film professionally, enjoy.

----------


## Sacred Knight

You know, I know Erza Miller's depiction of Barry Allen is radically unlike anything we've seen from the character before.  But from what I've seen his performance is such that I honestly am getting close to saying it SHOULD become his norm, comics and everywhere else (outside the already existing series).

----------


## Frontier

> You know, I know Erza Miller's depiction of Barry Allen is radically unlike anything we've seen from the character before.  But from what I've seen his performance is such that I honestly am getting close to saying it SHOULD become his norm, comics and everywhere else (outside the already existing series).


I dunno, I think Miller's Flash will probably be fun but I don't need him to be this young and spastic kid with super-speed in other incarnations unless he's Kid Flash. 

But then again I prefer a seasoned, adult, Flash.

----------


## Bossace

Ben joking about sexual assault in that interview is so uncomfortable uncalled for and awkward. The other cast members just look totally taken back that he said that.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/16/j...oke-gal-gadot/

----------


## Lightning Rider

> A two-second throwaway line does not a fully fleshed out character make.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet we don't see how he tracked them down, when he did so, how he could have possibly known they'd be out there, or even his initial reaction to finding out their existence. Again, this movie leaves the audience grasping for a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> If his father was abusive, then he wasn't all that benevolent, was he. And again, all the film does is throw in a two-second line with nothing else to even suggest that Luthor is projecting his feelings about his father onto Superman. And what's more is that the line itself makes it seem more like Luthor blames the fact of his abuse on others, and not oh I dont know, the guy who actually abused him. So, again, the movie leaves this incredibly vague with pretty much no clarification or flushing out of Luthor's motives. That is not a well-written character. There's a reason Luthor is one of the more disliked parts of the movie.
> ...


Several lines which accentuate others in the film can give someone a valid motivation. 

Not sure why his methods for tracking them down have anything to do with his motivations.

His motivations could have used more time, but they're not really unclear. They're scattered throughout the film and yes, you have to construct them, but if you're not paying attention and miss entire conversations in the dialogue, then you're not going to walk away with a complete picture, and that's on you.

It's also not the reason he was disliked, people didn't like Eisenberg's annoying twitchiness and wanted a masculine STAS type of Lex.

I don't need to retread the point of your origin examples because they're unimportant in understanding Lex as a character in the comics. Those origins aren't revisited nor emphasized because Lex is who he is largely independent of Superman and projects his ideologies onto him.

There are reviews that explicitly reveal biases in terms of tone and pre-conceived notions about appropriate character choices. When I'm talking about those, I'm being particular. The movies had problems, sure, but critics carry their own biases into movies and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out. But, most important of all in our exchange, the movies are not incoherent so long as you don't somehow miss entire lines of dialogue establishing motive and the like.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> You know, I know Erza Miller's depiction of Barry Allen is radically unlike anything we've seen from the character before.  But from what I've seen his performance is such that I honestly am getting close to saying it SHOULD become his norm, comics and everywhere else (outside the already existing series).


I wouldn't say it's radically unlike, from what I've seen. He has the awkward nerd part down and the fanboy part down, but it's just interpreted in a very youthful way. I'm tired of the "Flash as comic relief" trope so while I can tolerate it in the film I don't want it to become the standard. Barry was always a stiff and Wally was sarcastic in his wit, not goofy. The Timmverse made a whole generation of people think Flash was a clown.

----------


## Frontier

> Ben joking about sexual assault in that interview is so uncomfortable uncalled for and awkward. The other cast members just look totally taken back that he said that.
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/16/j...oke-gal-gadot/


Dang it Ben...

I'm going to be really surprised if we get much more with him as Batman after this.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Dang it Ben...
> 
> I'm going to be really surprised if we get much more with him as Batman after this.


lmao what the hell Ben. Poorly form. But not so terrible that it will go viral I'm thinking.

At least the fan reactions in that video are great. Even on Batfleck himself. "Give me Ben Affleck, or give me death."

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Several lines which accentuate others in the film can give someone a valid motivation.


That's the thing, its not *several* lines or even whole dialogues. Its one or two lines that really shed light on why Lex is the way he is.




> Not sure why his methods for tracking them down have anything to do with his motivations.


Its just the general lack of information surrounding all of that. Lex just *happens* to have secret dossier files about all these characters that end up forming the JL. How convenient. Its comes across as exactly what it is: a device to rush into the JL movie.




> His motivations could have used more time, but they're not really unclear. They're scattered throughout the film and yes, you have to construct them, but if you're not paying attention and miss entire conversations in the dialogue, then you're not going to walk away with a complete picture, and that's on you.


No, its not on the audience. Filmmakers have one job: to tell a story. If they can't do that clearly (and make no mistake, BvS is anything but clear) or concisely or in a way that makes sense to the audience, then they've failed to do their job




> It's also not the reason he was disliked, people didn't like Eisenberg's annoying twitchiness and wanted a masculine STAS type of Lex.


They just didn't like Luthor generally as a character. There were many reasons why. Eisenberg did the best with what he was given.




> I don't need to retread the point of your origin examples because they're unimportant in understanding Lex as a character in the comics. Those origins aren't revisited nor emphasized because Lex is who he is largely independent of Superman and projects his ideologies onto him.


They kinda are. A lot of the time, his humble beginnings are used as a way to bolster his reputation as a "self-made man," which only exacerbates why he hates Superman (a guy who was born with it all).




> There are reviews that explicitly reveal biases in terms of tone and pre-conceived notions about appropriate character choices. When I'm talking about those, I'm being particular. The movies had problems, sure, but critics carry their own biases into movies and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out. But, most important of all in our exchange, the movies are not incoherent so long as you don't somehow miss entire lines of dialogue establishing motive and the like.


The only bias I've seen in reviews is a bias for movies that effectively communicate their themes and developments. The reason critics use Marvel as an example is because Marvel has been able to do that for the majority of their films. Plus, the whole Marvel bias theory falls apart when we also take into account that several Marvel TV programs have been slammed with bad reviews as well.

And, lastly, when a movie is to the point where someone watching it can get lost so easily, by missing one word or one line of dialogue, then that means the movie is not coherent. It means that its anything but.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> That's the thing, its not *several* lines or even whole dialogues. Its one or two lines that really shed light on why Lex is the way he is.
> 
> 
> 
> Its just the general lack of information surrounding all of that. Lex just *happens* to have secret dossier files about all these characters that end up forming the JL. How convenient. Its comes across as exactly what it is: a device to rush into the JL movie.
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not on the audience. Filmmakers have one job: to tell a story. If they can't do that clearly (and make no mistake, BvS is anything but clear) or concisely or in a way that makes sense to the audience, then they've failed to do their job
> ...


It's about 3 lines, that's several. 

The audience does not need to be spoonfed Lex's espionage adventures. 

If you outright can't hear several lines of dialogue, the filmmaker can't do much more there. It's on you.

Lex's persona is not defined by the numerous origins you mentioned. They're not revisited or held as important events because his persona comes from a broader set of circumstances that don't depend on singular events. Lex's "origin story" isn't tied as concretely as most. 

I've already posted a concrete list of reviewers who explicitly state that certain tones are appropriate for the genre, and completely gloss over flaws in Marvel films that exist in DC films. Thor and Ant-Man's generic arcs and the urban destruction in Avengers and Iron Man 3's completely awful handling of the villain, the bathos that infects all of it, it's all forgiven because "fun!" Batman and Logan can be dark but god forbid Superman doesn't change in a phone-booth or isn't "hokey". Those are literal quotes from reviews I find distort the critic's fair analysis of the film.

Who knows what else you missed in that movie? There's almost nothing at all difficult to follow in the film unless you're not paying attention. A viewer not being able to figure out why Superman and Batman are fighting is frankly stupid or not paying attention.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I just cant take the opinions of someone who says the only people who didnt like Ghostbusters are the ones who were opposed to it from the start because of an all female cast seriously. 

Maybe people didnt like it because it wasnt funny? 

The message Im getting here is critics were biased against Ghostbusters, but not biased against DC in any way, shape, or form. Makes sense, especially since critics arent biased, right?  :Smile:

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I just can’t take the opinions of someone who says “the only people who didn’t like Ghostbusters are the ones who were opposed to it from the start because of an all female cast” seriously. 
> 
> Maybe people didn’t like it because it wasn’t funny? 
> 
> The message I’m getting here is “critics were biased against Ghostbusters”, but “not biased against DC in any way, shape, or form. Makes sense, especially since critics “aren’t biased”, right?


Except critics weren't biased against Ghostbusters. It actually got good reviews.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Sooooo......that whole issue with the Amazons wearing skimpy outfits in Justice League? Turns out THAT, and several other instances of Diana being overly sexualized, was actually the work of none other than Mr. Joss "I'm Such A Great Feminist" Whedon! 




Now, sure, I'm sure Snyder did some sexualizing, but this is just appalling! I kinda hope WB reconsiders letting Whedon do the Batgirl movie now.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's about 3 lines, that's several.


That take up about 30 seconds of a film that's well over two hours.




> The audience does not need to be spoonfed Lex's espionage adventures.


Yes, because providing any sort of basic insight is the equivalent of spoon-feeding.




> If you outright can't hear several lines of dialogue, the filmmaker can't do much more there. It's on you.


When they're barely noticeable and buried from jumping from scene to scene? Nah. That's not on me. That's on the filmmaker.




> Lex's persona is not defined by the numerous origins you mentioned. They're not revisited or held as important events because his persona comes from a broader set of circumstances that don't depend on singular events. Lex's "origin story" isn't tied as concretely as most.


Except Lex's backstory, namely the fact of him being from Smallville as well, has been referenced numerous times as something that sort of "binds" him and Superman together, both in current continuity and in Pre-Crisis canon.




> I've already posted a concrete list of reviewers who explicitly state that certain tones are appropriate for the genre, and completely gloss over flaws in Marvel films that exist in DC films. Thor and Ant-Man's generic arcs and the urban destruction in Avengers and Iron Man 3's completely awful handling of the villain, the bathos that infects all of it, it's all forgiven because "fun!" Batman and Logan can be dark but god forbid Superman doesn't change in a phone-booth or isn't "hokey". Those are literal quotes from reviews I find distort the critic's fair analysis of the film.


Nobody is saying MCU films are perfect. In most of those cases, however, there were other elements of the film that compensated for their faults. Yes, Iron Man 3's villain was awful and there were major plot holes. I am one of its most vocal critics. But, overall, it was still a better viewing experience than BvS. And you may think Thor and Ant-Man's arcs are generic, but at least they succeed at telling an arc. They don't simply come off as a random collection of moments strung together haphazardly.




> Who knows what else you missed in that movie? There's almost nothing at all difficult to follow in the film unless you're not paying attention. A viewer not being able to figure out why Superman and Batman are fighting is frankly stupid or not paying attention.


I mean, are we really at the point of calling people stupid for not liking a movie? And I don't think its that they factually couldn't decipher the reasons that Snyder put forth. Its more so, they thought the reasons for initiating the conflict between Batman and Superman were rushed, thin justifications and the central conflict of the film therefore felt unearned.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Sooooo......that whole issue with the Amazons wearing skimpy outfits in Justice League? Turns out THAT, and several other instances of Diana being overly sexualized, was actually the work of none other than Mr. Joss "I'm Such A Great Feminist" Whedon! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, sure, I'm sure Snyder did some sexualizing, but this is just appalling! I kinda hope WB reconsiders letting Whedon do the Batgirl movie now.


It’s appalling that Snyder treats women this way! It’s sickening! What a pig! 

Oh, wait....
A83771BE-82BF-4ABC-B20C-65C1F7EE18A4.jpg

----------


## Clark_Kent

> That take up about 30 seconds of a film that's well over two hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because providing any sort of basic insight is the equivalent of spoon-feeding.
> 
> 
> 
> When they're barely noticeable and buried from jumping from scene to scene? Nah. That's not on me. That's on the filmmaker.
> ...


Are we really at the point of calling people sexist for not liking Ghostbusters? Cause, that’s what you did earlier. 

Maybe everyone should agree to disagree & move on?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It’s appalling that Snyder treats women this way! It’s sickening! What a pig! 
> 
> Oh, wait....
> Attachment 57874


Yup. I've never had a problem with how he does this stuff because he's pretty much an equal-opportunity sexualizer. Heck, I like some sexualization in my movies! 

But yeah, if people are going to complain about it, then I want them to know precisely where the blame belongs.

----------


## Frontier

> Sooooo......that whole issue with the Amazons wearing skimpy outfits in Justice League? Turns out THAT, and several other instances of Diana being overly sexualized, was actually the work of none other than Mr. Joss "I'm Such A Great Feminist" Whedon! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, sure, I'm sure Snyder did some sexualizing, but this is just appalling! I kinda hope WB reconsiders letting Whedon do the Batgirl movie now.


Huh...I guess that means more of the Amazon stuff came together when Joss joined production?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yup. I've never had a problem with how he does this stuff because he's pretty much an equal-opportunity sexualizer. Heck, I like some sexualization in my movies! 
> 
> But yeah, if people are going to complain about it, then I want them to know precisely where the blame belongs.


I agree. Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy lol

----------


## Bossace

ouch rotten tomatoes came revealed the score 43%, was hoping for at least 50%, hopefully this doesn't deter some of the general public. Maybe theres still time for it to go up?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> ouch rotten tomatoes came revealed the score 43%, was hoping for at least 50%, hopefully this doesn't deter some of the general public. Maybe theres still time for it to go up?


Snyder, no matter how many defenders he has, is the common denominator with MOS, BvS and now JL. Shame on WB for letting it get to a third film.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> That take up about 30 seconds of a film that's well over two hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because providing any sort of basic insight is the equivalent of spoon-feeding.
> 
> 
> 
> When they're barely noticeable and buried from jumping from scene to scene? Nah. That's not on me. That's on the filmmaker.
> ...


I seriously don't have the stamina to debate how well motivations are laid out in a film with someone who apparently couldn't hear key lines in a movie and missed who knows what else and has only watched it once. 

I'm not calling people stupid for not liking a movie, I'm calling them stupid for not being able to grasp something they're beat over the head with. A reviewer saying he couldn't figure out why they were fighting is either lying, fell asleep, or genuinely has problems with their perception. 

If you think Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man are better than BvS, like many of the critics, I can't control your opinion and your entitled to dislike it. But I'm not going to pretend I don't think choppy pacing or editing in a thematically rich film should be held to a different standard to mediocre uninspiring action-comedies just because they're told in a straight-forward order and have jokes in them. And there are reviewers who specifically reveal those biases in their reviews.

----------


## RudHao

The Double Toasted guys like it at least

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=77WwPjInwmM

----------


## Confuzzled

> Huh...I guess that means more of the Amazon stuff came together when Joss joined production?


Not the Amazon attire (which as folks have mentioned here, is traditional Snyder and it is not a women-only thing as seen in 300 etc.) Without getting too spoiler-y, apparently there are some scenes that oversexualize Diana herself, which some folks on Twitter pointed out fit Whedon's MO from past work like Age of Ultron and his own leaked Wonder Woman script. So this video seems to be a confirmation that Whedon was indeed responsible for it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Snyder, no matter how many defenders he has, is the common denominator with MOS, BvS and now JL. Shame on WB for letting it get to a third film.


Ummm....I believe you'll find that studio interference was ALSO  a common denominator.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Ummm....I believe you'll find that studio interference was ALSO  a common denominator.


How do you know that studio interference didn't salvage whatever that remained of Snyder's films? so far people have liked the character dynamics and hated the villains while being lukeworm to the plot. We know for a fact that credit for the former goes to Whedon while the latter is all Snyder. Snyder's incompetence necessitates studio interference. The real blunder committed by WB was bringing Snyder back for BVS and then JL.

I feel like crying.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

Just watched it. It's very fun and moves like a freight train to the finish line.

If Wonder Woman & The Avengers had baby delivered with the same visual style as Man of Steel & BvS, you'd have Justice League.

It is very much a Frankenstein monster of two very different filmmakers, but it sorta works if you squint a bit at the lack of connective tissue that's missing to keep that 2 hour running time.

What works more than outwieghs what doesn't, the trinity is all given a good showing. Affleck, Gadot & Cavill are very effective. It's a shame Superman isn't given enough time with them to develop any kind of rapport with them, for instance, Superman & WW _still_ don't have any kind of relationship. Again, time constraints probably nixed this, because the bits he has with Lois & Ma Kent, in addition to his scenes with Bruce & Barry are nicely crafted.

The Flash & Aquaman are both very well served. They both get just enough development that we want to see more from them. Cyborg is just sort of there because the plot requires him to be. If you are a big Cyborg fan, maybe you'll dig this, but he's the least fun and interesting of the bunch. There's no way he's getting a solo film out of this.

Steppenwolf is a CGI baddie...and all that entails. He's not really there to be much more than a threat that brings the League together. He's serviceable, but a flesh and blood actor could have brought more to the table here.

If I had to rank them, Wonder Woman is still the gold standard, with Justice League, Man of Steel, the Director's cut of BvS, then Suicide Squad and the theatrical cut of BvS (both of which barely function as movies) 

If you don't go in expecting a masterpeice, it's a very fun time. Lots of laughs and eye candy. Fun group dynamics. Cool action. I can't imagine too many people being put off by this movie, except for the most vocal BvS diehards who like their superheroes grim, dark and tortured. This is most decidely NOT that.

----------


## Bossace

oh Joss...

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...illain-a155399

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> oh Joss...
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...illain-a155399


Well damn...Maybe he should've wrote in some scenes for Steppenwolf, rather than the sexual quips...

----------


## Naked Bat

I've been among the "I love what the DCEU has given to us" crowd since Zack made MOS. Even though I recognize SS is not a good movie, I still have fun watching it. And I love BvS. It's one of my favourite CBM. While I really loved WW, BvS is more to my liking.

Not that the introduction is done: Justice League? I dig it!

I was afraid it would feel like a MCU movie, and MCU movies are not my cup of tea, even though I like several of them. But it never feels that way. The tone is very similar to WW's tone. The stakes feel real, the movie takes itself seriously, but there are several lighter moments, humor that comes from the situation and doesn't feel out ot place and some scenes even manage to be moving (looking at you Henry Allen).

The cast is incredible. Ezra is the Flash. He brings so much genuinge humor and emotion. It's the first movie I see him in (I'm not counting BvS and SS since he's in it for 10 seconds) and he was amazing. I really liked Ray Fisher as well. Momoa was great and he was way more than just Aquabro. You can feel how his story is interesting even though the movie doesn't spend a lot of time with him.

The trinity was incredible. We already knew Gal and Ben were born to play their role, but this time, even Cavill gets his due. Not that I think he wasn't great before (because he was), but I think this time he will win the audience's heart for good. He really feels like the classic Superman. You could say he's the rebirth superman in a way. He was in it an adaquate time, but I'm sure most people will want to see more of him. He speaks a damn lot this time around too. His return scene was amazing and even kinda frightening.

Speaking of which, the action scene a, once again, really creative and different from what you see in other CBM. There are a lot of action but most of the fights are not that long. Even the climax is not very long. But every action scene offers a great hero moment. I think WW's introduction is one of the best showing she ever had. The history lesson, while short, is as legendary as you may think. There is also a very creative chase involving a mother box that was breathtaking. 

The story was simple, but effective and allowed every hero to have his moment. Their interactions were really good and in line with what you would read in a good comic book. It definitely feels like the Grant Morrison JLA in the sense that every hero has a chance to shine and every single one is well written.

Steppenwolf was a really intimidating villain with a great presence. He was a legitimate threat to the world and to the team. 

Zack is a great visual director and it shows: some shots are simply glorious. It's a beautiful movie to look at. It really feels like a sequel to both MOS and BvS in that regard.

Elfman was the only disappointment to me. I mean, his score is effective and works in the context of the movie, but it's totally forgettable and I can't forgive him for not using MOS theme or what are you going to do when you're not saving the world.

I prefer BvS, because it was such an ambitious, interesting and different movie, but I really loved Justice LEague. It made me want to watch again the other movies and the next ones.

----------


## Naked Bat

> That's the thing, its not *several* lines or even whole dialogues. Its one or two lines that really shed light on why Lex is the way he is.
> 
> 
> 
> Its just the general lack of information surrounding all of that. Lex just *happens* to have secret dossier files about all these characters that end up forming the JL. How convenient. Its comes across as exactly what it is: a device to rush into the JL movie.
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not on the audience. Filmmakers have one job: to tell a story. If they can't do that clearly (and make no mistake, BvS is anything but clear) or concisely or in a way that makes sense to the audience, then they've failed to do their job
> ...


BvS is anything but clear? I guess it wasn't if you really wanted to not understand it. My wife is by no mean a comic book reader and she had no trouble at all understanding Lex motivation or plan. My dad is in the same boat and he understood the movie very well. Actually, most people I've talked with about Bvs understood it. 

If you get lost so easily, like you put it, it may not be the movie's fault.

----------


## Naked Bat

> For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts about "Justice League" in other thread. And, after watching this movie, I have absolutely no doubt that there is a clear critic bias against DC movies and Zack Snyder. And if anyone is planning to reply to me with some condescending "there is no bias" rant, PLEASE, DON'T!


Do you know the oldest lie on CBR? It's that there can be a zack Snyder movie with a fresh rotten tomatoes score.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> How do you know that studio interference didn't salvage whatever that remained of Snyder's films? so far people have liked the character dynamics and hated the villains while being lukeworm to the plot. We know for a fact that credit for the former goes to Whedon while the latter is all Snyder. Snyder's incompetence necessitates studio interference. The real blunder committed by WB was bringing Snyder back for BVS and then JL.
> 
> I feel like crying.


And how do you know that? Synder shot principal dude all the character dynamics where all there, people who went on the set visit last year even said so. Don't know where you're getting the idea that, that is all down to Whedon other than your obvious bias to Snyder. 

And you feel like crying over a fictional movie? Yeash dude.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Do you know the oldest lie on CBR? It's that there can be a zack Snyder movie with a fresh rotten tomatoes score.


lmao well done

----------


## Naked Bat

> I just read your review in said other thread and it just makes me even more excited for Friday! I mean you were one of the people most worried and negative about the Joss reshoots in the run up to the release, so to see someone like you and someone like BatmanJones who have two most polar opposite opinions on the DCEU till now in regards to Snyder's movies both give this movie high marks...Man it does my heart good. 
> 
> So a general question to those who have seen it and liked it. Say JL becomes WB's first 1 billion grossing DCEU film and becomes a smash hit. WB decides to fast track JL2 and they want Snyder and Whedon to team up again. How would you feel if that would happen. Particularly those who loved this movie but intensely disliked MOS/BvS. Would you be willing for Zack Snyder to get another crack at with with Whedon pitching in as he did here in terms of story and dialogue?


I want Zack back. But I'm not sure it's a good idea, since there are so many people who want his blood.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

> I want Zack back. But I'm not sure it's a good idea, since there are so many people who want his blood.


I think Zack Snyder semi-sucessfully said all he needed to say about these characters. For all their many, many faults, MoS, BvS & JL all form a trilogy with a very clear story arc about the importance of hope in an increasingly cynical and mistrusting world. When all the dust settles, I think Snyder's work on the DCEU will be looked at as a very big swing for the fences that didn't quite make it out of the ballpark, but certainly filled up the bases for a pretty exciting future.

Henry Cavill, Gal Gadot, Ezra Miller & Jason Momoa are all great casting choices, which is half the battle a lot of time.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That's the thing, its not *several* lines or even whole dialogues. Its one or two lines that really shed light on why Lex is the way he is.
> 
> 
> 
> Its just the general lack of information surrounding all of that. Lex just *happens* to have secret dossier files about all these characters that end up forming the JL. How convenient. Its comes across as exactly what it is: a device to rush into the JL movie.
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not on the audience. Filmmakers have one job: to tell a story. If they can't do that clearly (and make no mistake, BvS is anything but clear) or concisely or in a way that makes sense to the audience, then they've failed to do their job
> ...


I can get not liking the direction of the movie, but the UE is quite easy to follow. You didn't get what was going on because either you didn't want to, or you just can't follow movies with multiple moving parts.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I want Zack back. But I'm not sure it's a good idea, since there are so many people who want his blood.


If he does come back, he needs to side stuff. That Lobo movie would be great for him.

----------


## Carabas

> Sooooo......that whole issue with the Amazons wearing skimpy outfits in Justice League? Turns out THAT, and several other instances of Diana being overly sexualized, was actually the work of none other than Mr. Joss "I'm Such A Great Feminist" Whedon!.


I'm not seeing how Whedon could have had an influence on costume design if he only came inwhen the movie was almost finished.

----------


## Barbatos666

> And how do you know that? Synder shot principal dude all the character dynamics where all there, people who went on the set visit last year even said so. Don't know where you're getting the idea that, that is all down to Whedon other than your obvious bias to Snyder. 
> 
> And you feel like crying over a fictional movie? Yeash dude.


Based on their past work? Their signature style?  The previous reception to their work. Please get off the Snyder bandwagon and I dont even care for Whedon or his Avengers.

The first ever JL movie should have been an event, now its whatever it is so yeah I wanna cry cause I actually love these characters.

----------


## Barbatos666

> I'm not seeing how Whedon could have had an influence on costume design if he only came inwhen the movie was almost finished.


Its Goyer's fault, its Nolan's fault, its Whedon's fault, its WB's fault. Dont you dare blame Snyder ge's master film maker who suffered a tragic loss so shush no criticism for this man.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Based on their past work? Their signature style?  The previous reception to their work. Please get off the Snyder bandwagon and I dont even care for Whedon or his Avengers.
> 
> The first ever JL movie should have been an event, now its whatever it is so yeah I wanna cry cause I actually love these characters.


It's still a huge movie. It's Justice League.

----------


## Confuzzled

Amazon attire is obviously Snyder but as I said before, he likes to focus on ripped bodies be they men or women, and women sporting badass pacs doesn't scream sexualization to me as usually traditional media doesn't like to focus on women with musculature but then that's just me (though working in advertising, I do know a thing or two about the catering to the male gaze in media).

Whedon apparently is responsible for Diana's treatment in the film but having not watched it yet, I'll wait until further comment.

----------


## Jabare

WB ruins their own movies by making all these crazy cuts. The film cuts out over 40 minutes and some pretty damn awesome scenes

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Do you know the oldest lie on CBR? It's that there can be a zack Snyder movie with a fresh rotten tomatoes score.


My good sir... You win.

----------


## Black_Adam

> For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts about "Justice League" in other thread. And, after watching this movie, I have absolutely no doubt that there is a clear critic bias against DC movies and Zack Snyder. And if anyone is planning to reply to me with some condescending "there is no bias" rant, PLEASE, DON'T!


Is there a clear bias against the DCEU no, but there is no doubt in my mind that certain "internet bloggers" have a clear and irrational hatred of Snyder that goes way beyond simply critiquing his movies. You can't tell me people like Donna Dickens, Joanna Robinson and Nick Mundy have displayed any sort of professionalism when it comes to Snyder, Robinson even admitted she pre-judges all his movies. And the jokes about his daughter, the internet is a cruel place. It's funny you can be a s**thead in real life like Woody Allen or Roman Polanski and people will mostly turn the a blind eye but be a nice guy (by all accounts Zack is one of the best directors to work with) and "ruin" Superman or Batman and your a terrible human being.

Also Joss liking tweets trashing the movie is not a good look, incredibly unprofessional if you ask me.

----------


## Username taken

> I'm not seeing how Whedon could have had an influence on costume design if he only came inwhen the movie was almost finished.


Exactly.

It's very confusing when you consider there were already teasers showing the amazons before Joss Whedon came in.

----------


## manofsteel1979

Whedon's liking critical tweets of the movie reeks of him being the class suck up obnoxiously raising his hand going " oh! Pick meeee for JL 2!" to the Warner's brass. He's implying that he wouldn't make the same mistakes Snyder would make in regards to a weak cgi villain. 


Ultron says hi.

So... Assuming JL does well and a sequel is greenlighted, and Zack decides to step away...Patty Jenkins perhaps? Because I'm pretty sure I don't want Whedon within 100 yards of the script of the next one. Between this and the Grace Randolph video...Yep, off the Whedon train. Wasn't really on it anyway.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Snyder & Whedon both need to be sent packing at this point.

----------


## yohyoi

Lego Batman > Justice League. Think about that! Hail our buildable toy overlords!

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Whedon's liking critical tweets of the movie reeks of him being the class suck up obnoxiously raising his hand going " oh! Pick meeee for JL 2!" to the Warner's brass. He's implying that he wouldn't make the same mistakes Snyder would make in regards to a weak cgi villain. 
> 
> 
> Ultron says hi.
> 
> So... Assuming JL does well and a sequel is greenlighted, and Zack decides to step away...Patty Jenkins perhaps? Because I'm pretty sure I don't want Whedon within 100 yards of the script of the next one. Between this and the Grace Randolph video...Yep, off the Whedon train. Wasn't really on it anyway.


I'd be fine with Jenkins on the whole thing.




> Lego Batman > Justice League. Think about that! Hail our buildable toy overlords!


Jokey kid's film is as popular as Logan and Wonder Woman and more-so than Batman Begins? Says it all really.

----------


## yohyoi

At least BvS prepared us for this event. I was already drunk before I saw the score! Thanks BvS!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> How do you know that studio interference didn't salvage whatever that remained of Snyder's films? so far people have liked the character dynamics and hated the villains while being lukeworm to the plot. We know for a fact that credit for the former goes to Whedon while the latter is all Snyder. Snyder's incompetence necessitates studio interference. The real blunder committed by WB was bringing Snyder back for BVS and then JL.
> 
> I feel like crying.


WB allowed Snyder to make BvS a three-hour movie THEN, at the eleventh hour, they made him cut half an hour off. Since we've seen the Extended Cut of the film getting universally higher critical and fan acclaim, it goes without saying that WB effed up royally there. Snyder can only be considered at fault if he got to decide which scenes were cut and which ones weren't. It's never been made clear who actually made those calls. 

JL? The studio, ONCE AGAIN, ordered forty minutes cut from the movie. Considering what happened with BvS, I'm just about ready to bet folding money that those forty minutes would've made a TON of difference with fans and critics alike.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I seriously don't have the stamina to debate how well motivations are laid out in a film with someone who apparently couldn't hear key lines in a movie and missed who knows what else and has only watched it once. 
> 
> I'm not calling people stupid for not liking a movie, I'm calling them stupid for not being able to grasp something they're beat over the head with. A reviewer saying he couldn't figure out why they were fighting is either lying, fell asleep, or genuinely has problems with their perception. 
> 
> If you think Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man are better than BvS, like many of the critics, I can't control your opinion and your entitled to dislike it. But I'm not going to pretend I don't think choppy pacing or editing in a thematically rich film should be held to a different standard to mediocre uninspiring action-comedies just because they're told in a straight-forward order and have jokes in them. And there are reviewers who specifically reveal those biases in their reviews.


That’s the thing. Most people don’t think BvS is a thematically rich film. Or even a well made film. I’ve sat through it twice and have wanted to fall asleep both times. And believe it or not, people have legitimate reasons for not liking the movie. Pretending as if anyone who didn’t like it either has retention problems or couldn’t follow along is burying your head in the sand. But more importantly, ignoring these problems helps perpetuate them. And it’s gotten to the point where many are willing any DC film or now have a bad perception of DC characters.

We, as fans, need to demand higher quality. I want the DCEU to succeed, but that’s not going to happen if they continue down their current track.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> BvS is anything but clear? I guess it wasn't if you really wanted to not understand it. My wife is by no mean a comic book reader and she had no trouble at all understanding Lex motivation or plan. My dad is in the same boat and he understood the movie very well. Actually, most people I've talked with about Bvs understood it. 
> 
> If you get lost so easily, like you put it, it may not be the movie's fault.


And everyone Ive talked to (all my friends, coworkers, etc.) have said that the movie was a slog to get through. And, it would seem the critics agree with me.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I can get not liking the direction of the movie, but the UE is quite easy to follow. You didn't get what was going on because either you didn't want to, or you just can't follow movies with multiple moving parts.


Never seen the UE and have no interest to. But I doubt the people whose job it is to review movies are somehow unable to follow along with a movie with multiple moving parts. But sure, I’m the one at fault for not liking a film almost universally hated by critics. [/sarcasm]

What’s more likely? That all these critics have some sort of conspiratorial prejudice against DC? Or that it’s just not as good of a movie as you wish it were?

Either way, that is all I have to say on the issue.

----------


## Jokerz79

> And everyone Ive talked to (all my friends, coworkers, etc.) have said that the movie was a slog to get through. And, it would seem the critics agree with me.


The problem was Lex in BvS had too many motives to hate Superman God issues, Daddy issues, simply fearing his power and it's potential and it made him a mess not complex because he was all over the map and never focused he'd jump from reason to reason and it was confusing to many people. It also didn't help he was played like Jim Carrey's Riddler with tics.

----------


## Naked Bat

> And everyone I’ve talked to (all my friends, coworkers, etc.) have said that the movie was a slog to get through. And, it would seem the critics agree with me.


But I'm not arguing about whether people thought the movie was a slog or not. I'm arguing about you not understanding the movie. You're avoiding giving a true answer. Which is your right anyway.

----------


## Naked Bat

> Never seen the UE and have no interest to. But I doubt the people whose job it is to review movies are somehow unable to follow along with a movie with multiple moving parts. But sure, I’m the one at fault for not liking a film almost universally hated by critics. [/sarcasm]
> 
> What’s more likely? That all these critics have some sort of conspiratorial prejudice against DC? Or that it’s just not as good of a movie as you wish it were?
> 
> Either way, that is all I have to say on the issue.


Once again, you're purposely not really answering what he's saying. He's not saying you're wrong not to like the movie. You have the right not to, and it seems you feel that having most critics be on your side makes you right, so good for you.

But saying the critics  hated the movies has nothing to do with you willingly making no effort a story that most of us understood apparently.

----------


## yohyoi

*WILL AFFLECK CONTINUE BEING BATMAN?* Can the DCEU survive without Batman? Will we have a reboot this decade?

The next months will be so exciting!

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Once again, you're purposely not really answering what he's saying. He's not saying you're wrong not to like the movie. You have the right not to, and it seems you feel that having most critics be on your side makes you right, so good for you.
> 
> But saying the critics  hated the movies has nothing to do with you willingly making no effort a story that most of us understood apparently.


I’ve seen it twice. Once in theaters. Once on HBO go. I made the effort.

----------


## Naked Bat

> *WILL AFFLECK CONTINUE BEING BATMAN?* Can the DCEU survive without Batman? Will we have a reboot this decade?
> 
> The next months will be so exciting!


I think Affleck is great in both movies. But if he really wants to go, I would rather see him go and have an actor more commited to the role. Like Nicholas Cage.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It's still a huge movie. It's Justice League.


Exactly. I dunno why people think this is somehow the end of the world. The film hadn't even freaking opened yet!!! Jeez.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

wheddon is doing it. They need to fire his ass, what unprofessional and jerky move

----------


## batnbreakfast

> WB allowed Snyder to make BvS a three-hour movie THEN, at the eleventh hour, they made him cut half an hour off. Since we've seen the Extended Cut of the film getting universally higher critical and fan acclaim, it goes without saying that WB effed up royally there. Snyder can only be considered at fault if he got to decide which scenes were cut and which ones weren't. It's never been made clear who actually made those calls. 
> 
> JL? The studio, ONCE AGAIN, ordered forty minutes cut from the movie. Considering what happened with BvS, I'm just about ready to bet folding money that those forty minutes would've made a TON of difference with fans and critics alike.


That's why I'll happily buy their overpriced BluRays with Ultimate Cuts but won't watch those mediocre fests in theatres anymore.

----------


## Jabare

Yeah I want to see Snyder's original cut. Just let him release the movie he wanted. Literally all the cuts from BvS were good scenes that helped progress the plot and gave Clark and Lois more depth.


Now all the stuff I'm hearing about Joss Whedon ugh

----------


## Soubhagya

> That's why I'll happily buy their overpriced BluRays with Ultimate Cuts but won't watch those mediocre fests in theatres anymore.


Are you sure about that? Critics are speaking. As far as fans are concerned both groups of fans those who hated previous DCEU films or loved them have been largely positive till now. I can spare one watch.

Further i am not fully confident of an extended cut here. BvS was about cuts. This one had apparently lots of stuff happening behind scenes.

----------


## Jabare

most of the complaints about BvS were dumb. There were some legit criticisms, but half the people were complaining about Superman not being Richard Donner and Batman fighting people

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah I want to see Snyder's original cut. Just let him release the movie he wanted.


Problem: he's not interested releasing anything at the moment. Snyder wasn't forced out.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Are you sure about that? Critics are speaking. As far as fans are concerned both groups of fans those who hated previous DCEU films or loved them have been largely positive till now. I can spare one watch.
> 
> Further i am not fully confident of an extended cut here. BvS was about cuts. This one had apparently lots of stuff happening behind scenes.


Right that's what's weird, reviews have been mild but the word of mouth has been really strong, even someone like Scott Mendelson from Forbes said the movie wasn't great but it was a good time at the movies. 

There really doesn't seem to be a sense of overwhelming negativity like there was for BvS. 

It's the freaking Justice League on the big screen, you HAVE to watch it on the big screen, regardless of plot editing etc it's a once in lifetime opportunity and we might not get it again.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Snyder & Whedon both need to be sent packing at this point.


Agreed. WB needs to give this to someone they have confidence in, which I would think is nobody at this point except maybe Jenkins. 

Give the solos room to breathe, don't by shy about including characters in other movies (like Cyborg in Flashpoint), and once we have a few solos then make the call for who to go with for JL2.




> *WILL AFFLECK CONTINUE BEING BATMAN?* Can the DCEU survive without Batman? Will we have a reboot this decade?
> 
> The next months will be so exciting!


No, No (they'll recast), Possibly (via flashpoint).

----------


## Jabare

> Problem: he's not interested releasing anything at the moment. Snyder wasn't forced out.


I get that now. I can't imagine what he's going through and will continue to express my sympathies. However, the film was finished. I'm saying I would like to see the uncut 40 minutes and the on-reshoot footage if possible.

The film was done and they just re-shoot something and added a few scenes, but more than anything they cut over 40 minutes of footage.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Are you sure about that? Critics are speaking. As far as fans are concerned both groups of fans those who hated previous DCEU films or loved them have been largely positive till now. I can spare one watch.
> 
> Further i am not fully confident of an extended cut here. BvS was about cuts. This one had apparently lots of stuff happening behind scenes.


All the negativity thrown towards theese movies got to me. If there's a conspiracy... success!! WB should know what movie to make in the beginning. As long as they don't get the rules of basic filmmaking I'm out (who cares anyway?). Cuts and scandals are why I'm staying away from the movie. Voting with my tiny wallet. Still plan to watch Aquaman unless we hear about the same problems again.

----------


## mace11

Justice League Rotten Tomatoes See It/Skip It REACTION



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j8Q7Fwt_mQ

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> All the negativity thrown towards theese movies got to me. If there's a conspiracy... success!! WB should know what movie to make in the beginning. As long as they don't get the rules of basic filmmaking I'm out (who cares anyway?). Cuts and scandals are why I'm staying away from the movie. Voting with my tiny wallet. Still plan to watch Aquaman unless we hear about the same problems again.




so, you re not able to judge a movie by yourself. Sad that  there is a lot of people like yu

Now i think about ir , why the need to release a movie. Lest just RT  critics see tthem, their opinion is the only one that mattters, anyways

----------


## manofsteel1979

I'm not surprised by RT being so hard on JL. Disappointed, but not surprised.

At least it isn't in the 20's like BvS and SS.

It was telling when both of the reviewers in the segments main problem with the movie and DC in general was either it wasn't following the Marvel formula or ( in the case of the guy whose name escapes me ATM) the fact that it's not Bale in the Batsuit and they aren't continuing Nolan's universe. The other nitpicks ( bad CGI, weak villain etc) which they call " sins" are in abundance with pretty much every Marvel movie of late...Yet no one calls Marvel out for it, but DC gets pilloried. It's almyost parody level.

I personally don't care about the RT score and never have, but some do and that's unfortunate.

----------


## yohyoi

What if RT is the villain for JL2? The greatest enemy of the DCEU, more formidable than Darkseid  :Wink:

----------


## Bossace

> What if RT is the villain for JL2? The greatest enemy of the DCEU, more formidable than Darkseid


Wonder Woman would be the sole survivor, then she would have to form the JLI

----------


## mace11

> I'm not surprised by RT being so hard on JL. Disappointed, but not surprised.
> 
> At least it isn't in the 20's like BvS and SS.
> 
> It was telling when both of the reviewers in the segments main problem with the movie and DC in general was either it wasn't following the Marvel formula or ( in the case of the guy whose name escapes me ATM) the fact that it's not Bale in the Batsuit and they aren't continuing Nolan's universe. 
> *The other nitpicks ( bad CGI, weak villain etc) which they call " sins" are in abundance with pretty much every Marvel movie of late...Yet no one calls Marvel out for it, but DC gets pilloried. It's almyost parody level.
> *


I have not seen  logan,gotg 2,spideman homecoming and thor 2 yet but i what i from what i  read and seen from some reviews and seen so far from trailers is that the villains were not bad,(maybe not great)but not bad and cgi was really good.
Alot people think the marvel movie villains were done well this year or some were great etc..

----------


## mace11

Here some recent talk.John has seen the movie.
Who Matt Reeves Wants As Batman, Is Basmati Blues Culturally Insensitive? The John Campe Show




1:37 poor CGI
17:42 critics on bad villains 
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2-JjnW3w2g

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I have not seen  logan,gotg 2,spideman homecoming and thor 2 yet but i what i heard and seen so far from trailers is that villains were not bad,(maybe not great)but not bad and cgi was really good.


Yeah, I had no problem with any of the CGI in any of those movies

----------


## Frontier

I'm really not the person who should be judging which CGI is good and which is bad  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

Hopefully some silver linings from this:

Silver lining 1: Wan’s Aquaman will hopefully still be good since Wan himself is just a good director (love the Conjuring movies) and it seems to be, at least aesthetically, a departure from what we’re seeing here.

Silver lining 2: Some lessons are learned that:

(A) you can’t rush something that should have been organically built up to. I know people here didn’t want to go the Marvel route of solo movies first, team movie second, but that’s exactly what they should have done. You can’t rush this stuff, which is exactly what they did and that’s part of why it’s not working; and

(B) this whole New 52 style, edgy DCEU isn’t working. They tried it. People don’t like it. Wonder Woman embraced classic attributes of the character and Jenkins herself said that Donner’s Superman was one of her influences. Can’t help but think that that helped make the movie as good as it was. The DCEU needs a Rebirth.

----------


## Buried Alien

> (B) this whole New 52 style, edgy DCEU isn’t working. They tried it. People don’t like it. Wonder Woman embraced classic attributes of the character and Jenkins herself said th*at Donner’s Superman was one of her influences. Can’t help but think that that helped make the movie as good as it was*. The DCEU needs a Rebirth.


Donner's SUPERMAN very blatantly influenced SUPERMAN RETURNS, and the results did not set the world on fire.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Jabare

> What if RT is the villain for JL2? The greatest enemy of the DCEU, more formidable than Darkseid


why people put so much stock in RT I'll never know. I've never been one to follow the crowd

----------


## Frontier

> why people put so much stock in RT I'll never know. I've never been one to follow the crowd


I just kind of laugh when commercials actually bring up a movie's Rotten Tomatoes score now. It just seems so silly  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## richalex

> (A) you can’t rush something that should have been organically built up to. I know people here didn’t want to go the Marvel route of solo movies first, team movie second, but that’s exactly what they should have done. You can’t rush this stuff, which is exactly what they did and that’s part of why it’s not working; and


 I disagree with this. People know the Justice League Characters more than they did the Avengers Characters. They could have easily done the reverse with a Stand alone JL Movie then break out with the solo movies.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Donner's SUPERMAN very blatantly influenced SUPERMAN RETURNS, and the results did not set the world on fire.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Even Superman Returns was better than the current state of the DCEU. It’s not the best Superman movie, but it’s still passable as such. I didn’t mind Man of Steel, but yes I think we need to have a more hopeful, colorful, and inspirational Superman movie. One that embraces traditional Superman mythos in all of its hokey glory and doesn’t try and put an edgy spin on it just because. It should also follow a more traditional story structure. Henry Cavill is a fine Superman but the films he appears in need to start being better.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I disagree with this. People know the Justice League Characters more than they did the Avengers Characters. They could have easily done the reverse with a Stand alone JL Movie then break out with the solo movies.


People are not more familiar with Flash or Green Lantern or Cyborg than they are with Captain America, Iron Man, or Thor. That goes double for Cyborg. They’re familiar with the Trinity and they might have gotten away with not doing a Superman or Batman movie before JL, but they shouldn’t have jumped to JL without doing one for Barry or Victor. Yet that’s what they did, making a Superman movie, a Superman/Batman movie and a Wonder Woman movie and skipping everyone else. Though that last one was worth it.

Cyborg especially because he doesn’t have any solo recognition. Most people know him from the Teen Titans cartoon. So their insistence that he be on the League should have been accompanied with proper investment in making him a solo property. No guarantee it would have worked but still.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Even Superman Returns was better than the current state of the DCEU. It’s not the best Superman movie, but it’s still passable as such. I didn’t mind Man of Steel, but yes I think we need to have a more hopeful and inspirational Superman movie. Henry Cavill is a fine Superman but the films he appears in need to start being better.


Superman Returns was not better. It was uninspired, resting almost purely on nostalgia, and took the character nowhere new. In fact it arguably harmed the character by steeping him in the same tropes and refusing to delve into the many ways the character lives in the pages of the comics. If it takes some rotten scores to expand these characters beyond what the 70's and 80's had to offer then I'm all for that.

----------


## adrikito

*
Review.. justice league brings some light into dc extended-universe.*

https://www.newsarama.com/37388-revi...-universe.html

Better than Man of Steel and Bat vs Sup.. This is something.... Now we need a really good 2nd part..

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Superman Returns was not better. It was uninspired, resting almost purely on nostalgia, and took the character nowhere new. In fact it arguably harmed the character by steeping him in the same tropes and refusing to delve into the many ways the character lives in the pages of the comics. If it takes some rotten scores to expand these characters beyond what the 70's and 80's had to offer then I'm all for that.


Can we really say that we’re taking them *beyond* what they were in the 70s and 80s? I don’t think so. Those Superman movies from the 70s and 80s still hold up decades later. Some of the modern DCEU films can’t hold up in the same year they were made. We shouldn’t mistake different for better just because it’s different.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

What's crazy if not Synder's bold attempt at making a sequel to MoS have Batman a shared DC universe wouldn't have been a thing, we'd probs be wrapping a thrid solo Superman film before moving onto a new rebooted Batman. Instead Justice League will open tomorrow and the next DC film will be Aquaman... Dreams.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Superman Returns was not better.


Indeed.  SUPERMAN RETURNS did not elicit much excitement or acclaim here at the CBR Forums when it was released in 2006, and the intervening eleven years have not improved at least this community's view of that movie.  JUSTICE LEAGUE is already engendering more approval here upon immediate release than SUPERMAN RETURNS has managed in over a decade.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Can we really say that were taking them *beyond* what they were in the 70s and 80s? I dont think so. Those Superman movies from the 70s and 80s still hold up decades later. Some of the modern DCEU films cant hold up in the same year they were made. We shouldnt mistake different for better just because its different.


Many of us here can say they're better and show different valuable sides of the character. You're free to disagree as I'm sure you will.




> Indeed.  SUPERMAN RETURNS did not elicit much excitement or acclaim here at the CBR Forums when it was released in 2006, and the intervening eleven years have not improved at least this community's view of that movie.  JUSTICE LEAGUE is already engendering more approval here upon immediate release than SUPERMAN RETURNS has managed in over a decade.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive)


And I don't even dislike Returns all that much. There are some great scenes in it. But as a work of art, as a character arc, as story, it's very hallow. It's not ambitious and doesn't try to tell us anything other than "The World Still Needs Superman". And the effect on modern audiences was probably the opposite conclusion. Do we still need this "outdated" moral example? And Superman needs to retain that classic sense of good and optimism and hope without feeling like an ancient artifact. This movie didn't help with that project.

----------


## byrd156

Apparently Jake Gyllenhaal is who Matt Reeves wants to replace Ben for the Batman solo movie.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Apparently Jake Gyllenhaal is who Matt Reeves wants to replace Ben for the Batman solo movie.


That's the rumors. Not my favorite pick but he can probably be serviceable. 

Still love muh Batfleck.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Many of us here can say they're better and show different valuable sides of the character. You're free to disagree as I'm sure you will.


Cant really say I can see it that way when most people I know IRL now refuse to see DC movies thanks to the DCEU.

----------


## Buried Alien

> And I don't even dislike Returns all that much. There are some great scenes in it.


The jet-saving scene was one of the finest cinematic Superman moments, but RETURNS didn't have much to offer beyond that exciting ten-minute (or so) sequence.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Jokerz79

> What's crazy if not Synder's bold attempt at making a sequel to MoS have Batman a shared DC universe wouldn't have been a thing, we'd probs be wrapping a thrid solo Superman film before moving onto a new rebooted Batman. Instead Justice League will open tomorrow and the next DC film will be Aquaman... Dreams.


"Snyder's Bold Attempt" That always felt like WB executives being like hey MoS made money but not as much as we wanted so let's put Batman in the next one.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The jet-saving scene was one of the finest cinematic Superman moments, but RETURNS didn't have much to offer beyond that exciting ten-minute (or so) sequence.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Exactly. And it's curious that nobody complained about the movie being depressing when Superman is depowered, stabbed,and literally waterboarded before being thrown off a cliff against a stormy gray background.




> Cant really say I can see it that way when most people I know IRL now refuse to see DC movies thanks to the DCEU.


I'm sure that would affect my view of the franchise as well but many of us have different real life experiences with other viewers.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Exactly. And it's curious that nobody complained about the movie being depressing when Superman is depowered, stabbed,and literally waterboarded before being thrown off a cliff against a stormy gray background.


There was also that slightly embarrassing matter of Superman siring a child out of wedlock.  :Wink: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Even Superman Returns was better than the current state of the DCEU. It’s not the best Superman movie, but it’s still passable as such. I didn’t mind Man of Steel, but yes I think we need to have a more hopeful, colorful, and inspirational Superman movie. One that embraces traditional Superman mythos in all of its hokey glory and doesn’t try and put an edgy spin on it just because. It should also follow a more traditional story structure. Henry Cavill is a fine Superman but the films he appears in need to start being better.


Your first line makes little sense.

----------


## Carabas

> Donner's SUPERMAN very blatantly influenced SUPERMAN RETURNS, and the results did not set the world on fire.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I doubt that's it.

Superman Returns was to Superman The Movie as The Force Awakens was to A New Hope: a sequel that tries very hard to be a remake, and TFA made loads of money.

It's just that Superman Returns wasn't very entertaining.

----------


## Ascended

> The jet-saving scene was one of the finest cinematic Superman moments, but RETURNS didn't have much to offer beyond that exciting ten-minute (or so) sequence.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Agreed. 

I saw that sequence on some talk show or other before the film came out, and I thought Returns was going to be amazing. Regretfully that was the best part of the movie. But damn was it good!

But having a kid out of wedlock? Embarrassing? Come on Buried, this isn't 1950 anymore. I mean, I know that's still shameful in some neighborhoods but I'm pretty sure the majority of society has gotten past that whole thing.

----------


## Buried Alien

> But having a kid out of wedlock? Embarrassing? Come on Buried, this isn't 1950 anymore. I mean, I know that's still shameful in some neighborhoods but I'm pretty sure the majority of society has gotten past that whole thing.


For us ordinary mortals in the real world, certainly.  Superman, however, is held to a higher standard because of what he represents to many people.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Energist

> There was also that slightly embarrassing matter of Superman siring a child out of wedlock. 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Who then later murders someone in the film with a piano.  Don't forget that part.

Seriously, what an awful film.  I saw it opening night and it took everything I had not to get up and walk out of the theatre at that point.  I don't think I've ever been as letdown by a film as I was by _Superman Returns_.  The DCEU is like _The Godfather_ in comparison as far as I'm concerned.

----------


## Punisher007

_Superman Returns_ was basically Bryan Singer's two and a half hour love letter to Richard Donner.  Only while Singer might have been a fan of Donner's film, he clearly didn't truly understand what made Donner's film work.  For one thing, Donner's film was bright and optimistic, full of characters that you could like/identify with.  SR, on the other hand, was drab and boring with characters that were either unlikeable or boring.  When Cyclops and Parker Posey, two secondary characters, are the most enjoyable ones in your movie, you have a problem.

Also trying to say that it was technically a sequel to the first two films, but then picking and choosing what you want to count from said films, ended up being a bad idea.  It just made things feel convoluted.  And Singer tried to emulate the pacing of Donner, but it worked for Donner in a way that it didn't for Singer.

Questionable casting choices, the kid subplot, Superman's characterization, etc.  It was just poorly-conceived on many different levels.

----------


## Jabare

thoughts on Wonder Woman and the Amazons?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

I don't know if being sad of laugh at this video...

----------


## Clark_Kent

> There was also that slightly embarrassing matter of Superman siring a child out of wedlock. 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Even worse, for me, is if taken as a sequel to Superman II then Lois got pregnant with no memory of intercourse with Superman. One will argue the memory kiss isnt canon to SR!, but WB has sold it in a 3-pk with S:TM & SII, as well as the film itself referencing II (Lex having been in the Fortress before). 

Returns is a massive mess, and WB were correct to cancel the sequel.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Apparently Jake Gyllenhaal is who Matt Reeves wants to replace Ben for the Batman solo movie.


I prefer Jon Hamm and think he would be terrific.

----------


## Doctor Know

On my way to the theater now. Catching the 6:00 pm IMAX 2D showing on the East Coast. 

I hope to return triumphant and inspired.

----------


## Stick Figure

I did like the plane rescue from Superman Returns. That's the only scene I like out of the 5 older movies. Ok I'll admit I've never actually seen much of Superman 4.  I wish critics would allow for fresh interpretations of these characters. The old Superman & Batman movies are important in that they brought the characters to the screen but they're horrible movies & too dated to even be in the conversation anymore.  If critics are still using them as a standard then they're never going to appreciate a modern take on the characters.  Superman was a children's character when the old movies came out. Nothing could be further from the truth now. Kids can appreciate the character but his stories aren't for children. Critics need to stop judging the current films using outdated interpretations. The old movies have become a cloud over the everything. 

Edit:  when I mention old Batman movies, I mean the 80's films. The Nolan movies are made with modern sensibilities.

----------


## Bossace

Hopefully these reviews don't effect sequels or the stand alone hero movies. 168 reviews RT has it at 38% other DCEU movies have mostly over 350 reviews so maybe it can swing back some.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I did like the plane rescue from Superman Returns. That's the only scene I like out of the 5 older movies. Ok I'll admit I've never actually seen much of Superman 4.  I wish critics would allow for fresh interpretations of these characters. The old Superman & Batman movies are important in that they brought the characters to the screen but they're horrible movies & too dated to even be in the conversation anymore.  If critics are still using them as a standard then they're never going to appreciate a modern take on the characters.  Superman was a children's character when the old movies came out. Nothing could be further from the truth now. Kids can appreciate the character but his stories aren't for children. Critics need to stop judging the current films using outdated interpretations. The old movies have become a cloud over the everything. 
> 
> Edit:  when I mention old Batman movies, I mean the 80's films. The Nolan movies are made with modern sensibilities.


Not liking Superman 78 or Batman 89 is everyone's right and yes they're dated but so will be the DCEU is a few decades but they're not horrible films by any stretch of the imagination. I don't like Man of Steel but it's a good a movie it's just not my cup of tea.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

Im pissed, reallly

Every..danm..marvel movie , even the mediocre ones, have fresh ratings. Until last year, they were destroying the DCU  for nott being enought like the MCU. Now JL  is a pop corn action super hero flick not so different from avengera, and is destroyed indeed.. Is no serious at this point.

----------


## Lex Luthor

I just saw the reviews and smh it's already in the 30s. I guess they thought some tonal changes was enough but I guess not. Maybe they should cancel the rest of the universe and give us the rest of that WW  trilogy instead

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Im pissed, reallly
> 
> Every..danm..marvel movie , even the mediocre ones, have fresh ratings. Until last year, they were destroying the DCU  for nott being enought like the MCU. Now JL  is a pop corn action super hero flick not so different from avengera, and is destroyed indeed.. Is no serious at this point.


Maybe they changed it in the wrong ways. I've seen a fight clip between Superman and the other leaguers and it wasn't good.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Im pissed, reallly
> 
> Every..danm..marvel movie , even the mediocre ones, have fresh ratings. Until last year, they were destroying the DCU  for nott being enought like the MCU. Now JL  is a pop corn action super hero flick not so different from avengera, and is destroyed indeed.. Is no serious at this point.


From what I'm hearing it's seems one major issue some have with it is the Whedon/MCU type stuff doesn't blend well with Snyder's vision. Sadly this was a film done in committee since day one and the bad response to BvS so is it any surprise it has not done well with critics?

----------


## TheSeaDragon

so, they are not lile he glorious marvel , bad. 

TThey try to be like glorious, marvel , bad


really, cancel any DC  movie until the almigthy MCU  end is run, sigh

----------


## TheSeaDragon

And since everyone on this thread is so wise and have all the replies. How would you do a good JL  movie. Chance is criics would crush your movie indeed

----------


## Jokerz79

> And since everyone on this thread is so wise and have all the replies. How would you do a good JL  movie. Chance is criics would crush your movie indeed


I would do what they should had done with BvS, SS, and JL. I'd hire someone with a vision and then let them do it and let the chips fall where they fall and not edit their films to pieces.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> And since everyone on this thread is so wise and have all the replies. How would you do a good JL  movie. Chance is criics would crush your movie indeed


A movie with good plot that focused on building a team of equally necessary and compotent indivudual heroes with good cinematography and fight scenes that uses one directorial vision so they audience won't leave feeling confused

----------


## TheSeaDragon

looks like they did this movie specifically to please critics. They should have stick to the vision and say F.....critics   

This is sad, as a DC  fan, i have  to expect more years of people sayin how DC  sucks and marvel ruuules

----------


## mace11

43%..... (JUSTICE LEAGUE's ROTTEN TOMATOES SCORE)(Thoughts and Advice....)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tPlHXwSAU

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Maybe they changed it in the wrong ways.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> I've seen a fight clip between Superman and the other leaguers and it wasn't good.
> *end of spoilers*


I think we all had a feeling such a scene existed, but for the sake of the thread be careful of spoilers :P

----------


## Nite-Wing

and here we go again another movie with divisive opinions and since this seems to be the death knell for another superman movie and maybe Batman(assuming affleck is even coming back anymore)
We have to assume WB is gonna go all in on Suicide Squad, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman because if Justice League can't be good then everything is in jeopardy

----------


## Nite-Wing

And Justice League will probably go on to make less money than Suicide Squad
Guess the point of the story is to not listen to critics and stick to your vision. So far DC has ruined itself and all these movies by trying to course correct.
No Marvel doesn't make good movies but DC makes soulless movies and that is apparent with their need to try and follow whatever the critics think is going to please them.
Surprise they all still hated the movie and down the drain the hopes of a non Batman focused DCEU goes
Bring on Joker and Harley and WW apparently they are the saviors of the DCEU now

----------


## TheSeaDragon

i will not try to defend the movie , but geez, the obsession with RT  and its scores is annoying. Is like judge by yourself an have your own mind  is not a thing anymore. People follow the number like is some.....doomsday clock, yeah, i could no help it  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Doctor Know

Just got out of the theater. Definitely a crowd pleaser, popcorn flick. Like The Force Awakens, it's really in a hurry to get some place. At 2 hours, the movie moves at a brisk pace. The theater I sat in had fun and the audience laughed several times. If you're a Superman fan, you won't be disappointed.


Why the critics don't like this one is beyond me.


Definitely go see I for yourselves and bring some friends  :Wink: .

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Just got out of the theater. Definitely a crowd pleaser, popcorn flick. Like The Force Awakens, it's really in a hurry to get some place. At 2 hours, the movie moves at a brisk pace. The theater I sat in had fun and the audience laughed several times. If you're a Superman fan, you won't be disappointed.
> 
> 
> Why the critics don't like this one is beyond me.
> 
> 
> Definitely go see I for yourselves and bring some friends .




Critics can eat shit. I  hope the audience will be kinder with te movie , but to much people have a sheep mentality already

----------


## Bossace

If I had to guess why people rely so much on RT is I'd say a few reasons:

-For some movie goers movies are REALLY expensive tickets food drinks etc, especially when taking a family, so they want to make sure they're seeing something generally popular so it is worth their investment

-Some fans need RT as validity that movie X is better than movie Y based off this

----------


## qwerty3w

> This is sad, as a DC fan, i have to expect more years of people sayin how DC sucks and marvel ruuules


WB sucks, DC is doing relatively well recently, the bad critical responses to DCEU could even benefit it since there would be less pressure for streamlinng and synergies for other medias, which was likely one of the reasons why New 52 existed.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Donner's SUPERMAN very blatantly influenced SUPERMAN RETURNS, and the results did not set the world on fire.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Are you sure about that? Superman Returns may outwardly look like Donner's Superman. But early 2000 Superman comics seems more accurate. A poor uninspired story as we are supposed to feel sad that Lois moved on when Superman abandoned her and the world. Superman who creeps on Lois and her family. A superhero film coming after X-Men and Spider-Man' successes but has almost no action sequences. The film is plainly speaking boring to the mass audiences.

Personally, i hate the Superman. Superman's portrayal was okay and the film was enjoyable. I would say Rebirth means taking best aspects of Donner and Snyder. Rebirth Superman may appear like Pre-Flashpoint Superman as far as history and personality is concerned. But there is New 52 in there. Ask those who have been Superman fans from more then 10 years and have loved New 52. I am not but i read the fans views in Superman's  sectio  and arrived at this conclusion. Superman #30 is an example. He speaks with villains as if he owns the place. Not unlike New 52.

The way is not in slavishly sticking to Donner, or completely rejecting Donner. Find a balance. That's my opinion. Is Wonder Woman like Christopher Reeve? Patty Jenkins has taken inspiration. Returns was not Donner even if it tries to be one. Patty Jenkins has proved how to do Donner. Its not in slavishly attempting to copy Donner while forgetting the spirit of the take.  Its catching that spirit and modernizing it to today's audiences. 

People may ask this: Isn't Reeve outdated? He's from 70s. People seem to forget that even in the 70s Reeve was outdated. Superman was outdated even in 1938 when he first appeared. Look at the scene in Superman The Movie where Lois interviews Superman. Lois represents the cynical modern world. (You will make enemies with every Public official). Superman's ideals to fight for Truth and Justice is something which appears to be of past. His optimism and if i exaggerate it, a bit of naivity in clinging on to something pure in a cynical world is the part of his core appeal. 

Man of Steel changed it a lot. Now he is someone constantly doubting himself. Instead of being unaffected by the outer world while he shines like a light amidst the gloom  (check Gadot's WW) he is unsure and lost. This is a valid take. But it has not worked as it should have. Who is clamouring for a Man Of Steel 2? Only, Superman fans and some DCEU fans. And that's it. I like this take. He feels like a real person who is on the path of becoming the Superman i love. I always defend against unfair criticisms which this version receives a lot. But i am not fully satisfied with Cavill's take till now. Of course, there are people who love it. That's okay but i am trying to see the bigger picture. His return was the talk due to his moustache or his black suit. Not because people were hankering to see more of him. This does make me question what has happened by now. People call him boring? That's the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. One does not become an icon and among the most well known superheroes in the whole planet by being 'boring'. 

Man of Steel has a far better story and is more engaging then Returns. It has fantastic action. I mean why do people go to see Comic book movies if it has no action. Rather go check some drama instead if the superhero film lacks in action as Returns. That's foolish when Spider-man and Co. had changed the landscape for modern audiences. That's another reason why it did not work . Other being its not Donner. Its all an illusion. It looks and speaks like Donner. Even has got the style. But it has no substance.

----------


## Pinsir

Just came back, really liked it! I'm pretty excited for future films now.

----------


## RudHao

> Just got out of the theater. Definitely a crowd pleaser, popcorn flick. Like The Force Awakens, it's really in a hurry to get some place. At 2 hours, the movie moves at a brisk pace. The theater I sat in had fun and the audience laughed several times. If you're a Superman fan, you won't be disappointed.
> 
> 
> Why the critics don't like this one is beyond me.
> 
> 
> Definitely go see I for yourselves and bring some friends .


The movie wasnt made to appeal to those with so called "refined" tastes.

----------


## Doctor Know

> The movie wasnt made to appeal to those with so called "refined" tastes.


Ah, refined tastes. 

These are the same people who rate Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and Ghostbusters 2016, Certified Fresh. Clearly, JL lacked the polish, gravitas and depth of those "gems". 

Lol

----------


## Jokerz79

Superman Returns was the failure people think now I preferred Batman Begins to Superman Returns but they came out around the same time and Superman Returns actually made more money. It wasn't that far behind Batman Begins critically either with Batman Begins getting a 84 and Superman Returns a 76 on RT. Truth was it simply didn't generate the buzz of Batman Begins and Batman Begins had a lower budget. WB made the right choice going forward with the Dark Knight because it was fantastic and a huge hit on every level. But Superman Returns was a failure by any means it simply didn't perform as well as WB wanted it much like the DCEU.

----------


## Bukdiah

Just got back from seeing it. I'm kinda indifferent towards it, but didn't outright hate it. The fact that it can be considered fun could probably cover up the movie's shortcomings. They definitely poured on the levity and utilized Barry with his uber geekiness/meekness to carry the bulk of it. Whether or not you bust a gut laughing is gonna hinge on him though there are some better comedic moments from the other cast members. I'll refrain from getting crazy in depth until more people seen it. I may see it a second time? My brain was kinda on autopilot and I don't think I gave it my full attention.

----------


## Pinsir

*My Full Review*


> Ray Fisher's Cyborg is actually fantastic, I loved every scene he was in and I think there is a lot of room for this character too mature. The fact that a lot of critics didn't connect to him is genuinely disturbing.
> Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman is fantastic as expected
> Ezra Miller's Flash is a lot of fun, looking forward to more
> Henry Cavill's Superman is great, really want to see a sequel. I'm surprised ho powerful he is in this film, he really could crush Steppenwolf by himself. He almost seems too powerful...I actually smiled at a bunch of his scenes, which is something a film hasn't made me do in some time.
> The cinematography is general pretty good, scene composure isn't as good as in BvS, though it is leagues above the competition


Cons

> Ben Affleck is the weakest part of the film, it was clear that BvS really did break him and I actually do get the feeling that he is going to call it quits after this. His performance in BvS was much better
> Jason Mamoa's Aquaman is kind of mixed for me, he's never given much depth. Second to Batfleck he's the weakest character
> Steppenwolf is what he is, forgettable. He does his job, wasn't expecting more, sometimes I could only hear gibberish when he spoke. 
> The film is essentially plotless, which is what you'd expect. 

I'll have to think on it more, I might check this one again in theatres.

----------


## Bukdiah

> *My Full Review*
> 
> 
> > Ray Fisher's Cyborg is actually fantastic, I loved every scene he was in and I think there is a lot of room for this character too mature. The fact that a lot of critics didn't connect to him is genuinely disturbing.
> > Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman is fantastic as expected
> > Ezra Miller's Flash is a lot of fun, looking forward to more
> > Henry Cavill's Superman is great, really want to see a sequel. I'm surprised ho powerful he is in this film, he really could crush Steppenwolf by himself. He almost seems too powerful...I actually smiled at a bunch of his scenes, which is something a film hasn't made me do in some time.
> > The cinematography is general pretty good, scene composure isn't as good as in BvS, though it is leagues above the competition
> 
> ...


Whew, I really thought it was my ears or really poor audio mixing at my theater. Sometimes Batman's voice sounded muffled too.

----------


## Jabare

This movie was pleasantly surprising, maybe all the negative news got me to lower my expectations.

I was a little worried at first because the first act felt so rushed. You could tell there were cuts and it was very compressed. The pace of the film is very fast especially at the beginning.

I was kind of meh on *spoilers:*
 Batman and Wonder Woman in the beginning those scenes weren't as awesome as I thought they'd be. Fortunately the movie picks up after that. 
*end of spoilers* (this isn't a spoiler, but just being respectful for those paranoid about these things)


Ray Fisher is much better than you'd expect.
Ezra Miller truly steals the show. I didn't think I'd like him, but if you go in with an open mind he's a joy.
Jason Momoa is still the man. Love his take on Aquaman. And the way they portray him in the water is fantastic.
Wonder Woman is basically the same from before.
Batman is lighter. I enjoyed him in BvS, but fans will probably like him in this. He comes full circle.

I don't have a problem with Steppenwolf's CGI, his body was fine. His face could have been more polished but it really wouldn't have made a difference. Like many have said he's a 'meh' villain this film is really about the League not him. Would it have helped if he was better sure, but I can think of over 8 films in the last 9 years with the same problems.

The story is fine. Basically end of the world like we've seen in Avengers and all these other team superhero films. 
Some of the complaints people have with the film I don't see. My biggest complaint is the film's pace (I really want an extended addition with those extra 40 minutes).
I also have a gripe about one plot point/story element, but it is spoilery so I'll post about it in another thread.

----------


## sakuyamons

Quoting what I said on the other thread




> Okay, these are my (non-spoilery thoughts):
> 
> I am a huge fan of the DCEU, I liked Snyder's vision with MoS and BvS, and I liked Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman was my favorite out of the bunch. But back to JL, I really loved it.
> 
> Steppenwolf was a bunch of CGI and honestly a villian out of a Marvel movie, but it's okay because the heroes shone more 
> 
> The characters were incredible, Gadot's acting was solid, Batfleck was incredible, Ezra's Barry became easily a fan-favorite, Cyborg and Aquaman were great. Yet the most moving scenes belonged to Superman, period. When he returned...incredible, I found myself gasping on the film, I was so excited. There is something glorious about seeing this team on the big screen. An incredibly feeling, I found myself smiling when I found the Trinity standing together victorious.
> 
> And the second post credit scene...they are coming. 
> ...


I'll probably get the extended cut, to be honest.

----------


## Cimmerian

> Im pissed, reallly
> 
> Every..danm..marvel movie , even the mediocre ones, have fresh ratings. Until last year, they were destroying the DCU  for nott being enought like the MCU. Now JL  is a pop corn action super hero flick not so different from avengera, and is destroyed indeed.. Is no serious at this point.


Well, the DCEU movies have been crap so far with the exception of Wonder Woman, and even that was highly overrated.

Most of what Marvel has put out hasn't done anything to knock my socks off, but they consistently churn out well made, entertaining movies that appeal to everyone from 8 year olds to 80 year olds. They're making their C-listers like Ant-Man and the Guardians of the Galaxy into household names while DC can't even get their biggest heavy hitters right.

It should be obvious to everyone that a guy like Zack Snyder just doesn't understand these characters. I haven't seen Justice League yet, but in Man of Steel and BvS he turned Superman into some mopey douchebag who acts like he'd rather be doing anything else other than saving people...except for whenever Lois Lane gets in a bind. He essentially turned Batman into the Punisher in BvS and thought it would be a great idea to cast a goofy, cackling Jesse Eisenberg (the least intimidating actor this side of Michael Cera) as Superman's arch nemesis.

The guy doesn't have a clue and it shines through in every interview you watch him in.

----------


## Agent Z

> Well, the DCEU movies have been crap so far with the exception of Wonder Woman, and even that was highly overrated.
> 
> Most of what Marvel has put out hasn't done anything to knock my socks off, but they consistently churn out well made, entertaining movies that appeal to everyone from 8 year olds to 80 year olds. They're making their C-listers like Ant-Man and the Guardians of the Galaxy into household names while DC can't even get their biggest heavy hitters right.
> 
> It should be obvious to everyone that a guy like Zack Snyder just doesn't understand these characters. I haven't seen Justice League yet, but in Man of Steel and BvS he turned Superman into some mopey douchebag who acts like he'd rather be doing anything else other than saving people...except for whenever Lois Lane gets in a bind. He essentially turned Batman into the Punisher in BvS and thought it would be a great idea to cast a goofy, cackling Jesse Eisenberg (the least intimidating actor this side of Michael Cera) as Superman's arch nemesis.
> 
> The guy doesn't have a clue and it shines through in every interview you watch him in.


Superman's been a buzzkill for decades and Snyder isn't the first one to have Batman kill in a movie. The only way you can claim he doesn't understand these characters (a complaint I take less and less seriously each time I see it) is if you have an overly generous, one dimensional view of them.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Well, the DCEU movies have been crap so far with the exception of Wonder Woman, and even that was highly overrated.
> 
> Most of what Marvel has put out hasn't done anything to knock my socks off, but they consistently churn out well made, entertaining movies that appeal to everyone from 8 year olds to 80 year olds. They're making their C-listers like Ant-Man and the Guardians of the Galaxy into household names while DC can't even get their biggest heavy hitters right.
> 
> It should be obvious to everyone that a guy like Zack Snyder just doesn't understand these characters. I haven't seen Justice League yet, but in Man of Steel and BvS he turned Superman into some mopey douchebag who acts like he'd rather be doing anything else other than saving people...except for whenever Lois Lane gets in a bind. He essentially turned Batman into the Punisher in BvS and thought it would be a great idea to cast a goofy, cackling Jesse Eisenberg (the least intimidating actor this side of Michael Cera) as Superman's arch nemesis.
> 
> The guy doesn't have a clue and it shines through in every interview you watch him in.


I'd say give JL a shot before you shit on it; a cheap matinee if you're very hesitant. I wasn't in love with it nor Wonder Woman like the public (hailing it as the best ever), but this seems like the fun affair people were looking for in DC movies. Some of your gripes like Supes being a douche is addressed and maybe even remedied in JL.

----------


## Cimmerian

> Superman's been a buzzkill for decades and Snyder isn't the first one to have Batman kill in a movie. The only way you can claim he doesn't understand these characters (a complaint I take less and less seriously each time I see it) is if you have an overly generous view of them.


I'd never seen Superman with a constant pissed off, mopey scowl on his face until Man of Steel.

And yes, Snyder's Batman isn't the first on-screen Batman to kill. But he's sure as hell the first to mow down multiple criminals with the bat mobile, brand criminals to be later murdered in prison, actually wield guns, etc.

These characters aren't that complicated. Superman has pretty much always been the ultimate goody two-shoes boy scout whose naivety is his biggest weakness. Batman is the darker street vigilante with a "no kill code" who swore off ever using guns after the murder of his parents.

The template is pretty simple. It's been pulled off pretty well before. Snyder is just hell bent on making everything "dark" and "brooding" and "cool" like a 14 year old.

----------


## Jabare

Justice League isn't a perfect film but if you love the Avengers films I don't see why you wouldn't love this. Especially the first Avengers film, which does not hold up well at all save for a handful of scenes.


Marvel has its share of stinkers. Captain America: The First Avenger, Thor, Thor: Darkworld. And I don't know why people like Guardians of the Galaxy. I will never get that those films are just meh.


Good Marvel films (such as Ant Man, Doctor Strange, Captain America: winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War) I get. Heck I loved Ironman 1 despite the ending fight being kind of a  let down. And Ironman 2 had some cool elements even if it was a little weak. Ironman 3 is forgettable. Thor: Ragnarok is great too. They made it lighthearted and fun, also they just turned Thor into Hemsworth. He's just an easier going character now.

----------


## Cimmerian

> I'd say give JL a shot before you shit on it; a cheap matinee if you're very hesitant. I wasn't in love with it nor Wonder Woman like the public (hailing it as the best ever), but this seems like the fun affair people were looking for in DC movies. Some of your gripes like Supes being a douche is addressed and maybe even remedied in JL.


Oh, I'll still go see it.

I'm just not holding my breath that it'll blow me away and give me some sort of newfound hope in the DCEU.

After how Man of Steel, BvS and Suicide Squad turned out...I'm not sure how anyone could be so overzealous heading into this. The DC fanboys constantly blaming the critics and review sites like Rotten Tomatoes for the negative backlash is just comical. These haven't been good movies so far. It's really as simple as that.

Hopefully they turn it around, but I doubt it.

I'd personally prefer that they just abandon this "shared cinematic universe" crap and just focus on making quality, standalone movies without having to worry about how they're all going to fit together. 

Marvel planned the MCU for years ahead of time. DC slapped the DCEU together in a super quick, slapdick fashion in order to compete.

----------


## Jabare

I really don't get the dark and brooding complaints with Snyder.

Not everything's got to be cheesy and campy. His Superman was fine. Hell I actually like all the stuff he did with Clark Kent in BvS that got cut out. And I like the character arc Batman and Superman go on. They aren't the characters we know in love. Batman's broken and has to find himself again. Superman's just getting shit on left and right in the media, partially thanks to Lex, ultimately bringing Clark to question himself. However, they find themselves in the end and become the hero we all know and love.

----------


## Agent Z

> I'd never seen Superman with a constant pissed off, mopey scowl on his face until Man of Steel.
> 
> And yes, Snyder's Batman isn't the first on-screen Batman to kill. But he's sure as hell the first to mow down multiple criminals with the bat mobile, brand criminals to be later murdered in prison, actually wield guns, etc.
> 
> These characters aren't that complicated. Superman has pretty much always been the ultimate goody two-shoes boy scout whose naivety is his biggest weakness. Batman is the darker street vigilante with a "no kill code" who swore off ever using guns after the murder of his parents.
> 
> The template is pretty simple. It's been pulled off pretty well before. Snyder is just hell bent on making everything "dark" and "brooding" and "cool" like a 14 year old.


There is a difference between grinning like an idiot all the time and constantly pissed off but I guess not acting like a Looney Tune on sugar rush means being angry all the time. 

Snyder is also the only director to actually address all of this while the other directors pretended their Batman had a no killing code. Never mind almost every version of Batman would make Jack Bauer beam with pride at the use of torture. 

And frankly, between Golden Age Superman being Punisher with super powers, Silver Age being an unsympathetic conedybprotagonist at best, Reeves' version using mind wipes and forced disarmament and how post crisis could be such a prick to his friends (see the Max Lord incident) I'm beginning to wonder where this idealized image of Siperman actually came from. The guy isn't a goody two shoes once you put two seconds of thought into him

----------


## Cimmerian

> There is a difference between grinning like an idiot all the time and constantly pissed off but I guess not acting like a Looney Tune on sugar rush means being angry all the time. 
> 
> Snyder is also the only director to actually address all of this while the other directors pretended their Batman had a no killing code. Never mind almost every version of Batman would make Jack Bauer beam with pride at the use of torture. 
> 
> And frankly, between Golden Age Superman being Punisher with super powers, Silver Age being an unsympathetic conedybprotagonist at best, Reeves' version using mind wipes and forced disarmament and how post crisis could be such a prick to his friends (see the Max Lord incident) I'm beginning to wonder where this idealized image of Siperman actually came from. The guy isn't a goody two shoes once you put two seconds of thought into him


No one cares about how Batman was portrayed in the late 30's/early 40's. That's not the version of the character that has transformed into a mega pop culture icon over the last 50 years.

Christopher Reeves absolutely nailed Superman AND Clark Kent. Two different, distinct personalities. The ultra-confident, idealistic Supes always looking to save the day...and the diffident, timid Clark Kent. Even his body language was different from one character to the other. Meanwhile Cavill's Kent is just his mopey Superman but with a suit, tie and glasses.

Hell, Captain America in the MCU is more Superman than Superman in the DCEU.

----------


## godisawesome

Overall... I liked it. A lot. But I'll be the first to admit I've got some big ol' fanboy blinders, and that the film came in with some extra push for me because I like both Superman and Aquaman being clear Post-Crisis versions. I also tend to not mind CGI as much as some people; Really the only thing I disliked was the non-'stache. The lowest point anything hit for me otherwise was "serviceable." It feels considerably more cohesive and better paced than BvS or Suicide Squad, and has some genuine heart with the characters, which is why the ensemble cast works for me. Overall, Wonder Woman is still a better film on a technical and emotional level, but this film is duking it out with MOS for my #2 in the DCEU.

On the cast, I will say that I can see some of the weaknesses with the format of really launching them here. The film has numerous character interaction scenes that other true team ups don't need, but what is there overall works: Bruce and Diana are the parents with issues, Barry and Cyborg are the accidents, and Aquaman feels like an outsider who shields himself a bit too much. And I still regard Cavill's Superman as superior; he's _my_ Superman, the good natured farmboy who's _not_ perfect, but is someone chooses to do the right thing even when he has clear incentives not too. I'll take him over Reeves not because Reeves did a bad job but because I grow sick of the Silver Age elements of Reeves's portrayal.

This film feels tailored to hit my soft spot in almost all things, save for the selection of Steppenwolf for a villain, and even that's more because as a fan, I knew they chose him as effectively enhancement talent for the League and to give Darkseid something to immediately step over.

I can understand why some people may reject it, but I'm good; bring on the rest.

----------


## Jabare

I wish the comics would use the same Justice League dynamics.

It was fantastic.

----------


## Agent Z

> No one cares about how Batman was portrayed in the late 30's/early 40's. That's not the version of the character that has transformed into a mega pop culture icon over the last 50 years.


Care to point out where I said anything about 30s/40s Batman? I was talking about the modern day movie and comic versions. 





> Christopher Reeves absolutely nailed Superman AND Clark Kent. Two different, distinct personalities. The ultra-confident, idealistic Supes always looking to save the day...and the diffident, timid Clark Kent. Even his body language was different from one character to the other. Meanwhile Cavill's Kent is just his mopey Superman but with a suit, tie and glasses.


Reeves' Superman is similarly irrelevant and is a product of a bygone era.




> Hell, Captain America in the MCU is more Superman than Superman in the DCEU.


Ah yes the sanctimonious, hypocritical war hawk who places his entire self worth in his ability to hurt people while whining about people with agendas everytime someone calls him out on his recklessness. You can keep him and his little band of terrorists.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

sorry, worng quote, editing

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> There is a difference between grinning like an idiot all the time and constantly pissed off but I guess not acting like a Looney Tune on sugar rush means being angry all the time. 
> 
> Snyder is also the only director to actually address all of this while the other directors pretended their Batman had a no killing code. Never mind almost every version of Batman would make Jack Bauer beam with pride at the use of torture. 
> 
> And frankly, between Golden Age Superman being Punisher with super powers, Silver Age being an unsympathetic conedybprotagonist at best, Reeves' version using mind wipes and forced disarmament and how post crisis could be such a prick to his friends (see the Max Lord incident) I'm beginning to wonder where this idealized image of Siperman actually came from. The guy isn't a goody two shoes once you put two seconds of thought into him


bless this poss, sometimes i dont get where those supossed gold standards came from

----------


## Pinsir

> No one cares about how Batman was portrayed in the late 30's/early 40's. That's not the version of the character that has transformed into a mega pop culture icon over the last 50 years.
> 
> Christopher Reeves absolutely nailed Superman AND Clark Kent. Two different, distinct personalities. The ultra-confident, idealistic Supes always looking to save the day...and the diffident, timid Clark Kent. Even his body language was different from one character to the other. Meanwhile Cavill's Kent is just his mopey Superman but with a suit, tie and glasses.
> 
> Hell, Captain America in the MCU is more Superman than Superman in the DCEU.


Can you at least watch the film if you want to keep commenting on how Superman is or isn't in the DCEU? You're just ranting at people.

Also no, I don't recall a story where Superman goes renegade and beats up a bunch of German police officers, nor ally himself to an organization that tried to nuke a city of millions.

----------


## RudHao

Just got back from seeing it. Ima be honest it was super boring, way too boring.

Other people in the theatre laughed at Flash but i thought he was annoying, i think they are going for some kind of autistic version of flash (definitely on the "spectrum") but i dont think that works. 

Aquaman a walking caricature but i guess they didn't have time for anythung else, movie felt short.

Steppengeneric was meh and i think once Superman showed up he was defeated a little too easily... I wish I was making this up, but i took my 2 younger brothers to see the movie, the 15 year old said he liked it, in the car in the theatre parking lot i asked him what he thought about Steppenwolf, do you know what his response was? He said "whose that?". Like really, he says he liked the movie but he can't even remember the name of the villain minutes after seeing it, lol.

Alleged WonderBat shipping, Alfred making a lame joke about Bruce Wayne supposedly liking Dianna is all it is, if you cut that scene out the alleged "chemistry" would be unnoticeable...

That entire "The world being super sad and miserable and crime and terrorism being up just cause Superman 'hope of the universe' died" is dumb as hell. Exactly how long was Superman active between Man of Steel and BvS for him to have such an impact on people taht him being dead is making the world lose hope over his death? Nowhere near long enough.... makes the people in the DCEU seem like a bunch of weak babies....

----------


## Frontier

> Overall... I liked it. A lot. But I'll be the first to admit I've got some big ol' fanboy blinders, and that the film came in with some extra push for me because I like both Superman and *Aquaman being clear Post-Crisis versions*. I also tend to not mind CGI as much as some people; Really the only thing I disliked was the non-'stache. The lowest point anything hit for me otherwise was "serviceable." It feels considerably more cohesive and better paced than BvS or Suicide Squad, and has some genuine heart with the characters, which is why the ensemble cast works for me. Overall, Wonder Woman is still a better film on a technical and emotional level, but this film is duking it out with MOS for my #2 in the DCEU.
> 
> On the cast, I will say that I can see some of the weaknesses with the format of really launching them here. The film has numerous character interaction scenes that other true team ups don't need, but what is there overall works: Bruce and Diana are the parents with issues, Barry and Cyborg are the accidents, and Aquaman feels like an outsider who shields himself a bit too much. And I still regard Cavill's Superman as superior; he's _my_ Superman, the good natured farmboy who's _not_ perfect, but is someone chooses to do the right thing even when he has clear incentives not too. I'll take him over Reeves not because Reeves did a bad job but because I grow sick of the Silver Age elements of Reeves's portrayal.
> 
> This film feels tailored to hit my soft spot in almost all things, save for the selection of Steppenwolf for a villain, and even that's more because as a fan, I knew they chose him as effectively enhancement talent for the League and to give Darkseid something to immediately step over.
> 
> I can understand why some people may reject it, but I'm good; bring on the rest.


Is there more Post-Crisis Aquaman in his depiction then what we've seen so far? 

Because he seems more like a mish-mash of various Aquaman's (classic origin, bearded savage, trident, bombastic personality, Mera) with an attitude that none of them have ever really had before.

----------


## Jabare

baaahhh nvm

----------


## byrd156

Saw JL, it was fun. Not as good as WW but it was a step in the right direction for the DCEU. I really hope DC uses Flashpoint to fix the DCEU ship.

----------


## byrd156

> Justice League isn't a perfect film but if you love the Avengers films I don't see why you wouldn't love this. Especially the first Avengers film, which does not hold up well at all save for a handful of scenes.
> 
> 
> Marvel has its share of stinkers. Captain America: The First Avenger, Thor, Thor: Darkworld. And I don't know why people like Guardians of the Galaxy. I will never get that those films are just meh.
> 
> 
> Good Marvel films (such as Ant Man, Doctor Strange, Captain America: winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War) I get. Heck I loved Ironman 1 despite the ending fight being kind of a  let down. And Ironman 2 had some cool elements even if it was a little weak. Ironman 3 is forgettable. Thor: Ragnarok is great too. They made it lighthearted and fun, also they just turned Thor into Hemsworth. He's just an easier going character now.


First Avenger is fantastic I don't know what you are talking about.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Justice League isn't a perfect film but if you love the Avengers films I don't see why you wouldn't love this. Especially the first Avengers film, which does not hold up well at all save for a handful of scenes.
> 
> 
> Marvel has its share of stinkers. Captain America: The First Avenger, Thor, Thor: Darkworld. And I don't know why people like Guardians of the Galaxy. I will never get that those films are just meh.
> 
> 
> Good Marvel films (such as Ant Man, Doctor Strange, Captain America: winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War) I get. Heck I loved Ironman 1 despite the ending fight being kind of a  let down. And Ironman 2 had some cool elements even if it was a little weak. Ironman 3 is forgettable. Thor: Ragnarok is great too. They made it lighthearted and fun, also they just turned Thor into Hemsworth. He's just an easier going character now.


Captain America the First Avenger is great IMO.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Captain America the First Avenger is great IMO.


It's not a stinker but the second half is kind of a snoozefest. A pretty big letdown after the spectacular first half IMO.

----------


## Lightning Rider

The First Avenger is alright. For some reason I did feel a kind of boring lag and a lot of what I wanted to see Captain America do was summarized in weird montages.

----------


## Frontier

> First Avenger is fantastic I don't know what you are talking about.





> Captain America the First Avenger is great IMO.


Same here  :Smile: .

----------


## HaveAtThee

Saw the movie and generally thought it was a pretty good film.  The first act was incredibly rushed as others have said, but they had to speed through the introductions of Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg and Steppenwolf.  Once that is over the movie picks up steam and is enjoyable to watch.  Well-timed humor and genuine drama between the characters themselves.  Really, this was essentially a vehicle to introduce these characters and get them to interact with each other.  Because of the bare-bones plot it borders on a forgettable (albeit fun) film, but it's saved by the very nice chemistry the characters have together.  Compared with Avengers it's not far off.  Avengers had two big advantages in that the characters were established already and the film was around a half hour longer which allowed for a beefier plot (and a better villain).  It was definitely a step in the right direction for DC.  

Without posting spoilers I thought that Superman (at one point), appeared to be a bit too powerful.  Others who've seen it probably know what I'm talking about.

----------


## Nite-Wing

It takes a really bad plot and script to be worse than BvS and that movie was basically ruined by hinging on a really bad performance by Lex Luthor and characters not speaking to each other.
In this movie everyone is talking to each other and there's a lot of action but what is there, What is the heart of this movie?
It has none 
It's just essentially an excuse to get characters to come together artificially 
Hell you even have some of the same bad scene transitions from BvS returning here

The people actually saying they liked Superman in this are being really really generous here. I mean I understand you have been served crap for like 2 movies as a fan but getting served table scraps does not make this an amazing movie.

If anything I'd say Wonder Woman was clearly done the best service with this movie. She was great and in many ways carried the movie. Its just that her awesome scenes happen to be in a really bad movie.

Cyborg another stand out has to be introduced in a really fast and loose way that his character never comes back from.

Aquaman
He's basically underwater Wolverine. I guess it works 

Its a bad movie and I mean it could be good if they gave the team a reason to exist besides what one character constantly says

----------


## Bossace

‘Justice League’ Eyeing $12 Million Thursday Night Debut

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/17/j...ay-screenings/

Wonder Woman did around that so thats possibly a good sign

----------


## Korath

There is something I really don't get. How can Marvel repeat ad nauseam the same movies with just different characters, doing a serviceable job at it but without great ambition nowaday and not get blasted, and the DCEU gets lambasted for anything. Any small mistake and its movies are passable or mediocre... Seriously, I'm at a loss. Justice League was a good movies, one I'll watch again happily. I don't like it to the level of BvS (probably because of the 40 minutes missing), but nonetheless far better than anything Marvel made since Age of Ultron.

It kills me to see people put Steppenwolf at the level or below Ronan and Malekith, when the guy has everything their lacked (gravitas, history well shown, a sense of danger). I mean, Ronan ! The guy who never stopped for anything during the whole movies but ho'se frozen solide by Star Lord dancing...

----------


## Stick Figure

The DC films take their characters seriously. I appreciate that. Comic books have been written off as being for kids for so long. That hasn't been true for decades!  Marvel gives us super heroes for children. There's enough there that adults can enjoy them but they're kids films.  DC gives us some complexity. These aren't smiling heroes in bright costumes. Until critics stop viewing super heroes as light summer fun films, the DC films will always get lower scores.

----------


## Angelo2113

Just came back from it. Had an absolute blast! Lots of great stuff for DC fans. BvS: UE is still my favorite DCEU film but I took Justice Leage as the beacon of what to expect and it's going to be a great ride. Really want to see Snyder's finished version and hope to see it one day though.

----------


## TheSupernaut

> Just got back from seeing it. Ima be honest it was super boring, way too boring.
> 
> Other people in the theatre laughed at Flash but i thought he was annoying, i think they are going for some kind of autistic version of flash (definitely on the "spectrum") but i dont think that works. 
> 
> Aquaman a walking caricature but i guess they didn't have time for anythung else, movie felt short.
> 
> Steppengeneric was meh and i think once Superman showed up he was defeated a little too easily... I wish I was making this up, but i took my 2 younger brothers to see the movie, the 15 year old said he liked it, in the car in the theatre parking lot i asked him what he thought about Steppenwolf, do you know what his response was? He said "whose that?". Like really, he says he liked the movie but he can't even remember the name of the villain minutes after seeing it, lol.
> 
> Alleged WonderBat shipping, Alfred making a lame joke about Bruce Wayne supposedly liking Dianna is all it is, if you cut that scene out the alleged "chemistry" would be unnoticeable...
> ...


JFK was only president for a similarly short amount of time and people still mourned and missed him.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I'll probably get the extended cut, to be honest.


Oh how I hope there will even BE one!

I don't think anyone cut together anything but the theatrical release. I think the best we might hope for is a generous helping of deleted scenes. There has to be about 90 minutes or more worth of movie on the cutting room floor but I don't think anyone has assembled it as a narrative.

I'd be thrilled to be wrong about this but I'd also be very happy just to have all the deleted scenes. I just hope they don't hold back the extra material for some reason.

I'm going to watch this again and again (more than any other movie ever) because of all the great moments, not because the narrative was really anything. It was the moments and the completed scenes themselves. I want all the rest of those moments and completed or incomplete scenes. I would pay a stupid amount of money for that.

----------


## BatmanJones

> looks like they did this movie specifically to please critics. They should have stick to the vision and say F.....critics   
> 
> This is sad, as a DC  fan, i have  to expect more years of people sayin how DC  sucks and marvel ruuules


They may have set out to do that but IMO they made a movie that couldn't be more pleasing to the most serious of fans. As I keep on saying, SO much fan service. I think the more you care about the Justice League as we know them from the comics and animated stuff, the more you are probably going to love this movie too. Or love too much of this movie to not care very much that it's not a very good movie apart from how great it is at serving fans. And how wonderful is that! To have just one like that! That's why this movie satisfied me in ways no prior CBM has. I'd rather have what we got than a hit movie with far less of the great character moments that will appeal most to those that have been waiting decades for this, because I'm one of them. Nearly 5 decades and I was SO SATISFIED. And I'm NEVER satisfied by CBM's.

There were so many moments I loved I can't even remember half of them. (I saw it at Monday screening and my jaw was on the floor the whole time - I hardly remembered my name after.) So I can't wait to see it at least once more this weekend.

I'd be curious to see a poll that gauged both posters' response to the movie AND their level of fandom specifically for the JL(A) because I would expect the bigger the fan of the one, the bigger the fan of the other.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The DC films take their characters seriously. I appreciate that. Comic books have been written off as being for kids for so long. That hasn't been true for decades!  Marvel gives us super heroes for children. There's enough there that adults can enjoy them but they're kids films.  DC gives us some complexity. These aren't smiling heroes in bright costumes. Until critics stop viewing super heroes as light summer fun films, the DC films will always get lower scores.


I always take issue with this idea one not being bright or funny doesn't make a comic film complex or "adult". Two "Marvel gives us superheroes for children" thank god because that's who superheroes were created for it's fantastic when a superhero property is accessible to both children and adults. I love Star Wars but I love what George Lucas said at the 40th anniversary "I made movies for 12 years olds" and he was right Star Wars is great but was made for kids and there is nothing wrong with that.  Every time I hear these arguments it sounds like people ashamed of liking Superheroes and feel like they need to justify it by proofing superheroes can be "adult".

----------


## BatmanJones

> I wish the comics would use the same Justice League dynamics.
> 
> It was fantastic.


Glad to hear you dug it!

I think the reason it works as well as it does (in the ways that it does) is that it plays very much like like the best of the comics but without copying any of them, and showing us their origin in a new and refreshing way. But still with the characters immediately recognizable as the ones we grew up loving when we were kids.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Is there more Post-Crisis Aquaman in his depiction then what we've seen so far? 
> 
> Because he seems more like a mish-mash of various Aquaman's (classic origin, bearded savage, trident, bombastic personality, Mera) with an attitude that none of them have ever really had before.


That's an apt description. He's not always Aqua-bro though.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Oh how I hope there will even BE one!
> 
> I don't think anyone cut together anything but the theatrical release.


Oh how I LOVE to be SO WRONG about this!!! I think this is ****BREAKING NEWS*****

*******AN EXTENDED, 3-HOUR, SNYDER CUT EXISTS*******

https://www.cosmicbooknews.com/justi...ut-possibility

----------


## mace11

> There is something I really don't get. How can Marvel repeat ad nauseam the same movies with just different characters, doing a serviceable job at it but without great ambition nowaday and not get blasted, and the DCEU gets lambasted for anything. Any small mistake and its movies are passable or mediocre... Seriously, I'm at a loss. 
> 
> 
> It kills me to see people put Steppenwolf at the level or below Ronan and Malekith, when the guy has everything their lacked (gravitas, history well shown, a sense of danger). I mean, Ronan ! The guy who never stopped for anything during the whole movies but ho'se frozen solide by Star Lord dancing...


I am not going into details but clearly i don't agree.




> but nonetheless far better than anything Marvel made since Age of Ultron.


Most people don't agree,but hey there a few folks that believe superman 3 is better then superman the movie or superman 2,so there always be someone who will have a  different or  minority view.

----------


## Soubhagya

I just came back from watching it. I had a blast! BatmanJones i totally agree with you. This has been the film i had been waiting for my whole life! At least since i loved JL and JLU. It took some time to click. But once it did my Lord it was totally awesome! Now i can die with a smile on my face!  :Big Grin: 

I enjoyed it more then Winter Soldier, more then Avengers, even more then Dark Knight. This does not mean that it is as good as them. See art is subjective. We are all from different places with different life experiences. Our opinions will vary. If our opinions are one, are we not some kind of mindless beings programmed to behave and feel in the same way? 

If you are a casual viewer you will definitely have a good time. If you are a DC fan you will love it. That's all i have to say. Its a crowd pleaser. The theater was cheering so much at times that i was having problems to hear dialogues. I won't say this will happen to you but man its definitely a film in which almost everyone can have a good time. Well almost.  :Frown:  

I have zero complaints except for a nitpick with a certain character. But i won't get into spoilers. I can't understand the low score. Its definitely not a bad movie. Definitely worth my time and money.

----------


## Naked Bat

> No one cares about how Batman was portrayed in the late 30's/early 40's. That's not the version of the character that has transformed into a mega pop culture icon over the last 50 years.
> 
> Christopher Reeves absolutely nailed Superman AND Clark Kent. Two different, distinct personalities. *The ultra-confident, idealistic Supes always looking to save the day...*and the diffident, timid Clark Kent. Even his body language was different from one character to the other. Meanwhile Cavill's Kent is just his mopey Superman but with a suit, tie and glasses.
> 
> Hell, Captain America in the MCU is more Superman than Superman in the DCEU.


I take it you never watched superman II then. Because the guy always looking to save the day decided he didn't want to be superman anymore in this movie, just because he wanted to have a girlfriend.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Same here .


I love it, too. In fact, the first two Cap films are my favorites from the MCU.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I take it you never watched superman II then. Because the guy always looking to save the day decided he didn't want to be superman anymore in this movie, just because he wanted to have a girlfriend.


You know, that was my favorite CBM for years until _Batman_ in '89, but that whole subplot was kind of stupid even then to me. Also, at least Wondy turning her back on mankind in BvS doesn't seem shallow like Clark ditching the superhero bit for love.

----------


## Thomas Crown

You know, the more I think about it, the more becomes clear to me that "Justice League" went through a "Superman II situation" behind the scenes and with the same level of quality in the final product.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I just came back from watching it. I had a blast! BatmanJones i totally agree with you. This has been the film i had been waiting for my whole life! At least since i loved JL and JLU. It took some time to click. But once it did my Lord it was totally awesome! Now i can die with a smile on my face! 
> 
> I enjoyed it more then Winter Soldier, more then Avengers, even more then Dark Knight. This does not mean that it is as good as them. See art is subjective. We are all from different places with different life experiences. Our opinions will vary. If our opinions are one, are we not some kind of mindless beings programmed to behave and feel in the same way? 
> 
> If you are a casual viewer you will definitely have a good time. If you are a DC fan you will love it. That's all i have to say. Its a crowd pleaser. The theater was cheering so much at times that i was having problems to hear dialogues. I won't say this will happen to you but man its definitely a film in which almost everyone can have a good time. Well almost.  
> 
> I have zero complaints except for a nitpick with a certain character. But i won't get into spoilers. I can't understand the low score. Its definitely not a bad movie. Definitely worth my time and money.


What did you think of the Elfman score?

----------


## manofsteel1979

Well gents...JL day for me. Going to see it this morning at 10:30 am! Looking forward to it!

----------


## Naked Bat

> You know, that was my favorite CBM for years until _Batman_ in '89, but that whole subplot was kind of stupid even then to me. Also, at least Wondy turning her back on mankind in BvS doesn't seem shallow like Clark ditching the superhero bit for love.


Superman II has never been my favourite CBM, but it's one I've loved since I was a kid, but as far as I can remember, I've always thought it was such a dumb story point, and it makes very little sense for him to do that.





> You know, the more I think about it, the more becomes clear to me that "Justice League" went through a "Superman II situation" behind the scenes and with the same level of quality in the final product.


It's a very appropriate analogy imo. I think Zack trusted Whedon and Whedon did what he wanted to do. Him liking tweets trashing the movie makes me think he would be willing to throw snyder under the bus if that can help his carreer.




> Well gents...JL day for me. Going to see it this morning at 10:30 am! Looking forward to it!


I hope you will have a good time!

----------


## Soubhagya

> What did you think of the Elfman score?


I think it was okay. Imo it works within the film. But its nothing special and not at all memorable. Its not soul stirring like Zimmer. Its not as good as Junkie XL. I like BvS music a lot. The little use of Williams was good because it works within the context of the scene. Others were just there. Its a passable score when seen within the film. But nothing stays with you. This from someone who liked Elfman in Age of Ultron.

----------


## Jabare

I didn't like the music in the very beginning otherwise I thought the music was good

----------


## Wandering_Wand

There was an article this morning on CBM about the money needed for JL to break even...

Sigh...

I rarely (if ever) see those types of articles for MCU films. Every DCEU movie has made profit, it’s just to what degree. Anyway, I’m not going to get into a debate about that. Just wanted to show the differences in media coverage this universe gets sometimes. It’s JL day! Going this afternoon AND tomorrow!

----------


## Beaubier

I liked it. It was flawed, but very enjoyable. Too rushed in some places, too much slow mo in others, and a little cheesy.. but still a really fun movie that showcased all of the characters pretty well. Though I think there wasnt enough Aquaman.

If anything the movie felt too short. I feel like it needed to be at least a half hour longer.

I think JL will do well at the box office. Last night in my city it was getting sold out all over town.. I think people will go out to see it for the characters despite whatever RT is saying.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I didn't like the music in the very beginning otherwise I thought the music was good


I think this the problem with critics. Comparison. I was a bit too scathing as in comparison to the previous films it felt lacking. I have had great pieces of music from DC. It pales in comparison to them. But then when i keep such high expectations what else to expect. Not every DC film shall have a music for my playlist. Once in a while one may get something great but generally its good enough to be just a film score. Thus, i said i have no problems with the film.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> There was an article this morning on CBM about the money needed for JL to break even...
> 
> Sigh...
> 
> I rarely (if ever) see those types of articles for MCU films. Every DCEU movie has made profit, it’s just to what degree. Anyway, I’m not going to get into a debate about that. Just wanted to show the differences in media coverage this universe gets sometimes. It’s JL day! Going this afternoon AND tomorrow!


That's because most MCU films are well on pace to break even or better come opening weekend and usually have positive reviews. For the ones that aren't, they don't really matter because enough do that it offsets one or two movies that underperform.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> There is something I really don't get. How can Marvel repeat ad nauseam the same movies with just different characters, doing a serviceable job at it but without great ambition nowaday and not get blasted, and the DCEU gets lambasted for anything. Any small mistake and its movies are passable or mediocre... Seriously, I'm at a loss. Justice League was a good movies, one I'll watch again happily. I don't like it to the level of BvS (probably because of the 40 minutes missing), but nonetheless far better than anything Marvel made since Age of Ultron.
> 
> It kills me to see people put Steppenwolf at the level or below Ronan and Malekith, when the guy has everything their lacked (gravitas, history well shown, a sense of danger). I mean, Ronan ! The guy who never stopped for anything during the whole movies but ho'se frozen solide by Star Lord dancing...





> I am not going into details but clearly i don't agree.
> 
> 
> Most people don't agree,but hey there a few folks that believe superman 3 is better then superman the movie or superman 2,so there always be someone who will have a  different or  minority view.


Pretty much what mace11 said. While MCU films can be formulaic at times, the structure they usually follow hits all of the story beats that you need to have an entertaining and well-told movie. Now, of course, Marvel isn't the ONLY company capable of pulling this off. DC proved that they can with Wonder Woman. However, the difference there is that Marvel *consistently* hits all the necessary story beats, which is why they regularly put out Wonder Woman-level quality movies, while DC's only gotten Wonder Woman as a real success.

And I think we need to remember that we here on a DC comic book forum are predisposed to want to love any DC movie, so we overlook their flaws. But that's not the approach that reviewers and the general audience take to these movies. Just because someone buys the ticket doesn't mean they'll like what they see.

Suicide Squad and BvS had serious technical and narrative flaws. That's why they didn't get good reviews.

----------


## Doctor Know

JUSTICE FOR ALL!

----------


## Jokerz79

> I liked it. It was flawed, but very enjoyable. Too rushed in some places, too much slow mo in others, and a little cheesy.. but still a really fun movie that showcased all of the characters pretty well. Though I think there wasnt enough Aquaman.
> 
> If anything the movie felt too short. I feel like it needed to be at least a half hour longer.
> 
> I think JL will do well at the box office. Last night in my city it was getting sold out all over town.. I think people will go out to see it for the characters despite whatever RT is saying.


I posted the other day I was worried about it making a profit due to the rumored 300 million dollar budget and you can usually add another 100 million in marketing and advertising. Then factor in studios get about 60 to 65% of tickets sales I figured it would be a high number and my fear wasn't even RT but that Pixar's Coco is coming out on the 22nd meaning JL won't even get a full week alone at the top as a high profile release and Coco is getting good reviews, buzz, and looks good.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I posted the other day I was worried about it making a profit due to the rumored 300 million dollar budget and you can usually add another 100 million in marketing and advertising. Then factor in studios get about 60 to 65% of tickets sales I figured it would be a high number and my fear wasn't even RT but that Pixar's Coco is coming out on the 22nd meaning JL won't even get a full week alone at the top as a high profile release and Coco is getting good reviews, buzz, and looks good.


You never factor in the advertising budget. For flicks like these, most of the time they make enough off of sponsors and product placements to cover the ad cost.

MOS made $175 million on product placing alone. With it's budget being $225 million and total gross $670 million. 

BvS was about the same.

----------


## Jokerz79

> You never factor in the advertising budget. For flicks like these, most of the time they make enough off of sponsors and product placements to cover the ad cost.
> 
> MOS made $175 million on product placing alone. With it's budget being $225 million and total gross $670 million. 
> 
> BvS was about the same.


Except marketing is usually factored in it's why Paul Feig said Ghostbusters Answer the Call needed to make 500 million worldwide even on 144 million budget. Now JL will make money a lot of money but will it make what the Studio hopes is the real question.

----------


## Thomas Crown

Zack Snyder talked about "Justice League" on Vero:

DO1-PqGUMAEuueU.jpg

I'm going to be honest. I know his career could be over if he did that, but part of me want Zack to be brutally honest about what really happened behind the scenes. But I guess he's too much of a class act for that.

----------


## Beaubier

> I posted the other day I was worried about it making a profit due to the rumored 300 million dollar budget and you can usually add another 100 million in marketing and advertising. Then factor in studios get about 60 to 65% of tickets sales I figured it would be a high number and my fear wasn't even RT but that Pixar's Coco is coming out on the 22nd meaning JL won't even get a full week alone at the top as a high profile release and Coco is getting good reviews, buzz, and looks good.


Coco does look good, and I'm planning on seeing it, but I would think its primary target audience is different than JL's.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You never factor in the advertising budget. For flicks like these, most of the time they make enough off of sponsors and product placements to cover the ad cost.
> 
> MOS made $175 million on product placing alone. With it's budget being $225 million and total gross $670 million. 
> 
> BvS was about the same.


Right. Besides, the studio marketing budget is set at the beginning of the year regardless of what movies will be produced within that year.

----------


## Bossace

Less than an hour til mine starts! 11 am Cinemark XD 3D.Think I may get one of those cups I've seen online Cinemark has for JL, really excited.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Going to see it tonight. Can't wait.

----------


## Korath

> Pretty much what mace11 said. While MCU films can be formulaic at times, the structure they usually follow hits all of the story beats that you need to have an entertaining and well-told movie. Now, of course, Marvel isn't the ONLY company capable of pulling this off. DC proved that they can with Wonder Woman. However, the difference there is that Marvel *consistently* hits all the necessary story beats, which is why they regularly put out Wonder Woman-level quality movies, while DC's only gotten Wonder Woman as a real success.
> 
> And I think we need to remember that we here on a DC comic book forum are predisposed to want to love any DC movie, so we overlook their flaws. But that's not the approach that reviewers and the general audience take to these movies. Just because someone buys the ticket doesn't mean they'll like what they see.
> 
> Suicide Squad and BvS had serious technical and narrative flaws. That's why they didn't get good reviews.


Marvel does the basic minimum now. They aren't trying to innovate. They've found their formula and use it all the time. Once you've seen a Marvel movies, you've seen them all, that's what I don't like about it and why I'm terribly bored by their movies. That and their humours which I really dislike (the amount more than the tone). So far, with the exception of SS (which was terribly bad); DC movies were better for the insistence to try to be ambitious. And BvS has no true narrative flaw, only it asks the viewer to actually uses his brain a little, and people aren't used to it because of Marvel movies.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Marvel does the basic minimum now. They aren't trying to innovate. They've found their formula and use it all the time. Once you've seen a Marvel movies, you've seen them all


Thor: Ragnorok and Captain America: Winter Soldier and Spider-Man: Homecoming and Avengers are almost nothing alike. They all have different plot points, character dynamics, and themes. The only real similarity they share is that they're all superhero movies.




> That and their humours which I really dislike (the amount more than the tone).


Okay, but there's no denying that, with the humor aspect, they've been able to enthrall the audience.




> So far, with the exception of SS (which was terribly bad); DC movies were better for the insistence to try to be ambitious. And BvS has no true narrative flaw, only it asks the viewer to actually uses his brain a little, and people aren't used to it because of Marvel movies.


Just because something tries to be something doesn't mean that it succeeds. BvS tried to be this epic showdown between Batman and Superman. However, in a still nascent DCEU, there was really no satisfactory justification for the conflict between them and the one they went with just felt manufactured and forced. Captain America: Civil War succeeded where BvS failed because we'd seen Steve and Tony interact and clash and have differences in philosophy. In BvS, Bruce just automatically hates Clark before even having met him, for a reason that, personally felt entirely unearned.

Also, doesn't help that BvS had a very choppy story progression and each scene felt like it lasted tops one to two minutes. The whole thing felt rushed and slapped together.

Those are very present and real flaws. And that's part of the reason it wasn't well-received. It tried to be an ambitious take on superheroes but faltered.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

That. That. That was AWESOME!!! Holy crap, heroes got nailed and that was the important part, first act was paced uneven then after that it flowed well, a few Whedon-isms but not as much thank god. Villain was fine did his job. 

Satisfied is an understatement.

----------


## Korath

Civil War was laughably bad. The conflict made no sense (neither for Iron Man nor Steve), Captain America was even more stupid than he is usually (by far, he is the least interesting Avenger for me, probably because I'm not American and he doesn't appeal to my patriotic vibe/ nostalgia), the villain was terribly over-knowledgeable for who he was (compared to Lex Luthor who had least had the means and the clout to do what he did). Furthermore, the differences of ideologies were non-present. Iron Man fought Captain America because the two where too stupid to talk at first, and then because Bucky had killed his mother. There was no deep plot, no reason for their battle. And the plot itself was destroyed by the phone at the end, which basically said "Yo friend, call us for Avenger 3 and we'll pretend that nothing happened in Civil War".

And, yes, all Marvel movies are the same. Thor Ragnarok was funny, but that's it, I never was into the movie nor cared about the characters because of the Sturrue's scene at the beginning which was already too much "humour". Homecoming was funny, but since all the Marvel's are, it was nothing special. That's a problem for the genre.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Civil War was laughably bad. The conflict made no sense (neither for Iron Man nor Steve), Captain America was even more stupid than he is usually (by far, he is the least interesting Avenger for me, probably because I'm not American and he doesn't appeal to my patriotic vibe/ nostalgia), the villain was terribly over-knowledgeable for who he was (compared to Lex Luthor who had least had the means and the clout to do what he did). *Furthermore, the differences of ideologies were non-present. Iron Man fought Captain America because the two where too stupid to talk at first,* and then because Bucky had killed his mother. There was no deep plot, no reason for their battle. And the plot itself was destroyed by the phone at the end, which basically said "Yo friend, call us for Avenger 3 and we'll pretend that nothing happened in Civil War".


This isn't true. They did talk, but it was clear they had fundamental differences (as shown through Stark's treatment of Wanda). Stark was being realistic and Steve was being idealistic. There were very clear differences in ideology and it wasn't just them not talking. 

Also, Steve leaving an olive branch is completely consistent with this character. He never wanted to fight Tony, so while he disagrees with him of course that all goes away when there's an actual threat on deck. 




> And, yes, all Marvel movies are the same. Thor Ragnarok was funny, but that's it, I never was into the movie nor cared about the characters because of the Sturrue's scene at the beginning which was already too much "humour". Homecoming was funny, but since all the Marvel's are, it was nothing special. That's a problem for the genre.


This is like saying Spaceballs and the breakfast club are the same because they are both funny.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Civil War was laughably bad. The conflict made no sense (neither for Iron Man nor Steve), Captain America was even more stupid than he is usually (by far, he is the least interesting Avenger for me, probably because I'm not American and he doesn't appeal to my patriotic vibe/ nostalgia), the villain was terribly over-knowledgeable for who he was (compared to Lex Luthor who had least had the means and the clout to do what he did). Furthermore, the differences of ideologies were non-present. Iron Man fought Captain America because the two where too stupid to talk at first, and then because Bucky had killed his mother. There was no deep plot, no reason for their battle. And the plot itself was destroyed by the phone at the end, which basically said "Yo friend, call us for Avenger 3 and we'll pretend that nothing happened in Civil War".


I'm gonna have to agree with WhipWhirlwind here. For one, they did talk, as he pointed out. The differences in their ideologies were clear and the central conflict between them stemmed from both plot developments and their own interpersonal character interactions in previous MCU installments. Tony felt that, in the aftermath of Sokovia, they needed a controlling force to keep them in check. Steve did not agree and felt it to be overly restrictive on their ability to help people. And they did talk. Tony and Steve made several attempts at an amicable solution.

I don't think Captain America is at all "stupid" in these films. In fact, I think he acts the way Superman should be acting.

There was an in story explanation for Bucky killing Tony's parents. He did spend decades as a brainwashed Soviet assassin. That was kind of the whole point of Winter Soldier. And the end reveal that Bucky had been the one to assassinate the Starks was what forced Steve into a position of choosing between his old life and his new life. That was the purpose.

Why is Zero being knowledgable a problem? I mean, you do know who Zemo is in the comics, right? And in this movie, I was pretty sure they set him up as an intelligence agent.




> And, yes, all Marvel movies are the same. Thor Ragnarok was funny, but that's it, I never was into the movie nor cared about the characters because of the Sturrue's scene at the beginning which was already too much "humour". Homecoming was funny, but since all the Marvel's are, it was nothing special. That's a problem for the genre.


Again, like WhipWhirlwind says, that's basically like saying that all comedic movies (or any movies that belong to a specific genre) are the same. I've seen Bridesmaids. Does that mean I've seen Hangover as well?

----------


## Colossus1980

> Marvel does the basic minimum now. They aren't trying to innovate. They've found their formula and use it all the time. Once you've seen a Marvel movies, you've seen them all, that's what I don't like about it and why I'm terribly bored by their movies. That and their humours which I really dislike (the amount more than the tone). So far, with the exception of SS (which was terribly bad); DC movies were better for the insistence to try to be ambitious. And BvS has no true narrative flaw, only it asks the viewer to actually uses his brain a little, and people aren't used to it because of Marvel movies.


NO, NO, NO, NO!  I'm am not a MCU diehard, but there is no way to replicate a formula and expect the same box office success.  Look at Pirates.  Transformers.  War of the Planet of the Apes.  If it was that easy to stick to a formula wouldn't those studios have done the same shit to get killer box office receipts?  It's not that easy.

----------


## Buried Alien

I thought CIVIL WAR was OK, but the only thing really "innovative" about it was that it was the first time we'd seen a crowd of superheroes fight another crowd of superheroes in an American superhero movie.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I thought CIVIL WAR was OK, but the only thing really "innovative" about it was that it was the first time we'd seen a crowd of superheroes fight another crowd of superheroes in an American superhero movie.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Yeah agreed. I didn't think it was terrible but the tension felt flat for most of it.

----------


## Korath

> NO, NO, NO, NO!  I'm am not a MCU diehard, but there is no way to replicate a formula and expect the same box office success.  Look at Pirates.  Transformers.  War of the Planet of the Apes.  If it was that easy to stick to a formula wouldn't those studios have done the same shit to get killer box office receipts?  It's not that easy.


Yes they do. That's my problem. it's probably me, but I'm tired of those barely passable or mediocre MCU movies which use always the same humour, lack gravitas or aren't even advancing a larger story. We'll have to agree to disagree, because for me, liking Civil War over BvS is anathema. The first was a badly thought, developed executed and copy of the second, and Marvel has been going downhill since AoU already...

----------


## Lightning Rider

That video someone posted about bathos some pages back really summed it up well for me. But everyone remember the mod's instructions to stay on topic and not turn this into a debate about the MCU.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Guys I don't think an directors cut is likely. Remember Snyder left half way through post, so if WB didn't to cut stuff then some stuff might have been only half finished. 

Could be like SS where a lot of the cut stuff can't be put back in. 

Hope it isn't the case though.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I thought CIVIL WAR was OK, but the only thing really "innovative" about it was that it was the first time we'd seen a crowd of superheroes fight another crowd of superheroes in an American superhero movie.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


It definitely has its flaws. For me the most significant being that while I do think they do a good job of building tension leading up to the airport fight, the airport fight itself very much has a "The directors are playing with super expensive action figures" feel to it. 

And generally, I do give credit to the DCEU for trying to be a little more ambitious and not keeping things as light as the Marvel U, but I think when talking about these movies we should at least acknowledge that Marvel has managed to consistently put out narratively/structurally sound movies and DC has been very up and down on that front.

Even beyond Justice League, I'm excited to see how Aquaman fairs because for so long its just been the Snyder show.

----------


## Agent Z

> I'm gonna have to agree with WhipWhirlwind here. For one, they did talk, as he pointed out. The differences in their ideologies were clear and the central conflict between them stemmed from both plot developments and their own interpersonal character interactions in previous MCU installments. Tony felt that, in the aftermath of Sokovia, they needed a controlling force to keep them in check. Steve did not agree and felt it to be overly restrictive on their ability to help people. And they did talk. Tony and Steve made several attempts at an amicable solution.
> 
> I don't think Captain America is at all "stupid" in these films. *In fact, I think he acts the way Superman should be acting.*
> 
> There was an in story explanation for Bucky killing Tony's parents. He did spend decades as a brainwashed Soviet assassin. That was kind of the whole point of Winter Soldier. And the end reveal that Bucky had been the one to assassinate the Starks was what forced Steve into a position of choosing between his old life and his new life. That was the purpose.
> 
> Why is Zero being knowledgable a problem? I mean, you do know who Zemo is in the comics, right? And in this movie, I was pretty sure they set him up as an intelligence agent.
> 
> 
> ...



A reckless, emotionally unstable war hawk who places his entire self worth in his battle prowess while claiming to act in the public's best interest (even though he's laughably out of touch with what the public actually wants)?

If that's how Superman is supposed to act, I'll take Snyder's version any day.

----------


## Frontier

> If that's how Superman is supposed to act, I'll take Snyder's version any day.


Well, I think on paper Superman and Cap have pretty similar moralities/ideologies. 

They're both idealists. They both come from humble backgrounds. They both believe in fighting for justice and for the little guy. They won't tow to the government if they feel it's in the wrong. they both predominantly were blue. 

Of course they're portrayals in their respective cinematic universes are fairly different, but the MCU and the DCEU are very different (as fans and arguments try to attest).

----------


## Carabas

> Well, I think on paper Superman and Cap have pretty similar moralities/ideologies. 
> 
> They're both idealists. They both come from humble backgrounds. They both believe in fighting for justice and for the little guy. They won't tow to the government if they feel it's in the wrong. they both predominantly were blue.


It's been a while since I saw it, but wasn't Steve just going to give in and sign the Accords until the T'Challah got all murderous when Bucky got framed?

----------


## Bossace

So wait in the UE of BVS was that steppenwolf? Trying to figure out how that scene with lex ties into JL, cause it sure doesn’t look like wolf.

----------


## richalex

> So wait in the UE of BVS was that steppenwolf? Trying to figure out how that scene with lex ties into JL, cause it sure doesn’t look like wolf.


Yes, that was him. The helmet and mother boxes are presented.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

This interview with Mamoa really pissed me off. I completely forgot that Dafoe's Vulko was supposed to be in this movie. The development Momoa speaks off would've made Aquaman's character arc in the movie so much better.

https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...eleted-scenes/

----------


## Frontier

> It's been a while since I saw it, but wasn't Steve just going to give in and sign the Accords until the T'Challah got all murderous when Bucky got framed?


I don't think there was any point in the movie where he seemed like he would budge on his stance. 

Maybe when he was talking with Widow at Peggy's funeral, but he still seemed adamant against it.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> This interview with Mamoa really pissed me off. I completely forgot that Dafoe's Vulko was supposed to be in this movie. The development Momoa speaks off would've made Aquaman's character arc in the movie so much better.
> 
> https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...eleted-scenes/


A lot of Vic's stuff was cut. Seems since Barry's stuff was lite already they didn't cut that. 

Also feel like more Superman stuff was cut.

----------


## Frontier

> A lot of Vic's stuff was cut.* Seems since Barry's stuff was lite already they didn't cut that.* 
> 
> Also feel like more Superman stuff was cut.


Except any scenes with Iris?

----------


## robreedwrites

> It's been a while since I saw it, but wasn't Steve just going to give in and sign the Accords until the T'Challah got all murderous when Bucky got framed?


Steve almost signs when he speaks with Tony while Cap, Bucky, T'Challa, and Sam were imprisoned in Vienna. Then Tony slips about Wanda and that causes Cap to jump back to his original stance on the accords. Then Zemo makes his move and Bucky is unleashed and so Sam and Steve escape with Bucky in tow and that's when they learn about the other Winter Soldiers. Sam and Steve call in Barton, Wanda, and Lang and head to the airport to leave for Siberia and then there's that clash.

----------


## Bossace

Estimates projected down to 95 million, it has to at least break 100 million please

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Except any scenes with Iris?


Welp totally forgot about that just seems more and more stuff has being cut by the hour lol.

----------


## Doctor Know

> This interview with Mamoa really pissed me off. I completely forgot that Dafoe's Vulko was supposed to be in this movie. The development Momoa speaks off would've made Aquaman's character arc in the movie so much better.
> 
> https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...eleted-scenes/


I forgot about this too. 

Damn. Just how much did WB cut? We know studios cut films like this in order to slot more times to screen their movies. Funny, James Cameron's Avatar and all of Peter Jackson's LOTR/Hobbit movies were allowed to have nearly 3 hour run times, with no fuss. Guess this really was a Game of Dollars to WB.

And with Snyder having bowed out before reshoots and not being involved with any of the editing and sound mixing of the film. It's really more Whedon's film and things he felt were essential. 
XP

----------


## Carabas

> Steve almost signs when he speaks with Tony while Cap, Bucky, T'Challa, and Sam were imprisoned in Vienna. Then Tony slips about Wanda and that causes Cap to jump back to his original stance on the accords. Then Zemo makes his move and Bucky is unleashed and so Sam and Steve escape with Bucky in tow and that's when they learn about the other Winter Soldiers. Sam and Steve call in Barton, Wanda, and Lang and head to the airport to leave for Siberia and then there's that clash.


That's what I was thinking off.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I forgot about this too. 
> 
> Damn. Just how much did WB cut? We know studios cut films like this in order to slot more times to screen their movies. Funny, James Cameron's Avatar and all of Peter Jackson's LOTR/Hobbit movies were allowed to have nearly 3 hour run times, with no fuss. Guess this really was a Game of Dollars to WB.
> 
> And with Snyder having bowed out before reshoots and not being involved with any of the editing and sound mixing of the film. It's really more Whedon's film and things he felt were essential. 
> XP


Last year Snyder said he doesn't have the power like Cameron to say to WB 3hrs or nothing. 

Too me it seems WB has treated Snyder like a pet, he needed someway to stay(work) and he gets to live in a mansion (work on the DCEU) but has follow all orders of the master no questions asked (WB).

----------


## Johnny

> Estimates projected down to 95 million, it has to at least break 100 million please


Man, that's freaking sad.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Estimates projected down to 95 million, it has to at least break 100 million please


That’s really dissapointing. But why? The movie was decent.

----------


## Colossus1980

Not looking good in China either.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain.../#3b820ea5ffbc

Posted somewhere else that it might finish dead last for the 2017 CBM(excluding the Batman Lego movie) domestically.  I really thought JL could have a shot at 500M on the heels of Wonder Woman and with some Joss Whedon humor.  Too bad.

----------


## Frontier

Jeez, with the Rotten Tomatoes score I wasn't expecting the best but I certainly wasn't expecting it to be this bad (even in China!).

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> A reckless, emotionally unstable war hawk who places his entire self worth in his battle prowess while claiming to act in the public's best interest (even though he's laughably out of touch with what the public actually wants)?
> 
> If that's how Superman is supposed to act, I'll take Snyder's version any day.


No, a man who relishes being a hero and views it as his moral imperative as opposed to his burden.

I don’t see how we can really say that MCU Steve places his whole self worth into his battle prowess. If that were the case, his sole motivation for being a hero would be finding the next fight. But that’s never been a part of his personality. Ever. It’s clear that Steve defines himself by his moral principles. He takes it upon himself to fight for others. This is a guy who served because, in his own words, “it wasn’t right that others should sacrifice their lives while he was home safe.” And who is more concerned with being there to help people than anything else. The only time I’ve ever really seen Steve act a little selfishly was choosing Bucky over the Avengers but even then it was an understandable turn for the character. And he ended up being right about Bucky anyway.

That is what I want from Superman. A guy who doesn’t see being a hero as some sort of chore. In some parts of BvS it seemed like he was so genuinely unhappy with helping people. That’s not the Superman I know.

----------


## Badou

> That’s really dissapointing. But why? The movie was decent.


Perception is one of the most difficult things to change once it is established, and it seems like the "DC movies aren't good" is firmly rooted in the minds of a lot of the public. That is such a strong narrative now. 

I think Wonder Woman was a bit of an aberration because it had the momentum of being the first modern solo female superhero movie, but it seems the goodwill from that didn't not carry over here.

----------


## Styles

Zack Snyder Apparently Hasn't Seen 'Justice League' Yet

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

It’s now tracking to make less than 100 million. This is bad.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Estimates projected down to 95 million, it has to at least break 100 million please


That is certainly upsetting. Justice League should be setting the world on fire.

----------


## Frontier

I guess it's all up to _Aquaman_ now...

----------


## Bossace

Maybe the thanksgiving holiday will do this movie.... justice. Assuming coco doesn’t steal the show and pass them 2nd weekend

----------


## Doctor Know

The film has only been out 24 hours (since 6pm Thursday) in the US. It's already made $13 million Thursday night alone. 

Guess it's up to us to get the word out and tell and take as many of our friends, family and coworkers about the film and to go see it.


DC films have never done stellar business in China. Star Wars hasn't captured the Chinese audience imagination either. The MCU, XCU, Fast and the Furious, Jurassic World, Transformers and Warcraft movies all did/do stellar business in China. I wonder what's the deal?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I guess it's all up to _Aquaman_ now...


It’s actually ironic. For decades, Wonder Woman and Aquaman had reputations for being the “lame” characters of the DCU among the general audience (of course people like us knew better but still). And now, we’ve pinned all our hopes for a cinematic universe on their films being good.

----------


## Frontier

So what happened? 

Was it WB cutting too much of the movie like they did BvS? 

Was it Snyder's name still being attached to it?

Was it conflict between Snyder's vision and what Whedon was brought in to do?  

Was it Rotten Tomatoes (and, by extension, the critics)?

Was it people just being averse to DC movies?

Or all of the above?

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> So what happened? 
> 
> Was it WB cutting too much of the movie like they did BvS? 
> 
> Was it Snyder's name still being attached to it?
> 
> Was it conflict between Snyder's vision and what Whedon was brought in to do?  
> 
> Was it Rotten Tomatoes (and, by extension, the critics)?
> ...


All of the above, to varying degrees though.

The critical response played the smallest role, as the film's projection dropped from 110+ to 90+, since the reviews started coming it. Despite the drop, the vast majority of people that were going to see it on opening weekend are still going to go see the movie.

----------


## Carabas

> So what happened? 
> 
> Was it WB cutting too much of the movie like they did BvS? 
> 
> Was it Snyder's name still being attached to it?
> 
> Was it conflict between Snyder's vision and what Whedon was brought in to do?  
> 
> Was it Rotten Tomatoes (and, by extension, the critics)?
> ...


All of the above, except the Rotten Tomatoes one.
Although the Whedon one and the WB cuts one are essentially the same reason: WB meddling.

----------


## Colossus1980

Batman VS Superman should have been Epic.

Justice League should have been Epic.

I thought Gal Gadot would have saved JL.  I thought the Whedon reshoots were mainly about WW with dashes of humor.

I can't believe Suicide Squad destroyed the JL.  Unbelievable.

----------


## Nite-Wing

The film could never survive Whedon directing it and basically making the Justice League into his own version of the Avengers.
DC has popular characters the solo movies so far seem to be their best bet going forward.
A team movie like Suicide Squad is fine but a movie like Justice League should have a proper lead up to it, no time should be wasted introducing new characters etc 

Also the CGI was really bad this movie. Even a random shot of Superman looks terrible and wooden due to all the cgi now present around the character.

----------


## Colossus1980

Will this make Affleck give up the mantle of the Bat?

----------


## Serpico Jones

You’ll never see Affleck as Batman again. Zack Snyder also will probably never be allowed to step foot onto the Warner Brothers lot for the rest of his life.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> A team movie like Suicide Squad is fine but a movie like Justice League should have a proper lead up to it, no time should be wasted introducing new characters etc


I thought that it was even too soon for a Suicide Squad movie. I mean, think about it. That entire concept rests on the idea of heroes having been around for a while and having built up respective rogues galleries so that those villains could be on the team. Except, we hadn't even gotten to know the heroes of the DCEU before that. There hadn't been any sort of Batman movie and we didn't even see Flash before we met Captain Cold.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The film could never survive Whedon directing it and basically making the Justice League into his own version of the Avengers.
> DC has popular characters the solo movies so far seem to be their best bet going forward.
> A team movie like Suicide Squad is fine but a movie like Justice League should have a proper lead up to it, no time should be wasted introducing new characters etc 
> 
> Also the CGI was really bad this movie. Even a random shot of Superman looks terrible and wooden due to all the cgi now present around the character.


Sadly I have seen jokes about how JL's plot mirrors Avengers the world's leasing superhero team unites against a alien god with an CGI army working for an even more powerful alien with cube McGuffins.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Im GOIN IN

----------


## manofsteel1979

> So what happened? 
> 
> Was it WB cutting too much of the movie like they did BvS? 
> 
> Was it Snyder's name still being attached to it?
> 
> Was it conflict between Snyder's vision and what Whedon was brought in to do?  
> 
> Was it Rotten Tomatoes (and, by extension, the critics)?
> ...


All of the above. Plus it is in direct competition with Devil's An...Erm, Ragnarok which is just a viral sensation that likely won't lose momentum until the Last Jedi. 

Honestly, when Zack left the project, they should have delayed JL to after the holidays to more fully reshoot and complete it, either to allow Snyder to return or let Whedon smooth over the rough edges more. Plus allow it to play against less competition.

 And it's a brand thing too. Marvel is where the cool kids sit I guess. DC is more for the nerds maybe?

I mean I have been hard on Ragnarok. It deserves to be called on some of it's crap. It's an entertaining farce comedy with a few comics Easter eggs and cool visuals thrown in, but upon further scrutiny, it ain't a Thor Movie really  It's barely a comic book movie. It's a sci Fi farce that people for whatever reason have embraced. JL to me is a far more enjoyable movie and felt like a comic and even with the tonal shift from BvS,has consistent characterization with what came before and feels like it's source material. Yet, the GA seems to not be embracing it.Which is a shame frankly. It is what it is I guess.

I think as comic book fans we led ourselves to believe that the whole abundance of comic book movies the last few years mean the general public has embraced comics themselves. I don't think that's the case really. It's just that Marvel has successfully found a formula that takes the surface elements of these characters and visual cues and Easter eggs for us geeks, but they don't really make comic book movies. With a few notable exceptions ( Most of Marvel's phase one movies and Winter Soldier) They make safe, mainstream sci-fi Action comedies that utilize comic book trappings for the most part. Which is fine for what it is. It's made them money and created a brand that honestly is hard to overcome.

I just think WB needs to accept that they will never top the Marvel brand and that type of movie. Doesn't mean they should abandon the shared universe for these characters but they need to change their expectations. Not every film DC does have to be 300 million dollar 3 hour epics cut to ribbons in post. Keep budgets lower so your movies don't have to set records and compete with the big M and it's mouse overlords. Be smarter. Make a good WW sequel, a good stand alone Superman movie for less than 200 million. Offer a viable alternative to Marvel's increasing vapidity. Build a brand identity. Don't try to out do Marvel at their own game. Start a game of your own.

Honestly, the state of the DCEU at the end of JL is a perfect launch point to effectively recalibrate and start over. Most plot threads are resolved. It's shifting away from Snyder's niche approach. Just focus on some solid stand alones and build the brand up. No need to abandon everything or retcon stuff. Just make some good Smarter choices and utilize what's good and not dwell on past missteps.

----------


## Robotman

Tracking for under 100 mil? What the hell happened?!? I guess the DCEU Snyderverse brand has become more toxic than anyone imagined. Wonder Woman showed that they can have success with the stand alone films so at least theres that. I think this will force them to go full speed ahead with Flashpoint. Which will result in a soft reboot of the DCEU. But Flashpoint itself is a super bleak story that would actually fit right in with the Snyderverse. So maybe they should do a Flash movie that’s more fun. Just adapt a Mark Waid story or something. Affleck is definitely not coming back to play Batman in the Reeves film. The people who love the Snyder era can always look back on the films fondly but the fact that his style divided the fanbase and brought critical panning just caused too much damage. 
Aquaman should be awesome and they still have Shazam and Wonder Woman 2. So the DCEU isn’t dead but this is a huge blow.

----------


## Johnny

Honest question, anyone believes the DCEU's overall slate could go into developmental hell if JL performs "this" bad? I mean obviously they would do a WW sequel, Aquaman is in post-production and I'm guessing Shazam would get made too, but as far as everything else goes that's not in active development or just has a writer attached to it? What's your prognosis?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Honest question, anyone believes the DCEU's overall state could go into developmental hell if JL performs "this" bad? I mean obviously they would do a WW sequel, Aquaman is in post-production and I'm guessing Shazam would get made too, but as far as everything else goes that's not in active development or just has a writer attached to it? What's your prognosis?


Aquaman is in post I think WW sequel, SS sequel, Matt Reeves' Batman, Shazam, Flashpoint given Flash's positive response are all locks everything else I'll believe when filming starts that's just my opinion.

----------


## Robotman

> Honest question, anyone believes the DCEU's overall state could go into developmental hell if JL performs "this" bad? I mean obviously they would do a WW sequel, Aquaman is in post-production and I'm guessing Shazam would get made too, but as far as everything else goes that's not in active development or just has a writer attached to it? What's your prognosis?


I don’t see them going ahead with Deathstroke or other lesser known characters unless they can pull them off with a shoestring budget. Something along the line of Deadpool’s budget, which was only $58 million. That’s incredibly cheap in this day and age.

----------


## robreedwrites

> All of the above. Plus it is in direct competition with Devil's An...Erm, Ragnarok which is just a viral sensation that likely won't lose momentum until the Last Jedi. 
> 
> Honestly, when Zack left the project, they should have delayed JL to after the holidays to more fully reshoot and complete it, either to allow Snyder to return or let Whedon smooth over the rough edges more. Plus allow it to play against less competition.


I agree. When Snyder left, I thought WB might have put JL into March of 2018 which is where The Flash had once been scheduled. That feels like ages ago.




> And it's a brand thing too. Marvel is where the cool kids sit I guess. DC is more for the nerds maybe?
> 
> I mean I have been hard on Ragnarok. It deserves to be called on some of it's crap. It's an entertaining farce comedy with a few comics Easter eggs and cool visuals thrown in, but upon further scrutiny, it ain't a Thor Movie really  It's barely a comic book movie. It's a sci Fi farce that people for whatever reason have embraced. JL to me is a far more enjoyable movie and felt like a comic and even with the tonal shift from BvS,has consistent characterization with what came before and feels like it's source material. Yet, the GA seems to not be embracing it.Which is a shame frankly. It is what it is I guess.


I agree about Ragnarok being a farce, but I think it's a well made farce and that's why critics liked it. Especially after the tonally inconsistent and forgettable Thor: The Dark World.




> I think as comic book fans we led ourselves to believe that the whole abundance of comic book movies the last few years mean the general public has embraced comics themselves. I don't think that's the case really. It's just that Marvel has successfully found a formula that takes the surface elements of these characters and visual cues and Easter eggs for us geeks, but they don't really make comic book movies. With a few notable exceptions ( Most of Marvel's phase one movies and Winter Soldier) They make safe, mainstream sci-fi Action comedies that utilize comic book trappings for the most part. Which is fine for what it is. It's made them money and created a brand that honestly is hard to overcome.


I think this might be oversimplifying it. Logan, Wonder Woman, Captain America: Civil War, and Doctor Strange all made good amounts of money. Doctor Strange certainly has it's comedic moments, but I don't think it's as easily labeled as an action-comedy as Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Spider-Man: Homecoming, and Thor: Ragnarok are.




> I just think WB needs to accept that they will never top the Marvel brand and that type of movie. Doesn't mean they should abandon the shared universe for these characters but they need to change their expectations. Not every film DC does have to be 300 million dollar 3 hour epics cut to ribbons in post. Keep budgets lower so your movies don't have to set records and compete with the big M and it's mouse overlords. Be smarter. Make a good WW sequel, a good stand alone Superman movie for less than 200 million. Offer a viable alternative to Marvel's increasing vapidity. Build a brand identity. Don't try to out do Marvel at their own game. Start a game of your own.
> 
> Honestly, the state of the DCEU at the end of JL is a perfect launch point to effectively recalibrate and start over. Most plot threads are resolved. It's shifting away from Snyder's niche approach. Just focus on some solid stand alones and build the brand up. No need to abandon everything or retcon stuff. Just make some good Smarter choices and utilize what's good and not dwell on past missteps.


I agree. While I don't think BvS or SS are good films, hacking away at them is only hurting them more. I personally don't like Snyder's work much, but if you're going to go with him as the captain of the ship you can't keep trying to make him fit Marvel's mold and that really applies to any director they bring on. One of the things I'm hearing repeatedly from critics and fans alike on Justice League (haven't seen it myself, going tomorrow) is that the seams show and there's not a lot of connective tissue between scenes thanks to them cutting it down under two hours. If that's true, they might have been better going for 2 hours and 10-15 minutes or so to let what they were keeping breathe better. Might have led to a better reception.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Tracking for under 100 mil? What the hell happened?!? I guess the DCEU Snyderverse brand has become more toxic than anyone imagined. Wonder Woman showed that they can have success with the stand alone films so at least theres that. I think this will force them to go full speed ahead with Flashpoint. Which will result in a soft reboot of the DCEU. But Flashpoint itself is a super bleak story that would actually fit right in with the Snyderverse. So maybe they should do a Flash movie thats more fun. Just adapt a Mark Waid story or something. Affleck is definitely not coming back to play Batman in the Reeves film. The people who love the Snyder era can always look back on the films fondly but the fact that his style divided the fanbase and brought critical panning just caused too much damage. 
> Aquaman should be awesome and they still have Shazam and Wonder Woman 2. So the DCEU isnt dead but this is a huge blow.


If all this damage is going to happen to the box office of JL the Snyderverse wasn't worth it. Everything was rushed to this point that it seems the DCEU doesn't even have a narrative. If the low tracking happens this is effing embarrassing. WB needs to clean house. All the budget in the DCEU should just go to animation and the upcoming streaming shows. Aquaman looks too be a saving grace but man this is just unbelievable. Not too mention the stupid movies being announced and keeping Ayer on Gotham Sirens....ugh.

----------


## Jokerz79

Truth now having seen Justice League it's good not great but good now I also thought Thor Ragnarok was good which would I see again sooner? Thor Ragnarok I just had more fun and I think that is why critics were lenient on it.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Honest question, anyone believes the DCEU's overall slate could go into developmental hell if JL performs "this" bad? I mean obviously they would do a WW sequel, Aquaman is in post-production and I'm guessing Shazam would get made too, but as far as everything else goes that's not in active development or just has a writer attached to it? What's your prognosis?


They have a total of 19 films on the go or planned.  Way too many.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Extended_Universe

----------


## Doctor Know

Posted this before, but it bears repeating.

It's up to us to get the word out and tell and take as many of our friends, family and coworkers about the film and to go see it.


If JL can pull WW, Deadpool or Avengers numbers domestically and if it's legs hold internationally, I think the DCEU can endure.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Posted this before, but it bears repeating.
> 
> It's up to us to get the word out and tell and take as many of our friends, family and coworkers about the film and to go see it.
> 
> 
> If JL can pull WW, Deadpool or Avengers numbers domestically and if it's legs hold internationally, I think the DCEU can endure.


I'm gonna do my part. I'm going to see it again Monday evening. I would see it again this weekend but I work all weekend pretty much.

I don't think Avengers numbers are possible but WW or Deadpool is doable.

If it gets WW numbers domestically, it would be ok. Not great. It should be doing Ragnarok numbers but it ain't happening.

----------


## Badou

> Honest question, anyone believes the DCEU's overall slate could go into developmental hell if JL performs "this" bad? I mean obviously they would do a WW sequel, Aquaman is in post-production and I'm guessing Shazam would get made too, but as far as everything else goes that's not in active development or just has a writer attached to it? What's your prognosis?


Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman are going to be the focus of the DCEU given they seem to be the two characters they are fast tracking into getting moves out for. I have no idea what they are going to do with Superman, but if these tracking numbers are legit then there is no way Ben comes back to play Batman. They are going to cast a new, probably younger Batman, and probably start from scratch with the Reeves' Batman movies. Then try to slowly build back up the Batman brand and expand with that being the base. Stuff like Batgirl and Nightwing might get put on hold though.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I'm gonna do my part. I'm going to see it again Monday evening. I would see it again this weekend but I work all weekend pretty much.
> 
> I don't think Avengers numbers are possible but WW or Deadpool is doable.
> 
> If it gets WW numbers domestically, it would be ok. Not great. It should be doing Ragnarok numbers but it ain't happening.


I count Cap 3 as an Avenges movie. $400 million domestic would be a good sign to keep the train going. 

I have 16 hour shifts today and tomorrow, but I'm going with a group Sunday. I've also got the word out on my Instagram and Facebook. Spreading the gospel of JL, like Glorious Godfrey!

----------


## AquaLantern

Went in and loved the JL movie. I don’t get critics. It’s too complicated, it’s too simple. make up your minds already. People are saying that DCEU are never be Marvel and they should start from scratch. Why so critics can suck up more to Marvel and make the comparisons even more harse than they are now? Also having WB going back to the drawing board runs the risk of running back to the safe space of the Bat cave.

I’ve seen every DCEU film and enjoyed them regardless of the “flaws” but I’m not going on the hate bandwagon to follow the crowd.

----------


## Bossace

I wanted to like this film more than I did, the nods here and there were fun, the choppiness felt horrible, and I feel the final battle ended way too quickly and became stupidly one sided specifically one person exactly really quick which made the weight of wolf just drop. Barry quipped a bit too much for me, give me more calmed down flash. I felt they should have switched the post credit scenes too. Enjoyed Wonder Woman, not so much the will they won’t they lingering of her and Bruce. Cyborg felt cold most of the movie which I wanted more liveliness though I did get the one thing I wanted from him most. And not sure how I feel of Aquaman being a total Bro. Ugh not a fun ride for me and I was really excited for this. And the fact that it might not even do 100 mil which could cause chaos for the late movies scares me, I’m starting to think Coco could dethrone JL next week now.

Really wish we had a spoilers thread to more openly discuss this

----------


## Troian

Holy crap this thing may not even break MoS domestically.

Honestly, I blame it on WB for being greedy and Zack Snyder for being both cocky and using neopotism to get ahead. His wife has connections with WB lol. WB is suffering for rushing a universe of films and Zack Snyder tbh kind of needs to be humbled. This man was trash talking Marvel yet he has several times failed to reach a 2x weekend multiplier and has a consistent record of not making films that critics like and general audiences tend to have a love/hate relationship with. Then they hire a writer who has a mixed opinion on superheroes.. Sigh.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

WB gambled way too big on Batman v Superman. It was bad plan from the get-go to rush a universe essentially in that one movie, but once it was as critically panned as it was, the universe was nearly doomed. The only way Justice League could have been welcomed critically and at the box office the way we all wanted and hoped for, was if Batman v Superman set the world on fire, or, in the aftermath of its failings WB put a much different director on Justice League. Instead, they dug in. And now they're paying for it.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Wish everyone felt this way:

"Screw the Critics: Justice League is the DCEU we've been waiting for"

----------


## Doctor Know

How does the RT tomato meter work?

Justice League as a total of 228 reviews submitted. 

138 are Rotten

90 are Fresh

Simple case of division and you get 90/138 = .65217

Multiply .65217 by 100 and you get 65%.

However, JL is currently sitting at 39%.


Odd

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> How does the RT tomato meter work?
> 
> Justice League as a total of 228 reviews submitted. 
> 
> 138 are Rotten
> 
> 90 are Fresh
> 
> Simple case of division and you get 90/138 = .65217
> ...


Holy hell. You divide the positive reviews from the TOTAL NUMBER OF REVIEWS. 

90 divided by 228 = 39.4 percent

----------


## Doctor Know

> Holy hell. You divide the positive reviews from the TOTAL NUMBER OF REVIEWS. 
> 
> 90 divided by 228 = 39.4 percent


Well, excuse me princess. Simple mistake. 

Derp moment on my part.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Well, excuse me princess. Simple mistake. 
> 
> Derp moment on my part.


No need for "princess." You can call me Mr. Can Do Simple Division. Thanks.

----------


## Doctor Know

> No need for "princess." You can call me Mr. Can Do Simple Division. Thanks.


I think it's time for your flea bath.  :Cool:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The box office news is a pretty major blow to the DCEU. Wonder Woman 2 being a guarantee is a comfort, as is Aquaman already being in production. If this thing is as underwhelming as some claim, I personally don't care if we get another JL film as long as we get some good solos. I will be majorly pissed if we don't get another Superman solo with Cavill (under a different director obviously). 

So far of the DCEU films, the most solid have been the two solos that received the smallest amount of executive meddling (WW, and even though it was divisive, MOS which I still really like). The former has the highest RT rating. I think JL was going to be meddled with no matter what, so lessons learned from WW/Jenkins' success weren't going to be learned in time. I hope they leave Wan alone and let him do his thing. I thankfully can't see them messing with Patty during WW2.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The box office news is a pretty major blow to the DCEU. Wonder Woman 2 being a guarantee is a comfort, as is Aquaman already being in production. If this thing is as underwhelming as some claim, I personally don't care if we get another JL film as long as we get some good solos. I will be majorly pissed if we don't get another Superman solo with Cavill (under a different director obviously). 
> 
> So far of the DCEU films, the most solid have been the two solos that received the smallest amount of executive meddling (WW, and even though it was divisive, MOS which I still really like). The former has the highest RT rating. I think JL was going to be meddled with no matter what, so lessons learned from WW/Jenkins' success weren't going to be learned in time. I hope they leave Wan alone and let him do his thing. I thankfully can't see them messing with Patty during WW2.


To me, this is the fundamental concern right now. I think we just received the last Justice League movie we're going to get in a long, long time, and with this DCEU. Also, and this hurts me to say it as Superman is why I love comics and we finally got a great version of him, I don't think there is any way they do another Cavill Superman. It costs a lot and Justice League will scare them out of big budgets with proven mediocre results now. This blows. 

WB gambled way too big on Batman v Superman. It was bad plan from the get-go to rush a universe essentially in that one movie, but once it was as critically panned as it was, the universe was nearly doomed. The only way Justice League could have been welcomed critically and at the box office the way we all wanted and hoped for, was if Batman v Superman set the world on fire, or, in the aftermath of its failings WB put a much different director on Justice League. Instead, they dug in. And now they're paying for it.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Wish everyone felt this way:
> 
> "Screw the Critics: Justice League is the DCEU we've been waiting for"


Good piece.

It's best hope is those of us who have seen it to spread the word as best we can. If it can gain better legs than BvS and make money over time it has a chance.

It would be a shame to let this DCU go away because of closed mindness from critics .

----------


## DragonPiece

The box office news is pretty bad and worrying, especially because we saw how much WB changed after the bad response to BVS(and that was before suicide squad even bombed.) I hope they continue to let Geoff Johns and Jon Berg work on these movies, because obviously WW worked, which is what Geoff had more of a role in. And honestly, this will sound harsh, but I am placing the blame on Snyder,WB and Whedon. Snyder, because he was still going to do the evil superman route in this movie(almost everything with Superman was reshot by Whedon),WB because they forced mandates on the movie and Whedon because he couldn't edit the movie right and do proper CGI.


Also, I still haven't seen the movie and won't till tomorrow afternoon, I'm just basing this on what I'm hearing.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Wish everyone felt this way:
> 
> "Screw the Critics: Justice League is the DCEU we've been waiting for"


I can't agree with this there are legitimate issues with the film nothing that makes it unwatchble but IMO it's far from "great" it's good.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> So what happened? 
> 
> Was it WB cutting too much of the movie like they did BvS? 
> 
> Was it Snyder's name still being attached to it?
> 
> Was it conflict between Snyder's vision and what Whedon was brought in to do?  
> 
> Was it Rotten Tomatoes (and, by extension, the critics)?
> ...



All of it and more.

Timing-you toss out this after THOR. Some folks are going to be BURNED OUT on those movies. And with the Thanksgiving Break next week-who is going to run to see this when you "better choices" out there?

And don't forget you got something called STAR WARS coming next month on PAYDAY. And lets not forget some are waiting till that movie with the guy in a cat suit come out. All the attention this film could have gotten-3 Disney products took away.

Maybe this should have been done AFTER you establish everyone like Marvel did before Avengers.

I also think for too many expectations were too high. This "we gotta beat Marvel" crap has to STOP. 





> Guess it's up to us to get the word out and tell and take as many of our friends, family and coworkers about the film and to go see it.


It's not your job to do that. If the studio can not put together a film to get interest-that falls on THEM.

Reality has to kick in that not everybody cares about the JL. Yes that is blasphemy to say but it's reality.

Let it FLOP-maybe a message will be FINALLY sent.

Maybe it's time to let Batman & Superman rest.

Maybe it's time to lower the budgets and look at Booster Gold, Firestorm, Vixen, Atom, Green Arrow and so on as films.

Maybe it's time to look at WIldstorm & Milestone as films.

Maybe it time to look at what Marvel is doing and SEE who they are not going after and go after them.

----------


## Jokerz79

Critics aren't to blame for the DCEU failings it's WB. The films with low scoring were all heavily messed with in production by WB. WW wasn't and did great and MoS was a divisive interpretation of Superman and it's critic score reflected that. Honestly most non comic book fans I know like the MCU movies because they are fun and the critics seem to be the same. Most non comic book people I know didn't hate BvS but they also didn't enjoy it or have fun and thus had little interest in seeing it again. If critics had this magic powers to destroy films with their Rotten Tomatoes scores we wouldn't have 5 Transformers Films or Happy Madison Productions Films.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> Wish everyone felt this way:
> 
> "Screw the Critics: Justice League is the DCEU we've been waiting for"

----------


## Jokerz79

I will say it is a little disappointing the MCU has Black Panther, Avengers Infinity War, and Ant-Man and the Wasp and Fox Marvel has Deadpool 2, New Mutants, and X-Men Dark Phoenix all before we get another DCEU film.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Critics aren't to blame for the DCEU failings it's WB. The films with low scoring were all heavily messed with in production by WB. WW wasn't and did great and MoS was a divisive interpretation of Superman and it's critic score reflected that. Honestly most non comic book fans I know like the MCU movies because they are fun and the critics seem to be the same. Most non comic book people I know didn't hate BvS but they also didn't enjoy it or have fun and thus had little interest in seeing it again. If critics had this magic powers to destroy films with their Rotten Tomatoes scores we wouldn't have 5 Transformers Films or Happy Madison Productions Films.


To me, while the films were messed with and I hate that, we have to recognize that with Zack Snyder, there is at least the chance that his films at the time of meddling, were probably bad and the studio felt they had to intervene. I completely agree with you that this is on WB, but I think their greatest sin is allowing Deborah Snyder to abuse power and keep Zack at the helm. Somebody who has a style that is consistently divisive, shouldn't be put in charge of properties that everyone should love. 

SIMPLE. 

AS. 

THAT.

So yeah, WB...this is on you.

----------


## nightw1ng

I must admit, I am genuinely surprised Justice League won't even surpass Wonder Woman's opening box office. Her movie was a genuine hit and she's a main character in this new film. I guess the general audience's poor view of the DCEU negated any new fans she garnered.

----------


## Jokerz79

> To me, while the films were messed with and I hate that, we have to recognize that with Zack Snyder, there is at least the chance that his films at the time of meddling, were probably bad and the studio felt they had to intervene. I completely agree with you that this is on WB, but I think their greatest sin is allowing Deborah Snyder to abuse power and keep Zack at the helm. Somebody who has a style that is consistently divisive, shouldn't be put in charge of properties that everyone should love. 
> 
> SIMPLE. 
> 
> AS. 
> 
> THAT.
> 
> So yeah, WB...this is on you.


That's my biggest grip with the DCEU set your guild lines when hiring the director but then trust them and let the chips fall where they fall. I mean even with being longer I truly believe WB lost money by not releasing Snyder's Ultimate Cut of BvS over the theatrical cut to theaters.

I found the theatrical cut a mess but quite enjoyed the Ultimate Cut.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That's my biggest grip with the DCEU set your guild lines when hiring the director but then trust them and let the chips fall where they fall. I mean even with being longer I truly believe WB lost money by not releasing Snyder's Ultimate Cut of BvS over the theatrical cut to theaters.


Probably. But his concept for the first ever Batman & Superman mash up on screen was a losing concept. At the end of the day, even if it made more money with his cut, it would have still been divisive at the very start of the universe. It needed to be loved. And Snyder failed at the concept stage. THAT's when WB should have meddled. But they suck at this. That much is clear. They suck. My hope is that AT&T comes in here and lets Johns do his thing and supports the universe with backing to do another JL and Superman. But I think that's a Hail Mary at best now.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

If the DECEU  is cancelled thanks to the vitriolic hate of the critics, im not supporting any MCU  movie indeed,

It will be years until this obvious bias is gone

----------


## TheSeaDragon

you know, im not gettin a bue ring because i dont have any hopes at all. Maybe DC  character are just dated, and Marvel is the cool shit.

Even  here, a place with supossed DC fans, everyone wants it to fail

----------


## Bossace

> If the DECEU  is cancelled thanks to the vitriolic hate of the critics, im not supporting any MCU  movie indeed,
> 
> It will be years until this obvious bias is gone


This is in no way the critics fault period, look at the people who worked on the movie and WB, the movie was a damn mess I saw it today and have been looking forward to this movie so much.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> This is in no way the critics fault period, look at the people who worked on the movie and WB, the movie was a damn mess I saw it today and have been looking forward to this movie so much.



nope you wanted it to fail , like so much people here

----------


## YoshioKST

> If critics had this magic powers to destroy films with their Rotten Tomatoes scores we wouldn't have 5 Transformers Films or Happy Madison Productions Films.


I kinda have to disagree, there's a difference between people going to the movies expecting visual noise they won't commit to, and people going to watch a shared universe they're ready to commit to.

----------


## DieHard200904

I will get JL a shot when "hell week" is done at work.  At worst, it's a mediocre action film, but at least it does offer the end of a trilogy in some ways, and I can't quite resist that.

----------


## Bossace

> nope you wanted it to fail , like so much people here


I wanted this movie to succeed I want a successful DCEU, I’m now worried this movie is going to screw up movies I want like the flash

----------


## TheSeaDragon

Sad age when people give up their own mind and are obsessed witth a score instead of judge i by themselves

Maybe he DCE  is done Im sure all you guys are happy

----------


## AquaLantern

> Wish everyone felt this way:
> 
> "Screw the Critics: Justice League is the DCEU we've been waiting for"


Same. Also we're back at the editing/pacing nitpick. Gotta say that's a load of crap since this is the 3rd film to get that criticism and had no problems following the movie.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> I wanted this movie to succeed I want a successful DCEU, I’m now worried this movie is going to screw up movies I want like the flash




don worry, you still have he MCU, is so flawless and glorious that we dont  need any movie of these oudated DC  characters.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> don worry, you still have he MCU, is so flawless and glorious that we dont have any movie of these oudated DC  characters.


Take a lap, man. You're so angry or drunk that you're either killing keys on your computer or incapable of formulating coherent sentences. We're all upset that this isn't the loved film we wanted it to be. But this too shall pass.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Take a lap, man. You're so angry or drunk that you're either killing keys on your computer or incapable of formulating coherent sentences. We're all upset that this isn't the loved film we wanted it to be. But this too shall pass.



Sorry,  stupid keyboard

Lol, you wanted it to be liked, suure.

----------


## Jokerz79

> you know, im not gettin a bue ring because i dont have any hopes at all. Maybe DC  character are just dated, and Marvel is the cool shit.
> 
> Even  here, a place with supossed DC fans, everyone wants it to fail


I want it to succeed but I'm also not willing to put on my tin hat and blame critics for it failures. I mean for god sake's WB/Time Warner owns 30% of Rotten Tomatoes.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I want it to succeed but I'm also not willing to put on my tin hat and blame critics for it failures. I mean for god sake's WB/Time Warner owns 30% of Rotten Tomatoes.


Ignore him. He's upset like all of us but having a harder time coping.

----------


## Assam

> Lol, you wanted it to be liked, suure.


See, while I don't let it cloud my judgement on these films (See: I liked Wonder Woman), I admit at least a part of me has been actually has been actively rooting against the DCEU since the Whedon Batgirl was announced. I _really_ don't want that film to get made. And right now, I think I may get my wish. Aquaman is in Post, Wonder Woman 2 and Suicide Squad 2 are gonna get made, but I'll believe any of the others are getting made when I see a poster.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Ignore him. He's upset like all of us but having a harder time coping.


you guys are happy 

Also, close  this  thread , DCEU is done, DC  a whole will be always   the red step child  of comics . Marvel is the cool shit, nothing we can do

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> See, while I don't let it cloud my judgement on these films (See: I liked Wonder Woman), I admit at least a part of me has been actually has been actively rooting against the DCEU since the Whedon Batgirl was announced. I _really_ don't want that film to get made. And right now, I think I may get my wish. Aquaman is in Post, Wonder Woman 2 and Suicide Squad 2 are gonna get made, but I'll believe any of the others are getting made when I see a poster.


you will no see cass cain outside of comics never, indeed Hope you are happy and enjoy Marvel movies.

----------


## Johnny

You guys can recognize a troll for what it is, right? Ignore it.

----------


## Assam

> you will no see cass cain outside of comics never, indeed Hope you are happy and enjoy Marvel movies.


Eh, if Steph can make it into YJ, Cass will get onto TV eventually, obviously not the big screen though. My primary reason for not wanting the movie to be made is because I've gotten to a point where seeing Babsgirl  honestly makes me feel ill and if this movie actually happened, I wouldn't be able to go f**king outside.

----------


## Assam

> You guys can recognize a troll for what it is, right? Ignore it.


Obviously a troll, yeah. I'll stop replying whenever they stop or I get bored, whatever comes first.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Eh, if Steph can make it into YJ, Cass will get onto TV eventually, obviously not the big screen though. My primary reason for not wanting the movie to be made is because I've gotten to a point where seeing Babsgirl  honestly makes me feel ill and if this movie actually happened, I wouldn't be able to go f**king outside.




you re really petty. Thank god you are not in charge , first ting you would do is have the Joker cripple babs again, or maybe kill her

----------


## nightrider

i don't know how badly its going to affect DCEU plans but if the movie gets $1billion, I'm pretty sure nothing is going to change, so my guess is stop whining and start watching.

----------


## Assam

> you re really petty. Thank god you are not in charge , first ting you would do is have the Joker cripple babs again, or maybe kill her


I am petty. But not stupid. Wouldn't do either of those things.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

for the record, im not a  troll,  im just sad that my fav comics universe, DC, will always play second everywhere and people apparently enjoys it because that makes them feel they where right.. :Frown:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> i don't know how badly its going to affect DCEU plans but if the movie gets $1billion, I'm pretty sure nothing is going to change, so my guess is stop whining and start watching.


Uhh...it's tracking to finish behind Man of Steel.

----------


## Jokerz79

> you guys are happy 
> 
> Also, close  this  thread , DCEU is done, DC  a whole will be always   the red step child  of comics . Marvel is the cool shit, nothing we can do


There is still Aquaman and Wonder Woman is a lock and I'd say so is Reeve's Batman, Shazam, Suicide Squad, and given his reception Flashpoint are also all going to happen IMO. What the DCEU will look like going forward and what films past those will happen. Truth is while that dreaded MCU is making money there is no way WB won't want a piece of that pie no matter how many licks they get.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Uhh...it's tracking to finish behind Man of Steel.



and you are totally  enjoyin it, right  :Frown:

----------


## Jokerz79

> for the record, im not a  troll,  im just sad that my fav comics universe, DC, will always play second everywhere and people apparently enjoys it because that makes them feel they where right..


Except it doesn't play second everywhere the comics are killing it, The CW shows are doing so well they keep adding to them and there is Gotham on Fox and the upcoming Krypton. Not to mention their animation, games, and even films Wonder Woman did well across the board as did the Nolan trilogy which only ended 5 years ago. 

3 films BvS, Suicide Squad, and now Justice League didn't do well critically but all made money I don't see why all the doom and gloom could things be better? Of course but honestly it's not a bad time to be a DC fan.

----------


## Agent Z

> No, a man who relishes being a hero and views it as his moral imperative as opposed to his burden.
> 
> I dont see how we can really say that MCU Steve places his whole self worth into his battle prowess. If that were the case, his sole motivation for being a hero would be finding the next fight. But thats never been a part of his personality. Ever. Its clear that Steve defines himself by his moral principles. He takes it upon himself to fight for others. This is a guy who served because, in his own words, it wasnt right that others should sacrifice their lives while he was home safe. And who is more concerned with being there to help people than anything else. The only time Ive ever really seen Steve act a little selfishly was choosing Bucky over the Avengers but even then it was an understandable turn for the character. And he ended up being right about Bucky anyway.
> 
> That is what I want from Superman. A guy who doesnt see being a hero as some sort of chore. In some parts of BvS it seemed like he was so genuinely unhappy with helping people. Thats not the Superman I know.


It's been flat out stated that the reason Steve continued being Captain America was because he could adapt to civilian life. This is made clear in the vision Wanda hits him with in AoU. Before that his very first movie shows a total disregard for laws by repeatedly trying to con his way into the army despite his health issues making him a liability and risking the life of a non combatant in an unsanctioned rescue mission. These are not the actions of a hero but of a person who plain does not give a damn about anything else than his own gratification. Civil War takes this up to eleven with him repeatedly refusing to even consider the Accords after one of his missions ended disastrously, assaulting police officers and lying to Tony about the real cause of his parents' deaths. 

Yeah Clark isn't smiling like a goof in the face of disasters and accidents. What a monster.

----------


## AquaLantern

> There is still Aquaman and Wonder Woman is a lock and I'd say so is Reeve's Batman, Shazam, Suicide Squad, and given his reception Flashpoint are also all going to happen IMO. What the DCEU will look like going forward and what films past those will happen. Truth is while that dreaded MCU is making money there is no way WB won't want a piece of that pie no matter how many licks they get.


I don't hate it but does anyone else not give a rat's ass about Marvel when it comes to DCEU?

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Except it doesn't play second everywhere the comics are killing it, The CW shows are doing so well they keep adding to them and there is Gotham on Fox and the upcoming Krypton. Not to mention their animation, games, and even films Wonder Woman did well across the board as did the Nolan trilogy which only ended 5 years ago. 
> 
> 3 films BvS, Suicide Squad, and now Justice League didn't do well critically but all made money I don't see why all the doom and gloom could things be better? Of course but honestly it's not a bad time to be a DC fan.




comics are second place every month, even with Marvel not being exactly in a stellar period 

CW  shows are average at best for what i see People praise the Marve netflix stuff more 


A  game like Injusice with made people loathe Superman and WW

Animation, yeHah, right . Every movie released  with some exceptions is divisive at best , and there is always the complain that is too much Batman

 Is not a good time, dude Being a DC fan is mostly suffering

----------


## Agent Z

> To me, while the films were messed with and I hate that, we have to recognize that with Zack Snyder, there is at least the chance that his films at the time of meddling, were probably bad and the studio felt they had to intervene. I completely agree with you that this is on WB, but I think their greatest sin is allowing Deborah Snyder to abuse power and keep Zack at the helm. Somebody who has a style that is consistently divisive, shouldn't be put in charge of properties that everyone should love. 
> 
> SIMPLE. 
> 
> AS. 
> 
> THAT.
> 
> So yeah, WB...this is on you.


Except the extended cut of BvS ended being better received than the theatrical version. I know to some fans Snyder's the equivalent of Satan but there is only so much the man can do when it comes to studio idiocy.

----------


## Jokerz79

> comics are second place every month, even with Marvel not being exactly in a stellar period 
> 
> CW  shows are average at best for what i see People praise the Marve netflix stuff more 
> 
> 
> A  game like Injusice with made people loathe Superman and WW
> 
> Animation, yeHah, right . Every movie released  with some exceptions is divisive at best , and there is always the complain that is too much Batman
> 
>  Is not a good time, dude Being a DC fan is mostly suffering


One of Marvel's biggest reasons for doing better is Star Wars. The Injustice games are good some may hate their portrayal of characters but they are good and do well same with the animation department. 

Yeah it's not everyone holding hands and singing kumbaya but neither are Marvel Fans. You have fans wars on Legacy vs Classic characters and all the "SGW Marvel" fights, you have the X-Men and FF fan bases feeling like red headed step children and wars with Fox fans vs Disney/MCU fans, the marvel animation is a pale comparison of what it was, TV Iron Fist was bashed and Inhumans is a laughing stock, and you have fans who hate the MCU feeling the films are nothing but jokes. So yeah both sides have their issues but both are also having good times right now too but people chose to focus only on the bad.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Except the extended cut of BvS ended being better received than the theatrical version. I know to some fans Snyder's the equivalent of Satan but there is only so much the man can do when it comes to studio idiocy.


Okay, yeah...the extended cut was better. No doubt. But it was still divisive. I mean, his concept took the two biggest heroes of the universe, and made them enemies...at the start of the universe. So within the universe there was division. Audiences mirrored that. It wouldn't have mattered if it was his cut or not. The universe needed to start to coalesce, not divide or die. Snyder was just being Snyder. So you're right. It was studio idiocy that got us to this point. But the idiocy was putting Snyder in charge and not stepping in at the right points, and instead, stepping in at the wrong points during production.

----------


## Colossus1980

> One of Marvel's biggest reasons for doing better is Star Wars. The Injustice games are good some may hate their portrayal of characters but they are good and do well same with the animation department. 
> 
> Yeah it's not everyone holding hands and singing kumbaya but neither are Marvel Fans. You have fans wars on Legacy vs Classic characters and all the "SGW Marvel" fights, you have the X-Men and FF fan bases feeling like red headed step children and wars with Fox fans vs Disney/MCU fans, the marvel animation is a pale comparison of what it was, TV Iron Fist was bashed and Inhumans is a laughing stock, and you have fans who hate the MCU felling the films are nothing but jokes. So yeah both sides have their issues but both are also having good times right now too but people chose to focus only on the bad.


Yeah, the civil war among Marvel fans can get pretty bad.  Worse than the days of the New 52.

----------


## Jokerz79

The fact that saying "The Justice League movie isn't doing as well critically as the new Thor movie." is a real statement is a wonderful thing to me. Why? Because growing up those movies were the things of fantasy no matter what as a comic fan of both Marvel and DC these are wonderful times.

----------


## Agent Z

> Okay, yeah...the extended cut was better. No doubt. But it was still divisive. I mean, his concept took the two biggest heroes of the universe, and made them enemies...at the start of the universe. So within the universe there was division. Audiences mirrored that. It wouldn't have mattered if it was his cut or not. The universe needed to start to coalesce, not divide or die. Snyder was just being Snyder. So you're right. It was studio idiocy that got us to this point. But the idiocy was putting Snyder in charge and not stepping in at the right points, and instead, stepping in at the wrong points during production.


Divisive is not the same thing as being completely hated. And given how the last Superman movie before Snyder came along was received he did a better job than you're giving him credit for. Basically you seem to ignore the people that actually did like these movies in spite of critics because they disprove your point of these films being failures. 

Superman has been struggling for relevancy since the 80s. It's even been the subject of puff pieces like Kingdom Come and Action Comics 775.

----------


## Frontier

> It's been flat out stated that the reason Steve continued being Captain America was because he could adapt to civilian life. This is made clear in the vision Wanda hits him with in AoU. Before that his very first movie shows a total disregard for laws by repeatedly trying to con his way into the army despite his health issues making him a liability and risking the life of a non combatant in an unsanctioned rescue mission. *These are not the actions of a hero but of a person who plain does not give a damn about anything else than his own gratification*. Civil War takes this up to eleven with him repeatedly refusing to even consider the Accords after one of his missions ended disastrously, assaulting police officers and lying to Tony about the real cause of his parents' deaths. 
> 
> Yeah Clark isn't smiling like a goof in the face of disasters and accidents. What a monster.


You think Steve Rogers wanted to join the army just to pat himself on the back and satisfy himself? You think a guy who, with his issues, would try so hard to join the fight and take on Nazi's or bullies would be in it just to make himself feel better? 

Someone who's first instinct is to jump on a grenade to protect others and keeps fighting no matter how hard or insurmountable the odds? Just like DCEU Superman kept going on even in the face of people constantly criticizing and judging him?




> See, while I don't let it cloud my judgement on these films (See: I liked Wonder Woman), I admit at least a part of me has been actually has been actively rooting against the DCEU since the Whedon Batgirl was announced.* I really don't want that film to get made*. And right now, I think I may get my wish. Aquaman is in Post, Wonder Woman 2 and Suicide Squad 2 are gonna get made, but I'll believe any of the others are getting made when I see a poster.


Right now I can't say I want Whedon directing it at the very least. Batgirl deserves better, especially in light of the _Killing Joke_ animated movie. 

Though we've also got Shazam, Nightwing, Gotham City Sirens, and the potential for Flash and Cyborg, so there's plenty from the DCEU I'd still like to see bore fruition.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's been flat out stated that the reason Steve continued being Captain America was because he could adapt to civilian life. This is made clear in the vision Wanda hits him with in AoU.


I think you're confusing a *fear* that he has of never being *able* to adjust to civilian life with his want to never be a civilian again. Those are two very different things. He wants to feel close to the person he was, but fears he'll never get there. That's pretty much the opposite of "placing all his self worth in his battle prowess."




> Before that his very first movie shows a total disregard for laws by repeatedly trying to con his way into the army despite his health issues making him a liability and risking the life of a non combatant in an unsanctioned rescue mission. These are not the actions of a hero but of a person who plain does not give a damn about anything else than his own gratification.


So wanting to join and serve your country is somehow a suspect motive now? Are we really at that level of jealousy over the MCU's success? That's pretty much the opposite of selflessness. That's wanting to make a contribution and help others.

In the first movie, Steve states *multiple* times that he wants to serve not for his own glory but to help others and help win the war. If he was really as "selfish" as you're making him out to be, he wouldn't have *dove on a grenade and used his own body as a shield for the other recruits.* If he was really the "monster" you're making him out to be, he would've dove behind a van like the other recruits. And he wouldn't have sacrificed himself at the end of the movie. Those are not the actions of someone who's only out for himself.




> Civil War takes this up to eleven with him repeatedly refusing to even consider the Accords after one of his missions ended disastrously, assaulting police officers and lying to Tony about the real cause of his parents' deaths.


He has legitimate reasons for not wanting to support the Accords. Do I agree with them? That's another story. But his fear that government would actively restrict his ability to help others is not a ridiculous concern, especially after the reveal that SHIELD was actually being controlled by HYDRA in Winter Soldier.




> Yeah Clark isn't smiling like a goof in the face of disasters and accidents. What a monster.


Well him moping around like being who he is is a giant burden and lamenting being Superman is not who Superman is. It just isn't.

----------


## tako

Justice League was good but should have been better. Definitely felt like they cut out a lot and replaced with very Whedonistic scenes. 

also don't quite think they did Jack Kirby's Fourth World respectfully but that's ok

----------


## Frontier

> He has legitimate reasons for not wanting to support the Accords. Do I agree with them? That's another story. But his fear that government would actively restrict his ability to help others is not a ridiculous concern, especially after the reveal that SHIELD was actually being controlled by HYDRA in Winter Soldier.


Not to mention the person placed in charge of the Accords or who helped spearhead it was Thunderbolt "hounded The Hulk and created The Abomination" Ross. 

Would anyone trust something with that guy behind it?

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Divisive is not the same thing as being completely hated. And given how the last Superman movie before Snyder came along was received he did a better job than you're giving him credit for. Basically you seem to ignore the people that actually did like these movies in spite of critics because they disprove your point of these films being failures. 
> 
> Superman has been struggling for relevancy since the 80s. It's even been the subject of puff pieces like Kingdom Come and Action Comics 775.



so much this People love to crap on Snyder and say how Superman should be , bu the truht is he is sTruggling for years  at  this point,  is very likely that the perfect superman some  Snyder haters have on their mind would get a mixed reacion indeed 

I wil avoid thsi thread, guys, i swear im no troll im just in a pessimistic mode,  :Frown:

----------


## Agent Z

> I think you're confusing a *fear* that he has of never being *able* to adjust to civilian life with his want to never be a civilian again. Those are two very different things. He wants to feel close to the person he was, but fears he'll never get there. That's pretty much the opposite of "placing all his self worth in his battle prowess."
> 
> 
> 
> So wanting to join and serve your country is somehow a suspect motive now? Are we really at that level of jealousy over the MCU's success? That's pretty much the opposite of selflessness. That's wanting to make a contribution and help others.
> 
> In the first movie, Steve states *multiple* times that he wants to serve not for his own glory but to help others and help win the war. If he was really as "selfish" as you're making him out to be, he wouldn't have *dove on a grenade and used his own body as a shield for the other recruits.* If he was really the "monster" you're making him out to be, he would've dove behind a van like the other recruits. And he wouldn't have sacrificed himself at the end of the movie. Those are not the actions of someone who's only out for himself.
> 
> 
> ...


You are aware that people helped the war effort through ways other than fighting right? Steve didn't have to try and con his way into the army with health issues that would have been more hindrance than help. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in a situation where you're out of your depth and could get people killed. He might claim he isn't doing it for the glory but his actions tell a different story. 

And for all of Steve's fear over government corruption he showed himself to be even less trustworthy by playing into Zemo's hands

Superman has been a far bigger killjoy in the comics than in the movies for a long time with less of a justification

----------


## Buried Alien

> Justice League was good but should have been better. Definitely felt like they cut out a lot and replaced with very Whedonistic scenes. 
> 
> also don't quite think they did Jack Kirby's Fourth World respectfully but that's ok


We've yet to see much of the Fourth World other than Steppenwolf, a handful of Parademons, and three lousy Mother Boxes.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> You are aware that people helped the war effort through ways other than fighting right? Steve didn't have to try and con his way into the army with health issues that would have been more hindrance than help. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in a situation where you're out of your depth and could get people killed. He might claim he isn't doing it for the glory but his actions tell a different story.


He wanted to be there, on the front lines alongside fellow soldiers, helping them the best he could.  And he didn't want to make a tangential contribution. And he couldn't really con them, since he was visibly frail. He just continued to sign up in hopes that they would eventually accept him. And when that didn't work, he *subjected himself to a dangerously experimental procedure to become who they needed him to be*. I think we can say that any argument that what Steve did was selfish is just wrong. It was the opposite of selfish.




> And for all of Steve's fear over government corruption he showed himself to be even less trustworthy by playing into Zemo's hands


Steve wasn't the one who played into Zemo's hands. Zemo's plan was to have everyone believe that Bucky was the terrorist. Steve saw through the ruse. Steve didn't play into his hands. Tony played into Zemo's hands.




> Superman has been a far bigger killjoy in the comics than in the movies for a long time with less of a justification


Not in my opinion, especially with the current run. But besides that, even if he is a killjoy in the comics, does that mean he should be so in the movies as well?

----------


## Johnny

> so much this People love to crap on Snyder and say how Superman should be , bu the truht is he is sTruggling for years  at  this point,  is very likely that the perfect superman some  Snyder haters have on their mind would get a mixed reacion indeed 
> 
> I wil avoid thsi thread, guys, i swear im no troll im just in a pessimistic mode,


If you're not a troll, I don't get how you can tell people that they enjoy seeing the movie performing below expectations. It's a DC forum, I'm pretty sure no matter what opinions fans here have about some of the people in charge of the DCEU, all of us want these films to be well received critically and commercially. Why would we spend so much time discussing them if we wish them to fail? Makes no sense. Yes, Snyder has his fair share of critics, doesn't mean DC fans actually want his movies to be bad or to fail at the BO.

----------


## Frontier

> You are aware that people helped the war effort through ways other than fighting right? Steve didn't have to try and con his way into the army with health issues that would have been more hindrance than help. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in a situation where you're out of your depth and could get people killed. He might claim he isn't doing it for the glory but his actions tell a different story.


He's also acted in ways that were plenty heroic. Whether he was right to try and keep enlisting like he did, because he wanted to be on the front line helping the men fighting and dying out there, his intentions were ultimately heroic and pure. 




> And for all of Steve's fear over government corruption he showed himself to be even less trustworthy by playing into Zemo's hands


Everyone ultimately played into Zemo's hands, up until Steve showed restraint in not killing Tony and T'Challa prevented Zemo from taking his life. 

Tony wasn't much more trustworthy when he went off on his own to find Steve and Bucky once he realized what was going on and didn't tell Ross. And he was pro-Accords. 




> Superman has been a far bigger killjoy in the comics than in the movies for a long time with less of a justification


He's also had plenty of levity and brightness as well.

----------


## tako

> We've yet to see much of the Fourth World other than Steppenwolf, a handful of Parademons, and *three lousy Mother Boxes*.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I think that's part of the problem. Those Mother Boxes aren't very Mother Boxy. The Apocalypse scenes from Batman v Superman were way more Fourth World.

----------


## Barbatos666

> If you're not a troll, I don't get how you can tell people that they enjoy seeing the movie performing below expectations. It's a DC forum, I'm pretty sure no matter what opinions fans here have about some of the people in charge of the DCEU, all of us want these films to be well received critically and commercially. Why would we spend so much time discussing them if we wish them to fail? Makes no sense. Yes, Snyder has his fair share of critics, doesn't mean DC fans actually want his movies to be bad or to fail at the BO.


Well I dislike the DCEU and do feel that poster is being overdramatic but a certain poster did admit that they want the franchise to fail because their not favorite Batgirl is getting a movie. Opinions like those only feed opinions like Seadragon's.

----------


## Black_Adam

Good god, just got out of what I thought was a terrific movie feeling great, only to find the internet is an absolute cesspool of toxic negativity when it comes to anything DCEU, talk about a downer.

Anyway definitely my favourite DCEU movie now. The team had lots of chemistry, all the newcomers were great but I ended up liking Cyborg more then I thought I would and really excited for that Aquaman movie now. Gadot dominated every scene she was in as usual, Cavill was given some nice moments to shine and I know Ben probably won't be around much longer but he is still one hell of a Bruce/Batman when he wants to be. Some nice easter eggs both in the flashbacks and the post credits which really made me feel like this is the actual DCU come to life and any character could exist here, really excited for what the future brings.

Going to see this a bunch more!

----------


## Barbatos666

> Divisive is not the same thing as being completely hated. And given how the last Superman movie before Snyder came along was received he did a better job than you're giving him credit for. Basically you seem to ignore the people that actually did like these movies in spite of critics because they disprove your point of these films being failures. 
> 
> Superman has been struggling for relevancy since the 80s. It's even been the subject of puff pieces like Kingdom Come and Action Comics 775.


If Superman has been struggling for relevancy than all other characters not named Batman, Spider-Man and Xmen are dinosaurs.
This doesn't excuse garbage filmaking and besides TDK and TDKR made over a billion dollars even though
TDK never got released in China and the box office there wasn't even developed.
TDKR suffered a horrible tragedy and didn't get a fair shake in China either.
Both came out 9 and 5 and a half years ago.
Neither had 3D
Both were solo Batman films
Their returns were multiple times that of Batman Begins.

Now we have films
With  3D
Batman and Superman and JL and Luthor
Coming out in 2017/2018
With horrifically inflated budgets
At a time when CBMs are a priority for the studio

And still struggling to go over the 800 mark and by the sound of it JL will make less than BVS meaning the franchise is showing diminishing returns.

Blaming Superman's irrelevancy is literally the worst excuse ever. This is bad filmmaking at its finest. Diminishing returns show that even the audience is dwindling so you cant even blame the critics and if Superman is irrelevant then where did all the love for Batman evaporate?

----------


## Soubhagya

See blaming critics is futile. They see things differently. At the same time one can see that audience did not like BvS. It earned about half of its lifetime gross in the first weekend. If that's not the proof that people did not like it what else is? A really big budget did not help.

SS was luckier. Budget was lesser. The audiences liked it a lot more then BvS. That's why it had legs. But its not a film which makes the casual viewer feel i want to see the next DC film. 

Imo, JL is definitely a film which will be liked by the people. But it is in a tight spot. Ragnarok will affect it. Coco is a Pixar movie. And after Star Wars all are gone. To know if the film is liked by people look at its legs, the multiplier. From that we can understand that people are seeing it more number times then once. 

It may still earn 900 million. Give it time. After sometime picture would be clearer. Foreign BO is another matter too. As of now its not all gloom or doom. 

Negativity is in the reviews who appear somewhat harsh. A good index is cinemascore. It captures audience reaction more accurately.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I'm wondering what effect not having Superman in the trailers, tv spots and posters has had on the opening weekend.

----------


## Username taken

> I'm wondering what effect not having Superman in the trailers, tv spots and posters has had on the opening weekend.


This.

This is why sometimes studios shouldn't listen to complaining on the internet. I recall people screaming about why Marvel showed Spider-man in the marketing for Civil War or why in the BvS trailers Doomsday was shown but the truth is without some of these "spoilers" in the marketing, some casual fans won't show up for the movies. 

A lot of people didn't know Superman was in JL until they saw it (a good chunk of movie goers don't follow geek culture) and I'm pretty sure that if Superman was shown in the marketing it would have ramped up interest especially from casual audiences.

----------


## Colossus1980

> I'm wondering what effect not having Superman in the trailers, tv spots and posters has had on the opening weekend.


Imagine if Thor never showed Hulk in any of the trailers.  You are right, DCEU should have made him visible somewhere.

----------


## Agent Z

> If Superman has been struggling for relevancy than all other characters not named Batman, Spider-Man and Xmen are dinosaurs.
> This doesn't excuse garbage filmaking and besides TDK and TDKR made over a billion dollars even though
> TDK never got released in China and the box office there wasn't even developed.
> TDKR suffered a horrible tragedy and didn't get a fair shake in China either.
> Both came out 9 and 5 and a half years ago.
> Neither had 3D
> Both were solo Batman films
> Their returns were multiple times that of Batman Begins.
> 
> ...



Man of Steel and BvS also made more money than Diperman Returns. What the hell is your point? I wasn't talking about Batman or whoever in my post I was referring to Superman. Plenty of characters not named Batman aren't struggling for relevancy now and the X franchise isn't what it used to be

----------


## Agent Z

> He wanted to be there, on the front lines alongside fellow soldiers, helping them the best he could.  And he didn't want to make a tangential contribution. And he couldn't really con them, since he was visibly frail. He just continued to sign up in hopes that they would eventually accept him. And when that didn't work, he *subjected himself to a dangerously experimental procedure to become who they needed him to be*. I think we can say that any argument that what Steve did was selfish is just wrong. It was the opposite of selfish.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve wasn't the one who played into Zemo's hands. Zemo's plan was to have everyone believe that Bucky was the terrorist. Steve saw through the ruse. Steve didn't play into his hands. Tony played into Zemo's hands.
> 
> 
> 
> Not in my opinion, especially with the current run. But besides that, even if he is a killjoy in the comics, does that mean he should be so in the movies as well?


I said he tried to con them. I never said he succeeded. 

Zemo framed Barnes because he knew Steve would go against everyone else against all logic to protect him. The only reason they ended up in that bunker is because of Steve. Without him butting in, Barnes simply gets captured and Zemo's plan fails.

If it's happened in the comics I'd say it's as valid as any take

----------


## Barbatos666

> Man of Steel and BvS also made more money than Diperman Returns. What the hell is your point? I wasn't talking about Batman or whoever in my post I was referring to Superman. Plenty of characters not named Batman aren't struggling for relevancy now and the X franchise isn't what it used to be


Your entire defence of DCEU is built on dismissing Superman, that's utterly ridiculous and frankly insulting.
By admitting that Man of Steel made more than SR you are defeating your own argument about Superman being irrelevant. People did have interest in Superman particularly one with Nolan's imprint but Snyder squandered that potential and interest. That's on him not Superman.
BVS selling point was Batman and it still made less than the previous 2 solo outings for Batman. Consistently the pattern that emerges is that people do have interest in the characters but the incompetence of Snyder and WB squanders that. 
The X franchise delivered Logan this year and have multiple tv shows so what the hell are you talking about? Any problems they're facing is down to Marvel wanting them to tank because they dont the rights. Superman isn't what he was but calling him irrelevant is not an excuse for garbage filmaking. Stop blaming the character, Batman too was irrelevant after Schumacher was through with him. They were even seriously considering a Batman Beyond film. Spidey films by Sony were diiminishing, GL tanked. Are they irrelevant as well? And Cap is relevant but you have a problem him as well.
So again if you want to blame someone then blame Snyder.

----------


## Soubhagya

Okay here's something. If WW and Ragnarok are great this DC film(JL) is good.

http://www.firstpost.com/entertainme...d-4215795.html

----------


## qwerty3w

> Your entire defence of DCEU is built on dismissing Superman, that's utterly ridiculous and frankly insulting.


DCEU fans just have too much sunk cost on the narrative that Snyder, Goyer and Terrio masterfully modernized the character, they have argued for that pages after pages. But ever since MOS, it's pretty clear modern audience and movie critics would rather have a big blue boy scout Superman than what Snyder and co created.

----------


## Buried Alien

> DCEU fans just have too much sunk cost on the narrative that Snyder, Goyer and Terrio masterfully modernized the character, they have argued for that pages after pages. But ever since MOS, it's pretty clear modern audience and movie critics would rather have a big blue boy scout Superman than what Snyder and co created.


Big Blue Boy Scout has arrived, revamped for a new generation.  Just took a REALLY roundabout way of getting here this time.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Coal Tiger

> DCEU fans just have too much sunk cost on the narrative that Snyder, Goyer and Terrio masterfully modernized the character, they have argued for that pages after pages. But ever since MOS, it's pretty clear modern audience and movie critics would rather have a big blue boy scout Superman than what Snyder and co created.


Yeah, they’d rather have Superman.

----------


## Carabas

> you will no see cass cain outside of comics never, indeed Hope you are happy and enjoy Marvel movies.


Except she has appeared outside comics.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yeah, they’d rather have Superman.


Let's not go into "that wasn't Superman" territory here. Maybe not yours.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> Let's not go into "that wasn't Superman" territory here. Maybe not yours.


No, he was totally Superman by the end of the movie.

----------


## Carabas

> I said he tried to con them. I never said he succeeded. 
> 
> Zemo framed Barnes because he knew Steve would go against everyone else against all logic to protect him. The only reason they ended up in that bunker is because of Steve. Without him butting in, Barnes simply gets captured and Zemo's plan fails.
> 
> If it's happened in the comics I'd say it's as valid as any take


Wait, are you actually saying that in order to be a proper hero, Cap should have sat that one out and let T'Challa murder his obviously framed  sidekick?

Because that's just not a superhero.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> No, he was totally Superman by the end of the movie.


I'm talking prior.

----------


## qwerty3w

It's rumored in Snyder's original cut, there was much more evil Superman and less good Superman, which is why the most of Superman scenes look like reshots:
https://twitter.com/ConnorFilm/statu...37603035680768

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It's rumored in Snyder's original cut, there was much more evil Superman and less good Superman, which is why the most of Superman scenes look like reshots:
> https://twitter.com/ConnorFilm/statu...37603035680768


The entire film? Ffs.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> The entire film? Ffs.


I mean it's just a guy saying something anyone can say *various sources*. Especially since the first comic con post BvS had that poster of Superman with the rest of the league.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I mean it's just a guy saying something anyone can say *various sources*. Especially since the first comic con post BvS had that poster of Superman with the rest of the league.


Yeah I'm skeptical.

----------


## qwerty3w

> I mean it's just a guy saying something anyone can say *various sources*. Especially since the first comic con post BvS had that poster of Superman with the rest of the league.


Read the comments, the journalist Connor Behrens was speaking roughly, he didn't meant the entire movie literally, just the vast majority of it.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Read the comments, the journalist Connor Behrens was speaking roughly, he didn't meant the entire movie literally, just the vast majority of it.


Connor isn't a journalist.

----------


## Nite-Wing

A lot of the movies problems come from whedon's brand of humor too 
Methinks it would have probably been better to just stick with Zack's version since you were going to end up with the same critical failure either way

Now you have the light hearted JL you always wanted and its failed. Nothing left to give audiences since everything you had up your sleeve is spent.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> A lot of the movies problems come from whedon's brand of humor too 
> Methinks it would have probably been better to just stick with Zack's version since you were going to end up with the same critical failure either way
> 
> Now you have the light hearted JL you always wanted and its failed. Nothing left to give audiences since everything you had up your sleeve is spent.


Zack’s vision is the reason way less people are showing up to this movie compared to the last one.

----------


## qwerty3w

> Connor isn't a journalist.


Depend on what you meant by journalist. Or you can say he's a writer for The Daily News and several websites such as WashingtonPost.

----------


## Lokimaru

While I liked the Movie I think having Superman be Evil Longer would have been a better OH Shit now what Moment and upped the stakes even more for the heroes. Also would have sold Clark Kent coming back if Steppy was able to raise the dead in some way. Steppenwolf plus Undead Army vs the Amazons and Atlantians with the Heroes replacing the Gods would have made a epic-ally crazy third act. I mean not one was really Pumped in my theater. People clapped and cheered for MoS, BvS, SS and WW but with this one it was nothing.

----------


## Agent Z

> Wait, are you actually saying that in order to be a proper hero, Cap should have sat that one out and let T'Challa murder his obviously framed  sidekick?
> 
> Because that's just not a superhero.


T'Challa wasn't the only person going after Barnes and Steve didn't even know he wanted to kill Barnes.

----------


## Lokimaru

> Zack’s vision is the reason way less people are showing up to this movie compared to the last one.


At least Zack HAD a Vision. Conviction matters. Every Failure has come because WB got cold feet at the last minute.

----------


## Soubhagya

> At least Zack HAD a Vision. Conviction matters. Every Failure has come because WB got cold feet at the last minute.


Say what you will, the extended cut of BvS might had better reviews but even that can't get crowds. Do you honestly believe people will come back to see the film again and again? Repeat audiences propel a film to 1 billion mark. Even without the butchering of the film it would have struggled to earn money.

Its too serious for its own good. Good for a medium budgeted film. Not so much for 250 billion budget. Someone like Nolan can strike the balance between art and crowd pleasing. Its a big risk. People desire to feel good in a film. That's why Marvel works. Their films are moderately good which have a reputation of pleasing crowds. People want a good time at the movies, not feel depressed or sad or disengaged. They have a formula for humor and action. They make some great films once in a while. And their budgets are not insane. 

The vision was flawed to get the money. It was a vision though. I agree with that. The film which was left untouched was Man Of Steel. It has its problems. But it earned 666 million. That's cool for an origin film. But who knows what would have been the future if they made a Man Of Steel 2 instead of introducing Batman and making it a backdoor pilot for the JL. Who tries to take inspiration from Dark Knight Returns when the universe has not even begun? They sound good on paper.

----------


## Carabas

> At least Zack HAD a Vision.


Not always a good thing, depending on the particular vision.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> At least Zack HAD a Vision. Conviction matters. Every Failure has come because WB got cold feet at the last minute.


If your vision is to turn Superman into a murderer and then a villain, it’s not worth pursuing. A building with a terrible foundation is just gonna crumble no matter what grand plans you had for it.

----------


## mace11

> That's because most MCU films are well on pace to break even or better come opening weekend and usually have positive reviews. For the ones that aren't, they don't really matter because enough do that it offsets one or two movies that underperform.


Keep in mind that all mcu movies so far has had postive reviews(over 60% on rt)and the only one that under perform domestically is the incredible hulk but worldwide it was a success.

----------


## Agent Z

> If your vision is to turn Superman into a murderer and then a villain, it’s not worth pursuing. A building with a terrible foundation is just gonna crumble no matter what grand plans you had for it.


Does the word murderer mean something different on the net now? 

And he wouldn't be anymore of a villain than Winter Soldier.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> If your vision is to turn Superman into a murderer and then a villain, its not worth pursuing. A building with a terrible foundation is just gonna crumble no matter what grand plans you had for it.


Superman doesn't murder anyone in any Snyder film.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> Does the word murderer mean something different on the net now? 
> 
> And he wouldn't be anymore of a villain than Winter Soldier.


It’s ok, I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference between Superman and an assassin with a metal arm.

----------


## Agent Z

> It’s ok, I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference between Superman and an assassin with a metal arm.


and you don't seem to know the difference between murder and justifiable homicide.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Man, apparently WB cut Supes getting his suit (then I assume going to Alfred to see where they are).

I hope JL under performs, WB got away with it last year with BvS and SS, can't get away with it again.

----------


## jertz666

http://deadline.com/2017/11/justice-...ar-1202211094/

"Writethru of 2ND UPDATE, Friday night: Justice League‘s Friday, coming off a solid $13 million Thursday, is landing at the high end of its midday estimate with $38.4M, however, Warner Bros./DC’s superhero ensemble is falling well short of $100M with an industry estimate of $93.5M over three-days, quite far from tracking’s $110M-$120M projection."

93.5M?  Wow .... and I thought the initial estimate of $110-120 M was low-balling it.  By comparison, here are the opening weekend numbers of the following DCEU films:

Batman v Superman - $166,007,347
Suicide Squad - $133,682,248
Man of Steel - $116,619,362
Wonder Woman - $103,251,471	

And since the Justice League is supposed to be DC's version of Marvel's Avengers here are the opening weekend grosses of the 2 Avenger's movies as a point of comparison.

Marvel's The Avengers - $207,438,708
Avengers:  Age of Ultron:  $191,271,109

Justice League's cinemascore is B+ .. .not particulary high so don't expect the legs that Wonder Woman had.    Among this year's superhero films,  Wonder Woman, Spider Man and Thor had a cinemascore of A  while audiences gave Logan a score of A-.

Of course, the numbers being posted for JL are just estimates based on Thursday and Friday grosses.   Let's see how it turns out.   Even then, the upper end of the estimates sound like a disappointment to me.  $120 M .... for a JL movie?    Should we start using the word flop?

----------


## Vanguard-01

Saw it. Loved it. Would've definitely loved it more if it was complete. 

I was planning to see it several more times to help the box office, but I think I won't now. Not because I don't want to see it more times, but I really believe WB deserves to take the financial hit this time as they clearly failed to learn from the mistakes they made with BvS.

It's really not that hard: they chopped up BvS for BS reasons. End result? The critics skewered it. I still think they were overly harsh, just as I think they are even MORE overly harsh with this movie, but that's neither here nor there. Bottom line? Then the critics saw the Extended Cut and pretty much EVERY. SINGLE. ONE of them greatly improved their opinion of the film overall. Moral of the story? If WB had released the Extended Cut to the theaters, they would've gotten a better critical reception and likely would've made more money. 

Now they've gone and repeated that mistake here in Justice League, and they're paying for it once again. I hope they DO release that three-hour Extended Cut about which we've heard, and I hope that it once again gets better treated by the critics. Then WB will have truly repeated history after having not learned a darned thing from it.

----------


## Thomas Crown

About this "let's boycott Justice League box office to teach Warner Bros a lesson" idea, while I agree in principle, there's a big problem: studio executives NEVER learn. It's more likely they throw Zack under the bus AGAIN than recognize they screwed up.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> About this "let's boycott Justice League box office to teach Warner Bros a lesson" idea, while I agree in principle, there's a big problem: studio executives NEVER learn. It's more likely they throw Zack under the bus AGAIN than recognize they screwed up.


I was about to say exactly this. I would wholeheartedly join if I felt the execs would learn that lesson. Instead they're more likely to start meddling even further and squandering what they have. I'm telling people it's worth seeing and probably going to see it again.

----------


## Black_Adam

> About this "let's boycott Justice League box office to teach Warner Bros a lesson" idea, while I agree in principle, there's a big problem: studio executives NEVER learn. It's more likely they throw Zack under the bus AGAIN than recognize they screwed up.


Zack was thrown under the bus a long time ago at this point he's pretty much roadkill. 

https://batman-news.com/2017/11/17/z...ue-apologizes/

He still hasn't even seen the film, I think it is safe to say whatever working relationship he had with DC Films is over.




> I was about to say exactly this. I would wholeheartedly join if I felt the execs would learn that lesson. Instead they're more likely to start meddling even further and squandering what they have. I'm telling people it's worth seeing and probably going to see it again.


Or they just go cold on the idea of big teamups and stick to solo movies interconnected or not. Personally for me the Justice League is the zenith of DC heroes I will be pretty upset if they don't make a sequel.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Zacks vision is the reason way less people are showing up to this movie compared to the last one.


The last movie from the DCEU was WW which performed solidly but...
Fair point Zack Snyder is poison and hurt Justice League's potential with MoS and BvS eroding support for him as a director. 

Its also a bad movie under Whedon's stewardship. My point was that all the course correcting is truly what is making these movies reviled. Studio interference has been behind all the critical flops so far. 

Now you can't rely on the "see its bright and sunny like the avengers" narrative anymore, audiences rejected it all the same.
If they had stuck to their guns they would be in the same position they are now anyway 
So what was the point of the massive cuts and reshoots to all the movies so far? Nothing, It did nothing for the audience. JL has a B cinemascore so even with the fans that stuck around it isn't exactly resonating

----------


## Vanguard-01

> About this "let's boycott Justice League box office to teach Warner Bros a lesson" idea, while I agree in principle, there's a big problem: studio executives NEVER learn. It's more likely they throw Zack under the bus AGAIN than recognize they screwed up.


If executives literally never learn, then they're just going to keep making the same mistakes forever.

That means we're going to keep getting excited about a new movie for months or years, only to get kicked in the junk when it, too, gets chopped to pieces and roasted by the critics.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> If executives literally never learn, then they're just going to keep making the same mistakes forever.
> 
> That means we're going to keep getting excited about a new movie for months or years, only to get kicked in the junk when it, too, gets chopped to pieces and roasted by the critics.


The question is, is that better than letting it die? And by the same token, is it sustainable? I don't have the answers, it's just a tricky thing.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Superman doesn't murder anyone in any Snyder film.


Yes. This should not be in dispute.

----------


## Doctor Know

> The question is, is that better than letting it die? And by the same token, is it sustainable? I don't have the answers, it's just a tricky thing.


Best thing to do is to continue the path and support their initiative. The last thing you want is for a studio to lose confidence and interest in their IP.

Look at how Disney and 20th Century Fox before them, supported and promoted Star Wars. Compared to Paramount's tepid support of Star Trek. Ever since Star Trek TMP (1979) failed to hit Star Wars (1977) numbers at the BO, Paramount has acted like they were ashamed of their IP. 2016 was Trek's big 50th anniversary. How many people knew that, and how many people didn't go see the latest Trek film because of it? Not to mention, Paramount has seemingly run out of ideas for what to do with Trek. The last 6 Trek movies have all been the same. Bad guy wants revenge against the heroes. Beyond -> Into Darkness -> Star Trek -> Nemesis -> Insurrection -> First Contact. All trying to recapture the lightning in the bottle success of the original revenge Trek story, Wrath of Khan.

For WB/DC, that would be like them making nothing but Batman/Gotham films and shucking doing anything else. 


You can't really teach the WB executives a lesson by voting with your wallets. WB is only behind Disney as the top grossing Hollywood studio. Sony has been in the red for years. They lost money on TASM2, Ghostbusters, and James Bond Spectre, didn't light the world on fire. Every Paramount film for the last 16-18 months has either under performed (Transformers 5, Star Trek Beyond) or flopped at the BO. The only other major  IP Paramount has is Mission Impossible. Lionsgate ran out of juice once the Young Adult well (Twilight, Maze Runner, Hunger Games, Divergent) ran dry. Universal only has the Fast and the Furious and Jurassic World (a real runaway hit) movies to bolster their numbers. Fox has Planet of the Apes (which recently under performed), X-Men, and whatever they conjure up for the FF.

WB is number 2 with DC, Harry Potter/Fantastic Beasts, Nolan's movies.
Disney has the MCU, Star Wars, Pixar and their live action remakes of their animated movies.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I really don't see how rewarding WB for constantly making the anticipation of a new movie into a torturous experience helps anyone?

----------


## Jokerz79

> I really don't see how rewarding WB for constantly making the anticipation of a new movie into a torturous experience helps anyone?


It's a given at this point Justice League won't make what WB wanted all anyone is doing now by supporting the DCEU IMO is trying to guarantee it's future and not rewarding WB.

----------


## Soubhagya

A few interesting articles.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#35d84ae91143

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#3ff979b93613

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Best thing to do is to continue the path and support their initiative. The last thing you want is for a studio to lose confidence and interest in their IP.


Yeah ultimately you're right.

I think it's also important for us to remember that while WB needs no incentive to meddle, it was a tragedy that plagued this particular production. It doesn't have to be like this going forward.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> A few interesting articles.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#35d84ae91143
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#3ff979b93613


I didn't think of it that way but it does make a lot of sense. A premier rather than a finale. And WW & other properties doing well certainly helps.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's a given at this point Justice League won't make what WB wanted all anyone is doing now by supporting the DCEU IMO is trying to guarantee it's future and not rewarding WB.


Yeah, I guess that's true. 

Okay. Maybe I'll go see it another time or two. Heck, I've got a $25 gift card I can use if I don't want to use more of my money.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I can't believe that some posters here haven't come to their sense about Snyder yet. Is there blame to share from the WB execs? You bet your ass. But this has always been about Snyder. Did the WB brass meddle with It? How about with Dunkirk? What about with Wonder Woman? No they didn't screw around with those movies because they weren't alarmed with what they were being shown in the months leading up to release! In January it was reported that Snyder showed a cut of the film to WB and it was "unwatchable." It wasn't too long after that the reshoot drama started first with Snyder, and then with Whedon. 

Snyder is a good man and a hell of a talent visually. But he has a proven track record of making divisive films. Either divisive content (MOS destruction and killing), or divisive critically (BvS). Being a divisive director is not really the issue, as plenty of legendary directors are exactly that (Oliver Stone, David Lynch, etc.). However, a divisive director has no business being put in charge of movies like these ones that need to be loved, not divide the audience and critic pool. So to me, that is where WB screwed up. They put Snyder on these properties, and when they meddled, they meddled at the wrong time. They should have "meddled" after BvS and removed Snyder. Instead, they keep choosing to "meddle" when its really too late and nobody wins and everyone looks like a loser.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I can't believe that some posters here haven't come to their sense about Snyder yet. Is there blame to share from the WB execs? You bet your ass. But this has always been about Snyder. Did the WB brass meddle with It? How about with Dunkirk? What about with Wonder Woman? No they didn't screw around with those movies because they weren't alarmed with what they were being shown in the months leading up to release! In January it was reported that Snyder showed a cut of the film to WB and it was "unwatchable." It wasn't too long after that the reshoot drama started first with Snyder, and then with Whedon.


Yes, WB did try to screw with Wonder Woman, actually. In fact, they wanted to do something that would've just about GUARANTEED that Wonder Woman would've been significantly less well-received. They tried to cut the freaking No Man's Land scene! You know? Pretty much the best part of the whole dang movie? One of the pivotal inspirational moments that earned Wonder Woman that "inspirational" label from the critics? They only didn't cut that scene because Patty Jenkins fought like a tiger to keep that scene. Pretty sure she had some backing from Johns as well. 




> Snyder is a good man and a hell of a talent visually. But he has a proven track record of making divisive films. Either divisive content (MOS destruction and killing), or divisive critically (BvS). Being a divisive director is not really the issue, as plenty of legendary directors are exactly that (Oliver Stone, David Lynch, etc.). However, a divisive director has no business being put in charge of movies like these ones that need to be loved, not divide the audience and critic pool. So to me, that is where WB screwed up. They put Snyder on these properties, and when they meddled, they meddled at the wrong time. They should have "meddled" after BvS and removed Snyder. Instead, they keep choosing to "meddle" when its really too late and nobody wins and everyone looks like a loser.


If WB hadn't chopped up BvS, it would've been even more critically and financially successful than it was. This is clear by the fact that the critics all loved his version of the film so much more than the butchered mess that actually went into the theaters. Would the fans still be screaming at each other over it? Sure, but comic nerds need no encouragement to debate each other over the smallest of things. But the movie itself would've done much, much better with just about everyone else.

I'll bet you anything, if we get an Uncut version of Justice League, it's reception will be much the same way. Seems to me like the lesson learned here should be "Let Snyder make the movie his way."

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yes, WB did try to screw with Wonder Woman, actually. In fact, they wanted to do something that would've just about GUARANTEED that Wonder Woman would've been significantly less well-received. They tried to cut the freaking No Man's Land scene! You know? Pretty much the best part of the whole dang movie? One of the pivotal inspirational moments that earned Wonder Woman that "inspirational" label from the critics? They only didn't cut that scene because Patty Jenkins fought like a tiger to keep that scene. Pretty sure she had some backing from Johns as well. 
> 
> 
> 
> If WB hadn't chopped up BvS, it would've been even more critically and financially successful than it was. This is clear by the fact that the critics all loved his version of the film so much more than the butchered mess that actually went into the theaters. Would the fans still be screaming at each other over it? Sure, but comic nerds need no encouragement to debate each other over the smallest of things. But the movie itself would've done much, much better with just about everyone else.
> 
> I'll bet you anything, if we get an Uncut version of Justice League, it's reception will be much the same way. Seems to me like the lesson learned here should be "Let Snyder make the movie his way."


Link me reviews of critics liking the extended cut. I've never seen anyone outside of geek culture blogs reviewing it. I also don't buy that it would have been more successful for the universe. it failed in concept from the beginning. You don't unify a universe by dividing it's two biggest heroes.

Also, the lesson should be "Let Snyder make the movie his way?" hahahahaha. You're crazy. Because movies his way got us Sucker Punch and the dumb Owl movie, in addition to the brand damage to DC. The lesson should be don't have Deborah Snyder protecting Zack's "right" to these films.

Lastly, if we let Snyder make his movie we would have had an Injustice DCEU. If you deny that then you're in denial.

----------


## Agent Z

> Link me reviews of critics liking the extended cut. I've never seen anyone outside of geek culture blogs reviewing it. I also don't buy that it would have been more successful for the universe. it failed in concept from the beginning. *You don't unify a universe by dividing it's two biggest heroes.*
> 
> Also, the lesson should be "Let Snyder make the movie his way?" hahahahaha. You're crazy. Because movies his way got us Sucker Punch and the dumb Owl movie, in addition to the brand damage to DC. The lesson should be don't have Deborah Snyder protecting Zack's "right" to these films.


Batman and Superman fighting over one thing or another when they first meet then teaming up is old hat when it comes to DC. 

Also, Sucker Punch suffered studio meddling too so no it wasn't made the way Snyder wanted.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Also, the lesson should be "Let Snyder make the movie his way?" hahahahaha. You're crazy. Because movies his way got us Sucker Punch and the dumb Owl movie, in addition to the brand damage to DC. The lesson should be don't have Deborah Snyder protecting Zack's "right" to these films.
> 
> Lastly, if we let Snyder make his movie we would have had an Injustice DCEU. If you deny that then you're in denial.


1. Show me proof that Snyder would had an Injustice DCEU.

2. Things would have been fine had WB had more faith in the product and not desperately to try satisfy critics who can't get themselves out of Marvel mode.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Says who? Batman and Superman fighting over one thing or another when they first meet is old hat when it comes to DC. 
> 
> Also, Sucker Punch suffered studio meddling too so no it wasn't made the way Snyder wanted.


Fighting over one thing or another is not the same as having Batman an inch from killing Superman three quarters through the film.

Also, if they meddled with Sucker Punch then I guess there is a history of studios having to clean up Snyder's mess. Sucks that his wife kept protecting his career.

----------


## Agent Z

> Link me reviews of critics liking the extended cut. I've never seen anyone outside of geek culture blogs reviewing it. I also don't buy that it would have been more successful for the universe. it failed in concept from the beginning. You don't unify a universe by dividing it's two biggest heroes.
> 
> Also, the lesson should be "Let Snyder make the movie his way?" hahahahaha. You're crazy. Because movies his way got us Sucker Punch and the dumb Owl movie, in addition to the brand damage to DC. The lesson should be don't have Deborah Snyder protecting Zack's "right" to these films.
> 
> Lastly, if we let Snyder make his movie we would have had an Injustice DCEU. If you deny that then you're in denial.


Care to back this claim up with evidence? And no a story about Superman being brainwashed (a story told several times) is not the same as Injustice.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> 1. Show me proof that Snyder would had an Injustice DCEU.
> 
> 2. Things would have been fine had WB had more faith in the product and not desperately to try satisfy critics who can't get themselves out of Marvel mode.



Did you watch BvS? What do you think the Flash nightmare vision was? It was Lois is the key, just as she was in Injustice. Also had Superman in the nightmare vision tell Batman, as he commands an apocalyptic army, that he took Lois from him. Justice League was going to heavily play off that. I'm glad that was interfered with.

----------


## Soubhagya

Questions for fans.

BvS. Releasing a 3 hour film, which is probably R-rated, made for 250 million dollars. Does it make sense? We are fans. 3 hours is not a big deal. But honestly can an eight year old who has come with his family to see Batman and Superman sit for 3 hours? It makes sense that they cut 30 minutes. What they cut is a different matter.

SS. Nothing would have helped. They were fearful of many things considering the 'meh' response of BvS. Do we desire to see Joker torturing Harley? We want more Leto? Maybe some fans would agree. Others would not. I don't defend this though. 

They kept their hands to themselves in case of Wonder Woman. Almost nothing was cut. They could have chopped off quite a few scenes. There's not much difference between theatrical and blu-ray.

Justice League. I won't see it again. When i found it enjoyable. How dare they cut the film? I don't want JL2 or Flashpoint. I don't need that *spoilers:*
Injustice League
*end of spoilers*. I am a Superman fan. I don't want MoS 2. Very well let me vote by my wallet. Can't any one notice something? Wasn't it a bit different this time? Didn't we feel that 'hope, humor and heroism' which was plenty in Wonder Woman, which was present to an extent here? No i won't defend their cuts. But not going again even after i enjoyed it seems an overkill.

----------


## Agent Z

> Fighting over one thing or another is not the same as having Batman an inch from killing Superman three quarters through the film.


Irrelevant. You said they shouldn't divide it's heroes in their first "unifying" team up. I pointed out that this has been a reocurring trend in DC so please keep the goal posts where they are.

----------


## Agent Z

> Did you watch BvS? What do you think the Flash nightmare vision was? It was Lois is the key, just as she was in Injustice. Also had Superman in the nightmare vision tell Batman, as he commands an apocalyptic army, that he took Lois from him. Justice League was going to heavily play off that. I'm glad that was interfered with.


Did you see the Omega symbols in the Knightmare sequence? it's pretty obvious he was going to be brainwashed not being evil of his own free will. Not even remotely the same as Injustice. Some of the reports even back this up with *spoilers:*
Steppenwolf being the one who revived Clark not the League.
*end of spoilers*

Snyder would have just given us another "Superman is brainwashed" story that we've already seen.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Irrelevant. You said they shouldn't divide it's heroes in their first "unifying" team up. I pointed out that this has been a reocurring trend in DC so please keep the goal posts where they are.


Who's moving goal posts? Also, was there a team-up? They conversed post-fight for all but 2 lines. It failed as a team-up because the vast majority of the film was about leading to their conflict, not resolution. It's not my fault that Snyder was obsessed with Frank Miller's material.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Did you watch BvS? What do you think the Flash nightmare vision was? It was Lois is the key, just as she was in Injustice. Also had Superman in the nightmare vision tell Batman, as he commands an apocalyptic army, that he took Lois from him. Justice League was going to heavily play off that. I'm glad that was interfered with.


I completely understand because I made the connection 2 seconds after the reveal of the "big guns". And let's hope that this is all the evil Superman we'll get from any DC film.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Did you see the Omega symbols in the Knightmare sequence? it's pretty obvious he was going to be brainwashed not being evil of his own free will. Not even remotely the same as Injustice. Some of the reports even back this up with *spoilers:*
> Steppenwolf being the one who revived Clark not the League.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Snyder would have just given us another "Superman is brainwashed" story that we've already seen.



Fine. Not Injustice. But we would have had an evil Superman for too long in the first ever Justice League movie. I'm glad that vision got broken in half.

----------


## Agent Z

> *Who's moving goal posts?*


That would be you.






> Also, was there a team-up? They conversed post-fight for all but 2 lines. It failed as a team-up because the vast majority of the film was about leading to their conflict, not resolution. It's not my fault that Snyder was obsessed with Frank Miller's material.


Just because you say it wasn't a team up doesn't mean it wasn't one.

One movie that's a very loose adaptation is an obsession now?

----------


## AquaLantern

> Questions for fans.
> 
> BvS. Releasing a 3 hour film, which is probably R-rated, made for 250 million dollars. Does it make sense? We are fans. 3 hours is not a big deal. But honestly can an eight year old who has come with his family to see Batman and Superman sit for 3 hours? It makes sense that they cut 30 minutes. What they cut is a different matter.
> 
> SS. Nothing would have helped. They were fearful of many things considering the 'meh' response of BvS. Do we desire to see Joker torturing Harley? We want more Leto? Maybe some fans would agree. Others would not. I don't defend this though. 
> 
> They kept their hands to themselves in case of Wonder Woman. Almost nothing was cut. They could have chopped off quite a few scenes. There's not much difference between theatrical and blu-ray.
> 
> Justice League. We won't see it again. When we found it enjoyable. How dare they cut the film? We don't want JL2 or Flashpoint. We don't need that *spoilers:*
> ...


Yeah I pretty much want JL2 and MoS2. Not keen on Flashpoint but probably see it anyway if they differentiate enough from the CW. 

Need to be careful how you use "we" because you do not speak for all fans.

----------


## Jabare

I really don't want Flashpoint. 

If people thought BvS was depressing wait till they get a load of Flashpoint

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That would be you.



The original goal posts for Batman and Superman's first team-up was joy and enthusiasm. It failed to get there. That's why Geoff Johns was brought in.

----------


## AquaLantern

Wouldn't it make more sense to get an basic understanding of Barry's world before going into Flashpoint? Because while it makes sense to see how it affect the entire DCU it would be more compelling to see how things change for Barry. Have a solo film with the rouges or something then go into Flashpoint because it should be a Flash movie first rather than a pseudo Justice League film.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Yeah I pretty much want JL2 and MoS2. Not keen on Flashpoint but probably see it anyway if they differentiate enough from the CW. 
> 
> Need to be careful how you use "we" because you do not speak for all fans.


Okay i am Sorry. Was a bit angry. Let me edit it.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Here is some fuel to the WB execs are incompetent crowd. I just got talked with my friend who has contacts in the theater distribution business, and apparently some of the international box office woes is because WB screwed up the distribution deal, and some of the biggest theaters in places like Mexico aren't even showing the film!

----------


## Bossace

So JL got 38.8 million on Friday.

For people to compare here are other DCEU Friday numbers:

WW- 38 million
SS- 56 Million
BVS- 81 Million
MOS- 56 Million

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I really don't want Flashpoint. 
> 
> If people thought BvS was depressing wait till they get a load of Flashpoint


If he saves her at the end it could be worth it.

----------


## Agent Z

> The original goal posts for Batman and Superman's first team-up was joy and enthusiasm. It failed to get there. That's why Geoff Johns was brought in.



Joy and enthusiasm? Which Batman/Superman first team ups have you seen? 

And Johns is the last guy you bring in if you want joy. Just ask John Stewart, Conner Kent, Bart Allen and Wally West fans

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So JL got 38.8 million on Friday.
> 
> For people to compare here are other DCEU Friday numbers:
> 
> WW- 38 million
> SS- 56 Million
> BVS- 81 Million
> MOS- 56 Million


Yikes. Also, damn did MOS run out steam after the first weekend.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Joy and enthusiasm? Which Batman/Superman first team ups have you seen?


Huh? You're flailing right now. Just stop.

----------


## Bossace

> Yikes. Also, damn did MOS run out steam after the first weekend.


Mos made 116 Million opening weekend then 41 the following weekend.

----------


## Buried Alien

> About this "let's boycott Justice League box office to teach Warner Bros a lesson" idea, while I agree in principle, there's a big problem: studio executives NEVER learn. It's more likely they throw Zack under the bus AGAIN than recognize they screwed up.


OR WORSE, they learn the WRONG lesson.  The one WE want them to learn (and imagine they will) is that they have to make better superhero movies. What they will MORE LIKELY learn is that these movies are not worth the trouble and stop making them altogether.

I do not see the latter as any kind of "win" for fans; it's more akin to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Agent Z

> Huh? You're flailing right now. Just stop.


With some of the inaccuracies you've spilled in the past pages, might want to consider your own advice.

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Superman doesn't murder anyone in any Snyder film.


Didn't he kill Zod at the end of the MoS?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> With some of the inaccuracies you've spilled in the past pages, might want to consider your own advice.


Zero inaccuracies. I just said things that hurt your position as a dug in Synder fan.

----------


## DragonPiece

> So JL got 38.8 million on Friday.
> 
> For people to compare here are other DCEU Friday numbers:
> 
> WW- 38 million
> SS- 56 Million
> BVS- 81 Million
> MOS- 56 Million


pretty pathethic. Definitely would have been more smart to delay it to next year since nothing is even coming out till December.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> pretty pathethic. Definitely would have been more smart to delay it to next year since nothing is even coming out till December.


Its the 5th installment in a series dviding its own fanbase :Frown:

----------


## Johnny

> So JL got 38.8 million on Friday.
> 
> For people to compare here are other DCEU Friday numbers:
> 
> WW- 38 million
> SS- 56 Million
> BVS- 81 Million
> MOS- 56 Million


Kind of funny they booted GL because they thought he would be poison to their BO. Oh the irony.

----------


## Jabare

> Kind of funny they booted GL because they thought he would be poison to their BO. Oh the irony.


even hard core DCEU defenders hated Green Lantern tho. I've never heard any positive praise of that film

----------


## Carabas

> About this "let's boycott Justice League box office to teach Warner Bros a lesson" idea, while I agree in principle, there's a big problem: studio executives NEVER learn. It's more likely they throw Zack under the bus AGAIN than recognize they screwed up.


It's more like "Let's not spend cash on 2/3rds of a movie that isn't even that good anyway" than a boycott.

----------


## Agent Z

> Zero inaccuracies. I just said things that hurt your position as a dug in Synder fan.


You've accused Snyder of wanting to make an Injustice movie. 

You've ignored the extended cut of BvS being better received to justify WB messing with the film.

----------


## Johnny

> even hard core DCEU defenders hated Green Lantern tho. I've never heard any positive praise of that film


The point is a studio excluding a character from their "super-team" out of fear for affecting their numbers and yet the movie underperforming anyway due to bad reception, is proof there's nothing inherently wrong with the Green Lantern character or concept, only the studio's incompetence once again.

----------


## Agent Z

> Didn't he kill Zod at the end of the MoS?


That wasn't murder.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> That wasn't murder.


Anytime you intentionally kill somebody, its homicide aka murder. Even if its justifiable homicide, its still homicide.

----------


## Jabare

it was more like assisted suicide

----------


## Agent Z

> Anytime you intentionally kill somebody, its homicide aka murder. Even if its justifiable homicide, its still homicide.


The law describes murder as the unlawful, premeditated killing of another individual. This does not describe the killing of Zod which was done in defense of others (therefore not making it a crime in the eyes of the law) and not premeditated.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The law describes murder as the unlawful, premeditated killing of another individual. This does not describe the killing of Zod which was done in defense of others (therefore not making it a crime in the eyes of the law) and not premeditated.


Yep. Man of Justifiable Homicide, okay, but not the Man of Murder.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Didn't he kill Zod at the end of the MoS?


He didn't murder him. Really silly and inaccurate to conflate homicide with murder.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> it was more like assisted suicide


Lol. Full on chuckle.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

https://twitter.com/aqxa182/status/931571263721545728

This thread is depressing af man.  :Frown:

----------


## Jabare

> https://twitter.com/aqxa182/status/931571263721545728
> 
> This thread is depressing af man.


I really wanted those scenes

----------


## Carabas

> https://twitter.com/aqxa182/status/931571263721545728
> 
> This thread is depressing af man.


Wait, that's all missing? Wow. What did they even leave in?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> https://twitter.com/aqxa182/status/931571263721545728
> 
> This thread is depressing af man.


Yes it is.

----------


## Angelo2113

> They may have set out to do that but IMO they made a movie that couldn't be more pleasing to the most serious of fans. As I keep on saying, SO much fan service. I think the more you care about the Justice League as we know them from the comics and animated stuff, the more you are probably going to love this movie too. Or love too much of this movie to not care very much that it's not a very good movie apart from how great it is at serving fans. And how wonderful is that! To have just one like that! That's why this movie satisfied me in ways no prior CBM has. I'd rather have what we got than a hit movie with far less of the great character moments that will appeal most to those that have been waiting decades for this, because I'm one of them. Nearly 5 decades and I was SO SATISFIED. And I'm NEVER satisfied by CBM's.
> 
> There were so many moments I loved I can't even remember half of them. (I saw it at Monday screening and my jaw was on the floor the whole time - I hardly remembered my name after.) So I can't wait to see it at least once more this weekend.
> 
> I'd be curious to see a poll that gauged both posters' response to the movie AND their level of fandom specifically for the JL(A) because I would expect the bigger the fan of the one, the bigger the fan of the other.


As upset as I am about not having a true Snyder version, I can't argue with what you described in your post. I was unbelievably pleased seeing those moments on the big screen. The crowd that was in the theater that I saw it in went absolutely crazy during multiple scenes throughout the movie and the atmosphere was electrifying. I don't ever remember an experience at the movie theaters like I had with that.

----------


## Jabare

> Wait, that's all missing? Wow. What did they even leave in?


they made 40 minutes of cuts so....

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/aqxa182/status/931571263721545728
> 
> This thread is depressing af man.


Dang, I've seen scenes in promotional material not end up in the actual movie but this looks like an absurd amount of stuff that WB showed the public and then cut from the final movie.

Especially since a lot of them were money shots.

----------


## mace11

> And generally, I do give credit to the DCEU for trying to be a little more ambitious and not keeping things as light as the Marvel U, but I think when talking about these movies we should at least acknowledge that Marvel has managed to consistently put out narratively/structurally sound movies and DC has been very up and down on that front.


The dceu was getting lighter however and will get lighter.

I think marvel mcu is more ambitious and take more risk then the dceu.(plus they have shows,ones shots,related comics etc..)
The mcu just happens to be better at it because of better planning and other factors.
The mcu films have more varied tones and stories and are stronger films on average then the dceu films.
Of course most mcu films are not action comedies like some like to  say here.
The mcu shows  iron fist are the least liked in mcu but will be getting still a second season and most folks who watched it still liked it.It has the highest rating of netflix mcu shows
Inhumans was liked the least but most folks watching it still liked it and has okay viewership ratings.It may still get a second season.
Most folks liked BVS but not as much has the other dceu films.

----------


## Frontier

> The dceu was getting lighter however and will get lighter.
> 
> I think marvel mcu is more ambitious and take more risk then the dceu.
> The mcu just happens to be better at it because of better planning and other factors.


Frankly not trying to mimic or copy the Marvel formula to begin with for this universe is ambitious. 

Obviously that changed with _Justice League_, though apparently not very smoothly.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I really wanted those scenes


I barely watched any trailers so this is all extra shocking to me, that shot of Steppenwolf under the dark red sky is so atmospheric like something like that in the actual film would have sold him more. The farm scene alone in the last trailer is so much more beautifully shot it's unbelievable.

----------


## Frontier

> Joy and enthusiasm? Which Batman/Superman first team ups have you seen?


_World's Finest_ was pretty fun. _The Batman_ team-up. I wouldn't even say Byrne's first team-up between them was joyless even if there was division or conflict between them. 




> And Johns is the last guy you bring in if you want joy. Just ask John Stewart, Conner Kent, Bart Allen and Wally West fans


Johns gave 3/4 of those characters plenty of fun and joyful moments intermingled with the drama he put them through (however unnecessary some may feel they were).

----------


## Jabare

As far as movie making goes Marvel has been keeping safe since Avengers. The difference is the general audience had no expectations for these films. With Characters like Superman and Batman audiences are use to these two and have built in expectations.

Disney loves to plays safe. Look at Star Wars, look at all the live aciotn remakes they are doing.

The only films Marvel took risks on were Guardians of the Galaxy, Antman (sorta, not really) and the upcoming Black Panther. Some would argue Captain Marvel I wouldn't but will see.


DCEU has been branded old school critics will never like it.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> The law describes murder as the unlawful, premeditated killing of another individual. This does not describe the killing of Zod which was done in defense of others (therefore not making it a crime in the eyes of the law) and not premeditated.





> He didn't murder him. Really silly and inaccurate to conflate homicide with murder.


That's actually inaccurate. Common law defines murder as any (1) unlawful (2) killing (3) through criminal act or omission (4) of a human (5) by another human (6) with malice aforethought. That last element (malice aforethought) is interpreted very broadly and basically encompasses *any* malicious intent including the intent to kill, the intent to inflict serious bodily injury, or even just reckless indifference to someone's safety. So there is no premeditation required. Premeditation is just one way something can go from second-degree murder to first-degree murder.

Under common law definition, what Clark does could be seen as murder. He could bring up the defense that he was defending others, but in all honesty, he and Zod created the situation that put those people in danger in the first place and could be interpreted as his own recklessness.

----------


## mace11

> As far as movie making goes Marvel has been keeping safe since Avengers. The difference is the general audience had no expectations for these films. With Characters like Superman and Batman audiences are use to these two and have built in expectations.
> 
> Disney loves to plays safe. Look at Star Wars, look at all the live aciotn remakes they are doing.
> 
> The only films Marvel took risks on were Guardians of the Galaxy, Antman (sorta, not really) and the upcoming Black Panther. Some would argue Captain Marvel I wouldn't but will see.


This IS not true.
All the marvel mcu films have risk and so are the dc dceu films.
Some more risker then others of course.
There is really no such thing as making a safe film to begin with for example.Films from  wb dc and marvel,disney marvel and other marvel films not from  disney are a risk,but i will say the dceu is not has risk taking as the mcu.
The upcoming avengers film is a big risk for example if you look at the budget and  the second one too because they shooting back to back.
That's way more of a risk then any dceu film and more ambitious.
Plus disney has made rated r films,just not with disney label in front of the movies.
Edited-



> The dceu was getting lighter however and will get lighter.
> 
> I think marvel mcu is more ambitious and take more risk then the dceu.(plus they have shows,ones shots,related comics etc..)
> The mcu just happens to be better at it because of better planning and other factors.
> The mcu films have more varied tones and stories and are stronger films on average then the dceu films.
> Of course most mcu films are not action comedies like some like to  say here.
> The mcu shows  iron fist are the least liked in mcu but will be getting still a second season and most folks who watched it still liked it.It has the highest rating of netflix mcu shows
> Inhumans was liked the least but most folks watching it still liked it and has okay viewership ratings.It may still get a second season.
> Most folks liked BVS but not as much has the other dceu films.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I can't believe we are still talking about DCEU Kal being" Man of Murder."  Jesus it's been 4 years. Get over it people. 

It doesn't matter anyway I guess. It's becoming more unlikely  Cavill will get to play Supes again.That really pisses me off.

----------


## mace11

> DCEU has been branded old school critics will never like it.


The critics like wonder woman.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> The critics like wonder woman.


Exactly. This is where the whole "critics have it in for the DCEU" theory just falls apart. If every DC movie is destined to be torn to shreds by critics, then why was Wonder Woman lauded? In fact, its even likely that the critics wanted Justice League to be good because Wonder Woman set the new standard.

----------


## Jabare

> This IS not true.
> All the marvel mcu films have risk and so are the dceu films.
> There is really no such thing as safe film to begin with,but i will say the dceu is not as risk taking as the mcu.
> The upcoming avengers film is a big risk for example if you look at the budget and  the second one too because they shooting back to back.
> That's way more of risk then any dceu film and more ambitious  .
> Plus disney has made rated r films,just not with disney label in front of the movies.
> Edited-


Marvel films have risk thats inherent in all movies, but they are formulaic, especially after phase 1, save the films I mentioned that semi-bork the model and conventions.

Disney is a huge company that his children and adult media endeavors under its belt its just how they market and brand certain things.


DCEU from the nature of when they released their films and the current media landscape coupled with the approach they took had inherently more risk to them and you see this in the results.

Superhero films have big budgets. The first Avengers is a risk. Infinity War isn't a risk. Disney knows what it's doing. They work hard at perfecting their craft. They are helmed by an accomplished executive who has kept the voice and focus on point. Marvel broke ground from 2008 to 2012 and they taken some risks since than, but this is still uncharted territory that they have cultivated. Avengers Infinity War is going to be a smash hit just like Star Wars is. Marvel's cut their risk significantly by doing the appropriate leg work before hand and garnering the praise and positive press they have for years. There are so many different facets into movie making, but a Goliath like Disney is better equipped to handle this than most other organizations.

I mean Warner Brothers was almost bought out twice in the last 3 years if the FCC didn't block it.





> The critics like wonder woman.


yes but look at how and why

----------


## Carabas

> they made 40 minutes of cuts so....


It's like almost 100% of the bits from the trailer I liked, that made me decide to go and see it initially, before coming into this thread.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> yes but look at how and why


Because it was a well-written, well-directed, well-acted film chocked full of plot and character development.

----------


## Jabare

> I barely watched any trailers so this is all extra shocking to me, that shot of Steppenwolf under the dark red sky is so atmospheric like something like that in the actual film would have sold him more. The farm scene alone in the last trailer is so much more beautifully shot it's unbelievable.


To be fair to Warner this movie probably needed a little more time. Zack Snyder went through the terrible tragedy of his daughters suicide and had to walk away. Whedon came in with 6 months or less to retool and reshoot. I think given that things still worked but certain scenes were cut a certain way or not shot as they probably could or should have been to facilitate a 120 minute film.

I'm a little surprised Warner didn't have reshoots scheduled. Marvel builds them into the plan. When your spending this much money and banking on this much return. This isn't something you want to rush and will usually have to tweak after you put together the initial footage to get it where you want to be.



Anyway time for Aquaman next year.

----------


## Jabare

> It's like almost 100% of the bits from the trailer I liked, that made me decide to go and see it initially, before coming into this thread.


Are you still going to see it.

For the most part I enjoyed the film because of the characters dynamic. I guess it depends what your expectations are ands what you want.

I enjoyed seeing the characters of Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg especially.

Still I get some peoples hangups with the film not all of them. I think the vast majority of superhero films have 1 to 5 big flaws in them, but you kind of just accept them for the sake of the film or story. Justice League doesn't differ in this regard, but its the same as everything else in the genre too me.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Anyway time for Aquaman next year.


Yup. Hopefully Wan can pull a Jenkins.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Rumor: DC Considering Pivot To Wonder Woman Universe Of Movies*




> The Ankler recently broke down the rough road to Justice League, along with the current corporate woes at WB and revealed that a number of options for the post-Justice League world of DC movies are on the table. Heres what they said.
> 
> Theres all sorts of scuttlebutt about the way forward for DC post-League: that Whedons Batgirl isunthinkable at this point; that theyll now turn the whole thing over to James Wan if Aquaman goes well; that they might just make it a Wonder Woman universe.


Source

----------


## Troian

If this movie opens between 90-110 mil there is no way in hell that it will clear 400 mil domestic. Or maybe even beat SS and BvS domestic numbers. This movie will not have WW type legs which itself was an exception. 

Damnnnn. I guess no teamups for a while.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's actually inaccurate. Common law defines murder as any (1) unlawful (2) killing (3) through criminal act or omission (4) of a human (5) by another human (6) with malice aforethought. That last element (malice aforethought) is interpreted very broadly and basically encompasses *any* malicious intent including the intent to kill, the intent to inflict serious bodily injury, or even just reckless indifference to someone's safety. So there is no premeditation required. Premeditation is just one way something can go from second-degree murder to first-degree murder.
> 
> Under common law definition, what Clark does could be seen as murder. He could bring up the defense that he was defending others, but in all honesty, he and Zod created the situation that put those people in danger in the first place and could be interpreted as his own recklessness.


Zod was the one attempting to commit genocide and was the one aiming a laser at the family.

There is no version in which what Clark does to Zod is considered murder.

----------


## Carabas

> Are you still going to see it.


Oh, I am so not.
I see maybe two or three movies per year in the theatre, and if I'm going there anytime soon, it'll be for Thor. Or Blade Runner.
If they release a more complete version I'll watch that on blue-ray. If they don't I'll eventually watch it on Netflix.

----------


## Bossace

> *Rumor: DC Considering Pivot To Wonder Woman Universe Of Movies*
> 
> 
> 
> Source



This makes me nervous that they might shut down Shazam, with zero recognition and with a tarnished DC name that can’t make JL even break 100 mil opening weekend can they honestly feel confident the audience will respond well to that? At least Aquaman has some GA fame recognition and being in JL helps. But after this mess I wouldn’t be surprised if they reconsidered Shazam with how obscure the title is to non fans who don’t know the character.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I must have missed the part where Clark was the one attempting to commit genocide and was the one aiming a laser at the family.
> 
> There is no version in which what Clark does to Zod is considered murder.


Clark didn't even think to deescalate the situation or pay any heed to civilians in the area. You know how in pretty much every action movie like this, the hero always says something like "we should lure [insert villain name here] away from the city" so that civilians aren't put in harms way? Why didn't Clark think to lure Zod away from Metropolis. Also, its been a while since I've seen it, but didn't that whole fight come after they'd already foiled Zod's plan? So, Clark basically engaged Zod in combat in the middle of a big city in the midst of millions of civilians, without any pressing reason to stay there, and didn't think "huh, I should get out of here so no one is in harms way."

These are all things that could point to Clark being reckless.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> That's actually inaccurate. Common law defines murder as any (1) unlawful (2) killing (3) through criminal act or omission (4) of a human (5) by another human (6) with malice aforethought. That last element (malice aforethought) is interpreted very broadly and basically encompasses *any* malicious intent including the intent to kill, the intent to inflict serious bodily injury, or even just reckless indifference to someone's safety. So there is no premeditation required. Premeditation is just one way something can go from second-degree murder to first-degree murder.
> 
> Under common law definition, what Clark does could be seen as murder. He could bring up the defense that he was defending others, but in all honesty, he and Zod created the situation that put those people in danger in the first place and could be interpreted as his own recklessness.


Yeah because it's his fault a genocidal madman whom he never knew existed until a day prior from a planet he never knew of came to earth and tried to destroy it . He should have sat down and had coffee with Zod and just talk it over. Or he should have just let Zod destroy Earth and not try to stop him.

Seriously the lengths people go to brand Cavill's Superman a murderer and put him in the same category as Zod or equate their actions never will cease to amaze me.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Yeah because it's his fault a genocidal madman whom he never knew existed until a day prior from a planet he never knew of came to earth and tried to destroy it . He should have sat down and had coffee with Zod and just talk it over. Or he should have just let Zod destroy Earth and not try to stop him.


I've already addressed how Clark could have deescalated the situation. He could have at least gotten Zod out of the city and away from everyone.

----------


## Jabare

> Yup. Hopefully Wan can pull a Jenkins.


I think the newer characters were the most interesting parts of the film. Don't get me wrong I love the Superman-esque action, but seeing Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg. I love how Aquaman swims can't wait for that film.

I want to see Flash and his supporting in this universe.

And I feel like we need to see this version of Cyborg at least two more times.

----------


## Lex Luthor

[QUOTE=Beantownbrown;3245482]*Rumor: DC Considering Pivot To Wonder Woman Universe Of Movies*



I hope this is true it'd  be the best thing to come out of the dceu

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> If this movie opens between 90-110 mil there is no way in hell that it will clear 400 mil domestic. Or maybe even beat SS and BvS domestic numbers. This movie will not have WW type legs which itself was an exception. 
> 
> Damnnnn. I guess no teamups for a while.


Last cbm in an already stacked year, documented production troubles. 2017 already even more stacked, so I'm worried for Aquaman. 

Could this be superhero fatigue finally showing?

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I've already addressed how Clark could have deescalated the situation. He could have at least gotten Zod out of the city and away from everyone.


That only works if you ignore the fact Zod was on a suicide run  and wouldnt have fallen for Superman's attempts to take him away from Metropolis. And ignore the fact that Supes was a farm boy who apparently never had to fight in his life until the day before and ignore the fact that Zod was a born and bred fighter and military tactition who was quickly  gaining mastery over his powers thus erasing any advantage Kal may have. Or the fact Supes wasn't fighting to kill Zod ( until the end) while Zod was trying to kill Clark .

It's pointless to debate all of this again. It's obvious the " man of Murder!" Side of the coin has won anyway. Cavill's will probably never play Supes again. Which is sad.

----------


## Barbatos666

I love how this tepid response to JL is being blamed on superhero fatigue.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Last cbm in an already stacked year, documented production troubles. 2017 already even more stacked, so I'm worried for Aquaman. 
> 
> Could this be superhero fatigue finally showing?


Thor has been doing well. Wonder Woman did surprisingly well. Spiderman Homecoming was also well recieved. This is just a DCEU problem of some kind but comic book movies are still popular and I dont see them ever not being popular as long as these companies play their cards right

----------


## Barbatos666

> *Rumor: DC Considering Pivot To Wonder Woman Universe Of Movies*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


I think there will be a lot of restructuring after this. Batman franchise will get its own corner and the rest will get their own.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> Last cbm in an already stacked year, documented production troubles. 2017 already even more stacked, so I'm worried for Aquaman. 
> 
> Could this be superhero fatigue finally showing?


The third Thor movie just had a 120 million dollar opening. I don’t think superhero fatigue is a real thing.

----------


## Korath

> Exactly. This is where the whole "critics have it in for the DCEU" theory just falls apart. If every DC movie is destined to be torn to shreds by critics, then why was Wonder Woman lauded? In fact, its even likely that the critics wanted Justice League to be good because Wonder Woman set the new standard.


Because it was very basic in its formula. The only (important yes, but still) innovation, was that the hero was a woman instead of a man. That's it. WW is still a very good film, but it didn't diverge from the basics of super-hero movies and the critics loved it. Like they like Marvel's "Zero risk-taking" approach for the movies.

Edit :Also, a good thing if Warner drops Whedon from the creative list. His style isn't suited for DC heroes, IMHO.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> That only works if you ignore the fact Zod was on a suicide run  and wouldnt have fallen for Superman's attempts to take him away from Metropolis. And ignore the fact that Supes was a farm boy who apparently never had to fight in his life until the day before and ignore the fact that Zod was a born and bred fighter and military tactition who was quickly  gaining mastery over his powers thus erasing any advantage Kal may have. Or the fact Supes wasn't fighting to kill Zod ( until the end) while Zod was trying to kill Clark .


I fail to see how any of that would have prevented Clark from at least trying to minimize the damage and drawing him away. One would think that that'd be common sense.

----------


## mace11

> Marvel films have risk thats inherent in all movies, but they are formulaic, especially after phase 1, save the films I mentioned that semi-bork the model and conventions.
> 
> Disney is a huge company that his children and adult media endeavors under its belt its just how they market and brand certain things.
> 
> 
> DCEU from the nature of when they released their films and the current media landscape coupled with the approach they took had inherently more risk to them and you see this in the results.
> 
> Superhero films have big budgets. The first Avengers is a risk. Infinity War isn't a risk. Disney knows what it's doing. They work hard at perfecting their craft. They are helmed by an accomplished executive who has kept the voice and focus on point. Marvel broke ground from 2008 to 2012 and they taken some risks since than, but this is still uncharted territory that they have cultivated. Avengers Infinity War is going to be a smash hit just like Star Wars is. Marvel's cut their risk significantly by doing the appropriate leg work before hand and garnering the praise and positive press they have for years. There are so many different facets into movie making, but a Goliath like Disney is better equipped to handle this than most other organizations.
> 
> I mean Warner Brothers was almost bought out twice in the last 3 years if the FCC didn't block it.


Of course Disney and marvel knows what they are  doing but Avengers infinity war is still a big risk and that's a risk for Disney.

Avengers: Infinity War Is a Heist Movie About Stealing Infinity Stones



> With “Infinity War,” the biggest new element to the movie is Thanos and the fact that he’s entering the storytelling in a very bold, strong way, to the degree that he’s almost one of the leads. We’ve shaped an interesting narrative around him that in some ways leans heavily on a heist film in the fact that he’s going after the infinity stones in a much bolder, successful way than he has in the past. The entire movie has that energy of the bad guy being one step ahead of the heroes. We looked at a lot of movies that had that heist-style energy to them, [and] that brought some inspiration.﻿
> 
> Now that is an interesting idea. One of the significant risks of the superhero film scene is genre stagnation, and the energy and wit of a heist movie might be exactly what Avengers needs to break out of that trap. The Russo Brothers have already proven they have the chops for that sort of experimentation. Their first Marvel film was Captain America: The Winter Soldier, which brilliantly blended the tone of the MCU with a paranoiac, ‘70s-style spy thriller.


Read more here.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/avengers-inf...ing-1820042787


Here is a past article about upcoming risk mcu films.Of course some came out already.

5 Upcoming Marvel Movies That Are Huge Risks



> Because Marvel announces its movie schedule ten years in advance, I now have at least the next 5 summers of my life planned out. Marvel has proven it can take big risks and turn them into huge paydays, but it seems like they may be getting a little cocky. Here are the riskiest Marvel movies on the lineup.
> 
> Inhumans
> Doctor Strange
> Avengers: Infinity War Part 2
> I'm not against the idea of Infinity War being the inspiration for the Avengers finale. It's a huge, epic story, and it's the perfect way to cap off the initial run of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The risky thing about this movie is it being broken up into two different movies. Recently, there have been a string of big two part finales in movie series. Harry Potter, Twilight, and Hunger Games are all doing it with successful results. Unfortunately, there's also a lot more examples of this scheme not working out so great. There's a risk that Infinity War: Part 2 will end up being like The Matrix Revolutions or Back to the Future Part 3.
> Also, Infinity War: Part 2 will be the 21st movie in the cinematic universe. It's already a huge risk to make a series of movies based on the success of other movies. This movie is the second part to a movie that isn't being released for another 4 years. That's a long time in Hollywood. If any Marvel Cinematic Universe movie between now and then bombs, it could really take the steam out of Infinity War.
> 
> Thor: Ragnarkok
> Ant Man


You could read more here.
http://www.smosh.com/smosh-pit/artic...are-huge-risks


All this talk about the marvel formula.



> The only thing I can see is that the movies are a mix of humor and drama/pathos, which is how the comics are too, for the most part. I think this complaint mostly comes from people who want to see 'darker' films within the Marvel Universe.


Keep this mind,What ever marvel  is doing it's working.
Now let's talk and find out about the dc formula.


So what is the dc formula?
The dceu has a formula too.It will follow wonder woman and how things are done there.
The early dceu formula clearly was not working so wb/dc  is following the wonder woman formula that is inspired by the mcu.




> All franchises have some formula.....because it works, that is just business.


Times The DCEU Didn't Care | CBR



> Since its inception with 2013’s Man of Steel the DC Extended Universe (also known as the Justice League Universe) has courted controversy. The films have a fiercely loyal fan base who defend the films to the hilt and vociferously deny their shortcomings while, conversely a great many detractors look past the undeniable cinematic artistry on show in the films. Stalwart defenders insist that the current crop of DC films have more than the creation of entertaining popcorn fare on their agenda, while those who’ve never quite warmed to their particular flavor have decried them as being purposely ponderous, oblique and pessimistic.
> 
> One thing’s for sure, the cinematic output from Warner Bros. and DC is markedly different from its Marvel Studios equivalent, and rightly so. Nobody would buy Pepsi if it tasted exactly the same as Coke. Whether or not the DC formula works for you is simply a matter of preference, but the DCEU (like any cinematic franchise) most certainly has its peaks and valleys. For every moment of genuine artistic triumph there is something that frustrates in concept or execution. Thus, as we ready ourselves for the release of next month’s Justice League, let’s take a tour through the moments that have elated and exasperated audiences.


To read more open link
https://www.cbr.com/times-the-dceu-didnt-care/

Here below is talking about the new dc formula.

DC Entertainment Loosening its Reigns on the DCEU’s Interconnected Film Universe



> When we sit down to watch a Marvel movie, we expect one thing for sure: This movie will be connected to another Marvel movie. Marvel is now a “Disney owned” brand, pumping out super reliable and exciting Marvel content film after film. As of next year, it will be a decade that the former comic book label has been developing their own cinematic formula–down to a T, I might add. It’s just another day at work at Marvel Studios to pump out films at a staggering rate, which are all part of a beyond successful multi billion dollar interconnected cinematic universe.
> 
> The DC cinematic universe, on the other hand–now, that’s a different story.
> Today, Vulture  featured an interview with several WB/DC execs, talking about the new approach to their own stable of DCEU (DC Extended Universe) films. The studio expresses no interest in scrapping the idea of a Marvel type universe altogether. However, there is a major difference in approach from Marvel: DC doesn’t want their filmmakers to always make “a movie about another movie” as Chief Creative Officer and DC Comics legend, Geoff Johns puts it.  
> 
> From DC Entertainment president, Diane Nelson: Our intention, certainly, moving forward is using the continuity to help make sure nothing is diverging in a way that doesn’t make sense, but there’s no insistence upon an overall story line or interconnectivity in that universe.
> 
> Abraham Riesman, from the same piece in Vulture points out this summer’s Wonder Woman as proof in the new DC formula puddin’: Wonder Woman outearned every other movie this summer while scoring a 92 percent on Rotten Tomatoes — higher than nearly every Marvel movie. And one of the keys, as Nelson and her execs saw it, was the fact that it more or less told the viewer to ignore the rest of the universe and just focus on what was in front of them. There was a tiny nod to Batman v Superman, but that was it.
> 
> What do you think about the new DCEU formula? Do you think DC top brass like Johns and Nelson are taking the right approach? Or do you think they should lean more toward the Marvel cinematic method? Please comment below or post to social media! @ComicBookIntl on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram


To read more open link here.
http://comicbookintl.com/2017/09/dc-...film-universe/



I Guess you ignored this too.


More Than Just The Same: MCU Head Kevin Feige Says All Marvel Movies Are 'Relatively Different'
https://moviepilot.com/p/kevin-feige...ticism/4414149


Why Marvel’s Success Story is More Than Just a ‘Formula’
http://screenrant.com/marvel-movie-formula-brand/

Note-most of the mcu movies if i could recall do not have world  ending events by the ways.



The Marvel Formula is why Critics hate DC? - YouTube


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUFPNdbRHQ

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I wonder if Snyder now regrets not delying the film. (If WB were telling the truth).

----------


## Korath

Also, if Ben Affleck will truly retire, I would like him to do so in The Batman and pass the cowl to a Dick Grayson played by Jake Gyllenhaal. Warner must avoid at all cost changing the actor and trying to pretend that nothing happened, especially when in-comic stories have had Dick as Batman.

----------


## mace11

Here is another interesting video.

Will Marvel & Disney Ruin the X-Men as Fans Suggest?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17XgLJpc-hY

----------


## Jokerz79

> Because it was very basic in its formula. The only (important yes, but still) innovation, was that the hero was a woman instead of a man. That's it. WW is still a very good film, but it didn't diverge from the basics of super-hero movies and the critics loved it. Like they like Marvel's "Zero risk-taking" approach for the movies.
> 
> Edit :Also, a good thing if Warner drops Whedon from the creative list. His style isn't suited for DC heroes, IMHO.


It did well because the reason the MCU, Fox Marvel, and Sony Marvel as also their own TV shows because BvS, SS, and JL all got hatcheted by WB in editing and that's the real issue IMHO.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Last cbm in an already stacked year, documented production troubles. 2017 already even more stacked, so I'm worried for Aquaman. 
> 
> Could this be superhero fatigue finally showing?


The top 10 2017 highest grossing movies will include 4 CBM.  That's pretty solid.

I wouldn't say 2018 is stacked with CBM since 3 are coming from Fox.  WB should have had at least 2 CBM out instead of one.  Aquaman is safe.  X-Men opens in November but I don't think there's a lot of buzz for that one.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Because it was very basic in its formula. The only (important yes, but still) innovation, was that the hero was a woman instead of a man. That's it. WW is still a very good film, but it didn't diverge from the basics of super-hero movies and the critics loved it. Like they like Marvel's "Zero risk-taking" approach for the movies.
> 
> Edit :Also, a good thing if Warner drops Whedon from the creative list. His style isn't suited for DC heroes, IMHO.


The only "formula" there was in Wonder Woman was that it actually had a plot. And yes, all the Marvel movies are guilty of having that specific "formula." The thing that makes the MCU films and Wonder Woman good was the fact that there was an actual progression of a story throughout each scene and that thread tied all the scenes together. But, that's something that *every* movie should have. BvS and SS watch like a random selection of moments bound together.

----------


## Punisher007

It seems like WB have a profound inability to understand exactly WHAT the complaints are all about. 

"Well many people complained that BVS was a dour miserable slog to get through, and that the tone didn't fit? Well lets just mess with SS to try and sell it as more jokey/quippy." 

This of course ignores the fact that A. SS was one film that SHOULD have probably been darker/more gritty given the characters/subject matter, and B. The audience will go for a darker CBM IF it's done well. And that was the big complaint about BVS from many, it simply wasn't done well. 

"Well many complained that BVS was poorly-paced, poorly-edited, poorly-plotted, poorly-structured, meandering, etc? Well lets just make JL as short as possible." 
Of course this ignores the fact that it wasn't so much the length that people complained with BVS, but more the pacing, editing, and the fact that many scenes didn't feel like they really needed to be there, etc. 

Also the audience has shown that they will sit through longer CBM's IF said audience finds them good. The Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises were both over 2 and a half hours long, the last two Captain America films were pushing 2 and a half hours. Wonder Woman and The Avengers were both like 2 hours 20 minutes, etc. It's not the length, it's how you use it. Cutting the film down to under two hours isn't going to fix the problem in an of itself (Thor: The Dark World had a similar problem as well). Especially not if it hurts the pacing of the film and if feels like necessary scenes have been removed (both of which seem to be true here). 

Basically WB misinterprets the backlash constantly and tries to "course correct" in the wrong ways and focuses on the wrong things.

----------


## Korath

if you don't see a plot in MoS and BvS, the fault is on you, not the movies. Specially the second, which goes out of its way to explain everything, only not in bland exposition.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I fail to see how any of that would have prevented Clark from at least trying to minimize the damage and drawing him away. One would think that that'd be common sense.


He DID try to draw him away. Several freaking times. It didn't work because Zod had the same powers as he did AND much more experience in fighting.

That brief moment when Superman was punching Zod through the air? He was punching him in a STRAIGHT LINE! Almost like he was trying to punch him straight out of the city, or something! If all he cared about was doing damage to Zod, he would've punched him toward the ground. 

The Smallville fight? Watch carefully. Several times he tried to take to the sky, thus leading Faora and co. away from the town. They kept catching him and dragging him down to the ground. 

But hey! Don't take my word for it! See for yourself!

----------


## Bossace

Now that I think about it, I personally wish we got more time with Superman post MoS like another movie. I know 18 months passed between MoS and BvS but I feel like the death of Superman and world reaction to his death shown in JL would have made more sense to me and held more weight because the whole world is mourning over a guy who was around only 18 months and I have no idea the extent of the things he’s done or how profound to cause this reaction, he beat Zod and Doomsday both on American soil yet I want to know the effect he had on the world more visually those 18 months, now that’s a movie I’d watch for Superman if they could go back and do that first before BvS.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> I wonder if Snyder now regrets not delying the film. (If WB were telling the truth).


Snyder doesn’t make those type of decisions.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> if you don't see a plot in MoS and BvS, the fault is on you, not the movies. Specially the second, which goes out of its way to explain everything, only not in bland exposition.


 The fault is on the writers and creators for not writing their story well

----------


## Ishmael

> He DID try to draw him away. Several freaking times. It didn't work because Zod had the same powers as he did AND much more experience in fighting.
> 
> That brief moment when Superman was punching Zod through the air? He was punching him in a STRAIGHT LINE! Almost like he was trying to punch him straight out of the city, or something! If all he cared about was doing damage to Zod, he would've punched him toward the ground. 
> 
> The Smallville fight? Watch carefully. Several times he tried to take to the sky, thus leading Faora and co. away from the town. They kept catching him and dragging him down to the ground.


Thanks for posting this.  I've said this multiple times in arguments about that film.  

I also liked how they portrayed the military as being pro-active and trying to actually contain the threat but being overwhelmed.  Rather than just deferring to Superman and sitting on the sidelines, they actually have a prominent role to play.  One of the better parts of MoS in my opinion.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Snyder doesn’t make those type of decisions.


WB said they asked Snyder if he wanted them to delay the film while he was dealing with his family tradgey and Snyder said no to that and told them to still aim for November. 

Of course we have to treat WB as an unreliable narrator here.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It seems like WB have a profound inability to understand exactly WHAT the complaints are all about. 
> 
> "Well many people complained that BVS was a dour miserable slog to get through, and that the tone didn't fit? Well lets just mess with SS to try and sell it as more jokey/quippy." 
> 
> This of course ignores the fact that A. SS was one film that SHOULD have probably been darker/more gritty given the characters/subject matter, and B. The audience will go for a darker CBM IF it's done well. And that was the big complaint about BVS from many, it simply wasn't done well. 
> 
> "Well many complained that BVS was poorly-paced, poorly-edited, poorly-plotted, poorly-structured, meandering, etc? Well lets just make JL as short as possible." 
> Of course this ignores the fact that it wasn't so much the length that people complained with BVS, but more the pacing, editing, and the fact that many scenes didn't feel like they really needed to be there, etc. 
> 
> ...


Lol it's pretty hilarious how they tried to make JL more critic and audience friendly and looks like they've failed at both. 

But like you and others have said they'll probably learn the *wrong* lesson here again. I hope they leave Aquaman alone.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

"Maybe the problem with 'Justice League' is that it's not enough like 'Batman v Superman'"
http://mashable.com/2017/11/18/justi...v-superman.amp

And suddenly the penny drops...

----------


## mace11

Justice League Box Office - DCEU Reboot or Revision?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCKqgCMXouA

----------


## Johnny

> It seems like WB have a profound inability to understand exactly WHAT the complaints are all about. 
> 
> "Well many people complained that BVS was a dour miserable slog to get through, and that the tone didn't fit? Well lets just mess with SS to try and sell it as more jokey/quippy." 
> 
> This of course ignores the fact that A. SS was one film that SHOULD have probably been darker/more gritty given the characters/subject matter, and B. The audience will go for a darker CBM IF it's done well. And that was the big complaint about BVS from many, it simply wasn't done well. 
> 
> "Well many complained that BVS was poorly-paced, poorly-edited, poorly-plotted, poorly-structured, meandering, etc? Well lets just make JL as short as possible." 
> Of course this ignores the fact that it wasn't so much the length that people complained with BVS, but more the pacing, editing, and the fact that many scenes didn't feel like they really needed to be there, etc. 
> 
> ...


This. All of it. They clearly listen to the feedback but always seem to misinterpret it in the worst possible way to where the "course correcting" only ends up creating more and more problems. Their attempts to "fix" things always have them digging themselves deeper which is both funny and sad.

----------


## Punisher007

> I've already addressed how Clark could have deescalated the situation. He could have at least gotten Zod out of the city and away from everyone.


It wouldn't have worked, and if you pay attention they tell you that:

Zod: "I'm going to make them suffer Kal-el, these humans that you have adopted.  I'm going to take them from you one by one."

He couldn't have been more clear, his ONLY goal at that point was to make Superman suffer by killing all of the humans.  So here's what would have happened.

-Superman flies away.
-Zod essentially goes "later loser, makes it all the easier."
-Zod then proceeds to kill everyone left in Metropolis.
-Superman's an idiot.

Also he was barely surviving for most of the actual fight.

Again you assume that he's a god who can do anything, and ignore evidence to the contrary.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It wouldn't have worked, and if you pay attention they tell you that:
> 
> Zod: "I'm going to make them suffer Kal-el, these humans that you have adopted.  I'm going to take them from you one by one."
> 
> He couldn't have been more clear, his ONLY goal at that point was to make Superman suffer by killing all of the humans.  So here's what would have happened.
> 
> -Superman flies away.
> -Zod essentially goes "later loser, makes it all the easier."
> -Zod then proceeds to kill everyone left in Metropolis.
> ...


How about simply wrapping your hands around Zod and flying away as fast as you can? Even if you don't get too far, you could still minimize damage.

Also, people are making the assumption that Zod was so much more skilled than Clark. Uh, Clark's been living with these powers for decades. He should have a much better handle on his actual abilities than Zod does.

----------


## Ishmael

> How about simply wrapping your hands around Zod and flying away as fast as you can? Even if you don't get too far, you could still minimize damage.
> 
> Also, people are making the assumption that Zod was so much more skilled than Clark. Uh, Clark's been living with these powers for decades. He should have a much better handle on his actual abilities than Zod does.


Except that Zod -- as he says in the movie -- has been trained as a warrior (not learned how to use his powers on a farm, I believe the quote went).  

Zod was a soldier who clearly has had lots of fighting experience.  One of the things that gets constantly lost in these debates about MoS is how the fight in Smallvile was Superman's first fight in his life.  He has no experience in these things, and does barely hang on throughout most of it and the sequel in Metropolis.

----------


## DragonPiece

Justice League was amazing, really don't get the hate. 

My own ranking: Justice League>WW>BVS Extended>Mos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>Suicide Squad

----------


## mace11

Re: Box Office Battle -- Thor Ragnarok vs. Justice League
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...528969&page=31

----------


## manofsteel1979

> He DID try to draw him away. Several freaking times. It didn't work because Zod had the same powers as he did AND much more experience in fighting.
> 
> That brief moment when Superman was punching Zod through the air? He was punching him in a STRAIGHT LINE! Almost like he was trying to punch him straight out of the city, or something! If all he cared about was doing damage to Zod, he would've punched him toward the ground. 
> 
> The Smallville fight? Watch carefully. Several times he tried to take to the sky, thus leading Faora and co. away from the town. They kept catching him and dragging him down to the ground. 
> 
> But hey! Don't take my word for it! See for yourself!


It's pointless to debate. They will believe what they want to. Facts don't matter. It's simply a case of the dreaded " not muh Superman" syndrome.

----------


## robreedwrites

So, I just got out of the film. I'll try to make a longer post when I have more time, but I really enjoyed it. I wouldn't say it's good, but I had fun.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Now that I think about it, I personally wish we got more time with Superman post MoS like another movie. I know 18 months passed between MoS and BvS but I feel like the death of Superman and world reaction to his death shown in JL would have made more sense to me and held more weight because the whole world is mourning over a guy who was around only 18 months and I have no idea the extent of the things he’s done or how profound to cause this reaction, he beat Zod and Doomsday both on American soil yet I want to know the effect he had on the world more visually those 18 months, now that’s a movie I’d watch for Superman if they could go back and do that first before BvS.


If you look and pay careful attention to BvS they do alude to many Adventures and saves and things but you'll blink and you will miss it. It's not front and center unfortunately.

And I agree, we should have gotten another stand alone Superman movie, but between the box office not blowing the doors off and the " not muh Superman/man of Murder/ hobo of steel " malcontents actively trying to sabotage anything that didn't follow the Donner mould, and Disney buying Lucasfilm and Marvel just recently,anf the Harry Potter done and Nolan's Batman franchise wrapping up,Warner's overreacted and mandated that MOS 2 be transformed into BvS and launch an extended universe rather than continuing this new incarnation of Superman in earnest BEFORE doing an extended universe. 

Now we'll be lucky if we get Cavill guest star as Supes in Shazam ( IF it gets made). Warner's will no doubt panic and over correct and scrap everything but WW and will probably fudge that up to. Apparently that's what WB always does.

----------


## Bossace

> If you look and pay careful attention to BvS they do alude to many Adventures and saves and things but you'll blink and you will miss it. It's not front and center unfortunately.
> 
> And I agree, we should have gotten another stand alone Superman movie, but between the box office not blowing the doors off and the " not muh Superman/man of Murder/ hobo of steel " malcontents actively trying to sabotage anything that didn't follow the Donner mould, and Disney buying Marvel,Warner's overreacted and mandated that MOS 2 be transformed into BvS and launch an extended universe rather than continuing this new incarnation of Superman in earnest BEFORE doing an extended universe.
> 
> Now we'll be lucky if we get Cavill guest star as Supes in Shazam ( IF it gets made). Warner's will no doubt panic and over correct and scrap everything but WW and will probably fudge that up to. Apparently that's what WB always does.


Yea the bright shining cavil in JL would have been fun for a pre BVS MOS 2. And I’m also worried about Shazam, I’m worried all these smaller movies now besides Aquaman due to it being in post production will be reassessed. Shazam is a literal unknown publically and they don’t have the brand trust to pull a guardians. I have a feeling all these films will be reshuffled or canceled now and we’ll only see the tent pole heroes from now on, as much as I want a flash movie and other heroes I’m worried this poor performance of what was supposed to be s giant film flipped the whole damn table.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Except that Zod -- as he says in the movie -- has been trained as a warrior (not learned how to use his powers on a farm, I believe the quote went).  
> 
> Zod was a soldier who clearly has had lots of fighting experience.  One of the things that gets constantly lost in these debates about MoS is how the fight in Smallvile was Superman's first fight in his life.  He has no experience in these things, and does barely hang on throughout most of it and the sequel in Metropolis.


Being trained in military tactics does not really translate into being fully adept at controlling brand new abilities. That's like saying some nobody should be fully capable of piloting Tony's Iron Man armor. Again, Clark has had these abilities his whole life. A definite advantage over Zod. So Clark's not as outclassed in this fight as people want to make him out to be.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> "Maybe the problem with 'Justice League' is that it's not enough like 'Batman v Superman'"
> http://mashable.com/2017/11/18/justi...v-superman.amp
> 
> And suddenly the penny drops...


I liked Justice League...But this article isn't wrong.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's pointless to debate. They will believe what they want to. Facts don't matter. It's simply a case of the dreaded " not muh Superman" syndrome.


OR, MoS just isn't as good as people want it to be. Its not awful and can in fact be deemed passable, but there are plenty of problems with it. Clark killing Zod is just one.

----------


## Agent Z

> Being trained in military tactics does not really translate into being fully adept at controlling brand new abilities. That's like saying some nobody should be fully capable of piloting Tony's Iron Man armor. Again, Clark has had these abilities his whole life. A definite advantage over Zod. So Clark's not as outclassed in this fight as people want to make him out to be.


There is a difference between using your powers for rescue work and using them in combat.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> 


A lot of those "attempts" take some imagination on the part of the person analyzing them. For one, they look more like him trying to dodge blows. And second, that last "attempt" has Clark punching Zod right into a train.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> There is a difference between using your powers for rescue work and using them in combat.


Well, one would think a superhero would want to *not* cause an inordinate amount of civilian casualties.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Being trained in military tactics does not really translate into being fully adept at controlling brand new abilities. That's like saying some nobody should be fully capable of piloting Tony's Iron Man armor. Again, Clark has had these abilities his whole life. A definite advantage over Zod. So Clark's not as outclassed in this fight as people want to make him out to be.


He was quickly gaining mastery over said powers and...

This is a pointless circular debate. 

You know what? You and the other man of murder people are right. Cavill's Superman was a cold blooded murdering bastard and Zod was the real hero of MOS. You are all right. I was wrong to support a different take on Superman that ultimately gave us the classic Superman anyway,. But it doesn't matter. It's pretty much over now.

IF we get another Supes movie it'll probably be a retread of Donner for the uptenth time that will also crash and burn Because a vocal minority will bitch and bitch and nitpick it to death until WB overreacts and screws that one up  too. So congrats guys.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Did Arthur ask Mera about the Trident? If not that's another cut scene to add to the ever growing list.

----------


## Bossace

> Did Arthur ask Mera about the Trident? If not that's another cut scene to add to the ever growing list.


There was a “I need something from you” line and then that’s all we saw

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> He was quickly gaining mastery over said powers and...
> 
> This is a pointless circular debate. 
> 
> You know what? You and the other man of murder people are right. *Cavill's Superman was a cold blooded murdering bastard and Zod was the real hero of MOS*. You are all right. I was wrong to support a different take on Superman that ultimately gave us the classic Superman anyway,. But it doesn't matter. 
> 
> IF we get another Supes movie it'll probably be a retread of Donner for the uptenth time that will also crash and burn Because a vocal minority will bitch and bitch and nitpick it to death until WB overreacts and screws that one up . So congrats guys.


Whoah, whoah, whoah. Nobody said Clark was cold-blooded and nobody said Zod was the real hero of MoS. And nobody here wants to see these movies fail or an end to the DCEU and Cavill's Superman. But, the movies do need to start being better in terms of writing and plot development. One of the bigger problems here is the jumping around from place to place without settling down on one scene for more than like two minutes. In other words, these films are incredibly choppy and all over the place. That, IMO, is the main problem that needs to be addressed.

But, yes, one thing that Superman should always be is an optimistic symbol of hope. And honestly, I think Cavill does that well. But the plot of the films need to give him more of a chance to show *that* side of Superman, not one line saying the "S stands for hope" and then he's snapping a guy's neck and crying in the middle of a train station.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> That's actually inaccurate. Common law defines murder as any (1) unlawful (2) killing (3) through criminal act or omission (4) of a human (5) by another human (6) with malice aforethought. That last element (malice aforethought) is interpreted very broadly and basically encompasses *any* malicious intent including the intent to kill, the intent to inflict serious bodily injury, or even just reckless indifference to someone's safety. So there is no premeditation required. Premeditation is just one way something can go from second-degree murder to first-degree murder.
> 
> Under common law definition, what Clark does could be seen as murder. He could bring up the defense that he was defending others, but in all honesty, he and Zod created the situation that put those people in danger in the first place and could be interpreted as his own recklessness.


I hate pulling rank but I'm an attorney and your interpretation doesn't work because Superman fails several elements. Malice aforethought fails completely because if it were as broad as you were describing, any purposeful killing would contain malice aforethought since the intent to kill or injure is implicit in the act, which makes no sense. And here the killing was not done through a criminal act. Hell neither is even human. Not to mention the fact no jurisdiction uses the common law elements directly. And you left out one important element, and that is that it is *without justification.* Under no legitimate circumstances could he be lawfully convicted of murder because he did so to save innocent human lives.




> OR, MoS just isn't as good as people want it to be.


Or, shocker, people have different tastes and opinions and for some reason you love digging up tired old arguments in a thread based on a franchise you don't even like for some reason. It's bizarre.

----------


## Agent Z

> Well, one would think a superhero would want to *not* cause an inordinate amount of civilian casualties.


Well Zod isn't a superhero so...

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well Zod isn't a superhero so...


Heh. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Zod is 100% to blame and Clark isn't, but I keep reading posts that don't agree foe some reason.  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if we'll ever see all the scenes they cut from the movie.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I wonder if we'll ever see all the scenes they cut from the movie.


Maybe some cut ones, probably not any reshot ones.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I wonder if we'll ever see all the scenes they cut from the movie.


It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Heh. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Zod is 100% to blame and Clark isn't, but I keep reading posts that don't agree foe some reason.


Because it's Supermans fault Zod is a genocidal maniac bent on murdering as many people as possible. Supes doesn't smile enough, which makes Zod grumpy or something.

Oh and killing Zod is okay as long as it's accompanied by a triumphant John Williams score ,and instead of snapping his neck quickly to save innocents in a no win senario , Supes has to depower him, crush his hand then pick him up by his belt and give him a smirking " tsk tsk" look before tossing him into an icey death in a bottomless pit. Then it's okay and not " murder". It's fun and charming! 

At least that's how I understand it.  :Smile:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I hate pulling rank but I'm an attorney and your interpretation doesn't work because Superman fails several elements. Malice aforethought fails completely because if it were as broad as you were describing, any purposeful killing would contain malice aforethought since the intent to kill or injure is implicit in the act, which makes no sense. And here the killing was not done through a criminal act. Hell neither is even human. Not to mention the fact no jurisdiction uses the common law elements directly. And you left out one important element, and that is that it is *without justification.* Under no legitimate circumstances could he be lawfully convicted of murder because he did so to save innocent human lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, shocker, people have different tastes and opinions and for some reason you love digging up tired old arguments in a thread based on a franchise you don't even like for some reason. It's bizarre.


Don't use logic. You are wrong. We are all wrong. Because " muh Superman" rules everything.

----------


## Colossus1980

> I wonder if we'll ever see all the scenes they cut from the movie.


I wonder if they will do a JL with an added 20-30 minutes to bump up sales.  Talking a month down the road.  Didn't they do that with SS?

Either way there will be 2 dvds out for sale, theatrical and director's cut.

----------


## Robotman

I’m thinking at the end of the day Justice League’s disappointing box office has a lot to do with people who either love or hate Snyder’s style. 

People who love his directing style seemed to be turned off that this film looked “too jokey” and “looks like they’re just copying Marvel”. Plus the inaccurate belief by many fans that WB simply kicked him off the film and replaced him with Whedon. I’m sure this made die hard Snyder fans stay home this weekend. 

Then there are the people who hate Snyder’s film making style. While Justice League has a much different tone, it still looks very much like a Zach Snyder film on the surface. The washed out colors and bleak overtones (even though we know it wasn’t bleak). It definitely looks like it takes place in the same universe as BvS. Which may have been enough to keep some viewers away from the theaters.

Obviously it’s bad for business to create a style that divides fans and the general public. 

The real test will be Aquaman next winter (I really wish they could get summer releases for their superhero flicks), which I’m sure will look tonally very different. Will fans give the character a clean slate or will people stay home because the DCEU itself now has such a negative stigma with the movie watching public?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I wonder if they will do a JL with an added 20-30 minutes to bump up sales.  Talking a month down the road.  Didn't they do that with SS?
> 
> Either way there will be 2 dvds out for sale, theatrical and director's cut.


To my knowledge, Suicide Squad was never rereleased in theaters. The Ultimate Cut of BvS did get some free fan screenings if I recall correctly.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Did Arthur ask Mera about the Trident? If not that's another cut scene to add to the ever growing list.


Pretty sure he was supposed to get it in the scene with *spoilers:*
 the Dead King, the one which Snyder posted on social media ages ago
*end of spoilers* such a pity they cut it.

----------


## Colossus1980

Not fair.  SS got worse reviews and made more money.  Where's the Justice in that?

----------


## Bossace

> Not fair.  SS got worse reviews and made more money.  Where's the Justice in that?


Maybe thanksgiving will be more forgiving with people holding out til the holiday weekend? Still worried coco will beat it next week

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I wonder if they will do a JL with an added 20-30 minutes to bump up sales.  Talking a month down the road.  Didn't they do that with SS?
> 
> Either way there will be 2 dvds out for sale, theatrical and director's cut.


I'd love to see them release an extended cut in theaters in February once Star Wars runs its course and before any other major film release, but I doubt it.

The best we can hope for is that JL at least breaks even ( I read 600 mill is the benchmark for that) and that it does well on the home market. Then we have to hope Aquaman does ok, then hopefully Shazam gets made and Henry's Supes gets a good showing there and it does well.  Then WW 2 continues the streak.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I’m thinking at the end of the day Justice League’s disappointing box office has a lot to do with people who either love or hate Snyder’s style. 
> 
> People who love his directing style seemed to be turned off that this film looked “too jokey” and “looks like they’re just copying Marvel”. Plus the inaccurate belief by many fans that WB simply kicked him off the film and replaced him with Whedon. I’m sure this made die hard Snyder fans stay home this weekend. 
> 
> Then there are the people who hate Snyder’s film making style. While Justice League has a much different tone, it still looks very much like a Zach Snyder film on the surface. The washed out colors and bleak overtones (even though we know it wasn’t bleak). It definitely looks like it takes place in the same universe as BvS. Which may have been enough to keep some viewers away from the theaters.
> 
> Obviously it’s bad for business to create a style that divides fans and the general public. 
> 
> The real test will be Aquaman next winter (I really wish they could get summer releases for their superhero flicks), which I’m sure will look tonally very different. Will fans give the character a clean slate or will people stay home because the DCEU itself now has such a negative stigma with the movie watching public?


It's sad but true. I think had Snyder stayed on all the way and it was 100 percent his movie, it would be doing better. Not as well as BvS overall maybe, but I have a feeling we'd still have at least a 110 mill opening. Snyder's fans are loyal.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Because it's Supermans fault Zod is a genocidal maniac bent on murdering as many people as possible. Supes doesn't smile enough, which makes Zod grumpy or something.
> 
> Oh and killing Zod is okay as long as it's accompanied by a triumphant John Williams score ,and instead of snapping his neck quickly to save innocents in a no win senario , Supes has to depower him, crush his hand then pick him up by his belt and give him a smirking " tsk tsk" look before tossing him into an icey death in a bottomless pit. Then it's okay and not " murder". It's fun and charming! 
> 
> At least that's how I understand it.


I'm glad you understand it, because I surely don't.  :Smile:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Maybe thanksgiving will be more forgiving with people holding out til the holiday weekend? Still worried coco will beat it next week


I plan to see JL again Monday and probably later in this Thanksgiving week. It may be the only time until I'm an old man I'll see the JL on the big screen, so I'm gonna make the most of it.

----------


## Random killer x

I honestly don’t know why people are not seeing this movie. Almost everyone who has seen it either loved it or thought it was a really good movie. Do people really take what critics say seriously ? I mean people don’t have an opinion of their own anymore? 

If you are a fan of Marvel comics movies or comic book movies in general, who wouldn’t want to watch the biggest DC movie  in Justice League. This is the one you don’t miss, it’s not Doctor Strange or Ant-Man where you say “oh I’ll just skip this one”. I mean I thought DC finally got some momentum from Wonder Woman. I’m really worried what WB will do now because they seem to have no clue and are very itchy fingers when it comes to decision making.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's sad but true. I think had Snyder stayed on all the way and it was 100 percent his movie, it would be doing better. Not as well as BvS overall maybe, but I have a feeling we'd still have at least a 110 mill opening. Snyder's fans are loyal.


It would have been almost certainly a more, though still divisive, film had that been the case, IMO.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I'm glad you understand it, because I surely don't.


Only thing you need to understand is two words.

"Muh."

"Superman."

That's what it comes down to really.

----------


## Bossace

> I honestly dont know why people are not seeing this movie. Almost everyone who has seen it either loved it or thought it was a really good movie. Do people really take what critics say seriously ? I mean people dont have an opinion of their own anymore? 
> 
> If you are a fan of Marvel comics movies or comic book movies in general, who wouldnt want to watch the biggest DC movie  in Justice League. This is the one you dont miss, its not Doctor Strange or Ant-Man where you say oh Ill just skip this one. I mean I thought DC finally got some momentum from Wonder Woman. Im really worried what WB will do now because they seem to have no clue and are very itchy fingers when it comes to decision making.


As tickets and concessions get more expensive, especially for families, I think people look online see how word of mouth is and reviews are for movies before going to see them and making the investment. It could also be that BVS still left a bad taste in peoples mouths and felt not even WW being in this movie would make this movie worth it in their opinion. Its not people bowing  to reviewers just a general lack of interest.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I honestly don’t know why people are not seeing this movie. Almost everyone who has seen it either loved it or thought it was a really good movie. Do people really take what critics say seriously ? I mean people don’t have an opinion of their own anymore? 
> 
> If you are a fan of Marvel comics movies or comic book movies in general, who wouldn’t want to watch the biggest DC movie  in Justice League. This is the one you don’t miss, it’s not Doctor Strange or Ant-Man where you say “oh I’ll just skip this one”. I mean I thought DC finally got some momentum from Wonder Woman. I’m really worried what WB will do now because they seem to have no clue and are very itchy fingers when it comes to decision making.


If sane people with a commitment to this franchise were in charge, they wouldn't panic. They'd move ahead on Aquaman and trust Wan and not interfere, let Patty make WW 2 her way  and not interfere, move ahead on letting Matthew Vaughn take the reigns on a lower budget ( thinking 150- 175 million )stand alone Superman movie that uses where the character is at the end of JL, without WB interfering...

Sense a pattern there? 

However, they'll double down on their stupidity, butcher Aquaman, then panic and butcher WW 2 and we'll be lucky to have more Batman movies. Because that's Warner's

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Only thing you need to understand is two words.
> 
> "Muh."
> 
> "Superman."
> 
> That's what it comes down to really.


That I can understand. In fact, instead of all the tortured logic, just posting that instead from now on would be 100% more preferable.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> As tickets and concessions get more expensive, especially for families, I think people look online see how word of mouth is and reviews are for movies before going to see them and making the investment. It could also be that BVS still left a bad taste in people’s mouths and felt not even WW being in this movie would make this movie worth it in their opinion. It’s not people bowing  to reviewers just a general lack of interest.


Also, with Thor still out, CoCo still coming and of course the big release of The Last Jedi coming in Less than a month now, people's entertainment budgets are wearing thin. It may just be that JL is getting lost in the shuffle. Which is Sad. 

Maybe the people passing up JL now are waiting for the home release, especially if it's a more complete cut.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> It's sad but true. I think had Snyder stayed on all the way and it was 100 percent his movie, it would be doing better. Not as well as BvS overall maybe, but I have a feeling we'd still have at least a 110 mill opening. Snyder's fans are loyal.


Nope. It would've made little difference.

----------


## Random killer x

> If sane people with a commitment to this franchise were in charge, they wouldn't panic. They'd move ahead on Aquaman and trust Wan and not interfere, let Patty make WW 2 her way  and not interfere, move ahead on letting Matthew Vaughn take the reigns on a lower budget ( thinking 150- 175 million )stand alone Superman movie that uses where the character is at the end of JL, without WB interfering...
> 
> Sense a pattern there? 
> 
> However, they'll double down on their stupidity, butcher Aquaman, then panic and butcher WW 2 and we'll be lucky to have more Batman movies. Because that's Warner's


You would think WB learned their lesson from SS, just don’t interfere and butcher your movies or at least even listen to the fans when they say they enjoyed the extended cut from BVS more. It’s a miracle that Justice League turned out entertaining with all the changing it saw from two directors

----------


## Badou

I really don't get the idea that if Snyder had full control this movie would have been more successful. WB is in this situation because of how divisive Snyder's take on the characters, mainly Superman, have been in the public. It has been years now and we are still talking about the problems with MoS. Then WB decided to basically double down on his take with BvS and that was even more divisive. 

I think the Wonder Woman movie proved that WB should have taken their time and build up the characters individually. Slowly build up the hype while making sure they get the tone of the characters right so that most of the audience will buy in. Now I guess that is kind of their only option as I don't think they will rush out more big movies, other than SS. It is kind of weird to think of SS being their big focus going forward, but it was a big success for them from a pure numbers standpoint.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> You would think WB learned their lesson from SS, just don’t interfere and butcher your movies or at least even listen to the fans when they say they enjoyed the extended cut from BVS more. It’s a miracle that Justice League turned out entertaining with all the changing it saw from two directors


But it's a little more complicated than that: Warner's never really meddled with BvS during its production and let the director have carte blanche all the way to post-production but it's only closer to the film’s release that you could say they 'meddled' by mandating that the movie be cut down because  longer movies generally do poorly in repeat-viewings, especially given how heavy BvS was I can really see why they did that.   But its not  like they really gave Zack the short end of the stick since they not only let him release his intended  cut of the movie for home release  but kept him on for  Justice League when by all accounts they should've done away with given the baggage he would carry. 

Here's the thing: there is such thing as having_ too_ much creative control.   Yes, I am a big proponent of directors having as much creative room to breathe in as possible but sometimes visions for a film can be flawed as we saw with Ang Lee's Hulk--love or hate it that was an example of a studio that probably gave the director too much control as that film failed to connect with fans and critics and was a total bomb.  The studio wanted a more conventional, action-oriented film but capitulated to Ang Lee's insistence that it'd be a pyscho-drama--which  was appreciated but the end result results left much to be  desired. 

Its easy to blame the studio but the reality is that it's their asses that are on the line since they are ones who are paying for it and they need to see  revenues good enough to  please the shareholders.  You  have to  ask yourself if Warner's had allowed Snyder to release the movie in its three-hour form would it really do that well in the box office? Would it do better?  After leaving the theater after  watching BvS the first time with my fiancee she told that it  felt like she had just left out of a funeral.  I know people who had to make their kids leave the theater watching BvS because it was ''too scary'. I've even  had  people tell me they left the movie early because they either  thought it was too "dark" or "too long''.  

Marvel  has found a fine line between giving  creative freedom while still maintaining control of their properties.  Sure, Thor: Dark World happened and Edgar Wright left Ant-Man but Guardians is without question a James Gunn film. Iron Man 3  has so much of Shane Black's voice in it.  It's about  finding the middle-ground. 

The fact that Warner's had let Snyder come this far given the results shows they really a studio that respects their directors--perhaps to a fault.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Justice League was amazing, really don't get the hate. 
> 
> My own ranking: Justice League>WW>BVS Extended>Mos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>Suicide Squad


My ranking is exactly the same. I do think Wonder Woman is objectively a better film than JL but if we're talking personal favorites your rankings are exactly as my own. I disliked BvS a lot though so the one thing I'd change is all the ">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>" before SS. I thought BvS, MoS, and SS were each quite bad in different ways. I thought Wonder Woman was delightful but nothing beats out JL for me.

I almost feel like I finally got the comic book movie I wanted and it murdered the whole DCEU. As a trade, I'll take it. I'd long since given up on the unabashed joy and excitement I got from watching Justice League. I wish it had been much longer; while villain, story, and CG were all weak, my only serious complaint was how short it was. I wanted it to go on forever.

----------


## Buried Alien

I feel strongly that JUSTICE LEAGUE is paying the price for the sins of other movies, and isn't being given a fair chance to rise or fall on its own merits.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Angelo2113

> "Maybe the problem with 'Justice League' is that it's not enough like 'Batman v Superman'"
> http://mashable.com/2017/11/18/justi...v-superman.amp
> 
> And suddenly the penny drops...


As much as I enjoyed it, it wasn't Snyder's vision of a sequel and Justice League movie. I'll go into full detail after the weekend so everybody can see it so I don't post spoilers.

----------


## Robotman

Looks like WB CEO Kevin Tsujihara could start getting the fans wrath. 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...gue-reception/

Hell, if hes responsible for mandating that these films get chopped to shit than he deserves the scorn.

----------


## Angelo2113

Yeah, I honestly don't mind his position being questioned. Don't say you want the films to be director driven and then completely go against that. Either have faith in your directors and have their true vision presented or come straight out and say you're going to present these movies the way the company wants.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Looks like WB CEO Kevin Tsujihara could start getting the fan’s wrath. 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...gue-reception/
> 
> Hell, if he’s responsible for mandating that these films get chopped to shit than he deserves the scorn.


I hate when mess with the Directors visions it's my biggest complaint but also this means little WB had a pretty good year with Lego Batman, Wonder Woman, Dunkirk, Kong Skull Island, and It.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Here's a description of what was in the Snyder-cut that was different from the theatrical cut from a someone who saw the original film pre-Whedon on Reddit

And a Flash scene not included in the final cut( most likely from the Snyder cut) featuring Iris has been leaked.

----------


## Bossace

> Here's a description of what was in the Snyder-cut that was different from the theatrical cut from a someone who saw the original film pre-Whedon on Reddit
> 
> And a Flash scene not included in the final cut(its most likely from the Snyder cut) that features Iris has been leaked.


Saw that iris seen, wish we had it, not sure where it would have gone in the movie though, lots of cyborg leaks too

----------


## Frontier

> Here's a description of what was in the Snyder-cut that was different from the theatrical cut from a someone who saw the original film pre-Whedon on Reddit
> 
> And a Flash scene not included in the final cut(its most likely from the Snyder cut) that features Iris has been leaked.


Some of this sounds like it gave better context/introduction to each characters, some seems like it was blatantly there to tease future solo movies, some of it seems to be following-up the plotlines in MoS and BvS (for better or worse). 

I'm kind a 50/50 on whether I would've wanted to keep all of it. Some sounds good, others...eh. 

I'm definitely glad they cut the Cyborg origin. It really doesn't sound like it portrayed Vic that well.

----------


## Jokerz79

Don't know about all of it but I do wish some of the deleted stuff was in the film. I am interested in seeing a Snyder Ultimate Cut.

----------


## Black_Adam

Don't know if this has been posted but a user has uploaded a bunch of deleted scenes online including Barry rescuing Iris and Cyborg having a vision of Nazi Germany? Most of it is in various stages of post and has no sound, still interesting to see.

Watch it while you can, will probably get taken down soon.

https://vimeo.com/user74470478

----------


## Soubhagya

> Here's a description of what was in the Snyder-cut that was different from the theatrical cut from a someone who saw the original film pre-Whedon on Reddit
> 
> And a Flash scene not included in the final cut(its most likely from the Snyder cut) that features Iris has been leaked.


Some sound good. Some sound bad. I am happy with the theatrical.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I hate pulling rank but I'm an attorney and your interpretation doesn't work because Superman fails several elements. Malice aforethought fails completely because if it were as broad as you were describing, any purposeful killing would contain malice aforethought since the intent to kill or injure is implicit in the act, which makes no sense. And here the killing was not done through a criminal act. Hell neither is even human. Not to mention the fact no jurisdiction uses the common law elements directly. And you left out one important element, and that is that it is *without justification.* Under no legitimate circumstances could he be lawfully convicted of murder because he did so to save innocent human lives.


Actually, I'm a lawyer myself.

Anyway, several state jurisdictions have straight adopted the common law elements, including malice aforethought, into their own penal statutes. And, yes, malice aforethought encompasses any reckless indifference to the value of life (i.e. the depraved heart). But even leaving aside malice aforethought and common law murder, the MPC, which many states base their criminal codes on, includes the mens rea of "recklessly manifesting extreme indifference to human life" for their definition of murder. So, its entirely possible to commit murder even if you don't mean to kill the other person. I mean, how do you think felony murder exists?

Secondly, the criminal act here would be, oh maybe engaging in an all out brawl in the middle of Metropolis? Recklessly endangering civilian lives and disturbing the peace? Or even just as simple as snapping Zod's neck with the obvious intent to kill.

And again, I stated that Clark had justification, which he'd be able to raise as a defense. But, regardless, if he was written a little smarter (or the film was written a little better), that situation could've been avoided.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Actually, I'm a lawyer myself.
> 
> Anyway, several state jurisdictions have straight adopted the common law elements, including malice aforethought, into their own penal statutes. And, yes, malice aforethought encompasses any reckless indifference to the value of life (i.e. the depraved heart). But even leaving aside malice aforethought and common law murder, the MPC, which many states base their criminal codes on, includes the mens rea of "recklessly manifesting extreme indifference to human life" for their definition of murder. So, its entirely possible to commit murder even if you don't mean to kill the other person. I mean, how do you think felony murder exists?
> 
> Secondly, the criminal act here would be, oh maybe engaging in an all out brawl in the middle of Metropolis? Recklessly endangering civilian lives and disturbing the peace?


I don't think any of those laws were written with Kryptonians in mind.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Well Zod isn't a superhero so...


Well, I was talking about Clark.

Plus, it really doesn't make any difference what Clark was using his powers for, as he seemed to have plenty a handle on them. The point is that he didn't think to use them in a way that would minimize civilian casualty.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I don't think any of those laws were written with Kryptonians in mind.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Again, I never said Clark didn't have reason, even justifiable reason in killing Zod. But...he killed Zod.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Plus, it really doesn't make any difference what Clark was using his powers for, as he seemed to have plenty a handle on them.


In a basic, not-trip-over-his-feet way, yes (though he was also crashing into mountains in one of the rare lighter moments in MAN OF STEEL), but to conduct combat against experienced Kryptonian warriors and their war machines?  Maybe not so much.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## byrd156

> I can't believe that some posters here haven't come to their sense about Snyder yet. Is there blame to share from the WB execs? You bet your ass. But this has always been about Snyder. Did the WB brass meddle with It? How about with Dunkirk? What about with Wonder Woman? No they didn't screw around with those movies because they weren't alarmed with what they were being shown in the months leading up to release! In January it was reported that Snyder showed a cut of the film to WB and it was "unwatchable." It wasn't too long after that the reshoot drama started first with Snyder, and then with Whedon. 
> 
> Snyder is a good man and a hell of a talent visually. But he has a proven track record of making divisive films. Either divisive content (MOS destruction and killing), or divisive critically (BvS). Being a divisive director is not really the issue, as plenty of legendary directors are exactly that (Oliver Stone, David Lynch, etc.). However, a divisive director has no business being put in charge of movies like these ones that need to be loved, not divide the audience and critic pool. So to me, that is where WB screwed up. They put Snyder on these properties, and when they meddled, they meddled at the wrong time. They should have "meddled" after BvS and removed Snyder. Instead, they keep choosing to "meddle" when its really too late and nobody wins and everyone looks like a loser.


It's like WB trying to throw water out with a bucket while the ship is already halfway underwater. DC should be killing it but they make nothing but division among the fans.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I honestly dont know why people are not seeing this movie. Almost everyone who has seen it either loved it or thought it was a really good movie. Do people really take what critics say seriously ? I mean people dont have an opinion of their own anymore? 
> 
> *If you are a fan of Marvel comics movies or comic book movies in general, who wouldnt want to watch the biggest DC movie  in Justice League. This is the one you dont miss, its not Doctor Strange or Ant-Man where you say oh Ill just skip this one*. I mean I thought DC finally got some momentum from Wonder Woman. Im really worried what WB will do now because they seem to have no clue and are very itchy fingers when it comes to decision making.


I have ZERO interest.

This will be a film I choose to miss be it in theaters or dvd just like every other comic movie I choose to pass over.

It's not that folks take what critics say-it folks have the right to not watch a film. 

It's just a movie that too many are looking for people to attack for it under achieving. Instead of realizing folks might not be interested and running to the panic room is not the solution. Because if the success of Deadpool & GOTG didn't get you panicking then this shouldn't either.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Here's a description of what was in the Snyder-cut that was different from the theatrical cut from a someone who saw the original film pre-Whedon on Reddit
> 
> And a Flash scene not included in the final cut(its most likely from the Snyder cut) that features Iris has been leaked.


The Flash scene you mentioned thoroughly debunked the reddit post. It's amazing someone would go to that much trouble to push a lie of such magnitude after the movie has already opened. The comments thread debunks more of what the reddit poster said but that leaked Flash/Iris scene proves that poster to be full of crap.

It's funny how many commenters went nuts for his/her made up fanfic. So many people saying, "This is the movie we should have gotten! It would have been so much better!" The fact that it was made up pretty much proves they'd have said that no matter what the made-up version was.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Saw that iris seen, wish we had it, not sure where it would have gone in the movie though, lots of cyborg leaks too


Definitely before the sewers action scene. Heck, that Iris scene renders the whole "Save one person" plot point (Whedon's addition as rumored) irrelevant. Deleting _that_ scene seems to be why Flash needed to be motivated and given a pep talk to find his inner hero.

I don't know how I feel about this TBH. I enjoyed Bruce motivating Barry (not a spoiler as this scene has been shown in trailers and previews) but I think Barry finding the importance and rewards of heroism through saving Iris's life felt more "Classic DC"? I dunno, maybe I really wanted to see Kiersey Clemmons' Iris so I could be biased.




> Don't know about all of it but I do wish some of the deleted stuff was in the film. I am interested in seeing a Snyder Ultimate Cut.


That's the thing as I illustrated with the Iris example above. There cannot be an ultimate cut of sorts as Whedon redid plot points that he deleted. So you end up with a Suicide Squad like scenario where edited out scenes and characters now no longer fit into the final product.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The Flash scene you mentioned thoroughly debunked the reddit post. It's amazing someone would go to that much trouble to push a lie of such magnitude after the movie has already opened. The comments thread debunks more of what the reddit poster said but that leaked Flash/Iris scene proves that poster to be full of crap.
> 
> It's funny how many commenters went nuts for his/her made up fanfic. So many people saying, "This is the movie we should have gotten! It would have been so much better!" The fact that it was made up pretty much proves they'd have said that no matter what the made-up version was.


Oh oops yeah so it looks like that person lied.

But I still think my theory of "Save one person" being a Whedon addition to compensate for the deleted Iris scene is correct.

----------


## Bossace

They made Barry look like a rookie but in SS in the boomerang origin Barry seemed very composed and capable

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> They made Barry look like a rookie but in SS in the boomerang origin Barry seemed very composed and capable


I have two theories on this:

1. Whedon not doing enough homework (if the rumors of the "I push people and run away" scene being his contribution are true)

2. Barry found an alien invasion a significant step up from a normal guy who is just really good at throwing boomerangs, hence his more nervous behavior in this film.

----------


## Black_Adam

> The Flash scene you mentioned thoroughly debunked the reddit post. It's amazing someone would go to that much trouble to push a lie of such magnitude after the movie has already opened. The comments thread debunks more of what the reddit poster said but that leaked Flash/Iris scene proves that poster to be full of crap.
> 
> It's funny how many commenters went nuts for his/her made up fanfic. So many people saying, "This is the movie we should have gotten! It would have been so much better!" The fact that it was made up pretty much proves they'd have said that no matter what the made-up version was.


It's actually quite sad at the moment, fans are willing to believe anything to think this magical super cut of the movie is out there somewhere which is much better. All these descriptions of cut scenes from "various leaks" (which all contradict each other btw) sound way too good to be true and like blatant pandering to desperate fans how can they not see it? Kilowog showing up in the post-credits, the Greek Gods having large speaking roles in the flashback battle, Deathstroke breaking Lex out of prison, Darkseid, Desaad and Heggra all being in the movie it just all sounds like utter crap.

Personally I'm happy with the version of the movie we got, when the home release comes round I hope they touch up the CGI and perhaps add another 10-15 minutes of some of the world building stuff which didn't make it (Flash saving Iris, Aquaman and Vulko/the Dead King, some of Cyborgs cut scenes) but they don't really need to change the entire film.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Actually, I'm a lawyer myself.
> 
> Anyway, several state jurisdictions have straight adopted the common law elements, including malice aforethought, into their own penal statutes. And, yes, malice aforethought encompasses any reckless indifference to the value of life (i.e. the depraved heart). But even leaving aside malice aforethought and common law murder, the MPC, which many states base their criminal codes on, includes the mens rea of "recklessly manifesting extreme indifference to human life" for their definition of murder. So, its entirely possible to commit murder even if you don't mean to kill the other person. I mean, how do you think felony murder exists?
> 
> Secondly, the criminal act here would be, oh maybe engaging in an all out brawl in the middle of Metropolis? Recklessly endangering civilian lives and disturbing the peace? Or even just as simple as snapping Zod's neck with the obvious intent to kill.
> 
> And again, I stated that Clark had justification, which he'd be able to raise as a defense. But, regardless, if he was written a little smarter (or the film was written a little better), that situation could've been avoided.


Superman wasn't acting with a depraved heart/reckless indifference by trying to defeat Zod in the location he was forced to fight. 

Superman lacks the mens rea for a felony to begin with so felony murder wouldn't apply. His mental state in the film qualifies in no jurisdiction for murder. A prosecutor can charge anything but the elements are not there.  

Whether the situation was one you didn't like and whether it can be called murder are two different things and you're blatantly reaching to drive the point home that you hate Man of Steel. We get it. Thanks.

----------


## Carabas

> I honestly dont know why people are not seeing this movie. Almost everyone who has seen it either loved it or thought it was a really good movie. Do people really take what critics say seriously ? I mean people dont have an opinion of their own anymore? 
> 
> If you are a fan of Marvel comics movies or comic book movies in general, who wouldnt want to watch the biggest DC movie  in Justice League. This is the one you dont miss, its not Doctor Strange or Ant-Man where you say oh Ill just skip this one. I mean I thought DC finally got some momentum from Wonder Woman. Im really worried what WB will do now because they seem to have no clue and are very itchy fingers when it comes to decision making.


Sometimes being a fan means voting with your wallet.

And wallet-voting is very binary. It's either "yes, I love this, give me more of this, don't change a thing" or "this comic or movie or game sucks, try to do better next time".

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Looks like WB CEO Kevin Tsujihara could start getting the fans wrath. 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...gue-reception/
> 
> Hell, if hes responsible for mandating that these films get chopped to shit than he deserves the scorn.


There's some comfort in fans being able to reach out to a face and demand answers.

----------


## yohyoi

http://deadline.com/2017/11/justice-...ar-1202211094/

Never would I have ever thought this would happen, but it did. DC's most iconic heroes just lost to some Marvel heroes that were unknown decades ago. People like to preach DC has the most iconic heroes in the world, but I think it's changing. We have a new generation who attribute DC heroes to "bad" and "mediocre" movies. Marvel is having its global Renaissance where kids would rather be Thor than Superman, and be Iron Man rather than Batman. WB needs to step up.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Sometimes being a fan means voting with your wallet.
> 
> And wallet-voting is very binary. It's either "yes, I love this, give me more of this, don't change a thing" or "this comic or movie or game sucks, try to do better next time".


There's also, "We give up.  This isn't worth it.  Maybe somebody else will make movies with these characters in thirty or forty years.  We're done."

I'm 45 years old.  If that happens, I'm not going to see any new DC movies in my lifetime.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## BatmanJones

> Sometimes being a fan means voting with your wallet.
> 
> And wallet-voting is very binary. It's either "yes, I love this, give me more of this, don't change a thing" or "this comic or movie or game sucks, try to do better next time".


WB won't know. And you won't know if you missed out on a great film. Maybe you're not much of a DC person but this is the Justice League movie. I'm 48 years old and I never thought I'd see this moment in my lifetime. I can't even imagine being any kind of fan of DC at all and skipping this movie. I can't even imagine waiting for it to stream! Especially when reactions have been so divided but fans (here at least, according to the poll) have overwhelmingly liked it.

But sure, vote with your wallet. $10-12 doesn't go very far but buy some extra comics maybe. And never know if you might have been one of the ones that loved this movie.

Personally I hated MoS and BvS but this was my favorite comic book movie of all time. The one I've been waiting all my life for. But save $12 or however much a movie ticket is where you live. And avoid streaming it to make the righteous point that you oppose what they did with a movie that you never saw.

Maybe you're just not a DC fan in which case I sort of wonder what you're doing here but protesting things one hasn't seen has never seemed to me an admirable or righteous trait. It reminds me of the protesters at The Last Temptation of Christ, with their signs saying people would go to hell for watching a movie they all refused to see themselves. They had no idea what they were protesting. I don't mean to be rude, but do you?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I dont see them going ahead with Deathstroke or other lesser known characters unless they can pull them off with a shoestring budget. Something along the line of Deadpools budget, which was only $58 million. Thats incredibly cheap in this day and age.


I thought that's what we wanted a Deathstroke movie to be? I mean, Gareth Evans is potentially writing, and directing, the thing.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

*sigh*

Honestly, WB/DC needs to stop trying to make these all $100+ million blockbusters.

----------


## Buried Alien

> *sigh*
> 
> Honestly, WB/DC needs to stop trying to make these all $100+ million blockbusters.


As the U.S. Air Force used to advertise:  "AIM HIGH."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I will say it is a little disappointing the MCU has Black Panther, Avengers Infinity War, and Ant-Man and the Wasp and Fox Marvel has Deadpool 2, New Mutants, and X-Men Dark Phoenix all before we get another DCEU film.


Don't forget Tom Hardy's Venom movie!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Big Blue Boy Scout has arrived, revamped for a new generation.  Just took a REALLY roundabout way of getting here this time.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


No one ois interesting is seeing Supes develop as a person. Including WB, as their insistence on BvS and JL chopped that development all up.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Zacks vision is the reason way less people are showing up to this movie compared to the last one.


Not really. If not for WB, we would've gotten a MoS2, rather than BvS.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Say what you will, the extended cut of BvS might had better reviews but even that can't get crowds. Do you honestly believe people will come back to see the film again and again? Repeat audiences propel a film to 1 billion mark. Even without the butchering of the film it would have struggled to earn money.
> 
> Its too serious for its own good. Good for a medium budgeted film. Not so much for 250 billion budget. Someone like Nolan can strike the balance between art and crowd pleasing. Its a big risk. People desire to feel good in a film. That's why Marvel works. Their films are moderately good which have a reputation of pleasing crowds. People want a good time at the movies, not feel depressed or sad or disengaged. They have a formula for humor and action. They make some great films once in a while. And their budgets are not insane. 
> 
> The vision was flawed to get the money. It was a vision though. I agree with that. The film which was left untouched was Man Of Steel. It has its problems. But it earned 666 million. That's cool for an origin film. But who knows what would have been the future if they made a Man Of Steel 2 instead of introducing Batman and making it a backdoor pilot for the JL. Who tries to take inspiration from Dark Knight Returns when the universe has not even begun? They sound good on paper.


Logan made you feel like shit, and people loved it.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Not really. If not for WB, we would've gotten a MoS2, rather than BvS.


Not sure what you mean since Zack was the one who suggested bringing in Batman after MoS and he was the one who wanted to go full on Dark Knight Returns.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> *sigh*
> 
> Honestly, WB/DC needs to stop trying to make these all $100+ million blockbusters.


That's the key. Yes the franchise needs the big tent poles but not everything needs to be 250 million plus in budget.

I keep saying it. If you can do a high quality WW movie for 150 mill,you can also do high quality Superman (and Flash, and Green Lantern and..) movies for 150-175 million and Street level Crime noir Batman movies for even less. Save your 250-300 million budgets for things like JL. 

Right now, Warner's needs to not panic and scrap this universe because JL isn't going to make as much as they hoped. Just ease back the budget, focus a little more on the smaller characters ,utilize your big gun characters and those that come out of JL as fan favorites ( Ezra's Flash, Wonder Woman, the revitalized Superman as rumored) to pop in for cameos where needed.  the JL as an entity in the universe in the background while you build up your universe. Slow down a bit. No need to scrap everything till now and throw all of your eggs into a rumored Wonder Woman " universe "  because that's what everyone supposedly likes. You do that and I guarantee WW2 ends up a studio mandated and chopped up mess that will please no one.

The key is also not trying to directly compete with Marvel in terms of turning out multibillion dollar crowd pleasing blockbusters that mow over everything in sight. Marvel has won that race and will continue to for awhile. I'm Convinced at this pointthat Marvel could put out a movie where the heroes all just stand around farting and Because of the brand loyalty built up over the admittingly near flawless execution of Phase One from Iron Man to Avengers
It would make 500 million minimum And get a 70 percent  Fresh rating on RT.

WB and DC films need to find their voice, play to their strengths and carve their own niche, and they aren't going to do it by trying to copy Marvel  in reverse. Keep what's worked and what their fans liked from this first phase of the DCEU, tweak the rest that didn't, budget smarter and trust your directors and go forward and don't dwell on the past.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Fighting over one thing or another is not the same as having Batman an inch from killing Superman three quarters through the film.
> 
> Also, if they meddled with Sucker Punch then I guess there is a history of studios having to clean up Snyder's mess. Sucks that his wife kept protecting his career.


Clean up his mess....Even tho is mess ends up being better than their clean up?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Not sure what you mean since Zack was the one who suggested bringing in Batman after MoS and he was the one who wanted to go full on Dark Knight Returns.


No, he talked about doing a Superman trilogy. It evoked into TDKR when WB said they wanted to speed into JL. Yes, Zach chose the TDKR version of Batman, and he of course got excited to do it, but he was originally to do a Supes trilogy.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The original goal posts for Batman and Superman's first team-up was joy and enthusiasm. It failed to get there. That's why Geoff Johns was brought in.


Lol...when has that ever been the case? Literally?

Brave and the Bold, Superfriends, and JL Action, don't count.

----------


## Myskin

Seen it. 
This is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest films I've ever seen, and not in a good way. I really can't imagine how experienced producers and directors could create a film with so many problems - it's as if the movie itself is unfinished and they released it with unfinished editing, CGI, color correction. I really don't think that it is fair to put the blame on a single individual because this is clearly the result of a collective effort crammed with incompetence.
Basically, it's Avengers 2.0, mixed with Ratner's X-Men (the pacing and the editing), the Injustice videogame (for the CGI) and some plot elements from The Lord of the Rings. The tone is all over the place - full of forced jokes (for God's sake Barry SHUT UP) and one-liners and scenes which I really can't believe they put in the movie (the "truth and justice" line of Superman's is laughably bad, as well as a moment with Barry and Vic straight out of Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein).

Affleck is terrible. Downright terrible. I've always thought that he is a mediocre actor, but here he literally OOZES with listlessness. He's clearly looking forward to abandoning the ship.
Cavill is a lame actor too IMHO - however, he does as best he can but he hasn't much to work with and, quite frankly, this version of Superman is terribly flat. His role in the story doesn't have anything to do with moral compasses, heroism or faith in humanity - he's in the story just because he is very strong and powerful and that's it. He punches things and monsters and nothing more.
I feel kinda bad for Jason Momoa, who can be a decent character actor in the right movie (but he's making an Aquaman solo, so maybe it was worth the effort,) and young people like Miller and Fisher - even if Miller is a promising guy who maybe will have an interesting career even without the JL. Gal Gadot is decent and Amy Adams - literally the only one of the bunch who can be considered a real actress (Irons and Simmons aside) - doesn't appear that much and I think that nobody will ever remember that she was in this movie.

The CGI is awful - again, I really can't imagine how a 300 million blockbuster could appear as a B-movie the way JL does. Especially in the Gotham city scenes and during the final battle.

Mostly, there is a widespread feeling of pointlessness. I really can't criticize the people in the marketing department - who are probably the only ones who used their best efforts to make this whole thing a success. The mountain has brought forth to a mouse. I mean, it's as if this movie could have never happened at all and nothing would have changed. 

Yes, MOS and BvS were better. This doesn't make them great films - MOS is full of problems, but it is watchable and BvS is VERY mediocre (even the extended version is mediocre). But at least it was relatively clear what the director was aiming at - that is, basically a war movie with superheroes. There was a vision. JL doesn't have a vision at all and I seriously doubt that if Snyder hadn't left JL things would have been different. The whole JL project was completely wrong from the very beginning (or at least after BvS' lukewarm reception) because it wasn't built as a movie with a vision, but as a bunch of disconnected scenes to appease the fans. Basically, in my mind Snyder and Tsujihara and Terrio and Whedon read a lot of fan boards (including CBR, maybe) and they took notes of what the fans wanted. 
"These DC movies are too dark!" - Ok, let's put a lot of jokes and puns and funny scenes in the movie.
"Superman never smiles!" - Ok, let's put a lot of scenes where Superman constantly smiles and while we are at it, let's give him a brighter costume.
"Superman isn't heroic enough!" - Ok, let's give him a lot of scenes where he punches and punches AND PUNCHES the villains and saves the civilians and the kids love him and he says funny things about truth and justice.
"Why don't DC movies have post-credit scenes like Marvel?" - Ok, let's put TWO mid-credits scenes and while we are at it let's bring the director of the Avengers on board.
And so on. And on. Without putting any effort on what THIS movie should be rather than a cheap Avengers knockoff. Ask yourself: why should people watch a movie which desperately wants to be Marvel, if they can watch the original Marvel movies? And I am saying this without being a fan of the Avengers.

Directors and producers should NEVER use the fans' opinion as a point of reference when they are creating a movie. In most cases, fans don't know what they really want. Of course, directors and producers shouldn't do a movie to deliberately contradict fans (even if thought-provoking movies can be interesting even within the superhero lore, I guess), but the problem is - they should do their own damn thing and create something with a coherent vision, a project which may CONVINCE people of what they are aiming at. Putting a lot of light moments and fan-favorite situations in the Snyderverse to correct its course is like putting cotton candy on an overcooked steak to make it taste better.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Seen it. 
> This is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest film I've ever seen, and not in a good way. I really can't imagine how experienced producers and directors could create a film with so many problems - it's as if the movie itself is unfinished and they released it with unfinished editing, CGI, color correction. I really don't think that it is fair to put the blame on a single individual because this is clearly the result of a collective effort crammed with incompetence.
> Basically, it's Avengers 2.0, mixed with Ratner's X-Men (the pacing and the editing), the Injustice videogame (for the CGI) and some plot elements from The Lord of the Rings. The tone is all over the place - full of forced jokes (for God's sake Barry SHUT UP) and one-liners and scenes which I really can't believe they put in the movie (the "truth and justice" line of Superman's is laughably bad, as well as a moment with Barry and Vic straight out of Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein).
> 
> Affleck is terrible. Downright terrible. I've always thought that he is a mediocre actor, but here he literally OOZES with listlessness. He's clearly looking forward to abandoning the ship.
> Cavill is a lame actor too IMHO - however, he does as best he can but he hasn't much to work with and, quite frankly, this version of Superman is terribly flat. His role in the story doesn't have anything to do with moral compasses, heroism or faith in humanity - he's in the story just because he is very strong and powerful and that's it. He punches things and monster and nothing more.
> I feel kinda bad for Jason Momoa, who can be a decent character actor in the right movie (but he's making an Aquaman solo, so maybe it was worth the effort,) and young people like Miller and Fisher - even if Miller is a promising guy who maybe will have an interesting career even without the JL. Gal Gadot is decent and Amy Adams - literally the only one of the bunch who can be considered a real actress (Irons and Simmons aside) - doesn't appear that much and I think that nobody will ever remember that she was in this movie.
> 
> The CGI is awful - again, I really can't imagine how a 300 million blockbuster could appear as a B-movie the way JL does. Especially in the Gotham city scenes and during the final battle.
> ...


While I don't agree it was completely terrible,you make great points.

Honestly the problem is Warners freaked when the first new Superman incarnation in 20 years didn't​ make a billion out of the gate and the " man of murder/ not muh Superman" outcry online and instead of either A) ignore the malcontents and allow Snyder to finish his Superman movie trilogy or B) recalibrate and go in another direction, they chose c) keep Snyder but push him to build a cinematic universe while attempting to full fill his vision of Superman. I believe we would have been better off if they chose A) and maybe even B) rather than C).

----------


## Myskin

> While I don't agree it was completely terrible,you make great points.
> 
> Honestly the problem is Warners freaked when the first new Superman incarnation in 20 years didn't​ make a billion out of the gate and the " man of murder/ not muh Superman" outcry online and instead of either A) ignore the malcontents and allow Snyder to finish his Superman movie trilogy or B) recalibrate and go in another direction, they chose c) keep Snyder but push him to build a cinematic universe while attempting to full fill his vision of Superman. I believe we would have been better off if they chose A) and maybe even B) rather than C).


To be fair, it's not that MOS isn't full of awkward, fan-service, unsubtle and fake moments. But it's a different type of fanservice. Making Henry Cavill run and swim half-naked for half of the movie, or the line about him being 100% American, or the moment with the waitress, or the female soldier saying that he's hot, are just awfully direct messages to the viewer. "See? SEE? This is not your daddy's Superman! Look at what a friggin' beefcake we have here - LOOK AT THOSE BICEPS! And he can get laid too because he's HOT! But don't worry, even if David Goyer wrote a story about him renouncing American citizenship he repented and now Supes is as American as apple pie!"
That's one of the reasons I don't think that a Snyder-solo JL would be that different from the one we got. He isn't exactly a subtle director.

(By the way, I never understood why people call him a sexist just because he made Sucker Punch: the vast majority of his movies seem to be softcore porn for a homosexual male audience - heck, in JL we have two naked heroes in one movie, Superman and Aquaman).

----------


## Soubhagya

> Logan made you feel like shit, and people loved it.


I was talking about budget and expectations . Logan was budgeted at 97 million dollars. It earned 617 million. BvS bugeted at 250 million. They were not tageting 600 million or so. 

Avengers keep earning 1 billion without a sweat. I believe its because they target all audiences. BvS is definitely not targeted to all audiences. If they think its a film everyone can enjoy they are mistaken. Either you make a film which all can enjoy or make one with a lesser budget. Its too risky. 

I can sit in my home and point this. I maybe right, i maybe wrong. But its the job of WB to know it. Sitting at home and saying this is easy. I admit that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> "Maybe the problem with 'Justice League' is that it's not enough like 'Batman v Superman'"
> http://mashable.com/2017/11/18/justi...v-superman.amp
> 
> And suddenly the penny drops...


Lol, so the Superman with no issues, the one everyone wanted so bad...it turns how he's not as interesting, now.

Jeezus...

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I liked Justice League...But this article isn't wrong.


It's not. JL is the more fun movie, but the least interesting of the 5 movies.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It's not. JL is the more fun movie, but the least interesting of the 5 movies.


When Supes is resurrected that is by far the most interesting thing in the entire movie. Apparently it went on longer and surprise surprise WB cut that down... 

I still loved the film for what it was, but no doubt a more interesting film was left on the editing floor. 

Btw TooFly you were right about the score, it sounded more memorable listening to it on its own than in the film!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I really don't get the idea that if Snyder had full control this movie would have been more successful. WB is in this situation because of how divisive Snyder's take on the characters, mainly Superman, have been in the public. It has been years now and we are still talking about the problems with MoS. Then WB decided to basically double down on his take with BvS and that was even more divisive. 
> 
> I think the Wonder Woman movie proved that WB should have taken their time and build up the characters individually. Slowly build up the hype while making sure they get the tone of the characters right so that most of the audience will buy in. Now I guess that is kind of their only option as I don't think they will rush out more big movies, other than SS. It is kind of weird to think of SS being their big focus going forward, but it was a big success for them from a pure numbers standpoint.


That doesn't make any sense. You talk about building the characters individually, and taking their time, but also mentioned how people didn't care about MoS because that's not the Superman they wanted. According to you, even if Zack got to develop Supes in the trilogy he signed up for, because it's Zack's vision it would've still been a "problem".

Tho, I guess people would've liked it more as it finished the arc of Supes, as you can tell people still think he "murdered" Zod.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> When Supes is resurrected that is by far the most interesting thing in the entire movie. Apparently it went on longer and surprise surprise WB cut that down... 
> 
> I still loved the film for what it was, but no doubt a more interesting film was left on the editing floor. 
> 
> Btw TooFly you were right about the score, it sounded more memorable listening to it on its own than in the film!


That was the best part of the movie IMO.

Yup, the score was mediocre, as I, and others, predicted. Honestly, there's many time you forget there's any music in this movie. That's how innocuous it was.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> That's the thing as I illustrated with the Iris example above. There cannot be an ultimate cut of sorts as Whedon redid plot points that he deleted. So you end up with a Suicide Squad like scenario where edited out scenes and characters now no longer fit into the final product.


Yup that's my biggest fear is we'll get a patchwork extended cut like SS, that or maybe the fact that the cut stuff had unfinished VFX and can't be put in even if they wanted too. 

There would have to be a proper directors cut on the home release, will WB do that? Effectively admitting they were wrong? If the want BD sales would be a no brainer.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That doesn't make any sense. You talk about building the characters individually, and taking their time, but also mentioned how people didn't care about MoS because that's not the Superman they wanted. According to you, even if Zack got to develop Supes in the trilogy he signed up for, because it's Zack's vision it would've still been a "problem".


Not to mention the idea that WB will stop focusing on JL2. They are not going to drop plans for JL2, just not release it in the next couple of years. Also, without spoiling too much of JL post-credits, let's just say that the film sets up the heroes to all have their solos next and have relationships with at least one major respective villain established first. So it looks like Plan A was to have JL2 a little while away with greater build up than there was for JL1.

----------


## brandnewfan

I think it’s safe to say that the DCEU is a failure.

Other than WW, the films have suffered from bad writing, bad direction, and extremely poor casting decisions.  Jesse Eisenberg is a great actor but a terrible Lex.  Ezra Miller is quite accomplished and talented but he is NOT Barry Allen.  Jason Mamoa is not a convincing Aquaman.

Suicide Squad should have been a fun and violent Deadpool-type movie but it ended up being one of the worst films of this genre.  BvS (theatrical and extended) was too long and very boring.  It had so many missteps and mistakes that make he film just ridiculous.  Man of Steel was only okay.  WW is the *only* good DCEU film thus far but I’m worried their being pinned into corners somewhat with certain decisions made during the first film (killing off Steve Trevor, for instance).

This series of films have proven to be unsuccessful by the lackluster box office performance of JL (should have been an Avengers-level success...and likely would have if not for the poorly reviewed and poor performances of the prior films).

Ben Affleck, arguably the most important player in the DCEU due to the character he portrays, may not return to the role.

And it’s also too late too start over from scratch.  We’re too many movies in to go back now.  To start over would be a difficult and bumpy transition which just create more problems.  The only hope is to keep going forward with an entirely new creative team, but that won’t solve the casting problems.  Either that, or just give up.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think it’s safe to say that the DCEU is a failure.


No.




> Other than WW, the films have suffered from bad writing, bad direction, and extremely poor casting decisions.  Jesse Eisenberg is a great actor but a terrible Lex.  Ezra Miller is quite accomplished and talented but he is NOT Barry Allen.  Jason Mamoa is not a convincing Aquaman.


Subjective. Subjective. Subjective. Also too early to take a call on Miller and Momoa but many people are enjoying them fine.




> Suicide Squad should have been a fun and violent Deadpool-type movie but it ended up being one of the worst films of this genre.


It still ended up making a lot of $$ though, and this is the one where many folks seem to strongly disagree with critics. Even the Oscars included someone saying Suicide Squad was her favorite film in a clip reel on their show.




> BvS (theatrical and extended) was too long and very boring.  It had so many missteps and mistakes that make he film just ridiculous.


Also made $$, though yeah, it was disappointing and affected JL's opening too.




> WW is the *only* good DCEU film thus far but I’m worried their being pinned into corners somewhat with certain decisions made during the first film (killing off Steve Trevor, for instance).


Nothing a little Circe magic can't fix in the sequel (and Steve's death made the film all that more poignant and impactful for many).




> This series of films have proven to be unsuccessful by the lackluster box office performance of JL


All of those films made more than sufficient amount of $$ by themselves, so JL's performance doesn't retroactively make them commercially unsuccessful. 




> Ben Affleck, arguably the most important player in the DCEU due to the character he portrays, may not return to the role.


Many people do not want the character he portrays to be the most important player in the DCEU and don't want him in the role, so are rejoicing over this possibility.




> And it’s also too late too start over from scratch.  We’re too many movies in to go back now.  To start over would be a difficult and bumpy transition which just create more problems.  The only hope is to keep going forward with an entirely new creative team, but that won’t solve the casting problems.  Either that, or just give up.


Everything about Aquaman looks promising, especially given James Wan's record. Shazam is shaping up pretty well. Suicide Squad 2 will be a success if it is competent, features the Rock and gets a China release that the first one didn't receive. Wonder Woman 2 will still be largely anticipated as the character has hit the pop-culture zeitgeist like never before. Matt Reeves is an incredibly acclaimed director whose take on Batman looks intriguing, even if they recast the role. Harley Quinn who was a big success in Suicide Squad will probably appear in multiple films. And given the post-credits scene, looks like Flash may get a solo film featuring one of his rogues, even if it may not be Flashpoint as originally planned.

So... they still have a lot of their original options open.

----------


## Agent Z

Steve's death won't be an issue. WW has gone a long time without him before

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Superman wasn't acting with a depraved heart/reckless indifference by trying to defeat Zod in the location he was forced to fight. 
> 
> Superman lacks the mens rea for a felony to begin with so felony murder wouldn't apply. His mental state in the film qualifies in no jurisdiction for murder. A prosecutor can charge anything but the elements are not there.


Well, smashing about into buildings and satellites and the like seems reckless to me. However, I wasn't saying that either depraved heart or felony murder applied here. I was simply pointing out that a killing does not need to be premeditated to be murder, because some seemingly believed that it did. Those two doctrines are just prominent examples of such.

Even if Clark decided right in that second "I'm gonna kill Zod" or even just "I'm gonna hurt Zod" without any more thought, it could still be murder. But either way, its still a killing.




> Whether the situation was one you didn't like and whether it can be called murder are two different things and you're blatantly reaching to drive the point home that you hate Man of Steel. We get it. Thanks.


That's not even a part of MoS that I dislike. I don't care that Clark killed Zod, but qualifying it as "Clark's never murdered anybody" makes it sound like he's never hurt a flea. He still killed somebody, justified or not.

But yes, I do believe Superman should have a better way of dealing with his villains. That moment was obviously dropped in for shock value and to make Superman "dark" and "adult" by assuming his nonlethal methods from the comics and previous incarnations were "lame."

----------


## Soubhagya

> I think it’s safe to say that the DCEU is a failure.
> 
> Other than WW, the films have suffered from bad writing, bad direction, and extremely poor casting decisions.  Jesse Eisenberg is a great actor but a terrible Lex.  Ezra Miller is quite accomplished and talented but he is NOT Barry Allen.  Jason Mamoa is not a convincing Aquaman.
> 
> Suicide Squad should have been a fun and violent Deadpool-type movie but it ended up being one of the worst films of this genre.  BvS (theatrical and extended) was too long and very boring.  It had so many missteps and mistakes that make he film just ridiculous.  Man of Steel was only okay.  WW is the *only* good DCEU film thus far but I’m worried their being pinned into corners somewhat with certain decisions made during the first film (killing off Steve Trevor, for instance).
> 
> This series of films have proven to be unsuccessful by the lackluster box office performance of JL (should have been an Avengers-level success...and likely would have if not for the poorly reviewed and poor performances of the prior films).
> 
> Ben Affleck, arguably the most important player in the DCEU due to the character he portrays, may not return to the role.
> ...


Wonder Woman succeeded spectacularly. That's proof of success. If they make a few good films one after the another the picture will be different. I am not calling it a failure before Aquaman. A mixed bag? Yes. A failure? No. 

Avengers had a lot of things going for it. For us fans we see Justice League on the level of Avengers. For the ordinary viewers they are not. Avengers was a culmination of series of successful films. Iron Man, Captain America, Thor. Iron Man 2 and Incredible Hulk were minor hiccups. But otherwise it was hype created over years. I have said it before and say it now. They had a momentum. The previous films were successful and well received. There was a lot of positive buzz and interest. 200 million plus opening makes sense. Avengers was a phenomenal film. I think its the only comic book film till now which has received A+ on Cinemascore. Which means there was a wonderful word of mouth. I have heard from some of my friends who never picked up a comic book in my life wanting to take me to the Avengers. My cousin who has not watched a single super hero cartoon what to speak of picking up a comic book, went to watch it twice. Avengers was not just a film. It was an event. Everything clicked perfectly.

JL did not have that. There was no positive vibes. The audiences were burned by BvS and SS. To think that they could pull on 200 million plus was wrong. Its expecting that the common public cares for Justice League. But truthfully, they don't. Its we fans who care for that. For us they are a big deal. Not necessarily so for the casual audience. Yet a figure around 100 million is under performance. A hold over from BvS and SS. Simply WW couldn't pull them in. Its my opinion.

I think they will focus on solo films for a while. The only team up i can see in the near future is Suicide Squad 2. But to write them off might be too early. They may try something like WW. Keep to solos with only cursory nods to a wider world.

----------


## Robotman

I seriously can’t believe we’re at this point. The Justice League has failed to generate excitement and a huge box-office. THE JUSTICE LEAGUE! For decades this team was the end all of the genre. It’s a movie that people all over the world have waited for since we were children. But now it will probably struggle to break even. WB simply screwed up. When they weren’t sitting on and wasting the lucrative DC properties they churned out duds like Green Lantern and Superman Returns. If Green Lantern wouldn’t have been horrible they could have jump started their comic book universe right there and gotten around to Justice League when the concept of a superhero team up was still fresh. The idea of a superhero team up film just doesn’t excite the general public like it would have 10 years ago. There has been 3 Avenegers films (counting Civil War because that was totally an Avengers movie) and countless X Men films. I guess WB gets what they deserve. Sadly the fans are the ones who pay for it. 




> I think it’s safe to say that the DCEU is a failure.
> 
> Other than WW, the films have suffered from bad writing, bad direction, and extremely poor casting decisions.  Jesse Eisenberg is a great actor but a terrible Lex.  Ezra Miller is quite accomplished and talented but he is NOT Barry Allen.  Jason Mamoa is not a convincing Aquaman.
> 
> Suicide Squad should have been a fun and violent Deadpool-type movie but it ended up being one of the worst films of this genre.  BvS (theatrical and extended) was too long and very boring.  It had so many missteps and mistakes that make he film just ridiculous.  Man of Steel was only okay.  WW is the *only* good DCEU film thus far but I’m worried their being pinned into corners somewhat with certain decisions made during the first film (killing off Steve Trevor, for instance).
> 
> This series of films have proven to be unsuccessful by the lackluster box office performance of JL (should have been an Avengers-level success...and likely would have if not for the poorly reviewed and poor performances of the prior films).
> 
> Ben Affleck, arguably the most important player in the DCEU due to the character he portrays, may not return to the role.
> ...


For the most part I agree but I wouldn’t say “failure” as much as it hasn’t nearly lived up to its potential. But I think the cumulative factors you mentioned led to Justice League underperforming. Yeah Sucide Squad made money but it was a horrible movie and doesn’t help sell the DCEU brand. 

WB just hasn’t had a clear vision from the beginning. MoS 2 was originally supposed to feature Batman but was rewritten to be the long gestating BvS (they had been talking about doing that movie since the early 2000s). That was rewritten to include Wonder Woman and Justice League member cameos as Marvel has already lapped them at this time and WB felt they needed to catch up and cash in on the superhero explosion. Snyder turned in a dour 3 Hour film and WB overreacted and chopped the crap out of it. And even with all the cuts there were many reports of kids being very bored while watching BvS. At no point should a movie featuring Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman be boring. Snyder’s style has divided fans and I really don’t think he should have been tapped to direct Justice League. They should have tried to course correct right then and there. 

Then there was Suicide Squad. WB had no idea what they wanted that movie to be. Should it be Deadpool or Guardians of the Galaxy? They chop the crap out of that film and the make a bad movie even worse. 

So I really can’t blame the average moviegoers for not feeling much excitement for the DCEU. You can only feed people a subpar product for so long before they’ve had enough.

----------


## Nite-Wing

And now after the Justice League flop 
WB's biggest priority should probably be Suicide Squad 2, The Batman, and WW 2 
Everything else has kinda been tainted by Justice League doing so badly 

Still blame Whedon but its good to know the chances of him getting to do a batgirl movie are in the toilet with him being so unprofessional on twitter

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Why keep Snyder on, if his vision wasn't what WB wanted? Why start messing about mere months before release cutting stuff up, Whedon was signed on to shoot additional photography but looks like WB got him to reshoot stuff too. 

And now look they're much worse for it now, honestly serves them 100% right bunch of headless chickens no idea what they're doing.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> And now after the Justice League flop 
> *WB's biggest priority should probably be Suicide Squad 2, The Batman, and WW 2* 
> Everything else has kinda been tainted by Justice League doing so badly 
> 
> Still blame Whedon but its good to know the chances of him getting to do a batgirl movie are in the toilet with him being so unprofessional on twitter


I would swap out Suicide Squad 2 with a proper Superman solo sequel. He's one of the few things in this film getting some consistent praise, they should take advantage of that and give Cavill the universally beloved movie the poor bastard deserves. They probably won't though. 

Otherwise, do the sure thing of giving Jenkins and Reeves full control of their films, and see how Wan does with Aquaman before announcing any more movies.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> I think it’s safe to say that the DCEU is a failure.
> 
> Other than WW, the films have suffered from bad writing, bad direction, and extremely poor casting decisions.  Jesse Eisenberg is a great actor but a terrible Lex.  Ezra Miller is quite accomplished and talented but he is NOT Barry Allen.  Jason Mamoa is not a convincing Aquaman.
> 
> Suicide Squad should have been a fun and violent Deadpool-type movie but it ended up being one of the worst films of this genre.  BvS (theatrical and extended) was too long and very boring.  It had so many missteps and mistakes that make he film just ridiculous.  Man of Steel was only okay.  WW is the *only* good DCEU film thus far but I’m worried their being pinned into corners somewhat with certain decisions made during the first film (killing off Steve Trevor, for instance).
> 
> This series of films have proven to be unsuccessful by the lackluster box office performance of JL (should have been an Avengers-level success...and likely would have if not for the poorly reviewed and poor performances of the prior films).
> 
> Ben Affleck, arguably the most important player in the DCEU due to the character he portrays, may not return to the role.
> ...


The DCEU is filled with too many stupid ideas; An old Batman was way too early not to mention a fight between him and Superman, Lex Luthor was cringy and awful was embarrassing, Ezra Miller came off cringy and definitely not Barry Allen, Suicide Squad should've never followed the new 52 version that dug it's own grave.

Everything was rushed amd forced into the movies. I can't believe I wasn't hype for JL. People keep saying if WB didn't interfere with Snyder none of this wouldve happen which is wrong. Snyder should've never been allowed to touch the DCU period. His stuff was cut but he still presented many of these horrible ideas. The one thing I compliment him on is the visual and use of Krypotonians.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Sometimes being a fan means voting with your wallet.
> 
> And wallet-voting is very binary. It's either "yes, I love this, give me more of this, don't change a thing" or "this comic or movie or game sucks, try to do better next time".


And for some voting with my wallet is the only way to make DC/WB there’s more to their universe than Batman. 

They don’t have to scrap anything with the DCEU. Zack isn’t the problem. The critics who’ve cozied up to Marvel over the years just want everything spelled out for them like they’re watching Dora the Explorer. And if they wait even longer the Marvel comparisons are gonna be evern harser and audiences will flock over Marvel for stepping out of their comfort zone (yeah I know about Fox and Sony rights) while DC is still stuck with their almighty Batman.

----------


## Jon-El

I'm interested to see how Thor performs now. I went last week during the day & had my pick of seats. Had my pick of rows actually. I'll be interested in how Black Panther does. I know at work, there's virtually no interest in any of these comic book films.  I don't think the genre is dying but it's probably lost some of it's magic. Seeing the amazing effects probably isn't that big a deal anymore. Seeing super heroes brought to life isn't as special. I remember practically tearing up watching Daredevil!  I never dreamed I'd see these things on the screen.  Regardless how good Justice League is, I just think it's coming late in the super hero movie craze. I also don't know how invested casual people are in this universe.  Saw whatever about Marvel but their slow buildup to Avengers was brilliant. Hardcore comic fans may not love it but it got people interested in characters like Iron Man & Thor that had no name recognition. 

Going to see it in about 2 hours.  Thor & Justice League in consecutive weeks.  This would've been an absolute dream when I was a kid.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I would swap out Suicide Squad 2 with a proper Superman solo sequel. He's one of the few things in this film getting some consistent praise, they should take advantage of that and give Cavill the universally beloved movie the poor bastard deserves. They probably won't though. 
> 
> Otherwise, do the sure thing of giving Jenkins and Reeves full control of their films, and see how Wan does with Aquaman before announcing any more movies.


This! Honestly even though JL underperformed , everyone who has seen it has said Superman was a highlight if not THE highlight. Put Vaughn or even Patty Jenkins on it and give Cavill at least one more shot at a solo Superman film with Brainiac as the villain. If it doesn't work out at the box office at least Cavill's got a decent shot at another Superman movie where he is a star and after that just rest Supes for awhile. Suicide Squad was a hit but I doubt a sequel will fare as well. A Superman stand alone may be less risky at this point honestly.

----------


## Robanker

> This! Honestly even though JL underperformed , everyone who has seen it has said Superman was a highlight if not THE highlight. Put Vaughn or even Patty Jenkins on it and give Cavill at least one more shot at a solo Superman film with Brainiac as the villain. If it doesn't work out at the box office at least Cavill's got a decent shot at another Superman movie where he is a star and after that just rest Supes for awhile. Suicide Squad was a hit but I doubt a sequel will fare as well. A Superman stand alone may be less risky at this point honestly.


Pretty much everything you just said. I liked Cavill in other things, and while MoS/BvS were not a Superman I was a fan of, I don't blame him for what turned me off those. This time around, he totally nailed it and definitely earned another solo outing, hopefully with a director who isn't afraid of fun and color in their films. Brainiac is also my choice for a villain. We live in a world where everyone has some gadgets in their pockets. You could do a lot of fun things in a film with that, forcing Superman to be clever instead of just punching an alien through a building.

----------


## Soubhagya

> This! Honestly even though JL underperformed , everyone who has seen it has said Superman was a highlight if not THE highlight. Put Vaughn or even Patty Jenkins on it and give Cavill at least one more shot at a solo Superman film with Brainiac as the villain. If it doesn't work out at the box office at least Cavill's got a decent shot at another Superman movie where he is a star and after that just rest Supes for awhile. Suicide Squad was a hit but I doubt a sequel will fare as well. A Superman stand alone may be less risky at this point honestly.






> Pretty much everything you just said. I liked Cavill in other things, and while MoS/BvS were not a Superman I was a fan of, I don't blame him for what turned me off those. This time around, he totally nailed it and definitely earned another solo outing, hopefully with a director who isn't afraid of fun and color in their films. Brainiac is also my choice for a villain. We live in a world where everyone has some gadgets in their pockets. You could do a lot of fun things in a film with that, forcing Superman to be clever instead of just punching an alien through a building.


All of this! I agree with this. If nothing keep a more down to earth villain like Parasite or Metallo. That might cost less if they fear to spend 200 million plus in another film. I am down for anything with Henry Cavill now. I liked DCEU Superman earlier. I love him now.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Seen it. Directors and producers should NEVER use the fans' opinion as a point of reference when they are creating a movie. In most cases, fans don't know what they really want. Of course, directors and producers shouldn't do a movie to deliberately contradict fans (even if thought-provoking movies can be interesting even within the superhero lore, I guess), but the problem is - they should do their own damn thing and create something with a coherent vision, a project which may CONVINCE people of what they are aiming at. Putting a lot of light moments and fan.


Reminds me of an old Alan Moore quote, Ill paraphrase: Dont give the audience what they want give them what they need.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Reminds me of an old Alan Moore quote, I’ll paraphrase: “Don’t give the audience what they want give them what they need.”


Sounds like he was sort of paraphrasing Henry Ford who said “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

----------


## Soubhagya

> Reminds me of an old Alan Moore quote, I’ll paraphrase: “Don’t give the audience what they want give them what they need.”


And how to decide what is the need and what is the want? Its not just fans. (Though i was not complaining about killing Zod or destroying Metropolis). Look at critics. If you look carefully they are kinder to JL.  May not be much but an improvement nonetheless. Not as much as they wanted but still its something of a start.

But i guess there was so much damage already that this did not help.

----------


## HaveAtThee

DC should just focus now on Aquaman, Flash and Shazam and especially Wonder Woman.  Four unique and colorful characters.  Keep the films relatively self-contained with a few nods to the other characters.  However, I still think Superman should get a proper sequel with a different director.  If they hold off on a JL sequel for a few years and actually take the time to develop the characters, they can certainly rebound from their sluggish start.

----------


## Barbatos666

> I would swap out Suicide Squad 2 with a proper Superman solo sequel. He's one of the few things in this film getting some consistent praise, they should take advantage of that and give Cavill the universally beloved movie the poor bastard deserves. They probably won't though. 
> 
> Otherwise, do the sure thing of giving Jenkins and Reeves full control of their films, and see how Wan does with Aquaman before announcing any more movies.


I think Wonder Woman 2, Shazam and Aquaman are a given at this point and so is Batman but that'll probably get released in 2020. MOS 2 I dont see happening at all and I think SS 2 is also in trouble as well as Batgirl and GCS because of Whedon and Ayer. They're only interested in Harley so they'll sign off on that film with her and Joker and if that is a success they'll follow it up with GCS later.
Nightwing and Deathstroke will get their films as well eventually but everything else eh.

I think we can forget JL 2, Batgirl, GL, Cyborg and the Flash.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> DC should just focus now on Aquaman, Flash and Shazam and especially Wonder Woman.  Four unique and colorful characters.  Keep the films relatively self-contained with a few nods to the other characters.  However, I still think Superman should get a proper sequel with a different director.  If they hold off on a JL sequel for a few years and actually take the time to develop the characters, they can certainly rebound from their sluggish start.


They are still going to do Batman and related characters such as Batgirl, Joker & Harley, Nightwing, and probably Gotham City Sirens because Batman & friends are still DC's bread and butter.
Batman is still a beloved character and people loved Batman in Justice League just as much as the other characters. So the focus on Batman isn't going away any time soon.

----------


## Barbatos666

> They are still going to do Batman and related characters such as Batgirl, Joker & Harley, Nightwing, and probably Gotham City Sirens because Batman & friends are still DC's bread and butter.
> Batman is still a beloved character and people loved Batman in Justice League just as much as the other characters. So the focus on Batman isn't going away any time soon.


They'll do Batman and Nightwing but Whedon is toxic now and he's the only reason Batgirl is being made. Same goes for Ayer/SS and GCS, they'll make Harley and Joker with another director and call it a day.
I fully expect a major shake up for the DCEU moving forward.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Reminds me of an old Alan Moore quote, I’ll paraphrase: “Don’t give the audience what they want give them what they need.”


Not sure if they were catering to the audiences as opposed to the critics who expect every superhero film to have the same tone as Marvel.

----------


## Myskin

> Not sure if they were catering to the audiences as opposed to the critics who expect every superhero film to have the same tone as Marvel.


Critics also praised Dark Knight, Deadpool and Logan which are completely different from what is considered the usual Marvel style. Heck, even if it is a different format Legion is universally praised as one of the most original works in the superhero field (it is not strictly superheroes, but still).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> They'll do Batman and Nightwing but Whedon is toxic now and he's the only reason Batgirl is being made. Same goes for Ayer/SS and GCS, they'll make Harley and Joker with another director and call it a day.
> I fully expect a major shake up for the DCEU moving forward.


What happened that made Ayer toxic all of a sudden?  Was in he some sort of sex scandal? Last I heard he was on pretty good terms with WB and GCS was still a go.

----------


## Frontier

> They'll do Batman and Nightwing but Whedon is toxic now and he's the only reason Batgirl is being made. Same goes for Ayer/SS and GCS, they'll make Harley and Joker with another director and call it a day.
> I fully expect a major shake up for the DCEU moving forward.


Is it too much to hope for that this shake up will lead to a new Joker actor  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## brandnewfan

Zach Snyder has got to go.

----------


## Barbatos666

> What happened that made Ayer toxic all of a sudden?  Was in he some sort of sex scandal? Last I heard he was on pretty good terms with WB and GCS was still a go.


Almost all people associated with MOS,JL,BVS and SS are all toxic at this point.
They've also giving Joker and Harley the go ahead as well.They could've easily fit Joker in to GCS  but if they're planning a separate movie for them then it rules out Sirens. Margot isn't a cartoon on a paper, they cant publish multiple movies with her simultaneously. And knowing WB is Joker and Harley succeeds then they'll just give it a sequel and if it fails they drop Harley altogether. Either way its not looking good for Ayer and Sirens.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Is it too much to hope for that this shake up will lead to a new Joker actor ?


They're making a separate film for Joker right? Set in a new universe.

----------


## Jon-El

IMG_0138.jpg

Eight year old me would've lost my mind seeing a marquee like this!!

----------


## Confuzzled

> Almost all people associated with MOS,JL,BVS and SS are all toxic at this point.
> They've also giving Joker and Harley the go ahead as well.They could've easily fit Joker in to GCS  but if they're planning a separate movie for them then it rules out Sirens. Margot isn't a cartoon on a paper, they cant publish multiple movies with her simultaneously. And knowing WB is Joker and Harley succeeds then they'll just give it a sequel and if it fails they drop Harley altogether. Either way its not looking good for Ayer and Sirens.


How is SS toxic? It made 745 worldwide without China, had a chart topping music album and the costumes and merchandise sold like crazy. And Robbie's Harley Quinn and David Ayer were the biggest part of that. Robbie will probably get Oscar buzz for _I, Tonya_ and maybe a nomination too and WB will want her back. Apparently at the DCEU panel last month in Paris Comic Con, Gotham City Sirens was included in the upcoming roster shown at San Diego Comic Con (Justice League Dark was the one that was dropped, and with JL underwhelming, I don't see a rush to make anything with "Justice League" in its title for a little while).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Almost all people associated with MOS,JL,BVS and SS are all toxic at this point.
> They've also giving Joker and Harley the go ahead as well.They could've easily fit Joker in to GCS  but if they're planning a separate movie for them then it rules out Sirens. Margot isn't a cartoon on a paper, they cant publish multiple movies with her simultaneously. And knowing WB is Joker and Harley succeeds then they'll just give it a sequel and if it fails they drop Harley altogether. Either way its not looking good for Ayer and Sirens.


It was specifically stated in several follow-up articles that even though a Joker & Harley movie is being planned, Gotham City Sirens hasn't been dropped. 
Isn't the whole point of an extended universe is that the characters and actors that play them extend across multiple movies?  So it doesn't make sense that Joker wouldn't have some part 
in Gotham City Sirens.  No one said they were going to make all the movies at the same time.  Basically you are predicating Ayer is out and GCS not getting made on the idea that J&H fails.

----------


## Johnny

I miss the DCAU.

----------


## Confuzzled

> IMG_0138.jpg
> 
> Eight year old would've lost my mind seeing a marquee like this!!


8 year old you was a big Hercule Poirot fan?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jon-El

Bad Moms 2!!!!!!

----------


## Confuzzled

> It was specifically stated in several follow-up articles that even though a Joker & Harley movie is being planned, Gotham City Sirens hasn't been dropped. 
> Isn't the whole point of an extended universe is that the characters and actors that play them extend across multiple movies?  So it doesn't make sense that Joker wouldn't have some part 
> in Gotham City Sirens.  No one said they were going to make all the movies at the same time.  Basically you are predicating Ayer is out and GCS not getting made on the idea that J&H fails.


Not just that but last month it was GCS and not the Harley/Joker movie that was included in the Comic Con roster line-up. And with Wonder Woman being the only movie that was critically well-received, I think the female titles are safe (maybe even Batgirl but GCS seems safer than Batgirl at this point).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think Wonder Woman 2, Shazam and Aquaman are a given at this point and so is Batman but that'll probably get released in 2020. MOS 2 I dont see happening at all and I think SS 2 is also in trouble as well as Batgirl and GCS because of Whedon and Ayer. They're only interested in Harley so they'll sign off on that film with her and Joker and if that is a success they'll follow it up with GCS later.
> Nightwing and Deathstroke will get their films as well eventually but everything else eh.
> 
> I think we can forget JL 2, Batgirl, GL, Cyborg and the Flash.


IDK, I think a Superman announcement would go over well, even now. The general audience is clearly interested in seeing the character and probably even Cavill in the role despite the issues with the movies he was in.  They are responding to him very well even in this sinking ship of a movie. As long as they don't go nuts with the budget and give it to a talented director with minimal to no studio meddling, we could be looking at a critical and audience hit on par with Wonder Woman. 




> I miss the DCAU.


I miss parts of it, specifically the Batman stuff.

Even in this move though, Wonder Woman is being much better served than in the DCAU.

----------


## Random killer x

The thing is what keeps Marvel in check is that they have a long storyline set ahead of time, DC is just randomly throwing things out there. WB is doing too much of this wait and see game. Just have a mini plan and stick with it at this point at least.

 I think the next few movies should be Aquaman of course, The Batman, Flashpoint, a MOS and Wonder Woman sequel. Shazam should be put on hold for now. Shazam is just a weird choice right now just as was Suicide Squad at that time. What bugs me up to this point is that it has been really a DCEU revolving around Superman, let him have a proper sequel!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Zach Snyder has got to go.


This is literally none of his fault, the poor guy hasn't even scene his own damn film, left production due to unfortunate circumstances WB said a lot of good things on paper but in reality threw him under the bus... Again.

----------


## Barbatos666

> How is SS toxic? It made 745 worldwide without China, had a chart topping music album and the costumes and merchandise sold like crazy. And Robbie's Harley Quinn and David Ayer were the biggest part of that. Robbie will probably get Oscar buzz for _I, Tonya_ and maybe a nomination too and WB will want her back. Apparently at the DCEU panel last month in Paris Comic Con, Gotham City Sirens was included in the upcoming roster shown at San Diego Comic Con (Justice League Dark was the one that was dropped, and with JL underwhelming, I don't see a rush to make anything with "Justice League" in its title for a little while).


And that's why I said we'll get Harley and Joker.  BVS made 875 million and yet JL looks like it may not even go over 750 million. SS 2 will be dead on arrival if its gets similarly bad reviews.
WB knows people like Harley so they'll just get someone else to direct that film with Joker. They realistically have no reason to bother with SS and Ayer.

----------


## Barbatos666

> It was specifically stated in several follow-up articles that even though a Joker & Harley movie is being planned, Gotham City Sirens hasn't been dropped. 
> Isn't the whole point of an extended universe is that the characters and actors that play them extend across multiple movies?  So it doesn't make sense that Joker wouldn't have some part 
> in Gotham City Sirens.  No one said they were going to make all the movies at the same time.  Basically you are predicating Ayer is out and GCS not getting made on the idea that J&H fails.


I'm just saying that why should WB sign off on GCS  when they can release Joker and Harley? And ofcourse if that film succeeds then direct sequels are a given. If it doesn't do well then in typical WB fashion they'll drop everything.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I miss the DCAU.


You got me to put in my season two DVD set of Batman Beyond  :Big Grin:

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm just saying that why should WB sign off on GCS  when they can release Joker and Harley?


When your only critically well-received movie so far is being hailed as an instant feminist classic, and you have the choice between: 

A. A toxic love story 
B. Sisters looking out for themselves (as confirmed by Ayer and he also seems to be taking elements from Brubaker's acclaimed _Catwoman_ run with teasing Black Mask as the main villain for the Sirens)

Well, you do the math.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The thing is what keeps Marvel in check is that they have a long storyline set ahead of time, DC is just randomly throwing things out there. WB is doing too much of this wait and see game. Just have a mini plan and stick with it at this point at least.
> 
>  I think the next few movies should be Aquaman of course, The Batman, Flashpoint, a MOS and Wonder Woman sequel. Shazam should be put on hold for now. Shazam is just a weird choice right now just as was Suicide Squad at that time. What bugs me up to this point is that it has been really a DCEU revolving around Superman, let him have a proper sequel!


TBF Marvel might have been as confused if they had the movie rights to X-Men, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four too. In many ways, terrible 90's business led to helping make Feige and Perlmutter's decisions for them as to which franchises to focus upon.

I think WB's plan was to focus on solos next, irrespective of how JL performed (the second post-credit scene begs that almost every major JL-er get a solo adventure out first, introducing an archnemesis or major villain for each of them before JL2). Suicide Squad and Shazam are their own kinda things in their own little corners, so they don't add or subtract much to the bigger picture any which way.

----------


## Jokerz79

> When your only critically well-received movie so far is being hailed as an instant feminist classic, and you have the choice between: 
> 
> A. A toxic love story 
> B. Sisters looking out for themselves (as confirmed by Ayer and he also seems to be taking elements from Brubaker's acclaimed _Catwoman_ run with teasing Black Mask as the main villain for the Sirens)
> 
> Well, you do the math.


I don't view Joker and Harley as a love story. She loves him completely but he really doesn't care for her he's just using her and that's the Joke to him IMO.

Personally I'd rather see Gotham City Sirens.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> DC should just focus now on Aquaman, Flash and Shazam and especially Wonder Woman.  Four unique and colorful characters.  Keep the films relatively self-contained with a few nods to the other characters.  However, I still think Superman should get a proper sequel with a different director.  If they hold off on a JL sequel for a few years and actually take the time to develop the characters, they can certainly rebound from their sluggish start.



DC should also have a firmer plan going further. I speculate the reason they didn't announce release date for the movies(sans Wonder Woman) because they were waiting to see how Justice League would pan out before they could adjust and move forward with a more solid plan.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

This sums up how we got to the point where a Justice League movie could disappoint at the box office:

http://heroicuniverse.com/three-reas...ng-box-office/

----------


## Doctor Know

The DCEU will endure.

JL domestic estimate is $96 million opening weekend.
International estimate $185 million so far. 


Def get the word out and encourage others to go see it. If the film's legs can hold till Star Wars Episode 8 and or if JL can do $400 million domestic, the DCEU should be in good shape moving forward. 


I'm on my way now to see it again.

----------


## Barbatos666

> When your only critically well-received movie so far is being hailed as an instant feminist classic, and you have the choice between: 
> 
> A. A toxic love story 
> B. Sisters looking out for themselves (as confirmed by Ayer and he also seems to be taking elements from Brubaker's acclaimed _Catwoman_ run with teasing Black Mask as the main villain for the Sirens)
> 
> Well, you do the math.


Except this version of the relationship is not so toxic and they can easily invert the traditional tropes so that they support feminist ideals.
They can make them equal partners or they can make it about Harley overcoming Joker. Personally I'd rather have Sirens over this but if I was a suit I'd find Joker and Harley directed by someone not named Ayer far more tempting

----------


## Confuzzled

> Except this version of the relationship is not so toxic and they can easily invert the traditional tropes so that they support feminist ideals.
> They can make them equal partners or they can make it about Harley overcoming Joker. Personally I'd rather have Sirens over this but if I was a suit I'd find Joker and Harley directed by someone not named Ayer far more tempting


Harley overpowering Joker or not making the relationship toxic enough in their very first movie together would invite fanboy ire, Joker treating Harley like crap would invite feminist ire, there is no winning there anyway.

At least many feminists have been fond of the Harley & Ivy relationship and after Wonder Woman's success, the time is right to reintroduce DC's other most iconic lady into cinemas, Catwoman. Fanboys would be game for watching sexy ladies together as well, so it seems a much better scenario, especially if Ayer is given strong female writers and support in general (or Ayer can just be a producer and consultant and a more fitting director could take over for him).

----------


## Jokerz79

> The DCEU will endure.
> 
> JL domestic estimate is $96 million opening weekend.
> International estimate $185 million so far. 
> 
> 
> Def get the word out and encourage others to go see it. If the film's legs can hold till Star Wars Episode 8 and or if JL can do $400 million domestic, the DCEU should be in good shape moving forward. 
> 
> 
> I'm on my way now to see it again.


I think unfortunately it's toast on Thursday when Pixar's Coco comes out Coco is the highest grossing movie ever in Mexico, it has a 97% RT as of now, and it's getting good buzz I feel bad for Justice League but I definitely see Coco taking the Number One spot next weekend.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> This sums up how we got to the point where a Justice League movie could disappoint at the box office:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/three-reas...ng-box-office/


Yep, thanks for linking this article. Everything about it is true.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Also made $$, though yeah, it was disappointing and affected JL's opening too.


MOS, BvS and SS's reception all affected JL sales.  All the BvS apologists have to admit that.  WB's biggest mistake was keeping Snyder after BvS's reception.  I'm not even a Snyder hater at all but being stubborn cost them.  




> JL did not have that. There was no positive vibes. The audiences were burned by BvS and SS. To think that they could pull on 200 million plus was wrong. Its expecting that the common public cares for Justice League. But truthfully, they don't. Its we fans who care for that. For us they are a big deal. Not necessarily so for the casual audience. Yet a figure around 100 million is under performance.


JL's opening weekend compared to BvS is kind of proof that audiences felt burned by BvS and weren't going to give JL a shot.   




> I seriously can’t believe we’re at this point. The Justice League has failed to generate excitement and a huge box-office. THE JUSTICE LEAGUE! For decades this team was the end all of the genre. It’s a movie that people all over the world have waited for since we were children. But now it will probably struggle to break even. WB simply screwed up. 
> For the most part I agree but I wouldn’t say “failure” as much as it hasn’t nearly lived up to its potential. 
> 
> So I really can’t blame the average moviegoers for not feeling much excitement for the DCEU. You can only feed people a subpar product for so long before they’ve had enough.


JL is undoubtedly a failure with BvS's reception being a major contributing factor.  These sales will probably wake up WB.  Snyder, Terrio, Goyer should be kept away if they want to further course correct. I thought BvS was OK but far from great.  Let's stop pretending that Snyder had some great, perfect vision.  You may have liked it but many clearly disagreed and it carried over to JL.

----------


## Doctor Know

> I think unfortunately it's toast on Thursday when Pixar's Coco comes out Coco is the highest grossing movie ever in Mexico, it has a 97% RT as of now, and it's getting good buzz I feel bad for Justice League but I definitely see Coco taking the Number One spot next weekend.


Two things.

1. Americans and other nations didn't really get hyped about The Book of Life. A similar Day Of The Dead movie. So Coco doing gangbusters in Mexico, isn't surprising.

2. This is the Pixar that puts out schlock like Cars 3 and The Good Dinosaur. Neither of which set the world on fire. Pixar doesn't have it like it used to anymore.

Anything could happen, but I think JL will hold.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

BvS reception has very little to do with this, it did well at the BO and home video sales, consequently SS and WW both also did well commercially, with the latter being under Snyder's production studio as well as Snyder having credit in the film for story. 

JL was the last cb film of an already stacked year and released mere weeks after Thor, last year Xmen made that mistake coming off of Civil War and the previous DOFP was a critical and commercial success, seems audiences aren't taking to two CBMs in one month. 

JL unlike any film this year has it's production problems well documented also given the history of WB cutting BvS a shorter run time of JL probably turned a fair few people off. 

People blaming Snyder and co that's exactly who WB want you to blame, all the blame should lie at their feet, they tried to pander this film to a select group and it backfired completely. Bet Kevin is sat somewhere in his rich house with egg on his face.

----------


## Herowatcher

Justice League...another "I'll pass" for me.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Two things.
> 
> 1. Americans and other nations didn't really get hyped about The Book of Life. A similar Day Of The Dead movie. So Coco doing gangbusters in Mexico, isn't surprising.
> 
> 2. This is the Pixar that puts out schlock like Cars 3 and The Good Dinosaur. Neither of which set the world on fire. Pixar doesn't have it like it used to anymore.
> 
> Anything could happen, but I think JL will hold.


Strange you'd mention Cars 3 because that schlock dethroned Wonder Woman from number one.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Thor is proof that a comic movie in this season can do very well.  JL doing these numbers is an absolute failure.   BvS had a HUGE affect on JL's opening weekend.  It showed that many of the people who were excited to see BvS opening weekend weren't willing to give JL the same chance given that it is directed by the same director.  To think otherwise is just being a spin doctor.  Cinemascore is the most accurate measure of audience opinion and BvS had a cinemascore equal to Baywatch and Fifty Shades Darker.  You can't spin that and blame it on the critics.

WB does have to take the blame.  The biggest part is keeping Snyder for JL.  He simply has people who don't like his work.  He was almost removed from JL after BvS but WB didn't want to change the JL release date.  That was another mistake.  The proof is this opening weekend.  Don't forget that the reason for the reshoots were because Snyder's first few cuts were deemed "a mess."  Those weren't rumors.

The 5 biggest Snyder supporters here would have you believe that Snyder should take no blame for any of this and that it is always the fault of WB or someone else other than Snyder.

----------


## brandnewfan

> This is literally none of his fault, the poor guy hasn't even scene his own damn film, left production due to unfortunate circumstances WB said a lot of good things on paper but in reality threw him under the bus... Again.


Its not just JL though. BvS was to be the big breakout film for this universe and he made it nearly unwatchable. And yes, Snyder does take blame for JL. Not all the blame, sure. There are a lot of factors. But to say he has no blame in this whatsoever is false.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It’s not just JL though. BvS was to be the big breakout film for this universe and he made it nearly unwatchable. And yes, Snyder does take blame for JL. Not all the blame, sure. There are a lot of factors. But to say he has no blame in this whatsoever is false.


Almost unwatchable? Made just under $900m at the BO plus made on par with CA:CW on domestic video sales. BvS is also still the only DCEU film to have made the most money. Totally made it unwatchable. 

Also he is blameless it's not his fault WB hired him for JL. He was just doing his job.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> The DCEU will endure.
> 
> JL domestic estimate is $96 million opening weekend.
> International estimate $185 million so far. 
> 
> 
> Def get the word out and encourage others to go see it. If the film's legs can hold till Star Wars Episode 8 and or if JL can do $400 million domestic, the DCEU should be in good shape moving forward. 
> 
> 
> I'm on my way now to see it again.


Interesting. It's done almost 282 million worldwide then. Not as terrible as I feared.

It's not hopeless. If it manages to not see a BvS sized drop off and holds on to #1 next weekend and holds on in the top 3 until Star Wars, it may do better than some are predicting. Fingers crossed.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Interesting. It's done almost 282 million worldwide then. Not as terrible as I feared.
> 
> It's not hopeless. If it manages to not see a BvS sized drop off and holds on to #1 next weekend and holds on in the top 3 until Star Wars, it may do better than some are predicting. Fingers crossed.


I wonder if anybody has even considered that it's four days before Thanksgiving in the U.S., and many people are busy traveling/preparing for the holiday.  If that's a factor, WB botched the timing of the release.

I think this movie really should have hit the cinemas within a week or two of Comic-Con 2017.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## FlashEarthOne

To call Snyder blameless because he was hired is insane.  If an employee does an unsatisfactory job that is on the employee.  The employer may have made the mistake of hiring them, but more of the blame goes to the employee who didn't do the job that the employer expected.  Any employee takes credit for a good job equally as much as a bad job.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I wonder if anybody has even considered that it's four days before Thanksgiving in the U.S., and many people are busy traveling/preparing for the holiday.  If that's a factor, WB botched the timing of the release.
> 
> I think this movie really should have hit the cinemas within a week or two of Comic-Con 2017.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


There are way too many variables.  You will never accurately or equally account for all.  I don't understand how anyone can think that JL has not been a failure financially.  To think that they weren't hoping for a $1 billion movie based on BvS sales is naive.  Tracking had it at $120 million I believe which was less than what they wanted.  Less than $100 million is worse than they could have expected... although they were trying to do damage control with their review embargo.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Interesting. It's done almost 282 million worldwide then. Not as terrible as I feared.
> 
> It's not hopeless. If it manages to not see a BvS sized drop off and holds on to #1 next weekend and holds on in the top 3 until Star Wars, it may do better than some are predicting. Fingers crossed.


Movies make 2/3 of their profit in the first week so don't be so excited about that number. Its opened in all markets and has little money to make elsewhere

----------


## manofsteel1979

> There are way too many variables.  You will never accurately or equally account for all.  I don't understand how anyone can think that JL has not been a failure financially.  To think that they weren't hoping for a $1 billion movie based on BvS sales is naive.  Tracking had it at $120 million I believe which was less than what they wanted.  Less than $100 million is worse than they could have expected... although they were trying to do damage control with their review embargo.


No one is arguing JL won't underperform. It is. There's no denying it. The question is now is will it break even or make just a tiny profit ,or end up losing money. The former means that in a few years we still may get a JL 2 and some solo movies for these characters in between. The later means the entire DCEU slate is in Jeopardy and we may not get anything besides Aquaman, a Wonder Woman trilogy and Reeves Batman, and if it loses enough money, nothing aside from Aquaman is a done deal. As fans of this universe I am hoping for the former. The later means everyone loses. The studio, the fans and these characters. 

Snyder is gone and would have been gone in any case unless JL became a historic smash hit, and even then the chance he'd be involved in the future beyond having his name in a ceremonial exec producer position was very small. He was hired to direct a trilogy of movies and that's what he did, even though the original plan changed at least twice. It's a new day. I just pray we get a chance to see it.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Movies make 2/3 of their profit in the first week so don't be so excited about that number. Its opened in all markets and has little money to make elsewhere


I'm not excited, but I'm trying to be positive. Doom and gloom does no one any good. For the sake of these characters we better hope this movie breaks even at least. It's the best case scenario.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I wonder if anybody has even considered that it's four days before Thanksgiving in the U.S., and many people are busy traveling/preparing for the holiday.  If that's a factor, WB botched the timing of the release.
> 
> I think this movie really should have hit the cinemas within a week or two of Comic-Con 2017.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Agreed, or at very least held off past Christmas and into the new year.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Agreed, or at very least held off past Christmas and into the new year.


They burned a lot of money on Moustache-gate too, it's crazy why they were so adamant it had to be released this year. Someone who worked on the VFX (one of a million people) said that WB essentially were stupid. 

They wanted Avengers lite... They got it. Except for the BO returns and critical appraisal... Gg Kevin and co.

----------


## Troian

> Almost unwatchable? Made just under $900m at the BO plus made on par with CA:CW on domestic video sales. BvS is also still the only DCEU film to have made the most money. Totally made it unwatchable. 
> 
> Also he is blameless it's not his fault WB hired him for JL. He was just doing his job.


Lol Synder is not blameless. Thats some bs right there. But he is not the end all be all reason. WB is at fault too. They got greedy and rushed this entire thing. 

They hired him and Snyder came up with empty promises. Anyways, I don't know anyone is shocked. Snyder movies usually get critically panned/meh reviews from critics and the audience response is usually a love/hate one. He has several films that had failed to acheieve a 2x weekend multiplier. Tbh given how he has multple box office flops like Sucker Punch, Watchmen and Legend of The Guardians but was still given the keys to the DCEU, he be better thanking his lucky stars that Deborah Snyder is a producer, has connections with WB and helped co-found his production company. 

And the only reason why BvS made so much is because of hype. Look at the giant drops it saw. 

The dceu will continue though as WW showed that there is still hope. But JL 2 won't be out for a while.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> WB does have to take the blame.  The biggest part is keeping Snyder for JL.  He simply has people who don't like his work.  He was almost removed from JL after BvS but WB didn't want to change the JL release date.  That was another mistake.  The proof is this opening weekend.  Don't forget that the reason for the reshoots were because Snyder's first few cuts were deemed "a mess."  Those weren't rumors.


You can't completely  blame  them though, if it weren't for the fact  that Snyder was already knee-deep into pre-production on  Justice League they would've replaced him.  It would've cost them a lot of money to replace Snyder.  And they still respected Snyder enough to be willing to work with him  to make the  best film feasible under new restrictions.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Agreed, or at very least held off past Christmas and into the new year.


JMO I know this might sound really crazy given how long away this is but they should had shelved while Snyder dealt with his grief and allow the special effects people more time to do their jobs then allow Zack to comeback to finish the film and released it Late August or September of 2018. It's the only time period in 2018 I can see which doesn't have any major releases or franchise films. I know it would had been a long time but it would had given time to have gotten all the kinks out and given little competition at the box office.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Posted this a couple pages back but it does a good job of explaining why JL is failing at the box office.

http://heroicuniverse.com/three-reas...ng-box-office/

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Agreed, or at very least held off past Christmas and into the new year.


It looks like they are trying to mirror the scheduling of Fantastic Beasts.  It made $800+ million worldwide with $200+ domestic by having legs for a month.  Granted it had much higher critical and audience reception than JL.  However JL has the same competition in a Pixar movie a week later and a Star Wars movie almost a month later.   I'm pretty sure WB was confident that JL would easily surpass Fantastic Beasts until they wind of the critical reviews which was the reason for the review embargo.  Review embargos that late in the game never lead to great critical reviews with the exception of Force Awakens.   I said over a month ago that the review embargo worried me much more than the run time.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Posted this a couple pages back but it does a good job of explaining why JL is failing at the box office.
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/three-reas...ng-box-office/


The damaged brand is the #1 issue in my opinion.  They needed a fresh start with JL.  Having the same writer and director didn't help.  Neither did having two directors.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Posted this a couple pages back but it does a good job of explaining why JL is failing at the box office.
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/three-reas...ng-box-office/


Those are all important factors.

----------


## Jon-El

I don't think people are avoiding the film because of who directed it. That might apply for hardcore comics fans or hardcore movie buffs but not for the casual moviegoer. It just takes a lot to get people to the theater. Most guys I work with will be passing the movie around on DVD this week. Only a handful of people I work with will set foot in a theater. I myself average about 4 or 5 movies a year. I just don't have time. For others with families, the issue is money. I doubt most people have a clue who directed any of these films.  I also doubt most people view this as the third act in a trilogy. If they did, there'd be more interest in seeing it. 

I watched today and honestly, it was ok. Too much was being crammed into the first hour & I was slightly bored. Second half was decent. To me, the DC films feel more like modern comics than the Marvel films. Modern comics are pretty dense & require some commitment to follow.  I'm not sure mimicking that type of storytelling is the way to do a film. An average person, going to see a movie with super heroes is probably expecting something simpler. 

Decent film with some good moments but it would've benefited from more solo movies beforehand. The spectacle of seeing a bunch of characters on a screen isn't that special anymore.  Odd choice of villain I think. I couldn't even tell you what Steppenwolf looks like in the comics.

----------


## Sodam Yat

The Justice League movie did seem to get some negative publicity. So I'm not that surprised about it.

I guess it's a good time for Flashpoint.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> JMO I know this might sound really crazy given how long away this is but they should had shelved while Snyder dealt with his grief and allow the special effects people more time to do their jobs then allow Zack to comeback to finish the film and released it Late August or September of 2018. It's the only time period in 2018 I can see which doesn't have any major releases or franchise films. I know it would had been a long time but it would had given time to have gotten all the kinks out and given little competition at the box office.


I agree. I think everyone would have understood given the circumstances. Plus they could have at least waited until Cavill finished MI so he could have shaved the stache and done some of the reshoots then so we could have avoided  at least some of the CGI stuff with his face. Maybe even beefed up Steppenwolf a little more and find a better balance.

----------


## Robotman

> JL is undoubtedly a failure with BvS's reception being a major contributing factor.  These sales will probably wake up WB.  Snyder, Terrio, Goyer should be kept away if they want to further course correct. I thought BvS was OK but far from great.  Let's stop pretending that Snyder had some great, perfect vision.  You may have liked it but many clearly disagreed and it carried over to JL.


I totally agree. I wasn’t trying to imply that Snyder was blameless. His style divided the fan base and brought scorn from critics. I walked out of BvS actually pissed off and embarrassed as a DC Comics fan (especially as a Superman fan!). The Ultimate Edition was better because it fixed a few of the Superman issues (he actually tried to save people after the explosion instead of just fly away like an asshole) but overall i still didn’t love it. Snyder’s style and WB’s meddling together has given the DCEU brand a horrible stigma.




> The damaged brand is the #1 issue in my opinion.  They needed a fresh start with JL.  Having the same writer and director didn't help.  Neither did having two directors.


Agreed. They really should have handed the reins over to a new director and distanced the movie from BvS. Give Snyder a producer credit but that’s it.

----------


## RumpusMagoo

> No one is arguing JL won't underperform. It is. There's no denying it. The question is now is will it break even or make just a tiny profit ,or end up losing money. The former means that in a few years we still may get a JL 2 and some solo movies for these characters in between. The later means the entire DCEU slate is in Jeopardy and we may not get anything besides Aquaman, a Wonder Woman trilogy and Reeves Batman, and if it loses enough money, nothing aside from Aquaman is a done deal. As fans of this universe I am hoping for the former. The later means everyone loses. The studio, the fans and these characters.


I really agree with this. I happen to like Snyder's vision (except for grim Superman), but even if it wasn't for me, I don't wish for this movie to fail. It's a choice between having movies made about these characters or not having them made, and I would rather they be made. There is no guarantee that if they fail, WB is simply going to start over in two years, especially when the industry is expecting the cbm genre to go the way of the western soon.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

It's fair to note Warner's did originally consider delaying the movie in light of  Snyder stepping away from the movie to 2018 but "the Snyder's decided against it."


Boy what a  big mistake.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I totally agree. I wasn’t trying to imply that Snyder was blameless. His style divided the fan base and brought scorn from critics. I walked out of BvS actually pissed off and embarrassed as a DC Comics fan (especially as a Superman fan!). The Ultimate Edition was better because it fixed a few of the Superman issues (he actually tried to save people after the explosion instead of just fly away like an asshole) but overall i still didn’t love it. Snyder’s style and WB’s meddling together has given the DCEU brand a horrible stigma.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. They really should have handed the reins over to a new director and distanced the movie from BvS. Give Snyder a producer credit but that’s it.


People have to stop pretending that the UE fixed everything also.  Many people who I know have seen the UE and basically everyone agrees that it IS better but still shows that Snyder was given too much power and free reign.  Doubling down on Eisenberg as Luthor is risky as hell!   Everyone who I know in the industry (hundreds of people) consistently mention him as something they disliked in  both versions of the movie.  It is still anecodotal but it also matches up with critic and Cinemascore criticisms.  

I truly think that in ten years the decision to keep Snyder after BvS will seen as one of the biggest if not THE biggest mistake in WB's history when you consider how much money the reception to BvS probably cost them.  The movie made money but it damaged and gave the entire DC brand a tarnished name.  The damage done to the brand is atrocious.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's fair to note Warner's did originally consider delaying the movie in light of  Snyder stepping away from the movie to 2018 but "the Snyder's decided against it."
> 
> 
> Boy what big mistake.



It is still not as big as WB's decision not to delay the release by finding another director.

----------


## RumpusMagoo

> It is still not as big as WB's decision not to delay the release by finding another director.


From a publicity standpoint, I'd agree.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I really agree with this. I happen to like Snyder's vision (except for grim Superman), but even if it wasn't for me, I don't wish for this movie to fail. It's a choice between having movies made about these characters or not having them made, and I would rather they be made. There is no guarantee that if they fail, WB is simply going to start over in two years, especially when the industry is expecting the cbm genre to go the way of the western soon.


This is true but on the other hand failure can teach lessons. Sometimes you gotta learn the hard way.

----------


## Nite-Wing

The DCEU needs its own DOFP now
a complete abandoning of the universe is impossible now as they are so deep into it but a true reset is needed to fix a lot of the problems present because they decided to course correct so early on 
I guess the real solution is to focus on solo movies while they plan for what event truly resets the universe. They probably should recast batman with a younger actor too Affleck is clearly over the role now and can't get into shape for it either

----------


## manofsteel1979

> The DCEU needs its own DOFP now
> a complete abandoning of the universe is impossible now as they are so deep into it but a true reset is needed to fix a lot of the problems present because they decided to course correct so early on 
> I guess the real solution is to focus on solo movies while they plan for what event truly resets the universe. They probably should recast batman with a younger actor too Affleck is clearly over the role now and can't get into shape for it either


Nah. The last thing we need is some confusing timey whimmy bullcrap . Just recast Batman with a slightly younger actor than Affleck , focus on making solid and more budget concious movies ,gain the confidence of the movie going audience and go from there. 

The only reason you'd want to use a Flashpoint or Crisis event to " reset" things is to get rid of things for the sake of fan service, Particularly the " not muh Superman" crowd who will only be happy if The MOS back story for Superman is retconned into Donner's  version. I mean honestly that's the only option unless you plan to do Another Superman origin movie, which honestly we don't need. MOS is a fine enough origin. BvS needs not to be directly referrence anymore other than the fact Supes died once and Luthor was exposed as a crook leading to him building a Legion of Doom. We should be moving forward not " fixing" continuity. I mean do we really want the film universe to become the continuity cluster fluck the comics are?

Start down that path and it leads to places the DCEU shouldn't go until a long time from now. In a decade or so when Henry,Gal and co start getting too old to play the roles, then go for the reset option or introduce the Multiverse concept.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Nah. The last thing we need is some confusing timey whimmy bullcrap . Just recast Batman with a slightly younger actor than Affleck , focus on making solid and more budget concious movies ,gain the confidence of the movie going audience and go from there. 
> 
> The only reason you'd want to use a Flashpoint or Crisis event to " reset" things is to get rid of things for the sake of fan service, Particularly the " not muh Superman" crowd who will only be happy if The MOS back story for Superman is retconned into Donner's  version. I mean honestly that's the only option unless you plan to do Another Superman origin movie, which honestly we don't need. MOS is a fine enough origin. BvS needs not to be directly referrence anymore other than the fact Supes died once and Luthor was exposed as a crook leading to him building a Legion of Doom. We should be moving forward not " fixing" continuity. I mean do we really want the film universe to become the continuity cluster fluck the comics are?
> 
> Start down that path and it leads to places the DCEU shouldn't go until a long time from now. In a decade or so when Henry,Gal and co start getting too old to play the roles, then go for the reset option or introduce the Multiverse concept.


I don't think a reboot is necessary yet but this is far more than just the "not muh Superman" people at this moment outside of Wonder Woman this universe has been a mess. MoS was divisive and BvS, SS, and JL are critical failures and financial letdowns. This was the Justice League their gold standard heck it could be argued the gold standard of the comics industry and it's having the lowest domestic opening for a DCEU film. So yeah this brand has issues and it goes beyond Superman.

----------


## Frontier

> *Nah. The last thing we need is some confusing timey whimmy bullcrap* . Just recast Batman with a slightly younger actor than Affleck , focus on making solid and more budget concious movies ,gain the confidence of the movie going audience and go from there.


Then WB shouldn't be producing a _Flashpoint_ movie  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Flash Gordon

Saw JL last night. Had high hopes since the idea of all these characters on screen together is a big, grand deal. I thought this movie was terrible. Just really poorly put together. Seemed like video game cut scenes were just stuck in there and Steppenwolf was a cartoon. 

None of this was the actors' faults. Ezra Miller and Ray Fisher were both good as Flash and Cyborg. Amy Adams, always the movie star, did her best here. I loved seeing Mera. The entire cast was well assembled.

Ben Affleck seemed bored. I felt bad for him. I'd be really surprised if he comes back again.

I'd be interested in seeing what exactly Synder wanted this to be. The first trailer we got was way better than the film.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Warner Bros. is remaining optimistic about "Justice League's" prospects, even with the lower than expected launch against a production budget that's reported to be in the $250 million to $300 million range, which doesn't include marketing expenses.

"I did have a higher expectation for the three days," said Jeff Goldstein, who heads up domestic distribution for Warner Bros. *"(But) this is a big vacation week, and we have an opportunity to get a big audience to see us in a different pattern."*

Goldstein said he is also encouraged by a few factors, including the overall B CinemaScore, the fact that women, who accounted for 42 percent of the audience, gave it an A- overall, and that Saturday earnings were up from Friday's.

"Clearly there is interest in the movie," Goldstein said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/...ening-51258219

Here's Warner's  distribution chief's pathetic PR spin on the Justice League situation. 

Meanwhile  Warner Bros executives are slamming their   heads against the wall in panic mode.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> The first trailer we got was way better than the film.


Isn't that the case with every DCEU film not named Wonder Woman?

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> This is literally none of his fault, the poor guy hasn't even scene his own damn film, left production due to unfortunate circumstances WB said a lot of good things on paper but in reality threw him under the bus... Again.


It's his fault for overstaying his welcome and  not knowing when to leave. He could've left if he wanted to but choose to stay.  I feel horrible for what he's gone through in the midst of the tragedy but he's not going to get absolved of all blame.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I'm not sure where to start, so here it goes. I'll post this in a few threads for visibility since there are so many open right now. 
I've been wanting to type out a long and winded opinion piece on JL, WB, Whedon, Snyder, the fan base, etc. all weekend. 

I saw JL Friday evening in IMAX (I've now seen it twice) and as the opening credits started with the companies and the music, I got goosebumps. I was ready for this movie and after all the years waiting, there I was, about to embark on the first ever live action JL journey. 
Once the post credits scene rolled and I was walking out, I left satisfied, but wanting so much more. I knew this movie had more to offer us in terms of story, characters, and villain arc(s). I can say I really enjoyed Superman (he needs to be like that from now on), and I am a fan of Ray Fisher as Cyborg now and am hopping on the Cyborg bandwagon. 
Miller as Barry is great, Gal continues to rock, and Momoa needed more screen time! Honestly, the weakest link, IN MY OPINION (which is what all this is), was Affleck. It wasn't his acting, nor his execution. It was simply the fact that he was now sharing the screen and sharing hero duties with the freakin' JUSTICE LEAGUE. Having said that, the characters are all on point and I want to see all of them in either solo/origin films or pairings (Flash and Cyborg, for example). 

My biggest issues with the film were what everyone else seem to be saying: the film felt chopped and thus lacked proper development and run time. This movie could have VERY easily given us another 30 mins, which could be about another 5 minutes for every member of the league. 
Now, whether that's on Snyder, Whedon, or Tsujihara (who gave the two hour mandate), I think could be argued from multiple angles. Other than that, I can't say there wasn't much else about the film that I had major issues with. One minor issue was Whedon's lame humor and turning Batman into a joke machine (nah, don't do that again). Some scenes you could tell were Whedon, some Snyder. But honestly, I was just there to have a good time (which I did) and I didn't take much notice. Cavill's CGI lip wasn't _that_ bad, and maybe we would have noticed something was off (or not) had we not known about the mustache issue from MI:6. 

Steppenwolf wasn't bad either. I really think people go out of their way to bash DCEU's CGI, which I can say is no better, nor any worse than the CGI in Dr. Strange, Guardians, or even Thor. Having watched Ragnarok a couple weeks ago, Hela's CGI in some scenes was atrocious as was Surtur's. But no one bats an eye with the MCU. 
Anyway, I liked Steppenwolf's design and thought he was pretty formidable at times. 

Anyway, the critics always back hand DC movies since the Nolan films. They really look for things to nitpick and I think the MCU has ruined how CBMs are analyzed and reviewed (Disney/Marvel has a formula and all their movies look the same). Critics (who DO have impact on Box office and fan opinions) overtly compared JL to the MCU many times. It's clear the critics have their templates now. 
It's pretty obvious this movie will be considered a dud, unless it has Wonder Woman legs and can hit the $800 millions (which is still a possibility). WB should be very concerned with how they treated this film because it may not outgross Thor: Ragnarok now. 

Also, where was all of the advertising?! There was far less than with Wonder Woman and BvS, and I think that may be why this bombed OW. I also haven't seen much advertising towards children. 

Anyway, I could keep going and going, but I'll wrap it up this way: 

-JL is probably my favorite DCEU movie now (and probably second all time behind The Dark Knight).
-It wasn't perfect, but it sure as hell wasn't as bad as critics made it out to be. It was funny, light, serious, and introduced my favorite heroes. 
-Having said that This movie NEEDED MORE TIME! 
-Elfman is done in my book. His score was awful for this movie and completely forgettable. 
-I'd rather Whedon take a hike and stay away from the DCEU and have Snyder gracefully bow out the way he chooses (as long as he isn't directing). 
-Kevin Tsujihara needs to be fired immediately.
-WB needs to find who their rats are leaking so much information before their movies and take care of it (we didn't need to know about Cavill's mustache before the film).
*-Please do NOT reboot!*
The characters are all here and I love everyone of them. If anything, get the Affleck situation resolved, but keep everyone else intact and shift focus on truly director oriented solo films. We don't need a big build up to the New Gods or Apokolips. Good stories need to first come from the numerous titles and characters you have at your disposal and we can keep the big ensemble/team up storylines together in JL films (which I hope we see a sequel of in 3-4 years, although unlikely at this point). 
-Get Flash, Cyborg, Green Lantern, Man of Steel 2 and The Batman lined up ASAP! 



Thank you Zack Snyder for building this universe. I'm sorry you and I couldn't see your finished vision, but I think it's time we move on. Your name as a director for these movies has become very poisonous.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Nah. The last thing we need is some confusing timey whimmy bullcrap . Just recast Batman with a slightly younger actor than Affleck , focus on making solid and more budget concious movies ,gain the confidence of the movie going audience and go from there. 
> ...


Agreed. We don't need a reboot, just a refocus. 
Aquaman is coming out next year, followed by Shazam. Hopefully within the time span we get new of Green Lantern Corps, The Batman, The Flash (and Cyborg?), Man of Steel 2, and Wonder Woman 2. 

Right now, and this is just me, I'm not interested in non-core JL members. Those movies can come later down the line, but WB needs to build up momentum, trust, and brand appeal before launching films like Batgirl, Nightwing, etc. And that can easily be achieved by following a core JL slate like I referenced above. 

They can get everything back on track. Just push Snyder, Whedon, and Tsujihara away and focus on the solo outings. Then, in 3-5 years, revisit via JL2.

----------


## golgi

> I don't think a reboot is necessary yet but this is far more than just the "not muh Superman" people at this moment outside of Wonder Woman this universe has been a mess. MoS was divisive and BvS, SS, and JL are critical failures and financial letdowns. This was the Justice League their gold standard heck it could be argued the gold standard of the comics industry and it's having the lowest domestic opening for a DCEU film. So yeah this brand has issues and it goes beyond Superman.


BVS was a financial letdown, but not Suicide Squad. It had a good BO run without the second biggest market, China. Both BVS and SS showed WB profit.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This is true but on the other hand failure can teach lessons. Sometimes you gotta learn the hard way.


The reality is that DC/Marvel are in a big budget business where too much failure doesn't lead to second chances.  Three consecutive divisive Snyder films along with a divisive Ayer film give them a bad track record of having ONE out of five DC films without positive critical buzz which is important to a movies box office no matter how much the very few Snyder loyalists here want to dismiss critical scores.




> Once the post credits scene rolled and I was walking out, I left satisfied, but wanting so much more. I knew this movie had more to offer us in terms of story, characters, and villain arc(s). I can say I really enjoyed Superman (he needs to be like that from now on), and I am a fan of Ray Fisher as Cyborg now and am hopping on the Cyborg bandwagon. 
> Miller as Barry is great, Gal continues to rock, and Momoa needed more screen time! Honestly, the weakest link, IN MY OPINION (which is what all this is), was Affleck. It wasn't his acting, nor his execution. It was simply the fact that he was now sharing the screen and sharing hero duties with the freakin' JUSTICE LEAGUE. Having said that, the characters are all on point and I want to see all of them in either solo/origin films or pairings (Flash and Cyborg, for example). 
> 
> 
> Anyway, the critics always back hand DC movies since the Nolan films. They really look for things to nitpick and I think the MCU has ruined how CBMs are analyzed and reviewed (Disney/Marvel has a formula and all their movies look the same). Critics (who DO have impact on Box office and fan opinions) overtly compared JL to the MCU many times. It's clear the critics have their templates now. 
> It's pretty obvious this movie will be considered a dud, unless it has Wonder Woman legs and can hit the $800 millions (which is still a possibility). 
> 
> -JL is probably my favorite DCEU movie now (and probably second all time behind The Dark Knight).
> -It wasn't perfect, but it sure as hell wasn't as bad as critics made it out to be. It was funny, light, serious, and introduced my favorite heroes. 
> ...


If Aquaman is critical/audience dud then I think the shared DC Film Universe is close to done.  However I don't think it will be given Wan's critical and box office track record.  Which has a night and day difference from Snyder's record.  The Flash/Flashpoint should be a priority if they can find the right writer and director soon.  Miller has been on record as saying that Flashpoint is starting very soon but that was before this weekend... we will see what happens.  All the JL actors have been very quiet on Instagram since Thursday... they no doubt knew about the reviews.  Miller was very good in JL but he could have been great if either director had reigned him in a little.  I think he will need a stronger director and writer for a Flash solo film.  I'm a little nervous about the liberties he might take if he is the focus of the film and there is no one to reign him in.  Someone definitely needs to show him and demand that he run like an actual sprinter to give the Flash's speed a better aesthetic.  He played up the annoying and odd a little too much at times.  No DC franchise is safer than Wonder Woman.  Even is they decided tp reboot she is safe.  I do agree that Whedon should be kept away from these core properties as well.  





> Agreed. We don't need a reboot, just a refocus. 
> Aquaman is coming out next year, followed by Shazam. Hopefully within the time span we get new of Green Lantern Corps, The Batman, The Flash (and Cyborg?), Man of Steel 2, and Wonder Woman 2. 
> 
> 
> They can get everything back on track. Just push Snyder, Whedon, and Tsujihara away and focus on the solo outings. Then, in 3-5 years, revisit via JL2.


I predict JL2 will be no sooner than 5 years.  I agree that the focus should be on the core JLA members.  Give Shazam, Nightwing a rest until you can get the core properties right,.  Maybe Gotham City Sirens can be an exception given the success of Wonder Woman.  I think they should even put the brakes on SS2.  They need to prioritize and stop trying to sprint before they have even started walking.

----------


## Soubhagya

> There's some serious cognitive dissonance between the box office numbers, the negative vibe in the media, and the fan reaction we're actually seeing in the cinemas.  What on Earth-Prime is going on here?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Aren't we living in worlds of our own? Art is subjective. BvS was hated by most people. Yet you can find a lot of people praise it to no end. Take it and extend it beyond. This time i feel most fans especially DC fans liked it but it wasn't liked by everyone. 

That's the subjective part. Objectively, look at the figures like RT, Metacrtic and Cinemascore. They are fairly accurate. Marvel manages to make films which appeal to both fans and non fans. See their BO. See the scores wrt RT, Metacritic and Cinemascore. You can make only so many divisive films. Transformers fizzled out finally.

As fans, we have different expectations. Green Lantern showing in the screen for a few seconds is something to cheer. For others not so much. Something which works for me won't work for someone else. What others find problematic may not be for me. 

That does not mean that its not possible to have films which can appeal to all. Marvel has expertise here. I loved the film as much as Avengers. But that's not the consensus. 




I wanted to say something like this. So, i copied this from the other thread here.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Aren't we living in worlds of our own? Art is subjective. BvS was hated by most people. Yet you can find a lot of people praise it to no end. Take it and extend it beyond. This time i feel most fans especially DC fans liked it but it wasn't liked by everyone. 
> 
> That's the subjective part. Objectively, look at the figures like RT, Metacrtic and Cinemascore. They are fairly accurate. Marvel manages to make films which appeal to both fans and non fans. See their BO. See the scores wrt RT, Metacritic and Cinemascore. You can make only so many divisive films. Transformers fizzled out finally.


Thank you.  I couldn't agree more.  Objectively you have to look at the figures and accept them for what they are because they are true.  The Snyderverse is DONE and ended with a fizzle.  You can scream at the top of your lungs as much as you want that, "Avengers was terrible.  BvS was WAY better."  That is your opinion but obviously way more people will disagree than agree.  The proof is also in the sales.  People liked Avengers much better.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Thank you.  I couldn't agree more.  Objectively you have to look at the figures and accept them for what they are because they are true.  The Snyderverse is DONE and ended with a fizzle.  You can scream at the top of your lungs as much as you want that, "Avengers was terrible.  BvS was WAY better."  That is your opinion but obviously way more people will disagree than agree.  The proof is also in the sales.  People liked Avengers much better.


Nobody is disagreeing that Avengers is clearly more successful. Nobody is screaming that one movie is objectively definitively better than the other.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Thank you Zack Snyder for building this universe. I'm sorry you and I couldn't see your finished vision, but I think it's time we move on. Your name as a director for these movies has become very poisonous.


To be fair,  Justice League kind of stopped being Snyder's vision after BvS under preformed.  Even if Snyder had remained director Warner's would still have strict oversight on the film regardless; he still would be forced to compromise his vision. After his initial cut tested poorly with Warner's executives they mandated re-shoots using the new Whedon scripted scenes(Contrary to  the PR narrative, it was Johns and Berg, not Snyder, who got Whedon to write new scenes for the reshoots to improve the film after the Snyder cut underwhelmed).

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Nobody is disagreeing that Avengers is clearly more successful. Nobody is screaming that one movie is objectively definitively better than the other.


You aren't and I'm not saying you are.  However I have a damn good memory and I can name five specific posters here who have repeatedly said this since BvS came out.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> The Flash scene you mentioned thoroughly debunked the reddit post. It's amazing someone would go to that much trouble to push a lie of such magnitude after the movie has already opened. The comments thread debunks more of what the reddit poster said but that leaked Flash/Iris scene proves that poster to be full of crap.
> 
> It's funny how many commenters went nuts for his/her made up fanfic. So many people saying, "This is the movie we should have gotten! It would have been so much better!" The fact that it was made up pretty much proves they'd have said that no matter what the made-up version was.


I gotta say that fanfic still sounds so much more compelling than the movie I just watched. 

https://www.resetera.com/threads/com...0#post-1089110

Here's another link to another description that highlights which parts of the film are Whedon and which parts are Snyder.

----------


## Lightning Rider

*Warner Bros.-DCs Justice League dominated the international box office in its opening weekend with $185.5 million at approximately 47,000 screens in 65 markets, led by $51.7 million in China.
*
The costly superhero tentpole is ahead of the international opening weekends for Warners Wonder Woman and Disney-Marvels Thor: Ragnarok. In China, where Justice League screened at 20,500 screens, the film took in 65% of grosses from the top five films and scored the second biggest debut for a Warners title after last years Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.

Justice League ranked first in 10 other Asian markets with $41.2 million as the second highest Warner Bros. launch after Dawn of Justice while Latin America region contributed $35.4 million for the third highest Warner opening after Dawn of Justice and the final Harry Potter movie. Results from Europe topped Wonder Woman and were slightly behind Thor: Ragnarok.

Brazil was the top individual market after China with $14.2 million on 1,580 screens and set a record for top opening weekend in that territory. The UK followed with $9.8 million on 1,617 screens, topping the opening weekend of Thor: Ragnarok by 4%. Mexico debuted with $9.6 million at  3,563 screens, followed by South Korea with $8.8 million and Russia with $6.5 million.

The worldwide total is $281.5 million. Justice League is underperforming at the domestic box office with a $96 million launch in North America  which increases the need for a strong international result.

Justice League carries a production budget of more than $250 million, according to several sources. The studio hopes that DCs interconnected cinematic universe of comic book heroes and villains can deliver huge audiences around the globe. Analysts believe Justice League would have to bring in a lofty sum of around $600 million from ticket sales alone and additional revenue from ancillaries like pay-TV and home entertainment in order to turn a profit. 

Gal Gadot stars as Wonder Woman along with Ben Affleck as Batman, Henry Cavill as Superman, Jason Momoa as Aquaman, Ezra Miller as the Flash, and Ray Fisher as Cyborg. Amy Adams, Amber Heard, Jeremy Irons, J.K. Simmons, and Willem Dafoe also appear.

Disney-Marvels Thor: Ragnarok finished a distant second on foreign front with $24 million in 57 markets. The third Thor movie has now taken in $490 million in four weeks of overseas release and has a worldwide total of $738.1 million, topping the lifetime totals of Captain America: Winter Soldier  at $714 million and Doctor Strange at  $678 million.

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/bo...na-1202618624/

----------


## Jaddor

Its a phase of DCEU. It will pass, I think JL is the end to the synder vision though.

A hard reboot is not necessary, it is only necessary for the X-Men movies

but it is clear that the press wants a marvel monopoly on the genre. this movie has the same type of content review as thor 3, so why did thor 3 get a big pass.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> It's his fault for overstaying his welcome and  not knowing when to leave. He could've left if he wanted to but choose to stay.  I feel horrible for what he's gone through in the midst of the tragedy but he's not going to get absolved of all blame.


Why would he leave if WB wanted him on? BvS was the third most successful DC ever. 

People really overstate how much BvS was "hated". Evidence clearly points to the contrary.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> To be fair,  Justice League kind of stopped being Snyder's vision after BvS under preformed.  Even if Snyder had remained director Warner's would still have strict oversight on the film regardless; he still would be forced to compromise his vision. After his initial cut tested poorly with Warner's executives they mandated re-shoots using the new Whedon scripted scenes(Contrary to  the PR narrative, it was Johns and Berg, not Snyder, who got Whedon to write new scenes for the reshoots to improve the film after the Snyder cut underwhelmed).


There isn't a significant source for that, though I wouldn't be surprised by the latter. After a tense battle we need Flash to fall on top WW boobs, cuz hilarious.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> People really overstate how much BvS was "hated". Evidence clearly points to the contrary.


Hated might be going too far, but it definitely didn't connect with wider audiences, especially in the US.

It made most of its domestic gross (even if just barely) on opening weekend, which is extremely unusual for big blockbusters. What that means is once people actually started seeing the movie, interest went down. It is one of only two major superhero movie that made 50% of its total domestic on opening weekend. The other is Watchmen.

Out of all the movies that had an opening weekend of more than 150 million, Batman v. Superman ranks as the lowest earner in total domestic gross.

Out of all movies that opened to at least 150 million domestically, it's one of the few that weren't able to reach a billion worldwide. The others were, Catching Fire, Spider-Man 3, and the Hunger Games. Two of those aren't that popular overseas, and the other came out ten years ago, before the international markets had expanded.

There are dozens of movies that opened lower than Batman v. Superman and went to gross more domestically. There are none that opened higher than it and grossed less.

It had the second biggest second weekend drop for a major superhero movie. The first is Ang Lee's Hulk.

It has one of the worst multipliers ever for a superhero movie. Batman & Robin, Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, and Superman III all had better multipliers.

While Batman v. Superman grossed a respectable amount, the warning signs were there that the movie that had to follow its narrative was going to take a hit.

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## RumpusMagoo

> There isn't a significant source for that, though I wouldn't be surprised by the latter. After a tense battle we need Flash to fall on top WW boobs, cuz hilarious.


I kinda thought that scene was funny, TBH.

----------


## Sunny71

Hi all,...

Couldn't resist replying.
I have been an long time lurker in this forum and 47 years old.
What's my background (comics wise).
Started with marvel comics, in the eighties loved the DC comics.
Big time x-men fan during chris claremonts period. Now mostly reading DC-Comics with the Marvel Epic releases in TPB.

Waited a long time for these movies.
Loved the start of Marvel Cinematic Universe (Iron Man, Captain america FA). Freaking LOVED the Avengers and GoTG!!
Spiderman Homecoming? Booooooring!
GOTG 2 and Thor Ragnarok? Too much humor... Some scenes were ok but to much humor for my liking!

The DCEU?
LOVED Man of Steel!! For me this is what superman should be like (action/powerlevel)! 
Liked Christopher Reeves' superman but when i saw MoS in the cinema, i freaked out!
Loved BvS: UE, liked the theatrical release. didn't like the "Martha" bit. But it didn't ruin the rest of the movie for me.
Liked WW: Loved the first time we see WW in full outfit on battlefield!!
Saw Justice League yesterday. And loved it! Was it perfect? No, but i can see where snyder was going with this "trilogy".
Flash was too "jokey"...
Loved the rest of the league. Didn't like the CGI face of Steppenwolf.
For me The best Comic book movie of the Year!!
My 13 year old daughter liked it more than Thor Ragnarok!

I can watch the DCEU movies over and over again with excitement and find new things where the MCU movies become dull after one or 2 views. My personal opinion.

Hoping for a Directors/ultimate Cut Blueray release by Snyder!


Just my humble opinion.....

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I kinda thought that scene was funny, TBH.


Miller's reaction definitely helped sooth the eye roll of that scene, in fact the actors made the Whedon-isms not stick out as bad as they could have been.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Hi all,...
> 
> Couldn't resist replying.
> I have been an long time lurker in this forum and 47 years old.
> What's my background (comics wise).
> Started with marvel comics, in the eighties loved the DC comics.
> Big time x-men fan during chris claremonts period. Now mostly reading DC-Comics with the Marvel Epic releases in TPB.
> 
> Waited a long time for these movies.
> ...


Welcome, and we’re happy to read your opinion. 
2017 was a banner year for CBMs, we received such a wild mixture from Lego Batman to Logan, to Wonder Woman and a new Spiderman (and can’t forget about GotG2), and Thor and Justice League wrapping things up.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Hated might be going too far, but it definitely didn't connect with wider audiences, especially in the US.
> 
> It made most of its domestic gross (even if just barely) on opening weekend, which is extremely unusual for big blockbusters. What that means is once people actually started seeing the movie, interest went down. It is one of only two major superhero movie that made 50% of its total domestic on opening weekend. The other is Watchmen.
> 
> Out of all the movies that had an opening weekend of more than 150 million, Batman v. Superman ranks as the lowest earner in total domestic gross.
> 
> Out of all movies that opened to at least 150 million domestically, it's one of the few that weren't able to reach a billion worldwide. The others were, Catching Fire, Spider-Man 3, and the Hunger Games. Two of those aren't that popular overseas, and the other came out ten years ago, before the international markets had expanded.
> 
> There are dozens of movies that opened lower than Batman v. Superman and went to gross more domestically. There are none that opened higher than it and grossed less.
> ...


Men lie... women lie... numbers don't lie!  A lot of factual evidence there that supports what the BvS loyalists deny.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

This hasn't aged well.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Men lie... women lie... numbers don't lie!  A lot of factual evidence there that supports what the BvS loyalists deny.


Yup.

10char

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

I saw the movie Friday night, but I want to let you know where my headspace is before I tell you what I thought about it.

I waited for Bluray before watching MoS and BvS. After MoS, I was a little shellshocked: I wasn't used to seeing this kind of Superman, and I wasn't 100% comfortable with it at first. I thought it was a well-made movie, but it just didn't feel like it was for me.

When I watched the theatrical cut of BvS, I hated it. Nothing seemed to make sense, and the whole affair just felt wrong to me. It just felt so grimdark as to be unpleasant. But then something weird happened: I couldn't get the films out of my head. I dug into various reviews and perspectives about the movies, trying to contextualize what I was thinking.

And then it hit me: being grimdark to start was the entire point. Not in a cynical, studio mandated sort of way, but in a thematic sort of way. In the comics, Superman shows up, and people simply adore him right away, and that's the depiction we so often grasp onto.

The difference here is that Superman essentially had to earn that level of admiration. While it's true that a lot of people did heap that on him at the end of MoS and in BvS, there were just as many people that were skeptical of him and his intentions. Superman martyring himself was the proof that the dissenters, including himself, needed that he was all in for protecting this planet and its people. This was also the act that propelled Batman to, frankly, not be a psycho anymore (and he _was_ a psycho in BvS: not in a bad way, though).

With that aspect clarified, I began to genuinely enjoy the two films: they still have their problems, but I've gotten to the point where I genuinely enjoy them, which is a thought I would've found unthinkable when I first watched them.

All that said, I thought _Justice League_ *rocked*. The cast was great, the action was good, and they didn't try to do too much. I didn't mind Steppenwolf as a villain, either. Yeah, he was simple, but has he ever been anything more than that in the comics? From what I've read, that's basically his character. With that said, he just needed to be a competent, formidable villain that causes the gang to come together, and he was definitely that.

The movie had its problems, which mainly stem from the studio hacking out a bunch of material from the first act, but I was more than hooked once they hit the second act. If I was actually capable of seeing movies more than once in the theatres anymore (I have three young kids, so time is a precious commodity), then I would totally go again.

In terms of the projections and so on, I wouldn't be surprised if this movie has legs. It seems like there's a bit of a disconnect between the critics and the audience, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had a very good week this week. Will it make a billion dollars? No, it won't, but I don't think it should be written off yet. We'll have a better indicator this time next week as to how it'll fare.

I do, however, really want them to put out an extended edition for home release: you can tell just from watching the trailers that there's a lot of good material that they cut, and I want it in there.

Assuming the universe keeps going, which I sincerely hope it does, I just want them to make a good Green Lantern movie. Hal's my favorite DC character, and it'll be heart-breaking if the Reynolds movie is the only big-screen representation I get.

Apologies for the uber-long post. I just wanted to make sure I covered all the bases!

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> In terms of the projections and so on, I wouldn't be surprised if this movie has legs. It seems like there's a bit of a disconnect between the critics and the audience, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had a very good week this week. Will it make a billion dollars? No, it won't, but I don't think it should be written off yet. We'll have a better indicator this time next week as to how it'll fare.


People said the same thing about BvS and Suicide  Squad and they still had poor legs at the box office with middling box office and  'B' Cinemascore,  and it;s already havjng worse drops than previously projected as evidenced by this. https://twitter.com/GiteshPandya/sta...41935558406144

Not to mention  Coco is opening next week, and Last Jedi is right around the corner....




> I do, however, really want them to put out an extended edition for home release: you can tell just from watching the trailers that there's a lot of good material that they cut, and I want it in there.


No chance.  Snyder hasn't worked on the film since April and Warners did not like his original cut. Trust me when I say that a Zack Snyder approved directors cut of Justice League is a pipe dream at this point.  Warners already  dumped a truckload of money on this movie they're not going  to spend money on another cut of a film from a director who's no longer involved with the film by time of its release.

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## HandofPrometheus

JL should've never been put together right after BvS. BvS and SS should've been a wake up call. Yes, they made money but each had hype before the reviews. After the meltdown, both damaged the hype of JL. I dont think a full reboot is necessary, just abandon all the crappy ideas Snyder brought to the table like his Lex Luthor. Aquaman will be the film to see how the DCEU will act without Snyder.

----------


## Bossace

I really need to see a trailer for Aquaman to encourage me, I like his books but now I'm worried based off the Aquaman I saw in JL the movie next year will be AquaBro

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Pretty good piece on what Warner Bros. needs to do now for the sake of the DCEU:

http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I saw the movie Friday night, but I want to let you know where my headspace is before I tell you what I thought about it.
> 
> I waited for Bluray before watching MoS and BvS. After MoS, I was a little shellshocked: I wasn't used to seeing this kind of Superman, and I wasn't 100% comfortable with it at first. I thought it was a well-made movie, but it just didn't feel like it was for me.
> 
> When I watched the theatrical cut of BvS, I hated it. Nothing seemed to make sense, and the whole affair just felt wrong to me. It just felt so grimdark as to be unpleasant. But then something weird happened: I couldn't get the films out of my head. I dug into various reviews and perspectives about the movies, trying to contextualize what I was thinking.
> 
> And then it hit me: being grimdark to start was the entire point. Not in a cynical, studio mandated sort of way, but in a thematic sort of way. In the comics, Superman shows up, and people simply adore him right away, and that's the depiction we so often grasp onto.
> 
> The difference here is that Superman essentially had to earn that level of admiration. While it's true that a lot of people did heap that on him at the end of MoS and in BvS, there were just as many people that were skeptical of him and his intentions. Superman martyring himself was the proof that the dissenters, including himself, needed that he was all in for protecting this planet and its people. This was also the act that propelled Batman to, frankly, not be a psycho anymore (and he _was_ a psycho in BvS: not in a bad way, though).
> ...


You aren't alone, buddy. You get it. Excellent post and welcome to the discussion!  :Smile:

----------


## Carabas

> This hasn't aged well.


"[Superman] has just a little teeny bit of kindness in him... He's not soft, but can imagine him being kind."

And they let this bozo do a couple of Superman movies?

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Pretty good piece on what Warner Bros. needs to do now for the sake of the DCEU:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/


Good article. Here's a similar opinion from Grace Randolph...




I don't agree 100 percent with her. ( No need to recast Lex and especially Lois IMO), but she's on the right track.

----------


## manofsteel1979

...And Here's another video from Grace that actually paints a plausable scenario that has JL not becoming a complete flop and disaster whilst forcing WB and DC to get a better grip on their universe. I think this is the most realistic positive outcome for JL's box office.

----------


## Agent Z

> "[Superman] has just a little teeny bit of kindness in him... He's not soft, but can imagine him being kind."
> 
> And they let this bozo do a couple of Superman movies?


Well his Superman had a lot more than a teensy bit of kindness. 

I mean, when you look at some of the so called paragon versions of the character many can come across as straight up assholes

----------


## Buried Alien

There's obviously much work to be done, but the one thing, *ABOVE ALL*, is for WB to *NOT STOP MAKING DC MOVIES*.

And by that, I also mean going back to making DC movies the way they did from 1978 to 2012 (e.g. just Batman and occasionally Superman, each isolated in their own separate worlds, with no ambitions towards the DC Universe beyond).

If the takeaway and final result of all this is that WB stops making DC movies altogether, or retreats to what they were doing from 1978 to 2012, there will be a whole host of people I won't ever forgive.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Pretty good piece on what Warner Bros. needs to do now for the sake of the DCEU:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/


I agree with pretty much everything.

It's undeniable that WB went too far, too fast in an effort to try to compete with the MCU on its current level. The idea being that the DCEU needed to be just as huge as the MCU or it wouldn't get any attention. Honestly? That's probably nonsense. People fell in love with the MCU because they got to watch it unfold and take shape. It was interesting to watch this huge juggernaut take shape.

Frankly? I think the audience would be just as interested in watching the DCEU go through a similar level of growth. They just need to make the DCEU's growth interesting and unique from the MCU's development, and people will basically get to see YET ANOTHER cinematic universe growing up before their eyes. 

I hope WB is either having similar thoughts right now or that someone high up at least reads this article.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Good article. Here's a similar opinion from Grace Randolph...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree 100 percent with her. ( No need to recast Lex and especially Lois IMO), but she's on the right track.


I thought that was quite good. I'm not as negative on Momoa as she is, and I wouldn't move forward with GCS or SS2 but I am in agreement with nearly everything else.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I agree with pretty much everything.
> 
> It's undeniable that WB went too far, too fast in an effort to try to compete with the MCU on its current level. The idea being that the DCEU needed to be just as huge as the MCU or it wouldn't get any attention. Honestly? That's probably nonsense. People fell in love with the MCU because they got to watch it unfold and take shape. It was interesting to watch this huge juggernaut take shape.
> 
> Frankly? I think the audience would be just as interested in watching the DCEU go through a similar level of growth. They just need to make the DCEU's growth interesting and unique from the MCU's development, and people will basically get to see YET ANOTHER cinematic universe growing up before their eyes. 
> 
> I hope WB is either having similar thoughts right now or that someone high up at least reads this article.


I guess we could all tweet it at Geoff Johns! lol

----------


## Johnny

Snyder had his moments, come on.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Well his Superman had a lot more than a teensy bit of kindness. 
> 
> I mean, when you look at some of the so called paragon versions of the character many can come across as straight up assholes


Well apparently it's not murder if you kill an evil alien Hitler wannabe as long as you do it with a smirk and a wink to a Happy John Williams score and instead of neck snapping a fully powered Zod  to protect a family, he depowers Zod, crushes his hand and tosses him into a bottomless pit.

And before I get the usual suspects pointing out that wasn't the original intention by Dick Donner and the deleted scenes that show a depowered Zod being led away in handcuffs, the Warner sanctioned official release of SUPERMAN 2 , it's heavily implied Supes and Lois ( and Lex sorta) depowered the zod crew and Killed them. And no one bated an eye because it was a case of the bad guys getting their commupence like a Disney movie.

And we won't discuss what went on with Lois in Superman II and Returns.Too many troubling questions that if we thought about it too much could make Supes more than a bit creepy...

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I thought that was quite good. I'm not as negative on Momoa as she is, and I wouldn't move forward with GCS or SS2 but I am in agreement with nearly everything else.


Yeah I like Momoa too. He was fun. Don't get her dislike. Oh well. I love her videos even when I don't always agree.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Well apparently it's not murder if you kill an evil alien Hitler wannabe as long as you do it with a smirk and a wink to a Happy John Williams score and instead of neck snapping a fully powered Zod  to protect a family, he depowers Zod, crushes his hand and tosses him into a bottomless pit.
> 
> And before I get the usual suspects pointing out that wasn't the original intention by Dick Donner and the deleted scenes that show a depowered Zod being led away in handcuffs, the Warner sanctioned official release of SUPERMAN 2 , it's heavily implied Supes and Lois ( and Lex sorta) depowered the zod crew and Killed them. And no one bated an eye because it was a case of the bad guys getting their commupence like a Disney movie.


I think cultural attitudes to what constitutes justice have probably also changed since the late 1970s/early 1980s.  There was no Internet at the time to conveniently gauge what the wider public opinion was, but from my own experiences and discussions with others back then, nobody seemed to really give a second thought to the idea that yes, Superman probably killed Zod in SUPERMAN II.  In fact, the first time I really saw it come up as a subject for discussion was during comparisons to DCEU Superman's killing of Zod in MAN OF STEEL.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Good article. Here's a similar opinion from Grace Randolph...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree 100 percent with her. ( No need to recast Lex and especially Lois IMO), but she's on the right track.


She made some good points but her downplaying the success of Homecoming and using that as example of a negative of a total reboot is borderline imbecilic.   Homecoming was a unabashed success that gave the franchise a much needed shot in the arm after  the hole Sony dug the franchise in. It may not have made a much as the Riami movies but it  out-grossed the first two  reboot films and that is inarguably a success. If anything she should've used the first  Amazing  Spider-Man film as an example of  the negative side of rebooting not Homecoming.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Doesn't also help that the likes of RT are also propping articles that JL is "too intense for kids". Like seriously.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I thought that was quite good. I'm not as negative on Momoa as she is, and I wouldn't move forward with GCS or SS2 but I am in agreement with nearly everything else.


I'm not negative on Mamoa at all.  Those underwater scenes were amazing.  SS2 should really be put further down the ladder.




> ...And Here's another video from Grace that actually paints a plausable scenario that has JL not becoming a complete flop and disaster whilst forcing WB and DC to get a better grip on their universe. I think this is the most realistic positive outcome for JL's box office.


Funny I was drew the Fantastic Beast comparison last night.




> Pretty good piece on what Warner Bros. needs to do now for the sake of the DCEU:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/


I largely agree.  They should't panic but they also should be very aware that they have been making some bad decisions.  They shouldn't be making excuses.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham



----------


## Buried Alien

> Doesn't also help that the likes of RT are also propping articles that JL is "too intense for kids". Like seriously.


That's a lot of hot nonsense.  JUSTICE LEAGUE is a closer cousin to AVENGERS than it is to WATCHMEN.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Barbatos666

> I thought that was quite good. I'm not as negative on Momoa as she is, and I wouldn't move forward with GCS or SS2 but I am in agreement with nearly everything else.


I said the same thing about GCS and SS 2 some pages ago. It would be a ridiculously short sighted move to go forward with them. If they cant get their basics right or take Batman off the ground then they have no business making films with Joker and Catwoman. Ofcourse these geniuses will probably move ahead any way.

----------


## Confuzzled

> She made some good points but her downplaying the success of Homecoming and using that as example of a negative of a total reboot is borderline imbecilic.   Homecoming was a unabashed success that gave the franchise a much needed shot in the arm after  the hole Sony dug the franchise in. It may not have made a much as the Riami movies but it  out-grossed the first two  reboot films and that is inarguably a success. If anything she should've used the first  Amazing  Spider-Man film as an example of  the negative side of rebooting not Homecoming.


Homecoming was also a reboot yet again, featured everybody's darling Iron Man/Tony Stark and was heavily marketed as Spider-Man's foray into the MCU post-Civil War. Sony also increased the marketing budget for the film especially overseas when compared to The Amazing Spider-Man films. To still finish below Raimi's entire trilogy domestic and Spider-Man 3 worldwide is kind of disappointing, even though the decent increase on The Amazing Spider-Man films makes it one of the better case scenarios. Still though, with the amount of investment made into the venture, it feels like there could have been potential to do better.

The real question is how the sequel will perform. Will it decrease like the previous two "No. 2's", especially with no Tony Stark? Or will it be an anomaly and increase?

----------


## Confuzzled

> I said the same thing about GCS and SS 2 some pages ago. It would be a ridiculously short sighted move to go forward with them. If they cant get their basics right or take Batman off the ground then they have no business making films with Joker and Catwoman. Ofcourse these geniuses will probably move ahead any way.


TBF Joker and Catwoman are way more iconic and well-known than most of the "basics". She's also right that Sirens basically prints money as everyone will buy the Halloween costumes, Barbies etc. Ayer also knows how to market the hell out of a DCEU blockbuster, and Catwoman and Poison Ivy have always been more marketable than the likes of Deadshot, El Diablo and Captain Boomerang.

Can you imagine how absolutely crazy social media will go if they get some top female pop stars like Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Christina Aguilera etc. to collaborate for a Gotham City Sirens OST and music video?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I said the same thing about GCS and SS 2 some pages ago. It would be a ridiculously short sighted move to go forward with them. If they cant get their basics right or take Batman off the ground then they have no business making films with Joker and Catwoman. Ofcourse these geniuses will probably move ahead any way.


Lol. Did you write this then?

http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/

Sounds like you two are on the same page.

----------


## Confuzzled

Batgirl may or may not be a casualty of the reception to Whedon's involvement in JL but wanting to cancel/delay Sirens too is unwise as female characters is the one place DC clearly has the advantage over the MCU. It's why Wonder Woman was so massive, it was a huge part of why Suicide Squad caught on like fire too, despite the eventual reviews.

I understand advocating more sterner control over Ayer but to want to scrap or delay the movie altogether to push more male fronted movies that Marvel, Fox and Sony will already oversaturate the market with is not really the best advice.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Homecoming was also a reboot yet again, featured everybody's darling Iron Man/Tony Stark and was heavily marketed as Spider-Man's foray into the MCU post-Civil War. Sony also increased the marketing budget for the film especially overseas when compared to The Amazing Spider-Man films. To still finish below Raimi's entire trilogy domestic and Spider-Man 3 worldwide is kind of disappointing, even though the decent increase on The Amazing Spider-Man films makes it one of the better case scenarios. Still though, with the amount of investment made into the venture, it feels like there could have been potential to do better.
> 
> The real question is how the sequel will perform. Will it decrease like the previous two "No. 2's", especially with no Tony Stark? Or will it be an anomaly and increase?


This is true,  however my point pretty much stands,  the film is more of a success than it is a disappointment since really the whole goal was to rejuvenate the franchise from the declines from the previous reboot and restore Spidey's standing in the box office(the film didn't match the box office of the Riami but they really didn't to, but it will end up as the highest grossing superhero film of 2017) .  Of course, there should've always been expectation that film would come under the Riami trilogy's entire domestic earnings given the fatigue but the film constitutes as a  step in the right direction all around.

----------


## Ascended

Eh, WB is far too reactionary. 

At the slightest provocation from audiences, they'll overcompensate. Who knows what they'll end up doing? They cant keep a direction to save their lives.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> They cant keep a direction to save their lives.


Or their wallets.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Eh, WB is far too reactionary. 
> 
> At the slightest provocation from audiences, they'll overcompensate. Who knows what they'll end up doing? They cant keep a direction to save their lives.


I agree with this thing for sure.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Doesn't also help that the likes of RT are also propping articles that JL is "too intense for kids". Like seriously.


It's crap like that that makes it abundantly clear there is indeed some sort of pro- Marvel bias among the critic  and blogger community. It's not some elaborate conspiracy by Disney or pay offs or anything of the like, but it's definitely there in some form. I mean you don't see articles saying  " Thor Ragnarok is too intense for kids" when it's pretty much on the same level as JL in terms of violence, sexual innuendo etc. I mean, you could make the argument that BvS and SS and probably the last act of MOS may be a bit too intense for kids, but JL? Seriously?  Something stinks.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> It's crap like that that makes it abundantly clear there is indeed some sort of pro- Marvel bias among the critic  and blogger community. It's not some elaborate conspiracy by Disney or pay offs or anything of the like, but it's definitely there in some form. I mean you don't see articles saying  " Thor Ragnarok is too intense for kids" when it's pretty much on the same level as JL in terms of violence, sexual innuendo etc. I mean, you could make the argument that BvS and SS and probably the last act of MOS may be a bit too intense for kids, but JL? Seriously?  Something stinks.



I  will not defend WB, they dont deserve it, but anyone that thinks the criticism is hundred per cent honest is delusional. There is a vitriolic hate for Snyder and unlike Marvel fans, who can accept a lot of deviations from the source maerial , fans of DC  are sometimes, zealots

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Eh, WB is far too reactionary. 
> 
> At the slightest provocation from audiences, they'll overcompensate. Who knows what they'll end up doing? They cant keep a direction to save their lives.


That's what troubles me. Over the weekend there was a rumor that if JL tanks they will pivot to a Wonder Woman universe or an Aquaman universe if that does well. I mean, really? Even if JL loses money, the rest of the movies in the DCEU made a lot of money. The TV series are doing well and the animated movies are consistent sellers. One underperforming movie that actually is pretty well favored by the fanbase shouldn't  decide if you scrap an entire franchise. You readjust, plan Smarter and go from there. 

You don't toss all of your eggs in a Wonder Woman basket. Do you honestly think they'll let Patty make the Wonder Woman sequel she wants to if that happens? No. It'll probably be a repeat of what happened with Snyder and MOS 2. The studio will force her to bloat the thing with other characters so they can use the movie to build a cinematic universe. Now I enjoy BvS, but it's criminal how Warners panicked amid all of the " man of Muhrdurr!" Nonsense and the fact MOS didn't do a billion,and pushed Snyder to scrap his Supes trilogy and reverse engineer it into a JL universe just so they could start making Batman movies again and to try and compete directly with Marvel.  I like Ben as Batman and I like this incarnation, but after TDKR, they should have rested Batman for at least 5 years. 

What needs to happen is WB being calm and logical. Take stock what worked , use that as a base and move forward instead of scrapping everything and either rebooting it all  to please a few vocal internet trolls ,or reverse engineer a cinematic universe from your one unquestioned success so you can get a slice of that sweet Marvel money.

 It's not fair to these characters, these actors, especially Gal and Patty Jenkins and ultimately the fans. If WB over corrects AGAIN, we'll be lucky if we end up back to nothing but Batman Movies with the occasional mediocre Superman movie every few years.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I  will not defend WB, they dont deserve it, but anyone that thinks the criticism is hundred per cent honest is delusional. There is a vitriolic hate for Snyder and unlike Marvel fans, who can accept a lot of deviations from the source maerial , fans of DC  are sometimes, zealots


I agree. WB is not blameless and to a certain extent Snyder isn't either, but the bias in the critical community against the DCEU combined with the extreme traditionalists within certain segments of fandom is pretty toxic.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> That's what troubles me. Over the weekend there was a rumor that if JL tanks they will pivot to a Wonder Woman universe or an Aquaman universe if that does well. I mean, really? Even if JL loses money, the rest of the movies in the DCEU made a lot of money. The TV series are doing well and the animated movies are consistent sellers. One underperforming movie that actually is pretty well favored by the fanbase shouldn't  decide if you scrap an entire franchise. You readjust, plan Smarter and go from there. 
> 
> You don't toss all of your eggs in a Wonder Woman basket. Do you honestly think they'll let Patty make the Wonder Woman sequel she wants to if that happens? No. It'll probably be a repeat of what happened with Snyder and MOS 2. The studio will force her to bloat the thing with other characters so they can use the movie to build a cinematic universe. Now I enjoy BvS, but it's criminal how Warners panicked amid all of the " man of Muhrdurr!" Nonsense and the fact MOS didn't do a billion,and pushed Snyder to scrap his Supes trilogy and reverse engineer it into a JL universe just so they could start making Batman movies again and to try and compete directly with Marvel.  
> 
> What needs to happen is WB being calm and logical. Take stock what worked , use that as a base and move forward instead of scrapping everything and either rebooting it all  to please a few vocal internet trolls ,or reverse engineer a cinematic universe from your one unquestioned success so you can get a slice of that sweet Marvel money.
> 
>  It's not fair to these characters, these actors, especially Gal and Patty Jenkins and ultimately the fans. If WB over corrects AGAIN, we'll be lucky if we end up back to nothing but Batman Movies with the occasional mediocre Superman movie every few years.





amazing post. Iron Man had two movies, Superman deserved a proper and solid sequel. Put him to fight Batman and kill him when he was not even well stablished was a big mistake because Warner wanted to  cacth marvel up as goal before doing good movies first

Bu, as you said,  they panicked over the MOS criticism, and if thast the case, is not just WB laziness but also he zealot fan base that didn allowed his Superman to develop properly because apparently kiling a super powerful maniac before he killed a innocen family or have actual sruggles was too much for them

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I hope that WB realizes they've already made the right decision (Propping up Johns/Roven, deemphasizing Snyder going forward), they just made it too late to prevent this.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

This is just hilariousMARVEL has gotten praise on Thor for going into a bold new direction.... Of Comedy. Yes I've seen actual reviews praise them on that. One critic even went as far as saying the jokes in Thor happened so frequently that they could get over serious moments... The shark as truly been jumped as evidenced with JL they're going to to want proper comedy now, not just quips. Ragnarok should have been a serious story instead we got a main hero played like a buffon with any seriousness played immediately as a joke, Thor's home being destroyed? Yeah let's make a joke about that... Sadly this is what critics and audiences want. This is why WB screwed with JL. 

I read one review for JL of someone whining that Batman was dark and brooding and wanted more sustained moments of him quipping... It's FREAKING Batman what the hell are they expecting??? Are people so afraid of any ounce of seriousness now? Have people suddenly forgot Nolan's Batman existed? 

God forbid any cbm have any sustained moments of seriousness now. With Deadpool 2 next year as well, if AM isn't a full fledged comedy the pitchforks will be out.

----------


## Jokerz79

Marc Andreyko annoys me here he's always been the biggest DC and DCEU fanboy at Screen Junkies and now he's saying how happy he is this film allows Superman to smile. Seriously? I've had issues with the DCEU's version of Superman but I've always been honest about it and not just going the way the wind blows and following talking points.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> This is just hilariousMARVEL has gotten praise on Thor for going into a bold new direction.... Of Comedy. Yes I've seen actual reviews praise them on that. One critic even went as far as saying the jokes in Thor happened so frequently that they could get over serious moments... The shark as truly been jumped as evidenced with JL they're going to to want proper comedy now, not just quips. Ragnarok should have been a serious story instead we got a main hero played like a buffon with any seriousness played immediately as a joke, Thor's home being destroyed? Yeah let's make a joke about that... Sadly this is what critics and audiences want. This is why WB screwed with JL. 
> 
> I read one review for JL of someone whining that Batman was dark and brooding and wanted more sustained moments of him quipping... It's FREAKING Batman what the hell are they expecting??? Are people so afraid of any ounce of seriousness now? Have people suddenly forgot Nolan's Batman existed? 
> 
> God forbid any cbm have any sustained moments of seriousness now. With Deadpool 2 next year as well, if AM isn't a full fledged comedy the pitchforks will be out.




thats  some madness right here. When i said maybe the Dark Knigh would no be  that  lucky if it came today, pople say is crazy, but, im no sure

----------


## manofsteel1979

> thats  some madness right here. When i said maybe the Dark Knigh would no be  that  lucky if it came today, pople say is crazy, but, im no sure


Yep, it's fortunate Nolan's trilogy began before this trend started. The wind is blowing in the " comic book movies should be comedies! After all that's in their name, amiright?"  The critics would have torn The Dark Knight apart for not being funny.

I've said it before, Marvel better not pull a Ragnarok on Avengers Infinity War. If they do, it may do irrevocable damage in the long run. 
I don't mind humor. I enjoyed Ragnarok on a purely entertainment level as a ride in the theater, but the more I think about it afterwards, the more I think it's insanely overrated and a terrible Thor Movie. Not for the same reason The Dark World was mediocre, but because it really had no decernable identity and did not feel in general like  a Thor Movie. I'll probably see it again on DVD, but I don't see myself rewatching it in the theater.

Me? I'm sitting in the Theater waiting for my second showing of JL to start. It's actually half full and it starts in 5 mins. Not bad.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> thats  some madness right here. When i said maybe the Dark Knigh would no be  that  lucky if it came today, pople say is crazy, but, im no sure


Ben's Batman was at least fun in parts (mostly interaction with Alfred in BvS) but Bale's Batman is the gold standard for dark and brooding, the man shut himself off for 8 years between TDK and TDKR for goodness sakes and Alfred spent the whole latter movie nagging him about it. 

I've mentioned this before but WB just allowed MARVEL to release movie and movie and flood the market, TDKR finished when MARVEL finished Phase 1 and WB didn't start their DCEU until MARVEL were into Phase 3 (I know MoS but that wasn't itended as a DCEU) thus WB allowed MARVEL a free Phase 2 essentially.

----------


## Troian

JL Made less on ow than Iron Man 1, a C-Lister hero with a washed up star as the lead, no fancy 3d, imax wasn't that popular back then too and less expensive tickets. 

As for bias against the DCEU, I mean critics treated Wonder Woman like the second coming and said Gal nailed it when i found her not that great and the movie wasn't all that. But yeah the "too intense" bits seems biased.

----------


## robreedwrites

> Doesn't also help that the likes of RT are also propping articles that JL is "too intense for kids". Like seriously.


That particular article feels so off-base in terms of its description of the film (link here if anyone else wants to read it). JL is clearly less violent and lighter in tone than BvS, not to mention the lack of emotional intensity.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yep, it's fortunate Nolan's trilogy began before this trend started. The wind is blowing in the " comic book movies should be comedies! After all that's in their name, amiright?"  The critics would have torn The Dark Knight apart for not being funny.


You mean like how they tore Logan apart for being funny?

They don't need to be funny, they just need to be good.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

These are such simple steps to take but if Warner Bros. did them the DCEU would be just fine.

This is where the DCEU should go from here:

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...79563611648001

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...79803181977603

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...79961634320386

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...80108665647104

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...80384864837632

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...80712829980672

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...80956774928384

https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...81185771311104

----------


## Buried Alien

> JL Made less on ow than Iron Man 1, a C-Lister hero with a washed up star as the lead, no fancy 3d, imax wasn't that popular back then too and less expensive tickets...


...and no expectations whatsoever.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Jokerz79

> Yep, it's fortunate Nolan's trilogy began before this trend started. The wind is blowing in the " comic book movies should be comedies! After all that's in their name, amiright?"  The critics would have torn The Dark Knight apart for not being funny.
> 
> I've said it before, Marvel better not pull a Ragnarok on Avengers Infinity War. If they do, it may do irrevocable damage in the long run. 
> I don't mind humor. I enjoyed Ragnarok on a purely entertainment level as a ride in the theater, but the more I think about it afterwards, the more I think it's insanely overrated and a terrible Thor Movie. Not for the same reason The Dark World was mediocre, but because it really had no decernable identity and did not feel in general like  a Thor Movie. I'll probably see it again on DVD, but I don't see myself rewatching it in the theater.
> 
> Me? I'm sitting in the Theater waiting for my second showing of JL to start. It's actually half full and it starts in 5 mins. Not bad.


Marvel only doing jokes is a false narrative because Civil War wasn't and Dr. Strange only had a few. As for no wanting "dark" I never found the DCEU dark I mean honestly Marvel is doing more gritty realistic stuff on Netflix I mean Punisher came out the same day as Justice League and it's way more grittier than anything in the DCEU IMO and there was Logan which didn't fail.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Critics would not have torn the Dark Knight apart for "not being a comedy". Logan just came out and was critically acclaimed and not even slightly a comedy. A film about Wolverine of all things. 

Civil War also was not a comedy. It had fun moments but the ending of that film is tragic. 

Some critics just don't like certain films because they're just not very good, objectively.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Critics would not have torn the Dark Knight apart for "not being a comedy". Logan just came out and was critically acclaimed and not even slightly a comedy. A film about Wolverine of all things. 
> 
> Civil War also was not a comedy. It had fun moments but the ending of that film is tragic. 
> 
> Some critics just don't like certain films because they're just not very good, objectively.


I agree. People tend to overlook the tragicness of Tony Stank.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Ok, so we know the chances of a Snyder Cut are slim to none (maybe someday, as a gift to fans ala the Donner Cut of II). But what about the rumored 2hr 45 min cut that was completed when Whedon was finished, before WB mandated it come in under 2 hours? This exists, right? 

I could have sworn a longer cut existed that was finished by Whedon, and THEN they had to cut it down...maybe we’ll get that version on disc? Or is the 2 hour version the only cut Whedon had? I’ve heard conflicting timelines, so I’m not sure. But I’m pretty certain there is a longer, finished, cut that was then chopped down.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Ben's Batman was at least fun in parts (mostly interaction with Alfred in BvS) but Bale's Batman is the gold standard for dark and brooding, the man shut himself off for 8 years between TDK and TDKR for goodness sakes and Alfred spent the whole latter movie nagging him about it. 
> 
> I've mentioned this before but WB just allowed MARVEL to release movie and movie and flood the market, TDKR finished when MARVEL finished Phase 1 and WB didn't start their DCEU until MARVEL were into Phase 3 (I know MoS but that wasn't itended as a DCEU) thus WB allowed MARVEL a free Phase 2 essentially.





True, but Nolans trilogy was still on going  at that point , and he waned it to be self contained, no way they would mess with his plans, unlike tthey do with current directors

----------


## Charlus

50 to 75 million lost.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain.../#4f8694787c66

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Ben's Batman was at least fun in parts (mostly interaction with Alfred in BvS) but Bale's Batman is the gold standard for dark and brooding, the man shut himself off for 8 years between TDK and TDKR for goodness sakes and Alfred spent the whole latter movie nagging him about it.





> Yep, it's fortunate Nolan's trilogy began before this trend started. The wind is blowing in the " comic book movies should be comedies! After all that's in their name, amiright?"  The critics would have torn The Dark Knight apart for not being funny.


The entire Dark Knight trilogy are well-crafted, well-acted, and well-directed movies. That's why they got good reviews. They just also happened to be dark, but more importantly, they were narratively cohesive. They nailed being a well-told story, first and foremost.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Some critics just don't like certain films because they're just not very good, objectively.


By the same token, critics will praise films that audiences don't think are very good either. 

I don't think anyone here will the defend these positively rated films and then say JL is the one with the problems. 




Now, we all know critics are just voicing their opinions when they review films and tv shows. However, some of these, you have to wonder if it's not a popularity contest that puts certain films on the "fresh" side of things.

----------


## mace11

> Not sure if they were catering to the audiences as opposed to the critics who expect every superhero film to have the same tone as Marvel.





> Critics also praised Dark Knight, Deadpool and Logan which are completely different from what is considered the usual Marvel style. Heck, even if it is a different format Legion is universally praised as one of the most original works in the superhero field (it is not strictly superheroes, but still).


Marvel mcu movies have varied tones.
Heck some marvel mcu movies are more serious and darker then most of the dceu films and some are more darker and more serious then most dc films of the before the dceu.
Most mcu movies by the way are not action comedies.
Even the action comedy mcu films have varied tones.

More Than Just The Same: MCU Head Kevin Feige Says All Marvel Movies Are 'Relatively Different'
https://moviepilot.com/p/kevin-feige...ticism/4414149

----------


## Jokerz79

> By the same token, critics will praise films that audiences don't think are very good either. 
> 
> I don't think anyone here will the defend these positively rated films and then say JL is the one with the problems. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, we all know critics are just voicing their opinions when they review films and tv shows. However, some of these, you have to wonder if it's not a popularity contest that puts certain films on the "fresh" side of things.


In reality the only true audience score in cinemascore which actually makes sure they saw the film. Justice League got a B+ but so did Baywatch.

----------


## Soubhagya

Why do fans call MCU films comedies? Civil War was a serious affair. The first phase films were all pretty serious. Winter Soldier is serious. They tell good and entertaining stories and that's it. They make good films. We may not like it but people in general love them. Critics loved Logan too. I was thinking there's a bias but truly speaking there isn't. Audiences are not loving DCEU films. Maybe because they don't consider them worth it. Justice League earned below 100 millions dollars. I would never have believed even a week ago that Thor Ragnarok managed to have a higher opening weekend. We are looking at the possibility that JL won't earn more then what WW did. Inconceivable.




> In reality the only true audience score in cinemascore which actually makes sure they saw the film. Justice League got a B+ but so did Baywatch.


And that's true. One can vote at RT without even watching the film. Cinemascore checks out the people who have really watched it. Its fairly accurate. I checked out Fantastic Beasts Cinemascore. It had an A. Its not difficult for such a film to start with 74 million and earn 800+ million dollars. Word of mouth can be gauged by Cinemascore. That's the reality.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Why do fans call MCU films comedies? Civil War was a serious affair. The first phase films were all pretty serious. Winter Soldier is serious. They tell good and entertaining stories and that's it. They make good films. We may not like it but people in general love them. Critics loved Logan too. I was thinking there's a bias but truly speaking there isn't. Audiences are not loving DCEU films. Maybe because they don't consider them worth it. Justice League earned below 100 millions dollars. I would never have believed even a week ago that Thor Ragnarok managed to have a higher opening weekend. We are looking at the possibility that JL won't earn more then what WW did. Inconceivable.


I feel the DCEU has gotten just scores every time. Man of Steel was a good movie and well made but was a divisive interpretation of Superman so it got a 55% almost right down the middle which sound sight right given the reaction to that Superman. The other 3 to score low were all heavily changed and edited by WB and it showed and they suffered.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

You know what's interesting to me? The DCEU only happened because of one man... Chris Nolan. 

He pushed out a MoS movie by heavily pitching it to WB. He had a main producer role and I believe story credit too. But obviously he couldn't film it because TDKR, so in comes Zack. 2013, MoS comes out and does alright at the BO. 

A sequel is green light. Goyer pens script again, Zack wants to use Batman as an antagonist to go up against Superman... WB suddenly see the potential of an extended universe... 

Film gets delayed a year... Script get's re-written, and the film is not a direct MoS sequel now but a prequel to the set up of the DCEU. 


So had Nolan not pushed MoS, essentially no DCEU. No WW film, no AM film next year. SR flopped, GL flopped bet ya anything if MoS didn't happen we'll be getting a rebooted Batman solo now, marking the first DC film since 2012...

Love the DCEU, hate the DCEU we should be thankful we have *a* DCEU.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I feel the DCEU has gotten just scores every time. Man of Steel was a good movie and well made but was a divisive interpretation of Superman so it got a 55% almost right down the middle which sound sight right given the reaction to that Superman. The other 3 to score low were all heavily changed and edited by WB and it showed and they suffered.


I agree with you here. Man of Steel is definitely a good movie. A divisive take shows the score. Split almost right at the middle. Other films were cut up. I can understand BvS. A 3 hour R-rated film is not a good idea. I think their mistake was in deciding what to keep and what to cut. More Clark investigations and less Bruce's goofy dreams. These scenes are a distraction to the story even if they are cool. People would find it dumb. For, SS editing problems are always brought up. JL. I am not so sure. Yes its rotten and at 40. But its not mid 25. Who knows possibly the full cut would have been lower. It could be higher too. But i am not sure. Personally, i loved this film and feel that longer time would have hurt. You don't need to see Iris West. She has no role in the story. It makes sense for an extended cut for fans. Not for a widely released film. Thus, i am not sure about it.

The only films without heavy editing are Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. Man of Steel was still at 55%. Owing partly to the divisive take. But it still has an A- Cinemascore. For an origin film, earning 668 million dollars worldwide is not so easy. So, point is proven. Though i still doubt JL. Weren't there reports of an earlier cut deemed unwatchable?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I agree with you here. Man of Steel is definitely a good movie. A divisive take shows the score. Split almost right at the middle. Other films were cut up. I can understand BvS. A 3 hour R-rated film is not a good idea. I think their mistake was in deciding what to keep and what to cut. More Clark investigations and less Bruce's goofy dreams. These scenes are a distraction to the story even if they are cool. People would find it dumb. For, SS editing problems are always brought up. JL. I am not so sure. Yes its rotten and at 40. But its not mid 25. Who knows possibly the full cut would have been lower. It could be higher too. But i am not sure. Personally, i loved this film and feel that longer time would have hurt. You don't need to see Iris West. She has no role in the story. It makes sense for an extended cut for fans. Not for a widely released film. Thus, i am not sure about it.
> 
> The only films without heavy editing are Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. Man of Steel was still at 55%. Owing partly to the divisive take. But it still has an A- Cinemascore. For an origin film, earning 668 million dollars worldwide is not so easy. So, point is proven. Though i still doubt JL. *Weren't there reports of an earlier cut deemed unwatchable?*


No just unconfirmed rumours without a legitimate or reliable source. Also BvS was never gonna be R even with 3hrs ZS said once they decided (ie just WB) that the 3 hr cut was gonna go on home video he decided may as well include the stuff MPAA made them cut.

----------


## Carabas

> These are such simple steps to take but if Warner Bros. did them the DCEU would be just fine.
> 
> This is where the DCEU should go from here:
> 
> https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...79563611648001
> 
> https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...79803181977603
> 
> https://twitter.com/HeroicUniverse/s...79961634320386
> ...


Ironically, those links go nowhere.

----------


## mace11

> She made some good points but her downplaying the success of Homecoming and using that as example of a negative of a total reboot is borderline imbecilic.   Homecoming was a unabashed success that gave the franchise a much needed shot in the arm after  the hole Sony dug the franchise in. It may not have made a much as the Riami movies but it  out-grossed the first two  reboot films and that is inarguably a success. If anything she should've used the first  Amazing  Spider-Man film as an example of  the negative side of rebooting not Homecoming.


Spiderman homecoming worldwide made more money then most raimi spiderman films however.

----------


## byrd156

> You know what's interesting to me? The DCEU only happened because of one man... Chris Nolan. 
> 
> He pushed out a MoS movie by heavily pitching it to WB. He had a main producer role and I believe story credit too. But obviously he couldn't film it because TDKR, so in comes Zack. 2013, MoS comes out and does alright at the BO. 
> 
> A sequel is green light. Goyer pens script again, Zack wants to use Batman as an antagonist to go up against Superman... WB suddenly see the potential of an extended universe... 
> 
> Film gets delayed a year... Script get's re-written, and the film is not a direct MoS sequel now but a prequel to the set up of the DCEU. 
> 
> 
> ...


I would rather not have a DCEU than the one we currently have. It does nothing but hurt the DC brand and only a select group of fans enjoy the universe so far. The DCEU should bring in a wider audience into DC not divide the ones they already have. The DCEU really feels like the New 52 brought to life. A bunch of potential ideas announced with no one knowing if they will happen, divisive fanbase, unnecessary changes that get retconned anyway, etc.

----------


## byrd156

> Spiderman homecoming worldwide made more money then most raimi spiderman films however.


You also have to take into account how much the movie-viewing audience/box office has changed since then in only a few short years which is still crazy to me.

----------


## TitanMax

I like how people keep trying to claim there's some bias against DC films especially given success of Wonder Woman but the simple fact here is DC has not been making good films for the most part, and not some conspiracy when they don't crack 90% on RT.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> and only a select group of fans enjoy the universe so far.


No. Your estimations are off.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> It's crap like that that makes it abundantly clear there is indeed some sort of pro- Marvel bias among the critic  and blogger community. It's not some elaborate conspiracy by Disney or pay offs or anything of the like, but it's definitely there in some form. I mean you don't see articles saying  " Thor Ragnarok is too intense for kids" when it's pretty much on the same level as JL in terms of violence, sexual innuendo etc. I mean, you could make the argument that BvS and SS and probably the last act of MOS may be a bit too intense for kids, but JL? Seriously?  Something stinks.


The article is some assessing how family friendly movies are, and it isn't just about Justice League.




> As far as your kids go, I’d say it’s OK for viewers around 11 or 12 and older.


There's barely a difference from the minimum age they suggested for Ragnarok when it came out.




> While Blanchett is clearly having a blast camping and vamping it up as Hela, she also might be frightening to littler kids. And there’s a scattering of profanity throughout. I brought my 8-year-old son to a screening and he loved it, but there was one image involving Thor’s eye that he found disturbing. But if your kids are familiar with these characters and this world, they’ll have a great time. Fine for viewers around 9 or 10 and older.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I like how people keep trying to claim there's some bias against DC films especially given success of Wonder Woman but the simple fact here is DC has not been making good films for the most part, and not some conspiracy when they don't crack 90% on RT.


This straw man is getting old. Critical opinions have a variety of dimensions that audiences/fans are free to deconstruct. The personal taste of the critic, the preconceived notions the critic might have about a character or the appropriate tone for the genre, the trend and atmosphere surrounding the genre, the weight put on certain flaws or strengths of a film, etc. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor does its reception.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> I would rather not have a DCEU than the one we currently have. It does nothing but hurt the DC brand and only a select group of fans enjoy the universe so far. The DCEU should bring in a wider audience into DC not divide the ones they already have. The DCEU really feels like the New 52 brought to life. A bunch of potential ideas announced with no one knowing if they will happen, divisive fanbase, unnecessary changes that get retconned anyway, etc.


Here, here. DCEU is just waisted potential. I could've lived without the current DCEU movies.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Ironically, those links go nowhere.


lol. Weird, but here is the main article anyway:

http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

According to Mark Hughes, who has been as plugged in as anyone to the DCEU and a fan, the JL failure is likely going to force just Wonder Woman and Batman trilogies with an Aquaman and Shazam solo/sequels mixed in. No more Henry Cavill Superman, folks. F***!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#6d96b2044b91

----------


## Robotman

> According to Mark Hughes, who has been as plugged in as anyone to the DCEU and a fan, the JL failure is likely going to force just Wonder Woman and Batman trilogies with an Aquaman and Shazam solo/sequels mixed in. No more Henry Cavill Superman, folks. F***!
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#6d96b2044b91


Cavil is apparently under contract for one more film. i think he may show up in Shazam for a minute and thats it. they may wait a while to introduce a new Superman after that. by that time there will already be a new Batman. i dont see WB rebooting the DCEU but with Affleck and Cavill basically done i think they will use that as an "end on an era" scenario. they will try to turn the page on the DCEU and distance themselves from Snyder, Affleck, and Cavill.
Jake Gyllenhaal or whoever they get for Batman will be the new face of DC films and they will move on from there.

----------


## mace11

JUSTICE LEAGUE DISAPPOINTS - HOW TO FIX THE DCEU - Double Toasted

----------


## mace11

> I
> 
> Steppenwolf wasn't bad either. I really think people go out of their way to bash DCEU's CGI, which I can say is no better, nor any worse than the CGI in Dr. Strange, Guardians, or even Thor. Having watched Ragnarok a couple weeks ago, Hela's CGI in some scenes was atrocious as was Surtur's. But no one bats an eye with the MCU.


Most folks would disagree with this but since you mention it again and again here some recent talk about it.

Doesnt-the-Justice-Leagues-CGI-look-overblown



> Yes…Completely.
> I don't know why the Warner Brothers are repeating the same mistake again and again.
> Look at the following images from the trailer.
> Now in the background there's a needed CGI bot.
> 
> The Cyborg looks as if DC has developed a PS4 exclusive not a film. Cyborg is a character which requires CGI on a human but this is actually too much of visuals without detailing adding a photoshopped human skin.
> This feels as if its on other planet.
> 
> Zack Snyder has a great affection for CGI (See 300) which isn't so bad but when all of the scenes you shoot are in front of a Green Screen then its a problem. Sitting through the climax of BvS, I got a headache from the overblown CGI. DCEU is suffering from the overuse and also from poor in the last three films which they got wrong in this again.
> ...


https://www.quora.com/Doesnt-the-Jus...look-overblown

Why does the dceu have a big cgi problem



> Why does the dceu have a big cgi problem
> #1 Posted by Blackstar_95
>  What's the main issue here and how can they fix it in future. It seems like Marvel is miles ahead of them using cgi
> 
> #12 Posted by All-Father
> What CGI problem? I haven't seen JL yet, but the CGI in MoS, BvS, and WW were (for the most part) just fine.
> It's actually better than that of Fox (Considering how DCEU is more CGI heavy than Fox) and way above the MCU.
> 
> #16 Posted by CosmicMuffin  
> ...


https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...oblem-1910261/


Marvel mcu does have better cgi on average then dc dceu.
There tends to be less complaints about mcu cgi then dceu cgi as well.

----------


## robreedwrites

Final count for opening weekend showing on boxofficemojo.com is $93,842,239.

It's the lowest opening in the DCEU. In the MCU, it would have placed twelfth, just below Guardians of the Galaxy (not adjusting for inflation), and above Thor: The Dark World, Doctor Strange, Thor, Captain America: The First Avenger, Ant-Man, and the Incredible Hulk. It fares better though, when compared to the X-Men franchise, where only Deadpool and X-Men: The Last Stand have opened higher.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Final count for opening weekend showing on boxofficemojo.com is $93,842,239.
> 
> It's the lowest opening in the DCEU. In the MCU, it would have placed twelfth, just below Guardians of the Galaxy (not adjusting for inflation), and above Thor: The Dark World, Doctor Strange, Thor, Captain America: The First Avenger, Ant-Man, and the Incredible Hulk. It fares better though, when compared to the X-Men franchise, where only Deadpool and X-Men: The Last Stand have opened higher.


While not great, it's not the absolute emergency we may have feared. There's room for recovery with that.

----------


## godisawesome

Here's our podcast over the episode; I saw, my podcasting oar they didn't, so the bulk of it is just a non-spoiler discussion, but the last 12 minutes feature spoiler talk.
https://www.buzzsprout.com/132209/59...er-and-spoiler

----------


## robreedwrites

> While not great, it's not the absolute emergency we may have feared. There's room for recovery with that.


It's hard to view this as anything but a disaster. Justice League's opening weekend is lower than even the adjusted Monday estimate of $94,000,000. Even with a 2.5x multiplier, it's domestic gross would be $234,605,597.5, less than Thor: Ragnarok has already grossed. The X-Men movies get by on lower box office because of comparatively lower budgets. Only twice have the X-Men films been budgeted at $200m or more (X-Men: The Last Stand at $210m and X-Men: Days of Future Past at $200m, with X-Men: Apocalypse coming in third at $178m). With Justice League's budget reportedly anywhere from $250m-$300m, it's playing in a different league (no pun intended). Even ignoring the whole, this is supposed to be WB's Avengers, it may struggle to reach $800mWW when all is said and done. It needs to get a 2.87x multiplier on its global opening to cross that mark. If it just does 2.5x globally, it won't cross $700mWW.

EDIT: For comparison, here are the two DCEU films that had poor reviews and a same weekend Global release, BvS and SS (the latter of which was never released in China).

BvS' Opening Weekend (Global): $422,507,347 
BvS Total Gross (Global): $873,260,194
BvS Multiplier (Global): 2.067
Justice League projected on 2.067 multiplier: $576,366,908

SS Opening Weekend (Global): $266,982,248
BvS Total Gross (Global): $745,600,054
BvS Multiplier (Global): 2.793
Justice League projected on 2.793 multiplier: $778,806,373

Neither number is good news. I can't imagine that WB was wanting a JL film that didn't cross the $800m mark.

If Justice League somehow pulls out a miracle and plays like Wonder Woman, though, it's back on track.

WW Opening Weekend (Global): $228,251,471
WW Total Gross (Global): $821,763,408	
WW Multiplier (Global): 3.600
Justice League projected on 3.600 multiplier: $1,003,832,060.4

Ultimately, what will really matter is how WB adjusts. Will they simply act like the heroes aren't viable and reboot, or will they move on with smaller budgets and smaller expectations?

----------


## Prime

I guess BVS just left a bad taste on peoples's mouth

----------


## TitanMax

> This straw man is getting old.


What strawman? The movies aren't good, it's as simple as that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> According to Mark Hughes, who has been as plugged in as anyone to the DCEU and a fan, the JL failure is likely going to force just Wonder Woman and Batman trilogies with an Aquaman and Shazam solo/sequels mixed in. No more Henry Cavill Superman, folks. F***!
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#6d96b2044b91


I've heard as much as well.  It won't be a disaster only if this weekends's sales are above $70 million.  




> It's hard to view this as anything but a disaster. Justice League's opening weekend is lower than even the adjusted Monday estimate of $94,000,000. Even with a 2.5x multiplier, it's domestic gross would be $234,605,597.5, less than Thor: Ragnarok has already grossed. The X-Men movies get by on lower box office because of comparatively lower budgets. Only twice have the X-Men films been budgeted at $200m or more (X-Men: The Last Stand at $210m and X-Men: Days of Future Past at $200m, with X-Men: Apocalypse coming in third at $178m). With Justice League's budget reportedly anywhere from $250m-$300m, it's playing in a different league (no pun intended). Even ignoring the whole, this is supposed to be WB's Avengers, it may struggle to reach $800mWW when all is said and done. It needs to get a 2.87x multiplier on its global opening to cross that mark. If it just does 2.5x globally, it won't cross $700mWW.


There is no spin on this.  $93 million left almost no room for recovery.  Even the cast knows it.  They were promoting the moving heavily the past week and now all their posts have nothing to do with JL.  I'm glad that a few here loved BvS.  I'm pissed that its reception has probably led to a much smaller DC Cinematic Universe.  If I'm wrong I'll admit.     




> I guess BVS just left a bad taste on peoples's mouth


That is not what some on here will have you believe.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I guess BVS just left a bad taste on peoples's mouth


Uhh yeah. Welcome to March of 2016.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

The “Snyder Cut” for Justice League petition has over 65,000 signatures. 
I think those petitions are pretty worthless, but what if it gets to 100,000? Would WB look at that and make the decision to release an extended and/or “Snyder Cut?”

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The “Snyder Cut” for Justice League petition has over 65,000 signatures. 
> I think those petitions are pretty worthless, but what if it gets to 100,000? Would WB look at that and make the decision to release an extended and/or “Snyder Cut?”


90% or more of these online petitions are jokes.  100,000,000 verified signatures might get their attention.  100,000?   Yeah right.

----------


## Buried Alien

> 90% or more of these online petitions are jokes.  100,000,000 verified signatures might get their attention.  100,000?   Yeah right.


100,000 is a decent-sized metro area...nothing to sneeze at, but is there even enough footage to assemble a "Snyder Cut?"

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> The Snyder Cut for Justice League petition has over 65,000 signatures. 
> I think those petitions are pretty worthless, but what if it gets to 100,000? Would WB look at that and make the decision to release an extended and/or Snyder Cut?


It likely isn't enough for Warner Bros to put a whole different cut of the movie.

Sucker Punch sold nearly 900, 000 copies in the US in DVD and Blu-Ray sales, and that's considered a failure for the movie. 

Even if they expected a Snyder Justice League cut to do Man of Steel numbers and bring in over 110 million in home video sales, I don't think that would be enough for what on Warner's perspective that releasing such a cut would be them admitting that they made a mistake with handling the movie.

----------


## Soubhagya

> JUSTICE LEAGUE DISAPPOINTS - HOW TO FIX THE DCEU - Double Toasted


I agree about the budgets. X-Men films rarely earn more then 700 million. Most do 500-600. There is no panic. I don't think DC would try something like Flashpoint though. Its another JL. That makes no business sense.

----------


## inisideguy

I don't know why everyone freaks out. There are going to be more DC movies.  There is tons of DC stuff on tv. They have three animated movies a year.  Someone else will come up with something else.  Good lord.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Good talk but I do disagree with some of their points.  I don't think the thanksgiving weekend is going save it.  

 Justice League is a failure--I have no idea what they're smoking on when they say its not. Opening  on a mere 94 million with a 300+ million budget is definitely a failure no matter how you slice it.

----------


## inisideguy

> Good talk but I do disagree with some of their points.  I don't think the thanksgiving weekend is going save it.  
> 
>  Justice League is a failure--I have no idea what they're smoking on when they say its not. Opening  on a mere 94 million with a 300+ million budget is definitely a failure no matter how you slice it.


 Not sure it matters to be honest. Aquaman is coming out. WW2 is coming out. I think SS2 is coming out. And even if they were not coming out something else by DC would come out.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> What strawman? The movies aren't good, it's as simple as that.


It's a subjective statement and good job ignoring the rest of my post.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

It matters because Warner's is known for being reactionary which leads to them tampering with films after the response isn't  what they wanted.  And I'm not  even sure if SS2 will ever happen at this point.

----------


## inisideguy

> It matters because Warner's is known for being reactionary which leads to them tampering with films after the response isn't  what they wanted.  And I'm not  even sure if SS2 will ever happen at this point.



 Beats me. SS 1 made like 325 million domestic about as much as Homecoming and more than many many marvel movies. If they don't make another one oh well. There will be some other DC movies.

----------


## ironduke555

I'm not too concerned we are still going to get at least 1 DC movie a year and some of them will be very good.

----------


## inisideguy

> I'm not too concerned we are still going to get at least 1 DC movie a year and some of them will very good.


 Exactly this D$$k measuring contest is ridiculous. If this version of DC isn't working for WB there will be something else.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I would rather not have a DCEU than the one we currently have. It does nothing but hurt the DC brand and only a select group of fans enjoy the universe so far. The DCEU should bring in a wider audience into DC not divide the ones they already have. *The DCEU really feels like the New 52 brought to life*. A bunch of potential ideas announced with no one knowing if they will happen, divisive fanbase, unnecessary changes that get retconned anyway, etc.


Exactly. I think you hit the nail on the head with this comparison and its a shock it didn't occur to me before. One of the things that the MCU does very well is that it captures that feeling of bringing the classic Marvel of the comics to life (minus the Fantastic Four and X-Men of course, but nothing can be done about that). And yes, there are some differences, but for the most part, the MCU characters feel like the characters we grew up reading.

The only DCEU movie that has captured that feeling for me is Wonder Woman. In that movie, Gal Gadot and co. felt like she had just been ripped from the pages of a classic, old-school Wonder Woman comic. The other DCEU movies, however, feel like WB trying to make their characters over or "upgrade" them because everything they were before was "lame" or "for kids."

----------


## Clark_Kent

I think odds are still okay for a Superman solo. Cavill’s under contract for one more, and even the poor reviews of JL are enjoying him & this new (more classic) take on the character (the CGI face is getting slammed, but has nothing to do with him or JL’s interpretation of Superman). I could totally see them introducing Supergirl into it, as a sort of “backdoor pilot” to spin off into her own film if “Superman” was the last outing for Cavill. 

I may just be naive, but I don’t think Superman gets shelved just yet.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I also wonder if part of peoples’ refusal to come out for JL lies in the visual style (of Snyder’s films). Anyone who might remember my past posts will know my felings on MoS & BvS (spoiler alert: I love them), but I do have to admit the constant use of green screen for every set is beginning to look a little claustrophobic. CGI can create worlds & vistas unlike anything we’ve ever seen, but after a while you begin to grow numb to it. Sometimes you just can’t beat a good on-location shot, and when you go from the green screen sets to, say, the fishing village for Aquaman and then back to green screen, it can be a little jarring. In BvS, was there a reason they couldn’t have shot the Capitol stuff on the steps of the real Capitol? In JL, did they really need a CG Kent Farm, instead of using a real corn field? 

I adore Snyder’s trilogy (with Whedon’s help), but sometimes things can look so “perfect” as to look fake. And although these digital sets are expensive, they can sometimes make a film look cheap as well. Just compare Heroes Park to any outdoor scene in The Dark Knight. I really hate to say it, but maybe a new visual style is needed along with new creators themselves.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I also wonder if part of peoples’ refusal to come out for JL lies in the visual style (of Snyder’s films). Anyone who might remember my past posts will know my felings on MoS & BvS (spoiler alert: I love them), but I do have to admit the constant use of green screen for every set is beginning to look a little claustrophobic. CGI can create worlds & vistas unlike anything we’ve ever seen, but after a while you begin to grow numb to it. Sometimes you just can’t beat a good on-location shot, and when you go from the green screen sets to, say, the fishing village for Aquaman and then back to green screen, it can be a little jarring. In BvS, was there a reason they couldn’t have shot the Capitol stuff on the steps of the real Capitol? In JL, did they really need a CG Kent Farm, instead of using a real corn field? 
> 
> I adore Snyder’s trilogy (with Whedon’s help), but sometimes things can look so “perfect” as to look fake. And although these digital sets are expensive, they can sometimes make a film look cheap as well. Just compare Heroes Park to any outdoor scene in The Dark Knight. I really hate to say it, but maybe a new visual style is needed along with new creators themselves.


Green screen was even worse here thanks to Whedon. Also Snyder had the final act in dark, thus meaning that cg would be less obvious... But can't have darkness can we? Have to make it bright and red thus a lot of the cg became obvious. 

But anyway, I don't think cg is the problem Guardians 2 looked like a cgi slop at times.

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## Jokerz79

> Green screen was even worse here thanks to Whedon. Also Snyder had the final act in dark, thus meaning that cg would be less obvious... But can't have darkness can we? Have to make it bright and red thus a lot of the cg became obvious. 
> 
> But anyway, I don't think cg is the problem Guardians 2 looked like a cgi slop at times.


I found the CGI obvious since they dropped the first full trailer and it's never gotten better IMO.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I found the CGI obvious since they dropped the first full trailer and it's never gotten better IMO.


All the CG budget went into Henry's face!

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## Baggie_Saiyan

> I don't know why everyone freaks out. There are going to be more DC movies.  There is tons of DC stuff on tv. They have three animated movies a year.  Someone else will come up with something else.  Good lord.


Doesn't help when you have doomsday articles on the internet, like someone calculating how much loss JL would make with no concrete numbers but imaginary numbers.

----------


## Vinsanity

I do wonder if critics and fans expect too much and want everything to be amazing rather than just watching it. It seems like the knives are already out and have been for a while. That trickles down.

Not saying it is the main reason but something to wonder about.

----------


## Robotman

If Aquaman does well it may show that the public wasnt so much tired of the DCEU but more of Snyders style.

But I also have to say that Disney played this really well. They took the steam out of the Justice League hype train by releasing Thor two weeks before and then bring in their new Pixar film less than 1 week after its released.

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## Confuzzled

> lol. Weird, but here is the main article anyway:
> 
> http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/


I'm sorry but those suggestions are not all that. Green Arrow is not a "core DC" character who has to have a film over most of the rest. Green Lantern Corps is a risky (not to mention super expensive) proposition at this point, especially after the last GL cinematic outing and if it's being scripted by David Goyer, who without the Nolans has given us Blade 3, Man of Steel and partly responsible for BvS. If they push GLC as it currently is, it will be the final nail in the coffin for the franchise's cinematic future for quite some time.

Some changes _have_ to be made (like the solo Flash film should be incredibly Barry based and not _Flashpoint Paradox_). Deathstroke, Deadshot etc. should be delayed for now. But Suicide Squad 2 can _easily_ be salvaged. Just look at how Logan bounced back from a cruddy Origins movie and mediocre/mixed bag The Wolverine. Quality control is key here. Ditto for Ayer and Sirens. He has a terrific marketing sense, but his scripting definitely needs help and support. Or just keep him on as producer/consultant.

Seriously, the truth is there's no good or bad franchise or character to focus upon. Marvel has shown us that with Guardians, Anti-Man, Doctor Strange etc. Fox has done interesting stuff with Deadpool, Logan and continues the tradition with New Mutants, Gambit, Multiple Man etc. It's just the creators attached and the execution that really matters. Content wise, I feel like DC was unmatched with the amount of variety and untapped potential they had and still have, but poor creator fits and WB's tendency to be incredibly loyal to an incredibly small group despite product disappointing at the BO is why an Unsinkable Ship has a big leak.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> You know what's interesting to me? The DCEU only happened because of one man... Chris Nolan. 
> 
> He pushed out a MoS movie by heavily pitching it to WB. He had a main producer role and I believe story credit too. But obviously he couldn't film it because TDKR, so in comes Zack. 2013, MoS comes out and does alright at the BO. 
> 
> A sequel is green light. Goyer pens script again, Zack wants to use Batman as an antagonist to go up against Superman... WB suddenly see the potential of an extended universe... 
> 
> Film gets delayed a year... Script get's re-written, and the film is not a direct MoS sequel now but a prequel to the set up of the DCEU. 
> 
> 
> ...


I also remember early on in the discussion for BvS there was an effort to get Christian Bale on board​ as Batman. Imagine if he had said yes! Then Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy would have been retroactively folded into the DCEU along with MOS. 

It would have changed a lot going forward. I imagine Nolan would have taken more of an Interest in the story and script and BvS may have been a much different movie for better or worse, at least Batman's part of it all.

----------


## Confuzzled

On a related note, however you feel about his films, you can't say Snyder didn't give it his all in the way he could. Hopefully the money and love for the characters was worth it coz man, he's had a rough 4 years or so. I can't imagine how it must have felt to have your ventures that demanded so much of your effort and time to be instantly and viciously ripped to shreds again and again and again, no matter how many different permutations and combinations you tried each time, until your product suffered financially. And to lose your child and have to bury her in the midst of all that. Sheesh.

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## qwerty3w

> we should be thankful we have *a* DCEU.


WB would have launched a DC movie universe no matter what, they have planned that with Superman Returns, Justice League: Mortal and Green Lantern, after the success of MCU all it takes was a truly successful DC movie. Then they want to chase Marvel, they lost their patience and use Man of Steel, a movie with mixed to bad critical responses and lukewarm boxoffice as the base of their movie universe.

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## Soubhagya

> WB would have launched a DC movie universe no matter what, they have planned that with Superman Returns, Justice League: Mortal and Green Lantern, all it takes was a truly successful DC movie. Then they want to chase Marvel, they lost their patience and use Man of Steel, a movie with mixed to bad critical responses and lukewarm boxoffice as a base of their movie universe.


Lukewarm. Is 668 million worldwide bad? I just want to know why people feel it underperformed. Its pretty good for an origin film. What did they expect? The first Superman film after the boring Superman Returns will earn 700 or 800 million worldwide right at the start?

Batman Begins earned 373 million dollars. Iron Man earned 589 million dollars. 668 million for an origin film is a high end performance.

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## Barbatos666

It could've made more especially since it had Nolan's name. But middling reviews did hurt it and its performance wasn't really much better than SR once adjusted for inflation, 3D and the state of the markets. Asking for it to make a billion is too much but it could've gotten over 800 million had things gone the way they wanted.

----------


## Soubhagya

See if WB expects every film especially a first film in a series to earn over 800 million they set themselves up for failure. It does not happen all the time. A lot of Marvel films at the first phase earned in 300 or 400 million range. Iron Man was the only one that over performed. Captain America and Thor did good. Incredible Hulk was a dissapointment. 

I don't mean to be impolite but i checked out the money earned in 2005 dollars to 2013. It turned out to be 466 million dollars. If someone wishes to check it out. SR earned 391 million back in 2005.

http://www.in2013dollars.com/2005-do...013?amount=391


They should have rebooted Batman in his own film. Batman can be made for a lesser budget. So, if Superman did earn less then what they wanted, Batman would have balanced it. This is how Marvel worked. Incredible Hulk was a dissapointment (263 million for a 150 million budget). But it was balanced by better performance of other films. That's an opinion. Easy to say now, but isn't it the job of WB to look at the industry and make intelligent choices.

668 million is a pretty good performance considering the mixed critical reception. Its Cinemascore was A-. That's the same score as Logan and Captain America-The First Avenger to take a few examples. Its not an A like Wonder Woman or Iron Man or Homecoming. Its definitely not the A+ of Avengers. Cinemascore gives a good idea of what audiences felt. Its the fans who think bad of MoS. Critics were divided. And audiences as a whole liked it. I have to take into account the scores. If not totally accurate it gives an indication.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> If Aquaman does well it may show that the public wasnt so much tired of the DCEU but more of Snyders style.
> 
> But I also have to say that Disney played this really well. They took the steam out of the Justice League hype train by releasing Thor two weeks before and then bring in their new Pixar film less than 1 week after its released.


WB were so pro-active before with releases and changing around BvS etc so why now? Why adamant to hit the November release? As soon as Zack stepped away they should have delayed the film, could have avoided mustache gate and everything. They had a good year they didn't need JL out this year, delaying it for the summer would have been ideal, especially since they're now gonna go 13 months w/o a DCEU film. MARVEL SONY FOX are gonna flood the market in between.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They had a good year they didn't need JL out this year, *delaying it for the summer would have been ideal*...


Would it though? If you thought November 2017 was crowded, have you seen Summer 2018? Starting with Infinity War and the Han Solo movie in May, Deadpool 2, Jurassic World 2 and The Incredibles 2 in June, Ant-Man & Wasp, Mission Impossible 6 and Hotel Transylvania 3 in July. It's not until August that there is any kind of breathing room, and there is the problem of people being burned out by superheroes temporarily by then (Black Panther in February and New Mutants in April to add to the four superhero films in summer). JL would have been the 7th superhero blockbuster releasing in a span of less than 6 months. The marketplace has become way too crowded overall, _especially_ summer.

----------


## Robotman

> WB were so pro-active before with releases and changing around BvS etc so why now? Why adamant to hit the November release? As soon as Zack stepped away they should have delayed the film, could have avoided mustache gate and everything. They had a good year they didn't need JL out this year, delaying it for the summer would have been ideal, especially since they're now gonna go 13 months w/o a DCEU film. MARVEL SONY FOX are gonna flood the market in between.


I’m sure they were hoping that the movie would be huge and increase their annual total thus saving their jobs for one more year. They could have potentially added a billion dollars to their 2017 total which I’m sure would have called for bonuses. 
Instead all of their crappy decisions could/should cost some people their jobs.

But I agree with you, Justice League really should have been delayed until possibly February. I think Thor really stole some of it thunder (pun intended). The delay would’ve given audiences time to get excited about another big superhero movie being released and it would have avoided Star Wars.
They could’ve just taken the win with Wonder Woman and had two superhero films ready for 2018.


I’m starting to feel like Captain Hindsight.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I’m sure they were hoping that the movie would be huge and increase their annual total thus saving their jobs for one more year. They could have potentially added a billion dollars to their 2017 total which I’m sure would have called for bonuses. 
> Instead all of their crappy decisions could/should cost some people their jobs.
> 
> But I agree with you, Justice League really should have been delayed until possibly February. I think Thor really stole some of it thunder (pun intended). The delay would’ve given audiences time to get excited about another big superhero movie being released and it would have avoided Star Wars.
> The could’ve just taken the win with Wonder Woman and had two superhero films ready for 2018.


Black Panther would have possibly hurt Justice League even more if it had come in February. The online anticipation for that movie is through the roof. Another Wonder Woman type cultural break out incoming (but this time for the MCU).

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## batnbreakfast

What bugs me is Wofgang Petersen's BvS was delayed and delayed and delayed to get it right only to arrive at Snyder's BvS. Justice League Mortal was tweaked and retweaked and abandoned. I'd rather have seen those two, maybe silly movies but of their time, than this anachronistic mess WB released a few days ago. Well, JL too was delayed and tweaked to death but not enough. Everything you watch in JL has already been done and better even by WB themselves. I can't imagine a scenario where JL Mortal or the Petersen movie would have failed harder.

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## TooFlyToFail

I think another major shortcoming of the movie, besides the story, and the villain, is that it doesn't look epic enough. Hell, Superman has no seen that makes him look majestic. BvS, regardless of liking the movie, or not, had shots of Supes that we're just "wow". Him pulling the giant ship, or saving that girl from the burning building. Him flying in MoS,  as well as him being tossed by Zod, with the reflection of Zod in his eye. 

This movie really only has one scene like that, and that was Flash knocking back Diana's sword. Would've loved to have seen Aquabro just ripping thru a horde of paradaemons BvS Warehouse style.

Steppenwolf shouldn't have been more powerful than Supes, yes, but he's been conquering powerful life-forms for millennia...He should've had supreme fighting skills, fighting experience, and reaction speed, to dance circles around Superman, and the rest of the league. It should've been a desperate to beat him back. He also should've been coordinating the paradaemons to attack certain ways to keep the league separated, too. Like keeping the Flash and maybe Supes away from the fight by ordering his army to rain hell all over Russia. Steppenwolf should've bee far more tactical, and cunning....but I guess that would've been too much characterization foir him...

You can also tell which scenes are Whedon's because of the basic camera work, in comparison to Snyder's. Every scene of dialogue between Bruce, and Alfred, for instance, is inferior in this movie compared to BvS.

This movie may be fun, but it lacks gravitas. That's also the difference between Whedon's Avengers movies, and the Russo Bros' Cap movies, as well. Yes, Whedon does the talking stuff, but he looks like a novice when compared to Sorkin, who's first scene in Social Network blows anything Whedon's done out the water.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Would it though? If you thought November 2017 was crowded, have you seen Summer 2018? Starting with Infinity War and the Han Solo movie in May, Deadpool 2, Jurassic World 2 and The Incredibles 2 in June, Ant-Man & Wasp, Mission Impossible 6 and Hotel Transylvania 3 in July. It's not until August that there is any kind of breathing room, and there is the problem of people being burned out by superheroes temporarily by then (Black Panther in February and New Mutants in April to add to the four superhero films in summer). JL would have been the 7th superhero blockbuster releasing in a span of less than 6 months. The marketplace has become way too crowded overall, _especially_ summer.


Solo didn't get delayed? And I totally forgot about Ant-man... So they're gonna have 3 films again... 

So between JL and Aquaman, MCU will release 3 more films? Jesus.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

On a side note, after watching Mudbound, Jason Mitchell is my pick for John Stewart. Period.

Garrett Hedlund is someone I could also see playing Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, or a young Hal Jordan.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I do wonder if critics and fans expect too much and want everything to be amazing rather than just watching it. It seems like the knives are already out and have been for a while. That trickles down.
> 
> Not saying it is the main reason but something to wonder about.


Critics and fans go to see MCU movies to have a good time. 
Critics and fans go to see DCEU movies to write 10 page essays on tone, emotion, visual art styles, and the meaning of dialogue.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Lukewarm. Is 668 million worldwide bad? I just want to know why people feel it underperformed. Its pretty good for an origin film. What did they expect? The first Superman film after the boring Superman Returns will earn 700 or 800 million worldwide right at the start?
> 
> Batman Begins earned 373 million dollars. Iron Man earned 589 million dollars. 668 million for an origin film is a high end performance.





> It could've made more especially since it had Nolan's name. But middling reviews did hurt it and its performance wasn't really much better than SR once adjusted for inflation, 3D and the state of the markets. Asking for it to make a billion is too much but it could've gotten over 800 million had things gone the way they wanted.


I believe MoS went up against brutal box office competition. I think there were two big movies that released within a couple weeks of MoS that really bit into it's domestic total.

Anyway, I think WB/DC and us fans need a 13 month pause. Let everything cycle through (it's getting hard finding good dates to release movies thanks to Disney's properties they've acquired over the years and are now cycling through) and then hit it hard late next year with Aquaman advertising. If it can make in the $700-$800 million WW range next year, then WB I'm sure will keep plugging through, especially if the budget wasn't extravagant (Wikipedia says it's at $160 million, which is a good thing). 

And for the love of God, if I hear WB meddled with Wan's vision, I'll probably walk away from this universe. Let Aquawan do his thing and I'm sure we'll have a hit. 

Like I've said, putting the AT&T stuff aside, there is plenty of time to re-focus this DCEU. And they can do that by taking the following steps: 

-Actually give this universe a name! If you don't like DCEU, then give us DCCU or something and stick with it. 
-GIVE US A SLATE AND STICK WITH IT!!! I can't stress this enough. No, it doesn't have to be interrelated and building up, but a slate would go a long way with the fans right now. Pick a slate, announce it, and tell us you're sticking with it. 
-Don't reboot; re-tool and refocus.

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## Punisher007

> Critics and fans go to see MCU movies to have a good time. 
> Critics and fans go to see DCEU movies to write 10 page essays on tone, emotion, visual art styles, and the meaning of dialogue.


That's because the DCEU films seem to scream "take us seriously, look at how deep and profound we are."  Well if you're going to do that, then people will judge you accordingly.

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## TitanMax

> Critics and fans go to see MCU movies to have a good time. 
> Critics and fans go to see DCEU movies to write 10 page essays on tone, emotion, visual art styles, and the meaning of dialogue.


And those essays are either made by people desperately trying to claim the films weren't as bad as everyone else thought, or they're detailing how the films failed at those.

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## Carabas

> That's because the DCEU films seem to scream "take us seriously, look at how deep and profound we are."  Well if you're going to do that, then people will judge you accordingly.


“And any man who must say 'I am king' is no true king at all.”

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## SuperiorIronman

> Critics and fans go to see MCU movies to have a good time. 
> Critics and fans go to see DCEU movies to write 10 page essays on tone, emotion, visual art styles, and the meaning of dialogue.


Not many Marvel movies take themselves seriously enough to warrant essays on the visual arts. DCEU movies have pretensions enough that they warrant that kind of scrutiny. We ask and question the Superman/Jesus symbology, the topic of gods and devils and a mans dubious spiritiual beliefs in them. However in the MCU nobody questions Ego the living planet and that is because it's simply part of the adventure. A Marvel movie doesn't normally take itself seriously enough that one has to stop and think about it. Ego is a planet with a face, a supersoldier runs around dressed like the American flag, and a nice guy becomes a rage monster. 

Marvel asks you to just go with it.
DC asks you to think about things they spray painted on a wall the protagonist can't see as it relates to a main characters conflict. (this is a thing seriously in BVS)

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## Agent Z

> Not many Marvel movies take themselves seriously enough to warrant essays on the visual arts. DCEU movies have pretensions enough that they warrant that kind of scrutiny. We ask and question the Superman/Jesus symbology, the topic of gods and devils and a mans dubious spiritiual beliefs in them. However in the MCU nobody questions Ego the living planet and that is because it's simply part of the adventure. A Marvel movie doesn't normally take itself seriously enough that one has to stop and think about it. Ego is a planet with a face, a supersoldier runs around dressed like the American flag, and a nice guy becomes a rage monster. 
> 
> Marvel asks you to just go with it.
> *DC asks you to think about things they spray painted on a wall the protagonist can't see as it relates to a main characters conflict. (this is a thing seriously in BVS)*


What are you talking about?

----------


## Confuzzled

> “And any man who must say 'I am king' is no true king at all.”


It worked more than fine for the Nolan trilogy. The breakout success of those films and the flops of campy shizz like Green Lantern and Jonah Hex was what made WB pick the serious tone in the first place, in addition to standing apart from the MCU films. Wonder Woman too was shrewdly marketed as the feminist superhero movie and cultural revolution everyone was waiting for, and it took itself more seriously than the MCU films too.

When DC films are engaging and connect with critics, they will reward them like no other comic book film (Logan being one exception) and place them on high pedestals of cultural impact. When they don't, they will mercilessly rip them apart. So it's always a dance of the extremes with this brand in particular.

----------


## qwerty3w

> Cinemascore gives a good idea of what audiences felt. Its the fans who think bad of MoS. Critics were divided. And audiences as a whole liked it. I have to take into account the scores. If not totally accurate it gives an indication.


I think second week drop is a better indicator. MOS had a 65 percent drop as a movie that was not supposed to be front loaded, it lost its top position to Monster University and World War Z. Surely it was facing some competition, but Monster University was not targeted at the same demographic, WWZ was not that big of a movie, and as the start of a billions dollars franchise that's going to compete against MCU for years, dropping to 3rd in the second week most likely doesn't feel right for WB. Afterwards we got a sequel without much Superman in it.

A- could as well be X-men Apocalypse or Batman Forever. My impression is MOS's appeal to ordinary audience was mostly its dumb fun aspect --- the CGI heavy battle scenes. But you can't merely rely on that for a Superhero movie universe. So WB tried to strengthen the story, they hired Terrio, it ended up worse than before for ordinary audience.

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## SuperiorIronman

> What are you talking about?


In BVS there is a phrase spray painted onto a wall (more or less "who watches the Watchmen?") as a shot pans across a scene of a room. It's out of sight of our characters but is visible to the audience meant for one to see, read, and think about in how it relates to the narrative. It could very well be in reference to Zach Snyder having directed Watchmen but it being in latin, Batman's lack of oversight, Superman investigating Batman, Lois Lane on her search for the origins of a bullet, Lex discovering Meta humans and so forth presents a question to the audience regarding oversight or "who watches _____". Even if that was not the case, and it really was just some dumb reference to Snyder's own DC work, it also comes off presented in a way that one can see it as saying more than it actually is.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> It worked more than fine for the Nolan trilogy. The breakout success of those films and the flops of campy shizz like Green Lantern and Jonah Hex was what made WB pick the serious tone in the first place, in addition to standing apart from the MCU films. Wonder Woman too was shrewdly marketed as the feminist superhero movie and cultural revolution everyone was waiting for, and it took itself more seriously than the MCU films too.
> 
> When DC films are engaging and connect with critics, they will reward them like no other comic book film (Logan being one exception) and place them on high pedestals of cultural impact. When they don't, they will mercilessly rip them apart. So it's always a dance of the extremes with this brand in particular.


Yeah, its a pretty stupid thing to say what works for Batman tonally works for every DC character (still kinda liking MOS though). Probably something someone who never read comics would say. I'll give Marvel this... for me it works that their movies have different tones even if its the same character.

----------


## Carabas

> It worked more than fine for the Nolan trilogy. The breakout success of those films and the flops of campy shizz like Green Lantern and Jonah Hex was what made WB pick the serious tone in the first place, in addition to standing apart from the MCU films. Wonder Woman too was shrewdly marketed as the feminist superhero movie and cultural revolution everyone was waiting for, and it took itself more seriously than the MCU films too.
> 
> When DC films are engaging and connect with critics, they will reward them like no other comic book film (Logan being one exception) and place them on high pedestals of cultural impact. When they don't, they will mercilessly rip them apart. So it's always a dance of the extremes with this brand in particular.


Unfortunatlely they hired a director who wouldn't know serious or subtle if he sat on it, but excels at wild, unintentional camp.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Unfortunatlely they hired a director who wouldn't know serious or subtle if he sat on it, but excels at wild, unintentional camp.


Do you mean Whedon or Snyder?

----------


## Carabas

> In BVS there is a phrase spray painted onto a wall (more or less "who watches the Watchmen?") as a shot pans across a scene of a room. It's out of sight of our characters but is visible to the audience meant for one to see, read, and think about in how it relates to the narrative. It could very well be in reference to Zach Snyder having directed Watchmen but it being in latin, Batman's lack of oversight, Superman investigating Batman, Lois Lane on her search for the origins of a bullet, Lex discovering Meta humans and so forth presents a question to the audience regarding oversight or "who watches _____". Even if that was not the case, and it really was just some dumb reference to Snyder's own DC work, it also comes off presented in a way that one can see it as saying more than it actually is.


Yeah, I'm thinking it's just a shout-out to Watchmen, not really relating to Dawn Of Justice at all.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> On a related note, however you feel about his films, you can't say Snyder didn't give it his all in the way he could.


No one is denying the effort.  It is the execution and the results.




> But I agree with you, Justice League really should have been delayed until possibly February. I think Thor really stole some of it thunder (pun intended). The delay would’ve given audiences time to get excited about another big superhero movie being released and it would have avoided Star Wars.
> They could’ve just taken the win with Wonder Woman and had two superhero films ready for 2018.


I don't think WB expected Thor Ragnaok to be as well received as it was based on the past two incarnations.  WB also needs to improve their writing stable for these DC films.  It is odd because WB owns HBO and basically every HBO show is being written better than these DC movies.




> “And any man who must say 'I am king' is no true king at all.”


That is great way to sum up the first two parts of the trilogy.

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## batnbreakfast

> I don't think WB expected Thor Ragnaok to be as well received as it was based on the past two incarnations.  WB also needs to improve their writing stable for these DC films.  It is odd because WB owns HBO and basically every HBO show is being written better than these DC movies.


Amen. They did such a great job with the casting of all those actors and their chemistry together. Afterwards it looks like they were on autopilot or lost interest at some point.

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## Carabas

> Do you mean Whedon or Snyder?


Snyder.
Whenever Whedon goes campy, it's on purpose. And he does serious very well.

----------


## Agent Z

> Snyder.
> Whenever Whedon goes campy, it's on purpose. And he does serious very well.


That's not been the case for me over the years.

----------


## Jokerz79

Wrong Thread.

----------


## Clark_Kent

So did Whedon have a 2hr 45 min cut of the film before WB mandated the 2hr limit? Or did the mandate come before Whedon was finished working on it?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Not many Marvel movies take themselves seriously enough to warrant essays on the visual arts. DCEU movies have pretensions enough that they warrant that kind of scrutiny. We ask and question the Superman/Jesus symbology, the topic of gods and devils and a mans dubious spiritiual beliefs in them. However in the MCU nobody questions Ego the living planet and that is because it's simply part of the adventure. A Marvel movie doesn't normally take itself seriously enough that one has to stop and think about it. Ego is a planet with a face, a supersoldier runs around dressed like the American flag, and a nice guy becomes a rage monster. 
> 
> Marvel asks you to just go with it.
> DC asks you to think about things they spray painted on a wall the protagonist can't see as it relates to a main characters conflict. (this is a thing seriously in BVS)


That was one of the most frustrating things about Thor, especially with Hulk/Banner, any moment of serious character study was immediately followed up by a joke or something, totally ruined what would have been a great scene(s). Just seems movie by movie MARVEL are getting more in that fun time comedy shell, certain films they can get away with it but the subject matter of Ragnarok warranted more respect than they gave. 

Moments in JL where the humour felt off as you can easily tell Whedon shot some end scenes, after the super seriousness of Superman's resurrection we do need the scene to end with Batman quipping.

----------


## Clark_Kent

One thing that I thought was a very nice touch happened right at the end, with a certain shirt rip. And it wasn’t just the action itself, it was how the scene was colored! It was sunny & broad daylight out, without a hint of gray to hide that beautiful blue sky. 

Some will say this was Whedon, but it wasn’t - Cavill has no CG altering of his face in that scene, and Whedon left the filters on for the rest of the movie when he could have removed them, so I believe this was all Snyder. But it starts with the JL standing on the hillside, triumphant, with the rising sun to greet them. And it ends with a sunny, beautiful day for Superman, signifying the start of a brighter, more hopeful era. 

Now let’s just hope we get to see it...

Not counting Aquaman (because it’s already been filmed), I think it’s obvious that we’ll see WW 2 and some version of Reeves’ Batman as locks for films going forward. But I still think Superman fans deserve one more solo to close out Cavill’s story. We’ve seen his birth, his death, and his rebirth - we need one more film to show us this world post-Return, and there’s also the hanging thread of the ring.  Let this Superman get the happy ending we’ve never seen on film before - the Super Wedding. Lois & Clark can ride (fly) off into the sunset, and get the ending that both actors deserve for their characters.

----------


## maxmcco

Man I love David Sandberg

'Shazam' Director Has Perfect Response to DCEU Cancellation Claims
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/21/s...berg-response/

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> So did Whedon have a 2hr 45 min cut of the film before WB mandated the 2hr limit? Or did the mandate come before Whedon was finished working on it?


Apparently the mandate came sometime in September or October, given the history with BvS safe to assume it came a month before release so that timeframe does make sense.

Like with BvS they have to get the film ready for première and screenings etc so editing time is looking more like 2-3weeks than a full month.

Opening Credits, there were 3-4 credited editors... That was a troublesome sign...

----------


## byrd156

> No. Your estimations are off.


Estimates? I didn't do any math problems to come to this conclusion, when I say select group I don't mean like 6 people. I know that thousands of people enjoy these movies but that doesn't mean anything when a vast group of people don't like, care, or enjoy these movies. You can argue until the cows come home about so many people loving these movies but the DCEU has been flailing since its inception. Sure it hasn't been a financial failure yet but there is no denying that these movies haven't been making anywhere near the amount they should. The first movie to feature not only Batman and Superman but Wonder Woman as well didn't even make it into the top 10 of superhero movies box-office wise.

If the DCEU was doing as good as people like you say then why is there constant debate about these movies. JL was the first (other than WW) where I have heard more good than bad things about the movie from word of mouth and critically. I want DC to succeed because I love DC. But they really need to fix the direction of the DCEU because its mostly just bad press and more people won't care about the next movie and so on. Hell 3 of my friends refuse to see JL in theaters (we are film students) or any other DC movies until they start doing better.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Estimates? I didn't do any math problems to come to this conclusion, when I say select group I don't mean like 6 people. I know that thousands of people enjoy these movies but that doesn't mean anything when a vast group of people don't like, care, or enjoy these movies. You can argue until the cows come home about so many people loving these movies but the DCEU has been flailing since its inception. Sure it hasn't been a financial failure yet but there is no denying that these movies haven't been making anywhere near the amount they should. The first movie to feature not only Batman and Superman but Wonder Woman as well didn't even make it into the top 10 of superhero movies box-office wise.
> 
> If the DCEU was doing as good as people like you say then why is there constant debate about these movies. JL was the first (other than WW) where I have heard more good than bad things about the movie from word of mouth and critically. I want DC to succeed because I love DC. But they really need to fix the direction of the DCEU because its mostly just bad press and more people won't care about the next movie and so on. Hell 3 of my friends refuse to see JL in theaters (we are film students) or any other DC movies until they start doing better.


How would you know they're doing better (or not) if you don't see them?  :Confused: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Carabas

> Apparently the mandate came sometime in September or October, given the history with BvS safe to assume it came a month before release so that timeframe does make sense.
> 
> Like with BvS they have to get the film ready for première and screenings etc so editing time is looking more like 2-3weeks than a full month.
> 
> Opening Credits, there were 3-4 credited editors... That was a troublesome sign...


Yeah, okay... This could have been a Alfred Hitchcock/Stanley Kubrick collaboration, and it still would have sucked under those conditions.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Estimates? I didn't do any math problems to come to this conclusion, when I say select group I don't mean like 6 people. I know that thousands of people enjoy these movies but that doesn't mean anything when a vast group of people don't like, care, or enjoy these movies. You can argue until the cows come home about so many people loving these movies but the DCEU has been flailing since its inception. Sure it hasn't been a financial failure yet but there is no denying that these movies haven't been making anywhere near the amount they should. The first movie to feature not only Batman and Superman but Wonder Woman as well didn't even make it into the top 10 of superhero movies box-office wise.
> 
> If the DCEU was doing as good as people like you say then why is there constant debate about these movies. JL was the first (other than WW) where I have heard more good than bad things about the movie from word of mouth and critically. I want DC to succeed because I love DC. But they really need to fix the direction of the DCEU because its mostly just bad press and more people won't care about the next movie and so on. Hell 3 of my friends refuse to see JL in theaters (we are film students) or any other DC movies until they start doing better.


"A select group" is simply an underestimation. It's obviously not unanimously popular, nobody has said that so dispelling that strawman is unnecessary.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Apparently the mandate came sometime in September or October, given the history with BvS safe to assume it came a month before release so that timeframe does make sense.
> 
> Like with BvS they have to get the film ready for première and screenings etc so editing time is looking more like 2-3weeks than a full month.
> 
> Opening Credits, there were 3-4 credited editors... That was a troublesome sign...


So in other words, this is the exact same scenario as what they did to BvS.

God! They really DIDN'T learn a thing from that one!

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> So in other words, this is the exact same scenario as what they did to BvS.
> 
> God! They really DIDN'T learn a thing from that one!


Yeah, looks like it. But at least this time the finished product was coherent. That's a step forward. lol.

----------


## Styles

Aquaman Wont Feature Underwater Dialogue Like in Justice League

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Aquaman Won’t Feature Underwater Dialogue Like in Justice League


Makes sense. Unless ALL Atlanteans can do what Mera does, air bubbles can't possibly be how Atlanteans talk to each other. 

I really wonder how Wan's going to pull that off? Do the Atlanteans just talk underwater and somehow hear and understand each other in a way humans simply can't? Is telepathy common among Atlanteans? Do they use some kind of sign language?

----------


## ShadowSJG

How is the box office? Good or bad?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Makes sense. Unless ALL Atlanteans can do what Mera does, air bubbles can't possibly be how Atlanteans talk to each other. 
> 
> I really wonder how Wan's going to pull that off? Do the Atlanteans just talk underwater and somehow hear and understand each other in a way humans simply can't? Is telepathy common among Atlanteans? Do they use some kind of sign language?


They're definitely just going to talk. The nerd logic being stronger vocal chords maybe.

----------


## Jabare

This has basically been the reception of the Justice League film

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Apparently the mandate came sometime in September or October, given the history with BvS safe to assume it came a month before release so that timeframe does make sense.
> 
> Like with BvS they have to get the film ready for première and screenings etc so editing time is looking more like 2-3weeks than a full month.
> 
> Opening Credits, there were 3-4 credited editors... That was a troublesome sign...


I think our odds of the longer cut are decent as long as it was finished before the mandate came down. Especially with underperforming at the BO, an extended cut would be a good move for them as it brings in the people who want to see more from this film.

----------


## Jabare

reliable source on all the Justice League cuts

----------


## byrd156

> How would you know they're doing better (or not) if you don't see them? 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I said that to them and have been telling them to watch JL because I believe JL is a step in the right direction. But so far the DCEU has been enough of a turn off to make them not want to see these movies in the theater. Vote with your wallet, thats the only way to get your message across. 

You know if its doing better or not by trusting others opinions that you respect or by waiting to see it somewhere else rather than spending your own money on a product you didn't like.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I said that to them and have been telling them to watch JL because I believe JL is a step in the right direction. But so far the DCEU has been enough of a turn off to make them not want to see these movies in the theater. Vote with your wallet, thats the only way to get your message across. 
> 
> You know if its doing better or not by trusting others opinions that you respect or by waiting to see it somewhere else rather than spending your own money on a product you didn't like.


There are many people whom I trust, but whose tastes/opinions are very different from mine.  Relying on their judgment for these matters isn't of much help.  I swear: if I went by the opinions of people I otherwise trust with many other things, I probably would never have encountered half the stuff I've come to cherish...just because I can't rely on others (no matter how trustworthy) to shape my tastes for me.  

As to your other point:  "voting with your wallet" can backfire.  Your intent might be that the lesson learned will be "make better movies," but the ACTUAL lesson learned could just as easily be, "this isn't worth it; we give up."

I don't see that as a winning proposition at all.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> reliable source on all the Justice League cuts


Who is this person and what makes him a reliable source? 
Everything he said was info. on the Internet, he just summarized it in chronological order. So I can’t determine if he collected that info. and repackaged it, or if this is a solid source and he is confirming the rumors.

----------


## WontonGirl

Interesting article about The Justice League movie and Warner Brothers. 

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/172...justice-league

----------


## byrd156

> There are many people whom I trust, but whose tastes/opinions are very different from mine.  Relying on their judgment for these matters isn't of much help.  I swear: if I went by the opinions of people I otherwise trust with many other things, I probably would never have encountered half the stuff I've come to cherish...just because I can't rely on others (no matter how trustworthy) to shape my tastes for me.  
> 
> As to your other point:  "voting with your wallet" can backfire.  Your intent might be that the lesson learned will be "make better movies," but the ACTUAL lesson learned could just as easily be, "this isn't worth it; we give up."
> 
> I don't see that as a winning proposition at all.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I'd rather the DCEU die right now and have WB try it again in a few years than continue with what we have.

Also this is only basing an opinion on one movie, I'm not saying live your life the way others tell you too. One big budget superhero movie isn't going to change your life. I just want better content from WB/DC because I know they can do better. The first JL movie shouldn't a resounding it was alright to good.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I'd rather the DCEU die right now and have WB try it again in a few years than continue with what we have.


If the DCEU dies, I really think we'll never get another stab a live-action JUSTICE LEAGUE movie within the lifetime of anyone on these forums.  Movie studios are a cowardly and superstitious lot, after all.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Estimates? I didn't do any math problems to come to this conclusion, when I say select group I don't mean like 6 people. I know that thousands of people enjoy these movies but that doesn't mean anything when a vast group of people don't like, care, or enjoy these movies. You can argue until the cows come home about so many people loving these movies but the DCEU has been flailing since its inception. Sure it hasn't been a financial failure yet but there is no denying that these movies haven't been making anywhere near the amount they should. The first movie to feature not only Batman and Superman but Wonder Woman as well didn't even make it into the top 10 of superhero movies box-office wise.
> 
> If the DCEU was doing as good as people like you say then why is there constant debate about these movies. JL was the first (other than WW) where I have heard more good than bad things about the movie from word of mouth and critically. I want DC to succeed because I love DC. But they really need to fix the direction of the DCEU because its mostly just bad press and more people won't care about the next movie and so on. Hell 3 of my friends refuse to see JL in theaters (we are film students) or any other DC movies until they start doing better.


Yeah, my personal friends are also in a similar boat.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Interesting article about The Justice League movie and Warner Brothers. 
> 
> https://www.cinemablend.com/news/172...justice-league


This drives me nuts (all of these articles from the last 48 hours about how WB will need to take a step back to analyze and possibly hold the DCEU indefinitely, etc.). 

This phase of the DCEU is done! We’ll call it phase 1. We can now move on to solo/origin films for the core JL members. WB just needs to do the following:

-Announce a slate
-State the first 5 films have been a wonderful chance to explore and experiment.
-Let the directors have their movies.
-Fire Tsujihara.

WB has been atrocious from a PR perspective and in communicating to us fans. They need a face that can debunk rumors, etc. Wait, WTH has Johns been doing this whole time?

----------


## Jabare

> Who is this person and what makes him a reliable source? 
> Everything he said was info. on the Internet, he just summarized it in chronological order. So I can’t determine if he collected that info. and repackaged it, or if this is a solid source and he is confirming the rumors.


Charlie Schneider has been around for a minute. He's a youtube from LA, a lot of what he says is repackaged but he does have sources in the industry. His track record speaks for itself especially if you check out the dates on some of his Rick and Morty and Game of Thrones videos against what he says. He's not someone that is throwing spin at you or guessing. He does his research so I'd say about 80% of what he says is just from him fact checking online, but every now and than he has some insider info. Not sure if he's friends with someone like Dan Harmon, but I check in on him now and than. He's not just throwing theories out there like ComicbookCast which is hit or miss.

He does a lot of Rick & Morty, Game of Thrones, Flash and Marvel vids. I like him because he doesn't rush things out, he gets the reliable information  and doesn't spam too much.

But about 70% of what eh says in this video you can cross check its back dup online for the most. Two things he said caught me buy surprise, but I believe it largely due to his track record and accuracy over the last 3 years.

----------


## WontonGirl

Well I think they should just back up a bit and release stand-alone films, just for a little while. I know a couple of years ago, Geoff Johns really wanted to push more characters so maybe ease back off the whole DCEU universe and just do it like the old days; grab a character, release a film.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Well I think they should just back up a bit and release stand-alone films, just for a little while. I know a couple of years ago, Geoff Johns really wanted to push more characters so maybe ease back off the whole DCEU universe and just do it like the old days; grab a character, release a film.


As a concession, can we at least have little cameos by the other characters in each other's films just to remind us that yes, there's a unified DC cinematic universe?  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This phase of the DCEU is done! We’ll call it phase 1. We can now move on to solo/origin films for the core JL members. WB just needs to do the following:
> 
> -Announce a slate
> -State the first 5 films have been a wonderful chance to explore and experiment.
> -Let the directors have their movies.
> -Fire Tsujihara.


They need to stop announcing slates that they can't keep.  That seems to be part of the problem.  They gave Snyder free reign and it backfired so you can't blame them for trying to reign in directors.  The firing of Tsujihara is probably the thing that is least likely to happen,  

It may make certain fans angry but BvS had mixed response all around and affected JL's box office greatly despite better critical reviews.  If WB ends up backing off from more DC movies because of this... that is on BvS.  The numbers don't lie.

Also it probably won't happen because DJ is one of the few proven box office draw but Black Adam and Shazam need to be pushed back as they prioritize the core JL characters and maybe GCS.

I liked JL a lot despite its flaws.  At the same time... I won't be optimistic about the DC cinematic universe again until AFTER Aquaman.  No matter what they announce because those announcements mean absolutely nothing.

----------


## Agent Z

> They need to stop announcing slates that they can't keep.  That seems to be part of the problem.  They gave Snyder free reign and it backfired so you can't blame them for trying to reign in directors.  The firing of Tsujihara is probably the thing that is least likely to happen,  
> 
> It may make certain fans angry but BvS had mixed response all around and affected JL's box office greatly despite better critical reviews.  If WB ends up backing off from more DC movies because of this... that is on BvS.  The numbers don't lie.
> 
> Also it probably won't happen because DJ is one of the few proven box office draw but Black Adam and Shazam need to be pushed back as they prioritize the core JL characters and maybe GCS.
> 
> I liked JL a lot despite its flaws.  At the same time... I won't be optimistic about the DC cinematic universe again until AFTER Aquaman.  No matter what they announce because those announcements mean absolutely nothing.


They didn't give Snyder free reign. Or any of their directors

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> They didn't give Snyder free reign. Or any of their directors


Patti Jenkins seemed to have a good amount of freedom over Wonder Woman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> They didn't give Snyder free reign. Or any of their directors


Yep. Even Patty Jenkins had to fight off studio interference in Wonder Woman. WB wanted to cut out the freaking No Man's Land scene, for God's sake! You know? Pretty much the best scene of the whole movie? The scene that pretty much singlehandedly won Wonder Woman the "inspirational" descriptor from so many reviewers? If reports are to be believed, Patty had to fight like Hell to keep that scene. I think I also heard that she had some backing from Johns. 

If WB had their way, Wonder Woman would've been substantially less awesome. Hopefully the fact that the studio didn't win that argument is a sign that Johns is using his newfound power to protect the visions of the directors from now on. We'll definitely see this for sure if Aquaman stays true to Wan's vision, because studio interference is just about the ONLY thing that could hurt that movie. The fans love Momoa. They're going to love him and Mera once they become THE power couple of comic book movies. And James Wan? The man has NEVER made a bad movie in his life!

----------


## Confuzzled

> This drives me nuts (all of these articles from the last 48 hours about how WB will need to take a step back to analyze and possibly hold the DCEU indefinitely, etc.). 
> 
> This phase of the DCEU is done! We’ll call it phase 1. We can now move on to solo/origin films for the core JL members. WB just needs to do the following:
> 
> -Announce a slate
> -State the first 5 films have been a wonderful chance to explore and experiment.
> -Let the directors have their movies.
> -Fire Tsujihara.
> 
> WB has been atrocious from a PR perspective and in communicating to us fans. They need a face that can debunk rumors, etc. Wait, WTH has Johns been doing this whole time?


Agreed wholeheartedly with all of this except "Fire Tsujihara". Dude has allowed big budget off-beat and risky blockbusters like Mad Max: Fury Road and Blade Runner 2049 that other studios wouldn't dare, has honed the James Wan horror universe that allowed for other breakouts like It, has maintained good relationships with creators like JK Rowling and Christopher Nolan to convince them to further collaborate with WB, let Warner Animation tackle more mature fare like The Lego Movie and also created other hits like Kong: Skull Island.

If it hadn't been for JL underwhelming, 2017 had a serious chance to be WB's most financially successful year yet. As it is, even with this major setback, their year is still solid for them thanks to Lego Batman, Skull Island, Wonder Woman, Dunkirk, Annabelle and It. Tsujihara is the Bob Iger equivalent of WB, he isn't relevant unless he steps in to rectify bad creative mistakes. Those mistakes could be easily avoidable in the first place if DC Films had its own Kevin Feige equivalent. Is Geoff Johns really that person? Too inconclusive to say for sure.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> They didn't give Snyder free reign. Or any of their directors


They did give Snyder free reign.  It is after giving him free reign that they were shocked when he gave them a movie over three hours... several parts weren't in the script.  That is why there was the UE versus the theatrical cut.  That is why they didn't give Patty Jenkins free reign.  They were nervous.

----------


## WontonGirl

> As a concession, can we at least have little cameos by the other characters in each other's films just to remind us that yes, there's a unified DC cinematic universe?  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Yes but have other characters do it. Maybe have Cyborg pop up in a Flash movie. 

Just try some different things, that's all I was saying. Right now, with The Flash being on TV and now on screen, this would be a good time to do something with him. Perhaps a mini web series on the DC streaming service.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Well I think they should just back up a bit and release stand-alone films, just for a little while. I know a couple of years ago, Geoff Johns really wanted to push more characters so maybe ease back off the whole DCEU universe and just do it like the old days; grab a character, release a film.





> As a concession, can we at least have little cameos by the other characters in each other's films just to remind us that yes, there's a unified DC cinematic universe?  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I think this is the best way going forward and think it will be successful. I'd love the cameos too.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> They did give Snyder free reign.  It is after giving him free reign that they were shocked when he gave them a movie over three hours... several parts weren't in the script.  That is why there was the UE versus the theatrical cut.  That is why they didn't give Patty Jenkins free reign.  They were nervous.


They told Snyder he could make a three-hour movie. Then they reneged on it at the eleventh hour and made the movie substantially less awesome, and the box office and RT score showed it. Just about every critic who also offered an opinion on the Extended Cut said it was MUCH better.

----------


## WontonGirl

> They did give Snyder free reign.  It is after giving him free reign that they were shocked when he gave them a movie over three hours... several parts weren't in the script.  That is why there was the UE versus the theatrical cut.  That is why they didn't give Patty Jenkins free reign.  They were nervous.


Will we see Snyder's cut? Will we have a Donner situation again?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yep. Even Patty Jenkins had to fight off studio interference in Wonder Woman. WB wanted to cut out the freaking No Man's Land scene, for God's sake! You know? Pretty much the best scene of the whole movie? The scene that pretty much singlehandedly won Wonder Woman the "inspirational" descriptor from so many reviewers? If reports are to be believed, Patty had to fight like Hell to keep that scene. I think I also heard that she had some backing from Johns. 
> 
> If WB had their way, Wonder Woman would've been substantially less awesome. Hopefully the fact that the studio didn't win that argument is a sign that Johns is using his newfound power to protect the visions of the directors from now on. We'll definitely see this for sure if Aquaman stays true to Wan's vision, because studio interference is just about the ONLY thing that could hurt that movie. The fans love Momoa. They're going to love him and Mera once they become THE power couple of comic book movies. And James Wan? The man has NEVER made a bad movie in his life!


I don't think the No Man's Land argument was as bad as some articles presented it to be. Jenkins' official version of the account is that she had to just explain to execs the significance of the sequence and why it didn't matter that it didn't involve a "bad guy" as such. It's a big business with people investing a lot of money. Obviously if they have doubts regarding some aspects of the product, they are supposed to ask the director for the clarification and to sell it to them. Which Jenkins succeeded at doing.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Agreed wholeheartedly with all of this except "Fire Tsujihara". Dude has allowed big budget off-beat and risky blockbusters like Mad Max: Fury Road and Blade Runner 2049 that other studios wouldn't dare, has honed the James Wan horror universe that allowed for other breakouts like It, has maintained good relationships with creators like JK Rowling and Christopher Nolan to convince them to further collaborate with WB, let Warner Animation tackle more mature fare like The Lego Movie and also created other hits like Kong: Skull Island.
> 
> If it hadn't been for JL underwhelming, 2017 had a serious chance to be WB's most financially successful year that. As it is, even with this major setback, their year is still solid for them thanks to Lego Batman, Skull Island, Wonder Woman, Dunkirk, Annabelle and It. Tsujihara is the Bob Iger equivalent of DC, he isn't relevant unless he steps in to rectify bad creative mistakes. Those mistakes could be easily avoidable in the first place if DC Films had its own Kevin Feige equivalent. Is Geoff Johns really that person? Too inconclusive to say for sure.


Having read this i say please don't fire Tsujihara. Films like Mad Max, Blade Runner 2049 aren't made nowadays.. Christopher Nolan keeps making those great films. No no after a successful year one failure is not a really big issue. 

I am a minority but i feel a 2 hr JL is better. It has a lean tighter feel and focuses on what is actually important. Had it been longer its flaws would be more clear. The film's strengths are the chemistry between characters and action sequences. The one thing which JL is better then the first Avengers film is the chemistry. The character interactions. That was not there in Avengers even when it ended. It was there but weaker. It is a coherent film. The extra material which is making the rounds would make it bloated and won't hide the faults: a bad villain, poor cgi and thin plot.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> They told Snyder he could make a three-hour movie. Then they reneged on it at the eleventh hour and made the movie substantially less awesome, and the box office and RT score showed it. Just about every critic who also offered an opinion on the Extended Cut said it was MUCH better.


Everyone said it was better.  I never argued that.  You are a die hard BvS supporter so I won't argue further beyond this post.  That first sentence is true but WB expected more action in a 3 hour cut for a comic book movie starring Batman and Superman.  Can you blame them?  We'll never see it but I would bet that the UE still wouldn't have scored about 55% on RT and that is being generous.  As we have seen critical reviews do have influence... especially on franchises.  You probably believe that BvS had no influence on JL's box office as well.  WB screwed up... by keeping Snyder on JL.  The evidence was there.  It wasn't worth keeping a release date as they have now learned.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Having read this i say please don't fire Tsujihara. Films like Mad Max, Blade Runner 2049 aren't made nowadays.. Christopher Nolan keeps making those great films. No no after a successful year one failure is not a really big issue. 
> 
> I am a minority but i feel a 2 hr JL is better. It has a lean tighter feel and focuses on what is actually important. Had it been longer its flaws would be more clear. The film's strengths are the chemistry between characters and action sequences. The one thing which JL is better then the first Avengers film is the chemistry. The character interactions. That was not there in Avengers even when it ended. It was there but weaker. It is a coherent film. The extra material which is making the rounds would make it bloated and won't hide the faults: a bad villain, poor cgi and thin plot.


For whatever reason that I can't explain Marvel just seems to hire writers that at least make it work and get the job done.  WB hasn't done that.  That is why everything takes longer than normal and creative teams keep changing.

Ambition and effort is worthless without execution.  The fans of professional sports teams who lose constantly have less ticket sales for a reason.  When a winning team starts losing sales decline... I should know I am a 49ers season ticket holder.  The stadium is half full.  Why?  We know they are trying they just aren't executing.  The stadium was full when we were contenders.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Everyone said it was better.  I never argued that.  You are a die hard BvS supporter so I won't argue further beyond this post.  That first sentence is true but WB expected more action in a 3 hour cut for a comic book movie starring Batman and Superman.  Can you blame them?  We'll never see it but I would bet that the UE still wouldn't have scored about 55% on RT and that is being generous.  As we have seen critical reviews do have influence... especially on franchises.  You probably believe that BvS had no influence on JL's box office as well.  WB screwed up... by keeping Snyder on JL.  The evidence was there.  It wasn't worth keeping a release date as they have now learned.


John Schnepp, one of the most savage critics of the Theatrical Cut upgraded his rating of BvS from 6.5/10 to 8.5/10. Pretty sure the RT score would've been higher than 55% if that view was shared by more critics.

Absolutely BvS had influence on JL's box office. And that influence would've been more positive if WB had left BvS alone. Even if it only got the 55% you described, that would've likely improved BvS's box office and a lot of people would've gone into JL with higher expectations.

----------


## Soubhagya

We can say whatever we want but one reason JL opened so low was BvS. I kind of like it. But general consensus is its terrible. 27% RT. It opened at 166 million dollars in US box office. Earned 434 million worldwide. Everyone and their mother came to watch the film with Batman and Superman.

But people hated it. They thought it was terrible. Its Cinemascore is B. It had a record drop next weekend and a multiplier of 2X when there was hardly any competition. 

See i know it is a film which touched a number of people. Its a wonderful film. Look at how fans love the film and Snyder. Look at the hate that Whedon is getting. That's alright but the fact of the matter is people as a whole hated it.

JL is the sequel of BvS. Why would they come to see it? There are other reasons but this is one reason imo. I haven't heard of a film which is hated by the people and its sequel earns a lot even if its better.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> They told Snyder he could make a three-hour movie. Then they reneged on it at the eleventh hour and made the movie substantially less awesome, and the box office and RT score showed it. Just about every critic who also offered an opinion on the Extended Cut said it was MUCH better.


It might have taken a bigger hit at the box office if the UE cut when to theaters.

It was rated R, and the longer runtime would mean less screenings.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> John Schnepp, one of the most savage critics of the Theatrical Cut upgraded his rating of BvS from 6.5/10 to 8.5/10. Pretty sure the RT score would've been higher than 55% if that view was shared by more critics.
> 
> Absolutely BvS had influence on JL's box office. And that influence would've been more positive if WB had left BvS alone. Even if it only got the 55% you described, that would've likely improved BvS's box office and a lot of people would've gone into JL with higher expectations.



Based on one person?  That is weak empirical evidence.  I'd bet against it considering Snyder's critical history.  It is no exaggeration to say that critics don't like Snyder's work in general.  He is more often than not below 50% approval.  What percentage of his movies have scored higher than 55%?

----------


## Lightning Rider

Definitely a factor. If people were iffy on seeing it, 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#58183e1e3742

Momoa:

*"I try to stay the f**k away from what people say," he told Entertainment Weekly.

"Some of my friends said, 'Justice League isn't doing well' and it kind of bummed me out. But I didn't want to look it up. I don't want to look up the bad and the negativity.

"I don't think that's useful; it doesn't help. I've seen [Justice League] twice. I loved it the second time even more."*

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/jus...vity-response/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It might have taken a bigger hit at the box office if the UE cut when to theaters.
> 
> It was rated R, and the longer runtime would mean less screenings.


"High RT Score = High Sales." That's the entire argument put forward by fans of RT. Titanic was three hours long. It was the highest-grossing film for well over a decade before Avatar dethroned it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> We can say whatever we want but one reason JL opened so low was BvS. I kind of like it. But general consensus is its terrible. 27% RT. It opened at 166 million dollars in US box office. Earned 434 million worldwide. Everyone and their mother came to watch the film with Batman and Superman.
> 
> But people hated it. They thought it was terrible. Its Cinemascore is B. It had a record drop next weekend and a multiplier of 2X when there was hardly any competition. 
> 
> See i know it is a film which touched a number of people. Its a wonderful film. Look at how fans love the film and Snyder. Look at the hate that Whedon is getting. That's alright but the fact of the matter is people as a whole hated it.
> 
> JL is the sequel of BvS. Why would they come to see it? There are other reasons but this is one reason imo. I haven't heard of a film which is hated by the people and its sequel earns a lot even if its better.


Dolores below posted numbers that paint a much clearer picture about those sales numbers in a previous post.

In response to your last statement.  Two words... Thor:  Ragnarok.  However, the Thor: Ragnarok director wasn't the same director as its predecessor.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> John Schnepp, one of the most savage critics of the Theatrical Cut upgraded his rating of BvS from 6.5/10 to 8.5/10. Pretty sure the RT score would've been higher than 55% *if that view was shared by more critics*.


But we don't know that they would.

Many critics called the movie bloated, bemoaning its runtime which they already considered too long. Had they watched the UE cut in theaters, they might have been even harsher. There's nothing concrete to say that critical reception would have improved substantially if the UE cut was the theatrical cut.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Based on one person?  That is weak empirical evidence.  I'd bet against it considering Snyder's critical history.  It is no exaggeration to say that critics don't like Snyder's work in general.  He is more often than not below 50% approval.  What percentage of his movies have scored higher than 55%?


What percentage of his movies weren't butchered by the studio?

----------


## Jon-El

I'm going to sound like a dinosaur but I remember going to see the original Superman films or the 80's Batman & not giving reviews or box office a thought. I liked the movies & that was the main thing. Social media sometimes drains the life out of things.  I watched a Thor movie & a Justice League in consecutive weeks & I've got a Star Wars movie in a few weeks. I'm pretty happy!

----------


## Confuzzled

> I am a minority but i feel a 2 hr JL is better. It has a lean tighter feel and focuses on what is actually important. Had it been longer its flaws would be more clear. The film's strengths are the chemistry between characters and action sequences. The one thing which JL is better then the first Avengers film is the chemistry. The character interactions. That was not there in Avengers even when it ended. It was there but weaker. It is a coherent film. The extra material which is making the rounds would make it bloated and won't hide the faults: a bad villain, poor cgi and thin plot.


Agreed. I also think the runtime wasn't the issue as much as the actual structure. After watching the film, it is easy to believe the earlier rumors that Justice League was planned as a two-parter, with the first part being all setup with Steppenwolf introducing the New Gods mythology and "Evil Superman" playing a bigger role, while the second part being Darkseid attacking Earth. After the reception to BvS, WB made Snyder scrap plans for "Grimdark Superman" and made it a much smaller and lighter plot point, and did away with most of the Darkseid setup so that the first parter became its own story. As a result, you get Steppenwolf, who should have been just a preliminary villain and a story device for manipulating Superman, be the main villain and the story was left that much thinner.




> For whatever reason that I can't explain Marvel just seems to hire writers that at least make it work and get the job done.  WB hasn't done that.  That is why everything takes longer than normal and creative teams keep changing.
> 
> Ambition and effort is worthless without execution.  The fans of professional sports teams who lose constantly have less ticket sales for a reason.  When a winning team starts losing sales decline... I should know I am a 49ers season ticket holder.  The stadium is half full.  Why?  We know they are trying they just aren't executing.  The stadium was full when we were contenders.


Well, it helps that Marvel has its own movie studio so it doesn't have as much of a taboo when it comes to hiring comic book writers and animation writers as WB does for their DC movie fare outside of Geoff Johns. Even someone like Allan Heinberg only got in because he has a lot of live action media stuff to his writing credit and he was already a successful tv writer when he began writing comics.

Feige also has much more power than the likes of Johns, so he can hire whichever director he thinks is the best fit for the characters and stories in question. With WB, they have tended to be loyal only to their small stable of creatives, though that is now changing with the firing of a top exec who was friends with the owner of a talent agency and who would hire creators for the DCEU only from that agency.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> "High RT Score = High Sales." That's the entire argument put forward by fans of RT. Titanic was three hours long. It was the highest-grossing film for well over a decade before Avatar dethroned it.



Critical reviews statisticcally only affect overall sales by about 10%.  Titanic was 3 hours long.  it was also reviewed well by critics and audiences.  That is a night and day difference between BvS.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> What percentage of his movies weren't butchered by the studio?


All of those others.  BvS UE was still flawed... it wasn't butchered.  The "misunderstood masterpiece" defense is laughable.  Snyder fans... your guy literally changed the entire DC cinematic universe with BvS... and probably made it smaller.   Congrats.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> "High RT Score = High Sales." That's the entire argument put forward by fans of RT.


Well if that's what they say, then they aren't right. With the site gaining more prominence, it can have some affect on gross but it isn't close to been influential enough to affect box office gross to that degree. There are many movies that have low scores that went on to become box office hits, and there are many that are acclaimed but didn't sell that many tickets.




> Titanic was three hours long. It was the highest-grossing film for well over a decade before Avatar dethroned it.


Those movies are exceptions, and they showed stellar staying power. Batman v. Superman has the 2nd highest weekend drop for a major superhero movie.

Not really comparable.

----------


## Confuzzled

So it looks like Nightwing is one project they are still going ahead with. Director Chris McKay just mentioned some casting call info on Twitter:

tweet.jpg

----------


## Troian

> "High RT Score = High Sales." That's the entire argument put forward by fans of RT. Titanic was three hours long. It was the highest-grossing film for well over a decade before Avatar dethroned it.


Titanic also had insane wom, making more than 20x its opening weekend and you do know Titanic was released in the late 90s? Movies could be much longer back then. Nowadays we're lucky if a blockbuster is longer than 150 minutes. 

Not to mention no r rated film has ever opened above 130 but Deadpool. And even then an r rating no matter what way you slice it will affect earnings because of the age restriction. Before you bring up Deadpool, it earned nowhere near its PG-13 counterparts like Avengers.

----------


## Troian

RT doesn't ultimately kill a film, its wom and marketing. 

JL's marketing wasn't as good as SS and BvS and its wom doesn't look that bright considering how it just had one of the biggest drops from Sunday to Monday in contrast to films that opened during a similar date (the week before American Thanksgiving). Actually, the rest of the week will likely go up because films have historically shown to increase during Tuesday-Thursday before Thanksgiving.

The general consensus just judging from social media is that it wasn't as bad as the reviews or as ppl made it out to be but it was meh. This is to be expected considering Snyder movies history critically and finacially. 

Also, BvS saw giant drops and was notoriously front loaded. Even the UE was a mixed bag, some liked it some still felt it that help the story. I doubt an R Rated UE would have done that much better I don't think its been discussed in depth but this same man, Zack S said he doesn't understand how superheroes in costume can have meaningful conversations or something to that effect. I see it kind of reflected the direction we saw in BvS.

----------


## Barbatos666

> All of those others.  BvS UE was still flawed... it wasn't butchered.  The "misunderstood masterpiece" defense is laughable.  Snyder fans... your guy literally changed the entire DC cinematic universe with BvS... and probably made it smaller.   Congrats.


The character most affected by the cuts in BVS was Knyazev, I was surprised by how much more prominent he was intended to be but that's it. 2 small scenes with Clark on a boat and a precinct weren't going to change anything and those were the only new material. The rest was an expanded version of the film we got, if people dislike something then how would giving them a longer version of the same thing = greater returns?
I haven't seen any critic or fan who disliked the TC but loved the UC. Almost all the fans of the UC that I've come across are the ones who liked the TC.

----------


## byrd156

Probably the best video essay I have seen.

----------


## Carabas

> As to your other point:  "voting with your wallet" can backfire.  Your intent might be that the lesson learned will be "make better movies," but the ACTUAL lesson learned could just as easily be, "this isn't worth it; we give up."


I'm fine either way.

If this is the best they can do I'd rather they just stop it.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I'm fine either way.
> 
> If this is the best they can do I'd rather they just stop it.


I don't like it at all.  I didn't come this far on the journey just to watch it go up in smoke.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## byrd156

> I don't like it at all.  I didn't come this far on the journey just to watch it go up in smoke.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


What journey?

----------


## Carabas

> I don't like it at all.  I didn't come this far on the journey just to watch it go up in smoke.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


See, I wish I had gone on a journey, but since they utterly failed to make me care about any of their versions of these characters except Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn, the train left the station without me.

----------


## Buried Alien

> What journey?


Well, the long journey is being a fan of DC's superhero characters since the 1970s, and waiting decades for a live-action JUSTICE LEAGUE movie featuring the cream of DC's superhero characters together on one large silver screen.  That's the LONG journey.

The shorter journey is the one that started in 2013 with the release of MAN OF STEEL, and culminated with the JUSTICE LEAGUE movie.

To just stop there when it was just getting started...it galls.

While it isn't hard to let go of the short journey (e.g. a reboot), the longer one (e.g. back to doing isolated DC movies or worse, NO MORE AT ALL, EVER) is far less acceptable.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Soubhagya

Copied from another thread. 'DC Characters loosing appeal'.


Okay its time to reflect and be honest. To your question the answer is both yes and no. 

No DC characters don't have that mass appeal. The only characters who have right now are Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. They are too ingrained in pop culture that to think that they are irrelevant is laughable. 

Let us be honest. I think you have love for Zack Snyder. And its perfectly fine. Art is subjective in nature. I looked at the poll of JL. About 9 people till now including me have said that Justice League is one of the best comic book movies of all time. This figure was a lot more with BvS. If you wish to do so check that thread again. There's a screen shot posted there. I was not there to vote last year but that number was 42. I stand by my decision as should everyone else. When something works for me just as well as Dark Knight and Avengers why shall i change my opinion? I have my opinion just as the others have theirs.

The point is that while art is subjective one can't ignore the commercial aspect. The fact that the films are made to be box office successes. To do this one can't simply rely on the subjectivity but also something objective. Metrics like Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic and Cinemascore do not lie. Zack Snyder is a wonderful film maker. He is a visionary and has love and passion for what he does. But what he does appeals to a few people. Not the majority. And when you are looking for box office success you can't ignore it. No film series is critic proof. Look at Transformers. They kept earning 1 billion dollars while their scores were really low. But now the earnings have gone down. Here's a link.

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/fr...rs#tab=summary

The truth is these scores fairly reflect what is audience sentiment. Here's a link of how they work. 

https://screenrant.com/rotten-tomato...ore-explained/

Read this. Think it over and then some DC fan can cry bias. Discuss and remove this cry and confusion here. Let me put this straight. DC has put three back to back 'divisive' films if i am being kind. While i like BvS to an extent, its still terrible. How do i know? The RT is 27%. The box office drop was 69% next weekend. It ran with hardly any competition but it earned just about two times its worldwide opening weekend. Its Cinemascore is B.

http://in.ign.com/batman-v-superman-...ore-as-catwoma

Audiences thought it was as terrible as Catwoman. Just as entertaining as Green Lantern which only recouped its budget. Why are drops and multipliers important? Why is Cinemascore important? That indicates repeat audiences. No film can break a billion without repeat audiences. People will love it. They will tell others. They will come again and again with friends and family. That's how you break 1 billion dollars. Wonder Woman was like that. It kept earning and earning. She had phenomenal legs.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

So, the truth is when you make 'divisive' movies three times in a row people loose trust. That's one important factor. 

Another reason is behind the scenes. All those unpleasant news including reshoots and others which seemed to keep coming one after another means audiences perception was soured. Why trust a product like this? There was also this late embargo which was made worse by that 'See It/Skip It' stunt which is not favorable at all. Do you know that while the embargo was removed at Wednesday the actual RT score was to be revealed at 12.01 am or something like that. But even after that the scores were not shown at Rotten Tomatoes website. There was the link to that Facebook show and no reviews were posted. Here's an article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc.../#73ae39aa5683

Its suspicious. It might not be malicious but it can create suspicion. When there's so much behind the scenes stuff like Affleck, Joss Whedon and then reshoots by Whedon it does not inspire confidence.

I feel the marketing was not done well too. Do you know why BvS earned 166 million dollars in US in first weekend and around 434 million dollars worldwide? Its because people were interested to see Batman and Superman. Say what you will Superman is popular all around the world. He is not just any hero. His symbol is among the most popular symbols around the planet. His origin movie Man of Steel was divisive. It had 55% RT. But guess what it still earned 667 million dollars worldwide. At that point only Spider-man's origin film had earned more and Spider-man is acclaimed. Its score is 89%. Iron Man earned 589 million at 94%. Wonder Woman earned 819 million at 92%. Back in 2005 Batman Begins the origin film earned 376. Superman Returns a sequel to a film 20 years ago and which lacks any proper action sequences earned more then Begins. 

Superman may not be the top tog. But he is a big thing. Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are  icons. They hid him in the marketing. Its not a good idea. All of us knew he was coming back. What was the point in hiding him? 

The trailers and promotion were generic affairs. At least Suicide Squad had something quirky and exotic going on. It was eye catching and attractive. Thus, 135 million. This film tried to push a team up of DC heroes. A team up is nothing new. It has a feel of been there done that. There is nothing special in uniting heroes anymore. And people either did not know or did not care for the superheroes like Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman. 

There are more reasons but i feel this catches the major ones.


At this moment Marvel heroes appeal to the masses. They make good to excellent films. Marvel has earned the trust of the people and have not turned it down. When they promise there is a fight between Iron Man and Captain America, this is precisely what you will get. The structure may be similar but Marvel has taken risks. Ant Man-heist film. Doctor Strange- Magic. (Did you observe that how long they took before introducing magic? It would have clashed with the sci-fi heroes like Iron Man, Captain America and Hulk. They plan so much). GoG-Star Wars. Say what you will the films are enjoyed by everyone at the theaters. Fans and non-fans alike. Except for some DC fanboys who seem to hate it. But that's okay. All are entitled to their opinion. And the opinion in the mind of the public is Marvel films are always an enjoyable experience in theaters. They vote with their wallets. They voted Wonder Woman too. But that is an exception. 

So, as long as they don't make films which can appeal to everyone they won't succeed. That's the simple truth. Or else the graph goes down. BvS-166, SS-135, WW-103, JL-96. The only time it increased was from MoS to BvS. But that was because there was something delicious and exotic something never done before: Batman and Superman together. Also, the first movie of Wonder Woman. When you give consistently good results the numbers increase not decrease. Even if they decrease they have an inherent stability.  

The characters have a history. I am posting how they managed to get Superman right in the first attempt. I am not dishing MoS. I have defended it. Its a good film. But  try to look what is the thinking behind Superman The Movie. I think they did not think this through with respect to Superman and later DCEU as a whole. (For instance Man of Steel is supposed to be Superman in the real world. Fine. Its new. One shall not be dogmatically attached to the past. Look at Superman Returns. But its hard to believe this is the real world when after so much destruction the film ends within 5 minutes and the city seems to be doing fine. If there is so much destruction what is the aftermath? Don't tell me its BvS. We did not get MoS 2. It was repurposed to BvS. That's the thing with the film and DCEU as a whole. There are lots of good ideas. But they don't follow the ideas through. Leaving an unfulfilled experience at best for most people while hatred the worst.) 

Here's the video.




Again i am repeating. It may or may not be good to have a different tone and trying things differently from comics. Sin is in not thinking it as a whole. Making a film which appeals to everyone and be of a reasonably good quality that people keep coming again and again is difficult. Maybe they should not have went with Snyder in the beginning. His Superman was too divisive. Iron Man on the other hand was a runaway success. Perhaps, they could have changed course after the BvS debacle. People would have thought wrt JL 'This is the sequel of BvS. Not interested.' Or maybe let him make his Man Of Steel sequel. And not made it a door for JL by introducing Batman and Wonder Woman. Of course i think that trying to go too far away from Superman of Donner was a mistake. Stick too close its boring. Go too far it is divisive. They always kept a reactive mode throughout. Marvel has Avengers let us make JL as fast as possible. BvS was not liked by people make things lighter.


It is still not all gloom and doom. Wonder Woman worked spectacularly. They may make solo films for a while. In other media they are doing pretty nice.

----------


## Buried Alien

> They may make solo films for a while.


I, for one, have trouble viewing returning to the 1978-2012 status quo for DC superhero films as anything to be excited about.  Sure, there were many good films in that era, but they were never about a DC UNIVERSE...just DC superheroes in isolation.  Didn't we get enough of that from 1978-2012?  Is the concept of a vibrant DCU in cinema really that impossible to achieve?  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> They did give Snyder free reign.  It is after giving him free reign that they were shocked when he gave them a movie over three hours... several parts weren't in the script.  That is why there was the UE versus the theatrical cut.  That is why they didn't give Patty Jenkins free reign.  They were nervous.


Not really. He signed up for a MoS trilogy, but was told to make the DoJ as the 2nd movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Copied from another thread. 'DC Characters loosing appeal'.
> 
> 
> Okay its time to reflect and be honest. To your question the answer is both yes and no. 
> 
> No DC characters don't have that mass appeal. The only characters who have right now are Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. They are too ingrained in pop culture that to think that they are irrelevant is laughable. 
> 
> Let us be honest. I think you have love for Zack Snyder. And its perfectly fine. Art is subjective in nature. I looked at the poll of JL. About 9 people till now including me have said that Justice League is one of the best comic book movies of all time. This figure was a lot more with BvS. If you wish to do so check that thread again. There's a screen shot posted there. I was not there to vote last year but that number was 42. I stand by my decision as should everyone else. When something works for me just as well as Dark Knight and Avengers why shall i change my opinion? I have my opinion just as the others have theirs.
> 
> ...


I don't care for Superman the Movie because the movie literally skips all his development as a person, and he's Supes after a timeskip. Don't get why people find it interesting.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Probably the best video essay I have seen.


I can post a video essay saying the movie is good, what's your point?

----------


## byrd156

> I can post a video essay saying the movie is good, what's your point?


If you watch it you'll get my point.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Not really. He signed up for a MoS trilogy, but was told to make the DoJ as the 2nd movie.


Yup, he wanted to bring Batman in as the "villain" for MoS2 but WB in their infinite wisdom thought this was a perfect opportunity to start a CU so BvS ended up getting delayed... (Mostly Due to visuals... In others they wanted to shove Doomsday in there) Terrio comes to rewrite the script to mould what WB wanted, Snyder does what they want, they then cut his film up a month before release. 

Gotta love Warner.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If you watch it you'll get my point.


I've watched that video already. I agree, and disagree, with parts of it.

Mostly disagree.

Now how about you watch these two videos, that share a different perspective.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

There's also this video which points out how the world in BvS actually matters, when compared to CW.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I don't care for Superman the Movie because the movie literally skips all his development as a person, and he's Supes after a timeskip. Don't get why people find it interesting.


Because nostalgia gogles can blind anyone to the faults of something and then inversely blind that same person to the good in something new that isn't what one grew up with.

MOS and the Donner Superman movies are both equally great and both equally flawed in different ways. To hold either on a pedestal is foolish and a big part of the reason Superman has struggled in all media for a couple decades now.



I've said it before elsewhere and I still believe it, the first Donner SUPERMAN movie is both the best and the worst thing to happen to the character across media. It made comic book superhero films a legit genre and was a good first step ( with the 1989 Batman movie the next significant step) . It was a great distillation of the character up to that point,  but it was an adaptation of the original source material.

The problem is that adaptation has dominated  so much of Superman's portrayle in media since that it has created a somewhat false,expectation of the character that he be portrayed a certain way and his universe portrayed a certain way  and anything that falls outside of that wheelhouse even slightly is deemed " not muh Superman" or otherwise rejected, even if it is consistent with past alternate interpretations. That it a prescription for one Ultimate outcome... Stagnation.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Because nostalgia gogles can blind anyone to the faults of something and then inversely blind that same person to the good in something new that isn't what one grew up with.
> 
> MOS and the Donner Superman movies are both equally great and both equally flawed in different ways. To hold either on a pedestal is foolish and a big part of the reason Superman has struggled in all media for a couple decades now.
> 
> 
> 
> I've said it before elsewhere and I still believe it, the first Donner SUPERMAN movie is both the best and the worst thing to happen to the character across media. It made comic book superhero films a legit genre and was a good first step ( with the 1989 Batman movie the next significant step) . It was a great distillation of the character up to that point,  but it was an adaptation of the original source material.
> 
> The problem is that adaptation has dominated  so much of Superman's portrayle in media since that it has created a somewhat false,expectation of the character that he be portrayed a certain way and his universe portrayed a certain way  and anything that falls outside of that wheelhouse even slightly is deemed " not muh Superman" or otherwise rejected, even if it is consistent with past alternate interpretations. That it a prescription for one Ultimate outcome... Stagnation.


Basically. It gets people talking about how Diana was portrayed in WW, as how they all need to be portrayed, with no regard to context.

Clark is unsure of himself, because he lives in a world full of suspision, and corruption. His parent were cautious with him because of how this world can turn on, and use people.

Bruce became unhinged because his 20 year war was futile, and the losses were getting too much for him. He feels powerless in his own city, let alone the world, and now there's alien invasions? Of course he becomes more brutal, and dangerous. He's desperate, and he was already an overly cautious man to start.

But, nope, all that context is ignored.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't care for Superman the Movie because the movie literally skips all his development as a person, and he's Supes after a timeskip. Don't get why people find it interesting.


Because you don't find it interesting doesn't mean others don't. See you can have an opinion. That's fine but there are other opinions. I think this is one of the best superhero films of all time. I watched it as an adult when i grew up with awesome films like Sam Raimi's Spider-man and Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy and it still holds up really well. 

You may not like it but i love it. And in its time it was a phenomenal success. The point i was making is about intent and execution. Snyder's films of DCEU has wonderful intent but poor execution. Results are there to see. 

One can disregard any good work. I may find Citizen Kane boring but that's an opinion. Which is fine. I find it boring and its boring to me. Not necessarily for everyone.


I like Man Of Steel. There are many good things here. While i prefer Donner and i still believe that, his kind of Superman can work even now by making some changes, i can see that MoS is a pretty good film. 

The problem began with BvS. Instead of trying to make a proper film the intent was to respond to Marvel. The result is a terrible film which i kind of like. Its a film which has something meaningful too, seeing that there are a lot of fans who keep on fighting for it. I admire that. But it did not work. Fair and square. A clamor for return to classical takes is inevitable seeing that Marvel is successful by accepting that they are comic book films which respect the source material instead of DC which thinks it respects the source material but keeps running as far from it.

----------


## Carabas

> One can disregard any good work. I may find Citizen Kane boring but that's an opinion. Which is fine. I find it boring and its boring to me. Not necessarily for everyone.


The reason why Citizen Kane is so important is because it premiered a bunch of stuff that had never or rarely done before in a movie, but that  e don't think twice of nowadays.
Like non-lineair story-telling. Or ceilings.

----------


## Soubhagya

> The reason why Citizen Kane is so important is because it premiered a bunch of stuff that had never or rarely done before in a movie, but that  e don't think twice of nowadays.
> Like non-lineair story-telling. Or ceilings.


And still keeps topping those charts with best films of all time. My point was there are varied opinions. There are fans here who don't like Superman The Movie i on the other hand love it. And just because some fans feel its a poor film does not make it poor. It was and still is the gold standard of comic book films.





> I, for one, have trouble viewing returning to the 1978-2012 status quo for DC superhero films as anything to be excited about.  Sure, there were many good films in that era, but they were never about a DC UNIVERSE...just DC superheroes in isolation.  Didn't we get enough of that from 1978-2012?  Is the concept of a vibrant DCU in cinema really that impossible to achieve?  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I am bored with such a future too. Honestly speaking i would watch only the Superman film. I am first and foremost a Superman fan. WW 2 is for sure because i loved WW. And Matt Reeves Batman. And that's it. I will check any other film if it gets great reviews and/or fans would recommend it. 

WB shall be wise. There's an example of a failure in Dark Universe. There's a success in MCU, the highest earning franchise of all time. There's proof of success and there's proof of failure in front of their own eyes.  

There are many ways to do this. I can give an option. Reboot. Start right from the beginning. You have two of the greatest superheros of all time. Batman and Superman. Batman always earns money. Batman Begins after the car crash that was Batman and Robin earned 375 million dollars back then when such numbers for superhero films were excellent. Superman always earns money. People forget that for a film with mixed reception Man of Steel after the poor SR, earned 668 million dollars. Of which 291 was stateside which is nothing to sneeze at, while worldwide it earned 378 million dollars. For reference that's more then the worldwide earnings of the first Captain America. When you have Superman and Batman in the arsenal there is nothing to fear. Make a few good to great films starting with Batman and Superman. Let the other characters get standalone films. But these characters are in the same world. But the world building shall be bonus material not plot points. Look from 52 minutes from the video i posted. It mentions how the marvel cinematic universe is a shared cultural experience which transcends all borders. I am from India and i am looking forward to Avengers IW. That's phenomenal considering the fact that i did not know that there's an actual team named Avengers when it came out in 2012.




And towards the end of the video specifically from 1:19:00 there's something i totally agree with. DC shall not be ashamed of itself.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> There's also this video which points out how the world in BvS actually matters, when compared to CW.


This video doesn't touch on the main issue at all: that Civil War's narrative was cohesive and well-structured, while BvS's was not. Giving the spotlight to normal people doesn't really matter if the story you're telling isn't that good. Civil War's conflict between Tony and Steve made sense and was well-developed. The conflict in BvS was rushed and made little sense at all.

Plus, you gotta love a video that glosses over the fact that the entire reason for the fight between the main characters is the fact that normal people are backlashing against their recklessness. The grieving mother who confronts Tony, Zemo who lost his family, and even T'Chaka, who was at the UN because of the Wakandans killed in the blast are all examples of civilians who have their role in the Civil War narrative.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham



----------


## Jokerz79

Did Rotten Tomatoes hurt Justice League? Probably but that's not the critics fault for giving their opinions and Justice League like most DCEU films had bigger issues.

1. there are with both BvS and Justice League storyline issues and with Justice League CGI issues. 

2. The DC Trinity are beyond comic book characters they're Americana in the United States and people have preconceived opinions on them and how they should be interpreted this is an issue Marvel doesn't have to deal with and many people disagreed with Snyder's versions.

3. Snyder yeah I feel Snyder was an issue because IMO he's a guy who takes great source materials and makes good movies. I always go back to his first film Dawn of the Dead it's good a great remake in fact but it has none of the depth that Romero's Classic does.

4. Fool me once. Wonder Woman was a stand alone film but Justice League definitely was a directed "sequel" to BvS down to directed with the same guy with the same cast if someone didn't like BvS why go see Justice League?

While I liked Justice League it had issues it had it's own issues and inherited issues and nothing critics said was ever going to fix that.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

well, ha video says he same as my other thread. People may say i was hyperbolic sayin DC  future is not lookin good ust because movies, but thats what that video says   the whole brand of those characters is damaged .

----------


## manofsteel1979

> And still keeps topping those charts with best films of all time. My point was there are varied opinions. There are fans here who don't like Superman The Movie i on the other hand love it. And just because some fans feel its a poor film does not make it poor. It was and still is the gold standard of comic book films.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am bored with such a future too. Honestly speaking i would watch only the Superman film. I am first and foremost a Superman fan. WW 2 is for sure because i loved WW. And Matt Reeves Batman. And that's it. I will check any other film if it gets great reviews and/or fans would recommend it. 
> 
> WB shall be wise. There's an example of a failure in Dark Universe. There's a success in MCU, the highest earning franchise of all time. There's proof of success and there's proof of failure in front of their own eyes.  
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but do you really think we need the origins of Batman and Superman again?  Everyone knows the origins. We've had a perfectly good Superman Origin movie with Man of Steel. Even if you want to ignore BvS and JL , that movie works pretty well as a stand alone origin story for more Cavill Supes movies or even if Cavill walks away and we get another actor. Batman Begins, taken on it's own is a perfectly good Origin for Batman, yes even the current DCEU one if you Squint and disregard different actors in those roles. 

As much criticism Superman Returns has, the premise of treating the Donner film and Superman 2 as the origin and then moving on to tell a new story isn't in itself a bad idea. The problem in that film is being too slavish to those movies to the point of literally copying plot points and dialogue from those movies and forcing the lead actor to play the previous lead actor playing the main character. Had they just used the Donner movie as a way of saying ( Here's where Superman, Lois Lane and Lex Luthor bl come from. This stuff happened in the past. Now we are telling a new story our own way." It may have worked.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

some comments of these doom and gloom youtube videos are really anoyying, the usual Marvel dick riding, and some even sayin that DC  should just quit the business. Just like the critics, i think most oft he people who says how much these movies sucks , is not honest at all, bandwagons are a thing

----------


## Confuzzled

> well, ha video says he same as my other thread. People may say i was hyperbolic sayin DC  future is not lookin good ust because movies, but thats what that video says   the whole brand of those characters is damaged .


Meh, they said the same about BvS and yet Wonder Woman broke out. I kind of doubt JL will have much of an effect, if any, on Aquaman, especially if it receives strong reviews.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Not really. He signed up for a MoS trilogy, but was told to make the DoJ as the 2nd movie.


He was given free reign when filming BvS.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Meh, they said the same about BvS and yet Wonder Woman broke out. I kind of doubt JL will have much of an effect, if any, on Aquaman, especially if it receives strong reviews.


whatever 


Also, there is some wrrysome notions, like that a movie NEEDS  to be lighearhed and fun , whatever the latter word means, tto be a good movie. Agian, im thankful that TDK  came before this trend

To JL, oher hing that maybe nobody considered is, GL  is a leaguer and a heavy hitter, you jus cant do the league without him, and hopin  a character that most people sill associates wih the titans fill his place

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Meh, they said the same about BvS and yet Wonder Woman broke out. I kind of doubt JL will have much of an effect, if any, on Aquaman, especially if it receives strong reviews.


Aquaman has the benefit of not being directed by Snyder.  Wan has a good reputation in Hollywood as did Jenkins.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> He was given free reign when filming BvS.




Thas justt not true,

----------


## FlashEarthOne

It was never going to compete with Episode 8,but WB is going to be even more embarrassed as they see that Episode 8 is tracking at over $200 million,

----------


## robreedwrites

> Dolores below posted numbers that paint a much clearer picture about those sales numbers in a previous post.
> 
> In response to your last statement.  Two words... Thor:  Ragnarok.  However, the Thor: Ragnarok director wasn't the same director as its predecessor.


I think in the case of Ragnarok, it was mainly due to the fact that Thor: The Dark World was - above all else - forgettable. BvS, whatever anyone thinks of it, sticks in the memory.

----------


## Confuzzled

> To JL, oher hing that maybe nobody considered is, GL  is a leaguer and a heavy hitter, you jus cant do the league without him, and hopin  a character that most people sill associates wih the titans fill his place


Lol nobody boycotted the film because it didn't have GL

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

The best  explanation  on why Justice League's domestic  opening was so low is that the BvS had already stolen the "novelty" factor for audiences of seeing the trinity  together for the first time  on the big screen and that film essentially played like a Justice League film would if it was released before, and Justice League just played like just another sequel to a movie  that made a buckload of money.   So it was more of a “fool me ounce shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" attitude  towards a lot of the marketing  so a lot people just couldn't be bothered.   To most audiences Justice League looked like the "Same ol' same ol'" and rejected it. 

Imagine  if Marvel  did Civil War first before they  did the first Avengers film does anybody really think the first Avengers film would still be  the juggernaut that it was?  Of course there are other factors to consider as well but for me this seems to be the most important reason.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I'm sorry, but do you really think we need the origins of Batman and Superman again?  Everyone knows the origins. We've had a perfectly good Superman Origin movie with Man of Steel. Even if you want to ignore BvS and JL , that movie works pretty well as a stand alone origin story for more Cavill Supes movies or even if Cavill walks away and we get another actor. Batman Begins, taken on it's own is a perfectly good Origin for Batman, yes even the current DCEU one if you Squint and disregard different actors in those roles. 
> 
> As much criticism Superman Returns has, the premise of treating the Donner film and Superman 2 as the origin and then moving on to tell a new story isn't in itself a bad idea. The problem in that film is being too slavish to those movies to the point of literally copying plot points and dialogue from those movies and forcing the lead actor to play the previous lead actor playing the main character. Had they just used the Donner movie as a way of saying ( Here's where Superman, Lois Lane and Lex Luthor bl come from. This stuff happened in the past. Now we are telling a new story our own way." It may have worked.


Reboot is a good option to consider. Apart from WW nothing has been well received. What if you just move ahead? Begin in Metropolis and doing all Superman stuff. Take Spider-man Homecoming as an example. It did not waste any time with the origin which people have watched twice within a decade. Just a throwaway line and that's it. Tell something we have not seen. That's a fresh approach. Show him doing awesome things. All the time spent in showing why he does what he does is not spent in showing him do the thing which he does.

When i said reboot immediately your mind went to an origin. I admit that it was so with myself. We Superman fans in particular shall get over our fixation with origins imo. I honestly believe that the best origin is in All Star Superman. Just give an outline and move ahead. Do something awesome instead of always looking back. 

Instead of trying to show his limits and say what he can not do, show what he can do. And that thing is in being awesome! Its a good approach. An interesting article.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-animat...rsion-you-saw/

Surely, a Superman film can be made within the range of 150-180 million if they try. First Iron Man has so many Vfx shots yet it costed around 150 million. If not it does not matter. If there are more successful films they can pick up the slack. That was a big part of the success of Marvel's Phase One. It was a risk which paid off big time. Hulk earned a dissapointing 263 mn for a 150 mn budget. Others balanced it. 

They have everything. But they need to change their approach imo. Follow that Producer driven, hired director approach. It seems hated but it has a proof of success. There's an Ant Man sequel coming up next year. And Man of Steel 2 is nowhere in the picture. I am trying to wrap my head around this fact.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Thas justt not true,


Given the fact that they allowed him to even  make a movie that long in  the first place and include some of the controversial things in it  then yes he had carte blanche.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Reboot is a good option to consider. *Apart from WW nothing has been well received.*


They are not going to reboot and dump Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman just because JL is underperforming.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Lol nobody boycotted the film because it didn't have GL


There is no arguing with the BvS defenders.  It is everyone else's fault BUT Snyder's!  It is a masterpiece!  Everyone who didn't like it just didn't get!  




> Given the fact that they allowed him to even  make a movie that long in  the first place and include some of the controversial things in it  then yes he had carte blanche.


Exactly... but still, "That's not true."

----------


## Soubhagya

> They are not going to reboot and dump Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman just because JL is underperforming.


There's no need to dump Gal Gadot. That's idiotic. She is the MVP of DCEU. If they do reboot DCEU, keep her in her own universe. That's an option. For a while don't bring WW to this rebooted DCEU. We will anyway watch her film, just as the whole world. Someday Patty Jenkins will end her series. After that introduce her in DCEU proper.  Not different from Post Crisis where WW debuted 7 years after Superman. Or simply do an Old Man Logan to WW in DCEU once the DCEU is properly established. 

They are never going to dump WW. They may or may not reboot the DCEU but they will surely make Wonder Woman. She is a phenomenon.

----------


## Confuzzled

So... what if James Wan's Aquaman breaks out just like how Wonder Woman broke out following the slightly underperforming BvS? Keep Aquaman in his own universe too? That movie strategy doesn't make sense and is way too confusing for movie goers.

WB should just accept that they made mistakes with DCEU "Phase 1" and prioritize avoiding said mistakes with Phase 2. That's basically it. Audiences can be pretty forgiving if mistakes are rectified, as seen by the performances of Logan and Days of Future Past which followed far less received predecessors. No reason to reboot anything. It's too lazy and wasteful a decision.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> There is no arguing with the BvS defenders.  It is everyone else's fault BUT Snyder's!  It is a masterpiece!  Everyone who didn't like it just didn't get!  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly... but still, "That's not true."




Whats up wih this agressive attitude, jeez. I  was not even defending he movie, quie he contrary, i said no GL  was other mistake. You  DECEU haters can be really vitriolic

----------


## TheSeaDragon

honest question. Would you be guys happy if WB  just cancels everything and we jus ge Marvel movies and fox mutant suff

----------


## Jokerz79

> They are not going to reboot and dump Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman just because JL is underperforming.


If they wanted to Reboot they could do a trilogy of GG Wonder Woman films set in the past completely separate while simultaneously introducing new versions of other characters in new films and in a few years doing a new Justice League where a new Wonder Woman is introduced.

----------


## Carabas

> He was given free reign when filming BvS.


Then why is there a longer version on blu-ray?
And why did he make Dawn Of Justice when he wanted to make Man Of Steel 2?

----------


## Carabas

> whatever 
> 
> 
> Also, there is some wrrysome notions, like that a movie NEEDS  to be lighearhed and fun , whatever the latter word means, tto be a good movie.


And The Dark Knight says it needs to be neither as long as it is good.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I love JL, it's on the right way, just paying for the bad reception of BVS and SS.

But WHY did they pick Steppenwolf? DC got so many amazing villains and they picked this guy? Instead of Brainiac or White Martians?

----------


## Carabas

> They are not going to reboot and dump Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman just because JL is underperforming.


No, they're going to really focus on it now and micro-manage it to death.

----------


## Soubhagya

> So... what if James Wan's Aquaman breaks out just like how Wonder Woman broke out following the slightly underperforming BvS? Keep Aquaman in his own universe too? That movie strategy doesn't make sense and is way too confusing for movie goers.
> 
> WB should just accept that they made mistakes with DCEU "Phase 1" and prioritize avoiding said mistakes with Phase 2. That's basically it. Audiences can be pretty forgiving if mistakes are rectified, as seen by the performances of Logan and Days of Future Past which followed far less received predecessors. No reason to reboot anything. It's too lazy and wasteful a decision.


Then Aquaman and Wonder Woman are in the same universe. See there has to be a proper foundation to build upon. Four out of five films have been divisive. That's really bad. The previous films have cast a shadow. I am hearing complaints with the line 
*spoilers:*
 'Do you bleed?' 
*end of spoilers*

by Superman. I enjoyed that line but some people mentioned that it reminded them of the terrible BvS. 

People love RDJ as Iron Man. Not just Iron Man. They love Chris Evans as Captain America. Not just Captain America. This is a challenge which Marvel will face in the coming years. 

That kind of love is with Gal Gadot and to an extent Ben Affleck who is leaving. In this way a reboot makes complete sense.

Tbh i hate this concept. After watching JL and the chemistry they had with each other i don't want anybody to go. But the reality is its not working. Spider-man got it right with the second reboot. I wish to see all those exceptional characters who had no chances. If they build up on a solid foundation and earn that trust and goodwill of the people then someday they can make a Doom Patrol or a Question film. Who even knew about Guardians of The Galaxy?

That's possible. Sky is the limit. But for the skyscraper to touch that sky the foundation has to be strong. That is my opinion.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> And The Dark Knight says it needs to be neither as long as it is good.


Or Logan, yeah the "critics only want light/fun" argument is really tired. 




> honest question. Would you be guys happy if WB  just cancels everything and we jus ge Marvel movies and fox mutant suff


As someone who disliked the DCEU outside of MoS and WW, hell no. Who on this board would be happy to not have DC movies?




> Then Aquaman and Wonder Woman are in the same universe. See there has to be a proper foundation to build upon. Four out of five films have been divisive. That's really bad. Can you add floor after floor of a skyscraper with a shaky foundation? I am hearing complaints with the line 
> *spoilers:*
>  'Do you bleed?' 
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> by Superman. I enjoyed that line but some people mentioned that it reminded them of the terrible BvS. People love RDJ as Iron Man. Not just Iron Man. They love Chris Evans as Captain America. Not just Captain America. This is a challenge which Marvel will face in the coming years. 
> 
> That kind of love is with Gal Gadot and to an extent Ben Affleck who is leaving. In this way a reboot makes complete sense.
> 
> ...


I don't think a reboot is necessary, and I think "foundations" are overrated. Clearly, the poor foundation of BvS did not hurt WW. 

I don't think there is any story baggage that coming in a director couldn't work with any of these characters.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> And The Dark Knight says it needs to be neither as long as it is good.



TDK  came before his MCU  fascinaion

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> Or Logan, yeah the "critics only want light/fun" argument is really tired. 
> 
> 
> 
> As someone who disliked the DCEU outside of MoS and WW, hell no. Who on this board would be happy to not have DC movies?



Well, someone  posed a video tha apparenly reduced all he problem  to Dark vs fun

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Well, someone  posed a video tha apparenly reduced all he problem  to Dark vs fun


IMO that's a silly oversimplification, its way more about execution than it is about tone.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> TDK  came before his MCU  fascinaion


And Logan came after.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I still think Jason should play Lobo.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

https://twitter.com/GiteshPandya/sta...57360285999104

Some rare good news.

----------


## Carabas

> TDK  came before his MCU  fascinaion


Fine. Logan.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> https://twitter.com/GiteshPandya/sta...57360285999104
> 
> Some rare good news.


It's quite enjoyable despite some flaws, I'm not sure why the critics were so harsh on it.

----------


## Bossace

The question now is will people show up for aquaman? Has the brand been tarnished too much or do we think a few good trailers could get a good weekend for aquaman? My worry is Awuaman will be great but that with how the GA feel about the DCEU wont botherr to even show up? I want a good aquaman less bro than JL please though

----------


## Nite-Wing

If people didn't show up for Superman...
Aquaman who wasn't really a stand out for this movie will be a hard sell by himself. Hopefully reshoots add more cameos from the JL because

----------


## Soubhagya

> Or Logan, yeah the "critics only want light/fun" argument is really tired. 
> 
> 
> 
> As someone who disliked the DCEU outside of MoS and WW, hell no. Who on this board would be happy to not have DC movies?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a reboot is necessary, and I think "foundations" are overrated. Clearly, the poor foundation of BvS did not hurt WW. 
> ...


Four out of five films. That is something? Do they even allow the directors to do their own thing? Why pretend? Go with the producer driven model. The reason why they say DCEU is director based in contrast to MCU is because they have no plan. 

Back to your opinion yes its one way. Just as mine. But what i think DC will do is scrap the universe thing altogether. They are reactive in their decision making. 

Reboot will be an option when they will discuss the future. A debacle like JL means there would definitely be a rethinking. Some firings might happen too.

----------


## Carabas

> It's quite enjoyable despite some flaws, I'm not sure why the critics were so harsh on it.


Critics generally do not care about subjective enjoyment. They care about huge, gigantic objective flaws, like 1/3rd of the movie obviously missing.

----------


## Soubhagya

> https://twitter.com/GiteshPandya/sta...57360285999104
> 
> Some rare good news.


Finally something good. But i don't think JL can properly recover. I have heard that Coco is really good. I hope JL keeps moving on.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Critics generally do not care about subjective enjoyment. They care about huge, gigantic objective flaws, like 1/3rd of the movie obviously missing.


But that's what blockbusters are for, the audience score has been pretty good.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> This video doesn't touch on the main issue at all: that Civil War's narrative was cohesive and well-structured, while BvS's was not. Giving the spotlight to normal people doesn't really matter if the story you're telling isn't that good. Civil War's conflict between Tony and Steve made sense and was well-developed. The conflict in BvS was rushed and made little sense at all.
> 
> Plus, you gotta love a video that glosses over the fact that the entire reason for the fight between the main characters is the fact that normal people are backlashing against their recklessness. The grieving mother who confronts Tony, Zemo who lost his family, and even T'Chaka, who was at the UN because of the Wakandans killed in the blast are all examples of civilians who have their role in the Civil War narrative.


Oh you mean the grieving mother, who blamed Tony  for the death of her bright son? You mean the confrontation that leads to nowhere, because Tony drags another teenager into his war?

Zemo is the "villain",  and nothing T'Chaka said is brought up again, as he was just there to get BP involved. The Wakandans were just get to get killed. The civilians opinions, voices, didn't matter to the plot, nor did they effect the heroes, so no it's not the same.

Civil War also did not develop this split gradually, or well, at all, and it all boiled down to Tony's parents in the end....not the actual moral, and ethical, rift of what a hero's duty is.

----------


## Soubhagya

> But that's what blockbusters are for, the audience score has been pretty good.


But its Cinemascore is B+. Tbh its not a very good figure. I doubt it will have a good wom. But i keep hoping.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> He was given free reign when filming BvS.


Yeah, but not free reign on what was the direction it ultimately went in.. WB wanted Superman to die, so Zack used Doomsday, the thing that killed Supes. If WB doesn't tell him to kill Supes, that doesn't happen.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> But its Cinemascore is B+. Tbh its not a very good figure. I doubt it will have a good wom. But i keep hoping.


I think its flaw got a lot to do with the bad previous setup. If we've got MoS2 in 2015, WW and Flash in 2016 and Aquaman in early 2017 instead of BVS, it would have been much easier to handle the JL movie.

Also the villain pick really sucks.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I love JL, it's on the right way, just paying for the bad reception of BVS and SS.
> 
> But WHY did they pick Steppenwolf? DC got so many amazing villains and they picked this guy? Instead of Brainiac or White Martians?


Steppenwolf could've easily been molded into a awesome, layered villain given all the elements of his character. However, it was squandered to make a fun, Avengers-esque movie.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I think its flaw got a lot to do with the bad previous setup. If we've got MoS2 in 2015, WW and Flash in 2016 and Aquaman in early 2017 instead of BVS, it would have been much easier to handle the JL movie.
> 
> Also the villain pick really sucks.


Defintely. Rushing DCEU to play catch up with Marvel hurt it the most. MoS is an interesting film. It needed a proper follow up. Too much was attempted in BvS to its detriment. JL is a sequel to BvS. Why would the people care to watch it?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Steppenwolf could've easily been molded into a awesome, layered villain given all the elements of his character. However, it was squandered to make a fun, Avengers-esque movie.


or just pick a better one with less remodify work required.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Steppenwolf could've easily been molded into a awesome, layered villain given all the elements of his character. However, it was squandered to make a fun, Avengers-esque movie.


What happened behind the scenes can make up a book by itself. Two films, later reduced to one. Then Director leaves due to family tragedy. A new director steps in and he is given six months to rework the movie. 

Tbh i liked Whedon's contribution which i feel improved the film. The character interactions is always brought up as a high point. But i can see there's a bigger story in the making. Personally, i love the film for what it is. I wished a two hour Justice League Action episode. And i got it.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Steppenwolf could've easily been molded into a awesome, layered villain given all the elements of his character. However, it was squandered to make a fun, Avengers-esque movie.


Even in the comics, Steppenwolf has never been more than a henchman.  The layered villain is Darkseid.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The question now is will people show up for aquaman? Has the brand been tarnished too much or do we think a few good trailers could get a good weekend for aquaman? My worry is Awuaman will be great but that with how the GA feel about the DCEU wont botherr to even show up? I want a good aquaman less bro than JL please though


Yeah, they'll show. They saw Momoa and liked him. James Wan is a very popular director who hasn't made a bad movie in his entire career. 

And? We already know the movie will look radically different from BvS and JL. We've seen set photos. Mera is wearing a costume MUCH closer to her comic book look and her hair is blood freaking red. Aquaman is in a brighter and better costume as well. There will be no confusing this movie with a Snyder movie. 

If Wonder Woman did well, there's no reason why Aquaman won't enjoy similar success unless the studio interferes. Again.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> https://twitter.com/GiteshPandya/sta...57360285999104
> 
> Some rare good news.


That seems to be good news, but I think the results over the weekend will be more telling. While I don't think _Coco_ will be the huge deal people think (even if it's being well-received critically), it's probably the stiffest competition JL's got this weekend. For all we know, the sexual misconduct scandal at Pixar could mean people don't show up to the movie in protest. Not saying they will or that, if they do, they'll go to JL instead. It's just something to watch for.

As for what direction the DCEU should take going forward, don't scrap it. It had a rough opening salvo, but now you've got characters that are getting a very positive reception (I haven't seen a single criticism/review that said the characters or actors were the problem with JL), so use them.

Don't go too big: just give the characters smaller-scale films to flesh out their arcs. There could even be team-up movies like Flash/Cyborg, Wonder Woman/Superman, etc.

If you want to be ambitious, you could *spoilers:*
have Deathstroke assemble the "phase 2" villains to build the Injustice League teased in JL's post-credits scene and use that as a narrative thru-line leading into JL 2, which should *not be rushed*.
*end of spoilers*.

I also still really, *REALLY* want a good Hal Jordan (with John Stewart, if we're keeping the team-up vibe) _Green Lantern_ movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> or just pick a better one with less remodify work required.


What remodify work? Everything needed ius already there.

Steppenwolf:
- a great general who's conquered worlds for millennia 
- a great warrior
- the uncle of Darkseid
- lots of experience fighting powered beings of all types
- hates his nephew, but ultimately fears him
- has seemingly exiled himself
- was described as "old and tired" by his VA

All that could easily set him up as a great layered villain.

Conquering has lost its luster, and appeal, because at the end of the day, it's all for Darkseid. He attempted to use Earth as the first step towards a coup, but was pushed back, as their potential surpassed even his expectations, and studies of the planet. Rather than go back to Apokolips, to Darkseid, defeated, he imposes a self-exile to himself, and lives the rest of his days warring, and conquering worlds. He's given up trying to overthrow his nephew, and now is merely looking for some random place to die. This has basically become the equivalent to an office job for him. However, the mother boxes on Earth call to him again, and he goes back despite himself. Maybe he'll give the coup another chance? Maybe he's decided this is where he'll die? Maybe he's come here to rekindle the fire of war in him, and reclaim glory? It's a combination of all three: he's come to see if his existence will amount to anything worthwhile. If he succeeds, maybe he can overthrow his nephew, but if he fails, then his fire truly is extinguished, and he doesn't mind dying to the first/only planet that resisted him.

This is easy to do. Just gotta actually think about it, rather than say "well he wasn't that interesting in the comics, so...". Jeez.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Oh you mean the grieving mother, who blamed Tony  for the death of her bright son? You mean the confrontation that leads to nowhere, because Tony drags another teenager into his war?


A teenager with superhuman abilities who is able to protect himself unlike the son who died as a civilian on the ground in Sokovia.




> Zemo is the "villain",  and nothing T'Chaka said is brought up again, as he was just there to get BP involved. The Wakandans were just get to get killed.


So what if Zemo's the villain? Yeah, he's the villain and therefore an important part of the story and what happened to him and his family is an important part of the story.

And T'Chaka is there to bring the BP mythos into the story, but that doesn't mean that he's not a very real casualty of the conflict.




> The civilians opinions, voices, didn't matter to the plot, nor did they effect the heroes, so no it's not the same.


Well, firstly, yeah they are. Zemo's opinion of heroes sure does seem to have a lot to do with the story. And Thunderbolt Ross, as the civilian who seemingly engages with the Avengers the most has a lot to say about it. But, again, giving the civilians a voice is a secondary issue. The primary issue is: was this movie a cohesive narrative? One of the films presented a very cohesive narrative. The other did not.




> Civil War also did not develop this split gradually, or well, at all, and it all boiled down to Tony's parents in the end....not the actual moral, and ethical, rift of what a hero's duty is.


Yeah it did. We saw Steve and Tony clash for multiple films. In the first Avengers, they are seemingly at odds with one another, with Steve thinking Tony is nothing without his suit, irresponsible, and egotistical. Tony thinks Steve is a stick in the mud. In the second Avengers, Steve (and the other Avengers) are understandably upset with Tony for his help creating Ultron. The very fact that Tony created Ultron signals his growing comfort with the idea of a supranational monitoring force. And, of course, in Winter Soldier Steve is confronted with the fact that SHIELD (a governmental monitoring organization) is being controlled by Hydra. That, of course, makes him suspicious of other groups coming in and trying to control his actions, like say the UN via the Accords. That specific development is even referenced in the film itself, when Falcon is surprised that Natasha is supporting the Accords.

So, yes, this conflict was developed and sprang from multiple threads that were present in previous movies.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Even in the comics, Steppenwolf has never been more than a henchman.  The layered villain is Darkseid.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Agreed. I didn't get bent out of shape by Steppenwolf's treatment because what we got basically _was_ Steppenwolf. Whether you think it should've been another villain or not is, of course, personal preference.

I just wanted a bad guy who was intimidating and formidable enough to get the band together, as the actual assembling of the team and the building of their relationships was (and should have been) the main thrust of the movie, and I think we got that.

Heck, I think Steppenwolf was a better (or at least better treated) villain than a lot of the MCU villains: Malekith, Ronan and Ultron were all worse than Steppenwolf.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> That seems to be good news, but I think the results over the weekend will be more telling. While I don't think _Coco_ will be the huge deal people think (even if it's being well-received critically), it's probably the stiffest competition JL's got this weekend. For all we know, the sexual misconduct scandal at Pixar could mean people don't show up to the movie in protest. Not saying they will or that, if they do, they'll go to JL instead. It's just something to watch for.
> 
> As for what direction the DCEU should take going forward, don't scrap it. It had a rough opening salvo, but now you've got characters that are getting a very positive reception (I haven't seen a single criticism/review that said the characters or actors were the problem with JL), so use them.
> 
> Don't go too big: just give the characters smaller-scale films to flesh out their arcs. There could even be team-up movies like Flash/Cyborg, Wonder Woman/Superman, etc.
> 
> If you want to be ambitious, you could *spoilers:*
> have Deathstroke assemble the "phase 2" villains to build the Injustice League teased in JL's post-credits scene and use that as a narrative thru-line leading into JL 2, which should *not be rushed*.
> *end of spoilers*.
> ...


This. The last thing WB needs is to panic and either shut down the DC films division or reboot everything.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> What remodify work? Everything needed ius already there.
> 
> Steppenwolf:
> - a great general who's conquered worlds for millennia 
> - a great warrior
> - the uncle of Darkseid
> - lots of experience fighting powered beings of all types
> - hates his nephew, but ultimately fears him
> - has seemingly exiled himself
> ...


None of these makes him a great villain, especially compare to all the big names DC got.

----------


## Jokerz79

> What remodify work? Everything needed ius already there.
> 
> Steppenwolf:
> - a great general who's conquered worlds for millennia 
> - a great warrior
> - the uncle of Darkseid
> - lots of experience fighting powered beings of all types
> - hates his nephew, but ultimately fears him
> - has seemingly exiled himself
> ...


Everything involving Darkseid is moot to critics or the General Audience because Darkseid is a name nothing else. We know what he is but for non comic book readers that names means nothing because it hasn't been seen on screen yet.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yeah, they'll show. They saw Momoa and liked him. James Wan is a very popular director who hasn't made a bad movie in his entire career. 
> 
> And? We already know the movie will look radically different from BvS and JL. We've seen set photos. Mera is wearing a costume MUCH closer to her comic book look and her hair is blood freaking red. Aquaman is in a brighter and better costume as well. There will be no confusing this movie with a Snyder movie. 
> 
> If Wonder Woman did well, there's no reason why Aquaman won't enjoy similar success unless the studio interferes. Again.


I like his Aquaman, but he really should have played Lobo. He's the guy for the character.

----------


## Buried Alien

Steppenwolf is clearly meant to pave the way, both figuratively and literally, for Darkseid.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> *The best  explanation  on why Justice League's domestic  opening was so low is that the BvS had already stolen the "novelty" factor for audiences of seeing the trinity  together for the first time  on the big screen and that film essentially played like a Justice League film would if it was released before, and Justice League just played like just another sequel to a movie that that made a buckload of money.   So it was more of a fool me ounce shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" so a lot people just couldn't be bothered.   To most audiences Justice League looked like the "Same ol' same ol'" and rejected it.* 
> 
> Imagine  if Marvel  did Civil War first before they  did the first Avengers film does anybody really think the first Avengers film would still be  the juggernaut that it was?  Of course there are other factors to consider as well but for me this seems to be the most important reason.


While I think there are a few more items that got us here (brand damage, publicity and studio interference), I very much agree with your point about BvS blowing the load early and don't see enough people discussing that facet of this mess. I also wonder what impact not showing Superman in marketing had on it. It just never felt like Justice League.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Well DC literally has no where to go but upwards. You can't get much worse than what was in JL and you can't get much worse than fighting a left over CG character from the Hobbit Part 2. 

They need to just double down and let some filmmakers make films. Let Aquaman be an AQUAMAN flick. Let these things breathe and see what happens. Don't cancel productions, and don't keep going in the same direction either.

Also, by God let someone make a SUPERMAN film.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Steppenwolf is clearly meant to pave the way, both figuratively and literally, for Darkseid.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Yeah I imagine this was meant to be a part 1 and Darkseid would have shown up in part 2.

----------


## batnbreakfast

You don't have your JL come together because of an alien invasion when the other team (Marvel) already went there. If you do let me have a look at the actor under all that Steppenwolf gear because Parademons aren't pretty compelling villains by themselves. Its mindboggling how WB was able to get a great cast with actual chemistry together because beyond that they  seemingly made every mistake there is.

----------


## Buried Alien

> You don't have your JL come together because of an alien invasion when the other team (Marvel) already went there.


Marvel did a variation of the reason the Avengers first convened in the comics:  LOKI.  The Justice League was actually the first team to convene due to alien invasion, but if you were to go with the comics, it would be either White Martians, Appellaxians, or Starro.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Steppenwolf is clearly meant to pave the way, both figuratively and literally, for Darkseid.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


That's not necessary, they could have used Brainiac or White Martians and create some relations between them and Darkseid.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Marvel did a variation of the reason the Avengers first convened in the comics:  LOKI.  The Justice League was actually the first team to convene due to alien invasion, but if you were to go with the comics, it would be either White Martians, Appellaxians, or Starro.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


See I would have actually loved to see Starro as the main villain. They could have explored the whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" type invasion as opposed to the full on "War of the Worlds" type invasion that Avengers dealt with.

----------


## Buried Alien

> See I would have actually loved to see Starro as the main villain. They could have explored the whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" type invasion as opposed to the full on "War of the Worlds" type invasion that Avengers dealt with.


They could even get their "evil Superman" fix if Starro were to temporarily possess Superman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## ekrolo2

> That's not necessary, they could have used Brainiac or White Martians and create some relations between them and Darkseid.


I don't get what's wrong with using Steppenwolf and just reworking his various aspects to make him more interesting. He's kind of in a perfect spot where nobody really cares about him, nobody will make a fuss about most alterations you make to him (as long as he's connected to Darkseid you're good to go) so a creator can jump in, make him interesting on his own terms and not face blow back because "DUR CUMIX!".

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I don't get what's wrong with using Steppenwolf and just reworking his various aspects to make him more interesting. He's kind of in a perfect spot where nobody really cares about him, nobody will make a fuss about most alterations you make to him (as long as he's connected to Darkseid you're good to go) so a creator can jump in, make him interesting on his own terms and not face blow back because "DUR CUMIX!".


Because DC got at least 20+ better villains than him to use.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> A teenager with superhuman abilities who is able to protect himself unlike the son who died as a civilian on the ground in Sokovia.
> 
> 
> 
> So what if Zemo's the villain? Yeah, he's the villain and therefore an important part of the story and what happened to him and his family is an important part of the story.
> 
> And T'Chaka is there to bring the BP mythos into the story, but that doesn't mean that he's not a very real casualty of the conflict.
> 
> 
> ...


1) The teenager thats a rookie, acts like a rookie, and treated like one. The teenager who is sent to fight Bucky, whom Stark sees as a killer. The teenager, whom Stark freaked out over him potentially getting injured after the fight.

2) Except he wasn't all that important, honestly. Zemo wasn't necessary to drive them apart, at all. He merely exacerbated it. If anything he degrades the conflict into something personal, which further makes the civilians not matter.

3) T'Chaka is only there to be BP's personal baggage to drives him into the conflict. His words on the political, and ethical, implications of the Avengers don't drive the plot, and aren't parts of the endgame. We never even hear BP's opinion on what his father said. Of course he ultimately sides with Cap, but that never was part of the original discussion. We also never see how it would affect him, as he was king/royalty.

4) Zemo's the villain, so yes he matters a bit, but he still ultimately didn't matter to the heroes. It was the heroes' personal grudges that mattered. Ross was never taken seriously by the Avengers. In BvS, the words of random people on the news, and people he interviews, constantly haunt, and color his actions, and demeanor. Unlike Cap, who straight up says the opinions of others don't matter because the world his best served by his. Yes, it a more cohesive movie, but it's also a simpler movie, and it makes a lot of the same mistakes BvS did. 

5) In the first Avengers it was pretty shit, they squabbled over. Steve and Tony clash a bit in the sequel, but that's gone by end of the movie. After the Tower of Babylon, after Batman saved them from his machinations, they still voted him off the team, with only Superman understanding the mindset of Batman. At the end of AoU, there's no indication of a great rift coming. There's no hint of Hawkeye disliking Stark, for instance. There's no talk of what Wanda did, in manipulating Stark, and Banner, to hurt people.

Winter Soldier makes Steve's PoV clear, but AoU hints at Stark's. Ultron could also easily be looked at as Stark trying to finally retire, but in a way that he doesn't leave the world defenseless. If anything, CW is about Tony's guilt, rather than him really believing in the cause he fought for. In the comics, Stark was actively getting involved with government so that he could do this. MCU Stark is not nearlly as involved at all, nor does he take Ross seriously.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

When the slate was announced a few years back I thought it would have made great sense to have Black Adam as the Loki of the DCEU for a few films. End credits introduce him in either BvS or SS, and have him as the main villain that unites the heroes in JL. He's a powerful but strategic enough villain where all alone, any member of the JL could be taken by surprise with him, and you could also have him leveraging other forces, thereby necessitating the JL's creation. From there it then opens the door to Shazam.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Also not sure is it spoiler or not.

I think Aquaman's ability is just not special on the land. Mera works better.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> None of these makes him a great villain, especially compare to all the big names DC got.


It makes him a layered villain for the movie. Comparing him to other villains i sent the point, it's about fleshing out his character. 

Again, all you gotta do is think about it for more than a second.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It makes him a layered villain for the movie. Comparing him to other villains i sent the point, it's about fleshing out his character. 
> 
> Again, all you gotta do is think about it for more than a second.


We don't need a layered villain. We need a badass villain to make this movie rock and roll, then create some links for the future.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

I think that, if we do see a Justice League sequel, that they should act not necessarily that the first one didn't happen, but more so that it was like a one-time thing. That way, it can sort of be like a do over and maybe they can even have fun with it and be a little meta like "oh we all know you guys didn't like us the first time around."

Fix all their costumes. Bring in Martian Manhunter and send Cyborg back to the Titans where he belongs. Have a villain that is not connected to New Gods. Save the New Gods for later. I'd think maybe the White Martians if we're bringing in MM. But if people are sick of aliens, maybe bring in Lord Havok and the Extremists, Amazo and Professor Ivo, Vandal Savage, or anyone else of the like.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I don't get what's wrong with using Steppenwolf and just reworking his various aspects to make him more interesting. He's kind of in a perfect spot where nobody really cares about him, nobody will make a fuss about most alterations you make to him (as long as he's connected to Darkseid you're good to go) so a creator can jump in, make him interesting on his own terms and not face blow back because "DUR CUMIX!".


Avengers comparisons? Which isn't fair since Loki was developed in Thor. But the team comes together when Steppenwolf a alien "God" comes to Earth looking for powerful boxes or a "Cubes" like a cosmic cube left here after an ancient battle involving aliens on Earth and the artifacts were hidden. Oh and an even bigger Alien bad hinted at? Sounds a little like Avengers another villain like invasion of the body snatcher with Starro or White Martians attacking something.

Not going to lie I enjoyed the Imperium story on Justice League more.

----------


## Jokerz79

> It makes him a layered villain for the movie. Comparing him to other villains i sent the point, it's about fleshing out his character. 
> 
> Again, all you gotta do is think about it for more than a second.


Except most of his "layers" are tied to Darkseid a character most of general audience has no clue who he is so it doesn't resonate. When judging these films they have to be judge on their own and not with the knowledge we have from the comics like the importance of Darkseid.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Everything involving Darkseid is moot to critics or the General Audience because Darkseid is a name nothing else. We know what he is but for non comic book readers that names means nothing because it hasn't been seen on screen yet.


So? The MCU did the same thing with Thanos, and the IG, with the casual audience not familiar at all. At least Darkseid was a major part of the DCAU.

Besides, Steppenwolf being a guy who conquered worlds so easily, and for so long, fearing Darkseid, this ominous force, as much as he does builds up Darkseid' s power, and influence. Then you just continue to build, and him with other movies, like GL Corps, Mister Miracle, and/or Lobo movies.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Avengers comparisons? Which isn't fair since Loki was developed in Thor. But the team comes together when Steppenwolf a alien "God" comes to Earth looking for powerful boxes or a "Cubes" like a cosmic cube left here after an ancient battle involving aliens on Earth and the artifacts were hidden. Oh and an even bigger Alien bad hinted at? Sounds a little like Avengers another villain like invasion of the body snatcher with Starro or White Martians attacking something.
> 
> Not going to lie I enjoyed the Imperium story on Justice League more.


Dude, you make this seem impossible. Everyone of your "complaints" can be used iuf they didn't use Steppenwolf, because X villain wasn't in a previous movie.

----------


## Jokerz79

> So? The MCU did the same thing with Thanos, and the IG, with the casual audience not familiar at all. At least Darkseid was a major part of the DCAU.
> 
> Besides, Steppenwolf being a guy who conquered worlds so easily, and for so long, fearing Darkseid, this ominous force, as much as he does builds up Darkseid' s power, and influence. Then you just continue to build, and him with other movies, like GL Corps, Mister Miracle, and/or Lobo movies.


Thanos wasn't the villain in Avengers he was the guy Loki was working for Loki was the main villain. Since then in the following films we've seen a little of Thanos and we know many fear him and the abuse he put Gamora and Nebula thru so when he is the main villain in upcoming Avengers Infinity War people now know of him and know why he's to be feared.

As for Loki compared to Steppenwolf Loki was developed in Thor the audience saw his back story and knew his motives and personality so they cared about him.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> We don't need a layered villain. We need a badass villain to make this movie rock and roll, then create some links for the future.


I see I'm discussing with someone who doesnt want to actually have a discussion, because that's not a valid reason.

And you just said you dont want a 3 dimensional villain, so I'm gonna just not continue with you.

----------


## jertz666

> https://twitter.com/GiteshPandya/sta...57360285999104
> 
> Some rare good news.



I'm not entirely sure this is good news.  Here are the numbers 2 days after the first weekend.  

Justice League 

Monday:   $ 7,508,311
Tuesday:  $10,600,000  (assuming the figure quoted is correct)

By comparison, here are the numbers for similar movies in the same time-frame as compiled from boxofficemojo.com


Thor: Ragnarok

Monday:   $ 8,247,661   
Tuesday:  $10,824,443


Spiderman: Homecoming

Monday:   $12,201,383  
Tuesday:  $15,053,665


Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

Monday:   $ 9,862,655
Tuesday:  $12,097,479


Wonder Woman

Monday:   $11,757,063
Tuesday:  $14,342,175

Logan

Monday:   $ 7,204,203
Tuesday:  $ 8,603,782

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> 1) The teenager thats a rookie, acts like a rookie, and treated like one. The teenager who is sent to fight Bucky, whom Stark sees as a killer. The teenager, whom Stark freaked out over him potentially getting injured after the fight.


And who largely kicked the crap out of Bucky because, again, superpowers. And, if Tony freaked out over him, the lessons that mother had to teach apparently sunk in.




> 2) Except he wasn't all that important, honestly. Zemo wasn't necessary to drive them apart, at all. He merely exacerbated it. If anything he degrades the conflict into something personal, which further makes the civilians not matter.


You mean, aside from being the person to frame Bucky so that the UN calls for his arrest, which is the entire reason Tony confronts Steve at the airport in the first place? Without Zemo, the climactic scene of the whole movie doesn't even happen.




> 3) T'Chaka is only there to be BP's personal baggage to drives him into the conflict. His words on the political, and ethical, implications of the Avengers don't drive the plot, and aren't parts of the endgame. We never even hear BP's opinion on what his father said. Of course he ultimately sides with Cap, but that never was part of the original discussion.


Yeah, he is there as personal baggage, but he's still a civilian face that has a voice. His views in support of the Accords ultimately come to fruition because, after all, Tony's side did "win" the conflict. The Accords went into effect and Steve is labelled a "fugitive."

And BP spent a good amount of the movie being blinded by his hatred for Winter Soldier, so he probably agreed with his father about reigning things in. However, unlike his father, he believes more in action in diplomacy, so he spends his efforts trying to hunt Bucky down and kill him. But by the end, when he realizes that Zemo set everything up, he finally accepts that his father's ways of peacefulness were the right ones and refuses to be ruled by hate anymore.




> We also never see how it would affect him, as he was king/royalty.


Don't even know what you're trying to say here.




> 4) Zemo's the villain, so yes he matters a bit, but he still ultimately didn't matter to the heroes. It was the heroes' personal grudges that mattered. Ross was never taken seriously by the Avengers.


And Zemo who set them up in a situation to fight one another. That was his goal. To manipulate their personal grudges. Didn't you say as much in an earlier post?




> In BvS, the words of random people on the news, and people he interviews, constantly haunt, and color his actions, and demeanor.


And that would be a valid point, if the movie wasn't already otherwise a hot mess.




> Unlike Cap, who straight up says the options of others don't matter because the world his best served by his. Yes, it a more cohesive movie, but it's also a simpler movie, and it makes a lot of the same mistakes BvS did.


Well, that's a complete mischaracterization of what Steve said. He never says that "only my opinion matters." He says that the safest hands are still the Avengers' hands. That's not his ego. That's his understanding of politics.

And disagreed that Civil War is simple. It actually shines a light on very complex themes.




> 5) In the first Avengers it was pretty shit, they squabbled over. Steve and Tony clash a bit in the sequel, but that's gone by end of the movie. After the Tower of Babylon, after Batman saved them from his machinations, they still voted him off the team, with only Superman understanding the mindset of Batman. At the end of AoU, there's no indication of a great rift coming. There's no hint of Hawkeye disliking Stark, for instance. There's no talk of what Wanda did, in manipulating Stark, and Banner, to hurt people.


Just because there was no obvious sign of a rift didn't mean the seeds of conflict weren't there. We had it on the record that Steve and Tony chafe at each other and their personalities clash. We got the big rift...in Civil War.

And there was no sign that Hawkeye disliked Tony in Civil War either, before he was jailed anyway. He just disagreed with him about the Accords.

And Wanda's actions were overcome in the second Avengers because she ultimately repented for her past actions by siding with the Avengers against Ultron and helping in his defeat.




> Winter Soldier makes Steve's PoV clear, but AoU hints at Stark's. Ultron could also easily be looked at as Stark trying to finally retire, but in a way that he doesn't l wave the world defenseless. If anything, CW is about Tony's guilt, rather than him really believing in the cause he fought for. In the comics, Stark was actively getting involved with government so that he could do this. MCU Stark is not nearlly as involved at all, nor does he take Ross seriously.


Civil War makes it clear that it is about Tony's guilt *but its also about* his beliefs. It can be both things.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Thanos wasn't the villain in Avengers he was the guy Loki was working for Loki was the main villain. Since then in the following films we've seen a little of Thanos and we know many fear him and the abuse he put Gamora and Nebula thru so when he is the main villain in upcoming Avengers Infinity War people now know of him and know why he's to be feared.
> 
> As for Loki compared to Steppenwolf Loki was developed in Thor the audience saw his back story and knew his motives and personality so they cared about him.


Uh, what you said the did with Thanos, post-Avengers, is exactly what I said they should do with Darkseid. At the time of Avengers, no casual knew what Thanos was.

Steppenwolf no being introduced in a previous movie, literally doesn't matter. It takes all of 5-10min sprinkled throughout the movie to establish everything I said about how I would've done Steppenwolf. Jeez, it's like people forgot that before the MCU it wasn't necessary, or a thing, to have solo movies for characters before the ensemble movie. Unless I missed the movies Vader, and Sidious, were in prior to A New Hope.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Uh, what you said the did with Thanos, post-Avengers, is exactly what I said they should do with Darkseid. At the time of Avengers, no casual knew what Thanos was.
> 
> Steppenwolf no being introduced in a previous movie, literally doesn't matter. It takes all of 5-10min sprinkled throughout the movie to establish everything I said about how I would've done Steppenwolf. Jeez, it's like people forgot that before the MCU it wasn't necessary, or a thing, to have solo movies for characters before the ensemble movie. Unless I missed the movies Vader, and Sidious, were in prior to A New Hope.


Vader was cool but didn't have depth in A New Hope that came with Empire and post Material. You were saying that Steppenwolf's relationship with his nephew the powerful and evil Darkseid was something that gave him layers and I was originally saying that since the general audience don't know who Darkseid is that means nothing. 

Quite frankly Steppenwolf doesn't have the cool factor of Vader either.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I see I'm discussing with someone who doesnt want to actually have a discussion, because that's not a valid reason.
> 
> And you just said you dont want a 3 dimensional villain, so I'm gonna just not continue with you.


Sadly that's true, because thanks to the bad setup, they are not going to have too much screen time to introduce the villain.

Even if we want someone with depth, Steppenwolf is a really BAD choice.

----------


## ekrolo2

> Avengers comparisons? Which isn't fair since Loki was developed in Thor. But the team comes together when Steppenwolf a alien "God" comes to Earth looking for powerful boxes or a "Cubes" like a cosmic cube left here after an ancient battle involving aliens on Earth and the artifacts were hidden. Oh and an even bigger Alien bad hinted at? Sounds a little like Avengers another villain like invasion of the body snatcher with Starro or White Martians attacking something.
> 
> Not going to lie I enjoyed the Imperium story on Justice League more.


Ehh, all of these first team up stories suffer from an inherent generic problem where they're all relentlessly derivative of one another. Both JL and the Avengers fit the whole "AHLIENZ! TEAM UP!" bullshit that's been run into the ground for decades.

I'd have preferred if both movies just didn't do that period but if we're gonna have it, I'd like for it to not suck quite as hard. Avengers kind of tried to make some war parallels that didn't go anywhere and Steppenwolf had some BS about him being old, tired and on his last legs and that went nowhere either. The thing with Steppenwolf is that in comparison to Loki, the REALLY could've done a whole bunch of alterations to make him a compelling bad guy, a freedom you don't get with a popular guy like Loki and JL failed to capitalize on this.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Vader was cool but didn't have depth in A New Hope that came with Empire and post Material. You were saying that Steppenwolf's relationship with his nephew the powerful and evil Darkseid was something that gave him layers and I was originally saying that since the general audience don't know who Darkseid is that means nothing. 
> 
> Quite frankly Steppenwolf doesn't have the cool factor of Vader either.


I'm saying that you just have to sprinkle his character where it's needed, and him being this legendary cosmic warmonger for an even more power king is enough of a hint. Knowing Darkseid isn't necessary. He can merely be hinted at, and we see, and hear, more of him in later movies. 

Mads Mikklesen's character in Casino Royal doesn't have the weight, or implications, of Blofeld, nor most CBM villains, and but still a great antagonist.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Ehh, all of these first team up stories suffer from an inherent generic problem where they're all relentlessly derivative of one another. Both JL and the Avengers fit the whole "AHLIENZ! TEAM UP!" bullshit that's been run into the ground for decades.
> 
> I'd have preferred if both movies just didn't do that period but if we're gonna have it, I'd like for it to not suck quite as hard. Avengers kind of tried to make some war parallels that didn't go anywhere and Steppenwolf had some BS about him being old, tired and on his last legs and that went nowhere either. The thing with Steppenwolf is that in comparison to Loki, the REALLY could've done a whole bunch of alterations to make him a compelling bad guy, a freedom you don't get with a popular guy like Loki and JL failed to capitalize on this.


Yup, basically this.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Yeah, but not free reign on what was the direction it ultimately went in.. WB wanted Superman to die, so Zack used Doomsday, the thing that killed Supes. If WB doesn't tell him to kill Supes, that doesn't happen.


This is completely false. Snyder said in an interview with Colider that killing Superman was his idea. Warners was somewhat surprised by the idea but ultimately let Snyder off Supes.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> This is completely false. Snyder said in an interview with Colider that killing Superman was his idea. Warner’s was somewhat surprised by the idea but ultimately let Snyder off Supes.


Which interview? Because I've yet to hear that, but it's known that WB wanted to kill Superman in a movie for years.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

A trailer that still gives me goosebumps to this day!

----------


## Slowpokeking

> A trailer that still gives me goosebumps to this day!


Yes, but I knew it's going to be a failure since the project was announced.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Yes, but I knew it's going to be a failure since the project was announced.


3rd highest grossing DC film ever. Spawned a first WW film that everyone loved. 

What failure exactly?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> 3rd highest grossing DC film ever. Spawned a first WW film that everyone loved. 
> 
> What failure exactly?


Critically. He's talking critically. And he's talking BvS specifically. And people seeing it is not much of an accomplishment if most didn't like what they saw and are therefore unlikely to see any sequels/follow ups. JL is underperforming because of the brand damage done by BvS.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> 3rd highest grossing DC film ever. Spawned a first WW film that everyone loved. 
> 
> What failure exactly?


Critics and further setback of DCEU, to make this movie we got no DCEU movies through 2014-15, which could been used for all the solos to setup for JL.

It's not that bad, but definitely NOT what DCEU needed at that time. You don't need such inner conflict between heroes when the universe has just started to buildup and the league hasn't been formed yet.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Critics and further setback of DCEU, to make this movie we got no DCEU movies through 2014-15, which could been used for all the solos to setup for JL.
> 
> It's not that bad, but definitely NOT what DCEU needed at that time. You don't need such inner conflict between heroes when the universe has just started to buildup and the league hasn't been formed yet.


I think it makes more sense for the conflict to come at first meetings, rather than after they are friends later on. That’s just me, though.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I think it makes more sense for the conflict to come at first meetings, rather than after they are friends later on. That’s just me, though.


Some conflict? Maybe, but setting it as a main struggle, let Batman want to kill Superman? No thanks. 

Remember movie isn't comics, it has limited screentime to setup, you got to build up such deep conflict then have them fight and turn into friends to fight monsters, that's a lot a lot of stuff and a big chunk of it doesn't help build up the team. BVS suffered from it badly, too much to tell. And even JL is still paying for the price. DCEU needed to mainly focus on build up the team THEN do something else. MCU would fail horribly if they had given us Civil War right after IM1.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> 3rd highest grossing DC film ever. Spawned a first WW film that everyone loved. 
> 
> What failure exactly?


Dude, come on.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Critically. He's talking critically. And he's talking BvS specifically. And people seeing it is not much of an accomplishment if most didn't like what they saw and are therefore unlikely to see any sequels/follow ups. JL is underperforming because of the brand damage done by BvS.


Breaking news these films aren't for the critics, they were made to get money, home video sales were on par and slightly higher than CA:CW so clearly the rewatchibility didn't faze audiences. Furthermore JL's "underperformance" could to for a multitude of reasons. Brand Damage of BvS? Seems a massive stretch given the fact the following DCEU films did well and WW even had Snyder on credit and his production studio. 

Ya'll don't like BvS fine but let's not start calling it a failure when it's clearly as evidenced not.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I'm not saying something like that shouldn't be on screen, but definitely shouldn't be the idea when we only got 1 installment and the Justice League hadn't been built up yet.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Dude, come on.


At least others gave an actual reply "dude,  come on?" What is this twitter? If you're gonna bother posting give a decent reply back yeash.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It made most of its domestic gross (even if just barely) on opening weekend, which is extremely unusual for big blockbusters. What that means is once people actually started seeing the movie, interest went down. It is one of only two major superhero movie that made 50% of its total domestic on opening weekend. The other is Watchmen.
> 
> Out of all the movies that had an opening weekend of more than 150 million, Batman v. Superman ranks as the lowest earner in total domestic gross.
> 
> Out of all movies that opened to at least 150 million domestically, it's one of the few that weren't able to reach a billion worldwide. The others were, Catching Fire, Spider-Man 3, and the Hunger Games. Two of those aren't that popular overseas, and the other came out ten years ago, before the international markets had expanded.
> 
> There are dozens of movies that opened lower than Batman v. Superman and went to gross more domestically. There are none that opened higher than it and grossed less.
> 
> It had the second biggest second weekend drop for a major superhero movie. The first is Ang Lee's Hulk.
> ...


These facts are worth repeating for those who want to post  BvS sales numbers as a measure of success.   You also have to take these numbers into account.  All of which lead to JL's opening weekend.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Dude, come on.


There are five specific posters here who are vigilant BvS defenders... there is no getting through to them.  The amount of spin is ridiculous.  I'm one of the people who actually liked BvS enough.  The worship from some is mind boggling.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Breaking news these films aren't for the critics, they were made to get money, home video sales were on par and slightly higher than CA:CW so clearly the rewatchibility didn't faze audiences. Furthermore JL's "underperformance" could to for a multitude of reasons. Brand Damage of BvS? Seems a massive stretch given the fact the following DCEU films did well and WW even had Snyder on credit and his production studio. 
> 
> Ya'll don't like BvS fine but let's not start calling it a failure when it's clearly as evidenced not.


To set up for the future DCEU movies as well, BVS failed and the critics has affected the future movie. To make it DC also lost 2014-16 for hero solo movies and THIS had greatly increased the difficulty to make the JL movie. WW became a success because it got away with the dark tone of BVS, even made some soft retcon.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> To set up for the future DCEU movies as well, BVS failed and the critics has affected the future movie. To make it DC also lost 2014-16 for hero solo movies and THIS had greatly increased the difficulty to make the JL movie. WW became a success because it got away with the dark tone of BVS, even made some soft retcon.


It is funny how the defenders/spin doctors  assume that people holding BvS accountable means they didn't like it.  JL's performance could be for a multitude of reasons, BUT BvS's reception definitely isn't one of them despite legitimate evidence to the contrary.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Breaking news these films aren't for the critics, they were made to get money, home video sales were on par and slightly higher than CA:CW so clearly the rewatchibility didn't faze audiences. Furthermore JL's "underperformance" could to for a multitude of reasons. Brand Damage of BvS? Seems a massive stretch given the fact the following DCEU films did well and WW even had Snyder on credit and his production studio. 
> 
> Ya'll don't like BvS fine but let's not start calling it a failure when it's clearly as evidenced not.


All films are made for critics. All films aim to be watchable, correct?

And the fact that it made money is, again, softened by the fact that many of those viewers just didn't care for what they were seeing. And that is evidenced by the fact that this conversation about the watchability of BvS was even had in the mainstream consciousness. Its evidenced by the fact that every mainstream mention of BvS has had to address the critical backlash it received, even when pointing out positives. And yes, JL so far is underwhelming at the box office. When a movie about the flagship team of the DCU has as lackluster of an opening weekend as JL did, you can bet that one of the reasons is that audiences thought "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me."

And Wonder Woman had the benefit of actually being a good movie. That's the reason why it was, domestically, the most successful of the DCEU films.

Also, lets not forget that BvS grossed 875 million while Civil War made over a billion. In the whole BvS vs. Civil War debate, Civil War is the winner.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It is funny how the defenders/spin doctors  assume that people holding BvS accountable means they didn't like it.  JL's performance could be for a multitude of reasons, BUT BvS's reception definitely isn't one of them despite legitimate evidence to the contrary.


Not just the reception, but the time it has wasted and the bad setup which they had to discard.

Like I've said before. Imagine if we have all the hero solos through 2015-17 and a sequel of MoS without the dark gritty tone, it would have been much easier to handle JL. Imagine if Marvel had released Civil War after IM2.

I knew this was going to be a failure right after they had announced the project, I don't hate the actual movie that much, it did "ok" based on how wrong the actual idea was.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> And Wonder Woman had the benefit of actually being a good movie. That's the reason why it was, domestically, the most successful of the DCEU films.


JL failed because Wonder Woman was in it.  It had nothing to do with Snyder, Terrio, or BvS at all!  I'm joking BTW.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> JL failed because Wonder Woman was in it.  It had nothing to do with Snyder, Terrio, or BvS at all!


I really wish to see Wonder Woman fights someone like Faora. The Ares fight sucks.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> Breaking news these films aren't for the critics, they were made to get money,* home video sales were on par and slightly higher than CA:CW so clearly the rewatchibility didn't faze audiences. Furthermore JL's "underperformance"* could to for a multitude of reasons. Brand Damage of BvS? Seems a massive stretch given the fact the following DCEU films did well and WW even had Snyder on credit and his production studio. 
> 
> Ya'll don't like BvS fine but let's not start calling it a failure when it's clearly as evidenced not.


This is not the achievement you're making it out to be. CW made nearly 80 million more at the domestic box office than Batman v. Superman. Home video sales have to reach astronomical levels for them to be able to signify audience interest, because not as many people buy them as seeing the movie in theaters. BvS sold about 3 and a half million units in home video sales. That's about 9% of its ticket sales. 

If a movie sees the kinds of drops BvS saw, then home video sales would have had to be much higher to show general audience interest in the movie.

For comparison, Thor: The Dark World sold roughly the same amount in home video sales and that movie grossed more than a hundred million less than BvS than at the domestic box office.

Wonder Woman's opening was the lowest a DCEU had opened at, and it made up so much of its gross through good WOM. Its opening weekend makes up 25% of its total domestic gross, compared to BvS's 50%. Wonder Woman is an example of a movie that kept generating interest after it had come out.

As an individual movie, Batman V Superman's total gross is respectable, but as a movie that was supposed to be part of a franchise and really kick into high gear the DCEU, its performance was catastrophic.

----------


## Robotman

how much money does Justice League have to make over the Thanksgiving weekend in order to be remotely back on track? Thor: Ragnorak passed the $200 million mark on its second weekend. Justice League is currently sitting at around $111 million. but it also had a bigger budget than Thor. so it could be looking at $175 after the holiday weekend. that would still make it a disaster.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> At least others gave an actual reply "dude,  come on?" What is this twitter? If you're gonna bother posting give a decent reply back yeash.


Youre trolling. So you will not get a lengthy response.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Breaking news these films aren't for the critics, they were made to get money, home video sales were on par and slightly higher than CA:CW so clearly the rewatchibility didn't faze audiences. Furthermore JL's "underperformance" could to for a multitude of reasons. Brand Damage of BvS? Seems a massive stretch given the fact the following DCEU films did well and WW even had Snyder on credit and his production studio. 
> 
> Ya'll don't like BvS fine but let's not start calling it a failure when it's clearly as evidenced not.


Lets see Wonder Woman was the first solo film to feature WW and the first female film since the abortion known as Catwoman. She wasn't going to fail.

Batman & Superman-have had tons of films and folks are getting tired of the depressed DC universe.

So while I agree it probably didn't hurt Justice League as much, it did leave a sour taste in folks mouth knowing it was linked to Justice league.





> These facts are worth repeating for those who want to post BvS sales numbers as a measure of success.


Transformers makes a ton of money and how well are they liked?

The bottom line is if the final tally of Justice League be enough to allow other films to get made linked to it or not. Who have not already started like Aquaman. 

I mean how does this help Cyborg & Green Lantern Corps films? Especially Cyborg-who was a hard sell to begin with for many and that looming film known as Black Panther. If that film outdoes JL's opening-call Celine Dion to sing the Titanic love song. Heads will be rolling.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> I really wish to see Wonder Woman fights someone like Faora. The Ares fight sucks.


 Yeah how they didn't bring in the female furies is  the real disappointment. They have no idea what they're doing. I just hope we get cheetah in the sequel

----------


## manofsteel1979

It's an oversimplification to point fingers at BvS, or the critics or Snyder or Whedon or WB or to the release timing or bad CGI or the hundreds of other possible reasons JL isn't doing well. Isn't it possible that it, may... Just may...Be a little of all of the above?
Just saying.

----------


## Bossace

So it looks like JL could make between 60-65 mil over the 5 day weekend while Coco making possibly close to 70. 60-65 isn’t bad and could have been a lot worse and a much bigger drop.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> It's an oversimplification to point fingers at BvS, or the critics or Snyder or Whedon or WB or to the release timing or bad CGI or the hundreds of other possible reasons JL isn't doing well. Isn't it possible that it, may... Just may...Be a little of all of the above?
> Just saying.


Yeah, but some things had a big effect than others.

General reception to Batman v Superman was probably the biggest factor. Even before WOM got started, optimistic projections for Justice League shortly before it came out were at around 110 million. And you got to wonder how much of that was goodwill gained by the Wonder Woman movie.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yeah how they didn't bring in the female furies is  the real disappointment. They have no idea what they're doing. I just hope we get cheetah in the sequel


Big Brada? Sure it would be cool.

Do you like my trailer?

----------


## Troian

> It is funny how the defenders/spin doctors  assume that people holding BvS accountable means they didn't like it.  JL's performance could be for a multitude of reasons, BUT BvS's reception definitely isn't one of them despite legitimate evidence to the contrary.


You really think that the direct sequel to BvS and the fact that BvS let many people down had no effect? Transformers were never known for their quality and the box office recipts finally caught up to match the quality of the film. 

People were burned out and everyone was cautious because they didn't want to be let down again. Thats why JL's hype levels weren't as big as Thor Ragnarok. And when the reviews came in and social media generally said it wasn't bad and it was just meh, it was the final nail for those on the fence of watching the film. 

But its not the end all be all factor, marketing wasn't as engaging as SS or BvS. To deny BvS' impact is just foolish. I saw so many comments online and heard in real life people being "cautious" and waiting till reviews came in or a friends review of the film before they saw it. But again, its not the end all be all factor.

----------


## Soubhagya

> It's an oversimplification to point fingers at BvS, or the critics or Snyder or Whedon or WB or to the release timing or bad CGI or the hundreds of other possible reasons JL isn't doing well. Isn't it possible that it, may... Just may...Be a little of all of the above?
> Just saying.


Yes it is an oversimplification. There are a lot of reasons. Imo one is marketing. (Which idiot thought it is good to hide Superman? Civil War showed Spider-man. It adds value. And there are more problems in marketing then simply 'hiding' Superman). The bad press about behind the scenes troubles is another. Reshoots and all. There are more factors which combined to work against JL. But i do think that one of the most important factors, probably the most important factor which hurt it is BvS. No scratch that i think its BvS which is the most important factor. The performance of BvS is in the levels of franchise ending films.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...w_this_stacks/

Please read the first comment. I find that it makes sense.

And those who are trying to say superhero fatigue have no figures or numbers to back this up. Each superhero film over performed this year save for JL. And i don't think the loss of novelty is a factor here. That people had already seen Avengers are not interested in Justice League. Avengers keep earning 1 billion without a problem. Civil War earned over a billion. It was the highest earning Captain America film. Helped by the fact that its basically Avengers 2.5. Novelty loss may mean it would not get 200 million opening weekend. Maybe 170 million at worst 150 million dollars. The same month had two heroes team up. Hulk and Thor. Audiences are not bored with more heroes in film. There's nothing to substantiate this claim. Thor 3 earned more then any of its previous installments. It earned 122 million dollars in its opening weekend. Am i to believe that Justice League would not be able to earn 135 million? A film with Batman and Wonder Woman and Co. You've got to be kidding me.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Which interview? Because I've yet to hear that, but it's known that WB wanted to kill Superman in a movie for years.


http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...ustice-league/


And while  Warner's wanted to do the Death Of Superman storyline they never wanted to kill  Superman before Justice League.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Pa Kent was the worst character of DCEU, he was saved by Costner's acting.

    Jonathan Kent: You have to keep this side of yourself a secret.

    Clark Kent: What was I supposed to do? Let them die?

    Jonathan Kent: *Maybe...*

Seriously? This is the guy who raised Superman?

----------


## Bossace

> Pa Kent was the worst character of DCEU, he was saved by Costner's acting.
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: You have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
> 
>     Clark Kent: What was I supposed to do? Let them die?
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: *Maybe...*
> 
> Seriously? This is the guy who raised Superman?


Dont forget the great way he died!

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Don’t forget the great way he died!


They really need to praise Kevin Costner's great acting made it believable and ignore how terrible the characterization was.

I love MOS a lot, but really hate this. Pa Kent should be someone who would immediately swim down to save those kids and be happy about how Clark has used his power for good purpose. Only such a role model could raise Kal El into Superman.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Yeah how they didn't bring in the female furies is  the real disappointment. They have no idea what they're doing. I just hope we get cheetah in the sequel


It won't happen but I'd like the SS sequel with Faora and Black Manta tying this universe together. Faora could put Harley in traction and maybe then I'd get a Squad movie resembling the SS comics (Nope, N52 SS doesn't count).

----------


## Jokerz79

> They really need to praise Kevin Costner's great acting made it believable and ignore how terrible the characterization was.
> 
> I love MOS a lot, but really hate this. Pa Kent should be someone who would immediately swim down to save those kids and be happy about how Clark has used his power for good purpose. Only such a role model could raise Kal El into Superman.


I remember being so psyched when I learned Kevin Costner was cast as Pa Kent and I was so disappointed when I saw MoS because this is hands done my least liked Pa Kent outside of George Reeves' Adventures of Superman simply because that Ma and Pa where only in the pilot. But Superman 78, Superboy Series, Lois and Clark, Smallville, and all animated versions rank higher and its not because of KC just the characterization of Jonathan.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> You really think that the direct sequel to BvS and the fact that BvS let many people down had no effect? Transformers were never known for their quality and the box office recipts finally caught up to match the quality of the film. 
> 
> People were burned out and everyone was cautious because they didn't want to be let down again. Thats why JL's hype levels weren't as big as Thor Ragnarok. And when the reviews came in and social media generally said it wasn't bad and it was just meh, it was the final nail for those on the fence of watching the film.


I actually believe the opposite.  I was joking about the BvS defenders in my post.  They would have people believe that BvS had no effect on JL's reception.  There are absolutely many variables.  I am in the group that thinks BvS's reception was by far the biggest factor.  JL was going to need critical scores of roughly 70% or higher to offset BvS's reception.  Given Snyder's track record with critics that seemed doubtful.

----------


## Carabas

> Don’t forget the great way he died!


Credit where credit is due. The guy stood by his convictions when it was his own life on the line.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Credit where credit is due. The guy stood by his convictions when it was his own life on the line.


Maybe so but "the guy" was not Jonathan Kent.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Pa Kent was the worst character of DCEU, he was saved by Costner's acting.
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: You have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
> 
>     Clark Kent: What was I supposed to do? Let them die?
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: *Maybe...*
> 
> Seriously? This is the guy who raised Superman?


He said "maybe." A word that by definition suggests a lack of certainty. Everything about his tone of voice and body language made it pretty obvious he didn't really mean what he said. He was a father who had a moment of selfishness in which he prioritized his own son's welfare over anyone else's. Just like EVERY half-decent father would. 

Bottom line? Clark continued to help people long after that talk, so clearly Jonathan didn't continue to discourage him.

Jonathan Kent was definitely Jonathan Kent in a realistic world in which ANY effort is made to acknowledge the likely dangers an alien child would face on this planet. The "classic" Jonathan Kent who encouraged his son to go around brazenly showing off his alien nature to the world can pretty much only exist in a Sliver Age world, populated by a very different human race than the one that inhabits this planet.

With regard to his death? We have not one scrap of evidence that Clark had superspeed at that time. Even if he DID have superspeed, you'll notice that every time he used it in the movie, he tore up the local scenery? There is no reason, based on observation, to believe that Clark COULD have saved him without harming him and/or exposing himself to the world.

----------


## Agent Z

> Pa Kent was the worst character of DCEU, he was saved by Costner's acting.
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: You have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
> 
>     Clark Kent: What was I supposed to do? Let them die?
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: *Maybe...*
> 
> Seriously? This is the guy who raised Superman?


Oh please. Hippolyta does far worse when it comes to discouraging Diana's heroism yet I don't see anyone dubbing her worse parent of the year. Jonathan's words never went beyond "think before you leap" while Hippolyta flat out threatened to banish Diana for defying her

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Oh please. Hippolyta does far worse when it comes to discouraging Diana's heroism yet I don't see anyone dubbing her worse parent of the year. Jonathan's words never went beyond "think before you leap" while Hippolyta flat out threatened to banish Diana for defying her


Ehhhh. In fairness, it's not clear Hippolyta threatened to banish her. In JL, Diana mentioned that the Amazons can't leave Paradise Island. Or at least she doesn't think they can. Hippolyta's words may not have been so much a threat and more a warning. "If you leave, you can't come back regardless of my feelings."

Now, the fact that Hippolyta used her royal authority to try to prevent Diana from ever learning even basic self-defense and to forbid Diana from even discussing going after Ares was pretty bad. As was her snapping at Diana and telling her that she wasn't an Amazon.

So, yeah. Hippolyta? Not exactly Parent of the Century either.

----------


## Buried Alien

In addition to Jonathan Kent and Hippolyta, we now also have Henry Allen and Dr. Silas Stone.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Pa Kent was the worst character of DCEU, he was saved by Costner's acting.
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: You have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
> 
>     Clark Kent: What was I supposed to do? Let them die?
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: *Maybe...*
> 
> Seriously? This is the guy who raised Superman?



What was I supposed to do?
Just let them die?

Maybe....there's more at stake here than just our lives Clark, or the lives than those around us.

I didn't see as many complaints when Pa Kent called Clark dressing as Superman "playing dress up" in Birthright

----------


## Soubhagya

> Pa Kent was the worst character of DCEU, he was saved by Costner's acting.
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: You have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
> 
>     Clark Kent: What was I supposed to do? Let them die?
> 
>     Jonathan Kent: *Maybe...*
> 
> Seriously? This is the guy who raised Superman?


I can see why fans hate it. Superman *is* Superman because of his parents. The Kents play such an important role in Superman that their importance cannot be understated. 

At the same time i am more forgiving then other fans. I don't like this take but it is an interesting take. It strikes home in this 21st Century world where people leave in fear and mistrust. When he says 'Maybe' it simply means that he is a decent person. He wants to protect his son. That's the first and prime motive of any parent. Second, Clark's presence has brought something much bigger then the Kents, Clark and maybe even the lives of the people. He is the answer to the question that 'Are we alone in this Universe?' That question has such a fundamental and deep implications to the world and the society. Religion and man's understanding and his place in the universe is brought into question. Clark is here for a purpose. Jonathan knew that someday he will become 'Superman'. Look at the last montage. Jon knew the inherent goodness of his son's heart. But before Clark acts upon that he must find those answers. In short, _he shall not be hasty.
_
At the same time he can't say from his heart that he can let the children die. Protecting their children is one thing but allowing others to die? That's unacceptable. Not knowing the answer he says maybe. I like that. He does not say 'maybe' because the kids can die.

Its real and is an interesting take. I like it but at the same time i don't like it as something which is responsible for creating Superman. Jonathan Kent's fatherly advice is so important for the Superman mythos that such a thing appears to be an anathema for everything that is Superman.

I get why people hate it. But i can see what they were trying to do. Its bold. Its interesting. Whether it worked or not i can't decide. Pa Kent appears like a real person here. But does he appear like Pa Kent? No. I am always of the view that Superman is such that he takes the best of humanity within him. Such people like Pa Kent of comics exist in real life. Such people existed in 1978 just as they do now. The world needs such people.

----------


## Thomas Crown

I watched "Justice League" for the second time yesterday. I still stand for my original opinion on this movie, but I must say that the difference between Snyder's original footage and Whedon's reshoots gets even more glaring in a second viewing. And I'm not talking about CGI, green screen or whatever, I'm talking about tone and quality of direction/writing. This movie looks like a "Zack Snyder movie", but it doesn't FEELS like one. With "Man of Steel" and "Batman v Superman", I left the theater in awe. With "Justice League", I left feeling...empty.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I watched "Justice League" for the second time yesterday. I still stand for my original opinion on this movie, but I must say that the difference between Snyder's original footage and Whedon's reshoots gets even more glaring in a second viewing. And I'm not talking about CGI, green screen or whatever, I'm talking about tone and quality of direction/writing. This movie looks like a "Zack Snyder movie", but it doesn't FEELS like one. With "Man of Steel" and "Batman v Superman", I left the theater in awe. With "Justice League", I left feeling...empty.


Yup the big one is in how things are directed, Snyder directs things with atmosphere, you can easily tell what is shot by Whedon. 

Now it's confirmed to exist I need that Snyder cut!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Yup the big one is in how things are directed, Snyder directs things with atmosphere, you can easily tell what is shot by Whedon. 
> 
> Now it's confirmed to exist I need that Snyder cut!


Though Snyder's JL cut is confirmed to exist has it been confirmed to actually be complete - i.e., vfx and score?

I dunno if WB would be willing to pour in the money needed to finish Snyder's cut if so, given that they might end up losing money on JL and that they weren't fans of his OG cut to begin with.

At most I'm expecting 10-20 extra minutes of cut-stuff like Vulko and Iris West on the blu-ray added into the film though I suppose we might get a Richard Donner Superman II cut style take on Snyder's cut one day down the line, with MoS/BvS music reused to substitute for an original Junkie XL score. (though the fan community has already done a bang-up job syncing Zimmer's work with JL scenes, though the vids have since inevitably been deleted!)

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He said "maybe." A word that by definition suggests a lack of certainty. Everything about his tone of voice and body language made it pretty obvious he didn't really mean what he said. He was a father who had a moment of selfishness in which he prioritized his own son's welfare over anyone else's. Just like EVERY half-decent father would. 
> 
> Bottom line? Clark continued to help people long after that talk, so clearly Jonathan didn't continue to discourage him.
> 
> Jonathan Kent was definitely Jonathan Kent in a realistic world in which ANY effort is made to acknowledge the likely dangers an alien child would face on this planet. The "classic" Jonathan Kent who encouraged his son to go around brazenly showing off his alien nature to the world can pretty much only exist in a Sliver Age world, populated by a very different human race than the one that inhabits this planet.
> 
> With regard to his death? We have not one scrap of evidence that Clark had superspeed at that time. Even if he DID have superspeed, you'll notice that every time he used it in the movie, he tore up the local scenery? There is no reason, based on observation, to believe that Clark COULD have saved him without harming him and/or exposing himself to the world.


If you are uncertain about should a BUS FULL OF INNOCENT KIDS die, you are very very low even as ordinary guy, not to say Superman's dad.

Clark just need to run in and grab him out, it took Pa Kent like 15 sec to get there, and they stared for like 20 seconds.





> I can see why fans hate it. Superman *is* Superman because of his parents. The Kents play such an important role in Superman that their importance cannot be understated. 
> 
> At the same time i am more forgiving then other fans. I don't like this take but it is an interesting take. It strikes home in this 21st Century world where people leave in fear and mistrust. When he says 'Maybe' it simply means that he is a decent person. He wants to protect his son. That's the first and prime motive of any parent. Second, Clark's presence has brought something much bigger then the Kents, Clark and maybe even the lives of the people. He is the answer to the question that 'Are we alone in this Universe?' That question has such a fundamental and deep implications to the world and the society. Religion and man's understanding and his place in the universe is brought into question. Clark is here for a purpose. Jonathan knew that someday he will become 'Superman'. Look at the last montage. Jon knew the inherent goodness of his son's heart. But before Clark acts upon that he must find those answers. In short, _he shall not be hasty.
> _
> At the same time he can't say from his heart that he can let the children die. Protecting their children is one thing but allowing others to die? That's unacceptable. Not knowing the answer he says maybe. I like that. He does not say 'maybe' because the kids can die.
> 
> Its real and is an interesting take. I like it but at the same time i don't like it as something which is responsible for creating Superman. Jonathan Kent's fatherly advice is so important for the Superman mythos that such a thing appears to be an anathema for everything that is Superman.
> 
> I get why people hate it. But i can see what they were trying to do. Its bold. Its interesting. Whether it worked or not i can't decide. Pa Kent appears like a real person here. But does he appear like Pa Kent? No. I am always of the view that Superman is such that he takes the best of humanity within him. Such people like Pa Kent of comics exist in real life. Such people existed in 1978 just as they do now. The world needs such people.


Anything that's not a "YES" is very very low, we are talking about a bus full of kids. 

If Clark could let they die, how is he going to do greater good for humanity?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Yup the big one is in how things are directed, Snyder directs things with atmosphere, you can easily tell what is shot by Whedon. 
> 
> Now it's confirmed to exist I need that Snyder cut!


I've always felt Snyder takes really great source materials and makes good movies so yeah for me it always goes from great to good once he's involved.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Though Snyder's JL cut is confirmed to exist has it been confirmed to actually be complete - i.e., vfx and score?


It was confirmed that the cut's VFX is incomplete. Here's a good article on this very issue.  

https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...-director-cut/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> If you are uncertain about should a BUS FULL OF INNOCENT KIDS die, you are very very low even as ordinary guy, not to say Superman's dad.
> 
> Clark just need to run in and grab him out, it took Pa Kent like 15 sec to get there, and they stared for like 20 seconds.


He wasn't uncertain. His body language tells the tale: he knew he was wrong. But as a father concerned for his son, he had a weak moment and said some things he didn't mean. People do things like that all the time. 

If it was as simple as you say, one assumes Clark would've done it, regardless of his father's wishes.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He wasn't uncertain. His body language tells the tale: he knew he was wrong. But as a father concerned for his son, he had a weak moment and said some things he didn't mean. People do things like that all the time. 
> 
> If it was as simple as you say, one assumes Clark would've done it, regardless of his father's wishes.


Then WHY did he say it at all? He is a father and others aren't? Can you imagine how much pain would they endure if they lost their kids? Do you think Superman should be taught "maybe you should let them die" in his childhood? Seriously?

The real Pa Kent should immediately swim down trying to save his son and other kids. Then trying to cover for Clark and be very happy about his son's heroic action. This is the Pa Kent I know.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Hey with all these deleted scenes being mentioned did anyone remember that scene tat Cavil described that was never in the final film? 

The scene in which Superman after comes back to life he argues with Batman about who's the leader of team?   I wonder if that scene is in the original Snyder cut.

----------


## Bossace

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...nesday-1061290

JL made 10.5 Million yesterday

Coco made 13.2 Million, that does include 2.3 from Tuesdays preview but even if you ignore that it still outpaced JL. Looks like JL will in fact be dethroned their 2nd weekend if this continues for Coco which is now estimated to make more than 70 Million, their projections keep creeping up.

----------


## GreatKungLao

> He is a father and others aren't?


He is a father of an alien. Others aren't. Pa Kent is obligated to think of a bigger picture, since DCEU takes more grounded, realistic and serious approach with DC characters, he has to think about how Clark might affect and change the world *forever*, which might not be his right to decide, so he has to keep him secret. This is Pa Kent who doesn't magically knows all the right answers in the universe that will leave everyone happy.

This is also what Perry was talking about "Can you imagine how people on this planet would react if they knew there is someone like this out there?".

Flashpoint Superman showed us what would happen if Clark got exposed at early age. This is exactly kind of development that Pa Kent in DCEU was afraid of.

Also, since you mentioned that Pa Kent is a parent and that others might be not? I think any parent would think about safety of his kid above all first. This might be egoistic, but that's what parents actually do. You can't ask father to chose between safety of his son or safety of kids that are not his.

Again, just because DCEU Pa Kent doesn't know all perfect, kindest and purest answers in the world doesn't mean he is a bad father. He is a realistic father.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He is a father of an alien. Others aren't. Pa Kent is obligated to think of a bigger picture, since DCEU takes more grounded, realistic and serious approach with DC characters, he has to think about how Clark might affect and change the world *forever*, which might not be his right to decide, so he has to keep him secret. This is Pa Kent who doesn't magically knows all the right answers in the universe that will leave everyone happy.
> 
> This is also what Perry was talking about "Can you imagine how people on this planet would react if they knew there is someone like this out there?".
> 
> Flashpoint Superman showed us what would happen if Clark got exposed at early age. This is exactly kind of development that Pa Kent in DCEU was afraid of.
> 
> Also, since you mentioned that Pa Kent is a parent and that others might be not? I think any parent would think about safety of his kid above all first. This might be egoistic, but that's what parents actually do. You can't ask father to chose between safety of his son or safety of kids that are not his.
> 
> Again, just because DCEU Pa Kent doesn't know all perfect, kindest and purest answers in the world doesn't mean he is a bad father. He is a realistic father.


How is it different for them to lose their kids?

There is NO big picture, if Clark can let a bus of innocent kids die and do nothing for his own safety, how is he going to save the world rather than becoming a selfish jerk? Superman is never someone who would worry about HIS OWN SAFETY when others' lives are in danger. This is god damn selfish and not something should come out from Pa Kent. 

Yes they care about their kids first, but most of them won't let so many lives die just to ensure their kids' safety, that's not really healthy love, but something really selfish and low. This should NEVER come out from Superman's dad.

----------


## Frontier

> In addition to Jonathan Kent and Hippolyta, we now also have Henry Allen and Dr. Silas Stone.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


With the former in prison while the latter's relationship with his son is...complicated at best (haven't seen _Justice League_ yet).

----------


## Jaddor

as this is a dc board it is not right to start  a debate about comic films of 2017 but really the way people are going on about this film, it stilll looks like GOTG 2 is the weakest comic film of 2017.

----------


## Jokerz79

> as this is a dc board it is not right to start  a debate about comic films of 2017 but really the way people are going on about this film, it stilll looks like GOTG 2 is the weakest comic film of 2017.


Certainly not Critically or Financially.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Certainly not Critically or Financially.


Yeah, JUSTICE LEAGUE is taking it on the chin, but really, on its own merits, it doesn't deserve to.  It's silly to think of a movie as being "persecuted," but if such an analogy is possible, JUSTICE LEAGUE fits the bill. It's being unfairly punished for the perceived sins of its older siblings.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Agent Z

> How is it different for them to lose their kids?
> 
> There is NO big picture, if Clark can let a bus of innocent kids die and do nothing for his own safety, how is he going to save the world rather than becoming a selfish jerk? Superman is never someone who would worry about HIS OWN SAFETY when others' lives are in danger. This is god damn selfish and not something should come out from Pa Kent. 
> 
> Yes they care about their kids first, but most of them won't let so many lives die just to ensure their kids' safety, that's not really healthy love, but something really selfish and low. This should NEVER come out from Superman's dad.


He said it in a moment of weakness and not being sure of how to handle an unprecedented situation. Surprise, there isn't a "What To Say To Alien Son For Dummies" handbook. No decent parent actually wants to be in a position where they will sacrifice others for their own child's safety, but Jonathan was in the unenviable position of having to provide answers in a situation that was far more complex than he wanted it to be.

And again, no one gives Hippolyta half the amount of flack despite doing the same thing and going even further in impeding Diana. Jonathan at least looked like he was trying to give his kid a choice.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Anything that's not a "YES" is very very low, we are talking about a bus full of kids. 
> 
> If Clark could let they die, how is he going to do greater good for humanity?


I said interesting. Not good. For parents the first concern is their own children. Everything else is secondary. But can something like a bus full of kids be secondary? No. But then is Clark's life secondary? No. So of the two which is primary and which is secondary? A decent guy Jonathan Kent, can't answer it at that moment.

No wonder Clark becomes Superman at the age of 33. He wants to help. But instead of being encouraged by his father he was actually stopped by him. Its definitely not what Jonathan Kent is supposed to be. Its a different take. And one has all freedom to hate it.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He said it in a moment of weakness and not being sure of how to handle an unprecedented situation. Surprise, there isn't a "What To Say To Alien Son For Dummies" handbook. No decent parent actually wants to be in a position where they will sacrifice others for their own child's safety, but Jonathan was in the unenviable position of having to provide answers in a situation that was far more complex than he wanted it to be.
> 
> And again, no one gives Hippolyta half the amount of flack despite doing the same thing and going even further in impeding Diana. Jonathan at least looked like he was trying to give his kid a choice.


It's not different than an ordinary kid swim down to save others. Yeah Clark might be exposed and suffer, but ordinary kid might actually lose his/her life in the rescue. Jonathan was afraid to lose his kid, nothing special.

What firstly came to his mind was not Clark's heroic action and those kids being saved, but Clark might be exposed, that was very very shallow and selfish, not something the role model and dad of Superman should think of.

Instead it should be "Clark I'm proud of you. Good heart and courage is greater than power. You should always remember that and use your power for good. " THIS is what he should have said.





> I said interesting. Not good. For parents the first concern is their own children. Everything else is secondary. But can something like a bus full of kids be secondary? No. But then is Clark's life secondary? No. So of the two which is primary and which is secondary? A decent guy Jonathan Kent, can't answer it at that moment.
> 
> No wonder Clark becomes Superman at the age of 33. He wants to help. But instead of being encouraged by his father he was actually stopped by him. Its definitely not what Jonathan Kent is supposed to be. Its a different take. And one has all freedom to hate it.


And the role model of Superman should be on the level of "no good"? Anyone ever says something other than "NO" when a bus full of kids should die or not, is well below the level of "decent".

And Joanthan Kent is not some decent guy, he is the guy who raised Clark to be Superman, his action and his words should be the role model of his son. Such guy could only raise Superman to be a selfish jerk who would be hesitated to save others for his own safety, that's not Superman and that's not what Pa Kent is.

----------


## Soubhagya

> And the role model of Superman should be on the level of "no good"? Anyone ever says something other than "NO" when a bus full of kids should be saved or not, is well below the level of "decent".
> 
> And Joanthan Kent is not some decent guy, he is the guy who raised Clark to be Superman, his action and his words should be the role model of his son. Such guy could only raise Superman to be a selfish jerk who would be hesitated to save others for his own safety, that's not Superman and that's not what Pa Kent is.


And i can't agree with you more. That's not what Pa Kent is. He's too different. I would say the guy is still Superman. Look at the fact, that nobody tells him to do the right thing.

----------


## Jaddor

> Certainly not Critically or Financially.


critically based on the content and context of the reviews, sorry I dont judge critical acclaim based on % numbers on rt if not then dr strange is more critically acclaimed than  inception and iron man 3 is more acclaimed than Gladitor and we know that is not true.

I judged critical acclaim  on why the movie is getting that acclaim. for instance I admire movies like X2, TDK, batman begins, dofp  for getting acclaim for been serious grounded comic films with a compelling plot and using a drama approach more than i value an acclaim for been fun or funny like the  mcu movies. 

JL content of reviews seems slightly better than gotg 2, wonder why gotg 2 got a pass and JL did not. Hmm.

----------


## Agent Z

> It's not different than an ordinary kid swim down to save others. Yeah Clark might be exposed and suffer, but ordinary kid might actually lose his/her life in the rescue. Jonathan was afraid to lose his kid, nothing special.[


Spoken like someone who isn't a parent.




> What firstly came to his mind was not Clark's heroic action and those kids being saved, but Clark might be exposed, that was very very shallow and selfish, not something the role model and dad of Superman should think of.


Clark is his son _first_ and Superman second.




> Instead it should be "Clark I'm proud of you. Good heart and courage is greater than power. You should always remember that and use your power for good. " THIS is what he should have said.


News flash, Jonathan did tell Clark that. He just also reminded him to think before he leaps, a lesson most superheroes could actually stand to hear every once in a while.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Yeah, JUSTICE LEAGUE is taking it on the chin, but really, on its own merits, it doesn't deserve to.  It's silly to think of a movie as being "persecuted," but if such an analogy is possible, JUSTICE LEAGUE fits the bill. It's being unfairly punished for the perceived sins of its older siblings.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Honestly I really enjoyed GOTG 2 I liked Justice League but it is at the bottom of my list for this year for live action comic book films based off Marvel and DC. 

For me it goes Logan is my number one comic book movie of 2017, then Thor Ragnarok Which was a blast, GOTG 2 which I could relate to some of the family issues in the film and again really fun, then honestly Spider-Man Homecoming and Wonder Woman are tied for me with Justice League ending the them.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> And i can't agree with you more. That's not what Pa Kent is. He's too different. At the same time i would say the guy is still Superman. Look at the fact, that nobody tells him to do the right thing.


What I would have written the 2 scenes.

1. Jonathan was around when he saw the bus fall, he immediately made the call and tried his best to save those kids, when he saw Clark, he helped him to cover up. Then back home he was very happy with Clark using his power for such heroic action, just need to be careful as well.

2. Jonathan was badly injured due to trying to save someone during the torando and Clark wasn't around.  By the time Clark was there it was too late. He used his last strength to tell his son that do not be too sad when you can't use your power to save everyone, but never hesitate when people need your help.

THIS is what I have in mind of the Jonathan Kent character, probably the best superhero comic dad. And his son is raised to be the most kindhearted superhero.





> Spoken like someone who isn't a parent.


I've seen many many parents who have lost their children, this is WHY I know what would happen if Clark left those kids die. Tens maybe hundreds of people would grieve for the rest of their lives, thinking about how would their kids grow, graduate, marry and have their own kids. Can you even imagine that? Trust me, if Clark really left them to die, this is going to inflict a huge wound in his heart for the rest of his life.






> Clark is his son _first_ and Superman second.


He is both, he isn't some ordinary kid, he is the one who becomes Superman, which is why his dad shouldn't be some below decent guy who could think about let a bus full of kids die for that.





> News flash, Jonathan did tell Clark that. He just also reminded him to think before he leaps, a lesson most superheroes could actually stand to hear every once in a while.



Clark Kent at 13: I just wanted to help.
Jonathan Kent: I know you did, but we talked about this. Right? Right? We talked about this! You have...!
Jonathan Kent: Clark, you have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
Clark Kent at 13: What was I supposed to do? *Just let them die*?
Jonathan Kent: *Maybe*

Bad, bad here.

----------


## Soubhagya

> What I would have written the 2 scenes.
> 
> 1. Jonathan was around when he saw the bus fall, he immediately made the call and tried his best to save those kids, when he saw Clark, he helped him to cover up. Then back home he was very happy with Clark using his power for such heroic action, just need to be careful as well.
> 
> 2. Jonathan was badly injured due to trying to save someone during the torando and Clark wasn't around.  By the time Clark was there it was too late. He used his last strength to tell his son that do not be too sad when you can't use your power to save everyone, but never hesitate when people need your help.
> 
> THIS is what I have in mind of the Jonathan Kent character, probably the best superhero comic dad. And his son is raised to be the most kindhearted superhero.


I get your point. The traditional take on Superman. They were trying different things. Its a different approach. And undoubtedly they paid for it in the long run. 

About being 'decent' guy. I think Jonathan is a decent guy in the film. Didn't he risk his life to save the dog trapped in the car? He would not let kids die in the bus if he would have been there. But when he talks with Clark he is unsure about what he would do. For parents their own kids are everything.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I get your point. The traditional take on Superman. They were trying different things. Its a different approach. And undoubtedly they paid for it in the long run. 
> 
> About being 'decent' guy. I think Jonathan is a decent guy in the film. Didn't he risk his life to save the dog trapped in the car? He would not let kids die in the bus if he would have been there. But when he talks with Clark he is unsure about what he would do. For parents their own kids are everything.


If he's some random dad I could be ok with it, just like ppl don't blame the other superheroes' parents too much. But this is Superman's dad and the take was definitely not what I wanted to see. Still I got to praise Kevin Costner's acting, imagine if some decent actor plays him and it's going to be unwatchable.

----------


## Soubhagya

> If he's some random dad I could be ok with it, just like ppl don't blame the other superheroes' parents too much. But this is Superman's dad and the take was definitely not what I wanted to see. Still I got to praise Kevin Costner's acting, imagine if some decent actor plays him and it's going to be unwatchable.


And you have every right to hate it. Superman is one character who is Superman because of the Kents. Without being taken in by the nicest people in all of Kansas what would he have ended up to be? Kents play such an important part of Superman's mythology, that their importance can never be overstated.

I just call it something akin to an Elseworld story. If you see it like this maybe you can hate it less.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> And you have every right to hate it. Superman is one character who is Superman because of the Kents. Without being taken in by the nicest people in all of Kansas what would he have ended up to be? Kents play such an important part of Superman's mythology, that their importance can never be understated. 
> 
> I just call it something akin to an Elseworld story. If you see it like this maybe you can hate it less.


Yeah, Superman is always special too me, I've watched several versions of movies/TV and love every one of them while they tried different approach. I love MOS overall as well, Henry was a great Kal El/Superman and most of the supporting cast did well. I especially like their take of general Zod. Just I couldn't agree with some of the approach like Pa Kent. 

I also believe such "overly dark and gritty" element was a big reason of why DCEU didn't meet its expectation. They have learned their lesson now but still paying for the debt. Let's hope it will get better.

----------


## jertz666

> JL content of reviews seems slightly better than gotg 2, wonder why gotg 2 got a pass and JL did not. Hmm.


Err....not true.   Even a cursory glance at the reviews would tell you that  JL's positive reviews are mostly along the lines of "It's ok."  or "At least it's not as bad as Batman v Superman."  These sound more like back-handed compliments than  ringing endorsements.   Many posters here will tell you to ignore the tomatometer and focus on the average rating so I compiled them for your convenience:

Justice League :  5.3
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2:  7.2

GotG > JL and it's not even close.

----------


## Ishmael

> Err....not true.   Even a cursory glance at the reviews would tell you that  JL's positive reviews are mostly along the lines of "It's ok."  or "At least it's not as bad as Batman v Superman."  These sound more like back-handed compliments than  ringing endorsements.   Many posters here will tell you to ignore the tomatometer and focus on the average rating so I compiled them for your convenience:
> 
> Justice League :  5.3
> Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2:  7.2
> 
> GotG > JL and it's not even close.


Or focus on the audience's score on RT.  I think that's a more accurate measure given what I've heard personally from all the people around me that have seen it.  They liked it and were actually surprised by the critics negativity.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I don't like to compare DC/MARVEL, yeah aside from the "Justice League" hype the movie got some obvious flaws, but it's quite enjoyable and didn't deserve what it got now. I just hope MCU, DCEU and Fox could all do well so we got many superhero movies to watch. MCU is great but it would be boring if every superhero movie follow that formula.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Yeah, Superman is always special too me, I've watched several versions of movies/TV and love everyone of them while they tried different approach. I love MOS overall as well, Henry was a great Kal El/Superman and most of the supporting cast did well. I especially like their take of general Zod. Just I couldn't agree with some of the approach like Pa Kent. 
> 
> I also believe such "overly dark and gritty" element was a big reason of why DCEU didn't meet its expectation. They have learned their lesson now but still paying for the debt. Let's hope it will get better.


So happy to hear from someone for whom Superman is special.  :Big Grin: 

You are kinder to MoS then me. I would not say i love MoS. Rather i like MoS. While it has a lot of good things there are many things which bother me. I agree about the supporting cast. I love each of them. 

I am on your side about their efforts in being dark and gritty. Personally, i don't think its the main reason. A different approach to Marvel could have worked. The problem was they made storytelling, plot and things like trying to make a good movie secondary and setting up future projects to play catch up to Marvel primary. I won't say they did not put in their best effort. It did not work out. They are already trying to get away from 'overly dark and gritty' elements. WW and JL are proofs. Let us hope they keep trying.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> So happy to hear from someone for whom Superman is special. 
> 
> You are kinder to MoS then me. I would not say i love MoS. Rather i like MoS. While it has a lot of good things there are many things which bother me. I agree about the supporting cast. I love each of them. 
> 
> I am on your side about their efforts in being dark and gritty. Personally, i don't think its the main reason. A different approach to Marvel could have worked. The problem was they made storytelling, plot and things like trying to make a good movie secondary and setting up future projects to play catch up to Marvel primary. I won't say they did not put in their best effort. It did not work out. They are already trying to get away from 'overly dark and gritty' elements. WW and JL are proofs. Let us hope they keep trying.


Yes, Dean's TV series made me love Clark. Then Reeve made me love Superman, he was Superman both on and off the stage. I like MoS' for the action scenes, the take on Zod, Faora was amazing/badass and most of the cast were good.

It's not the main reason for sure, but I don't think people would love to see such thing in a Superman movie unless you do it really really well, obviously it's beyond Zack and Goyer's level to do it well enough to make people like it, especially without enough setup. Yeah they've learned their lesson since WW. I don't think such element is bad, but it doesn't fit every hero and maybe it's not needed for current stage.

----------


## jertz666

> Or focus on the audience's score on RT.  I think that's a more accurate measure given what I've heard personally from all the people around me that have seen it.  They liked it and were actually surprised by the critics negativity.


The original statement is about reviews not audience reception.   Even then GotG's audience score is still ahead of JL's .... 88 vs 83.   Frankly, I'm suspicious of all user reviews or scores since companies and individuals are known to create multiple accounts to vote in favor of whatever product they're selling.   

Cinemascore does have an advantage in that they ensure that 1) one person gets one vote only and that 2)  that person has seen the movie.     GotG's cinemascore is A ... JL's is B+.

For the record, I did enjoy the movie while acknowledging its flaws.  For the average movie goer,  It can probably feel overwhelming.   97% of the audience are probably wondering "Wait, who is that woman talking to Aquaman and what just happened in that scene?  One minute they're underwater , then all of a sudden they're in dry land? "  Of course, us comic book fans know that's Mera using her hydrokinetic powers to create an air pocket.   Likewise, we know the history of Barry and Victor with their respective dads so we're not too bothered by the rushed story lines.   For the average movie goer and the average film critic, that's probably not true which would partly explain the negative reviews.

----------


## byrd156

> I watched "Justice League" for the second time yesterday. I still stand for my original opinion on this movie, but I must say that the difference between Snyder's original footage and Whedon's reshoots gets even more glaring in a second viewing. And I'm not talking about CGI, green screen or whatever, I'm talking about tone and quality of direction/writing. This movie looks like a "Zack Snyder movie", but it doesn't FEELS like one. With "Man of Steel" and "Batman v Superman", I left the theater in awe. With "Justice League", I left feeling...empty.


I felt the opposite about MoS and BVS, but with JL I felt meh.

----------


## Agent Z

> What I would have written the 2 scenes.
> 
> 1. Jonathan was around when he saw the bus fall, he immediately made the call and tried his best to save those kids, when he saw Clark, he helped him to cover up. Then back home he was very happy with Clark using his power for such heroic action, just need to be careful as well.
> 
> 2. Jonathan was badly injured due to trying to save someone during the torando and Clark wasn't around.  By the time Clark was there it was too late. He used his last strength to tell his son that do not be too sad when you can't use your power to save everyone, but never hesitate when people need your help.
> 
> THIS is what I have in mind of the Jonathan Kent character, probably the best superhero comic dad. And his son is raised to be the most kindhearted superhero.
> 
> 
> ...


He didn't let them die. His father did not advocate letting them die. How are you not getting this? There is an entire middle ground between cartoknishly perfect and complete monster but I guess nuance isn't something many Superman fans understand 

Oh and next time actually use the rest of the quote and not just the one that doesn't disprove your point

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He didn't let them die. His father did not advocate letting them die. How are you not getting this? There is an entire middle ground between cartoknishly perfect and complete monster but I guess nuance isn't something many Superman fans understand 
> 
> Oh and next time actually use the rest of the quote and not just the one that doesn't disprove your point


THIS is below "decent" level by realistic standards. How is it cartoonish perfect if Pa Kent be happy about what Clark have done? Many parents are at that level, they love their kids but they absolutely don't want so many innocent kids to die because as parents they could feel other's pain, and it would leave a huge scar in their kids' heart for the rest of his life. Even if some of them have that kind of thought for a moment they would not speak out before their kid for obvious reason. 

And let me be clear, Superman is the most ideal and kindhearted hero of all comics. His dad, his childhood role model surely got a very high standard like his other portrayal. You don't pick some below decent guy for that job.

The rest of the quote doesn't make up anything, he didn't even say "sorry that was totally wrong", instead he used some "there is greater thing for you to do", this is terrible excuse. How is Superman going to do "bigger" things if he could let a bus of innocent kids die?  I'm a decent guy and nowhere close to Superman's saint level, even I feel this is terrible.

----------


## Agent Z

> THIS is below "decent" level by realistic standards. How is it cartoonish perfect if Pa Kent be happy about what Clark have done? Many parents are at that level, they love their kids but they absolutely don't want so many innocent kids to die because as parents they could feel other's pain, and it would leave a huge scar in their kids' heart for the rest of his life. Even if some of them have that kind of thought for a moment they would not speak out before their kid for obvious reason.


Many parents don't have to worry about their kids being taken away and hacked apart by some government organization who fears what is different. And for the thousandth time, Jonathan did not want those kids to die. Again, unless you’re a parent, you’re really not in a position to judge.




> And let me be clear, Superman is the most ideal and kindhearted hero of all comics.


Yeah, when the only people who have an issue with him are villains. Easy to be a saint in paradise.




> His dad, his childhood role model surely got a very high standard like his other portrayal. You don't pick some below decent guy for that job.


Tell me did his oh so perfect father set the standard for stuff like him telling people to "slap a J*p". Or do any of the crap he pulled in the Silver Age? Did Reeves' version learn it's okay to mindwipe people from his father? Between GA Superman being more Punisher with super powers, Silver Age being an unsympathetic comedy protagonist at best and post crisis having more than his share of flaws, I'm honestly wondering where this idealized view of a Superman who does no wrong even came from.




> The rest of the quote doesn't make up anything, he didn't even say "sorry that was totally wrong", instead he used some "there is greater thing for you to do", this is terrible excuse. How is Superman going to do "bigger" things if he could let a bus of innocent kids die?  I'm a decent guy and nowhere close to Superman's saint level, even I feel this is terrible.


His point wasn't that he should have let the kids die to do bigger things. His point was that he won't be of nay help to anyone if he's always looking over his shoulder

Jonathan Kent: Maybe; but there's more at stake here than our lives or the lives of those around us. When the world... When the world finds out what you can do, it's gonna change everything; our... our beliefs, our notions of what it means to be human... everything. *You saw how Pete's mom reacted, right? She was scared, Clark.*

Clark Kent at 13: Why?

Jonathan Kent: *People are afraid of what they don't understand.*

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Man....I've seen it a few more times, and I gotta say that my enjoyment of the movie has lessened with each viewing.

I started at an 8, but am now at a 5.5-6/10. It's just okay/fine, now. It's too basic, and by the number to really enjoy, IMO.

It's such a departure from MoS, and BvS, but not in a good way. What this movie needed was a co-director, with Snyder's sensibilities, but is a better storyteller, and better with character. Nolan, Affleck, or Villanueve, or directors like that would've been perfect to co-direct this movie with Snyder. They're also much better editors than Whedon.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Many parents don't have to worry about their kids being taken away and hacked apart by some government organization who fears what is different. And for the thousandth time, Jonathan did not want those kids to die. Again, unless you’re a parent, you’re really not in a position to judge.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, when the only people who have an issue with him are villains. Easy to be a saint in paradise.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me did his oh so perfect father set the standard for stuff like him telling people to "slap a J*p". Or do any of the crap he pulled in the Silver Age? Did Reeves' version learn it's okay to mindwipe people from his father? Between GA Superman being more Punisher with super powers, Silver Age being an unsympathetic comedy protagonist at best and post crisis having more than his share of flaws, I'm honestly wondering where this idealized view of a Superman who does no wrong even came from.
> ...


The funny thing is that people are loving Doomsday Clock #1, and the Kents are pretty much talking exactly how the Kents did in MoS. Basically, they were actual parents living in a world that takes stuff seriously.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Many parents don't have to worry about their kids being taken away and hacked apart by some government organization who fears what is different. And for the thousandth time, Jonathan did not want those kids to die. Again, unless you’re a parent, you’re really not in a position to judge.


They have to worry about their kid's life if they try to swim down and save others, same thing here. Jonathan said maybe they should die if saving them could put Clark in danger. Do you know how low that is? They are not the only parents there, most or all that bus' kids got parents. Can you imagine what would happen to them if their kids have died?






> Yeah, when the only people who have an issue with him are villains. Easy to be a saint in paradise.


No, but as his childhood role model, his dad, that guy needs to have a very high moral standard, especially on teaching him to use his power for good purpose, to help others instead of stay aside when *a bus full of kids' life is in danger.*






> Tell me did his oh so perfect father set the standard for stuff like him telling people to "slap a J*p". Or do any of the crap he pulled in the Silver Age? Did Reeves' version learn it's okay to mindwipe people from his father? Between GA Superman being more Punisher with super powers, Silver Age being an unsympathetic comedy protagonist at best and post crisis having more than his share of flaws, I'm honestly wondering where this idealized view of a Superman who does no wrong even came from.


Comics could have some inconsistent points and none of these are good to speak about, we don't say Batman use guns because he does in the beginning of his comics. But the normal ordinary setting of the character.






> His point wasn't that he should have let the kids die to do bigger things. His point was that he won't be of nay help to anyone if he's always looking over his shoulder


That's basically what Superman is, are you seriously saying this was wrong, in a Superman movie?




> Jonathan Kent: Maybe; but there's more at stake here than our lives or the lives of those around us. When the world... When the world finds out what you can do, it's gonna change everything; our... our beliefs, our notions of what it means to be human... everything. *You saw how Pete's mom reacted, right? She was scared, Clark.*
> 
> Clark Kent at 13: Why?
> 
> Jonathan Kent: *People are afraid of what they don't understand.*


So instead we should let Pete's mom cry for her kid's death and drown in tear for the rest of her life, along with all those kids' parents? I'm sure Clark would be fine with it right?

People being afraid is NOT a reason to not help them, it's NOT a reason to let a bus full of kids die simply for your own safety. This is basically being selfish, don't try to find excuse for it.

----------


## Agent Z

Know what, forget it. I've said my piece. Nothing we say to each other will change our minds. I'm bowing out of this conversation before I say something I really regret

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> And i can't agree with you more. That's not what Pa Kent is. He's too different. I would say the guy is still Superman. Look at the fact, that nobody tells him to do the right thing.


Dude it's a version of Pa Kent. There's no end all be all version, and all versions have pros and cons. The Pa Kent people like so much lives in a damn fantasy land where, apparently religion, and scepticism, don't exist and everybody just accepts that people like Superman exist, no questions asked.

That is why your argument, that MoS Pa Kent is "not good, but interesting" is invalid. You need to take into account CONTEXT. You did play devil's advocate, but still refused to call it good strictly because it's not your preconceived notion of what the character is. However, your version doesn't not fit into the context that is our world.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Dude it's a version of Pa Kent. There's no end all be all version, and all versions have pros and cons. The Pa Kent people like so much lives in a damn fantasy land where, apparently religion, and scepticism, don't exist and everybody just accepts that people like Superman exist, no questions asked.
> 
> That is why your argument, that MoS Pa Kent is "not good, but interesting" is invalid. You need to take into account CONTEXT. You did play devil's advocate, but still refused to call it good strictly because it's not your preconceived notion of what the character is. However, your version doesn't not fit into the context that is our world.


And it's not what ppl want to see from a Superman movie. Superman himself is a very ideal saint, trying to put him in so called realistic setting would need someone much better than Snyder and Goyer. There are too many mines. Even Batman doesn't exist in real life because he is ideal.

We are not talking about some easy case here, but *a bus full of innocent kids' life was in great danger*, if Clark didn't save them they are all going to die. Even by ordinary standards, there should be NO question about WHAT needs to be done at all. 

Yeah ppl are going to be afraid, ppl might look after you, so it's a reason to let so many innocent lives lost and do nothing to protect yourself? Really? Really? Really?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> They have to worry about their kid's life if they try to swim down and save others, same thing here. Jonathan said maybe they should die if saving them could put Clark in danger. Do you know how low that is? They are not the only parents there, most or all that bus' kids got parents. Can you imagine what would happen to them if their kids have died?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, but as his childhood role model, his dad, that guy needs to have a very high moral standard, especially on teaching him to use his power for good purpose, to help others instead of stay aside when *a bus full of kids' life is in danger.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, maybe they should because those same people he saved might've discriminated and demonized Clark. Sure Pete didn't, but who's to say others wouldn't. If the government came to take Clark away, would any of those people step up to save him. The government would attempt to torture, and dissect his boy, to learn how he works, or use him as a national superpower.

That's a thought that ran through Jonathan's head. It's not simple. Stop all your BS grandstanding, and self-righteous. No parent that loves their child would willingly allow said child to be put in such a situation. It doesn't matter how "good" you are. 

If you love the child you raised, fed, clothed, bathed, read stories to at night, played with, stressed over when they were sick, cheered them up when they were down, etc, damn the rest of the world, you'll sacrifice any, and all to save that child, including yourself.

I live in Houston, and during Harvey there was a mother who drowned acting as a liferaft for her child. No sacrifice is to great for a child you love, in the eyes of a parent, regardless of the type of person you are.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> And it's not what ppl want to see from a Superman movie. Superman himself is a very ideal saint, trying to put him in so called realistic setting would need someone much better than Snyder and Goyer. There are too many mines. Even Batman doesn't exist in real life because he is ideal.
> 
> We are not talking about some easy case here, but *a bus full of innocent kids' life was in great danger*, if Clark didn't save them they are all going to die. Even by ordinary standards, there should be NO question about WHAT needs to be done at all. 
> 
> Yeah ppl are going to be afraid, ppl might look after you, so it's a reason to let so many innocent lives lost and do nothing to protect yourself? Really? Really? Really?


It doesn't matter who it was, because most of the complaining about MoS was:

- Pa Kent wouldn't say that
- Superman doesn't smile enough
- Superman killed someone
- Superman "destroyed" Metropolis 
- Superman shouldn't be confused about who he's supposed to be
- The movie's not colorful enough

Yes, Zack has storytelling problems, but many of those same problems are quite prevalent in the MCU. It's preconceived notions of these characters that hit MoS.

That Superman you all love so much is a much worse movie, on every level. It's a movie that makes every human, but the bad guys completely innocuous people, who automatically love Superman becuz reasons, and it did the BS Fan4stic timeskip first. The movie literally has a 12 year timeskip that just skips past all of Clark's development into the character he showed up as afterwards.

Seriously, your argument about MoS makes no sense. Superman the Movie takes place in fantasy land, fine, but MoS doesn't. Context, learn the damn word.

----------


## Soubhagya

> It doesn't matter who it was, because most of the complaining about MoS was:
> 
> - Pa Kent wouldn't say that
> - Superman doesn't smile enough
> - Superman killed someone
> - Superman "destroyed" Metropolis 
> - Superman shouldn't be confused about who he's supposed to be
> - The movie's not colorful enough
> 
> ...


Oh come on man! Just because the world of Superman The Movie does not feel real to you the film becomes  a bad film. Are Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter real worlds? You do know that there are time skips in other films. Just because a film has a time skip does not make it bad. Superman of that film is such that people trust him. And i can run with that. The film attempts to resonate with the people who have loved George Reeves or heard the radio show or read comics which were in huge numbers back then. The effort to show Superman in his prime. And it does this perfectly. The film is well acted, characters are interesting, has a good plot, story is cohesively told, and is an overall enjoyable experience. There's more to it then that. I can't see why people like Patty Jenkins praise the film but fans who adore Snyder hate it. Its okay if you hate it. Art is subjective. But at least acknowledge that it is a grounbreaking film and is quite good. Bad products in general do not resonate with people over generations.

I am not saying this to you but there are some fans of MoS who to prop up their favorite film find faults in Donner films just because they want to. Things like time skip, people trust him are external. These things do not make or break a movie. I say MoS is a fine film. Its however difficult to separate a film's quality to the preconceived ideas/notions of Superman by fans. Which is expected. Superman is loved so much by lot of people.

----------


## Outside_85

So we are arguing Johnathan Kent again.

I am aware that it's not traditional that Pa Kent serves as a heavy handbrake for Clark, in the past he just seemed to roll with it whenever Clark developed a new power or did something.
However, within the context of the movie, Clark is caught between two worlds, both of which are in a way more extreme than they normally are.
Jor-El talks about how Kal will be a god amongst humans, about how he can and should personally raise them out of the mud. Thats extreme compared to how Jor and Lara more often simply send their son away to ensure his survival.
Jonathan however now has to be the other kind of extreme to counter Jor-El's vision. Because Jonathan knows Clark, not as a god, but as his son. And he doesn't want his son to be exposed to the world before Clark and the world is actually ready for it.

Now, Jonathan knows he can't stop Clark from one day embracing his heritage. But for most of Clark's life he's tried to keep him grounded so all that power doesn't go to Clarks head. He wants to keep him human.
Now as for the schoolbus, I think Johnathan knows he is putting up a pretty crap argument with Clark, that he should perhaps have left them to drown. But I get the impression that he is also only putting it out there, because they have had this argument before whenever Clark did something a human couldn't. Thats why he answers with a half-hearted 'maybe' when asked if Clark should have left the bus. 
And this is kinda a question thats repeated in BvS during the TV montage: "Are you, as a US Senator, prepared to tell a grieving parent; Superman could have saved your child. But on principle, we did not want him to act." It's purely principle that Jonathan is protesting that Clark did something, it's not that he's ashamed or angry, he's worried that things like this will have unforeseen consequences for them all. The Senator is worried about escalation, when someone else decides to do like Superman. Jonathan is worried his family will be torn apart.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Oh come on man! Just because the world of Superman The Movie does not feel real the film becomes a bad one. Are Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter real worlds? Superman of that film is such that people trust him. And i can run with that. The film is well acted, has a good plot, story is cohesively told, and is an overall enjoyable experience. There's more to it then that. I can't see why people like Patty Jenkins praise the film but fans who adore Snyder hate it. Its okay if you hate it. Art is subjective. But at least acknowledge that it is a grounbreaking film and is quite good. Bad products in general do not resonate with people over generations.


I don't see it as groundbreaking, at all. In fact, the only groundbreaking CBMs, IMO, are TDK, Unbreakable, and Logan. Everything else is still regular, or has flaws that just them keep from that pedestal (DoFP). 

The reason I dislike Superman the Movie is because I feel everything is unearned it. You can say that it was a time where people needed a movie like that, but to say that it was a simply a world where people trusted him, and it goes no deeper than that is fine? Really? That's groundbreaking?

If the movie was in it's own bubble, and judged on it's own? Fine, whatever. However, people seem to push that, and the DCAU, on every damn thing. Using the Jonathan in that movie, and comparing him to MoS Jonathan, and saying it's a negative that he's not the same is asinine, because of they're not the same character in the same world.

The context of Superman the Movie is fantasy world, where only crooks have scepticism, and religion doesn't exist. MoS is our world, and all the BS that comes with it, only now with metahumans. 

Superman can just save the world, because international laws, and borders, have to be taken into account. There's a reason we saw DCEU Superman not involve himself in wars, or dethrone dictators. 

It's fine to like the original, but don't try to peddle that as how it "should" be. That's BS, because everything changes with context.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So we are arguing Johnathan Kent again.
> 
> I am aware that it's not traditional that Pa Kent serves as a heavy handbrake for Clark, in the past he just seemed to roll with it whenever Clark developed a new power or did something.
> However, within the context of the movie, Clark is caught between two worlds, both of which are in a way more extreme than they normally are.
> Jor-El talks about how Kal will be a god amongst humans, about how he can and should personally raise them out of the mud. Thats extreme compared to how Jor and Lara more often simply send their son away to ensure his survival.
> Jonathan however now has to be the other kind of extreme to counter Jor-El's vision. Because Jonathan knows Clark, not as a god, but as his son. And he doesn't want his son to be exposed to the world before Clark and the world is actually ready for it.
> 
> Now, Jonathan knows he can't stop Clark from one day embracing his heritage. But for most of Clark's life he's tried to keep him grounded so all that power doesn't go to Clarks head. He wants to keep him human.
> Now as for the schoolbus, I think Johnathan knows he is putting up a pretty crap argument with Clark, that he should perhaps have left them to drown. But I get the impression that he is also only putting it out there, because they have had this argument before whenever Clark did something a human couldn't. Thats why he answers with a half-hearted 'maybe' when asked if Clark should have left the bus. 
> And this is kinda a question thats repeated in BvS during the TV montage: "Are you, as a US Senator, prepared to tell a grieving parent; Superman could have saved your child. But on principle, we did not want him to act." It's purely principle that Jonathan is protesting that Clark did something, it's not that he's ashamed or angry, he's worried that things like this will have unforeseen consequences for them all. The Senator is worried about escalation, when someone else decides to do like Superman. Jonathan is worried his family will be torn apart.


Exactly. In our world, things are too complicated to just let Clark be Superman, on too many levels. Superman never involved himself with wars, or dictators, because he'd brake the balance of power. In the comics, and DCAU, Supes kinda does whatever, but those worlds arent realistic in any sense.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't see it as groundbreaking, at all. In fact, the only groundbreaking CBMs, IMO, are TDK, Unbreakable, and Logan. Everything else is still regular, or has flaws that just them keep from that pedestal (DoFP). 
> 
> The reason I dislike Superman the Movie is because I feel everything is unearned it. You can say that it was a time where people needed a movie like that, but to say that it was a simply a world where people trusted him, and it goes no deeper than that is fine? Really? That's groundbreaking?
> 
> If the movie was in it's own bubble, and judged on it's own? Fine, whatever. However, people seem to push that, and the DCAU, on every damn thing. Using the Jonathan in that movie, and comparing him to MoS Jonathan, and saying it's a negative that he's not the same is asinine, because of they're not the same character in the same world.
> 
> The context of Superman the Movie is fantasy world, where only crooks have scepticism, and religion doesn't exist. MoS is our world, and all the BS that comes with it, only now with metahumans. 
> 
> Superman can just save the world, because international laws, and borders, have to be taken into account. There's a reason we saw DCEU Superman not involve himself in wars, or dethrone dictators. 
> ...


Films like X-Men, Blade and Spider-man are more important because of these films cbms are everywhere. But one has to acknowledge something as groundbreaking just because it is. A mega budget feature film based on comic books which got spectacular success. Its not an easy job to bring a character like Santa Claus who is such a big part of one's culture and be able to satisfy everyone. It fully succeeds in its intent.

Please take note of my previous edited post. I do understand why people hate Man of Steel. Superman is not just a character. He is something special for a lot of people. People are different and just by arguments its difficult to change one's notions. Things in the matter of emotions and hearts are different from the matters of the intellect. That is also why i find it hard to enjoy MoS. I am more open to a reinterpretation. I would like it more if it succeeds in its efforts. Intent is great and powerful. But i find it lacking in its execution.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Films like X-Men, Blade and Spider-man are more important because of these films cbms are everywhere. But one has to acknowledge something as groundbreaking just because it is. A mega budget feature film based on comic books which got spectacular success. Its not an easy job to bring a character like Santa Claus who is such a big part of one's culture and be able to satisfy everyone. It fully succeeds in its intent.
> 
> Please take note of my previous edited post. I do understand why people hate Man of Steel. Superman is not just a character. He is something special for a lot of people. People are different and just by arguments its difficult to change one's notions. Things in the matter of emotions and hearts are different from the matters of the intellect. That is also why i find it hard to enjoy MoS. I am more open to a reinterpretation. I would like it more if it succeeds in its efforts. Intent is great and powerful. But i find it lacking in its execution.


The thing is that MoS was part 1 of what was originally a Superman trilogy. It only fails because:

1) This Superman never finished his arc, properly.
2) He wasn't the "traditional" Superman people were used to, nor was this the atypical Superman world. No one is used to seeing what actually happens to real people, and cities, when Superman fights an alien invasion. 

It fails to achieve what you wanted, because you wanted the Superman you're used to. At least that's how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong. I think it would've been better if we had MoS to introduce Supes as a hero, then MoS2 to show how the world reacts to him on political, religious, and ethical scales. The sequel would also deal with Clark acclimating to the life of a superhero, not being able to save everyone, seeing that people are complicated, and if it's even worth being Superman. Finally, I would've had BvS be the capper. It would be the clash of a younger hero, who's accepted his role, with all the bumps, and a storied veteran who's been broken by the burden of being a hero, and is desperately trying to do something that "matters". It'd end with Superman reigniting the hope in Batman again (but not dying in the process), and thus finally becoming that symbol he's meant to become.

That would've been a full arc, but we didn't get that.

----------


## Star_Jammer

> If you love the child you raised, fed, clothed, bathed, read stories to at night, played with, stressed over when they were sick, cheered them up when they were down, etc, damn the rest of the world, you'll sacrifice any, and all to save that child, including yourself.


You are, of course, talking about sacrificing _other_ children to "save" Clark (a bus full, to be precise), not sacrificing yourself.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> You are, of course, talking about sacrificing _other_ children to "save" Clark (a bus full, to be precise), not sacrificing yourself.


If you gave a parent the choice, most would choose their own. I don't know why people just think that wouldn't be the case. I'm not saying it'd be easy, or it would mentally scar them for life, but why would most parents choose to bury their own child, or destroy their own family, for the sake of other people that don't care about them? 

Even in the movie, Costner's acting, facially, physically, and vocally, show that he knows what he's suggesting is unthinkable, but the thought exists because it's his son, that he raised, vs kids he didn't, including those that bullied Clark. It's not like Jonathan has an obligation to other people. Also, you gotta take into consideration his experiences. Remember the story of the flood in BvS? He's already well aware that the world is unfair, and sacrifices are to be made if it means saving something important to you.

It's fine to aspire to be the best you can be, but that's not how the world works. Seriously, would you give up your own child for others? If you're as good as you pretend to be, or say you are, your answer should be "In a heartbeat."

----------


## Star_Jammer

> If you gave a parent the choice, most would choose their own. I don't know why people just think that wouldn't be the case. I'm not saying it'd be easy, or it would mentally scar them for life, but why would most parents choose to bury their own child, or destroy their own family, for the sake of other people that don't care about them? 
> 
> Even in the movie, Costner's acting, facially, physically, and vocally, show that he knows what he's suggesting is unthinkable, but the thought exists because it's his son, that he raised, vs kids he didn't, including those that bullied Clark. It's not like Jonathan has an obligation to other people. Also, you gotta take into consideration his experiences. Remember the story of the flood in BvS? He's already well aware that the world is unfair, and sacrifices are to be made if it means saving something important to you.


You might not be wrong, in that people wouldn't consider saving their own child over a bus full of others.  Whether or not everyone agrees with these singular people (because I doubt it's a unanimous decision, but that could just be me) is up for debate.  But since you were droning on about "keeping context" earlier, I felt it appropriate to remind you to do the same.

Suggesting a bus full of kids die over your own child is not the same as drowning caused by using your body as a flotation device for your child.

One is a sacrifice; the other is telling the other parents "Too bad, so sad".

----------


## Lightning Rider

> If you gave a parent the choice, most would choose their own. I don't know why people just think that wouldn't be the case. I'm not saying it'd be easy, or it would mentally scar them for life, but why would most parents choose to bury their own child, or destroy their own family, for the sake of other people that don't care about them? 
> 
> Even in the movie, Costner's acting, facially, physically, and vocally, show that he knows what he's suggesting is unthinkable, but the thought exists because it's his son, that he raised, vs kids he didn't, including those that bullied Clark. It's not like Jonathan has an obligation to other people. Also, you gotta take into consideration his experiences. Remember the story of the flood in BvS? He's already well aware that the world is unfair, and sacrifices are to be made if it means saving something important to you.
> 
> It's fine to aspire to be the best you can be, but that's not how the world works. Seriously, would you give up your own child for others? If you're as good as you pretend to be, or say you are, your answer should be "In a heartbeat."


Yeah I think it's only natural to expect a parent to value their own child over the lives of several strangers, as unpleasant as the idea of such a choice might be.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> You might not be wrong, in that people wouldn't consider saving their own child over a bus full of others.  Whether or not everyone agrees with these singular people (because I doubt it's a unanimous decision, but that could just be me) is up for debate.  But since you were droning on about "keeping context" earlier, I felt it appropriate to remind you to do the same.
> 
> Suggesting a bus full of kids die over your own child is not the same as drowning caused by using your body as a flotation device for your child.
> 
> One is a sacrifice; the other is telling the other parents "Too bad, so sad".


Both act as sacrifice, and both for the wellbeing for their child.

The context is that Clark is his child, and the other kids on the bus aren't. Bringing up the other children, and their parents, doesn't change that. Even if you were willing to throw your child to the wolves, without hesitation, it doesn't change the fact that you would be in the minority.

----------


## Star_Jammer

> Both act as sacrifice, and both for the wellbeing for their child.
> 
> The context is that Clark is his child, and the other kids on the bus aren't. Bringing up the other children, and their parents, doesn't change that. Even if you were willing to throw your child to the wolves, without hesitation, it doesn't change the fact that you would be in the minority.


John sacrifices nothing if Clark had just let the bus sink (remember, the drowning kids _aren't his_).  This false equivalency/appeal to emotion, comparing it to a real sacrifice of a parent saving their child, is almost gross.   :Frown:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> John sacrifices nothing if Clark had just let the bus sink (remember, the drowning kids _aren't his_).  This false equivalency/appeal to emotion, comparing it to a real sacrifice of a parent saving their child, is almost gross.


The sacrifice in this example would be the potential of losing Clark to the government had the fear and worry of their community in the wake of him saving the bus led to that.

----------


## Star_Jammer

> The sacrifice in this example would be the potential of losing Clark to the government had the fear and worry of their community in the wake of him saving the bus led to that.


And the comparison made was that "parents will sacrifice anything to save their child".

John sacrificed nothing to save Clark.

"Parents will do anything to save their child"?  Sure, that's more appropriate.  And not always noble or unselfish.

----------


## Username taken

> Yeah I think it's only natural to expect a parent to value their own child over the lives of several strangers, as unpleasant as the idea of such a choice might be.


I have two kids, if my child had Superman powers and had the choice to save kids and risk "revealing" himself to the world, I'd encourage him to save them.

The "revelation" can be "dealt" with, children's lives can't. While I understand Pa Kent's reasoning in MOS, the entire scene should have been executed with a little more tact.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Jonathan being depicted like this in MoS makes him seem very much human. Clark being able to take the philosophies of both his sets of parents, and make his own decisions, makes his choice to be a hero have more weight. It means more that he choose to be a hero, despite all odds, even the people he saves, than him being a good person because it's easy, and everybody is cheering him on. Why people want the basic story, is beyond me.

That said, MoS on his own doesn't do that as it's really a part 1. It needed an actual sequel to continue Superman's arc as a character.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I have two kids, if my child had Superman powers and had the choice to save kids and risk "revealing" himself to the world, I'd encourage him to save them.
> 
> The "revelation" can be "dealt" with, children's lives can't. While I understand Pa Kent's reasoning in MOS, the entire scene should have been executed with a little more tact.


That's fine for you, but if the negative reaction occurred would you feel the same? 

Regardless of that, what do you mean "more tact"? They were talking about letting a bus full of kids potentially all drown...how can that conversation be had with tact?

Also, mind you, I'm not saying that what I argue is justified. It'd still be horrible. I can honestly say that I don't know what I'd do, but I don't have kids; I can only go by how the parents I've observed act. Hell, corporal punishment is now taboo because how it can effect children, so something like sacrificing one's own child makes little sense.

----------


## Username taken

> And the comparison made was that "parents will sacrifice anything to save their child".
> 
> John sacrificed nothing to save Clark.
> 
> "Parents will do anything to save their child"?  Sure, that's more appropriate.  And not always noble or unselfish.


Exactly.

I know there are parents on this forum (as am I)and most parents respond very viscerally at the thought of children dying.

They would actually do A LOT to prevent children dying and I doubt many would have a problem with their child saving his/her colleagues.

Most people aren’t that callous in real life. Again, I understand what Snyder were trying to get across but it just wasn’t well executed,that’s probably why people are still talking about it today.

----------


## Star_Jammer

Of course, Pa Kent did sacrifice himself to save the family dog.

One has to wonder if he wasn't just a suicidal nihilist.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Exactly.
> 
> I know there are parents on this forum (as am I)and most parents respond very viscerally at the thought of children dying.
> 
> They would actually do A LOT to prevent children dying and I doubt many would have a problem with their child saving his/her colleagues.
> 
> Most people aren’t that callous in real life. Again, I understand what Snyder were trying to get across but it just wasn’t well executed,that’s probably why people are still talking about it today.


The thing is, this is a tough choice. I think people only get riled up because Clark is an idealized aspiration, and, in a lot of interpretations, Jonathan is a big part of that part of Clark. Still, in the movie, its not like Jonathan said dont save people, ever, he just wanted to prioritize his kids safety. 

Even Martha feels the same way, but that doesn't stop her from being proud of her son, and supporting him in his decisions. Tho, another disappointment in JL was not seeing Martha be against her son just rushing out to be a hero again. Maybe it can be brought up later, but she just got her boy back.

----------


## Username taken

> That's fine for you, but if the negative reaction occurred would you feel the same? 
> 
> Regardless of that, what do you mean "more tact"? They were talking about letting a bus full of kids potentially all drown...how can that conversation be had with tact?
> 
> Also, mind you, I'm not saying that what I argue is justified. It'd still be horrible. I can honestly say that I don't know what I'd do, but I don't have kids; I can only go by how the parents I've observed act. Hell, corporal punishment is now taboo because how it can effect children, *so something like sacrificing one's own child makes little se*nse.


He's* not sacrificing* Clark, that's the problem with the scene. There was a *possibility* of him being revealed and facing possible consequences as opposed to children *definitely* drowning to death. 

When I say tact, I wasn't referring to the drowning scene, I was talking about the exchange between Clark and Pa Kent afterwards.

Honestly, I feel Man of Steel gets an unnecessarily bad wrap but there was some stuff in the movie that was just....weird.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Of course, Pa Kent did sacrifice himself to save the family dog.
> 
> One has to wonder if he wasn't just a suicidal nihilist.


Dude, it's obvious he didn't want Clark to use his powers in front of a group of people. He saved the dog, but only died because he wanted his son to stay an unknown. If hes gonna be saving people, he doesnt need his identity to be known by dozens of strangers.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> He's* not sacrificing* Clark, that's the problem with the scene. There was a *possibility* of him being revealed and facing possible consequences as opposed to children *definitely* drowning to death. 
> 
> When I say tact, I wasn't referring to the drowning scene, I was talking about the exchange between Clark and Pa Kent afterwards.
> 
> Honestly, I feel Man of Steel gets an unnecessarily bad wrap but there was some stuff in the movie that was just....weird.


Well, if his son is now obligated to save others, regardless of the danger, than it's similar. Tho I do get your point that, Jonathan is thinking of extremes.

In regards to the conversation, I guess I kinda like how awkward it is.

----------


## Username taken

> Well, if his son is now obligated to save others, regardless of the danger, than it's similar. Tho I do get your point that, Jonathan is thinking of extremes.
> 
> In regards to the conversation, I guess I kinda like how awkward it is.


Oh no doubt, most tense parent/son discussions (especially after major sh!t) are VERY awkward.

It was the "extremity" that gave me pause.

----------


## Soubhagya

> The thing is that MoS was part 1 of what was originally a Superman trilogy. It only fails because:
> 
> 1) This Superman never finished his arc, properly.
> 2) He wasn't the "traditional" Superman people were used to, nor was this the atypical Superman world. No one is used to seeing what actually happens to real people, and cities, when Superman fights an alien invasion. 
> 
> It fails to achieve what you wanted, because you wanted the Superman you're used to. At least that's how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong. I think it would've been better if we had MoS to introduce Supes as a hero, then MoS2 to show how the world reacts to him on political, religious, and ethical scales. The sequel would also deal with Clark acclimating to the life of a superhero, not being able to save everyone, seeing that people are complicated, and if it's even worth being Superman. Finally, I would've had BvS be the capper. It would be the clash of a younger hero, who's accepted his role, with all the bumps, and a storied veteran who's been broken by the burden of being a hero, and is desperately trying to do something that "matters". It'd end with Superman reigniting the hope in Batman again (but not dying in the process), and thus finally becoming that symbol he's meant to become.
> 
> That would've been a full arc, but we didn't get that.


I agree about the trilogy.This is what i wanted. I am angry to be deprived of it. There is no problem with the story of MoS. In fact, it is chock full of nice ideas and wonderful themes. By rushing  WB destroyed everything.

I have to admit a few things. I did not grow up with Reeve's films. I still haven't watched Superman 2's theatrical cut and Part 3 and so on. I did love Superman TAS and JL/JLU. Those two and Superman Returns were the only stuff i  watched before MoS. Tbh i was not bothered by anything in MoS. However, I did find the first viewing to be boring. I loved the action sequences only and the ending.

The thing with Snyder's Superman films are they reward repeat viewings. When i watched MoS again i could get to an extent what Zack Snyder was trying to do. Its bold. And its impressive. One is forced to admire the film. Repeat viewings made me like it. But i can't love it. For me the flaws stop me from enjoying it. And then i watched Superman The Movie. My mind was blown. I am truly impressed by the film. Yes its true that the character Superman is not as interesting as Man of Steel. But man he makes it up with the fact that he is Superman. When he says that he fights for truth, justice and the american way i was totally satisfied. Are there not such principled persons who try to help people? There are heroes among us hiding in plain sight. Whether it is the doctor who does one's duty instead of exploiting the patient, whether its the cop who does his duty as a service or parents who give up their own comforts for their children. 

There were people like Mother Teresa and Mandela in this world. And such selfless people still exist. They are an anomaly. A contrast to the cruel and self-destructive world around us. Just as Superman, whether he exists in 1938 or in 2017. He is too good for the world around him. I love this interpretation.

Apart from a few exceptions, i am open to different interpretations. I would have loved it had the film done its job well. For instance, i have always defended the destruction of Metropolis. The blame lies on the Zod's army. Superman fought to the best of his ability to save everyone. He was simply outmatched. Its fine. But the film ends abruptly. Where is that catharsis? They were trying 9/11 imagery. Its totally fine. But weren't there heroes who were among us who stood up to the tragedy. The firemen, the doctors, even the people who helped out the bystanders and the injured. There was an excellent scene of Perry and Lombard trying to save Jenny. But why didn't they show Superman helping out the people at the aftermath of killing Zod? The film ends as if it does not know what to do next. Such a scene which would take about five minutes or so would really help the film.

The film is full of such things. Good ideas but flawed execution. I have said it before and i repeat it now. MoS is really interesting. Its a film that gets better. I wanted a proper Man of Steel sequel. I love almost all of the cast. Sadly, it looks like this is it. A missed opportunity to redefine Superman for this age. Undoubtedly, i love Superman the Movie. Its Superman in his prime. I agree about the time skip. It is odd that everything he has to learn is from the Fortress. Its not interesting but works within the context of the film. 

There lies the difference. Superman The Movie does what it tries to achieve. And it does it in style. Its a film which can be appreciated if one enters with a mindset akin to a child. Notice, the subtle use of a kid's narration to begin the film. It is a shorthand and allows the viewer to get used to it. A film which by all definition is a comic book movie.

----------


## Star_Jammer

> Dude, it's obvious he didn't want Clark to use his powers in front of a group of people. He saved the dog, but only died because he wanted his son to stay an unknown. If hes gonna be saving people, he doesnt need his identity to be known by dozens of strangers.


Sure.

And because he was able to convince Clark that not saving a bus full of children was a perfectly reasonable choice, Pa Kent helped ensure that when his own time came, John could have Clark not think twice about save him.

It was his master plan all along.

----------


## Darkseid Is

This was one of my problems with Man of Steel... but how did we come to this topic? haha Is it a slow week for DCEU news? I guess that and not being able to spoil JL. Loving reading these opinions.

----------


## Carabas

> There were people like Mother Teresa and Mandela in this world. And such selfless people still exist.


I really wouldn't put Teresa there. Winding up in her hospitals was not good thing generally speaking. She's from the old "suffering is really good for the soul" school of catholicism.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I really wouldn't put Teresa there. Winding up in her hospitals was not good thing generally speaking. She's from the old "suffering is really good for the soul" school of catholicism.


Okay i went with an example which appeared right at the top of my head. Just look at this that Superman is too good for the world around him. I prefer this type of Superman.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the actual quality of the DCEU movies, because those discussions have been going on for years and stuff has been repeated ad nauseam.

But I do want to say one thing. 

Cynicism should not be mistaken for realism. Moral ambiguity does not mean something is necessarily more realistic than moral certainty.

Malala Yousafzai's parents have been supportive of her activism, even after repeated death threats and an assassination attempt where she was nearly killed. There are parents that will support the choices their children make, even if it means risking losing them. 

With the Jonathan Kent situation, you could argue that it's the more probable response a parent would have but defending it and justifying on the grounds of it been a realistic alternative, as if no parent would realistically respond supportively to what had happened. That's just being cynical.

Was it realistic for Jonathan Kent to respond the way he did? Sure.

Would it also have been realistic if he had been supportive of what Clark did and not included the possibility of letting kids die as a viable course of action? Yes.

----------


## C_haos

If the JL movie had the same lineup as the original 2003 cartoon. Would the box office had been better?

----------


## Username taken

> I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the actual quality of the DCEU movies, because those discussions have been going on for years and stuff has been repeated ad nauseam.
> 
> But I do want to say one thing. 
> 
> Cynicism should not be mistaken for realism. Moral ambiguity does not mean something is necessarily more realistic than moral certainty.
> 
> Malala Yousafzai's parents have been supportive of her activism, even after repeated death threats and an assassination attempt where she was nearly killed. There are parents that will support the choices their children make, even if it means risking losing them. 
> 
> With the Jonathan Kent situation, you could argue that it's the more probable response a parent would have but defending it and justifying on the grounds of it been a realistic alternative, as if no parent would realistically respond supportively to what had happened. That's just being cynical.
> ...


Quoted for truth.

----------


## Carabas

> If the JL movie had the same lineup as the original 2003 cartoon. Would the box office had been better?


With everything else being equal? I doubt it.
Might even have been a bigger mess because that is one more main character that needs attention.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the actual quality of the DCEU movies, because those discussions have been going on for years and stuff has been repeated ad nauseam.
> 
> But I do want to say one thing. 
> 
> Cynicism should not be mistaken for realism. Moral ambiguity does not mean something is necessarily more realistic than moral certainty.
> 
> Malala Yousafzai's parents have been supportive of her activism, even after repeated death threats and an assassination attempt where she was nearly killed. There are parents that will support the choices their children make, even if it means risking losing them. 
> 
> With the Jonathan Kent situation, you could argue that it's the more probable response a parent would have but defending it and justifying on the grounds of it been a realistic alternative, as if no parent would realistically respond supportively to what had happened. That's just being cynical.
> ...


This.  So. Much.

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the actual quality of the DCEU movies, because those discussions have been going on for years and stuff has been repeated ad nauseam.
> 
> But I do want to say one thing. 
> 
> Cynicism should not be mistaken for realism. Moral ambiguity does not mean something is necessarily more realistic than moral certainty.
> 
> Malala Yousafzai's parents have been supportive of her activism, even after repeated death threats and an assassination attempt where she was nearly killed. There are parents that will support the choices their children make, even if it means risking losing them. 
> 
> With the Jonathan Kent situation, you could argue that it's the more probable response a parent would have but defending it and justifying on the grounds of it been a realistic alternative, as if no parent would realistically respond supportively to what had happened. That's just being cynical.
> ...


I don't think anyone's claiming that Jonathan responding in the opposite way is unrealistic. Just that his response isn't unbelievable either. Nor does it make him the monster posters have accused him of being

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't think anyone's claiming that Jonathan responding in the opposite way is unrealistic. Just that his response isn't unbelievable either. Nor does it make him the monster posters have accused him of being


Yep. 

I have no problem with people saying they would have preferred a different take on Jonathan Kent. 

What pisses me off is when people claim that Jonathan's actions make him a monster. Heck, I've encountered people who have flat-out declared that Jonathan's efforts to protect his son qualify as straight-up psychological abuse.

----------


## Bossace

Justice League director Zack Snyder's son hits out at Warner Bros for "meddling"

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/jus...bros-meddling/

"I did enjoy the movie, although it is clearly not what it could have been due to the meddling of Warner Brothers and the forced comedy," he wrote on social media

"The runtime was my biggest gripe with the movie, with events that should take a long time over in a flash.

"But still definitely a fun movie to watch, and would recommend it."

----------


## Bossace

Box office update:
 JL made 8.425 on thanksgiving now projected to have around a 55 million dollar 5 day weekend which is down from the 65 million projection a few days ago.

Coco did 8.9 million is now projected up again to do 75 million.

Domestic 7 day total 130.8 million

Other DCEU 7 day total:

Wonder Woman: 147.8 million
Suicide Squad: 179.1 million
BVS: 209 million
MOS: 156 million

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Funny how the topic of Pa Kent has come up again, because my friend and I just completed watching Man of Steel yesterday. He's really not that big of a fan of superhero movies in general (not saying he hates them, but doesn't have much stock if them if you will, and really has no bias to DC or Marvel). He rated it a five out of ten, and really liked the acting, the cinematography and the CGI (said it was "immaculate"). Now he didn't go around saying stuff like "Superman doesn't smile!" or anything like that, but the scene with Pa Ken and young Clark we're talking about did stick out to him (also keep in mind that before we started watching it, I didn't tell him my opinion of the film and it's little details, and I don't think I've ever told him about, and if I did, he wouldn't remember it because he doesn't pay much attention to such things).

To paraphrase him, he pointed out that he didn't like how Pa Kent's statements are made to make Clark feel special (in the sense that his safety is above all, not that he isn't special to his parents). Yes he's an alien, but there are 7 billion people on Earth and if he to be among them, he might as well understand he is not above them. Instilling the values in him at that age felt wrong to him. He also said that he found it absolutely baffling that Pa Kent's reaction to Clark's (rhetorical) question was that of uncertainty. That no parent needs to think about it in their minds or hesitate to point out that if the lives of people are in danger and you can do something about it, you should. He then said supposing Clark didn't save the kids because he knew people would have thought it was strange that he lifted up an entire bus. He would be the only survivor perhaps, and if not, some kids would have probably drowned. Is it better that he at such a young age be left with survivor's guilt? What's Pa Kent now supposed to say when Clark comes up to him and says he didn't do anything because he didn't want to get caught? Funny enough, he didn't have a problem with the tornado scene, and thought it was touching (even though I hate it and explained to him why).

For me, the entire order of the scenes is the problem. If I were to fix it, this is what I would have done:

Start off with something less grave and serious, like the Kents doing some family shopping at a grocery store. While Martha is trying to pack some stuff in a bag or reach for something, she either slips or knocks off something by accident. Clark then uses his superior reaction time and speed to stop Martha from falling or to catch the object(s). While he doesn't get caught, Jonathan warns him sternly about using his powers in public. Clark does protest, insisting he just wants to help, and Martha tries to tell Jonathan it's not a big deal, Pa Kent is still firm in his stance. Clark eventually accepts what he is told, though still quite upset. The scene can end there.

The next scene would be the school bus scene and it'll play out exactly as it does in the film. However the next scene is where I would make the change. When Pa Kent goes to talk to Clark, he can see his son is visibly upset and on the verge of tears, because he knows he disobeyed his father. He starts off by saying he's sorry and other words start coming out as he cries, but Pa Kent instead cuts him off by hugging him, telling him he did the right thing. The camera pans from Clark's crying face, to Jonathan, who though is comforting his son, expresses a little bit of uncertainty and fear in his face. You can even follow up that scene with Jonathan showing Clark where he really comes from, though it might defeat the purpose.

Now of course this is just my opinion, but I think with this they could have conveyed a clearer and less divisive message. You establish that Clark has already developed the need to save people from the little things to the big things: From slipping in a grocery store to drowning in a school bus. Second, you've established Pa Kent's fear of the world seeing what Clark can do and how they would react, but you've put it in a scene that doesn't deal with death or multiple deaths, therefore it doesn't seem as though he is discouraging Clark from saving people's lives, or putting his life above others. Third, Pa Kent clearly shows it in his face that he's afraid of what people would think, but still tells Clark he did the right thing because he is a father protecting his son from the harsh realities of life. Fourth, we have a little bit of Martha side on the whole thing.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yes, maybe they should because those same people he saved might've discriminated and demonized Clark. Sure Pete didn't, but who's to say others wouldn't. If the government came to take Clark away, would any of those people step up to save him. The government would attempt to torture, and dissect his boy, to learn how he works, or use him as a national superpower.
> 
> That's a thought that ran through Jonathan's head. It's not simple. Stop all your BS grandstanding, and self-righteous. No parent that loves their child would willingly allow said child to be put in such a situation. It doesn't matter how "good" you are. 
> 
> If you love the child you raised, fed, clothed, bathed, read stories to at night, played with, stressed over when they were sick, cheered them up when they were down, etc, damn the rest of the world, you'll sacrifice any, and all to save that child, including yourself.
> 
> I live in Houston, and during Harvey there was a mother who drowned acting as a liferaft for her child. No sacrifice is to great for a child you love, in the eyes of a parent, regardless of the type of person you are.


So what? Simply because they might dislike you, you can let these innocent kids die without doing anything? Do you even understand horrible it was?

I will sacrifice everything of me for my loved one, but others' lives? No, and I'm sure that's not something Superman's dad would do.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Justice League director Zack Snyder's son hits out at Warner Bros for "meddling"
> 
> http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/jus...bros-meddling/
> 
> "I did enjoy the movie, although it is clearly not what it could have been due to the meddling of Warner Brothers and the forced comedy," he wrote on social media
> 
> "The runtime was my biggest gripe with the movie, with events that should take a long time over in a flash.
> 
> "But still definitely a fun movie to watch, and would recommend it."


That Batman quip about something definitely bleeding, so out of place, out of character and the cringest moment of the entire film, that 100% has to be Whedon. Gtfo WB.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Box office update:
>  JL made 8.425 on thanksgiving now projected to have around a 55 million dollar 5 day weekend which is down from the 65 million projection a few days ago.
> 
> Coco did 8.9 million is now projected up again to do 75 million.
> 
> Domestic 7 day total 130.8 million
> 
> Other DCEU 7 day total:
> 
> ...


Ouch. It isn't as bad a drop off as BvS  had from week 1 to week two...But that's little comfort given how it opened.it doesn't seem to be gaining legs and that's bad.
It's only chance is it holds on and gains legs overseas. Otherwise it's done.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> So we are arguing Johnathan Kent again.
> 
> I am aware that it's not traditional that Pa Kent serves as a heavy handbrake for Clark, in the past he just seemed to roll with it whenever Clark developed a new power or did something.
> However, within the context of the movie, Clark is caught between two worlds, both of which are in a way more extreme than they normally are.
> Jor-El talks about how Kal will be a god amongst humans, about how he can and should personally raise them out of the mud. Thats extreme compared to how Jor and Lara more often simply send their son away to ensure his survival.
> Jonathan however now has to be the other kind of extreme to counter Jor-El's vision. Because Jonathan knows Clark, not as a god, but as his son. And he doesn't want his son to be exposed to the world before Clark and the world is actually ready for it.
> 
> Now, Jonathan knows he can't stop Clark from one day embracing his heritage. But for most of Clark's life he's tried to keep him grounded so all that power doesn't go to Clarks head. He wants to keep him human.
> Now as for the schoolbus, I think Johnathan knows he is putting up a pretty crap argument with Clark, that he should perhaps have left them to drown. But I get the impression that he is also only putting it out there, because they have had this argument before whenever Clark did something a human couldn't. Thats why he answers with a half-hearted 'maybe' when asked if Clark should have left the bus. 
> And this is kinda a question thats repeated in BvS during the TV montage: "Are you, as a US Senator, prepared to tell a grieving parent; Superman could have saved your child. But on principle, we did not want him to act." It's purely principle that Jonathan is protesting that Clark did something, it's not that he's ashamed or angry, he's worried that things like this will have unforeseen consequences for them all. The Senator is worried about escalation, when someone else decides to do like Superman. Jonathan is worried his family will be torn apart.


Clark couldn't become Superman, if his dad, his role model always asks him to hide his power even at the cost of others' lives.

The "Maybe" is already very low by normal standards, not to say the dad of Superman.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...98052608126982

More deleted stuff... Screw WB. Screw WB. Screw WB. 

Supposed to see it with more friends again tomorrow... Really don't wanna... But there are still a tonne of cool things in the film. I Guess.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the actual quality of the DCEU movies, because those discussions have been going on for years and stuff has been repeated ad nauseam.
> 
> But I do want to say one thing. 
> 
> Cynicism should not be mistaken for realism. Moral ambiguity does not mean something is necessarily more realistic than moral certainty.
> 
> Malala Yousafzai's parents have been supportive of her activism, even after repeated death threats and an assassination attempt where she was nearly killed. There are parents that will support the choices their children make, even if it means risking losing them. 
> 
> With the Jonathan Kent situation, you could argue that it's the more probable response a parent would have but defending it and justifying on the grounds of it been a realistic alternative, as if no parent would realistically respond supportively to what had happened. That's just being cynical.
> ...


We are talking about Superman, the most kindhearted superhero's dad and role model. Of course we would be expecting a noble Pa Kent. 

DCEU's Superman is also a saint.

----------


## jertz666

> He's* not sacrificing* Clark, that's the problem with the scene. There was a *possibility* of him being revealed and facing possible consequences as opposed to children *definitely* drowning to death. 
> 
> When I say tact, I wasn't referring to the drowning scene, I was talking about the exchange between Clark and Pa Kent afterwards.
> 
> Honestly, I feel Man of Steel gets an unnecessarily bad wrap but there was some stuff in the movie that was just....weird.


Exactly.   There's a fundamental imbalance in the outcome:  Death of a busload of children or possible loss of one's privacy/secret.  Frankly, even if it's a *definite* loss of one's privacy or secret --  by most moral standards --  one should/would still save the kids.   The media would brand one as "evil" or "depraved" if he or she let those kids die just to keep a secret.

Maybe it would be better this way:   13 year old Clark asks "What was I supposed to do? Just let em die?",  Jonathan opens his mouth to say something ... looks a little confused and stymied... then closes his mouth and says nothing at all.   By this point, the point would be clear :  Clark should try to keep his secret but, like many things in life, there are tough questions  with no easy answers.   The actual answer we got  -- a "maybe" followed by some vague justification of people being afraid of what they don't understand -- is too hokey and nebulous to let a busload of kids die.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the actual quality of the DCEU movies, because those discussions have been going on for years and stuff has been repeated ad nauseam.
> 
> But I do want to say one thing. 
> 
> Cynicism should not be mistaken for realism. Moral ambiguity does not mean something is necessarily more realistic than moral certainty.
> 
> Malala Yousafzai's parents have been supportive of her activism, even after repeated death threats and an assassination attempt where she was nearly killed. There are parents that will support the choices their children make, even if it means risking losing them. 
> 
> With the Jonathan Kent situation, you could argue that it's the more probable response a parent would have but defending it and justifying on the grounds of it been a realistic alternative, as if no parent would realistically respond supportively to what had happened. That's just being cynical.
> ...


Lol, yeah, just forget how Martha still supported Clark being Superman for people that hated him, despite thinking along the same line as Jonathan.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't think anyone's claiming that Jonathan responding in the opposite way is unrealistic. Just that his response isn't unbelievable either. Nor does it make him the monster posters have accused him of being


Yup. Don't get why they can't fathom this.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So what? Simply because they might dislike you, you can let these innocent kids die without doing anything? Do you even understand horrible it was?
> 
> I will sacrifice everything of me for my loved one, but others' lives? No, and I'm sure that's not something Superman's dad would do.


Dang, I didn't know discrimination could only stop at people being mean, and disliking you. There's no way it could go further than that, I mean they're only human. Then there's the government, who would never think of seeing him as a threat, and lock him away.

Yup.

"That's not something Superman's dad would do"...that doesn't mean anything. It depends on the interpretation. Not to mention, not every hero grew up in a virtuous home. Iceman is a great example.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Funny how the topic of Pa Kent has come up again, because my friend and I just completed watching Man of Steel yesterday. He's really not that big of a fan of superhero movies in general (not saying he hates them, but doesn't have much stock if them if you will, and really has no bias to DC or Marvel). He rated it a five out of ten, and really liked the acting, the cinematography and the CGI (said it was "immaculate"). Now he didn't go around saying stuff like "Superman doesn't smile!" or anything like that, but the scene with Pa Ken and young Clark we're talking about did stick out to him (also keep in mind that before we started watching it, I didn't tell him my opinion of the film and it's little details, and I don't think I've ever told him about, and if I did, he wouldn't remember it because he doesn't pay much attention to such things).
> 
> To paraphrase him, he pointed out that he didn't like how Pa Kent's statements are made to make Clark feel special (in the sense that his safety is above all, not that he isn't special to his parents). Yes he's an alien, but there are 7 billion people on Earth and if he to be among them, he might as well understand he is not above them. Instilling the values in him at that age felt wrong to him. He also said that he found it absolutely baffling that Pa Kent's reaction to Clark's (rhetorical) question was that of uncertainty. That no parent needs to think about it in their minds or hesitate to point out that if the lives of people are in danger and you can do something about it, you should. He then said supposing Clark didn't save the kids because he knew people would have thought it was strange that he lifted up an entire bus. He would be the only survivor perhaps, and if not, some kids would have probably drowned. Is it better that he at such a young age be left with survivor's guilt? What's Pa Kent now supposed to say when Clark comes up to him and says he didn't do anything because he didn't want to get caught? Funny enough, he didn't have a problem with the tornado scene, and thought it was touching (even though I hate it and explained to him why).
> 
> For me, the entire order of the scenes is the problem. If I were to fix it, this is what I would have done:
> 
> Start off with something less grave and serious, like the Kents doing some family shopping at a grocery store. While Martha is trying to pack some stuff in a bag or reach for something, she either slips or knocks off something by accident. Clark then uses his superior reaction time and speed to stop Martha from falling or to catch the object(s). While he doesn't get caught, Jonathan warns him sternly about using his powers in public. Clark does protest, insisting he just wants to help, and Martha tries to tell Jonathan it's not a big deal, Pa Kent is still firm in his stance. Clark eventually accepts what he is told, though still quite upset. The scene can end there.
> 
> The next scene would be the school bus scene and it'll play out exactly as it does in the film. However the next scene is where I would make the change. When Pa Kent goes to talk to Clark, he can see his son is visibly upset and on the verge of tears, because he knows he disobeyed his father. He starts off by saying he's sorry and other words start coming out as he cries, but Pa Kent instead cuts him off by hugging him, telling him he did the right thing. The camera pans from Clark's crying face, to Jonathan, who though is comforting his son, expresses a little bit of uncertainty and fear in his face. You can even follow up that scene with Jonathan showing Clark where he really comes from, though it might defeat the purpose.
> ...


I like the fact that he told Clark how things are. Clark changes everything about the way we see things, and  history has shoiwn us how terrible humans can be when faced with something different. Clark isn't just different tho, he's basically a god. 

Everyone wants the safe route, but I guess the fact that it's controversial makes that scene a success. This makes Jonathan, and Martha, more complicated, and complex, characters. At the same time, if Jonathan lived to see his son become Superman, nothing suggests he wouldn't support Clark.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Clark couldn't become Superman, if his dad, his role model always asks him to hide his power even at the cost of others' lives.
> 
> The "Maybe" is already very low by normal standards, not to say the dad of Superman.


He couldn't become Superman because some stuff his daddy told him as a kid? That's not true at all.

People have much more choice in life than that, especially someone so very exceptional ala Superman. Clark is his own man and can make his own way in the world. Jonathan Kent having reservations about what the US government would do to his uber powerful *alien* son, is realistic.

A parent thinks first of the safety of their child. Clark might grow up to champion the oppressed and save the world countless times, but his father (a poor farmer from rural America) would simply think of what is best for his little boy growing up. What will keep Clark safe, when he's not around to help anymore. The only thing he can logically think of is "keep this a secret". It's Clark's job to decide what he wants to do as a grown man.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> He couldn't become Superman because some stuff his daddy told him as a kid? That's not true at all.
> 
> People have much more choice in life than that, especially someone so very exceptional ala Superman. Clark is his own man and can make his own way in the world. Jonathan Kent having reservations about what the US government would do to his uber powerful *alien* son, is realistic.
> 
> A parent thinks first of the safety of their child. Clark might grow up to champion the oppressed and save the world countless times, but his father (a poor farmer from rural America) would simply think of what is best for his little boy growing up. What will keep Clark safe, when he's not around to help anymore. The only thing he can logically think of is "keep this a secret". It's Clark's job to decide what he wants to do as a grown man.


Which is basically what Jonathan said. Makes sense to me.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Ahh it's that Jonathan Kent time of the year again I see!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Ahh it's that Jonathan Kent time of the year again I see!


It's like Christmas!  :Wink:

----------


## Lightning Rider

Aquaman set photo



Tell me that isn't inspired by Murk's armor in the recent Rebirth run?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Exactly.   There's a fundamental imbalance in the outcome:  Death of a busload of children or possible loss of one's privacy/secret.  Frankly, even if it's a *definite* loss of one's privacy or secret --  by most moral standards --  one should/would still save the kids.   The media would brand one as "evil" or "depraved" if he or she let those kids die just to keep a secret.
> 
> Maybe it would be better this way:   13 year old Clark asks "What was I supposed to do? Just let ’em die?",  Jonathan opens his mouth to say something ... looks a little confused and stymied... then closes his mouth and says nothing at all.   By this point, the point would be clear :  Clark should try to keep his secret but, like many things in life, there are tough questions  with no easy answers.   The actual answer we got  -- a "maybe" followed by some vague justification of people being afraid of what they don't understand -- is too hokey and nebulous to let a busload of kids die.


Better way, instead of asking Clark to hide himself

Jonathan: I'm so proud of you, son. Not just the power you've shown, but the courage and kindness you've got. Those kids are safe because of your heroic action. Just remember you also need be careful because some people might be afraid if they discover your power, but never hesitate when they need your help.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He couldn't become Superman because some stuff his daddy told him as a kid? That's not true at all.
> 
> People have much more choice in life than that, especially someone so very exceptional ala Superman. Clark is his own man and can make his own way in the world. Jonathan Kent having reservations about what the US government would do to his uber powerful *alien* son, is realistic.
> 
> A parent thinks first of the safety of their child. Clark might grow up to champion the oppressed and save the world countless times, but his father (a poor farmer from rural America) would simply think of what is best for his little boy growing up. What will keep Clark safe, when he's not around to help anymore. The only thing he can logically think of is "keep this a secret". It's Clark's job to decide what he wants to do as a grown man.


He couldn't have become Superman if his childhood role model is so low on morality. Imagine if someone like Darkseid had found Kal El, what kind of person would Kal El have become?

His father would worry about his safety, but at nowhere close to let a bus of kids die. His father should also be proud of what Clark have done and encourage him to use his power for good purpose.  This is the Pa Kent we know and want to see.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> He couldn't have become Superman if his childhood role model is so low on morality. Imagine if someone like Darkseid had found Kal El, what kind of person would Kal El have become?
> 
> His father would worry about his safety, but at nowhere close to let a bus of kids die. His father should also be proud of what Clark have done and encourage him to use his power for good purpose.  This is the Pa Kent we know and want to see.


Are you actually drawing the parallel between MOS Jonathan Kent and Darkseid? If you are...Yikes.

----------


## Frontier

> Aquaman set photo
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me that isn't inspired by Murk's armor in the recent Rebirth run?


I'm guessing Arthur nabs some Atlantean guards armor to blend in.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Are you actually drawing the parallel between MOS Jonathan Kent and Darkseid? If you are...Yikes.


I'm just using Darkseid for easily understandable example. _Gods and Monsters_ showed us Darkseid might not be a bad dad sometimes.


Superman is always eager to help people regardless of how they react to him or could it bring him danger/trouble. This is what made him so lovely. And it doesn't come from nowhere, Jonathan Kent as his dad should be the role model of him. If he was such a selfish low individual, I don't see how Superman could become the nicest among the superheroes.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Funny how the topic of Pa Kent has come up again, because my friend and I just completed watching Man of Steel yesterday. He's really not that big of a fan of superhero movies in general (not saying he hates them, but doesn't have much stock if them if you will, and really has no bias to DC or Marvel). He rated it a five out of ten, and really liked the acting, the cinematography and the CGI (said it was "immaculate"). Now he didn't go around saying stuff like "Superman doesn't smile!" or anything like that, but the scene with Pa Ken and young Clark we're talking about did stick out to him (also keep in mind that before we started watching it, I didn't tell him my opinion of the film and it's little details, and I don't think I've ever told him about, and if I did, he wouldn't remember it because he doesn't pay much attention to such things).
> 
> To paraphrase him, he pointed out that he didn't like how Pa Kent's statements are made to make Clark feel special (in the sense that his safety is above all, not that he isn't special to his parents). Yes he's an alien, but there are 7 billion people on Earth and if he to be among them, he might as well understand he is not above them. Instilling the values in him at that age felt wrong to him. He also said that he found it absolutely baffling that Pa Kent's reaction to Clark's (rhetorical) question was that of uncertainty. That no parent needs to think about it in their minds or hesitate to point out that if the lives of people are in danger and you can do something about it, you should. He then said supposing Clark didn't save the kids because he knew people would have thought it was strange that he lifted up an entire bus. He would be the only survivor perhaps, and if not, some kids would have probably drowned. Is it better that he at such a young age be left with survivor's guilt? What's Pa Kent now supposed to say when Clark comes up to him and says he didn't do anything because he didn't want to get caught? Funny enough, he didn't have a problem with the tornado scene, and thought it was touching (even though I hate it and explained to him why).
> 
> For me, the entire order of the scenes is the problem. If I were to fix it, this is what I would have done:
> 
> Start off with something less grave and serious, like the Kents doing some family shopping at a grocery store. While Martha is trying to pack some stuff in a bag or reach for something, she either slips or knocks off something by accident. Clark then uses his superior reaction time and speed to stop Martha from falling or to catch the object(s). While he doesn't get caught, Jonathan warns him sternly about using his powers in public. Clark does protest, insisting he just wants to help, and Martha tries to tell Jonathan it's not a big deal, Pa Kent is still firm in his stance. Clark eventually accepts what he is told, though still quite upset. The scene can end there.
> 
> The next scene would be the school bus scene and it'll play out exactly as it does in the film. However the next scene is where I would make the change. When Pa Kent goes to talk to Clark, he can see his son is visibly upset and on the verge of tears, because he knows he disobeyed his father. He starts off by saying he's sorry and other words start coming out as he cries, but Pa Kent instead cuts him off by hugging him, telling him he did the right thing. The camera pans from Clark's crying face, to Jonathan, who though is comforting his son, expresses a little bit of uncertainty and fear in his face. You can even follow up that scene with Jonathan showing Clark where he really comes from, though it might defeat the purpose.
> ...


Like I've said before, imagine what would have happened if Clark had done nothing and watch all of his classmates die. How would it inflict him? I know any decent guy would live under the shadow of this incident and drown in deep regret for the rest of his/her life.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm guessing Arthur nabs some Atlantean guards armor to blend in.


In before WB cut it out the film and we'll never know...

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> He couldn't have become Superman if his childhood role model is so low on morality. Imagine if someone like Darkseid had found Kal El, what kind of person would Kal El have become?
> 
> His father would worry about his safety, but at nowhere close to let a bus of kids die. His father should also be proud of what Clark have done and encourage him to use his power for good purpose.  This is the Pa Kent we know and want to see.


The first paragraph is nonsense. 

His father would be proud of him, just as Martha is, but both prioritize his wellbeing over him saving others.

----------


## Frontier

> In before WB cut it out the film and we'll never know...


Well, hopefully the solo movies can continue to avoid the dreaded scene cutting  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The first paragraph is nonsense. 
> 
> His father would be proud of him, just as Martha is, but both prioritize his wellbeing over him saving others.


I don't see it from that scene, he was thinking about Clark maybe should let them die.

Even his secret should never be above a bus of kids' lives.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't see it from that scene, he was thinking about Clark maybe should let them die.
> 
> Even his secret should never be above a bus of kids' lives.


Again, in BvS, and JL, Martha supports his decision to be Superman, but, like Jonathan, feels that he doesn't owe it to the world to be their saviour.

Jonathan even says that, when Clark is older, his reveal will change the world, and that Clark will be the one to decide what that change will be. He is clearly in total support of an older making whatever decisions he feels to be right.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Again, in BvS, and JL, Martha supports his decision to be Superman, but, like Jonathan, feels that he doesn't owe it to the world to be their saviour.
> 
> Jonathan even says that, when Clark is older, his reveal will change the world, and that Clark will be the one to decide what that change will be. He is clearly in total support of an older making whatever decisions he feels to be right.


It's not owe it or not, it's basic moral standards, if someone could save these kids' lives but chose not to, then this guy is really really low.

Clark chose to save those kids and Jonathan was displeased, which is why the whole conversation has started.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's not owe it or not, it's basic moral standards, if someone could save these kids' lives but chose not to, then this guy is really really low.
> 
> Clark chose to save those kids and Jonathan was displeased, which is why the whole conversation has started.


He was worried, not displeased. His son is a minor, and doesn't grasp the ramifications if his existence on Earth. He wants his son to reveal himself when he's older, and has at least a decent grasp on how the world is. That's all.

What he said isn't good, but it's understandable. He doesn't need to be virtuous to be a good dad, nor to raise Superman to be a good man. He wants him to not be careless. Everything he says clearly points to him being fine with what an adult Clark chooses to do with his powers.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He was worried, not displeased. His son is a minor, and doesn't grasp the ramifications if his existence on Earth. He wants his son to reveal himself when he's older, and has at least a decent grasp on how the world is. That's all.
> 
> What he said isn't good, but it's understandable. He doesn't need to be virtuous to be a good dad, nor to raise Superman to be a good man. He wants him to not be careless. Everything he says clearly points to him being fine with what an adult Clark chooses to do with his powers.


Yes he was displeased, even said "maybe" when his son asked should he let those kids die. His son is a minor, and telling Clark to let innocent people die is something far much worse than expose his own secret, even with realistic moral standards.. 

It's below decent by realistic moral standards, which shouldn't even exist from someone like Superman's dad, the most kindhearted superhero, who never fear to risk his own life when others are in danger. THIS is what superhero is about.

Or let's be more direct: A bus full of kids' live is NOT something that should be argued about when comparing to someone's secret. Let me ask you, how would you react if you were on the bus? Would you let these kids die when you could save all of them?

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Aquaman set photo
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me that isn't inspired by Murk's armor in the recent Rebirth run?


I'm still trying to figure out where Arthur gets the Atlantean armour and trident he had in that BvS footage

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I'm still trying to figure out where Arthur gets the Atlantean armour and trident he had in that BvS footage


It doesn't appear to be his first run-in with Atlantis in JL.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Also I have a question about MoS' beginning.

Isn't natural born illegal on Krypton? Why wasn't Lara El punished for it? Instead we saw her wearing that kind of dress during the trial. Shouldn't she be put into Phantom Zone as well? Imagine the Krypton invasion has her as well...

----------


## ekrolo2

MoS Jonathan Kent had the misfortune of being in a Superman film, if he was in X-Men nobody would give him crap about him being (rightfully) paranoid about someone screwing his whole family over once his kid showcased his powers.

----------


## Robotman

I totally understand where Pa Kent was coming from. I’m sure he had nightmares of his son being taken by the govt and dissected in some lab. Or brainwashed and turned into a weapon of mass destruction. But the filmmakers could have given him those fears but still have him inspire his son to want to save people. 

Like if the dialogue was:

Clark: “what was I supposed to do? Let them drowned?”
Jonathan: “maybe...no, no you did the right thing Clark. But you need to be more careful!”

I think Kevin Costner did a great job with what he was given. I just wish they would have conveyed more conflict within Jonathan. He was just made to be the strong quiet man who doesn’t like expressing his emotions.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I totally understand where Pa Kent was coming from. I’m sure he had nightmares of his son being taken by the govt and dissected in some lab. Or brainwashed and turned into a weapon of mass destruction. But the filmmakers could have given him those fears but still have him inspire his son to want to save people. 
> 
> Like if the dialogue was:
> 
> Clark: “what was I supposed to do? Let them drowned?”
> Jonathan: “maybe...no, no you did the right thing Clark. But you need to be more careful!”
> 
> I think Kevin Costner did a great job with what he was given. I just wish they would have conveyed more conflict within Jonathan. He was just made to be the strong quiet man who doesn’t like expressing his emotions.


Why not just "You did the right thing, I'm so proud of you Clark for using the power for good purpose. Just be careful."?

Kevin Costner's acting turned this terrible character to be touching if you don't think deeply.

----------


## Slowpokeking

How I would have rewritten some of MoS' plot to make it better.


1. Make Krypton's Destruction more reasonable, let their super computer Brainiac deceived them and killed Jor El because he had found out. No growth codex.

2. The Zod got beaten scene is totally unnecessary. You need to build up the antagonist, not to dwarf him down.

3. Lara El was also sent to the Phantom Zone for illegal natural born, thus survived along with the Zod crew. 

4. Bus scene rewrite: Jonathan was around when he saw the bus fall, he immediately made the call and tried his best to save those kids, when he saw Clark, he helped him to cover up. Then back home he was very happy with Clark using his power for such heroic action, just need to be careful as well.

5. Tornado scene rewrite: Jonathan was badly injured due to trying to save someone during the torando and Clark wasn't around. By the time Clark was there it was too late. He used his last strength to tell his son that do not be too sad when you can't use your power to save everyone, but never hesitate when people need your help.

6. After Jonathan's death, Clark went across the world to find himself and learned the truth from the scout ship and Jor El gave him insight for his purpose.

7. Lara El was with Zod's crew, she agrees to invade earth but also loves her son.

8. Lara El helped Superman to escape from the ship, not Lois and Jor El.

9. The Kryptonians weren't sent back to the Phantom Zone, the genesis chamber wasn't destroyed. they were just trapped during the big fight. After Zod's death, Lara El and the Kryptonians negotiated with Superman and left Earth to find a new home.

10. Post credit scene showing Brainiac was harvesting other civilizations' knowledge, insisting its next stop is Earth. The second one shows the appearance of Lex Luthor. Forshadowing these two as the villain of the sequel.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

Wow!  It's four years later and we're still fighting about MOS.

----------


## Agent Z

> Also I have a question about MoS' beginning.
> 
> Isn't natural born illegal on Krypton? Why wasn't Lara El punished for it? Instead we saw her wearing that kind of dress during the trial. Shouldn't she be put into Phantom Zone as well? Imagine the Krypton invasion has her as well...


The planet was already on its way to destruction. There was no point

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The planet was already on its way to destruction. There was no point


If Lara was also put into the Phantom Zone, she would have survived!

----------


## jertz666

> Why not just "You did the right thing, I'm so proud of you Clark for using the power for good purpose. Just be careful."?
> 
> Kevin Costner's acting turned this terrible character to be touching if you don't think deeply.



Huh, but you're both saying the same thing.    Robotman's version is  "maybe...no, no you did the right thing Clark. But you need to be more careful!   Maybe there is more stress on "Be careful" than "You did the right thing"  but that is acceptable.   A parent's instinct is always to protect their kids so it makes sense to emphasize "be careful" if the  kid does something reckless.

What most people object to in the film version is Jonathan's suggestion that Clark's secret identify is more important than the lives of a busload of children.

Anyway, as other posters have suggested ... this topic has become tiresome.   It's somewhat pointless now as the DCEU might not even have a future.   JL's Thursday's gross is $8,465,000 which is lower than comparable movies in the same time frame.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Huh, but you're both saying the same thing.    Robotman's version is  "maybe...no, no you did the right thing Clark. But you need to be more careful!”   Maybe there is more stress on "Be careful" than "You did the right thing"  but that is acceptable.   A parent's instinct is always to protect their kids so it makes sense to emphasize "be careful" if the  kid does something reckless.
> 
> What most people object to in the film version is Jonathan's suggestion that Clark's secret identify is more important than the lives of a busload of children.
> 
> Anyway, as other posters have suggested ... this topic has become tiresome.   It's somewhat pointless now as the DCEU might not even have a future.   JL's Thursday's gross is $8,465,000 which is lower than comparable movies in the same time frame.


I think there should be NO "maybe" when we are talking about a bus full of kids. Especially when we are talking about Superman's dad, he should be the first guy to call for help and swim down to save people, not to say garbage like this.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> He couldn't have become Superman if his childhood role model is so low on morality. Imagine if someone like Darkseid had found Kal El, what kind of person would Kal El have become?
> 
> His father would worry about his safety, but at nowhere close to let a bus of kids die. His father should also be proud of what Clark have done and encourage him to use his power for good purpose.  This is the Pa Kent we know and want to see.


Jonathan Kent is 1,000,000% not Darkseid.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

The RT meter went up to 41%.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The RT meter went up to 41%.


Hopefully it recovers a bit (or a lot, but I'll settle for a bit too) this weekend.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Jonathan Kent is 1,000,000% not Darkseid.


I'm just using the most extreme example.

Also the Darkseid in Gods and Monsters weren't that bad.

----------


## Random killer x

I was really hoping that JL would get back on track during the Thanksgiving weekend but that does not seem to be the case. WB really put this movie in a tough spot letting the budget escalate to $300 million dollars, thats just insane! I mean you set Yourself up for failure with all these reshoots and cuts. Despite all the negativity from the previous films, a $150-200 million budget and we would be talking about a success right about now. 

This movie was never going to reach Avengers money level, it was the first of its kind, a once in a lifetime thing. Give props to Marvel, they thought about this whole universe thing first and DC came way late in to the game. Will these execs ever learn to just stay the hell away or just have limited involvement in these projects is the way to go.

----------


## Slowpokeking

How did it become 300M? I don't see the fighting and special effect being better than MoS.

----------


## Confuzzled

> How did it become 300M? I don't see the fighting and special effect being better than MoS.


All the reshoots drove up the cost. Not to mention a lot of the effects laden scenes ended up on the editing room floor. 

But JL will still turn profit once it hits home video and other ancillary markets. A WB exec said it needed to hit 600M worldwide in its theatrical run to make profit. It will do that much at the very least.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> All the reshoots drove up the cost. Not to mention a lot of the effects laden scenes ended up on the editing room floor. 
> 
> But JL will still turn profit once it hits home video and other ancillary markets. A WB exec said it needed to hit 600M worldwide in its theatrical run to make profit. It will do that much at the very least.


Reshoot is a bad idea.

----------


## Robotman

> How did it become 300M? I don't see the fighting and special effect being better than MoS.


I enjoyed the movie but the cgi was horrible. Obviously Cavill’s upper lip is just laughable and ruins some of his scenes. And Steppenwolf’s design was super generic. I have no idea how the budget ballooned to $300 million. Even with the $25 million for reshoot that still means a $275 million budget. Still way too high.

----------


## inisideguy

I am actually interested in the Snyder version lol

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> It's like Christmas!




lol. This jonathan thing is part of the fans being zealst. Poster Ekrolo2 menttioned that if itb was an X  men, everyone would understand Jonathan. I  will not defend WB  but i will not defend the zealots either, sometimes i feel Superman fandom  isone of his biggest problems , they seme to want an archetype , not an actual character with struggles. 
WB  screwed it, but they screwed it because they panicked, and they panicked because MOS, an actually decent origin film, was divisive. Most of the things in the film that are seen as some heresy are part of a legit take on a character with  80 years of life

----------


## Confuzzled

> I enjoyed the movie but the cgi was horrible. Obviously Cavill’s upper lip is just laughable and ruins some of his scenes. And Steppenwolf’s design was super generic. I have no idea how the budget ballooned to $300 million. Even with the $25 million for reshoot that still means a $275 million budget. Still way too high.


Going by the glimpses of scenes edited out: Cyborg discovering the extent of the powers, Barry saving Iris etc. you know those weren't cheap. All that just to, at best, end up on the Extra Features section of home video release? Sigh.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> lol. This jonathan thing is part of the fans being zealst. Poster Ekrolo2 menttioned that if itb was an X  men, everyone would understand Jonathan. I  will not defend WB  but i will not defend the zealots either, sometimes i feel Superman fandom  isone of his biggest problems , they seme to want an archetype , not an actual character with struggles. 
> WB  screwed it, but they screwed it because they panicked, and they panicked because MOS, an actually decent origin film, was divisive. Most of the things in the film that are seen as some heresy are part of a legit take on a character with  80 years of life


But this is not X-Men, this is a Superman movie. X-Men is cool but its style doesn't fit every superhero. Even in X-Men, what kind of ppl would think about leaving a bus full of kids to die? I don't think Xavier would ever think about it. Even Wolverine would go save them.

----------


## inisideguy

> But this is not X-Men, this is a Superman movie. X-Men is cool but its style doesn't fit every superhero. Even in X-Men, what kind of ppl would think about leaving a bus full of kids to die? I don't think Xavier would ever think about it. Even Wolverine would go save them.


I think Snyder's goal was to deconstruct superman for a post 911 world. Probably did it a little clumsy  but I do get what he was trying to do.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I think Snyder's goal was to deconstruct superman for a post 911 world. Probably did it a little clumsy  but I do get what he was trying to do.


Mainstream Superhero is ideal and unrealistic, why shoot a Superhero movie, especially a Superman movie if you want to go such way? Singer flopped because there was no action scene in SR plus quite a few problems, but he at least understand you can't shoot a Superman movie like you've done X-Men. 

911 was a national disaster, but in the comic big buildings are being destroyed everyday, see the huge gap and difference here?

----------


## inisideguy

> Mainstream Superhero is ideal and unrealistic, why shoot a Superhero movie, especially a Superman movie if you want to go such way? Singer flopped because there was no action scene in SR plus quite a few problems, but he at least understand you can't shoot a Superman movie like you've done X-Men. 
> 
> 911 was a national disaster, but in the comic big buildings are being destroyed everyday, see the huge gap and difference here?


Yea. What I mean by a post 911 world is everything is not ra ra truth justice American way eat your wheaties.  Hollywood did similar things with westerners and  war movies in the 70s and 80s.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yea. What I mean by a post 911 world is everything is not ra ra truth justice American way eat your wheaties.  Hollywood did similar things with westerners and  war movies in the 70s and 80s.



The old Spiderman movies were so successful in the post 911 years. Did it turn Uncle Ben into some selfish guy who said "Forget about responsibility, protect yourself!"? No! The world is dark so the heroes need to become the beacon in the dark night, not to go down with it. And the role model of the hero needs to do the same.

----------


## Agent Z

> If Lara was also put into the Phantom Zone, she would have survived!


With Zod the man who'd already killed her husband? Unlikely

----------


## Slowpokeking

Uncle Ben pretty much played similar role to Peter like Jonathan Kent to Clark. Glad Rami didn't go with the "I just want to protect my Peter, should others die? Maybe" way with Uncle Ben.

----------


## inisideguy

> The old Spiderman movies were so successful in the post 911 years. Did it turn Uncle Ben into some selfish guy who said "Forget about responsibility, protect yourself!"? No! The world is dark so the heroes need to become the beacon in the dark night, not to go down with it. And the role model of the hero needs to do the same.


Oh I dont disagree. Just telling u what Snyder was attempting. Still people to this day who love old John Wayne westerns from the 50s to the 70s and 80s pekinpa or Eastwood ones.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Oh I dont disagree. Just telling u what Snyder was attempting. Still people to this day who love old John Wayne westerns from the 50s to the 70s and 80s pekinpa or Eastwood ones.


There is a big difference between "showing the world isn't so shiny" and "bringing a beacon character to a low level".

I know what Snyder was trying to do, and I know it's not gonna work well.




> With Zod the man who'd already killed her husband? Unlikely


With Krypton gone and Kal El to find, I doubt Zod would kill her.

----------


## inisideguy

> There is a big difference between "showing the world isn't so shiny" and "bringing a beacon character to a low level".
> 
> I know what Snyder was trying to do, and I know it's not gonna work well.
> 
> 
> 
> With Krypton gone and Kal El to find, I doubt Zod would kill her.


Probably does not work so great in the mass market big budget comic book world of today. Logan did well v for vendetta did ok, watchman fair, dredd which was probably the most accurate depiction of a comic character on screen bombed. It's was just way to brutal and dark.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Probably does not work so great in the mass market big budget comic book world of today. Logan did well v for vendetta did ok, watchman fair, dredd which was probably the most accurate depiction of a comic character on screen bombed. It's was just way to brutal and dark.


Because not all superhero fit this formula, especially Superman.

----------


## inisideguy

> Because not all superhero fit this formula, especially Superman.


It's a little odd. Your probably right the mass market isn't interested in deconstructed hero's. Heck they really are not gonna shovel money to dark takes on any hero cept maybe to bat man and wolverine. Lots of this stuff probably better on tv or comics. Injustice is an interesting take set in a different world.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.

https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...91587001024513

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It's a little odd. Your probably right the mass market isn't interested in deconstructed hero's. Heck they really are not gonna shovel money to dark takes on any hero cept maybe to bat man and wolverine. Lots of this stuff probably better on tv or comics. Injustice is an interesting take set in a different world.


Depend on which hero are we talking about. Some of them fit well with this setting but definitely not all of them do. 

Injustice League was popular because it was fresh compare to the ordinary setting, but that's not what DCEU need when it's still building up the league.

----------


## inisideguy

> Depend on which hero are we talking about. Some of them fit well with this setting but definitely not all of them do. 
> 
> Injustice League was popular because it was fresh compare to the ordinary setting, but that's not what DCEU need when it's still building up the league.


What Miller did with bat man in the comics in 1986 totally deconstucted the character. He took the cliches of regular bat man titles for 50 years and said ok this is my take. Kill the joker already. It was huge in the comics. I think it's what Snyder was doing with superman it just didn't work for the mass public.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> What Miller did with bat man in the comics in 1986 totally deconstucted the character. He took the cliches of regular bat man titles for 50 years and said ok this is my take. Kill the joker already. It was huge in the comics. I think it's what Snyder was doing with superman it just didn't work for the mass public.


Again, NOT every hero fit this dark and gritty formula. I don't want to repeat myself. Harley Quinn's series worked great, should we copy its style to Wonder Woman?

I dislike SR and think it made many mistake, but at least Singer knows one thing, NOBODY wants to see X-Men's theme in a Superman movie.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...91587001024513


Yeah, really dislike that look.

----------


## Agent Z

> Uncle Ben pretty much played similar role to Peter like Jonathan Kent to Clark. Glad Rami didn't go with the "I just want to protect my Peter, should others die? Maybe" way with Uncle Ben.


Ben didn't know Peter was Spider-Man. Hell he freaked out over Peter getting into a fight at school even though Peter was just defending himself

----------


## Agent Z

> There is a big difference between "showing the world isn't so shiny" and "bringing a beacon character to a low level".
> 
> I know what Snyder was trying to do, and I know it's not gonna work well.
> 
> 
> 
> With Krypton gone and Kal El to find, I doubt Zod would kill her.


Zod had no problem killing Jor El and he knew where Clark was. 

And all of this is moot anyway because Lara wasn't going in the Phantom Zone. 

I also love how after all your melodrama over Jonathan's "maybe" you have no issue with Superman's biological mother supporting an invasion of another planet

----------


## Robotman

> New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...91587001024513


Man I really hope the Garth Evans Deathstroke movie happens! Would be amazing. He looks great but I would prefer if he didn’t have the full goatee. Just the chin goatee like he has in the comics.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...91587001024513


I think they need to go with less bulky armor. Give him the Ikon Armor in the current comics, and along with maybe the longer hair. Also, Slade needs to have an "IDGAF" face, at least 95% of the time.

----------


## Carabas

> Also I have a question about MoS' beginning.
> 
> Isn't natural born illegal on Krypton? Why wasn't Lara El punished for it? Instead we saw her wearing that kind of dress during the trial. Shouldn't she be put into Phantom Zone as well? Imagine the Krypton invasion has her as well...


I'd say that she wasn't considered a flight risk and let out on bail pending her trial at some point in the future.
Which would maybe result in a big fine and/or some time served in a regular prison perhaps instead of life imprisonment with the worst of the worst?

----------


## Carabas

> New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.


Meh. He's no Manu Bennett.

----------


## Robotman

> I think they need to go with less bulky armor. Give him the Ikon Armor in the current comics, and along with maybe the longer hair. Also, Slade needs to have an "IDGAF" face, at least 95% of the time.


This costume is definitely inspired by the Arkham Origins game as well as the New 52 Deathstroke. I personally dislike the fact that they made his mask into more of a helmet. I much prefer the classic cloth mask. It was kind of Spider-Man like which I always thought was cool. Deadpool and Spider-Man showed that they can make the cloth mask work on film. Eh, whatever. I just really want that Gareth Edwards movie to happen! Though everything is up in the air now that Justice League bomber.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I really like the look. Not sure the bulkiness in some parts is sustainable in all action sequences but I like the overall aesthetic.

----------


## Barbatos666

> I think they need to go with less bulky armor. Give him the Ikon Armor in the current comics, and along with maybe the longer hair. Also, Slade needs to have an "IDGAF" face, at least 95% of the time.


Its far less bulky than the Arrow version and its pretty much the Arkham Origins look brought to life. IKON is too recent to be in anything.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

DS's look is way too bulky and reminiscent of N52 for my tastes.

The original costume is way more visually appealing:

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Hopefully it recovers a bit (or a lot, but I'll settle for a bit too) this weekend.


Opening weekend really set it up badly.  It needed to open huge but didn't due to brand damage and all the backstage drama.  Coco is a very well reviewed family movie that premiered on a holiday weekend and should make around $50- 65 million for the weekend.  It would be amazing if JL could do $50 million and get second.  A 50% drop off wouldn't be too bad either but it will likely be around a 60% drop off.  The vast majority of the people who have seen JL that I have talked to liked it.  However on the other side (people who haven't seen it) I've heard a lot of, "I've heard it's bad.  After BvS I'll wait for HBO."  




> I was really hoping that JL would get back on track during the Thanksgiving weekend but that does not seem to be the case. WB really put this movie in a tough spot letting the budget escalate to $300 million dollars, that’s just insane! I mean you set Yourself up for failure with all these reshoots and cuts. Despite all the negativity from the previous films, a $150-200 million budget and we would be talking about a success right about now.


Financial maybe but not critical/audience.   This movie needed both critical and audience WOM to offset the divisive history of the previous two films.  I won't count Suicide Squad but I kind of feel like Suicide Squad had an influence on JL just as much as BvS.

----------


## Soubhagya

How does Marvel keep those budgets in line? Thor Ragnarok lists 180 million dollars. Even without reshoots we are talking 275 million for JL. Man of Steel cost 225 million. Perhaps this is why 668 million appeared middling. Otherwise its a good figure. 

Such huge numbers means there's risk of failing to break even in case of a failure which is a possibilty. Not all Marvel films are spectacular successes. Some do businesses in 500-600 million range. They manage to turn in a hefty profit.

DC shall learn to keep budgets under control. Its possible.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Zod had no problem killing Jor El and he knew where Clark was. 
> 
> And all of this is moot anyway because Lara wasn't going in the Phantom Zone. 
> 
> I also love how after all your melodrama over Jonathan's "maybe" you have no issue with Superman's biological mother supporting an invasion of another planet


If he could reach the agreement with Lara why not? You see even when he met Kal El, he didn't want to kill him before knowing about the codex.

Because Lara had NO influence on Clark in MoS and she's Kryptonian. So it might be a interesting way to do it and bring up the conflict between earth and Krypton.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Ben didn't know Peter was Spider-Man. Hell he freaked out over Peter getting into a fight at school even though Peter was just defending himself


Ben knew it's right to help people instead of hide away and let ppl die.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Ben knew it's right to help people instead of hide away and let ppl die.


So did Jonathan. He. Didn't. TELL. Clark. To. Let. People. Die! 

"Maybe" does NOT mean "Yes."

----------


## Slowpokeking

> So did Jonathan. He. Didn't. TELL. Clark. To. Let. People. Die! 
> 
> "Maybe" does NOT mean "Yes."


"Maybe" means probably yes.

Do you know how low that is when we are talking about a bus full of kids' lives?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> He couldn't become Superman because some stuff his daddy told him as a kid? That's not true at all.
> 
> People have much more choice in life than that, especially someone so very exceptional ala Superman. Clark is his own man and can make his own way in the world. Jonathan Kent having reservations about what the US government would do to his uber powerful *alien* son, is realistic.
> 
> A parent thinks first of the safety of their child. Clark might grow up to champion the oppressed and save the world countless times, but his father (a poor farmer from rural America) would simply think of what is best for his little boy growing up. What will keep Clark safe, when he's not around to help anymore. The only thing he can logically think of is "keep this a secret". It's Clark's job to decide what he wants to do as a grown man.


In pretty much every incarnation, Superman's values are the product of how his parents raised him. So, if his dad stresses self-preservation over saving the lives of others, well then we get a Superman who is closed off and hesitant to be a hero. And that is not Superman.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Among other JL controversy:

https://heroichollywood.com/justice-...armor-designs/

----------


## Slowpokeking

I do think it's a shame that in MoS Kal El never got to know about Lara.

----------


## Frontier

> New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...91587001024513


Awesome  :Cool: .




> DS's look is way too bulky and reminiscent of N52 for my tastes.
> 
> The original costume is way more visually appealing:


I think that works perfectly fine in the comics, but I think the movie look works better in a modern and live-action setting. 

Maybe it could be a little more streamlined, but I don't think it's as unnecessarily bulky as it could be. Especially compared to other Superhero costumes or even the _Arrow_ suit.

----------


## Doctor Know

> "*Maybe*" means *probably*yes.
> 
> Do you know how low that is when we are talking about a bus full of kids' lives?


"Maybe" can mean no, too. 

Words like maybe, likely, probably, might, etc are all modal verbs.

Modality is the grammaticalized expression of the subjective attitudes and opinions of the speaker including possibility, probability, necessity, obligation, permissibility, ability, desire, and contingency.


Jonathan Kent did not say "definitely", "yes", "certainly" or any other word that would convey his condoning of Clark not helping those kids. It's the projection by people who are critical of MOS, that deliberately misconstrue this scene and ignore the context of the scene, in order to convey their disapproval. The context of the scene being a concerned parent wanting to protect his son from the dangers of the world and suggesting keeping his powers a secret might be the best course of action.

I swear to God, if the scene in question was in an X-Men movie, nobody would have complained. Because as we all know, there have never been supportive parents of mutants, who tell their kids to put on a brightly colored costume and go out and expose their gifts to the world. Nor has there been any adoring and tolerant public waiting to greet someone who is different.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> "Maybe" can mean no, too. 
> 
> Words like maybe, likely, probably, might, etc are all modal verbs.
> 
> Modality is the grammaticalized expression of the subjective attitudes and opinions of the speaker including possibility, probability, necessity, obligation, permissibility, ability, desire, and contingency.
> 
> 
> Jonathan Kent did not say "definitely", "yes", "certainly" or any other word that would convey his condoning of Clark not helping those kids. It's the projection by people who are critical of MOS, that deliberately misconstrue this scene and ignore the context of the scene, in order to convey their disapproval. The context of the scene being a concerned parent wanting to protect his son from the dangers of the world and suggesting keeping his powers a secret might be the best course of action.
> 
> I swear to God, if the scene in question was in an X-Men movie, nobody would have complained. Because as we all know, there have never been supportive parents of mutants, who tell their kids to put on a brightly colored costume and go out and expose them gifts to the world. Nor has there been any adoring and tolerant public waiting to greet someone who is different.


And you know we are talking about a bus full of kids, they are SURELY going to DIE if Clark didn't help right?

DO you honestly think a "probably yes" should pop out when we are talking about it? Really? Even by ordinary standards, it's very low.

Even in X-Men, I'm sure Xavier would not hesitate to save them, even antihero like Wolverine would not let they die. Even Magneto had tried to save his workers in Apocalypse. And X-Men's formula doesn't fit every hero.  Do you see Singer put such element when he's in charge of a Superman movie?

----------


## manofsteel1979

Ok...So we are once again going down the "MOS Jonathan Kent is an emotionally abusive monster who would let children drown!" Road again? Really? Did I somehow time travel back to 2013 again? 

What's next? Moaning about Superman snapping Zod's nec...Oh, right. That was a few pages back too. 

There's a good chance the DCEU is mostly done anyway given JL's box office. So you won't have to worry about having your childhood memories  offended by Snyder again anyway, so you've won.

Just let it go already.

----------


## inisideguy

I find it interesting how the double standards exist for other heroes. Superman is suppose to be almost Jesus like due to 80 years or whatever of writing. No divergence. I grew up reading Marvel, Iron man and Captain America didn't kill people. They kill people like cannon fodder in the films. No one blinks an eye.

----------


## Frontier

> Ok...So we are once again going down the "MOS Jonathan Kent is an emotionally abusive monster!" Road again? Really? Did I somehow time travel back to 2013 again? 
> 
> Jesus people, let it go.


Honestly, whatever my opinions of the DCEU and it's story points, even I'm just kind of done rehashing the same back-and-forth arguments about _Man of Steel_ and BvS  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> I find it interesting how the double standards exist for other heroes. Superman is suppose to be almost Jesus like due to 80 years or whatever of writing. No divergence. I grew up reading Marvel, Iron man and Captain America didn't kill people. They kill people like cannon fodder in the films. No one blinks an eye.


I do...

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Ok...So we are once again going down the "MOS Jonathan Kent is an emotionally abusive monster!" Road again? Really? Did I somehow time travel back to 2013 again? 
> 
> Jesus people, let it go.


Such dark and gritty element is a major reason of DCEU's struggle, even though they have learned their lesson since WW.




> I find it interesting how the double standards exist for other heroes. Superman is suppose to be almost Jesus like due to 80 years or whatever of writing. No divergence. I grew up reading Marvel, Iron man and Captain America didn't kill people. They kill people like cannon fodder in the films. No one blinks an eye.


Because Superman is a bigger symbol than most of the other heroes.

And we are not talking about "should he be perfect" here, but "should he let a bus full of kids die"? Does it require Jesus level of morality to do it?

----------


## inisideguy

> Honestly, whatever my opinions of the DCEU and it's story points, even I'm just kind of done rehashing the same back-and-forth arguments about _Man of Steel_ and BvS .
> 
> 
> I do...



 Its odd. Iron man torches people in an almost non chalaunt way.  He didn't do that in the comics.  Cap has killed more people than I can count. His body count in winter solider is huge. There isn't any moral outrage with this.

----------


## inisideguy

> Such dark and gritty element is a major reason of DCEU's struggle, even though they have learned their lesson since WW.
> 
> 
> 
> Because Superman is a bigger symbol than most of the other heroes.
> 
> And we are not talking about "should he be perfect" here, but "should he let a bus full of kids die"? Does it require Jesus level of morality to do it?


No you have just decided that superman is some perfect symbol. Marvel heroes were not written the way they are portrayed in the movies. Cap didn't just kick people off of bridges and helicarriers to die. The leeway given to other heroes is remarkable.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Its odd. Iron man torches people in an almost non chalaunt way.  He didn't do that in the comics.  Cap has killed more people than I can count. His body count in winter solider is huge. There isn't any moral outrage with this.


Neither of them are as iconic as Superman, Iron Man was 2nd tier before MCU had started.

We are not talking about "should he kill enemies" but "should he save a bus of kids"? Tell me, will MCU Cap and Iron Man let them die?

----------


## inisideguy

> Neither of them are as iconic as Superman, Iron Man was 2nd tier before MCU had started.
> 
> We are not talking about "should he kill enemies" but "should he save a bus of kids"? Tell me, will MCU Cap and Iron Man let them die?


Actually you are just making excuses for them because they are somehow second tier in your eyes. They were not written that way in the comics. Iron man didn't just blow up tanks with men in them. Cap has 60 years of comics he didn't just kill hundreds of people without even really giving it much thought.  Its this weird puritanic and obsession you have with superman and conversations within superman movies. They actually talked about moral issues regarding having people die. They don't even give a crap in Iron Man and Captain America.

----------


## Carabas

> Ok...So we are once again going down the "MOS Jonathan Kent is an emotionally abusive monster who would let children drown!" Road again? Really? Did I somehow time travel back to 2013 again?


Some actions from supposedly moral and upstanding characters are so repulsive that teh fandom is not ever going to forget about it or let it rest.

Like Spider-Man and One More Day...

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Actually you are just making excuses for them because they are somehow second tier in your eyes. They were not written that way in the comics. Iron man didn't just blow up tanks with men in them. Cap has 60 years of comics he didn't just kill hundreds of people without even really giving it much thought.  Its this weird puritanic and obsession you have with superman and conversations within superman movies. They actually talked about moral issues regarding having people die. They don't even give a crap in Iron Man and Captain America.


They are, they never reached the status of Superman thus people don't care about these characters getting revamped or not. That happens in comics as well, lower tier character tend to get replaced/killed/revamped much more often.

Again we are talking about Superman doing the killing or not, but should he let a bus full of kids die? Tell me, would MCU Captain and Iron Man let them die? Don't avoid the question please.




> Some actions from supposedly moral and upstanding characters are so repulsive that teh fandom is not ever going to forget about it or let it rest.
> 
> Like Spider-Man and One More Day...


Letting a bus of kids die, is some very serious issue.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> There's a good chance the DCEU is mostly done anyway given JL's box office. So you won't have to worry about having your childhood memories  offended by Snyder again anyway, so you've won.


I think that is part of the reason some are upset.  The initial reception of the first two parts of the trilogy have potentially affected actually seeing a larger connected universe.  I'm in the middle of the debate about how good/bad MOS and BvS are.  I liked both but hoped they were better.  Opportunities were wasted to say the least.  I said early on that it was a mistake to assume that they would keep making these movies for years and years.... especially without a solid foundation.




> Honestly, whatever my opinions of the DCEU and it's story points, even I'm just kind of done rehashing the same back-and-forth arguments about _Man of Steel_ and BvS


Yeah.  I'm burnt out on both extremes.  The haters keep hating, but the most vigilant defenders are overcompensating and sometimes take up close to entire pages defending out of insecurity.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I think that is part of the reason some are upset.  The initial reception of the first two parts of the trilogy have potentially affected actually seeing a larger connected universe.  I'm in the middle of the debate about how good/bad MOS and BvS are.  I liked both but hoped they were better.  Opportunities were wasted to say the least.  I said early on that it was a mistake to assume that they would keep making these movies for years and years.... especially without a solid foundation.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  I'm burnt out on both extremes.  The haters keep hating, but the defenders are overcompensating and sometimes take up close to entire pages defending out of insecurity.


I like MoS, just hate some part of it.

DCEU made many mistakes, I just think JL as a movie with flaws doesn't deserve what it got now.

I'm in a very weird position, overall I love DC and DCEU a lot, but some elements and setups made me really unhappy and I think it caused the current struggle of DCEU.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I like MoS, just hate some part of it.
> 
> DCEU made many mistakes, I just think JL as a movie with flaws doesn't deserve what it got now.


Flawed but fun is the best way that I would describe JL.  It had fun and pace to it but you could tell that scenes were missing connecting those action sequences.  We may never know who directed what for sure but there are scenes where the attempts at humor seem forced.  I liked Miller as the Flash but whichever director directed the parts where he was in costume doing that "weird eye thing" either needed to reign him in or just did an odd job of directing.  None of Batman's fight scenes really wowed me the way that the warehouse scene in BvS did.  WW was close to perfect.  The Atlantis scenes should get people excited for an Aquaman movie.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Flawed but fun is the best way that I would describe JL.  It had fun and pace to it but you could tell that scenes were missing connecting those action sequences.  We may never know who directed what for sure but there are scenes where the attempts at humor seem forced.  I liked Miller as the Flash but whichever director directed the parts where he was in costume doing that "weird eye thing" either needed to reign him in or just did an odd job of directing.  None of Batman's fight scenes really wowed me the way that the warehouse scene in BvS did.  WW was close to perfect.  The Atlantis scenes should get people excited for an Aquaman movie.


I blame the previous setups, if we've got the solo movies of Flash and Aquaman before JL, things would have been totally different.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Back to 2013, I was dreaming to see the Justice League show up on big screen. I couldn't sleep well the night before I actually went to see it.

The movie itself was enjoyable to me, but I just feel sad about the reception and box office it got now. Especially they are on the right track, I really don't want to see them give up.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I blame the previous setups, if we've got the solo movies of Flash and Aquaman before JL, things would have been totally different.


I've already stated my case on who/what is responsible for the JL box office debacle.  I even quoted another poster's analytics.  Doesn't matter anymore.  Could've, should've, would've always means one result... DIDN'T.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I've already stated my case on who/what is responsible for the JL box office debacle.  I even quoted another poster's analytics.  Doesn't matter anymore.  Could've, should've, would've always means one result... DIDN'T.


But I think it won't stop DCEU from keep going and getting better!

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I think that works perfectly fine in the comics, but I think the movie look works better in a modern and live-action setting. 
> 
> Maybe it could be a little more streamlined, but I don't think it's as unnecessarily bulky as it could be. Especially compared to other Superhero costumes or even the _Arrow_ suit.


The movie look is just too bulky and plastic-looking for my taste. I think I would even prefer something closer to the Rebirth costume design over it:

----------


## SuperiorIronman

It worked for the Arkham games but that one had context considering it was colder, heavy warzones, multiple assassins, lack of knowledge on Batman, and later finding that Batman has heavier weaponry. 

Slade probably should get a slimmer costume since that looks like a cosplayer.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I still want to see Brainiac.

Also can they recast Lex Luthor?

----------


## inisideguy

Actually with all this talk about JL or whatever. I prefer superhero movies that are solo with minimal guest star heros. Darknight, Winter Soldier, Iron man, MOS, Wonder Woman, ect than the big team up movies. Just me maybe. Watchman maybe the exception. Generally the big team up movies are more spectacle.

----------


## Frontier

> The movie look is just too bulky and plastic-looking for my taste. I think I would even prefer something closer to the Rebirth costume design over it:


I don't really see it being plastic. 

It is a little bulky, but I don't think it's as badly bulky as it could've been. It really just depends on how it looks in-motion for me. 



> It worked for the Arkham games but that one had context considering it was colder, heavy warzones, multiple assassins, lack of knowledge on Batman, and later finding that Batman has heavier weaponry. 
> 
> Slade probably should get a slimmer costume since that looks like a cosplayer.


I dunno, I think it makes his _Arrow_ costume look like cosplay, and I actually like his _Arrow_ costume  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Carabas

> The movie look is just too bulky and plastic-looking for my taste. I think I would even prefer something closer to the Rebirth costume design over it


Something that comicbook fans really need to get over: the real life fabrics and materials of a costume do not even remotely behave like the seemingly painted on chainmail and stuff from the comics.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Something that comicbook fans really need to get over: the real life fabrics and materials of a costume do not even remotely behave like the seemingly painted on chainmail and stuff from the comics.


I mean, they were able to make Spider-Man’s suit look spot on in Homecoming and most of the MCU looks are much more streamlined than the DCEU costumes.

----------


## Frontier

> I mean, they were able to make Spider-Man’s suit look spot on in Homecoming and most of the MCU looks are much more streamlined than the DCEU costumes.


Some costumes adapt better to film then others. 

I wouldn't say any of the MCU Avengers looks are that much more streamlined then the League's. I mean, I feel like they've progressively gotten more and more busy over time for certain Avengers. 

The Trinity's looks are still pretty streamlined and basic when you get right down to it. 

Flash might be a little too much but that was supposed to be a prototype costume. But I don't think it's less streamlined then some of Iron Man's armors. 

Cyborg is kind of an eyesore but he's also mostly CG.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I still want to see Brainiac.
> 
> Also can they recast Lex Luthor?


They can but they kind of doubled down on Eisenberg as Luthor.  I think that is a stubborn mistake similar to keeping Snyder on JL.   They wanted better reviews but kept a director who just created a critical bomb for the same franchise and doesn't have the best record with critics in recent years?  Eisenberg's Luthor was one of the more divisive parts of BvS.  They would have been wise to distance themselves from that for the sake of the future.  There is a fine line between being strong in your convictions and being unreasonably stubborn.  I think some of the decisions made for JL were the latter.




> Some costumes adapt better to film then others. 
> 
> I wouldn't say any of the MCU Avengers looks are that much more streamlined then the League's. I mean, I feel like they've progressively gotten more and more busy over time for certain Avengers. 
> 
> The Trinity's looks are still pretty streamlined and basic when you get right down to it. 
> 
> Flash might be a little too much but that was supposed to be a prototype costume. But I don't think it's less streamlined then some of Iron Man's armors.


A Flash costume with similar material and fit to Black Panther's suit would be fantastic.  I definitely hope they make sure that the JL costume is only a prototype... not that I think we'll be seeing Flash in the the theaters for a few years at best.

----------


## Frontier

> A Flash costume with similar material and fit to Black Panther's suit would be fantastic.  I definitely hope they make sure that the JL costume is only a prototype... not that I think we'll be seeing Flash in the the theaters for a few years at best.


The current TV suit is pretty comic-accurate, so something like that with firmer materials and as one suit would probably look pretty great on film  :Smile: .

----------


## Slowpokeking

> They can but they kind of doubled down on Eisenberg as Luthor.  I think that is a stubborn mistake similar to keeping Snyder on JL.   They wanted better reviews but kept a director who has had a grand total of two movies about 60% on RT and that last one was 7 years ago?!  Eisenberg's Luthor was one of the more divisive parts of BvS.  They would have been wise to distance themselves from that for the sake of the future.  There is a fine line between being strong in your convictions and there is being unreasonably stubborn.  I think some of the decisions made for JL were the latter.


I still think maybe the problem was the script and characterization, not the actor?

Also why Brainiac never got the chance to show up on the big screen? Superman 3, SR and MoS all once had plan to use him. He would have been the villain of Singer's sequel if WB didn't reboot. I also think if we get a MOS2, Brainiac would be the best choice for it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I still think maybe the problem was the script and characterization, not the actor?


No one knows what the exact problem was.  You can't really argue that he was divisive in the role whether you liked him or not.  One thing is almost certain... if you keep making divisive creative choices and don't learn to make adjustments and better choices,  things will eventually catch up to you.  That is how WB got to this point.  In the NFL no one cares about the kind of effort that a head coach or qb makes.  Winning is all that counts.  If you lose enough you will get fired or cut.  For WB winning is making money... preferably large amounts of it.  It isn't worth making these big budget movies if they are in danger of losing money or barely making any.  If WB wants to continue with this DC universe they need to make stronger choices with there directors and writers.  They seem to making the right choices with their heroes.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I blame the previous setups, if we've got the solo movies of Flash and Aquaman before JL, things would have been totally different.


Maybe.  If only because it would have put more distance between Batman v Superman and Justice League.  Wonder Woman generated some good will.  If Flash
and Aquaman were also a hit with the critics, most people have a short attention span, and the critics would have forgotten about BvS by then.  I think a lot of 
the critic's hate at JL is because BvS is still fresh in their minds. So they would give it negative reviews no matter the quality.  It might have gotten even worse
reviews if not for Wonder Woman.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> No one knows what the exact problem was.  You can't really argue that he was divisive in the role whether you liked him or not.  One thing is almost certain... if you keep making divisive creative choices and don't learn to make adjustments and better choices,  things will eventually catch up to you.  That is how WB got to this point.  In the NFL no one cares about the kind of effort that a head coach or qb makes.  Winning is all that counts.  If you lose enough you will get fired or cut.  For WB winning is making money... preferably large amounts of it.  It isn't worth making these big budget movies if they are in danger of losing money or barely making any.  If WB wants to continue with this DC universe they need to make stronger choices with there directors and writers.  They seem to making the right choices with their heroes.


I just think he doesn't act like the Luthor I would want to see, his motive and his actions remind me of Joker.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I still think Ares was a miscast, his true form should be some incredibly strong and handsome guy. Lupin was ok to play the disguise, but they need another one for the true form.

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau could have been a good hoice.

----------


## Random killer x

What I like about Marvel is they have a plan, they let the fans know what it is, and Marvel actually sticks with it. Assembling the Avengers or Thanos gathering the infinity stones. There is a clear path and people get excited because they know what to expect. Justice League did something similar at the end and now DC need to stick with the plan. I think the next few movies should be:

Aquaman
The Batman
Flash (not Flashpoint)
Man of Steel 2
Wonder Woman 2
Green Lantern Corps
Which then leads to the epic showdown established from the end of JL
Justice League 2

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Some costumes adapt better to film then others. 
> 
> I wouldn't say any of the MCU Avengers looks are that much more streamlined then the League's. I mean, I feel like they've progressively gotten more and more busy over time for certain Avengers. 
> 
> The Trinity's looks are still pretty streamlined and basic when you get right down to it. 
> 
> Flash might be a little too much but that was supposed to be a prototype costume. But I don't think it's less streamlined then some of Iron Man's armors. 
> 
> Cyborg is kind of an eyesore but he's also mostly CG.


I don't know if its so much that certain costumes are better suited to adaptation, but more so, how they choose to do it. Personally, I feel like there isn't anything about Spider-Man's costume that makes it inherently more suited for adaptation than Deathstroke's. Its just in how they decide to adapt it.

And I guess it is a little premature to make judgements about the DCEU's general aesthetics, but Flash's, Cyborg's, and I guess now Slade's looks demonstrate a predisposition for unnecessary armor.

----------


## kurenai24

> New pic of Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JoeManganiello/s...91587001024513


This is bulky, looks like the costume is made up of car metal scrapts and home depot supplies.

----------


## Carabas

> This is bulky, looks like the costume is made up of car metal scrapts and home depot supplies.


When has comic book Deathstroke not been bulky?

I mean, this is an ugly costume, but I don't think 'bulky' is valid criticism.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I just think he doesn't act like the Luthor I would want to see, his motive and his actions remind me of Joker.


His motives remind you of Joker? Bizarre.

----------


## kurenai24

> When has comic book Deathstroke not been bulky?
> 
> I mean, this is an ugly costume, but I don't think 'bulky' is valid criticism.


His Rebirth look doesn't look bulky, it looks sleek and stylized, and his earlier look in his first incarnation doesn't look bulky either although he does gain a huge amount of muscle that makes his him look "bulky" but that's still unrelated to the costume.

----------


## Barbatos666

Goes to show how much people have been soured by Snyder's vision. Almost everyone loved Deathstroke's Arkham Origins suit until it showed up in a Snyder film lol.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> Goes to show how much people have been soured by Snyder's vision. Almost everyone loved Deathstroke's Arkham Origins suit until it showed up in a Snyder film lol.


Really? I quite like the costume. The only thing I think is strange is that Joe doesn't look 'old' as Slade, but he has all that white hair. I do wish we got a big broadsword instead of a katana/ninja sword. 

Honestly the best DCEU costumes have come from Snyder's films and Wonder Woman. I can forgive Flash's suit because it's a prototype and it's grown on me, but Cyborg's look is just awful. But that's the only one. The worst DCEU costumes have come from Suicide Squad

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I still think maybe the problem was the script and characterization, not the actor?
> 
> Also why Brainiac never got the chance to show up on the big screen? Superman 3, SR and MoS all once had plan to use him. He would have been the villain of Singer's sequel if WB didn't reboot. I also think if we get a MOS2, Brainiac would be the best choice for it.


Well, the 70's and 80's movies probably didn't have the technology and/or money to do Brainiac properly. In the later iterations, I'm guessing the problem is that Brainiac is kind of a goofy character in a live action movie setting (bottled cities, the skull ship, being a space alien called "Brainiac"), and that translating all that stuff to something that works outside of a comic book or cartoon TV series is much trickier than just using Luthor (one of the most well known fictional villains of all time) or Zod (who's whole deal and backstory you basically get for free if you're showing Superman's origin on Krypton).

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> How does Marvel keep those budgets in line? Thor Ragnarok lists 180 million dollars. Even without reshoots we are talking 275 million for JL. Man of Steel cost 225 million. Perhaps this is why 668 million appeared middling. Otherwise its a good figure. 
> 
> Such huge numbers means there's risk of failing to break even in case of a failure which is a possibilty. Not all Marvel films are spectacular successes. Some do businesses in 500-600 million range. They manage to turn in a hefty profit.
> 
> DC shall learn to keep budgets under control. Its possible.


This is a very good point. If we presuppose that the special effects and CGI are the biggest costs for blockbuster movies, and compare Man of Steel to Ragnarok, I really don't think WB are getting their money's worth. Sure, the final battle in MoS looks amazing from a technical perspective while a few scenes in Ragnarok look kind of so-so (I haven't seen JL yet, so can't make any comparisons there), but it's only for fleeting moments that most people won't notice or care about. And even if they do, If WB are paying $75 million just to get that small extra level of CGI quality, it's just a poor use of resources.

----------


## Confuzzled

Ragnarok didn't have as many locations as Man of Steel and used much more studio green screen instead. Multiple location shooting costs a good sum as well. I think Ragnarok also got tax cuts from the Sakaar scenes shot in Australia.

----------


## Carabas

> DC shall learn to keep budgets under control. Its possible.


Evidence suggests it's only possible when they don't have much faith in the movie, like with Wonder Woman. 
I'm assuming Wonder Woman 2 will have a 250 mill budget and fall flat on its face due to micro-managing (and of course it'll get blamed on it being a female-driven movie).

----------


## Confuzzled

> Evidence suggests it's only possible when they don't have much faith in the movie, like with Wonder Woman. 
> I'm assuming Wonder Woman 2 will have a 250 mill budget and fall flat on its face due to micro-managing (and of course it'll get blamed on it being a female-driven movie).


That almost sounds like wishful thinking to me.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Man of Steel had quite a bit of product placement that drove it's official budget down below the reported $225 I believe. Man of Steel reportedly made more profit than BvS.

Dang, its like Groundhog day here. Every single day the costs of DC movies, Zack Snyder, etc. are brought up.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Goes to show how much people have been soured by Snyder's vision. Almost everyone loved Deathstroke's Arkham Origins suit until it showed up in a Snyder film lol.


Not really. Just because you like it, doesn't mean you like it best, or think it would translate well to live action. Also the Rebirth costume wasn't a thing when Arkham Origins came out.

There's also the fact that that suit has too much going on to allow him, or a stunt double, to do practical stunts and complex choreography. Especially if Gareth Evans ends up doing his Deathstroke movie.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> His motives remind you of Joker? Bizarre.


In my opinion, Lex is evil but he does bad things for his profit, he could even work with the good guys when needed. What does he benefit from killing Superman? In the deleted scene it makes more sense because he was controlled by Steppenwolf.

The Joker does bad things for absolute chaos.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

So it looks like around $40 million for JL's second weekend.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> In my opinion, Lex is evil but he does bad things for his profit, he could even work with the good guys when needed. What does he benefit from killing Superman? In the deleted scene it makes more sense because he was controlled by Steppenwolf.
> 
> The Joker does bad things for absolute chaos.


Profit isn't Lex's mainstay motif, it's an anti-alien philosophy driven by ego. "Control" by Steppenwolf is also a stretched inference IMO.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Profit isn't Lex's mainstay motif, it's an anti-alien philosophy driven by ego. "Control" by Steppenwolf is also a stretched inference IMO.


He worked with a lot of aliens before, even Superman.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Not really. Just because you like it, doesn't mean you like it best, or think it would translate well to live action. Also the Rebirth costume wasn't a thing when Arkham Origins came out.
> 
> There's also the fact that that suit has too much going on to allow him, or a stunt double, to do practical stunts and complex choreography. Especially if Gareth Evans ends up doing his Deathstroke movie.


What does the Rebirth costume have to do with Arkham Origins. The AO costume is incredibly popular, people dont like the one in JL because of the Snyder taint that's how I see it. The Arrow version is bulkier, the New 52 suit is bulkier, the traditional suit is busy as well. The Rebirth suit is too recent to be in anything.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Actually JL did not make $40 million this weekend.  It made $60 million... giving it far better legs than BvS even though BVS made more in its opening weekend that JL has made in two.

----------


## jertz666

Question :  Do you guys think the trailers and posters hurt the film's boxoffice prospects?

My first reaction when the trailer came out:  My god, this movie is butt ugly.   Not only are the  costumes unattractive individually, they also lack a certain consistency  taken as a whole.   There's no color coordination at work,  no attempt to match textures.     It's the same with the cinematography.    

I thought my reaction would be typical until I started reading the comments:   "Best trailer ever !"  "MCU RIP" , "This movie is going to rock!"   ...something along those lines.   I know there were plenty of negative reactions too ... one podcaster,  reacting to the trailer, described Snyder films as "ugly" and "eyesores" with questionable palette choices... but they were overwhelmed by the positive ones.

Then came the reviews.      Here's one you can see at rotten tomatoes: "Like everything Snyder directs, it is an ungainly looking sludgefest of gloopy CGI and dull, dirt-hued backdrops cut with neon glare."  (Sunday Independent (Ireland) )  And, now that we have the first weekend numbers,  I now think that my reaction to the trailers and posters were much more prevalent among casual moviegoers.   DC fans and Snyder fans will show up no matter what but I think casual movie fans were probably turned off by the marketing.  It also failed to attract casual fans who got burned by BvS:   "Sure it's got jokes now .. but it's even uglier than the previous film." 

What do you guys think of the film's overall visual aesthetic?  Do you think the marketing material turned away the average moviegoer?    If you weren't  a DC fan, would the trailers and posters convince you to watch the movie?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Question :  Do you guys think the trailers and posters hurt the film's boxoffice prospects?
> 
> My first reaction when the trailer came out:  My god, this movie is butt ugly.   Not only are the  costumes unattractive individually, they also lack a certain consistency  taken as a whole.   There's no color coordination at work,  no attempt to match textures.     It's the same with the cinematography.    
> 
> I thought my reaction would be typical until I started reading the comments:   "Best trailer ever !"  "MCU RIP" , "This movie is going to rock!"   ...something along those lines.   I know there were plenty of negative reactions too ... one podcaster,  reacting to the trailer, described Snyder films as "ugly" and "eyesores" with questionable palette choices... but they were overwhelmed by the positive ones.
> 
> Then came the reviews.      Here's one you can see at rotten tomatoes: "Like everything Snyder directs, it is an ungainly looking sludgefest of gloopy CGI and dull, dirt-hued backdrops cut with neon glare."  (Sunday Independent (Ireland) )  And, now that we have the first weekend numbers,  I now think that my reaction to the trailers and posters were much more prevalent among casual moviegoers.   DC fans and Snyder fans will show up no matter what but I think casual movie fans were probably turned off by the marketing.  It also failed to attract casual fans who got burned by BvS:   "Sure it's got jokes now .. but it's even uglier than the previous film." 
> 
> What do you guys think of the film's overall visual aesthetic?  Do you think the marketing material turned away the average moviegoer?    If you weren't  a DC fan, would the trailers and posters convince you to watch the movie?


BVS had great trailer, you know Zack is so good at shooting some amazing scenes.

----------


## maxmcco

> Actually JL did not make $40 million this weekend.  It made $60 million... giving it far better legs than BvS even though BVS made more in its opening weekend that JL has made in two.


It's estimated that JL made $40,730,000 this weekend. If you include Wednesday and Thursday, it's estimated at $61,700,000. Still, much improved followup numbers than BvS and SS.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's estimated that JL made $40,730,000 this weekend. If you include Wednesday and Thursday, it's estimated at $61,700,000. Still, much improved followup numbers that BvS.


That is what I meant.  The Thanksgiving weekend.  Kind of shows that WOM does help... but it still is difficult to make up for that clunker of an opening weekend.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Well, the 70's and 80's movies probably didn't have the technology and/or money to do Brainiac properly. In the later iterations, I'm guessing the problem is that Brainiac is kind of a goofy character in a live action movie setting (bottled cities, the skull ship, being a space alien called "Brainiac"), and that translating all that stuff to something that works outside of a comic book or cartoon TV series is much trickier than just using Luthor (one of the most well known fictional villains of all time) or Zod (who's whole deal and backstory you basically get for free if you're showing Superman's origin on Krypton).


DCAU did a good job on him.

If even Ultron could make a success, I don't see how Brainiac can't.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It's estimated that JL made $40,730,000 this weekend. If you include Wednesday and Thursday, it's estimated at $61,700,000. Still, much improved followup numbers than BvS and SS.


I think it would be safe to make profit if the US box office could reach 250M.

Still the budget shouldn't have been that high. If it was like 250M we would have safe to assume it's profitable now.

----------


## jertz666

> BVS had great trailer, you know Zack is so good at shooting some amazing scenes.



The BvS trailer(s) had a number of strikingly composed shots. ...  Superman hovering midair while someone with outstretched hands reaches out to him. .... Superman brooding while people with face paint try to touch him ... Superman catching and bringing down a rocket.. maybe a few more.     The MoS trailer was even better.   The JL trailer did not have anything particularly striking.    Besides the humor, the clunky costumes left the most impression.    Unfortunately, it had to follow the Thor Ragnarok trailer which left quite an impression.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The BvS trailer(s) had a number of strikingly composed shots. ...  Superman hovering midair while someone with outstretched hands reaches out to him. .... Superman brooding while people with face paint try to touch him ... Superman catching and bringing down a rocket.. maybe a few more.     The MoS trailer was even better.   The JL trailer did not have anything particularly striking.    Besides the humor, the clunky costumes left the most impression.    Unfortunately, it had to follow the Thor Ragnarok trailer which left quite an impression.


Obviously Whedon made those trailers.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> It's estimated that JL made $40,730,000 this weekend. If you include Wednesday and Thursday, it's estimated at $61,700,000. Still, much improved followup numbers than BvS and SS.


I'm all for being positive but...
Its not a good thing unless JL starts having an amazing surge where it suffers no drops right up until star wars its BO is a straight up failure
Justice League will be operating behind BvS and Suicide Squad by a hefty margin and is likely to not make as much money as either film which is saying something as Suicide Squad didn't even get a chinese release

----------


## Buried Alien

> The BvS trailer(s) had a number of strikingly composed shots. ...  Superman hovering midair while someone with outstretched hands reaches out to him. .... Superman brooding while people with face paint try to touch him ... Superman catching and bringing down a rocket.. maybe a few more.     The MoS trailer was even better.   The JL trailer did not have anything particularly striking.    Besides the humor, the clunky costumes left the most impression.    Unfortunately, it had to follow the Thor Ragnarok trailer which left quite an impression.


The RAGNAROK promo material left me with the impression that Marvel was oddly trying to pursue a cheap 80s/early 90s fantasy movie aesthetic.   :Big Grin: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I'm all for being positive but...
> Its not a good thing unless JL starts having an amazing surge where it suffers no drops right up until star wars its BO is a straight up failure
> Justice League will be operating behind BvS and Suicide Squad by a hefty margin and is likely to not make as much money as either film which is saying something as Suicide Squad didn't even get a chinese release


After this weekend there is no escaping that JL is a box office failure.  There was no recovering from that opening weekend unless this weekend was in the $70 million range for just the standard weekend.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> After this weekend there is no escaping that JL is a box office failure.  There was no recovering from that opening weekend unless this weekend was in the $70 million range for just the standard weekend.


How much does it need to break even?

----------


## Jokerz79

> BVS had great trailer, you know Zack is so good at shooting some amazing scenes.


I use to think that until I realized it seems like 80% of his films after Dawn of the Dead are CGI and now I give more credit to the special effects people then him.

----------


## Slowpokeking

DCEU already started late, what you needed is to form up the team and build up the setup. But instead we got

A Superman feared and mistrusted by a lot of ppl, had to die to win ppl back

A Middle Aged, less reasonable Batman who actually wants to kill Superman

A Wonder Woman who had abandoned humanity for decades(obviously that was the original plan).

Seriously? Seriously? Do you really think that's what DCEU needed when the first priority was to form the team, not to create further tension?

----------


## jertz666

> Obviously Whedon made those trailers.


Justice League Official Comic-Con Trailer - July 23, 2016    
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIHH5-HVS9o

Zack Snyder's daughter Autumn Snyder passes away on March 20, 2017

First official trailer released March 25, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cxixDgHUYw

First report of Zack Snyder's exit from the film to be replaced by Joss Whedon -  May 22, 2017
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ragedy-1006455

Note : The film's visual style and costumes were already established in the July 2016 trailer.    So if "Obviously Whedon made those trailers," then I'd like to borrow his time machine.

----------


## jertz666

> How much does it need to break even?


Here's a Forbes article claiming that WB could lose 50M to 100M on the movie.   There's a lot of math involved.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain.../#70e3293d5d8b

Now, I'm not sure what to make of it but there's some reaction online and on youtube on the article.

----------


## Frontier

> Profit isn't Lex's mainstay motif, it's an anti-alien philosophy driven by ego. "Control" by Steppenwolf is also a stretched inference IMO.


Well, sometimes Luthor's just out for a profit, even if in the back of his head he's probably spinning said profit in a way he can use against Superman.

----------


## jertz666

> The RAGNAROK promo material left me with the impression that Marvel was oddly trying to pursue a cheap 80s/early 90s fantasy movie aesthetic.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Right, they're definitely aiming for something different.   Here are the typical reaction of friends who are mostly non-comicbook readers but who do watch most superhero films.

Thor : "Wow, did you see that woman with antlers on her head break Thor's hammer?"

JL: "Is that supposed to be Aquaman?   Why does he look like a hobo?"

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> How much does it need to break even?


I think it is like $600+ worldwide.  I think...

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The RAGNAROK promo material left me with the impression that Marvel was oddly trying to pursue a cheap 80s/early 90s fantasy movie aesthetic.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


The reality of the situation is somewhere in between.  A few here claim a "Marvel movies suck" bias while worshipping at the temple of Snyder and then there is the polar opposite.  Neither is right IMO and both extremes should be equally dismissed.  The more reasonable individuals aren't are on either side of those extremes.  The WB conspiracy against Snyder is one of the most ridiculous claims.  It is always easy to make claims when you can't back them up.  The BvS UE isn't evidence of this.  It is only evidence that WB panicked after seeing the cut and had him edit a shorter cut.  That isn't a conspiracy against Snyder.  That is concern over what he had done with their product.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Well, sometimes Luthor's just out for a profit, even if in the back of his head he's probably spinning said profit in a way he can use against Superman.


True, still a businessman. I just don’t think it’s his villain motivation.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The reality of the situation is somewhere in between.  A few here claim a "Marvel movies suck" bias while worshipping at the temple of Snyder and then there is the polar opposite.  Neither is right IMO and both extremes should be equally dismissed.  The more reasonable individuals aren't are on either side of those extremes.  The WB conspiracy against Snyder is one of the most ridiculous claims.  It is always easy to make claims when you can't back them up.  The BvS UE isn't evidence of this.  It is only evidence that WB panicked after seeing the cut and had him edit a shorter cut.  That isn't a conspiracy against Snyder.  That is concern over what he had done with their product.


And yet one of those cuts was skewered by the critics and the other one was deemed......imperfect, but vastly superior to WB's attempt to "fix" the movie. 

It may not be a conspiracy, but it's a heck of an indicator that the suits at WB don't know nearly as much about making a successful CBM as they like to think they do. The way they did the same thing to SS and now JL only reinforces that. The fact that they ALMOST screwed over WW, too.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> True, still a businessman. I just don’t think it’s his villain motivation.


I think that is, he has prejudice on aliens, but overall "you have messed up my dirty plan" was the major reason for him to go against the heroes. He had worked with aliens(both good and bad) many many times. Business is business.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I think that is, he has prejudice on aliens, but overall "you have messed up my dirty plan" was the major reason for him to go against the heroes. He had worked with aliens(both good and bad) many many times. Business is business.


His original motivation was "You inadvertently caused me to lose my hair! Diiiiiiieeeee!"

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> And yet one of those cuts was skewered by the critics and the other one was deemed......imperfect, but vastly superior to WB's attempt to "fix" the movie. 
> 
> It may not be a conspiracy, but it's a heck of an indicator that the suits at WB don't know nearly as much about making a successful CBM as they like to think they do. The way they did the same thing to SS and now JL only reinforces that. The fact that they ALMOST screwed over WW, too.


It was better without a doubt.  Yet it still shared the same parts and characters (Knightmare, Eisenberg Luthor, Bad Doomsday CG, slow pace in the first half, badly timed JL Easter eggs) that many didn't like in the theatrical cut.  So to think that the general public and the majority of critics would suddenly say, "this is a masterpiece" is rather unrealistic.  Again I'm not saying that WB was right.  The UE would have been better received critically, but I doubt it would have scored higher with critics and audiences than MOS which scored close to double BvS ... and I liked MOS.  WB lost faith in Snyder's vision after BvS... and Terrio's writing.  That is their right  based on the results.  Their biggest mistake was keeping Snyder in an effort to keep a release date while micro managing the production process.

Some people have valiantly claimed, "what proof do you have that WB was disappointed in BvS?"  Well... the production drama on JL basically proves that.  Otherwise why would have they changed anything if they had so much faith in Snyder's vision or were happy with BvS or the reviews of the BvS UE?

----------


## Buried Alien

> His original motivation was "You inadvertently caused me to lose my hair! Diiiiiiieeeee!"


I've often wondered how Silver Age Lex Luthor, whose scientific genius could build a time machine from orange juice cans, couldn't devise a cure for his own baldness.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It was better without a doubt.  Yet it still shared the same parts and characters (Knightmare, Eisenberg Luthor, Bad Doomsday CG, slow pace in the first half, badly timed JL Easter eggs) that many didn't like in the theatrical cut.  So to think that the general public and the majority of critics would suddenly say, "this is a masterpiece" is rather unrealistic.  Again I'm not saying that WB was right.  The UE would have been better received critically, but I doubt it would have scored higher with critics and audiences than MOS which scored close to double BvS ... and I liked MOS.  WB lost faith in Snyder's vision after BvS.  That is their right  based on the results.  Their biggest mistake was keeping Snyder in an effort to keep a release date while micro managing the production process.


Who said anything about "a masterpiece?" It didn't need to be called a masterpiece to be better received. All it needed to do was get more critics to say "It's an enjoyable movie and worth seeing." And it would have done better all around. No reason at all to lose faith in Snyder then.

They lost faith in Snyder because THEY messed up his movie. It's more their fault than anyone else's.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It was better without a doubt.  Yet it still shared the same parts and characters (Knightmare, Eisenberg Luthor, Bad Doomsday CG, slow pace in the first half, badly timed JL Easter eggs) that many didn't like in the theatrical cut.  So to think that the general public and the majority of critics would suddenly say, "this is a masterpiece" is rather unrealistic.  Again I'm not saying that WB was right.  The UE would have been better received critically, but I doubt it would have scored higher with critics and audiences than MOS which scored close to double BvS ... and I liked MOS.  WB lost faith in Snyder's vision after BvS... and Terrio's writing.  That is their right  based on the results.  Their biggest mistake was keeping Snyder in an effort to keep a release date while micro managing the production process.
> 
> Some people have valiantly claimed, "what proof do you have that WB was disappointed in BvS?"  Well... the production drama on JL basically proves that.  Otherwise why would have they changed anything if they had so much faith in Snyder's vision or were happy with BvS or the reviews of the BvS UE?


And the obvious soft retcon of the WW movie proved it.

However, I don't think Whedon is the choice for JL either.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Who said anything about "a masterpiece?" It didn't need to be called a masterpiece to be better received. All it needed to do was get more critics to say "It's an enjoyable movie and worth seeing." And it would have done better all around. No reason at all to lose faith in Snyder then.
> 
> They lost faith in Snyder because THEY messed up his movie. It's more their fault than anyone else's.


Other Snyder defenders (maybe not you) have called BvS a masterpiece.  We'll never know but I would bet that the BvS UE wouldn't have scored higher than MOS and it needed to given MOS's divisive response.  So to say it would have done more than 10% better sales wise with less showings would be a stretch. They lost faith in Snyder because they didn't like his BvS UE... they didn't think it was what it should have been.  It is their fault for keeping him on JL.  Snyder showing them a JL cut that they didn't like is on Snyder.  They weren't obligated to like what he showed.   Of course you don't think it is Snyder's fault at all... you are one the biggest Snyder defenders.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Other Snyder defenders (maybe not you) have called BvS a masterpiece.  They lost faith in Snyder because they didn't like his BvS UE... they didn't think it was what it should have been.  It is their fault for keeping him on JL.  Snyder showing them a JL cut that they didn't like is on Snyder.


Yep, and why didn't they push back the JL project?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yep, and why didn't they push back the JL project?


Supposedly because they didn't want to look bad by pushing back the release date.  It would have been seen as the ultimate reaction to BvS.  If they pushed it back and went with a different director it would have probably needed more rewrites and all the additional baggage.  Another mistake was starting JL on the heels of BvS's release.  Another drawback to announcing so much so soon.  They aren't like Marvel who are almost machine like with their schedule.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Supposedly because they didn't want to look bad by pushing back the release date.  It would have been seen as the ultimate reaction to BvS.  If they pushed it back and went with a different director it would have probably needed more rewrites and all the additional baggage.  Another mistake was starting JL on the heels of BvS's release.  Another drawback to announcing so much so soon.  They aren't like Marvel who are almost machine like with their schedule.


Then they shouldn't have pushed back BVS for nearly a year, which further wasted DCEU's time.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Then they shouldn't have pushed back BVS for nearly a year, which further wasted DCEU's time.


There is no denying the missteps.  Whedon definitely wasn't the answer for JL.  I stated back when the Whedon reshoots began that with the two directors the movie could be "good" at best and "great" was unlikely.  Maybe they'll ease up on these other announcements?  Maybe not.  I strongly feel like Batgirl, Nightwing, Shazam and Black Adam should no longer be priorities.  The individual movies for these JL characters should be the priority over anything else.  At this point in time I'll be excited to see Aquaman because I loved that Atlantis scene and Wan is a well respected director with a good track record.  Everything else is in the relatively distant future so there isn't much to get excited for.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> There is no denying the missteps.  Whedon definitely wasn't the answer for JL.  I stated back when the Whedon reshoots began that with the two directors the movie could be "good" at best and "great" was unlikely.  Maybe they'll ease up on these other announcements?  Maybe not.  I strongly feel like Batgirl, Nightwing, Shazam and Black Adam should no longer be priorities.  The individual movies for these JL characters should be the priority over anything else.  At this point in time I'll be excited to see Aquaman because I loved that Atlantis scene and Wan is well respected director with a good track record.  Everything else is in the relatively distant future so there (if) so there isn't much to get excited for.


Can't they just get Geoff Johns to oversee the project?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Can't they just get Geoff Johns to oversee the project?


WB is more like Disney than Marvel.  Fiege now oversees Marvel without much interference from Disney.  I don't want to say it is mpossible but I doubt that he will ever have Fiege type control.  Hell... I don't even think he has the level of power that D'Esposito has.  Aquaman is already finished filming with Wan.  The Batman will be under Matt Reeves' trustworthy control.  Jenkins looks perfect for WW.  The Flash movie could be in trouble because of JL's sales.  I'll believe it will be happening when they announce its director and writer... not just a release date (if they do.).  These standalones seem to be the future of the DCU until we are shown (not told) otherwise.  At this rate I'd be shocked to see JL2 planned at all before 2022

----------


## Slowpokeking

> WB is more like Disney than Marvel.  Fiege now oversees Marvel without much interference from Disney.  I don't want to say it is mpossible but I doubt that he will ever have Fiege type control.  Hell... I don't even think he has the level of power that D'Esposito has.  Aquaman is already finished filming with Wan.  The Batman will be under Matt Reeves' trustworthy control.  Jenkins looks perfect for WW.  The Flash movie could be in trouble because of JL's sales.  I'll believe it will be happening when they announce its director and writer... not just a release date (if they do.).  These standalones seem to be the future of the DCU until we are shown (not told) otherwise.  At this rate I'd be shocked to see JL2 planned at all before 2022


That's sad, I really want to see more JL movies.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Other Snyder defenders (maybe not you) have called BvS a masterpiece.  We'll never know but I would bet that the BvS UE wouldn't have scored higher than MOS and it needed to given MOS's divisive response.  So to say it would have done more than 10% better sales wise with less showings would be a stretch. They lost faith in Snyder because they didn't like his BvS UE... they didn't think it was what it should have been.  It is their fault for keeping him on JL.  Snyder showing them a JL cut that they didn't like is on Snyder.  They weren't obligated to like what he showed.   Of course you don't think it is Snyder's fault at all... you are one the biggest Snyder defenders.


I would say WB is at fault for pushing to BvS, and JL, rather than finishing out the MoS trilogy. This version of Superman never had a full, and complete arc.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> The fact that they ALMOST screwed over WW, too.


This isn't true. Read here: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09...no-mans-scene/

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> That's sad, I really want to see more JL movies.


I totally left out Superman and I think Superman does have momentum after JL.  They should take advantage of it.  You never know but I strongly doubt that JL2 is very high on WB's priority list.  I think they need the standalones to get people excited about a JL2 now.  Double downing on Eisenberg as Luthor for the Injustice  Society is really risky after BvS.  Stubborn hasn't helped WB so far... but it hasn't stopped them yet.  The smart choice might be to distance themselves from the less well received parts of this universe.  No one cared that Storm didn't have an accent in X2... it didn't need explaining.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I totally left out Superman and I think Superman does have momentum after JL.  They should take advantage of it.  You never know but I strongly doubt that JL2 is very high on WB's priority list.  I think they need the standalones to get people excited about a JL2 now.  Double downing on Eisenberg as Luthor for the Injustice  Society is really risky after BvS.  Stubborn hasn't helped WB so far... but it hasn't stopped them yet.  The smart choice might be to distance themselves from the less well received parts of this universe.  No one cared that Storm didn't have an accent in X2... it didn't need explaining.


Aquaman, Flash, MoS2 and WW2, then we are ok to have JL2.

----------


## inisideguy

> I totally left out Superman and I think Superman does have momentum after JL.  They should take advantage of it.  You never know but I strongly doubt that JL2 is very high on WB's priority list.  I think they need the standalones to get people excited about a JL2 now.  Double downing on Eisenberg as Luthor for the Injustice  Society is really risky after BvS.  Stubborn hasn't helped WB so far... but it hasn't stopped them yet.  The smart choice might be to distance themselves from the less well received parts of this universe.  No one cared that Storm didn't have an accent in X2... it didn't need explaining.


Eisenburg can be the best luthor ever. Its all about how they write him.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Aquaman, Flash, MoS2 and WW2, then we are ok to have JL2.


I'd add Matt Reeves' Batman solo with or without Affleck. Maybe Deathstroke orchestrating an Arkham breakout? Anyway, I'm ready to wait for 4 years for JL2 if I get some impressive solos first.




> Eisenburg can be the best luthor ever. Its all about how they write him.


True. I see him as still learning the supervillain ropes but he has great potential. It would be fun to have him interact with other, more experienced villains and learn from them/prove to be more lethal than them.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Eisenburg can be the best luthor ever. Its all about how they write him.


I haven't read the BvS script in all honesty.  Have you?  Did it say in the script that he acts overly neurotic?  I'm not being snarky if it sounds that way.  Honest question.  I was a fan of Terrio after Argo.  After BvS and JL... I'm not watching anything that he writes unless I'm at the premiere. I actually like BvS and JL and I don't see the writing as a strength in either movie.




> I'd add Matt Reeves' Batman solo with or without Affleck. Maybe Deathstroke orchestrating an Arkham breakout? Anyway, I'm ready to wait for 4 years for JL2 if I get some impressive solos first.


I think Matt Reeves Batman is almost a safer bet than Aquaman to continue past a single movie.  First of all, it is Batman.  Secondly, without Affleck it will have a fresh disconnect from recent movies.  Matt Reeves is also arguably a more proven epic storyteller than Wan.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Aquaman, Flash, MoS2 and WW2, then we are ok to have JL2.


I wouldn't rule out the possibility of two Reeves' Batman movies coming out before Flash or JL2.  Gotham City Sirens would be  a welcome addition and it might not cost too much, but I hope they put Suicide Squad, JL Dark and even GL Corps at the back of the line.  I think they should get the characters that they currently have onscreen right before just throwing anything to the wall.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think Matt Reeves Batman is almost a safer bet than Aquaman to continue past a single movie.  First of all, it is Batman.  Secondly, without Affleck it will have a fresh disconnect from recent movies.  Matt Reeves is also arguably a more proven epic storyteller than Wan.


Wan's work has much more blockbuster appeal to it though. It's kind of a tie I think. As long as both filmmakers bring their A-Game to their respective projects instead of making an uncommon misstep (not impossible with the DCEU's luck  :EEK!: ).




> I wouldn't rule out the possibility of two Reeves' Batman movies coming out before Flash or JL2.  Gotham City Sirens would be  a welcome addition and it might not cost too much, but I hope they put Suicide Squad, JL Dark and even GL Corps at the back of the line.  I think they should get the characters that they currently have onscreen right before just throwing anything to the wall.


Sirens, Batgirl, Nightwing, SS2 can all exist as lower budget films in uncommon release months (February, April, August, October etc.) Hopefully Sony doesn't try to crowd those dates with their own Spider-Man spin-offs nobody asked for.

----------


## Barbatos666

Hey I'm looking forward to Venom, it has Tom FREAKING Hardy. Wish they'd get him back for Bane, yeah I said it.

----------


## Confuzzled

Venom if it comes out on the planned date should avoid the DCEU "Phase 2" rush so that's the exception. It's Silver & Black that is the one film the DCEU, especially Gotham City Sirens, should watch out for. The way the director described it sounded pretty much the same as Harley & Ivy dynamics.

----------


## Barbatos666

So it turns out that petition for the extended cut has fake signatures, seriously.

----------


## Naked Bat

> I find it interesting how the double standards exist for other heroes. Superman is suppose to be almost Jesus like due to 80 years or whatever of writing. No divergence. I grew up reading Marvel, Iron man and Captain America didn't kill people. They kill people like cannon fodder in the films. No one blinks an eye.





> Its odd. Iron man torches people in an almost non chalaunt way.  He didn't do that in the comics.  Cap has killed more people than I can count. His body count in winter solider is huge. There isn't any moral outrage with this.





> No you have just decided that superman is some perfect symbol. Marvel heroes were not written the way they are portrayed in the movies. Cap didn't just kick people off of bridges and helicarriers to die. The leeway given to other heroes is remarkable.


And don't forget some people are claiming MCU Cap is more Superman than DCEU Superman, when the dude did more than questionnable stuff in his third outing because he knew better than others. 

Double standards indeed.

----------


## Jokerz79

> And don't forget some people are claiming MCU Cap is more Superman than DCEU Superman, when the dude did more than questionnable stuff in his third outing because he knew better than others. 
> 
> Double standards indeed.


Before the year 2000 and X-Men Marvel really only had 3 visible characters to the general public.

1: Hulk thanks to his TV show.

2: Captain America due to his cultural standing and some bad serials and movies.

3: Spider-Man due to him being basically the face of Marvel and their most popular character for decades and having many cartoons and a failed live action show.

But out of those 3 only Hulk did people know any real details about thanks to the TV show. Spider-Man was a Macy Thanksgiving Day Parade float and some might know the character to be jokey that's about it and many knew next to nothing about Captain America except who he was when shown but no actual details about the character.

Compare that to DC and I mean in particular the DC Trinity Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.

My late grandfather was born in 1922 he never read DC comics as a kid neither did my mum but they knew those characters due to Radio, TV, and Film. They didn't only know them they knew things about them they knew Superman was from Krypton, worked at the Daily Planet, and had a love interest in fellow reporter Lois Lane and friends Jimmy Olsen and Perry White. They knew Batman's origin and Dick Grayson was Robin and Alfred and Commissioner Gordon. They knew about Wonder Woman and being an Amazon they knew those characters and did for decades the DC Trinity are a part of Americana they're like Baseball and Apple Pie to the general public in America. It's their legacy and some might say their curse most Marvel characters are blank slates to the general public so they'll accept any version the MCU puts out but people have expectations for the DC Trinity for better or for worse and if you don't meet those expectations they won't watch.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Before the year 2000 and X-Men Marvel really only had 3 visible characters to the general public.
> 
> 1: Hulk thanks to his TV show.
> 
> 2: Captain America due to his cultural standing and some bad serials and movies.
> 
> 3: Spider-Man due to him being basically the face of Marvel and their most popular character for decades and having many cartoons and a failed live action show.
> 
> But out of those 3 only Hulk did people know any real details about thanks to the TV show. Spider-Man was a Macy Thanksgiving Day Parade float and some might know the character to be jokey that's about it and many knew next to nothing about Captain America except who he was when shown but no actual details about the character.
> ...


You’re forgetting about the Fantastic Four and the X-Men, the latter of which pretty much ruled the 90s. But Spider-Man also had been a pop culture phenomenon since the 60s.

But I’m not so sure people are just willing to accept any version of Marvel characters. There were people who got very upset over choices made in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Whether they were right to be upset is another story, but it does demonstrate that at least Spider-Man carries enough cultural significance that people have an impression of who these characters should be. I think it just boils down to how they do it. Homecoming was a well-done film, so whatever gripes people had with it could be overlooked.

----------


## Jokerz79

> You’re forgetting about the Fantastic Four and the X-Men, the latter of which pretty much ruled the 90s. But Spider-Man also had been a pop culture phenomenon since the 60s.
> 
> But I’m not so sure people are just willing to accept any version of Marvel characters. There were people who got very upset over choices made in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Whether they were right to be upset is another story, but it does demonstrate that at least Spider-Man carries enough cultural significance that people have an impression of who these characters should be. I think it just boils down to how they do it. Homecoming was a well-done film, so whatever gripes people had with it could be overlooked.


Until the films while people I knew heard the names but didn't know who the X-Men or FF were unless they read comics or a kid in the 90's and watched the Cartoons. I mean until the 90's the FF had two cartoons which totalled 33 episodes in 25 years and one cartoon didn't have Johnny. Oh and Thing had a hanna Barbera cartoon about him as a teenager with magic rings and giving powers by doing his "Thing Thing". So yeah outside of comics readers I knew people who knew names but not really who they were. While they knew Hulk, Spider-Man, and Cap they didn't know much but could point them out.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Until the films while people I knew heard the names but didn't know who the X-Men or FF were unless they read comics or a kid in the 90's and watched the Cartoons. I mean until the 90's the FF had two cartoons which totalled 33 episodes in 25 years and one cartoon didn't have Johnny. Oh and Thing had a hanna Barbera cartoon about him as a teenager with magic rings and giving powers by doing his "Thing Thing". So yeah outside of comics readers I knew people who knew names but not really who they were. While they knew Hulk, Spider-Man, and Cap they didn't know much but could point them out.


Yeah, the cartoons are what I was talking about. Before I ever picked up a comic, I knew who Professor X and Wolverine and Storm and the like were and I knew what mutants were. This was way before I knew the difference between DC and Marvel and I always wondered why Batman and Superman never met up with any mutants themselves in their own cartoons.

----------


## Lightning Rider

JL climbing to 500 mill worldwide

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yeah, the cartoons are what I was talking about. Before I ever picked up a comic, I knew who Professor X and Wolverine and Storm and the like were and I knew what mutants were. This was way before I knew the difference between DC and Marvel and I always wondered why Batman and Superman never met up with any mutants themselves in their own cartoons.


DC got much better cartoon overall.

----------


## odinson011

Honestly DCEU should do way better job with these heroes. Even Justice League movie was a mess and i was waiting for it for months.
It was nice to see all these great superheroes on screen at the same time in the same team but they didn't build up to it. So i couldn't feel a real connection towards them.
http://www.crazzycomics.com/top-3-re...ue-was-a-mess/

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## manofsteel1979

What needs to happen is WB needs to find that balance that sort of meets the expectations of who these characters are to the public in general while continuing to evolve them. While it's true people have preconceived notions of Supes, Bats and ( to a lesser extent) Wonder Woman, we also can't allow that preconceived notion to drive how these characters are handled, Because if you aren't careful, they become irrelevant. Hell, you could argue that it's happening with Superman. To many, the Chris Reeve version from the Donner film is the be all end all. Never mind the character existed for 40 years prior to that version, the Donner version is the gold standard fo better or worse sadly, and I think it's neigh impossible to pry the character away from that or slowly pivot from that version without a very vocal segment of fandom and the general public crying foul and judging it as " not my Superman.".

----------


## Slowpokeking

> What needs to happen is WB needs to find that balance that sort of meets the expectations of who these characters are to the public in general while continuing to evolve them. While it's true people have preconceived notions of Supes, Bats and ( to a lesser extent) Wonder Woman, we also can't allow that preconceived notion to drive how these characters are handled, Because if you aren't careful, they become irrelevant. Hell, you could argue that it's happening with Superman. To many, the Chris Reeve version from the Donner film is the be all end all. Never mind the character existed for 40 years prior to that version, the Donner version is the gold standard fo better or worse sadly, and I think it's neigh impossible to pry the character away from that or slowly pivot from that version without a very vocal segment of fandom and the general public crying foul and judging it as " not my Superman.".


Zack's Superman was fine, just the setting he had created for Superman was too dark and gritty.

----------


## maxmcco

I've noticed quite a few posters want Warner to put Shazam on hold and focus on building up the core characters of the Justice League. I don't think they understand that the JL IP has been somewhat damaged in the eyes of the general audience and needs a rest before jumping right back on the horse. Having over a one year break before Aquaman is released is a great thing. They need distance from JL and then they need to test how a JL solo property (that is not Wonder Woman) will be received by the public before investing any more money. If it's well received, get a sequel in play and expand to other JL characters. In the meantime, Shazam is the perfect property to do while we wait to see the reception of Aquaman. If Aquaman ends up failing (which I don't believe it will), re-edit Shazam (principle photography will be completed by then) to be a completely standalone movie in its own universe. Also, cancel the Black Adam movie and put him in the Shazam sequel if they don't continue the DCEU. From a business perspective, Shazam (after WW) is the safest bet right now.

----------


## ekrolo2

> What needs to happen is WB needs to find that balance that sort of meets the expectations of who these characters are to the public in general while continuing to evolve them. While it's true people have preconceived notions of Supes, Bats and ( to a lesser extent) Wonder Woman, we also can't allow that preconceived notion to drive how these characters are handled, Because if you aren't careful, they become irrelevant. Hell, you could argue that it's happening with Superman. To many, the Chris Reeve version from the Donner film is the be all end all. Never mind the character existed for 40 years prior to that version, the Donner version is the gold standard fo better or worse sadly, and I think it's neigh impossible to pry the character away from that or slowly pivot from that version without a very vocal segment of fandom and the general public crying foul and judging it as " not my Superman.".


Superman's fucked for good, there's no doubt about it. JLs cemented that, it turned Supes into a caricature of the Reeves version with awful dialogue and some weird confidence & spunk that comes out of nowhere just to placate people.

Batman's got it fairly easy because, unlike Superman, we got an in-between the latest version and the old one that really popularized the character in the film land scape, that was the Nolan version between the 80 & 90s one's and the current shared universe Batffleck one. Superman never got that, he got a bunch of cancelled projects for decades, then he finally got a movie that could have broken away from Reeves but Supes Returns dived right into that as a new Superman 3 type thing and that was a huge mistake. Returns should've just been its own take, Snyder and current Supes would get way less shit over not being Donner if the re was a developmental middle man to bridge the gap.

WWs popularity is fairly new so I think that if the Gadot version peters out and we get another one to birdge to a hypothetical third version a long time down the line, she'll avoid Supes' pitfall.

Supes himself is fucked though, there's no way in hell he's getting out of this rut.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Superman's fucked for good, there's no doubt about it. JLs cemented that, it turned Supes into a caricature of the Reeves version with awful dialogue and some weird confidence & spunk that comes out of nowhere just to placate people.
> 
> Batman's got it fairly easy because, unlike Superman, we got an in-between the latest version and the old one that really popularized the character in the film land scape, that was the Nolan version between the 80 & 90s one's and the current shared universe Batffleck one. Superman never got that, he got a bunch of cancelled projects for decades, then he finally got a movie that could have broken away from Reeves but Supes Returns dived right into that as a new Superman 3 type thing and that was a huge mistake. Returns should've just been its own take, Snyder and current Supes would get way less shit over not being Donner if the re was a developmental middle man to bridge the gap.
> 
> WWs popularity is fairly new so I think that if the Gadot version peters out and we get another one to birdge to a hypothetical third version a long time down the line, she'll avoid Supes' pitfall.
> 
> Supes himself is fucked though, there's no way in hell he's getting out of this rut.


JL Superman was great.

----------


## hitman1900

Justice League is at $481 million worldwide with a 57% drop from the first weekend. That's not as bad as BvS which saw a 67-69% drop. I saw it and I can say it's an alright movie. With that being said, I told friends and family to wait to watch it on blu-ray. There's just something about this cinematic universe that doesn't grip me, and this is from someone who thought Man of Steel was somewhat good. I just don't think that Warner Bros know their characters. The Batman and Superman cartoons are more true to the characters than the movies. It's too bad, I always wanted to watch a live action Justice League because of all the DC cartoons I grew up with.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Justice League is at $481 million worldwide with a 57% drop from the first weekend. That's not as bad as BvS which saw a 67-69% drop. I saw it and I can say it's an alright movie. With that being said, I told friends and family to wait to watch it on blu-ray. There's just something about this cinematic universe that doesn't grip me, and this is from someone who thought Man of Steel was somewhat good. I just don't think that Warner Bros know their characters. The Batman and Superman cartoons are more true to the characters than the movies. It's too bad, I always wanted to watch a live action Justice League because of all the DC cartoons I grew up with.


The good:

Most of the casting.

The action scenes.

Faora and Wonder Woman were simply great.

The Best portrayal of Steve Trevor and probably general Zod.

The music and some amazing shots.


The bad:

The dark and gritty tone, trying to create further tension when you need to bring the heroes together first.

The REALLY bad overall plan, especially BVS after MOS and wasted time.

The troubled storytelling from Zack

A terrible Lex Luthor and the worst Jonathan Kent characterization

----------


## Lightning Rider

> JL Superman was great.


I liked it but it felt unearned.




> Justice League is at $481 million worldwide with a 57% drop from the first weekend. That's not as bad as BvS which saw a 67-69% drop. I saw it and I can say it's an alright movie. With that being said, I told friends and family to wait to watch it on blu-ray. There's just something about this cinematic universe that doesn't grip me, and this is from someone who thought Man of Steel was somewhat good. *I just don't think that Warner Bros know their characters. The Batman and Superman cartoons are more true to the characters than the movies.* It's too bad, I always wanted to watch a live action Justice League because of all the DC cartoons I grew up with.


I'd argue with BvS at least that Snyder knew the characters too well and didn't prepare the audience for the subversion of their expectations. I love the cartoons but the reason they reduce a lot of the characters to their digestible essentials. Which is good in a team dynamic but inherently limits them.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I liked it but it felt unearned.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd argue with BvS at least that Snyder knew the characters too well and didn't prepare the audience for the subversion of their expectations. I love the cartoons but the reason they reduce a lot of the characters to their digestible essentials. Which is good in a team dynamic but inherently limits them.


Zack obviously is a Superman fan, his characterization of Superman was obviously the best of the trinity, but he tried too hard to put too much pain on Superman to show how great he was. And the storytelling kinda messed up as well.

Batman and Wonder Woman got much bigger problem in BVS. Batman was so irrational and actually wanted to kill Superman. Wonder Woman gave up on humanity（glad they have retconned it）.


This is why I don't want to see a Batman solo movie, because the overall characterization of him made him really unlikable to me.

----------


## Styles

Aquaman Movie Promo Art Surfaces Online

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Superman's fucked for good, there's no doubt about it. JLs cemented that, it turned Supes into a caricature of the Reeves version with awful dialogue and some weird confidence & spunk that comes out of nowhere just to placate people.
> 
> Batman's got it fairly easy because, unlike Superman, we got an in-between the latest version and the old one that really popularized the character in the film land scape, that was the Nolan version between the 80 & 90s one's and the current shared universe Batffleck one. Superman never got that, he got a bunch of cancelled projects for decades, then he finally got a movie that could have broken away from Reeves but Supes Returns dived right into that as a new Superman 3 type thing and that was a huge mistake. Returns should've just been its own take, Snyder and current Supes would get way less shit over not being Donner if the re was a developmental middle man to bridge the gap.
> 
> WWs popularity is fairly new so I think that if the Gadot version peters out and we get another one to birdge to a hypothetical third version a long time down the line, she'll avoid Supes' pitfall.
> 
> Supes himself is fucked though, there's no way in hell he's getting out of this rut.




I do hope they cancel the Shazam movies and focus on the Trinity and trinity related characters. Wonder Woman did very well and was the star of BVS so I think a good sequel will solidify her character. Superman just needs a good movie because people liked him in JL. Batman is someone they know they can count on and Affleck was one of the few things people liked in BVS and for me he is the best Bruce Wane/Batman we've seen so he should stay on board. If they are smart they will see what worked for them and keep it and scrap what didn't work Also, I think SS2 is definitlely a smart move as long as Margot and Viola are still on board. Hopefully they'll use the Flashpoint movie for a soft reboot so they can recast whoever they need to and bring back characters that were killed off like Steve Trevor. The fact that they had to retcon Wonder Woman abandoning the world for 100 years tells me they didn't think things through or at least Snyder wasn't realy focusing on every character when he introduced them and hopefully that means that certain decisions they were pigeonholed into making like killing off Diana's supporting cast will be retconned as well even if Patty and others did a good job of working with the hand they were dealt.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> ‘Aquaman’ Movie Promo Art Surfaces Online


Quite good, so Black Mantra is going to be the supporting villain? Wasn't he the arch-nemesis of Aquaman?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Quite good, so Black Mantra is going to be the supporting villain? Wasn't he the arch-nemesis of Aquaman?


He'll probably be less front and centre in the movie than Ocean Master but I'm sure Manta's the one who figures into Lex's plans for JL2 on the Aquaman front.

----------


## Myskin

> Superman's fucked for good, there's no doubt about it. JLs cemented that, it turned Supes into a caricature of the Reeves version with awful dialogue and some weird confidence & spunk that comes out of nowhere just to placate people.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

I'd also like to add that, no matter what they do, WB-DC is now irreparably behind Disney-Marvel in every possible aspect. They couldn't gain ground again even if they fired Kevin Tsujihara. Even if they put a completely different director in place of Snyder for JL2. Disney-Marvel literally occupied every possible slot and the slots which they didn't occupy were taken by Fox (Deadpool, Logan, Legion, etc). They made comedies, spy stories, sf, horror-ish films and they are making movies about a black hero, a female hero (the only slot which DC-WB vaguely succeeded in) and in 2018 Disney is releasing a little something titled Avengers 3. And that movie is the climax of a path which started almost 10 years ago and included something like 20 works, all of them extremely successful. There is zero doubt that it will leave a huge impact on pop culture and there is literally zero hope for WB-DC to do something like that in the short/medium term. It will probably be something in the same league of SW-A New Hope in terms of success and popularity. But wait, there's more - one year later, we have Avengers 4.

I mean, it's not that Disney-Marvel stops while WB-DC desperately tries to understand what the heck they want to do with their characters. And yes, a comparison DC-Marvel - or rather WB-Disney - is important because even if you don't like Marvel movies (personally speaking, I am not particularly fond of them) every non-Marvel movie which follows their same path is just deja vu at this point. Been there, done that. And one of the reasons behind the general disinterest in JL (yes, I think that at this point we can talk of general disinterest) is that Avengers came before it and JL didn't even try to explore a different path. And it is an extremely flawed, badly done movie. But that's another subject.

----------


## Carabas

> Quite good, so Black Mantra is going to be the supporting villain? Wasn't he the arch-nemesis of Aquaman?


Aquaman has a bunch of arch-nemesiseses, and Black Manta's not the one that killed his kid or caused him to lose a hand.

----------


## Myskin

> Aquaman has a bunch of arch-nemesiseses, and Black Manta's not the one that killed his kid


Actually, he is.

----------


## Agent Z

> *Aquaman has a bunch of arch-nemesiseses*, and Black Manta's not the one that killed his kid or caused him to lose a hand.


Not really. It's mostly Manta and his brother to a lesser extent. 

Also, yeah Manta was the one who killed his kid.

----------


## Johnny



----------


## Carabas

> Actually, he is.


Okay, I'm seriously missremembering stuff then. My bad.

----------


## Myskin

> Okay, I'm seriously missremembering stuff then. My bad.


No prob.
By the way, to be fair, Black Manta even chopped Aquaman's hand on ONE occasion (this is from Brightest Day 19)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_a5umKNb_k...vs-Aquaman.jpg

----------


## Naked Bat

> Before the year 2000 and X-Men Marvel really only had 3 visible characters to the general public.
> 
> 1: Hulk thanks to his TV show.
> 
> 2: Captain America due to his cultural standing and some bad serials and movies.
> 
> 3: Spider-Man due to him being basically the face of Marvel and their most popular character for decades and having many cartoons and a failed live action show.
> 
> But out of those 3 only Hulk did people know any real details about thanks to the TV show. Spider-Man was a Macy Thanksgiving Day Parade float and some might know the character to be jokey that's about it and many knew next to nothing about Captain America except who he was when shown but no actual details about the character.
> ...


That doesn't change a thing. It's still double standards.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Yep, and why didn't they push back the JL project?


There's usually a bunch of tie-in marketing deals already in place that relies on the movie being released in a certain time-frame. For example, that was apparently why David Ayer only got a few weeks to scribble down a story before Suicide Squad needed to go into production.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> No prob.
> By the way, to be fair, Black Manta even chopped Aquaman's hand on ONE occasion (this is from Brightest Day 19)
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_a5umKNb_k...vs-Aquaman.jpg


I've never understood how Black Manta can go toe-to-toe with Aquaman like that, isn't he just a regular dude with knives and a laser helmet?

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I've never understood how Black Manta can go toe-to-toe with Aquaman like that, isn't he just a regular dude with knives and a laser helmet?


This is something I hope the film addresses by establishing Black Manta has a suit that enhances his stats, or is just that damn good of a strategist (I'd personally like the two mashed together) because I've always found this pretty ridiculous in the comics.

----------


## Agent Z

> I've never understood how Black Manta can go toe-to-toe with Aquaman like that, isn't he just a regular dude with knives and a laser helmet?


Manta's armor grants him superhuman strength and contains a wide array of weapons such as a telepathic scrambler (used to temporarily strip Aquaman of his aquatic telepathy), twin blades, a hand-held trident, energy beams and a harpoon gun that he can fire from his right wrist gauntlet, miniaturized torpedoes, and optic blasts emitted from the eye lenses in his helmet. He goes toe-to-toe against Aquaman the same way any human in comics fights superhumans.

----------


## Agent Z

> This is something I hope the film addresses by establishing *Black Manta has a suit that enhances his stats, or is just that damn good of a strategist (I'd personally like the two mashed together)* because I've always found this pretty ridiculous in the comics.


That's literally how it is in the comics.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> That's literally how it is in the comics.


I've never seen the former stated anywhere but perhaps I have forgotten

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I've never understood how Black Manta can go toe-to-toe with Aquaman like that, isn't he just a regular dude with knives and a laser helmet?


He's Underwater Iron Man, basically. That suit is designed to fight Atlanteans.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> 


Nice art but how drab

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Anyone else looking at the marketing materials that have been released lately (the Alex Ross like poster with Superman included, artwork that shows Superman with the rest of the team) and think it was a huge mistake to not include Superman in the hype leading up to the release of the film? I get they wanted his return to be a "surprise" but I can't help but feel that when I look at the materials with him included with the rest of the team it evokes a "yeah, that's more like the Justice League" rather than just Batman, WW, Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg (who nobody in the GA knows).

----------


## Myskin

> Anyone else looking at the marketing materials that have been released lately (the Alex Ross like poster with Superman included, artwork that shows Superman with the rest of the team) and think it was a huge mistake to not include Superman in the hype leading up to the release of the film? I get they wanted his return to be a "surprise" but I can't help but feel that when I look at the materials with him included with the rest of the team it evokes a "yeah, that's more like the Justice League" rather than just Batman, WW, Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg (who nobody in the GA knows).


 I think that it wouldn’t have changed the final result.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Manta's armor grants him superhuman strength and contains a wide array of weapons such as a telepathic scrambler (used to temporarily strip Aquaman of his aquatic telepathy), twin blades, a hand-held trident, energy beams and a harpoon gun that he can fire from his right wrist gauntlet, miniaturized torpedoes, and optic blasts emitted from the eye lenses in his helmet. He goes toe-to-toe against Aquaman the same way any human in comics fights superhumans.


OK, thanks! Seems like a stretch that what looks like skin-tight latex could improve physical strength and resilience like that (at least the Iron Man armor works as an exo-skeleton), but at least it's an explanation.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I think that it wouldn’t have changed the final result.


It might or might not have. Superman is still a big deal as far as casual audiences are concerned. People who may not even know about Whedon or Snyder and all such stuff. Comic book fans care for such things. A large number of people would not even know that DC heroes can't appear in MCU films.

Whatever it might be, everyone knew Superman was coming back. What was the point in hiding him? It seems idiotic in retrospect.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> 


Quite good.

Why didn't they get MM back to the team if the Lantern couldn't make it?

----------


## Myskin

> It might or might not have. Superman is still a big deal as far as casual audiences are concerned. People who may not even know about Whedon or Snyder and all such stuff. Comic book fans care for such things. A large number of people would not even know that DC heroes can't appear in MCU films.
> 
> Whatever it might be, everyone knew Superman was coming back. What was the point in hiding him? It seems idiotic in retrospect.


Regarding the comic book fans, there isn't a single longtime reader who wouldn't have watched this movie even if Superman hadn't been in it.
Regarding the general audience, you're largely overestimating the appeal of Superman among the casual viewers.
In any case, Henry Cavill was very much involved in the promotion of the movie, a lot of promotional art is evocative of Superman and the gap between the expected box office results and what they got is something around 300 millions. No Superman could ever fill that void.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Regarding the comic book fans, there isn't a single longtime reader who wouldn't have watched this movie even if Superman hadn't been in it.
> Regarding the general audience, you're largely overestimating the appeal of Superman among the casual viewers.
> In any case, Henry Cavill was very much involved in the promotion of the movie, a lot of promotional art is evocative of Superman and the gap between the expected box office results and what they got is something around 300 millions. No Superman could ever fill that void.


I don't think Superman would have helped much. But his presence would have helped. Its the shadow of BvS which mainly hurt the film imo. Who knows maybe his addition to promotional materials could have helped crack 100 million in opening weekend. We can't know. But hiding Superman was unnecessary. 

When you have something why hide it? I don't think showing Spider-man in Civil War affected the film negatively. Such things can only increase the value not decrease it. By what extent? That's only guesswork.

----------


## Myskin

> But hiding Superman was unnecessary.


 Maybe. But since everybody and their uncle knew that Superman was in this movie his presence on a poster wouldn't have changed anything. This movie has way, way greater problems than a poster with a missing character.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Zack's Superman was fine, just the setting he had created for Superman was too dark and gritty.


That's what was great about the potential of this Superman. If hes supposed to be hope personified....why not have him develop to the point where he can inspire even our cynical assed? It means more to have him inspire a dark world, than one shining in light...

Honestly, I hate these preconceived notions of Superman, and other DC characters, and the GA. The same GA that almost screwed Fury Road, and let movies like the Nice Guys, and Blade Runner 2049, bomb.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Superman's fucked for good, there's no doubt about it. JLs cemented that, it turned Supes into a caricature of the Reeves version with awful dialogue and some weird confidence & spunk that comes out of nowhere just to placate people.
> 
> Batman's got it fairly easy because, unlike Superman, we got an in-between the latest version and the old one that really popularized the character in the film land scape, that was the Nolan version between the 80 & 90s one's and the current shared universe Batffleck one. Superman never got that, he got a bunch of cancelled projects for decades, then he finally got a movie that could have broken away from Reeves but Supes Returns dived right into that as a new Superman 3 type thing and that was a huge mistake. Returns should've just been its own take, Snyder and current Supes would get way less shit over not being Donner if the re was a developmental middle man to bridge the gap.
> 
> WWs popularity is fairly new so I think that if the Gadot version peters out and we get another one to birdge to a hypothetical third version a long time down the line, she'll avoid Supes' pitfall.
> 
> Supes himself is fucked though, there's no way in hell he's getting out of this rut.


Pretty much. It's a damn shame, too.

Honestly, Shazam is likely going to be their new "Superman". On a surface level, he's got similar powers, but with none of the baggage, or expectations, so they can experiment with him. He's also a kid, and an orphan, so hope is all he's got, and that could be a big thematic tone with him.

If his movie is successful, do be surprised to see WB/DC slowly push him to the #2 spot (after BatGod, of course). I wouldn't blame them either.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

It would be kind of funny if Shazam did better than Superman since I'm pretty sure that was a big problem DC had with him before they acquired the character. If I'm not mistaken he was bigger than Superman, so it would be interesting if that comes back years later after Superman fails to catch on in movies again.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It would be kind of funny if Shazam did better than Superman since I'm pretty sure that was a big problem DC had with him before they acquired the character. If I'm not mistaken he was bigger than Superman, so it would be interesting if that comes back years later after Superman fails to catch on in movies again.


I think that why Johns is pushing his character. He sees the potential, in case Supes fails to catch on. Supes is bigger in the comics, but to the casuals...Supes is more a symbol, than a character they actually know, and enjoy. Shazam is a Superman that can be evolved, without the fear of irrational backlash.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Anyone else looking at the marketing materials that have been released lately (the Alex Ross like poster with Superman included, artwork that shows Superman with the rest of the team) and think it was a huge mistake to not include Superman in the hype leading up to the release of the film? I get they wanted his return to be a "surprise" but I can't help but feel that when I look at the materials with him included with the rest of the team it evokes a "yeah, that's more like the Justice League" rather than just Batman, WW, Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg (who nobody in the GA knows).


it was a mistake to kill him in the first place
they should have just went with snyder's evil supes being an antagonist in the trailers and then have him turning good as the surprise 
At least that way you could explain the barry going back in time timeline from BvS

----------


## Slowpokeking

> That's what was great about the potential of this Superman. If hes supposed to be hope personified....why not have him develop to the point where he can inspire even our cynical assed? It means more to have him inspire a dark world, than one shining in light...
> 
> Honestly, I hate these preconceived notions of Superman, and other DC characters, and the GA. The same GA that almost screwed Fury Road, and let movies like the Nice Guys, and Blade Runner 2049, bomb.


Because that took a lot of talent to make it good and unfortunately Zack and Goyer are far from it. People don't want to watch such depressing Superman movie.

And that's not what we needed when the first priority is to build up the Justice League.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Because that took a lot of talent to make it good and unfortunately Zack and Goyer are far from it. People don't want to watch such depressing Superman movie.
> 
> And that's not what we needed when the first priority is to build up the Justice League.


Dude stop. 

The first priority is to make a good story. Hoyer, and Zack, created MoS, as a part one. Yes, it has some flaws in the storytelling, but it was a very aloud foundation to build on for the rest of the trilogy. It wasn't even depressing. If that's depressing, I'm surprised you didn't drown in a puddle of tears watching Logan.

You keep spouting that Superman is supposed to be hope, but refuse to want to see Superman grow to be someone that can realistically, and literally, bring hope to a world drowning in its own cynicism. You contradict yourself constantly. What is the damn point of being a symbol for hope, in a world that automatically sees every hero as perfect, and to be relied upon, without question?

The world is in a dark place now, including its future heroes, and seeing Clark rise above that is the point of a symbol of hope. We should've gotten the MoS trilogy, but no WB panicked because of people like you...and this is the mess we've gotten. Justice League was only a priority because of the response to MoS, and success of Avengers. That was not the original plan.

Thank you, and people like, for making sure we never get a non-derivative Superman movie.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Dude stop. 
> 
> The first priority is to make a good story. Hoyer, and Zack, created MoS, as a part one. Yes, it has some flaws in the storytelling, but it was a very aloud foundation to build on for the rest of the trilogy. It wasn't even depressing. If that's depressing, I'm surprised you didn't drown in a puddle of tears watching Logan.
> 
> You keep spouting that Superman is supposed to be hope, but refuse to want to see Superman grow to be someone that can realistically, and literally, bring hope to a world drowning in its own cynicism. You contradict yourself constantly. What is the damn point of being a symbol for hope, in a world that automatically sees every hero as perfect, and to be relied upon, without question?
> 
> The world is in a dark place now, including its future heroes, and seeing Clark rise above that is the point of a symbol of hope. We should've gotten the MoS trilogy, but no WB panicked because of people like you...and this is the mess we've gotten. Justice League was only a priority because of the response to MoS, and success of Avengers. That was not the original plan.
> 
> Thank you, and people like, for making sure we never get a non-derivative Superman movie.


The first priority is to build up the Justice League through good solo movies. We are talking about DCEU as a whole. This is why I dislike BVS so much, it's not that bad but it's not what DCEU needed at that time. Do you see how rushed Justice League was? Thanks to BVS creating tension instead of bringing heroes together and caused no DC movies through 2014-15, we could have got the other solos then JL would have been much easier to handle. 

And Zack didn't have the talent to do it well.  Don't get me wrong I like MoS, but the dark tone dragged the movie down. Are you saying we can't have a good Superman story without the dark tone? To me, MoS would have been better and would have received even better reception and box office if the storytelling was more straight and they didn't pick the dark tone. 

Then in BVS they chose to expand it instead of discard it and it got bad reception, even forced DC to change the tone. You can see they have learned their lesson after BVS, which is why WW was a success. Even DC and WB had realized the mistake, I don't know why are you still defending it.

Realistic?

1. Superman, along with all the other superheroes are created in unrealistic world, they don't fit the real world, there would be way too many mines to avoid if you want to try it. Even someone like Batman

2. Dark and gritty does not equal realistic, actually the tornado scene is quite laughable. How is Jonathan Kent not realistic if he didn't say "maybe" but chose to be happy about Clark's heroic action? Are you saying all real humans are that selfish?  Can you imagine how would the Wonder Woman movie do if they had followed the BVS plan? Making her give up on humanity in a dark movie?

3.I love Superman very much, I like MoS a lot as well, I just don't think such tone fit Superman's story well especially in the beginning and in a movie because movie got very limited screentime to build up tension and solve it. This is why the Martha line became a meme. And thanks to the mishandling, DCEU didn't meet its expectation now despite the awesome cast, music score and a lot of good elements.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Jeezus...just look at these early designs for Zeus, and Ares... https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...res-movie-art/

It gives the feeling that this movie was supposed to be just epic, and grand spectacle. That design for Zeus...that's gotta be one of the best, creative takes on him. But that's not what audiences wanted, after audience tests apparently...

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Jeezus...just look at these early designs for Zeus, and Ares... https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...res-movie-art/
> 
> It gives the feeling that this movie was supposed to be just epic, and grand spectacle. That design for Zeus...that's gotta be one of the best, creative takes on him. But that's not what audiences wanted, after audience tests apparently...


Ares was a complete miscast. Such a handsome and strong god and they picked Lupin to play not just his disguise, but also, his true self?

----------


## Carabas

> Dude stop. 
> 
> The first priority is to make a good story. Hoyer, and Zack, created MoS, as a part one. Yes, it has some flaws in the storytelling, but it was a very aloud foundation to build on for the rest of the trilogy. It wasn't even depressing.


It's a bit depressingwe didn't get to see the rest of that trilogy. Because Dawn Of Justice, that is not what Snyder intended to follow up Man Of Steel with.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It's a bit depressingwe didn't get to see the rest of that trilogy. Because Dawn Of Justice, that is not what Snyder intended to follow up Man Of Steel with.


Whoever made the idea of BVS should take No.1 blame of DCEU's current situation.

----------


## Soubhagya

If we believe an old sound byte by Zack Snyder, Man of Steel was not supposed to begin a cinematic universe. It was a separate take on Superman. This is Snyder during Sucker Punch. His Superman was 'different' from Justice League's Superman which WB was 'planning' at that time. Mind you it is not an interview. Just something in the mind of Snyder in 2011. Before Dark Knight Rises and Avengers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...RUIVJcylJyRApA

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The first priority is to build up the Justice League through good solo movies. We are talking about DCEU as a whole. This is why I dislike BVS so much, it's not that bad but it's not what DCEU needed at that time. Do you see how rushed Justice League was? Thanks to BVS creating tension instead of bringing heroes together and caused no DC movies through 2014-15, we could have got the other solos then JL would have been much easier to handle. 
> 
> And Zack didn't have the talent to do it well.  Don't get me wrong I like MoS, but the dark tone dragged the movie down. Are you saying we can't have a good Superman story without the dark tone? To me, MoS would have been better and would have received even better reception and box office if the storytelling was more straight and they didn't pick the dark tone. 
> 
> Then in BVS they chose to expand it instead of discard it and it got bad reception, even forced DC to change the tone. You can see they have learned their lesson after BVS, which is why WW was a success. Even DC and WB had realized the mistake, I don't know why are you still defending it.
> 
> Realistic?
> 
> 1. Superman, along with all the other superheroes are created in unrealistic world, they don't fit the real world, there would be way too many mines to avoid if you want to try it. Even someone like Batman
> ...


Dude, its like you didn't read my post at all...It's amazing, and sad, how your post barely acts as a rebuttal to what I said.

I already said the shouldn't have rushed it. Did you not read in my post that we should've gotten the MoS trilogy first. However, that's all they needed. Establish Superman as their first world known hero, in the DCEU, and have him act as not only the anchor of the franchise, but the beacon that brings out the rest of the heroes from the shadows.

BvS could've then happened, followed by prequel Batman, and WW, solos showing how they got into the state of mind they were in BvS. With the Trinity established, you go into JL, and follow that with Flash, Aquaman, etc solos, as well as Batman, and WW, sequels showing the effect that these recent events have had on them.

All this would've been a response to Superman having brought hope to the world. 

Superman having a father that didn't push him to be some great, but looked out for him is fine. Even then, Jonathan, and Martha, still raised him to be a good man. Him growing up struggling with all the cons, and complications, that come with life, makes him not only more relatable, but him dealing all that, and coming out of it, having learned to smile through it all, makes him more inspiring as well. 

If you go in that direction, Clark can talk to a older Batman about heroic actions seeming futile, but he doesn't give up hope because that what he sees in the eyes of the people he saves. This Superman can to WW about being a "chosen one", and going agsinst his own peopke, only to hit a wall of potential regret, but finding something, and/or someone, to love and keep him going.

He can relate to Flash, in that his first day as a superhero was saving the world too. Cyborg, on that he's a product of an invading force. Aquaman in being trapped in between worlds.

He overcame all of that, and he inspires others because he's suffered, and only made a stronger person.

So yeah, I agree that Superman is Hope, but I disagree that showing him struggle to become that was the wrong idea. I agree that they shouldn't have rushed to JL (or to SS, for that matter), but they only needed to establish Supes as the anchor of the verse, via his trilogy, followed by BvS (with no Doomsday, but rather a beefed up Metallo), and then give us Batman, and WW, prequel solos to catch us up. Bam, Trinity established, so we can move onto JL.

If you can't understand this, I give up with you.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Whoever made the idea of BVS should take No.1 blame of DCEU's current situation.


That would be WB executives...

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If we believe an old sound byte by Zack Snyder, Man of Steel was not supposed to begin a cinematic universe. It was a separate take on Superman. This is Snyder during Sucker Punch. His Superman was 'different' from Justice League's Superman which WB was 'planning' at that time. Mind you it is not an interview. Just something in the mind of Snyder in 2011. Before Dark Knight Rises and Avengers.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...RUIVJcylJyRApA


This is true. Still, after the trilogy, they could've done BvS, and all the other stuff. WB wasn't patient, tho.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Ares was a complete miscast. Such a handsome and strong god and they picked Lupin to play not just his disguise, but also, his true self?


It would've been better if he was what Ares looked like in the future, but more weary. Honest, Azzarello's take on Ares is what should've went with. WW's prequel solo villain shouldn't have been that version of Ares so soon.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Jeezus...just look at these early designs for Zeus, and Ares... https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...res-movie-art/
> 
> It gives the feeling that this movie was supposed to be just epic, and grand spectacle. That design for Zeus...that's gotta be one of the best, creative takes on him. But that's not what audiences wanted, after audience tests apparently...


I feel that attention to detail to a largely irrelevant character in Diana's mythology for majority of her existence, the now retain WW backstory, and what hid plans were for the Amazons tells me enough how he approached this story and I'm happy those bits were left out. I'm not sure what compelled them to give this man an entire universe to create in the first place.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Dude, its like you didn't read my post at all...It's amazing, and sad, how your post barely acts as a rebuttal to what I said.
> 
> I already said the shouldn't have rushed it. Did you not read in my post that we should've gotten the MoS trilogy first. However, that's all they needed. Establish Superman as their first world known hero, in the DCEU, and have him act as not only the anchor of the franchise, but the beacon that brings out the rest of the heroes from the shadows.
> 
> BvS could've then happened, followed by prequel Batman, and WW, solos showing how they got into the state of mind they were in BvS. With the Trinity established, you go into JL, and follow that with Flash, Aquaman, etc solos, as well as Batman, and WW, sequels showing the effect that these recent events have had on them.
> 
> All this would've been a response to Superman having brought hope to the world. 
> 
> Superman having a father that didn't push him to be some great, but looked out for him is fine. Even then, Jonathan, and Martha, still raised him to be a good man. Him growing up struggling with all the cons, and complications, that come with life, makes him not only more relatable, but him dealing all that, and coming out of it, having learned to smile through it all, makes him more inspiring as well. 
> ...


It could have worked? Maybe, but even if we just based on MoS I don't see Zack or Goyer could handle it well. The tornado scene was silly and the bus scene was utterly bad. And no, Superman didn't become hope for no reason. Joanthan Kent was a big part of his characterization, he shouldn't be the selfish guy we've seen in the movie.  I don't think someone let a bunch of kids die could be judged as "good guy".





> It would've been better if he was what Ares looked like in the future, but more weary. Honest, Azzarello's take on Ares is what should've went with. WW's prequel solo villain shouldn't have been that version of Ares so soon.


Nikolaj Coster-Waldau should have played him.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I feel that attention to detail to a largely irrelevant character in Diana's mythology for majority of her existence, the now retain WW backstory, and what hid plans were for the Amazons tells me enough how he approached this story and I'm happy those bits were left out. I'm not sure what compelled them to give this man an entire universe to create im the first place.


In this story, Zeus is her father, and seeing as WW lacks a lot known villains, pushing the Greek mythology aspect of her character to the forefront makes it easier to make stories for her movies. Also, it's called world building. This is the kind of stuff LotR did, putting a lot of detail into the world. That makes a world have weight, and makes us want to explore it. 

I wish that kind of attention to detail was afforded to Steppenwolf, and the Ares we got in WW.

----------


## Bossace

I enjoyed the CW part one crossover last night and I’m sad to admit I had more fun watching that than JL. But I’ve always loved me some DC shows especially smallville, which has my favorite Lex ever Pa lend everything. I know it’s certainly not fair to compare movies and TV cause tv has hours of development.

Wish we had more DCEU titles coming out it’s insane the number of marvel movies coming out between now in then and not just marvel studios. Excited for aquaman just wish there was more to look forward too for DC between now and Christmas.

Also I’ve read reports that a Snyder cut doesn’t even exist which is upsetting because I loved the UR cut from BVS and the ultimate cut from Watchmen

Also I’m curious if the avengers trailer tomorrow will suck all the air out of the room for JL, especially if this movie takes more of a dark take which it should because of well Thanos. I’m sure then the comparisons will begin to grow especially if marvel being more serious will be compared to the serious tone of the DCEU and whole “handled a dark serious tone better”

----------


## Jokerz79

> I enjoyed the CW part one crossover last night and I’m sad to admit I had more fun watching that than JL. But I’ve always loved me some DC shows especially smallville, which has my favorite Lex ever Pa lend everything. I know it’s certainly not fair to compare movies and TV cause tv has hours of development.
> 
> Wish we had more DCEU titles coming out it’s insane the number of marvel movies coming out between now in then and not just marvel studios. Excited for aquaman just wish there was more to look forward too for DC between now and Christmas.
> 
> Also I’ve read reports that a Snyder cut doesn’t even exist which is upsetting because I loved the UR cut from BVS and the ultimate cut from Watchmen
> 
> Also I’m curious if the avengers trailer tomorrow will suck all the air out of the room for JL, especially if this movie takes more of a dark take which it should because of well Thanos. I’m sure then the comparisons will begin to grow especially if marvel being more serious will be compared to the serious tone of the DCEU and whole “handled a dark serious tone better”


Yeah it's insane there are seven Marvel properties coming out before Aquaman with Black Panther, Avengers Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Deadpool 2, New Mutants, X-Men Dark Phoenix, and Venom.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

This could be interesting if there's any truth to it... http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/el-fanb...moving-forward

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> This could be interesting if there's any truth to it... http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/el-fanb...moving-forward


Very much hope it’s true.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This could be interesting if there's any truth to it... http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/el-fanb...moving-forward


Sounds good to me, if true. 

I don't even mind the possibility that Darkseid is being back-burner'd. Darkseid should be a slow reveal. His presence should be felt long, LONG before it's ever seen. Just throw in a hint or two that he is coming and build up to it. Heck, you can even reveal that Darkseid is behind the Legion of Doom. It's already been established that Lex Luthor has had contact with Apokolips. Just say Lex is getting weapons from Apokolips ala Intergang from Superman TAS. Heck, that could even be the origin of Lex's warsuit, if they're going that way for him.

----------


## Bossace

The question with Darkseid is even though fans know he’s been around longer and is a big bad evil there’s a problem. There is again people who will see this and directly compare this to Thanos not knowing the past and history of the character. “Oh they’re doing a big bad dove guy for the team to fight JUST like marvel did when they built him up over the years since avengers 1” id almost rather see the anti monitor and crisis on multiple words, Anti monitor alone could be seen as a tha is comparison, but thrown in  crisis correctly it could be a fun ride and not even be comparable.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> In this story, Zeus is her father, and seeing as WW lacks a lot known villains, pushing the Greek mythology aspect of her character to the forefront makes it easier to make stories for her movies. Also, it's called world building. This is the kind of stuff LotR did, putting a lot of detail into the world. That makes a world have weight, and makes us want to explore it. 
> 
> I wish that kind of attention to detail was afforded to Steppenwolf, and the Ares we got in WW.


I know but I don't like the n52 origin and even in that story Zeus didn't show up much . I think that Snyder choosing this story makes Diana a supporting character in her own mythology because everything about her and her mythology(supporting cast, villains, etc.) is only important in relation to the gods even the Amazons seem like a footnote in a larger story. Which is only made worse by the fact that the greek mythology is mostly used to make the New Gods seem stronger and more important. So even that gets the short end of the stick. 

I think that Snyder had the wrong idea by trying to make this epic story about the new gods and if he was so determined to make it he could have done a better job with the characters and the mythology he was using. I don't really understand what the execs saw in him as a director or even just with ideas that made them think that he should be in charge of the entire universe but it was a mistake that they have to pay a hefty price for. 

Wonder Woman is an important character for DC and WB and not utilizing her entire intellectual property isn't a smart move especially if they are going to use public domain characters instead. The reason her villains aren't known is because she doesn't get much exposure and neither do they and if they continue to avoid using them it's going to stay that way. I do wish that Steppenwolf had gotten whatever attention to detail Snyder planned for him because what we got was not good and made the movie much worse than it probably would have been  but I don't think what he had in mind for Ares would have been a good idea.

 I don't like what the WW movie did with Ares but I think what Snyder had planned would have been worse than what we got. I think they should have hired him in a smaller role and hired multiple people to do the job he was trying to do.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> This could be interesting if there's any truth to it... http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/el-fanb...moving-forward


I hope this is true too. I think Darkseid being the villain in an all out epic would have been a bad move esp with Infinity War gearing up.They can still use Darkseid but there are better ways than where Snyder was headed.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> To me, MoS would have been better and would have received even better reception and box office if the storytelling was more straight and they didn't pick the dark tone.


Man Of  Steel was not dark.

----------


## Carabas

> Man Of  Steel was not dark.


Movies in which the Daily Planet gets destroyed and half of Metropolis ends up a smouldering ruin are dark.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Man Of  Steel was not dark.


Without the worst portrayal of Jonathan Kent, maybe.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I hope this is true too. I think Darkseid being the villain in an all out epic would have been a bad move esp with Infinity War gearing up.They can still use Darkseid but there are better ways than where Snyder was headed.


DC never lacks of great villain, but they got to use them right. Steppenwolf was a very bad choice.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Movies in which the Daily Planet gets destroyed and half of Metropolis ends up a smouldering ruin are dark.


The Daily Planet wasn’t destroyed, and “half of Metropolis” is exaggeration. It was, in reality, a small part of a massive city as seen by the size of memorial park in BvS & JL. 





> Without the worst portrayal of Jonathan Kent, maybe.


Only here can people still be fighting over the use of ONE word in a 2.5 hour movie from 4.5 years ago.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Movies in which the Daily Planet gets destroyed and half of Metropolis ends up a smouldering ruin are dark.


Meh.  Tonally, its just more serious but its still not dark.   In Fantastic Four: The Rise Of Silver Surfer a guy gets killed off by having half his head blown off but its still not a dark movie, In Iron Man 3 dozens are killed off in a terrorist  attack, and the president gets  killed on live television, and  the main characters former love interest gets murdered but the overall tone of the movie is not dark. MOS wasn't all that dark in comparison to most superhero movies.  Man Of Steel merely displays collateral damage more "realistically'' in comparison to most superhero movies. 

Watchmen, V Vendetta,  Dark Knight, and BvS are truly dark. MOS is just serious.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I mean, honestly...all of you who keep banging the Superman destroyed Metropolis! drum, have any of you ever looked at the horizon during the wide city shots? Metropolis is MASSIVE.

----------


## Godlike13

Superman killed someone. That’s pretty dark.

----------


## Slowpokeking

It's not Superman's fault, it's the whole setting, especially overstating the fear against superhero.

Glad Wonder Woman got rid of it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I mostly agree. Id hesitate to call BvS dark, but its definitely on the more serious end of comic films, as is MoS. 

The problem, to me, is too many people throw around dark and gritty because they heard someone say it once and they just regurgitate it. But they dont really know what dark and gritty means. You want dark and gritty? Check out Requiem for a Dream (starring Jared Leto & Jill Connelly). Check out Se7en. Check out Narc. Those are dark & gritty. 

Obviously comic films are a bit different, but I absolutely hesitate to call any of them gritty. Spawn is a semi-dark film, overlooked because its cheesy. Logan might fit the bill for gritty, actually, now that I think of it. The world is very lived in, and Logan himself is very weary and just no fucks to give. I guess thats gritty. Anyone that says BvS or MoS are gritty in a world Logan exists just cant be taken seriously, imo.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Superman killed someone. That’s pretty dark.


Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians kill people in their movies. Are the GotG movies dark?

----------


## Bossace

> Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians kill people in their movies. Are the GotG movies dark?


Well they’re outlaws and bounty hunters, not the symbol of truth justice and hope, they’re supposed to kill not sure I’d use them as a reference

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Without the worst portrayal of Jonathan Kent, maybe.


The way you write you seem to be under the impression that Superman can't work with a dark tone and I disagree.   There have been plenty of dark Superman comics in the past that worked just fine like Alan Moore's _Whatever Happened to The Man Of Tommorow?_ or even _Superman: Red Son_. As Ben Affleck said: tone is not a qualitative thing.  The problems with Man Of Steel and BvS were not tone.  The problems  were writing/film making. Same with the last Fantastic Four reboot in which people keep harping on the tone as being "wrongheaded'' when in reality it was the shortcomings came  from the script/film making level not the tonal approach--which is actually right at home with Fantastic Four since their origin does indeed involve body horror and the FF have had very serious stories in the past.

----------


## Pinsir

> Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians kill people in their movies. Are the GotG movies dark?


Captain America kills people too and people keep saying he is a better Superman than Cavill.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Movies in which the Daily Planet gets destroyed and half of Metropolis ends up a smouldering ruin are dark.


So Avengers, IM3 and Pacific Rim are dark movies?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> DC never lacks of great villain, but they got to use them right. Steppenwolf was a very bad choice.


This is a contradiction.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Superman killed someone. That’s pretty dark.


So? Pretty sure every IM bad guy has been killed. 

Also pretty sure millions, to billions, died during GotG2. Rocket gleefully slaughters in both movies.

Thor, in his first movie, slaughters Ice Giants without provacation....breaching a treaty, becuz reasons. That a dark movie?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Well they’re outlaws and bounty hunters, not the symbol of truth justice and hope, they’re supposed to kill not sure I’d use them as a reference


Godlike13 said that killing someone = dark.

So we've brought up movies that are "fun" that have the people we're to root for kill.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The way you write you seem to be under the impression that Superman can't work with a dark tone and I disagree.   There have been plenty of dark Superman comics in the past that worked just fine like Alan Moore's _Whatever Happened to The Man Of Tommorow?_ or even _Superman: Red Son_. As Ben Affleck said: tone is not a qualitative thing.  The problems with Man Of Steel and BvS were not tone.  The problems  were writing/film making. Same with the last Fantastic Four reboot in which people keep harping on the tone as being "wrongheaded'' when in reality it was the shortcomings came  from the script/film making level not the tonal approach--which is actually right at home with Fantastic Four since their origin does indeed involve body horror and the FF have had very serious stories in the past.


Superman can work with the dark tone, but 

1. It would require a great amount of work to make it good. The traditional way is much safer and can produce good story with depth as well. So why try the hard way and fail?

It's not a good idea to make Jonathan Kent that selfish even if you want to work with it.


2. It usually fit the "elseworld" story instead of the mainstream issue.

What is MoS and BVS?

Major blockbusters, the beginning of DCEU, the universe that have the Justice League as the goal to build and show it to the audience.

They were already behind Marvel as well. Unlike comic, movies don't have that much length to let you build up everything.

So the most important thing is to introduce the heroes and bring them together, not to use dark tone to create further tension unless you are REALLY REALLY brilliant, which 99% of the time isn't the case.

We got

A Superman feared by the world and had to use his death to win people's heart back.
A middle aged irrational Batman who actually wanted to kill Superman
A Wonder Woman who had given up on humanity due to the dark past(Before they changed the tone in the solo).

Could they have worked in comics? Maybe.

Are they what we need for this stage of DCEU, when your first priority is to build up the Justice League?

HELL NO.

I don't find the Wonder Woman movie outstanding, but it at least try to tell a decent story rather than give us what we don't want to see, especially in this stage.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Movies in which the Daily Planet gets destroyed and half of Metropolis ends up a smouldering ruin are dark.





> So Avengers, IM3 and Pacific Rim are dark movies?


Add the other movies that came out in 2013, alongside MOS.

G.I. Joe Retaliation - Where London gets fragged

Star Trek Into Darkness - San Francisco gets 9/11 by an actual spaceship. *The writers themselves are admitted 9/11 truthers*

Olympus Has Fallen and White House Down - Washington DC gets destroyed.

Pacific Rim - Hong Kong was the site of a double Kaiju attack and Jaeger battle.

Thor The Dark World - London once again has sections of it's city destroyed.


Every film glossed over repair and recovery. Nobody complained about property damage and nobody complained about civilian casualties. The only film it was an issue for, was MOS.


Would it surprise anyone to know that Superman inspires nobody in the much vaunted Superman I and Superman II? The same can be said about their remake, Superman Returns. However, Superman not inspiring anyone in those films wasn't an issue. Once again though, MOS was singled out for allegedly, not inspiring anyone. 

Funny how that works, when you think about it.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Superman can work with the dark tone, but 
> 
> 1. It would require a great amount of work to make it good. The traditional way is much safer and can produce good story with depth as well. So why try the hard way and fail?
> 
> It's not a good idea to make Jonathan Kent that selfish even if you want to work with it.
> 
> 
> 2. It usually fit the "elseworld" story instead of the mainstream issue.
> 
> ...


Amen. Unfortunately this doesn’t fit the “WB execs are 100 percent to blame narrative” so some will reject your point.

----------


## Stick Figure

MOS is the only time other than Injustice that I've gotten into Superman. I wouldn't call MOS dark at all. If you want a cartoon character like the old films then I guess it's dark. I like that he behaved like a normal person. Maybe take Superman off this pedestal and treat him like a regular person and we'd have something special. Children aren't the audience anymore so why not add depth and even some darkness to his character.

----------


## Jokerz79

For me Darkness has nothing to do with death or even violence but tone. Jessica Jones and Punisher are darker IMO than anything in the DCEU.

----------


## Jokerz79

> MOS is the only time other than Injustice that I've gotten into Superman. I wouldn't call MOS dark at all. If you want a cartoon character like the old films then I guess it's dark. I like that he behaved like a normal person. Maybe take Superman off this pedestal and treat him like a regular person and we'd have something special. Children aren't the audience anymore so why not add depth and even some darkness to his character.


Superman isn't a normal person he's Superman.

Children are still part of the audience and should be.

Last darkness doesn't equal depth in anyway.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Add the other movies that came out in 2013, alongside MOS.
> 
> G.I. Joe Retaliation - Where London gets fragged
> 
> Star Trek Into Darkness - San Francisco gets 9/11 by an actual spaceship. *The writers themselves are admitted 9/11 truthers*
> 
> Olympus Has Fallen and White House Down - Washington DC gets destroyed.
> 
> Pacific Rim - Hong Kong was the site of a double Kaiju attack and Jaeger battle.
> ...


Thank you for further proving that MoS's problems were more than critical.

----------


## Pinsir

> DC never lacks of great villain, but they got to use them right. Steppenwolf was a very bad choice.


Actually they chose Steppenwolf because he was forgettable. He is irrelevant and when the JL assembles he stands no chance, that's the point. He is merely a stepping stone to much more promising villians. The emphasis was on the team assembling so whatever villain they chose was never going to be well flushed out. Since no one cares about Steppenwolf, they choose him to fill this spot. 

I know a lot of MCU have had to endure the "You're villains are crap" meme for years now and are now salivating to return in kind, but consider this; What villains have been used in the DCEU so far? Are they screwing up iconic villains with a rich comic book history to draw from? No, their not, Doomsday did as Doomsday does, the Enchantress is gone I guess, Stepenwolf, wow, such an iconic character! Now let's see what villains still haven't been tapped into; Black Manta, Ocean Master, Sinestro, Atrocious, Cheeta, Black Adam, the Rogues, Reverse Flash, Darkseid, Braniac, all those Bat villains...Not to mention the Joker and Luthur can be better fleshed out too in subsequent films

Now let's peruse through the MCU's trash heap of villains they butchered; Ultron, Zemo, Mandarin, Baron von Strucker, Red Skull (he's never coming back), Ronan, the Leader is never going to get a chance and these are the bad guys that carry some weight. I'm not even going to go bother with all the no name villains either. So what's worse? Making Ultron an embarrassment or making Steppenwolf a forgettable stepping stone?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Actually they chose Steppenwolf because he was forgettable. He is irrelevant and when the JL assembles he stands no chance, that's the point. He is merely a stepping stone to much more promising villians. The emphasis was on the team assembling so whatever villain they chose was never going to be well flushed out. Since no one cares about Steppenwolf, they choose him to fill this spot. 
> 
> I know a lot of MCU have had to endure the "You're villains are crap" meme for years now and are now salivating to return in kind, but consider this; What villains have been used in the DCEU so far? Are they screwing up iconic villains with a rich comic book history to draw from? No, their not, Doomsday did as Doomsday does, the Enchantress is gone I guess, Stepenwolf, wow, such an iconic character! Now let's see what villains still haven't been tapped into; Black Manta, Ocean Master, Sinestro, Atrocious, Cheeta, Black Adam, the Rogues, Reverse Flash, Darkseid, Braniac, all those Bat villains...Not to mention the Joker and Luthur can be better fleshed out too in subsequent films
> 
> Now let's peruse through the MCU's trash heap of villains they butchered; Ultron, Zemo, Mandarin, Baron von Strucker, Red Skull (he's never coming back), Ronan, the Leader is never going to get a chance and these are the bad guys that carry some weight. I'm not even going to go bother with all the no name villains either. So what's worse? Making Ultron an embarrassment or making Steppenwolf a forgettable stepping stone?


But JL is not a stepping stone, it cost 300M to made and was supposed to be THE. MOVIE. to bring DCEU up high like the Avengers did.  This is not a starting comic issue, this is a big big blockbuster movie to make huge box office profit otherwise the future of DCEU might suffer. You got to bring up your top choice. MoS did quite well with Zod and Faora, WW used Ares while there was a miscast. And in JL we got Steppenwolf when there are tons of big names to pick? Bad bad choice here.

Marvel used Loki because he was popular and indeed was one of the best villains they could use at that time since more than half of their top villains were on other company's hands.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

I didn't bother to read back too far about heroes killing in the films but I'm pretty sure all of them do it at one point or another across the big two.

Killing in most cases is wrong. I don't think anybody is going to defend that kind of vigilante justice as the first order of business, however one needs to address a certain question;
"How was the killing handled?"

Films are an art form and in superhero films it is an escapist fantasy. We aren't meant to dwell too much on the death of character or extras. However we need to address how it is handled in the film, what is the point being made?

In _Man of Steel_, when Clark breaks Zod's neck we find that Clark is getting nowhere fighting Zod. Nothing is working and Zod is threatening his heatvision on some civilians. Having no other option, Clark kills Zod and it is emotional not because Clark killed as this film gives us no indicator on whether its something he is against or not. The climax is emotional because Clark had to kill the only other Kryptonian, and the only link left alive regarding his heritage. Clark's murder of Zod is the death of Kal-El because he has nothing left living from Krypton being more or less his own extinction event. 
This is dark. 

The _Suicide Squad_ approaching their objective in an overrun city of faceless henchmen threatening their lives and using lethal force is played for action. Because the henchmen have no connection to our heroes the henchmen can be disposed of without thought, because we are given no connection nor anything to humanize them beyond shape.    
This is meant to be seen as action.

In _Man of Steel_ the destruction of Metropolis is meant to evoke images of numerous war zones and a certain attack that Americans faced in a certain city. The destruction of Metropolis is an action set piece in the fight with Zod, but the terraformer is horror, because it brings to mind real world events that are terrifying. The initial attack is horror while the latter is action.

You can address what sort of thing a movie wants you to feel, that's tone. However a movie can have a couple different tones to it. A movie like _Man of Steel_ has some lighthearted moments and it has some awe inspiring scenes. It is also dark. But _Man of Steel_ is not a dark movie. Man of Steel is merely a movie that has dark themes. It does not blanket statement the movie. It's a superhero movie that plays with dark themes but that isn't all it is.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I didn't bother to read back too far about heroes killing in the films but I'm pretty sure all of them do it at one point or another across the big two.
> 
> Killing in most cases is wrong. I don't think anybody is going to defend that kind of vigilante justice as the first order of business, however one needs to address a certain question;
> "How was the killing handled?"
> 
> Films are an art form and in superhero films it is an escapist fantasy. We aren't meant to dwell too much on the death of character or extras. However we need to address how it is handled in the film, what is the point being made?
> 
> In _Man of Steel_, when Clark breaks Zod's neck we find that Clark is getting nowhere fighting Zod. Nothing is working and Zod is threatening his heatvision on some civilians. Having no other option, Clark kills Zod and it is emotional not because Clark killed as this film gives us no indicator on whether its something he is against or not. The climax is emotional because Clark had to kill the only other Kryptonian, and the only link left alive regarding his heritage. Clark's murder of Zod is the death of Kal-El because he has nothing left living from Krypton being more or less his own extinction event. 
> This is dark. 
> ...


Killing isn't the issue.

Being told by a father figure and role model to let a bus full of innocent kids die, is a big issue.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Killing isn't the issue.
> 
> Being told by a father figure and role model to let a bus full of innocent kids die, is a big issue.


I'm still waiting for my updated copy of Webster's Dictionary in which "Maybe" was re-defined as "Yes."

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I'm still waiting for my updated copy of Webster's Dictionary in which "Maybe" was re-defined as "Yes."


This kind of situation should only have 1 answer: NO.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This kind of situation should only have 1 answer: NO.


Jonathan would probably agree with you.

Problem is? People in extreme emotional states don't always say or do the right thing. People are flawed. Emotions are messy. If he had said that line to Clark in a different scene sometime later, you may have a point about Jonathan's character. But he didn't. He said it while he was freaking out at the possibility that armed government agents could be on their way to his home RIGHT NOW looking to capture and dissect his son.

----------


## Pinsir

> But JL is not a stepping stone, it cost 300M to made and was supposed to* be THE. MOVIE. to bring DCEU up high like the Avengers did.*  This is not a starting comic issue, this is a big big blockbuster movie to make huge box office profit otherwise the future of DCEU might suffer. You got to bring up your top choice. MoS did quite well with Zod and Faora, WW used Ares while there was a miscast. And in JL we got Steppenwolf when there are tons of big names to pick? Bad bad choice here.
> 
> Marvel used Loki because he was popular and indeed was one of the best villains they could use at that time since more than half of their top villains were on other company's hands.


No it wasn't, it was never going to beat Avengers gross total, nor breach a billion and exhausting Darkseid would not have made the film better. Steppenwolf did have a backstory developed for him, but guess what, it got cut. The same thing would have happened with any other villain. They had to develop the character for a bunch of new heroes and this was the best way to do that. 

Also Ares you saw in the film was pretty much how Ares is depicted 90% of the time, he's not really a great villain either. He mostly does evil stuff because he's evil.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Jonathan would probably agree with you.
> 
> Problem is? People in extreme emotional states don't always say or do the right thing. People are flawed. Emotions are messy. If he had said that line to Clark in a different scene sometime later, you may have a point about Jonathan's character. But he didn't. He said it while he was freaking out at the possibility that armed government agents could be on their way to his home RIGHT NOW looking to capture and dissect his son.


He can take metal from Clark's ship and get it tested which puts Clark in danger of exposure but Clark saving kids might be crossing a line? This Jonathan Kent's logic is dumb at least Clark showed he was using his powers to save people.

----------


## Jokerz79

Harley Quinn and Joker are a main reason I don't find the DCEU dark and will go as far to saw even with its jokes the MCU is darker. Gamora and Nebula are victims of child abuse, Black Widow was a victim of the Black Widow Program, Bucky is a victim of Hydra, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's backstory, and so on and son the MCU is full of tragic back stories.

Harley Quinn was tortured and turned into her current state by the Joker. In the comics and DCAU it was shown as a abusive relationship and one sided she loves him but he's using her throwing her aside, willing to let her die, and eve physically hitting her. He likes what she does for him she's devoted and he's using her and that's probably the joke to him. But in the DCEU Joker while twisting her into his partner in crime he also genuinely appears to care and love her and trying to be reunited with her. The DCEU took a dark and abusive relationship and turned it into a twisted love story.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> He can take metal from Clark's ship and get it tested which puts Clark in danger of exposure but Clark saving kids might be crossing a line? This Jonathan Kent's logic is dumb at least Clark showed he was using his powers to save people.


A (seemingly) useless chunk of metal that defied the testing resources of Kansas State University is not as likely to draw attention as a bunch of kids and parents running around telling everyone they know "OMG! Clark Kent can lift school buses!"

----------


## BatmanJones

> Killing isn't the issue.
> 
> Being told by a father figure and role model to let a bus full of innocent kids die, is a big issue.


Agree. Pa Kent was the biggest turnoff among many turnoffs about MoS. That wasn't any "Pa Kent" I ever read about.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Harley Quinn and Joker are a main reason I don't find the DCEU dark and will go as far to saw even with its jokes the MCU is darker. Gamora and Nebula are victims of child abuse, Black Widow was a victim of the Black Widow Program, Bucky is a victim of Hydra, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's backstory, and so on and son the MCU is full of tragic back stories.
> 
> Harley Quinn was tortured and turned into her current state by the Joker. In the comics and DCAU it was shown as a abusive relationship and one sided she loves him but he's using her throwing her aside, willing to let her die, and eve physically hitting her. He likes what she does for him she's devoted and he's using her and that's probably the joke to him. But in the DCEU Joker while twisting her into his partner in crime he also genuinely appears to care and love her and trying to be reunited with her. The DCEU took a dark and abusive relationship and turned it into a twisted love story.


They did that because the twisted love story version of the film tested better with audiences. It was a business decision based entirely on what seemed likely to sell better. 

Oh, and that twisted love story still involves the two of them running around and murdering people while laughing about it. That's pretty damn dark. Meanwhile? Black Widow's tragic back story amounts to her bemoaning that she killed a bunch of people and can't have kids. Gamora is astonishingly well-adjusted for someone who went through the life she did. She was seriously the most moral member of the team. Scarlet Witch bounced right back from her tragedy and became a pretty happy superhero. 

Bucky's just about the only one going through any real pathos with regard to his backstory.

----------


## Jokerz79

> A (seemingly) useless chunk of metal that defied the testing resources of Kansas State University is not as likely to draw attention as a bunch of kids and parents running around telling everyone they know "OMG! Clark Kent can lift school buses!"


If someone hands me a piece of metal that doesn't match anything on Earth I'm going to investigate. That is prove of something unearthly while like what happened that can make a B.S. excuse for what happened on the bus with Clark. Every Jonathan Kent I can think of has at one time or another told Clark to his his powers but all were also proud when he did break the rule to save lives.

----------


## Jokerz79

> They did that because the twisted love story version of the film tested better with audiences. It was a business decision based entirely on what seemed likely to sell better. 
> 
> Oh, and that twisted love story still involves the two of them running around and murdering people while laughing about it. That's pretty damn dark. Meanwhile? Black Widow's tragic back story amounts to her bemoaning that she killed a bunch of people and can't have kids. Gamora is astonishingly well-adjusted for someone who went through the life she did. She was seriously the most moral member of the team. Scarlet Witch bounced right back from her tragedy and became a pretty happy superhero. 
> 
> Bucky's just about the only one going through any real pathos with regard to his backstory.


I know they murder it's why I called it twisted. I'd also add Tony and his PTSD in Iron Man 3 but the Marvel heroes being well adjusted well a lot of people are they move on their past created who they are but didn't define them. Just like some people in real life while the Netflix shows explore the more broken side with Jessica and Punisher and the films have the characters who moved on over time.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Superman isn't a normal person he's Superman.
> 
> Children are still part of the audience and should be.
> 
> Last darkness doesn't equal depth in anyway.


I second that. All three of it. 

Dark Knight Trilogy has that depth to go with the darkness. Its how you do it right. If there is darkness there shall be light. Use that darkness to make the light grow stronger the ever and the feeling of joy and hope to have more impact.

On the opposite side of the spectrum the Raimi's Spider-man films did pretty well even if they were cartoonish and silver agey. One can't fault them to lack depth either. At least the first two.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> No it wasn't, it was never going to beat Avengers gross total, nor breach a billion and exhausting Darkseid would not have made the film better. Steppenwolf did have a backstory developed for him, but guess what, it got cut. The same thing would have happened with any other villain. They had to develop the character for a bunch of new heroes and this was the best way to do that. 
> 
> Also Ares you saw in the film was pretty much how Ares is depicted 90% of the time, he's not really a great villain either. He mostly does evil stuff because he's evil.


It wasn't going to beat the Avengers, but it was meant to bring up the DCEU box office. Darkseid is a easier way because the villain doesn't need a lot of magical rework to make him awesome because he already was very menacing, unlike Steppenwolf.

Ares wasn't a great villain but he was the best WW villain to use in a movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> If someone hands me a piece of metal that doesn't match anything on Earth I'm going to investigate. That is prove of something unearthly while like what happened that can make a B.S. excuse for what happened on the bus with Clark. Every Jonathan Kent I can think of has at one time or another told Clark to his his powers but all were also proud when he did break the rule to save lives.


It was a useless chunk of metal that had no apparent purpose. But sure, fine! You investigate! You track down Jonathan Kent and.......find a Kansas farmer and his wife living a peaceful, boring life with their (apparently) normal infant son. So, unless you have some reason to believe the child is also not from this world, you're not going to find much. Jonathan hid the ship, and he could've easily told that metallurgist that he literally just stumbled across that chunk while walking through a nondescript stretch of field. 

Unless you see Clark doing something strange, you're going to quickly conclude that the guy just stumbled across something. Not that he had anything else to do with it. 

And those other times Clark helped people in other universes were generally done under much more stealthy circumstances. Clark dashes across the football field to save Chloe Sullivan and nobody noticed a thing? No big deal. Clark lifts a freaking school bus and allows a couple dozen kids to see him doing it? Slightly bigger problem.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Agree. Pa Kent was the biggest turnoff among many turnoffs about MoS. That wasn't any "Pa Kent" I ever read about.


I'm sure you've read Birthright. The parallels are fairly strong IMO.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Jonathan would probably agree with you.
> 
> Problem is? People in extreme emotional states don't always say or do the right thing. People are flawed. Emotions are messy. If he had said that line to Clark in a different scene sometime later, you may have a point about Jonathan's character. But he didn't. He said it while he was freaking out at the possibility that armed government agents could be on their way to his home RIGHT NOW looking to capture and dissect his son.


That's not an excuse here, he didn't even say "NO of course, sorry you were right Clark". What we were expecting Jonathan was "You did the right thing Clark, I'm so proud of you, just be careful next time".

He was the person who raised Superman up, the role model for Superman to follow, such selfish and low opinion shouldn't exist at all.  

Armed government agents, so what? Is it the excuse to let a bus of kids die? Are we really watching a Superman movie?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> That's not an excuse here, he didn't even say "NO of course, sorry you were right Clark". What we were expecting Jonathan was "You did the right thing Clark, I'm so proud of you, just be careful next time".


Considering Clark continued to help people and WAS more careful? Odds are that conversation did, in fact, happen at some point. 




> He was the person who raised Superman up, the role model for Superman to follow, such selfish and low opinion shouldn't exist at all.


He was a human being, with all the attendant flaws and weaknesses. People have been raised by flat-out abusive fathers and gone on to become moral and heroic people in the past. I really fail to see how Superman can ONLY become Superman if he was raised by a flawless moral paragon, the likes of which do not exist in the real world. 




> Armed government agents, so what? Is it the excuse to let a bus of kids die? Are we really watching a Superman movie?


Yes. We're watching a Superman movie set in a realistic world in which the US Government WOULD do such terrible things to Clark if they had half a chance. We're watching a Superman movie in which Jonathan Kent is an actual human being and not a living saint. We're watching a Superman movie in which flawed people under extreme emotional duress don't always say the right thing.......just like people do in the real world EVERY DAY.

----------


## Pinsir

> It wasn't going to beat the Avengers, but it was meant to bring up the DCEU box office. Darkseid is a easier way because the villain doesn't need a lot of magical rework to make him awesome because he already was very menacing, unlike Steppenwolf.
> 
> Ares wasn't a great villain but he was the best WW villain to use in a movie.


DCEU always did well at the box office though, Wonder Woman is the most profitable CBM of the film for this year. If the message WB gets is to make films like that, then I'm happy. 

I think its also time to add a little bit more nuance to this debate about films; you don't need good villains to make a good film! Just look at the Indiana Jones films for instance, iconic stuff, but can you even remember the names of any villain in that franchise? Probably not. Yet those films have a great supporting cast, like Sallah and Henry Jones Senior.

At the Academy Awards though villains usually fall under the 'supporting cast' category (that is the award Ledger won) and I think that is a good way to categorize antagonists. Broadly speaking you just need a good supporting cast for a film, be it an antagonist or not. For the Wonder Woman film, we got Steve Trevor played by Chris Pine, probably the greatest supporting actor in a CBM since Heath Ledger and the uncontested best CBM romance. You really don't need a great villain when you have a great lead and great supporting cast.

Not to mention, I gather that you want Ares to be more menacing. In my rendition of the film, Ares would never have existed and Wonder Woman realizes she is chasing a fairy tale.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Considering Clark continued to help people and WAS more careful? Odds are that conversation did, in fact, happen at some point.


What do you mean MORE careful? Show me what could the KID Clark save those kids with a better way.





> He was a human being, with all the attendant flaws and weaknesses. People have been raised by flat-out abusive fathers and gone on to become moral and heroic people in the past. I really fail to see how Superman can ONLY become Superman if he was raised by a flawless moral paragon, the likes of which do not exist in the real world.


Bad excuse here, many many REAL people put so many innocent lives way before their own. Being selfish and low is not more realistic.





> Yes. We're watching a Superman movie set in a realistic world in which the US Government WOULD do such terrible things to Clark if they had half a chance. We're watching a Superman movie in which Jonathan Kent is an actual human being and not a living saint. We're watching a Superman movie in which flawed people under extreme emotional duress don't always say the right thing.......just like people do in the real world EVERY DAY.


So in order to prevent it, we are going to let a bus full of kids die, to protect Clark's secret? You sure it's "flawed" and not "utterly selfish and low"?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> DCEU always did well at the box office though, Wonder Woman is the most profitable CBM of the film for this year. If the message WB gets is to make films like that, then I'm happy. 
> 
> I think its also time to add a little bit more nuance to this debate about films; you don't need good villains to make a good film! Just look at the Indiana Jones films for instance, iconic stuff, but can you even remember the names of any villain in that franchise? Probably not. Yet those films have a great supporting cast, like Sallah and Henry Jones Senior.
> 
> At the Academy Awards though villains usually fall under the 'supporting cast' category (that is the award Ledger won) and I think that is a good way to categorize antagonists. Broadly speaking you just need a good supporting cast for a film, be it an antagonist or not. For the Wonder Woman film, we got Steve Trevor played by Chris Pine, probably the greatest supporting actor in a CBM since Heath Ledger and the uncontested best CBM romance. You really don't need a great villain when you have a great lead and great supporting cast.
> 
> Not to mention, I gather that you want Ares to be more menacing. In my rendition of the film, Ares would never have existed and Wonder Woman realizes she is chasing a fairy tale.


And Justice League was meant to bring this up to a post 1B level. 

You don't need good villains? Maybe not, but it's obviously easier to make one with good villain. We are talking about superhero movies here. I always think villains are very important.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> What do you mean MORE careful? Show me what could the KID Clark save those kids with a better way.


He couldn't have. The movie established that he had neither flight nor superspeed by that point. He was more careful FROM THAT POINT ON. Even still, he saved a bunch of guys on that oil rig and let them see he was clearly fireproof and superstrong. Doesn't mean he wasn't TRYING to maintain a low profile by wandering from place to place and using a fake name.




> Bad excuse here, many many REAL people put so many innocent lives way before their own. Being selfish and low is not more realistic.


Good thing no one SAID that, then. The point was you don't have to be raised by a living saint to become a good and heroic person. You can be raised by a flawed human being who, in an extreme emotional state, makes selfish statements that he doesn't really mean and turn out just fine as well. 




> So in order to prevent it, we are going to let a bus full of kids die, to protect Clark's secret? You sure it's "flawed" and not "utterly selfish and low"?


For the last time: JONATHAN KENT DIDN'T TELL CLARK HE SHOULD'VE LET THEM DIE! The entire message of that talk was NOT "Let people die to protect your secret." The message was "This could've gone very badly for all of us. BE MORE CAREFUL." That's it. That was the entirety of the substance of that conversation. "Be more careful in the future."

How horrible! How "utterly selfish and low," right?

----------


## Agent Z

> I feel that attention to detail to a largely irrelevant character in Diana's mythology for majority of her existence, the now retain WW backstory, and what hid plans were for the Amazons tells me enough how he approached this story and I'm happy those bits were left out. I'm not sure what compelled them to give this man an entire universe to create in the first place.


How is Zeus an irrelevant character to Diana's mythos?

----------


## Agent Z

> Superman can work with the dark tone, but 
> 
> 1. It would require a great amount of work to make it good. The traditional way is much safer and can produce good story with depth as well. So why try the hard way and fail?
> 
> It's not a good idea to make Jonathan Kent that selfish even if you want to work with it.
> 
> 
> 2. It usually fit the "elseworld" story instead of the mainstream issue.
> 
> ...


The DCEU is as much of an elseworld as anything else

----------


## Pinsir

> And Justice League was meant to bring this up to a post 1B level. 
> 
> You don't need good villains? Maybe not, but it's obviously easier to make one with good villain. We are talking about superhero movies here. I always think villains are very important.


I agree, in terms of superhero films with a proven legacy, like Superman I and II, Batman I and II, and the Dark Knight Trilogy, they all got extremely good villains. 

Keep in mind, I do want great villains from the DCEU, but I don't think we quiet at the point as we are with the MCU, in fact the cameo at the end of JL suggests this is something they intend to focus on.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He couldn't have. The movie established that he had neither flight nor superspeed by that point. He was more careful FROM THAT POINT ON. Even still, he saved a bunch of guys on that oil rig and let them see he was clearly fireproof and superstrong. Doesn't mean he wasn't TRYING to maintain a low profile by wandering from place to place and using a fake name.


So WHY did Jonathan blame his son at all when he already did what he got to do? Did he ever think about what could have happened if Clark didn't save the bus? Do you understand what kind of shadow would haunt Clark for his life if it happened? So many kids were save and all he could think is THIS?





> Good thing no one SAID that, then. The point was you don't have to be raised by a living saint to become a good and heroic person. You can be raised by a flawed human being who, in an extreme emotional state, makes selfish statements that he doesn't really mean and turn out just fine as well.


To save a bus of innocent kids surely doesn't require living saint level of morality at all. And above decent ppl would do it.





> For the last time: JONATHAN KENT DIDN'T TELL CLARK HE SHOULD'VE LET THEM DIE! The entire message of that talk was NOT "Let people die to protect your secret." The message was "This could've gone very badly for all of us. BE MORE CAREFUL." That's it. That was the entirety of the substance of that conversation. "Be more careful in the future."
> 
> How horrible! How "utterly selfish and low," right?


He did because he said "maybe" instead of a solid "NO", you understand that any decent human being would give this answer right?

Yes, anyone who could say something that's not a "NO" is very selfish and low. As a decent human being myself, I couldn't even think about so many innocent kids lose their lives, not to say "maybe" not save them when I had the power.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The DCEU is as much of an elseworld as anything else


It is mainstream, actually more mainstream than the comics because it's towards the general audience and require a much higher box office reception.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Considering Clark continued to help people and WAS more careful? Odds are that conversation did, in fact, happen at some point. 
> 
> 
> 
> He was a human being, with all the attendant flaws and weaknesses. People have been raised by flat-out abusive fathers and gone on to become moral and heroic people in the past. I really fail to see how Superman can ONLY become Superman if he was raised by a flawless moral paragon, the likes of which do not exist in the real world. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. We're watching a Superman movie set in a realistic world in which the US Government WOULD do such terrible things to Clark if they had half a chance. We're watching a Superman movie in which Jonathan Kent is an actual human being and not a living saint. We're watching a Superman movie in which flawed people under extreme emotional duress don't always say the right thing.......just like people do in the real world EVERY DAY.


Hear hear. I often find the ones who yell the loudest about him are not parents. Its easy to say if I had a kid... but its much harder to say it when you actually have them.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> So WHY did Jonathan blame his son at all when he already did what he got to do? Did he ever think about what could have happened if Clark didn't save the bus? Do you understand what kind of shadow would haunt Clark for his life if it happened? So many kids were save and all he could think is THIS?


He DIDN'T blame Clark. He told him to be more careful in the future. That's. It. 




> To save a bus of innocent kids surely doesn't require living saint level of morality at all. And above decent ppl would do it.


Clark did save innocent kids, so he's a decent person. Jonathan Kent didn't tell him not to save innocent kids, so he's a decent person as well.




> He did because he said "maybe" instead of a solid "NO", you understand that any decent human being would give this answer right?
> 
> Yes, anyone who could say something that's not a "NO" is very selfish and low. As a decent human being myself, I couldn't even think about so many innocent kids lose their lives, not to say "maybe" not save them when I had the power.


Try saying "NO" when it's your son under threat of being taken away from you and murdered. It's easy to be judgmental when you haven't been where the other character has been. You may very well find yourself feeling a little selfish for a hot minute or two.

Bottom line? He didn't say not to help people. He said "Be careful." Those are the facts, no matter how badly you want to twist them.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I would like to point out, once more, that it was one word in a 2.5 hour movie 4.5 years ago. Why waste time getting hung up on it, getting so mad about it? Seems odd to me. 

Different strokes, I guess.

----------


## Agent Z

> It is mainstream, actually more mainstream than the comics because it's towards the general audience and require a much higher box office reception.


It also exists outside of the DC universe canon. Batman Beyond and Injustice are also geared towards mainstream audiences as well. An adaptation does not have to follow the comics 1:1

----------


## Confuzzled

> Not to mention, I gather that you want Ares to be more menacing. In my rendition of the film, Ares would never have existed and Wonder Woman realizes she is chasing a fairy tale.


Isn't the concluding moral of this essentially the same as how it played out in the movie? In fact, it was literally the same at the point where Diana had a breakdown after killing Luddendorf and realized it was all for nothing. Then the appearance of Real Ares didn't really change much as he claimed (and the Lasso of Truth verified) that he had no influence over human beings whatsoever.

After that point, it was Ares just trying to seduce Diana over to the dark side and her beliefs and ideologies being tested to the max. The third act couldn't have been better IMO (other than better CGI).

----------


## Robotman

So apparently Paramount were just being petty dicks about Cavill not shaving his mustache. 

https://www.avclub.com/paramount-was...1820801632/amp

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Superman can work with the dark tone, but 
> 
> 1. It would require a great amount of work to make it good. The traditional way is much safer and can produce good story with depth as well. So why try the hard way and fail?
> 
> It's not a good idea to make Jonathan Kent that selfish even if you want to work with it.
> 
> 
> 2. It usually fit the "elseworld" story instead of the mainstream issue.
> 
> ...


This sounds really safe. Basically the mindset that gave us JL.

Also, guess what...the DCEU is an elseworld.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Superman isn't a normal person he's Superman.
> 
> Children are still part of the audience and should be.
> 
> Last darkness doesn't equal depth in anyway.


Uh, he's raised as a normal person. Just like a lot of heroes, in comics. Unlike the Donner films, he wasn't raised to be Jesus.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Agree. Pa Kent was the biggest turnoff among many turnoffs about MoS. That wasn't any "Pa Kent" I ever read about.


I believe that was the point.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> DCEU always did well at the box office though, Wonder Woman is the most profitable CBM of the film for this year. If the message WB gets is to make films like that, then I'm happy. 
> 
> I think its also time to add a little bit more nuance to this debate about films; you don't need good villains to make a good film! Just look at the Indiana Jones films for instance, iconic stuff, but can you even remember the names of any villain in that franchise? Probably not. Yet those films have a great supporting cast, like Sallah and Henry Jones Senior.
> 
> At the Academy Awards though villains usually fall under the 'supporting cast' category (that is the award Ledger won) and I think that is a good way to categorize antagonists. Broadly speaking you just need a good supporting cast for a film, be it an antagonist or not. For the Wonder Woman film, we got Steve Trevor played by Chris Pine, probably the greatest supporting actor in a CBM since Heath Ledger and the uncontested best CBM romance. You really don't need a great villain when you have a great lead and great supporting cast.
> 
> Not to mention, I gather that you want Ares to be more menacing. In my rendition of the film, Ares would never have existed and Wonder Woman realizes she is chasing a fairy tale.


Ooo, I like that Diana would've realized that Ares would've had absolutely no hand in WWI. I still would've had Ares, but it would've been Azzarello's Ares, and he's kinda just meandering about, and just observing, and not utilizing the strength humanity inadvertently gives him. As it's not needed, and he's kinda lost his thirst for war.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> How is Zeus an irrelevant character to Diana's mythos?


That's what I thought. I responded.

He responded back.

No need to continue that discussion.

I'm mean, it's Zeus....

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It is mainstream, actually more mainstream than the comics because it's towards the general audience and require a much higher box office reception.


Are you serious? The MCU is mainstream, but it's also an elseworld because it's radically changed so much of the Marvel mythos. 

I mean, look at what they did to Ultron! They've also made Loki from one of their most dangerous villains into a side act that NO ONE takes seriously anymore. 

So yeah, it can be directed at the mainstream, but not have to be directed to be safe as hell.

I mean Injustice has had great success with the mainstream audience, and that is about a Superman willing to lobotomize all that oppose him, and murder children that disagree with him. That's the fighting game having ESPORTS tournaments on ESPN. People will see that, and think it's a cool game. Then they'll play it, and see Superman essentially indoctrinate millions, if not billions, to use as his personal army.

----------


## Elmo

Yeah Injustice is a lot of fun and the story itself is pretty cool but I hate that it's popular because it's taken an already stigmatized to death character and made him an unlikable evil tyrant. So audiences simply don't know who the real Superman even is.

And I'll be honest, Cavill's portrayal of Superman in JL was seriously underwhelming compared to his masterful performance in MoS

----------


## Carabas

> The Daily Planet wasnt destroyed, and half of Metropolis is exaggeration. It was, in reality, a small part of a massive city as seen by the size of memorial park in BvS & JL.


It getting retconned to be smaller in later movies doesn't count.

----------


## Elmo

> It getting retconned to be smaller in later movies doesn't count.


He's right though.




Description:

Despite powerful ground zero imagery, the film clearly shows Metropolis as saved and standing rather than wrecked and wiped out.  Detractors will often say "the entire city was destroyed!" or "half the city died!" and so on.  This video may provide some perspective on the actual degree of damage.

1. Metropolis is enormous compared to the damaged area.
2. The Planet stands despite being in the military's strike zone.
3. Superman and Zod clearly battle over an intact Metropolis.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah Injustice is a lot of fun and the story itself is pretty cool but I hate that it's popular because it's taken an already stigmatized to death character and made him an unlikable evil tyrant. So audiences simply don't know who the real Superman even is.
> 
> And I'll be honest, Cavill's portrayal of Superman in JL was seriously underwhelming compared to his masterful performance in MoS


I wouldn't say masterful, but it was damn good job, given the direction of the movie, and the fact that it was originally part 1 of a Supes trilogy.

----------


## Korath

If by the "traditional" approach for Superman peoples mean the Donner film, I can guarantee that it won't work outside of the U.S. that much. For instance, the "traditional" Superman is still seen among my friends (a rather large group of geeks yet) to be an outdated and hardly interesting character, and even I, who became a fan of him with New 52 was underwhelmed by some scenes in JL (the scenes where he saves civilians by flying with a whole building being particularly bad, coming out of nowhere and really "stupid" in my eyes, for so many reasons - among which the impossibility of such a building not falling apart when carried that way).

I really think that Superman, with his charged iconography is actually harder to sell outside of the U.S. that the likes of Batman or even Wonder Woman (whose setting in WWI was a masterstroke, because it showed her as a global hero, even if she was in the allied camp), kind of like Captain America, who's perceived as one of the weaker members of the MCU among the "geek community" here in France, because he lacks the resonance that he has for US viewers). That's not to say that he can't be, but the "traditional" takes on him won't fly well in today's world (at least I think it wouldn't, I wouldn't go and pay to watch this, for instance). This takes has simply too much of an outdated era vibe to work today. Some may wish for a return to the 70's or the 80's Superman, but, for me, it would be a mistake.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If by the "traditional" approach for Superman peoples mean the Donner film, I can guarantee that it won't work outside of the U.S. that much. For instance, the "traditional" Superman is still seen among my friends (a rather large group of geeks yet) to be an outdated and hardly interesting character, and even I, who became a fan of him with New 52 was underwhelmed by some scenes in JL (the scenes where he saves civilians by flying with a whole building being particularly bad, coming out of nowhere and really "stupid" in my eyes, for so many reasons - among which the impossibility of such a building not falling apart when carried that way).
> 
> I really think that Superman, with his charged iconography is actually harder to sell outside of the U.S. that the likes of Batman or even Wonder Woman (whose setting in WWI was a masterstroke, because it showed her as a global hero, even if she was in the allied camp), kind of like Captain America, who's perceived as one of the weaker members of the MCU among the "geek community" here in France, because he lacks the resonance that he has for US viewers). That's not to say that he can't be, but the "traditional" takes on him won't fly well in today's world (at least I think it wouldn't, I wouldn't go and pay to watch this, for instance). This takes has simply too much of an outdated era vibe to work today. Some may wish for a return to the 70's or the 80's Superman, but, for me, it would be a mistake.


It's also the fact that the traditional Supes is as American as apple pie...that doesn't sell well to non-US audiences, for obvious reasons.

----------


## Elmo

I think getting rid of the stigmas around Superman entirely is the start to creating a Superman that audiences will enjoy.

*"He's too powerful"* - Limit the strength of his powers; show how even with them he still struggles; some battles aren't won with superpowers. Lots you can do.

*"There are no stakes; he's died before and he's practically unkillable. Why should we route for him?"* - Show audiences that it isn't about Superman surviving, it's about whether or not he can save the world/people in danger. *Show his selflessness*.

*"He's distinctly American, which limits the stories you can tell."* - The "Superman represents America" theme is just tired at this point. Superman should represent freedom and peace for all humankind, not just the United States. Do something to pull him away from this idea. Just keep Superman and politics separate from each other.
*
"He's boring."* - I see this one the most, and it's because it's true. Superman outside of the comics (MoS and BvS being personal exceptions, to an extent) is a ridiculously boring character with no one writing the guy actually understanding what makes him so incredible. The "outsider on earth" story? Seen it a million times. "Most powerful guy, big macho man, leader of the Justice League?" Trillion times. There's no real character behind the Superman we've seen and he comes off as stuck up, know-it-all, etc. Because of his virtues, he is written as a character who seems to always know what's best--even when he doesn't, which allows someone like Batman to put him in place. It's just wrong.

They need to stop setting up Superman as this high and mighty character who is supposed to be the most important guy ever. He is a lot of things, but when you push and push him as the most important person in the room, guess what? People are gonna hate him. They need to dumb him down a little, and put him on the same level as any other character. Really get into his humanity, his social life, his work, his family. His rogues gallery. His whole mythology. 

It's not about making him happy all the time or making corny jokes. It's about making him a real character without thinking about what came before. What I always loved about Superman is that he was this amazingly powerful being and yet he lived life like an ordinary human being, faced ordinary problems like relationship troubles or bills to pay, had a family and friends and social life. He was a human being (although literally an alien) with human morals and human issues and traits.

So, the easiest way to do it, in my opinion, as someone studying writing, is to just imagine YOU as Superman. You, a (supposedly) regular Joe, are Superman. So just imagine what your life is like, and who you are and how you act around people based on not only the powers you now have but also your background and what you were taught growing up. 

 It's not easy, since he's been around for almost 80 years now, but it's doable.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think getting rid of the stigmas around Superman entirely is the start to creating a Superman that audiences will enjoy.
> 
> *"He's too powerful"* - Limit the strength of his powers; show how even with them he still struggles; some battles aren't won with superpowers. Lots you can do.
> 
> *"There are no stakes; he's died before and he's practically unkillable. Why should we route for him?"* - Show audiences that it isn't about Superman surviving, it's about whether or not he can save the world/people in danger. *Show his selflessness*.
> 
> *"He's distinctly American, which limits the stories you can tell."* - The "Superman represents America" theme is just tired at this point. Superman should represent freedom and peace for all humankind, not just the United States. Do something to pull him away from this idea. Just keep Superman and politics separate from each other.
> *
> "He's boring."* - I see this one the most, and it's because it's true. Superman outside of the comics (MoS and BvS being personal exceptions, to an extent) is a ridiculously boring character with no one writing the guy actually understanding what makes him so incredible. The "outsider on earth" story? Seen it a million times. "Most powerful guy, big macho man, leader of the Justice League?" Trillion times. There's no real character behind the Superman we've seen and he comes off as stuck up, know-it-all, etc. Because of his virtues, he is written as a character who seems to always know what's best--even when he doesn't, which allows someone like Batman to put him in place. It's just wrong.
> ...


It is doable. MoS, and BvS:UE, happened. There was backlash for some reason. 

I bet you a lot of the people who criticized his portrayal love the Injustice franchise. Hell, I bet that franchise got people to like Supes.

But I agree with you, completely. Another problem with JL was how Supes was portrayed while among them. He makes them completely irrelevant, and he's seen as far stronger than even the greek gods...which is just off-putting. Steppenwolf  didn't need to match Supes blow, for blow, but he could've had greater reaction speed, or instinctual dodging ability gained through thousands of years of combat experience. He could've come prepared for a Kryptonian, with the means to weaken him him, and render him not as big a threat. He also should've coordinated his army to attack random cities, and that would keep Flash, and Supes, busy racing around Europe; divide, and conquer, type of stuff.

----------


## Soubhagya

These things are old stuff. Superman is boring. Superman is OP. He is too perfect. Such ideas were always there in comics. Great writers have struggled with it. Even before we were born. And writers and the people in the comics got around that in creative ways and told interesting stories. Here is what Grant Morrison has to say about Superman.

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/...love_superman/

I find it interesting that some fans are saying that Superman is unpopular because Superman can't get rid of Reeve's interpretation. Yet here we are. We got rid of it. It did not work well either. 

Reeve is not the only way to do Superman. Its just that they don't know how to make it work. I would say that Superman Returns did not get the character either. It looks and sounds like Reeve. But it is not. Cavill tried something different. Its when they tried to actively go away from previous works it did not work. 

Why is there no balance? You either try to ape Reeve or try to run away from him. Extremes don't work for Superman. His is a subtle character. And Superman is much more then Reeve. Its one interpretation that worked well. And that's it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> These things are old stuff. Superman is boring. Superman is OP. He is too perfect. Such ideas were always there in comics. Great writers have struggled with it. Even before we were born. And writers and the people in the comics got around that in creative ways and told interesting stories. Here is what Grant Morrison has to say about Superman.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/...love_superman/
> 
> I find it interesting that some fans are saying that Superman is unpopular because Superman can't get rid of Reeve's interpretation. Yet here we are. We got rid of it. It did not work well either. 
> 
> Reeve is not the only way to do Superman. Its just that they don't know how to make it work. I would say that Superman Returns did not get the character either. It looks and sounds like Reeve. But it is not. Cavill tried something different. Its when they tried to actively try to go away from previous works it did not work. 
> 
> Why is there no balance? You either try to ape Reeve or try to run away from him. Extremes don't work for Superman. His is a subtle character. And Superman is much more then Reeve. Its one interpretation that worked well. And that's it.


I still claim that, unlike the others, Cavill's Superman was merely established in his solo, as it was a part 1. He never got a full arc, so we never got to see if he was going to be that middle ground, or not.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I still claim that, unlike the others, Cavill's Superman was merely established in his solo, as it was a part 1. He never got a full arc, so we never got to see if he was going to be that middle ground, or not.


And i agree with you. I was really interested in seeing the whole story. Instead his story was relegated to the background to start DC's answer to the Avengers. Now it looks like we have three Superman films at the surface. But in reality they are not. 

Poor Supes is now a non-entity. An entire generation of people will grow up thinking that Superman works as a villain.  :Frown:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I would like to point out, once more, that it was one word in a 2.5 hour movie 4.5 years ago. Why waste time getting hung up on it, getting so mad about it? Seems odd to me. 
> 
> Different strokes, I guess.


Because beating a dead horse is one of the favorite past times around these parts.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> And i agree with you. I was really interested in seeing the whole story. Instead his story was relegated to the background to start DC's answer to the Avengers. Now it looks like we have three Superman films at the surface. But in reality they are not. 
> 
> Poor Supes is now a non-entity. An entire generation of people will grow up thinking that Superman works as a villain.


BvS and JL are Superman movies in the sense that it's his presence ( in BvS,) and lack thereof ( JL) that drives the narrative and the actions of our other main characters. However, Supes himself has little shown character growth aside from dialogue implying things, but we don't see tangible proof. 

I've said it before, BvS plays like a grand finale to a trilogy, but we never got to see the middle chapter. If we had just gotten an MOS 2 in between MOS and BvS, I think a lot of the issues with the DCEU's building, especially as far as Supes is concerned, would have been solved. They could have used the film to highlight the good side of being Superman in places. BvS then could have shown the flip side of it. 

Of course you'd still have the same suspects screaming at the top of their lungs " Not muh Superman!" , But I think the darker tone of BvS would have gone over better with audiences had it been shown in a proper Superman sequel before hand that at his core Superman was still the same guy you grew up with, just in a more realistic World where his actions have consequences, good and bad. All we saw with MOS and BvS for the most part was the bad. The good was there, but as I said before in another thread , sometimes people need things spelled out. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> How is Zeus an irrelevant character to Diana's mythos?


"largely irrelevant" meaning mostly irrelevant since for a majority of her existence he played a very small role in her mythology only showing up in somewhat minor roles until the new 52 which I stated im not a fan of how they added him.

----------


## Doctor Know

> It getting retconned to be smaller in later movies doesn't count.


Just like Marvel, right?


Daredevil season 1 - Hundreds dead.




Civil War - Just kidding. It was only 74.

----------


## Carabas

> "largely irrelevant" meaning mostly irrelevant since for a majority of her existence he played a very small role in her mythology only showing up in somewhat minor roles until the new 52 which I stated im not a fan of how they added him.


I feel strongly feel that Zeus remained largely irrelevant even after he became Diana's father.

----------


## Carabas

> Just like Marvel, right?


"Look, the other guys do it too" has not ever been a valid excuse.

----------


## Agent Z

> "Look, the other guys do it too" has not ever been a valid excuse.


Thing is DC never really did any retconiing of civilian deaths while Matvel did

----------


## Lex Luthor

> I feel strongly feel that Zeus remained largely irrelevant even after he became Diana's father.


I said something similar in my second reply but that part was worth ignoring for some reason

----------


## Doctor Know

> "Look, the other guys do it too" has not ever been a valid excuse.


Marvel did it first though. The MCU is the trendsetter. And people want the DCEU to emmulate the MCU. 

Lol

Just reminding everyone what the facts are.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Marvel did it first though. The MCU is the trendsetter. And people want the DCEU to emmulate the MCU. 
> 
> Lol
> 
> Just reminding everyone what the facts are.


People only want DC to emulate Marvel in that they want DC’s movies to have coherent plots. You know, like the one Wonder Woman has?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> If by the "traditional" approach for Superman peoples mean the Donner film, I can guarantee that it won't work outside of the U.S. that much. For instance, the "traditional" Superman is still seen among my friends (a rather large group of geeks yet) to be an outdated and hardly interesting character, and even I, who became a fan of him with New 52 was underwhelmed by some scenes in JL (the scenes where he saves civilians by flying with a whole building being particularly bad, coming out of nowhere and really "stupid" in my eyes, for so many reasons - among which the impossibility of such a building not falling apart when carried that way).
> 
> I really think that Superman, with his charged iconography is actually harder to sell outside of the U.S. that the likes of Batman or even Wonder Woman (whose setting in WWI was a masterstroke, because it showed her as a global hero, even if she was in the allied camp), kind of like Captain America, who's perceived as one of the weaker members of the MCU among the "geek community" here in France, because he lacks the resonance that he has for US viewers). That's not to say that he can't be, but the "traditional" takes on him won't fly well in today's world (at least I think it wouldn't, I wouldn't go and pay to watch this, for instance). This takes has simply too much of an outdated era vibe to work today. Some may wish for a return to the 70's or the 80's Superman, but, for me, it would be a mistake.


Because the MoS take on Superman is so popular? At this point, any take thats not like the New 52/MoS take would be more well received by audiences. The likes of MoS and BvS have done so much damage to the Superman brand that DC needs to do a full scale walking back. And regardless of whether some like it or not, theres no denying at this point that the perception of the general audience of DCEU films is not really a good one (with the exception of Wonder Woman).

Anyway, the fact that Captain America films have been super successful and that the third installment grossed over a billion dollars, more than the first ever movie with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman together, shows that he does appeal to audiences outside of America.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Just like Marvel, right?
> 
> 
> Daredevil season 1 - Hundreds dead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Civil War - Just kidding. It was only 74.


They really did that? Wow.

Didn't really notice that they adjusted the numbers down in Civil War. Although to be fair my memory of CW is a bit fuzzy as it wasn't very memorable overall, IMO.

Probably saw the backlash MOS got and someone at Marvel said " we really need to retcon this before someone notices that we did destruction porn and mass casualties before DC did and calls us on it."

----------


## Korath

> People only want DC to emulate Marvel in that they want DC’s movies to have coherent plots. You know, like the one Wonder Woman has?


You mean "plots" like the one in Civil War, when the collateral damages from Avengers were exhumed several years after the film and suddenly (and quite unrealistically) became an issue while an über secret agent with zero connection to the comics version of Zemo went to create some insane plan which went nowhere when he could have simply achieved the same result (dismantling the Avengers -as if it was what Civil War did instead of unnecessary drama made worse by over-abundant jokes) by sending the video of Bucky killing Tony's parents ? 

I'm sorry, you can go enjoy your nth iteration of the same story with different character called the MCU, I'll enjoy some great movies with character development and actual reflexion on what heroes are and should be, like MoS and BvS (and even JL to a lesser extent).

----------


## Doctor Know

> People only want DC to emulate Marvel in that they want DC’s movies to have coherent plots. You know, like the one Wonder Woman has?


Cohrent plots is the complaint now, is it?

And here I thought the complaints were "grimdark", "lack of color", "lack of comedy", "heroes killing their bad guys", "destruction porn", "heroes not smilling", and other manner of non-complaints that WB took to heart and catered to when they altered JL. Not that it worked out for them, as people are still not satisfied. 

I don't think people had much to complain about beforehand. And thus what's "wrong" with the DCEU changes from day to day, or as fast and frequently as a critical person can change their mind. 




> Because the MoS take on Superman is so popular? At this point, any take that’s not like the New 52/MoS take would be more well received by audiences. The likes of MoS and BvS have done so much damage to the Superman brand that DC needs to do a full scale walking back. And regardless of whether some like it or not, there’s no denying at this point that the perception of the general audience of DCEU films is not really a good one (with the exception of Wonder Woman).


I don't recall Superman having huge swaths of fans championing him and his movies. Before MoS, his last film (Superman Returns) left audiences indifferent. Despite it ticking all the boxes supposed fans of the character say they want. Plus, the coveted "Certified Fresh" rating on Rotten Tomatoes. And yet, nobody will defend it or hold it up as an example. Why?

Man of Steel made Superman topical again, and his IP has never had as much monetary success as he does now. 




> Anyway, the fact that Captain America films have been super successful and that the third installment grossed over a billion dollars, more than the first ever movie with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman together, shows that he does appeal to audiences outside of America.


Captain America 3 that featured nearly every single Avenger thus far and included the debut of a brand new Amazing Spider-Man and Black Panther. Versus the first gathering of the DC Trinty.

Hmmm, really not a fair comparison.





> You mean "plots" like the one in Civil War, when the collateral damages from Avengers were exhumed several years after the film and suddenly (and quite unrealistically) became an issue while an über secret agent with zero connection to the comics version of Zemo went to create some insane plan which went nowhere when he could have simply achieved the same result (dismantling the Avengers -as if it was what Civil War did instead of unnecessary drama made worse by over-abundant jokes) by sending the video of Bucky killing Tony's parents ?


Zemo is so unbelievable in that film. He basically bats a thousand and succeeds at every goal he set out to achieve, except killing himself. With all the moving parts, government bases in several different countries, security clearances/access badges, bombing the UN and instigating the pursuit of Bucky, personel in charge (remember, he killed the doctor who would be in charge of interrogating Bucky days prior to Bucky's capture), knowing the Avengers would find him, and setting up a VHS and VCR to show Cap and Iron Man the murder of the Starks. 

It's like Zemo had the script for the movie and that's how he had all this foreknowledge.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> You mean "plots" like the one in Civil War, when the collateral damages from Avengers were exhumed several years after the film and suddenly (and quite unrealistically) became an issue while an über secret agent with zero connection to the comics version of Zemo went to create some insane plan which went nowhere when he could have simply achieved the same result (dismantling the Avengers -as if it was what Civil War did instead of unnecessary drama made worse by over-abundant jokes) by sending the video of Bucky killing Tony's parents ? 
> 
> I'm sorry, you can go enjoy your nth iteration of the same story with different character called the MCU, I'll enjoy some great movies with character development and actual reflexion on what heroes are and should be, like MoS and BvS (and even JL to a lesser extent).


How is Civil War at all the “nth iteration of the same story”? The Captain America films are incredibly different from other MCU films like Guardians if the Galaxy and Thor. Winter Soldier was a straight up political spy thriller and Civil War was about government overreach and friends against friends. Now, how is that at all similar to something like Spider-Man Homecoming, which is a coming of age tale about a kid trying to prove himself to the adults?

And to answer your question about Zemo, he wanted to destroy the Avengers from within and weaken their trust in each other first. Using Bucky as the scapegoat for a terrorist attack was the perfect way to do that because (1) the assassination of tony’s parents was over two decades ago and (2) at a time when Bucky was quite clearly being controlled by Hydra/the Soviets. Zemo wanted to turn the public and the other Avengers against Cap, so an event from that long ago that could have easily been explained as not Bucky’s fault wasn’t gonna cut it. He needed an event that was much more recent and broad reaching. Releasing the video would have only really upset Tony (and it did). The other Avengers might have even been more sympathetic to Bucky because they likely would have been able to recognize that he was the victim of brainwashing.

And again, the fact that most reviewers hated BvS and that general audiences have started to sour on the DCEU in general (as seen in the JL box office) is probably evidence that those movies aren’t the “masterpieces” that fans wanted them to be.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> How is Civil War at all the nth iteration of the same story? The Captain America films are incredibly different from other MCU films like Guardians if the Galaxy and Thor. Winter Soldier was a straight up political spy thriller and Civil War was about government overreach and friends against friends. Now, how is that at all similar to something like Spider-Man Homecoming, which is a coming of age tale about a kid trying to prove himself to the adults?


They all have jokes, duh.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> And again, the fact that most reviewers hated BvS and that general audiences have started to sour on the DCEU in general (as seen in the JL box office) is probably evidence that those movies aren’t the “masterpieces” that fans wanted them to be.


Stop using differing opinions as evidence that fans can't consider DC films great works of art. It doesn't work.

----------


## Korath

> And again, the fact that most reviewers hated BvS and that general audiences have started to sour on the DCEU in general (as seen in the JL box office) is probably evidence that those movies aren’t the “masterpieces” that fans wanted them to be.


No, it is evidence of how audience have become used to average to mediocre movies (calling Winter Soldier a good thriller is laughable when it is so full of holes) and are actually offended when a movie actually asks them not to be passive sheep when watching it. Yes, BvS is a masterpiece, precisely because it does what Marvel and Disney refuses to do with their franchise, which is being ambitious, realistic and still breathtaking. That critics are in favor of the bland MCU over that kind of story, even when the cinematic release of BvS was easily understandable, if underwhelming compared to its UE version, is more saddening than anything. In twenty years, people will still talk about BvS  and defend it with passion. Beyond Iron Man and Avengers, I highly doubt that any MCU movies will be remembered as vividly.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Cohrent plots is the complaint now, is it?
> 
> And here I thought the complaints were "grimdark", "lack of color", "lack of comedy", "heroes killing their bad guys", "destruction porn", "heroes not smilling", and other manner of non-complaints that WB took to heart and catered to when they altered JL. Not that it worked out for them, as people are still not satisfied.


Those things only serve to highlight that the film doesn’t have a great plot. This idea that dark CBMs are never well liked is bunk because movies like the Dark Knight trilogy and Logan exist. Even Civil War and Winter Soldier explored some very dark themes.




> I don't recall Superman having huge swaths of fans championing him and his movies. Before MoS, his last film (Superman Returns) left audiences indifferent. Despite it ticking all the boxes supposed fans of the character say they want. Plus, the coveted "Certified Fresh" rating on Rotten Tomatoes. And yet, nobody will defend it or hold it up as an example. Why?


Uh, the Reeves Superman is still held up to this day as the definitive Superman. And while I’m not saying Superman should never change, the DCEU Superman was such a polar opposite to an iteration that made an iconic character even more iconic that if didn’t go over well with fans. If Superman is anything, he is a symbol of hope and someone who wants to be the hero. DCEU Superman is someone who begrudgingly is the hero.




> Man of Steel made Superman topical again, and his IP has never had as much monetary success as he does now.


Again, critical and fan backlash would disagree with that. Heck, even the apparent audience fatigue of bad DVEU movies would serve as counter evidence to your point. It’s not often that a blockbuster CBM is dethroned in its second week by a Pixar film.




> Captain America 3 that featured nearly every single Avenger thus far and included the debut of a brand new Amazing Spider-Man and Black Panther. Versus the first gathering of the DC Trinty.
> 
> Hmmm, really not a fair comparison.


So, on the one hand we have a film that brought together the Holy Trinity if DC comics, all pop culture icons since the 40s for the very first time ever, and on the other we have a movie that brought together several characters who’d been together for several films already, Spider-Man and BP being the only new additions and BP, while iconic, not having as much recognition as Wonder Woman or Superman or Batman. I’d say it’s more than a fair comparison.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> (On Writing Superman)So, the easiest way to do it, in my opinion, as someone studying writing, is to just imagine YOU as Superman. You, a (supposedly) regular Joe, are Superman. So just imagine what your life is like, and who you are and how you act around people based on not only the powers you now have but also your background and what you were taught growing up. 
> 
>  It's not easy, since he's been around for almost 80 years now, but it's doable.


This reminds me of the way Max Landis wrote superman in American Alien. No matter what, he still felt like a person that I could see on the street and have a conversation with, while still being superman. Probably why its my preferred vision to bring to screen.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> No, it is evidence of how audience have become used to average to mediocre movies (calling Winter Soldier a good thriller is laughable when it is so full of holes) and are actually offended when a movie actually asks them not to be passive sheep when watching it. Yes, BvS is a masterpiece, precisely because it does what Marvel and Disney refuses to do with their franchise, which is being ambitious, realistic and still breathtaking. That critics are in favor of the bland MCU over that kind of story, even when the cinematic release of BvS was easily understandable, if underwhelming compared to its UE version, is more saddening than anything. In twenty years, people will still talk about BvS  and defend it with passion. Beyond Iron Man and Avengers, I highly doubt that any MCU movies will be remembered as vividly.


You can beat the drum of “Marvel is overrated” and “there’s a bias” and “Marvel fans are sheep” all you want, but that doesn’t make it true. I never said all Marvel movies are perfect and that some don’t have plot holes because they do (Iron Man 3, for example). But plot holes are better than not having a plot to begin with. Subtle character development is better than rushed and slapped together character dynamics.

And we can say that BvS is ambitious. But ambition means nothing if the execution is lackluster. Also, breathtaking is a very strong word to use when the CGI and costume designs or some DCEU characters look like CGI nightmares and rejected transformer designs. And I’m not saying this to down DC because I love DC. But this is not a good vision of the DC universe. Wonder Woman was breathtaking. BvS and now JL are obviously not.

It’s obvious that the majority of people don’t share the opinion that BvS was good or that the DCEU is headed in the right direction. You might wish that the critics opinions didn’t matter, but they do. Most of the time, critics are fans after all.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Because the MoS take on Superman is so popular? At this point, any take that’s not like the New 52/MoS take would be more well received by audiences. The likes of MoS and BvS have done so much damage to the Superman brand that DC needs to do a full scale walking back. And regardless of whether some like it or not, there’s no denying at this point that the perception of the general audience of DCEU films is not really a good one (with the exception of Wonder Woman).
> 
> Anyway, the fact that Captain America films have been super successful and that the third installment grossed over a billion dollars, more than the first ever movie with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman together, shows that he does appeal to audiences outside of America.


There's a difference between " walking back"  and reversion to a previous version because it gives the older generations the warm fuzzys of nostalgia.

Anf the reason why CW did a billion was because it was for all intents and purposes, Avengers 2.5. If Captain America on his own caught the hearts and minds of the world, Winter Soldier ( a far superior movie to CW and truly a Captain America movie) would have done a billion. 

Plus, again, Captain America is mostly fresh and new to the audience, as well as most of Marvel's icons , which means they have less baggage of expectations and aren't perceived as the same old same old.

Does that mean Snyder's approach caught on? Obviously not, but the answer is not reverting to the Donner version or a like version for the sake of nostalgia . I guarantee you, if the next Superman film ends up highly in the vein of Donner, or ends up slavish to that version, it'll gross less than MOS. I mean, why would you go to the theater to watch a knock off when you could go and just rent or stream the Donner films?

With a character like Superman and to a lesser extent Batman, you HAVE to reinvent the wheel a little if you are going to get people to take notice. You can't keep the character stuck in the past preserved in Amber. Does that mean Snyder's way was the only way? Not at all. There is a balance to be found. Doesn't mean we need to revert to what worked twice in 1978 and 1980  for the sake of it. The character has to continue to evolve. Otherwise in a generation or two, no one will care at all except us aging fan boys.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Does that mean Snyder's approach caught on? Obviously not, but the answer is not reverting to the Donner version or a like version for the sake of nostalgia . I guarantee you, if the next Superman film ends up highly in the vein of Donner, or ends up direvitive of that version, it'll gross less than MOS. I mean, why would you go to the theater to watch a knock off when you could go and just rent or stream the Donner films?


To extend my efforts to get this away from Marvel vs. DC, I wholeheartedly agree with the above. 

I think Snyder got too angsty with Superman, but I think making him an actual person and not just an icon was a good first step. Mentioned American Alien above, as thats more of what I'd like to see from on screen superman.

----------


## Soubhagya

> BvS and JL are Superman movies in the sense that it's his presence ( in BvS,) and lack thereof ( JL) that drives the narrative and the actions of our other main characters. However, Supes himself has little shown character growth aside from dialogue implying things, but we don't see tangible proof. 
> 
> I've said it before, BvS plays like a grand finale to a trilogy, but we never got to see the middle chapter. If we had just gotten an MOS 2 in between MOS and BvS, I think a lot of the issues with the DCEU's building, especially as far as Supes is concerned, would have been solved. They could have used the film to highlight the good side of being Superman in places. BvS then could have shown the flip side of it. 
> 
> Of course you'd still have the same suspects screaming at the top of their lungs " Not muh Superman!" , But I think the darker tone of BvS would have gone over better with audiences had it been shown in a proper Superman sequel before hand that at his core Superman was still the same guy you grew up with, just in a more realistic World where his actions have consequences, good and bad. All we saw with MOS and BvS for the most part was the bad. The good was there, but as I said before in another thread , sometimes people need things spelled out. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.


I think you are right. People can't believe that Superman was not loved when alive. Its not true. Can a living divisive figure get a statue erected in the middle of a city? Superman was not a divisive figure for the first eighteen months after the Battle of Metropolis. Perry mentions after the incident in the desert 'End of world's love affair of Superman'. Before that Superman was quite liked by the people in general. The desert incident changed the public opinion. Why was Superman disturbed on hearing such discussions? It was something recent.

Those eighteen months were an important part of the story. If BvS is Empire Strikes Back, MoS hardly works as New Hope. It ended with so much destruction and the tone was a bit too dour to make such comparisons. 

Superman's presence and absence is tackled in BvS and JL. But Superman himself is properly tackled in Man of Steel. Is it a wonder why people don't care for the character of Superman? The last two films did not care either. I am somewhat harsh here. I am bitter. Of the Trinity the future of Superman appears the darkest even if Cavill himself is a good actor who is so passionate about the character.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Those things only serve to highlight that the film doesnt have a great plot. This idea that dark CBMs are never well liked is bunk because movies like the Dark Knight trilogy and Logan exist. Even Civil War and Winter Soldier explored some very dark themes.


Great plot? MOS was a hero's journey and alien invasion film. In recent memory, several MCU, Star Trek and Transformers movies have done this exact story. What was wrong with MOS again?

The point of my list to illustrate people like yourself and others putting the subjective over the objective. You and others personally didn't like something and therefore seek to invalidate the entire experience. 





> Uh, the Reeves Superman is still held up to this day as the definitive Superman. And while Im not saying Superman should never change, the DCEU Superman was such a polar opposite to an iteration that made an iconic character even more iconic that if didnt go over well with fans. If Superman is anything, he is a symbol of hope and someone who wants to be the hero. DCEU Superman is someone who begrudgingly is the hero.


And the most recent rendition of the Reeves version was Superman Returns back in 2006. Nobody cared then, and I promise you, nobody would care now. They only champion it because it's familiar. Remember, the Reeve Superman inspired nobody in his films. And this wasn't and still isn't a problem. While Snyderman inspired Pete Ross, Lois Lane, Colonel Hardy, General Swanwick, Bruce Wayne and brought WW out of retirement. And Snyderman gets no credit for it. Except from people like me. 





> Again, critical and fan backlash would disagree with that. Heck, even the apparent audience fatigue of bad DVEU movies would serve as counter evidence to your point. Its not often that a blockbuster CBM is dethroned in its second week by a Pixar film.


People vote with their wallets. Critic and supposed fan backlash (mainly by people on the internet), doesn't wash. They are a loud vocal minority. WB bent the knee and acquiesed to this vocal minority's demands and they still are not on their side. The financial success of the DCEU can't be denied. In 4 movies, they've grossed over $3 billion dollars and won an Academy Award. They were doing something right. 

2017, is like 2016. Crowded as f*ck. With blockbusters cannibalizing each other. You act as if Pixar isn't a competitor when it comes to creating money making movies.





> So, on the one hand we have a film that brought together the Holy Trinity if DC comics, all pop culture icons since the 40s for the very first time ever, and on the other we have a movie that brought together several characters whod been together for several films already, Spider-Man and BP being the only new additions and BP, while iconic, not having as much recognition as Wonder Woman or Superman or Batman. Id say its more than a fair comparison.


You have the pop culture icons of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman squaring off against the cultural phenomon that is the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

At the time, 2 DCEU films vs 13 MCU films.

No shame in admitting someone else has a better ground to compete than you do. Hell, Star Trek predates Star Wars by 11 years. However, Trek has never found the same success at any level as Star Wars.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> There's a difference between " walking back"  and reversion to a previous version because it gives the older generations the warm fuzzys of nostalgia.
> 
> Anf the reason why CW did a billion was because it was for all intents and purposes, Avengers 2.5. If Captain America on his own caught the hearts and minds of the world, Winter Soldier ( a far superior movie to CW and truly a Captain America movie) would have done a billion. 
> 
> Plus, again, Captain America is mostly fresh and new to the audience, as well as most of Marvel's icons , which means they have less baggage of expectations and aren't perceived as the same old same old.
> 
> Does that mean Snyder's approach caught on? Obviously not, but the answer is not reverting to the Donner version or a like version for the sake of nostalgia . I guarantee you, if the next Superman film ends up highly in the vein of Donner, or ends up slavish to that version, it'll gross less than MOS. I mean, why would you go to the theater to watch a knock off when you could go and just rent or stream the Donner films?
> 
> With a character like Superman and to a lesser extent Batman, you HAVE to reinvent the wheel a little if you are going to get people to take notice. You can't keep the character stuck in the past preserved in Amber. Does that mean Snyder's way was the only way? Not at all. There is a balance to be found. Doesn't mean we need to revert to what worked twice in 1978 and 1980  for the sake of it. The character has to continue to evolve. Otherwise in a generation or two, no one will care at all except us aging fan boys.


Well, Winter Soldier did gross over 700 million. Which is not that far off from BvS (which was supposed to be like JL 0.5). So, they’re definitely doing something right.

Also, I disagree that Marvel’s icons are relatively new to the general audience and therefore don’t carry baggage. Thor and the GotG might be less we’ll known, but Spider-Man, Hulk, and even Captain America have been in the public eye for decades. Not to mention of course the X-Men and Fantastic Four. So, people do have preconceptions about how these guys should be portrayed. Marvel just hadn’t been that successful bringing them to the big screen until recently (something DC actually had over them in the 80s and 90s) but they weres still rampant on TV.

Also I’m not saying we should do a carbon copy of the Donner Superman. But yes, something more like it or more like the classic Superman that most people know and love would probably be more well received. I can appreciate that Snyder was trying to go the whole Jesus allegory route with Superman but Clark should never be the begrudging hero who wished he didn’t HAVE to be Superman. He should always be the man who would rather it be him than anyone else.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Great plot? MOS was a hero's journey and alien invasion film. In recent memory, several MCU, Star Trek and Transformers movies have done this exact story. What was wrong with MOS again?


The difference being that the MCU films and Star Trek did those plot lines well. MoS was choppy and obviously rushed. Therefore, there's little if any opportunity to connect with the characters. That's what was wrong with it.




> And the most recent rendition of the Reeves version was Superman Returns back in 2006. Nobody cared then, and I promise you, nobody would care now. They only champion it because it's familiar. Remember, the Reeve Superman inspired nobody in his films. And this wasn't and still isn't a problem. While Snyderman inspired Pete Ross, Lois Lane, Colonel Hardy, General Swanwick, Bruce Wayne and brought WW out of retirement. And Snyderman gets no credit for it. Except from people like me.


Uh, he inspired Pete Ross in what way, exactly? We only see him for two minutes and that's to have Lois find out Clark's identity and if anything, it looks more like Pete has PTSD from the situation. Also, he inspires Batman to want to kill him mostly, all of which flips on a dime when Bruce realizes...that their moms share the same name.

Yeah, not the best written scene out there.

Also, by your definition of inspire, Donner's Superman inspired Lois, Lana (who sought to better her life because of Clark), and pretty much everyone to ever come into contact with him.




> People vote with their wallets. Critic and supposed fan backlash (mainly by people on the internet), doesn't wash. They are a loud vocal minority. WB bent the knee and acquiesed to this vocal minority's demands and they still are not on their side. The financial success of the DCEU can't be denied. In 4 movies, they've grossed over $3 billion dollars and won an Academy Award. They were doing something right.


Yeah, people have started to vote with their wallets, which is why JL is underperforming majorly right now. Now that Wonder Woman has shown them that DC can make good movies, its as if people are now holding DC to a higher standard. Imagine that. The brand damage done by movies like BvS is undeniable at this point.

Also:

(1) Marvel was able to gross over 3 billion from 3 movies alone and

(2) The Oscar that Suicide Squad won was for makeup artistry. Its not like it won Best Picture. Let's not twist facts here.




> 2017, is like 2016. Crowded as f*ck. With blockbusters cannibalizing each other. You act as if Pixar isn't a competitor when it comes to creating money making movies.


In a time when CBMs are king at the box office, the only other competition should be Thor: Ragnorok.




> You have the pop culture icons of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman squaring off against the cultural phenomon that is the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
> 
> At the time, 2 DCEU films vs 13 MCU films.
> 
> No shame in admitting someone else has a better ground to compete than you do. Hell, Star Trek predates Star Wars by 11 years. However, Trek has never found the same success at any level as Star Wars.


Yeah, and if DC were making good films other than Wonder Woman, then they'd be on a completely fair competing ground.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It getting retconned to be smaller in later movies doesn't count.


It wasnt retconned though. If you check out the ending scene to MoS (particularly from the point where he catches Lois, until the point where he & Zod crash into the train station or whatever), the crater left from the attack is actually quite small in diameter compared to the sprawling horizon of Metropolis. Its easy to get caught up in the action of the characters, because they draw your eyes to them, but look all around at the background. Metropolis was not destroyed, but a section of downtown was. 

Nobody is saying their werent a lot of deaths; Memorial Park in BvS & JL show plaques with the names of the dead, and just like the Vietnam Memorial, the names are many.  It was certainly a tragedy, but the dead were honored and a statue built for the guy who kept the entire city, as well as the world, from joining that list of names. If you dont like the movie, thats totally fair. But I think when people argue the pros and cons of these things, we should argue what was actually on screen, and not make things up for the sake of argument.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> People vote with their wallets. Critic and supposed fan backlash (mainly by people on the internet), doesn't wash. They are a loud vocal minority. WB bent the knee and acquiesed to this vocal minority's demands and they still are not on their side. The financial success of the DCEU can't be denied. In 4 movies, they've grossed over $3 billion dollars and won an Academy Award. They were doing something right.


People voted with their wallets and it showed with the difference between BvS and JL's opening weekend.  I liked MOS and BvS was ok... but the true extreme, vocal minority are the fans who insist that Snyder is a great director.  They defend and defend because they feel like they have to.  It wouldn't be necessary if they knew that the majority of people disagreed.  It has become like an obese 300 lb person under 6 ft tall screaming, "I'm skinny.  It doesn't matter what you say.  I'm skinny!"  People paid to see BvS opening weekend and were disappointed and it showed in the historical drop offs that it had the following weeks.  The general public knew that JL was directed by the same person as BvS.  They weren't going to pay to see it opening weekend if at all in theaters... the people who did see JL liked it.  However the damage was done in Spring 2016.  No, people didn't see JL out of protest for Snyder.  Oddly enough many who did see it, liked it and thought it was better than BvS.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Anybody know how how much Justice League has to make for it to make money? I heard it was 600 million and at least judging by Box office Mojo it made its production budget back.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Anybody know how how much Justice League has to make for it to make money? I heard it was 600 million and at least judging by Box office Mojo it made its production budget back.


I've read anywhere between $650-700 million,

----------


## Korath

> People voted with their wallets and it showed with the difference between BvS and JL's opening weekend.  I liked MOS and BvS was ok... but the true extreme, vocal minority are the fans who insist that Snyder is a great director.  They defend and defend because they feel like they have to.  It wouldn't be necessary if they knew that the majority of people disagreed.  It has become like an obese 300 lb person under 6 ft tall screaming, "I'm skinny.  It doesn't matter what you say.  I'm skinny!"  People paid to see BvS opening weekend and were disappointed and it showed in the historical drop offs that it had the following weeks.  The general public knew that JL was directed by the same person as BvS.  They weren't going to pay to see it opening weekend if at all in theaters... the people who did see JL liked it.  However the damage was done in Spring 2016.  No, people didn't see JL out of protest for Snyder.  Oddly enough many who did see it, liked it and thought it was better than BvS.


No, more like people who likes quality trying to defend it while the vast majority of viewers apparently favor average to mediocre movies.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> No, more like people who likes quality trying to defend it while the vast majority of viewers apparently favor average to mediocre movies.


Or perhaps, the vast majority of viewers have different opinions than you on what constitutes a quality movie?

----------


## Bossace

It sure if anyone has seen this but it seems paramount did not help at all with the moustache:

https://www.avclub.com/paramount-was...lls-1820801632

Though that would have not fixed the entire movie it would have been one less problem


Also after watching Crisis on Earth X I had tons of fun, I’m sad that I enjoyed it more than JL but I still love me some DC heroes. I think DC tv will always have my heart through all the seasons of smallville to all the animated tv shows and movies. 

And I personally felt between the CW crossover and the new Avengers Trailer that just came out just kinda smashed JL like superman smashed the league upon resurrection. The cgi is certainly better by far. If anything this makes me sadder for the JL movie we should have gotten and I wish and hope somewhere a Snyder version exists even if 3 and a half hours like the watchmen ultimate cut you better believe I’d watch it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I think thats widely known, and honestly its not Paramount's problem.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> No, more like people who likes quality trying to defend it while the vast majority of viewers apparently favor average to mediocre movies.


The reality is that extremists on both sides of an unscientific argument are likely wrong.  Extremists rarely are right because they can't see anything wrong in what they say or think.  The answer is usually somewhere in between.  The vocal minority extremists feel the need to defend out of insecurity and will resort to back handed insults when they have nothing else.  The "everyone is wrong. I am right" mentality is always a sign of this.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> He DIDN'T blame Clark. He told him to be more careful in the future. That's. It.


He did and even said maybe when being asked about should Clark let them die or not, that's very very low.





> Clark did save innocent kids, so he's a decent person. Jonathan Kent didn't tell him not to save innocent kids, so he's a decent person as well.


 Clark Kent at 13: I just wanted to help.

Jonathan Kent: I know you did, but we talked about this. Right? Right? We talked about this! You have...!

[calms himself]

Jonathan Kent: Clark, you have to keep this side of yourself a secret.

Clark Kent at 13: What was I supposed to do? Just let them die?

Jonathan Kent: *Maybe*; but there's more at stake here than our lives or the lives of those around us. When the world... When the world finds out what you can do, it's gonna change everything; our... our beliefs, our notions of what it means to be human... everything. You saw how Pete's mom reacted, right? She was scared, Clark. 

Bad bad here




> Try saying "NO" when it's your son under threat of being taken away from you and murdered. It's easy to be judgmental when you haven't been where the other character has been. You may very well find yourself feeling a little selfish for a hot minute or two.
> 
> Bottom line? He didn't say not to help people. He said "Be careful." Those are the facts, no matter how badly you want to twist them.


Of course I would say NO, I don't want my son to live with the cost of a bus of innocent kids' lives. 

He did, see the quote above, he obviously wasn't happy about Clark saving the kids.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It also exists outside of the DC universe canon. Batman Beyond and Injustice are also geared towards mainstream audiences as well. An adaptation does not have to follow the comics 1:1


It's still mainstream.

DCEU is not a project towards BB or Injustice, it's about building up the Justice League. It requires much higher number to buy tickets than these two as well.

It doesn't have to, but you gotta be really really careful if you are working on someone like someone so well known like Superman and we saw the backfire.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

*sigh*

That hurt.

Watching that Infinity War trailer....and then looking back at JL....I briefly thought that WB/DC should just give up, lol.

Just visually, IW just backhands the crap out of JL. The CGI, and mo-cap, on Thanos....that's what taking your time looks like WB. 

I really hope Wan is using this next year wisely, and making sure that Aquaman is Avatar on LSD.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think thats widely known, and honestly its not Paramount's problem.


Yeah, it's WB's fault for the reshoots.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> *sigh*
> 
> That hurt.
> 
> Watching that Infinity War trailer....and then looking back at JL....I briefly thought that WB/DC should just give up, lol.
> 
> Just visually, IW just backhands the crap out of JL. The CGI, and mo-cap, on Thanos....that's what taking your time looks like WB. 
> 
> I really hope Wan is using this next year wisely, and making sure that Aquaman is Avatar on LSD.


Yeah, same. 

Throughout the whole thing I was just thinking, this is the culmination of Feige's vision for the marvel U, executed by the Russos and Co, with a strong stakeholder who is confident in that vision.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah, same. 
> 
> Throughout the whole thing I was just thinking, this is the culmination of Feige's vision for the marvel U, executed by the Russos and Co, with a strong stakeholder who is confident in that vision.


Yup. Clear vision, and not tripping over themselves (at least if you ignore IM2, IM3, and the Thor stuff).

----------


## Slowpokeking

> *sigh*
> 
> That hurt.
> 
> Watching that Infinity War trailer....and then looking back at JL....I briefly thought that WB/DC should just give up, lol.
> 
> Just visually, IW just backhands the crap out of JL. The CGI, and mo-cap, on Thanos....that's what taking your time looks like WB. 
> 
> I really hope Wan is using this next year wisely, and making sure that Aquaman is Avatar on LSD.


NEVER!

DC got so many great stuff to use, they just need to learn from their lesson and make the future plan better.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Yup. Clear vision, and not tripping over themselves (at least if you ignore IM2, IM3, and the Thor stuff).


That's ignoring SIX movies...one more than the entire DCEU's output to date.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Korath

I don't know what Wan did before, so I'm cautiously optimistic for Aquaman, but I hope that an Extended or Snyder cut version of JL will be out by then, if only to have more scenes for Atlantis and Aquaman to have a foundation, like WW had in BvS which was then used in Wonder Woman solo. As for IW, i'm not even sure that I'll go watch it. At that point, I've zero interest left for the MCU and fail to believe in any of the dramatic beat (that the team could actually lose). It just doesn't work on me anymore.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yup. Clear vision, and not tripping over themselves (at least if you ignore IM2, IM3, and the Thor stuff).


Mere bumps in the road, and the important thing is that even through the missteps, you know Fiege was like "Okay, this is your movie, but I need (insert character) to be (insert status quo) by the time you are finished".

He's just a damn good editor who happens to work with movies instead of comics.




> I don't know what Wan did before, so I'm cautiously optimistic for Aquaman, but I hope that an Extended or Snyder cut version of JL will be out by then, if only to have more scenes for Atlantis and Aquaman to have a foundation, like WW had in BvS which was then used in Wonder Woman solo. As for IW, i'm not even sure that I'll go watch it. At that point, I've zero interest left for the MCU and fail to believe in any of the dramatic beat (that the team could actually lose). It just doesn't work on me anymore.


When watching Justice League did you at any point actually think they would lose? I don't totally disregard the "stakes" criticism because the MCU is a bit disnified in a way that the DCEU is not, but no cape movie has ever made me think the hero would actually lose.

----------


## Robotman

> *sigh*
> 
> That hurt.
> 
> Watching that Infinity War trailer....and then looking back at JL....I briefly thought that WB/DC should just give up, lol.
> 
> Just visually, IW just backhands the crap out of JL. The CGI, and mo-cap, on Thanos....that's what taking your time looks like WB. 
> 
> I really hope Wan is using this next year wisely, and making sure that Aquaman is Avatar on LSD.


I seriously wasnt that impressed with the trailer. But obviously I cant say that when people ask me because all of my friends know I love DC and would think I was biased. The trailer just showed us who is in the movie, it didnt actually show any cool visuals. I guess if youre super invested in the Marvel cinematic universe its a thrill to see everyone in the same movie. 

I agree with you that Thanos cgi looked great. Lightyears better than anything we saw in Justice League. But I really think he looks kinda silly without the helmet. 

Sadly WB screwed up with Darkseid. They had Steppenwolf mention him once and that was it. Thanos is about to become as well known of a movie villain as Darth Vader. Dont think well ever see Darkseid on the big screen.

----------


## Bossace

> I seriously wasn’t that impressed with the trailer. But obviously I can’t say that when people ask me because all of my friends know I love DC and would think I was biased. The trailer just showed us who is in the movie, it didn’t actually show any cool visuals. I guess if you’re super invested in the Marvel cinematic universe it’s a thrill to see everyone in the same movie. 
> 
> I agree with you that Thanos’ cgi looked great. Lightyears better than anything we saw in Justice League. But I really think he looks kinda silly without the helmet. 
> 
> Sadly WB screwed up with Darkseid. They had Steppenwolf mention him once and that was it. Thanos is about to become as well known of a movie villain as Darth Vader. Don’t think we’ll ever see Darkseid on the big screen.


Yea the way I see it no way they can do darkseid ever now without being even more compared to marvel even though he’s been around longer .

----------


## Johnny

> *sigh*
> 
> That hurt.
> 
> Watching that Infinity War trailer....and then looking back at JL....I briefly thought that WB/DC should just give up, lol.
> 
> Just visually, IW just backhands the crap out of JL. The CGI, and mo-cap, on Thanos....that's what taking your time looks like WB. 
> 
> I really hope Wan is using this next year wisely, and making sure that Aquaman is Avatar on LSD.


I wouldn't say I'm "hurt" per se, you just have one studio that mostly knows what it's doing vs another one that mostly doesn't. In a perfect world we would have two successful acclaimed movie franchises going at it, alas that just isn't the case. The MCU has its fair share of problems, the positives just happen to outweigh the negatives, as the public clearly seems to agree, while with WB unfortunately it's the opposite. I had no regrets about the DCEU while I was watching the Infinity War trailer, because it's just a different situation. As you said, Marvel took their time and had a clear vision, while WB instead, decided to rush after them. They will hopefully learn from that mistake and have a better planning now. One can only hope.

By the way, am I the only one who's tired of waiting for the Soul Stone? Where the hell is that damn thing.

----------


## Angelo2113

Avengers: Infinity War is going to be the culmination of Marvel Cinematic Universe's successful (sub)brand building. As soon as a character is brought on screen, they have instant cinematic history with the audience.

There's a lot of accomplishments that Warner Bros. can learn from Disney/Marvel Studios but sadly, as we've seen with Justice League, Warner Bros. hasn't learned from their mistakes yet. Justice League had unbelievably enjoyable moments but was proof that they've lost all faith in Snyder's vision of Superman and his birth of the DC Extended Universe. To me, that was quite damaging to what came before because that is what I was truly invested in. While they were certainly divisive with the audiences, they were chapters to an overarching story that a director should have been able to finish with Justice League.

Warner Bros. is at the point where Marvel Studios was with Avengers which was 6 years before Avengers: Infinity War. (To the exact date, if anybody else has noticed.) They need to reevaluate what makes DC Comics great and different from Marvel. Wonder Woman was a great start to that and put them 1 step towards that achievement but the corporate intrusion of Justice League put them 2 steps backwards. (For me, personally.)

Edited:


> When watching Justice League did you at any point actually think they would lose? I don't totally disregard the "stakes" criticism because the MCU is a bit disnified in a way that the DCEU is not, *but no cape movie has ever made me think the hero would actually lose.*


I've never read the comic books before the movie but Watchmen certainly caught me off guard, haha.

----------


## golgi

If WB builds the Legion of Doom across movies, that would be sweet.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah, same. 
> 
> Throughout the whole thing I was just thinking, this is the culmination of Feige's vision for the marvel U, executed by the Russos and Co, with a strong stakeholder who is confident in that vision.


I really liked JL for its parts but not necessarily the sum whole.  That trailer looked like a movie that isn't going to make JL look bad.  I'm more of a DC guy than a Marvel guy but damn.  DC really is playing catch up.  Loot at Thanos compared to Steppenwolf.  Notice how the CG still looks good in the light whereas most DC movies have been in dimmed light to strengthen weaker CG.

----------


## Clark_Kent

IW looks good, but they’re once again pushing the idea of “it’ll be serious this time!” with the trailer...and yeah, I’m not falling for that again lol 

The CG on Zoidberg was indeed very good. Eh, I mean Thanos. Without the helmet, I got confused.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Edited for spoilers.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Edited for...reasons. I dunno lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

Yep. Just watch the Infinity War trailer, and I'm simultaneously excited and depressed right now. I'm a much bigger DC fan than a Marvel fan, and it just sickens me that WB won't LET their cinematic universe achieve this level of awesomeness. 

I'm so bitter right now, I almost want to boycott IW out of sheer spite. 

(I won't. Don't worry.)

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yea the way I see it no way they can do darkseid ever now without being even more compared to marvel even though hes been around longer .


Well, they still can. 

Aspects of Darkseid:
- the exchange of children
- said children, Orion and Scott
- Highfather
- the concept of a war between "heaven and hell"
- Apokolips and New Genesis are outside of time, and the multiverse
- the Omega Sanction
- him killing the old gods, and taking their power
- the Furies
- Granny Goodness
- the Anti-Life equation
- the Black Racer
- Grail 

These are all things that make Darkseid different, from Thanos. Not just that tho, as you've gotta make the New Gods both epic on a biblical scale, but also very psychological. Darkseid, Orion, Scott, Barda, Black Racer, and GG are great ways to touch on the psychological implications that Darkseid has on people.

By the time Darkseid faces the league, it should feel like the Rapture on crack, with his hands clasped behind his back, and there's no hope of survival.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Well, they still can. 
> 
> Aspects of Darkseid:
> - the exchange of children
> - said children, Orion and Scott
> - Highfather
> - the concept of a war between "heaven and hell"
> - Apokolips and New Genesis are outside of time, and the multiverse
> - the Omega Sanction
> ...


Yeah, Darkseid needs to be a long-game kind of thing. Play up the fact that he can corrupt people just by EXISTING in the DCU. Don't have him swagger through a Boom Tube and start wrecking crap just for kicks. Play up his minions and his vast resources. Thanos looks like he's just going around wrecking stuff and collecting Infinity Gems, with minimal support from anyone else other than his handful of minions. Darkseid? He has ARMIES. He has super weapons. He has minions who can attack the world on a physical, mental, and spiritual level. 

Definitely agree with your last sentence. By the time Darkseid finally shows up in full, it should feel like he's already won. Do that, and there won't be ANY trouble differentiating him from Thanos.

----------


## Doctor Know

> The difference being that the MCU films and Star Trek did those plot lines well. MoS was choppy and obviously rushed. Therefore, there's little if any opportunity to connect with the characters. That's what was wrong with it.


The plot of MOS was never the issue. People took issue with the execution and the delivery. Not to mention certain critics, like Devin Faraci, admitting he changed his positive review of MOS to negative, once he saw the trend going negative. Just to bandwagon and drive traffic to his website. 

If MOS had a positive rating, would that change your opinion about the movie? Would you be more receptive to it's merits? Because other people asserted it was good. Like Spider-Man 3, Indiana Jones 4, Quantum of Solace, The Hobbit Trilogy and the Star Wars Prequels. 




> Uh, he inspired Pete Ross in what way, exactly? We only see him for two minutes and that's to have Lois find out Clark's identity and if anything, it looks more like Pete has PTSD from the situation. Also, he inspires Batman to want to kill him mostly, all of which flips on a dime when Bruce realizes...that their moms share the same name.
> 
> 
> Yeah, not the best written scene out there.


Remember how Pete Ross was a bully, and then Clark saved him and that bus full of children. And later in MOS, we had this scene? 

Pete changed, for the better. Thanks to Clark.




Batman admitted he was wrong and failed Superman at the end of the movie. Forming the JL and reviving Superman was his contribution to Supes' memory and correcting his mistake. The world needs Superman. The world needs Hope. 




> Also, by your definition of inspire, Donner's Superman inspired Lois, Lana (who sought to better her life because of Clark), and pretty much everyone to ever come into contact with him.


How is Kidder Lois inspired? She was the same throughout both movies Donner directed. Lana was in the Lester movie. So it wouldn't count toward Donner. Since, everybody makes like Superman 3 and 4 don't exist. Superman I and II is where everyone's nostalgia googles are. 





> Yeah, people have started to vote with their wallets, which is why JL is underperforming majorly right now. Now that Wonder Woman has shown them that DC can make good movies, its as if people are now holding DC to a higher standard. Imagine that. The brand damage done by movies like BvS is undeniable at this point.


If that was true, why didn't people jump ship from DCEU after BVS? Which would've have seen the most impact on Suicide Squad. SS which came in spitting distance of BvS's domestic gross. Or WW, which was a big box office success. WW was even pushed more in all the JL lead up marketing. Perhaps it's just box office fatigue and or blockbusters cannibalizing one another. Releasing JL 10 days after Thor 3, was liking a big mistake. Other sure fire success this year like Kingsman 2, War For the Planet of the Apes and Transformers 5 all underperformed at the BO as well. Release dates are everything. 




> Also:
> 
> (1) Marvel was able to gross over 3 billion from 3 movies alone and...


Context is important here. I'm referring to order of release. Not total dollars. If I were, I'd have included the last two Nolan Batman films. Which grossed 1 billion each. 

The first 4  Marvel movies were 
Iron Man - $585,174,222	 
The Incredible Hulk - $263,427,551	
Iron Man 2 - $623,933,331	 
Thor - $449,326,618	 

Total gross = 1,921,861,722 

Add in Cap 1 - $370,569,774	
Avengers 1 - $1,518,812,988	

And you see it took 6 MCU movies to get to where the DC films got to in 4.   




> (2) The Oscar that Suicide Squad won was for makeup artistry. Its not like it won Best Picture. Let's not twist facts here.


An Academy Award is an Academy Award. The make-up, prosthetics and tattoos the vocal minority of fans hated about SS, won it an award. Who should we listen to?





> In a time when CBMs are king at the box office, the only other competition should be Thor: Ragnorok.
> 
> Yeah, and if DC were making good films other than Wonder Woman, then they'd be on a completely fair competing ground.


Cannibalizing, man. They can't all be winners. Opening night numbers for JL were down, recall. So, I think the audience were just tapped out, finanically. Tickets aren't cheap and the next big blockbuster after JL is Star Wars.

----------


## Flash Gordon

The idea that "critics don't like dark comic book flicks" doesn't hold any water. Captain America: The Civil War boiled down to a literal tragedy at the climax. It gets DARK, and not superfically dark.

I'm not saying that, that makes it a better story- just that there are lots of dark comic book joints.

----------


## ekrolo2

> BvS and JL are Superman movies in the sense that it's his presence ( in BvS,) and lack thereof ( JL) that drives the narrative and the actions of our other main characters. However, Supes himself has little shown character growth aside from dialogue implying things, but we don't see tangible proof. 
> 
> I've said it before, BvS plays like a grand finale to a trilogy, but we never got to see the middle chapter. If we had just gotten an MOS 2 in between MOS and BvS, I think a lot of the issues with the DCEU's building, especially as far as Supes is concerned, would have been solved. They could have used the film to highlight the good side of being Superman in places. BvS then could have shown the flip side of it. 
> 
> Of course you'd still have the same suspects screaming at the top of their lungs " Not muh Superman!" , But I think the darker tone of BvS would have gone over better with audiences had it been shown in a proper Superman sequel before hand that at his core Superman was still the same guy you grew up with, just in a more realistic World where his actions have consequences, good and bad. All we saw with MOS and BvS for the most part was the bad. The good was there, but as I said before in another thread , sometimes people need things spelled out. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.


The problem is that you can't make BvS the end of a trilogy with a lighter second act due to the way MoS ends, you don't do that kind of finale to the movie then have a grand Superman adventure only to veer back into the dark stuff. You also can't do a MoS 2 where Superman "fixes" things only for Batman to act like a lone bastard in a world that's more or less gotten used to Superman.

----------


## Angelo2113

> Yeah, Darkseid needs to be a long-game kind of thing. *Play up the fact that he can corrupt people just by EXISTING in the DCU.* Don't have him swagger through a Boom Tube and start wrecking crap just for kicks. Play up his minions and his vast resources. Thanos looks like he's just going around wrecking stuff and collecting Infinity Gems, with minimal support from anyone else other than his handful of minions. Darkseid? He has ARMIES. He has super weapons. He has minions who can attack the world on a physical, mental, and spiritual level. 
> 
> Definitely agree with your last sentence. By the time Darkseid finally shows up in full, it should feel like he's already won. Do that, and there won't be ANY trouble differentiating him from Thanos.


Which has me wondering if Warner Bros. is ever going to touch up on the Knightmare Scene or just ignore it because that had a very strong Darkseid presence without him physically appearing. Did Darkseid/Steppenwolf revive Superman and that's what lead to the events of the Knightmare scene? Is that what lead to Bruce altering that timeline by reviving Superman himself? I feel like there's a big disconnect and I'm curious if that was ever touched upon in Snyder's version.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The idea that "critics don't like dark comic book flicks" doesn't hold any water. Captain America: The Civil War boiled down to a literal tragedy at the climax. It gets DARK, and not superfically dark.
> 
> I'm not saying that, that makes it a better story- just that there are lots of dark comic book joints.


People will remember the tragedy of Tony Stank for years to come!

----------


## Angelo2113

Flashpoint could be Ben Affleck's graceful exit out of portraying Batman in the DC Extended Universe. Thomas Wayne could send a letter with Barry telling Bruce to live a life outside of Batman because that's not the life Thomas or Martha would have wanted for their son. It would be a great opportunity for Warner Bros./DC to put a lot of focus on Dick Grayson as the future and, if they want to, cast somebody younger to portray Ben Affleck's Batman in the past which already has 20 years of history waiting to be explored

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> People will remember the tragedy of Tony Stank for years to come!


Point, but his still stands. Critics don't mind dark movies (logan), they just don't like poorly constructed dark movies.




> Flashpoint could be Ben Affleck's graceful exit out of portraying Batman in the DC Extended Universe. Thomas Wayne could send a letter with Barry telling Bruce to live a life outside of Batman because that's not the life Thomas or Martha would have wanted for their son. It would be a great opportunity for Warner Bros./DC to put a lot of focus on Dick Grayson as the future and, if they want to, cast somebody younger to portray Ben Affleck's Batman in the past which already has 20 years of history waiting to be explored


Had JL been more positively received I would have been all for Flashpoint, but I kind of hope they just do a Flash movie. If they can tell a great Flash story using flashpoint I'm all for it, but I don't want an AU batman/aquaman/wonder woman story featuring flash, and I feel like thats what we would get.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Point, but his still stands. Critics don't mind dark movies (logan), they just don't like poorly constructed dark movies.


Civil War wasnt a dark movie though, is my point. And it certainly wasnt a tragedy.

* Note: Im not commenting on the quality of the film or its storytelling. Just disputing this dark, tragic idea.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Civil War wasn’t a dark movie though, is my point. And it certainly wasn’t a tragedy.
> 
> * Note: I’m not commenting on the quality of the film or its storytelling. Just disputing this “dark, tragic” idea.


The climax did get pretty dark, but aside from that yeah its not a dark or tragic movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I would love to see a faithful adaptation of Flashpoint, but considering they just got the movies to a brighter place I really don’t see them making a movie where Wonder Woman slaughters good guys, among other things. Maybe far down the line, when they are ready to recast absolutely everybody, but I just don’t see it being a good fit now.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I would love to see a faithful adaptation of Flashpoint, but considering they just got the movies to a brighter place I really don’t see them making a movie where Wonder Woman slaughters good guys, among other things. Maybe far down the line, when they are ready to recast absolutely everybody, but I just don’t see it being a good fit now.


I just think its too ambitious right now. Maybe the director/crew would be up to balancing all those pieces while establishing a whole new universe (and getting audiences on board with them being distinct versions of existing characters), but even if they were I feel like it would scare the ever living hell out of WB and they would end up screwing it up somehow.

----------


## Frontier

> Had JL been more positively received I would have been all for Flashpoint, but I kind of hope they just do a Flash movie. If they can tell a great Flash story using flashpoint I'm all for it, but I don't want an AU batman/aquaman/wonder woman story featuring flash, and I feel like thats what we would get.


I really don't want the first Flash solo movie to have to revolve around Flashpoint. It's been done to death at this point and there's so much baggage to deal with  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though if they're really doing a Legion of Doom sub-plot across all the movies, Reverse-Flash being a member would be cool (unless they use Cold).

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Civil War wasn’t a dark movie though, is my point. And it certainly wasn’t a tragedy.
> 
> * Note: I’m not commenting on the quality of the film or its storytelling. Just disputing this “dark, tragic” idea.


It's dealing with the death of a friendship and the downfall of Iron Man. The final scene of the flick is Captain America and Bucky beating the hell out of Iron Man (who is the moral hero) after he just found out that Bucky killed his family. I'd say that's a rough ending. It's a "tragedy" in the classical sense.

It's emotionally heavy and completely sans any CGI-man monster.

In terms of plot, its not the BEST, but the Russo Brothers make quality films. They know how to balance all these characters and tones and concepts in a way that works well.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*How Justice League Became a Frankenstein (Exclusive):* https://www.thewrap.com/justice-leag...-wonder-woman/

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Flashpoint could be Ben Affleck's graceful exit out of portraying Batman in the DC Extended Universe. Thomas Wayne could send a letter with Barry telling Bruce to live a life outside of Batman because that's not the life Thomas or Martha would have wanted for their son. It would be a great opportunity for Warner Bros./DC to put a lot of focus on Dick Grayson as the future and, if they want to, cast somebody younger to portray Ben Affleck's Batman in the past which already has 20 years of history waiting to be explored


I 100% doubt that we'll see Ben Affleck in another Batman flick. If he wants out, and they actually end up making another one of these- just recast Bruce Wayne/Batman. There's honestly no need for any "in story" reason.

I love Affleck, as a filmmaker and as an actor, but they get another Batman.

I'd love to see Matt Reeves do some solo Batman films that totally toss out the aesthetic of Batman's world in BvS/JL, and do something modern and unique.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> *How ‘Justice League’ Became a ‘Frankenstein’ (Exclusive):* https://www.thewrap.com/justice-leag...-wonder-woman/


I've been saying similar for a while now.  WB wanted to remove Snyder but kept him to keep the release date.  HUGE mistake.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It occurs to me that I never actually posted my full thoughts on JL here (shame on me!). For anyone that’s interested, here’s my thoughts (warning, kinda long post incoming):
> 
> I’ve seen the film 3 times so far, with a 4th trip planned this weekend and a 5th (probably final) viewing the week after. 
> 
> I don’t watch movies I hate multiple times, so it’s pretty obvious I enjoyed this one. I give it a solid 8/10, with my quibbles being fairly minor. My thoughts (good & bad mixed together here. A long post, but stick with me! It’s worth it): 
> 
> • SUPERMAN!!! He was totally awesome in this. I know, I know, he’s acting differently and is more chatty than before, but let’s face it - he tossed Steppenwolf around like a ragdoll (“This guy still bothering you?”). The League loses this fight if not for him (well, duh, otherwise they wouldn’t have tried bringing him back). Here’s my take: I’m 100% A-OK with his new attitude, and with his newfound desire to be chatty. And it still fits in with what Snyder was doing all along: Kal died in the last movie, and now he has a second chance at life. Gone are the insecurities, gone are the doubts - he will help people now no matter what they say about him, he’s past worrying about all that now. He has returned from death, and his world was waiting for him. The man’s happy to be alive, so let him be I say! 
> 
> •I’ve heard complaints that Superman is “too powerful” in this movie compared to his power levels in MoS & BvS...but in the comics, he came back more powerful there as well. I was happy with him. 
> ...


I know everyone has probably seen the movie already but there's a full spoiler thread that you should probably copy and paste this into instead.

----------


## Angelo2113

So apparently Warner Bros. wanted to fire Snyder after Batman v. Superman and take him off of Justice League but decided against it since they were too far into production.

Sounds awfully familiar but DC didn't get the luck with Whedon that Marvel had

Also means we will more than likely not be receiving any sort of Snyder version if Warner Bros. is ending their connection with him.

My apologies, I didn't notice the post earlier.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I know everyone has probably seen the movie already but there's a full spoiler thread that you should probably copy and paste this into instead.


You know, you’re probably right. I’ll edit my post in a minute. My bad. 

Too much bouncing around the boards today, I forget the “no spoiler” in the title, sorry about that.


Edit: The posts have been deleted.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> The plot of MOS was never the issue. *People took issue with the execution and the delivery*. Not to mention certain critics, like Devin Faraci, admitting he changed his positive review of MOS to negative, once he saw the trend going negative. Just to bandwagon and drive traffic to his website.


Uh, yeah, which severely impinged on the plot. When you have a choppy execution, the plot of a movie suffers.




> Remember how Pete Ross was a bully, and then Clark saved him and that bus full of children. And later in MOS, we had this scene? 
> 
> Pete changed, for the better. Thanks to Clark.


One scene is hardly the stunning character development you want it to be. You're acting as if Pete then dedicated his life to saving stray puppies. He was a waiter. The truth is we hardly see anything of Pete and the actors who play him have pretty much no dialogue. Maybe if the movie slowed down, showed us more scenes with Pete, we'd have a better sense of the journey his character took, but that simply wasn't the case.




> Batman admitted he was wrong and failed Superman at the end of the movie. Forming the JL and reviving Superman was his contribution to Supes' memory and correcting his mistake. The world needs Superman. The world needs Hope.


And nothing inspires hope...like snapping someone's neck and then crying about it in the middle of a crowded train station.

Also, its still the case that Bruce apparently changes his entire mind about Superman simply because he finds out that his mom and Clark's mom are both named Martha. That's such a stunning development.




> How is Kidder Lois inspired? She was the same throughout both movies Donner directed. Lana was in the Lester movie. So it wouldn't count toward Donner. Since, everybody makes like Superman 3 and 4 don't exist. Superman I and II is where everyone's nostalgia googles are.


Except Superman 3 does exist. So, you can't discount it. Simple fact: Lana existed in the Donner Superman universe and was inspired by Clark to better her life.

And how about all of the citizens who plead to Superman to save them from Zod in II. The President of the United States himself calls out to Superman asking for his help and is defiant in the face of Zod, basically telling him that Superman will stop him. That's called inspiring hope and faith in people.

Meanwhile, in BvS, someone spray-paints "False God" on his statue. And showing some people doubting Superman is all fine. However, something like that needs to be contrasted with Superman actually seeming happy to and trying his best to help people. Even when people do show faith in Superman in BvS, he pretty much never smiles or even seems at all committed to helping them. He's always brooding.




> If that was true, why didn't people jump ship from DCEU after BVS? Which would've have seen the most impact on Suicide Squad. SS which came in spitting distance of BvS's domestic gross. Or WW, which was a big box office success. WW was even pushed more in all the JL lead up marketing. Perhaps it's just box office fatigue and or blockbusters cannibalizing one another. Releasing JL 10 days after Thor 3, was liking a big mistake. Other sure fire success this year like Kingsman 2, War For the Planet of the Apes and Transformers 5 all underperformed at the BO as well. Release dates are everything.


As someone else pointed out, BvS faced historic drop offs after its opening weekend. So people kind of did vote with their wallets. If it had actually been a good movie, it probably would have made over a billion easy. Again, we're talking about the first ever team up of the Trinity of DC Comics on screen. The fact that it didn't make a billion in this golden age of superhero films, when they're at the height of popularity, is kind of proof enough that it was a failure.

Also, SS and WW had different directors helming those projects, so people likely thought they'd be different. It was only the latter they were right about, though. And as an aside (which actually ties into this point), you know that Wonder Woman is actually the highest grossing DCEU film domestically, right? That's the difference between good word of mouth vs. bad word of mouth.




> Context is important here. I'm referring to order of release. Not total dollars. If I were, I'd have included the last two Nolan Batman films. Which grossed 1 billion each. 
> 
> The first 4  Marvel movies were 
> Iron Man - $585,174,222	 
> The Incredible Hulk - $263,427,551	
> Iron Man 2 - $623,933,331	 
> Thor - $449,326,618	 
> 
> Total gross = 1,921,861,722 
> ...


Here's all the context you need.

Avengers opening weekend - $207,438,708
Justice League opening weekend - $93,842,239

The fact that the debut of DC's flagship superhero team made less than half of what Avengers made and will likely not come anywhere close to its total haul is an embarrassment and pretty much inexcusable.




> An Academy Award is an Academy Award. The make-up, prosthetics and tattoos the vocal minority of fans hated about SS, won it an award. Who should we listen to?


No, that's not true at all. In your own words: context matters. Was SS nominated for Best Picture? No. Best Editing? No. Any awards that reflect the quality of the story presented? No. And my guess is that it didn't come close to being nominated for any of those awards. The makeup being good in no way means that the movie *itself* was good. And what's truly ironic about that is that that movie was chocked full of Oscar-winning and Oscar-nominated talent. Viola Davis, Jared Leto, Will Smith, Ben Affleck, and even Common are all people who've either won or been nominated for Academy Awards.

Also, the makeup and prosthetics are very low on the list of things people didn't like about SS. Most people are still in shock that editing of the film was handed over to a firm mostly known for editing *trailers.*




> Cannibalizing, man. They can't all be winners. Opening night numbers for JL were down, recall. So, I think the audience were just tapped out, finanically. Tickets aren't cheap and the next big blockbuster after JL is Star Wars.


They were tapped out, alright. Tapped out because of the DCEU movies being so bad, with Wonder Woman as the only exception. People need to stop trying to invent some other explanation. Again, this isn't some no-name character we're talking about here. This is the Justice League, a team that's been in the public consciousness for decades. The flagship team of the DC Comics universe. The fact that Thor: Ragnorok grossed so much more on its opening night, when 10 years ago, nobody on the street would likely have been able to tell you who Thor even was, is just a testament to how Marvel has built up good will, while DC has built up the opposite.

So, the answer is not cannibalizing. Its that Justice League was just a bad movie and people now have a bad perception of the DCEU. Literally all of my friends had decided that they're boycotting DC movies months ago.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> You know, you’re probably right. I’ll edit my post in a minute. My bad. 
> 
> Too much bouncing around the boards today, I forget the “no spoiler” in the title, sorry about that.
> 
> 
> Edit: The posts have been deleted.


It's super easy to forget, no worries.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Well, they still can. 
> 
> Aspects of Darkseid:
> - the exchange of children
> - said children, Orion and Scott
> - Highfather
> - the concept of a war between "heaven and hell"
> - Apokolips and New Genesis are outside of time, and the multiverse
> - the Omega Sanction
> ...


Not really, Darkseid showed up in the beginning of N52 and the animated movie and there wasn't too much problem.

Even without him, I could pick many big names that could be a bigger villain for JL than Steppenwolf.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Not really, Darkseid showed up in the beginning of N52 and the animated series and there wasn't too much problem.
> 
> Even without him, I could pick many big names that could be a bigger villain for JL than Steppenwolf.


The general of the Armies of Apokolips is no joke and the general audience doesn't know him at all. All they had to do was establish him as a powerful badass. They did. He worked. 

And Darkseid's appearance in the beginning of the New 52 sucked. It reduced him to a cut-rate Godzilla with none of the depth or strength of the real Darkseid. DC's biggest villain deserves WAY better than that.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> So apparently Warner Bros. wanted to fire Snyder after Batman v. Superman and take him off of Justice League but decided against it since they were too far into production.
> 
> Sounds awfully familiar but DC didn't get the luck with Whedon that Marvel had
> 
> Also means we will more than likely not be receiving any sort of Snyder version if Warner Bros. is ending their connection with him.
> 
> My apologies, I didn't notice the post earlier.


I've been saying this for a while now as someone who liked BvS enough... and also works in the industry.  Also that Snyder's attachment would affect JL's reception.  Maybe now some people (not you mind you) can admit that WB was NOT happy with BvS's reception.  They probably won't because certain posters would rather die than admit being incorrect.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's super easy to forget, no worries.


You seem like you would know,  How do you embed videos here?  I can never seem to get it to work.

----------


## Awonder

> The general of the Armies of Apokolips is no joke and the general audience doesn't know him at all. All they had to do was establish him as a powerful badass. They did. He worked.


Yeah, he "worked" so well that JL is the talk of the town - for all the wrong reasons.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The general of the Armies of Apokolips is no joke and the general audience doesn't know him at all. All they had to do was establish him as a powerful badass. They did. He worked. 
> 
> And Darkseid's appearance in the beginning of the New 52 sucked. It reduced him to a cut-rate Godzilla with none of the depth or strength of the real Darkseid. DC's biggest villain deserves WAY better than that.


Not really,  he is joke compare to Brainiac, the White Martians, Mongol and a lot more, including Zod and Doomsday. Why do you pick such a low tier villain that require extra work rather than someone who is already a powerful badass?




> Yeah, he "worked" so well that JL is the talk of the town - for all the wrong reasons.


Funny that he is much weaker than Zod's crew and Doomsday with no better characterization than Doomsday.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Funny that he is much weaker than Zod's crew and Doomsday with no better characterization than Doomsday.


Steppenwolf could talk.  Haha... and he had a flashback.




> Yeah, he "worked" so well that JL is the talk of the town - for all the wrong reasons.


Most people enjoyed the heroes despite the villain.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> The general of the Armies of Apokolips is no joke and the general audience doesn't know him at all. All they had to do was establish him as a powerful badass. They did. He worked. 
> 
> And Darkseid's appearance in the beginning of the New 52 sucked. It reduced him to a cut-rate Godzilla with none of the depth or strength of the real Darkseid. DC's biggest villain deserves WAY better than that.


Steppenwolf 100% didn't work. That's gotta be the worst villian I've seen. I think Purple Space Man from the Avengers movies sucks, but this was like next level. They didn't even "finish" rendering his CG.

A big, loud, animatronic Starro would have elicted more emotion out of me. I want animatronic Starro!

----------


## FlashEarthOne

I guess Berg isn't great with budgeting.  It will be interesting to see who gets fired.  I have the feeling WB will be very reactionary to the Infinity War trailer.  Johns might take some heat for this too.  
https://heroichollywood.com/wb-refus...ustice-league/

----------


## Lex Luthor

> I guess Berg isn't great with budgeting.  It will be interesting to see who gets fired.  I have the feeling WB will be very reactionary to the Infinity War trailer.  Johns might take some heat for this too.  
> https://heroichollywood.com/wb-refus...ustice-league/


Id rather have a documentary on the behind the scenes stuff over another Justice League movie at this point. Its about the only thing with a coherent plot DC can conjure up

----------


## Lightning Rider

> You seem like you would know,  How do you embed videos here?  I can never seem to get it to work.


If it's youtube videos, click the blue film icon right next to the speech bubble symbol above the post box. On the far right.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> If it's youtube videos, click the blue film icon right next to the speech bubble symbol above the post box. On the far right.


Thanks.  That was weak that I had to ask.  Haha,

----------


## Soubhagya

There are fans who say Darkseid would have helped. But there is an example in Apocalypse from X-Men Apocalypse. Did he work? He is a villain for X-Men just as Darkseid is for Justice League. Did it work?

For audiences Darkseid would be a cg bad just like any other. Thanos appears intimidating because there has been a build up. Someone whose reputation precedes his appearance. And he would have a whole film for him. We know all heroes. The film does not need to spend much time with anyone. One can focus on showing Thanos as he does things which breaks all prior assumptions and makes short work of heroes.

It may not work in the final film. But it appears better. For people in general there is no difference between Darkseid or Steppenwolf. They are similar.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> There are fans who say Darkseid would have helped. But there is an example in Apocalypse from X-Men Apocalypse. Did he work? He is a villain for X-Men just as Darkseid is for Justice League. Did it work?
> 
> For audiences Darkseid would be a cg bad just like any other. Thanos appears intimidating because there has been a build up. Someone whose reputation precedes his appearance. And he would have a whole film for him. We know all heroes. The film does not need to spend much time with anyone. One can focus on showing Thanos as he does things which breaks all prior assumptions and makes short work of heroes.
> 
> It may not work in the final film. But it appears better. For people in general there is no difference between Darkseid or Steppenwolf. They are similar.


I liked JL and hated that it wasn't what it could have been.  X-Men Apocalypse just wasn't grand enough for Apocalypse plus they made some creative choices that were... well you know.  Brian Singer is good with Wolverine action sequences but not necessarily with the other X-Men.  It seemed almost CW in quality (I like Flash and Supergirl BTW). They will have to go much bigger to make Dark Phoenix work.  I think it was good that Darkseid was not teased... it would have been too similar to the Thanos tease.  The critics would have jumped all over it.  The Injustice Society may have been a better starting point if BvS's Luthor was better.  That is what happens when the foundation isn't strong.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I guess Berg isn't great with budgeting.  It will be interesting to see who gets fired.  I have the feeling WB will be very reactionary to the Infinity War trailer.  Johns might take some heat for this too.  
> https://heroichollywood.com/wb-refus...ustice-league/


Unlikely Johns takes the heat since he wasn't really responsible for Justice League(he came in after shooting began) and wasn't instrumental in  stopping the delay. A lot of people saying  that Tsjuihara will get the boot but remember  WW, Dunkrik, and It were major successes for the studio that surpassed expectations  under his reign so I can definitely see him surviving the inevitable fallout from Justice League's underperformance. With all things considered,  Warners  had a  pretty damn strong year.  Justice League was one of the few black eyes for the studio this year but it's not going to sink this ship--quite the opposite it's just going to make them set a new course and abandon the initially  planned  destination.

----------


## Johnny

> Unlikely Johns takes the heat since he wasn't really responsible for Justice League(he came in after shooting began) and wasn't instrumental in  stopping the delay. I see a lot of people say that Tsjuihara will get the boot but remember  WW, Dunkrik, and It were major success for the studio under his reign so I can definitely see him surviving the inevitable fallout from Justice League's underperformance.  Warners  had a  pretty damn strong year all things considered, and Justice League was one of the few black eyes for the studio this year but it's not going to sink this ship--quite the opposite it's just going to make them set a new course and abandon the initially  planned  destination.


Pretty much. In 2017 WB had flicks like Dunkirk, WW, It, Annabelle: Creation, etc. All movies that were greatly received by both critics and moviegoers. I don't see them making some big company changes just because JL performed below expectations. The most damaging thing the movie did was sour audiences on the DCEU yet again, right after WW started changing their minds about it.

----------


## Agent Z

> *It's dealing with the death of a friendship* and *the downfall of Iron Man.*  The final scene of the flick is Captain America and Bucky beating the hell out of Iron Man (who is the moral hero) after he just found out that Bucky killed his family. I'd say that's a rough ending. It's a "tragedy" in the classical sense.
> 
> It's emotionally heavy and completely sans any CGI-man monster.
> 
> In terms of plot, its not the BEST, but the Russo Brothers make quality films. They know how to balance all these characters and tones and concepts in a way that works well.


What friendship? And didn't we have the downfall of Iron Man in IM3? Or was that Age of Ultron?

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Pretty much. In 2017 WB had flicks like Dunkirk, WW, It, Annabelle: Creation, etc. All movies that were greatly received by both critics and moviegoers. I don't see them making some big company changes just because JL performed below expectations. The most damaging thing the movie did was sour audiences on the DCEU yet again, right after WW started changing their minds about it.


Yeah,  its rather obvious that Warners didn't have much expectation with Justice League given  it's rocky production history. Sure, they probably weren't expecting it do as badly as it's doing now but when they have more expectation for the first ever Aquaman movie than the first ever Justice League movie than you know that they know they done goofed up.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I liked JL and hated that it wasn't what it could have been.  X-Men Apocalypse just wasn't grand enough for Apocalypse plus they made some creative choices that were... well you know.  Brian Singer is good with Wolverine action sequences but not necessarily with the other X-Men.  It seemed almost CW in quality (I like Flash and Supergirl BTW). They will have to go much bigger to make Dark Phoenix work.  I think it was good that Darkseid was not teased... it would have been too similar to the Thanos tease.  The critics would have jumped all over it.  The Injustice Society may have been a better starting point if BvS's Luthor was better.  That is what happens when the foundation isn't strong.


On my part i absolutely loved the film. Its definitely among my top ten comic book films of all time. I got what i wanted. I simply wished for a feature length Justice League episode. And i exactly got that. In fact, it was far better then my expectations. It could have been better. Avengers is definitely a far far better film. But i am satisfied with it.

However i agree about Legion of Doom. That's smart. CG villains are not lending themselves good to film. And Darkseid would make unnecessary comparisons with Avengers and would have made the impression of an inferior Avengers knockoff complete. I am excited to see Legion of Doom in JL 2 if it happens. And this is what bothers me.  It won't happen.

Perhaps reboot the DCEU with new actors except for Gadot. People have given a clear signal. We don't like your movies. We should be talking about whether it would cross the first Avengers. If it would cross 2 billion. A film with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and all shall earn one billion easily. Talks should not be about it whether it should break even. Imagine someone would have told us two years ago that JL will be among the lowest grossing DCEU movies. It would earn less then Deadpool. We would have laughed at him. Called him insane. But yet here we are. 

I loved the movie. But people don't care for it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I guess Berg isn't great with budgeting.  It will be interesting to see who gets fired.  I have the feeling WB will be very reactionary to the Infinity War trailer.  Johns might take some heat for this too.  
> https://heroichollywood.com/wb-refus...ustice-league/


I don't know why the Infinity War trailer should have any effect. The MCU has been around for a decade now. They can afford to grandstand and crow about their actors, characters and themes in their trailer. So far the DCEU was heavily reliant on the previously established iconic status of DC characters that had nothing to do with the DCEU itself. This strategy worked for some (Wonder Woman, Harley & Joker in Suicide Squad, Superman and Batman to a degree) but they need quality content to promote their lesser known characters. Flashy trailers can then be based on that content.

----------


## Confuzzled

> On my part i absolutely loved the film. Its definitely among my top ten comic book films of all time. I got what i wanted. I simply wished for a feature length Justice League episode. And i exactly got that. In fact, it was far better then my expectations. It could have been better. Avengers is definitely a far far better film. But i am satisfied with it.
> 
> However i agree about Legion of Doom. That's smart. CG villains are not lending themselves good to film. And Darkseid would make unnecessary comparisons with Avengers and would have made the impression of an inferior Avengers knockoff complete. I am excited to see Legion of Doom in JL 2 if it happens. And this is what bothers me.  It won't happen.
> 
> Perhaps reboot the DCEU with new actors except for Gadot. People have given a clear signal. We don't like your movies. We should be talking about whether it would cross the first Avengers. If it would cross 2 billion. A film with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and all shall earn one billion easily. Talks should not be about it whether it should break even. Imagine someone would have told us two years ago that JL will be among the lowest grossing DCEU movies. It would earn less then Deadpool. We would have laughed at him. Called him insane. But yet here we are. 
> 
> I loved the movie. But people don't care for it.


People don't care because they have been burned _thrice_ before with MoS, BvS and SS. The fact that the DCEU got so many chances shows how much people wanted it to succeed despite the constant negativity surrounding the franchise from the get go. But when they saw a fourth DCEU movie with a rotten score they checked out. 

I don't see how that's the actors' fault though. Especially if Aquaman overperforms next year, that will seal the deal that it's not the actors, but quality that soured audiences on the DCEU.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I guess Berg isn't great with budgeting.  It will be interesting to see who gets fired.  I have the feeling WB will be very reactionary to the Infinity War trailer.  Johns might take some heat for this too.  
> https://heroichollywood.com/wb-refus...ustice-league/


Yeah, I really don't understand how did a movie with such halfass special effect cost 300M to make, MoS got much cooler action scenes and world setting(Krypton).

If it was like 225-250M, the box office would not have been such a big problem.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I don't know why the Infinity War trailer should have any effect. The MCU has been around for a decade now. They can afford to grandstand and crow about their actors, characters and themes in their trailer. So far the DCEU was heavily reliant on the previously established iconic status of DC characters that had nothing to do with the DCEU itself.


And that's what's funny about the whole thing. DC essentially had access to a treasure trove of their A-list properties unlike Marvel who were left merely of leftovers of  their B and C- list after they sold off  their heavy-hitting A-listers to other studios but Marvel prevailed despite the  disadvantage they were burdened with.  If you told me over a decade ago that in the future that  the  third  Thor film  and the  second Guardians Of Galaxy film would outgross the first ever Justice League film I would've laughed so hard until I was blue in the face.  How could a studio who have access to  heavy hitters like Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman lag behind a company who previously only had mostly B and C listers?   


It's absurd!

----------


## Soubhagya

> People don't care because they have been burned _thrice_ before with MoS, BvS and SS. The fact that the DCEU got so many chances shows how much people wanted it to succeed despite the constant negativity surrounding the franchise from the get go. But when they saw a fourth DCEU movie with a rotten score they checked out. 
> 
> I don't see how that's the actors' fault though. Especially if Aquaman overperforms next year, that will seal the deal that it's not the actors, but quality that soured audiences on the DCEU.


Critics score don't affect much at the BO. I have heard that RT don't affect at all. I have also heard that the RT heavily affects them. If RT affects a lot those small indie films which have 90 percent scores should all earn 600 million. If they don't affect then Pirates of Carribean would not earn as much as they did. Except for the first film none of them are actually good. 

The truth is its somewhere in the middle. I have heard that the score affects upto 10% of the BO earnings. Seems reasonable. Maybe higher maybe lower but i believe its in that range.

The problem is not with actors. But the fact that audiences are soured by divisive offerings by DC so far. Except for WW not one film has been warmly received. One can see the result. Its a graph showing negative growth just as Pirates showed. Over a period of time audiences become indifferent to below par offerings.

Reboot is a way. It cleans all that is wrong and makes them feel like its a new start. Start building slowly and with patience. Give good offerings. And using that break the BO with films like JL. Crisis on Earth X is an example. People are raving about it. Its the result of building things with patience and care. MCU did that and are reaping its benefits. A reboot is among the best options to consider. I loved all the actors. And want to see more of them. But when one reboots one gets new faces. It is not half hearted. There are more good actors around. 

Thus, i say reboot is a good idea. Aquaman is definitely coming. If its a success one can easily keep it in its own universe. I am doubting if they would go ahead with WW 2. They will. But i am not fully confident. Putting so much money shall give results. JL is a disaster. The fact that we are talking about breaking even for JL indicates failure. It should have been the Return of the King of DCEU. Instead it is becoming Matrix Revolutions if we make an analogy. Future films can bomb if they continue like this. That's my humble opinion.

----------


## Confuzzled

> And that's what's funny about the whole thing. DC essentially had access to a treasure trove of their A-list properties unlike Marvel who were left merely of leftovers of  their B and C- list after they sold off  their heavy-hitting A-listers to other studios but Marvel prevailed despite the  disadvantage they were burdened with.  If you told me over a decade ago that in the future that  the  third  Thor film  and the  second Guardians Of Galaxy film would outgross the first ever Justice League film I would've laughed so hard until I was blue in the face.  How could a studio who have access to  heavy hitters like Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman lag behind a company who previously only had mostly B and C listers?   
> 
> It's absurd!


As I said, the DCEU got plenty of chances before despite rotten scores simply due to the iconic status of the DC characters. There's no way another franchise would have opened with 3 rotten movies and consistently made near or over 300M. Even the first Transformers movie made below what Man of Steel did.

Marvel couldn't afford to do that. But Feige had a strong and incredibly well-defined vision that worked really well. The DCEU lacks a visionary of that kind. I enjoy Zack Snyder's work unlike most people (though I'm not on the level of petitioning for his cuts either), but did WB execs _seriously believe_ he was the man for the job?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The idea that "critics don't like dark comic book flicks" doesn't hold any water. Captain America: The Civil War boiled down to a literal tragedy at the climax. It gets DARK, and not superfically dark.
> 
> I'm not saying that, that makes it a better story- just that there are lots of dark comic book joints.


It does get superficially, mostly. There's no tragedy, and the movie itself is not dark.

The only MCU movie that approaches "dark" is Cap 2.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So apparently Warner Bros. wanted to fire Snyder after Batman v. Superman and take him off of Justice League but decided against it since they were too far into production.
> 
> Sounds awfully familiar but DC didn't get the luck with Whedon that Marvel had
> 
> Also means we will more than likely not be receiving any sort of Snyder version if Warner Bros. is ending their connection with him.
> 
> My apologies, I didn't notice the post earlier.


They're not ending their connection with him, as he's still under contract. Hes just not doing these DC movies for awhile, if ever again.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Not really,  he is joke compare to Brainiac, the White Martians, Mongol and a lot more, including Zod and Doomsday. Why do you pick such a low tier villain that require extra work rather than someone who is already a powerful badass?
> 
> 
> 
> Funny that he is much weaker than Zod's crew and Doomsday with no better characterization than Doomsday.


Wow...

Okay. You didn't read Earth 2.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Unlikely Johns takes the heat since he wasn't really responsible for Justice League(he came in after shooting began) and wasn't instrumental in  stopping the delay. A lot of people saying  that Tsjuihara will get the boot but remember  WW, Dunkrik, and It were major successes for the studio that surpassed expectations  under his reign so I can definitely see him surviving the inevitable fallout from Justice League's underperformance. With all things considered,  Warners  had a  pretty damn strong year.  Justice League was one of the few black eyes for the studio this year but it's not going to sink this ship--quite the opposite it's just going to make them set a new course and abandon the initially  planned  destination.


Even tho it's a good thing he greenlights films like Fury Road, and Blade Runner 2049, the former barely made profit, and the latter bombed. Tsujihara likely will face heat following BvS, SS, BR2049, MM:FR, and JL.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> What friendship? And didn't we have the downfall of Iron Man in IM3? Or was that Age of Ultron?


Lol, that's what I've been saying.

The "friendship", and "downfall", in that movie was just as superficial as the effect of Superman's death in the DCEU.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> As I said, the DCEU got plenty of chances before despite rotten scores simply due to the iconic status of the DC characters. There's no way another franchise would have opened with 3 rotten movies and consistently made near or over 300M. Even the first Transformers movie made below what Man of Steel did.
> 
> Marvel couldn't afford to do that. But Feige had a strong and incredibly well-defined vision that worked really well. The DCEU lacks a visionary of that kind. I enjoy Zack Snyder's work unlike most people (though I'm not on the level of petitioning for his cuts either), but did WB execs _seriously believe_ he was the man for the job?


He would, if they had a plan. Also he should've been one of multiple dudes. 

I personally think that Zack would work best co-directing with a better storyteller, but one with similar sensibilities to him so there's no clashing.

Affleck, and Villanueve, would work great with him, I feel.

----------


## manofsteel1979

While I didn't dislike JL as much as this guy, he's not wrong. 





To tell the truth, I didn't realize the continuity blunder with Cyborg's origin. It's almost as if Whedon didn't even bother to watch BvS or at least consult the script to get this small bit of dialogue right. Now it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Warner Bros: f$cking up DC superhero films since 1979! At least they're consistent. Although to be fair, the Superman II debacle can't be laid entirely at their feet. That's more on the Salkinds.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Wow...
> 
> Okay. You didn't read Earth 2.


Yeah, ambushed WW and got PWNed by the clone Superman makes him a super villain on level with these big names.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah, ambushed WW and got PWNed by the clone Superman makes him a super villain on level with these big names.


His invasion killed the original League. Yeah, he ambushed WW...so? He was cunning, and smart enough, to do what he did. 

Also, getting killed by a bloodthirsty Superman, with no inhibitions isn't something to scoff at. Darkseid has been beaten by Superman before, too. 

Earth 2 Steppenwolf was a really effective villain, who used strategy to win. That's what Lex, and Brainiac, do, and they've been defeated a Supes plenty of times.

----------


## Carabas

> There are fans who say Darkseid would have helped. But there is an example in Apocalypse from X-Men Apocalypse. Did he work? He is a villain for X-Men just as Darkseid is for Justice League. Did it work?


I don't think that Apocalypse has ever worked for the X-Men, not even in the comics. I see him as basically a video game boss.

Darkseid on the other hand is one of Kirby's better creations.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> They're not ending their connection with him, as he's still under contract. Hes just not doing these DC movies for awhile, if ever again.


Yeah they said his deal has been extended, no idea where this rumour they wanted to fire him came from. JL started production a month after BvS plenty of time to fire someone. 

Snyder said he wanted to move onto other projects non DC and after the JL debacle I think that's set. Good for him let's just hope WB leaves him alone in peace. 

Let's see WB cut up:
Sucker Punch
Watchmen
BvS
JL

Fan of Snyder or not that's just too ridiculous. Ironically they cut up Sucker Punch to make it "audience friendly" and it flopped... History repeated itself with JL. It's almost as if a meddling studio doesn't learn! Not to mention similar SS shenanigans... 

No wonder there has been so many fall outs with directors over the DCEU. I'm not convinced a Matt Reeves Batman film is gonna happen, watch this space. 

WB are supposed to be a competent well established studio yet since late 2008 (with the exception of TDKR and WW) they've been screwing with DC and their fans, all started with a shambolic Blu-ray transfer of The Dark Knight.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Just watched this scene again:




Man, it still gives me goosebumps. Yes it has the Zimmer greatness (Elfman needs to stick to Burton movies, as he can't do epic, majestic, and mystifying stuff like this in his dreams), but look at the way the world is shot and scope, and weight, that Superman is given.

I can somewhat understand WB wanting to change tone to be lighter, but I think its clear that they forced Zack to change the way he was going to shoot the movie, too. It not only feels more MCU, but looks more MCU. Also, when I say MCU, I mean everything that isn't Iron Man flying, or Ant-Man shrinking, where nearly every scene is shot flatly. Very little depth, both in storytelling, and scope. Even after rewatching the IW trailer multiple times, the only thing impressive is the mo-cap on Thanos. There's nothing special about the way the shoots are captured. The shot of Cap, BP, and friends running looks pretty bad too. However that flat look is the style of the MCU, regardless of director so I'm not gonna blame them.

People will say it's the CGI, but look at the scene above, or the opening scene in MoS. Light years beyond what was done in JL.

In MoS, and BvS, they were shot to look like films. JL was shot to look like a movie, and it saps the team up of anything epic.

I'm looking forward to how they're going to shot their films from now on.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't think that Apocalypse has ever worked for the X-Men, not even in the comics. I see him as basically a video game boss.
> 
> Darkseid on the other hand is one of Kirby's better creations.


He worked for AoA, but besides that you're right. He felt better in the Thor flashback issue, in Remender's UA. Dark Angel also pulled off the Apocalypse act better, too. Tho, that could've been because of Jerome Opeña's pencils...

----------


## TheSupernaut

> Just watched this scene again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man, it still gives me goosebumps. Yes it has the Zimmer greatness (Elfman needs to stick to Burton movies, as he can't do epic, majestic, and mystifying stuff like this in his dreams), but look at the way the world is shot and scope, and weight, that Superman is given.
> 
> I can somewhat understand WB wanting to change tone to be lighter, but I think its clear that they forced Zack to change the way he was going to shoot the movie, too. It not only feels more MCU, but looks more MCU. Also, when I say MCU, I mean everything that isn't Iron Man flying, or Ant-Man shrinking, where nearly every scene is shot flatly. Very little depth, both in storytelling, and scope. Even after rewatching the IW trailer multiple times, the only thing impressive is the mo-cap on Thanos. There's nothing special about the way the shoots are captured. The shot of Cap, BP, and friends running looks pretty bad too. However that flat look is the style of the MCU, regardless of director so I'm not gonna blame them.
> 
> ...


Yeah I expected something more akin to Watchmen.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Thus, i say reboot is a good idea. Aquaman is definitely coming. If its a success one can easily keep it in its own universe. I am doubting if they would go ahead with WW 2. They will. But i am not fully confident. Putting so much money shall give results. JL is a disaster. The fact that we are talking about breaking even for JL indicates failure. It should have been the Return of the King of DCEU. Instead it is becoming Matrix Revolutions if we make an analogy. Future films can bomb if they continue like this. That's my humble opinion.


I still don't think a reboot is the right way to go, it would be throwing the baby (wonder woman, majority of the cast) out with the bathwater. 

Just make a good aquaman movie, then a good WW sequel, then a good batman movie, and see where we are from there.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I still don't think a reboot is the right way to go, it would be throwing the baby (wonder woman, majority of the cast) out with the bathwater. 
> 
> Just make a good aquaman movie, then a good WW sequel, then a good batman movie, and see where we are from there.


The fact of the matter is no one wants to make a bad film. Everyone wants to make a film which is good. The studio, the film makers, all the people associated want to make good films. Its not easy to tell whether the final film will be 'good' and accepted as such. Its always a risk. Who knows tomorrow Black Panther turns out to be bad or Avengers IW sucks. Marvel is yet to make a 'bad' film. Average maybe but not bad. This is why every film is almost guaranteed to make money. Marvel is a proven and trusted brand. If its excellent it would make lots of money. If average it still makes enough money.

Starting fresh means they can hope to be free from the overall negative reception. Most of the cast is good. But there are other good actors available. Actors can be replaced. Audiences are comfortable with the idea of reboots. Its still risky. Because they would still try to make good films which they are trying anyway. But they can get rid of the stigma associated with previous failures. People don't just love Iron Man. They love RDJ as Iron Man. Pretty much all Marvel actors are like that. In DC, the only one who has such love is Gal Gadot as WW. 

In my opinion she can be replaced. But its not wise to do so. For so many people she is Wonder Woman. Had there been no WW the obvious answer was a reboot. But WW's success complicates things. I would say the way out would be let Gal Gadot star in Wonder Woman films in her own universe.The next film was to be set in the 70s. So, a connection to the wider universe is unnecessary. Aquaman can be done like that. If it fails there's no problem. End it. If it succeeds Aquaman and WW can't be part of the rebooted DCEU till their series are completed. 

By replacing actors start the DCEU afresh. Ben Affleck is leaving. I don't think he is going to do Batman anymore. Henry Cavill has one film which can be changed so that he appears in another WB film. I can't positively say that anyone else from JL is getting another film set at DCEU at all. There would be some major rethinking unless they planned for such a situation beforehand. 

So, i say keep the baby. Wonder Woman is the only genuine success. Majority of the cast can be replaced without much problems. As i said everyone wants to make a good film. But such a long list of divisive films makes success more difficult. People just give up. You begin with a disadvantage.

----------


## Carabas

> Just make a good aquaman movie, then a good WW sequel, then a good batman movie, and see where we are from there.


I suspect that none of these will be good. WB just can't help themselves with movies they consider important.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

Yeah I just think WB just needs to, you know, make a few good movies and it can salvage the DCEU. As much as I wish certain things could be rebooted out of the DCEU, I think going that route would basically be admitting defeat. We’ll see how Wan’s Aquaman goes and then go from there. Hopefully WB can get someone good at editing or just not insist on doing the editing themselves.

I would be up for canceling certain projects though. Maybe replace the Cyborg solo with a Titans film and get MM on the JL already. Just a thought.

Oh and for god sakes, fix the CGI. Even Wonder Woman suffered a bit from bad visual effects. It’s WB. They can obviously afford better special effects.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The fact of the matter is no one wants to make a bad film. Everyone wants to make a film which is good. The studio, the film makers, all the people associated want to make good films. Its not easy to tell whether the final film will be 'good' and accepted as such. Its always a risk. Who knows tomorrow Black Panther turns out to be bad or Avengers IW sucks. Marvel is yet to make a 'bad' film. Average maybe but not bad. This is why every film is almost guaranteed to make money. Marvel is a proven and trusted brand. If its excellent it would make lots of money. If average it still makes enough money.
> 
> Starting fresh means they can hope to be free from the overall negative reception. Most of the cast is good. But there are other good actors available. Actors can be replaced. Audiences are comfortable with the idea of reboots. Its still risky. Because they would still try to make good films which they are trying anyway. But they can get rid of the stigma associated with previous failures. People don't just love Iron Man. They love RDJ as Iron Man. Pretty much all Marvel actors are like that. In DC, the only one who has such love is Gal Gadot as WW. 
> 
> In my opinion she can be replaced. But its not wise to do so. For so many people she is Wonder Woman. Had there been no WW the obvious answer was a reboot. But WW's success complicates things. I would say the way out would be let Gal Gadot star in Wonder Woman films in her own universe.The next film was to be set in the 70s. So, a connection to the wider universe is unnecessary. Aquaman can be done like that. If it fails there's no problem. End it. If it succeeds Aquaman and WW can't be part of the rebooted DCEU till their series are completed. 
> 
> By replacing actors start the DCEU afresh. Ben Affleck is leaving. I don't think he is going to do Batman anymore. Henry Cavill has one film which can be changed so that he appears in another WB film. I can't positively say that anyone else from JL is getting another film set at DCEU at all. There would be some major rethinking unless they planned for such a situation beforehand. 
> 
> So, i say keep the baby. Wonder Woman is the only genuine success. Majority of the cast can be replaced without much problems. As i said everyone wants to make a good film. But such a long list of divisive films makes success more difficult. People just give up. You begin with a disadvantage.


I hope they just lick their wounds and keep going. Anyone who’s read my posts knows that I am a massive fan of the DCEU we’ve gotten, and I can see the flaws in it but I just don’t care. My love for these films is greater than my issues. 

Setting my love aside, they need to course correct in a way that will win back the audience, without losing their built-in fanbase (hopefully). It’ll be damn tough, and I don’t know if they can do it, but I at least want to see them try. I’m extremely grateful for Gadot as Wonder Woman, because as you alluded to they can’t toss out the universe without tossing her with it. And they won’t do that, so at least some part of the DCEU will move forward, to my delight. If it weren’t for her, I could have totally seen them re-edit Aquaman to completely stand alone. As for the actors, I agree that Affleck is probably done. I wish to Joker he would stay, but...I dunno. I was on the side of believing him at SDCC when he said he was going nowhere, and I dismissed the rumors...but his demeanor inrecent weeks, coupled with JL’s reception, well...he’s the cast member with the most to lose, career wise. He had a career resurgence since ‘Gone Baby Gone’, and his career can’t take too many more hits before he’ll be poison again. 

Cavill, I hope, gets one more shot. He’s charismatic as hell, and he just looks like Superman. He deserves another shot, with an actor’s director this time. I know a lot of people said he was wooden in MoS (I didn’t, but many did), but I never heard that complaint when it came to BvS. The complaints revolved around the script for him, but not really about Cavill specifically. And since the reviews that slam JL are still stating that he is a highlight, I really hope he gets 1 more crack at it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Also: I find it ironic that, for all the hate sent Snyders way, for all of the Snyder ruined these movies! negativity...the DCEU will continue in large part due to Gal Gadot, an actress cast to play Wonder Woman, by a director named Zack Snyder  :Smile:  

I think Snyder got screwed, personally, but itd delicious that a decision he made will lead to more DCEU projects in the future.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> His invasion killed the original League. Yeah, he ambushed WW...so? He was cunning, and smart enough, to do what he did. 
> 
> Also, getting killed by a bloodthirsty Superman, with no inhibitions isn't something to scoff at. Darkseid has been beaten by Superman before, too. 
> 
> Earth 2 Steppenwolf was a really effective villain, who used strategy to win. That's what Lex, and Brainiac, do, and they've been defeated a Supes plenty of times.


Yeah, that's really a big talking about compare to the big names. PWNED by the clone Superman like that was his best showing.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't think that Apocalypse has ever worked for the X-Men, not even in the comics. I see him as basically a video game boss.
> 
> Darkseid on the other hand is one of Kirby's better creations.


Thankfully an article came up which tells my views more clearly. The first film of Justice League means the villain would have a small time on screen. Darkseid's arrival shall be Earth shattering. Definitely not someone who is beaten in 15 minutes. Which face it is the realistic time frame in a 2 to 2.5 hour film where the focus is in bringing the team together. Darkseid would have been just as underwhelming as Steppenwolf. That is my opinion.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#15caa0f06825

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Also: I find it ironic that, for all the hate sent Snyders way, for all of the Snyder ruined these movies! negativity...the DCEU will continue in large part due to Gal Gadot, an actress cast to play Wonder Woman, by a director named Zack Snyder  
> 
> I think Snyder got screwed, personally, but itd delicious that a decision he made will lead to more DCEU projects in the future.


I don't think he got screwed.  However back when BvS came out I said that Snyder's biggest influence would be that he cast the JL and Luthor.  He succeeded with WW and it appears the he may have succeeded with Aquaman and having Wan on board will help.  Miller was a direct cast without looking at anyone else, it remains to be seen if Miller can carry his own movie.  I personally think he really needs to evolve past his JL performance to do that.  He needs a director who can reign him in... maybe make him run like a person who knows how to run. Those were bold decisions.  All these other directors/writers have to work with the people who Snyder cast and time will tell if they work.  We'll see what happens with the rest.  You give credit where is due as well as fault.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Yeah I just think WB just needs to, you know, make a few good movies and it can salvage the DCEU. As much as I wish certain things could be rebooted out of the DCEU, I think going that route would basically be admitting defeat. We’ll see how Wan’s Aquaman goes and then go from there. Hopefully WB can get someone good at editing or just not insist on doing the editing themselves.
> 
> I would be up for canceling certain projects though. Maybe replace the Cyborg solo with a Titans film and get MM on the JL already. Just a thought.
> 
> Oh and for god sakes, fix the CGI. Even Wonder Woman suffered a bit from bad visual effects. It’s WB. They can obviously afford better special effects.


Most of this I can agree with. I think it's silly to say, replace Henry Cavill an actor that genuinely loves the character he's been playing and WANTS to continue playing him even with all the controversy surrounding these films and replace him with likely an unknown actor  who may only do one movie before deciding​ that he doesn't want to do it anymore after getting a taste of what Cavill ( and before him, Routh)had to endure from the internet. Even most people  that seem to intensely dislike these movies like Cavill and like him in the role and want to see him continue. The JL  Movie closes the door on the Snyder direction. The basic continuity that's in place is strong enough to build upon.theres no reason to retell everyone's origins again, especially Superman's. Just use the casts Snyder gathered and tell new stories that build up the universe. No need to reboot, Because that doesn't guarantee better movies. Just do a better job going forward.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Most of this I can agree with. I think it's silly to say, replace Henry Cavill an actor that genuinely loves the character he's been playing and WANTS to continue playing him even with all the controversy surrounding these films and replace him with likely an unknown actor  who may only do one movie before deciding​ that he doesn't want to do it anymore after getting a taste of what Cavill ( and before him, Routh)had to endure from the internet.


I know someone who follows Cavill all around the world blogging and interviewing him on whatever project or charity he is doing.  Replacing Cavill would be a huge mistake and likely a financial decision based on how much he wants.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Yeah I just think WB just needs to, you know, make a few good movies and it can salvage the DCEU. As much as I wish certain things could be rebooted out of the DCEU, I think going that route would basically be admitting defeat. We’ll see how Wan’s Aquaman goes and then go from there. Hopefully WB can get someone good at editing or just not insist on doing the editing themselves.
> 
> I would be up for canceling certain projects though. Maybe replace the Cyborg solo with a Titans film and get MM on the JL already. Just a thought.
> 
> Oh and for god sakes, fix the CGI. Even Wonder Woman suffered a bit from bad visual effects. It’s WB. They can obviously afford better special effects.


Admitting defeat would be either giving up making superhero films or giving up efforts to keep the films interconnected-The DC Extended Universe. At this point both are possible. I won't be surprised if Aquaman is the last superhero film that WB makes. They wanted to focus on DC after Harry Potter was ending. Now they have Fantastic Beasts. They are becoming successful in other films. Why keep trying making superhero films if these are not working. JL can loose money. A film with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman can loose money. What kind of crazy world are we living in! A Justice League film is going to earn less then Suicide Squad. Less then Deadpool. Its shocking.

Aquaman has been shot. So,this is sure. I am not sure about anything else. WW 2 is something i can bet on. But i am not 100 percent sure about it. Who knows they might pull the plug. Aquaman's failure might mean the last nail in the coffin. That's defeat.

There is another defeat. Give up the extended part of DCEU. No more interconnectedness. Just as Deadpool and X-Men. Each films are in separate universes of their own. That would be admitting defeat. If Aquaman succeeds and it is a standalone with no connection to DCEU as a whole, they may forego the DCEU altogether. They would make superhero films. But one can't hope to see Flash interacting with Green Lantern.

If they reboot i see it as 'we have lost the battle but not the war'. Focus on standalone films with only hints to the existence of a wider universe. If they succeed, DCEU is back on track. The train has derailed after JL. If JL can't earn 100 million in opening weekend it is something big. One can't handwaive it and go ahead just as planned.

Cast is the best thing we got from these films. But reboot is a good option to consider.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah, that's really a big talking about compare to the big names. PWNED by the clone Superman like that was his best showing.


Okay....

What's up with you?

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> but did WB execs _seriously believe_ he was the man for the job?


They really didn't at first. They initially  wanted Chris Nolan but he  wasn't interested in spearheading a cinematic universe much less directing yet another film based on an iconic superhero. It's rather telling that in some of  the early marketing for Man Of Steel they included  ''from producer Chris Nolan director of The  Dark Knight trilogy"  since they were still hoping for some of that Dark Knight magic to rub off on Superman  and it kind of payed off as  MOS was relatively successful(despite the mixed reactions), having  made some bank(it was the first successful non-Batman DC superhero film since the Donner movies). Did it do as well as it could've have? No. But it did well enough to keep Snyder involved creatively, and Snyder had already let  the genie out of  the bottle by proposing that they do the first ever DC crossover film with BvS.  In hindsight,  they should've gotten rid of Snyder back then but what other director was willing to do this at this pace?  A pace that gets them to joining the billion dollar club sooner rather than later?  

It's the worst kept secret in Hollywood that Warners always wanted to do a Justice League film and the prospect of doing a crossover film with arguably two of the most iconic superheroes of  all time was too tantalizing to just take "the slow and steady wins the race'' mentality by doing  solo films to build up to that. After all, Warner's was running out of big IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to end, and The  Hobbit were bound to end so  in that way I can understand why they stuck with Snyder as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more  than any of their  directors; especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keep the characters separate from one another.   Snyder made sense at the time:  he already made the most  successful Superman movie ever that despite the middle-of-the-road response  it still got an "A" Cinemascore and again was the  most successful non-Batman DC superhero film and he was already willingly provided a ideal template to jumpstart the DC cinematic universe. 

 After all, Warner's was running out of key IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to an end  and The  Hobbit was ending soon. So  in a way I can understand why they kept Snyder onboard as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more  than any of their  directors, especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keeping the characters separate from one another.  

Marvel's story is  the tale of the underdog becoming the _overdog_ and DC's tale is the overdog becoming the _underdog._ Marvel at the very start was at a  disadvantage as  they only had  access to their lower-tier characters that held little pre-existing popularity but they worked towards becoming the juggernaut that they are today while DC always had access  to their top-tier characters but they lazied up to the punchline they are now.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The fact of the matter is no one wants to make a bad film. Everyone wants to make a film which is good. The studio, the film makers, all the people associated want to make good films. Its not easy to tell whether the final film will be 'good' and accepted as such. Its always a risk. Who knows tomorrow Black Panther turns out to be bad or Avengers IW sucks. Marvel is yet to make a 'bad' film. Average maybe but not bad. This is why every film is almost guaranteed to make money. Marvel is a proven and trusted brand. If its excellent it would make lots of money. If average it still makes enough money.
> 
> Starting fresh means they can hope to be free from the overall negative reception. Most of the cast is good. But there are other good actors available. Actors can be replaced. Audiences are comfortable with the idea of reboots. Its still risky. Because they would still try to make good films which they are trying anyway. But they can get rid of the stigma associated with previous failures. People don't just love Iron Man. They love RDJ as Iron Man. Pretty much all Marvel actors are like that. In DC, the only one who has such love is Gal Gadot as WW. 
> 
> In my opinion she can be replaced. But its not wise to do so. For so many people she is Wonder Woman. Had there been no WW the obvious answer was a reboot. But WW's success complicates things. I would say the way out would be let Gal Gadot star in Wonder Woman films in her own universe.The next film was to be set in the 70s. So, a connection to the wider universe is unnecessary. Aquaman can be done like that. If it fails there's no problem. End it. If it succeeds Aquaman and WW can't be part of the rebooted DCEU till their series are completed. 
> 
> By replacing actors start the DCEU afresh. Ben Affleck is leaving. I don't think he is going to do Batman anymore. Henry Cavill has one film which can be changed so that he appears in another WB film. I can't positively say that anyone else from JL is getting another film set at DCEU at all. There would be some major rethinking unless they planned for such a situation beforehand. 
> 
> So, i say keep the baby. Wonder Woman is the only genuine success. Majority of the cast can be replaced without much problems. As i said everyone wants to make a good film. But such a long list of divisive films makes success more difficult. People just give up. You begin with a disadvantage.


Most of the cast are very good, replacing them is more risky, no.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Okay....
> 
> What's up with you?


We are talking about the big names like Zod, Doomsday, Brainiac, Mongol and a lot more, Steppenwolf, even with the Earth 2 little showing, was much less famous and powerful among them, his characterization is very generic as well.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> They really didn't. They really wanted Chris Nolan but he  wasn't interested in spearheading a cinematic universe much less directing yet another film based on an iconic superhero. It's rather telling that in some of  the early marketing for Man Of Steel they included  ''from producer Chris Nolan director of The  Dark Knight trilogy"  since they were still hoping for some of that Dark Knight magic to rub off on Superman  and it kind of payed off as  MOS was relatively successful(despite the mixed reactions), having  made some bank(it was the first successful non-Batman DC superhero film since the Donner movies). Did it do as well as could've have? No. But it did well enough to keep Snyder involved creatively, and Snyder had already let  the genie out of  the bottle by proposing that they do the first ever DC crossover film with BvS.  In hindsight,  they should've gotten rid of Snyder back then but what other director was willing to do this at this pace?  A pace that gets them to joining the billion dollar club sooner rather than later?  
> 
> It's the worst kept secret in Hollywood that Warners always wanted to do a Justice League film and the prospect of doing a crossover film with arguably two of the most iconic superheroes of  all time was too tantalizing to just take "the slow and steady wins the race'' mentality by doing  solo films to build up to that. After all, Warner's was running out of big IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to end, and The  Hobbit were bound to end so  in that way I can understand why they stuck with Snyder as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more  than any of their  directors; especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keep the characters separate from one another.   Snyder made sense at the time:  he already made the most  successful Superman movie that despite the middle-of-the-road response  it still got an "A" Cinemascore and again was  most successful non-Batman DC superhero film so of course they were going to  stick with him.
> 
>  After all, Warner's was running out of key IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to end  and The  Hobbit were bound to end so  in that way I can understand why they stuck with Snyder as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more  than any of their  directors, especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keeping the characters separate from one another.  
> 
> 
> Marvel's story is  the tale of the underdog becoming the _overdog_ and DC's tale is the overdog becoming the _underdog._ Marvel at the very start was at a  disadvantage as  they only had  access to their lower-tier characters but they worked towards becoming the juggernaut that they are today while DC always had access  to their top-tier characters but they lazied up to the punchline they are now.


Honestly prior to the Dark Knight trilogy, the last true bonafide Superhero hit they had was Batman 89 and maybe Batman Forever. Before that it was Superman II in 1980. Warner's did a pretty decent job damaging the DC brand before Zack Snyder. They dragged their feet for 20 years and instead of putting effort into cultivating their characters instead of occasionally making  just  ( generally) bad Superman and Batman movies, they waited until Marvel was already half way to build their universe and thought foolishly they could play catch up with one movie. Laziness and pure hubris.

While there is no doubt the critical drubbing BvS  got didn't help matters , the path that led us to a Justice League movie for all intents and purposes flopping started long ago. The article that came out yesterday only highlights that the culture inside Warners that pretty much been in place for too long. It wasn't sunshine and lollipops before evil Snyder raped people's childhoods. I have no doubt had it been literally anyone else at the helm of the DCEU , Justice League still would have turned out a hot mess overall Because Warner's probably still would have micromanaged things to death.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Zack had his pros and cons, WB didn't use him correctly.

Even Nolan's style doesn't fit something like DCEU. They should have Geoff Johns to oversee the project and hire different directors to do it.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

I’m not pushing all the blame on Snyder. There’s precedent for Warners to screw up prior to the Snyder’s but I’m only talking about the faulty way they handled their cinematic universe by entrusting it  all to Snyder who for all and intents purposes isn’t much a storyteller and his style doesn’t resonate as much as the MCU  approach. And if there was such a culture of micromanaging then why is does the Nolan trilogy exist? Green Lantern I’ll give you. 

The article in question doesn’t really show there was a culture of meddling that’s existed prior to the Snyder but it shows Warners became meddlesome after giving Snyder very little meddling on both MOS and especially BvS. If they hired  a filmmmaker of Nolan’s caliber or at least  good director with good story instincts than we’d be in a very different place right now.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I’m not pushing all the blame on Snyder. There’s precedent for Warners to screw up prior to the Snyder’s but I’m only talking about the faulty way they handled their cinematic universe by entrusting it  all to Snyder who for all and intents purposes isn’t much a storyteller and his style doesn’t resonate as much as the MCU  approach. And if there was such a culture of micromanaging then why is does the Nolan trilogy exist? Green Lantern I’ll give you. 
> 
> The article in question doesn’t really show there was a culture of meddling that’s existed prior to the Snyder but it shows Warners became meddlesome after giving Snyder very little meddling on both MOS and especially BvS. If they hired  a filmmmaker of Nolan’s caliber or at least  good director with good story instincts than we’d be in a very different place right now.


Snyder was no good storyteller but neither was Goyer, why did they let him write the story? If I'm not wrong Ben Affleck's team also wrote part of BVS.

MoS was quite good overall, better than SR which is why DCEU could make a start. BVS was the big problem here. It wasn't so bad as a movie, but surely a big wrong step on the overall plan."Who started and decided the BVS project" should take the most blame. It's gong to fail from the beginning, even if you have hired Nolan it's not going to be different.

Even with all the wrongsteps, JL could have been less of a problem if the budget didn't go up that high and it doesn't have super high special effect.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I’m not pushing all the blame on Snyder. There’s precedent for Warners to screw up prior to the Snyder’s but I’m only talking about the faulty way they handled their cinematic universe by entrusting it  all to Snyder who for all and intents purposes isn’t much a storyteller and his style doesn’t resonate as much as the MCU  approach. And if there was such a culture of micromanaging then why is does the Nolan trilogy exist? Green Lantern I’ll give you. 
> 
> The article in question doesn’t really show there was a culture of meddling that’s existed prior to the Snyder but it shows Warners became meddlesome after giving Snyder very little meddling on both MOS and especially BvS. If they hired  a filmmmaker of Nolan’s caliber or at least  good director with good story instincts than we’d be in a very different place right now.


I'm in the camp that has been saying a lot but NOT ALL blame should go to Snyder.  The Snyder apologists always seem to deflect and spin in a way that puts no fault on him at all... it is bordering on worship.  The meddling started when WB saw the BvS UE.  It wasn't what they wanted.  That is when the meddling started... it wasn't during the filming of BvS.  He had control on the filming of both MOS and BvS until he showed them the UE.  That is when they stepped in.  They felt like they had given him too much freedom.




> Zack had his pros and cons, WB didn't use him correctly.
> 
> Even Nolan's style doesn't fit something like DCEU. They should have Geoff Johns to oversee the project and hire different directors to do it.


Nolan's style wouldn't fit the DCU.  I'm not sure Johns would be the answer as far as hiring any directors.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I'm in the camp that has been saying a lot but NOT ALL blame should go to Snyder.  The Snyder apologists always seem to deflect and spin in a way that puts no fault on him at all... it is bordering on worship.  The meddling started when WB saw the BvS UE.  It wasn't what they wanted.  That is when the meddling started... it wasn't during the filming of BvS.  He had control on the filming of both MOS and BvS until he showed them the UE.  That is when they stepped in.  They felt like they had give him too much freedom.


Snyder was very awesome at shooting epic scenes from comic and got great action scenes, but he is a bad storyteller so you need someone else to write a good script for him. MoS pretty much showed both sides of Snyder. Awesome action scenes+some confusing storytelling and weird dark tone. 

I think WB should have realized this right after MoS and try to make it work better, but they didn't do it well.

Still I want to ask, who had started and decided the BVS project? This is the most important part if we want to decide "who to blame".

Geoff Johns should be the overseer and there is no director with superior power, they just shoot their movies like MCU did.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Snyder was no good storyteller but neither was Goyer, why did they let him write the story? If I'm not wrong Ben Affleck's team also wrote part of BVS.
> 
> MoS was quite good overall, better than SR which is why DCEU could make a start. BVS was the big problem here. It wasn't so bad as a movie, but surely a big wrong step on the overall plan."Who started and decided the BVS project" should take the most blame. It's gong to fail from the beginning, even if you have hired Nolan it's not going to be different.
> 
> Even with all the wrongsteps, JL could have been less of a problem if the budget didn't go up that high and it doesn't have super high special effect.


The problem is that a movie like JL is always going to have a big budget (maybe not $300 million.)  The Flash will likely need a larger budget as well... maybe not as much as Aquaman.  You are correct in that WB/DC needs to improve on their stable of writers.  In this debate I'm always be more of a fact guy than speculation.  I'm not going to go as far as "BvS was going to fail" on the concept alone.  Perhaps if they didn't try to combine The Dark Knight Returns with the Death of Superman?  I don't know the answers but maybe DC's writers should be forced to stick to more strict adaptions from the source material... like adapting comic arcs more directly because its seems like the writers (Goyer, Terrio) may be taking too many liberties. I  work in the industry and understand the egos involved.  Sometimes when trying to hard to "make things their own" creative people stray too far away from the source.  Actors, directors, writers, hell in the case even costume designers are want to put their own spin on things understandably.  In the process they go too far... I think that is what happened with Flash costume.

----------


## Badou

If Snyder's vision for MoS was more generally accepted instead of being so divisive then WB wouldn't be in the mess they are in. That movie kicked off the DCEU on such a bad note where fans are still talking about what bothered them about it. It is the root of all the problems because it set the tone and look of what they tried to turn the DCEU into, which many fans did not like. Then for some reason they decided to double down on Snyder's vision and do BvS, and that was even more divisive and basically sent WB into panic mode where they felt they had to change things to try and win back favor with the fans but the damage was already done by then. 

I think Snyder can be a good director under certain circumstances, but he had his opportunity with these movies to get his vision across and it didn't work. He had MoS and BvS to showcase what he saw for the DCEU where WB let him have a lot of freedom to do what he wanted, maybe too much freedom, and that vision just never connected with the amount of fans WB was hoping for. It is WB's fault for continuing with Snyder's vision for a 3rd movie in JL when by that time they clearly were in serious panic mode. They should have gotten someone different to direct it from the start, because by then they knew what Snyder was going to try and do and WB had to have known that it wasn't going to align with how they wanted to course correct the movies.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Snyder was very awesome at shooting epic scenes from comic and got great action scenes, but he is a bad storyteller so you need someone else to write a good script for him. MoS pretty much showed both sides of Snyder. Awesome action scenes+some confusing storytelling and weird dark tone. 
> 
> I think WB should have realized this right after MoS and try to make it work better, but they didn't do it well.
> 
> Still I want to ask, who had started and decided the BVS project? This is the most important part if we want to decide "who to blame".
> 
> Geoff Johns should be the overseer and there is no director with superior power, they just shoot their movies like MCU did.


I liked MOS but I think it suffered from Goyer trying to write a script similar in structure to Batman Begins.  It is understandable WHY they did it.. to prevent the standard origin story but it didn't have the same strength as Batman Begins.  I'm not that heavily invested in the Krypton universe but I also didn't like the aesthetics of their Kryptonian culture.  Again I still enjoyed MOS and didn't have the issues with it that others did.  

No one really knows right now who OKed BvS.  I'm going to guess Berg or Tsujihara with Snyder.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't think he got screwed.  However back when BvS came out I said that Snyder's biggest influence would be that he cast the JL and Luthor.  He succeeded with WW and it appears the he may have succeeded with Aquaman and having Wan on board will help.  Miller was a direct cast without looking at anyone else, it remains to be seen if Miller can carry his own movie.  I personally think he really needs to evolve past his JL performance to do that.  He needs a director who can reign him in... maybe make him run like a person who knows how to run. Those were bold decisions.  All these other directors/writers have to work with the people who Snyder cast and time will tell if they work.  We'll see what happens with the rest.  You give credit where is due as well as fault.


I should have said ‘screwed’ as in, WB keeps chopping up his films (Watchmen, Sucker Punch, BvS, JL, to an extent on this last one)...the quality and entertainment of each is up to individual viewers to decide, of course, but if they hired the man to make a movie then they should let him make it. Obviously, if he turns in a product that is too long / too dark / too tonally different, then fine - don’t hire him to make another. 

He’s an artist like every other director, so if you hire him to do a job then you should be prepared to live with the results, good or bad. If I commission an art piece and I don’t like it? I go to another artist next time. They knew what they were getting with his style after his first couple of movies. In the case of JL, delaying production following BvS’ critical backlash would have been expensive, yes. But more expensive than having to reshoot 30% of the movie? I don’t know about that. 

That’s what I meant when I said he got screwed. They hired him for multiple jobs, he did his thing on them, but they weren’t willing to live with the results. So snip snip.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The problem is that a movie like JL is always going to have a big budget (maybe not $300 million.)  The Flash will likely need a larger budget as well... maybe not as much as Aquaman.  You are correct in that WB/DC needs to improve on their stable of writers.  In this debate I'm always be more of a fact guy than speculation.  I'm not going to go as far as "BvS was going to fail" on the concept alone.  Perhaps if they didn't try to combine The Dark Knight Returns with the Death of Superman?  I don't know the answers but maybe DC's writers should be forced to stick to more strict adaptions from the source material... like adapting comic arcs more directly because its seems like the writers (Goyer, Terrio) may be taking too many liberties. I  work in the industry and understand the egos involved.  Sometimes when trying to hard to "make things their own" creative people stray too far away from the source.  Actors, directors, writers, hell in the case even costume designers are want to put their own spin on things understandably.  In the process they go too far... I think that is what happened with Flash costume.


But the large budget didn't show up in the movie. By far I think MOS got the best fighting scene, CGI and costume design. The Kryptonians look much better than Steppenwolf and his buddies. It didn't cost that much. JL was fun but the fight and special effect wasn't that awesome.

I knew BVS was going to fail from the beginning and I was correct. You can't let the most influential heroes fight each other when you got only 1 previous installment. You can't let them fight to create further tension when the first priority was to build up the team. In order to make it, you got to tell "Why did they fight" "How did they resolve it and team up" in 1 movie which would be too much, which is why "Martha" became a meme. And it's going to make the "build up the Justice League" more difficult. Not to say we got 0 solo movie from 2014-2016.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> If Snyder's vision for MoS was more generally accepted instead of being so divisive then WB wouldn't be in the mess they are in. That movie kicked off the DCEU on such a bad note where fans are still talking about what bothered them about it. It is the root of all the problems because it set the tone and look of what they tried to turn the DCEU into, which many fans did not like. Then for some reason they decided to double down on Snyder's vision and do BvS, and that was even more divisive and basically sent WB into panic mode where they felt they had to change things to try and win back favor with the fans but the damage was already done by then. 
> 
> I think Snyder can be a good director under certain circumstances, but he had his opportunity with these movies to get his vision across and it didn't work. He had MoS and BvS to showcase what he saw for the DCEU where WB let him have a lot of freedom to do what he wanted, maybe too much freedom, and that vision just never connected with the amount of fans WB was hoping for. It is WB's fault for continuing with Snyder's vision for a 3rd movie in JL when by that time they clearly were in serious panic mode. They should have gotten someone different to direct it from the start, because by then they knew what Snyder was going to try and do and WB had to have known that it wasn't going to align with how they wanted to course correct the movies.


MOS was fine, it got its pros and cons and the reception was ok. As the start of DCEU it was good enough.

It's normal when the first movie of the trilogy got some unlikable elements, as long as you remove them in the future it's going to be fine. But WB didn't do it, instead BVS further expanded what ppl didn't like and failed.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I liked MOS but I think it suffered from Goyer trying to write a script similar in structure to Batman Begins.  It is understandable WHY they did it.. to prevent the standard origin story but it didn't have the same strength as Batman Begins.  I'm not that heavily invested in the Krypton universe but I also didn't like the aesthetics of their Kryptonian culture.  Again I still enjoyed MOS and didn't have the issues with it that others did.  
> 
> No one really knows right now who OKed BvS.  I'm going to guess Berg or Tsujihara with Snyder.


MoS' story was decent other than the overly "the world fears Superman" tone. It wasn't executed well, too. Both the bus and the tornado scenes were terrible, they got to thank the acting of Costner.

The Kryptonians were probably the best part of the movie other than why didn't they leave the planet makes little sense. It would be much more reasonable if they used Brainiac to deceive the Krypton council like in TAS. Also Lara could have been put into the Phantom Zone for the illegal natural born. By far MoS has the best villains of DCEU, both characterization and action scenes.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I should have said ‘screwed’ as in, WB keeps chopping up his films (Watchmen, Sucker Punch, BvS, JL, to an extent on this last one)...the quality and entertainment of each is up to individual viewers to decide, of course, but if they hired the man to make a movie then they should let him make it. Obviously, if he turns in a product that is too long / too dark / too tonally different, then fine - don’t hire him to make another. 
> 
> He’s an artist like every other director, so if you hire him to do a job then you should be prepared to live with the results, good or bad. If I commission an art piece and I don’t like it? I go to another artist next time. They knew what they were getting with his style after his first couple of movies. In the case of JL, delaying production following BvS’ critical backlash would have been expensive, yes. But more expensive than having to reshoot 30% of the movie? I don’t know about that. 
> 
> That’s what I meant when I said he got screwed. They hired him for multiple jobs, he did his thing on them, but they weren’t willing to live with the results. So snip snip.


Got it.  I liked both versions of BvS enough but am still critical.  I give him all the credit in the world for the good parts of BvS... but I also credit him for the parts I consider bad.  That is why I say that BvS was on Snyder.  JL is on WB ( maybe Tsujihara specifically) because they should have followed their guts and replaced Snyder.  I liked Watchmen as well but also doubt that any incarnation of Sucker Punch would be good.

----------


## Carabas

> Nolan's style wouldn't fit the DCU.  I'm not sure Johns would be the answer as far as hiring any directors.


Nolan at least can do more than one style.

Also, Nolan was asked and he declined.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I don't like the design of Doomsday as well.

He should be nothing but melee fight with no fear, only the desire to kill, but too much of the fight was wasted on shooting vision and energy blast, which wasn't amazing and maybe too similar to Zod/Darkseid.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Nolan at least can do more than one style.
> 
> Also, Nolan was asked and he declined.


I know.  Not denying that,.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I don't like the design of Doomsday as well.
> 
> He should be nothing but melee fight with no fear, only the desire to kill, but too much of the fight was wasted on shooting vision and energy blast, which wasn't amazing and maybe too similar to Zod/Darkseid.


To be fair, this version WAS Zod :P Hence, the heat vision. 

I'll give you the energy blasts though.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Another contributor is also timing.

A Justice League movie now is a really bad idea when you consider that it is perhaps 5-6 years too late. Avengers not only beat them to it, it did so twice, and one of the big money makers in that studio did a pseudo Avengers 3 within a solo film. Said solo film also did better than it's counterpart which tackled similar subject matter. It didn't have to beat Avengers but Justice League didn't have a leg to stand on. It not only missed that moment in history, it failed to get off the ground in a meaningful way. We know how these films are supposed to work, a shared universe is a science now. The growing pains are over and yet from what I hear Justice League came out mediocre to alright. One of those what if? sort of scenarios is applicable here due to those growing pains. We would be far more forgiving in 2011 or 2012 when this sort of thing wasn't really done before. It would gain scoff later like Avengers does, but if the movie is good enough then the stigma wouldn't matter since it was breaking new ground and nobody had a clear idea of how it was supposed to work. 

Justice League came too late and should've waited until the MCU culmination died down. As now you have 20 something films and a guy who resembles your big bad guy who is going to make it to screen first. Comparisons will be made and if Darkseid falls short he will be seen as a poor substitute to the guy who is going to break Earth's mightiest heroes.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Another contributor is also timing.
> 
> A Justice League movie now is a really bad idea when you consider that it is perhaps 5-6 years too late. Avengers not only beat them to it, it did so twice, and one of the big money makers in that studio did a pseudo Avengers 3 within a solo film. Said solo film also did better than it's counterpart which tackled similar subject matter. It didn't have to beat Avengers but Justice League didn't have a leg to stand on. It not only missed that moment in history, it failed to get off the ground in a meaningful way. We know how these films are supposed to work, a shared universe is a science now. The growing pains are over and yet from what I hear Justice League came out mediocre to alright. One of those what if? sort of scenarios is applicable here due to those growing pains. We would be far more forgiving in 2011 or 2012 when this sort of thing wasn't really done before. It would gain scoff later like Avengers does, but if the movie is good enough then the stigma wouldn't matter since it was breaking new ground and nobody had a clear idea of how it was supposed to work. 
> 
> Justice League came too late and should've waited until the MCU culmination died down. As now you have 20 something films and a guy who resembles your big bad guy who is going to make it to screen first. Comparisons will be made and if Darkseid falls short he will be seen as a poor substitute to the guy who is going to break Earth's mightiest heroes.


It depends on the setup. JL got more well known heroes and villains, it could have been a big hit if it was handled well. Obviously WB didn't use it too wisely.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

I don't know what they expected him to say.  Snyder is the one who cast him.  Kind of like how people acted like it was a surprise that Snyder's son thought that his dad's version would be better.

https://heroichollywood.com/ezra-miller-zack-snyder-dc/

----------


## Badou

> MOS was fine, it got its pros and cons and the reception was ok. As the start of DCEU it was good enough.
> 
> It's normal when the first movie of the trilogy got some unlikable elements, as long as you remove them in the future it's going to be fine. But WB didn't do it, instead BVS further expanded what ppl didn't like and failed.


How was it fine? It basically caused the fandom to be split in half where they are still arguing how good/bad the movie was years later. For a first movie that is supposed to kick start your movie universe divisive is not what you want. It is the last thing. It caused them to stumble out of the gate. You want a movie that appeals to the general audience where they can buy into the world and more importantly the character so they feel invested. Then you can take that goodwill you built up in the first movie and can try something more challenging/unexpected in the second if you want. That is what Nolan did with his Batman movies.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> Awesome action scenes+some confusing storytelling and weird dark tone.


Plus some nonsensical characterization. Batman thinks of his dead mother and suddenly all the reasons he had for hating Superman are gone and they are friends (he actually introduces himself as "a friend of your son" when he saves Superman's mom). No true resolution to any of their issues (which I thought were forced in the first place).




> Perhaps if they didn't try to combine The Dark Knight Returns with the Death of Superman?


That's also very puzzling. Why combine two stories so thematically different? Two stories that each one would need a whole movie to fully breathe? And two stories that work better when they take place down the road for both heroes and not so early on?

Marvel really just did simple things. First introduced the characters in solo adventures before the team up, just like it happened in the comics. Did Civil War only after the heroes had some adventures under their belts. And no weird mashups like "Let's do Civil War and the Kree-Skrull War in one film".

----------


## Carabas

> Another contributor is also timing.
> 
> A Justice League movie now is a really bad idea when you consider that it is perhaps 5-6 years too late. Avengers not only beat them to it, it did so twice, and one of the big money makers in that studio did a pseudo Avengers 3 within a solo film...
> 
> Justice League came too late and should've waited until the MCU culmination died down. As now you have 20 something films and a guy who resembles your big bad guy who is going to make it to screen first. Comparisons will be made and if Darkseid falls short he will be seen as a poor substitute to the guy who is going to break Earth's mightiest heroes.


Taking into account that modern superhero movies started around 2000, and that WB have always owned all the characters and have always had the capability of making their own movies, Justice League is more like 12 years too late.

If WB had any sense or capability they could have gotten a DC Cinematic Universe up and running long before Marvel even got into the game. Instead they sat on their ass and then finally released Batman Begins in 2005 when they should have had a bunch of movies out already by then and instead could have been releasing Justice League.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> How was it fine? It basically caused the fandom to be split in half where they are still arguing how good/bad the movie was years later. For a first movie that is supposed to kick start your movie universe divisive is not what you want. It is the last thing. It caused them to stumble out of the gate. You want a movie that appeals to the general audience where they can buy into the world and more importantly the character so they feel invested. Then you can take that goodwill you built up in the first movie and can try something more challenging/unexpected in the second if you want. That is what Nolan did with his Batman movies.


It got some low points but also have probably the best superhero action scenes and awesome special effect. The story was overall decent, the reception and box office was fine.




> Plus some nonsensical characterization. Batman thinks of his dead mother and suddenly all the reasons he had for hating Superman are gone and they are friends (he actually introduces himself as "a friend of your son" when he saves Superman's mom). No true resolution to any of their issues (which I thought were forced in the first place).






 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## XanatosVanBadass

> That's also very puzzling. Why combine two stories so thematically different? Two stories that each one would need a whole movie to fully breathe? And two stories that work better when they take place down the road for both heroes and not so early on?


Not to mention Dark Knight Rises already took many thematic ideas from DKR, plus we already have a very good animated adaption of that story.

----------


## Badou

> It got some low points but also have probably the best superhero action scenes and awesome special effect. The story was overall decent, the reception and box office was fine.


The reception wasn't fine, which is the problem. Half the fandom not liking it isn't what I'd call a a fine reception.

----------


## Jokerz79

> To be fair, this version WAS Zod :P Hence, the heat vision. 
> 
> I'll give you the energy blasts though.


It was created by Lex taking Kryptonian DNA and mixing with it with his own the thing was Nuclear Man 2.0 and it makes sense given Eisenberg's Lex was more Lenny Luthor than any Lex I ever seen.

----------


## Carabas

> It was created by Lex taking Kryptonian DNA and mixing with it with his own the thing was Nuclear Man 2.0 and it makes sense given Eisenberg's Lex was more Lenny Luthor than any Lex I ever seen.


It's the only Luthor I have ever seen who actually did the 'mad' part of mad scientist.

----------


## Jokerz79

> It's the only Luthor I have ever seen who actually did the 'mad' part of mad scientist.


Lyle Talbot's Lex Luthor from Atom Man vs Superman was straight up Mad Scientist down to the White Scientist Jacket. But my favorite Mad Lex was Sherman Howard from the Superboy tv series he could play crazy at times.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If Snyder's vision for MoS was more generally accepted instead of being so divisive then WB wouldn't be in the mess they are in. That movie kicked off the DCEU on such a bad note where fans are still talking about what bothered them about it. It is the root of all the problems because it set the tone and look of what they tried to turn the DCEU into, which many fans did not like. Then for some reason they decided to double down on Snyder's vision and do BvS, and that was even more divisive and basically sent WB into panic mode where they felt they had to change things to try and win back favor with the fans but the damage was already done by then. 
> 
> I think Snyder can be a good director under certain circumstances, but he had his opportunity with these movies to get his vision across and it didn't work. He had MoS and BvS to showcase what he saw for the DCEU where WB let him have a lot of freedom to do what he wanted, maybe too much freedom, and that vision just never connected with the amount of fans WB was hoping for. It is WB's fault for continuing with Snyder's vision for a 3rd movie in JL when by that time they clearly were in serious panic mode. They should have gotten someone different to direct it from the start, because by then they knew what Snyder was going to try and do and WB had to have known that it wasn't going to align with how they wanted to course correct the movies.


The thing is that it was WB's vision, that's why they hired Zack. They saw TDK Trilogy, and thought that should be the direction for their next set of DC movies. Zack's sensibilities fit. 

I personally give MoS an 8-8.5/10. Theres missteps in the storytelling, but it's more than good enough. 

There's nothing wrong with MoS, but the tone, and direction, was not widely accepted. It was more to do with how Superman "should" be represented.

Honestly, its looking like Superman is lose-lose. I think that's why Shazam is being pushed.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I know.  Not denying that,.


Can Nolan do more that one style?

----------


## Carabas

> Lyle Talbot's Lex Luthor from Atom Man vs Superman was straight up Mad Scientist down to the White Scientist Jacket. But my favorite Mad Lex was Sherman Howard from the Superboy tv series he could play crazy at times.


I have not seen Atom Man vs Superman. Or been aware of its existence for that matter.

The Superboy series sadly never got aired over here.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I have not seen Atom Man vs Superman. Or been aware of its existence for that matter.
> 
> The Superboy series sadly never got aired over here.


The Atom Man vs Superman was a sequel serial to Kirk Alyn's original made in 1950 and it stars Kirk Alyn and Noel Neill.

----------


## ShaggyB

One post removed

I get that everyone can get heated on these type of discussions, but lets not call each other dumb for having an opinion. 

If you feel its wrong, spend time to explain why without insulting the intelligence of the person you are talking to.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Marvel really just did simple things. First introduced the characters in solo adventures before the team up, just like it happened in the comics. Did Civil War only after the heroes had some adventures under their belts. And no weird mashups like "Let's do Civil War and the Kree-Skrull War in one film".


The Arrowverse did the same thing with Crisis on Earth-X. Marvel gets it. The people who make the DC TV shows get it.  Only the DC movie division is clueless.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#6458ce561e0f

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## Slowpokeking

> The Arrowverse did the same thing with Crisis on Earth-X. Marvel gets it. The people who make the DC TV shows get it.  Only the DC movie division is clueless.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#6458ce561e0f


More accurately, WB executives didn't know it.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> But my favorite Mad Lex was Sherman Howard from the Superboy tv series he could play crazy at times.


Ah, childhood memories! That series isn't as good as I remembered it as a kid but Howard's Luthor was one of its most memorable parts.

----------


## Troian

If the Avengers with characters that were barely known until the movies came could make 623 domestically, then say instead there was no MCU and instead we got a buildup of Superman, Batman and Green Lantern then the Justice League in 2012/2013. They could have made much more. The Dceu made an opening day of over 60 mil on there second and third tries. Just look at the potential WW showed.  

But here we are. A bunch of wasted potential and polarizing movies later. I'm not expecting Aquaman to be complete garbage but I don't think we'll hear praises like from Logan, Thor or Wonder Woman.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Fast forward to around 20 minutes.  He is pissed!

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## ultrarider7

They should just kill the universe, I love what they have done but the majority don't. The JLA film is barely making money which is mind blowing, they screwed up. Complete the WW trilogy and see how it goes with the Aquaman and Captain Marvel films, if they have success then give those two characters a trilogy too but when it comes to a shared universe? It's done, it's death for now. If only WB would have done it first (and they had all the time in the world) then they wouldn't be in this situation, now no matter what they do, it's going to get compared to the MCU films. If people want the DCEU to die so much then by all means let them have what they want, kill it and wait until the MCU films lose their "magic", Feige and co. can say all they want about how it can go on forever, it won't. Nothing last forever. When the time comes and people are finally over themselves with how these characters should or shouldn't be portrayed, make the shared universe again.

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## Slowpokeking

> They should just kill the universe, I love what they have done but the majority don't. The JLA film is barely making money which is mind blowing, they screwed up. Complete the WW trilogy and see how it goes with the Aquaman and Captain Marvel films, if they have success then give those two characters a trilogy too but when it comes to a shared universe? It's done, it's death for now. If only WB would have done it first (and they had all the time in the world) then they wouldn't be in this situation, now no matter what they do, it's going to get compared to the MCU films. If people want the DCEU to die so much then by all means let them have what they want, kill it and wait until the MCU films lose their "magic", Feige and co. can say all they want about how it can go on forever, it won't. Nothing last forever. When the time comes and people are finally over themselves with how these characters should or shouldn't be portrayed, make the shared universe again.


It's going to hurt DC more if you kill it.

The overall cast is good, they are on the right track, the worst idea is to kill it now.

----------


## Johnny

Yeah, shutting down the DCEU won't do anything. The audience loves the cast, that's just not enough cause they want a good film, too. WW proved people are more than willing to give WB the benefit of the doubt whenever they actually happen to handle things the right way.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I really really hope Faora/Antje Traue could come back and have a fight against WW.

----------


## Robotman

They aren’t going to shut the DCEU down or reboot but the shared universe concept is shelved for now. There will just be solo flicks for the foreseeable future. Which is funny because this was WB’s original plan when they wanted to do Justice League: Mortal. They were going to do the team up and then focus on the solo spin off films.
Maybe in another 10 years we can get Justice League 2 if the superhero movie craze hasn’t died off. If (and it’s a huge IF) they can make Aquaman, Shazam, and Deathstroke fan favorites the way Marvel has with their mid tier characters maybe they can generate enough buzz for an Infinte War-like film. Maybe do a proper Crisis.

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## Soubhagya

> Yeah, shutting down the DCEU won't do anything. The audience loves the cast, that's just not enough cause they want a good film, too. WW proved people are more than willing to give WB the benefit of the doubt whenever they actually happen to handle things the right way.


If audiences are loving the cast why aren't they coming? I can't ever imagine that a Justice League film. I mean Justice League film with some of the greatest and most popular heroes of all time can't earn more then 100 million dollars in the opening weekend. Can you imagine a film with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman get such dismal numbers? So, 93 million dollars equivalent people came to watch in the opening weekend. Its loud and clear. People don't love the cast. Except for Gal Gadot i guess. But man even she couldn't help the film breach a 100 million. Its saddening. But the people have made it clear.

----------


## Johnny

> If audiences are loving the cast why aren't they coming? I can't ever imagine that a Justice League film. I mean Justice League film with some of the greatest and most popular heroes of all time can't earn more then 100 million dollars in the opening weekend. Can you imagine a film with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman get such dismal numbers? So, 93 million dollars equivalent people came to watch in the opening weekend. Its loud and clear. People don't love the cast. Except for Gal Gadot i guess. But man even she couldn't help the film breach a 100 million. Its saddening. But the people have made it clear.


There's a difference between being soured on WB and not liking the cast. Everyone knew about the chaos behind the scenes during JL's entire production, combine that with the critical failures of BvS and SS, where people were once again fully aware of how WB ended up handling both productions, then finally add JL's critical reception and you can see why people chose not to show up for it. They can love the cast but they are not idiots and can only be forgiving for so long if you keep jerking them around over and over again. It's the same reason I saw the movie only once. I planned to go see it again the following weekend but I chose not to because I saw the studio messed up once again. I'm not going to keep throwing my money at them just because I'm a DC fan and I love the cast. It doesn't mean I want them to shut down the DCEU, they absolutely shouldn't, I just wish for them to stop making these bone-headed decisions. If they start making consistently good movies and they consistently keep flopping, that would be an indication that the brand could be damaged beyond repair.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> There's a difference between being soured on WB and not liking the cast. Everyone knew about the chaos behind the scenes during JL's entire production, combine that with the critical failures of BvS and SS, where people were once again fully aware of how WB ended up handling both productions, then finally add JL's critical reception and you can see why people chose not to show up for it. They can love the cast but they are not idiots and can only be forgiving for so long if you keep jerking them around over and over again. It's the same reason I saw the movie only once. I planned to go see it again the following weekend but I chose not to because I saw the studio messed up once again. I'm not going to keep throwing my money at them just because I'm a DC fan and I love the cast.


Actually the audience score was ok, the movie itself wasn't that bad really.

----------


## Soubhagya

> There's a difference between being soured on WB and not liking the cast. Everyone knew about the chaos behind the scenes during JL's entire production, combine that with the critical failures of BvS and SS, where people were once again fully aware of how WB ended up handling both productions, then finally add JL's critical reception and you can see why people chose not to show up for it. They can love the cast but they are not idiots and can only be forgiving for so long if you keep jerking them around over and over again.


People in general don't know and don't care for such things. The online fan community knows about this. Most of the people wouldn't even know about Snyder and Whedon issues. Do people in general remember the names of directors unless they are some big names like Nolan?




> Actually the audience score was ok, the movie itself wasn't that bad really.


Its Cinemascore is B+. The same as Suicide Squad. The same as Fifty Shades Darker. It was brought to the second spot by Coco in its second weekend. It earned 40 million dollars in its second weekend. In comparison WW, Ragnarok and Homecoming each earned about 55 million dollars and more. This in Thanksgiving weekend with hardly any competition.

I don't want to say this. Its heartbreaking. But its the truth.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> People in general don't know and don't care for such things. The online fan community knows about this. Most of the people wouldn't even know about Snyder and Whedon issues. Do people in general remember the names of directors unless they are some big names like Nolan?


But many of them went to see BVS...

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> If audiences are loving the cast why aren't they coming? I can't ever imagine that a Justice League film. I mean Justice League film with some of the greatest and most popular heroes of all time can't earn more then 100 million dollars in the opening weekend. Can you imagine a film with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman get such dismal numbers?


You only have to look as far as BvS's reception to know why.  You can kid yourself about BvS's real reception by citing certain numbers and ignoring others.  Keeping the same director/writer/producer team on JL as BvS is the biggest factor of all. People saw Snyder's BvS.  They weren't wiling to see his JL.  More were willing to see Jenkins' WW.    How can anyone think Snyder's association had nothing to do with it?  The audiences made it clear that they didn't care enough to pay for Snyder's sequel to BvS.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> But many of them went to see BVS...



They did... and decided that they didn't want to see Snyder's version of those characters afterwards.  Yet some would have you believe that it is the characters and not possibly Snyder.  If that were the case WW wouldn't have sold better opening weekend.

----------


## Soubhagya

> You only have to look as far as BvS's reception to know why.  You can kid yourself about BvS's real reception by citing certain numbers and ignoring others.  Keeping the same director/writer/producer team on JL as BvS is the biggest factor of all. People saw Snyder's BvS.  They weren't wiling to see his JL.  More were willing to see Jenkins' WW.    How can anyone not think Snyder's association had nothing to do with it?  The audiences made it clear that they didn't care enough to pay for Snyder's sequel to BvS.


WW is almost an entirely different thing. One thing is that Wonder Woman is just as a big name as Batman and Superman. People have been waiting to see her onscreen for years. So, she got 103 million dollars opening. That's reasonable. It got a boost by its RT score. Then it was a wonderful film with great WOM. Cinemascore of A is nothing to scoff at. Thus, it had excellent legs and a great multipiler. Yes, Snyder's associated name might be a factor. At least a large section of fans who are fans of superhero films, stayed away from it. But its possible that we are overestimating Snyder's name's influence. The film was a sequel to BvS. I think that's what kept the people away.

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## Slowpokeking

> They did... and decided that they didn't want to see Snyder's version of those characters afterwards.  Yet some would have you believe that it is the characters and not possibly Snyder.  If that were the case WW wouldn't have sold better opening weekend.


Yes, that's what I mean.

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## Soubhagya

> Fast forward to around 20 minutes.  He is pissed!


Oh man if it is the truth any fan would be angry. I would be really angry if this is true. Superman's upper lip is becoming a meme. The bad cg is being derided in all circles. A few more months would have helped definitely. Someone in this position can't be engaged in this kind of practice. People wait for years to see these films.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> WW is almost an entirely different thing. One thing is that Wonder Woman is just as a big name as Batman and Superman. People have been waiting to see her onscreen for years. So, she got 103 million dollars opening. That's reasonable. It got a boost by its RT score. Then it was a wonderful film with great WOM. Cinemascore of A is nothing to scoff at. Thus, it had excellent legs and a great multipiler. Yes, Snyder's associated name might be a factor. At least a large section of fans who are fans of superhero films, stayed away from it. But its possible that we are overestimating Snyder's name's influence. The film was a sequel to BvS. I think that's what kept the people away.


That is my point Snyder damaged the brand.  Wonder Woman was in JL.  If it was promoted as directed by a different director things would have likely been better.  I stated earlier that at best JL would score at 65-70% based on his critical history and reputation.  It couldn't even get that.

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## FlashEarthOne

This isn't surprising...
https://heroichollywood.com/justice-...ke-signatures/

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## Soubhagya

> This isn't surprising...
> https://heroichollywood.com/justice-...ke-signatures/


Which again proves that Snyder is an excellent director. From my observation among the  fans of Snyder's DCEU films some are apologists. They are unable to accept the fact that people in general don't like DC's films. That the films have faults. There's another section who actually love Snyder's DCEU films. And i can see the kind of love given by these fans. Art is by nature subjective. Such fans are in love with these films for real. And its really good. That shall be celebrated rather then derided. 

However its pretty much proven that Snyder's films don't work for everybody. Critics and audience in general don't like them. Which is fine too. As art is subjective. While i am satisfied with JL, at times i feel its unfair that Snyder's actual fans were deprived of a proper trilogy. The film failed anyway. Rather fail giving the fans a proper closure. Its a bit unfair from my part. They thought that by making such changes they would succeed. But who can actually predict the future?

----------


## Jon-El

I wrote this in another thread. The DC characters really needed solo films.  I watched the Avengers trailer & got chills. I'd consider myself more of a DC fan. Superman & Batman are my favorites. However, I was more excited watching the Avengers trailer than at any point during the JL movie. People have watched each of the Marvel characters for ten years!  Seeing them all come together has impact.  It's not about which characters are better.  It's about planning & execution. Having the Justice League after only a few movies and relying on it to introduce 3 new characters wasn't the best idea.  I'm more invested in the Marvel heroes because I've watched them in quite a few adventures.  I'd never have dreamed I'd be more invested in Marvel characters than DC characters.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Ah, childhood memories! That series isn't as good as I remembered it as a kid but Howard's Luthor was one of its most memorable parts.


The show doesn't hold up well it was good for what it was at the time and Sherman Howard's Lex and Michael J. Pollard as Mr. Mxyzptlk were highlights for me though.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Oh man if it is the truth any fan would be angry. I would be really angry if this is true. Superman's upper lip is becoming a meme. The bad cg is being derided in all circles. A few more months would have helped definitely. Someone in this position can't be engaged in this kind of practice. People wait for years to see these films.


I've said this once before but I felt the film should had been delayed till mid August I know it's a long time and going 3 comic-cons without the film would be bad but it would give them time to clean up the effects and get all the kinks out and I chose mid August because it's the earliest part of 2018 with no Major Franchise films basically the last two weeks of August and September of next year are the only weeks with no major releases next year is going to nuts. There is DC/WB's Aquaman and 7 Marvel related films (Black Panther, Avengers Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Deadpool 2, New Mutants, X-Men Dark Phoenix, and Venom)  Han Solo, 2 Pixar Films (Sequels to Wreck it Ralph and Incredibles), Marry Poppins, Predator, Jurassic World the Fallen Kingdom, Ready Player One, Pacific Rim 2, Horror Franchise Films (Halloween, Strangers Sequel, The Nun, an Insidious film), Mission Impossible 6, Bumblebee, Maze Runner Final Film, New Grinch Film, a Sonic the Hedge Hog Film, and various other potential franchise makers.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I wrote this in another thread. The DC characters really needed solo films.  I watched the Avengers trailer & got chills. I'd consider myself more of a DC fan. Superman & Batman are my favorites. However, I was more excited watching the Avengers trailer than at any point during the JL movie. People have watched each of the Marvel characters for ten years!  Seeing them all come together has impact.  It's not about which characters are better.  It's about planning & execution. Having the Justice League after only a few movies and relying on it to introduce 3 new characters wasn't the best idea.  I'm more invested in the Marvel heroes because I've watched them in quite a few adventures.  I'd never have dreamed I'd be more invested in Marvel characters than DC characters.


A similar experience and a similar opinion. Avengers IW trailer is giving me goosebumps. I don't even read Marvel comics except for two books. And its like i know and love each of them. I loved the JL film. Much more then most people. But i can see how seeing people whom you know and love coming together is an entirely different experience then seeing people whom you know vaguely coming together.





> I've said this once before but I felt the film should had been delayed till mid August I know it's a long time and going 3 comic-cons without the film would be bad but it would give them time to clean up the effects and get all the kinks out and I chose mid August because it's the earliest part of 2018 with no Major Franchise films basically the last two weeks of August and September of next year are the only weeks with no major releases next year is going to nuts. There is DC/WB's Aquaman and 7 Marvel related films (Black Panther, Avengers Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Deadpool 2, New Mutants, X-Men Dark Phoenix, and Venom)  Han Solo, 2 Pixar Films (Sequels to Wreck it Ralph and Incredibles), Marry Poppins, Predator, Jurassic World the Fallen Kingdom, Ready Player One, Pacific Rim 2, Horror Franchise Films (Halloween, Strangers Sequel, The Nun, an Insidious film), Mission Impossible 6, Bumblebee, Maze Runner Final Film, New Grinch Film, a Sonic the Hedge Hog Film, and various other potential franchise makers.


I don't know the exact dates. Could they have released in two or three weeks before Infinity War? I don't think it would have affected them much. By the third week the film generally earns most of its money at the BO.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Admitting defeat would be either giving up making superhero films or giving up efforts to keep the films interconnected-The DC Extended Universe. At this point both are possible. I won't be surprised if Aquaman is the last superhero film that WB makes. They wanted to focus on DC after Harry Potter was ending. Now they have Fantastic Beasts. They are becoming successful in other films. Why keep trying making superhero films if these are not working. JL can loose money. A film with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman can loose money. What kind of crazy world are we living in! A Justice League film is going to earn less then Suicide Squad. Less then Deadpool. Its shocking.
> 
> Aquaman has been shot. So,this is sure. I am not sure about anything else. WW 2 is something i can bet on. But i am not 100 percent sure about it. Who knows they might pull the plug. Aquaman's failure might mean the last nail in the coffin. That's defeat.
> 
> There is another defeat. Give up the extended part of DCEU. No more interconnectedness. Just as Deadpool and X-Men. Each films are in separate universes of their own. That would be admitting defeat. If Aquaman succeeds and it is a standalone with no connection to DCEU as a whole, they may forego the DCEU altogether. They would make superhero films. But one can't hope to see Flash interacting with Green Lantern.
> 
> If they reboot i see it as 'we have lost the battle but not the war'. Focus on standalone films with only hints to the existence of a wider universe. If they succeed, DCEU is back on track. The train has derailed after JL. If JL can't earn 100 million in opening weekend it is something big. One can't handwaive it and go ahead just as planned.
> 
> Cast is the best thing we got from these films. But reboot is a good option to consider.


A full on reboot, replacing the actors and everything would seem like throwing in the towel and I honestly don't think audiences would respond well. They'd probably think WB and DC didn't even know what they were doing, especially if the "rebooted" movies came *right after* this line of movies. I could only see it working if they did it the same way the X-Men did it with Days of Future Past: keep the same cast, but change around only a few things about the continuity.

But, then again, the same effect would probably be achieved by simply *not* addressing some of the things that happened in the recent films. They could, for example, pretend that *this* Justice League was a one-time thing and in any potential sequel, say their original "team up" didn't really work out. There could even be some meta commentary in there. Maybe that way, we could finally get Cyborg back with the Titans and Martian Manhunter on the JLA again.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Which again proves that Snyder is an excellent director. From my observation among the  fans of Snyder's DCEU films some are apologists. They are unable to accept the fact that people in general don't like DC's films. That the films have faults. There's another section who actually love Snyder's DCEU films. And i can see the kind of love given by these fans. Art is by nature subjective. Such fans are in love with these films for real. And its really good. That shall be celebrated rather then derided.


It doesn't prove that at all,  It proves that he has a very vocal minority following who are trying to make themselves out to be more numerous than they actually are.

----------


## inisideguy

As a fan I don't see the big deal. You have an aqua man movie coming out next year. Wonder Woman after that. Maybe some more I don't know. But DC will always be around in movie form one way or another. Probably not to MCU levels but thats ok by me.  I still love DC stuff. There is so much stuff out there on TV and more coming this whole thing doesn't really bother me.

----------


## Soubhagya

> A full on reboot, replacing the actors and everything would seem like throwing in the towel and I honestly don't think audiences would respond well. They'd probably think WB and DC didn't even know what they were doing, especially if the "rebooted" movies came *right after* this line of movies. I could only see it working if they did it the same way the X-Men did it with Days of Future Past: keep the same cast, but change around only a few things about the continuity.
> 
> But, then again, the same effect would probably be achieved by simply *not* addressing some of the things that happened in the recent films. They could, for example, pretend that *this* Justice League was a one-time thing and in any potential sequel, say their original "team up" didn't really work out. There could even be some meta commentary in there. Maybe that way, we could finally get Cyborg back with the Titans and Martian Manhunter on the JLA again.


Imo audiences will do just fine. They are familiar with the concept of reboots. There are many success stories with reboots. Spider-man, Batman even Hulk are wonderful examples. Superman was fine with Man of Steel. A- Cinemascore, 55% RT and 668 million worldwide may not be ideal but its still moderately good. It was the second highest earning origin film at that time. 

X-Men films don't care for continuity. Days of Future Past may appear like continuity clean up. But the story is among the most acclaimed stories of X-Men.They are always on the lookout to adapt acclaimed stories. They are making Phoenix next year. X-2, Last Stand, Logan, The Wolverine are all partial adaptations. The continuity of X-Men still does not make sense. 

X-Men series made some bad films. Last Stand, Wolverine Origins come to mind. But they had a goodwill with X-Men and X-Men 2. Two films acclaimed by both critics and audiences. They bounced back from a slump. I am not sure DC can do so. Only WW is a film acclaimed by both audiences and critics. If they don't reboot its highly possible that they may fail or possibly give up films with some continuity. Both are undesirable to me. Avengers IW is blowing people's minds because people love each of them whether the person be Spider-man or Thor or Iron Man. DC can have such levels of success if the characters are loved by the people. Just imagine a Superman, a Batman, a Green Lantern, each of them having films loved both critically and by audiences. Then sky is the limit. DC could make any film. Any film then. They could make a film on Doom Patrol and people will be eating out of their hands.




> As a fan I don't see the big deal. You have an aqua man movie coming out next year. Wonder Woman after that. Maybe some more I don't know. But DC will always be around in movie form one way or another. Probably not to MCU levels but thats ok by me.  I still love DC stuff. There is so much stuff out there on TV and more coming this whole thing doesn't really bother me.


It bothers me. I want a thriving and a successful DCEU. At a time when Ant Man is getting a sequel there is no plan for Green Lantern. TV is not as big a deal as the big screen. I want the next generation to love DC characters just as i do. I see my younger brother who is watching every single Marvel film which has come out in preparation of IW. WB is sitting over a veritable goldmine of characters. But a lot of them won't be getting a film at all. As a Superman fan i am pained to see that i won't be seeing Superman for years.

----------


## inisideguy

> Imo audiences will do just fine. They are familiar with the concept of reboots. There are many success stories with reboots. Spider-man, Batman even Hulk are wonderful examples. Superman was fine with Man of Steel. A- Cinemascore, 55% RT and 668 million worldwide may not be ideal but its still moderately good. It was the second highest earning origin film at that time. 
> 
> X-Men films don't care for continuity. Days of Future Past may appear like continuity clean up. But the story is among the most acclaimed stories of X-Men.They are always on the lookout to adapt acclaimed stories. They are making Phoenix next year. X-2, Last Stand, Logan, The Wolverine are all partial adaptations. The continuity of X-Men still does not make sense. 
> 
> X-Men series made some bad films. Last Stand, Wolverine Origins come to mind. But they had a goodwill with X-Men and X-Men 2. Two films acclaimed by both critics and audiences. They bounced back from a slump. I am not sure DC can do so. Only WW is a film acclaimed by both audiences and critics. If they don't reboot its highly possible that they may fail or possibly give up films with some continuity. Both are undesirable to me. Avengers IW is blowing people's minds because people love each of them whether the person be Spider-man or Thor or Iron Man. DC can have such levels of success if the characters are loved by the people. Just imagine a Superman, a Batman, a Green Lantern, each of them having films loved both critically and by audiences. Then sky is the limit. DC could make any film. Any film then. They could make a film on Doom Patrol and people will be eating out of their hands.
> 
> 
> 
> It bothers me. I want a thriving and a successful DCEU. At a time when Ant Man is getting a sequel there is no plan for Green Lantern. TV is not as big a deal as the big screen. I want the next generation to love DC characters just as i do. I see my younger brother who is watching every single Marvel film which has come out in preparation of IW. WB is sitting over a veritable goldmine of characters. But a lot of them won't be getting a film at all. As a Superman fan i am pained to see that i won't be seeing Superman for years.


 Yea I guess. But I don't really look at it that way. If I'm a baseball or soccer fan I don't really go nuts cause the NFL gets much better ratings. It is what it is. The DC characters will always be here. There will be many more movies and tv shows and cartoons and comics.

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## Soubhagya

> Yea I guess. But I don't really look at it that way. If I'm a baseball or soccer fan I don't really go nuts cause the NFL gets much better ratings. It is what it is. The DC characters will always be here. There will be many more movies and tv shows and cartoons and comics.


Which is okay. Its fine to look at it in this way. I however am not satisfied. There's so much potential. Some poster said the story is reversed. The underdog is winning and the big guy is loosing. I simply want a healthy and a successful DCEU. They can still start from scratch and ten years later people would be going nuts for Justice League and eagerly waiting for the  Static movie just as they are waiting for Black Panther. The world is big enough for both DC and Marvel.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Imo audiences will do just fine. They are familiar with the concept of reboots. There are many success stories with reboots. Spider-man, Batman even Hulk are wonderful examples. Superman was fine with Man of Steel. A- Cinemascore, 55% RT and 668 million worldwide may not be ideal but its still moderately good. It was the second highest earning origin film at that time. 
> 
> X-Men films don't care for continuity. Days of Future Past may appear like continuity clean up. But the story is among the most acclaimed stories of X-Men.They are always on the lookout to adapt acclaimed stories. They are making Phoenix next year. X-2, Last Stand, Logan, The Wolverine are all partial adaptations. The continuity of X-Men still does not make sense. 
> 
> X-Men series made some bad films. Last Stand, Wolverine Origins come to mind. But they had a goodwill with X-Men and X-Men 2. Two films acclaimed by both critics and audiences. They bounced back from a slump. I am not sure DC can do so. Only WW is a film acclaimed by both audiences and critics. If they don't reboot its highly possible that they may fail or possibly give up films with some continuity. Both are undesirable to me. Avengers IW is blowing people's minds because people love each of them whether the person be Spider-man or Thor or Iron Man. DC can never have such levels of success if the characters are loved by the people. Just imagine a Superman, a Batman, a Green Lantern, each of them having films loved both critically and by audiences. Sky is the limit. DC could make any film. Any film then. They could make a film on Doom Patrol and people will be eating out of their hands.
> 
> 
> 
> It bothers me. I want a thriving and successful DCEU. At a time when Ant Man is getting a sequel there is no plan for Green Lantern. TV is not as big a deal as the big screen. I want the next generation to love DC characters just as i do.


The Spider-Man reboots didn't come as quickly as people think. The Amazing line of movies came 5 years after they'd finished up the Raimi trilogy and then Homecoming didn't come until 3 years after the Amazing movies wrapped up. But that's besides the point. At no point did Sony attempt to sell Andrew Garfield as being in the MCU. There was no movie where he met up with Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man and then all of a sudden they pulled the plug on Garfield and introduced Holland like "lol, never mind that other guy, here's the real Spider-Man of our Marvel cinematic universe." That is essentially the equivalent of replacing Cavill or Momoa at this point and then putting a new actor alongside Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman in the next Justice League movie, especially when the former was the face that launched the DC cinematic effort. That would just make WB seem like they literally had no clue and were just throwing stuff against the wall.

In other words, its too late to try and sell these guys as being in their own self-contained universes. That ship sailed as soon as BvS was released.

The X-Men may have "cleaned up" their continuity and changed it around, but the same actors were still in the same roles. Halle Berry is still adult Storm, James Marsden is still adult Cyclops, Patrick Stewart is still the guy who portrayed old Professor X, etc.

DC and WB just need to focus on making better movies. Simple as that. If they can pull another Wonder Woman, they'll be back on track, despite JL's underwhelming performance. Plus, they've already put too much into this line of movies. Aquaman is done filming, they already have directors attached for Shazam, Nightwing, Suicide Squad 2, and Margot Robbie just revealed that she's EPing a Harley Quinn solo movie. As much as I wish it wasn't the case, this is the continuity we're stuck with. The only option is to *right* the ship, not sink it.

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## inisideguy

> Which is okay. Its fine to look at it in this way. I however am not satisfied. There's so much potential. Some poster said the story is reversed. The underdog is winning and the big guy is loosing. I simply want a healthy and a successful DCEU. They can still start from scratch and ten years later people would be going nuts for Justice League and eagerly waiting for the  Static movie just as they are waiting for Black Panther. The world is big enough for both DC and Marvel.


 I don't know about the underdog winning. I guess you could look at it that way if this was a competition.  People get wrapped up in this a little to much.  If you mean the underdog winning in the movie verse I guess, but in reality with a few exceptions Marvel has dominated the comics market in one form or the other for 40 years probably. They were the underdogs in the 60s when they first started. In the comic book world they haven't been underdogs in 50 years.  Sure DC probably has the two biggest ICONS in comics both of which has had their ups and downs over the years.  Can WB do better with their DC properties? In the movies yes of course.  Is it the end of times? Yea no.

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## Soubhagya

> I don't know about the underdog winning. I guess you could look at it that way if this was a competition.  People get wrapped up in this a little to much.  If you mean the underdog winning in the movie verse I guess, but in reality with a few exceptions Marvel has dominated the comics market in one form or the other for 40 years probably. They were the underdogs in the 60s when they first started. In the comic book world they haven't been underdogs in 50 years.  Sure DC probably has the two biggest ICONS in comics both of which has had their ups and downs over the years.  Can WB do better with their DC properties? In the movies yes of course.  Is it the end of times? Yea no.


Underdogs from the movie side. When the began they did not have Spider-Man. They did not have X-Men. They started with B-list characters. Its not about winning per se. I love Marvel films. I am so happy with their success. And want them to continue being successful and reach more heights.

I just wish DC makes acclaimed films. I love DCEU's concept. Its like watching the comics that i read come alive onscreen. Flash racing Superman. The villains forming their Legion of Doom. They may simply make films like 1978 to 2013. Each film in its own continuity and own universe. I am not excited with something like that.

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## golgi

All three of Snyder's films have been critically bad. The only dceu movie that was critically acclaimed is wonder woman. Now, that Snyder is gone, I'm pretty sure dceu can get back on track. So far, wb has some awesome talent directing their movies and Patty Jenkins is coming back.

I actually liked MOS and JL, btw.

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## Lokimaru

Marvel poisoned the well. They got people thinking you needed to introduce characters in individual films just to tell an ensemble movie while also releasing shit like Guardians where all the main characters meet for the first time. They set up the rules then immediately broke them and no one said a damn thing about it cause funny yet they hold DC to those arbitrary rules. BvS did the Standard DC movie trope of adding Villains to the second movie whilst introducing a new Hero. Batsy was one of the Villains of BvS along with Luthor so how is that any different then Catwoman and Penguin in Batman Returns or Two-Face and Riddler in Batman Forever? Wonder Woman was the New Hero introduced like Robin in Forever. Bats does a Face Turn cause Martha :Stick Out Tongue:  so Lex added Doomday. Standard DC movie story telling if you break it down. Hell even Begins had Scarecrow and Ras. Yet people lost there shit, you can't introduce heroes with out stand alone movies!!!

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## Soubhagya

> Marvel poisoned the well. They got people thinking you needed to introduce characters in individual films just to tell an ensemble movie while also releasing shit like Guardians where all the main characters meet for the first time. They set up the rules then immediately broke them and no one said a damn thing about it cause funny yet they hold DC to those arbitrary rules. BvS did the Standard DC movie trope of adding Villains to the second movie whilst introducing a new Hero. Batsy was one of the Villains of BvS along with Luthor so how is that any different then Catwoman and Penguin in Batman Returns or Two-Face and Riddler in Batman Forever? Wonder Woman was the New Hero introduced like Robin in Forever. Bats does a Face Turn cause Martha so Lex added Doomday. Standard DC movie story telling if you break it down. Hell even Begins had Scarecrow and Ras. Yet people lost there shit, you can't introduce heroes with out stand alone movies!!!


Had DC films been successful there would be no complaints. Because it did not work out fans are giving their opinions. I think it was a good idea to start differently. I was a bit skeptical as there was a success story right in front of them. But i thought it would be fine. I am proven wrong. Guardians is a different beast. Its a team. Not a team up. It is not expected that someone like Drax would lead his own film. Justice League maybe a team. But in reality its a team up. Made up of individual franchises. 

If the film failed each of the potential franchises Flash, Aquaman risk failing. However, if they go in the reverse manner one franchise can pick the slack of the other. Hulk was a dissapointment. But others were okay to good. Finally Hulk was among the highlights of Avengers.

In the end these are opinions. Had DC been successful no one would complain.

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## Confuzzled

You don't need to introduce all heroes in standalone films and that argument was always wacky like almost all of the uber MCU worshipper arguments. 

Having said that, the movies leading up to JL and JL itself could have been so much stronger individually (not counting Wonder Woman). Even if we had a more universally beloved Superman movie, a solid World's Finest movie, then Wonder Woman, and then immediately gone to Justice League, the results would have been so much better.

The DCEU did not have to ape the MCU formula. But they should have perfected their own formula.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Marvel poisoned the well. They got people thinking you needed to introduce characters in individual films just to tell an ensemble movie while also releasing shit like Guardians where all the main characters meet for the first time. They set up the rules then immediately broke them and no one said a damn thing about it cause funny yet they hold DC to those arbitrary rules. BvS did the Standard DC movie trope of adding Villains to the second movie whilst introducing a new Hero. Batsy was one of the Villains of BvS along with Luthor so how is that any different then Catwoman and Penguin in Batman Returns or Two-Face and Riddler in Batman Forever? Wonder Woman was the New Hero introduced like Robin in Forever. Bats does a Face Turn cause Martha so Lex added Doomday. Standard DC movie story telling if you break it down. Hell even Begins had Scarecrow and Ras. Yet people lost there shit, you can't introduce heroes with out stand alone movies!!!


Not saying Marvel is absolutely perfect with no flaws, but:

1) The Guardians were never sold as the flagship team of the MCU. If you're going to hype up the Justice League as this epic team up of the world's greatest heroes, well then you need to show why these heroes are so great in the first place. What's a good way to do that? Standalone movies. Of course, even Avengers was the first time we were introduced to Black Widow and got a full showcase of Hawkeye, but the big guns? They'd been taken care of. For the JL on the other hand, they'd only really taken care of Superman and Wonder Woman. Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg are just supposed to...be there.

2) The characters in the Guardians don't really have separate mythologies that deserve focus. GotG is basically a showcase for Marvel cosmic characters. Plus, being part of the Guardians was pretty much a defining aspect of the likes of Star-Lord and Rocket for years. On the other hand, Iron Man, Thor, Cap, and Hulk all had separate mythologies that needed to be told in order to show how they fit into the larger Marvel universe.

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## Jokerz79

The general public only care about the Trinity. No cared about the Avengers I the general public before their MCU films and seeing the characters unite was a big thing. With DC the only characters the public knew were the Trinity and WB blew their load in BvS most of the public didn't care about Batman and Wonder Woman meeting Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg now perhaps if they had solo films they would had.

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## Slowpokeking

> All three of Snyder's films have been critically bad. The only dceu movie that was critically acclaimed is wonder woman. Now, that Snyder is gone, I'm pretty sure dceu can get back on track. So far, wb has some awesome talent directing their movies and Patty Jenkins is coming back.
> 
> I actually liked MOS and JL, btw.


MoS' reception was ok.

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## mace11

> JL got more well known heroes and villains,


I don't think this is the case anymore these days.

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## Soubhagya

> The Spider-Man reboots didn't come as quickly as people think. The Amazing line of movies came 5 years after they'd finished up the Raimi trilogy and then Homecoming didn't come until 3 years after the Amazing movies wrapped up. But that's besides the point. At no point did Sony attempt to sell Andrew Garfield as being in the MCU. There was no movie where he met up with Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man and then all of a sudden they pulled the plug on Garfield and introduced Holland like "lol, never mind that other guy, here's the real Spider-Man of our Marvel cinematic universe." That is essentially* the equivalent of replacing Cavill or Momoa at this point and then putting a new actor alongside Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman in the next Justice League movie,* especially when the former was the face that launched the DC cinematic effort. That *would just make WB seem like they literally had no clue and were just throwing stuff against the wall.*
> 
> *In other words, its too late to try and sell these guys as being in their own self-contained universes. That ship sailed as soon as BvS was released.*
> 
> The X-Men may have "cleaned up" their continuity and changed it around, but the same actors were still in the same roles. Halle Berry is still adult Storm, James Marsden is still adult Cyclops, Patrick Stewart is still the guy who portrayed old Professor X, etc.
> 
> DC and WB just need to focus on making better movies. Simple as that. If they can pull another Wonder Woman, they'll be back on track, despite JL's underwhelming performance. Plus, they've already put too much into this line of movies. Aquaman is done filming, *they already have directors attached for Shazam, Nightwing, Suicide Squad 2, and Margot Robbie just revealed that she's EPing a Harley Quinn solo movie.* As much as I wish it wasn't the case, this is the continuity we're stuck with. The only option is to *right* the ship, not sink it.


WB already are looking clueless. Its no different from now. Rather make a restart. Make a proper plan and stick to it.

They are not going to make a JL film for years. It won't be coming within 5 years with best results. So, confusion is not an issue. Any actor who is Batman can be alongside Gal Gadot and its fine. Ben Affleck is leaving anyway. People are not the biggest fans of other actors. A sad fact but the truth.

Self contained universe is actually what Fox is doing with its X-Men properties. Deadpool and X-Men are not set in the same universe.

I am not sure about the upcoming films other then Aquaman as its finished filming and WW 2. Others can be changed in the aftermath of JL.

----------


## golgi

If wb goes the legion of doom route, that will be cool. However, they don't need a shared universe to be successful. Just need to make solid films like wonder woman.

----------


## Buried Alien

> If wb goes the legion of doom route, that will be cool. However, they don't need a shared universe to be successful. Just need to make solid films like wonder woman.


Shared universes are fun, and DC fans should have a decent shot at more films in that vein for their characters. Pre-DCEU, we already had five solo Superman movies and seven solo Batman movies.  Going forward, I'd much rather see more shared universe movies.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Carabas

> If audiences are loving the cast why aren't they coming? I can't ever imagine that a Justice League film. I mean Justice League film with some of the greatest and most popular heroes of all time can't earn more then 100 million dollars in the opening weekend. Can you imagine a film with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman get such dismal numbers? So, 93 million dollars equivalent people came to watch in the opening weekend. Its loud and clear. People don't love the cast. Except for Gal Gadot i guess. But man even she couldn't help the film breach a 100 million. Its saddening. But the people have made it clear.


Because loving the cast just is not good enough to make people shell out for tickets. You also need to have them be in a good (or at least okay) movie.

You're also watching this through comic book fanboy goggles. The mainstream audience does not consider the Justice League to be something special. They're no different from Nextwave!. It's just another bunch of superheroes like any other.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Because loving the cast just is not good enough to make people shell out for tickets. You also need to have them be in a good (or at least okay) movie.
> 
> You're also watching this through comic book fanboy goggles. The mainstream audience does not consider the Justice League to be something special. They're no different from Nextwave!. It's just another bunch of superheroes like any other.


Mainstream audiences care for three people of DC. Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. Justice League has all three of them. Just a year ago the prospect of seeing Batman and Superman on screen got such a huge opening for BvS. But since, it was considered terrible it killed any interest in the upcoming Justice League which also had all three of them. Any film with those three shall not be worrying about breaking even. Even a divisive Man of Steel was the 2nd highest grossing superhero origin film of all time at that point. When films with these characters are good you have something like Wonder Woman which is the highest grossing superhero origin film. Batman's last two solo flicks earned 1 billion dollars each. When quality is divisive you have Man of Steel. When quality is good you have Wonder Woman. These three characters are iconic.Yes i am seeing from fanboy googles. But i am trying to see through mainstream audience eyes.   

When i say JL, then yes people are not so much into Justice League. But from WB's plans it was supposed to be DC's answer to the Avengers. Five films in, it earned the lowest of all five DCEU films in its opening. JL should have been like Avengers. And it has now become something like Nextwave as far as audience interest is concerned. In fact, at this point if Marvel makes a Nextwave film it will open higher then Justice League.

----------


## Carabas

After the last 4 movies that had him in it, I don't think that mainstream audiences care all that much about Superman.




> When i say JL, then yes people are not so much into Justice League. But from WB's plans it was supposed to be DC's answer to the Avengers. Five films in, it earned the lowest of all five DCEU films in its opening.


That's because they saw the other movies and liked only one of them. And this looked more like one of those they didn't like at all.

And a Nextwave! film would be amazing, and probably do very well. My points was that it's  not about how big a thing these properties are in comics, but how much faith the people have in the companies making these movies.

----------


## Confuzzled

Audience interest really depends on a hook. 

MoS had great hooks- First take on Superman after the success of the Nolan trilogy, produced by Nolan/many people were wrongly under the impression Nolan had directed the film at the time

BvS had great hooks- First onscreen meeting of Superman and Batman, marketed as legendary superhero bowl, plus the debut of Wonder Woman

Suicide Squad had the most number of hooks among DCEU films, which was why it managed to do as well despite succeeding the critically reviled MoS and BvS and being even more reviled itself- Onscreen debut of Harley Quinn, first Joker movie appearance after Ledger's TDK, popular artists on the soundtrack, new makeovers for the villains that really gelled well with the Target, SXSW and other younger crowd, racially and gender diverse cast which attracted a lot of demographics who may not check out superhero films otherwise, Will Smith in a superhero/supervillain movie

Wonder Woman had great hooks - First superheroine movie in the "Golden Age of Superhero Cinema", first solo movie of a legendary American icon and feminist figure, raving reviews confirming it was a seminal event in pop culture

Justice League had nada. It wasn't the first ensemble superhero film, it wasn't the first film where the Trinity were together (heck, Superman wasn't even in trailers), the trailers weren't able to convince people this was an event of the year like The Avengers did. Then the mixed to rotten reviews were the final nail in the coffin.

If you give audiences enough great hooks, they will come. It's for that reason why Aquaman can still break out if it has enticing trailers, the underwater sequences look breathtaking, the reviews are scintillating etc. Fanboys care about "ZOMG ensemble JL". Audiences just care about each individual superhero movie mostly on its own merit (unlike an exception like MoS, where a lot of the goodwill for the Nolan Bat trilogy played into anticipation of the movie, as WB succeeded in making it seeming like this was the Nolan-esque "epic and serious" take on Superman).

----------


## Soubhagya

> After the last 4 movies that had him in it, I don't think that mainstream audiences care all that much about Superman.
> 
> 
> That's because they saw the other movies and liked only one of them. And this looked more like one of those they didn't like at all.
> 
> And a Nextwave! film would be amazing, and probably do very well. My points was that it's  not about how big a thing these properties are in comics, but how much faith the people have in the companies making these movies.


And which is horrible. We are speaking of someone whose 20 year old sequel which depended on nostalgia (Superman Returns) made more then Batman Begins. If anyone is to blame its DC and WB. Superman Returns was a terrible idea. Banking on nostalgia and making a boring film. I don't understand how something like that cost 200 million in 2004 dollars to make. It has hardly any action. Audiences would hardly care when, even the films don't care about about him as a character. I repeat this many times. 43 lines in a two and a half hour film in BvS. The last film can qualify as a longer cameo. 

I think a new Superman film with a different actor can do well if it is of a reasonably good quality. Names like Superman give a bigger opening weekend then others. After that its the quality that speaks. But honestly speaking that is not happening. Won't i be bitter that Superman is in this bad shape? Man of Steel's foreign gross was more then first Captain America's lifetime gross. And next year i am going to watch Ant Man's sequel. I enjoyed the first Ant Man. Its not about seeing Marvel succeed. Its about DC's failure.

And i agree with your point. It is the same thing i am saying in a different way. People put faith in the companies that make these films. A big IP like the Trinity can only do so much. You have to earn audience's goodwill.

----------


## Silver Phoenix

> Justice League had nada. It wasn't the first ensemble superhero film, it wasn't the first film where the Trinity were together (heck, Superman wasn't even in trailers), the trailers weren't able to convince people this was an event of the year like The Avengers did. Then the mixed to rotten reviews were the final nail in the coffin.


Very well said and I agree mostly but I believe what you said about JL hit it right on the head.

I'm in the minority, I enjoyed JL, it was fun and exciting but I'm simple to please. 

I've been trying to figure out why, despite all the bias, JL made a thud with everyone but you may have answered it...

We've already done this film before: uniting of diverse heroes, big villain threat, etc. So basically JL's biggest problem is timing, it happened to late in the game.

Going ahead, I think WB/DCCU just needs to focus on telling good stories, developing and growing the DCCU and not care, please stop caring, what Marvel is doing, which is hurting our enjoyment of DC films in general IMO. 

Many aren't going to be able to do it because we will live in a world that lives on comparing, which is so sad.

But, if you are going to look at Marvel, WB/DC, look at what they haven't done and aren't doing and capitalize on that.

WW is a good example: first solo heroine film...boom! Hit it out the park. What else could DC capitalize on? More street level character films... a teen superhero film and more solo films for our JL crew... the more development, the more people will come to love these characters.

----------


## Robotman

> After the last 4 movies that had him in it, I don't think that mainstream audiences care all that much about Superman.
> 
> 
> That's because they saw the other movies and liked only one of them. And this looked more like one of those they didn't like at all.
> 
> And a Nextwave! film would be amazing, and probably do very well. My points was that it's  not about how big a thing these properties are in comics, but how much faith the people have in the companies making these movies.


This is what I’ve been trying to convey to people who say “well it looks like the public just doesn’t like DC characters.” Batman will always be popular and Wonder Woman was the most popular superhero of 2017. But Justice League didn’t generate excitement because 4 of the 5 DCEU films were average to bad. This film was a direct sequel to BvS, a film that causes vitriolic arguments between fans. Snyder’s style has divided the fanbase and leading up to Justice League WB found ways to anger both sides.

I like Cavill as Superman but he hasn’t been given any favors thus far in the DCEU and by WB in general. He’s so associated with Snyder’s DC films that they may be better off letting Superman lay low for a few years and recasting for his next solo outing. I think Cavill has a great look for Superman and he seems like a genuinely nice guy in real life but he’s part of a tarnished product.

I would love to see WB have some sort of game plan to save Superman. Give him a video game like the Arkham series to generate interest with younger (new) fans. The only two video games he’s appeared in in the last 10 years, he’s been portrayed as a dictator.




> Justice League had nada. It wasn't the first ensemble superhero film, it wasn't the first film where the Trinity were together (heck, Superman wasn't even in trailers), the trailers weren't able to convince people this was an event of the year like The Avengers did. Then the mixed to rotten reviews were the final nail in the coffin.
> 
> If you give audiences enough great hooks, they will come. It's for that reason why Aquaman can still break out if it has enticing trailers, the underwater sequences look breathtaking, the reviews are scintillating etc. Fanboys care about "ZOMG ensemble JL". Audiences just care about each individual superhero movie mostly on its own merit (unlike an exception like MoS, where a lot of the goodwill for the Nolan Bat trilogy played into anticipation of the movie, as WB succeeded in making it seeming like this was the Nolan-esque "epic and serious" take on Superman).


That’s a good point. After 3 Avengers movies (I’m counting Civil War) the idea of a superhero team up lost its uniqueness. WB was hoping that the popularity of Gal’s Wonder Woman would sell more tickets. Not even that could generate excitement. I think this movie just looked too much like BvS and Suicide Squad. That overshadowed Wonder Woman. 
So the only thing they could use to get people excited was the debut of Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg. The audience response: yay?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Very well said and I agree mostly but I believe what you said about JL hit it right on the head.
> 
> I'm in the minority, I enjoyed JL, it was fun and exciting but I'm simple to please. 
> 
> I've been trying to figure out why, despite all the bias, JL made a thud with everyone but you may have answered it...
> 
> We've already done this film before: uniting of diverse heroes, big villain threat, etc. So basically JL's biggest problem is timing, it happened to late in the game.
> 
> Going ahead, I think WB/DCCU just needs to focus on telling good stories, developing and growing the DCCU and not care, please stop caring, what Marvel is doing, which is hurting our enjoyment of DC films in general IMO. 
> ...


Exactly. Look how El Diablo connected with Hispanic men in Suicide Squad. Or how Harley and Wonder Woman sent women on crazy costume buying sprees and other such devotion. DC has excelled when it has exploited Marvel's shortcomings (in these two cases, lack of Latino and lead women superheroes respectively in the MCU).

Street level characters and teenagers are great suggestions. Nightwing, Batgirl, Harley Quinn/Sirens fulfil the first, Shazam fulfils the second to an extent (but we should really get the Titans in there). The Legion of Doom or the Injustice League is indeed a novel idea- Various villains being introduced in different solo superhero movies and then teaming up together to take on the superheroes. Justice League 2 could actually be bigger than the likes of Age of Ultron if the next solo movies are great and it is marketed with an epic _Justice League: Heroes vs. Villains_ kind of hook.

Aquaman's underwater concept is novel. The Batman solo can be novel if it is an _Arkham Asylum_ style feature showcasing the iconic Batman Rogues Gallery. Keep offering something different and uniquely DC, ensure employing reliable talent instead of hiring iffy talent and micromanaging the heck out of them, and the DCEU can still bounce back pretty well.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Exactly. Look how El Diablo connected with Hispanic men in Suicide Squad. Or how Harley and Wonder Woman sent women on crazy costume buying sprees and other such devotion. DC has excelled when it has exploited Marvel's shortcomings (in these two cases, lack of Latino and lead women superheroes respectively in the MCU).
> 
> Street level characters and teenagers are great suggestions. Nightwing, Batgirl, Harley Quinn/Sirens fulfil the first, Shazam fulfils the second to an extent (but we should really get the Titans in there). The Legion of Doom or the Injustice League is indeed a novel idea- Various villains being introduced in different solo superhero movies and then teaming up together to take on the superheroes. Justice League 2 could actually be bigger than the likes of Age of Ultron if the next solo movies are great and it is marketed with an epic _Justice League: Heroes vs. Villains_ kind of hook.
> 
> Aquaman's underwater concept is novel. The Batman solo can be novel if it is an _Arkham Asylum_ style feature showcasing the iconic Batman Rogues Gallery. Keep offering something different and uniquely DC, ensure employing reliable talent instead of hiring iffy talent and micromanaging the heck out of them, and the DCEU can still bounce back pretty well.


Yes its doable. Try to do unique stuff. Audiences are not satisfied with something only conventional nowadays. If they make a series of good films its possible to bounce back.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> WB already are looking clueless. Its no different from now. Rather make a restart. Make a proper plan and stick to it.
> 
> They are not going to make a JL film for years. It won't be coming within 5 years with best results. So, confusion is not an issue. Any actor who is Batman can be alongside Gal Gadot and its fine. Ben Affleck is leaving anyway. People are not the biggest fans of other actors. A sad fact but the truth.
> 
> Self contained universe is actually what Fox is doing with its X-Men properties. Deadpool and X-Men are not set in the same universe.
> 
> I am not sure about the upcoming films other then Aquaman as its finished filming and WW 2. Others can be changed in the aftermath of JL.


Rebooting the way you're proposing just wouldn't work. Keeping some things and jettisoning others would lead to a whole New 52-type situation and nobody would know what the heck was in continuity in the movie universe and what wasn't. You can't keep Gadot's Wonder Woman, but get rid of Affleck's Batman. You either have to trash all of it or keep all of it.

Also, is Ben Affleck leaving? Because he keeps saying he isn't. And even if he did leave, I'd imagine it'd be like the whole Rhodey-Don Cheadle-Terrence Howard situation: different actor, same continuity.

Is Deadpool not set in the same universe as the other X-films? Because I didn't see anything that flat out said it wasn't.

Even Marvel has had plenty of missteps. Both Iron Fist and Inhumans tanked *hard*. But I don't see them being rebooted. Marvel just course corrects. That's what DC should do.

The only two options are: (1) throw all of it away, try again in a few years or (2) work with what they have, but do better with a coherent plan in place. They were already able to course-correct once with Wonder Woman. They could again with Aquaman. We'll see where we are when Aquman drops.

----------


## Carabas

> Both Iron Fist and Inhumans tanked *hard*.


Ehm, Iron Fist was actually a massive hit for Netflix. Much bigger than Daredevil season 2.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Ehm, Iron Fist was actually a massive hit for Netflix. Much bigger than Daredevil season 2.


It tanked with critics. It got worse reviews than BvS.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Rebooting the way you're proposing just wouldn't work. Keeping some things and jettisoning others would lead to a whole New 52-type situation and nobody would know what the heck was in continuity in the movie universe and what wasn't. You can't keep Gadot's Wonder Woman, but get rid of Affleck's Batman. You either have to trash all of it or keep all of it.
> 
> Also, is Ben Affleck leaving? Because he keeps saying he isn't.
> 
> Is Deadpool not set in the same universe as the other X-films? Because I didn't see anything that flat out said it wasn't.
> 
> Even Marvel has had plenty of missteps. Both Iron Fist and Inhumans tanked *hard*. But I don't see them being rebooted. Marvel just course corrects. That's what DC should do.
> 
> The only two options are: (1) throw all of it away, try again in a few years or (2) work with what they have, but do better with a coherent plan in place.


No i don't think Affleck is making another film. I think he keeps saying that because otherwise it would be a PR disaster. Ben Affleck is an acclaimed director and actor. After he won the Academy Award DC actually made a coup by getting him for Batman. I am noticing things which says that he is not interested but going away. First, he was supposed to direct as well as act in Batman. Then he said he wants to do the role justice so he is stepping away from the director's chair. A while back there was something like he wants to gracefully segue out of the role. For someone of his talent who has risen out of a slump in career to be part of DCEU makes no sense even if he is a big fan of these characters. Imagine if he had said i am leaving playing Batman in March or even a month or two ago. It would cast a really bad light on WB and DCEU.

People aren't so confused with these continuities. Even a little thinking makes big holes in X-Men franchise. People seem to be doing fine with it. And yes Deadpool and X-Men are in different continuities. Deadpool lives in a universe which has the X-Men. But they are not shown and are actually different. There's a different Colossus there who is different from other X-Men films.

Inhumans and Iron Fist are tv series. They are not so problematic. DC has been having failures since Man of Steel. If MoS, BvS, SS would have been successful no matter what JL would have been in the top 10 highest opening weekends among comic book films at least. At present its at #22. Just behind the original Guardians of the Galaxy. They did not come even for Wonder Woman.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/...er=DESC&p=.htm

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> No i don't think Affleck is making another film. I think he keeps saying that because otherwise it would be a PR disaster. Ben Affleck is an acclaimed director and actor. After he won the Academy Award DC actually made a coup by getting him for Batman. I am noticing things which says that he is not interested but going away. First, he was supposed to direct as well as act in Batman. Then he said he wants to do the role justice so he is stepping away from the director's chair. A while back there was something like he wants to gracefully segue out of the role. For someone of his talent who has risen out of a slump in career to be part of DCEU makes no sense even if he is a big fan of these characters. Imagine if he had said i am leaving playing Batman in March or even a month or two ago. It would cast a really bad light on WB and DCEU.


That's actually a common move for an actor who is stretched too thin: they hand over some of their responsibilities to someone else. And regardless of some things, we don't actually know what's going on. Affleck just stated that he was committed to sticking around as Batman for as long as the studio would have him after that whole "segue out" thing. In the end, only Affleck and the studio actually *know* what he's thinking, and maybe not even the studio. Plus, I've heard that the rumblings are that Affleck wants to stay but the studio is the one not so sure about keeping him.




> People aren't so confused with these continuities. Even a little thinking makes big holes in X-Men franchise. People seem to be doing fine with it. And yes Deadpool and X-Men are in different continuities. Deadpool lives in a universe which has the X-Men. But they are not shown and are actually different. There's a different Colossus there who is different from other X-Men films.


Colossus is big, burly, and metal....its pretty much how Colossus has always been.




> Inhumans and Iron Fist are tv series. They are not so problematic. DC has been having failures since Man of Steel. If MoS, BvS, SS would have been successful no matter what JL would have been in the top 10 highest opening weekends among comic book films at least. At present its at #22. Just behind the original Guardians of the Galaxy.


Inhumans actually opened in IMAX theaters...and then proceeded to tank.

But, yeah, I agree that the DC slate has been riddled with problems that *need* to be fixed. I don't think, though, that selectively rebooting is the answer. They either have to completely trash the DCEU as of now and start from scratch in a few years (which I don't think is likely or would even be a popular choice) or just make better movies from now on and kind of ignore the events of the not-so-good ones.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yes its doable. Try to do unique stuff. Audiences are not satisfied with something only conventional nowadays. If they make a series of good films its possible to bounce back.


They have to be vigilant with their content screening and talent hiring right from the start now. No more "rehiring Zack Snyder and butchering his work when he ends up giving what he is expected of giving" and "firing prematurely hired multiple directors from The Flash" kind of idiotic moves.

Geoff Johns and co. should assess which director and writer(s) are a perfect fit for each character or team, discuss what said director and writers have in mind before hiring them, see if it can somehow be aligned with their own overall vision, and only then proceed. That initial filtering process for each project has to be solid. I feel that's what is hurting DCEU movies the most. WB execs rush too early and then realize their mistakes when it's too goddamn late.

----------


## Soubhagya

> That's actually a common move for an actor who is stretched too thin: they hand over some of their responsibilities to someone else. And regardless of some things, we don't actually know what's going on. Affleck just stated that he was committed to sticking around as Batman for as long as the studio would have him after that whole "segue out" thing. In the end, only Affleck and the studio actually *know* what he's thinking, and maybe not even the studio. Plus, I've heard that the rumblings are that Affleck wants to stay but the studio is the one not so sure about keeping him.
> 
> 
> 
> Colossus is big, burly, and metal....its pretty much how Colossus has always been.
> 
> 
> 
> Inhumans actually opened in IMAX theaters...and then proceeded to tank.
> ...


Then trash everything. Try to keep WW. The number (BO Opening) keeps on declining. Indicating people's general lack of interest in anything of DC. I can't understand how JL earned less then WW. Shouldn't more people be coming to watch then her solo? The declining trend worries me. From BvS to now each one is lesser then the one before it. 

I would be happy to be wrong and Aquaman is the beginning of a series of acclaimed films. But its difficult to believe it. At present the only plan appears to be that there is no plan. Rather take some time maybe a year and get everything in order. X-Men was made on the back of two acclaimed films. Thus, missteps don't affect it a lot. After two back to back duds, the next film First Class was a good one making the way for next set of films. WW was a forward step followed by many steps backwards in JL.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcUgeotXH-I
> 
> Fast forward to around 20 minutes.  He is pissed!


Campea has been a DCEU critic for a long time, but there's gotta be credibility to this.

This video is from Dave the Film Junkee. He's a huge DC/Zack Snyder fan (in this very video, he shamelessly refers to himself as a Zack Snyder shill) and like half his videos are about defending the DCEU and shooting down "This movie is a MESS" rumors. 

If he's this angry, then there's gotta be some truth to this story. 

Fair warning? He uses a fair bit of language, so if you're sensitive, don't click.

----------


## Johnny

> It tanked with critics. It got worse reviews than BvS.


To be fair, critics were salivating to annihilate Iron Fist ever since the casting was first announced. Granted, the first season totally deserved the trouncing, but even it it had been better, they were still going to keep beating the white savior drum to death and beyond. I saw one review that said many of the problems would've been avoided had Danny Rand been an Asian-American dealing with discrimination by Rand Enterprises' board of directors. Yeah, the review actually suggested that. I was done.

----------


## Soubhagya

> To be fair, critics we salivating to annihilate Iron Fist ever since the casting was first announced. Granted, the first season totally deserved the trouncing, but even it it had been better, they were still going to keep beating the white savior drum to death and beyond. I saw one review that said many of the problems would've been avoided had Danny Rand been an Asian-American dealing with discrimination by Rand Industries' board of directors. Yeah, the review actually suggested that. I was done.


Some critics are like that. I don't think most critics actively want to trash a film. Why would they? It gives them no benefit.

----------


## Carabas

> It tanked with critics. It got worse reviews than BvS.


Critics alone don't make you money.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Campea has been a DCEU critic for a long time, but there's gotta be credibility to this.


I know there is  truth to it because I said a while back that WB wanted to fire Snyder but kept him due to a release date.  Of course when I said it the apologists all screamed, "Source?!" even after I said I wasn't going to saying anything more.  I make a comfortable living in this industry and my contemporaries are working actors, directors, producers, and writers.  It has been known for a while now amongst these circles that WB wanted to fire Snyder but backed off due to a release date.  The Tsujihara bonus is new information.  Also Campea may be a DCEU critic but he also likes the movies so his opinions don't have the extremist bias that worshippers/haters have.  That gives his opinion some center to it.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Man, JL's behind the scenes drama is worthy of a movie itself.

I wonder what he refers to?: https://twitter.com/JLDlite/status/936017605881610240

----------


## Soubhagya

> I know there is  truth to it because I said a while back that WB wanted to fire Snyder but kept him due to a release date.  Of course when I said it the apologists all screamed, "Source?!" even after I said I wasn't going to saying anything more.  I make a comfortable living in this industry and my contemporaries are working actors, directors, producers, and writers.  It has been known for a while now amongst these circles that WB wanted to fire Snyder but backed off due to a release date.  The Tsujihara bonus is new information.  Also Campea may be a DCEU critic but he also likes the movies so his opinions don't have the extremist bias that worshippers/haters have.  That gives his opinion some center to it.


This seems too obvious but aren't the fans whom you call 'apologists' familiar with the idea of criticism out of love? One can criticize and yet love something at the same time. I criticize DCEU films. Yet love it at the same time. I loved JL and WW. I like MoS and 'kinda' like BvS. Is it either love or hate? 

When i criticize DC films here, i want it to succeed. Make better films. I am in love with DC characters. They are some of the greatest characters in the whole world. It has legions of fans around the world. They deserve a DCEU just as Marvel fans have their MCU. Can't fans accept criticism which is honest? There is dishonest criticism. You mentioned 'haters'. These things have no value. Just like that dishonest praise has no value in the long run. 

Anyway its cool that you work in the industry. I did not know there are people from so many walks of life here.  :Smile:

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Then trash everything. Try to keep WW. The number (BO Opening) keeps on declining. Indicating people's general lack of interest in anything of DC. I can't understand how JL earned less then WW. Shouldn't more people be coming to watch then her solo? The declining trend worries me. From BvS to now each one is lesser then the one before it. 
> 
> I would be happy to be wrong and Aquaman is the beginning of a series of acclaimed films. But its difficult to believe it. At present the only plan appears to be that there is no plan. Rather take some time maybe a year and get everything in order. X-Men was made on the back of two acclaimed films. Thus, missteps don't affect it a lot. After two back to back duds, the next film First Class was a good one making the way for next set of films. WW was a forward step followed by many steps backwards in JL.


I dont think its declining interest in DC itself as a concept. Its declining interest in going to see bad movies. If people hear that word of mouth surrounding a movie is that its good, then they'll go see it. If they hear that its bad, they won't. Its as simple as that. If the next few entries into the DCEU are actually good movies, then people will go see them. People went to see Wonder Woman after BvS tanked, even though she was in BvS. They just need to rest the Justice League for a few years, and then bring them back with a proper script, lineup of characters, and new director.

Until then, focus on making good Flash, Green Lantern, and Aquaman movies and a great WW sequel. Ditch the Cyborg solo because that, IMO, has disaster written all over it. Make it a Titans film instead. Then, come back and do a proper Justice League movie with MM back in his proper place, acting like the first was just...a "one time thing."

----------


## bobellis75

> No i don't think Affleck is making another film. I think he keeps saying that because otherwise it would be a PR disaster. Ben Affleck is an acclaimed director and actor. After he won the Academy Award DC actually made a coup by getting him for Batman. I am noticing things which says that he is not interested but going away. First, he was supposed to direct as well as act in Batman. Then he said he wants to do the role justice so he is stepping away from the director's chair. A while back there was something like he wants to gracefully segue out of the role. For someone of his talent who has risen out of a slump in career to be part of DCEU makes no sense even if he is a big fan of these characters. Imagine if he had said i am leaving playing Batman in March or even a month or two ago. It would cast a really bad light on WB and DCEU.
> 
> People aren't so confused with these continuities. Even a little thinking makes big holes in X-Men franchise. People seem to be doing fine with it. And yes Deadpool and X-Men are in different continuities. Deadpool lives in a universe which has the X-Men. But they are not shown and are actually different. There's a different Colossus there who is different from other X-Men films.
> 
> Inhumans and Iron Fist are tv series. They are not so problematic. DC has been having failures since Man of Steel. If MoS, BvS, SS would have been successful no matter what JL would have been in the top 10 highest opening weekends among comic book films at least. At present its at #22. Just behind the original Guardians of the Galaxy. They did not come even for Wonder Woman.
> 
> http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/...er=DESC&p=.htm


I think a big part of Affleck stepping back from directing/writing has to do with his drinking as well. He's had a couple of relapses from the sound of it and they said with the JL press tour he had a sober coach traveling with him. That said...the Batman thing may be all to much for him to deal with. It's a massive time draining role to be part of and with the critical reviews...maybe it's not a great mix for him with his personal demons. Maybe he needs to go back to just direct a couple flicks, get his face out of the limelight.

I'd love to see him continue, but I do think he's going to step aside sooner rather than later.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Critics alone don't make you money.


I know that, but it was still not well-received critically. They did have to get a new show runner, I think.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Ehm, Iron Fist was actually a massive hit for Netflix. Much bigger than Daredevil season 2.


Wasn't it the least watched of the four Season 1's? Couldn't this just mean Daredevil Season 2 was an even bigger disappointment?

----------


## Soubhagya

> I dont think its declining interest in DC itself as a concept. Its declining interest in going to see bad movies. If people hear that word of mouth surrounding a movie is that its good, then they'll go see it. If they hear that its bad, they won't. Its as simple as that. If the next few entries into the DCEU are actually good movies, then people will go see them. People went to see Wonder Woman after BvS tanked, even though she was in BvS. They just need to rest the Justice League for a few years, and then bring them back with a proper script, lineup of characters, and new director.
> 
> Until then, focus on making good Flash, Green Lantern, and Aquaman movies and a great WW sequel. Ditch the Cyborg solo because that, IMO, has disaster written all over it. Make it a Titans film instead. Then, come back and do a proper Justice League movie with MM back in his proper place, acting like the first was just...a "one time thing."


WOM comes later. After they watch the film in the first place. If its good then they tell others who come to watch. And if they love it they keep coming back. Thus, weekend multipliers or legs indicates the quality of the present product. How much they liked the film which they watched and if they are interested to see its sequel.

Audience interest is better gauged by the opening weekend. That crowd are the group of people who actually are interested in the franchise. If i am interested in something, unless there is a reason stopping me i would watch it in the first weekend. That crowd may then give that WOM which would make the legs possible. 

That number has declined over time. WOM comes to picture after the first weekend.

WW was one of the bright spots of BvS. People always wanted to see WW on the big screen. She is an icon. Especially, for girls and women. There was a demand for female driven superhero. It did good for an opening weekend. Lesser than Man of Steel though. But it could have been better had it not followed BvS and SS. The WOM however made it a phenomenal success. It had wonderful legs.

----------


## Carabas

> Wasn't it the least watched of the four Season 1's? Couldn't this just mean Daredevil Season 2 was an even bigger disappointment?


Second most watched, after Jessica Jones.

Fan rage does not translate into reliable statistics.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> WOM comes later. After they watch the film in the first place. If its good then they tell others who come to watch. And if they love it they keep coming back. Thus, weekend multipliers or legs indicates the quality of the present product. How much they liked the film which they watched and if they are interested to see its sequel.


Nowadays it comes before. Because people see sites like Rotten Tomatoes and the like and know how a majority of critics felt about the movie before its even officially released. That's word of mouth. And the box office reflects that. People saw the reviews for Wonder Woman and that's why they went to see it. And that's why it continued with such a strong performance. People saw the reviews for BvS and JL and that's why they didn't perform or continue to perform at strong levels.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This seems too obvious but aren't the fans whom you call 'apologists' familiar with the idea of criticism out of love? One can criticize and yet love something at the same time. I criticize DCEU films. Yet love it at the same time. I loved JL and WW. I like MoS and 'kinda' like BvS. Is it either love or hate? 
> 
> When i criticize DC films here, i want it to succeed. Make better films. I am in love with DC characters. They are some of the greatest characters in the whole world. It has legions of fans around the world. They deserve a DCEU just as Marvel fans have their MCU. Can't fans accept criticism which is honest? There is dishonest criticism. You mentioned 'haters'. These things have no value. Just like that dishonest praise has no value in the long run. 
> 
> Anyway its cool that you work in the industry. I did not know there are people from so many walks of life here.


I've said several times in the past that it isn't just the critics.  Snyder is just not that well liked in the industry.  In real life when there is an actual face to every real name... I have yet to talk to anyone who loved BvS.  It doesn't matter what studio they work for WB, Disney, Fox, Sony.  Some may think that I'm too critical of BvS.  I liked BvS and amongst people who I've worked with since spring 2016... I'm the BvS defender.  The majority who I've worked with have described BvS as a work beginning with a C and ending with a P.  Actually the only people within the industry who I've ever met who truly liked BvS weren't actors, directors, writers, DPs.  They were certain members of the Collider or Nerdist crew... so youtube reporters basically.

These reports also prove what many have said in the past.  BvS WAS a disappointment for WB.  Some BvS defenders have aggressively claimed the contrary... and officially been proven wrong.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Second most watched, after Jessica Jones.


It was watched more than Daredevil Season 1? Source?

----------


## Confuzzled

> I've said several times in the past that it isn't just the critics.  Snyder is just not that well liked in the industry.  In real life when there is an actual face to every real name... I have yet to talk to anyone who loved BvS.  It doesn't matter what studio they work for WB, Disney, Fox, Sony.  Some may think that I'm too critical of BvS.  I liked BvS and amongst people who I've worked with since spring 2016... I'm the BvS defender.  The majority who I've worked with have described BvS as a work beginning with a C and ending with a P.  Actually the only people within the industry who I've ever met who truly liked BvS weren't actors, directors, writers, DPs.  They were certain members of the Collider or Nerdist crew... so youtube reporters basically.
> 
> These reports also prove what many have said in the past.  BvS WAS a disappointment for WB.  Some BvS defenders have aggressively claimed the contrary... and officially been proven wrong.


Huh, all the people who have worked with him have nothing but great things to say about him. And apparently Christopher Nolan fought some WB execs who were micromanaging him during Man of Steel.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Nowadays it comes before. Because people see sites like Rotten Tomatoes and the like and know how a majority of critics felt about the movie before its even officially released. That's word of mouth. And the box office reflects that. People saw the reviews for Wonder Woman and that's why they went to see it. And that's why it continued with such a strong performance. People saw the reviews for BvS and JL and that's why they didn't perform or continue to perform at strong levels.


You are giving a lot of credit to RT. If critics score play such a big part all critically acclaimed films should make money. That does not happen. Blade Runner 2049 is an example. On the other hand, its wrong to say that they play no role. If that is so Transformers or Pirates of Carribean would not show a decline. RT and critics play a role in the result. 

I think the truth is somewhere in between. Critics scores don't make or break a film. I have heard that critics scores swing the box office by about 10%. Word of mouth actually comes after people watch the film. That is how articles on the internet describe word of mouth.




> I've said several times in the past that it isn't just the critics.  Snyder is just not that well liked in the industry.  In real life when there is an actual face to every real name... I have yet to talk to anyone who loved BvS.  It doesn't matter what studio they work for WB, Disney, Fox, Sony.  Some may think that I'm too critical of BvS.  I liked BvS and amongst people who I've worked with since spring 2016... I'm the BvS defender.  The majority who I've worked with have described BvS as a work beginning with a C and ending with a P.  Actually the only people within the industry who I've ever met who truly liked BvS weren't actors, directors, writers, DPs.  They were certain members of the Collider or Nerdist crew... so youtube reporters basically.
> 
> These reports also prove what many have said in the past.  BvS WAS a disappointment for WB.  Some BvS defenders have aggressively claimed the contrary... and officially been proven wrong.


That is actually difficult to accept. Isn't it? However JL shall be an eye opener. But sadly fans blame Whedon and studio interference when there is hardly any basis to that claim. Rather, the changes have increased the RT score. Critics are more forgiving then BvS. 

Its a fact that films are subjective. If it works for fans its alright. One just has to accept that just because something works for me does not necessarily work for everybody. I am in love with JL. Its one of my favorite comic book films. A view shared by very few people.

----------


## Troian

> Yeah, shutting down the DCEU won't do anything. The audience loves the cast, that's just not enough cause they want a good film, too. WW proved people are more than willing to give WB the benefit of the doubt whenever they actually happen to handle things the right way.


The only JL cast member that has almost universal praise is Wonder Woman. Everyone is either a mixed bag (Superman, Batman) or generally good but still some faults (I know that there were people who did not like Barry being almost solely comic relief or Aquaman's frat boy personality and some who did). Cyborg, eh. And I'm using the character names because to the general audience that is how many see them as first. 

The audience still needs time and maybe hey better movies for them to warm up to the rest of the cast.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Campea has been a DCEU critic for a long time, but there's gotta be credibility to this.
> 
> This video is from Dave the Film Junkee. He's a huge DC/Zack Snyder fan (in this very video, he shamelessly refers to himself as a Zack Snyder shill) and like half his videos are about defending the DCEU and shooting down "This movie is a MESS" rumors. 
> 
> If he's this angry, then there's gotta be some truth to this story. 
> 
> Fair warning? He uses a fair bit of language, so if you're sensitive, don't click.


The issue was really them not allowing any delay to the movie so they could keep their bonuses even if it was a negative to the film and DCEU and this guy just seems butt hurt they wanted to dump Snyder which was the only good idea they had.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I know there is  truth to it because I said a while back that WB wanted to fire Snyder but kept him due to a release date.  Of course when I said it the apologists all screamed, "Source?!" even after I said I wasn't going to saying anything more.  I make a comfortable living in this industry and my contemporaries are working actors, directors, producers, and writers.  It has been known for a while now amongst these circles that WB wanted to fire Snyder but backed off due to a release date.  The Tsujihara bonus is new information.  Also Campea may be a DCEU critic but he also likes the movies so his opinions don't have the extremist bias that worshippers/haters have.  That gives his opinion some center to it.


So wait a minute? You're mad that people didn't just mindlessly believe you when you made grandiose statements about the inner workings of a movie and flat-out REFUSED to offer any evidence to support your claim? 

Welcome to the Internet, where "Trust no one unless you know them personally or unless they back up their words with verifiable facts" is pretty much the credo by which we all live.

Now, if you'll excuse me? I'm late for my lunch date with Stephen Spielberg. He really wants my insights into his next couple movie projects. And no, I will NOT offer any proof that I actually know Stephen! Why should I have to? Just take my word for it already! :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Troian

> You are giving a lot of credit to RT. If critics score play such a big part all critically acclaimed films should make money. That does not happen. Blade Runner 2049 is an example. On the other hand, its wrong to say that they play no role. If that is so Transformers or Pirates of Carribean would not show a decline. RT and critics play a role in the result. 
> 
> I think the truth is somewhere in between. Critics scores don't make or break a film. I have heard that critics scores swing the box office by about 10%. Word of mouth actually comes after people watch the film. That is how articles on the internet describe word of mouth.


marketing. People need to know what the film is about and when is it. On facebook and reddit i read that some ppl actually did not know that JL was coming out in mid November and others who chose to skip it because the marketing made it look generic and uninteresting. 

And its also about the audience. Can the movie expand from its targeted demographic? Harry Potter DH Pt 2 is one of the most highest reviewed movies and many fans were pleased with the ending but why was it so frontloaded? Because all the fans rushed out on opening weekend and by then you either wanted to watch HP or you didn't. 

WW could get families, older women, men, children, women everyone in between to watch it which is why it kept dropping so low. Clearly JL has bad wom because of the drops its seeing. On its first two Sunday-to-Monday drops it dropped above average then the norm. Just last week on Thursday of JL's forst week, many movies have followed the norm of increasing from Wednesday to Thursday but JL actually decreased. And while it dropped "only" 57 percent on its second weekend, that was with a HOLIDAY and wothout TG it would have dropped higher. 

People just aren't interested and the marketing made it look like a generic alien invasion/team up stop them movie which it was.

----------


## Soubhagya

> marketing. People need to know what the film is about and when is it. On facebook and reddit i read that some ppl actually did not know that JL was coming out in mid November and others who chose to skip it because the marketing made it look generic and uninteresting. 
> 
> And its also about the audience. Can the movie expand from its targeted demographic? Harry Potter DH Pt 2 is one of the most highest reviewed movies and many fans were pleased with the ending but why was it so frontloaded? Because all the fans rushed out on opening weekend and by then you either wanted to watch HP or you didn't. 
> 
> WW could get families, older women, men, children, women everyone in between to watch it which is why it kept dropping so low. Clearly JL has bad wom because of the drops its seeing. On its first two Sunday-to-Monday drops it dropped above average then the norm. Just last week on Thursday of JL's forst week, many movies have followed the norm of increasing from Wednesday to Thursday but JL actually decreased. And while it dropped "only" 57 percent on its second weekend, that was with a HOLIDAY and wothout TG it would have dropped higher. 
> 
> People just aren't interested and the marketing made it look like a generic alien invasion/team up stop them movie which it was.


I agree with all of this. There is no single reason of JL's failure. Marketing is one big reason. I would add one thing. No Superman. It might not matter much. But still if you have something like Superman why hide him? Wasn't the last film advertised as Batman fights Superman? The two names gave them such an opening.

Marketing is one reason. Critics score is another. There was this hiding of the score which created confusion and doubt. Behind the scenes stuff like reshoots added to it. I think they all combined to make this a disaster. But most important reason imo is BvS. The series of divisive films back from MoS. BvS' multiplier is on par of franchise ending films.

WB shall take a long hard look. There is no film for one whole year. Fans deserve much better.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I agree with all of this. There is no single reason of JL's failure. Marketing is one big reason. I would add one thing. No Superman. It might not matter much. But still if you have something why hide it? 
> 
> Marketing is one reason. Critics score is another. There was this hiding of the score which created confusion and doubt. Behind the scenes stuff like reshoots added to it. I think they all combined to make this a disaster. But most important reason imo is BvS. And the series of divisive films back from MoS. BvS' multiplier is on par of franchise ending films.
> 
> WB shall take a long hard look. There is no film for one whole year. Fans deserve much better.


Aquaman comes out in December 2018 and in the span since MoS to Aquaman the DCEU released 6 films. The MCU 13 even Fox Marvel would have had released 8 films it's sad how far behind the DCEU is and how many missteps were taken.

----------


## Myskin

> I agree with all of this. There is no single reason of JL's failure. Marketing is one big reason. I would add one thing. No Superman. It might not matter much. But still if you have something like Superman why hide him? Wasn't the last film advertised as Batman fights Superman? The two names gave them such an opening.
> 
> Marketing is one reason. Critics score is another. There was this hiding of the score which created confusion and doubt. Behind the scenes stuff like reshoots added to it. I think they all combined to make this a disaster. But most important reason imo is BvS. The series of divisive films back from MoS. BvS' multiplier is on par of franchise ending films.
> .


 Quite frankly, I think that the most important factor is that it is a horrible, confusing, muddled movie which generared a very poor word of mouth.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Quite frankly, I think that the most important factor is that it is a horrible, confusing, muddled movie which generared a very poor word of mouth.


Word of mouth comes into the picture after the opening weekend. People talk about a film after they see it. Before that they may doubt it. Word of mouth technically means that those people who watch it then recommend to their friends and others. Or not.

You are right about it though. It had a drop of 57% in its second weekend. Which is actually good. BvS, MoS and SS had drops of 67-69% range. But not enough. It earned 40 million dollars in its second weekend. In comparison Ragnarok, Homecoming and WW, each earned more then 55 million dollars in the second weekend. JL's performance with lack of any big competition is disheartening. Coco displaced it in its second weekend.

However, i love the movie.  :Smile:

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Quite frankly, I think that the most important factor is that it is a horrible, confusing, muddled movie which generared a very poor word of mouth.


What was confusing about JL? Not arguing, just asking. I thought it was much more straightforward than either MoS or BvS (I didn't find those confusing either, but I know many did).

----------


## Myskin

> What was confusing about JL? Not arguing, just asking. I thought it was much more straightforward than either MoS or BvS (I didn't find those confusing either, but I know many did).


The editing.
The CGI.
The action scenes. 
Even the continuity of JL in regard to the previous movie. Or even between single scenes. 
I mean, we can investigate about the reasons behind the failure of the movie as much as we want, but when everything is said and done it's just a forgettable piece of cinematic garbage. It is almost in the same league with Spawn or Batman and Robin. It isn't worth the effort.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> You are giving a lot of credit to RT. If critics score play such a big part all critically acclaimed films should make money. That does not happen. Blade Runner 2049 is an example. On the other hand, its wrong to say that they play no role. If that is so Transformers or Pirates of Carribean would not show a decline. RT and critics play a role in the result. 
> 
> I think the truth is somewhere in between. Critics scores don't make or break a film. I have heard that critics scores swing the box office by about 10%. Word of mouth actually comes after people watch the film. That is how articles on the internet describe word of mouth.


The critics also tend to line up with word of mouth more often than not. Critics are just people who get to see the movie earlier, after all. If the critics say something is bad, then other people are not keen to like it either. 

But regardless, I just do not see them rebooting. They're already too far in it and have invested too much in this universe. Maybe if they did something like DoFP with Flashpoint, but I don't know if its likely. If they were to bail on this line of movies, then I think they'd just forget making any DC movies altogether. Though at this point, that may actually be preferable.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> The editing.
> The CGI.
> The action scenes. 
> Even the continuity of JL in regard to the previous movie. Or even between single scenes. 
> I mean, we can investigate about the reasons behind the failure of the movie as much as we want, but when everything is said and done it's just a forgettable piece of cinematic garbage. It is almost in the same league with Spawn or Batman and Robin. It isn't worth the effort.


I got complete Batman and Robin vibes from the entire joint, to be honest.

----------


## Myskin

> I got complete Batman and Robin vibes from the entire joint, to be honest.


Me too. Especially the scenes in Gotham, which looked fake as hell (including J K Simmons' horrible toupee) and literally every time Superman opens his CGI mouth. Do you want to understand what's wrong with Superman? Look no further than his horrible 'truth and justice' line.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

An interesting article from CBR: https://www.cbr.com/warner-bros-can-save-dceu/

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> The issue was really them not allowing any delay to the movie so they could keep their bonuses even if it was a negative to the film and DCEU and this guy just seems butt hurt they wanted to dump Snyder which was the only good idea they had.


The 'Snyder-heads'(as I like to call them) seem to be rather oblivious to the reality that if they had left Snyder alone on Justice League like they did with BvS  then  things would most likely be the exact same but maybe worse.   

Here's a much more reasonable and logical person's take on things.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> The 'Snyder-heads'(as I like to call them) seem to be rather oblivious to the reality that if they had left Snyder alone on Justice League like they did with BvS  that things would most likely be the exact same but maybe worse. 
> 
> Here's a more reasonable and logical person.


I think with what we know about the cuts and demands of the studio that its fair to say their involvement is what ruined these movies. He would have given them a bunch of divisive movies but they wouldnt have been nearly as bad had he not been forced to include characters he didnt plan to at the last minute or cut exposition that really made the film make more sense.

----------


## Carabas

> The 'Snyder-heads'(as I like to call them) seem to be rather oblivious to the reality that if they had left Snyder alone on Justice League like they did with BvS  then  things would most likely be the exact same but maybe worse.


If they had left Snyder alone there would just have been Man Of Steel 1-3.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I think with what we know about the cuts and demands of the studio that its fair to say their involvement is what ruined these movies. He would have given them a bunch of divisive movies *but they wouldnt have been nearly as bad had he not been forced to include characters he didnt plan to at the last minute or cut exposition that really made the film make more sense*.


What do you mean?

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> If they had left Snyder alone there would just have been Man Of Steel 1-3.


Well...that's only if you believe  Snyder was lying in interviews about the idea of putting Batman in the sequel being his.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> It is almost in the same league with Spawn or Batman and Robin. It isn't worth the effort.


Ridiculous opinion.



 (IMO).

----------


## Confuzzled

> An interesting article from CBR: https://www.cbr.com/warner-bros-can-save-dceu/


A far more feasible and rational plan than most other "How to Save the DCEU" online articles.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> What do you mean?


The changes the execs made to his movie or forced on him made his work worse. They shoehorned in the rest of the JL into BvS, they had Whendon pretty much undermine the entire first half of the movie, and they cut out 30 mins of bvs that made the ultimate edition at least marginally better than the theatrical cut. Im sure his work would have faired a bit better with the critics. A 60 or a 55 percent on RT is better than the 20s and 40s he got because of WBs meddling.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Me too. Especially the scenes in Gotham, which looked fake as hell.


Scenery-wise, I felt the Gotham skyline looked most striking...a good compromise between the cartoonishly Gothic look of Burton's Gotham and the somewhat dull realism of Nolan's Gotham.  I had a much bigger problem with the way the former Soviet nuclear reactor town looked.  Now *that* was bad.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> The changes the execs made to his movie or forced on him made his work worse. They shoehorned in the rest of the JL into BvS, they had Whendon pretty much undermine the entire first half of the movie, and they cut out 30 mins of bvs that made the ultimate edition at least marginally better than the theatrical cut. Im sure his work would have faired a bit better with the critics. A 60 or a 55 percent on RT is better than the 20s and 40s he got because of WBs meddling.


You make a fair point, but as the article focusing on the production problems with Justice League points out  that  Snyder was afforded the same creative freedom for BvS that Nolan had with his Batman trilogy.   There was very little creative handcuffs put on Snyder when he made BvS.  BvS(especially the Ultimate Edition) is his vision  through and through--for better or  worse.  Also  BvS was edited down because of the poor test screenings and frankly the Ultimate Edition might've fared much worse at the box office but even then that movie's central problem was the script which goes far beyond cutting a few scenes.

And I disagree that Whedon undermined the whole film, a lot of his additions like  the character work, humor, as well as that Batman scene at the start have been positively  received by audiences . If anything, he might've have saved the film from being worse than it was going to be. Their  biggest mistake was  sticking to the release date instead of delaying it,-which ironically enough  they did for both MOS and BvS respectively,  and sticking with the director when it became apparent his vision wasn't clicking with audiences in the way they'd like-  It's obvious  they needed more time to fine tune the film but they went with working with wasn't working(Snyder, the script) and releasing a product they weren't really satisfied with.

----------


## Myskin

> An interesting article from CBR: https://www.cbr.com/warner-bros-can-save-dceu/


All of these articles - and, quite frankly, every single fan analysis I have read these days - miss the general point. None of the DCEU movies really make sense. They don't have a real reason to be because they don't have a purpose. They don't know what the reason behind these characters should be, they don't contextualize them in a situation where their heroism would really make sense and would represent something unique and distinctive (except WW, which - as a movie - is decent and sometimes entertaining, but flawed nonetheless, especially in the third act). 
All of the Marvel movies make sense. I really don't care about them and sure as hell I don't belong to their target audience. But Marvel executives were very smart because they didn't just make mere adaptations of the stories of their characters: they created a whole universe with a distinctive tone where every hero takes one slot or more without overlapping with each other. That is, a universe with a strong military feel and where inventions and scientific creativity permeate every single aspect of life. 90% of Marvel movies are based on this premise and the ones which don't fall under this umbrella - GotG, for example - don't contradict the tone of the other movies in any possible way because they take place in completely different corners of the universe. And it's an interesting premise. It's fresh, it resonates well with audience, it makes sense within contemporary culture. And it works because the original blueprints for this universe - the Ultimate line, Ed Brubaker's Cap run - were very well-done and took a lot of efforts on the writers' part.

A lot of DC characters have been in need of a serious rethinking for decades IN THE BOOKS. Even Superman. ESPECIALLY Superman. If you take your fan-glasses off, you'll see that a lot of the criticism directed at Superman DOES make sense. It's a character who never had his own DKR or his own Ultimate restyling. Superman doesn't work that well in movies because he doesn't work in the comics. 10-15 years ago Cap America was a dated hero - heck, does anyone remember when Cap was part of the Marvel Knights line? And then Brubaker came. Millar came. Feige came. Russo brothers came. And now Cap is one the most popular heroes in the Marvel cinematic universe. In 10-15 years, kids will remember fondly Iron Man and Cap, not Superman.

The DCEU doesn't have a distinctive tone and sure as hell hasn't got a purpose. The gathering of the Justice League doesn't have a purpose because the characters are too flat or too hastily represented to really make their meeting meaningful. They are there just because that's the JL, and that's it. Batman's hatred towards Supes has no reason and resurrected Superman's sudden all-smiles and one-liners attitude has no reason. Luthor's villainy has no reason. Nothing has a reason, everything feels forced. How in the name of Jack Kirby and Alan Moore and everything's sacred can they expect to build a friggin' universe when there are ZERO fundaments? Just atomize everything and start it again, with some critical thinking about what you should do with these characters in the BOOKS, before the movies. Nothing in the current DCEU is good enough to deserve being saved and nothing can't be redone, better, with a different mindset.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> If they had left Snyder alone there would just have been Man Of Steel 1-3.


Yep, and honestly the DCU and Superman would have been better for it. Even if an MOS trilogy might have still been divisive, it could have been closed ended and been it's own thing as the Nolan Batman films are, and they could have either kept Cavill and use that version of Superman for an extended universe, or just come up with a new Superman for a DCEU not helmed by Snyder.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Well...that's only if you believe  Snyder was lying in interviews about the idea of putting Batman in the sequel being his.


He did mention using Batman, but his idea was a Superman movie with Batman in a supporting role. But the studio wanted an extended universe , they wanted to make a Batman vs. Superman film for years and wanted to do a death of Superman film and  a Justice league lead up film as well so eventually Snyder's Intention of a MOS 2 became Dawn of Justice.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> All of these articles - and, quite frankly, every single fan analysis I have read these days - miss the general point. None of the DCEU movies really make sense. They don't have a real reason to be because they don't have a purpose. They don't know what the reason behind these characters should be, they don't contextualize them in a situation where their heroism would really make sense and would represent something unique and distinctive (except WW, which - as a movie - is decent and sometimes entertaining, but flawed nonetheless, especially in the third act). 
> All of the Marvel movies make sense. I really don't care about them and sure as hell I don't belong to their target audience. But Marvel executives were very smart because they didn't just make mere adaptations of the stories of their characters: they created a whole universe with a distinctive tone where every hero takes one slot or more without overlapping with each other. That is, a universe with a strong military feel and where inventions and scientific creativity permeate every single aspect of life. 90% of Marvel movies are based on this premise and the ones which don't fall under this umbrella - GotG, for example - don't contradict the tone of the other movies in any possible way because they take place in completely different corners of the universe. And it's an interesting premise. It's fresh, it resonates well with audience, it makes sense within contemporary culture. And it works because the original blueprints for this universe - the Ultimate line, Ed Brubaker's Cap run - were very well-done and took a lot of efforts on the writers' part.
> 
> A lot of DC characters have been in need of a serious rethinking for decades IN THE BOOKS. Even Superman. ESPECIALLY Superman. If you take your fan-glasses off, you'll see that a lot of the criticism directed at Superman DOES make sense. It's a character who never had his own DKR or his own Ultimate restyling. Superman doesn't work that well in movies because he doesn't work in the comics. 10-15 years ago Cap America was a dated hero - heck, does anyone remember when Cap was part of the Marvel Knights line? And then Brubaker came. Millar came. Feige came. Russo brothers came. And now Cap is one the most popular heroes in the Marvel cinematic universe. In 10-15 years, kids will remember fondly Iron Man and Cap, not Superman.
> 
> The DCEU doesn't have a distinctive tone and sure as hell hasn't got a purpose. The gathering of the Justice League doesn't have a purpose because the characters are too flat or too hastily represented to really make their meeting meaningful. They are there just because that's the JL, and that's it. Batman's hatred towards Supes has no reason and resurrected Superman's sudden all-smiles and one-liners attitude has no reason. Luthor's villainy has no reason. Nothing has a reason, everything feels forced. How in the name of Jack Kirby and Alan Moore and everything's sacred can they expect to build a friggin' universe when there are ZERO fundaments? Just atomize everything and start it again, with some critical thinking about what you should do with these characters in the BOOKS, before the movies. Nothing in the current DCEU is good enough to deserve being saved and nothing can't be redone, better, with a different mindset.


The DCEU is not what we want it to be. That is just a fact. But if they pull the plug now, after everything they've invested, it'll be decades before we get any more DC cinematic ventures, let alone an interconnected universe.

Also, lets not take an issue that is essentially limited to the cinematic universe and try and use it as a launch pad to bash media that have nothing to do with the movies. What do you mean Superman doesn't work in the comics? His current run is one of the most acclaimed books we've seen out of DC in a while. He's had several well-known arcs and pivotal stories at the center of the DC Universe for decades. Not to mention there are acclaimed stories out of canon like All Star Superman, Kingdom Come, Red Son, Secret Identity, For All Seasons, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, the more recent American Alien, etc. Those are all very well known story arcs.

And of course there's also the fact that DC has been killing it on TV. I mean, if DC characters were really as out of touch as you're saying, their shows wouldn't be as loved as they are. And I may have my own issues with the CW shows and some of DC's other television outings, but there's no denying that they're successful on that front. Heck, even Marvel TV, after Iron Fist and Inhumans, should maybe take a page from DC TV.

The narrative that Superman and other DC characters are somehow an "outdated" character would require us to ignore pretty much all of that.

Remember how a few months ago, people were basically saying that Wonder Woman was the best superhero movie ever? I may not be the biggest fan of the DCEU's choices so far, and Im certainly no fan of the Justice League as its been presented in the DCEU, but let's not be knee-jerk reactionaries here. If Aquaman ends up being good, then the pendulum will swing right on back to "look how everything's going right for the DCEU."

----------


## Clark_Kent

> The editing.
> The CGI.
> The action scenes. 
> Even the continuity of JL in regard to the previous movie. Or even between single scenes. 
> I mean, we can investigate about the reasons behind the failure of the movie as much as we want, but when everything is said and done it's just a forgettable piece of cinematic garbage. It is almost in the same league with Spawn or Batman and Robin. It isn't worth the effort.


I wasn't looking to investigate anything. You said it was "confusing", so I was curious if you couldn't follow the plot or something. I thought the action scenes were shot well enough to follow, and the CGI (while rough) was easy to see what was going on. 

Now, what you meant to say was "I didn't like ____", but since you said "confusing" I thought I'd ask.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> A far more feasible and rational plan than most other "How to Save the DCEU" online articles.


I found this one more insightful:

http://heroicuniverse.com/dc-films-go-things-not/

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I really like the idea of more focused lower budget movies, particularly when it comes to Deathstroke and Nightwing.

Heck, even Batman. A good, reasonably priced Batman should almost be able to subsidize stuff like Aquaman and Shazam, which aren't as big draws but should have higher budgets.

----------


## Soubhagya

John Campea has strong opinions about reboot.

----------


## Myskin

> Dude. Take a step back. Relax.


Uhm? I'm very relaxed. When I wrote "Take your fan-glasses off" I was not referring directly to you, just to be clear. It was more of a general indication, so to speak.




> The DCEU is not what we want it to be. That is just a fact. But if they pull the plug now, after everything they've invested, it'll be decades before we get any more DC cinematic ventures, let alone an interconnected universe.


Pull the plug. Now. Nobody knows what will happen if they do. Maybe there will be no DCEU movies for decades. Maybe Disney will buy DC. Maybe they will start anew with a different state of mind, à la Batman Begins. There are already too many trashy movies around (and too many superhero movies, too) for the DCEU to add even more.




> Also, lets not take an issue that is essentially limited to the cinematic universe and try and use it as a launch pad to bash media that have nothing to do with the movies. What do you mean Superman doesn't work in the comics?


This is an extremely old subject which a lot of posters (in particular 7-8 of them) on this forum dealt with in extremely long threads for months if not years. If you've been around CBR forums for some time you probably have already met one of these threads - I am not referring to generic conversations about Superman, but very long and interesting debates about the role of this character in contemporary pop culture. One of the general points can be summarized as it follows: Batman is extremely popular nowadays because decades ago (in the 1980s) writers, artists and directors began a very long path with required a lot of critical thinking and reworking until every element of the Batman universe worked as a functional, coherent clockwork, while Superman never had something on the same scale and that's one of the reason he isn't as popular as it used to be in - for example - the 1950s. By the way, I was a Superman collector for almost 16 years and I've bought literally everything Superman-related which really counts (just to clarify that I know what I am talking about) for a lot of time, even if I have reached a point in my life where I can quietly live without superheroes in any possible form or shape (especially since there are a lot of different, and better, forms of entertainment).

----------


## inisideguy

Honestly people are ridiculous. With the negative attitude everyone has about this whole DC universe stuff, maybe they just get rid of making DC movies. The obsession people have over this is just bizarre. Measuring contests against marvel. This franchise that franchise. Jesus. Reboot don't reboot, on and on. If they don't make money they will reboot or maybe not make movies.  There is so much DC content out there good and bad now its just crazy how people just look at the bad all the time.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> He did mention using Batman, but his idea was a Superman movie with Batman in a supporting role. But the studio wanted an extended universe , they wanted to make a Batman vs. Superman film for years and wanted to do a death of Superman film and  a Justice league lead up film as well so eventually Snyder's Intention of a MOS 2 became Dawn of Justice.


I've read different. Here's what I gathered:  Snyder was deciding who'd Superman would fight in the sequel he was developing and eventually he  proposed that  Batman be the next opponent that Superman dukes it out with--which seems to imply Batman's role was always more than a supporting role.  Whatever Snyder's initial intention was all evidence points to him changing it  in order to  fast track  a  crossover versus film with Batman.  Warner's might've been thinking along the same lines but Snyder definitely went along and wasn't against the idea or he  would've left.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Pull the plug. Now. Nobody knows what will happen if they do. Maybe there will be no DCEU movies for decades. Maybe Disney will buy DC. Maybe they will start anew with a different state of mind, à la Batman Begins. There are already too many trashy movies around (and too many superhero movies, too) for the DCEU to add even more.


Again, just six months ago, people were going nuts over Wonder Woman and were like "DC brought us the greatest movie ever." So, as much as I don't like some of the movies in the DCEU, BvS especially, I still think pulling the plug would do more damage than good. It would project weakness in the studio and it would make the entire DC Universe into more of a laughing stock. Then we may literally never get any more DC movies. The only solution, IMO, is just to make more good movies, which hopefully now that certain elements have been removed from the DCEU, they can finally get to doing. Again, if Aquaman is a good or even passable movie, then people will be hungry for more.

Though, having said that, I would be up for a DoFP style rearrangement of continuity, where maybe we can finally go back to more classic iterations of DC characters.




> This is an extremely old subject which a lot of posters (in particular 7-8 of them) on this forum dealt with in extremely long threads for months if not years. If you've been around CBR forums for some time you probably have already met one of these threads - I am not referring to generic conversations about Superman, but very long and interesting debates about the role of this character in contemporary pop culture. One of the general points can be summarized as it follows: Batman is extremely popular nowadays because decades ago (in the 1980s) writers, artists and directors began a very long path with required a lot of critical thinking and reworking until every element of the Batman universe worked as a functional, coherent clockwork, while Superman never had something on the same scale and that's one of the reason he isn't as popular as it used to be in - for example - the 1950s. By the way, I was a Superman collectors for almost 16 years and I've bought literally everything Superman-related which really counts (just to clarify that I know what I am talking about) for a lot of time, even if I have reached a point in my life where I can quietly live without superheroes in any possible form or shape (especially since there are a lot of different, and better, forms of entertainment).


Can't say I've ever seen anybody really say that Superman at his very core was out of touch with modern society on a comic book forum, no. I've seen people express dislike for certain aspects of the franchise, yes, but never anything as far as saying "Superman needs to be completely changed and re-thought top to bottom." Also, the Batman writers of the 80s didn't really completely and irrevocably change Batman, no. In fact, they brought Batman more closely to his roots because, remember, he started out as a pulp noir character. Year One and the like was just a return to that part of the character's story, which actually started in the 60s with the O'Neil/Adams run.

And remember that DC tried to completely reinvent Superman in the New 52. Needless to say, it didn't go over so well, and they had to bring back a more classic version of the character with more classic continuity to *literally* replace the new, "edgier" Superman. Most of everyone recognizes and loves the classic attributes of the character. In fact, one of the main complaints lobbed against DCEU Superman stem from the fact that he *isn't* more like classic iterations of the character. Though, I think he might slowly be turning more into a classic version of himself.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I've read different. Here's what I gathered:  Snyder was deciding who'd Superman would fight in the sequel he was developing and eventually he  proposed that  Batman be the next opponent that Superman dukes it out with--which seems to imply Batman's role was always more than a supporting role.  Whatever Snyder's initial intention was all evidence points to him changing it  in order to  fast track  a  crossover versus film with Batman.  Warner's might've been thinking along the same lines but Snyder definitely went along and wasn't against the idea or he  would've left.


I remember him saying in an interview that while he was making MOS, he envisioned an after credits scene in either MOS 1 or 2 ( don't remember which) that had someone drive a dump truck full of Kryptonite to Wayne manor as being a tease for the next film. He said the idea snowballed from there. There were rumblings right after MOS opened that Warners was pressuring Snyder to include Batman and use an MOS sequel to set up a connected universe. 

Yes,Snyder may have been given freedom while making BvS, but it's not clear whether or not the idea for what BvS was decided to become rests completely on Snyder or the WB execs or both.most evidence points to that Snyder originally signed to do a Superman trilogy, and that plan changed sometime after MOS was deep into production

----------


## Myskin

> Again, just six months ago, people were going nuts over Wonder Woman and were like "DC brought us the greatest movie ever."


As I said in my previous post, I never thought that WW is the greatest superhero movie ever. I don't even think that it is a particularly good movie, but to be fair I think that NONE of the works in the current superhero wave is particularly good (well, among the ones I've seen). What I am interested in is the cultural process and the productive method. People's tastes constantly change, but as far as I am concerned I am sure that literally nothing from DC's part is, or could be vaguely comparable to what Marvel (or Fox, for that matter) are currently doing with their characters. 




> So, as much as I don't like some of the movies in the DCEU, BvS especially, I still think pulling the plug would do more damage than good. It would project weakness in the studio and it would make the entire DC Universe into more of a laughing stock. Then we may literally never get any more DC movies.


Pull the plug.




> Can't say I've ever seen anybody really say that Superman at his very core was out of touch with modern society on a comic book forum, no.


You really missed one of the most clever and interesting threads in the history of CBR, IMHO. I am serious. Very clever people like Ascended, Superlad, Flash Gordon, Dispenser of Truth and many more proposed very creative and interesting ideas on the subject. Unfortunately, that particular thread now belongs to a dead version of the forum (even if I saved it on my HD).




> And remember that DC tried to completely reinvent Superman in the New 52. Needless to say, it didn't go over so well, and they had to bring back a more classic version of the character with more classic continuity to *literally* replace the new, "edgier" Superman.


The "rethinking" Superman needs doesn't have anything to do with any "edgy" version of the Superman and, as far as I am concerned, it doesn't have to do with the New52.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> As I said in my previous post, I never thought that WW is the greatest superhero movie ever. I don't even think that it is a particularly good movie, but to be fair I think that NONE of the works in the current superhero wave is particularly good (well, among the ones I've seen). What I am interested in is the cultural process and the productive method. People's tastes constantly change, but as far as I am concerned I am sure that literally nothing from DC's part is, or could be vaguely comparable to what Marvel (or Fox, for that matter) are currently doing with their characters.


Wonder Woman was as good as any Marvel film and, in some ways, better than a good amount of them. And I'm not saying that to bash Marvel, just to say that DC/WB is able to compete with Marvel and Fox when they have their sh!$ together.

Also, Fox seriously? After how Fantastic Four was so fantastically mismanaged? Remember how that film got a total of 9% on RT, which makes even BvS look like a masterpiece?




> Pull the plug.


Pulling the plug would be the equivalent of DC telling the world "We give up. Marvel really is just inherently better than us."




> You really missed one of the most clever and interesting threads in the history of CBR, IMHO. I am serious. Very clever people like Ascended, Superlad, Flash Gordon, Dispenser of Truth and many more proposed very creative and interesting ideas on the subject. Unfortunately, that particular thread now belongs to a dead version of the forum (even if I saved it on my HD).


I'll have to take your word for it, but, while I respect people's opinions, I can't say I share them in this case. IMO, the Superman comics we're currently getting are probably the best Superman has been in a long while. What Superman really ended up needing was embracing his long and storied history, not running away from it.

----------


## Soubhagya

> All of these articles - and, quite frankly, every single fan analysis I have read these days - miss the general point. None of the DCEU movies really make sense. They don't have a real reason to be because they don't have a purpose. They don't know what the reason behind these characters should be, they don't contextualize them in a situation where their heroism would really make sense and would represent something unique and distinctive (except WW, which - as a movie - is decent and sometimes entertaining, but flawed nonetheless, especially in the third act). 
> All of the Marvel movies make sense. I really don't care about them and sure as hell I don't belong to their target audience. But Marvel executives were very smart because they didn't just make mere adaptations of the stories of their characters: they created a whole universe with a distinctive tone where every hero takes one slot or more without overlapping with each other. That is, a universe with a strong military feel and where inventions and scientific creativity permeate every single aspect of life. 90% of Marvel movies are based on this premise and the ones which don't fall under this umbrella - GotG, for example - don't contradict the tone of the other movies in any possible way because they take place in completely different corners of the universe. And it's an interesting premise. It's fresh, it resonates well with audience, it makes sense within contemporary culture. And it works because the original blueprints for this universe - the Ultimate line, Ed Brubaker's Cap run - were very well-done and took a lot of efforts on the writers' part.
> 
> A lot of DC characters have been in need of a serious rethinking for decades IN THE BOOKS. Even Superman. ESPECIALLY Superman. If you take your fan-glasses off, you'll see that a lot of the criticism directed at Superman DOES make sense. It's a character who never had his own DKR or his own Ultimate restyling. Superman doesn't work that well in movies because he doesn't work in the comics. 10-15 years ago Cap America was a dated hero - heck, does anyone remember when Cap was part of the Marvel Knights line? And then Brubaker came. Millar came. Feige came. Russo brothers came. And now Cap is one the most popular heroes in the Marvel cinematic universe. In 10-15 years, kids will remember fondly Iron Man and Cap, not Superman.
> 
> The DCEU doesn't have a distinctive tone and sure as hell hasn't got a purpose. The gathering of the Justice League doesn't have a purpose because the characters are too flat or too hastily represented to really make their meeting meaningful. They are there just because that's the JL, and that's it. Batman's hatred towards Supes has no reason and resurrected Superman's sudden all-smiles and one-liners attitude has no reason. Luthor's villainy has no reason. Nothing has a reason, everything feels forced. How in the name of Jack Kirby and Alan Moore and everything's sacred can they expect to build a friggin' universe when there are ZERO fundaments? Just atomize everything and start it again, with some critical thinking about what you should do with these characters in the BOOKS, before the movies. Nothing in the current DCEU is good enough to deserve being saved and nothing can't be redone, better, with a different mindset.


I agree with you. The thinking put behind Marvel is marvelous. (Pardon the pun). They introduced magic in Doctor Strange. After so many films and taking so much care. Hats off to Marvel. DC simply wanted to make Justice League. And that's it. For this goal they made things. Putting the horse before the cart. The fundamentals are wrong. 

So, you kill Superman so that Justice League is formed. Ok. By this you adapt 'The Death Of Superman'. Ok. You make Batman a killer and just want him to kill Superman because there is one percent chance and blah blah blah. Ok. You made Gotham and Metropolis twin cities so that changing locations make sense. Ok. You make Wonder Woman active since WW 1. Ok. WW walked away from humanity. Ok. I can go on. The fundamentals are messy. JL is there because it is there. 

However, i can't see changes happening with books now. (If it is necessary as you mention it). Changes are made naturally when there is a need for it. Otherwise, changes are difficult and may not stick. A progressive change which is done step by step is more viable then a complete overhauling.

However that complete change can be done when there is a need for it. When you are in crisis you need rethinking. JL's failure is a suitable time to make major changes in films. Its not possible in books now as they are doing well. But if you get creative and talented people in the film division who are given necessary power it can be done. It may even tickle down to books if they make the books better.

----------


## Myskin

> Also, Fox seriously? After how Fantastic Four was so fantastically mismanaged? Remember how that film got a total of 9% on RT, which makes even BvS look like a masterpiece?


Fox isn't just F4. I don't even think that F4 is really representative of what Fox is doing with their properties. Deadpool, Logan, Legion, New Mutants are.




> Pulling the plug would be the equivalent of DC telling the world "We give up. Marvel really is just inherently better than us."


It is. Pull the plug. And start anew when you have better ideas.





> IMO, the Superman comics we're currently getting are probably the best Superman has been in a long while.


I read some of those issues and I found them terrible. Personally tastes aside, the current run means zero in terms of meaningfulness of the character within the current, or future, cultural context.




> What Superman really ended up needing was embracing his long and storied history, not running away from it.


Who said that Superman should run away from his history? He shouldn't use it as a refuge, ether.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

Who all has heard the latest rumors that Kevin Smith read out on his show about what was cut/extended/modified from Snyder's JL? 

Oh. My. God. 

It goes beyond what we've read so far (or at least what I've read). And apparently most of it was confirmed by a woman in the audience who saw Snyder's first screening as well. 

I know this thread says no spoilers, so if the mods want to modify my post, please go for it. But, I wanted to throw this out there. Below were just some of the scenes I remembered hearing from his podcast thing, there was a lot more. 

WB really needs to do right by the Snyder fans, and other fans who wanted to see this vision finish out and release what was left of Snyder's original cut. I'll pay $100 to see it at this point. 

*spoilers:*

We would have seen Vulko, Mera, and Arthur conversing in Atlantis.
We would have seen Victor's accident. 
We would have seen Darkseid.
We would have seen DS breaking Lex out of Arkham.
We would have seen more Superman scenes.
We would have seen the codex referenced again with Superman's resurrection.
We would have seen another Knightmare sequence that would have tied directly to Batman's in BvS, this time involving Superman being tempted (but snapping out of it) by Steppenwolf.
We would have seen Killowog and Tomar Rey. 
And many other scenes that Snyder developed… 

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Who all has heard the latest rumors that Kevin Smith read out on his show about what was cut/extended/modified from Snyder's JL? 
> 
> Oh. My. God. 
> 
> It goes beyond what we've read so far (or at least what I've read). And apparently most of it was confirmed by a woman in the audience who saw Snyder's first screening as well. 
> 
> I know this thread says no spoilers, so if the mods want to modify my post, please go for it. But, I wanted to throw this out there. Below were just some of the scenes I remembered hearing from his podcast thing, there was a lot more. 
> 
> WB really needs to do right by the Snyder fans, and other fans who wanted to see this vision finish out and release what was left of Snyder's original cut. I'll pay $100 to see it at this point. 
> ...


Can't say about execution but I would probably love all of that. Although I did hear there was a blatant Injustice-inspired sequence i would not have liked but it's hard to separate the validity of the rumors.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Who all has heard the latest rumors that Kevin Smith read out on his show about what was cut/extended/modified from Snyder's JL? 
> 
> Oh. My. God. 
> 
> It goes beyond what we've read so far (or at least what I've read). And apparently most of it was confirmed by a woman in the audience who saw Snyder's first screening as well. 
> 
> I know this thread says no spoilers, so if the mods want to modify my post, please go for it. But, I wanted to throw this out there. Below were just some of the scenes I remembered hearing from his podcast thing, there was a lot more. 
> 
> WB really needs to do right by the Snyder fans, and other fans who wanted to see this vision finish out and release what was left of Snyder's original cut. I'll pay $100 to see it at this point. 
> ...


Holy CRAP! 

Aside from the Darkseid appearance, everything else sounds like it would be amazing. I just don't want too early a reveal for Darkseid. 

WB? You done effed up, and you'd BETTER make this up to us with the Blu-Ray release.

Oh, and while you're at it? Fire just about all your execs and get yourself a "Kevin Feige" to run these movies! If it's not Johns, then find freaking SOMEBODY!

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> The show doesn't hold up well it was good for what it was at the time and Sherman Howard's Lex and Michael J. Pollard as Mr. Mxyzptlk were highlights for me though.


Today I can see some cheesy acting, dated special effects, the annoying friend of Clark not-named-Pete Ross etc, but as a kid it was a must-watch. I wasn't reading superhero comics at the time and that show introduced me to many wonderful pulp, sci-fi concepts that fascinated me. And another highlight for me was that old Superman from a parallel world who had brought up Luthor to be a good guy and led humankind towards a utopia. The guy who portrayed the old Superman did an excellent work as well. 

Whatever its shortcomings, it was a big factor in my falling in love with Superman's mythos.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Holy CRAP! 
> 
> Aside from the Darkseid appearance, everything else sounds like it would be amazing. I just don't want too early a reveal for Darkseid. 
> 
> WB? You done effed up, and you'd BETTER make this up to us with the Blu-Ray release.
> 
> Oh, and while you're at it? Fire just about all your execs and get yourself a "Kevin Feige" to run these movies! If it's not Johns, then find freaking SOMEBODY!


A woman in the audience who signed a NDA confirmed the report but couldn't go into details also

*spoilers:*
 Bruce talks with Diana about his guilt over killing, More Alfred scenes including Superman going to Batcave and getting his costume, Flash saves Iris, Longer Gordon scenes, Aquaman telling Mera he'd come home with her, Flash has a P.S. with Iris, Cyborg was going to die in some early cuts but Bruce and Barry would vow to bring him back, Darkseid kills Steppenwolf and wants to meet the Kryptonian, a Lois, Perry, and Clark scene, The Amazons and Green Lanterns had dialogue in the Flashback scene, and the Mother Boxes held the essence's of Steppenwolf's mother and when brought together he could use their power to over through Darkseid. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Lex Luthor

> You make a fair point, but as the article focusing on the production problems with Justice League points out  that  Snyder was afforded the same creative freedom for BvS that Nolan had with his Batman trilogy.   There was very little creative handcuffs put on Snyder when he made BvS.  BvS(especially the Ultimate Edition) is his vision  through and through--for better or  worse.  Also  BvS was edited down because of the poor test screenings and frankly the Ultimate Edition might've fared much worse at the box office but even then that movie's central problem was the script which goes far beyond cutting a few scenes.
> 
> And I disagree that Whedon undermined the whole film, a lot of his additions like  the character work, humor, as well as that Batman scene at the start have been positively  received by audiences . If anything, he might've have saved the film from being worse than it was going to be. Their  biggest mistake was  sticking to the release date instead of delaying it,-which ironically enough  they did for both MOS and BvS respectively,  and sticking with the director when it became apparent his vision wasn't clicking with audiences in the way they'd like-  It's obvious  they needed more time to fine tune the film but they went with working with wasn't working(Snyder, the script) and releasing a product they weren't really satisfied with.


 What article? 

I disagree I think his additions contradicted some of the things we learn from earlier movies and the character arcs of Wonder Woman, Flash, and Cyborg kind of lead to no where because of this Superman basically doing everything for them that they spent the entire movie learning how to do and coming to terms with. I agree they should have delayed it and should have acted much smarter but their main focus was money and they didn't scrambling until too late so instead of a decent movie we got a bad movie promising to change the franchise instead of just changing.

----------


## Bossace

Those cut scenes sound amazing, give me a 3:30 hour version like the ultimate watchmen and I’ll watch it happily.

My only concern with that was the movie and that scene mentioning cyborgs accident taking place after super died makes no sense because we already saw Vic being formed as cyborg in that email scene in BVS.

Also I can’t get over how you go in pitch black at night to resurrect Superman spend 5 minutes doing it then when he wakes up and jumps out BOOM mid afternoon I guess Superman did bring a new Bright age of heroes and moved time forward? They should have really noticed those 2 things with cyborg and the resurrection.

But if I can get a Snyder super cut ASAP I’d be happy.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Holy CRAP! 
> 
> Aside from the Darkseid appearance, everything else sounds like it would be amazing. I just don't want too early a reveal for Darkseid. 
> 
> WB? You done effed up, and you'd BETTER make this up to us with the Blu-Ray release.
> 
> Oh, and while you're at it? Fire just about all your execs and get yourself a "Kevin Feige" to run these movies! If it's not Johns, then find freaking SOMEBODY!


At the very, VERY, least...give us a crap ton of deleted scenes. I'd much rather have an extended cut, be it Snyder's alternate version or just a longer version of what we got, but I could settle for a vast deleted scenes section. My video editor & MoS/BvS soundtracks are ready to go for my custom edit if need be.

Even unfinished scenes on greenscreen could be fixed up as long as the camera work was done...wouldn't be hard to find backgrounds.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Those cut scenes sound amazing, give me a 3:30 hour version like the ultimate watchmen and I’ll watch it happily.
> 
> My only concern with that was the movie and that scene mentioning cyborgs accident taking place after super died makes no sense because we already saw Vic being formed as cyborg in that email scene in BVS.
> 
> Also I can’t get over how you go in pitch black at night to resurrect Superman spend 5 minutes doing it then when he wakes up and jumps out BOOM mid afternoon I guess Superman did bring a new Bright age of heroes and moved time forward? They should have really noticed those 2 things with cyborg and the resurrection.
> 
> But if I can get a Snyder super cut ASAP I’d be happy.


Now while some of the stuff wasn't finished there was a cut of the film with at least some of those scenes because the woman in the Smith audience said she saw the original cut and the theatrical cut and preferred the original cut.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Those cut scenes sound amazing, give me a 3:30 hour version like the ultimate watchmen and I’ll watch it happily.
> 
> My only concern with that was the movie and that scene mentioning cyborgs accident taking place after super died makes no sense because we already saw Vic being formed as cyborg in that email scene in BVS.
> 
> Also I can’t get over how you go in pitch black at night to resurrect Superman spend 5 minutes doing it then when he wakes up and jumps out BOOM mid afternoon I guess Superman did bring a new Bright age of heroes and moved time forward? They should have really noticed those 2 things with cyborg and the resurrection.
> 
> But if I can get a Snyder super cut ASAP I’d be happy.


I'm trying to remember...did the movie specifically say Vic was created the night Superman died? Or just that "that was when the box woke up"? 

If it's the latter, I would assume Silas somehow activated a dormant box and Vic was saved (as we saw in BvS), but shen Superman died the box "woke up" and sent out the signal. That was my understanding anyway (Cyborg's creation & the box waking up being 2 seperate occasions), but I could be misremembering.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Today I can see some cheesy acting, dated special effects, the annoying friend of Clark not-named-Pete Ross etc, but as a kid it was a must-watch. I wasn't reading superhero comics at the time and that show introduced me to many wonderful pulp, sci-fi concepts that fascinated me. And another highlight for me was that old Superman from a parallel world who had brought up Luthor to be a good guy and led humankind towards a utopia. The guy who portrayed the old Superman did an excellent work as well. 
> 
> Whatever its shortcomings, it was a big factor in my falling in love with Superman's mythos.


My memory is hazy, but was that the 2-parter where Superboy traveled to other dimensions (or Earths, whichever) and met a version of himself who had killed Lex, and basically stopped being Superboy? He showed up in a black leather jacket, and I always assumed it was a partial inspiration for Conner's design for Reign of the Supermen. He also met a dictator version of himself who ruled the planet. It was my favorite series of eps of the show at the time. 

A lot of the effects are dated now, but the takeoffs & landings still look superb. I think they had the same flying rigs from the Reeve films.

----------


## Bossace

I’m also curious with JL at 492 million just about right now where it will end up box office wise with 2 more weekends til SW. it’s projected to make 15 million this weekend and have a close fight with Wonder (projected to also make 15 million) for 2nd place behind coco with a projected 23, this makes 700 a very far walk of its even possible

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Fox isn't just F4. I don't even think that F4 is really representative of what Fox is doing with their properties. Deadpool, Logan, Legion, New Mutants are.


Still, F4 was a spectacular failure. But, still Fox also gave us "gems" like X-Men: Last Stand, Wolverine Origins, Apocalypse,  etc. They don't let a bad movie get them down and then they deliver gold with films like Logan. I don't see why DC and WB should approach it any differently when they already gave us a critically acclaimed film in Wonder Woman and have other projects either wrapped or in late stages of development.

Yes, JL sucked, but Aquaman is still coming. Its done and its 100% going to be in the same universe. Wonder Woman 2 is definitely coming if only because they'd be idiots to that leave *that* money on the table. Let's just wait and see how that goes before declaring it all dead.

Just to be clear, I'm no fan of the DCEU films we've gotten so far, except for Wonder Woman, and I absolutely cannot stand some of the movies we've gotten from it. But, IMO, it would just be one huge embarrassment for WB to pull the plug and I honestly don't think they'd ever live it down. And *any* hope of a shared universe would be gone as well. So, basically, while I really wish this wasn't the foundation we were working with, its what we have and what we're stuck with.

They just need to *do better* and acclaim will follow.




> It is. Pull the plug. And start anew when you have better ideas.


So, are you saying that Marvel characters are just inherently better than DC characters?




> I read some of those issues and I found them terrible. Personally tastes aside, the current run means zero in terms of meaningfulness of the character within the current, or future, cultural context.


Personal tastes aside, its a critically lauded run. And regardless, there's literally dozens of famous Superman stories.




> Who said that Superman should run away from his history? He shouldn't use it as a refuge, ether.


Well, who said he is using it as a refuge? Acknowledging that he has a past as a character, instead of starting all his relationships and continuity from square one, is not "using it as refuge." Its just how almost all fiction is written.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Still, F4 was a spectacular failure. But, still Fox also gave us "gems" like X-Men: Last Stand, Wolverine Origins, Apocalypse,  etc. They don't let a bad movie get them down and then they deliver gold with films like Logan. *I don't see why DC and WB should approach it any differently when they already gave us a critically acclaimed film in Wonder Woman and already have other projects either wrapped or in late stages of development.*
> 
> 
> 
> So, are you saying that Marvel characters are just inherently better than DC characters? Is that the point you're making?
> 
> 
> 
> Personal tastes aside, its a critically lauded run. Also, neglecting to mention the literally dozens of famous Superman stories.
> ...


Not to butt in, but I absolutely agree with the bolded. WB could easily do a Flashpoint reset, ala DoFP, but I really hope they don't. JL, for all its faults, ended with a massive course correction / status quo for the future, and is the correction that a lot of people have been begging for. So no sense in tossing out what's come already, the universe has a foundation already. A lot of people don't care for that foundation, but there are a lot of people who don't like Batman: Year One, you know? But you don't have to enjoy Year One to enjoy what comes after. WB just needs to make good movies going forward, and the audience will come. Everyone is saying JL's #'s are due to BvS, but SS did fantastic. And after that, WW knocked it out of the park. If BvS was that big of a hit on audience perception, then SS would have bombed and maybe even WW. 

Anyway, my 2 cents. If WB doesn't like how things have gone, just keep moving forward. Leave the foundation, even if it's rarely mentioned again. 

*Note*: it's hard for me to say things like "course corrected", or "make better movies", because I'm so in love with our current DCEU...unfortunately, to quote Mr. Kent: "Most of the world doesn't share your opinion." I recognize that as much as I love the current DCEU, changes must be made if I hope to see more movies...so if they must do things differently, I won't bow out like a lot of supporters claim they will. Besides, who's to say I won't love the future just as much as I love the present? Save Flashpoint for when all of the actors have become too old to play immortal characters. 

Ok, carry on, and good luck. That myskin is a tough nut to crack! Makes for fun reading.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

Just to be clear, I'm no fan of the DCEU films, but DC's reputation would take a huge hit if they had to trash their cinematic universe. Like I said, do a DoFP style retconning if necessary. If we have to literally say that the characters' memories of the first Justice League movie and of BvS were wiped from their minds, then do that. But throwing in the towel would essentially be the equivalent of saying your characters aren't good enough to hack it.

Maybe they should just forget BvS and Justice League happened and we can get a proper JL movie with Martian Manhunter and Starro instead of Cyborg and Steppenwolf. Just say Cyborg went back to the Titans.

Or, hey, maybe the JL could...take a break and the DCEU can focus on solo movies and other teams for a while. Maybe a Titans film could be the answer or, who knows, a Doom Patrol film. Maybe WB can pull off what Fox hasn't been able to and make a good FF film, except calling them the Doom Patrol.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Doom Patrol isn’t really the DC equivalent to Fantastic Four. That’d be Challengers Of the Unknown. Doom Patrol is more  X-Men than Fantastic Four.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Why would ppl want to see Starro?

----------


## Ascended

> Why would ppl want to see Starro?


Dude, done right that would be the most amazing team-up movie yet.

You ever read Morrison's Starro story in his JLA?

Imagine a Aliens pastiche with face-hugging alien parasites spreading over the world. The heroes can't find the fodder like they do your standard Chitari/Ultron drone/parademon/etc., these are innocent people the heroes have to try not to hurt. That's a huge limitation. What if a hero's loved one gets infected? It gets personal. What if one of the heroes gets infected? Perfect drama-fueling excuse for a quick hero-on-hero fight that can end with the starro being ripped off. Or remain a problem until the end of the movie and be part of the third act climax.

Horror. Thriller. Action. Drama. 

Who *wouldn't* want to see that?

 :Smile:

----------


## Jokerz79

> Why would ppl want to see Starro?


Starro would be a great for the Justice League especially in the Snyderverse do a Invasion of the Body Snatchers type story it could even be used to explain some of the fear and mistrust of Superman. That Starro feared him and was corrupting humanity against him and creating a governmental witch hunt for him.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Doom Patrol isn’t really the DC equivalent to Fantastic Four. That’d be Challengers Of the Unknown. Doom Patrol is more  X-Men than Fantastic Four.


Eh, The Doom Patrol was/is basically like a halfway point between the FF and the X-Men. I mean, Robotman and Thing are two very similar characters. Plus, of course, the fact that their powers seem to be awfully similar to the FF's individual members'.

I think that Doom Patrol could actually make an awesome movie. Sort of like exploiting the family dynamics that Fantastic Four are known for...but *much* more dysfunctional, if only because of the reveal that the Chief was the one who actually caused the individual accidents that turned them into freaks.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Starro would be a great for the Justice League especially in the Snyderverse do a Invasion of the Body Snatchers type story it could even be used to explain some of the fear and mistrust of Superman. That Starro feared him and was corrupting humanity against him and creating a governmental witch hunt for him.


Also? It's an alien invasion story of a completely different color. Concerns are mounting that fans are getting tired of alien invasion stories in which the heroes defeat the invasion by punching them? Starro can play the subtle game. Your Body Snatchers analogy is quite apt. Done right, it would be a tense thriller in which the fear of the unknown comes fully into play. 

It would be a shockingly original story from the audience's perspective. A team of high-powered heroes with no visible enemy to punch? Having to investigate what's going on? Batman would definitely get his time to shine. This story begs for him to get his World's Greatest Detective on. There's been nothing quite like that in movies for a very long time. 

Yeah, I'm completely onboard for a Starro story.

----------


## Soubhagya

How many Harley Quinn films do we need? Not that all of them are happening. But it shows how clueless they are. Four? You've got to be kidding me.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...quinn-projects

----------


## Bossace

> How many Harley Quinn films do we need? Not that all of them are happening. But it shows how clueless they are. Four? You've got to be kidding me.
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...quinn-projects


I guess the DCEU should just be the WWHQCU at this point if that’s the case.

----------


## Frontier

> How many Harley Quinn films do we need? Not that all of them are happening. But it shows how clueless they are. Four? You've got to be kidding me.
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...quinn-projects


That's a whole lot of Harley's  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Also? It's an alien invasion story of a completely different color. Concerns are mounting that fans are getting tired of alien invasion stories in which the heroes defeat the invasion by punching them? Starro can play the subtle game. Your Body Snatchers analogy is quite apt. Done right, it would be a tense thriller in which the fear of the unknown comes fully into play. 
> 
> It would be a shockingly original story from the audience's perspective. A team of high-powered heroes with no visible enemy to punch? Having to investigate what's going on? Batman would definitely get his time to shine. This story begs for him to get his World's Greatest Detective on. There's been nothing quite like that in movies for a very long time. 
> 
> Yeah, I'm completely onboard for a Starro story.


Man, imagine the possibilities! You could even have the Legion of Doom involved and maybe have them team up with the JL to stop Starro. Imagine Lex and Bruce and Clark having to work together to save their team mates. Do some things Marvel hasn't done yet. 

I think someone made a good point a couple pages ago when it was pointed out that the promotional material  really didn't do enough to give people incentive to go see this movie. I mean, there was no hook to grab the general audience. I mean the geek audience came out. That's where the 94 million came from. The general audience though? Most saw the commercials and trailers and thought " heroes teaming up to stop an alien invasion? Sounds like an Avengers rip off. I'll wait until it comes to Blu-ray and save up for Star Wars next month". MOS had a hook. ( A new approach to Superman! ) BvS had a hook ( the Trinity on screen together for the first time!) WW had a hook ( first major motion picture featuring the premeire female superhero!) Hell, even Suicide Squad had a hook ( team up of bad guys! Margot Robbie cheesecake!) JL? Not much to hook the larger audience .

Yeah, BvS fallout probably knocked about 10-15 million off the opening weekend max. No small chunk of change for sure, but there are a host of reasons why JL failed to kick off.  It was a perfect storm of mediocrity, poor release timing, controversy and rushing to meet a deadline that should have been pushed back given the circumstances and pure old fashioned greed that led to the result we have.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I just want to see Brainiac first.

----------


## Soubhagya

The irony.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#73f3f9c63c8e

It might still make more. But where is DCEU headed?

----------


## byrd156

> Campea has been a DCEU critic for a long time, but there's gotta be credibility to this.
> 
> This video is from Dave the Film Junkee. He's a huge DC/Zack Snyder fan (in this very video, he shamelessly refers to himself as a Zack Snyder shill) and like half his videos are about defending the DCEU and shooting down "This movie is a MESS" rumors. 
> 
> If he's this angry, then there's gotta be some truth to this story. 
> 
> Fair warning? He uses a fair bit of language, so if you're sensitive, don't click.


Campea has been a fan of the DCEU since day one, he just doesn't bury his head from the big issues of these movies.

----------


## byrd156

> Eh, The Doom Patrol was/is basically like a halfway point between the FF and the X-Men. I mean, Robotman and Thing are two very similar characters. Plus, of course, the fact that their powers seem to be awfully similar to the FF's individual members'.
> 
> I think that Doom Patrol could actually make an awesome movie. Sort of like exploiting the family dynamics that Fantastic Four are known for...but *much* more dysfunctional, if only because of the reveal that the Chief was the one who actually caused the individual accidents that turned them into freaks.


I'm in the process of working on a Doom Patrol script that I hope to pitch to WB/DC someday. I feel that is potential that DC is just ignoring along with the JSA.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I'm in the process of working on a Doom Patrol script that I hope to pitch to WB/DC someday. I feel that is potential that DC is just ignoring along with the JSA.


Now that is a movie I’d watch!!

----------


## byrd156

> Now that is a movie I’d watch!!


I don't believe it will get picked up but I'll keep trying along with other DC characters that are getting neglected by DC.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I don't believe it will get picked up but I'll keep trying along with other DC characters that are getting neglected by DC.


Hey, you can’t help but try. And you never know. But either way, I think it’s awesome that you’re at least trying to bring it to life.

----------


## byrd156

> Hey, you can’t help but try. And you never know. But either way, I think it’s awesome that you’re at least trying to bring it to life.


My other ideas are Dr.Fate, a Black Canary/Green Arrow movie, and a Titans movie that I'm hesitant to work on now since the tv show is happening.

----------


## Myskin

> Still, F4 was a spectacular failure. But, still Fox also gave us "gems" like X-Men: Last Stand, Wolverine Origins, Apocalypse,  etc.


Both Last Stand and Origins were before 2010. That is, almost 10 years ago. Fox had had enough time to reboot/relaunch everything (the new Deadpool is basically a reboot of the original one, even if they use the same actor from Origins) and gain the viewers' trust again. FC/DOFP are basically a reboot. In fact, we had a new Magnet, a new Mystique, a new Xavier and have an upcoming new Dark Phoenix saga even if the original story was already told in Last Stand. And besides that, the fundamentals (X-Men 1 and 2, which I don't particularly like, to be clear) had elements which were solid enough (Jackman, for example) that they could tell new stories by using a similar blueprint. In the DCEU the fundamentals are non-existent. Pull the plug.




> And *any* hope of a shared universe would be gone as well.


Even if that was the case - and we can't know it - what is the problem? We won't have a shared universe. So what? I mean, it's not that we are forced to have a shared universe. Heck, we aren't even forced to have so many superhero movies. Maybe they could use that money to create something new and interesting which isn't superhero-related. With few exceptions, we haven't had new groundbreaking cinematic mythologies after the 1980s and maybe it's time to create something new. This would be my ideal solution, by the way. 





> So, are you saying that Marvel characters are just inherently better than DC characters?


In movies, right now, without a doubt. In general - this concerns also comic books - Marvel characters are inherently less dated and way more relevant than DC characters. DC characters could become relevant again but they would need a radical rethinking which would take years, maybe decades to be put into effect, and right now I can't see anything like that in motion.





> Personal tastes aside, its a critically lauded run.


The current Superman run - and, to a certain extent, Rebirth - had one purpose alone: regain the trust of longtime readers. It worked to a degree (because fans want certain things and can be incredibly close-minded if hey don't get them), but I seriously doubt that anybody cares about it outside the circle of longtime readers (and I don't even think that ALL longtime readers care so much about Jurgens to begin with). In terms of relevance and renewal of the character, it means zero. And yes, even if Superman as a character appeared in a lot of good stories (but they are way fewer than Batman's), his milestones as a character aren't even in the same league with DKR or Killing Joke. Except for All-Star Superman, maybe.





> Well, who said he is using it as a refuge?


I am saying that. A rich and long history doesn't have anything to do with the relevance of a character. Flash Gordon has a rich and long history, and it is dust (except for some nostalgic, short-lived renewal).

----------


## Buried Alien

> Even if that was the case - and we can't know it - what is the problem? We won't have a shared universe. So what? I mean, it's not that we are forced to have a shared universe. .


Just because YOU don't care about seeing one doesn't mean that nobody else does.  There are many fans who have waited years if not decades to see a cinematic DC Universe come to fruition.  That might matter nothing to you, but it does to other people.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Myskin

> Just because YOU don't care about seeing one doesn't mean that nobody else does.  There are many fans who have waited years if not decades to see a cinematic DC Universe come to fruition.


They have it now. And it wasn't worth the wait.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> They have it now. And it wasn't worth the wait.


Again, not to you. People like the characters well enough, they just need to be in better  movies

----------


## Myskin

> Again, not to you. People like the characters well enough, they just need to be in better  movies


Longtime fans can be their own worst enemy and even the worst enemy of the characters they love. Being a completist by buying awful comic books and supporting movies which are clearly badly conceived, badly directed and badly edited can be even more harmful than letting the powers that be know that what they are doing isn't working by voting with your wallet. A flop like Batman & Robin was probably the best thing ever happened to the Batman franchise.

----------


## Soubhagya

To explain the need of a proper and solid foundation let me use examples.

Star Wars. Its the perfect example. Its first three films are some of the most beloved things in the planet. Three films sucked. Okay third was better. But it did not affect Star Wars. People can always look back to the three original films. And even if they make a couple of bad films people will look back and say: No this is a fluke. 

Similarly Inhumans sucked. So what? People will see. Oh there is Civil War. There is Winter Soldier. There is Avengers. There is GoTG. No Inhumans or Iron Fist is a fluke. Marvel generally makes good to great stuff.

Even if there are bumps in the road they can recover. X-Men is like that. Two films films back to back sucked. But people remember the first two films. Which were great. They recovered by a couple of good films.

But in DC what is to look back to? WW was likely a fluke.

People are abandoning DC. Each film since BvS has been earning lesser in its opening weekend to the previous film. Data is available. A couple of bad films more and DCEU would be dead.

I say reboot it. Matt Reeve's films are generally well critically. His Batman can be the restart which DC needs. A couple of solid films with the core characters and DCEU will soar in the sky.

----------


## Slowpokeking

If they had made MoS2 and used Brainiac as the villain, we could have seen him on big screen before Ultron.

He was a much more interesting villain than Ultron.

----------


## Myskin

> To explain the need of a proper and solid foundation let me use examples.
> 
> Star Wars. Its the perfect example. Its first three films are some of the most beloved things in the planet. Three films sucked. Okay third was better. But it did not affect Star Wars. People can always look back to the three original films. And even if they make a couple of bad films people will look back and say: No this is a fluke. 
> 
> Similarly Inhumans sucked. So what? People will see. Oh there is Civil War. There is Winter Soldier. There is Avengers. There is GoTG. No Inhumans or Iron Fist is a fluke. Marvel generally makes good to great stuff.
> 
> Even if there are bumps in the road they can recover. X-Men is like that. Two films films back to back sucked. But people remember the first two films. Which were great. They recovered by a couple of good films.
> 
> But in DC what is to look back to? WW was likely a fluke.
> ...


I mostly agree. Except that I can't stand Batman anymore. But I would take Reeves any day rather than Affleck or Snyder or... Whatever.

----------


## Myskin

> If they had made MoS2 and used Brainiac as the villain, we could have seen him on big screen before Ultron.


If they had made good movies, with Brainiac, Toyman or even a good rendition of Steppenwolf, we would have had good movies.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> To explain the need of a proper and solid foundation let me use examples.
> 
> Star Wars. Its the perfect example. Its first three films are some of the most beloved things in the planet. Three films sucked. Okay third was better. But it did not affect Star Wars. People can always look back to the three original films. And even if they make a couple of bad films people will look back and say: No this is a fluke. 
> 
> Similarly Inhumans sucked. So what? People will see. Oh there is Civil War. There is Winter Soldier. There is Avengers. There is GoTG. No Inhumans or Iron Fist is a fluke. Marvel generally makes good to great stuff.
> 
> Even if there are bumps in the road they can recover. X-Men is like that. Two films films back to back sucked. But people remember the first two films. Which were great. They recovered by a couple of good films.
> 
> But in DC what is to look back to? WW was likely a fluke.
> ...


The prequel got great ideas, but it wasn't executed well. Too much stuff to tell and Lucas sucks at writing romance story.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Longtime fans can be their own worst enemy and even the worst enemy of the characters they love. Being a completist by buying awful comic books and supporting movies which are clearly badly conceived, badly directed and badly edited can be even more harmful than letting the powers that be know that what they are doing isn't working by voting with your wallet. A flop like Batman & Robin was probably the best thing ever happened to the Batman franchise.


On the other hand Superman IV: The Quest for Peace didn't do Superman any favors, at least as far as movies.  The WB movie division still can't figure out who they want him to be.
Though on the TV side Superman has fared a little better, with Superboy, Lois & Clark, Smallville, and now the side character Supergirl.  All lasting multiple seasons on TV. And all
basically presenting the same character that was in Superman: The Movie. Maybe Superman  is a character better suited for TV than the movies. Which is sort of ironic because it 
takes movie graphics to make Superman really soar.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Both Last Stand and Origins were before 2010. That is, almost 10 years ago. Fox had had enough time to reboot/relaunch everything (the new Deadpool is basically a reboot of the original one, even if they use the same actor from Origins) and gain the viewers' trust again. FC/DOFP are basically a reboot. In fact, we had a new Magnet, a new Mystique, a new Xavier and have an upcoming new Dark Phoenix saga even if the original story was already told in Last Stand. And besides that, the fundamentals (X-Men 1 and 2, which I don't particularly like, to be clear) had elements which were solid enough (Jackman, for example) that they could tell new stories by using a similar blueprint. In the DCEU the fundamentals are non-existent. Pull the plug.


New actors playing young Mystique, Magneto, and Xavier....the older versions of which were still played by the same actors who portrayed them in the original movies. Rebecca Romijn was even in FC.

And who cares how long ago Last Stand and Origins were? They were still bad movies, but that didn't stop Fox from making more X-Men movies just a few years after those.

And, as people have said, while BvS and those movies leave much to be desired, the fundamentals are the actors who play the characters. Gadot and even Robbie, Cavill, and Mamoa have been embraced. Also, Wonder Woman is pretty much the first comic book movie in a long time to get genuine Oscar buzz. You don't throw that away.




> Even if that was the case - and we can't know it - what is the problem? We won't have a shared universe. So what? I mean, it's not that we are forced to have a shared universe. Heck, we aren't even forced to have so many superhero movies. Maybe they could use that money to create something new and interesting which isn't superhero-related. With few exceptions, we haven't had new groundbreaking cinematic mythologies after the 1980s and maybe it's time to create something new. This would be my ideal solution, by the way.


Maybe I wasn't clear. Its not just a shared universe that's at risk, but leaving aside the fact that a shared universe is what people have wanted for decades, if they bail on this universe, we may not get *any* DC projects. Like, at all. So, no self-contained Aquaman or Wonder Woman movies. WB would just go back to focusing on the Harry Potter world and whatever franchise the rights to which they'd just purchased.




> In movies, right now, without a doubt. *In general - this concerns also comic books - Marvel characters are inherently less dated and way more relevant than DC characters.* DC characters could become relevant again but they would need a radical rethinking which would take years, maybe decades to be put into effect, and right now I can't see anything like that in motion.


I'm sorry, but this is just plain untrue. Regardless of the movies, Batman is pretty much the most recognizable hero on the face of the planet and arguably the most beloved superhero of all time. Also, Batman is just a few years out from a trilogy of movies that pretty much launched the modern age of superhero movies and gave us the only ever Oscar-winning performance by an actor in a comic book film. Superman is also at the point of being as American as apple pie.

Nobody thinks these characters are irrelevant. DC characters don't need to completely change themselves to appeal to people. In fact, one of the main complaints about the DCEU is that the characters don't act like their usual selves. DCEU Superman is cold and distant, while in the comics, he's kind, reassuring, and genuinely happy to help people. DCEU Batman has almost no regard for the lives of the people he's fighting, whereas in the comics, he has a vow to never kill and tries to protect life. Changing the characters to be relevant is the mistake that the DCEU made. The only ones they got right so far are Diana and Harley Quinn (have to say, Robbie did do that role justice even if the movie didn't).

People wish that the movies were *better*. *I* wish the movies were better. But the fact is that they're outraged *because* they already love these characters, not because they need the movies to give them a reason to.

But, if you need a movie to justify people's love of a character, well Wonder Woman, again, pretty much was the most relevant movie of 2017. Pretty much everyone was saying how it was such a needed film at the time of its release and how it empowered women at a time when women in this country appeared under-appreciated. And, again, its pretty much the only CBM in the last 10 years I've seen that's generating Oscar buzz and is actively campaigning for Best Director (Jenkins), Best Actress (Gadot), and Best Picture. I don't think WB is planning on pissing that away by pulling a plug on the universe in which its set.




> The current Superman run - and, to a certain extent, Rebirth - had one purpose alone: regain the trust of longtime readers. It worked to a degree (because fans want certain things and can be incredibly close-minded if hey don't get them), but I seriously doubt that anybody cares about it outside the circle of longtime readers (and I don't even think that ALL longtime readers care so much about Jurgens to begin with). In terms of relevance and renewal of the character, it means zero. And yes, even if Superman as a character appeared in a lot of good stories (but they are way fewer than Batman's), his milestones as a character aren't even in the same league with DKR or Killing Joke. Except for All-Star Superman, maybe.


There's also the fact that its lauded by critics for simply being well-written for the most part. That makes it relevant.

Also, Kingdom Come and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow aren't considered in the same league as DKR and Killing Joke? Because I've always seen them counted among some of the best *comic book* stories ever told, let alone just best Superman stories. Also, you're forgetting that Superman #75, the culmination of the Death of Superman arc, possibly the most iconic Superman story of all time, was and continues to be the best selling DC single issue of all time, at over 3 million copies.

Superman will always be relevant, especially today as the ultimate immigrant story.




> I am saying that. A rich and long history doesn't have anything to do with the relevance of a character. Flash Gordon has a rich and long history, and it is dust (except for some nostalgic, short-lived renewal).


Its not *just* his history, but the truth is that people like consistency. They like characters who have stood the test of time and remained true to themselves at their core. They're okay with slight updates, but don't like when a character is irrevocably changed to the point where they're no longer recognizable. That's why New 52 Superman failed and they had to bring back a more classic version.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> To explain the need of a proper and solid foundation let me use examples.
> 
> Star Wars. Its the perfect example. Its first three films are some of the most beloved things in the planet. Three films sucked. Okay third was better. But it did not affect Star Wars. People can always look back to the three original films. And even if they make a couple of bad films people will look back and say: No this is a fluke. 
> 
> Similarly Inhumans sucked. So what? People will see. Oh there is Civil War. There is Winter Soldier. There is Avengers. There is GoTG. No Inhumans or Iron Fist is a fluke. Marvel generally makes good to great stuff.
> 
> Even if there are bumps in the road they can recover. X-Men is like that. Two films films back to back sucked. But people remember the first two films. Which were great. They recovered by a couple of good films.
> 
> But in DC what is to look back to? WW was likely a fluke.
> ...


Rebooting would be too much work and it would likely take so long that people would just get over the whole idea. No way you can throw Gadot, nor can you pretend Gadot didn't exist in a previous universe. Same with well-received castings. It doesn't work. Casual audiences will be further turned off. They'll be tired of the exercise and comic book fatigue will set in, at least for the DC brand. But Aquaman offers something new. A Flash movie offers something new. The GL reboot afterwards could peak some interest. If the villains are well received too, then a JL vs. Society team up movie will get people talking.

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## Clark_Kent

This is interesting...a case of "careful what you wish for?" 

Armie Hammer was recently on a podcast, where he discussed a few scenes & story beats of George Miller's "Justice League: Mortal." Not a fan of Superman & Zod punching each other through buildings? Well how does Superman & Wonder Woman leveling cities (plural) sound? 

I suppose the article could be taken with salt as it mentions 'Mortal' shutting down while Nolan was developing 'Batman Begins'. 'Mortal' actually was being developed in 2007, if I recall. Could be a typo I guess. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cos...er-woman%3famp

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## Soubhagya

> I mostly agree. Except that I can't stand Batman anymore. But I would take Reeves any day rather than Affleck or Snyder or... Whatever.


Affleck is not returning. For an Academy award winning director and actor who was seeing a career resurgence it makes no sense to continue with DCEU. And he has personal problems and going through a difficult phase of his life. So, i think we have seen the last of him as Batman.

There is the elephant in the room. Some fans are tired of Batman. Its understandable. But we are on the same team. We want DCEU to be successful and thrive. Batman is the most popular superhero in the planet. So, starting with him makes all sense.




> This is interesting...a case of "careful what you wish for?" 
> 
> Armie Hammer was recently on a podcast, where he discussed a few scenes & story beats of George Miller's "Justice League: Mortal." Not a fan of Superman & Zod punching each other through buildings? Well how does Superman & Wonder Woman leveling cities (plural) sound? 
> 
> I suppose the article could be taken with salt as it mentions 'Mortal' shutting down while Nolan was developing 'Batman Begins'. 'Mortal' actually was being developed in 2007, if I recall. Could be a typo I guess. 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cos...er-woman%3famp


I got a far better film. However i can't say about others. I was really happy with the film. Superman and Wonder Woman leveling cities! That's too much to take in.

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## Jokerz79

To be fair most of Last Stand and Origins was retconned out of continuity by Fox. Everything post 1973 was changed in Wolverine's life and given both Jean and Scott were alive most if not all of Last Stand was changed. There are nods to elements from the Wolverine, X-Men, and X2 still being in continuity so maybe WB should use Flashpoint like Fox used Days of Future Past to dump the really bad and keep what works.

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## Robotman

Flashpoint should be moved back until at least 2021. They have zero momentum at the moment and cant afford to risk a big budget crossover with very dark themes right after Justice League tanked. I really dont see Aquaman generating that much excitement. I dont think that will be the movie to get them back on track. Shazam could be the film to do it but its coming out one month after Captain Marvel. Marvel Studios will no doubt have another hit with that character. I really hope it doesnt kill all the hype for Shazam the way Thor did with Justice League.

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## Robotman

Darkseid was apparently cut from Justice League! I seriously can’t believe how stupid WB is sometimes. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/01/k...arkseid-scene/

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## Soubhagya

> Flashpoint should be moved back until at least 2021. They have zero momentum at the moment and can’t afford to risk a big budget crossover with very dark themes right after Justice League tanked. I really don’t see Aquaman generating that much excitement. I don’t think that will be the movie to get them back on track. Shazam could be the film to do it but its coming out one month after Captain Marvel. Marvel Studios will no doubt have another hit with that character. I really hope it doesn’t kill all the hype for Shazam the way Thor did with Justice League.


I agree with you. Any idea of a Flashpoint film is now pointless. Its pretty much Justice League 1.5. Its a Justice League film by another name. Soft reboot might have been a good idea. But any studio will be foolish to attempt such a film after Justice League has performed like this. Shazam might surprise us. Still it looks less likely. 





> To be fair most of Last Stand and Origins was retconned out of continuity by Fox. Everything post 1973 was changed in Wolverine's life and given both Jean and Scott were alive most if not all of Last Stand was changed. There are nods to elements from the Wolverine, X-Men, and X2 still being in continuity so maybe WB should use Flashpoint like Fox used Days of Future Past to dump the really bad and keep what works.


Is there a consensus that what worked? Wonder Woman is for sure. But Man of Steel is divisive among fans. I would say keep it. But is it as natural a choice as X-Men and X2 for X-Men series?

----------


## Silver Phoenix

I know I'm also in the minority with like Affleck as Bats... he had the unfortunate task of coming after Bale but I like what Affleck brings.

Anywho, I say introduce the new Bats as a supporting character in one of the other films to see if fans accept the recast first. If the reception is good, greenlight at Batman solo.

----------


## Silver Phoenix

We call for reboots as easy as we blink nowadays...smh... "I didn't like that" reboot!... "OMG, that was awful," reboot!..."So-and-so wasn't portrayed right,"... reboot! 

A reboot would doom the DCCU IMO... especially when I think the DCCU is more on an upswing than anything. 

WB/DCCU just needs to get directors that really get it (Patty Jenkins) and have a vision for their movie and story they want to tell. We need to let them build the DCCU with these other movies... the most important thing is to tell a story and weave these movies together that continues to build this universe.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Honestly prior to the Dark Knight trilogy, the last true bonafide Superhero hit they had was Batman 89 and maybe Batman Forever. Before that it was Superman II in 1980. Warner's did a pretty decent job damaging the DC brand before Zack Snyder. They dragged their feet for 20 years and instead of putting effort into cultivating their characters instead of occasionally making  just  ( generally) bad Superman and Batman movies, they waited until Marvel was already half way to build their universe and thought foolishly they could play catch up with one movie. Laziness and pure hubris.
> 
> While there is no doubt the critical drubbing BvS  got didn't help matters , the path that led us to a Justice League movie for all intents and purposes flopping started long ago. The article that came out yesterday only highlights that the culture inside Warners that pretty much been in place for too long. It wasn't sunshine and lollipops before evil Snyder raped people's childhoods. I have no doubt had it been literally anyone else at the helm of the DCEU , Justice League still would have turned out a hot mess overall Because Warner's probably still would have micromanaged things to death.


Right. You've seen it yourself how many directors dropped out of DCEU projects? There's a reason for it... Wan is so far the only one who hasn't dropped out a solo movie.

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## Soubhagya

never mind

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## Soubhagya

> Rebooting would be too much work and it would likely take so long that people would just get over the whole idea. No way you can throw Gadot, nor can you pretend Gadot didn't exist in a previous universe. Same with well-received castings. It doesn't work. Casual audiences will be further turned off. They'll be tired of the exercise and comic book fatigue will set in, at least for the DC brand. But Aquaman offers something new. A Flash movie offers something new. The GL reboot afterwards could peak some interest. If the villains are well received too, then a JL vs. Society team up movie will get people talking.


There is no superhero fatigue if you think it has some truth. All superhero films did excellently. JL was the exception. I am saying that they already are fatigued with the DC brand. A JL film is in danger of not breaking even. It was supposed to be the competitor to Avengers. A film with Superman, Batman and the recently successful Wonder Woman earned 93.8 million in opening. Just behind the 94 million GoTG. Doesn't this show the fact that audiences are already fatigued of DCEU? Just about two months ago most fans were saying it would easily cross 1 billion. 

A film with these characters can't earn 100 million. It simply means they are fatigued by DC. I want to be optimistic. But i am unable to.

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## Myskin

> New actors playing young Mystique, Magneto, and Xavier....the older versions of which were still played by the same actors who portrayed them in the original movies. Rebecca Romijn was even in FC.


They are basically cameos (except for Jackman, of course). For all intents and purposes, it was a reboot (or we wouldn't have a new Dark Phoenix saga in one year) even if they were smart enough to put it in a way that fans didn't get angry at them for it. Maybe WB can do something similar with Flashpoint, or maybe not, because at least Fox had X-Men 1 and 2 before The Last Stand, and WB has basically only Last Stand-ish movies so far.




> And who cares how long ago Last Stand and Origins were? They were still bad movies, but that didn't stop Fox from making more X-Men movies just a few years after those.


It matters. So much time passed that I doubt people even remember that The Last Stand was a thing. The point is - Fox made great movies BEFORE The Last Stand and Origins and made great movies AFTER that. There is no point in thinking that those movies are representative of what Fox does with their IPs. I'll tell you more - I doubt that people even vaguely remember about F4 - ANY version of them.




> And, as people have said, while BvS and those movies leave much to be desired, the fundamentals are the actors who play the characters.


The fundamentals of a movie are actors, characters, editing, script and a lot more. The fundamentals of a shared universe are the movies and the overall project. So far, the DCEU has a lot of horrible movies as fundamentals and it has no project at all.




> Maybe I wasn't clear. Its not just a shared universe that's at risk, but leaving aside the fact that a shared universe is what people have wanted for decades, if they bail on this universe, we may not get *any* DC projects. Like, at all.


I seriously doubt about that. The studios - every modern studio - is without ideas about new mythologies and that's why they are (re)discovering old franchises. I really don't think that WB would stop making DC movies altogether - we could get at least some Batman movies more. But even if that was the case, you know what? We would simply get new, hopefully good movies and new mythologies which are not superhero-based. That's fine. I mean, people evolve.




> I'm sorry, but this is just plain untrue. Regardless of the movies, Batman is pretty much the most recognizable hero on the face of the planet and arguably the most beloved superhero of all time. Also, Batman is just a few years out from a trilogy of movies that pretty much launched the modern age of superhero movies and gave us the only ever Oscar-winning performance by an actor in a comic book film.


Oh, you are absolutely right about that. But in my previous posts I've made it clear (and if I didn't, I'm doing it know) that Batman had TONS of good standalone stories and adaptations on every media which made the character immortal. Unfortunately, he is the ONLY DC character who is really relevant today.




> Nobody thinks these characters are irrelevant.


To be fair, a lot of people think they are. Outside of fandom, I mean. They are very much recognizable because they are very old icons, but recognizability is not the same as being relevant.




> DC characters don't need to completely change themselves to appeal to people.


Who said that? A complete rethinking is not the same as a 100% change.




> People wish that the movies were *better*. *I* wish the movies were better. But the fact is that they're outraged *because* they already love these characters, not because they need the movies to give them a reason to.


Define "people". Longtime fans are just a part of the aforementioned people. I think that a lot of people - as in "casual viewers" - aren't so interested in JL because all of the characters behave in an incredibly forced and muddled way. 




> And, again, its pretty much the only CBM in the last 10 years I've seen that's generating Oscar buzz and is actively campaigning for Best Director (Jenkins), Best Actress (Gadot), and Best Picture.


Good PR. It won't happen.




> There's also the fact that its lauded by critics for simply being well-written for the most part. That makes it relevant.


I think that it was lauded because there from a merely cultural standpoint it hit a landmark - the first female superhero. If it had been released after Captain Marvel, I really don't think that it would have been rated so high - even if it's decent IMHO.




> Also, Kingdom Come and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow aren't considered in the same league as DKR and Killing Joke? Because I've always seen them counted among some of the best *comic book* stories ever told, let alone just best Superman stories.


They aren't. Well, maybe Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. 
Kingdom Come is a nice story, but it is very nerd-oriented (a lot of characters need a lot of previous knowledge to understand their identity) and the generational conflict at its heart really does make sense only in a superhero universe. DKR, like Watchmen, is the perfect standalone story and it is so incredibly relatable and multi-faceted that even people who never read a comic book in their life bought and understood it. And they keep on reading it nowadays.




> Also, you're forgetting that Superman #75, the culmination of the Death of Superman arc, possibly the most iconic Superman story of all time, was and continues to be the best selling DC single issue of all time, at over 3 million copies.


Pure commercial gimmick. And this time I think that even a lot of longtime readers would agree that it isn't such a great story after all. The fact that they keep on rehashing it in every possible format and medium is just a symptom of the fact that there aren't so many Superman stories to take as a point of reference, so they keep on rehashing this one. Batman isn't tied THAT strongly to Knightfall, for example.




> Superman will always be relevant, especially today as the ultimate immigrant story.


Superman isn't that relevant any more even now. If it was relevant, we would be watching Man of Steel 5 instead of JL.




> That's why New 52 Superman failed and they had to bring back a more classic version.


I speak for myself: I don't care about New52 Superman and I think that it is one of Morrison's most muddled works.

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## Soubhagya

Okay Myskin i want to know your views about why Marvel characters are relevant today. You mention Batman. He is relevant. But others are irrelevant. How do you call a character relevant? And how are marvel characters relevant? 

Maybe they can be made relevant in the films. Its not feasible to make changes in comics first and then films later. The last time they made major changes was i believe after COIE. They were in dire straits. They had to change or be wiped out. 

I am unable to accept that DC characters are irrelevant. They are successful in TV. Maybe its just a series of bad films.

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## Carabas

> A film with these characters can't earn 100 million. It simply means they are fatigued by DC.


Or, a film with these characters can earn 100 million. Provided it is actually worth watching. And has costumes that look cool instead of whatever it is they were using here.
You only get 100 million dollar movies when audiences will go watch it again and again and again. And this movie? They're lucky people will watch it just the once.

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## Carabas

> Okay Myskin i want to know your views about why Marvel characters are relevant today.


It is never the characters that are relevant, but the stories you choose to tell with them. And WB has chosen... poorly.

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## Soubhagya

> Or, a film with these characters can earn 100 million. Provided it is actually worth watching. And has costumes that look cool instead of whatever it is they were using here.
> You only get 100 million dollar movies when audiences will go watch it again and again and again. And this movie? They're lucky people will watch it just the once.


We have already gone through this before. Remember. According to plan and expectations JL was supposed to be DC's challenge to the Avengers. If everything went as it should have been it shall be the highest earning comic book movie of all time. At least in the top three.

If Marvel can use the at that time B-list characters like Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Black Widow and Hawkeye and make 1.5 billion, surely DC shall earn more because they have access to some of the greatest comic book characters of all time. A team with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg shall be at least at the top three comic book films of all time box office wise. Marvel released five films before Avengers. DC released four films before Justice League. So, why such a huge difference?

But here we are. It was a series of divisive films due to which this has happened. Its as clear as that.

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## Carabas

I am not getting what your question or conclusion is.

The characters and how big they are in the very small comic book fandom world is not very relevant in Hollywood.

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## Soubhagya

> I am not getting what your question or conclusion is.
> 
> The characters and how big they are in the very small comic book fandom world is not very relevant in Hollywood.


It was the plan. WB was expecting Justice League shall do as well as Avengers. And it would have, had they made a series of good films just as Marvel did before Avengers.

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## Soubhagya

> It is never the characters that are relevant, but the stories you choose to tell with them. And WB has chosen... poorly.


I know that. I want to hear from Myskin.

This is why Marvel succeeds. They are not trying to be relevant or prove anything. They think that these characters have already proved themselves in the comics. Just make a film showing them doing amazing things while making a film which is good. Good meaning the basics like plot, character work, structure, etc. 

I don't understand why film makers at DC try to show that Superman is relevant. That Superman is important. Superman does not need to prove himself as a concept or a character. He has proved his worth in the comics.

Just try to show him doing awesome stuff. While making a film with good basics. They try all this things like he is a symbol of hope. He is the ultimate immigrant. That S means something. They try to show him as important. Forgetting the fact that he is just a comic book character. Who happens to be more popular then the average comic book character.

Just try to make a film which can entertain. That is enough. Wonder Woman does not try to hammer us into feminism or something like that. Its a competently made film which has a coherent plot with believable and interesting characters while Wonder Woman kicks butt.




> Or, a film with these characters can earn 100 million. Provided it is actually worth watching. And has costumes that look cool instead of whatever it is they were using here.
> You only get 100 million dollar movies when audiences will go watch it again and again and again. And this movie? They're lucky people will watch it just the once.


100 million dollar opening means people go to see it in the first weekend. It indicates that they have *interest* in watching it. After watching it they decide if they will see it again. Costumes, bad villain, poor cg and such complaints come after they watch it.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Eh, The Doom Patrol was/is basically like a halfway point between the FF and the X-Men. I mean, Robotman and Thing are two very similar characters. Plus, of course, the fact that their powers seem to be awfully similar to the FF's individual members'.
> 
> I think that Doom Patrol could actually make an awesome movie. Sort of like exploiting the family dynamics that Fantastic Four are known for...but *much* more dysfunctional, if only because of the reveal that the Chief was the one who actually caused the individual accidents that turned them into freaks.


If Shazam ever happens, and it hits all the right cylinders then maybe but they're going to have to change stuff around to avoid too much similarities and  give them a modest budget.  I really don't see the Chief being in it if it ever comes fruition(unless they get him off that wheelchair to avoid similarities). I'd like for DC to do what Marvel did and take a property  with   B-list or low-tier characters and turn them into household names. They've mostly been relying on their heavy-hitters so far(Suicide Squad had  Batman, Joker, as well as Harley Quinn, so it doesn't really count).

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> They are basically cameos (except for Jackman, of course). For all intents and purposes, it was a reboot (or we wouldn't have a new Dark Phoenix saga in one year) even if they were smart enough to put it in a way that fans didn't get angry at them for it. Maybe WB can do something similar with Flashpoint, or maybe not, because at least Fox had X-Men 1 and 2 before The Last Stand, and WB has basically only Last Stand-ish movies so far.


And Stewart. And McKellan. Those two had major roles in DoFP and Stewart was a big part of Logan.

Also, as for the Phoenix, it was something that Xavier knew about in Last Stand, so it wasn't the first time he'd come into contact with the Phoenix.




> It matters. So much time passed that I doubt people even remember that The Last Stand was a thing. The point is - Fox made great movies BEFORE The Last Stand and Origins and made great movies AFTER that. There is no point in thinking that those movies are representative of what Fox does with their IPs. I'll tell you more - I doubt that people even vaguely remember about F4 - ANY version of them.


And WB made a great film in Wonder Woman and, if we want to talk before that, they made the Dark Knight trilogy, which was basically a cultural phenomenon in its own right. People know that WB can make good movies. If they hear that a future DC movie is good, then they'll go see it. Its as simple as that. People went to see Wonder Woman after BvS was such a mess. People aren't seeing JL because they've heard its also a mess. If Aquaman gets good reviews, though, people will see it.




> The fundamentals of a movie are actors, characters, editing, script and a lot more. The fundamentals of a shared universe are the movies and the overall project. So far, the DCEU has a lot of horrible movies as fundamentals and it has no project at all.


Not saying they haven't been bad, but there's stuff that DC shouldn't throw away. They've already invested so much into this, that if they trash it, it will probably be decades before they even talk about making another DC film. And, yes, they do have projects. As I just said, Aquaman is already done. They're not gonna be like "oh, never mind."

And that's the thing: this universe is still moving forward. They haven't signaled any plans to pull the plug. There are things we might wish were different about it. There's stuff I sure as hell wished was different. But WB doesn't seem to be stopping, and I have to say that might be a good thing. Because, even if we get some crap, we will likely get at least a few good films.




> I seriously doubt about that. The studios - every modern studio - is without ideas about new mythologies and that's why they are (re)discovering old franchises. I really don't think that WB would stop making DC movies altogether - we could get at least some Batman movies more. But even if that was the case, you know what? We would simply get new, hopefully good movies and new mythologies which are not superhero-based. That's fine. I mean, people evolve.


Well, people *want* DC to make superhero movies. Its pretty simple. I mean, this is a forum of *superhero fans* after all. And they don't just want Batman. We want to see Wonder Woman and Flash and Aquaman and everyone we know and love. That's the point.

And its not a farfetched idea that WB would let their DC IPs sit on a shelf for a long while if they deemed the DCEU as a DoA failure. They already don't have faith in their own IPs, and pulling the plug on the DCEU would probably mean that they'd never use them again.




> Oh, you are absolutely right about that. But in my previous posts I've made it clear (and if I didn't, I'm doing it know) that Batman had TONS of good standalone stories and adaptations on every media which made the character immortal. *Unfortunately, he is the ONLY DC character who is really relevant today.*


No, he's not. Again, the success of Wonder Woman pretty much proves you wrong. People wouldn't have embraced the film if they thought that she was irrelevant. Same with the other characters. End of story.




> To be fair, a lot of people think they are. Outside of fandom, I mean. They are very much recognizable because they are very old icons, but recognizability is not the same as being relevant.


I have yet to see anyone in any sort of official media say that Superman is completely irrelevant. The fact that the character has survived for almost 80 years, been the center of cartoons and television shows and movies at all, and is to this day such an icon, means that he is relevant. The fact that, even just characters who are associated with him are able to appeal to the general public, like in the widely embraced Supergirl show, means that he's relevant. Superman could have gone the way of Flash Gordon. He didn't.




> Who said that? A complete rethinking is not the same as a 100% change.


They're pretty much synonyms




> Define "people". Longtime fans are just a part of the aforementioned people. I think that a lot of people - as in "casual viewers" - aren't so interested in JL because all of the characters behave in an incredibly forced and muddled way.


The general public. Whether they grew up with them from Superfriends, The DCAU Batman, Superman, or Justice League series, the Teen Titans a animated series, Young Justice, Smallville, the Donner Superman movies, the Burton Batman, the Nolan Dark Knight trilogy, or any other of the litany of media adaptations these characters have received, people know them. And what's more, they love them. Why do you think WB released a Superman movie in the first place? They wouldn't have done so if they didn't think people would see it.

Nobody doesn't like these characters themselves as concepts. They're mad that the movies haven't been good. That's pretty much it. But even so, a series of bad movies is not enough to erase 80 years of continued presence and goodwill.




> Good PR. It won't happen.


Not saying it will be nominated. But the very fact that the conversation is being had is a big deal. They are pushing for nominations. That's just a fact.




> I think that it was lauded because there from a merely cultural standpoint it hit a landmark - the first female superhero. If it had been released after Captain Marvel, I really don't think that it would have been rated so high - even if it's decent IMHO.


Also, its just a good movie. Regardless of all of those things, it was just a well-made, well-directed, and well-written film. And I don't think any of those factors would have saved it if it wasn't good.

But, having said that, there's something important in Wonder Woman being the first major female superhero. Captain Marvel was not. Wonder Woman was.




> They aren't. Well, maybe Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. 
> Kingdom Come is a nice story, but it is very nerd-oriented (a lot of characters need a lot of previous knowledge to understand their identity) and the generational conflict at its heart really does make sense only in a superhero universe. DKR, like Watchmen, is the perfect standalone story and it is so incredibly relatable and multi-faceted that even people who never read a comic book in their life bought and understood it. And they keep on reading it nowadays.


Kingdom Come is on the shortlist for stories people should read when they get into comics. It absolutely is in the same league of DKR.




> Pure commercial gimmick. And this time I think that even a lot of longtime readers would agree that it isn't such a great story after all. The fact that they keep on rehashing it in every possible format and medium is just a symptom of the fact that there aren't so many Superman stories to take as a point of reference, so they keep on rehashing this one. Batman isn't tied THAT strongly to Knightfall, for example.


And people wouldn't have cared about the gimmick if they didn't care about Superman. Simple as that. You had people coming in and buying comics for the first time ever because they heard that they were killing off Superman and thought that the issue where they did it would be something worth having. That means something.

An issue of Action #1 also sells for about $1,000,000. It wouldn't be selling that high if people didn't care about Superman and recognize his place in history.




> Superman isn't that relevant any more even now. If it was relevant, we would be watching Man of Steel 5 instead of JL.


What? No, that literally means nothing. If anything, the fact that they wanted to build the DC cinematic universe off of Superman's back means he is relevant. They've been lackluster in the execution, but that's not Superman's fault.

----------


## Myskin

> Okay Myskin i want to know your views about why Marvel characters are relevant today. You mention Batman. He is relevant. But others are irrelevant. How do you call a character relevant? And how are marvel characters relevant? 
> 
> Maybe they can be made relevant in the films. Its not feasible to make changes in comics first and then films later. The last time they made major changes was i believe after COIE. They were in dire straits. They had to change or be wiped out. 
> 
> I am unable to accept that DC characters are irrelevant. They are successful in TV. Maybe its just a series of bad films.


OK. I'll give you some examples of what I am talking about.
Firstly, forget that any superhero character in any currently published regular comic book may be successful enough to make it relevant outside of the circle of longtime readers. Regular comic books mean zero. Nobody reads them except for old farts (I am one of them, even if I don't read superhero books on a regular basis). Rebirth means zero and Doomsday Clock means nada. Whatever Marvel is currently doing with their characters means dust. What the characters are in other media means a lot (in some cases).

Marvel characters are relevant because of the movies (and the Netflix series to a degree, I guess). Kevin Feige (I'm using him as a point of reference, of course it wasn't just him) was smart enough to create a universe with very clear and coherent ideas where NO character is out of place. Basically, as I said in one of my earlier posts, he created a huge world where high-tech science, spy business and military complex permeate every single aspect of life (and the positive characters ARE the masters of such science and weapons - even everymen like Scott Lang and Peter Parker commonly use high-tech weapons to their advantage) and everything out of this world is visually crazy in a weird, dark way (Dr Strange) or morally crazy in a humorous way (The GotG and Ragnarok - by the way, one of the reasons for Infinity War to be so huge is that the "real world", that is the Avengers, and the "space world", that is the GoTG, are going to meet and this is very interesting because each world will "face", so to speak, the rules of the other one). And all of this resonates incredibly well with their target audience, that is, for the most part, younger generations. Kids who grew up with smartphones and electronic wonders in the internet era, but - at the same time - with constant rumbles of war in the background (9/11, ISIS). In a way, the Marvel cinematic universe is our universe, or perhaps I should say, the universe which people who are currently 15-16 years old have always known. Yes, it's from the comic books, but that's not very relevant - for all that matters, Feige could have invented everything from scratch, even if he used some recent comic books - Brubaker's Cap, the Ultimates - as his own blueprint.
Anyway. In the Marvel cinematic universe EVERY character makes sense within the general context. There is no overlapping. And since that universe is a very good allegory of our own, the characters ARE extremely relatable. And there are so many of them, each with their own "field" and distinctive tones, that the audience cannot but find at least ONE character he/she wants to be. Kids really want to be Cap, Iron Man or the Black Widow, live their adventures and even face some moral challenges from time to time - do I want to be a morally firm man like Cap, the hedonistic guy with a lot of weapons, or the crazy adventurer like Star-Lord? And this required a LOT of efforts on Feige's part, and a lot of critical thinking.

Just to give you another example - the most relevant character in the latest decade was Harry Potter (a WB property, by the way): he was extremely relatable especially for kids who faced the very same problems Harry was facing while his story was developing. That is, dealing with bullies, new friends, ruthless teachers and - most importantly - the self-discovery of an inner purpose and the challenges of maturity. Everybody at one point in their life wears a magic hat who makes you wonder who you are (also: if you didn't like HP, you could relate to Snape, Dumbledore, Ron or even Voldemort). Marvel characters are equally relatable, just in a different way.

Ok. The DCEU. It never had something like that because some of these problems are already present in the comic books themselves, and the DCEU never had someone like Feige to help them face these contradictions. If you pay attention, you clearly see that the mere presence of Batman and Superman in one world doesn't really make sense. Even better: the mere existence of the League doesn't make sense in the comic books in the first place. Why should these guys be together? Who decides when they should intervene, when they should face a menace and where? Do they cure cancer? If there is a war on the other side of the world, do they take a position? Do they agree on what they should do? Nobody knows. In comic books, readers really don't pay attention because they simply think, hey, it's comics, that's the way things have always been. But readers are old farts. If you want to make these characters acceptable to a new, younger audience, you must face these contradictions and overcome them. 

If you watch the DCEU movies - ALL of them, even DOJ, which - contrarily to what some people think - ISN'T a philosophical essay (and the extended version doesn't change it that much) - you will see that a lot of things happen without a reason because that's the way things were in the comic books. There is no reason for Lois Lane to fall in love with Supes. There is no reason for Luthor to hate Supes. There is no reason for Batman to hate Supes as well, and there is no reason for these super-idiots to gather and face a super-monster. These are just moments taken straight from the books and put in the movies without any critical thinking: were they good ideas? Does this work in a semi-realistic world?

Basically, the JL had to face every single challenge the Avengers had to face when Feige created the MCU, with at least one huge disadvantage (they didn't have a real blueprint they could take inspiration from) and one additional challenge (how do I make these guys NOT look like the Avengers?).
(to be continued...)

----------


## Myskin

(continues from a previous post)

However... Yes, Batman. Batman IS relevant. But Bats' current position is the finish line of a very long path started in the 1980s - maybe just a bit earlier, with Adams and O'Neil, but the revolution obviously started with Frank Miller. DKR isn't a milestone because it is dark and brooding and "edgy". It's a milestone because it presents Batman's power fantasy in such a visceral, strong, powerful way that everyone cannot but feel invested in the character's physical and psychological struggle. Everyones sooner or later feels like Miller's Batman. It's basically the Heart of Darkness of superhero stories. Also - it is a standalone story, and this means that literally everyone can buy it and read it and enjoy it even today. 
In addition, as I said, it marked the start of a path. A lot of people gave their contribution and began questioning several aspects of the characters' lives until everything clicked together and worked. To oversimplify:
"Hey, why does Batman wear a mask? Does it make sense?"
"Ok. Maybe he isn't just a hero - maybe he has some dark impulses and he is slightly psychotic. The mask is the symbol of a psychological transfiguration".
"Why is the Joker a clown? Shouldn't he be the villain?
"Ok, maybe he's psychotic too - hey, why don't we find some kind of dark connection, a bizarre sympathy between these two characters?"
Hence: TKJ, Arkham Asylum. And so on and on and on.... A lot of stories which are not just commercial gimmicks à la Death of Superman, but very powerful standalone stories and cartoon series and videogames and movies which made Bats' universe incredibly rich and relatable and popular and relevant and coherent in itself (although: not in respect to the universe outside Gotham, but it's not important). You don't relate to Batman? You can relate to Harley, or Robin, or Nightwing, or Catwoman, or Ivy, or even the Joker.

On the other hand, Superman never had something this strong and powerful on an ongoing basis (except for some very rare flukes like All-Star, which is obviously a masterpiece) and now he is very recognizable (after all, he's a pop cultural icon) but recognizable doesn't mean relatable, relevant or popular. The problem is - his universe is very self-contradictory and not particularly relatable. Metropolis doesn't have anything special. The supporting cast doesn't have anything special. The villains aren't anything special because, in general, they are very generic and they don't "tickle" the readers' inner desires and fears the way the Batman villains do. The scope and the purpose of the mission is very generic and literally the only thing which makes Superman distinctive are his powers. Superman punches and punches (and by the way: that's almost the only thing he does in JL and literally the only reason to resurrect him). And, quite frankly, that's very stupid.

I'll tell you more. These days, a lot of longtime readers talks about Superman's "inspirational" power, his strength as a symbol of "hope", etc. Well, I strongly suspect that these extremely generic and vague points of strength (because - let's be frank here - EVERY superhero is a symbol of hope in its own way) became Supes' official business card because they weren't able to find anything better to make him "count" in the DC books. If you read the original Golden Age stories, you'll see that yes, Superman IS inspirational because - in the simplistic world of THOSE comic books - he DOES funny things which are enjoyable in that self-contained universe: he beats the crap out of violent husbands, he trolls Hitler and so on. Basically he is inspirational the way E.C. Segar's Popeye was inspirational (even if Popeye had more points of strength IMHO). The problem is - the world has become way more complex, even the world of comic books, and the tragedy of Superman is that, at his core, he is still a very simplistic character in a very complex world.

By the way, don't deceive yourself - yes, there are several TV shows focused on DC heroes these days, but none of them is as popular as the MCU and none of them is culturally significant. I think that people will have better memories of Breaking Bad, Mr Robot or Stranger Things, rather than Supergirl or Arrow.

Of course, that doesn't mean that things should stay the way they are, but the problem is - when and how do the powers that be take the time to rethink the way these characters work? One thing that I thought a long time ago (or maybe someone suggested, can't remember) is that Superman's hometown share a name with Fritz Lang's Metropolis. And that movie focused on a futuristic city where the gap between workers and masters is huge. Wouldn't it be interesting if Superman became some kind of defender of the workers in a post-postmodern city, while he tries to protect their rights and at the same time he tries to avoid a possible civil war between the two factions of the population and the experiments of a science gone wrong escape control? In the days of Donald Trump, financial crisis and Amazon workers/slaves isn't this relatable and interesting? I am not saying that THIS is the direction they should follow and sure as hell I am no writer, but hey, it's a possible starting point. You can't claim that Superman is interesting and relevant just because it's a very old, recognizable icon.

----------


## inisideguy

> (continues from a previous post)
> 
> However... Yes, Batman. Batman IS relevant. But Bats' current position is the finish line of a very long path started in the 1980s - maybe just a bit earlier, with Adams and O'Neil, but the revolution obviously started with Frank Miller. DKR isn't a milestone because it is dark and brooding and "edgy". It's a milestone because it presents Batman's power fantasy in such a visceral, strong, powerful way that everyone cannot but feel invested in the character's physical and psychological struggle. Everyones sooner or later feels like Miller's Batman. It's basically the Heart of Darkness of superhero stories. Also - it is a standalone story, and this means that literally everyone can buy it and read it and enjoy it even today. 
> In addition, as I said, it marked the start of a path. A lot of people gave their contribution and began questioning several aspects of the characters' lives until everything clicked together and worked. To oversimplify:
> "Hey, why does Batman wear a mask? Does it make sense?"
> "Ok. Maybe he isn't just a hero - maybe he has some dark impulses and he is slightly psychotic. The mask is the symbol of a psychological transfiguration".
> "Why is the Joker a clown? Shouldn't he be the villain?
> "Ok, maybe he's psychotic too - hey, why don't we find some kind of dark connection, a bizarre sympathy between these two characters?"
> Hence: TKJ, Arkham Asylum. And so on and on and on.... A lot of stories which are not just commercial gimmicks à la Death of Superman, but very powerful standalone stories and cartoon series and videogames and movies which made Bats' universe incredibly rich and relatable and popular and relevant and coherent in itself (although: not in respect to the universe outside Gotham, but it's not important). You don't relate to Batman? You can relate to Harley, or Robin, or Nightwing, or Catwoman, or Ivy, or even the Joker.
> ...


 There is so much here. But this keeps boiling down to a D$$K measuring contest with Marvel.  Its not that superman and batman and the cw shows ect are not popular. These characters are ingrained into the public more so than ever. Its that they are not as popular as Marvel.  Thats what this thing keeps on boiling down to.  There is this idea that huh well DC movies are not doing as well as marvel therefore DC heroes are not relevant. This is a false premise. There is so much content for DC properties right now no one 15 years ago would have believed them if you told them that that this was happening in media.  Yes they are both superhero franchises. But if Harry Potter makes less and is less popular than Star Wars it doesn't make Harry Potter not relevant or done or whatever.  People are just being stupid with this whole thing.

----------


## Soubhagya

> OK. I'll give you some examples of what I am talking about.
> Firstly, forget that any superhero character in any currently published regular comic book may be successful enough to make it relevant outside of the circle of longtime readers. Regular comic books mean zero. Nobody reads them except for old farts (I am one of them, even if I don't read superhero books on a regular basis). Rebirth means zero and Doomsday Clock means nada. Whatever Marvel is currently doing with their characters means dust. What the characters are in other media means a lot (in some cases).
> 
> Marvel characters are relevant because of the movies (and the Netflix series to a degree, I guess). Kevin Feige (I'm using him as a point of reference, of course it wasn't just him) was smart enough to create a universe with very clear and coherent ideas where NO character is out of place. Basically, as I said in one of my earlier posts, he created a huge world where high-tech science, spy business and military complex permeate every single aspect of life (and the positive characters ARE the masters of such science and weapons - even everymen like Scott Lang and Peter Parker commonly use high-tech weapons to their advantage) and everything out of this world is visually crazy in a weird, dark way (Dr Strange) or morally crazy in a humorous way (The GotG and Ragnarok - by the way, one of the reasons for Infinity War to be so huge is that the "real world", that is the Avengers, and the "space world", that is the GoTG, are going to meet and this is very interesting because each world will "face", so to speak, the rules of the other one). And all of this resonates incredibly well with their target audience, that is, for the most part, younger generations. Kids who grew up with smartphones and electronic wonders in the internet era, but - at the same time - with constant rumbles of war in the background (9/11, ISIS). In a way, the Marvel cinematic universe is our universe, or perhaps I should say, the universe where people who are currently 15-16 years old have always known. Yes, it's from the comic books, but that's not very relevant - for all that matters, Feige could have invented everything from scratch, even if he used some recent comic books - Brubaker's Cap, the Ultimates - as his own blueprint.
> Anyway. In the Marvel cinematic universe EVERY character makes sense within the general context. There is no overlapping. And since that universe is a very good allegory of our own, the characters ARE extremely relatable. And there are so many of them, each with their own "field" and distinctive tones, that the audience cannot but find at least ONE character he/she wants to be. Kids really want to be Cap, Iron Man or the Black Widow, live their adventures and even face some moral challenges from time to time - do I want to be a morally firm man like Cap, the hedonistic guy with a lot of weapons, or the crazy adventurer like Star-Lord? And this required a LOT of efforts on Feige's part, and a lot of critical thinking.
> 
> Just to give you another example - the most relevant character in the latest decade was Harry Potter (a WB property, by the way): he was extremely relatable especially for kids who faced the very same problems Harry was facing while his story was developing. That is, dealing with bullies, new friends, ruthless teachers and - most importantly - the self-discovery of an inner purpose and the challenges of maturity. Everybody at one point in their life wears a magic hat who makes you wonder who you are (also: if you didn't like HP, you could relate to Snape, Dumbledore, Ron or even Voldemort). Marvel characters are equally relatable, just in a different way.
> 
> Ok. The DCEU. It never had something like that because some of these problems are already present in the comic books themselves, and the DCEU never had someone like Feige to help them face these contradictions. If you pay attention, you clearly see that the mere presence of Batman and Superman in one world doesn't really make sense. Even better: the mere existence of the League doesn't make sense in the comic books in the first place. Why should these guys be together? Who decides when they should intervene, when they should face a menace and where? Do they cure cancer? If there is a war on the other side of the world, do they take a position? Do they agree on what they should do? Nobody knows. In comic books, readers really don't pay attention because they simply think, hey, it's comics, that's the way things have always been. But readers are old farts. If you want to make these characters acceptable to a new, younger audience, you must face these contradictions and overcome them. 
> ...


Thank you very much.  :Smile: 

Yes i have noticed these contradictions in DC comics. As a shared universe Marvel actually makes more sense. After all Marvel actually was made by a small group of creators. On the other hand DC was made by different creators without synergy. Marvel has that advantage. I haven't read those books: Brubaker's Cap and Ultimates. May take a look.

Say DC gets a Kevin Feige can it be done? Or such contradictions can't be adjusted by any means? Surely someone who has a vision and given power of Feige can make it work. Or its hopeless. What do you think?

----------


## Soubhagya

> (continues from a previous post)
> 
> However... Yes, Batman. Batman IS relevant. But Bats' current position is the finish line of a very long path started in the 1980s - maybe just a bit earlier, with Adams and O'Neil, but the revolution obviously started with Frank Miller. DKR isn't a milestone because it is dark and brooding and "edgy". It's a milestone because it presents Batman's power fantasy in such a visceral, strong, powerful way that everyone cannot but feel invested in the character's physical and psychological struggle. Everyones sooner or later feels like Miller's Batman. It's basically the Heart of Darkness of superhero stories. Also - it is a standalone story, and this means that literally everyone can buy it and read it and enjoy it even today. 
> In addition, as I said, it marked the start of a path. A lot of people gave their contribution and began questioning several aspects of the characters' lives until everything clicked together and worked. To oversimplify:
> "Hey, why does Batman wear a mask? Does it make sense?"
> "Ok. Maybe he isn't just a hero - maybe he has some dark impulses and he is slightly psychotic. The mask is the symbol of a psychological transfiguration".
> "Why is the Joker a clown? Shouldn't he be the villain?
> "Ok, maybe he's psychotic too - hey, why don't we find some kind of dark connection, a bizarre sympathy between these two characters?"
> Hence: TKJ, Arkham Asylum. And so on and on and on.... A lot of stories which are not just commercial gimmicks à la Death of Superman, but very powerful standalone stories and cartoon series and videogames and movies which made Bats' universe incredibly rich and relatable and popular and relevant and coherent in itself (although: not in respect to the universe outside Gotham, but it's not important). You don't relate to Batman? You can relate to Harley, or Robin, or Nightwing, or Catwoman, or Ivy, or even the Joker.
> ...


Are you kidding me! You had such discussions in the previous CBR? I wasn't even a fan back then. Its a really fantastic discussion. For all the contradictions in the Superman universe and his lack of 'relatability' i really love Superman and find him more relatable then any other hero. Its not a place to discuss why. So, i am stopping here. 

Seen in this way Superman can't be someone like Batman for the general audience. Fine. For the reboot start with Batman. Superman does not need to be the best. Contrary to perceptions a Superman film which is exciting enough always makes money. Man of Steel did fine financially. Just make a film exciting enough, which does not divide fans and critics and we are good.

Superman works excellently for small kids. You know eight year olds. Make a film which targets them while keeping adults engaged and its one way to make the film. I find DC characters were originally meant for kids of that age. Marvel targeted teenagers, an emerging group in the 60s. Later DC, modified these characters to make them more appealing to teenagers in order to compete. So, Superman can be done like that. A simple fun action adventure film.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Say DC gets a Kevin Feige can it be done? Or such contradictions can't be adjusted by any means? Surely someone who has a vision and given power of Feige can make it work. Or its hopeless. What do you think?


 They already have a Kevin Feige but it's two people: Geoff Johns and Jon Berg. Think of those two as essentially Feige if his two strongest attributes were split into two people: Johns has the comic book  knowledge and knows the DC characters like the back of his hand; Berg has the filmmaker  side of Feige since he's an experienced film producer(he's been involved with  movies like_ Edge Of Tomorrow_) so it's a perfect mix of two worlds.  Put  those two together and they're pretty much  DC's answer to Kevin Feige.   Justice League was conceived of before those two came to power and the final product was a byproduct of  a lack of time, and corporatism ruling the day.  

 Aquaman will be the first film of the Johns/Berg era of DC films where they're involved with the film from start to finish.  That'll be the start of  the 'Rebirth' era of DC films so  hopefully it's smooth sailing from here on out--fingers crossed.  DC already has Aquaman in the can, Wonder Woman 2 is happening no matter what, and Batman is already in really good hands with Matt Reeves.  DC already  has strong filmmakers in Reeves, Jenkins, and Wan, that with their talents can rehabilitate the DC brand. The future for this franchise is very promising.  They've already  hit their lowest point: The only way they can go now   is up.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> They already have a Kevin Feige but it's two people: Geoff Johns and Jon Berg. Think of those two as essentially Feige if his two strongest attributes were split into two people: Johns has the comic book  knowledge and knows the DC characters like the back of his hand; Berg has the filmmaker  side of Feige since he's an experienced film producer(he's been involved with  movies like_ Edge Of Tomorrow_) so it's a perfect mix of two worlds.  Put  those two together and they're pretty much  DC's answer to Kevin Feige.   Justice League was conceived of before those two came to power and the final product was a byproduct of  a lack of time, and corporatism ruling the day.  
> 
>  Aquaman will be the first film of the Johns/Berg era of DC films where they're involved with the film from start to finish.  That'll be the start of  the 'Rebirth' era of DC films so  hopefully it's smooth sailing from here on out--fingers crossed.  DC already has Aquaman in the can, Wonder Woman 2 is happening no matter what, and Batman is already in really good hands with Matt Reeves.  DC already  has strong filmmakers in Reeves, Jenkins, and Wan, that with their talents can rehabilitate the DC brand. The future for this franchise is very promise.  They've already  hit their lowest point: The only way they can go now   is up.


I believe Geoff could lead DCEU back on track. The guy is so amazing, he knew how to handle the heroes like Superman, Flash, Lantern and Aquaman.

----------


## Jokerz79

Batman Forever was a massive hit in 95 and the second highest grossing film that year only behind Toy Story. Batman Returns while not as big as Batman 89 or Batman Forever it was also a hit 3rd highest grossing film f that year in the United States and 6th world wide. It's downfall and reason for course correction in the studio opinion was it lost a lot of toy sales due to his dark nature and companies back away from it. The only disappointment of that film series was Batman and Robin which was more the Studios fault than poor Joel Schumacher the man deserves some credit he did Lost Boys, Original Flatliners, and Fall Down for crying out loud.

As for the DCEU there are multiple factors.

1: Rushing to the finish line before having the proper set up just to catch up to the MCU.

2: The reactionary personality and other issues with WB suits and their constant meddling and editing the films beyond the Directors original visions and last if true not allowing the film to be held back to get properly done to preserve bonuses.

3: Right or wrong the general public have expectations for the DC Trinity and with Superman and Batman and they weren't met.

4: Bad marketing in Justice League's case.

5: This goes back to the WB suits but the editing of BvS, SS, and even to an extant Justice League theatrical cuts made them noticeable messes. 

The DCEU can be salvaged but it's going to take a lot of work.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Batman Forever was a massive hit in 95 and the second highest grossing film that year only behind Toy Story. Batman Returns while not as big as Batman 89 or Batman Forever it was also a hit 3rd highest grossing film f that year in the United States and 6th world wide. It's downfall and reason for course correction in the studio opinion was it lost a lot of toy sales due to his dark nature and companies back away from it. The only disappointment of that film series was Batman and Robin which was more the Studios fault than poor Joel Schumacher the man deserves some credit he did Lost Boys, Original Flatliners, and Fall Down for crying out loud.
> 
> As for the DCEU there are multiple factors.
> 
> 1: Rushing to the finish line before having the proper set up just to catch up to the MCU.
> 
> 2: The reactionary personality and other issues with WB suits and their constant meddling and editing the films beyond the Directors original visions and last if true not allowing the film to be held back to get properly done to preserve bonuses.
> 
> 3: Right or wrong the general public have expectations for the DC Trinity and with Superman and Batman and they weren't met.
> ...


They are already on the right track now, I believe in them.

----------


## Bossace

My worry is WB will see justice league and go “no more risky projects our big guns can’t even make money” then scrap anything not WW Batman or HQ, aquaman excluded because it’s already on the way to release. But projects like Shazam a possible flash or cyborg movie? If I’m an exec and JL can’t make bank why the hell would I take the financial risk on those properties given the brand damage and unknown when I can just stick with properties I know have the best chance of making money like HQ WW and Batman and Superman.

I realistically can’t see a Shazam movie let alone any other non trinity/Harley characters getting a movie now because it’s such a risk

----------


## Slowpokeking

> My worry is WB will see justice league and go “no more risky projects our big guns can’t even make money” then scrap anything not WW Batman or HQ, aquaman excluded because it’s already on the way to release. But projects like Shazam a possible flash or cyborg movie? If I’m an exec and JL can’t make bank why the hell would I take the financial risk on those properties given the brand damage and unknown when I can just stick with properties I know have the best chance of making money like HQ WW and Batman and Superman.
> 
> I realistically can’t see a Shazam movie let alone any other non trinity/Harley characters getting a movie now because it’s such a risk


If Aquaman could do well enough and DCEU could go back on track it's not going to affect too much. Overall DCEU have brought them a lot of money.

Actually 200-250M is enough to make good movies.

----------


## Myskin

> Say DC gets a Kevin Feige can it be done? Or such contradictions can't be adjusted by any means? Surely someone who has a vision and given power of Feige can make it work. Or its hopeless. What do you think?


Ok. Firstly let me clarify that I don't particularly root for Marvel, nor WB, nor Fox. Generally speaking I don't belong to their target audience or I find some of those movies too badly done for my personal tastes. In terms of US cinematic entertainment these days my heart relies on The Planet of the Apes or Blade Runner 2049, and regarding superhero flicks I am more interested in the productive steps and the cultural elements rather than the movies themselves.

Aside from that, I don't think that these contradictions can really be adjusted. You can't reconcile the sorrowful Superman from MOS with the unreasonably happy-go-lucky guy from JL. And I won't even talk about BatFleck. Of course, you can create you own head canon and say, hey, it's Joker, he can look like a gangsta in a movie and have a completely different look in another one, but I really don't think that WB should count on head canon to make this whole mess work. In a really bizarre way, it's as if they had gone full circle and now we are dealing with Superman Returns again. What is canon? What isn't? Did Superman make Lois forget that they slept together with a kiss? And so on. As far as I am concerned, IF they really want to create a shared universe (and quite frankly it is not mandated that they should) they should simply pull the plug on this one and create a new one from scratch. With a lot of time and patience. Focusing on what these characters should be and represent in their own universe, in their own personal world (years ago the best solution would have been - for example - giving free rein to Vaughan and Millar to create their own Superman trilogy). And keeping in mind that Marvel will probably have already done whatever they want to do, so they should find a way to create something innovative.

They probably need a Feige figure, and they think that they have found one in Berg+Johns. I don't know much about Berg, while Johns can sometimes be an idea man, but has a fatal flaw - he generally puts the adherence to comic books (in particular visual similarities) before any logical reason for these characters to exist and fight. For some reason, I think that the extremely forced bromance Barry/Supes (especially the first mid-credits scene) has his fingerprints all over it.

----------


## Jokerz79

> They are already on the right track now, I believe in them.


What any of us feel doesn't matter the performance at the box office disagrees.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> What any of us feel doesn't matter the performance at the box office disagrees.


But it's not all the movie itself's fault and obviously WB knew it's their management's fault mostly.

I enjoy it really.

----------


## Bossace

> What any of us feel doesn't matter the performance at the box office disagrees.


This, JL should have been their billion dollar movie no question, not ending up Lower than MoS (668 million) it’ll be lucky if it even breaks 600 now I think with Star Wars 2 weeks out and it only making roughly 16 million this week domestically and there’s no more markets for it to open up in.

----------


## manofsteel1979

From reports in recent days, it's clear that JL's underperformance at the Box office was not much of a surprise to WB. I don't think there is any chaotic panic behind the scenes. That already happened months ago. Hence the reports in September that Warner's was already changing course on a strict cinematic universe for DC. I doubt anything would be different if JL would have done huge other than the fact the people in charge would have gone to both Whedon and Snyder in hopes of having them collaborate on a fast tracked direct JL sequel, and possibly Affleck wouldn't be playing the will he /won't he game with continuing as Batman. Even then it would have to have pulled Avengers numbers. The course was set months ago.



Now, if Aquaman under performs? Then I imagine there will be outright panic. Until then, I doubt anything has changed or will change in regards to the slate from before JL opened.

----------


## Myskin

> From reports in recent days, it's clear that JL's underperformance at the Box office was not much of a surprise to WB. I don't think there is any chaotic panic behind the scenes. That already happened months ago. Hence the reports in September that Warner's was already changing course on a strict cinematic universe for DC. I doubt anything would be different if JL would have done huge other than the fact the people in charge would have gone to both Whedon and Snyder in hopes of having them collaborate on a fast tracked direct JL sequel, and possibly Affleck wouldn't be playing the will he /won't he game with continuing as Batman. Even then it would have to have pulled Avengers numbers. The course was set months ago.


That's probably what happened, I agree. I'd say that the rumors about a series of out-of-continuity DC films which circulated some time ago is probably a response to this mess.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> That's probably what happened, I agree. I'd say that the rumors about a series of out-of-continuity DC films which circulated some time ago is probably a response to this mess.


The moment of panic was when BvS got critically drubbed and the movie lost it's legs. I don't think it's a coincidence that after JL the only finished movie is Aquaman and nothing in between and nothing else currently filming. Behind the scenes the slate pretty much came to a halt. The course correction happened Summer of 2016. These franchises are like runaway freight trains. They take awhile to come to a halt. 

All eyes are on Aquaman. If it does well, expect a lot of suddenly confirmed projects and filming to start. If it doesn't, then expect maybe WW 2, maybe Reeves Batman gets made, but expect quiet. There  will never be a grand announcement they are shutting the DCEU. It'll just happen.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Thank you very much. 
> 
> Yes i have noticed these contradictions in DC comics. *As a shared universe Marvel actually makes more sense. After all Marvel actually was made by a small group of creators. On the other hand DC was made by different creators without synergy.* Marvel has that advantage. I haven't read those books: Brubaker's Cap and Ultimates. May take a look.
> 
> Say DC gets a Kevin Feige can it be done? Or such contradictions can't be adjusted by any means? Surely someone who has a vision and given power of Feige can make it work. Or its hopeless. What do you think?


Can't really say I at all agree with that point. I don't know if we can say that DC's characters don't make as much sense in a shared universe as Marvel's do....when they've been in a shared universe since before Marvel even existed.

The creators of DC characters were different, but they weren't without synergy. They worked closely with one another, and Julie Schwartz also sort of spearheaded the Silver Age of DC and was the unifying force behind the introduction of Silver Age Green Lantern, Silver Age Flash, and the Justice League.

People often remark how Batman is so out of place with the rest of the DCU characters, especially Superman, because he has no powers. That's actually the point. He and Superman are supposed to be opposites. They're the perfect compliments to one another. And Bruce isn't as out-of-place with other DC characters as Punisher is out of place standing next to Thor.

----------


## qwerty3w

> From reports in recent days, it's clear that JL's underperformance at the Box office was not much of a surprise to WB. I don't think there is any chaotic panic behind the scenes.


From that The Wrap article: "Warner is a studio that almost to a fault always want to project strength". Just like the boxoffice result of BVS, if they act like everything are expected and under control, things are probably not going well behind the scene.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> My memory is hazy, but was that the 2-parter where Superboy traveled to other dimensions (or Earths, whichever) and met a version of himself who had killed Lex, and basically stopped being Superboy? He showed up in a black leather jacket, and I always assumed it was a partial inspiration for Conner's design for Reign of the Supermen. He also met a dictator version of himself who ruled the planet. It was my favorite series of eps of the show at the time. 
> 
> A lot of the effects are dated now, but the takeoffs & landings still look superb. I think they had the same flying rigs from the Reeve films.


Couldn't remember myself so I checked with IMDB. The episode with the older Superman is the 2nd part of "The Road to Hell". The ones you talk about, also favorites of mine, were the 2-parter "Roads Not Taken".

----------


## Soubhagya

> Can't really say I at all agree with that point. I don't know if we can say that DC's characters don't make as much sense in a shared universe as Marvel's do....when they've been in a shared universe since before Marvel even existed.
> 
> The creators of DC characters were different, but they weren't without synergy. They worked closely with one another, and Julie Schwartz also sort of spearheaded the Silver Age of DC and was the unifying force behind the introduction of Silver Age Green Lantern, Silver Age Flash, and the Justice League.
> 
> People often remark how Batman is so out of place with the rest of the DCU characters, especially Superman, because he has no powers. That's actually the point. He and Superman are supposed to be opposites. They're the perfect compliments to one another. And Bruce isn't as out-of-place with other DC characters as Punisher is out of place standing next to Thor.


Its not too problematic. They can be adjusted. Its the fact that they were not created to exist in a shared universe. Marvel characters were created in response to DC. They were created so that they can exist in the same universe. In fact, their universe is New York. Most heroes are here with some in other places. They started this idea of flawed superheroes. And they wanted the world where they reside to feel real.

Thor and Punisher are not expected to be in the same team. So, there's that.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Ok. Firstly let me clarify that I don't particularly root for Marvel, nor WB, nor Fox. Generally speaking I don't belong to their target audience or I find some of those movies too badly done for my personal tastes. In terms of US cinematic entertainment these days my heart relies on The Planet of the Apes or Blade Runner 2049, and regarding superhero flicks I am more interested in the productive steps and the cultural elements rather than the movies themselves.
> 
> Aside from that, I don't think that these contradictions can really be adjusted. You can't reconcile the sorrowful Superman from MOS with the unreasonably happy-go-lucky guy from JL. And I won't even talk about BatFleck. Of course, you can create you own head canon and say, hey, it's Joker, he can look like a gangsta in a movie and have a completely different look in another one, but I really don't think that WB should count on head canon to make this whole mess work. In a really bizarre way, it's as if they had gone full circle and now we are dealing with Superman Returns again. What is canon? What isn't? Did Superman make Lois forget that they slept together with a kiss? And so on. As far as I am concerned, IF they really want to create a shared universe (and quite frankly it is not mandated that they should) they should simply pull the plug on this one and create a new one from scratch. With a lot of time and patience. Focusing on what these characters should be and represent in their own universe, in their own personal world (years ago the best solution would have been - for example - giving free rein to Vaughan and Millar to create their own Superman trilogy). And keeping in mind that Marvel will probably have already done whatever they want to do, so they should find a way to create something innovative.
> 
> They probably need a Feige figure, and they think that they have found one in Berg+Johns. I don't know much about Berg, while Johns can sometimes be an idea man, but has a fatal flaw - he generally puts the adherence to comic books (in particular visual similarities) before any logical reason for these characters to exist and fight. For some reason, I think that the extremely forced bromance Barry/Supes (especially the first mid-credits scene) has his fingerprints all over it.


Okay. Thanks for sharing your opinion. About films its impossible to hope. They have given no reason to do so. In comics, i found something interesting. So, thanks for that. I wish i could see that discussion about Superman. I know Superman needs work. For comics he is doing fine right now. But hard to say for how long.

----------


## Soubhagya

> From reports in recent days, it's clear that JL's underperformance at the Box office was not much of a surprise to WB. I don't think there is any chaotic panic behind the scenes. That already happened months ago. Hence the reports in September that Warner's was already changing course on a strict cinematic universe for DC. I doubt anything would be different if JL would have done huge other than the fact the people in charge would have gone to both Whedon and Snyder in hopes of having them collaborate on a fast tracked direct JL sequel, and possibly Affleck wouldn't be playing the will he /won't he game with continuing as Batman. Even then it would have to have pulled Avengers numbers. The course was set months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if Aquaman under performs? Then I imagine there will be outright panic. Until then, I doubt anything has changed or will change in regards to the slate from before JL opened.


A film with 300 million dollars production budget failing like this could never be not surprising and  not disastrous. If WB/DC has any interest in setting up a cinematic universe they shall work on rebooting. As you said, Aquaman's failure would practically destroy the universe. Its not supposed to be like this. A couple of duds shall not have such an impact on the whole project.

DCEU is too shaky. I wish they could continue with the same actors but i wish a proper cinematic universe come to life. And thriving and successful. A soft reboot with Flashpoint is now out of reach. And even if they did the only film which was success all across the board was Wonder Woman.

----------


## Soubhagya

> They already have a Kevin Feige but it's two people: Geoff Johns and Jon Berg. Think of those two as essentially Feige if his two strongest attributes were split into two people: Johns has the comic book  knowledge and knows the DC characters like the back of his hand; Berg has the filmmaker  side of Feige since he's an experienced film producer(he's been involved with  movies like_ Edge Of Tomorrow_) so it's a perfect mix of two worlds.  Put  those two together and they're pretty much  DC's answer to Kevin Feige.   Justice League was conceived of before those two came to power and the final product was a byproduct of  a lack of time, and corporatism ruling the day.  
> 
>  Aquaman will be the first film of the Johns/Berg era of DC films where they're involved with the film from start to finish.  That'll be the start of  the 'Rebirth' era of DC films so  hopefully it's smooth sailing from here on out--fingers crossed.  DC already has Aquaman in the can, Wonder Woman 2 is happening no matter what, and Batman is already in really good hands with Matt Reeves.  DC already  has strong filmmakers in Reeves, Jenkins, and Wan, that with their talents can rehabilitate the DC brand. The future for this franchise is very promising.  They've already  hit their lowest point: The only way they can go now   is up.


I wish i could say the same. A while back i was believing the same thing. That Johns would correct the ship. But right now there is nothing to show that i shall put faith in them. For one Rebirth was a soft reboot for DC Comics. They brought back elements which was missing in New 52. To appease fans who were disgruntled with New 52. And they allowed freedom to the writers and artists to do their own thing instead of trying to micromanage.

Now DCEU has no 'old good things' to be brought back. Its rotten from the start. While i like MoS, it divided fans and critics. It did earn some money. Its a sad picture after that. Second, i don't know if they would allow the people to make their films. They are too much into micromanaging. 

And finally they are still directionless. With no knowledge of where to go. Four Harley Quinn film report shows how confused and directionless they are. Harley Quinn was well received but the film was divisive(to put it mildly) for the critics and the fans. It manged to earn some money. Its not a very good idea. Suicide Squad 2 makes some sense. Others not so much. Its the fact, that this when DC is sinking. Not against Harley Quinn. But the situation where they are in.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

So I finally bit the bullet and saw it and if this is a step in the right direction the team didn't go far enough. It isn't as offensively bad as BVS, nay it is better. It's still deserving of being called mediocre at best. But one of the most glaring things about this was that this movie had 4 FX studios and none of them could make the CGI or costumes convincing which I find incredible. This movie has shots which are clearly on a green screen that don't composite well at all. The costumes like whats on Flash don't even look comfortable to wear. How hard is it to just handwave his speed abilities if nobody he's carrying is injured by the speed, or if it's protection at all cause it doesn't work. 

This opens with pretension, a movie villain who is non-existent, and the chemistry isn't really that great. D+
It's alright but I'm convinced the studio can do better.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> So wait a minute? You're mad that people didn't just mindlessly believe you when you made grandiose statements about the inner workings of a movie and flat-out REFUSED to offer any evidence to support your claim? 
> 
> Welcome to the Internet, where "Trust no one unless you know them personally or unless they back up their words with verifiable facts" is pretty much the credo by which we all live.
> 
> Now, if you'll excuse me? I'm late for my lunch date with Stephen Spielberg. He really wants my insights into his next couple movie projects. And no, I will NOT offer any proof that I actually know Stephen! Why should I have to? Just take my word for it already!


I get what you are saying absolutely.  The fact is that is that what I said a long time ago was right.  You were one of the ones saying that WB did not see BvS as a failure and that it was huge success.  Will you admit that you were wrong?  I'll bet that you will put some spin on it rather that do that. I'm also not mad at all... I'm just pointing out  how ridiculous you have sounded over the past year with your claims.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I get what you are saying absolutely.  The fact is that is that what I said a long time ago was right.  You were one of the ones saying that WB did not see BvS as a failure and that it was huge success.  Will you admit that you were wrong?  I'll bet that you will put some spin on it rather that do that. I'm also not mad at all... I'm just pointing out  how ridiculous you have sounded over the past year with your claims.


1.) Without any proof that you're some kind of industry insider, I can just as easily chalk up your prediction as being a lucky guess. 

2.) If I ever said BvS was a huge success, it was very early into the BvS debate cycle when emotions were running high and "Defend the movie against all attacks" was pretty much SOP for the pro-BvS crowd at that time. I agreed a long time ago that the film underperformed. 

Key word? "Underperformed." Not "failure." Not "disaster." Just "It didn't do as well as we were hoping it would do." 

The movie made money. That's a success. End of story. Should it have been a BIGGER success? Unquestionably. I can't think of too many people who would legitimately argue otherwise. That's kind of the disconnect we're having here. As you continue to say: extremists on both sides have an incomplete or inaccurate picture of what happened with BvS. The extreme "anti" crowd won't be satisfied until the "pro" crowd surrenders unconditionally, admits that the movie was utter garbage and a financial failure, and then joins them in spitting on the movie's corpse. The extreme wing of the "pro" crowd, by contrast, continues to argue that the movie performed at or above expectations and that the people who didn't like it are just butthurt that it wasn't Chris Reeves versus Adam West. 

I haven't been on that side in forever, if I ever was on it at all. I'll admit that it didn't do as well as it should have, but I won't admit it was a failure because it doesn't meet the criteria FOR a failure.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> 1.) Without any proof that you're some kind of industry insider, I can just as easily chalk up your prediction as being a lucky guess. 
> 
> 2.) If I ever said BvS was a huge success, it was very early into the BvS debate cycle when emotions were running high and "Defend the movie against all attacks" was pretty much SOP for the pro-BvS crowd at that time. I agreed a long time ago that the film underperformed. 
> 
> Key word? "Underperformed." Not "failure." Not "disaster." Just "It didn't do as well as we were hoping it would do." 
> 
> The movie made money. That's a success. End of story. Should it have been a BIGGER success? Unquestionably. I can't think of too many people who would legitimately argue otherwise.


If it was a success then the studio wouldn't have tried to course correct and fire its scheduled director.  We all knew you would spin it.  Enough has been said.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> If it was a success then the studio wouldn't have tried to course correct and fire its scheduled director.  We all knew you would spin it.  Enough has been said.


They didn't try to fire Snyder. They considered firing him. There's a difference. If the movie was an utter failure, he would've been fired, release schedule be damned. 

And a course correction doesn't mean a complete failure. You can course correct simply by saying "Okay, this didn't do as well as we thought. The engine runs, just not as well as it should be. Let's make a tweak here and a tweak there, and maybe that'll improve performance." 

But what do I know? I'm just "spinning" everything. Apparently, you define "spinning" as "not agreeing with you."

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> They didn't try to fire Snyder. They considered firing him. There's a difference. If the movie was an utter failure, he would've been fired, release schedule be damned. 
> 
> And a course correction doesn't mean a complete failure. You can course correct simply by saying "Okay, this didn't do as well as we thought. The engine runs, just not as well as it should be. Let's make a tweak here and a tweak there, and maybe that'll improve performance." 
> 
> But what do I know? I'm just "spinning" everything. Apparently, you define "spinning" as "not agreeing with you."


Haha.  No what you just said is spinning.  You don't "consider firing" a director after a successful movie.

----------


## Barbatos666

So did WB really consider firing a successful director lol?

----------


## Slowpokeking

I really think if JL has a 7th member, can they use a female?

I always think the big 7 only got 1 female character is too few.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Its not too problematic. They can be adjusted. Its the fact that they were not created to exist in a shared universe. Marvel characters were created in response to DC. They were created so that they can exist in the same universe. In fact, their universe is New York. Most heroes are here with some in other places. They started this idea of flawed superheroes. And they wanted the world where they reside to feel real.
> 
> Thor and Punisher are not expected to be in the same team. So, there's that.


Okay, then. Thor and Hawkeye or any other human that's on the Avengers. Logic would dictate that they shouldn't be on the same team or in the same universe, but they are and it works. Same thing with Batman and Superman. The Fantastic Four would also fit in with DC's crowd of heroes just as much as they do with Marvel's.




> For one Rebirth was a soft reboot for DC Comics. They brought back elements which was missing in New 52. To appease fans who were disgruntled with New 52. And they allowed freedom to the writers and artists to do their own thing instead of trying to micromanage.


The New 52 timeline is dead, dude. If it wasn't dead with Rebirth #1, it definitely died with Superman: Reborn. The N52's defining characteristic, the 5-year thing, is dead and buried.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> So I finally bit the bullet and saw it and if this is a step in the right direction the team didn't go far enough. It isn't as offensively bad as BVS, nay it is better. It's still deserving of being called mediocre at best. But one of the most glaring things about this was that this movie had 4 FX studios and none of them could make the CGI or costumes convincing which I find incredible. This movie has shots which are clearly on a green screen that don't composite well at all. The costumes like whats on Flash don't even look comfortable to wear. How hard is it to just handwave his speed abilities if nobody he's carrying is injured by the speed, or if it's protection at all cause it doesn't work. 
> 
> This opens with pretension, a movie villain who is non-existent, and the chemistry isn't really that great. D+
> It's alright but I'm convinced the studio can do better.


This echoes my sentiments pretty succinctly. Like, oh my god, could Cyborg and Flash look any more ridiculous? The aesthetics of this film in general are just absolutely horrid. That's a problem that even Wonder Woman suffered from some. The CGI is just so bad. I don't understand why, though. WB should be able to afford good special FX. There are a few good moments, like *spoilers:*
the chase scene with the Amazons on Themyscira
*end of spoilers* and the fight scenes, but there were also times I had to hang my head cuz I couldn't believe what I was watching.

----------


## Soubhagya

> This echoes my sentiments pretty succinctly. Like, oh my god, could Cyborg and Flash look any more ridiculous? The aesthetics of this film in general are just absolutely horrid. That's a problem that even Wonder Woman suffered from some. The CGI is just so bad. I don't understand why, though. WB should be able to afford good special FX. There are a few good moments, like *spoilers:*
> the chase scene with the Amazons on Themyscira
> *end of spoilers* and the fight scenes, but there were also times I had to hang my head cuz I couldn't believe what I was watching.


Cgi problems. People are thinking how something like this cost 300 million to produce including 25 million for reshoots? That's simple. They ran out of time.  Zack Snyder left after the unfortunate family tragedy. So, Whedon stepped in to finish the film and do reshoots. Now he had six months to do all of this. Completing the vfx, reshooting scenes, editing and putting a finished film within a timeframe of six months to meet the release date.

Had the film been pushed back the final film would have improved for sure. Especially visual effects. The final product is a rushed job. We can see it. Its a wonder that it is a coherent enough film. It could have been far worse.

I absolutely enjoyed the film. But i can see the complaints others are making. They don't bother me. But still it would have been far far better had the release date been pushed back.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This echoes my sentiments pretty succinctly. Like, oh my god, could Cyborg and Flash look any more ridiculous? The aesthetics of this film in general are just absolutely horrid. That's a problem that even Wonder Woman suffered from some. The CGI is just so bad. I don't understand why, though. WB should be able to afford good special FX. There are a few good moments, like *spoilers:*
> the chase scene with the Amazons on Themyscira
> *end of spoilers* and the fight scenes, but there were also times I had to hang my head cuz I couldn't believe what I was watching.


I chalk up the Flash's costume to being a prototype.  However primarily... I am chalking it up to the ego of the costume designer.  These costume designers are some of the biggest ego maniacs you'll ever meet.  Sometimes in the process of "making their own mark" they'll stray too far away from the original concept.

----------


## Johnny

> I really think if JL has a 7th member, can they use a female?
> 
> I always think the big 7 only got 1 female character is too few.


No, the 7th member is Hal Jordan. Always. Period. The end.  :Smile: 

In all seriousness, if I had to choose a female member, it would likely be Zatanna. If there's an underrated character who needs some movie love, it's her.

----------


## Jokerz79

> No, the 7th member is Hal Jordan. Always. Period. The end. 
> 
> In all seriousness, if I had to choose another female member, it would likely be Zatanna. One hell of an underrated character.


I think Animated Justice League got the 7 best with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Martian Manhunter, and Hawkgirl.

----------


## Johnny

> I think Animated Justice League got the 7 best with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Martian Manhunter, and Hawkgirl.


I don't. The DCAU had great shows nonetheless.  :Smile:

----------


## Slowpokeking

> No, the 7th member is Hal Jordan. Always. Period. The end. 
> 
> In all seriousness, if I had to choose a female member, it would likely be Zatanna. If there's an underrated character who needs some movie love, it's her.


Or Mera replaces Aquaman.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I wish i could say the same. A while back i was believing the same thing. That Johns would correct the ship. But right now there is nothing to show that i shall put faith in them. For one Rebirth was a soft reboot for DC Comics. They brought back elements which was missing in New 52. To appease fans who were disgruntled with New 52. And they allowed freedom to the writers and artists to do their own thing instead of trying to micromanage.
> 
> Now DCEU has no 'old good things' to be brought back. Its rotten from the start. While i like MoS, it divided fans and critics. It did earn some money. Its a sad picture after that. Second, i don't know if they would allow the people to make their films. They are too much into micromanaging. 
> 
> And finally they are still directionless. With no knowledge of where to go. Four Harley Quinn film report shows how confused and directionless they are. Harley Quinn was well received but the film was divisive(to put it mildly) for the critics and the fans. It manged to earn some money. Its not a very good idea. Suicide Squad 2 makes some sense. Others not so much. Its the fact, that this when DC is sinking. Not against Harley Quinn. But the situation where they are in.


If Warner Bros. can bring Batman back from the cinematic grave that Batman and Robin  put  him in, then they could surely  resuscitate the DCEU.  Do some recasting, take a new visual approach, and make active attempts to distance themselves from the previous clunkers(but do it competently this time).  Surprise your audience with something they didn't know  they wanted instead  of  pampering them with something they know they wanted like Justice League did.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> If Warner Bros. can bring Batman back from the cinematic grave that Batman and Robin  put  him in, then they could surely  resuscitate the DCEU.  Do some recasting, take a new visual approach, and make active attempts to distance themselves from the previous clunkers(but do it competently this time).  Surprise your audience with something they didn't they wanted instead  of  pampering them with something they know they wanted like Justice League did.


A new visual aesthetic would be beneficial.  It would help to distance themselves from the previous incarnation.  At the same time it would be unwise to recast Wonder Woman or Cavil.  Obviously Affleck is likely gone.  While audiences generally liked Miller as Flash, I'm not sure that he did enough to solidify himself in the role.  Mamoa's fate as Aquaman will be determined next winter.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I always think the "big 7"  needs to have more than 1 female and DC got so many cool heroine. Not sure why didn't they do so(other than DCAU).

----------


## manofsteel1979

Even as someone who generally liked and defended the DCEU films (while admitting their flaws) , I thought this video was priceless and dead on about the extremists on both sides in most respects. The die hard DCEU fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that the films aren't perfect and completely disregards any valid criticisms( the press secretary) and the critics who nitpick these films in the most inaine ways while occasionally bringing up a valid point( the press). The only thing I'd add would have been one of the press people shouting out something about Superman being a murderer or whining that he isn't like Chris Reeve. Otherwise I think this was a near perfect encapsulation of the never ending nerd wars on the net. Enjoy!

----------


## Barbatos666

I think DCEU fights should have smaller scale and less effects. We dont need giant explosions and land getting cratered in every single fight. This part of the reason their CGI looks so lacking. Too much displays of grandiose power. The rumble junkies might get a kick but this power creep has hurt their films CGI and even narrative(MOS, the constant explanations about vacated areas).

----------


## Buried Alien

> I think DCEU fights should have smaller scale and less effects. We dont need giant explosions and land getting cratered in every single fight. This part of the reason their CGI looks so lacking. Too much displays of grandiose power. The rumble junkies might get a kick but this power creep has hurt their films CGI and even narrative(MOS, the constant explanations about vacated areas).


Actually, compared to what we've seen in the comics over the years, the depiction of the characters' abilities in the DCEU has been fairly conservative.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Buried Alien

> I think DCEU fights should have smaller scale and less effects. We dont need giant explosions and land getting cratered in every single fight. This part of the reason their CGI looks so lacking. Too much displays of grandiose power. The rumble junkies might get a kick but this power creep has hurt their films CGI and even narrative(MOS, the constant explanations about vacated areas).


Actually, compared to what we've seen in the comics over the years, the depiction of the characters' abilities in the DCEU has been fairly conservative.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> A new visual aesthetic would be beneficial.  It would help to distance themselves from the previous incarnation.  At the same time it would be unwise to recast Wonder Woman or Cavil.  Obviously Affleck is likely gone.  While audiences generally liked Miller as Flash, I'm not sure that he did enough to solidify himself in the role.  Mamoa's fate as Aquaman will be determined next winter.


Hence why I said "some recasting.'' Perhaps I should've phrased it better.   I'd actually be in favor of replacing  Cavil--he's already been in three under-preforming DCEU movies.  keeping him on would immediately associate the movie he is in with the previous clunkers.  Gadot I'd keep since she was in WW which audiences liked and audiences don't really know Momoa and Miller so well  that can escape somewhat unscathed from Justice League's under-performance.  Affleck and Cavil should go IMO.   Cavil is a good Superman, yes, but it's not he's really irreplaceable.  Much like there's plenty of great actors who can play Batman after Affeck has(or already has)  hanged up the cowl the same could be said about Cavil and Superman.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I think DCEU fights should have smaller scale and less effects. We dont need giant explosions and land getting cratered in every single fight. This part of the reason their CGI looks so lacking. Too much displays of grandiose power. The rumble junkies might get a kick but this power creep has hurt their films CGI and even narrative(MOS, the constant explanations about vacated areas).


No, we need it since it's unique.

----------


## manofsteel1979

Generally I agree that not every fight needs to be huge, but the one in MOS was refreshing in a way and original because it was the first time a fight between multiple people with the power level of Superman was shown in a logical manner. It wouldn't be like a chorographed ballet ala Superman II where a few windows got smashed  and a few cars would get blown up. Of course it would be 9/11 levels of damage. I agree by the end it became repetitive and slightly gratuitus, but that's what would happen. 

The problem is that the fight sequences there sort of blew the load early and pretty much rendered everything that came after anticlimactic, especially in JL. Although, to be fair, when Snyder was filming MOS he thought he was doing the first part of a Superman trilogy, not a three movie arc to JL.

In retrospect, had the idea of a DCEU extended universe existed from the start, an invasion by Zod would have been a better basis for the League to form than Steppenwolf, especially since we probably won't get Darkseid anytime soon.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Hence why I said "some recasting.'' Perhaps I should've phrased it better.   I'd actually be in favor of replacing  Cavil--he's already been in three under-preforming DCEU movies.  keeping him on would immediately associate the movie he is in with the previous clunkers.  Gadot I'd keep since she was in WW which audiences liked and audiences don't really know Momoa and Miller so well  that can escape somewhat unscathed from Justice League's under-performance.  Affleck and Cavil should go IMO.   Cavil is a good Superman, yes, but it's not he's really irreplaceable.  Much like there's plenty of great actors who can play Batman after Affeck has(or already has)  hanged up the cowl the same could be said about Cavil and Superman.


Keep Cavill, IMO. Unlike Affleck he still wants to play this role and is passionate about it. I say he's earned one more shot after all the crap fans and critics have tossed his way because of Snyder's creative decisions. The fact he still wants to play it after all of that tells me he's still the right guy. Lesser actors would have quit after the Man of Murder/ Hobo of steel childishness happened with MOS.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Actually, compared to what we've seen in the comics over the years, the depiction of the characters' abilities in the DCEU has been fairly conservative.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


The comics have shown us multiverses exploding and being Reborn. What I'm trying to say is that there is too much excesses in the DCEU. Why does Superman even need to be that powerful? Power levels have hurt both MOS and JL. Why does Doomsday have to explode after every 2 minutes? Why Steppenwolf have to randomly strike the ground? Why does Ares have to throw stuff using TK randomly? In fact why do we even need Doomsday and Steppenwolf as big bads? If their CGI isn't up to the mark then maybe they should be more judicious about how to use it instead of using all CGI characters in ridiculously over the top battles.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Generally I agree that not every fight needs to be huge, but the one in MOS was refreshing in a way and original because it was the first time a fight between multiple people with the power level of Superman was shown in a logical manner. It wouldn't be like a chorographed ballet ala Superman II where a few windows got smashed  and a few cars would get blown up. Of course it would be 9/11 levels of damage. I agree by the end it became repetitive and slightly gratuitus, but that's what would happen. 
> 
> The problem is that the fight sequences there sort of blew the load early and pretty much rendered everything that came after anticlimactic, especially in JL. Although, to be fair, when Snyder was filming MOS he thought he was doing the first part of a Superman trilogy, not a three movie arc to JL.
> 
> In retrospect, had the idea of a DCEU extended universe existed from the start, an invasion by Zod would have been a better basis for the League to form than Steppenwolf, especially since we probably won't get Darkseid anytime soon.


It was so amazing, I only wish there are more fights like that.

Doomsday was a disappointment because too much energy blast.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Hence why I said "some recasting.'' Perhaps I should've phrased it better.   I'd actually be in favor of replacing  Cavil--he's already been in three under-preforming DCEU movies.  keeping him on would immediately associate the movie he is in with the previous clunkers.  Gadot I'd keep since she was in WW which audiences liked and audiences don't really know Momoa and Miller so well  that can escape somewhat unscathed from Justice League's under-performance.  Affleck and Cavil should go IMO.   Cavil is a good Superman, yes, but it's not he's really irreplaceable.


I liked Miller enough in JL with some criticisms.  I've stated before that he'll need a stronger director in a standalone movie.  I'd favor a recast.  I think Ezra will try to play up the "annoying" and "goofiness" in a solo movie too much.  It would get old fast.  I'd prefer that the director/writer of the Flash movie have the final say in the Flash casting.  If Aquaman does well in theaters which I think it will, then Mamoa will probably solidify himself as Aquaman.  I think Cyborg would be the easiest to let go.  




> In retrospect, had the idea of a DCEU extended universe existed from the start


I couldn't stress this enough.  




> Keep Cavill, IMO. Unlike Affleck he still wants to play this role and is passionate about it. I say he's earned one more shot after all the crap fans and critics have tossed his way because of Snyder's creative decisions. The fact he still wants to play it after all of that tells me he's still the right guy.


It could all come down to how well received his next movie in contrast to how much money he asks for in his next contract.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> _Generally I agree that not every fight needs to be huge, but the one in MOS was refreshing in a way and original because it was the first time a fight between multiple people with the power level of Superman was shown in a logical manner._ It wouldn't be like a chorographed ballet ala Superman II where a few windows got smashed  and a few cars would get blown up. Of course it would be 9/11 levels of damage. I agree by the end it became repetitive and slightly gratuitus, but that's what would happen. 
> 
> The problem is that the fight sequences there sort of blew the load early and pretty much rendered everything that came after anticlimactic, especially in JL. Although, to be fair, when Snyder was filming MOS he thought he was doing the first part of a Superman trilogy, not a three movie arc to JL.
> 
> In retrospect, had the idea of a DCEU extended universe existed from the start, an invasion by Zod would have been a better basis for the League to form than Steppenwolf, especially since we probably won't get Darkseid anytime soon.


Logical manner? Dude, the way Man Of Steel depicts the collateral damage was too over-the-top and kind  of excessive. The third act was ridiculous.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I don't. The DCAU had great shows nonetheless.


Honestly I don't get the need for Hal Jordan he's the least interesting human Green Lantern IMO. I also loved having a Thangarian on the team and J'onn deserves to be on the League.

----------


## Johnny

> Honestly I don't get the need for Hal Jordan he's the least interesting human Green Lantern IMO.


That's fine, I just disagree with that.




> I also loved having a Thangarian on the team and *J'onn deserves to be on the League.*


But I certainly don't disagree with this.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I liked Miller enough in JL with some criticisms.  I've stated before that he'll need a stronger director in a standalone movie.  I'd favor a recast.  I think Ezra will try to play up the "annoying" and "goofiness" in a solo movie too much.  It would get old fast.  I'd prefer that the director/writer of the Flash movie have the final say in the Flash casting.  If Aquaman does well in theaters which I think it will, then Mamoa will probably solidify himself as Aquaman.  I think Cyborg would be the easiest to let go.


An actor lives and dies by their director. I think Miller might be able to dial it down somewhat if he can get  a real good director that knows how to balance brevity and seriousness.  Both Whedon and Snyder tend to swing too far in the pendulum in their respective tonal strengths sometimes: Snyder can do moody atmosphere and gravitas  well but he tends to push that to the point it becomes self-serious and Whedon can do character interactions and humor well but he has the problem of pushing that too much that it kills dramatic  tension(and that's evident with his work on  Justice League and Age Of Ultron).  

 Miller could be entertaining in the role but for me  it didn't play up the   ''wide-eyed, youthful, wet-behind-the ears" superhero in a manner that I found endearing or  charming(i.e, Tom Holland's Peter Parker). He came across as obnoxious, bratty, and snotty and part of that I put the blame of Whedon/Snyder and the writing. 

It also doesn't help that he doesn't act like comic book Barry Allen.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I liked Miller enough in JL with some criticisms.  I've stated before that he'll need a stronger director in a standalone movie.  I'd favor a recast.  I think Ezra will try to play up the "annoying" and "goofiness" in a solo movie too much.  It would get old fast.  I'd prefer that the director/writer of the Flash movie have the final say in the Flash casting.  If Aquaman does well in theaters which I think it will, then Mamoa will probably solidify himself as Aquaman.  I think Cyborg would be the easiest to let go.  
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't stress this enough.  
> 
> 
> 
> It could all come down to how well received his next movie in contrast to how much money he asks for in his next contract.


Well, he has one more movie in his contract according to reports, and there were rumblings after BvS that he and his management team would take a larger role in the production of his next Superman outing post-JL,so if the studio does indeed decide to do another Superman film in the next 5 years, Henry will be involved. Of course, I think it all depends on Aquaman at this point. As I said earlier, if Aquaman does well, we will see the slate start back up and continue. If not, then there will be no solo Superman movie and they will either have him cameo in wonder Woman 2 as Superman to burn off his contract or just cast him in another Warners movie.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Logical manner? Dude, the way Man Of Steel depicts the collateral damage was too over-the-top and kind  of excessive. The third act was ridiculous.


So...Two invulnerable  beings with the power to spit sun's out of their eyes and topple mountains with their fists Wouldn't do that much damage? It most certainly would. 

Now, yeah the fight is a bit redundant given the earlier Smallville stuff, but realistically, unless both opponents were holding back, a clash between Supes and Zod in the real world would be that extreme.

Which again, if the DCEU had been planned from MOS on, the grand finale should have been Zod's invasion and this fight between Supes and Zod with the JL trying to maybe mitigate the damage and save people.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

The way they depicted  the damage was ridiculous.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The way they depicted  the damage was ridiculous.


Two gods fighting in the middle of a city would, and should, cause huge damage.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Two gods fighting in the middle of a city would, and should, cause huge damage.


Maybe they should'nt have been depicted as being so godlike in the first place. If Kryptonians weren't so overpowered maybe JL and MOS would have lost a fair amount of criticism

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Maybe they should'nt have been depicted as being so godlike in the first place. If Kryptonians weren't so overpowered maybe JL and MOS would have lost a fair amount of criticism


Kryptonians are the cream of the power crop in comics. Always have been. Always will be. 

It's that extreme of power that forms the basis of Superman's character. He's almost ALWAYS holding back. When he doesn't hold back? That's how you get MOS.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The way they depicted  the damage was ridiculous.


It wasn't really any more severe than the damage in the first Avengers movie. There was just less quipping and jokes, which is probably more appropriate to the situation. 




> Maybe they should'nt have been depicted as being so godlike in the first place. If Kryptonians weren't so overpowered maybe JL and MOS would have lost a fair amount of criticism


Asking for Kryptonians to not be overpowered is like asking for the moon. They've been overpowered since most (if not all) of us have been born. It's time people just got over it already.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> No, the 7th member is Hal Jordan. Always. Period. The end. 
> 
> In all seriousness, if I had to choose a female member, it would likely be Zatanna. If there's an underrated character who needs some movie love, it's her.


Personally, while I love Hal, I could live with him  NOT being in the League or a League with no Lanterns at all. If anything, Id like to see Jonn brought in and Victor go right on back to the Titans. IMO, the League can still feel like the League without a Lantern, but it hardly feels like the League without Jonn.

----------


## Frontier

> Personally, while I love Hal, I could live with him  NOT being in the League or a League with no Lanterns at all. If anything, I’d like to see J’onn brought in and Victor go right on back to the Titans. IMO, the League can still feel like the League without a Lantern, but it hardly feels like the League without J’onn.


I think the League feels weird without a Lantern, but I'd only really want Hal in there because Barry is (even though I doubt they'll ever adapt their friendship here).

----------


## Johnny

> Personally, while I love Hal, I could live with him  NOT being in the League or a League with no Lanterns at all. *If anything, I’d like to see J’onn brought in and Victor go right on back to the Titans*. IMO, the League can still feel like the League without a Lantern, but it hardly feels like the League without J’onn.


I guess with the JL movie underperforming, that could be a real possibility now. If JL did better, Cyborg was clearly going to be established as an essential JL member, but it didn't, so I don't think his future with the League is really set in stone now.

My previous comment was in jest, but on a more serious note, Hal's one of DC's big boys and someone that should finally be done justice on screen, so I'd rather see him with the League, than not. It's a moot point now anyway.

----------


## Johnny

As for MM and Cyborg, this movie proved you can have both in the JL.

----------


## Carabas

> Two gods fighting in the middle of a city would, and should, cause huge damage.


Unless they're in a mainstream superhero movie, especially so if one of them has a huge S plastered over his chest.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Maybe they should'nt have been depicted as being so godlike in the first place. If Kryptonians weren't so overpowered maybe JL and MOS would have lost a fair amount of criticism


General audience come to see Superman partly because of his awesome power and fighting scenes. That's why SR failed and MOS was successful.

MOS got flaws, but the action scenes were the best part and possibly the best action scenes of superhero movies. Without it even its box office will flop.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Unless they're in a mainstream superhero movie, especially so if one of them has a huge S plastered over his chest.


Mainstream Superhero movies sell because of the BIG BIG action scenes. 

The problem is not damage, but chose to focus or ignore the aftermath of the damage or not. BVS chose to focus on it and failed.

----------


## Johnny

> I think the League feels weird without a Lantern, but I'd only really want Hal in there because Barry is (even though I doubt they'll ever adapt their friendship here).


Which is a damn shame.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> And finally they are still directionless. With no knowledge of where to go. Four Harley Quinn film report shows how confused and directionless they are. Harley Quinn was well received but the film was divisive(to put it mildly) for the critics and the fans. It manged to earn some money. Its not a very good idea. Suicide Squad 2 makes some sense. Others not so much. Its the fact, that this when DC is sinking. Not against Harley Quinn. But the situation where they are in.


Four Harley Quinn movies is a bit of an exaggeration.  No one ever said there were going to be four Harley Quinn movies.  People just interpreted a vague  comment by Margot Robbie and went nuts over it.
And none of three announced are just Harley Quinn movies.  Suicide Squad 2 is a movie with Deadshot, Captain Boomerang, Katana, Amanda Waller, Killer Croc and also Harley Quinn.  Gotham City Sirens
is a movie with Poison Ivy, Catwoman and also Harley Quinn. Joker & Harley Quinn is a movie with Joker in it and also Harley Quinn.  None of these are a stand alone Harley Quinn movie, unlike Wonder Woman,
Man of Steel, and Aquaman were for their respective characters.  Sure Harley Quinn is the big draw, but even without Harley Quinn SS2 would still work.  So only two confirmed where Harley Quinn is essential,
and neither is just Harley Quinn takes on the world all by herself.




> I really think if JL has a 7th member, can they use a female?
> 
> I always think the big 7 only got 1 female character is too few.


If Crisis on Earth-X can have 9 female heroes and and 12 male heroes in one story, and even a female villain, I think Justice League should have been able to fit in a few more women as part of the
team. At least Mera, as she was already in the movie.  Even Lois Lane could have been more help than just there to calm Clark down.




> No, the 7th member is Hal Jordan. Always. Period. The end. 
> 
> In all seriousness, if I had to choose a female member, it would likely be Zatanna. If there's an underrated character who needs some movie love, it's her.





> I think Animated Justice League got the 7 best with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Martian Manhunter, and Hawkgirl.


I'd go with Hawkgirl too but then you probably need to have  Hawkman also so it still is mostly a sausage fest.




> Maybe they should'nt have been depicted as being so godlike in the first place. If Kryptonians weren't so overpowered maybe JL and MOS would have lost a fair amount of criticism


The part that totally took me out of it, OP them to ridiculous extremes, was Zod splitting a building in half with just his heat vision.

----------


## manofsteel1979

It's funny.... Show Superman and Kryptonians having the power to turn back time or pushing planets, no one bats an eye,because it's part of the plan.

You dare show the effects of what such godlike power really would have on the real world...And Everyone loses their minds.

----------


## Buried Alien

> It's funny.... Show Superman and Kryptonians having the power to turn back time or pushing planets, no one bats an eye,because it's part of the plan.
> 
> You dare show the effects of what such godlike power really would have on the real world...And Everyone loses their minds.


Trying to figure out what DC/Superman fans actually want results in a multitude of Schrödinger's Cat scenarios.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I guess with the JL movie underperforming, that could be a real possibility now. If JL did better, Cyborg was clearly going to be established as an essential JL member, but it didn't, so I don't think his future with the League is really set in stone now.


Looks like you just found a silver lining in all of this. Huzzah!

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I think the League feels weird without a Lantern, but I'd only really want Hal in there because Barry is (even though I doubt they'll ever adapt their friendship here).


True, and I would eventually want a Lantern to join, probably Hal even. But he's already not a founding member in the cinematic world, and I think maybe DC could experiment with making the GLC like the X-Men of the DCU: being in their own corner of the universe, fighting their own enemies, and occasionally meeting up with the JLA when its needed, for like world-ending threats. I think it would kinda help make the DCEU feel a bit...bigger, I guess.

----------


## Ascended

> It's funny.... Show Superman and Kryptonians having the power to turn back time or pushing planets, no one bats an eye,because it's part of the plan.
> 
> You dare show the effects of what such godlike power really would have on the real world...And Everyone loses their minds.


I understood that reference!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's funny.... Show Superman and Kryptonians having the power to turn back time or pushing planets, no one bats an eye,because it's part of the plan.
> 
> You dare show the effects of what such godlike power really would have on the real world...And Everyone loses their minds.


Yep. That's it exactly. Reversing time is ridiculously OP. Strange how THAT doesn't garner any criticism. If Superman can fly THAT fast? He should be more than capable of wrecking a skyscraper with a punch. He doesn't, of course, because "Silver Age physics."

----------


## Carabas

> Mainstream Superhero movies sell because of the BIG BIG action scenes.


Looks at Justice League and Dawn Of Justice...

Not always they don't.

----------


## Carabas

> It's funny.... Show Superman and Kryptonians having the power to turn back time or pushing planets, no one bats an eye,because it's part of the plan.
> 
> You dare show the effects of what such godlike power really would have on the real world...And Everyone loses their minds.


You really shouldn't put superheroes in the real world. If nothing else, the DCEU has soundly proven that it doesn't work very well. 

It's okay in Nolan's trilogy about some rich guy in a dracula costume who bears some similarities to the superhero Batman, but full-powered Kryptonians ramapging through a city? That breaks the genre. That's no longer a superhero movie. That's a disaster movie. It's Godzilla with capes.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Looks at Justice League and Dawn Of Justice...
> 
> Not always they don't.


The big action scenes were the best part of BVS, even the critics don't point at it.

JL suffered from the wayy too fast driving plot and some awful CGI, not because of the big fight.

Nobody came to see Superman rescuing plane with no big action scene, this is WHY SR has failed.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> You really shouldn't put superheroes in the real world. If nothing else, the DCEU has soundly proven that it doesn't work very well. 
> 
> It's okay in Nolan's trilogy about some rich guy in a dracula costume who bears some similarities to the superhero Batman, but full-powered Kryptonians ramapging through a city? That breaks the genre. That's no longer a superhero movie. That's a disaster movie. It's Godzilla with capes.


They are not in the real world, it's called DCEU, no real building is being destroyed, they could perfectly ignore everything if they want. Just like in MCU they don't focus on the damage caused by superheroes that much.(other than CA3)

----------


## Flash Gordon

> They are not in the real world, it's called DCEU, no real building is being destroyed, they could perfectly ignore everything if they want. Just like in MCU they don't focus on the damage caused by superheroes that much.(other than CA3)


Cap goes 100% out of his way to try and help civilians get out of Midtown Manhattan in the Avengers.

He also does everything he can to get random people out of harm while on that floating city in Avenger 2.

Cap is literally always trying to help people and prevent damage.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Cap goes 100% out of his way to try and help civilians get out of Midtown Manhattan in the Avengers.
> 
> He also does everything he can to get random people out of harm while on that floating city in Avenger 2.
> 
> Cap is literally always trying to help people and prevent damage.


It's not important really, as long as they don't focus on the aftermath or show many people dying due to it, there is no problem. General audience would never care about it, they went to see big big action scenes.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> It's not important really, as long as they don't focus on the aftermath or show many people dying due to it, there is no problem. General audience would never care about it, they went to see big big action scenes.


To the narrative of a superhero story it is very important.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Personally I'm getting tired of two things in comic book movies: alien invasions and large-scale urban throw downs. I much prefer when there is more creative combat and more interaction with the environment. I suppose I think less is more in a lot of ways, and it is harder to pull off with more super-powered heroes, but The Matrix showed a good amount of creativity with a few very powerful beings in the mix.

----------


## Jaddor

> Personally I'm getting tired of two things in comic book movies: alien invasions and large-scale urban throw downs. I much prefer when there is more creative combat and more interaction with the environment. I suppose I think less is more in a lot of ways, and it is harder to pull off with more super-powered heroes, but The Matrix showed a good amount of creativity with a few very powerful beings in the mix.


I feel you. reason I think new mutants will be the best comic film of 2017

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Yep. That's it exactly. Reversing time is ridiculously OP. Strange how THAT doesn't garner any criticism. If Superman can fly THAT fast? He should be more than capable of wrecking a skyscraper with a punch. He doesn't, of course, because "Silver Age physics."


Though in "Superman: The Movie", Superman turning back time did get a lot of criticism.  That's the one big flaw in the movie that was otherwise well received.
So what works in the comic books isn't necessarily a good idea for a movie.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> To the narrative of a superhero story it is very important.


No it's not. Superman never intended to cause damage, he got to stop Zod and there are prices. As long as the movie doesn't show ppl die or suffer from it, it's easily ignored.

In the comic such damage happens almost every couple of days, remember. Movies are a bit more serious than the comic, but really not that big of a deal.

----------


## Ascended

> Cap goes 100% out of his way to try and help civilians get out of Midtown Manhattan in the Avengers.
> 
> He also does everything he can to get random people out of harm while on that floating city in Avenger 2.
> 
> Cap is literally always trying to help people and prevent damage.


If you're saying we didn't see enough of Clark saving civilians in MoS.......I don't disagree, but......

Steve was only able to help save innocents because the power house Avengers were fighting the aliens. Steve was playing support during the battle. I don't recall seeing Thor, Tony, or Hulk saving civilians during the invasion. They had their hands full dealing with the aliens. Just like Clark did.

Had Clark been working with other heroes, the battle of Metropolis might've gone quite differently. 

Not that this excuses Clark's inability to draw the fights away from populated areas. He's working at a few disadvantages there but still.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> If you're saying we didn't see enough of Clark saving civilians in MoS.......I don't disagree, but......
> 
> Steve was only able to help save innocents because the power house Avengers were fighting the aliens. Steve was playing support during the battle. I don't recall seeing Thor, Tony, or Hulk saving civilians during the invasion. They had their hands full dealing with the aliens. Just like Clark did.
> 
> Had Clark been working with other heroes, the battle of Metropolis might've gone quite differently. 
> 
> Not that this excuses Clark's inability to draw the fights away from populated areas. He's working at a few disadvantages there but still.


Batman was there...

----------


## Carabas

> If you're saying we didn't see enough of Clark saving civilians in MoS.......I don't disagree, but......
> 
> Steve was only able to help save innocents because the power house Avengers were fighting the aliens. Steve was playing support during the battle. I don't recall seeing Thor, Tony, or Hulk saving civilians during the invasion. They had their hands full dealing with the aliens. Just like Clark did.
> 
> Had Clark been working with other heroes, the battle of Metropolis might've gone quite differently. 
> 
> Not that this excuses Clark's inability to draw the fights away from populated areas. He's working at a few disadvantages there but still.


No, it wouldn't. Because it's fiction. Superman isn't real, and everything that happens inhis stories happens because the writer/director/whatever wants  it to happen that way.

The creative forces  here wanted to not just show the carnage but delight in it. It was practically the entire point of Man Of Steel. So yes, no matter how much backup Superman would have had, the carnage would still have happened because the writer was  really invested in having the carnage.

And that, IMO, is just entirely the wrong attitude when making a mainstream  superhero movie about Superman.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> No, it wouldn't. Because it's fiction. Superman isn't real, and everything that happens inhis stories happens because the writer/director/whatever wants  it to happen that way.
> 
> The creative forces  here wanted to not just show the carnage but delight in it. It was practically the entire point of Man Of Steel. So yes, no matter how much backup Superman would have had, the carnage would still have happened because the writer was  really invested in having the carnage.
> 
> And that, IMO, is just entirely the wrong attitude when making a mainstream  superhero movie about Superman.


Carnage is a bit strong since we didn't see a single human visibly hurt in Metropolis until BvS. (Unless you count Jenny and it was minor). If there's going to be urban destruction I'd rather they treat it as real and address it. It doesn't always have to be the way they executed it, but it's a pretty common theme in comics for society to fear or remain skeptical superheroes and question their actions.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> No, it wouldn't. Because it's fiction. Superman isn't real.


And all the damage didn't really happen, what's the point here?

----------


## Barbatos666

> It's funny.... Show Superman and Kryptonians having the power to turn back time or pushing planets, no one bats an eye,because it's part of the plan.
> 
> You dare show the effects of what such godlike power really would have on the real world...And Everyone loses their minds.


I have no idea why DCEU fans resort to false equivalencies. Power levels did not hurt the Reeves films narratively like they hurt JL. That's not even debatable.
And DCEU'S consistent attempts at gransiosity in terms of power fall flat because of bad CGI. I honestly dont care what Reeves did or what SA Supes did or what comics Superman does. I wasn't even thinking about them but I do remember watching BVS and JL and I never want to see CGI villains exploding all over the screen again. For all the displays of power most of the DCEU doesn't even have good fights or ones that are visually pleasing because half the time its about things exploding around them than the actual battle between the characters.Even Wonder Woman vs Ares was just bad.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I have no idea why DCEU fans resort to false equivalencies. Power levels did not hurt the Reeves films narratively like they hurt JL. That's not even debatable.
> And DCEU'S consistent attempts at gransiosity in terms of power fall flat because of bad CGI. I honestly dont care what Reeves did or what SA Supes did or what comics Superman does. I wasn't even thinking about them but I do remember watching BVS and JL and I never want to see CGI villains exploding all over the screen again. For all the displays of power most of the DCEU doesn't even have good fights or ones that are visually pleasing because half the time its about things exploding around them than the actual battle between the characters.Even Wonder Woman vs Ares was just bad.


It has to be done well, MoS has probably the greatest superhero action scenes.

----------


## Confuzzled

Wonder Woman total budget was less than 150M and it had to share it with the period setting, costumes, the other action sequences etc. So it was understandable why the Ares battle looked like a Final Boss Fight from a late 90's video game.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> And all the damage didn't really happen, what's the point here?


The point is that Superman doesn't need to be in a situation where he's set up to fail. That's the writing.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> If you're saying we didn't see enough of Clark saving civilians in MoS.......I don't disagree, but......
> 
> Steve was only able to help save innocents because the power house Avengers were fighting the aliens. Steve was playing support during the battle. I don't recall seeing Thor, Tony, or Hulk saving civilians during the invasion. They had their hands full dealing with the aliens. Just like Clark did.
> 
> Had Clark been working with other heroes, the battle of Metropolis might've gone quite differently. 
> 
> Not that this excuses Clark's inability to draw the fights away from populated areas. He's working at a few disadvantages there but still.


I was mainly responding to "there's no attempt to stop damage or save lives in the MCU". Literally every single thing Cap does is to prevent carnage. That's honestly probably his first thought. 

I could argue that Tony does the same. Hulk is a different story, but that's in his character.

Superman doesn't need a bunch of other random heroes coordinating a strategic battle against Zod. He just needs to not let thousands upon thousands of people die. He's SUPERMAN, he can do it. He can brawl with Zod and save the day. Sure, there will be deaths but they will be more impactful due to the lives saved by our hero. The only reason he can't do the impossible is due to writers not having him do any impossible feats. 

I mean, I thought Man of Steel was fine. It just could have been improved upon. It's BvS and JL that are bad movies.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Wonder Woman total budget was less than 150M and it had to share it with the period setting, costumes, the other action sequences etc. So it was understandable why the Ares battle looked like a Final Boss Fight from a late 90's video game.


I'd imagine the battle of Themyscira cost a lot more money than the fight with Ares when you consider all the actors and stunt doubles involved, wranglers for the horses, costumes, and it had its fair share of effects.

----------


## Agent Z

> I was mainly responding to "there's no attempt to stop damage or save lives in the MCU". Literally every single thing Cap does is to prevent carnage. That's honestly probably his first thought. 
> 
> I could argue that Tony does the same. Hulk is a different story, but that's in his character.
> 
> Superman doesn't need a bunch of other random heroes coordinating a strategic battle against Zod. He just needs to not let thousands upon thousands of people die. He's SUPERMAN, he can do it. He can brawl with Zod and save the day. Sure, there will be deaths but they will be more impactful due to the lives saved by our hero. The only reason he can't do the impossible is the writers.
> 
> That said, I thought Man of Steel was fine. It's BvS and JL that are bad movies.


There is a difference between "let" and "not being able to prevent"

----------


## Agent Z

> No, it wouldn't. Because it's fiction. Superman isn't real, and everything that happens inhis stories happens because the writer/director/whatever wants  it to happen that way.


What exactly is this argument even supposed to be? Yeah it happened the way it did because that's what the film makers wanted. So what? It isn't like just having it so nobody died in that fight would have been any less fictional. This argument only ever seems to come up when it comes to Superman not having a deus ex machina to erase anything remotely resembling a struggle.

That's what complaints about the destruction boil down to. That this Superman wasn't in complete control of the situation from the get go. I remember some idiots actually complaining that him killing Zod was a choice he was _forced_ to make as opposed to something that was premeditated. Ditto Batman's brutality actually causing deaths rather than the movies pretending a lunatic who tosses knives and frag grenades everywhere just leaves people with a few bruises. Superhero fiction is pretty much sold on the myth of non-lethal violence. As if when you hit somebody on the back of the head a toggle appears on the screen giving you the choice of "kill" or "knockout".




> The creative forces  here wanted to not just show the carnage but delight in it.


There is nothing meant to be delightful about the destruction in Man of Steel. It's actually treated as a serious, life threatening event without triumphant music or unneeded quips. In most superhero films, the destruction is kept to the background or otherwise ignored as all that matters is that the hero beats the bad guy. Any potential deaths during the action are ignored unless plot critical (*cough* Civil War *cough*), and anyone put in danger exists just for a token "cat from a tree" rescue. Hell, during Man of Steel we see Perry, Steve and Jenny fighting to stay alive whereas the civilians are just helpless pions who can't save their own asses without some clowns in costumes coming to rescue them.




> It was practically the entire point of Man Of Steel. So yes, no matter how much backup Superman would have had, the carnage would still have happened because the writer was  really invested in having the carnage.


Any proof to actually back this up?




> And that, IMO, is just entirely the wrong attitude when making a mainstream  superhero movie about Superman.


Good thing that isn't what actually happened.

----------


## Agent Z

> You really shouldn't put superheroes in the real world.


Says who? The Captain America and Wonder Woman film makers seem to think otherwise


I would say the issue isn't that superheroes can't work in the real world but that writers love writing masturbatory stories in which real life people are measured by them without any self awareness of the consequence-free bubble superheroes occupy. Superman and Batman are easily the worst examples of this. So it's only fair when someone comes along to take the usual cushions away and show what people actually like these characters for, their powers or their heroism.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The point is that Superman doesn't need to be in a situation where he's set up to fail. That's the writing.


He didn't fail, he saved humanity from total extinction. 

Take out the big fight and MoS will kneel even on box office, SR has just proved it.




> Wonder Woman total budget was less than 150M and it had to share it with the period setting, costumes, the other action sequences etc. So it was understandable why the Ares battle looked like a Final Boss Fight from a late 90's video game.


The fight is understandable, the cast of Ares' real form sucks as hell.

----------


## Jokerz79

> What exactly is this argument even supposed to be? Yeah it happened the way it did because that's what the film makers wanted. So what? It isn't like just having it so nobody died in that fight would have been any less fictional. This argument only ever seems to come up when it comes to Superman not having a deus ex machina to erase anything remotely resembling a struggle.
> 
> That's what complaints about the destruction boil down to. That this Superman wasn't in complete control of the situation from the get go. I remember some idiots actually complaining that him killing Zod was a choice he was _forced_ to make as opposed to something that was premeditated. Ditto Batman's brutality actually causing deaths rather than the movies pretending a lunatic who tosses knives and frag grenades everywhere just leaves people with a few bruises. Superhero fiction is pretty much sold on the myth of non-lethal violence. As if when you hit somebody on the back of the head a toggle appears on the screen giving you the choice of "kill" or "knockout".
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing meant to be delightful about the destruction in Man of Steel. It's actually treated as a serious, life threatening event without triumphant music or unneeded quips. In most superhero films, the destruction is kept to the background or otherwise ignored as all that matters is that the hero beats the bad guy. Any potential deaths during the action are ignored unless plot critical (*cough* Civil War *cough*), and anyone put in danger exists just for a token "cat from a tree" rescue. Hell, during Man of Steel we see Perry, Steve and Jenny fighting to stay alive whereas the civilians are just helpless pions who can't save their own asses without some clowns in costumes coming to rescue them.
> 
> 
> ...


Dealing with the after effects of the Battle of New York let's see was it touched on before Civil War?

Well in the actual Avengers film during the public reaction montage you had people celebrating you know the beating an alien invasion but there was also questions of collateral damage in it too by citizens and politicians.

Iron Man 3 Tony was dealing with PTSD from it.

Tv shows Agents of Shield, Daredevil, and Jessica Jones all dealt with it.

The MCU didn't sweep the Battle of New York or any of the Avengers fights under the rug even Ant-Man mentioned Age of Ultron and how the Avengers might be busy dropping nations on people. 

I think the real issue wasn't Metropolis and Smallville and all the damage just it seemed Superman didn't try or try well to avoid it.  He seemed like the guy who stops the arsonist but trashes the business in the process.

----------


## Agent Z

> Dealing with the after effects of the Battle of New York let's see was it touched on before Civil War?
> 
> Well in the actual Avengers film during the public reaction montage you had people celebrating you know the beating an alien invasion but there was also questions of collateral damage in it too by citizens and politicians.
> 
> Iron Man 3 Tony was dealing with PTSD from it.
> 
> Tv shows Agents of Shield, Daredevil, and Jessica Jones all dealt with it.
> 
> The MCU didn't sweep the Battle of New York or any of the Avengers fights under the rug even Ant-Man mentioned Age of Ultron and how the Avengers might be busy dropping nations on people. 
> ...


Tony's PTSD is less about the destruction and more about his own near death experience. The tv shows didn't deal with the destruction, not in any real, meaningful way at least, just mentioned it a few times and largely ignored it. It's only real relevance was in Civil War and even that got waved off for Bucky drama. To say nothing of the lack of fucks given about Scarlet Witch trashing Johanessburg but I guess the writers realised they'd pretty much made her irredeemable with that. 

The fight in Metropolis or Smallville is not that different than your standard superhero fight just with more acknowledgement of people in danger. Look up "world of cardboard speech" on YouTube. The Avengers movie is more the exception than the rule of anything and people got a far more flattering view of how collateral damage is treated in superhero movies from that film. Not to mention I've yet to see anyone actually come up with a logical way for him to avoid it that doesn't rely on deus ex machina.

----------


## inisideguy

> Tony's PTSD is less about the destruction and more about his own near death experience. The tv shows didn't deal with the destruction, not in any real, meaningful way at least, just mentioned it a few times and largely ignored it. It's only real relevance was in Civil War and even that got waved off for Bucky drama. To say nothing of the lack of fucks given about Scarlet Witch trashing Johanessburg but I guess the writers realised they'd pretty much made her irredeemable with that. 
> 
> The fight in Metropolis or Smallville is not that different than your standard superhero fight just with more acknowledgement of people in danger. Look up "world of cardboard speech" on YouTube. The Avengers movie is more the exception than the rule of anything and people got a far more flattering view of how collateral damage is treated in superhero movies from that film. Not to mention I've yet to see anyone actually come up with a logical way for him to avoid it that doesn't rely on deus ex machina.


 I have said this before but its just this double standard Marvel people like to throw up. Marvel fans who actually read Captain America and Iron man comics in the 60 and 70s and 80s know that Cap nor Iron man never killed people casually like they do in their movies. Heck I was a huge marvel fan and read these books. Watch how many people cap kills in Winter Soldier.  He never did that in the comics. Iron man didn't just fly down and thermo tanks with soldiers in them. Marvel fans know this but they ignore it because well Marvel heroes don't have any lineage to say they are Boy Scouts or something. Except they actually do. So instead of ripping on the writers of their own films they flip over and complain about the morals of DC heroes to try and act like DC doesn't follow some unwritten code that they think needs to be followed on how the characters are supposed to act at all times.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The fight is understandable, the cast of Ares' real form sucks as hell.


When you compare the concept art to what was delivered, it's clear that the lack of budget proved to be a downer.

----------


## Outside_85

> Wonder Woman total budget was less than 150M and it had to share it with the period setting, costumes, the other action sequences etc. So it was understandable why the Ares battle looked like a Final Boss Fight from a late 90's video game.


And not because he has looked like that in comics for the past 30 years or so?

----------


## Confuzzled

> And not because he has looked like that in comics for the past 30 years or so?


Well he definitely did not look like David Thewlis in the comics.  :Big Grin:  Though I enjoyed Ares very much, including the final battle so the CGI is a moot point. As it must have been for most audiences which was why Wonder Woman did as well regardless.

----------


## Carabas

> Carnage is a bit strong since we didn't see a single human visibly hurt in Metropolis until BvS. (Unless you count Jenny and it was minor). If there's going to be urban destruction I'd rather they treat it as real and address it. It doesn't always have to be the way they executed it, but it's a pretty common theme in comics for society to fear or remain skeptical superheroes and question their actions.


Given the strong 9-11 references in the visuals, I'd say carnage is exactly the right word.

----------


## Carabas

> There is a difference between "let" and "not being able to prevent"


The writer has 100% control over what Superman is able to prevent.

----------


## Confuzzled

In retrospect, I can appreciate what Snyder and co. were aiming for with showcasing Superman as not all that invulnerable and being pretty fallible in MoS. But... I still think there were better ways to do so.

----------


## Outside_85

> Well he definitely did not look like David Thewlis in the comics.  Though I enjoyed Ares very much, including the final battle so the CGI is a moot point. As it must have been for most audiences which was why Wonder Woman did as well regardless.


Thats true. I just find the complaint about Ares looking poorly and it was due to budget constraints to be a strange one tbh. I mean, he did look like Perez's Ares once he armored up, but ofc he made that armor out of fragments that was lying around at the time.
David Thewlis however... I feel they took a page out of the Azzarello book with that one. You saw him younger and bigger when he was talking about Diana's origins, and then you moved up to the present where you could miss him in a crowd. Like Azzarello's War went from muscley warrior type to a dried up twig.




> Given the strong 9-11 references in the visuals, I'd say carnage is exactly the right word.


I have to wonder, is 9/11 really going to stop movies like this from realistically depicting what happens when a pair of god-like superbeings decide to have a punching match in a built up area? 




> The writer has 100% control over what Superman is able to prevent.


There is also a level you reach when it all becomes beyond the point of belief.
Yes, the writer has all that power. But Superman moving so fast he turns back time is still a stupid way of negating the death of Lois.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Tony's PTSD is less about the destruction and more about his own near death experience. The tv shows didn't deal with the destruction, not in any real, meaningful way at least, just mentioned it a few times and largely ignored it. It's only real relevance was in Civil War and even that got waved off for Bucky drama. To say nothing of the lack of fucks given about Scarlet Witch trashing Johanessburg but I guess the writers realised they'd pretty much made her irredeemable with that. 
> 
> The fight in Metropolis or Smallville is not that different than your standard superhero fight just with more acknowledgement of people in danger. Look up "world of cardboard speech" on YouTube. The Avengers movie is more the exception than the rule of anything and people got a far more flattering view of how collateral damage is treated in superhero movies from that film. Not to mention I've yet to see anyone actually come up with a logical way for him to avoid it that doesn't rely on deus ex machina.


A major plot point in DAREDEVIL, what facilitates Wilson Fisk's power in Manhattan- is the destruction of Midtown that occured in THE AVENGERS and the property market because of it (a stand in for ongoing gentrification).

----------


## manofsteel1979

It just seems to go back to the same damn argument from 4 Years ago, doesn't it? Which basically boils down to keeping Superman as a character and a concept forever locked in a box that was built for him in 1978. You can't do this with the character or do that type of story with the character or you can't show this aspect of him because that's just how it is and you can only do a certain type of story in a certain type of way or it isn't " muh Superman", meaning it's automatically trash. 

MOS wasn't conceived to be a " mainstream Superhero movie." No more than Nolan's Dark Knight movies were conceived to be standard mainstream Superhero movies.  The movie we got in 2013 wasn't sold as a conventional Superhero movie.It was meant to be a new approach from a different direction. Clearly there were those that ignored all the promotional material and went in expecting a fun little happy happy popcorn movie in the mould of Donner and when that wasn't what they got... some People  still can't quite get over it.

It's telling when most of the criticisms of MOS doesn't actually critique the movie in front of us ,but endless diatribes that it isn't the movie they wanted or expected or done in the style they prefer using some aspects of the character while ignoring others they prefer to ignore.

Honestly, I think Superman is the only Superhero character you see this mindset with. Frankly it's going to eventually lead to him becoming less and less relevant until he's reduced to a mascot like Mickey Mouse. When it gets to the point where his own fans rebel against any critical thinking with the character, then what's the point of continuing to try to tell new and different types of stories?

One of the things I enjoyed about it was it was at least trying something new in approach when it would have been so easy to just repeat the same formula we saw a trillion times. No it's not a perfect movie, but it had more balls than it had a right too, and it's unfortunate that it got bastardized into the launch pad of an extended universe, Because i would have liked to have seen an actual trilogy as Snyder intended originally Because I think it would have been the kick in the ass the franchise needed to open the character up and take him out of the box many of us have put him in.

----------


## Ishmael

> It just seems to go back to the same damn argument from 4 Years ago, doesn't it? Which basically boils down to keeping Superman as a character and a concept forever locked in a box that was built for him in 1978. You can't do this with the character or do that type of story with the character or you can't show this aspect of him because that's just how it is and you can only do a certain type of story in a certain type of way or it isn't " muh Superman", meaning it's automatically trash. 
> 
> MOS wasn't conceived to be a " mainstream Superhero movie." No more than Nolan's Dark Knight movies were conceived to be standard mainstream Superhero movies.  The movie we got in 2013 wasn't sold as a conventional Superhero movie.It was meant to be a new approach from a different direction. Clearly there were those that ignored all the promotional material and went in expecting a fun little happy happy popcorn movie in the mould of Donner and when that wasn't what they got... some People  still can't quite get over it.
> 
> It's telling when most of the criticisms of MOS doesn't actually critique the movie in front of us ,but diatribes that it isn't the movie they wanted or expected or done in the style they prefer using some aspects of the character while ignoring others they prefer to ignore.
> 
> Honestly, I think Superman is the only Superhero character you see this mindset with. Frankly it's going to eventually lead to him becoming less and less relevant until he's reduced to a mascot like Mickey Mouse. When it gets to the point where his own fans rebel against any critical thinking with the character, then what's the point of continuing to try to tell new and different types of stories?
> 
> One of the things I enjoyed about it was it was at least trying something new in approach when it would have been so easy to just repeat the same formula we saw a trillion times. No it's not a perfect movie, but it had more balls than it had a right too, and it's unfortunate that it got bastardized into the launch pad of an extended universe, Because i would have liked to have seen an actual trilogy as Snyder intended originally Because I think it would have been the kick in the ass the franchise needed to open the character up and take him out of the box many of us have put him in.


I agree with all of this.  I love Superman, and I really appreciated and enjoyed what Snyder was trying to do with MoS.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yeah I actually have only have a few issues with MoS. BvS is where Snyder really lost me.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> Though in "Superman: The Movie", Superman turning back time did get a lot of criticism.  That's the one big flaw in the movie that was otherwise well received.
> *So what works in the comic books isn't necessarily a good idea for a movie.*


That's the one big flaw in a movie I love as well, but I want to point out that this doesn't work in comics either for me. It establishes with an example that Superman can always reverse the effects of a big catastrophe and that takes away the sense of danger in future threats.




> There is also a level you reach when it all becomes beyond the point of belief.
> Yes, the writer has all that power. But Superman moving so fast he turns back time is still a stupid way of negating the death of Lois.


Which is why in the original ending the writer didn't have Lois die, and I would have prefered it that way. See, it was in the writer's and director's (it was actually Donner's decision) power what would happen, but once Lois died it was unacceptable that she would stay dead.

I think what several posters are arguing about is not that Superman wasn't ridiculously powerful in order to be more effective, but that he was put in a situation where he would have to be ridiculously powerful in order to be more effective.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

Weird that we're still having the MoS fight argument 4 years later. 

Given Snyder's affinity for Alan Moore, I'd be shocked if some of the scale and events of the Superman/Zod fight (after the destruction of the World Engine) wasn't inspired by the Miracleman/Kid Miracleman fight that ended Moore's run on that book. It's obviously far more restrained (understatement) than that was, but the main pieces are there.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It just seems to go back to the same damn argument from 4 Years ago, doesn't it? Which basically boils down to keeping Superman as a character and a concept forever locked in a box that was built for him in 1978. You can't do this with the character or do that type of story with the character or you can't show this aspect of him because that's just how it is and you can only do a certain type of story in a certain type of way or it isn't " muh Superman", meaning it's automatically trash. 
> 
> MOS wasn't conceived to be a " mainstream Superhero movie." No more than Nolan's Dark Knight movies were conceived to be standard mainstream Superhero movies.  The movie we got in 2013 wasn't sold as a conventional Superhero movie.It was meant to be a new approach from a different direction. Clearly there were those that ignored all the promotional material and went in expecting a fun little happy happy popcorn movie in the mould of Donner and when that wasn't what they got... some People  still can't quite get over it.
> 
> It's telling when most of the criticisms of MOS doesn't actually critique the movie in front of us ,but endless diatribes that it isn't the movie they wanted or expected or done in the style they prefer using some aspects of the character while ignoring others they prefer to ignore.
> 
> Honestly, I think Superman is the only Superhero character you see this mindset with. Frankly it's going to eventually lead to him becoming less and less relevant until he's reduced to a mascot like Mickey Mouse. When it gets to the point where his own fans rebel against any critical thinking with the character, then what's the point of continuing to try to tell new and different types of stories?
> 
> One of the things I enjoyed about it was it was at least trying something new in approach when it would have been so easy to just repeat the same formula we saw a trillion times. No it's not a perfect movie, but it had more balls than it had a right too, and it's unfortunate that it got bastardized into the launch pad of an extended universe, Because i would have liked to have seen an actual trilogy as Snyder intended originally Because I think it would have been the kick in the ass the franchise needed to open the character up and take him out of the box many of us have put him in.


Its not so much that people want a return to muh Superman. Reducing it to that is simply not true. But people do have a hard time connecting to a Clark who is so utterly closed off from humanity and hesitant to engage with anyone and ultimately views himself as a god among men. People cant relate to that. And the thing is: thats not even how Superman views himself in the comics nor does it even make a lot of sense because for all intents and purposes he was raised like a normal human. Even Pre-Crisis, Superman has human emotions and relationships and cared for people in his life like a normal guy would. In the DCEU, hes kinda just completely detached from people. Hes withdrawn. That, to a lot of people, doesnt exude the warmth and kindness and hope Superman is supposed to represent.

----------


## Agent Z

> Its not so much that people want a return to muh Superman. Reducing it to that is simply not true. But people do have a hard time connecting to a Clark who is so utterly closed off from humanity and hesitant to engage with anyone and ultimately views himself as a god among men. People cant relate to that. And the thing is: thats not even how Superman views himself in the comics nor does it even make a lot of sense because for all intents and purposes he was raised like a normal human. Even Pre-Crisis, Superman has human emotions and relationships and cared for people in his life like a normal guy would. In the DCEU, hes kinda just completely detached from people. Hes withdrawn. That, to a lot of people, doesnt exude the warmth and kindness and hope Superman is supposed to represent.


He doesn't view himself as a god and as for kindness? Helping a woman when she's being sexually harassed, saving people he doesn't know from an oil rig, the girl he reunited with her parents in Mexico and other instances show him being kind. He just doesn't have the luxury of living in a world where peoples are so accepting of aliens from outer space so that kind of bothers him as you can imagine

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> He doesn't view himself as a god and as for kindness? Helping a woman when she's being sexually harassed, saving people he doesn't know from an oil rig, the girl he reunited with her parents in Mexico and other instances show him being kind. He just doesn't have the luxury of living in a world where peoples are so accepting of aliens from outer space so that kind of bothers him as you can imagine


He says in MoS how he believes he was sent by his father to help humanity. That sure sounds patronizing to me. He also basically spent the majority of his life as a grifter and not forming any bonds with people. Pete Ross is supposed to be his best friend, but here he’s pretty much a stranger. Same thing with Lana Lang. The end when Lois says “welcome to the planet” was obviously meant as a “welcome to Earth.” Uh, Clark was raised on Earth. He’s supposed to be one of us. He doesn’t need to be welcomed to *his home*.

And I didn’t say he wasn’t a good person underneath, but he acts…like an alien who just literally stepped off his ship. Even in JL, he’s very standoffish and awkward when talking to people and seemingly unfamiliar with Earth humor. The only person he acts normally with is Lois, but he shouldn’t rely on her as the sole source of his humanity, even if she is the love of his life. I mean, again, Clark is supposed to be one of us. So why is he acting like he’s not? Or even if he views himself as an alien among humans, he should still be familiar enough with human social interaction to act like a human.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> It’s not so much that people want a return to “muh Superman.” Reducing it to that is simply not true. But people do have a hard time connecting to a Clark who is so utterly closed off from humanity and hesitant to engage with anyone and ultimately views himself as a god among men. People can’t relate to that. And the thing is: that’s not even how Superman views himself in the comics nor does it even make a lot of sense because for all intents and purposes he was raised like a normal human. Even Pre-Crisis, Superman has human emotions and relationships and cared for people in his life like a normal guy would. In the DCEU, he’s kinda just completely detached from people. He’s withdrawn. That, to a lot of people, doesn’t exude the warmth and kindness and hope Superman is supposed to represent.


It's one thing to bring up points about the characterization. I for one think Snyder didn't do a good enough job with showing the side of the character you are talking about. It IS there if you look hard enough, but I think Snyder took it for granted Everyone​ watching MOS and BvS especially knew that's who Superman is and people would automatically attribute those aspects of Classic Supes  to DCEU Supes. The thing is many people don't engage with the movie as much as Snyder assumed and entirely missed the glimpses of that part of Superman. That is a valid criticism I actually share. 

However, most of the last couple of pages of MOS discussion is not about Clark's characterization, but again boiling down to " you can't tell this type of story with Superman", or  " they shouldn't show his powers this way" or " Superman should never be put into a position where there is a no-win scenario, Because that's not Superman and he should always find a way where he doesn't have to make hard choices" etc. The arguments seem to go back to " this isn't the Superman I envision in my head! " And approach the whole discussion from that view point. 

When you start putting a character like Superman into a box and limit the parameters for what's an acceptable Superman story, you are slowly strangling him, IMO. I'd rather see new approaches rather than lather, rinse, repeat that many seem to want to see. 

I mean, if left up to some, he'd still be wearing blue suits as Clark and hiding his identity from Lois.

----------


## DieHard200904

> He says in MoS how he believes he was sent by his father to help humanity. That sure sounds patronizing to me. He also basically spent the majority of his life as a grifter and not forming any bonds with people. Pete Ross is supposed to be his best friend, but here he’s pretty much a stranger. Same thing with Lana Lang. The end when Lois says “welcome to the planet” was obviously meant as a “welcome to Earth.” Uh, Clark was raised on Earth. He’s supposed to be one of us. He doesn’t need to be welcomed to *his home*.
> 
> And I didn’t say he wasn’t a good person underneath, but he acts…like an alien who just literally stepped off his ship. Even in JL, he’s very standoffish and awkward when talking to people and seemingly unfamiliar with Earth humor. The only person he acts normally with is Lois, but he shouldn’t rely on her as the sole source of his humanity, even if she is the love of his life. I mean, again, Clark is supposed to be one of us. So why is he acting like he’s not? Or even if he views himself as an alien among humans, he should still be familiar enough with human social interaction to act like a human.


That's pretty much the problem I had with the whole thing.  Superman does interact with various people.  I see it as poor execution in the film itself.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Given the strong 9-11 references in the visuals, I'd say carnage is exactly the right word.


What does it have to be compared to 9/11? Pretty sure falling buildings would always look like that, and people would always react to that situation in those ways.

Did you think of 9/11 watching Superman vs Shazam in JLU? No, you didn't.

----------


## Agent Z

> He says in MoS how he believes he was sent by his father to help humanity. That sure sounds patronizing to me.


1) That is not the same thing as thinking himself a god.

2) He was basically repeating what both his fathers had told him at that point. How is it even remotely patronizing?




> He also basically spent the majority of his life as a grifter and not forming any bonds with people. Pete Ross is supposed to be his best friend, but here he’s pretty much a stranger. Same thing with Lana Lang. The end when Lois says “welcome to the planet” was obviously meant as a “welcome to Earth.” Uh, Clark was raised on Earth. He’s supposed to be one of us. He doesn’t need to be welcomed to *his home*.


Pete Ross hasn't been an important character since pre crisis. He and Lana were friends as kids and then grew apart when they were adults which is pretty common. Either way, none of this precludes him being kind.





> And I didn’t say he wasn’t a good person underneath


Is that why you accused him of thinking himself a god and called him patronizing? 




> but he acts…like an alien who just literally stepped off his ship.


When you spend a lot of your life being treated like a freak I can't imagine you'd be so outgoing.





> Even in JL, he’s very standoffish and awkward when talking to people and seemingly unfamiliar with Earth humor.


I'd imagine having just come back to life and being surrounded by people who are complete strangers to you might be rather overwhelming.




> The only person he acts normally with is Lois, but he shouldn’t rely on her as the sole source of his humanity, even if she is the love of his life. I mean, again, Clark is supposed to be one of us. So why is he acting like he’s not? Or even if he views himself as an alien among humans, he should still be familiar enough with human social interaction to act like a human.


I've seen people who aren't all that different from Clark. Not acting like a Looney Tune on sugar rush is not the same thing as being inhuman. He was able to pass as normal enough to get jobs and not draw too much unwanted attention. He's actually less of a weirdo than most versions of Clark who come across as mockeries of humans.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> In retrospect, I can appreciate what Snyder and co. were aiming for with showcasing Superman as not all that invulnerable and being pretty fallible in MoS. But... I still think there were better ways to do so.


Not really.

I was honestly hoping to see Zod kill more people on screen. Like he'd toss Supes across the city, and, rather than follow up, he's then turn to heat vision civilians. Or he'd try to toss Supes into a crowd of people, Supes would stop himself for hitting them, and then Zod would unleash a massive heat blast, blasting back Supes, and killing everyone he'd just saved.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> When you compare the concept art to what was delivered, it's clear that the lack of budget proved to be a downer.


No, the cast, Ares is extremely handsome and strong, and they picked Lupin not just to play his disguise, but true form?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> A major plot point in DAREDEVIL, what facilitates Wilson Fisk's power in Manhattan- is the destruction of Midtown that occured in THE AVENGERS and the property market because of it (a stand in for ongoing gentrification).


So...something that's not the movies, but something most casual audiences see as unrelated. Imagine that...

----------


## Jokerz79

> It's one thing to bring up points about the characterization. I for one think Snyder didn't do a good enough job with showing the side of the character you are talking about. It IS there if you look hard enough, but I think Snyder took it for granted Everyone​ watching MOS and BvS especially knew that's who Superman is and people would automatically attribute those aspects of Classic Supes  to DCEU Supes. The thing is many people don't engage with the movie as much as Snyder assumed and entirely missed the glimpses of that part of Superman. That is a valid criticism I actually share. 
> 
> However, most of the last couple of pages of MOS discussion is not about Clark's characterization, but again boiling down to " you can't tell this type of story with Superman", or  " they shouldn't show his powers this way" or " Superman should never be put into a position where there is a no-win scenario, Because that's not Superman and he should always find a way where he doesn't have to make hard choices" etc. The arguments seem to go back to " this isn't the Superman I envision in my head! " And approach the whole discussion from that view point. 
> 
> When you start putting a character like Superman into a box and limit the parameters for what's an acceptable Superman story, you are slowly strangling him, IMO. I'd rather see new approaches rather than lather, rinse, repeat that many seem to want to see. 
> 
> I mean, if left up to some, he'd still be wearing blue suits as Clark and hiding his identity from Lois.


Except Snyder didn't do anything new with the character every element he explored was already done.

His villains Zod, Luthor, and a Luthor Kryptonian hybrid. Well CR had all of those in his films Superman, Superman II, and Superman IV.

Zod leading a coup on Krypton? Already done. Superman 78 and II

Superman unsure of his origins, powers, and place in the world as a youth? Already done Superman 78.

Zod and crew attacking a Midwest town and Metropolis? Already done Superman II.

Superman killing Zod? Already done Superman II.

Immigrant story? Already done in the most human way possible in Superman 78 and II. His drive to not to stand out as a teen in Superman 78 and in Superman II Clark was willing to give up everything including his culture and heritage to assimilate and be with the woman he loves which many immigrants have done when converting to a new society. 

Superman doubting himself after the press start turning on him? Already done Superman IV (Boy he took more Q's from Quest for Peace than I'd would had liked especially with his Lex being more Lenny than any previous Lex.).

What was new?  Well for a film series constantly talking about Hope it seemed like his and the world's optimism was gone. Under Snyder he always looked burdened and I know it was there but you have to "look for it" well if you have too look for it than they failed at representing it. 

Superman has been around for nearly 80 years he's had a radio show, serials, 4 television shows, 5 films, and various animated shows and films before Snyder. Fact is people have expectations of the character because of decades of how he was portrayed. Now you can simplify it to "Not Muh Superman" mentality but truth is that mentality comes from a place of love the love fans have for this iconic character and yes they take offense when they think he is being represented wrong.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That's the one big flaw in a movie I love as well, but I want to point out that this doesn't work in comics either for me. It establishes with an example that Superman can always reverse the effects of a big catastrophe and that takes away the sense of danger in future threats.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why in the original ending the writer didn't have Lois die, and I would have prefered it that way. See, it was in the writer's and director's (it was actually Donner's decision) power what would happen, but once Lois died it was unacceptable that she would stay dead.
> 
> I think what several posters are arguing about is not that Superman wasn't ridiculously powerful in order to be more effective, but that he was put in a situation where he would have to be ridiculously powerful in order to be more effective.


It's not like this was a seasoned Supes. It was equivalent to an NBA rookie's first few games. Oh, and in those games you have to defend LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Kobe Bryant.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Weird that we're still having the MoS fight argument 4 years later. 
> 
> Given Snyder's affinity for Alan Moore, I'd be shocked if some of the scale and events of the Superman/Zod fight (after the destruction of the World Engine) wasn't inspired by the Miracleman/Kid Miracleman fight that ended Moore's run on that book. It's obviously far more restrained (understatement) than that was, but the main pieces are there.


Yeah, I saw MoS as Snyder's homage to Miracleman.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Except Snyder didn't do anything new with the character every element he explored was already done.
> 
> His villains Zod, Luthor, and a Luthor Kryptonian hybrid. Well CR had all of those in his films Superman, Superman II, and Superman IV.
> 
> Zod leading a coup on Krypton? Already done. Superman 78 and II
> 
> Superman unsure of his origins, powers, and place in the world as a youth? Already done Superman 78.
> 
> Zod and crew attacking a Midwest town and Metropolis? Already done Superman II.
> ...


It's clear that the "new" aspect to Superman in MoS is how these events are all depicted.

You're right. Nothing in here is new, so why did it get the reaction in did?

It's because of how it was depicted. Grounding the scenarios in the movie took all the fantasy out of it. 

For instance, seeing Martha calm down Clark, after his powers went haywire, looked similar to a mom calming down her autistic son, whom is having a panic attack, via sensory overload.

Clark saving that bus full of kids got the same reaction from Jonathan that I got from my parents when they found out that I got in trouble in school defending someone else from getting beat up: "Why did you get involved in the first place?! What if you got hurt?!" I didn't get in trouble, but they were briefly overconcerned.

A lot of the "problems" with MoS all stems from the grounding of it. Not all of its problems are that, seeing as it's an 8-8.5/10 to me, but that's what most of the complaining is.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

For some reason, I think of MOS as the Saiyan Saga.

I think Snyder would do a crazy DBZ film.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> For some reason, I think of MOS as the Saiyan Saga.
> 
> I think Snyder would do a crazy DBZ film.


You know DBZ's story was partly inspired by Superman right?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> 1) That is not the same thing as thinking himself a god.
> 
> 2) He was basically repeating what both his fathers had told him at that point. How is it even remotely patronizing?


Other than the fact that it signals that he thinks of humanity as these poor savages that "need" help and that he has some sort of "duty" despite him not actually wanting to. Superman should help people because he wants to, not because he feels like its some sort of homework assignment his dad passed onto him.




> Pete Ross hasn't been an important character since pre crisis. He and Lana were friends as kids and then grew apart when they were adults which is pretty common. Either way, none of this precludes him being kind.


Not since Pre-Crisis?




That last image also is important because it shows them being friends *as adults*. Heck, even currently, Lana always seems to flock to Clark whenever she needs something.

And, yes, while it doesn't preclude him being kind, his lack of meaningful friendships doesn't help to humanize him, either.




> Is that why you accused him of thinking himself a god and called him patronizing?


You can be a kind god. But, even so, that doesn't mean you're relatable. In fact, viewing yourself as a god would mean you're unrelatable.




> When you spend a lot of your life being treated like a freak I can't imagine you'd be so outgoing.


Who treated him like a freak? He was picked on in school, but then again, a lot of people are. Nobody even knew he was an alien. The only person who treated him like a freak who needed to hide who he was is his father.




> I'd imagine having just come back to life and being surrounded by people who are complete strangers to you might be rather overwhelming.


Not talking about that. Talking about his seeming inability to grasp human speak or gestures.




> I've seen people who aren't all that different from Clark. Not acting like a Looney Tune on sugar rush is not the same thing as being inhuman. He was able to pass as normal enough to get jobs and not draw too much unwanted attention. He's actually less of a weirdo than most versions of Clark who come across as mockeries of humans.


Not saying he needs to act like a Looney Tune on sugar rush. Just saying he's a guy who should, you know, actually display some human characteristics, since he grew up on Earth. In BvS, when faced with the deaths of dozens of people after the bombing of the Capitol, instead of sticking around, trying to help the victims, look for any survivors, etc., he just...flies away and doesn't talk to anybody.

I'm sorry, but that is *not* Superman. That's not what Superman would do.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That's pretty much the problem I had with the whole thing.  Superman does interact with various people.  I see it as poor execution in the film itself.


Those last few scenes in MoS, post neck snap, are the worst scenes in the movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

How about this Clark knows he's got god-like power, and he feels like an outsider. 

This is not a foreign concept: a story about a character that just feels like they, for some reason, don't feel like they belong. 

It's really that simple. This version doesn't have friends because he wants to stay innocuous, because, in this case, he doesn't want to cause potential problems, or get too attached, do to his gifts.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Not saying he needs to act like a Looney Tune on sugar rush. Just saying he's a guy who should, you know, actually display some human characteristics, since he grew up on Earth. In BvS, when faced with the deaths of dozens of people after the bombing of the Capitol, instead of sticking around, trying to help the victims, look for any survivors, etc., he just...flies away and doesn't talk to anybody.
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is *not* Superman. That's not what Superman would do.


He is very human in MoS, the problem is not Superman, but the story chose to focus on how did the world fear or hate Superman and the aftermath of the battle. I mean, so many people fear and distrust him but he never thinks about revenge, he was still trying to talk to Batman even after the heavy weapons are on. How is it not a saint? 99% of the people could not be that nice.

BVS does suck at the court scene, I admit.

----------


## Buried Alien

> How about this Clark knows he's got god-like power, and he feels like an outsider. 
> 
> This is not a foreign concept: a story about a character that just feels like they, for some reason, don't feel like they belong. 
> 
> It's really that simple. This version doesn't have friends because he wants to stay innocuous, because, in this case, he doesn't want to cause potential problems, or get too attached, do to his gifts.


I've long wondered: if Clark feels a bit alienated from those who are merely ordinary humans, why isn't he closer (beyond a mere colleague level) with his fellow superheroes...Diana, Barry, Arthur, J'Onn, etc., who can to some extent relate to his predicament?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Agent Z

> Other than the fact that it signals that he thinks of humanity as these poor savages that "need" help and that he has some sort of "duty" despite him not actually wanting to. Superman should help people because he wants to, not because he feels like its some sort of homework assignment his dad passed onto him.


He_was_ because he wanted to. We saw him doing that since he was a kid. He wa simply stating why he thought he was on Earth. It was Jor El that thought of Clark as a god. Clark did not see himself that way and in fact hated being treated as anything else but a normal person.





> Not since Pre-Crisis?


I’m sorry what do these prove? The first one is just a generic list of people he knew as a kid and the second one is one of Pete’s few appearances in the Superman titles since Crisis on Infinite Earths. Clark never saw fit to tell Pete his secret and Pete had to find out about it from Lex Luthor (who had that knowledge wiped from his memories by Manchester Black). Lana maintained some level of relevancy as a rival for Lois over Clark’s affections but Pete Ross has been a footnote in the Superman mythos for decades and that’s being modest.



> That last image also is important because it shows them being friends *as adults*.


Such close friends that Clark was still lying to him even in adulthood.




> You can be a kind god. But, even so, that doesn't mean you're relatable. In fact, viewing yourself as a god would mean you're unrelatable.


Again, he doesn’t view himself as a god. Nor does he want to be viewed as one.




> Who treated him like a freak? He was picked on in school, but then again, a lot of people are.


Tell me, do you at all remember what the source of that bullying was?





> Not talking about that. Talking about his seeming inability to grasp human speak or gestures.


I have no idea what you’re even talking about with this.




> Not saying he needs to act like a Looney Tune on sugar rush. Just saying he's a guy who should, you know, actually display some human characteristics, since he grew up on Earth. In BvS, when faced with the deaths of dozens of people after the bombing of the Capitol, instead of sticking around, trying to help the victims, look for any survivors, etc., he just...flies away and doesn't talk to anybody.
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is *not* Superman. That's not what Superman would do.


And we’re back once again to the, “not muh Superman” b.s. Look, if you’re going to insist that Superman be humanised, you’re going to have to accept that he’s going to display characteristics you don’t approve of. Like fleeing the scene of a disaster that killed dozens of people while feeling guilty over not being able to stop it. Not everybody can just turn off their emotions to be the good Samaritan. You seem to confuse being in ideal circumstances with being an ideal person.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> You know DBZ's story was partly inspired by Superman right?


Yes, indeed.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I've long wondered: if Clark feels a bit alienated from those who are merely ordinary humans, why isn't he closer (beyond a mere colleague level) with his fellow superheroes...Diana, Barry, Arthur, J'Onn, etc., who can to some extent relate to his predicament?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Well, depending on the writer he is.

Also, he was in a relationship with Diana...until the Nostalgia Police showed up.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yes, indeed.


And DBZ had better fighting than nearly all the superhero comics. MoS was able to show such epic fight on big screen, that was a huge success.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> I've long wondered: if Clark feels a bit alienated from those who are merely ordinary humans, why isn't he closer (beyond a mere colleague level) with his fellow superheroes...Diana, Barry, Arthur, J'Onn, etc., who can to some extent relate to his predicament?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


This is partly why I love the Legion. Having teen friends of different planetary origins (and personalities), in my mind, helped do away with the whole outsider thing.

If the Legion history is kept, Kal should be a pretty well-adjusted fellow by the JLA forms, imo.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> And DBZ had better fighting than nearly all the superhero comics. MoS was able to show such epic fight on big screen, that was a huge success.


To be fair, in general, manga, and anime, are more dynamic than their western contemporaries. Panel layout is what comics do better, as well as color work.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I don't understand why would ppl think Superman is not good enough.

So many mistrust, fear and hate were thrown at him but he never bothered to fight back. He even fought his own people to save humanity. Batman was the "bad guy" in BVS and he was still trying to reason with Batman otherwise Bruce would have been dead in secs.





> To be fair, in general, manga, and anime, are more dynamic than their western contemporaries. Panel layout is what comics do better, as well as color work.


Yes, and DBZ probably has the most dynamic physical fight in all the manga.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't understand why would ppl think Superman is not good enough.
> 
> So many mistrust, fear and hate were thrown at him but he never bothered to fight back. He even fought his own people to save humanity. Batman was the "bad guy" in BVS and he was still trying to reason with Batman otherwise Bruce would have been dead in secs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and DBZ probably has the most dynamic physical fight in all the manga.


I would say it's one of the most dynamic (not the most, because there's better artists), but yeah.

----------


## manofsteel1979

I enjoy seeing the goal posts constantly being moved here. First it's " omg! He murdered Zod! He didn't do enough to help people in the fight! Man of Murder!" ...Then after the rebuttal that pokes holes in that, we move toward..." Umm.. He's depicted as too powerful. Superman and Zod are over powered!" Then the rebuttal...

" Umm... Er...We shouldn't show the full scale of Superman's powers in a Superman movie! There shouldn't be that much destruction!" ...

Rebuttal...

" Umm...He didn't interact with Pete and Lana enough! Yeah, that's it!"( Even though he's barely interacted with either in live action  even in the Donner films...But still...)

I mean... It's probably just easier to admit that it does ultimately come back to " it's not my Superman and it's not how I'd do a Superman movie and I don't like it".

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Yeah I actually have only have a few issues with MoS. BvS is where Snyder really lost me.


Likewise. MoS has a lot that works, and a lot that doesn't. It's a solid flick that I enjoyed the hell out of. BvS is where it flew off the rails and JL is the oncoming train it collided into.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't understand why would ppl think Superman is not good enough.


They built a giant statue of him in the middle of Metropolis. We saw people actively supporting him on news broadcasts and at the Capitol building when he was going to appear before that hearing. We saw people all over the world putting their faith in him to save them from trouble and showing him full gratitude and pretty much worship when he intervened in their lives. 

It's pretty clear that plenty of people DID think he was plenty good enough. The people who were against him honestly seemed like the minority opinion in BvS. 




> So many mistrust, fear and hate were thrown at him but he never bothered to fight back. He even fought his own people to save humanity. Batman was the "bad guy" in BVS and he was still trying to reason with Batman otherwise Bruce would have been dead in secs.


It wasn't that much mistrust or hate. He was literally about to appear before a hearing in which he WOULD have fought back against his detractors. Problem was that Lex saw to it he didn't get the chance to speak. 

The only strong critics Superman had were Lex, Bruce, and Senator Finch. Senator Finch came around and was going to support him mere minutes before her death. Bruce realized his mistake before the movie was over as well. Only Lex started the movie a hater and ended it a hater.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> They built a giant statue of him in the middle of Metropolis. We saw people actively supporting him on news broadcasts and at the Capitol building when he was going to appear before that hearing. We saw people all over the world putting their faith in him to save them from trouble and showing him full gratitude and pretty much worship when he intervened in their lives. 
> 
> It's pretty clear that plenty of people DID think he was plenty good enough. The people who were against him honestly seemed like the minority opinion in BvS. 
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't that much mistrust or hate. He was literally about to appear before a hearing in which he WOULD have fought back against his detractors. Problem was that Lex saw to it he didn't get the chance to speak. 
> 
> The only strong critics Superman had were Lex, Bruce, and Senator Finch. Senator Finch came around and was going to support him mere minutes before her death. Bruce realized his mistake before the movie was over as well. Only Lex started the movie a hater and ended it a hater.


The "fighting back" wasn't something like that, I mean something like Magneto's reaction. Superman never hate any of those ppl.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I enjoy seeing the goal posts constantly being moved here. First it's " omg! He murdered Zod! He didn't do enough to help people in the fight! Man of Murder!" ...Then after the rebuttal that pokes holes in that, we move toward..." Umm.. He's depicted as too powerful. Superman and Zod are over powered!" Then the rebuttal...
> 
> " Umm... Er...We shouldn't show the full scale of Superman's powers in a Superman movie! There shouldn't be that much destruction!" ...
> 
> Rebuttal...
> 
> " Umm...He didn't interact with Pete and Lana enough! Yeah, that's it!"( Even though he's barely interacted with either in live action  even in the Donner films...But still...)
> 
> I mean... It's probably just easier to admit that it does ultimately come back to " it's not my Superman and it's not how I'd do a Superman movie and I don't like it".


So basically, they need to make sure they don't squander Shazam. Because he's got no history in the mainstream, they can experiment with him in ways they can't with Superman. 

I also think this means no Superman movies for awhile. He'll likely be regulated to co-starring in other solos, and ensemble movies.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> The "fighting back" wasn't something like that, I mean something like Magneto's reaction. Superman never hate any of those.


Superman wouldn't fight back against his critics with violence. Why would he? They're attacking him with words. Why should he retaliate with punches and heat vision blasts?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Superman wouldn't fight back against his critics with violence. Why would he? They're attacking him with words. Why should he retaliate with punches and heat vision blasts?


Batman was trying to kill him, Superman could kill him with perfect self defense but still chose to reason with him.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> He_was_ because he wanted to. We saw him doing that since he was a kid. He wa simply stating why he thought he was on Earth. It was Jor El that thought of Clark as a god. Clark did not see himself that way and in fact hated being treated as anything else but a normal person.


Even if its what the director intended, its not how it came off. His shutting himself off from the world, coupled with his lack of any meaningful relationships outside of his mother and Lois, makes him come off as cold and distant. The fact that Jonathan Kent expressed doubt that Clark should use his powers to help people rubbed off on Clark and made *him* doubt that he should help people. Those things are diametrically opposed to Superman's character. He should have a strong sense of what is right.




> I’m sorry what do these prove?


That Pete Ross is a continual part of Superman's mythology, which continued well into Post-Crisis. Hell, he was even the VP of the Luthor Administration and on several occasions, Clark referred to him as his friend and even when Pete was mad at him for not telling him his secret, he still calls Clark his "best friend." Albeit it was out of anger because Clark didn't tell him, but its still a sign that, yes they are best friends. I don't know how that could be any more obvious.

And friends and humanizing relationships is exactly what DCEU Clark has lacked.




> Clark never saw fit to tell Pete his secret and Pete had to find out about it from Lex Luthor (who had that knowledge wiped from his memories by Manchester Black).
> 
> Such close friends that Clark was still lying to him even in adulthood.


In most incarnations, and I think even currently, neither Jimmy nor Perry know that Clark is Superman either. Does that make Clark's relationship with those characters any less special? Perry is even currently the godfather of Lois and Clark's son.




> Again, he doesn’t view himself as a god. Nor does he want to be viewed as one.


But he doesn't quite view himself as human or even at home on Earth, now does he.




> Tell me, do you at all remember what the source of that bullying was?


If you're asking whether or not the kids were bullying him because they thought he was an alien, well no, they weren't. They called him a freak. But again, a lot of kids who aren't actually freaks are called that by bullies on a daily basis. They still turn out fine.




> I have no idea what you’re even talking about with this.


Again, that he seems utterly uncomfortable around people. The Superman from the comics would be the guy who reaches out and tries to connect. Not the guy who needs Batman to bring him into the group. If anything, that dynamic is reversed.




> And we’re back once again to the, “not muh Superman” b.s. Look, if you’re going to insist that Superman be humanised, you’re going to have to accept that he’s going to display characteristics you don’t approve of. Like fleeing the scene of a disaster that killed dozens of people while feeling guilty over not being able to stop it. Not everybody can just turn off their emotions to be the good Samaritan. You seem to confuse being in ideal circumstances with being an ideal person.


That scene is not at all humanizing. Its not "humanizing" to run away from a problem, especially in face of people having been hurt because someone was after *you*. Its either (1) cowardly or (2) a sign he doesn't really care all that much about those people. If he did, he'd try to help.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It's one thing to bring up points about the characterization. I for one think Snyder didn't do a good enough job with showing the side of the character you are talking about. It IS there if you look hard enough, but I think Snyder took it for granted Everyone​ watching MOS and BvS especially knew that's who Superman is and people would automatically attribute those aspects of Classic Supes  to DCEU Supes. The thing is many people don't engage with the movie as much as Snyder assumed and entirely missed the glimpses of that part of Superman. That is a valid criticism I actually share.


Why should people have to look hard for something that should have been made obvious in the movie?  It wasn't a murder mystery where people had to look for clues as to who he was supposed to be.




> I mean... It's probably just easier to admit that it does ultimately come back to " it's not my Superman and it's not how I'd do a Superman movie and I don't like it".


That's probably why Superman was so well received on the Supergirl TV show. At least the first two episodes anyway.  "That's my Superman, that's how Superman should be done, I love that."

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Batman was trying to kill him, Superman could kill him with perfect self defense but still chose to reason with him.


Superman chose to reason with him because he needed his help. He wanted to show Batman that he was wrong about him as well. Crushing him with his godlike power would NOT make Batman very eager to hear him out and trust him.

He also didn't know Batman COULD kill him until Batman brought the Kryptonite into play. Once that happened, Superman lost the ability to crush Batman easily and he was completely on defense.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Superman chose to reason with him because he needed his help. He wanted to show Batman that he was wrong about him as well. Crushing him with his godlike power would NOT make Batman very eager to hear him out and trust him.
> 
> He also didn't know Batman COULD kill him until Batman brought the Kryptonite into play. Once that happened, Superman lost the ability to crush Batman easily and he was completely on defense.


Not likely, Superman could use the superhear and superspeed to easily find Martha.

It doesn't matter, attempting to kill someone is enough to trigger self defense.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Not likely, Superman could use the superhear and superspeed to easily find Martha.


And if Lex had Martha locked in a lead-lined soundproof cell somewhere in Siberia? Could Clark still find her then? He had no idea where to even START looking and he had no sure way to find her using his own abilities. 




> It doesn't matter, attempting to kill someone is enough to trigger self defense.


When it's two humans? Sure. When it's one human versus a godlike alien who can laugh at EVERY weapon in the human's arsenal? Nope. Much harder for Superman to make a legitimate case for self defense. Criminals shoot bullets at him all the time. Technically, they ARE trying to kill him. However? He (and everyone else) knows that bullets are no threat to him. If he kills a bunch of gun-toting thugs because they tried to kill him with weapons that cannot harm him, that's not self defense. His life is not in danger.

By the time Superman knew his life was in danger, you'll notice that he DID stop trying to reason with Batman? Once the Kryptonite came into play, he DID start focusing on defending himself. He couldn't do it because Batman's more skilled than he is and he was in constant pain from the Kryptonite in his bloodstream. That brief moment when his powers came back? You'll notice he didn't try to talk then? He blasted Batman through the floor of a building and was only interested in stopping him from hitting him with that green stuff again. Batman only won because he got another gas grenade off at him.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> Only Lex started the movie a hater and ended it a hater.


I love that line. That pretty much sums up Lex.

----------


## WhichDrWhowins

it laughable, I think it ranks 40th or 39th against other comicbook movies? 52nd against other scifi/fantasy, 89th against other blockbusters

The competition does not exist
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...nsbvslaugh.gif

imagine telling someone 3 years back Justice League would be owned by the third Thor, Men in Black, Suicide Squad, Big Hero 6, Deadpool, Guardians of the Galaxy etc





> Posted this a couple pages back but it does a good job of explaining why JL is failing at the box office.


Anyways there is no contest vs Marvel and the DCU .... Wonder Woman was something different but the overall pattern they need to re-assess, go back to basics, reform and they can compete against whatever bla scifi Fantasy Universal, Fox, even foreign movies etc are churning out

they could always use some Flash timeline alt reality time jump thing to relaunch the universe

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> it laughable, I think it ranks 40th or 39th against other comicbook movies? 52nd against other scifi/fantasy, 89th against other blockbusters
> 
> The competition does not exist
> https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...nsbvslaugh.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways there is no contest vs Marvel and the DCU .... Wonder Woman was something different but the overall pattern they need to re-assess, go back to basics, reform and they can compete against whatever bla scifi Fantasy Universal, Fox, even foreign movies etc are churning out
> ...


I still think they can compete. I will say this about Justice League. It is a sign that they are on the right track at least. It’s not a good movie. But, it’s better than both BvS and Suicide Squd by a lot. The plot is actually, discernible, even if it’s not a good plot.

----------


## Bossace

Things could be worse, look at Universal’s Dark Universe

----------


## Soubhagya

> it laughable, I think it ranks 40th or 39th against other comicbook movies? 52nd against other scifi/fantasy, 89th against other blockbusters
> 
> The competition does not exist
> https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...nsbvslaugh.gif
> 
> imagine telling someone 3 years back Justice League would be owned by the third Thor, Men in Black, Suicide Squad, Big Hero 6, Deadpool, Guardians of the Galaxy etc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol!  The gif is funny. It sums up the situation really well. Cap is laughing at Supes. Rather Supes should laugh at Cap. Marvel didn't have all the good characters. DC had all of them. 

A lot of fans including me have stressed solo films earlier. But what if they started with Justice League? That would have been cool. Depending on reception they could then give each of them their solo films. Just get a solid Justice League film and it could have worked. Batman v Superman earned 166 million opening. JL could have got similar numbers when DCEU did not sour people's opinion after BvS. Remember MoS is divisive among fans and critics but was not hated by the audiences. A- Cinemascore is good. And its legs were not bad. GoTG showed you can have a team film by introducing all characters and it can still work. 

I don't think Flashpoint is a good idea to relaunch the universe. In comics we can have such continuity cleaning events because they are books. But a  whole film just to relaunch is costly and risky. I would say just relaunch it. No need for a separate film to say that look we are relaunching. Future Past is one of the best and beloved X-Men stories. Flashpoint not so much. One needs good films whose priority is to be a good film. Not something whose purpose is different. It did not work with BvS.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Why should people have to look hard for something that should have been made obvious in the movie?  It wasn't a murder mystery where people had to look for clues as to who he was supposed to be.
> 
> 
> 
> That's probably why Superman was so well received on the Supergirl TV show. At least the first two episodes anyway.  "That's my Superman, that's how Superman should be done, I love that."


Until the season finale and then suddenly people were bitching about that version because Kara kicked his butt .

I enjoyed the take on Superman there as well mainly because it tickled my nostalgia pangs . My point is we shouldn't be married to only one take forever. Both versions are valid and are genuine versions of Superman.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Even if its what the director intended, its not how it came off. His shutting himself off from the world, coupled with his lack of any meaningful relationships outside of his mother and Lois, makes him come off as cold and distant. The fact that Jonathan Kent expressed doubt that Clark should use his powers to help people rubbed off on Clark and made *him* doubt that he should help people. Those things are diametrically opposed to Superman's character. He should have a strong sense of what is right.
> 
> 
> 
> That Pete Ross is a continual part of Superman's mythology, which continued well into Post-Crisis. Hell, he was even the VP of the Luthor Administration and on several occasions, Clark referred to him as his friend and even when Pete was mad at him for not telling him his secret, he still calls Clark his "best friend." Albeit it was out of anger because Clark didn't tell him, but its still a sign that, yes they are best friends. I don't know how that could be any more obvious.
> 
> And friends and humanizing relationships is exactly what DCEU Clark has lacked.
> 
> 
> ...


But he DID help. It's right there in the Ultimate Cut. He only leaves after he gets the last person out and the EMTs make it clear he really isn't wanted.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> But he DID help. It's right there in the Ultimate Cut. He only leaves after he gets the last person out and the EMTs make it clear he really isn't wanted.


We didn't get the ultimate cut in theaters. And most people didn't even think to watch it after what we did get. The theatrical edition, what most people saw, has him just flying away.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> And if Lex had Martha locked in a lead-lined soundproof cell somewhere in Siberia? Could Clark still find her then? He had no idea where to even START looking and he had no sure way to find her using his own abilities.


It doesn't matter, Superman has the strength and speed to search quickly enough. He even got Lex on his hand, heat vision and all kinds of torture on the way if he doesn't speak.

He could find and rescue Lois in secs, why are you questioning his ability?





> When it's two humans? Sure. When it's one human versus a godlike alien who can laugh at EVERY weapon in the human's arsenal? Nope. Much harder for Superman to make a legitimate case for self defense. Criminals shoot bullets at him all the time. Technically, they ARE trying to kill him. However? He (and everyone else) knows that bullets are no threat to him. If he kills a bunch of gun-toting thugs because they tried to kill him with weapons that cannot harm him, that's not self defense. His life is not in danger.
> 
> By the time Superman knew his life was in danger, you'll notice that he DID stop trying to reason with Batman? Once the Kryptonite came into play, he DID start focusing on defending himself. He couldn't do it because Batman's more skilled than he is and he was in constant pain from the Kryptonite in his bloodstream. That brief moment when his powers came back? You'll notice he didn't try to talk then? He blasted Batman through the floor of a building and was only interested in stopping him from hitting him with that green stuff again. Batman only won because he got another gas grenade off at him.


Nope, Superman has human right on earth. Attempting to kill someone, whether it would work or not triggers self defense and Batman will 100% lose this case. It doesn't matter that CAN it work or not, but DOES he think it will work and DOES he want to kill. That's how the court decide the case. Superman will 100% win it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It doesn't matter, Superman has the strength and speed to search quickly enough. He even got Lex on his hand, heat vision and all kinds of torture on the way if he doesn't speak.
> 
> He could find and rescue Lois in secs, why are you questioning his ability?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Superman has human right on earth. Attempting to kill someone, whether it would work or not triggers self defense and Batman will 100% lose this case. It doesn't matter that CAN it work or not, but DOES he think it will work and DOES he want to kill. That's how the court decide the case. Superman will 100% win it.


The whole point of the scene is that Martha is being held captive, if Batman's head isn't delivered in 1 hour she gets barbequed, and not even Lex knows where she is being held. That was the entire reason Superman went to Gotham - he was NOT able to find her on his own, or else he would have. He needed to speak with Batman and formulate a plan, or else his mother would die. 

Of course, Batman had other ideas. Your assertion that Superman "could just find her" does not hold weight in the context of the film, and neither Vanguard-01 or anyone else is "doubting his ability."

----------


## Slowpokeking

> The whole point of the scene is that Martha is being held captive, if Batman's head isn't delivered in 1 hour she gets barbequed, and not even Lex knows where she is being held. That was the entire reason Superman went to Gotham - he was NOT able to find her on his own, or else he would have. He needed to speak with Batman and formulate a plan, or else his mother would die. 
> 
> Of course, Batman had other ideas. Your assertion that Superman "could just find her" does not hold weight in the context of the film, and neither Vanguard-01 or anyone else is "doubting his ability."


Why? He got the speed of Flash, uber strength, super sight and hear ability, why couldn't he find Martha in 1 hour? It could work like Quick Silver in X-Men.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> We didn't get the ultimate cut in theaters. And most people didn't even think to watch it after what we did get. The theatrical edition, what most people saw, has him just flying away.


Thank whomever at Warners that decided to cut half an hour of narrative from the movie. Snyder clearly intended for Superman to be shown rescuing people​.So the assertion that DCEU Supes doesn't care about people is moot.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Why? He got the speed of Flash, uber strength, super sight and hear ability, why couldn't he find Martha in 1 hour? It could work like Quick Silver in X-Men.


It's not realistic to expect him to find a gagged human on an entire planet in less than an hour with no leads and knowing there's likely a gun to the hostage's head should they get wind that he's coming.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It's not realistic to expect him to find a gagged human on an entire planet in less than an hour with no leads and knowing there's likely a gun to the hostage's head should they get wind that he's coming.


Quick Silver could save a whole school's kids in mere secs, and Superman can't find his mom in 1 hour? Are you kidding? If I'm the kidnapper, the last thing I would do is trying to kill Martha before Superman unless I want to be ripped into pieces.

He has the super hear and sight, it would also save him a lot of time.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It doesn't matter, Superman has the strength and speed to search quickly enough. He even got Lex on his hand, heat vision and all kinds of torture on the way if he doesn't speak.


Superman. Does. NOT. Torture people for information. Oh, and as Clark Kent points out, Lex made it clear that he didn't even know where Martha was. 




> He could find and rescue Lois in secs, why are you questioning his ability?


Because apparently I know his abilities and their limits better than you do. His abilities can be neutralized. If Lex had her locked in a soundproof cell that was lead-lined, none of his powers would allow him to find her. He didn't even know where to start looking. 




> Nope, Superman has human right on earth. Attempting to kill someone, whether it would work or not triggers self defense and Batman will 100% lose this case. It doesn't matter that CAN it work or not, but DOES he think it will work and DOES he want to kill. That's how the court decide the case. Superman will 100% win it.


NO ONE who knows anything about Superman would believe he was legitimately defending his life against a weapon that can't harm him. Batman would not lose the case because his lawyer would have no trouble convincing a jury that Batman was thoroughly aware that his attack wouldn't actually hurt Superman. He might get hit with Assault With A Deadly Weapon or something, but no one would say Superman was within his rights to attempt to murder a man who was shooting spitballs at him, to all intents and purposes. 




> Why? He got the speed of Flash, uber strength, super sight and hear ability, why couldn't he find Martha in 1 hour? It could work like Quick Silver in X-Men.


He hasn't demonstrated anywhere NEAR that level of speed yet, unless you count that scene with Flash in Justice League, which hadn't happened yet. 

"Speed of Flash?" Means nothing if he doesn't know where to start looking. 

"Strength?" Doesn't affect his ability to find her in any way.

"Sight?" Lead counters it. 

"Hear?" Soundproofing exists. 

He had one hour to find her and running all over the planet tearing up buildings would NOT be the most productive use of his time. Far better to try to enlist the help of the technological wizard whom he KNOWS to be engaged in some kind of feud with Luthor already.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Thank whomever at Warners that decided to cut half an hour of narrative from the movie. Snyder clearly intended for Superman to be shown rescuing people​.So the assertion that DCEU Supes doesn't care about people is moot.


No it’s not. The final cut of the movie, the official canon, showed him not saving people. It’s like how in the Ultimate cut, Steppenwolf looked like a monster but in Justice League, he looks more human. If something doesn’t make it into the final cut of a movie, it’s not really canon.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> No it’s not. The final cut of the movie, the official canon, showed him not saving people. It’s like how in the Ultimate cut, Steppenwolf looked like a monster but in Justice League, he looks more human. If something doesn’t make it into the final cut of a movie, it’s not really canon.


It's starting to feel like you are reaching in order to justify your view DCEU Supes is some unfeeling aberration  and not fit to be considered Superman,in spite of hard evidence of the original intention of the film makers which was Superman rescuing people. But, whatever. If it makes you feel better that's cool.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Quick Silver could save a whole school's kids in mere secs, and Superman can't find his mom in 1 hour? Are you kidding? If I'm the kidnapper, the last thing I would do is trying to kill Martha before Superman unless I want to be ripped into pieces.
> 
> He has the super hear and sight, it would also save him a lot of time.


There's a huge difference here...in your Quicksilver example, he KNEW where the people to save were at because he was RIGHT THERE. Martha Kent was abducted outside the diner where she works in Smallville Kansas. We don't know where Metropolis is located in the DCEU, but it has a coastline of Ocean so guess what? There are a lot of states in between where she could be held, and nobody is fast enough to search every square inch of each state. Not Flash, not Superman, not Quicksilver...nobody. The ONLY reason Batman even made it there in time is because they just happened to bring her to a local Warehouse; if they had kept her somewhere in Kansas, Martha would have been toast (literally). Clark had one option, and one option only - go to the guy who's been saving people for 20 years and beg him for his help.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> No it’s not. The final cut of the movie, the official canon, showed him not saving people. It’s like how in the Ultimate cut, Steppenwolf looked like a monster but in Justice League, he looks more human. *If something doesn’t make it into the final cut of a movie, it’s not really canon.*


I'm going to quote you on the bold the next time someone says "in Superman 2, Zod and company didn't die because the Arctic Police took them away!" :P 

I partially kid...but every time it's mentioned that Reeve's Superman killed Zod, it always gets thrown back that "it wasn't in the script!" or "the tv broadcast showed the Arctic Police!" 

Anyway, carry on. Just thought it was funny.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I'm going to quote you on the bold the next time someone says "in Superman 2, Zod and company didn't die because the Arctic Police took them away!" :P 
> 
> I partially kid...but every time it's mentioned that Reeve's Superman killed Zod, it always gets thrown back that "it wasn't in the script!" or "the tv broadcast showed the Arctic Police!" 
> 
> Anyway, carry on. Just thought it was funny.


I was going to bring it up but decided against it. Bless you.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It's starting to feel like you are reaching in order to justify your view DCEU Supes is some unfeeling aberration  and not fit to be considered Superman,in spite of hard evidence of the original intention of the film makers which was Superman rescuing people. But, whatever. If it makes you feel better that's cool.


I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiment that the final cut released to theaters is the only "canon" version of a film...but BvS is literally the only exception I can think of to that rule. The film was chopped at the 11th hour due to a WB mandate, and it's obvious that Superman rescuing survivors of the bombing was _intended_ to be there...if Snyder had been allowed to release the version he wanted to, and had purposely left that scene out, then I would say it paints Superman in a poor light. But that's not what happened, and I completely agree with you. 

In the case of JL, IF a Snyder cut was ever released, it would absolutely NOT be canon to the DCEU and would remain an interesting piece of side art just as the Donner Cut of SII is. The same would go for any potential "Ayer Cut" of Suicide Squad. Interesting glimpses of what could have been. But in the case of BvS Ultimate Cut, I really do think it should all be canon since that's the version that was supposed to be seen until WB meddled at the last minute.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I was going to bring it up but decided against it. Bless you.


*Fist-Bump* No prob. If this board enjoys arguing over the word "maybe" so darn much, then why not go all the way? Lol

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiment that the final cut released to theaters is the only "canon" version of a film...but BvS is literally the only exception I can think of to that rule. The film was chopped at the 11th hour due to a WB mandate, and it's obvious that Superman rescuing survivors of the bombing was _intended_ to be there...if Snyder had been allowed to release the version he wanted to, and had purposely left that scene out, then I would say it paints Superman in a poor light. But that's not what happened, and I completely agree with you. 
> 
> In the case of JL, IF a Snyder cut was ever released, it would absolutely NOT be canon to the DCEU and would remain an interesting piece of side art just as the Donner Cut of SII is. The same would go for any potential "Ayer Cut" of Suicide Squad. Interesting glimpses of what could have been. But in the case of BvS Ultimate Cut, I really do think it should all be canon since that's the version that was supposed to be seen until WB meddled at the last minute.


Yep. If anything, the theatrical cut is the non canon version. Hell, there are a few things in JL that are payed off that ONLY was shown in the ultimate cut. For instance, Lex being sent to Arkham Asylum was only mentioned in the Ultimate Cut...And that's what was reflected in what is shown in JL.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> There's a huge difference here...in your Quicksilver example, he KNEW where the people to save were at because he was RIGHT THERE. Martha Kent was abducted outside the diner where she works in Smallville Kansas. We don't know where Metropolis is located in the DCEU, but it has a coastline of Ocean so guess what? There are a lot of states in between where she could be held, and nobody is fast enough to search every square inch of each state. Not Flash, not Superman, not Quicksilver...nobody. The ONLY reason Batman even made it there in time is because they just happened to bring her to a local Warehouse; if they had kept her somewhere in Kansas, Martha would have been toast (literally). Clark had one option, and one option only - go to the guy who's been saving people for 20 years and beg him for his help.


Quick Silver doesn't have super hearing and vision, he was able to save a whole school's ppl in like less than 5 secs. Superman has 1 hour and the other ability to help him, he was able to catch Lois just in time, tell me how is he going to miss Martha?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yep. If anything, the theatrical cut is the non canon version. Hell, there are a few things in JL that are payed off that ONLY was shown in the ultimate cut. For instance, Lex being sent to Arkham Asylum was only mentioned in the Ultimate Cut...And that's what was reflected in what is shown in JL.


That's an excellent point...I'd forgotten the line about sending him to Arkham was only in the UC.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Quick Silver doesn't have super hearing and vision, he was able to save a whole school's ppl in like less than 5 secs. Superman has 1 hour and the other ability to help him, he was able to catch Lois just in time, tell me how is he going to miss Martha?


I already told you. Maybe you should re-read what you quoted, since you missed it.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I already told you. Maybe you should re-read what you quoted, since you missed it.


Superman was right there to catch Lois, how is he going to miss Martha?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Superman was right there to catch Lois, how is he going to miss Martha?


Sigh....

Lois is falling out in the open in Superman's city & screaming. Martha is gagged & tied up and could be anywhere on the planet. This isn't hard lol 

So you tell me: how is he going to find his mom when he has no idea what continent she is even on, and when he has less than an hour to do it?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's starting to feel like you are reaching in order to justify your view DCEU Supes is some unfeeling aberration  and not fit to be considered Superman,in spite of hard evidence of the original intention of the film makers which was Superman rescuing people. But, whatever. If it makes you feel better that's cool.


It’s not reaching if the final cut of the movie just has him flying away. That’s literally what we’re presented with. You can’t say I’m reaching when I’m simply going by the version that was released in theaters.

If anything, it’s reaching to bring in material that wasn’t even shown to general audiences in order to say that they’re wrong in their reactions.

The way that Superman has been presented, whether through the fault of Snyder, the studio, or some editor, is that he is shut off from humanity and doesn’t really act the way Superman would.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> The way that Superman has been presented, whether through the fault of Snyder, the studio, or some editor, is that he is shut off from humanity *and doesn’t really act the way Superman would.*


Too much valid source material contradicts this statement. It's not the end-all be-all interpretation of Superman, but it's nothing we haven't seen before in many of his celebrated works, particularly those focusing on his origins.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.thewrap.com/justice-leag...suicide-squad/

For people who are interested in unmade DC films, Umberto Gonzalez is posting what he says is a look at a 2011 pre-DCEU JL script from the writer of Gangster Squad. Seems like JL Mortal wasn't the only unmade JL film floating out there...

(lol at the tweets he and The Wrap used to promote this article by wording them to tease them getting Snyder and Terrio's original script)

----------


## manofsteel1979

> https://www.thewrap.com/justice-leag...suicide-squad/
> 
> For people who are interested in unmade DC films, Umberto Gonzalez is posting what he says is a look at a 2011 pre-DCEU JL script from the writer of Gangster Squad. Seems like JL Mortal wasn't the only unmade JL film floating out there...
> 
> (lol at the tweets he and The Wrap used to promote this article by wording them to tease them getting Snyder and Terrio's original script)


That's...Pretty wild.


Not necessarily better, but more ambitious than what we got.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Too much valid source material contradicts this statement. It's not the end-all be-all interpretation of Superman, but it's nothing we haven't seen before in many of his celebrated works, particularly those focusing on his origins.


What version of Superman would flee the scene while innocent civilians and bystanders were hurt? Maybe The Dark Side Superman, but I can't think of any other one.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> https://www.thewrap.com/justice-leag...suicide-squad/
> 
> For people who are interested in unmade DC films, Umberto Gonzalez is posting what he says is a look at a 2011 pre-DCEU JL script from the writer of Gangster Squad. Seems like JL Mortal wasn't the only unmade JL film floating out there...
> 
> (lol at the tweets he and The Wrap used to promote this article by wording them to tease them getting Snyder and Terrio's original script)


Interesting. I remember when WB passed on it after Gangster Squad bombed...sounds like a smart decision. JL, as it stands, may be a Frankenstein monster...but it's a lovable monster. I enjoyed it, despite its faults.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Wonder Woman and Justice League are in the Oscar shortlist for Best Visual Effects: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/osc...rs-1201903836/

Justice League, seriously?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Wonder Woman and Justice League are in the Oscar shortlist for Best Visual Effects: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/osc...rs-1201903836/
> 
> Justice League, seriously?


Do not underestimate the seductive charms of The Phantom Super Mustache :P

----------


## Jokerz79

> Wonder Woman and Justice League are in the Oscar shortlist for Best Visual Effects: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/osc...rs-1201903836/
> 
> Justice League, seriously?


I don't think either really deserve it. Now for costumes yeah Wonder Woman deserves it but visual effects no way IMO the Amazon who was shot while swinging off the hill looked right out of a video game cute scene and the less said about Justice League visual effects the better.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> I don't think either really deserve it. Now for costumes yeah Wonder Woman deserves it but visual effects no way IMO the Amazon who was shot while swinging off the hill looked right out of a video game cute scene and the less said about Justice League visual effects the better.


Yeah, the CGI in WW is not that great, especially during the 3rd act.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Gal Gadot and Henry Cavill are charging fans $350 for an autograph and photo at ACE Comic-Con: https://batman-news.com/2017/12/04/g...ace-comic-con/

AUTOGRAPH PRICING:

    Gal Gadot – $175.00
    Henry Cavill – $175.00
    Jason Momoa – $80.00
    Ciarán Hinds – $55.00
    Ezra Miller – $60.00
    Ray Fisher – $50.00

PHOTO OP PRICING:

    Henry Cavill & Gal Gadot DUAL – $350.00
    Gal Gadot – $175.00
    Henry Cavill – $175.00
    Jason Momoa – $85.00
    Ezra Miller – $75.00
    Ciarán Hinds – $70.00
    Ray Fisher – $65.00

Is that WB's way to make more money from JL?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Gal Gadot and Henry Cavill are charging fans $350 for an autograph and photo at ACE Comic-Con


Don't exactly see what's news here. Actors have always charged hundreds for autographs at conventions - I recall reading how Felicity Jones (or someone associated with Star Wars) was charging for autographs either in the 300s or 400s around the time Rogue One released.

----------


## Buried Alien

> Gal Gadot and Henry Cavill are charging fans $350 for an autograph and photo at ACE Comic-Con: https://batman-news.com/2017/12/04/g...ace-comic-con/
> 
> AUTOGRAPH PRICING:
> 
>     Gal Gadot – $175.00
>     Henry Cavill – $175.00
>     Jason Momoa – $80.00
>     Ciarán Hinds – $55.00
>     Ezra Miller – $60.00
> ...


Nah...that money goes directly to the performers, not to WB.

Though it's surprising that current A-List actors do this; usually, it's the domain of performers that haven't had any big active projects for a while.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Confuzzled

The convention organizers are doing it, hence the pricing is on their site. The actors have to agree to it but maybe they don't want to pose with so many fans so think just saying yes will reduce the number of photos taken? They don't really owe anyone a photograph/autograph. 

Also, the con must have obviously offered bigger bucks if they agreed to the pricing. Either way, it was initiated by the con and the $$ is majorly going to them. The actors' appearance fees are separate, even if those fees are increased by the pricing offer.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Wonder Woman and Justice League are in the Oscar shortlist for Best Visual Effects: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/osc...rs-1201903836/
> 
> Justice League, seriously?


It's not likely, but I'd love for one of them to win so we can hear "it doesn't count! It's not like it was Best Picture!" again  :Smile:

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's not likely, but I'd love for one of them to win so we can hear "it doesn't count! It's not like it was Best Picture!" again


Was Suicide Squad a critically acclaimed film that was lauded for its story or its direction? No, no it wasn't. Wanting something to be true is not the same as it actually being true.

MCU films regularly recieve Oscar nominations in similar categories. You don't see Marvel fans comparing the MCU to movies like Moonlight (last year's Best Picture winner).

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I don't think either really deserve it. Now for costumes yeah Wonder Woman deserves it but visual effects no way IMO the Amazon who was shot while swinging off the hill looked right out of a video game cute scene and the less said about Justice League visual effects the better.


Agreed. If anything, I'd say Wonder Woman is more qualified for Best Actress or Best Director than it is for Achievement is Visual Effects. Gal and Patty both killed it, but superhero films are rarely nominated for those types of categories. The only one that actually was was Heath Ledger's nod for Best Supporting Actor for his role as Joker in Dark Knight, which he ended up winning.

And the less said about Justice League, the better.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Agreed. If anything, I'd say Wonder Woman is more qualified for Best Actress or Best Director than it is for Achievement is Visual Effects. Gal and Patty both killed it, but superhero films are rarely nominated for those types of categories. The only one that actually was was Heath Ledger's nod for Best Supporting Actor for his role as Joker in Dark Knight, which he ended up winning.
> 
> And the less said about Justice League, the better.


I don't think she shall receive a Best Actress nomination. I don't find her acting very compelling. Rather Cavill and Affleck gave better performances in Man of Steel and Batman v Superman respectively. Controversial opinion i believe. She is entertaining to watch as Wonder Woman. But i don't think it was such a stellar acting performance. The film was made in such a way that she appeared fantastic.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Was Suicide Squad a critically acclaimed film that was lauded for its story or its direction? No, no it wasn't. Wanting something to be true is not the same as it actually being true.
> 
> MCU films regularly recieve Oscar nominations in similar categories. You don't see Marvel fans comparing the MCU to movies like Moonlight (last year's Best Picture winner).


Has anyone here compared Suicide Squad to Moonlight? That would be silly if they did. And who said SS was "lauded for its story or its direction"? I certainly didn't. 

I think you need to breathe & relax buddy. I put a smiley in my post, which should show it was tongue-in-cheek, but if your nerves get struck so easily then maybe your priorities are out of whack? 

Also, to be honest, an Oscar is an Oscar lol "It was only Best Makeup, it's not like it was an important award or anything"...tell that to the makeup artists for each film who have worked their tails off their entire career. But hey, keep on keeping on that hate train guy. MCU keeps getting nominated? Maybe someday they'll win one  :Smile:   (uh oh, there's that smiley again...)

----------


## Soubhagya

> Has anyone here compared Suicide Squad to Moonlight? That would be silly if they did. And who said SS was "lauded for its story or its direction"? I certainly didn't. 
> 
> I think you need to breathe & relax buddy. I put a smiley in my post, which should show it was tongue-in-cheek, but if your nerves get struck so easily then maybe your priorities are out of whack? 
> 
> Also, to be honest, an Oscar is an Oscar lol "It was only Best Makeup, it's not like it was an important award or anything"...tell that to the makeup artists for each film who have worked their tails off their entire career. But hey, keep on keeping on that hate train guy. MCU keeps getting nominated? Maybe someday they'll win one   (uh oh, there's that smiley again...)


MCU and DCEU keep things safe. Its difficult to get important awards like that. But the other ones like vfx, makeup and all? Yes, MCU can win those. And why call awards like Make Up not important? What would a film do without proper make up?  Remember so many films compete to get these awards. Out of all the competing films that year a DCEU film won it. Marvel has close to twenty films, but not a single of these 'lesser awards' yet.

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## Clark_Kent

> MCU and DCEU keep things safe. Its difficult to get important awards like that. But the other ones like vfx, make and all. Yes, MCU can win those. And why call awards like Make Up not important? What would a film do without proper make up?  Remember so many films compete to get these awards. Out of all the competing films that year a DCEU film won it. Marvel has close to twenty films, but not a single of these 'lesser awards'.


After SS won "Best Makeup", a stupid (new) divide broke among fans of both film universes. DCEU fanboys yelled "hey Marvel, we won an Oscar, you suck!" while Marvel fanboys yelled "who cares? It's JUST makeup, it's not like it was Best Picture or anything." Meanwhile, DCEU fans like myself who usually just stay quiet, got to watch everyone burn each others houses down. Again. So I was poking fun at this happening again, when another poster apparently got some feelers touched and decided to put words in my mouth. 

However, non-jokingly, I'll say this: however unlikely it may be, if Wonder Woman took home Best Picture or Best Director, there would actually be people here who couldn't handle DC finally having something the MCU does not have, that would say "it didn't deserve it" because they are just that petty.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

How Justice League could get nominated for best visual effects is beyond me. It has obvious CGI and Steppenwolf looks like a Hulk who hasn't been composited correctly from 2003. Even the backgrounds are clearly not present so I am just under the impression it was a mediocre year for SFX if Justice League of all things gets the nomination.

I also still call bullshit on Suicide Squad. What blew so many people away on it that it was the best of the year? The same makeup can and has been done by cosplayers for decades. Killer Croc was cool but as a latex monster costume it's not that impressive, that sort FX is actually really common. I'm almost positive The RPF has done it long before the movie.

----------


## Soubhagya

> How Justice League could get nominated for best visual effects is beyond me. It has obvious CGI and Steppenwolf looks like a Hulk who hasn't been composited correctly from 2003. Even the backgrounds are clearly not present so I am just under the impression it was a mediocre year for SFX if Justice League of all things gets the nomination.
> 
> I also still call bullshit on Suicide Squad. What blew so many people away on it that it was the best of the year? The same makeup can and has been done by cosplayers for decades. Killer Croc was cool but as a latex monster costume it's not that impressive, that sort FX is actually really common. I'm almost positive The RPF has done it long before the movie.


See you can have your opinion about whether SS was worthy of the win or not, but the fact is it won. People at the Academy who voted for it found it excellent. The year's winner is that year's winner. It is compared with the films released that year. Are you making FX and Make up same? Both are different things.

Justice League is in the shortlist. I don't think it will be in the final list of nominations.





> After SS won "Best Makeup", a stupid (new) divide broke among fans of both film universes. DCEU fanboys yelled "hey Marvel, we won an Oscar, you suck!" while Marvel fanboys yelled "who cares? It's JUST makeup, it's not like it was Best Picture or anything." Meanwhile, DCEU fans like myself who usually just stay quiet, got to watch everyone burn each others houses down. Again. So I was poking fun at this happening again, when another poster apparently got some feelers touched and decided to put words in my mouth. 
> 
> However, non-jokingly, I'll say this: however unlikely it may be, if Wonder Woman took home Best Picture or Best Director, there would actually be people here who couldn't handle DC finally having something the MCU does not have, that would say "it didn't deserve it" because they are just that petty.


I would try to be not petty.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
In my opinion Logan is a better film then Wonder Woman. I actually enjoyed Homecoming more then Wonder Woman. Then there must be better films. But if Wonder Woman wins i would be all over the moon. It would not happen but imagine it happening. That would be something really special. A comic book film has never even been nominated for best film yet. Films are by nature subjective. Imo generally those who win simply deserve the win. I may prefer something else, but i am not part of the Academy. There could be exceptions. But such things are rare. 

What can i say of fans? After all we love. Thus, we are fans. Only, when the other guys are too difficult or those who hate just because apparently hating is_ necessary_ to be a fan (Which is opposite of what the saying(fan) is!  :Smile: ) then i am annoyed. But truly speaking one can't escape it. A smiley is a good way to deal with it.

----------


## WhichDrWhowins

> Such dark and gritty element is a major reason of DCEU's struggle, even though they have learned their lesson since WW.


some wanted it to stay 'dark'

----------


## Vanguard-01

Suicide Squad's Oscar win can also be chalked up to pretty weak competition that year. I don't remember who the runner's up were, but I remember that none of them really stood out as being exceptional works.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Has anyone here compared Suicide Squad to Moonlight? That would be silly if they did. And who said SS was "lauded for its story or its direction"? I certainly didn't.


Yet you keep bringing up their Oscar win for *makeup* as if it implies that the film is actually a good movie. Again, the movie was *torn to shreds* by critics when it came to the actual quality of the story. Those are just the facts. The fact that the makeup was good does not change that.




> Also, to be honest, an Oscar is an Oscar lol "It was only Best Makeup, it's not like it was an important award or anything"...tell that to the makeup artists for each film who have worked their tails off their entire career. But hey, keep on keeping on that hate train guy. MCU keeps getting nominated? Maybe someday they'll win one   (uh oh, there's that smiley again...)


Its an important award...for the makeup team. They did their job well. But, again, that doesn't mean the story presented was at all good. It was a mess. The movie failed in many other regards.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> How Justice League could get nominated for best visual effects is beyond me. It has obvious CGI and Steppenwolf looks like a Hulk who hasn't been composited correctly from 2003. Even the backgrounds are clearly not present so I am just under the impression it was a mediocre year for SFX if Justice League of all things gets the nomination.
> 
> I also still call bullshit on Suicide Squad. What blew so many people away on it that it was the best of the year? The same makeup can and has been done by cosplayers for decades. Killer Croc was cool but as a latex monster costume it's not that impressive, that sort FX is actually really common. I'm almost positive The RPF has done it long before the movie.


Unless I read it wrong, I think Justice League is on the "shortlist". Nominations haven't actually gone out yet, and I highly, highly doubt JL gets a nom for any category.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yet you keep bringing up their Oscar win for *makeup* as if it implies that the film is actually good. Again, the movie was *torn to shreds* by critics when it came to the actual quality of the story. Those are just the facts. The fact that the makeup was good does not change that.


Today is literally the first time I've ever mentioned the Oscar, so no - I don't "keep bringing it up." And nobody is arguing the film was torn up by critics, but that has nada to do with the makeup. I never said the story was "good", so you can stop putting words in my mouth (I know this is how you debate, but it's fairly juvenile. Try debating what they actually said).




> Its an important award...for the makeup team.


Thank you for repeating what I said. Glad we agree.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> To the second bolded part, thank you for repeating what I said. Glad we agree.


Just as long as we agree that SS is not some critically acclaimed masterpiece because it won something completely divorced from the actual story (the thing that people watch movies for in the first place).

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## Soubhagya

> some wanted it to stay 'dark'


I must admit i did not watch the full video. Is it implying that Justice League failed because it was not 'dark' and was 'generic'? But aren't MCU films opposite of dark and many fans call it generic?

I say it flopped because you have these films BvS and SS which were disliked by the people in general. Combine that with MoS which was divisive too, you have three divisive films in DCEU. 

Divisive film series don't work for long. They show a decrease over time. Transformers and Pirates of Carribean are proofs. Justice League is not just a failure by itself, but its the result of the previous films.

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## Clark_Kent

> Just as long as we agree that SS is not some critically acclaimed masterpiece because it won something completely divorced from the actual story (you know, the thing that people watch movies for).


I agree that it won an Academy Award, yes. I agree that it wasn't due to story, acting, or directing, yes. 

I don't agree that ALL people only watch movies for the parameters you set in your post, but not everyone pays attention to the technical stuff. Largey depends on your background & interests, I suppose.

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## Doctor Know

> Suicide Squad's Oscar win can also be chalked up to pretty weak competition that year. I don't remember who the runner's up were, but I remember that none of them really stood out as being exceptional works.


It was Suicide Squad, Star Trek Beyond and La La Land for best hair and make up. La La Land cleaned up at the Oscars and Trek won the make up Oscar in 2009 ( that film didn't even have that many aliens to begin with). Beyond's work compared to Suicide Squad's was pretty weak. Only 2 stand out aliens and they had really small, bit parts.

The Oscar win is significant for other reasons though. As many critics of SS hated the street, tatted and messy look for the characters. Now though, those are Academy Award winning tattoos. Lol.

Its funny to see people react to SS's win. Critics flamed the film, so people on the internet take their world as gospel. The Academy recognizes and awards the film an Oscar for it's unique aesthetic, and people on the internet say winning an Oscar for make up isn't that big a deal and nothing special.


Granted, if Doctor Strange had won for best SFX earlier this year, you'd never have heard the end of it. Strange having lost to The Jungle Book. A Disney film beat another Disney film. X(

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I agree that it won an Academy Award, yes. I agree that it wasn't due to story, acting, or directing, yes. 
> 
> I don't agree that ALL people only watch movies for the parameters you set in your post, but not everyone pays attention to the technical stuff. Largey depends on your background & interests, I suppose.


People don't watch movies in order to enjoy a good story? That's the point of movies or any form of entertainment.

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## Soubhagya

> People don't watch movies in order to enjoy a good story? That's the point of movies or any form of entertainment.


Its not a big deal as you make it. Make Up is a technical award. People don't go to watch make up. Sure. But its an award category rewarding excellent work in one aspect. Not the whole. But a part of it.

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## Clark_Kent

> People don't watch movies in order to enjoy a good story? That's the point of movies or any form of entertainment.


That's not what I said. I said "not all", not "nobody". People get entertainment from many different things, and it's not always to do with the story. There's a reason so many people buy something like Transformers on 4K to see it on their new 4K home theater setups. They're not buying that for the story lol (at least, I hope they're not)

Some people watch & enjoy things just because it catches their eye. I'm not a fan of the story in Reeves' Apes trilogy, but I enjoy them for the eyecandy visuals. People are different.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Its funny to see people react to SS's win. Critics flamed the film, so people on the internet take their world as gospel. The Academy recognizes and awards the film an Oscar for it's unique aesthetic, and people on the internet say winning an Oscar for make up isn't that big a deal and nothing special.


You realize the Academy is split up so that members of different professions vote on the nominations in the different categories, right? Actors vote for actors, directors vote for directors, and so on. The makeup artists decided that Suicide Squad had good makeup. And it did. The team there did their job. But the acting branch, the directing branch, the screenwriting branch, the editing branch, etc. would all probably tell you the film was a mess in when it came to those things.

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## Clark_Kent

> Its not a big deal as you make it. Make Up is a technical award. *People don't go to watch make up*. Sure. But its an award category rewarding excellent work in one aspect. Not the whole. But a part of it.


True, for the most part. There are people though who seek out films for things such as makeup combined with costumes & set design. 

I own 'Gone With the Wind' on bluray, but I sought it out because of the technical achievements in that film. I surely don't care about whether Rhett Butler decides to "give a damn" or not. There are other films in my collection for the same purpose, even if the vast majority are in there because I enjoy the story first & foremost.

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## Clark_Kent

> You realize the Academy is split up so that members of different professions vote on the nominations in the different categories, right? Actors vote for actors, directors vote for directors, and so on. The makeup artists decided that Suicide Squad had good makeup. And it did. The team there did their job. *But the acting branch, the directing branch, the screenwriting branch, the editing branch, etc. would all probably tell you the film was a mess in when it came to those things.*


Nobody here is arguing differently, though. You seem hellbent on making a point that everyone already agrees with.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Its not a big deal as you make it. Make Up is a technical award. People don't go to watch make up. Sure. But its an award category rewarding excellent work in one aspect. Not the whole. But a part of it.


I never said that the makeup team didn't deserve props. But, like you said, makeup is only a part of what *can* make a movie good. It doesn't matter how good the makeup is if the direction or the acting or the writing are all bad. The final result would still be a bad movie...with good makeup.

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## Soubhagya

> True, for the most part. There are people though who seek out films for things such as makeup combined with costumes & set design. 
> 
> I own 'Gone With the Wind' on bluray, but I sought it out because of the technical achievements in that film. I surely don't care about whether Rhett Butler decides to "give a damn" or not. There are other films in my collection for the same purpose, even if the vast majority are in there because I enjoy the story first & foremost.


Alright that's fine. Not all people go to watch story, acting, etc. Nothing wrong with that. I do think that a film which fails in story, acting the entertainment value decreases by a lot. You do agree seeing that a vast majority is for story.

Your tastes are actually more refined then me. I care for story but that's not the most important thing for me. Its entertaining. Then its good enough.

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## Clark_Kent

> Alright that's fine. Not all people go to watch story, acting, etc. Nothing wrong with that. I do think that a film which fails in story, acting the entertainment value decreases by a lot. You do agree seeing that a vast majority is for story.
> 
> Your tastes are actually more refined then me. I care for story but that's not the most important thing for me. Its entertaining. Then its good enough.


I definitely don't think it's refined tastes lol we just like different stuff! That's what makes film such a wonderful source of entertainment, we all can get something different out of it.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> That's not what I said. I said "not all", not "nobody". People get entertainment from many different things, and it's not always to do with the story. There's a reason so many people buy something like Transformers on 4K to see it on their new 4K home theater setups. They're not buying that for the story lol (at least, I hope they're not)
> 
> Some people watch & enjoy things just because it catches their eye. I'm not a fan of the story in Reeves' Apes trilogy, but I enjoy them for the eyecandy visuals. People are different.


Eh, but some things are more universal than others. The visual effects in Wonder Woman are awful, but its a well-written, well-acted, well-directed film. That makes it better than movies where the visual effects are on point, but the story is not there.

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## Clark_Kent

> Eh, but some things are more universal than others. The visual effects in Wonder Woman are awful, but its a well-written, well-acted, well-directed film. That makes it better than movies where the visual effects are on point, but the story is not there.


Sure, many things are universal & myself and other film lovers like me are a definite minority when it comes to viewership, absolutely. I hesitate to discuss some things being "better" than other things, because it ventures into subjective territory. I think, when combining everything together, that "Vanilla Sky" is a brilliantly made film and easily "better" than anything put out by either the DCEU or the MCU, but 99% of people would probably disagree with me. 

Now, if we mean on an objective, technical level, then I'm cool with discussing "better". James Cameron is obviously is a better filmmaker on a technical level than, say, Zach Snyder, but I'd rather watch a Snyder film any day of the week because I just prefer his films, for what they do right as well as what they do wrong (Cameron's "Aliens" notwithstanding). From a filmmaking standpoint, I find Snyder's films more interesting to study, I guess.  

It's all personal taste though.

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## Robotman

Wow, if Disney buys Fox then Infinity Way part 2 would be one of the biggest movies of all time. WB could and should scrap any plans for future DC team up films because they would pale in comparison. If people were bored with Justice League because there have already been 3 Avengers films then there’s nothing they could do to compare with Deadpool, the X Men, and Fantastic Four teaming up with the current Marvel cinematic universe.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Wow, if Disney buys Fox then Infinity Way part 2 would be one of the biggest movies of all time. WB could and should scrap any plans for future DC team up films because they would pale in comparison. If people were bored with Justice League because there have already been 3 Avengers films then there’s nothing they could do to compare with Deadpool, the X Men, and Fantastic Four teaming up with the current Marvel cinematic universe.


Well, let's hope its a different Fantastic Four than the one that Fox has given us in the past.

But, either way, this is the product of Marvel playing the long game, while DC is simply trying to catch up. DC's movies as of now are rushed and slapped together and that's one of the main problems. Marvel didn't decide to have Iron Man fight an already-revived Captain America as soon as Iron Man 2. No, they slowly built up their universe and its paid off for them.

Justice League failed to hit the mark because we don't even know who these characters are. We don't know who Barry Allen or Victor Stone or Arthur Curry is in the context of this universe, so we have no reason to be excited to see them team up with Batman and Wonder Woman. Avengers had the benefit of fans being drawn in because the previous installments made them fans of Captain America and Iron Man and Thor. DC needed to do the same thing.

DC should simply focus on solo movies for a while, build up the actual universe. We already have Wonder Woman established in this universe, with a sequel on the way. There's also Aquaman, Flash, and Shazam in development or wrapped already. Green Lantern Corps, Batman, and Martian Manhunter films should follow. Then, try your hand at Justice League. They should just pretend like the first never happened.

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## Doctor Know

> Well, let's hope its a different Fantastic Four than the one that Fox has given us in the past.
> 
> But, either way, this is the product of Marvel playing the long game, while DC is simply trying to catch up. DC's movies as of now are rushed and slapped together and that's one of the main problems. Marvel didn't decide to have Iron Man fight an already-revived Captain America as soon as Iron Man 2. No, they slowly built up their universe and its paid off for them.
> 
> *Justice League failed to hit the mark because we don't even know who these characters are.* We don't know who Barry Allen or Victor Stone or Arthur Curry is in the context of this universe, so we have no reason to be excited to see them team up with Batman and Wonder Woman. Avengers had the benefit of fans being drawn in because the previous installments made them fans of Captain America and Iron Man and Thor. DC needed to do the same thing.
> 
> DC should simply focus on solo movies for a while, build up the actual universe. We already have Wonder Woman established in this universe, with a sequel on the way. There's also Aquaman, Flash, and Shazam in development or wrapped already. Green Lantern Corps, Batman, and Martian Manhunter films should follow. Then, try your hand at Justice League. They should just pretend like the first never happened.


@bold
No one made that complaint about any of the X-Men, GOTG, Suicide Squad, Star Wars (Disney's), Star Trek (reboot) and other group movies. Ensemble films don't always need build up. Marvel did it there way, and DC went the ensemble way. We didn't need another Batman solo, so close to Nolan's trilogy finishing, to reintroduce the audience to Batman. A Wonder Woman solo was a good idea, before a JL ensemble. 

I think JL had the misfortune of coming out at a bad time. 10 days after a blockbuster like Thor 3, was bound to hurt the gross. Like 2016, blockbusters are cannibalizing one another.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> @bold
> No one made that complaint about any of the X-Men, GOTG, Suicide Squad, Star Wars (Disney's), Star Trek (reboot) and other group movies. Ensemble films don't always need build up. Marvel did it there way, and DC went the ensemble way. We didn't need another Batman solo, so close to Nolan's trilogy finishing, to reintroduce the audience to Batman. A Wonder Woman solo was a good idea, before a JL ensemble. 
> 
> I think JL had the misfortune of coming out at a bad time. 10 days after a blockbuster like Thor 3, was bound to hurt the gross. Like 2016, blockbusters are cannibalizing one another.


Careful. I've been saying that about X-Men & GotG for about a year now, and I keep getting told those were "different" because reasons :P


Edit: I agree with the timing thing. I wish the film had been pushed back to sometime in the Spring of 2018...maybe give the VFX more time in the oven. Mind you, I do not think the version we got would have made a billion no matter when it was released or how good the effects are, but I do think it would have done better than it has been. Tickets are expensive, and concessions more so; with Thor, Star Wars a month later, and Black Friday / Christmas shopping on the horizon, November 17th was very poor timing.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Careful. I've been saying that about X-Men & GotG for about a year now, and I keep getting told those were "different" because reasons :P
> 
> 
> Edit: I agree with the timing thing. I wish the film had been pushed back to sometime in the Spring of 2018...maybe give the VFX more time in the oven. Mind you, I do not think the version we got would have made a billion no matter when it was released or how good the effects are, but I do think it would have done better than it has been. Tickets are expensive, and concessions more so; with Thor, Star Wars a month later, and Black Friday / Christmas shopping on the horizon, November 17th was very poor timing.


I agree. They should've tried for an August release, like Suicide Squad and GOTG 1 did. Those films cleaned up before the September slump set in.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I agree. They should've tried for an August release, like Suicide Squad and GOTG 1 did. Those films cleaned up before the September slump set in.


Honestly this film should've been pushed back to at least The Flash's original March 2018 release date. A 2018 release would've given more time to brush up the visual effects, iron out the seams between Whedon and Snyder's footage, maybe even avoid Mustache-gate.

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly this film should've been pushed back to at least The Flash's original March 2018 release date. A 2018 release would've given more time to brush up the visual effects, iron out the seams between Whedon and Snyder's footage, maybe even avoid Mustache-gate.


One of the more consistent suggestions I've seen for what WB should've done is that they should've pushed the movie back to give them more time to work on it, so we didn't end up with the mish-mashed and rushed feel of the movie they released in theaters.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> @bold
> No one made that complaint about any of the X-Men, GOTG, Suicide Squad, Star Wars (Disney's), Star Trek (reboot) and other group movies. Ensemble films don't always need build up. Marvel did it there way, and DC went the ensemble way. We didn't need another Batman solo, so close to Nolan's trilogy finishing, to reintroduce the audience to Batman. A Wonder Woman solo was a good idea, before a JL ensemble. 
> 
> I think JL had the misfortune of coming out at a bad time. 10 days after a blockbuster like Thor 3, was bound to hurt the gross. Like 2016, blockbusters are cannibalizing one another.


X-Men already come as a package deal because they're bound by the unifying theme of being mutants and by all being students of Charles Xavier. So, its easy to introduce them all as just that. They're not really all that disparate from one another and the point of those characters is largely just that they're, well, the X-Men. GoTG also has the common factor of all being alien bounty hunters and, again, the Guardians come as a package deal. Like the X-Men, here the individual characters don't really have anything else going for them or any independent mythos besides being in the Guardians.

Also, Suicide Squad didn't work. For a lot of reasons. But actually, one of those was that it *also* felt too soon for a Suicide Squad movie. If the entire premise of the team is that its made up of the villains of the different heroes of the DCU, don't you think it makes little sense that they get their movie before we even establish their relationships with said heroes in-universe? So, therefore, (and this is one of the things that dragged the movie down) we had to have rushed 2-minute scenes for every character in the movie, showing them being apprehended by their respective hero. If they'd waited until those characters had been introduced beforehand in a movie starring their respective heroes, they could have just devoted that time to the actual plot of the movie, instead of exposition. I mean, Captain Boomerang was in a starring role before the Flash..and Boomerang is supposed to be Flash's villain. Think about that.

But the most important thing, is that none of these teams are supposed to be the *flagship team* of an entire universe. The Avengers are a big deal because they represent the coming together of disparate characters and mythologies, the biggest characters in the Marvel Universe. That's why they built it up in separate movies. So that moviegoers would get the point that it wasn't just any old team-up, that it was "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" coming together.

The JLA is supposed to be the same exact thing. Its the flagship team of the DC Universe, the gathering of the world's greatest heroes, who themselves have their own separate mythologies, their own separate corners of the DCU. So, when you throw them together without building them up first, the audience is left wondering why this is at all a big deal. They don't grasp what makes any of these characters great *individually*. So, they don't see the big deal in them teaming up. People were hyped for the Avengers *because Marvel hyped them up by releasing independent movies*. Heck, even the people who created the Justice League back in the Silver Age got that. Flash had his own comic, Wonder Woman had her own comic, Green Lantern had his, Superman, Batman, and Aquaman all had their own, too. The kids reading the comics were already familiar with these characters, and then Julie Schwartz had the idea that teaming up these characters that the kids *already knew were great* into one team would make them even greater...and he was right.

So, that's why the ensemble film approach to Justice League doesn't work here.

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## TheNewFiftyForum

The "introduce the main characters in separate movies leading into a team-up movie with everyone involved" certainly worked, that's an established fact. However, I don't think WB/DC would have had to have gone the same way. As mentioned above, there are plenty of movies that manages to juggle large casts of characters without the benefit of earlier movies establishing them, and I even think you could take greater risks without a bunch of stuff already set up that dictates how your movie is supposed to work. For example, take the unproduced scripts for _Justice League Mortal_ (https://www.scribd.com/doc/194343200...al-2007-Script) or the recently unearthed Will Beal-draft from 2011 (https://www.thewrap.com/justice-leag...suicide-squad/). They are both unburdened by previously established characters and story beats from earlier movies, and can therefore take real risks and swing for the fences with their team-ups of the world's greatest heroes. I'm not sure that starting with a team-up movie and then give the successful characters their own movies would have worked as well financially as they Marvel/Disney-approach, but I'm pretty certain that it would have made for more daring and less stale movies as a whole.

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

DCEU could survive honestly by taking all their Swords & Sorcery titles and mixing it in more with Superheroes. In the same way GOT is the 15th Century turned up 11; Skartaris, Pytharia, Gemworld, Myrra etc. could be the Age Of Discovery turned up to 11 and have a wide range of stories to tell. Most of these places have gotten the 4th World treatment where it is a separate dimension and left to its own devices but the 4th World has a more set story and Kirby + More interesting characters have kept them around however 4th World has struggled to sell while Swords & Sorcery are regulated to guest appearances.

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## Pinsir

> Wow, if Disney buys Fox then Infinity Way part 2 would be one of the biggest movies of all time. WB could and should scrap any plans for future DC team up films because they would pale in comparison. If people were bored with Justice League because there have already been 3 Avengers films then there’s nothing they could do to compare with Deadpool, the X Men, and Fantastic Four teaming up with the current Marvel cinematic universe.


By all accounts the MCU franchise peaked with the first Avengers film. Why would adding X-Men characters make the film gross more? Why would adding X-Men characters make for a better film? There is no reason to assume any of this, particularly when, judging by the teaser they showed, Avengers 3 looks to be a poorly shot, garbage film with Steppenwolf 2.0 as the villain?

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> By all accounts the MCU franchise peaked with the first Avengers film. Why would adding X-Men characters make the film gross more? Why would adding X-Men characters make for a better film? There is no reason to assume any of this, particularly when, judging by the teaser they showed, Avengers 3 looks to be a poorly shot, garbage film with Steppenwolf 2.0 as the villain?


Avengers 3 Trailer broke record and Thanos is well known Villain that has carried his own comics and events while Stepponwolf is the equivalent of using Thanos Children as main Villain. Marvel will have all their characters and more story potential and a better group of people guiding the stories. DC first went with Zack Snyder’s Vision who has a passion mainly for the 80’s graphic novels and finds the rest silly.

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## Robotman

Im just sad that Marvel has essentially done what Superman and Orion never could. Theyve killed Darkseid. 

The original will be seen as a copy or rip off of the actual doppelgänger in the eyes of the general public/average movie goer.

My life long dream of seeing Darkseid on the big screen has been crushed.

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Darkseid will struggle with Cosmic stories. Multiverse and Hidden Realms still has potential. Not Every great threat needs to be cosmic

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## Vanguard-01

> I’m just sad that Marvel has essentially done what Superman and Orion never could. They’ve killed Darkseid. 
> 
> The original will be seen as a “copy” or “rip off” of the actual doppelgänger in the eyes of the general public/average movie goer.
> 
> My life long dream of seeing Darkseid on the big screen has been crushed.


Hardly. They just need to differentiate Darkseid FROM Thanos and make Darkseid look like "Thanos-who?" 

Sure, if they just have Darkseid waltz through a Boom Tube and start randomly blowing crap up until the League beats him down and throws him back through it, that'll suck and look like a Thanos ripoff. On the other hand, if they push Darkseid as the corrupting force who is literally killing the DCU just by EXISTING within it? That's very different. If they bill him as the master strategist who even knows how to turn his defeats into victories that ultimately serve his goals? That's leaps and bounds beyond Thanos. If they show him making good use of his vast resources and powerful servants, it will also differentiate him. 

All Infinity War takes off the table is that now WB would have to be CRAZY to make a Justice League: War movie, which is fine by me. All that has been eliminated is the option of using Darkseid at his blandest and most uninteresting. Now? If WB want to use him, they NEED to get creative and look at other aspects of Darkseid beyond "Oh, he's big, strong, and blows crap up with his eyes!"

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## Jokerz79

> By all accounts the MCU franchise peaked with the first Avengers film. Why would adding X-Men characters make the film gross more? Why would adding X-Men characters make for a better film? There is no reason to assume any of this, particularly when, judging by the teaser they showed, Avengers 3 looks to be a poorly shot, garbage film with Steppenwolf 2.0 as the villain?


Funny I thought Avengers Infinity War looked like a excellently shot especially the swooping scene of fighters in Wakanda charging, great film and a ten year continuing story coming together bringing all the characters together with a villain who has been teased and building anticipation for 5 years since Avengers.

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## Jokerz79

> Hardly. They just need to differentiate Darkseid FROM Thanos and make Darkseid look like "Thanos-who?" 
> 
> Sure, if they just have Darkseid waltz through a Boom Tube and start randomly blowing crap up until the League beats him down and throws him back through it, that'll suck and look like a Thanos ripoff. On the other hand, if they push Darkseid as the corrupting force who is literally killing the DCU just by EXISTING within it? That's very different. If they bill him as the master strategist who even knows how to turn his defeats into victories that ultimately serve his goals? That's leaps and bounds beyond Thanos. If they show him making good use of his vast resources and powerful servants, it will also differentiate him. 
> 
> All Infinity War takes off the table is that now WB would have to be CRAZY to make a Justice League: War movie, which is fine by me. All that has been eliminated is the option of using Darkseid at his blandest and most uninteresting. Now? If WB want to use him, they NEED to get creative and look at other aspects of Darkseid beyond "Oh, he's big, strong, and blows crap up with his eyes!"


Problem is the WB doesn't plan out their cinematic universe and stick to it they react to which way the wind is blowing.

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## Vanguard-01

> Problem is the WB doesn't plan out their cinematic universe and stick to it they react to which way the wind is blowing.


And do you REALLY want to tell me they're going to continue doing that in light of this newest disaster? I doubt it. Heck, if they want that AT&T merger to happen, they may find that continuing on the way they have is a flat-out dealbreaker at this point. 

Nah. Bad as this has been, I think it'll probably be just the shot to the head WB needs.

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## Soubhagya

> Wow, if Disney buys Fox then Infinity Way part 2 would be one of the biggest movies of all time. WB could and should scrap any plans for future DC team up films because they would pale in comparison. If people were bored with Justice League because there have already been 3 Avengers films then there’s nothing they could do to compare with Deadpool, the X Men, and Fantastic Four teaming up with the current Marvel cinematic universe.


I still think that a solid Justice League built on the back of a series of acclaimed standalone films would do really well. May not be as big as Avengers, but i don't think they shall try to. I don't think people were bored of Justice League because of three Avengers films. If that would be the case the next Avengers would do poorly as well. A big team up film, is another team up film. If IW fails then i may consider that people were bored of Justice League due to three Avengers films.  

While, i enjoyed Justice League a lot, its just not a good enough film for people in general. 41% RT, B+ Cinemascore, all point to this direction. It had a fall of about 60% last week. Normally, it shall be considered good. But its not. There are no new films opening to give them competition. Others are dropping below 50% at the same time. So, its not that they are bored of seeing a team up. Rather, they find the film lacking in entertainment value. 

_I have said this and again wish to repeat this. Justice League is not just a failure of its own. Just as it was supposed to be the culmination of a plan that started years ago, its reception in the BO is a culmination of a series of divisive films which turned people off. 
_
I have changed my mind. It would not be a problem if they made the DCEU just like they made. MoS->BvS->SS->WW->JL. Had all the films been a critical as well as a commercial success with people loving them then Justice League would have been something else. I would say let them make Justice League after Man of Steel. That way Zack Snyder would be forced to make a solid team up film which seeks to entertain rather then make the audience think. 300 is an example of a film whose purpose is only to entertain. BvS tried a lot of things. A JL would then have taken inspiration from JL's first arc of New 52. It might not be liked by many fans, but its definitely a source which can work as a solid action, adventure, superhero team up film. People would be curious to watch Batman and Superman in JL just as they were in watching BvS. It opened huge indicating massive interest. A solid entertaining film would then do the rest.

I say the way forward is reboot. Starting fresh would make the people forget the dissapointing films which came before. A couple of solid films in a row and DCEU is back on track. While other fans say a continuation of stand alone films. I don't think that's enough. They are risky in my opinion. A couple of failures which is quite possible would simply end the DCEU. Start with Matt Reeve's Batman as the rebooted DCEU and go from there. After a reboot they just need to make a couple of good and entertaining films. Dark, light it does not matter as long as people love them, are critically good enough and well received by fans.

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## Bossace

> I still think that a solid Justice League built on the back of a series of acclaimed standalone films would do really well. May not be as big as Avengers, but i don't think they shall try to. I don't think people were bored of Justice League because of three Avengers films. If that would be the case the next Avengers would do poorly as well. A big team up film, is another team up film. If IW fails then i may consider that people were bored of Justice League due to three Avengers films.  
> 
> While, i enjoyed Justice League a lot, its just not a good enough film for people in general. 41% RT, B+ Cinemascore, all point to this direction. It had a fall of about 60% last week. Normally, it shall be considered good. But its not. There are no new films opening to give them competition. Others are dropping below 50% at the same time. So, its not that they are bored of seeing a team up. Rather, they find the film lacking in entertainment value. 
> 
> _I have said this and again wish to repeat this. Justice League is not just a failure of its own. Just as it was supposed to be the culmination of a plan that started years ago, its reception in the BO is a culmination of a series of divisive films which turned people off. 
> _
> I have changed my mind. It would not be a problem if they made the DCEU just like they made. MoS->BvS->SS->WW->JL. Had all the films been a critical as well as a commercial success with people loving them then Justice League would have been something else. I would say let them make Justice League after Man of Steel. That way Zack Snyder would be forced to make a solid team up film which seeks to entertain rather then make the audience think. 300 is an example of a film whose purpose is only to entertain. BvS tried a lot of things. A JL would then have taken inspiration from JL's first arc of New 52. It might not be liked by many fans, but its definitely a source which can work as a solid action, adventure, superhero team up film. People would be curious to watch Batman and Superman in JL just as they were in watching BvS. It opened huge indicating massive interest. A solid entertaining film would then do the rest.
> 
> I say the way forward is reboot. Starting fresh would make the people forget the dissapointing films which came before. A couple of solid films in a row and DCEU is back on track. While other fans say a continuation of stand alone films. I don't think that's enough. They are risky in my opinion. A couple of failures which is quite possible would simply end the DCEU. Start with Matt Reeve's Batman as the rebooted DCEU and go from there. After a reboot they just need to make a couple of good and entertaining films. Dark, light it does not matter as long as people love them, are critically good enough and well received by fans.


I like your idea to reboot, i'm not sure I can trust the future of the DCEU to Aquaman and Shazam. Aquaman who felt like a bro the whole movie and i felt no connection or need to care more about him, as much as I like the comic book character. Same with Shazam, the character is an absolute unknown to general audiences and with this very weak foundation the DCEU is built on, between the literal unknown and brand damage will anyone want to take a chance if they didn't even bother with JL, and thats not including the people who hated that and are turned off even more to DC. For all we know JL killed any public interest in Aquaman too. Again I could be entirely wrong and if those two movies do great thats great because I want better movies we deserve them, look how divided every topic is and how people still argue about MOS. I guarantee you we will never see the Injustice League or Darkseid. I can't see WB wanting to take ANY risks now, which makes me think shazam could be canned soon.

Start fresh, have a strong foundation get a guy like Feige to have a solid vision from the start and implement it. No last minute cuts, no silly interference from execs.

I want good DC movies, if that means just solo movies self contained like has been rumored i'd be fine with that. Better to have that then the mess we have now that has everyone divided arguing.

----------


## Troian

> By all accounts the MCU franchise peaked with the first Avengers film. Why would adding X-Men characters make the film gross more? Why would adding X-Men characters make for a better film? There is no reason to assume any of this, particularly when, judging by the teaser they showed, Avengers 3 looks to be a poorly shot, garbage film with Steppenwolf 2.0 as the villain?


They peaked domestically. Overseas is ever expanding. 

It will likely be a hit the general audience. I mean Wonder Woman had overused slow motion in almost every fight, so many unneeded close ups, campy villains and a bad cgi finale fight but had insane word of mouth. Hell, Avengers 1 was a decent popcorn flick at best but is one of the only films to open above 150 million to have a 3x weekend multiplier so.. 

Honestly IW looked like the same old nothing new but with a crap ton more characters. It will probably do well but no one should expect to get over 600 mil dom. it will need insane legs and that the consistent track record of the McU means it won't reach those numbers.

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## inisideguy

I don't know if anyone else feels this way but I don't really care if they have a unified universe or make the movies separate from each other. As long as they are good movies.

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## Troian

> I still think that a solid Justice League built on the back of a series of acclaimed standalone films would do really well. May not be as big as Avengers, but i don't think they shall try to. I don't think people were bored of Justice League because of three Avengers films. If that would be the case the next Avengers would do poorly as well. A big team up film, is another team up film. If IW fails then i may consider that people were bored of Justice League due to three Avengers films.  
> 
> While, i enjoyed Justice League a lot, its just not a good enough film for people in general. 41% RT, B+ Cinemascore, all point to this direction. It had a fall of about 60% last week. Normally, it shall be considered good. But its not. There are no new films opening to give them competition. Others are dropping below 50% at the same time. So, its not that they are bored of seeing a team up. Rather, they find the film lacking in entertainment value. 
> 
> _I have said this and again wish to repeat this. Justice League is not just a failure of its own. Just as it was supposed to be the culmination of a plan that started years ago, its reception in the BO is a culmination of a series of divisive films which turned people off. 
> _
> I have changed my mind. It would not be a problem if they made the DCEU just like they made. MoS->BvS->SS->WW->JL. Had all the films been a critical as well as a commercial success with people loving them then Justice League would have been something else. I would say let them make Justice League after Man of Steel. That way Zack Snyder would be forced to make a solid team up film which seeks to entertain rather then make the audience think. 300 is an example of a film whose purpose is only to entertain. BvS tried a lot of things. A JL would then have taken inspiration from JL's first arc of New 52. It might not be liked by many fans, but its definitely a source which can work as a solid action, adventure, superhero team up film. People would be curious to watch Batman and Superman in JL just as they were in watching BvS. It opened huge indicating massive interest. A solid entertaining film would then do the rest.
> 
> I say the way forward is reboot. Starting fresh would make the people forget the dissapointing films which came before. A couple of solid films in a row and DCEU is back on track. While other fans say a continuation of stand alone films. I don't think that's enough. They are risky in my opinion. A couple of failures which is quite possible would simply end the DCEU. Start with Matt Reeve's Batman as the rebooted DCEU and go from there. After a reboot they just need to make a couple of good and entertaining films. Dark, light it does not matter as long as people love them, are critically good enough and well received by fans.


Look at what frickin WW did and SS despte all the negative/meh rep.

If MoS, BvS and SS were all as critically acclaimed as WW was and if JL was as critically acclaimed and maybe reinvented the wheel so it wasn't just another superhero team up origin movie, It legit would have had a big shot at beating the Avengers domestically because just like WW and the 70s show and every other media appearance, the Justice League has nostalgia especially from the older crowd due to Superfriends and the DcAU. But that is now all tarnished.

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## Jokerz79

> And do you REALLY want to tell me they're going to continue doing that in light of this newest disaster? I doubt it. Heck, if they want that AT&T merger to happen, they may find that continuing on the way they have is a flat-out dealbreaker at this point. 
> 
> Nah. Bad as this has been, I think it'll probably be just the shot to the head WB needs.


What are they doing now? Scrambling to change course exactly what they've been doing since BvS they come up with a plan and then change the moment it looks like failure ir just is failure. IMO that won't change for Marvel Studios the Marvel properties are it for WB it's one corner of a bigger whole that's a big difference when it comes to importance.

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## Soubhagya

> I like your idea to reboot, i'm not sure I can trust the future of the DCEU to Aquaman and Shazam. Aquaman who felt like a bro the whole movie and i felt no connection or need to care more about him, as much as I like the comic book character. Same with Shazam, the character is an absolute unknown to general audiences and with this very weak foundation the DCEU is built on, between the literal unknown and brand damage will anyone want to take a chance if they didn't even bother with JL, and thats not including the people who hated that and are turned off even more to DC. For all we know JL killed any public interest in Aquaman too. Again I could be entirely wrong and if those two movies do great thats great because I want better movies we deserve them, look how divided every topic is and how people still argue about MOS. I guarantee you we will never see the Injustice League or Darkseid. I can't see WB wanting to take ANY risks now, which makes me think shazam could be canned soon.
> 
> Start fresh, have a strong foundation get a guy like Feige to have a solid vision from the start and implement it. No last minute cuts, no silly interference from execs.
> 
> I want good DC movies, if that means just solo movies self contained like has been rumored i'd be fine with that. Better to have that then the mess we have now that has everyone divided arguing.


I would like to add that, i definitely want the solo films to be in the same universe with potential to team up in the future. First phase MCU films were all standalone affairs. With world building stuff reduced to background material. When it was brought to the forefront, it resulted in Iron Man 2, one of the lesser entries. Only after Avengers, in the second phase they were confident enough to make films such that Black Widow and Captain America can be in the same film and play important roles. 

In short, their universe's growth was organic. Not something forced upon like they tried with BvS and SS. WW is like a phase one MCU film. The film was still set in the same universe, but alluding to a wider world was background stuff. Even now Marvel gives this wider world stuff as bonus material. Something for longtime fans. Its to service the movie not to distract from the film itself.




> Look at what frickin WW did and SS despte all the negative/meh rep.
> 
> If MoS, BvS and SS were all as critically acclaimed as WW was and if JL was as critically acclaimed and maybe reinvented the wheel so it wasn't just another superhero team up origin movie, It legit would have had a big shot at beating the Avengers domestically because just like WW and the 70s show and every other media appearance, the Justice League has nostalgia especially from the older crowd due to Superfriends and the DcAU. But that is now all *tarnished*.


I highlighted the word 'tarnished'. If any DCEU fan or any film fan in general can't see that, they are kidding themselves. BvS opened really huge. Since, then each film has decreased. In fact, JL is just about half of that 166 million which was supposed to challenge Avengers. JL 's numbers point to one and one thing only, people are abandoning the DCEU. They are losing interest.

If all things worked as you said, JL would definitely be a blockbuster challenging Avengers. Its Avengers with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. While some fans tend to reduce the importance of these names, these names have a widespread appeal beyond the comic book fans.

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## SuperiorIronman

If they need 600 million they are definitely limping towards the finish.

It was meant to follow up a critical disaster of a film whose only success spawned another movie (Wonder Woman) that was connected to it so much that if you skipped the framing device you miss nothing. So going in; your prior two movies are divisive to bad, and your only real success spawns from a glorified cameo. Not to mention that BVS was even hurt by its competition who did a much better job tackling similar subject matter. So with response to what was going on behind the scenes with reactions to Marvel and the GA you also end up with a director who suffers an awful tragedy who has to be replaced but also has a tonal difference. 
So a mixture of a lack of faith in the brand, a competing franchise that tends to make better decisions, a competition who already hit that milestone 5 years ago, following up on one of the biggest disaster of your brands life, with two directors of different tones, and you expect what? 

I'm not sure if anybody could've saved this, it was just way too early and a bad time for Justice League. No amount of reinventing the wheel would've changed the time frame to make it especially with all that went on during production.

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## manofsteel1979

> Careful. I've been saying that about X-Men & GotG for about a year now, and I keep getting told those were "different" because reasons :P
> 
> 
> Edit: I agree with the timing thing. I wish the film had been pushed back to sometime in the Spring of 2018...maybe give the VFX more time in the oven. Mind you, I do not think the version we got would have made a billion no matter when it was released or how good the effects are, but I do think it would have done better than it has been. Tickets are expensive, and concessions more so; with Thor, Star Wars a month later, and Black Friday / Christmas shopping on the horizon, November 17th was very poor timing.


Stop using logic! We all know the only explanation for JL's failure was because BvS all by itself ruined the DC brand and there are no other reasons! I mean, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were complete flops too, right? I mean neither of them had legs or made decent profits and as we all know, BvS,SS AND Wonder Woman all flopped horribly on home video and ...

Oh...Wait.... None of that I just said was the case. Huh.


Now, no doubt about it, BvS and it's fallout did affect JL in a negative way,but as you guys pointed out it was really a perfect storm of many factors that all led to JL not doing what Warners had wanted. You can't sugar coat it for sure, but the narrative that some want to push is that the BvS factor is the only reason JL is sputtering is frankly hogwash. 

JL was merely an OK film after a great one ( Wonder Woman)  that wasn't well served by it's promotional material, released soon after a Thor Movie that many really seem to like ( I thought it was overrated and meh and only marginally better than The Dark World, but apparently I'm the only one that shares that opinion. No one can deny it's made a shit ton of money and was backed up with near orgasmic glowing reviews) and before freaking Star Wars at a time where money is pretty tight and desposable income is being spent on other things. 


Plus, the factor that to the general public, JL just seemed like a copy cat Avengers and are either opting to wait until video or skip it all together and wait for the next WW, solo Superman or solo Batman movie. 



Fact is, even if JL had by some miracle pulled a billion dollars, many of the same usual suspects here and elsewhere would be telling us it flopped  and it should have made 2 billion instead and the conversation would have still inevitably still gone back to PA Kent saying " Maybe" and man of murder blah blah blah, circlejerk ad infinitum. 

In other words, Tuesday on the DCEU thread.

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## Lightning Rider

I wanted moar

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## Clark_Kent

> Stop using logic! We all know the only explanation for JL's failure was because BvS all by itself ruined the DC brand and there are no other reasons! I mean, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were complete flops too, right? I mean neither of them had legs or made decent profits and as we all know, BvS,SS AND Wonder Woman all flopped horribly on home video and ...
> 
> Oh...Wait.... None of that I just said was the case. Huh.
> 
> 
> Now, no doubt about it, BvS and it's fallout did affect JL in a negative way,but as you guys pointed out it was really a perfect storm of many factors that all led to JL not doing what Warners had wanted. You can't sugar coat it for sure, but the narrative that some want to push is that the BvS factor is the only reason JL is sputtering is frankly hogwash. 
> 
> JL was merely an OK film after a great one ( Wonder Woman)  that wasn't well served by it's promotional material, released soon after a Thor Movie that many really seem to like ( I thought it was overrated and meh and only marginally better than The Dark World, but apparently I'm the only one that shares that opinion. No one can deny it's made a shit ton of money and was backed up with near orgasmic glowing reviews) and before freaking Star Wars at a time where money is pretty tight and desposable income is being spent on other things. 
> 
> ...


I love this post so much.

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## Robotman

Obviously Affleck is done as Batman and I wouldn’t be surprised if WB wants to shelve Superman for a while after all this mess. So sadly I don’t think we’ll get a true MoS sequel. Since Cavill is only under contract for one more appearance as Superman I wonder if they’ll just use his last go round as a cameo in Suicide Squad 2. Black Adam is set to debut in that movie and they’ve been teasing a Superman vs Black Adam fight for a while. 

If (and it’s a huge IF) Suicide Squad 2 manages to not be terrible, WB could always put together a Justice League vs Suicide Squad flick. seeing Harley, Black Adam, and Will Smith’s Deadshot against the League may generate excitement with the average movie goer.

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## Baggie_Saiyan

> Stop using logic! We all know the only explanation for JL's failure was because BvS all by itself ruined the DC brand and there are no other reasons! I mean, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were complete flops too, right? I mean neither of them had legs or made decent profits and as we all know, BvS,SS AND Wonder Woman all flopped horribly on home video and ...
> 
> Oh...Wait.... None of that I just said was the case. Huh.
> 
> 
> Now, no doubt about it, BvS and it's fallout did affect JL in a negative way,but as you guys pointed out it was really a perfect storm of many factors that all led to JL not doing what Warners had wanted. You can't sugar coat it for sure, but the narrative that some want to push is that the BvS factor is the only reason JL is sputtering is frankly hogwash. 
> 
> JL was merely an OK film after a great one ( Wonder Woman)  that wasn't well served by it's promotional material, released soon after a Thor Movie that many really seem to like ( I thought it was overrated and meh and only marginally better than The Dark World, but apparently I'm the only one that shares that opinion. No one can deny it's made a shit ton of money and was backed up with near orgasmic glowing reviews) and before freaking Star Wars at a time where money is pretty tight and desposable income is being spent on other things. 
> 
> ...


Completely agree RE: BvS, funny how no article ever brings up the fact it made slightly more money than CA:CW on home video, one article loosely mentioned it made the second highest gross last CBM year but then went on for paragraphs saying how it had a terrible WoM and got random quotes from random "analysts". 

In one of the reports last year Jeff Bewkes (CEO of Time Warner) called BvS a success flat out and said he couldn't wait for WB to release SS in the summer. Unsurprisingly not many sites picked up on that. 

Furthermore we have no idea what digital sales were like and further futhermore no idea how much merchandise money it made, MoS for example was able to pocket 200m before release! 

People think BO is the be all and end all but for CBMs there are so much more to it. When Spidey was back at SONY, MARVEL were practically advertising those ASM movies like it were their own, why? Cuz Spidey shifts more merch than any other hero by a long way, they'd be stupid not too.

----------


## Outside_85

Went to see JL for a second time last night, and oddly enough... I didn't think it was as bad as it was the first time around.

Though I am still crossing my fingers and hope that WB is going to do like they did with BvS and admit they screwed up and release and extended version once it's time for home release. A Snyder-cut of the movie with Junkie XL doing the music is likely too much to ask... but one can hope in this world where Disney/Lucasarts can plop out the original Star Wars movies half a dozen times adding more and more stuff to them with each new release.




> If (and it’s a huge IF) Suicide Squad 2 manages to not be terrible, WB could always put together a Justice League vs Suicide Squad flick. seeing Harley, Black Adam, and Will Smith’s Deadshot against the League may generate excitement with the average movie goer.


I have to wonder who on Earth would think this is a good idea? I mean Suicide Squad only managed to generate hype from trailers that grossly misrepresented what the movie was going to do. JL is struggling as it is, SS actually sucked, no one has forgotten either and putting them together just sounds like a huge waste of time and money (Will Smith is not a cheap actor, neither is Dwayne Johnson)... and for what? Just so we can write off Cavill and Affleck?

----------


## Confuzzled

Justice League vs. Suicide Squad is a super desperate and unnecessary move this soon. Just stick with the program and have the solo movies setting up the individual members of the Legion of Doom, who then team up to take on the JL with JL2. Fundamentally it's the same concept (heroes vs. villains) but far better as it's the League's villains and also allows for more focus on the individual League members as well. And won't be as rushed and gimmicky as JLvSS.

----------


## Pinsir

> Avengers 3 Trailer broke record


I'm certain a bunch of other MCU trailers beat the Avengers record and yet none of them have superseded it in the box office.




> Funny I thought Avengers Infinity War looked like a excellently shot especially the swooping scene of fighters in Wakanda charging, great film and a ten year continuing story coming together bringing all the characters together with a villain who has been teased and building anticipation for 5 years since Avengers.


Except the villain is going to be bad. Marvel has a well known track record for poor villains, and their cgi ones are particularly forgettable. If Steppenwolf is bad, who cares? No one is really invested in him. If Thanos is bad, well, the MCU is as an idea is exposed for the hollow, vapid and empty franchise it is.

----------


## Carabas

> Except the villain is going to be bad. Marvel has a well known track record for poor villains, and their cgi ones are particularly forgettable. If Steppenwolf is bad, who cares? No one is really invested in him. If Thanos is bad, well, the MCU is as an idea is exposed for the hollow, vapid and empty franchise it is.


People don't really seem to mind the meh villains.
Also, when did the MCU have a CGI main villain before Thanos? Other than Ultron who is one of my favourite non-Netflix MCU villains.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If Thanos is bad, well, the MCU is as an idea is exposed for the hollow, vapid and empty franchise it is.


They'll distract people by having him press the Reality Stone and giving birth to MCU mutants  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> How Justice League could get nominated for best visual effects is beyond me. It has obvious CGI and Steppenwolf looks like a Hulk who hasn't been composited correctly from 2003. Even the backgrounds are clearly not present so I am just under the impression it was a mediocre year for SFX if Justice League of all things gets the nomination.
> 
> I also still call bullshit on Suicide Squad. What blew so many people away on it that it was the best of the year? The same makeup can and has been done by cosplayers for decades. Killer Croc was cool but as a latex monster costume it's not that impressive, that sort FX is actually really common. I'm almost positive The RPF has done it long before the movie.


Is there such a thing  as a razzie award for worst visual effects? Because if so then Justice League would unquestionably  get nominated.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Except the villain is going to be bad. Marvel has a well known track record for poor villains, and their cgi ones are particularly forgettable. If Steppenwolf is bad, who cares? No one is really invested in him. *If Thanos is bad, well, the MCU is as an idea is exposed for the hollow, vapid and empty franchise it is.*


Doubtful, Marvel gets by on its bad villains because the movies are otherwise well constructed and people like the heroes. This will be no different.

----------


## Carabas

> Doubtful, Marvel gets by on its bad villains because the movies are otherwise well constructed and people like the heroes. This will be no different.


It's really a novel idea, superhero films where people like the heroes instead of the villains. You didn't used to that often.

----------


## Agent Z

> It's really a novel idea, superhero films where people like the heroes instead of the villains. *You didn't used to that often.*


Um, yes you did. Plenty. Superman I and II. Blade. Sam Raimi and Marc Webb Spider-Man. Thomas Jane's Punisher. The X-Men (well Wolverine was pretty popular any way). The Nolan Trilogy. The MCU didn't invent this.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I’m just sad that Marvel has essentially done what Superman and Orion never could. They’ve killed Darkseid. 
> 
> The original will be seen as a “copy” or “rip off” of the actual doppelgänger in the eyes of the general public/average movie goer.
> 
> My life long dream of seeing Darkseid on the big screen has been crushed.


That's probably  the hardest thing about being a DC fan right now. DC been screwing up so badly and been beaten to the punch so many times by Marvel  that its  become super frustrating and you can't help but get a little jealous of the competition. The days where Nolan's Batman held the box office  crown  are gone--Marvel has it now and judging from the fact that a  movie that had Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman in it together was beaten by a _second_ Spider-Man reboot and, a _second_ movie with a talking racoon and and a walking tree, and last by a _third_ Thor movie ---they're not going to be forfeiting that crown back to DC anytime soon.  It's a pathetic situation but that's where we are.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Stop using logic! We all know the only explanation for JL's failure was because BvS all by itself ruined the DC brand and there are no other reasons! I mean, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were complete flops too, right? I mean neither of them had legs or made decent profits and as we all know, BvS,SS AND Wonder Woman all flopped horribly on home video and ...
> 
> Oh...Wait.... None of that I just said was the case. Huh.
> 
> 
> Now, no doubt about it, BvS and it's fallout did affect JL in a negative way,but as you guys pointed out it was really a perfect storm of many factors that all led to JL not doing what Warners had wanted. You can't sugar coat it for sure, but the narrative that some want to push is that the BvS factor is the only reason JL is sputtering is frankly hogwash. 
> 
> JL was merely an OK film after a great one ( Wonder Woman)  that wasn't well served by it's promotional material, released soon after a Thor Movie that many really seem to like ( I thought it was overrated and meh and only marginally better than The Dark World, but apparently I'm the only one that shares that opinion. No one can deny it's made a shit ton of money and was backed up with near orgasmic glowing reviews) and before freaking Star Wars at a time where money is pretty tight and desposable income is being spent on other things. 
> 
> ...


It wasn't just some ok film there were serious issues and more coming out everyday and most of the issues go back to the WB.

Suicide Squad made money but was a mess and they even had a trailer house a freaking trailer house make cuts.

The Studio wanted rid of Snyder from almost the start of Justice League but also didn't want to halt production which we now know some of that had it do with protecting their own bonuses. 

They had various edits of the film cutting key scenes out.

The film had bad CGI and yes it was bad.

& here's the issue with DCEU Stans the DCEU is in trouble and they act like 



Instead of looking at the real issues of the DCEU which is the worse thing one can do is bury their head but no it will be it's the critics and rotten tomatoes, or it's the "Not Muh Superman Crowd's fault" well at least they care enough to actually say there is a problem. Or it's the MCU films aren't that good except they are good not amazing but good they're not technical messes like many of the DCEU which were choppy messes and more importantly they are critical and financial hits while the DCEU since BvS has made less and less with each domestic opening weekend. 

Should the DCEU be like the MCU? No it should be it's own thing but it's barely keeping it's head above water and needs to be fixed and soon or it will be dropped because the WB isn't a charity and aren't doing this to break even or make miniscule profits they want the big money and unlike Marvel Studios they have other films not DC related to fall back on and move forward with.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> That's probably  the hardest thing about being a DC fan right now. DC's been screwing up so badly and been beaten to the punch so many times by Marvel  that its  become super frustrating and you can't help but get a little jealous of the competition. The days where Nolan's Batman held the box office  crown  are gone--Marvel has it now and judging from the fact that a  movie that had Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman in it together was beaten by a _second_ Spider-Man reboot and, a _second_ movie with a talking racoon and and a walking tree, and last by a _third_ Thor movie ---they're not going to be forfeiting that crown back to DC anytime soon.  It's a pathetic situation but that's where we are.


DC could have had an extended universe of their own 20 years ago, but dicked around for too long  and barely could put out any halfway decent Superman or Batman movies until the last decade or so, and expected to catch up in one movie and play the same game. That's pure incompetence honestly. 

As much as I liked MOS and the Ultimate Cut of BvS, there was no way they could or should have jumped straight to JL. 

The mistake DC made here is instead of trying to beat Marvel at their own game, they should have continued to carve their own niche. Snyder should have been allowed to do his Supes trilogy as he originally intended, with work on a new Batman separately, and WW, then after the Supes trilogy wrapped up and Batman and WW had their first solo movies, THEN do BvS...Then perhaps Flash and Aquaman movies THEN JL with perhaps a version of the Legion of Doom as the villains and a solid reason ( along with maybe the Death of Superman) for Batman and Wonder woman to gather a Justice League. JL then could have been a very different type of team up movie than Avengers. The world greatest heroes vs. their archenemies instead of a yet another pointless alien invasion. 

Instead they tried to Marvel it up, and while the results was a fun movie to us geeks, it came off as Avengers left overs to everyone else. And they aren't wrong.

----------


## Confuzzled

> & here's the issue with DCEU Stans the DCEU is in trouble and they act like 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of looking at the real issues of the DCEU which is the worse thing one can do is bury their head but no it will be it's the critics and rotten tomatoes, or it's the "Not Muh Superman Crowd's fault" well at least they care enough to actually say there is a problem. Or it's the MCU films aren't that good except they are good not amazing but good they're not technical messes like many of the DCEU which were choppy messes and more importantly they are critical and financial hits while the DCEU since BvS has made less and less with each domestic opening weekend. 
> 
> Should the DCEU be like the MCU? No it should be it's own thing but it's barely keeping it's head above water and needs to be fixed and soon or it will be dropped because the WB isn't a charity and aren't doing this to break even or make miniscule profits they want the big money and unlike Marvel Studios they have other films not DC related to fall back on and move forward with.


So instead of being positive for the future, whining a lot about the DCEU on online forums will save it?  :Confused:  And how were Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman supposed to make more than BvS (first time Batman and Superman appeared in a movie together) on opening weekend anyway? Speaking of domestic, how do you spin Wonder Woman making more than BvS and every non-Avengers MCU film as a disappointment again?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It wasn't just some ok film there were serious issues and more coming out everyday and most of the issues go back to the WB.
> 
> Suicide Squad made money but was a mess and they even had a trailer house a freaking trailer house make cuts.
> 
> The Studio wanted rid of Snyder from almost the start of Justice League but also didn't want to halt production which we now know some of that had it do with protecting their own bonuses. 
> 
> They had various edits of the film cutting key scenes out.
> 
> The film had bad CGI and yes it was bad.
> ...


Pretty much this. I hope they have really thought through and considered their plans for the future. I really, really wish that Geoff Johns and Jon Berg are able to save the day. But people do need to admit that, up until now, the DCEU has been riddled with problem. And unfortunately, I cant help but think that Snyders career might suffer because of this as well. Poor guy.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Would MoS be more interesting if the leaders of the Kryptonian invasion were not Zod, but Jor El and Lara?

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## Jokerz79

> So instead of being positive for the future, whining a lot about the DCEU on online forums will save it?  And how were Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman supposed to make more than BvS (first time Batman and Superman appeared in a movie together) on opening weekend anyway? Speaking of domestic, how do you spin Wonder Woman making more than BvS and every non-Avengers MCU film as a disappointment again?


The interesting part is you cut off the actual part of my quote which listed the real issues the DCEU has and as long as people want to find scapegoats and not address them the DCEU will either be dropped or rebooted and that in itself is an issue.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Would MoS be more interesting if the leaders of the Kryptonian invasion were not Zod, but Jor El and Lara?


No, definitely not. I don’t think anybody really had an issue with Zod himself. In fact, I thought Michael Shannon was a great Zod. But I think people were more frustrated as to how the final fight between him and Superman went down.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> The mistake DC made here is instead of trying to beat Marvel at their own game, they should have continued to carve their own niche. Snyder should have been allowed to do his Supes trilogy as he originally intended,


Nope. That wouldn't  have worked either. The mistake was always keeping Snyder on  as director after MOS and allowing him to be  the main architect of the universe; creating movies that polarized  audiences and critics alike.    I'd  argue that Warner's approach  of going the opposite Marvel route and eschewing solo movies in favor team-ups was a  smart move as there's little need for solo Batman and Superman movies prior to Justice League as those characters, unlike most Marvel characters sans Spider-Man, are already well-known to the masses. Marvel's approach worked because it was the only approach that could work since they were stuck with mostly B-list characters that weren't all that known so doing solo movies prior  to Avengers was necessary in order to foster interest in those characters.  

Look, if BvS was better made, let's say if great director who knew who to tell a story that made over a billion dollars? 

If Snyder had been had supposedly been left to do his Superman trilogy it wouldn't make a lick of difference at all if all three of those movies were as polarizing, if not disdained as BvS was and continues to  be.   Warners approach was fine, the creatives involved(Snyder, Goyer,) were not and needed to go sooner.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> No, definitely not. I don’t think anybody really had an issue with Zod himself. In fact, I thought Michael Shannon was a great Zod. But I think people were more frustrated as to how the final fight between him and Superman went down.


Zod was great, I just think would it be more interesting if Superman got to face his own parents.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Zod was great, I just think would it be more interesting if Superman got to face his own parents.


Why? Unless they were being mind-controlled, they would never hurt their own son so it wouldn't be much of an altercation. And if they are being mind controlled, then they aren't even the villains anyway.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The interesting part is you cut off the actual part of my quote which listed the real issues the DCEU has and as long as people want to find scapegoats and not address them the DCEU will either be dropped or rebooted and that in itself is an issue.


So again, a bunch of random forum posters on random forums will lead to the DCEU being canned or rebooted? I still don't get the logic.  :Confused:

----------


## Soubhagya

> So instead of being positive for the future, whining a lot about the DCEU on online forums will save it?  And how were Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman supposed to make more than BvS (first time Batman and Superman appeared in a movie together) on opening weekend anyway? Speaking of domestic, how do you spin Wonder Woman making more than BvS and every non-Avengers MCU film as a disappointment again?


Alright. Let me put it this way. I see the_ opening weekend numbers as indicating interest_. After that the quality of the film is what does it.

WW was a solo film. 103 million opening is pretty good. Had BvS and SS been better, it would have earned more in opening. MoS got 116 million three years ago. The first film of a series.

After people watched the film, it was loved by them. Its Cinemascore is A. Better then MoS and as good as Winter Soldier. It was a crowd pleaser. It was especially loved because women and girls got a superhero film of their own. And people just kept coming back. When you enjoy the film, it gets excellent word of mouth. They recommend it to families, friends. Tell them to go and they try to catch it again and again. Thus, WW did excellently inspite of competition. Its a really good film enjoyable by everyone. Fans, critics, and people in general.

SS opened to 133 million. Till then the only film seen as terrible by people was BvS (B Cinemascore and poor legs). It had a fantastic marketing campaign. You had Joker, Batman, Will Smith and ads were all pointing to a brilliant film with a new idea. It did not have as good legs as WW. Neither was it poor as BvS. It was just as good as MoS as far as legs are concerned with far too less competition. SS was the last big film of the summer. Its financial performance is good. But its not excellent regardless of the final numbers.

(MoS had 291/116 = 2.5X. A- Cinemascore). 

(Suicide Squad had 325/133X = 2.44, B+ Cinemascore).

This weekend multiplier (Lifetime Gross/ Opening Weekend Gross) is really important. _It shows how much was it liked by the people in general_ and it indicates an interest to see a sequel.

I am simply pointing numbers and data. Everything points that DCEU is sinking. A JL film shall talk about whether it shall earn 2 billion or not. Not about breaking even. A film with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman shall not earn less then the first Guardians of The Galaxy in the opening weekend. I love the DCEU. But there is no way to give a positive spin to the available information. Its a bitter pill to swallow.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Zod was great, I just think would it be more interesting if Superman got to face his own parents.


I think if they had turned Jor El and Lara into villains when in most iterations, they’ve always been benevolent people, then the audience would've been justifiably outraged.

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## manofsteel1979

> The interesting part is you cut off the actual part of my quote which listed the real issues the DCEU has and as long as people want to find scapegoats and not address them the DCEU will either be dropped or rebooted and that in itself is an issue.


It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim? 

If BvS was box office and franchise poison , then SS should have outright flopped and WW should have merely  done what the studio anticipated if not underperformed. 

Maybe there are other factors at work with JL failing besides BvS? All I'm saying is that yes, BvS is a factor here, but there are so many others at work here, including out of control budgets, no commitment towards a direction once set, rushing out a movie that wasn't finished in a competitive  slot instead of taking their time and  delivering a finished product for the sake of executive bonuses. Many others as well.

 It's  not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial  and slightly underperforming to  where we are with JL.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I think if they had turned Jor El and Lara into villains when in most iterations, they’ve always been benevolent people, then the audience would've been justifiably outraged.


Agreed. If you think having Supes kill Zod was sacrilege, having an alive Jor and Lara be Villains would have been Jason White levels of franchise poisoning. 

What I would have liked if maybe Faora or Jax-Ur be the main antagonist of MOS,and save Zod and his army and the Black Zero stuff for an MOS 3 or Even as the main opponents of Justice League.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Why? Unless they were being mind-controlled, they would never hurt their own son so it wouldn't be much of an altercation. And if they are being mind controlled, then they aren't even the villains anyway.


But they would want to let Krypton reborn rather than go extinct, so it's going to be a lot of struggle.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim? 
> 
> It's not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial  towards where we are with JL.


It’s not just BvS, it was the steady stream of polarizing or just straight up bad movies. We had three movies in a row that failed to get the critics to give them the thumbs up before Wonder Woman, which itself was aided by the critical praise. So, I think it’s basically just that the audience has gotten to the point where they’re fed up with it and will refuse to see DC movies unless they know FOR CERTAIN that they’re not wasting their money anymore.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> But they would want to let Krypton reborn rather than go extinct, so it's going to be a lot of struggle.


They already prevented the extinction of their species...he's called Kal-El, and they launched him away from the planet's destruction  :Smile:

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## Slowpokeking

> They already prevented the extinction of their species...he's called Kal-El, and they launched him away from the planet's destruction


No, Kal El is pretty much human other than his biological feature, that is extinction.

----------


## Soubhagya

> It’s not just BvS, it was the steady stream of polarizing or just straight up bad movies. We had three movies in a row that failed to get the critics to give them the thumbs up before Wonder Woman, which itself was aided by the critical praise. So, I think it’s basically just that the audience has gotten to the point where they’re fed up with it and will refuse to see DC movies unless they know FOR CERTAIN that they’re not wasting their money anymore.


Yes the series of films. I agree with you. Its sad too. I like MoS. I love WW and JL. I kinda like BvS. I love the cast. But its just not working.

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## Clark_Kent

> No, Kal El is pretty much human other than his biological feature, that is extinction.


Stopped at "pretty much human" and won't bother to debate it further lol

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Stopped at "pretty much human" and won't bother to debate it further lol


He even said "Krypton had its chance!"

----------


## Ascended

> No, Kal El is pretty much human other than his biological feature, that is extinction.


I think this is a selective understanding of the character. 

Just because Cav-El doesn't identify strongly with his Kryptonian heritage doesn't mean he's "pretty much" human (or more accurately, an "earth man"). MoS establishes that from a very young age Clark knew he wasn't really a part of the world. He has human (American) values and he emotes like a human, but that doesn't make him human nor does it mean he fully sees himself as one.

I think that's the angle for this Superman; he's not really Kryptonian in that he doesn't know much about his birthworld and therefore can't connect with it, but he also doesn't connect with humanity. He's something unique, trapped between two cultures he doesn't really feel included with.

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## manofsteel1979

> It’s not just BvS, it was the steady stream of polarizing or just straight up bad movies. We had three movies in a row that failed to get the critics to give them the thumbs up before Wonder Woman, which itself was aided by the critical praise. So, I think it’s basically just that the audience has gotten to the point where they’re fed up with it and will refuse to see DC movies unless they know FOR CERTAIN that they’re not wasting their money anymore.


It's a mistake looking at the opening weekends of these movies and attributing a trend unless you hold Marvel's Movies to the Same standards. Not every MCU film opens bigger than the last. Some open larger than others. There was no way a suicide squad film was going to beat the opening weekend of a Batman and Superman movie, and no way a Wonder Woman movie by herself was going to trend above the others. Ultimately, both did huge box office and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Reviews WORSE than BvS didn't hurt the box office legs of SS  and may have even out grossed BVS had it had a run in China, and good reviews and good will towards Gal and WW caused it to be the biggest domestic grosser of the DCEU so far. 



JL, yes is problematic. It is an indication something is going wrong on some level. no one denies it. However to pin it all on Zack Snyder and Zack Snyder only as the main and in some cases sole reason sited as the rationale why JL is in trouble is gross oversimplification with an agenda. That agenda is to try and " prove" the purely objective opinion MOS and BvS are horrible abomination that no " true" fan of these characters should like or enjoy  is somehow fact. It isn't.

With some here and elsewhere it's not about having an honest discussion about what went wrong with the DCEU and JL specifically,but more about being proved right about hating MOS back in 2013, and attempting to condemn anyone who dare not share the same hatred of MOS and BvS as merely Snyder appologists who don't and shouldn't have their opinions taken seriously. And if course many use that opportunity to rant AGAIN about Superman being a cold blooded alien murderer who should smile and wink more. Or that Costner's Pa Kent is an amoral monster and child abuser. Or something.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It's a mistake looking at the opening weekends of these movies and attributing a trend unless you hold Marvel's Movies to the Same standards. Not every MCU film opens bigger than the last. Some open larger than others. There was no way a suicide squad film was going to beat the opening weekend of a Batman and Superman movie, and no way a Wonder Woman movie by herself was going to trend above the others. Ultimately, both did huge box office and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Reviews WORSE than BvS didn't hurt the box office legs of SS  and may have even out grossed BVS had it had a run in China, and good reviews and good will towards Gal and WW caused it to be the biggest domestic grosser of the DCEU so far. 
> 
> 
> 
> JL, yes is problematic. It is an indication something is going wrong on some level. no one denies it. However to pin it all on Zack Snyder and Zack Snyder only as the main and in some cases sole reason sited as the rationale why JL is in trouble is gross oversimplification with an agenda. That agenda is to try and " prove" the purely objective opinion MOS and BvS are horrible abomination that no " true" fan of these characters should like or enjoy  is somehow fact. It isn't.
> 
> *With some here and elsewhere it's not about having an honest discussion about what went wrong with the DCEU and JL specifically,but more about being proved right about hating MOS back in 2013, and attempting to condemn anyone who dare not share the same hatred of MOS and BvS as merely Snyder appologists who don't and shouldn't have their opinions taken seriously. And if course many use that opportunity to rant AGAIN about Superman being a cold blooded alien murderer who should smile and wink more. Or that Costner's Pa Kent is an amoral monster and child abuser. Or something.*


Wonderfully put, and actually you've put in words what I have had in my head for years. In fact, it's the main reason I don't post a lot...you can only be called a "Snyder fanboy" so many times before you're done with the conversation. I dip back into it occasionally, and often regret it lol  It's a shame the general response to your post will begin with "No,", or some variation of that.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I think this is a selective understanding of the character. 
> 
> Just because Cav-El doesn't identify strongly with his Kryptonian heritage doesn't mean he's "pretty much" human (or more accurately, an "earth man"). MoS establishes that from a very young age Clark knew he wasn't really a part of the world. He has human (American) values and he emotes like a human, but that doesn't make him human nor does it mean he fully sees himself as one.
> 
> I think that's the angle for this Superman; he's not really Kryptonian in that he doesn't know much about his birthworld and therefore can't connect with it, but he also doesn't connect with humanity. He's something unique, trapped between two cultures he doesn't really feel included with.


He was raised by human, stand on human's side, influenced very little by Kryptonian culture. Biologically he is Kryptonian but that's all. The Kryptonian civilization and culture is gone.

I fully understand Kal El, but not much on Jor EL. Kryptonians might have flaws but the first thing is to keep the civilization to live on then think about change. Zod and his crew were more understandable.

Ironically, BVS further proved the "we can live together with them" is garbage. Even Superman was feared and hated by so many ppl. Think about REAL Kryptonians.

----------


## Pinsir

> Um, yes you did. Plenty. Superman I and II. Blade. Sam Raimi and Marc Webb Spider-Man. Thomas Jane's Punisher. The X-Men (well Wolverine was pretty popular any way). The Nolan Trilogy. The MCU didn't invent this.


Or you could look at a franchise like Indiana Jones, which has a good main character and supporting cast, but the villains are more caricatures than fleshed out characters.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Wonderfully put, and actually you've put in words what I have had in my head for years. In fact, it's the main reason I don't post a lot...you can only be called a "Snyder fanboy" so many times before you're done with the conversation. I dip back into it occasionally, and often regret it lol  It's a shame the general response to your post will begin with "No,", or some variation of that.


I just think now as it was then that the vitriolic reaction to MOS and by extension BvS was way overblown and overly dramatic and frankly silly. 

I don't know if you were here on the old boards , but around the time MOS came  out a poster on here who came on here and claimed that MOS tramatized  his children and ruined Superman forever and they burned all of their  Superman merchandise and threw away all of their comics because of it. It later was proven that he wasnt a dad at all and in fact was forced to admit he was barely 18. In other words, a troll who felt that he had to make up a story to give his own personal hatred more credibility. 

 There was also a guy who used to type manefesto sized posts about how Snyder and Goyer were evil assholes and bitched about Henry being British, about Any having red hair, called the suit Cavill wore " a lizard skin suit" and posted horrible photoshops to prove how much better Cavill would look in a Lycra spandex costume with trunks, but only proved he was inept at cutting and pasting Henry's head on Chris Reeve's body....And that was BEFORE MOS even opened! Yes it was insane. There were people who hated these films before they came out.

 In my mind , if you don't like something, well, no one is making you watch it again. You say to yourself, " well, that sucked. I Hope the next one is better " And move on with your life. If someone liked what I didn't...Well...Good on them. I can find other things I like better and leave them to it. I don't see the point in dedicating time to rant endlessly about things they hate and belittling those that don't hate these same things. Life is too short devoting so much energy to hate and doing your damnedest to make sure everyone agrees with you.

I'm only shocked that four years later, people still can't get past MOS. These discussions somehow always come back to the same repetitive circle jerking of " omg he killed Zod! Omg he didn't smile enough! Omg why couldn't he be more like Reeve! Omg, Kevin Costner said Maybe! GASP!  " lather, rinse, repeat.

----------


## Carabas

> I'm only shocked that four years later, people still can't get past MOS. These discussions somehow always come back to the same repetitive circle jerking of " omg he killed Zod! Omg he didn't smile enough! Omg why couldn't he be more like Reeve! Omg, Kevin Costner said Maybe! GASP!  " Rinse, lather, repeat.


Those are just two parts of the larger problem with Man Of Steel. It's a grimdark Superman deconstruction (and there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself) that they somehow tried to pass off not just as mainstream but as what they were going to beat one of the most crowd-pleasing film franchises in history with.

It's an overly expensive niche art movie with some decidedly dodgy writing, and they expected it to beat Marvel just because it had Superman in it.

And then they made a sequel that was worse. And after that they still persisted and kept the same creative people for Justice League.

Your big franchise that is going to clean the MCU's lock should not have the same tone as Game Of thrones minus the nudity. That's never going to work.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Those are just two parts of the larger problem with Man Of Steel. It's a grimdark Superman deconstruction (and there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself) that they somehow tried to pass off not just as mainstream but as what they were going to beat one of the most crowd-pleasing film franchises in history with.
> 
> It's an overly expensive niche art movie with some decidedly dodgy writing, and they expected it to beat Marvel just because it had Superman in it.
> 
> And then they made a sequel that was worse. And after that they still persisted and kept the same creative people for Justice League.
> 
> Your big franchise that is going to clean the MCU's lock should not have the same tone as Game Of thrones minus the nudity. That's never going to work.


I don't think the intention of MOS was to " clean Marvel's Clock, because when MOS was put into production, the MCU wasn't really the MCU. It was still a few solo Superhero movies of varying financial success ( Iron Man was the only bonafide hit the others did ok but Hulk underperformed).with the game plan leading to an Avengers Movie that was only in pre production.. The intention was to relaunch Superman in a modern context and a bid to unwed the character from the Salkind model. There wasn't an attempt to do an extended DC universe until after MOS was done and out in theaters. MOS was just about Superman. They were still talking about a self contained Justice League movie during that time. The plan changed during preproduction on what started as MOS 2 and morphed into BvS.

----------


## Thomas Crown

"Justice League" Cinematographer: Superman Black Suit Scenes Were Filmed

Goddammit, Warner Bros! GODDAMMIT!

----------


## Agent Z

> Those are just two parts of the larger problem with Man Of Steel. It's a grimdark Superman deconstruction (and there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself) that they somehow tried to pass off not just as mainstream but as what they were going to beat one of the most crowd-pleasing film franchises in history with.
> 
> It's an overly expensive niche art movie with some decidedly dodgy writing, and they expected it to beat Marvel just because it had Superman in it.
> 
> And then they made a sequel that was worse. And after that they still persisted and kept the same creative people for Justice League.
> 
> Your big franchise that is going to clean the MCU's lock should not have the same tone as Game Of thrones minus the nudity. That's never going to work.


I must have missed the version of Man of Steel with rampant incest, rape, xenophobia (that wasn't from the villains), and fear of the cold. Seriously, grimdark is one of those words that's been tossed about so much on the net that it's pretty much lost all meaning. MoS isn't even a deconstruction and is more of a reconstruction. Sure it removes the typical mastabatury shilling Superman typically gets but it does emphasise his heroic nature rather than resting him as a power fantasy.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's a mistake looking at the opening weekends of these movies and attributing a trend unless you hold Marvel's Movies to the Same standards. Not every MCU film opens bigger than the last. Some open larger than others. There was no way a suicide squad film was going to beat the opening weekend of a Batman and Superman movie, and no way a Wonder Woman movie by herself was going to trend above the others. Ultimately, both did huge box office and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Reviews WORSE than BvS didn't hurt the box office legs of SS  and may have even out grossed BVS had it had a run in China, and good reviews and good will towards Gal and WW caused it to be the biggest domestic grosser of the DCEU so far. 
> 
> 
> 
> JL, yes is problematic. It is an indication something is going wrong on some level. no one denies it. However to pin it all on Zack Snyder and Zack Snyder only as the main and in some cases sole reason sited as the rationale why JL is in trouble is gross oversimplification with an agenda. That agenda is to try and " prove" the purely objective opinion MOS and BvS are horrible abomination that no " true" fan of these characters should like or enjoy  is somehow fact. It isn't.
> 
> With some here and elsewhere it's not about having an honest discussion about what went wrong with the DCEU and JL specifically,but more about being proved right about hating MOS back in 2013, and attempting to condemn anyone who dare not share the same hatred of MOS and BvS as merely Snyder appologists who don't and shouldn't have their opinions taken seriously. And if course many use that opportunity to rant AGAIN about Superman being a cold blooded alien murderer who should smile and wink more. Or that Costner's Pa Kent is an amoral monster and child abuser. Or something.


Yes, not all Marvel movies open bigger than the last obviously, but none are really the crushing disappointments that JL was obviously. That’s largely because Marvel Studios has built up goodwill with the moviegoing audience while DC has yet to do so.

And nobody is blaming ONLY Snyder. We all recognize that there were other issues. But, still, there were a lot of issues with the creative decisions that went into the movies initially. When people talk about the Ultimate Edition, a lot of people will tell you that it is better than what we got in theaters, but that it’s still a bad movie. Ignoring that part of what dragged these movies down were things that had nothing to do with studio meddling is not doing anybody any favors.

People just didn’t respond to this vision of the DC universe. Casting an older, DKR style Batman was a huge mistake because DKR is not really reflective of who Batman is as a character or his core values. In DKR, Batman is much more aggressive because he’s living in a pretty bleak reality, where crime and gangs have become rampant and Orwellian fears are becoming a reality. That’s why he has no qualms of beating people within an inch of their lives and using lethal force. However, that’s completely out of place in an environment where everything is otherwise, well, fine. Regular Batman wouldn’t act that way. Regular Batman cares about protecting life and will avoid killing (even as collateral damage) as long as it’s feasible. DCEU Batman, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to care and there are several instances where he just brazenly kills or maims people. Yes, Affleck sure does look sweet in that Batsuit kicking butt in BvS, but anybody who has a whole sequence of Batman shooting people with an M16 doesn’t really get Batman. That wasn’t a decision made by the studio. In other words, DCEU and DKR Batman are antiheroes, whereas the everyday viewer wanted a hero.

Now, Wonder Woman was different. People responded to it because it showed Diana in all her heroic glory. Hopefully, future movies folllow that pattern.

People want their superheroes to act like, well, heroes. To be likeable. And yes, part of that is having them be human, but not having them be mopey and utterly broken. Batman shouldn’t act more like the Punisher than he does his regular self from the comics. Superman shouldn’t be cold and distant. That is just not true to the characters.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> "Justice League" Cinematographer: Superman Black Suit Scenes Were Filmed
> 
> Goddammit, Warner Bros! GODDAMMIT!


Fgs. Screw WB. Absolutely to hell. Everyday something keeps popping bloody up. I knew there was more to Superman than we got. 

WB need to do one. Doubt we're gonna get the Snyder cut unfortunately. Had to stomach really is. A better film exists and we can't see it. Bah.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Fgs. Screw WB. Absolutely to hell. Everyday something keeps popping bloody up. I knew there was more to Superman than we got. 
> 
> WB need to do one. Doubt we're gonna get the Snyder cut unfortunately. Had to stomach really is. A better film exists and we can't see it. Bah.


As long as we get a healthy deleted scene section at the very least, I'll be happy. The fan edits will be great, even if they are not ideal.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> As long as we get a healthy deleted scene section at the very least, I'll be happy. The fan edits will be great, even if they are not ideal.


True that's better than nothing. Hell fans will probably edit the film better than a professional studio!!

----------


## manofsteel1979

> "Justice League" Cinematographer: Superman Black Suit Scenes Were Filmed
> 
> Goddammit, Warner Bros! GODDAMMIT!


WB is why we can't have nice things. I just hope those scenes are on the Blu-ray.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> True that's better than nothing. Hell fans will probably edit the film better than a professional studio!!


Hell my favorite cut of Superman 2 is a fan edit.

----------


## Carabas

> I don't think the intention of MOS was to " clean Marvel's Clock, because when MOS was put into production, the MCU wasn't really the MCU. It was still a few solo Superhero movies of varying financial success ( Iron Man was the only bonafide hit the others did ok but Hulk underperformed).with the game plan leading to an Avengers Movie that was only in pre production.. The intention was to relaunch Superman in a modern context and a bid to unwed the character from the Salkind model. There wasn't an attempt to do an extended DC universe until after MOS was done and out in theaters. MOS was just about Superman. They were still talking about a self contained Justice League movie during that time. The plan changed during preproduction on what started as MOS 2 and morphed into BvS.


Regardless of how it was conceived of initially, by the time it came out, after Avengers, WB had definitely gotten it into their heads that it was what I said it was.

----------


## Carabas

> I must have missed the version of Man of Steel with rampant incest, rape, xenophobia (that wasn't from the villains), and fear of the cold. Seriously, grimdark is one of those words that's been tossed about so much on the net that it's pretty much lost all meaning. MoS isn't even a deconstruction and is more of a reconstruction. Sure it removes the typical mastabatury shilling Superman typically gets but it does emphasise his heroic nature rather than resting him as a power fantasy.


Tone =/= content.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> WB is why we can't have nice things. I just hope those scenes are on the Blu-ray.


I think an extended cut of any kind, Snyder or Whedon, mostly depends on when the 2-hour mandate came down. I've seen people say it was mandated to be 2 hours from the very start (this doesn't sound possible to me, if Zack was told to make it only 2 hours then no way he'd shoot a 3-hour movie), and others say the mandate came in the month or two leading to release. I don't know that we'll ever see a finished, or even semi-finished, Snyder Cut...but if the film Whedon wrapped up was 2hrs 45 minutes before the mandate, I think odds are good we will get that particular cut. That would mean effects & music are in place & they just have to slap it on a disc. This wouldn't be the Snyder Cut many of us want, but an extended version of what we did get is still an improvement. 

The film has its fans. Not as many as WB would like it to have, but they are there. If they buy up the Bluray/4K extended versions, that's a decent little chunk of change. If an extended cut requires any VFX work though, we can prob forget it and just look forward to a deleted scenes menu (I'll settle for this, and even some scenes without finished effects can still be completed on a standard PC). 

As for the Black Suit....what does everyone think? The initial return near the monument was shot by Snyder, so no black suit there. Do you guys think he wore it in the final battle, before switching back to blue for the last shot of the film (also by Snyder)? Or do you think it appeared in the vision of the Knightmare Future given to him by Steppenwolf, wherein he possibly saw himself as a black suited dictator? I think this second scenario is the most likely, myself.

----------


## Robotman

> "Justice League" Cinematographer: Superman Black Suit Scenes Were Filmed
> 
> Goddammit, Warner Bros! GODDAMMIT!


This may have been during the cut scene in which Steppenwolf tries to temp Superman by showing him a vision of Darkseid’s power. Maybe Supes was his pawn in the vision and wore the black suit. 

SOOOO PISSED OFF THAT WB CUT DARKSEID FROM THE FILM!!!!

----------


## Troian

Even if Warner Bros wasn't doing all that messing around no one should have expected the general audience to love Zack's films like Party Jenkins Wonder Woman or the 2012 Avengers was. He has a consistent, polarizing track record. 

I highly doubt if Zack was able to do his complete 2 and a half hour+ plus JL cut without any studio interference and WB Getting greedy, that it would have beaten WW. His critical and financial track record speaks for itself. His movies aren't even known for being super leggy which is a sign that the general audience hated the film or all the fans rushed to see it opening weekend. 

4 and a half years later ppl still talk about MoS and not always in a positive light just shows how polarizing the movie truly was. And it obviously wasn't just critics who thought so. 

Anyways, WBs should have had a plan. They just kept on throwing movies out and making promises and getting greedy. Again, BvS tarnished JL nothing else. The trailers had that ZS feel and ppl knew it was made by the same guy who did BvS so they were gonna wait till reviews and were let down. WW and SS trailers felt different, unrelated to BvS/JL and they were helmed by different ppl which is why there was hype. 

Anyways, JL may not even pass Logan dom, which was rated r and had no 3d. Its dropping fast and wom is not good. Damn.

----------


## Frontier

> "Justice League" Cinematographer: Superman Black Suit Scenes Were Filmed
> 
> Goddammit, Warner Bros! GODDAMMIT!


Not surprised with how much teasing the black suit was given in the lead-up to the movie.

----------


## Clark_Kent

WB mulling over releasing JL in a "Superman Trilogy" set, complete with extended cut of the theatrical version of Justice League. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/...29653621432321

----------


## Jokerz79

> It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim? 
> 
> If BvS was box office and franchise poison , then SS should have outright flopped and WW should have merely  done what the studio anticipated if not underperformed. 
> 
> Maybe there are other factors at work with JL failing besides BvS? All I'm saying is that yes, BvS is a factor here, but there are so many others at work here, including out of control budgets, no commitment towards a direction once set, rushing out a movie that wasn't finished in a competitive  slot instead of taking their time and  delivering a finished product for the sake of executive bonuses. Many others as well.
> 
>  It's  not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial  and slightly underperforming to  where we are with JL.


Suicide Squad for many was a fun film with characters who were blank slates and they just went in and enjoyed the ride and it did hurt that Harley Quinn became a breakout star of the film tot he point there are 4 films for her in various forms of development.

Wonder Woman was an actual good film and was particularly praised for being so separate and different than BvS and oh it was a cultural event to see a female superhero as the lead in a good film and not the garbage that was Supergirl, Tank Girl, Catwoman, or Elektra.

Also frankly they didn't have Snyder the General Audience rejected his Superman and Batman. The most praise Justice League gotten was how the characters of Superman and Batman seemed improved in the film compared to the previous Snyder films and many credit that too the changes made to the film after Snyder left production.

Now do I think the Studio should had interfered with Snyder's films? No they choose him and should had stuck with his vision I do believe the BvS Ultimate Cut is a good film while the Theatrical Cut was a complete mess. I also think many of the elements he filmed would had made Justice League better. But I also think his take on the characters was wrong and the audience seemed to agree.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*'Shazam!' Casts 'It' Star Jack Dylan Grazer as Freddy Freeman*




> It looks like Shazam! has just found its newest cast member.
> 
> Jack Dylan Grazer is reportedly joining New Line's DC Comics film, according to Deadline. Grazer will play Freddy Freeman, who is described as the "best friend" of Billy Batson (Asher Angel) and "the only person who knows the truth" about Billy's adult alter-ego.


Source

----------


## Frontier

> *'Shazam!' Casts 'It' Star Jack Dylan Grazer as Freddy Freeman*
> 
> 
> 
> Source


I guess that just leaves Mary of the core Marvels, as well as the rest of Billy's adopted siblings...

----------


## Bossace

> WB mulling over releasing JL in a "Superman Trilogy" set, complete with extended cut of the theatrical version of Justice League. 
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/...29653621432321


Is this the only way to get the extended cut? This kinda frustrates me if so, I already own Mos and BVS UE both digitally. I assume it’ll be nice and expensive since it’s 3 movies so if this the only way to get the extended cut that’s pretty damn greedy, especially since it’s just the ext ended theaterical cut and not the Snyder one. But I guess they are desperate to make money off this movie any way possible after this.

----------


## Carabas

> Is this the only way to get the extended cut? This kinda frustrates me if so, I already own Mos and BVS UE both digitally. I assume it’ll be nice and expensive since it’s 3 movies so if this the only way to get the extended cut that’s pretty damn greedy, especially since it’s just the ext ended theaterical cut and not the Snyder one. But I guess they are desperate to make money off this movie any way possible after this.


These sort of shenanigans is what torrents are for.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Is this the only way to get the extended cut? This kinda frustrates me if so, I already own Mos and BVS UE both digitally. I assume it’ll be nice and expensive since it’s 3 movies so if this the only way to get the extended cut that’s pretty damn greedy, especially since it’s just the ext ended theaterical cut and not the Snyder one. But I guess they are desperate to make money off this movie any way possible after this.


No, if they did release a trilogy package they will still sell the extended version seperately. You'll be fine. The only "greedy" bit will be when they release MoS & BvS with new cover art, because a lot of collectors enjoy having every cover.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Also, why does everyone always jump to worst-case scenarios around here? Is it part of the CBR TOS I'm not aware of? lol

I totally get asking the question, but to then follow it up in the same post with a rant about corporate greed & screwing consumers before an answer is ever provided just seems like "I want to complain about WB some more, so here I go" :P

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> No, if they did release a trilogy package they will still sell the extended version seperately. You'll be fine. The only "greedy" bit will be when they *release MoS & BvS with new cover art*, because a lot of collectors enjoy having every cover.


Heck, they've already done this - I believe Best Buy got exclusive MoS and BvS Jim Lee-illustrated steelbook editions in October.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Heck, they've already done this - I believe Best Buy got exclusive MoS and BvS Jim Lee-illustrated steelbook editions in October.


Very true, they did...along with Suicide Squad...

I bought all 3. I'm a sucker for awesome steelbooks. I should have said in my post "unless they release them with even newer art", which is definitely a possibility.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim? 
> 
> If BvS was box office and franchise poison , then SS should have outright flopped and WW should have merely  done what the studio anticipated if not underperformed. 
> 
> Maybe there are other factors at work with JL failing besides BvS? All I'm saying is that yes, BvS is a factor here, but there are so many others at work here, including out of control budgets, no commitment towards a direction once set, rushing out a movie that wasn't finished in a competitive  slot instead of taking their time and  delivering a finished product for the sake of executive bonuses. Many others as well.
> 
>  It's  not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial  and slightly underperforming to  where we are with JL.


The common denominator between BvS and JL is that they had the same director and writer.  To expect the sequel to a critically panned movie to have different results is slightly naive especially when you look at the history that particular director has with critics.  WW and Suicide Squad had different directors.  BvS didn't destroy the DCEU but it did effect JL.  WW's success is likely proof that people would have seen JL if it had less connection to BvS.  WW was in JL and more were willing to like and see her movie.  BvS set all kinds of records with declining sales.  The numbers have been posted here before and conveniently ignored by the same people who cite sales as evidence of  success.  Similar numbers have been posted showing how much its sales declined on a historical level.  Hell... general audiences liked JL more than BvS despite its flaws.  Less people saw JL because it was the sequel to BvS.  WW and Suicide Squad had primarily different actors outside of WW and the Batman cameo in addition to its different creative teams.

----------


## Agent Z

> Tone =/= content.


MoS does not have the same tone as Game of Thrones. Might as well say Deadpool has the same tone as Antman because they both have jokes

----------


## Lightning Rider

We basically already knew but...

https://fandomwire.com/2017/12/06/sc...ited-superman/

*Scenes Were Filmed with Black Suited Superman For Justice League
*

----------


## Confuzzled

Yeah, pretty obvious where Snyder had originally planned to go with it but WB understandably waved the white flag after the BvS backlash.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Tone =/= content.


Well of course, but MoS wasn't grimdark.

Compared to the Reeves movies? Sure. Compared to what we usually get? No. GotG2 is more violent than MoS, that that isn't grimdark.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> These sort of shenanigans is what torrents are for.


Lol, this is correct.

----------


## Carabas

> Well of course, but MoS wasn't grimdark.
> 
> Compared to the Reeves movies? Sure. Compared to what we usually get? No. GotG2 is more violent than MoS, that that isn't grimdark.


Come on... It has more skulls in it than Warhammer 40K.

----------


## Agent Z

> Come on... It has more skulls in it than Warhammer 40K.


The skulls appeared in one scene that barely lasted a minute.

----------


## Barbatos666

I think all parties need to move on now and look foward to the future. People who dont care for Snyder like myself have a different vision to look forward to. Snyder supporters need to accept that his vision did not click. Consistently blaming critics, Disney, Marvel lovers, Goyer, Whedon, WB, Tsujihara, Reeve Superman supporters etc is just ridiculous and frankly pathetic. From Sucker Punch and onward his track record has been awful and before that it was average. If Aquaman sucks then I'll be the first to criticize Johns and his team but Snyder got more than a fair shake.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim? 
> 
> If BvS was box office and franchise poison , then SS should have outright flopped and WW should have merely  done what the studio anticipated if not underperformed.


Neither Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were direct sequels to Batman v Superman, while Justice League is. Both also had other stuff going for it, like the first on-screen Joker since Heath Ledger/Harley Quinn's film debut with her growing in popularity among non comic readers, and the first blockbuster superhero movie led by a woman in the new era of superhero movies.

Wonder Woman is actually an example of the damage Batman v Superman did to the DCEU brand. It opened to barely over 100 million, the first ever Wonder Woman movie, the debut movie of one of the most well known superheroes ever opened to about 15 million higher than the likes of Doctor Strange.

But unlike Batman v Superman, Wonder Woman actually connected with audiences, people kept going to see it. Its opening weekend makes up just 25% of its total domestic gross, compared to Batman v Superman's 50.3%.

The difference here is that once people saw Wonder Woman and started talking about, the buzz was good and more people went to see it, along with repeat viewings. While with Batman v Superman, after people saw it on opening weekend and went on to discuss it, less people went to see it. 

Wonder Woman went on to become the highest grossing superhero origin movie. Batman v Superman went on to be the lowest grossing movie that opened to 150 million or higher.

Let me repost this to point out how disastrous Batman v Superman was when it came to kicking off an extended Universe.




> Hated might be going too far, but it definitely didn't connect with wider audiences, especially in the US.
> 
> It made most of its domestic gross (even if just barely) on opening weekend, which is extremely unusual for big blockbusters. What that means is once people actually started seeing the movie, interest went down. It is one of only two major superhero movie that made 50% of its total domestic on opening weekend. The other is Watchmen.
> 
> Out of all the movies that had an opening weekend of more than 150 million, Batman v. Superman ranks as the lowest earner in total domestic gross.
> 
> Out of all movies that opened to at least 150 million domestically, it's one of the few that weren't able to reach a billion worldwide. The others were, Catching Fire, Spider-Man 3, and the Hunger Games. Two of those aren't that popular overseas, and the other came out ten years ago, before the international markets had expanded.
> 
> There are dozens of movies that opened lower than Batman v. Superman and went to gross more domestically. There are none that opened higher than it and grossed less.
> ...


Home video sales matter very little compared to its box office performance, and its overstated how much of a success it was in home video sales. Roughly three and a half million people bought it on home video. That's a good performance, but only about a 100, 000 more people bought it than Thor: The Dark World. This year so far, about 120, 000 people have bought the movie on Blu-ray. That's less than Guardians of the Galaxy which 180, 000 people have bought so far this year.

Just think about that. A superhero movie that came out three years ago, and has already sold millions times more on home video than Batman v Superman, is still selling more than it. GOTG also sold another 240, 000 DVD copies this year, while Batman v Superman didn't make the top 100, so there's no way to tell how much it sold on DVD this year.

So Batman v Superman has done fine in home video sales, but even putting aside how the Ultimate Edition would have propped up sales, its performance is not that of a movie that connected with wider audiences. Its performance is that of a movie that opened at high numbers, but then dwindled. 




> Maybe there are other factors at work with JL failing besides BvS? All I'm saying is that yes, BvS is a factor here, but there are so many others at work here, including out of control budgets, no commitment towards a direction once set, rushing out a movie that wasn't finished in a competitive  slot instead of taking their time and  delivering a finished product for the sake of executive bonuses. Many others as well.
> 
> It's  not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial  and slightly underperforming to  where we are with JL.


There are other factors.

Projections for Justice League went down from 110+ million to 90+ million after reviews started coming in. But the biggest factor is undoubtedly Batman v Superman, given its box office performance.

It didn't kill the DCEU as a whole. Movies that will be directly associated with it, as if they are sequels, namely team movies featuring Superman and Batman have clearly taken a hit, but with the success of Wonder Woman, solo movies like the upcoming Aquman should do fine at the very least.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I think all parties need to move on now and look foward to the future. People who dont care for Snyder like myself have a different vision to look forward to. Snyder supporters need to accept that his vision did not click. Consistently blaming critics, Disney, Marvel lovers, Goyer, Whedon, WB, Tsujihara, Reeve Superman supporters etc is just ridiculous and frankly pathetic. From Sucker Punch and onward his track record has been awful and before that it was average. If Aquaman sucks then I'll be the first to criticize Johns and his team but Snyder got more than a fair shake.


What? From Sucker Punch onwards WB have been butchering his films. Not a coincidence at all. They cut SP because they wanted it more audience friendly, Watchmen was cut, BvS was cut and now his JL was utterly butchered. Again not all a coincidence. 

Blaming them is pathetic? Really? Whedon reshot scenes to add terrible jokes and ass shots of WW and Flash falling on her boobs, so blaming him according to you is ridiculous? 

Kevin ordered a manadate of 2hrs cut a tonne of stuff all so he can get paid a bonus, and blaming him is ridiculous is it? 

You make a film, I'll butcher it cut important stuff out then add unnecessary fluff and then according to your logic you can't blame me when people don't like it, because blaming me would pathetic and ridiculous.

----------


## Jokerz79

> What? From Sucker Punch onwards WB have been butchering his films. Not a coincidence at all. They cut SP because they wanted it more audience friendly, Watchmen was cut, BvS was cut and now his JL was utterly butchered. Again not all a coincidence. 
> 
> Blaming them is pathetic? Really? Whedon reshot scenes to add terrible jokes and ass shots of WW and Flash falling on her boobs, so blaming him according to you is ridiculous? 
> 
> Kevin ordered a manadate of 2hrs cut a tonne of stuff all so he can get paid a bonus, and blaming him is ridiculous is it? 
> 
> You make a film, I'll butcher it cut important stuff out then add unnecessary fluff and then according to your logic you can't blame me when people don't like it, because blaming me would pathetic and ridiculous.


Ironically though as much as I hate them butchering the films I mean they made their choice and they should stick with it for better or worse. But those added parts of levity in particularly with Superman and Batman was some of the things that got praised for Justice League.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I think all parties need to move on now


This I certainly agree with. 




> I will now proceed to not actually move on, and stoke the fire a bit instead, while still telling you that you should move on


I fixed it so it more clearly says what you were intending to say, hope that's cool  :Smile:

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> "Justice League" Cinematographer: Superman Black Suit Scenes Were Filmed
> 
> Goddammit, Warner Bros! GODDAMMIT!


This really doesn't surprise me, but damn is it disappointing that they didn't include it. Even if it was some sort of dream/mental scenario, it would have been great to see the black suit, especially considering the teasing Cavill did. 

As much as I enjoyed the theatrical cut (despite its obvious flaws), they really need to include some form of extended cut for home release. It doesn't have to be a Snyder version*, though I'd like to see that, too: I'd be more than happy with an extended cut of the theatrical/hybrid version (for lack of a better term).

And don't pull this crap where you release the theatrical only to announce the extended cut a month later, forcing people to buy the movie twice. If you're gonna have an extended cut, at least freaking announce it before releasing the theatrical cut, or, maybe, just delay the home release to where you can release the extended version in tandem/combined with the theatrical version. What a novel idea that would be.

I mean, _Logan_ released with a black and white version packed into the set from the get-go. While that's a bit different (and less labor intensive) than a re-edit, it's still the preferred way to go. Just don't do what _The Wolverine_ did and release the extended cut only on certain formats: I don't care about freaking 3D, but I had to buy that version to get the extended cut of that movie. So now I have a 3D disc that I will never use. What a load.

*I think they *should* do a Snyder cut, if only to act as an apology to Snyder for chopping up his movie after he left the project (especially given the circumstances). It may not be better (heck, it may not even be good), but he still deserves to have his version out there. _EDIT:_ I'm mainly curious to see if he paid off or mentions the Knightmare/Flash scene in BvS.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> I think all parties need to move on now and look foward to the future. People who dont care for Snyder like myself have a different vision to look forward to. Snyder supporters need to accept that his vision did not click. Consistently blaming critics, Disney, Marvel lovers, Goyer, Whedon, WB, Tsujihara, Reeve Superman supporters etc is just ridiculous and frankly pathetic. From Sucker Punch and onward his track record has been awful and before that it was average. If Aquaman sucks then I'll be the first to criticize Johns and his team but Snyder got more than a fair shake.


I agree Everyone needs to move on. That includes people who nearly always seems to somehow steer any serious and thoughtful conversations about Man of Steel back to " maybe" and BvS discussions back to " Martha" and generally using such discussion to prove how much more of a "true fan"  of Superman they are by telling us all again how much they hate Zack Snyder. 

It goes both ways.

----------


## Rincewind

> The skulls appeared in one scene that barely lasted a minute.


Yeah, what about all the scenes that didn't have the hero engulfed by a sea of skulls?

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Yeah, what about all the scenes that didn't have the hero engulfed by a sea of skulls?


The point is there shouldn't be any sort of uncomfortable imagery in a Superman movie . You can't have him be making hard choices or facing real adversity or even flirt with dark themes. Everyone should like him from the get go and accept him because he's the good guy. You know, like in 1978.that was perfect! Why mess with perfection?

You see, Superman is comfort food. He's Mac and cheese. You should never deviate and change up the formula Because people will rebel. He should be safe and comforting and safe and perfect. If he's not, he's not Superman and if you disagree, you are not a true fan and just a Snyder shill.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go stab my Snyder voodoo doll some more while I listen to " everybody hurts" by R.E.M. and relive the horrors of Man of Steel in my head.







 :Wink:

----------


## Carabas

> The skulls appeared in one scene that barely lasted a minute.


The alien bursting out of John Hurt's chest happens in just one scene that barely lasts a minute.

----------


## Agent Z

> The alien bursting out of John Hurt's chest happens in just one scene that barely lasts a minute.


And? It doesn't make your comment any less hyperbolic.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I agree Everyone needs to move on. That includes people who nearly always seems to somehow steer any serious and thoughtful conversations about Man of Steel back to " maybe" and BvS discussions back to " Martha" and generally using such discussion to prove how much more of a "true fan"  of Superman they are by telling us all again how much they hate Zack Snyder. 
> 
> It goes both ways.


IOW, nobody will move on.  :Big Grin:

----------


## manofsteel1979

> IOW, nobody will move on.


Sadly that's the case. I'll be 80 years old still on a version of the forum and someone will still be debating Kevin Costner's tonal inflection of the word " maybe" and how it proves them right that Cavill's Superman enjoyed torturing small animals to get his rocks off and how Zack Snyder, long since died, is burning in hell for the "travesty " that is Man of Steel.


Meanwhile someone will be arguing that either MOS or  BvS should replace Citizen Kane as the Greatest film of all time and that Snyder was a genius.

A fight will break out that eventually leads to the battle of the sans and result in the Ultimate disbanding of the CBR forums and the final destruction of our universe.

Have a nice day!



( 100 Internet dollars to anyone who gets that reference...)

----------


## Barbatos666

> This I certainly agree with. 
> 
> 
> 
> I fixed it so it more clearly says what you were intending to say, hope that's cool


I clearly stated that both parties need to move on.

----------


## Johnny



----------


## Barbatos666

> What? From Sucker Punch onwards WB have been butchering his films. Not a coincidence at all. They cut SP because they wanted it more audience friendly, Watchmen was cut, BvS was cut and now his JL was utterly butchered. Again not all a coincidence. 
> 
> Blaming them is pathetic? Really? Whedon reshot scenes to add terrible jokes and ass shots of WW and Flash falling on her boobs, so blaming him according to you is ridiculous? 
> 
> Kevin ordered a manadate of 2hrs cut a tonne of stuff all so he can get paid a bonus, and blaming him is ridiculous is it? 
> 
> You make a film, I'll butcher it cut important stuff out then add unnecessary fluff and then according to your logic you can't blame me when people don't like it, because blaming me would pathetic and ridiculous.


WB has also been hiring him so it goes both ways. I dont care for Whedon so you can diss on him all you want but bottomline is that if Snyder felt he wasn't getting a fair all the way back to Sucker Punch then he shouldn't have signed on for DCEU. Besides missing scenes are the least of Snyder films problems. Significant chunks of the audiences find them boring and others dont accept his interpretations of certain DC characters. That has nothing to do with cuts. My loyalty is to DC characters not one director who failed to succeed on 3 different occassions. Jenkins and Nolan have done fine under that same WB and critics.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think all parties need to move on now and look foward to the future. People who dont care for Snyder like myself have a different vision to look forward to. Snyder supporters need to accept that his vision did not click. Consistently blaming critics, Disney, Marvel lovers, Goyer, Whedon, WB, Tsujihara, Reeve Superman supporters etc is just ridiculous and frankly pathetic. From Sucker Punch and onward his track record has been awful and before that it was average. If Aquaman sucks then I'll be the first to criticize Johns and his team but Snyder got more than a fair shake.


This is absolutely true. However as you have previously seen some can't.  Which once again isn't surprising when you see the history of their behavior.  




> Ironically though as much as I hate them butchering the films I mean they made their choice and they should stick with it for better or worse. But those added parts of levity in particularly with Superman and Batman was some of the things that got praised for Justice League.


Another fact that is conveniently ignored by the valiant defenders.  




> I agree Everyone needs to move on. That includes people who nearly always seems to somehow steer any serious and thoughtful conversations about Man of Steel back to " maybe" and BvS discussions back to " Martha" and generally using such discussion to prove how much more of a "true fan"  of Superman they are by telling us all again how much they hate Zack Snyder. 
> 
> It goes both ways.


This too.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> 


This looks awesome. I can’t express how much I’m hoping this movie is good.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> WB has also been hiring him so it goes both ways. I dont care for Whedon so you can diss on him all you want but bottomline is that if Snyder felt he wasn't getting a fair all the way back to Sucker Punch then he shouldn't have signed on for DCEU. Besides missing scenes are the least of Snyder films problems. Significant chunks of the audiences find them boring and others dont accept his interpretations of certain DC characters. That has nothing to do with cuts. My loyalty is to DC characters not one director who failed to succeed on 3 different occassions. Jenkins and Nolan have done fine under that same WB and critics.


The last two sentences here have a ring of truth that can't be denied.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I clearly stated that both parties need to move on.


Be the trendsetter that goes first, then. I absolutely agree both sides need to move on, but until someone actually does it then inflammatory remarks by some posters on BOTH sides will just keep the circle of argument going.

Stating both parties should move on and then continuing with not moving on sends a weird message. If I'm incorrect, then I apologize.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Be the trendsetter that goes first, then. I absolutely agree both sides need to move on, but until someone actually does it then inflammatory remarks by some posters on BOTH sides will just keep the circle of argument going.
> 
> Stating both parties should move on and then continuing with not moving on sends a weird message. If I'm incorrect, then I apologize.


Agreed!  Beginning NOW.  GO!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> This looks awesome. I can’t express how much I’m hoping this movie is good.


Agreed. I'm hoping we really see a creative use of water, too (very excited to see what Wan meant when he said they came up with something really cool).

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Agreed!  Beginning NOW.  GO!


I didn't propose the idea, so it would be presumptuous of me to take the lead  :Smile:  I'll be a follower in this case.

----------


## Factor

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm tired of seeing Momoa shirtless.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> This looks awesome. I can’t express how much I’m hoping this movie is good.


Jason is a beast. He's the Peter David era Arthur brought to life. All that's missing is the hook!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Whoa! All hail the King, people!  :Smile: 

Wonder who the guy behind him is supposed to be?

----------


## byrd156

> Can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm tired of seeing Momoa shirtless.


I really wish he had the orange chainmail shirt.

----------


## Johnny

> I really wish he had the orange chainmail shirt.


He does, it's tattooed on his body... Damn, I'm good.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Jason is a beast. He's the Peter David era Arthur brought to life. All that's missing is the hook!


The trident kind of makes the hook hand redundant (and impractical)  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> I really wish he had the orange chainmail shirt.


The promotional art makes it look like he's going to wear some variant of it at least. 

I don't think we've really seen him in his official costume for this movie yet.

----------


## Bossace

DC Shake Up in the Works After Justice League Stumbles 

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc...202632214/amp/

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> In DKR, Batman is much more aggressive because hes living in a pretty bleak reality, where crime and gangs have become rampant and Orwellian fears are becoming a reality. Thats why he has no qualms of beating people within an inch of their lives and using lethal force.


Sorry for the off topic but I'd like to point out, that unlike in Miller's later works, in DKR Batman can never bring himself to the point of actually killing. Not against the Mutants ("Rubber bullets. Honest."), not against their leader ("Though that means crossing a line I drew for myself thirty years ago...") and not against Joker ("the moment was...perfect...and you...didn't have the nerve").

----------


## Jokerz79

> DC Shake Up in the Works After ‘Justice League’ Stumbles 
> 
> http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc...202632214/amp/


Nothing too shocking. Except that Time Warner wanted WB to drop Snyder I didn't realize it went that high up.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Sorry for the off topic but I'd like to point out, that unlike in Miller's later works, in DKR Batman can never bring himself to the point of actually killing. Not against the Mutants ("Rubber bullets. Honest."), not against their leader ("Though that means crossing a line I drew for myself thirty years ago...") and not against Joker ("the moment was...perfect...and you...didn't have the nerve").


Ah, true. Its been a while since I read that book. But he is pretty violent in DKR. Much more violent than Bruce usually is. And I guess its something to think about that, even then, he still doesn't kill people, but DCEU Batman seems to have no problem with collateral death.

----------


## Johnny

> DC Shake Up in the Works After ‘Justice League’ Stumbles 
> 
> http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc...202632214/amp/


Basically Jon Berg is out as they are looking for a replacement, while Geoff Johns stays where he's at?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Basically Jon Berg is out as they are looking for a replacement, while Geoff Johns stays where he's at?


I don't think they have enough faith in Johns to give him the Feige role.

----------


## Robotman

> 


Not a fan of this being the first image released. Noting about this says Aquaman. Plus it’s a dark image of an angry looking Momoa. Something that could have come straight from a Snyder film. 

I really think they should just hold off on any sneak peaks of this movie until the negative Justice League discussions die down a little.




> Basically Jon Berg is out as they are looking for a replacement, while Geoff Johns stays where he's at?


Also that the DC films could be integrated into the same division as WB’s other films. So more regulation. That could be both good and bad.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> DC Shake Up in the Works After ‘Justice League’ Stumbles 
> 
> http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc...202632214/amp/



DC has to suffer the consequences of its mistakes.  Failure is a stronger teacher than success.

----------


## manofsteel1979

Interesting article. He repeats himself and points too much, but he illustrates what I've been saying about Snyder and the DCEU.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh.../#6ea064f710a2

Zack Snyder didn't have as much power as many want to give him.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Nothing too shocking. Except that Time Warner wanted WB to drop Snyder I didn't realize it went that high up.


Looks like Time Warner is smart. Heads need to roll if they want to shake thing up.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Nothing too shocking. Except that Time Warner wanted WB to drop Snyder I didn't realize it went that high up.


"It's said" ie not factual.

----------


## Jokerz79

> "It's said" ie not factual.


It's also not hard to believe.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

> "It's said" ie not factual.


No it means Variety got it from a source or source(s) within the company who they are not at liberty to identify due to corporate NDAs.

----------


## Thomas Crown

In short, Warner Bros will throw Zack under the bus AGAIN while keeping all the higher-ups who screwed up his movies. Why I'm not surprised?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Lol to the people who thought this was the end of Snyder. 

MoS2 please...!

----------


## byrd156

> He does, it's tattooed on his body... Damn, I'm good.


It's orange?  :Confused:

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Lol to the people who thought this was the end of Snyder. 
> 
> MoS2 please...!



Uh...it's pretty much the end of Snyder, at least terms of handling big budget movies. Warners  will never let him direct a DC film ever again.   Variety's faulty(and laughable) speculation  that Snyder could still make another superhero film even though its reported that  Time Warner  is "frustrated that Warner Bros leaders continue to bring the director back, especially after “Batman v Superman was excoriated by critics”  is facepalm worthy.  


The question I have now is whether Snyder is  in directors jail  or not.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I don't think they have enough faith in Johns to give him the Feige role.


They're apparently pissed at him too for fighting to keep Snyder on JL. That Johns and Berg had fought to keep him on JL was the biggest news in the article to me. I really found that surprising.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> They're apparently pissed at him too for fighting to keep Snyder on JL. That Johns and Berg had fought to keep him on JL was the biggest news in the article to me. I really found that surprising.


 Yeah, it doesn't surprise me  since Geoff Johns and Snyder are friends and Johns has praised Sndyer's vision  before. He lobbied to keep his friend from being fired and whether you think he's fit for the role of being in charge of the DC films or not that's admirable.

----------


## Johnny

> They're apparently pissed at him too for fighting to keep Snyder on JL. That Johns and Berg had fought to keep him on JL was the biggest news in the article to me. I really found that surprising.


It says Time Warner are frustrated with "WB leaders" for bringing Snyder back, not with Berg or Johns. They must be referring to Tsujihara and Emmerich.

----------


## BatmanJones

> It says Time Warner are frustrated with "WB leaders" for bringing Snyder back, not with Berg or Johns. They must be referring to Tsujihara and Emmerich.


My post was based on reading the bleedingcool report on it. I know they're a rumor site and a lot here don't trust them but they're right far more often than they're wrong...

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...g-geoff-johns/

"If Variety’s report is to be believed, and we’ll note that they’re one of the most reputable outlets in the entertainment journalism business (low bar, we know), Warner Bros is pissed off at Berg and Johns for screwing up the DCEU...

"Warner Bros is reportedly particularly “frustrated” about DC’s insistence on bringing Snyder back for Justice League after his previous movies failed to live up to expectations..."

Maybe right, maybe not. I read the bleedingcool take and posted before reading the Variety article itself. The bc piece is from Jude Terror.

----------


## Buried Alien

> My post was based on reading the bleedingcool report on it. I know they're a rumor site and a lot here don't trust them but they're right far more often than they're wrong...
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...g-geoff-johns/
> 
> "If Variety’s report is to be believed, and we’ll note that they’re one of the most reputable outlets in the entertainment journalism business (low bar, we know), Warner Bros is pissed off at Berg and Johns for screwing up the DCEU...


Don't know about Berg, but maybe WB should take a good look in the mirror before pinning anything on Geoff Johns.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Tofali

Source: Variety



> Time Warner is said to be frustrated that Warner Bros. leaders continue to bring the director back, especially after “Batman v Superman” was excoriated by critics even though it made money. They are also upset that each new *DC film seems to be making less money than its predecessor*. Only “Wonder Woman,” with its optimistic heroine, managed to be both a critical and commercial success.


They should have intervened even earlier, i wonder who "continued to bring back Snyder to direct"?




> Warner Bros. believes that “Justice League” succeeded in one importantly respect: it effectively introduced Flash (a quippy speedster played by Ezra Miller) and Aquaman (the king of Atlantis, portrayed by Jason Momoa). A solo “Aquaman” is due out in 2018 and Warners is still developing a standalone Flash adventure. Going forward, Warner Bros. is planning a sequel to “Wonder Woman” that’s believed to be set in the Cold War, and New Line has greenlit a “Shazam” feature.


So the only sure things seems to be Aquaman, Flash, WW and Shazam?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> So the only sure things seems to be Aquaman, Flash, WW and Shazam?


I think that's a solid slate going forward. Each has the potential to be huge fan favorites. A second JL film in 2-3 years then seems that much stronger.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

Wan, who directed The Conjuring, on Aquaman.

Sandberg, who did the wonderful Annabelle Creation, on Shazam.

Patty Jenkins coming back for Wonder Woman 2.

That's a pretty solid line-up. As long as audiences don't get bored of superheroes, I think DC Films should be just fine as long as the higher-ups at WB leave them alone, rather than get in their way as they did repeatedly with Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad and Justice League.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Wan, who directed The Conjuring, on Aquaman.
> 
> Sandberg, who did the wonderful Annabelle Creation, on Shazam.
> 
> Patty Jenkins coming back for Wonder Woman 2.
> 
> That's a pretty solid line-up. As long as audiences don't get bored of superheroes, I think DC Films should be just fine as long as the higher-ups at WB leave them alone, rather than get in their way as they did repeatedly with Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad and Justice League.


And let's not forget Matt Reeves' Batman.

I've not seen a single thing he did after Cloverfield, but his Apes movies have garnered plenty of acclaim. Seems like a solid choice to build the next cinematic vision of Batman with.

----------


## Soubhagya

Mark Hughes on fixing the DCEU.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#2f91bc6b122c

Thoughts?

----------


## Black_Adam

I'm actually onboard with all of the changes that Variety are reporting, if Berg really oversaw the entire production process of Justice League so closely and THIS was still the best we got, he should move on.

As for Johns... I love him as a writer, he's one of DC's best IMO, but we were all expecting him to have the "Feige" effect and he hasn't I honestly think he is just out of his depth at this level. Some fresh blood and an outside perspective would do a world of good.

Flashpoint will basically be JL1.5 a soft reboot with these characters going in a new direction and Batfleck exiting. It's the best case scenario IMO keep the characters, change the rest.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> As for Johns... I love him as a writer, he's one of DC's best IMO, but we were all expecting him to have the "Feige" effect and he hasn't I honestly think he is just out of his depth at this level. Some fresh blood and an outside perspective would do a world of good.


Well, he sorta did for Wonder Woman because he found a kindred spirit of sorts in Patty Jenkins, who had a similar vision for Diana to his own. I think JL was already too far into production and Snyder's direction just...doesn't click with people.

----------


## nightw1ng

I never really thought Johns was a good fit for the DCEU based on what's on his plate.  He has his hands in basically everything and spreads himself too thin.  If you're going to helm the movies, you should step back completely from the comics.  Does he also do stuff for the TV shows and animated films?

----------


## Black_Adam

> Well, he sorta did for Wonder Woman because he found a kindred spirit of sorts in Patty Jenkins, who had a similar vision for Diana to his own. I think JL was already too far into production and Snyder's direction just...doesn't click with people.


The problem is no one even knows what Johns actually DOES with his role in the DCEU, and a lot of us were thinking (hoping) that he would be a figurehead like Feige but he quite obviously is not.

There is just no transparency with DC Films, management are constantly on the back foot and reacting instead of being proactive. A lot of these crazy rumours and negative press, DC Films have no one to blame but themselves now.

Even now we have heard nothing from anyone post JL release, given the director(s) both of them are staying silent, it would be nice if someone in management would speak up but no, the most we can hope for from Johns is a cryptic tweet or something like that.

We are 4 years into this universe and we don't even know what it is called FFS. It would almost be a comedy if it wasn't so sad for us fans.

----------


## signalman112

Hopefully BatFleck will be in at the start of FLASHPOINT with the Matt Reaves "BATMAN" coming in at the end of the movie.
Flash erases Batfleck.  :Smile:

----------


## KurtW95

How to fix the DCEU in seven easy steps:

1. Bring in directors/writers of successful and fun films who aren’t afraid or ashamed of the source material
2. Recast the Flash. Ezra is awful. Resembles Barry Allen in no way. Not appearance or personality.
3. Recast Lex Luthor.
4. Recast Batman. I like Affleck in the role, but his heart is clearly not in it.
5. Keep Leto as the Joker, but get rid of the tattoos and grills and give him his classic flair and personality. He’s capable.
6. Bring in Hal Jordan and Martian Manhunter.
7. Do it all with no canon explanation. Nobody cares if the finished product is good. Keep the actors who work, get rid of the ones who don’t, but start with a new continuity.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Hopefully BatFleck will be in at the start of FLASHPOINT with the Matt Reaves "BATMAN" coming in at the end of the movie.
> Flash erases Batfleck.


That would confuse the audiences. So, after Barry changes everything young Bruce Wayne died and did not grow up to look like Ben Affleck. After he 'restores' things the kid survived. So. now the kid shall grow up to look like Ben Affleck and not Jake Gyllenhaal.

----------


## Robotman

I think there would be good and bad things about Affleck possibly being in the Flash movie. One, I think the final scene in Flashpoint with him receiving the letter from his father would be a powerful way to end his run as Batman. But it may confuse the audience to see Affleck at the end of the film still playing Batman, after Barry has altered the timeline, only to have another actor as Batman in the Matt Reeves film. So I think it would be better if Ben appears at the beginning and then isn’t shown after that. We just have to assume any changes made to Batman after this were caused by Flashpoint.

----------


## Soubhagya

What's the problem with simple recasting? Batman looked like Michael Keaton and then Val Kilmer in the next film. If you recast just recast. Its not a problem. Audiences have seen three people as Spider-man within a decade.

But seeing Ben Affleck and another actor in the same film will be really confusing. I love Ben Affleck as Batman. But if he has to go let us just move on.

----------


## Black_Adam

With Batfleck in Flashpoint it's basically Justice League 1.5 we already had reports Gadot was in it and when Momoa was asked about fighting Wonder Woman in Flashpoint he didn't exactly dodge the question. I imagine Cyborg will have a role too to since it's the best place for him to appear with no upcoming solo.

I think you don't include the new actor in Flashpoint let Affleck have his moment and bow out, then introduce the new Batman in Reeves film.

----------


## Barbatos666

> What's the problem with simple recasting? Batman looked like Michael Keaton and then Val Kilmer in the next film. If you recast just recast. Its not a problem. Audiences have seen three people as Spider-man within a decade.
> 
> But seeing Ben Affleck and another actor in the same film will be really confusing. I love Ben Affleck as Batman. But if he has to go let us just move on.


Agreed, there's no need to bring attention to his departure in the universe itself. Oh and I just realized that if all this plays out then Affleck will become the first Batman to never star in his own film, that's messed up.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Be the trendsetter that goes first, then. I absolutely agree both sides need to move on, but until someone actually does it then inflammatory remarks by some posters on BOTH sides will just keep the circle of argument going.
> 
> Stating both parties should move on and then continuing with not moving on sends a weird message. If I'm incorrect, then I apologize.


Um  I'm more than happy to discuss the upcoming films such as Aquaman, WW 2 and the Batman. No need for apology, yeah lets just forget it.

----------


## Carabas

> How to fix the DCEU in seven easy steps:
> 
> 1. Bring in directors/writers of successful and fun films who aren’t afraid or ashamed of the source material
> 2. Recast the Flash. Ezra is awful. Resembles Barry Allen in no way. Not appearance or personality.
> 3. Recast Lex Luthor.
> 4. Recast Batman. I like Affleck in the role, but his heart is clearly not in it.
> 5. Keep Leto as the Joker, but get rid of the tattoos and grills and give him his classic flair and personality. He’s capable.
> 6. Bring in Hal Jordan and Martian Manhunter.
> 7. Do it all with no canon explanation. Nobody cares if the finished product is good. Keep the actors who work, get rid of the ones who don’t, but start with a new continuity.


0. Get rid of whomever it was that let Snyder do three movies. And get rid of the people who decide to cut out 1/3rd of a movie two months before it's supposed to come out.

----------


## Lightning Rider

A recast won’t work smoothly given Ben’s stature and a retcon of a face doesn’t make much sense and casual audiences would be confused by such a thing. It doesn’t even really make sense. Change the past, new future circumstances alter one’s life. But Bruce Wayne becoming Batman yet having a different face? How does that make any sense? 

It would need a better in-universe explanation.

----------


## Robotman

Then he shouldn’t be a part of Flashpoint. It would draw attention to the recasting. If it just happens in the standalone film fans can simply say that Flashpoint altered reality. Easy explanation. 

“A wizard did it.”

----------


## Nite-Wing

They  should just recast batman 
There doesn't need to be a damn explanation about why he looks different or any of that 
Its a movie if you have a change in actor obviously the character will look different. As long as you call him Bruce Wayne its no problem. Marvel recast War Machine and the Hulk
they'll probably recast iron man in the future too when RDJ is done 
You will run into problems when you try and explain changes through a Flashpoint film as that is just going to confuse the hell out of any GA

Also stop being reactionary, changing things to appease fanboys or what you think fans want did not help Justice League. Stop ruining movies trying to fix stuff when the pie is already baked.

Just make a good movie

----------


## manofsteel1979

> They  should just recast batman 
> There doesn't need to be a damn explanation about why he looks different or any of that 
> Its a movie if you have a change in actor obviously the character will look different. As long as you call him Bruce Wayne its no problem. Marvel recast War Machine and the Hulk
> they'll probably recast iron man in the future too when RDJ is done 
> You will run into problems when you try and explain changes through a Flashpoint film as that is just going to confuse the hell out of any GA
> 
> Also stop being reactionary, changing things to appease fanboys or what you think fans want did not help Justice League. Stop ruining movies trying to fix stuff when the pie is already baked.
> 
> Just make a good movie


This. The time to get rid of Snyder would have been after BvS. Once you made the commitment to keep him though, he should have been allowed to finish his film the way he wanted and live with the consequences. I honestly don't think JL would have fared any worse. If it still flopped, they could have just called it a self contained trilogy and made a clean break and moved on. Instead they kinda muddied the waters by trying to course correct within the movie.

----------


## Lightning Rider

The recast could work but in a shared universe scenario it hurts the brand. This isn’t a hulk standalone, this is the co-star of the two shared universe movies so far.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Imo no actor is bigger than the character they play in a superhero film.
I mean honestly RDJ may be the highest payed actor in the MCU but you can probably see another iron man inside of 5 years from now

----------


## Username taken

> What's the problem with simple recasting? Batman looked like Michael Keaton and then Val Kilmer in the next film. If you recast just recast. Its not a problem. Audiences have seen three people as Spider-man within a decade.
> 
> But seeing Ben Affleck and another actor in the same film will be really confusing. I love Ben Affleck as Batman. But if he has to go let us just move on.


Exactly.

People tend over think re-casting these days.

Another good actor will come into play Batman and people will go to the movies.

----------


## Username taken

When it's all said and done, WB have themselves to blame. It's not Johns fault at all because he came in mid-way. 

Regardless of how we felt about MOS, it was wrong to double down on the elements of that movie people found problematic (I say elements because in totality and hindsight, I think Man of Steel was a pretty good foundation for a new Superman).  Not to mention that JL was allegedly rushed by WB because some folks needed their sweet bonuses.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

So is Johns actually out? Would be classic WB to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

I do think Berg needed to go because clearly, sticking with Zack was not the right move. I'll concede that WB didn't do anybody any favors with their heavy handedness, but I still think even putting that aside it wasn't the right move. The fact that JL's budget was so massive is just icing on the "yeah you should be fired" cake.

Also, Jon Hamm gunning for Batman per CBR? Yes please. Don't care about age, Jon Hamm will be stupid handsome well into his 50s.

----------


## KurtW95

> A recast wont work smoothly given Bens stature and a retcon of a face doesnt make much sense and casual audiences would be confused by such a thing. It doesnt even really make sense. Change the past, new future circumstances alter ones life. But Bruce Wayne becoming Batman yet having a different face? How does that make any sense? 
> 
> It would need a better in-universe explanation.


Nobody cared about a canon explanation when they recast Batman twice in the 90s. Or when Marvel recast Banner and Rhodey. Or when Arrow recast Sara Lance. Or when Marvel recast Fandral.

----------


## Johnny

> So is Johns actually out? Would be classic WB to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 
> 
> I do think Berg needed to go because clearly, sticking with Zack was not the right move. I'll concede that WB didn't do anybody any favors with their heavy handedness, but I still think even putting that aside it wasn't the right move. The fact that JL's budget was so massive is just icing on the "yeah you should be fired" cake.


I don't think Johns would be ushered out. I doubt his role would change much. I think it became clear awhile ago that he might not have that much input as far as decisions were concerned, as I pointed out elsewhere. I believe in the end-game, Johns is a sort of "secret weapon" in the PR and idea department. He may help guide things as far as character structure is concerned when working with a team and throw out the history and landmarks of the DC characters, but as far as the actual DC film architecture goes, I doubt he has anything to do without politicing the suits. Johns is basically a PR representative who happens to know a lot about DC comics, as compared to an actual creative driving force that WB were willing to establish as their DC movie division figurehead. He was never going to be that.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I don't think Johns would be ushered out. I doubt his role would change much. I think it became clear awhile ago that he might not have that much input as far as decisions were concerned, as I pointed out elsewhere. I believe in the end-game, Johns is a sort of "secret weapon" in the PR and idea department. He may help guide things as far as character structure is concerned when working with a team and throw out the history and landmarks of the DC characters, but as far as the actual DC film architecture goes, I doubt he has anything to do without politicing the suits. Johns is basically a PR representative who happens to know a lot about DC comics, as compared to an actual creative driving force that WB were willing to establish as their DC movie division figurehead. He was never going to be that.


Well he was instrumental in bringing in Patty right? At the very least, they should let him have a role in talent acquisition and determining a rough "vision" for each character. Thats basically what he did for WW and it seemed to turn out pretty well. 

I know he'll never be a Feige though, becuase Feige not only gets the characters but is also great at the actual production side of the gig.

----------


## Doctor Know

> Well he was instrumental in bringing in Patty right? At the very least, they should let him have a role in talent acquisition and determining a rough "vision" for each character. Thats basically what he did for WW and it seemed to turn out pretty well. 
> 
> I know he'll never be a Feige though, becuase Feige not only gets the characters but is also great at the actual production side of the gig.


Patty was Snyder's choice. 

Johns has been a producer on all the DC films since 2011 (starting with GL), except the TDKRises and MOS.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Patty was Snyder's choice. 
> 
> Johns has been a producer on all the DC films since 2011 (starting with GL), except the TDKRises and MOS.


Ah okay. And I know he was a producer, but I didn't think he was actually handling the day to day production of the movies like Berg was.

----------


## Clark_Kent

With Affleck wanting out, it makes sense he'd finish his contract with Flashpoint, rather than a solo, because it's much less work. I'm sure they will spend the first quarter of the movie in the same fashion as the animated version...starting it with a quick flashback of Nora's death, and then we'll get a modern day JL action scene of some sort to set up Thawne and to also remind the audience of how these characters are supposed to act before plunging into a timeline where they act wrong. Definitely JL 1.5, and I'm curious to see if they get the entire gang back together. 

I wonder if they would get Cavill, and then use the same VFX on him that were used in the first Captain America before Steve's experiment? Might be the only way to get a malnourished look for him (if they included him at all). 

I also agree with those who say Affleck should be Bruce at the start as well as the end. Recasting Batman for the standalone films won't confuse the audience at all, they are used to it (Bond since the 60's, 90's Batman, the MCU). But Affleck receiving the note from Thomas would be the perfect out for him. I can totally see Barry leaving the cave while the camera lingers on Bruce Wayne, seated under some bright workbench lighting, and a slow fade to black as the camera slowly backs away.

----------


## Lightning Rider

That would be a nice out, probably the best way.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I really really question the idea of a flashpoint movie, when the foundation of the regular DCU on screen isn't all that stable. Are audiences really going to be drawn in by the novelty of a "different" DCU when they aren't really sure what the normal one is supposed to be like? 

Just seems like a sprint before you crawl type scenario, especially given that (to my knowledge) they still don't have a director.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> That would be a nice out, probably the best way.


That's how I would do it, anyway. It's a classy & symbolic sendoff of the actor, which seems to be important to Affleck. Plus, every actor yearns for opportunities to really display their acting skills, and the scene of him reading the letter could be a very powerful one, and one not seen very often in comic book movies.

----------


## Bossace

Please give me a flash solo before flashpoint. We haven’t even fully developed this character and he deserves his own solo focusing on him building his story his friends and life as Barry on his own before going into flashpoint. I feel like tying to establish Barry more fully and trying to do flashpoint will be a mess.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I really really question the idea of a flashpoint movie, when the foundation of the regular DCU on screen isn't all that stable. Are audiences really going to be drawn in by the novelty of a "different" DCU when they aren't really sure what the normal one is supposed to be like? 
> 
> Just seems like a sprint before you crawl type scenario, especially given that (to my knowledge) they still don't have a director.


My biggest question in all of it is Gadot. She's very protective of the character right now, very possessive (in a great way!). Would she sign on to play Diana as someone who kills people because she's a villain in this story? WW was pretty brutal in Flashpoint, and even hung someone with her lasso (at least, she did in the animated movie...it's been a while since I read the comic). I don't know if she'll play Diana that way. 

Plus, as comic readers, we pretty much just accept that characters act differently when timelines are altered; the film would need to go out of its way to show WHY this timeline affected her so much. Maybe the movie can show that the timeline change means Steve never crashed there, and thus she never left the island until much much later or something, I dunno.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Please give me a flash solo before flashpoint. We haven’t even fully developed this character and he deserves his own solo focusing on him building his story his friends and life as Barry on his own before going into flashpoint. I feel like tying to establish Barry more fully and trying to do flashpoint will be a mess.


I think this is an important note, too...doesn't the Variety article say Affleck will appear in "the Flash solo", but does not specifically mention Flashpoint? I know every site is running with it as FP, and we all are too, but I don't think that's what the original article said. I need to read it again though. Maybe it really is just a Flash solo, guest-starring Affleck.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> My biggest question in all of it is Gadot. She's very protective of the character right now, very possessive (in a great way!). Would she sign on to play Diana as someone who kills people because she's a villain in this story? WW was pretty brutal in Flashpoint, and even hung someone with her lasso (at least, she did in the animated movie...it's been a while since I read the comic). I don't know if she'll play Diana that way. 
> 
> Plus, as comic readers, we pretty much just accept that characters act differently when timelines are altered; the film would need to go out of its way to show WHY this timeline affected her so much. Maybe the movie can show that the timeline change means Steve never crashed there, and thus she never left the island until much much later or something, I dunno.


Also could be possible that they simply use the basics of FP but not the complete 1:1 details: It's a Flash time-travel screws up the world story, but some of the specifics such as Ultra-Murder Wonder Woman and Aquaman will be left on the table.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Also could be possible that they simply use the basics of FP but not the complete 1:1 details: It's a Flash time-travel screws up the world story, but some of the specifics such as Ultra-Murder Wonder Woman and Aquaman will be left on the table.


I could see that as a possibility. I feel like they threw in that line from Arthur in JL very purposefully to set up their FP conflict ("You're gorgeous. I know our peoples went to war back in the day, but that was before my time."), but obviously they don't have to use it or reference it.

----------


## Robotman

> Please give me a flash solo before flashpoint. We haven’t even fully developed this character and he deserves his own solo focusing on him building his story his friends and life as Barry on his own before going into flashpoint. I feel like tying to establish Barry more fully and trying to do flashpoint will be a mess.


I think Flashpoint would be a huge mistake right now. The story is everything they are trying to get away from. It basically hits all the wrong notes. It’s incredibly dark, the movie’s budget would be huge, and it’s yet another crossover right after the Justice League failure (something they said they were going to move away from).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think Flashpoint would be a huge mistake right now. The story is everything they are trying to get away from. It basically hits all the wrong notes. It’s incredibly dark, the movie’s budget would be huge, and it’s yet another crossover right after the Justice League failure (something they said they were going to move away from).


They would be better off just making a straight Flash movie.  Give a little more background to his origins, have him meet some of his foes, Captain Cold, Gorilla Grodd, King Shark, 
culminating in meeting Zoom or Reverse Flash in the climatic finish.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> They would be better off just making a straight Flash movie.  Give a little more background to his origins, have him meet some of his foes, Captain Cold, Gorilla Grodd, King Shark, 
> culminating in meeting Zoom or Reverse Flash in the climatic finish.


I just thought of something. Since the TV show is already doing those things, and doing them well, what if they really went nuts with the movie & told the story of Flash going to the future & meeting Thawne for the very first time? It could be a buddy-Flash movie for 3/4's of it, until the climactic turn when Barry realizes Thawne is unstable. Then you save Thawne coming back to our present for the sequel, whether that be Flashpoint or just Flash 2. 

At least it wouldn't tread a lot of the same ground the tv show has already done for 3.5 years.

----------


## Bossace

> I just thought of something. Since the TV show is already doing those things, and doing them well, what if they really went nuts with the movie & told the story of Flash going to the future & meeting Thawne for the very first time? It could be a buddy-Flash movie for 3/4's of it, until the climactic turn when Barry realizes Thawne is unstable. Then you save Thawne coming back to our present for the sequel, whether that be Flashpoint or just Flash 2. 
> 
> At least it wouldn't tread a lot of the same ground the tv show has already done for 3.5 years.



I agree, I feel they are in it a bit of a tough spot movie wise I feel because there is a popular flash show on now while they are trying to develop this movie flash. I love the show it’s fun and great but of course the tv show allows for so much world building and character development a movie can never have. As of now I prefer CW flash because I felt DCEU flash was a bit too annoying for my tastes. Now they have to find a way to make this character his own because of course it will draw comparisons to CW, they need to do something the tv show isn’t.

----------


## Slowpokeking

PLZ PLZ keep Johns, he's the right guy to oversee DCEU.

----------


## Bossace

With Johns pretty much out I wonder if they’ll utilize Bendis more now

----------


## Flash Gordon

We haven't even gotten a solo Aquaman to enjoy yet and already they want to make him the brutal dictator of Flashpoint. 

Not to mention turning all the goodwill Wonder Woman has on its head, when she randomly is shown as a cold blooded killer.

I'd just like to see these characters allowed to breathe.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> We haven't even gotten a solo Aquaman to enjoy yet and already they want to make him the brutal dictator of Flashpoint. 
> 
> Not to mention turning all the goodwill Wonder Woman has on its head, when she randomly is shown as a cold blooded killer.


There is no certainty that they will follow the source material exactly. Has ANY comic book movie to date followed the source material exactly? Heck, we've already HAD a Flashpoint episode of the Flash show that in no way resembled the show. 

Meanwhile? About Johns? I think the fact that they're keeping him on in a reduced role is a sign that they haven't given up on him altogether. It seems clear he still has some learning to do before he can (hopefully) become the DCEU's Kevin Feige. They still see his potential, but they don't think he's quite ready for the big time yet.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Those Aquaman scenes were awesome, but the more I look at it, the more I think Jason should play Lobo!

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Not only had every movie been bad or divisive save for _Wonder woman_, but we know so little about this Flash that him altering the timeline means nothing. We don't know what changed because we haven't really met Barry. And beyond that, the larger narrative is summed up in an alien invasion and its aftermath, all of which can't really be affected by Barry because how would anything he does on Earth affect a Kryptonian invasion from space? 

Flashpoint is way too early. Even Eobard Thawne is too early to introduce and at best could use The Rival which could even provide Super speed henchmen. However ideally I would want someone else like Grodd or Captain Cold.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> With Johns pretty much out I wonder if they’ll utilize Bendis more now



You mean the same Bendis who was ousted out of the MCU?

Nah.  The DCEU needs its own Bendis. I nominate Ed Boon.  He's an executive and a creative as well as a pretty good hype man.

----------


## kurenai24

> *You mean the same Bendis who was ousted out of the MCU?*
> 
> Nah.  The DCEU needs its own Bendis. I nominate Ed Boon.  He's an executive and a creative as well as a pretty good hype man.


The makes it sound like it was him personally and the used of the  word 'ousted' makes it harsher and more negative then what it was.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> You mean the same Bendis who was ousted out of the MCU?
> 
> Nah.  The DCEU needs its own Bendis. I nominate Ed Boon.  He's an executive and a creative as well as a pretty good hype man.


Ed Boon? As in Mortal Kombat/Injustice Ed Boon?

----------


## Robotman

> You mean the same Bendis who was ousted out of the MCU?
> 
> Nah.  The DCEU needs its own Bendis. I nominate Ed Boon.  He's an executive and a creative as well as a pretty good hype man.


Hell no. Boon is a “90s guy” who still likes things “extreme!”. While I loved the Injustice game overall I hated their treatment of Superman and Wonder Woman. It seems like when creators don’t like or understand a character their reaction is to make them murderous villains. Boon can go ahead and use his celebrity to promote the games but keep him far away from the development side of things.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Hell no. Boon is a “90s guy” who still likes things “extreme!”. While I loved the Injustice game overall I hated their treatment of Superman and Wonder Woman. It seems like when creators don’t like or understand a character their reaction is to make them murderous villains. Boon can go ahead and use his celebrity to promote the games but keep him far away from the development side of things.


Agreed. Let him stay where he does best... Make great fighting games.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> PLZ PLZ keep Johns, he's the right guy to oversee DCEU.


NO he is not.

He panders to a certain demo at the expense of others. It's odd that many of the ruin characters under his watch are guys made popular outside of comics. And even guys like Cyborg-it's been a struggle to get right.

Marvel gets the praise (deserved or not) because they realize that project has to appeal to EVERYBODY and that means using folks the entitlement crew raise hell about so much.

We are about to see a Spider-man film WITHOUT Peter Parker as the lead. Think about that for a moment. That doesn't even sound right. Yet we are getting it because someone at Marvel said we need to offer the best of both worlds and milk whatever we can from those who like Miles-even the ones who don't read comics. 

Instead of the war of fanbases we see with Flash, Green Lantern, Robin & established POC vs the new ones.

Someone has to be here to offer balance. Not fanboy silver age love and a depressed movie universe lead by Batman. There is a reason folks loved Wonder Woman.

Someone is needed who respects and understands-those guys who are popular based on tv shows are just as important as the ones who only are popular in comics like Hal.

Someone has to find the best of both worlds. There is a reason folks loved Young Justice & Static Shock.

I don't know who that person is but they need to find them. For all that hate and burning of comics lead by entitlement fans and comic book store owners-Miles still got his movie. We will America Chavez, Gwen, Carol, Khan and a new guy named Patriot in a movie.Marvel is still doing business.

While Dc is in damage control mode.

----------


## Baseman

> NO he is not.
> 
> He panders to a certain demo at the expense of others. It's odd that many of the ruin characters under his watch are guys made popular outside of comics. And even guys like Cyborg-it's been a struggle to get right.
> 
> Marvel gets the praise (deserved or not) because they realize that project has to appeal to EVERYBODY and that means using folks the entitlement crew raise hell about so much.
> 
> We are about to see a Spider-man film WITHOUT Peter Parker as the lead. Think about that for a moment. That doesn't even sound right. Yet we are getting it because someone at Marvel said we need to offer the best of both worlds and milk whatever we can from those who like Miles-even the ones who don't read comics. 
> 
> Instead of the war of fanbases we see with Flash, Green Lantern, Robin & established POC vs the new ones.
> ...


The problem with that is time.Are they supposed to put all their movie projects on hold until they find such a person?

They need someone they can trust to fix the DCCU _right now_ and for now Johns is their best bet.Its a better opinion than searching for some random person and putting he/she in charge of their cinematic universe.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> NO he is not.
> 
> *He panders to a certain demo at the expense of others.* It's odd that many of the ruin characters under his watch are guys made popular outside of comics. And even guys like Cyborg-it's been a struggle to get right.


Anytime you support any character, you're screwing over another. You realize that the characters he's thrown his weight behind were guys who were *majorly* screwed in previous eras, right? I mean, I love Kyle, but its just a fact that, in order to introduce him Hal was given the shaft by Ron Marz and DC. Not too many characters can say that they were literally turned into a cosmic-level villain who was an enemy of all the people they had called friends for years. And it got to the point where Hal was pretty much written out of any media representation. In the DCAU, his classic origin was swiped by Kyle and his spot on the League went to John and Hal didn't even exist. GL Rebirth was Hal finally getting his due after being disrespected and spat on for about a decade.

Any future GL and Flash adaptations needs to represent the legacy that makes those franchises special.




> We are about to see a Spider-man film WITHOUT Peter Parker as the lead. Think about that for a moment. That doesn't even sound right. Yet we are getting it because someone at Marvel said we need to offer the best of both worlds and milk whatever we can from those who like Miles-even the ones who don't read comics.


An animated movie. Its not like Miles is heading up the MCU Spider-Man movies and Peter is completely written out of existence. Though I sure would love to see Miles pop up in the MCU.

----------


## Frontier

> N
> Someone has to be here to offer balance. Not fanboy silver age love and a depressed movie universe lead by Batman. There is a reason folks loved Wonder Woman.


Don't most of the leads from the MCU date back to the Silver Age? Even Black Panther was created in the Silver Age

----------


## yohyoi

> Instead of the war of fanbases we see with Flash, Green Lantern, *Robin* & established POC vs the new ones.


There is no war. Only decimation brought down by the Dick.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Don't most of the leads from the MCU date back to the Silver Age? Even Black Panther was created in the Silver Age


Heck, Wonder Woman dates back to the Golden Age.

----------


## Jokerz79

Geoff Johns is a great creative consultant for the DCEU but he shouldn't run it. Now I don't have a name for someone who should because there is no Kevin Feige he's kind of unique because he's a fan of the comics but he worked his way up the producing ladder so he knows how the sausage is made in filmmaking. I just don't know of anyone else who is both on the WB side outside of maybe Affleck but he seems to be one foot out the door. At this point I think they should pick a good Executive who can get the film side done and who will be willing to listen to Johns on the characters but who that could be I don't know.

----------


## Agent Z

> Anytime you support any character, you're screwing over another. You realize that the characters he's thrown his weight behind were guys who were *majorly* screwed in previous eras, right? I mean, I love Kyle, but its just a fact that, in order to introduce him Hal was given the shaft by Ron Marz and DC. Not too many characters can say that they were literally turned into a cosmic-level villain who was an enemy of all the people they had called friends for years. And it got to the point where Hal was pretty much written out of any media representation. In the DCAU, his classic origin was swiped by Kyle and his spot on the League went to John and Hal didn't even exist. GL Rebirth was Hal finally getting his due after being disrespected and spat on for about a decade.
> 
> Any future GL and Flash adaptations needs to represent the legacy that makes those franchises special.
> 
> 
> 
> An animated movie. Its not like Miles is heading up the MCU Spider-Man movies and Peter is completely written out of existence. Though I sure would love to see Miles pop up in the MCU.


Aside from Hal, none of the characters Johns has pushed has been a victim of editorial. I don't see him using his position to support characters like Cass Cain, Steph Brown, John Stewart, Connor Hawke, the YJ team, the members of Justice League International etc. Hell Johns has had a hand in wrecking some of these characters himself. 

Two wrongs don't make a right. John, Kyle and Guy shouldn't be punished for what was done to Hal two decades ago.

----------


## Majesty

Until Fujihara is gone. There won't be a "move" that excited me. 

Cause no matter what they do, Fujihara will sabotage it. HE is the one that needs to go.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Aside from Hal, none of the characters Johns has pushed has been a victim of editorial. I don't see him using his position to support characters like Cass Cain, Steph Brown, John Stewart, Connor Hawke, the YJ team, the members of Justice League International etc. Hell Johns has had a hand in wrecking some of these characters himself.


Remember this little guy named Barry Allen, who was killed off and then not heard from for about 25 years? That may not have been editorial's handiwork and it doesn't excuse what happened to Wally after Barry was revived, but he is another example of a victimized character. Also, Johns doesn't have final say over publishing. He's made that very clear. The guy who is actually in charge of what gets published, Dan Didio, has always seemingly had it in for legacy characters. He wanted to kill Nightwing during Infinite Crisis and it was only through Johns offering him Conner Kent as a sacrificial lamb that he backed off. The New 52, which famously erased pretty much all of the legacy characters you've mentioned, was Didio's brainchild. So, if there's anybody to blame for the treatment legacies have received over the past several years, well...

Plus, Johns did kind of throw his weight behind Wally after Dan saw fit to erase him by, you know, bringing him back into existence.




> Two wrongs don't make a right. John, Kyle and Guy shouldn't be punished for what was done to Hal two decades ago.


Not having all the spotlight is not the same as being punished. In the current Hal Jordan & the Green Lantern Corps title, John is currently leading the Corps and gets a lot of screen time showcasing how he's adjusting to the role, Kyle and his doomed romance with Soranik gets a good amount of play to the point where a whole arc was dedicated to it, and Guy is always there for comedic relief. So, they get a good amount of focus. As much as a single title would allow. But even before that, for years, they each played their own role in the Green Lantern dynamic and even just a few years ago, each headlined their own series. It wasn't until Johns left, and sales started to go down, that the GL franchise had to shrink back down to only two titles.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Two wrongs don't make a right. John, Kyle and Guy shouldn't be punished for what was done to Hal two decades ago.


None of them are being punished. They are getting less focus, but they are not in limbo. But even so, they are all in a bimonthly title as heroes. None of them have been turned into supervillains and then killed off for a decade.

Meanwhile, Simon and Jessica are in their own bimonthly book and in JL, so Hal isn't the only one getting a push. Emerald Twilight and Hal love can't be used as a strawman in that case for why John, Kyle and Guy aren't in more than 1 book.

----------


## Agent Z

> Remember this little guy named Barry Allen, who was killed off and then not heard from for about 25 years? That may not have been editorial's handiwork and it doesn't excuse what happened to Wally after Barry was revived, but he is another example of a victimized character. Also, Johns doesn't have final say over publishing. He's made that very clear. The guy who is actually in charge of what gets published, Dan Didio, has always seemingly had it in for legacy characters. He wanted to kill Nightwing during Infinite Crisis and it was only through Johns offering him Conner Kent as a sacrificial lamb that he backed off. The New 52, which famously erased pretty much all of the legacy characters you've mentioned, was Didio's brainchild. So, if there's anybody to blame for the treatment legacies have received over the past several years, well...
> 
> Plus, Johns did kind of throw his weight behind Wally after Dan saw fit to erase him by, you know, bringing him back into existence.
> 
> 
> 
> Not having all the spotlight is not the same as being punished. In the current Hal Jordan & the Green Lantern Corps title, John is currently leading the Corps and gets a lot of screen time showcasing how he's adjusting to the role, Kyle and his doomed romance with Soranik gets a good amount of play to the point where a whole arc was dedicated to it, and Guy is always there for comedic relief. So, they get a good amount of focus. As much as a single title would allow. But even before that, for years, they each played their own role in the Green Lantern dynamic and even just a few years ago, each headlined their own series. It wasn't until Johns left, and sales started to go down, that the GL franchise had to shrink back down to only two titles.


Barry wasn't victimised. He had a noble sacrifice in Crisis on Infinite Earths and for the 25 years of his death his legacy was respected. This is a far cry from how numerous characters, many of whom have the rotten luck of being made after the Silver Age, were made into cheap cannon fodder, thrown into limbo or just written horribly. 

So how much control does Johns actually have then?

Also, recall that DC was planning on killing off John but only stopped when the writer revealed this after quitting.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Barry wasn't victimised. He had a noble sacrifice in Crisis on Infinite Earths and for the 25 years of his death his legacy was respected. This is a far cry from how numerous characters, many of whom have the rotten luck of being made after the Silver Age, were made into cheap cannon fodder, thrown into limbo or just written horribly.


Victimized is too strong a word for what happened to Barry, but the end result was that a character was taken off the stage for 25 years. And unless there were elseworlds or flashback stories/mini-series, Barry fans were shit outta luck if they wanted to read about him in an ongoing capacity. And then they constantly had to hear about how boring and underdeveloped he was and that he was better off dead to serve the narrative of his successor. They still have to hear it. I can't imagine that was any fun. What happened to Wally in-universe following Flashpoint was arguably worse, but his "exile" didn't last nearly as long, and the only difference is that it was his fanbase that got screwed over instead of Barry's. 

Kara had the rotten luck of being a Silver Age character in an era where DC wanted to avoid any Kryptonians other than Superman and distance him from the sillier aspects of his previous era, so she not only got killed off but exiled from canon for a couple decades. Hal had the rotten luck of surviving the Silver Age and into an era where nobody wanted to write him, so they screwed him over and replaced him with a younger, hipper version. Characters getting screwed over when no creative talent are around to champion them is not a new thing, and not something that's only happened to the 90s characters. Maybe someday the odds will shift back in their favor. These things go in cycles. But not every character is going to be around and be promoted by the company all the time. And we still have some new characters running around that weren't in the Silver Age (Damian, Jon, Simon, Jessica, Kate Kane, Mother Panic, Casey Brinke, etc.).

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Barry wasn't victimised. He had a noble sacrifice in Crisis on Infinite Earths and for the 25 years of his death his legacy was respected. This is a far cry from how numerous characters, many of whom have the rotten luck of being made after the Silver Age, were made into cheap cannon fodder, thrown into limbo or just written horribly.


Pretty much what SiegePerilous said. Barry was still taken away for over two decades and then derided as a Silver Age "relic". And I say that as a Wally fan who hates what they did to him later on. Plus, actually a lot of the characters that end up getting screwed tend to be from the Silver Age: Barry, Kara, Kathy Kane, and even Wally West are all characters that first appeared in the Silver Age.




> So how much control does Johns actually have then?


I saw an interview with Johns where he basically says "Dan and Jim are in charge of the publishing arm of the company." Johns probably has enough clout so that there isn't much pushback on what *he* writes, but obviously, not everyone has those privileges.




> Also, recall that DC was planning on killing off John but only stopped when the writer revealed this after quitting.


Okay, and was there any proof that Johns was the one who handed down that editorial edict, since he's not, well, an *editor*? Plus, killing off a comic book character doesn't necessarily translate to "we hate him." How many characters have died and been brought back within the span of one or two years? Superman, Batman, Captain America, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hawkeye, Superboy, Donna Troy, Ronnie Raymond, Johnny Storm, etc. I doubt that, even if they had pulled the trigger on John, that he'd be gone for long. Plus, having read the story where they were supposedly to kill off John, I can say the scene would've been him going out in a blaze of glory, nobly sacrificing himself for his fellow Lanterns. But of course, most importantly, they wouldn't have kept him dead for 10-25 years.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Watched JL again. Empty theatre unfortunately, film is mostly good more good than bad, pacing in the first act is atrocious even worse the second time. You can blatantly tell what's been cut, the Amazons vs Steppen best action in the film and Superman crashing on steppen still gosebumps worthy. Solid 7/10. OST is terrible, can't believe I gave Elfman the benefit.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> And we still have some new characters running around that weren't in the Silver Age (Damian, Jon, Simon, Jessica, Kate Kane, Mother Panic, Casey Brinke, etc.).


Plus, there's Tim Drake, Jason Todd, Kyle Rayner, Jason Rusch, Jaime Reyes, Steel (John Henry), etc. all still running around. And don't get me wrong, there's obviously been an issue with how DC has treated legacy characters from the Bronze and Modern Ages. I'm still waiting for Conner Kent, Bart Allen, Cassie Sandsmark, Connor Hawke, and co. to come back (and not crappy New 52 versions, but the real deals). However, it doesn't have to be either/or. I can support Hal Jordan *and* Kyle Rayner *and* John Stewart. I can be a fan of Barry Allen *and* Wally West. I can like both Kara Zor El *and* Linda Danvers or both Barbara Gordon *and* Cass Cain (though I agree that Babs was more interesting as Oracle).

People seem to be stuck in this dichotomy where you can't have more than one iconic version of a character or mantle. Its something I really wish DC and the fans would move past.

----------


## Bossace

As much as we blame the studio because we do know they screwed up, besides JL they’ve had a great year with movies so I can see how the blame would go from the execs a lot less to more only the people who worked on the movie

----------


## manofsteel1979

I wonder if the studio now wishes they had just let Snyder complete JL as he intended without trying to micromanage it all, and then if it underperformed, they could have more easily made a cleaner break with the Snyder incarnation of the DCU, called it a Superman trilogy, and move on to other things.Now, they've kind of planted their flag and doubled down on this mess being the launch of their universe.

 If they were so frightened at the prospect of Snyder doing JL after BvS underperformed, they should have either scrapped production completely and started over or fired Snyder before shooting and have another director take over. However, once they made the choice to keep Snyder they should have stuck with him, let him make the best movie he could and let the chips fall where they may. 

As it stands, the reshoots and scrambling to Frankenstein it into a launching pad for everything after JL that was a more Marvelized approach was a financial disaster. They pretty much wasted anywhere from $40-75 million dollars extra, if not more, and for what? Yes we got some cool Superman moments, but was it worth it? Even though I liked all that stuff, I'm not completely convinced Snyder's vision for Superman in JL at the end was all that different from what we saw anyway, so no.

I doubt a purely Snyder cut would have done even worse at the Box office. Even if it did fare a little worse, at least it would have been up against a $250 mill budget instead of $300-$400 million. It could have possibly broken even at least. Now that's unlikely. 

And even if it still lost money, it still wasn't worth the wasted time and bad blood resulting from the reshoots. I'm convinced the main reason that Affleck wants out so badly was because if the bad experience of this scrambling. He was pretty gun ho about the role and now he's anxious to go. I'm sure he saw what Warners did to Snyder and realized the same thing was going to happen on his Batman movie, and he was like " screw this!" And bailed. Can't say I blame him.

----------


## Elmo

I realized I wrote up (most of) my full thoughts on Justice League and never actually posted them. Note: I got to see the movie a few days early for free and I thought I actually enjoyed it. However, after some contemplation and a second viewing, I realized how I actually felt about it.

I'll start off by saying I didn't like it.

The movie is deeply flawed from start to finish. It begins with one of the most out-of-place and unnecessary scenes in the whole movie, which is the video footage of kids talking to Superman. Not only does the aspect ratio and weird upper lip make it seem like a promotional clip/advertisement and not an actual scene, it’s not real. It clearly wasn’t filmed with a cell phone, the children speaking are clearly voice actors and not actually in the scene which makes it feels less real, and Cavill’s FACE. EW. It’s also just a pathetic scene overall. As a whole the film is not about Superman. Superman plays a role, yes, but it seems the idea of the reshoots was to paint the film as some huge homage to Superman, when in fact that’s not what it is. Therefore beginning with a scene with Superman and cutting it short with a stupid college film class level VHS glitch sets up a failure of a movie. 

The movie is just a mess, and it isn’t because of reshoots or studio oversight or cut footage. The story and the writing just do not make sense. The story is this-- Batman discovers an invasion is coming, gathers his team, realizes his team can’t do anything, decides to resurrect the long-dead Superman. During the speculation era for JL we all thought Darkseid or some villain was going to bring back Superman for an evil purpose which would have been far more compelling than “we can’t do this, let’s get the guy who can.”

Yes, I understand Batman felt guilty for Superman’s death. But wasn’t him changing his whole act and becoming a more selfless person part of his repentance for that?? The man died for his planet and for Lois. You ruined that by morbidly and SELFISHLY bringing him back when nobody asked for it. The reason the Death & Resurrection of Superman in the comics is so compelling, is because he died fighting for what he believed in, and that was his end. He didn’t come back because it was “destiny” or because people needed him. He was at peace and he was brought back because a villain wanted to drain his powers. Just the mere idea of bringing someone back from death for their own personal gain turns me off SO MUCH, and it makes me wonder if it was a Joss Whedon idea, because he did the same shit in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I hated it then too. At least then Buffy was dealing with the psychological effects and admitted how morbid and selfish it was. When Superman comes back, he’s all smiles, and essentially NOTHING like MoS Superman. He’s the stigmatized-to-death Reeves version and it’s honestly pathetic to watch. No explanation is given for him to attack the Justice League. Him softening because of Lois is a tired tired trope. Just the whole plotline with Superman was a mess. I would have rather he not be in the movie at all. 

Speaking of a mess, let’s look at Batman. He is so many different characters in this movie. He’s wisecracking silver age Batman, brooding Batman, or just straight up asshole Batman, with no handle on any specific version. Just like this entire movie, he is all over the place tonally. 

Steppenwolf is a flawed villain. He starts out very promising. The idea of him being “exiled” from the fourth world and desperate to become one of the New Gods (even though he already is??) is pretty compelling, however there is no explanation as to why taking over the earth will help him achieve this. 

Mother boxes are pretty much two fold in the comics, yet in the DCEU Steppenwolf acts as if these are the only ones in existence. The concept of three motherboxes forming together to make one giant one that can transform a planet is (to my recollection) completely made up and not from any Jack Kirby comic, it’s also not explained why they need to do this or what each one itself does. They never actually utilize the mother boxes’ powers, which makes me care less about their little McGuffin storyline.

As a whole, the movie is a tonal mess. It goes back and forth between lighthearted superhero romp and dark action/adventure. The way certain scenes are set up, camera angles, etc, makes it look poorly made. Green screen usage is rampant, this is backed by the fact that I know a good 90% of the film was shot indoors. Many characters don’t actually appear on screen together yet still talk to each other, which is fine sometimes, but it happens in almost EVERY. DAMN. SCENE. There’s no fluidity between the scenes and the characters. None of the conversations feel genuine. It all feels forced and sloppy. 

Aquaman and Barry Allen were great. The fight scene under Gotham Harbor was a little fun. Everything else was just a straight up bore. I’ll always be a DC stan and I STRONGLY DISLIKE the MCU, but oh man does this movie suck.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I wonder if the studio now wishes they had just let Snyder complete JL as he intended without trying to micromanage it all, and then if it underperformed, they could have more easily made a cleaner break with the Snyder incarnation of the DCU, called it a Superman trilogy, and move on to other things.Now, they've kind of planted their flag and doubled down on this mess being the launch of their universe.
> 
>  If they were so frightened at the prospect of Snyder doing JL after BvS underperformed, they should have either scrapped production completely and started over or fired Snyder before shooting and have another director take over. However, once they made the choice to keep Snyder they should have stuck with him, let him make the best movie he could and let the chips fall where they may. 
> 
> As it stands, the reshoots and scrambling to Frankenstein it into a launching pad for everything after JL that was a more Marvelized approach was a financial disaster. They pretty much wasted anywhere from $40-75 million dollars extra, if not more, and for what? Yes we got some cool Superman moments, but was it worth it? Even though I liked all that stuff, I'm not completely convinced Snyder's vision for Superman in JL at the end was all that different from what we saw anyway, so no.
> 
> I doubt a purely Snyder cut would have done even worse at the Box office. Even if it did fare a little worse, at least it would have been up against a $250 mill budget instead of $300-$400 million. It could have possibly broken even at least. Now that's unlikely. 
> 
> And even if it still lost money, it still wasn't worth the wasted time and bad blood resulting from the reshoots. I'm convinced the main reason that Affleck wants out so badly was because if the bad experience of this scrambling. He was pretty gun ho about the role and now he's anxious to go. I'm sure he saw what Warners did to Snyder and realized the same thing was going to happen on his Batman movie, and he was like " screw this!" And bailed. Can't say I blame him.


Rumor is they're thinking about releasing a Joss Whedon cut of the film on Blu-Ray and DVD so to me if anything that would seem like they if anything regret having Snyder directing any of it if they think a Whedon cut is the film that will make them money on the home market. I'm not saying they're right Snyder definitely had some good ideas going by the cut scenes I'm just commenting on what appears to be the WB's opinion by their actions.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

They've apparently updated their slate: https://www.cbr.com/dceu-updated-movie-slate/

It looks like the Cyborg solo movie is out. Good riddance, IMO. Get Victor back on the Titans!! #NTTMoviePlz!!

----------


## Elmo



----------


## Johnny

According to the Aquaman Shrine, "WB can develop other movies not included and/or make changes to list as it is not a legal contract". Which make sense since Black Adam has a writer, Nightwing has a writer-director and Ray Fisher recently said Cyborg is in the works. Naturally anything can change, but don't take this list as indicative that something must not be happening just because it's absent.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> Rumor is they're thinking about releasing a Joss Whedon cut of the film on Blu-Ray and DVD so to me if anything that would seem like they if anything regret having Snyder directing any of it if they think a Whedon cut is the film that will make them money on the home market. I'm not saying they're right Snyder definitely had some good ideas going by the cut scenes I'm just commenting on what appears to be the WB's opinion by their actions.


Well then they should have just replaced Snyder with Whedon at the start rather than keeping Snyder, have him make his movie then bring in someone else to retro fit it to their vision, then unceremonially essentially push Snyder out. If the studio wanted it to be a Marvel movie, then it should have been filmed from start to finish as such. As it is, it's a mess. An entertaining and surprisingly coherent mess, but a mess, and worse of all, an insanely expensive and internally contentious mess.

 My point is it ultimately wasn't worth the extra money spent Because it obviously didn't make a for a profitable film. The budget ballooned so high that it had to make a billion to be at all profitable. If they had Either fired Snyder from day one or just let him finish his film, at least the budget likely would have stayed in the 250 range rather than the $300+ million range ( I've seen some estimates of $400 million mentioned. ) Even if the movie would have made, say 500 million instead of 600 million-650 million that it will likely end up at, I fail to see how the reshoots resulted in a better film financially. 

Plus again, I doubt Affleck would be racing out the door so fast if not for the behind the scenes drama that supposedly occurred between Whedon and Affleck and the other actors. It likely soured him on wanting to direct his own Batman movie knowing the suits would have done the same to him, and the creative control was part of the reason he took the role. I honestly don't blame him for running away.

I happen to think JL would have done pretty much the same with Snyder. Even if WOM would have been better with Whedon's cut, it obviously didn't help it. If BvS was as much of a disaster and albatross around this movie as some claim, then nothing short of a bold distancing from Snyder would have made any difference, and they didn't. They stuck with him publicly while privately retrofitting the movie,and other than perhaps some good will for Henry's Supes, it didn't pay off. Hell, even that good will was tempered by all the bad publicity the questionable CGI on his moustache garnered. 

We'll never know for sure of course. However, I find it hard to believe JL could have performed any worse if they simply made a decision over who should direct, and once that decision was made, just stick with it and bring the film at the allotted budget and hope for the best,but prepare to pivot away gracefully if it failed. It can be argued that if they had kept Snyder after the decision to keep him had been made, it would have been far less messier.


Basically , the WB should have crapped or get off the pot. Half measures and compromises didn't work.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> 


I was hoping theyd drop Shazam

----------


## Ascended

And no word on Man of Steel 2 or Cyborg. 

I look forward to Wonder Woman 2, assuming WB doesn't stick their noses in and leaves Jenkins alone. And Aquaman should be fun, but MoS2 and Cyborg are the films I really want to see.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> According to the Aquaman Shrine, "WB can develop other movies not included and/or make changes to list as it is not a legal contract". Which make sense since Black Adam has a writer, Nightwing has a writer-director and Ray Fisher recently said Cyborg is in the works. Naturally anything can change, but don't take this list as indicative that something must not be happening just because it's absent.


Also Gotham City Sirens has a director, a writer, and a lead actress.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Looks like it's up to Aquaman and The Flash to save the DCEU  :Stick Out Tongue: .

The lipstick on _Suicide Squad 2_ feels like a Harley nod but I feel like it would better fit with _Gotham City Sirens_.

----------


## El_Gato

> I was hoping theyd drop Shazam


Do you mean the name? Because they aren't dropping the movie. It starts filming in 2 months and is currently casting it's characters.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Do you mean the name? Because they aren't dropping the movie. It starts filming in 2 months and is currently casting it's characters.


I meant the movie. I know its shooting soon but I dont see what they see in the franchise that is making them go forward with it and personally I am not much of a fan.

----------


## Slowpokeking

To be honest, if the budget had been like 250M, the current box office would be totally OK to get some revenue. 

I really don't think this movie has the quality of a 300M budget, those reshoots are too costly.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I meant the movie. I know its shooting soon but I dont see what they see in the franchise that is making them go forward with it and personally I am not much of a fan.


Oh, I’m the complete opposite. I’m real excited for it. I think what they see in the franchise is that it’s something different from anything Marvel has at the moment. It combines old school superheroics with mystical elements in a way that’s pretty unique. It’s basically like magical Superman. Plus, it’s a way to make the DCU finally seem deeper than just Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman.

----------


## manofsteel1979

> To be honest, if the budget had been like 250M, the current box office would be totally OK to get some revenue. 
> 
> I really don't think this movie has the quality of a 300M budget, those reshoots are too costly.


Yep. If they had just left things as they were ,the worst case scenario ,movie would have been more of a disappointing underperformer that broke even. Now in relation to the crazy budget, it's now a flop that'll lose money. Neither is good, but the first better, and at least it is a complete vision with a beginning, middle and end, AND they could have saved themselves the bad PR of bad CGI lips and all of this controversy over the Snyder cut vs. Whedon. 

There's a lesson here. Hopefully WB learns.

----------


## Robotman

Really annoyed they’re still going with Flashpoint. It’s pretty much everything that people have disliked about the DCEU. Very dark story, a massive crossover, and it will probably require a huge budget. They’re going to need a fantastic creative team to make this work. Not to mention much better organization. At least it will give Ray Fisher another chance to play Cyborg. I would love to see him get a chance to flesh out Cyborg (no pun intended) some more. Cyborg is the Superman of the Flashpoint universe afterall. 

Really sad there isn’t a MoS 2 on the list. My fanasy film would be Superman: Apokolips. A way to introduce both Supergirl and Darkseid. I would leave out Batman and Wonder Woman.

----------


## Ascended

> I meant the movie. I know its shooting soon but I dont see what they see in the franchise that is making them go forward with it and personally I am not much of a fan.


Well, if I had to hazard a guess I'd say they're probably aiming for a "Harry Potter meets Superman" type of fusion; cute humor and fantastical magic. Perhaps not unlike the New52.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> They've apparently updated their slate: https://www.cbr.com/dceu-updated-movie-slate/
> 
> It looks like the Cyborg solo movie is out. Good riddance, IMO. Get Victor back on the Titans!! #NTTMoviePlz!!


I seriously doubt theyd really release an updated slate at a remote comic con before Berg and Johns roles are replaced.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

That's a very weird list, it doesn't seem to be in any particular order and I'm highly doubtful that most of the stuff on it is any further down the road to starting production that the other DCEU films that are currently said to be on the scripting stage. Besides, shouldn't WB let the general sense of failure from Justice League die down a bit before trying to sell more of these films? I guess I'm saying that I'll believe this when I see something official rather than Twitter-reports.




> I seriously doubt theyd really release an updated slate at a remote comic con before Berg and Johns roles are replaced.


This as well.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Really annoyed they’re still going with Flashpoint. It’s pretty much everything that people have disliked about the DCEU. Very dark story, a massive crossover, and it will probably require a huge budget. They’re going to need a fantastic creative team to make this work. Not to mention much better organization. At least it will give Ray Fisher another chance to play Cyborg. I would love to see him get a chance to flesh out Cyborg (no pun intended) some more. Cyborg is the Superman of the Flashpoint universe afterall. 
> 
> Really sad there isn’t a MoS 2 on the list. My fanasy film would be Superman: Apokolips. A way to introduce both Supergirl and Darkseid. I would leave out Batman and Wonder Woman.


Plus ALOT of build up required

Flashpoint, TDKR and Injustice League were success because ppl knew the original setting too well so they brought something entirely new, they are not good materials to use when DCEU has just started to build up.

----------


## El_Gato

> I seriously doubt they’d really release an updated slate at a remote comic con before Berg and Johns roles are replaced.


Its pretty much the San Diego Comic Con line-up from earlier this year, only with new logos thrown in.

Also Brazil is one of DC's biggest markets, probably only behind USA and China, sometimes pulling ahead of UK and Mexico. It's probably WB rewarding Brazilian fans for making JL & WW huge there.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I seriously doubt they’d really release an updated slate at a remote comic con before Berg and Johns roles are replaced.


Berg is the only one being replaced. Johns, as far as I've heard, is still going to be the "comic guy" they go to for consultation.

----------


## Robotman

> Berg is the only one being replaced. Johns, as far as I've heard, is still going to be the "comic guy" they go to for consultation.


I think that’s pretty much been Johns’ role since he started producing films. He’s mainly the comic book consultant. I don’t know how much he has to do with the finished product. Berg was the deal maker of the duo. I’m sure he had a lot more interaction with the WB higher ups.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Berg is the only one being replaced. Johns, as far as I've heard, is still going to be the "comic guy" they go to for consultation.


Johns is getting demoted
They are seeking a new head for DC films and since Johns and Berg were both co heads I would only assume he's getting positioned back in role as Chief creative

----------


## Robotman

> Johns is getting demoted
> They are seeking a new head for DC films and since Johns and Berg were both co heads I would only assume he's getting positioned back in role as Chief creative


Do you have a source on this? Or a link to an office report?

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Johns is getting demoted
> They are seeking a new head for DC films and since Johns and Berg were both co heads I would only assume he's getting positioned back in role as Chief creative


NO, they got to let Johns take charge, this guy knew what's good and bad.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Do you have a source on this? Or a link to an office report?


It's in the Variety article, linked here. They're not explicit about a demotion but they do say he will not be a producer on upcoming DCU movies (as he had been) and he no longer seems to occupy the Kevin Feige-style role that resulted in a horrible friend breakup between him and DC president Diane Nelson when it was announced on bleeding cool he'd been promoted to the head of DC Films and no longer reported to Nelson. As I predicted in another "Geoff Johns as head of DC films style" thread, he has paid for Justice League even though he didn't have the same level of involvement he did with Wonder Woman. WB is talking about absorbing DC Films into WB offices, taking away any creative freedom Johns/Berg once had and he is being moved to an advisory capacity. It might take reading both of these articles to understand Johns' demotion but he has most certainly been demoted. If he's not going to be guiding the films in the 'DC theatrical' offices (and he isn't now) I'd much rather have him back writing comics full-time for them to base the movies on (though I recognize GL was that and really didn't work out).

Variety: http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc...ue-1202632214/

EXTREMELY different from his position as recently as late October:

bleedingcool: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...n-warner-bros/

Hope that helps.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Johns is getting demoted
> They are seeking a new head for DC films and since Johns and Berg were both co heads I would only assume he's getting positioned back in role as Chief creative


I haven't heard anything of them seeking a new head of DC Films. What I have heard actually is that they are considering absorbing DC Films into Warner Bros. proper.

----------


## BatmanJones

I don't know if this has been posted. This thread is a beast and difficult to keep up with. But if it hasn't been posted it's big news and surprising news:

https://www.cosmicbooknews.com/dceu-...azil-comic-con

Here's the essence though there's more at the link above:




> Those sweating the Justice League movie might have interfered with the DCEU movie slate can worry no more.
> 
> Warner Bros. has confirmed the DCEU movie lineup at this weekend's Brazil Comic-Con, which is the same eight movies announced at this Summer's San Diego Comic-Con; so we see no apparent changes have been made.
> 
> At the Brazil Comic-Con, WB mentioned the following movies are in works for:
> 
> Shazam (in pre-production, directed by David F. Sandberg, starring Zachary Levi; looking like an April 2019 release date) 
> Wonder Woman II (directed by Patty Jenkins, starring Gal Gadot, for a November 1, 2019 release date)
> Flashpoint
> ...


I find this astounding. So much so that I wonder if the report is just wrong. It is from a reputable site for sure. I just feel like maybe someone spoke for WB that shouldn't have. That's how unbelievable I find it that ALL of the above movies are truly still being made.

----------


## BatmanJones

I guess that probably has been posted since now I'm seeing it on lots of comic book movie sites. Apparently it's accurate. Sorry if I'm late to the party with that post though.

----------


## Frontier

> I haven't heard anything of them seeking a new head of DC Films. What I have heard actually is that they are considering absorbing DC Films into Warner Bros. proper.


I didn't even know if there was any kind of real head of the DC Films. It seemed like kind of ambiguous whether it was Johns spearheading anything or someone else. 

The DCEU doesn't really have a Kevin Feige yet.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Really annoyed theyre still going with Flashpoint. Its pretty much everything that people have disliked about the DCEU. Very dark story, a massive crossover, and it will probably require a huge budget. *Theyre going to need a fantastic creative team to make this work*. .


The bolding above is my feeling about every one of these films. WB has so much riding on them working out and with Snyder no longer in charge, which we know now they were VERY resistant to after BvS, which I imagine had a lot to do with the Frankensteining of Justice League, hopefully they have also learned the lesson to trust their directors and GTF out of the way. I wasn't happy with Snyder's DC movies. That's well known here by now (though I have a personal update on that topic to come in another post, sooner than later) but the WORST thing is to hire an artist and not let him do his job. If you're going to trust someone, you freaking trust them. You don't try to micromanage because it has never, to the best of my knowledge, improved a film sufficiently to make it a success in maybe all of film history. It never works to do that.

And it does seem like once Snyder is gone they'll be willing to do that. The now infamous Variety article made it pretty plain that WB's main problem was with Snyder which makes sense of the fact that they meddled so much in his movies but didn't meddle at all with, say, Patty Jenkins. I think the freakout over Suicide Squad that led to unsuccessful meddling was all about them freaking out about the critical failure of BvS. I think it shocked the heck out of them and, given they agreed to let him continue with JL after it (so as not to start over with so much spent on pre-production - the costly error of "throwing good money after bad"), they ought to have let him make his movie.

I'm a theatre director by trade as many know here by now because I've said it a lot to make various points about my POV but in theatre the auteur is the playwright, the writer. In film the auteur is the director. And if you hire an auteur director with a strong POV it never works to try to "manage" that. You can't do it effectively in theatre either but my point is that it's so much more true in film than in, for example, theatre.

At this point Snyder's just gone and there's no use in rehashing that. It's been done to death from all possible points of view. I just hope that WB has learned to get out of the way of their directors. I bolded the section of the post I quoted because that's it. That's the bottom line. Great creators make great movies (and plays and comics and all art). Period. Studio executives only know how to freak out about the latest thing that happened and interfere or opt to trust the directors they hire.

If they needed to mess with Snyder's JL, they just should have fired him and ate the money and started over. What they did instead hurt everyone involved. I deeply hope they've learned this one critical lesson. It will be the difference between us having good and successful DC movies and not having them.

----------


## BatmanJones

After all the dust has settled and having been through so many emotions re: Justice League and DCEU, I decided recently to pretend there had never been a DCEU, to clear my brain of what had happened, and watch Zack Snyder's MoS and BvS with absolutely NO expectations. And I did so trying VERY hard to just at least appreciate that there were movies out there about Superman and about Batman AND Superman AND Wonder Woman, even if they had really disappointed me at the time.

By doing that, and it was almost like a Zen practice to clear my mind of all prior thoughts on the movies to watch them freshly in hopes of just appreciating they exist, now that we are confronting a world where DC Films are in big trouble and there's no guarantee they'll continue to happen.

And you know what? Superman DID smile in Man of Steel. He smiled a lot during it. I'd completely forgotten because I didn't respond to what I felt was unnecessary and unearned seriousness. Not because I didn't want serious movies: I DO. But because it had felt unearned. Watching it freshly with all the benefit of hindsight I don't even know how to step out of this closet but...

I really liked it.

I'd loathed it but by approaching it with zero expectations and trying to just appreciate what Snyder was trying to do on his terms and not mine, no matter how much I might have felt certain characters were very out of character according to how we've always known them in the comics and all other media. I gave all that up to see how he did at what he was trying to do. I decided to see anew, to confirm or its opposite, that I actually hated these movies and that they were irredeemable, and by doing so I became a convert. Like a total convert. Like a breaking out into a smile the first time bones started poking out of Doomsday convert. And I've always hated Doomsday, in the comics, in animation, just everywhere. I find him a worthless character but I geeked out.

Because after MoS I watched the extended BvS for a third time, trying again, but trying differently, meeting it on its level, and I really surprised myself with how much I enjoyed each of those two movies I've been so upset over and for years.

I hope we get extended Snyder AND extended theatrical/Whedon Justice League whenever they release whatever they're going to release. I want all of it. I'm ready to watch a Justice League that I might otherwise have hated by giving myself over to his vision. Same for Whedon.

I'm very disappointed over the damage done by those three movies but I've learned to appreciate them. It began as a thought experiment but I'm converted.

I stand by my earlier criticisms of both films, ALL of them. But I've also found a way to really appreciate them and I'm glad I made the extra effort.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I didn't even know if there was any kind of real head of the DC Films. It seemed like kind of ambiguous whether it was Johns spearheading anything or someone else. 
> 
> The DCEU doesn't really have a Kevin Feige yet.


Maybe worthwhile to check out the bleedingcool article from late October I posted above. Even if you don't like or believe BC as a source, Diane Nelson's social media stuff (quoted in the article) was proof that Johns had indeed been promoted, elevated above her, and that she felt very betrayed. I think you have to have that part of the puzzle to realize the nature of the demotion because the promotion that so upset Diane Nelson wasn't widely reported.

----------


## Buried Alien

> After all the dust has settled and having been through so many emotions re: Justice League and DCEU, I decided recently to pretend there had never been a DCEU, to clear my brain of what had happened, and watch Zack Snyder's MoS and BvS with absolutely NO expectations. And I did so trying VERY hard to just at least appreciate that there were movies out there about Superman and about Batman AND Superman AND Wonder Woman, even if they had really disappointed me at the time.
> 
> By doing that, and it was almost like a Zen practice to clear my mind of all prior thoughts on the movies to watch them freshly in hopes of just appreciating they exist, now that we are confronting a world where DC Films are in big trouble and there's no guarantee they'll continue to happen.
> 
> And you know what? Superman DID smile in Man of Steel. He smiled a lot during it. I'd completely forgotten because I didn't respond to what I felt was unnecessary and unearned seriousness. Not because I didn't want serious movies: I DO. But because it had felt unearned. Watching it freshly with all the benefit of hindsight I don't even know how to step out of this closet but...
> 
> I really liked it.
> 
> I'd loathed it but by approaching it with zero expectations and trying to just appreciate what Snyder was trying to do on his terms and not mine, no matter how much I might have felt certain characters were very out of character according to how we've always known them in the comics and all other media. I gave all that up to see how he did at what he was trying to do. I decided to see anew, to confirm or its opposite, that I actually hated these movies and that they were irredeemable, and by doing so I became a convert. Like a total convert. Like a breaking out into a smile the first time bones started poking out of Doomsday convert. And I've always hated Doomsday, in the comics, in animation, just everywhere. I find him a worthless character but I geeked out.
> ...


I wasn't totally onboard with MAN OF STEEL until my second or third viewing, and especially after I watched the movie on Blu Ray and was able to take time to process what I was seeing.

On the other hand, I was onboard with BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN:  DAWN OF JUSTICE right away.  Some of that movie disturbed me, but being disturbed isn't necessarily always a bad thing.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Soubhagya

> I don't know if this has been posted. This thread is a beast and difficult to keep up with. But if it hasn't been posted it's big news and surprising news:
> 
> https://www.cosmicbooknews.com/dceu-...azil-comic-con
> 
> Here's the essence though there's more at the link above:
> 
> 
> 
> I find this astounding. So much so that I wonder if the report is just wrong. It is from a reputable site for sure. I just feel like maybe someone spoke for WB that shouldn't have. That's how unbelievable I find it that ALL of the above movies are truly still being made.


I don't believe it. Its possible that they just gave the same slate as the same Comic Con a few months ago just to show that everything is fine. No studio continues as planned after a disaster in this level. (JL is going to earn less then Dr. Strange. I am trying to wrap my head around this). 

It maybe a placeholder slate before big changes. Or they are actually going ahead. According to my opinion they shall reboot. Four out of five divisive films would be a poor foundation. A couple of more divisive films could end the DCEU. But i guess if they are doing so try to make good films. Don't mess with the director's work. And  hope everything turns out fine.

----------


## Soubhagya

> After all the dust has settled and having been through so many emotions re: Justice League and DCEU, I decided recently to pretend there had never been a DCEU, to clear my brain of what had happened, and watch Zack Snyder's MoS and BvS with absolutely NO expectations. And I did so trying VERY hard to just at least appreciate that there were movies out there about Superman and about Batman AND Superman AND Wonder Woman, even if they had really disappointed me at the time.
> 
> By doing that, and it was almost like a Zen practice to clear my mind of all prior thoughts on the movies to watch them freshly in hopes of just appreciating they exist, now that we are confronting a world where DC Films are in big trouble and there's no guarantee they'll continue to happen.
> 
> And you know what? Superman DID smile in Man of Steel. He smiled a lot during it. I'd completely forgotten because I didn't respond to what I felt was unnecessary and unearned seriousness. Not because I didn't want serious movies: I DO. But because it had felt unearned. Watching it freshly with all the benefit of hindsight I don't even know how to step out of this closet but...
> 
> I really liked it.
> 
> I'd loathed it but by approaching it with zero expectations and trying to just appreciate what Snyder was trying to do on his terms and not mine, no matter how much I might have felt certain characters were very out of character according to how we've always known them in the comics and all other media. I gave all that up to see how he did at what he was trying to do. I decided to see anew, to confirm or its opposite, that I actually hated these movies and that they were irredeemable, and by doing so I became a convert. Like a total convert. Like a breaking out into a smile the first time bones started poking out of Doomsday convert. And I've always hated Doomsday, in the comics, in animation, just everywhere. I find him a worthless character but I geeked out.
> ...


I am happy to hear it. MoS is a good film. It has problems but it is unnecessarily hated by fans. I like it.  Anyone can see that watching it more number of times improves the experience.

BvS. Is not a good film. But it has some good stuff. I am more mixed here. But it is also hated much more then it deserves to be.

----------


## Kid A

batman v superman is absolutely a mess, but there's a great film buried underneath the awkwardly paced and badly edited movie that we got, especially when you watch the extended cut.  visually it's great and it's probably the most ambitious superhero comic book movie i've seen.  i like to think it will be a cult classic in the future (which is weird since it did really well). 

after getting pretty invested in the over-arching superman story between those two movies, i was pretty crushed at how justice league completely goes for a hollow marvelized soft reboot.

----------


## Confuzzled

Am I the only one who preferred BvS to JL? Superman's death and its aftermath in BvS felt forced and unearned, Snyder and co. were as usual clueless regarding how to utilize Lois, but Batman, Wonder Woman and yes, even Lex, really made the film overall enjoyable and captivating enough for me.

JL just felt hollow and a husk of a movie instead of an actual movie. I'll just pretend this was a prelude and that JL2 (if it happens and is good) will be the actual first Justice League film.

----------


## Robotman

So Johns is back to being the Chief Creative Officer and Berg has moved on to producing (which, according to the article, he’s been wanting to do for a while). Their run as the guiding force of the DCEU was incredibly short lived. Did they even get a year? Basically WB is punishing them for sticking with Snyder. Sounds like the higher ups wanted him gone after BvS but there were people fighting for him to stay (presumably Berg and Johns). 

Since DC films may get absorbed into WB’s regular film division I’m super worried that they’ll go back to putting people in charge of DC superhero flicks that know nothing about the source material. Then we end up with movies like Catwoman and Batman & Robin. Just reminds me of Kevin Smith’s retelling of his experience with the Jon Peters, producer of the abandoned Superman Lives. He demanded that Superman fight a giant spider and that Brainiac have a stereotypical gay sidekick. Oy. 




> The bolding above is my feeling about every one of these films. WB has so much riding on them working out and with Snyder no longer in charge, which we know now they were VERY resistant to after BvS, which I imagine had a lot to do with the Frankensteining of Justice League, hopefully they have also learned the lesson to trust their directors and GTF out of the way. I wasn't happy with Snyder's DC movies. That's well known here by now (though I have a personal update on that topic to come in another post, sooner than later) but the WORST thing is to hire an artist and not let him do his job. If you're going to trust someone, you freaking trust them. You don't try to micromanage because it has never, to the best of my knowledge, improved a film sufficiently to make it a success in maybe all of film history. It never works to do that.
> 
> And it does seem like once Snyder is gone they'll be willing to do that. The now infamous Variety article made it pretty plain that WB's main problem was with Snyder which makes sense of the fact that they meddled so much in his movies but didn't meddle at all with, say, Patty Jenkins. I think the freakout over Suicide Squad that led to unsuccessful meddling was all about them freaking out about the critical failure of BvS. I think it shocked the heck out of them and, given they agreed to let him continue with JL after it (so as not to start over with so much spent on pre-production - the costly error of "throwing good money after bad"), they ought to have let him make his movie.
> 
> I'm a theatre director by trade as many know here by now because I've said it a lot to make various points about my POV but in theatre the auteur is the playwright, the writer. In film the auteur is the director. And if you hire an auteur director with a strong POV it never works to try to "manage" that. You can't do it effectively in theatre either but my point is that it's so much more true in film than in, for example, theatre.
> 
> At this point Snyder's just gone and there's no use in rehashing that. It's been done to death from all possible points of view. I just hope that WB has learned to get out of the way of their directors. I bolded the section of the post I quoted because that's it. That's the bottom line. Great creators make great movies (and plays and comics and all art). Period. Studio executives only know how to freak out about the latest thing that happened and interfere or opt to trust the directors they hire.
> 
> If they needed to mess with Snyder's JL, they just should have fired him and ate the money and started over. What they did instead hurt everyone involved. I deeply hope they've learned this one critical lesson. It will be the difference between us having good and successful DC movies and not having them.


It doesn’t sound like WB has learned anything. Martin Campbell, director of Green Lantern, stated that making that film was a nightmare because it was “directed by committee.” So many WB executives wanting to make changes and add their own ideas. 
Jimmy Palmiotti once said he hates working in Hollywood because there are so many studio suits who need to justify their jobs. They all try to make suggestions to show that their jobs are important.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So Johns is back to being the Chief Creative Officer and Berg has moved on to producing (which, according to the article, he’s been wanting to do for a while). Their run as the guiding force of the DCEU was incredibly short lived. Did they even get a year? Basically WB is punishing them for sticking with Snyder. Sounds like the higher ups wanted him gone after BvS but there were people fighting for him to stay (presumably Berg and Johns).


One of Snyder's defenders was apparently Christopher Nolan himself, which was why the higher ups relented out of respect. I dunno, I don't blame the execs here. It would have been better to professionally part ways with Snyder before hand instead of butchering his movies. Snyder is supposed to be a great guy personally which was why he had such staunch support but this was one of the times people should have separated the professional from the personal. 

Also, I'm not sure if Johns was one of Snyder's defenders. Didn't he say in an interview a few months back that he wanted Man of Steel to have a lighter tone but his suggestions were vetoed? Some Snyder fans were up in arms about him "throwing Zack under the bus" like that.




> Since DC films may get absorbed into WB’s regular film division I’m super worried that they’ll go back to putting people in charge of DC superhero flicks that know nothing about the source material. Then we end up with movies like Catwoman and Batman & Robin. Just reminds me of Kevin Smith’s retelling of his experience with the Jon Peters, producer of the abandoned Superman Lives. He demanded that Superman fight a giant spider and that Brainiac have a stereotypical gay sidekick. Oy.


That was ages ago and most of the people working at the studio then have already been let go. 




> It doesn’t sound like WB has learned anything. Martin Campbell, director of Green Lantern, stated that making that film was a nightmare because it was “directed by committee.” So many WB executives wanting to make changes and add their own ideas. 
> Jimmy Palmiotti once said he hates working in Hollywood because there are so many studio suits who need to justify their jobs. They all try to make suggestions to show that their jobs are important.


That was some time back too and some people in charge back then have been released too. The fact remains that WB gives creative freedom to directors and writers when they are confident in their vision (the Nolan Bat trilogy and Wonder Woman). Also let's not forget that WB is not exclusively in the business of making DC films. All of their theatrical releases in 2017 were perfectly fine except for two (Guy Ritchie's King Arthur movie and Justice League). Their Nolan, Rowling, James Wan horror movies, and experimental blockbuster fare like Mad Max: Fury Road have also been some of the best mainstream Hollywood had to offer in recent years. So let's not overreact and paint them as nothing more than a bunch of bumbling micromanagers yet.

----------


## Robotman

> One of Snyder's defenders was apparently Christopher Nolan himself, which was why the higher ups relented out of respect. I dunno, I don't blame the execs here. It would have been better to professionally part ways with Snyder before hand instead of butchering his movies. Snyder is supposed to be a great guy personally which was why he had such staunch support but this was one of the times people should have separated the professional from the personal. 
> 
> Also, I'm not sure if Johns was one of Snyder's defenders. Didn't he say in an interview a few months back that he wanted Man of Steel to have a lighter tone but his suggestions were vetoed? Some Snyder fans were up in arms about him "throwing Zack under the bus" like that.
> 
> 
> 
> That was ages ago and most of the people working at the studio then have already been let go. 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s true. WB actually had a great year with some pretty creative films. Justice League’s failure was so glaring that it kind of overshadowed the fact that the studio had a record year for profits. I believe they crossed the $5 billion mark. Here’s hoping that they attach some truly brilliant directors to their other DC films and let them create what they envisioned. 

Now that you mention Johns possibly not being behind Snyder I do recall him championing a “lighter more hopeful tone” for the DCEU around the time of Wonder Woman’s release(right around the time DC was doing the same thing with Rebirth). It did seem like a subtle shot at Snyder’s vision. Maybe his demotion is just a result of Berg and others backing Snyder. He personally may not have been a fan of Snyder’s DCEU but he happened to be connected with the people making these decisions. WB is done with allowing DC entertainment to police itself so it’s being brought into the regular film division. I still think that someone like Johns is very necessary to keep them honest and respect the source material.

----------


## Samm

I think WB has to be disappointed. If JL had performed to expectations, 2017 would have easily crossed 6 billion for them and set their new company record. Maybe 2019 will do that for them. That year has It 2, WW 2, Shazam and likely SS2.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That’s true. WB actually had a great year with some pretty creative films. Justice League’s failure was so glaring that it kind of overshadowed the fact that the studio had a record year for profits. I believe they crossed the $5 billion mark. Here’s hoping that they attach some truly brilliant directors to their other DC films and let them create what they envisioned. 
> 
> Now that you mention Johns possibly not being behind Snyder I do recall him championing a “lighter more hopeful tone” for the DCEU around the time of Wonder Woman’s release(right around the time DC was doing the same thing with Rebirth). It did seem like a subtle shot at Snyder’s vision. Maybe his demotion is just a result of Berg and others backing Snyder. He personally may not have been a fan of Snyder’s DCEU but he happened to be connected with the people making these decisions. WB is done with allowing DC entertainment to police itself so it’s being brought into the regular film division. I still think that someone like Johns is very necessary to keep them honest and respect the source material.


He's still serving in the advisor position. I've always had my doubts about him playing a Kevin Feige-esque role for DCEU though. I mean, there definitely were worse choices than him but I didn't know if he had Feige's winning mixture of business acumen, creative instinct and crisp vision which propelled the MCU characters and movies further. 

I don't know, I think Feige is one of a kind so I don't even know if they need a Feige. Ultimately their revised plan to make the films more "director driven" and just loosely connect the films together seemed like the better approach for DC's films. But for that to work, they _need_ to properly gauge and realize which directors and writers are the right fit for the character or project at hand. Zack Snyder, despite being incredibly hard-working, pleasant to work with and devoted to the characters, unfortunately did not have a vision that aligned with what most people had in mind. I also think they need to stop rehiring mediocre writers like David Goyer, whose only good work is when he is collaborating with far better creators like the Nolan brothers.

----------


## Johnny

Johns never had a Feige-type role, for all intents and purposes he was a PR puppet with producer credit. To my knowledge the aspects Johns was more hands-on involved in was helping with the WW script, co-writing The Batman script with Affleck before the latter stepped down, co-writing the WW2 script with Jenkins now and helping bring in Whedon for the JL reshoots that Tsujihara demanded after he didn't like Zack Snyder's original cut. Also, Johns never stopped being the CCO, he was just going to focus more on the movies as opposed to the comics, that's why he wasn't going to answer to Diane Nelson anymore. Going forward, I doubt Johns' role would change that much, whether he's getting a producer credit or not. The way I see it, he is sort of a "secret weapon"-type in the end-game, he would still be the comics guy helping guide things as far as character structure is concerned when working with a team and throw out the history and landmarks of the characters. But as far as the actual film architecture goes, I doubt he ever had anything to do without politicing the executives. That's why Jon Berg was there in the first place, WB chose one of their own, instead of giving Johns the keys to the city. Frankly, Johns being an advisor is a better option anyway, because comics and movies aren't the same thing. We saw how that turned out with Frank Miller.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> After all the dust has settled and having been through so many emotions re: Justice League and DCEU, I decided recently to pretend there had never been a DCEU, to clear my brain of what had happened, and watch Zack Snyder's MoS and BvS with absolutely NO expectations. And I did so trying VERY hard to just at least appreciate that there were movies out there about Superman and about Batman AND Superman AND Wonder Woman, even if they had really disappointed me at the time.
> 
> By doing that, and it was almost like a Zen practice to clear my mind of all prior thoughts on the movies to watch them freshly in hopes of just appreciating they exist, now that we are confronting a world where DC Films are in big trouble and there's no guarantee they'll continue to happen.
> 
> And you know what? Superman DID smile in Man of Steel. He smiled a lot during it. I'd completely forgotten because I didn't respond to what I felt was unnecessary and unearned seriousness. Not because I didn't want serious movies: I DO. But because it had felt unearned. Watching it freshly with all the benefit of hindsight I don't even know how to step out of this closet but...
> 
> I really liked it.
> 
> I'd loathed it but by approaching it with zero expectations and trying to just appreciate what Snyder was trying to do on his terms and not mine, no matter how much I might have felt certain characters were very out of character according to how we've always known them in the comics and all other media. I gave all that up to see how he did at what he was trying to do. I decided to see anew, to confirm or its opposite, that I actually hated these movies and that they were irredeemable, and by doing so I became a convert. Like a total convert. Like a breaking out into a smile the first time bones started poking out of Doomsday convert. And I've always hated Doomsday, in the comics, in animation, just everywhere. I find him a worthless character but I geeked out.
> ...


You and I are in the exact same boat, sir, and I did the exact same thing you did. I shelved my expectations and viewed those movies again for what they were instead of what I wanted them to be and was shocked at how much they grew on me.

They still have undeniable problems, but I either reconciled them through taking a harder look at the narrative or simply didn't let them bother me any more. Heck, I've even started to come around a little bit on Eisenberg's Luthor: not what what he was in BvS but for what he could become *spoilers:*
based on _Justice League's_ post-credits scene
*end of spoilers*.

And I agree in that I want as many different cuts of _Justice League_ as possible: theatrical, extended theatrical, Snyder, the whole nine. If they can put out what seemed like a half dozen different cuts of _Watchmen_, the least they can do is give us two more cuts of _Justice League_.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You and I are in the exact same boat, sir, and I did the exact same thing you did. I shelved my expectations and viewed those movies again for what they were instead of what I wanted them to be and was shocked at how much they grew on me.


IMO, as a comic-book fan, watching a CBM or television show without any expectations is the way to go, since *none* of them completely adhere to the source material. I just take it for granted it's a different universe and proceed from there.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I don't understand how WB can think Suicide Squad 2 is a good idea. The first one was terrible, and like BvS, it made close to $800 worldwide but people walked out disappointed. So just like JL, people will be associating SS2 with its flawed predecessor. And unlike JL, another Suicide Squad movie does very, very little for solidifying the rocky foundation of the DCEU. There will be no Katana, Captain Boomerang or even Deadshot spinoffs from this---nor should there be. WB should scratch SS2 from the list, replace it with a Superman solo film and not call it MOS 2 but rather just Superman.

----------


## maxmcco

> I don't understand how WB can think Suicide Squad 2 is a good idea. The first one was terrible, and like BvS, it made close to $800 worldwide but people walked out disappointed. So just like JL, people will be associating SS2 with its flawed predecessor. And unlike JL, another Suicide Squad movie does very, very little for solidifying the rocky foundation of the DCEU. There will be no Katana, Captain Boomerang or even Deadshot spinoffs from this---nor should there be. WB should scratch SS2 from the list, replace it with a Superman solo film and not call it MOS 2 but rather just Superman.


100% agree. SS2 needs to be scrapped.That franchise has no goodwill built up from the first one and will likely perform similarly to Justice League. They can't afford another failure. They need to disassociate Margot Robbie's Harley from Suicide Squad if they want to capitalize on her popularity. Similarly, I really hope the Wonder Woman IP hasn't been tarnished too badly by JL.

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## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> I don't understand how WB can think Suicide Squad 2 is a good idea. The first one was terrible, and like BvS, it made close to $800 worldwide but people walked out disappointed. So just like JL, people will be associating SS2 with its flawed predecessor. And unlike JL, another Suicide Squad movie does very, very little for solidifying the rocky foundation of the DCEU. There will be no Katana, Captain Boomerang or even Deadshot spinoffs from this---nor should there be. WB should scratch SS2 from the list, replace it with a Superman solo film and not call it MOS 2 but rather just Superman.


I agree wholeheartedly, though I never got around to watching _Suicide Squad_, so I can't argue as to its quality (or lack thereof). But WB should scrap it and put a new Superman movie into production.

If there was one thing _Justice League_ was given positive marks for ... it would be Wonder Woman. But if there were *two* things it got positive marks for, it would be Wonder Woman and Superman. This Superman has now been accepted by the mass audience, so why not use him? It makes no sense to me why they don't.

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## Buried Alien

> IMO, as a comic-book fan, watching a CBM or television show without any expectations is the way to go, since *none* of them completely adhere to the source material. I just take it for granted it's a different universe and proceed from there.


The 1966 BATMAN TV series might have been the closest an adaptation has captured the spirit of the comic books, but that's only because the comics themselves at the times were purposely modeled on the show.   :Smile: 

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

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## Osiris-Rex

> I agree wholeheartedly, though I never got around to watching _Suicide Squad_, so I can't argue as to its quality (or lack thereof). But WB should scrap it and put a new Superman movie into production.
> 
> If there was one thing _Justice League_ was given positive marks for ... it would be Wonder Woman. But if there were *two* things it got positive marks for, it would be Wonder Woman and Superman. This Superman has now been accepted by the mass audience, so why not use him? It makes no sense to me why they don't.


Man of Steel did worse than Suicide Squad at the box office. And Suicide Squad didn't even have China. If Suicide Squad 2 can get China it should do well.  Meanwhile Superman did nothing for Justice League
so I can't see why WB would want to scrap SS2 in favor of a MoS2.  Especially in that SS2 will have a different director and writer but still have fan favorites Harley Quinn and Deadshot in it. Just correct the
places that SS went wrong and keep what it did right.

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## Osiris-Rex

> The 1966 BATMAN TV series might have been the closest an adaptation has captured the spirit of the comic books, but that's only because the comics themselves at the times were purposely modeled on the show.


The Supergirl TV series is also the closest adaptation to the spirit of the comic books.  But the Supergirl comic books themselves are now also modeled on the TV show.   :Smile: 
But even before that, of all the CW DC shows, Supergirl feels the most like a Silver Age comic book brought to life, with maybe the first season of Flash being a close second.

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## The Darknight Detective

> The 1966 BATMAN TV series might have been the closest an adaptation has captured the spirit of the comic books, but that's only because the comics themselves at the times were purposely modeled on the show.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Very true, BA, as was the case regarding _The Adventures of Superman_ where many of the stories in the comics were identical to those seen on television.

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## Buried Alien

> Very true, BA, as was the case regarding _The Adventures of Superman_ where many of the stories in the comics were identical to those seen on television.


Except for the decided lack of superpowered villains, aliens, robots, monsters, etc., on the TV series.  They could only do so much on 1950s TV, but I think Superman in the 50s comics was dealing with quite a few superpowered threats.

I'm really surprised that during the entire run of the TV series, they NEVER tried to bring Luthor into it.  

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

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## The Darknight Detective

> Except for the decided lack of superpowered villains, aliens, robots, monsters, etc., on the TV series.  They could only do so much on 1950s TV, but I think Superman in the 50s comics was dealing with quite a few superpowered threats.
> 
> I'm really surprised that during the entire run of the TV series, they NEVER tried to bring Luthor into it.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Agreed. Instead, it seemed we got Herb Vigran...



... (whom I loved, BTW) in every other episode.  :Big Grin:

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## Krypto's Fleas

> Man of Steel did worse than Suicide Squad at the box office. And Suicide Squad didn't even have China. If Suicide Squad 2 can get China it should do well.  Meanwhile Superman did nothing for Justice League
> so I can't see why WB would want to scrap SS2 in favor of a MoS2.  Especially in that SS2 will have a different director and writer but still have fan favorites Harley Quinn and Deadshot in it. Just correct the
> places that SS went wrong and keep what it did right.


What exactly did it do right? Also, it's pretty unfair to compare MOS to any film from BvS and after since MOS came out in a state of ambiguity where people didn't know if it was a larger universe movie or not. A big part of the hype behind the first SS was that it was the second entry into the DCEU and was meant to expand the universe significantly, which it really didn't do.

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## Krypto's Fleas

> Except for the decided lack of superpowered villains, aliens, robots, monsters, etc., on the TV series.  They could only do so much on 1950s TV, but I think Superman in the 50s comics was dealing with quite a few superpowered threats.
> 
> I'm really surprised that during the entire run of the TV series, they NEVER tried to bring Luthor into it.  
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


That is amazing.

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## El_Gato

> 100% agree. SS2 needs to be scrapped.*That franchise has no goodwill built up from the first one* and will likely perform similarly to Justice League. They can't afford another failure. They need to disassociate Margot Robbie's Harley from Suicide Squad if they want to capitalize on her popularity. Similarly, I really hope the Wonder Woman IP hasn't been tarnished too badly by JL.


And Superman does? From where I'm standing, Superman has had 4 underperforming, divisive to critically panned solo movies in a row (5 if you count BVS). A Man of Steel sequel would also, hypothetically, suffer for the sins of its predecessors, just like you and others claim SS would. Only difference is that MOS2 would fall harder since it's predecessor got a China release and still underperformed, SS at least has China as crutch and Harley is incredibly popular (arguably moreso than Superman at the moment).

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## maxmcco

> And Superman does? From where I'm standing, Superman has had 4 underperforming, divisive to critically panned solo movies in a row (5 if you count BVS). A Man of Steel sequel would also, hypothetically, suffer for the sins of its predecessors, just like you and others claim SS would. Only difference is that MOS2 would fall harder since it's predecessor got a China release and still underperformed, SS at least has China as crutch and Harley is incredibly popular (arguably moreso than Superman at the moment).


I totally agree with you about Superman. That IP needs a serious rest. Bring on Shazam!  :Big Grin:

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## SiegePerilous02

> And Superman does? From where I'm standing, Superman has had 4 underperforming, divisive to critically panned solo movies in a row (5 if you count BVS). A Man of Steel sequel would also, hypothetically, suffer for the sins of its predecessors, just like you and others claim SS would. Only difference is that MOS2 would fall harder since it's predecessor got a China release and still underperformed, SS at least has China as crutch and Harley is incredibly popular (arguably moreso than Superman at the moment).


I don't know if we can say the Superman property has no good will built into it already. It seems general audiences WANT a good Superman movie, they just haven't been thrilled with what they've been offered so far. The hype surrounding BvS had a lot to do with the two headlining characters, and the backlash was due to not living up to it. JL has been panned, but audiences apparently liked what they saw of Superman. If they make a good Superman movie with Cavill, and it's embraced by critics, people will go see it as long as they are assured they won't waste their money again. 

Outside of Harley and the Joker, Suicide Squad doesn't have any characters that were heartily embraced/already popular. They could probably do a solo Harley Quinn movie and be more guaranteed a success.




> I totally agree with you about Superman. That IP needs a serious rest. Bring on Shazam!


Why not have both?

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## Soubhagya

> And Superman does? From where I'm standing, Superman has had 4 underperforming, divisive to critically panned solo movies in a row (5 if you count BVS). A Man of Steel sequel would also, hypothetically, suffer for the sins of its predecessors, just like you and others claim SS would. Only difference is that MOS2 would fall harder since it's predecessor got a China release and still underperformed, SS at least has China as crutch and Harley is incredibly popular (arguably moreso than Superman at the moment).


SS 2 could be made. But i don't see why a Superman film shall not be made. If we say that people did not want to see Superman in Justice League, we can similarly say the same with Batman as well as Wonder Woman too. They were also in the film. One can even argue that he was 'absent' in marketing and his role is small. People are fed up off DCEU as a whole.

SR was certified fresh. Made more then Batman Begins even after being so boring. MoS was the second highest grossing superhero origin film (at that time) when it was released amidst a packed and competitive summer. SS had the advantage of being the last big film that summer. Its Cinemascore is A- (SS has B+). And it actually has a similar weekend multiplier as Suicide Squad. (MoS 291/116 = 2.5X; SS 325/133 = 2.44X). Critically (55 RT to 26 RT). BvS opened so huge because it had _both_ Superman and Batman.

WB shall make better plans. Not every film is guaranteed to make 800 million even with Superman. A good film with Superman can do well. But at this moment i doubt any DCEU film can do well.

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## maxmcco

> Why not have both?


Because the Superman IP has been damaged and needs a rest. The last four movies he's appeared in have not been well received.

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## Soubhagya

> Because the Superman IP has been damaged and needs a rest. The last four movies he's appeared in have not been well received.


Or just recast him. Seems to have worked for Spider-man, Hulk as well as Batman.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Or just recast him. Seems to have worked for Spider-man, Hulk as well as Batman.


I don’t think people have an issue with the casting. In fact, I think most people actually like Cavill as Superman. It’s more so the directing of the films that they’ve taken issue with.

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## Krypto's Fleas

> Because the Superman IP has been damaged and needs a rest. The last four movies he's appeared in have not been well received.


You're being dramatic. The last 4? First off, Superman Returns had a RT score in the mid 70's and was certified fresh. Second, half of those "four" were released prior to 1990---which means you could be 27 years old and not been old enough to have seen those films in theaters. In other words, those are irrelevant. And in the event that you are somehow counting Justice League and Batman v Superman as examples of the Superman IP being damaged, then I suppose Wonder Woman's IP is damaged and needs a rest too since she was in those movies as much, if not more, than Superman. 

I have no problem with Shazam hitting theaters. Don't know why you feel the need to over accentuate points to make it seem like Superman needs to be shelved for a while. 

By the way, guess who's going to be supporting Shazam's big screen debut?

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## Barbatos666

Well I do believe the Superman IP does indeed need a rest because DCEU has damaged him but SS 2 outright does not deserve to be made period. That film will crash and if WB aren't careful it could well crash HQ with it.

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## Jokerz79

> Well I do believe the Superman IP does indeed need a rest because DCEU has damaged him but SS 2 outright does not deserve to be made period. That film will crash and if WB aren't careful it could well crash HQ with it.


Don't worry WB will be doing their usual song and dance of

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## El_Gato

> Well I do believe the Superman IP does indeed need a rest because DCEU has damaged him but SS 2 outright does not deserve to be made period. That film will crash and if WB aren't careful it could well crash HQ with it.


Why will it crash? It has a different director, different script writers and way more time in pre-production than what was afforded to the first film. The franchise also has some popular actors attached to it, so all it needs is a good trailer and good reviews (very likley given O'Connors track record). 

SS made a ton of money, so of course it deserves a sequel! WB is a business after all.

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## Barbatos666

The money argument doesn't hold imo. It made as much money as it could so I dont think SS 2 has anywhere to go but down. The same happened to JL after BVS. Similarly JL also had Whedon and light tone and positive Johns/Berg PR. Will Smith, Harley and Joker were the biggest draws of the first film. Joker likely wont return and if he does they're just wasting the character besides the novelty is gone now. Even Leto got a mixed response. Harley can be adjusted somewhere else easily which makes the film a Will Smith showcase. Now I'm a fan of Smith and Deadshot but SS 2 wont have much gas in the tank. Even good reviews will have the obstacle of fighting away the bad rep. Overall I dont it see it making money over the first one.

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## BatmanJones

> Thats true. WB actually had a great year with some pretty creative films. Justice Leagues failure was so glaring that it kind of overshadowed the fact that the studio had a record year for profits. I believe they crossed the $5 billion mark. Heres hoping that they attach some truly brilliant directors to their other DC films and let them create what they envisioned. 
> 
> Now that you mention Johns possibly not being behind Snyder I do recall him championing a lighter more hopeful tone for the DCEU around the time of Wonder Womans release(right around the time DC was doing the same thing with Rebirth). It did seem like a subtle shot at Snyders vision. Maybe his demotion is just a result of Berg and others backing Snyder. He personally may not have been a fan of Snyders DCEU but he happened to be connected with the people making these decisions. WB is done with allowing DC entertainment to police itself so its being brought into the regular film division. I still think that someone like Johns is very necessary to keep them honest and respect the source material.


Jude Terror at bleedingcool, in reporting on the Variety story, said WB was pissed at Johns and Berg for pushing to keep Snyder for JL. The perceived slights are only that, perceived. Apparently Johns did back Snyder and it cost him. I've posted the BC story a few times in this thread now. But you have to put it together with another article I also posted earlier in which BC reports on Diane Nelson having felt betrayed and being very open about it on social media, so that wasn't open to question. That happened. Johns went from reporting to her to going over her head; he had been promoted. That was reported in late October (I already made basically this exact post in this thread only 1-2 days ago but with links), just before JL opened. Pair that with the Variety story, particularly as Jude Terror tells it, and it comes pretty clear that Johns was demoted for backing Snyder and the failure of JL. And BC has more credibility on this situation that is typically so (though they're usually right anyway) because they have the screen caps of Diane Nelson's very open social media posts shortly before she deleted all social media accounts.

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## BatmanJones

> You and I are in the exact same boat, sir, and I did the exact same thing you did. I shelved my expectations and viewed those movies again for what they were instead of what I wanted them to be and was shocked at how much they grew on me.
> 
> They still have undeniable problems, but I either reconciled them through taking a harder look at the narrative or simply didn't let them bother me any more. Heck, I've even started to come around a little bit on Eisenberg's Luthor: not what what he was in BvS but for what he could become *spoilers:*
> based on _Justice League's_ post-credits scene
> *end of spoilers*.
> 
> And I agree in that I want as many different cuts of _Justice League_ as possible: theatrical, extended theatrical, Snyder, the whole nine. If they can put out what seemed like a half dozen different cuts of _Watchmen_, the least they can do is give us two more cuts of _Justice League_.


How cool that you had the same experience I did! And yeah, just every scrap of Justice League. I want every scrap of it.

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## Soubhagya

JL was a kind of votes cast for DCEU. Just as Avengers was. The films prior to it were not earning a lot. But how much they were liked was proven by Avengers. JL's failure is not just its own. Its failure of DCEU as a whole. 

Looks like @Jokerz79 gives the best view. Not that they can't succeed from here by making those films. But it looks really difficult. 

I have some serious doubts on the list. They won't make a Superman film. But Justice League Dark appears to be a good bet. I am not hating Dark. It might turn out to be good. But its an odd thing to bet on when they are in a situation like this. Superman films earn a lot. If they made those films in a more reasonable budget, financially they were not bad except for JL. (But then JL had all of them. Batman and Wonder Woman too). I don't understand their rationale here.

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## El_Gato

> The money argument doesn't hold imo. It made as much money as it could so I dont think SS 2 has anywhere to go but down. The same happened to JL after BVS. Similarly JL also had Whedon and light tone and positive Johns/Berg PR. Will Smith, Harley and Joker were the biggest draws of the first film. Joker likely wont return and if he does they're just wasting the character besides the novelty is gone now. Even Leto got a mixed response. Harley can be adjusted somewhere else easily which makes the film a Will Smith showcase. Now I'm a fan of Smith and Deadshot but SS 2 wont have much gas in the tank. Even good reviews will have the obstacle of fighting away the bad rep. Overall I dont it see it making money over the first one.


Dude! You do realize Suicide Squad made 745 million world wide without China right? That's not something you ignore, it's something you give a sequel to and turn into a franchise!

You can't compare SS2 to JL because JL still had the same script writers, director and visionary as BVS. Plus it filmed right after BVS released. Whedon didn't come on until the very tail end of production. You can't expect a miracle in that situation. 

The argument you're making to dismiss a sequel to SS can also be made to dismiss a MOS2. So many fans want another Superman solo but his recent outings don't really justify it. WB is a business afterall, not a charity, they make these films to make money to appease stock holders/investors, not comic fans.

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## Soubhagya

> Dude! You do realize Suicide Squad made 745 million world wide without China right? That's not something you ignore, it's something you give a sequel to and turn into a franchise!
> 
> You can't compare SS2 to JL because JL still had the same script writers, director and visionary as BVS. Plus it filmed right after BVS released. Whedon didn't come on until the very tail end of production. You can't expect a miracle in that situation. 
> 
> The argument you're making to dismiss a sequel to SS can also be made to dismiss a MOS2. So many fans want another Superman solo but his recent outings don't really justify it. WB is a business afterall, not a charity, they make these films to make money to appease stock holders/investors, not comic fans.


Except that none except JL were poor as financial successes for Superman if you simply look at box office grosses. MoS 668 million. BvS 873 million. JL had all of them. Not just Superman.

Go ahead with SS2. If it succeeds. Excellent. If it fails fans would say we told you so. But just on the basis of box office grosses Superman should not get another chance is not very strong as an argument. Its a better bet then a lot of films in the list. 

I would not bet on any film though. DCEU is very shaky. Who knows how well the next films would do? JL with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman is in this position. It clearly shows that general audiences are giving up on the DCEU. There would have to be a series of good to great films one after another.

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## Robotman

Justice League was the anti-Avengers. The movies proceeding Avengers generated more and more hype for the eventual big teamup film. Which resulted in record box office numbers. The movies proceeding Justice League, not to mention the behind the scenes chaos, caused a lot of doubt in the DCEU and a divided fanbase (not counting Wonder Woman of course). Which led to a very disappointing opening weekend. 




> Jude Terror at bleedingcool, in reporting on the Variety story, said WB was pissed at Johns and Berg for pushing to keep Snyder for JL. The perceived slights are only that, perceived. Apparently Johns did back Snyder and it cost him. I've posted the BC story a few times in this thread now. But you have to put it together with another article I also posted earlier in which BC reports on Diane Nelson having felt betrayed and being very open about it on social media, so that wasn't open to question. That happened. Johns went from reporting to her to going over her head; he had been promoted. That was reported in late October (I already made basically this exact post in this thread only 1-2 days ago but with links), just before JL opened. Pair that with the Variety story, particularly as Jude Terror tells it, and it comes pretty clear that Johns was demoted for backing Snyder and the failure of JL. And BC has more credibility on this situation that is typically so (though they're usually right anyway) because they have the screen caps of Diane Nelson's very open social media posts shortly before she deleted all social media accounts.


Berg and Johns gambled on Snyder and they lost. Their decision cost WB hundreds of millions of dollars and badly tarnished the rep of DC Comics. Like with any job, if you screw up you have to face the consequences.

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## El_Gato

http://omegaunderground.com/2017/12/...-next-october/

Suicide Squad 2 starts filming in October 2018, Wonder Woman 2 in June 2018. Pretty reliable source too since they're the ones that revealed Shazam would start filming in February, before it was confirmed by the director. 

I wonder when it'll be released though. Maybe WB will move WW2 back to June and give SS2 the November date? June seems pretty light in terms of big movies (TS4 being the exception). If not, then 2020 it is.

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## Barbatos666

> Dude! You do realize Suicide Squad made 745 million world wide without China right? That's not something you ignore, it's something you give a sequel to and turn into a franchise!
> 
> You can't compare SS2 to JL because JL still had the same script writers, director and visionary as BVS. Plus it filmed right after BVS released. Whedon didn't come on until the very tail end of production. You can't expect a miracle in that situation. 
> 
> The argument you're making to dismiss a sequel to SS can also be made to dismiss a MOS2. So many fans want another Superman solo but his recent outings don't really justify it. WB is a business afterall, not a charity, they make these films to make money to appease stock holders/investors, not comic fans.


Again its a damaged franchise, much like BVS and Batman Forever were damaged before Batman & Robin and Justice League crashed those franchises. So like I said it made its money, there were some successful things about it like Harley whom they can utilize elsewhere while other successful thing like Joker have lost their novelty and not even part of this franchise.

I'm not saying Superman isn't damaged because he is which is why I advocated for rest but they can easily take Harley and give her a solo film or GCS, they can make Joker part of Batman. They can even use Deadshot in Deathstroke as a competing merc or as a hitman in Batman. And then you're left with what? Croc? Boomerang? Flag? who wants these guys to get another film? The SS as a brand has no value at this point, none. Its not like Guardians at all, either way I dont see SS 2 making much over its predecessor if at all and if it gets bad reviews then it will definitely crash. So good reviews will only make sure it barely hits its mark if at all while bad will destroy it, not a good investment. Its being made for Smith and I think that's all there is to it much like Adam is being made for Johnson.

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## El_Gato

Suicide Squad is such a damaged brand that it has an ongoing comic series, an animated film coming out next year, a rumored video game in development and a sequel that starts filming next year, with a new creative team btw. It's also an annual attraction at WB's amusement park (Six Flags) for Fright Fest. Clearly WB realizes the potential that exists and is going to take full advantage of it. A sequel will likely suffer an OW drop but if it's good, WOM and a China release will more than make up for that.

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## Osiris-Rex

> Suicide Squad is such a damaged brand that it has an ongoing comic series, an animated film coming out next year, a rumored video game in development and a sequel that starts filming next year, with a new creative team btw. It's also an annual attraction at WB's amusement park (Six Flags) for Fright Fest. Clearly WB realizes the potential that exists and is going to take full advantage of it. A sequel will likely suffer an OW drop but if it's good, WOM and a China release will more than make up for that.


And Suicide Squad 2 has an actual start filming date of October 2018 while there is no word of  a Man of Steel 2 ever even being made.  So no matter if people here want a SS2 movie or not, it is happening.
Whether it is a flop or not will only be decided after its theatrical run finishes.

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## Osiris-Rex

> Berg and Johns gambled on Snyder and they lost. Their decision cost WB hundreds of millions of dollars and badly tarnished the rep of DC Comics. Like with any job, if you screw up you have to face the consequences.


Geoff Johns is keeping his current job as DC Entertainment Chief Creative Officer. Toby Emmerich said that Jon Berg asked to be a producer six months ago, before anyone even knew
how JL would do at the box office.  How exactly are they being punished if one gets to keep his job and the other gets a job he wants?

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## Johnny Thunders!

I just read an article somewhere that said, 5 Films in, DCEU is more successful than Marvel studios were with their first five movies.

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## Robotman

> Suicide Squad is such a damaged brand that it has an ongoing comic series, an animated film coming out next year, a rumored video game in development and a sequel that starts filming next year, with a new creative team btw. It's also an annual attraction at WB's amusement park (Six Flags) for Fright Fest. Clearly WB realizes the potential that exists and is going to take full advantage of it. A sequel will likely suffer an OW drop but if it's good, WOM and a China release will more than make up for that.


I think people see Suicide Squad 2 as being in the same boat as Justice League. Yes BvS made money but the negative far outweighed the positive and the result was Justice League opening under 100 million and struggling to break even. Yes Suicide Squad made money but it was panned by critics and fans. It has a stigma that may not bode well for the sequel. They’re going to have to make a lot of changes to generate interest. While Justice League was actually tonally very different from BvS, it still had the same Snyder look and continued the BvS storyline, which obviously turned off a lot of people. 
Hopefully the Rock debuting as Black Adam can get people excited about Suicide Squad 2. I think they really need to change up the roster. Harley and Deadshot aren’t going anywhere but bring in some interesting new faces.
For me personally I would nerd out if characters like Solomon Grundy, Bronze Tiger, Parasite, Killer Frost, and Vixen (not a villain but she joined the team in Ostrander’s run) were added to the team.

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## Johnny

> Berg and Johns gambled on Snyder and they lost. Their decision cost WB hundreds of millions of dollars and badly tarnished the rep of DC Comics. Like with any job, if you screw up you have to face the consequences.


Gambled how? JL was already filming when they came on board, were they supposed to fire Snyder, shut down production and bring in new writers to re-write everything from scratch? People tend to forget how much money goes into all of this. Johns did not "tarnish" anything, he was a last-minute call who could have no hopes of salvaging anything at that point. Plus he was never given the power that Feige has at Marvel. If it was up to me, Johns wouldn't be more involved with the movies all that much in the first place, I'm not the biggest fan of his and the role of an advisor/consultant is exactly where he should be at, since movies and comics aren't the same thing(as we saw with Frank Miller), but to blame Johns for this is ridiculous. Tsujihara's inane mandates and the suits' boneheaded way of handling the production is what cost them those hundreds of millions of dollars.

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## Soubhagya

> I just read an article somewhere that said, 5 Films in, DCEU is more successful than Marvel studios were with their first five movies.


I hope you have not fallen for it. Yes its true that five films in DCEU has earned more money then MCU. But at what cost. Ask people about MCU. People who are not comic book fans. They will be happy and full of praise for MCU films. Ask about DCEU you will get ridicule or divisive answers. 

There are two problems with this thing. First DCEU started with the foundation laid by MCU. It was Avengers which made the whole world fall in love with comic book movies. Before that superhero film was just another genre. Most films used to gross in 300-400 million range if they were successful. With a few exceptions like Spider-man and Batman. After Avengers success most films earn a whole lot more because even people who won't read a comic book in life, love superheroes and became interested in watching the next comic book movie.

Second problem is the fact that to gauge the success of MCU one has to look at Avengers. Avengers was what they were building up to. The phase one films did not earn a lot. But those films earned a lot of goodwill and interest. The films were loved by people in general. Thus, Avengers was the build up which paid off big time. A vote by the people that we like your work and are interested to see more. Similarly, DCEU was building up to Justice League. The films may have earned more money but they were divisive in nature. Except for Wonder Woman no other film was a beloved one. Had the films been well received by the audience JL would have reached Avengers numbers. If not at least 1 billion was too easy for it. But that's what the numbers show. There is no faith or goodwill as far as general movie going audience is concerned for DCEU films. 

I say best way is to reboot the franchise. There are a lot of success stories with reboots. It would increase their chances of success by a lot. But it looks like they are interested to show that everything is all right. Its a really difficult task ahead. If they are wise they shall not expect to earn a lot of money. But if the next couple of films are actually good and loved by the audience the graph of box office grosses will grow up. And not go down as it is happening now.

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## maxmcco

Originally Posted by maxmcco  
Because the Superman IP has been damaged and needs a rest. The last four movies he's appeared in have not been well received.




> *You're being dramatic.* The last 4? First off, Superman Returns had a RT score in the mid 70's and was certified fresh. Second, half of those "four" were released prior to 1990---which means you could be 27 years old and not been old enough to have seen those films in theaters. In other words, those are irrelevant. And in the event that you are somehow counting Justice League and Batman v Superman as examples of the Superman IP being damaged, then I suppose Wonder Woman's IP is damaged and needs a rest too since she was in those movies as much, if not more, than Superman. 
> 
> I have no problem with Shazam hitting theaters. *Don't know why you feel the need to over accentuate points* to make it seem like Superman needs to be shelved for a while. 
> 
> *By the way, guess who's going to be supporting Shazam's big screen debut?*


The level of snark in your response to my very short and succinct post about my opinion on the Superman IP (which many people share) is what makes these boards feel toxic. I don't post here that often and now I remember why.

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## Confuzzled

> It was Avengers which made the whole world fall in love with comic book movies.


Superman '77, Batman '89, X-Men, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, Iron Man and The Dark Knight all say hi.

Also, the reboot is NOT happening. About five films are going into schedule or in the case of Aquaman, already wrapped. At best, Flashpoint will tinker the universe a bit like X-Men: Days of Future Past.

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## Confuzzled

> Suicide Squad is such a damaged brand that it has an ongoing comic series, an animated film coming out next year, a rumored video game in development and a sequel that starts filming next year, with a new creative team btw. It's also an annual attraction at WB's amusement park (Six Flags) for Fright Fest. Clearly WB realizes the potential that exists and is going to take full advantage of it. A sequel will likely suffer an OW drop but if it's good, WOM and a China release will more than make up for that.


Joker and Harley costumes were Halloween 2016's biggest winners (so big in fact that Harley Quinn was one of the top sellers even in 2017), the album was a certified smash, Warner Brothers credited the spike in their quarterly results solely due to Suicide Squad's success and its appeal among Hispanic audiences in particular, Joker, Harley and Deadshot are making cameos in an upcoming Spielberg blockbuster, and now the world's biggest star Dwayne Johnson himself is rumoured to appear in the sequel. The damage to the brand is irreversible.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Soubhagya

> Originally Posted by maxmcco  
> Because the Superman IP has been damaged and needs a rest. The last four movies he's appeared in have not been well received.
> 
> 
> 
> The level of snark in your response to my very short and succinct post about my opinion on the Superman IP (which many people share) is what makes these boards feel toxic. I don't post here that often and now I remember why.


A damaged IP is not helped much by shelving it. If ASM was not well received they tried something new with Spider-man: Homecoming. Batman is so well known because of Nolan. If something is not working try again. All Superman films since SR has earned quite a lot of money. He is one of the most popular heroes in the world regardless of any one's opinion. What's needed is a good film which is not dividing the fans and critics. And its alright.

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## Soubhagya

> Superman '77, Batman '89, X-Men, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, Iron Man and The Dark Knight all say hi.
> 
> Also, the reboot is NOT happening. About five films are going into schedule or in the case of Aquaman, already wrapped. At best, Flashpoint will tinker the universe a bit like X-Men: Days of Future Past.


Look at what comic book films were earning regularly before Avengers. We are living in a time when Doctor Strange can earn close to 700 million dollars. Something unthinkable before Avengers. Yes there were exceptions. As you kindly mentioned. But those were exceptions not the norm. Avengers changed the game so much that a pretty good 668 million for MoS was seen as mediocre. 

Its one way to do it. After Aquaman they should have rebooted it. They won't get a better chance if future films fail. I hope everything turns out well. But i sincerely believe that a reboot would have increased there chances of success by a lot.

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## maxmcco

> A damaged IP is not helped much by shelving it. If ASM was not well received they tried something new with Spider-man: Homecoming. Batman is so well known because of Nolan. If something is not working try again. All Superman films since SR has earned quite a lot of money. He is one of the most popular heroes in the world regardless of any one's opinion. What's needed is a good film which is not dividing the fans and critics. And its alright.


But with Spider-Man, Sony had to keep producing movies or the rights return to Marvel. Also, their first reboot was not as successful as the previous 3 movies.  WB is able to rest the Superman IP for a bit which will create some distance from the interpretations that weren't that well received. The other benefit is that Warner has so many other properties without all the baggage that have been virtually ignored. Billy Batson and the Legend of Shazam was supposed to come out years ago but was shelved because of Man of Steal according to John August. Superman has had a lot of opportunities in the past and will have many more in the future. The IP would benefit from a break and so would the development of the wider DC roster.
Finally, I always enjoy you well written and respectful posts. Who knows? You might convince me yet.

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## Barbatos666

> Suicide Squad is such a damaged brand that it has an ongoing comic series, an animated film coming out next year, a rumored video game in development and a sequel that starts filming next year, with a new creative team btw. It's also an annual attraction at WB's amusement park (Six Flags) for Fright Fest. Clearly WB realizes the potential that exists and is going to take full advantage of it. A sequel will likely suffer an OW drop but if it's good, WOM and a China release will more than make up for that.


The video game was shelved and JL comics sell even more than SS comics but that dudn't do anything for the film did it?
I'll wait to see what the animated film is about. For all we know its an adaptation of Tom King's Batman arc "I am Suicide". Batman is likely to be in this film, Harley will undoubtedly be the star and since its set in the established continuity there's a solid chance of Damian Wayne being in it. This brand is practically being carried by Batman characters.

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## Barbatos666

> Joker and Harley costumes were Halloween 2016's biggest winners (so big in fact that Harley Quinn was one of the top sellers even in 2017), the album was a certified smash, Warner Brothers credited the spike in their quarterly results solely due to Suicide Squad's success and its appeal among Hispanic audiences in particular, Joker, Harley and Deadshot are making cameos in an upcoming Spielberg blockbuster, and now the world's biggest star Dwayne Johnson himself is rumoured to appear in the sequel. The damage to the brand is irreversible.


Joker and Harley are not are not SS characters. Their popularity has nothing to do with this brand.
And Johnson rumor is just that a rumor. If this entire franchise is sustained only by Batman characters and hot shot celebs then its not really sustainable at all.

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## Carabas

> ...the world's biggest star Dwayne Johnson himself...


Wait, what?

He's not even the world's biggest rock.

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## Hilden B. Lade

http://deadline.com/2017/12/ian-chen...ce-1202225185/




> Fresh Off The Boat actor Ian Chen and Jovan Armand (Bella and the Bulldogs) have joined the cast of New Line’s David F. Sandberg-directed DC superhero film Shazam! The pic stars Zachary Levi as the title character, Asher Angel as Billy Batson, and Jack Dylan Grazer as Freddy Freeman. Chen will play Eugene and Armand will play Pedro, friends of Billy’s from a group home. Written by Henry Gayden and Darren Lemke, the film centers on Billy who can transform into an adult superhero by uttering the magic word “Shazam!” Peter Safran is producing. Paradigm reps both actors. Armand is also repped by Entertainment Lab.

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## FlashEarthOne

> I hope you have not fallen for it. Yes its true that five films in DCEU has earned more money then MCU. But at what cost. Ask people about MCU. People who are not comic book fans. They will be happy and full of praise for MCU films. Ask about DCEU you will get ridicule or divisive answers. 
> 
> There are two problems with this thing. First DCEU started with the foundation laid by MCU. It was Avengers which made the whole world fall in love with comic book movies. Before that superhero film was just another genre. Most films used to gross in 300-400 million range if they were successful. With a few exceptions like Spider-man and Batman. After Avengers success most films earn a whole lot more because even people who won't read a comic book in life, love superheroes and became interested in watching the next comic book movie.
> 
> Second problem is the fact that to gauge the success of MCU one has to look at Avengers. Avengers was what they were building up to. The phase one films did not earn a lot. But those films earned a lot of goodwill and interest. The films were loved by people in general. Thus, Avengers was the build up which paid off big time. A vote by the people that we like your work and are interested to see more. Similarly, DCEU was building up to Justice League. The films may have earned more money but they were divisive in nature. Except for Wonder Woman no other film was a beloved one. Had the films been well received by the audience JL would have reached Avengers numbers. If not at least 1 billion was too easy for it. But that's what the numbers show. There is no faith or goodwill as far as general movie going audience is concerned for DCEU films.



The first five MCU movies created a universe that got the general public and critics hyped for the next movie.  The first 3 DC movie kind of killed the potential for that kind of hype.

Being released between the success or Ragnarok and Last Jedi... JL and more importantly the DCEU is a very embarrassing topic for WB.  




> I think people see Suicide Squad 2 as being in the same boat as Justice League. Yes BvS made money but the negative far outweighed the positive and the result was Justice League opening under 100 million and struggling to break even. Yes Suicide Squad made money but it was panned by critics and fans. It has a stigma that may not bode well for the sequel. They’re going to have to make a lot of changes to generate interest. While Justice League was actually tonally very different from BvS, it still had the same Snyder look and continued the BvS storyline, which obviously turned off a lot of people. 
> Hopefully the Rock debuting as Black Adam can get people excited about Suicide Squad 2. I think they really need to change up the roster. Harley and Deadshot aren’t going anywhere but bring in some interesting new faces.
> For me personally I would nerd out if characters like Solomon Grundy, Bronze Tiger, Parasite, Killer Frost, and Vixen (not a villain but she joined the team in Ostrander’s run) were added to the team.


Suicide Squad is risky and they are gambling on Robbie's popularity.  They need a new director and a very clear new aesthetic to distinuigh itself from the original.

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## Soubhagya

> But with Spider-Man, Sony had to keep producing movies or the rights return to Marvel. Also, their first reboot was not as successful as the previous 3 movies.  WB is able to rest the Superman IP for a bit which will create some distance from the interpretations that weren't that well received. The other benefit is that Warner has so many other properties without all the baggage that have been virtually ignored. Billy Batson and the Legend of Shazam was supposed to come out years ago but was shelved because of Man of Steal according to John August. Superman has had a lot of opportunities in the past and will have many more in the future. The IP would benefit from a break and so would the development of the wider DC roster.
> Finally, I always enjoy you well written and respectful posts. Who knows? You might convince me yet.


Thank you so much.  :Smile:  You took some time to say that you enjoy my posts. It means a lot. I do put some work and thought behind my posts. Just as a lot of fans do here because we care for these characters. We all want DC cinematic universe to succeed. And our favorite characters to get the films which is loved by others just as well as ourselves. Our opinions may vary but we are all part of the same team. 

I don't know about Man of Steel and Legend of Shazam. I would have to look it up. The thing about a bit of a break is how much of a time period is this 'bit'. Yes a break can help. Also, it could be good if there's no break. Batman had a bit of a break between Batman and Robin and Batman Begins. About 7 or 8 years. On the other hand the gap between ASM 2 and Homecoming was 3 years. 2 if you count Civil War's cameo. Both are success stories. 

Spider-man should not have been rebooted after Spider-man 3. No one asked for a reboot. So, it was not so well received. Or perhaps it was the case like BvS. It earned a lot but audiences did not like it. Thus, the next one was not so much successful. It might be a combination of the two factors. The real failure however was the second film imo. The film which changed Sony's plans. Instead of focusing on the film itself, they tried to start a Spider-man cinematic universe. Something which Superman suffered from too. Its odd to call BvS and JL Superman films even if people say so. He is not treated as a character. Rather an important element of the stories. His presence in BvS and his absence in JL drive the plots of which he is scarcely a part of. If the films do not treat him as a character why would audience care for him at all? But enough of that rant.

My problem with the roster of films announced and any DC fan might have is the fact that apart from a few of those films like Shazam, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Batman, none of them have any directors attached to them. There is scarcely any work to show on their part and to believe that they are coming out at all. By showing that list they are basically saying we are interested to make these films.

And there is no Superman here. The break could be 3 years at least as Superman can't be made before 2020 at the earliest. It would be more then that. But is it wise to simply say we are not interested to make a Superman film? I don't see the rationale of the presence of Justice League Dark but absence of Superman. Not against the idea which might be appealing to a lot of fans but the fact that they honestly believe that a Justice League Dark has a bigger chance of success then any Superman film. It might. But its not something to bet on. 

Just show that we are interested to make a Superman film. Put that in the slate. Take 5 years if you will as all the films mentioned will take 3 to 4 years to come out at least. All those diverse films can come out with Superman too. I have said it before. Superman is a more safer bet then a number of these films. He's a worldwide icon. Recast him to remove the previous 'tainted' association. If you are unsure about Cavill just recast him. Andrew Garfield did not get a fair chance to play Spider-man. Even if he was a better Spider-man (and a far lesser Peter Parker) then Tobey Maguire. And make a film on him as a character with a reasonable budget for once. There's a decent chance of success.

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## maxmcco

My bad. It was actually Peter Segal, the director, that said Man of Steel killed Shazam. https://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-...vie-40868.html
John August, the writer, had a different explanation. https://johnaugust.com/2009/shazam-done

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## Johnny

> http://deadline.com/2017/12/ian-chen...ce-1202225185/


Clearly the movie will be based on Johns' take on the Marvel family, which of course isn't that surprising. I hope pre-Shazam Billy isn't that much of a jerk though. I wonder who's going to play Mary.

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## Buried Alien

> Clearly the movie will be based on Johns' take on the Marvel family, which of course isn't all that surprising. I wonder who's going to play Mary.


So five or six kids turning into Shazam rather than just Billy turning into Captain Marvel?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

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## Frontier

> Clearly the movie will be based on Johns' take on the Marvel family, which of course isn't that surprising. I hope pre-Shazam Billy isn't that much of a jerk though. I wonder who's going to play Mary.


I'm guessing Mary's probably already been adopted by this point, so she won't be with the initial group of kids.

I expect Billy's characterization will probably hue much closer to classic Billy then Johns' did. 




> So five or six kids turning into Shazam rather than just Billy turning into Captain Marvel?
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


In Johns' story Billy was able to give them all some of his powers for a bit and they all got Shazam costumes. 

It was never really expanded on past that.

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## Osiris-Rex

> My problem with the roster of films announced and any DC fan might have is the fact that apart from a few of those films like Shazam, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Batman, none of them have any directors attached to them. There is scarcely any work to show on their part and to believe that they are coming out at all. By showing that list they are basically saying we are interested to make these films.
> .


Suicide Squad 2 has Gavin O’Connor as director.  Batgirl has Joss Whedon as director.  Gotham City Sirens has David Ayer as director.

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## El_Gato

> The video game was shelved and JL comics sell even more than SS comics but that dudn't do anything for the film did it?
> I'll wait to see what the animated film is about. For all we know its an adaptation of Tom King's Batman arc "I am Suicide". Batman is likely to be in this film, Harley will undoubtedly be the star and since its set in the established continuity there's a solid chance of Damian Wayne being in it. This brand is practically being carried by Batman characters.


That is a lot of assumptions you're making there man. Anyway it's pointless to argue about it because Suicide Squad 2 is happening, and reportedly starts filming in October, so it's happening. 




> My problem with the roster of films announced and any DC fan might have is the fact that apart from a few of those films like Shazam, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Batman, none of them have any directors attached to them. There is scarcely any work to show on their part and to believe that they are coming out at all. By showing that list they are basically saying we are interested to make these films.


The only two films of the announced slate that don't have directors are Flashpoint, Justice League Dark and Green Lantern Corps, the rest have one. Even certain films that weren't on the slate have one.

*Announced Slate*
Aquaman- James Wan
Shazam- David L. Sandberg
Wonder Woman 2- Patty Jenkins
Suicide Squad 2- Gavin O'Connor
The Batman- Matt Reeves
Batgirl- Joss Whedon
Flashpoint- ???
Green Lantern Corps- ???
Justice League Dark- ???

*Rumored Films*
Nightwing- Chris McKay
Gotham City Sirens- David Ayer
Deathstroke- Manu Bennett
The Joker- Todd Phillips
Black Adam-???
Joker & Harley- ???
Man of Steel 2- ???
Cyborg- ???

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## Sirzechs

> But with Spider-Man, Sony had to keep producing movies or the rights return to Marvel. Also, their first reboot was not as successful as the previous 3 movies.  WB is able to rest the Superman IP for a bit which will create some distance from the interpretations that weren't that well received. The other benefit is that Warner has so many other properties without all the baggage that have been virtually ignored. Billy Batson and the Legend of Shazam was supposed to come out years ago but was shelved because of Man of Steal according to John August. Superman has had a lot of opportunities in the past and will have many more in the future. The IP would benefit from a break and so would the development of the wider DC roster.
> Finally, I always enjoy you well written and respectful posts. Who knows? You might convince me yet.


Honestly where does this logic come from that you have to rest a film franchise to repair it, the only reason that was a thing in the past was because Superhero films were a niche unlike now.

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## Buried Alien

> Honestly where does this logic come from that you have to rest a film franchise to repair it, the only reason that was a thing in the past was because Superhero films were a niche unlike now.


Yeah, I'd rather they not "rest" (that can last DECADES sometimes).  None of us is getting any younger and itchy trigger fingers on nukes in D.C. and Pyongyang mean we'd better get these movies out ASAP.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

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## maxmcco

> Honestly where does this logic come from that you have to rest a film franchise to repair it, the only reason that was a thing in the past was because Superhero films were a niche unlike now.


You rest a property so it isn't tainted by previous version upon relaunch. That is why Green Lantern is nowhere to be seen in Justice League. I get that fans might not like it, but it's Marketing 101. Timing is everything.

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## Sirzechs

> You rest a property so it isn't tainted by previous version upon relaunch. *That is why Green Lantern is nowhere to be seen in Justice League.* I get that fans might not like it, but it's Marketing 101. Timing is everything.


Are you sure about that......

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## Soubhagya

> Suicide Squad 2 has Gavin O’Connor as director.  Batgirl has Joss Whedon as director.  Gotham City Sirens has David Ayer as director.





> That is a lot of assumptions you're making there man. Anyway it's pointless to argue about it because Suicide Squad 2 is happening, and reportedly starts filming in October, so it's happening. 
> 
> 
> 
> The only two films of the announced slate that don't have directors are Flashpoint, Justice League Dark and Green Lantern Corps, the rest have one. Even certain films that weren't on the slate have one.
> 
> *Announced Slate*
> Aquaman- James Wan
> Shazam- David L. Sandberg
> ...


Okay. My bad. Should have looked it up. But one can fit in MoS 2 there. There are three films without a director. But anyway.

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## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

I honestly cannot believe they haven't done MoS 2 yet. If they hadn't insisted on rushing through a hackneyed Death of Superman adaptation (which it way too soon for, btw), we'd have had a sequel by now. Hopefully, if we get one now, though, we'll see a better take on the character.

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## El_Gato

> I honestly cannot believe they haven't done MoS 2 yet. If they hadn't insisted on rushing through a hackneyed Death of Superman adaptation (which it way too soon for, btw), we'd have had a sequel by now. Hopefully, if we get one now, though, we'll see a better take on the character.


It's quite simple really. Man of Steel underperformed, according to studio expectations. Probably why they added Batman (and Wonder Woman) in what was supposed to be Man of Steel 2. Of course on hindsight, that was also a bad idea because that film underperformed as well. 

In the DCEU, SS and WW are the only films that overperformed, probably why they're getting sequels.

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## Soubhagya

> My bad. It was actually Peter Segal, the director, that said Man of Steel killed Shazam. https://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-...vie-40868.html
> John August, the writer, had a different explanation. https://johnaugust.com/2009/shazam-done


Read both articles. John August is on point with the idea of WB to make more 'serious' films. So, its a combination of things. But if the execs can't see beyond the powers they aren't seeing clearly. Both can coexist. Whether in comics or in a cinematic universe. Shazam is different enough from Superman. A kid becomes as powerful as Superman by saying a magical word. The nature of his powers and demeanor is substantially different from Superman. Its sad that they can't see beyond the outward stuff which granted is similar. Hopefully they do Shazam right. Its something they should have done till now.




> It's quite simple really. Man of Steel underperformed, according to studio expectations. Probably why they added Batman (and Wonder Woman) in what was supposed to be Man of Steel 2. Of course on hindsight, that was also a bad idea because that film underperformed as well. 
> 
> In the DCEU, SS and WW are the only films that overperformed, probably why they're getting sequels.


Yes Mark Hughes from Forbes says it. Snyder had idea of bringing in Batman. And studio execs were not happy with the numbers. (What kind of plan is this if the first film in a franchise earning 650+ million is a disappointment!). They wanted Justice League to be made as fast as possible. It was supposed to make Avengers level of money. Thus, here we are. Ironically, Justice League may possibly gross less then Man of Steel. 

Hopefully WB learns to temper their expectations. Their numbers show a downturn. BO opening weekend shows interest in the franchise. And interest is waning. Only if the films are really good and not facing very stiff competition, a lesser opening can get enough money. Legs would be necessary going forward. They can't expect openings like BvS. Even SS numbers in opening looks difficult here. 

WB shall reduce their budgets too. If Ragnarok and Doctor Strange can be made for budgets like 180 million and 165 million respectively surely other films can be made like that. Such budgets make more profits. One can't expect Wonder Woman level numbers with every film. 

Its a really difficult road ahead. Made more difficult by not rebooting imo. If the films are good its not necessary that they would earn good amount of money. A film which does not divide the critics, fans and moviegoers is enough to be called a success even without big numbers. Batman Begins earned 373 million on a 150 million budget. But it was a success as it resonated with everyone. A series of films like that is good enough to bring DCEU back on track. If it fails i would be the one to say 'I told you so. You should have rebooted'. Hopefully, i am wrong.

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## Jokerz79

> It's quite simple really. Man of Steel underperformed, according to studio expectations. Probably why they added Batman (and Wonder Woman) in what was supposed to be Man of Steel 2. Of course on hindsight, that was also a bad idea because that film underperformed as well. 
> 
> In the DCEU, SS and WW are the only films that overperformed, probably why they're getting sequels.


It kills me his badly things have changed at the decision making level of WB for DC properties in only a decade. People tend to forget Batman Begins made less than Superman Returns but it got the good buzz and had a smaller budget so they trusted Nolan and it paid off big for them with Dark Knight and later Dark Knight Rises.

But the DCEU was a Cluster F since almost go now Man of Steel wasn't my cup of tea but it was a good movie. But since it didn't make Avengers money it was looked at like a disappointment which is ridiculous Avengers was the 6th film for Marvel it was building too it united all their characters so of course it would do gangbusters. But if you look at the phase one solo films Man of Steel did on par to better. But after that it all went down hill to putting everything including the sink into BvS, then messing with BvS in editing to get more run times, messing with SS in Editing, announcing films constantly with no teams in place which now has a cry wolf effect and no one cares, messing with Justice League in editing to the point there might be up to 4 cuts of the film Snyder's original vision, Snyder's revised cut after script changes due to BvS response, Whedon Cut, and now a ultimate Whedon cut or something for Blu-Ray's and DVDs. 

This whole thing has been a mess and it's all the WB's fault.

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## Black_Adam

> In the DCEU, SS and WW are the only films that overperformed, probably why they're getting sequels.


Yes SS may of got panned critically but it had a better multiplier then Civil War, which shows word of mouth was good enough that people went to see it in weeks 2, 3 & 4 not to mention Margot Robbie won a Critics Choice award for her role as Harley...

I have no problem with a grounded, black ops style Suicide Squad sequel which is true to the spirit of the Ostrander run, not sure why the hate.

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## El_Gato

> It kills me his badly things have changed at the decision making level of WB for DC properties in only a decade. People tend to forget Batman Begins made less than Superman Returns but it got the good buzz and had a smaller budget so they trusted Nolan and it paid off big for them with Dark Knight and later Dark Knight Rises.
> 
> But the DCEU was a Cluster F since almost go now Man of Steel wasn't my cup of tea but it was a good movie. But since it didn't make Avengers money it was looked at like a disappointment which is ridiculous Avengers was the 6th film for Marvel it was building too it united all their characters so of course it would do gangbusters. But if you look at the phase one solo films Man of Steel did on par to better. But after that it all went down hill to putting everything including the sink into BvS, then messing with BvS in editing to get more run times, messing with SS in Editing, announcing films constantly with no teams in place which now has a cry wolf effect and no one cares, messing with Justice League in editing to the point there might be up to 4 cuts of the film Snyder's original vision, Snyder's revised cut after script changes due to BvS response, Whedon Cut, and now a ultimate Whedon cut or something for Blu-Ray's and DVDs. 
> 
> This whole thing has been a mess and it's all the WB's fault.


You also have to acknowledge the budgets for the films as well. For instance:

*Batman Begins*
Budget: $150M
Total: $374.2M

*Superman Returns*
Budget: $204M
Total: $391.1M

Sure Superman Returns grossed about 17 million more than Batman Begins but it also cost 54 million more to make. Not to mention Returns didn't generate the amount of buzz/acclaim Begins did (That Joker card). Now for the DCEU:

*Man of Steel*
Budget: $225M
Total: $668M

*Suicide Squad*
Budget: $175M
Total: $745.6M (No China)

*Wonder Woman*
Budget: $149M
Total: $821.7M

Looking at those numbers, it's easy to see why WW and SS have sequels coming soon while MOS2 is in limbo. WB has a problem with budgets, keep them in the 150 range (like Aquaman and Wonder Woman) and away from the 200+ range, unless the earnings justify it! If MOS would have had a budget similar to WW then I'm almost certain we would have had a MOS2 by now.

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## Slowpokeking

Hope you guys like it!

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## Confuzzled

> Hope you guys like it!


Faora could be a great Justice League villain. Either as a Legion of Doom member or one of the Female Furies (Big Barda's replacement).

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## Barbatos666

> That is a lot of assumptions you're making there man. Anyway it's pointless to argue about it because Suicide Squad 2 is happening, and reportedly starts filming in October, so it's happening. 
> 
> The only two films of the announced slate that don't have directors are Flashpoint, Justice League Dark and Green Lantern Corps, the rest have one. Even certain films that weren't on the slate have one.
> 
> *Announced Slate*
> Aquaman- James Wan
> Shazam- David L. Sandberg
> Wonder Woman 2- Patty Jenkins
> Suicide Squad 2- Gavin O'Connor
> ...


Very true and dont get me wrong I'd love a proper SS in the vein of Ostrander run but these films are based on the modern comics from the New 52 era and onwards which completely defeats the point of SS. This property took unneeded C listers from different franchises and put them in life or death circumstanes which actually did lead to deaths.
Modern squad is a Harley showcase and once you factor Smith it becomes his showcase in the films too.
The franchise is a shadow of its former else and is pretty much piggybacking off the Batman franchise. Harley for instance makes no sense as a member of this team. She's too popular and instory wise why would anyone take her on field missions? She's unpredictable and useless at the same time.
So I really want to see a proper Squad just not the cheap crap its become now.

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## Slowpokeking

> Faora could be a great Justice League villain. Either as a Legion of Doom member or one of the Female Furies (Big Barda's replacement).


Maybe, I still prefer her to have a fight against WW

Do you like my trailer?

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## Slowpokeking

> You also have to acknowledge the budgets for the films as well. For instance:
> 
> *Batman Begins*
> Budget: $150M
> Total: $374.2M
> 
> *Superman Returns*
> Budget: $204M
> Total: $391.1M
> ...


MOS did quite good and got a lot of potential

----------


## golgi

MOS recouped a lot of its budget through promotional dollars even before the release of the movie.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Maybe, I still prefer her to have a fight against WW
> 
> Do you like my trailer?


She could fight Diana in a JL sequel  :Smile: 

Oh, you made the trailer? Great job then!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Confuzzled

I think MoS2 will still happen in time. Since MoS wasn't as big a success as say, SS and WW, the plan was to have Superman usher in the DCEU intro trilogy with BvS and JL following MoS. 

Now that that's out of the way, they can consider MoS2. Matthew Vaughn did say he was in talks a few months back. We may get some updates in the coming months, especially since Henry Cavill's portrayal of a more traditional Superman/Clark Kent was received as one of the positives, his awkward CGI erased moustache notwithstanding.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> She could fight Diana in a JL sequel 
> 
> Oh, you made the trailer? Great job then!


Sure I really wish to see that


Thanks!

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*WB Insider Thinks The Demotion of Geoff Johns Is An Injustice, Describes A Studio In Disarray:* http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/exclusi...s-an-injustice

----------


## Frontier

Billy in the movie will not be a "huge dickhead."

I'm guessing that means he won't be like New 52 Billy  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Confuzzled

> *WB Insider Thinks The Demotion of Geoff Johns Is An Injustice, Describes A Studio In Disarray:* http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/exclusi...s-an-injustice


Oh God, annoying Jett and his collaborators from Batman on Film. And now we are back to believing Johns was "scapegoated" because he "opposed Snyder" when the other day there was "news" that he was scapegoated because he "supported Snyder"? Lol.

The advisor role is something that better suits him anyway. And I have doubts about him contributing all that much to the Wonder Woman script. Most, if not all, of the aspects that I enjoyed seemed very reminiscent in tone of some of the stuff from Allan Heinberg's previous work. And Patty Jenkins has talked about the scenes that were her own ideas. So I'm not sure what were Johns's contributions in particular. 

This is just same old half-baked click bait. Unfortunately now that JL underperformed, we are in for a heap of this all the way until Aquaman releases next year.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Billy in the movie will not be a "huge dickhead."
> 
> I'm guessing that means he won't be like New 52 Billy .


Yay, some positive and actual news for a change.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## mace11

Anybody seen this?



> • WB reveals its (2nd time) Full Slate Of DC Extended Universe Films At Comic-Con Experience 2017 in Sao Paulo, Brazil. What happened to: Cyborg, Deathstroke, Gotham City Sirens, Harley Quinn, The Joker vs. Harley Quinn, Nightwing, the standalone Joker movie, Black Adam, and the long-rumored Justice League 2?


Collider Heroes 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRp2OgzEFTY

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

I think, for Justice League 2, they should just pretend as if the first one was a one-time thing and they didn't actually form the Justice League.

----------


## Carabas

> I think, for Justice League 2, they should just pretend as if the first one was a one-time thing and they didn't actually form the Justice League.


What Justice League 2?

----------


## ross61

> Anybody seen this?
> 
> Collider Heroes 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRp2OgzEFTY


It's the same slate as before

----------


## Kevin Street

> *WB Insider Thinks The Demotion of Geoff Johns Is An Injustice, Describes A Studio In Disarray:* http://www.elfanboy.com/blog/exclusi...s-an-injustice


I've got no idea if any of that is true, but hopefully it's not. Imo, the real, biggest problems with the DCEU are:

- Ever growing budgets.

- Every movie ends with a big fight against a CGI creature.

- Studio politics, which seem as inscrutable as anything that came out of the old USSR.

There are other problems like the overall mood of darkness and gloom and strange casting, but they're not as important to general audiences.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> What Justice League 2?


Hah! Very true. I guess it’s better to say, whatever team movie they decide to do next.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Billy in the movie will not be a "huge dickhead."
> 
> I'm guessing that means he won't be like New 52 Billy .


They must not have read New 52 Billy beyond like two pages, because he wasn't a dickhead in the slightest.

----------


## Sirzechs

> They must not have read New 52 Billy beyond like two pages, because he wasn't a dickhead in the slightest.


Sshhh let’s not go through this again, let the sunshine and rainbow squad have this one.

----------


## Sirzechs

93842026-F517-40BB-8865-FD2B9FB94580.jpg
Wonder Woman DVD sales are out and the comparisons got me thinking that if people hate these DC movies as much as the interwebs folk would like you to think why are they buying the home releases.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> 93842026-F517-40BB-8865-FD2B9FB94580.jpg
> Wonder Woman DVD sales are out and the comparisons got me thinking that if people hate these DC movies as much as the interwebs folk would like you to think why are they buying the home releases.


Because those movies still have fans, and people that skipped out on going to theater and opted to wait for the home release.

And let's look at home video sales in context to what they say about box office performance. Man of Steel has sold about five and a half million in home video. That's great for what it is, but it's also just 16% of Man of Steel's ticket sales. Batman v Superman's home video sales amount to about 10% of its ticket sales.

When less than 20% of the people that went to see these movies, go out and buy them on home video, that isn't a sign of general audiences loving these movies.

Home video sales aren't an answer for disappointing box office returns. They don't really say much one way or another.

----------


## Frontier

> They must not have read New 52 Billy beyond like two pages, because he wasn't a dickhead in the slightest.


Eh...he had a definite attitude problem across that story up until the very end. 

I'm not surprised they're steering clear of his New 52 characterization.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Because those movies still have fans, and people that skipped out on going to theater and opted to wait for the home release.
> 
> And let's look at home video sales in context to what they say about box office performance. Man of Steel has sold about five and a half million in home video. That's great for what it is, but it's also just 16% of Man of Steel's ticket sales. Batman v Superman's home video sales amount to about 10% of its ticket sales.
> 
> When less than 20% of the people that went to see these movies, go out and buy them on home video, that isn't a sign of general audiences loving these movies.
> 
> Home video sales aren't an answer for disappointing box office returns. They don't really say much one way or another.


Love your posts.  You're the number cruncher!  Great stuff...

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> *Eh...he had a definite attitude problem across that story up until the very end.* 
> 
> I'm not surprised they're steering clear of his New 52 characterization.


Agreed. There were multiple times he just seemed like a brat. Didn't he make one of the other kids cry at one point?

I prefer the optimistic Billy who's looks at life like its a gift as opposed to a burden. The disenchanted orphan is kind of a cliché characterization at this point.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Because those movies still have fans, and people that skipped out on going to theater and opted to wait for the home release.
> 
> And let's look at home video sales in context to what they say about box office performance. Man of Steel has sold about five and a half million in home video. That's great for what it is, but it's also just 16% of Man of Steel's ticket sales. Batman v Superman's home video sales amount to about 10% of its ticket sales.
> 
> When less than 20% of the people that went to see these movies, go out and buy them on home video, that isn't a sign of general audiences loving these movies.
> 
> Home video sales aren't an answer for disappointing box office returns. They don't really say much one way or another.


I agree. Fans are trying to say that people don't hate the films. But evidence is right in front of our eyes. Its a fact. Or else Justice League would not have earned less then Doctor Strange. 



As fans we shall be secure in our knowledge that if we love the films we love it. Films are subjective in nature. I love Justice League. But its not loved by all. Its fine. Just because i love something which is not loved by others does not make it a wrong opinion. However i wish they would make films which could appeal to me as well as the audiences and critics.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I agree. Fans are trying to say that people don't hate the films. But evidence is right in front of our eyes. Its a fact. Or else Justice League would not have earned less then Doctor Strange. 
> 
> 
> 
> As fans we shall be secure in our knowledge that if we love the films we love it. Films are subjective in nature. I love Justice League. But its not loved by all. Its fine. Just because i love something which is not loved by others does not make it a wrong opinion. However i wish they would make films which could appeal to me as well as the audiences and critics.


What evidence of hate ? This logic is really faulty and I can use two movies on the list to prove why. Suicide Squad holds a measly 26% ratings and made 745M at the Box office, the other hand Dr Strange holds a whooping 89% certified fresh score and made 677M, now when from the list of films I posted earlier Suicide Squad sold over a million units on its first week compared to Dr Strange 700K. Is this indicative of fans hating Dr Strange or does hate only apply to DC films  ?

----------


## Troian

> Attachment 59444
> Wonder Woman DVD sales are out and the comparisons got me thinking that if people “hate” these DC movies as much as the interwebs folk would like you to think why are they buying the home releases.


Even movies that flop at box office usually make up for it in dvd, streaming and merchandise. There are many ppl nowadays who wait for the dvd of a movie as well.

----------


## Soubhagya

> What evidence of hate ? This logic is really faulty and I can use two movies on the list to prove why. Suicide Squad holds a measly 26% ratings and made 745M at the Box office, the other hand Dr Strange holds a whooping 89% certified fresh score and made 677M, now when from the list of films I posted earlier Suicide Squad sold over a million units on its first week compared to Dr Strange 700K. Is this indicative of fans hating Dr Strange or does hate only apply to DC films  ?


Okay if they are loving DC films why aren't they coming to watch it in theaters? Surely more people shall come to watch Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman then Peter Quill, Gamora and Groot.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Okay if they are loving DC films why aren't they coming to watch it in theaters? Surely more people shall come to watch Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman then Peter Quill, Gamora and Groot.


So completely glossed over all I said to go back to the why aren't they coming to watch it? In this superhero climate the comic book stature of the heroes is irrelevant when characters like Spiderman which stands on the same level as Batman and Superman when it comes to merchandises and widespread appeal outside of movies and comics circle ends up grossing less than a movie featuring Peter Quill.

----------


## Troian

> What evidence of hate ? This logic is really faulty and I can use two movies on the list to prove why. Suicide Squad holds a measly 26% ratings and made 745M at the Box office, the other hand Dr Strange holds a whooping 89% certified fresh score and made 677M, now when from the list of films I posted earlier Suicide Squad sold over a million units on its first week compared to Dr Strange 700K. Is this indicative of fans hating Dr Strange or does hate only apply to DC films  ?


Just saying, just because it made money doesn't mean people don't hate it. Many people say Transformers movies are a cgi explosion fest and nothing to brag about story or character wise but the cgi speculate is fun. Many people say that Beauty and The Beast 2017 was a cash grab and that the original aged well and is an arguably better movie but look how much it made. But eventually for Transformers people got fed up with mediocre movies and Last Knight shows it. JL Is the Last Knight for the DcEU. 

SS made so much because of its amazing marketing hype and decent wom. It also was the last big summer movie so it saw relatively small drops after its big first and second week drops. The concept was unique and interesting too. SS also had Joker, Batman, Harley Quinn and Will Smith, a Ben Affleck cameo and a bunch of other A list talent on board. You can't compare a D-List hero with not that much hype (DS trailers did not set the world on fire like SS's did) and social media buzz to Suicide Squad. 

 But in my school and part time job, many students and coworkers who saw it said it was fun but disappointing. I've seen Many people on social media like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter even some on Youtube frim what I saw also called it mediocre but fun as well. 

Also, many people complain about the jokes and villains and music in Marvel movies but they still crush it. Look at people feeling that AoU was a letdown but it still made a lot of money. 

Unfortunately DC has made 3 polarizing movies and the general audience is a mixed to negative bag on them with only one being generally seen as decent. There is no brand trust. For all the faults Marvel has, they have more wins than loses so even if their movies have the same common problems, there is brand, critic score and general audience trust.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Just saying, just because it made money doesn't mean people don't hate it. Many people say Transformers movies are a cgi explosion fest and nothing to brag about story or character wise but the cgi speculate is fun. Many people say that Beauty and The Beast 2017 was a cash grab and that the original aged well and is an arguably better movie but look how much it made. But eventually for Transformers people got fed up with mediocre movies and Last Knight shows it. JL Is the Last Knight for the DcEU. 
> 
> SS made so much because of its amazing marketing hype and decent wom. It also was the last big summer movie so it saw relatively small drops after its big first and second week drops. The concept was unique and interesting too. SS also had Joker, Batman, Harley Quinn and Will Smith, a Ben Affleck cameo and a bunch of other A list talent on board. You can't compare a D-List hero with not that much hype (DS trailers did not set the world on fire like SS's did) and social media buzz to Suicide Squad.


JL and Last Knight isnt the same thing, JL was filled with red flags and ton of production issues that eventually caught up to it, the firing of Junkie XL, the media coverage of the reshoots and the review embargo did not help its case.

Also this is my problem look at all the excuses to defend DS performance, there is no such thing as D-list hero when it comes on the Marvel Banner anymore that does not apply after they scraped the bottom of the barrel and showed that unknowns like the Guardians can be successful and DS also had its share of star power.

Alas I will leave it at that, as Im not trying to turn this into a Marvel V DC

----------


## The True Detective

> Just saying, just because it made money doesn't mean people don't hate it. Many people say Transformers movies are a cgi explosion fest and nothing to brag about story or character wise but the cgi speculate is fun. Many people say that Beauty and The Beast 2017 was a cash grab and that the original aged well and is an arguably better movie but look how much it made. But eventually for Transformers people got fed up with mediocre movies and Last Knight shows it. JL Is the Last Knight for the DcEU. 
> 
> SS made so much because of its amazing marketing hype and decent wom. It also was the last big summer movie so it saw relatively small drops after its big first and second week drops. The concept was unique and interesting too. SS also had Joker, Batman, Harley Quinn and Will Smith, a Ben Affleck cameo and a bunch of other A list talent on board. You can't compare a D-List hero with not that much hype (DS trailers did not set the world on fire like SS's did) and social media buzz to Suicide Squad. 
> 
>  But in my school and part time job, many students and coworkers who saw it said it was fun but disappointing. I've seen Many people on social media like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter even some on Youtube frim what I saw also called it mediocre but fun as well. 
> 
> Also, many people complain about the jokes and villains and music in Marvel movies but they still crush it. Look at people feeling that AoU was a letdown but it still made a lot of money. 
> 
> Unfortunately DC has made 3 polarizing movies and the general audience is a mixed to negative bag on them with only one being generally seen as decent. There is no brand trust. For all the faults Marvel has, they have more wins than loses so even if their movies have the same common problems, there is brand, critic score and general audience trust.


Why can't you compare D-list characters to A-list ones? All I ever hear is how Marvel can get talking trees and raccoons to become hugely popular and Marvel can spin anything into gold. I think it's more than fair to compare SS to Dr. Strange, especially since DS had a Chinese release and good reviews something SS had neither of. If people hated SS so much it wouldn't have had a better multiplier than Civil War (2.4 vs 2.2x)

----------


## golgi

DCEU's box office performance has actually been pretty strong, other than Justice League. The home sales have also been strong, too. Read Hughes article, if you want some numbers.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#65e11fa33988




> The Avengers -- 5.2 million Blu-rays sold
> The Dark Knight Rises -- 3.9 million Blu-rays sold
> Guardians of the Galaxy -- 3.7 million Blu-rays sold
> Deadpool -- 3.2 million Blu-rays sold
> Man of Steel -- 3.2 million Blu-rays sold
> Captain America: Civil War -- 2.7 million Blu-rays sold
> The Dark Knight -- 2.6 million Blu-rays sold
> Iron Man 2 -- 2.4 million Blu-rays sold
> The Avengers: Age of Ultron -- 2.3 million Blu-rays sold
> Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice -- 2.3 million Blu-rays sold

----------


## Slowpokeking

Further improved, made a little change.

----------


## Soubhagya

> So completely glossed over all I said to go back to the why aren't they coming to watch it? In this superhero climate the comic book stature of the heroes is irrelevant when characters like Spiderman which stands on the same level as Batman and Superman when it comes to merchandises and widespread appeal outside of movies and comics circle ends up grossing less than a movie featuring Peter Quill.


I am speaking about ideally. Had the previous films been loved JL would have crushed it at the box office. Just a year ago a film starring both Batman and Superman was something which caught people's interest in a big way. It earned 166 million dollars in its opening weekend. What happened? Within a year and a half the number has almost halved. Okay not exactly. But still 93.8 million is humiliating. It was made with the plan that it could compete with the numbers of Avengers. Avengers were not a special team. Just a bunch of superheroes. Many of which got their films within a few years.  Justice League was supposed to be DC's answer. JL is  not a failure of its own. It's the culmination of the polarizing films one after another. Call it a referendum by the general movie going audience. They are not interested. That's how i see it. Or how has this happened that all comic book films this year overperformed. But JL did not.

----------


## batnbreakfast

There are so many parallels between Escape from NY and Suicide Squad but I wish there would be even more. Really hope the sequel works a lot better and will take its cues from the John Ostrander not the New 52 era.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

People read too much into BO. For WB and Disney shifting Merchandise is also as important. MoS made apparently 200m before release add that to it's BO that's 868m, then add 112m for physical domestic home video that's 980m! Plus any more merchandise sales, digital domestic sales and foreign home video sales. 

There's a reason Snyder came back.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> People read too much into BO. For WB and Disney shifting Merchandise is also as important. MoS made apparently 200m before release add that to it's BO that's 868m, then add 112m for physical domestic home video that's 980m! Plus any more merchandise sales, digital domestic sales and foreign home video sales. 
> 
> There's a reason Snyder came back.


Making back money through product placements only works for so long if your franchise doesn't live up to expectations. The more disappointing box office returns are, the less companies are going to pay for their products to be advertised in future movies.

And it isn't like DCEU movies are the only movies with a lot of product placement, or that have merchandise and home video sales. Anyway you look at it, there's going to be a gap between how much revenue these movies brought it and how much Warner Bros wanted them to bring in.

There's also a reason why Snyder is gone now, unlikely to direct any future DCEU movies and why there's a shakeup going on regarding those that oversee the DCEU.

----------


## Johnny

_"Ha-ha-haaa, all according to plan, Pluto"._

----------


## Doctor Know

> _"Ha-ha-haaa, all according to plan, Pluto"._


Disney is now the true entertainment Kingpin.

----------


## manofsteel1979

So...Pretty much Disney now has access to all of Marvel's characters, all of Star Wars.

At this point Disney might as well buy Paramount and get Star Trek and WB for the DC Comics characters and be done with it and own the souls of nerds forever. All hail our new Rodent conquerers!

----------


## Johnny

> Disney is now the true entertainment Kingpin.


"Talk about evil empire that puts me to shame" - Gordon Gekko

----------


## Bossace

> So...Pretty much Disney now has access to all of Marvel's characters, all of Star Wars.
> 
> At this point Disney might as well buy Paramount and get Star Trek and WB for the DC Comics characters and be done with it and own the souls of nerds forever. All hail our new Rodent conquerers!


Don’t forget Avatar, all those tv programs like the Simpson’s, This is Us etc, and Hulu

I am excited to see how Disney Brings these now acquired marvel properties into the MCU it honestly couldn’t have happened at a better time with them with avengers 4 closing the chapter, plenty of time to make any changes or additional scenes to set these up.

----------


## Angelo2113

Hopefully Warner Bros. realizes they can't compete with Disney and just put their focus on making good quality films, television, and comic books.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Any chance of Disney buying also WB?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Clark_Kent

I know everyone is crazy excited for the Marvel characters being under one banner (for the most part, and except for F4), but I wish more people would take the comic blinders off...this deal is bad for consumers. Competition breeds creativity, and that's not even mentioning how this will drive up the prices of Disney-owned content. Some theaters are already experimenting with varied ticket prices depending on the film, and Disney continues to require bigger shares of release money. Expect those tickets to go up for Disney/Marvel/Star Wars, and the already-too-high prices of their blurays & dvd's to go up soon as well. 

To bring it back around though, I don't see Time-Warner ever being purchased by Disney, no. At least not while the current laws exist.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

This more or less means WB have even harder job with a DC CU. They need to stop worrying about it and concentrate on making good comic book movies first and foremost.

----------


## Carabas

> Any chance of Disney buying also WB?


Only if Time Warner puts it up for sale.

And the DC rights are not part of WB.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I still prefer there are different series of superhero movies rather than just the MCU formula.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

I finally saw JL this evening, and it wasn't the train wreck I was expecting. The firs act is very choppy and some of the re-shoots look *bad*, but it's a refreshingly simple and coherent story (despite some beats clearly having gotten a lot of their buildup removed in editing) with some fun character interaction and a breezy 2 hour runtime. B-, C+ territory.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

I'm not taking sides in whatever is going on with Disney and Fox. 

I will say this, they are not idiots for the deal. Marvel gets its franchises back in full and Disney has an entire back catalogue of IP's to work with going forward with its streaming services. They would be fools not to do this.
What it hurts is the current landscape regarding how the Fox products are produced and distributed, but Fox products are most likely to be able to keep doing what its doing. If a now Disney product is making money, they have no reason to stop it. If Deadpool 2 makes money, Disney has no reason not to pursue a Deadpool 3 assuming someone wants to do it at the bottom line. Disney is a business and if it makes money they will continue doing it.

----------


## El_Gato

> Any chance of Disney buying also WB?


No chace of that happening! Time Warner isn't going to sell one of their biggest assets.

Anyway, Sony will be the next one to sell, followed by Paramount. Who gets them is amybodies guess, but I foresee a film trinity of Disney/WB/Universal forming

----------


## BatmanJones

> Any chance of Disney buying also WB?


I imagine not but there was a time, in the 90s I think, that DC offered to sell its top characters to Marvel including Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern at least. Marvel declined to buy them. Was recently covered on Robert Kirkman's awesome History of Comics on AMC.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I finally saw JL this evening, and it wasn't the train wreck I was expecting. The firs act is very choppy and some of the re-shoots look *bad*, but it's a refreshingly simple and coherent story (despite some beats clearly having gotten a lot of their buildup removed in editing) with some fun character interaction and a breezy 2 hour runtime. B-, C+ territory.


Just responding to your signature/pull list... I'm reading a lot of the same stuff you are and highly recommend Mister Miracle if you haven't checked it out already. Shade the Changing Girl too. Just suggestions in case you haven't already checked them out.  :Smile:

----------


## Slowpokeking

What would the Wonder Woman movie have looked like if they had followed Zack Snyder's idea of "abandoned humanity"? Obviously there was a soft retcon after the bad reception of BVS.

----------


## Carabas

> What would the Wonder Woman movie have looked like if they had followed Zack Snyder's idea of "abandoned humanity"? Obviously there was a soft retcon after the bad reception of BVS.


Mostly the same, but with a much more downbeat ending where she abandons humanity. Snyder had her abandon humanity 100 years ago, which would be during WWI.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Mostly the same, but with a much more downbeat ending where she abandons humanity. Snyder had her abandon humanity 100 years ago, which would be during WWI.


It would be exactly the same, after Diana see's the photo of him we don't see past Diana again it cuts to the present. We're in the unknown of what past Diana does next.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Just responding to your signature/pull list... I'm reading a lot of the same stuff you are and highly recommend Mister Miracle if you haven't checked it out already. Shade the Changing Girl too. Just suggestions in case you haven't already checked them out.


Thanks! I haven't updated that signature in what feels like years, I am reading Mr. Miracle and enjoy it very much.

----------


## Triple J

> This more or less means WB have even harder job with a DC CU. They need to stop worrying about it and concentrate on making good comic book movies first and foremost.


At this point, I think WB might be better off making one off movies - based on alternate realities and such, instead of trying to do a Superhero movie universe (because we are at a point where it's done well by one studio). Superhero movies will start to reflect the comics - cycle of just rebooting and doing the same things all over again - if they haven't already.

They could make a movie trilogy based on Animal Man/Swamp Thing. One based on Lanterns (if done well, can rival the top dogs in Space SciFi, which is SW at the moment). Movies based on Vertigo line would also be great.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It would be exactly the same, after Diana see's the photo of him we don't see past Diana again it cuts to the present. We're in the unknown of what past Diana does next.


No, in BVS she obviously was a lot different.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

If I were WB I would tell writers/directors to feel free to ignore anything from BvS/JL outside of truly insane changes. 

If Patty wants to totally axe the "abandoned humanity" thing that is fine by me.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> If I were WB I would tell writers/directors to feel free to ignore anything from BvS/JL outside of truly insane changes. 
> 
> If Patty wants to totally axe the "abandoned humanity" thing that is fine by me.


It already happened.

https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-movie-retcon/

----------


## Slowpokeking

I just don't understand why did Snyder prefer to set the superheroes so low or miserable, even wanted to kill each other. Sure it could have been great if you could handle it well to let them rise up. But his storytelling is nowhere close to that level and DCEU already lack time to do it.  Such attempt only added the difficulty of the building up and left a big mess.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> I imagine not but there was a time, in the 90s I think, that DC offered to sell its top characters to Marvel including Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern at least. Marvel declined to buy them. Was recently covered on Robert Kirkman's awesome History of Comics on AMC.


It happened in the 80s, I read about that story on Jim Shooter's blog. He even posted the plot of Superman's "1st Marvel issue"...

http://jimshooter.com/2011/10/superm...rnes-plo.html/

http://jimshooter.com/2011/08/superm...el-issue.html/

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*‘Justice League’ DP Fabian Wagner on Zack Snyder’s Cut, Superman’s Black Suit & ‘Game of Thrones’:* http://collider.com/justice-league-i...an-black-suit/

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Possible, very light spoilers for Justice League below:




I saw Grant Morrison's name among the "special thanks to" in the credits, but I don't remember the film containing anything he created or anything from his stories? Or did I miss something?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Eh...he had a definite attitude problem across that story up until the very end. 
> 
> I'm not surprised they're steering clear of his New 52 characterization.


A very understandable attitude problem considering he's been orphaned and grew up in the flawed foster care system, where he's been let down frequently and never found a family, and witnessed abuse towards other kids (some of whom he's shown trying to help escape their environment, btw). 




> Agreed. There were multiple times he just seemed like a brat. *Didn't he make one of the other kids cry at one point?*
> 
> I prefer the optimistic Billy who's looks at life like its a gift as opposed to a burden. The disenchanted orphan is kind of a cliché characterization at this point.


And then felt bad about it almost immediately afterward, she got over it by the next morning, and then he defended her (and his other foster siblings) from bullies a few pages later. And they're all on their way to being a loving family by the end of it. Kids like New 52 Billy aren't a cliche, they are an actual reality, and the last thing they need is to be dismissed as ungrateful jerks for a fantasy of an idealistic orphaned boy who may not actually be something that exists. 

Sorry, the attitudes from some fans towards new 52 Billy have always creeped me out.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I just don't understand why did Snyder prefer to set the superheroes so low or miserable, even wanted to kill each other. Sure it could have been great if you could handle it well to let them rise up. But his storytelling is nowhere close to that level and DCEU already lack time to do it.  Such attempt only added the difficulty of the building up and left a big mess.


When Snyder once talked about Watchmen the comic and his take away was it was "sexy and cool" because it had sex and killing it kind of told me all I needed to know about Snyder. His Dawn of the Dead is a good film he also went the right route with taking the basic elements of the original of the film but creating his own story over a direct remake. With that said the original Romero Dawn of the Dead is one of my favorite films and it's brilliant to me with it's commentary on society, relationships, and just humanity in general. Also I just love how in the film the time taken to things like his they fortified the mall it's a great film to me and that's my one issue with Snyder's remake and in essence's his entire career he take great source materials and turns them into good films.

----------


## Frontier

> A very understandable attitude problem considering he's been orphaned and grew up in the flawed foster care system, where he's been let down frequently and never found a family, and witnessed abuse towards other kids (some of whom he's shown trying to help escape their environment, btw).


I'm not saying that's not understandable but that's just not really Billy, and the way Johns portrayed it could come off really obnoxiously to the point where Billy was hard to like sometimes. 



> And then felt bad about it almost immediately afterward, she got over it by the next morning, and then he defended her (and his other foster siblings) from bullies a few pages later. And they're all on their way to being a loving family by the end of it. Kids like New 52 Billy aren't a cliche, they are an actual reality, and the last thing they need is to be dismissed as ungrateful jerks for a fantasy of an idealistic orphaned boy who may not actually be something that exists. 
> 
> Sorry, the attitudes from some fans towards new 52 Billy have always creeped me out.


I get where Johns was coming from with it, and I'm not denying New 52 Billy had his good moments or moments of depth, but I just think he overdid it a little in trying to make New 52 Billy different from classic Billy (which wouldn't be the first time). 

It felt more like an Earth-One Billy then it did a proper one, which, honestly, feels like a good summation of the New 52 Shazam.

----------


## Sirzechs

> A very understandable attitude problem considering he's been orphaned and grew up in the flawed foster care system, where he's been let down frequently and never found a family, and witnessed abuse towards other kids (some of whom he's shown trying to help escape their environment, btw). 
> 
> 
> *
> And then felt bad about it almost immediately afterward, she got over it by the next morning, and then he defended her (and his other foster siblings) from bullies a few pages later. And they're all on their way to being a loving family by the end of it. Kids like New 52 Billy aren't a cliche, they are an actual reality, and the last thing they need is to be dismissed as ungrateful jerks for a fantasy of an idealistic orphaned boy who may not actually be something that exists.* 
> 
> Sorry, the attitudes from some fans towards new 52 Billy have always creeped me out.


Thank you for this.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I'm not saying that's not understandable but that's just not really Billy, and the way Johns portrayed it could come off really obnoxiously to the point where Billy was hard to like sometimes. 
> 
> I get where Johns was coming from with it, and I'm not denying New 52 Billy had his good moments or moments of depth, but I just think he overdid it a little in trying to make New 52 Billy different from classic Billy (which wouldn't be the first time). 
> 
> It felt more like an Earth-One Billy then it did a proper one, which, honestly, feels like a good summation of the New 52 Shazam.


The Old Billy to me feels like a 1940s take on what a kid should be like, it just doesn't feel organic.

----------


## Frontier

I think the movie, if handled right, gives DC a chance to combine the essentials and essence of Captain Marvel with what worked about the New 52 Shazam revamp (and maybe dropping some of the more controversial elements).




> The Old Billy to me feels like a 1940s take on what a kid should be like, it just doesn't feel organic.


I dunno, I felt Billy's classic characterization felt fine in all the adaptions I had seen him in up until the Johns revamp. 

It felt like they were trying too hard to write a "realistic" Billy while other adaptions just wrote him like a kid, which he is.

----------


## Sirzechs

Whats up with Last Jedi's audience score ?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Whats up with Last Jedi's audience score ?


Apparently TLJ contains elements that are/will be controversial for series fans based on some of the non-spoilery things blurbs I've read about it. 

And mass trolling can't be discounted either regarding the RT audience score. 

I imagine that RT audience score will go up following this weekend when the backlash has died down a bit.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Apparently TLJ contains elements that are/will be controversial for diehard series fans based on some of the non-spoilery things blurbs I've read about it. 
> 
> And mass trolling can't be discounted either regarding the RT audience score. 
> 
> I imagine that RT audience score will go up following this weekend when more casuals have seen the film.


Don't worry I'm not going to give any spoilers but I consider myself more than a causal fan but not a die hard fan and on a technical level this film is pretty flawless and looks gorgeous and the story's ok IMO. But I found it really disappointing that's my issue, so I get the RT audience score but I think the Cinemascore will be a better representation when released.

----------


## maxmcco

> The Old Billy to me feels like a 1940s take on what a kid should be like, it just doesn't feel organic.


"Old Billy" was not one thing. He had many different incarnations from the Golden Age to Power of Shazam to Jeff Smith's Monster Society. All completely different but none of them obnoxious. Nobody says that Harry Potter's characterization is unrealistic because he's an orphan and not angry all the time.

----------


## Jokerz79

While JL has under preformed there is a WB high note for the year and WW and IT are two of the biggest reasons for this but WB crossed 2 billion domestically the first time since 2009.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> "Old Billy" was not one thing. He had many different incarnations from the Golden Age to Power of Shazam to Jeff Smith's Monster Society. All completely different but none of them obnoxious. Nobody says that Harry Potter's characterization is unrealistic because he's an orphan and not angry all the time.


Harry got quite angsty as the books went on, for pretty understandable reasons. Billy also wasn't angry (we see his compassion on full display when he tries to get another girl out of an abusive home), and he's definitely lightening up by the end of things. 

I think all of this has less to do with characterizations, and me being weirded out when people dismiss New 52 Billy as a one note jerk. How do these people react to actual foster kids who aren't always lucky to be adopted (and thus feel that something's inherently wrong with them) and can be abused?

----------


## BlackClaw

> Apparently TLJ contains elements that are/will be controversial for series fans based on some of the non-spoilery things blurbs I've read about it. 
> 
> And mass trolling can't be discounted either regarding the RT audience score. 
> 
> I imagine that RT audience score will go up following this weekend when the backlash has died down a bit.


Star Wars fans dont know what the hell they want. They bashed Force Awakens for relying too much on nostalgia and then want to go right around and cry when the series does something new for once.

----------


## Sirzechs

> "Old Billy" was not one thing. He had many different incarnations from the Golden Age to Power of Shazam to Jeff Smith's Monster Society. All completely different but none of them obnoxious. Nobody says that Harry Potter's characterization is unrealistic because he's an orphan and not* angry all the time*.


Yet, Potter is angry at times for his situation, doesn't always have positive attitude. Harry Potter feels organic. also if your idea of how Billy was portrayed in the new52 Shazam is that he was angry all the time, maybe just maybe try actually reading pass the first issue or actually read it yourself and not pick up gross exaggerations from Forums.

----------


## Frontier

> Harry got quite angsty as the books went on, for pretty understandable reasons. Billy also wasn't angry (we see his compassion on full display when he tries to get another girl out of an abusive home), and he's definitely lightening up by the end of things. 
> 
> I think all of this has less to do with characterizations, and me being weirded out when people dismiss New 52 Billy as a one note jerk. *How do these people react to actual foster kids who aren't always lucky to be adopted (and thus feel that something's inherently wrong with them) and can be abused?*


Again, I understand that's more realistic, that's just not really Billy.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Apparently TLJ contains elements that are/will be controversial for series fans based on some of the non-spoilery things blurbs I've read about it. 
> 
> And mass trolling can't be discounted either regarding the RT audience score. 
> 
> I imagine that RT audience score will go up following this weekend when the backlash has died down a bit.


I don't think it was just trolling.  A lot of them wrote very detailed and sincere looking accounts of why they didn't like TLJ.  Trolls don't go through all that trouble.

----------


## maxmcco

> Yet, Potter is angry at times for his situation, doesn't always have positive attitude. Harry Potter feels organic. also if your idea of how Billy was portrayed in the new52 Shazam is that he was angry all the time, maybe just maybe try actually reading pass the first issue or actually read it yourself and not pick up gross exaggerations from Forums.


That's assuming a lot about my post. I love Geoff Johns' Shazam. Aways have. I have been on these boards saying a follow up to the amazing cliffhanger at the end was long overdue. But Billy's snarky characterization continued in many appearances after this story finished. And that's not how Billy has ever been characterized before this story. Also, none of the other foster kids at Billy's home are portrayed with big chips on their shoulders. Are they all unrealistic? I certainly wouldn't mind one of the others to be portrayed that way. But not Billy. He's the head of the Marvel Family and should be the example the others look up to.

To the other poster who was "creeped out" about how other people feel about a characterization which deviates from every other one in the 75 year life of a character is bazaar (and a phrase that's way overused IMHO). David F. Sandberg is smart to be making the lead character more likeable but keeping the same general tone of an overall great story.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Star Wars fans don’t know what the hell they want. They bashed Force Awakens for relying too much on nostalgia and then want to go right around and cry when the series does something new for once.


For me it was every question they got me to ask during Force Awakens seemed to have a lackluster answer IMO so I found the film very disappointing. But I still enjoyed it, the characters, and it looked fantastic but can't lie and not say I wasn't disappointed.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Concept art for an unproduced Justice League Dark/Dark Universe film pitch by director Joseph Kahn

----------


## Frontier

> Concept art for an unproduced Justice League Dark/Dark Universe film pitch by director Joseph Kahn


Those are some...interesting takes on those characters. Especially Zatanna  :EEK!: .

Were they going for Chiwetel Ejiofor for Jason Blood  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Concept art for an unproduced Justice League Dark/Dark Universe film pitch by director Joseph Kahn


Oh god no to that Zatannna look how generic can one get?

----------


## El_Gato

> Concept art for an unproduced Justice League Dark/Dark Universe film pitch by director Joseph Kahn


Zatanna and Deadman look terrible! A Black man as Jason Blood/Etrigan doesn't make any sense... Glad this was passed on.

----------


## Confuzzled

> A Black man as Jason Blood/Etrigan doesn't make any sense... Glad this was passed on.


Lol black people _did_ exist in medieval times. If you can believe an immortal man being cursed into transforming into a hellish demon, you cannot imagine a man from Africa being in King Arthur's court?

----------


## Frontier

I just find it hilarious that they seemed to base Jason off Chiwetel Ejiofor.

Did they see Marvel had gotten him for Baron Mordo and just thought "why the heck not"  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

I don't think the skunk stripe works without the red hair though...

----------


## El_Gato

> Lol black people _did_ exist in medieval times. If you can believe an immortal man being cursed into transforming into a hellish demon, you cannot imagine a man from Africa being in King Arthur's court?


Nope, I can't. Race swapping for race swapping sake. Hollywoood seriously needs to stop insulting minorities by doing that. If they wanted to add a Black character to the cast then they should use Dr Mist, a powerful African sorcerer ruling over his own empire. That's better (and far more progressive) than raceswapping a White character and shoving a Black man into a very European story.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I really wish to see Lobo on big screen. Too bad Jason couldn't play him.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Nope, I can't. Race swapping for race swapping sake. Hollywoood seriously needs to stop insulting minorities by doing that. If they wanted to add a Black character to the cast then they should use Dr Mist, a powerful African sorcerer ruling over his own empire. That's better (and far more progressive) than raceswapping a White character and shoving a Black man into a very European story.


It's race swapping for the sake of correcting the fact that 95% of DCU characters are white. How else do you propose fixing it? It would likely take a century to do it with wholly new characters.

Dr. Mist is a good start but there are far too few characters of color for this ever to be the solution to a real problem.

----------


## El_Gato

> It's race swapping for the sake of correcting the fact that 95% of DCU characters are white. How else do you propose fixing it? It would likely take a century to do it with wholly new characters.
> 
> Dr. Mist is a good start but there are far too few characters of color for this ever to be the solution to a real problem.


Simple. Start promoting the existing minority characters, instead of ignoring them. Race swapping doesn't help because the character will remain White in all other mediums (ie Aquaman, Deadshot). There are quite a few minority characters that could use the exposure and so far the DCEU has been really good in regards to giving them that (Cyborg, Katana, El Diablo, Waller, Croc). That trend will likely continue with the Shazam kids, Black Adam, Black Manta, and the SS sequel.  Baby steps...

----------


## yohyoi

> Whats up with Last Jedi's audience score ?


3 words. Star. Wars. Fandom.

They are more fickle than superhero fans.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Simple. Start promoting the existing minority characters, instead of ignoring them. Race swapping doesn't help because the character will remain White in all other mediums (ie Aquaman, Deadshot). There are quite a few minority characters that could use the exposure and so far the DCEU has been really good in regards to giving them that (Cyborg, Katana, El Diablo, Waller, Croc). That trend will likely continue with the Shazam kids, Black Adam, Black Manta, and the SS sequel.  Baby steps...


Out of all those DCEU minority characters listed, only Waller and to a lesser extent El Diablo were as prominent as Deadshot, Aquaman etc. Also, what's the definition of "minority" here? Shouldn't ethnic minorities like Gal Gadot and Ezra Miller be counted as well? Were you opposed to Gadot's casting too?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Out of all those DCEU minority characters listed, only Waller and to a lesser extent El Diablo were as prominent as Deadshot, Aquaman etc. Also, what's the definition of "minority" here? Shouldn't ethnic minorities like Gal Gadot and Ezra Miller be counted as well? Were you opposed to Gadot's casting too?


It is indeed a complex question, but I do believe that there is enough material to support minority characters, which is definitely preferable to race-swapping. Mr. Terrific, Black Lightning, John Stewart GL, Vixen, Steel, Cyborg, Kendra Saunders, on and on...no need to take someone like Jimmy Olsen or Jason Blood and contradict decades of established visual.

(not that a race-swapping of Blood would ruin the character for me in that particular interpretation, but it wouldn't serve the broader purpose of inclusivity.)

----------


## El_Gato

> Out of all those DCEU minority characters listed, only Waller and to a lesser extent El Diablo were as prominent as Deadshot, Aquaman etc. Also, what's the definition of "minority" here? Shouldn't ethnic minorities like Gal Gadot and Ezra Miller be counted as well? Were you opposed to Gadot's casting too?


Cyborg was also very prominent, and like Diablo and Waller was praised among fans/critics. 

I'm going by an American definition of racial minority, so that means anyone that's non-White (Black, East Asian, Middle Eastern, Islander, Native American, Brown...etc).

I didn't have a problem with Gal Gadot or Ezra Miller in their roles because they at least resemble the character they're portraying minus a few minor traits.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It is indeed a complex question, but I do believe that there is enough material to support minority characters, which is definitely preferable to race-swapping. Mr. Terrific, Black Lightning, John Stewart GL, Vixen, Steel, Cyborg, Kendra Saunders, on and on...no need to take someone like Jimmy Olsen or Jason Blood and contradict decades of established visual.
> 
> (not that a race-swapping of Blood would ruin the character for me in that particular interpretation, but it wouldn't serve the broader purpose of inclusivity.)


The problem is how the DC universe is structured in terms of characters and races. As much as I would love to see Vixen, Black Lightning etc. rise to A-List levels, it is difficult to ensure they are as equal driving forces as much as say, the Trinity. 

Then there is the fact that the most prominent superheroes like the Trinity who are the most logical choices to receive solo movies and franchises will usually have supporting casts and villains who are much more disproportionately white than any other race. While that may have worked in a pre-Civil Rights America where the lone demographics were white teenagers and kids with purchasing power, it cannot in 21st Century blockbuster cinema where the entire world and its diverse populations are the demographics. That warrants raceswapping of pre-established white characters or replacing them entirely with new minority characters (the latter of which would probably be even less popular with fandoms).

It's also important to note that with Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman, DC has excelled commercially when it has tapped into the shortcomings of the previous Marvel films produced under the Ike Perlmutter regime who were notorious for discouraging inclusivity in their own films. So underserved demos grabbed onto SS and WW even if, in the case of SS, the reviews were terrible.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I didn't have a problem with Gal Gadot or Ezra Miller in their roles because *they at least resemble the character they're portraying* minus a few minor traits.


How did Gal Gadot resemble the blue eyed, more bigger built Diana from the comics? That was the most common criticism levied at her during her casting (though interestingly, the way many artists interpreted Diana in the 80's-00's and which fans traditionally think of when it comes to Wonder Woman's visuals, was heavily inspired by the lovely Lynda Carter, who herself was part Latina).

Ezra Miller's casting received its share of complaints from fanboys too regarding how he looked nothing like Barry and with disparaging comments made about the actor's sexual orientation and ethnicity.

----------


## Johnny

The most popular minority characters are usually either standalone original creations or representatives of a legacy mantle. Race swapping works but only to a certain degree. What I've noticed about a portion of modern society's expectations towards representation in media, is their constant desire for instant gratification. They won't prefer new or previously ignored characters to be given a chance to shine because "that takes time" or "that may not work". They want characters who have always been treated in an important fashion to suddenly be changed to cater to any historically marginalized groups. And they want it right now, no ands, ifs, or buts. If you give Peter Parker an unknown woman of color as a love interest, nobody would bat an eye or at least not consider it such a big deal in the long run, like they didn't with Liz, since noone had a clue who Liz Allan was or that she was a race swapped character too. But if you nickname some random black girl "MJ", you get all the sites patting you on the back for it, irregardless of the fact that the actual Mary Jane character remains white everywhere else, inside or outside of comics. Overall, I think race swapping only matters to people depending on which characters you choose to do it to.

To me it's not as "progressive" to take a prominent character who's been around for decades(like Johnny Storm or instance) and raceswap them, as it would be if you take an original minority character who's also been around for decades(like Black Lightning for instance) and introduce them to a new generations of fans. Sure it may take a bit more time and effort, but in the end I believe it would be worth it. That's how you also avoid both confusing new fans and alienating old fans. Trying to both have your cake and eat it too may not always lead to the best results.

----------


## Johnny

> How did Gal Gadot resemble the blue eyed, more bigger built Diana from the comics? That was the most common criticism levied at her during her casting.


The most common criticism was about her cup size. It was no different than the complaints that Shailene Woodley "wasn't pretty enough" to play MJ in ASM2. Really embarrassing stuff all around, but it wasn't about race.

----------


## Jokerz79

If they want to race swap one of them then it should be John Constantine. I'm not saying they should just a 20th/21st Century Black Brit makes more sense than Jason Blood being black given Camelot lore started in the 12th century the same time Europeans were in the Holy Land basically marching along to Onward Christian Soldiers with the Crusades.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Concept art for an unproduced Justice League Dark/Dark Universe film pitch by director Joseph Kahn


Zatanna looks terrible.  I hate it when producers are too hip to use the costumes the characters wear in the comic books.   If Zatanna isn't wearing a top hat and fishnets, why bother?






> The most common criticism was about her cup size. It was no different than the complaints that Shailene Woodley "wasn't pretty enough" to play MJ in ASM2. Really embarrassing stuff all around, but it wasn't about race.


Fanboys are never happy if the cup size isn't porn star proportions. They had the same complaint about Melissa Benoist as Supergirl. Wasn't sexy enough to be Supergirl.

----------


## Powertool

> If they want to race swap one of them then it should be John Constantine.


If he smokes 40 cigarettes a day calling them "fags", wears stud earrings, is a former member of a Punk Rock boy band, viscerally hates the Conservative Party and gets by one scam at a time, I'm in! Otherwise, what's the point of getting John Constantine that's not just race-bent but also sanitized and made generic?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sirzechs

> I just find it hilarious that they seemed to base Jason off Chiwetel Ejiofor.
> 
> Did they see Marvel had gotten him for Baron Mordo and just thought "why the heck not" ?
> 
> I don't think the skunk stripe works without the red hair though...


This advtually two years old so i assumes he had him as potential pick before Doctor Strange announcement.

----------


## Sirzechs

> If they want to race swap one of them then it should be John Constantine. I'm not saying they should just a 20th/21st Century Black Brit makes more sense than Jason Blood being black given Camelot lore started in the 12th century the same time Europeans were in the Holy Land basically marching along to Onward Christian Soldiers with the Crusades.


This makes no sense, as the Moors had a strong presence in early European and people need to look this up before thinking European was always predominantly white.

----------


## Jokerz79

> This makes no sense, as the Moors had a strong presence in early European and people need to look this up before thinking European was always predominantly white.


Well one the Middle Ages isn't early Europe hence "Middle" and two were talking about Great Britain not continental Europe and by the 12th Century the Christian armies of Europe were trying to push the Moors out of Europe. So the idea Black man serving an English king around that time actually sounds like a whitewashing of history dissolving Europe of its sins.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So the idea Black man serving an English king around that time actually sounds like a whitewashing of history dissolving Europe of its sins.


Umm... King Arthur wasn't real. Nor did any wizards serve an English king but Merlin's not "magicwashing" of history, is it?

----------


## Agent Z

> *Zatanna looks terrible.  I hate it when producers are too hip to use the costumes the characters wear in the comic books.   If Zatanna isn't wearing a top hat and fishnets, why bother?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fanboys are never happy if the cup size isn't porn star proportions. They had the same complaint about Melissa Benoist as Supergirl. Wasn't sexy enough to be Supergirl.


Because not every costume is going to look good in live action. I mean, you even mention how silly the complaints over actresses bodies are. The fishnets can easily fall under the same view.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The most common criticism was about her cup size. It was no different than the complaints that Shailene Woodley "wasn't pretty enough" to play MJ in ASM2. Really embarrassing stuff all around, but it wasn't about race.


I saw my fair share of "Why is an Israeli/Arab playing Wonder Woman" kind of comments too.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's assuming a lot about my post. I love Geoff Johns' Shazam. Aways have. I have been on these boards saying a follow up to the amazing cliffhanger at the end was long overdue. But Billy's snarky characterization continued in many appearances after this story finished. And that's not how Billy has ever been characterized before this story. Also, none of the other foster kids at Billy's home are portrayed with big chips on their shoulders. Are they all unrealistic? I certainly wouldn't mind one of the others to be portrayed that way. But not Billy. He's the head of the Marvel Family and should be the example the others look up to.
> 
> To the other poster who was "creeped out" about how other people feel about a characterization which deviates from every other one in the 75 year life of a character is bazaar (and a phrase that's way overused IMHO). David F. Sandberg is smart to be making the lead character more likeable but keeping the same general tone of an overall great story.


This narrow-minded view of a character is exactly why it's so difficult for DC characters not named Batman to get new fans. The idea that Billy can't be a positive role model to people in spite of his flaws is disingenuous.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Umm... King Arthur wasn't real. Nor did any wizards serve an English king but Merlin's not "magicwashing" of history, is it?


It represents a time period. So we shouldn't show the ugliness of the period because wizards are added? The irony is I wasn't even against a race swap just John would make more sense IMO over Jason.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

For what it's worth, Kahn's said on his Twitter that his Zatanna would've had the top hat, even if it's not reflected in the concept art. :P

----------


## Johnny

If we ever get a comic accurate live-action Zatanna, I think we would likely end up with the New 52 version.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

If a New 52 Zatanna design is used for live action, I'd prefer the second Ivan Reis outfit. More evocative of the classic look, and imo not as generic as her first New 52 Magic Biker look.

----------


## Johnny

> If a New 52 Zatanna design is used for live action, I'd prefer the second Ivan Reis outfit. More evocative of the classic look, and imo not as generic as her first New 52 Magic Biker look.


But don't you like those magic biker chicks.  :Smile:

----------


## Slowpokeking

Anne Hathaway should play Zatanna.

----------


## Frontier

> Because not every costume is going to look good in live action. I mean, you even mention how silly the complaints over actresses bodies are. The fishnets can easily fall under the same view.


I dunno, Serinda Swan was able to make it work on _Smallville_. 



> This narrow-minded view of a character is exactly why it's so difficult for DC characters not named Batman to get new fans. The idea that Billy can't be a positive role model to people in spite of his flaws is disingenuous.


Billy can be a positive role model despite some character flaws but I don't think those character flaws should go against what his character is traditionally about. 

It's not like DC had to make Wonder Woman more flawed or cynical to make her movie the big hit that it was, in fact the opposite was true in the end. 



> For what it's worth, Kahn's said on his Twitter that his Zatanna would've had the top hat, even if it's not reflected in the concept art. :P


I'm not sure if the top hat works for that outfit...



> If we ever get a comic accurate live-action Zatanna, I think we would likely end up with the New 52 version.


I dunno, with the direction the DCEU is heading, and the fact that her classic look came back for Rebirth, I would like to think that they'd go with something better then the original New 52 look. 

Heck, she's even sporting the classic look on the new DCEU intro...



> If a New 52 Zatanna design is used for live action, I'd prefer the second Ivan Reis outfit. More evocative of the classic look, and imo not as generic as her first New 52 Magic Biker look.


I think this would probably be the best "middle-ground" we could get as far as Zatanna's looks, if they want to eschew her traditional costume.

----------


## Agent Z

> I dunno, Serinda Swan was able to make it work on _Smallville_.


YMMV. Honestly, I don't that look has ever worked outside of animation or comics.





> Billy can be a positive role model despite some character flaws but I don't think those character flaws should go against what his character is traditionally about.


Just about any flaws known to man can be interpreted to "go against what his character is traditionally about".

----------


## Frontier

> YMMV. Honestly, I don't that look has ever worked outside of animation or comics.


And I personally think it looked fine on _Smallville_, but agree to disagree  :Smile: .

I certainly think it worked better then their adaption of Black Canary's costume...



> Just about any flaws known to man can be interpreted to "go against what his character is traditionally about".


I think there are degrees to how far you can go in making a certain character flawed before they start to feel less like themselves. 

Again, I just don't think he's the kind of character who needs to have any kind of cynicism or anger in him. I'm not saying that's not unrealistic, but otherwise it's not Billy.

----------


## maxmcco

> This *narrow-minded* view of a character is exactly why it's so difficult for DC characters not named Batman to get new fans. The idea that Billy can't be a positive role model to people in spite of his flaws is disingenuous.


It's possible to make a point without name-calling. Finding viewpoints other than your own "creepy" and "narrow-minded" is a way of devaluing others. Typical bullying behaviour. We all have the same hobby. Can't we disagree respectfully?

----------


## Punisher007

I'd prefer something like this:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140930214937

As Zatanna's actual hero costume.  The other New 52 oufit, could work as a more casual outfit that she wears, just walking around town.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> This narrow-minded view of a character is exactly why it's so difficult for DC characters not named Batman to get new fans. The idea that Billy can't be a positive role model to people in spite of his flaws is disingenuous.


Well, they presented Wonder Woman pretty much as she is and everyone loved it, so she had no problem getting a new generation of fans (chiefly women). Meanwhile, despite the movie sucking and the memes that erupted from his CGI face, audiences seemed to like Superman's characterization in this even if it was jarring. I will defend against what I perceive to be the misconceptions of DCEU Superman up until that point, but since now we've seen what it was all leading to and the transition was underwhelming AF, we can probably conclude that they didn't need to go against audience expectations for Superman to get new fans in the first place. We now know that the experimentation didn't work, and now the brand might have taken some temporary damage, and a sequel with Cavill and a new director is in doubt because he's the face of a franchise with two extremely divisive movies, and (despite him being liked in it) an underperformer. Wonder Woman was embraced as she was with a competent director, and she's doing fine. 




> It's possible to make a point without name-calling. Finding viewpoints other than your own *"creepy"* and "narrow-minded" is a way of devaluing others. Typical bullying behaviour. We all have the same hobby. Can't we disagree respectfully?


Yeah this one was me, and it sounded way harsh when I went back and read it. So apologies in general for that and I don't think I aimed it at anyone here specifically. I've seen way worse said about New 52 Billy over the years (the one that really skeeved me being that he was no longer "innocent') and I was referring more to that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It represents a time period. So we shouldn't show the ugliness of the period because wizards are added? The irony is I wasn't even against a race swap just John would make more sense IMO over Jason.


King Arthur and Camelot were always supposed to represent a fantasised ideal of England in particular so if anything, Arthur being atypically benevolent and accepting of Moors actually does his character more justice, not less. As a reason for excluding POC's from being considered for Blood, that one doesn't hold much weight no matter what your intentions (not that I accused you of racism!!11! so mentioning "irony" just comes across as overtly defensive to be frank).  

And If they go the JLD animated movie route for Jason's backstory, they could depict Arthur's enemies like Destiny being the racist, Moor-despising usurper wannabes. It would give an added nuance to Jason Blood as well as his devotion to Arthur.

----------


## Agent Z

> It's possible to make a point without name-calling. Finding viewpoints other than your own "creepy" and "narrow-minded" is a way of devaluing others. Typical bullying behaviour. We all have the same hobby. Can't we disagree respectfully?


I'm not bullying anyone. Nor did I call anyone names.

----------


## Agent Z

> Well, they presented Wonder Woman pretty much as she is and everyone loved it, so she had no problem getting a new generation of fans (chiefly women). Meanwhile, despite the movie sucking and the memes that erupted from his CGI face, audiences seemed to like Superman's characterization in this even if it was jarring. I will defend against what I perceive to be the misconceptions of DCEU Superman up until that point, but since now we've seen what it was all leading to and the transition was underwhelming AF, we can probably conclude that they didn't need to go against audience expectations for Superman to get new fans in the first place. We now know that the experimentation didn't work, and now the brand might have taken some temporary damage, and a sequel with Cavill and a new director is in doubt because he's the face of a franchise with two extremely divisive movies, and (despite him being liked in it) an underperformer. Wonder Woman was embraced as she was with a competent director, and she's doing fine. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah this one was me, and it sounded way harsh when I went back and read it. So apologies in general for that and I don't think I aimed it at anyone here specifically. I've seen way worse said about New 52 Billy over the years (the one that really skeeved me being that he was no longer "innocent') and I was referring more to that.


The competent director part is kind of important here. Now YMMV on Snyder, but it feels like a lot of people are less concerned with actually making a well written story and more seeing these characters act like their Golden or Silver Age versions on screen without considering if those will work in a modern context.

----------


## maxmcco

> I'm not bullying anyone. Nor did I call anyone names.


Really? When you start your post with "this narrow-minded view..." referring to my post, it would be considered pretty rude discourse (at least where I'm from in Canada). It sets a combative tone and diminishes an opinion you don't like by labelling my thinking lesser-than. Yeah. That's bullying. But I guess norms around polite debate may be different where you live.

----------


## Agent Z

> Really? When you start your post with "this narrow-minded view..." referring to my post, it would be considered pretty rude discourse (at least where I'm from in Canada). It sets a combative tone and diminishes an opinion you don't like by labelling my thinking lesser-than. Yeah. That's bullying. But I guess norms around polite debate may be different where you live.


It's not bullying according to the forum rules.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The competent director part is kind of important here. Now YMMV on Snyder, but it feels like a lot of people are less concerned with actually making a well written story and more seeing these characters act like their Golden or Silver Age versions on screen without considering if those will work in a modern context.


But now that we've seen the end result of Superman's arc in the DCEU, we can conclude that to the vast majority of people it is not a well written story. I still like MoS (2nd place after WW for me) despite its flaws, and with hindsight, I think a Superman trilogy that allowed him to grow into the Superman we know could have been great. But it got morphed into a trilogy with other heroes, a lot of his screen time got cut in the second film, and his characterization took a drastic turn in this last film even if the audience liked the end result (and even then, it's undercut by him being in a crappy movie). 

Saying the lack of open mindedness to new interpretations for these characters is why everyone except Batman is suffering doesn't entirely work when Wonder Woman's film fully embraced elements from her Golden Age and Perez versions and it was a roaring success. A Silver Age style Superman can work in a modern context, and in reality actually _has_ worked in recent comics. There's no reason to believe a well done film embracing that kind of Superman wouldn't work. It's clearly what the casual audience wants if Cavill's Superman is one of the very few things to be enjoyed in JL.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> But now that we've seen the end result of Superman's arc in the DCEU, we can conclude that to the vast majority of people it is not a well written story. I still like MoS (2nd place after WW for me) despite its flaws, and with hindsight, I think a Superman trilogy that allowed him to grow into the Superman we know could have been great. But it got morphed into a trilogy with other heroes, a lot of his screen time got cut in the second film, and his characterization took a drastic turn in this last film even if the audience liked the end result (and even then, it's undercut by him being in a crappy movie). 
> 
> Saying the lack of open mindedness to new interpretations for these characters is why everyone except Batman is suffering doesn't entirely work when Wonder Woman's film fully embraced elements from her Golden Age and Perez versions and it was a roaring success. A Silver Age style Superman can work in a modern context, and in reality actually _has_ worked in recent comics. There's no reason to believe a well done film embracing that kind of Superman wouldn't work. It's clearly what the casual audience wants if Cavill's Superman is one of the very few things to be enjoyed in JL.


They DIDN'T do a Superman arc, they tried to insert Batman to have a big showdown instead of focusing on Superman.

----------


## maxmcco

> It's not bullying according to the forum rules.


This is the very first rule under CBR Community Standards

"BE CIVIL

Treat everyone with civility, keep the snark to a minimum, and do not insult other people. We cannot stress that last part enough: DO NOT INSULT OTHER PEOPLE. Engaging in insulting behavior is a bannable offense, and not the kind you come back from. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been here, whether you’re a newb or veteran, it will not be tolerated. Keep the example we mentioned in the Community Standards in mind; if you wouldn’t say it as a guest in someone else’s home, don’t say it here."

Would you call a guest's opinion in someone else's home narrow-minded? I think your operating right on the edge of these rules.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> They DIDN'T do a Superman arc, they tried to insert Batman to have a big showdown instead of focusing on Superman.


I know, the end result was pretty half assed even if it could have been potentially very interesting. They said he had an arc, and it was potentially very interesting, but they didn't actually deliver.

----------


## Agent Z

> But now that we've seen the end result of Superman's arc in the DCEU, we can conclude that to the vast majority of people it is not a well written story. I still like MoS (2nd place after WW for me) despite its flaws, and with hindsight, I think a Superman trilogy that allowed him to grow into the Superman we know could have been great. But it got morphed into a trilogy with other heroes, a lot of his screen time got cut in the second film, and his characterization took a drastic turn in this last film even if the audience liked the end result (and even then, it's undercut by him being in a crappy movie). 
> 
> Saying the lack of open mindedness to new interpretations for these characters is why everyone except Batman is suffering doesn't entirely work when Wonder Woman's film fully embraced elements from her Golden Age and Perez versions and it was a roaring success. A Silver Age style Superman can work in a modern context, and in reality actually _has_ worked in recent comics. There's no reason to believe a well done film embracing that kind of Superman wouldn't work. It's clearly what the casual audience wants if Cavill's Superman is one of the very few things to be enjoyed in JL.


Diana hasn't had as much media presentation as Batman and her characterization in adaptations isn't as varied. people may like the Gadot version but sooner or later there's a possibility they'll get bored with that version. Batman has been getting numerous adaptations each with variety in portrayal.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Diana hasn't had as much media presentation as Batman and her characterization in adaptations isn't as varied. people may like the Gadot version but sooner or later there's a possibility they'll get bored with that version. Batman has been getting numerous adaptations each with variety in portrayal.


That's a what if scenario, and it's pointless to engage in that at this time. Especially as Marvel isn't experimenting too much with the onscreen portrayals of their characters and they are laughing all the way to the bank. 

The reality of the situation is that we now have a Wonder Woman film that embraced the versions of her from the comic and it was in turn embraced by audiences and critics. We can now safely say that the Superman experiment, despite whatever potential it may have had at one point, has been botched and failed. And probably wasn't necessary to begin with; there is nothing to suggest a Silver Age style Superman wouldn't have worked in a modern context and wouldn't have been embraced by fans, critics and casuals alike. Cavill played a Silver Age style Superman in this and it's one of the few things people liked in this otherwise turd sandwich of a movie. And now the whole thing was a waste of time and may have cost us seeing more of this actor in the role, which would be a damn shame.

----------


## Triple J

> That's a what if scenario, and it's pointless to engage in that at this time. Especially as Marvel isn't experimenting too much with the onscreen portrayals of their characters and they are laughing all the way to the bank. 
> 
> The reality of the situation is that we now have a Wonder Woman film that embraced the versions of her from the comic and it was in turn embraced by audiences and critics. We can now safely say that the Superman experiment, despite whatever potential it may have had at one point, has been botched and failed. And probably wasn't necessary to begin with; there is nothing to suggest a Silver Age style Superman wouldn't have worked in a modern context and wouldn't have been embraced by fans, critics and casuals alike. Cavill played a Silver Age style Superman in this and it's one of the few things people liked in this otherwise turd sandwich of a movie. And now the whole thing was a waste of time and may have cost us seeing more of this actor in the role, which would be a damn shame.


Audience and critics could care less her portrayal in comics. How can we attribute the movie's success to faithfulness to Diana's portrayal in comics? (You seem to implying that; forgive me if I misinterpreted that).

I wouldn't be so sure about any version of Superman being embraced fully by fans, casuals and critics (because people have this idea of Superman in their minds). And for better or worse, any movie and portrayal will be judged based on those notions people have.

Snyder's version - I like what he did in MOS, and it made me a fan of Superman (and I know quite a few people who became fans of Superman after watching that movie). So, in my mind, Snyder has done well. I can't comment on what he did with JL (concluded the Superman arc) since I haven't watched it yet.

Marvel has a blessing here because they were primarily dealing with their B and C list heroes (since everyone else was either with Fox or Sony...but things have changed now with Disney buying Fox). They didn't have to deal with preconceived notions about their characters on how they were supposed to be. Any version they adapted (so long as the movie was done well) would have been received well.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Audience and critics could care less her portrayal in comics. How can we attribute the movie's success to faithfulness to Diana's portrayal in comics? (You seem to implying that; forgive me if I misinterpreted that).


It's not the only reason for success, but I think it definitely helped. The film being competently made the way it was allowed the greatest number of groups to embrace it: fans, critics and the general audience. And women in all three groups. The casuals aren't going out buying comics because no matter what they do and what characters they push, comics are a niche medium with the superhero genre being an even smaller niche. But thanks to stuff like Lynda Carter and the idea that Wonder Woman is a female superhero who can stand on her own with the big boys, everyone has an idea of what they want Wonder Woman to be like. And the film delivered for the majority. The key was catering to the majority, not catering to whatever minority voices are out there saying a loving Wonder Woman would be lame and she needed to be flawed and badass. 




> I wouldn't be so sure about any version of Superman being embraced fully by fans, casuals and critics (because people have this idea of Superman in their minds). And for better or worse, any movie and portrayal will be judged based on those notions people have.
> 
> Snyder's version - I like what he did in MOS, and it made me a fan of Superman (and I know quite a few people who became fans of Superman after watching that movie). So, in my mind, Snyder has done well. I can't comment on what he did with JL (concluded the Superman arc) since I haven't watched it yet.


No version would be fully embraced, and MoS was divisive, not universally panned. But with hindsight, and the lack of effective follow up to MoS in the form of a solo Superman trilogy, we're not left with something good. They wanted to do a deconstructive take on Superman: that's something that needs to be done in a series of movies dedicated only to him, and it's debateable how wise it was to lead with that when these movies they are spending millions of dollars on need to be somewhat safe to please the greatest number of people. At least for the first outing.  Snyder didn't deserve the hate he received, at least for that film on its own, but they should probably have stepped back and planned things out better and maybe not have had him proceed any further.

They don't have faith in the character as he is. DC in general, off and on since 1986, hasn't had faith in him, and their continued attempts to "fix" him from the Byrne reboot to the DCEU haven't done the job and have actually made the situation worse in the long run. Historically, it could be said that the various attempts to dick around with the character to remove him from the popular perception from the 60s/70s hasn't actually worked. It's had the opposite effect because he hasn't had the same degree of popularity ever since. That kind of says it all.

----------


## Thomas Crown

> So, in my mind, Snyder has done well. I can't comment on what he did with JL (concluded the Superman arc) since I haven't watched it yet.


Believe me, the way Superman was portrayed in JL is NOT the real conclusion to Snyder's arc for the character. It felt like a sports channel cutting the last laps of a car race and showing only the winner already in the podium getting his trophy.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Oh god that is concept art for Zatanna is PERFECT and the casting is amazing. All of that looks so great, but her especially. I want a solo flick of Natalie Dormer as that Zee.

----------


## Soubhagya

> That's a what if scenario, and it's pointless to engage in that at this time. Especially as Marvel isn't experimenting too much with the onscreen portrayals of their characters and they are laughing all the way to the bank. 
> 
> The reality of the situation is that we now have a Wonder Woman film that embraced the versions of her from the comic and it was in turn embraced by audiences and critics. We can now safely say that the Superman experiment, despite whatever potential it may have had at one point, has been botched and failed. And probably wasn't necessary to begin with; there is nothing to suggest a Silver Age style Superman wouldn't have worked in a modern context and wouldn't have been embraced by fans, critics and casuals alike. Cavill played a Silver Age style Superman in this and it's one of the few things people liked in this otherwise turd sandwich of a movie. And now the whole thing was a waste of time and may have cost us seeing more of this actor in the role, which would be a damn shame.


I agree with you here. There's no proof to suggest that Silver Age Superman won't work now. Superman Returns is cosmetic as far as Silver Age goes in my opinion. And was ultimately boring. What they did with MoS was interesting and by pointing the BO i would suggest that it did okay with the audiences. Yet it turned out to be too divisive among critics and the fans. And without seeing the full story ultimately it failed as an experiment. At this time i think maybe a safer take might have been better.

----------


## Johnny

> Oh god that is concept art for Zatanna is PERFECT and the casting is amazing. All of that looks so great, but her especially. I want a solo flick of Natalie Dormer as that Zee.


I don't see them casting a white girl for Zatanna, despite that her ethnicity has always been kind of a mystery to me. Natalie Dormer could've been a good choice though.

----------


## Confuzzled

Natalie Dormer was born to play Poison Ivy. It's not even funny how perfect she is for the role.

[IMG]https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/sites/sbs.com.au*****ics/files/styles/body_image/public/tumblr_o672t8v26v1r0xiofo1_500.gif?itok=gEd0-kOZ&mtime=1471401617[/IMG]

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> Audience and critics could care less her portrayal in comics. How can we attribute the movie's success to faithfulness to Diana's portrayal in comics? (You seem to implying that; forgive me if I misinterpreted that).


Faithfulness to the comics doesn't matter that much but faithfulness to the mainstream image these characters have can help with the general audience. Basically it is not about a restrictive faithfulness but about staying true to the inner truth of the characters and their stories, why they have stayed in public consciousness for all these decades.

Also if you can make a successful film by staying true to the source material, it is always preferable because there is no reason to annoy a part of your audience unless there is a higher artistic reason.




> Marvel has a blessing here because they were primarily dealing with their B and C list heroes (since everyone else was either with Fox or Sony...but things have changed now with Disney buying Fox). They didn't have to deal with preconceived notions about their characters on how they were supposed to be. *Any version they adapted (so long as the movie was done well) would have been received well.*


And here is the most important thing, "so long as the movie was well done". The reason I dislike BvS is that I found it a really bad movie. The fact that I found Batman and Superman out of character was just adding insult to injury. Superman was "out of character" in Miller's "Dark Knight Returns" and it's one of my favorite comics ever. I love Miller's storytelling in DKR, his characterization, the satire etc. I could rave about it for paragraphs, it's a major reason I didn't abandon comics during adolescence. It shows that if you're going to break these toys you better have the artistic chops to justify it.

As another example think of Heath Ledger's Joker. Nothing like what people thought of the character, yet they embraced this new version because they found it well done.

----------


## Frontier

> Oh god that is concept art for Zatanna is PERFECT and the casting is amazing. All of that looks so great, but her especially. I want a solo flick of Natalie Dormer as that Zee.


That looks nothing like Zatanna.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Oh god that is concept art for Zatanna is PERFECT and the casting is amazing. All of that looks so great, but her especially. I want a solo flick of Natalie Dormer as that Zee.





> That looks nothing like Zatanna.


I think it looks terrible and I agree it looks nothing like Zatanna.  Looks like some homeless street kid or someone trying to emulate the look of one.  Why are some people who make movies
so terrified of giving the characters the costumes they wear on the comic books?

----------


## Confuzzled

It just looks like the black/goth variant of Suicide Squad's Harley Quinn. It's clearly inspired by that look and its success.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think it looks terrible and I agree it looks nothing like Zatanna.  Looks like some homeless street kid or someone trying to emulate the look of one.  Why are some people who make movies
> so terrified of giving the characters the costumes they wear on the comic books?


I've seen homeless kids. They dress nothing like that.

And it isn't like the comic costumes are all so great either.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I've seen homeless kids. They dress nothing like that.
> 
> And it isn't like the comic costumes are all so great either.


Lol, yeah her usual costume in the comics is godawful. 

I'm fond of her getup from the satellite era but outside of that? Oh man.

----------


## Frontier

> Lol, yeah her usual costume in the comics is godawful. 
> 
> I'm fond of her getup from the satellite era but outside of that? Oh man.


I don't see how her satellite getup is any less outlandish or bad then her usual costume. 

At least her normal costume does a better job of conveying her character and status as the "Mistress of Magic" then this concept art that makes her look like your average punk rocker or a random John Constantine girlfriend.



> It just looks like the black/goth variant of Suicide Squad's Harley Quinn. It's clearly inspired by that look and its success.


I dunno, I can see the similarities but I think there's enough differences to where it was probably not intentional. 

Still doesn't make it more fitting for Zatanna though.

----------


## Triple J

> It's not the only reason for success, but I think it definitely helped. The film being competently made the way it was allowed the greatest number of groups to embrace it: fans, critics and the general audience. And women in all three groups. The casuals aren't going out buying comics because no matter what they do and what characters they push, comics are a niche medium with the superhero genre being an even smaller niche. But thanks to stuff like Lynda Carter and the idea that Wonder Woman is a female superhero who can stand on her own with the big boys, everyone has an idea of what they want Wonder Woman to be like. And the film delivered for the majority. The key was catering to the majority, not catering to whatever minority voices are out there saying a loving Wonder Woman would be lame and she needed to be flawed and badass. 
> 
> No version would be fully embraced, and MoS was divisive, not universally panned. But with hindsight, and the lack of effective follow up to MoS in the form of a solo Superman trilogy, we're not left with something good. They wanted to do a deconstructive take on Superman: that's something that needs to be done in a series of movies dedicated only to him, and it's debateable how wise it was to lead with that when these movies they are spending millions of dollars on need to be somewhat safe to please the greatest number of people. At least for the first outing.  Snyder didn't deserve the hate he received, at least for that film on its own, but they should probably have stepped back and planned things out better and maybe not have had him proceed any further.
> 
> They don't have faith in the character as he is. DC in general, off and on since 1986, hasn't had faith in him, and their continued attempts to "fix" him from the Byrne reboot to the DCEU haven't done the job and have actually made the situation worse in the long run. Historically, it could be said that the various attempts to dick around with the character to remove him from the popular perception from the 60s/70s hasn't actually worked. It's had the opposite effect because he hasn't had the same degree of popularity ever since. That kind of says it all.


I suppose so. Anyways, I am glad that the film landed well.

That is something I agree with - I do wish Snyder got a chance to do a Superman trilogy first, and then delve deeper into the world of DC. Again, I am not sure how much of a hand WB had in all of this, so I won't comment too much. As for DC trying to fix Superman, I do agree with it, at the same time, I do understand what they are/were trying to do - trying to make Superman relevant/popular again. It's a hard task, especially since different fans have different versions that they like (which is something they brought on themselves by having different iterations in the first place).





> Believe me, the way Superman was portrayed in JL is NOT the real conclusion to Snyder's arc for the character. It felt like a sports channel cutting the last laps of a car race and showing only the winner already in the podium getting his trophy.


Yeah, from what I have heard that seems to be the case (I have just moved away from Superhero movies in general after that). I will check Aquaman though.




> Faithfulness to the comics doesn't matter that much but faithfulness to the mainstream image these characters have can help with the general audience. Basically it is not about a restrictive faithfulness but about staying true to the inner truth of the characters and their stories, why they have stayed in public consciousness for all these decades.
> 
> Also if you can make a successful film by staying true to the source material, it is always preferable because there is no reason to annoy a part of your audience unless there is a higher artistic reason.
> 
> And here is the most important thing, "so long as the movie was well done". The reason I dislike BvS is that I found it a really bad movie. The fact that I found Batman and Superman out of character was just adding insult to injury. Superman was "out of character" in Miller's "Dark Knight Returns" and it's one of my favorite comics ever. I love Miller's storytelling in DKR, his characterization, the satire etc. I could rave about it for paragraphs, it's a major reason I didn't abandon comics during adolescence. It shows that if you're going to break these toys you better have the artistic chops to justify it.
> 
> As another example think of Heath Ledger's Joker. Nothing like what people thought of the character, yet they embraced this new version because they found it well done.


I don't disagree, but what is the inner truth then?

Fair enough. I liked the movie, think it's good, but I agree that it was flawed. I liked the premise, it could have executed in a better manner (especially the reason for fight; it could have easily been avoided if Clark had just said what Lex had done). Perhaps Lex could have created Red Kryptonite which allowed him to mind control Superman (although that might have been too contrived).

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't see how her satellite getup is any less outlandish or bad then her usual costume. 
> 
> At least her normal costume does a better job of conveying her character and status as the "Mistress of Magic" then this concept art that makes her look like your average punk rocker or a random John Constantine girlfriend.


Well she has dated John before so maybe this look isn't that inappropriate.

----------


## Frontier

> *Well she has dated John* before so maybe this look isn't that inappropriate.


Yeah, but it's not something that defines her or her style (certainly Zee isn't defined by John Constantine).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I've seen homeless kids. They dress nothing like that.
> 
> And it isn't like the comic costumes are all so great either.





> Lol, yeah her usual costume in the comics is godawful. 
> 
> I'm fond of her getup from the satellite era but outside of that? Oh man.


I'm talking about this costume. It's a great costume for a magician.  When I look at this, it's Zatanna, and no one else.   It's unique to Zatanna. When I see that other thing, nothing about it says Zatanna.






> Well she has dated John before so maybe this look isn't that inappropriate.





> Yeah, but it's not something that defines her or her style (certainly Zee isn't defined by John Constantine).


Right, a female character should be instantly recognizable on her own.  Wonder Woman doesn't need Steve Trevor to let us know she is Wonder Woman.
Catwoman doesn't need Batman to let us know she is Catwoman.  Harley Quinn doesn't need Joker to be around to let us know she is Harley Quinn.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Pls let Anne Hathaway play her.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Pls let Anne Hathaway play her.


If  I ran Warner Bros. I'd let Anne Hathaway be Catwoman again.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

The fishnets as pants is never going to be a thing, but just give her some shorts and boots and the rest of the classic ensemble works pretty well.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> If  I ran Warner Bros. I'd let Anne Hathaway be Catwoman again.


Nah as much as I like her, I don't think her Catwoman is great. We need someone tougher.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Nah as much as I like her, I don't think her Catwoman is great. We need someone tougher.


Seemed tough enough in The Dark Knight Rises.  Knocked the crap out of a bunch of full grown men and killed Bane.

----------


## Frontier

> The fishnets as pants is never going to be a thing, *but just give her some shorts and boots and the rest of the classic ensemble works pretty we*ll.


That's what they did with Black Canary's Rebirth design (though I don't think you need to do that with Zatanna).

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Seemed tough enough in The Dark Knight Rises.  Knocked the crap out of a bunch of full grown men and killed Bane.


Not enough for Catwoman.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> And here is the most important thing, "so long as the movie was well done". The reason I dislike BvS is that I found it a really bad movie. The fact that I found Batman and Superman out of character was just adding insult to injury. Superman was "out of character" in Miller's "Dark Knight Returns" and it's one of my favorite comics ever. I love Miller's storytelling in DKR, his characterization, the satire etc. I could rave about it for paragraphs, it's a major reason I didn't abandon comics during adolescence. It shows that if you're going to break these toys you better have the artistic chops to justify it.
> 
> As another example think of Heath Ledger's Joker. Nothing like what people thought of the character, yet they embraced this new version because they found it well done.


This.   I see a lot Snyder fans accusing detractors of Snyder's take on the characters as only disliking them because  they're nostalgic for the previous version of characters when it's not necessarily the case.

----------


## Confuzzled

The fishnets go better with the grey tights.



Speaking of, who else here wouldn't mind trading in the Justice League Dark movie for a Mystik U movie?  :Stick Out Tongue:  DC could have its very own Harry Potter-esque franchise.

----------


## Agent Z

> This.   *I see a lot Snyder fans accusing detractors of Snyder's take on the characters as only disliking them because  they're nostalgic for the previous version of characters* when it's not necessarily the case.


There have been several on this board and others who have flat out stated they hate Snyder's takes because they don't match the versions they're familiar with. We are after all talking about superhero fans.

----------


## Frontier

> The fishnets go better with the grey tights.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of, who else here wouldn't mind trading in the Justice League Dark movie for a Mystik U movie?  DC could have its very own Harry Potter-esque franchise.


I think there's probably more of an audience for something like Mystik U then _Justice League Dark,_ even if I think the latter works better as a DCEU movie.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think there's probably more of an audience for something like Mystik U then _Justice League Dark,_ *even if I think the latter works better as a DCEU movie.*


Well, I think Shazam is going to challenge a lot of people's perceptions of what a "DCEU movie" can be.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Mystik U will fit perfectly with such a film.

----------


## Frontier

> *Well, I think Shazam is going to challenge a lot of people's perceptions of what a "DCEU movie" can be*.  Mystik U will fit perfectly with such a film.


One can hope  :Smile: .

----------


## Slowpokeking

I really hope she could come back to DCEU, also she looks even better without the thick filter! Same with Gadot.

----------


## Styles

Shazam! Brings in Walking Dead Star Cooper Andrews

----------


## Frontier

> Shazam! Brings in Walking Dead Star Cooper Andrews


I kind of wonder if they might have him portray a re-imagined Uncle Dudley...

----------


## BatmanJones

Surprised not to see a lot of talk here about Matthew Vaughn wanting to "save DC films" and apparently having pitched several projects already and probably doing MoS 2...

To me if the director of X-Men: First Class and Kick-Ass wants to be the Kevin Feige of the DCU, especially if he can get his longtime collaborator Mark Millar involved eventually, I'd do that every day and twice on Sunday.

I wasn't crazy about what he said about going back to Adam West Batman but I don't imagine that's an idea that would survive the transition.

I trust in Matthew Vaughn. And we NEED a "Kevin Feige" in the worst way.

Why aren't more people discussing this? It's been top news for two days at least on every comic book movie news site but I went back a couple pages here and didn't see any mention of it at all.

You guys know about this, right? Would love to hear people's opinions about his desire to "save DC movies" which is the language that's in all the headlines. I think DC would be very lucky to have him in that capacity but I'm so curious to hear what the rest of you think about it.

----------


## TheSupernaut

> Surprised not to see a lot of talk here about Matthew Vaughn wanting to "save DC films" and apparently having pitched several projects already and probably doing MoS 2...
> 
> To me if the director of X-Men: First Class and Kick-Ass wants to be the Kevin Feige of the DCU, especially if he can get his longtime collaborator Mark Millar involved eventually, I'd do that every day and twice on Sunday.
> 
> I wasn't crazy about what he said about going back to Adam West Batman but I don't imagine that's an idea that would survive the transition.
> 
> I trust in Matthew Vaughn. And we NEED a "Kevin Feige" in the worst way.
> 
> Why aren't more people discussing this? It's been top news for two days at least on every comic book movie news site but I went back a couple pages here and didn't see any mention of it at all.
> ...


I'm taking a wait and see approach to it. I wouldn't necessarily call myself a fan.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I'm taking a wait and see approach to it. I wouldn't necessarily call myself a fan.


Of Vaughn's directing? I've only seen Kick-Ass and X-Men First Class. I liked Kick-Ass. I loved X-Men First Class and thought it was an object lesson in rebooting a franchise. Thanks for sharing your opinion. It's so surprising to me that this is the top DC film headline everywhere but the last 5-6 pages here have been about discarded Zatanna art.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I need more information before I can really get excited. His Adam West and Chris Reeve comments are somewhat concerning, but I doubt he'd be able to get that past WB.

He IS a damn good director and his passion for Superman is obvious, so I definitely believe he can make good things happen. 

Is he the savior the DCEU needs? Maybe. There's already plenty of other great directors in the mix as well. Jenkins, Wan, Sandberg, and Reeve aren't exactly slouches either.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Of Vaughn's directing? I've only seen Kick-Ass and X-Men First Class. I liked Kick-Ass. I loved X-Men First Class and thought it was an object lesson in rebooting a franchise. Thanks for sharing your opinion. It's so surprising to me that this is the top DC film headline everywhere but the last 5-6 pages here have been about discarded Zatanna art.


I didn't know there were conversations, only saw the Adam West quote which is probably being overblown, so thanks for bringing it to our attention. I liked both films and thought First Class was excellent so I'd be down so long as he doesn't subvert absolutely everything about the already established Universe.

I really liked this line about team-up superhero movies:

*"But how many times can we see all these guys come together to fight off an alien invasion?*

Totally agreed.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I really liked this line about team-up superhero movies:
> 
> *"But how many times can we see all these guys come together to fight off an alien invasion?”*
> 
> Totally agreed.


SOOOOO TRUE!

Here's one of the many articles that all basically say the same thing, which I should have posted when I brought Vaughn up since I haven't seen this story posted here, oddly enough.... I'll include the leads to the articles but not the articles themselves because I think it's always better to let the site that posted the news get a click to read the whole thing...

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/super...ojects-a156427

*Matthew Vaughn Is Interested In Saving The DC Films Universe And Has Talked To WB About A Number Of Projects*
Kingsman: The Golden Cirlce director Matthew Vaughn has talked to Warner Bros. about a number of DC Comics adaptation and now has his eye on saving the DC Films Universe as he did the X-Men back in 2011.

Warner Bros. hasn't found a great deal of success with the DC Films Universe with only Wonder Woman a true critical and commercial hit. Well, Kingsman: The Golden Circle director Matthew Vaughn - who we know has discussed the Man of Steel sequel with the studio - is looking to save this comic book world and confirms that he's spoken to Warner Bros. about a number of DC projects.... (cont'd at link above)

And here's another article on why he'd prefer to direct for DC than Marvel now:

https://screenrant.com/matthew-vaughn-dc-marvel/

*Matthew Vaughn Would Rather Work With DC Than Marvel Right Now*
By Dusty Stowe  12.18.2017
Man of Steel 2 - Matthew Vaughn may direct

Kingsman: The Golden Circle director Matthew Vaughn would prefer to work with DC over Marvel right now for a somewhat surprising reason: he feels there would be much less pressure to succeed with the somewhat beleaguered DCEU.

Vaughn is no stranger to big screen comic book adaptations. After coming to prominence with the Daniel Craig starring drug thriller Layer Cake, Vaughn helmed Kingsman and Kick-Ass, both adaptations of comics created by Mark Millar. Vaughn also revived the floundering X-Men film franchise with the 2011 reboot X-Men: First Class, which was set in the 1960s and injected a new sense of style and fun into the angsty world of mutants. (cont'd at link above)

----------


## Slowpokeking

MoS2 NEEDS to happen.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I kind of wonder if they might have him portray a re-imagined Uncle Dudley...


It seems like they are going the _Young Justice_ route with Uncle Dudley running Billy's foster home. How was it in the New 52 though? Who took care of Billy and the other kids?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Ben Affleck Still Wants To Direct A BATMAN Movie; May Be Evaluating A Return To The Role:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batma...e-role-a156477

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> *Ben Affleck Still Wants To Direct A BATMAN Movie; May Be Evaluating A Return To The Role:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batma...e-role-a156477


WTF? A little too late now with Reeves in control of the Batman films.

----------


## Lightning Rider

*“For me, it’s interesting, and I always evaluate this stuff on the merit of the material. I want to direct a Batman movie, and I never got a script that I was happy with, so they are starting over and writing another script. And right now, I think a lot of different possibilities I think for the way the DC Universe could go, and I will just follow my interests in pursing that. And I know that I love working with this group of people, and it was a real joy for me to make this movie.”
*

The details aren't as important to me as the implication that he's still happy to engage the role further and work with this Universe with an open mind. Really makes me happy.

----------


## Robotman

Despite Ben leaving the door open for a return to the Batcave I think WB is done with him as their Batman. Justice League was a huge embarrassment and they will most likely want to start fresh and downplay as much connection as they can to the Snyderverse.

----------


## ironman2978

> It seems like they are going the _Young Justice_ route with Uncle Dudley running Billy's foster home. How was it in the New 52 though? Who took care of Billy and the other kids?


Billy and his family came together under two parents. He had a woman running the foster home but she is a cold woman 

Then he gets adopted by Victor and Rosa Vasquez, which is where he met the other kids in the first place.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Billy and his family came together under two parents. He had a woman running the foster home but she is a cold woman 
> 
> Then he gets adopted by Victor and Rosa Vasquez, which is where he met the other kids in the first place.


Interesting. I didn't know about the Vasquezes. Are they aware of what Billy and the other kids are up to or are they the "Aunt May/Aunt Harriet" types of doting clueless figures?

----------


## ironman2978

> Interesting. I didn't know about the Vasquezes. Are they aware of what Billy and the other kids are up to or are they the "Aunt May/Aunt Harriet" types of doting clueless figures?


Pretty much for the most part they were the Aunt May/Aunt Harriet figures. It would have been interesting to see how the comics would have developed their characters more to be honest.

----------


## Johnny

> *Ben Affleck Still Wants To Direct A BATMAN Movie; May Be Evaluating A Return To The Role:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batma...e-role-a156477


No. He had his chance and stepped down. I understand he did it mostly for personal reasons but what's done is done. It's dead. Bury it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Surprised not to see a lot of talk here about Matthew Vaughn wanting to "save DC films" and apparently having pitched several projects already and probably doing MoS 2...
> 
> To me if the director of X-Men: First Class and Kick-Ass wants to be the Kevin Feige of the DCU, especially if he can get his longtime collaborator Mark Millar involved eventually, I'd do that every day and twice on Sunday.
> 
> I wasn't crazy about what he said about going back to Adam West Batman but I don't imagine that's an idea that would survive the transition.
> 
> I trust in Matthew Vaughn. And we NEED a "Kevin Feige" in the worst way.
> 
> Why aren't more people discussing this? It's been top news for two days at least on every comic book movie news site but I went back a couple pages here and didn't see any mention of it at all.
> ...


I'd heard rumblings about him wanting to direct MoS2 but I hadn't heard anything about him wanting to be the "Feige of the DCEU."

Make no mistake, DC needs a different guiding vision for their film franchise in the worst way after people didn't respond to Snyder's the way they'd hoped. I'm just not sure Vaughn would be the guy to do it. I've only seen _First Class_ because I don't are for Mark Millar or his work and, therefore, won't see any of the _Kick-Ass_ or _Kingsman_ films or whatever other Millar works Vaughn wants to adapt.

That said, I wasn't overly impressed with FC. It felt very superficial to me. It felt like it was trying to be a golden-age James Bond instead of X-Men, but it did have some good stuff in it. So I'm conflicted about how well he could do with the DC lexicon. I suppose I'd be willing to give him a shot.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> It's dead. Bury it.


I see what you did there. ;-)

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

I want Vaughn as far away from the DC universe as possible after reading this.




> "*If I was going to do Batman, there's no point doing the Dark Knight, because it's been done to perfection — if I was doing Batman, I'd go 'Christ, let's bring out the Adam West version,'" Vaughn added. "I'm not interested in copying somebody else's take on the genre.*"


http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/18/m...-films-marvel/

 Vaughn is overrated and while I found his Kickass amusing somewhat it didn't blow me away.  I prefer someone else like George Miller, but how about an unconventional choice like Ex _Machina's _ Alex Garland?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Maybe Ben Affleck can direct the adventures of the Batman of Earth-2? :P 

Just like two and a half hours of Ben Affleck's Batman sitting in Wayne Manor ranting about punk kids these days ruining the JSA or something. Can be advertised as the first minimalist, experimental superhero film.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> *“For me, it’s interesting, and I always evaluate this stuff on the merit of the material. I want to direct a Batman movie, and I never got a script that I was happy with, so they are starting over and writing another script. And right now, I think a lot of different possibilities I think for the way the DC Universe could go, and I will just follow my interests in pursing that. And I know that I love working with this group of people, and it was a real joy for me to make this movie.”
> *
> 
> The details aren't as important to me as the implication that he's still happy to engage the role further and work with this Universe with an open mind. Really makes me happy.


Interesting claim about the script.  Because just before he stepped aside as director there were reports he had submitted his script to Warner Bros. and they were very happy with what he
gave them.  Now he is claiming he didn't like the script he wrote?




> I want Vaughn as far away from the DC universe as possible after reading this.
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/18/m...-films-marvel/
> 
>  Vaughn is overrated and while I found his Kickass amusing somewhat it didn't blow me away.  I prefer someone else like George Miller, but how about an unconventional choice like Ex _Machina's _ Alex Garland?


I think the Frank Miller Batman has been done to death. Literally. It is killing the movies now. When Tim Burton went with that version in 1989 it was revolutionary and people loved that version but hated it
when Joel Schumacher went back to the Adam West version of Batman.  So they welcomed when Christopher Nolan went back to Miller version.  But now it is just the same old thing with a different actor
and people are bored with that.  So maybe a return to an Adam West type Batman is just what the movies need to get people back into the theaters again. The Lego Batman movie seemed to do well.

----------


## Agent Z

> Interesting claim about the script.  Because just before he stepped aside as director there were reports he had submitted his script to Warner Bros. and they were very happy with what he
> gave them.  Now he is claiming he didn't like the script he wrote?
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Frank Miller Batman has been done to death. Literally. It is killing the movies now. When Tim Burton went with that version in 1989 it was revolutionary and people loved that version but hated it
> when Joel Schumacher went back to the Adam West version of Batman.  So they welcomed when Christopher Nolan went back to Miller version.  But now it is just the same old thing with a different actor
> and people are bored with that.  So maybe a return to an Adam West type Batman is just what the movies need to get people back into the theaters again. The Lego Batman movie seemed to do well.


Except that Nolan didn't do the Miller version. Furthermore, there's takes on Batman besides Miller and West. 

There is no proof that people will flock to theaters for an Adam West rehash. For as controversial as BvS was, people still remember the Shumacher movies and won't get fooled again.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Interesting claim about the script.  Because just before he stepped aside as director there were reports he had submitted his script to Warner Bros. and they were very happy with what he
> gave them.  Now he is claiming he didn't like the script he wrote?


 Affleck is a  hard man to please.  They may have been happy with what he wrote but he might not have been.




> I think the Frank Miller Batman has been done to death. Literally. It is killing the movies now. When Tim Burton went with that version in 1989 it was revolutionary and people loved that version but hated it
> when Joel Schumacher went back to the Adam West version of Batman.  So they welcomed when Christopher Nolan went back to Miller version.  But now it is just the same old thing with a different actor
> and people are bored with that.  So maybe a return to an Adam West type Batman is just what the movies need to get people back into the theaters again. The Lego Batman movie seemed to do well.


Neither the Burton or Nolan versions were really that close to the Frank Miller versions. Burton's version hewed more closely to the original Golden age Batman, while Nolan's Batman hewed more to the bronze age versions.   If you're talking about the darker, more serious tone then  I disagree. Tonally the closets the movies ever got to that Miller version is Affleck's take. And  Lego Batman is not a good exemplar for a lighter toned Batman working  as that's in a totally different medium from live-action; it's much easier to get away with that type of sillier version in animation than in  live-action.

----------


## Jokerz79

I love Adam West's Batman and think the animated films recently released were the best Batman films of the last two years. But I wouldn't want see that version on the big screen again.

As for Miller's Batman it's one of the most over rated versions of Batman ever and no he didn't give Batman his balls back or was responsible for the return of the Dark Knight. That was Denny O'Neill and Neal Adams all Miller did was turn Batman into a border line psychopath. 

There has to be a nice middle ground between West and Miller.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There is no proof that people will flock to theaters for an Adam West rehash. For as controversial as BvS was, people still remember the Shumacher movies and won't get fooled again.


Totally different audience now from fifty years ago, too. The Adam West comedy show was targeted to people who thought superheroes were either stupid or juvenile.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Ben Affleck still playing 'will he, won't he?' to the question on whether he'll reprise the Batman role.  




> “For me, it’s interesting, and I always evaluate this stuff on the merit of the material. I want to direct a Batman movie, and I never got a script that I was happy with, so they are starting over and writing another script. And right now, I think a lot of different possibilities I think for the way the DC Universe could go, and I will just follow my interests in pursing that. And I know that I love working with this group of people, and it was a real joy for me to make this movie”


https://www.dailysabah.com/arts-cult...uperhero-films

----------


## Noek

Ok at this point I say have Affleck do the DCEU Batman star, direct, and write it. And let Reeves do his own universe Batman cause I feel these 2 are going to but heads so much it will ruin it for everyone. 
Affleck will be upset that his vision wasn't seen, Reeves will be upset he isn't getting a star he wanted, fans will be upset for getting a mixed message mess, critics will be upset at another bad DCEU film, and WB will be upset at Batman not bringing in the box office he should be.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> No. He had his chance and stepped down. I understand he did it mostly for personal reasons but what's done is done. *It's dead. Bury it.*


I can't help but read this post without using my handy DKR Bane autotune, especially the last sentence.

DKR Bane sounds more epic than ol' Hank.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

I'd be happy for a Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams/Steve Englehart style Batman in a trilogy.

I'd like to see Dick Grayson as Robin, who becomes Nightwing in the 3rd film.

----------


## BatmanJones

I'll repeat my prior theory that Affleck's waffling on these films is not really about the films. I mean, surely he was disappointed by their reception. I'm sure everyone involved was. But Affleck has stuff going on in his personal life, some really tough demons to fight (alcoholism and almost certainly its brother depression especially when so newly sober) and I think that's the piece nobody is talking about.

I know these feelings well. I know the feeling of first seeing a therapist after nearly 40 years of living as a clinically depressed person with type 1 bipolar disorder. When I made my first attempts to get right with myself, stop lying (as all addicts lie), start telling the truth, all the necessary things to lead an authentic life... It was harder than hell and I vividly remember a moment in time when I was running a theatre in Providence and after I'd been hired, enormous/catastrophic debt had been discovered, and I kept changing my mind as to whether it was my job to fix it or not. It was not the job I signed up for but I kept trying anyway. And the circumstances were so bad that no funders would touch this theatre that had gone after one emergency funding request after another. It wasn't my theatre, though I'd been newly hired, so it wasn't my battle to wage. And ultimately I left with a generous settlement from the board which had brought me there under false pretenses, not knowing of the debt.

That whole scene felt as messy as the DCEU but I tell the story because of a thing the board president said to me during the crucible of deciding to go or stay and fight for a thing that wasn't mine.

She said, "I just don't understand. One day you're so "can-do" and the next you're totally "can't do." Why?"

And the reason of course was that I was dealing with a difficult career choice, was untreated for serious mental health issues, and I was rapid cycling from the mania of "we can do this!" to the depression of "this was not what I signed up for AT ALL."

So I was "can-do" and then "can't-do." As many times as Affleck has been about Batman and that's a lot.

It seems to me that the only way he winds up in a situation of total reversal (suddenly wanting to direct and play Batman again after months of slowly stepping away) is from radical mood changes.

And if he is indeed an alcoholic that is sober for the first time, he's going through the ringer. And, as a result, he's putting everyone that cares about these characters and movies through the ringer. I did the same thing with that board at that theatre because I wasn't just going through a difficult career thing (which all worked out to the best in every way and the theatre never did recover and closed soon after, proving I'd made the right decision to walk away); much more importantly I was going through dealing with my mental health and drinking booze each night like a boss. Like I was drinking and drugging for a living. 

If Affleck is serious about sobriety, and this is new to him, his wild mood swings wrt Batman/DC Films are absolutely normal. But that doesn't mean anyone has to put up with it.

Mental illness and substance abuse and recovery from each is a LONG, HARD road. But it's only a possible explanation, not an excuse.

As the commercial goes, "Depression hurts everybody," meaning the one that's depressed and everyone that loves them.

Affleck's behavior when it comes to these movies has been utterly manic in the swings from one extreme to the other and I think it's quite possible he's an alcoholic because he's bipolar as I am.

And I see this as THE issue (not one issue but the prime issue) when it comes to Affleck and Batman and DC movies. I dearly hope he'll continue his path to recovery and that that might even mean he comes back for some DC stuff. But that can't be his priority now. I strongly suspect he has a lot of work to do to get right with himself so he can begin to make rational decisions and stick with them. I'm in no way surprised he's not there yet and so I'm in no way surprised by his otherwise bizarre behavior.

I remain surprised there isn't more talk of Vaughn saying he wants to "SAVE" the DC film universe, whether people like him or not. Because what DC films needs more than any actor or director is our own version of "Kevin Feige." If it's not Vaughn, who should it be? It really needs to be SOMEBODY and apparently it won't be Johns now who seemed to be the most obvious candidate so who should it be?

That and not anything about Zatanna's costume or Affleck's waffling is THE question facing those in charge of future DC films. And the answer to that question will have more impact than any other thing on future DC movies.

I'm not a film buff--I work in theatre and I'm a comic book buff but I'm not well studied in film so I don't even know who the possible names would be. I was really taken with X-Men: First Class though. It felt like a perfect universe reset to me so I was excited when I learned he wanted to be our "Feige" (or so it sounded) but I've read the criticism of him here and more than anything I'm just interested in who people think SHOULD play that role for DC Films going forward. The closest thing DC had to a Feige was Snyder and, however people feel about his contributions, he's out. For reasons from Snyder's vision to WB stepping on his vision (always a disastrous thing) it did not work and WB isn't looking back. He's out. So who should be in charge? To me we need a Feige like nobody's business. Nobody is in charge except that awful exec who mandated the 2 hour limit on JL.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I'd be happy for a Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams/Steve Englehart style Batman in a trilogy.
> 
> I'd like to see Dick Grayson as Robin, who becomes Nightwing in the 3rd film.


YES, YES, YES! AND THANK YOU! 

That would be a real dream come true. I hate that we've had so many Batman movies with nary a Robin (and I ONLY want to see Dick Grayson before any other) to be found. And no the Shumacher films do not count. Chris O'Donnell was neither Robin nor Grayson and those Batman movies weren't even Batman movies. They were send-ups as surely as the Lego movies are. How many times have we watched Thomas and Martha Wayne be killed on film? (Answer: A lot.) And how many times have we seen Batman and Robin on film, if we're not counting send-ups? (Answer: NEVER.)

And what is a bigger property than Batman and Robin? How have they never done this yet?

Your pitch is EXACTLY what I want out of the next Batman movies.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> Neither the Burton or Nolan versions were really that close to the Frank Miller versions. Burton's version hewed more closely to the original Golden age Batman, while Nolan's Batman hewed more to the bronze age versions.   If you're talking about the darker, more serious tone then  I disagree. Tonally the closets the movies ever got to that Miller version is Affleck's take.


"Batman Begins" reminded me more of Miller and Mazzucchelli's "Batman Year One" than any bronze age Batman I've read. Bronze age Batman was still a superhero basically (and my favorite version mind you), the grounded "realistic" approach, Flass and the corrupt police, inexperienced Batman, the meatier Gordon role, the Alfred who's not so much in favor of Bruce becoming Batman come from "Year One" (to my knowledge). The tank-style Batmobile is DKR. I remember when the film was coming out people like Nolan and Bale were mentioning comics like "Year One" and "The Long Halloween" (which was tonally influenced by Year One) as major inspirations. I even managed to find a quote, and I know there were others:

"In the interview, Bale spoke about his inspiration behind playing the Caped Crusader, chalking up a lot of credit to Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli's "Batman: Year One" miniseries for turning him around on the potential that comic book characters have on the screen."

http://www.mtv.com/news/2599821/dark...tman-year-one/

As for Miller's Batman, he would never set out to murder Superman like Snyder's version did. To be honest, no Batman version I know of would do that. The only thing he got correctly from Miller was the visuals.

I agree with your point about Burton's Batman being closer to the Golden age of the character than any other though.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

DC/WB should be looking for their own Tom Holland to play Dick Grayson.

Include him a new Batman trilogy. The Batman year one stuff has been done to death, year three would be new.

An established actor should have a lot of fun playing Tony Zucco. Plus, I just love the animated versions of Zucco, and how much Batman clearly despises him.

Batman is so unemotional, yet with Zucco, the Dark Knight just wants to beat the heck out of him.

Zucco knows its personal, but has no clue why.

Exploring Batman as a parent would be new ground to explore on film.

If Richard proves to be a fan-favorite, then introduce the Titans (instead of a solo Robin film).

Treat the fans to an eventual team-up between the Justice League & the Titans, like the Avengers will do with the Guardians.

As the actor ages, make him Nightwing.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> "Batman Begins" reminded me more of Miller and Mazzucchelli's "Batman Year One" than any bronze age Batman I've read. Bronze age Batman was still a superhero basically (and my favorite version mind you), the grounded "realistic" approach, Flass and the corrupt police, inexperienced Batman, the meatier Gordon role, the Alfred who's not so much in favor of Bruce becoming Batman come from "Year One" (to my knowledge). The tank-style Batmobile is DKR. I remember when the film was coming out people like Nolan and Bale were mentioning comics like "Year One" and "The Long Halloween" (which was tonally influenced by Year One) as major inspirations. I even managed to find a quote, and I know there were others:
> 
> "In the interview, Bale spoke about his inspiration behind playing the Caped Crusader, chalking up a lot of credit to Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli's "Batman: Year One" miniseries for turning him around on the potential that comic book characters have on the screen."
> 
> http://www.mtv.com/news/2599821/dark...tman-year-one/
> 
> As for Miller's Batman, he would never set out to murder Superman like Snyder's version did. To be honest, no Batman version I know of would do that. The only thing he got correctly from Miller was the visuals.
> 
> I agree with your point about Burton's Batman being closer to the Golden age of the character than any other though.


Keep in mind: When I say 'Miller Batman' I'm  more referring to the version found in _The Dark Knight Returns_( I believe 'Year One' shares the same continuity as it) than I am of the one found in_ Year One_ who I consider almost a different character from him.   I sort of consider 'Year One' as essentially part of the Bronze age Batman since most of  the  modern Batman continuity had 'Year One' be  the canon   version of Batman's beginnings and a lot of modern bronze age comics  that center on Batman's early years expand upon _Year One_  like  _Batman: Mad Monk_ and _Batman: Prey_. You may find my reasoning to be faulty and superfluous but even though both were written by Miller I've always considered TDKR to Miller's to be the radical reinvention of Batman so much so that it feels so different from Miller's younger Batman that he also wrote.   But yeah eschewing Year One was a bit erroneous on my part but I always  tend to think about the  TDKR version more than I think of  the Year One version whenever someone mentions Miller Batman.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> *You may find my reasoning to be faulty and superfluous but even though both were written by Miller I've always considered TDKR to Miller's to be the radical reinvention of Batman so much so that it feels so different from Miller's younger Batman that he also wrote*.   But yeah eschewing Year One was a bit erroneous on my part but I always  tend to think about the  TDKR version more than I think of  the Year One version whenever someone mentions Miller Batman.


No, not at all, in fact I myself don't find a unique vision in Miller's Batman through the years. But I think people forget that Batman in DKR is a different character than the Batman of _Batman/Spawn_, _Dark Knight Strikes Back_ and _All Star Batman & Robin_ and sadly its the later version that comes to people's minds when they hear the term "Miller's Batman".

Batman in DKR doesn't force Carrie Kelly to eat rats and he is all bark and no bite when he threatens to fire her if she touches the controls of the Bat-copter (which she does, and he responds with a smile). He tries to help as many people as he can throughout the book and no matter what anger he carries within himself he cannot kill his enemies. In fact, not being able to kill the Joker is one of the most memorable scenes in the book. He doesn't dislike Commissioner Yindel even though she tries to capture him and even shoots at him and he warns her to save the Governor because he doesn't have time. And he is so optimistic that he believes that Harvey Dent is rehabilitated after his surgery, even though Gordon isn't. That's right! Even though the paranoid version of Batman somehow derives from DKR, in the actual book Batman shows more faith in the rehabilitation of Harvey Dent than Commissioner Gordon!

Also the fight with Superman doesn't happen because Batman hates him (though he obviously doesn't like him) but because Superman goes after him at the behest of the President.

In short I find Batman in DKR a largely sympathetic hero who could easily have been a possible future for Bronze age Batman, certainly the Batman from "Night of the Stalker" or from Detective Comics #478 where he is severely beating up 2 criminals and he has to be stopped by the police (that's right after Silver St. Cloud left him and he was angry). He is also quite different than later Miller versions. I clearly remember when _Dark Knight Strikes Back_ was coming out and people were ripping it apart because it was so different from DKR.

----------


## Slowpokeking

I think we need something else than Batman.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I think we need something else than Batman.


Good luck with all that.

----------


## Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.

> In short I find Batman in DKR a largely sympathetic hero who could easily have been a possible future for Bronze age Batman, certainly the Batman from "Night of the Stalker" or from Detective Comics #478 where he is severely beating up 2 criminals and he has to be stopped by the police (that's right after Silver St. Cloud left him and he was angry).


In support of my previous post here is Steve Englehart's opinion from an old interview that I remembered:




> Historically, it seems that Frank Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS spawned, for lack of a better term, "A-Hole Batman." For nearly 20 years, The Batman of the comic books was portrayed as an unlikable, neurotic, paranoid sociopath. Any thoughts on that take on the character?
> 
> *SE*: *Frank's stuff is brilliant, but what people who followed him never understood was, it takes place late in Batman's life, when Frank posits him as burned out.* When people after Frank tried to do that Batman as a younger, ongoing character, it never really worked. And the less it worked, the more they pushed it, for a long time - to the point where, as you say, he had no human component at all.


Remember that was a middle aged Batman, grumpier, having lost a Robin to crime and facing a crazier, more violent world. And he was still so highly principled that he couldn't kill.

----------


## Bossace

So I’m a bit frustrated with WB now, Arrow can’t really use deathstroke now because of their plans for DCEU. I’m not sure why they can’t let the arrow verse and DCEU both use characters? I love Arrow verse and feel DCEU is meh at best. Why punish a successful series for giving your characters even more exposure? Also we are allowed to have a flash but not minor characters like dead shot? I feel like WB is punishing something that works for something that is barely working.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...-limits-again/

----------


## Frontier

I will never understand these embargoes.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

If there can be 2 Flash why not 2 Deathstroke?  :Confused:

----------


## Badou

> So I’m a bit frustrated with WB now, Arrow can’t really use deathstroke now because of their plans for DCEU. I’m not sure why they can’t let the arrow verse and DCEU both use characters? I love Arrow verse and feel DCEU is meh at best. Why punish a successful series for giving your characters even more exposure? Also we are allowed to have a flash but not minor characters like dead shot? I feel like WB is punishing something that works for something that is barely working.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...-limits-again/


Probably means he is off limits to the Titans show too.

----------


## Bossace

It makes NO sense. We saw deathstroke for about 2 minutes in JL and we’ll maybe see him in a few years? While other shows can uprise him now and build more fans for if they even can do the injustice league one day.

----------


## Frontier

DC always has "plans." But when have these plans ever gone anywhere? 

There are "plans" for Ted Kord but that Blue and Gold movie looks like it's never happening. 

There are "plans" for John Stewart but no one seems to know what's really going on with the GLC movie, if it's even still on. 

There are "plans" for The Question but how knows if that'll end up being anything.

And you don't see them cancelling the Flash TV show just because Flash is in the movies. It's just ridiculous.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> So I’m a bit frustrated with WB now, Arrow can’t really use deathstroke now because of their plans for DCEU. I’m not sure why they can’t let the arrow verse and DCEU both use characters? I love Arrow verse and feel DCEU is meh at best. Why punish a successful series for giving your characters even more exposure? Also we are allowed to have a flash but not minor characters like dead shot? I feel like WB is punishing something that works for something that is barely working.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...-limits-again/


You're over estimating how much exposure the DCTV stuff gets, their a fraction of the people who watch the DCEU, DCEU is the biggest money maker for DC if WB wanna protect their assets then they can. 

WB owns DC. We are a slave to whatever decisions they make. It sucks, sometimes doesn't even make sense (like you said Flash isn't embargoed). But that's how it is.

----------


## Frontier

> You're over estimating how much exposure the DCTV stuff gets, their a fraction of the people who watch the DCEU, *DCEU is the biggest money maker for DC if WB wanna protect their assets then they can.* 
> 
> WB owns DC. We are a slave to whatever decisions they make. It sucks, sometimes doesn't even make sense (like you said Flash isn't embargoed). But that's how it is.


How is that "protecting assets?" Isn't it more like limiting them by preventing them from being used in certain mediums?

----------


## Clark_Kent

I believe the reason why Flash isn't under embargo is because the show is already running, he's the star, and it receives consistent ratings. If Flash was only a guest star on Arrow, you wouldn't see him anymore.  It's a situation where the show would not be greenlit if it were pitched today, due to the movies, but when the show was originally developed there were no concrete plans in place for him. Now that there are film plans, it's too late in the game to cancel the show outright (though embargoes for specific characters who appear in it can still happen). 

The same thing happened in 2005/2006 when Superman Returns was in development, and then releasing; Smallville was allowed to continue, because it was already on-air and had been for 5 seasons, but very specific rules were put in place for it. I don't understand the purpose of these embargoes (Superman was allowed to appear on Supergirl while JL was in development, but not Deathstroke?), but I wanted to chime in with what I know the answer to be in regards to Flash.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Probably means he is off limits to the Titans show too.


This is probably wrong but it's at least plausible that Titans could be the reason he's off the table. Maybe they're okay with having a TV Deathstroke and movie Deathstroke, as they do with The Flash, but not TWO TV Deathstrokes. If I only get one TV Deathstroke I'd much prefer to see him in Titans to seeing him on Arrow.

----------


## byrd156

> This is probably wrong but it's at least plausible that Titans could be the reason he's off the table. Maybe they're okay with having a TV Deathstroke and movie Deathstroke, as they do with The Flash, but not TWO TV Deathstrokes. If I only get one TV Deathstroke I'd much prefer to see him in Titans to seeing him on Arrow.


That could make sense and I would be happy with it. I just wish there could be multiple versions of the same characters without issues.

----------


## Jokerz79

I think they embargos are stupid I mean the early to mid 00's had some strange ones of 

Smallville: Couldn't use Batman or Bruce Wayne.

The Batman: This animated series couldn't use Ra's Al Ghul, Scare Crow, and Two-Face due to the Nolan films.

JLU: Could use Batman, but not his Rogues due to The Batman, and only use Aquaman as a guest role.

Now while stupid it also forced creators to be creative JLU brought to screen some of the more obscure villains of the DCU and who knows if we'd seen them if the Batman Rogues were available. Also Smallville did more with Green Arrow than I imagine they'd ever would had or could had done with Batman given DC would never allow him to be second banana for long and he would had been a guest role at best if allowed on the show.

----------


## Jokerz79

Speaking of TV and films I was doing some math and it's really amazing the lopsidedness of films released based on Marvel properties compared to DC since Marvel's first big hit Blade in 98. From Blade to Aqauman Marvel has had 14 TV series compared to DC's 13 about even but Marvel has had 60 films based off their properties compared to DC's 22. Oh it's not quality over quantity either because these include Catwoman, Green Lantern, and Jonah Hex to name some. Don't get me wrong there are some great ones too.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Speaking of TV and films I was doing some math and it's really amazing the lopsidedness of films released based on Marvel properties compared to DC since Marvel's first big hit Blade in 98. From Blade to Aqauman Marvel has had 14 TV series compared to DC's 13 about even but Marvel has had 60 films based off their properties compared to DC's 22. Oh it's not quality over quantity either because these include Catwoman, Green Lantern, and Jonah Hex to name some. Don't get me wrong there are some great ones too.


Eh, DC has dominated animation though while the less said about Marvel's output in the new century barring a couple of exceptions like _Spectacular Spider-Man_ (which was Sony produced) and _Earth's Mightiest Heroes_ (both shows which were dumped for more Marvel controlled products), the better.

And despite their consistency, none of the MCU films have been hailed as much as the Nolan Dark Knight films or Wonder Woman. Also it helped that 3 of the previous top Marvel brands (Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four) were at different studios which needed those franchises to be major hits in the early 00's, while WB was enjoying the super successes of the Harry Potter films and Lord of the Rings and didn't have the incentive to return to DC until the original LotR trilogy had wrapped.

DC was also the winner in the video game category with the Arkham games and Injustice.

----------


## Agent Z

> In support of my previous post here is Steve Englehart's opinion from an old interview that I remembered:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember that was a middle aged Batman, grumpier, having lost a Robin to crime and facing a crazier, more violent world. And he was still so highly principled that he couldn't kill.


He claimed not to kill but the bullets fired at the Mutants and the dead hostage taker say otherwise. The guy isn't exactly sane during this story and a more brutal Batman who somehow doesn't kill anyone would be about as believable as no one dying during the battle in MoS. 


In general, this rule is held up more by authorial fiat rather than action on the character's part. If Bruce set off a nuke downtown and then claimed people only came away with bruises, his fans would eat it up.

----------


## Barbatos666

TDKR Batman did not kill, its less about fans willingness to eat it up and more about Snyder's basic inability to grasp a story he was heavily inspired to use in a film.

----------


## Agent Z

> TDKR Batman did not kill, its less about fans willingness to eat it up and more about Snyder's basic inability to grasp a story he was heavily inspired to use in a film.


Miller didn't seem to think Snyder didn't grasp the story.

----------


## Confuzzled

> TDKR Batman did not kill, its less about fans willingness to eat it up and more about Snyder's basic inability to grasp a story he was heavily inspired to use in a film.


Snyder is allowed to make his own changes to a story he was inspired by. Hence "inspiration", not literal translation.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Miller didn't seem to think Snyder didn't grasp the story.


He didnt shower it with glowing praises either despite all the worshiping Snyder did. He was pretty meh about it actually, which is ok by me but Miller wrote his story. Snyder failed to understand said story, what Miller or even God think doesn't change that.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Snyder is allowed to make his own changes to a story he was inspired by. Hence "inspiration", not literal translation.


He didn't make changes, he flatout misunderstood and misinterpreted the source material he himself worships. Those are 2 different things, dont mistake artistic liberty for bad writing and bad comprehension.

----------


## Carabas

> He didn't make changes, he flatout misunderstood and misinterpreted the source material he himself worships. Those are 2 different things, dont mistake artistic liberty for bad writing and bad comprehension.


It's like Snyder's Watchmen all over again.

----------


## Agent Z

> He didnt shower it with glowing praises either despite all the worshiping Snyder did. He was pretty meh about it actually, which is ok by me but Miller wrote his story. Snyder failed to understand said story, what Miller or even God think doesn't change that.


Miller is the one who wrote the story and he didn't have an issue with Snyder's interpretation of it.

And if Miller didn't want people "misinterpreting his work" maybe he shouldn't have stuff like this in



Even if you want to claim Snyder misunderstood it, actually pointing out that people are dying when Bruce shoots them is a hell lot less insulting to the audience's intelligence than "rubber bullets, really".

----------


## Barbatos666

> Miller is the one who wrote the story and he didn't have an issue with Snyder's interpretation of it.
> 
> And if Miller didn't want people "misinterpreting his work" maybe he shouldn't have stuff like this in
> 
> 
> 
> Even if you want to claim Snyder misunderstood it, actually pointing out that people are dying when Bruce shoots them is a hell lot less insulting to the audience's intelligence than "rubber bullets, really".


I'll repeat,Snyder worships that story, so why are you attacking Miller's story when Snyder loves it and yet simultaneously defending Snyder? this isn't about Miller's TDKR its about Snyder's lack of comprehension and his poor story telling. He took a story, claims to love it, tries to use it as an inspiration for his own film but fails to get it. The realism of Miller's TDKR was never the subject of any debate.
After all TDKR has cemented its reputation among the top comic stories, BvS has nowhere near the same impact on CBMs much less the film industry.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> TDKR Batman did not kill, its less about fans willingness to eat it up and more about Snyder's basic inability to grasp a story he was heavily inspired to use in a film.





> Miller is the one who wrote the story and he didn't have an issue with Snyder's interpretation of it.
> 
> And if Miller didn't want people "misinterpreting his work" maybe he shouldn't have stuff like this in
> 
> 
> 
> Even if you want to claim Snyder misunderstood it, actually pointing out that people are dying when Bruce shoots them is a hell lot less insulting to the audience's intelligence than "rubber bullets, really".


If I recall, doesn't the next panel show a Mutant with a blood splatter on the wall behind him? Looks pretty dead to me.

----------


## Jokerz79

Miller wrote a psychopath and Snyder did psychopath lite I see no issue with that the problem is Snyder never gets the underlining messages of the stories he's interpreting on screen. Going back and starting with Dawn of the Dead he made a good film and it was smart to do a reimagining over a remake he took the situation and did his own thing and that's the smart way to retell a story/film. But he also missed all the social commentary Romero had in the film and that's the connective tissue of Snyder films taking great source materials and using them to make good films but never equal to the original telling of the story/film.

----------


## Punisher007

Essentially Snyder loves the pretty visuals and basic moments of said stories.  But he completely misses the context and deeper themes of said stories.  It's the same with trying to cram _Death of Superman_ into the last 15 minutes of the film, on top of everything else.  It falls completely flat.

----------


## Frontier

> If I recall, doesn't the next panel show a Mutant with a blood splatter on the wall behind him? Looks pretty dead to me.


I don't remember that in the book but in the animated movie it was pretty clear Batman didn't kill the Mutant.

----------


## Styles

> If I recall, doesn't the next panel show a Mutant with a blood splatter on the wall behind him? Looks pretty dead to me.


Yup, you're right it does. 




> I don't remember that in the book but in the animated movie it was pretty clear Batman didn't kill the Mutant.


It was in the comic; here's the next panel.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It was in the comic; here's the next panel.

----------


## Confuzzled

> He didn't make changes, he flatout misunderstood and misinterpreted the source material he himself worships. Those are 2 different things, dont mistake artistic liberty for bad writing and bad comprehension.


You do know that Snyder didn't _write_ BvS, right?

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> You do know that Snyder didn't _write_ BvS, right?


I just want to point out that writing a script and directing a movie on that script are not completely different process where there can be conflicts of ideas. This is a common misconception, and it happens a lot when people want to defend a director they like.

Being a director practically means you're in charge of everything. All of your ideas are presented in the film. Other people help you develop them, but they are still your ideas. Everything from the costumes, art direction, cinematography, music, VFX, and the script is your idea. These are the kind of ideas a director brings for his or her pitch to the studio. 

Zack Snyder not writing BvS is not an excuse to absolve him of anything. Pretty much everything that happens in the story is his idea. A scriptwriter just translates those ideas into the form of a script. A good director should be able to point out problems or things he or she doesn't like in a script. If Zack Snyder did not object to anything the script shows, then he had no problem with it.

----------


## Punisher007

> 


Yep, he knows visuals.  Unfortunately, he struggles with the greater context.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Yep, he knows visuals.  Unfortunately, he struggles with the greater context.


But he still wants to try the "hard approach" which he could not handle.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I just want to point out that writing a script and directing a movie on that script are not completely different process where there can be conflicts of ideas. This is a common misconception, and it happens a lot when people want to defend a director they like.
> 
> Being a director practically means you're in charge of everything. All of your ideas are presented in the film. Other people help you develop them, but they are still your ideas. Everything from the costumes, art direction, cinematography, music, VFX, and the script is your idea. These are the kind of ideas a director brings for his or her pitch to the studio. 
> 
> Zack Snyder not writing BvS is not an excuse to absolve him of anything. Pretty much everything that happens in the story is his idea. A scriptwriter just translates those ideas into the form of a script. A good director should be able to point out problems or things he or she doesn't like in a script. If Zack Snyder did not object to anything the script shows, then he had no problem with it.


BVS itself is a HUGE mistake, no matter who writes it, it's gonna fail.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Yup, you're right it does. 
> 
> 
> 
> It was in the comic; here's the next panel.


I like how this was ignored in the conversation.

----------


## Rogue Star

I don't understand why WB does this if their TV and Film universes are supposed to be separate.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I don't understand why WB does this if their TV and Film universes are supposed to be separate.


Because both will have more freedom to handle their own stuff.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Because both will have more freedom to handle their own stuff.


Which is idiocy of the highest order. I have not seen Deathstroke in Arrow but i have heard a lot of praise. In the name of creative freedom they are taking away something which is good.

Apparently they have the creative freedom clause for all characters except for Superman whom they brought to be Supergirl's bi**h. And Flash is fine. So, why do this?  Pardon my language but there is no appropriate word to say about what they did to Superman in that last episode of Supergirl. My frustration increases with time.

Creative freedom was done by keeping the universes separate. I can see the logic. And its a good one. But i see no logic in restricting characters when Flash has a show and he is going to be in Flashpoint. What's the point?

----------


## Barbatos666

I love Manu Bennet's Slade but my only disappointment here is that he wont get his own show and that too was never really in the cards. No complaints about him no longer being in the flarrowverse, not like Arrow is utilizing its existing resources properly. Its an Olcity show now.

----------


## Barbatos666

> You do know that Snyder didn't _write_ BvS, right?


It presented his vision and in his vision 90% of Batman action involves guns and bullets which is about as unBatman as you can get. Its not just failing to get the character but it also shows a lack of imagination and laziness. The Netflix Punisher show didn't have him just shooting people all the time every time there was an action sequence. Note every single time Snyder's Batman was fighting he'd use guns one way or the other and even then not in particularity interesting ways. Its just your random budda,budda,budda, guy dies moving on.

----------


## Stanlos

> I don't understand why WB does this if their TV and Film universes are supposed to be separate.


I don't understand why they do it when their TV verse is doing so much better in nearly every regard not related to budget.  CRISIS ON EARTH X was a better experience than JUSTICE LEAGUE for me.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Embargos are so damn stupid.

----------


## Confuzzled

This whole WB embargo situation has always been silly. One of the biggest reason Batman and his villains blew up in the 90's was because they featured in two major coexisting adaptations at the time: BTAS/TNBA and the Burton/Schumacher films. Movie goers, especially children, want to see more of the cool characters they saw on film, and cartoons and live action shows can perfectly capitalize on that need.

Marvel gets this. It's a different matter that their "movie inspired" cartoons are no good though.

----------


## Agent Z

> It presented his vision and in his vision 90% of Batman action involves guns and bullets which is about as unBatman as you can get. Its not just failing to get the character but it also shows a lack of imagination and laziness. The Netflix Punisher show didn't have him just shooting people all the time every time there was an action sequence. Note every single time Snyder's Batman was fighting he'd use guns one way or the other and even then not in particularity interesting ways. Its just your random budda,budda,budda, guy dies moving on.


The number of times Frank doesn't use guns in an action sequence in Punisher can be counted on one hand. And let's not act as if Snyder is the first person to have Bruce use guns on film.

----------


## Barbatos666

> The number of times Frank doesn't use guns in an action sequence in Punisher can be counted on one hand. And let's not act as if Snyder is the first person to have Bruce use guns on film.


I never did say Snyder was the first person to have Batman use guns or kill though. But Burton, Nolan etc did a lot of other things with Batman that covers up the times they stretched their liberties. Snyder's Batman just shoots people in virtually every scene he's in. Compare Nolan's and Burtons first time using the Batmobile to Snyder's. They actually delivered variety while Snyder's Batman just shoots the mercs. Its not just failing to get the character its just outright boring. BVS and JL have the most boring action sequences in big budget films. I wanna see Batman do Batman stuff, not sit in a cockpit and press a button that goes budda, budda.

Punisher despite featuring an actual gun wielder was far more sophisticated, cleverer and had actual variety even though Frank is a far more limited character especially in terms of action next to Batman. Bernthal didn't just pull out an AK-47 and go bam bam bam on every enemy.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I never did say Snyder was the first person to have Batman use guns or kill though. But Burton, Nolan etc did a lot of other things with Batman that covers up the times they stretched their liberties.


Burton and Nolan actually had the benefit of developing and directing Batman solo films, while Snyder had to make do stuffing Bruce in movies featuring Clark and Diana or the entire Justice League. And Burton still faced the "Didn't develop Batman enough/Had villains overshadow Batman" criticisms. Joker and Bane received most of the attention in their respective Nolan films too.




> Snyder's Batman just shoots people in virtually every scene he's in.


There's exaggeration and then there's straight up not really having watched the movies.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Burton and Nolan actually had the benefit of developing and directing Batman solo films, while Snyder had to make do stuffing Bruce in movies featuring Clark and Diana or the entire Justice League. And Burton still faced the "Didn't develop Batman enough/Had villains overshadow Batman" criticisms. Joker and Bane received most of the attention in their respective Nolan films too.
> 
> 
> 
> There's exaggeration and then there's straight up not really having watched the movies.


Lol Ive been reading the comments and wonder if its the same BVS or a BVS shoot em up edition, besides the final fight with Doomsday and Batmobile gun, Batman doesnt use guns. The problem with Snyders Batman was the brutal killing in the chase scene and the warehouse fight(as cool as it was.

----------


## Agent Z

> I never did say Snyder was the first person to have Batman use guns or kill though. But Burton, Nolan etc did a lot of other things with Batman that covers up the times they stretched their liberties. Snyder's Batman just shoots people in virtually every scene he's in. Compare Nolan's and Burtons first time using the Batmobile to Snyder's. They actually delivered variety while Snyder's Batman just shoots the mercs. Its not just failing to get the character its just outright boring. BVS and JL have the most boring action sequences in big budget films. I wanna see Batman do Batman stuff, not sit in a cockpit and press a button that goes budda, budda.
> 
> Punisher despite featuring an actual gun wielder was far more sophisticated, cleverer and had actual variety even though Frank is a far more limited character especially in terms of action next to Batman. Bernthal didn't just pull out an AK-47 and go bam bam bam on every enemy.


Which Punisher series did you watch?

----------


## Jokerz79

What bothered me more than Batman killing in the DCEU was the selectedness of it. He kills grunts and thugs even branding people to be killed in prison yet he allows his rogues gallery to live? Say what you will about Burton and his Batman killing but Penguin and Joker were dead at the end of those films. One of the reasons heroes don't kill in comics is to preserve the rogues gallery now films get more leeway to bend those rules due to the fact most villains will only appear in one film while moving on to others for other films.

----------


## Agent Z

> What bothered me more than Batman killing in the DCEU was the selectedness of it. He kills grunts and thugs even branding people to be killed in prison yet he allows his rogues gallery to live? Say what you will about Burton and his Batman killing but Penguin and Joker were dead at the end of those films. One of the reasons heroes don't kill in comics is to preserve the rogues gallery now films get more leeway to bend those rules due to the fact most villains will only appear in one film while moving on to others for other films.


For the thousandth time, Bruce killing people is a recent development in this universe not something he's done his entire career. He also did not know the brand was killing people in prison until much later. And he stopped doing that at the end of the movie. In BvS his rogues gallery does not appear and are either in prison or in hiding. There is a very obvious reason as to why these guys are alive.

----------


## Frontier

> *What bothered me more than Batman killing in the DCEU was the selectedness of it. He kills grunts and thugs even branding people to be killed in prison yet he allows his rogues gallery to live?* Say what you will about Burton and his Batman killing but Penguin and Joker were dead at the end of those films. One of the reasons heroes don't kill in comics is to preserve the rogues gallery now films get more leeway to bend those rules due to the fact most villains will only appear in one film while moving on to others for other films.


This reminds me of how Oliver on _Arrow_, back before he had a no-kill rule, would kill mooks and guards left and right but would usually leave the person he was actually after alive.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Burton and Nolan actually had the benefit of developing and directing Batman solo films, while Snyder had to make do stuffing Bruce in movies featuring Clark and Diana or the entire Justice League. And Burton still faced the "Didn't develop Batman enough/Had villains overshadow Batman" criticisms. Joker and Bane received most of the attention in their respective Nolan films too.
> 
> 
> 
> There's exaggeration and then there's straight up not really having watched the movies.


It was Snyder's idea to stuff Batman in these films. He even wanted to do it as early as MOS but Nolan stopped him. Besides doesn't this prove my point?

He used guns in the Knightmare scene
He used guns during the Batmobile chase
He used guns just before the warehouse fight
He concluded the said fight by using a gun
He used guns against Doomsday.
He used rounds against Superman and a spear so there was a muderous intent.

Only the scene with the trafficker and Luthor didn't feature guns and neither were action sequences.

Over to JL
He used the Nightcrawlers guns against Steppenwolf and the Parademons
He used the guns against the Parademons during the final fight. Just before that he was shooting missiles from the flying fox. 
The only time he acted like Batman was during the opening Whedon directed sequence. I actually wouldn't mind them in isolation but action wise this is the ONLY thing DCEU seems capable of doing and characterwise he's a murderer.
If your Batman's action involves gun battles and his motivation in one the films is to murder someone during which he actually does murder people then its time to admit that Snyder failed. Nolan and Burton are constantly brought up to excuse Snyder but their Batmens character didn't revolve around planning to murder someone from the beginning to end nor did almost all their action sequenes amount to Batman shooting people.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Which Punisher series did you watch?


The one with Jon Berthal, its a great show and I'd take it over DCEU and Flarrowverse and 90% of MCU.

----------


## Punisher007

> I never did say Snyder was the first person to have Batman use guns or kill though. But Burton, Nolan etc did a lot of other things with Batman that covers up the times they stretched their liberties. Snyder's Batman just shoots people in virtually every scene he's in. Compare Nolan's and Burtons first time using the Batmobile to Snyder's. They actually delivered variety while Snyder's Batman just shoots the mercs. Its not just failing to get the character its just outright boring. BVS and JL have the most boring action sequences in big budget films. I wanna see Batman do Batman stuff, not sit in a cockpit and press a button that goes budda, budda.
> 
> Punisher despite featuring an actual gun wielder was far more sophisticated, cleverer and had actual variety even though Frank is a far more limited character especially in terms of action next to Batman. Bernthal didn't just pull out an AK-47 and go bam bam bam on every enemy.


Also using Burton as a defense for Snyder fails for me because I HATED when Burton did that as well (make Batman a sociopathic mass-murderer who intentionally guns down/kills his enemies without remorse).

----------


## Punisher007

> Burton and Nolan actually had the benefit of developing and directing Batman solo films, while Snyder had to make do stuffing Bruce in movies featuring Clark and Diana or the entire Justice League. And Burton still faced the "Didn't develop Batman enough/Had villains overshadow Batman" criticisms. *Joker and Bane received most of the attention in their respective Nolan films too.
> *
> 
> 
> There's exaggeration and then there's straight up not really having watched the movies.


No, they didn't.  This is a fallacy that needs to go away already.  Freaking Gordon received more attention than they did for goodness sake.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Wait a sec apparently JL leaked online? Oh boy that sounds like sweet karma!

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Batman's killing people in BvS is a bold and risque creative choice that could've worked if the movie calls out Batman on it more explicitly.  Have   Batman be this  brutal, murderous  crime-fighter be the source of Superman's enmity towards Batman.   Superman is traumatized after killing Zod which causes him to have a heightened sense of sacredness for all life and is constantly haunted with nightmares of Zod,  and use that to thematically highlight that Superman is the hero Batman wanted to be if he didn't fall to the darkness, while Batman to Superman is the man that he could be if he fell to the  darkness.  Have  the sanctity of life be the crux of the Batman and Superman conflict and have Lex  through his machinations exacerbate   the problem.   

I'm sure people who love BvS wouldn't like my take but that would be  a lot more interesting to me than what we ultimately ended up getting.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Which is idiocy of the highest order. I have not seen Deathstroke in Arrow but i have heard a lot of praise. In the name of creative freedom they are taking away something which is good.


Deathstroke was great on Arrow.  The DCEU will be lucky if they can come up with anything half as good.  I feel in the DCEU that Deathstroke is just going to be a generic mustache twirling villain with 
no real character development. Just somebody for the heroes to slap around, like most the other DCEU villains such as Doomsday, Steppenwolf, and Ares.




> Apparently they have the creative freedom clause for all characters except for Superman whom they brought to be Supergirl's bi**h. And Flash is fine. So, why do this?  Pardon my language but there is no appropriate word to say about what they did to Superman in that last episode of Supergirl. My frustration increases with time.



They did this to establish that Supergirl is Earth's mightiest hero.  That only Supergirl can save the world. And to try to put a rest to people asking for Superman to swoop in to save the day.
It's been pretty much established in Supergirl lore that Supergirl saved the world twice already, first from the Kryptonians, and then from the Daxamites, while Superman was useless both times.
So if Supergirl can't handle the threat, what good would Superman be?  I kind of think this may be the last we see of Superman for a long time, if at all. He hardly gets mentioned in the show this 
season. The last time I can recall was some kids were making fun of Superman for wearing his underwear outside his pants.

----------


## Agent Z

> Batman's killing people in BvS is a bold and risque creative choice that could've worked if the movie calls out Batman on it more explicitly.  Have   Batman be this  brutal, murderous  crime-fighter be the source of Superman's enmity towards Batman.   Superman is traumatized after killing Zod which causes him to have a heightened sense of sacredness for all life and is constantly haunted with nightmares of Zod,  and use that to thematically highlight that Superman is the hero Batman wanted to be if he didn't fall to the darkness, while Batman to Superman is the man that he could be if he fell to the  darkness.  Have  the sanctity of life be the crux of the Batman and Superman conflict and have Lex  through his machinations exacerbate   the problem.   
> 
> I'm sure people who love BvS wouldn't like my take but that would be  a lot more interesting to me than what we ultimately ended up getting.


It's flat out stated that Batman killing is why Superman is out to get him. All the things you've asked for except for the Zod nightmare is there. 

Hell, this is the only Batman movie to call out Batman killing unlike the others that just ignore it and then have him hypocritically chastise others who do kill.

Apparently, if people wouldn't have liked your version it's because Batman killing people (and the movie actually calling this out) is kind of a no-no among fans.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> What bothered me more than Batman killing in the DCEU was the selectedness of it. He kills grunts and thugs even branding people to be killed in prison yet he allows his rogues gallery to live? Say what you will about Burton and his Batman killing but Penguin and Joker were dead at the end of those films. One of the reasons heroes don't kill in comics is to preserve the rogues gallery now films get more leeway to bend those rules due to the fact most villains will only appear in one film while moving on to others for other films.


I hate BvS but I will note that the brand getting people killed was a subplot that was designed by Lex to create an antagonism between Batman and Superman
That subplot was cut from the theatrical release so it looks like Batman is sentencing people to die but still yeah Batman can be brutal and not care about criminals dying up to a point but having him kill so much makes you question how the Joker, Harley Quinn, Deadshot, etc are not just dead

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Wait a sec apparently JL leaked online? Oh boy that sounds like sweet karma!


The fan edits are coming, the fan edits are coming!

----------


## Lightning Rider

He’s manalaughtering in the heat of battle, not MURDERING people in cold blood. How is this still a debate.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> It's flat out stated that Batman killing is why Superman is out to get him. All the things you've asked for except for the Zod nightmare is there. 
> 
> Hell, this is the only Batman movie to call out Batman killing unlike the others that just ignore it and then have him hypocritically chastise others who do kill.


Not really, Supes seems to show more  disdain for  Batman's general draconian methodology with dealing with criminals(i.e, the branding of criminals) than he does with Batman  taking life.  The film sort of says that Batman inadvertently kills criminals since they say him leaving the Batman brand  warrants criminals  being killed in prison but  the movie never explores that angle enough to make it a big aspect of the Batman and Superman's antagonism toward to each other.

----------


## Frontier

I'm just wondering how many people he's killed with the Batmobile because it almost looks like he can't take that thing out without their being collateral damage  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Agent Z

> Not really, *Supes seems to show more  disdain for  Batman's general draconian methodology with dealing with criminals(i.e, the branding of criminals) than he does with Batman  taking life.*  The film sort of says that Batman inadvertently kills criminals since they say him leaving the Batman brand  warrants criminals being killed but  the movie never explores angle enough to make it a big aspect of the Batman and Superman conflict.


Respecting the sanctity of life is not just being mad when people die. It's also being against trampling of human rights like what Bruce was doing with the brand which is a thousand times worst that Clark killing Zod to stop his rampage. Which is why the Zod nightmares wouldn't work; because it is a false equivalency. Superman killed Zod to stop a genocidal mad man from wiping out another planet and it was not Clark who instigated the conflict. More importantly, Clark worked with the authorities not against them. All of this is contrast to Bruce who's going Jack Bauer on low income criminals and getting away with it because the media barely acknowledges it.

That ultimately is the line that Bruce is crossing in BvS; not simply taking a life but doing so premeditated as opposed as a last resort.

Wonder Woman has way more respect for the sanctity of life than either Batman or Superman in the comics because she knows when to use lethal force and that the life of a murderer is not of the same worth as that of their victims. That is when she's not written by Frank Miller, Geoff Johns or the Injustice writers.

----------


## Jokerz79

> For the thousandth time, Bruce killing people is a recent development in this universe not something he's done his entire career. He also did not know the brand was killing people in prison until much later. And he stopped doing that at the end of the movie. In BvS his rogues gallery does not appear and are either in prison or in hiding. There is a very obvious reason as to why these guys are alive.


Sorry that doesn't cut it if Joker killed Robin and Batman is willing to kill then no he shouldn't be alive no matter where he is and we know he's not in prison or Arkham given Suicide Squad. This Bruce should had been hunting him down instead of worrying about Superman but then again this Batman was too keen on logic for being the "World's Greatest Detective".

----------


## Jokerz79

> I hate BvS but I will note that the brand getting people killed was a subplot that was designed by Lex to create an antagonism between Batman and Superman
> That subplot was cut from the theatrical release so it looks like Batman is sentencing people to die but still yeah Batman can be brutal and not care about criminals dying up to a point but having him kill so much makes you question how the Joker, Harley Quinn, Deadshot, etc are not just dead


I saw the ultimate cut and I get Lex was behind the prison murders but still it's public knowledge the brand gets people killed so if he cared he'd stop.

----------


## TheSupernaut

> I saw the ultimate cut and I get Lex was behind the prison murders but still it's public knowledge the brand gets people killed so if he cared he'd stop.


I think the point was that he didn't care. Batman had been so jaded up to that point he stopped caring.

----------


## Agent Z

> Sorry that doesn't cut it if Joker killed Robin and Batman is willing to kill then no he shouldn't be alive no matter where he is and we know he's not in prison or Arkham given Suicide Squad. This Bruce should had been hunting him down instead of worrying about Superman but then again this Batman was too keen on logic for being the "World's Greatest Detective".


If he doesn't know where the Joker is it wouldn't matter. He can't kill someone if he can't find them and the Joker either wasn't active or was keeping his activities below the radar. More importantly, the Joker was not the trigger for him becoming Batman again.

And Bruce's reputation as the "World's Greatest Detective" has always been massively overblown by his fans. More often than not, he's dealing with attention starved showboaters who in many cases actually want to be caught or don't even care. You don't need a detective to recognize one of the Joker's crimes. Little actual detective work is rarely done in Batman stories.

----------


## Agent Z

> I saw the ultimate cut and I get Lex was behind the prison murders but still it's public knowledge the brand gets people killed so if he cared he'd stop.


He didn't care about criminals dying. That was the point.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Respecting the sanctity of life is not just being mad when people die. It's also being against trampling of human rights like what Bruce was doing with the brand which is a thousand times worst that Clark killing Zod to stop his rampage. Which is why the Zod nightmares wouldn't work; because it is a false equivalency. Superman killed Zod to stop a genocidal mad man from wiping out another planet and it was not Clark who instigated the conflict. More importantly, Clark worked with the authorities not against them. All of this is contrast to Bruce who's going Jack Bauer on low income criminals and getting away with it because the media barely acknowledges it.
> .


I contend that the   trauma from killing Zod would strengthen Supes aversion to killing; giving the audience a  window into Supes psyche and give Superman   an impetus for his distaste for Batman.  I give you that Superman killing Zod and Batman killing are not the same thing but it would be interesting how that difference would inform Superman's adversarial rivalry "I was forced to kill  a person that I didn't want to but here comes this other guy who kills all willy nilly"--I think Superman would detest that, especially since it's a guy doing that on a constant  and negligible basis in comparison to him who did it unwillingly once. Superman would have those Zod nightmares but it's not really in relation to Batman killing but in relation to his own personal guilt in killing  Zod prior that's carried over from MOS  and then  he reads/watches reports of Bat's killing criminals  prompting a visceral disgust  in him partially because the  Zod trauma has augmented his aversion to killing.  

My suggestion of Zod nightmares is really to illustrate Supes stronger sensitivity to taking life post-MOS and also convey  his sense of alienation following the growing public opposition to him.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

Never mind

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> And Bruce's reputation as the "World's Greatest Detective" has always been massively overblown by his fans. More often than not, he's dealing with attention starved showboaters who in many cases actually want to be caught or don't even care. You don't need a detective to recognize one of the Joker's crimes. Little actual detective work is rarely done in Batman stories.

----------


## Jokerz79

> He didn't care about criminals dying. That was the point.


Speaking of the World's Great Detective I'm not even close to anything like that but guess what I even I figured that out. It's part of my issues with the DCEU Batman not his willingness to kill because I'm good with that in context Burton's Batman killed and I liked him. Would I ever want comic Batman to kill? No but for films I can accept different interpretations but when that interpretation is acting like a an idiot with killing the help but allowing the bosses to live yeah I have an issue sorry.

----------


## Triple J

> Speaking of the World's Great Detective I'm not even close to anything like that but guess what I even I figured that out. It's part of my issues with the DCEU Batman not his willingness to kill because I'm good with that in context Burton's Batman killed and I liked him. Would I ever want comic Batman to kill? No but for films I can accept different interpretations but when that interpretation is acting like a an idiot with killing the help but allowing the bosses to live yeah I have an issue sorry.


That's fine, but as someone else mentioned the film states that this is a recent development in Bruce's life as Batman (Alfred mentioning it to Bruce; another guy mentioning it to Clark while he was investigating Nairomi witness). We don't see any of Bruce's rogues gallery in the film..so we don't exactly know how he would deal with them in such a situation.

----------


## Agent Z

> It was Snyder's idea to stuff Batman in these films. He even wanted to do it as early as MOS but Nolan stopped him. Besides doesn't this prove my point?
> 
> He used guns in the Knightmare scene
> He used guns during the Batmobile chase
> He used guns just before the warehouse fight
> He concluded the said fight by using a gun
> He used guns against Doomsday.
> He used rounds against Superman and a spear so there was a muderous intent.
> 
> ...


Actually, no, using Batman was not Synder's idea, at least not in this capacity.

Also, look through the Punisher's action sequences and you'll see he uses guns to the same extent as DCEU Batman.

People bring up Nolan and Burton because their Batmen killed people despite claiming not to. The only difference between their Batmen and Snyder's is Snyder actually addressed it. I don't care what else Nolan and Burton did with Batman (which for Burton was jack squat) if you're going to rip Snyder apart for his Batman being a killer then those two deserve the same.

And I find it laughable you're whining about him killing Parademons given fans insist those things don't even count as alive. The only time Batman fans give a damn is when the people he kills look human. And what exactly did you expect him to use on the Parademons any way? Water balloons? It's an invasion. An act of war.

----------


## Agent Z

> The one with Jon Berthal, its a great show and I'd take it over DCEU and Flarrowverse and 90% of MCU.


That's nice but we're not discussing your preferences for superhero adaptations here. If you want to talk about how much you like that show, I'm sure there's a thread for that.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Actually, no, using Batman was not Synder's idea, at least not in this capacity.
> 
> Also, look through the Punisher's action sequences and you'll see he uses guns to the same extent as DCEU Batman.
> 
> People bring up Nolan and Burton because their Batmen killed people despite claiming not to. The only difference between their Batmen and Snyder's is Snyder actually addressed it. I don't care what else Nolan and Burton did with Batman (which for Burton was jack squat) if you're going to rip Snyder apart for his Batman being a killer then those two deserve the same.
> 
> And I find it laughable you're whining about him killing Parademons given fans insist those things don't even count as alive. The only time Batman fans give a damn is when the people he kills look human. And what exactly did you expect him to use on the Parademons any way? Water balloons? It's an invasion. An act of war.


Yes it was, Snyder is repeat offender here. His Batman has been shown using guns more than all other film versions put together.

Punisher unlike Batman is a gun based character but even the guns battles in Punisher are much better. DC Batman just mows down fodder in a video game style. Its boring, lazy and shows zero effort. The Suicide Squad displayed cool gunwork from Lawton, that's another example. Even if I begrudgingly accept guns I dont accept the poor combat that went with them.

I also mentioned Burton and Nolan delivering in a multitude of other areas. Where exactly did Snyder deliver? The performances, story telling, score, characterization in the Burton and Nolan films are on a completely different level. Did they also do questionable stuff? Absolutely, no denial from me there but the good vastly outweighs the bad. Theeir films were well crafted, enjoyable, structured, better paced and so on. BvS was a horridly boring slog with mediocre performances at best, one good action scene, incoherent story, questionable storytelling but trying to pass itself as mature because its characters have grim faces and a darker pallete.

There were hundreds of things he could have used on Parademons. Bat robots, traps, sonics based weapons,tazer weapons, some virus that scrambled their commands etc. He employed automatic gunfire because thats totally not being lazy and its totally the Batman way.

The amount of effort put in to DCEU Batman starts and ends with his costume and vehicles. So killing or not I refuse to give Snyder points for anything beyond what I mentioned.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yes it was, Snyder is repeat offender here. His Batman has been shown using guns more than all other film versions put together.
> 
> Punisher unlike Batman is a gun based character but even the guns battles in Punisher are much better. DC Batman just mows down fodder in a video game style. Its boring, lazy and shows zero effort. The Suicide Squad displayed cool gunwork from Lawton, that's another example. Even if I begrudgingly accept guns I dont accept the poor combat that went with them.
> 
> I also mentioned Burton and Nolan delivering in a multitude of other areas. Where exactly did Snyder deliver? The performances, story telling, score, characterization in the Burton and Nolan films are on a completely different level. Did they also do questionable stuff? Absolutely, no denial from me there but the good vastly outweighs the bad. Theeir films were well crafted, enjoyable, structured, better paced and so on. BvS was a horridly boring slog with mediocre performances at best, one good action scene, incoherent story, questionable storytelling but trying to pass itself as mature because its characters have grim faces and a darker pallete.
> 
> There were hundreds of things he could have used on Parademons. Bat robots, traps, sonics based weapons,tazer weapons, some virus that scrambled their commands etc. He employed automatic gunfire because thats totally not being lazy and its totally the Batman way.
> 
> The amount of effort put in to DCEU Batman starts and ends with his costume and vehicles. So killing or not I refuse to give Snyder points for anything beyond what I mentioned.


You know you can go on about how much Snyder used guns in comparison to others but it doesn't change that Killing and using guns in any capacity has been done with Batman in film before. But hey if you want to pretend a guy who tosses knives and drag grenades everywhere isn't going to go for lethal options be my guest.


Affleck and Gadot's performances were praised and the score as well. 



You seriously ought to take another look at that show if you think there is any difference. 

I'm so sorry Snyder didn't decide to turn the film into an episode of Batman 66 so you could get Batgod.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Underrated scene. I love Alfred line at the end and another stupid thing they decided to cut from the theatrical.

----------


## Barbatos666

> You know you can go on about how much Snyder used guns in comparison to others but it doesn't change that Killing and using guns in any capacity has been done with Batman in film before. But hey if you want to pretend a guy who tosses knives and drag grenades everywhere isn't going to go for lethal options be my guest.
> 
> 
> Affleck and Gadot's performances were praised and the score as well. 
> 
> 
> 
> You seriously ought to take another look at that show if you think there is any difference. 
> 
> I'm so sorry Snyder didn't decide to turn the film into an episode of Batman 66 so you could get Batgod.


It hasn't been done to the extent that Batman is transformed in to not Batman.  Batman's weapons are designed to not kill and he's shown to be so adept at their use that we're not supposed to question deaths. You can call BS on that but its the foundation on which this lore is built on. No different than Clark's goofy disguise or Arkham's revolving door. If you start peeling these things like Snyder rather stupidly seems intent on doing then you're left with something else. 

Affleck was praised in BVS initially because he was better than boring Cavill and the rubbish Lex.  With the hype over now he got nothing to show in his JL performance. These performances are bottom tier, they get no love from the critics or even fan awards. In major polls Affleck gets trounced by Bale, Keaton and West. He hasn't won any geek awards either which those Marvel heroes eat up every year. Gadot wasn't praised for any acting in BVS. Wonder Woman character was praised for lifting a boring movie near the end.

I rewatched Punisher last weekend.

Instead he came up with a rubbish CGI villain. I have no idea where you assumed I wanted Adam West or Batgod. Even Bale Batman had that sonar, bat calling device, EMP and more. That Batman is far more grounded than Snyder's ever will be. Its called putting some actual effort in to it. Homecoming Spidey used nifty gadgets too, as is Black Panther just from the trailers. You dont see Marvel giving them guns cause they have an aversion to Godliness. This is a lame excuse, maybe Wonder Woman should be depowered and given guns too. Maybe Supes should drive a tank, I mean who wants to see them doing what they are known for? Make them less Godly lol.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> You know you can go on about how much Snyder used guns in comparison to others but it doesn't change that Killing and using guns in any capacity has been done with Batman in film before. But hey if you want to pretend a guy who tosses knives and drag grenades everywhere isn't going to go for lethal options be my guest.
> 
> 
> Affleck and Gadot's performances were praised and the score as well. 
> 
> 
> 
> You seriously ought to take another look at that show if you think there is any difference. 
> 
> I'm so sorry Snyder didn't decide to turn the film into an episode of Batman 66 so you could get Batgod.


Snyder's Batman was everything he was built to be in-verse. Nolan's Batman is 100000000000000% worse has he actually had a no kill rule that he constantly broke. Snyder's Batman is not a flaw in the film, if someone has a problem it is theirs not the films. 

Side note: Nolan's Batman was boring so I don;t care if he was more "grounded" the dude was a jack ass and was all for giving Batman up after a year to be with this girlfriend but killing that's not Batman that is where we must draw the line!

----------


## Barbatos666

> Snyder's Batman was everything he was built to be in-verse. Nolan's Batman is 100000000000000% worse has he actually had a no kill rule that he constantly broke. Snyder's Batman is not a flaw in the film, if someone has a problem it is theirs not the films. 
> 
> Side note: Nolan's Batman was boring so I don;t care if he was more "grounded" the dude was a jack ass and was all for giving Batman up after a year to be with this girlfriend but killing that's not Batman that is where we must draw the line!


Nolan Batman has 2 movies at over a billion dollars each. TDK is regarded as the greatest CBM, Batman Begins made a huge impact in the film industry. They have masterful performances from the likes of Ledger and Hardy, they all are ranked top movies for their respective years on imdb. They all made it to AFI top 10 for their respective years. Ledger remains the only actor in a CBM to clinch a major Oscar. TDK forced the Academy to include more films. Bale smokes Affleck on every major poll.

BVS and JL are better compared to Schumacher's Batman.

----------


## Barbatos666

And you guys do realize that Miller Batman that Snyder worships retired too right.King's Batman is hinting towards a similar arc. He was finished after Bane was done with him.Earth-2 Batman retired. DCAU Batman retired as well. Its a legit story device in Batman lore.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Nolan Batman has 2 movies at over a billion dollars each. TDK is regarded as the greatest CBM, Batman Begins made a huge impact in the film industry. They have masterful performances from the likes of Ledger and Hardy, they all are ranked top movies for their respective years on imdb. They all made it to AFI top 10 for their respective years. Ledger remains the only actor in a CBM to clinch a major Oscar. TDK forced the Academy to include more films. Bale smokes Affleck on every major poll.
> 
> BVS and JL are better compared to Schumacher's Batman.


Actually since BVS Affleck has been touted as better Batman and Bruce Wayne than Bale, what poll btw cause Bale has never been said to be the best even in his time because Keaton Batman was better than his. Also BO numbers have no bearing on the quality of the film, FF now also have two films over the billion dollar mark, and I cant help but thing that both film franchise got that hype for people to see it in the same way. Death of major actor in the show.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Actually since BVS Affleck has been touted as better Batman and Bruce Wayne than Bale, what poll btw cause Bale has never been said to be the best even in his time because Keaton Batman was better than his. Also BO numbers have no bearing on the quality of the film, FF now also have two films over the billion dollar mark, and I cant help but thing that both film franchise got that hype for people to see it in the same way. Death of major actor in the show.


Buzzfeed, Variety etc. Virtually every ranking and poll has Bale at the top. Affleck's newness advantage isn't even enough. Affleck's Batman will be rejected by pop culture given enough time. Just watch, he's just dark George Clooney Batman.

You missed out all those other accolades I listed, nice strawman. BVS and JL are virtual flops, barely making a profit isn't a barometer of quality either. 

Yeah cause if God forbid Affleck( or any other person in the cast) died people would rush for repeats of JL or BVS. Deaths only account for the first viewing, everything else is down to repeat viewing which in turn are guaranteed by fans enjoyment. Rises and the last FF also made over a billion without any deaths.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Buzzfeed, Variety etc. Virtually every ranking and poll has Bale at the top. Affleck's newness advantage isn't even enough. Affleck's Batman will be rejected by pop culture given enough time. Just watch, he's just dark George Clooney Batman.
> 
> You missed out all those other accolades I listed, nice strawman. BVS and JL are virtual flops, barely making a profit isn't a barometer of quality either. 
> 
> Yeah cause if God forbid Affleck( or any other person in the cast) died people would rush for repeats of JL or BVS. Deaths only account for the first viewing, everything else is down to repeat viewing which in turn are guaranteed by fans enjoyment. Rises and the last FF also made over a billion without any deaths.


Buzzfeed lol good job did they steal that data from Twitter as they usual do, you may as well cite Newsarama.

Rise and FF made over a billion dollars ride off the coat tails of the previous movies and yeah accolades surprising TDK got a ton of Academy award noms and wins for Ledger....yeah Rise wasnt even nominated for anything...so whats up with that.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> That's fine, but as someone else mentioned the film states that this is a recent development in Bruce's life as Batman (Alfred mentioning it to Bruce; another guy mentioning it to Clark while he was investigating Nairomi witness). We don't see any of Bruce's rogues gallery in the film..so we don't exactly know how he would deal with them in such a situation.


Well Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Scarecrow, Two Face should all be dead by now.  Otherwise Batman is a terrible hypocrite if he is perfectly willing to mow down henchmen like targets in a shooting
gallery but lets mass murderers live on and on.  Just the fact that Joker was still alive at the end of Suicide Squad, which seems to take place in the present day, is proof of that,

----------


## Barbatos666

> Buzzfeed lol good job did they steal that data from Twitter as they usual do, you may as well cite Newsarama.
> 
> Rise and FF made over a billion dollars ride off the coat tails of the previous movies and yeah accolades surprising TDK got a ton of Academy award noms and wins for Ledger....yeah Rise wasnt even nominated for anything...so whats up with that.


I mentioned 2 sources, there are various others. What exactly is your source again?

Rises made it to AFI top 10 of 2012, it enjoys high critical scores and high fan scores. Its the top rated movie of 2012 on IMDB.  Its not as successful as TDK overall obviously but this isn't about Nolan films vs each other so this point is of no relevance.

You obviously know nothing about how films make their money. Ledgers final film didn't even go over 200 million dollars. No one is going to back to watch a film if they dont feel its worth watching. Snyder films in contrast have horrible legs.

----------


## Agent Z

> It hasn't been done to the extent that Batman is transformed in to not Batman.  Batman's weapons are designed to not kill and he's shown to be so adept at their use that we're not supposed to question deaths. You can call BS on that but its the foundation on which this lore is built on. No different than Clark's goofy disguise or Arkham's revolving door. If you start peeling these things like Snyder rather stupidly seems intent on doing then you're left with something else. 
> 
> Affleck was praised in BVS initially because he was better than boring Cavill and the rubbish Lex.  With the hype over now he got nothing to show in his JL performance. These performances are bottom tier, they get no love from the critics or even fan awards. In major polls Affleck gets trounced by Bale, Keaton and West. He hasn't won any geek awards either which those Marvel heroes eat up every year. Gadot wasn't praised for any acting in BVS. Wonder Woman character was praised for lifting a boring movie near the end.
> 
> I rewatched Punisher last weekend.
> 
> Instead he came up with a rubbish CGI villain. I have no idea where you assumed I wanted Adam West or Batgod. Even Bale Batman had that sonar, bat calling device, EMP and more. That Batman is far more grounded than Snyder's ever will be. Its called putting some actual effort in to it. Homecoming Spidey used nifty gadgets too, as is Black Panther just from the trailers. You dont see Marvel giving them guns cause they have an aversion to Godliness. This is a lame excuse, maybe Wonder Woman should be depowered and given guns too. Maybe Supes should drive a tank, I mean who wants to see them doing what they are known for? Make them less Godly lol.


You asked for Bat robots that have never been established and for him to hack parademons despite showing no sick skill before. Tell me, how is that not Batgod?

I don't even know what the hell youre babbling about with your comments on Superman or Wonder Woman. Are you on something? Or do you seriously think that because I have no issue with a regular human using guns it suddenly means I'm asking for other characters to be depowered?

Know what, forget it. These conversations are all too familiar to another poster that used to be on these boards. The longer I talk with you the more my chances of being banned or getting this thread locked or both increase. These discussions go in circles and just get more and more anal each time. I'm done.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Actually since BVS Affleck has been touted as better Batman and Bruce Wayne than Bale, what poll btw cause Bale has never been said to be the best even in his time because Keaton Batman was better than his. Also BO numbers have no bearing on the quality of the film, FF now also have two films over the billion dollar mark, and I cant help but thing that both film franchise got that hype for people to see it in the same way. Death of major actor in the show.


Affleck played a more cooler, more suave character  plus his big stature(he's 6'4, the tallest actor to ever play the role) gives his  Batman an aura of intimidation that  Bale could never quite pull off but Bale played a better character overall IMO and was in much  better movies.  But really, to me, comparing Affleck and Bale is apples and oranges because they’re  playing radically  different characters:  Nolan's Wayne is a   more heroic person who puts on a  clueless, air head playboy facade to deter suspicion of him being the grim avenger of  the night that prowls the streets fighting crime while  Affkeck is playing a more angrier, darker, broken version of Batman that doesn't even bother with the playboy facade. That type of characterization  asks for an actor to play something different from what Bale had to work with.  Different characterizations calls for vastly different performances.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Just got done watching Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice on Xmas (cuz obviously an xmas movie lol).

Great movie, dripping with so much atmosphere that sadly many current comic book flicks lack including JL. Gotta love Snyder and his imagery mirroring the opening of Bruce falling with the Metropolis Zod thing symbolizing Bruce has "fallen" again. Brilliant set pieces and great acting. My only negative is the DoJ feel like this feel would have been perfect if it was purely the BvS aspect like it was originally intended  but the DoJ I thought was weaved in pretty well considered. 

9/10.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Nolan Batman has 2 movies at over a billion dollars each. TDK is regarded as the greatest CBM, Batman Begins made a huge impact in the film industry. They have masterful performances from the likes of Ledger and Hardy, they all are ranked top movies for their respective years on imdb. They all made it to AFI top 10 for their respective years. Ledger remains the only actor in a CBM to clinch a major Oscar. TDK forced the Academy to include more films. Bale smokes Affleck on every major poll.
> 
> BVS and JL are better compared to Schumacher's Batman.


Errr what? Instead of retortong my comment you instead threw all these information. What does Hardy have to do with Bruce wanting quit Batman after a year to be with a girl? 

You like to scream killing Batman is not my Batman but Batman wanting to quit after a mere year IS NOT BATMAN.

----------


## Triple J

> Well Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Scarecrow, Two Face should all be dead by now.  Otherwise Batman is a terrible hypocrite if he is perfectly willing to mow down henchmen like targets in a shooting
> gallery but lets mass murderers live on and on.  Just the fact that Joker was still alive at the end of Suicide Squad, which seems to take place in the present day, is proof of that,


I imagine all of them were locked up in AA; he didn't go and kill them for the same reason he didn't go to a prison and kill other murderers (He was only dealing with criminals in the open anyways).

As for SS...that happens after BvS. Batman becomes more optimistic by the end of BvS.

----------


## Barbatos666

> You asked for Bat robots that have never been established and for him to hack parademons despite showing no sick skill before. Tell me, how is that not Batgod?
> 
> I don't even know what the hell youre babbling about with your comments on Superman or Wonder Woman. Are you on something? Or do you seriously think that because I have no issue with a regular human using guns it suddenly means I'm asking for other characters to be depowered?
> 
> Know what, forget it. These conversations are all too familiar to another poster that used to be on these boards. The longer I talk with you the more my chances of being banned or getting this thread locked or both increase. These discussions go in circles and just get more and more anal each time. I'm done.


You have zero understanding of the character or any basic storytelling. Constantly screaming Batgod at the idea of using basic gadgets that define Batman instead of freaking machine guns amply demonstrates that. I gave you examples of the gadgets Nolan Batman used. That character is not BatGod.You are just making inane excuses for Zack Snyder. Batrobots aren't established but a giant Spider Robot that fires bullets are a regular part of Batman's regular arsenal right? Or that huge plane that did absolutely nothing other than waste budget. 

Cool it down with the insults and attitude. I said we want Superman to do things we expect of Superman. Same principle applies to Batman. Guns are guns whether the person firing them is regular or superhuman.MCU Black Panther, Spidey, Falcon , Hawkeye, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Jessica they dont use guns in the films. Cap has just used them once while Widow barely uses them. You can stop with your excuses now. People want to see Danny use Chi and Cap his shield. Similarly they expect Batman to use gadgets instead of machine guns that Snyder forced in to virtually every Batman action scene. Not only does it show his lack of understanding but also a lack of originality. Artistic liberty is called upon to do something fresh, there's nothing fresh about guns going bam, bam on fodder or bouncing off Superman.

Good, thank you.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Errr what? Instead of retortong my comment you instead threw all these information. What does Hardy have to do with Bruce wanting quit Batman after a year to be with a girl? 
> 
> You like to scream killing Batman is not my Batman but Batman wanting to quit after a mere year IS NOT BATMAN.


I gave you indicators that quantified the success of those films. Something BVS and JL desperately lack.

Hardy gave a performance that no one in the DCEU comes close to matching. I was highlighting the superiority of those films.

I gave you plenty of examples of Batman retiring including the story Snyder worships but utterly fails to understand.

Either way Nolan Batman trilogy has established itself as triumph in filmmaking. Unlike the laughing stock that are Snyder's DC films. You can continue your strawmaning about Batman quitting for a girl which never even happened to begin with. And while we're at it what exactly was Affleck's arc again in JL?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Just got done watching Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice on Xmas (cuz obviously an xmas movie lol).
> 
> Great movie, dripping with so much atmosphere that sadly many current comic book flicks lack including JL. Gotta love Snyder and his imagery mirroring the opening of Bruce falling with the Metropolis Zod thing symbolizing Bruce has "fallen" again. Brilliant set pieces and great acting. My only negative is the DoJ feel like this feel would have been perfect if it was purely the BvS aspect like it was originally intended  but the DoJ I thought was weaved in pretty well considered. 
> 
> 9/10.


It's the perfect Snyder film nice looking with no real depth and all over the place story wise.

----------


## Naked Bat

Batman V Superman is such a powerful movie. Its imagery and symbolism is way above what most CBM tries to pass as depth. The dark knight trilogy is equally powerful, not only because they are very well told, but also because they are true emotional rollercoaster and work as a single long story. 

I say we're lucky to have the burton movies, the nolan movies and the snyder movies.

Keaton, Bale, Affleck. I love all of them. All great in a different way. That's the beauty of batman, you can have really different takes and still be true to the character. You can have golden age keaton, bronze age bale (who is proof that the no kill rule can't really work even if his heart is in the right place) and dark age Affleck, whose world weary batman totally makes sense in the conetxt of this story and has a great arc, which is way more interesting, imo, than sticking to the no kill rule because "but in the comics... blablabla".

I would rather have an artist make a movie with a great story, who stay true to the character but can take some liberties than one who stick to the comics and deliver something bland. 

Snyder is someone with a vision. With a style. He's bold in his choices. I love his movies. I love the risks he took. I whish him the best.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Batman V Superman is such a powerful movie. Its imagery and symbolism is way above what most CBM tries to pass as depth. The dark knight trilogy is equally powerful, not only because they are very well told, but also because they are true emotional rollercoaster and work as a single long story. 
> 
> I say we're lucky to have the burton movies, the nolan movies and the snyder movies.
> 
> Keaton, Bale, Affleck. I love all of them. All great in a different way. That's the beauty of batman, you can have really different takes and still be true to the character. You can have golden age keaton, bronze age bale (who is proof that the no kill rule can't really work even if his heart is in the right place) and dark age Affleck, whose world weary batman totally makes sense in the conetxt of this story and has a great arc, which is way more interesting, imo, than sticking to the no kill rule because "but in the comics... blablabla".
> 
> I would rather have an artist make a movie with a great story, who stay true to the character but can take some liberties than one who stick to the comics and deliver something bland. 
> 
> Snyder is someone with a vision. With a style. He's bold in his choices. I love his movies. I love the risks he took. I whish him the best.


Wholeheartedly agree with this.

----------


## Ishmael

> Wholeheartedly agree with this.


Yeah, me too.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah, me too.


I'll sign on to it, also.

----------


## Darkseid Is

I think Snyder had a vision and interpreted (not misinterpreted) art the way he wanted to as art goes. I disagreed with a lot of what he did but who am I but someone who interpreted the same stuff different. People like to make a big deal out of this stuff. I mean, I like most of Snyder's movies and it's weird how people all of a sudden started to hate him.

----------


## Punisher007

> Nolan Batman has 2 movies at over a billion dollars each. TDK is regarded as the greatest CBM, Batman Begins made a huge impact in the film industry. They have masterful performances from the likes of Ledger and Hardy, they all are ranked top movies for their respective years on imdb. They all made it to AFI top 10 for their respective years. Ledger remains the only actor in a CBM to clinch a major Oscar. TDK forced the Academy to include more films. Bale smokes Affleck on every major poll.
> 
> BVS and JL are better compared to Schumacher's Batman.


Also Nolan's Batman doesn't intentionally kill people.  That's what sets him above Burton and Snyder's version imo.  He isn't mowing down a bunch of people intentionally and then showing no remorse for it afterwards like their versions were.

If I want to see The Punisher (and you can probably tell by my username that I do), I'll watch The Punisher (which I have).  Don't try to turn Batman into the Punisher, it just doesn't work.

----------


## Agent Z

> *Also Nolan's Batman doesn't intentionally kill people.*  That's what sets him above Burton and Snyder's version imo.  He isn't mowing down a bunch of people intentionally and then showing no remorse for it afterwards like their versions were.
> 
> If I want to see The Punisher (and you can probably tell by my username that I do), I'll watch The Punisher (which I have).  Don't try to turn Batman into the Punisher, it just doesn't work.


What do you call leaving a man to die in a crashing train (after you yourself wrecked the tracks) and shooting hell fire missiles at a person? Those things don't have a non-lethal setting.

----------


## Barbatos666

You're fixating on specific incidents while completely ignoring literally everything else. There's a lot more to Nolan's Batman character and his films than the time he left Ra's on a train or when he fired missiles to divert the route of a truck.

Batfleck just shoots people all the time, written terribly, has a crappy score, unremarkably acted and is completely mischaracterized. There's just nothing to find even remotely endearing on any level about this character other than his looks.
Once you start looking at the big picture Batfleck just collapses. Throw in Ben Affleck walking away from the films writing and directing, consistent doubts about his involvement with the project in any capacity, his script being tossed aside and WBs general inability to get another Batman solo off the ground 6 and a half years plus counting after Rises which was a billion dollar critical success despite their best efforts shows that the Batfleck project is struggling if not an outright failure. 
Fixating on the time Nolan or Burton did something to justify Batfleck & Snyder's failings is not going to accomplish anything. They had their say, they created products that are widely loved, they made their mark and no longer have anything to prove.

----------


## Agent Z

> You're fixating on specific incidents while completely ignoring literally everything else. There's a lot more to Nolan's Batman character and his films than the time he left Ra's on a train or when he fired missiles to divert the route of a truck.
> 
> Batfleck just shoots people all the time, written terribly, has a crappy score, unremarkably acted and is completely mischaracterized. There's just nothing to find even remotely endearing on any level about this character other than his looks.
> Once you start looking at the big picture Batfleck just collapses. Throw in Ben Affleck walking away from the films writing and directing, consistent doubts about his involvement with the project in any capacity, his script being tossed aside and WBs general inability to get another Batman solo off the ground 6 and a half years plus counting after Rises which was a billion dollar critical success despite their best efforts shows that the Batfleck project is struggling if not an outright failure. 
> Fixating on the time Nolan or Burton did something to justify Batfleck & Snyder's failings is not going to accomplish anything. They had their say, they created products that are widely loved, they made their mark and no longer have anything to prove.


We've already had this conversation before. I was responding to punisher007's comment which had nothing to do with acting, score or whatever. Please take time to read before replying.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I think Snyder had a vision and interpreted (not misinterpreted) art the way he wanted to as art goes. I disagreed with a lot of what he did but who am I but someone who interpreted the same stuff different. People like to make a big deal out of this stuff. I mean, I like most of Snyder's movies and it's weird how people all of a sudden started to hate him.


Its the same thing with David Ayer, and how critics are calling Bright the worst movie of the year despite it actually being a good movie that touches some racial issues in society, its now the cool thing to hate certain directors.

----------


## Agent Z

> Its the same thing with David Ayer, and how critics are calling Bright the worst movie of the year despite it actually being a good movie that touches some racial issues in society, its now the cool thing to hate certain directors.


Eh, I've seen Bright. That film deserves every bit of hate it gets in my opinion.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Keaton, Bale, Affleck. I love all of them. All great in a different way. That's the beauty of batman, you can have really different takes and still be true to the character. You can have golden age keaton, bronze age bale (who is proof that the no kill rule can't really work even if his heart is in the right place) and dark age Affleck, whose world weary batman totally makes sense in the conetxt of this story and has a great arc, which is way more interesting, imo, than sticking to the no kill rule because "but in the comics... blablabla".
> 
> I would rather have an artist make a movie with a great story, who stay true to the character but can take some liberties than one who stick to the comics and deliver something bland. 
> .


So would that make the Batman movie starring Adam West the stone age?  Who, by the way, didn't kill anyone in that movie.  Not even Catwoman, Joker, Penguin, or Riddler killed
 anyone in that movie. (though admittedly they did try to several times). And that movie was anything but bland.  One of the best Batman movies ever for pure entertainment.




> What do you call leaving a man to die in a crashing train (after you yourself wrecked the tracks) and shooting hell fire missiles at a person? Those things don't have a non-lethal setting.


As Batman said, he doesn't kill. But that doesn't mean he has to save everyone.

----------


## Agent Z

> So would that make the Batman movie starring Adam West the stone age?  Who, by the way, didn't kill anyone in that movie.  Not even Catwoman, Joker, Penguin, or Riddler killed
>  anyone in that movie. (though admittedly they did try to several times). And that movie was anything but bland.  One of the best Batman movies ever for pure entertainment.
> 
> 
> 
> As Batman said, he doesn't kill. But that doesn't mean he has to save everyone.


The Adam West movie and tv series is incredibly dated and for another time. 

He says he doesn't kill but he clearly has no problem breaking that promise when it suits him.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> The Adam West movie and tv series is incredibly dated and for another time. 
> .


So stone age.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Eh, I've seen Bright. That film deserves every bit of hate it gets in my opinion.


It's more the tryhard writing than Ayer's direction though.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The Adam West movie and tv series is incredibly dated and for another time. 
> 
> He says he doesn't kill but he clearly has no problem breaking that promise when it suits him.


So is Burton's Batman, Donner's Superman, and guess what so will be the Snyder Superman in a few years. The key is taking what worked in previous incarnations and incorporating them into new interpretation.

----------


## Agent Z

> So is Burton's Batman, Donner's Superman, and guess what so will be the Snyder Superman in a few years. The key is taking what worked in previous incarnations and incorporating them into new interpretation.


Not everything that worked before is going to work now. Or what exactly do you think can be taken from the West version and interpreted into modern versions?

----------


## Agent Z

> So stone age.


If you're comfortable labelling it that, sure. Either way, it's a product of its time.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Not everything that worked before is going to work now. Or what exactly do you think can be taken from the West version and interpreted into modern versions?


Batusi of course. 

Also perhaps a more mentally healthy Batman who has moved somewhat beyond his parents death and is Batman because of Justice kind of like he was in the Silver and Bronze Ages. 

And that sweet Kick Ass Batmobile. 

I will say this my favorite Batman on film is the 90's animated series version but I enjoyed both the Adam West animated films released in the last two years over all the DCEU.

----------


## Jokerz79

> If you're comfortable labelling it that, sure. Either way, it's a product of its time.


At least Adam West's Batman was suppose to be funny and people were laughing with it over laughing at it with

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Eh, I've seen Bright. That film deserves every bit of hate it gets in my opinion.


I thought it was bad but I've seen far worse and no way its the worse of the year(Transformers 5 I'm looking at you). It was basically 'Lord Of The Rings' meets 'Training Day'. It's an R-rated version of Zootopia but ironically much less mature and nuanced in it message of prejudice.

----------


## chamber-music

> What do you call leaving a man to die in a crashing train (after you yourself wrecked the tracks) and shooting hell fire missiles at a person? Those things don't have a non-lethal setting.


Gordon wrecked the tracks with the batmobile

Ra's Al Ghul destroyed the controls with his broken sword to stop Batman from stopping the train. 

Batman not rescuing the life of a terrorist for the second time after the terrorist destroyed the controls to the train they are on isn't murder. It is like if arsonist set fire to an apartment building and then got trapped by the flames. If you saw the trapped arsonist and ran out the building instead of trying to save him it wouldn't make you a murder. It is morally dubious but legally it wouldn't meet the legal standard for for murder. 

Bale's Batman certainly killed Talia. Batman could possibly get manslaughter charges for torching the League base that was filled with explosives and wrestling Two-Face off the ledge resulting in Dent's death.

----------


## Agent Z

> At least Adam West's Batman was suppose to be funny and people were laughing with it over laughing at it with


Okay this negates what I said, how?

----------


## Agent Z

> Gordon wrecked the tracks with the batmobile
> 
> Ra's Al Ghul destroyed the controls with his broken sword to stop Batman from stopping the train. 
> 
> Batman not rescuing the life of a terrorist for the second time after the terrorist destroyed the controls to the train they are on isn't murder. It is like if arsonist set fire to an apartment building and then got trapped by the flames. If you saw the trapped arsonist and ran out the building instead of trying to save him it wouldn't make you a murder. It is morally dubious but legally it wouldn't meet the legal standard for for murder. 
> 
> Bale's Batman certainly killed Talia. Batman could possibly get manslaughter charges for torching the League base that was filled with explosives and wrestling Two-Face off the ledge resulting in Dent's death.


Gordon wrecked the track because Bruce told him to. Bruce also said he didn't intend to stop the train.

----------


## Agent Z

> Batusi of course. 
> 
> Also perhaps a more mentally healthy Batman who has moved somewhat beyond his parents death and is Batman because of Justice kind of like he was in the Silver and Bronze Ages. 
> 
> And that sweet Kick Ass Batmobile. 
> 
> I will say this my favorite Batman on film is the 90's animated series version but I enjoyed both the Adam West animated films released in the last two years over all the DCEU.


A Bruce Wayne who'd moved on from his parents' death would have stopped being Batman after seeing how pointless and toxic it was. Hell, that's what Nolan's version did and he was the only version smart enough to realize Batman should not be a permanent thing.

----------


## Frontier

> A Bruce Wayne who'd moved on from his parents' death would have stopped being Batman after seeing how pointless and toxic it was. *Hell, that's what Nolan's version did and he was the only version smart enough to realize Batman should not be a permanent thing.*


He didn't though. He just passed on the mantle to someone else so they could keep doing it.

For as hopeless as a War on Crime may be, Batman accomplishes too much good in universe for him to not exist or give up the identity in it's entirety.

----------


## Ishmael

> Bale's Batman certainly killed Talia. Batman could possibly get manslaughter charges for torching the League base that was filled with explosives and wrestling Two-Face off the ledge resulting in Dent's death.


He killed her incidentally to try to stop her from nuking a city.  No tears shed there -- and a plausible argument can be made that she committed suicide by refusing to allow them to corral her so they could defuse the bomb.  So there's still shades of grey there.

So far as the League goes -- that wasn't in the US, so there are no US laws broken there that would make him culpable of manslaughter or anything else in our sense.  And I doubt whatever Asian nation that happened to have the League situated in it would be concerned that an internal squabble amongst the membership of a terrorist organization led to that organization's demise.  

And he killed Two-Face whilst saving Jim Gordon's son.  Again, an incidental death in the context of saving lives.  

None of these things show that Nolan's take on Batman involved Batman intentionally setting out to take lives.  In fact, it's arguable that in each instance the deaths that occur are directly the result of the villains themselves, who are putting others in a zero-sum situation of "stop me or else".  In fact, in the instances where Batman could directly kill someone -- such as hitting the Joker with the Batpod or letting him fall to his death after throwing him over the ledge -- he doesn't.

----------


## Agent Z

> He killed her incidentally to try to stop her from nuking a city.  No tears shed there -- and a plausible argument can be made that she committed suicide by refusing to allow them to corral her so they could defuse the bomb.  So there's still shades of grey there.
> 
> So far as the League goes -- that wasn't in the US, so there are no US laws broken there that would make him culpable of manslaughter or anything else in our sense.  And I doubt whatever Asian nation that happened to have the League situated in it would be concerned that an internal squabble amongst the membership of a terrorist organization led to that organization's demise.  
> 
> And he killed Two-Face whilst saving Jim Gordon's son.  Again, an incidental death in the context of saving lives.  
> 
> None of these things show that Nolan's take on Batman involved Batman intentionally setting out to take lives.  In fact, it's arguable that in each instance the deaths that occur are directly the result of the villains themselves, who are putting others in a zero-sum situation of "stop me or else".  In fact, in the instances where Batman could directly kill someone -- such as hitting the Joker with the Batpod or letting him fall to his death after throwing him over the ledge -- he doesn't.


I never claimed that he wasn't trying to save lives when he killed people. Just that deliberately killing them was saving lives. That is still intent.

----------


## Hypestyle

I'd like to see Zan and Jayna brought into the DCEU, it could be fun for a movie like a Justice League sequel or Flash's film.  Lighthearted but not slapstick, it could work.

----------


## Ishmael

> I never claimed that he wasn't trying to save lives when he killed people. Just that deliberately killing them was saving lives. That is still intent.


And I don't think intent was the operative motive, which is why I said they were incidental.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Snyder v Whedon: Dawn of Reshoots

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...21&postcount=6

 :EEK!:

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Wouldn't it be ironic if an Aquaman movie outperforms a Justice League film?  There's no way  that Warner's will treat Wan the way they treated Snyder post-BvS since Wan directed an ultra successful billion dollar F&F film while with Snyder BvS under-preform.  They won't have their meddling clutches on  Aquaman. It's smooth sailing on Aquaman's  production oceans.  I can't wait.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Whedon has to write at least 1/3 to get writing credit
... WB can say it's a "Zack Snyder film" but evidence clearly points to the fact Whedon was far more involved then was let on. 

No alternative cut no nothing JL is an unsalvageable mess. This is the third time and the worst meddling WB have done in the DCEU so can't even say at least they learned a lesson evidently they'll learn the wrong lesson. 

MARVEL will release 3 more films before the next DCEU one... Way to make your competition run free WB.

----------


## Frontier

> Snyder v Whedon: Dawn of Reshoots


It almost looks like Aquaman goes from serious to wide-eyed in the span of a minute...

----------


## Styles

New Aquaman pic. Maybe that's Black Manta he's about to fight with?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> New Aquaman pic. Maybe that's Black Manta he's about to fight with?


Looks intense! Can't wait for WB to reshoot it to add some humour  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> New Aquaman pic. Maybe that's Black Manta he's about to fight with?


Or maybe one of Manta's men? 

I wonder if this is the flashback to when Arthur killed Manta's dad? Wasn't that set at a refinery?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> New Aquaman pic. Maybe that's Black Manta he's about to fight with?


Damn, he looks like a badass!

And yeah, that does look like armor and a polearm of some kind. Probably Manta or one of his henchmen.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Looks intense! Can't wait for WB to reshoot it to add some humour


Lol don't even joke! 


When do we think we'll get the first teaser trailer? I'm thinking msybe late February/early March. About 9 months out from release seems about right, based on WB history with their comic films.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Looks intense! Can't wait for WB to reshoot it to add some humour


Lol delete this before WB execs see it.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> MARVEL will release 3 more films before the next DCEU one... Way to make your competition run free WB.


Quality, not quantity




> Looks intense! Can't wait for WB to reshoot it to add some humour


Like they did with Wonder Woman?

----------


## Agent Z

> Quality, not quantity
> 
> 
> 
> Like they did with Wonder Woman?


Like they did with Suicide Squad and Justice League.

Of course, Wan has said he's had a lot of freedom on Aquaman so we'll see.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Like they did with Suicide Squad and Justice League.


I think the original plan was to have The Batman come out in the Summer of 2018 but through no fault of WB, Ben Affleck up and decided he didn't want to direct The Batman
so that's what left the hole in WB's Summer schedule.  Stuff happens no one can plan for and so they just have to make do with what they have. For 2019 and beyond WB
should be back on track with two to three superhero movies a year.

----------


## Triple J

> Like they did with Suicide Squad and Justice League.
> 
> Of course, Wan has said he's had a lot of freedom on Aquaman so we'll see.


Hopefully...WB had to have learned their lesson by now. Then again, we thought the same after hearing about SS fiasco (although SS didn't do too badly in the end).

----------


## Confuzzled

James Wan is not David Ayer or a post Sucker Punch/MoS/BvS Zack Snyder. They aren't going to mess with his film.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> James Wan is not David Ayer or a post Sucker Punch/MoS/BvS Zack Snyder. They aren't going to mess with his film.


Did WB mess with Man of Steel that much?  I got the idea that because Snyder was left alone on Man of Steel, that was the reason WB felt the need to step in on BvS, they didn't trust
Snyder as much but were stuck with him by then.  So they felt the need to manage him more. And it flowed downhill to Ayer where they didn't trust his vision either.  Not sure how 
Patty Jenkins escaped their notice other than maybe WB didn't think Wonder Woman would amount to anything anyway and wasn't worth bothering with. Would be another Catwoman.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Did WB mess with Man of Steel that much?  I got the idea that because Snyder was left alone on Man of Steel, that was the reason WB felt the need to step in on BvS, they didn't trust
> Snyder as much but were stuck with him by then.  So they felt the need to manage him more. And it flowed downhill to Ayer where they didn't trust his vision either.  Not sure how 
> Patty Jenkins escaped their notice other than maybe WB didn't think Wonder Woman would amount to anything anyway and wasn't worth bothering with. Would be another Catwoman.


The execs weren't sure about Snyder's vision from MoS onwards but influential supporters like Chris Nolan backed him up so they conceded. After MoS was divisive, they had a little leeway to change BvS's theatrical cut a little (having it edited to a shorter run time etc.) but the plan was still to stick with Snyder's overall vision for the DCEU, which Ayer's original Suicide Squad tone stuck to.

Once the reviews for BvS started pouring in and people started bashing the "dark and gritty tone", the execs' worst fears were proven true. Didn't help that Suicide Squad's very popular Bohemian Rhapsody trailer reportedly had a completely different tone to Ayer's original tone which was similar to BvS's bashed one. So they made Ayer reshoot some of the scenes and the trailer company edited version of the film scored better with test audiences than Ayer's cut so the former was chosen over the latter.

In Jenkins's case, she and her writers always stayed true to their vision of Wonder Woman depicted in the light of the idealistic Donner Superman, the tone many critics and vocal online commentators demanded the DCEU adapt. There wasn't a need to change her film at all unlike Ayer and Snyder's films.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdRZOfHgmO1/

The plot of Shazam revealed by director David F. Sandberg? :P

----------


## Punisher007

_Aquaman_ seems like the one production that's gone pretty smoothly (at least so far).  Even _Wonder Woman,_ which went smoother than the rest, still had the director change early on.

----------


## Punisher007

> What do you call leaving a man to die in a crashing train (after you yourself wrecked the tracks) and shooting hell fire missiles at a person? Those things don't have a non-lethal setting.


Yeah here's the thing, unless Nolan's Batman shot Ra's intentionally, or stabbed him to death, or blew him up, or lit him on fire, etc, it still ain't the same thing.  He didn't kill Ra's, he left Ra's in a situation (that Ra's put himself in when Bruce tried to talk him down multiple times), and just didn't save him.

Sorry, not the same thing as Burton and Snyder's Batman intentionally and systematically mowing people down.

----------


## Punisher007

> Gordon wrecked the tracks with the batmobile
> 
> Ra's Al Ghul destroyed the controls with his broken sword to stop Batman from stopping the train. 
> 
> Batman not rescuing the life of a terrorist for the second time after the terrorist destroyed the controls to the train they are on isn't murder. It is like if arsonist set fire to an apartment building and then got trapped by the flames. If you saw the trapped arsonist and ran out the building instead of trying to save him it wouldn't make you a murder. It is morally dubious but legally it wouldn't meet the legal standard for for murder. 
> 
> Bale's Batman certainly killed Talia. Batman could possibly get manslaughter charges for torching the League base that was filled with explosives and wrestling Two-Face off the ledge resulting in Dent's death.


Batman killed Talia as a last resort because a Nuke was about to go off within minutes.  And no, he wouldn't be facing manslaughter charges in either of the latter two cases.  The first one (which was before he even became Batman BTW) was self-defense pure and simple, and the second one was an accident brought on by trying to save a CHILD.  So again, not the same as Burton or Snyder's takes.

----------


## Barbatos666

Suicide Squad was a rush job from day one and Snyder blew his cred. Thats why those films were edited heavily.

Wonder Woman went fine, Aquaman looks to be going fine. They're giving Reeves his time for Batman. Just because Snyder lost the trust of the higher ups doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah here's the thing, unless Nolan's Batman shot Ra's intentionally, or stabbed him to death, or blew him up, or lit him on fire, etc, it still ain't the same thing.  He didn't kill Ra's, he left Ra's in a situation (that Ra's put himself in when Bruce tried to talk him down multiple times), and just didn't save him.
> 
> Sorry, not the same thing as Burton and Snyder's Batman intentionally and systematically mowing people down.


Nolan's Bruce destroyed the train tracks and smashed the trains controls so it would keep going ahead. He even flat out states he didn't want the train to stop.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Nolan's Bruce destroyed the train tracks and smashed the trains controls so it would keep going ahead. He even flat out states he didn't want the train to stop.


Actually Ra's destroyed the controls because he didn't want Bruce to stop the train. 
Bruce had Gordon as plan B incase he failed to stop Ra's. If destroying the tracks was all of Bruce's plan then he never needed to entrust Gordon with the job as he could have done it himself. In that scenario he didn't even have to board the train in the first place or arguably even go to the Narrows.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Batman killed Talia as a last resort because a Nuke was about to go off within minutes.  And no, he wouldn't be facing manslaughter charges in either of the latter two cases.  The first one (which was before he even became Batman BTW) was self-defense pure and simple, and the second one was an accident brought on by trying to save a CHILD.  So again, not the same as Burton or Snyder's takes.


All this proves is you can't have a Batman film without killing, Bruce was all like no guns to Catwoman she blows Bane up and all of a sudden Bruce doesn't give a crap about his convictions anymore. Nolan's Batman is easily the worst in this regard so many deaths happened and worst of all is he had an established no kill rule in that film IF you are complaining about Snyder's version then you HAVE to complain about Nolan nuke or not, child or not DEATH IS STILL DEATH KILL IS STILL KILL HE KILLED REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION. You cannot establish this rule then have all these asterix next to it except in the event there is a nuke I can kill, or I have to save a child I can kill etc etc you can't have your cake and then eat it. Nolan's Batman killed just like Snyders and Burtons. Hell Snyders Batman didn't even have a rule so his Batman is not a flaw with the film AT ALL.

----------


## Agent Z

> Actually Ra's destroyed the controls because he didn't want Bruce to stop the train. 
> Bruce had Gordon as plan B incase he failed to stop Ra's. If destroying the tracks was all of Bruce's plan then he never needed to entrust Gordon with the job as he could have done it himself. In that scenario he didn't even have to board the train in the first place or arguably even go to the Narrows.


Again, Bruce said he didn't want to stop the train.




Nowhere is it stated that Gordon is a plan b. 

I'll agree I made a mistake on who destroyed the controls but as Bruce states, it wasn't like that worked out against him.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> All this proves is you can't have a Batman film without killing, Bruce was all like no guns to Catwoman she blows Bane up and all of a sudden Bruce doesn't give a crap about his convictions anymore. Nolan's Batman is easily the worst in this regard so many deaths happened and worst of all is he had an established no kill rule in that film IF you are complaining about Snyder's version then you HAVE to complain about Nolan nuke or not, child or not DEATH IS STILL DEATH KILL IS STILL KILL HE KILLED REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION. You cannot establish this rule then have all these asterix next to it except in the event there is a nuke I can kill, or I have to save a child I can kill etc etc you can't have your cake and then eat it. Nolan's Batman killed just like Snyders and Burtons. Hell Snyders Batman didn't even have a rule so his Batman is not a flaw with the film AT ALL.


As fan of all three series, I have to agree. You can't beat up one without beating up on all of them, IMO.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Again, Bruce said he didn't want to stop the train.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nowhere is it stated that Gordon is a plan b. 
> 
> I'll agree I made a mistake on who destroyed the controls but as Bruce states, it wasn't like that worked out against him.


Does it have to be stated that Gordon is plan b? look at how many explosive charges he wasted(big gamble giving him controls) before he hit his target and look how close he was to Wayne tower, he could have derailed the train at any other point. Its clear that Ra's destroyed the controls so that the train wouldn't be stopped, he just didn't figure that by then Bruce didn't need it to be stopped as he already had a guy to deal with such a situation.
Bruce didn't have to board the train at all if his intention was to blow up the tracks all along. He knew the plan well in advance after all, his mission could have easily been accomplished. Ra's didn't want to be saved, that's what these sequence of events led to. Not just the actual moment Batman glides away from him, he chose death.

----------


## Ishmael

> ... DEATH IS STILL DEATH KILL IS STILL KILL HE KILLED REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION.


This simply isn't true.  Situation determines whether killing is an act of self-defense, manslaughter, or murder.  And each of those distinctions entails different forms of culpability.  This is true for law, morality, and theology, and always has been.

So it does matter.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This simply isn't true.  Situation determines whether killing is an act of self-defense, manslaughter, or murder.  And each of those distinctions entails different forms of culpability.  This is true for law, morality, and theology, and always has been.
> 
> So it does matter.


While I agree with that in reality or even in some or all cases on screen in regard to Bruce, Batman doesn't kill in any situation within the comics (except for so-called monsters before my parents were even born). So for this conversation, I believe it applies.

----------


## Ishmael

> While I agree with that in reality or even in some or all cases on screen in regard to Bruce, Batman doesn't kill in any situation within the comics (except for so-called monsters before my parents were even born). So for this conversation, I believe it applies.


But we're not talking about Batman in the comics -- we're talking about Batman in Nolan's films.  The issue, I thought, was whether the deaths that occur in the film are attributable to him, and in what way.  And my point is simply that he is not responsible for Ra's al Ghul's death, nor that of Harvey Dent, in the way that's being suggested -- which seems to be as killings reflecting murderous intent.  They die, but as the result of their own machinations (something that has also happened at different times in the comics btw, but we'll let that lay).  

Nolan's Batman doesn't shove dynamite in someone's pants before pushing them down some sort of shaft (Burton) or mow them down like Enemy Ace (Snyder).  The deaths that occur are the result of villains putting into action a plan that doesn't go the way they want, and ends with their own demise.  Batman's role in it is not a calculated one as some have been suggesting on this thread.

----------


## Sirzechs

> This simply isn't true.  Situation determines whether killing is an act of self-defense, manslaughter, or murder.  And each of those distinctions entails different forms of culpability.  This is true for law, morality, and theology, and always has been.
> 
> So it does matter.


Not when he comes to Batman, in the comics Bruce refuses to kill even when the situation is dire because he believes hes not about the law, which is why Superman hates his guts in Injustice.
So to justify Nolan's take as manslaughter is hypocritical when it comes on to Batman, all of them killed dont try to excuse one simply because you preferred that take.

----------


## Ishmael

> Not when he comes to Batman, in the comics Bruce refuses to kill even when the situation is dire because he believes hes not about the law, which is why Superman hates his guts in Injustice.
> So to justify Nolan's take as manslaughter is hypocritical when it comes on to Batman, all of them killed dont try to excuse one simply because you preferred that take.


Oh please.  Refusing to save Ra's is not killing him.  It's leaving him to save himself (and if he's the grand planner he pretended to be, he should've prepared, shouldn't he?). And saving Gordon's son simply trumps anything else.  

The movies place the character in a Catch-22 situation that he never truly faces in the comics.  And there's nothing wrong with the responses they portray.

----------


## Powerboy

> All this proves is you can't have a Batman film without killing, Bruce was all like no guns to Catwoman she blows Bane up and all of a sudden Bruce doesn't give a crap about his convictions anymore. Nolan's Batman is easily the worst in this regard so many deaths happened and worst of all is he had an established no kill rule in that film IF you are complaining about Snyder's version then you HAVE to complain about Nolan nuke or not, child or not DEATH IS STILL DEATH KILL IS STILL KILL HE KILLED REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION. You cannot establish this rule then have all these asterix next to it except in the event there is a nuke I can kill, or I have to save a child I can kill etc etc you can't have your cake and then eat it. Nolan's Batman killed just like Snyders and Burtons. Hell Snyders Batman didn't even have a rule so his Batman is not a flaw with the film AT ALL.


To be honest, I find "I'm not going to kill you but I'm not going to save you either" to be worse than just outright killing someone because it's less honest and more about rationalization.  "It wasn't my fault.  I didn't directly do it.  You can't blame me."

----------


## Jokerz79

Nolan's Batman is inconsistent but he benefits from being in good movies unlike Batfleck. Both story and editing wise every film Batfleck has been in BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League are messes. Nolan's films have movie logic holes like all films but they're also edited well and have a cohesive story not only in one film but all the films. Nolan's Batman is established from Begins with his end scene with Rachel that he thought being Batman was a temporary thing and he would one day resume a normal live once he got crime in Gotham under control and that narrative continued through all the films with his support of Harvey and actually retiring in Dark Knight Rises. While I love Begins and Dark Knight I do personally hate that idea but it was a part of that version of the character from day one.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Oh please.  Refusing to save Ra's is not killing him.  It's leaving him to save himself (and if he's the grand planner he pretended to be, he should've prepared, shouldn't he?). And saving Gordon's son simply trumps anything else.  
> 
> The movies place the character in a Catch-22 situation that he never truly faces in the comics.  And there's nothing wrong with the responses they portray.


prepared how when he disarmed and physically beaten down. Batman could save himself because he had a cave capable of gliding to safety Ra's didnt he knew id die this time.

Nolan pulled the same stunts as Smallville and Flash in which the hero indirectly kills the villain.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Suicide Squad was a rush job from day one and Snyder blew his cred. Thats why those films were edited heavily.
> 
> Wonder Woman went fine, Aquaman looks to be going fine. They're giving Reeves his time for Batman. Just because Snyder lost the trust of the higher ups doesn't mean it applies to everyone.


We need MoS2.

----------


## Jokerz79

> We need MoS2.


As someone who is not a fan of the DCEU outside of Wonder Woman I really do hope a MOS 2 happens because I feel HC deserves a Superman film completely free of Snyder's influence.

----------


## golgi

I liked MOS, so I hope MOS 2 happens. Give me Matthew Vaughn. He seems to genuinely care about Superman.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> prepared how when he disarmed and physically beaten down. Batman could save himself because he had a cave capable of gliding to safety Ra's didnt he knew id die this time.
> 
> Nolan pulled the same stunts as Smallville and Flash in which the hero indirectly kills the villain.


With Batman Begins it wasn't that Batman killed Ra's. It was that Batman made no effort to keep Ra's alive. Ra's killed himself and Batman let Ra's do it.

----------


## Agent Z

> With Batman Begins it wasn't that Batman killed Ra's. It was that Batman made no effort to keep Ra's alive. Ra's killed himself and Batman let Ra's do it.


Ra's didn't blow out the tracks so no he didn't kill himself.

----------


## Agent Z

> Does it have to be stated that Gordon is plan b? look at how many explosive charges he wasted(big gamble giving him controls) before he hit his target and look how close he was to Wayne tower, he could have derailed the train at any other point. Its clear that Ra's destroyed the controls so that the train wouldn't be stopped, he just didn't figure that by then Bruce didn't need it to be stopped as he already had a guy to deal with such a situation.
> Bruce didn't have to board the train at all if his intention was to blow up the tracks all along. He knew the plan well in advance after all, his mission could have easily been accomplished. Ra's didn't want to be saved, that's what these sequence of events led to. Not just the actual moment Batman glides away from him, he chose death.


Yeah it does need to be stated that Hordon was plan b. If Bruce hadn't blown out the tracks the train would have still barrelled forward into the city's central water hub which is what Bruce was trying to avoid. If he wanted the train to keep going forward without blowing up the tracks he was a goddamned moron.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Yeah it does need to be stated that Hordon was plan b. If Bruce hadn't blown out the tracks the train would have still barrelled forward into the city's central water hub which is what Bruce was trying to avoid. If he wanted the train to keep going forward without blowing up the tracks he was a goddamned moron.


I dont think it does. Bruce could have blows the tracks before it even leaved the Narrows, so no blowing up the tracks therefore wasn't plan A. He went inside the train which he didn't have to, confronted Ra's which he didn't need to and it was Ra's himself who broke the controls not Batman. The train was to be derailed only if it wasn't stopped before reaching Wayne tower which Ra's himself ensured by destroying the controls. Hence Ra's sealed his own fate by refusing to stop.

----------


## Agent Z

> I dont think it does. Bruce could have blows the tracks before it even leaved the Narrows, so no blowing up the tracks therefore wasn't plan A. He went inside the train which he didn't have to, confronted Ra's which he didn't need to and it was Ra's himself who broke the controls not Batman. The train was to be derailed only if it wasn't stopped before reaching Wayne tower which Ra's himself ensured by destroying the controls. Hence Ra's sealed his own fate by refusing to stop.


Again, Bruce flat out states he did not want to stop the train. Whether it was plan b or not (and there is zero proof it was plan b) it does not change the fact that Bruce's plan ended with Ra's dead and no "he just didn't save him" isn't an excuse given he goes out of the way to save the Joker in the next film.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Again, Bruce flat out states he did not want to stop the train. Whether it was plan b or not (and there is zero proof it was plan b) it does not change the fact that Bruce's plan ended with Ra's dead *and no "he just didn't save him" isn't an excuse given he goes out of the way to save the Joker in the next film.*


Well, when put like that, Nolan Bats just comes across as shittier for saving the life of the psycho terrorist who posed a threat to Gotham, just because Joker wanted to bend his morals and Bruce had to one-up him by showing he would save even him. When he had no problem letting a previous terrorist perish because Ra's did not seek to challenge Bruce in the way Joker did. 

It weirdly becomes a thing about Bruce's own ego that I didn't realize earlier and darkly shows that the Joker knew Batman was hypocritical and giving him special treatment because he had struck a different sorta nerve with him. Gives a whole new meaning to _"You and I are destined to do this forever..."_ now.  :EEK!:

----------


## Barbatos666

> Again, Bruce flat out states he did not want to stop the train. Whether it was plan b or not (and there is zero proof it was plan b) it does not change the fact that Bruce's plan ended with Ra's dead and no "he just didn't save him" isn't an excuse given he goes out of the way to save the Joker in the next film.


He states it after Ra's damaged the controls not before, I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand. 
Using Gordon automatically makes it plan B. 
He threw Joker himself, Ra's put himself in that situation. No comparison at all.

----------


## Frontier

Momoa talks about the appeal of his Aquaman, both to himself and for kids.

----------


## Agent Z

> He states it after Ra's damaged the controls not before, I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand. 
> Using Gordon automatically makes it plan B. 
> He threw Joker himself, Ra's put himself in that situation. No comparison at all.


Makes no difference. 

No it does not unless stated to be such. 

And Joker didn't put himself in that situation? It isn't like Bruce couldn't have saved Ra's he just chose not to.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> As someone who is not a fan of the DCEU outside of Wonder Woman I really do hope a MOS 2 happens because I feel HC deserves a Superman film completely free of Snyder's influence.


Yeah, Gadot/WW has a great and well deserved future ahead of her, and Batman always bounces back easily even if they recast (Affleck clearly doesn't give a crap anymore). But Cavill's been consistently getting the short end of the stick and he's being wasted. I would love to see him in more movies as Superman with a different creative team behind the camera. It'd be no different than a new writer coming on board the book and moving it in a different direction.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Yeah, Gadot/WW has a great and well deserved future ahead of her, and Batman always bounces back easily even if they recast (Affleck clearly doesn't give a crap anymore). But Cavill's been consistently getting the short end of the stick and he's being wasted. I would love to see him in more movies as Superman with a different creative team behind the camera. It'd be no different than a new writer coming on board the book and moving it in a different direction.


I'm just wondering if there has ever been a movie that revived a failed franchise using the same actor. Usually when a new director, producers and writers come along they want their own man.  
That's why I think Affleck is probably out now that Reeve is directing The Batman.  I don't think Suicide Squad is considered a failed franchise because SS made a lot of money and that is why
Will Smith and Margot Robbie are back for SS2. Plus they are hugely popular with general audiences, something I don't think Cavill has. Yes, he has fans, but not at Smith and Robbie levels.

----------


## Robotman

> I'm just wondering if there has ever been a movie that revived a failed franchise using the same actor. Usually when a new director, producers and writers come along they want their own man.  
> That's why I think Affleck is probably out now that Reeve is directing The Batman.  I don't think Suicide Squad is considered a failed franchise because SS made a lot of money and that is why
> Will Smith and Margot Robbie are back for SS2. Plus they are hugely popular with general audiences, something I don't think Cavill has. Yes, he has fans, but not at Smith and Robbie levels.


Which is pretty much the reason I think WB will recast Superman when they eventually try to make another film. I think they will try to distance themselves and Superman from BvS and Justice League. I liked Cavill as Superman but i personally don’t think we’ll see him in the role again.

----------


## Styles

New 'Aquaman' Image With A Hook Released By Director James Wan

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Wan's already confirmed that it's not teasing the hook hand, so don't get too wild with the speculation! :P

----------


## Frontier

Well, having the hook hand would make wielding the trident pretty impractical  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Wan's already confirmed that it's not teasing the hook hand, so don't get too wild with the speculation! :P


Dammit!




> Well, having the hook hand would make wielding the trident pretty impractical .


Could have lead to water hand. Hmph.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Makes no difference. 
> 
> No it does not unless stated to be such. 
> 
> And Joker didn't put himself in that situation? It isn't like Bruce couldn't have saved Ra's he just chose not to.


Yes it does actually. I have stated repeatedly that if blowing up the tracks and killing was Bruce's plan all along then 
He would have done it himself instead of entrusting the job to Gordon which automatically makes it plan b.
He had no incentive to board the train himself if destroying it was the primary plan.

Once again you choose to ignore the larger context and themes that lead to the moment and instead fixate on the moment.
Ra's was there to die with his train in the cause of his mission, just like Talia and Bane. They were unsavable because they had already chosen death. That's why Batman refused to save them.

Joker was there to corrupt Gotham and its heroes. 

In any event there was never any murderous intent, apathy at most. Batfleck kills with full intent.

----------


## Styles

Shazam! Director Tweets Response To DC Films Skeptics

----------


## Johnny

> ‘Shazam!’ Director Tweets Response To DC Films Skeptics


Feels nice anytime these idiots get slamdunked by filmmakers.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

I like Sandberg's new approach to filmmaking.  :Big Grin: 

_"We’re smart about it though. We’ve decided to skip production and just go straight to reshoots to save money."_

https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...07159966105600

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I like Sandberg's new approach to filmmaking. 
> 
> _"We’re smart about it though. We’ve decided to skip production and just go straight to reshoots to save money."_
> 
> https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...07159966105600


Will he be taking advantage of the reshoots to add a mustache to every shot of Zach Levi? :P

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Feels nice anytime these idiots get slamdunked by filmmakers.


How about he worries about his movie getting MADE and COMPLETED before worrying about anyone on the internet?

EVERY film gets this treatment so it's not just his getting picked on.

He went into this knowing the line of backlash toward DC films is out there.

----------


## Johnny

> How about he worries about his movie getting MADE and COMPLETED before worrying about anyone on the internet?
> 
> EVERY film gets this treatment so it's not just his getting picked on.
> 
> He went into this knowing the line of backlash toward DC films is out there.


Meh. Calling out idiots for being idiots is always fun.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Meh. Calling out idiots for being idiots is always fun.


How is being pessimistic about the DCEU idiotic? 1 divisive film, 3 train wrecks, and 1 good film the smart money is on pessimism.

----------


## Johnny

> How is being pessimistic about the DCEU idiotic? 1 divisive film, 3 train wrecks, and 1 good film the smart money is on pessimism.


It's idiotic to presume the movie will suck just because the cast is mostly based on the New 52. That's how the fan Sandberg responded to, expressed himself. Then he added that it's "better to steer clear of this movie until the DCEU gets a reboot". That wasn't merely being pessimistic, it was being an ass. Noone says people should just blindly trust WB, but that type of behavior totally deserves to be called out on what it is and Sandberg seems to agree.

----------


## Sirzechs

> How is being pessimistic about the DCEU idiotic? 1 divisive film, 3 train wrecks, and 1 good film the smart money is on pessimism.


An of those 5 films DC already made 3 Billion dollars, something I might add that Marvel didnt do until Avengers, since despite raving reviews from critics their films barely crossed 500M. So no the smart money isnt on pessimism.

----------


## Bossace

Looks like we are getting the digital version of the movie on January 30th, still no word on extended version, did BVS UE and regular edition come out same day or was UE later?

----------


## Lex Luthor

> An of those 5 films DC already made 3 Billion dollars, something I might add that Marvel didnt do until Avengers, since despite raving reviews from critics their films barely crossed 500M. So no the smart money isnt on pessimism.


Thats because those 5 films featured the most popular characters of the entire genre and it eventually lead to the biggest names in comic books being unable to even do well in the box office because the brand had become so tainted by continuous bad movies/reviews and bad marketing

----------


## stephens2177

> Thats because those 5 films featured the most popular characters of the entire genre and it eventually lead to the biggest names in comic books being unable to even do well in the box office because the brand had become so tainted by continuous bad movies/reviews and bad marketing


Every damn DCEU promotion has been so bland,and bland is the word for a lot of their stuff.they need to go very vivid and pop

----------


## Styles

WONDER WOMAN 2 Director Says The Sequel Will Be "Totally Different"; Teases Possible Lynda Carter Cameo

----------


## Carabas

> Looks like we are getting the digital version of the movie on January 30th, still no word on extended version, did BVS UE and regular edition come out same day or was UE later?


I don't remember there even being a regular version of Dawn Of Justice.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't remember there even being a regular version of Dawn Of Justice.


Yeah, the regular DVD version was the Theatrical Cut.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah, the regular DVD version was the Theatrical Cut.


Alright. I have never seen it in stores around here.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Looks like we are getting the digital version of the movie on January 30th, still no word on extended version, did BVS UE and regular edition come out same day or was UE later?


UE & Theatrical were released the same day. Theatrical on DVD, UE on Bluray & 4K. Suicide Squad was also the same day, following mostly the same format, but curiously only the Theatrical cut is available on 4K instead of the extended version.

It's possible WB may prepare an extended cut to be released later, ala The Hobbit trilogy, but who knows at this point.

----------


## golgi

Most of the marketing has been good. JL had a boring campaign, but that can't be said for SS, BVS, or MOS.

----------


## Frontier

> Most of the marketing has been good. JL had a boring campaign, but that can't be said for SS, BVS, or MOS.


That "Come Together" riff in the commercials was pretty good, but I never really felt like during the promotion for Justice League that this "super-cool" film that I just _had_ to see or get really hyped for beyond my general passion as a DC fan. 

Though maybe that's my own mixed feelings about the DCEU getting in the way of that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That "Come Together" riff in the commercials was pretty good, but I never really felt like during the promotion for Justice League that this "super-cool" film that I just _had_ to see or get really hyped for beyond my general passion as a DC fan. 
> 
> Though maybe that's my own mixed feelings about the DCEU getting in the way of that.


There wasn't a novelty factor to the film like how the other DCEU films had. First "Justice League team up" doesn't have the same ring to it when the Trinity already featured together in BvS. And the other 3 didn't even have their own solos to introduce them yet.

And maybe the marketing downplaying Superman's role in the film probably hurt the film a little as well. Many people who don't watch all the trailers didn't know he was in this till the end.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Warner Bros. Taps Walter Hamada to Oversee DC Films Production*




> As part of a shakeup of its DC film operations, Warner Bros. is promoting Walter Hamada to oversee its comic book movies, Variety has learned. He will serve as president of DC-based film production. In December, the studio decided to replace Jon Berg and Geoff Johns as the heads of the DC movies. Berg became a production partner with Roy Lee, the producer of “The Lego Movie” and “It,” who has a deal on the lot. Johns remains at DC as its president and chief creative officer, but is taking on more of an advisory role on the movies.
> 
> The move comes as DC is looking for more quality control of its big-screen efforts — the studio captured acclaim and box office bonanza with last summer’s “Wonder Woman,” but was savaged by critics for “Suicide Squad” and “Justice League.” There is widespread frustration over DC’s failure to match the popularity of Marvel movies.
> 
> Hamada previously served as a production executive at New Line, a division of Warner Bros. There, he helped shepherd such horror hits as “It” and “The Conjuring” to cinemas. The executive enjoys a close relationship with director James Wan, who is directing “Aquaman” for DC, and is credited with helping expand “The Conjuring” universe by making a well-received sequel to the movie, as well as spinoffs with the “Annabelle” series. He will be leaving New Line to work for Warners, and will also oversee any other types of comic book movies that the studio produces outside of the DC canon.
> 
> Last summer, Warner Bros. named Courtenay Valenti, best known for her work on the Harry Potter films, as president of production at Warner Bros. She will continue in that role, as will DC Entertainment chief Diane Nelson.
> 
> Before coming to New Line, Hamada was a producer and manager with H2F Entertainment. He began his career as an assistant at TriStar and eventually became VP of production for Columbia Pictures. He also ran development for MBST Entertainment.


 source

----------


## Johnny

Really good choice. WB's horror division has been firing on all cylinders. Let's see what happens. I mean, it can't be worse than what we've got so far, right?

----------


## Jokerz79

> An of those 5 films DC already made 3 Billion dollars, something I might add that Marvel didnt do until Avengers, since despite raving reviews from critics their films barely crossed 500M. So no the smart money isnt on pessimism.


Truth is story and editing wise BvS the Theatrical Cut, Suicide Squad, and Justice League were mess and Justice League greatly underperformed and was lucky to break even. So yeah pessimism is the safe bet with the DCEU now it's always better to hope for the best but expect the worse and the worse thing DC and WB can do with these films is listen to any voices who says everything is fine and you've made more money then Marvel did with their first five films which is apple and oranges and a ridiculous comparisons given the DCEU has the 3 most recognized heroes of all time and Marvel was starting off with mostly the B and C characters.

----------


## Agent Z

> Truth is story and editing wise BvS the Theatrical Cut, Suicide Squad, and Justice League were mess and Justice League greatly underperformed and was lucky to break even. So yeah pessimism is the safe bet with the DCEU now it's always better to hope for the best but expect the worse and the worse thing DC and WB can do with these films is listen to any voices who says everything is fine and you've made more money then Marvel did with their first five films which is apple and oranges and a ridiculous comparisons given the DCEU has the 3 most recognized heroes of all time and Marvel was starting off with mostly the B and C characters.


Of those three recognisable heroes, one hadn't been a box office draw since 1980 and the other was untested as a movie property. The audience doesn't give a crap about what is or isn't considered a b or c list character.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Friends? Looks like WB has chosen their "Kevin Feige" for the DCEU. It's Walter Hamada, the dude who oversaw "It" and The Conjuring movies. Now THIS is a guy who knows how to make movies that make big bucks AND get critical praise!

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> *Warner Bros. Taps Walter Hamada to Oversee DC Films Production*
> 
> 
> 
>  source


I like the bit about "quality control". It's what the DCEU need the most.




> Friends? Looks like WB has chosen their "Kevin Feige" for the DCEU. It's Walter Hamada, the dude who oversaw "It" and The Conjuring movies. Now THIS is a guy who knows how to make movies that make big bucks AND get critical praise!


He also oversaw the Nightmare on Elm Street reboot and other mediocre movies.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I like the bit about "quality control". It's what the DCEU need the most.
> 
> 
> 
> He also oversaw the Nightmare on Elm Street reboot and other mediocre movies.


True, but his most recent work has been red-hot, so I'm inclined to hope that he can continue on that trajectory.

----------


## Confuzzled

> True, but his most recent work has been red-hot, so I'm inclined to hope that he can continue on that trajectory.


Especially since James Wan, one of his most successful collaborators, is also involved in the DCEU.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> True, but his most recent work has been red-hot, so I'm inclined to hope that he can continue on that trajectory.


I'm in wait-and-see mode. Still hope for the best and that Kevin Tsujihara doesn't demand some last minute changes to the movies.  :Wink:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Of those three recognisable heroes, one hadn't been a box office draw since 1980 and the other was untested as a movie property. The audience doesn't give a crap about what is or isn't considered a b or c list character.


I'd say the fact that MoS did as well as it did despite the divisive final product is a good indicator that Superman was a box office draw at the time, and the hype surrounding him meeting Batman for the first time on screen was insane. The audiences don't understand the A/B/C list stuff like we do, and wouldn't care if they did, but they know who the big names are and it catches their attention. Whether or not it lives up to their expectations (as BvS and especially JL didn't) is a different discussion. Doesn't mean they won't also readily accept smaller names either, because they have. 

Wonder Woman being an untested property didn't stop the hype for her appearance in BvS and her solo film from being insane either. The final product being universally praised helped. It's because she's a culture icon, not a character only comic nerds have heard of until now.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Leaked JL deleted scene: https://twitter.com/MAHDCi/status/948980595874508801

----------


## Eto

Why would they cut that. Alfred's reaction. Hilarious!

----------


## Bossace

All these leaked deleted scenes make me feel like we will have no extended edition but a beefy deleted/extended scene section, because none of these leaked scenes we’ve seen so far are completed scenes.

----------


## Sirzechs

> Of those three recognisable heroes, one hadn't been a box office draw since 1980 and the other was untested as a movie property. The audience doesn't give a crap about what is or isn't considered a b or c list character.


Ohh no dont say that, DC clearly had mega box office draws with the Trinity, cause Superman returns didnt underperform years before, and Wonder Woman never saw the light of day outside of Carters series, the untested excuse only applies to Marvel and if DC doesnt crack a billion on the first try then its a failure even with C listers in Suicide Squad.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm in wait-and-see mode. Still hope for the best and that Kevin Tsujihara doesn't demand some last minute changes to the movies.


Yeah, there's always that chance! Let's hope not, though.

Also? The guy specializes in horror. Show of hands! Who wants to see him turn Justice League Dark into a legit horror movie? 

*Raises hand*

----------


## stephens2177

> Yeah, there's always that chance! Let's hope not, though.
> 
> Also? The guy specializes in horror. Show of hands! Who wants to see him turn Justice League Dark into a legit horror movie? 
> 
> *Raises hand*


I would like the next JL movie to not be a horror movie,but a superhero movie

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I would like the next JL movie to not be a horror movie,but a superhero movie


Same here. I was talking about the Justice League Dark movie. 

You know? The one that features witches, demons, and ghosts?

----------


## JudasFanny616

The DCEU needs to develop their characters more. Seeing the Justice League movie makes me worry about future League films like JL Dark.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Of those three recognisable heroes, one hadn't been a box office draw since 1980 and the other was untested as a movie property. The audience doesn't give a crap about what is or isn't considered a b or c list character.


Brand recognize means a lot and it's why everyone wants franchises and Marvel didn't have that in Phase 1 given many didn't know those characters. Superman 3 was a hit for it's time making 80 million world wide and was the 12th highest grossing film of 83 in the U.S. and also Superman Returns actually made more than Batman Begins but didn't create the Buzz of the latter and had a higher budget. Superman also had 3 live action TV series since 1980 one running a decade. It's amazing people blame the "Not Muh Superman" crowd for low performances of the DCEU and the audience expectations of the characters and now act like well they weren't that known or popular. It can't be both ways either they were hamstringed by audience expectations and had a disadvantage the MCU films didn't have or they were on equal ground with the MCU with character expectations.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Brand recognize means a lot and it's why everyone wants franchises and Marvel didn't have that in Phase 1 given many didn't know those characters. Superman 3 was a hit for it's time making 80 million world wide and was the 12th highest grossing film of 83 in the U.S. and also Superman Returns actually made more than Batman Begins but didn't create the Buzz of the latter and had a higher budget. Superman also had 3 live action TV series since 1980 one running a decade. It's amazing people blame the "Not Muh Superman" crowd for low performances of the DCEU and the audience expectations of the characters and now act like well they weren't that known or popular. It can't be both ways either they were hamstringed by audience expectations and had a disadvantage the MCU films didn't have or they were on equal ground with the MCU with character expectations.


It should also be noted that Marvel really had to cultivate their brand first before pushing these characters and making them household names. Now they can slap the brand onto any movie the put out and there will be hype for that character regardless of who it is. And really, good for them.

DC/WB never had to do that with Wonder Woman. She wasn't some unknown character nobody in the casual audience hadn't heard of. They didn't need to cultivate a brand with her like Marvel had to before Ant-Man and Dr. Strange, they just had to have her show up.

----------


## Johnny

> Why would they cut that. Alfred's reaction. Hilarious!


Because Kevin Tsujihara is an imbecile.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I like the bit about "quality control". It's what the DCEU need the most.
> 
> 
> 
> He also oversaw the Nightmare on Elm Street reboot and other mediocre movies.


And Kevin Feige produced the Ben Affleck Daredevil, Thomas Jane Punisher, Blade: Trinity, Electra, Spider-Man 3, Both the 00's Fantastic Four movies, X-Men 3... Making good, profitable movies goes far beyond having "the right guy" producing or overseeing the, even if I'm sure it helps.

----------


## Rincewind

> And Kevin Feige produced the Ben Affleck Daredevil, Thomas Jane Punisher, Blade: Trinity, Electra, Spider-Man 3, Both the 00's Fantastic Four movies, X-Men 3... Making good, profitable movies goes far beyond having "the right guy" producing or overseeing the, even if I'm sure it helps.


Not quite.  Feige got either a co-producing credit or executive producer credit for those.  Same as Stan Lee.  All those movies were not made directly by Marvel Studios, but licensed out to other studios/filmmakers.  The producer credits are most likely contractual as part of the film licensing deal.

The MCU movies are really the only ones Feige has directly produced.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Not quite.  Feige got either a co-producing credit or executive producer credit for those.  Same as Stan Lee.  All those movies were not made directly by Marvel Studios, but licensed out to other studios/filmmakers.  The producer credits are most likely contractual as part of the film licensing deal.
> 
> The MCU movies are really the only ones Feige has directly produced.


I might have missed some kind of official clarification of his role on those projects, but generally we just don't know. Credited producers can have absolutely nothing to do with the final product, or be more influential than both the writer and the director. Case to case basis.

----------


## Rincewind

> I might have missed some kind of official clarification of his role on those projects, but generally we just don't know. Credited producers can have absolutely nothing to do with the final product, or be more influential than both the writer and the director. Case to case basis.


Rule of thumb in movies is that the Producer credit is the important one; the others, less so.  

In the movie *State and Main*, one of the recurring jokes is that the cash strapped movie production gives people "associate producer" credits instead of paying them a decent wage.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Snyder won an AFI award for his contribution to WW specifically to "America's Culture Legacy".

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Because Kevin Tsujihara is an imbecile.


Something genuinely funny that doesn't require audio was scrapped for some corny Whedon jokes? I am at a total loss of words, I laughed more watching that than anything from the actual film!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Snyder won an AFI award for his contribution to WW specifically to "America's Culture Legacy".


Guess they didn't get the memo. Don't they know everything positive about the film had zero to do with Snyder?  :Wink:

----------


## jertz666

> Because Kevin Tsujihara is an imbecile.


If you don't see why that scene didn't make the cut, then maybe ,just maybe, you're the imbecile.     Ezra Miller's shenanigans in that scene is cringe-worthy.   Seriously.

----------


## Ascended

> And Kevin Feige produced the Ben Affleck Daredevil, *Thomas Jane Punisher,* Blade: Trinity, Electra, Spider-Man 3, Both the 00's Fantastic Four movies, X-Men 3... Making good, profitable movies goes far beyond having "the right guy" producing or overseeing the, even if I'm sure it helps.


I liked the Jane Punisher movie. 

I mean, its got nothing on the Netflix version, which is beyond excellent, but it wasn't bad at all. Especially given the quality of superhero movies at the time.

----------


## Pinsir

The DCEU won 2017 with one movie and it looks like Aquaman will be another winner. The DCEU cannot be stopped at this point.

----------


## Carabas

> The DCEU won 2017 with one movie and it looks like Aquaman will be another winner. The DCEU cannot be stopped at this point.


It's on life support. And if Aquaman underperforms (and it's still Aquaman, butt of many a joke, so odds of that are realistic), they're pulling the plug, keeping just Wonder Woman.Maybe.

----------


## Frontier

I hope _Aquaman_ does well, for a lot of reasons.

----------


## Johnny

> If you don't see why that scene didn't make the cut, then maybe ,just maybe, you're the imbecile.     Ezra Miller's shenanigans in that scene is cringe-worthy.   Seriously.


Miller doesn't seem more cringe-worthy to me in that scene, than in the rest of the movie. If you don't see why Tsujihara is the one to blame for this movie turning out the way it did, you're useless to talk to.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's on life support. And if Aquaman underperforms (and it's still Aquaman, butt of many a joke, so odds of that are realistic), they're pulling the plug, keeping just Wonder Woman.Maybe.


Fans loved Momoa and they know they're in for some fun action. Also? James Wan has yet to make a bad movie in his entire career. 

Odds for success are a lot stronger than they were just one year ago.

----------


## Pinsir

> It's on life support. And if Aquaman underperforms (and it's still Aquaman, butt of many a joke, so odds of that are realistic), they're pulling the plug, keeping just Wonder Woman.Maybe.


Except any lessons to be learned from Justice League's failure will be overwhelmingly positive for the direction of DC films. Also the idea that Wonder Woman 2 is going to be cancelled because Aquaman may failed is 'Fox should just give back the rights!" level of fantasy.

----------


## golgi

> It's on life support. And if Aquaman underperforms (and it's still Aquaman, butt of many a joke, so odds of that are realistic), they're pulling the plug, keeping just Wonder Woman.Maybe.


Never going to happen.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

I applaud this enthusiasm for something that may very well be dead on arrival given the track record but lets not get ahead of ourselves here. 

Aquaman releases on December 21rst 2018 which is a weekend, but Aquaman has to handle last minute Christmas shoppers and Christmas in-general. Aquaman basically has to fight for attention given where it shows up, which while a weekend is also the last weekend before the biggest holiday of the year. A movie will on average run about 4 weeks and one week is stunted off the bat by an opening before a major holiday, and that Monday and Tuesday is that holiday. What's more is that Aquaman is spawning from a movie that financially was not viable because audiences tuned out. Bottom line, audiences didn't care.
On the topic of competition, Marvel and Disney seem to be focusing more on the summer than they are with anything in the winter. Here's the problem; marketing is going to be focusing on this year as a result because they have a full year to milk Han Solo, the biggest team-up ever, Black Panther, and whatever new franchises they launch. Up to Halloween you have Marvel pushing products and Aquaman doesn't even release until two months later. 

But Aquaman could just push products early? Perhaps, but it runs the risk of spoiling the production and if your audience knows enough about a project then why see it? Basically Aquaman will end up spilling over into the next year meaning it's big launch to get people on-board if they weren't with Justice League is to be fantastic enough it breaks the Christmas death-grip. It has a 160 million dollar budget projected so it shouldn't be that bad, but if half of its time falters like it is likely to do having a release window like that then it puts the cinematic universe in jeopardy if not Wonder woman.  

All things considered it may be wise to fear for Aquaman's reception given how these productions tend to go.

----------


## Robotman

At this point I just can’t imagine Aquaman generating a ton of excitement with the general public. After the emphatic “meh” that Justice League was given right from the get go. Even after a pretty popular Comic Con trailer, there just wasn’t excitement and positive buzz as the opening weekend neared. I’m just worried that Aquaman will be brought down by the Justice League stigma the same way the Justice League was hampered by BvS. I like Jason Momoa and I enjoyed him as Aquaman but he and the film have a huge up hill climb. And as SuperiorIronman stated, December 21st is a rough release date. 
The only way this movie makes money is if it gets fantastic reviews before the release. Luckily, James Wan is a very good director so here’s hoping he can pull this off. Wonder Woman had good reviews before its release but I don’t think you can compare the two. Wonder Woman has rabid fans who had been waiting generations to see her in a solo adventure on the big screen. Aquaman is still considered a joke to the average non-comic book reading person.

----------


## Carabas

> Fans loved Momoa and they know they're in for some fun action. Also? James Wan has yet to make a bad movie in his entire career. 
> 
> Odds for success are a lot stronger than they were just one year ago.


Wan tends to make very well received smaller movies that  are massively successful for their budget. With one exception: Furious 7.

And I love Momoa in pretty much everything he's been in, but almost everything he's  been in was a financial failure.




> Except any lessons to be learned from Justice League's failure will be overwhelmingly positive for the direction of DC films. Also the idea that Wonder Woman 2 is going to be cancelled because Aquaman may failed is 'Fox should just give back the rights!" level of fantasy.


I said Wonder Woman is probably safe as houses. *looks back*Okay, could have worded that better. My bad. But I was  more talking about Wonder Woman 3+ anyway.

I do suspect that now she's a proven money maker, WB will be a lot more hands on during production of Wonder woman 2, which is rarely a good thing.

----------


## Robotman

So I just realized that Aquaman’s release date is the same as the Transformers spinoff Bumblebee. I don’t think Bumblebee will be very profitable but still it’s going to cut into Aquaman’s opening weekend. What the hell is WB thinking? One of the studios needs to change the release date if they want either film to turn a profit.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

I wasn't even thinking about Bumblebee but then you have Spider-man a week before cutting into sales. 

All DC movies tend to do pretty similarly (around the 400,000,000 range) in foreign markets, but Transformers while not popular here, is 400 million to 800 million dollars popular there. The foreign market is not sick of shape-shifting robots like we are and so regardless of what happens in the States, Aquaman's largest battle is going to be a worldwide Christmas release against established competition releasing the same day. What is WB thinking? God help them when it comes to marketing, Transformers is viable year-round.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> So I just realized that Aquaman’s release date is the same as the Transformers spinoff Bumblebee. I don’t think Bumblebee will be very profitable but still it’s going to cut into Aquaman’s opening weekend. What the hell is WB thinking? One of the studios needs to change the release date if they want either film to turn a profit.


They have to put the movie up against something, might as well be a spinoff from a franchise generally perceived to be on the same downward slope as the DCEU.

----------


## Gaastra

> I wasn't even thinking about Bumblebee but then you have Spider-man a week before cutting into sales.




Mortal Engines is out the week before and mary poppins 2 and the queen movie is the week after.  Plus they are saying Disney is thinking of moving the star wars solo to dec as well!  Wreck it ralph 2 is out two weeks before aquaman also and fantastic beasts 2 the week before that!  This better be a really good movie to beat wreck it ralph, mary poppins and a harry potter spinoff!

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/schedul...weeks=4&p=.htm

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Release date for AM worries me. December is unknown for CBM plus near Xmas and that last CBM of an already stacked year. That said I can see it not opening fantastic but may have good legs if WoM is strong as January generally a dump month so could do decent over a month.

----------


## Confuzzled

Remember when everyone was worried about Wonder Woman's release date but then when Summer 2017 arrived, it turned out every other film had to worry about Wonder Woman instead?  :Big Grin: 

Aquaman will be fine. It's in a December with no Star Wars movie. It can coexist with Mary Poppins 2. Bumblebee is going to be average even if it is much better than the Transformers movies. Into the Spider-Verse is animation and so far animations based on superhero properties that are also present in live action aren't mammoth money makers. Mortal Engines seems too blah to break out.

----------


## Gaastra

> Aquaman will be fine. It's in a December with no Star Wars movie.


http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/01/...christmas-2018

It may be pushed to Dec 13th.





> Bumblebee is going to be average even if it is much better than the Transformers movies. Into the Spider-Verse is animation and so far animations based on superhero properties that are also present in live action aren't mammoth money makers. Mortal Engines seems too blah to break out.


What about the harry potter spinoff, wreck it ralph 2, mary poppins 2 and the queen movie?  Bumblebee by the way is getting made by the guy who did Kubo and the two strings so it might be good plus bee is a VW bug again!

----------


## Confuzzled

> http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/01/...christmas-2018
> 
> It may be pushed to Dec 13th.


Yeah, that's been floating around for some time. But I don't think it will be moved to December as that puts it too close to Mary Poppins which I'm sure Disney hopes is a big hit. Maybe August is my bet.





> What about the harry potter spinoff, wreck it ralph 2, mary poppins 2 and the queen movie?  Bumblebee by the way is getting made by the guy who did Kubo and the two strings so it might be good plus bee is a VW bug again!


Fantastic Beasts and Wreck-It Ralph will be in theatres for more than a month when Aquaman arrives. As I said, Mary Poppins and Aquaman can coexist like how Star Wars and Jumanji are currently coexisting. What is this queen movie?  

Bumblebee could be good but it has the undesirable job of earning back all the goodwill Transformers films lost over the years, so it may not be a smash instantly. Of course, one could argue same is the case for Aquaman too with Justice League and other DCEU films but the expectations are that Aquaman's marketing will be exciting as it has been rumored as "Star Wars underwater" and get people talking. And that reviews will hopefully favour James Wan's film.

----------


## Johnny

Meh, our boy Arthur has been fighting against adversity and ridicule his entire existence, he's gonna whup those bozos all over the place.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Gaastra

> What is this queen movie?


Movie based on the band queen.  Script got a lot of buzz however it hit a big snag. 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...d-queen-biopic

Aquaman has tough sailing (sorry for the pun) but a great trailer and film would help it.

----------


## Elmo

Bumblebee is going to be very good since it takes place in the 80s and banking on 80s Transformers nostalgia. However people are getting pretty tired of Transformers and Bumblebee doesn't have as much star power as execs think despite being popular in the first Transformers film.

Into the Spider Verse will be wildly successful but since it's animated and Aquaman is more of a mature film there will be different demographics

The Freddie Mercury movie will flop...of course Rami Malek is incredible and he'll smash it but nobody cares about a Queen biopic no offense to their fans

----------


## Buried Alien

> The Freddie Mercury movie will flop...of course Rami Malek is incredible and he'll smash it but nobody cares about a Queen biopic no offense to their fans


Aside from whether the acting, directing, and scriptwriting are good, what will determine the movie's success or failure is whether the story of Queen's rise and fall as a band, apart from the great music they produced, is a compelling story in of itself.  I was once skeptical that RAY, the biopic of Ray Charles, would experience any success, but that movie became eminently successful.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Justice League (Slightly) Extended Cut Possibly Confirmed:* https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...snyder-amazon/

----------


## Pinsir

> So I just realized that Aquamans release date is the same as the Transformers spinoff Bumblebee. I dont think Bumblebee will be very profitable but still its going to cut into Aquamans opening weekend. What the hell is WB thinking? One of the studios needs to change the release date if they want either film to turn a profit.


We heard the same rhetoric with Wonder Woman and Transformers 5 got slaughtered.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> We heard the same rhetoric with Wonder Woman and Transformers 5 got slaughtered.


Also Toy Story 4 was going to kill Wonder Woman and then Toy Story 4 never even got released. So maybe one of those other movie won't be released by the time Aquaman is released.

----------


## Robotman

> We heard the same rhetoric with Wonder Woman and Transformers 5 got slaughtered.


Transformers didn't open on the same day as Wonder Woman. 




> Aside from whether the acting, directing, and scriptwriting are good, what will determine the movie's success or failure is whether the story of Queen's rise and fall as a band, apart from the great music they produced, is a compelling story in of itself.  I was once skeptical that RAY, the biopic of Ray Charles, would experience any success, but that movie became eminently successful.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


i'm huge fan of Queen so i should be more excited about this flick than i am. this movie has been gestating for years. i think i lost hope in the project when Sasha Baron Cohen dropped out. he was set to play Freddie Mercury but had a disagreement with the actual band members. Sasha wanted to tell a very accurate story showing Queen warts and all. apparently Brian May was uncomfortable with that. i think the band members wanted just the positive stuff to be shown. basically a PG-13 movie and not a R. if they're doing a story about Freddie's life it should probably be rated R. the guy lived a crazy rock star life.

----------


## Bossace

> *Justice League (Slightly) Extended Cut Possibly Confirmed:* https://screenrant.com/justice-leagu...snyder-amazon/


I think many of us were hoping for more than 15 minutes but in a way it makes sense. Much of the leaked footage we saw was never fully completed and we know they’re not going to sink even more money into this movie by finishing CGI work on deleted scenes or an extended edition.

----------


## Jokerz79

I know a lot of people excited for Bumblebee because one he's the most likable character, the lead actress Hailee Steinfeld is talented, the nostalgia for the 80's setting, and the biggest draw Bay isn't directing.

----------


## Jokerz79

> We heard the same rhetoric with Wonder Woman and Transformers 5 got slaughtered.


Transformers 5 was released weeks after Wonder Woman after she already lost the top stop to Cars 3 and then the following weekend when Transformers opened it was number 1 with WW at number 2 and Cars 3 in third place.

----------


## JudasFanny616

> I think many of us were hoping for more than 15 minutes but in a way it makes sense. Much of the leaked footage we saw was never fully completed and we know they’re not going to sink even more money into this movie by finishing CGI work on deleted scenes or an extended edition.


Not sure if adding 15 mins. can make the overall movie experience any better.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> We heard the same rhetoric with Wonder Woman and Transformers 5 got slaughtered.


I don't think Transformers 5 having been slaughtered is terribly accurate when you consider that in foreign markets the trend of a 400 million baseline was never broken. It clearly did not fare well in the United States and Canada, but it clearly has an audience in the foreign markets.
Transformers 5 however fared about as well as Justice League and on a smaller budget at that. Where Justice League ultimately made more money, that's only a 50 million dollar difference and in the grand-scheme of things, Justice League still lost money. 

Wonder Woman was on a different level because she was the big highlight of BVS with a built-in fanbase that already had years of pop-culture exposure, and it was a female led superhero film which turned out to be good for once. When Wonder Woman released it had the makings of a positive reception because it was also the first good DCEU film. Aquaman carries none of that, or at least to the extent of the Trinity. It's an uphill battle considering Aquaman didn't even get the same positive reception as his more successful counterpart.

----------


## Soubhagya

> *Warner Bros. Taps Walter Hamada to Oversee DC Films Production*
> 
> 
> 
>  source


Appears to me as good news. WB is at least showing that they are serious. What they need is now let him do his thing. This might turn out to be good.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't think Transformers 5 having been slaughtered is terribly accurate when you consider that in foreign markets the trend of a 400 million baseline was never broken.


Considering the last Transformers film made about 800 million overseas, a fall to basically half of that number is a slaughter in foreign markets too. 




> Aquaman carries none of that, or at least to the extent of the Trinity. It's an uphill battle considering Aquaman didn't even get the same positive reception as his more successful counterpart.


OTOH Aquaman is supposedly going to have breathtaking underwater visuals that _Wonder Woman_ did not have. And he was voted as the #2 Most Anticipated Superhero of 2018 just after Black Panther in Fandango's yearly poll, so it shows people did like him in Justice League. Not to mention if the movie is a hit then both Aquaman and Mary Poppins not just have December, but also January to make a lot of money (as nothing big releases in January).

----------


## Carabas

> OTOH Aquaman is supposedly going to have breathtaking underwater visuals that _Wonder Woman_ did not have.


Underwater anything has not exactly a big selling point for movies in the past. And it's usually very expensive.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Underwater anything has not exactly a big selling point for movies in the past.


Finding Nemo? And isn't that supposed to be the main hook of _Avatar 2_ as well?




> And it's usually very expensive.


Depends. They shot mostly in Australia so they'll receive tax rebates.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Finding Nemo? And isn't that supposed to be the main hook of _Avatar 2_ as well?


Finding Nemo was a cartoon that basically looked like any other cartoon that took place on dry land. You could substitute birds or airplanes for fish and you'd get the same feel.

No one knows how well the Avatar sequels will do.   What made the first Avatar a hit was the groundbreaking 3D effects and the light show of CGI aspect of it. People had never
seen anything quite like that before. The story itself was pretty weak and just a retread of any number of noble savage westerns of decades before.  By now 3D and fantastic GCI 
are been there, done that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Finding Nemo was a cartoon that basically looked like any other cartoon that took place on dry land.


Show me one that had the same scenery as the underwater vistas as Nemo? Finding Dory and The Little Mermaid don't count.




> You could substitute birds or airplanes for fish and you'd get the same feel.


Well I didn't say _fish_ was the main pull for Aquaman  :Stick Out Tongue:  Though talented visual directors and marketers can make anything look and feel super exciting and fun.




> No one knows how well the Avatar sequels will do.   What made the first Avatar a hit was the groundbreaking 3D effects and the light show of CGI aspect of it. People had never
> seen anything quite like that before. The story itself was pretty weak and just a retread of any number of noble savage westerns of decades before.  By now 3D and fantastic GCI 
> are been there, done that.


Lol Avatar sequels will be huge, especially with the billion dollar Mouse House marketing arm pushing it.

Anyway, unless the visuals are just flat and unimpressive, a superhero/royal intrigue action adventure fantasy like _Aquaman_ taking place in the mesmerising underwater world should get people talking. We'll know what the film can deliver when the first trailer drops.

----------


## Carabas

> Finding Nemo? And isn't that supposed to be the main hook of _Avatar 2_ as well?


Cartoons about fishes are different.
And I have never been tempted to watch even the first Avatar.




> Depends. They shot mostly in Australia so they'll receive tax rebates.


Should still be more expensive than shooting not underwater in Australia.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Cartoons about fishes are different.


Isn't that what the criticisms about superhero blockbusters are from people like Jodie Foster? That they are basically becoming theme park rides/flashy cartoons. Doesn't stop them from making money.




> And I have never been tempted to watch even the first Avatar.


James Cameron wipes a tear with one of the notes from the 3 billion or whatever ridiculous amount that film made.




> Should still be more expensive than shooting not underwater in Australia.


?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Show me one that had the same scenery as the underwater vistas as Nemo? Finding Dory and The Little Mermaid don't count.


Bambi,  Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs, Cinderella, The Jungle Book, Alice in Wonderland. All have as rich and elaborate scenery above ground as Finding Nemo did under the water.




> Well I didn't say _fish_ was the main pull for Aquaman  Though talented visual directors and marketers can make anything look and feel super exciting and fun.


You misunderstood. What I meant in the fish couldn't do anything in Finding Nemo that a bird or an airplane couldn't do.  The fish swim around in three dimensions, the birds and airplanes fly around in three dimensions.
The animated movie Planes was a good example of that.  I didn't say someone couldn't do underwater live action that was good.  I just felt using a cartoon or a movie that hasn't even been released yet as examples
of what could be done wasn't a good example.  Supergirl did some scenes with Supergirl swimming underwater in the first episode this season of Supergirl that looked pretty good and actually looked like Supergirl
was underwater.   With a big budget movie like Aquaman I would expect something that looks even better than that.

----------


## Carabas

> Isn't that what the criticisms about superhero blockbusters are from people like Jodie Foster? That they are basically becoming theme park rides/flashy cartoons. Doesn't stop them from making money.


I don't see where you're getting that from.

And underwater movies are not really a big money-making thing.

----------


## Robotman

Did Tan say that there won’t be underwater dialogue in Aquaman? So do the Atlantians speak in sign language? If the speaking underwater is an issue just given them telepathy but maybe only between Atlantians.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Did Tan say that there won’t be underwater dialogue in Aquaman? So do the Atlantians speak in sign language? If the speaking underwater is an issue just given them telepathy but maybe only between Atlantians.


Exact opposite, in fact. He said there IS underwater dialogue. I'm very curious to see how he handles it.

All we know for certain is he said that the underwater dialogue won't be like the undewater dialogue in Justice League, with Arthur and Mera conversing within an air bubble Mera created.

----------


## Jokerz79

Phantom Menace is almost my least liked Star Wars live action theatrical film only above Attack of the Clones. But the one thing I'll give that film is the Gungan City might be the best representation of an underwater city. It looked amazing and the force fields keeping the water out, I'll admit explaining how people speak in water and the look of the city are the most concerning to me. Because a submerged city would need protection from the Salt Water to look good IMO and I really do want Atlantis to look amazing.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't see where you're getting that from.
> 
> And underwater movies are not really a big money-making thing.


Regarding Foster's comments, VFX heavy superhero blockbusters basically equal cartoons and Disney theme park rides is what I think she meant. That it was more flash, spectacle and CG, less "humanism". 

As for "underwater" genre so far, there has been a grand total of what, 7? And that's counting the successes like _Finding_ films, _Shark Tale_, _The Little Mermaid_ and that _47 Meters Down_ film last year.

Aquaman puts superheroes and flashy battles in that world and is directed by the _Fast 7_ director. On paper, that's a homerun. First trailer will give us an idea of whether they have actually pulled it off.

----------


## liwanag

> Exact opposite, in fact. He said there IS underwater dialogue. I'm very curious to see how he handles it.
> 
> All we know for certain is he said that the underwater dialogue won't be like the undewater dialogue in Justice League, with Arthur and Mera conversing within an air bubble Mera created.


i wonder how the underwater scenes would be like... will it be like the abyss... hopefully it won't be like the air bubble mera made in justice league.

----------


## Johnny

https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-...e-kroll-steps/

And Tsujihara's stupid ass is out!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-...e-kroll-steps/
> 
> And Tsujihara's stupid ass is out!


Yes! Combine that with Hamada becoming the Feige of the DCEU, and I'd say things are looking up!

----------


## Gaastra

> Yes! Combine that with Hamada becoming the Feige of the DCEU, and I'd say things are looking up!



Yup the guy who did the Friday the 13th and nightmare on elm street remakes is in charge. 

Well at least he got better with the it remake.  Has this guy done anything that's not a scary movie?  I know he did 47 ronin.  Any of his non scary movie stuff good?  Anyone seen them?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yup the guy who did the Friday the 13th and nightmare on elm street remakes is in charge. 
> 
> Well at least he got better with the it remake.  Has this guy done anything that's not a scary movie?  I know he did 47 ronin.  Any of his non scary movie stuff good?  Anyone seen them?


I don't know if he has done anything that isn't scary. 

And he's been on a real roll recently, so I'm more than willing to look past a few bad remakes. The mere fact that they were remakes means it was almost impossible for them to measure up to their predecessors. It's definitely to his credit that he presided over one of the few remakes that HAS managed to measure up or possibly even surpass it's predecessor. 

One important thing? The next two DCEU films coming out are both directed by directors with whom Hamada has worked (with great success) in recent memory.

----------


## Gaastra

Still with his hit scary movies it might be a good idea for him to look into justice league dark, swamp thing or the demon.  Bet he could make them into great movies.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Still with his hit scary movies it might be a good idea for him to look into justice league dark, swamp thing or the demon.  Bet he good made them into great movies.


I'm definitely hoping he'll green light Justice League Dark ASAP, and definitely hope he'll let it be a fully legit horror movie.

----------


## Jokerz79

I want a MOS 2 but IMO outside of WW they should concentrate on films not directly connected to the League like Dark maybe even name it something different, Shazam and other projects and once they see how Aquaman does then decided the future of the Justice League franchise and what direction should they do.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I want a MOS 2 but IMO outside of WW they should concentrate on films not directly connected to the League like Dark maybe even name it something different, Shazam and other projects and once they see how Aquaman does then decided the future of the Justice League franchise and what direction should they do.


I've never been a fan of the Justice League Dark bame, so I'd be fine with calling it something else. Heck, I'd go so far as to say I'd PREFER it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Zachary Levi wants Wonder Woman to cameo in Shazam!

http://www.superherohype.com/news/41...ameo-in-shazam

Definitely like where his head's at!  :Smile:

----------


## Gaastra

And WB insulted the aquaman movie themselves in the teen titans go to the movies trailer. (wonder woman gets picked on also.)

----------


## Vanguard-01

> And WB insulted the aquaman movie themselves in the teen titans go to the movies trailer. (wonder woman gets picked on also.)


Yeah I'm pretty sure that.....show......could get away with accusing the CEO of Warner Brothers of being a pedophile even in this current cultural climate. 

Means nothing.

Anyone else remember how they got to devote an entire episode to crapping all over Young Justice?

----------


## Punisher007

> I don't know if he has done anything that isn't scary. 
> 
> And he's been on a real roll recently, so I'm more than willing to look past a few bad remakes. The mere fact that they were remakes means it was almost impossible for them to measure up to their predecessors. It's definitely to his credit that he presided over one of the few remakes that HAS managed to measure up or possibly even surpass it's predecessor. 
> 
> One important thing? The next two DCEU films coming out are both directed by directors with whom Hamada has worked (with great success) in recent memory.


Also the F13th remake was decent (although the Elm Street one was BAD)!!

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> And WB insulted the aquaman movie themselves in the teen titans go to the movies trailer. (wonder woman gets picked on also.)


I only ask one question; Why? Not why make fun of their own products, but why was this the incarnation of the Teen Titans that gets exposed to the mass audience? I feel like I'm missing something.

----------


## ayanestar

> I only ask one question; Why? Not why make fun of their own products, but why was this the incarnation of the Teen Titans that gets exposed to the mass audience? I feel like I'm missing something.


It's obviously making money I mean I could be wrong but I know that my little sister loves this show lol I actually have to watch clips of it with her on YT almost on a daily basis.

----------


## Gaastra

> It's obviously making money I mean I could be wrong but I know that my little sister loves this show lol I actually have to watch clips of it with her on YT almost on a daily basis.


My nephews love the show.  I think it's dumb myself but it's aimed at kids and i'm fine with it.  I'm not fine with them airing it 40 times a day however.   Funny thing is this show is a copy of a anime spinoff of the series haruhi suzumiya who after the series ended did a spoof cartoon with them in chibi form and made fun of the original show and it's fans and changed how everyone acted for fun and had the voices from the original show return to do the voices.  Go more or less took everything from that show.



Back on the movies, midnight edge says this is a good move for WB.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Back on the movies, midnight edge says this is a good move for WB.


He is incorrect about Geoff Johns being demoted though.  Geoff Johns keeps his current job.  The only difference is now Hamada is co-president instead of Berg.

"Johns *remains* at DC as a president and chief creative officer, but his portfolio doesn’t just involve film. He will continue to provide creative guidance into the company’s television and comic book efforts. 
In an official announcement of Hamada’s hire, Warner Bros. said Johns will “work closely” with the new production president."

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/wa...ve-1202652878/

----------


## Clark_Kent

> He is incorrect about Geoff Johns being demoted though.  Geoff Johns keeps his current job.  The only difference is now Hamada is co-president instead of Berg.
> 
> "Johns *remains* at DC as a president and chief creative officer, but his portfolio doesn’t just involve film. He will continue to provide creative guidance into the company’s television and comic book efforts. 
> In an official announcement of Hamada’s hire, Warner Bros. said Johns will “work closely” with the new production president."
> 
> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/wa...ve-1202652878/


DC doesn't make movies, WB does. Johns keeps his titles at DC because there's no reason to demote him there. But moving to a consultant position on the WB films side is definitely a demotion, compared to what he was doing a few months ago.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> DC doesn't make movies, WB does. Johns keeps his titles at DC because there's no reason to demote him there. But moving to a consultant position on the WB films side is definitely a demotion, compared to what he was doing a few months ago.


Actually DC Films does make movies.  If you look at the credits you will see DC Films.  For example for the production companies of Justice League it lists:
*
DC Films*
RatPac Entertainment
Atlas Entertainment
Cruel and Unusual Films

Likewise for Wonder Woman:

RatPac-Dune Entertainment
*DC Films*
Tencent Pictures
Wanda Pictures
Atlas Entertainment
Cruel and Unusual Films

And Geoff Johns is co-president of DC Films. Warner Bros. Pictures is just the distributor.

----------


## Johnny

> DC doesn't make movies, WB does. Johns keeps his titles at DC because there's no reason to demote him there. But moving to a consultant position on the WB films side is definitely a demotion, compared to what he was doing a few months ago.


He's not a "consultant", he's still co-running the movie division. Newsarama confirmed it: https://www.newsarama.com/38045-geof...s-co-head.html

----------


## Sirzechs

> I only ask one question; Why? Not why make fun of their own products, but why was this the incarnation of the Teen Titans that gets exposed to the mass audience? I feel like I'm missing something.


Because its parody, its not meant to be taken seriously

----------


## Lightning Rider

*Justice League Stunt Double Says A Zack Snyder Cut Was Made
*
https://www.cinemablend.com/news/195...r-cut-was-made

----------


## dietrich

> I only ask one question; Why? Not why make fun of their own products, but why was this the incarnation of the Teen Titans that gets exposed to the mass audience? I feel like I'm missing something.


It make serious money and has a hold on a very important and lucrative target market. Kids

----------


## Carabas

> I only ask one question; Why? Not why make fun of their own products, but why was this the incarnation of the Teen Titans that gets exposed to the mass audience? I feel like I'm missing something.


It's a 91 second teaser and it's already eclipsed the entire DCEU (except Wonder Woman) in entertainment value.

Also, there's supposed to be a live action show incoming some time soonish.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/su...ca-1202645015/

Michael De Luca has signed on to produce _Suicide Squad 2_.

On the one hand, his credits as produced include acclaimed films such as _The Social Network_.

On the other hand, it also includes the _Fifty Shades_ movies and _Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance_.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Johnny

It's funny, they said they would try to have "less cooks", yet this report says every movie could have its own producer. What's the point of Walter Hamada and Geoff Johns then. Obviously consistency or continuity won't mean all that much anymore.

----------


## ross61

> It's funny, they said they would try to have "less cooks", yet this report says every movie could have its own producer. What's the point of Walter Hamada and Geoff Johns then. Obviously consistency or continuity won't mean all that much anymore.


They already said they were gonna focus less on continuity and more on making the films stand on their on.

The point of Geoff and Hamada are green lighting and working with every director to make sure the film comes out good and keep in line with DC’s values.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Mark Strong (Doctor Sivana) spills on Shazam! secrecy*: http://www.contactmusic.net/mark-str...ecrecy_5955962

----------


## Robotman

Mark Strong looks way more like Lex Luthor than the person they currently have playing Lex. If they’re going with Johns’ version it may mean that he’s going to transform into the classic looking Sivana as the movie goes on. Does that mean that Sivana will eventually be a cgi character? I think Jackie Earl Hayley would have been perfect for Sivana.

----------


## Frontier

> Mark Strong looks way more like Lex Luthor than the person they currently have playing Lex. If they’re going with Johns’ version it may mean that he’s going to transform into the classic looking Sivana as the movie goes on. Does that mean that Sivana will eventually be a cgi character? I think Jackie Earl Hayley would have been perfect for Sivana.


Or Strong will have to really hunch over and pitch his voice  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Blind Wedjat

Part of Mark Strong's comments are making me think WB/DC haven't learnt anything

----------


## Robotman

> *Mark Strong (Doctor Sivana) spills on Shazam! secrecy*: http://www.contactmusic.net/mark-str...ecrecy_5955962


He shared: ''I've been training like a mad man, I'm about to go over and see the stunt guys, I've been trying all of these harnesses on and I think I'm going to be doing lots of flying around and firing electricity out of my hands.''

Son of a bitch.
Sivana flying around shooting electricity. Lost a bit of hope for this movie.

----------


## Frontier

Sivana with powers? Are they trying to make up for not being able to use Black Adam  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## maxmcco

> He shared: ''I've been training like a mad man, I'm about to go over and see the stunt guys, I've been trying all of these harnesses on and I think I'm going to be doing lots of flying around and firing electricity out of my hands.''
> 
> Son of a bitch.
> Sivana flying around shooting electricity. Lost a bit of hope for this movie.


This was a thing. 

21327-3114-23780-1-dc-comics-presents-a.jpg

s-l225.jpg

fc8f3ea7bc41d98c851d7e90a0924763--cheese-dashboards.jpg

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> This was a thing. 
> 
> 21327-3114-23780-1-dc-comics-presents-a.jpg
> 
> s-l225.jpg
> 
> fc8f3ea7bc41d98c851d7e90a0924763--cheese-dashboards.jpg


I'm aware it was a thing but I'm afraid of redundancy

----------


## Confuzzled

> Part of Mark Strong's comments are making me think WB/DC haven't learnt anything


Which part?

----------


## maxmcco

> I'm aware it was a thing but I'm afraid of redundancy


I hear where you're coming from. But the idea was used very sparingly at the end of Thunderworld by Grant Morrison which ended up being one of the best Captain Marvel stories ever put out by DC.

Black_Sivana_(Earth_5)_001.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Which part?


I think the "Sivana shooting lightning" part  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> I hear where you're coming from. But the idea was used very sparingly at the end of Thunderworld by Grant Morrison which ended up being one of the best Captain Marvel stories ever put out by DC.
> 
> Black_Sivana_(Earth_5)_001.jpg


That's at least nice to hear. I just thought it'll be a bit more interesting if they fully went with mad scientist, businessman and master strategist Dr Sivana, but Mark Strong is great and he's killed all the roles I've seen him in. Hopefully we get a good villain out of him.




> Which part?





> I think the "Sivana shooting lightning" part .


Yea it's that part

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*SHAZAM Character Breakdowns Tease More Villains And A Possible BLACK ADAM Cameo Appearance:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/shaza...arance-a157043

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> *SHAZAM Character Breakdowns Tease More Villains And A Possible BLACK ADAM Cameo Appearance:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/shaza...arance-a157043


https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...13279211982854

These breakdowns have been confirmed "false" by the Director.

----------


## Johnny

Interesting. "That Hashtag Show" has had a rather decent track record when it comes to character breakdowns. Oh well, kudos to Sandberg for debunking this garbage.

----------


## Thomas Crown

The official site for the "Snyder Cut" campaign is finally online.

http://www.forsnydercut.com/

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Flash Standalone Film Taps Directors John Francis Daley, Jonathan Goldstein* 




> Vacation helmers John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein are in negotiations to direct Flashpoint, the Flash standalone movie starring Ezra Miller.
> 
> Warner Bros. had no comment.
> 
> The studio had initially courted Ben Affleck to return to the directors chair, but he passed on the gig. By tapping Daley and Goldstein, the studio seems to eye a comedic tone for the film, given the duos directing background on movies like Vacation and the upcoming Game Night, starring Jason Bateman.
> 
> The two are no strangers to the comic-book world, having penned the script to the smash hit Spider-Man: Homecoming, which they were also on the shortlist to direct.
> 
> Flashpoint had been on hold since director Rick Famuyiwa stepped away from the project. While looking for his replacement, the studio decided to take the script in a different direction. Joby Harold has turned in a new draft after a page-one rewrite.
> ...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

So, "Flashpoint" will be a comedy?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Johnny

"Comedic tone" for a story like Flashpoint?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> "Comedic tone" for a story like Flashpoint?


Thomas Wayne Batman is going to make quips all the time.  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

It'd be nice if they could finally nail down a director at least. 

But adapting Flashpoint with the new direction and tone they seemed to be moving towards was always going to be weird. It is not a very happy and sunny story. 

Even the TV version ended with Barry helping Thawne kill his mother and then basically screwing over the lives of everyone he cared about for basically the entire season.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

For goodness sake their Homecoming script was rewritten by the director. Doesn't sound good.

----------


## Jokerz79

They directed Vacation  :Frown:  Well not pleased with this.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Hey look on the bright side at least these are some directors who probably won't be leaving cause of creative differences.  :Big Grin:   :Cool:

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> "Comedic tone" for a story like Flashpoint?


Flashpoint is most likely not going to be adapted faithfully anyway. It's very likely that they'll  change the film to just a normal solo Flash film now with some DC characters cameoing because there's no way going back to the darker direction that was thing back when Snyder was still involved-- that era is over.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It'd be nice if they could finally nail down a director at least. 
> 
> But adapting Flashpoint with the new direction and tone they seemed to be moving towards was always going to be weird. It is not a very happy and sunny story. 
> 
> Even the TV version ended with Barry helping Thawne kill his mother and then basically screwing over the lives of everyone he cared about for basically the entire season.


I heard a rumor about this earlier.  At least Goldstein wrote Spiderman Homecoming.  I can't say this choice isn't a let down when you consider the names that were being thrown in 2017.   





> They directed Vacation  Well not pleased with this.


Why does it seem like getting a strong director is less of a priority for the Flash movie?  I wasn't even all that pleased about Famuyiwa when he was announced.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Flashpoint is most likely not going to be adapted faithfully anyway. It's very likely that it'll  change the film to just a normal solo Flash film now.


I'm inclined to believe this as well with this announcement/rumor.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Yeah, I'm not sure how crazy I am about this. I'm ready, willing, and able to be pleasantly surprised, but my initial reaction is less than ideal.

----------


## SmokeMonster

At least this gives me hope that they might be aiming for a more light-hearted, less overly grimdark version of Flashpoint.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

To folks who are a bit antsy about this choice just remember the Russo brothers pre-Winter Soldier didn't have exactly the most spectacular of resumes.  Their   last directing gig prior WS was_ You, Me and Dupree_ of all things and they weren't picked because of their  feature film work they were picked(along with being cheap) because of their work on _Community_. Warners wouldn't have picked them if they didn't see something in them that was promising. Personally I would've much preferred Lord and Miller but these guys aren't egregious choices by the shot. It could be _worse_ it could be...McG or Micheal Bay.  However these guys have never directed something of this scale before, I mean even Seth Grahime Smith at least directed a couple television shows. This looks more an Alex Kurtzman-esque  hiring if anything.

----------


## Jokerz79

> To folks who are a bit antsy about this choice just remember the Russo brothers pre-Winter Soldier didn't have exactly the most spectacular of resumes.  Their   last directing gig prior WS was_ You, Me and Dupree_ of all things and they weren't picked because of their  feature film work they were picked(along with being cheap) because of their work on _Community_. Warners wouldn't have picked them if they didn't see something in them that was promising. Personally I would've much preferred Lord and Miller but these guys aren't egregious choices by the shot. It could be _worse_ it could be...McG or Micheal Bay.  However these guys have never directed something of this scale before, I mean even Seth Grahime Smith at least directed a couple television shows. This looks more an Alex Kurtzman-esque  hiring if anything.


It's not them doing comedy in the past that scares me it's the comedy they did.

----------


## golgi

Still in talks, not confirmed yet. I'll take the wait and see approach.

----------


## Lightning Rider

There are few things I hate more than associating the Flash with tragedy and comic relief. They're going for two birds with one stone it looks like. I won't pout yet but I don't like what I'm hearing.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> It's not them doing comedy in the past that scares me it's the comedy they did.


If Game Night sucks... I will be officially worried.  Game Night looks like it has a very similar tone to Horrible Bosses.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> At least this gives me hope that they might be aiming for a more light-hearted, less overly grimdark version of Flashpoint.


This. But I don't know if I'm hopeful about it because Flashpoint is supposed to be pretty dark. I am hopeful, though, because Homecoming was successful.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> This. But I don't know if I'm hopeful about it because Flashpoint is supposed to be pretty dark. I am hopeful, though, because Homecoming was successful.


Homecoming is basically the only thing that makes this announcement a hopeful one.  Why does the Flash movie keep getting the weakest director choices?!  I don't understand.

----------


## Jekyll

While the Flash is my favorite character, this movie has been a disaster from the start. With the recent announcements for Flashpoint (which is a story I hate in the first place) nothing leaves me to think this movie is salvageable.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Movie looks doomed to fail and with no original ideas, we will see if they don’t leave like the previous because they haven’t even got to filming so it would be foolish looking at the history of this project to feel secure

----------


## Clark_Kent

Attachment 60818


Walmart exclusive, with pins (March 13th, I think). Interesting that it says "includes a bonus scene not seen in theaters"...WW had this same sticker on the packaging, which meant one deleted scene only. Hopefully this disc is actually loaded, or at least a better disc later.

----------


## Confuzzled

> For goodness sake their Homecoming script was rewritten by the director. Doesn't sound good.


Source? I won't be surprised if it's true, but this is the first I'm hearing of this.

----------


## Sirzechs

Yall seriously need to lay off Directors can give them a chance, had DC gotten someone like Waititi for this it would be the same argument that he had nothing good to his name and look how Thor turned out, James Gunn same thing wrote both Scooby Doo movies and directed Slither which bombed at the box office then look how guardians turned out. seriously not every director needs an impressive resume to make a good film.

----------


## Sirzechs

> For goodness sake their Homecoming script was rewritten by the director. Doesn't sound good.


Chris Mckenna and Erik Sommers did the rewrites and no one really knew what exactly was changed.

----------


## Soubhagya

I am somewhat apprehensive. Maybe they are the best for the job. Maybe WB found something in them which i do not know. But Flashpoint is a really important film. To give to someone like them who are so untested is risky. They have only one film. Had they got a solid director i would not be apprehensive.





> Chris Mckenna and Erik Sommers did the rewrites and no one really knew what exactly was changed.


This actually should assure me more. But Writing and Directing are two different things. Had they made the choice for something like Justice League Dark i would not be that worried. Its Flashpoint. A film which is so vital.

They might do an awesome job. But some trepidation is natural. Let us hope for the best.

----------


## Jekyll

With the success of DC’s animated division, why has there not been a push for more animated adaptations to be released to theaters? I know there is a Teen Titans GO movie coming out soon, I am talking on a larger scale. By in large most all of the animated movies have been anywhere from good to great. Why not give Bruce Timm a shot since the live action department is in a mess.

----------


## Confuzzled

> With the success of DC’s animated division, why has there not been a push for more animated adaptations to be released to theaters? I know there is a Teen Titans GO movie coming out soon, I am talking on a larger scale. By in large most all of the animated movies have been anywhere from good to great. Why not give Bruce Timm a shot since the live action department is in a mess.


_Mask of the Phantasm_ was unsuccessful on the big screen. Even _The Lego Batman Movie_ didn't create waves.

Also, _have you seen_ Bruce Timm's latest work? I think I'll actually prefer the worst that the DCEU has to offer instead.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> _Mask of the Phantasm_ was unsuccessful on the big screen. Even _The Lego Batman Movie_ didn't create waves.
> 
> Also, _have you seen_ Bruce Timm's latest work? I think I'll actually prefer the worst that the DCEU has to offer instead.


It sort of seems if it isn't a Disney animated movie, no one goes to see it.   Iron Giant was a great movie too but flopped at the box office.  About the only ones that has even been any kind of competition lately
are the Despicable Me movies from Universal.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.thewrap.com/ron-cephas-j...erhero-shazam/




> “This is Us” actor and theater vet Ron Cephas Jones is in talks to play the Wizard in New Line’s DC superhero film “SHAZAM!” TheWrap has exclusively learned.
> 
> The Wizard bestows all the powers on a teenage Billy Batson (Asher Angel) so that he can magically transform into a fully adult-size superhero (Zachary Levi).
> 
> Mark Strong has also joined the cast as the villainous Doctor Sivana. Jack Dylan Grazer, Grace Fulton, Ian Chen, Jovan Armand, Cooper Andrews and Faithe Herman round out the rest of the cast.

----------


## Frontier

Beat my by a second  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

That 3 second tease of the deleted Superman scene was better than anything he had in the film...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Clark_Kent

> That 3 second tease of the deleted Superman scene was better than anything he had in the film...


I can't wait! Finally an in-film explanation for getting the outfit (sans hole in the chest).

I hope we see a bunch more of the Superman stuff. I know we won't see a lot of Snyder footage, but the finished scenes that jive with Whedon's version (extended corn field with "I'll take that as a yes", the scene with Alfred "He said you'd come", etc) would be nice.

Maybe this lends evidence to the rumored 135 minute version that popped up on that German Amazon listing.

----------


## Thomas Crown

I bought the Blu-Ray for every DCEU movie so far. "Man of Steel". The ultimate edition of "Batman v Superman". The extended cut of "Suicide Squad". "Wonder Woman". I will NOT buy "Justice League". The only possibility of me buying this movie will be if they start to show some respect for the fans who supported DCEU movies since the beginning and release Zack's original version.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I borrowed the press release from the Superman board: 






> Burbank, CA, January 18, 2018 – Warner Bros. Pictures’ and DC Entertainment’s epic action adventure “Justice League” is arriving in 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Combo Pack, Blu-Ray 3D Combo Pack, Blu-ray Combo Pack, DVD and Digital. Directed by Zack Snyder, the film stars the famed lineup of DC Super Heroes: Ben Affleck as Batman, Henry Cavill as Superman, Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, Ezra Miller as The Flash, Jason Momoa as Aquaman, and Ray Fisher as Cyborg.
> 
> 
> “Justice League” will be available on 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Combo Pack for $44.95, Blu-ray 3D Combo Pack for $44.95, Blu-ray Combo Pack for $35.99 and DVD for $28.98. The 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Combo Pack features an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc with the theatrical version in 4K HDR and a Blu-ray disc also featuring the theatrical version. The Blu-ray 3D Combo Pack features the theatrical version of the film in 3D high definition and high definition; the Blu-ray Combo Pack features the theatrical version of the film in high definition on Blu-ray; and the DVD features the theatrical version in standard definition. The 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray, Blu-ray 3D Combo Pack and Blu-ray Combo Pack will include a digital version of the movie. Fans can also own “Justice League” via purchase from digital retailers beginning February 13, 2018.
> 
> 
> 4K Ultra HD showcases 4K resolution with High Dynamic Range (HDR) and a wider color spectrum, offering consumers brighter, deeper, more lifelike colors for a home entertainment viewing experience like never before.
> 
> 
> ...



Very, very disappointing that the "bonus scenes" do not appear to be edited into the film itself. That promo they released is obviously vague, but will give many people the wrong impression that this film is extended when it appears now not to be (although the press release keeps mentioning "theatrical version", as if it weren't the only one, so...yeah). 

Still, tho, I look forward to making my own edit of the film.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Very, very disappointing that the "bonus scenes" do not appear to be edited into the film itself. That promo they released is obviously vague, but will give many people the wrong impression that this film is extended when it appears now not to be (although the press release keeps mentioning "theatrical version", as if it weren't the only one, so...yeah). 
> 
> Still, tho, I look forward to making my own edit of the film.


I'm really looking forward to seeing the previously-unreleased scenes, but I'm also extremely disappointed that (thus far) there doesn't seen to be an alternate cut.

As for the language in the press release stressing the theatrical cut, I think that's fairly standard language. I looked up the press release of the home release of _Man of Steel_, and it used the same language:
https://www.warnerbros.com/studio/ne...mbo-pack-dvd-2

Still hoping for an extended cut, though!

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I'm really looking forward to seeing the previously-unreleased scenes, but I'm also extremely disappointed that (thus far) there doesn't seen to be an alternate cut.
> 
> As for the language in the press release stressing the theatrical cut, I think that's fairly standard language. I looked up the press release of the home release of _Man of Steel_, and it used the same language:
> https://www.warnerbros.com/studio/ne...mbo-pack-dvd-2
> 
> Still hoping for an extended cut, though!


I think the new ad (with the tease of "bonus scenes" at the end) is extremely misleading. How many people will see that & think it means "extended cut"? Pretty cheap way to get sales. 

Here's the back of the disc packaging: 

B93BE13E-3E66-4458-B32B-BB3BDD6DDD1F.jpg

----------


## Clark_Kent

Suicide Squad 2 happening sooner than expected? Not sure if this qualifies as a spoiler, but I'll tag it just in case.

*spoilers:*
 https://www.instagram.com/p/BeHAk-aHWGY/

Flag, Boomerang, and El Diablo are working out together & getting in shape, per Kinnaman's instagram. I didn't expect the actors to get together until at least Spring, if the rumored Fall production start is true. Maybe the film is closer to shooting than we thought. 

Hernandez back as Diablo is interesting too, considering his fate in SS. I know the character has come back from death in the comics, but still cool to see here.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

It's not a spoiler at all. Actors posting pictures of their training for a movie  on their public social media where thousands  can view it  are never spoilers. Sure,  that reveals an actor may be coming back but really it's not all that much a  deal-breaker.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> It's not a spoiler at all. Actors posting pictures of their training for a movie  on their public social media where thousands  can view it  are never spoilers. Sure,  that reveals an actor may be coming back but really it's not all that much a  deal-breaker.


Trying to err on the side of caution...a lot of people enjoy complete media blackouts for movies, so I didn't want to be the one to ruin it lol

----------


## Styles

'Shazam!' Will Be Funny but Won't Have Quippy One-Liners

----------


## Dominick1216

https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/01...the-narrative/

So, if this source is reliable and right, I could see the slate's release order looking like this:

2019 - Shazam, Suicide Squad 2, Wonder Woman 2
2020 - Flashpoint, Man of Steel 2, Nightwing
2021 - Batman

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 'Shazam!' Will Be Funny but Won't Have Quippy One-Liners


Good to hear. There are other forms of comedy out there and all the "quippy" ones are starting to feel the same. 

Also quite classy of Sandberg to specifically state that he's not digging at Marvel. No sense in stirring up needless hostility. Just say that your comedic movie will have a different feel than other comedic superhero movies and that's all that really needs to be said. 




> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/01...the-narrative/
> 
> So, if this source is reliable and right, I could see the slate's release order looking like this:
> 
> 2019 - Shazam, Suicide Squad 2, Wonder Woman 2
> 2020 - Flashpoint, Man of Steel 2, Nightwing
> 2021 - Batman


If this is true, that's a very strong slate for the next couple years. Well, I mean, there's some concern about Flashpoint and SS 2, but the others have all the potential in the world to be really strong if they're handled well.

----------


## Robotman

> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/01...the-narrative/
> 
> So, if this source is reliable and right, I could see the slate's release order looking like this:
> 
> 2019 - Shazam, Suicide Squad 2, Wonder Woman 2
> 2020 - Flashpoint, Man of Steel 2, Nightwing
> 2021 - Batman


That would be a very strong lineup. Don’t known how much I believe any of these scoops but I’m still hoping for MoS 2. They kind of had a decent Superman in Justice League. Confident but not arrogant. I would love to see Cavill get one more chance. Just give him a better director and some good material to work with. 

I really want to see an adaptation of The Supergirl from Krypton arc. A good way to introduce Supergirl and Darkseid.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I really want to see an adaptation of The Supergirl from Krypton arc. A good way to introduce Supergirl and Darkseid.


Would love it if the Apokoliptan generals: Granny and the Furies, DeSaad and Kalibak were the villains.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/01...the-narrative/
> 
> So, if this source is reliable and right, I could see the slate's release order looking like this:
> 
> 2019 - Shazam, Suicide Squad 2, Wonder Woman 2
> 2020 - Flashpoint, Man of Steel 2, Nightwing
> 2021 - Batman


I love that _Man of Steel_ 2 would be produced in this scenario, but I want my (good) Green Lantern movie, dangit!

----------


## Clark_Kent

That info regarding a possible MoS 2 might also be why they chose to focus on Superman-related "bonus scenes" for the JL bluray, over other possible scenes. Drum up as much interest as possible.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I sure as hell hope that's the case, because at this point another solo Superman film is all I want out of this universe.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/01...the-narrative/
> 
> So, if this source is reliable and right, I could see the slate's release order looking like this:
> 
> 2019 - Shazam, Suicide Squad 2, Wonder Woman 2
> 2020 - Flashpoint, Man of Steel 2, Nightwing
> 2021 - Batman


I'm a little surprised Shazam came together so quickly. It feels like we only heard about it a while ago whereas it feels like we've know about Aquaman for a long time. Logically, I don't get why Suicide Squad 2 is happening before these other movies. 

Flashpoint...on the one hand, I'm really excited for it but I'm not very hopeful based on how I've felt about the other movies. I am really excited for Nightwing and Batman though.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> 'Shazam!' Will Be Funny but Won't Have Quippy One-Liners


Just make it  'Big' meets superheroes and  you're good. Big has that right balance of humor and comedy.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Just make it  'Big' meets superheroes and  you're good. Big has that right balance of humor and comedy.


Where it gets tricky is that Big didn't have action.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Where it gets tricky is that Big didn't have action.


That's kind of a superficial difference though (no disrespect to hard working stunt performers and action teams).

The best action sequences also implement great character moments in them, whether those are comedic or dramatic.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That's kind of a superficial difference though (no disrespect to hard working stunt performers and action teams).
> 
> The best action sequences also implement great character moments in them, whether those are comedic or dramatic.


Good point.

----------


## ironman2978

> Just make it  'Big' meets superheroes and  you're good. Big has that right balance of humor and comedy.


It honestly has me all the more excited to see what Shazam brings. I'm so excited for what Sanberg does with the Big Cheese.

I am excited for the list of films coming in the next few years. Not to mention the GLC film, and hopefully the Cyborg film as well (I think if any film can be a good introduction for Darkseid and the Fourth World besides Superman or JL, it would be the man with the Motherbox technology ).

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Shazam! Adds No Tomorrow Actress Marta Milans*




> As production gets ready to kick off on the DC Comics adaptation, we have yet another addition to the ever growing cast of Shazam! Deadline is reporting that No Tomorrow actress Marta Milans has joined the cast of the David F. Sandberg-directed film. The site reports that Milans will play one of the foster parents at the home where Billy lives. This is likely Rosa Vasquez, who alongside her husband in the comics, looked after Billy and his foster siblings Mary, Freddy, Eugene, Pedro and Darla.

----------


## Frontier

Looks like this will lean heavily on John's _Shazam_ revamp, just minus Black Adam...

----------


## Johnny

> *‘Shazam!’ Adds ‘No Tomorrow’ Actress Marta Milans*


The DCEU's hot mom tradition ain't stoppin' anytime soon.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

I'm just relieved this movie won't have those snarky one-liners. Those seem to be prevalent nowadays especially in superhero movies.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> I'm just relieved this movie won't have those snarky one-liners. Those seem to be prevalent nowadays especially in superhero movies.


I like them when they're executed well and not forced.

----------


## mace11

> The DCEU's hot mom tradition ain't stoppin' anytime soon.


I just looked up the actress.
She is from spain.
So Rosa Vasquez is a white latina in the dc comics too?
I thought she was a person of color but i guess i was wrong.

----------


## Johnny

> I just looked up the actress.
> She is from spain.
> So Rosa Vasquez is a white latina in the dc comics too?
> I thought she was a person of color but i guess i was wrong.


Well, if Ben Daimio, a Japanese character, can be played by a Korean actor, I think this would turn out okay, too.

----------


## mace11

> Well, if Ben Daimio, a Japanese character, can be played by a Korean actor, I think this would turn out okay, too.


But they are both poc.
I though rosa was one too but i guess i was wrong.
If rosa was a poc like jessica cruz(poc) it would like be  like a white latina actress playing her from spain.

NOTE-
Now i remember reading back at the time rosa and her husband victor could be white latinos or i think they are white latinos when i think about it some more now, but for the movie i thought they would cast poc latinos instead even if they are white latinos in the comics.

----------


## Johnny

My point is Japanese people and Korean people don't look the same. If we're to talk about accurate representation, that shouldn't be dismissed just because they are both Asian. In any event, I'm fine with the casting.

And no, I certainly don't expect them to ever cast a pale Latina as Jessica.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## mace11

> My point is Japanese people and Korean people don't look the same. If we're to talk about accurate representation, that shouldn't be dismissed just because they are both Asian. In event, I'm fine with the casting.
> 
> And no, I certainly don't expect them to ever cast a pale Latina as Jessica.


I think you are wrong about the two east asian comparisons if you compare them to the examples i gave you for the latinos i mention above.
When it comes to race koreans and Japanese folks are racially the same and there are koreans that look extremely similar to japanese since the japanese originally come from korea.

In fact the  Japanese  overall  look closer to koreans then any other east asian group i think.

For example it would still be more accurate to cast a white Spanish person to play a white ancient greek then a mexican who is of color playing a white greek.

The mexican and Spanish person would be both latinos but only one would look racially accurate and the other one would not.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*JUSTICE LEAGUE VFX Artist Shares Concept Footage Featuring A Scene Not Included In Joss Whedon's Cut:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...ns-cut-a157257

----------


## Lightning Rider

> *JUSTICE LEAGUE VFX Artist Shares Concept Footage Featuring A Scene Not Included In Joss Whedon's Cut:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...ns-cut-a157257


WB apparently took it down but I was excited to see it :/ any chance someone somewhere downloaded the video?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> WB apparently took it down but I was excited to see it :/ any chance someone somewhere downloaded the video?


Look here in the comments section for a working link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...eague_footage/

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Look here in the comments section for a working link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...eague_footage/


Appreciate it. Wonder how that scene would have gone.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Wonder how that scene would have gone.


Superman heat-visions stuff, I guess.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

I watched the clip before it was taken down, and I honestly didn't see anything radically different than what was in the theatrical cut. Steppenwolf's design was a bit different, but it seemed like what happened was fairly similar.

Did I misremember the actual movie or just miss the "new" scene?

----------


## Beantownbrown

*David F. Sandberg Reveals Whether The Wizard Will Be Called Shazam*




> After Marvel Comics launched a successful trademark of the Captain Marvel name, modern DC Comics rebranded their Fawcett Comics Superman as Shazam. In addition to saying the name of the powerful magic-wielder to transform into his superhero alter-ego, DC decided to streamline things and simply make that the hero's name as well.
> 
> As a result, the wizard largely stopped be referred to as Shazam and was simply just called The Wizard.  
> 
> Some old school comic fans were hoping that wouldn't be the case in David F. Sandberg's live-action adaptation and the director recently took to Twitter to address those concerns.

----------


## Frontier

I'm kind of surprised this is even a question, but I guess given the whole confusing aspect of the Shazam name they need to clarify that kind of stuff  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I watched the clip before it was taken down, and I honestly didn't see anything radically different than what was in the theatrical cut. Steppenwolf's design was a bit different, but it seemed like what happened was fairly similar.
> 
> Did I misremember the actual movie or just miss the "new" scene?


The only thing I noticed was Clark looking down at the 'S' memorial, and his heat vision activating as he turns around without being provoked by Cyborg's cannon first. The rest looked pretty much exactly as Snyder shot it, I agree.

----------


## Clark_Kent

JL bluray's "Return of Superman" bonus scenes clock in at 1:51. 

https://www.cosmicbooknews.com/justi...ime-made-known

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Superman heat-visions stuff, I guess.


That makes total sense m, forgot about that line.

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Chris McKay Teases New Nightwing Information Next Month*

----------


## Styles

Production officially begins on Shazam!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Production officially begins on Shazam!


I like the idea of SHAZAM being a comedy.  Obviously angst, darkness, and gloom isn't working for the DCEU so maybe it is time for something different.  Not campy garbage like Batman & Robin,
but rather a movie that takes the characters seriously but lets them have fun, find joy in having powers.

----------


## Styles

Shazam!: New Photo Shows Zachary Levi In True Superhero Shape

----------


## Frontier

> ‘Shazam!’: New Photo Shows Zachary Levi In True Superhero Shape


Wow, those are some arms on him  :EEK!: .

----------


## Beantownbrown

*Wonder Woman 2 Looks Like It May Shoot In The UK This Summer*




> Wonder Woman 2 is set to begin production this summer. Patty Jenkins is returning to direct, and of course Gal Gadot will return as Diana. The film is being penned by Dave Callaham (Doom, The Expendables). Yikes!
> 
> Omega Underground reports that Warner Bros. plan is to return to the United Kingdom to shoot at least part of the sequel, using stage space at Warner Bros. Studios, Leavesden, England.
> 
> Most productions choose sound stages and studios near where exterior filming will take place. So, expect more Wonder Woman action in Europe in Wonder Woman 2.


Source

----------


## Johnny

I thought Patty and Johns were writing the movie?

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

The strength of the director is usually enough to overcome the weakness of the writer so I still have hope.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I thought Patty and Johns were writing the movie?


Apparently Warner Bros. hired him as a co-writer. You know how WB is, they just can't resist meddling in something instead of trusting the artists visions.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Apparently Warner Bros. hired him as a co-writer. You know how WB is, they just can't resist meddling in something instead of trusting the artists visions.


Or you needed a comic book guy to help out making a film. Patty Jenkins is talented. But she is no comic book expert.




> The strength of the director is usually enough to overcome the weakness of the writer so I still have hope.


I have heard differently. You can make a bad film out of a good script. But its really difficult to make a good film out of a bad script. Script of a film is the foundation of it. You can't make a solid building without a proper foundation. We need not worry unnecessarily. Patty Jenkins will be writing too. At least that's what i last heard.

----------


## Carabas

> Or you needed a comic book guy to help out making a film. Patty Jenkins is talented. But she is no comic book expert.


Read the article linked to.

Not Johns but  Dave Callaham. Who wrote The Expendables, Doom, the new Mortal Kombat movie, and created the Jean-Claude Van Johnson tv show.
It's basically doomed.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I have heard differently. You can make a bad film out of a good script. But its really difficult to make a good film out of a bad script. Script of a film is the foundation of it. You can't make a solid building without a proper foundation. We need not worry unnecessarily. Patty Jenkins will be writing too. At least that's what i last heard.


No. What  I mean when I say that  "the strengths of the director can usually overcome the weakness of the writer" is that film is much more of  a director's medium than it is a writers medium. I  can only point to the example of the writer-director collaboration between Chris Nolan and David Goyer for Batman Begins. IMO  Goyer  is  not a strong writer but Nolan's strength as a director( being as much as a  storytelling director as he is a visual one)  he's able to  have  say on how the script developed and  can change things around to make things work better. I'm not saying a good director can still make a good film out of bad film but rather I'm saying a  director can mitigate the weakness of the writer, and have enough influence to bring out the strengths of the writer. If Goyer had written and directed Batman Begins  purely on his own I guarantee you it would've been a disaster(just look at Blade Trinity after Goyer collaborated with Del Toro as only a writer on Blade 2).

----------


## Soubhagya

@Amadeus Arkham and @Osiris-Rex i am sorry. I have been a jerk posting like that. I should have read that article before posting. I thought you were among those people who hate Geoff Johns and trash on his writing before even reading them. I am not a big Johns fan myself but when i read your comments i thought you were bringing that hate for Johns(which he receives quite a bit around here) to the films. Whatever anyone's opinion might have been about Johns he co-wrote Wonder Woman. And his comic book knowledge is valuable for films. I have made a fool of myself and have been rude. I am not going repeat something like that ever again. Without reading the post that @Beantownbrown kindly posted i went off commenting. Its trollish behaviour and i am sorry.

And thank you @Carabas for pointing it out to me. I was rude. Its true. Why are they bringing a writer like him? I looked up his other works. He does not inspire confidence. His writing credits include Godzilla the new one. And Expendables. I haven't watched the two films to really say something.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

It was Patty who chose David Callaham as a writer - they collaborated before on an unrealized pre-Wonder Woman project of hers so maybe she sees something the rest of us don't in him.

----------


## Robotman

> It was Patty who chose David Callaham as a writer - they collaborated before on an unrealized pre-Wonder Woman project of hers so maybe she sees something the rest of us don't in him.


Jeez, I guess we should trust Patty’s judgment but damn that guy’s resume is horrible. Despite the fact that Patty chose him it’s still disheartening that someone with that track record is handling the Wonder Woman writing duties.

----------


## Soubhagya

> It was Patty who chose David Callaham as a writer - they collaborated before on an unrealized pre-Wonder Woman project of hers so maybe she sees something the rest of us don't in him.


Then its a different matter. Its true that his resume does not inspire much confidence. But Patty Jenkins brought him to the fold. It may be either or both of the two. She may have seen something and/or they collaborated before in that project. So its not really troubling to me. We will find out in two years.

----------


## Confuzzled

I think Patty recommended him to help her with penning the action set pieces and setup. Otherwise I'm sure she's doing most of the heavylifting when it comes to character and story beats, maybe with Johns's contributions too. She did a lot of uncredited rewriting on the script for the original movie with Johns, so now she's got a hang of this.

----------


## Styles

Shazam! Star Zachary Levi Shows Off His Physical Progress

----------


## Pinsir

> Read the article linked to.
> 
> Not Johns but  Dave Callaham. Who wrote The Expendables, Doom, the new Mortal Kombat movie, and created the Jean-Claude Van Johnson tv show.
> It's basically doomed.


The person who wrote the first Wonder Woman film also wrote some Peter Pan filck that flopped and this was one of numerous reasons people claimed that film was doomed.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The first Wonder Woman film was constantly being bombarded with rumors that it was doomed or going to be a mess, and look how that turned out.

As long as Jenkins is in charge, I'm not too worried. Nobody can predict how these things will turn out based on prior experience. Look at Whedon's track record, and then look at the dumpster fire that is JL. There are far bigger concerns elsewhere in the DCEU.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> The first Wonder Woman film was constantly being bombarded with rumors that it was doomed or going to be a mess, and look how that turned out.
> 
> As long as Jenkins is in charge, I'm not too worried. Nobody can predict how these things will turn out based on prior experience. Look at Whedon's track record, and then look at the dumpster fire that is JL. There are far bigger concerns elsewhere in the DCEU.


I think we have to look at Zack Snyder's record to look at the dumpster fire Justice League is.  There is a limited amount of silk that can be made out a sow's ear and no amount of Turtle Wax can polish a turd.

----------


## Korath

> I think we have to look at Zack Snyder's record to look at the dumpster fire Justice League is.  There is a limited amount of silk that can be made out a sow's ear and no amount of Turtle Wax can polish a turd.


Snyder's movies, especially BvS were masterpiece compared to the crappy fast-food garbage that Whedon has added to JL. There was no respect from the other movies in JL, no gravity, nothing but fan-wanking at Superman and absolute butchery of what should have been an awesome movie, because of Whedon's involvment...

----------


## Carabas

> Snyder's movies, especially BvS were masterpiece compared to the crappy fast-food garbage that Whedon has added to JL. There was no respect from the other movies in JL, no gravity, nothing but fan-wanking at Superman and absolute butchery of what should have been an awesome movie, because of Whedon's involvment...


Not because of Whedon's involvement. Whedon didn't just walk in one day and started to do reshoots all on his  own.
He was hired by WB because they really, really hared what Snyder had done.

And really, he had an impossible job. It's like being handed a 4+ hours incomplete version of Titanic, and being told to make it a 2+ hour comedy.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Snyder's movies, especially BvS were masterpiece compared to the crappy fast-food garbage that Whedon has added to JL. There was no respect from the other movies in JL, no gravity, nothing but fan-wanking at Superman and absolute butchery of what should have been an awesome movie, because of Whedon's involvment...


Given the rush job with the bad new CGI for JL yeah Snyder's films are Masterpieces but that was a low and ironically Whedon's Fan-Wanking and added Levity was what most seemed to enjoy most from the film. 

Whedon appeases the masses. Snyder takes great source material and makes good films going back to Dawn of the Dead I've never seen him elevate the source material only come in a distant 2nd because he usually never seems to grasp what made those stories great and only concentrated on making the visuals look "Awesome".

----------


## Korath

I disagree. Snyder elevate the material all right, he created a compelling and powerful world for the DCEU.... and WB destroyed it with JL and the terrible depiction of the heroes... save for the Superman's wankfest that it was an which was absolutely terrible, destroying everything which had come before. JL was passable at beast, and only because of the few remaining Snyder scenes (such as the battle between Steppenwolf and the Amazons) and certaingly not for the way Whedon handled the characters and usually shat on their arcs (like Flash, whose action to save the Russian was ridiculed by Superman carrying a whole building like that... which was impossible by the way, considering the structure of the thing).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

If anybody wants to blame anybody for the film, it's WB for being gutless, not Snyder or Whedon.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Whedon was brought in during a less than ideal situation and WB should never have let JL get off the ground with Snyder. If it had been a Whedon production from start to finish it no doubt would have been coherent and better, and likely more solid than a pure Snyder production. But how much better is a little more iffy. Thirsty Lois and anal probe lady on the TV was unleashed upon the world after all. There's also his leaked WW script, and it looks like we and the character dodged a massive bullet there. No one can fire on all cylinders at all times, and Whedon isn't any different.

So I'm not too worried about this screen writer if Patty picked him herself and if she will be contributing to the script writing process. All the alleged sources that stated the first film would be a mess were BS anyway, so this film series of the DCEU should be the one people spend the least amount of time worrying about.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I disagree. Snyder elevate the material all right, he created a compelling and powerful world for the DCEU.... and WB destroyed it with JL and the terrible depiction of the heroes... save for the Superman's wankfest that it was an which was absolutely terrible, destroying everything which had come before. JL was passable at beast, and only because of the few remaining Snyder scenes (such as the battle between Steppenwolf and the Amazons) and certaingly not for the way Whedon handled the characters and usually shat on their arcs (like Flash, whose action to save the Russian was ridiculed by Superman carrying a whole building like that... which was impossible by the way, considering the structure of the thing).


I found his world dreary, his Superman stupid and I mean stupid as in intelligence not just when people call a character they dislike stupid, and his Batman was psychotic to me. I hated his foundation and would had voted complete DCEU reboot until Wonder Woman. I also conceded the WB did the DCEU no favors.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think we have to look at Zack Snyder's record to look at the dumpster fire Justice League is.  There is a limited amount of silk that can be made out a sow's ear and no amount of Turtle Wax can polish a turd.


I never said Snyder was blameless either. And WB deserves the most blame.

----------


## The_Lurk

Is it know if WB will polish Mustachegate for the BluRay release? Its sad enough they won't release an extended version but thats IMO something they simply have to do.

----------


## Carabas

> Is it know if WB will polish Mustachegate for the BluRay release? Its sad enough they won't release an extended version but thats IMO something they simply have to do.


How do you even do that short of waiting until Cavill is allowed to shave and do another round of reshoots?

----------


## Black_Adam

> The first Wonder Woman film was constantly being bombarded with rumors that it was doomed or going to be a mess, and look how that turned out.


Too be honest until DC Films has a run of 3-4 critical darling films, this will probably be the norm regardless of the movie in question.

And WB have no one to blame but themselves they have failed to take control of the narrative early and quash down on leaks and rumours, which have had an immense negative impact on public perception.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think we have to look at Zack Snyder's record to look at the dumpster fire Justice League is.  There is a limited amount of silk that can be made out a sow's ear and no amount of Turtle Wax can polish a turd.


Because it's not like Whedon couldn't have made a poor movie on his own. I guess we forgot Age if Ultron exists.

----------


## mace11

> Because it's not like Whedon couldn't have made a poor movie on his own. I guess we forgot Age if Ultron exists.


Most critics gave positive reviews for age of ultron,well most gave negative reviews for justice league.
Most of the audiences that have seen both gave them positive reviews.
Anyway most critics thought it was a really good film(not a poor film) looking at the scores.

Age of ultron by the way made way more money then justice league.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Too be honest until DC Films has a run of 3-4 critical darling films, this will probably be the norm regardless of the movie in question.
> 
> And WB have no one to blame but themselves they have failed to take control of the narrative early and quash down on leaks and rumours, which have had an immense negative impact on public perception.


You're probably right, but it still seems like a waste of energy to worry about Wonder Woman at this point, IMO.

The rest of it though...I just pray they aren't stupid enough to interfere with James Wan. 




> Most critics gave positive reviews for age of ultron,well most gave negative reviews for justice league.
> Most of the audiences that have seen both gave them positive reviews.
> Anyway most critics thought it was a really good film(not a poor film) looking at the scores.
> 
> Age of ultron by the way made way more money then justice league.


Age of Ultron was definitely more well received than JL, but that's not saying much. Fandom didn't embrace it nearly as much as the first film, and Whedon got a ton of flack for his treatment of Widow in particular. Overall, it seems to have earned a reputation of "So okay, it's average." And now the Russo brothers have Infinity War.

----------


## The_Lurk

> How do you even do that short of waiting until Cavill is allowed to shave and do another round of reshoots?


When they can add entire dead actors since at least 24y ago they can fix the mustache thing. How in exact detail? No idea, but it probably involves expensive studio software & PC power which apparently have not been in use in the first place when they shot with the mustache.

----------


## Robotman

> Is it know if WB will polish Mustachegate for the BluRay release? Its sad enough they won't release an extended version but thats IMO something they simply have to do.


I dont think WB wants to spend any more money on that movie. It was a disaster and theyve moved on. Theyre just hoping they can rebound in 2019.

----------


## mace11

> Age of Ultron was definitely more well received than JL, but that's not saying much. Fandom didn't embrace it nearly as much as the first film, and Whedon got a ton of flack for his treatment of Widow in particular. Overall, it seems to have earned a reputation of "So okay, it's average." And now the Russo brothers have Infinity War.


You are wrong about that.
It was not as embraced as the first one but it was embraced more then most dceu films on average.
It was highly embraced but not at much as the first.
The audience for rt gave it much higher scores on average then critics  but critic rt scores are really high.
The rt score if you  break it down for critics would be 4/5 stars.
Great but not really great or excellent.

For the average score from critics it got a 6.7/10.
So that's very good score, not average score.
So critics or rt view it as very good to a great film,not average or just okay.



Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) - IMDb
 Rating: 7.4/10 - 557,555 votes

Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) - Rotten Tomatoes
TOMATOMETER. 75%.
Average Rating:
6.7/10. 
Audience Score 
83% liked it
Average Rating 
4.1/5

Critical response




> The review aggregator website Rotten Tomatoes reported a 75% approval rating with an average rating of 6.7/10 based on 323 reviews. The website's critical consensus reads, "Exuberant and eye-popping, Avengers: Age of Ultron  serves as an overstuffed but mostly satisfying sequel, reuniting its predecessor's unwieldy cast with a few new additions and a worthy foe."On Metacritic, the film achieved an average score of 66 out of 100, based on 49 critics, signifying "generally favorable reviews".  CinemaScore  reported that audiences gave the film an "A" grade on an A+ to F scale.



Note-CinemaScore for the Audience scores are   more accurate by the way.
That is the audience score you should look at first before the other audience scores.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Note-CinemaScore for the Audience scores are   more accurate by the way.
> That is the audience score you should look at first before the other audience scores.


It seems like a movie has to be quite bad to get even a C.   Even movies like Suicide Squad and Transformers: The Last Knight got a B+.  For that matter Batman & Robin got a C+. 
It almost seems like a A is a mediocre score and only truly great movies get an A+

----------


## mace11

CinemaScore



> An A+ grade from CinemaScore for a film typically predicts a successful box office. From 1982 to August 2011, only 52 films (about two a year) received the top grade, including seven Academy Award for Best Picture  winners. A+ films include Titanic, A Few Good Men, Dances with Wolves, Driving Miss Daisy, The King's Speech, Schindler's List and Toy Story 2. From 2004 to 2014, those rated A+ and A earned total revenue 4.8 and 3.6 times their opening-weekend box-office results, respectively, while C-rated films' total revenue was 2.5 times their opening weekend. As opening-night audiences are presumably more enthusiastic about a film than ordinary patrons, a C grade from them is - according to the Los Angeles Times - "bad news, the equivalent of a failing grade". According to Mintz, "A’s generally are good, B’s generally are shaky, and C’s are terrible. D’s and F’s, they shouldn’t have made the movie, or they promoted it funny and the absolute wrong crowd got into it". In the same interview he cited Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Cruise as the "two stars, it doesn’t matter how bad the film is, they can pull (the projections) up".B Grade For ‘Turtles’: What CinemaScores Mean And Why Exit Polling Matters


http://deadline.com/2014/08/b-grade-...tters-816538/#



Here is a movie ratings system i found.

Movie Rating Systems
http://www.ideaxchg.com/movie-rating-systems/

----------


## mace11

When i heard i about the black panther and RT thing i started to trust the movie scores from audiences even more so from CinemaScore.
They would be more accurate what the audiences are thinking about a movie.


Anyway when normal folks rate a movie using the letter system i think a c is really considered mediocre(not bad).
This is how you suppose to rate movies using the letter system because no way i was consider an A close to mediocre.
For me a B is not mediocre  if i rate a movie using the letter system and most folks will say the same as well.

C+ good to very good.
C good to so and so.
C-  so and so to bad.

A- is great to really great.
A is really great.
A+ is excellent.

B+ Very good to great.
B very good.
B- good to very good.


Anyway check out the recent comicbook movies and thier CinemaScore.

Cinemascores
DC FILMS
Wonder Woman
A

Justice League
B+

Animation/movies
The Lego Batman Movie
A-

Batman: The Killing Joke
Cinemascore?

Marvel
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
A

Spider-Man: Homecoming
A


Thor: Ragnarok
A

----------


## Frontier

First official synposis for _Shazam_:




> We all have a superhero inside us, it just takes a bit of magic to bring it out. In Billy Batsons (Angel) case, by shouting out one wordSHAZAM!this streetwise 14-year-old foster kid can turn into the adult Super Hero Shazam (Levi), courtesy of an ancient wizard.Still a kid at heartinside a ripped, godlike bodyShazam revels in this adult version of himself by doing what any teen would do with superpowers: have fun with them! Can he fly? Does he have X-ray vision? Can he shoot lightning out of his hands? Can he skip his social studies test? Shazam sets out to test the limits of his abilities with the joyful recklessness of a child. But hell need to master these powers quickly in order to fight the deadly forces of evil controlled by Dr. Thaddeus Sivana (Strong).

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I wonder if the part from Geoff Johns' Shazam where he tries to buy beer in his superhero form will be included? :P

----------


## Vanguard-01

> First official synposis for _Shazam_:


Sounds like a perfect summation for a good Shazam/Captain Marvel story!

Definitely excited for this one!

----------


## Robotman

I guess that’s confirmation that he’s gonna he called “Shazam”.

----------


## Robotman

The new Deadpool trailer takes a shot at Justice League/mustache gate. Man, that movie has become a punch line.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> First official synposis for _Shazam_:


Sounds good to me.

I haven’t read a ton of Captain Marvel and I’m curious how fans view his personality in adult form. I was a bit surprised when the New 52 appearances he made in other titles seemed to still have he personality of a child. I don’t remember that always being the case, can someone enlighten me? Has it always been that way and writers just don’t always nail reconciling a child’s innocence and the Wisdom of Solomon?

----------


## Frontier

> The new Deadpool trailer takes a shot at Justice League/mustache gate. Man, that movie has become a punch line.


Well, they already made fun of _Green Lantern_ in the last movie  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Sounds good to me.
> 
> I haven’t read a ton of Captain Marvel and I’m curious how fans view his personality in adult form. I was a bit surprised when the New 52 appearances he made in other titles seemed to still have he personality of a child. I don’t remember that always being the case, can someone enlighten me? Has it always been that way and writers just don’t always nail reconciling a child’s innocence and the Wisdom of Solomon?


I don't think it was the case for Golden Age Captain Marvel but later interpretations started running with the idea that Billy retained his personality after transforming into Captain Marvel. 

I don't think writers have necessarily failed reconciling a child's innocence with the Wisdom of Solomon, more like made a natural contrast with it as a focal point.

----------


## maxmcco

> Sounds good to me.
> 
> I haven’t read a ton of Captain Marvel and I’m curious how fans view his personality in adult form. I was a bit surprised when the New 52 appearances he made in other titles seemed to still have he personality of a child. I don’t remember that always being the case, can someone enlighten me? Has it always been that way and writers just don’t always nail reconciling a child’s innocence and the Wisdom of Solomon?


The short answer is Cap has mostly been written with Billy's personality (sans the wisdom of Solomon) since he was integrated into Prime Earth after the original Crisis. The exceptions are Jeff Smith's amazing Monster Society of Evil and Captain Marvel from Earth 5 (Thunderworld) or Earth S (Convergence Shazam!). Those gave Cap his own distinct adult personality.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Joaquin Phoenix is in talks to play Joker in that Elseworlds Joker Origin flick...

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/jo...ps-1202692188/

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> The new Deadpool trailer takes a shot at Justice League/mustache gate. Man, that movie has become a punch line.


The DCEU has been a meme since it started. It's honestly embarrassing.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.thewrap.com/lobo-michael-bay-dc-superhero/

Auteur Michael Bay, pure Americana distilled into the form of mortal man, in talks to direct Lobo film.

Well, people got their wish to get Snyder out of DC films but now they might have to deal with the Bayhem  :Cool:

----------


## Frontier

> Joaquin Phoenix is in talks to play Joker in that Elseworlds Joker Origin flick...
> 
> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/jo...ps-1202692188/


I wonder if they could get Phoenix for this given how hesitant he's been in the past to appear in comic book movies, though I get why they'd go for him in this role.

Be kind of funny if his Joker ends up being better then Leto's...



> https://www.thewrap.com/lobo-michael-bay-dc-superhero/
> 
> Auteur Michael Bay, pure Americana distilled into the form of mortal man, in talks to direct Lobo film.
> 
> Well, people got their wish to get Snyder out of DC films but now they might have to deal with the Bayhem


Well, if there was any kind of comic book property that would be perfect for Bay's sensibilities, it would be Lobo  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Just don't let him touch anything else...

----------


## Johnny

Sigh. WB just keeps trying to "answer" to Marvel over and over again and they will keep embarrassing themselves and ruining great DC characters over and over again.

----------


## Robotman

> The DCEU has been a meme since it started. It's honestly embarrassing.






> https://www.thewrap.com/lobo-michael-bay-dc-superhero/
> 
> Auteur Michael Bay, pure Americana distilled into the form of mortal man, in talks to direct Lobo film.
> 
> Well, people got their wish to get Snyder out of DC films but now they might have to deal with the Bayhem


Sounds like the embarrassment will continue. Jeezus, WB just doesn’t have a clue.

----------


## Johnny

> Sounds like the embarrassment will continue. Jeezus, WB just doesnt have a clue.


People always like to joke about how ridiculous rich folks are. WB is certainly a great example for that.

----------


## Carabas

> Well, if there was any kind of comic book property that would be perfect for Bay's sensibilities, it would be Lobo.


Do you think Bay will even notice the character is supposed to be a parody of the kind of stuff he usually makes?

----------


## El_Gato

It's like WB just wants to destroy the DC brand at the cinema! Which sucks as a fan!

Hoping for the best with Aquaman, Shazam and SS2 since strong talent is involved. I trust Patty with Wonder Woman so I'm looking forward to the sequel but everything else is just a big WTF!

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

A buddy of mine mocked Bay and posited Robert Rodriguez as an alternative, what do you guys think?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Keep in mind this could all prove to be a hot load of nothing, similar to how Mel Gibson was the first reported director in talks to do Suicide Squad 2 but ultimately the job went to Gavin O'Connor instead. 

Though he is responsible for the Transformers saga, I think Pain & Gain showed that Michael Bay actually is capable of making a competent (though good + tasteful is subjective) film. So who knows how a Michael Bay DC film will turn out?

Anyways a small update on the Bay Lobo story:



> Mega(tron) director Michael Bay may be going from the world of giant robots to the alien worlds of DC Comics.
> 
> Warner Bros. is developing Lobo, a feature based on the muscle-bound, cigar-chomping alien bounty hunter, as a possible directing vehicle for Bay.
> 
> There are no negotiations — heck, there’s not even an offer from the studio — but a dance between the two has begun. Part of any decision will rest on a rewrite that scribe Jason Fuchs would need to do.
> 
> *Sources said that Lobo, as it currently stands, would be a tentpole costing upwards of $200 million, a figure that has Warners execs reaching for the Maalox. Bay, too, has signaled that he isn’t keen on the massive nature of Lobo. The intended rewrite would scale down the project while still keeping the director’s interest.*


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...direct-1083170

It seems after the box office failure of JL, Warner's keeping a closer eye on their DC film budgets.

----------


## Robotman

> Do you think Bay will even notice the character is supposed to be a parody of the kind of stuff he usually makes?


Exactly! Lobo is a parody of everything Bay stands for! The “extreme” “bad ass” who likes to kill people and blow shit up. The fact that WB is considering him to helm a Lobo film is the biggest face palm ever.

----------


## BlackClaw

So it seems at this point the only DC movies to look forward to are Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman. It’s just mind boggling how incompetent WB is with handling this franchise.

----------


## Frontier

> Do you think Bay will even notice the character is supposed to be a parody of the kind of stuff he usually makes?


No, but that's what makes it even more hilarious  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Carabas

> So it seems at this point the only DC movies to look forward to are Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman. It’s just mind boggling how incompetent WB is with handling this franchise.


Oh, I'm expecting a headline along the lines of "Wonder woman director replaced by Uwe Boll" any day now.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Oh, I'm expecting a headline along the lines of "Wonder woman director replaced by Uwe Boll" any day now.


Lmao. In all seriousness I think the logical thing to do is trust wait until Wonder Woman’s trilogy is finished and then Warner Bros should wait a while. Once enough time has passed, do a hard reboot. And that’s assuming that the Flashpoint movie isn’t gonna DOFP this whole universe.

----------


## Vanguard-01

What's the problem, again? Lobo is probably the best character for Bay: no real depth or complexity. He's just a big, dumb, space biker who blows crap up and kills or captures people for profit. Perfect for a guy like Bay.

Lobo has exactly two personality traits that give him any "complexity." 1.) His inexplicable (as in it's literally never explained) love of dolphins. 2.) His "my word is my bond/no contract no kill" code of honor. Well within Bay's capabilities. Meanwhile? High action and lots of explosions are also on the menu, and Bay excels at that. 

Bottom line? This is about as good a match for Bay's abilities as we could hope for and whether people like to admit it or not, the guy sells movie tickets. People don't have any illusions about what they're in for when they go to see his movies. Somehow, he manages to be "Rotten Tomatoes proof." This is pretty much a guaranteed win for WB if it happens.

----------


## Carabas

> What's the problem, again? Lobo is probably the best character for Bay: no real depth or complexity. He's just a big, dumb, space biker who blows crap up and kills or captures people for profit. Perfect for a guy like Bay.


Lobo is a comedy character. Bay doesn't do funny.

----------


## Barbatos666

Lobo has better runs and more smarter written comics than a lot of DC characters. He's a satire character, it takes skill much like Deadpool. Bay will make him a parody of what Lobo was supposed to parody.

----------


## Moonwix

If these rumors are true. Michael bay as finally gotten his hands directing a dc character. If memories serve me right, I remember a rumour after the success of the dark knight. dc wanted Michael bay  on man of steel but he wanted to remain on transformers films. So they got Zach Snyder instead. I don't know if this rumour reached the media by it was within the film industry.  Sometimes, I wonder if it was Michael bay at the start of the dceu, if the outcome would have been better or much worse.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Lobo is a comedy character. Bay doesn't do funny.


Bay does do funny. It’s just that whenever he does do funny it tends to be shit that would make a twelve year old giggle. A good example would be the robot testicles from Transformers 2.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Lobo is a comedy character. Bay doesn't do funny.


A good script with good humor can mitigate that, no problem.

----------


## Styles

Nightwing Director Wants a Little Help to Find the Right Star

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Lmao. In all seriousness I think the logical thing to do is trust wait until Wonder Womans trilogy is finished and then Warner Bros should wait a while. Once enough time has passed, do a hard reboot. And thats assuming that the Flashpoint movie isnt gonna DOFP this whole universe.


And Ford should have stopped making cars for a few years after the Edsel flopped.  Instead they came out with the Mustang. The superhero movies are huge for Warner Bros.  They are going to keep making them whether 
a select group of the fandom and the critics like them or not.  They will just make different superhero movies that don't have the stink of Zack Snyder on them.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Nightwing Director Wants a Little Help to Find the Right Star


I wish the poll allowed ranking, 

Vulnerable/Emotional is probably at the top, but its so closely followed by martial arts/gymnastic skills.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

I'm hearing WB wants this Lobo film to be its answer to Deadpool. Not sure I see that panning out.

----------


## Carabas

> I'm hearing WB wants this Lobo film to be its answer to Deadpool. Not sure I see that panning out.


Not with Bay running the show, no.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Part of the Bonus Superman scene on the Justice League BR has leaked. Watch it while you can!

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Part of the Bonus Superman scene on the Justice League BR has leaked. Watch it while you can!


As much as I enjoyed the theatrical cut, *DAMN* do I want that black suit integrated into the film. It's gorgeous.

----------


## Amazon Swordsman

Why do they spend so much time/money shooting all these scenes if they'll just be cut from the final version? Do they not care about plot building or do they 2nd guess themselves to death?

----------


## gbshabo

Marvel build its Universe by establishing the superheroes first. It seems DC is now moving in the direction of establishing it's villains. I like it. It seems like within a few years there will be a solid InJustice Society and with that perhaps another Justice League movie. One actually worth watching because of villains will be something people will be interested in. I honestly think this is the way to move forward. Bring on Lobo bring on the Joker bring on Black Adam. Bring on Deathstroke

----------


## Robotman

> Why do they spend so much time/money shooting all these scenes if they'll just be cut from the final version? Do they not care about plot building or do they 2nd guess themselves to death?


well after test audiences and execs viewed Snyder's first cut of the movie it was called "unwatchable". so they cut it to pieces with a 2 hour mandate and took the hit. 
turd sandwich, take a bite and smile.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Marvel build its Universe by establishing the superheroes first. It seems DC is now moving in the direction of establishing it's villains. I like it. It seems like within a few years there will be a solid InJustice Society and with that perhaps another Justice League movie. One actually worth watching because of villains will be something people will be interested in. I honestly think this is the way to move forward. Bring on Lobo bring on the Joker bring on Black Adam. Bring on Deathstroke


I still feel like heroes get people in the door though. 

We'll see how it goes.

----------


## Black_Adam

> A good script with good humor can mitigate that, no problem.


Well I liked Pain and Gain if that counts as Bay comedy...

But would definitely prefer they prioritize a director who can do good comedy and dialogue over action for a Lobo movie. 

Also If they get Bay it pretty much means they are committing critical suicide, might actually have a movie in the DCEU with a lower Rotten Tomatoes than Suicide Squad.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Part of the Bonus Superman scene on the Justice League BR has leaked. Watch it while you can!


Man what the fuck.

----------


## Frontier

> *I still feel like heroes get people in the door though.* 
> 
> We'll see how it goes.


I think if you're doing it right that should be the case.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Part of the Bonus Superman scene on the Justice League BR has leaked. Watch it while you can!


I guess Superman wasn't smiling enough in this scene so they felt the need to cut it from the theatrical, still nice though.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I still feel like heroes get people in the door though. 
> 
> We'll see how it goes.


For all the crap Marvel gets they got for their "Weak" villains they made a smart move they knew most villains are one offs and concentrated on the heroes because they're who the audience is going to come back for and if you look at the reactions to their trailers and films people genuinely care for the MCU heroes.

----------


## Sandfall

> I'm hearing WB wants this Lobo film to be its answer to Deadpool. Not sure I see that panning out.


WB are going very wrong again. they already have a good answer to Deadpool. Deathstroke. WB should focus on building a Gotham style universe with DeathStroke as a major reoccuring character.

----------


## Monkey Genius

> Lobo is a comedy character. Bay doesn't do funny.


Pain and Gain is funny.

----------


## Soubhagya

> A good script with good humor can mitigate that, no problem.


I doubt that. Translating a script to screen is different. And good script, good humor are a lot of ifs.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Part of the Bonus Superman scene on the Justice League BR has leaked. Watch it while you can!


A beautiful scene. But ultimately pointless. Good as additional material for fans. But it does not add anything to the film's narrative.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

First look at Sivana Industrkes' Logo...



Finally we'll see Mark Strong playing an evil bald industrialist.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Doctor Know

> well after test audiences and execs viewed Snyder's first cut of the movie it was called "unwatchable". so they cut it to pieces with a 2 hour mandate and took the hit. 
> turd sandwich, take a bite and smile.


I remember the "unwatchable" claims. They were made about WW too. They came out back in January 2017, before a working print of either movie had been put together. Remember, WW's music wasn't added to the film until mid February, and JL didn't have it's soundtrack added until late July/August.

----------


## Soubhagya

> For all the crap Marvel gets they got for their "Weak" villains they made a smart move they knew most villains are one offs and concentrated on the heroes because they're who the audience is going to come back for and if you look at the reactions to their trailers and films people genuinely care for the MCU heroes.


That is the right move for Marvel. People actually care for the heroes. These villain films aren't even villains. Suicide Squad tries to remind us that they are the bad guys when clearly they are the good guys. Doing stuff that good guys do in a film.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> First look at Sivana Industrkes' Logo...
> 
> 
> 
> Finally we'll see Mark Strong playing an evil bald industrialist.


Looks very "X-Men-esque."

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

If McKays statements about official news regarding the Nightwing movie coming some time next week are true, it would make sense for WB to also give a proper statement regarding Matt Reeves' Batman movie (how it will connect to the Nightwing movie , casting, a release date...), which in turn would make for a good basis to indicate what the plans for the DCEU will be moving forward. Walter Hamada has been in charge a month now, is there any chance he's had enough time to help set up a new direction for the franchise?




> First look at Sivana Industrkes' Logo...
> 
> 
> 
> Finally we'll see Mark Strong playing an evil bald industrialist.


WB certainly aren't breaking a sweat trying to position Shazam as it's own thing from the Superman mythos...

----------


## Gaastra

Looks like synder leaving on his own may have been PR spin. WB may have fired him!

Edit-looks like a lot of reporters knew about this then but didn't report it due to his family loss.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Looks like synder leaving on his own may have been PR spin. WB may have fired him!
> 
> Edit-looks like a lot of reporters knew about this then but didn't report it due to his family loss.


How shocking. It's not like a small contingent of us here tried to spell this obvious maneuver out to everyone else and were ridiculed.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> If McKays statements about official news regarding the Nightwing movie coming some time next week are true, it would make sense for WB to also give a proper statement regarding Matt Reeves' Batman movie (how it will connect to the Nightwing movie , casting, a release date...), which in turn would make for a good basis to indicate what the plans for the DCEU will be moving forward. Walter Hamada has been in charge a month now, is there any chance he's had enough time to help set up a new direction for the franchise?


It's hard to announce firms plans for a DC Universe when you have no idea what's happening with Batman. Affleck and Reeves, and the lack of clarity on that movie, are probably a big reason why the new direction of these movies isn't known.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> It's hard to announce firms plans for a DC Universe when you have no idea what's happening with Batman. Affleck and Reeves, and the lack of clarity on that movie, are probably a big reason why the new direction of these movies isn't known.


Oh I agree, but the new management has had some time to think things through, and whatever reactions they needed to gauge with Justice League should have been gauged by now, so if they've ever had some kind of cohesive plan, next week would be a good time to come out with it. I'm not expecting a full slate of films with directors, writers and actors attached, but some kind of statement of intent would be nice.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Oh I agree, but the new management has had some time to think things through, and whatever reactions they needed to gauge with Justice League should have been gauged by now, so if they've ever had some kind of cohesive plan, next week would be a good time to come out with it. I'm not expecting a full slate of films with directors, writers and actors attached, but some kind of statement of intent would be nice.


Why do you think next week?  To counter the Black Panther premiere?

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Why do you think next week?  To counter the Black Panther premiere?


Nope, just that Chris McCkay said that he'd be able to share some official news about the Nightwing movie around Valentine's Day, which would be an obvious opportunity for WB to give some kind of definite statement regarding the Batman movie as well, and if they're talking about how or if those two are connected, that should give us some kind of idea regarding how they will be going forward with the DCEU.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Nope, just that Chris McCkay said that he'd be able to share some official news about the Nightwing movie around Valentine's Day, which would be an obvious opportunity for WB to give some kind of definite statement regarding the Batman movie as well, and if they're talking about how or if those two are connected, that should give us some kind of idea regarding how they will be going forward with the DCEU.


Oh Ok.  I haven't been following any of the Nightwing tweets from McKay.  While I think it is great that he is getting a movie I think it is a little flimsy to make a Nightwing movie before you get the the JL members' solos sorted out first.  It makes it seem like an even weaker foundation and more of a "let's see what sticks and can make us some quick cash" approach.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/962760977711329280

Possible details about Snyder's cut.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Oh Ok.  I haven't been following any of the Nightwing tweets from McKay.  While I think it is great that he is getting a movie I think it is a little flimsy to make a Nightwing movie before you get the the JL members' solos sorted out first.  It makes it seem like an even weaker foundation and more of a "let's see what sticks and can make us some quick cash" approach.


That's the way making movies works.  A number of proposals, ideas are submitted.  And then management decides which ones are viable and gives the go ahead to further develop the movies which have the
most potential to make money.  Just because the nerd vine reports all the possible ideas being proposed doesn't mean all of them or even any of them will end up getting made. So when you see a list
of a dozen DC movies or four Harley Quinn movies or what have you, figure that maybe two or three of those will actually get made, and maybe only one, two at most Harley Quinn movies.

----------


## Robotman

> https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/962760977711329280
> 
> Possible details about Snyder's cut.


If that’s true I’m glad there wasn’t a Snyder cut. I don’t want to see more of depressed “hardened” Superman. The hopeful more traditional Superman was one of the few bright spots of the movie.

----------


## Carabas

> https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/962760977711329280
> 
> Possible details about Snyder's cut.


I don't think Snyder, at a very basic level, just does not get superheroes.

----------


## Black_Adam

> https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/962760977711329280
> 
> Possible details about Snyder's cut.


If this is true we might as well of called MoS, BvS and JL the "Superman can't make his bloody mind up" trilogy, seriously.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Orange & green for Halloween? WB licensing event attendee says the AQUAMAN movie costume shown is "exactly" like the modern comics version!"_

https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...92087319777280

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I don't think Snyder, at a very basic level, just does not get superheroes.


This an accidental double negative? 

I think Snyder loves the idea of superheroes as something he can twist and play with, but doesn't acknowledge/understand the value of them in their natural state. 

In an AU where we got a great DC cinematic universe and it was as big as marvel, I could see Zack doing well doing a separate universe of elseworlds movies.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> This an accidental double negative? 
> 
> I think Snyder loves the idea of superheroes as something he can twist and play with, but doesn't acknowledge/understand the value of them in their natural state. 
> 
> In an AU where we got a great DC cinematic universe and it was as big as marvel, I could see Zack doing well doing a separate universe of elseworlds movies.


I think Snyder is the kind of comic fan that likes the idea of superheroes, but more so in the Injustice or Frank Miller off-line, radical interpretation manner. But when you're charged with starting the first ever cinematic universe, that is just a failure. Total, absolute failure of a vision. And shame on WB for not intervening sooner.

----------


## qwerty3w

You can see WB really gave Zack Snyder a lot of creative freedom. After WB decided they need to change the tone of their Superhero movies, Zack still got enough autonomy to put together a cut that's merely "slightly more optimistic" than BVS.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> You can see WB really gave Zack Snyder a lot of creative freedom. After WB decided they need to change the tone of their Superhero movies, Zack still got enough autonomy to put together a cut that's merely "slightly more optimistic" than BVS.


After BvS, there was no logic in moving forward with Snyder on JL other than saving face and not halting production (which should have never begun prior to knowing the public response to BvS).

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think Snyder is the kind of comic fan that likes the idea of superheroes, but more so in the Injustice or Frank Miller off-line, radical interpretation manner. But when you're charged with starting the first ever cinematic universe, that is just a failure. Total, absolute failure of a vision. And shame on WB for not intervening sooner.


Agreed on all fronts. I think they also erred considerably in equating Snyder's and Nolan's visions, and not realizing they weren't at all the same. MoS was kind of close, so I can understand them not immediately pivoting after that, but after BvS he should have been immediately canned while JL was delayed.

----------


## Korath

For the life of me, I can't understand all this hate around BvS. It's probably the best super-heroes movies by far out there, being both an exellent movie on its own and what a shared universe should be... WB should have given carte blanche to Snyder for JL and told Whedon to change nothing and the film would have been better that what he was.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think Snyder is the kind of comic fan that likes the idea of superheroes, but more so in the Injustice or Frank Miller off-line, radical interpretation manner. But when you're charged with starting the first ever cinematic universe, that is just a failure. Total, absolute failure of a vision. And shame on WB for not intervening sooner.


Every adaptation is an alternate universe with changes from canon. Snyder's Superman was nothing like his Injustice or Frank Miller counterparts and has precedent in a number of comics as well as Smallville.

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't think Snyder, at a very basic level, just does not get superheroes.


You know, if I had a dollar every time a comic fan said this about a creator they don't like, I'd be rich enough to buy DC comics. 

Seriously, what exactly is being posted in that tweet that hasn't been done before? Especially in stuff like Kingdom Come? At least this Superman's absence wouldn't be a result of him throwing a kiddy fit because he wasn't top dog anymore.

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/962760977711329280
> 
> Possible details about Snyder's cut.


Honestly, however much we complain about what the final product of JL ended up being, this doesn't sound like it would've improved it much. 

But your mileage my vary.



> _"Orange & green for Halloween? WB licensing event attendee says the AQUAMAN movie costume shown is "exactly" like the modern comics version!"_
> 
> https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...92087319777280


Wonder how long before we get official costume shots of everybody.

----------


## Clark_Kent

I think all of this hate over Snyder's version is pretty silly considering nobody here has, you know, actually seen the thing. "Oh boy, we have tweets! Start the hate train!" 

I didn't care for Civil War, but it would be silly of me to say how much the Russo's Infinity War is going to suck simply because I haven't seen it yet. I kind of have to watch it first, and not just read tweets about it, to make a determination. Maybe that's just me.

----------


## Barbatos666

Snyder is old news, he's finished now. DC films will be better off without him.

----------


## Elmo

I think WB should consider Plastic Man as a feature film

He's funny

off the rails

immensely powerful

and he's an FBI agent

they could make it a goofy superhero spy movie paying homage to 60's James Bond knockoffs

and back in 2016 the big rumor was that DC was optioning lesser known properties to make more low budget films that could generate success but not completely fail the DCEU if they were to flop

----------


## Jokerz79

> For the life of me, I can't understand all this hate around BvS. It's probably the best super-heroes movies by far out there, being both an exellent movie on its own and what a shared universe should be... WB should have given carte blanche to Snyder for JL and told Whedon to change nothing and the film would have been better that what he was.


The Ultimate Cut was an good film, the Theatrical Cut was just a mess, and the shared universe aspect was decent till those email files which was just a laughably bad idea IMO.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> https://twitter.com/I_Am_MFR/status/962760977711329280
> 
> Possible details about Snyder's cut.


While having Steppenwolf as an obvious precursor to Darkseid would've been a much better take, I'm not sure about Superman's personality post-resurrection.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still love that version to be released, if only for the basis of comparison, but I can't say that it'd be better than what we got.

As much as I enjoyed _Justice League_, I would like some sort of extended version, even if it's an extended theatrical cut, if only to help improve the flow of the first act.

EDIT: Warner Bros seemed to bring this whole fiasco (JL's reception/box office) on themselves. They clearly didn't want Snyder after BvS but didn't wanna delay JL. When they saw his JL, they either fired him or accepted his resignation and brought on a guy with totally different sensibilities to redo most of the movie. THEN they hack that version up to fit under 2 hours. It just seems like it was a comedy of errors behind the scenes.

If they were gonna keep Snyder, they should have just bitten the bullet, did what he wanted and then moved on once it released. You can't argue that what they did resulted in anything better (critically or financially). At least then it would've been artistically consistent with what came before.

Again, I really liked _Justice League_ (I'm going to see it again tomorrow night, in fact), but it seems like WB did more harm trying to fix the movie than they would have simply going with what Snyder gave them.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> For the life of me, I can't understand all this hate around BvS. It's probably the best super-heroes movies by far out there, being both an exellent movie on its own and what a shared universe should be... WB should have given carte blanche to Snyder for JL and told Whedon to change nothing and the film would have been better that what he was.


I liked BvS when I saw it in theaters. It got so much hate and when I watched it a second time about a year later, I understood why. It's fun but heavily flawed. It tried to do way to much in terms of universe building.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Warner Bros seemed to bring this whole fiasco (JL's reception/box office) on themselves. They clearly didn't want Snyder after BvS but didn't wanna delay JL. When they saw his JL, they either fired him or accepted his resignation and brought on a guy with totally different sensibilities to redo most of the movie. THEN they hack that version up to fit under 2 hours. It just seems like it was a comedy of errors behind the scenes.
> 
> If they were gonna keep Snyder, they should have just bitten the bullet, did what he wanted and then moved on once it released. You can't argue that what they did resulted in anything better (critically or financially). At least then it would've been artistically consistent with what came before.
> 
> Again, I really liked _Justice League_ (I'm going to see it again tomorrow night, in fact), but it seems like WB did more harm trying to fix the movie than they would have simply going with what Snyder gave them.


Agreed. I understand Snyder has his fans, so him being bad or good is just going down a road we've all been down before. 

What I think both parties can agree on is that WB half assing it was terrible for everybody. They either should have axed Snyder post BvS and delayed JL or gone all in on Snyder's vision for JL. Using his leave of absence (if it even was that) as a way to make a last second pivot was just complete foolishness.

----------


## Carabas

> You know, if I had a dollar every time a comic fan said this about a creator they don't like, I'd be rich enough to buy DC comics. 
> 
> Seriously, what exactly is being posted in that tweet that hasn't been done before? Especially in stuff like Kingdom Come? At least this Superman's absence wouldn't be a result of him throwing a kiddy fit because he wasn't top dog anymore.


I don't like the works of either Mark Waid or Alex Ross (particulariry Ross), but those two really get superheroes.
Zack Snyder? Where is there even the slightest hint in his work he understands the superhero genre?

----------


## Carabas

> I think WB should consider Plastic Man as a feature film
> 
> He's funny
> 
> off the rails
> 
> immensely powerful
> 
> and he's an FBI agent
> ...


See, that should be WB's response to Deadpool, not Michael Bay's Lobo.

----------


## ross61

Even though I don’t like it, Michael Bay is the perfect fit for Lobo.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Even though I don’t like it, Michael Bay is the perfect fit for Lobo.


Only if he shows a newfound willingness to parody himself, because that's essentially what Lobo is.

----------


## Carabas

> Even though I don’t like it, Michael Bay is the perfect fit for Lobo.


Yes, a character designed to mock everything Bay holds dear is just perfect for him.

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't like the works of either Mark Waid or Alex Ross (particulariry Ross), but those two really get superheroes.
> Zack Snyder? Where is there even the slightest hint in his work he understands the superhero genre?


If by not getting them, you mean actually focusing on what makes them heroes as opposed to just writing power fantasy self insert mouth pieces who never have to deal with in universe critics that aren't just villains or straw men, yeah I can see how that's an issue for certain superhero fans.

----------


## Baseman

> Only if he shows a newfound willingness to parody himself, because that's essentially what Lobo is.


I mean there is this video
https://youtu.be/yj9yt1M7S-8

Really not sure where this idea that Bay can't take a joke is coming from

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I mean there is this video
> https://youtu.be/yj9yt1M7S-8
> 
> Really not sure where this idea that Bay can't take a joke is coming from


True, and that's where some of my optimism comes from. I'm just curious if he can take that mindset into a feature film.




> actually focusing on what makes them heroes as opposed to just writing power fantasy self insert mouth pieces who never have to deal with in universe critics that aren't just villains or straw men


My issue is that I felt like this is what he was trying to do (in BvS), but at no point did I think he actually succeeded at either giving me a new interesting take on superheroes or an enjoyable time at the movies. 

However, there was something to it in MoS, which aside from a few rough edges I did like.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> The Ultimate Cut was an good film, the Theatrical Cut was just a mess, and the shared universe aspect was decent till those email files which was just a laughably bad idea IMO.


Yup. Exactly. It tried to jump straight into a Justice League movie without laying the proper groundwork for such a film.

----------


## gbshabo

Black Panther tracking at an 165 million dollar opening. Wow!!! Want to bet a Cyborg movie gets fast tracked.

----------


## gbshabo

> Honestly, however much we complain about what the final product of JL ended up being, this doesn't sound like it would've improved it much.


What I don't get, is this:  If any of that is true, wouldn't the script have tipped off what zack was going for. Why would WB allow the movie to film and then come back with we don't like the script? It makes zero sense. But then again, it is the WB and their level of intervention is beyond unbearable

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> For the life of me, I can't understand all this hate around BvS. It's probably the best super-heroes movies by far out there, being both an exellent movie on its own and what a shared universe should be... WB should have given carte blanche to Snyder for JL and told Whedon to change nothing and the film would have been better that what he was.


A lot of people, including me, thought it was an incoherent mess that tried to do too many things at once.  Batman fighting Superman should have been the focus of the movie with saving Martha the finale.
But Snyder also felt the need to throw in an entirely different story as the 3rd act, Doomsday and the Death of Superman. And it makes no sense to bring Whedon in for Justice Leage if not to salvage
yet another mess that Snyder made.




> I think WB should consider Plastic Man as a feature film
> 
> He's funny
> 
> off the rails
> 
> immensely powerful
> 
> and he's an FBI agent
> ...


Sounds way too similar to Elongated Man on the Flash TV show. Funny, immensely powerful, former police detective.  I could see why they would want a Flash movie even though there is a Flash TV show, 
because Flash is a major character.  But I don't think bringing a minor character to the big screen that is basically the same as a character on TV is the way to go. I sort of doubt we will see a movie version
of Green Arrow and Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Atom, or Supergirl either.




> Agreed. I understand Snyder has his fans, so him being bad or good is just going down a road we've all been down before. 
> 
> What I think both parties can agree on is that WB half assing it was terrible for everybody. They either should have axed Snyder post BvS and delayed JL or gone all in on Snyder's vision for JL. Using his leave of absence (if it even was that) as a way to make a last second pivot was just complete foolishness.





> Yup. Exactly. It tried to jump straight into a Justice League movie without laying the proper groundwork for such a film.


Apparently they had all the actors signed up, the locations reserved, all the support personnel hired, hotels, etc. So delaying things would have cost millions of dollars.  It turned out they had to spend millions more
to fix things, but it wasn't something they knew at the time. It was only after actual filming started that they saw the mess Snyder was making and realized he needed to be fired and someone else brought in.

----------


## Johnny

> Black Panther tracking at an 165 million dollar opening. Wow!!! Want to bet a Cyborg movie gets fast tracked.


Going after Marvel has done nothing for WB other than ruin great characters' reputation and lose millions of dollars. Nothing will change if they keep having this moronic reactionary mindset. They should leave BP break records and mind their own f***ing business. I understand the method of striking when the iron's hot, but they've proven time and again that they don't know how to properly do that. If WB decides to go after T'Challa too, it would be another colossal embarrassment for them and the DCU would once again pay the price for it.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Cyborg is a castrated Black Man with only Detroit as a Cultural background and the Justice League would overshadow his movie while most of his Teen Titans stuff will probably be removed. It will never have the same cultural impact or hype + BP has several decades as a solo character, a string of classic books, and has been an actual prominent leader amongst teams in comics. Cyborg so far has been super tech support aided by New God technology that will probably not really include him.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Going after Marvel has done nothing for WB other than ruin great characters' reputation and lose millions of dollars. Nothing will change if they keep having this moronic reactionary mindset. They should leave BP break records and mind their own f***ing business. I understand the method of striking when the iron's hot, but they've proven time and again that they don't know how to properly do that. If WB decides to go after T'Challa too, it would be another colossal embarrassment for them and the DCU would once again pay the price for it.


That and outside of being black T'Challa and Vic have nothing in common.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't like the works of either Mark Waid or Alex Ross (particulariry Ross), but those two really get superheroes.
> Zack Snyder? *Where is there even the slightest hint in his work he understands the superhero genre?*


In the numerous scenes and lines and character moments taken straight from iconic and celebrated works. 

It's kind of a big ask for a non-fan to watch this but I think it's borderline empirically false at this point to state that Snyder's character interpretations are far off base.

----------


## Elmo

> Sounds way too similar to Elongated Man on the Flash TV show. Funny, immensely powerful, former police detective.  I could see why they would want a Flash movie even though there is a Flash TV show, 
> because Flash is a major character.  But I don't think bringing a minor character to the big screen that is basically the same as a character on TV is the way to go. I sort of doubt we will see a movie version
> of Green Arrow and Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Atom, or Supergirl either.


I disagree completely. Just because they're in the TV shows doesn't mean we won't see them in films. The movie people don't even care about what the TV show people are doing and probably don't even know Elongated Man is on the Flash. You can tell because Zack Snyder made comments about Gustin's Flash that were completely inaccurate--simply put, he's never seen it. The goal with the films (and the shows) is to create an expansive universe. No characters are off limits for the films. 

And to be fair, Elongated Man and Plastic Man are not the same despite both being goofy and having similar powersets.

I think a film that uses the FBI agent angle for O'Brien would be perfect. Bring in this goofy hero with the goofiest powers, a man who can be anyone or anything and is practically invincible but yet a complete goofball who seems to not take anything seriously (even though he totally does) into the FBI, a very serious agency with serious views on handling missions would be a perfect superhero film and could represent the contrast of lighter and darker superhero movies.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> In the numerous scenes and lines and character moments taken straight from iconic and celebrated works. 
> 
> It's kind of a big ask for a non-fan to watch this but I think it's borderline empirically false at this point to state that Snyder's character interpretations are far off base.


I think when people say Snyder doesn't get superheroes, they mean he doesn't understand them when they were primarily for kids. I don't say this in a snarky way, BTW, since I have fond memories of my Bronze Age reading (not to mention GA and SA reprints during that same era).

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> If they were gonna keep Snyder, they should have just bitten the bullet, did what he wanted and then moved on once it released. You can't argue that what they did resulted in anything better (critically or financially). At least then it would've been artistically consistent with what came before..


Specious argument but I disagree.  Justice League had overall a better response(critics liked it overall better than BvS with the film's RT score at 40% being higher than  BvS's  abysmal 27% Tomato score) and audiences seem to have  liked it better as well given it's 'B+' Cinemascore  while BvS just got  'B' along with the fact that even though Justice League opened lower than BvS--it did better overall in terms of it's theatrical legs: Having the  lowest drop-offs for a DCEU film second to only Wonder Woman(JL never suffered the steep drops  that it's predecessor did).

Not to mention most of the praised aspects of Justice League(the humor, the opening Batman scene, the character work) were Whedon contributions which leads me to believe Snyder's version would've actually done worse  if  he were to finish and release the film the way he originally intended(critically and commercially) without the studio looking over his shoulder and meddling.Especially since there's been numerous reports of his cut of the film being only marginally lighter than BvS but still quite heavy then I imagine it not playing not too well with  audiences like what happened with BvS.  Having trailers that looked similar to the dour  BvS(which was at odds with the whole 'fun' nature of the trailers) didn't do them any favors,  imagine the actual film being  along the lines of  BvS's tone only slightly more hopeful? I think it would've been a disaster(well more of disaster at least).  It's rather telling that if you compare the initial trailers to the later ones you can see a marked  difference in visual style; the first trailers had that dour, gloomy looking de-saturated MOS/ BVS look while the last trailers had  more of a brighter, colorful look, like a lot of the Marvel films have.

It's complete conjecture to say that Snyder's cut would've been  either better or worse than what we got as that's all subjective(as well as conjecture since a Snyder Cut will not be seeing the light of day for quite some time)  but I think it's an  educated guess that it likely would've been received more negatively.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

The DC universe will still be fine when it's all said and done, they just need to hit their  stride again.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> The DC universe will still be fine when it's all said and done, they just need to find their  stride again.


Nothing they've done so far leads me to believe that the current iteration of the DCEU will be fine.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think when people say Snyder doesn't get superheroes, they mean he doesn't understand them when they were primarily for kids. I don't say this in a snarky way, BTW, since I have fond memories of my Bronze Age reading (not to mention GA and SA reprints during that same era).


I think that's a valid criticism. But there's enough kid-accessible material out there at this point and these adult characters deserve adult interpretations IMO. I know you'd agree for the most part but general audiences don't seem comfortable with it.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I think that's a valid criticism. But there's enough kid-accessible material out there at this point and these adult characters deserve adult interpretations IMO. I know you'd agree for the most part but general audiences don't seem comfortable with it.


What did he do that is "adult"? The 3 DCEU films he worked on are all PG-13 and they're not deep or profound and having no bright colors or humor doesn't make a film "adult". Deadpool has a brighter color palette and tons of humor and is way more "adult" given it's R rated, had more violence, nudity, and even torture. But the Deadpool filmmakers get who he is as a character something Snyder I don't think grasp with characters he only gets if it looks "cool" IMO.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think that's a valid criticism. But there's enough kid-accessible material out there at this point and these adult characters deserve adult interpretations IMO. I know you'd agree for the most part but general audiences don't seem comfortable with it.


I agree, LR. It might change a generation from now, but it's going to be difficult at the present time.

----------


## Elmo

PITCH: Gangster Eel O'Brien gets chemicals poured onto him years ago. Ever since then he has been operating low-key as a superhero with elasticity powers. The FBI catches onto his powers, namely his power to shape-shift and want to use it to deal with some overseas issues without calling attention to themselves or getting a more high profile superhero to do it. So they bring him in and make him a full fledged FBI agent and it would essentially be a Get Smart type of thing. Eel O'Brien acts like a complete buffoon. He's goofy and hilarious and treats the whole thing like a joke. But when the nefarious Doctor Dome unveils his dastardly plan it's time to suit up. It may be a stretch but this guy can stretch. This summer . Get ready for the stupidest action adventure comedy of your lifetime. Watch as Eel O'Brien turns himself into a rocket ship and flies to stop nuclear warheads from destroying Texas. Gasp as Eel battles the dastardly DEADBOLT, and punches him with his massive fist the size of a mack truck . Strap in for an epic ride as Eel O'Brien turns into a racecar and chases villains through the busy streets of Fawcett City. Watch as this slimy gangster gets put to the ultimate test and truly becomes the All Star known as Plastic Man

----------


## gbshabo

> That and outside of being black T'Challa and Vic have nothing in common.


Other than being a Woman Wonder Woman and black widow have nothing in common. But the success of the Wonder Woman movie open the door for Black Widow and Captain Marvel to be made. My point I was making was simply that now that a black superhero is smashing box office records the doorway will be opened. And I think that's a great thing

----------


## Elmo

Cyborg is not marketable as a franchise. If WB wants to make a DC movie with a black character they should use ICON. He has a black supporting cast and he doesn't age so he has seen the entire history of blacks in America, civil rights movements, black lives matter, etc. He's lived through it all since the 1800s at least and he is a black man as powerful as Superman who is a rich and successful corporate lawyer. WB would be stupid not to make a movie franchise with ICON

----------


## gbshabo

> Cyborg is not marketable as a franchise. If WB wants to make a DC movie with a black character they should use ICON. He has a black supporting cast and he doesn't age so he has seen the entire history of blacks in America, civil rights movements, black lives matter, etc. He's lived through it all since the 1800s at least and he is a black man as powerful as Superman who is a rich and successful corporate lawyer. WB would be stupid not to make a movie franchise with ICON


Wouldn't static be a better character from Milestone to make the big screen. More recognizable, youthful energy about him, and much more marketable at the box office?

----------


## Baseman

> Wouldn't static be a better character from Milestone to make the big screen. More recognizable, youthful energy about him, and much more marketable at the box office?


Too young.And DC tends not to push characters they don't 100% own.So I doubt they'll be willing to push either of them to that level

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Other than being a Woman Wonder Woman and black widow have nothing in common. But the success of the Wonder Woman movie open the door for Black Widow and Captain Marvel to be made. My point I was making was simply that now that a black superhero is smashing box office records the doorway will be opened. And I think that's a great thing


Captain Marvel was originally announced along with Black Panther as being part of the Marvel Phase 3 slate in 2014. It was going to be made regardless of whether WW happened or not.  Kevin Feige stated his intention to make a Black Widow movie  before  WW was even released.

----------


## Elmo

> Wouldn't static be a better character from Milestone to make the big screen. More recognizable, youthful energy about him, and much more marketable at the box office?


I think Icon is more marketable but they could honestly do a whole Milestone franchise within the DCEU

----------


## Barbatos666

> If by not getting them, you mean actually focusing on what makes them heroes as opposed to just writing power fantasy self insert mouth pieces who never have to deal with in universe critics that aren't just villains or straw men, yeah I can see how that's an issue for certain superhero fans.


Dude just stop, who are you to tell someone that they should like Zack Snyder's take on superheroes. Many of us dont.
You talk about strawmen but you cant see the irony here. You and certain others like him that's cool but others like myself dont and we dont need to be reminded every 5 seconds that he's some intellectual visionary who really understands superheroes but because of Whedon,Goyer, Paramount, WB, Disney, paid critics, Tsujihara, fans like myself and pretty much everyone but his own fanbase has a vendetta against him. He was given multiple chances and he got worse with each.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

So more of that Superman scene has leaked via video and images...

Low quality camrip but if you're interested:

"He said you'd come... now let's hope you're not too late."

Haven't found a vid of the other leak yet which is Clark putting the suit on in a callback to MoS.

----------


## Agent Z

> Dude just stop, who are you to tell someone that they should like Zack Snyder's take on superheroes. Many of us dont.
> You talk about strawmen but you cant see the irony here. You and certain others like him that's cool but others like myself dont and we dont need to be reminded every 5 seconds that he's some intellectual visionary who really understands superheroes but because of Whedon,Goyer, Paramount, WB, Disney, paid critics, Tsujihara, fans like myself and pretty much everyone but his own fanbase has a vendetta against him. He was given multiple chances and he got worse with each.


When did I say anyone should like his take? I called out the reasons for it and argued against them. I also called out specifically a comment that was in response to an out of context description of a script that hadn't apparently been put into film yet people felt the need to criticise it. If you've got a problem with your opinions being disputed maybe stay off the net. I'm certainly not trying to dictate what does or doesn't count as a take on superheroes nor am I discussing the critics, Whedon or whoever else. Try taking your own advice for once.

----------


## Confuzzled

Static would be fun if they are allowed to make a solo movie for him but Vixen is the best choice.

----------


## Carabas

> In the numerous scenes and lines and character moments taken straight from iconic and celebrated works. 
> 
> It's kind of a big ask for a non-fan to watch this but I think it's borderline empirically false at this point to state that Snyder's character interpretations are far off base.


Yeah, he's really good at copying imagery. We know that. It was basically the entire concept of his version of Watchmen.

That is not the same as understanding the genre.

----------


## Robotman

> I think Icon is more marketable but they could honestly do a whole Milestone franchise within the DCEU


I like Icon but he’s far too similar to Superman and they already have another Superman doppelgänger in Captain Marvel/Shazam on the way to the big screen. 

I think Static is the only other black superhero who could generate a fraction of the excitement that Black Panther has right now.

----------


## Elmo

> I like Icon but he’s far too similar to Superman and they already have another Superman doppelgänger in Captain Marvel/Shazam on the way to the big screen. 
> 
> I think Static is the only other black superhero who could generate a fraction of the excitement that Black Panther has right now.


The point is that he's a Superman analogue who is black . that is literally the point

and to be fair, people don't watch superhero movies for the powersets

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think that's a valid criticism. But there's enough kid-accessible material out there at this point and these adult characters deserve adult interpretations IMO. I know you'd agree for the most part but general audiences don't seem comfortable with it.


I think Zack Snyder was trying to make high quality adult/serious interpretations of these heroes, my issue is outside of MoS (and even that had its issues) he did not succeed.

I don't think anybody thinks that tons of humor and light heartedness is the only way to adapt these characters.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Specious argument but I disagree.  Justice League had overall a better response(critics liked it overall better than BvS with the film's RT score at 40% being higher than  BvS's  abysmal 27% Tomato score) and audiences seem to have  liked it better as well given it's 'B+' Cinemascore  while BvS just got  'B' along with the fact that even though Justice League opened lower than BvS--it did better overall in terms of it's theatrical legs: Having the  lowest drop-offs for a DCEU film second to only Wonder Woman(JL never suffered the steep drops  that it's predecessor did).
> 
> Not to mention most of the praised aspects of Justice League(the humor, the opening Batman scene, the character work) were Whedon contributions which leads me to believe Snyder's version would've actually done worse  if  he were to finish and release the film the way he originally intended(critically and commercially) without the studio looking over his shoulder and meddling.Especially since there's been numerous reports of his cut of the film being only marginally lighter than BvS but still quite heavy then I imagine it not playing not too well with  audiences like what happened with BvS.  Having trailers that looked similar to the dour  BvS(which was at odds with the whole 'fun' nature of the trailers) didn't do them any favors,  imagine the actual film being  along the lines of  BvS's tone only slightly more hopeful? I think it would've been a disaster(well more of disaster at least).  It's rather telling that if you compare the initial trailers to the later ones you can see a marked  difference in visual style; the first trailers had that dour, gloomy looking de-saturated MOS/ BVS look while the last trailers had  more of a brighter, colorful look, like a lot of the Marvel films have.
> 
> It's complete conjecture to say that Snyder's cut would've been  either better or worse than what we got as that's all subjective(as well as conjecture since a Snyder Cut will not be seeing the light of day for quite some time)  but I think it's an  educated guess that it likely would've been received more negatively.


Very well met! I hadn't heard some of those figures, especially regarding JL's drops. It seemed like the story with its box office started and ended with the first week's BO. So it's nice to see that there was a bit more of a silver lining (financially) than had been discussed.

In terms of critical reception, it's very possible (if not likely) that Snyder's cut would've been received worse than the version we got, but the nature of the transition and how they handled the film afterward seemed to color perceptions of it prior to release. It just seems like the film might've had a better chance without all that turmoil and baggage going into it, regardless of the quality of the final product. Of course, we'll never know which one was better unless they actually release a Snyder cut down the line, which is looking less and less likely, and we'll never know how a Synder cut would've done theatrically.

Again, I say that as a guy who *really* enjoyed _Justice League_.




> So more of that Superman scene has leaked via video and images...
> 
> Low quality camrip but if you're interested:
> "He said you'd come... now let's hope you're not too late."
> 
> Haven't found a vid of the other leak yet which is Clark putting the suit on in a callback to MoS.


See, why couldn't they have left that in the movie? It's not like it was that long a clip, and it was nice to see Supes and Alfred meet.

Still holding out hope thet they'll eventually release some sort of extended edition (not a Synder cut necessarily, just extended) that integrates some of these nice moments that got hacked out.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> What did he do that is "adult"? The 3 DCEU films he worked on are all PG-13 and they're not deep or profound and having no bright colors or humor doesn't make a film "adult". Deadpool has a brighter color palette and tons of humor and is way more "adult" given it's R rated, had more violence, nudity, and even torture. But the Deadpool filmmakers get who he is as a character something Snyder I don't think grasp with characters he only gets if it looks "cool" IMO.


Political debates about the existence of superheroes and vigilantes are adult. Depictions of tragedy, trauma, and paranoia are adult. Questions of identity and isolation from Humanity are adult. Emotional responses to death are adult.

Snyder gets the broad range of interpretations that weve seen in countless celebrated works. These arent one dimensional characters. He fleshed them out with character choices wholly consistent with many iconic works.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think Zack Snyder was trying to make high quality adult/serious interpretations of these heroes, my issue is outside of MoS (and even that had its issues) he did not succeed.
> 
> I don't think anybody thinks that tons of humor and light heartedness is the only way to adapt these characters.


Criticisms with the execution are fair, but a substantial subset of fans and movie goers really do want lightheartedness with only gritty antihéroes being acceptable exceptions.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

I get was Snyder did with his DC movies in terms of deconstruction and having Superman's symbolic status being earned and not given (shown by the transition of darkness to light seen across his three films), but the problem with using that derivation for the basis of a movie universe is that his version is the only version of these characters (theatrically speaking).

So people who don't like that take are, essentially, left out in the cold, which is why a lot of these characters are distilled to their purest form (when done well, anyway) when put on the big screen: it gives everyone the type of character they're used to, regardless of the actual character specifics. I'm wholly of the opinion that this universe would've been a lot better received had it been an Elseworlds GN or some other, clearly alternate universe instead of *the* universe.

Hopefully that comes across clearly...

*EDIT:* Put another way, _Injustice_ is well-received because there are other, more traditional Superman comics out there. If _Injustice_ was the only Superman comic available, people would be having a sh!t hemorrhage.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I get was Snyder did with his DC movies in terms of deconstruction and having Superman's symbolic status being earned and not given (shown by the transition of darkness to light seen across his three films), but the problem with using that derivation for the basis of a movie universe is that his version is the only version of these characters (theatrically speaking).
> 
> So people who don't like that take are, essentially, left out in the cold, which is why a lot of these characters are distilled to their purest form (when done well, anyway) when put on the big screen: it gives everyone the type of character they're used to, regardless of the actual character specifics. I'm wholly of the opinion that this universe would've been a lot better received had it been an Elseworlds GN or some other, clearly alternate universe instead of *the* universe.
> 
> Hopefully that comes across clearly...
> 
> *EDIT:* Put another way, _Injustice_ is well-received because there are other, more traditional Superman comics out there. If _Injustice_ was the only Superman comic available, people would be having a sh!t hemorrhage.


I dont think youre far off. When you deconstruct a character like that, unless you perfectly succeed in reconstructing them in the broader narrative, youre going to turn off certain people. The sweet spot median is usually safest.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I like Icon but he’s far too similar to Superman and they already have another Superman doppelgänger in Captain Marvel/Shazam on the way to the big screen. 
> 
> I think Static is the only other black superhero who could generate a fraction of the excitement that Black Panther has right now.


I think it was a  missed opportunity to  have Cyborg instead of John Stewart as the black superhero on the group.  If they had gone the Timm-verse route and had the John Stewart iteration of Green Lantern be a founding member of the Justice League then they could use JL as the  possible springboard for the solo Green Lantern film.  Making Cyborg a founding member of the Justice League  was a mistake since that Cyborg film will likely never happen(okay, DC might fast-track it after BP's inevitable success since they're so reactive) but still I argue they'd be better off going with Stewart.

----------


## Agent Z

> I get was Snyder did with his DC movies in terms of deconstruction and having Superman's symbolic status being earned and not given (shown by the transition of darkness to light seen across his three films), but the problem with using that derivation for the basis of a movie universe is that his version is the only version of these characters (theatrically speaking).
> 
> So people who don't like that take are, essentially, left out in the cold, which is why a lot of these characters are distilled to their purest form (when done well, anyway) when put on the big screen: it gives everyone the type of character they're used to, regardless of the actual character specifics. I'm wholly of the opinion that this universe would've been a lot better received had it been an Elseworlds GN or some other, clearly alternate universe instead of *the* universe.
> 
> Hopefully that comes across clearly...
> 
> *EDIT:* Put another way, _Injustice_ is well-received because there are other, more traditional Superman comics out there. If _Injustice_ was the only Superman comic available, people would be having a sh!t hemorrhage.


An adaptation is as much of an elseworld as anything else because there will still be changes to canon. And it isn't like DCEU Superman is the only movie version of Superman to exist. He wasn't even the only live action version of Superman at the time. And there being more comics than Injustice hadn't stopped comic fans from hating it.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> An adaptation is as much of an elseworld as anything else because there will still be changes to canon.


Agreed.




> And it isn't like DCEU Superman is the only movie version of Superman to exist.


True, but he is the only cinematic Superman with new movies coming out, which is what I meant when I said that the Snyderverse is *the*  movie universe right now.




> And there being more comics than Injustice hadn't stopped comic fans from hating it.


I've heard good things about the comic: was it just never well received, or did it just run outta steam? It seems like the latter is very possible because it was initially set as a prequel to the first game: I don't know what they did in regards to the second game.

----------


## Robotman

Darkseid storyboard for Justice League scene. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/02/13/d...er-storyboard/

So pissed off that they cut this.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Darkseid storyboard for Justice League scene. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/02/13/d...er-storyboard/
> 
> So pissed off that they cut this.


Agreed. If there was one big gripe I had with JL (outside of the choppy first act), it was that they didn't pay off or even allude to the knightmare sequence. This sounds like it would've been awesome.

----------


## Elmo

Justice League is an awful film from start to finish and I think it's pretty clear that absolutely nothing in it was Zack Snyder's idea. That man is a cinematic poet. His films are distinctly his, his art, his vision, and he has so much love and passion for it. You can tell he's an inspired and talented filmmaker because he's not only knowledgeable but capable. The only "bad" thing he's ever done is pissed off some fanboys. He is a masterful director and I can't wait to see more of his work in the future. 

That being said Justice League was clearly not his movie. The entire story is a complete mess. There is ZERO fluidity between the scenes and the characters. Characters interact with each other and don't even appear on screen together. Nothing about the mother boxes was accurate to the comics. All of the immensely profound emotional moments and philosophical dialogue/themes from MoS and BvS were completely lacking in JL. Batman is the worst he's ever been characterized in any film ever because he is never consistent. He goes from dark broody loner to silver age wisecracking Bats like it's nothing and there is no sense of the timeline from BvS and SS. It's just a ridiculous movie that clearly was STOLEN from Zack Snyder who probably had a really incredible vision. Instead what we got was a studio simply trying to market the Justice League brand and not actually tell any story that made sense or fit with any other DC Comics media. 

I honestly think people that say the movie is good are lying. Maybe you like it, because I can definitely see it as pure entertainment since there are some delightful action scenes and fun character moments. But the movie is absolutely abysmal from start to finish and this is coming from someone who considers Man of Steel and BvS to be the greatest superhero films ever made and someone who walked out of Suicide Squad not hating it one bit. There is not even a SEMBLANCE of a decent film in there. No "director's cut" is going to make it any better. It is a tonal mess with a story ripped out of some big wig's asshole. Zack probably wanted to make a good film but it does NOT exist because it was never made. WB got antsy after BvS and took control of the project completely so even though he directed some scenes the movie was never his.

Zack Snyder is an amazing man and amazing filmmaker who just wanted to make the films of his dreams but with his vision. People act like he ever owed them anything. He's an artist out to make HIS art and he will continue to do so whether it's with WB or not.

----------


## golgi

Lying? LOL I enjoyed JL for the most part. It's not as good as a bunch of SH movies, but it's still better than the average one. It's somewhat hollow, but the action and interactions between some of the characters are really good. It's something I'd only see once, but most movies I only see once, anyway.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Darkseid storyboard for Justice League scene. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/02/13/d...er-storyboard/
> 
> So pissed off that they cut this.


This being cut from the film is fine especially in light of how poorly JL performed.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> This being cut from the film is fine especially in light of how poorly JL performed.


I'm not sure how the movie's performance affects the presence of this scene. I know it wouldn't have affected the movie's gross, but it would have been cool to see and would have provided a through line to what was one of the more talked about scenes in BvS.

Of course, knowing now how the movie performed, it's likely that scene would just be viewed as a narrative dead-end considering the potentially-not-happening _Justice League 2_, but at least we'd have seen Darkseid!

*EDIT:* Also, this implementation of the scene sounds better than the "Steppenwolf tries to tempt Superman before getting his @$$ KO'd" variant Kevin Smith talked about.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Justice League is an awful film from start to finish and I think it's pretty clear that absolutely nothing in it was Zack Snyder's idea. That man is a cinematic poet. His films are distinctly his, his art, his vision, and he has so much love and passion for it. You can tell he's an inspired and talented filmmaker because he's not only knowledgeable but capable. The only "bad" thing he's ever done is pissed off some fanboys. He is a masterful director and I can't wait to see more of his work in the future. 
> 
> That being said Justice League was clearly not his movie. The entire story is a complete mess. There is ZERO fluidity between the scenes and the characters. Characters interact with each other and don't even appear on screen together. Nothing about the mother boxes was accurate to the comics. All of the immensely profound emotional moments and philosophical dialogue/themes from MoS and BvS were completely lacking in JL. Batman is the worst he's ever been characterized in any film ever because he is never consistent. He goes from dark broody loner to silver age wisecracking Bats like it's nothing and there is no sense of the timeline from BvS and SS. It's just a ridiculous movie that clearly was STOLEN from Zack Snyder who probably had a really incredible vision. Instead what we got was a studio simply trying to market the Justice League brand and not actually tell any story that made sense or fit with any other DC Comics media. 
> 
> I honestly think people that say the movie is good are lying. Maybe you like it, because I can definitely see it as pure entertainment since there are some delightful action scenes and fun character moments. But the movie is absolutely abysmal from start to finish and this is coming from someone who considers Man of Steel and BvS to be the greatest superhero films ever made and someone who walked out of Suicide Squad not hating it one bit. There is not even a SEMBLANCE of a decent film in there. No "director's cut" is going to make it any better. It is a tonal mess with a story ripped out of some big wig's asshole. Zack probably wanted to make a good film but it does NOT exist because it was never made. WB got antsy after BvS and took control of the project completely so even though he directed some scenes the movie was never his.
> 
> Zack Snyder is an amazing man and amazing filmmaker who just wanted to make the films of his dreams but with his vision. People act like he ever owed them anything. He's an artist out to make HIS art and he will continue to do so whether it's with WB or not.


I liked Justice League a lot more than Batman v Superman or Man of Steel.   If Justice League were like those movie I probably wouldn't have liked it either.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Justice League is an awful film from start to finish and I think it's pretty clear that absolutely nothing in it was Zack Snyder's idea. That man is a cinematic poet. His films are distinctly his, his art, his vision, and he has so much love and passion for it. You can tell he's an inspired and talented filmmaker because he's not only knowledgeable but capable. The only "bad" thing he's ever done is pissed off some fanboys. He is a masterful director and I can't wait to see more of his work in the future. 
> 
> That being said Justice League was clearly not his movie. The entire story is a complete mess. There is ZERO fluidity between the scenes and the characters. Characters interact with each other and don't even appear on screen together. Nothing about the mother boxes was accurate to the comics. All of the immensely profound emotional moments and philosophical dialogue/themes from MoS and BvS were completely lacking in JL. Batman is the worst he's ever been characterized in any film ever because he is never consistent. He goes from dark broody loner to silver age wisecracking Bats like it's nothing and there is no sense of the timeline from BvS and SS. It's just a ridiculous movie that clearly was STOLEN from Zack Snyder who probably had a really incredible vision. Instead what we got was a studio simply trying to market the Justice League brand and not actually tell any story that made sense or fit with any other DC Comics media. 
> 
> I honestly think people that say the movie is good are lying. Maybe you like it, because I can definitely see it as pure entertainment since there are some delightful action scenes and fun character moments. But the movie is absolutely abysmal from start to finish and this is coming from someone who considers Man of Steel and BvS to be the greatest superhero films ever made and someone who walked out of Suicide Squad not hating it one bit. There is not even a SEMBLANCE of a decent film in there. No "director's cut" is going to make it any better. It is a tonal mess with a story ripped out of some big wig's asshole. Zack probably wanted to make a good film but it does NOT exist because it was never made. WB got antsy after BvS and took control of the project completely so even though he directed some scenes the movie was never his.
> 
> Zack Snyder is an amazing man and amazing filmmaker who just wanted to make the films of his dreams but with his vision. People act like he ever owed them anything. He's an artist out to make HIS art and he will continue to do so whether it's with WB or not.


I'm not lying when I say that I like _Justice League_. It's by no means perfect and did seem tonally disconnected to MoS and BvS, but I enjoyed the heck out of it. I'm going to see it again at the dollar theatre by my house tonight (I don't buy movies digitally, so I have to wait another few weeks before I can own it).

While your opinion of Snyder is far higher than mine, part of me is disappointed that he couldn't finish things his way, especially considering the circumstances under which he left the project. Them maintaining a bit more of what he'd planned would've been ok, too.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Justice League is an awful film from start to finish and I think it's pretty clear that absolutely nothing in it was Zack Snyder's idea. That man is a cinematic poet. His films are distinctly his, his art, his vision, and he has so much love and passion for it. You can tell he's an inspired and talented filmmaker because he's not only knowledgeable but capable. The only "bad" thing he's ever done is pissed off some fanboys. He is a masterful director and I can't wait to see more of his work in the future. 
> 
> That being said Justice League was clearly not his movie. The entire story is a complete mess. There is ZERO fluidity between the scenes and the characters. Characters interact with each other and don't even appear on screen together. Nothing about the mother boxes was accurate to the comics. All of the immensely profound emotional moments and philosophical dialogue/themes from MoS and BvS were completely lacking in JL. Batman is the worst he's ever been characterized in any film ever because he is never consistent. He goes from dark broody loner to silver age wisecracking Bats like it's nothing and there is no sense of the timeline from BvS and SS. It's just a ridiculous movie that clearly was STOLEN from Zack Snyder who probably had a really incredible vision. Instead what we got was a studio simply trying to market the Justice League brand and not actually tell any story that made sense or fit with any other DC Comics media. 
> 
> I honestly think people that say the movie is good are lying. Maybe you like it, because I can definitely see it as pure entertainment since there are some delightful action scenes and fun character moments. But the movie is absolutely abysmal from start to finish and this is coming from someone who considers Man of Steel and BvS to be the greatest superhero films ever made and someone who walked out of Suicide Squad not hating it one bit. There is not even a SEMBLANCE of a decent film in there. No "director's cut" is going to make it any better. It is a tonal mess with a story ripped out of some big wig's asshole. Zack probably wanted to make a good film but it does NOT exist because it was never made. WB got antsy after BvS and took control of the project completely so even though he directed some scenes the movie was never his.
> 
> Zack Snyder is an amazing man and amazing filmmaker who just wanted to make the films of his dreams but with his vision. People act like he ever owed them anything. He's an artist out to make HIS art and he will continue to do so whether it's with WB or not.


"Cinematic Poet" More like more like Cinematic Graffiti Artist paints over others properties and sometimes it pretty and sometimes it just dumb and garish.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Lying? LOL I enjoyed JL for the most part. It's not as good as a bunch of SH movies, but it's still better than the average one. It's somewhat hollow, but the action and interactions between some of the characters are really good. It's something I'd only see once, but most movies I only see once, anyway.


It is great how some worshippers will speak about the true intentions of others.  If they liked BvS that is fine... but only the delusional will deny that it put the brakes on the DCEU in its infancy.  Most didn't like BvS and it showed with JL's box office.  To call it the best superhero movie ever made is ridiculous and an opinion that would not be shared by anyone other than the Snyder worshippers.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yeah, I'll acknowledge that BvS is going to be a cult classic (in the literal sense, not like how some call Pulp Fiction a cult classic), but that's not what WB or most fans wanted it to be.

----------


## Frontier

> Sounds way too similar to Elongated Man on the Flash TV show. Funny, immensely powerful, former police detective.  I could see why they would want a Flash movie even though there is a Flash TV show, 
> because Flash is a major character.  But I don't think bringing a minor character to the big screen that is basically the same as a character on TV is the way to go. I sort of doubt we will see a movie version
> of Green Arrow and Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Atom, or Supergirl either.





> I disagree completely. Just because they're in the TV shows doesn't mean we won't see them in films. The movie people don't even care about what the TV show people are doing and probably don't even know Elongated Man is on the Flash. You can tell because Zack Snyder made comments about Gustin's Flash that were completely inaccurate--simply put, he's never seen it. The goal with the films (and the shows) is to create an expansive universe. No characters are off limits for the films. 
> 
> And to be fair, Elongated Man and Plastic Man are not the same despite both being goofy and having similar powersets.
> 
> I think a film that uses the FBI agent angle for O'Brien would be perfect. Bring in this goofy hero with the goofiest powers, a man who can be anyone or anything and is practically invincible but yet a complete goofball who seems to not take anything seriously (even though he totally does) into the FBI, a very serious agency with serious views on handling missions would be a perfect superhero film and could represent the contrast of lighter and darker superhero movies.


Maybe a Plastic Man movie would inspire the writers on _The Flash_ to write Ralph less like O'Brien and more like...y'know, the actual Elongated Man. 



> Political debates about the existence of superheroes and vigilantes are adult. *Depictions of tragedy, trauma, and paranoia are adult. Questions of identity and isolation from Humanity are adult. Emotional responses to death are adult.*


I think everything bolded is universal more then it is "adult," if only because I've seen content aimed at kids that have addressed those subjects, including Superhero cartoons even. 



> An adaptation is as much of an elseworld as anything else because there will still be changes to canon. And it isn't like DCEU Superman is the only movie version of Superman to exist. He wasn't even the only live action version of Superman at the time. And there being more comics than Injustice hadn't stopped comic fans from hating it.


I tend to differentiate an adaption from an Elseworlds because an adaption, while obviously a different universe in it's own right, is generally meant to take from the source material and distill in some form for audiences. 

An Elseworld is generally just meant to be kind of different or spin things in a different way. 

But I guess it can be a fine line between the two. 



> Darkseid storyboard for Justice League scene. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/02/13/d...er-storyboard/
> 
> So pissed off that they cut this.


Honestly the Hall of Justice nod does more for me then Darkseid  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Ah well, at least we got a live-action Hall of Justice in the Invasion! Crossover.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> I'm not sure how the movie's performance affects the presence of this scene. I know it wouldn't have affected the movie's gross, but it would have been cool to see and would have provided a through line to what was one of the more talked about scenes in BvS.
> 
> Of course, knowing now how the movie performed, it's likely that scene would just be viewed as a narrative dead-end considering the potentially-not-happening _Justice League 2_, but at least we'd have seen Darkseid!
> 
> *EDIT:* Also, this implementation of the scene sounds better than the "Steppenwolf tries to tempt Superman before getting his @$$ KO'd" variant Kevin Smith talked about.



I'm talking about in hindsight given the alterations made to JL in light of BvS's under-performance.  It was probably a good call to excise the Darkseid  set-up since JL (as it was originally conceived) was never going to be a standalone story that tied up all the loose ends in one neat  bow but part of a two-part epic; continuing to grow the story seeds planted in BvS. Once BvS was received the way it did, they decided to scrap all the world-building since it's simply setting up for a  sequel that will never see the light of day.   The ghost of BvS haunted Justice League which gravely hindered audience anticipation  for the film--leading to overall audience indifference,  causing  it's lackluster box office.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Justice League is an awful film from start to finish and I think it's pretty clear that absolutely nothing in it was Zack Snyder's idea. That man is a cinematic poet. His films are distinctly his, his art, his vision, and he has so much love and passion for it. You can tell he's an inspired and talented filmmaker because he's not only knowledgeable but capable. The only "bad" thing he's ever done is pissed off some fanboys. He is a masterful director and I can't wait to see more of his work in the future. 
> 
> That being said Justice League was clearly not his movie. The entire story is a complete mess. There is ZERO fluidity between the scenes and the characters. Characters interact with each other and don't even appear on screen together. Nothing about the mother boxes was accurate to the comics. All of the immensely profound emotional moments and philosophical dialogue/themes from MoS and BvS were completely lacking in JL. Batman is the worst he's ever been characterized in any film ever because he is never consistent. He goes from dark broody loner to silver age wisecracking Bats like it's nothing and there is no sense of the timeline from BvS and SS. It's just a ridiculous movie that clearly was STOLEN from Zack Snyder who probably had a really incredible vision. Instead what we got was a studio simply trying to market the Justice League brand and not actually tell any story that made sense or fit with any other DC Comics media. 
> 
> I honestly think people that say the movie is good are lying. Maybe you like it, because I can definitely see it as pure entertainment since there are some delightful action scenes and fun character moments. But the movie is absolutely abysmal from start to finish and this is coming from someone who considers Man of Steel and BvS to be the greatest superhero films ever made and someone who walked out of Suicide Squad not hating it one bit. There is not even a SEMBLANCE of a decent film in there. No "director's cut" is going to make it any better. It is a tonal mess with a story ripped out of some big wig's asshole. Zack probably wanted to make a good film but it does NOT exist because it was never made. WB got antsy after BvS and took control of the project completely so even though he directed some scenes the movie was never his.
> 
> Zack Snyder is an amazing man and amazing filmmaker who just wanted to make the films of his dreams but with his vision. People act like he ever owed them anything. He's an artist out to make HIS art and he will continue to do so whether it's with WB or not.


I actually loved JL when i watched it for the first time. I will get the Blu-Ray and see if my opinion has changed by much. In my opinion it was an enjoyable film. Character interactions and action sequences were pretty good. As of now we are kind of spoiled by wonderful superhero films. There are people who love Snyder's films. And a lot of people enjoy the MCU offerings. Had this film come out at 2007 it would most probably be looked upon as a lot better. As of now its more average as the bar has been set really high in comic book movie genre. 

It sucks that you did not enjoy JL. But its okay. I enjoyed it a lot more then BvS and MoS. In my opinion MoS was a good film. And BvS was good looking. I can't deny the good visuals of BvS. It varies from person to person. Glad that you love these two films so much.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> I'm talking about in hindsight given the alterations made to JL in light of BvS's under-performance.  It was probably a good call to excise the Darkseid  set-up since JL (as it was originally conceived) was never going to be a standalone story that tied up all the loose ends in one neat  bow but part of a two-part epic; continuing to grow the story seeds planted in BvS. Once BvS was received the way it did, they decided to scrap all the world-building since it's simply setting up for a  sequel that will never see the light of day.   The ghost of BvS haunted Justice League which gravely hindered audience anticipation  for the film--leading to overall audience indifference,  causing  it's lackluster box office.


I absolutely agree with the reasoning: I just really wanted to see Darkseid.

 :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Yeahhh can't bring myself to buy JL, would just be a bad reminder. 

A shame but eh not really bothered tbh, comic book movies have lost that spark now imo.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I honestly haven't seen it yet, but plan to check it out once I can rent it. 

Meanwhile, I'm still excited for most CBMs. Marvel's quantity is a bit overwhelming at times, but its nice that like comics I can just pick and choose the characters I'm interested in (so excited for BP) and then check out the "event" every 3-4 years.

----------


## Elmo

> Yeahhh can't bring myself to buy JL, would just be a bad reminder. 
> 
> A shame but eh not really bothered tbh, comic book movies have lost that spark now imo.


I agree, the fatigue is setting in

----------


## FlashEarthOne

If fatigue is settling in the movie going audience hasn't gotten that memo.  Just look at Black Panther's tracking numbers, the excitement for Deadpool 2 and Infinity War.   Where fatigue had clearly settled in was the general audience's desire to see Zach Snyder DC movies.  Black Panther's opening numbers are going to smoke JL's.  That is sad.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think Zack Snyder was trying to make high quality adult/serious interpretations of these heroes, my issue is outside of MoS (and even that had its issues) he did not succeed.


The best of inentions mean little without the proper execution.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The best of inentions mean little without the proper execution.


Pretty much sums it up.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> I honestly haven't seen it yet, but plan to check it out once I can rent it. 
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm still excited for most CBMs. Marvel's quantity is a bit overwhelming at times, but its nice that like comics I can just pick and choose the characters I'm interested in (so excited for BP) and then check out the "event" every 3-4 years.


Same here. I haven't seen JL yet but I will once I can rent it. Starting with BP, I'm being more selective about what I see. If I'm excited for it, I'll go. If not, I'll wait.

----------


## Carabas

> I agree, the fatigue is setting in


I can"t bring myself to watch Justice League for free, but I'm still very excited by the pre-ordered Thor: Ragnarok bluray Amazon is sending my way one of these weeks.

----------


## Styles

New Shazam! Set Photos Tease A Connection To Gotham City

----------


## Elmo

> I can"t bring myself to watch Justice League for free, but I'm still very excited by the pre-ordered Thor: Ragnarok bluray Amazon is sending my way one of these weeks.


uhh okay? did I ask?

----------


## Comic Book Addict

> New ‘Shazam!’ Set Photos Tease A Connection To Gotham City


Well, my interest is piqued.

----------


## Carabas

> uhh okay? did I ask?


Sort of. Public forum?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Wait one freaking minute. Shazam is set in Philly and not Fawcett City? Wtf.

----------


## Elmo

> Sort of. Public forum?


I don't care about what Amazon is sending you . stay on topic

----------


## The True Detective

> If fatigue is settling in the movie going audience hasn't gotten that memo.  Just look at Black Panther's tracking numbers, the excitement for Deadpool 2 and Infinity War.   Where fatigue had clearly settled in was the general audience's desire to see Zach Snyder DC movies.  Black Panther's opening numbers are going to smoke JL's.  That is sad.


You say that like Black Panther's numbers aren't going to smoke ALL 2017 superhero movie openings. I know JL's box office was disappointing but it's not like it's the only recent superhero movie Black Panther will open bigger than.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I don't care about what Amazon is sending you . stay on topic


You mentioned Fatigue with Comic book movies one person mentioned the excitement for Black Panther and another mentioned they were looking forward to getting their copy of Thor Ragnarok meaning they don't have comic book fatigue it was completely on topic.  I agree with the idea there is no comic book fatigue given the excitement for Black Panther and Infinity War. Is there bad comic book movie fatigue? Sure but people hate bad movies period and that's never going to end.

----------


## Barbatos666

> You say that like Black Panther's numbers aren't going to smoke ALL 2017 superhero movie openings. I know JL's box office was disappointing but it's not like it's the only recent superhero movie Black Panther will open bigger than.


JL has Superman and Batman, its freaking Justice League. There is no comicbook movie fatigue, there's just bad films fatigue.

----------


## Elmo

> You mentioned Fatigue with Comic book movies one person mentioned the excitement for Black Panther and another mentioned they were looking forward to getting their copy of Thor Ragnarok meaning they don't have comic book fatigue it was completely on topic.  I agree with the idea there is no comic book fatigue given the excitement for Black Panther and Infinity War. Is there bad comic book movie fatigue? Sure but people hate bad movies period and that's never going to end.


okay but I was talking about myself not "people" strictly myself so anything that's not referring to myself and my own feelings in that context would be off topic

----------


## El_Gato

> JL has Superman and Batman, its freaking Justice League. There is no comicbook movie fatigue, there's just bad films fatigue.


Names are meaningless now a days. The audience doesn't care about A-list vs B-list...etc. Unlike with comics, quality matters and a good film will attract a large audience (and talent).

----------


## Jokerz79

> Names are meaningless now a days. The audience doesn't care about A-list vs B-list...etc. Unlike with comics, quality matters and a good film will attract a large audience (and talent).


While agree quality matter I also disagree I even that people caring is one of the things that hurt the DCEU. Take the MCU characters most are blank slates to the General Audience and they'll accept any interpretation of the characters. While the DC Trinity have in America at least been part of the lexicon for decades with serials, radio shows, cartoons, TV shows, films, books, comics, video games, and various merchandise. They're part of Americana like baseball and people have expectations for these characters I mean look at the reactions to MoS and BvS a lot of complaints about the interpretations of Batman and Superman.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> You say that like Black Panther's numbers aren't going to smoke ALL 2017 superhero movie openings. I know JL's box office was disappointing but it's not like it's the only recent superhero movie Black Panther will open bigger than.


Okay let's put it this way.  if anyone would have said that Black Panther would smash JL opening weekend we would have called them crazy.  Actually what superhero movie in 2017 didn't outperform JL in 2017?  You can thank BvS and the Snyder brand name for that.  I also mentioned Deadpool 2 and Infinity War to further demonstrate the point that comic book movie fatigue is a myth.  Now Snyder superhero movie fatigue... that has some serious evidence to it that a few select fans conveniently ignore or spin.  Why not... some people seriously think the world is flat.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> JL has Superman and Batman, its freaking Justice League. There is no comicbook movie fatigue, there's just bad films fatigue.


Having the same director, writer and producers as BvS did NOT help Justice League.  It is that simple.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Okay let's put it this way.  if anyone would have said that Black Panther would smash JL opening weekend we would have called them crazy.  Actually what superhero movie in 2017 didn't outperform JL in 2017?  You can thank BvS and the Snyder brand name for that.  I also mentioned Deadpool 2 and Infinity War to further demonstrate the point that comic book movie fatigue is a myth.  Now Snyder superhero movie fatigue... that has some serious evidence to it that a few select fans conveniently ignore or spin.  Why not... some people seriously think the world is flat.


I also think they made a big mistake uniting the Trinity in BvS Wonder Woman should had been saved for her solo film and the Trinity being together for the first time on the big screen could had been a nice selling point even with some having Snyder Fatigue.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I also think they made a big mistake uniting the Trinity in BvS Wonder Woman should had been saved for her solo film and the Trinity being together for the first time on the big screen could had been a nice selling point even with some having Snyder Fatigue.


The devil's advocate to that point is that Wonder Woman's appearance in BvS created excitement for Wonder Woman.  Many were vocally not sold on Gal as Wonder Woman.  I'm not sure if her solo would have done as well without her appearance in BvS.  For all my criticism of Snyder... I will give him credit for casting Gal.  The jury will be out on Mamoa and Miller.  If those castings work out then we have to give credit where credit is due.  So much of the DCEU was based on his foundation.  From MOS, BvS, JL to all the hero and vilain castings.  So much power was given to Snyder that the success/failure of the cinematic universe so far has to be largely attributed to him.  He doubled down on Eisenberg as Lex (which I think is a huge mistake) so now every writer and director has to work with the foundation that he started.  Even Jenkins said that Gal would not have been her first choice.  I'm really worried about the Flashpoint directors directing Ezra Miller... that could end up geing way over the top.  I have more faith that Aquaman will be a good movie than Flashpoint just based on the director.

The biggest mistake so far was keeping Snyder for JL rather than pushing it back.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Names are meaningless now a days. The audience doesn't care about A-list vs B-list...etc. Unlike with comics, quality matters and a good film will attract a large audience (and talent).


They aren't meaningless, an established brand along with quality will make more than something than with just quality. Even Black Panther is banking on the MCU brand.
On the other hand Zack Snyder brand is toxic, give him Star Wars and even those films will struggle. Its why Darkseid for instance was cut from the League, Snyder's taint was to be minimized as much as possible.

----------


## The True Detective

> Okay let's put it this way.  if anyone would have said that Black Panther would smash JL opening weekend we would have called them crazy.  Actually what superhero movie in 2017 didn't outperform JL in 2017?  You can thank BvS and the Snyder brand name for that.  I also mentioned Deadpool 2 and Infinity War to further demonstrate the point that comic book movie fatigue is a myth.  Now Snyder superhero movie fatigue... that has some serious evidence to it that a few select fans conveniently ignore or spin.  Why not... some people seriously think the world is flat.


Spider-Man: Homecoming had Spider-Man and Iron Man in it and Black Panther's going to open bigger. 

Thor: Ragnarok had Thor and the Hulk in it, Black Panther's going to open bigger. 

Rogue One: A Star Wars Story was a Star Wars movie with Darth Vader in it, Black Panther's going to open bigger than it. 

Wonder Woman is much more famous than Black Panther and his movie's going to open much bigger than hers.

All those characters are much more famous and popular than Black Panther and unlike JL had the advantage of great reviews and still will have smaller openings than BP. Like El Gato name value doesn't mean that much, reviews do. Trust me if BP had the same reviews as JL it wouldn't even come close to the $93m OW JL had.

----------


## golgi

Seems people are more interested in newer characters on the big screen. See Suicide Squad and Deadpool. That's not a knock on Wonder Woman, though. Wonder Woman had a historic run at the box office and made more than Civil War (Which had Black Panther, Spidey, Iron Man, etc...) domestically.

----------


## Barbatos666

Wonder Woman did not make more than Civil War. It did make slightly less than Ragnarok and Homecoming but it enjoyed a great run nonetheless.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Spider-Man: Homecoming had Spider-Man and Iron Man in it and Black Panther's going to open bigger. 
> 
> Thor: Ragnarok had Thor and the Hulk in it, Black Panther's going to open bigger. 
> 
> Rogue One: A Star Wars Story was a Star Wars movie with Darth Vader in it, Black Panther's going to open bigger than it. 
> 
> Wonder Woman is much more famous than Black Panther and his movie's going to open much bigger than hers.
> 
> All those characters are much more famous and popular than Black Panther and unlike JL had the advantage of great reviews and still will have smaller openings than BP. Like El Gato name value doesn't mean that much, reviews do. Trust me if BP had the same reviews as JL it wouldn't even come close to the $93m OW JL had.


Spidey and Thor had to overcome the stink of their previous films.
Rogue One barely had Vader.
Black Panther has the backing of the MCU brand.

----------


## golgi

> Wonder Woman did not make more than Civil War. It did make slightly less than Ragnarok and Homecoming but it enjoyed a great run nonetheless.


I said it made more DOMESTICALLY. Wonder Woman pulled in 412 M and Civil War did 408 M. Wonder Woman had a near 4x multiplier, which is the best multiplier of any modern super hero film.

----------


## Carabas

> okay but I was talking about myself not "people" strictly myself so...


Well, that was not exactly clear. Your post didn't specify. Sorry.

----------


## Carabas

> Spidey and Thor had to overcome the stink of their previous films.
> Rogue One barely had Vader.
> Black Panther has the backing of the MCU brand.


Spidey and Thor didn't have the backing of the MCU brand?

----------


## The True Detective

> Spidey and Thor had to overcome the stink of their previous films.
> Rogue One barely had Vader.
> Black Panther has the backing of the MCU brand.


JL had to try and overcome the stink of the entire cinematic universe it was in, being the sequel to arguably the most hated blockbuster ever is a pretty big hill to climb.

And Justice League barely had Superman in it, so really the only A-List characters they had were Batman and Wonder Woman. And even if Vader wasn't in it a lot his scenes were easily among the most popular in the movie. Star Wars is Star Wars though, it's bigger than any one character.

Um, Homecoming and Ragnarok had the MCU branding too so not sure what you mean with your last point.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Spidey and Thor didn't have the backing of the MCU brand?


They did but they had a negative as well.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They did but they had a negative as well.


They also had the bonuses of Iron Man and Hulk playing a major part in their respective marketing. In the case of Spider-Man, there is a slight fatigue set in thanks to 6 films in 15 years and the third series in less than 10 years. And many people didn't find Homecoming to be as good as the first two Sam Raimi films.

But I think Thor: Ragnarok is pretty much the best case scenario and made close to the financial ceiling for Thor, barring a Civil War like film where lots of Avengers play a prominent role in his film.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Um, Homecoming and Ragnarok had the MCU branding too so not sure what you mean with your last point.


As Barbatos stated earlier, Spidey had to overcome the stink of TASM series and Thor had been the weak link in the MCU prior to Ragnarok.

----------


## Barbatos666

> They also had the bonuses of Iron Man and Hulk playing a major part in their respective marketing. In the case of Spider-Man, there is a slight fatigue set in thanks to 6 films in 15 years and the third series in less than 10 years. And many people didn't find Homecoming to be as good as the first two Sam Raimi films.
> 
> But I think Thor: Ragnarok is pretty much the best case scenario and made close to the financial ceiling for Thor, barring a Civil War like film where lots of Avengers play a prominent role in his film.


Yes in the end the positives overwhelmed the negatives.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> All those characters are much more famous and popular than Black Panther and unlike JL had the advantage of great reviews and still will have smaller openings than BP. Like El Gato name value doesn't mean that much, reviews do. Trust me if BP had the same reviews as JL it wouldn't even come close to the $93m OW JL had.


I never argued against that.

----------


## Styles

> Wait one freaking minute. Shazam is set in Philly and not Fawcett City? Wtf.


Billy is from Philly in the New 52 version

----------


## Gaastra

WB makes fun of themselves again.

[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## Moonwix

> WB makes fun of themselves again.
> 
> [IMG][/IMG]


LMAO. It's funny though.

----------


## Johnny

> WB makes fun of themselves again.


I mean what else can they do at this point.

Still, DC's strength outside of comics has always been animation. And however people feel about TTG, it sure has its audience.

----------


## The_Lurk

Is the official digital stream version of JL already out somewhere? Rumor is that mustachegate is extremely obvious in-your-face bad on the small screen. If you did not knew it was not that bad on the big screen (at least for me). It had a very tiny bit of uncanny valley feeling but having that worse on the stream/disk?  :Frown: 

Have the steelbook specials of all the DCEU movies... that JL preorder I am about to cancel.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Is the official digital stream version of JL already out somewhere? Rumor is that mustachegate is extremely obvious in-your-face bad on the small screen. If you did not knew it was not that bad on the big screen (at least for me). It had a very tiny bit of uncanny valley feeling but having that worse on the stream/disk? 
> 
> Have the steelbook specials of all the DCEU movies... that JL preorder I am about to cancel.


Yes, it is now available digitally through various retailers. 

The opening cellphone scene is still bad, but no worse than in the theater. The rest of the film is, in my opinion, a tad overblown on how bad it looks. Granted, it doesn't look great, but no worse than theater showings (to be honest, I thought it was only in-your-face-bad at an IMAX show; regular screens it was ok). It only looks horrendous in still shots, but in motion it looks better. If you didn't know it was there, you'd probably think "he looks a little different, maybe he gained a little weight." It's inexcusable that this was ever a thing in the first place, but having said that, certainly not as bad as reported.

I'd say keep the preorder. The only way WB will ever see fit to release any sort of alternate cut is if this one sells like gangbusters. If WB thinks money can be made from it, they'll do something. If nobody buys this, they'll assume people really don't care and no matter of asking will yield what many of us want. YMMV, of course.

----------


## The_Lurk

> Yes, it is now available digitally through various retailers. 
> 
> The opening cellphone scene is still bad, but no worse than in the theater. The rest of the film is, in my opinion, a tad overblown on how bad it looks. Granted, it doesn't look great, but no worse than theater showings (to be honest, I thought it was only in-your-face-bad at an IMAX show; regular screens it was ok). It only looks horrendous in still shots, but in motion it looks better. If you didn't know it was there, you'd probably think "he looks a little different, maybe he gained a little weight." It's inexcusable that this was ever a thing in the first place, but having said that, certainly not as bad as reported.


Great, thanks!  :Smile: 

And yeah, its inexcusable to no ends especially now that its shown how easy it could have been fixed. Endless shame on WB; shame!

----------


## ironman2978

> Wait one freaking minute. Shazam is set in Philly and not Fawcett City? Wtf.


Honestly I think I like this change, seeing Billy Batson in Phily. I hope they do mention Fawcett in some form. I remember one Shazam book, "Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil!" and Golden Age stories had him in New York City, particularly Monster Society depicted a post 9/11 and it worked, but with this it kind changes, especially when multiple films do depict superheroes living in a New York setting.

Hopefully this movie would do the same as well, really showing how Philly impacts Billy and vice-versa.

----------


## Robotman

I much prefer DC heroes to reside in fictional cities. Id rather Green Arrow live in Star City over Seattle, Black Lightning in Freeland instead of Cleveland, and Supergirl in National City instead of Los Angeles. So its a bummer that Billy will be from Philadelphia and not Fawcett City.

----------


## ironman2978

Honestly I am half and half about that matter. 

Certain DC heroes do work for fictional cities (Gotham City, Metropolis, Central/Keystone City, Coast City).While other DC Heroes work extremely better in that type of real world setting(Wonder Woman in London or Washington DC, Cyborg in Detroit, Billy in Philly, Green Arrow in Seattle, Black Lightning in Cleveland or New Orleans or Los Angeles, Hawkman and Hawkgirl in New Orleans or New York or Egypt or even going on Indiana Jones like Adventures across the world, Teen Titans in New York or San Francisco, etc)  To me having DC Heroes in Real world cities works because it expands the DC Universe as a whole, it allows the cities to have an influence and spins  on the hero and vice versa, kind of adding to the "World just outside your window" (like when Batman was originally in Manhattan or Superman having a few issues in Cleveland or Manhattan).

 Besides with certain superheroes, despite being created with fictional cities before moving to real cities, or vice versa, I don't feel like the fictional cities necessarily add or detract anything of important to the characters themselves especially if they are constantly changing environments (Captain Marvel being in New York in early stories and Monster Society as well as Philadelphia in New 52, GA travelling across the world in Hard Travelling Hero and living Seattle for a good portion of the 90's and New 52/Rebirth, Wonder Woman especially) , as opposed to say Gotham does to Batman or Metropolis does Superman, or even the Twin Cities does with the Flash. Their fictional cities doesn't have a personality that makes me feel like that it's necessary to tell the character's story or what defines the hero.

Certain DC superheroes work better in real world cities than other in my eyes.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Never in a million years did I expect a BP film to out-gross the first ever Justice League film...

I don't know whether to be proud  for Marvel for  having a diverse superhero do  so well at the Box office or mad at DC for screwing up their universe up so much to the point where their A-list characters perform like B-list characters.

----------


## Robotman

> Never in a million years did I expect a BP film to out-gross the first ever Justice League film...
> 
> I don't know whether to be proud  for Marvel for  having a diverse superhero do  so well at the Box office or mad at DC for screwing up their universe up so much to the point where their A-list characters perform like B-list characters.


It can be both.

----------


## Johnny

It certainly is both. I'm not the biggest Disney fan, but at times I do wish DC was owned by them instead of WB.

----------


## Elmo

> It certainly is both. I'm not the biggest Disney fan, but at times I do wish DC was owned by them instead of WB.


So we can get a barrage of the same basic formulaic bullshit 4 times a year? No thanks. Filmmaking is an art form and Disney shits all over that art form. WB may not be consistent with their vision for the DCEU but at least the directors' films are distinctly THEIR movies. 

Good filmmaking and respect for the art > making nerds happy.

----------


## Frontier

> I much prefer DC heroes to reside in fictional cities. I’d rather Green Arrow live in Star City over Seattle, Black Lightning in Freeland instead of Cleveland, and Supergirl in National City instead of Los Angeles. So it’s a bummer that Billy will be from Philadelphia and not Fawcett City.


100% agreed  :Smile: .

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> So we can get a barrage of the same basic formulaic bullshit 4 times a year? No thanks. Filmmaking is an art form and Disney shits all over that art form. WB may not be consistent with their vision for the DCEU but at least the directors' films are distinctly THEIR movies. 
> 
> Good filmmaking and respect for the art > making nerds happy.


Dunno if you can call Justice League (at least in its current form) a Zack Snyder movie at this point, all things considered.

(Suicide Squad's another shaky area but having recently subjected myself to Bright, I wonder if there really was much of a disparity between Ayer's version and the released Squad)

----------


## mace11

> So we can get a barrage of the same basic formulaic bullshit 4 times a year? No thanks. Filmmaking is an art form and Disney shits all over that art form. WB may not be consistent with their vision for the DCEU but at least the directors' films are distinctly THEIR movies. 
> 
> Good filmmaking and respect for the art > making nerds happy.


Your views are incorrect.
Anyway marvel mcu has been putting out 2 movies year for awhile.
3 Movies a year started last year.
The other marvel movies like deadpool,logan etc.. are not mcu marvel films but they are still marvel movies.

More Than Just The Same: MCU Head Kevin Feige Says All Marvel Movies Are 'Relatively Different'



> As popular as it is, one of the biggest and most enduring criticisms of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) is how similar many of its entries are to each other. Minus a few exceptions, cynical viewers think that Marvel movies are interchangeable, with the only differences being the hero's name and which Infinity Stone the villain was holding. In response, Marvel Entertainment head honcho Kevin Feige defended the MCU, saying that the movies are in fact, different from one another. 
> Feige Talks About Marvelous Differences
> While talking to Uproxx about the upcoming #Marvel movies that include Thor: Ragnarok and Black Panther, Feige acknowledged that the Marvel movies do tend to feel similar to one another. For the producer, there's a perfectly logical reason for this, and it's unavoidable given the tightly-knit group of writers responsible for bringing popular Marvel comics to the big screen. 
> 
> "I mean, I think it's just the way we make the movies. I think all the movies are relatively different. I think there's a narrative that people like to write about because they're all produced by the same team and they all inhabit the same fictional cinematic universe. That we look for common similarities."
> 
> While not downplaying the criticisms and similarities, Feige doubled-down on his belief that the Marvel movies are distinct movies that just so happen to be a part of a greater cinematic universe. To prove his point, the producer cited the most recent Marvel movies that have noticeably been aiming to do something outside of the usual Marvel formula.
>     "And I'm not saying there aren't common similarities throughout it, but I think 'Thor: Ragnarok' and 'Spider-Man: Homecoming' are two totally different types of movies. They're both fun. People both enjoy them. Is that a similarity? If so, I'll take it. If that's a criticism, I'll take that, too. But really, yeah, 'Homecoming,' 'Ragnarok,' '[Black] Panther,' into 'Infinity War,' 'Ant-Man and the Wasp' after that. And a '90s-set 'Captain Marvel' after that; these are six very different movies.If what they have in common is they're all really enjoyable and fun to watch, then I'll take it."
> When asked if Thor: Ragnarok, which is being marketed as an inter-galactic road-trip, was the craziest that Marvel could get, Feige reassured Uproxx's Mike Ryan that #Ragnarok - and by extension, future Marvel films - will be a Marvel movie that fans would not be expecting. 
>     "The truth of the matter is I think they're all unusual and I think they all seem to be funnier than people expect. People said the same thing to me about 'Guardians [of the Galaxy],' people said the same thing to me three months ago about 'Spider-Man: Homecoming.' But, certainly, this is the one that we followed our instincts into comedy unabashedly."


https://moviepilot.com/p/kevin-feige...ticism/4414149


 Why Marvel’s Success Story is More Than Just a ‘Formula’



> Arguably, the closest Marvel comes to a film-to-film formula is a general approach to plotting that upends the typical view of “stakes” in action filmmaking. It’s not an accident that Marvel films are all named after their respective lead figures – these are character-focused stories first and foremost, and everything else comes second. Making the main character(s) likable (or, rather, compelling enough to follow from film to film to semi-annual crossover event) is the focus, and the arc of the story is usually also the arc of character growth. Which mean, yes, the world can be on the verge of ending (as it typically is in these movies) and it’s all just more opportunity for stunts and one-liners, because the drama is meant to be in whether or not the good guys overcome their personal demons and (where applicable) maintain their friendships. But, again, a recurring theme doesn’t necessarily constitute a formula.
> 
> The funny thing about the seemingly futile search for a “Marvel formula” is that, truth be told, there actually is one – it’s just not the “sexy” smoking gun that dedicated nit-pickers (or rival studios) want it to be, and neither is it the “just stick to the comics, duh!” self-flattery the fans often describe it as. 
> 
> When a filmmaking operation succeeds as much as Marvel has, both fans and detractors want to assign some kind of magical flourish to the story of how they did it. “Write good scripts, hire good filmmakers, have a clear vision and stick to it” sounds too mundane and general – never mind what it implies if you’re in the same business and somehow not able to marshal the same success. “Start with the comics, but pay just as much attention to what the broader audience responds to” doesn’t sound as triumphant for message-board self-congratulation. 
> It’s easier to assume that someone at Marvel (or Pixar, or whoever) has some kind of special sorcery to imbue their productions with, or some top-secret blueprint to follow.
> 
> That’s the real irony at play here: The question that keeps being asked is “How does Marvel keep making this work?,” when the question that needs to be asked is closer to “Why is everyone else somehow unable to?”


To read more go here
http://screenrant.com/marvel-movie-formula-brand/
Note-most of the mcu movies if i could recall do not have world  ending events by the ways.

Here is view from another poster.
by WebLurker



> Marvel movies are directed by different people who bring different sensibilities into the mix. Also the MCU has proven to be diverse in tone depending on the subject matter (compare the Captain America movies to Guardians of the Galaxy or Doctor Strange). The X-Men will have a tone of its own because of the stuff that makes it unique from the other franchises and the specific creative team given the reigns. (There might be more humor than the other movies, but even Logan had comic relief. Besides some of the funniest stuff I've seen in comics outside of Spider-Man came from X-Men stuff.)
> Let me give you an even easier example; the MCU has given us sci-fi, fantasy, war movies, spy thrillers, and heists within the same overall series. They also have done character development over the course of this series very well, bar none. (Also, the Captain America movies do not fit your description and Spider-Man is a property that supposed to be light-hearted by nature -- albeit with a serious edge.)
> There's a difference between having humor and taking the movie seriously. The MCU does use humor, but the stories are generally taken seriously. Also, comedy does not equal a lack of substance. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 was funny and had substance in the characters, like Logan had substance in its characters, but through a serious story.
> The MCU movies made so far are not X-Men movies and should be taking inspiration from their source material and what makes the characters work. (For example, should Spider-Man have the same tone as Wolverine?)


and
The marvel formula is why critics hate dc?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUFPNdbRHQ

----------


## Johnny

> So we can get a barrage of the same basic formulaic bullshit 4 times a year? No thanks. Filmmaking is an art form and Disney shits all over that art form. WB may not be consistent with their vision for the DCEU but at least the directors' films are distinctly THEIR movies. 
> 
> *Good filmmaking and respect for the art* > making nerds happy.


Ironic that, WW being the one exception, WB has shown the DC universe neither of the two since they started this little experiment to go after Marvel. If anything, they've shown quite the opposite so far.

I mean, they certainly don't need to try to make nerds like me happy, but rather try to make the movie-going masses around the world happy. They seem to really be struggling with that.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> So we can get a barrage of the same basic formulaic bullshit 4 times a year? No thanks. Filmmaking is an art form and Disney shits all over that art form. WB may not be consistent with their vision for the DCEU but at least the directors' films are distinctly THEIR movies. 
> 
> Good filmmaking and respect for the art > making nerds happy.


You aren't allowed to say that anymore after Black Panther and Justice League
DC is where directors go to get bullied 
Marvel is where they go to make their own movies

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Ironic that, WW being the one exception, WB has shown the DC universe neither of the two since they started this little experiment to go after Marvel. If anything, they've shown quite the opposite so far.
> 
> I mean, they certainly don't need to try to make nerds like me happy, but rather try to make the movie-going masses around the world happy. They seem to really be struggling with that. Say hi to Kermit for me.


Have to agree at this point. Wonder Woman is the only time in five movies in which WB showed ANY respect to filmaking OR the fans. 

If they were so certain they'd made a mistake by hiring Snyder to launch the DCEU, then they should've just cut him loose after MOS. There would've been minimal harm done: MOS wasn't universally loved, but it made money and what damage was done could've been repaired. The DCEU would've gotten off to a slightly shaky start, but it could've continued to move forward. 

Instead, they kept Snyder, building up false confidence for those of us who liked his work and allowing the fanbase's resentment wars to grow and fester. Then, they couldn't even just step back and let him make his movies.

WB has shown very little respect to us, to Snyder, to Ayer, and to the whole concept of filmmaking. Now all we can do is hope that this new era starting up this winter is the beginning of a fresh start. If it isn't, then that's going to be bad.

----------


## Johnny

> WB has shown very little respect to us, to Snyder, to Ayer, and to the whole concept of filmmaking. Now all we can do is hope that this new era starting up this winter is the beginning of a fresh start. If it isn't, then that's going to be bad.


Really bad.  :Wink:

----------


## Elmo

> *You aren't allowed to say that anymore after Black Panther and Justice League*
> DC is where directors go to get bullied 
> Marvel is where they go to make their own movies


Try and stop me

All Marvel movies are the same

Justice League was a tragic case of damage control and turned out awful

would still prefer it over the Disney corporate formula

----------


## Elmo

> Your views are incorrect.
> Anyway marvel mcu has been putting out 2 movies year for awhile.
> 3 Movies a year started last year.
> The other marvel movies like deadpool,logan etc.. are not mcu marvel films but they are still marvel movies.
> 
> More Than Just The Same: MCU Head Kevin Feige Says All Marvel Movies Are 'Relatively Different'
> 
> https://moviepilot.com/p/kevin-feige...ticism/4414149
> 
> ...


Oh please. Nothing in this post had anything to do with what I was saying.

Even if all the MCU films weren't all alike, the culty fanbase that surrounds them is enough to turn me off for good

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Ironic that, WW being the one exception, WB has shown the DC universe neither of the two since they started this little experiment to go after Marvel. If anything, they've shown quite the opposite so far.
> 
> I mean, they certainly don't need to try to make nerds like me happy, but rather try to make the movie-going masses around the world happy. *They seem to really be struggling with that.*


I think they struggle because they think they can toss whatever they want out with Batman & Superman on the cover and expect folks to bow down and worship them.

And the public is not having any of that.

Like you said Marvel is more worried about making a film for EVERYONE versus pandering to a set group like the comic side won't stop doing.

I have met too many folks who know NOTHING about comics say how much they loved Black Panther and others the same for WW and more who liked Falcon, Winter Solider, Black Widow, GOTG.

When you don't worry about fanboys and keep all the bad cooks out of the kitchen-you get well received films.

Disney doesn't care about grumpy fanboys who would rather set fire to books that they don't have to read or make up stories about attacks at film-they care about that hearing those folks who never supported comics and still came to the show.

----------


## mace11

> Oh please. Nothing in this post had anything to do with what I was saying.
> 
> Even if all the MCU films weren't all alike, the culty fanbase that surrounds them is enough to turn me off for good





> Even if all the MCU films weren't all alike, the culty fanbase that surrounds them is enough to turn me off for good


So there are those who would say the same for dceu films.
Like i said all mcu movies they different from each other.

If you like the movies like the movies because you like the movies.
Don't worry about a certain fanbase.
This goes for all movies,books,etc..
You may need to get off forums or take a break.
I just had say that.
Don't let others ruin things for you.





> So we can get a barrage of the same basic *formulaic* bullshit 4 times a year?





> All Marvel movies are the *same*





> would still prefer it over the Disney corporate *formula*







> Oh please. Nothing in this post had anything to do with what I was saying.


You use the word the same and formulaic.
Did you write those words?
Did forget what you wrote?
Don't play games.
The info i posted was talking about what you were saying and what you said or your views about the mcu is incorrect.
Simple as that.



> The marvel form is why critics hate dc?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUFPNdbRHQula

----------


## TheSeaDragon

Elmo, you re not alone. Count me also as someone who is tired of the culty MCU  fan base




I  consider the MCU totaly overhyped. Most of the entries are average and without re watch value

----------


## Elmo

> So there those who would say the same for dceu films.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You use the world the same and formulaic.Did not write those words?
> Did not forget what you wrote.
> Don't play games.
> ...


It is correct...I don't need to read a bunch of articles or statements from a movie producer to know it, I can just watch the movies, which I do. They are all roughly the same. Disney is a disgusting evil empire with an agenda to buy out most major media providers which will destroy filmmaking as an art form and the entertainment industry altogether. They are sickening and the movies are the same, whether you enjoy them or not.

The Marvel movies all follow the SAME formula and it doesn't matter if certain aspects are different. You can watch a Marvel film without knowing what it is originally and immediately _know_ it's a Marvel film.

They are expertly crafted to fit the same blockbuster mold. Appealing to the crowd that started watching in the beginning while also putting enough dumbed down story elements masked as "deep" to appeal to foreign markets.

Nothing, absolutely nothing about the Marvel films represents good filmmaking. Shitting out movie after movie with crap CGI and the same basic story elements is solely for the intent of selling toys and making millions, when filmmaking is supposed to be about telling great stories and leaping forward with every new project.

The DCEU has been a massive failure but the intentions were always noble. Since the beginning they worked with top filmmakers, writers, and actors to try and create something special. Just the simple premise of the franchise's development is beautiful in itself. Also since the beginning it has been attacked by numerous critics and blog sites; constant rumors and hit pieces when the whole point of DC and Marvel comics was that if one does well, it's good for the entire industry. Blogs and internet trolls want to divide them and it's fucked up.

People assume because directors left certain DC projects that WB are bullies forcing directors to conform to a vision when that is LITERALLY what Marvel does. "Creative differences" implies that two or more people on the same project did not agree on where to go. It very rarely has anything to do with the studio and in most cases WB have been mediators. The ONLY reason people assume WB is this evil overseeing company forcing directors to do shit is because a blog mentioned it and people rode that wave.

In any case my statement was not meant to imply that the DC movies are better or worse. In actuality the only DCEU film I really enjoy is Man of Steel. I just respect the vision of the DCEU and I want it to succeed. WB has the best track record in the history of film. They aren't an evil company like Disney and they respect filmmaking. 

I would gladly take shit DC movie after shit DC movie if it meant the property wasn't in the hands of a company like Disney. It's a fucking cult. The whole MCU bandwagon just looks and feels like a cult and that's no disrespect to anyone who enjoys those movies that's just what it looks like. Disney has always been extremely problematic and in recent years it's obvious they don't give a shit about making good movies because they know the public will eat it up




> Elmo, you re not alone. Count me also as someone who is tired of the culty MCU  fan base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I  consider the MCU totaly overhyped. Most of the entries are average and without re watch value


Hey thanks man; I know my opinion isn't a popular one but I'm glad someone else sees it how I do

----------


## mace11

This is from john campea.
Black Panther Success Highlights DCEU's Need To Start Over



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l12F5tp5ozw

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Wonder Woman 2 & Aquaman are the hope now. They could BOTH lay the groundwork for an expanded DCU with Donna Troy, Garth, Tula, and even JSA. Aquaman alone can do wonders with Atlantis, Teen Titans could be in motion and other groups but I doubt that since they don’t have a Clear vision just like the comics continuity

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> It is correct...I don't need to read a bunch of articles or statements from a movie producer to know it, I can just watch the movies, which I do. They are all roughly the same. Disney is a disgusting evil empire with an agenda to buy out most major media providers which will destroy filmmaking as an art form and the entertainment industry altogether. They are sickening and the movies are the same, whether you enjoy them or not.
> 
> The Marvel movies all follow the SAME formula and it doesn't matter if certain aspects are different. You can watch a Marvel film without knowing what it is originally and immediately _know_ it's a Marvel film.
> 
> They are expertly crafted to fit the same blockbuster mold. Appealing to the crowd that started watching in the beginning while also putting enough dumbed down story elements masked as "deep" to appeal to foreign markets.
> 
> Nothing, absolutely nothing about the Marvel films represents good filmmaking. Shitting out movie after movie with crap CGI and the same basic story elements is solely for the intent of selling toys and making millions, when filmmaking is supposed to be about telling great stories and leaping forward with every new project.
> 
> The DCEU has been a massive failure but the intentions were always noble. Since the beginning they worked with top filmmakers, writers, and actors to try and create something special. Just the simple premise of the franchise's development is beautiful in itself. Also since the beginning it has been attacked by numerous critics and blog sites; constant rumors and hit pieces when the whole point of DC and Marvel comics was that if one does well, it's good for the entire industry. Blogs and internet trolls want to divide them and it's fucked up.
> ...




stay strong, man. Not likin the MCU  is fine, they are just movies, subject to opinions, like anything. But as you said, is like a culty fandom now  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## mace11

> yeah, this discussion is over.


Not yet.
 I realize on  forums  like these a long time ago you not really changing folks minds,but once in awhile you have put out the facts and your views are wrong.


By the way i like all the dceu films i have seen,so i am not dceu hater but it's clear marvel mcu overall is doing a much better job.
The films on average from the mcu are stronger,character development is stronger,and the cgi on average better.
The only dceu film i have not seen yet is SS,well i have not see all of it yet.
Still plan to later.


Here some  others views/talk about the mcu/Disney vs dc/wb vs marvel fox
The real reasons the DC Extended Universe is struggling



> by Scott Harris
> While Marvel Comics and Disney are riding high on the hog with one
> massive box office hit after another, DC Comics and Warner Bros. are
> struggling to simply get their own extended cinematic universe off the
> ground. Given that DC's characters—including Superman, Batman, and
> Wonder Woman—are arguably the most recognizable superheroes in the
> world, you'd think this wouldn't be so hard. So why can't they seem to
> figure it out? Here's a look at some of the real reasons for the
> DCEU's struggles.
> ...

----------


## Elmo

> By the way i like all the dceu films i have seen,so i am not dceu hater but it's clear marvel mcu overall is doing a much better job.
> The films on average from the mcu are stronger,character development is stronger,and the cgi on average better.
> The only dceu film i have not seen yet is SS,well i have not see all of it yet.
> Still plan to later.
> 
> 
> Here some  others views/talk about the mcu/Disney vs dc/wb vs marvel fox
> The real reasons the DC Extended Universe is struggling


Nothing about your statement or this post disputes anything I said in mine.

Disney is still an evil empire with a nefarious agenda, still crafts films to fit a specific mold.

I never said they weren't successful or doing a better job. In terms of character development and CGI, that's your opinion and wasn't part of the original discussion in the first place.

You like the MCU, I hate it, there's literally nothing we can do about this but accept it and move on

----------


## TheSeaDragon

i wonder about the MCU  take on the mutants. The X  men are not something to play safe with andt htey have a very special fan base . Part of me would enjoy it turning divisive with fans. Of course, it will have stellar RT  critic scores, i dont even know how the marvel X  men movies will be but i already know they will have stellar RT  scores , but just like the last Jedi, maybe the fans will have other opinion

----------


## mace11

WB truly is its own worst enemy



> by dteam6
> 
> With all the Affleck/The Batman news, there seem to be strong
> indications that Affleck is PO'd because the studio is likely meddling
> with the production. At this point, that's not even a surprise,
> considering all the meddling they've done before. It's amazing--many
> viewed "The Batman" as the would-be savior of the DCCU and a chance
> for Affleck to work mostly untethered from WB but nope--it sounds like
> they are meddling quite heavily. Is WB becoming as bad as Sony at this
> ...

----------


## mace11

> Nothing about your statement or this post disputes anything I said in mine.
> 
> Disney is still an evil empire with a nefarious agenda, still crafts films to fit a specific mold.
> 
> I never said they weren't successful or doing a better job. In terms of character development and CGI, that's your opinion and wasn't part of the original discussion in the first place.
> 
> You like the MCU, I hate it, there's literally nothing we can do about this but accept it and move on


You mention cgi in one of your posts.
Like  i said posted the facts,you did not.
By the way you said you did not like the mcu.
Let's just talk about marvel.
Do you like any marvel superheroes or villains elmo?

----------


## Elmo

> You mention cgi in one of posts.
> Like said i posted the facts,you did not.
> By the way you said he did not like the mcu.
> Let's just talk about marvel.
> Do you like any marvel superheroes or villains elmo?


I love Marvel comics and grew up with Marvel characters. Stop changing the subject.

The discussion was regarding DC properties in the hands of Disney which I am against because I hate Disney and MCU. That is the discussion and you are changing it to give me your own opinion about unrelated stuff which I didn't ask for. 

Just because I mentioned CGI doesn't mean that was what the discussion was about. If you're not even going to remain consistent with your own argument don't even bother talking to me.

Go "just talk about marvel" on the Marvel board. This is the DCEU thread in the DC Comics forum.

----------


## mace11

> i wonder about the MCU  take on the mutants. The X  men are not something to play safe with andt htey have a very special fan base . Part of me would enjoy it turning divisive with fans. Of course, it will have stellar RT  critic scores, i dont even know how the marvel X  men movies will be but i already know they will have stellar RT  scores , but just like the last Jedi, maybe the fans will have other opinion


Some folks love talking about the marvel formula for mcu movies.
Here some talk about the x-men fox marvel movie formula.

Can New Mutants Bring the X-Men to Horror Movies? | CBR



> The X-Men universe has seen its share of genre shifting in recent years, to be fairLogan, The Gifted and Deadpool have all proven to be successful experiments in putting a fresh coat of paint on the traditional superhero film. But those three examples still stick to the X-Men film formula of costumed weirdos fighting the government with flashy superpowers. Deadpool uses the formula as a form of mockery, The Gifted scales it down, and Logan just isolates it to whats really the least flashy (but no less impressive) power in the X-film roster. Just as how audiences know what to expect from Marvel Studios or DC Entertainment movies, they have a fairly solid idea of what to expect from X-films, and New Mutants certainly isnt that.


Note- 
The gifted is not movie.

X-Men: Dark Phoenix Has Officially Wrapped Production



> This movie, which is promising to do the Dark Phoenix story and get it right this time, is the X-Men movie that people are talking about the least. The reviews for X-Men: Apocalypse were not exactly positive. And while movies like Deadpool 2 and the The New Mutants are promising a very different X-Men movie experience, all evidence thus far points to this one following a formula that appears to not be working anymore. There were rumors that the X-Men were finally going to embrace outer space and get weird on us, but those were shut down. Its yet another grounded X-Men movie.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

> You mention cgi in one of your posts.
> Like  i said posted the facts,you did not.
> By the way you said you did not like the mcu.
> Let's just talk about marvel.
> Do you like any marvel superheroes or villains elmo?



and you even like DC?

----------


## EyesWideKubrick

> This is from john campea.
> Black Panther Success Highlights DCEU's Need To Start Over
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l12F5tp5ozw


John Campea is a sexist idiot. He has no valid points regarding film whatsoever.

As for the arguments, I'm on Elmo's side. The MCU's formulaic approach destroys movies as an art. Their films are not going to be remembered as an art whatsoever.

----------


## mace11

> I love Marvel comics and grew up with Marvel characters. Stop changing the subject.
> 
> The discussion was regarding DC properties in the hands of Disney which I am against because I hate Disney and MCU. That is the discussion and you are changing it to give me your own opinion about unrelated stuff which I didn't ask for. 
> 
> Just because I mentioned CGI doesn't mean that was what the discussion was about. If you're not even going to remain consistent with your own argument don't even bother talking to me.
> 
> Go "just talk about marvel" on the Marvel board. This is the DCEU thread in the DC Comics forum.


You are the one changing the subject elmo.
You mention all mcu movies  are  the same,then you said you did not,then you mean cgi then you said you did not.
You could like  or hate want ever you want but it's clear you are hating on the mcu and disney  for the wrong reasons like a certain fanbase for example.
I watch and like dceu movies and you mention marvel so i should be able to reply back to you about marvel on the dceu forum.
That's fair right?
Right.

----------


## mace11

Will Marvel & Disney Ruin the X-Men as Fans Suggest?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17XgLJpc-hY

----------


## EyesWideKubrick

> You are the one changing the subject elmo.
> You mention all mcu movies  are  the same,then you said you did not,then you mean cgi then you said you did not.
> You could like  or hate want ever you want but it's clear you are hating on the mcu and disney  for the wrong reasons like a certain fanbase for example.
> I watch and like dceu movies and you mention marvel so i should be able to reply back to you about marvel on the dceu forum.
> That's fair right?
> Right.


So it's wrong to not like the MCU approach for film? 

From Iron Man to Black Panther, every single MCU film has no distinct qualities in their narrative and formulaic approach aside from Black Panther. Furthermore, each MCU film are so alike that you cannot distinguish their directors, and you notice they are all mostly producer and corporate driven. To go even further, the writing in most MCU films are weak, and have trivial and undeveloped themes stemmed from weak conflicts between weak villains and generic comedic heroes. The MCU is killing comic book films as an art and are making them entertainment events of the year, fads that will not be remembered in the long run anytime soon.

Watchmen, Man Of Steel, Batman v. Superman, are all quality films made from passion and love of the characters. There are fundamental themes and character development at hand that stem from actual love for filmmaking that is indistinguishable from any other director. You can tell they are Zack Snyder films. They are masterpieces of the CBM genre because they are brilliantly executed in writing, acting, direction, and so much more. 

As Elmo said, I would take more of those than most MCU films, aside from Black Panther.

----------


## Elmo

> You are the one changing the subject elmo.
> You mention all mcu movies  are  the same,then you said you did not,then you mean cgi then you said you did not.
> You could like  or hate want ever you want but it's clear you are hating on the mcu and disney  for the wrong reasons like a certain fanbase for example.
> I watch and like dceu movies and you mention marvel so i should be able to reply back to you about marvel on the dceu forum.
> That's fair right?
> Right.


I'm going to assume English isn't your native language so I'll try to make it simple for you:

-All MCU movies are the same. That is the point I made originally and I never denied it.

-I mentioned CGI but it had NOTHING to do with my point and it is merely based on opinion. The facts of the matter are 

1. Disney is an evil company
2. All MCU films follow a mold and a formula

Just because I brought up CGI as part of my opinion on the MCU doesn't mean it had to do with the original discussion and the fact that you're STILL dwelling on it shows you have no valid contribution to this conversation.

CGI, character development, etc are all a matter of opinion. I brought up CGI because I personally hate it in all the MCU films. Whether it's good or not it does look the same. 

I never changed the subject at any point yet you *just said* "let's just talk about marvel" when this is the DC forum. You keep talking about how successful the MCU is when that was never the discussion in the first place. That is changing the subject.

----------


## Elmo

> So it's wrong to not like the MCU approach for film? 
> 
> From Iron Man to Black Panther, every single MCU film has no distinct qualities in their narrative and formulaic approach aside from Black Panther. Furthermore, each MCU film are so alike that you cannot distinguish their directors, and you notice they are all mostly producer and corporate driven. To go even further, the writing in most MCU films are weak, and have trivial and undeveloped themes stemmed from weak conflicts between weak villains and generic comedic heroes. The MCU is killing comic book films as an art and are making them entertainment events of the year, fads that will not be remembered in the long run anytime soon.
> 
> Watchmen, Man Of Steel, Batman v. Superman, are all quality films made from passion and love of the characters. There are fundamental themes and character development at hand that stem from actual love for filmmaking that is indistinguishable from any other director. You can tell they are Zack Snyder films. They are masterpieces of the CBM genre because they are brilliantly executed in writing, acting, direction, and so much more. 
> 
> As Elmo said, I would take more of those than most MCU films, aside from Black Panther.


These are exactly my views. No matter what anyone says Zack Snyder's films (with Justice League as an exception) are distinctly his with his vision. That in itself shows how much WB cares about the art of filmmaking. The proof is in the pudding, not some conjectured blog post.

----------


## EyesWideKubrick

> These are exactly my views. No matter what anyone says Zack Snyder's films (with Justice League as an exception) are distinctly his with his vision. That in itself shows how much WB cares about the art of filmmaking. The proof is in the pudding, not some conjectured blog post.


Yep.

And with the belt of directors WB has, they are all talented and not divisive. The films are going to be director driven and WB will not meddle with them because of how established they already are.

----------


## mace11

> and you even like DC?


Of course i do.
Some of my 10 top favorite superheroes movies are dc movies,but on average i like marvel movies more and i theer are more marvel moves that are my favoite superhero movies then dc.
I just said in one my post i like all dceu movies i have seen so far.
I dc and marvel,i just happen to like marvel more.
I don't have any favorite dc superheroes any more however.
All my favorite superheroes are in marvel now,but i still read some of the dc comics and watch all the movies,all the cartoons and most of live action shows.
If i have time even the shows i have not watch i may watch later other like preacher and lucfier.
I watch all of dc cw shows including izombie.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> So it's wrong to not like the MCU approach for film? 
> 
> From Iron Man to Black Panther, every single MCU film has no distinct qualities in their narrative and formulaic approach aside from Black Panther. Furthermore, each MCU film are so alike that you cannot distinguish their directors, and you notice they are all mostly producer and corporate driven. To go even further, the writing in most MCU films are weak, and have trivial and undeveloped themes stemmed from weak conflicts between weak villains and generic comedic heroes. The MCU is killing comic book films as an art and are making them entertainment events of the year, fads that will not be remembered in the long run anytime soon.
> 
> *Watchmen, Man Of Steel, Batman v. Superman, are all quality films made from passion and love of the characters. There are fundamental themes and character development at hand that stem from actual love for filmmaking that is indistinguishable from any other director. You can tell they are Zack Snyder films. They are masterpieces of the CBM genre because they are brilliantly executed in writing, acting, direction, and so much more.* 
> 
> As Elmo said, I would take more of those than most MCU films, aside from Black Panther.


Everything in this post is a head-scratcher, especially the bolded part.

----------


## mace11

> I'm going to assume English isn't your native language so I'll try to make it simple for you:


Don't assume anything.
Thank you.




> -All MCU movies are the same. That is the point I made originally and I never denied it.


I gave you facts,and i said you ARE  wrong and you did deny it,so stop the spin.





> -I mentioned CGI but it had NOTHING to do with my point and it is merely based on opinion. The facts of the matter are



It does because it was one of your points to bashing the mcu.
You mention it and it became of the subjects,like it or not.




> 1. Disney is an evil company


Some would say wb is and many would disagree with your view of course.




> 2. All MCU films follow a mold and a formula


Look at recent posts i posted talking about that.
It says you wrong.





> Just because I brought up CGI as part of my opinion on the MCU doesn't mean it had to do with the original discussion and the fact that you're STILL dwelling on it shows you have no valid contribution to this conversation.


Nope, i am not focusing on that,you are.
The main  topic was the marvel formula i was replying to you about.
That's the main topic i was replying to about on a dc forum that you mention.
Look you can't throw a rock and hide your hand and pretend you did not throw it when you get caught.



> CGI, character development, etc are all a matter of opinion. I brought up CGI because I personally hate it in all the MCU films. Whether it's good or not it does look the same.


If you hate mcu cgi,you must really hate dceu cgi,since it is  worse.
By the way to prove that i am not a hater like you i like dceu cgi too.
I think mcu and dceu cgi overall is well done.





> I never changed the subject at any point yet you *just said* "let's just talk about marvel" when this is the DC forum. You keep talking about how successful the MCU is when that was never the discussion in the first place. That is changing the subject.


We talking about marvel like  or not since you are bashing marvel.
If it is dc forum why did you talk about marvel in first place.
You should have ignored the poster.
You could have said you do not want disney buying marvel and leave  it at that,but then you went on a  marvel bashing spree and talking about disney and bashing them too.
In fact half or most of your post was about marvel.
You talking about changing the subject and you are trying to  change the subject.

Like i said you are playing games.
By the way just because you grew up liking marvel does not mean you still like marvel today.
The way you talk that's how  it looks like it to me.
So i was getting to a point about that and finally i made it.
If you still like marvel today,but hate the mcu,that's up to you.

----------


## Elmo

> Don't assume anything.
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I gave you facts,and i said you ARE  wrong and you did denied it,so stop the spin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm assuming it because your grammar makes you extremely difficult to understand. Like I literally can't piece together anything you're saying to me right now, no offense.

Regardless of your own opinions, what you're talking about and what I'm talking about are different. You need to accept that I hate the MCU and simply move on.

----------


## mace11

> I'm assuming it because your grammar makes you extremely difficult to understand. Like I literally can't piece together anything you're saying to me right now, no offense.
> 
> Regardless of your own opinions, what you're talking about and what I'm talking about are different. You need to accept that I hate the MCU and simply move on.


Stop changing the subject.
It has nothing  with grammar because clearly you read my posts fine.
They are clearly not hard or difficult  to understand,so you making that up.
You could hate the mcu all you want,but clearly saying it is formulaic is out right wrong.
So you and i could  now simple move on.

----------


## Elmo

> Stop changing the subject.
> It has nothing  with grammar because clearly you read my post fine.
> They are clearly not hard or difficult  to understand,so you making that up
> You could hate the mcu all you want,but clearly saying it is formulaic is out right wrong.
> So you and i could not simple move on.


No I didn't dude, I'm not changing the subject just simply explaining why it's hard for me to understand you.

It's not wrong...cool if you enjoy it, but I'm clearly not the only one who feels that way

----------


## mace11

> No I didn't dude, I'm not changing the subject just simply explaining why it's hard for me to understand you.
> 
> It's not wrong...cool if you enjoy it, but I'm clearly not the only one who feels that way


I guess you now trying to be  new grammer police in the dc forum.
It's not hard for you to understand me and you did try to change to subject.
My words are written  clear enough or clear.
I enjoy all of it,dceu and mcu.
I just happen to enjoy the mcu more on average then the  dceu.

----------


## Elmo

> I guess you now trying to be  new grammer police in the dc forum.
> It's not hard for you to understand me and you did try to change to subject.
> My words are written  clear enough or clear.
> I enjoy all of it,dceu and mcu.
> I just happen to enjoy the mcu more on average then the  dceu.


"My words are written  clear enough or clear."

What does this sentence even mean? That's my point, I don't understand you. You're right I'm the grammar police, I'm trying to have a discussion here and if I can't understand you that discussion cannot be had. We're getting sidetracked and I'm done. When you decide to have a meaningful response instead of more sidetracking and finger pointing I'll respond but no more of this.

Good for you that you like both. Again, wasn't part of the discussion, since my whole point had nothing to do with which one was better or more successful.

----------


## mace11

> "My words are written  clear enough or clear."
> 
> What does this sentence even mean? That's my point, I don't understand you. You're right I'm the grammar police, I'm trying to have a discussion here and if I can't understand you that discussion cannot be had. We're getting sidetracked and I'm done. When you decide to have a meaningful response instead of more sidetracking and finger pointing I'll respond but no more of this.
> 
> Good for you that you like both. Again, wasn't part of the discussion, since my whole point had nothing to do with which one was better or more successful.


You don't understand English?
Clearly you understood what was written.
The tactic like some debaters like you do is  bring up grammer.
It's a old  tactic i have seen in history and comicbook forums all the time.
Some like you would attack a english teacher if you have to.
Word of advice by the way.
You said  you hate the mcu.
It's not healthy to hate.
It's a waste of time.
By the way if you ARE  done,then don't reply back to my post and move on.
Simple as that.

----------


## Elmo

> You don't understand English?
> Clearly you understood what was written.
> The tactic like some debaters like you do is  bring up grammer.
> It's old a tactic i have seen in history and comicbook forums all the time.
> Some like you would attack an english teacher if you have too.
> Word of advice by the way.
> You said hate the mcu by the way 
> It's not healthy to hate.
> It's waste of time.
> ...


It's not a tactic, I legitimately cannot follow what you are saying. I'm not trying to insult you just explaining why it's not easy for me to understand you. Perhaps that's a fault of my own. I can vaguely peace things together but it's difficult. Sorry man. 

Don't worry about my health, I'm fine. I can like or dislike whatever I want and so can you. Thanks again for turning this entire conversation into a complete mess

----------


## mace11

> It's not a tactic, I legitimately cannot follow what you are saying. I'm not trying to insult you just explaining why it's not easy for me to understand you. Perhaps that's a fault of my own. I can vaguely peace things together but it's difficult. Sorry man. 
> 
> Don't worry about my health, I'm fine. I can like or dislike whatever I want and so can you. Thanks again for turning this entire conversation into a complete mess


You understand what i was saying.
I just don't understand why you need to lie.
It is a tactic.
If you did not understand what i was saying then why you are replying back word for word on what i wrote?
You are Playing games again.
By the way the conversation turn into a complete mess  before i even replied to you when you lied about the mcu being formulaic.

Now are you going to move on like you said?
I hope so.

----------


## Elmo

> You understand what i was saying.
> I just don't understand why you need to lie.
> It is a tactic.
> If you did not understand what i was saying then why you are replying back word for word on what i wrote?
> You are Playing games again.
> By the way the conversation turn into a complete mess  before i even replied to you and when you lied about the mcu being formulaic.
> 
> Now are going move on like you said?
> I hope so.


Wasn't a lie, that's just the truth...they are the same, each film fits the same mold despite having different storylines and character dynamics. Because Disney doesn't care about making good movies, they just want money. They don't care about filmmaking at all whatsoever.

----------


## vasir12

Shazam and Aquaman look like they'll be good movies

----------


## Jokerz79

> So we can get a barrage of the same basic formulaic bullshit 4 times a year? No thanks. Filmmaking is an art form and Disney shits all over that art form. WB may not be consistent with their vision for the DCEU but at least the directors' films are distinctly THEIR movies. 
> 
> Good filmmaking and respect for the art > making nerds happy.


James Gunn made Guardians his as did Taika Waititi did with Thor Ragnarok, Look at Rocketeer and you can see the Joe Johnston's touches just as the Russo's added theirs to the sequels and when you compare Civil War to the Avengers films you can see where the Russo's and Whedon differed and Whedon's influence and Ryan Coogler added his touches to Black Panther. As for story I'm sorry so far the DCEU have added nothing deep or transformative to the medium. By all evidence given Justice League, BvS, & SS it would appear for all the talk of WB being a director's studio it's Disney and Marvel who gives their directors more creative freedom just with storyline guidelines.

----------


## Elmo

> James Gunn made Guardians his as did Taika Waititi did with Thor Ragnarok, Look at Rocketeer and you can see the Joe Johnston's touches just as the Russo's added theirs to the sequels and when you compare Civil War to the Avengers films you can see where the Russo's and Whedon differed and Whedon's influence and Ryan Coogler added his touches to Black Panther. As for story I'm sorry so far the DCEU have added nothing deep or transformative to the medium. By all evidence given Justice League, BvS, & SS it would appear for all the talk of WB being a director's studio it's Disney and Marvel who gives their directors more creative freedom just with storyline guidelines.


Please see my point on page 1690

I have no doubts that those directors had some input in terms of technique and style, however the simple fact remains that each film fits into the same mold Disney has crafted for these movies so they can be successful. The Russo bros for example have no style. They did some TV episodes and then made big budget superhero flicks that were overseen by a studio and producers and business people and not anyone with a passion for art.

Again, like everyone else, you are assuming that I said the DC movies are better which is not what I said at all. I said Disney has no respect for the art of filmmaking and the Marvel movies aren't memorable because they are all the same. I don't like either franchise but I support the DCEU because since its inception the idea was for the universe to be filmmaker driven. Man of Steel, BvS, Wonder Woman, and Suicide Squad (despite it not being a very good film) are all filmmaker driven and despite the big muck up that was Justice League Warner Bros is going to continue to push that, and that is why I support them. The argument was not about which one was better or more successful.

----------


## mace11

> Wasn't a lie, that's just the truth...they are the same, each film fits the same mold despite having different storylines and character dynamics. Because Disney doesn't care about making good movies, they just want money. They don't care about filmmaking at all whatsoever.



Marvel studios really make the  films.
Marvel entertainment makes the mcu shows.

All of it is mcu and Disney does care about making good movies and care about film making.
All movie studios want money,wb,fox etc..
So that's nothing new.


Anyway here some views about wb and the dceu.



> steven patterson2 days ago
> Maybe if dc/Warner’s actually had a formula they would make a good solid movie, instead of changing idea half way through a story arc ( to try and be more like the marvel movies ) now they are throwing Snyder under the bus,the company is a joke﻿
> 
> by Fletcher_Drumming2 days ago
> The problem is that DC hasn't given me the sense of darkness since The Dark Night. Suicide Squad wasn't dark, WW wasn't dark, superman wasn't dark, Justice league wasn't dark. The only one that was dark was Batman vs Superman and it still wasn't all that dark. Don't get me wrong I like DC, but if Avengers 3 and 4 are as good as they look then they really have DC beaten. The biggest problem with DC is that they are trying to rush too much.﻿
> 
> by
> Marvel live action movies has beaten dc live action movies already,more so if you combined the non-mcu marvel films with the mcu marvel fillms.﻿

----------


## mace11

> Shazam and Aquaman look like they'll be good movies


I think so too.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> Wasn't a lie, that's just the truth...they are the same, each film fits the same mold despite having different storylines and character dynamics. Because Disney doesn't care about making good movies, they just want money. They don't care about filmmaking at all whatsoever.


And what is filmmaking to you? 

Also having the same mold is literally inaccurate when they possess different story-lines and characters. It stops being the same mold when something has changed. Also all studios want to make money else they don't have a business.

----------


## Elmo

> Marvel studios really make the  films.
> Marvel entertainment makes the mcu shows.
> 
> All of it is mcu and Disney does care about making good movies and care about filmingmaking.
> All movie studios want money,wb,fox etc..
> So that's nothing new.
> 
> 
> Anyway here some views about wb and the dceu.


When did I even mention the shows?

I don't care about views on the DCEU. You're literally sidetracking again.

Show me evidence that Disney cares about making good movies and filmmaking.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Please see my point on page 1690
> 
> I have no doubts that those directors had some input in terms of technique and style, however the simple fact remains that each film fits into the same mold Disney has crafted for these movies so they can be successful. The Russo bros for example have no style. They did some TV episodes and then made big budget superhero flicks that were overseen by a studio and producers and business people and not anyone with a passion for art.
> 
> Again, like everyone else, you are assuming that I said the DC movies are better which is not what I said at all. I said Disney has no respect for the art of filmmaking and the Marvel movies aren't memorable because they are all the same. I don't like either franchise but I support the DCEU because since its inception the idea was for the universe to be filmmaker driven. Man of Steel, BvS, Wonder Woman, and Suicide Squad (despite it not being a very good film) are all filmmaker driven and despite the big muck up that was Justice League Warner Bros is going to continue to push that, and that is why I support them. The argument was not about which one was better or more successful.


Iron Man and Incredible Hulk fit the Marvel "Mold" and they predate Disney perhaps Marvel makes these films because they know it's what the audience wants and they want to please them? Wonder Woman is a great film but as creatively distinctive as a Marvel Movie and in other cases maybe reigning in the creator isn't bad when creating a larger universe given the messes of the Snyder films and SS. Snyder is no amazing director and honestly I don't even credit him as a great cinematographer anymore given most of his films are mostly CGI. He takes great source materials going back to his first film Dawn of the Dead and makes a lesser product but it looks "Cool". As for the style over substance which the DCEU is how are they giving their creators freedom when they do hack jobs to the films in the editing room? Say what you will about the visuals but the film released is what the Marvel Directors intended them to be no one is asking for their directors cuts to be released because they already were in theaters. Last I think the last few Marvel films have all had great style like BP, Thor Ragnarok, and Guardians.

----------


## maxmcco

> Shazam and Aquaman look like they'll be good movies


They do. And they kind of have to be for this cinematic universe to survive. Who'd have thought it would all come down to Aquaman. So much pressure on a movie to do well. I think if anyone can do it though, it's James Wan. If Aquaman doesn't do well, DC would be wise to edit all references to the DCU out of Shazam.

----------


## mace11

> When did I even mention the shows?
> 
> I don't care about views on the DCEU. You're literally sidetracking again.
> 
> Show me evidence that Disney cares about making good movies and filmmaking.



I mention those views because there is a growing view that wb should give up the rights to dc.
I don't think it will ever happen but what should happen is that dc  should have more control of dc characters.






> I don't care about views on the DCEU. You're literally sidetracking again.


Not true.




> Show me evidence that Disney cares about making good movies and filmmaking


Most folks like Disney movies and they make money.
Just look at the critic and audience scores.
Your views are a minority if  you don't believe that.

----------


## Styles

Some Aquaman news. Dolph Lundgren says that his version of Nereus will be Meras father. 

'Aquaman' Star Dolph Lundgren Confirms Mera Rumor, Reveals Plot Details

----------


## Elmo

> Iron Man and Incredible Hulk fit the Marvel "Mold" and they predate Disney perhaps Marvel makes these films because they know it's what the audience wants and they want to please them? Wonder Woman is a great film but as creatively distinctive as a Marvel Movie and in other cases maybe reigning in the creator isn't bad when creating a larger universe given the messes of the Snyder films and SS. Snyder is no amazing director and honestly I don't even credit him as a great cinematographer anymore given most of his films are mostly CGI. He takes great source materials going back to his first film Dawn of the Dead and makes a lesser product but it looks "Cool". As for the style over substance which the DCEU is how are they giving their creators freedom when they do hack jobs to the films in the editing room. Say what you will about the visuals but the film released is what the Marvel Directors intended them to be no one is asking for their directors cuts to be released because they already were in theaters. Last I think the last few Marvel films have all had great style like BP, Thor Ragnarok, and Guardians.


They fit the mold because the whole formula is based on the same tone and sense of humor from the earlier films to keep fans from the beginning coming back with no real deviation or new steps forward. 

That's cool that you're not a Snyder fan but it wasn't my point. My point is that movies like Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are HIS movies with his vision and his art. It's not about whether you like it or not it's about the mere concept of a superhero universe that is driven by filmmakers and not studio oversight. It is a *filmmaker led universe*. The reason so many filmmakers have parted ways with the DCEU is because the direction of these films are solely up to them and the writers and a lot of the time not everyone will agree. But some blog will come along and claim that Warner Bros is putting their fist down and trying to control the operation when that isn't the case at all. It's a free and open ended universe with the idea that filmmakers have complete freedom and control over the story and the characters. Like I said, Justice League was a tragic exception and hopefully one that will not be made again.

Also cool that you liked the most recent Marvel movies. Again, *not my point.*

Whatever you like or dislike is of no concern to me. The Marvel formula has clearly worked because millions of people eat it up and will continue to for years. The whole point of this conversation was me saying I don't want DC properties in the hands of Disney because I don't like what they've done with the MCU. Emphasis on _I_ . As in me. You're over here talking about Zack Snyder and which one is better. That wasn't what I was talking about at all. I literally could not care less about your interests or opinions on certain directors. No offense.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> I mention those views because there is a growing view that wb should give up the rights to dc.
> I don't think it will ever happen but what should happen is that dc  should have more control of dc characters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not true.
> 
> 
> ...


You are very, VERY defensive of the MCU.

That's sweet. But, you know what? I'm pretty sure that the series is strong and well established enough to cope with the odd barbed comment and negative opinion.

----------


## Elmo

> Some Aquaman news. Dolph Lundgren says that his version of Nereus will be Mera’s father. 
> 
> 'Aquaman' Star Dolph Lundgren Confirms Mera Rumor, Reveals Plot Details


I wonder if Dolph knows that's kind of a spoiler

I guess this isn't inspired by the New 52 since weren't Mera and Nereus married at one point?

Either way should be interesting

----------


## Colossus1980

> They do. And they kind of have to be for this cinematic universe to survive. Who'd have thought it would all come down to Aquaman. So much pressure on a movie to do well. I think if anyone can do it though, it's James Wan. If Aquaman doesn't do well, DC would be wise to edit all references to the DCU out of Shazam.


So true.  A lot of pressure for Aquaman to do well to make everyone forget about Justice League's disappointing box office.  Personally I enjoyed it but thought it could have been better.  Sad to think there might not be a sequel in the future, or at least with the present cast.  Again unfair for Aquaman to bear such a burden.

Still can't believe DCEU is only putting out one movie for 2018.  Such a waste.

----------


## kurenai24

> Really bad.


Heh, I like this gif.

But no DC fanboy who hates Marvel and Disney has this to worry about, unless WB themselves decides to sell off DC Comics, but they wouldn't WB is a big company who if they feel they can't make money off of DC will shelf to be used 10 yrs later.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Aquaman test screening on Wednesday 

https://twitter.com/ViewerAnon/statu...79928401641472

Expect to hear some reactions soon. In case anyone is not familiar with this person, he was the one to  accurately describe the whole plot of Justice League  from his  test screening on Reddit.  He's 100%  legit. 

Keep in mind  even if the Aquaman test screening reactions are super-positive doesn't mean it's an indicator for how the actual completed cut released in theaters will be received.  Suicide Squad can certainly attest to that. 

Don't want to be a negative nancy, but take those twitter reactions(if they're positive) with a huge grain of salt when/if they're posted.

----------


## Frontier

> Some Aquaman news. Dolph Lundgren says that his version of Nereus will be Mera’s father. 
> 
> 'Aquaman' Star Dolph Lundgren Confirms Mera Rumor, Reveals Plot Details


I wonder if they're going with the origin that Mera was raised to kill Arthur?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I wonder if Dolph knows that's kind of a spoiler
> 
> I guess this isn't inspired by the New 52 since weren't Mera and Nereus married at one point?
> 
> Either way should be interesting


I remember reading a rumor from an Aquaman fan account on Twitter that some of Geoff Johns' unused Aquaman ideas were in the movie.

It's a notion that's buried underneath lots of grains of salt, but maybe that would've been a big plot twist for his Aquaman had he ever gotten around to Seven Seas? :P

----------


## Beantownbrown

> Some Aquaman news. Dolph Lundgren says that his version of Nereus will be Mera’s father. 
> 
> 'Aquaman' Star Dolph Lundgren Confirms Mera Rumor, Reveals Plot Details


Makes sense. He's old. It would've been weird to see them as lovers. But why use Nereus as her father? Does she not have a father in the comics?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Makes sense. He's old. It would've been weird to see them as lovers. But why use Nereus as her father? Does she not have a father in the comics?


I think they are going with a _Romeo and Juliet_ angle instead. Which is cool as it hasn't been done in a superhero movie before. Having Mera just be a generic spy for Atlantis or Xebel would have been too similar to Nakia in _Black Panther_, and _Aquaman_ will be drawing enough comparisons to that film as is.

----------


## Frontier

> I remember reading a rumor from an Aquaman fan account on Twitter that some of Geoff Johns' unused Aquaman ideas were in the movie.
> 
> It's a notion that's buried underneath lots of grains of salt, but maybe that would've been a big plot twist for his Aquaman had he ever gotten around to Seven Seas? :P


They never really did much with Mera's father in what we've seen of him in flashbacks, other then him training her to kill Aquaman and then not responding well when she turns loyal to Arthur, so that might be something they're going to explore now that they're combining him with Nereus.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I mention those views because there is a growing view that wb should give up the rights to dc.
> I don't think it will ever happen but what should happen is that dc  should have more control of dc characters.


That would be akin to Ford giving up the rights the the Mustang.




> But no DC fanboy who hates Marvel and Disney has this to worry about, unless WB themselves decides to sell off DC Comics, but they wouldn't WB is a big company who if they feel they can't make money off of DC will shelf to be used 10 yrs later.


I get the idea some people have this misguided idea that all Warner Bros. does with the DC characters is make live action movies with DC characters and are totally oblivious to the fact that Warner Bros.
also makes live action TV shows, animated TV shows, animated movies, video games, publishes comic books, and licenses toys and merchandise based on DC characters.  Movies are only a fraction
of that.  If Warner Bros. were to stop making live action movies based on DC characters, which they won't, Warner Bros. would still be making a ton of money off DC characters.  The DC live action 
TV shows alone made over $1 billion for Warner Bros. last year. That's almost as much as the movies. What possible incentive would Warner Bros. have to give all that away to Disney?

----------


## Serpico Jones

Justin Kroll from Variety says a huge announcement is coming later today. Could be DC related.

----------


## Jokerz79

> They fit the mold because the whole formula is based on the same tone and sense of humor from the earlier films to keep fans from the beginning coming back with no real deviation or new steps forward. 
> 
> That's cool that you're not a Snyder fan but it wasn't my point. My point is that movies like Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are HIS movies with his vision and his art. It's not about whether you like it or not it's about the mere concept of a superhero universe that is driven by filmmakers and not studio oversight. It is a *filmmaker led universe*. The reason so many filmmakers have parted ways with the DCEU is because the direction of these films are solely up to them and the writers and a lot of the time not everyone will agree. But some blog will come along and claim that Warner Bros is putting their fist down and trying to control the operation when that isn't the case at all. It's a free and open ended universe with the idea that filmmakers have complete freedom and control over the story and the characters. Like I said, Justice League was a tragic exception and hopefully one that will not be made again.
> 
> Also cool that you liked the most recent Marvel movies. Again, *not my point.*
> 
> Whatever you like or dislike is of no concern to me. The Marvel formula has clearly worked because millions of people eat it up and will continue to for years. The whole point of this conversation was me saying I don't want DC properties in the hands of Disney because I don't like what they've done with the MCU. Emphasis on _I_ . As in me. You're over here talking about Zack Snyder and which one is better. That wasn't what I was talking about at all. I literally could not care less about your interests or opinions on certain directors. No offense.


You keep talking about how the DCEU films are art and their filmmakers are allowed to create their art and vision unlike the Marvel movies which are simply formulaic. But you're wrong the Guardians are very much James Gunn's vision and art the awesome mix tape was his idea, taserface was his idea, he gave Lloyd Kaufman a cameo same with Taiki Waikiki and Thor Ragnarok. Even the Avengers films have a lot of Whedon in them and it's very obvious when comparing the Avengers in Civil War. Yet for all this talk about Snyder's vision the most widely seen version of BvS was the theatrical cut which was butchered by the studio so they could get a shorty run time for more viewings which ironically no one came back for once seeing their hack job and Justice League is clearly not his vision or why want a director's cut?  Story wise the DCEU is no more ground breaking than the MCU as for artist vision Marvel and Disney have allowed their directors to put their own stamps onto the properties and unlike WB Disney actually showed the Directors visions for the films in theaters.

----------


## Elmo

> You keep talking about how the DCEU films are art and their filmmakers are allowed to create their art and vision unlike the Marvel movies which are simply formulaic. But you're wrong the Guardians are very much James Gunn's vision and art the awesome mix tape was his idea, taserface was his idea, he gave Lloyd Kaufman a cameo same with Taiki Waikiki and Thor Ragnarok. Even the Avengers films have a lot of Whedon in them and it's very obvious when comparing the Avengers in Civil War. Yet for all this talk about Snyder's vision the most widely seen version of BvS was the theatrical cut which was butchered by the studio so they could get a shorty run time for more viewings which ironically no one came back for once seeing their hack job and Justice League is clearly not his vision or why want a director's cut?  Story wise the DCEU is no more ground breaking than the MCU as for artist vision Marvel and Disney have allowed their directors to put their own stamps onto the properties and unlike WB Disney actually showed the Directors visions for the films in theaters.


Just because a director adds their own quirks and ideas to a film doesn't mean the movies as a whole are not formulaic. I never said the movies aren't their own or that the DCEU films are art. I said WB respects the art of filmmaking by having a shared universe that is led by filmmakers and not a studio. I also never brought up the story and it was Snyder himself along with the studio who made the cuts for the theatrical relase to BvS. Despite issues with the editing his vision came across just fine in the film. If you liked it or not that's your own opinion and once again, was never the discussion.

I also never claimed it was groundbreaking or better than the MCU. I said I dislike the MCU because they are formulaic and made to fit a Hollywoodized blockbuster mold, which is COMPLETELY fine if you enjoy that, I just do not enjoy it. I don't like most of the DCEU films. I support the DCEU because the premise around it is a filmmaker driven universe. The fact that I have to keep bringing this up and you still cannot wrap your head around it is getting ridiculous at this point.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Just because a director adds their own quirks and ideas to a film doesn't mean the movies as a whole are not formulaic. I never said the movies aren't their own or that the DCEU films are art. I said WB respects the art of filmmaking by having a shared universe that is led by filmmakers and not a studio. I also never brought up the story and it was Snyder himself along with the studio who made the cuts for the theatrical relase to BvS. Despite issues with the editing his vision came across just fine in the film. If you liked it or not that's your own opinion and once again, was never the discussion.
> 
> I also never claimed it was groundbreaking or better than the MCU. I said I dislike the MCU because they are formulaic and made to fit a Hollywoodized blockbuster mold, which is COMPLETELY fine if you enjoy that, I just do not enjoy it. I don't like most of the DCEU films. I support the DCEU because the premise around it is a filmmaker driven universe. The fact that I have to keep bringing this up and you still cannot wrap your head around it is getting ridiculous at this point.


You said the Snyder's DCEU films are his movies, his vision, his ART. So yes you called the films art if it's his art it's art. Also how can a studio be filmmaker driven when they constantly mess with the filmmakers films?

----------


## Elmo

> You said the Snyder's DCEU films are his movies, his vision, his ART. So yes you called the films art if it's his art it's art. Also how can a studio be filmmaker driven when they constantly mess with the filmmakers films?


Filmmaking in itself is art. By that definition, Zack Snyder, being a filmmaker, is an artist. When an artist has his own project that he is fully committed to and completely in control of, that art belongs to him. So it is literally HIS art. 

There are literally two instances where WB "messed" with the films-- Suicide Squad and Justice League, so "constantly" is an incorrect word to use. Both of those films turned out awful. In any case the premise always remained the same and despite the cut of Suicide Squad not being the one Ayer intended to release, it was still his movie and unique; nothing like the other films in the DCEU but still fitting in that universe. However, it was a bad movie.

The DCEU continues to be filmmaker driven, giving filmmakers the option of which film they should choose to direct and letting them have control, opening up new opportunities for writers and new filmmakers.

----------


## Colossus1980

People always like to throw out that world formulaic as if there's a guarantee to make a movie a box office success.  If it was true every studio would do this and ensure ongoing franchises all the time.  2017 saw a lot of franchises crash and burn.  Where was the formula to ensure their success?

----------


## Elmo

> People always like to throw out that world formulaic as if there's a guarantee to make a movie a box office success.  If it was true every studio would do this and ensure ongoing franchises all the time.  2017 saw a lot of franchises crash and burn.  Where was the formula to ensure their success?


A formula doesn't mean success. Disney just happens to have one that has been wildly successful and that's why they haven't released a film deviating from that formula, because it works and they don't want to take the risk despite taking risks with certain characters in the past.

I was just recently talking in another thread about Transformers; those films are also formulaic but their formula hasn't been successful given how they won't even have an engaging storyline or interesting characters and their main goal (selling toys) failed dramatically from the very start.

----------


## Myskin

Quite frankly, DC hasn't made a creator-driven movie since the Nolan trilogy. And even THAT one happened because of very peculiar circumstances.

If a cinema lover is looking for creator-driven movies, he/she shouldn't look at superhero movies in general. Well, he/she shouldn't look at Hollywood blockbusters at all.

----------


## Carabas

> These are exactly my views. No matter what anyone says Zack Snyder's films (with Justice League as an exception) are distinctly his with his vision.


They sort of are. This is not a good thing. Although Snyder's vision did not include Man Of Steel being part of a DCEU.




> That in itself shows how much WB cares about the art of filmmaking.


No, it does not. Letting a hack make crappy movies does prove you care.

----------


## Elmo

> They sort of are. This is not a good thing. *Although Snyder's vision did not include Man Of Steel being part of a DCEU.*
> 
> No, it does not. Letting a hack make crappy movies does prove you care.


That's not true. Snyder literally created and mapped out the entire DCEU himself. But that's not the point.

Snyder being a "hack" or the movies being "crappy" are your opinion and were never a part of the discussion. The fact that you people STILL aren't understanding what the whole topic was about in the first place is utterly dumbfounding to me.

----------


## Elmo

> Quite frankly, DC hasn't made a creator-driven movie since the Nolan trilogy. And even THAT one happened because of very peculiar circumstances.
> 
> If a cinema lover is looking for creator-driven movies, he/she shouldn't look at superhero movies in general. Well, he/she shouldn't look at Hollywood blockbusters at all.


I said that I respect a superhero universe that is filmmaker driven. I'm not "looking" for creator-driven movies and simply choosing the DCEU. I merely explained why I support the DCEU over the MCU. I didn't make this up. This is what Charles Roven, Geoff Johns, and countless others have been continuously saying the DCEU is about. That is WHY I chose to support it. 

I'm trying my hardest to be civil here, I really am. But people still aren't grasping what this conversation was even about in the first place and are severely misinterpreting my own views on the DCEU and superhero films in general.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Filmmaking in itself is art. By that definition, Zack Snyder, being a filmmaker, is an artist. When an artist has his own project that he is fully committed to and completely in control of, that art belongs to him. So it is literally HIS art. 
> 
> There are literally two instances where WB "messed" with the films-- Suicide Squad and Justice League, so "constantly" is an incorrect word to use. Both of those films turned out awful. In any case the premise always remained the same and despite the cut of Suicide Squad not being the one Ayer intended to release, it was still his movie and unique; nothing like the other films in the DCEU but still fitting in that universe. However, it was a bad movie.
> 
> The DCEU continues to be filmmaker driven, giving filmmakers the option of which film they should choose to direct and letting them have control, opening up new opportunities for writers and new filmmakers.


Don't try to explain art to me when you keep changing your definition every other post because two post ago you said this "I never said the movies aren't their own or that the DCEU films are art." The only reason I brought up art stuff was because you call the Snyder films art because he gets to create his visions while ignoring it seems that the MCU did the same with their directors. 

Also there are 3 not 2 3 times WB ordered editing changes to films first time was BvS they ordered it cut down for time because they wanted to be able to have more viewings in theaters. It's why we have a Theatrical Cut and a Ultimate Cut. Then Suicide Squad was changed by a trailer house for god sake, and last the Frankenstein which is Justice League. That's 3 out of 5 films so yeah constantly kind of fits to me when since they started meddling they've left only one film Wonder Woman alone.

----------


## Myskin

> I said that I respect a superhero universe that is filmmaker driven. I'm not "looking" for creator-driven movies and simply choosing the DCEU. I merely explained why I support the DCEU over the MCU. I didn't make this up. This is what Charles Roven, Geoff Johns, and countless others have been continuously saying the DCEU is about. That is WHY I chose to support it.


Ok. They said it. So what? I mean, even if they said it, they didn't make them. And when they made them (I guess that MOS can be included in the "creator-driven" category, even if I am not 100% sure about that), the movies were divisive at best. Not because they were particularly complex and misunderstood masterpieces, but just because they were influenced by some very bizarre and divisive choices which nobody really knows why they were put in the movies in the very first place.

----------


## Carabas

> Snyder being a "hack" or the movies being "crappy" are your opinion and were never a part of the discussion. The fact that you people STILL aren't understanding what the whole topic was about in the first place is utterly dumbfounding to me.


And the MCU being formulaic is your subjective opinion, which is not universally shared.

Honestly, I think you have some Dunning–Kruger stuff going on here if you really think the cut-to-shreds releases of Man Of steel and Dawn Of Justice are Snyders honest to god real vision and intent. Or that Suicide Squad even vaguely resembles the movie Ayer wanted to make.

----------


## Elmo

> Ok. They said it. So what? I mean, even if they said it, they didn't make them. And when they made them (I guess that MOS can be included in the "creator-driven" category, even if I am not 100% sure about that), the movies were divisive at best. Not because they were particularly complex and misunderstood masterpieces, but just because they were influenced by some very bizarre and divisive choices which nobody really knows why they were put in the movies in the very first place.


What is your point exactly and what relevance does it have in this discussion?

I said I like the premise of the DCEU over the MCU. And from what I have seen aside from two instances, the DCEU has remained largely creator-driven and continues to do that even today with the development of the Flashpoint film.

I never said they were masterpieces or that they were or were not divisive. 

I said that I like the premise of a filmmaker-led superhero universe and that I dislike Disney and the MCU.

THAT, right there, is ALL I said. The second everyone starts realizing that and stops putting words in my mouth, I'll begin to take you seriously.

----------


## Elmo

> And the MCU being formulaic is your subjective opinion, which is not universally shared.
> 
> Honestly, I think you have some Dunning–Kruger stuff going on here if you really think the cut-to-shreds releases of Man Of steel and Dawn Of Justice are Snyders honest to god real vision and intent. Or that Suicide Squad even vaguely resembles the movie Ayer wanted to make.


Just because I see it one way and you see it another doesn't make either of us more incorrect or correct than the other. That's just how I've interpreted it and it's why I support the DCEU over the MCU.

----------


## Myskin

> What is your point exactly and what relevance does it have in this discussion?


Well, the point is that IMHO you are taking way too seriously mission statements ("we are making creator-driven movies") which were nothing but PR and marketing moves. If WB had really wanted to make artistically significant and creatively interesting movies, they would have begun making them 6-7 years ago. It's not that they couldn't. They could have taken a respected and very original creator like Darren Aronofsky and he could have made MOS. Maybe the movie would have been awful, maybe it would have been even more divisive, but I have got a feeling that it would have been unique and original.
Respected filmmakers like Guillermo Del Toro and Jeff Nichols were approached to make DC superhero movies, and they all refused. For MOS Snyder was a second choice. I mean, a lot of creative guys didn't want to work with WB on those movies because they didn't think that the conditions were the most apt to make the movies they wanted and boy, were they right. 

But the whole context is wrong if we are talking about creator-driven choices. I mean, Black Panther is probably the best choice (so far) if you are looking for creator-driven Hollywood blockbusters. I don't think that we will ever get something better than that.

----------


## Elmo

> Well, the point is that IMHO you are taking way too seriously mission statements ("we are making creator-driven movies") which were nothing but PR and marketing moves. If WB had really wanted to make artistically significant and creatively interesting movies, they would have begun making them 6-7 years ago. It's not that they couldn't. They could have taken a respected and very original creator like Darren Aronofsky and he could have made MOS. Maybe the movie would have been awful, maybe it would have been even more divisive, but I have got a feeling that it would have been unique and original.
> Respected filmmakers like Guillermo Del Toro and Jeff Nichols were approached to make DC superhero movies, and they all refused. For MOS Snyder was a second choice. I mean, a lot of creative guys didn't want to work with WB on those movies because they didn't think that the conditions were the most apt to make the movies they wanted and boy, were they right. 
> 
> But the whole context is wrong if we are talking about creator-driven choices. I mean, Black Panther is probably the best choice (so far) if you are looking for creator-driven Hollywood blockbusters. I don't think that we will ever get something better than that.


We can agree to disagree. I thought Black Panther was entertaining and of course highly impactful and important, however the story at its surface was pretty basic and if you were to put white characters in the place of everyone else it would be your average marvel film

I never said WB couldn't do that and who are you to say they haven't ? The point is I appreciate that mission statement and the passion for the art of filmmaking and I believe in their vision. Sorry if you don't but that's just how I feel and you can't change it.

----------


## Myskin

> I never said WB couldn't do that and who are you to say they haven't ? The point is I appreciate that mission statement and the passion for the art of filmmaking and I believe in their vision. Sorry if you don't but that's just how I feel and you can't change it.


You can think whatever you want, but you are deluding yourself if you think that in the current situation WB will ever make a creator-driven shared superhero universe. The current wave of superheroes movies (Marvel and DC) was never creator-driven and it will never be on a regular basis unless some incredible and totally unforeseen event happens. The best you will get from WB is some movie directed by faithful WB employees with an interest for visionary aesthetics. Like James Wan. Or Zack Snyder, for that matter. I seriously doubt that any well-respected creator with a strong vision and personality will ever touch a DC movie again after Suicide Squad and Justice League. Maybe Matt Reeves, if we are very very lucky.

----------


## Carabas

> Just because I see it one way and you see it another doesn't make either of us more incorrect or correct than the other.


That's not really how reality works.

----------


## Elmo

> That's not really how reality works.


Why not? You can't dictate that. I'm allowed to enjoy whatever I want and you have no say in the matter

----------


## Elmo

> You can think whatever you want, but you are deluding yourself if you think that in the current situation WB will ever make a creator-driven shared superhero universe. The current wave of superheroes movies (Marvel and DC) was never creator-driven and it will never be on a regular basis unless some incredible and totally unforeseen event happens. The best you will get from WB is some movie directed by faithful WB employees with an interest for visionary aesthetics. Like James Wan. Or Zack Snyder, for that matter. I seriously doubt that any well-respected creator with a strong vision and personality will ever touch a DC movie again after Suicide Squad and Justice League. Maybe Matt Reeves, if we are very very lucky.


I completely disagree with you.  :Smile:  I think WB, given their history (not just with DC) will continue to push for quality films from quality filmmakers, to honor the art form. That's the impression I get when I hear these creators talk about their films and what I get from the Flashpoint, Shazam, and Aquaman news. Sorry that you disagree but I literally do not care

----------


## Confuzzled

> You can think whatever you want, but you are deluding yourself if you think that in the current situation WB will ever make a creator-driven shared superhero universe. The current wave of superheroes movies (Marvel and DC) was never creator-driven and it will never be on a regular basis unless some incredible and totally unforeseen event happens. The best you will get from WB is some movie directed by faithful WB employees with an interest for visionary aesthetics. Like James Wan. Or Zack Snyder, for that matter. I seriously doubt that any well-respected creator with a strong vision and personality will ever touch a DC movie again after Suicide Squad and Justice League. Maybe Matt Reeves, if we are very very lucky.


Lol James Wan has delivered some of the most successful horror series and films of all time. He ain't no mere "WB faithful". I doubt he would do this if he weren't given sufficient creative control. And what does "visionary aesthetics" mean? That sounds like a good thing.

And is Patty Jenkins not a "respected creator"?

Matthew Vaughn has expressed interest in Man of Steel 2. Ava DuVernay has expressed interest in Big Barda. The director of Ex Machina has expressed interest in Swamp Thing. Martin Scorcese is producing a Joker film. Plenty of "respected creators" are still interested in "touching DC Films".

----------


## Carabas

> Why not? You can't dictate that. I'm allowed to enjoy whatever I want and you have no say in the matter


Yes, but that is not what you were arguing and what I disagreed with.

----------


## Elmo

> Lol James Wan has delivered some of the most successful horror series and films of all time. He ain't no mere "WB faithful". I doubt he would do this if he weren't given sufficient creative control. And what does "visionary aesthetics" mean? That sounds like a good thing.
> 
> And is Patty Jenkins not a "respected creator"?
> 
> Matthew Vaughn has expressed interest in Man of Steel 2. Ava DuVernay has expressed interest in Big Barda. The director of Ex Machina has expressed interest in Swamp Thing. Martin Scorcese is producing a Joker film. Plenty of "respected creators" are still interested in "touching DC Films".


Yes, thank you. This is because WB has always opened the doors for talented creators. Always. It should be no different for the DC stuff. I can understand with big films and years of bad press that they would want to oversee a lot of the projects but they are nowhere near having the level of creative control that Marvel Studios has. They still want their creators to have major creative input and now that Justice League has came and gone they are going to continue down that path.

----------


## Elmo

> Yes, but that is not what you were arguing and what I disagreed with.


That's actually exactly what I was arguing. Lmao

----------


## Myskin

> Lol James Wan has delivered some of the most successful horror series and films of all time. He ain't no mere "WB faithful". I doubt he would do this if he weren't given sufficient creative control. And what does "visionary aesthetics" mean? That sounds like a good thing.


Having an interest in visionary aesthetics doesn't mean that you are particularly good at dealing with those aesthetics or that you are able to create groundbreaking movies, or even movies with a decent narrative. Zack Snyder has an interest in visionary aesthetics - I'd say that the aesthetics is basically the only thing which make his movie distinguishable, and he isn't particularly good at it, either. As for James Wan, his most successful works as a solo director, that is the Conjuring series, are basically harmless blockbusters for the masses with a lot of jump scares. He isn't even remotely in the same league with people like Del Toro (who can be hit and miss, too, but whose Shape of Water is infinitely more interesting than a lot of modern-day horrors) or the most interesting revelations of the latest years - people like Robert Eggers, or David Robert Mitchell.




> And is Patty Jenkins not a "respected creator"?


Patty Jenkins had directed 2 movies 15 years before Wonder Woman. And even if Monster was rather successful she wasn't exactly a consolidated creator when she was approached for WW.




> Matthew Vaughn has expressed interest in Man of Steel 2. Ava DuVernay has expressed interest in Big Barda. The director of Ex Machina has expressed interest in Swamp Thing. Martin Scorcese is producing a Joker film. Plenty of "respected creators" are still interested in "touching DC Films".


A lot of people express interest in a lot of things, and a lot of people SAY that a lot of people are interested in a lot of things. Especially on the internet. If and when anything will come to fruition, it's a wholly different subject.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Having an interest in visionary aesthetics doesn't mean that you are particularly good at dealing with those aesthetics or that you are able to create groundbreaking movies, or even movies with a decent narrative. Zack Snyder has an interest in visionary aesthetics - I'd say that the aesthetics is basically the only thing which make his movie distinguishable, and he isn't particularly good at it, either. As for James Wan, his most successful works as a solo director, that is the Conjuring series, are basically harmless blockbusters for the masses with a lot of jump scares. He isn't even remotely in the same league with people like Del Toro (who can be hit and miss, too, but whose Shape of Water is infinitely more interesting than a lot of modern-day horrors) or the most interesting revelations of the latest years - people like Robert Eggers, or David Robert Mitchell.


Again, I'm not clear as to what you really mean by "visionary aesthetics" and how Wan and Snyder have an interest in them. And I guess it's all subjective, including in the case of Del Toro who many people think is more style than substance and deride The Shape of Water as _Grinding Nemo_ on Twitter.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Bottom line is, Wan has earned his cred by delivering critically acclaimed and commercially successful horror films that have redefined the genre. It doesn't matter that you personally don't think he is all that. He most certainly is a "well-respected creator" in the industry though.




> Patty Jenkins had directed 2 movies 15 years before Wonder Woman. And even if Monster was rather successful she wasn't exactly a consolidated creator when she was approached for WW.


Charlize Theron won an Oscar for Monster. After that, Jenkins became pregnant and took a break, returning to do TV fare like _The Following_ which received Emmy nominations. She was respected before but after Wonder Woman, she definitely IS well-respected now. The entirety of Hollywood is falling over themselves to recognize her.





> A lot of people express interest in a lot of things, and a lot of people SAY that a lot of people are interested in a lot of things. Especially on the internet. If and when anything will come to fruition, it's a wholly different subject.


It still goes against your statement of "no well-respected creator will touch DC Films" though. It all comes down to money, creative control and opportunities opening up in schedules.

----------


## Myskin

> Again, I'm not clear as to what you really mean by "visionary aesthetics" and how Wan and Snyder have an interest in them. And I guess it's all subjective, including in the case of Del Toro who many people think is more style than substance and deride The Shape of Water as _Grinding Nemo_ on Twitter.


Well, a lot of people say a lot of things as I said. But Shape of Water won at some of the most serious and conservative film festival in the world and, quite frankly, that's a hell of achievement. ESPECIALLY considering that it is a monster movie. It also leads the Oscar race with 13 nominations (while Wonder Woman didn't get anything, even if a lot of people said it would. Q.E.D.) 




> Bottom line is, Wan has earned his cred by delivering critically acclaimed and commercially successful horror films that have redefined the genre. It doesn't matter that you personally don't think he is all that.


Trust me, the Conjuring movies live for just a few months and then they die. In terms of what the genre should represent, they are not saying anything new or original (they are basically remakes of the Amityville series) and I have yet to see a serious study or a collection of papers about that particular franchise. Bizarre to say, I think that the Saw series, which is infinitely trashier, is more interesting from a point of view, especially in regards of what we have become in terms of our relationship to the representation of violence. But it is very, VERY trashy and they are not particularly good movies.




> Charlize Theron won an Oscar for Monster. After that, Jenkins became pregnant and took a break, returning to do TV fare like _The Following_ which received Emmy nominations.


My God, has she really made The Following? I wouldn't be proud of that, quite frankly.




> It still goes against your statement of "no well-respected creator will touch DC Films" though.


Well, as long as Martin Scorsese doesn't openly say that he will make a Joker movie I wouldn't use it as a proof that WB is a creator-friendly studio. They are just rumors.

----------


## Carabas

> My God, has she really made The Following? I wouldn't be proud of that, quite frankly.


IMDB says not.
She did do some work on the American version of "The Killing" and something called "Betrayal".

----------


## Myskin

> IMDB says not.
> She did do some work on the American version of "The Killing" and something called "Betrayal".


I guess that the Killing is what they meant. And it is a very enjoyable series, but I think that it's very hard to compare the creative effort spent in directing a couple of commissioned episodes in a larger narrative (with its own showrunner) and being creatively at helm of a whole movie. Just ask Alan Taylor.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Guys, if you want to debate objective facts, great, but make sure to respective everybody's subjective opinions.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Having an interest in visionary aesthetics doesn't mean that you are particularly good at dealing with those aesthetics or that you are able to create groundbreaking movies, or even movies with a decent narrative. Zack Snyder has an interest in visionary aesthetics - I'd say that the aesthetics is basically the only thing which make his movie distinguishable, and he isn't particularly good at it, either. As for James Wan, his most successful works as a solo director, that is the Conjuring series, are basically harmless blockbusters for the masses with a lot of jump scares. He isn't even remotely in the same league with people like Del Toro (who can be hit and miss, too, but whose Shape of Water is infinitely more interesting than a lot of modern-day horrors) or the most interesting revelations of the latest years - people like Robert Eggers, or David Robert Mitchell.
> 
> 
> Patty Jenkins had directed 2 movies 15 years before Wonder Woman. And even if Monster was rather successful she wasn't exactly a consolidated creator when she was approached for WW.
> 
> 
> A lot of people express interest in a lot of things, and a lot of people SAY that a lot of people are interested in a lot of things. Especially on the internet. If and when anything will come to fruition, it's a wholly different subject.


And Joker is elseworlds. Its a slap in the face of Ayer, Leto and DCEU as a whole.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

It's quite funny to see that this "MCU is formulaic, DCEU is director-driven" thing is still being perpetuated when both franchises have gone out of their way to disprove both of these claims. 

The DCEU is the current franchise having issues with directors. Multiple directors have left the Flash, Green Lantern, and Justice League Dark projects. David Ayer was given six weeks to write the Suicide Squad script and his movie was cut together by a trailer park studio. Zack Snyder has had two out of three DCEU films cut apart by Warner Brother's because they were apparently too long and were deemed "unwatchable". The same studio used Snyder's awful tragedy as an excuse to butt him out, contacted Joss Whedon to apparently fix Justice League, yet didn't even give him enough time to even do so. Warner Brothers executives rushed the release of Justice League just so they could get their bonuses in their salaries. Ever since BvS, and except for Wonder Woman, WB have shown no respect for film and the directors they have hired. Anyone who isn't blinded by fan loyalty can see that. I sometimes wonder how Deborah Snyder feels about her comment about the DCEU films being director driven, after how WB treated her husband.

Let's look at each movie though. 3 out of 5 DCEU have been directed by Zack Synder, who has his signatures which include attempts at dark, gritty, grounded, smart and philosophical themes and stories (I personally think he utterly fails at all of this, but that's not important right now), religious symbolism and allegory, slow motion, dark and grainy filters, and highly stylised shots that are meant to evoke the look of a painting. I haven't seen Justice League, but this must be present in 2 or 3 of his own films for the DCEU. Wonder Woman uses many of Zack Snyder's signatures, such as the slow motion, the dark and grainy filters and colours (a lot of blue lights have been used in the DCEU), the stylised shots, and the themes and overall tone of the film. Suicide Squad might be the most different film since in tone it's a little sillier, but it still has a relatively dark and grungy colour palette and aesthetic. Now, all five of the DCEU films have had pretty much the same type of conclusion: a final, super destructive final battle laden with heavy CGI use. Personally in concept I don't think there's anything wrong with this, though the DCEU's execution leaves a lot to be desired more often than not. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but the DCEU clearly has a formula of it's own and has hardly deviated from it, or from standard superhero movie tropes. Zack Snyder's direction is not that different from the likes of films such as Daredevil or Catwoman, except that he takes himself a little more seriously. So yes, the DCEU may be director driven, but if that is the case, it has been driven by one man only, which is Snyder. And aside from BvS, the DCEU hasn't told such widely unique stories. Man of Steel and Wonder Woman are standard superhero origin stories, while Justice League and Suicide Squad are team films done before (and better) by other franchises.

The MCU (which I will try to talk about as little as possible since this is a DCEU thread), especially recently, has continued to show more variety however because of two reasons: One, they've been getting a wider and more varied crop of directos; and two, they have more movies anyway. Just last year, Thor: Ragnarok was released, which is a highly 80s sci-fi adventure and highly satirical take on the superhero genre almost in vein of Deadpool. And then this year Black Panther has been released, which is more akin to the espionage thriller style of The Winter Soldier with the typical family and monarchy drama expected akin to Game of Thrones. You can't compare both films to Doctor Strange, which is a standard origin story with a philosophical edge (as generic as the film is in many instances), and you can't compare all three films to Spider-Man: Homecoming, which combines the tropes of a teen comedy/drama with superheroics. In addition, a film like Civil War has a vastly different plot, setting, tone, and conclusion than both Guardians of the Galaxy films, even if they are both about teams. Even Phase 2, which is considered to be the least entertaining phase of the MCU, has many different types of stories being told. Iron Man 3 isn't the same as Thor 2, or Ant-Man, or Age of Ultron. What many attribute as a formula for the MCU are three things: the prevalent and overarching use of humour, generally the same style of cinematography, and that the films are more or less lighthearted (no MCU film has ever gone the grim route). But as I have pointed out earlier, the DCEU does the exact same thing with the more serious tone and the dark colours. 

Logan is arguably the most radically different superhero film to have been released since Nolan's trilogy, and neither franchise have put out a movie similar to that in terms of tone and style, so both are doing the exact same thing, just with slight differences to the approach. You can't expect much diversity from a cinematic universe that relies of crossover, so why should the MCU be mocked for it, and the DCEU be praised for not even doing this as if they are? Logan is so different from any other X-Men film, but what did it even contribute to the larger narrative? That's right, nothing. It's such a standalone film that everything before it can largely be ignored. The same can't be said about Justice League's story (which I don't think Whedon altered enough to make significant changes) for instance. BvS got released the same year as Civil War, and Aquaman is getting released the same year as Black Panther, so I doubt the general audience will stop seeing the DCEU as another version of the MCU.

What all of this really boils down to, is preference. You like Zack Snyder's style, so you think of it as superior to whatever any other director does in superhero films (especially the MCU since he's practically the antithesis), and you've studied the inner workings of it, know it in and out so you can easily recognise it, as opposed to other directors. That's fine, but it's quite telling that Zack Snyder's fans have adopted the same pompous mentality that he has: That his films and his style is _superior_ to any other, and people just don't get it, which is just having a large ego when your work and its merit doesn't reflect how you talk about it. Saying the MCU films are the same just shows that you have a limited view on filmmaking styles. James Gunn has used the most vibrant colours in any MCU film, and is the only one who has used a wide variety of pop songs throughout his films. He also has a very silly brand of humour which can be an acquired taste or that he overdoes. Contrast with the Russo brothers, whose approach to superhero films are more serious and dramatic, use saturated colours, grounded aesthetics, and have a love for spy and espionage culture, as opposed to Gunn's 80s space culture. Ryan Coogler is known for his long takes and injecting social relevance into fun, uplifting, and emotional films, and all of that seems to be present in Black Panther. Contrast with Joss Whedon, Jon Favreu, Taika Waititi, and others and you can see no one else directs like he does in Marvel Studios. His symbolism is also very subtle (for instance, every image of Nakia, T'Challa and Okoye together represent the colours of the Pan African flag which are green, black and red). Marvel Studios' recent directors have all said they were allowed to make the film they wanted to for the most part, and it shows too. Only Patty Jenkins has been able to recount such an experience, and it shows in her film.

----------


## Myskin

> ...


Well, I cannot but agree with most of these points: I'll simply add my 2 cents for discussions' sake.
I think that the best example of how, generally speaking, neither the MCU nor the DCEU create purely creator-driven movies is the way they choose their directors. I think that, generally speaking, Marvel Studios and WB entrust their movies to three precise, recognizable typologies of directors: 1- Relatively young/unknown directors who made a couple of cult movies or some particularly well-received, interesting indie films or non-blockbuster movies but haven't gotten in the spotlight yet; 2- Relatively known veterans who made one or two breakout movies decades ago and didn't do anything particularly significative since then; 3- Reliable employees, that is directors who have always worked with Disney or WB and can be trusted with a "commissioned" movie. All of these categories are supposed to have one thing in common - they must not exceed their budget and they are not supposed to be 100% uncompromising. 

There are several reasons for this situation to exist and IMHO they are all pretty clear. Everybody has something to gain from these projects. Relatively unknown, young directors can become more well-known and then spend their real energies for more creative, "unfiltered" movies. The studios can get good PR from people like Ryan Coogler and Patty Jenkins (there was no chance in hell that the first WW movie could have been directed by a man) and they can count on people who have fond memories of films like The Rocketeer and Sinister. The "veterans" see these movies as a chance to work again and the "employees", well, they have always worked for that particular studios and they will do it this time, too. I think that this is the established model (Disney is adopting for the Star Wars series, too) and it will stay the same for some years more. IMHO 99% of the directors who worked on MCU and DCEU movies belong to the aforementioned categories, including people like Rick Famuyiwa and Jeff Nichols. It's not that the model ALWAYS works - do you remember Josh Trank? - but it works in most cases. 

Of course, this means that well-respected, established directors with a very personal vision - the so-called "authors" like Del Toro, Fincher, George Miller or even Edgar Wright will never find a way to work in this particular context. And there are very peculiar and probably unique cases like Nolan, who was a typology 1 director and quickly became one of the most acclaimed living directors with TDK. As for Snyder, he was probably a mix between typology 2 and typology 3, and I guess that his skill at keeping the budget within the limits is one of the main reasons for his unusual long tenure as a DCEU "mastermind".

----------


## Confuzzled

> And Joker is elseworlds. Its a slap in the face of Ayer, Leto and DCEU as a whole.


So Elseworlds comics are a slap in the face of DC Comics?

Also, I approve of WB humiliating that Leto after the nightmare he proved to be to his coworkers on the sets of Suicide Squad.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Confuzzled

> Guys, if you want to debate objective facts, great, but make sure to respective everybody's subjective opinions.


James Wan and Patty Jenkins are "not well-respected creators" is an objectively wrong insinuation tbf to me  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> ....


Agreed with all of this. Marvel has a rough template  (humor, lighthearted, similar cinematography), but they give their directors a lot of leeway aside from that. I feel like they can work well with guys like Coogler because he knows going in what the rules are beyond that pretty much has free reign, and has seen other directors put their own stamp on that template. 

Its honestly not unlike well edited comics. Establish the rules of what you want your property to be. Try to keep those rules to a minimum. Then let creatives go nuts within those boundaries. 

DC really needs to get a handle on that first part if they want any success beyond WW. My hope is they've at least managed to do this for Aquaman and WW.

----------


## Confuzzled

The increase of MCU director creative freedom is directly proportional to the decrease of Ike Perlmutter and his "Creative Committee"'s influence over the films.

No way would that Trump funding dude have approved of that _Black Panther_ script if he were still in charge of Marvel Studios lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

WB claimed that they were going to let the creatives create. They said as much in an official announcement. Then they went ahead and made liars of themselves every single time save for Wonder Woman. 

That's really the main reason to be mad at WB. Even if Marvel WAS forcing their directors and script writers to conform to a certain formula, they never made any claim at being some kind of artistic colony, and there's no denying that the "formula" is working for them anyway. WB, on the other hand, claimed they were going to give creative freedom to their people and then they reneged on it, to their own detriment.

----------


## EyesWideKubrick

WB will let Sandberg, Reeves, Jenkins, Wan, O'Connor, and Evans, create. Simple.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> WB will let Sandberg, Reeves, Jenkins, Wan, O'Connor, and Evans, create. Simple.


One can only hope. And if they do, then the DCEU will be salvageable and this current era can be chalked up to an unfortunately long period of growing pains.

That's what we need to hope for right now.

----------


## Carabas

> WB will let Sandberg, Reeves, Jenkins, Wan, O'Connor, and Evans, create. Simple.


Their history suggests otherwise, but we can hope.

----------


## AquaLantern

> WB claimed that they were going to let the creatives create. They said as much in an official announcement. Then they went ahead and made liars of themselves every single time save for Wonder Woman. 
> 
> *That's really the main reason to be mad at WB.* Even if Marvel WAS forcing their directors and script writers to conform to a certain formula, they never made any claim at being some kind of artistic colony, and there's no denying that the "formula" is working for them anyway. WB, on the other hand, claimed they were going to give creative freedom to their people and then they reneged on it, to their own detriment.


That's the one thing I can say that I "hate" about the films. I never saw a DCEU film that I didn't like but it's clear to me that WB kept screwing with the directors work in response to the "too dark, it's not like Marvel" criticisms.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> One can only hope. And if they do, then the DCEU will be salvageable and this current era can be chalked up to an unfortunately long period of growing pains.
> 
> That's what we need to hope for right now.


Yup, I'm cautiously optimistic, if only because WB is in its weakest position when it comes to negotiating. Someone like Wan could conceivably have pulled a "Let me do what I want or no deal" power move in a way that probably wasn't possible prior to BvS fallout.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> James Wan and Patty Jenkins are "not well-respected creators" is an objectively wrong insinuation tbf to me


Yeah, whether you like them or not (and I like them myself), it's hard to objectively state they're not well-respected at the moment.

----------


## Gaastra

Honest trailers strikes again! 

Edit-(oops spoilers. I deleted it and posted it in the movie board topic.)

----------


## BlackClaw

So when can we expect to see a trailer for Aquaman?

----------


## Confuzzled

> So when can we expect to see a trailer for Aquaman?


My guess is April, in time to play with Dwayne Johnson's Rampage WB movie in theatres.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> My guess is April, in time to play with Dwayne Johnson's Rampage WB movie in theatres.


It may be sooner. If there really is a test screening today, then surely they must have enough footage to put together a trailer.

----------


## Jokerz79

Chris McKay is being eyed to Direct Dungeons and Dragons I think it could see theaters before Nightwing at this point.

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/ni...nt-1202706071/

----------


## Nite-Wing

Nightwing isn't happening anytime soon because Ben is about to leave the Batman role 
So obviously all the movies that would require a Batman cameo have frozen

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Flashpoint should honestly be COIE done right and reboot everything except WW & Aquaman. I like Cavill so I will give him leeway

----------


## BlackClaw

> Flashpoint should honestly be COIE done right and reboot everything except WW & Aquaman. I like Cavill so I will give him leeway


Same. His performance in Justice League showed me he actually can play Superman quite well.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Flashpoint should honestly be COIE done right and reboot everything except WW & Aquaman. I like Cavill so I will give him leeway


Putting myself in the shoes of someone who is tuned out on the DCEU and didn't see Justice League because of the poor reviews, what is the selling point of Flashpoint? 

Even as someone who is actually familiar with the story, it just seems like a terrible idea. The DCEU doesn't need a universe altering event (which will probably also have a huge budget), it just needs a good flash movie.

----------


## Frontier

> Putting myself in the shoes of someone who is tuned out on the DCEU and didn't see Justice League because of the poor reviews, what is the selling point of Flashpoint? 
> 
> Even as someone who is actually familiar with the story, it just seems like a terrible idea. The DCEU doesn't need a universe altering event (which will probably also have a huge budget), it just needs a good flash movie.


I think Flashpoint can only really work when we have more of a connection and basis for The Flash and his world then we probably will have going into the Flashpoint movie.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...n-role-1086317

Chantal Nong has been promoted to a key role in DC Films. Also of note:



> While DC films currently are in a quiet period  Warners is only releasing Aquaman in 2018 and Shazam! is the only movie in production  that is expected to soon change. Wonder Woman 2 is heading into the casting stage and will be the next pic to shoot. Insiders say the next wave will likely include the Flash film and Batgirl, among others.


I'm kind of hoping that it being referred to as a Flash film here means that WB is moving back on the idea of Flashpoint, though that's probably just wishful thinking from the wording.  

(on a side note the Flashpoint directors' latest film that releases this weekend seems to actually be getting good reviews atm, maybe that's why WB decided to take a chance on them with Flash/Flashpoint?)

----------


## Robotman

I agree that Flashpoint doesnt make sense thematically but I think WB is pushing for a reality altering storyline as a way to show that the DCEU has changed and the Snyder era is officially over. Its also a way to introduce the multiverse as an answer to fans who complain about out of continuity projects like the Joker movie. Plus they can chalk up the new younger Batman as a result of Flash altering reality.

But after the disaster that was Justice League I dont think a massive story like this which will require a huge budget is a good idea. Plus its a very dark story and they keep saying they are done with the doom and gloom.

----------


## BlackClaw

> But after the disaster that was Justice League I don’t think a massive story like this which will require a huge budget is a good idea. Plus it’s a very dark story and they keep saying they are done with the doom and gloom.


How much are you willing to bet that if they do go ahead with the Flashpoint movie they'll be like "Ok *THIS* is gonna be the last dark and gritty movie and then we'll be doing lighthearted ones from here on out!" 

I'm just hoping they keep Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> How much are you willing to bet that if they do go ahead with the Flashpoint movie they'll be like "Ok *THIS* is gonna be the last dark and gritty movie and then we'll be doing lighthearted ones from here on out!"


I think Warner Bros. would be better off if they said "Ok this * ISN'T* gonna be a dark and gritty movie and we'll be doing lighthearted ones from here on out!" 




> I'm just hoping they keep Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.


Me too.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> I'm just hoping they keep Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.


I think that's one thing that we can safely rely on. Surely they wouldn't cock that up.

(He says optimistically  :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## titanfan

> While DC films currently are in a quiet period  Warners is only releasing Aquaman in 2018 and Shazam! is the only movie in production  that is expected to soon change. Wonder Woman 2 is heading into the casting stage and will be the next pic to shoot. Insiders say the next wave will likely include the Flash film and Batgirl, among others.


I assume they forgot about Suicide Squad 2, which is supposed to have started filming any time now...

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I assume they forgot about Suicide Squad 2, which is supposed to have started filming any time now...


Isn't Suicide Squad 2 supposed to start filming in the fall of this year?

----------


## titanfan

> Isn't Suicide Squad 2 supposed to start filming in the fall of this year?


I thought I read March, but maybe it was moved back and I didn't realize it.  The cast on instagram is starting to share workout photos, etc. of them getting back into shape.

----------


## BlackClaw

> I think that's one thing that we can safely rely on. Surely they wouldn't cock that up.
> 
> (He says optimistically )


Man I'm just hoping Warner Bros. isn't dumb enough to mess up the only hero in this universe that has universally been well received.

----------


## Pinsir

An article from the  the Washington Post lamenting the end of Snyder's tenure; https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.849922398ceb




> More than a house style, however, Snyder oversaw a house ethos. And its here that the recent spate of DC films  as wildly uneven as they were, as messy as they could be purely in terms of storytelling  has always been more consistent, and more interesting, than their counterparts at Marvel. Consider Tony Stark (Robert Downey Jr.), the key to the MCUs success. He is wildly erratic as a character, swinging from libertarian privatizer of peacekeeping to statist global governance proponent to mad genius tinkering with godhood to father figure aiding a kid in need, depending on what the movie he happens to be in needs him to do to keep the action moving. Hes a plot device, not a person.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> An article from the  the Washington Post lamenting the end of Snyder's tenure; https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.849922398ceb


From the same guy that defended Three Billboards for the most absurd reasons.

Makes sense he would think so much of Snyder.

----------


## BlackClaw

> From the same guy that defended Three Billboards for the most absurd reasons.
> 
> Makes sense he would think so much of Snyder.


And he also brought up Armond White unironically in order to defend Snyder. Lmao.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I thought I read March, but maybe it was moved back and I didn't realize it.  The cast on instagram is starting to share workout photos, etc. of them getting back into shape.


I had heard Suicide Squad 2 was to start filming in the Fall of 2018.

----------


## Pinsir

> And he also brought up Armond White unironically in order to defend Snyder. Lmao.


Armond White is the successor to Roger Ebert though, among a sea of hacks he is the only film reviewer to speak truth to power.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think Flashpoint can only really work when we have more of a connection and basis for The Flash and his world then we probably will have going into the Flashpoint movie.


Exactly, and it works doubly so when you have a connection and basis for the entire DCU. Its hard to do alternate universe takes when audiences don't really know what the regular universe is. 




> I agree that Flashpoint doesn’t make sense thematically but I think WB is pushing for a reality altering storyline as a way to show that the DCEU has changed and the Snyder era is officially over. It’s also a way to introduce the multiverse as an answer to fans who complain about out of continuity projects like the Joker movie. Plus they can chalk up the new younger Batman as a result of Flash altering reality.
> 
> But after the disaster that was Justice League I don’t think a massive story like this which will require a huge budget is a good idea. Plus it’s a very dark story and they keep saying they are done with the doom and gloom.


I think the only people who really care about canon are the people that are already likely to go see DC movies, which is a minority. Recasting Batman is an issue, but unless they went super young I think they could just roll with it. Ruffalo and Norton look nothing alike, and nobody cared because Avengers was awesome. 

Show that the DCEU has changed and the Synder era is over by making good movies that don't fall under their own weight, end of story.


On an unrelated note, that characterization of Stark by the snyder supporter is laughable. Tony can be all of those things because he's an interesting character who we have gotten to know different sides of over the course of several movies. Saying him as a father figure comes out of nowhere ignores his blatant daddy issues that were established in like half of his appearances.

----------


## Frontier

> On an unrelated note, that characterization of Stark by the snyder supporter is laughable. Tony can be all of those things because he's an interesting character who we have gotten to know different sides of over the course of several movies. Saying him as a father figure comes out of nowhere ignores his blatant daddy issues that were established in like half of his appearances.


There is such a thing as character development, after all  :Smile: .

I mean, DCEU Batman acts very different from BvS to _Justice League_.

----------


## Agent Z

> Agreed on all fronts. I think they also erred considerably in equating Snyder's and Nolan's visions, and not realizing they weren't at all the same. MoS was kind of close, so I can understand them not immediately pivoting after that, but after BvS he should have been immediately canned while JL was delayed.


Why? BvS wasn't his fault. The issues with WB are higher than him.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I repeat, a mish-mash reboot won't work in a cinematic universe. It will only confuse audiences. People-ordinary people- will show up going "wait where is Ben Affleck, Gal is still there and I saw her in the last film they were together, and I thought Lex was a different guy, and why does Joker look different" on and on. Anyone who didn't see the previous films and goes to see Flashpoint will be confused as to why they should care, and anyone who sees movies after Flashpoint and miss it will be utterly confused. And people who liked Batfleck will shit on the movie and the negative press shitstorm will continue. It's not viable.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

Some good news for the Flash movie.

Game Night is getting positive reviews.

----------


## Frontier

> Some good news for the Flash movie.
> 
> Game Night is getting positive reviews.


That's good  :Smile: .

I know they also wrote _Homecoming_ but that seemed to have so many other attached writers to it (including contribution from Watts and probably Marvel Studios) that it's hard to gauge how much they got to contribute. 

All that being said I didn't really care for how they seem to be approaching Flash from interviews, and they still might be saddled with having to adapt Flashpoint, but I guess we'll just have to see how things shape up.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

I'm positive Flashpoint is happening because of Johns.

If he hadn't had any input, we wouldn't be getting a Flashpoint movie as the first Flash movie.

----------


## Johnny

But why would they hire comedy writers/directors for Flashpoint? That's not a funny story. lol

----------


## Frontier

> I'm positive Flashpoint is happening because of Johns.
> 
> If he hadn't had any input, we wouldn't be getting a Flashpoint movie as the first Flash movie.


I think there are a variety of reasons they're going for Flashpoint, Johns' influence likely being one of them. 

Though, honestly, if they were going for Johns' Flash origin they were probably going to end up adapting Flashpoint one way or another.

----------


## Confuzzled

I'm surprised nobody has posted yet. Apparently they screened a rough cut of _Aquaman_ for test audiences and... so far so good. Some tweets from IGN's Jeremy Conrad:




> _People are DMing me asking me to not spoil big Aquaman story bits, and I wont on Twitter. The movie isnt out until December.
> 
> But from the sound of things, if you loved Geoff Johns run on the comic during the New 52 youre going to want to get your ticket immediately._





> *Hate to break this to the clickbait people hoping WB reboots the DCEU, but...
> 
> Aquaman is set after Justice League. Steppenwolfs defeat is specifically mentioned in the movie.*





> *No water bubbles in this movie. They just speak normally underwater.*





> I gotta say after all the drama and toxicity surrounding Justice League a couple of months ago I was feeling down about all things DC (and I love DC so much).
> *
> What Im hearing about Aquaman is a complete 180 for me and Im really excited now.*


Oh, and he teases *spoilers:*
the Kraken
*end of spoilers*.

----------


## Robotman

> I'm surprised nobody has posted yet. Apparently they screened a rough cut of _Aquaman_ for test audiences and... so far so good. Some tweets from IGN's Jeremy Conrad


I’m hoping the movie is influenced by Johns’ run. I think Wan could do some cool things with The Trench what with his history in the horror genre.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I'm surprised nobody has posted yet. Apparently they screened a rough cut of _Aquaman_ for test audiences and... so far so good. Some tweets from IGN's Jeremy Conrad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool, good news.

----------


## The True Detective

> I'm surprised nobody has posted yet. Apparently they screened a rough cut of _Aquaman_ for test audiences and... so far so good. Some tweets from IGN's Jeremy Conrad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING BVS AND JL HAD GOOD EARLY REACTIONS TOO!"

...but seriously that's cool to hear even if it is really early, hope it turns out good I have faith in Wan.

----------


## Confuzzled

From those comments about it being heavily based on the New 52 Johns run, would I be right in guessing it is basically a _Throne of Atlantis_ adaptation minus the other Leaguers? That sounds good.

Would also confirm suspicions that _Flashpoint_ would minimize the involvement of the other Leaguers as well. Still don't think it needed to be the plot for the very first Flash movie but this thought makes me feel better about it.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

Game Night has gotten some good early reviews so that is a good thing

----------


## Robotman

> From those comments about it being heavily based on the New 52 Johns run, would I be right in guessing it is basically a _Throne of Atlantis_ adaptation minus the other Leaguers? That sounds good.
> 
> Would also confirm suspicions that _Flashpoint_ would minimize the involvement of the other Leaguers as well. Still don't think it needed to be the plot for the very first Flash movie but this thought makes me feel better about it.


The Throne of Atlantis would make sense since they cast a bigger name actor, Willem Defoe, to play Vulco. The character does have an important role in the storyline.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> The Throne of Atlantis would make sense since they cast a bigger name actor, Willem Defoe, to play Vulco. The character does have an important role in the storyline.


Might turn out to be a real coup if he wins the supporting role Oscar for The Florida Project.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Hum, the cut of Aquaman showed at the screening was roughly 2 hour and half. Right now, WB is probably like...



 :Big Grin:

----------


## BlackClaw

> I'm surprised nobody has posted yet. Apparently they screened a rough cut of _Aquaman_ for test audiences and... so far so good. Some tweets from IGN's Jeremy Conrad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well it’s good hear they got rid of those stupid air bubbles. Here’s to hoping Aquaman can be as good as Wonder Woman if not better.

----------


## ross61

> Hum, the cut of Aquaman showed at the screening was roughly 2 hour and half. Right now, WB is probably like...


WB only cuts up Zack Snyder movies ☺️

----------


## ross61

> But why would they hire comedy writers/directors for Flashpoint? That's not a funny story. lol


Because no Comic book movie is 1-1 with the story it’s adapting.

----------


## Soubhagya

> But why would they hire comedy writers/directors for Flashpoint? That's not a funny story. lol


Maybe they are trying to be comedic. Ezra Miller was considered as one of the highlights. And his role was fairly comedic.

----------


## Johnny

> Because no Comic book movie is 1-1 with the story it’s adapting.


It's not about being 1-1, it's about the concept. Post-apocalyptic alternate future doesn't sound that funny, regardless if the protagonist is a lighthearted guy. However, I will point out The Russo brothers were basically comedy directors too before Winter Soldier and I'd say that turned out alright.

----------


## Carabas

> But why would they hire comedy writers/directors for Flashpoint? That's not a funny story. lol


How do you know it isn't a very funny story?
What about the DCEU gives you the impression that WB cares about comic books?

----------


## Johnny

> How do you know it isn't a very funny story?
> What about the DCEU gives you the impression that WB cares about comic books?


Aquaman and Shazam seem to be based on the New 52 comics, hence it's interesting to call a movie _Flashpoint_ and make it "funny".

----------


## Frontier

> From those comments about it being heavily based on the New 52 Johns run, would I be right in guessing it is basically a _Throne of Atlantis_ adaptation minus the other Leaguers? That sounds good.
> 
> Would also confirm suspicions that _Flashpoint_ would minimize the involvement of the other Leaguers as well. Still don't think it needed to be the plot for the very first Flash movie but this thought makes me feel better about it.


The main impetus of the story seems to be Aquaman having to stop Orm's conflict with the surface world, so it will probably be somewhat similar to _Thrones of Altantis_ or at least the animated adaption of the storyline. 

As far as the League in Flashpoint, we've gotten teases to Thomas Haden Church's Batman being in it and Gal Gadot as well, though it might not be the last film Cavill is contracted for. 

Ray Fisher and the actor who played Silas is also contracted for at least on more movie, I believe.  



> Because no Comic book movie is 1-1 with the story it’s adapting.


Even the TV version of Flashpoint wasn't as dark as the comic, at least up until Barry helped his Archenemy kill his mother to set the timeline back and then also inadvertently screwed everything up...

Okay, maybe it was as dark as the comic storyline  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Galvanite

> But why would they hire comedy writers/directors for Flashpoint? That's not a funny story. lol


The Russo Bros started out as small time directors who made their mark directing episodes of Community. Tom Hanks made his mark as a comedian who made his name in Bossom Buddies and Splash. Robin Williams won an Oscar in a dramatic role. Those proficient in comedy have a knack for crossing into dramatic fair more easily then those who started in drama. the greatest comedians tend to have had a hard and/or painful life. I think it's the whole comedy is pain thing.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> As far as the League in Flashpoint, we've gotten teases to* Thomas Haden Church's Batman* being in it and Gal Gadot as well, though it might not be the last film Cavill is contracted for.



What?  I didn't know Thomas Hayden Church was cast as Thomas Wayne Batman? Awesome!

I think you mean Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"It ambitious: tons of action, adventure & suspense. A grand epic full of cool characters & comic book moments amped x1000 by James Wan. Momoa pulls off Arthur Curry the man and the hero he becomes. Its all about the ties that bind. Mera, Black Manta & Orm ALL amaze!" #Aquaman_

https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...34558564675584

 :Cool:

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

I'll wait for the reactions closer to the film's final release from actual critics when the film is actually completed(finished VFX, score, sound ect) before I can get super-optimistic about this project. Wan  is a great director so that's promising but I've been very skeptical of  Warners for a while after the Justice League debacle  so I'll remain  only be cautiously optimistic for now.

----------


## ross61

> It's not about being 1-1, it's about the concept. Post-apocalyptic alternate future doesn't sound that funny, regardless if the protagonist is a lighthearted guy. However, I will point out The Russo brothers were basically comedy directors too before Winter Soldier and I'd say that turned out alright.


The same could be said about Thor Ragnarock's concept and yet look at it.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> I'll wait for the reactions closer to film's final release from actual critics when the film is actually completed(finished VFX, score, sound ect) before I can get super-optimistic about this project. Wan  is a great director so that's promising but I've been very skeptical of the Warners for awhile after Justice League so I'll only be cautiously optimistic for now.


This post, word for word, could have been typed by myself. That's exactly how I feel.

I didn't even hate Justice League, just couldn't believe that WB would pull a hatchet job on a major project like that AGAIN. I'll reserve judgement until I've seen the film for myself.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> WB only cuts up Zack Snyder movies ☺️


And let trailer people edit David Ayer's movie.  But let's all blame David Ayer for everything wrong with Suicide Squad.

----------


## Frontier

> What?  I didn't know Thomas Hayden Church was cast as Thomas Wayne Batman? Awesome!
> 
> I think you mean Jeffrey Dean Morgan.


This is what I get for posting in a rush  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> _"It ambitious: tons of action, adventure & suspense. A grand epic full of cool characters & comic book moments amped x1000 by James Wan. Momoa pulls off Arthur Curry the man and the hero he becomes. Its all about the ties that bind. Mera, Black Manta & Orm ALL amaze!" #Aquaman_
> 
> https://twitter.com/AquamanShrine/st...34558564675584


Nice. Hopefully WB can keep this consistent up until the film's release  :Smile: .

----------


## nightw1ng

Hasn't literally every comic book film from the past several years (whether it be Marvel, DC, or Fox) had positive word of mouth from these advance screenings?  There's no correlation to quality and are basically meaningless.

----------


## Robotman

> Hasn't literally every comic book film from the past several years (whether it be Marvel, DC, or Fox) had positive word of mouth from these advance screenings?  There's no correlation to quality and are basically meaningless.


Actually Justice League was described as “unwatchable” after the initial screenings for execs and test audiences. And BvS had negativity surrounding it right from the start.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-movie-1087384

Joss has exited Batgirl.



> Whedon, the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer among other pop culture touchstones, is exiting the Warner Bros. feature project which he was writing and slated to direct.
> 
> Batgirl is such an exciting project, and Warners/DC such collaborative and supportive partners, that it took me months to realize I really didnt have a story, Whedon told The Hollywood Reporter in a statement. Referring to DC president Geoff Johns and Warners Picture Group president Toby Emmerich, Whedon added, Im grateful to Geoff and Toby and everyone who was so welcoming when I arrived, and so understanding when I uh, is there a sexier word for failed?
> 
> Whedon came on to Batgirl almost a year ago, in March 2017, with the hopes of bringing to the big-screen a companion to the female empowerment icon, Wonder Woman, this one tied to the most popular character in comics, Batman. Batgirl is Barbara Gordon, the daughter of Gotham City police commissioner James Gordon.
> 
> But sources say that Whedon, after a year of trying, could not crack the code of what a Batgirl movie should be. Wonder Woman, in the meanwhile, became a cultural phenomenon as well as one of the biggest hits and most acclaimed movies of 2017.
> 
> Industry sources add that even as Whedon faced story issues, in todays cultural entertainment environment, a male filmmaker may have faced greater public scrutiny if he were to have tackled a movie with such feminist importance such as Batgirl or Wonder Woman, much like a white filmmaker would have seen backlash if they were to take on the Black Panther movie.

----------


## nightw1ng

> Actually Justice League was described as unwatchable after the initial screenings for execs and test audiences. And BvS had negativity surrounding it right from the start.


I recall things differently, and I only heard of the "unwatchable" quotes for Justice League surfacing recently. I remember Green Lantern, Fantastic Four, and Suicide Squad getting good word of mouth from advance screenings. Some of them were probably from before the studios drastically edited the films, so we'll see if the WB learned their lesson about chopping up films.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-movie-1087384
> 
> Joss has exited Batgirl.


YES! 

The best hope for batgirl is to turn out women the same way WW did. Joss's brand of female focused story telling will not do that, especially when the social media machine starts churning out the statements from his ex wife shortly before the debut.

----------


## Frontier

> YES! 
> 
> The best hope for batgirl is to turn out women the same way WW did. Joss's brand of female focused story telling will not do that, especially when the social media machine starts churning out the statements from his ex wife shortly before the debut.


And especially with the controversy over the _Justice League_ re-shoots.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Batgirl now has  little chance of ever getting off the ground. They were only doing the film in the first place because Whedon picked it as the film he'd like to do out of all the options they had presented to him.  This is likely the final nail in the coffin as far as that film ever seeing the light of day.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> And especially with the controversy over the _Justice League_ re-shoots.


Well and let's  not  forget this.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> YES! 
> 
> The best hope for batgirl is to turn out women the same way WW did. Joss's brand of female focused story telling will not do that, especially when the social media machine starts churning out the statements from his ex wife shortly before the debut.


Like Amadeus said, the Batgirl movie is dead without Whedon. So no one is going to turn out for the non-existent Batgirl movie.

----------


## Frontier

> Well and let's  don't forget this.


There are a variety of reasons why I'm not surprised Whedon is dropping out of this.

----------


## Galvanite

> I recall things differently, and I only heard of the "unwatchable" quotes for Justice League surfacing recently. I remember Green Lantern, Fantastic Four, and Suicide Squad getting good word of mouth from advance screenings. Some of them were probably from before the studios drastically edited the films, so we'll see if the WB learned their lesson about chopping up films.


Yep. I remember reading reports of standing ovations for BvS by the execs at the screening. Unless legitimate critics and norms are reporting, it's all just a sock hop.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-movie-1087384
> 
> Joss has exited Batgirl.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> Like Amadeus said, the Batgirl movie is dead without Whedon. So no one is going to turn out for the non-existent Batgirl movie.


Pre-Wonder Woman, that would have been the case but after the success of Wonder Woman, it's likely that WB will not abandon the project.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Like Amadeus said, the Batgirl movie is dead without Whedon. So no one is going to turn out for the non-existent Batgirl movie.


That's on WB then. I'd rather have no movie than a bad one, and I had no faith in Whedon to make a good Batgirl movie.




> Pre-Wonder Woman, that would have been the case but after the success of Wonder Woman, it's likely that WB will not abandon the project.


Also, what you said.

----------


## Serpico Jones

The Batgirl movie was always BS. It was just a cover story to hide the fact that Whedon was actually brought in to reshoot most of Justice League.

----------


## Robotman

> Batgirl now has  little chance of ever getting off the ground. They were only doing the film in the first place because Whedon picked it as the film he'd like to do out of all the options they had presented to him.  This is likely the final nail in the coffin as far as that film ever seeing the light of day.


Yeah that’s my feelings on the matter as well. When I heard the news I wasn’t celebrating the departure of Whedon. I was mourning the loss of the Batgirl movie. This film will be removed from the DCEU slate and their projected movie calendar will change once again.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

I was going to suggest Anna Biller as someone that should take over Batgirl, and looking at her twitter there are already others recommending her.

But it might too smart a choice for WB to make.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...71444456685568

Well, this is something.

This movie probably won't happen but one could hope.

----------


## Frontier

I think if DC wants to keep going with _Batgirl_ then hiring a female director is the best move forward post-Whedon.

----------


## Frontier

TheHashtagShow apparently has some information about Flashpoint.

- Dr. Light will be the main villain instead of Reverse-Flash. Eobard Thawne will apparently be in it in an "interesting" role. 

- Captain Cold and Heat Wave will also be in it. Killer Frost will apparently also have a major role in the movie.

- Chyre and Morillo from Johns' _Flash_ run will be helping Barry investigate the murder of Johnny Chambers. 

Though they also note that this information was prior to Daley and Goldstein joining the film.

----------


## Johnny

Yeah I don't know about these guys. They have a rather mixed track record. Sometimes they have more accurate scoops, other times they are so far off the mark. Also having Caitlin in the movie just because she's been part of the TV show couldn't be anymore predictable, not that I would mind seeing her.

----------


## Badou

> TheHashtagShow apparently has some information about Flashpoint.
> 
> - Dr. Light will be the main villain instead of Reverse-Flash. Eobard Thawne will apparently be in it in an "interesting" role. 
> 
> - Captain Cold and Heat Wave will also be in it. Killer Frost will apparently also have a major role in the movie.
> 
> - Chyre and Morillo from Johns' _Flash_ run will be helping Barry investigate the murder of Johnny Chambers. 
> 
> Though they also note that this information was prior to Daley and Goldstein joining the film.


This sounds nothing like Flashpoint, but I guess they just want to use the title since it is a title people know I suppose.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Keep in mind that Daley and Goldstein still are in the talks phase, with no deal having been finalized yet.

----------


## Gaastra

Looks like there may never have been a batgirl movie and it might have been smoke to cover his justice league gig.

----------


## Gaastra



----------


## Star_Jammer

How are people rationalizing that?  It's not like Joss's involvement with JL was ever a secret.

----------


## Pinsir

I was fine with a Nightwing or Batgirl film, not both. Heck, just make a Batgirl and Nightwing film.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

How about a Batgirl film directed by Mary Harron, based on the Gail Simone run, if we're still talking about possible female directors? She directed like an episode of Constantine, so I guess she's already got DC experience.  :Cool:

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah I don't know about these guys. They have a rather mixed track record. Sometimes they have more accurate scoops, other times they are so far off the mark. Also having Caitlin in the movie just because she's been part of the TV show couldn't be anymore predictable, not that I would mind seeing her.


I remember back when the movie was first announced there was some call sheets for the cast and Thawne's sounded almost exactly like Harrison Wells.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think if DC wants to keep going with _Batgirl_ then hiring a female director is the best move forward post-Whedon.


Isn't that a bit sexist?  Should only male directors direct male characters?  Only white directors direct white characters?

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> Isn't that a bit sexist?  Should only male directors direct male characters?  Only white directors direct white characters?


No, it isn't sexist and your neither your premise or comparisons hold.

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever



----------


## Osiris-Rex

It's not like there isn't dozens of Batgirl stories in the comic books that couldn't be adapted to a movie. They have written 56 episodes of the Supergirl TV show, some of them
based on stories from the Superman and Supergirl comic books, and Whedon couldn't come up with a single Batgirl story based on a Batman or Batgirl comic book story?

----------


## Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever

> It's not like there isn't dozens of Batgirl stories in the comic books that couldn't be adapted to a movie.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

I'm glad Whedon's off _Batgirl_. Despite how much I liked _Justice League_, I'm pretty much over him.

I also hope _Batgirl_ never gets made: not because she's a female character, but because it'd be a huge mistake to over saturate their movie universe with Batman knockoffs. That's why I don't want _Nightwing_ to get made, either, but it's likely far too late to bail on that one.

I just want a freaking good Hal Jordan Green Lantern movie, and I think that's becoming less and less likely with each new announcement.

Love the positive news about _Aquaman_, though! Mamoa owned it in JL.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> 



I'm kind of ambivalent on Gay, but this is a great move just in terms of how WB engages with creatives. Sure, it might not amount to anything, but if any kind of legit writer is interested in your property this should be the response.

----------


## stephens2177

> No, it isn't sexist and your neither your premise or comparisons hold.



Actually your wrong,but I'm sure you will never see that

----------


## Frontier

> 


I did not care for Gay's last major comic work, but I guess it's nice to see DC is still interested in pushing forward with Batgirl after Whedon's exit and are open to different creative types (which they advertised as part of their DCEU approach). 



> 


About the only thing I'd want to see here is Dinah and maybe Steph showing up in the movie and maybe Frankie as a supporting cast member. 

But I really don't think we need to see hipster Millenial Batgirl become the official version. 

Although it sounds like Whedon was leaning towards an adaption of Batgirl's origin story, so it could have ended up being a _Batgirl Year One_ adaption.

----------


## Jokerz79

I know I might be alone in this but I'd love to see Barbara as Oracle and Cass as her protégé and Batgirl.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I know I might be alone in this but I'd love to see Barbara as Oracle and Cass as her protégé and Batgirl.


I would prefer that anyone involved in a Batgirl movie would just pretend "The Killing Joke" and its aftermath never existed. Even Alan Moore never intended it to be canon.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I would prefer that anyone involved in a Batgirl movie would just pretend "The Killing Joke" and its aftermath never existed.


Ditto. I have no problem with Babs as Oracle, but it's the how that I have found irksome for decades.

----------


## Rac7d*

> 


that whole arc 
felt like seaon 1 of a cartoon, which they honestly shoudl just do
Batgirl of burnside

----------


## Frontier

> that whole arc 
> felt like seaon 1 of a cartoon, which they honestly shoudl just do
> Batgirl of burnside


I think a Batgirl cartoon would probably take some influence from Burnside but I'd hope for something more like this:

----------


## Elmo

> I'm glad Whedon's off _Batgirl_. Despite how much I liked _Justice League_, I'm pretty much over him.
> 
> I also hope _Batgirl_ never gets made: not because she's a female character, but because it'd be a huge mistake to over saturate their movie universe with Batman knockoffs. That's why I don't want _Nightwing_ to get made, either, but it's likely far too late to bail on that one.
> 
> *I just want a freaking good Hal Jordan Green Lantern movie, and I think that's becoming less and less likely with each new announcement.*
> 
> Love the positive news about _Aquaman_, though! Mamoa owned it in JL.


Why? GLC is still coming and Hal is a main character. What recent announcements have changed this?

----------


## gbshabo

> Why? GLC is still coming and Hal is a main character. What recent announcements have changed this?


Maybe it's the whole lethal weapon / buddy cop movie angle thing they are pushing that is disappointing

----------


## Elmo

> Maybe it's the whole lethal weapon / buddy cop movie angle thing they are pushing that is disappointing


You can't please everyone. Especially when there are 7 Green Lanterns from Earth and thousands upon thousands of GLs in total, each with their own culture, planet, and backstory. You could make 100 consecutive Green Lantern movies and still not be able to cover the entire mythology, which actually works in this movie's favor.

Hell, the whole reason they changed it from Green Lantern to Green Lantern Corps was to be able to introduce the GL mythos instead of focusing on one specific character. If the film is successful it could launch an expansive franchise with loads of sequels and spin-offs featuring a variety of characters. 

We all want to see a good Hal movie but the best way to introduce audiences to the Green Lantern mythos is to introduce the entire Corps and all of the characters together.

----------


## El_Gato

> I know I might be alone in this but I'd love to see Barbara as Oracle and Cass as her protégé and Batgirl.


Same here. Also makes more sense since Asia is a huge movie market and Cassandra is DC's most successful non White character. Cast a Chinese actress as Cass and watch the dollars roll in. 

Plus I find that set up far more appealing than a solo Batgirl film, where she mooches off a Batman villain.




> Maybe it's the whole lethal weapon / buddy cop movie angle thing they are pushing that is disappointing


From a business standpoint it makes sense. Hal and John are the most iconic GL's, and adding John helps distance the film from the atrocious 2011 film. I only hope we get Jessica eventually

----------


## Frontier

> Same here. Also makes more sense since Asia is a huge movie market and Cassandra is DC's most successful non White character. Cast a Chinese actress as Cass and watch the dollars roll in. 
> 
> Plus I find that set up far more appealing than a solo Batgirl film, where she mooches off a Batman villain.


Well, DC would probably want to promote their Bat-villains too since they probably can't fit all of them into a single solo movie  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Although Shiva is technically a Batman villain.

----------


## Elmo

> Same here. Also makes more sense since Asia is a huge movie market and Cassandra is DC's most successful non White character. Cast a Chinese actress as Cass and watch the dollars roll in.


Can we campaign for this? I really think WB would be missing a huge chance of success here.

She is arguably one of the best Bat-characters and my personal favorite female superheroine. She has an intricate and complex backstory/origin and unlike Barbara Gordon, she doesn't become Batgirl out of inspiration and worship of a male character.

I love Babs, and I love Steph. But Cass is the one the movie should be about, no question.

----------


## Frontier

I'd be happy with whichever Batgirl they gave a movie to, to be honest  :Smile: .

Although I think Steph needs to be introduced as Spoiler first.

----------


## ross61

Batgirl movie is gonna be Barbara. It doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of being anyone else.

----------


## Elmo

> Batgirl movie is gonna be Barbara. It doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of being anyone else.


How come?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## El_Gato

> Batgirl movie is gonna be Barbara. It doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of being anyone else.


Which is a sad reality, since Barbara is the least interesting one. She's much better as Oracle, but since she's the silver age Batgirl character and DC has a hard on for that era... -_-

----------


## Confuzzled

> Which is a sad reality, since Barbara is the least interesting one. She's much better as Oracle, but since she's the silver age Batgirl character and DC has a hard on for that era... -_-


Stephanie is cute as Batgirl but she works better as Spoiler. When it comes to Batgirl, she's on the same level of Barbara IMO, if not a little more force-fit into the role.

I agree that Cass is the most interesting Batgirl but DC wants Batgirl to be more Kitty Pryde/Buffy-esque, less well, Cass. Which is a shame as Supergirl, Stargirl and Spoiler all fit that personality type to large degrees so why one more of it? Is it because Batman, and by extension, Batgirl, is a more popular brand?

----------


## Barbatos666

> Which is a sad reality, since Barbara is the least interesting one. She's much better as Oracle, but since she's the silver age Batgirl character and DC has a hard on for that era... -_-


I wish DC did have a hard on for the Silver Age, they actually seem to have a harder on for the late 80's and 90's. Besides I think its wrong to call her the SA Batgirl when her modern tenure is multiple times longer than Steph and soon will surpass Cass in terms of time. In terms of issue numbers she's surpassed both of them I think.

Steph is at 24 issues and and a one shot
Cass is at 79 issues and an annual + 4 issue crossover
Babs is at 72 issues, 2 one shots, 2 annuals and 4 more issues solicited + ongoing. Adding Batgirl and BOP since it utilizes the name as the lead billing increases the number by 19 more issues and 3 more solicited till cancellation. Which gives her the ability to take on both her predecessors. Not even counting Batgirl : Year One which was published after TKJ or during the Oracle years and thats another 9 issues.

It would be disingenuous to call her a Batgirl of a specific era, she's no more that than Cass and certainly less so than Steph.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Stephanie is cute as Batgirl but she works better as Spoiler. When it comes to Batgirl, she's on the same level of Barbara IMO, if not a little more force-fit into the role.
> 
> I agree that Cass is the most interesting Batgirl but DC wants Batgirl to be more Kitty Pryde/Buffy-esque, less well, Cass. Which is a shame as Supergirl, Stargirl and Spoiler all fit that personality type to large degrees so why one more of it? Is it because Batman, and by extension, Batgirl, is a more popular brand?


I think its because Batman is the dark character so they want Batgirl to be the light one.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think its because Batman is the dark character so they want Batgirl to be the light one.


This is why so many people preferred Dick & Damian to Bruce & his assorted sidekicks.

----------


## Badou

> Which is a sad reality, since Barbara is the least interesting one. She's much better as Oracle, but since she's the silver age Batgirl character and DC has a hard on for that era... -_-


How is she the least interesting one when she has the best Batgirl stories with Batgirl Year One? No other Batgirl story really comes close to that, imo.

----------


## Confuzzled

> How is she the least interesting one when she has the best Batgirl stories with Batgirl Year One? No other Batgirl story really comes close to that, imo.


_Batgirl: Year One_ though is very much a story set in the past and it works as well as it does _because_ of the nostalgia tint (and gorgeous Marcos Martin artwork) that it is filtered through. But the impression it gives off is that Barbara (and Dick) were always destined to move on from the roles of Batgirl and Robin respectively. Even if those roles had an irreplaceable part in their past, it was still their _past_.

Nothing during Barbara's Batgirl tenure ever had the impact as this:

----------


## Barbatos666

> _Batgirl: Year One_ though is very much a story set in the past and it works as well as it does _because_ of the nostalgia tint (and gorgeous Marcos Martin artwork) that it is filtered through. But the impression it gives off is that Barbara (and Dick) were always destined to move on from the roles of Batgirl and Robin respectively. Even if those roles had an irreplaceable part in their past, it was still their _past_.
> 
> Nothing during Barbara's Batgirl tenure ever had the impact as this:


But its still a Batgirl story and its the most acclaimed and well known Batgirl story. Its also been a while since I read it but I dont recall any flashback style narration. So you cant really say it was set in the past, yes it was canonically speaking but the story itself holds up without being tied to continuity, any continuity really. A few winks and foreshadowing doesn't mean its a flashback story.

----------


## El_Gato

> _Batgirl: Year One_ though is very much a story set in the past and it works as well as it does _because_ of the nostalgia tint (and gorgeous Marcos Martin artwork) that it is filtered through. But the impression it gives off is that Barbara (and Dick) were always destined to move on from the roles of Batgirl and Robin respectively. Even if those roles had an irreplaceable part in their past, it was still their _past_.
> 
> Nothing during Barbara's Batgirl tenure ever had the impact as this:


Couldn't have said it better myself! Also let's remember that the DCEU Batman is around 20 years into his superhero career, Dick has moved on to the Nightwing role and Jason is dead. Makes sense for Barbara to move on to Oracle and for Cass take over as Batgirl!

As for solo issues, Cassandra's title wasn't even cancelled due to low sales but because of bias from TPTB! She could have easily gone 100+ issues...

----------


## Barbatos666

And not to knock on that scene but what exactly is its impact on Batman mythology? or Batgirl mythology? its a nice heart warming scene but its not exactly something on par with Babs getting shot or Bruce getting his back broken. Those are iconic moments.

----------


## Agent Z

> *I wish DC did have a hard on for the Silver Age, they actually seem to have a harder on for the late 80's and 90's.* Besides I think its wrong to call her the SA Batgirl when her modern tenure is multiple times longer than Steph and soon will surpass Cass in terms of time. In terms of issue numbers she's surpassed both of them I think.
> 
> Steph is at 24 issues and and a one shot
> Cass is at 79 issues and an annual + 4 issue crossover
> Babs is at 72 issues, 2 one shots, 2 annuals and 4 more issues solicited + ongoing. Adding Batgirl and BOP since it utilizes the name as the lead billing increases the number by 19 more issues and 3 more solicited till cancellation. Which gives her the ability to take on both her predecessors. Not even counting Batgirl : Year One which was published after TKJ or during the Oracle years and thats another 9 issues.
> 
> It would be disingenuous to call her a Batgirl of a specific era, she's no more that than Cass and certainly less so than Steph.


Barry Allen is the Flash again.

Batman and Catwoman are getting married.

Hal Jordan is the main Green Lantern.

The current Titans book includes the Fab 5 and other characters introduced in that era.

Wonder Woman and Steve are in a relationship again.

The vast majority of characters introduced and developed in the 80s and 90s are either dead, in limbo or just not focused on enough.

Yeah, I'd say it's the Silver Age DC has a hard on for.

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## Barbatos666

> Couldn't have said it better myself! Also let's remember that the DCEU Batman is around 20 years into his superhero career, Dick has moved on to the Nightwing role and Jason is dead. Makes sense for Barbara to move on to Oracle and for Cass take over as Batgirl!
> 
> As for solo issues, Cassandra's title wasn't even cancelled due to low sales but because of bias from TPTB! She could have easily gone 100+ issues...


DCEU Batman is a mess(as is DCEU), I wouldn't be certain about him on any level till Flashpoint at the earliest. 

Babs last ongoing wasn't cancelled due to low sales either, nor are plenty of other books published by DC, like pretty much every Damian/Dick book ever for example, happens. A cancellation not tied to sales is actually a good thing, it implies that DC thinks you can do better than you're doing and wants to invest in something bigger. Cass was relaunched with a new book that was a disaster. I know conspiracy buffs will tell me DC wanted her to fail but I dont believe it so I dont wish to get in to an argument on that front.

----------


## Agent Z

edited post.

----------


## Agent Z

> And not to knock on that scene but what exactly is its impact on Batman mythology? or Batgirl mythology? its a nice heart warming scene but its not exactly something on par with Babs getting shot or Bruce getting his back broken. Those are iconic moments.


It's still a good scene in it's own right.

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## Barbatos666

> Barry Allen is the Flash again.
> 
> Batman and Catwoman are getting married.
> 
> Hal Jordan is the main Green Lantern.
> 
> The current Titans book includes the Fab 5 and other characters introduced in that era.
> 
> Wonder Woman and Steve are in a relationship again.
> ...


You're looking at it from one perspective (the characters) but what about tone? content? aesthetics? what about the same old 80's/90's stories being constantly revisited and used to define characters? what about the sequels to those hit stories? sequels that almost always fail but they keep churning them out anyway.

----------


## El_Gato

> Barry Allen is the Flash again.
> 
> Batman and Catwoman are getting married.
> 
> Hal Jordan is the main Green Lantern.
> 
> The current Titans book includes the Fab 5 and other characters introduced in that era.
> 
> Wonder Woman and Steve are in a relationship again.
> ...


Don't forget Superman going back to being married to Lois and doning his red trunks again.

Or everything pointing to the new JL lineup being the 60's lineup. 

Or Barbara being Batgirl instead of Oracle.

Or Green Arrow and Black Canary dating again...

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## Barbatos666

And what about media adaptations? how many times do we need to see Watchmen, TDKR and DOS adapted and readapted in every medium over and over again.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Which is a sad reality, since Barbara is the *least interesting one*. She's much better as Oracle, but since she's the silver age Batgirl character and DC has a hard on for that era... -_-


What are you basing this on?  And even if that were true, to the general public Barbara Gordon is the one people are most interested in.  No one even knows these other usurpers exist.
Why would DC try to drum up interest in these unknown characters when they already have a character known and beloved by the general public? Look at the debacle they had when
they made Catwoman someone else instead of the Catwoman from Batman Returns, and how much better Catwoman was received in The Dark Knight Rises when she was Selina Kyle
again.  And let's not forget the "what the hell?" reaction Batgirl got when she was Alfred's niece instead of Jim Gordon's daughter. Even to this day the biggest question in the Gotham
TV series is how does Barbara Kean become James Gordon's wife so she can have Barbara Gordon. Just because a few hardcore fans prefer one of the usurpers doesn't mean everyone
else would feel the same way.

----------


## Agent Z

> What are you basing this on?  And even if that were true, to the general public Barbara Gordon is the one people are most interested in.  No one even knows these other usurpers exist.
> Why would DC try to drum up interest in these unknown characters when they already have a character known and beloved by the general public? Look at the debacle they had when
> they made Catwoman someone else instead of the Catwoman from Batman Returns, and how much better Catwoman was received in The Dark Knight Rises when she was Selina Kyle
> again.  And let's not forget the "what the hell?" reaction Batgirl got when she was Alfred's niece instead of Jim Gordon's daughter. Even to this day the biggest question in the Gotham
> TV series is how does Barbara Kean become James Gordon's wife so she can have Barbara Gordon. Just because a few hardcore fans prefer one of the usurpers doesn't mean everyone
> else would feel the same way.


The Catwoman movie would have been hated regardless of which Catwoman it used and the only reason it wasn't even more hated is because it wasn't Selina. Cass actually does exist in the comics unlike Patience. Barbara being Alfred's niece instead of Gordon's daughter was the least of that movie's issues.

----------


## Badou

> _Batgirl: Year One_ though is very much a story set in the past and it works as well as it does _because_ of the nostalgia tint (and gorgeous Marcos Martin artwork) that it is filtered through. But the impression it gives off is that Barbara (and Dick) were always destined to move on from the roles of Batgirl and Robin respectively. Even if those roles had an irreplaceable part in their past, it was still their _past_.
> 
> Nothing during Barbara's Batgirl tenure ever had the impact as this:


Batgirl Year One is still a far superior story than anything from Cass' run. No one talks about that moment from Cass' run as some all time great moment. Year One still holds up and is the perfect foundation to build a Batgirl movie off of. Something that Barbara will always have over Cass too that Year One showed is that Barbara doesn't need a strong direct connection to Batman to be Batgirl. She is a hero on her own and while inspired by Batman doesn't need to be under his cape to be a hero like Cass does.

----------


## Agent Z

> You're looking at it from one perspective (the characters) but what about tone? content? aesthetics? what about the same old 80's/90's stories being constantly revisited and used to define characters? what about the sequels to those hit stories? sequels that almost always fail but they keep churning them out anyway.


I'm looking at it from the perspective of the characters because that it first and foremost what DC puts out. DC might acknowledge begrudgingly a few stories from the 80s or 90s but who they push shows which era they prefer. 

And what aestehtics from the 80s or 90s is present today? It isn't like Aquaman lost his hand again.

----------


## Agent Z

> And what about media adaptations? how many times do we need to see Watchmen, TDKR and DOS adapted and readapted in every medium over and over again.


Watchmen has one movie. TDKR has one animated movie and a semi adaptation in live action. DoS has been done a grand total of twice. That's it.

----------


## Agent Z

> Batgirl Year One is still a far superior story than anything from Cass' run. No one talks about that moment from Cass' run as some all time great moment. Year One still holds up and is the perfect foundation to build a Batgirl movie off of. Something that Barbara will always have over Cass too that Year One showed is that Barbara doesn't need a strong direct connection to Batman to be Batgirl. She is a hero on her own and while inspired by Batman doesn't need to be under his cape to be a hero like Cass does.


The entire exchange between Cass and Bruce is how she doesn't need to be under Bruce's cape. And who says no one talks about it? It's constantly brought up as one of the best moments from Cass's run.

----------


## El_Gato

> What are you basing this on?  And even if that were true, to the general public Barbara Gordon is the one people are most interested in.  No one even knows these other usurpers exist.
> Why would DC try to drum up interest in these unknown characters when they already have a character known and beloved by the general public? Look at the debacle they had when
> they made Catwoman someone else instead of the Catwoman from Batman Returns, and how much better Catwoman was received in The Dark Knight Rises when she was Selina Kyle
> again.  And let's not forget the "what the hell?" reaction Batgirl got when she was Alfred's niece instead of Jim Gordon's daughter. Even to this day the biggest question in the Gotham
> TV series is how does Barbara Kean become James Gordon's wife so she can have Barbara Gordon. Just because a few hardcore fans prefer one of the usurpers doesn't mean everyone
> else would feel the same way.


1) Cassandra would bring far more publicity to the film than Barbara, for the simple fact she'd be an Asian lead, a rarity in movies. Not to mention the growing Asian box office!

2) Since when did being known to the public mean anything? Black Panther was an unknown until he shown up in Civil War. Guardians of the Galaxy were unknowns as well, and they beat several icons at the box office. Same with Suicide Squad. Being iconic means nothing, except there's already set expectations.

3) Catwoman failed because it was a crappy movie and had no connection to Batman or Gotham. Comparing CINO to a hypothetical Cass Batgirl film is like comparing apples to oranges. Cass would actually have a connection to Batman, Gotham and Barbara would be her mentor as Oracle.

4) Cass actually has a good story that warrants being told

----------


## Barbatos666

> I'm looking at it from the perspective of the characters because that it first and foremost what DC puts out. DC might acknowledge begrudgingly a few stories from the 80s or 90s but who they push shows which era they prefer.


Begrudgingly? it wasn't enough for them to leave TDKR as it is, they returned with TDKSA, Master Race and All Star. Its been adapted as its own 2 part animated film and had massive influence on Rises and BvS. Watchmen got prequels and now a sequel, its been adapted in to a movie and will be adapted to Tv. TKJ and Gotham by Gaslight just got their own animated films recently. DOS was adapted in animation once and yet is already getting another 2 part film. It was also influential on BvS, Judas Contract got adapted as did Batman Year One in animation and I wont be surprised if Knightfall and Red Son follow suit name one Silver Age adaptation in live action or animation? the biggest Silver Age inspired books DC has published during the last 15 years are All Star Superman which also got animated and Super Sons. 

They've also got plans for a sequel to Arkham Asylum. DC makes its bread and butter milking the late 80's and 90's across every medium in what manner they can. DC first and foremost puts out books and films and animation with specific stories, tone and aesthetics almost all of which are inspired by their 80's and 90's nostalgia. The characters are the least important part of the equation.

----------


## Badou

> The entire exchange between Cass and Bruce is how she doesn't need to be under Bruce's cape. And who says no one talks about it? It's constantly brought up as one of the best moments from Cass's run.


It only gets mention for best Cass' moments. No one considers it an all time great Batman moment, and she is under Bruce's cape though. All her fans desperately want her to be officially adopted by Bruce again and be directly tied to him. Barbara isn't tied to him like that and is more on her own. Plus she has more depth of stories. Her father is Jim Gordon, she has a romance with Dick Grayson, she is best friends with Black Canary, created the Birds of Prey team with characters like Huntress on it, and has interests outside of being a hero in school and technology. There is just so much more you can do with her as a character to build off of.

----------


## Barbatos666

> 1) Cassandra would bring far more publicity to the film than Barbara, for the simple fact she'd be an Asian lead, a rarity in movies. Not to mention the growing Asian box office!
> 
> 2) Since when did being known to the public mean anything? Black Panther was an unknown until he shown up in Civil War. Guardians of the Galaxy were unknowns as well, and they beat several icons at the box office. Same with Suicide Squad. Being iconic means nothing, except there's already set expectations.
> 
> 3) Catwoman failed because it was a crappy movie and had no connection to Batman or Gotham. Comparing CINO to a hypothetical Cass Batgirl film is like comparing apples to oranges. Cass would actually have a connection to Batman, Gotham and Barbara would be her mentor as Oracle.
> 
> 4) Cass actually has a good story that warrants being told


The Asian box office isn't a homogeneous commodity, last I checked Suicide Squad was banned in China because of Katana.
Being known is an advantage but can also be a curse, it goes both ways and Squad was milking Joker and Harley, hardly a good example.
Agreed
Subjective but from what I understand Batgirl Year One is the definitive Batgirl story.

----------


## Barbatos666

I'd also add that Chinese people love Spider-Man, Transformers and Iron Man, they already get Kung Fu films starring their own actors every day so this idea that Cass will come in and sweep the Chinese box office is a massive myth. They probably thought the same about Katana lol until SS got banned.

----------


## Barbatos666

An Asian lead will be subject to FAR more scrutiny by Chinese censorship boards than a White lead and if they find anything they deem offensive or stereotypical then expect the ban hammer to drop.

----------


## El_Gato

> The Asian box office isn't a homogeneous commodity, last I checked Suicide Squad was banned in China because of Katana.
> Being known is an advantage but can also be a curse, it goes both ways and Squad was milking Joker and Harley, hardly a good example.
> Agreed
> Subjective but from what I understand Batgirl Year One is the definitive Batgirl story.


Katana didn't get SS banned in China soley because she's Japanese, but because her mask very visibly depicts the Japanese flag. China considered that political propaganda, and considering their history with Japan, banned the film. Cassadra wouldn't have that problem though.

Anyway we'll see what DC does, but to me I'd rather see Cass as Batgirl and Babs as Oracle. I'm sure when Disney releases Mulan and it makes gangbusters in Asia, WB will surely consider it. One can dream...

----------


## Confuzzled

> The Asian box office isn't a homogeneous commodity, last I checked Suicide Squad was banned in China because of Katana.
> Being known is an advantage but can also be a curse, it goes both ways and Squad was milking Joker and Harley, hardly a good example.
> Agreed
> Subjective but from what I understand Batgirl Year One is the definitive Batgirl story.


It wasn't banned because of Katana. It simply didn't get the release permission because they thought it would flop as Batman v Superman flopped in China, so not worth spending money on distributing it.

----------


## Agent Z

> It only gets mention for best Cass' moments. No one considers it an all time great Batman moment, and she is under Bruce's cape though. All her fans desperately want her to be officially adopted by Bruce again and be directly tied to him. Barbara isn't tied to him like that and is more on her own. Plus she has more depth of stories. Her father is Jim Gordon, she has a romance with Dick Grayson, she is best friends with Black Canary, created the Birds of Prey team with characters like Huntress on it, and has interests outside of being a hero in school and technology. There is just so much more you can do with her as a character to build off of.


So? Shouldn't the fact that it's a great moment for Cass as opposed to Bruce be considered a good thing if we're talking about her being a hero in her own right? And she wasn't any more under Bruce's cape than Babs was, she barely interacted with him in her book. Cass fans would be mostly happy with her being acknowledged and Babs was more her mentor than Bruce was.

Also, being a founder of Birds of Prey is an Oracle feat not a Batgirl one. Rebirth tried and failed to make Batgirl a BoP character and we saw how that failed without any of the development and experience Babs attained as Batgirl. Remove that and all she's got is being Jim's daughter and Nightwing's girlfriend and even the last one gets overshadowed by Dick/Kory in adaptations.

Cass' original book lasted 79 issues and was only cancelled because the editors were trying to get rid of her. I think we can get a pretty large amount of stories out of her as well if creators are allowed to use her.

----------


## El_Gato

> It wasn't banned because of Katana. It simply didn't get the release permission because they thought it would flop as Batman v Superman flopped in China, so not worth spending money on distributing it.


Was that really the reason? Hmm maybe it was a combination of BVS bombing, Katana's mask, and Enchantress/magic.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Katana didn't get SS banned in China soley because she's Japanese, but because her mask very visibly depicts the Japanese flag. China considered that political propaganda, and considering their history with Japan, banned the film. Cassadra wouldn't have that problem though.
> 
> Anyway we'll see what DC does, but to me I'd rather see Cass as Batgirl and Babs as Oracle. I'm sure when Disney releases Mulan and it makes gangbusters in Asia, WB will surely consider it. One can dream...


I never did say SS was banned because Katana was Japanese though. I said that Chinese censorship boards will scrutinize Asian leads with much more vigor than Asian ones. Also they can find any excuse, for all we know they might object to Cassandra being a mute dragon lady, they might object to the nature of Shiva and David's conception of Cass, they might object to Shiva herself.

You cant compare her to Mulan or Black Panther. T'Challa subverts every trope Black people and Africa is associated with, he's not drug dealer/pimp/rapper/shady police officer etc with a heart of gold, Cassandra's primary gimmick is martial arts and Kung Fu poses. As an Asian she reinforces many stereotypes and and fails to provide Chinese box office with a unique product beyond her Bat branding.

----------


## Agent Z

> Begrudgingly? it wasn't enough for them to leave TDKR as it is, they returned with TDKSA, Master Race and All Star. Its been adapted as its own 2 part animated film and had massive influence on Rises and BvS. Watchmen got prequels and now a sequel, its been adapted in to a movie and will be adapted to Tv. TKJ and Gotham by Gaslight just got their own animated films recently. DOS was adapted in animation once and yet is already getting another 2 part film. It was also influential on BvS, Judas Contract got adapted as did Batman Year One in animation and I wont be surprised if Knightfall and Red Son follow suit name one Silver Age adaptation in live action or animation? the biggest Silver Age inspired books DC has published during the last 15 years are All Star Superman which also got animated and Super Sons. 
> 
> They've also got plans for a sequel to Arkham Asylum. DC makes its bread and butter milking the late 80's and 90's across every medium in what manner they can. DC first and foremost puts out books and films and animation with specific stories, tone and aesthetics almost all of which are inspired by their 80's and 90's nostalgia. The characters are the least important part of the equation.


Then why use the Silver Age characters constantly while killing off or limboing anyone made before 1984? Why are Cass and Steph forbidden from appearing in even elseworld tales and why do we have Barry as the main Flash across adaptations as opposed to Wally?

As for Silver Age stories, tone and aesthetics look no further than Supergirl, Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, Teen Titans Go and JL Action. Hell, that's how they're describing the Shazam movie.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Was that really the reason? Hmm maybe it was a combination of BVS bombing, Katana's mask, and Enchantress/magic.


It couldn't be Enchantress because _Thor: Ragnarok_ with Hela's magic and raising the undead released in China and did just fine.

----------


## Agent Z

> I never did say SS was banned because Katana was Japanese though. I said that Chinese censorship boards will scrutinize Asian leads with much more vigor than Asian ones. Also they can find any excuse, for all we know they might object to Cassandra being a mute dragon lady, they might object to the nature of Shiva and David's conception of Cass, they might object to Shiva herself.
> 
> You cant compare her to Mulan or Black Panther. T'Challa subverts every trope Black people and Africa is associated with, he's not drug dealer/pimp/rapper/shady police officer etc with a heart of gold, Cassandra's primary gimmick is martial arts and Kung Fu poses. As an Asian she reinforces many stereotypes and and fails to provide Chinese box office with a unique product beyond her Bat branding.


Martial arts are not the only aspect to her. She's a disabled person and child of abuse who overcomes her cruel upbringing to become a hero. It's like saying Mulan is a stereotype because of her martial arts. Cass wasn't a dragon lady until her stupid character derailment later on. Avoid that and I doubt they'll find much to be offended by.

----------


## Confuzzled

> And not to knock on that scene but what exactly is its impact on Batman mythology? or Batgirl mythology? its a nice heart warming scene but its not exactly something on par with Babs getting shot or Bruce getting his back broken. Those are iconic moments.


Those are pretty sad "iconic" moments for those characters lol. Babs didn't even get shot in her own book, or even because _she herself_ was a threat in some way.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Couldn't have said it better myself! Also let's remember that the DCEU Batman is around 20 years into his superhero career, Dick has moved on to the Nightwing role and Jason is dead. Makes sense for Barbara to move on to Oracle and for Cass take over as Batgirl!
> 
> As for solo issues, Cassandra's title wasn't even cancelled due to low sales but because of bias from TPTB! *She could have easily gone 100+ issues...*


That would have been a landmark for a minority superheroine. Or in this decade, for pretty much any comic book not titled _Batman_.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It wasn't banned because of Katana. It simply didn't get the release permission because they thought it would flop as Batman v Superman flopped in China, so not worth spending money on distributing it.


That's weird. Because Justice League was released in China and it ended up making more money, $106 million,  than Wonder Woman, $90 million, or Batman v Superman, $96 million, in China.
And is $96 million in China considered a flop?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Those are pretty sad "iconic" moments for those characters lol. Babs didn't even get shot in her own book, or even because _she herself_ was a threat in some way.


Not to mention it was a misogynist editorial decision. Even Alan Moore was critical of the decision to cripple Barbara said of it   "I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon - 
who was Batgirl at the time - and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project ... [He] said, 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.' It was probably one of the areas where they should've 
reined me in, but they didn't."  They basically fridged Barbara, even if they didn't outright kill her, in that the only purpose in doing that was merely a plot device to move Batman's story arc forward.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Then why use the Silver Age characters constantly while killing off or limboing anyone made before 1984? Why are Cass and Steph forbidden from appearing in even elseworld tales and why do we have Barry as the main Flash across adaptations as opposed to Wally?
> 
> As for Silver Age stories, tone and aesthetics look no further than Supergirl, Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, Teen Titans Go and JL Action. Hell, that's how they're describing the Shazam movie.


Their characters, their choices really. The world doesn't revolve around Wally ( I dont even like Barry btw) or Cass and Steph. They still keep using Harley who utterly debunks your argument, Bane, Doomsday, Cyborg Superman, Prometheus , Raven, Beast Boy, Starfire, Deathstroke, Suicide Squad just to name a few. This is less about specific characters and more about specific mantles. 

I cant comment comment on Supergirl but you do realize that the Flash is heavily based on Waid and Johns. The whole dead momma thing has been ridiculed. Its nothing like the Silver Age beyond the occassional homage. Neither are TT go or JLA. Kids shows doesn't equal Silver Age. The 2 Batman 66 animated are more suitable examples. And I counter Shazam with Aquaman and Suicide Squad. Legends is the only real representation from what I can see, oh and Batman Brave and the Bold show. In spite of all that the 80s and 90s obsession utterly dwarfs the SA. I didn't even mention YO being the inspiration behind Batman Begins or The Long Halloween and Killing Joke on TDK.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Martial arts are not the only aspect to her. She's a disabled person and child of abuse who overcomes her cruel upbringing to become a hero. It's like saying Mulan is a stereotype because of her martial arts. Cass wasn't a dragon lady until her stupid character derailment later on. Avoid that and I doubt they'll find much to be offended by.


And what makes you think the disabled person aspect will be met with pats on the back? I can easily see arguments like" why does the minority girl have to be mute". Its the same thing as Cyborg, the moment he gained big gun level exposure he was attacked for being a bad rep for Black people because of his own disabilities. The same thing one finds empowering the other can interpret as degrading.
Cass is not a Disney princess,  like T'Challa she's not an independant character,she's not the lead of her own franchise, she doesn't subvert expectations and tropes, she doesn't offer anything to the Chinese audience that they cant find in their local cinema. She's another spinoff Bat character among dozens of others. Babs is as well but Babs fans aren't busy comparing her to Panther and Mulan.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That's weird. Because Justice League was released in China and it ended up making more money, $106 million,  than Wonder Woman, $90 million, or Batman v Superman, $96 million, in China.
> And is $96 million in China considered a flop?


After the no go of Suicide Squad, WB made a deal with a Chinese distribution and production company called Wanda Group for Wonder Woman and Justice League.

96 million was a flop or disappointment for BvS considering the marketing and PR budget WB spent in China.

----------


## Barbatos666

> That's weird. Because Justice League was released in China and it ended up making more money, $106 million,  than Wonder Woman, $90 million, or Batman v Superman, $96 million, in China.
> And is $96 million in China considered a flop?


First time I'm hearing of this myself. Katana and Enchantress were troublesome for their government IIRC.
Hela has been mentioned but she was nothing like Enchantress whatsoever.

----------


## Carabas

> _Batgirl: Year One_ though is very much a story set in the past and it works as well as it does _because_ of the nostalgia tint (and gorgeous Marcos Martin artwork) that it is filtered through. But the impression it gives off is that Barbara (and Dick) were always destined to move on from the roles of Batgirl and Robin respectively. Even if those roles had an irreplaceable part in their past, it was still their _past_.
> 
> Nothing during Barbara's Batgirl tenure ever had the impact as this:


It's a fantastic scene that made me love Cass even more. But it would not work at all in the DCEU where you do not have a Batman set up to be a proper hero rather than a murderous psycho who brands the people that survive his vigilantism.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Not to mention it was a misogynist editorial decision. Even Alan Moore was critical of the decision to cripple Barbara said of it   "I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon - 
> who was Batgirl at the time - and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project ... [He] said, 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.' It was probably one of the areas where they should've 
> reined me in, but they didn't."  They basically fridged Barbara, even if they didn't outright kill her, in that the only purpose in doing that was merely a plot device to move Batman's story arc forward.


At that point in time, she was probably viewed by Wein and his men as a "failed" and throwaway character, hence why she was so dispensable. If it hadn't been for Kim Yale, it is scary to think what might have happened to Barbara as a character in DC mythos. Would she have gone the Sarah Essen, Jean DeWolff and Mattie Franklin Spider-Girl route to disappear into obscurity? Who knows.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It's a fantastic scene that made me love Cass even more. But it would not work at all in the DCEU where you do not have a Batman set up to be a proper hero rather than a murderous psycho who brands the people that survive his vigilantism.


WB/DC though will probably use the Danny Elfman or Hans Zimmer theme when she points to the symbol so people will probably think of the animated series or the Nolan films, not BvS.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Was that really the reason? Hmm maybe it was a combination of BVS bombing, Katana's mask, and Enchantress/magic.


It may have been all of those things. I swear I also heard that SS was banned in China because the Chinese interpreted it as a kind "Eff the Man" movie that encourages rebellion against the government.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It's a fantastic scene that made me love Cass even more. But it would not work at all in the DCEU where you do not have a Batman set up to be a proper hero rather than a murderous psycho who brands the people that survive his vigilantism.


You ARE aware that there is no evidence that Batman was "a murderous psycho" for more than a couple years, right? The whole point of BvS is that he was ground down by twenty years of pointless war and had reached an "I don't care anymore" phase. 

There is ZERO reason to believe he was as he was in BvS for the entirety of his career. In fact that would make his sudden turn toward optimism in Justice League even more incredible.

----------


## ross61

> Not to mention it was a misogynist editorial decision. Even Alan Moore was critical of the decision to cripple Barbara said of it   "I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon - 
> who was Batgirl at the time - and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project ... [He] said, 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.' It was probably one of the areas where they should've 
> reined me in, but they didn't."  They basically fridged Barbara, even if they didn't outright kill her, in that the only purpose in doing that was merely a plot device to move Batman's story arc forward.


This quote is always funny, because couldn't Moore have just... not crippled her and had her assaulted.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This quote is always funny, because couldn't Moore have just... not crippled her and had her assaulted.


Well, for what it's worth, the story at the time was intended to be non-canon. The decision to make it canon came later and I'm pretty sure Moore didn't approve of that call.

He didn't think at the time that he was doing any permanent harm.

----------


## Elmo

> It's a fantastic scene that made me love Cass even more. But it would not work at all in the DCEU where you do not have a Batman set up to be a proper hero rather than a murderous psycho who brands the people that survive his vigilantism.


It could totally work. Especially since the point of BvS was him growing out of that dark and brutal persona.

----------


## Agent Z

> The world doesn't revolve around Wally ( I dont even like Barry btw) or Cass and Steph.


Nice straw man.




> They still keep using Harley who utterly debunks your argument,Bane, Doomsday, Cyborg Superman, Prometheus , Raven, Beast Boy, Starfire, Deathstroke, Suicide Squad just to name a few.


And if I claimed theyd never use this characters, youd actually have a point.




> This is less about specific characters and more about specific mantles.


Its about DC being comfortable pushing certain characters over the other. You can try to discount the importance of which characters are pushed all you like, but its still there.




> I cant comment comment on Supergirl but you do realize that the Flash is heavily based on Waid and Johns.


Very little of Waids run has influenced the show. They use Barry, Barrys rogues, time travel and dimension hopping, the second season used Earth 2 for crying out loud. 




> Neither are TT go or JLA. Kids shows doesn't equal Silver Age.


The tone is very much like the Silver Age. Thats the era where comics where most known for being marketed to kids.





> The 2 Batman 66 animated are more suitable examples. And I counter Shazam with Aquaman and Suicide Squad.


Aquamans not even out yet.




> Legends is the only real representation from what I can see, oh and Batman Brave and the Bold show. In spite of all that the 80s and 90s obsession utterly dwarfs the SA. I didn't even mention YO being the inspiration behind Batman Begins or The Long Halloween and Killing Joke on TDK.


Theres also Smallville which featured numerous Silver Age stories, characters and elements. The Silver Age continues to do so to this day. Hell, the Wonder Woman movie has more in common with the Golden and Silver Age than the Perez reboot.

----------


## Agent Z

> I can easily see arguments like" why does the minority girl have to be mute". Its the same thing as Cyborg, the moment he gained big gun level exposure he was attacked for being a bad rep for Black people because of his own disabilities.


That isn’t why Cyborg was attacked. He was attacked for poor focus, bad designs, being background fodder and his book being terrible. None of these apply to Cass. Or they won’t if DC/WB play their cards right. But that’s a different argument.



> The same thing one finds empowering the other can interpret as degrading.


Which can be said of pretty much everything. 



> Cass is not a Disney princess,  like T'Challa she's not an independant character,she's not the lead of her own franchise, she doesn't subvert expectations and tropes, she doesn't offer anything to the Chinese audience that they cant find in their local cinema. She's another spinoff Bat character among dozens of others. Babs is as well but Babs fans aren't busy comparing her to Panther and Mulan.


No one claimed Cass was a Disney Princess or the King of an African country. They pointed out how she brings racial diversity to the table like Mulan and T’Challa.

----------


## Confuzzled

Another thing to note is that the "Disney Princess" brand was not even a thing when Mulan was first released. In fact, originally she was even left out of the Disney Princess branding. So she was much closer to Cass being a general stereotype breaking Chinese/Chinese origin heroine and overall badass.

----------


## Carabas

> You ARE aware that there is no evidence that Batman was "a murderous psycho" for more than a couple years, right?


Yes. But that version of Batfleck has not been in the movies. The audience does not know him. And, you know, it's not as if the other movie Batmen were that much better.

----------


## Elmo

> Yes. But that version of Batfleck has not been in the movies. The audience does not know him. And, you know, it's not as if the other movie Batmen were that much better.


They don't need to. If they are able to establish that history, that along with the decades of media history the audience knows him for will be enough

----------


## Barbatos666

Those are criticisms from people who follow the character in the comics and can apply to any character at any given time( T'Challa hasn't exactly had great runs since Hudlin either). The argument regarding Cyborg's body and...um testicles is more elemental. He can have great stories and be important but there has been criticism over DCs choice to use Cyborg as their top Black guy on principle alone.

The only Asian character being a mute Kung Fu fighter with average intelligence can easily become a headache for WB especially in a family of characters who're all intelligent, expressive, dynamic and capable fighters as well.

Only for characters like Cyborg, Oracle and Cass.

And both Mulan and T'Challa are not tied to other franchises, they're independant. Maybe Cass should've been compared with Falcon or Batwing instead if token diversity is to be her contribution. But nobody is asking for them to get films. If we're doing comparisons then lets do them on an equal scaling.

Its not a strawman, Scarecrow is a strawman haha.

DC has pushed plenty of 80's and 90's characters so the claim that they love Silver Age over everything else is false. 

And those characters have fundamental things going in their favor as well. Barry doesn't need Bart, Wally or Jay narratively but Wally does need Barry. Cass and Steph need Babs but she doesn't need them(Badou also mentioned other narrative advantages for Babs). Rayner needs Jordan to go psycho for his own existence, Tim needs Jason's brains bashed to exist himself. All these characters are dependant on their predecessor. DCAU has in the past used Hal's origins for Kyle and effectively renamed Jason as Tim. This is why these characters struggle.

The entire show is based on speed force learning and Johns dead momma non sense. It used Johns story as the basis for Thawne and then Zolomon and Savitar as main villains. A parallel universe doesn't make anything Silver Age. By that logic TDKR and Watchmen are SA stories. Mark Waids Daredevil is another example of SA inspired story telling. 

You're gasping at straws with those examples. So according to you 90 % of toons are SA. I literally gave you Brave and the Bold.
Lighthearted does not equal Silver Age. Might as well call Green Lantern movie and Batman & Robin ( used Heart of Ice from the 90's as an inspiration)as SA material too. Give me actual story adaptations and usage of concepts instead of looking at kid friendly or fun material and calling it silver age.

Smallville was over 7 years ago.

Shazam isn't out either but Aquaman is rocking his 90's look. We do know that.

And WW was better off for it.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Another thing to note is that the "Disney Princess" brand was not even a thing when Mulan was first released. In fact, originally she was even left out of the Disney Princess branding. So she was much closer to Cass being a general stereotype breaking Chinese/Chinese origin heroine and overall badass.


Except Cass doesn't break any stereotype

----------


## Elmo

> Except Cass doesn't break any stereotype


This is a joke, right?

----------


## Confuzzled

The Cyborg and Cass comparison is apples to oranges. Cyborg fits a disturbing trend in Western media that tends to neuter many black male characters. Cass being a kung fu expert is not much of a problem as she embraces her culture and better a Chinese person playing a kung fu hero than a white person playing a kung fu hero, otherwise you end up with the criticisms faced by the Iron Fist show's insistence of keeping Danny Rand white.

----------


## Assam

> I know I might be alone in this but I'd love to see Barbara as Oracle and Cass as her protégé and Batgirl.


You're definitely not alone. Along with those here who've shown their agreement, tons of people have been calling for Cass to be the Batgirl in the movie across social media over the last few days. 




> How is she the least interesting one when she has the best Batgirl stories with Batgirl Year One? No other Batgirl story really comes close to that, imo.


Leaving aside my not being aware of how much you've actually read of the other Batgirls, I personally see Year One as a good story, about on par with most of Steph's stories. Thing is, that's all she's got. Simone's run and Burnside have their fans, but they're just as equally hated by others. Cass has far more great stories (and plenty more moments just as impactful as the one posted before) a lot of which are definitely better than Year One. 

Also, in regards to what you actually asked, even if Year One was a complete masterpiece (which I know plenty view it as, but people also like to say that about Killing Joke and Hush) that wouldn't somehow make Babsgirl more interesting. As Oracle, she's absolutely Cass's equal in terms of complexity, but in the 60's and 70's, Babs, like most characters, was pretty generic and she had even less of a presence in the 80's than she did in the previous decades.




> And what makes you think the disabled person aspect will be met with pats on the back? I can easily see arguments like" why does the minority girl have to be mute".


Hey, disabled person here whose talked to many other Cass fans who are also disabled and/or not white? No one really cares. _Most_ media is problematic in some way and news sites will always try to spin some BS, but this almost never affects movie sales*, especially if a film is being praised up the wazoo (an unlikely but not impossible feat for the DCEU), and for the people who this actually MATTERS for, we'd just be happy about the representation. There are very few leading Asian heroes in Western media (even fewer that are actually complex characters) and almost no mentally disabled heroes to be portrayed in a positive light. 

* And I think the coverage would in general be POSITIVE, very much along the lines of how it was when Billy in the 2017 Power Rangers movie was Autistic. 

Also, while there's a definite case for Cass having selective mutism, she ain't mute. 




> No one claimed Cass was a Disney Princess


Although Marvel really should get to lining up Gabby Kinney for that role.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Except Cass doesn't break any stereotype


Much like you're wrong about DC somehow having Cass's best interests in mind when they cancelled her solo, destroyed her character and made her a villain, you're *VERY* wrong here.

----------


## Barbatos666

> This is a joke, right?


Um no. Much like there's more to Dick than just being the first Robin and Jason than being the Robin who died characterwise at the end of the day these characters need a marketing hook. Cassandra's marketing angle is her martial arts skill. That may well only 1% of her character( which it isnt) but thats her hook.

An Asian character whose hook is MA and her nemesis/mother is dragon lady isn't exactly breaking stereotypes.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Barry Allen is the Flash again.


And they eventually brought Wally back. Fan backlash was so strong that they needed to, but evidently it wasn't strong enough for them to abandon Barry as the Flash altogether. Barry is also still interacting with characters not present in the Silver Age and his solo book is introducing the occasional new villain and dealing with elements that are not geared towards kids. 




> Batman and Catwoman are getting married.


Not something that's ever happened with the main versions, and certainly not with the Silver Age ones. And Catwoman has always been his most popular love interest anyway. A lot of us here were introduced to her through 90s media like B:TAS or Batman Returns. Them getting married is a natural path to take no matter what version of the characters we are dealing with. 




> Hal Jordan is the main Green Lantern.


Yet when he came back, none of the other Lanterns dissapeared, including Kyle. Same cannot be said for when Kyle was created and Hal as thrown under the bus and the entire Corps was killed off so that Kyle could be the special one. And now, Simon and Jessica get their own solo and get to be on the Justice League. None of the Lanterns are doing that great. 




> The current Titans book includes the Fab 5 and other characters introduced in that era.


True, but they are not wearing their iconic sidekick costumes or identities from that period. And this is a case of DC's using the Silver Age setup as being strange, as the number of people who are nostaligic for this era are dwarfed by those who love the stuff that came after. 





> Wonder Woman and Steve are in a relationship again.


Yet Barbara Minerva is the Cheetah instead of Priscilla Rich, Hippolyta is a brunette instead of a blonde and in a relationship with Philippus (awesome!), Etta is black and works with Steve and is also a lesbian, Diana does not have a secret ID, she is the daughter of Zeus, she does not have the invisible plane, and Dr. Cyber isn't a woman in a tin mask. 





> Don't forget Superman going back to being married to Lois and doning his red trunks again.


Superman was never married to Lois in the Silver Age, and he had the trunks all throughout the post Crisis era




> Or Barbara being Batgirl instead of Oracle.


Babs as Batgirl isn't tied to any specific era. Cass didn't show up until 1999, so Babs is still the Batgirl of the 90s thanks to B:TAS. Her being Batgirl could be considered catering to the nostalgia of 90s kids as much as it is for people who read her in the Bronze age. 




> Theres also Smallville which featured numerous Silver Age stories, characters and elements. The Silver Age continues to do so to this day. Hell, the Wonder Woman movie has more in common with the Golden and Silver Age than the Perez reboot.


Is Smallville using silver age stuff bad? The post Crisis era was all about erasing history and ignoring elements of the lore, so I'd say Smallville utilizing that stuff is more respectful to Superman than the post Crisis era. Which didn't prove sustainable in the long run. 

The Wonder Woman movie only had the romance with Steve Trevor and her involvement in a world war. Even then, the romance played out differently and she didn't hide her identity from him, and it was World War I instead of II. She was also trained by Antiope, a character from the Perez era, Etta was Steve's secretary, her being a demigod and not being able to return to the island makes her an immortal living in our world (whereas she could return all the time in the Golden Age), the lasso is referred to as Hestia's Lasso and doesn't have its pre-Crisis powers, and battling Ares as her main mission is straight out of Gods and Mortals. The Amazons also didn't seem technologically advanced, much like Perez's take. 




> Leaving aside my not being aware of how much you've actually read of the other Batgirls, I personally see Year One as a good story, about on par with most of Steph's stories. *Thing is, that's all she's got.* Simone's run and Burnside have their fans, but they're just as equally hated by others. Cass has far more great stories (and plenty more moments just as impactful as the one posted before) a lot of which are definitely better than Year One.


Except for all her other media appearances, and DCAU tie in comics. The former is a far bigger deal than anything done with her (or the other Batgirls) in the comics, and is where she got the majority of her fans because she reached a far bigger audience than the comics are able to reach. She pretty much already won the status of being the main Batgirl before the other two were even invented.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yeah Cass is more like the Batgirl of early to mid 2000's at best. I'm starting to wonder just who exactly is coasting off specific era nostalgia.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah Cass is more like the Batgirl of early to mid 2000's at best. I'm starting to wonder just who exactly is coasting off specific era nostalgia.


Specific era nostalgia may not be an actual thing, really. The returns of Hal as GL, Barry as the Flash, Babs as Batgirl and Kara as Supergirl didn't really stop an influx of new characters (heroes, villains, supporting) who obviously weren't around in the Silver and Bronze age. So I don't see those eras are being re-created down to every last detail. It always seemed pretty strawmanish.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> After the no go of Suicide Squad, WB made a deal with a Chinese distribution and production company called Wanda Group for Wonder Woman and Justice League.
> 
> 96 million was a flop or disappointment for BvS considering the marketing and PR budget WB spent in China.





> First time I'm hearing of this myself. Katana and Enchantress were troublesome for their government IIRC.
> Hela has been mentioned but she was nothing like Enchantress whatsoever.


I never heard of that reason either. If someone can provide a legitimate source I will shut up. Otherwise I'm calling it bogus. I too have always heard it was because of Katana and Enchantress.




> It may have been all of those things. I swear I also heard that SS was banned in China because the Chinese interpreted it as a kind "Eff the Man" movie that encourages rebellion against the government.


That is probably true also.




> Well, for what it's worth, the story at the time was intended to be non-canon. The decision to make it canon came later and I'm pretty sure Moore didn't approve of that call.
> 
> He didn't think at the time that he was doing any permanent harm.


Didn't Moore even say he never intended that story to be canon?




> The Cyborg and Cass comparison is apples to oranges. Cyborg fits a disturbing trend in Western media that tends to neuter many black male characters. Cass being a kung fu expert is not much of a problem as she embraces her culture and better a Chinese person playing a kung fu hero than a *white person playing a kung fu hero*, otherwise you end up with the criticisms faced by the Iron Fist show's insistence of keeping Danny Rand white.


Chuck Norris

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

After Guardians of the Galaxy the source material argument is relevant in a Marvel/DC context. What matters is the creative team and their take/skill and their relationship with their producers.

So lesser known characters shouldn't be disqualified because they never got a shot at a solo. They should only be "disqualified" if no one wants to use them or have other characters they are better suited for.

If someone makes a better argument for Raven to be on the JL instead of Cyborg I'd go with that instead. I'd just place Cyborg in the better luck next time pile and move on to the next project. Appealing to tradition is fine but it shouldn't be holding back progress.

Danny's problem is less that he's good at kung-fu and even less that he was raised in an asian country and beat everybody there. His problem is that he is an old stereotype that they didn't bother doing anything with. Heck they even made him worse as a person and that's why that show is considered the first Marvel failure. Because they failed to make Danny a character people want to see continue in further adventures.

The stereotypes are hard to deal with but that didn't stop Black Panther or Luke cage from being successful. Hack one of the breakout characters of BP is the character M'Baku or Man-ape and everybody saw him as the most dated or stereotypical character.

----------


## Agent Z

> Um no. Much like there's more to Dick than just being the first Robin and Jason than being the Robin who died characterwise at the end of the day these characters need a marketing hook. Cassandra's marketing angle is her martial arts skill. That may well only 1% of her character( which it isnt) but thats her hook.
> 
> An Asian character whose hook is MA and her nemesis/mother is dragon lady isn't exactly breaking stereotypes.


If there is more to her character than being a martial artist (and there is) she is by definition not a stereotype. 

@seige When did I say Smallville using Silver Age stuff was a bad thing?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> @seige When did I say Smallville using Silver Age stuff was a bad thing?


Looking back over it again, it doesn't appear you did so sorry about that. At first glance, it looked like an extension of the "DC has a hard on for the silver age" discussion that was going on, so I was reacting to that.

----------


## Gaastra

Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.

Mark millar talks about the dcu.

Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134

----------


## vasir12

In a world where GotG is successful, nothing Millar said makes any sense. It's all in the execution and WB has been making some missteps. He also seems to have overlooked Wonder Woman's success.

----------


## BlackClaw

“Superman belongs to an America that doesn’t exist anymore” 

So does Captain America and everyone likes him just fine. As vasir said, the reason why Marvel has been running circles around DC is because the execution of their movies was better.

----------


## vasir12

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/aquam...-shame-a158127

Well, this looks promising. (all second hand though)

----------


## Gaastra

They said BVS was the greatest movie also in the test screenings and praised the last fantastic four movie so i'll wait and see on that however it's got a good cast and no syder so this one could be good.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.
> 
> Mark millar talks about the dcu.
> 
> Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134


Yeah, I don't agree with any of that. For someone who says he prefers DC characters, he seems to have a very outdated view of them. In my experience, anyone who espouses such monolithic views are never right. Its also pretty funny that he says that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are more focused on their powers than their characters, which is why Marvel is more successful, when there's at least two things wrong with that. Firstly, Wonder Woman's movie was actually as successful as any Marvel movie. Secondly, Batman not only has no powers, but has also had so much of his publication history focusing on his mental issues and, essentially, his PTSD from being orphaned right in front of his eyes. Forgive me, but...that sounds like spotlighting his character flaws.

----------


## Robotman

> “Superman belongs to an America that doesn’t exist anymore” 
> 
> So does Captain America and everyone likes him just fine. As vasir said, the reason why Marvel has been running circles around DC is because the execution of their movies was better.


Then why did he spend 10 years hounding WB to make his Superman movie. Just so he could see it fail because the character isn’t relevant anymore?

----------


## Jokerz79

I think the MCU is more successful for 3 key reasons IMO.

1: Likeable characters the MCU creates characters people want to spend time with and see again.

2: No expectations most Marvel characters are blank slates to the General Audience unlike the DC Trinity who people have preconceived ideas about and expectations for and when not met they reject them.

3: Studio interference from the WB and this isn't new WB has always done this the moment they see a film not meeting their expectations going back to Burton's Batman. Now Marvel Studios in contrast sets guidelines for their films but once they are met they allow their creators to put their own touches on the story and make the film they want. Almost all of the DCEU story problems go back to this issue.

----------


## Elmo

> Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.
> 
> Mark millar talks about the dcu.
> 
> Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134


It's really difficult for me to take Mark Millar seriously sometimes. I guess a statement like that is why you never see him writing for DC

----------


## Frontier

> Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.
> 
> Mark millar talks about the dcu.
> 
> Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134


Okay, a few things here: 

- Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman have both been adapted successfully to film in the past (Wonder Woman very recently in fact).

- Clark Kent is as central to Superman as Bruce Wayne is to Batman.

- There are tons of pieces of DC media and comics that emphasize the character as much as they do the heroes power. That isn't just a Marvel thing anymore.

- Green Lantern's yellow weakness isn't even really a thing anymore either.

- People seem to like Henry Cavill's Superman when he actually gets to play Superman, so maybe instead of acting like Superman doesn't work in the modern era we should just stop reinventing the wheel and actually do a proper Superman movie?

----------


## RedWhiteAndBlueSupes

> Yeah, I don't agree with any of that. For someone who says he prefers DC characters, he seems to have a very outdated view of them. In my experience, anyone who espouses such monolithic views are never right. Its also pretty funny that he says that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are more focused on their powers than their characters, which is why Marvel is more successful, when there's at least two things wrong with that. Firstly, Wonder Woman's movie was actually as successful as any Marvel movie. Secondly, Batman not only has no powers, but has also had so much of his publication history focusing on his mental issues and, essentially, his PTSD from being orphaned right in front of his eyes. Forgive me, but...that sounds like spotlighting his character flaws.


Oh man, that was painful to read. Needless to say I don't agree with anything he says. I personally have always liked the fact that the DC characters are...more "straight forward" in their heroics than Marvels. 




> Okay, a few things here:- People seem to like Henry Cavill's Superman when he actually gets to play Superman, so maybe instead of acting like Superman doesn't work in the modern era we should just stop reinventing the wheel and actually do a proper Superman movie?


yep, doesn't take a rocket scientist right? Superman is as relevant as today as people want him to be. Warner worried back in 1978 that the young free spirited baby boomers weren't going to take to Superman. Well they did. WB is just way to skiddish with him.

----------


## Carabas

> They said BVS was the greatest movie also in the test screenings and praised the last fantastic four movie so i'll wait and see on that however it's got a good cast and no syder so this one could be good.


It was probably not even the greatest movie that can be abbreviated as BVS.

----------


## Barbatos666

> If there is more to her character than being a martial artist (and there is) she is by definition not a stereotype. 
> 
> @seige When did I say Smallville using Silver Age stuff was a bad thing?


There's more to almost every character, Hulk is more than a big, angry brute. There's more Iron Man than a guy wearing a super suit. But at the end of the day thats who they are. This isn't a negative either, they've created this edge which makes them easily marketable.
Cass does nothing to bend or toss out stereotypes. Her primary gimmick is her martial arts. Her ability to defeat Batman and Batman level fighters is her greatest asset, thats her cool factor.No point in denying that.

So when (if) WB will use her, that fighting skill will be her edge. So an Asian martial arts character whose mother and best villain is an evil dragon lady is breaking stereotypes how exactly? And why do you keep assuming as if everyone will be familiar with Cass to know she's more than how she will potentially be marketed.

But this is getting tedious, I just dont think Cass will be this big hit among Asian audiences as was claimed previously. She could be a big deal in America but I disagree with the notion that she's going to sweep the Asian (Chinese box office).

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Okay, a few things here: 
> 
> - Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman have both been adapted successfully to film in the past (Wonder Woman very recently in fact).
> 
> - Clark Kent is as central to Superman as Bruce Wayne is to Batman.
> 
> - There are tons of pieces of DC media and comics that emphasize the character as much as they do the heroes power. That isn't just a Marvel thing anymore.
> 
> - Green Lantern's yellow weakness isn't even really a thing anymore either.
> ...


To be fair, the last unequivocally successful attempt at a Superman movie was made 30 years ago, and there's been several failed attempts by very different filmmakers since then. 

I honestly think that Millar has a point here, not in that it's impossible to adapt traditional DC characters into good films, but maybe in that it's a mistake to focus on the personal struggles of characters like Hal Jordan and Clark Kent when what's most exciting about them is the things they can do and the world they inhabit.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.
> 
> Mark millar talks about the dcu.
> 
> Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134


I think he's talking absolute rubbish, especially for someone that claims to ultimately prefer DC's characters over Marvel's. I think he was deliberately looking to get a reaction out of people.

There are genuine reasons that Marvel's films have been more successful, this has nothing to do with it.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> - People seem to like Henry Cavill's Superman when he actually gets to play Superman, so maybe instead of acting like Superman doesn't work in the modern era we should just stop reinventing the wheel and actually do a proper Superman movie?





> yep, doesn't take a rocket scientist right? Superman is as relevant as today as people want him to be. Warner worried back in 1978 that the young free spirited baby boomers weren't going to take to Superman. Well they did. WB is just way to skiddish with him.


Tyler Hoechlin's Superman on Supergirl was also well received.  There were a lot of people that liked him more than the DCEU Superman. About the only ones that didn't like him were the ones that want Superman to look
like a muscle bound freak. In fact there were people that became irate when Supergirl defeated Superman, made all sorts of excuses why Superman should have won.  If people didn't like Superman they wouldn't
care who he got beat by.




> It was probably not even the greatest movie that can be abbreviated as BVS.


I always abbreviate it as BvS because it v is small in Batman v Superman.




> To be fair, the last unequivocally successful attempt at a Superman movie was made 30 years ago, and there's been several failed attempts by very different filmmakers since then. 
> 
> I honestly think that Millar has a point here, not in that it's impossible to adapt traditional DC characters into good films, but maybe in that it's a mistake to focus on the personal struggles of characters like Hal Jordan and Clark Kent when what's most exciting about them is the things they can do and the world they inhabit.


And yet Lois & Clark was successful until ABC started screwing with the day and time, Smallville lasted 10 season, and Supergirl is one of the CW's highest rated and 2nd most watched shows.
All of them focused on the personal struggles of the character first and what they could do as a side note.  It's not Superman. It's the film makers that are clueless.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.
> 
> Mark millar talks about the dcu.
> 
> Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134


I posted an answer there. I would say this here. He is not entirely wrong. Marvel characters are generally speaking more cinematic then DC. But being comparatively more cinematic isn't enough. Wolverine is very cinematic. None can argue against this. But he appeared in both Logan and X-Men Origins: Wolverine. One is arguably a masterpiece while another a dumpster fire. Its about execution. That's where DC falters and Marvel succeeds in films.

Even his statements like DC characters being more like power sets then actual characters is hopelessly outdated. It may have been true in somewhere around early 60s. But its not the case now. Ever since Marvel arrived with deeper characters with Kirby, Lee and Co. their competition learnt it over time and evolved. 

I don't agree about Superman too. Wonder Woman had an enormous success right now. Okay an argument can be made that Reeve's Superman is not such a deep character. But look at Man of Steel. Here is wonderful character work. He's a kid who grows up to know that not only is he not his parents son but he is not even human and who's an alien. He has to try to live up to two father figures who are giving him opposite ideals to lead up to. His character is really fleshed out. 

Its most timely and shall work in this time and age if Reeve Superman does not work. Fault lied in their execution. But even then it was quite successful. Critics and fans might have been divided it was quite successful at the box office. It did not set it on fire but did reasonably well for an origin film. There problems really increased when they tried to rush and meet MCU. Instead of letting fans slowly grow to like it as audiences (and audiences did like it. Cinemascore A-, and fine box office) they used Superman to start a DCEU and Justice League. In the process they magnified the flaws from the first film. And we know what happened.

In the hands of a good storyteller like Patty Jenkins and a good team, Wonder Woman got enormous success. That film was successful only due to Jenkins. Credit to others working on it too. So, why can't DC characters work in the hands of similarly talented storytellers?

----------


## Confuzzled

Lol what a load of BS, especially about Superman representing "20th Century America" and how his time has passed. He's as relevant as he ever was now when the very livelihoods of American Dreamers are being threatened. I mean, even _Supergirl_ with its CW-y writing gets it.

And I just don't get the nonsense about how everyone other than Batman is not cinematic when Wonder Woman destroyed last summer's box office and was such a needed symbol of hope for women when they needed her the most. Her success was what Disney/Marvel based Black Panther's "inspiration" and "empowerment" themed marketing on and look how BP is doing at the BO.

Unfortunately, if a so called "DC fan" from the comics industry has this mindset, then can we blame Hollywood execs who aren't as familiar with the characters and their rich mythos?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Marvel characters are generally speaking more cinematic then DC.


How? Some of the biggest franchises or movies like Avatar and Lord of the Rings/Hobbit are heavily fantasy or sci-fi based, set in completely different worlds like Wonder Woman and Aquaman's stories have potential for. Teen Titans in the 80's were as popular and had as thematic heft as Marvel's most popular series The New Mutants. The appeal of Harry Potter is not incredibly different from the appeal of Shazam (though something like Mystik U is an even better analogy). DC's also had more epic romances than Marvel in Superman/Lois, Wonder Woman/Steve Trevor, Batman/Catwoman, Aquaman/Mera, Mister Miracle/Big Barda to name a few. And speaking of "DC is not about character", why does he think the other Bat characters like Harley Quinn, Batgirl etc. became so popular, especially among women?

I don't want to come across as overtly aggressive but I don't know why DC fans buy into that "DC characters aren't generally as cinematic" narrative.

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## Johnny

> How? Some of the biggest franchises or movies like Avatar and Lord of the Rings/Hobbit are heavily fantasy or sci-fi based, set in completely different worlds like Wonder Woman and Aquaman's stories have potential for. Teen Titans in the 80's were as popular and had as thematic heft as Marvel's most popular series The New Mutants. The appeal of Harry Potter is not incredibly different from the appeal of Shazam (though something like Mystik U is an even better analogy). DC's also had more epic romances than Marvel in Superman/Lois, Wonder Woman/Steve Trevor, Batman/Catwoman, Aquaman/Mera, Mister Miracle/Big Barda to name a few. And speaking of "DC is not about character", why does he think the other Bat characters like Harley Quinn, Batgirl etc. became so popular, especially among women?
> 
> I don't want to come across as overtly aggressive but *I don't know why DC fans buy into that "DC characters aren't generally as cinematic" narrative.*


Great post. I think it may partially be due to the notion of DC characters not being as "relatable" as Marvel's. The whole "modern Gods" thing.

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## The Darknight Detective

> Great post. I think it may partially be due to the notion of DC characters not being as "relatable" as Marvel's. The whole "modern Gods" thing.


I have disliked and disagreed with that argument for over 40 years now myself.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Great post. *I think it may partially be due to the notion of DC characters not being as "relatable" as Marvel's. The whole "modern Gods" thing.*


Maybe it's just me, but I think "aspirational figures" can tend to be more universal or as universal and appealing as "relatable figures". Isn't that precisely why Wonder Woman and Black Panther (the most DC-esque "modern god" type Marvel superhero IMO) are now the two biggest superhero origin films of all time?

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## vasir12

I always found that funny cause people will be shown all the contrary to that and STILL believe it. Literally all it is, is WB making bad decisions. One of the most basic points of writing is that people care about characters first. The fact that people like the CW shows and the dc animated movies and live actions movies means that DC has characters that people like just as much as Marvel.

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## Confuzzled

> I always found that funny cause people will be shown all the contrary to that and STILL believe it. Literally all it is, is WB making bad decisions. One of the most basic points of writing is that people care about characters first. The fact that people like the CW shows and the dc animated movies and live actions movies means that DC has characters that people like just as much as Marvel.


Heck, the fact that it took _five_ DCEU films and _four_ badly reviewed films for the DCEU to have its first bomb in Justice League shows that people actually cared more about DC characters initially and were willing to give them several chances. No way Iron Man, Captain America and Thor fronted MCU would have received so many chances if their initial films had been this poorly received by critics and been as divisive among audiences.

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## Johnny

> I have disliked and disagreed with that argument for over 40 years now myself.


I don't agree with it either, but I still see it thrown around rather often, hence noting it's just a notion.

----------


## Soubhagya

> How? Some of the biggest franchises or movies like Avatar and Lord of the Rings/Hobbit are heavily fantasy or sci-fi based, set in completely different worlds like Wonder Woman and Aquaman's stories have potential for. Teen Titans in the 80's were as popular and had as thematic heft as Marvel's most popular series The New Mutants. The appeal of Harry Potter is not incredibly different from the appeal of Shazam (though something like Mystik U is an even better analogy). DC's also had more epic romances than Marvel in Superman/Lois, Wonder Woman/Steve Trevor, Batman/Catwoman, Aquaman/Mera, Mister Miracle/Big Barda to name a few. And speaking of "DC is not about character", why does he think the other Bat characters like Harley Quinn, Batgirl etc. became so popular, especially among women?
> 
> I don't want to come across as overtly aggressive but I don't know why DC fans buy into that "DC characters aren't generally as cinematic" narrative.


This is an interesting discussion. Who knows you may prove me wrong. 

I must admit i am a pretty new to comics. So, i have read some stuff on the internet and gave it some thought. Let us say DC characters weren't so fleshed when they started. I am speaking about early 60s and before that. Marvel comes and makes these characters whose private lives are just as important as their adventures. 

DC evolves with time. The characters themselves become evolved. Tell that to a fan of Post Crisis Superman. His private kife was just as important as his adventures. (Which is the very reason why Mark Millar does not like Superman Post COIE and hasn't read Superman in decades). 



There are some inherent contradictions in DC because they changed into something different from them. I can't put it exactly. Read this article. This kind of thinking that DC is somehow less then Marvel is not just of readers. Its in DC too. Which comes down to us. 

http://comicsalliance.com/dc-comics-...omics-history/

Read this and correct me please. I am not fully sure about Marvel being more cinematic. But DC characters are surely cinematic. My post was actually about that.

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## Elmo

Mark Millar is strictly a businessman whose only interest is selling the rights of his properties to film studios and making tons of money. He's had some good runs in the past and his stuff is certainly engrossing but we shouldn't be entertaining any opinion he has on a comic book character. He only cares about money and all of his arguments are based on profitability

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## The Darknight Detective

> I don't agree with it either, but I still see it thrown around rather often, hence noting it's just a notion.


I know, Johnny. It's like when people talk about this huge difference in the comics between Marvel and DC in regard to characterization, continuity, etc. as if it were still the '60s. Some mantras are just too hard to go away, I guess.

----------


## Confuzzled

> This is an interesting discussion. Who knows you may prove me wrong. 
> 
> I must admit i am a pretty new to comics. So, i have read some stuff on the internet and gave it some thought. Let us say DC characters weren't so fleshed when they started. I am speaking about early 60s and before that. Marvel comes and makes these characters whose private lives are just as important as their adventures. 
> 
> DC evolves with time. The characters themselves become evolved. Tell that to a fan of Post Crisis Superman. His private kife was just as important as his adventures. (Which is the very reason why Mark Millar does not like Superman Post COIE and hasn't read Superman in decades). 
> 
> There are some inherent contradictions in DC because they changed into something different from them. I can't put it exactly. Read this article. This kind of thinking that DC is somehow less then Marvel is not just of readers. Its in DC too. Which comes down to us. 
> 
> http://comicsalliance.com/dc-comics-...omics-history/
> ...


Anything that has been around for as long as DC's marquee characters have will tend to go through changes. Marvel characters other than Captain America had the benefit of the DC archetypes already existing for decades beforehand, so it was easier for Marvel superheroes to be deconstructions of DC superheroes. But those concepts had to exist for Marvel to work off of, otherwise their characters wouldn't have had the same kind of impact.

And I think DC characters didn't really change from their original selves all that much. The core themes almost all of them represented were sound and ever relevant from the get go, if not _as fleshed out_. Btw I have read that Sims article before. And while stuff like _New Teen Titans_ was definitely an answer to the success of the _X-Men_, they combined the mutants' team dynamics with the coming of age themes of Spider-Man's earliest stories, to create something new and exciting altogether, which in turn inspired _The New Mutants_, so that writer saying "they were playing catch-up to the X-Men" is an incredibly incomplete picture.* I also think NTT is many ways were a natural next step in the evolution of DC's legacy, not really an abrupt change into "something else".

*This is slightly besides the point but I started caring a _lot_ less for Chris Sims' opinions once I found out he bullied and harassed a female creator online to the point of her seeking out professional therapy to recover from it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Mark Millar is strictly a businessman whose only interest is selling the rights of his properties to film studios and making tons of money. He's had some good runs in the past and his stuff is certainly engrossing but we shouldn't be entertaining any opinion he has on a comic book character. He only cares about money and all of his arguments are based on profitability


Not to mention when Star Wars Episode 7 outgrossed all superhero films at the box office, he was quick to jump on the bandwagon of the superhero genre dying out altogether to give way to the space opera genre (this was around the same time he was peddling his own space opera project _Empress_). Now that Black Panther is looking to outgross the likes of Star Wars Episode 8, he's changed his tune a little to bagging on just DC characters instead of the entire genre.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Not to mention when Star Wars Episode 7 outgrossed all superhero films at the box office, he was quick to jump on the bandwagon of the superhero genre dying out altogether to give way to the space opera genre (this was around the same time he was peddling his own space opera project _Empress_). Now that Black Panther is looking to outgross the likes of Star Wars Episode 8, he's changed his tune a little to bagging on just DC characters instead of the entire genre.


Which begs the question of when DC has their next huge hit, who will he go after? He was strangely silent when Wonder Woman came out last year.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> They said BVS was the greatest movie also in the test screenings and praised the last fantastic four movie so i'll wait and see on that however it's got a good cast and no syder so this one could be good.


It won't make as much as BvS but I do have far more faith in Wan than I do in Snyder.




> I think the MCU is more successful for 3 key reasons IMO.
> 
> 1: Likeable characters the MCU creates characters people want to spend time with and see again.
> 
> 2: No expectations most Marvel characters are blank slates to the General Audience unlike the DC Trinity who people have preconceived ideas about and expectations for and when not met they reject them.


Marvel I think has made better castings.  Their actors have wanted to stay on.  Marvel hasn't had anything like the Batfleck situation.  WB has also doubled down on Eisenberg as Luthor which I think is a huge mistake.   They also don't have directors/writers dropping out left and right.  Their talent just seems more committed to the task.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Black Panther in it's SECOND  weekend made more than Justice League's FIRST weekend. This is insane.  This is surreal.  I never imagined I live in a world where the trinity are the underdogs(BP second weekend  made more than WW's first weekend).  How could this happen?  Has BvS damage the brand this much?

----------


## Soubhagya

> Anything that has been around for as long as DC's marquee characters have will tend to go through changes. Marvel characters other than Captain America had the benefit of the DC archetypes already existing for decades beforehand, so it was easier for Marvel superheroes to be deconstructions of DC superheroes. But those concepts had to exist for Marvel to work off of, otherwise their characters wouldn't have had the same kind of impact.
> 
> And I think DC characters didn't really change from their original selves all that much. The core themes almost all of them represented were sound and ever relevant from the get go, if not _as fleshed out_. Btw I have read that Sims article before. And while stuff like _New Teen Titans_ was definitely an answer to the success of the _X-Men_, they combined the mutants' team dynamics with the coming of age themes of Spider-Man's earliest stories, to create something new and exciting altogether, which in turn inspired _The New Mutants_, so that writer saying "they were playing catch-up to the X-Men" is an incredibly incomplete picture.* I also think NTT is many ways were a natural next step in the evolution of DC's legacy, not really an abrupt change into "something else".
> 
> *This is slightly besides the point but I started caring a _lot_ less for Chris Sims' opinions once I found out he bullied and harassed a female creator online to the point of her seeking out professional therapy to recover from it.


I try to separate the art and the artist. Whatever the person he is it's undeniable that he is a fantastic writer on the subject of comics. He did apologize after being called out. I say its too little too late. And if anyone cares less for him i can't deny that. I may never be able to get around watching Polanski's films. That man is reprehensible and his crimes are vicious and he remains unpunished. While his films are some of the all time greats. 

His opinions here are quite correct. DC has tried to ape Marvel. Quite understandably so. One needs to evolve to adapt and succeed. So, Millar's words are at least a couple of decades too late. And its possible that your reply to Elmo is correct. 

I posted about his views on 'Marvelization' of Superman. That's a simplistic explanation. Superman was still Superman of old. It was just another step in the characters evolution just as the early 70s tried to be more serious stories. The relevancy period of DC comics where they tried to tackle socially relevant topics. Its just that the people in charge were from Marvel and took what worked at Marvel and took him to the next step. Its the reboot which angered the fans actually. Just as New 52 angered long time fans because it was abrupt. 

If its done without fanfare as Superman from Golden Age evolved into Superman of Silver Age there wouldn't be this kind of resentment. 


After moving around a lot let me get to the point. He said Superman was 'Marvelized'. So he is not reading it. And yet says Superman was perhaps of 20th Century because he is not cinematic as Marvel characters. What's his opinion actually? 

And even then its just an opinion. Granted by a talented writer. But opinion nonetheless. In the hands of the right storyteller in this case the director and the writers one can make anything work. Rockeet Racoon or Groot were not deep characters i think. (I don't know i haven't read them. Especially not before the first Guardians film). But look how well GoTG films worked.

And people care for DC characters. I won't be a fan of DC if i did not find them more interesting. There has to be something in them which makes them work in comics. Marvel's approach is like this. There is something about these characters that's why they have worked in comics for decades. So, they don't run away from the source. They aren't ashamed of their origins.

----------


## Frontier

> Marvel I think has made better castings.  Their actors have wanted to stay on.  Marvel hasn't had anything like the Batfleck situation.  WB has also doubled down on Eisenberg as Luthor which I think is a huge mistake.   They also don't have directors/writers dropping out left and right.  Their talent just seems more committed to the task.


You get some cases of actors who are unhappy or unsatisfied with working on Marvel movies (Natalie Portman and I think a few villain actors that I can think of) though as a whole Marvel Studios seems to be able to keep their leading men and ladies happy, or sweeten the deal in the case of those who sometimes express misgivings about continuing on for more movies.



> Black Panther in it's SECOND  weekend made more than Justice League's FIRST weekend. This is insane.  This is surreal.  I never imagined I live in a world where the trinity are the underdogs(BP second weekend  made more than WW's first weekend).  How could this happen?  Has BvS damage the brand this much?


I hope _Aquaman_ isn't impacted at all by the possible implications of _Justice League's_ poor performance.

----------


## The True Detective

> Black Panther in it's SECOND  weekend made more than Justice League's FIRST weekend. This is insane.  This is surreal.  I never imagined I live in a world where the trinity are the underdogs(BP second weekend  made more than WW's first weekend).  How could this happen?  Has BvS damage the brand this much?


Black Panther's 2nd week is set to be higher than Civil War and The Last Jedi's 2nd weekends and those actually got good reviews. It's less about JL doing poorly and more about BP being a cultural phenomenon. People keep bringing up Black Panther doing better than JL when it's doing bigger numbers than every MCU movie even the Avengers. But since it doesn't fit the anti DC narrative people want everyone ignores it.

----------


## Barbatos666

So if a film performs better than JL its a cultural phenemenon. If worse then JL is a success. Ok can we just admit that JL was a flop and not just in comparison to other films. It was a massive flop on its own.

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## Soubhagya

> Black Panther's 2nd week is set to be higher than Civil War and The Last Jedi's 2nd weekends and those actually got good reviews. It's less about JL doing poorly and more about BP being a cultural phenomenon. People keep bringing up Black Panther doing better than JL when it's doing bigger numbers than every MCU movie even the Avengers. But since it doesn't fit the anti DC narrative people want everyone ignores it.


Yes its a problematic argument. I heard the same thing about TLJ. It earned 220 million in its opening weekend. So we shall reboot the DCEU. But then shall we reboot Avengers too? It made less then TLJ. 

By the way i do think they shall reboot. Because JL made less in its opening weekend then Wonder Woman. Indicating a downward trajectory which could not be salvaged by the phenomenal success of Wonder Woman. That's just my opinion based on the numbers.

Earning back that interest is not an easy job. They need to be in a roll. Opening weekend almost halved from BvS to JL. Indicating decreasing enthusiasm by the audience. BP is huge because it comes off the successful run of MCU while being a cultural phenomenon and being a crowd pleaser.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Black Panther's 2nd week is set to be higher than Civil War and The Last Jedi's 2nd weekends and those actually got good reviews. It's less about JL doing poorly and more about BP being a cultural phenomenon. People keep bringing up Black Panther doing better than JL when it's doing bigger numbers than every MCU movie even the Avengers. But since it doesn't fit the anti DC narrative people want everyone ignores it.





> So if a film performs better than JL its a cultural phenemenon. If worse then JL is a success. Ok can we just admit that JL was a flop and not just in comparison to other films. It was a massive flop on its own.


Or maybe every movie is a flop compared to Black Panther.

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## Jokerz79

> Or maybe every movie is a flop compared to Black Panther.


Ok forget Black Panther The Justice League DC's Première Team made less than Dr. Strange it flopped.

----------


## ross61

Name recognition means shit nowadays.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Name recognition means shit nowadays.


You'd don't think the MCU label doesn't help their films at this point? If brand recognition meant nothing Hollywood wouldn't be rebooting ever franchise they can get their hands on.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Black Panther in it's SECOND  weekend made more than Justice League's FIRST weekend. This is insane.  This is surreal.  I never imagined I live in a world where the trinity are the underdogs(BP second weekend  made more than WW's first weekend).  How could this happen?  Has BvS damage the brand this much?


BvS did damage the brand a lot and it showed because no one was excited to see JL opening weekend even though it received better reviews than BvS.  




> You get some cases of actors who are unhappy or unsatisfied with working on Marvel movies (Natalie Portman and I think a few villain actors that I can think of) though as a whole Marvel Studios seems to be able to keep their leading men and ladies happy, or sweeten the deal in the case of those who sometimes express misgivings about continuing on for more movies.
> 
> I hope _Aquaman_ isn't impacted at all by the possible implications of _Justice League's_ poor performance.


I think Aquaman has to be a good movie but with realistic expectations in terms of box office.  Aquaman has to be first page of this chapter of the DCEU but I think it is a little unrealistic to think that it won't be affected by the previous chapters in the DCEU.  I'm glad to hear that Game Night is getting good reviews so maybe those directors can do Flashpoint justice.  




> By the way i do think they shall reboot. Because JL made less in its opening weekend then Wonder Woman. Indicating a downward trajectory which could not be salvaged by the phenomenal success of Wonder Woman. That's just my opinion based on the numbers.
> 
> Earning back that interest is not an easy job. They need to be in a roll. Opening weekend almost halved from BvS to JL. Indicating decreasing enthusiasm by the audience. BP is huge because it comes off the successful run of MCU while being a cultural phenomenon and being a crowd pleaser.


Rebooting isn't even an option because of Gal as Wonder Woman.  We just have to hope that new writers and directors can right the ship.  Outside of Wonder Woman we still have yet to see if Snyder's casting choices were the right ones.  We'll see with Aquaman and Flash... and then see what happens with the new Batman.  




> Ok forget Black Panther The Justice League DC's Première Team made less than Dr. Strange it flopped.


Yeah that is a simpler way to put it.

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## FlashEarthOne

> You'd don't think the MCU label doesn't help their films at this point? If brand recognition meant nothing Hollywood wouldn't be rebooting ever franchise they can get their hands on.


Exactly.  Marvel IS a brand name.

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## Barbatos666

> Ok forget Black Panther The Justice League DC's Première Team made less than Dr. Strange it flopped.


And both Guardians and 2 Cap films and the last Thor and is almost equaled by Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 (both of which were the worst received Marvel films and the former was before MCU became a major brand).

I guess everything is a cultural phenomenon next to DCEU films lol.

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## Carabas

> Name recognition means shit nowadays.


Name recognition means a lot nowadays. People remembered those names from Dawn Of Justice and were like "hell no, never again."

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## Jokerz79

> And both Guardians and 2 Cap films and the last Thor and is almost equaled by Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 (both of which were the worst received Marvel films and the former was before MCU became a major brand).
> 
> I guess everything is a cultural phenomenon next to DCEU films lol.


Iron Man 2 did 623.90 Million and Thor the Dark World did 644.60.

Captain America the Winter Soldier did 714.30 million and Civil War did 1.15 Billion.

Guardians of the Galaxy did 773.30 million and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 did 863.80 Million

Thor Ragnarok did 853.60 Million 

The only film to do less than Iron Man 2 or Thor the Dark World was Ant-Man which did 519.30 million which for the first Ant-Man movie isn't bad. All the other Marvel films did better then those two films and every film series had each entry do better than the previous except Age of Ultron which did make over a Billion just not as much as the first Avengers. 

Marvel isn't making masterpieces IMO I always compare them to old school Bond films just fun movies with some good ones, some ok ones, and a few great ones for their genre. You can love them or hate them but no one can deny Marvel's success. The DCEU isn't a failure as a whole but more then less of their films haven't met studio expectations and Justice League barely broke even given it's budget and other cost. I can see why it's frustrating to see Marvel take B and C list characters and make successful franchises out of them and WB are literally working with the heroes who arguably built the genre and seem stuck in the mud.

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## Osiris-Rex

> Iron Man 2 did 623.90 Million and Thor the Dark World did 644.60.
> 
> Captain America the Winter Soldier did 714.30 million and Civil War did 1.15 Billion.
> 
> Guardians of the Galaxy did 773.30 million and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 did 863.80 Million
> 
> Thor Ragnarok did 853.60 Million 
> 
> The only film to do less than Iron Man 2 or Thor the Dark World was Ant-Man which did 519.30 million which for the first Ant-Man movie isn't bad. All the other Marvel films did better then those two films and every film series had each entry do better than the previous except Age of Ultron which did make over a Billion just not as much as the first Avengers. 
> ...


The problem with Justice League was all the reshoots bloated its budget.   If it didn't need the reshoots it probably would have only cost around $250 million, which was about what Man of Steel cost.
And it earned about as much as Man of Steel, Man of Steel was considered profitable, so Justice League would have been profitable too.

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## Jokerz79

> The problem with Justice League was all the reshoots bloated its budget.   If it didn't need the reshoots it probably would have only cost around $250 million, which was about what Man of Steel cost.
> And it earned about as much as Man of Steel, Man of Steel was considered profitable, so Justice League would have been profitable too.


It still would had been considered a failure at WB just not as bad this was suppose to a billion dollar movie. Studios are like hardcore gambles they can win gamble all night and win 10 grand and they won't be happy because if they had gambled more each hand they'd won more they don't look at what they won but what they didn't. Unless Justice League made a billion or something at least close it would had always been disappointing to WB.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I try to separate the art and the artist. Whatever the person he is it's undeniable that he is a fantastic writer on the subject of comics. He did apologize after being called out. I say its too little too late. And if anyone cares less for him i can't deny that. I may never be able to get around watching Polanski's films. That man is reprehensible and his crimes are vicious and he remains unpunished. While his films are some of the all time greats. 
> 
> His opinions here are quite correct. DC has tried to ape Marvel. Quite understandably so. One needs to evolve to adapt and succeed. So, Millar's words are at least a couple of decades too late. And its possible that your reply to Elmo is correct. 
> 
> I posted about his views on 'Marvelization' of Superman. That's a simplistic explanation. Superman was still Superman of old. It was just another step in the characters evolution just as the early 70s tried to be more serious stories. The relevancy period of DC comics where they tried to tackle socially relevant topics. Its just that the people in charge were from Marvel and took what worked at Marvel and took him to the next step. Its the reboot which angered the fans actually. Just as New 52 angered long time fans because it was abrupt. 
> 
> If its done without fanfare as Superman from Golden Age evolved into Superman of Silver Age there wouldn't be this kind of resentment.


I mean, he harassed that lady because he didn't like a Punisher story she had written for Marvel. That's something that cannot be brushed under "personal issues". That's an industry problem that he was a part of and which seriously questions his so called wisdom and judgement on comic books, the industry and the industry's history. So in a way, even if the crime wasn't as heinous as Polanski's, it becomes even harder to separate that incident from his professional output than it is with Polanski and his films because it is such a direct violation of the field he claims to be an expert in. And he had to apologize at the time to minimize the fallout as he just got a Marvel gig at the time. 

And is his knowledge really undeniable though? I pointed out how his example of NTT blatantly copying X-Men was an oversimplification and doesn't provide the full picture of how NTT in turn inspired the creation of The New Mutants. BOTH Marvel and DC have been "aping" each other. Winter Soldier, Necrosha, the Battle Worlds of Secret Wars etc. are some examples from Marvel's side. DC may have started tackling socially relevant themes ala Marvel but did those strategies really fly in the face of the core fundamentals represented by their characters and their stories? Roy doing drugs didn't automatically make Green Arrow less heroic. Hence why the transition from Golden Age to Silver Age felt more smoother, not just because of less fanfare (and the point of the New 52 was to experiment with the DC characters in a way Post-Crisis did). Difference being, Post-Crisis experimentations proved to be successful for the most part as they added layers to each marquee character, making them more dynamic and versatile, unlike the New 52 making some of them near unrecognisable.

----------


## Agent Z

> I mean, he harassed that lady because he didn't like a Punisher story she had written for Marvel. That's something that cannot be brushed under "personal issues". That's an industry problem that he was a part of and which seriously questions his so called wisdom and judgement on comic books, the industry and the industry's history. So in a way, even if the crime wasn't as heinous as Polanski's, it becomes even harder to separate that incident from his professional output than it is with Polanski and his films because it is such a direct violation of the field he claims to be an expert in. And he had to apologize at the time to minimize the fallout as he just got a Marvel gig at the time. 
> 
> And is his knowledge really undeniable though? I pointed out how his example of NTT blatantly copying X-Men was an oversimplification and doesn't provide the full picture of how NTT in turn inspired the creation of The New Mutants. BOTH Marvel and DC have been "aping" each other. *Winter Soldier, Necrosha, the Battle Worlds of Secret Wars etc. are some examples from Marvel's side.* DC may have started tackling socially relevant themes ala Marvel but did those strategies really fly in the face of the core fundamentals represented by their characters and their stories? Roy doing drugs didn't automatically make Green Arrow less heroic. Hence why the transition from Golden Age to Silver Age felt more smoother, not just because of less fanfare (and the point of the New 52 was to experiment with the DC characters in a way Post-Crisis did). Difference being, Post-Crisis experimentations proved to be successful for the most part as they added layers to each marquee character, making them more dynamic and versatile, unlike the New 52 making some of them near unrecognisable.


Sorry could you explain how these were Marvel aping DC please?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Marvel I think has made better castings.  Their actors have wanted to stay on.  Marvel hasn't had anything like the Batfleck situation.  WB has also doubled down on Eisenberg as Luthor which I think is a huge mistake.   They also don't have directors/writers dropping out left and right.  Their talent just seems more committed to the task.


Eisenberg isn't an example of bad casting, its an example of bad writing. Snyder/Terrio were obviously trying to cast Lex by way of Mark Zuckerberg, not classic Lex. 

And I think the marvel films being generally better received helps the actors stay on. Hopefully AQ and WW2 start to swing that.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Eisenberg isn't an example of bad casting, its an example of bad writing. Snyder/Terrio were obviously trying to cast Lex by way of Mark Zuckerberg, not classic Lex.


True and he *still* was closer to classic Lex from the comics than Gene Hackman ever was beyond physically.  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

> Sorry could you explain how these were Marvel aping DC please?


They were direct rip-offs of Red Hood, Blackest Night and Multiverse respectively.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It still would had been considered a failure at WB just not as bad this was suppose to a billion dollar movie. Studios are like hardcore gambles they can win gamble all night and win 10 grand and they won't be happy because if they had gambled more each hand they'd won more they don't look at what they won but what they didn't. Unless Justice League made a billion or something at least close it would had always been disappointing to WB.


No one at Warner Bros. ever expected Justice League to make $1 billion.  Anyone that would have would have ended up in a padded cell. Best case scenario would have been something like Wonder Woman money.




> True and he *still* was closer to classic Lex from the comics than Gene Hackman ever was beyond physically.


Gene's Lex was more comic relief.  I think we were supposed to take Eisenberg's Lex seriously instead of him being even goofier than Gene's Lex. Basically what happened was he was a bad version of Joker.
Ironically Jared Leto's Joke was a bad version of Lex Luthor.  Perhaps they should have switched roles, Leto as Lex and Eisenberg as Joker.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Gene's Lex was more comic relief.  I think we were supposed to take Eisenberg's Lex seriously instead of him being even goofier than Gene's Lex. Basically what happened was he was a bad version of Joker.
> Ironically Jared Leto's Joke was a bad version of Lex Luthor.  Perhaps they should have switched roles, Leto as Lex and Eisenberg as Joker.


Leto would have still been painfully annoying.

Also, I don't think ZuckerLex was supposed to be as serious as all that.

----------


## Barbatos666

> They were direct rip-offs of Red Hood, Blackest Night and Multiverse respectively.


Red Hood and Bucky returned simultaneously. I really think that was a coincidence. Or maybe editors jumped from one company to other taking ideas that were discussed.

----------


## Frontier

> Eisenberg isn't an example of bad casting, its an example of bad writing. Snyder/Terrio were obviously trying to cast Lex by way of Mark Zuckerberg, not classic Lex. 
> 
> And I think the marvel films being generally better received helps the actors stay on. Hopefully AQ and WW2 start to swing that.


I think Eisenberg as Lex was always going to be an unconventional choice for the character, and difficult for fans to latch onto, no matter how you wrote him. 

Even if you take his hair away and put him in a suit, he doesn't really sound like Luthor to me.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Leto would have still been painfully annoying.
> 
> Also, I don't think ZuckerLex was supposed to be as serious as all that.


I saw glimmers of Leto making a great Lex. His Joker was a much better planner and had more of a sense of authority, getting his henchmen to do his bidding. Scarier too.

----------


## Jokerz79

> No one at Warner Bros. ever expected Justice League to make $1 billion.  Anyone that would have would have ended up in a padded cell. Best case scenario would have been something like Wonder Woman money.
> 
> 
> 
> Gene's Lex was more comic relief.  I think we were supposed to take Eisenberg's Lex seriously instead of him being even goofier than Gene's Lex. Basically what happened was he was a bad version of Joker.
> Ironically Jared Leto's Joke was a bad version of Lex Luthor.  Perhaps they should have switched roles, Leto as Lex and Eisenberg as Joker.


Sorry but Justice League was WB's answer to Avengers they were most definitely hoping to make a billion. The MCU has 4 films that made over a billion 5 probably now with Black Panther and number 6 will likely be Infinity War. You don't think WB wanted one movie to do that and that wasn't their endgame and Justice League wasn't their best chance?

----------


## Barbatos666

After BVS I expect they hoped it would make as much as possible.

I think JL is a palette cleanser, that's why WB released it. They didn't care about a butchered movie as long as it was fun, just to tell the audience that they were moving away from Snyder's style. Something was going to bear the brunt of BVS so JL was the sacrificial lamb. BVS was the make and break film. Had that film achieved Avengers level reception like I believe they wanted and certainly it was possible then DCEU would have been in a different playing field. But it ended up being a break film which killed JL.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think Eisenberg as Lex was always going to be an unconventional choice for the character, and difficult for fans to latch onto, no matter how you wrote him. 
> 
> Even if you take his hair away and put him in a suit, he doesn't really sound like Luthor to me.


My point is that character precedes casting. I think Eisenberg was casted for the specific spin (young, silicon valleyish) on Lex we got in BvS. Had the script/story alluded to a more standard Lex Luthor I don't think Eisenberg would have gotten the part to begin with.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I mean, he harassed that lady because he didn't like a Punisher story she had written for Marvel. That's something that cannot be brushed under "personal issues". That's an industry problem that he was a part of and which seriously questions his so called wisdom and judgement on comic books, the industry and the industry's history. So in a way, even if the crime wasn't as heinous as Polanski's, it becomes even harder to separate that incident from his professional output than it is with Polanski and his films because it is such a direct violation of the field he claims to be an expert in. And he had to apologize at the time to minimize the fallout as he just got a Marvel gig at the time. 
> 
> And is his knowledge really undeniable though? I pointed out how his example of NTT blatantly copying X-Men was an oversimplification and doesn't provide the full picture of how NTT in turn inspired the creation of The New Mutants. BOTH Marvel and DC have been "aping" each other. Winter Soldier, Necrosha, the Battle Worlds of Secret Wars etc. are some examples from Marvel's side. DC may have started tackling socially relevant themes ala Marvel but did those strategies really fly in the face of the core fundamentals represented by their characters and their stories? Roy doing drugs didn't automatically make Green Arrow less heroic. Hence why the transition from Golden Age to Silver Age felt more smoother, not just because of less fanfare (and the point of the New 52 was to experiment with the DC characters in a way Post-Crisis did). Difference being, Post-Crisis experimentations proved to be successful for the most part as they added layers to each marquee character, making them more dynamic and versatile, unlike the New 52 making some of them near unrecognisable.


Now that you put it like this i think you are right. Can't really take him as accurate when such a thing was done by him for a long period of time. It could be excused once. People can make mistakes once in a while. But a prolonged and targeted attack is inexcusable. Especially when apology was made simply to save one's face. You make cogent points. I concede the point. 

The discussion could hardly go far when Wonder Woman film exists. Or even Man of Steel. One can call Man of Steel many things. But Superman's character lacked depth is not one of them.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Sorry but Justice League was WB's answer to Avengers they were most definitely hoping to make a billion. The MCU has 4 films that made over a billion 5 probably now with Black Panther and number 6 will likely be Infinity War. You don't think WB wanted one movie to do that and that wasn't their endgame and Justice League wasn't their best chance?


Maybe WB had dreams of that  before BvS came out, otherwise they wouldn't  have fast tracked JL before BvS even hit theaters.  But not after the poor reception of BvS and SS.
By then WB had already dug their grave and they knew it. It probably would have done even worse if not for Wonder Woman.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Eisenberg isn't an example of bad casting, its an example of bad writing. Snyder/Terrio were obviously trying to cast Lex by way of Mark Zuckerberg, not classic Lex. 
> 
> And I think the marvel films being generally better received helps the actors stay on. Hopefully AQ and WW2 start to swing that.


I disagree.  The mannerisms, twitchiness  were acting choices not writing choices.

----------


## Gaastra

> I think Eisenberg as Lex was always going to be an unconventional choice for the character, and difficult for fans to latch onto, no matter how you wrote him. 
> 
> Even if you take his hair away and put him in a suit, he doesn't really sound like Luthor to me.


That wasn't lex.  It was daffy duck.  I kept waiting for him to jump around and go "whoo whoo!"

----------


## Frontier

> I disagree.  The mannerisms, twitchiness  were acting choices not writing choices.


I think it was a little bit of both.

I think Snyder cast Eisenberg as Lex after talking with him about playing "Jimmy Olsen" exactly because of what he did in BvS.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I know the whole Shazam family is going to be in the CM movie but really I want to see just Mary Marvel and Billy. I just don't care about the rest.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm the opposite.  I find the concept of the Marvel Family interesting and love that they're going with it on film as well.

----------


## Frontier

> I know the whole Shazam family is going to be in the CM movie but really I want to see just Mary Marvel and Billy. I just don't care about the rest.


Well, I just hope they get Billy and Mary right to begin with, though having all these kids together and with powers could make it a very crowded movie. 



> I'm the opposite.  I find the concept of the Marvel Family interesting and love that they're going with it on film as well.


For the record, the Marvel Family predates the New 52 which seems to be inspiring most of this film  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Here's a video that responds to Mark Millar's comments on why the "DCEU doesn't work". I think his response is perfect.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Someone posted this on another forum so i'll post it here.
> 
> Mark millar talks about the dcu.
> 
> Eh don't agree with everything he says but what do you think.
> 
> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...-hasnt-a158134


He makes no sense. The DCEU has been all about the characters finding their way, and trying to become the heroes we know them to be. 

If anything, people have complained that BvS had too much introspection lol

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Why DC’s ‘Batgirl’ Movie Won’t Happen Anytime Soon:* https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-dc-batgirl-movie/

----------


## Elmo

> *Why DC’s ‘Batgirl’ Movie Won’t Happen Anytime Soon:* https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-dc-batgirl-movie/


You gotta love this sorry excuse we have for film journalism nowadays. No source listed but "insider" even though the movie is literally on the slate that WB _officially_ unveiled 6 months ago and they're already hiring creators for the film.

----------


## Carabas

> You gotta love this sorry excuse we have for film journalism nowadays. No source listed but "insider" even though the movie is literally on the slate that WB _officially_ unveiled 6 months ago and they're already hiring creators for the film.


That slate used to include Justice League Part Two, Cyborg, Deathstroke, Gotham City Sirens, Harley Quinn, Joker & Harley Quinn, Nightwing...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Leaked pics from the Shazam! set...

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> That slate used to include Justice League Part Two, Cyborg, Deathstroke, Gotham City Sirens, Harley Quinn, Joker & Harley Quinn, Nightwing...


Maybe WB is going for a clean  slate.

----------


## Barbatos666

They'll make films with Deathstroke, Harley, Batgirl and Nightwing eventually imo. Joker for instance maybe starting production in 2 months. But Lobo, Sirens, Black Adam, Deadshot and whatever else are going bye bye.

----------


## Punisher007

> Leaked pics from the Shazam! set...


looks very comic accurate so far, also that's Mark Strong to the left there if I'm not mistaken.

----------


## Korath

Not really a fan of how cosplay-like this costume look. I would have preferred something more in line with MoS's suit or something a little less... plain and average-looking, even if special effects may sublim it.

----------


## ross61

> Not really a fan of how cosplay-like this costume look. I would have preferred something more in line with MoS's suit or something a little less... plain and average-looking, even if special effects may sublim it.


It wouldn't fit Shazam or the tone and style of this movie.

----------


## Elmo

> That slate used to include Justice League Part Two, Cyborg, Deathstroke, Gotham City Sirens, Harley Quinn, Joker & Harley Quinn, Nightwing...


No. The official slate released by WB only contained 2 films that were taken off: Cyborg and JL part 2. While those others may have been optioned/in development, they were never on any officially released slate.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Not really a fan of how cosplay-like this costume look. I would have preferred something more in line with MoS's suit or something a little less... plain and average-looking, even if special effects may sublim it.


Maybe it depends on the person. I think Black Adam's suit would have a more MoS look to it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Maybe it depends on the person. I think Black Adam's suit would have a more MoS look to it.


I feel like Billy's suit should look a little cosplayish. 

When a kid thinks "super suit" they don't think of texture or scales or whatever shit goes into it these days.

----------


## Rincewind

> You gotta love this sorry excuse we have for film journalism nowadays. No source listed but "insider" even though the movie is literally on the slate that WB _officially_ unveiled 6 months ago and they're already hiring creators for the film.


Who did they hire?  The only one I know of is Joss Whedon and he's gone.

----------


## Carabas

> No. The official slate released by WB only contained 2 films that were taken off: Cyborg and JL part 2. While those others may have been optioned/in development, they were never on any officially released slate.


To be fair, those were fairly huge things to drop.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Looks good to me.

----------


## Elmo

> To be fair, those were fairly huge things to drop.


To you maybe. They're just movies.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Leaked pics from the Shazam! set...


I'm into it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

That.....may be the most comic-accurate costume since Spider-Man's. 

I'm definitely into it.

----------


## Punisher007

> Maybe it depends on the person. I think Black Adam's suit would have a more MoS look to it.


The thing is, the MOS suit looks that way because it's Kryptonian in origin, the movie specifically points that out.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense for non-Kryptonian outfits to look like that.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Leaked pics from the Shazam! set...


I am loving the costume. Perhaps i will have to be excited for the film after all. 

Its still not an official picture. Who knows they might change by stuff like cgi and all. But it looks like they aren't changing. What's the point when you have such a comic accurate costume. 

Whoever leaked the picture has got my attention. Vanguard made a Sam Raimi comparison. That one turned out really good. Its still a still pic, leaked from sets. Costume does not mean that it would turn out to great. But it has got my interest. Maybe it isn't going to be grim dark or edgy. That doesn't suit most comic characters. Was that a pun? lol.

----------


## Frontier

> Leaked pics from the Shazam! set...


The costume resembles the New 52 suit though the fabric and hair seem more Captain Marvel...

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

*Kristen Wiig in talks to play Cheetah in Wonder Woman 2* http://variety.com/2018/film/news/kr...in-1202712507/




> Sources tell Variety that Kristen Wiig is the top choice to play the villain role of Cheetah in the “Wonder Woman” sequel opposite Gal Gadot. Warner Bros. had no comment on the potential casting.
> 
> Variety first reported that Patty Jenkins would be returning to write, direct, and produce the pic after landing a new contract in the high eight-figure range. Following the news that the studio has slated the movie for Nov. 1, 2019, finding this key role became a top priority.
> 
> Insiders indicate that Wiig was always high on Jenkins’ list for the part and had let Wiig know about her interest before Jenkins left to location scout for the project. While it is currently unknown if Wiig is completely on board for the role, a recent meeting between Wiig and top execs began to move things in the right direction.

----------


## Frontier

This is probably the most unconventional DCEU casting yet  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This is probably the most unconventional DCEU casting yet .


Yeah, that's a weird choice. I like her and all, but I hope we won't be getting a Batman '66-type Cheetah.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, that's a weird choice. I like her and all, but I hope we won't be getting a Batman '66-type Cheetah.


I doubt Patty Jenkins would go for someone she wasn't confident could fulfill the role, as hard as it may be to picture Wiig as Cheetah.

----------


## BlackClaw

Ok, that is a weird casting choice. But I trust Patty Jenkins. Besides, it can’t be any worse than Lex Zuckerberg.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I doubt Patty Jenkins would go for someone she wasn't confident could fulfill the role, as hard as it may be to picture Wiig as Cheetah.


I agree Patty Jenkins at the helm makes me more confidant about Wiig being able to handle it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Yep. Odd choice.

But who knows? I had no faith in Heath Ledger as Joker, and while I continue to maintain that he didn't capture the essence of the Joker, I won't hesitate to acknowledge that his performance still surprised me. 

Maybe Wiig's got a shocking performance deep within her that she's just itching to let out. As others have said, I'm inclined to trust Patty Jenkins on this one.

----------


## Robotman

I think Kristen would be a great choice. Obviously she’s known as a comedic actress but she’s been excellent in the few serious roles she’s had. Anyone watch The Skeleton Twins? Plus you have to trust Patty’s instincts.

----------


## Serpico Jones

John Campea says some “earth shattering news” is about to hit the DCEU, fwiw.

----------


## DragonKent17

If i remember correctly is that she tones down comedy in "The Martian"

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

I was thinking someone along the lines of Charlize Theron or Emily Blunt for the  role but this casting is shall we say...unexpected. 

I'll reserve judgement for now.  I could be either pleasantly surprised or unpleasantly unsurprised.

----------


## Jokerz79

Kristen Wiig has done some non-comedic roles so I think she'll do fine many actors were better known for comedy before crossing over.

----------


## Pinsir

I watched Batman v Superman a few days ago and I got to admit, I really enjoyed the film. I loved the dialogue, the action scenes the cinematography, my only point of contention is the Neil Degrass Tyson scene because Pluto bashers do not deserve a platform. I guess since I like 4/5ths of the current DCEU, I'm a DCEU fan now. I haven't watch SS though since the theatres (the same is true for WW and JL though).

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> John Campea says some earth shattering news is about to hit the DCEU, fwiw.


Can't help but roll my eyes at the mention of John Campea.

----------


## Soubhagya

Kristen Wigg!  I am surprised. Amadeus put it well. I was expecting someone like Charlize Theron here. As of now she is the 'top choice'. 

An odd top choice. But no problem. Patty Jenkins is involved. Which means there must be something in her which suits the role. She knows how to get best performances from her actors.

Comedians can be very talented. I was discussing about Robin Williams in the film thread. He was mostly known for comedy. But look at his roles in films like  Insomnia or Good Will Hunting. He was simply excellent.

----------


## Carabas

> I was thinking someone along the lines of Charlize Theron or Emily Blunt for the  role but this casting is shall we say...unexpected.


How epected was the casting of Gal Gadot?

----------


## El_Gato

> How epected was the casting of Gal Gadot?


Very unexpected! If I'm remembering correctly the main women who fans usually fan casted as Diana were Jamie Alexander, Gina Carano, and Lynn Collins. 

Heck all three finalists for Wonder Woman were unexpected (Gal, Olga, and Elodie).


Looking at the picture above, it's quite obvious they were going for a certain racially ambuiguos look for Diana.

----------


## Carabas

> Very unexpected! If I'm remembering correctly the main women who fans usually fan casted as Diana were Jamie Alexander, Gina Carano, and Lynn Collins. 
> 
> Heck all three finalists for Wonder Woman were unexpected (Gal, Olga, and Elodie).


Fans don't know crap about casting...

Also, I would have loved Elodie Yung as Diana as well.

----------


## Gaastra



----------


## Gaastra



----------


## Vanguard-01

Another point? Patty Jenkins seems to have a knack for helping actors up their game. She drew an Oscar-worthy performance out of Charlize Theron: an actress who prior to that role was considered little more than eye candy. Many people were concerned about Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman because of her less-than-stellar work on the Fast and Furious movies. Now sure, Gal's performance as Diana may not have been Oscar-worthy, but it had a genuineness and realness that Patty Jenkins may have helped Gal to find.

So yeah. If this ends up happening, we have every reason to be confident that Patty Jenkins knows what she's doing.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Well, damn!

This could be good news or very, very bad news depending on what happens. Not much to do beyond sit and wait, I guess.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Kristin Wiig does "friend who is a decent person but can't help but be jealous of those more successful than her" very well, and can also be petty/bitch as all hell. I could see her working as cheetah.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Very unexpected! If I'm remembering correctly the main women who fans usually fan casted as Diana were Jamie Alexander, Gina Carano, and Lynn Collins. 
> 
> Heck all three finalists for Wonder Woman were unexpected (Gal, Olga, and Elodie).
> 
> 
> Looking at the picture above, it's quite obvious they were going for a certain racially ambuiguos look for Diana.


Lol @ John Campea's incessant whining over Jaime Alexander not getting the role. And Alexander's own butthurt remarks about Gal Gadot's casting.

----------


## Gaastra

And WB selling stuff starts. Rip WA.

https://www.avclub.com/filmstruck-ad...-sh-1823339497

----------


## Confuzzled

> 


Seems like clickbait. Even if the AT&T deal falls through, DC Comics and Entertainment will be included in the WB package, not separated from it. And if the upcoming DCEU films do well, won't have an impact on the rest of the universe going forward like when Disney purchased Marvel when the MCU was already underway and a few films old.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Kristin Wiig does "friend who is a decent person but can't help but be jealous of those more successful than her" very well, and can also be petty/bitch as all hell. I could see her working as cheetah.


Do we actually know she's supposed to play Cheetah, or could it be someone else? Veronica Cale seems likelier from a more physical perspective.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Fans don't know crap about casting...
> 
> Also, I would have loved Elodie Yung as Diana as well.


They always go with the hot flavor of the month while the producer want to go with someone not well known so the role isn't defined by someone's previous work.  That's why we get Henry Cavill as Superman 
and Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.




> Seems like clickbait. Even if the AT&T deal falls through, DC Comics and Entertainment will be included in the WB package, not separated from it. And if the upcoming DCEU films do well, won't have an impact on the rest of the universe going forward like when Disney purchased Marvel when the MCU was already underway and a few films old.


Those YouTube videos are idiotic.  DC is one of their biggest assets with the money TV, animation, and merchandising brings them. They aren't selling off their cash cow.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Those YouTube videos are idiotic.  DC is one of their biggest assets with the money TV, animation, and merchandising brings them. They aren't selling off their cash cow.


...and video games. The Arkham and Injustice games are MASSIVE moneymakers.

----------


## Tec15

> 


What a nonsensical over the top reaction. 

Here's what has really happened. Umberto Gonzalez at the Wrap wrote "Time Warner would likely be broken up into parts and sold separately as Warner Bros., HBO and Turner" if the AT&T Time Warner merger falls through in a throwaway paragraph in a column dealing with the Batgirl movie. From there, the usual army of sensationalist click baiters dealing with Comic book movies (Like the mouth breather in the video) have extrapolated wildly to claim that Warner Bros is on the verge of selling DC Comics. Cue army of of clueless fanboys on the internet going "Durr, Durr. Sell them Disney, the we'd see some good movies. Durr".

Now for why it's nonsense: First even Gonzalez's non sourced report only claims that "*Warner Bros., HBO and Turner*" could be separately. In other words, DC would stay with Warner Bros under whom it is currently under even if Warner Bros is sold of separately. I suspect that confusion between Time Warner (Parent Company) and Warner Bros (Subsidiary brand dealing Film, TV, Video games, etc. under whom DC Entertainment stands) helps this misunderstanding persist.

Secondly, if this was really something that was going to happen, I think a far better source would be found than a throwaway paragraph in a column about a frigging Batgirl movie, from a guy dedicated solely to scoops on CBM's and being very hit and miss about them (To put it generously).

Seriously think about it. The explosive claim that Time Warner is on the verge of selling of it's components would be big news for loads of business media. It would have a large impact globally across numerous media structures and this news would be of a interest to large group, not to a niche internet audience solely interested in Comic book movies. Yet no other credible news source has reported anything like. Nope only a guy known as EL Maybe for his frequent vague and/or wildly inaccurate claims about CBM casting, has reported on it. 

If this were real it would be a major scoop on it's own and would have to be reported on separately by multiple credible news orgs. Not solely (But I repeat myself) in a a throwaway paragraph in a column dealing with the low priority news about a Batgirl movie. Seriously, check it out. All the wild click bait accounts have been generated singularly from this one Umberto Gonzalez column. Even he probably doesn't realize the shower of misinformation that clickbaiters have manufactured from his column, as he seems to be preoccupied with hyping his Cheetah casting news and not something that would be far bigger news, i.e Time Warner being broken up (If it were real of course  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

I swear comic book fans have to be the most gullible and ill informed people alive. The clickbaiters have found their perfect target audience anyway.

----------


## Elmo

Media convergence needs to freaking stop

----------


## Tec15

Here's El Maybe's column which has generated this much drama. Read it and decide if this means that Disney is close to buying DC comics (As the dumbest fanboys are now proclaiming in response to all the click bait :Stick Out Tongue: ).

https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-dc-batgirl-movie/

----------


## Gaastra

John talks about all this.

----------


## Carabas

> They always go with the hot flavor of the month...


Or the hot flavour of five years go, or two decades ago...

----------


## The_Lurk

> Do we actually know she's supposed to play Cheetah, or could it be someone else? Veronica Cale seems likelier from a more physical perspective.


1000% agreement. 

She looks perfect for that from the few pictures I saw; would be a waste to get her into the franchise and cast her for something else:




But I guess any questions regarding this will be answered with that:



*grin*

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Game Night's director John Francis Daley got the job of directing Flashpoint: https://twitter.com/JohnFDaley/statu...6947515662336?

----------


## The_Lurk

> Game Night's director John Francis Daley got the job of directing Flashpoint: https://twitter.com/JohnFDaley/statu...6947515662336?


Thanks for the update  :Smile: 

A Flash movie got a new director... its like saying I saw a cop in a donut shop. Have they already build in a swing door on the Flash directors office or is that planned for the next change?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Or the hot flavour of five years go, or two decades ago...


Or in the case of a female character their own masturbatory fantasy. Maybe even some of the male characters.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Game Night's director John Francis Daley got the job of directing Flashpoint: https://twitter.com/JohnFDaley/statu...6947515662336?


So he isn't co-directing anymore?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> So he isn't co-directing anymore?


Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley are co-directing.

https://www.cbr.com/dceus-flashpoint...ors-confirmed/

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Another Shazam costume leak!

----------


## Ascended

That's more color than I've seen in the other DC movies combined.

I hates it.  :Smile: 

Honestly though, dude looks the part. Gonna wait to see a proper official photo, to see how they tint things and whatnot, but it's not the worst looking costume I've seen on a movie set.

But that first trailer better blow my mind, or my money will be staying in my pocket.

----------


## Robotman

> Another Shazam costume leak!


Looks good! Very comic accurate. I’m guessing the lightning symbol will have some cgi additions.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Looks good imo. Not a fan of the triangle logo but that's a nitpick.

----------


## Frontier

> Another Shazam costume leak!


Definitely pretty comic-accurate to the modern suit. Nice!



> That's more color than I've seen in the other DC movies combined.
> 
> I hates it. 
> 
> Honestly though, dude looks the part. Gonna wait to see a proper official photo, to see how they tint things and whatnot, but it's not the worst looking costume I've seen on a movie set.
> 
> But that first trailer better blow my mind, or my money will be staying in my pocket.


They can always darken it in post like they do with most of the DCEU costumes  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Shazam! set video: https://twitter.com/JeremyLawrence/s...47902910042112

----------


## Robotman

> Shazam! set video: https://twitter.com/JeremyLawrence/s...47902910042112


that's pretty cool. looks like Billy has that youthful exuberance when he saves the day.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> that's pretty cool. looks like Billy has that youthful exuberance when he saves the day.


Seems like the people love him too.

----------


## Frontier

> Seems like the people love him too.


It'd be kind of hilarious if people seem more accepting of Billy then they ever did for DCEU Superman up until he died  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Shazam! set video: https://twitter.com/JeremyLawrence/s...47902910042112


Oh yeah! This movie, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman 2, look like they're going to be just what the doctor ordered for the DCEU! 

Love the idea that Billy is more or less still himself in Shazam mode.

----------


## stephens2177

That suit is straight from the animated movies,just with a larger chest lightning effect.spot on actually.

Looks good to me

----------


## Korath

> It'd be kind of hilarious if people seem more accepting of Billy then they ever did for DCEU Superman up until he died .


Well, it wouldn't be so surprising. If SHAZAM happens after the other films, peoples now know that superheroes are here to help. 

I must say that from the front, I like the costume a lot more. The emblem and the wrist looks great, and it's less like a cheap cosplay to a full blown costume. I also like that Shazam will be so emotive, even if I hope that D.C. won't go the Marvel way and kill every dramatic moment or build-up with a joke.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Another Shazam costume leak!


So much color! Its blinding! What have they done to my beloved DCEU!  :Wink:

----------


## Soubhagya

> Shazam! set video: https://twitter.com/JeremyLawrence/s...47902910042112


Looks like it is going to be funny here and there. A child in superhero's body! It has the potential to charm and win over a lot of people. I am becoming more favorable with those leaks.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

New Shazam! set video featuring Dr. Sivana... https://streamable.com/hjgv4

----------


## Styles

Wonder Woman 2 To Begin Filming this May

----------


## Robotman

> Wonder Woman 2 To Begin Filming this May


If that’s the case we should start hear some major casting news anytime now.

----------


## Frontier

> If that’s the case we should start hear some major casting news anytime now.


Well, we've already heard about Wiig being eyed for Cheetah...

----------


## mace11

> Marvel isn't making masterpieces IMO I always compare them to old school Bond films just fun movies with some good ones, some ok ones, and a few great ones for their genre. You can love them or hate them but no one can deny Marvel's success. The DCEU isn't a failure as a whole but more then less of their films haven't met studio expectations and Justice League barely broke even given it's budget and other cost. I can see why it's frustrating to see Marvel take B and C list characters and make successful franchises out of them and WB are literally working with the heroes who arguably built the genre and seem stuck in the mud.


To me all mcu movies have been really good.Some have been masterpieces. and all are different movies with decent to really good villains.
For me all dceu movies i have seen have been really good too but on average not as good as the mcu movies.

----------


## mace11

> Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato  View Post
> Looking at the picture above, it's quite obvious they were going for a certain racially ambuiguos look for Diana.
> 
> Heck all three finalists for Wonder Woman were unexpected (Gal, Olga, and Elodie).


To me Elodie looks east asian and not racially ambiguous to me at all.
Gal gadot does not look like a swedish white person but she looks white and she is white.
I just seen a number of pics of Olga just now  and she looks white as well.

----------


## mace11

> even if I hope that D.C. won't go the Marvel way and kill every dramatic moment or build-up with a joke.


Marvel does not do that so i don't agree with your comment here.
Not even the non mcu films that i have seen so far.

----------


## mace11

By the way i think the shazam dceu costume look fine just like i think carol mcu costume looks fine too.
For carol it's not even going to be her final costume anyway.
DC and  Marvel know what they are doing when it comes to the costumes we have seen so far in movies.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> To me all mcu movies have been really good.Some have been masterpieces. and all are different movies with decent to really good villains.
> For me all dceu movies i have seen have been really good too but on average not as good as the mcu movies.


IMO, there's only one superhero movie masterpiece: TDK.

Only other movies that come close are Logan, DoFP, SM2, IM1, Cap 2, and Batman Begins.

After that, the good-to-great ones are GotG1, X2, X1, First Class, Deadpool, Black Panther, MoS, WW, TDKR, SM1, Blade 2 and BvS:UE.

Everything else is mediocre, or less. For instance, I consider both SS, and Ragnarok, to be trash.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

I think the DCFU should take a page from Fox, and focus on challenging character pieces within a connected universe, but the connectivity isn't the focus. That also means creating stories that don't have plots that make us wonder where everyone else is. The stories can eventually lead to some big team-up, but that shouldn't be the objective; movies should leave the doors open, not be straight corridors to the next movie.

Also, have characters interact when appropriate in each other's movies. Like, have Superman be a guest in Shazam, and Martian Manhunter, origin movies. The former is him inspecting a "new Superman", as well as him being Billy's inspiration, and for the latter, it could be Supes and J'onnz forming a deep bond due to their similar circumstances.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

New Shazam! pics...

Dr. Sivana...



Freddy...



Shazam...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Frontier

Really not sure how I feel about a powered-up Sivana...

----------


## DragonKent17

do i see a Tawny symbol on the uniform???

----------


## Frontier

> do i see a Tawny symbol on the uniform???


Oh yeah, on the buttons holding the cape up. 

I don't think that was from the New 52 suit, come to think of it.

----------


## Johnny

> Really not sure how I feel about a powered-up Sivana...


It's quite obvious who they originally must've wanted to be the villain.

----------


## Frontier

> It's quite obvious who they originally must've wanted to be the villain.


Thanks Dwayne Johnson  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Although now Mark Strong looks more like Lex Luthor then even Jesse Eisenberg did, with or without hair.

----------


## maxmcco

> Thanks Dwayne Johnson .
> 
> Although now Mark Strong looks more like Lex Luthor then even Jesse Eisenberg did, with or without hair.


SO HAPPY Dwayne Johnson is not in this movie. Plus, there are lots of Shazam stories with a super-powered Sivana. So far, I really like what I'm seeing.
Regarding the costume, I love that the lightning is not pointing to the side like the New 52 costume. That always looked off to me. Also, this one looks better that the stumpy lightning from Justice League War.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

I'm sure they'll add a bunch of CGI lightning to the Shazam costume, I'll reserve my judgement until then. Strong looks bitchin' in that leather coat and suit, it will be interesting to see if him and Sandberg can make something interesting of a pretty one-note character whose goofiness probably isn't a great fit for a movie adaptation.

----------


## WillieMorgan

I'm liking what I'm seeing with these Shazam shots.

It does look like they've dug out one of the old suits from the 'Man Of Steel' film and given it a coat of spray paint though  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> 


That padding is really disturbing. Hopefully it looks good in the movie and it's just for this scene, since it looks quite cold.

I have not been impressed with many of the DCEU costumes as of late. Aside from the Wonder Woman one (and the costumes in that film too), which is fantastic. The MoS Superman costume to me was perfection, no matter how I feel about the film. Oh and both Mera costumes which look great. Some of the Atlantean ones are fine, though the Aquaman one wasn't to me but the soldiers looked great. Wish we saw more of them. Nothing else aside from that to me has been great on film.

Regarding Shazam, I love the colours of this suit. I really hope they pop like that on film, and I like that they embraced some of the cheesiness. That being said, Zach himself isn't looking too good, and I don't know why his hair had to be dyed like that. It looks off. I know it's accurate to the comics but still. Sometimes not everything works when translating to film.

Hopefully I'm just worrying and everything will be fine on film.

----------


## nightw1ng

I agree on the amount of padding. It looks like cosplay. I'm not sure if they'll be able to fix that with cgi. It's like Affleck's bulky bat-suit, but without the benefit of being able to say it's armor. Was Zachary Levi not able to put on as much mass as they wanted?

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Would people here be OK with the current state of the DCEU being the default? That is, there's no real unifying vision or 5-year "phases" laid out, just one or two movies each year that sometimes tenuously connect or share a cameo but don't necessarily take place in the same world or continuity and doesn't build towards big teamup-movies? Or are you still waiting for some big message from WB that lies out more of a cohesive plans for the movies, similar to Marvel studios?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

More about the movie no one has asked for...

*‘Joker’ Origin Film to Portray Batman Villain as Failed ’80s Comedian (Exclusive):* https://www.thewrap.com/todd-phillip...medy-scorcese/

----------


## Carabas

Are there really all that many movies that people did ask for?

----------


## Frontier

> Would people here be OK with the current state of the DCEU being the default? That is, there's no real unifying vision or 5-year "phases" laid out, just one or two movies each year that sometimes tenuously connect or share a cameo but don't necessarily take place in the same world or continuity and doesn't build towards big teamup-movies? Or are you still waiting for some big message from WB that lies out more of a cohesive plans for the movies, similar to Marvel studios?


At this point I think it's better for DC to focus more on their standalone solo films and characters rather then trying to build-up to a shared universe and Thanos-level conclusion when audiences are still not loving the DCEU as a whole yet and there's doubt we'll ever even see another _Justice League_ film again. 



> More about the movie no one has asked for...
> 
> *‘Joker’ Origin Film to Portray Batman Villain as Failed ’80s Comedian (Exclusive):* https://www.thewrap.com/todd-phillip...medy-scorcese/


So his _killing Joke_ origin?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> To me Elodie looks east asian and not racially ambiguous to me at all.
> Gal gadot does not look like a swedish white person but she looks white and she is white.
> I just seen a number of pics of Olga just now  and she looks white as well.


TV's Wonder Woman, Lynda Carter, is Mexican on her mother's side.




> Are there really all that many movies that people did ask for?


I want a good Catwoman solo movie, based on the character in the comic books.  Batman got some good movies after Batman & Robin. Catwoman deserves another chance.

----------


## Carabas

> I want a good Catwoman solo movie, based on the character in the comic books.  Batman got some good movies after Batman & Robin. Catwoman deserves another chance.


I meant movies that then were actually made.

----------


## Confuzzled

Gal Gadot is non-white if Arabs are considered to be non-white, as there is a very blurry line between the races of people originating from the Mediterranean and Caucus regions, including Arabs and Ashkenazi Jews like Gadot. There are many Middle Eastern and South Asian people who resemble Gadot more than white people who resemble Gadot.

----------


## Barbatos666

> More about the movie no one has asked for...
> 
> *Joker Origin Film to Portray Batman Villain as Failed 80s Comedian (Exclusive):* https://www.thewrap.com/todd-phillip...medy-scorcese/


Just watch as it becomes a hit lol.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Would people here be OK with the current state of the DCEU being the default? That is, there's no real unifying vision or 5-year "phases" laid out, just one or two movies each year that sometimes tenuously connect or share a cameo but don't necessarily take place in the same world or continuity and doesn't build towards big teamup-movies? Or are you still waiting for some big message from WB that lies out more of a cohesive plans for the movies, similar to Marvel studios?


I still want a connected movie verse for DC. Hopefully these solo projects lead up to another big teamup and WB don’t meddle with the films as much as they did with previous projects.

----------


## Jabare

> Are there really all that many movies that people did ask for?


yes.............

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Shazam...


Not sure how I like the crazy texturing (it seems to be on virtually every cinematic super hero costume nowadays), but it kinda makes sense if this world's Shazam/Billy Batson is inspired by Superman.

Looking forward to seeing official shots and a trailer.

As for the Joker origin movie, ugh. The Joker doesn't really work without Batman, as their relationship is the most intriguing thing about the character. Take that away, and I lose all interest.

----------


## Johnny

I love the little Tawky Tawny symbols on the buttons. lol He better show up.

----------


## Carabas

> Not sure how I like the crazy texturing (it seems to be on virtually every cinematic super hero costume nowadays).


I don't think they put the texturing on on purpose.
It's just how the material they use happens to be.

----------


## Confuzzled

*Patty Jenkins confirms Kristen Wiig cast as Cheetah in Wonder Woman 2:* https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...22803544690688




> So excited to confirm the most thrilling news. Yes! It’s true! So incredibly lucky to welcome the sensationally talented Kristen Wiig to our Wonder Woman family. Can't wait to finally work with one of my favorites. And SO excited by what we have planned. #Cheetah!!! @GalGadot

----------


## Elmo

hell yeah!!!!

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> *Patty Jenkins confirms Kristen Wiig cast as Cheetah in Wonder Woman 2:* https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...22803544690688


I've only seen Wiig in _Zoolander 2_, so I don't have any particular objections to her. It is weird seeing an actress known primarily for comedy taking on a role like this, but I'm interested to see how they play her.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

I'm more curious than anything to see how Wiig does. Can't say I have much confidence, but I do have confidence in Patty and Gal. 

Anyway, I think the textured look on the DCEU costumes is important so it doesn't look like straight rubber or spandex (think of Schumacher films...). 
Shazam's suit looks fantastic. I imagine the lightning bolt will have effects added on since it appears to be a solid rubber layer without any texture to make it "pop."

----------


## Johnny

I'm fine with Wiig. Plus she has to redeem herself to the geek fandom after Ghostbusters.

----------


## Elmo

> Would people here be OK with the current state of the DCEU being the default? That is, there's no real unifying vision or 5-year "phases" laid out, just one or two movies each year that sometimes tenuously connect or share a cameo but don't necessarily take place in the same world or continuity and doesn't build towards big teamup-movies? Or are you still waiting for some big message from WB that lies out more of a cohesive plans for the movies, similar to Marvel studios?


That's actually the goal of the DCEU.

From Geoff Johns:




> Our intention, certainly, moving forward is using the continuity to help make sure nothing is diverging in a way that doesnt make sense, but theres no insistence upon an overall storyline or interconnectivity in that universe. Moving forward, youll see the DC movie universe being a universe, but one that comes from the heart of the filmmaker whos creating them. Some of the movies do connect the characters together, like Justice League. But, like with Aquaman, our goal is not to connect Aquaman to every movie. The movies not about another movie.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> That's actually the goal of the DCEU.
> 
> From Geoff Johns:


Right, I remember hearing about this and the Forbes box office guys actually suggested this exact thing: WB/DC needs to make standalone CBM movies that tell great stories. Don't worry about a singular coherent universe. 

That's why I think they can loosely tease Legion of Doom with each solo film and then years down the line, have another loosely tied in team up of the JL vs. LoD. But there doesn't need to be explicit connections, so to speak.

----------


## Elmo

> Right, I remember hearing about this and the Forbes box office guys actually suggested this exact thing: WB/DC needs to make standalone CBM movies that tell great stories. Don't worry about a singular coherent universe. 
> 
> That's why I think they can loosely tease Legion of Doom with each solo film and then years down the line, have another loosely tied in team up of the JL vs. LoD. But there doesn't need to be explicit connections, so to speak.


It's the right way to do it.

Filmmakers make their standalone superhero movies, without any build up or connection to other movies but still part of the same universe. It's all about the filmmakers.

----------


## Frontier

> I love the little Tawky Tawny symbols on the buttons. lol He better show up.


I wonder if Tawny might still be a tiger at the zoo that Billy visits? 



> *Patty Jenkins confirms Kristen Wiig cast as Cheetah in Wonder Woman 2:* https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...22803544690688


Still a very unexpected choice but I trust Patty knows what she's doing from a casting front.

Definitely curious to see what kind of take on Cheetah we get from this.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> *Patty Jenkins confirms Kristen Wiig cast as Cheetah in Wonder Woman 2:* https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...22803544690688


Well...I've lost all interest in WW2.

Also, I'm tired of all the "I trust in Patty" nonsense. She casted poorly for WW1's villains, and did so again.

Was hoping they'd go less Hollywood, too. Now we've got another person who can't do stunts casted as a villain that's physical threat. That means another CGI mess of a third act.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> *Patty Jenkins confirms Kristen Wiig cast as Cheetah in Wonder Woman 2:* https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...22803544690688


Alright, then. I have some doubts, but I trust Patty Jenkins. 

Also not sure I like the idea of Sivana being powered up. I feel the same way about Lex Luthor fighting Superman in a power suit: you're missing the point! The battle between Shazam and Sivana  (or Lex and Superman) is supposed to be "Brains against Brawn." These villains can't, and shouldn't, beat their hero at his own game. They have to make him play their game.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Would people here be OK with the current state of the DCEU being the default? That is, there's no real unifying vision or 5-year "phases" laid out, just one or two movies each year that sometimes tenuously connect or share a cameo but don't necessarily take place in the same world or continuity and doesn't build towards big teamup-movies? Or are you still waiting for some big message from WB that lies out more of a cohesive plans for the movies, similar to Marvel studios?


I would like to see WB/DC do something more ambitious with their properties similar to what Marvel have managed to achieve. The odd great Superman or Batman film isn't enough for me now.

That said, I think the series needs to get it's house in order first. The building blocks of the universe have all been laid in place now (for better or worse). My ideal scenario is to focus on developing higher quality and better edited standalone films within that framework (which I'm crossing my fingers that both Aquaman and Shazam both are) and see if this can be moved forward again in a couple of years. 5 year plans and grand designs are a little too much for the studio at present.

----------


## Carabas

> Was hoping they'd go less Hollywood, too. Now we've got another person who can't do stunts casted as a villain that's physical threat. That means another CGI mess of a third act.


You ALWAYS get a mess of CGI. Even if the actor is the most fittest person in the history of mankind, he or she is not going to do what is needed in a superhero throwdown.

Your comment also reminds me of the reaction to Marvel casting the fat guy from Parks and Recreation as Starlord.

----------


## Carabas

> I would like to see WB/DC do something more ambitious with their properties similar to what Marvel have managed to achieve.


Welp, they gave it a go, and they fell flat on their faces.

Apparently what Marvel is doing is harder than it seems.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Welp, they gave it a go, and they fell flat on their faces.
> 
> Apparently what Marvel is doing is harder than it seems.


Harder than it seems? Certainly. Impossible? I'm not accepting that.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I've only seen Wiig in _Zoolander 2_, so I don't have any particular objections to her. It is weird seeing an actress known primarily for comedy taking on a role like this, but I'm interested to see how they play her.


Michael Keaton was primarily known for playing comedy roles and he has worked out well enough in both DC and Marvel based superhero movies.




> Well...I've lost all interest in WW2.
> 
> Also, I'm tired of all the "I trust in Patty" nonsense. She casted poorly for WW1's villains, and did so again.
> 
> Was hoping they'd go less Hollywood, too. Now we've got another person who can't do stunts casted as a villain that's physical threat. That means another CGI mess of a third act.


I too trust Patty.  Maybe because I thought Wonder Woman had great villains and especially enjoyed the twist as to who Ares really was. Plus I felt the CGI looked great. Obviously I am easier
to please so I will probably enjoy the hell out of WW2.

----------


## Frontier

> Also not sure I like the idea of Sivana being powered up. I feel the same way about Lex Luthor fighting Superman in a power suit: you're missing the point! The battle between Shazam and Sivana  (or Lex and Superman) is supposed to be "Brains against Brawn." These villains can't, and shouldn't, beat their hero at his own game. They have to make him play their game.


I feel like at least the Power Suit is an invention of Lex's, something he built, so it's an achievement of his intellect that he was able to build something that can augment his natural abilities and prove his human ingenuity against Superman.

I think it's different from taking a science-based villain and giving them superpowers.

----------


## Robotman

I love Kristen Wiig so I’m all for this casting. As others have already said, Michael Keaton and Robert Downey Jr. were met with similar fan anger after their casting. At this point you really have to trust Patty’s instincts. Plus Kristen has been great in the few dramatic roles she’s been in.

----------


## Carabas

> Harder than it seems? Certainly. Impossible? I'm not accepting that.


Sure, but they tried and failed, and this is really the sort of thing where you have to get it right the first time.

----------


## Carabas

> I feel like at least the Power Suit is an invention of Lex's, something he built, so it's an achievement of his intellect that he was able to build something that can augment his natural abilities and prove his human ingenuity against Superman.
> 
> I think it's different from taking a science-based villain and giving them superpowers.


Sivana used his science to build himself a superstrong robot body in 1941, ages before Lex buit himself a Iron Man suit..

----------


## Punisher007

Yeah I'm assuming that Sivana comes up with a way to "upgrade" himself.

----------


## PushaMan600

I have no problem with Wiig being cast in the Wonder Woman sequel, I'm just having a hard time seeing her as Cheetah, which the rumors claim is the part she'll play. I look at Cheetah in the comics, and I imagine a live action version of her, I see an actress whom has that exotic look, somewhat tall and flexible (that last part doesn't really matter, I know stuntwomen will be in place and more CGI. My ideal actress to play Cheetah right now is Charlize Theron oddly enough.

As far as casting goes, I sure do hope nothing comes out of the rumors of DCEU heads wanting to lure Tom Cruise to be their Hal Jordan. The guy seems the same to me in every movie, and I don't see him fitting much with the DCU version of Hal Jordan. 

BTW, I'm glad to finally be a part of this community, see ya around guys.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

WB and their weird advertising for the JL blu-ray: https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...75531461378053

 :EEK!:

----------


## Carabas

> WB and their weird advertising for the JL blu-ray: https://twitter.com/justiceleaguewb/...75531461378053


It oddly makes me really want to like the movie.

And then my brain kicks my heart in the nuts and I realise what movie I'm thinking about.

----------


## Carabas

> I have no problem with Wiig being cast in the Wonder Woman sequel, I'm just having a hard time seeing her as Cheetah, which the rumors claim is the part she'll play. I look at Cheetah in the comics, and I imagine a live action version of her, I see an actress whom has that exotic look, somewhat tall and flexible (that last part doesn't really matter, I know stuntwomen will be in place and more CGI.


The cheetah is almost certainly going to be a motion-captured CGI critter. How tall Wiig is doesn't matter. How exotic she looks doesn't matter.

But she will also play Barbara Ann Minerva, who in the comics looks about as exotic as Kristen Wiig.

----------


## Johnny

> I have no problem with Wiig being cast in the Wonder Woman sequel, I'm just having a hard time seeing her as Cheetah, which the rumors claim is the part she'll play. I look at Cheetah in the comics, and I imagine a live action version of her, I see an actress whom has that exotic look, somewhat tall and flexible (that last part doesn't really matter, I know stuntwomen will be in place and more CGI. My ideal actress to play Cheetah right now is Charlize Theron oddly enough.
> 
> As far as casting goes, I sure do hope nothing comes out of the rumors of DCEU heads wanting to lure Tom Cruise to be their Hal Jordan. The guy seems the same to me in every movie, and I don't see him fitting much with the DCU version of Hal Jordan. 
> 
> BTW, I'm glad to finally be a part of this community, see ya around guys.


Welcome to the CBR forums!

As far as Kristen Wiig is concerned, I like her. She's not a bad actress and she could really surprise everyone in this role. I assume by "exotic look", you mean of non-Caucasian ethnicity? If so, Barbara Minerva or any other female version of Cheetah has always been portrayed as a Caucasian woman. Which of course doesn't prevent the character from being non-Caucasian in live-action, but I think they wanted to stay true to the comic version by casting Wiig. Those pics floating around of Wiig with short blonde hair look like she's taken directly from the Wonder Woman Rebirth comics.

As for Tom Cruise, he's not going to be Hal Jordan. That "scoop" was debunked already, but even if they do go for a 50+ year old Hal Jordan, they won't cast Tom Cruise in the role. When you cast Cruise in anything, the movie obviously becomes all about him and I'm not sure they want Hal to be the central character, he will likely play a mentor figure to a younger John Stewart and then die in the end or whatever.

----------


## Rincewind

> The cheetah is almost certainly going to be a motion-captured CGI critter. How tall Wiig is doesn't matter. How exotic she looks doesn't matter.
> 
> But she will also play Barbara Ann Minerva, who in the comics looks about as exotic as Kristen Wiig.


I agree.  I can't remember who said it first, but the key to casting in a superhero movie is to cast an actor who can play the secret identity, don't just cast for who looks closest in a costume.

----------


## PushaMan600

> The cheetah is almost certainly going to be a motion-captured CGI critter. How tall Wiig is doesn't matter. How exotic she looks doesn't matter.
> 
> But she will also play Barbara Ann Minerva, who in the comics looks about as exotic as Kristen Wiig.




I'm the type of person who, when it comes to film and questionable casting, would take a wait and see approach. I'm not even talking about Wiig when I said how I imagine Cheetah, I meant specifically how I view the character in comics and video games and how I'd like to see that character as when transferred over to film, I'd still want her to keep that same look. But thats just my opinion, everyone doesn't have to agree, its cool.

And thanks Johnny for the welcome. Now on to the Cheetah thing, when I say exotic, I definitely don't mean non-Caucasian. I thought Angelina Jolie had a very exotic look back in the day, today as well and when I said exotic in the last post, I followed that with my wish to see Charlize Theron in the Cheetah role. But when I said exotic here, I had a specific person in mind, has anyone ever seen Hap & Leonard, anyone? If not I know theres some Walking Dead fans here, well in the tv show, there's an actor, I think she's from the UK, but she's basically the leader of the group who are based in what appeared to be a auto salvage yard. In the final episodes of Hap & Leonard, the first season she played this sex-driven, murdering, psychopath.  And her modeling photos from real life, those are hot as well. I don't know her name right now, but when I said exotic, for some reason thats exactly whom I was picturing. I'll edit this if her name comes back to me, lol.

----------


## Johnny

I looked it up and I believe you're talking about Polyanna McIntosh, a Scottish actress. I get what you mean now, she could've been an interesting choice.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I have no problem with Wiig being cast in the Wonder Woman sequel, I'm just having a hard time seeing her as Cheetah, which the rumors claim is the part she'll play. I look at Cheetah in the comics, and I imagine a live action version of her, I see an actress whom has that exotic look, somewhat tall and flexible (that last part doesn't really matter, I know stuntwomen will be in place and more CGI. My ideal actress to play Cheetah right now is Charlize Theron oddly enough.
> .


 Charlize Theron seems to be the got to actor for every female action character.  They'd probably have to make clones of her if she were in every role she got fan casted for.

----------


## Carabas

> I'm the type of person who, when it comes to film and questionable casting, would take a wait and see approach. I'm not even talking about Wiig when I said how I imagine Cheetah, I meant specifically how I view the character in comics and video games and how I'd like to see that character as when transferred over to film, I'd still want her to keep that same look. But thats just my opinion, everyone doesn't have to agree, its cool.
> 
> And thanks Johnny for the welcome. Now on to the Cheetah thing, when I say exotic, I definitely don't mean non-Caucasian. I thought Angelina Jolie had a very exotic look back in the day, today as well and when I said exotic in the last post, I followed that with my wish to see Charlize Theron in the Cheetah role. But when I said exotic here, I had a specific person in mind, has anyone ever seen Hap & Leonard, anyone?


Unless I am reading you wrong you look for somebody who will look good in cat make-up?

The actual Cheetah in the movie is likely to look extremely exotic, regardless of who is in the motion capture suit.
What we'll get will likely not look all too different from this:



Barbara Ann Minerva on the other hand, the woman who gets cursed and turns into the Cheetah looks like this:

----------


## Soubhagya

> I'm the type of person who, when it comes to film and questionable casting, would take a wait and see approach. I'm not even talking about Wiig when I said how I imagine Cheetah, I meant specifically how I view the character in comics and video games and how I'd like to see that character as when transferred over to film, I'd still want her to keep that same look. But thats just my opinion, everyone doesn't have to agree, its cool.
> 
> And thanks Johnny for the welcome. Now on to the Cheetah thing, when I say exotic, I definitely don't mean non-Caucasian. I thought Angelina Jolie had a very exotic look back in the day, today as well and when I said exotic in the last post, I followed that with my wish to see Charlize Theron in the Cheetah role. But when I said exotic here, I had a specific person in mind, has anyone ever seen Hap & Leonard, anyone? If not I know theres some Walking Dead fans here, well in the tv show, there's an actor, I think she's from the UK, but she's basically the leader of the group who are based in what appeared to be a auto salvage yard. In the final episodes of Hap & Leonard, the first season she played this sex-driven, murdering, psychopath.  And her modeling photos from real life, those are hot as well. I don't know her name right now, but when I said exotic, for some reason thats exactly whom I was picturing. I'll edit this if her name comes back to me, lol.


Hello PushaMan! A warm welcome to you. Hope you enjoy your time here. 

Now looking at the picture posted by Johnny, do you mean someone  who is beautiful but looks a bit....catty? 

My policy with casting is simply get a good and talented actor. And everything usually turns out fine. Heath Ledger as Joker must have been a strange choice. But as he was a really good actor and realized the vision of the director, so it turned out nicely. 

I must admit it is a surprising choice. Kristen Wigg? But Patty Jenkins is enthusiastic. So, i am very curious but think its a good choice. I trust in Patty Jenkins. She must have seen something in her. 

In these times when Planets of The Apes films are coming out, and people can forget that they are looking at a cg character i think that's what they are going to try. I can't imagine any kind of great makeup work would look good on screen. Cheetah is not Mystique. Mystique has an exotic look. But Cheetah who is but a furry wild cat, can look really ridiculous. I don't know. It might work. But these are my thoughts on this. 

Nice to hear from you.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> You ALWAYS get a mess of CGI. Even if the actor is the most fittest person in the history of mankind, he or she is not going to do what is needed in a superhero throwdown.
> 
> Your comment also reminds me of the reaction to Marvel casting the fat guy from Parks and Recreation as Starlord.


That's different. Money Ball showed he could do dramatic. Anyways, I thought it was about him being too fat, at the time. Otherwise he was a good choice, cuz he's funny, and GotG was supposed to be funny.

Also, yes there will be CGI, but I don't want it to overwhelm the scene, and characters, unless that's the point (like with the huge destruction being the representation of Did, and the flaws of old Krypton). Patty didn't show that she could do great final boss spectacle in that WW 3rd act.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The cheetah is almost certainly going to be a motion-captured CGI critter. How tall Wiig is doesn't matter. How exotic she looks doesn't matter.
> 
> But she will also play Barbara Ann Minerva, who in the comics looks about as exotic as Kristen Wiig.


Wiig is just gonna look weird as Cheetah, IMO. Tho, that could be the point; get someone you wouldn't expect to then become the monster. Like Bruce Banner.

I'm still not interested in seeing her as the character. I'm looking forward to being proven wrong.

----------


## Carabas

> That's different. Money Ball showed he could do dramatic. Anyways, I thought it was about him being too fat, at the time. Otherwise he was a good choice, cuz he's funny, and GotG was supposed to be funny.


Welp, I actually remember 2013, and no, it wasn't different. Fans hated the choice almost unanimously.

----------


## Black_Adam

I see no reason why Cheetah has to be CGI and think it would be a big mistake after how much the DCEU has been criticised for having bad CGI villains in the last few films.

Look at Killer Croc in Suicide Squad could easily do something similar with Cheetah using makeup and prosthetics.

----------


## Frontier

> I see no reason why Cheetah has to be CGI and think it would be a big mistake after how much the DCEU has been criticised for having bad CGI villains in the last few films.
> 
> Look at Killer Croc in Suicide Squad could easily do something similar with Cheetah using makeup and prosthetics.


I wouldn't be surprised if they go for a mix of mo-cap and prosthetics.

----------


## Pinsir

The cgi for BvS was very good, the best 'hero vs hulking monster' fight scene by far. Part of the reason though is because it was set at night.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The cgi for BvS was very good, the best 'hero vs hulking monster' fight scene by far. Part of the reason though is because it was set at night.


"Heroes" vs Monster I'd say Pacific Rim is better CGI.

----------


## Carabas

> The cgi for BvS was very good, the best 'hero vs hulking monster' fight scene by far. Part of the reason though is because it was set at night.


Are you saying the CGI was kinda crap but it wasn't noticeable because it was dark?

----------


## Blind Wedjat

I'm very excited for Cheetah, but I'll admit the Wiig casting was very unexpected. I don't particular like it but I'll wait and see. 

One thing I am hoping for is that Patty uses less slow motion this time. I'm worried about it because Cheetah is a speedster and ever since X-Men: Days of Future Past, there as been this temptation to display the powers of speedsters in live action with slow motion. Plus, the DCEU has used it ad nauseum in my opinion. 

Let Cheetah feel fast. We should barely be able see most of her movements. She's a force of nature and she needs to be shown that way. We all remember seeing Faora fight those soldiers in MoS and how awesome it was because she was fast and the movie let her be fast. That's what I want.

----------


## Soubhagya

I tend to agree with you. Slow motion does not feel so novel any more. X-Men ones were cool because of a hint of playfulness. Second time it would not have worked as first. But in Age of Apocalypse they dialed that scenario to eleven. Instead of three people it was saving the entire school from the explosion. All the while keeping the tone of levity and fun.

I say this has not worked so well anywhere else. Not in Age of Ultron. Not in Justice League. But that Wonder Woman one in the beginning of Justice League was fun. Man of Steel was also great imo. Fast movement like that brings a sense of continuous and breathtaking action which they try to capture on the page anyway. Just don't make it such that its difficult to follow the action.   

My younger brother was watching Justice League and called it out right at the beginning. Batman is too bulky and moves so slowly. Its awkward to watch. My sister said that too. Thankfully that was the beginning and they enjoyed the film. But the point is if you aren't trying to catch that sense of almost breathless, heart pounding action what are you even trying? Comics get away from that as they are static pictures. And in other places they look cool because it is extraordinary. But in superhero films moving so fast that the world slows down isn't extraordinary. Even Batman dodges bullets.

There has to be a feeling of breathless action. That Warehouse scene in BvS was great. I don't know about TV shows. But for films slow motion shall be used rarely. Its boring to watch without adding something more.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I looked it up and I believe you're talking about Polyanna McIntosh, a Scottish actress. I get what you mean now, she could've been an interesting choice.


I really love this choice. She would have been great.

Kristen Wiig is a truly great actress though. I have all the faith in the world in the choice they made. I think she's going to make a definitive Barbara Minerva/Cheetah.

----------


## Carabas

> I'm very excited for Cheetah, but I'll admit the Wiig casting was very unexpected. I don't particular like it but I'll wait and see. 
> 
> One thing I am hoping for is that Patty uses less slow motion this time. I'm worried about it because Cheetah is a speedster...


Her being a speedster would come as a big surprise to people who mostly know her from animation and video games. And I know her from the comics, and the only time I can remember she was actually treated as a speedster was with the Flash crossover during Rucka's first run.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> I'm very excited for Cheetah, but I'll admit the Wiig casting was very unexpected. I don't particular like it but I'll wait and see. 
> 
> One thing I am hoping for is that Patty uses less slow motion this time. I'm worried about it because Cheetah is a speedster and ever since X-Men: Days of Future Past, there as been this temptation to display the powers of speedsters in live action with slow motion. Plus, the DCEU has used it ad nauseum in my opinion. 
> 
> Let Cheetah feel fast. We should barely be able see most of her movements. She's a force of nature and she needs to be shown that way. *We all remember seeing Faora fight those soldiers in MoS and how awesome it was because she was fast and the movie let her be fast. That's what I want.*


I like the way you put this and agree. I don't have a particular issue with slow motion, but Faora was natural and Wonder Woman did have quite a few slo-mo parts that I think we should see less of in WW2.

----------


## Gaastra

Midnight edge talks about all the rumors and future.

----------


## Gaastra

Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.

In other words bvs 2.

----------


## Gaastra

As for the shazzam costume.  I think it looks great.  Really close to the comics.  Film looks like it might be really fun.

----------


## Jabare

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


if this is true, which is highly suspect given the source, I kind of want to see that film. Pretty interesting direction

----------


## BlackClaw

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


Justice League was crap. But after seeing this, man, we might have still gotten hit by a bullet but we dodged a freaking hydrogen bomb. I honestly believe those old reports of the original cut of the film being unwatchable.

----------


## Jabare

The movie might be okay or straight up terrible but I kind of what to see it. For a modern day mainstream superhero film that seems bleak as hell.

Batman doesn't seem to fear off, but Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Superman. Jeeeeez. Cyborg actually seems like a more realistic take, but the Whedon cut defiantly made Cyborg more fan friendly to bad they couldn't give him a decent costume and just went with the full CGI.

I just feel like DC should have known what they were getting with Snyder and made that film. Better to sink $250 million on production and let it tank than spend around $500M on production and still watch it tank

----------


## BlackClaw

> The movie might be okay or straight up terrible but I kind of what to see it. For a modern day mainstream superhero film that seems bleak as hell.
> 
> Batman doesn't seem to fear off, but Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Superman. Jeeeeez. Cyborg actually seems like a more realistic take, but the Whedon cut defiantly made Cyborg more fan friendly to bad they couldn't give him a decent costume and just went with the full CGI.
> 
> I just feel like DC should have known what they were getting with Snyder and made that film. Better to sink $250 million on production and let it tank than spend around $500M on production and still watch it tank


Yeah, but the damage had already been done to this universe long before Justice League bombed. It's gonna take a hell of a lot for the DCEU to win audiences trust back, even with early positive reactions to Aquaman and anticipation for the Wonder Woman sequel.

----------


## nightrider

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


pretty sure this isn't true. wonder woman saving the building wasn't reshot and you could tell because there were behind the scenes showing the whole fight scenes for WW.

----------


## Gaastra

> let it tank than spend around $500M on production and still watch it tank
> Yeah, but the damage had already been done to this universe long before Justice League bombed. It's gonna take a hell of a lot for the DCEU to win audiences trust back, even with early positive reactions to Aquaman and anticipation for the Wonder Woman sequel.


Aquaman and shazzam look like a good start and I know people threw a fit about bay making lobo but he fits that film so well.  Lobo is about lots of explosions, bad jokes and mindless fun and that's what bay does.  He is a good choice.

If true that jla cut sounds a lot like watchmen in tone.

Also can anyone guess what news john campea has?  Looks like he has big news about the dcu but won't tell anyone.

----------


## Colossus1980

I hope they release the Snyder cut.  Definitely would watch it.

----------


## Jabare

> Aquaman and shazzam look like a good start and I know people threw a fit about bay making lobo but he fits that film so well.  Lobo is about lots of explosions, bad jokes and mindless fun and that's what bay does.  He is a good choice.
> 
> If true that jla cut sounds a lot like watchmen in tone.
> 
> Also can anyone guess what news john campea has?  Looks like he has big news about the dcu but won't tell anyone.


wait Michael Bay is making Lobo?! What?!

----------


## Vanguard-01

> wait Michael Bay is making Lobo?! What?!


Last we heard, he's only in talks.

----------


## Carabas

> wait Michael Bay is making Lobo?! What?!


Apparently yes. I don't see anything good coming out of this.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

If Bay does Lobo it probably won't be anytime soon since he has a new film "6 Underground" currently scheduled to begin production in 2019, and he's also in talks to direct the adaptation of Robopocalypse.

Yes, I know, he must have a thing for these robot explosion films.

----------


## Robotman

I hope Black Panthers success doesnt end up hurting Aquamans movie. The story arcs are very similar. A man who is destined to be king of a mythical land, a rival who feels pasted over for the top spot, at one point his own army will turn against him.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I hope Black Panther’s success doesn’t end up hurting Aquaman’s movie. The story arcs are very similar. A man who is destined to be king of a mythical land, a rival who feels pasted over for the top spot, at one point his own army will turn against him.


There's a fair chance the Trench will also appear in some way, so add a mysterious third-party threat.

Plus, there's Black Manta's involvement.

----------


## Frontier

> I hope Black Panther’s success doesn’t end up hurting Aquaman’s movie. The story arcs are very similar. A man who is destined to be king of a mythical land, a rival who feels pasted over for the top spot, at one point his own army will turn against him.


I think one difference is that the dynamic is kind of going to be flipped on it's head since Orm will be the "rightful king" before Arthur turns up in Atlantis, and Arthur probably won't want to be king until very late in the movie.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I hope Black Panther’s success doesn’t end up hurting Aquaman’s movie. The story arcs are very similar. A man who is destined to be king of a mythical land, a rival who feels pasted over for the top spot, at one point his own army will turn against him.


I think the disappointment of BvS and JL will affect it far more.

----------


## Pinsir

> "Heroes" vs Monster I'd say Pacific Rim is better CGI.


That is more 'robot vs monster,' though on second thought the troll fight in the first LOTR film may be better. Its just an issue with how actors contend with an object that isn't physically there, often forcing the creators to CGI the actors in as well. In MoS there is a lot of that, including one scene where Zod kicks Superman and the camera zooms in on a digital Zod being replaced by Michael Shannon. I seem to recall JL having the same problem too, but I've only seen that film once.




> Are you saying the CGI was kinda crap but it wasn't noticeable because it was dark?


No, just that the darkness hid the inherent problems with cgi.

----------


## Robotman

> I think the disappointment of BvS and JL will affect it far more.


Yeah I’m definitely expecting Aquaman to be negatively effected by Justice League. I really hope it gets good word of mouth and “has legs” because the opening weekend may be kinda weak.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I think the disappointment of BvS and JL will affect it far more.


Nope. Whole different creative team. Zack Snyder's name will be nowhere to be found. James Wan hasn't made a bad movie in his entire career and people really like him. 

And even for all it's disappointments, Aquaman was considered one of the best parts of the movie in much the same way that Wonder Woman was in BvS. 

Movie audiences are perfectly capable of differentiating between this movie and the past ones. They did it with Wonder Woman. They can do it here too.

The only thing we have to fear for this movie is if WB once again takes the hatchet to it.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Nope. Whole different creative team. Zack Snyder's name will be nowhere to be found. James Wan hasn't made a bad movie in his entire career and people really like him. 
> 
> And even for all it's disappointments, Aquaman was considered one of the best parts of the movie in much the same way that Wonder Woman was in BvS. 
> 
> Movie audiences are perfectly capable of differentiating between this movie and the past ones. They did it with Wonder Woman. They can do it here too.
> 
> The only thing we have to fear for this movie is if WB once again takes the hatchet to it.


Wonder Woman was affected. It opened to only 104 million odd dollars. In comparison Black Panther opened to 201 million dollars. Wonder Woman is a cultural icon. And a woman lead. It should have opened much higher as it was her first film. Look how a middle tier hero opened due to his cultural importance of being a black lead.

Thankfully the film was very good. Audiences loved it. And while there was no build up for her which should have been there due to her cultural importance (woman lead/cultural icon like Batman and Superman) the film exceeded all expectations. 4x multiplier is rare in this age. 

I am hoping that your words are right. But i am skeptical. The film will not have a huge opening unless they have an excellent marketing campaign. And the film has to wow the critics and audiences. Aquaman's task is clear.

----------


## Johnny

> I hope Black Panthers success doesnt end up hurting Aquamans movie. The story arcs are very similar. A man who is destined to be king of a mythical land, a rival who feels pasted over for the top spot, at one point his own army will turn against him.


The only thing I can see really affecting Aquaman is the fact it comes out 4 days before Mary Poppins. Black Panther had basically zero competition.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Wonder Woman was affected. It opened to only 104 million odd dollars. In comparison Black Panther opened to 201 million dollars. Wonder Woman is a cultural icon. And a woman lead. It should have opened much higher as it was her first film. Look how a middle tier hero opened due to his cultural importance of being a black lead.
> 
> Thankfully the film was very good. Audiences loved it. And while there was no build up for her which should have been there due to her cultural importance (woman lead/cultural icon like Batman and Superman) the film exceeded all expectations. 4x multiplier is rare in this age. 
> 
> I am hoping that your words are right. But i am skeptical. The film will not have a huge opening unless they have an excellent marketing campaign. And the film has to wow the critics and audiences. Aquaman's task is clear.


Women in general tend to wait for good reviews and word of mouth for a film before rushing to watch it (unless it is a fangirl driven franchise like Twilight).

Wonder Woman's opening was straight up impressive, especially for a superhero who hadn't been established as a cinematic property previously. The way the film grew into a cultural phenomenon during its run was what drove Disney/Marvel to pull all the stops with Black Panther's marketing. They had a blueprint in WW's success and wanted to replicate it.

There was also the fact that _Black Panther_ and what Wakanda stood for were even more groundbreaking than _Wonder Woman_, so its impact was multiplied. WW sequel has great potential to have a bigger opening though.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I hope Black Panthers success doesnt end up hurting Aquamans movie. The story arcs are very similar. A man who is destined to be king of a mythical land, a rival who feels pasted over for the top spot, at one point his own army will turn against him.





> There's a fair chance the Trench will also appear in some way, so add a mysterious third-party threat.
> 
> Plus, there's Black Manta's involvement.


Not to mention a departed parental figure (as Mera was talking about Atlanna in past tense in _Justice League_) and a love interest who is a spy of sorts. Comparisons will be unavoidable.

Having said that, I think Mera, the prominence of her role in the movie, and her dynamics with Arthur will be what helps the movie stand out from the crowd the most (other than the underwater and aquatic visual effects).

----------


## Gaastra

> That is more 'robot vs monster,' though on second thought the troll fight in the first LOTR film may be better. Its just an issue with how actors contend with an object that isn't physically there


Bob Hoskins did it best in roger rabbit.  He even took mime class to help!




> The only thing I can see really affecting Aquaman is the fact it comes out 4 days before Mary Poppins. Black Panther had basically zero competition.


Bumblebee, battle angel, and holms and Watson come out the same day (bumblebee and battle angel both are aimed for the same crowd as aquaman) plus Spider-Man spider-verse, mortal engines, fantastic beasts 2, and wreck it ralph 2 will be out as well and the queen movie comes out a week later. So it has tons of competition.

Yeah black panther had little to fight it.  Tomb raider, pacific rim 2 and ready player one comes up next so it won't be in first place much longer.

----------


## Johnny

> Bumblebee, battle angel, holms and Watson come out the same day plus Spider-Man spider-verse, mortal engines, fantastic beasts 2, and wreck it ralph 2 will be out as well and the queen movie comes out a week later.


If Aquaman gets a really good reception, I can only see Mary Poppins presenting a real challenge to its box office. The king is gonna curb stomp all those other jabronis into oblivion.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously, I'm aware there's a lot of competition, but I'm honestly worried primarily about Mary Poppins.

----------


## Colossus1980

> I think the disappointment of BvS and JL will affect it far more.


Suicide Squad rated lower and was right after BvS yet still made over 300M.  JL rated higher and was right after the highly rated Wonder Woman yet was box office disappointment.  This makes me wonder how SS 2 will perform.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Suicide Squad rated lower and was right after BvS yet still made over 300M.  JL rated higher and was right after the highly rated Wonder Woman yet was box office disappointment.  This makes me wonder how SS 2 will perform.


We’ll have to wait and see, but personally I don’t think it looks too good. I honestly won’t be surprised if it ends up making less than the first thanks to the DCEU’s track record.

----------


## Confuzzled

Too early to say how Suicide Squad 2 will do especially as we still have to see how Aquaman, Shazam and Wonder Woman 2 will be received.

It may decrease in North America from the first film but overseas it could actually increase as China was excluded the last time around.

----------


## Gaastra

Part 2.

----------


## Johnny

Look at that gorgeous thumbnail man, I don't even want to click on it.

----------


## Frontier

> Look at that gorgeous thumbnail man, I don't even want to click on it.


If only the DCEU looked as good as that thumbnail  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Scorsese and Todd Phillips should consider Tommy Wiseau for their Joker.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## The_Lurk

> Apparently yes. I don't see anything good coming out of this.


Curious, why? Its not like I'm a Bay fan but given his "SciFi setting with Muscle Men, Babes and lots of Explosions" _expertise_ I think hes perfect for Lobo*** *if* he does not shy away from adding some occasional gory violence. Some film-makers just seem to be a perfect match for certain characters or story lines. As much as I do not like the dark twists of Snyders DC movies and think its good he does not helm DCEU anymore (although not the utterly classless way it happened) I do think he would be a great choice for twisted dark tales like Flashpoint or Kingdom Come (aka MoS2****; Cavill should be look the proper age when they finally get to make it :P ).

***90ys (and current Rebirth) Metalhead Lobo; not the... whatever that experiment was supposed to be in-between.
****If a realistic sooner MoS2 is around I vastly prefer someone continuing the more optimistic JL Superman.

----------


## Carabas

> Curious, why? Its not like I'm a Bay fan but given his "SciFi setting with Muscle Men, Babes and lots of Explosions" _expertise_ I think hes perfect for Lobo*** *if* he does not shy away from adding some occasional gory violence. Some film-makers just seem to be a perfect match for certain characters or story lines. As much as I do not like the dark twists of Snyders DC movies and think its good he does not helm DCEU anymore (although not the utterly classless way it happened) I do think he would be a great choice for twisted dark tales like Flashpoint or Kingdom Come (aka MoS2****; Cavill should be look the proper age when they finally get to make it :P ).
> 
> ***90ys (and current Rebirth) Metalhead Lobo; not the... whatever that experiment was supposed to be in-between.
> ****If a realistic sooner MoS2 is around I vastly prefer someone continuing the more optimistic JL Superman.


Because Lobo is a parody character that mocks everything Bay stands for.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Because Lobo is a parody character that mocks everything Bay stands for.


There would certainly be a great deal of dramatic irony involved if Bay were to direct a Lobo film.

I'm not sure how many people, both involved in the making of the film and it's potential audience, would actually realise such a thing though.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Suicide Squad rated lower and was right after BvS yet still made over 300M.  JL rated higher and was right after the highly rated Wonder Woman yet was box office disappointment.  This makes me wonder how SS 2 will perform.


Suicide Squad wasn't a Snyder movie which had completely different characters outside of a momentary Batman appearance.  Wonder Woman wasn't a Snyder movie.  There is a tie there that most can see outside of a select few defenders.   Aquaman is much more tied to BvS and JL so there is reason to be doubtful not about the movie's critical reception but about its commercial success.  WB should be very conservative on what to expect from SS2.  To think it will open the same as the original is a bit naive.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Lightning Rider

Images from "Snyder Cut" deleted scenes (shots shared by Snyder on social media). The link has captions.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/03/12/j...snyder-photos/

----------


## Lightning Rider



----------


## Frontier

> Images from "Snyder Cut" deleted scenes (shots shared by Snyder on social media). The link has captions.
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/03/12/j...snyder-photos/


Oh hey Iris and nerd Barry...

----------


## The_Lurk

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


 :EEK!: 

Holy moley; thats even more dreadful then I had imagined and I was considering giving Snyder the benefit of doubt after his "will never be as dark again" promise after BvS! Thank you Joss and give me an extended Whedon Cut anytime!




> There would certainly be a great deal of dramatic irony involved if Bay were to direct a Lobo film.
> 
> I'm not sure how many people, both involved in the making of the film and it's potential audience, would actually realise such a thing though.


I certainly did not. It looked like a perfect match; actually still unsure why it might not work out. I always imagined Bay being just in for the fun of it; would not though he might be offended by doing something that cranks it up to 11 as a form of parody.

----------


## Agent Z

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


Comics Aquaman as comic relief? What comics has this guy read? 

Also, that doesn't sound like an evil Superman at all.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


I can see why the Zack Snyder fan club is so eager to see this version of the movie.  It's the thing they eat up and what everyone else hated about Batman v Superman.  Guess Snyder never learned.
At least Warner Bros. had the good sense to finally put their foot down and say enough it enough.  Lord only knows what the critics would have done to that version.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I can see why the Zack Snyder fan club is so eager to see this version of the movie.  It's the thing they eat up and what everyone else hated about Batman v Superman.  Guess Snyder never learned.


I mean, his fans keep encouraging him, so how's he to know he's doing something wrong? I know a dude who said he didn't find Superman interesting before _Man of Steel_. Said bro is not even a jerk, he's a pretty swell guy all around. So it's just subjective tastes. It's not really different from Miller's TDKR-verse interpretations of these characters. It's just that WE don't want that.

----------


## Robotman

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


Holy crap if this is legit it sounds as if the movie would have been far worse than what we got. If I had watched that Wonder Woman scene in the theater I would have considered walking out. 
I’m really happy they cut out Cyborg going full on Ben Grimm. I’ve heard that in the Snyder cut, Victor gets disfigured in a car accident while driving with his parents. An accident that he is partially responsible for that ends up killing his mom. Jeezus and you thought Cyborg’s story was a downer before. 
The Flash with a developmental disorder. Wtf?!?

The only thing I’m still upset about is the fact that they cut out Darkseid. Steppenwolf was pretty lame and was obviously intended to be the sample before the main event. Instead he was made to be the only threat.

----------


## Korath

Considering that Whedon reshoot made the film a terrible mess, I would take the Snyder cut, no matter how dark it may be over what we got. At least it wouldn't be tone deaf half of the time, and would actually look grandiose and epic. I also find it laughable that people would find depressing to see someone who is essentially an apatride struggling with his situation and coping with it by drinking to forget (Aquaman) pretty much what's wrong with super-hero movie audiences : they want stupid things, without deep message, just jokes, explosions and one-liners. And that's terrible.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Considering that Whedon reshoot made the film a terrible mess, I would take the Snyder cut, no matter how dark it may be over what we got. At least it wouldn't be tone deaf half of the time, and would actually look grandiose and epic. I also find it laughable that people would find depressing to see someone who is essentially an apatride struggling with his situation and coping with it by drinking to forget (Aquaman) pretty much what's wrong with super-hero movie audiences : they want stupid things, without deep message, just jokes, explosions and one-liners. And that's terrible.


Not a big fan of the DARKNESS! but I partially agree with this. It seems like we ended up with the *worst of both worlds*. Maybe it would have been better if they had just committed to Snyder's take.

Now before someone says BvS was received worse than JL, I'd like to point out that execs interfered in BvS too, though not to the extent of JL. I also think some things like Barry with a developmental disorder would have been embraced by underrepresented groups, which would have garnered the character some positive attention.

----------


## Barbatos666

Um Zack Snyder is seen as a pretentious director who makes films for teenagers while pretending that they're complex. This is the reputation the man enjoys in Hollywood.

Critics, academy etc all hate his work even though they love dark complex films.

----------


## Carabas

> Considering that Whedon reshoot made the film a terrible mess, I would take the Snyder cut...


A different kind of terrible mess. It not being a terrible mess was just not in the cards.

----------


## Barbatos666

> A different kind of terrible mess. It not being a terrible mess was just not in the cards.


Indeed and I think not releasing the Snyder cut is a strategic move. It may have been equally terrible as Whedon but the Whedon version reinforces WB and DCEU moving on from Snyder and his vision fot the DCEU. That's why WB took the bullet.Imagine boring drunk Aquaman getting released, the blowback would have been felt by his solo film. They're hoping that they've stopped the cancer from spreading.

----------


## Korath

> Indeed and I think not releasing the Snyder cut is a strategic move. It may have been equally terrible as Whedon but the Whedon version reinforces WB and DCEU moving on from Snyder and his vision fot the DCEU. That's why WB took the bullet.Imagine boring drunk Aquaman getting released, the blowback would have been felt by his solo film. They're hoping that they've stopped the cancer from spreading.


If the Whedon part of the movie is what the DCEU will be, I fail to see why I should go and pay to watch their movies. To have reskined versions of the MCU ? Then, better to simply go and cherry pick the movies I want to see from Marvel, which I already do. I really, really, disliked the Whedon parts of the movie, they were full of stupid things and generally lacked the epicness and gravitas that Snyder managed to inject in MoS and BvS. While Aquaman was all "booyah" in the movie, it failed to entice me to go and watch his movie, I'll just go there because I read his comics and love them. And Flash was terrible in the movie, without any redeeming moment, since Whedon purposely added one (the Russian familiy) to completely undermine Barry saving them with Superman's most ridiculous scene (carrying a building as if it was some sort of doll house).

----------


## Carabas

> Indeed and I think not releasing the Snyder cut is a strategic move. It may have been equally terrible as Whedon but the Whedon version reinforces WB and DCEU moving on from Snyder and his vision fot the DCEU. That's why WB took the bullet.Imagine boring drunk Aquaman getting released, the blowback would have been felt by his solo film. They're hoping that they've stopped the cancer from spreading.


Well, I do not believe there is such a thing as a finished, ready-to-go, all effects completely done, Snyder cut. And if I were WB I would not spend  even more money to release another version that people almost certainly won't like either.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Um Zack Snyder is seen as a pretentious director who makes films for teenagers while pretending that they're complex. This is the reputation the man enjoys in Hollywood.
> 
> Critics, academy etc all hate his work even though they love dark complex films.


Is it really hard to believe that there are people who like his work and are not in denial or delusional? I don’t see why Zack should be punished for not appealing to the lowest common denominator who expects humor every 5 minutes in superhero films or believing that audiences shouldn’t need evething spoon fed to them.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Is it really hard to believe that there are people who like his work and are not in denial or delusional? I dont see why Zack should be punished for not appealing to the lowest common denominator who expects humor every 5 minutes in superhero films or believing that audiences shouldnt need evething spoon fed to them.


My favorite CBMs are TDKT, Logan, X-Men 1 & 2, Spider-Man 1 & 2, X-Men First Class & X-Men Days of the Future     
Past, Superman 1 & 2. Then MCU films like Winter Soldier, Iron Man 1 and Civil War. Thats how I round up my top 15. 

Snyder films are not even in the same ball park as the other non MCU films on my list.
They are on par with Joel Schumacher Batman films. Except those were campy while these are edgy. 

If Snyder's films are so complex and brilliant then why do critics hate them? Those guys love artsy films. Truth is that Snyder is Bay without the self awareness.

----------


## Barbatos666

> If the Whedon part of the movie is what the DCEU will be, I fail to see why I should go and pay to watch their movies. To have reskined versions of the MCU ? Then, better to simply go and cherry pick the movies I want to see from Marvel, which I already do. I really, really, disliked the Whedon parts of the movie, they were full of stupid things and generally lacked the epicness and gravitas that Snyder managed to inject in MoS and BvS. While Aquaman was all "booyah" in the movie, it failed to entice me to go and watch his movie, I'll just go there because I read his comics and love them. And Flash was terrible in the movie, without any redeeming moment, since Whedon purposely added one (the Russian familiy) to completely undermine Barry saving them with Superman's most ridiculous scene (carrying a building as if it was some sort of doll house).


Well ofcourse if you dont want to watch them then thats your choice. But its clear that Wonder Woman is their guiding light.

----------


## Korath

> Well ofcourse if you dont want to watch them then thats your choice. But its clear that Wonder Woman is their guiding light.


And Wonder Woman is as far as possible from Whedon and the MCU style as possible. There wasn't many jokes to kill the tension, and the was a very serious undertone (if some things which were sometimes strange, like calling the main German enemy Luddendorff, since he is a relatively well known name here in Europe and it left me dubitative of where the movie was going at first).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If Snyder's films are so complex and brilliant then why do critics hate them? Those guys love artsy films.


For non-CBM's, yes. For superhero films? Not as much, IMO.

----------


## AquaLantern

> If Snyder's films are so complex and brilliant then why do critics hate them? Those guys love artsy films. Truth is that Snyder is Bay without the self awareness.


All I said that his films are different than the norm. I never said Snyder films were brilliant or complex so don’t put words in my mouth.

----------


## Soubhagya

Some of them actually sound neat. An alcoholic Aquaman sounds good. Cyborg's story sounds interesting. Not a fan of Superman's story. But it makes sense within the context of the story. Might have even turned out good. Superman resisting temptations and winning sounds quite interesting then the final product. Barry Allen with mental difficulties seems too dark and disturbing. I don't like it. It would have depended on execution. Might have been good. Might be the worst thing for a superhero film. I don't know. I don't find Diana failing to save the people as bad. It parallels Superman in BvS. Its dark. But not bad to me. Batman's suicidal turn makes sense. He was almost half mad in BvS anyway. Provided they are true. How would i know that it isn't some guy who have half-cooked a story for click bait. People will believe him as Zack Snyder goes dark. I don't know if its true.  

Overall, some are good ideas. Some i am unsure of. It would at least be an interesting film. I would pay to watch that. Personally, i am happy with the film we got. I had a great time in the theater. All the people whom i have talked to personally said that it was an enjoyable film. Not on the level of MCU films, but still good. 

I can totally see the reason of WB's cold feet. BvS had shown if you do 'serious' and don't do it good enough it backfires. I think WB did the right thing. It would have been much better had  they changed directors immediately after BvS's reception. Or delayed the release of Justice League. It would have been a better film then.

----------


## Confuzzled

One reason I can see the decision to show Diana as "human" and failing to save people as bad is not because it is an inherently bad idea, but due to the fact that it is too soon in Wonder Woman's  existence in cinematic films and on the public radar for most people (especially younger demos not as familiar with the 70's show and international audiences who were not familiar with the character before the DCEU) to deconstruct her like that.

At least Superman and Batman were established as almighty heroes on the big screen decades ago, so audiences would understand that portraying them as "fallible" and not as invincible is a different take, but in Wonder Woman's case, people who are just beginning to get to know her will think that the character is generally not THAT efficient if she fails this early.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Also more on the syder cut. No shock it was a depressing dark movie with a drunk aquaman, evil superman, depressed cyborg, wonder woman, and batman, and mentally challenged flash.
> 
> In other words bvs 2.


Haven't gotten a chance to watch the video, but, from what people have said, I'd be interested in seeing it. I can't say it'd be better or worse than the version we got, but it sounds like it would've been a whole different animal. I guess that 20% Whedon reshot was basically all the important stuff, leaving Snyder the filler material.

Whether it's a Snyder cut or an extended Whedon cut, I want there to be some expanded form of the film. I loved it as-is, warts and all, but I really just want more, especially considering we likely won't get a JL2 for a long, long while.

----------


## Wandering_Wand

> Haven't gotten a chance to watch the video, but, from what people have said, I'd be interested in seeing it. I can't say it'd be better or worse than the version we got, but it sounds like it would've been a whole different animal. I guess that 20% Whedon reshot was basically all the important stuff, leaving Snyder the filler material.
> 
> *Whether it's a Snyder cut or an extended Whedon cut, I want there to be some expanded form of the film. I loved it as-is, warts and all, but I really just want more, especially considering we likely won't get a JL2 for a long, long while.*


In bold exactly sums up how I feel. 
I loved the movie because of the characters: it was JUSTICE LEAGUE! 
I didn't love the movie because of how hacked it was and it's clear the original vision was messed with. I saw yet another rumor not long ago that at least 30% of the movie was either re-written or re-shot to get Joss screenplay credits. 30% is actually pretty significant. I definitely want Snyder's cut way more than extended Joss version, but at this point, i want more screen time for the League, period. 

Having said that, I've been torn: I don't want to buy JL out of principle, but I'll probably end up buying the darn movie anyway. 

Also, I want to see Zack's rumored versions. It tells a story of these heroes having human moments, not being able to save everyone all of the time and battling their own demons. Then, when Superman returns, the rebirth, the Sun shines and they all bring out the best out of each other. You can see these layers were once present in the original movie, but were stripped.

----------


## Barbatos666

> And Wonder Woman is as far as possible from Whedon and the MCU style as possible. There wasn't many jokes to kill the tension, and the was a very serious undertone (if some things which were sometimes strange, like calling the main German enemy Luddendorff, since he is a relatively well known name here in Europe and it left me dubitative of where the movie was going at first).


Well then that's a good thing right? The message simply was to show that the Snyder days are over. Whedon himself has no project or influence.

----------


## Barbatos666

> For non-CBM's, yes. For superhero films? Not as much, IMO.


Those same critics loved Logan, TDKT and a bunch of X-Men films. This is just not true at all. They practically drool for meaningful cbms.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises were loved by the critics.  In fact that might have been a negative for WB, because they got it in their heads that all the DC characters should be Batman
and encouraged Snyder to go down that path with Superman. And then had an even more messed up in the head Batman.  And if the video is legit, apparently Cyborg, Aquaman, and Flash too.

----------


## Carabas

> All I said that his films are different than the norm.


That is not the same as good or well made or complex or watchable.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Those same critics loved Logan, TDKT and a bunch of X-Men films. This is just not true at all. They practically drool for meaningful cbms.


Please reread my comment again. I said, *not as much*, not *in every case*.

----------


## The_Lurk

Some good news for a change regarding JL: apparently the (German) Amazon 3d Steelbook Special is sold out and has been for a week or so. At least thats what I make out of it cannot be pre-ordered anymore.

----------


## Hawkman

Umberto Gonzalez (@elmayimbe), who apparently writes for some comic book film news site called "Heroic Hollywood," posted a pic of Hawkman on his Twitter feed, fueling a rumor that Hawkman and Hawkgirl are getting their own flick.

I'm not usually one for highly unconfirmed rumors of this nature, but I like this one, so I'm inclined to believe it. :Big Grin:

----------


## Sandfall

> Those same critics loved Logan, TDKT and a bunch of X-Men films. This is just not true at all. They practically drool for meaningful cbms.


The recent comments from Iron-Man 1 writer and the marvel climate,  Logan, TDKT and a bunch of X-Men films would not have been praised today if they were just starting out as unknown properties. they would have been shunned for been serious and not  like not all superheroes movies though superhero movies are not exactly like we are forced to believe right now.

----------


## Frontier

> Umberto Gonzalez (@elmayimbe), who apparently writes for some comic book film news site called "Heroic Hollywood," posted a pic of Hawkman on his Twitter feed, fueling a rumor that Hawkman and Hawkgirl are getting their own flick.
> 
> I'm not usually one for highly unconfirmed rumors of this nature, but I like this one, so I'm inclined to believe it.


Not that I'd mind, but with all the re-structuring and unsteady ground the DCEU is currently in, I'd be surprised to see them greenlight a Hawks movie.

----------


## AquaLantern

> That is not the same as good or well made or complex or watchable.


Well there are people who believe his films are good. Just because critics say its bad doesnt mean I should change my viewpoint.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well there are people who believe his films are good. Just because critics say it’s bad doesn’t mean I should change my viewpoint.


Especially when there have been numerous films originally panned by critics that later were deemed good.

----------


## Carabas

> Well there are people who believe his films are good.


There are also people who say the earth is flat and that the moon landing didn't happen. Or that Greg Land is a great artist.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Umberto Gonzalez (@elmayimbe), who apparently writes for some comic book film news site called "Heroic Hollywood," posted a pic of Hawkman on his Twitter feed, fueling a rumor that Hawkman and Hawkgirl are getting their own flick.
> 
> I'm not usually one for highly unconfirmed rumors of this nature, but I like this one, so I'm inclined to believe it.


I'd love that.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There are also people who say the earth is flat and that the moon landing didn't happen. Or that Greg Land is a great artist.


So I am Flat Earther because I and others liked the films? Please tell me you're joking.

----------


## Carabas

> So I am Flat Earther because I and others liked the films? Please tell me you're joking.


There is a huge difference between liking a film and it actually being good. Plenty of people seem to love what Michael Bay does.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> There is a huge difference between liking a film and it actually being good. Plenty of people seem to love what Michael Bay does.


There is also a huge difference between being able to enjoy a nevertheless flawed series of films and believing that the Earth is flat. That doesn't equate at all.

That prior statement was either just a joke on your behalf or incredibly arrogant.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There is a huge difference between liking a film and it actually being good. Plenty of people seem to love what Michael Bay does.


I like the films and think they're good (which doesn't mean they're masterpieces, before someone makes a comment to that effect in rebuttal), despite my not believing the moon landing wasn't faked. As for Bay, I'm not sure I have a seen a complete film of his to give a critique one way or the other.

----------


## AquaLantern

> There are also people who say the earth is flat and that the moon landing didn't happen. Or that Greg Land is a great artist.


Are you saying people are wrong to like Zack Snyder’s work? Because that’s what I feel like you’re implying.

I don’t get why Tyler Perry keeps getting work because I can’t stand his films, but I’m have no problem with those who enjoy those films. Why? Because I have better things to do that doesn’t include being a Debbie Downer on others’ enjoyment.

Wouldn’t surprise me if you were one of Mr Plinkett fans who goes out of their way to show why fans of the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy are wrong for loving those films as well.




> There is a huge difference between liking a film and it actually being good. Plenty of people seem to love what Michael Bay does.


What you consider good is different to others. For example some believe it was good that The Force Awakens paid homage to the OT. Others felt that it was a complete ripoff that it made the actions of OT heroes overall a pointless waste of time and a huge mistake for the sequel trilogy.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> I like the films and think they're good (which doesn't mean they're masterpieces, before someone makes a comment to that effect in rebuttal), despite my not believing the moon landing wasn't faked. As for Bay, I'm not sure I have a seen a complete film of his to give a critique one way or the other.


I can't believe that we still have to make that clarification on here to be honest. The whole 'Yeah, I know they're flawed but....' thing. No-one's ever asserted otherwise on here as far as I'm aware. We all know that WB has struggled with this series.

Is there any form of mass entertainment out there that is 100% faultless? The vast majority of stuff out there you could pick apart if it pleased a person to do so.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I can't believe that we still have to make that clarification on here to be honest. The whole 'Yeah, I know they're flawed but....' thing. No-one's ever asserted otherwise on here as far as I'm aware. We all know that WB has struggled with this series.
> 
> Is there any form of mass entertainment out there that is 100% faultless? The vast majority of stuff out there you could pick apart if it pleased a person to do so.


Yeah, is there a CBM remotely close to being really great in the sense that, i.e., _On The Waterfront_ (my pick for greatest film of all-time) is? I like a lot of them, but they're not up to that level (or necessarily need to be, IMO).

----------


## BatmanJones

> There is a huge difference between liking a film and it actually being good. Plenty of people seem to love what Michael Bay does.


There actually isn't a difference at all. All art is subjective. There's no such thing as objectively good art. If you like it, it's good to you. If you don't, it's bad to you.

If you could posit any reliable metric of what makes any piece of art "good," I'd love to know about it, because it doesn't exist.

You can measure critic responses but all critic responses are subjective too. So are box office numbers. So are Oscars. Every metric for judging art is a subjective one.

As a person that works in the arts for a living I know that the only important opinion is the one that each individual person has since one can only judge any form of art according to one's own inherent biases.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Umberto Gonzalez (@elmayimbe), who apparently writes for some comic book film news site called "Heroic Hollywood," posted a pic of Hawkman on his Twitter feed, fueling a rumor that Hawkman and Hawkgirl are getting their own flick.
> 
> I'm not usually one for highly unconfirmed rumors of this nature, but I like this one, so I'm inclined to believe it.


People need to differentiate between the idea that a film is being pitched to the studio and the film actually ever getting made.  You all remember the fate of the movies _Superman Lives_ and _Batman Triumphan_t, don't you?
Or more recently _Batgirl._ And those are just the ones we are aware of.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> There actually isn't a difference at all. All art is subjective. There's no such thing as objectively good art. If you like it, it's good to you. If you don't, it's bad to you.
> 
> If you could posit any reliable metric of what makes any piece of art "good," I'd love to know about it, because it doesn't exist.
> 
> You can measure critic responses but all critic responses are subjective too. So are box office numbers. So are Oscars. Every metric for judging art is a subjective one.
> 
> As a person that works in the arts for a living I know that the only important opinion is the one that each individual person has since one can only judge any form of art according to one's own inherent biases.


Of course, if one believes Larry Buchanan is the greatest director of all-time, then he or she is obviously suspect.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Barbatos666

> The recent comments from Iron-Man 1 writer and the marvel climate,  Logan, TDKT and a bunch of X-Men films would not have been praised today if they were just starting out as unknown properties. they would have been shunned for been serious and not  like not all superheroes movies though superhero movies are not exactly like we are forced to believe right now.


Logan just came out last year man, come on.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Logan just came out last year man, come on.


I'd say timing is a factor but it also has to do with the characters involved. Wolverine is expected by general audiences to be in that kind of film.

----------


## Barbatos666

> I'd say timing is a factor but it also has to do with the characters involved. Wolverine is expected by general audiences to be in that kind of film.


Wolverine's first film got awful reviews and the second one from Logan director got favorable but not great reviews. Ebert in particular when he was alive was scathing of Wolverine as a character and what his films entail.

----------


## Soubhagya

There was a discussion about this in another thread. Are DC films getting bad reviews because they are serious? 

I know where i stand. Logically this argument has no standing. What about Wonder Woman? It had a couple of laughs but compared to most MCU films its humor was more subdued. 

The best explanation was given by some person whom i said won the thread. Roger Ebert calls 'Some Like It Hot' a great movie. His list of greats include the likes of Raging Bull and Apocalypse Now. Its not about the tone of the film. Its about how well they execute what the film makers are trying. If a period drama does not touch one's heart's strings its useless. Just as a comedy which can't make you laugh. But a comedy which makes you laugh is far better then a serious film which can't make you feel the drama. 

I will add two cents of my own. In comedy we don't care so much about its story or themes or something like that. If it makes you laugh and have a good time it has succeeded in its attempt. But if its dramatic then it is seen with more scrutiny. 

Our perception about what is good or bad varies in many ways from the general audiences and the critics. That Justice League flashback scene of Green Lantern's ring flying away would be awesome. But that means nothing to someone who isn't a DC comics fan. Similarly, we value different things differently. For example this scene.




That scene of Superman rescuing people in BvS, may look majestic to person A. Making it a great scene for him or her. For person B it might be empty and soulless, which granted looks beautiful but is a futile exercise in trying to hammer Superman into a modern day Jesus. Among the group of persons B, some will find it okay. Not bad. Others would be frustrated that it isn't subtle at all. They would hate it.

A film is a sum of its parts. Sum of its scenes. So, different people have different experiences. That is why its so difficult to make a good film even if some directors or studios make it look easy by doing it more number of times. Because what is good varies from person to person. And they have to somehow make a film which is considered as good by most people. 

Both Logan and Avengers are great superhero films in their own right. At least that's the consensus of people in general.

----------


## Confuzzled

I think this video perfectly explains why Zack Snyder's visuals don't quite have the impact on many people despite his painstaking efforts to ensure they are awesome and beautiful:

----------


## Elmo

Regardless of how people feel about Snyder he posed questions and ideas for the mythology of superheroes that we had not seen before. 

This article from last month summed it up perfectly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b6d51525212

----------


## Carabas

> Regardless of how people feel about Snyder he posed questions and ideas for the mythology of superheroes that we had not seen before. 
> 
> This article from last month summed it up perfectly:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b6d51525212


That's behind a paywall. Can you give us the cliff notes version?

----------


## Carabas

> I think this video perfectly explains why Zack Snyder's visuals don't quite have the impact on many people despite his painstaking efforts to ensure they are awesome and beautiful...


And that is why Zack Snyder's Watchmen feels like it was made by somebody who studied the book, but only looked at the pictureds and didn't actually read it.

Here is my favourite clip that shows how Zack Snyder objectively does not know how to make movies. Or at least not complex, serious ones that are any good.

----------


## Gaastra

> I don’t get why Tyler Perry keeps getting work because I can’t stand his films, but I’m have no problem with those who enjoy those films. Why? Because I have better things to do that doesn’t include being a Debbie Downer on others’ enjoyment.


Tyler perry wasn't put in charge of a big budget series that wb wanted to compete with Disney and make a billion.  His movies tend to cost nothing to make.

With that said there is nothing wrong with liking the "dcu" films.  It's the same as liking chuck Norris 80s films and 70s ninja films.  Everyone has films they love others don't. What annoys me is the hardcore dcu fans that attack marvel and come up with every excuse they can why the films failed other then they are bad films!

I love krull but I know it's a bad film that bombed.  I'm fine with that and won't get mad if someone else hates it.  It's a guilty pleasure.  I won't attack neverending story over it.  BVS and justice league can be guilty pleasures also but you have to accept most folks hated bvs or thought jl was "ok".

And yes marvel fans attacking dcu fans stink also.  Attack the film all you want if it stinks but don't attack the fans.  They didn't make the movie.

Ouch I fell off my soapbox.  I'll go now.

----------


## AquaLantern

> I love krull but I know it's a bad film that bombed.  I'm fine with that and won't get mad if someone else hates it.  It's a guilty pleasure.  I won't attack neverending story over it.  BVS and justice league can be guilty pleasures also but you have to accept most folks hated bvs or thought jl was "ok".
> 
> And yes marvel fans attacking dcu fans stink also.  Attack the film all you want if it stinks but don't attack the fans.  They didn't .


My point is that just because others call BvS a bad film, and I believe it’s a good film, I’m not going to changing my stance on that statement to satisfy them.

If people enjoy the films for whatever reason, don’t be that one guy to pressure them to forcibly change their opinion.

Also I feel no guilt or remorse for enjoying Zack Snyder’s contribution to the DCEU.

----------


## Rincewind

> Regardless of how people feel about Snyder he posed questions and ideas for the mythology of superheroes that we had not seen before. 
> 
> This article from last month summed it up perfectly:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b6d51525212


That doesn't mean he is a good director.  X-Men: The Last Stand brought up several moral and ethical questions not seen in any other superhero movie.  It asks whether a person would choose to remove an aspect of their identity to better fit in with society and if they should have that choice at all.  Each character has to think about what being a minority means to them.  Unfortunately it was directed by Brett Ratner.  Few people on Earth would call The Last Stand a good movie even though it asks questions not seen before.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Tyler perry wasn't put in charge of a big budget series that wb wanted to compete with Disney and make a billion.  His movies tend to cost nothing to make.
> 
> With that said there is nothing wrong with liking the "dcu" films.  It's the same as liking chuck Norris 80s films and 70s ninja films.  Everyone has films they love others don't. What annoys me is the hardcore dcu fans that attack marvel and come up with every excuse they can why the films failed other then they are bad films!
> 
> I love krull but I know it's a bad film that bombed.  I'm fine with that and won't get mad if someone else hates it.  It's a guilty pleasure.  I won't attack neverending story over it.  BVS and justice league can be guilty pleasures also but you have to accept most folks hated bvs or thought jl was "ok".
> 
> And yes marvel fans attacking dcu fans stink also.  Attack the film all you want if it stinks but don't attack the fans.  They didn't make the movie.
> 
> Ouch I fell off my soapbox.  I'll go now.



Yes, i hate it when they do that. You have an awesome MCU, why beat upon DCEU. Any fan of comic book movies will be happy with Marvel and Fox and wish WB get their act together. 

Now, Marvel is not the only away. Look at X-Men series of Fox for fans of more serious takes of Snyder. As well as the recent Black Panther. Its possible to succeed by not pandering to the lowest common denominator as such fans say.





> My point is that just because others call BvS a bad film, and I believe it’s a good film, I’m not going to changing my stance on that statement to satisfy them.
> 
> If people enjoy the films for whatever reason, don’t be that one guy to pressure them to forcibly change their opinion.


Yep. I agree with you. Its not possible to change one's opinion by hearing opposing opinions. I have heard that Man of Steel is terrible. I can't change my opinion. I thought it was good. I think the film had issues, but the good far outweighed the bad.

----------


## Jekyll

I’m hoping DC’s solo films will fare better than their team flicks. I am pretty excited for both Aquaman and Shazam!

----------


## BlackClaw

> I’m hoping DC’s solo films will fare better than their team flicks. I am pretty excited for both Aquaman and Shazam!


Same. And I’m praying the Aquaman movie will finally kill the guys Superfriends stigma once and for all. But my dream DCEU film would be a Static Shock movie directed by Rick Famuyiwa.

----------


## Naked Bat

> Tyler perry wasn't put in charge of a big budget series that wb wanted to compete with Disney and make a billion.  His movies tend to cost nothing to make.
> 
> With that said there is nothing wrong with liking the "dcu" films.  It's the same as liking chuck Norris 80s films and 70s ninja films.  Everyone has films they love others don't. What annoys me is the hardcore dcu fans that attack marvel and come up with every excuse they can why the films failed other then they are bad films!
> 
> I love krull but I know it's a bad film that bombed.  I'm fine with that and won't get mad if someone else hates it.  It's a guilty pleasure.  I won't attack neverending story over it.  BVS and justice league can be guilty pleasures also but you have to accept most folks hated bvs or thought jl was "ok".
> 
> And yes marvel fans attacking dcu fans stink also.  Attack the film all you want if it stinks but don't attack the fans.  They didn't make the movie.
> 
> Ouch I fell off my soapbox.  I'll go now.


I seldom post here. I'm more or a lurker. And I don't think I'm one to attack the MCU even though I would say I'm not the target audience for *most* of their movies.

But when I see such a condescending post, It makes me want to post. 

It's your right not to like Bvs or MOS. It's your right to say so. It's also your right to think those are bad movies. 

But to claim they are objectively bad movies and basically implying people can only appreciate those movies as guilty pleasures (meaning they are bad or we are moron to sincerely love them) is simply disrespectful. 

The same goes for Carabas stance by the way. 

I would never claim a MCU fan is wrong to like these movies or is wrong to think they are good. Because I'm not pretentious enough to think I own the truth about what a good movie is.

However, I know what a good movie is *to me*. To me, BvS is an amazing movie, with a lot of layers, and I enjoy watching it even more each time. 

I'm sad by the way WB treated Snyder like a nobody. You may not like his movies, but he's someone with a true identity, and his works are bold and ambitious. 

On a personal level, I would rather have bold and ambitious, if flawed movies, than movies that play it safe, even though they may have less flaws. This is why I love comic books. There are a lot of creators who do their damn best to use the medium in the best ways possible, using the most formidable imagination and are trying to push the boundaries of the genre. There are also creators who are expert at their crafts but won't try to push the boundaries. And it's great. 

But I'm convinced we should strive to applaud creativity and ambition. And in that reard, there, imo, few directors as comic booky as Zack Snyder. And BvS is a testament to that.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Regardless of how people feel about Snyder he posed questions and ideas for the mythology of superheroes that we had not seen before. 
> 
> This article from last month summed it up perfectly:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b6d51525212


That writer had no clue what they were talking about one saying Tony Stark is a plot devise and not a person in the MCU is just crazy Tony has had one of the best character progressions of a comic character on film his reasons for changing always due to the experiences of his life.

As for the "Questions" Snyder Asked like how would the world react to a god amongst men in Man of Steel he asked that with Watchmen and credit goes to Alan Moore not Snyder.

Next Batman learning he's now at the bottom of the food chain in BvS that's a major part of every X-Men movie with humanity coming to grips with that very question. 

That sounded less like an article and more a press release from Snyder's Publicist.

----------


## Soubhagya

> I seldom post here. I'm more or a lurker. And I don't think I'm one to attack the MCU even though I would say I'm not the target audience for *most* of their movies.
> 
> But when I see such a condescending post, It makes me want to post. 
> 
> It's your right not to like Bvs or MOS. It's your right to say so. It's also your right to think those are bad movies. 
> 
> But to claim they are objectively bad movies and basically implying people can only appreciate those movies as guilty pleasures (meaning they are bad or we are moron to sincerely love them) is simply disrespectful. 
> 
> The same goes for Carabas stance by the way. 
> ...


I have to agree with you even if i am not a Snyder fan. Its one thing to say people in general did not like it which appears to be true. But its another thing to impose. I say BvS was a bad film, but i can't say you have to accept it that its bad. If people are trying this way then its not possible to reach any kind of understanding. We keep moving in circles. Its not possible to change someone's experience like that.

What we can understand is that films are subjective. You think a film is good. Nice. You think a film is bad. That's nice too. Then we can get into discussions about why it is good or bad. That's a more fruitful discussion.

----------


## Naked Bat

> I have to agree with you even if i am not a Snyder fan. Its one thing to say people in general did not like it which appears to be true. But its another thing to impose. I say BvS was a bad film, but i can't say you have to accept it that its bad. If people are trying this way then its not possible to reach any kind of understanding. We keep moving in circles. Its not possible to change someone's experience like that.
> 
> What we can understand is that films are subjective. You think a film is good. Nice. You think a film is bad. That's nice too. Then we can get into discussions about why it is good or bad. That's a more fruitful discussion.


Exactly. And while I may not always agree with your posts, I know you are part of the people who are always respectful of other's opinion.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Regardless of how people feel about Snyder he posed questions and ideas for the mythology of superheroes that we had not seen before. 
> 
> This article from last month summed it up perfectly:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b6d51525212


I agree with some stuff. Not with others. 

Tony Stark has a personality and character. To say it does not exist is erroneous. I don't understand what this Marvel indoctrination thing is. And the hero defeat a bad guy and save the world is a standard superhero trope. It exists in both DC and Marvel films. 

But i agree that Snyder did try something different and interesting. I applaud the effort. Wish it had turned out better reception wise. Wish i liked those films a bit more. But what is done is done. I am glad that you enjoy them.

----------


## Gaastra

Wasn't trying to get everyone mad.  Sorry I posted it guys.

----------


## Naked Bat

> Wasn't trying to get everyone mad.  Sorry I posted it guys.


Don't worry about that. It's something I wanted to say for a while anyway, since you're not the first person to say this kind of thing.

----------


## Tec15

I wish the upcoming Aquaman and Shazam movies had their own dedicated threads so that I would't have to go through the umpteenth rehashing of the same tedious and circular arguments, when I want to look at the latest news about those movies. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Elmo

> That doesn't mean he is a good director.  X-Men: The Last Stand brought up several moral and ethical questions not seen in any other superhero movie.  It asks whether a person would choose to remove an aspect of their identity to better fit in with society and if they should have that choice at all.  Each character has to think about what being a minority means to them.  Unfortunately it was directed by Brett Ratner.  Few people on Earth would call The Last Stand a good movie even though it asks questions not seen before.


okay but I literally said "regardless of how people feel about Snyder" so that means it is without regard, AKA I don't care if you think he's a good or bad director

sorry to have confused you

----------


## Rincewind

> okay but I literally said "regardless of how people feel about Snyder" so that means it is without regard, AKA I don't care if you think he's a good or bad director
> 
> sorry to have confused you


I'm not confused.  I'm just pointing out that posing new questions and ideas is not an indicator of quality.  And I then used an non Zach Snyder movie as an example.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Zack Snyder shared another deleted scene (Cavill is in the coffin in the bottom of the pic  :Stick Out Tongue: )...

----------


## Elmo

> I'm not confused.  I'm just pointing out that posing new questions and ideas is not an indicator of quality.  And I then used an non Zach Snyder movie as an example.


still wasn't the point of my original post

----------


## Rincewind

> still wasn't the point of my original post


And yet, I still feel comfortable posting my comment.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Yes, i hate it when they do that. You have an awesome MCU, why beat upon DCEU. *Any fan of comic book movies will be happy with Marvel and Fox and wish WB get their act together.* 
> 
> Now, Marvel is not the only away. Look at X-Men series of Fox for fans of more serious takes of Snyder. As well as the recent Black Panther. Its possible to succeed by not pandering to the lowest common denominator as such fans say.


Not when folks take issue with WHO is being used.

See Michael B Jordan and Fantastic Four-folks shouldn't have to fear gun violence at a theater because certain folks take issue with a casting.

There are folks who are NOT happy with Black Panther's success. Funny how guys who don't kill in comic sales are finding success outside of it.

Or bitter Cyborg fans mad that there was hype for Panther not Cyborg. It's not the pubic's fault DC dropped the ball on Cyborg in and outside of comics.

Panther, Groot, Antman and GOTG prove comics book sales is not a key in determining outside success. And we are not near the burn out point when we look beyond the obvious choices.





> What annoys me is the hardcore dcu fans that attack marvel and come up with every excuse they can why the films failed other then they are bad films!


Like Fantastic Four? Where folks wanted Jordan run out of the industry instead of looking at everything else that ruined that film?

What folks look for are scapegoats.

Because that REALITY you speak of doesn't compute to folks.

We get too carried away in sales and who we think is ultra popular.

A film with Batman, Superman, WW, Aquaman & Flash got taken to school by a guy in a cat suit.

What does that mean big picture?

Marvel took advantage of a cry for more "representation" beyond what was being tossed out. It is paying off.

Justice League can't beat that. A bad film is not going to beat starving public and a film that was actually good.

DC fans have to call out the WB. If business was taken care of along with cleaning out the too many cooks in the kitchen.

----------


## Johnny

> See Michael B Jordan and Fantastic Four-folks shouldn't have to fear gun violence at a theater because certain folks take issue with a casting.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> 


Summed up my reaction perfectly. Don't know why the thread needed to go there.

...Oh, wait. It didn't.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Not when folks take issue with WHO is being used.
> 
> See Michael B Jordan and Fantastic Four-folks shouldn't have to fear gun violence at a theater because certain folks take issue with a casting.
> 
> There are folks who are NOT happy with Black Panther's success. Funny how guys who don't kill in comic sales are finding success outside of it.
> 
> Or bitter Cyborg fans mad that there was hype for Panther not Cyborg. It's not the pubic's fault DC dropped the ball on Cyborg in and outside of comics.
> 
> Panther, Groot, Antman and GOTG prove comics book sales is not a key in determining outside success. And we are not near the burn out point when we look beyond the obvious choices.
> ...


I don't know about fear of gun violence but i agree with you. Representation is sorely needed in comic book films as well as in comic books. And Batman, Superman can all succeed if the films are really good. 

Black Panther had a lot of stuff going on. Similarly, Wonder Woman who is considered an A-list character. Likes of Guradians and BP have shown that being a relatively obscure character isn't a problem.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Marvel took advantage of a cry for more "representation" beyond what was being tossed out. It is paying off.


It's good that they are getting around to it and it's paying off, but on the movie front it took them a while. DC actually beat them to it and seemed to try to respond to it by going with Wonder Woman, whereas the MCU isn't going to have a female lead movie until Captain Marvel comes out (the *21st* movie). We STILL don't have a Black Widow movie. Black Panther is incredibly important and a game changer, but it is also *18* movies in. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman is getting a sequel and Jason Momoa isn't another white dude. DC has some work to do with their overall quality, but Marvel has less excuses for waiting so long to get these rolled out after being successful for so long. Widow should have gotten a Phase 2 film.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Still don't understand why a team up movie is disqualified from being an example of representation.  Before Wonder Woman and Black Panther there was Suicide Squad which had a black man, a Hispanic man, 
and four women, two white, one black, and one Japanese, as lead characters, in addition to some white men.  Is the only reason it doens't count is because the critics didn't like it?   It certainly made good
 box office so somebody liked it. Suicide Squad had more diversity than Wonder Woman and Black Panther combined.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Still don't understand why a team up movie is disqualified from being an example of representation.  Before Wonder Woman and Black Panther there was Suicide Squad which had a black man, a Hispanic man, 
> and four women, two white, one black, and one Japanese, as lead characters, in addition to some white men.  Is the only reason it doens't count is because the critics didn't like it?   It certainly made good
>  box office so somebody liked it. Suicide Squad had more diversity than Wonder Woman and Black Panther combined.


Suicide Squad is the most diverse CBM that's ever hit the screens, with Harley and El Diablo being the standouts.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Ava DuVernay to Direct DC’s Superhero Epic ‘New Gods’:* http://variety.com/2018/film/news/av...dc-1202725043/

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> *Ava DuVernay to Direct DC’s Superhero Epic ‘New Gods’:* http://variety.com/2018/film/news/av...dc-1202725043/


I'm 50% elated, 50% terrified!

Oh sweet gods!!

----------


## Johnny

Orion is gonna be woke af.

----------


## nightw1ng

I haven't seen Ava DuVernay's A Wrinkle in Time yet, but given its mixed reviews and an opening box office weekend that fell short of expectations, this doesn't exactly have me excited.

----------


## Robotman

very excited. The New Gods concept isn't well known outside of comics circles so they may need to cast some big name stars for the roles.

----------


## nightw1ng

Of all DC's properties, the New Gods is one of the easiest to massively screw up.  It lacks even the slightest bit of familiarity that other DC properties have, and the wild, less grounded concepts will need a really great script to make it relatable.  I imagine they were hoping the DCEU would be firmly established and more well-liked before they attempted this, but I guess it's now or never.

----------


## byrd156

> Orion is gonna be woke af.


That actually made me laugh at loud. Thanks for that.

----------


## Carabas

Oh god, this is going to be just completely terrible, isn't it?

WB, you can't even do Batman right. Learn to just simply walk without falling over before trying to do a decathlon.

----------


## Elmo

> Oh god, this is going to be just completely terrible, isn't it?
> 
> WB, you can't even do Batman right. Learn to just simply walk without falling over before trying to do a decathlon.


what is your basis for this

if all you're going to do is be negative and doubt WB why do you even post ITT

----------


## Carabas

> what is your basis for this


I have watched most DCEU movies.

And most of the times even the comics get the New Gods horribly wrong.

----------


## Frontier

> *Ava DuVernay to Direct DC’s Superhero Epic ‘New Gods’:* http://variety.com/2018/film/news/av...dc-1202725043/


I mean, Ava DuVernay seems like the kind of visionary director you need to realize the New Gods on-screen, but I'm not going to put a lot of stock in DC pulling this off when they can barely even get the DCEU going.

----------


## Jabare

> *Ava DuVernay to Direct DCs Superhero Epic New Gods:* http://variety.com/2018/film/news/av...dc-1202725043/


this is an inspired pick I guess.

Still idk what DC is thinking as their universe is being critically bashed left and right outside of Wonder Woman. Idk how they can get enough moment to knock it out of the park

----------


## Johnny

DuVernay is no Patty Jenkins. But she isn't the worst person for this job either.

----------


## Elmo

> DuVernay is no Patty Jenkins.


what does that even mean

ava is an award winning director whose films have had immense impact among African American cultures and broken new ground for African American and female filmmakers and writers

if anything she is of a much higher caliber and status than Jenkins and is arguably far more talented

----------


## Johnny

> what does that even mean
> 
> ava is an award winning director whose films have had immense impact among African American cultures and broken new ground for African American and female filmmakers and writers
> 
> if anything she is of a much higher caliber and status than Jenkins and is arguably far more talented


Well for one, Jenkins proved she knows how to do a fantasy-based adventure superhero film. DuVernay on the other hand didn't do a very good job with her fantasy adventure film. Her race bares no relevance to this topic.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> DuVernay is no Patty Jenkins. But she isn't the worst person for this job either.


What's so great about Patty, again? I enjoyed WW, but it was a typical superhero movie.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's good that they are getting around to it and it's paying off, but on the movie front it took them a while. DC actually beat them to it and seemed to try to respond to it by going with Wonder Woman, whereas the MCU isn't going to have a female lead movie until Captain Marvel comes out (the *21st* movie). We STILL don't have a Black Widow movie. Black Panther is incredibly important and a game changer, but it is also *18* movies in. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman is getting a sequel and Jason Momoa isn't another white dude. DC has some work to do with their overall quality, but Marvel has less excuses for waiting so long to get these rolled out after being successful for so long. Widow should have gotten a Phase 2 film.


To be fair....a Black Widow movie? For what reason?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> To be fair....a Black Widow movie? *For what reason?*


any excuse for a movie about a nice looking lady in a tight catsuit beating up fools is a good excuse :P

----------


## Johnny

> What's so great about Patty, again? I enjoyed WW, but it was a typical superhero movie.


The fact that she made a great superhero movie. The only one in the DCEU so far. I will be rooting for Ava and despite my current skepticism, hope she ends up making a great superhero movie too.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> any excuse for a movie about a nice looking lady in a tight catsuit beating up fools is a good excuse :P


Is there enough there for a movie, tho? Also, would it be Mission Impossible good? Would it have Atomic Blonde action? If not, then there's no point. You can get what you described in other movies about female Marvel characters with powers.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> The fact that she made a great superhero movie. The only one in the DCEU so far. I will be rooting for Ava and despite my current skepticism, hope she ends up making a great superhero movie too.


It wasn't great. It was good, tho, but nothing memorable.

IMO, it's the 3rd best DCEU movie. 

With Ava, Idk. I'll wait to see how far this progresses. The tone will be determined by the writers and actors she gets.

----------


## Frontier

> any excuse for a movie about a nice looking lady in a tight catsuit beating up fools is a good excuse :P


I mean, isn't that part of the appeal of Superheroes in general to some degree  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Elmo

> Well for one, Jenkins proved she knows how to do a fantasy-based adventure superhero film. DuVernay on the other hand didn't do a very good job with her fantasy adventure film. Her race bares no relevance to this topic.


I never even mentioned her race. I'm talking about her talent as an artist not her background or ethnicity. DuVernay has more experience as a filmmaker, just because someone else made a "better film" in the same genre doesn't make them comparable. Besides the only reason you are comparing the two of them is the fact that they're both women which in itself is sexist. "She's no Patty Jenkins" AKA "this female director doesn't live up to this other female director" placing them in a completely separate category from male directors when they should be all in the same category.

----------


## Robotman

i wonder how they're gonna pull off Barda, what with her being close to 7 feet tall. 

i just hope they are true to the source material. the Mother Boxes in Justice League didn't have any of the classic Kirby circuitry or designs. they need to make Scott, Barda, and Orion look comic accurate!

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*‘Making Sense of The Latest THE BATMAN Rumblings’:* https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/03...man-rumblings/

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It wasn't great. It was good, tho, but nothing memorable.
> 
> IMO, it's the 3rd best DCEU movie.


See, but the problem with this is you are completely wrong.

----------


## Johnny

> I never even mentioned her race. I'm talking about her talent as an artist not her background or ethnicity.


You said: "ava is an award winning director whose films have had immense impact among African American cultures and broken new ground for African American and female filmmakers and writers"

Her films being inspirational for black or female filmmakers or writers, while admirable, is redundant and has nothing to do with this discussion.




> DuVernay has more experience as a filmmaker, just because someone else made a "better film" in the same genre doesn't make them comparable.


Sure it does. This is about the superhero genre, where Jenkins is proven success, while DuVernay has one attempt at fantasy that bombed. Being skeptical towards her directing a DC movie is completely normal in this situation.




> Besides the only reason you are comparing the two of them is the fact that they're both women which in itself is sexist. "She's no Patty Jenkins" AKA "this female director doesn't live up to this other female director" placing them in a completely separate category from male directors when they should be all in the same category.


I've noticed in discussions with you that you seem to love to put words in people's mouths to suit your own narrative. I will humor you anyway, I compared her to Jenkins because she's the only director for the DCEU so far that has achieved both critical and commercial success with her movie. Would it make sense to compare her to Snyder or Ayer? No. James Wan and David F. Sandberg's DC films haven't been released yet. Who else is there to compare DuVernay to other than Jenkins? So yes, she's clearly no Patty Jenkins.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> See, but the problem with this is you are completely wrong.


"Completely wrong."

Hmm...nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right.

 :Big Grin:

----------


## Jabare

so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


1) Wonder Woman
2) Justice League
3) Man of Steel
4) Suicide Squad
5) Batman v Superman

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


My personal ranking:

1. Wonder Woman
2. Man of Steel
3. Batman vs. Superman

...

...

...

...

...

4. Josstice League
5. Suicide Squad

tbh Man of Steel and Wonder Woman swap for best depending on my mood. Same thing applies for Josstice League and Sqwad as worst.

----------


## Confuzzled

> this is an inspired pick I guess.
> 
> Still idk what DC is thinking as their universe is being critically bashed left and right outside of Wonder Woman. Idk how they can get enough moment to knock it out of the park


It's clearly going to take cues from _Wonder Woman_ regarding a central female protagonist and women warriors (Barda and the Furies respectively). I think it is going to focus on Barda's relationship with Scott Free and their escape from Apokolips. 

Ava DuVernay had said on Twitter a few months back that her favorite superhero was Big Barda. That and Barda's inclusion in the Amber Heard video about the "Most Famous DC Women" should have been signs that this announcement was coming. It's funny how all these "insider" fan sites keep giving unsubstantiated leaks but were clueless regarding _actual planned DC projects_ like New Gods.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


Well, I think it's...

1) MoS
2) BvS:UE
3) WW
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
4) JL
5) SS

I just find the first two more nuanced, is all. I feel there way more heart in those movies, despite also being flawed.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's clearly going to take cues from _Wonder Woman_ regarding a central female protagonist and women warriors (Barda and the Furies respectively). I think it is going to focus on Barda's relationship with Scott Free and their escape from Apokolips. 
> 
> Ava DuVernay had said on Twitter a few months back that her favorite superhero was Big Barda. That and Barda's inclusion in the Amber Heard video about the "Most Famous DC Women" should have been signs that this announcement was coming. It's funny how all these "insider" fan sites keep giving unsubstantiated leaks but were clueless regarding _actual planned DC projects_ like New Gods.


That's fine, but Barda better not be elevated in terms of the role she's to play. It's Scott and Orion that should be the leads, with her as a strong secondary character (like Akoye, or Shuri).

----------


## Confuzzled

> That's fine, but Barda better not be elevated in terms of the role she's to play. It's Scott and Orion that should be the leads, with her as a strong secondary character (like Akoye, or Shuri).


Umm, why? The New Gods have never been about just one or two characters.

I wouldn't be surprised if Orion and New Genesis are downplayed in the first film as it would be too much to have them play major roles in an already complicated story with dozens of characters and world/mythology building on Apokolips itself.

Focusing on Barda and Scott and introducing Darkseid and setting up his plans for future movies is more than enough.

----------


## Jabare

> Well, I think it's...
> 
> 1) MoS
> 2) BvS:UE
> 3) WW
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Idk if you can count the Ultimate Edition. That's not what was released in theaters. I feel like that is almost a separate film that stands apart from the theatrical, but maybe that is just me

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Umm, why? The New Gods have never been about just one or two characters.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Orion and New Genesis are downplayed in the first film as it would be too much to have them play major roles in an already complicated story with dozens of characters and world/mythology building on Apokolips itself.
> 
> Focusing on Barda and Scott and introducing Darkseid and setting up his plans for future movies is more than enough.


I guess that's fine, but that's assuming this will be a saga of movies. 

However, my initial thought of a New Gods movie was always about Scott surviving, from childhood to man, and then inspiring Barda to escape with him. GG and the Furies would be the main antagonists, and all we'd get of Darkseid would be his voice in Scott's nightmares, as well as those eyes, and his symbol.

----------


## Agent Z

> To be fair....a Black Widow movie? For what reason?


About the same reason to have an Antman movie, Dr Strange movie or Guardians of the Galaxy movie.

----------


## Soubhagya

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


1. Wonder Woman
2. Man of Steel
3. Justice League
4. Batman v Superman

Haven't watched Suicide Squad. Very soft  list. I enjoyed Justice League a lot at first but it wasn't as good as Man of Steel in retrospect. And Man of Steel while a good film has number of flaws making me mixed to positive towards it. Though the good far outweighs the bad. The only really good film is Wonder Woman. And BvS is interesting. But a bad film in my opinion.

----------


## Agent Z

> You said: "ava is an award winning director whose films have had immense impact among African American cultures and broken new ground for African American and female filmmakers and writers"
> 
> Her films being inspirational for black or female filmmakers or writers, while admirable, is redundant and has nothing to do with this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it does. This is about the superhero genre, where Jenkins is proven success, while DuVernay has one attempt at fantasy that bombed. Being skeptical towards her directing a DC movie is completely normal in this situation.
> 
> 
> ...


A Wrinkle In Time is not a bomb. It has acceptable opening numbers given it's budget. it will come down to how big the drop next week is.

Yeah DuVernay has no experience in the superhero genre. Neither did most directors who made good superhero films before they were given a shot. One movie with mixed reviews at best does not taint DuVernay's track record.

----------


## Agent Z

> Umm, why? *The New Gods have never been about just one or two characters.*
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Orion and New Genesis are downplayed in the first film as it would be too much to have them play major roles in an already complicated story with dozens of characters and world/mythology building on Apokolips itself.
> 
> Focusing on Barda and Scott and introducing Darkseid and setting up his plans for future movies is more than enough.


Sadly they have been since the 90s with Darkseid getting the lion's share of focus. If we're lucky, Orion and Scott Free get some spotlight too.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> About the same reason to have an Antman movie, Dr Strange movie or Guardians of the Galaxy movie.


That's not the same. All three of those movies do something a Black Widow movie doesn't give us.

Shrinking, Magic, and Space Adventure. Unless I'm getting Atomic Blonde/John Wick caliber action (which we won't), or Mission Impossible caliber stunts (which we won't), what's the point? It'll look mundane, and insignificant, with the MCU, and amongst the best of the spy/assassin genre.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Sadly they have been since the 90s with Darkseid getting the lion's share of focus. If we're lucky, Orion and Scott Free get some spotlight too.


Yeah, I'm a relatively new reader, and this is my impression of these characters lol.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's not the same. All three of those movies do something a Black Widow movie doesn't give us.
> 
> Shrinking, Magic, and Space Adventure. *Unless I'm getting Atomic Blonde/John Wick caliber action (which we won't), or Mission Impossible caliber stunts (which we won't),* what's the point? It'll look mundane, and insignificant, with the MCU, and amongst the best of the spy/assassin genre.


Why are you assuming we won't be getting any of this with the Black Widow movie? Not to mention we still have stuff like espionage, the Red Room, intelligence gathering that hasn't really been dealt with in most superhero movies.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I guess that's fine, but that's assuming this will be a saga of movies.


It will be a saga if the first one is a hit.  :Smile: 




> However, my initial thought of a New Gods movie was always about Scott surviving, from childhood to man, and then inspiring Barda to escape with him. GG and the Furies would be the main antagonists, and all we'd get of Darkseid would be his voice in Scott's nightmares, as well as those eyes, and his symbol.


Same, but it would be good to put enough focus on Barda too because it is as much her story and her motivations are more captivating (while Scott Free was living in hell and needed to escape, Barda throws away everything she had simply for Scott).

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Why are you assuming we won't be getting any of this with the Black Widow movie? Not to mention we still have stuff like espionage, the Red Room, intelligence gathering that hasn't really been dealt with in most superhero movies.


IMO, I've yet to see anything in the MCU that gives credence to them making a Black Widow movie on the caliber of the movie I've mentioned.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It will be a saga if the first one is a hit. 
> 
> 
> 
> Same, but it would be good to put enough focus on Barda too because it is as much her story and her motivations are more captivating (while Scott Free was living in hell and needed to escape, Barda throws away everything she had simply for Scott).


Fair enough.

----------


## Moonwix

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


Man of steel.
BvS and wonder woman.
-
-
-
-
a far longer gap.

Suicide squad. 
Justice league. -this to me was just the worse, ruined all the characters and damaged the DC brand. Good reason why it boomed at the box office.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> That's fine, but Barda better not be elevated in terms of the role she's to play. It's Scott and Orion that should be the leads, with her as a strong secondary character (like Akoye, or Shuri).


This is a Big Barda movie in disguise.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> It wasn't great. It was good, tho, but nothing memorable.
> 
> IMO, it's the 3rd best DCEU movie.


Wonder Woman was pretty great. Tops of the DCEU, which is why it will now be the model of the DCEU.  It's now the house that Diana built.

----------


## Naked Bat

I'm really excited about this one. For one, not a lot of people know the fourth world, so they won't have expectations that won't be met. Also, people are longing for huge costumed epics, like Game of Thrones. They could totally sell the movie in that way. Not only do you have the war between new genesis and Apokolips, but you also have Scott and Barda's romance, Orion's destiny, the forever people.. this is such a huge sandbox... The potential is incredible. 

I refuse to become jaded. Granted, I'm disappointed in how WB treated Zack snyder, and I wish we could have the real justice league movie, but I have high hopes for a new gods movie. 

also, to the person who said Thor Ragnarok was the most kirbiesque movie ever, I'm not sure Kirby would appreciate a story that is nothing more than  a bunch of dumb jokes and one liners. He took storytelling seriously.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> A Wrinkle In Time is not a bomb. It has acceptable opening numbers given it's budget. it will come down to how big the drop next week is.
> 
> Yeah DuVernay has no experience in the superhero genre. Neither did most directors who made good superhero films before they were given a shot. One movie with mixed reviews at best does not taint DuVernay's track record.


To expand on that, how many Superhero films had Christopher Nolan done before _Batman Begins_?  Patty Jenkins before Wonder Woman, Ryan Coogler before _Black Panther_, Jon Favreau before _Iron Man_

----------


## Confuzzled

Russo Brothers didn't even have any blockbuster experience before Winter Soldier I think.

----------


## Johnny

> Yeah DuVernay has no experience in the superhero genre. Neither did most directors who made good superhero films before they were given a shot. One movie with mixed reviews at best does not taint DuVernay's track record.


Mixed reviews at best? It has a 40% RT score, same as Justice League. Though it is funny how the media tries to make excuses for it. Justice League has 40 and is seen as dumpster fire, Wrinkle has 40 and is seen as "wildly ambitious". I don't recall saying she shouldn't be given a shot, I said I was skeptical.

----------


## Johnny

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


1) Wonder Woman
2) Man of Steel
3) Justice League
4) Batman v Superman
5) Suicide Squad

----------


## BlackClaw

> Wonder Woman was pretty great. Tops of the DCEU, which is why it will now be the model of the DCEU.  It's now the house that Diana built.


Agreed. Hell even WB gets the picture considering that Wonder Woman in front and center on the box art for the Justice League DVD. And keep in mind we usually see Superman front and center in pictures of the league or DC characters in general.

----------


## BlackClaw

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


1. Wonder Woman
2. Man of Steel
3. Justice League 
4. Suicide Squad
5. Batman vs Superman

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


1. Wonder Woman
2. Man of Steel (Meh)
And that's it no need to see the rest.

----------


## Jokerz79

My ranking of the DCEU is from best to worst 

1: Wonder Woman.
2: Justice League.
3: Suicide Squad.
4: BvS (Ultimate Cut).
5: Man of Steel (To be fair I would say it's a better movie than BvS or SS but I enjoy them more).

The Theatrical Cut BvS is the absolute bottom and just a mess IMO.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> To be fair....a Black Widow movie? For what reason?


Why have a movie for any of these characters? Because it makes bank. She's just as capable of being a lead as any of the others, and she's already popular enough that people want the movie.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Why have a movie for any of these characters? Because it makes bank. She's just as capable of being a lead as any of the others, and she's already popular enough that people want the movie.


I want a Black Widow film but also to be fair 1 there was the Perlmutter factor for a long time and 2 every film they have made in the last ten years has helped build their larger universe all building to the trailer they just dropped today which might be the biggest film of 2018. The only two films one could argue didn't add to the building of Infinity War were Ant-Man and Spider-Man Homecoming but who knows if Ant-Man would had happened if not ironically for Edgar Wright and Homecoming was all about them wanting Spidey in the MCU and giving Sony their movie to do it.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


!. _Wonder Woman_
2. _Justice League_
3a. _Man of Steel_
3b. _Batman v Superman: Ultimate Edition_
5. _Suicide Squad_ (though I never saw it)

I have MoS and BvS tied. Sue me.

As for _New Gods_, I love it. I haven't seen any of her movies, but it's good that she's got some mainstream credibility (she did direct _Selma_, after all) and seems to be a fan of the characters. _A Wrinkle in Time_ also seems to be visually ambitious, and that's something I think is a necessity when adapting the New Gods: the fact that we haven't seen any comic book movie emulate/utilize Kirby dots is a freaking crime.

As for story, I imagine Big Barda and Mister Miracle will take center stage, and they should. Have Orion (and maybe Lightray) play a backup role with a cameo by Highfather, who would drop heavy hints about Darkseid. Granny Goodness and the Furies would be the villains. Setting would mostly be New Genesis with flashbacks (and maybe a final set piece) on Apocalips.

And, yes, I think they should acknowledge Steppenwolf's defeat on Earth in _Justice League_. Maybe have the post-credits scene be of him and that horde of parademons being boomed to Apocalips to be detained/punished by Kalibak. Maybe show Darkseid to give the fandom a nerd-rection.

As you can tell, I'm pretty psyched by the possibilities.

----------


## Hawkman

> so what is the order of DCEU movies from best to worst?


For me:

1. _Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice_
2. _Man of Steel_
3. _Justice League_
4. _Wonder Woman_
5. _Suicide Squad_

----------


## WillieMorgan

1) Wonder Woman - Gold Standard.
2) Batman v. Superman: Dawn Of Justice - A film that I absolutely loved despite it's obvious flaws. The good parts of this movie totally drowned out the bad for me.
3) Justice League - The same as above but much less so. The fact that WB made the same mistakes with this as BvS severely grated with me at the time. I do enjoy what we got but it SHOULD have been better.
4) Man Of Steel - A couple of things in this movie make me uncomfortable. Overall though, it managed to achieve it's objective of rebooting Superman on the big screen.
5) Suicide Squad - Certainly the worst DCEU movie. A film that was inferior to the sum of it's parts.

They are all perfectly watchable films for me though. Although flawed, the DCEU is nowhere near the vile assault on the senses that some make it out to be.

----------


## Hawkman

> They are all perfectly watchable films for me though. Although flawed, the DCEU is nowhere near the vile assault on the senses that some make it out to be.


I agree with this, too. Even _Suicide Squad_, the least enjoyable of the bunch for me, entertained me enough to get two theatrical viewings out of me. These movies aren't perfect by any stretch, but the hyperbole they manage to elicit from some of their harshest critics is just laughable, in my opinion.

----------


## Nite-Wing

New Gods should probably be fast tracked by WB 
Ava Duvernay is probably the biggest director they have attracted so far now if she manages to turn a really hard concept that JL utterly butchered and correct the ship 
She should probably helm the rest of the new god spinoffs

----------


## skyvolt2000

I know this is not really related to Dc films and shows-however this does raise a HUGE read flag.

Toy R Us is having a going out of business sale (this was one of the original 200 stores closing) and stuff is 60% off. Except for Lego and WWE stuff.

There was so MUCH DC toys laying around-WW movie, Justice League movie, Titans cartoon and ESPECIALLY DC Superhero Girls.

No one was touching it. I heard more folks look for Marvel stuff-that was down to a few dolls, a GOTG gift set, few figures and a TON of Black Widow figures for one of those games.

60% off and nobody was willing to buy it? Stuff that was $50 was now $20-yet no one wanted it?

Now aside from DC, Star Wars was in bulk (mainly Rogue One and everything that did NOT have Finn).

----------


## Carabas

> I agree with this, too. Even _Suicide Squad_, the least enjoyable of the bunch for me, entertained me enough to get two theatrical viewings out of me. These movies aren't perfect by any stretch, but the hyperbole they manage to elicit from some of their harshest critics is just laughable, in my opinion.


I find Suicide Squad the second most enjoyable one, after Wonder Woman.

Yes, it utterly sucks on a technical level. Proper editing is something that happens to other movies.

But it has enjoyable characters that are somewhat relatable even, that you can root for. And actually display more heroism than Batman and Superman. And seem to have  lot more fun doing so.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> 1. Wonder Woman
> 2. Man of Steel (Meh)
> And that's it no need to see the rest.


This is me as well, although I give MoS a Meh+

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> 1. Wonder Woman
> 2. Man of Steel
> 3. Justice League
> 4. Batman v Superman
> 
> Haven't watched Suicide Squad. Very soft  list. I enjoyed Justice League a lot at first but it wasn't as good as Man of Steel in retrospect. And Man of Steel while a good film has number of flaws making me mixed to positive towards it. Though the good far outweighs the bad. The only really good film is Wonder Woman. And BvS is interesting. But a bad film in my opinion.


This would be my order as well with SS as #5.  BvS was more complete than JL but I found more enjoyable moments in JL than in BvS.

----------


## BatmanJones

> This would be my order as well with SS as #5.  BvS was more complete than JL but I found more enjoyable moments in JL than in BvS.


Probably my order too. When I first saw JL in cinema in preview screening I could not WAIT to own it. I bought it like the minute it was available digitally. I thought I'd have watched 10 times by now but only watched once and was disappointed on second viewing. 

And now I find myself in the weird position of wishing and hoping for a very unlikely Snyder cut just so I can see another JL movie. 

I haven't enjoyed the way Snyder has handled the characters, any of them. But the Frankenstein that JL became makes me want to see a movie from one director's POV and not in the mishmash that happened for so many unfortunate reasons.

After first screening (at special preview before lifting of any embargoes) I felt sure JL was my all-time favorite superhero movie, not because I thought it was the "best" one but because it had the most and most wonderful fan service moments for me.

So my original ranking went like this:

1. Justice League
2. Wonder Woman
3. Man of Steel
4. BvS extended (theatrical cut was my least favorite DC movie of all time because of my high expectations)
5. Suicide Squad (a mess from top to bottom, a movie so flawed I wished Leto's Joker had had a bigger role though he's my least favorite portrayal of a major DC villain after Eisenberg's truly awful Luthor)

After rewatching JL, I re-rank accordingly...

1. Wonder Woman
2. Man of Steel
3. Justice League
4. BvS extended cut
5. Suicide Squad (stop yelling at me, DC! I already love the characters!)

----------


## Pinsir

I just rewatched JL and I still like it, its not as good as BvS or WW obviously, but its still an enjoyable flick. It really loses steam during and after the Superman resurrection part, where the obvious reshoots meddled with the film. I would love to see the Snyder cut as well, it sucks that we won't get to see his original vision come through.

----------


## Johnny

> I just rewatched JL and I still like it, its not as good as BvS or WW obviously, but its still an enjoyable flick. It really loses steam during and after the Superman resurrection part, where the obvious reshoots meddled with the film. I would love to see the Snyder cut as well, it sucks that we won't get to see his original vision come through.


How does JL compare to MoS for you? I feel like other than WW, MoS was the only DCEU film so far that I really enjoyed.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I know this is not really related to Dc films and shows-however this does raise a HUGE read flag.
> 
> Toy R Us is having a going out of business sale (this was one of the original 200 stores closing) and stuff is 60% off. Except for Lego and WWE stuff.
> 
> There was so MUCH DC toys laying around-WW movie, Justice League movie, Titans cartoon *and ESPECIALLY DC Superhero Girls.
> *
> No one was touching it. I heard more folks look for Marvel stuff-that was down to a few dolls, a GOTG gift set, few figures and a TON of Black Widow figures for one of those games.
> 
> 60% off and nobody was willing to buy it? Stuff that was $50 was now $20-yet no one wanted it?
> ...


Your point being?

----------


## Frontier

> I know this is not really related to Dc films and shows-however this does raise a HUGE read flag.
> 
> Toy R Us is having a going out of business sale (this was one of the original 200 stores closing) and stuff is 60% off. Except for Lego and WWE stuff.
> 
> *There was so MUCH DC toys laying around-WW movie, Justice League movie, Titans cartoon and ESPECIALLY DC Superhero Girls.*
> 
> No one was touching it. I heard more folks look for Marvel stuff-that was down to a few dolls, a GOTG gift set, few figures and a TON of Black Widow figures for one of those games.
> 
> 60% off and nobody was willing to buy it? Stuff that was $50 was now $20-yet no one wanted it?
> ...


I feel like that's very hard to believe with how popular _DC Super Hero Girls_ seems to be.

----------


## Carabas

> I feel like that's very hard to believe with how popular _DC Super Hero Girls_ seems to be.


Could just be a local issue for that specific store?

Or the DC Super Hero Girls stuff indeed does sell very well, just not at real world toy stores?
Which to be fair would not be on my shortlist to even look for DC Super Hero Girls stuff if I wanted to buy some.

----------


## The True Detective

> I know this is not really related to Dc films and shows-however this does raise a HUGE read flag.
> 
> Toy R Us is having a going out of business sale (this was one of the original 200 stores closing) and stuff is 60% off. Except for Lego and WWE stuff.
> 
> There was so MUCH DC toys laying around-WW movie, Justice League movie, Titans cartoon and ESPECIALLY DC Superhero Girls.
> 
> No one was touching it. I heard more folks look for Marvel stuff-that was down to a few dolls, a GOTG gift set, few figures and a TON of Black Widow figures for one of those games.
> 
> 60% off and nobody was willing to buy it? Stuff that was $50 was now $20-yet no one wanted it?
> ...


We get it you love Marvel and hate DC, this shtick of posting about DC being unpopular and Marvel being beloved has gotten stale.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I know this is not really related to Dc films and shows-however this does raise a HUGE read flag.
> 
> Toy R Us is having a going out of business sale (this was one of the original 200 stores closing) and stuff is 60% off. Except for Lego and WWE stuff.
> 
> There was so MUCH DC toys laying around-WW movie, Justice League movie, Titans cartoon and ESPECIALLY DC Superhero Girls.
> 
> No one was touching it. I heard more folks look for Marvel stuff-that was down to a few dolls, a GOTG gift set, few figures and a TON of Black Widow figures for one of those games.
> 
> 60% off and nobody was willing to buy it? Stuff that was $50 was now $20-yet no one wanted it?
> ...


Maybe they had more DC stuff to begin with.

----------


## Agent Z

> I find Suicide Squad the second most enjoyable one, after Wonder Woman.
> 
> Yes, it utterly sucks on a technical level. Proper editing is something that happens to other movies.
> 
> But it has enjoyable characters that are somewhat relatable even, that you can root for. And actually display more heroism than Batman and Superman. And seem to have  lot more fun doing so.


The closest thing to a hero in SS is Diablo who avoids fighting for most of the movie. The Suicide Squad doesn't enjoy being heroes they enjoy killing people. And them saving the world is because that's where they keep their stuff. Superman is shown helping people before he even puts on the suit and isn't bullied or blackmailed into it. 

Not smiling or joking 24/7 does not means you are not heroic or hate your life I guess.

----------


## Agent Z

> I know this is not really related to Dc films and shows-however this does raise a HUGE read flag.
> 
> Toy R Us is having a going out of business sale (this was one of the original 200 stores closing) and stuff is 60% off. Except for Lego and WWE stuff.
> 
> There was so MUCH DC toys laying around-WW movie, Justice League movie, Titans cartoon and ESPECIALLY DC Superhero Girls.
> 
> No one was touching it. I heard more folks look for Marvel stuff-that was down to a few dolls, a GOTG gift set, few figures and a TON of Black Widow figures for one of those games.
> 
> 60% off and nobody was willing to buy it? Stuff that was $50 was now $20-yet no one wanted it?
> ...


Maybe this thread would be more appropriate to post this in 

http://community.comicbookresources....-Games/page178

----------


## Gaastra

Justice league(superman, batman, wonder woman etc) plus joker, Harley, nightwing, deadshot, robin, steppenwof and black manta confirmed for ready player one. The jla is back on the big screen.  

Of course they get to team up with other comic heroes like spawn, turtles, hellboy, he-man and --the avengers!

Yeah avengers (cap, thor, iron man, etc), bucky, gotg, big hero 6 confirmed plus sony and fox heroes wolverine, Deadpool, magneto, spider-man and dr doom!

Marvel and dc IN THE SAME MOVIE!

Note-link tells ALL the cameos so spoilers in link.

http://readyplayerone.wikia.com/wiki...yer_One_(film)

----------


## Confuzzled

> I feel like that's very hard to believe with how popular _DC Super Hero Girls_ seems to be.


Wonder Woman merch sales too gave the entire Avengers/Guardians a run for their money last year so you know that post's either bs or the fact that because those toys were selling so great, retailers were ordering even more of them.

Heck, even a divisive film like Batman v Superman was in the Top 3 movie tie-in toy sales of 2016 with Trolls and Finding Dory.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Justice league(superman, batman, wonder woman etc) plus joker, Harley, nightwing, deadshot, robin, steppenwof and black manta confirmed for ready player one. The jla is back on the big screen.  
> 
> Of course they get to team up with other comic heroes like spawn, turtles, hellboy, he-man and --the avengers!
> 
> Yeah avengers (cap, thor, iron man, etc), bucky, gotg, big hero 6 confirmed plus sony and fox heroes wolverine, Deadpool, magneto, spider-man and dr doom!
> 
> Marvel and dc IN THE SAME MOVIE!
> 
> Note-link tells ALL the cameos so spoilers in link.
> ...


Page got hijacked by a troll lol

----------


## Gaastra

Ok false alarm then.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Ok false alarm then.


No, I meant the contents of the page had been deleted by a troll when I clicked on the link. It's back up now and your info about those character cameos seems legit.

Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Killer Frost and Deathstroke are also appearing in the film apparently.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Well now the question is, will they be appearing in any of the same scenes then? :P

----------


## Styles

'The Batman' Movie to Reportedly Go Into Production in 2019

----------


## DragonPiece

> 'The Batman' Movie to Reportedly Go Into Production in 2019


Wonder how long till we find out who is playing batman

----------


## Frontier

> 'The Batman' Movie to Reportedly Go Into Production in 2019


Well, I guess that gives them enough time to figure out what they want to do with Batman.

----------


## Naked Bat

1. Batman V Superman
2. Man Of Steel
3. Wonder Woman
4.Suicide Squad/Josstice League.

----------


## Gaastra

> Well now the question is, will they be appearing in any of the same scenes then? :P


Keep in mind that this has not been fully confirmed and we have not seen the film yet so till then we should treat this as a rumor.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

The Shazam Logo revealed.

----------


## Frontier

That's a pretty sweet logo  :Cool: .

----------


## Robotman

the new Deadpool 2 trailer was released today. it's funny that i always hated Deadpool in the comics but i really enjoyed the movie. i think it was just Ryan Reynolds' comic timing and the clever script. i still don't find him funny in the actual comics but i'm looking forward to the new movie. 

i wish DC/WB would be able to create an action comedy of that level. i think Harley, as written by Palmiotti and Conner, has potential. but i have zero faith in WB's vision for the character. i'm hoping the "adult themed" Harley cartoon will bring some of that bawdy clever comedy and show WB that she is more than just eye candy.

----------


## Colossus1980

Any update on the Justice League if they will releasing any extended version?  Plan to re-watch the movie but hoping that a longer version comes out soon before I see it again.

----------


## Robotman

> Any update on the Justice League if they will releasing any extended version?  Plan to re-watch the movie but hoping that a longer version comes out soon before I see it again.


Don’t hold your breath. I don’t think WB plans to spend any more money on that disaster.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Mark Hughes from Forbes, normally a positive reporter on DC films, is saying he’s heard negative things from the Aquaman screenings. Here we go again.

https://twitter.com/batmannewscom/st...37285508837376

----------


## BlackClaw

Meh, I’m gonna reserve all judgement until I see the movie.

----------


## Naked Bat

I've kept a positive outlook for every new DC movie. So far, the only one that disappointed me is Justice League, even though I had a great time watching it both times. I'm sure I will enjoy Aquaman.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

The Justice League blu-ray has been selling rather well apparently, so WB might be inclined to release an extended cut down the line.

Anyways isn't this like the same timespan where we were getting the "Wonder Woman's a mess" test screening rumors? Just wait and see. These films pretty much go either way at this point.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Mark Hughes from Forbes, normally a positive reporter on DC films, is saying he’s heard negative things from the Aquaman screenings. Here we go again.
> 
> https://twitter.com/batmannewscom/st...37285508837376


Oh goddammit, I don't have the strength to go through this again.

Though, Wonder Woman was said to be a dumpster fire as well, and look how that turned out.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Oh goddammit, I don't have the strength to go through this again.
> 
> Though, Wonder Woman was said to be a dumpster fire as well, and look how that turned out.


Yes, yes. The Wonder Woman mis-report was the ONE time that these negative reports turned out to be not true. How much longer are we going to deny these rumblings when they have proved true now with BvS, SS and JL and not with WW? Do you have faith in WB to do this correctly? I don't.

----------


## Elmo

Pretty much every superhero movie that isn't Marvel is reported to have had a "negative reception" from a screening. Goes the same ways for Fox and Sony as it does for the DC films. it's pretty much expected every time regardless of whether the reports are true or not

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Yes, yes. The Wonder Woman mis-report was the ONE time that these negative reports turned out to be not true. How much longer are we going to deny these rumblings when they have proved true now with BvS, SS and JL and not with WW? Do you have faith in WB to do this correctly? I don't.


At the moment, my faith in WB's abilities to do the DC characters justice on the big screen is also low to non-existent. I think that the amount of aggro that went on behind the scenes regarding Justice League pretty much guaranteed that the film would disappoint though. The difficulties the studio had behind the scenes made it a little inevitable that it would be affected by off-screen problems. 

'DC movie gets negative early screen reception' clickbait is about as likely nowadays as the sun coming up at dawn tomorrow morning to be honest. Still, we'll see.

----------


## nightw1ng

Honestly, I can just imagine how much studio meddling the execs are going to do with Aquaman and Shazam.  They are pretty much the last chance for the DCEU to exist outside of Wonder Woman, and it'll be very hard for them to just sit back and have complete faith in the directors.

----------


## Johnny

Well what do they have to lose really. They saw what their meddling did more than once already. Might as well show some faith and respect towards Wan and Sandberg.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Honestly, I can just imagine how much studio meddling the execs are going to do with Aquaman and Shazam.  They are pretty much the last chance for the DCEU to exist outside of Wonder Woman, and it'll be very hard for them to just sit back and have complete faith in the directors.


One saving grace is that the man in charge (apparently) is Walter Hamada, who has worked with Wan on several films that have done well.

----------


## The_Lurk

Ppl should give a rats ass about these embarrassing pro-critics and bad rumor mill. It would not come to any surprise if down the line its revealed that some companies have a massive anti-marketing budget to make every DC movie as bad as possible except when its dangerous to themselves (cant have another female standalone Superhero movie flop or investors will back out of their own projects). According to the negative-hype-train almost every DC movie is the biggest POS created ever and yet some versions of JL where sold out from pre-orders weeks before the release and as other pointed out lead the charts in movie sales. Overall viewer ratings on amazon are very positive; hell even Green Lantern has positive ratings by actual users (and having recently watched the extended version it actually could still work as part of the DCEU if not for the major actors being either at marvel wearing red or having now other roles in DCEU).

*sigh*

He would have been great at this: https://youtu.be/F38XHGfy7nA?t=23

----------


## Jokerz79

> Ppl should give a rats ass about these embarrassing pro-critics and bad rumor mill. It would not come to any surprise if down the line its revealed that some companies have a massive anti-marketing budget to make every DC movie as bad as possible except when its dangerous to themselves (cant have another female standalone Superhero movie flop or investors will back out of their own projects). According to the negative-hype-train almost every DC movie is the biggest POS created ever and yet some versions of JL where sold out from pre-orders weeks before the release and as other pointed out lead the charts in movie sales. Overall viewer ratings on amazon are very positive; hell even Green Lantern has positive ratings by actual users (and having recently watched the extended version it actually could still work as part of the DCEU if not for the major actors being either at marvel wearing red or having now other roles in DCEU).


I'm sorry I can never buy this stuff the DCEU has earned all their critic scores Man of Steel was a divisive take on Superman and got a 55% on RT, the theatrical cut of BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League were all butchered in editing by WB and deserved poor reviews, and Wonder Woman was a genuinely good movie.

As for the MCU they're mostly fun entertaining films with coherent stories and likeable characters so people like them.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yes, yes. The Wonder Woman mis-report was the ONE time that these negative reports turned out to be not true. How much longer are we going to deny these rumblings when they have proved true now with BvS, SS and JL and not with WW? Do you have faith in WB to do this correctly? I don't.






> I'm sorry I can never buy this stuff the DCEU has earned all their critic scores Man of Steel was a divisive take on Superman and got a 55% on RT, the theatrical cut of BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League were all butchered in editing by WB and deserved poor reviews, and Wonder Woman was a genuinely good movie.
> 
> As for the MCU they're mostly fun entertaining films with coherent stories and likeable characters so people like them.



Honest question - why do you guys pay attention to anything about the DCEU if you only see doom and gloom everywhere? Why not just give up and watch Marvel since it's obvious that's more your speed?

Little, if anything about this cinematic universe pleases you, so what do you care?

Though I suppose it is nice that someone actually remembers MoS was divisive not hated entirely.

----------


## The_Lurk

> I'm sorry I can never buy this stuff the DCEU has earned all their critic scores Man of Steel was a divisive take on Superman and got a 55% on RT, the theatrical cut of BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League were all butchered in editing by WB and deserved poor reviews, and Wonder Woman was a genuinely good movie.
> 
> As for the MCU they're mostly fun entertaining films with coherent stories and likeable characters so people like them.


If you mean buy as in getting/ordering the movies: so what? Other do; and apparently lots of others according to charts.

If you mean as in believing: go to other sources than RT; like those where only reviews of the verified sold product count. Sure, they can by skewed too; but usually not as big as unverified rating collections.

----------


## Robotman

Jeezus I really hope it doesn’t happen yet again. Not putting a lot of stock in the early buzz but with WB’s recent track record with DC films I really wouldn’t be surprised if there is another cluster fuck brewing. I can’t even imagine the insanity that ensued on the Aquaman set as Justice League tanked in theaters. I try to remain hopefully but it’s getting more difficult with each disaster. Maybe they will reveal a clip at Wonder Con and generate some positive buzz.

----------


## Sandfall

> Pretty much every superhero movie that isn't Marvel is reported to have had a "negative reception" from a screening. Goes the same ways for Fox and Sony as it does for the DC films. it's pretty much expected every time regardless of whether the reports are true or not


I think this is true, the media loves to pour toxic on every superhero movie that isn't Marvel.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yes, yes. The Wonder Woman mis-report was the ONE time that these negative reports turned out to be not true.


Deadpool 2 got negative reports too and now the studio is claiming it outscored even the original in test screenings.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Honest question - why do you guys pay attention to anything about the DCEU if you only see doom and gloom everywhere? Why not just give up and watch Marvel since it's obvious that's more your speed?
> 
> Little, if anything about this cinematic universe pleases you, so what do you care?
> 
> Though I suppose it is nice that someone actually remembers MoS was divisive not hated entirely.


I've seen and heard every radio show, serial, TV show, animated series/cartoon, animated film, and live action films made of the Trinity. Heck I've seen most of everything DC has ever put to film outside of a few of the old serials having only seen the Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and Vigilante serials. So my question is why should I not continue to watch and comment on DC films? 

As for the MCU I've used this analogy before and will continue I view like another films series I love the old school Bond films they're fun and entertaining with a lot of good films, a few great films, and a few mediocre films that I could see some people not liking. But none are incoherent messes or bad from a film POV are they some kind of masterpieces? No they're just fun films.

As for the DCEU it always amazes me Wonder Woman was a critical hit so we'll take her out of the mix. Man of Steel got a 55 again it was a divisive take I thought it was a well made film with a decent story but hated the interpretations of Superman and Jonathan Kent so I didn't like it as a Superman film while it was a good film and can see why it got a 55. Then there is the Theatrical Cut of BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League all were heavily butchered in editing by WB an issue even DCEU Fanboys love to point out. 

So my question is if even DCEU fans can acknowledge that WB messed with BvS's Theatrical Cut, Suicide Squad, and Justice League to those films detriment then why is it even shocking and treated like a conspiracy that they got bad reviews from critics?

----------


## Agent Z

> I've seen and heard every radio show, serial, TV show, animated series/cartoon, animated film, and live action films made of the Trinity. Heck I've seen most of everything DC has ever put to film outside of a few of the old serials having only seen the Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and Vigilante serials. So my question is why should I not continue to watch and comment on DC films? 
> 
> As for the MCU I've used this analogy before and will continue I view like another films series I love the old school Bond films they're fun and entertaining with a lot of good films, a few great films, and a few mediocre films that I could see some people not liking. But none are incoherent messes or bad from a film POV are they some kind of masterpieces? No they're just fun films.
> 
> As for the DCEU it always amazes me Wonder Woman was a critical hit so we'll take her out of the mix. Man of Steel got a 55 again it was a divisive take I thought it was a well made film with a decent story but hated the interpretations of Superman and Jonathan Kent so I didn't like it as a Superman film while it was a good film and can see why it got a 55. Then there is the Theatrical Cut of BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League all were heavily butchered in editing by WB an issue even DCEU Fanboys love to point out. 
> 
> So my question is if even DCEU fans can acknowledge that WB messed with BvS's Theatrical Cut, Suicide Squad, and Justice League to those films detriment then why is it even shocking and treated like a conspiracy that they got bad reviews from critics?


This entire conversation was started when somebody posted about someone saying he heard from a guy that Aquaman was bad. Then a DCEU defender said they're worried but also added that Wonder Woman got the same reports and a person who dislikes the DCEU jumped down their throats and it all snowballed from their. 

Yeah you like DC characters, that's fine, but past a certain point, it does fell like you're merely punishing yourself. What has been said in this conversation right now that hasn't been said a million times on these forums let alone everywhere else on the Internet where the DCEU is discussed? If you don't have any faith in these films being good, surely you'd be sparing yourself a whole lot of head ache by just avoiding them. 

Again, if you like the MCU so much, why not just stick to that because obviously you're not getting anything out of the DCEU right now.

----------


## Agent Z

> I've seen and heard every radio show, serial, TV show, animated series/cartoon, animated film, and live action films made of the Trinity. Heck I've seen most of everything DC has ever put to film outside of a few of the old serials having only seen the Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and Vigilante serials. So my question is why should I not continue to watch and comment on DC films? 
> 
> As for the MCU I've used this analogy before and will continue I view like another films series I love the old school Bond films they're fun and entertaining with a lot of good films, a few great films, and a few mediocre films that I could see some people not liking. But none are incoherent messes or bad from a film POV are they some kind of masterpieces? No they're just fun films.
> 
> As for the DCEU it always amazes me Wonder Woman was a critical hit so we'll take her out of the mix. Man of Steel got a 55 again it was a divisive take I thought it was a well made film with a decent story but hated the interpretations of Superman and Jonathan Kent so I didn't like it as a Superman film while it was a good film and can see why it got a 55. Then there is the Theatrical Cut of BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League all were heavily butchered in editing by WB an issue even DCEU Fanboys love to point out. 
> 
> So my question is if even DCEU fans can acknowledge that WB messed with BvS's Theatrical Cut, Suicide Squad, and Justice League to those films detriment then why is it even shocking and treated like a conspiracy that they got bad reviews from critics?


This entire conversation was started when somebody posted about someone saying he heard from a guy that Aquaman was bad. Then a DCEU defender said they're worried but also added that Wonder Woman got the same reports and a person who dislikes the DCEU jumped down their throats and it all snowballed from there to the typical wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Yeah you like DC characters, that's fine, but past a certain point, it does fell like you're merely punishing yourself. I mean, what has been said in this conversation right now that hasn't been said a million times on these forums let alone everywhere else on the Internet where the DCEU is discussed? Someone says they think a DCEU film will be bad, others say it's just a rumor, then someone else talks about how they hate all the DCEU films. Rinse and repeat. If you don't have any faith in these films being good, surely you'd be sparing yourself a whole lot of head ache by just avoiding them. 

Again, if you like the MCU so much, why not just stick to that because obviously you're not getting anything out of the DCEU right now. It's not like the Trinity will vanish if you don't watch their stuff.

----------


## Jokerz79

> This entire conversation was started when somebody posted about someone saying he heard from a guy that Aquaman was bad. Then a DCEU defender said they're worried but also added that Wonder Woman got the same reports and a person who dislikes the DCEU jumped down their throats and it all snowballed from their. 
> 
> Yeah you like DC characters, that's fine, but past a certain point, it does fell like you're merely punishing yourself. What has been said in this conversation right now that hasn't been said a million times on these forums let alone everywhere else on the Internet where the DCEU is discussed? If you don't have any faith in these films being good, surely you'd be sparing yourself a whole lot of head ache by just avoiding them. 
> 
> Again, if you like the MCU so much, why not just stick to that because obviously you're not getting anything out of the DCEU right now.


My response was to a post that continued the idea that there is a bias or conspiracy against the DCEU and I commented on how I think that is crazy because critics had legitimate reasons to dislike the films that did got rotten scores.

It kills me die hard DCEU fans want to complain about the meddling of WB while simultaneously acting like there is a grand critic conspiracy against the DCEU. 

I'm a DC fan I will watch their films, hope for better and vent if they disappointed by any, and last point out if I think something is wrong like the conspiracy theories involving critics.

----------


## Soubhagya

> This entire conversation was started when somebody posted about someone saying he heard from a guy that Aquaman was bad. Then a DCEU defender said they're worried but also added that Wonder Woman got the same reports and a person who dislikes the DCEU jumped down their throats and it all snowballed from there to the typical wailing and gnashing of teeth. 
> 
> Yeah you like DC characters, that's fine, but past a certain point, it does fell like you're merely punishing yourself. I mean, what has been said in this conversation right now that hasn't been said a million times on these forums let alone everywhere else on the Internet where the DCEU is discussed? Someone says they think a DCEU film will be bad, others say it's just a rumor, then someone else talks about how they hate all the DCEU films. Rinse and repeat. If you don't have any faith in these films being good, surely you'd be sparing yourself a whole lot of head ache by just avoiding them. 
> 
> Again, if you like the MCU so much, why not just stick to that because obviously you're not getting anything out of the DCEU right now. It's not like the Trinity will vanish if you don't watch their stuff.


I agree with Jokerz. Loving/liking something doesn't mean that we can't find faults in that. I also really love the MCU. They are simply far too good in my opinion. They have their faults, but i don't find them really big. 

I like the DCEU. I think Man of Steel is a good film. Though i have my problems. Wonder Woman was very good. I enjoyed Justice League a lot. Haven't watched SS. And think BvS is bad. Somewhat mixed in my opinion of DCEU so far. We can't really say someone to go to MCU. How can i go? Superman is my favorite character of all time. Love Batman. Love Wonder Woman. I am a DC fan. As much as i love the MCU, i read only Squirrel Girl and Renew Your Vows. DC always has been my love. 

I complain a lot against DCEU films. But that's out of love. No one would complain so many times if there isn't some love. Some care. Others can simply post once or twice and simply go away. But we all want DC to succeed. All of us are in the same team even if our views don't match.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> After Joker dropped HQ from the help and crashed, Enchantress made a deal with him. He was going to take Harley home and be “King of Gotham” Harley stood up to him and refused to betray her new friends. The Squad turned on him and he escaped.


https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/...49416008581121

don't know who was anxious for this to be answered but David Ayer has explained what role cut Burnt Face Joker from Suicide Squad would have played.

----------


## Sandfall

> My response was to a post that continued the idea that there is a bias or conspiracy against the DCEU and I commented on how I think that is crazy because critics had legitimate reasons to dislike the films that did got rotten scores.
> 
> It kills me die hard DCEU fans want to complain about the meddling of WB while simultaneously acting like there is a grand critic conspiracy against the DCEU. 
> 
> I'm a DC fan I will watch their films, hope for better and vent if they disappointed by any, and last point out if I think something is wrong like the conspiracy theories involving critics.


Does anyone  truly believe BP is the best superhero movie created  or most of the marvel movies  in the 90s range deserve to be there when many amazing movies do not score that. Do you know in China,  which is getting more attention now,  the best  reviewed comics films are not marvel movies but the TDK Trilogy and the X-Men movies? Which will be the same here in the US once we acknowledged the bias is real. Forget Logan and TDK  but does anyone here  really believe Thor Ragnarok, BP and Homecoming are better movies than DOFP or Batman Begins or Spiderman 2? 


I think it has gotten to a point that the only people that don't believe their is a  bias to marvel are a very small portion of the MCU Camp, the bias has become  too impossible to ignore with movies like Black Panther, Homecoming, Thor all scoring 90s when better movies are clocking in the mid 80s.

But  I kind of like it because it has humbled many people. I really thought many  in the MCU house will be so overjoyed by Black Panther reviews but in a way they do not really like to talk about it because of the obvious. Black Panther is not even the best marvel movie and the movie is now the suppose best reviewed comic film ever made. What other real explanation can anyone give to explain this anomaly?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Does anyone  truly believe BP is the best superhero movie created  or most of the marvel movies  in the 90s range deserve to be there when many amazing movies do not score that. Do you know in China,  which is getting more attention now,  the best  reviewed comics films are not marvel movies but the TDK Trilogy and the X-Men movies? Which will be the same here in the US once we acknowledged the bias is real. Forget Logan and TDK  but does anyone here  really believe Thor Ragnarok, BP and Homecoming are better movies than DOFP or Batman Begins or Spiderman 2? 
> 
> 
> I think it has gotten to a point that the only people that don't believe their is a  bias to marvel are a very small portion of the MCU Camp, the bias has become  too impossible to ignore with movies like Black Panther, Homecoming, Thor or scoring 90s when better movies are clocking in the mid 80s.
> 
> But  I kind of like it because it has humbled many people. I really thought many  in the MCU house will be so overjoyed by Black Panther reviews but in a way they do not really like to talk about it because of the obvious. Black Panther is not even the best marvel movie and the movie is now the suppose best reviewed comic film ever made. What other real explanation can anyone give to explain this anomaly?


Do I believe Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, or Spider-Man Homecoming are better than X-Men Days of Future Past, Batman Begins, of Spider-Man 2? No. But are they equal to them? Yes to me they are the only 2 Super hero movies I put above the genre are Dark Knight and Logan everything else in the superhero genre is either as good or worse than the MCU IMO. 

I don't believe there is a bias against the DCEU given the films which got bad reviews were films which theatrical cuts were butchered by WB.

----------


## Serpico Jones

I would’ve loved to see Snyder and Affleck team up for a solo Batflick. Oh well.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Do you know in China,  which is getting more attention now,  the best  reviewed comics films are not marvel movies but the TDK Trilogy and the X-Men movies?


Seriously, what's your point?  Did you know in China the highest grossing North American movie is The Fate of the Furious, followed by Furious 7 and Transformers Age of Extinction?  Have you ever seen The Mermaid?  This is the third highest grossing Chinese film.  No, it's not a good movie.

Yeah, I don't put much stock with your comparisons.

----------


## Sandfall

> Seriously, what's your point?  Did you know in China the highest grossing North American movie is The Fate of the Furious, followed by Furious 7 and Transformers Age of Extinction?  Have you ever seen The Mermaid?  This is the third highest grossing Chinese film.  No, it's not a good movie.
> 
> Yeah, I don't put much stock with your comparisons.


Highest grossing movies and best movies are two different things. those movies maybe the highest grossing movies in china but  they are not the best received movies in china. In the USA,  I have never seen or heard anyone say Avatar, Avengers, Star Wars 8 are the best movies created in the USA because they are not. they are not also among the best of the Director's or franchise  films.

----------


## Carabas

> Highest grossing movies and best movies are two different things. those movies maybe the highest grossing movies in china but  they are not the best received movies in china. In the USA,  I have never seen or heard anyone say Avatar, Avengers, Star Wars 8 are the best movies created in the USA because they are not. they are not also among the best of the Director's or franchise  films.


Avatar is absolutely the best film of the Avatar franchise.

----------


## Sandfall

> Avatar is absolutely the best film of the Avatar franchise.


James Cameron best movie is Terminator 2,  Titanic is ten times above  Avatar. I don't  understand Avatar apart from the good use of 3D. the plot is beyond ghastly. it's a movie that can not be enjoyed on TV because it is not  3D Cinema.

 I can enjoy Terminator 2 not only in cinema or TV but also on  PSP or Tablets and some of this PC Tools were not mainstream yet or had been created in the early 1990s when Terminator 2 was released. That was how amazing that movie was,  Avatar was a one off visual cinema experience though a big money maker.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Does anyone  truly believe BP is the best superhero movie created  or most of the marvel movies  in the 90s range deserve to be there when many amazing movies do not score that. Do you know in China,  which is getting more attention now,  the best  reviewed comics films are not marvel movies but the TDK Trilogy and the X-Men movies? Which will be the same here in the US once we acknowledged the bias is real. Forget Logan and TDK  but does anyone here  really believe Thor Ragnarok, BP and Homecoming are better movies than DOFP or Batman Begins or Spiderman 2? 
> 
> 
> I think it has gotten to a point that the only people that don't believe their is a  bias to marvel are a very small portion of the MCU Camp, the bias has become  too impossible to ignore with movies like Black Panther, Homecoming, Thor all scoring 90s when better movies are clocking in the mid 80s.
> 
> But  I kind of like it because it has humbled many people. I really thought many  in the MCU house will be so overjoyed by Black Panther reviews but in a way they do not really like to talk about it because of the obvious. Black Panther is not even the best marvel movie and the movie is now the suppose best reviewed comic film ever made. What other real explanation can anyone give to explain this anomaly?


Some people do think BP is the best superhero film ever. Here i would say films are subjective. I absolutely love Star Wars: The Last Jedi. Excellent reception by critics, huge success in box office but divisive among the online fan community. 

I have posted a top ten ranking for superhero films in Films/TV thread. So, i love some MCU films more then the films you mentioned.  

Rotten Tomatoes mean nothing. Its simply the percentage of critics who think that it was a good film. Worth your time. Metacritic is a better metric. Yet, its about subjectivity of opinion. I may think differently but can i say there's a bias in others? Its odd that we are speaking about some bias when 'Wonder Woman' pretty much confirmed that its not the case. Forget it. We have gone through this discussion before. 

All the films you mentioned received great critical reception. Might not be as stellar as BP. But then does it matter? People can have opposing opinions. Films are subjective. .

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I agree with Jokerz. Loving/liking something doesn't mean that we can't find faults in that. I also really love the MCU. They are simply far too good in my opinion. They have their faults, but i don't find them really big. 
> 
> I like the DCEU. I think Man of Steel is a good film. Though i have my problems. Wonder Woman was very good. I enjoyed Justice League a lot. Haven't watched SS. And think BvS is bad. Somewhat mixed in my opinion of DCEU so far. We can't really say someone to go to MCU. How can i go? Superman is my favorite character of all time. Love Batman. Love Wonder Woman. I am a DC fan. As much as i love the MCU, i read only Squirrel Girl and Renew Your Vows. DC always has been my love. 
> 
> I complain a lot against DCEU films. But that's out of love. No one would complain so many times if there isn't some love. Some care. Others can simply post once or twice and simply go away. But we all want DC to succeed. All of us are in the same team even if our views don't match.


I feel the same with the DC movies.

I always prefer DC better because they got better villains and better female characters. Superman is also special to me. But DCEU really didn't do well enough, at least for now.

----------


## Carabas

> James Cameron best movie is Terminator 2,  Titanic is ten times above  Avatar. I don't  understand Avatar apart from the good use of 3D. the plot is beyond ghastly. it's a movie that can not be enjoyed on TV because it is not  3D Cinema.


I didn't say Avatar is good or even watchable (I haven't seen it and probably never will).
I don't need to have seen it to know it is (so far) the absolutely best movie in the Avatar franchise. And also the worst.

Terminator 2 is one of the most overrated CGI fests in movie history. Also, the basic plot doesn't make one lick of sense.
Cameron's bests to me are the original Terminator and Aliens.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I didn't say Avatar is good or even watchable (I haven't seen it and probably never will).
> I don't need to have seen it to know it is (so far) the absolutely best movie in the Avatar franchise. And also the worst.
> 
> Terminator 2 is one of the most overrated CGI fests in movie history. Also, the basic plot doesn't make one lick of sense.
> Cameron's bests to me are the original Terminator and Aliens.


While I like T2 I agree Terminator and Aliens are better.

----------


## Gaastra

> Avatar is absolutely the best film of the Avatar franchise.


I don't know.  I think dances with wolfs and ferngully were better movies.  




> I always prefer DC better because they got better villains and better female characters.


You do know the term "fridged" came from a dc comic right?

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't know.  I think dances with wolfs and ferngully were better movies.  
> 
> 
> 
> You do know the term "fridged" came from a dc comic right?


It came from Gail Simone who used it to describe instances of female characters being killed off to provide angst for male characters. Thing is, this wasn't a new thing when it happened to Alex DeWitt. It had been a common tradition since Gwen Stacy's death. 

Btw, fridging female characters has nothing to do with the quality of the female characters. In fact, Alex's death was so controversial because of how well written and liked she was.

----------


## Gaastra

True.  Marvel has been guilty of that as well.  Look at the female yellowjacket and new red raven.  Look at what bandis did to wanda who was a loved longtime avenger.  At the same time there are things like turning batgirl evil in nightwing, turning jade into lex's stooge and a few others.   At the same time dc has had some great female hero stories. Some really well written comics. Both have had good or bad.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Highest grossing movies and best movies are two different things. those movies maybe the highest grossing movies in china but  they are not the best received movies in china. In the USA,  I have never seen or heard anyone say Avatar, Avengers, Star Wars 8 are the best movies created in the USA because they are not. they are not also among the best of the Director's or franchise  films.


Found it odd that you would mention some non-MCU movies as better received in China like it would make a difference.  Is China supposed to be the gold standard for critiquing movies?  Have you seen some of their 'best' comedies?  Ugggh.

----------


## Carabas

> True.  Marvel has been guilty of that as well.  Look at the female yellowjacket and new red raven.  Look at what bandis did to wanda who was a loved longtime avenger.  At the same time there are things like turning batgirl evil in nightwing, turning jade into lex's stooge and a few others.   At the same time dc has had some great female hero stories. Some really well written comics. Both have had good or bad.


Most or all of these don't count as fridging.

A real fridging is when

1) a female character
2) gets killed or depowered or otherwise diminished
3) and it HAS to be done for no other reason than to get an emotional reaction out of a male character.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Most or all of these don't count as fridging.
> 
> A real fridging is when
> 
> 1) a female character
> 2) gets killed or depowered or otherwise diminished
> 3) and it HAS to be done for no other reason than to get an emotional reaction out of a male character.


Doesn't change the fact that Marvel has been as guilty. It was Gwen Stacy's death that started the trend after all at the Big 2 (and if I believe correctly, one of Namor's love interests had been killed prior to Gwen).

Daredevil had two love interests fridged. That's still a record for a single superhero.

----------


## Amazon Swordsman

Idk if I’d go so far as saying BP is the best comic book movie ever made in spite of its massive success. But it IS a really good movie.

A big part of it is Marvel took a hero with a name, setting, and cast that appeals to a remarkable demographic that has felt considerably underepsented in the genre. It’s got cultural significance. One needs to only refer back to the Civil rights era and the Black Panther party for pop culture relevance. They saw how WW reaped the benefits of a cultural wave riding on the heels of the feminist movement and took it to the next level as a symbol of empowerment for black people. 

I understand that not everyone will agree with that, and to some it’s just a good movie. But to many, it’s much more.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Idk if I’d go so far as saying BP is the best comic book movie ever made in spite of its massive success. But it IS a really good movie.
> 
> A big part of it is Marvel took a hero with a name, setting, and cast that appeals to a remarkable demographic that has felt considerably underepsented in the genre. It’s got cultural significance. One needs to only refer back to the Civil rights era and the Black Panther party for pop culture relevance. They saw how WW reaped the benefits of a cultural wave riding on the heels of the feminist movement and took it to the next level as a symbol of empowerment for black people. 
> 
> I understand that not everyone will agree with that, and to some it’s just a good movie. But to many, it’s much more.


Both WW and BP deserve the hype because they destroyed traditional belief systems about how women and POC lead superhero blockbusters are received at the box office.

One has to wonder whether _Wonder Woman_ would have resonated even more with women if they had kept the original backstory with the Greek Goddesses bringing Diana to life and perhaps even showing the Perez origin of the Amazons being created from the souls of murdered or exploited women.

----------


## Sandfall

> Idk if Id go so far as saying BP is the best comic book movie ever made in spite of its massive success. But it IS a really good movie.
> 
> A big part of it is Marvel took a hero with a name, setting, and cast that appeals to a remarkable demographic that has felt considerably underepsented in the genre. Its got cultural significance. One needs to only refer back to the Civil rights era and the Black Panther party for pop culture relevance. They saw how WW reaped the benefits of a cultural wave riding on the heels of the feminist movement and took it to the next level as a symbol of empowerment for black people. 
> 
> I understand that not everyone will agree with that, and to some its just a good movie. But to many, its much more.


Black Panther is a movie we would have to split in two categories.

*1. Cultural significance for Blacks of all ethnic groups, Africans, African Americans ,  other People of colour  who are not usually represented and Disney

2. A superhero film.*

The first category  can't and should not be ignored, this was a movie that hopefully will have a long lasting effect and open more doors for people of colour in movies backed up by  big budgets because the studios will  be more confident they will get their money back at the box office.

The second category is where none of things in category 1 matters. The movie is judged fairly and truthfully like all comic book movies regardless of the race or gender of the cast or the politics. I think this is where the movie just becomes another fun and entertaining formula marvel movie. we have seen done before.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The second category is where none of things in category 1 matters. The movie is judged fairly and truthfully like all comic book movies regardless of the race or gender of the cast or the politics. *I think this is where the movie just becomes another fun and entertaining formula marvel movie. we have seen done before.*


Even if you separate the politics of the story from the story, _Black Panther_ was easily superior to standard MCU fare. This video perfectly nails why it is much better than the likes of even _Thor: Ragnarok_, one of the stronger MCU entries.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Even if you separate the politics of the story from the story, _Black Panther_ was easily superior to standard MCU fare. This video perfectly nails why it is much better than the likes of even _Thor: Ragnarok_, one of the stronger MCU entries.


Thor Ragnarok actually had deeper incite then people give it credit with the message that Empires are built on Blood but the Victors get to write the history and white wash it to benefit themselves.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Thor Ragnarok actually had deeper incite then people give it credit with the message that Empires are built on Blood but the Victors get to write the history and white wash it to benefit themselves.


I think people know its there but it's not managed as well as BP's message. The Sarkaar shenanigans tend to distract from it too much to me and both aspects of the film at odds than working together.

----------


## Gaastra

Speaking of black panther it just beat avengers and is now the highest grossing comic book movie of all time in America and 3rd worldwide!  It's also the 5th highest grossing movie of all time in america!  

That's insane!

----------


## hitman1900

Black Panther has now made $631 million domestically while Justice League made $657 million worldwide. I don't care how anyone spins it but that it is very telling.

----------


## Johnny

> Black Panther has now made $631 million domestically while Justice League made $657 million worldwide. I don't care how anyone spins it but that it is very telling.


I'm very happy for Black Panther's tremendous success but this thread is about the DCEU, not the MCU. So let's go back to that please.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Found it odd that you would mention some non-MCU movies as better received in China like it would make a difference.  *Is China supposed to be the gold standard for critiquing movies? * Have you seen some of their 'best' comedies?  Ugggh.


Sometimes it's used as a scapegoat to NOT do certain types of movies-especially those with POC as leads.

It comes down to what does one really value. DO you really want to be Ben Stiller who needed China for some of his films to break even or be Kevin Hart whose films break even before sniffing China. Interesting enough as well received as the Rock is over there-his first film with Kevin didn't show there. So SOMEBODY takes issues with blacks as leads over there.





> Black Panther has now made $631 million domestically while Justice League made $657 million worldwide. I don't care how anyone spins it but that it is very telling.


All it and along with WW (and soon Aquaman) is it's time to let go of the safety nets of Batman & Superman.

You can no longer settle on your laurels that because you got Batman in a film-everyone will fall down and worship it. Flaws and all. (Michael Bay's Transformer withstanding)
You can no longer settle on laurels that because you got more guys with 300+ solo runs that they will forever dominate.

Maybe the message is Dc needs to diversify it's products and PROVE they are more than Batman & Superman.

Black Panther is the SLAP in the face of DC. That should be DC's wake up call in every part of the company. Tv, movies, comics, novels and so on. Put every EGO and Silver Age love ASIDE.

----------


## Johnny

> Maybe the message is Dc needs to diversify it's products and PROVE they are more than Batman & Superman.
> 
> Black Panther is the SLAP in the face of DC. That should be DC's wake up call in every part of the company. Tv, movies, comics, novels and so on. Put every EGO and Silver Age love ASIDE.


This has nothing to do with diversity, the DCEU's third film was more diverse than anything Marvel had put out at the time.

The "Silver Age love" buzzwords are getting old as hell. The new Justice League roster in the comics is comprised of characters from a 17-year old cartoon and you still talk about Silver Age love? DC has been failing on the movie side, because WB has repeatedly adapted the material in a highly incompetent manner. It has nothing to do with the fact that DC's most prominent characters are white guys. If you think diversity and diversity only is going to "save" DC, you got another thing coming. DC/WB need to be competent above all else, not keep trying to make stupid decisions to look like they can compete with the other studio.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Sometimes it's used as a scapegoat to NOT do certain types of movies-especially those with POC as leads.
> 
> It comes down to what does one really value. DO you really want to be Ben Stiller who needed China for some of his films to break even or be Kevin Hart whose films break even before sniffing China. Interesting enough as well received as the Rock is over there-his first film with Kevin didn't show there. So SOMEBODY takes issues with blacks as leads over there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it and along with WW (and soon Aquaman) is *it's time to let go of the safety nets of Batman & Superman.*
> 
> ...


I agree with letting go on the reliance of Bats and Supes, in comics and out comics.

----------


## Serpico Jones

DC president Diane Nelson has taken a leave of absence to deal with personal issues.

----------


## Frontier

> I agree with letting go on the reliance of Bats and Supes, in comics and out comics.


Does DC even really rely on Superman? I mean, maybe he's more liable to get a few TV shows or movies then other DC heroes, but not to the extent of Batman, I'd say. 



> DC president Diane Nelson has taken a leave of absence to deal with personal issues.


My condolences and well wishes to whatever she's dealing with right now.

----------


## Agent Z

> *Does DC even really rely on Superman?* I mean, maybe he's more liable to get a few TV shows or movies then other DC heroes, but not to the extent of Batman, I'd say. 
> 
> My condolences and well wishes to whatever she's dealing with right now.


A lot more than most characters. His movie was the one they used as a launching point to the DCEU.

----------


## Confuzzled

> DC president Diane Nelson has taken a leave of absence to deal with personal issues.





> My condolences and well wishes to whatever she's dealing with right now.


Oh that's sad. She's one of the best things to happen to DC in the new millennium. Hope everything works out for her.

----------


## Confuzzled

> A lot more than most characters. His movie was the one they used as a launching point to the DCEU.


Yup, he's also the only one who can rival Batman when it comes to direct to video animated movies and tv shows, he had a long running live action show that just wrapped a few years ago (and not long after, one of his spin-off characters got her own show and he guest stars in it), in the last 10-11 years he has featured in 4 theatrical live-action movies, he was the POV character of the _Legion of Super Heroes_ show not that long ago, and even _Justice League Action_ has him on the same level of prominence as Batman.

He's not exactly marginalized lol

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Maybe the message is Dc needs to diversify it's products and PROVE they are more than Batman & Superman.
> 
> Black Panther is the SLAP in the face of DC. That should be DC's wake up call in every part of the company. Tv, movies, comics, novels and so on. *Put every EGO and Silver Age love ASIDE*.


So...you know that Black Panther is a Silver Age character right? As are the majority of the characters in the MCU. And so far he is the only black one to headline a movie, whereas DC put out a more diverse film as their third (even if it sucked). 

You're giving Marvel way too much credit.

----------


## Gaastra

Superman was bigger then batman in the late 70s and 80s thanks to the movies. He was big in the 60s also.  The trouble with dc movies is 97% of the superhero movies are batman and superman or a spin-off of them.  Take out all batman and superman and spin-offs of them movies and how many dc hero films have they made? DC is now making movies based on their non batman and superman heroes but look how long it took them!  At least swamp thing got a few campy movies in the 80s. DC has a whole universe of great heroes they can make after all.

----------


## Serpico Jones

El Mayimbe hinting that Diane Nelson was actually pushed out...

----------


## Confuzzled

> El Mayimbe hinting that Diane Nelson was actually pushed out...


The official WB release says they are looking forward to her return to the studio, so El Maybe just reaching for clicks, like the time he got into an argument with _Logan_ director James Mangold.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> A lot more than most characters. His movie was the one they used as a launching point to the DCEU.


Green Lantern was supposed to be the start of the DCEU.  But it's failure put those plans on hold.  MoS was mildly successful so that is why it ended up being the launching point instead of Green Lantern.




> Superman was bigger then batman in the late 70s and 80s thanks to the movies. He was big in the 60s also.  The trouble with dc movies is 97% of the superhero movies are batman and superman or a spin-off of them.  Take out all batman and superman and spin-offs of them movies and how many dc hero films have they made? DC is now making movies based on their non batman and superman heroes but look how long it took them!  At least swamp thing got a few campy movies in the 80s. DC has a whole universe of great heroes they can make after all.


Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Watchmen
Red 
Constantine
V for Vendetta
Catwoman 
Steel
Jonah Hex






> El Mayimbe hinting that Diane Nelson was actually pushed out...


Sort of a Zack Snyder deal?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Superman was bigger then batman in the late 70s and 80s thanks to the movies. He was big in the 60s also.  The trouble with dc movies is 97% of the superhero movies are batman and superman or a spin-off of them.  Take out all batman and superman and spin-offs of them movies and how many dc hero films have they made? DC is now making movies based on their non batman and superman heroes but look how long it took them!  At least swamp thing got a few campy movies in the 80s. DC has a whole universe of great heroes they can make after all.


There's also the fact that WB isn't in the business of making only superhero movies. Really up until recently, Wonder Woman is the only one who warranted their attention and shame on them for taking so long with her. There wasn't a superhero craze that made an Aquaman, Flash, GL, etc. movies seem like an obvious and great idea.

Marvel Studio's exists only to make superhero movies. And if they had access to Spider-Man and the X-Men since the beginning, I'm doubtful they would have gone for other characters (at least right away). Didn't they push back Black Panther and Captain Marvel as soon as SpiderM-Man became available again?

----------


## Jokerz79

> There's also the fact that WB isn't in the business of making only superhero movies. Really up until recently, Wonder Woman is the only one who warranted their attention and shame on them for taking so long with her. There wasn't a superhero craze that made an Aquaman, Flash, GL, etc. movies seem like an obvious and great idea.
> 
> Marvel Studio's exists only to make superhero movies. And if they had access to Spider-Man and the X-Men since the beginning, I'm doubtful they would have gone for other characters (at least right away). Didn't they push back Black Panther and Captain Marvel as soon as SpiderM-Man became available again?


Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel all got pushed back by a few months to make room for Spider-Man Homecoming which was understandable given they had to take into consideration the release dates and wants of another Studio since it would be a Sony film.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel all got pushed back by a few months to make room for Spider-Man Homecoming which was understandable given they had to take into consideration the release dates and wants of another Studio since it would be a Sony film.


Did they need another Spider-Man film when he's already had 5, and Thor had had 2 and the other two didn't have any? 
They went with Spider-Man because he's where the money is and he's a big name property.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Did they need another Spider-Man film when he's already had 5, and Thor had had 2 and the other two didn't have any? 
> They went with Spider-Man because he's where the money is and he's a big name property.


Spider-Man is basically Marvel's version of Superman.  So it's sort of like asking if we need another Superman movie as Superman has already had five.

----------


## Gaastra

Update on the marvel and dc both in ready player one rumor.

Iron man confirmed for ready player one so the avengers rumor is true.  Looks like we have a movie with both the justice league and avengers heroes in the same movie!  Batman and iron man are in the same movie!

Man it makes me want a full crossover!

----------


## Gaastra

> Wonder Woman
> Green Lantern
> Watchmen
> Red 
> Constantine
> V for Vendetta
> Catwoman 
> Steel
> Jonah Hex


Catwoman and steel are superman and batman spin-offs so take them out.  Red is a superhero movie? (never watched the 2 red movies. I really don't know what those are about.)

----------


## Rincewind

> Did they need another Spider-Man film when he's already had 5, and Thor had had 2 and the other two didn't have any? 
> They went with Spider-Man because he's where the money is and he's a big name property.


Who is "They"?  Sony has the rights to make Spider-Man movies, and they will do that until the sun burns out whether Marvel Studios is involved or not.  But since the MCU has shared custody of the character, it's not unreasonable to adjust their schedule to squeeze in Spider-Man and not have competing films out at the same time.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Green Lantern was supposed to be the start of the DCEU.  But it's failure put those plans on hold.  MoS was mildly successful so that is why it ended up being the launching point instead of Green Lantern.


Heh. If Man Of Steel had only been 'mildly' successful then it wouldn't have been the starting point for the DCEU. For a kick-off it outgrossed Green Lantern by no less than $449 million. That's significantly better than 'mildly' successful.

Your phrasing there absolutely reeks of dishing out mild praise whilst under duress. Man Of Steel isn't the greatest film but it performed perfectly well at box-office.

----------


## Gaastra

Man of steel did well at the box office.  It was not a bomb.

----------


## Hawkman

> Update on the marvel and dc both in ready player one rumor.
> 
> Iron man confirmed for ready player one so the avengers rumor is true.  Looks like we have a movie with both the justice league and avengers heroes in the same movie!  Batman and iron man are in the same movie!
> 
> Man it makes me want a full crossover!


It was Glenn Beck (of all people) who I once heard say he wouldn't be happy until Superman was fighting Captain America on the Death Star. I think we just got one step closer to this becoming a reality.

----------


## Robotman

> Update on the marvel and dc both in ready player one rumor.
> 
> Iron man confirmed for ready player one so the avengers rumor is true.  Looks like we have a movie with both the justice league and avengers heroes in the same movie!  Batman and iron man are in the same movie!
> 
> Man it makes me want a full crossover!


I wish they would have added more light on Deathstroke’s face so people would stop saying it’s a Deadpool appearance.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Spider-Man is basically Marvel's version of Superman.  So it's sort of like asking if we need another Superman movie as Superman has already had five.


The exact hypothesis though is: Suppose other studios had the rights to Superman and Batman and WB/DC were forced to make a cinematic universe from the remaining characters. They do so only using the remaining white male heroes and are very successful. When they finally get around to making movies for Wonder Woman and John Stewart, suddenly the Superman or Batman owning studio cries out for help and a crossover/reboot. Imagine if WB/DC then pushed back the first Wonder Woman and black DC superhero film for the fifth Superman or Batman film.

Also, Captain Marvel got delayed a second time once Ant-Man was a success and they prioritized Ant-Man and the Wasp before her film too.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> The exact hypothesis though is: Suppose other studios had the rights to Superman and Batman and WB/DC were forced to make a cinematic universe from the remaining characters. They do so only using the remaining white male heroes and are very successful. When they finally get around to making movies for Wonder Woman and John Stewart, suddenly the Superman or Batman owning studio cries out for help and a crossover/reboot. Imagine if WB/DC then pushed back the first Wonder Woman and black DC superhero film for the fifth Superman or Batman film.
> 
> Also, Captain Marvel got delayed a second time once Ant-Man was a success and they prioritized Ant-Man and the Wasp before her film too.


I don't see what any of this has to do with too many Spider-Man movies. If another studio had the rights to Superman and they made the five Superman movies would that be too many movies of Superman?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I don't see what any of this has to do with too many Spider-Man movies. If another studio had the rights to Superman and they made the five Superman movies would that be too many movies of Superman?


It's the same for both characters, as long as there is interest you cannot have too many movies. 

But really, the big difference between Marvel and DC's film divisions is that DC had access to their biggest names from the outset. If the MCU had Spider-Man earlier on, they would not sit on the chance to help Sony make a new movie. This mentality that Marvel deserves praise for doing movies on their lesser known characters is overblown: they had no other options. And even then, they still waited a while before they were confident enough to try an Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and GotG film. 

DC meanwhile, had plans to do Aquaman and Shazam even before things started to go south, so it's not like they only focus on in the Trinity.

----------


## Pinsir

> It's the same for both characters, as long as there is interest you cannot have too many movies. 
> 
> But really, the big difference between Marvel and DC's film divisions is that DC had access to their biggest names from the outset. If the MCU had Spider-Man earlier on, they would not sit on the chance to help Sony make a new movie. This mentality that Marvel deserves praise for doing movies on their lesser known characters is overblown: they had no other options. And even then, they still waited a while before they were confident enough to try an Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and GotG film. 
> 
> DC meanwhile, had plans to do Aquaman and Shazam even before things started to go south, so it's not like they only focus on in the Trinity.


Except if this 2008 Superhero genre has told us anything, 'virgin' superhero titles tend too perform better. Series such as Spiderman and Superman have not performed as well as their original franchises because, lets face it, even if you like Homecoming and MoS, they are at most the 3rd best films to star those characters.

----------


## MosSuperman

So when are they going to release a trailer for Aquaman?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/pe...os-1202738657/

Pedro Pascal of Netflix's "Narcos" has been cast in an important yet to be revealed role for Wonder Woman 2.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/pe...os-1202738657/
> 
> Pedro Pascal of Netflix's "Narcos" has been cast in an important yet to be revealed role for Wonder Woman 2.


Sweet! Loved him as Oberyn Martell! 

I wonder who he could be? If he's a villain, he could make an interesting Angle Man, I suppose. We already know Cheetah's in the movie so Sebastian Ballasteros is a possibility.

----------


## Robotman

Could Oberyn be Zeus?

----------


## Frontier

> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/pe...os-1202738657/
> 
> Pedro Pascal of Netflix's "Narcos" has been cast in an important yet to be revealed role for Wonder Woman 2.


He's 10-years too old to be Gal's new love interest but I'm curious if he'll be playing a named character.

----------


## Raijin

I'll believe when I see it.   Some of these so called `key roles` turn out to be exaggerated. But if I had to guess. Maybe he's Doctor Psycho?

----------


## MosSuperman

> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/pe...os-1202738657/
> 
> Pedro Pascal of Netflix's "Narcos" has been cast in an important yet to be revealed role for Wonder Woman 2.


Nice. He's great in Narcos and his Oberyn was awesome.

----------


## Frontier

> I'll believe when I see it.   Some of these so called `key roles` turn out to be exaggerated. But if I had to guess. *Maybe he's Doctor Psycho*?


He would be the most attractive version of Doctor Psycho ever (although I also think that wold kind of miss the point of the character)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Carabas

> Could Oberyn be Zeus?


That was my first guess.

----------


## Confuzzled

Yay Pedro Pascal! Hopefully it's Ed Indelicato, a fun Perez creation. 

And good for DC Films upping their Latino representation.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Except if this 2008 Superhero genre has told us anything, 'virgin' superhero titles tend too perform better. Series such as Spiderman and Superman have not performed as well as their original franchises because, lets face it, even if you like Homecoming and MoS, they are at most the 3rd best films to star those characters.


Except, once again, that could be due to the execution of the films and not the characters themselves.

----------


## Punisher007

Pedro Pascal as Vandal Savage perhaps?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Maybe he's playing Deimos or Phobos (or both, if they are twins like in Rebirth)?
They could be manipulating events to lead to Barbara's apotheosis into Cheetah.

----------


## Carabas

He could of course be playing some character that is not based on an existing DC character.

----------


## Hawkman

> Pedro Pascal as Vandal Savage perhaps?


I've seen this speculated elsewhere. I can see it, based on his appearance, but I don't know how much sense premiering Vandal Savage in a _Wonder Woman_ film makes, at least as a central character. While I'm not necessarily against it, my money's one someone else entirely.

----------


## Confuzzled

I've seen speculations that he's Giovanni Zatara and Zatanna may be introduced as a small child in the film. Unlikely but a cool idea.

Deimos or both Deimos and Phobos is also an interesting possibility.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I've seen speculations that he's Giovanni Zatara and Zatanna may be introduced as a small child in the film. Unlikely but a cool idea.
> 
> Deimos or both Deimos and Phobos is also an interesting possibility.


That would be cool if he's Zatara. Teasing Zatanna would be cool too.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Pascal is awesome, excited to find out who he might be. Savage or Zatara would be great.

----------


## Gaastra

Midnight edge wants to know why there are one report that aquaman had great feedback and the other it's a mess and tries to trace them both back to the source they started. 

Edit-for those who don't want to see the video they think the good reviews are real and the bad reviews are fake but do admit they don't care about aquaman that much.  They also talk about how the film has a uphill battle due to all the jokes about aquaman on superfriends, family guy, robot chicken, etc making him out as a big joke. (We all know the comic book version is no joke but non comic fans still see superfriends version that cartoon network made fun of all the time in the ads as well.)  WB even makes fun of him in the teen tians go movie trailer!

----------


## Gaastra

This is what non comic fans think of aquaman.

----------


## BlackClaw

Does anyone think that if Martian Manhunter comes to the DCEU, they could reveal him to have been General Swanwick this whole time?

----------


## Elmo

> Does anyone think that if Martian Manhunter comes to the DCEU, they could reveal him to have been General Swanwick this whole time?


that was the big rumor after MoS came out; it's still possible but Harry Lenix has flat out said it's not the case.

it';d be cool... to be fair though Martian Manhunter integrating himself into the lives of high profile military men goes against a lot of what makes that character so special, in my opinion

----------


## Confuzzled

> This is what non comic fans think of aquaman.


_Super Friends_ didn't paint Wonder Woman in the most serious light either but Diana did more than fine on her first solo cinematic outing.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

According to Borys Kit from the Hollywood Reporter, the "Flashpoint" movie will have a different title...

_"He worked on the Warner Bros.' Flash movie project when it was titled Flashpoint."_

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...armada-1099132

_"I didn't say they weren't adapting Flashpoint. All I said was that it wouldn't be titled Flashpoint. But maybe I've said too much."_

https://twitter.com/borys_kit/status...452014592?s=21

----------


## Jokerz79

> _Super Friends_ didn't paint Wonder Woman in the most serious light either but Diana did more than fine on her first solo cinematic outing.


Besides being a cultural icon WW also benefited from 3 seasons of Lynda Carter's series which is fondly remembered by many and being a core character in Justice League animated series and JLU. Where until the film Justice League Aquaman's most prominent representation in outside media was Superfriends.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Besides being a cultural icon WW also benefited from 3 seasons of Lynda Carter's series which is fondly remembered by many and being a core character in Justice League animated series and JLU. Where until the film Justice League Aquaman's most prominent representation in outside media was Superfriends.


It doesn't matter because MCU heroes and Deadpool were pretty much non-entities in other media (with the exception of Hulk) before making it huge on the big screen.

And WW received her fair share of ridicule too. Possibly even more than Aquaman as she was much better known.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> According to Borys Kit from the Hollywood Reporter, the "Flashpoint" movie will have a different title...
> 
> _"He worked on the Warner Bros.' Flash movie project when it was titled Flashpoint."_
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...armada-1099132
> 
> _"I didn't say they weren't adapting Flashpoint. All I said was that it wouldn't be titled Flashpoint. But maybe I've said too much."_
> 
> https://twitter.com/borys_kit/status...452014592?s=21


I suspect the movie itself won't end up being Flashpoint.  Just a self-contained Flash movie like Wonder Woman was or what Aquaman sounds like it will be.  I especially doubt the Flash movie will be used to reboot the DCEU.

----------


## Carabas

> It doesn't matter because MCU heroes and Deadpool were pretty much non-entities in other media (with the exception of Hulk) before making it huge on the big screen.
> 
> And WW received her fair share of ridicule too. Possibly even more than Aquaman as she was much better known.


It's a lot easier to get a hit movie if you're a non-entity and have a fresh start, than when you're perceived as a laughing stock across popular culture.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It's a lot easier to get a hit movie if you're a non-entity and have a fresh start, than *when you're perceived as a laughing stock across popular culture.*


Which misogynists and people who didn't know better like Megan Fox perceived Wonder Woman as before her movie.

Regardless, it doesn't matter as something like 98% of comic book blockbuster worldwide audiences aren't familiar with or have probably forgotten Super Friends or instances that made fun of Aquaman like Family Guy (which again, had made fun of Wonder Woman too).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Which misogynists and people who didn't know better like Megan Fox perceived Wonder Woman as before her movie.


Has anybody asked her what her view of Wondy is now?  :Smile:

----------


## WillieMorgan

> Has anybody asked her what her view of Wondy is now?


Even if Megan refuses to alter her stance on Wonder Woman, hers is hardly the most credible voice to consider in this case.

Apparently Diana's not too keen on Megan Fox either  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Even if Megan refuses to alter her stance on Wonder Woman, hers is hardly the most credible voice to consider in this case.
> 
> Apparently Diana's not too keen on Megan Fox either .


Can't disagree with that, Willie.  :Smile:

----------


## BlackClaw

> Has anybody asked her what her view of Wondy is now?


I doubt anybody cares about what the hell Megan Fox thinks of anyone or anything now since her “it girl” status faded as soon as she got booted from the Transformers series. Although I’d like to think she’s eating crow ever since Wonder Woman became a huge success.

Also I finally hit 1,000 posts!

----------


## WillieMorgan

> I doubt anybody cares about what the hell Megan Fox thinks of anyone or anything now since her “it girl” status faded as soon as she got booted from the Transformers series. Although I’d like to think she’s eating crow ever since Wonder Woman became a huge success.
> 
> Also I finally hit 1,000 posts!


Gorgeous girl though. All that money spent on those special effects in the second Transformers film and the best looking part of the movie was still Megan straddling that bike! Hardly an expert on WW though.

1000 posts, congratulations. I remember that. It was all fields around here back then.

----------


## Carabas

> Which misogynists and people who didn't know better like Megan Fox perceived Wonder Woman as before her movie.


AQUAMAN. He who talks to the fish and rides the seahorse and is a running joke on that popular Simpsons ripoff show Megan Fox stars in.

Also, I doubt that Megan Fox represents that mainstream view here.

----------


## Confuzzled

> AQUAMAN. He who talks to the fish and rides the seahorse and is a running joke on that popular Simpsons ripoff show Megan Fox stars in.
> 
> Also, I doubt that Megan Fox represents that mainstream view here.


Any superhero can be ridiculed and dismissed like that. Eg. Ant-Man. He who rides ants and shrinks to a miniscule size etc. And what show are you referring to? Family Guy featured Mila Kunis, not Fox, and it made fun of many superheroes including Wonder Woman.

Fox was not the only person with the "Wonder Woman is lame" belief. Half of the internet insisted that the character was ridiculous, she couldn't be taken seriously, her movie would flop miserably blah blah tripe. It's only in hindsight after the movie's groundbreaking performance that even haters started to claim "Oh she was always bound to be a success because she's WONDER WOMAN!"

----------


## Elmo

> AQUAMAN. He who talks to the fish and rides the seahorse and is a running joke on that popular Simpsons ripoff show Megan Fox stars in.
> 
> Also, I doubt that Megan Fox represents that mainstream view here.


what show?

----------


## BlackClaw

> what show?


I think he means Family Guy. Though I’m pretty sure Mila Kunis voices Meg and not Megan Fox.

----------


## Carabas

> I think he means Family Guy. Though I’m pretty sure Mila Kunis voices Meg and not Megan Fox.


D'oh!

I have no idea how I could have made that mistake and I bow my head in shame. Yeah, Family guy.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*RUMOR: Matt Reeves’ ‘The Batman’ May Deal With a Very Famous Comic Story Line:* http://manabyte.com/2018/04/rumor-ma...ic-story-line/

----------


## Serpico Jones

> *RUMOR: Matt Reeves’ ‘The Batman’ May Deal With a Very Famous Comic Story Line:* http://manabyte.com/2018/04/rumor-ma...ic-story-line/


El Mayimbe says it’s false.

----------


## Ascended

> I doubt anybody cares about what the hell Megan Fox thinks of anyone or anything now since her it girl status faded as soon as she got booted from the Transformers series. Although Id like to think shes eating crow ever since Wonder Woman became a huge success.
> 
> Also I finally hit 1,000 posts!


Dude, no one cared about what Megan Fox _thought_ of anything back when she was still the "it" girl.  :Stick Out Tongue:  She had one redeeming quality as an actress and public celebrity. And it was neither her acting talent or her sharp and clever mind.

And congrats on 1K posts!

----------


## Robotman

> According to Borys Kit from the Hollywood Reporter, the "Flashpoint" movie will have a different title...
> 
> _"He worked on the Warner Bros.' Flash movie project when it was titled Flashpoint."_
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...armada-1099132
> 
> _"I didn't say they weren't adapting Flashpoint. All I said was that it wouldn't be titled Flashpoint. But maybe I've said too much."_
> 
> https://twitter.com/borys_kit/status...452014592?s=21


They should just recast The Flash and start over.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> They should just recast The Flash and start over.


The portrayal of the characters in this universe is terrible. Wonder Woman the only one that feels right.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> They should just recast The Flash and start over.


Didn't like Miller in the role I take it?  I'm starting to wonder how much of the performance we saw was part of Snyder's "mentally challenged" Flash.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

If it's true that Jon Spaiths has written a draft of JL Dark it shows that WB are serious about that film, he's one of the biggest (and most expensive) names working in screenwriting today. 

Anyway, it would be really nice to get some kind of official statement from WB about how they're handling their DC properties going forward, even if it's just something like "We're not setting any boundaries, we'll keep making superhero movies that may or may not be connected at an uneven pace".

----------


## Confuzzled

> Didn't like Miller in the role I take it?  I'm starting to wonder how much of the performance we saw was part of Snyder's "mentally challenged" Flash.


Yeah, I mean I personally enjoyed him regardless but a lot of stuff that people take issue with like his run was probably informed by the differently abled angle Snyder was going for. Some of the scenes/shots like the running ones were probably too expensive to scrap or reshoot after Snyder's exit.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If it's true that Jon Spaiths has written a draft of JL Dark it shows that WB is serious about that film, he's one of the biggest (and most expensive) names working in screenwriting today. 
> 
> Anyway, it would be really nice to get some kind of official statement from WB about how they're handling their DC properties going forward, even if it's just something like "We're not setting any boundaries, we'll keep making superhero movies that may or may not be connected at an uneven pace".


When Aquaman comes out, Shazam and possibly Wonder Woman 2 will be done filming, and if rumblings are to be believed, Suicide Squad 2 will be in the middle of filming. We would also have much more concrete information regarding the Batman and Flash solo films. That's already a lot of projects coming down the line.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Yeah, I mean I personally enjoyed him regardless but a lot of stuff that people take issue with like his run was probably informed by the differently abled angle Snyder was going for. Some of the scenes/shots like the running ones were probably too expensive to scrap or reshoot after Snyder's exit.


Yeah I enjoyed the portrayal regardless as well.  I originally attributed it to Miller taking liberties with the character while trying to make it "his own."  It was something that could easily be adjusted with a stronger script and stronger director.  I always stated that in a Flash solo film he would need a strong director to reign him in a bit.  The Flash movie should definitely move away from the "mentally challenged" angle.  This just seems like another bad choice by Snyder... can't blame that on WB.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah I enjoyed the portrayal regardless as well.  I originally attributed it to Miller taking liberties with the character while trying to make it "his own."  It was something that could easily be adjusted with a stronger script and stronger director.  I always stated that in a Flash solo film he would need a strong director to reign him in a bit.  The Flash movie should definitely move away from the "mentally challenged" angle.  This just seems like another bad choice by Snyder... can't blame that on WB.


There anything you won't blame Snyder for?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> There anything you won't blame Snyder for?


Lots of things.  In this case... it absolutely was his stupid choice.

----------


## Agent Z

> Lots of things.  In this case... it absolutely was his stupid choice.


Last I checked, he's not the actor. Nor the script writer.

----------


## Black_Adam

Snyder just said on Vero that the dead Robin in BvS is intended to be Dick Grayson because "It would make Bruce even darker" his words not mine, this is Dick freakin' Grayson! He loves to torture and punish these characters, jesus.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Snyder just said on Vero that the dead Robin in BvS is intended to be Dick Grayson because "It would make Bruce even darker" his words not mine, this is Dick freakin' Grayson! He loves to torture and punish these characters, jesus.


Well at least Dan Didio would’ve seen his original dream if killing off Dick come to fruition. Lmao.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Snyder just said on Vero that the dead Robin in BvS is intended to be Dick Grayson because "It would make Bruce even darker" his words not mine, this is Dick freakin' Grayson! He loves to torture and punish these characters, jesus.


Well there was this photo from BvS during production

----------


## Confuzzled

Lol Zachary...

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/ZacharyLevi/stat...73376855347201

Class move by Shazam and Batman.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Defend Zach Snyder all you want but starting off your Universe with an old Batman who is a killer and a dead Dick Grayson killed any attempt to establish a shared universe as Superman died in his second outing. DCU under Snyder is 90s Extreme storytelling while marvel pulls from there best eras. DCCU has the potential to turn into the same continuity confused storytelling the comics have with a Joker Origin movie on the way. WW, Aquaman, and Shazam really have to deliver with no duds to set this ship back on track.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Defend Zach Snyder all you want but starting off your Universe with an old Batman who is a killer and a dead Dick Grayson killed any attempt to establish a shared universe as Superman died in his second outing. DCU under Snyder is 90’s Extreme storytelling while marvel pulls from there best era’s. DCCU has the potential to turn into the same continuity confused storytelling the comics have with a Joker Origin movie on the way. WW, Aquaman, and Shazam really have to deliver with no duds to set this ship back on track.


Hit the nail right on the head. Here’s to hoping the next three DC films finish what the first WW started and permanently set the DCEU on the right path.

----------


## Agent Z

> Defend Zach Snyder all you want but starting off your Universe with an old Batman who is a killer and a dead Dick Grayson killed any attempt to establish a shared universe as Superman died in his second outing. DCU under Snyder is 90s Extreme storytelling while marvel pulls from there best eras. DCCU has the potential to turn into the same continuity confused storytelling the comics have with a Joker Origin movie on the way. WW, Aquaman, and Shazam really have to deliver with no duds to set this ship back on track.


Batman being old and being a killer are not 90s things. And it isn't like he and Dick Grayson are the only characters in the DCU let alone the Batfamily.

Dick being dead isn't necessarily a good idea. That being said, this being Dick instead of Jason would just reinforce how dark and angry Batman is in the film, he saw Todd's death as his worst mistake but if Grayson died he probably would completely redefine his rules, most definitely there would be no other Robin to replace him.

I should also point out that this was never stated out loud in any version and therefore cemented in canon. Sometimes directors, actors and writers develop these types of explanations as motivation and inspiration, useful for the individual project but subject to be changed. It's similar to a conversation in the Star Wars thread where Mark Hamill revealed his own thoughts on why Luke disappeared for The Force Awakens (fell in love, had a child, went into exile to keep it secret and keep them safe), which was completely overwritten by The Last Jedi.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Dick, as THE Robin, would have a far bigger impact being dead than the others. 

I'm not totally on board with the idea, but I see the logic behind it. Its not as if Snyder planned on Bruce remaining dark, as awkward as the final execution of the idea was.

----------


## Jokerz79

Dick  Grayson, Jimmy Olsen, well thank God for Patty Jenkins or Etta Candy would had probably had gotten a double tap in the skull.

----------


## BlackClaw

I swear between this and what Justice League could’ve ended up being like, the more I’m glad Snyder is gone. He was shaping up to full edgelord on us more than he already did.

----------


## Hawkman

> https://twitter.com/ZacharyLevi/stat...73376855347201
> 
> Class move by Shazam and Batman.


Good for Affleck. Stuff like this makes me think he really does like playing Batman, but he's become as disenchanted with the material he's had to work with as a lot of the fans have, unfortunately. I hope he gets the chance to be in a well-received film as Batman before he bows out of the role.

----------


## Frontier

> Good for Affleck. Stuff like this makes me think he really does like playing Batman, but he's become as disenchanted with the material he's had to work with as a lot of the fans have, unfortunately. I hope he gets the chance to be in a well-received film as Batman before he bows out of the role.


I think Affleck enjoys being Batman but stuff like the drama in his personal life and the less then stellar receptions to the DCEU films he's been in have killed a lot of whatever enthusiasm he had for the role.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Batman being old and being a killer are not 90s things. And it isn't like he and Dick Grayson are the only characters in the DCU let alone the Batfamily.
> 
> Dick being dead isn't necessarily a good idea. That being said, this being Dick instead of Jason would just reinforce how dark and angry Batman is in the film, he saw Todd's death as his worst mistake but if Grayson died he probably would completely redefine his rules, most definitely there would be no other Robin to replace him.


Wait.  If Dick Grayson is dead in Snyder's version of the DC universe, then who was supposed to be Nightwing the the _Nightwing_ movie WB was planning? Was it supposed to be some sort of prequel? Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I think Affleck enjoys being Batman but stuff like the drama in his personal life and the less then stellar receptions to the DCEU films he's been in have killed a lot of whatever enthusiasm he had for the role.


I couldn't agree more.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Wait.  If Dick Grayson is dead in Snyder's version of the DC universe, then who was supposed to be Nightwing the the _Nightwing_ movie WB was planning? Was it supposed to be some sort of prequel? Otherwise it doesn't make sense.


It probably didn't go beyond the planning stages. A Nightwing movie wasn't announced when BvS was coming out, was it?

----------


## Carabas

> Wait.  If Dick Grayson is dead in Snyder's version of the DC universe, then who was supposed to be Nightwing the the _Nightwing_ movie WB was planning? Was it supposed to be some sort of prequel? Otherwise it doesn't make sense.


This thread is the first instance of dead DCEU-Dick I have encountered. I've always heard it was dead Todd up to now.

----------


## Frontier

They were never explicit in the movie who the dead Robin was, even though most people assumed it was Jason for obvious reasons.

I think the closest to any kind of official confirmation was some kind of museum tour that featured the mannequin, and the guide referred to it as Jason Todd.

----------


## Black_Adam

Here's the article: https://batman-news.com/2018/04/05/z...an-v-superman/




> It probably didn't go beyond the planning stages. A Nightwing movie wasn't announced when BvS was coming out, was it?


Not to mention in Suicide Squad they implied Joker and Harley killed Todd, again no one looking ahead in this universe, no plan.

But Zack didn't definitely say dead Robin IS Dick but his preference is pretty clear, right now it's just a story thread left open for the DCEU to explore further at some point.

As curious as I am to see the Snyder cut I can see why WB don't want to release it if it means making canon a bunch of Zack's narrative choices (which are extremely questionable at best) that WB doesn't want to be tied down to for future films.

----------


## Jokerz79

The Nightwing film was announced around February 2017 long after BvS and Suicide Squad were out and there was definitely a course change in the DCEU once BvS was released.

----------


## Soubhagya

Dick Grayson dead. This makes sense. Or why wasn't he around in Justice League? 

Gordon: "How many of you are there?"

Batman: "Not enough."

Batman was trying to recruit heroes. He was falling short. And he did not think about Nightwing? We can say that he is not of Justice League. But within the context of the story Batman was working to bring all heroes together. So, Nightwing and Batgirl should be obvious choices to help.

Really bad planning for DCEU. Death of Superman, Dark Knight Returns to start DCEU. And now i am hearing about a dead Dick Grayson. Way to go DC?

----------


## Agent Z

> Dick  Grayson, Jimmy Olsen, well thank God for Patty Jenkins or Etta Candy would had probably had gotten a double tap in the skull.


This was a story idea that never got off the ground nothing more. it never made it into any official version. And Jenkins killed off Steve Trevor so let's not act like Snyder is the only person who ever killed off a supporting character.

----------


## Agent Z

> I swear between this and what Justice League could’ve ended up being like, the more I’m glad Snyder is gone. He was shaping up to full edgelord on us more than he already did.


For the record, do we have any confirmation that Snyder's JL would have had anything worse than Superman being confused upon resurrection?

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Dick Grayson dead. This makes sense. Or why wasn't he around in Justice League? 
> 
> Gordon: "How many of you are there?"
> 
> Batman: "Not enough."
> 
> Batman was trying to recruit heroes. He was falling short. And he did not think about Nightwing? We can say that he is not of Justice League. But within the context of the story Batman was working to bring all heroes together. So, Nightwing and Batgirl should be obvious choices to help.
> 
> Really bad planning for DCEU. Death of Superman, Dark Knight Returns to start DCEU. And now i am hearing about a dead Dick Grayson. Way to go DC?


Right? Like why would you skip over so many potential storylines in favor of old Batman,  already dead Robin and Superman dying? Who thought this was a good idea?




> Dick  Grayson, Jimmy Olsen, well thank God for Patty Jenkins or Etta Candy would had probably had gotten a double tap in the skull.


LMAO. I still can't believe that was poor Jimmy. Snyder's a mess lmao.

----------


## Carabas

> But Zack didn't definitely say dead Robin IS Dick but his preference is pretty clear, right now it's just a story thread left open for the DCEU to explore further at some point.


I think we can all agree that at this point Zack Snyder's preferences are not going to be taken into account.

And I'll be very surprised if the dead Robin costume is ever even referenced again.

----------


## Jokerz79

> This was a story idea that never got off the ground nothing more. it never made it into any official version. And Jenkins killed off Steve Trevor so let's not act like Snyder is the only person who ever killed off a supporting character.


Jenkins killed Steve to give the story an emotional beat and the character wasn't going to be used again given it was a period piece. Snyder does this stuff to make his characters or films look "Badass" his superhero films are every worse trope of 90's comics put to film.

----------


## Confuzzled

> LMAO. I still can't believe that was poor Jimmy. Snyder's a mess lmao.


TBF when it comes to Jimmy, Jenny is basically a female version of him and I think that's what Snyder was initially going for before the internet outrage kept WB from explicitly revealing so. 

Also, it's just Jimmy Olsen. I mean, the casting of a black actor to play him in _Supergirl_ and a previously rumored casting of a female actor in _Man of Steel_ received far greater outcries than his treatment in BvS. You'd think fans would be more pissed with the jarring way their favorite character was killed in a movie in his introductory scene opposed to him being played by a black dude or a lady. Methinks his actual fanbase has vastly shrunk over the past half century or so and the people who raised a stink over the _Supergirl_ and _Man of Steel_ casting are just the general anti-diversity trolls who attack these diversity castings regardless of whether or not they actually care for the character.

----------


## Jokerz79

> TBF when it comes to Jimmy, Jenny is basically a female version of him and I think that's what Snyder was initially going for before the internet outrage kept WB from explicitly revealing so. 
> 
> Also, it's just Jimmy Olsen. I mean, the casting of a black actor to play him in _Supergirl_ and a previously rumored casting of a female actor in _Man of Steel_ received far greater outcries than his treatment in BvS. You'd think fans would be more pissed with the jarring way their favorite character was killed in a movie in his introductory scene opposed to him being played by a black dude or a lady. Methinks his actual fanbase has vastly shrunk over the past half century or so and the people who raised a stink over the _Supergirl_ and _Man of Steel_ casting are just the general anti-diversity trolls who attack these diversity castings regardless of whether or not they actually care for the character.


I agree it usually mostly trolls I mean Laurence Fishburne is great as Perry and I liked Sam Jones III as Pete Ross on Smallville but I had an issue with Jimmy on Supergirl and isn't race it's he's suave and cool and Jimmy is a dork and Supergirl Jimmy is Jimmy in name only really. As for Jenny the fact she's never shown to have a relationship with Clark outside of maybe saying hi at the office when Jimmy is Clark's Best friend then "Real" Jimmy is killed within minutes of being introduced tells me all I needed to know of what Snyder thinks of Jimmy.  Also Eisenberg was considered for Jimmy at one point before Lex simply because Snyder wanted to hire a name actor just to kill him in a few minutes to be "shocking" it's all about being "Cool or Badass" with Snyder.

----------


## Frontier

> TBF when it comes to Jimmy, Jenny is basically a female version of him and I think that's what Snyder was initially going for before the internet outrage kept WB from explicitly revealing so. 
> 
> Also, it's just Jimmy Olsen. I mean, the casting of a black actor to play him in _Supergirl_ and a previously rumored casting of a female actor in _Man of Steel_ received far greater outcries than his treatment in BvS. You'd think fans would be more pissed with the jarring way their favorite character was killed in a movie in his introductory scene opposed to him being played by a black dude or a lady. Methinks his actual fanbase has vastly shrunk over the past half century or so and the people who raised a stink over the _Supergirl_ and _Man of Steel_ casting are just the general anti-diversity trolls who attack these diversity castings regardless of whether or not they actually care for the character.


I dunno. When it came out I saw a lot of criticism for them killing off Jimmy like that, at least for the people who realized that was Jimmy Olsen.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> This was a story idea that never got off the ground nothing more. it never made it into any official version. And Jenkins killed off Steve Trevor so let's not act like Snyder is the only person who ever killed off a supporting character.


To be fair, killing off Steve Trevor is a much less bigger deal than killing off Dick Grayson. Plus, it was done very well. Snyder's execution of killing off Dick would probably, like most things he does, be a mix of an interesting/compelling idea and an iffy execution. 




> TBF when it comes to Jimmy, Jenny is basically a female version of him and I think that's what Snyder was initially going for before the internet outrage kept WB from explicitly revealing so. 
> 
> Also, it's just Jimmy Olsen. I mean, the casting of a black actor to play him in _Supergirl_ and a previously rumored casting of a female actor in _Man of Steel_ received far greater outcries than his treatment in BvS. You'd think fans would be more pissed with the jarring way their favorite character was killed in a movie in his introductory scene opposed to him being played by a black dude or a lady. Methinks his actual fanbase has vastly shrunk over the past half century or so and the people who raised a stink over the _Supergirl_ and _Man of Steel_ casting are just the general anti-diversity trolls who attack these diversity castings regardless of whether or not they actually care for the character.


I have to wonder where these Jimmy Olsen fans are the rest of the time. Yeah, killing "Jimmy" off like that is annoying, but Snyder still provided a very easy out: he's a CIA agent undercover, it doesn't even have to be the real Jimmy Olsen. Meanwhile, Jimmy, who once starred in his own comic series that lasted 163 issues, barely gets any interest or support from DC's writers and doesn't seem to have an overwhelmingly big fanbase clamoring for him to get a bigger role. But change his skin color or kill off a character barely resembling him who probably wasn't even the real Jimmy in the first place, and there is outrage.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

These off-screen deaths mean nothing. Commissioner Gordon was death as much as Grayson in the BvS' canon but, to me, he seemed to be fine in JL.  :Wink:

----------


## Agent Z

> Jenkins killed Steve to give the story an emotional beat and the character wasn't going to be used again given it was a period piece. Snyder does this stuff to make his characters or films look "Badass" his superhero films are every worse trope of 90's comics put to film.


Again, it was an idea that never got off the ground or made it into the movie. As for Jimmy, he hadn't been relevant to the Superman franchise in decades so I don't know where all the wailing and gnashing of teeth comes from. It isn't like the past movies or tv shows did anything of value with him. 

Also, can we stop acting like the 90s invented the idea of killing off characters for shock value?

----------


## Styles

Wonder Woman 2 Will Use IMAX Cameras for Select Sequences

----------


## Frontier

> I have to wonder where these Jimmy Olsen fans are the rest of the time. Yeah, killing "Jimmy" off like that is annoying, but Snyder still provided a very easy out: he's a CIA agent undercover, it doesn't even have to be the real Jimmy Olsen. Meanwhile, Jimmy, who once starred in his own comic series that lasted 163 issues, barely gets any interest or support from DC's writers and doesn't seem to have an overwhelmingly big fanbase clamoring for him to get a bigger role. But change his skin color or kill off a character barely resembling him who probably wasn't even the real Jimmy in the first place, and there is outrage.


There's an "out," but I'm not sure if Snyder intended it as such. 

I wouldn't say he has a super-outspoken or loud fanbase, at least compared to other characters, but I think there's enough people who care about and talk about Jimmy on this board beyond his race or death in BvS. 



> Again, it was an idea that never got off the ground or made it into the movie. As for Jimmy, he hadn't been relevant to the Superman franchise in decades so I don't know where all the wailing and gnashing of teeth comes from. It isn't like the past movies or tv shows did anything of value with him. 
> 
> Also, can we stop acting like the 90s invented the idea of killing off characters for shock value?


Even I'll say Jimmy hasn't been as well utilized as he deserves in a long time but I hesitate to say he hasn't been relevant to the franchise in decades.

----------


## Carabas

> TBF when it comes to Jimmy, Jenny is basically a female version of him and I think that's what Snyder was initially going for before the internet outrage kept WB from explicitly revealing so.


Of all the things about Snyder's Superman that the internet was/is outraged about, Jenny maybe being a version of Jimmy is what WB caved in on? I'm not buying it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Again, it was an idea that never got off the ground or made it into the movie. As for Jimmy, *he hadn't been relevant to the Superman franchise in decades* so I don't know where all the wailing and gnashing of teeth comes from. It isn't like the past movies or tv shows did anything of value with him.


He's no more irrelevant than most other characters in the franchise as it is currently. It's not like the Super books have done anything of value with anyone who isn't Clark himself, Lois, Lex or now (ugh) Jon for a while now. Kara's got her own little niche but that's about it.

Jimmy's appearances in the old radio shows and the George Reeves series proved popular enough that he got his own ongoing series, so I'd say that's something of value. If him not being able to sustain his own ongoing anymore makes him irrelevant, maybe we should apply that label to other characters who once held successful solo titles but aren't any more?

And while I wasn't as broken up about it as some, I do see why some people are flabbergasted that Synder thought it was a good idea to take a fun character from the Silver Age and shoot him in the goddamn face on the big screen.  





> There's an "out," but I'm not sure if Snyder intended it as such.


I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it was unintentional like you say, but it's an easy enough solution going forward. Plus, wasn't he not even named in the movie but just the credits? They could introduce and properly name Jimmy in whatever sequels we get and I doubt anyone in the casual audience will remember or notice.  




> I wouldn't say he has a super-outspoken or loud fanbase, at least compared to other characters, but I think there's enough people who care about and talk about Jimmy on this board beyond his race or death in BvS.


It's a small sample size though.

Though I agree that I think Jimmy SHOULD get more attention from creators and fans than he does.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It probably didn't go beyond the planning stages. A Nightwing movie wasn't announced when BvS was coming out, was it?





> The Nightwing film was announced around February 2017 long after BvS and Suicide Squad were out and there was definitely a course change in the DCEU once BvS was released.


Yeah, I didn't start seeing anything about a Nightwing movie for several months after BvS and SS had been released.




> This was a story idea that never got off the ground nothing more. it never made it into any official version. And Jenkins killed off Steve Trevor so let's not act like Snyder is the only person who ever killed off a supporting character.


Steve Trevor looked to be in his late 20's to early 30's during 1918.  See even if Steve were alive for the WW sequel which is supposed to be in 1980 Steve Trevor would be around 90 years old.
  He would be around 130 by the time Justice League came out.  So it's not like keeping Steve alive at the end of the WW would have mattered ultimately.  But there is nothing about Jimmy Olsen
that suggests he should be have to be killed off in BvS or that he couldn't have fulfilled a useful function in Justice League.




> Of all the things about Snyder's Superman that the internet was/is outraged about, Jenny maybe being a version of Jimmy is what WB caved in on? I'm not buying it.


I also doubt that was the real reason. Probably just some blogger's made up  nonsense.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah, I didn't start seeing anything about a Nightwing movie for several months after BvS and SS had been released.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Trevor looked to be in his late 20's to early 30's during 1918.  See even if Steve were alive for the WW sequel which is supposed to be in 1980 Steve Trevor would be around 90 years old.
>   He would be around 130 by the time Justice League came out.  So it's not like keeping Steve alive at the end of the WW would have mattered ultimately.  *But there is nothing about Jimmy Olsen
> that suggests he should be have to be killed off in BvS or that he couldn't have fulfilled a useful function in Justice League.*
> 
> 
> ...


He hasn't fulfilled a useful function in any Superman media in decades. You only need to look at the Supergirl tv series to see proof of this.

----------


## Frontier

> He hasn't fulfilled a useful function in any Superman media in decades. You only need to look at the Supergirl tv series to see proof of this.


I don't think the TV show mishandling Jimmy means he's completely useless or irrelevant to the franchise. 

I mean, Black Canary has more worth then _Arrow's_ treatment of her indicates. 

And I've also seen people comment that Winn is basically the Jimmy of the show, so we still see Jimmy's general function fulfilled in another character like him (which just goes to show how badly they handled the actual Jimmy).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> He hasn't fulfilled a useful function in any Superman media in decades. You only need to look at the Supergirl tv series to see proof of this.


What determines exactly what a "useful function" should be, and why can't he start serving one again in future adaptations?

----------


## Agent Z

> What determines exactly what a "useful function" should be, and why can't he start serving one again in future adaptations?


I'd say useful function would be something other than simply existing. Could he be better in a future adaptation? Maybe but thus far the comics and related media haven't done anything of value with him.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd say useful function would be something other than simply existing. Could he be better in a future adaptation? Maybe but thus far the comics and related media haven't done anything of value with him.


Well, I feel most comics and related media haven't utilized Superman and his supporting cast as well as they could be in general, and that extends to Jimmy.

----------


## Carabas

> And I've also seen people comment that Winn is basically the Jimmy of the show...


How  is their computer genius/omnidiciplinary scientist in anyway at all like Jimmy Olsen? He doesn't even take photos or transform into a turtle. He doesn't even have the Supergirl's best friend thing.

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## BatmanJones

> I dunno. When it came out I saw a lot of criticism for them killing off Jimmy like that, at least for the people who realized that was Jimmy Olsen.


I was among the outraged. That Snyder referred to killing him off without hardly telling us who he was as 'having some fun with the character' was in line with everything else I so disliked about his take on the DCEU. 

The people outraged by diversity casting are largely racists or people that will just never be happy if characters aren't carbon copies of the characters as they appear in comic books.

Killing off Jimmy Olsen, and doing it so cavalierly (thinking it's fun to kill off a long-beloved character in the background is a very weird idea of fun), was on an entirely different level than diversity casting. Diversity casting has a clear nobility to it; it's an attempt to address the racism that dominated comic books for too many decades. There is nothing good about what Snyder did and it ONLY felt like a giant "screw you" to comics fans.

----------


## BatmanJones

And I totally agree with the poster that said that the TV Supergirl Jimmy Olsen has zero in common with the actual character except his name and his name-drops of being friends with Clark. Not because he's black, because Jimmy has always been a nebbish and the TV version is a suave ladies man. Just an entirely different character. I'm fine with a black Jimmy Olsen. I'm fine with a black Lois Lane or a black Superman or Batman or any character of any race (major heroes legacy only I'd say but supporting characters' ethnicities can change without fundamentally changing the character). So what if Lois was black? So what if Jimmy is.

Just don't kill them off 'for fun' without ever using them, please.

----------


## BatmanJones

> This thread is the first instance of dead DCEU-Dick I have encountered. I've always heard it was dead Todd up to now.


Sorry to say it's not surprising that the only two people that have ever famously considered killing Dick Grayson are Dan DiDio and Zach Snyder.

If you care about DC Comics, Dick Grayson is like the one character you never kill. You just don't do it. Nothing good comes out of that. It's like killing innocence itself. It's like Snyder killing Jimmy Olsen times a million.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Also, can we stop acting like the 90s invented the idea of killing off characters for shock value?


Sure but it's mostly just a correction of a decade. The 80s invented killing off characters for shock value. It was done in the 70s but CoIE opened the floodgates.

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## Agent Z

> How  is their computer genius/omnidiciplinary scientist in anyway at all like Jimmy Olsen? He doesn't even take photos or transform into a turtle. He doesn't even have the Supergirl's best friend thing.


He has a somewhat similar personality to what people think of when Jimmy comes to mind and yes, he is considered Kara's best friend. They've said as much in the show.

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## BatmanJones

> Last I checked, he's not the actor. Nor the script writer.


There's a pretty clear rule about theatre v. cinema that goes like this:

In theatre, the playwright is the auteur. What the playwright says, goes.

In film, the director is the auteur and her/his take on the story is far more consequential than the playwright in theatre since the playwright can be dead in theatre but a film director is always overseeing all including casting and talking to actors about their characters (all directors do this) and the screenplay is only a guideline.

By law you can't change a playwright's words. It's in the contract. They become public domain 100 years after a writer's death and _then_ you can mess with them which is what's accounted for all the awful contemporizing of Shakespeare but which still protects Samuel Beckett.

In theatre the writer's word is sacrosanct. In film, it's a very low position on the totem pole, which is headed (always) by the director. In film a screenwriter gets two things: money and (sometimes) credit. But the written word is the opposite of sacrosanct in cinema; the studio has the right to screw with the words in any way and the director often just throws out new lines. That could NEVER happen in theatre. In film, studios can and almost always do pass drafts through several hands before arriving at a final screenplay. 

In theatre you can say "I liked the production but didn't care for the script." In film, you kind of can't because the director approves or changes the script at will. A film director is a king/queen/monarch. In theatre a director is only trying to honor the playwright, or should be.

----------


## Agent Z

> There's a pretty clear rule about theatre v. cinema that goes like this:
> 
> In theatre, the playwright is the auteur. What the playwright says, goes.
> 
> In film, the director is the auteur and her/his take on the story is far more consequential than the playwright in theatre since the playwright can be dead in theatre but a film director is always overseeing all including casting and talking to actors about their characters (all directors do this) and the screenplay is only a guideline.
> 
> By law you can't change a playwright's words. It's in the contract. They become public domain 100 years after a writer's death and _then_ you can mess with them which is what's accounted for all the awful contemporizing of Shakespeare but which still protects Samuel Beckett.
> 
> In film a screenwriter gets one thing and one thing only: money. Studios can and almost always do pass drafts through several hands before arriving at a final screenplay. In theatre the writer's word is the opposite of sacrosanct. In film, it's a very low position on the totem pole, which is headed (always) by the director.
> ...


When it comes to films like these, the director doesn't have nearly as much power as you think.




> Sorry to say it's not surprising that the only two people that have ever famously considered killing Dick Grayson are Dan DiDio and Zach Snyder.
> 
> If you care about DC Comics, Dick Grayson is like the one character you never kill. You just don't do it. Nothing good comes out of that. It's like killing innocence itself. It's like Snyder killing Jimmy Olsen times a million.


Or, and this is a crazy idea, liking DC comics does not mean liking every character and sometimes this includes fan favorites like Dick Grayson.

Can we please quit the no true Scotsman fallacy? This stuff doesn't help the reputation of comic book nerds.

And can I just say that your comment seems very odd coming from somebody who has defended Identity Crisis of all things and Snyder's work in the DCEU doesn't come any where close to how cruel that story was.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Snyder just said on Vero that the dead Robin in BvS is intended to be Dick Grayson because "It would make Bruce even darker" his words not mine, this is Dick freakin' Grayson! He loves to torture and punish these characters, jesus.


That was the final end for me in trying to give Zach Snyder a break for having an original vision even if I couldn't get off on it at all and badly wish they'd fired him _before_ Justice League.

I've been twisting myself into pretzels trying to see his point of view ever since buying and watching BvS extended cut (three times - yeah, it was better than the studio cut but not to the extent that it made a bad movie good) to try to appreciate what he was doing.

This though is like what he did to Jimmy Olsen times a million. I thank all goodness that he's no longer in charge of the DCEU and only hope it can recover from his influence.

----------


## BatmanJones

> When it comes to films like these, the director doesn't have nearly as much power as you think.
> 
> Or, and this is a crazy idea, liking DC comics does not mean liking every character and sometimes this includes fan favorites like Dick Grayson.
> 
> Can we please quit the no true Scotsman fallacy? This stuff doesn't help the reputation of comic book nerds.
> 
> And can I just say that your comment seems very odd coming from somebody who has defended Identity Crisis of all things and Snyder's work in the DCEU doesn't come any where close to how cruel that story was.


I agree studios have enormous influence over a director in the big-budget properties and I think it's only ever bad when they meddle with any director's vision. (If they don't like the director they shouldn't use him.) My point wasn't so much about the power of the director in film; it was to say that one can't ever blame a screenwriter because a director can change any script they want. A screenwriter is low on the totem pole. The director is atop it, or should be, in film. I agree nothing good comes from studio interference and I'd rather see Snyder's cut of JL than the Frankenstein we got.

As for ID Crisis, it depicted brutality but never disrespected the characters' fundamental natures. In fact it was a modern love letter to those characters. You don't have to agree with me on that. Art is subjective as it should be and we don't have to agree. There's no such thing as good/bad in art; only "good/bad _to me_." 

Superman doesn't kill and Batman doesn't kill and that is the fundament of each character so when your fresh idea for spicing them up is to make them both killers it's not exactly fanboy whining to complain about it. 

I liked Snyder's Watchmen a lot even though I found that one to be TOO reverent. A film director has to innovate. A theatre director actually doesn't and often shouldn't.

My problem isn't that Snyder isn't reverent. It's that he's cavalier about pitching the playbook out the window to make the DCU (literally, in terms of lighting even) dark black no matter what. 

I'm a theatre director and I direct dark black plays. I'm known for directing depressing plays that have no message or if they do it's "you might as well kill yourself now." An exception is the original musical I just opened last night after 2 years work on it. (It went great, thanks. Not all of them do.)

So I'm sensitive to Snyder as an artist. That's why I watched BvS extended so many times and rewatched Man of Steel several times. I was actively trying to love films I hated by seeing them from a different point of view.

What he did with Jimmy Olsen, what he apparently hoped to do with Dick Grayson, were the last straw for me. I don't think DiDio gets these characters either. It's a matter of personal taste and that's all it's a matter of. All responses to art are inherently subjective. I'm just describing the moment enough was enough for me. And explaining that I tried hard to love or even like or even accept Snyder's DCEU and just couldn't and I peg his insistence on deconstruction as his first step. 

Typically a character is deconstructed after one has done every possible thing to construct them. Snyder started burning sacred stuff at the stake his first time out of the gate and as a comics fan that understands that the movies have to be different from the comics his "fun" with killing off beloved characters without even having it mean anything was the final straw for me. 

After my initial reaction of extreme disappointment (esp. in BvS premiere I saw before embargoes lifted and expected to love the hell out of it) I went beyond what any fan should do in trying to see it his way and appreciate the DC films we had. And I do want to see his Justice League though I'm in no way surprised the studio freaked out after an allegedly "unwatchable" cut.

Sorry to fans that love these movies (you're right too - that's the great thing about art) that you won't get to see more of the universe you loved.

I'm very eager though to go back to the universe I love. The DC Universe.

I really only posted what I did though to say you can't pin the writing on a screenwriter or even the acting on an actor in film. The director (and unfortunately in this case, the studio) have say over that. The screenwriters and even the actors don't so much.

----------


## BatmanJones

I'm also really not trying to start another Snyder argument. That's well played out. I'm only reacting to recent news (Dick Grayson stuff) and particular posts ("he's not the screenwriter").

If you love Snyder's DCEU you're right. If you hate it you're right too. That's the wonderful thing about art. Nothing else is so inherently and patently subjective. And it's so destructive to argue good and bad about such a personal, subjective thing.

As for my personal tastes, deconstruction or challenging fundaments of a character only work when the character is firmly established. My problem wasn't that Snyder deconstructed; it was that it was his first move. 

When I'm directing a play I don't care if it's as famous as Waiting for Godot or Hamlet or Death of a Salesman; I know that most of my audience (any audience) is seeing the play for the first time. As such, I honor the playwright and leave deconstruction to universities and Shakespeare directors. And the ironic result is that I'm considered to be an extremely bold director when I'm only doing everything I can to honor the play. It's actually so rare to be reverent in this way that if one directs Beckett exactly as written it's funny as hell and everyone thinks I invent something new when I'm just doing a better job of honoring the playwright's intent. Such a rule doesn't exist in film. It's a different animal.

In superhero movies the basic conceit is already established with audiences and most have some knowledge of major characters. But each new generation experiences these characters for the first time in their generation. So it's also so that every new Batman movie is _someone's_ first exposure to the character. And not just someone but a lot of someones.

To me it would have been preferred to set up the fundaments of the characters before destroying them. Once you have introduced a character in their fundamental nature the coast is clear for deconstruction if that's where you want to go as a director. And then the deconstruction is far more powerful.

I loved Identity Crisis because I felt it was such a fresh take on a classic era and classic characters. If I hadn't had that history with the characters I wouldn't have loved it as I did and do. But since I do have that history it was great fun and very impactful to read about Meltzer putting them through the most awful ringer in the way he did. But I love deconstruction in comics because it's a different form. There are also new generations being introduced to these characters in comics just as in film. The difference is that most comic book fans are lifers or have a rich history with the characters so the coast is clear to be inventive to the extreme with them. And if you go too far, just slap Elseworlds on the cover or Black Label and then there's no such thing as "too far." But that's inherent to the fact that comic book readers tend to know the characters very well or if they're new and get hooked they can go back and do that.

A movie or series of movies is an entirely different animal.

But I don't mean to get crossways with Snyder fans. Just explaining my issue, with the benefit of a lot of retrospect.

I am with you, Snyder fans. I think he was badly wronged by DC and that this is a case where if the studio didn't like his vision they should have known that a lot sooner than they did and acted accordingly. I feel for Snyder and his fans. But mostly I feel for Snyder. As an artist it's very easy for me to identify with him and respect what he was trying to do even though it wasn't for me.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Dick being the one to be killed off in the DCEU would have probably been yet another homage to TDKR. Yes, that was Jason who died, but considering the comic was done as a response to the reputation earned from the Adam West series (in which Dick was Robin) and Bruce spends more time lamenting over Dick's absence in the story than Jason, I've always gotten the impression that Miller intended the dead Robin in the story to be Dick and changed it to Jason to line up with then-current continuity. Carrie is set up to be Dick's spiritual successor, not Jason's. Had Snyder's idea lead to anything, we'd likely see a new Robin debut in the DCEU...and it'd be Carrie Kelly. 

Dick dying would also get more of an emotional reaction. Jason dying is ho-hum, been there done that, and he'll be back anyway. And he wasn't even the main Robin. Dick would be unexpected with unknown consequences. But I can see why the idea didn't get too far; not only is Dick too popular to kill off in that way, it would rob us of the chance of seeing him adapted to the screen with the rest of DC's major characters. The character is owed a new chance at the big screen after the disaster that was B&R. Plus, there would be no chance for Red Hood, which is also potentially very lucrative.

All that said, killing Dick off is a bigger deal than Jimmy, but I cans see the logic behind it. Shooting Jimmy for fun is a little more "what the fuck?" even if it is a comparatively much easier fix with the way it was done. 





> I'd say useful function would be something other than simply existing. Could he be better in a future adaptation? Maybe but thus far the comics and related media haven't done anything of value with him.





> Well, I feel most comics and related media haven't utilized Superman and his supporting cast as well as they could be in general, and that extends to Jimmy.


Kara's corner of the Superman lore is getting good representation due to the show, but it's not like the rest of the media adaptations do the best job of showcasing anybody other than Clark, Lois, Lex and Zod, and arguably don't even utilize the full potential of those characters. Comics wise, they are more concerned with the marriage, his spawn and his goddamn underwear. Jimmy shouldn't be singled out and shot in the face because nobody is doing anything with him.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> And I totally agree with the poster that said that the TV Supergirl Jimmy Olsen has zero in common with the actual character except his name and his name-drops of being friends with Clark. Not because he's black, because Jimmy has always been a nebbish and the TV version is a suave ladies man. Just an entirely different character. I'm fine with a black Jimmy Olsen. I'm fine with a black Lois Lane or a black Superman or Batman or any character of any race (major heroes legacy only I'd say but supporting characters' ethnicities can change without fundamentally changing the character). So what if Lois was black? So what if Jimmy is.
> .


Not to beat a dead horse, but the Jimmy on Supergirl is what Jimmy is supposed to be like 12 years later and has been out having adventures with Superman for years, when he is no longer a naive kid.  And being in a relationship
with the gorgeous Lucy Lane would tend to give a guy plenty of confidence.  Plus it's not like he has been actively pursuing women. Kara basically seduced him and then dumped him.  Lena has been pretty aggressive too.
I think Winn is has scored with as many women as James has.
And anyway, the  BvS didn't come off as nebbish, what little we saw of him.  The faux Jimmy in Smallville wasn't nebbish.  The first Jimmy in Lois & Clark was as serious as a heart attack and the 2nd Jimmy was a bit of a player.
I think we have to go all the way back to the Adventures of Superman or maybe the Reeves movies to find a live action Jimmy that was a nebbish.   So I don't get why a Jimmy in his mid-30s is supposed to act like a dorky kid 
on Supergirl when none of the Jimmys have acted like that in live action for decades.  I don't recall anyone complaining about a white Jimmy that wasn't acting like the comic books Jimmy in those shows.

----------


## Robotman

> And I totally agree with the poster that said that the TV Supergirl Jimmy Olsen has zero in common with the actual character except his name and his name-drops of being friends with Clark. Not because he's black, because Jimmy has always been a nebbish and the TV version is a suave ladies man. Just an entirely different character. I'm fine with a black Jimmy Olsen. I'm fine with a black Lois Lane or a black Superman or Batman or any character of any race (major heroes legacy only I'd say but supporting characters' ethnicities can change without fundamentally changing the character). So what if Lois was black? So what if Jimmy is.
> 
> Just don't kill them off 'for fun' without ever using them, please.


Jack Kirbys version of Jimmy Olsen was very much a confident capable leading man. There were no signs of the young nerdy cub reporter in that book. So yes, there have been versions of Jimmy that are similar to the Supergirl interpretation of the character.

----------


## Frontier

> Jack Kirby’s version of Jimmy Olsen was very much a confident capable leading man. There were no signs of the young nerdy cub reporter in that book. So yes, there have been versions of Jimmy that are similar to the Supergirl interpretation of the character.


Jack Kirby's Jimmy was also much cooler and more impressive then _Supergirl_ Jimmy, especially because he went on crazy adventures without needing to be the garden variety vigilante he is as Guaridan  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## RepHope

> That was the final end for me in trying to give Zach Snyder a break for having an original vision even if I couldn't get off on it at all and badly wish they'd fired him _before_ Justice League.
> 
> I've been twisting myself into pretzels trying to see his point of view ever since buying and watching BvS extended cut (three times - yeah, it was better than the studio cut but not to the extent that it made a bad movie good) to try to appreciate what he was doing.
> 
> This though is like what he did to Jimmy Olsen times a million. *I thank all goodness that he's no longer in charge of the DCEU and only hope it can recover from his influence*.


Welcome to the club. I was so excited after MoS, I really thought Snyder had done a good job with a rookie Supes who has to take on an alien invasion all on his own. I thought we'd get a phenomenal Lex who would use Supes' mistakes in MoS to turn people against him. And then that terrible BvS movie where he doubled on all the parts that didn't work. His Lex was terrible, and he somehow managed to make a worse Doomsday than the mindless comic monster. Batman killing with guns which was totally dropped with Gordon not even trying to arrest him. Evil Superman and Pa Kent teaching Clark that people aren't worth saving so make one person the sole focus of your entire morality. WW giving up so easily.

I'm glad some of you were able to enjoy his work but I didn't, and I'm not sorry to see him go, or that they tossed his vision.

----------


## Agent Z

> Welcome to the club. I was so excited after MoS, I really thought Snyder had done a good job with a rookie Supes who has to take on an alien invasion all on his own. I thought we'd get a phenomenal Lex who would use Supes' mistakes in MoS to turn people against him. And then that terrible BvS movie where he doubled on all the parts that didn't work. His Lex was terrible, and he somehow managed to make a worse Doomsday than the mindless comic monster. Batman killing with guns which was totally dropped with Gordon not even trying to arrest him. *Evil Superman and Pa Kent teaching Clark that people aren't worth saving so make one person the sole focus of your entire morality. WW giving up so easily.*
> 
> I'm glad some of you were able to enjoy his work but I didn't, and I'm not sorry to see him go, or that they tossed his vision.


Literally none of these things happened.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Literally none of these things happened.


Yeah, I don't recall any of this, either. Of course, I wasn't wearing my hyperbole glasses.  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Jack Kirby’s version of Jimmy Olsen was very much a confident capable leading man. There were no signs of the young nerdy cub reporter in that book. So yes, there have been versions of Jimmy that are similar to the Supergirl interpretation of the character.


Bronze Age Jimmy ("Mr. Action) was pretty cool for most of that era, unless you saw him sporting his Silver Age outfit and haircut. In the latter stories, he was back to the "Jeepers, Mr. Kent!" Jimmy.

----------


## RepHope

> Literally none of these things happened.





> Yeah, I don't recall any of this, either. Of course, I wasn't wearing my hyperbole glasses.


Feel free to disagree, but I wasn't the only one who walked out of BvS feeling totally apathetic to every character in that film.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Feel free to disagree, but I wasn't the only one who walked out of BvS feeling totally apathetic to every character in that film.


I'm certainly not contesting your right to dislike that film or any other one. My disagreement is only with what actually appeared or didn't in the movie, nothing more.

----------


## RepHope

> I'm certainly not contesting your right to dislike that film or any other one. My disagreement is only with what actually appeared or didn't in the movie, nothing more.


Well in the interest of being fair, what did you make of that whole "you are my world" bit? I came away from that very unhappy, because it seemed that Snyder had utilized a trope I detest, that Superman needs Lois to relate to humanity, because he is unable to do so directly himself. Without her he goes berserk, hence the Knightmare. I'm not a fan of that interpretation.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well in the interest of being fair, what did you make of that whole "you are my world" bit? I came away from that very unhappy, because it seemed that Snyder had utilized a trope I detest, that Superman needs Lois to relate to humanity, because he is unable to do so directly himself. Without her he goes berserk, hence the Knightmare. I'm not a fan of that interpretation.


It's hard to say what's going on there in Superman's mind, since Darkseid is involved in the Knightmare. Did Clark flip out or is he being manipulated mentally? It's fair to say the loss of Lois didn't help.

----------


## Jokerz79

> It's hard to say what's going on there in Superman's mind, since Darkseid is involved in the Knightmare. Did Clark flip out or is he being manipulated mentally? It's fair to say the loss of Lois didn't help.


One of my favorite shows is Dr. Who so I'm cool with time travel but honestly that "Knightmare" never made sense to me. Is it a Dream? A Vision? A message from the future by Flash? I mean as a dream it works it's just Bruce's nightmare of what might happen but the Darkseid stuff given Steppenwolf in Justice League makes it more a vision of the future and not just some nightmare of Bruce's fears and then there is Flash popping up so is it Flash somehow showing Bruce this potential future? It just seemed it wanted to be multiple things that kind of made no sense all together.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> One of my favorite shows is Dr. Who


Your avatar kind of gave that away.  :Wink: 




> so I'm cool with time travel but honestly that "Knightmare" never made sense to me. Is it a Dream? A Vision? A message from the future by Flash? I mean as a dream it works it's just Bruce's nightmare of what might happen but the Darkseid stuff given Steppenwolf in Justice League makes it more a vision of the future and not just some nightmare of Bruce's fears and then there is Flash popping up so is it Flash somehow showing Bruce this potential future? It just seemed it wanted to be multiple things that kind of made no sense all together.


While I understood what was going on there, I have to concede it could have been handled better.

----------


## Frontier

> While I understood what was going on there, I have to concede it could have been handled better.


I think that ultimately sums up a lot about BvS.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Your avatar kind of gave that away. 
> 
> 
> 
> While I understood what was going on there, I have to concede it could have been handled better.


Oh yeah I never look at my Avatar I forgot it was him  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Oh yeah I never look at my Avatar I forgot it was him


Heh. Well, it's not Moe Howard.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

How Justice League Should Have Ended...




The moustache and Martha jokes will never die, eh?

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> How Justice League Should Have Ended...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The moustache and Martha jokes will never die, eh?


Oh god, that was better than the actual movie. LOL.

Also, I know that he's a joke villain, but Martha is rocking a sick costume. I wouldn't mind an actual villain wearing that in the comics. Haha. He looks like an evil Adam Warlock. I'm diggin' it.

----------


## Styles

'Batgirl' Movie Back On, Now With 'Bumblebee' Writer

----------


## Elmo

> 'Batgirl' Movie Back On, Now With 'Bumblebee' Writer


yikes. she wrote that god awful movie Shut In with Naomi Watts

----------


## Lightning Rider

> How Justice League Should Have Ended...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The moustache and Martha jokes will never die, eh?


Hehe, nice.

----------


## BlackClaw

> How Justice League Should Have Ended...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The moustache and Martha jokes will never die, eh?


“We have to be better guys.” Oh you have no idea Diana. Lol.

----------


## Confuzzled

> yikes. she wrote that god awful movie Shut In with Naomi Watts


It's Umberto Gonzalez but he claims she knocked it out of the park with the Birds of Prey script which got her the gig. Also, Birds of Prey is now a priority and they are searching for directors: https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status...223619072?s=21




> *Inaccurate. Hodson knocked the BOP draft out of the park, hence why she got Batgirl and BOP is out to directors as next Harley Quinn project. Project is not dead whatsoever but a priority.*

----------


## Jokerz79

> It's Umberto Gonzalez but he claims she knocked it out of the park with the Birds of Prey script which got her the gig. Also, Birds of Prey is now a priority and they are searching for directors: https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status...223619072?s=21


I can only go by what she has out already and it's the films Unforgettable and Shut In and both were awful so until Bumblebee comes out and I can judge that this isn't exciting news.

----------


## Nite-Wing

So the Harley Quinn movie is becoming a GCS vs BOP type movie?
I think they should just go with a Harley solo and not rush to introduce so many characters at once 
I get that Margot Robbie wants the female DC characters to get a push but stuff like that takes time

----------


## Carabas

> So the Harley Quinn movie is becoming a GCS vs BOP type movie?


It is currently not becoming anything.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

For those of you that watched the Legends of Tomorrow finale, didn't you think they did a much better job with Mallus than Justice League did with Steppenwolf?  Better design. More realistic looking, cleaner graphics.
Steppenwolf looked rather blurry, Mullus was much sharper, more detailed.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> So the Harley Quinn movie is becoming a GCS vs BOP type movie?
> I think they should just go with a Harley solo and not rush to introduce so many characters at once 
> I get that Margot Robbie wants the female DC characters to get a push but stuff like that takes time


You would think they would learn this by now lol

----------


## Confuzzled

> So the Harley Quinn movie is becoming a GCS vs BOP type movie?
> I think they should just go with a Harley solo and not rush to introduce so many characters at once 
> I get that Margot Robbie wants the female DC characters to get a push but stuff like that takes time





> You would think they would learn this by now lol


I mean, the 90's cartoon pulled something similar off in a mere 22 minute episode



Granted it didn't have to introduce all those characters but audiences are aware of who Batgirl, Poison Ivy and Catwoman are (all three were in a theatrical movie just last year). I'm guessing Black Canary or Huntress are the only newbie(s). A 120-135 minute movie, which is usually capable of featuring 5-6 characters, will have ample time to display the various dynamics.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Dwayne Johnson Teases That DC's BLACK ADAM Solo Film Is Expected To Begin Production In 2019: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/black...n-2019-a159514

----------


## batnbreakfast

After some musing on JL lately, maybe Steppenwolf is so rushed and underdeveloped because he was intended to be evil General Superman originally back then when JL was a two part movie. Just my theory. From now on I'll just pretend it since Steppenwolf is such an odd choice. Why not Granny, Kanto, Kalibak or Desaad? All of them would have been more interesting. On the other hand its probably better they weren't tarnished and here's still hope for their introduction in New Gods.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

That Evil Superman would have made JL even worse, it’s as Snyder can make cool scenes but lacks understanding for character development.

----------


## Carabas

> After some musing on JL lately, maybe Steppenwolf is so rushed and underdeveloped because he was intended to be evil General Superman originally back then when JL was a two part movie. Just my theory. From now on I'll just pretend it since Steppenwolf is such an odd choice. Why not Granny, Kanto, Kalibak or Desaad? All of them would have been more interesting. On the other hand its probably better they weren't tarnished and here's still hope for their introduction in New Gods.


How is Steppenwolf an odd choice? He's the natural choice.

Granny is the godess of evil parents, and runs stuff in Apokolips.
Desaad is the god of  torture and immoral science and not generally a guy who gets into fights.
Kalibak is just some rage monster. His natural role in this movie would have been be Steppenwolf's main muscle.
Kanto is an assassin/spymaster.

And Steppenwolf? he's always been portrayed as Darkseid's military commander. That's his main thing.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> How is Steppenwolf an odd choice? He's the natural choice.
> 
> Granny is the godess of evil parents, and runs stuff in Apokolips.
> Desaad is the god of  torture and immoral science and not generally a guy who gets into fights.
> Kalibak is just some rage monster. His natural role in this movie would have been be Steppenwolf's main muscle.
> Kanto is an assassin/spymaster.
> 
> And Steppenwolf? he's always been portrayed as Darkseid's military commander. That's his main thing.


Oh well, you are correct. Its just that I always found Steps to be the least interesting of the Apokolips family and evil Supes wouldn't have killed the movie for me. As long as that version of JL would have ended with Supes "waking up"

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> That Evil Superman would have made JL even worse, it’s as Snyder can make cool scenes but lacks understanding for character development.


The evil Superman thing is an unfounded rumor with nothing but unconfirmed reports but I will concede that its likely Supes(post his revival  when he was still somewhat amnesiac in the Snyder cut)was portrayed more ruthlessly and was more hostile.

My speculation predicated on a scene that never made it to the  theatrical cut but is present in the trailer released in March 2017.  This scene shows a tank being hurled at a cop in Heroes Park until Cyborg intervenes and pushes the tank away from killing the cop -after which he advises the cop "You should probably move".




Jump to  the 0:49 mark.

My theory is that it was none other than Superman who threw that tank nearly killing the officer, and that scene among others was a point of disagreement with Snyder by Johns and the executives who felt post-revival Superman was portrayed too maliciously so they opted to tone down Superman's menace in his confused state.  The military and cops likely got involved to respond to Superman in the Snyder cut originally.

----------


## Robotman

> The evil Superman thing is an unfounded rumor with nothing but unconfirmed reports but I will concede that its likely Supes(post his revival  when he was still somewhat amnesiac in the Snyder cut)was portrayed more ruthlessly and was more hostile.
> 
> My speculation predicated on a scene that never made it to the  theatrical cut but is present in the trailer released in March 2017.  This scene shows a tank being hurled at a cop in Heroes Park until Cyborg intervenes and pushes the tank away from killing the cop -after which he advises the cop "You should probably move".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jump to  the 0:49 mark.
> 
> My theory is that it was none other than Superman who threw that tank nearly killing the officer, and that scene among others was a point of disagreement with Snyder by Johns and the executives who felt post-revival Superman was portrayed too maliciously so they opted to tone down Superman's menace in his confused state.  The military and cops likely got involved to respond to Superman in the Snyder cut originally.


There are a number of things in the trailers that indicate many of the rumors are true. We see the museum blow up in the trailer which could mean Wonder Woman failed to save the hostages as was rumored to happen in the Snyder cut. 

Cyborgs origin being far more dark and depressing was already leaked from people who saw the prerelease screenings. 

Basically Zack Snyder went full on Zack Snyder.

----------


## Johnny

I've been thinking about GL's situation in the DCEU and Green Lantern Corps might just be in the worst position of any CBM now. Back in 2014 when they announced there would be a GLC movie as part of their original slate, it was obviously under the assumption that BvS would be a huge critical and financial success, and it would be followed up by a well-received JL film that would break box office records. The exact opposite happened. BvS made bank but didn't hit a billion and was universally panned. JL was also panned and flopped.

Now here is Green Lantern, a property that was already adapted once not that long ago into a critical and financial flop. Is WB likely to invest in a property like that again when they can't even get things right with most of their heavy hitters. I'm thinking in case Aquaman and Shazam are well-received critically and financially, it could potentially bode well for GL, but perhaps even that might not be enough. Given the circumstances, it could be a long time before we see another GL film, if we do at all.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

If they do a Green Lantern movie again just basically take inspiration from _Green Lantern: Earth One_  and you're golden.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/creepypuppet/sta...99957305520128

James Wan is filming Aquaman pick-ups with Randall Park as Dr. Shin from the Johns run.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Amber Heard shares a pic of herself in costume during the Aquaman reshoots...



https://www.instagram.com/p/BhhixEXAxvC/

----------


## jertz666

What do you guys think of Steven Spielberg directing a movie for the DCEU?  I bet the WB folks are currently working hard behind the scenes right now trying to sign him up.  I suspect that's one of the reasons they bankrolled his latest movie  "Ready Player One,"  a relatively expensive movie with uncertain box-office prospects.  He hasn't worked with WB in a long time so maybe they want to establish some sort of a relationship with him.   We know that  WB has approached several high profile directors like  Martin Scorsese, Mel Gibson, Michael Bay, Ava Duvernay, etc for directing gigs with the DCEU .... so why not Spieberg?

This crossed my mind while watching  "Ready Player One"  and reading articles about it.  While the movie has all kinds of pop culture references, DC properties seem to figure prominently:  

https://screenrant.com/ready-player-...ggs-dc-cameos/

I know Spielberg has spoken disparagingly of the superhero genre but he also said he loved the 70's Superman, the Dark Knight, the first Iron Man movie and -- his favorite -- the first  Guardians of the Galaxy film.   Personally, I think he'd be a great choice as a Superman director.

----------


## Hawkman

I definitely wouldn't be against Spielberg directing a DC film. He's still a visionary director in my eyes, and if nothing else his name brings a lot of clout with it. I just don't see it happening, though.

That said, hypothetically speak, I'd like to see him do a _Legion of Superheroes_ film. Something anchored to the greater DCEU, but also detached enough that Spielberg would have relative freedom while working on the property. I think he could go for that. It also seems equal parts out-there and larger-than-life to be right up his creative alley.

----------


## Soubhagya

> What do you guys think of Steven Spielberg directing a movie for the DCEU?  I bet the WB folks are currently working hard behind the scenes right now trying to sign him up.  I suspect that's one of the reasons they bankrolled his latest movie  "Ready Player One,"  a relatively expensive movie with uncertain box-office prospects.  He hasn't worked with WB in a long time so maybe they want to establish some sort of a relationship with him.   We know that  WB has approached several high profile directors like  Martin Scorsese, Mel Gibson, Michael Bay, Ava Duvernay, etc for directing gigs with the DCEU .... so why not Spieberg?
> 
> This crossed my mind while watching  "Ready Player One"  and reading articles about it.  While the movie has all kinds of pop culture references, DC properties seem to figure prominently:  
> 
> https://screenrant.com/ready-player-...ggs-dc-cameos/
> 
> I know Spielberg has spoken disparagingly of the superhero genre but he also said he loved the 70's Superman, the Dark Knight, the first Iron Man movie and -- his favorite -- the first  Guardians of the Galaxy film.   Personally, I think he'd be a great choice as a Superman director.


Spielberg could do just about anything. There's nothing he can't do. But first you have to get him. Superman? Are you kidding? I will be the happiest guy in the world. He would be the perfect choice for Superman. And great for just about anything.

----------


## Carabas

> Spielberg could do just about anything. There's nothing he can't do. But first you have to get him. Superman? Are you kidding? I will be the happiest guy in the world. He would be the perfect choice for Superman. And great for just about anything.


Yeah, but he's Spielberg.

If he wanted to do a Superman movie, he'd already have done so. And if he's not interested then there's no amount of money you can throw at him to make him cave in.

----------


## ross61

> I've been thinking about GL's situation in the DCEU and Green Lantern Corps might just be in the worst position of any CBM now. Back in 2014 when they announced there would be a GLC movie as part of their original slate, it was obviously under the assumption that BvS would be a huge critical and financial success, and it would be followed up by a well-received JL film that would break box office records. The exact opposite happened. BvS made bank but didn't hit a billion and was universally panned. JL was also panned and flopped.
> 
> Now here is Green Lantern, a property that was already adapted once not that long ago into a critical and financial flop. Is WB likely to invest in a property like that again when they can't even get things right with most of their heavy hitters. I'm thinking in case Aquaman and Shazam are well-received critically and financially, it could potentially bode well for GL, but perhaps even that might not be enough. Given the circumstances, it could be a long time before we see another GL film, if we do at all.


As long as Johns is still in charge we're getting a GLC movie.

----------


## Johnny

> As long as Johns is still in charge we're getting a GLC movie.


I thought he's not in charge anymore.

----------


## Gaastra

> Yeah, but he's Spielberg.
> 
> If he wanted to do a Superman movie, he'd already have done so. And if he's not interested then there's no amount of money you can throw at him to make him cave in.


Would love to see him do warlord or gotham academy. 

Also midnight edge strikes again.  I still think bay is a good pick for lobo myself.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Would love to see him do warlord or gotham academy. 
> 
> Also midnight edge strikes again.  I still think bay is a good pick for lobo myself.


My problem with Bay is Lobo is meant to be a satire of the very type of characters Bay loves to fill his films with and I can see that going over his head.

----------


## jertz666

> Yeah, but he's Spielberg.
> 
> If he wanted to do a Superman movie, he'd already have done so. And if he's not interested then there's no amount of money you can throw at him to make him cave in.


If your premise is true, then we would have seen  a James Bond movie directed by Steven Spielberg by now.   He has expressed interest in directing a Bond movie on more than one occasion but failed to land the gig.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a7142731.html

And that was in the 80's, when he was considered a hot property.  Clearly even the mighty Steven Spielberg can't get everything he wants.  That's probably more true now, now that he's no longer a dominant box-office force.

----------


## jertz666

> After some musing on JL lately, maybe Steppenwolf is so rushed and underdeveloped because he was intended to be evil General Superman originally back then when JL was a two part movie. Just my theory. From now on I'll just pretend it since Steppenwolf is such an odd choice. Why not Granny, Kanto, Kalibak or Desaad? All of them would have been more interesting. On the other hand its probably better they weren't tarnished and here's still hope for their introduction in New Gods.


It seems to me, that they initially meant JL to simply  be a stepping stone to JL 2.   Perhaps at the end of the movie,   Steppenwolf is supposed to reveal that he is merely an underling, a harbinger of the real threat -- Darkseid.   Of course, with the sequel cancelled, having  Steppenwolf be the main baddie of JL 1 suddenly seemed like an odd choice.   Why not Darkseid right off the bat ?   In the new 52, he was the reason the Justice League got together.

----------


## Carabas

> If your premise is true, then we would have seen  a James Bond movie directed by Steven Spielberg by now.   He has expressed interest in directing a Bond movie on more than one occasion but failed to land the gig.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a7142731.html
> 
> And that was in the 80's, when he was considered a hot property.  Clearly even the mighty Steven Spielberg can't get everything he wants.  That's probably more true now, now that he's no longer a dominant box-office force.


No, that was in the 70's, before Raiders Of The Lost Ark even, back when Spielberg was a promising upcoming director who had done a grand total of three movies and some tv work.

I also don't see the Spielberg of today still being interested in Bond.

----------


## jertz666

> No, that was in the 70's, before Raiders Of The Lost Ark even, back when Spielberg was a promising upcoming director who had done a grand total of three movies and some tv work.


Sorry, that was the 70's, you're right about that, but that's not really the point.   He made "Jaws" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" in the 70's and  was still rejected for the Bond gig AFTER those movies became huge hits.       Jaws was the highest grossing movie ever at that time.     Not only was CEOTK on the list of the highest grossing movies of all time  but it earned 8 Oscar nominations including one for Best Director.   So no, he wasn't a "promising upcoming director" at the time of his rejection.  Did you even read the article?  Lol.

No,  avoiding high-profile directors seem to be a deliberate choice for some franchises.  I read an article many, many years ago on why the Bond films were never directed by well known directors.    The reason according to the article is one of control...  A-list directors always want to put their own stamp on the series but Bond producers always insisted on tight control, particularly on the action scenes.  Those scenes were always shot by a second unit with little input from the director.    I can't remember the exact details but it's something along those lines.   if you bothered to read the article I linked too, it suggests another reason :  A-list directors are simply more expensive.  And , seriously, does anyone think the Bond movies need the Spielberg name to sell tickets?

Many franchises adopt this policy including the MCU, notably after phase 1.   At the time they directed their first MCU film, many of the phase 2 and 3 directors are unknown to the public and have little to no experience  directing big budgeted action films with heavy special effects.






> I also don't see the Spielberg of today still being interested in Bond.


At the time he pursued the Bond gig, the Bond movies were known for being lighthearted romps with a wise-cracking, womanizing lead.   It's a far cry from the current gritty and humorless take on the character.   So, no, he's probably not interested in the current version.  Besides his failure to land the Bond directorship led him and his friend George Lucas to develop their own version of the James Bond movies .... which ended up being the  Indiana Jones franchise.   That's a little bit of trivia from the HBO special Spielberg.

----------


## jertz666

> I definitely wouldn't be against Spielberg directing a DC film. He's still a visionary director in my eyes, and if nothing else his name brings a lot of clout with it. I just don't see it happening, though.


You're probably right  which means Ready Player One is the closest we'll get to a Spielberg directed DC movie.   Here's a blink-and-you'll-miss it scene from the movie.

ReadyPlayerOne.jpg

From left to right, the characters I can identify are...

Injustice 2 Aquaman with a futuristic gun
Batgirl
Injustice 2 Flash (further back)
Spawn
He-man
Spike from Gremlins
Joker
Nightwing (further back)

The leftmost character can't be Blue Beetle , can it?  I don't recognize the character with the batwings.... I don't think it's a Batman character but I could be wrong.






> That said, hypothetically speak, I'd like to see him do a _Legion of Superheroes_ film. Something anchored to the greater DCEU, but also detached enough that Spielberg would have relative freedom while working on the property. I think he could go for that. It also seems equal parts out-there and larger-than-life to be right up his creative alley.


I've had long discussions with someone at work on this.   It seems like the biggest stumbling block to putting LSH on cinemas would be the large cast.  How would you do justice to 20+ characters?    They can do it like the first X-men movie.  Focus on one character and follow him as he encounters the team.  Inevitably, some characters will get more development than others.  So maybe Superboy will be the primary focus of the movie ... he gets invited by the 3 charter members and we follow him to the future as he gets introduced to the team.   Those 3 members will probably get more screen time than the rest.  Will LSH fans be happy with this?  

I think a TV series would suit the LSH better... HBO or Netflix... CW doesn't have the budget.

a) each episode can be a standalone adventure with a roll call of 4 to 6 legionnaires.

or

b) each story arc can cover several episodes, or even an entire season ....  with multiple story arcs occurring simultaneously like in Game of Thrones.  There shouldn't be any rule on when a character should or shouldn't appear.  We leave it to the showrunners.   So Matter Eater Lad can appear in every episode of Season 2 and 3 but only appear in 3 episodes of Season 5.   He does not appear at all on Seasons 1 and 4.

I prefer the 2nd option but it's going to be a challenge juggling all those story lines and characters.  The CW shows tend to be a mix of a) and b)... each episode is standalone but there's an overall arc in each season which ties each episode.

----------


## Gaastra

> Sorry, that was the 70's, you're right about that, but that's not really the point. He made "Jaws" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" in the 70's and was still rejected for the Bond gig AFTER those movies became huge hits. Jaws was the highest grossing movie ever at that time. Not only was CEOTK on the list of the highest grossing movies of all time but it earned 8 Oscar nominations including one for Best Director. So no, he wasn't a "promising upcoming director" at the time of his rejection. Did you even read the article? Lol.


You think after jaws and close encounters he would have proven himself but nope.  People forget ET was going to be the big bomb kids movie.  Everyone was saying that.  M&Ms found out they were using them in the movie and put a stop to it.  They didn't want their product in this bomb.  So they used reese's pieces who said "you can use ours".  Sales of reese's pieces skyrocked after this shocking M&Ms.  Don bluth had his big movie secret of nimh and they put it on the same day as this bomb so it can be a hit.  (they were that sure it was going to bomb!)  ET crushed nimh like a bug!

It was after ET he became a big name. ET was a HUGE blockbuster and would get rerelesed many times.  Before that he still had trouble making movies so yes they would still say no to him to make 007  then.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

I think what people have to remember is that Spielberg at that time had become Spielberg, but he wasn't yet Spielberg.  :Smile:

----------


## skyvolt2000

https://shadowandact.com/john-ridley...-for-blumhouse




> John Ridley is writing and directing what'll be a timely film adaptation of his DC Comics series (under the Wildstorm and Vertigo imprints) The American Way, for Blumhouse. 
> 
> It will specifically be an adaptation of 2017's The American Way: Those Above and Those Below. 
> 
> The series first began as a follow up to The Ameican Way graphic novel. 
> 
> Definitely an interesting project for Jason Blum's Blumhouse, whose speciality is horror (ex. Get Out). Blumhouse is fast-tracking the project, so don't be surprised if we see it possibly late Q4 2018.


Guess we got our counter to Black Panther.

----------


## Jokerz79

Well since George Miller was once going to do a Justice League movie a long long time ago I thought mention this just to show a problem with WB's Management. Miller has said there will probably be no Fury Road sequels over a lawsuit where he says WB owes him 7 million dollars. He was promised 7 million if Fury Road came in under budget he said it did they say with added scenes it didn't and he counters he never wanted to do the added scenes they were forced on him and thus shouldn't effect his bonus. No matter ones opinion on if Miller should get the bonus it just seems so short sights to kill a franchise over 7 million dollars and thus why I think WB needs new management let alone their handling of the DCEU.

----------


## Robotman

> https://shadowandact.com/john-ridley...-for-blumhouse
> 
> 
> 
> Guess we got our counter to Black Panther.


ive always loved the concept of this book. i wish it was a part of the DCU and not creator owned. but good for Ridley getting to bring his creation to the big screen.




> You're probably right  which means Ready Player One is the closest we'll get to a Spielberg directed DC movie.   Here's a blink-and-you'll-miss it scene from the movie.
> 
> ReadyPlayerOne.jpg
> 
> From left to right, the characters I can identify are...
> 
> Injustice 2 Aquaman with a futuristic gun
> Batgirl
> Injustice 2 Flash (further back)
> ...


yeah that's Blue Beetle. looks like his Injustice character design.

----------


## jertz666

> You think after jaws and close encounters he would have proven himself but nope.  People forget ET was going to be the big bomb kids movie.  Everyone was saying that.  M&Ms found out they were using them in the movie and put a stop to it.  They didn't want their product in this bomb.  So they used reese's pieces who said "you can use ours".  Sales of reese's pieces skyrocked after this shocking M&Ms.  Don bluth had his big movie secret of nimh and they put it on the same day as this bomb so it can be a hit.  (they were that sure it was going to bomb!)  ET crushed nimh like a bug!
> 
> It was after ET he became a big name. ET was a HUGE blockbuster and would get rerelesed many times.  Before that he still had trouble making movies so yes they would still say no to him to make 007  then.


Did you even bother to read the article I linked to?

Spielberg:   "It didn't stop there either, the director adding: Then even after Close Encounters [of the Third Kind] came out and was a big hit - once again - I tried to get on a Bond film and now they cant afford me. So Barbara, forget it."

So if they couldn't afford him before  ET, how the hell could they afford him AFTER ET ?   It's not that they couldn't afford him, it's that they didn't really need him.  Big franchises don't need big directors to sell.   That's why few people know who directed the Harry Potter movies, the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, the Bond movies, the Star Trek movies, etc.   The exceptions are franchises started by big name directors who kept on directing films in the series, ex. Transformers and Indiana Jones.   There are other reasons to avoid big name directors but let's not get into that.     

The MCU case is instructive.   Phase 1 films were directed by well-known and experienced directors like Joss Whedon and Kenneth Branagh.  Now that we're well into phase 3, the last 3 MCU films were directed by Ryan Coogler, Taika Waititi and Jon Watts...none of them with experience in big budget features,  none of them A-listers.   The more well-known the MCU brand became,  the less well known the directors they pick.   Spielberg himself knows how to play the game.  When he produced Jurassic World, he picked Colin Treverrow to direct  ... a director with only one feature credit to his name, a small indie film called "Safety Not Guaranteed."    I know the choice surprised a lot of people back then.  And, yet, Jurassic World went on to gross 1.67 billion worldwide.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

*BIRDS OF PREY MOVIE IN DEVELOPMENT, WILL FEATURE HARLEY*
http://variety.com/2018/film/news/ca...ie-1202755503/




> Cathy Yan has been tapped to direct the next Harley Quinn movie based on the “Birds of Prey” comic with Margot Robbie attached to star.
> 
> Robbie’s LuckyChap is producing with Sue Kroll and her Kroll & Co Entertainment, along with Bryan Unkeless of Clubhouse Pictures.
> 
> Christina Hodson, who was recently tapped to pen the “Batgirl” pic, wrote the script.
> 
> The studio had been weighing several Quinn options, including a “Suicide Squad” sequel with Gavin O’Connor, before picking “Birds of Prey.” Sources add that script is still being worked on, but Yan is likely to take over directing reigns once script is done being worked on.
> 
> Production is expected to start at the end of the year after Robbie finishes shooting Quentin Tarantino’s “Once Upon Time in Hollywood,” which she is currently in negotiations to play Sharon Tate in.


I guess Suicide Squad 2 is on the backburner, out of the picture, or there's no Harley in it.

----------


## Frontier

> *BIRDS OF PREY MOVIE IN DEVELOPMENT, WILL FEATURE HARLEY*
> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/ca...ie-1202755503/
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Suicide Squad 2 is on the backburner, out of the picture, or there's no Harley in it.


I don't know how I feel about them shoving Harley into a Birds of Prey movie.

Why not just carry on with a Gotham City Sirens movie? Unless they can't do that without Ayer at this point.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I don't know how I feel about them shoving Harley into a Birds of Prey movie.
> 
> Why not just carry on with a Gotham City Sirens movie? Unless they can't do that without Ayer at this point.


For all we know, Harley will be the villain, or one of the villains, of the story and the Birds will still be the stars.

A little unlikely since Robbie's own production company will be producing, but who knows? Maybe Robbie wants to play a real bad guy for a change?

----------


## Hawkman

I never count on any of these announced films until the cameras are actually rolling.

That said, while I personally have no interest in a film about or even featuring Harley, the character's cachet is undeniable. From a monetary standpoint, it makes sense to feature her whenever possible. And a villain or even anti-hero role in a _Birds of Prey_ film isn't that far of a stretch, in my opinion. If she's the star or hero of the film, though? Yeah, I'd probably have a problem with that.

----------


## Johnny

The Deadline article where the Birds of Prey news originated from still mentions Geoff Johns as overseeing the DCEU with Walter Hamada. I guess he won't be much of an "advisor" after all.

https://deadline.com/2018/04/harley-...on-1202365866/




> "This is a bold bet for Warner Bros’ Geoff Johns and Walter Hamada, who oversee DC under Toby Emmerich."

----------


## Frontier

> For all we know, Harley will be the villain, or one of the villains, of the story and the Birds will still be the stars.
> 
> A little unlikely since Robbie's own production company will be producing, but who knows? Maybe Robbie wants to play a real bad guy for a change?


I would enjoy that, but with Robbie spearheading this, the movie apparently being poised to be as much of a Harley vehicle as it is for the ladies of the DCU, and DC's own general backtrack from depicting Harley as a villain...I'm not expecting it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't know how I feel about them shoving Harley into a Birds of Prey movie.
> 
> Why not just carry on with a Gotham City Sirens movie? Unless they can't do that without Ayer at this point.


I would have loved a Sirens film but I suspected this would happen. BoP has much stronger source material than the inconsistent borderline mess that was the Sirens' single volume. Plus that book veered a lot into cheesecake/camp territory. So I understand if WB had reservations about making a Sirens movie, especially at this current stage when they need to be very careful with their DC projects.  

Also, people have theorised this is more of a Sirens vs. BoP movie. Similar to TNBA episode *Girls Night Out* but replace the Superman characters with Batman/BoP characters (though I wouldn't put it past WB to include Supergirl just because of her name recognition and current popularity  :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> The Deadline article where the Birds of Prey news originated from still mentions Geoff Johns as overseeing the DCEU with Walter Hamada. I guess he won't be much of an "advisor" after all.
> 
> https://deadline.com/2018/04/harley-...on-1202365866/


Yeah. I figured all the claims that Geoff Johns was out as co-president of DC Films were just a lot of bull. Nothing says someone that oversees the movies can't also offer advice.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"As for SUICIDE SQUAD 2, clearly moving out of 2018 shoot. The move to go with BOP not only had a lot to do with Hodson's script but also the idea of doing with BATGIRL what Marvel did with Black Panther in CIVIL WAR by introducing them into universe before giving them own film"_

https://twitter.com/krolljvar/status/986283768418848769

----------


## MaxQuick

> It seems to me, that they initially meant JL to simply  be a stepping stone to JL 2.   Perhaps at the end of the movie,   Steppenwolf is supposed to reveal that he is merely an underling, a harbinger of the real threat -- Darkseid.   Of course, with the sequel cancelled, having  Steppenwolf be the main baddie of JL 1 suddenly seemed like an odd choice.   Why not Darkseid right off the bat ?   In the new 52, he was the reason the Justice League got together.


Well, some other bits he's said seem to indicate Snyder thought he would be doing this _for awhile_, so it's entirely possible he was building to Darkseid as the main threat that finally unites the League...

... in 'Justice League, Pt. 8: Darkseid & The Legion Of GrimDoom'

----------


## Confuzzled

> _"As for SUICIDE SQUAD 2, clearly moving out of 2018 shoot. The move to go with BOP not only had a lot to do with Hodson's script but also the idea of doing with BATGIRL what Marvel did with Black Panther in CIVIL WAR by introducing them into universe before giving them own film"_
> 
> https://twitter.com/krolljvar/status/986283768418848769


Or what DC did with Wonder Woman in Batman v Superman.  :Wink:

----------


## Johnny

> Or what DC did with Wonder Woman in Batman v Superman.


Those "reporters" seem to forget about that quite often, don't they.

----------


## Raijin

As long as Barbara is in a wheelchair and as long as the team isn't filled with white women. I'll throw my money at it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> As long as Barbara is in a wheelchair and as long as the team isn't filled with white women. I'll throw my money at it.


Seeing how the director is Asian and that too of Chinese descent, I wonder if she's interested in pushing for Cassandra as Batgirl with Oracle being her mentor.

----------


## Johnny

> As long as Barbara is in a wheelchair and as long as the team isn't filled with white women. I'll throw my money at it.


I don't like Barbara in a wheelchair and I have no issues at all with a team filled with white women.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Nite-Wing

They should have just did a Harley Quinn solo or Gotham city sirens
WB still hasn't learned their lesson about not forcing characters together.
A Harley Quinn starting in the BOP seems wrong

----------


## Confuzzled

> They should have just did a Harley Quinn solo or Gotham city sirens
> WB still hasn't learned their lesson about not forcing characters together.
> A Harley Quinn starting in the BOP seems wrong


Well, she technically started in Suicide Squad. Also, there has been precedence with all these Gotham based female characters crossing each others' paths. And both the script and director apparently impressed Margot Robbie and WB to a great degree.




> Despite being a new talent, Yan’s presentation for Birds of Prey was exceptional, and Robbie held firm to her desire for this film to be directed by a woman.


http://deadline.com/2018/04/harley-q...on-1202365866/

----------


## Raijin

> Seeing how the director is Asian and that too of Chinese descent, I wonder if she's interested in pushing for Cassandra as Batgirl with Oracle being her mentor.


That would be refreshing to see, to be honest. It's rare to see an asian man or woman as a hero in an American film.

----------


## Johnny

> Seeing how the director is Asian and that too of Chinese descent, I wonder if she's interested in pushing for Cassandra as Batgirl with Oracle being her mentor.


Given Bruce's age and Robin's murder, it begs the question if Babs has retired as Batgirl at this point.

----------


## Robotman

Doesnt sound like the plan for the movie has changed too much. I recall the rumored premise for Gotham City Sirens had it featuring the Birds of Prey. So it sounds like it will have a similar team up plot but will instead just be called Birds of Prey. I think Gotham City Sirens is a much better title as Gotham City is already a well know pop culture property. But I guess it doesnt matter what its called as long as it features Harley. 

Glad theyre going with a new director. Just please go with a new costume designer for Harley. I really hated the light blue and pink look. Harley should be in black and red. Also, no more cheesy face tattoos and Dads Little Monster crap.

Maybe itll be Babs, Black Canary, Katana, Ivy, Harley, and Catwoman.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I can sort of imagine how this movie was pitched 
Margot Robbie is the star and producer so she asks about an all female DC team up project.
WB/DC give her GCS and BOP
The project with the female director gets pushed forward.

Now WB may want to use this as a launching pad for Batgirl but that's going to depend on who they cast really

BOP really have no type the of GA credit apart from the really bad TV series(which coincidentally also features Harley)

----------


## Armor of God

> Seeing how the director is Asian and that too of Chinese descent, I wonder if she's interested in pushing for Cassandra as Batgirl with Oracle being her mentor.


These decisions are made by the studio, the screenplay has already been written and said writer has begun working on Batgirl featuring Babs.

----------


## Assam

> Seeing how the director is Asian and that too of Chinese descent, I wonder if she's interested in pushing for Cassandra as Batgirl with Oracle being her mentor.





> As long as Barbara is in a wheelchair and as long as the team isn't filled with white women. I'll throw my money at it.


Sadly we live in a crappy world where I doubt we'll be lucky enough for either of these things to happen. You never know though...




> BOP really have no type the of GA credit apart from the really bad TV series(which coincidentally also features Harley)


Flaws and all I still love that show, far more so than anything to come from the DCEU so far.




> These decisions are made by the studio, the screenplay has already been written and said writer has begun working on Batgirl featuring Babs.


Until casting is finalized and filming starts, nothing actually matters. And even then things can still get stuck in development Hell.

----------


## Armor of God

> Doesn’t sound like the plan for the movie has changed too much. I recall the rumored premise for Gotham City Sirens had it featuring the Birds of Prey. So it sounds like it will have a similar team up plot but will instead just be called Birds of Prey. I think Gotham City Sirens is a much better title as “Gotham City” is already a well know pop culture property. But I guess it doesn’t matter what it’s called as long as it features Harley. 
> 
> Glad they’re going with a new director. Just please go with a new costume designer for Harley. I really hated the light blue and pink look. Harley should be in black and red. Also, no more cheesy face tattoos and “Dad’s Little Monster” crap.
> 
> Maybe it’ll be Babs, Black Canary, Katana, Ivy, Harley, and Catwoman.


BOP has greater value, its got runs that are well regarded such as the ones by Simone and Dixon.
Its an established brand on to itself. Sirens is not, the characters inside the team are popular but the team really has no standing in DC. It could be called Gotham girls or Gotham dames. Its just a team they cobbled together because Dini wrote Harley & Ivy and they needed Catwoman adjusted somewhere. Sirens isn't really a thing, they have no purpose or place, its not a brand. The individual characters like Catwoman and Harley especially are the real brands.
BOP has recognition as DC leading team of women and always has been since inception. Its branding is important.

----------


## Frontier

Whenever there's been any kind of official report about the movie, it's seemed pretty definite that the Batgirl will be Barbara Gordon, although who knows what the DCEU has going on at this point.

I am kind of curious if they'll go more diverse with Huntress' casting.

----------


## Armor of God

> Until casting is finalized and filming starts, nothing actually matters. And even then things can still get stuck in development Hell.


They seem to be moving forward with this finally, after almost 2 years of chatter so its past the stage where it might get stuck. I wont rule it out but its unlikely.

As for casting, they've got Harley and if its going to be called BOP then which Batgirl do you think they'll go with?the one synonomous with the franchise or the one who has showed up in a handful of issues? And since the Batgirl movie is on track the choice of which Batgirl to use is out of the directors hands. Besides she's not powerful enough to wrestle the studio and can use Katana too if she Asians represented and Tatsu was a Bird herself.

----------


## Punisher007

I wonder if they'd acknowledge the Harley/Ivy relationship overtly in the films?

Also can Katanna please be in this?  She was so underused in SS and this might be a better place for her.

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder if they'd acknowledge the Harley/Ivy relationship overtly in the films?


It would probably be present to some degree, but how overt they are with it would probably depend a lot on the creators, how much screentime they have, and their depictions of Harley and Ivy. 

I would expect a _lot_ of subtext.

----------


## Assam

> Whenever there's been any kind of official report about the movie, it's seemed pretty definite that the Batgirl will be Barbara Gordon, although who knows what the DCEU has going on at this point.


I owe this to the combined factors of Joss's script being confirmed to be about Babs and most casuals just only knowing Babs in general. 




> As for casting, they've got Harley and if its going to be called BOP then which Batgirl do you think they'll go with?the one synonomous with the franchise


No 'Batgirl' is synonymous with the franchise. _Oracle_ is. 

Also, with the success of the MCU, its become pretty clear that something being 'iconic'  doesn't mean jack.

----------


## Confuzzled

> BOP has greater value, its got runs that are well regarded such as the ones by Simone and Dixon.
> Its an established brand on to itself. *Sirens is not, the characters inside the team are popular but the team really has no standing in DC. It could be called Gotham girls or Gotham dames. Its just a team they cobbled together because Dini wrote Harley & Ivy and they needed Catwoman adjusted somewhere. Sirens isn't really a thing, they have no purpose or place, its not a brand. The individual characters like Catwoman and Harley especially are the real brands.*
> BOP has recognition as DC leading team of women and always has been since inception. Its branding is important.


Oh hold up. While I agree about the things you said about BOP, it doesn't mean that Sirens has "no purpose" or "place". It's an extension of the very popular _Thelma & Louise_-esque dynamics of Harley and Ivy with ladies helping each other and saying a big eff you to society. And the amount of online attention received by the announcement of the "Gotham City Sirens" movie announcement shows there is a demand for it. Just because the comics have been weak doesn't mean the concept doesn't have great potential.

But as I mentioned in a previous post, if WB is more comfortable doing a Birds of Prey film or a Birds of Prey vs. Gotham City Sirens film rather than just a Sirens film, then that's what they should go for. They cannot afford to pursue a project they are unsure of handling at this point. So better stick to something they are confident of, as seems to be the case with this director and writer's vision of BOP.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It would probably be present to some degree, but how overt they are with it would probably depend a lot on the creators, how much screentime they have, and their depictions of Harley and Ivy. 
> 
> I would expect a _lot_ of subtext.


Korrasami level is my guess.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I honestly think we need a concrete basis of the Batman mythos in the DCEU before we start pumping out more of his characters...

----------


## Armor of God

> No 'Batgirl' is synonymous with the franchise. _Oracle_ is.


You do realize that they're currently publishing a book called Batgirl and the BOP with Babs as Batgirl right. Besides Babs is Babs, whether she's wearing spandex or sitting behind a screen it makes no difference to the suits. Just like Dick is Robin and Nightwing and will represent the Teen Titans franchise regardless of his mantle.




> Also, with the success of the MCU, its become pretty clear that something being 'iconic'  doesn't mean jack.


Um MCU has pretty much used iconic characters and its not really a straight comparison because Batgirl *is* iconic.

----------


## Frontier

> I owe this to the combined factors of Joss's script being confirmed to be about Babs and most casuals just only knowing Babs in general.


It was also reported to be Babs when they attached the new writer to the picture, as I recall. 



> No 'Batgirl' is synonymous with the franchise. _Oracle_ is.


Suffice to say, Barbara Gordon in some form is synonymous with the franchise. 



> Also, with the success of the MCU, its become pretty clear that something being 'iconic'  doesn't mean jack.


Just ask Janet Van Dyne, Miles Morales, or May Jane Watson fans  :Frown: .



> I honestly think we need a concrete basis of the Batman mythos in the DCEU before we start pumping out more of his characters...


I mean, we're not even sure who's going to be playing Batman moving forward.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Just ask Janet Van Dyne, Miles Morales, or May Jane Watson fans .


In MJ's case though, they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They're letting casual audiences think they cast an actress of color as the iconic love interest, while Feige is non-committal about it when questioned by geek fansites which are frequented by a more hardcore base who may raise issues about her characterization being very different to her comics' persona.

----------


## Armor of God

> Oh hold up. While I agree about the things you said about BOP, it doesn't mean that Sirens has "no purpose" or "place". It's an extension of the very popular _Thelma & Louise_-esque dynamics of Harley and Ivy with ladies helping each other and saying a big eff you to society. And the amount of online attention received by the announcement of the "Gotham City Sirens" movie announcement shows there is a demand for it. Just because the comics have been weak doesn't mean the concept doesn't have great potential.
> 
> But as I mentioned in a previous post, if WB is more comfortable doing a Birds of Prey film or a Birds of Prey vs. Gotham City Sirens film rather than just a Sirens film, then that's what they should go for. They cannot afford to pursue a project they are unsure of handling at this point. So better stick to something they are confident of, as seems to be the case with this director and writer's vision of BOP.


There's a demand for the characters not the Sirens brand. Like I said they can be renamed as Gotham bad girls led by Margot's HQ and that announcement would have trended.
Even the omnibus for that run has been titled, now get this "Harley Quinn and the Gotham City Sirens". 
DC could have resurrected the Sirens but clearly Harley and Catwoman on their own separate books makes more money for them. Similarly HQ's association with the Squad has lasted multiple times longer than her association with the Sirens brand. Both in terms of issues and time duration.

----------


## El_Gato

> Whenever there's been any kind of official report about the movie, it's seemed pretty definite that the Batgirl will be Barbara Gordon, although who knows what the DCEU has going on at this point.
> 
> I am kind of curious if they'll go more diverse with Huntress' casting.


Sadly that's probably how it'll go. It's apparently easier to cast a diverse actor as a White character than to cast them as an actual diverse character... Oh well. I'm hoping for Katana!

----------


## Robotman

> BOP has greater value, its got runs that are well regarded such as the ones by Simone and Dixon.
> Its an established brand on to itself. Sirens is not, the characters inside the team are popular but the team really has no standing in DC. It could be called Gotham girls or Gotham dames. Its just a team they cobbled together because Dini wrote Harley & Ivy and they needed Catwoman adjusted somewhere. Sirens isn't really a thing, they have no purpose or place, its not a brand. The individual characters like Catwoman and Harley especially are the real brands.
> BOP has recognition as DC leading team of women and always has been since inception. Its branding is important.


thats true. also, no one outside of comic book fans knew what the Suicide Squad was before the movie and now it's one of DC's most well known properties. with Harley and Batgirl headlining the movie, the Birds of Prey could become a huge franchise.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I honestly think we need a concrete basis of the Batman mythos in the DCEU before we start pumping out more of his characters...


People know about the relationship between Batman and his most prominent foes and friends after about 10 theatrical films now. We can move on to some of the spin-off characters without having to retread all of that again.

----------


## Frontier

> In MJ's case though, they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They're letting casual audiences think they cast an actress of color as the iconic love interest, while Feige is non-committal about it when questioned by geek fansites which are frequented by a more hardcore base who may raise issues about her characterization being very different to her comics' persona.


And fans are denied seeing Mary Jane on film once again  :Frown: .

----------


## Johnny

> I owe this to the combined factors of Joss's script being confirmed to be about Babs and most casuals just only knowing Babs in general. 
> 
> 
> 
> No 'Batgirl' is synonymous with the franchise. _Oracle_ is. 
> 
> Also, with the success of the MCU, its become pretty clear that something being 'iconic'  doesn't mean jack.


It's not just about being "iconic", Barbara is an overall much easier sell for casual fans. Everyone knows about Commissioner Gordon, her being his daughter instantly gives her a direct connection to the core Batman mythos even if the casual fans never knew about her before.

Besides, the MCU still started with their most "iconic" characters, before bringing in heroes noone knew about.

----------


## Frontier

> Besides, the MCU still started with their most "iconic" characters, before bringing in heroes noone knew about.


Not to mention they moved other movies up (including _Black Panther_) the moment they got to make a Spider-Man movie again.

----------


## Assam

> You do realize that they're currently publishing a book called Batgirl and the BOP with Babs as Batgirl right. .


You do realize that that book has been cancelled because of low sales and that this was the second time Babsgirl being with the BoP has been poorly received, right?

Again, I have no delusions that the films won't have Babsgirl. Just don't think its an absolute, much like I doubt that these films will actually get made. 




> Um MCU has pretty much used iconic characters


 Scott Lang, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the changing of the Avengers founding line-up,  *Black Panther*; I could go on. (edit: Fair points mentioned above) Although I will mention that Ant-Man perfectly showed how you can have a superhero movie about a legacy hero without their predecessor having ever gotten a movie.

----------


## Johnny

> In MJ's case though, they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They're letting casual audiences think they cast an actress of color as the iconic love interest, while Feige is non-committal about it when questioned by geek fansites which are frequented by a more hardcore base who may raise issues about her characterization being very different to her comics' persona.


The "MJ" debacle is probably my least favorite thing the MCU has ever done, and that says a lot.

----------


## Badou

Man, Cass fans are so desperate for anything. Anything that has the slightest mention of Batgirl they just jump on it. Cass hasn't been Batgirl closing in on a decade now. 

Anyway, using Birds of Prey as a Harley vehicle seems really bizarre. I mean they already have Suicide Squad and a Harley/Joker movie for that, or they could use Gotham City Sirens which is a female team with Harley. It just seems like such an odd choice to use another team to push Harley more, but a lot of DC's decisions are head scratches.

----------


## Confuzzled

> There's a demand for the characters not the Sirens brand. Like I said they can be renamed as Gotham bad girls led by Margot's HQ and that announcement would have trended.
> Even the omnibus for that run has been titled, now get this "Harley Quinn and the Gotham City Sirens". 
> DC could have resurrected the Sirens but clearly Harley and Catwoman on their own separate books makes more money for them. Similarly HQ's association with the Squad has lasted multiple times longer than her association with the Sirens brand. Both in terms of issues and time duration.


Sirens may be lesser than the sum of the three characters' parts but I think it's mostly because Dini and co. didn't exactly know how to incorporate Selina into Harley & Ivy's already established dynamics. Though I did love that Blackest Night: Catwoman one-shot showing the Sirens working together so it could definitely be done.

If DC got writers who know how to make Sirens work to its fullest potential, it would WORK. But I think they are getting writers who are more comfortable with Harley and Catwoman solos. And in Ivy's case, they are using her in roles all over the board with solo mini-series, supporting character for Harley, Villain of the Week in various titles, Birds of Prey member and maybe an upcoming role in whatever Tom King has got planned for his _Sanctuary_ concept. It just depends on finding the best creator but since the characters are already making money in other capacities, DC is like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Btw I think it was renamed HQ and the Sirens to appeal to that Suicide Squad movie fanbase who were enamored by Harley.

----------


## Frontier

> Scott Lang, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the changing of the Avengers founding line-up,  *Black Panther*; I could go on. (edit: Fair points mentioned above) Although I will mention that Ant-Man perfectly showed how you can have a superhero movie about a legacy hero without their predecessor having ever gotten a movie.


I'd say Black Panther was pretty iconic in his own right before he got his movie, which is probably why he did end up getting his own movie to some degree. 

_Ant-Man_ also showed that you can basically just create an OC legacy character, even if that ends up displacing a far bigger and more important character in the comics.

----------


## Johnny

> And fans are denied seeing Mary Jane on film once again .


I still don't get if they were so determined to cast a poc, why couldn't they just do what the Flash show did with Iris. She's still Iris West, just not white. She's not some random black woman who just happens to have the same initials. What kind of dumb****ery was that.

----------


## Jabare

are we going to get an Aquaman trailer?

am I the only one still somewhat interested in this film?

----------


## Frontier

> are we going to get an Aquaman trailer?
> 
> am I the only one still somewhat interested in this film?


No, I am too  :Smile: . 

I imagine they've been holding back so much from that movie because they don't want to make any kind of mistake or misstep after _Justice League_, so they're being very careful about what they release.

----------


## Assam

> am I the only one still somewhat interested in this film?


Eh. I've been somewhat disinterested ever since we first saw Momoa's costume and even less so since we got to see his take on the character in Justice League. The only reasons I plan on seeing the movie at all are because Amber Heard as Mera looks perfect and I like to be able to properly critique things. 

Honestly I'm kind of hoping it and Shazam flop. By that point I doubt even Wonder Woman 2 would be able to save this garbage franchise and they might just pull the plug after it.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> are we going to get an Aquaman trailer?
> 
> am I the only one still somewhat interested in this film?


Not at all. I'm still interested too.

Some people were expecting a trailer late last month. James Wan had to debunk those rumours saying that the film wasn't ready for that yet:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ropped-1097233

----------


## Frontier

I'm actually kind of surprised so much hasn't leaked about _Aquaman_ yet. 

I mean, the most idea we have of what anyone is going to look like, bar Mera, are headshots from Ivan Reis art. 



> Honestly I'm kind of hoping it and Shazam flop. By that point I doubt even Wonder Woman 2 would be able to save this garbage franchise and they might just pull the plug after it.


I'm not the DCEU's biggest fan, but I hope _Aquaman_ and _Shazam_ do well if only because I want to be able to enjoy DC movies and I want those two properties to do well  :Smile: .

----------


## Armor of God

> You do realize that that book has been cancelled because of low sales and that this was the second time Babsgirl being with the BoP has been poorly received, right?


You do realize BOP conceptually is close to its 2nd decade  with almost 200 issues in publication and not so good writers. Yes heaven forbid the franchise loses some steam after running virtually non stop and the second Simone run with legless Babs didn't get glowing reviews either. If anything the New 52 with fully legged Babs was initially hailed.I made it clear, Babs is Babs. The suits wont make ridiculous distinction based on her ability to use legs. Oracle is Babs, Batgirl is Babs, she started as Batgirl,became Oracle then returned to being Batgirl. Same person going through different phases.Common sense really.




> Again, I have no delusions that the films won't have Babsgirl. Just don't think its an absolute, much like I doubt that these films will actually get made. 
> 
> 
> 
>  Scott Lang, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the changing of the Avengers founding line-up,  *Black Panther*; I could go on. (edit: Fair points mentioned above) Although I will mention that Ant-Man perfectly showed how you can have a superhero movie about a legacy hero without their predecessor having ever gotten a movie.


Pretty sure Black Panther was T'Challa not Kasper or Shuri so they did go with the iconic version.
Guardians and Ant-Man were flatout new properties to the general audiences. Batgirl wont be a new property, she is already iconic. An argument that fits the pattern you're trying to develop would be that DC should make Orphan film instead of Batgirl. Clearly you do realize that Batgirl is iconic hence why you want Cass in that role to begin with because the iconic status of Batgirl guarantees a film while Orphan does not.

----------


## ross61

> Eh. I've been somewhat disinterested ever since we first saw Momoa's costume and even less so since we got to see his take on the character in Justice League. The only reasons I plan on seeing the movie at all are because Amber Heard as Mera looks perfect and I like to be able to properly critique things. 
> 
> Honestly I'm kind of hoping it and Shazam flop. By that point I doubt even Wonder Woman 2 would be able to save this garbage franchise and they might just pull the plug after it.


I'm hopping they're good movies because I like good DC movies.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Eh. I've been somewhat disinterested ever since we first saw Momoa's costume and even less so since we got to see his take on the character in Justice League. The only reasons I plan on seeing the movie at all are because Amber Heard as Mera looks perfect and I like to be able to properly critique things. 
> 
> Honestly I'm kind of hoping it and Shazam flop. By that point I doubt even Wonder Woman 2 would be able to save this garbage franchise and they might just pull the plug after it.


Why would you actively hope they flop? If they are good movies that don't deserve to flop.

----------


## Jabare

> No, I am too . 
> 
> I imagine they've been holding back so much from that movie because they don't want to make any kind of mistake or misstep after _Justice League_, so they're being very careful about what they release.


I see, well I hope this works out........will see




> Eh. I've been somewhat disinterested ever since we first saw Momoa's costume and even less so since we got to see his take on the character in Justice League. The only reasons I plan on seeing the movie at all are because Amber Heard as Mera looks perfect and I like to be able to properly critique things. 
> 
> Honestly I'm kind of hoping it and Shazam flop. By that point I doubt even Wonder Woman 2 would be able to save this garbage franchise and they might just pull the plug after it.


I liked Momoa's take even if it was a departure from the traditional character. I want to see more Amber Heard.

I'm not even sure Shazam is in the same universe. I think the DCEU has a big publicity problem that is affecting how people view the cinematic universe, but never say never. I think those two films flopping would be disastrous for DC films going forward. Studios don't like to lose that much money and executives would sooner not invest in another DC film than take another gamble. Seriously if those films flop hard you'd have to hope for Warner Brothers to be bought by Comcast or some ginormous company and that new leadership decides to take another swing at DC superheroes. We'd probably still get Batman because let's face it Batman is the only character DC seems to have confidence in, I mean they didn't waste anytime putting him in MOS 2.




> Not at all. I'm still interested too.
> 
> Some people were expecting a trailer late last month. James Wan had to debunk those rumours saying that the film wasn't ready for that yet:
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ropped-1097233


I see. Guess I will have to be patient

----------


## Vanguard-01

> are we going to get an Aquaman trailer?
> 
> am I the only one still somewhat interested in this film?


Grace Randolph seems to think we'll be getting one very soon. 

And no. Literally EVERYONE is still interested in this movie. Right now? Infinity War is pulling all the attention, seeing as how it's nearly upon us.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I want Shazam and Aquaman to be successful because if they aren't DC is most likely gonna go back to default Batman and Superman material. With the success of the Wonder Woman movie, Diana has been taking center stage in the comics and has become bigger than ever. Hopefully the same happens to Shazam and Aquaman.  I just hope these two are good. If they're failures just cancel this universe.

----------


## Johnny

> An argument that fits the pattern you're trying to develop would be that DC should make Orphan film instead of Batgirl. Clearly you do realize that Batgirl is iconic hence why you want Cass in that role to begin with because the iconic status of Batgirl guarantees a film while Orphan does not.


Good points. In my opinion, more often than not that's what most arguments about diversity in superhero movies tend to boil down to. People insist that so and so isn't "iconic" if that character is white and silver age, yet these people don't just want movies with diverse characters, they want movies where 1)diverse characters assume "iconic" mantles previously carried by white heroes, 2)the movie completely disregards the previous character's existence, or 3)keeps the "iconic" characters in some secondary role. Basically, they want said characters to be given the Ted Kord treatment at worst or the Hank Pym treatment at best.

----------


## JimmySpectre

Steven Spielberg directing DC Comics Movie 'Blackhawk'

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ckhawk-1103534

Spielberg is directing Indiana Jones 5 first and is still developing a remake of West Side Story, so it will take a while before this movie happen.

----------


## El_Gato

> Again, I have no delusions that the films won't have Babsgirl. Just don't think its an absolute, much like I doubt that these films will actually get made. 
> 
> 
> 
>  Scott Lang, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the changing of the Avengers founding line-up,  *Black Panther*; I could go on. (edit: Fair points mentioned above) *Although I will mention that Ant-Man perfectly showed how you can have a superhero movie about a legacy hero without their predecessor having ever gotten a movie.*


And that is the route I see the DCEU taking with someone like Blue Beetle, though he barely qualifies as one lol.

I would love to see Cass on the big screen though, and I'm sure we'll get her eventually

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Steven Spielberg directing DC Comics Movie 'Blackhawk'
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ckhawk-1103534
> 
> Spielberg is directing Indiana Jones 5 first and is still developing a remake of West Side Story, so it will take a while before this movie happen.


Whaaaaaat? 

Am I dreaming? If so then please don't wake me up!  :Smile: 

And that's ONE movie, at least, that we KNOW Warner Bros won't meddle with. NOBODY tells Stephen Spielberg how to make a movie!

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Steven Spielberg directing DC Comics Movie 'Blackhawk'
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ckhawk-1103534
> 
> Spielberg is directing Indiana Jones 5 first and is still developing a remake of West Side Story, so it will take a while before this movie happen.


If anything, I think this is a sign that WB are moving away from the idea of a tightly connected Marvel studios style world once and for all. I don't think there's any way a movie based on such an obscure property directed and produced by Spielberg would take pains to tie in to an already existing Superman or Suicide Squad-movie.

And about Aquaman; we probably won't see a trailer until Infinity War moves out of the spotlight, which will probably be in three weeks to a month.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I wouldn't really expect Spielberg to be the type of director who'd want to play by the constraints of a shared universe.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I wouldn't really expect Spielberg to be the type of director who'd want to play by the constraints of a shared universe.


Probably not. Best case, it's a standalone movie that other directors can reference in future movies.

----------


## Tarantino

> Whaaaaaat? 
> 
> Am I dreaming? If so then please don't wake me up! 
> 
> And that's ONE movie, at least, that we KNOW Warner Bros won't meddle with. NOBODY tells Stephen Spielberg how to make a movie!


You are not dreaming. This is great news for us all.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...with-blackhawk

DC has posted the news on their own website, so I guess Spielberg's Blackhawks is official. 

(I wonder if Lady Blackhawk will be showing up in the BoP film?)

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> You do realize BOP conceptually is close to its 2nd decade  with almost 200 issues in publication and not so good writers. Yes heaven forbid the franchise loses some steam after running virtually non stop and the second Simone run with legless Babs didn't get glowing reviews either. If anything the New 52 with fully legged Babs was initially hailed.I made it clear, Babs is Babs. The suits wont make ridiculous distinction based on her ability to use legs. Oracle is Babs, Batgirl is Babs, she started as Batgirl,became Oracle then returned to being Batgirl. Same person going through different phases.Common sense really.


There's also the fact that the BOP's biggest exposure in outside media to date is a crappy show from the WB. Which Oracle was a part of yes (and was the best part easily)...but so was Helena Wayne as Huntress. A Huntress who didn't wear the costume she was known for and was also a metahuman cat thing.

A BOP movie with Babs as Batgirl and performing Oracle-like tasks (leadership role, hacking) and accompanied a Huntress, Black Canary and maybe even Lady Blackhawk who are in line with their comics counterparts has a shot at being more true to the comics than the TV show was, Batgirl or no. 




> Pretty sure Black Panther was T'Challa not Kasper or Shuri so they did go with the iconic version.
> Guardians and Ant-Man were flatout new properties to the general audiences. Batgirl wont be a new property, she is already iconic. An argument that fits the pattern you're trying to develop would be that DC should make Orphan film instead of Batgirl. Clearly you do realize that Batgirl is iconic hence why you want Cass in that role to begin with because the iconic status of Batgirl guarantees a film while Orphan does not.


Yep, Black Panther was T'Challa, the very first version of the character created *in the Silver Age* (everyone seems to forget he's a Silver Ager) by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee themselves. He's about as iconic as it gets.

For the Guardians, well...Drax, Rocket, Groot and Gamora are one of a kind. There is no mantle to be passed around. There isn't three Rocket's people are clamoring for, unlike the Batgirls. And with the Ant Man comparison, none of the Ant-Man's before the movie had anywhere near the other media screen presence of Batgirl. 




> Steven Spielberg directing DC Comics Movie 'Blackhawk'
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ckhawk-1103534
> 
> Spielberg is directing Indiana Jones 5 first and is still developing a remake of West Side Story, so it will take a while before this movie happen.


This sounds pretty awesome if it ends up happening. 




> I wouldn't really expect Spielberg to be the type of director who'd want to play by the constraints of a shared universe.


Luckily, Spielberg could likely do a mostly stand alone WWII era tale with non-superheroes. At most, Diana might cameo. And he might not be averse to using her to begin with.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> There's also the fact that the BOP's biggest exposure in outside media to date is a crappy show from the WB. Which Oracle was a part of yes (and was the best part easily)...but so was Helena Wayne as Huntress. A Huntress who didn't wear the costume she was known for and was also a metahuman cat thing.


Funny thing is their most popular exposure would be their innuendo song from Batman the Brave and the Bold

----------


## Nite-Wing

[QUOTE=HandofPrometheus;3603655]


> There's also the fact that the BOP's biggest exposure in outside media to date is a crappy show from the WB. Which Oracle was a part of yes (and was the best part easily)...but so was Helena Wayne as Huntress. A Huntress who didn't wear the costume she was known for and was also a metahuman cat thing.
> 
> Funny thing is their most popular exposure would be their innuendo song from Batman the Brave and the Bold


Nobody remembers BBATB
Oh and this isn't the music meister episode

----------


## Robotman

> Funny thing is their most popular exposure would be their innuendo song from Batman the Brave and the Bold


man i loved that show! 

this episode was kinda banned. i guess the innuendo was a bit too much for cartoon network. but it's one of my favorites. plus it was written by Gail Simone!

----------


## Frontier

> I'm not even sure Shazam is in the same universe. I think the DCEU has a big publicity problem that is affecting how people view the cinematic universe, but never say never. I think those two films flopping would be disastrous for DC films going forward. Studios don't like to lose that much money and executives would sooner not invest in another DC film than take another gamble. Seriously if those films flop hard you'd have to hope for Warner Brothers to be bought by Comcast or some ginormous company and that new leadership decides to take another swing at DC superheroes. We'd probably still get Batman because let's face it Batman is the only character DC seems to have confidence in, I mean they didn't waste anytime putting him in MOS 2.


I don't foresee a lot of overt DCEU references in _Shazam_, but I think we might see someone mention Superman. 



> I want Shazam and Aquaman to be successful because if they aren't DC is most likely gonna go back to default Batman and Superman material. With the success of the Wonder Woman movie, Diana has been taking center stage in the comics and has become bigger than ever. Hopefully the same happens to Shazam and Aquaman.  I just hope these two are good. If they're failures just cancel this universe.


Completely agreed. 



> Nobody remembers BBATB
> Oh and this isn't the music meister episode


_Brave and the Bold_ was pretty popular. I mean, just recently they did a team-up movie with Scooby-Doo  :Wink: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;3603673]


> Nobody remembers BBATB
> Oh and this isn't the music meister episode


Probably not but the first thing that pops up on youtube when you search birds of Prey is this. Not to mention it has 4 million views and another 4 million views on a similar video.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> man i loved that show! 
> 
> this episode was kinda banned. i guess the innuendo was a bit too much for cartoon network. but it's one of my favorites. plus it was written by Gail Simone!


It took me too long to appreciate this show. When I was younger I didn't like this version of characters since I didn't know about this period of comics.

Gail Simone is just too good.

----------


## Soubhagya

Some really good news. I wanted Superman. But anyhow. Spielberg on DC is fantastic news.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If anything, I think this is a sign that WB are moving away from the idea of a tightly connected Marvel studios style world once and for all. I don't think there's any way a movie based on such an obscure property directed and produced by Spielberg would take pains to tie in to an already existing Superman or Suicide Squad-movie.


Seeing how it's set in World War 2, it can perfectly be in universe without referencing Superman or Suicide Squad.

Though I wonder if Wonder Woman and her surviving World War I crew may turn up.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Some really good news. I wanted Superman. But anyhow. Spielberg on DC is fantastic news.


Marv Wolfman tweeted that Spielberg wanted to make a Blackhawk film since 1980, which was the reason DC brought back the title at the time.

----------


## Armor of God

> There's also the fact that the BOP's biggest exposure in outside media to date is a crappy show from the WB. Which Oracle was a part of yes (and was the best part easily)...but so was Helena Wayne as Huntress. A Huntress who didn't wear the costume she was known for and was also a metahuman cat thing.
> 
> A BOP movie with Babs as Batgirl and performing Oracle-like tasks (leadership role, hacking) and accompanied a Huntress, Black Canary and maybe even Lady Blackhawk who are in line with their comics counterparts has a shot at being more true to the comics than the TV show was, Batgirl or no. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Black Panther was T'Challa, the very first version of the character created *in the Silver Age* (everyone seems to forget he's a Silver Ager) by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee themselves. He's about as iconic as it gets.
> 
> For the Guardians, well...Drax, Rocket, Groot and Gamora are one of a kind. There is no mantle to be passed around. There isn't three Rocket's people are clamoring for, unlike the Batgirls. And with the Ant Man comparison, none of the Ant-Man's before the movie had anywhere near the other media screen presence of Batgirl.


Justin Kroll of Variety has even stated that WB wants to use BOP to launch Batgirl like Civil War did for Panther. I suspected as such in one of my previous posts where I noted that the BOP writer got the Batgirl gig. So evidently WB is following the Marvel/Panther route.

----------


## Armor of God

> Good points. In my opinion, more often than not that's what most arguments about diversity in superhero movies tend to boil down to. People insist that so and so isn't "iconic" if that character is white and silver age, yet these people don't just want movies with diverse characters, they want movies where 1)diverse characters assume "iconic" mantles previously carried by white heroes, 2)the movie completely disregards the previous character's existence, or 3)keeps the "iconic" characters in some secondary role. Basically, they want said characters to be given the Ted Kord treatment at worst or the Hank Pym treatment at best.


Yeah but in Babs case the argument veers differently. The idea that Oracle and Batgirl are two different people is ridiculous. If someone wants Cass or Steph or Bette or Tiffany then that's their personal choice and there's nothing with it.
But pitting Oracle against Babsgirl is ridiculous. Its like pitting Dick as Robin against Nightwing. Being Batgirl and Oracle is both part of Babs character and history. Mind you my favorite Batgirl is Steph and I would love it if she was Batgirl and I feel DC is being jerks by not acknowledging the tenures of the previous Batgirls but thats a different story.
But for the exec isn't going to neccessarily look at Oracle as another character. From their level its just one character who went through different phases. They might even bring in Oracle and treat it like Knightfall did it for Bruce. There is simply no guanrantee that Oracle will ensure another Batgirl. Not unless WB intend to permanently make her Oracle and even then they'll probably want to squeeze as much as possible out of Babsgirl before moving in that direction.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Marv Wolfman tweeted that Spielberg wanted to make a Blackhawk film since 1980, which was the reason DC brought back the title at the time.


Then its even better news. He wanted to do this. Meaning he has some love for them. Meaning this might be something special.

----------


## Agent Z

> You do realize BOP conceptually is close to its 2nd decade  with almost 200 issues in publication and not so good writers. Yes heaven forbid the franchise loses some steam after running virtually non stop and the second Simone run with legless Babs didn't get glowing reviews either. If anything the New 52 with fully legged Babs was initially hailed.I made it clear, Babs is Babs. The suits wont make ridiculous distinction based on her ability to use legs. Oracle is Babs, Batgirl is Babs, she started as Batgirl,became Oracle then returned to being Batgirl. Same person going through different phases.Common sense really.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure Black Panther was T'Challa not Kasper or Shuri so they did go with the iconic version.
> Guardians and Ant-Man were flatout new properties to the general audiences. Batgirl wont be a new property, she is already iconic. An argument that fits the pattern you're trying to develop would be that DC should make Orphan film instead of Batgirl. Clearly you do realize that Batgirl is iconic hence why you want Cass in that role to begin with because the iconic status of Batgirl guarantees a film while Orphan does not.


If WB cared about what was "iconic" they'd have made a John Stewart Green Lantern movie not a Hal Jordan one.

----------


## Armor of God

> If WB cared about what was "iconic" they'd have made a John Stewart Green Lantern movie not a Hal Jordan one.


I have no idea what that means.

----------


## Agent Z

> I have no idea what that means.


It means that so called iconography is not at the root of what is included or excluded from adaptations so much as what execs think audiences will only accept.




> There's also the fact that the BOP's biggest exposure in outside media to date is a crappy show from the WB. Which Oracle was a part of yes (and was the best part easily)...but so was Helena Wayne as Huntress. A Huntress who didn't wear the costume she was known for and was also a metahuman cat thing.
> 
> A BOP movie with Babs as Batgirl and performing Oracle-like tasks (leadership role, hacking) and accompanied a Huntress, Black Canary and maybe even Lady Blackhawk who are in line with their comics counterparts has a shot at being more true to the comics than the TV show was, Batgirl or no. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Black Panther was T'Challa, the very first version of the character created *in the Silver Age* (everyone seems to forget he's a Silver Ager) by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee themselves. He's about as iconic as it gets.
> 
> For the Guardians, well...Drax, Rocket, Groot and Gamora are one of a kind. There is no mantle to be passed around. There isn't three Rocket's people are clamoring for, unlike the Batgirls. And with the Ant Man comparison, none of the Ant-Man's before the movie had anywhere near the other media screen presence of Batgirl. 
> ...


Harley Quinn was also in the BoP tv series and yet she's apparently going to be in this BoP movie. Batman and Robin also featured a Batgirl named Barbara but that wasn't considered a good enough argument to remove Barbara as Batgirl from related media

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah but in Babs case the argument veers differently. The idea that Oracle and Batgirl are two different people is ridiculous. If someone wants Cass or Steph or Bette or Tiffany then that's their personal choice and there's nothing with it.
> But pitting Oracle against Babsgirl is ridiculous. Its like pitting Dick as Robin against Nightwing. Being Batgirl and Oracle is both part of Babs character and history. Mind you my favorite Batgirl is Steph and I would love it if she was Batgirl and I feel DC is being jerks by not acknowledging the tenures of the previous Batgirls but thats a different story.
> But for the exec isn't going to neccessarily look at Oracle as another character. From their level its just one character who went through different phases. They might even bring in Oracle and treat it like Knightfall did it for Bruce. There is simply no guanrantee that Oracle will ensure another Batgirl. Not unless WB intend to permanently make her Oracle and even then they'll probably want to squeeze as much as possible out of Babsgirl before moving in that direction.


The difference is that Dick's tenure as both Robin and Nightwing is acknowledged in the comics and related media with neither being erased. The only aspect of his history that hasn't been adapted yet is Agent 37 and that's more to it being a recent development. 

Oracle has been a part of Babs' history since 1989 and yet the way the current comics and most related media treat it, only Batgirl has been important. You're right they aren't separate characters but that sure as hell isn't how DC/WB is treating them.

----------


## Armor of God

> It means that so called iconography is not at the root of what is included or excluded from adaptations so much as what execs think audiences will only accept.


Its plays a factor. Otherwise JPV would be Batman and Artemis would have been Wonder Woman.

----------


## Armor of God

> The difference is that Dick's tenure as both Robin and Nightwing is acknowledged in the comics and related media with neither being erased. The only aspect of his history that hasn't been adapted yet is Agent 37 and that's more to it being a recent development. 
> 
> Oracle has been a part of Babs' history since 1989 and yet the way the current comics and most related media treat it, only Batgirl has been important. You're right they aren't separate characters but that sure as hell isn't how DC/WB is treating them.


Because in order to get to Oracle they have to acknowledge TKJ. DC is fine milking it as Joker story but they're conflicted over how much it should define Babs especially in today's politically charged environment.
But Oracle has been used in BOP tv series and Beware the Batman so its not a completely black and white situation.

----------


## Carabas

> Because in order to get to Oracle they have to acknowledge TKJ. DC is fine milking it as Joker story but they're conflicted over how much it should define Babs especially in today's politically charged environment.
> But Oracle has been used in BOP tv series and Beware the Batman so its not a completely black and white situation.


You don't have to acknowledge The Killing Joke at all. 

There's a million ways Barbara could have ended up in a wheelchair, and I don't think being shot by the goddamn Joker is in the top 5 of 'best' ones.

----------


## Agent Z

> Its plays a factor. Otherwise JPV would be Batman and Artemis would have been Wonder Woman.


Cassandra Cain was Batgirl for 75 issues and five years. She was the first Batgirl to have a solo series, was the prominent Asian character in the Batman mythos, _proved_ that a Batgirl series could even sell and has the longest running solo series from either of the Big 2 by a woman of color.

She is not in the same ball park as Artemis or Valley whose tenures in their respective roles was entirely about how they were unfit for those roles. And they weren't even the stars of their books when they took those mantles.

Artemis and Valley aren't in the same ball park as Cass. They're not in the same league, they're not even in the same sport.

----------


## Johnny

> If WB cared about what was "iconic" they'd have made a John Stewart Green Lantern movie not a Hal Jordan one.


You mean Stewart is "iconic" and Jordan is not?

----------


## Agent Z

> You mean Stewart is "iconic" and Jordan is not?


For the general public and numerous actors who want to play Stewart yes.

----------


## Armor of God

> Cassandra Cain was Batgirl for 75 issues and five years. She was the first Batgirl to have a solo series, was the prominent Asian character in the Batman mythos, _proved_ that a Batgirl series could even sell and has the longest running solo series from either of the Big 2 by a woman of color.
> 
> She is not in the same ball park as Artemis or Valley whose tenures in their respective roles was entirely about how they were unfit for those roles. And they weren't even the stars of their books when they took those mantles.
> 
> Artemis and Valley aren't in the same ball park as Cass. They're not in the same league, they're not even in the same sport.


Um, that's cool but what difference does it make to the WB exec? To them she's not the iconic one or the character they'd like for Batgirl to be represented by much like Artemis and JPV. Arguing over issue numbers in this manner is pointless. JPV for instance had 100 issues. Another example would be Dick, he headlined multiple Batman books for 2 years as Batman and he was never treated as an unfit. But Dick isn't Batman, Bruce is.

You're dimissing Valley far too easily, he still took on the mantle and had it for quite a while. He starred in multiple Batbooks, was part of one the most famous sagas in Batman history and got a solo that ran 100 issues and a bunch of annuals. He's a legit case of taking an unknown character or D lister and propelling them to success. But like WB dont want Batman to be represented by a character like Azrael they dont want Batgirl to be represented by Cass. Its going in to different archetypes.

----------


## Armor of God

> You don't have to acknowledge The Killing Joke at all. 
> 
> There's a million ways Barbara could have ended up in a wheelchair, and I don't think being shot by the goddamn Joker is in the top 5 of 'best' ones.


Yeah its not that simple. There are a million different ways Cass could end up in a wheelchair and become Oracle as well. 
Its like taking away the deaths of Batman's parents at the hands of a mugger and having them die in a suicide bombing.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> For the general public and numerous actors who want to play Stewart yes.


That's a myth that's constantly kept alive by John Stewart fans. John was undoubtedly well represented in the Justice League cartoons earlier in the millennium. He's no more 'iconic' than Hal Jordan though.

For the 'general public' read 'fans of a certain cartoon series that place way too much emphasis on it'.

Of course actors are publicly linking themselves with portraying John Stewart. They are always on the lookout for a good gig. Whether that's John, Hal or whoever.

----------


## Agent Z

> Um, that's cool but what difference does it make to the WB exec? To them she's not the iconic one or the character they'd like for Batgirl to be represented by much like Artemis and JPV. Arguing over issue numbers in this manner is pointless. JPV for instance had 100 issues. Another example would be Dick, he headlined multiple Batman books for 2 years as Batman and he was never treated as an unfit. But Dick isn't Batman, Bruce is.
> 
> You're dimissing Valley far too easily, he still took on the mantle and had it for quite a while. He starred in multiple Batbooks, was part of one the most famous sagas in Batman history and got a solo that ran 100 issues and a bunch of annuals. He's a legit case of taking an unknown character or D lister and propelling them to success. But like WB dont want Batman to be represented by a character like Azrael they dont want Batgirl to be represented by Cass. Its going in to different archetypes.


WB execs  in case youve missed it over the years  tend to not always make the best decisions just what they think audiences will accept. And Valley did not have 100 issues as Batman.
Weve seen WB present Batman as different archetypes with Batman Beyond. It isnt about who is iconic in what role, its who they like in that role.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah its not that simple. There are a million different ways Cass could end up in a wheelchair and become Oracle as well. 
> Its like taking away the deaths of Batman's parents at the hands of a mugger and having them die in a suicide bombing.


Somehow, I doubt people are going to have an issue if Babs was crippled by, say, taking a bullet for an innocent bystander as opposed to being shot at random by the Joker to psychologically mess with her father.

Cass being Oracle has nothing to do with this conversation so I don't even know why the hell you brought it up.

----------


## Armor of God

> WB execs – in case you’ve missed it over the years – tend to not always make the best decisions just what they think audiences will accept. And Valley did not have 100 issues as Batman.
> We’ve seen WB present Batman as different archetypes with Batman Beyond. It isn’t about who is iconic in what role, it’s who they like in that role.


That's a different story altogether though. They could make a sucky film with Babs, that's true but the same applies to Cass or even Batman himself.
Batman Beyond is not competing with Batman for a movie. It was a tv show back in its day and today its a comic that does its own thing.
If they decide to ditch Batman and refocus their efforts on Batman Beyond then I'd fully agree with you but that hasn't happened.

----------


## Johnny

> For the general public and numerous actors who want to play Stewart yes.


Iconography and popularity level isn't the same thing. Jay Garrick is an "iconic" character and he's clearly not as well-known as Barry and Wally. Though I would disagree with that point as well considering that Hal has had so much more outside media exposure than John has had. The "general public" is not limited to people who saw a cartoon from two decades ago.

----------


## Armor of God

> Somehow, I doubt people are going to have an issue if Babs was crippled by, say, taking a bullet for an innocent bystander as opposed to being shot at random by the Joker to psychologically mess with her father.
> 
> Cass being Oracle has nothing to do with this conversation so I don't even know why the hell you brought it up.


And that's not how Oracle was born. It maybe more politically correct emphasis on maybe but its not the story of Oracle. This is like casually dismissing Batman's parents being shot and replacing it with poisoning.

I brought it up because its as random as Babs becoming Oracle after falling down a flight of stairs or something.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's a myth that's constantly kept alive by John Stewart fans. John was undoubtedly well represented in the Justice League cartoons earlier in the millennium. He's no more 'iconic' than Hal Jordan though.
> 
> For the 'general public' read 'fans of a certain cartoon series that place way too much emphasis on it'.
> 
> Of course actors are publicly linking themselves with portraying John Stewart. They are always on the lookout for a good gig. Whether that's John, Hal or whoever.


And where the actors publicly asking to play Hal Jordan?

Between the two of them who was the one people were asking to be the star of a movie and who is the one associated with one of WB's biggest superhero bombs?

----------


## Armor of God

Didn't Fillon ask for it? Besides Black heroes are still rare so a Black actor is going to look for a suitable role and find that their options are limited.

A White Man would rather ask for Superman or Batman. Imo this isn't really a test of anything other than underrepresentation.

----------


## Agent Z

> And that's not how Oracle was born. It maybe more politically correct emphasis on maybe but its not the story of Oracle. This is like casually dismissing Batman's parents being shot and replacing it with poisoning.
> 
> I brought it up because its as random as Babs becoming Oracle after falling down a flight of stairs or something.


The story of Oracle is Barbara Gordon, former Batgirl, reinventing herself and fighting crime in a different manner after losing use of her legs. The core of the story can remain the same while the details change. It isn't like the origins of DC characters hasn't been altered before as seen with WW on the screen. 

Or hell, remember how Nolan turned the deaths of the Waynes into something the LoS caused as opposed to a random act of violence?

----------


## Johnny

> And where the actors publicly asking to play Hal Jordan?
> 
> Between the two of them who was the one people were asking to be the star of a movie and who is the one associated with one of WB's biggest superhero bombs?


Why would anyone ask to play him after the 2011 movie, did anyone ask to play Bane after Batman & Robin? Yet, we saw what Tom Hardy did with the role in 2012. Green Lantern is not just Hal Jordan and the actors you're talking about are aware that there's another popular Green Lantern, as well as wanting to jump on the diversity bandwaggon, that's why they "publicly ask" to play him. That doesn't make him more "iconic" just because there's public awareness of the character. I've seen some actresses "campaign" for Jessica Cruz as well, is she supposed to be more "iconic" than Hal too.

----------


## Armor of God

> The story of Oracle is Barbara Gordon, former Batgirl, reinventing herself and fighting crime in a different manner after losing use of her legs. The core of the story can remain the same while the details change. It isn't like the origins of DC characters hasn't been altered before as seen with WW on the screen. 
> 
> Or hell, remember how Nolan turned the deaths of the Waynes into something the LoS caused as opposed to a random act of violence?


The story of Oracle can just as easily be Cassandra Cain, former Batgirl, reinventing herself and fighting crime in a different manner after losing the use of her legs. Why must it be Babs? Because its "iconic" right. Truth is that even when you're arguing against iconography you're still making decisions based on it without even realizing it. Babs is the iconic Batgirl and she is the iconic Oracle. If its all worthless then Cass is free to be the next Oracle instead of Batgirl.

I have no idea what film you were watching but that's absolutely not what happened. The Wayne's were still killed by an act of random crime via gun shots. The League didn't show up and impale them with their swords. All Ra's implied was that poverty and social imbalance can be artificially generated which in turn leads to crime. There was no grand conspiracy.

----------


## Robanker

> For the general public and numerous actors who want to play Stewart yes.


For a time during/after JLU, sure, but considering how much success GL has seen under Johns' pen, the movie and animated adaptions, and his presence in video games and general merchandise... I'd say Hal is equally iconic in the public eye, if not moreso  than John.

Outside that one cartoon, John really hasn't done a whole lot. He's been in a select number of video games, but it's foolish to think he's the most iconic GL by a mile. That said, he's the only one in the running against Hal in that respect. Nobody really knows about Kyle, Guy, Alan or the new kids.

----------


## Agent Z

> The story of Oracle can just as easily be Cassandra Cain, former Batgirl, reinventing herself and fighting crime in a different manner after losing the use of her legs. Why must it be Babs? Because its "iconic" right. Truth is that even when you're arguing against iconography you're still making decisions based on it without even realizing it. Babs is the iconic Batgirl and she is the iconic Oracle. If its all worthless then Cass is free to be the next Oracle instead of Batgirl.


Last I checked, Cass isnt a computer genius or that much of a detective which is why Babs worked as Oracle. Just being a cripple isnt enough of a qualification to being Oracle (this isnt the Arrow writing room). And whos calling Oracle worthless?

Or do you just see characters as interchangeable?




> I have no idea what film you were watching but that's absolutely not what happened. The Wayne's were still killed by an act of random crime via gun shots. The League didn't show up and impale them with their swords. All Ra's implied was that poverty and social imbalance can be artificially generated which in turn leads to crime. There was no grand conspiracy.


Ras didnt imply it. He flat out admitted it.

*Ra's al Ghul:* _Tomorrow the world will watch in horror as its greatest city destroys itself. The movement back to harmony will be unstoppable this time._

*Bruce Wayne:* _You attacked Gotham before?_

*Ra's al Ghul:* _Of course. Over the ages, our weapons have grown more sophisticated. With Gotham, we tried a new one: Economics. But we underestimated certain of Gotham's citizens... such as your parents. Gunned down by one of the very people they were trying to help. Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal. Their deaths galvanized the city into saving itself... and Gotham has limped on ever since. We are back to finish the job. And this time no misguided idealists will get in the way. Like your father, you lack the courage to do all that is necessary. If someone stands in the way of true justice... you simply walk up behind them and stab them in the heart._

----------


## Armor of God

> Last I checked, Cass isn’t a computer genius or that much of a detective which is why Babs worked as Oracle. Just being a cripple isn’t enough of a qualification to being Oracle (this isn’t the Arrow writing room). And who’s calling Oracle worthless?
> 
> Or do you just see characters as interchangeable?
> 
> 
> Ra’s didn’t imply it. He flat out admitted it.
> 
> *Ra's al Ghul:* _Tomorrow the world will watch in horror as its greatest city destroys itself. The movement back to harmony will be unstoppable this time._
> 
> ...


Babs had to develop those skills by virtue of her circumstances. Babs wasn't a computer genius before her crippling. If they want then they can make Cass one too. If not a hacker then some other skill set which can be useful in a wheel chair.

And where exactly did the Wayne's die as part of a conspiracy? Where did Ra's say that he impaled them? They died as a result of a random crime, Nolan kept that intact.
So I literally have no clue what you're reaching for here.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah its not that simple. There are a million different ways Cass could end up in a wheelchair and become Oracle as well. 
> Its like taking away the deaths of Batman's parents at the hands of a mugger and having them die in a suicide bombing.


Not if you want her to be Cass in any way at all except just the name.

And the Oracle story is not about overcoming specifically the damn Joker, it's much more universal. The Oracle story doesn't deal with The Killing Joke. It deals with what happens after.
The more the Joker gets emphasised the more it becomes about the Joker instead of about Barbara.

----------


## Armor of God

> Not if you want her to be Cass in any way at all except just the name.
> 
> And the Oracle story is not about overcoming specifically the damn Joker, it's much more universal. The Oracle story doesn't deal with The Killing Joke. It deals with what happens after.
> The more the Joker gets emphasised the more it becomes about the Joker instead of about Barbara.


And I'm sure some people at DC thought the same when Ostrander and Yale suggested Oracle.

Well then if its a universal story then I nominate Cass to be the universal representative.
A minority character with a disability can have a very universal message.

----------


## Carabas

> And I'm sure some people at DC thought the same when Ostrander and Yale suggested Oracle.
> 
> Well then if its a universal story then I nominate Cass to be the universal representative.
> A minority character with a disability can have a very universal message.


Sense you are making not.

Cass already has her own disabilities.

----------


## Agent Z

> Babs had to develop those skills by virtue of her circumstances. Babs wasn't a computer genius before her crippling. If they want then they can make Cass one too. If not a hacker then some other skill set which can be useful in a wheel chair.


Again, youre basically just saying characters are interchangeable here. Oracle is not just a person in a wheelchair. This is the type of idiocy the Arrow writers tried with Felicity.




> And where exactly did the Wayne's die as part of a conspiracy? Where did Ra's say that he impaled them? They died as a result of a random crime, Nolan kept that intact.
> So I literally have no clue what you're reaching for here.


If it is a result of the Leagues manipulations, calling it a random act of violence is questionable. My point is, the writers can change the circumstances of Barbaras paralysis while keeping the core of Oracle.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

I can think we all agree nobody here (whether they agree to it publicly or not  :Wink: ) wants their favorite Batgirl to become Oracle, because it's considered a downgrade.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Funny thing is their most popular exposure would be their innuendo song from Batman the Brave and the Bold


True, but a guest star role is different than a show with their name in the title. 

Also Babs is not in that episode, but Selina is.

----------


## Assam

> I can think we all agree nobody here (whether they agree to it publicly or not ) wants their favorite Batgirl to become Oracle, because it's considered a downgrade.


No? I don't want my favorite Batgirl to be Oracle because 'Oracle' is specifically suited to Babs' character, it isn't something interchangeable with any Batgirl and Oracle was more a promotion than Nightwing will ever be.

(I feel like we've had similar exchanges to this multiple times now)

----------


## Gaastra

So we talk about steven making a dc movie then right after he announces he is making a dc movie.  What are the odds of that?  Creepy.  Blackhawk is a great fit for him.  WW2, planes and they collect and store magic items at times. WW2, planes and fantasy in one movie.

Or he could make it like the old version.





As for gothem city sirens-ss2-harley solo-joker and Harley movie-whatever is now birds of prey, i'm fine with that but this announcing movies then changing their minds makes WB look like a bunch of 5 year olds.  "We are making this movie, no wait this one is cooler, no lets go back to the last one, no wait we will do this one!"  Don't announce the blasted movie unless you know your going to make the blasted movie!  It's getting to be a joke at this point.

----------


## Armor of God

Yeah I have no stake in this overblown argument since my favorite Batgirl has no shot either mostly because of Babs so I'm bowing out of it. But I think its clear that Babs will be Batgirl in BOP to launch her eventual solo Batgirl film. They have both a screenplay and a director now as well as their lead. Now its just a question of getting free actors for different roles.

----------


## Armor of God

> I can think we all agree nobody here (whether they agree to it publicly or not ) wants their favorite Batgirl to become Oracle, because it's considered a downgrade.


Quoted For Truth.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> If WB cared about what was "iconic" they'd have made a John Stewart Green Lantern movie not a Hal Jordan one.


Starring in one cartoon does not make John more iconic than Hal, especially when said cartoon has been off the air for over a decade. Hal also starred in a well received cartoon that is more recent and didn't get canceled due to poor ratings, but toy sales (and by that logic, pre-renewal YJ cast should be judged as not being iconic for the same reason). And been in DTVs




> For the general public and numerous actors who want to play Stewart yes.


The general public freaked out when Ryan Reynolds was cast because they thought there was only one Green Lantern and they changed his race from black to white. They didn't know enough about the lore to know that there is more than one Earth Green Lantern, and the one they were thinking of wasn't named Hal Jordan (and his name was said in the trailers). His John iconic enough for people to know anything more about him than his race?




> And where the actors publicly asking to play Hal Jordan?
> 
> Between the two of them who was the one people were asking to be the star of a movie and who is the one associated with one of WB's biggest superhero bombs?


There was that one dude who trolled audiences by saying he had scenes in the director's cut of BvS playing Hal and posted pictures of himself in a bomber jacket. Armie Hammer also played along with the fan casting rumors.

Fans of both are asking for them to be in the movie, along with every other Lantern. And Hal is not the only superhero associates with WB's biggest superhero bombs. Clark and Bruce have been associated with them as well, along with Dick, Barbara, Vic, Barry and Diana. The GL movie would not have magically been better if John was in it instead of Hal, and since he has the exact same powers and similar costume, a movie poster with John on it with "GREEN LANTERN" on it will still cause association with the Ryan Reynolds movie.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> No? I don't want my favorite Batgirl to be Oracle because 'Oracle' is specifically suited to Babs' character, it isn't something interchangeable with any Batgirl and Oracle was more a promotion than Nightwing will ever be.
> 
> (I feel like we've had similar exchanges to this multiple times now)


Yes and I still stand by it. *Nobody* would have thought of Barbara as Oracle before she became disabled, but a little writing changed that. The same thing could happen to any other character, too. It doesn't have to meet continuity standards, either, as was the case with Babs.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah I have no stake in this overblown argument since my favorite Batgirl has no shot either mostly because of Babs so I'm bowing out of it. But I think its clear that Babs will be Batgirl in BOP to launch her eventual solo Batgirl film. They have both a screenplay and a director now as well as their lead. Now its just a question of getting free actors for different roles.


I personally do not care, either. In fact, WB could replace Bruce Wayne, my favorite character, in the next movie with another one and I would probably still see it (though I would scratch my head why they would do something that stupid, of course  :Confused: ). Maybe that says something negative about me as a fan, but I have never been that invested in a character at the expense of another.

----------


## Troian

I guess DC/WBs will just keep on announcing and hyping projects that will will either take way too long to make or may never see the light of day.

Just the past month we've heard at least three different movies (something Harley Quinn related, New Gods and now Blackhawk) with potential directors attached and I willing to bet these three movies will either take a long ass time before they even start anything or they'll just be a floating idea.

----------


## WillieMorgan

> And where the actors publicly asking to play Hal Jordan?
> 
> Between the two of them who was the one people were asking to be the star of a movie and who is the one associated with one of WB's biggest superhero bombs?


Why would anyone need to try and publicly shill themselves to play Hal Jordan the way that Tyrese Gibson was doing for John Stewart? That was hardly a ringing endorsement by the way. I hope that when John Stewart does get cast that it will be an actor with more gravitas getting the role, let's put it that way. You think that when a vacancy for Hal Jordan becomes available that there'll be no takers? Hardly.

You are clinging to another fallacy there also. The 2011 GL movie bombed because it was poor. Not because of any failings with the Hal Jordan character.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You are clinging to another fallacy there also. The 2011 GL movie bombed because it was poor. Not because of any failings with the Hal Jordan character.


If the movie is good, any GL will do.

If the movie is good, any Flash will do.

If the movie is good, any Batgirl will do.

If the movie is good, any Blue Beetle  will do.

And so on...

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I can think we all agree nobody here (whether they agree to it publicly or not ) wants their favorite Batgirl to become Oracle, because it's considered a downgrade.


I actually think Babs going back to being just Batgirl after carving out such an important niche for herself in the DCU as Oracle was the downgrade...

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I actually think Babs going back to being just Batgirl after carving out such an important niche for herself in the DCU as Oracle was the downgrade...


But I'm assuming (maybe I'm wrong) that you prefer another Batgirl instead of Barbara, so I wasn't talking about you, anyway. Besides, if she were still Oracle, would anybody at WB be talking about a solo film for her?  :Wink:

----------


## Carabas

> But I'm assuming (maybe I'm wrong) that you prefer another Batgirl instead of Barbara, so I wasn't talking about you, anyway. Besides, if she were still Oracle, would anybody at WB be talking about a solo film for her?


I always loved Babs as Batgirl, but she became exponentially more powerful as Oracle.

Her Batgirl was a second rate rooftop vigilante, Oracle was in the JLA and ran her own global  operations. And could still personally put street level opponents in the hospital when push came to shove.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I always loved Babs as Batgirl, but she became exponentially more powerful as Oracle.
> 
> Her Batgirl was a second rate rooftop vigilante, Oracle was in the JLA and ran her own global  operations. And could still personally put street level opponents in the hospital when push came to shove.


But who sells more comics or (potentionally) movies: Oracle or Batgirl? I'm putting my money on the latter.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> For a time during/after JLU, sure, but considering how much success GL has seen under Johns' pen, the movie and animated adaptions, and his presence in video games and general merchandise... *I'd say Hal is equally iconic in the public eye, if not moreso  than John.*
> 
> *Outside that one cartoon, John really hasn't done a whole lot. He's been in a select number of video games,* but it's foolish to think he's the most iconic GL by a mile. That said, he's the only one in the running against Hal in that respect. Nobody really knows about Kyle, Guy, Alan or the new kids.


I say that really says a WHOLE lot, though. Hal Jordan has been pushed in media and merchandise for years when Geoff Johns took over, who made the franchise quite popular in the comics. While Hal Jordan has been in DTVs, video games, advertisements, the main guy in GL comics, a TV show, and a movie, John Stewart has been MIA in mediums, except for Young Justice at the time. Hal Jordan was being pushed for YEARS, while John was MIA. Despite all of that, John Stewart is still the biggest competitor to Hal Jordan in being considered the most _iconic_ GL. Even if one is more iconic than the other, it's pretty close. And I say that's really damn impressive, considering a show that ended over a decade ago.

There's a reason why John is co-leading alongside Hal Jordan in the GLC film.

----------


## Carabas

> But who sells more comics or (potentionally) movies: Oracle or Batgirl? I'm putting my money on the latter.


I don't care one little tiny bit about that.

And if you start thinking of it like that, then what sells more comics or (potentionally) movies? Batgirl or another Batman project?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't care one little tiny bit about that.
> 
> And if you start thinking of it like that, then what sells more comics or (potentionally) movies? Batgirl or another Batman project?


I don't think we're talking about the same thing now, Carabas. My earlier point was being a superhero is considered more prestigious than being a master hacker. Maybe that's wrong, but I believe that is the prevailing opinion.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Justin Kroll of Variety has even stated that WB wants to use BOP to launch Batgirl like Civil War did for Panther. I suspected as such in one of my previous posts where I noted that the BOP writer got the Batgirl gig. So evidently WB is following the Marvel/Panther route.


No, WB is following the DC/Wonder Woman route.
Justin Kroll must have forgotten that WB applied that tactic first.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> No, WB is following the DC/Wonder Woman route.
> Justin Kroll must have forgotten that WB applied that tactic first.


Heh. WB/DC can't get credit for anything.  :Smile:

----------


## Carabas

> I don't think we're talking about the same thing now, Carabas. My earlier point was being a superhero is considered more prestigious than being a master hacker. Maybe that's wrong, but I believe that is the prevailing opinion.


Maybe. But Oracle was a superhero. Fancy codename and secret identity and all. She kicked Brainiac's ass.

When Grant Morrison puts you in his Justice League, you're about as superhero as it gets.

----------


## Punisher007

> Babs had to develop those skills by virtue of her circumstances. Babs wasn't a computer genius before her crippling. If they want then they can make Cass one too. If not a hacker then some other skill set which can be useful in a wheel chair.
> 
> And where exactly did the Wayne's die as part of a conspiracy? *Where did Ra's say that he impaled them? They died as a result of a random crime,* Nolan kept that intact.
> So I literally have no clue what you're reaching for here.


It's more that Ra's set the stage for their deaths.  He and the LOS tanked Gotham's economy to further their goals.  This in turn made people like Joe Chill so desperate that they felt like they had to resort to crime just to survive, and of course the Wayne's died as a consequence.  Without Ra's doing what he did, that attempted robbery probably wouldn't have happened and Bruce's parents wouldn't have died.

----------


## TomServofan

> John Campea is a sexist idiot. He has no valid points regarding film whatsoever.
> 
> As for the arguments, I'm on Elmo's side. The MCU's formulaic approach destroys movies as an art. Their films are not going to be remembered as an art whatsoever.


MCU is unashamed

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Changed his race from black to white. *They didn't know enough about the lore to know that there is more than one Earth Green Lantern*, and the one they were thinking of wasn't named Hal Jordan (and his name was said in the trailers).


Who is to BLAME for that? DC.




> His John iconic enough for people to know anything more about him than his race?


Who is to blame for that? DC for the failure to build any other black characters and yes that include the mess known as Cyborg.

From 1986-2000-how black characters even bothered to appear in DC stuff? Outside of comics? Let alone POC. So if I am sitting at home and the only POC I see on cartoons between the big two are Falcon, Blade, Panther, Prowler, Rocket Racer & Storm from Marvel. Then I get one from DC-of course folks will flock to him.

You have Lebron's (who was born in 86) and up generation finally seeing a black male superhero as a colead in cartoons from DC. That spoke volumes to many folks along with some guy named Virgil.
A guy who was one of the few blacks to have merchandise that one did not have to HUNT for. It's why you saw Finn from Star Wars toys sell out in 13 hours, New Day ranks 4th in WWE sales, Black Panther toys sell out, Donald Glover's Lando figure is HTF.

It's DC's FAULT for not building up on it. And if John was in that film and it TANKED-JOHN STEWART would be blamed and BURIED even worst than he has.





> If the movie is good, any GL will do.


If you want a crappy box office. There are folks who will NOT support that film being Hal or John only. One of them will get you a bigger backlash thanks to some guy in a catsuit fighting Johnny Storm.

Because someone will have to explain where is John. Even if you use both-it will be picked apart to see how John is done.

And I am sure Marvel will gladly counter a Hal movie with Miles Morales or Black Panther 2 or worst case Falcon as Captain America or worst worst case X-Men. Just to troll.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If you want a crappy box office. There are folks who will NOT support that film being Hal or John only.


You're making a different argument, though. That has nothing to do regarding any specific character's failings, but whether or not the GL fan base is fractured to the point it would affect the box office of even a well-received film (I doubt it, but none of us can prove it either way).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Who is to BLAME for that? DC.
> 
> 
> 
> Who is to blame for that? DC for the failure to build any other black characters and yes that include the mess known as Cyborg.


I blame their lack of viewing comprehension. It's not as if John's name was a big secret in the show. He was not once called Hal Jordan. Hell, Kyle was in the show too, so it's not like there was one Earth Lantern there, not even factoring in the intergalactic members. 

YJ, they are both there and Guy cameos. John even got more speaking lines than Hal. The GL cartoon starred Hal, but featured Guy. If people care enough to learn more about they GL mythos, they will do it. Nobody who complained about the "race change" that didn't exist didn't give enough of a shit to do research. 





> It's DC's FAULT for not building up on it. And if John was in that film and it TANKED-JOHN STEWART would be blamed and BURIED even worst than he has.


And it would be just as dumb to do that as it is to blame Hal for the movie sucking, which plenty of John Stewart (and other Lanterns) fans are all too happy to do. 





> If you want a crappy box office. There are folks who will NOT support that film being Hal or John only. One of them will get you a bigger backlash thanks to some guy in a catsuit fighting Johnny Storm.
> 
> Because someone will have to explain where is John. Even if you use both-it will be picked apart to see how John is done.
> 
> And I am sure Marvel will gladly counter a Hal movie with Miles Morales or Black Panther 2 or worst case Falcon as Captain America or worst worst case X-Men. Just to troll.


Only comic book fans would boycott over the film only having one or the other. The casual audiences who make up the vast majority of ticket sales are not nearly as fickle. They will see a movie with Hal or John or both if it's good, will avoid it like the plague if it is not.

You're giving Marvel too much credit. They only considered doing a film with a female superhero when Wonder Woman was announced, and it doesn't seem like any other Spider-Man except Peter Parker was considered. They may very well do Falcon as Cap, but notice that they still (naturally) lead with Steve, and they could also do Bucky.

----------


## Johnny

> It's DC's FAULT for not building up on it. And if John was in that film and it TANKED-JOHN STEWART would be blamed and BURIED even worst than he has.


No, he wouldn't be. Unlike some fans, DC wasn't dumb enough to blame the failure of the movie on Hal being the main character and they wouldn't be dumb enough to blame it on John had the movie been about him as well. If the new movie fails too, should they proceed to bury them both then?




> If you want a crappy box office. There are folks who will NOT support that film being Hal or John only. One of them will get you a bigger backlash thanks to some guy in a catsuit fighting Johnny Storm.
> 
> Because someone will have to explain where is John. Even if you use both-it will be picked apart to see how John is done.
> 
> And I am sure Marvel will gladly counter a Hal movie with Miles Morales or Black Panther 2 or worst case Falcon as Captain America or worst worst case X-Men. Just to troll.


You overestimate the public's attention span. Stop looking at what the reactionary outrage brigade does on social media, the only thing the actual moviegoing audience wants is to be entertained. Give them an entertaining GL film and they will go see it. You won't have to "explain" a damn thing to them.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> No, he wouldn't be. Unlike some fans, DC wasn't dumb enough to blame the failure of the movie on Hal being the main character and they wouldn't have been dumb enough to blame it on John had the movie been about him as well. If the new movie fails too, should they proceed to bury them both then?


DC may not be blaming the failure of the movie on Hal being the main character, but from what it looks like, WB probably is. Since Hal's character was associated with the flop of the movie (which isn't due to the character itself, but rather the quality of the film), it seems like it negates every good performance he's ever had. The producers had to convince WB to have Hal be in the Lego Batman movie and WB didn't have plans for a GL in a JL movie. If the 2011 Green Lantern movie had been a success, I assume John Stewart wouldn't be considered of being a co-lead alongside Hal Jordan in the sequel film. That's even assuming he would appear at all. I think he would be a supporting character. Now that there's a reboot for the GL film, apparently John is a co-lead. WB doesn't seem to have much confidence in Hal Jordan being the solo protagonist, so they have put another famous GL as the co-lead.

----------


## Johnny

> DC may not be blaming the failure of the movie on Hal being the main character, but from what it looks like, WB probably is. Since Hal's character was associated with the flop of the movie (which isn't due to the character itself, but rather the quality of the film), it seems like it negates every good performance he's ever had. The producers had to convince WB to have Hal be in the Lego Batman movie and WB didn't have plans for a GL in a JL movie. If the 2011 Green Lantern movie had been a success, I assume John Stewart wouldn't be considered of being a co-lead alongside Hal Jordan in the sequel film. That's even assuming he would appear at all. I think he would be a supporting character. Now that there's a reboot for the GL film, apparently John is a co-lead. WB doesn't seem to have much confidence in Hal Jordan being the solo protagonist, so they have put another famous GL as the co-lead.


I'm pretty sure John Stewart was going to appear in the sequel, he was planned to make a cameo in the first movie that was eventually scrapped. They had started shooting that movie without a finished script after all, so it's not like they knew what they were doing anyway, but it seems like Hal wasn't planned to be the only live-action Green Lantern even before the DCEU started, he was just going to be the first. And I would disagree, I think if WB had no faith in Hal, they wouldn't just be worried about him being a solo protagonist, but he simply wouldn't be there at all. If they thought that being featured in one bad movie defined the character's entire legacy, he just won't be part of the DCEU. We wouldn't see him prominently featured in the DCEU intro or hear anything about his involvement in any movie. By that same token, the decision to do a "buddy cop" flick was done years before Geoff Johns came on board, so it's not like Hal is only there because Johns wants him to be there.

And if true, I'm not surprised about The Lego Movie, it came out less than 3 years after GL, only makes sense WB would be hesitant to have the character in the movie that soon after the fact. Ironically, Jonah Hill's goofy version of Hal proved popular so he made a cameo in The Lego Batman Movie and will be back for the Lego Movie sequel. I've also heard he has a cameo in Ready Player One too, but I've seen that movie twice now and I've yet to spot him there. In any event, apparently WB doesn't seem that ashamed of him anymore at this point in time.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> I'm pretty sure John Stewart was going to appear in the sequel, he was planned to make a cameo in the first movie that was eventually scrapped. They had started shooting that movie without a finished script after all, so it's not like they knew what they were doing anyway, but it seems like Hal wasn't planned be the only live-action Green Lantern even before the DCEU started, he was just going to be the first.


Yea, I acknowledged John was going to make an appearance in the sequel film, but that doesn't mean he was going to be the co-lead, though.




> And I would disagree, if WB had no faith in Hal, then he wouldn't be there. If they thought that being featured in one bad movie defined the character's entire legacy, he just won't be part of the DCEU. We wouldn't see him prominently featured in the DCEU intro or hear anything about his involvement in any movie at all. On that same token, the decision to do a "buddy cop" flick was done years before Geoff Johns came on board, so it's not like Hal is only there because Johns wants him to be there.


Keep in mind I didn't say they had absolutely _no faith_.

But Johnny, you did say this over a year ago, regarding the details of the GLC movie:




> Ironically it doesn't seem like it's John's image that needs improving, it's Hal's. Those who remember John from the cartoon and/or don't read comics tend to speak very fondly of him. Hal is the one who was in one shitty movie and that apparently negates every good performance he's ever had. He is the one who needs redemption here. Of course I'm sure DC would start promoting John more prominently as the movie get closer.


Maybe I'm misinterpreting here? You did say and admitted that being in one bad movie negated his good performances, though. It's almost no different than what I just posted, unless your views towards skyvolt's reply back then had reversed since then of course. There was a reason on why you stated Hal Jordan needs redemption here. Because he associated in a bad movie. WB being hesitant to put the character in the Lego Batman movie, your frustration on WB blurring out Hal in the BvS special features, no GL in the JL movie and so on, doesn't scream much confidence in the character as much as the other characters ,who already appeared in the DCEU, despite his legacy and successes in other mediums. Does having an DC intro have any affect of the performance in a DCEU movie? You know, I didn't say anything about Geoff Johns.

And when I quoted your old quote, I'm begging you to please don't get offended by that. I tend to remember your other posts, because you're one of my favorite posters here on this site  :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

> DCEU is only if your ashamed of comics unlike MCU which they are unashamed of the source


Oh please. Both franchises are selective of what they will and will not put on the screen like Hawkeye's costume or Falcon's ability to talk to birds. This nonsense about being "ashamed" is just comic fans making a stink 
because the movie doesn't have Superman wearing his underwear on the outside. We've had Atlantis, Themyscira and the Green Lanterns waging war against the New Gods, Wonder Woman fighting in World War 1 and are about to get Shazam but yet DCEU is totally ashamed of the source material.

----------


## Confuzzled

Why do so many diehard MCU fans spend more time and energy in DCEU and X-Men Movie related discussions and threads than in their beloved MCU threads and discussions?

----------


## Naked Bat

> Why do so many diehard MCU fans spend more time and energy in DCEU and X-Men Movie related discussions and threads than in their beloved MCU threads and discussions?


Also, why those people can only appreciate the MCU and accept tht not everything has to be exactly the same?

----------


## Johnny

> Yea, I acknowledged John was going to make an appearance in the sequel film, but that doesn't mean he was going to be the co-lead, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind I didn't say they had absolutely _no faith_.
> 
> But Johnny, you did say this over a year ago, regarding the details of the GLC movie:
> 
> 
> ...


No offense taken at all, I do remember saying that and I think I changed my perspective a bit on that topic over time. To be fair, most of my comments pretty much reflect my daily mood, sometimes I get frustrated and start ranting about WB's treatment of the GL property, not to mention how insufferable I can get about it at times in the Hal thread, just ask poor Anthony. lol But looking at the situation in perspective, I realize they needed time to disassociate themselves and the DC brand from that movie, so it made sense they excluded Hal and the GL property from the entire first DCEU phase and shied away from it for a while. I expect better things for Hal, John and the GL brand in the perhaps not so distant future. But if that one fails too, we're done for. GL would become even more toxic than the FF.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Couple of BIRDS OF PREY tidbits I've learned since the Cathy has come on as director. There are two versions of script, only constant is Harley and Barbara Gordon in both. remaining characters different in both scripts."_

_"Also hearing slight possibility of SQUAD shooting almost immediately after the BIRDS OF PREY shoot."_

https://twitter.com/krolljvar/status/986765882666860545

----------


## Armor of God

> It's more that Ra's set the stage for their deaths.  He and the LOS tanked Gotham's economy to further their goals.  This in turn made people like Joe Chill so desperate that they felt like they had to resort to crime just to survive, and of course the Wayne's died as a consequence.  Without Ra's doing what he did, that attempted robbery probably wouldn't have happened and Bruce's parents wouldn't have died.


Yes and its still a random crime. Crime and poverty were rampant in Gotham thanks to League experiments, attitude of the rich, corruption and organized crime in the city. Begins touched on all of these. Bruce didn't become Batman because al Ghul masterminded his parents deaths, neither directly nor indirectly because the other elements were also present and those have always been a part of Batman's origin.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Why do so many diehard MCU fans spend more time and energy in DCEU and X-Men Movie related discussions and threads than in their beloved MCU threads and discussions?


I will never, ever understand the battle between the fans of both companies. When it was in the school yard at recess when I was a kid, sure, but not beyond it. But maybe my views were shaped due to being a fan of Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Spidey, The Fantastic Four, and the Marvel Superheroes on TV first before I even knew there was a DC or Marvel.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> No offense taken at all, I do remember saying that and I think I changed my perspective a bit on that topic over time. To be fair, most of my comments pretty much reflect my daily mood, sometimes I get frustrated and start ranting about WB's treatment of the GL property, not to mention how insufferable I can get about it at times in the Hal thread, just ask poor Anthony. lol But looking at the situation in perspective, I realize they needed time to disassociate themselves and the DC brand from that movie, so it made sense they excluded Hal and the GL property from the entire first DCEU phase and shied away from it for a while. I expect better things for Hal, John and the GL brand in the perhaps not so distant future. But if that one fails too, we're done for. GL would become even more toxic than the FF.


Ok, gotcha. Yea, that's how my mood usually is as well. I usually get upset when I think about the past history with John Stewart, especially if Geoff Johns' name is mentioned. So I try my best to forget about it and move forward, which I haven't been upset in a good while, due to John being the JL. I definitely know how that frustration feels. As I said earlier, I never thought that DC had zero confidence or zero faith in the character. They seem to not have as much  confidence in the character before the 2011 film released, which is why we don't see much of Green Lantern's involvement in the earlier DCEU. Which they sort of distance themselves from the GL property. But as the movie gets closer, we'll see them investing into Hal into his full potential. Everything you said I agree with.

----------


## Confuzzled

Matt Reeves seems to have great taste when it comes to Batman. On asked about his favorite Batman stories:




> There are many...  I love Year One, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, *Ego*...  Many others...  *Neal Adams is awesome*...  Love the original Kane and Finger...  I could go on...!


https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...55473587486723

And apparently Jeph Loeb was one of his screenwriting teachers in college.

----------


## Armor of God

We've already seen the Loeb and Miller influences in TDKT.  I'm more interested in Ego and the Finger/Kane part of his post

----------


## Confuzzled

> We've already seen the Loeb and Miller influences in TDKT.  I'm more interested in Ego and the Finger/Kane part of his post


How can you skip the "Neal Adams is awesome!" part?

----------


## Gaastra

Anyone see the new Deadpool trailer?  "so dark--are you sure your not from the dc universe?"  Of course he makes fun of thanos and the logan movie also.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Anyone see the new Deadpool trailer?  "so dark--are you sure your not from the dc universe?"  Of course he makes fun of thanos and the logan movie also.


Like I needed another reason to have nothing to do with the Deadpool movies.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> How can you skip the "Neal Adams is awesome!" part?


I didn't. That was the first thing I noticed, since Adams is my favorite artist of all-time.  :Smile:

----------


## Confuzzled

> Anyone see the new Deadpool trailer?  "so dark--are you sure your not from the dc universe?"  Of course he makes fun of thanos and the logan movie also.


The official _Teen Titans Go!_ Twitter account though gave back good:




> Hey @VancityReynolds, caught your new @deadpoolmovie trailer. Never forget - before you became a @Marvel character, *you were a part of the @DCComics universe.* #TeenTitansGOMovie


And with the actual Green Lantern joke from the trailer to emphasise the point  :Stick Out Tongue:  : https://twitter.com/TeenTitansMovie/...64857681100800




> I didn't. That was the first thing I noticed, since Adams is my favorite artist of all-time.


The Adams praise and Ego in particular got me very interested.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Matt Reeves seems to have great taste when it comes to Batman. On asked about his favorite Batman stories:
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...55473587486723
> 
> And apparently Jeph Loeb was one of his screenwriting teachers in college.


Excellent.

----------


## Gaastra

> The Adams praise and Ego in particular got me very interested.


Should I pick up a adams batman trade?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Should I pick up a adams batman trade?


Of course!

----------


## vasir12

> Like I needed another reason to have nothing to do with the Deadpool movies.





> Anyone see the new Deadpool trailer?  "so dark--are you sure your not from the dc universe?"  Of course he makes fun of thanos and the logan movie also.


I thought that was hilarious lol. That movie is a must see for me.

----------


## Frontier

> Matt Reeves seems to have great taste when it comes to Batman. On asked about his favorite Batman stories:
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...55473587486723
> 
> And apparently Jeph Loeb was one of his screenwriting teachers in college.


Cool  :Smile: .

Loeb as a screenwriting teacher...well, I've never really been impressed by Loeb's on-screen work but at least Reeve's direct influences are some of his best comic work.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> How can you skip the "Neal Adams is awesome!" part?


The O'Neil/Adams' BATMAN should be a must read if you want to make a Batman feature film.

I would love more of that Batman.

----------


## Hawkman

> Like I needed another reason to have nothing to do with the Deadpool movies.


I understand we're in the minority here, but I'm with you on this one. I've yet to see the first film, even. Ryan Reynolds playing Deadpool is like a double-dose of unlikable for me. No way could I take a 2-hour film of it.

----------


## Jokerz79

Oh thank god finally someone doing Batman again who likes Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams and the Long Halloween and no mention of Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns.

----------


## Rincewind

> Oh thank god finally someone doing Batman again who likes Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams and the Long Halloween and no mention of Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns.


I agree.  You shouldn't use The Dark Knight Returns Batman as a starting point for a shared universe.

----------


## AquaLantern

> Like I needed another reason to have nothing to do with the Deadpool movies.


Same. I never hated the MCU but I’m becoming more reluctant to watch their films because I’m tired of critics and fans using them to bash the DCEU.

----------


## Gaastra

Well he also bashes logan and thanos in the trailer also.  Plus teen titans go did a far worse bash in their trailer at aquaman.




> Of course!


I'll pick it up then.  Thanks.

----------


## Robotman

it's so odd to me that we've gotten to this point. when Deadpool and Cable were created, it was a time when Marvel was leading the way on "edgy" "badass" anti-hero characters. Cable became a poster boy for the all action no substance hero and was parodied in Kingdom Come with Magog. a hero who was modern and "badass" and was there to replace the "outdated" Superman. now DC (cinematic universe) is made fun of because it’s ridiculously edgy and overly dark universe.

----------


## Assam

> I thought that was hilarious lol. That movie is a must see for me.


Same. Thought the first one was great and this looks like it'll be even better (bringing the count for 'Good X-Men movies' up to 4.) Fans of the DCEU really shouldn't take offense; these movies make fun of everything.

----------


## Frontier

It's not like DC isn't above having fun with their own work  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Same. I never hated the MCU but I’m becoming more reluctant to watch their films because I’m tired of critics and fans using them to bash the DCEU.


That wouldn't happen if they weren't given the material/results to bash.  That is on WB and the choices they've made.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Same. Thought the first one was great and this looks like it'll be even better (bringing the count for 'Good X-Men movies' up to 4.) Fans of the DCEU really shouldn't take offense; these movies make fun of everything.


I wouldn't call it great but it was unique and very good.  That being said... I definitely feel like it isn't half as entertaining the second time around.  The super fans of the DCEU to date will always take offense out of insecurity.  I'm a DC fan and I thought the comment was hilarious.

----------


## Agent Z

> I wouldn't call it great but it was unique and very good.  That being said... I definitely feel like it isn't half as entertaining the second time around.  The super fans of the DCEU to date will always take offense out of insecurity.  I'm a DC fan and I thought the comment was hilarious.


Or maybe they don't find it funny. I know, a crazy idea.

And I see way more insecurity from DC fans who hate the DCEU than those that like it. Just check the thread asking about whether people are envious of the MCU.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Or maybe they don't find it funny. I know, a crazy idea.
> 
> And I see way more insecurity from DC fans who hate the DCEU than those that like it. Just check the thread asking about whether people are envious of the MCU.


I guess THOSE people are envious then lol.

I still don't get how you can be a fan of DC properties and wish they were _exactly like_ Marvel properties though. The fact that they were always substantially different enough is why both of them coexisted in the first place.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I guess THOSE people are envious then lol.
> 
> I still don't get how you can be a fan of DC properties and wish they were _exactly like_ Marvel properties though. The fact that they were always substantially different enough is why both of them coexisted in the first place.


Haha.  Exactly.  We can only comment on what we've seen in this thread.  I wouldn't go anywhere near that thread!  The DC Universe just stumbled badly on its first few steps.   I do think the DC productions are on the right track now with their new slate of directors.  Time will tell if it ever has the sales and popularity of  the Marvel universe.  I have a lot of faith in Hamada to create something more cohesive.  

Off topic... WTH is up with that Shatterstar costume?

----------


## Soubhagya

> It's not like DC isn't above having fun with their own work .


Man, they omitted Superman even here! Perhaps avoiding spoilers.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Punisher007

They made fun of Thanos, The Goonies, Logan, etc in the trailer as well.  Also they made fun of the goofy "deflecting bullets with swords" trick in X-Men Origins: Wolverine as well.

Deadpool is an equal-opportunity jokster, he mocks everyone and everything, including himself.  There's no malice behind it.

----------


## Punisher007

> The official _Teen Titans Go!_ Twitter account though gave back good:
> 
> 
> 
> And with the actual Green Lantern joke from the trailer to emphasise the point  : https://twitter.com/TeenTitansMovie/...64857681100800
> 
> 
> 
> The Adams praise and Ego in particular got me very interested.


Deadpool already made fun of the GL movie himself with the first film.  Also the GL film isn't in the DCEU continuity.

----------


## Gaastra

Plus as many people have pointed out in the comments he was in blade 3 a marvel movie BEFORE he did GL so the ttg twitter slam on him backfired.

----------


## jertz666

On 4/14/2018, I posted the following on this very thread.




> What do you guys think of Steven Spielberg directing a movie for the DCEU?  I bet the WB folks are currently working hard behind the scenes right now trying to sign him up.  I suspect that's one of the reasons they bankrolled his latest movie  "Ready Player One,"  a relatively expensive movie with uncertain box-office prospects.  ...


Sure enough, three days later -- as everyone know by now -- my prophecy came to pass.

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/st...dc-1202756319/

This is freaking me out.  Either I got lucky or I'm a metahuman with precog powers.  I hope not the latter because I'm getting very uncertain vibes about the future of DC movies.   

The last 3 directors announced to join the DCEU were Ava Duvernay, Cathy Yan and Steven Spielberg, a diverse mix in terms of race, gender and experience.   Frankly, I'm not feeling good about this.  There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to WB's decisions.  

Some of the choices seem spot on.   In the cases of Matt Reeves and Steven Spielberg, it's a good marriage of director to material.  Other choices, like Duvernay for the New Gods,  are just plain bizzare.  Most worrisome is the choice of a newcomer to helm the Birds of Prey movie.   Zack Snyder's production company was involved in all recent DCEU movies.  Now that Snyder's out, i hope WB can assemble a talented production team that'll work well with a newcomer at the helm. 

Still, it doesn't look like the DC movies will be connected to one another.   And they won't even have a consistent tone or visual style.   Should we even refer to them as a "universe?"   I suspect the movies themselves will end up varying widely in quality.

----------


## jertz666

> They made fun of Thanos, The Goonies, Logan, etc in the trailer as well.  Also they made fun of the goofy "deflecting bullets with swords" trick in X-Men Origins: Wolverine as well.
> 
> Deadpool is an equal-opportunity jokster, he mocks everyone and everything, including himself.  There's no malice behind it.


The joke wasn't even a diss.   They're just saying the DCEU is "dark" ...  wasn't that the intention :  Make movies that are darker than the competition's ?   There's nothing inherently wrong with that.    Meanwhile, one of the TTG ads actively dissed Aquaman, implying he's not worthy of a movie.    So yeah,  glass houses and all that...

----------


## Agent Z

> The joke wasn't even a diss.   They're just saying the DCEU is "dark" ...  wasn't that the intention :  Make movies that are darker than the competition's ?   *There's nothing inherently wrong with that. *   Meanwhile, one of the TTG ads actively dissed Aquaman, implying he's not worthy of a movie.    So yeah,  glass houses and all that...


Not according to the Internet.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> On 4/14/2018, I posted the following on this very thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure enough, three days later -- as everyone know by now -- my prophecy came to pass.
> 
> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/st...dc-1202756319/
> 
> This is freaking me out.  Either I got lucky or I'm a metahuman with precog powers.  I hope not the latter because I'm getting very uncertain vibes about the future of DC movies.   
> ...


We have every right to be skeptical until we start seeing better quality movies rather than just announcement after announcement.  I'm more worried about Duvernay taking too many liberties while making the movie "her own."  I still want to hear more Flash and Batman news.  I'm glad they are taking their time, but it is somewhat discouraging to be hearing all these other announcements before anything about those two.  I guess they are giving those two properties time/room to breathe after the Justice League disappointment.

----------


## Jabare

*‘Teen Titans Go’ calls out Ryan Reynolds for Deadpool’s DC Universe diss
*https://www.altpress.com/news/entry/...adpool_dc_diss

----------


## Confuzzled

The "concerns" are getting ridiculous. A couple of months back people were making smug posts saying after the underperformance of _Justice League_, no talented and respected names would touch the DCEU (and apparently James Wan and Patty Jenkins were not "talented and respected" enough).

Now that we have even more respected names like Spielberg and DuVernay attached, the whining has shifted to "WB is giving everyone a project and doesn't know what they're doing". It's one thing to not be sipping the Kool-Aid again but at this point, for some online "concerned" posters, there's nothing WB could do that would seem right.

----------


## The_Lurk

Maybe DC could retroactively accept GL as part of the DCEU? The GL cameo in JL fits with the GL movie anyway. Sure, if Hal & Sinestro made an appearance going on they might need an recast (although it might be kind of an ultimate punchline if they should get RR to don the green again  :Big Grin:  ) but its not like the majority has much problems with the GL movie. Sure, it was not the 2nd coming of Superhero movies (most are not) but its faaaar from the worst thing ever in existence as the negative hype train loves to makes it out to be.

Apparently it has quite a lot of ppl being fond of it.

GreenLantern_Shocking.jpg

----------


## Gaastra

Don't forget it won't be till about 2020 before he even starts Blackhawk.  Steven has two movies to make before it.  Next up is jones 5.

----------


## ross61

> On 4/14/2018, I posted the following on this very thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure enough, three days later -- as everyone know by now -- my prophecy came to pass.
> 
> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/st...dc-1202756319/
> 
> This is freaking me out.  Either I got lucky or I'm a metahuman with precog powers.  I hope not the latter because I'm getting very uncertain vibes about the future of DC movies.   
> ...


How the hell did you come to that conclusion?

----------


## AquaLantern

> That wouldn't happen if they weren't given the material/results to bash.  That is on WB and the choices they've made.


I don't care it's still no excuse. I was pretty neutral with MCU but the moment critics couldn't make reviews about Captain America: Civil War without making a jab at BvS my view on them really soured. I find that to be a very cheap pathetic tactic to bash product A in order to praise product B.

That doesn't mean I want positive reviews of Aquaman to take shots at Black Panther or Ant-Man and the Wasp. I just want DCEU to live on without people bitching it's isn't exactly like Marvel.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The "concerns" are getting ridiculous. A couple of months back people were making smug posts saying after the underperformance of _Justice League_, no talented and respected names would touch the DCEU (and apparently James Wan and Patty Jenkins were not "talented and respected" enough).
> 
> Now that we have even more respected names like Spielberg and DuVernay attached, the whining has shifted to "WB is giving everyone a project and doesn't know what they're doing". It's one thing to not be sipping the Kool-Aid again but at this point, for some online "concerned" posters, there's nothing WB could do that would seem right.


Absolutley.  You can be concerned based on past track record but the directing talent that is now attached is better than it previously was.  I'm not sold on DuVernay for this type of movie but the talent that is attached now is absolutely an improvement.  I think some people don't realize how good Wan is... and that his track record is excellent.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Plus as many people have pointed out in the comments he was in blade 3 a marvel movie BEFORE he did GL so the ttg twitter slam on him backfired.


Man, Ryan Reynolds has been in a lot of crappy CBMs.
Anyone remember RIPD? Aside from Deadpool, GL was one of his better comic book roles.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> On 4/14/2018, I posted the following on this very thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure enough, three days later -- as everyone know by now -- my prophecy came to pass.
> 
> http://variety.com/2018/film/news/st...dc-1202756319/
> 
> This is freaking me out.  Either I got lucky or I'm a metahuman with precog powers.  I hope not the latter because I'm getting very uncertain vibes about the future of DC movies.   
> ...


The DC films will be loosely connected.  They're just not going to become episodic team-up features on the big screen like the MCU, and frankly DC Films should have never tried that approach.  The DCU and MU are two different universes. Traditionally, each DC hero was treated as though they were the only hero in the world. As time went on, those heroes were pulled together into a loosely affiliated universe, where they could come together and work as team, but also separate again and return to their corners of the world.

The Avengers are like an NFL team, say the New England Patriots.  They train together, live in the same town, and run into each other on a regular basis. They become a well-oiled machine as they take on threats or other teams.  The Justice League is like the Olympic All-Star basketball team.  They're a group of champions from different towns joined together to take on threats no one person can.  When the job is done, everyone heads back to their respective cities and day jobs.

That's how it should be with DC Films.  The solo features should focus squarely on the protagonists and their situations.  Does Superman exist in the world of Captain Marvel (Shazam)? Yes, but the movie won't be driven on the idea that Superman exists.  They're meant to be stand alone films telling their own stories.

----------


## Frontier

Screen Rant apparently has the castings for the other adult forms of the Marvel Family.

Adam Brody is Freddy Freeman

Michelle Borth is Mary

Ross Butler is Eugene

D. J. Cotrona is Pedro

Meagan Good is Darla

----------


## Robotman

> Screen Rant apparently has the castings for the other adult forms of the Marvel Family.
> 
> Adam Brody is Freddy Freeman
> 
> Michelle Borth is Mary
> 
> Ross Butler is Eugene
> 
> D. J. Cotrona is Pedro
> ...


So they couldn’t find a Hispanic actor to play the adult Pedro?!?

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> The DC films will be loosely connected.  They're just not going to become episodic team-up features on the big screen like the MCU, and frankly DC Films should have never tried that approach.  The DCU and MU are two different universes. Traditionally, each DC hero was treated as though they were the only hero in the world. As time went on, those heroes were pulled together into a loosely affiliated universe, where they could come together and work as team, but also separate again and return to their corners of the world.
> 
> The Avengers are like an NFL team, say the New England Patriots.  They train together, live in the same town, and run into each other on a regular basis. They become a well-oiled machine as they take on threats or other teams.  The Justice League is like the Olympic All-Star basketball team.  They're a group of champions from different towns joined together to take on threats no one person can.  When the job is done, everyone heads back to their respective cities and day jobs.
> 
> That's how it should be with DC Films.  The solo features should focus squarely on the protagonists and their situations.  Does Superman exist in the world of Captain Marvel (Shazam)? Yes, but the movie won't be driven on the idea that Superman exists.  They're meant to be stand alone films telling their own stories.


That is a good perspective on the comparison.




> Screen Rant apparently has the castings for the other adult forms of the Marvel Family.
> 
> Adam Brody is Freddy Freeman
> 
> Michelle Borth is Mary
> 
> Ross Butler is Eugene
> 
> D. J. Cotrona is Pedro
> ...


I'm not that well versed on the Marvel family.  Aren't Freddy Freeman and Mary supposed to be like late teens, early 20's?  Borth and Brody would be a little too old if that was the case.  Admittedly I don't know much about them other than that they exist.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm not that well versed on the Marvel family.  Aren't Freddy Freeman and Mary supposed to be like late teens, early 20's?  Borth and Brody would be a little too old if that was the case.  Admittedly I don't know much about them other than that they exist.


These aren't their kid forms. These are supposed to be the actors for their adult bodies, like Zachary Levi is to Asher Angel.

----------


## El_Gato

> So they couldnt find a Hispanic actor to play the adult Pedro?!?


I guess Jay Hernandez was the exception lol They probably figured DJ Catrona was ethnic looking enough... Another example of an Italian playing a Mexican/Latino. Happens all the time...

----------


## Robotman

So Kevin Feige has stated that a Nova movie could definitely be in the Marvel cinematic universe future. I guess theyll be showing WB how to make a good Green Lantern-like movie. Marvel Studios has already done their main heroes justice on screen ten times over so they may as well move onto their DC doppelgängers. Wouldnt be surprised if a Sentry movie was announced soon. 





> I guess Jay Hernandez was the exception lol They probably figured DJ Catrona was ethnic looking enough... Another example of an Italian playing a Mexican/Latino. Happens all the time...


Hollywood in general still isnt a big fan of Hispanics. Well you cant blame them as its difficult to find Hispanics in the Hollywood/Los Angeles area. Oh wait, were the majority of the freaking population!!!

----------


## Johnny

> So Kevin Feige has stated that a Nova movie could definitely be in the Marvel cinematic universe future. I guess they’ll be showing WB how to make a good Green Lantern-like movie.


Given that Carol Danvers is practically a female Hal Jordan, Captain Marvel will do that next year.

----------


## AquaLantern

> So Kevin Feige has stated that a Nova movie could definitely be in the Marvel cinematic universe future. I guess they’ll be showing WB how to make a good Green Lantern-like movie. Marvel Studios has already done their main heroes justice on screen ten times over so they may as well move onto their DC doppelgängers. Wouldn’t be surprised if a Sentry movie was announced soon.


Yes because that's what we need; another 100 reviews of a Marvel film taking a jab at DC.

----------


## Raijin

> Yes because what we need; another 100 reviews of a Marvel film taking a jab at DC.


ive been lurking in this thread for a few weeks and it seems like this thread is consisted of who can complain the loudest. Some people on here will never like anything these movies do, no matter what?  Why are they here repeating themselves over and over?

----------


## The True Detective

> ive been lurking in this thread for a few weeks and it seems like this thread is consisted of who can complain the loudest. Some people on here will never like anything these movies do, no matter what?  Why are they here repeating themselves over and over?


Because complaining on the internet is addictive to some people, instead of simply going "Y'know what? WB/DC  apparently are incapable of consistently making films I like so I'm done with them, I'll stick to watching and posting about Marvel films." That would be too easy for them, aggravation must be healthy, who knows. To me it's like continuing to eat at a restraunt you think sucks then going on yelp ranting about how much it sucks daily. Might be time to stop eating there genius.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> ive been lurking in this thread for a few weeks and it seems like this thread is consisted of who can complain the loudest. Some people on here will never like anything these movies do, no matter what?  Why are they here repeating themselves over and over?


Because they love DC characters and wish that they had better showings on film or that the films reflected what they loved about DC Comics.

----------


## Bossace

So the “Down With Disney's Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys” have another event trying to bash avengers like they tried with BP the worst part is in the image logo they have #DCoverMarvel #AvengeDC saying to flood rotten tomatoes with bad reviews and even worse spoil the movie to people online or in person.

These little small groups is what gets headlines and make more people look bad... do these people have nothing better to do? Can’t we just enjoy movies.

----------


## Raijin

> Because they love DC characters and wish that they had better showings on film or that the films reflected what they loved about DC Comics.


That's not what i get from most of these comments on here, sadly. I've seen people think that they know how to do things better than the studios, people who talk down on others because they enjoyed the movies and people who are just over the top pessimistic. It's sad really.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So the Down With Disney's Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys have another event trying to bash avengers like they tried with BP the worst part is in the image logo they have #DCoverMarvel #AvengeDC saying to flood rotten tomatoes with bad reviews and even worse spoil the movie to people online or in person.
> 
> These little small groups is what gets headlines and make more people look bad... do these people have nothing better to do? Cant we just enjoy movies.


The group who tried to target Black Panther admitted they weren't DC fans but Alt-Righters just using DC as their shield. No real DC fan, whether they are a fan of the DCEU or not, bought into that bs. In fact, a bunch of DC fans even raised money to take underprivileged children to watch Black Panther in cinemas.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> That's not what i get from most of these comments on here, sadly. I've seen people think that they know how to do things better than the studios, people who talk down on others because they enjoyed the movies and people who are just over the top pessimistic. It's sad really.


They criticize it *because* they love the characters and *because* they want the DCEU to be successful. And some would rather ignore the problem, and make straw man attacks against the competition than actually fix what's wrong.

----------


## Raijin

> They criticize it *because* they love the characters and *because* they want the DCEU to be successful. And some would rather ignore the problem, and make straw man attacks against the competition than actually fix what's wrong.


You have some who liked the movies while still acknowledging the problems and flaws. I'm one of those guys. I have no shame either. But most act as if these movies are some of the worst in the history of cinema and I think that's absurd. But I can admit that the movies aren't as good as they should be. But people should not be quick to shame others. I thought different perspectives were important.

----------


## Confuzzled

> You have some who liked the movies while still acknowledging the problems and flaws. I'm one of those guys. I have no shame either. But most act as if these movies are some of the worst in the history of cinema and I think that's absurd. But I can admit that the movies aren't as good as they should be. But people should not be quick to shame others. I thought different perspectives were important.


True. And Zack Snyder who directed 3/4 criticised films is no longer directing. Ditto for David Ayer, the director of the only other criticized film.

So, who or what are they complaining about again? Patty Jenkins, the woman responsible for giving a breakout Wonder Woman movie? James Wan, who is dubbed as the "Master of Modern Horror" and was responsible for one of the biggest films of all time (Fast 7)? Steven Spielberg, one of the greatest directors of all time? Ava DuVernay, one of the industry's most groundbreaking voices? 

What a waste of time and energy.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I guess Jay Hernandez was the exception lol They probably figured DJ Catrona was ethnic looking enough... Another example of an Italian playing a Mexican/Latino. Happens all the time...


And Jay Hernandez appears in multiple David Ayer projects. I think Ayer probably included El Diablo in the film so as to hire Hernandez as they seem to share a great working relationship. 

For Shazam!, at least there is Little Pedro (who will get more screen time than Adult Pedro) and the actress playing Rosa Vasquez. Catrona was previously hired to play Superman in Justice League Mortal (Adam Brody who is playing Adult Freddy, played Flash). So I think someone at WB really loved them playing DC superheroes and wanted them back.

----------


## adrikito

You are talking about deadpool here too...  I always hated deadpool. But I am really dissapointed with Ryan Reynolds.

Fortunatelly, I don´t read marvel comics and they can only catch me with spiderman movies.

----------


## Carabas

> ive been lurking in this thread for a few weeks and it seems like this thread is consisted of who can complain the loudest. Some people on here will never like anything these movies do, no matter what?  Why are they here repeating themselves over and over?


Practically everybody loves the Wonder Woman film, no matter how much they dislike the entire rest of the DCEU.
So maybe it really is about the quality.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Practically everybody loves the Wonder Woman film, no matter how much they dislike the entire rest of the DCEU.
> So maybe it really is about the quality.


And the director of Wonder Woman is the only one who has been retained. So again, what are the complaints about?

----------


## Vanguard-01

Cinemacon starts today. WB has a panel set up for tomorrow and there are rumors there may be an Aquaman trailer. 

Fingers crossed.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Cinemacon starts today. WB has a panel set up for tomorrow and there are rumors there may be an Aquaman trailer. 
> 
> Fingers crossed.


It would be very foolish to release it this close to Infinity War. Should wait until a few weeks after it’s release.

----------


## AquaLantern

> And the director of Wonder Woman is the only one who has been retained. So again, what are the complaints about?


My guess:

"Zack Snyder ruined meh childhood."
"Zack Snyder doesn't understand these characters."
"How dare the DCEU attempt to have a different tone than MCU."

----------


## Vanguard-01

> It would be very foolish to release it this close to Infinity War. Should wait until a few weeks after it’s release.


If this was the only trailer Aquaman was getting. I'd agree. But the movie isn't coming out until December. They can get out another trailer or two before then. This is just the first push to stir up some initial interest.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Keep in mind that Cinemacon is an industry/press-exclusive sort of event, so unlike cons like SDCC what gets shown might not be released to the public.

So even if Aquaman footage is shown, we may not get a trailer.

----------


## jertz666

> .
> The last 3 directors announced to join the DCEU were Ava Duvernay, Cathy Yan and Steven Spielberg, a diverse mix in terms of race, gender and experience.   Frankly, I'm not feeling good about this.  There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to WB's decisions.





> How the hell did you come to that conclusion?


I'm assuming you're referring to the last statement in my original post.   I actually did my research before I posted that.  

Like I said,  Steven Spielberg seem to be a great fit for Blackhawks.  So no arguments there.

I'm not sure New Gods is a good fit for Ava DuVernay.  If you look at her previous directorial work there are two recurring themes:  Issues of concern to African-Americans and female empowerment.    With Wrinkle in Time, she and her writers race-swapped the lead, took out all biblical references from the novel  and replaced them with messages of empowerment.   Is she going to do the same to the New Gods?  Will Big Barda be portrayed by an African-American actress?    Will Apokolips and New Genesis' estrangement be an allegory for racial segregation?   Will the Female Furies be portrayed as victims of the patriarchal establishment?    Do we REALLY need all that  when the New Gods mythology is complicated enough as it is?    More importantly, with its huge cast of bizarre beings in weird costumes, a New Gods movie would really benefit from someone with a quirky and distinct visual style .... maybe a Tim Burton.  If we didn't already have a Black Lightning TV show, I think DuVernay  would be perfect  for a Black Lightning movie.   It would be right up her alley while providing some scope for her to expand.

As for Cathy Yan,  she only has one feature film to her credit:  "Dead Pigs."   This is the trailer/clip I saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLN5pIKKaOo

Maybe it's me but nothing in this trailer made me think..."This director should make an action movie!"   Some filmmakers -- Spielberg, Robert Rodriguez,  Gareth Evans, etc -- have shown an ability to shoot compeling action scenes in their very early no-budget works.    This is not one of those.    It's not that type of movie.   It was well-received and does seem interesting in an arthouse-indie kinda way but we're talking about superheroes here.

As I said in my original post, If WB is willing to gamble on newcomers, I hope they provide a talented and supportive production team.  Zack Snyder's production company did that for Wonder Woman covering for Patty Jenkins' inexperience with big action scenes  but Zack's already out of the picture.  He's still listed as a producer for Aquaman but his production company is not listed in the credits.   Both him and his company are absent from Shazam's credits.

----------


## Agent Z

> I'm not sure New Gods is a good fit for Ava DuVernay.  If you look at her previous directorial work there are two recurring themes:  Issues of concern to African-Americans and female empowerment.    With Wrinkle in Time, she and her writers race-swapped the lead, took out all biblical references from the novel  and replaced them with messages of empowerment.   Is she going to do the same to the New Gods?  Will Big Barda be portrayed by an African-American actress?    Will Apokolips and New Genesis' estrangement be an allegory for racial segregation?   Will the Female Furies be portrayed as victims of the patriarchal establishment?    Do we REALLY need all that  when the New Gods mythology is complicated enough as it is?    More importantly, with its huge cast of bizarre beings in weird costumes, a New Gods movie would really benefit from someone with a quirky and distinct visual style .... maybe a Tim Burton.  If we didn't already have a Black Lightning TV show, I think DuVernay  would be perfect  for a Black Lightning movie.   It would be right up her alley while providing some scope for her to expand.


1)	Plenty of directors are capable of going out of their comfort zone. 
2)	Taika Watiti snuck in an anti-colonialism message into the third Thor, a franchise that has never dealt with such theme before in the comics or related media. Every director brings their own unique style to whatever movie they make. Barda being played by a black actress would hardly be the worst thing in the world and given the box office and critical disasters he’s been turning in since the 2000s, I wouldn’t Burton within a hundred feet of any comic book adaptation  I wanted to succeed. 




> As for Cathy Yan,  she only has one feature film to her credit:  "Dead Pigs."   This is the trailer/clip I saw.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLN5pIKKaOo
> 
> Maybe it's me but nothing in this trailer made me think..."This director should make an action movie!"   Some filmmakers -- Spielberg, Robert Rodriguez,  Gareth Evans, etc -- have shown an ability to shoot compeling action scenes in their very early no-budget works.    This is not one of those.    It's not that type of movie.   It was well-received and does seem interesting in an arthouse-indie kinda way but we're talking about superheroes here.
> 
> As I said in my original post, If WB is willing to gamble on newcomers, I hope they provide a talented and supportive production team.  Zack Snyder's production company did that for Wonder Woman covering for Patty Jenkins' inexperience with big action scenes  but Zack's already out of the picture.  He's still listed as a producer for Aquaman but his production company is not listed in the credits.   Both him and his company are absent from Shazam's credits.


You wanna know how many action movies the Russo brothers made before they were handed the Captain America films? None.  Their filmography consisted of two underperforming, mediocre-at-best, comedies and a few short movies, one of which was called _Carfuckers_ of all things. Yet they’ve turned in two of the most praised entries in the MCU. I wouldn’t write off DuVernay and Yan just yet. Especially as the latter’s pre-superhero work is much better.

----------


## Agent Z

> I'm not sure New Gods is a good fit for Ava DuVernay.  If you look at her previous directorial work there are two recurring themes:  Issues of concern to African-Americans and female empowerment.    With Wrinkle in Time, she and her writers race-swapped the lead, took out all biblical references from the novel  and replaced them with messages of empowerment.   Is she going to do the same to the New Gods?  Will Big Barda be portrayed by an African-American actress?    Will Apokolips and New Genesis' estrangement be an allegory for racial segregation?   Will the Female Furies be portrayed as victims of the patriarchal establishment?    Do we REALLY need all that  when the New Gods mythology is complicated enough as it is?    More importantly, with its huge cast of bizarre beings in weird costumes, a New Gods movie would really benefit from someone with a quirky and distinct visual style .... maybe a Tim Burton.  If we didn't already have a Black Lightning TV show, I think DuVernay  would be perfect  for a Black Lightning movie.   It would be right up her alley while providing some scope for her to expand.


1)	Plenty of directors are capable of going out of their comfort zone. 
2)	Taika Watiti snuck in an anti-colonialism message into the third Thor, a franchise that has never dealt with such theme before in the comics or related media. Every director brings their own unique style to whatever movie they make. Barda being played by a black actress would hardly be the worst thing in the world and given the box office and critical disasters hes been turning in since the 2000s, I wouldnt Burton within a hundred feet of any comic book adaptation  I wanted to succeed. 




> As for Cathy Yan,  she only has one feature film to her credit:  "Dead Pigs."   This is the trailer/clip I saw.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLN5pIKKaOo
> 
> Maybe it's me but nothing in this trailer made me think..."This director should make an action movie!"   Some filmmakers -- Spielberg, Robert Rodriguez,  Gareth Evans, etc -- have shown an ability to shoot compeling action scenes in their very early no-budget works.    This is not one of those.    It's not that type of movie.   It was well-received and does seem interesting in an arthouse-indie kinda way but we're talking about superheroes here.
> 
> As I said in my original post, If WB is willing to gamble on newcomers, I hope they provide a talented and supportive production team.  Zack Snyder's production company did that for Wonder Woman covering for Patty Jenkins' inexperience with big action scenes  but Zack's already out of the picture.  He's still listed as a producer for Aquaman but his production company is not listed in the credits.   Both him and his company are absent from Shazam's credits.


You wanna know how many action movies the Russo brothers made before they were handed the Captain America films? None.  Their filmography consisted of two underperforming, mediocre-at-best, comedies and a few short movies, one of which was called _Carfuckers_ of all things. Yet theyve turned in two of the most praised entries in the MCU. I wouldnt write off DuVernay and Yan just yet. Especially as the latters pre-superhero work is much better.

----------


## Carabas

> My guess:
> 
> "Zack Snyder ruined meh childhood."
> "Zack Snyder doesn't understand these characters."
> "How dare the DCEU attempt to have a different tone than MCU."


To me it is more "Zack Snyder does not understand basic storytelling and editing" rather than anything specific to DC characters.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> You have some who liked the movies while still acknowledging the problems and flaws. I'm one of those guys. I have no shame either. But most act as if these movies are some of the worst in the history of cinema and I think that's absurd. But I can admit that the movies aren't as good as they should be. But people should not be quick to shame others. I thought different perspectives were important.


That is the boat I am in.  I enjoyed aspects of all the movies but still thought they didn't even come close to what they cold have been for whatever reason.  I think the problem for many is that these past movies have put a hold on when they get to see some of these characters again.  Obviously Aquaman and Wonder Woman are exceptions.  Flash, Superman (own movie), the Batfleck fiasco (I think he would be more attached to the projects if they were better received), and most especially a Justice League 2 is probably years away at best.  Now I'll just watch the two comic movies that come out before Aquaman and probably enjoy them.  I'm quite confident that Aquaman will be a good movie... sadly a lot more confident that I was about Justice League.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You have some who liked the movies while still acknowledging the problems and flaws. I'm one of those guys. I have no shame either. But most act as if these movies are some of the worst in the history of cinema and I think that's absurd. But I can admit that the movies aren't as good as they should be. But people should not be quick to shame others. I thought different perspectives were important.


I agree. Like or dislike them all you want, but at least curb the hyperbole. They're not the greatest films of all-time (no CBM is, IMO), but they're not remotely the worst, either. Collectively, IMO, they're closer to the middle than the extremes.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> If this was the only trailer Aquaman was getting. I'd agree. But the movie isn't coming out until December. They can get out another trailer or two before then. This is just the first push to stir up some initial interest.


Agree or disagree all you want. It’s PR 101: your first public engagement is the most critical.

----------


## capNthor

> I agree. Like or dislike them all you want, but at least curb the hyperbole. They're not the greatest films of all-time (no CBM is, IMO), but they're not remotely the worst, either. Collectively, IMO, they're closer to the middle than the extremes.


Man of Steel and Justice League are average-ish, if not a hair below. I can’t fanthom how anyone could love or hate them.

But BVS and especially Suicide Squad definitely fall under some of the worst. Maybe three or four at most I’d put below those two since 2008.

----------


## Raijin

*Will Big Barda be portrayed by an African-American actress?* 

 I honestly think will be the case. I always viewed Barda as a black woman for some reason.[/QUOTE]

I

----------


## golgi

Different strokes for different folks. I loved Suicide Squad and MOS.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> You have some who liked the movies while still acknowledging the problems and flaws. I'm one of those guys. I have no shame either. *But most act as if these movies are some of the worst in the history of cinema and I think that's absurd*. But I can admit that the movies aren't as good as they should be. But people should not be quick to shame others. I thought different perspectives were important.


They're upset because Marvel seems to be able to churn out good movie after good movie, while DC doesn't seem to understand how to adapt even some of their most iconic properties.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Agree or disagree all you want. It’s PR 101: _your first public engagement is the most critical._


That *definitely* wasn't true for Suicide Squad, where the second trailer with the Queen song was totally different from the first trailer and had such an impact that WB made the editors who cut that trailer edit the actual film which was originally closer to the first trailer in tone to match the second one!

----------


## Confuzzled

> They're upset because Marvel seems to be able to churn out good movie after good movie, while DC doesn't seem to understand how to adapt even some of their most iconic properties.


Wonder Woman beat all Marvel origin movies not named Black Panther. And Black Panther took notes on the way Wonder Woman resonated culturally for its own marketing which helped it break out on such a huge scale too.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Wonder Woman beat all Marvel origin movies not named Black Panther. And Black Panther took notes on the way Wonder Woman resonated culturally for its own marketing which helped it break out on such a huge scale too.


Okay, and I love the Wonder Woman movie. I think its one of the best superhero movies out there. But that's kind of irrelevant to the point I was making. Wonder Woman the *only* real success DCEU has to its name right now, while the MCU has *a lot*. Wonder Woman being as good as it was doesn't change that fact. DC needs to make more movies *like* Wonder Woman and I'm hoping and praying that future movies deliver that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Okay, and I love the Wonder Woman movie. I think its one of the best superhero movies out there. But that's kind of irrelevant to the point I was making. Wonder Woman the *only* real success DCEU has to its name right now, while the MCU has *a lot*. Wonder Woman being as good as it was doesn't change that fact. DC needs to make more movies *like* Wonder Woman and I'm hoping and praying that future movies deliver that.


"Only" 1/5 movies where 3 of the other 4 movies were from the same director. Neither him nor the director of the only other critically bashed movie are attached any longer. Don't see what the whining is about anymore.

Also, MCU's first 5 movies (Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America) ranged from good (IM) to meh (Thor, CA) to bad/forgettable (TIH, IM2).

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> "Only" 1/5 movies where 3 of the other 4 movies were from the same director. Neither him nor the director of the only other critically bashed movie are attached any longer. Don't see what the whining is about anymore.


I *hope* that that means that the next few movies will be good. However, we need to see what they actually put out there. I have faith in Wan's Aquaman and Sandberg's Shazam from what I've seen so far, but its just unfortunate that DC has now built up this reputation.

And the people complaining are doing so *because* BvS and Justice League should have set the world on fire. The first ever meeting of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman in a live action film should have been something that people celebrated. The flagship team of the DCU getting their own movie should have been a milestone for the superhero movie genre. But we didn't get that. However, you still have people who defend those films as if they were some grand vision too complex to be appreciated by mere mortals. That's where the debate comes in.




> Also, MCU's first 5 movies (Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America) ranged from good (IM) to meh (Thor, CA) to bad/forgettable (TIH, IM2).


Again, personal opinions aside, the MCU's films have been vastly successful so far. That's just fact. Do I think they're absolutely perfect with nothing wrong about them? No. Of course not. Very few movies achieve that, if any. Either way, we can debate whether we like them all day long, but the MCU has won over fans worldwide. Now, I want DC to be able to have an amazing films universe too because I love both DC and Marvel.

----------


## Jokerz79

> "Only" 1/5 movies where 3 of the other 4 movies were from the same director. Neither him nor the director of the only other critically bashed movie are attached any longer. Don't see what the whining is about anymore.
> 
> Also, MCU's first 5 movies (Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America) ranged from good (IM) to meh (Thor, CA) to bad/forgettable (TIH, IM2).


Not knocking WW but First Avenger is fantastic while Incredible Hulk and Thor were good IMO.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> "Only" 1/5 movies where 3 of the other 4 movies were from the same director. Neither him nor the director of the only other critically bashed movie are attached any longer. Don't see what the whining is about anymore.


This should be reason to be optimistic alone.  That along with new leadership and a wide variety of new directors being announced.

----------


## Gaastra



----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/ErikDavis/status/988923233108807680

Twitter thread covering WB's CinemaCon panel... includes some Aquaman info:



> The War is coming to the surface and I am bringing the wrath of the seven seas with me! Damn! Very cool #Aquaman teaser that shows theres a lot of action under water and on the surface #CinemaCon

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://twitter.com/ErikDavis/status/988923233108807680
> 
> Twitter thread covering WB's CinemaCon panel... includes some Aquaman info:


Called it!  :Big Grin: 

Now they just need to "leak" it the way that Venom trailer "leaked."

----------


## Bossace

> Called it! 
> 
> Now they just need to "leak" it the way that Venom trailer "leaked."


A million times this, releasing it randomly close to the middle of the night

----------


## Confuzzled

> Not knocking WW but First Avenger is fantastic while Incredible Hulk and Thor were good IMO.


Only the first half of First Avenger is really good, until about the World War 2 montage, after which it becomes a dull mess. Thor suffered some of the same problems that IM2 did with annoying SHIELD sequences that just set up The Avengers. TIH is just forgettable with zero rewatch quality.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Called it! 
> 
> Now they just need to "leak" it the way that Venom trailer "leaked."





> A million times this, releasing it randomly close to the middle of the night


The internet's (or at least one section of the internet's) whining about "bad VFX" would be grating so I understand if they are holding it off until all the effects in the trailers are well polished. Apparently Wan insisted the scenes shown at Cinema Con were work in progress, so going by that and his previous tweets, it seems like it's really important to him that the first look at the film is a really impressive one.

----------


## gregpersons

Having just watched Infinity War, I'm increasingly convinced that DC should have started with (a different version of) a Justice League film, rather than trying to do a second-hand, rushed version of the MCU strategy.

Imagine starting the DC film universe with something like Infinity War  or, basically, a version of a "Crisis" movie with the Justice League.

Watching Infinity War, I kept thinking of how this could have been a JL movie.

Thanos = Darkseid
Thanos's children = Orion / Mister Miracle
Iron Man = Batman
Spider-Man = Nightwing
Captain America = Superman
Thor = Wonder Woman
Black Panther = Aquaman
Hulk = Cyborg
Vision = The Flash
Star-Lord = Green Lantern


and so on.


You wouldn't have as many easter eggs & references to previous films, obviously, but you could still tell the same basic story. Then expand into individual solo films thereafter.

----------


## Bossace

> Having just watched Infinity War, I'm increasingly convinced that DC should have started with (a different version of) a Justice League film, rather than trying to do a second-hand, rushed version of the MCU strategy.
> 
> Imagine starting the DC film universe with something like Infinity War — or, basically, a version of a "Crisis" movie with the Justice League.
> 
> Watching Infinity War, I kept thinking of how this could have been a JL movie.
> 
> Thanos = Darkseid
> Thanos's children = Orion / Mister Miracle
> Iron Man = Batman
> ...


I’d be down for that, establish your overall universe with a giant movie then dwell down into the details later on. My only fear is people going “why do I care about this character” for heroes who aren’t the trinity.

----------


## Raijin

> The internet's (or at least one section of the internet's) whining about "bad VFX" would be grating so I understand if they are holding it off until all the effects in the trailers are well polished. Apparently Wan insisted the scenes shown at Cinema Con were work in progress, so going by that and his previous tweets, it seems like it's really important to him that the first look at the film is a really impressive one.


Honestly Wan shouldn't go out of his way to impress fans that'll nitpick anyway.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Having just watched Infinity War, I'm increasingly convinced that DC should have started with (a different version of) a Justice League film, rather than trying to do a second-hand, rushed version of the MCU strategy.
> 
> Imagine starting the DC film universe with something like Infinity War — or, basically, a version of a "Crisis" movie with the Justice League.
> 
> Watching Infinity War, I kept thinking of how this could have been a JL movie.
> 
> Thanos = Darkseid
> Thanos's children = Orion / Mister Miracle
> Iron Man = Batman
> ...


No, it would have been too confusing. Some critics are already complaining about Infinity War being too much and too overstuffed despite most of the characters being onscreen for years. DC *introducing* most of their characters with something like Infinity War would have been received much more poorly.

----------


## Soubhagya

> Having just watched Infinity War, I'm increasingly convinced that DC should have started with (a different version of) a Justice League film, rather than trying to do a second-hand, rushed version of the MCU strategy.
> 
> Imagine starting the DC film universe with something like Infinity War  or, basically, a version of a "Crisis" movie with the Justice League.
> 
> Watching Infinity War, I kept thinking of how this could have been a JL movie.
> 
> Thanos = Darkseid
> Thanos's children = Orion / Mister Miracle
> Iron Man = Batman
> ...



If you had said this a few months ago i would have disagreed with you. But now i absolutely agree with you. DC did not need to ape Marvel. They could have started with a bang. People would have flocked to watch the first film starring Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and more. Just like they did with BvS. 

And if it was a fun film, which the people liked DCEU could have been really successful now. People did not need introduction to Batman and Superman. And Wonder Woman was not really connected to Justice League except for a short segment involving a Mother Box and flashbacks. So, we would not have lost anything. And a big and fun action, adventure film like this could have done really good. 

I was reading that before MoS there were plans to make a Justice League film, which was all bonkers involving Green Lanterns, Darkseid and the Fourth World, alternate timeline and more. And Ben Affleck was being eyed to direct. People here who think that can be confusing, don't mistake MCU fans with the general audience. I don't they would have watched all the films so far. And even if the critics are saying its overstuffed, its still sitting at 86% in Rotten Tomatoes.

----------


## Johnny

> No, it would have been too confusing. Some critics are already complaining about Infinity War being too much and too overstuffed despite most of the characters being onscreen for years. DC *introducing* most of their characters with something like Infinity War would have been received much more poorly.


To be fair, X-Men started that way and nobody complained about too many characters being introduced from the get-go. Who cares about what critics think anyway, it only matters what the audience thinks. After all, JL failed because it wasn't a good crowd pleaser, not because it had a bad RT score.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Only the first half of First Avenger is really good, until about the World War 2 montage, after which it becomes a dull mess. Thor suffered some of the same problems that IM2 did with annoying SHIELD sequences that just set up The Avengers. TIH is just forgettable with zero rewatch quality.


To be fair I loved the old Hulk TV shows references in TIH so I have some rose colored glasses there and while I love Thor in Avengers comics I've only liked certain story arcs of his solo book and since I enjoyed 's first film so much I remember thinking it was a miracle and thus I give it a good rating I consider Dark World pretty forgettable but not bad and I loved Thor Ragnarok.

----------


## Jokerz79

I don't give Snyder much credit but today I must WB cutting out Darkseid from Justice League was a huge mistake. Thanos is getting some good praise and it's just sad when Darkseid is brought to the big screen the general audience will probably judge him as a Thanos knockoff when it's actually the other way around.

----------


## adrikito

Seems that Aquaman movie can be one amazing film. I am happy for this because I was interested in this film even before this:

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/04/25/a...rst-reactions/

descripcion-impresiones-aquaman.jpg

----------


## BlackClaw

Sounds good. Now let’s all pray to god Warner Bros doesn’t meddle with this one.

----------


## adrikito

I liked these comments:

Just screened a work in progress trailer for Aquaman and it* looks way beyond the scope of anything DC has done yet.* Blade Runner underwater with more superhero action .

James Wan still deep in the editing process of AQUAMAN, but shows a work-in-progress trailer. Epic in scale much like WONDER WOMAN. Atlantis will astound. Black Manta. *This is DC’s next big hit...and will make everyone forget about JUSTICE LEAGUE.*

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Sounds good. Now let’s all pray to god Warner Bros doesn’t meddle with this one.


I can't imagine why they would.

1. Wan hasn't made a bad movie in his career. Critically or financially.

2. Sounds like this teaser was well-received. 

3. Wan and Hamada have worked together before and have made big hits every time.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I think WB meddled with the other movies besides WW because the clearly had no faith in Snyder or Ayer.

----------


## Carabas

> I think WB meddled with the other movies besides WW because the clearly had no faith in Snyder or Ayer.


They meddled because Snyder and Ayer made the final cuts of their movies at least half an hour longer than they were allowed to be.
And then WB meddled in the worst ways possible. Nobody comes out of this mess smelling great.

----------


## Tarantino

> I think WB meddled with the other movies besides WW because the clearly had no faith in Snyder or Ayer.


How many people know it was Christopher Nolan who pitched and supported Snyder to be the mastermind of  DC movies. 
Out of all the hate BvS gets, the biggest problem to me with the film was Superman being so powerful that most of the plot made little sense because Superman can get things done with ease. It's not as bad as people make it out to be. I find it more enjoyable than many of the Marvel movies but I am a bigger fan of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman meaning I will always love watching them more especially Batman. 

Snyder's career is over at WB. WB has asked themselves the obvious question. Why do other directors they have used on multiple occasion Christopher Nolan, Steven Spielberg,  Martin Scorsese, Alfonso Cuarón,  David Yates all succeed with their WB project and Snyder does not.
Spielberg and WB worked together so well on Ready Player one he could not wait to return for Blackhawk and WB  was glad to have him back. Snyder is Out. He may likely never direct a big movie again definitely not under WB. I can't say much of Ayer as I have no clue of his movies.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> They meddled because Snyder and Ayer made the final cuts of their movies at least half an hour longer than they were allowed to be.
> And then WB meddled in the worst ways possible. Nobody comes out of this mess smelling great.


Nope. Snyder was told he could make BvS a three-hour movie, then WB reneged on that at the last minute. 

The rest of what you say is accurate enough though.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Nope. Snyder was told he could make BvS a three-hour movie, then WB reneged on that at the last minute. 
> 
> The rest of what you say is accurate enough though.


Yeah, it wasn't like Snyder was doing an Erich von Stroheim on WB. They knew how large the film he wanted, but WB decided to make unhelpful cuts, anyway .

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah, it wasn't like Snyder was doing an Erich von Stroheim on WB. They knew how large the film he wanted, but WB decided to make unhelpful cuts, anyway .


Yep. And then they went and cut the worst possible stuff to cut, to make matters worse.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yep. And then they went and cut the worst possible stuff to cut, to make matters worse.


Fortunately, WB learned their lesson after that and... wait, they didn't!  :Wink:

----------


## skyvolt2000

> *To be fair, X-Men started that way and nobody complained about too many characters being introduced from the get-go.* Who cares about what critics think anyway, it only matters what the audience thinks. After all, JL failed because it wasn't a good crowd pleaser, not because it had a bad RT score.


You might need to say that again.

Also where were all these Blade & GOTG fans that demanded movies? No one cared who was on the screen as long as the films were GOOD.

No one asked who Static, Jessica Jones, the cast of Legends of Tomorrow, Cloak & Dagger, Runaways and many more who folks had no idea who they were. For many all it matter was the product WATCHABLE?


Remember we are talking about making a film to get EVERYONE in theaters not just the echo chamber of hate or comic nerds. There are folks who don't read the comics but like characters.

You do a movie version of say Blackest Night and revise it to include Cartoon Justice League Unlimited (some of them), Titans, Young Justice kids & Green Lantern CORPS (not just Hal).

Show me the person who DARES take issue with or ask why should I care about- them?

We are talking Superman, Batman, WW, John Stewart, Hal, Kyle, Guy, Tim, Jaime Reyes, Wally, Barry, Static, Hawkgirl, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Cyborg, Aquaman, Vixen, Arrow, Nightwing,  Cass, Conner, Bart, Speedy, Artemis, Aqualad, Meggan, Manhunter, Sinestro, Black Lightning and lets toss in Harley. I just gave you everyone that has appeared in cartoons of some form.

Fanboyism alone will deter complaints. Unless the script stinks.

----------


## Hawkman

Syfy posted an article about the _Aquaman_ trailer.

Pretty good buzz to be found there. At this point, I'm more pumped to see this trailer than I am the _Infinity War_ film.

----------


## AquaLantern

> I think WB meddled with the other movies besides WW because the clearly had no faith in Snyder or Ayer.


They meddled with them to satisfy the Its too dark complaints.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Glad to hear the positive news about Aquaman. Atlantis always had the potential to wow audiences as a spectacle when realized on screen. 




> I don't give Snyder much credit but today I must WB cutting out Darkseid from Justice League was a huge mistake. Thanos is getting some good praise and it's just sad when Darkseid is brought to the big screen the general audience will probably judge him as a Thanos knockoff when it's actually the other way around.


I definitely agree that's an unfortunate outcome. But on the other hand, it might be best for them to avoid him in the near future anyway. I think that's what the "a league of our own" scene was indicating; a high-profile supervillain team (outside of the X-Men I suppose) is one thing that hasn't been done yet in comic book films. And for me, it would be even better if that segued into a villain and hero team-up against the bigger bad. Because comic book stories and movies alike are over saturated with boring big bads; a story about reconciling differences and redeeming villains to fight a bigger evil would definitely be something new and more exciting than a mere boss battle.

----------


## Confuzzled

I think Darkseid and New Gods may still have the edge because of their _Game of Thrones_-ian Royal Family intrigue, Apokoliptian politics and power structures along with the history with New Genesis that make their stories more intricate than Thanos.

Having said that, I can't come up with a reason why Feige is suddenly interested in Eternals (especially when he's getting the rights to the X-Men and the Fantastic Four), other than wanting to compete with DC's recently announced New Gods project, initiating a Kirby creation arms race of sorts.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I think Darkseid and New Gods may still have the edge because of their _Game of Thrones_-ian Royal Family intrigue, Apokoliptian politics and power structures along with the history with New Genesis that make their stories more intricate than Thanos.
> 
> Having said that, I can't come up with a reason why Feige is suddenly interested in Eternals (especially when he's getting the rights to the X-Men and the Fantastic Four), other than wanting to compete with DC's recently announced New Gods project, initiating a Kirby creation arms race of sorts.


That's definitely true, but I think it's harder to pull off on screen. Added to the fact that Thor already "got their first" in a sense with Odin, Loki, Hela, etc. A Kirby arms race could be a shit show.

----------


## Arsenal

> I think Darkseid and New Gods may still have the edge because of their _Game of Thrones_-ian Royal Family intrigue, Apokoliptian politics and power structures along with the history with New Genesis that make their stories more intricate than Thanos.
> 
> Having said that, I can't come up with a reason why Feige is suddenly interested in Eternals (especially when he's getting the rights to the X-Men and the Fantastic Four), other than wanting to compete with DC's recently announced New Gods project, initiating a Kirby creation arms race of sorts.


He could simply be looking at potential alternatives should the fox deal fall through. If they made a Guardians movie, shouldn't be that hard to believe that they are open to anything at this point.

----------


## Robotman

Infinity War was pretty great. I don't think i've ever seen a film with that many stars and characters packed into it. truly a monumental feat and they pulled it off. there are so many characters and they still manage to tell a very compelling Thanos story. Marvel has been criticized for having paper thin villains, but they did an amazing job with Thanos. while watching Thanos tear through the Marvel universe and seeing how emotionally powerful his story was, i realize it will be incredibly difficult to have Darkseid follow this. 

my only complaint with the movie is that i, personally, am so sick of the "Marvel style comedy" and quips. it got to the point where it felt forced in this film. does every character have to be a smartass?!? 

while watching it i couldn't help feel sad about all the screw ups and missed opportunities that WB has had. if only Green Lantern wasn't a crap fest and they could have been building their DC movieverse since 2011. can you even imagine if it was the Legion of Superheroes instead of the Guardians of the Galaxy? Darkseid and the New Gods instead of Thanos and the Black Order? the entire Satellite Era Justice League plus more modern heroes? all in one freakin movie! 

WB needs to stop going with "visionary directors" and focus on people with good storytelling skills like the Russo Brothers. James Wan seems to fit that bill. Obviously they have Patty Jenkins too. hopefully there are more directors like them going forward.

----------


## Johnny

> While watching Thanos tear through the Marvel universe and seeing how emotionally powerful his story was, i realize it will be incredibly difficult to have Darkseid follow this.


Not to mention the irony, given that Thanos is a Darkseid ripoff, not vice-versa. WB is responsible for the Bizarro world we live in, where DC has to follow Marvel with characters they created first.

----------


## Bossace

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/sup...an-of-steel-2/

Very cool that Henry Cavill is still eager and dedicated to the hero that he wants to tell more stories and show more of Clark. This is the kinda of thing that shows you nailed a casting. Also pretty cool that he can joke about the mustache!

https://screenrant.com/man-steel-seq...perman-future/

Then we have it showing that the Superman arc was originally supposed to be a 5 movie arc. Which I could see how that would have turned out to be quite honest.

----------


## capNthor

> Not to mention the irony, given that Thanos is a Darkseid ripoff, not vice-versa. WB is responsible for the Bizarro world we live in, where DC has to follow Marvel with characters they created first.


They got the Namor ripoff into a film first, so theres that.

----------


## Johnny

> They got the Namor ripoff into a film first, so there’s that.


That's a good point, but the public has known about Aquaman for 40+ years. Whether people think/thought Aquaman was a joke, they know who he is, they didn't just find out about him when Momoa was cast. Nobody had a clue who Thanos was before 2012.

----------


## Soubhagya

After watching Infinity War, i am convinced that Darkseid not being used in Justice League was better. They put so much focus on Thanos that he is among the best comic book villains in film imo. The heroes were not the focus here. Rather, Thanos was. For the first JL film, they would have focused more on the heroes. And Darkseid would just have been another Steppenwolf. Instead of 'Mother' he would probably be saying 'Anti-Life Equation'.  

Thanos may be a CG villain, but his character was so fleshed out that Darkseid would have looked like a cartoon in comparison. There's hope that they may try something better in the future or does not appear. Steppenwolf was barely a character. Darkseid would have been like that. Only a bit more threatening.

----------


## Confuzzled

What Soubhagya said. And without getting too spoiler-y, just want to say MCU altered Thanos's personality and motivations enough to make him sufficiently different from Darkseid. 

Also, the other New Gods can and should be the strength of Darkseid's impact. Thanos's Black Order in Infinity War left much to be desired, whereas the various Apokoliptan generals, lieutenants and Furies can be well-fleshed in their own right, especially as _New Gods_ will be its own franchise.

There's plenty of room to give Mister Miracle/Big Barda/Orion far more pathos than Gamora and Nebula too (which Marvel has been sloppy about in previous films).

----------


## Confuzzled

> They got the Namor ripoff into a film first, so there’s that.


On a smaller scale, they also got their own Enchantress on screen prior (who debuted in comics a couple of years later than Marvel's Enchantress), which whether you love or hate her portrayal in the film, has had an adverse impact on Marvel's usage of its own Enchantress.

And most crucially, they managed to make Wonder Woman the first successful female led superhero film, which is the biggest way they affected Marvel.

----------


## El_Gato

> You might need to say that again.
> 
> Also where were all these Blade & GOTG fans that demanded movies? No one cared who was on the screen as long as the films were GOOD.
> 
> No one asked who Static, Jessica Jones, the cast of Legends of Tomorrow, Cloak & Dagger, Runaways and many more who folks had no idea who they were. For many all it matter was the product WATCHABLE?
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about making a film to get EVERYONE in theaters not just the echo chamber of hate or comic nerds. There are folks who don't read the comics but like characters.
> 
> ...


I'd pay big money to see a well built up event film with those characters! It'd be insane! But totally worth it! I truly hope DC gets their act together because Infinity War was really good!

----------


## Charlus

No more Henry Cavill, please, forget him. He seems like a great guy, but is a terrible actor and a terrible Superman. Let him go.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> No more Henry Cavill, please, forget him. He seems like a great guy, but is a terrible actor and a terrible Superman. Let him go.


Nah, JL showed he can play the type of Superman the majority of audience's want/expect, but hasn't been allowed to for whatever reason. The fact that he was one of the few well liked things from that movie, along with WW, shows that a GOOD Superman movie with him has a shot. The fact that things beyond his and the character's control screwed it up is not fair to him or Superman.

----------


## BlackClaw

Man after seeing Infinity War I’m even more pissed off at the DCEU for not having its shit together.

----------


## Korath

Hopefully, D.C. will make a great use of Black Adam in the future. He has everything to be as memorable as Thanos, in his way, being so complex, evil but yet so understandable that he too, could be awesome. And the Rock would be the perfect Black Adam, so D.C. better uses him well...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I think they need to scrap the DCEU in the sense of wanting things to connect, and just concentrate on making good films ala WW and let things fall and connect into place naturally. They're not catching Marvel up at all now no way, seeing the scale of IW and it's success  and the poor BO performance of JL, no point trying now. I'd rather see separate stories being told that may occasionally bleed into one another.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> What Soubhagya said. And without getting too spoiler-y, just want to say MCU altered Thanos's personality and motivations enough to make him sufficiently different from Darkseid. 
> 
> Also, the other New Gods can and should be the strength of Darkseid's impact. *Thanos's Black Order in Infinity War left much to be desired*, whereas the various Apokoliptan generals, lieutenants and Furies can be well-fleshed in their own right, especially as _New Gods_ will be its own franchise.
> 
> There's plenty of room to give Mister Miracle/Big Barda/Orion far more pathos than Gamora and Nebula too (which Marvel has been sloppy about in previous films).


They and the rest of the team on Earth subplot felt like a generic MCU movie inside IW, they had way too much screen time.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Zack Snyder wishes a happy birthday to Gal Gadot posting a pic from his cut of JL...

----------


## Lightning Rider

The teases hurt so good. Wonder what she's doing?

----------


## RepHope

> Nah, JL showed he can play the type of Superman the majority of audience's want/expect, but hasn't been allowed to for whatever reason. The fact that he was one of the few well liked things from that movie, along with WW, shows that a GOOD Superman movie with him has a shot. The fact that things beyond his and the character's control screwed it up is not fair to him or Superman.


Yeah the blame for Cavill's poor showing falls on Snyder imo. He wanted a miserable Superman. 




> I think *they need to scrap the DCEU in the sense of wanting things to connect, and just concentrate on making good films ala WW and let things fall and connect into place naturally*. They're not catching Marvel up at all now no way, seeing the scale of IW and it's success  and the poor BO performance of JL, no point trying now. I'd rather see separate stories being told that may occasionally bleed into one another.


That is literally their plan. Aquaman, Shazam, WW2, and whatever comes next will mostly stand on their own. There's no JL2 planned for a while and that's good because the brand was severely damaged. Eventually we might get JL2 with the Legion of Doom but it's not happening anytime soon.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah the blame for Cavill's poor showing falls on Snyder imo. He wanted a miserable Superman.


I wouldn't call DCEU Clark miserable at all, but the arc that sounded good on paper (grounded take on Superman struggling to find his place in the world and evolving into the character we know and love) wasn't executed well. It could have maybe been done in more competent hands/less studio interference, but we got what we got. 

I still like DCEU Clark a lot, at least in MOS, but man we should have gotten to SEE him evolve into his JL personality (sans hideous CGI face) in a second solo film rather than the team up movie with his personality being flipped like a light switch.

Hopefully his campaign to get a MOS2 with the MI6 director pans out. Don't reduce him to cameo roles, which is just a sad way to use him or (just as bad) have him overshadow the character whose film he is appearing in.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

could someone thell me  why the Marvel heroes, can be as morally grey as they want, even to the point to be  jerks, at least in the comics, and their flaws are part of  their appeal, bt if Superman is not pukin rainbows  and unicorns there is riot.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> could someone thell me  why the Marvel heroes, can be as morally grey as they want, even to the point to be  jerks, at least in the comics, and their flaws are part of  their appeal, bt if Superman is not pukin rainbows  and unicorns there is riot.


Marvel heroes were designed that way back in the Silver Age, and DC characters were not. The two universe being different adds more flavor. And Superman can have flaws, and in fact many versions do, it just wasn't as in-your-face as Marvel's heroes or the DCEU version. 

I used to be fine with DCEU Superman, and am still fine with MOS for the most part, but the main problem is that it was done extremely poorly. The arc sounded good on paper, but in hindsight it really DID need a MOS2 to flesh him out more, deal with the consequences of MOS, and move away in a lighter direction in a more natural way. Instead, they doubled down on the darkness in BvS, _cut out a lot of Clark's scenes_, and then suddenly told Cavill to start playing him like Silver Age Superman post-resurrection in the last act of a shitty team up movie. 

Wonder Woman showed Diana as complex but didn't feel the need to go overly dark with it. They embraced the character for who she was and did it in a competent way (barring the weak third act with Ares), *and people ate that shit up*. And the humor and darkness of the various situations were balanced well, unlike a lot of MCU humor. This boils down to Jenkins being a more competent storyteller than Snyder, and if she's going to go darker in the sequels, she's earned the trust of the audience by making them love Diana first.

----------


## TheSeaDragon

well, you soundd more reasonable than a lot of people

In Snyders defense, Superman is not easy, a lot, and i mean a lot of  people havet this idea that he is boring. Im not sure that the perfect Superman movie that, not you, but most Snyder haters imagine would win todays audience over.

----------


## reni344

There is a podcast I listen too called Geek History Lesson recently they did an episode on Silver Age Superman, and the hosts bring up an interesting point that most on-screen Superman adaptations have a Silver Age feel to them. They argue Man of Steel is more Golden Age Superman. Many people said that was not Superman I would argue is Superman but a golden age version that we don't often see anymore. I would urge anyone interested to watch that Podcast the host is a huge Superman fan.

----------


## Black_Adam

You can make a Superman who is serious yet still optimistic, hopeful and inspires others, hell that is pretty much the modern Superman we have in Rebirth now. So bored of this idea of him having to be conflicted or turning his back on humanity.




> Hopefully, D.C. will make a great use of Black Adam in the future. He has everything to be as memorable as Thanos, in his way, being so complex, evil but yet so understandable that he too, could be awesome. And the Rock would be the perfect Black Adam, so D.C. better uses him well...


Agreed, I reread The Dark Age the other day and think it would be the perfect template for an Adam movie, could even have some fun with it and show Teth-Adam reacting to the modern world. Just give it a better ending (don't me started on Faust assaulting Isis still makes me mad just thinking about). Also I think injecting The Rock into the DCEU would go along way to revitalising general public interest in DC Films.

----------


## RepHope

> could someone thell me  why the Marvel heroes, can be as morally grey as they want, even to the point to be  jerks, at least in the comics, and their flaws are part of  their appeal, bt if Superman is not pukin rainbows  and unicorns there is riot.


He wasn't just _flawed_, he was weak, and Snyder kept repeating the same arc with him over and over. "Do I want to be a hero?" "Yeah I guess I do". Add in some terrible choices like giving him less lines in BvS than Spider-Man got in CW, using my most hated cliche of Lois being the only thing keeping him good and he's evil without her, and Snyder lost me. I could not have cared less when he died in BvS, all I could think of is that it might have been better for him to stay dead than to see Snyder's "arc" play out.

Edit: Also Snyder wanted to have his cake and eat it. He wanted to deconstruct the character but also have aspects of a "normal" Superman. So Superman kills Zod because that's realistic (I did not have a problem with the killing to be clear), but he's also the same "bringer of hope" despite how utterly dour and unhappy he looks saving people, and the fact that all three of the Snyder villains are directly or indirectly his fault, so the world would arguably be better off if he had never shown up. Nolan built Batman up in Begins before pulling him down in TDK. Snyder didn't do that.

----------


## Agent Z

> He wasn't just _flawed_, he was weak, and Snyder kept repeating the same arc with him over and over. "Do I want to be a hero?" "Yeah I guess I do". Add in some terrible choices like giving him less lines in BvS than Spider-Man got in CW, using my most hated cliche of Lois being the only thing keeping him good and he's evil without her, and Snyder lost me. I could not have cared less when he died in BvS, all I could think of is that it might have been better for him to stay dead than to see Snyder's "arc" play out.
> 
> Edit: Also Snyder wanted to have his cake and eat it. He wanted to deconstruct the character but also have aspects of a "normal" Superman. So Superman kills Zod because that's realistic (I did not have a problem with the killing to be clear), but he's also the same "bringer of hope" despite how utterly dour and unhappy he looks saving people, and the fact that all three of the Snyder villains are directly or indirectly his fault, so the world would arguably be better off if he had never shown up. Nolan built Batman up in Begins before pulling him down in TDK. Snyder didn't do that.


Snyder didn't repeat the same arc with him. His arc in MoS is finding out who he is and worrying about potential exposure. BvS had him dealing with the fall out of this exposure. Not smiling like an imbecile all the time does not equal misery. 

I thought we weren't supposed to blame the hero for the villains' actions?

----------


## Carabas

> There is a podcast I listen too called Geek History Lesson recently they did an episode on Silver Age Superman, and the hosts bring up an interesting point that most on-screen Superman adaptations have a Silver Age feel to them. They argue Man of Steel is more Golden Age Superman. Many people said that was not Superman I would argue is Superman but a golden age version that we don't often see anymore. I would urge anyone interested to watch that Podcast the host is a huge Superman fan.


I don't see any golden age influences at all in Man Of Steel. I see 90's grimdark Image superheroes influences.
If anything the comics version of Superman is perhaps the most like Snyder's in tone is the Superman from Brian Azzarello and Jim Lee's For Tomorrow.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> There is a podcast I listen too called Geek History Lesson recently they did an episode on Silver Age Superman, and the hosts bring up an interesting point that most on-screen Superman adaptations have a Silver Age feel to them. They argue Man of Steel is more Golden Age Superman. Many people said that was not Superman I would argue is Superman but a golden age version that we don't often see anymore. I would urge anyone interested to watch that Podcast the host is a huge Superman fan.


I see some golden age superman in Man of Steel at least when he messed up that guys truck for harassing that woman server.

----------


## Robotman

> well, you soundd more reasonable than a lot of people
> 
> In Snyders defense, Superman is not easy, a lot, and i mean a lot of  people havet this idea that he is boring. Im not sure that the perfect Superman movie that, not you, but most Snyder haters imagine would win todays audience over.


Superman shouldn’t be a difficult character to adapt. The idea of a truly altruistic being is a beautiful concept. Someone who helps because he has the power to help. He’s not doing it for revenge or out of guilt or religious obligations. He helps because its the right thing to do. I think it’s sad that so many people don’t get Superman or think of him as “boring”. Someone hand these people a copy of All Star Superman!

I liked the fact that MoS focused on Superman as a symbol of hope. It’s not just the hope that Superman will save us. It’s the hope that “we can join him in the sun” and one day become selfless and all around better people. I just wish the Snyderverse would have done a better job of displaying this message instead of just saying it over and over. As others have said, if we would have gotten a true MoS sequel then maybe they could have accomplished that. 





> I don't see any golden age influences at all in Man Of Steel. I see 90's grimdark Image superheroes influences.
> If anything the comics version of Superman is perhaps the most like Snyder's in tone is the Superman from Brian Azzarello and Jim Lee's For Tomorrow.


Yeah I don’t see any Golden Age Superman influences in MoS. Except maybe their penchant for destroying buildings and public property. GA Superman was fond of smashing through walls, but he never took down a whole building. Also, GA Supes was pretty brash. There wasn’t any signs of the depressed “what is my place in the world” stuff found in MoS.

----------


## Robotman

After watching Infinity War, like a lot of fans i immediately thought “well that’s the end of Darkseid. Thanos has destroyed any chance of him on the big screen.” 

But besides a similar appearance they actually have very different motivations and characterizations. Without giving any plot away, I can say that Thanos was very humanized in IW (which made it even better!). If Darkseid ever makes it into a movie they should go in the opposite direction. full on interdimentional god of evil like his portrayal in Final Crisis or The Great Darkness Saga. A pure force of nature. There are still a lot of ways to make him very different from Thanos. Sadly I just don’t see WB being able to pull it off. If the New Gods movie (which I’m pessimistic about its chances of even being made) takes some cues from the current Mister Miracle book, Darkseid’s presence could be felt even if he’s not appearing on the page. 

Every bit of fear, hatred, anger, self-doubt. Darkseid Is.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Wonder what she's doing?


She is searching the Lost Ark.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I think Diana is in a temple to see paintings that depict the history of the mother boxes (a painting of what looks like mother boxes is behind her).

Judging by her appearance must be a follow-up to this scene...

----------


## Korath

> well, you soundd more reasonable than a lot of people
> 
> In Snyders defense, Superman is not easy, a lot, and i mean a lot of  people havet this idea that he is boring. Im not sure that the perfect Superman movie that, not you, but most Snyder haters imagine would win todays audience over.


Well, if Cavill must play Superman like he did in JL, I sure as hell won't come out to see his movies. His character was, very sadly, detrimental to the JL, undermining all the other heroes, either because Whedon/Warner didn't know what to do with Superman in a team up, or, worse, to appease the very vocal peoples clamoring for a recreation of Superman the movie in the DCEU. That way, they have pleased no one, and it's a poor preview of what they appear to have in mind; i.e. a boring and very bland character saving the day, smiling and cracking jokes at all time, making the reste of the League useless in the movies. It was a terrible move, and hopefully, JL's depiction of Superman will be left to rot in the future movie(s?) he'll have.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Well, if Cavill must play Superman like he did in JL, I sure as hell won't come out to see his movies. His character was, very sadly, detrimental to the JL, undermining all the other heroes, either because Whedon/Warner didn't know what to do with Superman in a team up, or, worse, to appease the very vocal peoples clamoring for a recreation of Superman the movie in the DCEU. That way, they have pleased no one, and it's a poor preview of what they appear to have in mind; i.e. a boring and very bland character saving the day, smiling and cracking jokes at all time, making the reste of the League useless in the movies. It was a terrible move, and hopefully, JL's depiction of Superman will be left to rot in the future movie(s?) he'll have.


Point. Movie stripped all the interesting things that Superman had going for him in MoS/BvS. Sad thing what we got in JL is that is what a lot people wanted for their DCEU Superman form the start...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> There is a podcast I listen too called Geek History Lesson recently they did an episode on Silver Age Superman, and the hosts bring up an interesting point that most on-screen Superman adaptations have a Silver Age feel to them. They argue Man of Steel is more Golden Age Superman. Many people said that was not Superman I would argue is Superman but a golden age version that we don't often see anymore. I would urge anyone interested to watch that Podcast the host is a huge Superman fan.


I really didn't see any Golden Age Superman except for the below example from Gemini. New 52 Superman is Golden Age like; this was more like Byrne put through a Frank Miller filter. 




> I see some golden age superman in Man of Steel at least when he messed up that guys truck for harassing that woman server.





> Well, if Cavill must play Superman like he did in JL, I sure as hell won't come out to see his movies. His character was, very sadly, detrimental to the JL, undermining all the other heroes, either because Whedon/Warner didn't know what to do with Superman in a team up, or, worse, to appease the very vocal peoples clamoring for a recreation of Superman the movie in the DCEU. That way, they have pleased no one, and it's a poor preview of what they appear to have in mind; i.e. a boring and very bland character saving the day, smiling and cracking jokes at all time, making the reste of the League useless in the movies. It was a terrible move, and hopefully, JL's depiction of Superman will be left to rot in the future movie(s?) he'll have.


Cavill playing Superman like he did in JL is either what they should have done from the beginning, or built towards in a more natural way in a solo film. The fact that the portrayal of DCEU Superman up until now has not been well received by the majority but this was one of the few well received elements of an otherwise terrible movie (CGI face memes aside) says it all. They should move on from the previous films and run with this from now on, just give it to a more competent director and leave said director the hell alone in the editing room. NOT pursuing this with an actor who is still well liked and who doesn't want to leave and is actually campaigning to get a new film made with a director who is willing would be one of the dumbest moves they can make. 

They can, and have, portray Superman exactly like this and not undermine the rest of the JL. The best comics usually have an easy time doing it, there is no reason to think they can't because JL sucked. And of the assembled League members, only Diana was a threat to him in any way and how much she got nerfed is up for debate.

----------


## Korath

Aquaman is more than able to hold his own against Superman, especially with his trident in comics. Flash is also powerful enough to be a danger for the Man of Steel. None of this was displayed in the movie. Kal-El crushed the whole JL; dealt with Steppenwolf as if he was a simple child bothering other kids and ruined Barry's whole arc toward heroism in the movie with this incredibly stupid "carrying a building's" scene. Superman was a burden for the movie, because it dragged its feet and failed to portray the characters as competent because it was decided that they couldn't hold their own against one New God  without Superman, which is stupid. Darkseid require the whole League to be dealt with, but Steppenwolf isn't so powerful than Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Flash and Cyborg, with some tactical help from Batman, couldn't handle him. 

And if you think that audiences actually want to see a full movie of this kind of Superman, I think you are in the wrong. Superman Return tried to channel this and it failed, and i'm feeling quite certain that a movie based on what we saw of Superman in JL would fail too, if only because such a character possess nothing inspiring or interesting to hook the attention. Sure, he can have pretty great action scenes and what not. But I find it a little sad that the "style over substance" has been thrown at Snyder for his two DCEU movies and yet it's what fans of "iconic" Superman wants for the character's future in the silver screen : style over any kind of substance, stories of Superman saving cats in trees and generally displaying a lack of flaws or weaknesses which doesn't make him endearing but terribly land and unidimensional.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Aquaman is more than able to hold his own against Superman, especially with his trident in comics. Flash is also powerful enough to be a danger for the Man of Steel. None of this was displayed in the movie. Kal-El crushed the whole JL; dealt with Steppenwolf as if he was a simple child bothering other kids and ruined Barry's whole arc toward heroism in the movie with this incredibly stupid "carrying a building's" scene. Superman was a burden for the movie, because it dragged its feet and failed to portray the characters as competent because it was decided that they couldn't hold their own against one New God  without Superman, which is stupid. Darkseid require the whole League to be dealt with, but Steppenwolf isn't so powerful than Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Flash and Cyborg, with some tactical help from Batman, couldn't handle him.


Superman has had to be powered down over the years in order for others like Aquaman to catch up to him. And even then, there is no popular perception among the casuals that Aquaman is in anyway a threat to Superman. They are not going to judge Aquaman harshly for losing because they don't expect him to win, and will turn out for his movie if it is good. It's also not like he knows what to expect when facing a Kryptonian.

That applies to Barry as well, a fully experienced Barry WOULD be a threat to Superman, but he's barely experienced with his powers in this. In his own words, he pushes people and runs away.  




> And if you think that audiences actually want to see a full movie of this kind of Superman, I think you are in the wrong. Superman Return tried to channel this and it failed, and i'm feeling quite certain that a movie based on what we saw of Superman in JL would fail too, if only because such a character possess nothing inspiring or interesting to hook the attention. Sure, he can have pretty great action scenes and what not. But I find it a little sad that the "style over substance" has been thrown at Snyder for his two DCEU movies and yet it's what fans of "iconic" Superman wants for the character's future in the silver screen : style over any kind of substance, stories of Superman saving cats in trees and generally displaying a lack of flaws or weaknesses which doesn't make him endearing but terribly land and unidimensional.


Superman Returns didn't do well because it was an unremarkable movie that didn't tread any new ground. Looking at the poor reception of DCEU Superman so far, they don't want that either. They just want a good movie. 

That seems like a strawman argument, one that I have admittedly used in the past as well in defending DCEU Superman, but really after JL I'm out of patience. The journey wasn't worth it. Those arguing for a more classic, less dour Superman are not asking for lack of substance. It's debatable if the movies as they are even have substance as a whole package. The stories about the Superman you don't like have PLENTY of substance, they just either don't do much for you are your are just flat out not interested in engaging with it.

----------


## RepHope

You guys know Snyder’s the one who filmed the majority of that idiotic fight scene with Supes and the League right? He’s the one who had the brilliant idea to make the League look like chumps. I’m positive he had Supes melting people with his heat vision when he first returned because that’s the edgy crap he loves. Why was that scene not given to Steppenwolf? It would’ve helped establish him as a major threat.

But this goes back to the major flaw in Snyder’s JL: He didn’t bother to build the others up before throwing them all together. When people go to see a JL movie they want to see the characters at their peak, fighting together. Instead Snyder tried to cram everyone’s origin stories into a movie about the League coming together, while at the same time bringing Superman back. Even a good storyteller would’ve struggled with all that, and Snyder is not a good storyteller. It’s the same damn mistake he made in BvS, and why he should’ve been let go before filming even started. Now we wait to see if this universe can be salvaged.

----------


## Korath

I fail to see how this scene could be Snyder when the whole choreography smells of Whedon. Do you have any proof that it is Snyder who directed it, because it is most definitively not one of those, who were epic and very obvious in the movie (the Steppenwolf vs Amazon chase, for instance). And Snyder is a great storyteller, BvS is definitive proof of that, being so packed with great characterizations, evolutions, snippets explaining why every major player thought and acted as they did... that general audience failed to notice because it has become used to everything being spoonfed or even absent in major blockbuster is not on Zack Snyder, it's on the peoples for not making the minimum of efforts required to understand what was offered to them. Even in the theatrical cut.

----------


## Agent Z

> You guys know Snyder’s the one who filmed the majority of that idiotic fight scene with Supes and the League right? He’s the one who had the brilliant idea to make the League look like chumps. I’m positive he had Supes melting people with his heat vision when he first returned because that’s the edgy crap he loves. Why was that scene not given to Steppenwolf? It would’ve helped establish him as a major threat.
> 
> But this goes back to the major flaw in Snyder’s JL: He didn’t bother to build the others up before throwing them all together. When people go to see a JL movie they want to see the characters at their peak, fighting together. Instead Snyder tried to cram everyone’s origin stories into a movie about the League coming together, while at the same time bringing Superman back. Even a good storyteller would’ve struggled with all that, and Snyder is not a good storyteller. It’s the same damn mistake he made in BvS, and why he should’ve been let go before filming even started. Now we wait to see if this universe can be salvaged.


Snyder was going to have WW kill Steppenwolf according to some reports. He also did not throw the other members under the bus to make Superman look better in BvS. Where did you hear he directed the fight with the League? And proof he would have had Superman melting people? You can hate the guy all you like but how about avoid accusing him of crap you have no proof for.


Hell moments ago, you were complaining Snyder made Superman too weak. Now you think he'd go out of his way to dial up his power to make everyone else irrelevant? If anything, Snyder's been consistent at not making everyone else look pathetic so Superman can look better even with the military in MoS.

----------


## RepHope

> Snyder was going to have WW kill Steppenwolf according to some reports. He also did not throw the other members under the bus to make Superman look better in BvS. Where did you hear he directed the fight with the League? And proof he would have had Superman melting people? You can hate the guy all you like but how about avoid accusing him of crap you have no proof for.


In one of the earlier trailers Cyborg saves a cop from a burning car. I’m going to guess that was from Snyder’s Ressurection scene. I’m positive the level of destruction Snyder had was much, MUCH greater than what we evantually got. They reshot that scene after all because of how dark and edgy Snyder’s initial movie was.

----------


## Agent Z

> In one of the earlier trailers Cyborg saves a cop from a burning truck. I’m positive the level of destruction Snyder had was much, MUCH greater than what we evantually got. They reshot that scene after all because of how dark and edgy Snyder’s initial movie was.


Again, were is the proof you have of this? What does Cyborg saving a cop from a burning truck have to do with this? Wouldn't that be evidence Snyder was toning _down_ the destruction since apparently the heroes didn't save anyone in his previous movies?

Hell, has it even been confirmed just how dark the initial movie was? We haven't seen the original cut and given how overdone the humor was in JL, I'm willing to bet it wasn't even that dark but WB panicked as usual.

----------


## Korath

> In one of the earlier trailers Cyborg saves a cop from a burning car. I’m going to guess that was from Snyder’s Ressurection scene. I’m positive the level of destruction Snyder had was much, MUCH greater than what we evantually got. They reshot that scene after all because of how dark and edgy Snyder’s initial movie was.


If Cyborg had had the time to deal with saving a cop while saving Superman, it's pretty clear that Supes wouldn't have been trashing the League so much that all hands would have to be on deck to deal with it. Plus, it could have been the result of Steppenwolf actually attacking from the heart of a city, instead of very conveniently attacking some sort of closed nuclear central in Russia, even such a poor choice of location could be on Snyder, considering the early trailers.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Btw, Snyder filmed the Superman vs JL fight, you can see him in the bts of the scene...

----------


## RepHope

> Again, were is the proof you have of this? What does Cyborg saving a cop from a burning truck have to do with this? Wouldn't that be evidence Snyder was toning _down_ the destruction since apparently the heroes didn't save anyone in his previous movies?
> 
> Hell, has it even been confirmed just how dark the initial movie was? We haven't seen the original cut and given how overdone the humor was in JL, I'm willing to bet it wasn't even that dark but WB panicked as usual.


How do you know his movie would’ve been better than Whedon’s? He certainly doesn’t have a better average critical score or commercial sales rate to back up that claim, yet Snyder stans scream it from the mountaintops. I’m willing to bet his “Cut” would’ve bombed harder than Whedon’s.

----------


## Agent Z

> How do you know his movie would’ve been better than Whedon’s? He certainly doesn’t have a better average critical score or commercial sales rate to back up that claim, yet Snyder stans scream it from the mountaintops. I’m willing to bet his “Cut” would’ve bombed harder than Whedon’s.


I never said it would have been better than Whedon's. I just said it wouldn't have been as dark as you claim.

But if you want to blame everything and the plague on Snyder be my guest.

----------


## RepHope

> Btw, Snyder filmed the Superman vs JL fight, you can see him in the bts of the sequence...


There you go.

----------


## RepHope

> I don't worship at the altar of Whedon nor am I blind to how Whedon's output has been going down the drain since Buffy and Angel ended. After all, I saw AoU.


What makes you think I do? Avengers and AoU were both terrible. Neither one holds up at all. But Whedon has a much better track rate for mainstream success while Snyder’s success comes from either remaking movies (Dawn of the Dead) or adapting comics pretty much panel for panel (300 and Watchmen). His original work is godawful (Sucker Punch), And he made that terrible Owl movie, Guardians of whatever before he got MoS.

This idea that he would’ve BTFO of all the “haters” that Snyder fans like to claim with JL is ludicrous. Far more likely that JL would’ve bombed even harder had his cut been released.

----------


## Korath

> How do you know his movie would’ve been better than Whedon’s? He certainly doesn’t have a better average critical score or commercial sales rate to back up that claim, yet Snyder stans scream it from the mountaintops. I’m willing to bet his “Cut” would’ve bombed harder than Whedon’s.


The thing is, there is no Whedon cut. There is a hacked and butchered movies where the parts directed by two peoples so different crash into each others and make the movie enjoyable to watch once, but extremely forgettable. That's why it didn't make as much movie as Suicide Squad, were a part of it was probably due to the fact that some peoples (like me) told others that it was a train wreck of epic proportion, something which can attract some viewers. But the fact that Whedon thought that it was great to have the flash fall on Diana's boobs should be proof enough that his works wouldn't tonally work with the DCEU. Either JL should have been put on hold long enough for Snyder to come back and finish it, or it should have been given enough time for Whedon to redo the whole movie. Barring that, another director, more suited to Snyder's style and touch should have been picked over Whedon.

----------


## Agent Z

> What makes you think I do? Avengers and AoU were both terrible. Neither one holds up at all. But Whedon has a much better track rate for mainstream success while Snyder’s success comes from either remaking movies (Dawn of the Dead) or adapting comics pretty much panel for panel (300 and Watchmen). His original work is godawful (Sucker Punch), And he made that terrible Owl movie, Guardians of whatever before he got MoS.
> 
> This idea that he would’ve BTFO of all the “haters” that Snyder fans like to claim with JL is ludicrous. Far more likely that JL would’ve bombed even harder had his cut been released.


Whedon's track record for mainstream success comes from Buffy and Angel. Firefly is a racist, sexist mess whose cancellation was a blessing to television and the less I speak of Dollhouse and Cabin in The Woods the saner I feel.

His Owl movie got a 50% score from critics and 63% from audiences on RT. You didn't like it. Others didn't. MoS got a far better reception that you care to admit.

----------


## RepHope

> The thing is, there is no Whedon cut. There is a hacked and butchered movies where the parts directed by two peoples so different crash into each others and make the movie enjoyable to watch once, but extremely forgettable. That's why it didn't make as much movie as Suicide Squad, were a part of it was probably due to the fact that some peoples (like me) told others that it was a train wreck of epic proportion, something which can attract some viewers. But the fact that Whedon thought that it was great to have the flash fall on Diana's boobs should be proof enough that his works wouldn't tonally work with the DCEU. Either JL should have been put on hold long enough for Snyder to come back and finish it, or it should have been given enough time for Whedon to redo the whole movie. Barring that, another director, more suited to Snyder's style and touch should have been picked over Whedon.


Fair enough, you make a solid point. I would argue that Snyder should’ve been removed from JL after BvS underperformed, But WB was so stupid they didn’t even bother to wait for it to come out before they greenlighted JL. I also was not a fan of WW’s characterization from Whedon, but I also loathed Snyder’s Flash in JL. So neither director made me happy. Bah what an utter mess this franchise has been.

I do think we’re on the cusp of a comeback though. I believe Aquaman, Shazam, and WW2 will all be good. Assuming Reeves can actually get moving on Batman I’m excited for that as well.

----------


## Agent Z

> What makes you think I do? Avengers and AoU were both terrible. Neither one holds up at all. But Whedon has a much better track rate for mainstream success while Snyders success comes from either remaking movies (Dawn of the Dead) or adapting comics pretty much panel for panel (300 and Watchmen). His original work is godawful (Sucker Punch), And he made that terrible Owl movie, Guardians of whatever before he got MoS.
> 
> This idea that he wouldve BTFO of all the haters that Snyder fans like to claim with JL is ludicrous. Far more likely that JL wouldve bombed even harder had his cut been released.


Whedon's track record for mainstream success comes from Buffy and Angel. Firefly is a racist, sexist mess whose cancellation was a blessing to television and the less I speak of Dollhouse and Cabin in The Woods the saner I feel.

His Owl movie got a 50% score from critics and 63% from audiences on RT. You didn't like it. Others didn't. MoS got a far better reception that you care to admit.

You're responding to an argument I'm not making. I don't know what we'd have gotten from Snyder. I know what we got from Whedon or rather what WB allowed us to get from Whedon and I didn't like it. Plain and simple. Read into that what you will.

----------


## RepHope

> Whedon's track record for mainstream success comes from Buffy and Angel. Firefly is a racist, sexist mess whose cancellation was a blessing to television and the less I speak of Dollhouse and Cabin in The Woods the saner I feel.
> 
> His Owl movie got a 50% score from critics and 63% from audiences on RT. You didn't like it. Others didn't. MoS got a far better reception that you care to admit.


MoS got a 55% last I checked, so not much better, but I actually like MoS. Snyder’s Zod is better than anyone else’s Zod. MoS Lois was good too. It’s BvS that completely lost me.

----------


## Korath

> Fair enough, you make a solid point. I would argue that Snyder should’ve been removed from JL after BvS underperformed, But WB was so stupid they didn’t even bother to wait for it to come out before they greenlighted JL. I also was not a fan of WW’s characterization from Whedon, but I also loathed Snyder’s Flash in JL. So neither director made me happy. Bah what an utter mess this franchise has been.
> 
> I do think we’re on the cusp of a comeback though. I believe Aquaman, Shazam, and WW2 will all be good. Assuming Reeves can actually get moving on Batman I’m excited for that as well.


I hope you're right, even if I hope that by now, WB has realized that their characters aren't Marvel's and that copying the MCU won't do any good to them. Build up your own franchise, with its own tone (more in line with WW, where the movie was serious but had lighter moments which made sense, instead of the tension breaking jokes were so common (even if IW mostly managed to avoid it, to my own surprise, which made it a lot more enjoyable). Light doesn't have to mean dumb.

----------


## RepHope

> I hope you're right, even if I hope that by now, WB has realized that their characters aren't Marvel's and that copying the MCU won't do any good to them. Build up your own franchise, with its own tone (more in line with WW, where the movie was serious but had lighter moments which made sense, instead of the tension breaking jokes were so common (even if IW mostly managed to avoid it, to my own surprise, which made it a lot more enjoyable). Light doesn't have to mean dumb.


I foresee Jenkins WW being the blueprint for movies going forward. Some movies will be lighter, probably Shazam for example. Some will be darker like Reeves Batman. But WW will be the movie they look to for guidance. If you liked that movie you will probably enjoy the DCEU going forward. If not then you're going to be disappointed.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I imagine a pure Whedon film from start to finish would be better than a pure Snyder film, but not by much. The DCEU is probably much better off without either one of them going forward.

----------


## Gaastra

"Deadpool?" "I'm not Deadpool! Why does everyone call me Deadpool?  I came out before him!" "No i'm pretty sure your Deadpool."

Also poor atom.

----------


## reni344

> "Deadpool?" "I'm not Deadpool! Why does everyone call me Deadpool?  I came out before him!" "No i'm pretty sure your Deadpool."
> 
> Also poor atom.


I'm going to be honest I thought this was really funny I might go see the movie now

----------


## Frontier

> "Deadpool?" "I'm not Deadpool! Why does everyone call me Deadpool?  I came out before him!" "No i'm pretty sure your Deadpool."
> 
> Also poor atom.


The _Teen Titans Go!_ version of the Titans trying to get a Will Arnet-voiced Deathstroke to take them seriously and be their Archenemy is like the most perfect premise ever  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Robotman

> "Deadpool?" "I'm not Deadpool! Why does everyone call me Deadpool?  I came out before him!" "No i'm pretty sure your Deadpool."
> 
> Also poor atom.


This actually looks kind..*****ny. Huh.

----------


## Assam

> This actually looks kind..*****ny. Huh.


Yeah, every episode of the show I've seen I've thought was terrible, but this actually looks pretty good.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I imagine a pure Whedon film from start to finish would be better than a pure Snyder film, but not by much. The DCEU is probably much better off without either one of them going forward.


It depends on personal preferences. Whedon's shtick is as off-putting to some folks as Snyder's thing is to some people. His characteristic "tone" is also all wrong for DC. At least Snyder established some grandiose visuals befitting of epic DC stories and characters (even if the actual meat to compliment that imagery was seldom present).

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Also poor atom.


At least he's actually featuring in a mainstream movie!

----------


## Carabas

> It depends on personal preferences. Whedon's shtick is as off-putting to some folks as Snyder's thing is to some people. His characteristic "tone" is also all wrong for DC.


Not so much wrong for DC in a general sense, but very wrong for a follow-up to Dawn Of Justice.

----------


## Agent Z

> Not so much wrong for DC in a general sense, but very wrong for a follow-up to Dawn Of Justice.


His comments on Barbara Gordon as "damaged" and the Wonder Woman script he wrote that was rejected are pretty strong arguments that he is not fit for DC in any general sense.

----------


## Confuzzled

> His comments on Barbara Gordon as "damaged" and the Wonder Woman script he wrote that was rejected are pretty strong arguments that he is not fir for DC in any general sense.


More telling is that going by his Infinity War premiere interviews, he still can't see what's wrong with a script that has stuff like Diana doing a sexy slave dance to seduce/distract a bad guy.

----------


## dswynne

> Having just watched Infinity War, I'm increasingly convinced that DC should have started with (a different version of) a Justice League film, rather than trying to do a second-hand, rushed version of the MCU strategy.
> 
> Imagine starting the DC film universe with something like Infinity War — or, basically, a version of a "Crisis" movie with the Justice League.
> 
> Watching Infinity War, I kept thinking of how this could have been a JL movie.
> 
> Thanos = Darkseid
> Thanos's children = Orion / Mister Miracle
> Iron Man = Batman
> ...


They should have started with the classic JLA story featuring STARRO, then tie it Darkseid as some sort of test, to see if Earth is worth "harvesting".  Then, you can have Steppenwolf be the main villain in a second film (connecting with Intergang and other elements of the New Gods), and then Darkseid and the New Gods show up (a retelling of the Darkseid War).  BTW, Steppenwolf would be based on Earth-2's Steppenwolf, not CGI-monster man.

----------


## Darkseid Is

All I thought of was Squidward in Infinity War as Glorious Godfrey.

----------


## Confuzzled

> All I thought of was Squidward in Infinity War as Glorious Godfrey.


He's more of a DeSaad analogy.

----------


## Agent Z

> He's more of a DeSaad analogy.


Didn't the Smallville version of Dessad also have telekinesis?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Didn't the Smallville version of Dessad also have telekinesis?


Yup, and he could also make people bleed from their facial orifices, a slightly more gruesome version of how Ebony Maw was torturing Strange in the movie (shown in the trailer so not technically a spoiler).

In the comics, Maw debuted a couple of years after DeSaad's stint on _Smallville_.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> He's more of a DeSaad analogy.


He looks more like Desaad but how he talked about how they were saved by the great Titan and the words he used like rejoice and suffering and salvation. The religious imagery felt a lot like more Glorious Godfrey to me.

----------


## Confuzzled

> He looks more like Desaad but how he talked about how they were saved by the great Titan and the words he used like rejoice and suffering and salvation. The religious imagery felt a lot like more Glorious Godfrey to me.


DeSaad used religious phrases in _Smallville_ too.

On a related note, I actually think the Black Order were very rushed and underutilized so the New Gods don't have to worry of being beaten to the punch, especially if they are getting their very own movie(s).

----------


## Darkseid Is

> DeSaad used religious phrases in _Smallville_ too.
> 
> On a related note, I actually think the Black Order were very rushed and underutilized so the New Gods don't have to worry of being beaten to the punch, especially if they are getting their very own movie(s).


I never watched Smallville so maybe they took elements of both characters.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Infinity War-inspired memes...  :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> DeSaad used religious phrases in _Smallville_ too.
> 
> On a related note, I actually think the Black Order were very rushed and underutilized so the New Gods don't have to worry of being beaten to the punch, especially if they are getting their very own movie(s).


Well, the New Gods in their own movie would very likely have much more time afforded too and developing all of them then the Black Order had in a very crowded Superhero movie. 

But with all the New Gods characters I would think it a daunting prospect to be able to give every character their due in a single movie.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Well, the New Gods in their own movie would very likely have much more time afforded too and developing all of them then the Black Order had in a very crowded Superhero movie. 
> 
> But with all the New Gods characters I would think it a daunting prospect to be able to give every character their due in a single movie.


Yeah, I think it would be a better idea to just focus on the Apokolips half for the first film, maybe with a crucial, if smaller, role for Orion.

----------


## Gaastra

> Well, the New Gods in their own movie would very likely have much more time afforded too and developing all of them then the Black Order had in a very crowded Superhero movie. 
> 
> But with all the New Gods characters I would think it a daunting prospect to be able to give every character their due in a single movie.


We had a new gods movie.  It's called masters of the universe. (they even talk about it on the dvd that they were making a new gods movie with he-man.)

----------


## Confuzzled

Yeah, totally see MotU being inspired by _New Gods_ (same for _Mad Max_).

Once or twice I've even thought about how Eternia could totally replace New Genesis as Apokolips's rival planet. And Castle Grayskull being the point of origin of The Source.

Anyway, hoping the NG film takes places almost entirely on Apokolips/New Genesis unlike the MotU film which took place almost entirely on Earth.

----------


## Hawkman

Watched _Justice League_ for the first time on Blu-ray last night (fourth time in total), and it was even better than I remember it. Yes, it has its faults, and I'll always wonder how it might have turned out "if only," but I still find the film very enjoyable overall. I really don't understand why it didn't do better than it did.

About the only thing I'd classify as sub-par is the musical score. The whole time I was watching it, I couldn't help but wonder how much better this scene or that would've presented had Zimmer been brought back to compose instead.

----------


## Styles

'Wonder Woman 2' to film at Alexandria's dead Landmark Mall

----------


## Lightning Rider

> 'Wonder Woman 2' to film at Alexandria's dead Landmark Mall


Cool. So the 80's huh? I thought they'd go 60's/70's for the Cold War, the sexual revolution, Vietnam, worldwide revolutions, etc.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Yeah, totally see MotU being inspired by _New Gods_ (same for _Mad Max_).
> 
> Once or twice I've even thought about how Eternia could totally replace New Genesis as Apokolips's rival planet. And Castle Grayskull being the point of origin of The Source.
> 
> Anyway, hoping the NG film takes places almost entirely on Apokolips/New Genesis unlike the MotU film which took place almost entirely on Earth.


I knew about SW and MotU but Mad Max as well? Wow. Btw what is recommended New Gods reading or better phrased are there some nice collections?

----------


## Carabas

> I knew about SW and MotU but Mad Max as well? Wow. Btw what is recommended New Gods reading or better phrased are there some nice collections?


Basically just Kirby, Walt Simonson's Orion, Morrison's 7 Soldiers Of Victory and Final Crisis. 
Absolutely avoid Starlin.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Cool. So the 80's huh? I thought they'd go 60's/70's for the Cold War, the sexual revolution, Vietnam, worldwide revolutions, etc.


Other than 'Nam, all of those things were mega prominent in the 80's cultural landscape too.

A pity Etta has already been used in the 1910's. A younger version of her would have totally fit that poppy 80's Madonna/Go Go's aesthetic.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Other than 'Nam, all of those things were mega prominent in the 80's cultural landscape too.
> 
> A pity Etta has already been used in the 1910's. A younger version of her would have totally fit that poppy 80's Madonna/Go Go's aesthetic.


Maybe WW2 will introduce Vanessa Kapatelis, to set her up as Silver Swan for the main villain of Wonder Woman 3?

(aside from Raimi's Spider-Man films, what was the last superhero film that did a supporting cast member becomes a villain in a sequel? I suppose Doctor Strange 2 will, when Marvel gets around to it)

----------


## Confuzzled

> aside from Raimi's Spider-Man films, what was the last superhero film that did a supporting cast member becomes a villain in a sequel?


Star-Lord  :Stick Out Tongue: 

ok he's not a supporting character but couldn't resist

----------


## Johnny

> Star-Lord


Damn. It's true tho. I think people ended up hating Quill more than Thanos. lol

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Basically just Kirby, Walt Simonson's Orion, Morrison's 7 Soldiers Of Victory and Final Crisis. 
> Absolutely avoid Starlin.


Awesome! Thanks Carabas.

----------


## Confuzzled

Skateboarders aged 18-25 needed for _Wonder Woman 2_'s Landmark Mall scene: 




> Skateboarders needed for an upcoming movie to be set at Landmark Mall. It may, or may not, be #wonderwoman 2...so if you’re looking to rub elbows with @gal_gadot...here’s your chance! Maybe 18-25 year old skateboarders are her thing. Who knows? Also needed...”fit ladies” with #leotards & #legwarmers #landmarkmall #movies #skateboard #skateboarding #skateboardingisfun #virginia #alpineskateshop






Source

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Watched _Justice League_ for the first time on Blu-ray last night (fourth time in total), and it was even better than I remember it. Yes, it has its faults, and I'll always wonder how it might have turned out "if only," but I still find the film very enjoyable overall. I really don't understand why it didn't do better than it did.
> 
> About the only thing I'd classify as sub-par is the musical score. The whole time I was watching it, I couldn't help but wonder how much better this scene or that would've presented had Zimmer been brought back to compose instead.


It was a quite enjoyable movie, but the previous bad reviews and the unnecessary production cost affected it badly.

----------


## DiceRoll

> aside from Raimi's Spider-Man films, what was the last superhero film that did a supporting cast member becomes a villain in a sequel?


Captain America: The First Avenger?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Captain America: The First Avenger?


Wow, can't believe I actually forgot the biggest example in the room!

----------


## Confuzzled

> Wow, can't believe I actually forgot the biggest example in the room!


Does Bucky count as a villain though? In _Winter Soldier_ and _Civil War_ he was portrayed more as a victim of brainwashing for Cap to save, and once he was treated, he has gone back to being straight up heroic.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Rumor: Actress Lindsey Morgan Auditioned For DC Films Batgirl: https://heroichollywood.com/lindsey-...ioned-batgirl/

----------


## Frontier

> Does Bucky count as a villain though? In _Winter Soldier_ and _Civil War_ he was portrayed more as a victim of brainwashing for Cap to save, and once he was treated, he has gone back to being straight up heroic.


He was the primary physical antagonist of the movie, at the very least, even though Pierce was the real villain.

----------


## Cerulean Scarab

> Skateboarders aged 18-25 needed for _Wonder Woman 2_'s Landmark Mall scene: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source



PLEASE Be some sort of skateboarding action chase scene where Diana beats up some neon-colored skate thugs, steals a board, and goes riding down hill in the style of Sonic Adventure 2's City Escape. >_>

----------


## Slowpokeking

What if the plan was like that
2013 MOS
2015 MOS2 Remove those overly dark elements, introducing WW and Batman
2016 Flash Introduce Cyborg and the Apokolips tech behind him
       WW Also introduce Atlantis and Apokolips
2017 Aquaman, give us more info about Apokolips
       Justice League, so both the heroes and the villains got more setup, use someone else than Steppenwolf as the villain.

----------


## Frontier

> PLEASE Be some sort of skateboarding action chase scene where Diana beats up some neon-colored skate thugs, steals a board, and goes riding down hill in the style of Sonic Adventure 2's City Escape. >_>


That would be...something  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Confuzzled

> PLEASE Be some sort of skateboarding action chase scene where Diana beats up some neon-colored skate thugs, steals a board, and goes riding down hill in the style of Sonic Adventure 2's City Escape. >_>





> That would be...something .


And they say a Wonder Woman game is near impossible to make.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> And they say a Wonder Woman game is near impossible to make.


I don't know what "they" are talking about. God of War is already the perfect template for a good Wonder Woman game.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't know what "they" are talking about. God of War is already the perfect template for a good Wonder Woman game.


Ikr? That one weak Superman game is always brought up as reason for why most non-Batman DC characters "don't lend themselves well to games".

----------


## Carabas

> PLEASE Be some sort of skateboarding action chase scene where Diana beats up some neon-colored skate thugs, steals a board, and goes riding down hill in the style of Sonic Adventure 2's City Escape. >_>


"Just some extras in the background" seems more likely.

----------


## Confuzzled

> "Just some extras in the background" seems more likely.


Could be an 80's mall montage like the one cut from _X-Men: Apocalypse_

----------


## Cerulean Scarab

> "Just some extras in the background" seems more likely.


A man can dream. A man can dream!

----------


## Confuzzled

Margot Robbie wants Birds of Prey film to be R-rated

The way she keeps talking about it as "Harley Quinn girl gang" film, it sounds more like a mix of BoP and Sirens rather than only BoP. She also confirms she wasn't involved with the Joker/Harley film and David Ayer's Sirens project but this was the film she was personally pushing at WB.

----------


## Frontier

I don't really see the need to make it R-rated unless it's just a really violent and explicit film, which I don't see why it would need to be. 

I mean, it'll probably be an action-packed and sexy film, but I don't think that necessitates an R-rating.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Margot Robbie wants Birds of Prey film to be R-rated
> 
> The way she keeps talking about it as "Harley Quinn girl gang" film, it sounds more like a mix of BoP and Sirens rather than only BoP. She also confirms she wasn't involved with the Joker/Harley film and David Ayer's Sirens project but this was the film she was personally pushing at WB.


Yeah, all the movie studios need to be on the lookout for this. Overuse of the R-rating. Used well, it can work wonders. But some movies just don't need it, and neither Birds of Prey nor Gotham City Sirens will need it. They're lighter books for the most part. They have their dark stories, sure. But that's not enough to warrant limiting your audience for a movie like that.

----------


## Punisher007

I'd be fine with it as long as it's good. And there's quite a few possible character, Harley included, that COULD fit in a more R-rated story.

Also Harley/Ivy love scene, just saying.   :Wink:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'd be fine with it as long as it's good. And there's quite a few possible character, Harley included, that COULD fit in a more R-rated story.


With Harley, they'd have to make a final decision about what kind of character they want her to be. Is she supposed to be a kooky cartoon character come to life? Then she doesn't need R-rated stories. Is she truly supposed to be DC's answer to Deadpool? Then okay. The R-rating did wonders for him after all.




> Also Harley/Ivy love scene, just saying.


This possibility is almost enough to win me over to the idea, however.  :Wink:

----------


## Robotman

A BoP movie needs to be PG-13. A Harley solo flick could be rated R.

----------


## Punisher007

Margot doesn't believe that Harley works as a solo act.  She feels like Harley works best playing off of others, and I personally agree with her.  And she can be more anti-hero-ish and still have screwed up stories.  Heck even the animated show that they're apparently making is supposedly going to be "R-rated."

As for the other characters, well Ivy, Huntress, and Katana can also easily fit into R-rated stories, and perhaps also Catwoman and/or Black Canary.  Batgirl is the odd fit, but even she's had darker stories before (Gail Simone's entire New 52 run felt borderline "R-rated" imo).

----------


## Frontier

> Also Harley/Ivy love scene, just saying.


This just makes me think of them throwing in some nude scenes featuring the Sirens...



> With Harley, they'd have to make a final decision about what kind of character they want her to be. Is she supposed to be a kooky cartoon character come to life? Then she doesn't need R-rated stories. Is she truly supposed to be DC's answer to Deadpool? Then okay. The R-rating did wonders for him after all.


Her being DC's answer to Deadpool shouldn't stop her from being a kooky cartoon character come to life  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Margot doesn't believe that Harley works as a solo act.  She feels like Harley works best playing off of others, and I personally agree with her.  And she can be more anti-hero-ish and still have screwed up stories.  Heck even the animated show that they're apparently making is supposedly going to be "R-rated."


The animated series also still has her as a Supervillain. 



> As for the other characters, well Ivy, Huntress, and Katana can also easily fit into R-rated stories, and perhaps also Catwoman and/or Black Canary.  Batgirl is the odd fit, but even she's had darker stories before (Gail Simone's entire New 52 run felt borderline "R-rated" imo).


Given the reception to Batgirl's portrayal under Simone's run and the R-rated _Killing Joke_ animated movie, I don't think anyone is in a rush to see an R-rated Batgirl. 

But with the DCEU in the state that it is, I'm not sure if they should make their female-hero movie R-rated. But that's just me.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm not saying that it NEEDS to happen.  Just that I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea either.  It's all in the execution for me.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

As usual, take everything that Umberto Gonzalez posts with a grain of salt, but his latest tweet seems to tease that the Flash film being a Flashpoint adaptation is dead.
https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/994312109814046720

(note: this Tweet contains an image that is one of those out of context Infinity War spoiler memes that've made their way round the internet - just a warning)

----------


## Frontier

> As usual, take everything that Umberto Gonzalez posts with a grain of salt, but his latest tweet seems to tease that the Flash film being a Flashpoint adaptation is dead.
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/994312109814046720
> 
> (note: this Tweet contains an image that is one of those out of context Infinity War spoiler memes that've made their way round the internet - just a warning)


If so...good.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> As usual, take everything that Umberto Gonzalez posts with a grain of salt, but his latest tweet seems to tease that the Flash film being a Flashpoint adaptation is dead.
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/994312109814046720
> 
> (note: this Tweet contains an image that is one of those out of context Infinity War spoiler memes that've made their way round the internet - just a warning)


Very happy about this. 

Let's get audiences comfy with The Flash before we start chucking AUs at them.

----------


## Vakanai

> Margot doesn't believe that Harley works as a solo act.  She feels like Harley works best playing off of others, and I personally agree with her.  And she can be more anti-hero-ish and still have screwed up stories.  Heck even the animated show that they're apparently making is supposedly going to be "R-rated."
> 
> As for the other characters, well Ivy, Huntress, and Katana can also easily fit into R-rated stories, and perhaps also Catwoman and/or Black Canary.  Batgirl is the odd fit, but even she's had darker stories before (Gail Simone's entire New 52 run felt borderline "R-rated" imo).


What animated show?

----------


## Clark_Kent

In regards to a possibly R-rated girl gang movie, I just want them to focus on making the film they want, and making it as good as it can be. If that means rated R, so be it. The last thing they should be concerned about is whether it limits the audience or not, imo. They need critical reception on their side, so just make a good movie & don't worry about the rating (Deadpool made more money than Justice League, and it was R. Audiences thought it was good, so they kept coming). 




> What animated show?


DC's upcoming streaming service has announced several original shows for it. 'Titans', 'Swamp Thing', 'Metropolis' (is this one still alive?), and a Harley Quinn animated series shooting for a rated R tone.

----------


## RepHope

> In regards to a possibly R-rated girl gang movie, I just want them to focus on making the film they want, and making it as good as it can be. If that means rated R, so be it. The last thing they should be concerned about is whether it limits the audience or not, imo. They need critical reception on their side, so just make a good movie & don't worry about the rating (Deadpool made more money than Justice League, and it was R. Audiences thought it was good, so they kept coming). 
> 
> 
> 
> DC's upcoming streaming service has announced several original shows for it. 'Titans', 'Swamp Thing', 'Metropolis' (is this one still alive?), and a Harley Quinn animated series shooting for a rated R tone.


Metropolis is getting reworked apparently. I hope they switch from Lois and Lex to Maggie Sawyer and the MSCU.

----------


## Robotman

> As usual, take everything that Umberto Gonzalez posts with a grain of salt, but his latest tweet seems to tease that the Flash film being a Flashpoint adaptation is dead.
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/994312109814046720
> 
> (note: this Tweet contains an image that is one of those out of context Infinity War spoiler memes that've made their way round the internet - just a warning)


really hope this is true. Flashpoint is the last story to adapt right now. they shouldn't make the universe altering story the first Flash solo flick. also, the DC cinematic universe is made fun of for trying to be so "dark" and "edgy". Flashpoint would just perpetuate that image. a world where Aquaman and Wonder Woman are at each other's throats, where Batman is an alcoholic murderer (wait, they already did that), where Superman is an emaciated torture victim, where Wonder Woman kills a child, etc. If they want to focus on lighter more fun comic book movies they should stay away from Flashpoint for a while. 

They could still have Flash go up against Professor Zoom and The Rogues and make it a very enjoyable film. plus, they haven't even established Barry's world. personally, i would recast The Flash and just start over.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Metropolis is getting reworked apparently. I hope they switch from Lois and Lex to Maggie Sawyer and the MSCU.


I'd love an MSCU show, and they could even incorporate the occasionalLois or Lex role here & there. It getting re-worked is good news though. A live action Metropolis version of Gotham Central would be at the top of my wishlist if we are going to have Superman shows without Superman in them (I wish Fox's 'Gotham' had been this, instead of a prequel thing. Ugh.).

----------


## Vakanai

> In regards to a possibly R-rated girl gang movie, I just want them to focus on making the film they want, and making it as good as it can be. If that means rated R, so be it. The last thing they should be concerned about is whether it limits the audience or not, imo. They need critical reception on their side, so just make a good movie & don't worry about the rating (Deadpool made more money than Justice League, and it was R. Audiences thought it was good, so they kept coming). 
> 
> 
> 
> DC's upcoming streaming service has announced several original shows for it. 'Titans', 'Swamp Thing', 'Metropolis' (is this one still alive?), and a Harley Quinn animated series shooting for a rated R tone.


Damn, my internet access isn't up for streaming services.

----------


## byrd156

> Metropolis is getting reworked apparently. I hope they switch from Lois and Lex to Maggie Sawyer and the MSCU.


I really want Metropolis to be a show following the Daily Planet while Superman is around, not another Smallville or Gotham.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> As usual, take everything that Umberto Gonzalez posts with a grain of salt, but his latest tweet seems to tease that the Flash film being a Flashpoint adaptation is dead.
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/994312109814046720
> 
> (note: this Tweet contains an image that is one of those out of context Infinity War spoiler memes that've made their way round the internet - just a warning)


If this is true, then it probably means WB is starting to regain confidence in the DCEU. There's all kinds of indicators that their confidence in Aquaman is increasing. Maybe Walter Hamada has shown them at least some of his game plan for fixing the DCEU and they think it can work. 

I think Flashpoint was always WB's "Break Glass In Case Of Emergency" button: a weapon of last resort only to be deployed in the event that the DCEU seemed unsalvageable. If they're more confident that it won't be necessary, then they may back off on it.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Decisions are being made by Peter Jackson and his NZ crew: Return to Middle-earth with Amazon, or play in the DC Universe?"_

https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/st...48409573130241

----------


## Vanguard-01

> _"Decisions are being made by Peter Jackson and his NZ crew: Return to Middle-earth with Amazon, or play in the DC Universe?"_
> 
> https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/st...48409573130241


A possible Peter Jackson DC movie? That would be AWESOME! I wonder what movie he's considering? 

Can't decide which choice I'd be more interested in.

----------


## Serpico Jones

The One Ring are very close to Jackson and his Weta crew so this shouldn’t be dismissed.

----------


## Confuzzled

> A possible Peter Jackson DC movie? That would be AWESOME! I wonder what movie he's considering?


Justice League 2? I had always wished that the first JL had simply followed _Fellowship of the Ring_'s beats (Steppenwolf being a Nazgul like lieutenant of the Dark Lord, protecting of the Mother Boxes being akin to protecting the One Ring, a "Fellowship" of different races - Kryptonian, Amazon, Atlantean, Human forming to protect the prized treasure, the movie spanning across different locations in the world etc.)

It would have been a much more intriguing and tonally smooth movie if that had been the case.

----------


## Korath

I would love to see Jackson on a Bana Mighdall/early Amazons movies, personally.

----------


## Tarantino

Jackson will be perfect for Man of Steel 2.

----------


## Vakanai

Jackson on the Flash, use the King Kong experience to deliver on Grodd.

----------


## Gaastra

Jackson needs to do warlord.

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## Gaastra

Or last boy on earth.  DCU needs some fantasy films.

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> _"Decisions are being made by Peter Jackson and his NZ crew: Return to Middle-earth with Amazon, or play in the DC Universe?"_
> 
> https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/st...48409573130241


Not surprising, considering his ties to WB. He's pretty much exclusively worked on huge blockbusters for the last ten years though, and looked pretty broken after the rough production of the Hobbit movies. One would think he'd like more of a break, or work on something smaller and less involved than a DC movie?

----------


## Serpico Jones

> Not surprising, considering his ties to WB. He's pretty much exclusively worked on huge blockbusters for the last ten years though, and looked pretty broken after the rough production of the Hobbit movies. One would think he'd like more of a break, or work on something smaller and less involved than a DC movie?


He’s had a break. He finished the Hobbit years ago and has barely worked since.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'd love for him to work with Amazon but I'd also love his take on a DC property. 

Too bad Swamp Thing is taken. As are WW and Shazam, two of the bigger mythological DC characters. What would best suit him?

----------


## Robotman

I think Jackson would be a great choice to direct a New Gods movie if DeVernay drops out. The New Gods have potential to be the next LotR-like franchise.

----------


## Carabas

> I think Jackson would be a great choice to direct a New Gods movie if DeVernay drops out. The New Gods have potential to be the next LotR-like franchise.


They really seem a lot closer to Star Wars with actual Gods thrown in.

----------


## Lightning Rider

He'd probably do New Gods perfectly. 

That's one of those franchises that I'm dying to see but that has a high percentage of falling flat in execution, either falling under the weight of its own grandiosity or echoing the already established and acclaimed space-god politics of Marvel.

----------


## Gaastra

Wasn't jacksons next movie tintin 2?

----------


## Slowpokeking

What happened to Kara Zor El in DCEU? We saw her in the comic as the ancestor of Kal El.

----------


## Carabas

> What happened to Kara Zor El in DCEU? We saw her in the comic as the ancestor of Kal El.


Nothing.

I seriously doubt anybody involved in making DC movies is going to consider that comic even remotemy canonical.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Nothing.
> 
> I seriously doubt anybody involved in making DC movies is going to consider that comic even remotemy canonical.


We saw someone indeed came out from the ship in MoS since it was empty. It could be filled if we get MoS2, the Krypton mythos needs to be expanded.

Not a big fan of Supergirl in the comic since she affected Superman's "Last Son of Krypton" a bit. Love Helen Slater's portrayal though. She was the most beautiful and lovely superheroine on screen. Too bad she met terrible script.

----------


## Frontier

> Wasn't jacksons next movie tintin 2?


That's actually happening? It feels like several years since the last one. 



> What happened to Kara Zor El in DCEU? We saw her in the comic as the ancestor of Kal El.


I remember people really jumping onto the idea that the caped hologram Bruce was looking at in trailers was Supergirl.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They really seem a lot closer to Star Wars with actual Gods thrown in.


The Apokolips setting is closer to Mad Max. The New Genesis setting is closer to some Chinese blockbusters like The Monkey King.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That's one of those franchises that I'm dying to see but that has a high percentage of falling flat in execution, either falling under the weight of its own grandiosity *or echoing the already established and acclaimed space-god politics of Marvel*.


I thought it was universally agreed upon that The Black Order was the weakest link of Infinity War? Even Thanos himself is slightly divisive and I think there's plenty of room for improvement there.

----------


## Carabas

> The Apokolips setting is closer to Mad Max. The New Genesis setting is closer to some Chinese blockbusters like The Monkey King.


I'm going to have to disagree with that.
Mad Max lives in Disneyworld compared to Apokolips. I don't see any comparisons.

And yes, there are a lot of elements of stuff like Monkey King (especially given how Kirby used to draw Highfather's facial hair), the Fourth World full of airspeeders, floating habitats and space stations, people with ray guns, space ships...

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm going to have to disagree with that.
> Mad Max lives in Disneyworld compared to Apokolips. I don't see any comparisons.


George Miller is a big Kirby fan. _Mad Max_'s post-apocalyptic Wasteland is a slightly restrained version of Apokolips. Warlords having youth/children brainwashed and trained as soldiers (Immortan Joe using the War Dogs in _Fury Road_ being the parallel to Darkseid and his Hounds), an intimidating and morally questionable white haired termagant calling shots who refers to herself in a more benign manner (Auntie Entity from _Beyond Thunderdome_ being the Granny Goodness analogy), a fierce female leader who betrays the warlord and his lieutenants who brainwashed her and escapes from their clutches (Furiousa being the Big Barda analogy) along with the "hero" (Max = Scott Free) etc. are as obvious comparisons as you can get.

And those are just the major ones off the top of my head as I clearly remember elements only from Fury Road and Thunderdome. Haven't watched the first two films in a while.

----------


## Styles

David F. Sandberg On Why We Havent Seen An Official Photo Of The Suit Yet

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I thought it was universally agreed upon that The Black Order was the weakest link of Infinity War? Even Thanos himself is slightly divisive and I think there's plenty of room for improvement there.


That's definitely true, I was thinking more of Asgard, with Thor and Odin and Loki.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> David F. Sandberg On Why We Haven’t Seen An Official Photo Of The Suit Yet


Probably has something to do with the transition of power as Hamada takes over. He may have some new ideas of his own or maybe it's just that key decisions are being delayed until he's more settled. Who knows?

----------


## Frontier

I'm also surprised we don't know about the actual _Aquaman_ movie costume Momoa will be sporting.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> I'm also surprised we don't know about the actual _Aquaman_ movie costume Momoa will be sporting.


It'll be comic accurate like this...

----------


## Hawkman

> It'll be comic accurate like this...


What's that from? If that's really what it will look like, then color me pleased.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> What's that from? If that's really what it will look like, then color me pleased.


I think it's from some WB exhibition. It was rumored to be the look of Momoa's Aquaman in Wan's movie. After Aquaman's test-screening, a blogger says that Aquamoa's costume was comic accurate (green gloves and all) and was similar to the statue above.

----------


## Frontier

I know there was some kind of confirmation that the classic look that that figure alludes to would be in the movie, though I don't think there's been any kind of 100% official confirmation if it.

----------


## Styles

Shazam! officially wraps

----------


## Raijin

> Shazam! officially wraps


He's definitely holding Mister Mind. I'm calling it now.

----------


## Frontier

> He's definitely holding Mister Mind. I'm calling it now.


Given they've been basing so much on the New 52 story, I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Mind pops up in a Post-Credit scene and the next movie deals with Billy and his family fighting the Monster Society of Evil. 

Heck, that might've been what Johns always intended to do as a continuation.

----------


## Confuzzled

I wish Klarion the Witch Boy was the villain for the Shazam! sequel (Heck I wished he were the villain of the first film but I digress).

A movie based on that _Young Justice_ episode where Klarion separates the adults and kids under 18 into two separate parallel universes, with Shazam/Billy being the only one to traverse both worlds would be so freaking amazing!

----------


## Frontier

> I wish Klarion the Witch Boy was the villain for the Shazam! sequel (Heck I wished he were the villain of the first film but I digress).
> 
> A movie based on that _Young Justice_ episode where Klarion separates the adults and kids under 18 into two separate parallel universes, with Shazam/Billy being the only one to traverse both worlds would be so freaking amazing!


That sounds like it would be fun, but I think the Monster Society would probably be a more fitting threat for a future movie (especially since they're actually Captain Marvel villains).

Although given how much they've based off the New 52 story, it would be interesting to see what they would do with something that Johns/Frank _didn't_ do in that story.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> It'll be comic accurate like this...


I still think he fits Lobo 100 times than Aquaman.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I still think he fits Lobo 100 times than Aquaman.


People used to say that Gal Gadot better fit Catwoman/[Insert spy or femme fatale character name] than Wonder Woman but then the movie came out and proved she was the perfect Diana.  

Momoa, like Gadot before Wonder Woman, seems to have been typecast too. In his case, as a "dumb/rough brute" type. So it's good if he gets to display some other traits. He's spoken about how much portraying the character means to him given his Polynesian heritage and ocean revering culture. And I liked his scene in Justice League where he sat on the Lasso of Truth and revealed about how he didn't feel like he really fit on either side of the Atlantean/Human equation.

----------


## Frontier

> People used to say that Gal Gadot better fit Catwoman/[Insert spy or femme fatale character name] than Wonder Woman but then the movie came out and proved she was the perfect Diana.  
> 
> Momoa, like Gadot before Wonder Woman, seems to have been typecast too. In his case, as a "dumb/rough brute" type. So it's good if he gets to display some other traits. He's spoken about how much portraying the character means to him given his Polynesian heritage and ocean revering culture. And I liked his scene in Justice League where he sat on the Lasso of Truth and revealed about how he didn't feel like he really fit on either side of the Atlantean/Human equation.


I would've never pegged Gadot for Catwoman personally. Not that she doesn't have the looks for it (because she does), but it just didn't seem like a natural fit to me. 

I'll be curious to see how they develop Momoa into a more classic Aquaman, if that's their intention with this movie.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I still think he fits Lobo 100 times than Aquaman.


Lobo would probably be done with like 80% CGI anyway.

----------


## Vakanai

> Lobo would probably be done with like 80% CGI anyway.


Why, nothing about Lobo requires more than some Kiss style make up. Not like he is a twenty foot tall tentacle monster.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I'm also surprised we don't know about the actual _Aquaman_ movie costume Momoa will be sporting.


Just gonna be wearing t shirt & jeans! Costumes are lame.

----------


## Frontier

> Why, nothing about Lobo requires more than some Kiss style make up. Not like he is a twenty foot tall tentacle monster.


Yeah, Lobo really doesn't need CGI unless you want to make him look like his more exaggerated self in the comics. 



> Just gonna be wearing t shirt & jeans! Costumes are lame.


I hope not  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Why, nothing about Lobo requires more than some Kiss style make up. Not like he is a twenty foot tall tentacle monster.


He's not a tentacle monster, but he is a pretty big hulking figure in comparison to the average sized person. It can be inconsistent but it is how he appears a lot of the time. He's not the same level as the Hulk, but he's not like Batman either (we're not talking about Twilight Lobo here).

----------


## Frontier

You need a heavy-set guy for Lobo, but with camera angles, height, and makeup it shouldn't be too hard to capture him from the comics with practical effects.

----------


## Vakanai

> He's not a tentacle monster, but he is a pretty big hulking figure in comparison to the average sized person. It can be inconsistent but it is how he appears a lot of the time. He's not the same level as the Hulk, but he's not like Batman either (we're not talking about Twilight Lobo here).


It is inconsistent, and the movies don't need complete accuracy, a large enough actor will be fine. Maybe some tricky camera work if you need him really bigger.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It is inconsistent, and the movies don't need complete accuracy, a large enough actor will be fine. Maybe some tricky camera work if you need him really bigger.


I just think it would be better if they actually went for some CGI to bring him to life. As long as they can make it look as good as the MCU makes Hulk look.

----------


## Vakanai

> I just think it would be better if they actually went for some CGI to bring him to life. As long as they can make it look as good as the MCU makes Hulk look.


Eh, the Hulk is kind of hit and miss, he doesn't always look as real as the flesh and blood humans on sceen. If the only reason to make Lobo CGI is to make him bigger, I would rather shrink him down slightly and use a real person. There are better characters to go CG with.

----------


## Frontier

Yeah, I don't think Lobo should be The Hulk or require that level of CG.

----------


## Lightning Rider

So assuming the next couple of stand-alone films are successful, what kind of different story could the DCEU tell in their next JL team-up movie? I was hoping for a Secret Society movie instead of a New Gods movie to distinguish from Infinity War. But I'd love to hear some more diverse ideas.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So assuming the next couple of stand-alone films are successful, what kind of different story could the DCEU tell in their next JL team-up movie? I was hoping for a Secret Society movie instead of a New Gods movie to distinguish from Infinity War. But I'd love to hear some more diverse ideas.


Secret Society/Legion of Doom IS the best direction for the sequel (I wonder if that's the reason we are getting the LoD title with THAT line-up of archnemesi right now).

It's novel, a Hero Team-Up vs. a Villain Team-Up clash is actually something Marvel hasn't done yet, we could have really fun and fascinating villain/villain interactions in addition to the hero/hero ones, and best of all, it demands that it be preceded by solo films introducing and emphasizing the unique relationship each DC hero has with his or her main villain. That neatly sidesteps the issue of "rushing" or overstuffing that BvS and JL fell victim to.

Additionally, it saves the New Gods for JL3 (and JL4), allowing them to be developed in their own franchise first (giving them their own POV films even before they clash with the League). That way, when the New Gods pose a direct threat to Earth, people will be super invested as they know the backstories and relationship dynamics of both sides involved. This also prevents the non-Darkseid NG from being underutilized like the Black Order in Infinity War.

So if JL2 with the Legion/Society is _Heroes vs. Villains_, New Gods in JL3 is _Gods vs. Mortals_ (ok fine, the Leaguers are kinda Gods themselves, but they are OUR pantheon, versus a hellish pantheon).

----------


## RepHope

> Secret Society/Legion of Doom IS the best direction for the sequel (I wonder if that's the reason we are getting the LoD title with THAT line-up of archnemesi right now).
> 
> It's novel, a Hero Team-Up vs. a Villain Team-Up clash is actually something Marvel hasn't done yet, we could have really fun and fascinating villain/villain interactions in addition to the hero/hero ones, and best of all, it demands that it be preceded by solo films introducing and emphasizing the unique relationship each DC hero has with his or her main villain. That neatly sidesteps the issue of "rushing" or overstuffing that BvS and JL fell victim to.
> 
> Additionally, it saves the New Gods for JL3 (and JL4), allowing them to be developed in their own franchise first (giving them their own POV films even before they clash with the League). That way, when the New Gods pose a direct threat to Earth, people will be super invested as they know the backstories and relationship dynamics of both sides involved. This also prevents the non-Darkseid NG from being underutilized like the Black Order in Infinity War.
> 
> So if JL2 with the Legion/Society is _Heroes vs. Villains_, New Gods in JL3 is _Gods vs. Mortals_ (ok fine, the Leaguers are kinda Gods themselves, but they are OUR pantheon, versus a hellish pantheon).


They better recast Luthor and get rid of the most idiotic parts of Leto's Joker designs like the cringeworthy tats than.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Secret Society/Legion of Doom IS the best direction for the sequel (I wonder if that's the reason we are getting the LoD title with THAT line-up of archnemesi right now).
> 
> It's novel, a Hero Team-Up vs. a Villain Team-Up clash is actually something Marvel hasn't done yet, we could have really fun and fascinating villain/villain interactions in addition to the hero/hero ones, and best of all, it demands that it be preceded by solo films introducing and emphasizing the unique relationship each DC hero has with his or her main villain. That neatly sidesteps the issue of "rushing" or overstuffing that BvS and JL fell victim to.
> 
> Additionally, it saves the New Gods for JL3 (and JL4), allowing them to be developed in their own franchise first (giving them their own POV films even before they clash with the League). That way, when the New Gods pose a direct threat to Earth, people will be super invested as they know the backstories and relationship dynamics of both sides involved. This also prevents the non-Darkseid NG from being underutilized like the Black Order in Infinity War.
> 
> So if JL2 with the Legion/Society is _Heroes vs. Villains_, New Gods in JL3 is _Gods vs. Mortals_ (ok fine, the Leaguers are kinda Gods themselves, but they are OUR pantheon, versus a hellish pantheon).


Yeah I fully agree with your reasonings. I also think that it's possible we see a villain team-up against Darkseid and his New Gods, which would also be something that hadn't been done before.

Question is: could Eisenberg be convincing in that big green suit?

----------


## Confuzzled

> They better recast Luthor and get rid of the most idiotic parts of Leto's Joker designs like the cringeworthy tats than.


I'd rather they recast Leto than Eisenberg. Eisenberg's Luthor is actually more believable and realistic in this age of Elon Musk.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yeah I fully agree with your reasonings. I also think that it's possible we see a villain team-up against Darkseid and his New Gods, which would also be something that hadn't been done before.
> 
> *Question is: could Eisenberg be convincing in that big green suit?*


It needn't reveal his head like in the comics as that could be a VFX nightmare no matter who the actor is. Maybe it could be something closer to the Iron Man suit (which would be interesting subtext  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## Lightning Rider

He might, apparently.



Also only just found this rumor now:

https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/02...oving-forward/

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yeah I have no issue keeping Eisenberg as Luthor. 

I think the problem was very much the writing and direction, not the casting.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Some random rumors.

https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/05...and-the-flash/

Sad that the Batfleck exit seems to be echoed constantly.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> People used to say that Gal Gadot better fit Catwoman/[Insert spy or femme fatale character name] than Wonder Woman but then the movie came out and proved she was the perfect Diana.  
> 
> Momoa, like Gadot before Wonder Woman, seems to have been typecast too. In his case, as a "dumb/rough brute" type. So it's good if he gets to display some other traits. He's spoken about how much portraying the character means to him given his Polynesian heritage and ocean revering culture. And I liked his scene in Justice League where he sat on the Lasso of Truth and revealed about how he didn't feel like he really fit on either side of the Atlantean/Human equation.


I never connect her with Catwoman or such roles, nah she was too dull to play such roles.

But Momoa does look like Lobo so much.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I never connect her with Catwoman or such roles, nah she was too dull to play such roles.
> 
> But Momoa does look like Lobo so much.


I was always partial to Danny Trejo. 

[IMG]https://i.*****.com/vi/lufjWGwZS3s/maxresdefault.jpg[/IMG]

Not muscular enough though.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Some random rumors.
> 
> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/05...and-the-flash/
> 
> Sad that the Batfleck exit seems to be echoed constantly.


Really hope the Superman stuff is true. Also, thank goodness about Flash/Flashpoint.

----------


## Robotman

> Some random rumors.
> 
> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/05...and-the-flash/
> 
> Sad that the Batfleck exit seems to be echoed constantly.


please let the Superman rumors be true! he needs a proper sequel. 

sidenote, i really hope the video game rumors are also true. if so, things could seriously be looking up for the Man of Steel. it may mean that WB has realized how terribly they've treated the most iconic hero in comic's history.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Give us Brainiac as the villain pls.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Some random rumors.
> 
> https://revengeofthefans.com/2018/05...and-the-flash/
> 
> Sad that the Batfleck exit seems to be echoed constantly.





> Really hope the Superman stuff is true. Also, thank goodness about Flash/Flashpoint.





> please let the Superman rumors be true! he needs a proper sequel.


Recently, people with a good track record have said that a Superman solo movie is definitely happening. I guess we've just wait for SDCC for an official confirmation.

Also, Ben Affleck has apparently changed his mind for the umpteenth time and wants to keep playing Batman: https://batman-news.com/2018/05/14/r...n-in-the-dceu/

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

*Henry Cavill Talks "Extensive" JUSTICE LEAGUE Reshoots, "Ridiculous" Marketing And Negative Response:* https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...sponse-a160584

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Recently, people with a good track record have said that a Superman solo movie is definitely happening. I guess we've just wait for SDCC for an official confirmation.
> 
> Also, Ben Affleck has apparently changed his mind for the umpteenth time and wants to keep playing Batman: https://batman-news.com/2018/05/14/r...n-in-the-dceu/


Thank you for that. Here's hoping.

----------


## Robotman

I love the rumor that Superman will be the glue that holds the DC movieverse together going forward. Not only does it show that WB is committed to pushing Superman but having him as the guiding light shows a more hopeful DCEU. Having a dark character like Batman as the one that shows up in every movie and the one who brought the League together set a rather dark tone. Again, another huge problem caused by starting the DCEU with a Dark Knight Returns inspired Batman.

If Kal shows up in Shazam it will be super cool to see Billy gush over meeting him.

----------


## Agent Z

> I love the rumor that Superman will be the glue that holds the DC movieverse together going forward. Not only does it show that WB is committed to pushing Superman but having him as the guiding light shows a more hopeful DCEU. Having a dark character like Batman as the one that shows up in every movie and the one who brought the League together set a rather dark tone. Again, another huge problem caused by starting the DCEU with a Dark Knight Returns inspired Batman.
> 
> If Kal shows up in Shazam it will be super cool to see Billy gush over meeting him.


Wonder Woman and Justice League weren't dark.

----------


## Raijin

> Wonder Woman and Justice League weren't dark.


None of these movies are dark. It's such an overused term at this point. I'm convinced that people don't even know what it means. They just throw it out there.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> None of these movies are dark. It's such an overused term at this point. I'm convinced that people don't even know what it means. They just throw it out there.


Dark means that a movie is overly morose and wallows in depressing themes without any levity to counterbalance that.

----------


## Robotman

> None of these movies are dark. It's such an overused term at this point. I'm convinced that people don't even know what it means. They just throw it out there.


Phrases like “dark” and “real world consequences” were thrown around by WB themselves when describing their plans for the DCEU was a way to differentiate their superhero movieverse from Marvel/Disney. It’s not just views that people on message boards have made up. It was at the forefront of WB’s marketing for DC.

----------


## Agent Z

> Phrases like “dark” and “real world consequences” were thrown around by WB themselves when describing their plans for the DCEU was a way to differentiate their superhero movieverse from Marvel/Disney. It’s not just views that people on message boards have made up. It was at the forefront of WB’s marketing for DC.


They also stated that not all their movies would be like this even before BvS' release.

This dark stuff only rely applied to the Superman movies which weren't even that dark to begin with unless you compare them to the Superman movies that came before. And even then what occured in MoS or BvS wasn't that out of place in modern Superman movies.

----------


## Black_Adam

I think it's a good move making Cavill's Superman the glue of the DC Cinematic Universe, he's really grown into the role both on and off the camera. I must admit early in his career (MoS) he seemed kinda awkward, aloof and uncharismatic, basically a bit of a "stiff". But you look at him now he IS a real life Superman his social media posts are hilarious.

----------


## Carabas

> They also stated that not all their movies would be like this even before BvS' release.
> 
> This dark stuff only rely applied to the Superman movies which weren't even that dark to begin with unless you compare them to the Superman movies that came before. And even then what occured in MoS or BvS wasn't that out of place in modern Superman movies.


Yes, but they fully intended Justice League to be rather dark indeed, and what we know about the fabled Snyder cut is very dark indeed. 
And then they backpedalled in the most clumsy way possible, creating an obvious Frankenstein movie.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yes, but they fully intended Justice League to be rather dark indeed, and what we know about the fabled Snyder cut is very dark indeed. 
> And then they backpedalled in the most clumsy way possible, creating an obvious Frankenstein movie.


What we know or what people have claimed to know?

----------


## Raijin

> Phrases like “dark” and “real world consequences” were thrown around by WB themselves when describing their plans for the DCEU was a way to differentiate their superhero movieverse from Marvel/Disney. It’s not just views that people on message boards have made up. It was at the forefront of WB’s marketing for DC.


Eh. Then their version of dark isn't it. The Crow is what you would call dark. These DC movies do NOT fit the dark tone that people claim. Saying the movies have a serious tone makes more sense to me. I and many others like a more serious tone because if it was all colorful with forced humor. Then everyone would be extremely quick to say they are trying to be like the other guys. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

I do think a serious tone works for most DC characters, that includes Superman. I'm pretty sure Shazam will be lighter though. I still don't want the Marvel tone like everyone else.

----------


## Carabas

> Eh. Then their version of dark isn't it. The Crow is what you would call dark. These DC movies do NOT fit the dark tone that people claim. Saying the movies have a serious tone makes more sense to me. I and many others like a more serious tone because if it was all colorful with forced humor. Then you'd guys would be extremely quick to say they are trying to be like the other guys. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Dark is relative.
The DCEU is fairly fluffy and benign for a horror series, but rather dark for a superhero series that focuses on goddamn Superman.

----------


## Raijin

Agree to disagree, I guess. This is a Superman I can get behind.

----------


## Agent Z

> Dark is relative.
> The DCEU is fairly fluffy and benign for a horror series, but rather dark for a superhero series that focuses on goddamn Superman.


Most of what we've seen in the DCEU isn't exactly out of place in modern Superman stories and adaptations.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Most of what we've seen in the DCEU isn't exactly out of place in modern Superman stories and adaptations.


It really isn't at all, but for the movies, some would prefer Clark to sit at the kiddie table instead.  :Smile:

----------


## BlackClaw

> I think it's a good move making Cavill's Superman the glue of the DC Cinematic Universe, he's really grown into the role both on and off the camera. I must admit early in his career (MoS) he seemed kinda awkward, aloof and uncharismatic, basically a bit of a "stiff". But you look at him now he IS a real life Superman his social media posts are hilarious.


 Agreed with all of this. From what little we saw of him in Justice League, Cavill can play a good Superman he just needed better direction. Hopefully the DCEU can get it’s act together for good this time so that we can finally get a Superman movie that’s damn near universally agreed to be awesome.

----------


## Jokerz79

> They also stated that not all their movies would be like this even before BvS' release.
> 
> This dark stuff only rely applied to the Superman movies which weren't even that dark to begin with unless you compare them to the Superman movies that came before. And even then what occured in MoS or BvS wasn't that out of place in modern Superman movies.


Man of Steel and BvS weren't dark they were joyless which Snyder thought meant dark it seems.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Man of Steel and BvS weren't dark they were joyless which Snyder thought meant dark it seems.


Some of the most well-regarded Batman stories aren't exactly "joyful" either.

----------


## Agent Z

> Man of Steel and BvS weren't dark they were joyless which Snyder thought meant dark it seems.


MoS and BvS have moments of joy. YMMV whether they are sufficient but I don't determine how much joy their is in a movie by how often the characters are smiling seeing as how not smiling like a clown doesn't mean being perpetually depressed.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Some of the most well-regarded Batman stories aren't exactly "joyful" either.


Superman isn't Batman and even with Batman Nolan's trilogy which is arguably the most realistic take of the character ever wasn't joyless.

----------


## Jokerz79

> MoS and BvS have moments of joy. YMMV whether they are sufficient but I don't determine how much joy their is in a movie by how often the characters are smiling seeing as how not smiling like a clown doesn't mean being perpetually depressed.


Even the moments of "joy" in those films felt like they had morose undertones IMO.

----------


## tako

> Even the moments of "joy" in those films felt like they had morose undertones IMO.





> Superman isn't Batman and even with Batman Nolan's trilogy which is arguably the most realistic take of the character ever wasn't joyless.





> Man of Steel and BvS weren't dark they were joyless which Snyder thought meant dark it seems.


lmao wrong

----------


## Agent Z

> Even the moments of "joy" in those films felt like they had morose undertones IMO.


Such as? 

10 char.

----------


## Styles

AQUAMAN LEGO Minfigures May Give Us Some Idea Of The Costume Design For Black Manta

----------


## Frontier

> AQUAMAN LEGO Minfigures May Give Us Some Idea Of The Costume Design For Black Manta


I guess this confirms the classic suit, Mera getting her own trident, and Manta having a very elaborate torso area  :Cool: .

----------


## Jekyll

I may already have missed this discussion but HALLELUJAH FLASHPOINT IS CANCELLED!!!

----------


## The Dying Detective

I know Justice League is reviled but what really got me interested in any future DC movie projects was the mid-credits scene showing Luthor recruiting Deathstroke for his Injustice League. The idea and the way it was delivered alone sounded so cool and ambitious I really want to see it happen.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> AQUAMAN LEGO Minfigures May Give Us Some Idea Of The Costume Design For Black Manta


Undersea Darth Vader. Perfection! 

And yup! Looks like Arthur's going to get the green back in his costume. Cool to see Mera with her own trident too.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I know Justice League is reviled but what really got me interested in any future DC movie projects was the mid-credits scene showing Luthor recruiting Deathstroke for his Injustice League. The idea and the way it was delivered alone sounded so cool and ambitious I really want to see it happen.


I was definitely excited by this as well.

----------


## Jabare

there is not going to be a Justice League 2 so don't be too excited

----------


## Vanguard-01

> there is not going to be a Justice League 2 so don't be too excited


Cool story, bro.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Recently, people with a good track record have said that a Superman solo movie is definitely happening. I guess we've just wait for SDCC for an official confirmation.
> 
> Also, Ben Affleck has apparently changed his mind for the umpteenth time and wants to keep playing Batman: https://batman-news.com/2018/05/14/r...n-in-the-dceu/


The second the rumors started circling that Flashpoint was being axed in favor of a true Flash solo film I sorta figured that Affleck gave some indication that he is going to continue on as Batman. If you recall, the Flashpoint discussion didn't begin until right before comic-con last year, which is when Affleck started considering leaving the role. Flashpoint was as much as anything else a way for WB to distort the DCEU timeline and bring in a younger Bruce Wayne so they could replace Affleck without killing Bruce and having to explain Dick Grayson becoming Batman (hard to do when Dick hasn't been introduced yet).

----------


## Jabare

> Cool story, bro.


its fact. you've still got Aquaman and Wonder Woman 2 and will see from their, but you're fooling yourself if you think there is any chance of a Justice League 2

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> its fact. you've still got Aquaman and Wonder Woman 2 and will see from their, but you're fooling yourself if you think there is any chance of a Justice League 2


Then I'll keep fooling myself.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I was definitely excited by this as well.


With Flashpoint's cancellation in the cards we can look forward to seeing it happen.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think DC is going to be moving towards a _Justice League 2_ anytime soon, so they'll probably focus more on their solo films for now with very little connecting overarching until they can get a plan together. 

When the DCEU starts delivering hit after hit, then I can see WB re-considering doing another Justice League movie.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I don't think DC is going to be moving towards a _Justice League 2_ anytime soon, so they'll probably focus more on their solo films for now with very little connecting overarching until they can get a plan together. 
> 
> When the DCEU starts delivering hit after hit, then I can see WB re-considering doing another Justice League movie.


Yeah it will only be a possibility down the line. But I have faith in the upcoming solo movies.

I'm really waiting for that Aquaman trailer.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah it will only be a possibility down the line. But I have faith in the upcoming solo movies.
> 
> I'm really waiting for that Aquaman trailer.


Same here  :Smile: .

----------


## Robotman

Black Panther, Infinity War, and Deadpool 2(Fox not Marvel Studios but still) all in one year. Jeezus, the Marvel brand is having an epic year. 

We need the Aquaman trailer to be amazing. I really hope they don’t shy away from him “talking to sea life”. I hated how they said he communicates through water in Justice League like they were embarrassed about his classic powers. Just embrace the fact that he has telepathic powers which allows him to control sea life. Yes, he can talk to fish. Great white sharks are fish!

It’s cool to see that they’re possibly keeping the classic Black Manta design. It’s a giant overthetop helmet but it’s badass.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Black Panther, Infinity War, and Deadpool 2(Fox not Marvel Studios but still) all in one year. Jeezus, the Marvel brand is having an epic year. 
> 
> We need the Aquaman trailer to be amazing. I really hope they don’t shy away from him “talking to sea life”. I hated how they said he communicates through water in Justice League like they were embarrassed about his classic powers. Just embrace the fact that he has telepathic powers which allows him to control sea life. Yes, he can talk to fish. Great white sharks are fish!
> 
> It’s cool to see that they’re possibly keeping the classic Black Manta design. It’s a giant overthetop helmet but it’s badass.


They were embarrassed by the whole character that's why they took the surfer dude approach.

----------


## Moonwix

I am really tried of DC/WB always so embarrassed  by their characters. This is why, they never stick to the source material.  Trying to change the characters is the fundamental problem, that has brought the DCEU down in the first place.
The surfer dude approach to  aquaman is so off putting. Because of that, I have zero interest for the movie, did not like him at all in justice league.

----------


## Jabare



----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Black Panther, Infinity War, and Deadpool 2(Fox not Marvel Studios but still) all in one year. Jeezus, the Marvel brand is having an epic year. 
> 
> *We need the Aquaman trailer to be amazing. I really hope they don’t shy away from him “talking to sea life”. I hated how they said he communicates through water in Justice League like they were embarrassed about his classic powers. Just embrace the fact that he has telepathic powers which allows him to control sea life. Yes, he can talk to fish. Great white sharks are fish!*
> 
> It’s cool to see that they’re possibly keeping the classic Black Manta design. It’s a giant overthetop helmet but it’s badass.


Didn't Aquaman threaten Flash with a piranha attack?

----------


## Agent Z

Momoa's Aquaman is basically Peter Davids Aquaman without the hook hand and black hair instead of blonde. The comics aren't even consistent with the fish talking thing (the New 52 apparently got rid of it).

When people complain about DC being emberassed by their characters I can't help but feel what they're really saying is DC isn't using a version of the character they like. Aquaman, like all long running characters, has been depicted in various ways. This is just one of them. 

If you want an Aquaman who talks to fish I'm sure the Brave and the Bold cartoon is up your alley.

----------


## Vakanai

Question - how is Momoa's Aquaman like a surfer dude?

----------


## BatmanJones

> Question - how is Momoa's Aquaman like a surfer dude?


He wasn't. He was a fun-loving, hard-living adventurer in a silly movie that didn't do any of its characters any favors.

----------


## Agent Z

You got to love how after all the wailing over characters being "too dark", Momoa's Aquaman is getting crappem on for being too light.

----------


## Confuzzled

I prefer the free spirit/super chill vibe of Momoa Aquaman to traditional Arthur.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah it will only be a possibility down the line. But I have faith in the upcoming solo movies.


I'm really rooting for the Aquaman movie because I like Momoa a lot and he deserves to be a big star. But I don't see how the DCEU has earned any faith.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm really rooting for the Aquaman movie because I like Momoa a lot and he deserves to be a big star. *But I don't see how the DCEU has earned any faith.*


Well they managed to make the first successful female superhero movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Didn't Aquaman threaten Flash with a piranha attack?


Sharks.

And DCEU Aquaman has a much more interesting personality than anything I've ever seen in the comics, so as far as I'm concerned, it's an improvement.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I'm really rooting for the Aquaman movie because I like Momoa a lot and he deserves to be a big star. But I don't see how the DCEU has earned any faith.


You understand that not everyone agrees with you that the previous movies were terrible, right? Why, some of us even LIKED them in spite of their flaws.

----------


## Elmo

yeah it's a little hurtful that people can't understand that other people have found substance in movies they happen to dislike

like literally who cares

----------


## Carabas

> Well they managed to make the first successful female superhero movie.


That gives them a 20% success ratio.

----------


## Agent Z

> That gives them a 20% success ratio.


They also have the Dark Knight Trilogy, the first Burton Batman films and while your mileage may vary, MoS was a lot more liked than most people remember.

----------


## Carabas

> You understand that not everyone agrees with you that the previous movies were terrible, right? Why, some of us even LIKED them in spite of their flaws.


Hey, I liked Suicide Squad, despite Deadshot not acting like Deadshot in the slightest, and on a technical level that was the worst DCEU film of the lot until Justice League set new standards of how to not make a movie not good.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That gives them a 20% success ratio.


And that's 20% more than Marvel when it comes to female led superhero films.

----------


## Carabas

> And that's 20% more than Marvel when it comes to female led superhero films.


But about 80% less than Marvel haswith superhero films in general.

More to the point: is Aquaman a female lead film? And if not, how is the DCEU's success with those relevant to Aquaman?

----------


## Confuzzled

> But about 80% less than Marvel haswith superhero films in general.
> 
> More to the point: is Aquaman a female lead film? And if not, how is the DCEU's success with those relevant to Aquaman?


Not 80% as The Dark World, Age of Ultron etc. can legitimately be called as fails. Also, the first 5 MCU films pale in comparison to Wonder Woman.

As for Aquaman, people who have watched the film have said Mera is basically the co-lead, so there. But more to the point: it's laughable that Marvel is 19 films in, 10 years old, and is yet to have a female led film.

----------


## Carabas

> Not 80% as The Dark World, Age of Ultron etc. can legitimately be called as fails. Also, the first 5 MCU films pale in comparison to Wonder Woman.
> 
> As for Aquaman, people who have watched the film have said Mera is basically the co-lead, so there. But more to the point: it's laughable that Marvel is 19 films in, 10 years old, and is yet to have a female led film.


19 movies, two mediocre ones (Thor 2, Iron Man 3 [seriously, how is Age Of Ultron in any way at all a failure]), that's just shy of a 90% success rating.

And we know why there haven't been any female lead or minority lead movies at Marvel until recently: Trump supporter Ike Perlmutter, and Feige took steps to remove him from the studio.

Anyway, how is any of this at all relevant to the DCEU having one good movie out of 5 so far, hence me believing Aquaman will be good when I see it, despite me really wanting it to be good very hard?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I am neither confident in DC/WB nor do I think things as they are are totally doomed. All it will take is a few good movies to get this turned around, but they have to prove it first. I REALLY want Aquaman and Shazam to be good, and I want another Superman movie with a different creative team behind the camera, along with Flash, GL, and any number of other properties.

But they don't have my faith in anything now aside from Wonder Woman 2, and that's down to Jenkins and nobody else. I'm not entirely confident they won't find away to screw things up with that either.

----------


## Confuzzled

> 19 movies, two mediocre ones (Thor 2, Iron Man 3 [seriously, how is Age Of Ultron in any way at all a failure]), *that's just shy of a 90% success rating.*


What rating? And once the initial excitement died down, many people's opinion of the film has taken a turn for the worse. Also, Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2 and Thor are poor to mediocre as well and their rating would have been lesser if they had come out now. The first 5 MCU flicks other than Iron Man aren't all that (even The First Avenger has a boring second half) but as they were unknown characters with less attention given to them at the time, they got a major pass. 




> And we know why there haven't been any female lead or minority lead movies at Marvel until recently: Trump supporter Ike Perlmutter, and Feige took steps to remove him from the studio.


It's still Marvel though and 19 films and 10 years is a long ass time. DCEU haters cannot shut the hell up after just 5 DC films (and the hate was as strong even before BvS came out). 




> Anyway, how is any of this at all relevant to the DCEU having one good movie out of 5 so far, hence me believing Aquaman will be good when I see it, despite me really wanting it to be good very hard?


Coz you mistake your personal opinions as objective, catch all facts. Your previous statement "But I don't see how the DCEU has earned any faith." doesn't allude to DC not meeting _your own opinion_. It seems like a blanket statement. So I just pointed out an aspect (successful female led superhero films) where people can say the DCEU has earned much more faith than their big rival.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I am neither confident in DC/WB nor do I think things as they are are totally doomed. All it will take is a few good movies to get this turned around, but they have to prove it first. I REALLY want Aquaman and Shazam to be good, and I want another Superman movie with a different creative team behind the camera, along with Flash, GL, and any number of other properties.
> 
> But they don't have my faith in anything now aside from Wonder Woman 2, and that's down to Jenkins and nobody else. I'm not entirely confident they won't find away to screw things up with that either.


To put things into perspective, 3/4 of the poorly received DCEU films so far were by the same director. A director who isn't attached to these films anymore. Ditto for the director of Suicide Squad. If we are to assume Wonder Woman's success was mostly due to Patty Jenkins, isn't it fair to have faith in Aquaman and Shazam whose respective directors have good track records as well?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> To put things into perspective, 3/4 of the poorly received DCEU films so far were by the same director. A director who isn't attached to these films anymore. Ditto for the director of Suicide Squad. If we are to assume Wonder Woman's success was mostly due to Patty Jenkins, isn't it fair to have faith in Aquaman and Shazam whose respective directors have good track records as well?


It's certainly fair to have faith in the directors for these two movies. James Wan hasn't made a critically or financially unsuccessful movie in his entire career. Sandberg has less of a career to evaluate, but he's been successful thus far.

It's also not unreasonable to have faith in Walter Hamada. He's been behind a great many successful movies in recent years. He's already worked with Wan several times, to great success for the both of them. I think he's worked with Sandberg too.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> To put things into perspective, 3/4 of the poorly received DCEU films so far were by the same director. A director who isn't attached to these films anymore. Ditto for the director of Suicide Squad. If we are to assume Wonder Woman's success was mostly due to Patty Jenkins, isn't it fair to have faith in Aquaman and Shazam whose respective directors have good track records as well?


I have faith in the directors, less so the studio.

But yes, the pattern being broken for the most part makes me think this isn't completely doomed. But Ayer wasn't Snyder either...,

----------


## Frontier

> Momoa's Aquaman is basically Peter Davids Aquaman without the hook hand and black hair instead of blonde. The comics aren't even consistent with the fish talking thing (the New 52 apparently got rid of it).


The New 52 didn't get rid of it, they just kind of god pedantic about it to downplay the whole "talking to fish" thing, since he can't really talk to them since their brain generally isn't developed enough to hold a conversation (unless they're dolphins)  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> I prefer the free spirit/super chill vibe of Momoa Aquaman to traditional Arthur.


I'm interested to see how Momoa's Aquaman develops since I think he's said he's going to grow more into a more classic Aquaman over the course of his solo movie. 

It might actually be the reverse of Thor's character development in the MCU.

----------


## Gaastra

> Black Panther, Infinity War, and Deadpool 2(Fox not Marvel Studios but still) all in one year. Jeezus, the Marvel brand is having an epic year.


Don't forget ant-man and wasp and marvel rising plus sony has venom and miles Spider-Man. 




> Sharks.
> 
> And DCEU Aquaman has a much more interesting personality than anything I've ever seen in the comics, so as far as I'm concerned, it's an improvement.


He more or less is brave and the bolds version.  Like everyone i'm waiting for the trailer and hope it's good.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I have faith in the directors, less so the studio.
> 
> But yes, the pattern being broken for the most part makes me think this isn't completely doomed. But Ayer wasn't Snyder either...,


As Vanguard said, the hiring of Walter Hamada who has been responsible for New Line Horror's immense success is reassuring for DC's success even outside of their directors. The deals with Ava DuVernay for New Gods, Steven Spielberg for Blackhawks and Cathy Yan for Birds of Prey also seem like the right moves.

As for Ayer, two things: 1.) He wasn't as trusted and experienced a name as James Wan 2.) His original vision for the movie that aligned with Snyder's overall vision probably was more of the same of what critics so heavily opposed in BvS, so that's why WB wanted reshoots. It didn't help that the trailer that became such a success and got people interested reportedly was nothing like the tone of Ayer's initial planned film.

I'm pretty confident James Wan and even Adam Samberg will have stronger and clearer visions than Ayer's, especially now in the post BvS/Wonder Woman landscape when they know what works and what doesn't (we all know it was too late for Justice League anyway).




> I'm interested to see how Momoa's Aquaman develops since I think he's said he's going to grow more into a more classic Aquaman over the course of his solo movie. 
> 
> It might actually be the reverse of Thor's character development in the MCU.


Hopefully a balance between Classic Arthur and Momoa Arthur. Though I'm all for making Comics Arthur more like Momoa Arthur anyway, especially if his performance in _Aquaman_ ends up being very charming and appealing. It's not like Aquaman managed to become a big pop culture sensation with his classic personality.

----------


## Frontier

> Hopefully a balance between Classic Arthur and Momoa Arthur. Though I'm all for making Comics Arthur more like Momoa Arthur anyway, especially if his performance in _Aquaman_ ends up being very charming and appealing. It's not like Aquaman managed to become a big pop culture sensation with his classic personality.


In my experience trying to have a character's portrayal match the movies doesn't generally work out so well when you don't have the actor there to convey it. 

And I think comic Arthur has a too well-defined characterization and history to just suddenly start acting and talking like Momoa, short of a reboot or some kind of Cosmic reinvention changing him to match the movies (which I don't think many fans would want). 

Obviously they've adapted the beard, though depending on who you ask even that's a bit of a stretch. 

Classic Aquaman hasn't been a pop culture sensation, probably because most people associate him with the Aquaman jokes or Aquaman just hasn't been used enough in a prominent or consistent way for their to be a way to judge that one way or another. But classic Aquaman seems to be working very well in the comics.

----------


## Star_Jammer

> yeah it's a little hurtful that people can't understand that other people have found substance in movies they happen to dislike
> 
> like literally who cares


And some people don't consider Zack Snyder God's gift to film-making, but _you_ have a habit of being condescending with _that_ opinion.

So...tit for tat.

----------


## Elmo

> And some people don't consider Zack Snyder God's gift to film-making, but _you_ have a habit of being condescending with _that_ opinion.
> 
> So...tit for tat.


what the heck are you talking about

what does Zack Snyder have to do with anything I just said

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> You understand that not everyone agrees with you that the previous movies were terrible, right? Why, some of us even LIKED them in spite of their flaws.


Yeah, but the critics and most of the audiences didn't feel that way. So, yes some of you guys liked them, but we all want movies that ALL of us (or at least a good amount of us) like. We feel that the DC characters and mythology deserve that. We WANT the general public to be able to see DC as an equal to Marvel, and not as a lesser.




> yeah it's a little hurtful that people can't understand that other people have found substance in movies they happen to dislike
> 
> like literally who cares


Its not us who is giving DCEU movies this perception. Its the critics and general public. You can find substance in these movies, but its not as if you're "right" and everyone else is "wrong." We want movies that everyone can like, not just a small group of people who seem partial to the particular style the DCEU has been employing so far. We need more movies like Wonder Woman and less like Justice League/BvS.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> And some people don't consider Zack Snyder God's gift to film-making, but _you_ have a habit of being condescending with _that_ opinion.
> 
> So...tit for tat.


I have seen precious few people say ANYTHING about Snyder being "God's gift to filmmaking." I've seen plenty of people say "It's not that bad." And that's about it. 

So kindly take your strawman somewhere else.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Yeah, but the critics and most of the audiences didn't feel that way. So, yes some of you guys liked them, but we all want movies that ALL of us (or at least a good amount of us) like. We feel that the DC characters and mythology deserve that. We WANT the general public to be able to see DC as an equal to Marvel, and not as a lesser.


Do you HONESTLY believe that ANY of us don't want that? 

By now, just about everyone is THOROUGHLY aware that a lot of people didn't like Snyder's vision. Most of us are perfectly willing to accept that and want to move forward. That doesn't mean that we should all be sitting around predicting gloom and doom for DC forevermore. 

Snyder's gone. Ayer's gone. We've got a new "Kevin Feige," and a chance to course correct once and for all. Constantly talking like nothing has changed helps no one.

----------


## Star_Jammer

> I have seen precious few people say ANYTHING about Snyder being "God's gift to filmmaking." I've seen plenty of people say "It's not that bad." And that's about it. 
> 
> So kindly take your strawman somewhere else.


I was speaking to one person in particular, who has pretty much said that, claiming Zack to be a genius, film-making visionary that nobody understands.

So please, do not attack someone not speaking to you.

----------


## golgi

I want more Peter Jackson news, if possible.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I want more Peter Jackson news, if possible.


Why? At this point he's done more movies to annoy me than ones I like

----------


## Star_Jammer

> what the heck are you talking about
> 
> what does Zack Snyder have to do with anything I just said


I'm pretty sure I typed plain English.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Do you HONESTLY believe that ANY of us don't want that? 
> 
> By now, just about everyone is THOROUGHLY aware that a lot of people didn't like Snyder's vision. Most of us are perfectly willing to accept that and want to move forward. That doesn't mean that we should all be sitting around predicting gloom and doom for DC forevermore. 
> 
> Snyder's gone. Ayer's gone. We've got a new "Kevin Feige," and a chance to course correct once and for all. Constantly talking like nothing has changed helps no one.


I'm not saying we need to predict doom and gloom, but we should (1) accept that mistakes were made and (2) still be discerning about the future. I for one am absolutely hyped for Aquaman and Shazam and Wonder Woman 2. I have faith in Wan and Jenkins as I've seen what they both can do. I'm just hoping that we don't count our chickens before they hatch.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Momoa Aquaman might be better for a Year One take on Arthur or folded into another character like Koryak or arthur jr or the arthur sword of atlantis clone guy.

I'm not too sure about Aquaman's solo film but here's hoping the trailer changes my mind.

----------


## Elmo

> Its not us who is giving DCEU movies this perception. Its the critics and general public. You can find substance in these movies, but its not as if you're "right" and everyone else is "wrong." We want movies that everyone can like, not just a small group of people who seem partial to the particular style the DCEU has been employing so far. We need more movies like Wonder Woman and less like Justice League/BvS.


I don't know man you're kinda putting words in my mouth. I never said I'm right and everyone else is wrong and when you say "this perception," that seems to imply that I wrote about a perception the DCEU movies have in the first place which is incorrect

----------


## Elmo

> I'm pretty sure I typed plain English.


You did but none of it was relevant to my post lmao

----------


## Star_Jammer

> You did but none of it was relevant to my post lmao


That you are have a habit of being condescending regarding opinionated things, yet "waaaaah I'm a victim of opinion abuse" all the same?

Yup, it was totally relevant.

----------


## golgi

> Why? At this point he's done more movies to annoy me than ones I like


Cause he's a solid director and he doesn't annoy me.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I don't know man you're kinda putting words in my mouth. I never said I'm right and everyone else is wrong and when you say "this perception," that seems to imply that I wrote about a perception the DCEU movies have in the first place which is incorrect


You were talking about how it was sad how others couldn't understand that how people could find substance in these films, but the thing is, those who point out the flaws with these films understand that *some* fans could like them. But the fact is that these fans are just expressing their disagreement with you and stating that the general perception isn't favorable. Its not a personal attack, nor is it an indictment of your taste.

----------


## Elmo

> That you are have a habit of being condescending regarding opinionated things, yet "waaaaah I'm a victim of opinion abuse" all the same?
> 
> Yup, it was totally relevant.


I think you have me confused dude. You're dreaming. Literally all I said was it sucks when people don't realize that other people can find substance in the films they happen to dislike. It was me lamenting on films in general and wishing for better discussions instead of this nonsense where you've literally just pulled fake context from out of nowhere just to talk down to me for stuff that isn't even true. Do something more productive with your time please because I wasn't even talking about victim abuse or Zack Snyder of any of the stuff you're insinuating

----------


## Elmo

> You were talking about how it was sad how others couldn't understand that how people could find substance in these films, but the thing is, those who point out the flaws with these films understand that *some* fans could like them. But the fact is that these fans are just expressing their disagreement with you and stating that the general perception isn't favorable. Its not a personal attack, nor is it an indictment of your taste.


Dude I haven't posted in this thread in weeks so who exactly could be disagreeing with me? I appreciate you clarifying that it wasn't an attack on my taste however I never even made a comment about my taste in the post we're discussing. I said nothing about myself, never mentioned anyone specific in this thread, never mentioned any DCEU films or Zack Snyder, and yet people want to come at me searching in the dark, trying to claim I was saying this or that when most times it is never the case. When people try to say I'm condescending or claiming that I'm a victim of 'opinion abuse' all I have to do is show them discussions like these where I have said practically nothing and people are still able to find hidden meanings in my post.

----------


## Elmo

Regardless of people's opinions on the DCEU or whatever the general perception is doesn't matter to me. My post wasn't about that if some person took it as shade or a post targeting people in this thread you are sorely mistaken and I'm sorry for the confusion. All I was doing was making a post in agreement with someone else while trying to add to the discussion

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Dude I haven't posted in this thread in weeks so who exactly could be disagreeing with me? I appreciate you clarifying that it wasn't an attack on my taste however I never even made a comment about my taste in the post we're discussing. I said nothing about myself, never mentioned anyone specific in this thread, never mentioned any DCEU films or Zack Snyder, and yet people want to come at me searching in the dark, trying to claim I was saying this or that when most times it is never the case. When people try to say I'm condescending or claiming that I'm a victim of 'opinion abuse' all I have to do is show them discussions like these where I have said practically nothing and people are still able to find hidden meanings in my post.


You literally posted this yesterday:




> yeah it's a little hurtful that people can't understand that other people have found substance in movies they happen to dislike
> 
> like literally who cares


I'm just clarifying for you that its not that people can't understand that you and some others like these films. They just don't agree with you. That's not an indictment on your opinion. They're just sharing their own.

----------


## Elmo

> You literally posted this yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just clarifying for you that its not that people can't understand that you and some others like these films. They just don't agree with you. That's not an indictment on your opinion. They're just sharing their own.


Let me make this the last post on this matter:

I said "people." Not "all people," not "[specific person]." I am talking about people who can't understand that people find substance in certain movies that they happen to dislike. You assumed I was talking about people who disagree with my opinion, which is really odd because that's not even what I said. if people disagree with my opinion, that's fine, it still was not what I was talking about. You're trying to correct me or "clarify" things when the post itself wasn't even about the DCEU. I made a small remark about films in general and you went off assuming.

If you're still confused about it (even though I've explained it 3 or 4 times now) feel free to PM me, this thread has been derailed enough over this pointless discussion

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> 


Lol. Batman would be thrilled with that GUN.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Lol. Batman would be thrilled with that GUN.


Whedon ended up giving him a more "moderate" gun...  :Big Grin:

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Justice League Art Book (Russian Edition)...

----------


## Slowpokeking

I wonder after Thor and Black Panther, ppl are gonna get tired of "struggle between relatives to the throne" in superhero movies, how is Aquaman going to give some fresh new elements?

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder after Thor and Black Panther, ppl are gonna get tired of "struggle between relatives to the throne" in superhero movies, how is Aquaman going to give some fresh new elements?


Uh...it's all underwater  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Jokerz79

> I wonder after Thor and Black Panther, ppl are gonna get tired of "struggle between relatives to the throne" in superhero movies, how is Aquaman going to give some fresh new elements?


The one element Aquaman has those films didn't is an outsider coming to the throne as the rightful heir and how would a isolated society handle it.

----------


## Elmo

> I wonder after Thor and Black Panther, ppl are gonna get tired of "struggle between relatives to the throne" in superhero movies, how is Aquaman going to give some fresh new elements?


It depends on which origin they use for Ocean Master. it's only in the New 52 where he ever had a legitimate claim to the throne so it'll probably be that one

----------


## Slowpokeking

MOS had the best villains, Zod and his crew got the best characterization, best action scene and the coolest technology.

----------


## Charmed

Man of Steel is so re-watchable for me. It's my second favorite DCEU movie, but it is the only one I can watch again without getting bored.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I wonder after Thor and Black Panther, ppl are gonna get tired of "struggle between relatives to the throne" in superhero movies, how is Aquaman going to give some fresh new elements?


That's a good question. I think the fact that Arthur was raised in human society first could be a big help. As was mentioned, the outsider status gives it a decent twist. (Console him Mera!)

Which could open an interesting door if they go the route of showing the surface world and Atlantis in tension. With BP we saw an isolationist Wakanda almost turn imperialist with the conflict occurring totally internally, but with Atlantis we actually have the opportunity for tensions to build throughout the movie and come to a boil, with Aquaman having to play peacekeeper and finally gain the respect of both worlds by avoiding catastrophe and revealing the villainous conspiracy behind the scenes. It's still a little cliched but it could work. They just have to make Orm somewhat sympathetic just like Killmonger and Koba from POTA were (the latter less so but still.) I'd love to see giant tentacles draped over the White House, or at least submarine standoffs.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> That's a good question. I think the fact that Arthur was raised in human society first could be a big help. As was mentioned, the outsider status gives it a decent twist. (Console him Mera!)
> 
> Which could open an interesting door if they go the route of showing the surface world and Atlantis in tension. With BP we saw an isolationist Wakanda almost turn imperialist with the conflict occurring totally internally, but with Atlantis we actually have the opportunity for tensions to build throughout the movie and come to a boil, with Aquaman having to play peacekeeper and finally gain the respect of both worlds by avoiding catastrophe and revealing the villainous conspiracy behind the scenes. It's still a little cliched but it could work. They just have to make Orm somewhat sympathetic just like Killmonger and Koba from POTA were (the latter less so but still.) I'd love to see giant tentacles draped over the White House, or at least submarine standoffs.


How about Black Mantra? What kind of role will he play?

----------


## The_Lurk

> How about Black Mantra? What kind of role will he play?


Arthurs best and most trusted friend forever since childhood. At least till his parent/wife/other best friend gets killed during the struggle for the throne and he blames Arthur for it, swears revenge and dons the sequel ready BM suit in an after credits scene  :Smile: 

No idea, just guessing.

----------


## Confuzzled

Manta's suit is confirmed to appear much before the post-credits.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Raijin

Idk i think it's a mistake that they are using both Ocean Master and Black Manta in the first movie. They should spread it out because what other villains are they going to use for future movies? He doesn't have that many villains to choose from. King Shark is a jobber, Scavenger is basically underwater vulture.

----------


## Agent Z

> Idk i think it's a mistake that they are using both Ocean Master and Black Manta in the first movie. They should spread it out because what other villains are they going to use for future movies? He doesn't have that many villains to choose from. King Shark is a jobber, Scavenger is basically underwater vulture.


Manta probably won't be the main villain for this film and the movie could be his start to villainy.

----------


## Confuzzled

I'm still expecting _Aquaman_'s post/mid-credit scene being Lex recruiting Manta for the Legion of Doom/Secret Society.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Almost 6 months until release and nothing no poster, no teaser, no trailer....should we be worried? All we've got is the logo...

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Almost 6 months until release and nothing no poster, no teaser, no trailer....should we be worried? All we've got is the logo...


Nope. James Wan already made it perfectly clear: a there is a trailer. He's just not releasing it until the CGI is finished to his liking. Wan is a known perfectionist and he won't release something that's half-ass.

We also know that footage was shown at Cinemacon and just about every online source who claimed to have seen it thought it was great.

Wan is probably also waiting for the right time to release. Right now, the world's focus is on Infinity War and it's record-breaking success, Deadpool 2 just dropped, and Solo is coming out in just a few days.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> How about Black Mantra? What kind of role will he play?


I'm guessing he'd be the one behind the scenes causing false flag attacks between the surface and Atlantis and the more active villain before Orm is revealed to be behind it all, I think.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Almost 6 months until release...


It's coming out in the third week of December, not the third week of November.





> Nope. James Wan already made it perfectly clear: a there is a trailer. He's just not releasing it until the CGI is finished to his liking. Wan is a known perfectionist and he won't release something that's half-ass.
> 
> We also know that footage was shown at Cinemacon and just about every online source who claimed to have seen it thought it was great.
> 
> Wan is probably also waiting for the right time to release. Right now, the world's focus is on Infinity War and it's record-breaking success, Deadpool 2 just dropped, and Solo is coming out in just a few days.


There's a chance it will drop in the second week of June in time for the release of WB's _Ocean's 8_. Depends on how much the VFX is completed of course.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> I'm guessing he'd be the one behind the scenes causing false flag attacks between the surface and Atlantis and the more active villain before Orm is revealed to be behind it all, I think.


Isn't he the archnemesis of Aquaman? Let him play a secondary villain?

----------


## Frontier

> How about Black Mantra? What kind of role will he play?


If we go by Wan he's apparently the "villain" to Ocean Master's antagonist, since he's single-mindedly trying to hunt down Arthur for revenge and will probably complicate the balance between the surface and Atlantis.



> Isn't he the archnemesis of Aquaman? Let him play a secondary villain?


That's probably what will keep him alive to pop up in future movies and join the Legion of Doom  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Slowpokeking

Zack Snyder tried too hard to make the dark and gritty tone, I just don't think it fit Superman too well.

MoS got very awesome villains and action scenes though.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Will Aquaman end with "Martha, no, Atlanna" then Orm stopped?

----------


## Johnny

WB hasn't been shy about pathetically making fun of themselves lately, so who knows.

----------


## Frontier

> WB hasn't been shy about pathetically making fun of themselves lately, so who knows.


Well, better to be able to laugh at yourself then to just get laughed at...

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Well, better to be able to laugh at yourself then to just get laughed at...


They're getting laughed at no matter what. May as well try to have some freaking pride in your work. They tried something new and different in an industry in which people CONSTANTLY complain about lack of originality. It didn't work. It happens. No need to constantly crap on your attempt. Especially not when WB is actually RESPONSIBLE for a lot of the reasons why their attempt didn't go over as well as it might have.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> 


That is such B.S. by Snyder. I'm glad he didn't get to make those movies. A DCEU that turned Injustice would have been the worst thing imaginable for Superman and every casual fan's opinion of him and perception of what the DC Universe is all about. Terrible.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> That is such B.S. by Snyder. I'm glad he didn't get to make those movies. A DCEU that turned Injustice would have been the worst thing imaginable for Superman and every casual fan's opinion of him and perception of what the DC Universe is all about. Terrible.


Injustice worked BECAUSE it was entirely new to the mainstream DC universe, without the main universe ppl are not going to like it at all. And it's the last material you are gonna use when DCEU is building its main universe.

----------


## Confuzzled

But Snyder's vision was obviously _not_ Injustice. He was going to use Lois to ground and save Kal-El's humanity. These premature jumping the gun reactions are what pushed WB to be so paranoid in the first place, which in turn led to JL being messier than whatever the original vision was and losing any semblance of a tone or identity .

----------


## Slowpokeking

> But Snyder's vision was obviously _not_ Injustice. He was going to use Lois to ground and save Kal-El's humanity. These premature jumping the gun reactions are what pushed WB to be so paranoid in the first place, which in turn led to JL being messier than whatever the original vision was and losing any semblance of a tone or identity .


Superman loves Lois, sure. But I don't think Lois should be the only one he care so much about, he loves humanity.

Also in Injustice, Superman didn't lose himself simply because of Lois' death, but he was very mad at the world unable to prevent the villain from breaking out and do harm again, which is why he went that route. It was actually right, the villains were never truly kept in jail due to their popularity, just 99% of the time those who suffer are just random ppl .

----------


## Confuzzled

> Superman loves Lois, sure. But I don't think Lois should be the only one he care so much about, he loves humanity.
> 
> Also in Injustice, Superman didn't lose himself simply because of Lois' death, but he was very mad at the world unable to prevent the villain from breaking out and do harm again, which is why he went that route. It was actually right, the villains were never truly kept in jail due to their popularity, just 99% of the time those who suffer are just random ppl .


From what I understood and have heard of Snyder's original idea, Superman was going to be "brainwashed/manipulated" by Apokiliptians to become Dark Supes (there was also a report saying Steppenwolf lied to him saying Batman had killed Lois).

So that was the reason they needed Lois to be "The Key". To prove she was still alive and use Kal-El's feelings for her to find himself again. 

Also, the way Clark was raised by the Kents in the DCEU, his love for _all humans_ would be challenged by trauma and a damaging lie that a human man (Batman) snatched away the love of Clark's life. But it was all supposed to be just temporary unlike Injustice.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> From what I understood and have heard of Snyder's original idea, Superman was going to be "brainwashed/manipulated" by Apokiliptians to become Dark Supes (there was also a report saying Steppenwolf lied to him saying Batman had killed Lois).
> 
> So that was the reason they needed Lois to be "The Key". To prove she was still alive and use Kal-El's feelings for her to find himself again. 
> 
> Also, the way Clark was raised by the Kents in the DCEU, his love for _all humans_ would be challenged by trauma and a damaging lie that a human man (Batman) snatched away the love of Clark's life. But it was all supposed to be just temporary unlike Injustice.


Yeah, a temporarily brainwashed/manipulated Superman and Injustice Superman are two different things. I wouldn’t want evil Superman on the screen more than a couple of minutes but I have a feeling Snyder’s vision of the return might have felt more rewarding in the end; something a little more impactful than “I’m also a fan of justice; this guy still giving you trouble? Clobber!”

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yeah, a temporarily brainwashed/manipulated Superman and Injustice Superman are two different things. I wouldn’t want evil Superman on the screen more than a couple of minutes but I have a feeling Snyder’s vision of the return might have felt more rewarding in the end; something a little more impactful than “I’m also a fan of justice; this guy still giving you trouble? Clobber!”


Is a brainwashed/manipulated Superman really that much better? It's not even mind controlled -- just manipulated. Crazy. Superman is not dumb and is a reporter, for crying out loud. So for a brand new generation of fans the DCEU was going to showcase the greatest hero ever as a fool who cannot even fact check a lie by obviously bad aliens and proceeds to do their bidding? I mean, come on. It would have done way more harm than good and would have lasted until AT LEAST the midway point of JL part 2 according to reports. That's 4 years of the DCEU Superman being bad in people's minds. Totally unacceptable in my mind and even though Whedon's movie was still bad, it was the lesser of two evils. Not to mention that even if you find Snyder's vision interesting (and I admit that his visions and concepts are usually interesting on paper), his execution was probably going to be okay at best. I think with the DCEU being the current state (Hamada guiding things to a more controlled direction), we're better off with Snyder not having made those movies.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Also, how the hell was the rest of the DCEU supposed to be built out if an evil Superman is patrolling earth? WTF. So glad Snyder didn't make those movies.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Is a brainwashed/manipulated Superman really that much better? It's not even mind controlled -- just manipulated. Crazy. Superman is not dumb and is a reporter, for crying out loud. So for a brand new generation of fans the DCEU was going to showcase the greatest hero ever as a fool who cannot even fact check a lie by obviously bad aliens and proceeds to do their bidding? I mean, come on. It would have done way more harm than good and would have lasted until AT LEAST the midway point of JL part 2 according to reports. That's 4 years of the DCEU Superman being bad in people's minds. Totally unacceptable in my mind and even though Whedon's movie was still bad, it was the lesser of two evils. Not to mention that even if you find Snyder's vision interesting (and I admit that his visions and concepts are usually interesting on paper), his execution was probably going to be okay at best. I think with the DCEU being the current state (Hamada guiding things to a more controlled direction), we're better off with Snyder not having made those movies.


He suffered the trauma of death, and his mind wouldn't have exactly been "rational" when he was just resurrected and ripped out of his element. Much less so when subjected to Apokoliptan practices of brainwashing/manipulation upon resurrection.




> Also, how the hell was the rest of the DCEU supposed to be built out if an evil Superman is patrolling earth? WTF. So glad Snyder didn't make those movies.


You are aware that this was meant to last only till the third act of the Justice League movie, right?

If you are not a fan of Snyder's stuff, then cool. But this hyperbolic and sometimes flat out _inaccurate_ assumptions and claims about his plans and ideas online had a snowball effect and played a big part in WB execs blinking and somehow making things even worse for Justice League's final cut.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> You are aware that this was meant to last only till the third act of the Justice League movie, right?
> 
> If you are not a fan of Snyder's stuff, then cool. But this hyperbolic and sometimes flat out _inaccurate_ assumptions and claims about his plans and ideas online had a snowball effect and played a big part in WB execs blinking and somehow making things even worse for Justice League's final cut.


You are incorrect. Snyder has confirmed that he wouldn't turn back to normal until JL part 2.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Yup, the Darkseid/Knightmare stuff would've played out in JL part 2 and another movie (Snyder planned a 5 movies story-arc).

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Yup, the Darkseid/Knightmare stuff would've played out in JL part 2 and another movie (Snyder planned a 5 movies story-arc).


Thank you.

----------


## gbshabo

Jake Gyllenhaal in talks to play Spiderman villain. So i would presume that if this is true, that he is no longer being considered for batman.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Jake Gyllenhaal in talks to play Spiderman villain. So i would presume that if this is true, that he is no longer being considered for batman.


Maybe, maybe not. I personally think this might be a move by his agent. If you really wanted the Batman role, but were getting fed up waiting for it, what would be the best way to get WB to decide one way or the other?

----------


## Agent Z

> You are incorrect. Snyder has confirmed that he wouldn't turn back to normal until JL part 2.


Which would still mean you have one film out of four in which Superman is brainwashed into being evil. Not the same as Injustice where he becomes a tyrant by his own free will.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Remember that the DCEU's foundation was not stellar either. 

Man of Steel was a fine sit with a few problems and then they tried to play catch up with Marvel and made the single worst major superhero movie of the decade. It redefined a bad superhero movie in today's climate. Then you have Suicide Squad which at best was mediocre. Not to mention that the only profitable theater venture they had was a Batman trilogy that's world famous, the Nolan Batman was Batman for the general audience, and to see him suddenly become a killer with no context? Even if Snyder's vision went through the mass public was going to reject it. 

You had a darker universe that nobody asked for with no context for what's going to be your big selling point (The Justice League). It's no wonder this didn't take off because you also have the biggest competitor (Marvel) being the studio that can make movies that appeal to so many people it doesn't matter if it doesn't appeal to us. Kids like it, adults like it, it's bringing people into comic stores, it's selling toys, it's as big as Star Wars right now. And then to just go out and do everything the audience rejected long ago? Sure hindsight is 2020 but this was almost every wrong move.

----------


## Agent Z

> Is a brainwashed/manipulated Superman really that much better? It's not even mind controlled -- just manipulated. Crazy. Superman is not dumb and is a reporter, for crying out loud. So for a brand new generation of fans the DCEU was going to showcase the greatest hero ever as a fool who cannot even fact check a lie by obviously bad aliens and proceeds to do their bidding? I mean, come on. It would have done way more harm than good and would have lasted until AT LEAST the midway point of JL part 2 according to reports. That's 4 years of the DCEU Superman being bad in people's minds. Totally unacceptable in my mind and even though Whedon's movie was still bad, it was the lesser of two evils. Not to mention that even if you find Snyder's vision interesting (and I admit that his visions and concepts are usually interesting on paper), his execution was probably going to be okay at best. I think with the DCEU being the current state (Hamada guiding things to a more controlled direction), we're better off with Snyder not having made those movies.


What does intelligence have to do with resisting mind control? Or did you think Darkseid's mind control only works on people who are stupid?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> What does intelligence have to do with resisting mind control? Or did you think Darkseid's mind control only works on people who are stupid?


Read the post and info. It WASN'T going to be mind control. Just being lied to.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Which would still mean you have one film out of four in which Superman is brainwashed into being evil. Not the same as Injustice where he becomes a tyrant by his own free will.



No, not the same as Injustice. But a HORRIBLE decision to move the universe forward over 3 freaking movies (JL, JL2, unnamed 3rd part that Snyder has called out now).

----------


## Agent Z

> Read the post and info. It WASN'T going to be mind control. Just being lied to.


I read the post. they mention nothing about being lied to. Where are you getting that from?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I read the post. they mention nothing about being lied to. Where are you getting that from?


Cavill's latest interview looking back at JL and through Snyder's Vero posts over the last 3 weeks. It most definitely wouldn't be mind control. Sounds like they take advantage of him coming back to life and just tell him Lois is dead, Batman killed her. And that's all it takes.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

The thing of being lied to is just an unfounded rumor. Snyder just said on Vero that Clark would've become susceptible to the anti-life equation after losing Lois...




> Snyder explains what the Knightmare scene refers to on his Vero...

----------


## BlackClaw

> Remember that the DCEU's foundation was not stellar either. 
> 
> Man of Steel was a fine sit with a few problems and then they tried to play catch up with Marvel and made the single worst major superhero movie of the decade. It redefined a bad superhero movie in today's climate. Then you have Suicide Squad which at best was mediocre. Not to mention that the only profitable theater venture they had was a Batman trilogy that's world famous, the Nolan Batman was Batman for the general audience, and to see him suddenly become a killer with no context? Even if Snyder's vision went through the mass public was going to reject it. 
> 
> You had a darker universe that nobody asked for with no context for what's going to be your big selling point (The Justice League). It's no wonder this didn't take off because you also have the biggest competitor (Marvel) being the studio that can make movies that appeal to so many people it doesn't matter if it doesn't appeal to us. Kids like it, adults like it, it's bringing people into comic stores, it's selling toys, it's as big as Star Wars right now. And then to just go out and do everything the audience rejected long ago? Sure hindsight is 2020 but this was almost every wrong move.


Amen to all of this. And I also agree with your statement on Man of Steel. It was a good movie IMO, but the DCEU killed any good will it had with me when Snyder decided to kill off Superman in BvS. Now doing an adaptation of "Death of Superman" isn't a bad idea, hell it's one of the most defining moments in the characters history. It's just the fact that Supes was killed off in only the second goddamn movie in the franchise is what pissed me off. The minute they did that, that just singlehandedly destroyed the franchises foundation in my eyes.

----------


## Agent Z

> The thing of being lied to is just an unfounded rumor. Snyder just said on Vero that Clark would've become susceptible to the anti-life equation after losing Lois...


Yeah i figured as much.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Is a brainwashed/manipulated Superman really that much better? It's not even mind controlled -- just manipulated. Crazy. Superman is not dumb and is a reporter, for crying out loud. So for a brand new generation of fans the DCEU was going to showcase the greatest hero ever as a fool who cannot even fact check a lie by obviously bad aliens and proceeds to do their bidding? I mean, come on. It would have done way more harm than good and would have lasted until AT LEAST the midway point of JL part 2 according to reports. That's 4 years of the DCEU Superman being bad in people's minds. Totally unacceptable in my mind and even though Whedon's movie was still bad, it was the lesser of two evils. Not to mention that even if you find Snyder's vision interesting (and I admit that his visions and concepts are usually interesting on paper), his execution was probably going to be okay at best. I think with the DCEU being the current state (Hamada guiding things to a more controlled direction), we're better off with Snyder not having made those movies.


Being lied to by obvious bad aliens is something that would require a convincing deception. Either mind control or a direct vision. I mean Superman's memories being foggy in the cut we got doesn't undermine him, it was temporary and he eventually went back to his old self, so I don't see this being much different. But certainly there was something else planned that might have flowed better. 4 years of the DCEU being bad in people's minds? I can't help what the general public thinks, but Snyder's Superman is certainly not a villain, and anyone that argues that is desperate to see a one-dimensional version of the character on screen. 

I'm not arguing Superman doing Darkseid's bidding and killing people for half a movie would be acceptable. I'm saying a newly reborn Superman being misled, brainwashed, and/or angry temporarily wouldn't be that much different than what we got. His return deserved more of an arc and it was chopped up. We can only speculate and cherrypick rumors as to what exactly was planned.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Amen to all of this. And I also agree with your statement on Man of Steel. It was a good movie IMO, but the DCEU killed any good will it had with me when Snyder decided to kill off Superman in BvS. Now doing an adaptation of "Death of Superman" isn't a bad idea, hell it's one of the most defining moments in the characters history. It's just the fact that Supes was killed off in only the second goddamn movie in the franchise is what pissed me off. The minute they did that, that just singlehandedly destroyed the franchises foundation in my eyes.


Snyder isn't fully to blame the is WB to blame too they've wanted to kill Superman for decades thinking his death was this great story and would be a money maker. Truth is the death is generic and was big because it was a spectacle and the shock value. Not WB or Snyder realized the real stories of value are Funeral for a Friend and Reign of Supermen. But for them to have value you have to get the audience to care about the character and that takes time.

----------


## Slowpokeking

> Being lied to by obvious bad aliens is something that would require a convincing deception. Either mind control or a direct vision. I mean Superman's memories being foggy in the cut we got doesn't undermine him, it was temporary and he eventually went back to his old self, so I don't see this being much different. But certainly there was something else planned that might have flowed better. 4 years of the DCEU being bad in people's minds? I can't help what the general public thinks, but Snyder's Superman is certainly not a villain, and anyone that argues that is desperate to see a one-dimensional version of the character on screen. 
> 
> I'm not arguing Superman doing Darkseid's bidding and killing people for half a movie would be acceptable. I'm saying a newly reborn Superman being misled, brainwashed, and/or angry temporarily wouldn't be that much different than what we got. His return deserved more of an arc and it was chopped up. We can only speculate and cherrypick rumors as to what exactly was planned.


No thanks, DCEU Superman has been suffering for so long and have him do that would be overkill.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjDiorVA22S/

----------


## Johnny

Love this!

----------


## Robotman

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BjDiorVA22S/


nice! definitely a completely different vibe from the other DCEU movies. glad to see they're embracing Cap. Marvel, oh i mean "Shazam's" lighter side.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Interesting poster. A bit nervous about two things.

1. Is he going to act like a (silly) 10 year old in adult form? Wasn't ever a fan of that characterization, though I'm not well versed enough to distinguish different voices writers have given him over the years. (Would appreciate input here)

2. The lightning bolt on the chest looks a bit cheap to me. Am I the only one?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BjDiorVA22S/


Looks good! But shouldn't that be a chocolate egg cream he's drinking?  :Wink:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Which would still mean you have one film out of four in which Superman is brainwashed into being evil. Not the same as Injustice where he becomes a tyrant by his own free will.


It would still be yet another film in which we don't get a fully formed Superman. MoS was different and approached it as Clark finding his way, and that was fine. But we didn't get a follow up to develop that naturally. We got rushed into an EVEN DARKER film in which Batman tries to murder a still unsure of himself Superman, and said Superman gets a large chunk of his scenes cut for the theatrical release, and then dies. And then come back in the next film as a brainwashed minion, before FINALLY  (years after we were introduced to him) becoming Superman again, only for no further planned films. His arc would have been considered done. 

You can't seriously think any of this was a good idea? Also, I love Lois Lane and I love their relationship, but this trend of her being the only thing tying him to humanity or being the one thing preventing him from going off the deep end needs to fucking die a thousand deaths already. 




> https://www.instagram.com/p/BjDiorVA22S/


I love this. I hope this film is as great as it looks.

----------


## Slowpokeking

Can't we give Superman a break?

Zack Snyder likes Superman so much but tried SOOO hard to make the hero suffer, which isn't a good approach.

----------


## BlackClaw

Shazam looks pretty cool. Hope we see a trailer for it soon. And speaking of trailers, I'm still waiting on one for Aquaman.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> He needed to be able to bend his body. You find out that a lot of things that look cool are very impractical and it takes a couple of tries making these suits.


https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...31694034239490

Shazam! director David Sandberg on why the lightning bolt looks the way it does.

----------


## Styles

> https://twitter.com/ponysmasher/stat...31694034239490
> 
> Shazam! director David Sandberg on why the lightning bolt looks the way it does.


Makes sense and the costume looks good.

----------


## Styles

Wonder Woman Is Getting A New Costume In The Sequel

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Wonder Woman Is Getting A New Costume In The Sequel


It must not be a permanent costume change, since she's back to wearing the costume she was wearing in the first movie by BvS. 

Just please, don't let it be that white jumpsuit from the mod says.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'd be down for a modified costume.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It must not be a permanent costume change, since she's back to wearing the costume she was wearing in the first movie by BvS. 
> 
> Just please, don't let it be that white jumpsuit from the mod says.


This could be a scenario like Morrison's in Earth One Volume 2, where she has several outfits.

I wouldn't mind seeing the white jumpsuit in a few scenes, it could be fun. Just obviously not to replace the main outfit.

I'm DYING to see what they are trying to do with Cheetah.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> It must not be a permanent costume change, since she's back to wearing the costume she was wearing in the first movie by BvS. 
> 
> Just please, don't let it be that white jumpsuit from the mod says.


Maybe since it's the 80s, the costume department'll change the white jumpsuit into a white suit jacket and pants. Like Don Johnson on Miami Vice. :P

(Given that Wonder Woman 2 takes place in the 80s, all I really want is a synth version of the Wonder Woman theme)

----------


## Frontier

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BjDiorVA22S/


Cool  :Big Grin: .

Definitely a change of pace from other DCEU promotional art (probably deliberately so). 



> 1. Is he going to act like a (silly) 10 year old in adult form? Wasn't ever a fan of that characterization, though I'm not well versed enough to distinguish different voices writers have given him over the years. (Would appreciate input here)


From all indications (down to citing it as _Big_ as a Superhero story), he's going to retain his child personality in his adult form.



> Wonder Woman Is Getting A New Costume In The Sequel


Hard to really form an opinion without getting to actually see it...

----------


## Confuzzled

The new WW costume is apparently armor heavy: https://twitter.com/Daniel_Eliesen/s...24980799037440

----------


## Black_Adam

> Interesting poster. A bit nervous about two things.
> 
> 1. Is he going to act like a (silly) 10 year old in adult form? Wasn't ever a fan of that characterization, though I'm not well versed enough to distinguish different voices writers have given him over the years. (Would appreciate input here)
> 
> 2. The lightning bolt on the chest looks a bit cheap to me. Am I the only one?


1. Exactly that is what I'm worried about. I heard someone say Captain Marvel should be fun not funny, and that is spot on. This poster feels very 90's silly and not in a good way.

2. Someone actually asked this on Twitter the lightning bolt was a bit underwhelming, Sandberg said hey are still working on the effects for it in post, most likely I think it will be glowing with sparks etc.

----------


## Confuzzled

I like the lightning bolt in that image and I like Shazam! being a literal kid playing grown-up. Billy here though is aged up to about 15 so you guys don't have to worry about him being too silly.

Hopefully no "teen horndog" jokes/moments though.  :Stick Out Tongue:  _Spider-Man: Homecoming_ was wise to downplay that aspect.

----------


## Robotman

> I like the lightning bolt in that image and I like Shazam! being a literal kid playing grown-up. Billy here though is aged up to about 15 so you guys don't have to worry about him being too silly.
> 
> Hopefully no "teen horndog" jokes/moments though.  _Spider-Man: Homecoming_ was wise to downplay that aspect.


I hope hes not 15. If they do a trilogy over a 10 year span hed be a 25 year old who transforms into a 35 year old. Not very magical.

----------


## Black_Adam

> I like the lightning bolt in that image and I like Shazam! being a literal kid playing grown-up. Billy here though is aged up to about 15 so you guys don't have to worry about him being too silly.
> 
> Hopefully no "teen horndog" jokes/moments though.  _Spider-Man: Homecoming_ was wise to downplay that aspect.


Not to mention seeing Zachary Levi thirsting for Mary would be a bit awkward lol.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Not to mention seeing Zachary Levi thirsting for Mary would be a bit awkward lol.


She's his sister lol

----------


## Confuzzled

> I hope he’s not 15. If they do a trilogy over a 10 year span he’d be a 25 year old who transforms into a 35 year old. Not very magical.


That actor won't realistically be able to play a character under 14. Even 14 is a stretch TBH.

I see the "magical aspect" baton being passed to the younger Shazam Family kids in sequels. Billy himself could appear in Justice League sequels and potentially any future Teen Titans films in a similar capacity to his role on Young Justice.

----------


## Black_Adam

> She's his sister lol


I thought Sandberg said they wouldn't be related and she could be a possible romantic interest for Billy, but now that you mention it I can't find anything mentioning it so guess we can assume she is his sister in the DCEU.

----------


## justinslot

"Captain Marvel is teenage Billy in an adult superhero body" is not my favorite take on the character, but it's the only one that exists outside comics anymore so it's probably not worth complaining about. That was basically his characterization in JLU and Young Justice.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I could see them doing the Harry Potter route and having each sequel tackle Billy at a different age.

----------


## Carabas

> I could see them doing the Harry Potter route and having each sequel tackle Billy at a different age.


They have a flesh and blood kid actor. They pretty much have no choice in the matter.

----------


## Confuzzled

> They have a flesh and blood kid actor. They pretty much have no choice in the matter.


They could if they wanted (Exhibit A below)

----------


## The_Lurk

80s Wonder Woman costume?  :Big Grin: 






> They could if they wanted (Exhibit A below)


That scene got me off guard when I saw it first and gave me an even stronger uncanny valley vibe than Tarkins scenes did.

edit:
Sorry for that additional big separate attachment of the picture but I have no idea how to remove that.

----------


## Frontier

> The new WW costume is apparently armor heavy: https://twitter.com/Daniel_Eliesen/s...24980799037440


I wonder if it'll resemble her Post-Crisis armor that she'd take out every now and then? 



> *I thought Sandberg said they wouldn't be related and she could be a possible romantic interest for Billy*, but now that you mention it I can't find anything mentioning it so guess we can assume she is his sister in the DCEU.


Man, I hope not...

----------


## Carabas

I expect Chekhov's armour to be shown early on in the movie but only be used in the final 15ish minutes for the final boss fight.

Especially if it even remotely resembles the screaming chicken armour from Kingdom Come.

----------


## Frontier

From the Vegas licensing show:

----------


## Slowpokeking

Just asking, if the movie follows the N52 setting, why wasn't Orm the rightful heir? He has the superior bloodline and Arthur was the illegitimate son both by Atlantis and by human's logic.

----------


## The_Lurk

> Just asking, if the movie follows the N52 setting, why wasn't Orm the rightful heir? He has the superior bloodline and Arthur was the illegitimate son both by Atlantis and by human's logic.


Its save to assume the movie will cherry pick from settings + add its own spin instead of following something to its letter.

----------


## Korath

In New 52, per Atlantis laws, Arthur was the rightful King, being the elder son. Remember that when his ongoing begun, he had stepped down from the throne, reinstating Orm, who had willingly bowed out because he had an older brother.

----------


## Styles

This is pretty funny

----------


## Beantownbrown

Here's a better look at the Aquaman poster

----------


## DKnight

> Here's a better look at the Aquaman poster


I find the poster way too bright. What is DCEU  trying to do? DCEU should stick to what they have.

----------


## Frontier

> Just asking, if the movie follows the N52 setting, why wasn't Orm the rightful heir? He has the superior bloodline and Arthur was the illegitimate son both by Atlantis and by human's logic.





> Its save to assume the movie will cherry pick from settings + add its own spin instead of following something to its letter.





> In New 52, per Atlantis laws, Arthur was the rightful King, being the elder son. Remember that when his ongoing begun, he had stepped down from the throne, reinstating Orm, who had willingly bowed out because he had an older brother.


It seems like the main impetus for Arthur trying to retake the throne from Orm here is because he wants to prevent a war between the surface and Atlantis, so basically _Thrones of Altantis_ without the Justice League.

----------


## Robotman

> It seems like the main impetus for Arthur trying to retake the throne from Orm here is because he wants to prevent a war between the surface and Atlantis, so basically _Thrones of Altantis_ without the Justice League.


with Willem Defoe playing Vulko i bet they're going to have him be a behind the scenes manipulator just like in Throne of Atlantis. probably still thinking that a war between Atlantis and surface is for the greater good.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Here's a better look at the Aquaman poster


I sure hope this is not the "classic" costume that Arthur is rumoured to get in the movie, because yeah that doesn't exactly scream Aquaman to me, in fact I prefer his Justice League look to this.

----------


## Confuzzled

Catwoman is apparently NOT in the Birds of Prey movie

----------


## Frontier

It doesn't seem like the movie is going to be much of a Sirens film, even if Harley is in it, so I'm not surprised if Catwoman isn't in it. 

I'm guessing she'll probably be in the Batman solo (whenever that finally happens).

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> I find the poster way too bright. What is DCEU  trying to do? DCEU should stick to what they have.


Sticking to what they have is why they are in their current situation.

----------


## Carabas

> Catwoman is apparently NOT in the Birds of Prey movie


I'll believe there actually is a Birds of Prey movie when I buy a ticket.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It doesn't seem like the movie is going to be much of a Sirens film, even if Harley is in it, so I'm not surprised if Catwoman isn't in it. 
> 
> I'm guessing she'll probably be in the Batman solo (whenever that finally happens).


Well you know me and what I immediately thought of when I saw this: _So what about our ginger Siren?_  :Stick Out Tongue:  A "not much of a Siren movie" is not the best sign for her inclusion but a film described as a "Harley girl gang" movie would have to really bend over backwards to exclude Ivy.

----------


## Frontier

> Well you know me and what I immediately thought of when I saw this: _So what about our ginger Siren?_  A "not much of a Siren movie" is not the best sign for her inclusion but a film described as a "Harley girl gang" movie would have to really bend over backwards to exclude Ivy.


Well, a "Harley Girl Gang" movie wouldn't really be a Birds of Prey film, so I think whatever direction they go with might factor into whether we see Ivy in this. 

Although I guess Ivy was in the Birds or Prey, albeit not in any memorable way as I can recall, so it might not be too much of a stretch.

----------


## Jabare

> Here's a better look at the Aquaman poster


looks like bad photoshop

I hope that isn't the real poster

----------


## Carabas

> looks like bad photoshop


That's because it is.




> I hope that isn't the real poster


Bad photoshop is unfortunately the way to go for a lot of movie posters these days.

----------


## maxmcco

> I'll believe there actually is a Birds of Prey movie when I buy a ticket.


A lot of people said the same thing about the Shazam movie. Now it's in post-production.

----------


## Jokerz79

> A lot of people said the same thing about the Shazam movie. Now it's in post-production.


Yeah but there is like a dozen other movies they've announced since starting the DCEU that's have had no visible movement so believing when seeing is a good policy.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Well, a "Harley Girl Gang" movie wouldn't really be a Birds of Prey film, so I think whatever direction they go with might factor into whether we see Ivy in this. 
> 
> Although I guess Ivy was in the Birds or Prey, albeit not in any memorable way as I can recall, so it might not be too much of a stretch.


TBF other than Babs, Dinah and Helena, I don't think anyone can be described as having a "memorable BoP stint". Ivy was the only turncoat I guess (though I suspect if they have Harley join the team in the film, that's the role they would reserve for her own self).

----------


## Frontier

> TBF other than Babs, Dinah and Helena, I don't think anyone can be called as a "memorable BoP member". Ivy was the only turncoat I guess (though I suspect if they have Harley join the team in the film, that's the role they would reserve for her own self).


Don't forget about Zinda  :Wink: .

But yeah, when it comes to the Birds it's pretty much Babs, Dinah, and Helena as the core team. Not sure I see Harley fitting into that.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah but there is like a dozen other movies they've announced since starting the DCEU that's have had no visible movement so believing when seeing is a good policy.


Exactly what I was thinking.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

"Take this with a grain of salt as things are constantly changing in the DCEU but I'm hearing the Penguin is possibly the choice to play the main villain in THE BATMAN. Sources add even if Reeves decide to go another route the studio could then make him the main villain in BOP"

"Reeves is still working on the script, so that could always change but of the multiple BIRDS OF PREY scripts submitted, one does have the Penguin as the main heavy. Either way, it seems WB wants this character cast in the universe sooner rather then later."

https://twitter.com/krolljvar/status...96385027883009

----------


## Lightning Rider

> "Take this with a grain of salt as things are constantly changing in the DCEU but I'm hearing the Penguin is possibly the choice to play the main villain in THE BATMAN. Sources add even if Reeves decide to go another route the studio could then make him the main villain in BOP"
> 
> "Reeves is still working on the script, so that could always change but of the multiple BIRDS OF PREY scripts submitted, one does have the Penguin as the main heavy. Either way, it seems WB wants this character cast in the universe sooner rather then later."
> 
> https://twitter.com/krolljvar/status...96385027883009


This is very plausible IMO. "One misses the days when one's biggest concerns were exploding wind-up penguins."

Very reminiscent of "Should do fine against Cats" in TDK. Plus, Gotham has reimagined the character to great success.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I'm starting to wonder if Reeves is the right man for this job. He doesn't seem to be able to land the plane with his story.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> I'm starting to wonder if Reeves is the right man for this job. He doesn't seem to be able to land the plane with his story.


How do you mean?

----------


## Frontier

> "Take this with a grain of salt as things are constantly changing in the DCEU but I'm hearing the Penguin is possibly the choice to play the main villain in THE BATMAN. Sources add even if Reeves decide to go another route the studio could then make him the main villain in BOP"
> 
> "Reeves is still working on the script, so that could always change but of the multiple BIRDS OF PREY scripts submitted, one does have the Penguin as the main heavy. Either way, it seems WB wants this character cast in the universe sooner rather then later."
> 
> https://twitter.com/krolljvar/status...96385027883009


_Returns_ aside, I'm not sure I see Penguin as a main villain, but I could see him definitely playing a major, recurring, role in any Gotham-set movie.  



> Very reminiscent of "Should do fine against Cats" in TDK. Plus, Gotham has reimagined the character to great success.


Emphasis on "reimagined."  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I hope we don't get a skinny Penguin again.

----------


## Vakanai

> _Returns_ aside, I'm not sure I see Penguin as a main villain, but I could see him definitely playing a major, recurring, role in any Gotham-set movie.  
> 
> Emphasis on "reimagined." .
> 
> I hope we don't get a skinny Penguin again.


I didn't mind him being skinny, it worked. Him falling in love with Riddler though...

----------


## Frontier

> I didn't mind him being skinny, it worked. Him falling in love with Riddler though...


It didn't for me. It honestly bothered me more then the Riddler stuff.

----------


## Vakanai

> It didn't for me. It honestly bothered me more then the Riddler stuff.


Really? I mean, he fell in love with the Riddler! There's at least three things wrong with that (Penguin isn't gay, he doesn't love anyone but himself, and he wouldn't be vulnerable with another villain), whereas body weight can change and fluctuate with anyone and isn't tied in with who he is as a character. Being fat or skinny isn't a defining trait like his umbrella and bird theme.

----------


## Frontier

> Really? I mean, he fell in love with the Riddler! There's at least three things wrong with that (Penguin isn't gay, he doesn't love anyone but himself, and he wouldn't be vulnerable with another villain), whereas body weight can change and fluctuate with anyone and isn't tied in with who he is as a character. Being fat or skinny isn't a defining trait like his umbrella and bird theme.


I think his plump physique and the way it plays into people ridiculing and underestimating him is a defining trait of the Penguin, although having said that the show has also never really done much with the umbrella or bird theme either.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Really? I mean, he fell in love with the Riddler! There's at least three things wrong with that (Penguin isn't gay, he doesn't love anyone but himself, and he wouldn't be vulnerable with another villain), whereas body weight can change and fluctuate with anyone and isn't tied in with who he is as a character. *Being fat or skinny isn't a defining trait...*


Neither is being gay or straight. If THAT is what bothered you more than the other changes made to him in _Gotham_ then uh...

----------


## Naked Bat

Penguin being gay can definitely work. But I agree about him needing to be fat and have a strange look.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> Neither is being gay or straight. If THAT is what bothered you more than the other changes made to him in _Gotham_ then uh...


I think he means you can do cardio and lose weight. You can't lift weight and become gay.

----------


## Jokerz79

I just want a Penguin who is a short little fat guy with an umbrella where he puts his umbrella is his business.

----------


## Vanguard-01

So, turns out Aquaman's VFX are being developed by ILM. That's plenty of proof that the movie will be visually gorgeous.

----------


## Slim Shady

I'm excited about Aquaman. It sounds like the director is trying really hard to make it look great.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Penguin being gay can definitely work. But I agree about him needing to be fat and have a strange look.


Robin Lord Taylor admitted that if the Riddler was a woman he'd fall for her anyway. And he also seemed be into Sofia Falcone since he did not take the news of her apparently kissing James Gordon well.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Ezra Miller's first costume test + Snyder's "Flash Facts"...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Jokerz79

> Ezra Miller's first costume test + Snyder's "Flash Facts"...


Man did I hate that Flash suit.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Man did I hate that Flash suit.


Of course, you were supposed to hate it. It was never intended to be permanent. It was just what Barry could throw together from random crap.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Of course, you were supposed to hate it. It was never intended to be permanent. It was just what Barry could throw together from random crap.


Yeah but take Daredevil season 1 I didn't hate the black costume and it was basically the same thing random crap thrown together and building to the red suit. Now to be fair since I don't want any claims of Marvel bias Captain America's costume in Avengers 2012 was awful IMO.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Of course, you were supposed to hate it. It was never intended to be permanent. It was just what Barry could throw together from random crap.


We were "supposed to hate it?" If your rationale is true, then what a terrible decision by the filmmaker. Why would you want the audience to hate anything that's in your movie, even if it was originally intended to be switched out at the very end?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> We were "supposed to hate it?" If your rationale is true, then what a terrible decision by the filmmaker. Why would you want the audience to hate anything that's in your movie, even if it was originally intended to be switched out at the very end?


Because it's part of the whole "Going on a journey" aspect of storytelling. Stories are about change. Character starts out in a crappy costume? Cool to see him finally trade it in for something better. 

It was a cobbled together mess. It was supposed to look like a cobbled together mess. It did it's job.

----------


## Frontier

> So, turns out Aquaman's VFX are being developed by ILM. That's plenty of proof that the movie will be visually gorgeous.


Don't ILM usually do the VFX for DC movies? 



> Because it's part of the whole "Going on a journey" aspect of storytelling. Stories are about change. Character starts out in a crappy costume? Cool to see him finally trade it in for something better. 
> 
> It was a cobbled together mess. It was supposed to look like a cobbled together mess. It did it's job.


That's all well and good but I think that reasoning would make more sense had Flash gotten a better costume during the course of _Justice League_ instead of sticking with the prototype for the whole movie.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Don't ILM usually do the VFX for DC movies?


I'm not sure. Do they? I kind of assumed that if it was appearing in articles and YouTube channels then it must be a pretty big deal instead of just "more of the same."




> That's all well and good but I think that reasoning would make more sense had Flash gotten a better costume during the course of _Justice League_ instead of sticking with the prototype for the whole movie.


Yeah, I would've preferred to see him get a better suit before the end of his introduction. Still, I kinda applaud Snyder for leaving the design of the new suit up to the director of the Flash movie. Gives said director more creative freedom and all that.

----------


## Jabare

> Yeah but take Daredevil season 1 I didn't hate the black costume and it was basically the same thing random crap thrown together and building to the red suit. Now to be fair since I don't want any claims of Marvel bias Captain America's costume in Avengers 2012 was awful IMO.


Daredevil season 1 black suit was cool and worked with the lighting, but the costume he wore in the season 1 finale was butt. Thankfully they fixed it for season 2

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I'm not sure. Do they? I kind of assumed that if it was appearing in articles and YouTube channels then it must be a pretty big deal instead of just "more of the same."


If their Wiki page is up to date and accurate, Aquaman should be their DC Universe debut.

----------


## Vakanai

> Neither is being gay or straight. If THAT is what bothered you more than the other changes made to him in _Gotham_ then uh...


I'm not a fan of switching orientations of long established characters as a general rule, but don't paint me as a homophobe please, you missed the point of my post, Penguin being capable of truly loving someone above himself and being vulnerable is the more unforgivable thing.

----------


## Vakanai

> Robin Lord Taylor admitted that if the Riddler was a woman he'd fall for her anyway. And he also seemed be into Sofia Falcone since he did not take the news of her apparently kissing James Gordon well.


Yeah, Penguin falling for someone instead of just using someone, eh.


Keep in mind here, I actually liked Gotham's Penguin (possibly my favorite version of the character overall, and my favorite character on the show), I was just pointing out that him being skinny is hardly the point where the show most clashes with the comics.

----------


## Robotman

so what are the possible DC movies for 2020? i really don't think the Cyborg movie will happen and i have a feeling that Green Lantern Corps isn't going to be ready. the movie would probably be pretty huge and we haven't heard anything about the production even starting. The Batman movie seems like it's stuck. i guess they're best hope is that the Harley Quinn/Birds of Prey film gets moving. really hoping for a Man of Steel sequel announcement at Comic Con.

----------


## Vakanai

> so what are the possible DC movies for 2020? i really don't think the Cyborg movie will happen and i have a feeling that Green Lantern Corps isn't going to be ready. the movie would probably be pretty huge and we haven't heard anything about the production even starting. The Batman movie seems like it's stuck. i guess they're best hope is that the Harley Quinn/Birds of Prey film gets moving. really hoping for a Man of Steel sequel announcement at Comic Con.


Pretty sure Cyborg will happen at this point so...
Why do you think it won't?

----------


## Jabare

The Cyborg movie isn't happening. That was predicated on the success of Justice League and the rest of the universe

----------


## Robotman

> Pretty sure Cyborg will happen at this point so...
> Why do you think it won't?


As Jabare said, since Justice League tanked it most likely killed any chance Cyborg had for a solo film. Unless they get a big name director to generate hype. The character is a hard sell and the added weight of the Justice League failure killed his chances.

----------


## Johnny

At this point in time, pretty much the only guarantee we have about a DC movie that hasn't started shooting yet is Wonder Woman II. Unless we get some announcements at SDCC, I have the feeling WB would wait and see how Aquaman and Shazam do before announcing more movies. If they do well, maybe they would still consider Cyborg. WB is surely aware that DC has been pushing the character for a while, so I'm thinking if he doesn't get a standalone film, he would likely get the Hulk treatment.

----------


## Frontier

I would think they're still trying to move forward with the _Flash_ movie, since Ezra Miller mentioned meeting with directors, but I'm not sure how much momentum that has at the moment.

----------


## Black_Adam

> so what are the possible DC movies for 2020? i really don't think the Cyborg movie will happen and i have a feeling that Green Lantern Corps isn't going to be ready. the movie would probably be pretty huge and we haven't heard anything about the production even starting. The Batman movie seems like it's stuck. i guess they're best hope is that the Harley Quinn/Birds of Prey film gets moving. really hoping for a Man of Steel sequel announcement at Comic Con.


I would say Birds of Prey is next after Wonder Woman 2, then probably the self contained Joker film or The Batman. After that is anyone's guess suppose the most likely is Flash but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a darkhorse like Black Adam, Blackhawks or New Gods go into production.

I think Reeves is doing just fine on The Batman he says he is working on the script now, the main holdup is probably Affleck who according to latest reports might be reconsidering the role but at this point everyone is just sick of the uncertainty, it's just a farce right now how long this speculation has gone on.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The Cyborg movie isn't happening. That was predicated on the success of Justice League and the rest of the universe


Cyborg wasn't happening much before Justice League came out. Rick Famuyiwa was probably asked to include Vic in the Flash movie because of Cyborg's loss of a solo film. Then the DC movie slate revealed at last year's Comic Con lacked any mention of the Cyborg film.

----------


## Robotman

If Shazam is a success I can see them getting Black Adam started immediately.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I would say Birds of Prey is next after Wonder Woman 2, then probably the self contained Joker film or The Batman. After that is anyone's guess suppose the most likely is Flash but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a darkhorse like Black Adam, Blackhawks or New Gods go into production.
> 
> I think Reeves is doing just fine on The Batman he says he is working on the script now, the main holdup is probably Affleck who according to latest reports might be reconsidering the role but at this point everyone is just sick of the uncertainty, it's just a farce right now how long this speculation has gone on.


Suicide Squad 2 was rumored to introduce Black Adam, so that could make it too.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm not a fan of switching orientations of long established characters as a general rule, but don't paint me as a homophobe please, you missed the point of my post, *Penguin being capable of truly loving someone above himself and being vulnerable is the more unforgivable thing.*


That's crazy. One of his best stories (_Joker's Asylum: Penguin_) does just that, to devastatingly good effect.

----------


## Vakanai

> That's crazy. One of his best stories (_Joker's Asylum: Penguin_) does just that, to devastatingly good effect.


Never read it, how good is it?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Never read it, how good is it?


Very. The story depicts Cobblepot as being capable of love, but then it rapidly turns into twisted obsession and then plain cruelty. A great character study.

----------


## Colossus1980

Cyborg and Green Lantern Corps are still listed to come out in 2020 on Wikipedia and IMDB.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Cyborg and Green Lantern Corps are still listed to come out in 2020 on Wikipedia and IMDB.


Those probably won't be updated until 2020 comes and goes.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, Penguin falling for someone instead of just using someone, eh.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind here, I actually liked Gotham's Penguin (possibly my favorite version of the character overall, and my favorite character on the show), I was just pointing out that him being skinny is hardly the point where the show most clashes with the comics.


Okay I guess though the Gotham Penguin is going to be putting on weight soon. Penguin always had a very lecherous side to him though.

----------


## Colossus1980

> so what are the possible DC movies for 2020?


Suicide Squad 2?  Or will it make 2019?

I think it's odd that WB are sitting on Harley Quinns' popularity and then plan to bombard the audience with her in SS 2, Harley/Joker, Gotham City Sirens, and Birds of Prey.  From zero appearances in three/four years to a possible 4 appearances in whatever number of years.

----------


## Confuzzled

Harley/Joker and Sirens may take time to happen, if at all. Birds of Prey and Suicide Squad 2 are rumored to film back to back in 2019 however.

And the main reason for the delay has been Margot Robbie's busy schedule.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Clay Enos, who was a photographer for previous DCEU movies, posted this on his Twitter and Vero along with the hashtag #wonderwoman:


(when asked if he was working on WW2 in his Vero comments, he responded with a shrug and wink emoji)

Update: Geoff Johns is now using the image as his Twitter header.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Update: Geoff Johns is now using the image as his Twitter header.


Patty Jenkins too: https://twitter.com/pattyjenks

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

RUMOR: Huntress Joining The Lineup of WB’s ‘Birds of Prey’ Movie: https://omegaunderground.com/2018/06...of-prey-movie/

RUMOR: ‘Birds of Prey’ Also Expected To Include Black Canary: https://omegaunderground.com/2018/06...-black-canary/

----------


## Elmo

what movies are coming out for real for sure confirmed

----------


## Vakanai

> Very. The story depicts Cobblepot as being capable of love, but then it rapidly turns into twisted obsession and then plain cruelty. A great character study.


Obsession and cruelty sounds about right.



> Okay I guess though the Gotham Penguin is going to be putting on weight soon. Penguin always had a very lecherous side to him though.


Haven't kept up as much with the show as I would like since Supergirl comes on at the same time, why is he going to be putting on weight? And yep, Penguin has always been lecherous.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Clay Enos, who was a photographer for previous DCEU movies, posted this on his Twitter and Vero along with the hashtag #wonderwoman:
> 
> 
> (when asked if he was working on WW2 in his Vero comments, he responded with a shrug and wink emoji)
> 
> Update: Geoff Johns is now using the image as his Twitter header.


Makes sense the first Wonder Woman film was set during WWI and the Suffrage Movement and if setting the sequel during the Cold War why not go the added bonus and set it the first time a major U.S. political party nominated a woman to Vice President.

----------


## Jabare

> Cyborg and Green Lantern Corps are still listed to come out in 2020 on Wikipedia and IMDB.


I wouldn't take wikipedia as gospel. Generally its up to date on things but not always. There has been no official cancellation of the movie, but we are mid 2018 with absolutely no movement. Sony's "Silver & Black" has a better chance of releasing in 2020. Think about it from a studio executives standpoint. Coming off Justice League why would you invest in that. Dc's got to regroup see how Awuaman does. Push Wonder Woman 2 and see what they want to do with the DCEU. Reboot?  Keep characters separate? discontinue? just wait for new/better direction?

I'm honestly surprised that Imdb has Cyborg listed the way it does they are usually better/more professional than that. Technically it was slated so they wouldn't be doing their job if it wasn't listed, but look at the page. they have the writers listed as George Perez and Marvel's Wolfman. Fisher is the only person attached. For a big budget superhero film slated to come out in a year and a half there would need to be movement. Writers working on a script, other development. Possible casting, extras etc. etc. etc. This isn't something that would be kept completely quiet either. 

Comic fans just have to hope some WB executives still see promise and the great potential of a DC Cinematic Universe. The traditionalist Hollywood executives looks at Justice League and Green Lantern and the other flopped films and says not again. They'd just keep doing Wonder Woman films. Ironically I think Marvel is actually keeping the dream alive. Studios just watch smash hit after smash hit and they want in on it. Despite Universals and Was failures so far I don't think they will give up on superheroes or shared universes because MArvel's given them 10+ years of evidence.

----------


## Jokerz79

> what movies are coming out for real for sure confirmed


Aquaman is done, Shazam is close to done, and WW2 is going into production next month anything else I personally have a I believe it when I see it policy.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Haven't kept up as much with the show as I would like since Supergirl comes on at the same time, why is he going to be putting on weight? And yep, Penguin has always been lecherous.


I'm not sure why but probably because the show is getting closer to when Bruce finally becomes Batman. That maybe why it happening so that Fox can present all of Batman's rogues in their classic looks.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Aquaman is done, Shazam is close to done, and WW2 is going into production next month anything else I personally have a I believe it when I see it policy.


Suicide Squad 2.  Can't see the DCEU passing up on movie that made 700M even though critics hated it.

----------


## Robotman

So Suicide Squad 2 may be the only DC movie ready for 2020 if they get production started relatively soon. If the plot involves recovering Black Adam from his banishment that would add yet another big name star to the lineup. Could be difficult to get everyone’s schedule to lineup. But having the Rock, Will Smith, and Margot Robbie in the same movie would most likely bring in the audience even if the last movie was critically panned.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Suicide Squad 2 is delayed for the Birds of Prey movie that is supposed to start filming in January 2019. I guess BoP and Batgirl are a priority over SS for some reason.

----------


## Colossus1980

I think WB should hurry it up with SS.  It came out in 2016 and if they wait 4 years the audience might not show up.  Have to strike while it's hot.

----------


## kjn

I wouldn't hold any hopes for Suicide Squad 2. The first one did a decent amount of money, but it was part of the downward trajectory of revenue for the DCEU. It also had the second largest 2nd weekend drop of the DCEU (only Batman V Superman had a worse drop). I'm surprised there are still rumours running around about the project.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I think WB should hurry it up with SS.  It came out in 2016 and if they wait 4 years the audience might not show up.  Have to strike while it's hot.


Please forgive, but I don't think Suicide Squad (in cinema) has ever been hot except before it was actually released. Once it was it did not exactly leave fans clamoring for more of anything but Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn. As such, I feel like it makes sense to give people time to forget what a flop SS was in much the same way they're in no hurry to make another Justice League movie. Both movies were very poorly received. One can't strike an iron when it's hot if it never becomes hot to begin with.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Please forgive, but I don't think Suicide Squad (in cinema) has ever been hot except before it was actually released. Once it was it did not exactly leave fans clamoring for more of anything but Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn. As such, I feel like it makes sense to give people time to forget what a flop SS was in much the same way they're in no hurry to make another Justice League movie. Both movies were very poorly received. One can't strike an iron when it's hot if it never becomes hot to begin with.


I agree with you in that SS wasn't really 'hot', but it did make a lot of money for the DCEU without the help of China.  I don't think the sequel will exceed the original total and the budget will probably only be higher.  The profit will probably be only smaller but to not greenlight a high grossing movie like SS just doesn't make sense.  I know it had a big drop but word of mouth should have torpedoed this movie.  Instead it grossed over 300M domestically.  It defied expectations.  It should be on the slate for 2019.

----------


## golgi

Suicide Squad had a great run, world wide and domestic. This is factoring out China. Of course WB will green light a sequel. It might not make as much as the first (Depending on if they can get a China release), but I still think it will do well, depending on the reviews.

----------


## Colossus1980

Upcoming DC movies according to Rotten Tomatoes  https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com...h-key-details/

----------


## Jokerz79

Movies announced and rumored since the DCEU started going from definite to who knows.

Aquaman, Shazam, Wonder Woman 2, The Batman, Suicide Squad 2, Batgirl, Man of Steel 2, Flash, Green Lantern Corps, Birds of Prey, Justice League Dark, New Gods, Spielberg's Blackhawks, Scorsese Stand Alone Joker, Harley Quinn and Joker, Gotham City Sirens, Nightwing, Cyborg, Black Adam, & Deathstroke.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Update about Walter Hamada on WB official website: https://www.warnerbros.com/studio/ex.../walter-hamada

"President, DC-Based Film Production, Warner Bros. Pictures

Walter Hamada is President, DC-Based Film Production, Warner Bros. Pictures. In this role, he oversees WBPs slate of films based on Super Heroes and Super-Villains from DC, as well as titles based on other characters and stories also licensed from DC, including its Vertigo and MAD Magazine imprints. Hamada draws upon resources from across both WBP and New Line Cinema and works closely with Geoff Johns, President and Chief Creative Officer, DC Entertainment."



Source: https://twitter.com/Steele131/status...97153458221056

----------


## Confuzzled

> I agree with you in that SS wasn't really 'hot', but it did make a lot of money for the DCEU without the help of China.  I don't think the sequel will exceed the original total and the budget will probably only be higher.  The profit will probably be only smaller but to not greenlight a high grossing movie like SS just doesn't make sense.  I know it had a big drop but word of mouth should have torpedoed this movie.  Instead it grossed over 300M domestically.  It defied expectations.  It should be on the slate for 2019.


It could exceed the original if it gets a China release and Dwayne Johnson's Black Adam has an appearance as he's rumored to.

----------


## Bossace

Part of me feels like we won’t see an aquaman trailer til SDCC, I really was hoping to see a trailer by now

----------


## Jokerz79

> Part of me feels like we won’t see an aquaman trailer til SDCC, I really was hoping to see a trailer by now


I'd like to see the trailer but it is a chance to own comic-con and get some good will going if they did a 3 punch with an full Aquaman trailer, Shazam teaser, and WW2 set photos. Also some trailers or news for DC Universe Streaming would be the knockout IMO.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Anyone else wish WW2 wasn't set in the 80's?

----------


## Frontier

> Anyone else wish WW2 wasn't set in the 80's?


I found it kind of interesting that all the major female-led movies Superhero movies seem to be period pieces (_Wonder Woman_, _Captain Marvel_, and now _Wonder Woman II)_.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Anyone else wish WW2 wasn't set in the 80's?


Was hoping for Vietnam/the 60's or 70's, but I'll take it. As long as they make it interesting. Hoping it's more nuanced than an anti-Russian thing.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

SDCC DCEU rumor...

-Aquaman trailer and Panel
-Shazam teaser
-Cheetah Image Reveal
-Official Slate Reveal (no Cyborg solo)
-Affleck and Reeves on stage together
-Most likely no MoS2 announcement

https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...90162729160705

----------


## Lightning Rider

> SDCC DCEU rumor...
> 
> -Aquaman trailer and Panel
> -Shazam teaser
> -Cheetah Image Reveal
> -Official Slate Reveal (no Cyborg solo)
> -Affleck and Reeves on stage together
> -Most likely no MoS2 announcement
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...90162729160705


Sounds great but sad about that last line. Although maybe it would be too early anyway compared to everything else.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> SDCC DCEU rumor...
> 
> -Aquaman trailer and Panel
> -Shazam teaser
> -Cheetah Image Reveal
> -Official Slate Reveal (no Cyborg solo)
> -Affleck and Reeves on stage together
> -*Most likely no MoS2 announcement*
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...90162729160705


What the F***!?! SUCH B.S.

----------


## Robotman

> SDCC DCEU rumor...
> 
> -Aquaman trailer and Panel
> -Shazam teaser
> -Cheetah Image Reveal
> -Official Slate Reveal (no Cyborg solo)
> -Affleck and Reeves on stage together
> -Most likely no MoS2 announcement
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...90162729160705


Cool to hear about the trailers and sneak peaks of the upcoming DC movies. But if there’s no announcement about a Man of Steal sequel my excitement for the future of the DCEU will plummet.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Cool to hear about the trailers and sneak peaks of the upcoming DC movies. But if there’s no announcement about a Man of Steal sequel my excitement for the future of the DCEU will plummet.


I'll be done. Fvcking done.

----------


## Colossus1980

I want to see Brainiac ASAP in MOS 2.  The first ever(?) live interpretation of this villain onscreen.  Supes VS Brainiac instead of boring Lex Luthor.

----------


## Armor of God

I dont see the part about Reeves and Affleck. It would be a huge PR win though.

----------


## Korath

> Cool to hear about the trailers and sneak peaks of the upcoming DC movies. But if theres no announcement about a Man of Steal sequel my excitement for the future of the DCEU will plummet.


Frankly, if Superman in MoS2 had to be like he was in the last part of JL, I vastly prefer WB to not produce it. He was extremely detrimental to an already flawed film.

----------


## Robotman

> Frankly, if Superman in MoS2 had to be like he was in the last part of JL, I vastly prefer WB to not produce it. He was extremely detrimental to an already flawed film.


That’s kinda funny, it seemed like most fans (or at least the most vocal) felt that Superman’s portrayal was one of the few bright spots.

there was flaws with Superman in the movie (the god awful cgi upper lip) but for me personally that portrayal gave me some hope of one day seeing a traditional uplifting take on Superman in a MoS sequel. I think Cavill could knock that out of the park. I was a fan of Man of Steel for the most part but I think Cavill deserves a solo flick that lets him be the finished product, out of the gloom into the light, Superman.

----------


## Amazon Swordsman

> Frankly, if Superman in MoS2 had to be like he was in the last part of JL, I vastly prefer WB to not produce it. He was extremely detrimental to an already flawed film.


I agree. A more appropriate title for JL, especially the 2nd half of the film would’ve been: “Superman and his NOT so amazing friends”.

It would’ve played out slightly better if that was the MoS sequel with him primarily facing off against Stepp, with only two guest appearances by Aquaman and Cyborg since they were at least somewhat connected to the plot.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> SDCC DCEU rumor...
> 
> -Aquaman trailer and Panel
> -Shazam teaser
> -Cheetah Image Reveal
> -Official Slate Reveal (no Cyborg solo)
> -Affleck and Reeves on stage together
> -Most likely no MoS2 announcement
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...90162729160705


I can see the first two happening, but it all sounds a lot like classic plausible guesswork from fans disguised as "rumors". Still, it would be interesting to hear at least SOMETHING from WB about how they will handle the DC films going forward. They've been dead silent ever since promoting Hamada.

----------


## Frontier

> SDCC DCEU rumor...
> 
> -Aquaman trailer and Panel
> -Shazam teaser
> -Cheetah Image Reveal
> -Official Slate Reveal (no Cyborg solo)
> -Affleck and Reeves on stage together
> -Most likely no MoS2 announcement
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...90162729160705


Aside from no Man of Steel 2 that sounds like probably the best Comic-Con showing the DCEU could give at this point, although that also lends to me some doubt as to whether it will actually happen...

----------


## Korath

> That’s kinda funny, it seemed like most fans (or at least the most vocal) felt that Superman’s portrayal was one of the few bright spots.
> 
> there was flaws with Superman in the movie (the god awful cgi upper lip) but for me personally that portrayal gave me some hope of one day seeing a traditional uplifting take on Superman in a MoS sequel. I think Cavill could knock that out of the park. I was a fan of Man of Steel for the most part but I think Cavill deserves a solo flick that lets him be the finished product, out of the gloom into the light, Superman.


Basically what Amazon Swordsman said.

----------


## Lightning Rider

My view is that I also want to see a more "finished product" traditional Superman, but thought they could have done it a bit more gracefully in JL. I enjoyed it but some of it was too much.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I would prefer Superman act and be as powerful as he was in JL but done more comptently and against a better threat that justifies him being that powerful. 

But I will be fucking done if Cavill doesnt get another movie.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I would prefer Superman act and be as powerful as he was in JL but done more comptently and against a better threat that justifies him being that powerful. 
> 
> But I will be fucking done if Cavill doesnt get another movie.


You and me both.

----------


## Hawkman

The last 15 minutes of _Justice League_ felt like it was ticking off Superman fanboy boxes instead of trying to resolve the conflict as the narrative dictated. Honestly, the whole thing reeked of Geoff Johns to me, especially that initial stinger featuring Flash and Superman.

Superman also came across as way too powerful for my taste. Seinfeld has an old bit about how redundant the other superheroes are as long as Superman is around, and I imagine a lot of people walked out of the theatre thinking the same thing. I don't begrudge Superman being so powerful; he should be. But I also thought it could've been handled more tactfully.

As for the SDCC rumors, I hope they're true, especially the bit about Affleck and Reeves. I really want that movie to happen, darn it.

----------


## Korath

> I would prefer Superman act and be as powerful as he was in JL but done more comptently and against a better threat that justifies him being that powerful. 
> 
> But I will be fucking done if Cavill doesnt get another movie.


What is the point of the other heroes if Superman is so powerful that no threat is a danger for him ? He literally toyed with Steppenwolf, an adversary who put the rest of the League at its wits end. He devaluated them all, and destroyed all of Flash's arcs toward heroism just so he could stupidly carry a building. If we get a Superman that powerful in future movies, then he has to be self-contained. No more Superman in the JL. It's basic storytelling that you can't have an all-powerful character in a team like that, it makes the whole thing bad.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Sounding like Ray Fisher is pissed at WB and it leaving the role of Cyborg. 

http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/r...ustice-league/

----------


## Anthony Shaw

I actually enjoyed Cavil's Superman in JL, over the previous two films to feature him.

As I see it, this version of Superman is less reserved in displaying his powers.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> What is the point of the other heroes if Superman is so powerful that no threat is a danger for him ? He literally toyed with Steppenwolf, an adversary who put the rest of the League at its wits end. He devaluated them all, and destroyed all of Flash's arcs toward heroism just so he could stupidly carry a building. If we get a Superman that powerful in future movies, then he has to be self-contained. No more Superman in the JL. It's basic storytelling that you can't have an all-powerful character in a team like that, it makes the whole thing bad.


Superman has been that powerful before, if not stronger, that is not the same as no threat being powerful enough to threaten him. A good JL writer can have Superman at that power level and provide a threat that even he still cannot handle alone, and requires other heroes of varying degrees in power to help combat. The problem was that this one was woefully inadequate, it was pitiful compared to the invasion he dealt with in his solo movie when he was a rookie. A JL level threat should be Zod's invasion on steroids, not whatever the hell that was with Steppenwolf. 

Powering down Superman or cutting him off from the JL is pointless and unnecessary. Just get better creators involved that are not Snyder or Whedon.

----------


## Amazon Swordsman

> Superman has been that powerful before, if not stronger, that is not the same as no threat being powerful enough to threaten him. A good JL writer can have Superman at that power level and provide a threat that even he still cannot handle alone, and requires other heroes of varying degrees in power to help combat. The problem was that this one was woefully inadequate, it was pitiful compared to the invasion he dealt with in his solo movie when he was a rookie. A JL level threat should be Zod's invasion on steroids, not whatever the hell that was with Steppenwolf. 
> 
> Powering down Superman or cutting him off from the JL is pointless and unnecessary. Just get better creators involved that are not Snyder or Whedon.


It’s absolutely necessary if you’re trying to build a coherent, shared film universe where everyone should get a chance to shine. Hate to be that person, but marvel executes that better in that regard, especially in their most recent film. If you’re going to do a heroic ensemble movie, then the enemie(s) in said film should be able to dish out an amount of butt whoop across the ensemble. That way, when they team up, the tension and conflict resolution will be more believable. If you don’t think Superman was op in JL and are ok with him being that strong, then the rest of the JL was heavily nerfed, as well as Steppenwolf himself. Bring their power levels up, shortening the gap between them and Superman, forcing him to need their help.

If the other leaguers aren’t effective in helping take down the big bads, then what are they there for? Decoration?

----------


## Frontier

> It’s absolutely necessary if you’re trying to build a coherent, shared film universe where everyone should get a chance to shine. Hate to be that person, but marvel executes that better in that regard, especially in their most recent film. If you’re going to do a heroic ensemble movie, then the enemie(s) in said film should be able to dish out an amount of butt whoop across the ensemble. That way, when they team up, the tension and conflict resolution will be more believable. If you don’t think Superman was op in JL and are ok with him being that strong, then the rest of the JL was heavily nerfed, as well as Steppenwolf himself. Bring their power levels up, shortening the gap between them and Superman, forcing him to need their help.
> 
> If the other leaguers aren’t effective in helping take down the big bads, then what are they there for? Decoration?


I wouldn't say Marvel is entirely perfect about it.

Both of the first two _Avengers_ movies ultimately came down to the Hulk being the one to beat the Big Bad fairly easily. We never really saw the entire team have to take on Loki or Ultron at the same time. 

I assume a future _Justice League_ movie, if that ever happens at this rate, that doesn't need to accommodate, focus, or "redeem" Superman as much would be more even-handed in the entire team dynamic.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Or they could turn into a fun running gag having Superman popping up at the 11th hour in every DC movies to defeat the bad guy with just one punch.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It’s absolutely necessary if you’re trying to build a coherent, shared film universe where everyone should get a chance to shine. Hate to be that person, but marvel executes that better in that regard, especially in their most recent film. *If you’re going to do a heroic ensemble movie, then the enemie(s) in said film should be able to dish out an amount of butt whoop across the ensemble.* That way, when they team up, the tension and conflict resolution will be more believable. If you don’t think Superman was op in JL and are ok with him being that strong, then the rest of the JL was heavily nerfed, as well as Steppenwolf himself. Bring their power levels up, shortening the gap between them and Superman, forcing him to need their help.
> 
> If the other leaguers aren’t effective in helping take down the big bads, then what are they there for? Decoration?


Isn't that pretty much what I said? The threat level wasn't big or impressive enough that it needed Superman and the rest of the team, regardless of whether or not they were nerfed (and honestly, nobody except maybe Diana was considering who was on the team and their relative experience levels). That's why I said get better writing and bigger threats with better choreography in the fights that allow everyone a vital role in bringing down the threat relative to their power level.

Grant Morrison's JLA this movie was not. He pretty much wrote Superman as that guy, and still had everybody else contribute significantly. Because the threats were large, and when they weren't large they were a little more cerebral and couldn't be solved just with fists. 




> Or they could turn into a fun gag having Superman popping up at the 11th hour in every DC movies to defeat the bad guy with just one punch.


It honestly seems like this a concern for some, and I don't get why. 

And nobody in the casual audience is going to hold it against Aquaman that he lost against Superman. They don't have any pre-conceived notions that he's a character who can challenge Superman, so they are not disappointed with a poor showing. They will still go see his movie if it gets good buzz. Superman won't be in it. The mere fact that he's out there, existing, is not a deterrent. He's got his own shit to do, Aquaman has to save the day without him as he has done _numerous_ times.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

*Double post

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

And in other news, it’s being reported that New Gods will not take place in the DCEU. Smh.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> And nobody in the casual audience is going to hold it against Aquaman that he lost against Superman. They don't have any pre-conceived notions that he's a character who can challenge Superman, so they are not disappointed with a poor showing. They will still go see his movie if it gets good buzz. Superman won't be in it. The mere fact that he's out there, existing, is not a deterrent. He's got his own shit to do, Aquaman has to save the day without him as he has done _numerous_ times.


JL is Campbell's GL level of forgettable, the casual audience has already left behind what Aquaman and Superman have done in this movie.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> JL is Campbell's GL level of forgettable, the casual audience has already left behind what Aquaman and Superman have done in this movie.


Exactly. People will turn up for Aquaman and Wonder Woman 2 if they look good (especially the latter), because more people saw WW than JL. One scene will not kill this universe, especially as that movie was a shitshow before Superman even showed up.

----------


## Bossace

> Sounding like Ray Fisher is pissed at WB and it leaving the role of Cyborg. 
> 
> http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/r...ustice-league/


Know they’re just rumors but I can imagine it is how he feels. You sign in and are told oh yea we’ll make a solo and you’ll pop up in flash after JL it’ll be great. Then you kind of have the rug ripped out from under you. Though I would prefer Flash’s first movie focusing more on flash before we dive into the more spread out universe for sequels with other character interactions.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> And in other news, it’s being reported that New Gods will not take place in the DCEU. Smh.


Source? The news I'm hearing is that it's in early development, and Variety is saying it is part of the DCEU.

https://variety.com/2018/film/news/a...dc-1202725043/

----------


## BlackClaw

> Sounding like Ray Fisher is pissed at WB and it leaving the role of Cyborg. 
> 
> http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/r...ustice-league/


If it’s true then I don’t blame him. Just another casualty of WB’s poor decision making.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Sounding like Ray Fisher is pissed at WB and it leaving the role of Cyborg. 
> 
> http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/r...ustice-league/


Oh well......

I guess a billion dollar Panther movie will make you rethink things.

Sooner or later they will learn that half you know of doing things is not the way to go.

Oh well Marvel can hire him. Someone has to play a young Blue Marvel.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Source? The news I'm hearing is that it's in early development, and Variety is saying it is part of the DCEU.
> 
> https://variety.com/2018/film/news/a...dc-1202725043/


https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...roject-a161077

----------


## Lightning Rider

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_fi...roject-a161077


Thanks. It says "reports indicate" without specifying, while Variety explicitly states it will be part of the extended universe, although without putting any more emphasis on it. I don't think this is clear.

----------


## Amazon Swordsman

> If its true then I dont blame him. Just another casualty of WBs poor decision making.


Put him back with the titans already!!

----------


## Zudomon

I doubt the Ray Fisher thing is true.  Basically anyone can make up a rumor on 4 chan.  Plus, he hasn't even really been in anything other than Justice League.  So even if he was upset I don't think he'd make  a decision to part ways with being Cyborg, lol.

----------


## Raijin

> I doubt the Ray Fisher thing is true.  Basically anyone can make up a rumor on 4 chan.  Plus, he hasn't even really been in anything other than Justice League.  So even if he was upset I don't think he'd make  a decision to part ways with being Cyborg, lol.


Don't mind them. People on here are willing to idiotically believe rumors especially when it's negative. I always ways wait for facts and confirmation, especially in this day and age.

----------


## Confuzzled

Yeah, much of that sounds like fanboy nonsense, especially the part about WB allowing Snyder to complete his director's cut as long as his company foots the bill. That's not how big studio business works.

----------


## Bossace

After that bumblebee trailer drop Im really curious now how aquaman will play with audiences box office wise when they have choices like Aquaman, Bumblebee, the Return Of Marry Poppins. This is a busy Christmas week.

----------


## Confuzzled

Transformers as a franchise is at a much worse place than the DCEU. I doubt a lot of people will come out to watch Bumblebee even if it is good.

Though as an interesting aside and connection to the DCEU, Bumblebee's writer is the same lady who wrote the Birds of Prey script and who is currently working on Batgirl.

----------


## Serpico Jones

DCEU is in better shape moving forward than Lucasfilm and Star Wars. Who would’ve thought that even a few months ago?

----------


## Carabas

> DCEU is in better shape moving forward than Lucasfilm and Star Wars. Who would’ve thought that even a few months ago?


How do you figure?

----------


## Serpico Jones

> How do you figure?


DC Films have never had a hack flop like Solo. Overseas markets have also apparently given up on SW as a franchise.

----------


## Bossace

> DC Films have never had a hack flop like Solo. Overseas markets have also apparently given up on SW as a franchise.


I hope you didn’t just jinx aquaman... if international markets had no interest in Solo they could very well react the same way to aquaman, a character they may have zero interest in which I think was what happened with Solo

----------


## Confuzzled

Solo banked heavily on well... being a Han Solo solo (which I don't think many people really wanted, especially if it didn't star Harrison Ford), and the nostalgic attachment to Star Wars (which many international markets have none, and domestically people have now proven they won't come out in droves to watch anything that has "A Star Wars Story" tag slapped on to it).

Aquaman will be doing his heavy lifting himself with hopefully impressive trailers. The film cannot fall back on just being a DCEU film now so wowing people on its own is necessary, not just recommended.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Social media sucks: https://twitter.com/ItsDavery/status...35087921340416

----------


## Jokerz79

> Solo banked heavily on well... being a Han Solo solo (which I don't think many people really wanted, especially if it didn't star Harrison Ford), and the nostalgic attachment to Star Wars (which many international markets have none, and domestically people have now proven they won't come out in droves to watch anything that has "A Star Wars Story" tag slapped on to it).
> 
> Aquaman will be doing his heavy lifting himself with hopefully impressive trailers. The film cannot fall back on just being a DCEU film now so wowing people on its own is necessary, not just recommended.


After seeing the trailer Aquaman's got good competition on opening weekend with Bumblebee.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Interesting speculation...

"I don't think the Deathstroke solo is gonna come out anytime soon. He'll probably be seen next as one of the main villains in JL2, which I'm gonna bet will turn into a Justice League vs. Suicide Squad movie. He could show up in an after credits scene somewhere before that tho."

"No. I think the League and the Squad will fight each other at the beginning but will team-up by the end of the film to fight the Legion of Doom."

"Which is why they're gonna put the Suicide Squad in the sequel (and in the title) - to attract more people to see it."

https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...94778166075393

Suicide Squad v Justice League: Dawn of Injustice?

----------


## El_Gato

> After seeing the trailer Aquaman's got good competition on opening weekend with Bumblebee.


Really? I wasn't all that impressed by it. Looked alright. That's about it. Of course we have to wait and see how Aquaman looks, but with Wan in charge, I have a feeling it's going to look good!

Also is Mary Poppins even competition? Lol The generation that grew up with the OG film are all 55+. Doubt young people will choose to watch that film, especially men.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Interesting speculation...
> 
> "I don't think the Deathstroke solo is gonna come out anytime soon. He'll probably be seen next as one of the main villains in JL2, which I'm gonna bet will turn into a Justice League vs. Suicide Squad movie. He could show up in an after credits scene somewhere before that tho."
> 
> "No. I think the League and the Squad will fight each other at the beginning but will team-up by the end of the film to fight the Legion of Doom."
> 
> "Which is why they're gonna put the Suicide Squad in the sequel (and in the title) - to attract more people to see it."
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...94778166075393
> ...


Now that's interesting. I was thinking teaming up with the Legion to fight Darkseid down the line, but this makes a lot of sense.

----------


## El_Gato

> How do you figure?


For starters growing international markers like Asia and Latin America aren't apathetic towards the DCEU, the way they are towards Star Wars, combined with diminishing returns from Europe and Domestic box office.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Really? I wasn't all that impressed by it. Looked alright. That's about it. Of course we have to wait and see how Aquaman looks, but with Wan in charge, I have a feeling it's going to look good!
> 
> Also is Mary Poppins even competition? Lol The generation that grew up with the OG film are all 55+. Doubt young people will choose to watch that film, especially men.


I hated the Bay films but this one is hitting me in the nostalgia feels with the tone and look of the film and I'm seeing a lot of that from the G1 generation also kids are going to flock to Bumblebee IMO. So yeah this looks to be real competition again JMO.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I hated the Bay films but this one is hitting me in the nostalgia feels with the tone and look of the film and I'm seeing a lot of that from the G1 generation also kids are going to flock to Bumblebee IMO. So yeah this looks to be real competition again JMO.


You were complaining about the scriptwriter when she was attached to the Birds of Prey and Batgirl movies. Now that her movie is direct competition to a DCEU film, of course you think it is "real" competition.

----------


## El_Gato

> I hated the Bay films but this one is hitting me in the nostalgia feels with the tone and look of the film and I'm seeing a lot of that from the G1 generation also kids are going to flock to Bumblebee IMO. So yeah this looks to be real competition again JMO.


I guess we'll see. Can't really say for sure when we haven't seen a trailer for Aquaman. But hey if Jumanji could make over 900 million next to a episodic Star Wars film, than anything can happen IMO.

----------


## Jokerz79

> You were complaining about the scriptwriter when she was attached to the Birds of Prey and Batgirl movies. Now that her movie is direct competition to a DCEU film, of course you think it is "real" competition.


Shut In and Unforgettable were awful films David S. Goyer has written some good films too even with all the garbage broken clocks are right twice a day. Also the director Travis Knight did Kubo and the two strings a really good film and it has a good lead in Hailee Steinfeld. 

Wonder Woman was good, BvS Ultimate Cut and Justice League were ok, Nolan's Trilogy was Excellent, Batman 89 is good, Superman 78 is one of my favorite films of all time. I like DC just not all of them so please keep me out of your little boxes of fandom.

----------


## Slim Shady

I can't help but think, if done right, Aquaman is going to look special on the big screen and will get a lot of people's attention.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> I guess we'll see. Can't really say for sure when we haven't seen a trailer for Aquaman. But hey if Jumanji could make over 900 million next to a episodic Star Wars film, than anything can happen IMO.


Aquaman would have to be a nice good surprise for that to happen and hopefully it is.

----------


## Nite-Wing

So Joker is getting his own movie 
Might be a mad love movie or the Joker vs Harley movie that has been talked about before
Still I'm excited for Leto getting a chance at redemption 
https://variety.com/2018/film/news/j...mpression=true

----------


## Frontier

> So Joker is getting his own movie 
> Might be a mad love movie or the Joker vs Harley movie that has been talked about before
> Still I'm excited for Leto getting a chance at redemption 
> https://variety.com/2018/film/news/j...mpression=true


I really can't muster up much enthusiasm for a Jared Leto Joker film. 

I was actually kind of happy with the Elseworlds Joker film if it meant a Joker movie that did not star Jared Leto  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Bossace

Oh God I’d rather take a gamble with a new interpretation of the joker instead of Leto Joker

----------


## Vakanai

> So Joker is getting his own movie 
> Might be a mad love movie or the Joker vs Harley movie that has been talked about before
> Still I'm excited for Leto getting a chance at redemption 
> https://variety.com/2018/film/news/j...mpression=true


Could be good or bad, depending on script and director and other factors. I can't be excited for this till I get more info, but I won't be apprehensive either unless I see something to give me pause.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I really can't muster up much enthusiasm for a Jared Leto Joker film. 
> 
> I was actually kind of happy with the Elseworlds Joker film if it meant a Joker movie that did not star Jared Leto .


Same. The entire approach to Leto's Joker from the "Damaged" tattoo to his attempts to go faux-method with gross-out gifts to co-stars is off-putting (the latter being such a blatant, cheap Ledger lift). The only DCEU/DC Films casting choice I hate more than Leto's Joker is Eisenberg's Luthor. The Luthor casting is magnitudes worse than the Leto casting but both were real missteps.

I'm fine with the rest of DCEU casting for the most part but these two roles should really be re-cast.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Same. The entire approach to Leto's Joker from the "Damaged" tattoo to his attempts to go faux-method with gross-out gifts to co-stars is off-putting (the latter being such a blatant, cheap Ledger lift). The only DCEU/DC Films casting choice I hate more than Leto's Joker is Eisenberg's Luthor. The Luthor casting is magnitudes worse than the Leto casting but both were real missteps.
> 
> I'm fine with the rest of DCEU casting for the most part but these two roles should really be re-cast.


I agree with you on both accounts. I guess we can hang our hat on the fact that at least these two weren't cast as the two most important villains in the DC Universe.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I feel like the Joker would be easy enough to salvage even with Leto provided there is the right talent behind the camera. There is precedent for the Joker re-inventing himself, so in-universe we could just have him get bored with the "gangsta" stuff and try something else, giving himself a new persona to work with. Leto can stay provided he tones his shit down when interacting with his co-stars. He's a good fit for the character if he'd be given proper direction. 

A Joker solo film is still a really dumb idea though. Reserve him for the Batman solo and the Legion of Doom stuff. I don't think it will even get off the ground. 

Eisenberg needs to be recast though. I thought he was good in some scenes, but waaaaay too over the top in others. He'd be the only cast mate I'd be completely fine with losing.




> I agree with you on both accounts. I guess we can hang our hat on the fact that at least these two weren't cast as the two most important villains in the DC Universe.


It's both kind of great and really sad that the Cheetah has a legitimate shot at being the best received of the Lex/Joker/Cheetah trinity as far as the DCEU is concerned, if Jenkins and Wiig can deliver. Great because IT'S HER TIME Y'ALL, but sad because Lex and Joker can't be great along with her.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> DC Films have never had a hack flop like Solo. Overseas markets have also apparently given up on SW as a franchise.


NO one asked for a Solo movie. Lando is another story.

Aquaman should do well as I have ran into a LOT of his fans who don't read the comic.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> NO one asked for a Solo movie. Lando is another story.
> 
> Aquaman should do well as I have ran into a LOT of his fans who don't read the comic.


Solo should have never been a movie 
they should have just done a boba fett bounty hunter movie from the start but Disney is anything if not determined to ruin their golden goose.
WB is stubborn too they finally fired/demoted all the people behind expanding on the Suicide Squad characters.
Now it seems like surprise to see all these spinoffs when they really should have been announced 2 years ago after Suicide Squad did its good business

----------


## Colossus1980

> After that bumblebee trailer drop Im really curious now how aquaman will play with audiences box office wise when they have choices like Aquaman, Bumblebee, the Return Of Marry Poppins. This is a busy Christmas week.


I wonder if this will be one of the lower Christmas box office totals in recent years.  Bumblebee is coming after the horrible performance of The Last Knight, Aquaman after the disappointing JL, and Mary Poppins will be relying on nostalgia.  I'm also interested to see how it plays out.

----------


## Colossus1980

> So Joker is getting his own movie 
> Might be a mad love movie or the Joker vs Harley movie that has been talked about before
> Still I'm excited for Leto getting a chance at redemption 
> https://variety.com/2018/film/news/j...mpression=true


When SS came out, was there a lot of buzz for his performance?  Not sold on a solo Joker film.

----------


## Styles

> So Joker is getting his own movie 
> Might be a mad love movie or the Joker vs Harley movie that has been talked about before
> Still I'm excited for Leto getting a chance at redemption 
> https://variety.com/2018/film/news/j...mpression=true

----------


## dan12456

So after seeing the train wreck that is Solo's box office numbers, Warner decides to double down on a movie that no one is asking for, spinning off a movie everyone hated? Ok then.

----------


## Rogue

> I hope you didn’t just jinx aquaman... if international markets had no interest in Solo they could very well react the same way to aquaman, a character they may have zero interest in which I think was what happened with Solo


Oh please Aquaman's safe. Latin America and Asia (barring Japan) like the live action superhero movies. It's Europe, Japan and the Anglo-Sphere where Star Wars typically shines. 

In a way Superhero movies are a reverse Star Wars, generally speaking at their best Star Wars has more power over Superhero movies in those Markets, but in the developing markets they don't do that hot. 




> Overseas markets have also apparently given up on SW as a franchise.


No they haven't. They may given up on the spin offs, though even then Solo was a movie no one really wanted. The other spin offs have some potential but I think SWs should stay as a once every few years franchise. Many parts of Latin America and Asia save for Japan have given up though. But Japan, Europe and the Anglo-Sphere will show up for the final main series conclusion and I doubt JJ will make anything super polarizing. 




> Also is Mary Poppins even competition? Lol *The generation that grew up with the OG film are all 55+.* Doubt young people will choose to watch that film, especially men.


You say that yet The original Cinderella, Alice, Jungle Book and Sleeping Beauty are all decades old but all their remakes/sequels/prequels/whatever made bank. Sure Disney Live action remakes/sequels aren't perfect but the success far outweighs their blunders. And its likely gonna be rated G/PG and a musical so if its decent you can bet that the families will show up. 

And aside from that, I think Bumblebee will do so so, and it has an animated superhero movie to contend with then there's Mortal Engines which is a wild card.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I'd be totally down for a Leto Joker film. I thought he was possibly the creepiest most unpredictable Joker yet. I obviously think Ledger was great but there's something in Leto's gaze and mannerisms that made me terrified of him. I could have done without the tattoos, sure, but with or without them, I'm confident he can win people over with his acting. Anyone hoping for a recast is probably just hoping for a different universe altogether, but for this DCEU to succeed, abandoning its established characters is not the way to go. 

Eisenberg was Birthright/Secret Origins Lex, and I thought he fit decently in the suit. Toning him down just a bit post-jail would be a decent fit.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'd be totally down for a Leto Joker film. I thought he was possibly the creepiest most unpredictable Joker yet. I obviously think Ledger was great but there's something in Leto's gaze and mannerisms that made me terrified of him. I could have done without the tattoos, sure, but with or without them, I'm confident he can win people over with his acting. Anyone hoping for a recast is probably just hoping for a different universe altogether, but for this DCEU to succeed, abandoning its established characters is not the way to go. 
> 
> Eisenberg was Birthright/Secret Origins Lex, and I thought he fit decently in the suit. Toning him down just a bit post-jail would be a decent fit.


He did seem less twitchy and over excited after learning Superman was back from the dead.

----------


## Black_Adam

If they do a Leto Joker film best thing they can do is NOT have Harley in it, or at most a small cameo at the end. Biggest problem with Joker in SS was watching him act like a lovesick puppy the whole movie trying to get her back. Let us see the Joker doing Joker things: causing mayhem and destruction all over Gotham, do that and I'm interested.




> I hated the Bay films but this one is hitting me in the nostalgia feels with the tone and look of the film and I'm seeing a lot of that from the G1 generation also kids are going to flock to Bumblebee IMO. So yeah this looks to be real competition again JMO.


Wasn't the last Transformers film supposed to destroy Wonder Woman? That turned out well for them... If there is one brand which is even more poisonous then the DCEU it's Bayformers hell Hasbro have even thrown in the towel and are going to reboot after Bumblebee, which was already in production so it wasn't scrapped. Aquaman will live and die on the quality of the film not the competition IMO.

----------


## Robotman

Ugh, jeezus a Leto Joker solo. Why?!? His interpretation of the Joker was horrible. The “damaged” tattoo was so unintentionally funny. It was like someone’s grandparents were asked to describe what a crazy tattooed guy looks like.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> I really can't muster up much enthusiasm for a Jared Leto Joker film. 
> 
> I was actually kind of happy with the Elseworlds Joker film if it meant a Joker movie that did not star Jared Leto .





> Same. The entire approach to Leto's Joker from the "Damaged" tattoo to his attempts to go faux-method with gross-out gifts to co-stars is off-putting (the latter being such a blatant, cheap Ledger lift). The only DCEU/DC Films casting choice I hate more than Leto's Joker is Eisenberg's Luthor. The Luthor casting is magnitudes worse than the Leto casting but both were real missteps.
> 
> I'm fine with the rest of DCEU casting for the most part but these two roles should really be re-cast.


I'm with you guys.

Joker by Leto is an eye sore, to me. I consider him to be the worst Joker ever.

IMO, Luthor should be a great mix of charisma while being physically intimidating. Eisenberg is the Riddler who engaged in identity theft.

----------


## Lightning Rider

Everyone seems to be complaining about the tattoos, but what was actually wrong with his PERFORMANCE? I found him a very convincing Joker.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Everyone seems to be complaining about the tattoos, but what was actually wrong with his PERFORMANCE? I found him a very convincing Joker.


He was apparently a nightmare to work with (which is probably one reason why none of the people behind the other Batman/Harley related films are too enthusiastic to work with him). And his performance came across as kind of awkward and not really what you'd normally expect from all that "method acting".

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

It's still in early development, so there is a good chance that this Joker film might never materialize.

On a side note, I wonder if development of a film specifically for Leto's Joker is Hamada's way of keeping Leto happy? Rumors back when all those other Joker projects were getting announced stated he wasn't exactly pleased about them...

----------


## dan12456

> It's still in early development, so there is a good chance that this Joker film might never materialize.
> 
> On a side note, I wonder if development of a film specifically for Leto's Joker is Hamada's way of keeping Leto happy? Rumors back when all those other Joker projects were getting announced stated he wasn't exactly pleased about them...


Why would they care about keeping him happy? The franchise has no future. SS had some of the worst week to week drops in history. It was profitable due to the initial rush and strong marketing, but once word of mouth got out its numbers tanked.

----------


## Robotman

> Everyone seems to be complaining about the tattoos, but what was actually wrong with his PERFORMANCE? I found him a very convincing Joker.


It seemed like he was doing a bad impression of Heaths Joker.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd be totally down for a Leto Joker film. I thought he was possibly the creepiest most unpredictable Joker yet. I obviously think Ledger was great but there's something in Leto's gaze and mannerisms that made me terrified of him. I could have done without the tattoos, sure, but with or without them, I'm confident he can win people over with his acting. Anyone hoping for a recast is probably just hoping for a different universe altogether, but for this DCEU to succeed, abandoning its established characters is not the way to go.





> Everyone seems to be complaining about the tattoos, but what was actually wrong with his PERFORMANCE? I found him a very convincing Joker.


His performance was just way too try-hard and unremarkable to me, and I don't think he was really able to capture the Joker's voice or flair that well. 

I'm really not excited about any future appearances with him as the Clown Prince of Crime. More like a Clown Punk. 



> Eisenberg was Birthright/Secret Origins Lex, and I thought he fit decently in the suit. Toning him down just a bit post-jail would be a decent fit.


They can put him in the suit and bald head but it's still going to be hard for me to take Eisenberg seriously in the role.

----------


## Serpico Jones

Jon Schnepp says he’s heard rumors that Matt Reeves and Ben Affleck will announce The Batman together inside Hall H next month at comic con.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Why would they care about keeping him happy? The franchise has no future. SS had some of the worst week to week drops in history. It was profitable due to the initial rush and strong marketing, but once word of mouth got out its numbers tanked.


Leto is a good actor and WB is about more than the DCEU so hypothetically if JL was annoyed about what happened with Joker in SS and wanted a solo film for "redemption" it is possible WB might be willing to pop one out on the cheap to keep him happy for other potential WB projects with him not DCEU related.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Jon Schnepp says hes heard rumors that Matt Reeves and Ben Affleck will announce The Batman together inside Hall H next month at comic con.


It's possible but I don't trust what Schnepp hears he also heard Holland's Spider-Man will appear in Venom and I can't buy that with the Snap I mean yeah we know Spidey's coming back but I can't see Marvel wanting that shown on screen until Avengers 4.

----------


## maxmcco

Here's a great interview with David Sandberg all about filming the Shazam movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=Eql9VLm0n3A

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/ToddStashwick/st...80515311124482

Todd Stashwick claims to be one of Suicide Squad 2's co-writers.

----------


## Confuzzled

DC's 2020 line-up increasingly seems to be _Birds of Prey_, _Suicide Squad 2_ and _The Batman_, with a small chance for either the Flash solo or the Scorcese Joker film to make it too.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...sequel-1118407

THR confirms that Todd Stashwick and David Bar Katz are Suicide Squad 2's co-writers.

----------


## Robotman

Suicide Squad made money due to Joker and Harley’s popularity, Will Smith’s star power, and yes a very good trailer. But the movie itself was pretty bad. I think the only way a sequel would generate anywhere near the level of hype as the first one is if the rumored debut of The Rock as Black Adam happens. I can see something along the lines of Waller realizing she needs a Superman level threat on her team and sending in the Squad to find Adam’s tomb. Maybe there’s another team like The Jihad or the Russian Suicide Squad also trying to find Black Adam.

----------


## kjn

> DC's 2020 line-up increasingly seems to be _Birds of Prey_, _Suicide Squad 2_ and _The Batman_, with a small chance for either the Flash solo or the Scorcese Joker film to make it too.


I simply can't see how that lineup will help the DCEU brand get out of the hole it is in.

_Suicide Squad_ was arguably the worst received of all the DCEU films (yeah, it made money, but that was partly due to a huge marketing campaign). If they want to salvage that, it's probably better to do solo or duo movies.

_Birds of Prey_, there I simply do not know who is supposed to be in the movie. Are they going to put Harley Quinn into another team? Doing another teamup movie where we don't know or care about the characters yet? And while putting a newcomer "bad boy" as the viewpoint character in a team movie is a proven idea (see the original X-Men), I'm not sure Harley Quinn is the right character for that. And in practice it would block doing a proper Batgirl-Oracle story arc based firmly in Barbara Gordon's experience.

As for _The Batman_, I'm not sure I want to see another brooding old Batman.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I simply can't see how that lineup will help the DCEU brand get out of the hole it is in.
> 
> _Suicide Squad_ was arguably the worst received of all the DCEU films (yeah, it made money, but that was partly due to a huge marketing campaign). If they want to salvage that, it's probably better to do solo or duo movies.
> 
> _Birds of Prey_, there I simply do not know who is supposed to be in the movie. Are they going to put Harley Quinn into another team? Doing another teamup movie where we don't know or care about the characters yet? And while putting a newcomer "bad boy" as the viewpoint character in a team movie is a proven idea (see the original X-Men), I'm not sure Harley Quinn is the right character for that. And in practice it would block doing a proper Batgirl-Oracle story arc based firmly in Barbara Gordon's experience.
> 
> As for _The Batman_, I'm not sure I want to see another brooding old Batman.


I totally agree with you regarding Birds of Prey and SS2. But The Batman is exactly the kinds of films the DCEU needs to dig itself out. Solo films of the JL members appropriately toned for the character. If it was up to me, we'd see AM, Shazam, WW2, The Flash, The Batman, Superman (and call it that not MoS2) and GL in that order. I'd introduce Hal in one of the other solo's to re-intro to audiences.

----------


## kjn

> I totally agree with you regarding Birds of Prey and SS2. But The Batman is exactly the kinds of films the DCEU needs to dig itself out. Solo films of the JL members appropriately toned for the character. If it was up to me, we'd see AM, Shazam, WW2, The Flash, The Batman, Superman (and call it that not MoS2) and GL in that order. I'd introduce Hal in one of the other solo's to re-intro to audiences.


Oh, I think doing a Batman film is swell. But to me, they need to put as much distance between the DCEU and the new movies as possible. Having Ben Affleck return as Batman, which by nature will be an old Batman, doesn't accomplish that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I totally agree with you regarding Birds of Prey and SS2. But The Batman is exactly the kinds of films the DCEU needs to dig itself out. Solo films of the JL members appropriately toned for the character. If it was up to me, we'd see *AM, Shazam, WW2, The Flash, The Batman, Superman (and call it that not MoS2) and GL in that order. I'd introduce Hal in one of the other solo's to re-intro to audiences.*


IMO that would be far less effective than a possible AM, Shazam, WW2, BoP, SS2 and The Batman line-up. WW2, BoP and SS2 are being prioritized because the first _Wonder Woman_ and _Suicide Squad_ managed to mint money thanks to serving to demographics who didn't see enough representation in DC's competitors (mainly women, Latino audiences and in a pre-Black Panther landscape, African-American audiences). 

The Green Lantern fanbase is divided among the different Lanterns as is, so prioritizing investing resources into rehabilitating Hal's image on the big screen after his disastrous first outing doesn't seem worth the risk, especially as the straight white male superhero isn't really a cinematic novelty any more.

----------


## golgi

> I simply can't see how that lineup will help the DCEU brand get out of the hole it is in.
> 
> _Suicide Squad_ was arguably the worst received of all the DCEU films (yeah, it made money, but that was partly due to a huge marketing campaign). If they want to salvage that, it's probably better to do solo or duo movies.
> 
> _Birds of Prey_, there I simply do not know who is supposed to be in the movie. Are they going to put Harley Quinn into another team? Doing another teamup movie where we don't know or care about the characters yet? And while putting a newcomer "bad boy" as the viewpoint character in a team movie is a proven idea (see the original X-Men), I'm not sure Harley Quinn is the right character for that. And in practice it would block doing a proper Batgirl-Oracle story arc based firmly in Barbara Gordon's experience.
> 
> As for _The Batman_, I'm not sure I want to see another brooding old Batman.




If the movies are good, it will.

----------


## El_Gato

> Why would they care about keeping him happy? The franchise has no future. SS had some of the worst week to week drops in history. It was profitable due to the initial rush and strong marketing, but once word of mouth got out its numbers tanked.


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...&id=dc2016.htm

Don't make things up man. Only bad drop was week 2 (on par with the X-Men films or recently Deadpool 2). Still made more money than Man of Steel and Green Lantern, without China and with fanboys berating anyone who liked the film. No wonder there's a sequel in the works

----------


## Carabas

> Oh, I think doing a Batman film is swell. But to me, they need to put as much distance between the DCEU and the new movies as possible. Having Ben Affleck return as Batman, which by nature will be an old Batman, doesn't accomplish that.


An Old Man Bats movie can put a lot of distance between itself and the Snyderverse simply by being well made.

----------


## Confuzzled

> http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...&id=dc2016.htm
> 
> Don't make things up man. Only bad drop was week 2 (on par with the X-Men films or recently Deadpool 2). Still made more money than Man of Steel and Green Lantern, without China and with fanboys berating anyone who liked the film. No wonder there's a sequel in the works


WB even announced how SS boosted their profits for the financial quarter it came out in, right? I remember them crediting Latino movie-goers and El Diablo's representation in particular for the movie's success.

----------


## AquaLantern

> http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...&id=dc2016.htm
> 
> Don't make things up man. Only bad drop was week 2 (on par with the X-Men films or recently Deadpool 2). Still made more money than Man of Steel and Green Lantern, without China and with *fanboys berating anyone who liked the film*. No wonder there's a sequel in the works


I think that one of the most frustrating parts about this. You can barely express liking any of the films without some random jerk labeling you as an apologist or not a “real fan” of DC. If I can accept people liking the Injustice games despite my belief of them represnting what I think is the biggest problem with DC, why can’t people accept that there are people who any of the DCEU films and don’t feel any guilt for it?

----------


## Johnny

> The Green Lantern fanbase is divided among the different Lanterns as is, so prioritizing investing resources into rehabilitating Hal's image on the big screen after his disastrous first outing doesn't seem worth the risk, especially as the straight white male superhero isn't really a cinematic novelty any more.


So Hal should be swept under the rug because he's a white guy who was in a bad movie? We could use the same logic for the likes of Hulk, Daredevil, Wolverine, Punisher and many others over the years. Lots of them turned out alright, why should Hal Jordan be less worthy than any of them.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> An Old Man Bats movie can put a lot of distance between itself and the Snyderverse simply by being well made.


Yes, there really isn't any drastic need to reboot (yet) when things can be salvaged just by telling good stories.

I've seen some segments of the fandom say that Affleck and Cavill need to go because they are the faces of this less than successful franchise, which would be punishing the actors for shit they have no control over. Cavill especially seems to still want to be on board, he deserves another shot with different people behind the camera.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So Hal should be swept under the rug because he's a white guy who was in a bad movie? We could use the same logic for Hulk, Daredevil, Wolverine, Punisher and many others over the years. Lots of them turned out alright, why should Hal Jordan be less worthy than any of them.


So you want Hal to be relegated to a streaming service series or never have his own solo movie again? Coz that's the fate of all those characters you listed except Wolverine, and Hal is no Wolverine (he's no Wolverine *being played by Hugh Jackman* to be more specific).

----------


## Carabas

> So Hal should be swept under the rug because he's a white guy who was in a bad movie? We could use the same logic for the likes of Hulk, Daredevil, Wolverine, Punisher and many others over the years. Lots of them turned out alright, why should Hal Jordan be less worthy than any of them.


Well, one huge difference between Hal and those others is that there are a number of alternatives here that are also bonafide Green Lanterns with hundreds of stories to their name.

There is no need to pick Hal. Green Lanterns are a dime a dozen.

----------


## Johnny

> So you want Hal to be relegated to a streaming service series or never have his own solo movie again? Coz that's the fate of all those characters you listed except Wolverine, and Hal is no Wolverine.


It makes little difference to me whether it's a movie or a Netflix show, as long as it helps restoring the image of a good character. The aforementioned shows did just that. Hal Jordan should not be an exception just because of the fact that he was unfortunate enough to be in a bad movie, or let alone due to his ethnicity. What does that even mean, should they bury any white male character who's been in a bad movie now.

----------


## Johnny

> Well, one huge difference between Hal and those others is that there are a number of alternatives here that are also bonafide Green Lanterns with hundreds of stories to their name.
> 
> There is no need to pick Hal. Green Lanterns are a dime a dozen.


So Hal "isn't worth the risk" because... there's other characters with the same powerset...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Ditching Hal completely is hardly necessary when there is enough precedent for having more than one Earth Lantern.

The DCEU can have Hal and John at the very least, if not the others as well.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It makes little difference to me whether it's a movie or a Netflix show, as long as it helps restoring the image of a good character. The aforementioned shows did just that.


You really think a streaming service can afford the VFX required for a Green Lantern movie? The best you'll get is some weird Smallville-ish take on Hal pre-Abin Sur as a trainee for test piloting.  :Stick Out Tongue:  




> What does that even mean, should they bury any white male character who's been in a bad movie now.


Which isn't what I said at all. I said it's not wise to prioritize rehabilitating him over sequels to movies starring minority or female characters who have brought in the big bucks for DC.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> Ditching Hal completely is hardly necessary when there is enough precedent for having more than one Earth Lantern.
> 
> The DCEU can have Hal and John at the very least, if not the others as well.


I agree with this!

----------


## Johnny

> Which isn't what I said at all. I said it's not wise to prioritize rehabilitating him over sequels to movies starring minority or female characters who have brought in the big bucks for DC.


And I never suggested he should be "prioritized" over other characters, I said he shouldn't be swept under the rug based on his group identity or being in a bad movie where the choice of protagonist wasn't the problem.

----------


## kjn

> If the movies are good, it will.





> An Old Man Bats movie can put a lot of distance between itself and the Snyderverse simply by being well made.


Because the actors are fundamentally tied to how movies are marketed, and movies are not marketed in a vacuum. Justice League pretty much bombed, and that was because of Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad. Even Wonder Woman started in a hole, but managed to make itself successful thanks to sheer quality and reaching a new audience.

Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill can be great actors (even if they IMO didn't get to show it in these movies), and that they were cast in bad movies should not be held against them. But at the same time, they are tied to the current run which is in the hole. Here it's not so much about making great movies, but in making the audience think that they won't get to see another crappy movie. Neither Affleck nor Cavill will help in reaching a new audience, and they are the faces of the current broken franchise.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Which isn't what I said at all. I said it's not wise to prioritize rehabilitating him over *sequels to movies starring minority or female characters* who have brought in the big bucks for DC.


Well Wonder Woman 2 is already getting prioritized as it's in production, and the BOP film with Harley is already in the rumor stage whereas we've gotten nothing on the GL front in a while. So he's not getting prioritized over the women. And by sequel to the movies with minority characters, do you mean Suicide Squad 2? Because making a sequel to that film is questionable because it was hardly as successful as it could have been had it been _good_, and the toxic RT rating big drop offs are an indicator that a sequel probably wouldn't do too well even if Smith and Robbie were in it. 

As for minority characters within the GL franchise, multiple GLs can be used and done to please as wide a fanbase as possible. Hal's fanbase can be appealed to without alienating others, and vice versa.

----------


## Carabas

> So Hal "isn't worth the risk" because... there's other characters with the same powerset...


Going back to Hal is an actual, real risk to a triple digit million dollar budget movie because people do remember the previous film. And it is a very easily avoided risk, so there is literally no reason whatsoever to chance it.

If it does well, maybe bring him in for the sequel.

----------


## Carabas

> Because the actors are fundamentally tied to how movies are marketed, and movies are not marketed in a vacuum. Justice League pretty much bombed, and that was because of Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad. Even Wonder Woman started in a hole, but managed to make itself successful thanks to sheer quality and reaching a new audience.
> 
> Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill can be great actors (even if they IMO didn't get to show it in these movies), and that they were cast in bad movies should not be held against them. But at the same time, they are tied to the current run which is in the hole. Here it's not so much about making great movies, but in making the audience think that they won't get to see another crappy movie. Neither Affleck nor Cavill will help in reaching a new audience, and they are the faces of the current broken franchise.


It all depends on how  Aquaman and Shazam! perform, I suppose. Because I think those are the shoulders this Batman movie will really have to stand on, not Snyder's movies.

----------


## Frontier

> Going back to Hal is an actual, real risk to a triple digit million dollar budget movie because people do remember the previous film. And it is a very easily avoided risk, so there is literally no reason whatsoever to chance it.
> 
> If it does well, maybe bring him in for the sequel.


I think the original film is going to hang over the movie whether Hal is in it or not. 

And I think the fact that they're probably going to pair him with another Lantern who will share focus in the movie will alleviate the issue of him being in it to some degree.

----------


## Johnny

> Going back to Hal is an actual, real risk to a triple digit million dollar budget movie because people do remember the previous film. And it is a very easily avoided risk, so there is literally no reason whatsoever to chance it.
> 
> If it does well, maybe bring him in for the sequel.


The risk boils down to WB once again investing in the Green Lantern property generally, not the Hal Jordan character specifically. Hal is no more risky as a character than anyone else carrying the Green Lantern mantle. Replacing him with someone else will not "avoid" the risk, the movie will still be called "Green Lantern", you'll still have posters of a character in a green suit with the name "Green Lantern" above and the main character(s) will still have the same powers, since it's the same brand. That's the real risk and the main reason WB is taking their time with it. The concept being so expensive to translate to screen plays a big part as well.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Going back to Hal is an actual, real risk to a triple digit million dollar budget movie because people do remember the previous film. And it is a very easily avoided risk, so there is literally no reason whatsoever to chance it.
> 
> If it does well, maybe bring him in for the sequel.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure nobody in the general audience blames Hal for the first Green Lantern movie any more than they blame Bruce Wayne for Batman Forever. The idea that WB is "risking" anything by going with Hal again is just a baseless straw man argument pushed by fans who want to champion their own personal favorite GL as opposed to any real fear of him not being able to perform. People didn't like the GL movie because it was just a poor movie, not because they just happened to pick Hal Jordan as the protagonist.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Going back to Hal is an actual, real risk to a triple digit million dollar budget movie because people do remember the previous film. And it is a very easily avoided risk, so there is literally no reason whatsoever to chance it.
> 
> If it does well, maybe bring him in for the sequel.


Hal alone isn't the problem. Seeing the name "Green Lantern" on the poster with the same costume and power sets is just going to remind people of the crappy movie and its dodgy special effects. It doesn't matter how many Lanterns are on said poster and what skin color they are. The property as a whole is toxic until proven otherwise. The general audience probably doesn't even remember the name Hal Jordan, they just reference Ryan Reynolds.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Why would they care about keeping him happy? The franchise has no future. SS had some of the worst week to week drops in history. It was profitable due to the initial rush and strong marketing, but once word of mouth got out its numbers tanked.


Very interested in seeing how SS 2 will do at the box office.  I thought JL was better than SS, came after the big hit WW, had her in it, had better reviews, and still made significantly less than SS.  WB should put this out next year and not wait till 2020 or later.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Well Wonder Woman 2 is already getting prioritized as it's in production, and the BOP film with Harley is already in the rumor stage whereas we've gotten nothing on the GL front in a while. So he's not getting prioritized over the women. And by sequel to the movies with minority characters, do you mean Suicide Squad 2? Because making a sequel to that film is questionable because it was hardly as successful as it could have been had it been _good_, and the toxic RT rating big drop offs are an indicator that a sequel probably wouldn't do too well even if Smith and Robbie were in it. 
> 
> As for minority characters within the GL franchise, multiple GLs can be used and done to please as wide a fanbase as possible. Hal's fanbase can be appealed to without alienating others, and vice versa.


Regarding Hal, I was literally answering a very specific post (Krypto's Fleas) who did suggest prioritizing rehabilitating Hal's image over stuff like BoP and SS2. If you're going to bother replying to a post, at least see the entire context it was made in. Sorry for being snippy but it's frustrating because both you and Johnny took my post out of context and attributed suggestions to me that I didn't make (i.e. "sweeping Hal under the rug" as Johnny said or "alienating his fanbase" as you said).

As for Suicide Squad, while I too think it left some money on the table, "hardly as successful _if_ it had been good" is a very hypothetical scenario that cannot realistically be proven. It was a success and even if it had been received well by critics, I don't think the increase would have been THAT much. Also, some aspects of the film that some people criticized about the film (the juggalo meets gangstah make-overs, the soundtrack populated with Top 40 artists etc.) proved to be VERY successful, especially among younger demographics.

The bottomline is WB came out with a special statement congratulating the film's success for boosting their revenue for that financial quarter, and specifically namechecked El Diablo for drawing in a large number of Latino audiences. So its sequel is worth prioritizing, especially when it comes to ensuring it retains what clicked with people the last time and improving upon what didn't work.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Very interested in seeing how SS 2 will do at the box office.  I thought JL was better than SS, came after the big hit WW, had her in it, had better reviews, and still made significantly less than SS.  WB should put this out next year and not wait till 2020 or later.


SS had far more hooks for audiences than JL, to the point where SS, like WW, was immune to the toxicity surrounding BvS. It was observed that Hispanic and black male audiences turned up in larger numbers for SS than your average superhero movie, and WB credited it to the inclusion of characters like El Diablo and Deadshot played by Will Smith.

I think SS2 will do fine if it is decent quality wise and capitalizes on marketing to those demographics. This rumor of including The Rock's Black Adam seems a step in the right direction for that. Also, it will probably have something the first movie didn't have: a China release, and they love The Rock and claim to like Will Smith a lot too.

----------


## Battomann

> Because the actors are fundamentally tied to how movies are marketed, and movies are not marketed in a vacuum. Justice League pretty much bombed, and that was because of Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad. Even Wonder Woman started in a hole, but managed to make itself successful thanks to sheer quality and reaching a new audience.
> 
> Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill can be great actors (even if they IMO didn't get to show it in these movies), and that they were cast in bad movies should not be held against them. But at the same time, they are tied to the current run which is in the hole. Here it's not so much about making great movies, but in making the audience think that they won't get to see another crappy movie. Neither Affleck nor Cavill will help in reaching a new audience, and they are the faces of the current broken franchise.


Well, I haven't read comics in ages. And what I had last read were Dark Horse Star Wars and manga--this is my 12th year in Japan. Last comic I read was Miller's TDK. I had grown annoyed with superhero movies beginning with Batman Forever with the exception of TDK trilogy, still the greatest superhero movie series. Then came the MCU, which I think overall is excellent and is huge here in Japan.

I wondered when would DC respond. It appears to be a rough start. I hope they can right the ship.

When I had heard that Nolan was doing Superman, I was excited, only to learn that he wouldn't write and direct. MoS was good, but didn't wow me, perhaps I was too attached to Terence Stamp. 

I really wanted to see BvS, but was too busy and then disappointed with the reception. Seems nothing but bad news for DC until WW, which was great. I hope new showrunning will help DC. 

I rewatched MoS and thought it was great. I'm about to watch BvS and then JL for the first time. I liked Cavill alot as Superman and I hear good things about Affleck. If I think they're the right choices after tonight, I'd hope DC continues to use them.

One reason I'm here is because whereas I had wondered if the superhero genre was being overdone, MCU's continud success, especially BP, has shown otherwise. And now I'm back into reading comics, TDK and New 52 Batman.

----------


## kjn

> Very interested in seeing how SS 2 will do at the box office.  I thought JL was better than SS, came after the big hit WW, had her in it, had better reviews, and still made significantly less than SS.  WB should put this out next year and not wait till 2020 or later.


I think what happened was that _Batman v Superman_ and _Suicide Squad_, while financially successful, put both Wonder Woman and Justice League in the hole. _Wonder Woman_ was good enough and had enough reach towards an underserved demographic that it could climb out of that hole; _Justice League_ had neither.

I do think a Cyborg movie makes more sense than most of the announced movies, with a black director, and focusing on a black man considered a monster by the environment around him, being taught that he is a monster, and his way out of that. In a way, taking one of the issues that _Black Panther_ hinted at but dropped, and going all-in on that one.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Regarding Hal, I was literally answering a very specific post (Krypto's Fleas) who did suggest prioritizing rehabilitating Hal's image over stuff like BoP and SS2. If you're going to bother replying to a post, at least see the entire context it was made in. Sorry for being snippy but it's frustrating because both you and Johnny took my post out of context and attributed suggestions to me that I didn't make (i.e. "sweeping Hal under the rug" as Johnny said or "alienating his fanbase" as you said).


I did read your post, and I agree that prioritizing Hal over BOP specifically isn't a necessarily a good idea, but that doesn't mean rehabilitating Hal shouldn't be worth considering. I was more responding to your next statement. 




> IMO that would be far less effective than a possible AM, Shazam, WW2, BoP, SS2 and The Batman line-up. WW2, BoP and SS2 are being prioritized because the first _Wonder Woman_ and _Suicide Squad_ managed to mint money thanks to serving to demographics who didn't see enough representation in DC's competitors (mainly women, Latino audiences and in a pre-Black Panther landscape, African-American audiences). 
> 
> The Green Lantern fanbase is divided among the different Lanterns as is, so prioritizing investing resources into rehabilitating *Hal's image on the big screen after his disastrous first outing doesn't seem worth the risk, especially as the straight white male superhero isn't really a cinematic novelty any more.*


That's once again reducing Hal to being just a straight white male (Marvel is still full of them, and people turn up to see them all the time) and holding up the poor adaptation as proof that he isn't worth the risk is a sore sport for Hal fans. It blames the character for the shitty product he was put in. Sorry, but as Hal fans, I and I imagine Johnny just get sick of all the excuses we hear that Hal shouldn't be used for a previous adaptation that wasn't his fault. If straight while male protagonists are not a novelty, why not put Batman on the back burner? He has more than enough media exposure, he can make cameos in the spin offgs, and the DCEU one isn't as widely embraced as he should be, and is more known for the "MARTHA!" meme than anything else. Meanwhile, re-introduce a new Hal alongside at least John, if not other Earth GLs. 




> That cannot realistically be proven. It was a success and even if it had been received well by critics, I don't think the increase would have been THAT much. Also, some aspects of the film that some people criticized about the film (the juggalo meets gangstah make-overs, the soundtrack populated with Top 40 artists etc.) proved to be VERY successful, especially among younger demographics.


It cannot realistically be proven, but if I were WB common sense would dictate that I proceed with caution after seeing the 27% RT score and the steep second week drop. It had a killer marketing campaign that lead to the big box office opening, but said marketing also promised a lot of Joker, and well he had like 5 minutes of screen time. Casual audiences are not going to be fooled twice, and combined with JL bombing, if they see the DC logo they are not automatically going to trust it. Especially when paired with a sequel to a critically panned first movie. If I were WB, I'd move the film's greatest asset (Harley) into BOP like they are planning on doing, and find other avenues to provide POC representation like John as one of the GL leads, do something with characters like Vixen, Black Lightning, Blue Beetle, etc.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Suicide Squad made money due to Joker and Harleys popularity, Will Smiths star power, and yes a very good trailer. But the movie itself was pretty bad. I think the only way a sequel would generate anywhere near the level of hype as the first one is if the rumored debut of The Rock as Black Adam happens. I can see something along the lines of Waller realizing she needs a Superman level threat on her team and sending in the Squad to find Adams tomb. Maybe theres another team like The Jihad or the Russian Suicide Squad also trying to find Black Adam.


I've still only seem SS once, the weekend it came out lol.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I've still only seem SS once, the weekend it came out lol.


Same. And while people enjoyed themselves, there were more then a few who loudly declared that it sucked. Most people I talk to only say they liked Harley and consider the rest of the movie just ok or outright terrible.

----------


## Johnny

> That's once again reducing Hal to being just a straight white male (Marvel is still full of them, and people turn up to see them all the time) and holding up the poor adaptation as proof that he isn't worth the risk is a sore sport for Hal fans. It blames the character for the shitty product he was put in. Sorry, but as Hal fans, I and I imagine Johnny just get sick of all the excuses we hear that Hal shouldn't be used for a previous adaptation that wasn't his fault. If straight while male protagonists are not a novelty, why not put Batman on the back burner? He has more than enough media exposure, he can make cameos in the spin offgs, and the DCEU one isn't as widely embraced as he should be, and is more known for the "MARTHA!" meme than anything else. Meanwhile, re-introduce a new Hal alongside at least John, if not other Earth GLs.

----------


## Slim Shady

I kinda liked SS. Wouldn't say I loved it or call it great, but I enjoyed it. I don't think it was the garbage a lot of people say it is. On top of all the money it made at the box office, it also brought in big money and sales in the home media market after the theaters. That's a bit of a sign that the box office numbers weren't a fluke and people actually liked it.

So I think SS2 will do good. You got a superstar in Will Smith, and his role was one of the bright spots of the first film. You got a money maker in Harley Quinn, who outside of the comics might be the most popular DC character after the trinity. And to me, Margot as Harley is worth the price of admission alone. And the sequel has a pretty good director that can tell a good story on film, that's the biggest difference to me, I think the movie itself will be better than the first.

I'm interested to see what Aquaman does. If it follows Dark Knight and WW and sticks to it's own world and does it's own thing, and if the visuals are as good as they're saying, I think it can be big.

----------


## Skedatz

Instead of the straight laced but cocky Hal, DC should take a swing at Kyle Rayner.  He offers a bit of comedic relief though can remain very serious.  He's a bit younger, can offer diversity, and it would avoid the Hal thing altogether.

----------


## Slim Shady

I just don't think DC needs to avoids Hal. Regardless of the first film, he's still kind of the face of GL to the general public. I say go all out and throw in John and Guy and Kyle and Jessica and make like a Green Lantern Corps movie.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

This is the one franchise where they don't have to avoid anybody in particular, and can introduce multiple characters at once. Hal by himself didn't make that movie crappy, if John or Kyle had been in it with the same creative team behind the camera we'd get a similar result. Prioritizing other projects over the GL property in general considering how it failed the first time around and how expensive it is, and how the DCEU brand is nowhere near strong enough to get the audience to trust them for GL Round 2, is one thing. Pointing out Hal specifically as a problem or being beyond redemption is *always* a strawman.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> I've still only seem SS once, the weekend it came out lol.





> Same. And while people enjoyed themselves, there were more then a few who loudly declared that it sucked. Most people I talk to only say they liked Harley and consider the rest of the movie just ok or outright terrible.


I only saw the film once, as well.

That film should have been so much more with the cast and characters involved, imo.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I liked the Ace Chemical scene thought it was genuinely the best scene in the movie and it was a flashback...

----------


## Jokerz79

> I only saw the film once, as well.
> 
> That film should have been so much more with the cast and characters involved, imo.


I thought MR was good as Harley but when I feel like watching Suicide Squad I always end up preferring to watch one of the animated films over the live action one.

----------


## El_Gato

I think introducing multiple Earth Green Lanterns makes a whole lot of sense in the context of the DCEU. According to continuity, in the span of 4 years Earth has been invaded by Kryptonians, Parademons/Steppenwolf, and a powerful ancient sorceress. The Guardians would be fools to only assign one or two humans ti Earth. Give us all of them, or at least Hal, John and Jessica.

----------


## Vakanai

As to the Green Lantern discussion, I think the best route, whoever the GL is, is to introduce them in a team up movie or have them as support in another character's movie and build up trust and interest before doing a proper GL film again. Right now the Green Lantern title is toxic to audiences and making another character instead of Hal won't change that - convince people you can make a good GL film first, then worry about the best GLs to put on the screen.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> As to the Green Lantern discussion, I think the best route, whoever the GL is, is to introduce them in a team up movie or have them as support in another character's movie and build up trust and interest before doing a proper GL film again. Right now the Green Lantern title is toxic to audiences and making another character instead of Hal won't change that - convince people you can make a good GL film first, then worry about the best GLs to put on the screen.


lol. That's what I (unsolicited) suggested that kicked off this GL debate that's gotten heated.

----------


## Vakanai

> lol. That's what I (unsolicited) suggested that kicked off this GL debate that's gotten heated.


Fans can't resist heated debates for some reason.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That's once again reducing Hal to being just a straight white male (Marvel is still full of them, and people turn up to see them all the time)


How many of their solo films, especially solo origin films, make as much as Black Panther or even Wonder Woman though? Of course, I didn't even mention not considering rehabilitating Hal's image _ever_ but do keep putting words into my mouth.

----------


## Jokerz79

> How many of their solo films, especially solo origin films, make as much as Black Panther or even Wonder Woman though? Of course, I didn't even mention not considering rehabilitating Hal's image _ever_ but do keep putting words into my mouth.


Spider-Man Homecoming and Thor Ragnarok both out preformed Wonder Woman at the Box Office in 2017. Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, & Batman all have billion dollar movies in their franchises Superman 78 when adjusted for inflation is a billion dollar movie. I'm not even a Hal fan I'd rather see Kyle or John personally but Black or White Male or Female doesn't matter if the story is good anyone can be profitable.

----------


## Raijin

> I think that one of the most frustrating parts about this. You can barely express liking any of the films without some random jerk labeling you as an apologist or not a real fan of DC. If I can accept people liking the Injustice games despite my belief of them represnting what I think is the biggest problem with DC, why cant people accept that there are people who any of the DCEU films and dont feel any guilt for it?


I see a lot of that in this thread. You aren't allowed to express anything other than dislike of these movies, which is why i just lurk most of the time. Everyone gets something different out of films.

----------


## golgi

> Spider-Man Homecoming and Thor Ragnarok both out preformed Wonder Woman at the Box Office in 2017. Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, & Batman all have billion dollar movies in their franchises Superman 78 when adjusted for inflation is a billion dollar movie. I'm not even a Hal fan I'd rather see Kyle or John personally but Black or White Male or Female doesn't matter if the story is good anyone can be profitable.


Wonder Woman's run was historic, though. It's the only modern super hero movie to have a 4x multiplier. Coming off the other DCEU stinkers (in terms of reviews), WW did very well, and made more profit than Spider-Man Homecoming or Thor Ragnarok. In fact, Wonder Woman was the most profitable super hero movie in 2017.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Spider-Man Homecoming and Thor Ragnarok both out preformed Wonder Woman at the Box Office in 2017. Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, & Batman all have billion dollar movies in their franchises Superman 78 when adjusted for inflation is a billion dollar movie. I'm not even a Hal fan I'd rather see Kyle or John personally but Black or White Male or Female doesn't matter if the story is good anyone can be profitable.


The sixth Spider-Man film featuring Iron Man and the third Thor film featuring Hulk did more than the first Wonder Woman film? Shocking.

And Black Panther managed to outdo all of them anyway by crazy numbers. Using the example of MCU heroes played by actors since close to a decade now is also a misleading comparison as they've had a lot of time to build brand goodwill (especially overseas) and they are actually contributing to the oversaturation of white male heroes, making it increasingly difficult for one to break out in the way Black Panther or Wonder Woman did right off the bat.

Even Aquaman and Shazam are better off focusing on Momoa's Arthur's South Pacific heritage and the diverse mix of the Shazam Family kids to stand out from the crowd.

----------


## Johnny

It's not simply "diversity" itself that sells a comic book movie, it's a combination of the franchise it's a part of, the cast and crew involved in it and most importantly the marketing. Black Panther had all of those in its favor, combined with a breakout role in Civil War, that's why it ended up making the numbers it did. And even if hadn't done a $1.3 billion, it was never going to bomb or underperform. So no, "oversaturation of white males heroes" is not a problem, it's what you do with the characters and how you choose to promote them. Deadpool is an obvious example for that, he's a disfigured white guy and he makes tons of money because it's a different type of cbm.

----------


## Carabas

> It's not simply "diversity" itself that sells a comic book movie, it's a combination of the franchise it's a part of, the cast and crew involved in it and most importantly the marketing. Black Panther had all of those in its favor, combined with a breakout role in Civil War, that's why it ended up making the numbers it did. And even if hadn't done a $1.3 billion, it was never going to bomb or underperform. So no, "oversaturation of white males heroes" is not a problem, it's what you do with the characters and how you choose to promote them. Deadpool is an obvious example for that, he's a disfigured white guy and he makes tons of money because it's a different type of cbm.


Deadpool is of course a movie franchise that is plenty diverse. And clearly diversity is a big selling point in 2021. 

Seriously, are you just that big a Hal Jordan fanatic?

----------


## Darkseid Is

Cast Oscar Issac as Hal please. He felt like Hal in both Star Wars movies and it will make all the people obsessed with race happy. I said before Keith Davis is my dream Darkseid, Oscar Issac is my dream Hal.

----------


## Johnny

> Deadpool is of course a movie franchise that is plenty diverse. And clearly diversity is a big selling point in 2021. 
> 
> Seriously, are you just that big a Hal Jordan fanatic?


What's your problem? What does being a Hal Jordan fan have to do with this? All I previously said in regards to Hal was that it's not anymore risky to use him than it is to use anyone else carrying the GL mantle.

You can't sell a movie based on diversity alone. If that was the case, both A Wrinkle in Time and Ghostbusters would've made a billion dollars.

----------


## Carabas

> What's your problem? What does being a Hal Jordan fan have to do with this? All I previously said in regards to Hal was that it's not anymore risky to use him than it is to use anyone else carrying the GL mantle.
> 
> You can't sell a movie based on diversity alone. If that was the case, both A Wrinkle in Time and Ghostbusters would've made a billion dollars.


Diversity is A factor, nobody ever said it's the only one.
The Ghostbusters movie would probably have done worse if it had been the exact same movie except with four white guys.

and I asked because a Green Lantern movie that doesn't centre around Hal Jordan seems like an abomination to you.




> Cast Oscar Issac as Hal please. He felt like Hal in both Star Wars movies and it will make all the people obsessed with race happy. I said before Keith Davis is my dream Darkseid, Oscar Issac is my dream Hal.


Hmm... I can see this.
Yes, I think he'd be a great Hal.

----------


## Confuzzled

Oscar Isaac playing yet another pilot?  :Stick Out Tongue:  I think he'd be better suited for Orion.

----------


## Johnny

> Diversity is A factor, nobody ever said it's the only one.
> The Ghostbusters movie would probably have done worse if it had been the exact same movie except with four white guys.


I had no clue who Leslie Jones or Kate McKinnon were before I saw the trailer for that movie. If you had 4 mediocre white male actors in an even more mediocre movie, it would've made the exact same numbers.




> and I asked because a Green Lantern movie that doesn't centre around Hal Jordan seems like an abomination to you.


Perhaps you should stop assuming too much about me then. As long as a Green Lantern movie is good, I would enjoy it regardless if it's centered around Hal or not. My argument was that Hal wasn't anymore "risky" to use in the movie than any other Lantern. The Green Lantern property is what's considered to be toxic, not the Hal Jordan character specifically. The vast majority of the people who would go see it have no clue about the name Hal Jordan anyway. They don't care about what's the ethnicity or biological sex of the main characters, all they want is an entertaining movie they could go see with their friends or family. If the movie gives them that, they would see it, if not they would avoid it like it's the plague like they did with the 2011 movie.

----------


## Carabas

> I had no clue who Leslie Jones or Kate McKinnon were before I saw the trailer for that movie. If you had 4 mediocre white male actors in an even more mediocre movie, it would've made the exact same numbers.


I disagree.




> Perhaps you should stop assuming too much about me then. As long as a Green Lantern movie is good, I would enjoy it regardless if it's centered around Hal or not. My argument was that Hal wasn't anymore "risky" to use in the movie than any other Lantern...


Try again. You've been going on about this way before I said Hal is riskier than his colleagues.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> My argument was that Hal wasn't anymore "risky" to use in the movie than any other Lantern.


Unless there's non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary, I believe that's 100% right.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The sixth Spider-Man film featuring Iron Man and the third Thor film featuring Hulk did more than the first Wonder Woman film? Shocking.
> 
> And Black Panther managed to outdo all of them anyway by crazy numbers. Using the example of MCU heroes played by actors since close to a decade now is also a misleading comparison as they've had a lot of time to build brand goodwill (especially overseas) and they are actually contributing to the oversaturation of white male heroes, making it increasingly difficult for one to break out in the way Black Panther or Wonder Woman did right off the bat.
> 
> Even Aquaman and Shazam are better off focusing on Momoa's Arthur's South Pacific heritage and the diverse mix of the Shazam Family kids to stand out from the crowd.


Wonder Woman made 821 million so did Spider-Man 2002 and that's not even adjusting for inflation and only had a 139 million dollar budget and that was 2002 dollars and his sequels all made more. Iron Man 3 no cameos outside of Rhodey made over a Billion dollars as did Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises origin films doing great is fantastic sequels doing better is even better because it shows the brand is growing for a studio. Also though plenty of films with straight white guys fail even when connected to well known franchises like Robocop 2014 as does diverse films too while diverse films do great too heck going way back Marvel's first cinematic hit was Blade if a movie is good people will come. 

Also I again personally prefer Alan Scott, Kyle Rayner, and John Stewart over Hal Jordan who I find uninteresting and honestly a bit of a "Mary Sue" with how lauded he is in an organization thousands of years old with thousands of members. But dismissing Hal over race and gender is foolish IMO when under the premise he won't be as profitable as a more diverse characters. I also think it downgrades the achievements of films like Black Panther and Wonder Woman taking the success earned by the filmmakers and giving it to race and gender those films being good had a major factor in helping them Ryan Coogler and Patty Jenkins had more to do with the success than the characters IMO just like Thor being a white guy had way less impact on Thor Ragnarok success than the creative direction of Taika Waititi. It's like saying Deadpool did well because it was rated R while ignoring the real factor was the Studio allowed the creative side freedom to allow Deadpool be Deadpool.

----------


## Johnny

> I disagree.


Okay.




> Try again. You've been going on about this way before I said Hal is riskier than his colleagues.


What have I been going on about to earn being called a "fanatic" for it? In what way are my opinions towards the character obsessive or unreasonable to be conflated with fanaticism? If I have defended him before, it was because I must've felt he was either being unjustly criticized or blamed for something that wasn't on him. How does this make me a fanatic and in a place where comic book readers gather with the very idea to discuss and occasionally debate these characters.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> I thought MR was good as Harley but when I feel like watching Suicide Squad I always end up preferring to watch one of the animated films over the live action one.


I enjoyed the recent SS animated film.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Wonder Woman made 821 million so did Spider-Man 2002 and that's not even adjusting for inflation and only had a 139 million dollar budget and that was 2002 dollars and his sequels all made more. Iron Man 3 no cameos outside of Rhodey made over a Billion dollars as did Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises origin films doing great is fantastic sequels doing better is even better because it shows the brand is growing for a studio. Also though plenty of films with straight white guys fail even when connected to well known franchises like Robocop 2014 as does diverse films too while diverse films do great too heck going way back Marvel's first cinematic hit was Blade if a movie is good people will come. 
> 
> Also I again personally prefer Alan Scott, Kyle Rayner, and John Stewart over Hal Jordan who I find uninteresting and honestly a bit of a "Mary Sue" with how lauded he is in an organization thousands of years old with thousands of members. But dismissing Hal over race and gender is foolish IMO when under the premise he won't be as profitable as a more diverse characters. I also think it downgrades the achievements of films like Black Panther and Wonder Woman taking the success earned by the filmmakers and giving it to race and gender those films being good had a major factor in helping them Ryan Coogler and Patty Jenkins had more to do with the success than the characters IMO just like Thor being a white guy had way less impact on Thor Ragnarok success than the creative direction of Taika Waititi. It's like saying Deadpool did well because it was rated R while ignoring the real factor was the Studio allowed the creative side freedom to allow Deadpool be Deadpool.


Did you even... read the post you were quoting? Wow, what a waste of digital ink (though of course this is not the first time I have seen you obtusely ignore points in a post while arguing with the _same_ post which is why I can barely take you seriously now).

----------


## Carabas

> What have I been going on about to earn being called a "fanatic" for it?


You do know where the word "fan" comes from, right?

Also, an excellent exercise in dodging the question. You are very good in avoiding giving reasons why movies have to centre around a white male character in this thread and various others.

----------


## Johnny

> You do know where the word "fan" comes from, right?


I know where the word "fan" comes from, but we all know what you meant by "fanatic". Whatever.




> Also, an excellent exercise in dodging the question. You are very good in avoiding giving reasons why movies have to centre around a white male character in this thread and various others.


Apparently not as good as you trying to put words in people's mouths to suit your narrative. Can you show me where I said movies "have to" center around white male characters? My only argument was that characters should not be put on the back burner based on their ethnicity or gender. That's relegating characters who have been around for decades merely to their external qualities, which isn't right no matter what those qualities are.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> You do know where the word "fan" comes from, right?
> 
> Also, an excellent exercise in dodging the question. You are very good in avoiding giving reasons why movies have to centre around a white male character in this thread and various others.


It hardly seems unusual for a fan of any character to take issue with the idea that their character isn't worth the risk of being used. Especially for the dubious reason of one bad previous adaptation that would have sucked if John or Kyle were in it in his place. 

Diversity doesn't have to be pushed aside for Hal. Hal can be used with any number of the other Earth GL's. It can very easily be an ensemble picture.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

Geoff is taking a more hands on approach to the GLC film. Hal feature prominently, no doubt. Hopefully, this film presentation will outshine the previous one.

----------


## Frontier

> Cast Oscar Issac as Hal please. He felt like Hal in both Star Wars movies and it will make all the people obsessed with race happy. I said before Keith Davis is my dream Darkseid, Oscar Issac is my dream Hal.


I could see it  :Smile: .



> It hardly seems unusual for a fan of any character to take issue with the idea that their character isn't worth the risk of being used. Especially for the dubious reason of one bad previous adaptation that would have sucked if John or Kyle were in it in his place. 
> 
> Diversity doesn't have to be pushed aside for Hal. Hal can be used with any number of the other Earth GL's. It can very easily be an ensemble picture.


Yeah, there's plenty of diversity in the GL franchise if handled well, without needing to throw Hal aside.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, there's plenty of diversity in the GL franchise if handled well, without needing to throw Hal aside.


Hal's Jewish right? That counts as diversity doesn't it?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Frontier

> Hal's Jewish right? That counts as diversity doesn't it?


Probably depends who you ask (I'm Jewish but I'm not that particular about it)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## kjn

> You do know where the word "fan" comes from, right?


#if_pedant_fan_history_mode
There are two theories. The orthodox one is indeed that it comes from "fanatic". The other theory is that it comes from "fancy" (which itself was a contraction of "fantasy"); using "the fancy" was used in Britain during the 19th century to describe groups of followers of sports teams or athletes, and this usage was later shortened to just "fan".

For myself, I believe the latter etymology is more sensible, especially since it carries exactly the same meaning as when "the fancy" was coined.
#end_pedant_fan_history_mode

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah, there's plenty of diversity in the GL franchise if handled well, without needing to throw Hal aside.


I feel like this is the one property where it's easiest to include as many characters as possible to please multiple parts of the fanbase at once.

And yet, here we are. 




> Hal's Jewish right? That counts as diversity doesn't it?


I don't see how it could hurt. There's always room for more positive representation for any group. An adaptation could play up Hal's Jewish roots.

----------


## BatmanJones

> Probably depends who you ask (I'm Jewish but I'm not that particular about it) .


I'm Jewish too. Or rather, I'm Jew-ish. Haven't been to synagogue since my Bar Mitzvah. I'm an atheist; I claim the culture but not the Old Testament. That's one of the nice things about Judaism. You can be an atheist and Jew at once. Judaism doesn't require one to believe in god.

As for Hal, well, we've been told he's Jewish but that's as far as it's gone. It's never had an ounce of impact on his character.

----------


## Carabas

> #if_pedant_fan_history_mode
> There are two theories. The orthodox one is indeed that it comes from "fanatic". The other theory is that it comes from "fancy" (which itself was a contraction of "fantasy"); using "the fancy" was used in Britain during the 19th century to describe groups of followers of sports teams or athletes, and this usage was later shortened to just "fan".
> 
> For myself, I believe the latter etymology is more sensible, especially since it carries exactly the same meaning as when "the fancy" was coined.
> #end_pedant_fan_history_mode


I did not know that.

----------


## Johnny

> 


Gosh, I'm so tired of all the drama.

----------


## Johnny

> As for Hal, well, we've been told he's Jewish but that's as far as it's gone. It's never had an ounce of impact on his character.


Yeah, Hal is Jewish by ethnicity but not by practice. Matter of fact, he doesn't seem to care less about any religious ideologies and judging by Tom King's Darkseid War GL special, he doesn't seem to think anymore highly of deities than he does of any other beings of higher power.

----------


## Triple J

> One of Johns' first projects will be Green Lantern Corps, based on DC’s intergalactic police heroes which Johns is already very familiar with, having spent nine years writing Green Lantern comics and its spinoffs and publishing events. Johns will write the screenplay and act as one of the producers on the feature film. Johns is already writing and producing Wonder Woman 2 and will have a co-writing and executive producing credit on Aquaman, this year's only DC offering that opens in December.


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/am...g-deal-1118131

Check his new company's website: http://www.madghostproductions.com/category/film/

----------


## Angelo2113

Tweets from Kyle Buchanan, Vulture's Senior Editor

I remember hearing that Geoff Johns rewrote so much of JUSTICE LEAGUE when Zack Snyder was still directing that Chris Terrio would complain, "Maybe *try* using some of my pages?"

WB was allegedly so unsatisfied with how the Johns/Snyder version was shaping up that they convened a footage summit for *other* writers including Joss Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Seth Grahame-Smith, and Andrea Berloff to offer feedback. Then they hired Whedon.

----------


## Black_Adam

> 


I honestly wish he would just get off social media altogether, I have my suspicions he is very passive aggressively encouraging the obsessive, toxic, hostile behaviour of his fans or more appropriately his "flock".

What a difference a few years makes, after MoS I was one of Zack's biggest supporters now I just wish he would have nothing to do with DC ever again.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Is that an actual image of his Vero likes or is that a shop?

Because I did an image search and the only place it turned up was a thread from the DCEU reddit that was tagged as [HUMOR]

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Is that an actual image of his Vero likes or is that a shop?
> 
> Because I did an image search and the only place it turned up was a thread from the DCEU reddit that was tagged as [HUMOR]


This kind of "fun" responses get tagged as humor. Even the latest Clay Enos' post ended up under "Humor"...

https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...form_far_away/

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

First ‘Aquaman’ trailer is coming this week: https://batman-news.com/2018/06/12/f...ing-this-week/

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Tweets from Kyle Buchanan, Vulture's Senior Editor
> 
> I remember hearing that Geoff Johns rewrote so much of JUSTICE LEAGUE when Zack Snyder was still directing that Chris Terrio would complain, "Maybe *try* using some of my pages?"
> 
> WB was allegedly so unsatisfied with how the Johns/Snyder version was shaping up that they convened a footage summit for *other* writers including Joss Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Seth Grahame-Smith, and Andrea Berloff to offer feedback. Then they hired Whedon.


If true, they spent A LOT of time and money on something that turned out to be a very basic story. Which might explain why WB are so cagey about announcing a slate of movies or giving definite answers about how they'll handle their DC films moving forward, as a lot of JL's troubles stemmed from building heavily on stuff from BvS, which they only realized was a bad idea when JL was already deep into production.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> First ‘Aquaman’ trailer is coming this week: https://batman-news.com/2018/06/12/f...ing-this-week/


Yes! Can't wait!

----------


## Confuzzled

> If true, they spent A LOT of time and money on something that turned out to be a very basic story. Which might explain why WB are so cagey about announcing a slate of movies or giving definite answers about how they'll handle their DC films moving forward, as a lot of JL's troubles stemmed from building heavily on stuff from BvS, which they only realized was a bad idea when JL was already deep into production.


I don't understand why they insisted on keeping that production start date with Justice League even when they saw how BvS was received. I guess it was simply because BvS did make money.

----------


## kjn

> I don't understand why they insisted on keeping that production start date with Justice League even when they saw how BvS was received. I guess it was simply because BvS did make money.


I've heard various stuff about that, including that bonuses for some executives over at WB were tied to JL appearing in 2017. Now, that is just rumours, and there are likely to be more reasons as well. Including that changing the mind of a large organisation often takes a long while, and it has a tendency to overcompensate afterwards.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the rumours and announcements about new films are because various groups within WB tries to keep their projects and thus their jobs safe. That WB is in the middle of a possible merger can't help any either.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I've heard various stuff about that, including that bonuses for some executives over at WB were tied to JL appearing in 2017. Now, that is just rumours, and there are likely to be more reasons as well. Including that changing the mind of a large organisation often takes a long while, and it has a tendency to overcompensate afterwards.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if all the rumours and announcements about new films are because various groups within WB tries to keep their projects and thus their jobs safe. *That WB is in the middle of a possible merger can't help any either.*


Oh, that ruling is today, isn't it? Any idea when it will be announced?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> First ‘Aquaman’ trailer is coming this week: https://batman-news.com/2018/06/12/f...ing-this-week/


I might go see the new Jurassic World movie just to see it on the big screen and hear reactions.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> I feel like this is the one property where it's easiest to include as many characters as possible to please multiple parts of the fanbase at once.
> 
> And yet, here we are.


That's the crazy part!

----------


## Frontier

> First ‘Aquaman’ trailer is coming this week: https://batman-news.com/2018/06/12/f...ing-this-week/


About time  :Cool: .

----------


## Jokerz79

> I don't understand why they insisted on keeping that production start date with Justice League even when they saw how BvS was received. I guess it was simply because BvS did make money.


They already had sets built schedules lined up for crew and actors everything was in place they thought BvS was going to be a massive hit and it did well just not what they wanted and it would cost to much to stop the production. Now the real issue was why not after doing reshoots release it later and allow more time to fine tune the finale film and that rumor is that executives wouldn't get as much at their year end bonuses without Justice League being released in 2017 and some of these people might not around if the merger goes through and wanted the biggest bonuses they could get according to gossip.

----------


## kjn

(WB merger)




> Oh, that ruling is today, isn't it? Any idea when it will be announced?


No idea; I included it more because it's just another huge upheaval and uncertainty that's going on over at WB lately, no matter if the merger goes through or if it is OK'd.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

DC team breaks silence on James Wan's Aquaman: 'It's extraordinary': http://ew.com/movies/2018/06/12/james-wan-dc-aquaman/

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

The At&t/WB merger just went through according to a federal judge. What do you all think this means for DC? I'm hoping it expedites the plan for the DCEU so fans and the public can actually, for the first time, get a sense of what the plan is for this shared universe.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> DC team breaks silence on James Wan's Aquaman: 'It's extraordinary': http://ew.com/movies/2018/06/12/james-wan-dc-aquaman/


Good to hear. We obviously don't know if the story will be a success but the visuals absolutely have to be stunning and it sounds like they are.

----------


## Black_Adam

> DC team breaks silence on James Wan's Aquaman: 'It's extraordinary': http://ew.com/movies/2018/06/12/james-wan-dc-aquaman/


All hail our lord and saviour James Wan!  :Wink:

----------


## Zudomon

I'm still looking forward for Aquaman, but I don't take much value in DC saying it's going to be good lol.

----------


## Confuzzled

> The At&t/WB merger just went through according to a federal judge. What do you all think this means for DC? I'm hoping it expedites the plan for the DCEU so fans and the public can actually, for the first time, get a sense of what the plan is for this shared universe.


I think the DC streaming service will eventually become a general WB owned IP streaming service. AT&T would definitely want to stream non-DC related WB content and I don't see them having two services.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I might go see the new Jurassic World movie just to see it on the big screen and hear reactions.


You mean you weren't planning to watch it already? Dinosaurs man! 

(Btw did you change your user-name?)




> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/am...g-deal-1118131
> 
> Check his new company's website: http://www.madghostproductions.com/category/film/


Whoa man, not seen you for ages! Also you got a user-name change too, I see.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Steve Trevor is back in Wonder Woman 84. Patty Jenkins just released this:

https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...-1984-photo%2F

----------


## Black_Adam

So I take it Patty just confirmed Wonder Woman 84 is the official title?

It's crazy how we heard next to nothing about this movie and then bam! It had already begun filming, very good sign to see so little rumours and gossip around it. 

Probably the closest thing the DCEU has to a sure thing at the moment.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Steve Trevor is back in Wonder Woman 84. Patty Jenkins just released this:
> 
> https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...-1984-photo%2F


Interesting. The theme that he’s her “ghost” that somewhat haunts her conscience or feelings on humanity is an inteuiging theme imo.

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Heh. I think the one in the middle is that scene from Family Vacation where Christie Brinkley is flirting with Chevy Chase while they're driving?

----------


## Lightning Rider

> You mean you weren't planning to watch it already? Dinosaurs man! 
> 
> (Btw did you change your user-name?)


Haha I can’t lie, I was gonna anyway. (And yea I did!)

----------


## Triple J

> Whoa man, not seen you for ages! Also you got a user-name change too, I see.


Haha, I sort of gave up after JL. WB doesn't know how to handle their movies, at least not DC ones anyways.

I have hopes for Wan's Aquaman, and that's about it. And maybe WW2 (tbh, I didn't like WW very much, it was okay). At this point, I think they should focus on Vertigo/other titles than superhero ones (or maybe do one-off series..like Question and such). I don't necessarily see anything new in all these superhero movies.

Here's hoping that the merger results in better leadership in WB.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Steve Trevor is back in Wonder Woman 84. Patty Jenkins just released this:
> 
> https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...-1984-photo%2F


Patty Jenkins got the clothing right it's a weird thing to concentrate on but one of the things I love about Stranger Things is how right they got the look of 83 and 84 while X-Men Apocalypse's style choices were more late 80's in many characters looks and it's just something that irks me as someone who grew up in the 80's. Most people when thinking of 80's fashions think of the late 80's while the early and mid 80's looked completely different and it's just something that I appreciate when done right. So bravo to Patty and WW84.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I think one thing is certain for the merger. WB is going to have a much better idea of where they're heading for the future. Hence? They'll be able to plan better.

I think this impending merger, combined with an overambitious desire to catch up to Marvel, really were the biggest contributors to the DCEU's woes. An uncertain future makes it difficult to think long-term. 

Heck, part of the motivation to try and catch up with Marvel may have been to try and make WB a more attractive purchase for AT&T. "Look at us! We're on our way to having a CBM universe st least as good as Marvel's! Buy us!"

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Warner Bros. Shifts DC Strategy Amid Executive Change-Up: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-moves-1119489

----------


## Broddie

I don't really like the sound of this at all. More corporate involvement over creative seems like a death knell. I mean Harley in a BoP movie? Geeze talk about needing a clue. A shame too since I don't watch MCU movies I was hoping the DCEU got it together but they're clearly not interested in making the right repairs. No reason a Batfleck solo couldn't have happened and still be it's own thing.

I'll skip Matt Reeves' Batman movie. Not really a fan of the guy anyway. Saw one movie from him that I thought was ok. The rest bored me. I'm also not up for another Batman reboot at this time. We already had a young Batman trilogy from a filmmaker infinitely more talented than Reeves and it was uneven as frick. Seems to me like hollywood directors are just too one dimensional when it comes Batman and I'm sick of it.

As for DCEU Batman? If Affleck wants out kill him off then and replace him with Grayson. Bring in Bruce's long lost son Damian and basically make the DCEU Batverse a loose adaptation of the Grant Morrison Batman Reborn era from the comics going forward. Now that would be interesting and different for Batman on film and better reflective of Batman's true range. Plus Grayson always fit the collective DCU better than Bruce did. Of course they would never think of that.

I'll watch Aquaman, WW'84 and Shazam! But I think I'm out after that.

----------


## Robotman

So the Joker origin movie seems to be getting fast tracked. I don’t think it makes sense to have a 45 year old actor in Juaquin Phoenix playing a young Joker. And I also hate the idea of giving the Joker an official origin story. Maybe this is why Geoff Johns is writing his 3 Jokers series. To cover up the fact that Hollywood wants him to have an official origin. The 3 Jokers story will at least allow them to keep some ambiguity. Despite Scorsese’s involment I still have zero interest in this movie. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/06/13/j...-small-budget/

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

This week's been an interesting one, hasn't it? To get to the big items...

DC/WB's structure sounds like a freaking disaster. I get that they're trying to straighten things up, but, yeesh, no wonder things are messed up over there.

I'm sick of hearing competing will Affleck/won't Affleck come back or will Reeve's/won't Reeve's recast Batman stories every freaking week. It's tedious and obnoxious. Bottom line is: if it's Affleck, I'm in. If it's anybody else but him (or maybe Jensen Ackles, though that'd never happen), then I'm out.

I'm still down for _Aquaman_ (psyched that there's a trailer coming this week!), the _Wonder Woman_ sequel and _Green Lantern Corps_ (assuming that one actually happens). Everything else, barring a surprise _Man of Steel_ sequel, gets a big "Meh" from me. Not saying I won't see other movies: I just have to see something from them to get me interested.

----------


## Korath

If Reeves truly reboot Batman to have a younger Bruce Wayne, I'll be out of the DCEU. I don't want to see a young Batman coming to terms with his choices and discovering himself as a hero. If I want to see that, despite the fact that I don't really like them now, I'll always have Nolan's trilogy. Just fucking introduce Grayson, make him become Batman and voila, no need to basically say "You know what? Forgot all our previous movies". Because a Batman reboot, except if it was to happen in the past of the DCEU, would basically destroy all the previous movies with a Batman, and it's not just a secondary character like Rhodey was in Iron Man and Iron Man 2. They would need to recast everyone to have me even considering watching another movie of their. 

I'm interested in Aquaman, Shazam and extremely wary now of WW 1984, since Steve Trevor could make a comeback, which would be totally stupid IMHO and destroy one of the best thing of the original, the sacrifice at the end to truly cement that no victory can be achieved without paying a price. But we'll see I guess.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Haha, I sort of gave up after JL. WB doesn't know how to handle their movies, at least not DC ones anyways.
> 
> I have hopes for Wan's Aquaman, and that's about it. And maybe WW2 (tbh, I didn't like WW very much, it was okay). At this point, I think they should focus on Vertigo/other titles than superhero ones (or maybe do one-off series..like Question and such). I don't necessarily see anything new in all these superhero movies.
> 
> Here's hoping that the merger results in better leadership in WB.


I hear ya yeah ever since JL I've also been less invested in the DCEU only real care being Aquaman and WW sequel.

----------


## Serpico Jones

WB should just take the cast from their tv shows and make movies with them. They already have a great young Bruce Wayne/Batman with Gotham. They already have a beloved Flash on the CW.

----------


## Frontier

> So I take it Patty just confirmed Wonder Woman 84 is the official title?


I really don't care for that title  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Interesting. The theme that hes her ghost that somewhat haunts her conscience or feelings on humanity is an inteuiging theme imo.


I think if he were a ghost he would probably still be wearing the exact same outfit he was wearing the last time Diana saw him.

----------


## Vakanai

> So the Joker origin movie seems to be getting fast tracked. I dont think it makes sense to have a 45 year old actor in Juaquin Phoenix playing a young Joker. And I also hate the idea of giving the Joker an official origin story. Maybe this is why Geoff Johns is writing his 3 Jokers series. To cover up the fact that Hollywood wants him to have an official origin. The 3 Jokers story will at least allow them to keep some ambiguity. Despite Scorseses involment I still have zero interest in this movie. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/06/13/j...-small-budget/


As I understand it the movie will be a sort of Elseworld, so an older Joker in an origin story in the 70s won't affect him in the other movies...which actually makes me a hundred times more excited for this then I otherwise would be. A more Elseworld non-continuity film series detached from the rest of the DCEU might be good.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> WB should just take the cast from their tv shows and make movies with them. *They already have a great young Bruce Wayne/Batman with Gotham.* They already have a beloved Flash on the CW.


lol. Sorry, but nobody is going to be okay with that movie casting.

----------


## Vakanai

> WB should just take the cast from their tv shows and make movies with them. They already have a great young Bruce Wayne/Batman with Gotham. They already have a beloved Flash on the CW.


I love the Flash series, but no. Keep TV and films separate please. I never understood the TV to movie argument or desire.

----------


## kurenai24

> Warner Bros. Shifts DC Strategy Amid Executive Change-Up: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-moves-1119489

----------


## Arsenal

> I really don't care for that title .
> 
> I think if he were a ghost he would probably still be wearing the exact same outfit he was wearing the last time Diana saw him.


He looks a lot older than he was in WW1 too

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I love the Flash series, but no. Keep TV and films separate please. I never understood the TV to movie argument or desire.


Me either. Before Routh was cast I remember everyone clamoring for Tom Welling to be the movie Superman. I just thought that was so weird.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I mean a different actor for a younger Batman in a prequel movie is fine but I don't want Batfleck to abandon the role and the Quinn/BoP & 2 Jokers film don't make much sense. Flash as Back to the Future could work though.

----------


## Confuzzled

The shake-up news sounds good except for the younger Batman movie taking place alongside the Harley/Birds of Prey, Batgirl and Leto Joker solo films. Not getting the mechanics of that unless Matt Reeves is directing a prequel.

----------


## stephens2177

To many Bat and dark DC properties,and not enough big and bold super hero movies imo

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

http://ew.com/movies/2018/06/14/ew-a...r-jason-momoa/

----------


## Vanguard-01

> http://ew.com/movies/2018/06/14/ew-a...r-jason-momoa/


Daaaaang! They all look kickass, but Amber Heard really IS Mera there!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

MANTA

----------


## Confuzzled

Amazing!!!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Aquaman and Ocean Master:

----------


## Jabare

ugh that Black Manta costume...................ugh why. Who is doing costume design for this movie?



I still say the Government should have let Comcast buy Time Warner that would have righted the ship for the general public.


Anyway fingers crossed on this film. They are still holding this trailer back a good bit which ha see curious because the film comes out in December and we are halfway into June

----------


## Punisher007

Atlanna's outfit looks, different than I was expecting. I didn't think that there'd be so much white in it. Still looks cool though.

Also Orm's armor looks cool from what I can see of it here. 

Also EW really needs to work on their covers, the actors all look so obviously photoshopped.  And they're posed in such awkward ways (Mera looks like she's posing like a runway model for example).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> ugh that Black Manta costume...................ugh why. Who is doing costume design for this movie?
> 
> 
> 
> I still say the Government should have let Comcast buy Time Warner that would have righted the ship for the general public.
> 
> 
> Anyway fingers crossed on this film. They are still holding this trailer back a good bit which ha see curious because the film comes out in December and we are halfway into June


You realize it's entirely possible that the costume isn't finished in that image, right? That looks almost like he's running some tests on it or something.

----------


## Jabare

> You realize it's entirely possible that the costume isn't finished in that image, right? That looks almost like he's running some tests on it or something.


I hope you’re right

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Tomorrow is when the trailer is supposed to drop right? I usually avoid trailers but might have to make an exception.

----------


## Confuzzled

The other photos (first one has back shot of Vulko):

----------


## Confuzzled



----------


## Slim Shady

The word is the full Manta costume on screen is bad ass.

----------


## Bossace

So at first glance I honestly thought Nicole Kidman was wearing earmuffs

----------


## Vanguard-01

Some information about the trailer, supposedly from Wan himself. The big takeaway? Looks like the movie will use the Seven Seas concept for Atlantis: seven undersea kingdoms instead of just Atlantis.

----------


## Slim Shady

I had no idea Dolph Lundgren was in Aquaman. Love that guy  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vakanai

> MANTA


Hope that is an early or prototype helmet, doesn't feel manga enough.

----------


## Triple J

> Some information about the trailer, supposedly from Wan himself. The big takeaway? Looks like the movie will use the Seven Seas concept for Atlantis: seven undersea kingdoms instead of just Atlantis.


Oh, nice. So Unite the Seven, eh?

I think many of us did predict (or imagine) that the first poster had something to do with the seven kingdoms (especially since that was back then the concept was introduced iirc...with Pacifica etc).

----------


## Robotman

> Some information about the trailer, supposedly from Wan himself. The big takeaway? Looks like the movie will use the Seven Seas concept for Atlantis: seven undersea kingdoms instead of just Atlantis.


Truthfully I haven’t been very excited about this movie. But hearing about all the potentially awesome stuff Wan has in store, I gotta say I’m starting to get hyped. 

We haven’t gotten the Seven Seas storyline in the comics but we may get it in the film.  Can’t wait!

----------


## Raijin

I wish Garth was in this. Ludi Lin looks up to part.

----------


## Frontier

> I wish Garth was in this. Ludi Lin looks up to part.


I still don't get why they cast him as Murk when he just _screams_ "Aqualad."

----------


## Confuzzled

> I still don't get why they cast him as Murk when he just _screams_ "Aqualad."


*cough* Geoff Johns creation *cough*

----------


## Frontier

> *cough* Geoff Johns creation *cough*


Maybe. Although I think if that was the case they probably would have tried to match the actual character in the comics more (shrug).

----------


## ross61

I wouldn’t be surprised or disappointed if Garth never gets adapted

----------


## jertz666

> They already had sets built schedules lined up for crew and actors everything was in place they thought BvS was going to be a massive hit and it did well just not what they wanted and it would cost to much to stop the production. Now the real issue was why not after doing reshoots release it later and allow more time to fine tune the finale film and that rumor is that executives wouldn't get as much at their year end bonuses without Justice League being released in 2017 and some of these people might not around if the merger goes through and wanted the biggest bonuses they could get according to gossip.



Postponing a massive undertaking such as this is not like postponing a dinner date.  For one thing, there are massive talents involved and many have commitments planned out months even years in advance.  You can't just tell the editor , "Um...we don't have the footage yet.   Can you come back six months from now?"   He or she might well be working on another movie by then.   That's what happened to Henry Cavill, hence the infamous CGI mouth.

Then there are the product placement tie-ins and promotional partnership that most blockbusters engage in.   Mercedes Benz, for example, is a major sponsor of Justice League.  They are not going to be happy if the movie is going to be delayed by a year or so.

How about those toys and other merchandises that are tied to the movie?   Toy makers and retailers  expect the movie to drive interest in the merchandise.  If the movie isn't in theaters by Christmas while the toys are in shelves,  the Mattels and the Walmarts of the world are going to be very pissed.   Interestingly enough, revenue from these toys can exceed a film's box office gross.

Look, it's very easy for armchair executives like us to shout "Postpone the movie !"  but we are not privy to all the agreements and contractual obligations that the studios have with various parties.  One article I read on the Justice League situation likened the whole operation to an ocean liner.   Once it starts moving, it can't just stop or swerve 90 degrees on a dime.  It can only make small adjustments from its pre-planned course.   If BvS had been a total disaster, it might have made sense to call the whole thing off and go back to the drawing board but that wasn't the case.   That film did well enough.

i'd say WB's mistakes were 1)  giving Zack Snyder the keys to the kingdom and 2) scheduling JL so soon after BvS giving them little wiggle room if things turn south.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Maybe. Although I think if that was the case they probably would have tried to match the actual character in the comics more (shrug).


Johns seems to be content with diverse casting as long as his fave or own created characters and storylines are being adapted.

----------


## ross61

Johns is okay with any casting.

----------


## Frontier

> I wouldnt be surprised or disappointed if Garth never gets adapted


I'd be disappointed at least  :Frown: .

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Atlanteans riding sea horses into battle against Atlanteans riding on sharks (and is that a liopleurodon?)!

Wan's going all in.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Atlanteans riding sea horses into battle against Atlanteans riding on sharks (and is that a liopleurodon?)!
> 
> Wan's going all in.


Damn, that looks GOOD!

----------


## Frontier

> Atlanteans riding sea horses into battle against Atlanteans riding on sharks (and is that a liopleurodon?)!
> 
> Wan's going all in.


Sea horses vs. sharks. It sounds like a bad Syfy movie, but I love it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Full Aquaman EW article: https://twitter.com/Steele131/status...79165011292160

----------


## Triple J

Image from the article mentioned by the tweet above ^^

----------


## Raijin

> I wouldnt be surprised or disappointed if Garth never gets adapted


It's not looking like Donna will be involved with the WW movies either. Sad.

----------


## Vakanai

> Damn, that looks GOOD!


No it doesn't. I mean it looks promising, but that shot needs some more post production CGI work or whatever. But I approve of all the ideas on this picture. Go giant seahorses!

----------


## Vakanai

> It's not looking like Donna will be involved with the WW movies either. Sad.


I wouldn't want her showing up till the Wonder Woman solo films reach the present day anyway, but that's just my opinion. Also give Aquaman a solo or two before introducing Aqualad.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/creepypuppet/sta...29495355211776

Wan confirms the trailer will be debuting at Comic-Con.

(looks like they might be planning to attach the trailer to Mission Impossible, since the dates line up)

(on a side note, anyone else tired of seeing a MI: Fallout trailer every time they go to a movie? This year I swear it's the one trailer that always plays no matter what film it is :P)

----------


## Vanguard-01

> https://twitter.com/creepypuppet/sta...29495355211776
> 
> Wan confirms the trailer will be debuting at Comic-Con.


So we have to wait a whole extra MONTH?  :Frown:

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Thought they were gonna attach the trailer to Jurassic World. Oh well I can wait till comic-con.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It's not looking like Donna will be involved with the WW movies either. Sad.


I would kind of like her to show up, but at the same time the films already have enough on their plate in adapting more prominent pieces of WW lore that need to be adapted well. 

I kind of can't blame them for avoiding Donna and her checkered history like the plague.

----------


## Confuzzled

Donna may appear in a Teen Titans movie if it ever materializes, especially if the upcoming streaming service show and their take on her prove to be popular.

Garth... not so much.

----------


## Frontier

I think the status of the sidekicks is going to depend a lot on the way the DCEU progresses and what the directors want to do in subsequent movies. 

Although I really can't see this version of Barry Allen with a Kid Flash unless he was, like, a toddler  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Amazon Swordsman

In using Donna, I hope they just use the simplest, most accessible origin from the several she has.

----------


## ross61

> I think the status of the sidekicks is going to depend a lot on the way the DCEU progresses and what the directors want to do in subsequent movies. 
> 
> Although I really can't see this version of Barry Allen with a Kid Flash unless he was, like, a toddler .


Depending on how the universe is set up for Barry and Iris history, I can picture Wally being atleast a pre-teen.

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Confuzzled

Gorgeous as always. The aesthetics of this film seem spectacular.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I become increasingly confident that it's physically impossible to take a bad picture of Gal Gadot! :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> 


As stunning as ever  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Styles

> 


Man, she's a dime piece. Can't wait to see more pics.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

She is gorgeous, but damn, she skinny.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Todd Phillip’s ‘Joker’ Origin Film Expected To Begin Shooting In NYC This September: https://omegaunderground.com/2018/06...his-september/

Jason Momoa Reveals Which Line He Tried to Cut from Justice League: https://movieweb.com/jason-momoa-justice-league-line/

----------


## Aioros22

Seems my hopes are being fairlymet. Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman looking like the crown jewels of this DCEU line. 

The aesthetics on both seem on point and the actors are truly commited and allowed to actually fully work without being outshined. like Gal in the JL movie playing wondersitter.Plus, sea horses battalion versus shark army. C`mon now, how could you not want to see it??

----------


## Punisher007

The colors really pop in that image, gorgeous. I'm hoping that we'll get some idea of what Cheetah will look like next.

Also that's the Whiskey Bar at the Watergate Hotel I believe.

----------


## Vanguard-01

How soon we get a look at Cheetah will probably depend on the nature of the look. If it's an all-CGI deal, then it could be a while until it's rendered well enough. If it's practical effects, it's a simple matter of getting Kristen Wiig into costume and snapping a couple pictures of her. Even if it's CGI, I suppose there could be concept art to show us.

Here's hoping we see something at ComiCon.

----------


## nightw1ng

I'm hoping that WW picture of Gal is showing off how the colors will be in the new movie.  One of my gripes with the past DCEU films is the excessive use of filters and color desaturation.  With Snyder's influence now mostly gone, it'd be nice to see more vibrant colors and natural lighting.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I become increasingly confident that it's physically impossible to take a bad picture of Gal Gadot!


I have been saying that forever and I still stand by it, by cracky!  :Smile:

----------


## Punisher007

I'd settle for some concept art of Cheetah's look honestly.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> How soon we get a look at Cheetah will probably depend on the nature of the look. If it's an all-CGI deal, then it could be a while until it's rendered well enough. If it's practical effects, it's a simple matter of getting Kristen Wiig into costume and snapping a couple pictures of her. Even if it's CGI, I suppose there could be concept art to show us.
> 
> Here's hoping we see something at ComiCon.


It would surprise me a lot if Kristen Wiig runs around in a literal cheetah costume in the movie, she'll probably be human for large parts of the movie and turn into a CGI thing for key scenes, Hulk-style.

----------


## Charmed

I can't stop looking at her hair in that picture. The colors of the suit are amazing, too.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd settle for some concept art of Cheetah's look honestly.


Well, we know there is concept art of Wiig as Cheetah floating around, but much like the _Aquaman_ concept art I'm not sure if we'll get to see any of it.

----------


## Vinsanity

> It would surprise me a lot if Kristen Wiig runs around in a literal cheetah costume in the movie, she'll probably be human for large parts of the movie and turn into a CGI thing for key scenes, Hulk-style.


Please be the 1st just so it would be the most 80's thing ever.

----------


## Carabas

Isn't that more a 40's thing?

----------


## Black_Adam

Been thinking about all the upcoming movies with The Joker, so we have:

Non-DCEU Joker film (Joaquin Phoenix)
Suicide Squad 2 (Leto)
Birds of Prey/Sirens (Leto)
Harley and Joker (Leto)
DCEU Joker film (Leto)

Now probably at least 2 or 3 of these movies don't see the light of day but it is crazy to think we may get more Joker films than Superman ones! 

Not only that but WB are primarily investing in a version of the character (Leto), who while I personally liked, many people did not and the jury is certainly still out on whether Leto can deliver in the role.

----------


## stephens2177

> Been thinking about all the upcoming movies with The Joker, so we have:
> 
> Non-DCEU Joker film (Joaquin Phoenix)
> Suicide Squad 2 (Leto)
> Birds of Prey/Sirens (Leto)
> Harley and Joker (Leto)
> DCEU Joker film (Leto)
> 
> Now probably at least 2 or 3 of these movies don't see the light of day but it is crazy to think we may get more Joker films than Superman ones! 
> ...


It's called ignorance

----------


## batnbreakfast

I wasn't aware of Leto being in SS 2 and BoP/Sirens. I consider it all rumours until there are pics in an actual magazine. Would be nice to have Manta and Black Adam in Suicide Squad. Hope they keep Viola Davis around and give her better material.

----------


## Vakanai

> Been thinking about all the upcoming movies with The Joker, so we have:
> 
> Non-DCEU Joker film (Joaquin Phoenix)


Only one I'm interested in.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

So I saw this tidbit yesterday on CBR and wanted to get everyone's take on it:
_It’s Time for Warner Bros. to Release Snyder’s Justice League Cut_

In the piece, the author links to another article that seems to solidify that there is, in fact, an assembled Snyder Cut of _Justice League_. It most assuredly doesn't have final music, VFX and the like, but the edit is there. 

As a guy who grew to enjoy _Man of Steel_ and _Batman v Superman_ (Ultimate Cut) and loved _Justice League_ right off the bat, I think WB should release the Snyder Cut, with or without final VFX. Heck, WB and SNyder could probably put out a call for VFX studios, and some would probably offer to finish the project for free.

There's not really a downside for WB, aside from expenditures relating to manufacturing and (maybe) post-production work. Publicity-wise, it's a win-win: WB can say they're listening to the fans, and, should the Snyder Cut stink out loud, they can be vindicated in making the amount of changes they did.

I'm not saying the Snyder Cut would be great. Heck, it may not even be good, but I think it should be out there, if only to serve as a basis of comparison to the theatrical cut. From what I've heard, a mix of the two cuts sounds like it would make the perfect film.

I know it's not terribly likely to happen, but I still think it's worth bringing up!

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Only one I'm interested in.


That's one more than I'm interested in.

I want Green Lantern and Superman (in that order). We're getting more Wonder Woman, so I don't have to ask for that.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> So I saw this tidbit yesterday on CBR and wanted to get everyone's take on it:
> _It’s Time for Warner Bros. to Release Snyder’s Justice League Cut_
> 
> In the piece, the author links to another article that seems to solidify that there is, in fact, an assembled Snyder Cut of _Justice League_. It most assuredly doesn't have final music, VFX and the like, but the edit is there. 
> 
> As a guy who grew to enjoy _Man of Steel_ and _Batman v Superman_ (Ultimate Cut) and loved _Justice League_ right off the bat, I think WB should release the Snyder Cut, with or without final VFX. Heck, WB and SNyder could probably put out a call for VFX studios, and some would probably offer to finish the project for free.
> 
> There's not really a downside for WB, aside from expenditures relating to manufacturing and (maybe) post-production work. Publicity-wise, it's a win-win: WB can say they're listening to the fans, and, should the Snyder Cut stink out loud, they can be vindicated in making the amount of changes they did.
> 
> ...


Clay Enos confirmed on twitter that "99% of Zack's JL got shot", and that there may have been a couple pickups/reshot scenes to do as well as "finishing VFX" (quite a few were completed already), but 99% of what Snyder wanted was shot & in the can. So there IS a Snyder Cut, insofar as an edit that has a clear beginning, middle, and end with only some VFX needing completed and music composed. 

However, having said that, I don't believe you can sell an unfinished film like that. I mean, yeah, you technically can of course, but you risk damaging your brand even further to sell John Q Fan a movie for $20, when he doesn't know it's unfinished, and he gets to see a wireframe Cyborg learning to fly (for example) or Ray in his pajamas for half the movie. So a straight "Snyder Cut" is out, in my opinion, because WB isn't going to punp more money into a film that barely broke even. But! There is hope...and I think we look to other film sets for the answer. WB could release a set, and for arguments sake let's call it "DC Universe: Chapter One", and put the 5 films in it (MoS, BvS UE, SS, WW, JL). Then, as a bonus feature, give us "Justice League: Alternate Cut", complete with a message at the front stating that the cut is unfinished. Alien Quadrilogy did this back when it hit DVD the first time; it had an alternate cut of Alien 3 (not labeled Directors Cut) that contained unfinished effects and non-ADR'd audio that required subtitles. 

To sweeten the deal, toss in some deleted scenes and animatics from MoS, some deleted material from SS, and viola. Later, you re-release each film individually with the new bonus material. From a marketing standpoint, I think this is how everyone wins. Those of us who enjoy Snyder's work get to finally see his version, and those who don't enjoy his work can freely skip it because it wouldn't be canon to the DCEU going forward anyway.

----------


## Jokerz79

> So I saw this tidbit yesterday on CBR and wanted to get everyone's take on it:
> _It’s Time for Warner Bros. to Release Snyder’s Justice League Cut_
> 
> In the piece, the author links to another article that seems to solidify that there is, in fact, an assembled Snyder Cut of _Justice League_. It most assuredly doesn't have final music, VFX and the like, but the edit is there. 
> 
> As a guy who grew to enjoy _Man of Steel_ and _Batman v Superman_ (Ultimate Cut) and loved _Justice League_ right off the bat, I think WB should release the Snyder Cut, with or without final VFX. Heck, WB and SNyder could probably put out a call for VFX studios, and some would probably offer to finish the project for free.
> 
> There's not really a downside for WB, aside from expenditures relating to manufacturing and (maybe) post-production work. Publicity-wise, it's a win-win: WB can say they're listening to the fans, and, should the Snyder Cut stink out loud, they can be vindicated in making the amount of changes they did.
> 
> ...


Watch the special features for Man of Steel, BvS, Watchmen, Suckerpunch, 300, outside of Dawn of the Dead remake Snyder's scenes are heavy in CGI even stuff like the outside of the Capital building and the Funeral walk in Metropolis and Metropolis from BvS was mostly CGI. The film is shot but needs millions of dollars in editing and CGI to be done and even if everyone who signed the Snyder cut petition a while back bought a copy it still wouldn't cover the cost of the Snyder Cut. There is really no upside for WB to do it especially with them wanting to move on and take the DCEU in a new direction.

----------


## Vakanai

> That's one more than I'm interested in.
> 
> I want Green Lantern and Superman (in that order). We're getting more Wonder Woman, so I don't have to ask for that.


Eh, I've never really cared much one way or the other about Green Lantern, but I know we will get a Green Lantern Corps film at some point, an Aquaman, a Flash, another Wonder Woman, and a Superman sequel is bound to happen. But the DCEU needs to build back good will, until then an unrelated Elseworld type story feels like it has more promise than any continuity GL or Supes film. But that's only me really, I'll probably see everything they make.

----------


## Black_Adam

Ugh watching the Death of Superman part 1 (animated) just made me mad how bad they botched this storyline in BvS. Is it too late for a do-over? lol.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Eh, I've never really cared much one way or the other about Green Lantern, but I know we will get a Green Lantern Corps film at some point, an Aquaman, a Flash, another Wonder Woman, and a Superman sequel is bound to happen. But the DCEU needs to build back good will, until then an unrelated Elseworld type story feels like it has more promise than any continuity GL or Supes film. But that's only me really, I'll probably see everything they make.


I agree that they need to earn the audience's good will, but I'm just so burned out on almost everything Batman at this point. The only Bat-film I want is a Batfleck solo, and that's looking less and less likely by the day.

But hey, if a Joker origin solo can get WB/DC back in the audience's good graces, then more power to it.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Ugh watching the Death of Superman part 1 (animated) just made me mad how bad they botched this storyline in BvS. Is it too late for a do-over? lol.


I'd have been perfectly ok with how they did it in BvS if they hadn't called the monster Doomsday. If they'd called it a Bizzaro Zod (Bizzodro?), then I'd have been fine with it. But that wasn't Doomsday.

Heck, Snyder recently came out on Vero and said the "real" Doomsday was still out there. Revisionist storytelling? Yeah, but at least he seems to be (somewhat) owning up to that mistake.

Lastly, is the animated version good? Sounds like it, but I haven;t watched one of the original animated films since _War_.

----------


## Agent Z

> I'd have been perfectly ok with how they did it in BvS if they hadn't called the monster Doomsday. If they'd called it a Bizzaro Zod (Bizzodro?), then I'd have been fine with it. But that wasn't Doomsday.
> 
> Heck, Snyder recently came out on Vero and said the "real" Doomsday was still out there. Revisionist storytelling? Yeah, but at least he seems to be (somewhat) owning up to that mistake.
> 
> Lastly, is the animated version good? Sounds like it, but I haven;t watched one of the original animated films since _War_.


There was a Doomsday in the tie in comics that were made before BvS came out. I don't know if it's revisionist history.

----------


## stephens2177

> Ugh watching the Death of Superman part 1 (animated) just made me mad how bad they botched this storyline in BvS. Is it too late for a do-over? lol.



Yeah they really got this version right,it really works as a updated version of the story,and in their DCA new 52 type universe.

I'm some minds it might be to late,but to me you can course correct from movie to movie,aslong as it's enjoyable and is better than the one before.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd have been perfectly ok with how they did it in BvS if they hadn't called the monster Doomsday. If they'd called it a Bizzaro Zod (Bizzodro?), then I'd have been fine with it. But that wasn't Doomsday.
> 
> Heck, Snyder recently came out on Vero and said the "real" Doomsday was still out there. Revisionist storytelling? Yeah, but at least he seems to be (somewhat) owning up to that mistake.
> 
> Lastly, is the animated version good? Sounds like it, but I haven;t watched one of the original animated films since _War_.


I don't really see the point of there being a "real" Doomsday when they've already done the Death of Superman and had Lex do the name-drop.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I don't really see the point of there being a "real" Doomsday when they've already done the Death of Superman and had Lex do the name-drop.


Rumors have it that Snyder was going to turn his evil Superman into doomsday as the last barrier for the JL before bringing him back to normal. Horrible idea.

----------


## gbshabo

> Ugh watching the Death of Superman part 1 (animated) just made me mad how bad they botched this storyline in BvS. Is it too late for a do-over? lol.


I thought this wasn't out until late July. How did you watch it?

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Rumors have it that Snyder was going to turn his evil Superman into doomsday as the last barrier for the JL before bringing him back to normal. Horrible idea.


I have literally never heard this rumor (and don't believe it). Do you have a source for it? 





> I thought this wasn't out until late July. How did you watch it?


The full movie leaked online a couple nights ago.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Rumors have it that Snyder was going to turn his evil Superman into doomsday as the last barrier for the JL before bringing him back to normal. Horrible idea.


This makes zero sense as in Zack's version Steppenwolf reportedly survived an encounter with Doomsday?

----------


## Styles

Gal Gadot and ‘Wonder Woman 1984’ Planned As Warner’s Big Comic-Con Surprise

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Ugh watching the Death of Superman part 1 (animated) just made me mad how bad they botched this storyline in BvS. Is it too late for a do-over? lol.


They botched more things in the DC lore than anything else I've ever witnessed so I'm not surprised if this new movie got it right. After this animated movie we are probably no going to see DoS anytime soon. Anyway can't wait to watch it since I'm hearing good things about it.

----------


## Random killer x

I think one of the main turn offs people have for the DCEU is the amount of rumors going on, no one knows what the hell is going on and apparently neither does WB. They are literally throwing eggs on the wall and see which sticks. Its unbelievable really, I think they can build another dc universe just called DC rumors from the amount of crap being thrown around. 

Is Ben Affleck still in or no? Is the new Batman film part of the universe, and will Batffleck still be in it or will there be two Batman actors in two separate universes? What the hell is up with this other Joker movie and why am I hearing Tom Huddleston aka Loki is being considered for the Riddler? My head is about to explode

----------


## RepHope

> I don't really see the point of there being a "real" Doomsday when they've already done the Death of Superman and had Lex do the name-drop.


This right here is my main problem. Who the hell cares that the “real” Doomsday is out there? The hell is he going to do, kill Superman again? It’s completely meaningless, because Doomsday _only has one good story_. He has no other purpose.

----------


## Korath

> This right here is my main problem. Who the hell cares that the “real” Doomsday is out there? The hell is he going to do, kill Superman again? It’s completely meaningless, because Doomsday _only has one good story_. He has no other purpose.


They could also loosely adapt Doomed, with a real Doomsday. It is a good story with him, after all.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> This right here is my main problem. Who the hell cares that the “real” Doomsday is out there? The hell is he going to do, kill Superman again? It’s completely meaningless, because Doomsday _only has one good story_. He has no other purpose.


I agree with this. The only time I can see him resurfacing is as a cool plot-point that invokes an immediate sense of fear, either during a big hero vs. villain team battle or Kandor storyline, but which also reinforces that Superman isn't alone and can overcome monsters like Doomsday with the right help (either the Justice League or a bunch of newly powered, if overzealous, Kryptonians)

----------


## Frontier

> I agree with this. The only time I can see him resurfacing is as a cool plot-point that invokes an immediate sense of fear, either during a big hero vs. villain team battle or Kandor storyline, but which also reinforces that Superman isn't alone and can overcome monsters like Doomsday with the right help (either the Justice League or a bunch of newly powered, if overzealous, Kryptonians)


Yeah, the only point I can see to Doomsday now is as a big physical threat that requires the entire Justice League to beat (which would be a good way to make up for the Steppenwolf fight). 

Which would be a nice contrast from the Doomsday fight in _Death of Superman_  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## gbshabo

just saw that Aquaman is opening on the same weekend as Bumblebee. Doesn't that seem like a terrible idea?

----------


## Jokerz79

> just saw that Aquaman is opening on the same weekend as Bumblebee. Doesn't that seem like a terrible idea?


Also Alita: Battle Angel and Holmes and Watson starring Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly so it's a packed weekend. Also Mortal Engines and Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse open the weekend before and Mary Poppins the weekend after so it's a packed season which even being amazing it could have struggling issues due to all the films competing with it.

----------


## Robotman

> Also Alita: Battle Angel and Holmes and Watson starring Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly so it's a packed weekend. Also Mortal Engines and Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse open the weekend before and Mary Poppins the weekend after so it's a packed season which even being amazing it could have struggling issues due to all the films competing with it.


So there’s a really good chance tha Aquaman isn’t going to do great at the box office even if it’s loved by critics and fans. I wonder how WB will react if it ends up losing money. They have such knee jerk reactions to these movies.

----------


## Jokerz79

> So there’s a really good chance tha Aquaman isn’t going to do great at the box office even if it’s loved by critics and fans. I wonder how WB will react if it ends up losing money. They have such knee jerk reactions to these movies.


JMO even if great which so far all imagery looks good it's going to be a photo finish who wins that weekend box office Aquaman or Bumblebee but with Alita: Battle Angel, Holmes and Watson, Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse, and Mortal Engines all in theaters too it's going to be a struggle for Aquaman or Bumblebee to pull in really high numbers even with winning the number one spot and Mary Poppins will take the number one spot the following weekend and rarely does a film ever get back to the number one spot after losing it so IMO it would be smarter to had released Aquaman in January I know January gets a bad rep but if I was WB I wouldn't care since the potential for profit is higher Hellboy comes out January 11 so I'd release Aquaman January 18th take the number one spot from Hellboy and there are no franchise major releases till February 8th with Lego Movie 2.

----------


## Jabare

> just saw that Aquaman is opening on the same weekend as Bumblebee. Doesn't that seem like a terrible idea?


probably not for the U.S. box office, but internationally.........yes

I don't know why people rush to see transformers movies you might get some cool CGI fights but at this point the story is so blah and the human characters are only good for comic relief if that

----------


## Arsenal

> probably not for the U.S. box office, but internationally.........yes
> 
> I don't know why people rush to see transformers movies you might get some cool CGI fights but at this point the story is so blah and the human characters are only good for comic relief if that


Not sure why people still see the Transformers movies, but im pretty sure it's not for the stories or characters

----------


## Gaastra

Well this one was made by the guy who did kubo and the two strings and that was a good movie so there's hope but no bay this time around.

----------


## Colossus1980

> JMO even if great which so far all imagery looks good it's going to be a photo finish who wins that weekend box office Aquaman or Bumblebee but with Alita: Battle Angel, Holmes and Watson, Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse, and Mortal Engines all in theaters too it's going to be a struggle for Aquaman or Bumblebee to pull in really high numbers even with winning the number one spot and Mary Poppins will take the number one spot the following weekend and rarely does a film ever get back to the number one spot after losing it so IMO it would be smarter to had released Aquaman in January I know January gets a bad rep but if I was WB I wouldn't care since the potential for profit is higher Hellboy comes out January 11 so I'd release Aquaman January 18th take the number one spot from Hellboy and there are no franchise major releases till February 8th with Lego Movie 2.


I wonder if any of those movies you listed will clear 300M domestic.  Lots of competition but is there any movie that will dominate the Christmas box office?  The last three had Star Wars but it seems so uninspired this year.  Who will be top dog in the winter?  And will it be impressive or so-so?

----------


## Jabare

> Well this one was made by the guy who did kubo and the two strings and that was a good movie so there's hope but no bay this time around.


Damage is done. I liked the first film. The second had its moments I try to cut it some slack because of the writer strike but they should have cut the insensitive robot twins. 3 was okay I guess for Michael Bay standards but no Megan Fox was weird story wise. After that it’s just randomness. The brands to synonymous with Michael Bay I and the crappy films. Even if Christopher Nolan or Lucas or Ryan Coogler directed I wouldn’t go see it. We’ve literally had 6 or 7 of these films with the same basic premis.

----------


## Frontier

After the last TF film under-performed I think it will take a lot of good promotion and word of mouth to guarantee _Bumblebee_ as a success.

But it's also not the only movie _Aquaman_ will be competing against.

----------


## Robotman

> JMO even if great which so far all imagery looks good it's going to be a photo finish who wins that weekend box office Aquaman or Bumblebee but with Alita: Battle Angel, Holmes and Watson, Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse, and Mortal Engines all in theaters too it's going to be a struggle for Aquaman or Bumblebee to pull in really high numbers even with winning the number one spot and Mary Poppins will take the number one spot the following weekend and rarely does a film ever get back to the number one spot after losing it so IMO it would be smarter to had released Aquaman in January I know January gets a bad rep but if I was WB I wouldn't care since the potential for profit is higher Hellboy comes out January 11 so I'd release Aquaman January 18th take the number one spot from Hellboy and there are no franchise major releases till February 8th with Lego Movie 2.


WB won’t move Aquaman to 2019 for the same reason they didn’t push back Justice League. The box office will increase their total for the year and allow them to either get a raise or justify their current position.
The box office from winter 2017 put WB over the $5 billion mark in world wide gross. Justice League underperformed but it still helped them reach the milestone. Which I’m sure made the execs very happy.

----------


## Vakanai

> WB won’t move Aquaman to 2019 for the same reason they didn’t push back Justice League. The box office will increase their total for the year and allow them to either get a raise or justify their current position.
> The box office from winter 2017 put WB over the $5 billion mark in world wide gross. Justice League underperformed but it still helped them reach the milestone. Which I’m sure made the execs very happy.


So getting a higher box office for the year is better than making more money in the slightly longer run?
Wow Hollywood is messed up.

----------


## Jokerz79

> WB wont move Aquaman to 2019 for the same reason they didnt push back Justice League. The box office will increase their total for the year and allow them to either get a raise or justify their current position.
> The box office from winter 2017 put WB over the $5 billion mark in world wide gross. Justice League underperformed but it still helped them reach the milestone. Which Im sure made the execs very happy.


Sadly yes the executives will put bonuses before what's good for the franchise I have some respect for Fox with delaying New Mutants and Dark Phoenix to fix whatever issues they had.

----------


## Raijin

> So theres a really good chance tha Aquaman isnt going to do great at the box office even if its loved by critics and fans. I wonder how WB will react if it ends up losing money. They have such knee jerk reactions to these movies.


If it wasn't for the fans and haters alike, there wouldn't be any knee-jerk reactions. They created that.

----------


## Confuzzled

Er, where do people suggest "pushing back" Aquaman to if not keep its December date? January is awards season month and December movies grow their legs in that month. February has Dark Phoenix right in the middle, with Captain Marvel arriving in the first week of March. And anyways those dates are too close to Shazam.

Aquaman's current date is fine. Mary Poppins Returns and possibly Spider-Verse are its only competitors that I see becoming hits. Alita, Bumblebee, Mortal Engines and that Holmes film seem like bombs or too small.




> probably not for the U.S. box office, but internationally.........yes


The last Transformers movie fell 50% from the previous film in the franchise internationally too.

----------


## kjn

> So theres a really good chance tha Aquaman isnt going to do great at the box office even if its loved by critics and fans. I wonder how WB will react if it ends up losing money. They have such knee jerk reactions to these movies.


I'm not sure they have knee jerk reactions as much as delayed and confused reactions. After all, their reaction to the poor reception of _Suicide Squad_ seems to be to triple down on Joker movies.




> Er, where do people suggest "pushing back" Aquaman to if not keep its December date? January is awards season month and December movies grow their legs in that month. February has Dark Phoenix right in the middle, with Captain Marvel arriving in the first week of March. And anyways those dates are too close to Shazam.


Um right here? Or that its UK release date moved up?

The thing isn't even so much on how the other movies will do, but that there are lots of movies releasing at the same time, which will push down income for all of them, and also make it tricky for theatres, especially smaller ones. Most of these movies also get the bulk part of their ticket revenue during the first two weeks of its release. Even a movie with as long legs as _Wonder Woman_ received well over half of its revenue during its first two weeks.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Er, where do people suggest "pushing back" Aquaman to if not keep its December date? January is awards season month and December movies grow their legs in that month. February has Dark Phoenix right in the middle, with Captain Marvel arriving in the first week of March. And anyways those dates are too close to Shazam.
> 
> Aquaman's current date is fine. Mary Poppins Returns and possibly Spider-Verse are its only competitors that I see becoming hits. Alita, Bumblebee, Mortal Engines and that Holmes film seem like bombs or too small.
> 
> 
> 
> The last Transformers movie fell 50% from the previous film in the franchise internationally too.


Most of the general audience don't see most awards films in theaters and Bumblebee is getting good buzz since the trailer dropped and people realize Bay isn't directing it.

Now January is famously known as garbage month for big budget of franchise films because the studios like to dump the trash franchise films they've lost faith in so there is a negative view to being released in January but IMO if released the week after Hellboy Aquaman could clean house good.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Um… right here? Or that its UK release date moved up?
> 
> The thing isn't even so much on how the other movies will do, but that there are lots of movies releasing at the same time, which will push down income for all of them, and also make it tricky for theatres, especially smaller ones. Most of these movies also get the bulk part of their ticket revenue during the first two weeks of its release. Even a movie with as long legs as _Wonder Woman_ received well over half of its revenue during its first two weeks.


Right where again?  :Confused:  And lol, it moved up all of _one_ week in the UK. 

The holiday season is fine. It affords more movies to break out as it is all holidays, and they manage to make more money as they play throughout January as well.




> Most of the general audience don't see most awards films in theaters and Bumblebee is getting good buzz since the trailer dropped and people realize Bay isn't directing it.
> 
> Now January is famously known as garbage month for big budget of franchise films because the studios like to dump the trash franchise films they've lost faith in so there is a negative view to being released in January but IMO if released the week after Hellboy Aquaman could clean house good.


Awards season films still take away audiences, adults in particular. Sometimes some of them even break out like The Revenant, Hidden Figures and The Greatest Showman, becoming legit competition to blockbusters. The weather in January is also notorious, which is why it has gained the reputation of "dump month" for movies the studios know are inferior in quality.

December is fine as the holidays allow more movies to make money and then those same films have the entirety of January to make the leftover money. Sandwiching Aquaman between Hellboy and Dark Phoenix is taking away those holidays for no guaranteed benefit, and it forces three superhero movies to be very close to each other (four if you count Captain Marvel too).

And the Transformers franchise is at a worse place than the DCEU as the last Transformers film made even less than Justice League. Bumblebee has even more odds stacked against it than Aquaman, and it is the movie that will suffer worse during the showdown. I don't think there are many people who are that into Transformers but hate Bay.

----------


## jertz666

> Right where again?  And lol, it moved up all of _one_ week in the UK. 
> And the Transformers franchise is at a worse place than the DCEU as the last Transformers film made even less than Justice League. Bumblebee has even more odds stacked against it than Aquaman, and it is the movie that will suffer worse during the showdown. I don't think there are many people who are that into Transformers but hate Bay.


If you asked me a month ago, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly.  But that  Bumblebee trailer is getting a lot of people excited for the movie.  It  promised a different kind of Transformers film,   one that's smaller and more personal.  I was reading comments on a YouTube video about the crowded slate for November and December and  majority of the commenters think Bumblebee will pretty much drown out Aquaman.

A great Aquaman trailer is needed to counter the Bumblebee buzz.   I'm cautiously optimistic we'll get a great trailer based on the reaction to an incomplete Aquaman teaser at Cinemacon.  Still, trailers for DCEU movies have generally been underwhelming, IMHO.  If I weren't already a DC fan, I wouldn't bother watching the movies.  The lone exception is the MOS trailer which I thought was pretty epic.  

I still think Bumblebee will triumph at the international box office.  Transformers is a better known brand than the DCEU.  2 of the last 3 Transformers movie grossed more than a billion.   A good trailer and maybe a few positive reviews is all it will take to bring back the audience to the franchise.   Meanwhile the highest profile DCEU movie flopped badly and no DCEU movie has ever crossed the billion dollar mark.  Aquaman is going to need spectacular trailers and great reviews to overcome the negative buzz that typically accompany DCEU films.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Clay Enos, set photographer, shares via Twitter and VERO our first look of Kristen Wiig as the woman who will become Cheetah:


Patty Jenkins also tweeted a version of the pic without that VERO border on it.

----------


## Frontier

> Clay Enos, set photographer, shares via Twitter and VERO our first look of Kristen Wiig as the woman who will become Cheetah:
> 
> 
> Patty Jenkins also tweeted a version of the pic without that VERO border on it.


Doesn't look threatening in the slightest...which is probably the point.

----------


## Johnny

Very reminiscent of Michelle Pfeiffer's Selina Kyle. Love it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Doesn't look threatening in the slightest...which is probably the point.


Looks inspired by Rebirth...



...which excites me for how her Cheetah avatar will look.

----------


## Styles

Margot Robbie Confirms New Harley Quinn Costume In DCs Birds Of Prey

----------


## TricksterFox

> I think one of the main turn offs people have for the DCEU is the amount of rumors going on, no one knows what the hell is going on and apparently neither does WB. They are literally throwing eggs on the wall and see which sticks. Its unbelievable really, I think they can build another dc universe just called DC rumors from the amount of crap being thrown around. 
> 
> Is Ben Affleck still in or no? Is the new Batman film part of the universe, and will Batffleck still be in it or will there be two Batman actors in two separate universes? What the hell is up with this other Joker movie and why am I hearing Tom Huddleston aka Loki is being considered for the Riddler? My head is about to explode


If THEY'RE still unsure what's going on and still throwing stuff at the wall at this stage... yeah, they're in big trouble. Not that it wasn't already apparent...

----------


## Pinsir

> just saw that Aquaman is opening on the same weekend as Bumblebee. Doesn't that seem like a terrible idea?


The last Transformers film flopped, partly because it was eviscerated by Wonder Woman

----------


## Pinsir

> I think one of the main turn offs people have for the DCEU is the amount of rumors going on, no one knows what the hell is going on and apparently neither does WB. They are literally throwing eggs on the wall and see which sticks. Its unbelievable really, I think they can build another dc universe just called DC rumors from the amount of crap being thrown around. 
> 
> Is Ben Affleck still in or no? Is the new Batman film part of the universe, and will Batffleck still be in it or will there be two Batman actors in two separate universes? What the hell is up with this other Joker movie and why am I hearing Tom Huddleston aka Loki is being considered for the Riddler? My head is about to explode


Maybe its because news surrounding DCEU films are filthy lies? This was confirmed with Wonder Woman and how the media invented production problems for the film. Anyone who doesn't think that there is a cottage industry devoted to smearing the DCEU is delusional at this point. 

I'm too lazy to change my signature, but I'm honestly amazed how well it still holds up. According to the news media Ben Affleck left the role before JL even debuted! By the way, considering the financial woes Ben Affleck is currently enduring on account of his divorce, its extremely unlikely he'd leave the role now.

----------


## Frontier

> Margot Robbie Confirms New Harley Quinn Costume In DC’s ‘Birds Of Prey’


Wonder if she'll be showing a little less skin this time  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Carabas

> Wonder if she'll be showing a little less skin this time ?


I don't recall her Suicide Squad outfit showing that much skin, especially compared to most comics Harley outfits.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't recall her Suicide Squad outfit showing that much skin, especially compared to most comics Harley outfits.


True, it mostly just showed off her legs.

And there's been so much variety in Harley's look over the years that they can probably go in a whole lot of different directions  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Robotman

I hated how they made her color scheme pink and powder blue. Stick to the black and red.

----------


## Bossace

While I want  to see aquaman and I’m very excited too i wonder if a packed weekend if the perfect excuse if it fails. It is real easy to say  to the press “we brought our A game l, we are proud of the movie we made, but there was just a lot of tough competition going on out there that weekend and that’s the only release window we really had available for this film” then mention how they’re looking forward to seeing how Shazam and WW 1984 perform

----------


## Lightning Rider

> While I want  to see aquaman and I’m very excited too i wonder if a packed weekend if the perfect excuse if it fails. It is real easy to say  to the press “we brought our A game l, we are proud of the movie we made, but there was just a lot of tough competition going on out there that weekend and that’s the only release window we really had available for this film” then mention how they’re looking forward to seeing how Shazam and WW 1984 perform


Honestly that would be a lot better than doubling down on editorial mandates that ruin the natural flow of the movies.

Word of mouth for Aquaman will carry it if it's good.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I hated how they made her color scheme pink and powder blue. Stick to the black and red.


Only her hair tips were pink and baby blue, which looked great IMO and played up her child woman aspect. I'm fine if she remained unchanged from neck up and instead wore the black and red jester outfit without the ridiculous pom pom head wear (always the element of her classic attire that translates worst to live action/real life). Suggesting something similar to this:



Though if they keep the classic head gear, then maybe a winter/X-Mas twist on it would be fun, like in the DCAU set _'Oy to the World_ Batgirl Adventures story:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I can hardly remember anything from JL... Wow.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think one of the main turn offs people have for the DCEU is the amount of rumors going on, no one knows what the hell is going on and apparently neither does WB. They are literally throwing eggs on the wall and see which sticks. Its unbelievable really, I think they can build another dc universe just called DC rumors from the amount of crap being thrown around. 
> 
> Is Ben Affleck still in or no? Is the new Batman film part of the universe, and will Batffleck still be in it or will there be two Batman actors in two separate universes? What the hell is up with this other Joker movie and why am I hearing Tom Huddleston aka Loki is being considered for the Riddler? My head is about to explode


That's the way the movie industry works. They throw out ideas and go with the ones that seem like they will work.  You just don't hear about movie ideas like Maria and Her Two Sisters or the biographical movie about Walter Cronkite
 because the geek press isn't interested in those movies and no one here talks about them.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I don't recall her Suicide Squad outfit showing that much skin, especially compared to most comics Harley outfits.


I think it was more that they sexualized her pretty badly. So giving her an outfit thats even less provocative is a smart move.

----------


## Gaastra

> Word of mouth for Aquaman will carry it if it's good.


Another movie has been added to the same day as aquaman called welcome to marwen!

It now has the week before--

Spider-man
Mortal engines 

Same day--

Bumblebee
battle angel
Homes and Watson
Welcome to marwen (the living dolls movie based on a true story)

3 days later

Mary poppins returns 
Unknown WB film

week later

Eli
Hellboy reboot
Dogs way home
What men want (what woman want 2)
Glass

Good luck aquaman!  Man i'm getting flashbacks of the day iron giant and mystery men came out out the same day along with 5 other films and all of them bombed!  ET show called it "worst day in Hollywood".  Why are all these big films on the same day?

----------


## Carabas

> I think it was more that they sexualized her pretty badly. So giving her an outfit that’s even less provocative is a smart move.


Harley Quinn has never not been sexualised except in the original cartoons (which seriously toned down how her designer Bruce Timm draws her).
The Suicide Squad film was pretty mild compared to most versions of her.
There is plenty to dislike about the film, but it gets a pass on that from me.

----------


## Gaastra

> If you asked me a month ago, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. But that Bumblebee trailer is getting a lot of people excited for the movie.



Yeah it's getting good buzz.  When I saw jurassic world everyone in our showing started talking about it out loud and they laughed at the rickroll joke.


Here is the other movie moved into the same day as aquaman.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Harley Quinn has never not been sexualised except in the original cartoons (which seriously toned down how her designer Bruce Timm draws her).
> The Suicide Squad film was pretty mild compared to most versions of her.
> There is plenty to dislike about the film, but it gets a pass on that from me.


I think you're making a mistake by comparing drawings and computerized cartoons with the visual treatment of an actual woman. On top of that, the general public does not overlap as an audience with comics and cartoons. Ayer's Suicide Squad brought in a lot of laymen into the mix, and many were offended with Harley needlessly in a bra with a group of men drooling, or the worst moment of all, her bending over, with zero knee bend, to steal the jewelry. It was a blatant ass shot and pissed people off.

----------


## Robotman

> Another movie has been added to the same day as aquaman called welcome to marwen!
> 
> It now has the week before--
> 
> Spider-man
> Mortal engines 
> 
> Same day--
> 
> ...


This has bad news written all over it. Hollywood is going to canabalize itself this winter. 

Ant-Man 2 finished the weekend with $76 million, which I guess is slightly below the expectations. I wonder if Aquaman will even hit the $70 million mark.

----------


## El_Gato

> Another movie has been added to the same day as aquaman called welcome to marwen!
> 
> It now has the week before--
> 
> Spider-man
> Mortal engines 
> 
> Same day--
> 
> ...


The majority of those movies are going to either bomb or underperform. Aquaman should be fine. We'll see when we finally get the trailer in 13 days

----------


## Confuzzled

> Harley Quinn has never not been sexualised except in the original cartoons (which seriously toned down how her designer Bruce Timm draws her).


And even there her first appearance was masquerading as a stripper in "sexy police attire". After that, there were a lot of innuendos and then some overt stuff in the TNBA episodes like Mad Love and the one with The Creeper.

----------


## Jokerz79

> The majority of those movies are going to either bomb or underperform. Aquaman should be fine. We'll see when we finally get the trailer in 13 days


I'm calling it now but Bumblebee will be number one that weekend it's trailer is getting good Buzz and it looks more E.T. than Bayformers and I think it will take the kids and families away from Aquaman which will give it the edge for number one and Mary Poppins will be Number one in week two of Aquaman. It would be demoralizing to never reach number one for Aquaman it would even hurt marketing with never being able to do ads like "Number One at the Box Office" they really should move it's release date.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm calling it now but Bumblebee will be number one that weekend


I doubt that. Especially at this point where we haven't even seen the first trailer for Aquaman. The WB marketing blitz for Arthur and Mera will kick-off when _The Nun_ comes out, and will crescendo till December.

----------


## Colossus1980

> Good luck aquaman!  Man i'm getting flashbacks of the day iron giant and mystery men came out out the same day along with 5 other films and all of them bombed!  ET show called it "worst day in Hollywood".  Why are all these big films on the same day?


Are any of those movies going to reach 200M domestically?  Will this turn out to be one of the worst box office for the winter?  Will Aquaman  have a shot at 250M domestically?  To me this is one of the most interesting lineups for Christmas.  I just don't see anything making a lot of money or generating a lot of buzz.

But on the plus side for Aquaman is there will be a long gap between hero movies.  Not sure how much of an audience Venom will get but it's possible the Ant-Man and the Wasp will be the last decent live-action hero movie so the public might be ready to watch some heroes in action.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

The JL at the Star Labs from Snyder's version of the movie...

----------


## El_Gato

> I'm calling it now but Bumblebee will be number one that weekend it's trailer is getting good Buzz and it looks more E.T. than Bayformers and I think it will take the kids and families away from Aquaman which will give it the edge for number one and Mary Poppins will be Number one in week two of Aquaman. It would be demoralizing to never reach number one for Aquaman it would even hurt marketing with never being able to do ads like "Number One at the Box Office" they really should move it's release date.


Well if Bumblebee ends up being good, then that bodes well for the upcoming Birds of Prey film, since it has the same script writer. As for buzz and box office, the jury is still out though, since Aquaman hasn't released a trailer yet.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Well if Bumblebee ends up being good, then that bodes well for the upcoming Birds of Prey film, since it has the same script writer. As for buzz and box office, the jury is still out though, since Aquaman hasn't released a trailer yet.


Bumblebee was the one thing people liked about the Bayformers there's a reason he's the only Transformer to get a solo film. Since the trailer drop the films has gotten good buzz with people my age excited to see G1 inspired designs and general audiences over the E.T. feel of the film and no Bay directing and also a good female lead.

Aquaman looks good from what we've seen so far and that is what would be tragic if it is good and lost in a shuffle. The DCEU needs good buzz and if Bumblebee takes number one at the opening weekend the headlines won't be Aquaman is Awesome it will be Bumblebee beats Aquaman.

----------


## Bored at 3:00AM

If I am reading the tea leaves correctly. Warner Bros is set to release six movies, which they will announce at Comicon. 

Aquaman, Shazam & Wonder Woman 1984.

Harley Quinn vs The Birds of Prey, Green Lantern Corps by Johns, Batman, Flash and Superman. Period. No 2, no subtitle: The Lighten-ing Up-penning. 

Is that more than six?  :Wink:

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Aquaman needs to move. I don't know if its going to get overtaken by both Bumblebee and Mary Poppins but those movies are going to take a chunk out of Aquaman potential box office. Even if one movie out the three flops that's still money being lost from each.

*Edit-
After looking more at the releases Hellboy and Glass might do some damage. Glass is coming right from Split and was revealed to be a continuation of Unbreakable which gave it more momentum. Hellboy isnt popular as the other big competitions but it still has name recognition and will definitely get more following along the way. Fans desperately wanted a 3rd Hellboy movie and this is their anwser.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Aquaman needs to move. I don't know if its going to get overtaken by both Bumblebee and Mary Poppins but those movies are going to take a chunk out of Aquaman potential box office. Even if one movie out the three flops that's still money being lost from each.
> 
> *Edit-
> After looking more at the releases Hellboy and Glass might do some damage. Glass is coming right from Split and was revealed to be a continuation of Unbreakable which gave it more momentum. Hellboy isnt popular as the other big competitions but it still has name recognition and will definitely get more following along the way. Fans desperately wanted a 3rd Hellboy movie and this is their anwser.


I agree. The best spot for it is to just move it into the first or second week fo January but that would require WB execs to potentially lose some of their 2018 bonus...which has proven to be an issue in the very recent past.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> The JL at the Star Labs from Snyder's version of the movie...



I very much look forward to the day when DC fans don't have to read news about movies that have already come out because there was so much mystery involved with the production process.

----------


## Gaastra

> The majority of those movies are going to either bomb or underperform. Aquaman should be fine.


Funny thing is that's what the transformers fans are saying about aquaman on the transformers sites.  As bad as the last tf was bumblebee is getting good buzz.  I'm not talking about online but non tf fans are buzzing about it.   Plus they will be bringing it to comic con at the same time dc is bringing aquaman!

https://screenrant.com/bumblebee-tra...omic-con-2018/


Also you really think mary poppins is going to bomb?   Spider-man is a wild card.  Not sure how it will do. Also what is that mystery WB film that comes a week and a half later?  We don't know yet.

Battle angel needs to move!  It's going to get crushed!

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## El_Gato

> Aquaman needs to move. I don't know if its going to get overtaken by both Bumblebee and Mary Poppins but those movies are going to take a chunk out of Aquaman potential box office. Even if one movie out the three flops that's still money being lost from each.
> 
> *Edit-
> After looking more at the releases Hellboy and Glass might do some damage. Glass is coming right from Split and was revealed to be a continuation of Unbreakable which gave it more momentum. Hellboy isnt popular as the other big competitions but it still has name recognition and will definitely get more following along the way. Fans desperately wanted a 3rd Hellboy movie and this is their anwser.


There is no where to move it. 2019 is packed as well, especially when it comes to superhero films. Looking at the December releases, Aquaman, Bumblebee, and Mary Poppins are probably going to eat into eaxh others grosses, at least opening weekend wise, but they should be able to coexist, seeing as how Jumanji and The Last Jedi coexisted. Quality will determine the outcome imo.

Edit: Justice League outgrossed the last Transformers movie and DC films have a track record of opening upwards of 100 million for the past 10 years (sans JL and GL) 




> If I am reading the tea leaves correctly. Warner Bros is set to release six movies, which they will announce at Comicon. 
> 
> Aquaman, Shazam & Wonder Woman 1984.
> 
> Harley Quinn vs The Birds of Prey, Green Lantern Corps by Johns, Batman, Flash and Superman. Period. No 2, no subtitle: The Lighten-ing Up-penning. 
> 
> Is that more than six?


Aquaman, Shazam and Wonder Woman 84 are all confirmed and happening. After that is apparently Harley Quinn & The Birds of Prey (filming in January, likely releasing 3 months after WW84). After that is anyone's guess. Maybe it'll be Batman, maybe it'll be Suicide Squad 2. I doubt it'll be GLC or MOS2 though since neither has a director.

----------


## kjn

> Edit: Justice League outgrossed the last Transformers movie and DC films have a track record of opening upwards of 100 million for the past 10 years (sans JL and GL)


On the other hand, the last Transformers movie crashed and burned worse than Justice League, and the DCEU has been on a downward trajectory since Batman Vs Superman. The reason Wonder Woman did so well was because it managed to keep up its run for so long as it did, not because it smashed at the opening weekend.

Both franchises have a lot to prove.

----------


## Confuzzled

Both movies have a lot to prove as they have the unenviable task of regaining the goodwill for their respective franchises. Who does more comes down to the marketing, which we can't judge for Aquaman as it hasn't really started yet.

----------


## Jokerz79

December 7th has no major blockbuster releases I believe it's all award contender and international films which is a different demographic than the general audience goer Aquaman will be targeting. IMO Aquaman would benefit from just coming out two weeks earlier. Hey and fans get to see it two weeks earlier.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Styles

> 


Where are those images taken from?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Where are those images taken from?


They were taken from a video uploaded (and later removed) on the DC Collectables YouTube channel.

https://heroichollywood.com/aquaman-...es-first-look/

----------


## MosSuperman

> They were taken from a video uploaded (and later removed) on the DC Collectables YouTube channel.
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/aquaman-...es-first-look/


Black Manta looks amazing.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Dwayne Johnson Says Black Adam Could Film Late 2019, Teases DC Cameos: http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/new...2019-dc-cameos

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

The Black Manta suit looks a bit too busy for me, but I guess the sleek all black look might not work very well on screen. About Aquaman,s box office competition, you do realize it has to go up against SOMETHING, right? A Transformers spinoff and a Mary Poppins remake is about as tame an opposition a blockbuster film can have.

----------


## Carabas

> The Black Manta suit looks a bit too busy for me, but I guess the sleek all black look might not work very well on screen. About Aquaman,s box office competition, you do realize it has to go up against SOMETHING, right? A Transformers spinoff and a Mary Poppins remake is about as tame an opposition a blockbuster film can have.


It's the first Transformers film in ages that has a lot of positive noise surrounding it, and Mary Poppins is a bigger icon than Aquaman. Don't sell them short.

----------


## Gaastra



----------


## Frontier

> 


Classic suit for the win. 

Manta's helmet looks lower and doesn't have the piping of the helmet in the EW pic, so I'm guessing that's a prototype. 

I like that they kept his dagger and armblades. 



> Dwayne Johnson Says Black Adam Could Film Late 2019, Teases DC Cameos: http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/new...2019-dc-cameos


I wonder what cameos this film could receive. Isn't it supposed to be set in the distant past? 

The only major characters who would've been alive back then are the Amazons. 

Maybe Djimon Hounsou's Wizard?

----------


## Jokerz79

> It's the first Transformers film in ages that has a lot of positive noise surrounding it, and Mary Poppins is a bigger icon than Aquaman. Don't sell them short.


Yeah I mean I want Aquaman to move even by two weeks just to it can do as well as possible.

----------


## El_Gato

> It's the first Transformers film in ages that has a lot of positive noise surrounding it, and Mary Poppins is a bigger icon than Aquaman. Don't sell them short.


Don't see Millenials or Generation Z getting excited for Mary Poppins, nor does it have the same demographic as the other two. So really it's between Aquaman and Transformers. Never underestimate WB marketing! Its what got Suicide Squad and It massive opening weekends. 

PS: Wonder Woman still opened upwards of 100M.

----------


## Confuzzled

Mary Poppins moved up to the same day as Aquaman, Bumblebee and Alita. Damn Disney!

I guess the Atlanteans will HAVE to move now.

----------


## Confuzzled

> December 7th has no major blockbuster releases I believe it's all award contender and international films which is a different demographic than the general audience goer Aquaman will be targeting. IMO Aquaman would benefit from just coming out two weeks earlier. Hey and fans get to see it two weeks earlier.


There's a reason for that. In the US, the first two weeks of December are X-Mas Shopping Weeks and many people usually don't go to cinemas then.

----------


## Doctor Know

I was brainstorming about the GL movie WB has planned. I like to brainstorm my own way of doing things. That being said, who could you stomach to see in a GL reboot?

I think people are sick to death of hero vs his evil twin. So no Sinestro.

Also, I imagine this tale being smaller in scale. Compared to GL 2011 save the world story.

So far I've contemplated:

Manhunters/Legion/Grandmaster - Man vs Machine is a tired trope at this point in film, but this has potential.

Star Sapphire - Either Carol Ferris or Deborah Darnell

Lobo - Bounty Hunter tracking down Lantern rings. There are 9 in total but 7 Corps you can harvest them from. 

Royal Flush Gang - If you gave them powers to compete against GL. 


If you had to go big/end of the world. I'd go with:

Anti-Monitor

The Centre

Chronos - A la JLU's Once and Future Thing

----------


## Robotman

> Mary Poppins moved up to the same day as Aquaman, Bumblebee and Alita. Damn Disney!
> 
> I guess the Atlanteans will HAVE to move now.


Ok, WB has to swallow their pride and move Aquaman.

----------


## Jokerz79

> There's a reason for that. In the US, the first two weeks of December are X-Mas Shopping Weeks and many people usually don't go to cinemas then.


People don't go out to do Christmas shopping anymore sadly as a fan of Brick and Mortar.

----------


## Bossace

> Mary Poppins moved up to the same day as Aquaman, Bumblebee and Alita. Damn Disney!
> 
> I guess the Atlanteans will HAVE to move now.


If they try to stay now itll kill the movie and wont have any legs it was already a hard enough day just do everyone a favor for who wants to see this movie do well financially and move it.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Mary Poppins moved up to the same day as Aquaman, Bumblebee and Alita. Damn Disney!
> 
> I guess the Atlanteans will HAVE to move now.


Move to WHERE????

Yall are forgetting about another movie-whose release day of December 14 BENEFITS DISNEY- Spider-Man: Into the Spiderverse with MILES MORALES.

So your choice is those 3 or Miles Morales.

Keep in mind this-Between the 14th & 21-you will have kids doing one of two things.

EARLY release from school for final exams (6th-12th)
Already out for Christmas Break

I would take my chances with Miles Morales. Because at least in Texas-most of our schools do finals leading to the 14th. After that you have kids already OUT. Meaning it does not MATTER what Mary, Bee & Alita do that weekend-you already got a head start of 7 days. 

Unless you want to move up to the 7th. Where all you have so far is Mary Queen of Scots. At least then you have the week leading to the 14th and kids out of school or early release.

----------


## Gaastra

One things for sure we know what number one will be.  No way aquaman will beat marry poppins.  It's now a fight for second place!  (also no surprise Disney has been airing the classic movie on tv to promote it.)

----------


## Doctor Know

> One things for sure we know what number one will be.  No way aquaman will beat marry poppins.  It's now a fight for second place!  (also no surprise Disney has been airing the classic movie on tv to promote it.)


I think your overestimating the public's interest in a Mary Poppins remake. If it was the Will Smith Aladdin remake, or Jon Favreau's Lion King remake, or the Mulan remake, then there would be cause for concern. 

However, I doubt there is serious hunger for a movie about a Nanny and children. Considering the book is nothing like the original Disney adapation. I don't know who a remake would be for.


As for the crowded dates. Studio films continue to cannibalize each other.

----------


## Gaastra

Well they said that about jungle book and it was a big hit.  Batb came after and was also a big hit and pooh is next!  Plus like I said Disney is airing the first one on tv so kids who have not seen it can.  (smart move)

----------


## Doctor Know

> Well they said that about jungle book and it was a big hit.  Batb came after and was also a big hit and pooh is next!  Plus like I said Disney is airing the first one on tv so kids who have not seen it can.  (smart move)


The Jungle Book was CGI production and adventure. People love Beauty and the Beast animated. And doing an almost shot for shot remake musical, with songs everybody can sing along too was what people enjoyed. 


A story about a flying nanny being the governess to 2 children, an workaholic father, and set in early 1900s London. Doesn't really scream mega millions. Just going by Disney's other ventures into this genre. Like their Narnia films, or Oz the Great and Powerful. Even WB's LOTR/Hobbit and their Harry Potter/Fantastic Beasts films have more to offer. 


Disney has done a lot better with their live action remakes of animate movies people care about. 

Alice in Wonderland 1
Maleficent - The sequel of which is filming now.
Cinderella
Beauty and the Beast
Jungle Book

I don't think kids today will care about the movie. It'll be up to the parents who saw the first one.

----------


## El_Gato

> One things for sure we know what number one will be.  No way aquaman will beat marry poppins.  It's now a fight for second place!  (also no surprise Disney has been airing the classic movie on tv to promote it.)


Lol you're way overestimating Mary Poppins. Not sure why though... Younger folks definitely won't care for it

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...y-a-go-1126127

The Joaquin Phoenix Todd Phillips-directed Joker movie is officially slated to begin production in September.

Looks like the Elseworlds films are happening, for better or for worse.

----------


## RepHope

> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...y-a-go-1126127
> 
> The Joaquin Phoenix Todd Phillips-directed Joker movie is officially slated to begin production in September.
> 
> Looks like the Elseworlds films are happening, for better or for worse.


Well I guess that's that. If the DCEU continues to bomb I can see them scrapping everything besides WW and just sticking with standalones like these Elseworld movies.

----------


## Arsenal

Is Joker really a compelling enough character to support his own movie without the Bat?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Lol you're way overestimating Mary Poppins. Not sure why though... Younger folks definitely won't care for it


BvS moved because it was opening against Civil War and it was a good decision it's opening weekend was huge and would had taken a hit if facing Civil War simply because it would had deluded the audience potential. Aquaman is going to take a hit between Bumblebee and Mary Poppins if you support Aquaman and want it to succeed to it's fullest potential you should want it to move.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Lol you're way overestimating Mary Poppins. Not sure why though... Younger folks definitely won't care for it


They had that gag with Yondu in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 though. Must have deliberately been put it in for synergy purposes. I also think a lot of children are shown Poppins on home video by their parents who have a fondness for the film.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Is Joker really a compelling enough character to support his own movie without the Bat?


I guess yes and it has good people involved but the Joker is like Michael Myers to me less is more with any back story.

----------


## Confuzzled

> BvS moved because it was opening against Civil War and it was a good decision it's opening weekend was huge and would had taken a hit if facing Civil War simply because it would had deluded the audience potential. Aquaman is going to take a hit between Bumblebee and Mary Poppins if you support Aquaman and want it to succeed to it's fullest potential you should want it to move.


The problem is there's just no space though. Even January looks stronger than usual with Glass (had forgotten about that one previously) and the Hellboy reboot. As you said, December 7 is a vacant date but that's risking losing families where moms and dads are out shopping. Plus, Aquaman's legs will then be crushed by the simultaneous assault of Into The Spider-Verse (a movie that I think will be a bigger threat than Bumblebee), Mortal Engines, Bumblebee, Alita: Battle Angel and of course, Mary Poppins herself.

----------


## El_Gato

> BvS moved because it was opening against Civil War and it was a good decision it's opening weekend was huge and would had taken a hit if facing Civil War simply because it would had deluded the audience potential. Aquaman is going to take a hit between Bumblebee and Mary Poppins if you support Aquaman and want it to succeed to it's fullest potential you should want it to move.


There is absolutely no where for Aquaman to move though. Every where is jam packed. If it's an entertaining, quality film, then it'll do just fine.

----------


## Carabas

> Is Joker really a compelling enough character to support his own movie without the Bat?


I feel he's less a character than that he is a plot device in a suit. He's like a talkier Doomsday that way.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...y-a-go-1126127
> 
> The Joaquin Phoenix Todd Phillips-directed Joker movie is officially slated to begin production in September.
> 
> Looks like the Elseworlds films are happening, for better or for worse.


The one thing that brings me hope for that project is that Phoenix has been really picky with his roles for the last ten years or so, he wouldn't have signed on if he didn't like the script and/or pitch.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

An Official Shazam Still has been released:


Looks like they're taking some story cues from Geoff Johns' Shazam, as expected - though Shazam brought soda instead of beer here.

(Maybe it's alcoholic soda?)

----------


## richalex

My bad, that is the Freddie actor.

----------


## Doctor Know

> An Official Shazam Still has been released:
> 
> 
> Looks like they're taking some story cues from Geoff Johns' Shazam, as expected - though Shazam brought soda instead of beer here.
> 
> (Maybe it's alcoholic soda?)


Nice!

----------


## Frontier

> An Official Shazam Still has been released:
> 
> 
> Looks like they're taking some story cues from Geoff Johns' Shazam, as expected - though Shazam brought soda instead of beer here.
> 
> (Maybe it's alcoholic soda?)


Yep, it's based off the Johns' story all right  :Stick Out Tongue: .

The suit is definitely based on the New 52 look but the texture seems more "Captain Marvel." 

Does it still have the random hood?

----------


## Elmo

I noticed nobody posted this.

It's been revealed that Djimon Hounsou plays the Wizard!
http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/10/djim...shazam-wizard/

Terrific casting.

----------


## RepHope

I think Shazam is going to be a WW-tier sleeper hit.

----------


## Robotman

Dwayne Johnson stated that he won’t have a cameo in Shazam. Bummer. I really wanted to see a quick flashback or hint of the Wizard’s previous champion. 




> I noticed nobody posted this.
> 
> It's been revealed that Djimon Hounsou plays the Wizard!
> http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/10/djim...shazam-wizard/
> 
> Terrific casting.


Kinda disappointed that Ron Cephas Jones dropped out. I think he has a more interesting look for the Wizard. He looks like he could play a North African or Middle Eastern character. I always thought The Wizard should have a mixed race look as he’s associated with gods from different cultures.

----------


## Frontier

> I noticed nobody posted this.
> 
> It's been revealed that Djimon Hounsou plays the Wizard!
> http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/10/djim...shazam-wizard/
> 
> Terrific casting.


Actually, I posted a link about it earlier  :Smile: . 

I do find it kind of amusing that he's going to be jumping from two different Captain Marvel movies from the Big Two  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Dwayne Johnson stated that he won’t have a cameo in Shazam. Bummer. I really wanted to see a quick flashback or hint of the Wizard’s previous champion.


If this Black Adam thing actually gets off the ground, I'm curious how soon before we see him go toe-to-toe with Billy.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They had that gag with Yondu in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 though. Must have deliberately been put it in for synergy purposes. I also think a lot of children are shown Poppins on home video by their parents who have a fondness for the film.


LOL home video
the new generation has no particular memories to Poppins, its a shout out to adults starllord is like 40 or close to it and makes refrences  that your preants will get but not the children

----------


## Rac7d*

> There is absolutely no where for Aquaman to move though. Every where is jam packed. If it's an entertaining, quality film, then it'll do just fine.


New years might work

----------


## Robotman

Robert Downey Jr. attended a Teen Titans Go! To the Movies screening. 

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/07/...-movies-event/

See angry internet fanboys, its all supposed to be fun. (Not referring to anyone on these boards. But a lot of Twitter and Facebook folks.)

----------


## Frontier

> Robert Downey Jr. attended a Teen Titans Go! To the Movies screening. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/07/...-movies-event/
> 
> See angry internet fanboys, it’s all supposed to be fun.


Not that RDJ hasn't had choice words for DC movies in the past  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Robotman

So I’m guessing Geoff Johns’ 3 Jokers story is a way to allow Hollywood to have their Joker origin but still keep his past a secret in the comics. I’m sure he heard this was brewing for a while. The 3 Jokers story allows for at least one of them to be the unknow origin Joker.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Robert Downey Jr. attended a Teen Titans Go! To the Movies screening. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/07/...-movies-event/


Isn't he too old to watch something like TTG?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jokerz79

> Isn't he too old to watch something like TTG?


My old man once took a man's prosthetic leg at the VA hospital over the guy turning off his bugs bunny cartoons took the staff 3 days to find that leg.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Lol you're way overestimating Mary Poppins. Not sure why though... Younger folks definitely won't care for it


NEVER underestimate what folks will want to see. You saw Disney underestimate Black Panther.

Making Justice League number-yeah but a billion-no one could have seen that coming.

I know folks want to say no one will see it because of shopping but remember KIDS are out of school at that time. Including college kids who are not playing basketball.

They are not going to be shopping all day long.

----------


## Elmo

> NEVER underestimate what folks will want to see. You saw Disney underestimate Black Panther.


when did anyone see that? I'm pretty sure everyone including Disney was convinced that it would be a guaranteed success, even before he appeared in Civil War. it was the movie and character everyone was talking about for the past couple years

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> when did anyone see that? I'm pretty sure everyone including Disney was convinced that it would be a guaranteed success, even before he appeared in Civil War. it was the movie and character everyone was talking about for the past couple years


Nobody thought it was going to make the kind of money it did until a week or two before and the tracking was showing a monsoon.

----------


## Confuzzled

> New years might work


It will miss all the lucrative X-Mas holidays

----------


## Jokerz79

> It will miss all the lucrative X-Mas holidays


In a 7 day period you are looking at the releases of Mortal Engines, Spider-Man into the Spiderverse, Aqauman, Mary Poppins, Bumblebee, Alita Battle Angel, Holmes and Watson, and Welcome to Marwen. Christmas isn't as lucrative as being alone when released. Truth is this is just one of the most crazy packed weeks I've ever seen.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Well Henry Cavill didn't help MoS 2's chances with his controversial comments on #MeToo. 

Remember last year at this time when we were thinking DC would announce the Superman sequel at ComicCon? Doesn't even look like that's happening this year.

----------


## Elmo

> Nobody thought it was going to make the kind of money it did until a week or two before and the tracking was showing a monsoon.


It definitely wasn't "highest grossing of all time" obvious but it was still extremely obvious. That movie permeated around twitter culture for over year, and the success of Get Out was a 100% guarantee that the movie's PoC cast was what would help it be successful and that its other merits didn't even matter. Let's also not forget that almost all of Marvel's movies have made the #1 spot and/or broken some sort of record.

Anyone who thought that Black Panther wasn't going to be a record smashing box office hit was severely in the minority opinion.

----------


## Robotman

> Well Henry Cavill didn't help MoS 2's chances with his controversial comments on #MeToo. 
> 
> Remember last year at this time when we were thinking DC would announce the Superman sequel at ComicCon? Doesn't even look like that's happening this year.


Henry, what is your definition of flirting?!?

----------


## cgh

> Is Joker really a compelling enough character to support his own movie without the Bat?


Have you read Azzarrello and Bermejos Joker from 2008? I really hope this is what they are going for with this movie, probably my favourite Joker ever.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> Well Henry Cavill didn't help MoS 2's chances with his controversial comments on #MeToo. 
> 
> Remember last year at this time when we were thinking DC would announce the Superman sequel at ComicCon? Doesn't even look like that's happening this year.


He quickly apologized. It’s a non-issue, imo.

----------


## byrd156

> He quickly apologized. Its a non-issue, imo.


I get what he was saying, he just worded it kinda weird. His fear of people turning against him isn't unfounded. Maybe his pursuit of a partner looks wrong from an outsider's perspective or he says the wrong thing. Then it blows up into a whole story just like him merely making comments about the topic.

----------


## RepHope

> He quickly apologized. It’s a non-issue, imo.


Remember how quickly everyone forgot Evans and Renner? Yeah I expect the same thing to happen here.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Henry, what is your definition of flirting?!?


Celebrities tend to be a paranoid bunch anyway thanks to the heavy public/media scrutiny. What were his manager and PR people doing though letting that statement be included in the published interview?

----------


## Korath

A photo of one of the Seven Kingdoms of Atlantis : http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/13/aqua...mpression=true

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> A photo of one of the Seven Kingdoms of Atlantis : http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/13/aqua...mpression=true


That looks sick! Wan is definitely bringing the goods.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> A photo of one of the Seven Kingdoms of Atlantis : http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/13/aqua...mpression=true


Finally! Something to talk about besides prophecies of doom! :Stick Out Tongue: 

And yeah, that is pretty awesome! This movie is definitely going to be a real feast for the senses. That much is certain.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> Finally! Something to talk about besides prophecies of doom!
> 
> And yeah, that is pretty awesome! This movie is definitely going to be a real feast for the senses. That much is certain.


I've heard that the test screenings have been great. WB may have a monster hit on their hands.

----------


## Frontier

> A photo of one of the Seven Kingdoms of Atlantis : http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/13/aqua...mpression=true


That looks awesome  :Cool: .

I wonder if every Kingdom has their own trident? 

(And boy is Djimon Hounsou racking up the comic book movie appearances  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I've heard that the test screenings have been great. WB may have a monster hit on their hands.


I've heard the same. Lookin' forward to it!

----------


## BatmanJones

> I've heard that the test screenings have been great. WB may have a monster hit on their hands.


In other words it's looking like every DCEU film that wasn't directed by Zach Snyder will have been a monster hit. Granted two movies is a small sample size but not when you consider that Snyder also got 2 and would have had a third if WB execs hadn't found it "unwatchable" and fired him. 

Oh wait, forgot Suicide Squad (way too easy to do). So actually 2/3 of DCEU films not directed by ZS will have been monster hits if this one is. 

That's a whole different narrative than every DCEU film sucks but Wonder Woman. 

Really, apart from SS, it turns out it's just that one director that was very poorly received over 3 films out of 5 with WW and SS splitting the remainder. You take Snyder out of the math on any of it though and DCEU/DC Films looks like a successful brand. Of course you can't do that so it's an unsuccessful brand. Hopefully that changes over time and hopefully Aquaman is as good as or better than Wonder Woman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Well that didn't last long.....

----------


## Styles

> A photo of one of the Seven Kingdoms of Atlantis :


Man, that looks fantastic. I can't wait to see the other kingdoms.

----------


## Bossace

I’m excited about this movie potientally being spectacular. I still feel like this release date is going to cause this movie regardless how good to start off financially limping just because how overly stuffed it is. This was before Disney decided to move in. I’m just worried this movie won’t get to the audiences who deserve to see it. Coming out at number 1 on opening is something this movie needs.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I’m excited about this movie potientally being spectacular. I still feel like this release date is going to cause this movie regardless how good to start off financially limping just because how overly stuffed it is. This was before Disney decided to move in. I’m just worried this movie won’t get to the audiences who deserve to see it. Coming out at number 1 on opening is something this movie needs.


That's my fear so far it looks great and deserves the best chance possible. I know many here don't believe Mary Poppins or Bumblebee will be big but IMO they're taking the one and two spots opening weekend and even if Aquaman pulls it off and get number one which I really don't see but if it does it still IMO won't break a 100 million opening weekend and any other weekend I think that's a given with his great this looks.

----------


## Confuzzled

I wonder if there will be a reference to Queen Clea and Venturia.

----------


## Gaastra

> I've heard that the test screenings have been great. WB may have a monster hit on their hands.


Not with 5 others movies out on the same day (one a Disney film)  plus two big movies less then 7 days before it, it won't.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I wonder if there will be a reference to Queen Clea and Venturia.


it's really annoying that Clea has probably been held hostage by Johns for his Seven Seas event that will probably never materialize.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Not with 5 others movies out on the same day (one a Disney film)  plus two big movies less then 7 days before it, it won't.


People watch multiple movies during the holiday season. Just look at how much Jumanji 2 and The Greatest Showman made last year in the face of The Last Jedi. This time there isn't even a Star Wars movie. It's not that much of a dealbreaker.




> it's really annoying that Clea has probably been held hostage by Johns for his Seven Seas event that will probably never materialize.


Pity about the Seven Seas storyline. I think Clea will soon be back on the table for use now.

----------


## Serpico Jones

There’s rumors going around that a major announcement is going to happen tomorrow.

----------


## El_Gato

> There’s rumors going around that a major announcement is going to happen tomorrow.


Wonder what it could be and why they're not juat saving it for Comic Con on Saturday.

----------


## Serpico Jones

> Wonder what it could be and why they're not juat saving it for Comic Con on Saturday.


There’s some rumblings that it’s Batman related.

----------


## golgi

> Theres rumors going around that a major announcement is going to happen tomorrow.


Do you have a link?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Do you have a link?


https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...78636729921537

On a side note, reporters will be visiting the Aquaman set tomorrow as well...

----------


## Serpico Jones

Could also be Birds of Prey casting. These are all rumblings being passed around twitter.

----------


## El_Gato

> Could also be Birds of Prey casting. These are all rumblings being passed around twitter.


It's Birds of Prey. Grace just did a video citing the lineup from multiple sources. The movie includes Harley Quinn, Black Canary, Huntress, Katana, Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> It's Birds of Prey. Grace just did a video citing the lineup from multiple sources. The movie includes Harley Quinn, Black Canary, Huntress, Katana, Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain.


Good lineup but no Batgirl makes me question is legitimacy

----------


## El_Gato

> Good lineup but no Batgirl makes me question is legitimacy


Guess we'll find out tomorrow. Grace has a good track record with scoops. 

What I find funny though is that Margot took SS2 premise for BOP, which is why SS2 went back to drawing board and was likely delayed lol

----------


## Vanguard-01

Here's the video!

----------


## Robotman

> Here's the video!


Wow if this is true I’m pretty bummed. It’s not the Birds of Prey without Babs. And the plot, as Grace points out, has been done way too many times. “There’s a kid with special abilities that we have to rescue!” Yeah just saw that in Logan, Deadpool 2, and countless other movies. And David Cain as the villain?!? Out of all the amazing DC villains they chose him? 

I would have much preferred a plot in which the BoP and the Gotham City Sirens have to join forces in an uneasy alliance. Not Harley taking Babs place in the Birds of Prey. I’m a Harley fan, but that just seems wrong. 

I’m hoping this isn’t true.

----------


## Bossace

Ugh poor Barbara. I get that Harley Quinn is a marketing gold mine for DC but I wish they would have used that character for Gotham city Sirens which could have been good and made money based off of Harley alone and then whoever else they cast as Cat and Ivy. Don’t just rip Barbara’s team from her and slip Harley in it feels weird and off. I feel like you could do this same exact story for Cassandra with Cat and Ivy and call it and it GSS would work if not do better because Cat and Ivy have bigger name recognition than everyone in this birds of prey movie.

----------


## El_Gato

> Wow if this is true I’m pretty bummed. It’s not the Birds of Prey without Babs. And the plot, as Grace points out, has been done way too many times. “There’s a kid with special abilities that we have to rescue!” Yeah just saw that in Logan, Deadpool 2, and countless other movies. And David Cain as the villain?!? Out of all the amazing DC villains they chose him? 
> 
> I would have much preferred a plot in which the BoP and the Gotham City Sirens have to join forces in an uneasy alliance. Not Harley taking Babs place in the Birds of Prey. I’m a Harley fan, but that just seems wrong. 
> 
> I’m hoping this isn’t true.


I'm the opposite. Im hoping this is all true and i couldn't be happier! Cassandra Cain finally getting some attention!

----------


## Godlike13

I doubt they would want to introduce Batgirl in a rated R film, so it makes sense she wouldn't be in this if the idea is to still do a Batgirl movie with her. Still not sure why a Haley Quinn movie is called Bird of Prey though, but this is the DCEU.

----------


## Bossace

> I doubt they would want to introduce Batgirl in a rated R film, so it makes sense she wouldn't be in this if the idea is to still do a Batgirl movie with her. Why a Haley Quinn movie is called Bird of Prey is what is confusing to me.


Exactly just use the plot with Cassandra use Harley Cat and Ivy the characters have big name recognition and you’ll have a success. Margot Robbie will draw in the crowd alone. These other characters in BOP aren’t so big, I wish they would build Barbara up and lead it into BOP. I’m not sure why this had to be a BOP movie and not GSS.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/creepypuppet/sta...02099725479936

A small trailer teaser from Wan.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Here's the video!


https://twitter.com/KnightGambit/sta...03676582473728

https://twitter.com/_ChristopherM/st...95486876905473

----------


## Bossace

> https://twitter.com/KnightGambit/sta...03676582473728
> 
> https://twitter.com/_ChristopherM/st...95486876905473


Guess we will know by tomorrow

----------


## Armor of God

> Wow if this is true Im pretty bummed. Its not the Birds of Prey without Babs. And the plot, as Grace points out, has been done way too many times. Theres a kid with special abilities that we have to rescue! Yeah just saw that in Logan, Deadpool 2, and countless other movies. And David Cain as the villain?!? Out of all the amazing DC villains they chose him? 
> 
> I would have much preferred a plot in which the BoP and the Gotham City Sirens have to join forces in an uneasy alliance. Not Harley taking Babs place in the Birds of Prey. Im a Harley fan, but that just seems wrong. 
> 
> Im hoping this isnt true.


Well its not like BOP has great villains to choose from to begin with. Almost all villains associated with this project from Joker to Penguin to Black Mask so far are pure Batman villains.
Still Grace isn't close to reliable as others have pointed out thus far.

----------


## byrd156

Last thing I heard was that they were going for Penguin for the villain but that was months ago and the rumor mill is always in flux. I just want a good line up with something faithful to the source material while still doing some new things. I always hate when people get annoyed when people bring up the idea of being close to the source material by saying "its been done" or "we already saw that". I can guarantee not even a quarter of the GA can name a single issue of BoP or name a majority of the team's lineup.

Part of the appeal of these superhero movies about lesser known characters is being introduced to them for the first time. Getting something accurate to comics makes the jump to comics easier for new fans. Plus getting the actual tone, spirit, and character right should always be a priority.

----------


## thebluefeline

> https://twitter.com/KnightGambit/sta...03676582473728
> 
> https://twitter.com/_ChristopherM/st...95486876905473


God this sounds so bad. Harley instead of Barbara? Why are they pushing Harley this much?

----------


## El_Gato

> God this sounds so bad. Harley instead of Barbara? Why are they pushing Harley this much?


She's popular, at least outside of comic fandom that is.

----------


## ross61

> God this sounds so bad. Harley instead of Barbara? Why are they pushing Harley this much?


Because money

----------


## Johnny

I call BS on that Grace "scoop". Barbara Gordon, who's the only DC female character other than WW that has a standalone movie in development, isn't part of a team that she co-founded, but Cassandra is? Get outta here. It's SDCC week and it's only Monday, so we're bound to get nonsense like this until the real news start rolling.

And should there be any actual truth to it, that's total crap. Wouldn't you want to use a movie like this as a vehicle for Barbara the way Civil War was for T'Challa and BvS was for Diana.

----------


## byrd156

> I call BS on that Grace "scoop". Barbara Gordon, who's the only DC female character other than WW that has a standalone movie in development, isn't part of a team that she co-founded, but Cassandra is? Get outta here. It's SDCC week and it's only Monday, so we're bound to get nonsense like this until the real news start rolling.
> 
> And should there be any actual truth to it, that's total crap. Wouldn't you want to use a movie like this as a vehicle for Barbara the way Civil War was for T'Challa and BvS was for Diana.


That seems like the most logical plan for her. Give the audience a sense of what she's like and if she is a stand out then fast track her movie. If not take your time to fix whatever issues where made.

----------


## Godlike13

Again though, this will be rated R. Which is probably not what they want to be going for with Batgirl.

----------


## Naked Bat

> Well that didn't last long.....


It never last more than a few hours before Zack snyder is thrown under the bus again.

----------


## Johnny

> Again though, this will be rated R. Which is probably not what they want to be going for with Batgirl.


I don't see why they can't have Batgirl in a non-family friendly environment. The Gail Simone run was rather gritty.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I don't see why they can't have Batgirl in a non-family friendly environment. The Gail Simone run was rather gritty.


I don't think it would do as well. I think Batgirl is perfect for a family friendly environment and can show a smart, quirky character that could be very popular with young woman and girls. The more people that enjoy the better.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I call BS on that Grace "scoop". Barbara Gordon, who's the only DC female character other than WW that has a standalone movie in development, isn't part of a team that she co-founded, but Cassandra is? Get outta here. It's SDCC week and it's only Monday, so we're bound to get nonsense like this until the real news start rolling.
> 
> And should there be any actual truth to it, that's total crap. Wouldn't you want to use a movie like this as a vehicle for Barbara the way Civil War was for T'Challa and BvS was for Diana.


its more likley cassandra is the agent  and Oracle is babs, but cass wouldnt not be leader it would be canary

----------


## Johnny

They should not skip over Barbara's career as Batgirl and go straight to Oracle. This isn't like skipping over Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel and going straight to her as Captain Marvel. Or introducing Hank Pym as an old man just so they could push Scott Lang instead. Honor some of these characters first before rushing to hand over the mantle to someone else.

----------


## Gaastra

> A small trailer teaser from Wan.


When I see that picture I think of the mortal kombat movie scene "it has begun!"  Lol! Not sure if that's what they were aiming for.

----------


## Robotman

If they wanted to do a R rated female hero and villain team up why call it Birds of Prey? That book has never been a “mature reader” title. And it’s not like it’s a well known proterty to mainstream audiences. On top of that they may be taking out the founder of the group.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If they wanted to do a R rated female hero and villain team up why call it Birds of Prey? That book has never been a “mature reader” title. And it’s not like it’s a well known proterty to mainstream audiences. On top of that they may be taking out the founder of the group.


People tend to forget how dark and gritty the early part of Gail Simone's first BoP run was. I mean not as dark as Secret Six, but it was dark in its own right. In many ways, it was the spiritual successor to _Alias_ (the Jessica Jones comic, not the Jennifer Garner show). And if they are including Oracle, there may even be flashbacks to The Killing Joke.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't see why they can't have Batgirl in a non-family friendly environment. The Gail Simone run was rather gritty.


I mean they can, but you have to think family friendly is the market they want with a character like Batgirl. Much like Wonder Woman. Movies are aimed at a far more general audience then comics. An R rated Batgirl, would be like an R rated Spider-Man. Batgirl seem like a character DC would want families to take their kids and teenagers to. Specially daughters. 




> If they wanted to do a R rated female hero and villain team up why call it Birds of Prey? That book has never been a “mature reader” title. And it’s not like it’s a well known proterty to mainstream audiences. On top of that they may be taking out the founder of the group.


Thats what i don't get. Why is this even a BoP movie to begin with.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Looks like Babs is gonna be absent from the DCEU 
I have to laugh but I'm not sad to see Cass get a push for once

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Count me in as one of the people who think the R-rated movie thing is just dumb. Deadpool and Logan could do it because neither were directly tied to a larger cinematic universe that required a consistent tone. The DC film universe has already been put in the ICU because the tone has been all over the place at best, and way, way too dark at worst. Don't see how an R-Rate BoP movie helps any of that. 

To me, this stinks of a WB exec seeing Deadpool's grosses, finding out that Harley is the closest thing to Deadpool's personality DC has, and thinks it needs to be R-Rated as a result.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Low-quality Shazam! clips: https://twitter.com/sonofjody/status...52311441895424

----------


## ross61

> Count me in as one of the people who think the R-rated movie thing is just dumb. Deadpool and Logan could do it because neither were directly tied to a larger cinematic universe that required a consistent tone. The DC film universe has already been put in the ICU because the tone has been all over the place at best, and way, way too dark at worst. Don't see how an R-Rate BoP movie helps any of that. 
> 
> To me, this stinks of a WB exec seeing Deadpool's grosses, finding out that Harley is the closest thing to Deadpool's personality DC has, and thinks it needs to be R-Rated as a result.


This was Robbie’s move tho. Since she was the one to get it started.

And not every movie has to appease to a family friendly audience. They’re needs to be more diversity in the types of movies and audiences they cater too.

----------


## Johnny

> I mean they can, but you have to think family friendly is the market they want with a character like Batgirl. Much like Wonder Woman. Movies are aimed at a far more general audience then comics. *An R rated Batgirl, would be like an R rated Spider-Man*. Batgirl seem like a character DC would want families to take their kids and teenagers to. Specially daughters.


Indeed.  :Smile:

----------


## Jokerz79

> This was Robbie’s move tho. Since she was the one to get it started.
> 
> And not every movie has to appease to a family friendly audience. They’re needs to be more diversity in the types of movies and audiences they cater too.


Actually they do when you're building a cinematic universe and brand where many of the films are 100 million plus budgets yes you're films need to be family friendly so that family audience constantly shows up for your films.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Hilden B. Lade



----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Actually they do when you're building a cinematic universe and brand where many of the films are 100 million plus budgets yes you're films need to be family friendly so that family audience constantly shows up for your films.


Yup. Plus a dozen other reasons why it's important to stay consistent.

----------


## Bossace

> 


Looks like they aren’t backing down from that date as much as I wish they would

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Bad. ASS! :Smile:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Looks like they aren’t backing down from that date as much as I wish they would


That poster looks like a photo from inside an Aquarium viewing room.

----------


## Confuzzled

The vertical poster:

----------


## Broddie

This could be the one that changes the tide (no pun). There's something refreshing about seeing DC heroes who never got their just due on film finally getting to spread their wings. That worked for Wonder Woman among other things.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Actually they do when you're building a cinematic universe and brand where many of the films are 100 million plus budgets yes you're films need to be family friendly so that family audience constantly shows up for your films.


Robbie said it had a much lower budget than the average superhero film (and if that rumored line-up is true than the VFX would be minimal). And you must have missed the shiploads of money the Deadpool films and Logan made despite being rated R.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Robbie said it had a much lower budget than the average superhero film (and if that rumored line-up is true than the VFX would be minimal). And you must have missed the shiploads of money the Deadpool films and Logan made despite being rated R.


You can be successful and make money but you must have missed where none of them have crossed the Billion dollar mark and that's what the WB wants with the DCEU and you have to build a consistent brand for that.

----------


## Confuzzled

> You can be successful and make money but you must have missed where none of them have crossed the Billion dollar mark and that's what the WB wants with the DCEU and you have to build a consistent brand for that.


Eh, I doubt anyone expects the first Birds of Prey film to cross a billion dollars.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Eh, I doubt anyone expects the first Birds of Prey film to cross a billion dollars.


I don't think you're getting his point. His point is that in order to start making the march toward movies crossing the billion dollar mark, you have build a consistent, trusted brand. He isn't saying BoP is going to be a billion dollar movie. Instead, he's saying that by making it an R-Rated movie, it will be getting in the way of building a consistent brand, thus impeding bigger budget DC movies from the desired billion dollar mark.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Eh, I doubt anyone expects the first Birds of Prey film to cross a billion dollars.


Not even close. They just want it to be a rock-solid movie that makes money, earns at least decent critical acclaim, and gets a lot of positive buzz from the general audience. 

I thought the anti-DCEU crowd's big gripe was that WB tried to catch up to Marvel too quickly? Suddenly they ain't crap if they aren't cranking out billion-dollar hits with every, single movie?

----------


## Styles

Aquaman Story Details Reveal The Seven Kingdoms & Orms Mission

----------


## Confuzzled

> I don't think you're getting his point. His point is that in order to start making the march toward movies crossing the billion dollar mark, you have build a consistent, trusted brand. He isn't saying BoP is going to be a billion dollar movie. *Instead, he's saying that by making it an R-Rated movie, it will be getting in the way of building a consistent brand, thus impeding bigger budget DC movies from the desired billion dollar mark.*


That makes absolutely no sense. So by that logic, Deadpool harmed X-Men: Apocalypse's box office instead of Apocalypse's own quality?  :Confused:

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> That makes absolutely no sense. So by that logic, Deadpool harmed X-Men: Apocalypse's box office instead of Apocalypse's own quality?


Uhh, Deadpool and X-Men Apocalypse very, very loosely share the same universe, so that is giant false equivalence. Not sure what your statement is saying about thoughtful brand building.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> ‘Aquaman’ Story Details Reveal The Seven Kingdoms & Orm’s Mission


Dang it. No mention of Venturia. That means no Queen Clea unless Venturia is being called "the Hidden Kingdom" now.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Uhh, Deadpool and X-Men Apocalypse very, very loosely share the same universe, so that is giant false equivalence. Not sure what your statement is saying about thoughtful brand building.


You do know that WB people have stated again and again that the DC Film Universe will be "very, very loosely connected" post-JL, right? As it should be for a universe that has such tonally and vastly differing "worlds" like Gotham, Metropolis, Atlantis/Themyscira and Apokolips.




> Dang it. No mention of Venturia. That means no Queen Clea unless Venturia is being called "the Hidden Kingdom" now.


Most of the realms don't have the same names as the ones established in the comics. What's "The Brine" supposed to be? Lemuria?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> You do know that WB people have stated again and again that the DC Film Universe will be "very, very loosely connected" post-JL, right? As it should be for a universe that has such tonally and vastly differing "worlds" like Gotham, Metropolis, Atlantis/Themyscira and Apokolips.


Show me one quote from a WB "people" where they say that. It's been hearsay that the DC universe will focus on solo films for a while -- which is way different than characters being loosely connected to one another in a shared universe. Totally different.

----------


## Godlike13

> Looks like Babs is gonna be absent from the DCEU 
> I have to laugh but I'm not sad to see Cass get a push for once


Batgirl movie is still planed I believe. 




> Indeed.


Spider-Man 3?

----------


## ross61

> Show me one quote from a WB "people" where they say that. It's been hearsay that the DC universe will focus on solo films for a while -- which is way different than characters being loosely connected to one another in a shared universe. Totally different.


It was in Johns and Diane Nelson pre-JL interview.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Show me one quote from a WB "people" where they say that.


Google is your friend:




> They’re not giving up on the idea of continuity, but they want to deemphasize the idea that all of these flicks are occupying the same space. “Our intention, certainly, moving forward is using the continuity to help make sure nothing is diverging in a way that doesn’t make sense, but there’s no insistence upon an overall story line or interconnectivity in that universe,” says Nelson, drawing nods from the top brass around her.


http://collider.com/dc-films-cinematic-universe-future/

----------


## Arsenal

> The vertical poster:


Arthur looks like he's about to drop the hardest mixtape of the 7 kingdoms

----------


## El_Gato

> I call BS on that Grace "scoop". Barbara Gordon, who's the only DC female character other than WW that has a standalone movie in development, isn't part of a team that she co-founded, but Cassandra is? Get outta here. It's SDCC week and it's only Monday, so we're bound to get nonsense like this until the real news start rolling.
> 
> And should there be any actual truth to it, that's total crap. Wouldn't you want to use a movie like this as a vehicle for Barbara the way Civil War was for T'Challa and BvS was for Diana.


Apparently Matt Reeves has full control of the main members of the Batfamily, so that could be why she isn't appearing. Also it seems Grace some things wrong, and some things right. We should know by later today, when the actual trade drops the scoop.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Apparently Matt Reeves has full control of the main members of the Batfamily, so that could be why she isn't appearing. Also it seems Grace some things wrong, and some things right. We should know by later today, when the actual trade drops the scoop.


There's going to be a Birds of Prey confirmation too or was the "Monday surprise" supposed to be this Aquaman poster?

----------


## El_Gato

> There's going to be a Birds of Prey confirmation too or was the "Monday surprise" supposed to be this Aquaman poster?


Monday's surprise is Birds of Prey related. Atleast thats what everyone is hinting at. Should be a big DC day today apparently.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Eh, I doubt anyone expects the first Birds of Prey film to cross a billion dollars.


No they don't just like Marvel doesn't expect Ant-Man and the Wasp but Marvel did expect the Avengers films too and the WB excepted Justice League and BVS to be billion dollar movies when they greenlighted them and for that you need a wide audience which includes families. The general audience may not go see every MCU film but they do know what to expect from all a fun entertaining film for their entire family they trust the brand people know they're going to see a MCU film even before a trailer drops. But you constantly jump around with tone and ratings it creates brand confusion and you won't achieve that level of loyalty and trust from the audience.

----------


## Frontier

> Here's the video!


I don't know what bothers me more, the idea of making the Birds of Prey Harley's team and leaving out the real Oracle, or doing a Cassandra movie and not involving Barbara.

Otherwise the team roster sounds like the kind of diverse team Margot was indicating the movie would be. 

But I imagine Shiva will probably function more like an independent part with her own goal then an actual member of the Birds.



> *I doubt they would want to introduce Batgirl in a rated R film*, so it makes sense she wouldn't be in this if the idea is to still do a Batgirl movie with her. Still not sure why a Haley Quinn movie is called Bird of Prey though, but this is the DCEU.


But they are introducing Batgirl in a rated-R film, Cass is the main drive of the movie apparently  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> I don't think it would do as well. I think Batgirl is perfect for a family friendly environment and can show a smart, quirky character that could be very popular with young woman and girls. The more people that enjoy the better.





> I mean they can, but you have to think family friendly is the market they want with a character like Batgirl. Much like Wonder Woman. Movies are aimed at a far more general audience then comics. An R rated Batgirl, would be like an R rated Spider-Man. Batgirl seem like a character DC would want families to take their kids and teenagers to. Specially daughters.


I think Batgirl is a very adaptable property. I think an R-rated Batgirl movie would be more like the Nolan films.

I don't think the Burnside Batgirl of late should be viewed as the de-facto Batgirl. 



> The vertical poster:


That's probably the most appropriate poster for a Jason Momoa Aquaman movie  :Smile: .



> Apparently Matt Reeves has full control of the main members of the Batfamily, so that could be why she isn't appearing. Also it seems Grace some things wrong, and some things right. We should know by later today, when the actual trade drops the scoop.


I don't know what sense there is in giving Reeve's full control of the Batfamily when they can't seem to decide the exact canonicity and time period of the movie.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.thewrap.com/birds-of-pre...renee-montoya/

The official "BoP" cast report comes from The Wrap. The line-up according to this report is Harley, Black Canary, Huntress, Cassandra Cain, and Renee Montoya. No mention of Katana or Shiva in the report. 

The villain is not named but will be someone who has never been adapted to the big screen.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

_"Someone please tell @gracerandolph to leave the scooping to the professionals. Her #BirdsOfPrey video scoop is INACCURATE! No KATANA, no LADY SHIVA, No DAVID CAIN!"_

https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status...40045619675136

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

In other news, another new Shazam! image:

----------


## Frontier

> https://www.thewrap.com/birds-of-pre...renee-montoya/
> 
> The official "BoP" cast report comes from The Wrap. The line-up according to this report is Harley, Black Canary, Huntress, Cassandra Cain, and Renee Montoya. No mention of Katana or Shiva in the report. 
> 
> The villain is not named but will be someone who has never been adapted to the big screen.


With a cast like this, I'm going to keep wondering why none of the rest of the group is arresting Harley  :Wink: .



> In other news, another new Shazam! image:


Cool LED costume Billy  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> _"Someone please tell @gracerandolph to leave the scooping to the professionals. Her #BirdsOfPrey video scoop is INACCURATE! No KATANA, no LADY SHIVA, No DAVID CAIN!"_
> 
> https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status...40045619675136


Grace was right in some things. El Mayimbe shouldn't even be talking since he spouted stupid crap before.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> https://www.thewrap.com/birds-of-pre...renee-montoya/
> 
> The official "BoP" cast report comes from The Wrap. The line-up according to this report is Harley, Black Canary, Huntress, Cassandra Cain, and Renee Montoya. No mention of Katana or Shiva in the report. 
> 
> The villain is not named but will be someone who has never been adapted to the big screen.


Harley and Renee? ugh. I don't hate Montoya but y'all couldn't put someone else?

----------


## Frontier

> Harley and Renee? ugh. I don't hate Montoya but y'all couldn't put someone else?


I wonder if they're going to have her become the Question? She seems kind out-of-place otherwise unless her connection with the GCPD involves her with the team.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> I wonder if they're going to have her become the Question? She seems kind out-of-place otherwise unless her connection with the GCPD involves her with the team.


I would like her being here better if she's the Question but since they used her full name I'm not so sure.

----------


## Frontier

> I would like her being here better if she's the Question but since they used her full name I'm not so sure.


They also just list Cassandra by her full name, so who knows which codename they'll use for her (if she has one at all).

----------


## Armor of God

Interesting line up but Babs fans are prolly upset lol. Well I guess everything will depend on the reception to this movie as far as who DC decides to make Batgirl or on Matt Reeves. The description does not mention a code name but at the same time I dont think its an official synopsis either.
Still some people on the net are suggesting that Robbie didn't go with the more natural Sirens film because she felt threatened by Catwoman and Ivy and that the reason Batgirl/Babs isn't in BOP because Babs is also a threat. Sounds like a stretch but if there's an iota of truth then DC shot themselves again.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Umberto Gonzales said a few weeks ago that Barbara is in BoP but not as Batgirl.

----------


## Armor of God

So I'm guessing they'll decide based on reception right?

----------


## Powertool

I've been maintaining for the past seven years that getting Barbara out of her wheelchair and Oracle identity was a vomit-inducing stunt that proves once and for all that Silver Age nostalgia is a net negative anywhere it's applied if the people pulling the strings just limit themselves at dictating that "_this_ character is much more iconic with this guy under the hood". 

Now, I can't say that the news of Cassie possibly beating Babs as the silver screen Batgirl fills me with glee, since there are many ways to screw everything up with this movie and I'd hate for Cassie's cinematographic debut to take place in an absolute stinker, but damn, if for the first time in months I don't feel there's a reason to see movie-of-a-thousand-shifts-in-focus!

----------


## Agent Z

> Harley and Renee? ugh. I don't hate Montoya but y'all couldn't put someone else?


Well, who did you have in mind?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

My theory is that Oracle will probably show up in BoP as a disembodied mystery person voice on a computer/holographic avatar/etc who brings all the Birds together, but it won't be revealed she's actually Barbara until the end of the film or in an-after credits scene to tease the Batgirl solo.

----------


## Frontier

> My theory is that Oracle will probably show up in BoP as a disembodied mystery person voice on a computer/holographic avatar/etc who brings all the Birds together, but it won't be revealed she's actually Barbara until the end of the film or in an-after credits scene to tease the Batgirl solo.


As long as it's not Harley  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I'm actually kind of wondering how she fits into this since she's the odd-woman out out of everyone here, since she's a criminal/Supervillain and everyone else is a hero, vigilante, or member of law enforcement.

----------


## MosSuperman

I'm probably not the only one here but I'd hate seeing Barabara as Oracle in a wheelchair chair.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Well, who did you have in mind?


Vixen or Manhunter. If Renee isn't going to be Question I'm not interested.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The lack of Barbara, either a Batgirl or Oracle, is weird. Surely there is going to be more news related to her. 

The collection of ladies they did confirm though is great. Renee is a wonderful surprise. Them announcing Cass by her full name might mean she has no codename, at least not yet. I think Cass has enough material to work with to provide selling points that a codename isn't needed.

----------


## Johnny

> The lack of Barbara, either a Batgirl or Oracle, is weird. Surely there is going to be more news related to her. 
> 
> The collection of ladies they did confirm though is great. Renee is a wonderful surprise. Them announcing Cass by her full name might mean she has no codename, at least not yet. I think Cass has enough material to work with to provide selling points that a codename isn't needed.


That's a good point. The article mentions all other characters' costumed identities, but Cass is just mentioned as "Cassandra Cain", not as "Batgirl". Maybe Babs is still planned to be the Batgirl in the standalone film. After all, when the news about the Batgirl movie first broke, the trades kept mentioning it will feature Barbara. They also mentioned her again when Christina Hodson took over as the writer after Whedon left a few months back. I doubt they decided to just change the Batgirl character out of the blue between April and July. Barbara probably was never planned to be in BoP. As weird as that may seem.

----------


## Raijin

> I'm probably not the only one here but I'd hate seeing Barabara as Oracle in a wheelchair chair.


The only time she served a purpose was in a wheelchair. I'm all for letting Cass shine.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> *The only time she served a purpose was in a wheelchair.* I'm all for letting Cass shine.


She served a purpose as Batgirl. 

Every DC hero's purpose is to wear a costume and do cool stuff. Batgirl meets the bare minimum of criteria, she didn't serve any less of a purpose than Batman, Robin, or Supergirl, her equivalent in the Super mtyhos.

----------


## Frontier

> That's a good point. The article mentions all other characters' costumed identities, but Cass is just mentioned as "Cassandra Cain", not as "Batgirl". Maybe Babs is still planned to be the Batgirl in the standalone film. After all, when the news about the Batgirl movie first broke, the trades kept mentioning it will feature Barbara. They also mentioned her again when Christina Hodson took over as the writer after Whedon left a few months back. I doubt they decided to just change the Batgirl character out of the blue between April and July. Barbara probably was never planned to be in BoP. As weird as that may seem.


Alternatively depending on reception or how far along _Batgirl_ moves in production, it could very well shift into a Cass spinoff. 



> She served a purpose as Batgirl. 
> 
> Every DC hero's purpose is to wear a costume and do cool stuff. Batgirl meets the bare minimum of criteria, she didn't serve any less of a purpose than Batman, Robin, or Supergirl, her equivalent in the Super mtyhos.


She served a valid purpose in both roles, and at least as Oracle she also got to mentor the other Batgirls.

----------


## Godlike13

I think them doing BoP with Harley at the helm says all that needs to be said about Oracle.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Alternatively depending on reception or how far along _Batgirl_ moves in production, it could very well shift into a Cass spinoff.


If they change things so that she's Oracle in the present, they could do a Cass!Batgirl movie that has extended flashbacks to a Babs!Batgirl case relevant to the present day story. 




> She served a valid purpose in both roles, and at least as Oracle she also got to mentor the other Batgirls.


Agreed, she serves a purpose in both roles. And both roles have aspects that can have other characters slide into: either as Batgirl (Cass or Steph) or Oracle (Cyborg for the JL, Alfred being a voice in Batman's ear, etc). 

Being the leader of the BOP would be something unique to her regardless of which identity she has. Or _you would think_ but I guess Harley can just be slotted into it??

----------


## Johnny

Don't be surprised if Harley suddenly has mad hacker skills. lol

----------


## Johnny

> Alternatively depending on reception or how far along _Batgirl_ moves in production, it could very well shift into a Cass spinoff.


I guess they have a chance to answer some of those questions at SDCC. When they show the DCEU slate, they could have the Batgirl logo with Babs or Cass artwork, or whatever they've been doing in past conventions.

I'm thinking Margot probably chose the line-up since she's really hands-on involved with the movie, while knowing the Batgirl movie was expected to have Barbara and like someone mentioned earlier, Gordon would probably be better suited for a non-R rated environment, so they went with another character who had previously carried the same mantle. Also, and I may be getting my facts wrong here, but didn't they mention the Batgirl movie was going to be an origin story? How would it be an origin story if either Babs or Cass were already active with the BoP earlier on. Or maybe it could be like the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie that's not dependent on continuity? Ugh, I'm losing my train of thought here.

----------


## Vakanai

> I don't think it would do as well. I think Batgirl is perfect for a family friendly environment and can show a smart, quirky character that could be very popular with young woman and girls. The more people that enjoy the better.


Not just young women and girls. No reason older women and males of all ages can't love Babs.

----------


## byrd156

If the rumors are true about the whole save the kid angle like Deapool 2 and Logan I feel like I already know how this movie is gonna go. Harley is gonna find out about Cass and try to save her from David because she sees herself in her situation. The BoP will think Harley kidnapped Cass conflict ensues and she is taken back team will work out differences and then save her.

----------


## byrd156

> In other news, another new Shazam! image:


I really hate the New 52 look. Captain Marvel should look like a golden age hero, this just doesn't have that feel at all.

----------


## Badou

Doing a BoP movie without Barbara is really bizarre. She is the most established member of the team and really its founder, but the DCEU is such a mess I can't say I'm all that surprised. I mean this BoP movie is being made to be a Harley movie for some strange reason.

----------


## Confuzzled

Umberto Gonzalez who reported the new line-up has already hinted that Barbara will appear, but not in her Batgirl persona. So I'm guessing Oracle is still a possibility.

Yay for Renee. That line-up even without Babs is strong, but I think the redhead librarian will wiggle her way in there. It's also possible they want to keep Oracle as the mysterious "Charlie" like figure for the Birds (Charlie's Angels) and keep her identity a surprise initially for non-comic book fans.

----------


## golgi

Love the SHAZAM costume. Very SHAZAMY. Also, YES! for Cassandra Cain. Huge fan.

----------


## MosSuperman

So who's going to be Batgirl in Batgirl?

----------


## Frontier

> I think them doing BoP with Harley at the helm says all that needs to be said about Oracle.


I think it says more about DC's emphasis on Harley and the creative control they've given Robbie more then anything else.



> Don't be surprised if Harley suddenly has mad hacker skills. lol


I don't need another blonde, DCU, hacker in my life  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> I'm thinking Margot probably chose the line-up since she's really hands-on involved with the movie, while knowing the Batgirl movie was expected to have Barbara and like someone mentioned earlier, Gordon would probably be better suited for a non-R rated environment, so they went with another character who had previously carried the same mantle. Also, and I may be getting my facts wrong here, but didn't they mention the Batgirl movie was going to be an origin story? How would it be an origin story if either Babs or Cass were already active with the BoP earlier on. Or maybe it could be like the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie that's not dependent on continuity? Ugh, I'm losing my train of thought here.


They haven't really clarified exactly what exactly is going on with the Batgirl film, other then indication Barbara will be the Batgirl in it (but even that's not set in stone in my opinion).

Ditto with Reeve's Batman film. 



> I really hate the New 52 look. Captain Marvel should look like a golden age hero, this just doesn't have that feel at all.


I think the original Captain Marvel look is definitely more unique, but I think this suit actually looks really good, all things considered  :Smile: .

(I still don't get the hood though. Does it still have the hood? It's hard to tell).

----------


## Robotman

If they plan to make a Batgirl movie or have Babs appear in Reeves Batman flick, then Cass Cain probably wont be referred to as Batgirl at any point in Birds of Prey. I just hope they dont give her the god awful code name Orphan. Black Bat is a cool name but, again, there may be an embargo about using Bat references until they figure out what the hell theyre doing with the solo movie. 

Its possible that Lady Shiva is in the movie but not as a member of the BoP, but as the main villain. That would be a great way to showcase her as one of the best fighters in the DCU by taking on all the other women by herself. I really couldnt care less about David Cain. Just a waste of a villain slot if he does appear. 

I like Rene Montoya but not as The Question. Vic Sage will always be my favorite version of the character. If Rene is the Question in BoP it could ruin any chance of seeing Vic Sage in a tv show or future movie.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

So, Cass will apparently be 11 years old in BoP: https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...61034886291463

There're rumors of a 4th movie at the DC SDCC panel: https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/1019034557809491968

----------


## Raijin

> She served a purpose as Batgirl. 
> 
> Every DC hero's purpose is to wear a costume and do cool stuff. Batgirl meets the bare minimum of criteria, she didn't serve any less of a purpose than Batman, Robin, or Supergirl, her equivalent in the Super mtyhos.


Oracle was pretty important to the DCU with her various connections to other heroes. As Batgirl, she's just another white girl in a superhero costume.

----------


## Frontier

> So, Cass will apparently be 11 years old in BoP: https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...61034886291463


Is this person usually reliable when it comes to this kind of info?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Is this person usually reliable when it comes to this kind of info?


Daniel R. is really reliable, he's the one who said that Ava DuVernay was working on a New Gods movie before an official announcement. You can't say it was a lucky guess.  :Wink:

----------


## Godlike13

> Oracle was pretty important to the DCU with her various connections to other heroes. As Batgirl, she's just another white girl in a superhero costume.


Except she wasn’t. She should have been, but she wasn’t. And just look here. Who are the characters that make it into the BoP movie, the girls in the costumes.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So who's going to be Batgirl in Batgirl?


Two theories:

Theory 1: Barbara appears as Oracle in Birds of Prey and the Batgirl solo film is based on Gail Simone's New 52 run with Babs regaining the use of her legs and getting back into the suit.

Theory 2: Barbara remains as Oracle throughout the DCEU and becomes Cassandra's mentor, who takes on the mantle of Batgirl.

----------


## Carabas

> She served a valid purpose in both roles, and at least as Oracle she also got to mentor the other Batgirls.


And as Oracle she operated on a global level and was powerful enough to be in Morrison's Big Seven JLA.

----------


## Confuzzled

Just my personal opinion:

Best Batgirl - Cass

Best role for Barbara - Oracle

----------


## Korath

I think that with Wheddon leaving the Batgirl project, WB/DC decided to change things up. I expect BoP to present to audiences Cassandra, Renee and co. alongside a Barbara Gordon as Oracle, so that in Batgirl we'll see Cass becoming the Batgirl. It would actually be quite cool, really.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> So, Cass will apparently be 11 years old in BoP: https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...61034886291463
> 
> There're rumors of a 4th movie at the DC SDCC panel: https://twitter.com/ManaByte/status/1019034557809491968


Oh, DC wants their own X-23

----------


## Confuzzled

> I think that with Wheddon leaving the Batgirl project, WB/DC decided to change things up. I expect BoP to present to audiences Cassandra, Renee and co. alongside a Barbara Gordon as Oracle, so that in Batgirl we'll see Cass becoming the Batgirl. It would actually be quite cool, really.


Especially if they save the David Cain/Lady Shiva plot for the Batgirl solo.

----------


## Armor of God

> And as Oracle she operated on a global level and was powerful enough to be in Morrison's Big Seven JLA.


Yeah but Oracle isn't even showing up in BOP which says a lot about the role. Its a dead end in this era with all those tech savvy heroes running around. Moreover the whole IT girl who sits behind a computer role is so cliche and basic. Truth is that no one would want their favorite character to be Oracle.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Yeah but Oracle isn't even showing up in BOP which says a lot about the role. Its a dead end in this era with all those tech savvy heroes running around. Moreover the whole IT girl who sits behind a computer role is so cliche and basic. Truth is that no one would want their favorite character to be Oracle.


A lot of people had their favorite character be Oracle. She always made it into the Top 10 of Most Popular DC Characters vote based lists. 

Also, she wasn't any "IT girl". She had a rich history and pathos behind her. The only reason her status quo changed was because Gail Simone wanted her to return to the Batgirl persona. A change that has impacted the BOP franchise for the worse IMO. Hopefully she appears as Oracle in the movie.

----------


## Agent Z

> A lot of people had their favorite character be Oracle. She always made it into the Top 10 of Most Popular DC Characters vote based lists. 
> 
> Also, she wasn't any "IT girl". She had a rich history and pathos behind her. The only reason her status quo changed was because Gail Simone wanted her to return to the Batgirl persona. A change that has impacted the BOP franchise for the worse IMO. Hopefully she appears as Oracle in the movie.


Um, since when did Simone want Barbara back as Batgirl?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Um, since when did Simone want Barbara back as Batgirl?


Since before she started writing comics? In fairness to her, she did have a point that there was no excuse for Barbara to stay in the wheelchair in a universe of healing purple rays and what not. But she did get into trouble for saying something like "The REAL Batgirl finally returns" for which she profusedly apologised later to Cass and Steph fans.

Also, while she had a point, I don't think Oracle was inherently a misogynistic concept (in fact, it was a feminist concept salvaged from a misogynist incident) and she also provided much needed representation for a marginalized group. "Healing" Oracle also robs a lot of the poignancy built into the foundation of BOP, a foundation that ironically Simone herself helped build and strengthen.

----------


## Armor of God

> A lot of people had their favorite character be Oracle. She always made it into the Top 10 of Most Popular DC Characters vote based lists. 
> 
> Also, she wasn't any "IT girl". She had a rich history and pathos behind her. The only reason her status quo changed was because Gail Simone wanted her to return to the Batgirl persona. A change that has impacted the BOP franchise for the worse IMO. Hopefully she appears as Oracle in the movie.


People can have Oracle as a favorite character but no one else would want their favorite character to be like Oracle. Batman Beyond is popular but how many fans want Bruce to sit in a chair and be a salty old guy all the time?
It wasn't Simone, it was DC. Her rich history was as Batgirl. Still I dont care who becomes Batgirl but Oracle isn't really much of a role in this era. This just proves it and I'm sure DC would've marketed the heck out of it if Babs was in it as Oracle.

----------


## Godlike13

When was Oracle winning popularity polls? No one seem to give 2 craps about Oracle and her so called "importance" till they made her Batgirl again, and, to put on my tin foil hat, it made things inconvenient for characters some people actually cared about (I know that’s unfair, but it’s hard not to notice).

BTW I adore Oracle. Next to Nightwing no one else even came close for me except for Oracle. Truth be told part of me would love to see a modern day Oracle 2.0., but the other part doesn’t trust DC and knows DC will always truly be behind the girls in the costumes at the end of the day. And fans too for that matter.

----------


## Confuzzled

> When was Oracle winning popularity polls?


In the 00's. Why do you think she had so many appearances, one-shots, starring roles in minis etc.?

----------


## Confuzzled

> People can have Oracle as a favorite character but no one else would want their favorite character to be like Oracle. Batman Beyond is popular but how many fans want Bruce to sit in a chair and be a salty old guy all the time?
> It wasn't Simone, it was DC. Her rich history was as Batgirl. Still I dont care who becomes Batgirl but Oracle isn't really much of a role in this era. This just proves it and I'm sure DC would've marketed the heck out of it if Babs was in it as Oracle.


They are probably keeping Oracle's identity as a surprise for non-fans. It's way too early to say for sure whether she would be left out of the marketing if she's in it though. Gonzalez himself teased she may be in it, just not as Batgirl.

----------


## Nite-Wing

That means the plans for a Batgirl movie have changed and its likely that Cass will be Batgirl for the eventual solo movie
I mean that's not bad at all 
Lady Shiva and David Cain are likely the villains of BOP 

My only gripe so far is no Catwoman and Poison Ivy and it looks like Harley will actually be a founder of the BOP
None of those characters are really her friends not to mention even have an interesting dynamic with her so its gonna be an interesting sell

----------


## Johnny

> Oracle was pretty important to the DCU with her various connections to other heroes. As Batgirl, she's just another white girl in a superhero costume.


So that's what this is about. We shouldn't have Barbara as Batgirl in this movie because god forbid there will be another white girl on the team. By the way, Gordon was hyper-intelligent and had connections in the superhero community even before she became Oracle, so why can't we see a transition from one role to the other over the course of a couple of movies, rather than completely tossing the original character aside just because she's "another white girl".

I will hold on to my theory that Cass is there to sort of "compensate" for Barbara not being in the movie due to the standalone Batgirl feature. And if Cass is indeed 11 years old here, I don't see them making an underage girl the main Batgirl character of the DCEU. It's like skipping over Dick Grayson to bring in Damian instead.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah but Oracle isn't even showing up in BOP which says a lot about the role. Its a dead end in this era with all those tech savvy heroes running around. Moreover the whole IT girl who sits behind a computer role is so cliche and basic. Truth is that no one would want their favorite character to be Oracle.


She _was_ my favourite character. Batgirl I don't really care for. Rooftop vigilantes are a dime a dozen in Gotham.




> People can have Oracle as a favorite character but no one else would want their favorite character to be like Oracle.


So?
I'm sure non-Green Lantern fans would like their favourite character be a Green Lantern.

----------


## Vanguard-01

In DC Superhero Girls, Barbara is Batgirl, but "Oracle" still exists as Bab's AI support system similar to JARVIS and FRIDAY for MCU Tony Stark. 

Something like that could be made to work, I suppose. I still think Oracle could be a great inspiration for differently abled viewers, though.

Oh, and we REALLY need to stop using Oracle's popularity within the comic book fanbase as a metric to judge the role's worth. If it hasn't been made clear by now that we're a very small limited group when compared to the larger moviegoing audience, I don't know how much more evidence we need.

----------


## Raijin

> So that's what this is about. We shouldn't have Barbara as Batgirl in this movie because god forbid there will be another white girl on the team. By the way, Gordon was hyper-intelligent and had connections in the superhero community even before she became Oracle, so why can't we see a transition from one role to the other over the course of a couple of movies, rather than completely tossing the original character aside just because she's "another white girl".
> 
> I will hold on to my theory that Cass is there to sort of "compensate" for Barbara not being in the movie due to the standalone Batgirl feature. And if Cass is indeed 11 years old here, I don't see them making an underage girl the main Batgirl character of the DCEU. It's like skipping over Dick Grayson to bring in Damian instead.


There's honestly nothing special about Barbara as Batgirl. Before she was confined to a wheelchair(where she belongs, tbh), no one gave a crap about her. She doesn't have a definitive run as Batgirl. Her Year One was solid but that's it. This isn't debatable for me. All i see is a 'white girl in a superhero costume' 

Come back when you have things that are unique for Gordon as Batgirl.

----------


## Johnny

> Oh, and we REALLY need to stop using Oracle's popularity within the comic book fanbase as a metric to judge the role's worth. If it hasn't been made clear by now that we're a very small limited group when compared to the larger moviegoing audience, I don't know how much more evidence we need.


Well, we're comic book fans discussing comic book characters in a comic book community. The "general audience" doesn't even need to be part of this discussion. If I wanted to know what a GA member thinks about this, I wouldn't be here. Besides, the whole Batgirl/Oracle/general audience discussion shows this isn't really based on popularity, since only the comic book community is aware of who Cassandra Cain is, as compared to Barbara Gordon who's had a prominent presence in outside media for decades. Barbara's popularity, whether as Batgirl or Oracle, apparently didn't matter to WB as far as this movie is concerned.

----------


## Jokerz79

I love Oracle and all the Batgirl including her I love Barbara, Cass, and Stephanie. But truth is none are Batman or even Robin who is under the mask most of the general audience won't care Wasp is equally if not bigger in comics lore and no one in the general audience cares they have Hope Van Dyne as Wasp. IMO Oracle/Babs and Batgirl/Cass or even Steph would work as just having Babs as Batgirl would this is like who should be Green Lantern the general audience doesn't care only we do.

----------


## Badou

People really like to romanticize Oracle's importance in the DCU before the New 52. She was a supporting character in some stories and was getting stagnant because she wasn't growing or progressing anymore. It is nowhere near the level of what Batgirl is. As Batgirl she became a leading character that got her own stories and headlined her own book. Oracle was never getting this. It is the reason why Cass fans are so desperate for her to be Batgirl again because they know that Batgirl is "the brand" and the identity that will get the attention and focus.

----------


## Johnny

> There's honestly nothing special about Barbara as Batgirl. Before she was confined to a wheelchair(where she belongs, tbh), no one gave a crap about her. She doesn't have a definitive run as Batgirl. Her Year One was solid but that's it. This isn't debatable for me. All i see is a 'white girl in a superhero costume' 
> 
> Come back when you have things that are unique for Gordon as Batgirl.


No one gave a crap about her? I wasn't aware that you were speaking for someone other than yourself here. I'm still not quite sure what's so much more "special" about having Cassandra, or Stephanie for that matter, as Batgirl, as opposed to Barbara. Why do these characters "need" to be Batgirl more than she does? And like I mentioned, I'm not against seeing the character becoming Oracle, I just don't see the need to introduce her as Oracle.

----------


## Jokerz79

> People really like to romanticize Oracle's importance in the DCU before the New 52. She was a supporting character in some stories and was getting stagnant because she wasn't growing or progressing anymore. It is nowhere near the level of what Batgirl is. As Batgirl she became a leading character that got her own stories and headlined her own book. Oracle was never getting this. It is the reason why Cass fans are so desperate for her to be Batgirl again because they know that Batgirl is "the brand" and the identity that will get the attention and focus.


I agree Oracle would probably never gotten a series outside her own miniseries but the character was far from stagnant. As Oracle she was a person many in the DCU from the Bat Family, Birds of Prey, Titans, and Justice League had turned to for information while Batgirl is just another bat vigilante in the shadow of Batman who is the Brand.

----------


## Confuzzled

> People really like to romanticize Oracle's importance in the DCU before the New 52.


She was the League's master hacker and chief informer. How's that "romanticizing" anything? Once the New 52 put her back in the tights, Cyborg rapidly started being shoehorned into that role.




> It is the reason why Cass fans are so desperate for her to be Batgirl again because they know that Batgirl is "the brand" and the identity that will get the attention and focus.


Cass and Steph literally bolster Barbara's significance as she actually gets to have a legacy through them.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Something like that could be made to work, I suppose. *I still think Oracle could be a great inspiration for differently abled viewers, though.*
> 
> Oh, and we REALLY need to stop using Oracle's popularity within the comic book fanbase as a metric to judge the role's worth. *If it hasn't been made clear by now that we're a very small limited group* when compared to the larger moviegoing audience, I don't know how much more evidence we need.


First bolded part I think solves the issue of the second bolded part when it comes to Oracle's popularity reaching beyond the hardcore fanbase. I also think she will really connect with PTSD/trauma/sexual assault survivors in addition to differently abled individuals. A young woman in glasses and a wheelchair is powerful imagery in a superhero context because it is so rare in the genre.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> People really like to romanticize Oracle's importance in the DCU before the New 52. She was a supporting character in some stories and was getting stagnant because she wasn't growing or progressing anymore. It is nowhere near the level of what Batgirl is. As Batgirl she became a leading character that got her own stories and headlined her own book. Oracle was never getting this. It is the reason why Cass fans are so desperate for her to be Batgirl again because they know that Batgirl is "the brand" and the identity that will get the attention and focus.


Yeah, Batgirl trumps Oracle pretty easily as a lure to spend your money. I don't think any argument to the contrary would be convincing, either.

----------


## Armor of God

> She was the League's master hacker and chief informer. How's that "romanticizing" anything? Once the New 52 put her back in the tights, Cyborg rapidly started being shoehorned into that role.
> 
> 
> 
> Cass and Steph literally bolster Barbara's significance as she actually gets to have a legacy through them.


How many JL stories were actually Oracle centric? I cant even remember. Cyborg pretty much illustrates why those characteristics are meaningless. Batman can spy, hack and provide info. Basing your character on such flimsy themes is completely unsustainable. Its the James Tynion model of characterization where you're only as relevant as a trait or power.

----------


## Badou

> I agree Oracle would probably never gotten a series outside her own miniseries but the character was far from stagnant. As Oracle she was a person many in the DCU from the Bat Family, Birds of Prey, Titans, and Justice League had turned to for information while Batgirl is just another bat vigilante in the shadow of Batman who is the Brand.


She was a supporting character that at best played small roles in stories that were mostly focused on other characters, like in Batman INC or Black Mirror. It had been years since she had any major development as a character and was being used to prop up other characters' stories when she was used. Trying to argue that Babs is better off as Oracle is complete nonsense. The only reason people want her as Oracle is because it frees up the Batgirl identity and Batgirl book so Cass or Steph can get them and get all the attention and focus that comes with having that identity. 




> She was the League's master hacker and chief informer. How's that "romanticizing" anything? Once the New 52 put her back in the tights, Cyborg rapidly started being shoehorned into that role.


Then what major league story was she critically involved in before the New 52? What was Oracle's last major development as a character that saw her headline some book or story that wasn't just in service to others? It is romanticizing her character as Oracle because people want to act like as Oracle pre New 52 she was this major focus that DC poured all this attention towards and it was all amazing when that just wasn't the case. She was a side or supporting character as Oracle in stories that were built around characters who were in tights. Like it or not but as Batgirl again she has gotten more focus and attention than she could have ever hoped to get as Oracle. 




> Cass and Steph literally bolster Barbara's significance as she actually gets to have a legacy through them.


That is only true if Oracle was on the same level as Batgirl. It is far from that. It isn't even on the same level as what Nightwing is to Robin. It probably isn't even on the same level as what Red Robin is to Robin and you know Tim fans would kill at the chance for him to be the main Robin again. Trying to ague that Babs is better off as Oracle than Batgirl is just not true because it is a step down for her across the board. Being Oracle again only benefits whoever becomes the new Batgirl.

----------


## Carabas

> She was a supporting character that at best played small roles in stories that were mostly focused on other characters, like in Batman INC or Black Mirror. It had been years since she had any major development as a character and was being used to prop up other characters' stories when she was used. Trying to argue that Babs is better off as Oracle is complete nonsense. The only reason people want her as Oracle is because it frees up the Batgirl identity and Batgirl book so Cass or Steph can get them and get all the attention and focus that comes with having that identity.


Oracle was popular long before there were other Batgirls.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Babs as Oracle is fine 
Babs as Batgirl is fine 
Oracle is only ever a supporting character so there's a knock there 
Batgirl is more of a star by herself but neither are probably showing up in this movie to begin with so its pointless to argue 

She can't be both but I'm glad we are getting Cass as Batgirl in the DCEU that's a much more dare I say important choice than to ape the same boring uninteresting lineup of the classic bop

If we get the new Huntress, Renee Montoya and Cass Cain that's an actual organic diverse team assembled without the need of race swapping and only really at fault for not being a real BOP lineup

I'm assuming Shiva will be the villain since she's never shown up in live action yet

----------


## Carabas

> Oracle is only ever a supporting character...


Have the people who keep saying this ever read Birds Of Prey?

----------


## Johnny

> She can't be both but I'm glad we are getting Cass as Batgirl in the DCEU that's a much more dare I say important choice than to ape the same boring uninteresting lineup of the classic bop


Except the article never mentions the name "Batgirl", only "Cassandra Cain". May or may not tell us something if the character would actually be Batgirl here. I guess we have to wait for the trades. They would probably clarify it better.

----------


## Armor of God

> Have the people who keep saying this ever read Birds Of Prey?


Do you realize that Oracle has been sidelined from the BOP film?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Grace Randolph with some interesting Henry Cavill, MoS 2 news. Not all rainbows and sunshine, I'm afraid.

----------


## Agent Z

Edited post.

----------


## Carabas

> Do you realize that Oracle has been sidelined from the BOP film?


How is that relevant to the comics?

----------


## Armor of God

How are comics relevant to this discussion?

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Have the people who keep saying this ever read Birds Of Prey?


Apparently not.

----------


## Armor of God

Read every single issue actually.

----------


## Carabas

> Read every single issue actually.


Then you have an odd definition of 'supporting character'.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Have the people who keep saying this ever read Birds Of Prey?


Her role on the BOP is to provide support and intel to those in the field.
The minute she gets off her computer and goes out in the field with Canary and Huntress she won't be labeled as such

Felicity is a main character on Arrow but she is by definition a supporting character to Team Arrow

----------


## Frontier

For what it's worth, I'm as much a fan of Babs as Batgirl as I am her as Oracle. 



> I will hold on to my theory that Cass is there to sort of "compensate" for Barbara not being in the movie due to the standalone Batgirl feature. And if Cass is indeed 11 years old here, I don't see them making an underage girl the main Batgirl character of the DCEU. It's like skipping over Dick Grayson to bring in Damian instead.


I mean, assuming chronoligcally she'll end up being the second DCEU Batgirl (if Babs has retired), then it would be kind of like people expecting the DCEU Robin to end up being Damian. 



> People really like to romanticize Oracle's importance in the DCU before the New 52. She was a supporting character in some stories and was getting stagnant because she wasn't growing or progressing anymore. It is nowhere near the level of what Batgirl is. As Batgirl she became a leading character that got her own stories and headlined her own book. Oracle was never getting this. It is the reason why Cass fans are so desperate for her to be Batgirl again because they know that Batgirl is "the brand" and the identity that will get the attention and focus.


She was a supporting character in everything but _Birds of Prey,_ where her development and focus was pretty much the crux of the book, and Oracle was the backbone of the Batfamily in a way she hasn't been as Batgirl since they put her back in a costume. 



> She was a supporting character that at best played small roles in stories that were mostly focused on other characters, like in Batman INC or Black Mirror. It had been years since she had any major development as a character and was being used to prop up other characters' stories when she was used. Trying to argue that Babs is better off as Oracle is complete nonsense. The only reason people want her as Oracle is because it frees up the Batgirl identity and Batgirl book so Cass or Steph can get them and get all the attention and focus that comes with having that identity.


She was basically the lead character of Birds of Prey, which was the primary Oracle book. 

I don't deny that there are fans who want her as Oracle because they prefer Cass and Steph, but I think it's also as true that there are probably fans who believe Barbara was more compelling and interesting, not to mention empowering, as Oracle. 



> Then what major league story was she critically involved in before the New 52? What was Oracle's last major development as a character that saw her headline some book or story that wasn't just in service to others? It is romanticizing her character as Oracle because people want to act like as Oracle pre New 52 she was this major focus that DC poured all this attention towards and it was all amazing when that just wasn't the case. She was a side or supporting character as Oracle in stories that were built around characters who were in tights. Like it or not but as Batgirl again she has gotten more focus and attention than she could have ever hoped to get as Oracle.


Didn't she help Morrison's League beat Prometheus? 

I'm pretty sure Simone's last official Birds of Prey story was Oracle-focused. 



> Being Oracle again only benefits whoever becomes the new Batgirl.


Or disabled women or people in need of strong representation. 



> She can't be both but I'm glad we are getting Cass as Batgirl in the DCEU that's a much more dare I say important choice than to ape the same boring uninteresting lineup of the classic bop


Well, we've got most of the classic BoP aside from Oracle and Lady Blackhawk.



> If we get the new Huntress, Renee Montoya and Cass Cain that's an actual organic diverse team assembled without the need of race swapping and only really at fault for not being a real BOP lineup


Yeah, I'm wondering if they're going to cast for someone who looks like New 52/Rebirth Helena Bertinelli, only she'll probably act and have a costume more like Post-Crisis Helena. 




> I'm assuming Shiva will be the villain since she's never shown up in live action yet


And, really, if we're going to do a movie with Black Canary and Cassandra Cain then the only villain I can see conceivably giving these ladies any trouble is Shiva. 



> Oh, DC wants their own X-23


Just trade in claws for martial arts  :Wink: .



> Felicity is a main character on Arrow but she is by definition a supporting character to Team Arrow


I dunno, I think they've made her hacking so vital and omni-present part of the team that I'd probably call her a major member of Team Arrow (on-top of the Original Team Arrow stuff or when she forces herself into things she shouldn't be involved in).

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

omg, people. Stop freaking out about Barbara Gordon. The same guy who wrote the Wrap article has already said she's in the movie, just not as Batgirl. You can piece that together.

----------


## Johnny

> I mean, assuming chronoligcally she'll end up being the second DCEU Batgirl (if Babs has retired), then it would be kind of like people expecting the DCEU Robin to end up being Damian.


Unless they decide to go the X-23 road, they will not make Batgirl an 11 year old kid, let alone in an R-rated movie.

----------


## kjn

> Also, she wasn't any "IT girl". She had a rich history and pathos behind her. The only reason her status quo changed was because Gail Simone wanted her to return to the Batgirl persona. A change that has impacted the BOP franchise for the worse IMO. Hopefully she appears as Oracle in the movie.


No, the decision to revert Babs to Batgirl was made by DC editorial as part of their New 52 reboot, before they asked Gail Simone to write the New 52 Batgirl title (see eg A conversation about Batgirl & Oracle).

Continuing on, I do think that Gail Simone managed to keep the experience that defined Oracle as part of her New 52 Batgirl, but that the writers following her have reverted Babs more and more a sassy and inexperienced person. She is no longer the person who could and did challenge Batman in his moral or personal choices.

Given the success of both _Wonder Woman_ and _Black Panther_ I don't get the sidelining of Oracle at all. Even if the figure isn't that well-known, _Oracle_ carries a gravitas as a character that is second to none among superhero figures, because DC fridged her twice, and she gives the opening to reach another new audience. But that requires her to not be some shadowy mentor figure. On the other hand, I believe that Oracle's story deserves to be told in its entirety, from Batgirl to a version of _The Killing Joke_ that is focused on Babs's perspective to her return as Oracle and the formation of _Birds of Prey_.

Also, at some times you have to toss money considerations aside in favour of doing the moral thing. And if DC announces a Oracle: Year One movie with say Ali Stroker as Oracle, I can't imagine the positive buzz they'd be getting.




> omg, people. Stop freaking out about Barbara Gordon. The same guy who wrote the Wrap article has already said she's in the movie, just not as Batgirl. You can piece that together.


Source?

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Unless they decide to go the X-23 road, they will not make Batgirl an 11 year old kid, let alone in an R-rated movie.


They describe Cass as a vigilante in the cast synopsis 
Doesn't really matter how old she is there will undoubtedly be comparisons to hit girl because of how young Cass is

I think we might just get a criminal/bad influence(Harley) meets random mute/stoic girl(Cass) and then the plot just goes from there

----------


## Johnny



----------


## Frontier

> 


Well, that's different  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Carabas

> Her role on the BOP is to provide support and intel to those in the field.


She gets as much or more panel time and character development than the other characters. There wouldn't even be anybody in the field without her.




> Felicity is a main character on Arrow but she is by definition a supporting character to Team Arrow.


Who gives a damn what she is on "Team Arrow". She's a main character on the show.

----------


## Johnny



----------


## Frontier

> 


Holy #@%@! Ocean Master! Manta! Vulko! The Trench  :Big Grin: !

The other Atlantean tribes look like they're going to be a visual spectacle  :Cool: .

----------


## Bossace

> 


I hope ocean maters and mantas helmet look really good on the big screen. My biggest fear is them looking very odd or cartoonish just because how dramatic the helmets are

----------


## Johnny

It's ironic how literally everything is ripped straight from the Geoff Johns New 52 run, except for the actual protagonist. Arthur Curry isn't supposed to look like a metal singer. I still can't get used to this design. Probably has more to do with the fact that I loathe the 90s Aquaman design, as opposed to hating the actual movie design itself.

----------


## Johnny

> Holy #@%@! Ocean Master! Manta! Vulko! The Trench !
> 
> The other Atlantean tribes look like they're going to be a visual spectacle .


You can see Topo's tentacles too.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Blind Wedjat

> 


My goodness. That looks freaking glorious. Ocean Master and Black Manta are my most anticipated elements of this movie, and they look fantastic! The Trench look frightening as well, and those Atlantean soldiers look cool as hell (wondering why they're blue like that). Vulko is looking badass.

This whole looks ripped out of the New 52 Aquaman run and boy am I loving. Well, except for Aquaman himself. They need to fix that.

The trailer can't come soon enough.

----------


## Broddie

If Topo is in it does that mean Storm isn't too far behind?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Ho-lee........WOW!

Yeah, this battle for December supremacy has not even BEGUN!

Yep. Just about everything looks like it's from the New 52, and this is just about the only scenario in which that's a good thing. Aquaman was just about the only DC property that was really improved by the New 52.

----------


## El_Gato

> Unless they decide to go the X-23 road, they will not make Batgirl an 11 year old kid, let alone in an R-rated movie.


That's the rumored route they're going with Cass (X-23 route).

----------


## Johnny

> That's the rumored route they're going with Cass (X-23 route).


Well, they better not sweep Barbara under the rug or turn her into some supporting character like Marvel did with Hank Pym, regardless of what happens.

----------


## MosSuperman

That Aquaman  cover is the best I've seen from any DCEU movie.

----------


## Raijin

I'm really starting to dig Aquaman in jeans heh. I love when filmmakers don't feel the need to be slaves to the source material, like fanboys want them to be.

----------


## Robotman

> 


Wow! Our first look at the Trench! Pretty creepy. Shades of Aliens.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> It's ironic how literally everything is ripped straight from the Geoff Johns New 52 run, except for the actual protagonist. Arthur Curry isn't supposed to look like a metal singer. I still can't get used to this design. Probably has more to do with the fact that I loathe the 90s Aquaman design, as opposed to hating the actual movie design itself.


I'm loving everything so far BUT Aquaman himself. I'm not feeling this design their giving him. The leather pants look is tiresome. 

Anyway if this is successful I really want to see Aqualad and Tempest. I'm getting ahead of myself but so far everything looks perfecf.

----------


## Badou

> Oracle was popular long before there were other Batgirls.


Popular in what context? I'm not saying she wasn't liked by comic fans, but Batgirl is at a completely different level of popularity and exposure. Acting like she was at all close to what Batgirl is just isn't true. It is fine if you enjoyed her as Oracle but Oracle as a brand is nothing close to what Batgirl is. They weren't using Oracle in cartoons, there isn't any Oracle movie in the works, they weren't giving Oracle a solo book, and they weren't using Oracle in merchandise. 

People just need to be honest and say they want her to be Oracle again because they want Cass, or even Steph, to be Batgirl and receive all the exposure that comes with it. Pretending that they want her to be Oracle because it is the best thing for her just feels disingenuous to me. It's the same as saying you want Tim to be Red Robin because that is the best thing for him when everyone knows that he would be better served as being the main Robin again.

----------


## Godlike13

While I think that’s true for a lot of so called Oracle fans, I do not believe that’s true for Carabas in particular. I remember Carabas form the DC boards, or at least I think I do, and they have always seem pretty genuine in thier favor of Oracle. Not often is that the case IMO with others though.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I know this is a random thought, but given the world's news these last two days, and since the 2016 election, I really, really hope WB doesn't green light Superman: Red Son as a movie for the other universe anytime soon.

----------


## Johnny

I believe Bruce Timm once said if Batman: Gotham By Gaslight was successful, he wanted the next Elseworlds animated film to be Red Son. I would personally love to see that, since I like the story and I couldn't care less about what's going on between Trump and Putin. I'm sick to death of politics.

----------


## RepHope

> I believe Bruce Timm once said if Batman: Gotham By Gaslight was successful, he wanted the next Elseworlds animated film to be Red Son. I would personally love to see that, since I like the story and I couldn't care less about what's going on between Trump and Putin. I'm sick to death of politics.


Modern Timm directing Red Son? It would either be awful or a glorified Batman: Red Son Movie. Keep Timm away from Supes.

----------


## Frontier

> I hope ocean maters and mantas helmet look really good on the big screen. My biggest fear is them looking very odd or cartoonish just because how dramatic the helmets are


Manta's helm looks pretty awesome in my opinion.

Orm's took some getting used to, but I think I'm just adjusting to seeing Ocean Master's helmet in live-action. 



> It's ironic how literally everything is ripped straight from the Geoff Johns New 52 run, except for the actual protagonist. Arthur Curry isn't supposed to look like a metal singer. I still can't get used to this design. Probably has more to do with the fact that I loathe the 90s Aquaman design, as opposed to hating the actual movie design itself.


We know he's going to be sporting the classic suit at some point at least. 

I'm guessing they're not showing it in the initial promotional material to either hide the surprise of it being in the movie or to start showcasing Momoa in it closer to the premier (Kind of like how they handled Superman in _Justice League_). 



> You can see Topo's tentacles too.


Oh wow, I can't believe I didn't notice it. TOPO  :Big Grin: !!!



> If Topo is in it does that mean Storm isn't too far behind?


Maybe Stormie is who Aquaman or Mera ride into battle  :Smile: ?



> I believe Bruce Timm once said if Batman: Gotham By Gaslight was successful, he wanted the next Elseworlds animated film to be Red Son. I would personally love to see that, since I like the story and I couldn't care less about what's going on between Trump and Putin. I'm sick to death of politics.


There's been a lot of hints of a "fan-favorite" or "fan-demanded" adaption coming up next year. 

I think we might indeed see a _Red Son_ adaption soon. 



> Modern Timm directing Red Son? It would either be awful or a glorified Batman: Red Son Movie. Keep Timm away from Supes.


The quality of Timm's work depends a lot on who he's collaborating with.

If we get someone good to handle the screenplay and story, then I would be more comfortable with leaving it in Timm's hand.

----------


## Carabas

> Popular in what context?


The context of comic books.




> I'm not saying she wasn't liked by comic fans, but Batgirl is at a completely different level of popularity and exposure.


In tv shows and cartoons, sure. Comics? Not so much. They're pretty much equal. And Oracle probably has had way more exposure in the comics.




> It is fine if you enjoyed her as Oracle but Oracle as a brand is nothing close to what Batgirl is. They weren't using Oracle in cartoons, there isn't any Oracle movie in the works, they weren't giving Oracle a solo book, and they weren't using Oracle in merchandise.


Batman is the brand, not Batgirl.




> People just need to be honest and say they want her to be Oracle again because they want Cass, or even Steph, to be Batgirl...


I would want to her to be Oracle again even if there never had been or would be another Batgirl. I loved Oracle from the moment she showed up, and if you call me a liar again you're getting reported.
And while I also love Cassandra Cain, I loved Cass even before she became Batgirl, and would prefer if she didn't have any superhero identity.

----------


## Carabas

> While I think that’s true for a lot of so called Oracle fans, I do not believe that’s true for Carabas in particular. I remember Carabas form the DC boards, or at least I think I do, and they have always seem pretty genuine in thier favor of Oracle. Not often that case IMO with others though.


I posted there a lot, yes.

Where does the time go?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

If Cass is indeed 11 years old, I doubt they will have an 11 year old Batgirl. With them both running around in Rebirth while Babs is Batgirl, there is precedent for them still using Babs in the role and finding other things for Cass to do. Barbara could cameo in this film just as Barbara Gordon, the Commissioner's daughter.

I'd be very surprised if the possibility of Babs passing the role to Cass somewhere down the line isn't at least being discussed, however. 




> There's honestly nothing special about Barbara as Batgirl. Before she was confined to a wheelchair(where she belongs, tbh), no one gave a crap about her. She doesn't have a definitive run as Batgirl. Her Year One was solid but that's it. This isn't debatable for me. All i see is a 'white girl in a superhero costume' 
> 
> Come back when you have things that are unique for Gordon as Batgirl.


Babs's Batgirl was the first one to make it into other media, in two of the biggest Batman related things in existence: the Adam West show and B:TAS. And way more people saw those than have ever picked up a comic book, regardless of which Batgirl was starring in it. Cass has one definitive run, but it's old and she hasn't had much since then. 

You can probably thank BTAS for the resurgence in Batgirl popularity and prompting DC to give the identity another shot when they had another direction in mind with Cass. Cass would not likely exist if not for the presence of Barbara in that cartoon redeeming the Batgirl name and making it popular for a new generation of fans. 




> 


This looks fantastic. 




> It's ironic how literally everything is ripped straight from the Geoff Johns New 52 run, except for the actual protagonist. Arthur Curry isn't supposed to look like a metal singer. I still can't get used to this design. Probably has more to do with the fact that I loathe the 90s Aquaman design, as opposed to hating the actual movie design itself.


I have no interest in anything related to Peter David's 90s Aquaman either. But I can roll with this because it's Jason Momoa, and he's awesome. 

I honestly wonder if him resembling the 90s Aquaman is just a happy coincidence. They may have just wanted Momoa period and may not have deliberately cast someone with long hair with 90s Arthur in mind.

----------


## Johnny

> I have no interest in anything related to Peter David's 90s Aquaman either. But I can roll with this because it's Jason Momoa, and he's awesome. 
> 
> I honestly wonder if him resembling the 90s Aquaman is just a happy coincidence. They may have just wanted Momoa period and may not have deliberately cast someone with long hair with 90s Arthur in mind.


That's what I think too. As far as I'm aware, there was no casting auditions for Aquaman. Momoa said during last year's SDCC that Snyder personally offered him the role. I think only Henry, Gal and probably Ray auditioned for their parts. Affleck, Ezra and Momoa were all Snyder's first choices for their characters, at least as far as I know. Still makes me wonder who he would've cast as Hal had WB not decided to exclude him from the line-up.

----------


## Styles

DCEU Batman & Superman Easter Eggs Spotted In New Shazam! Image

----------


## BatmanJones

> People just need to be honest and say they want her to be Oracle again because they want Cass, or even Steph, to be Batgirl and receive all the exposure that comes with it. Pretending that they want her to be Oracle because it is the best thing for her just feels disingenuous to me. It's the same as saying you want Tim to be Red Robin because that is the best thing for him when everyone knows that he would be better served as being the main Robin again.


Um, what???

Barbara Gordon is one of my top characters of all time but I'm also disabled and when they took that away from her, when they took away what she'd built as Oracle, it was a slap in the face of disabled readers everywhere.

I like the other characters but I liked Babs best as Batgirl. And Yvonne Craig was my first TV crush. I don't NOT want Barbara Gordon to be Batgirl. I want her TO be Oracle because it represents a lot of growth on her part as a character, it made her the center of the DCU, and it gave disabled readers _some_ representation.

I honestly find it appalling that they retconned that and think that they wouldn't even think of doing it today. It's patently insulting to a huge number of fans.

----------


## Frontier

> DCEU Batman & Superman Easter Eggs Spotted In New ‘Shazam!’ Image


So: 

- "Superman is Back" Daily Planet article.

- DCEU Batman toy. 

- DCEU Batarang. 

- A TIME article on Zod's attack. 

Yeah, this is definitely in the DCEU  :Smile: .

----------


## Serpico Jones

Justin Kroll and El Mayimbe are hinting on twitter that the Penguin has been officially chosen as the villain for Matt Reeves’ Batman.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Babs's Batgirl was the first one to make it into other media, in two of the biggest Batman related things in existence: the Adam West show and B:TAS. And way more people saw those than have ever picked up a comic book, regardless of which Batgirl was starring in it.* Cass has one definitive run, but it's old and she hasn't had much since then.* 
> .


Gee WHO RUINED HER????

Who said she was pitch toxic?

Who edited her out of books?

The same group of folks who are public enemy number one of Wally West, Tim Drake, Tim's generation, Milestone, John Stewart, Stephanie Brown & Titans fans. Because the crap they toss out in praise is RARELY reflected in what is produced.

And who cares who saw those two shows-where was this long running Babs Gordon comic book? Oh that's right it took MS CAIN proving a book called Batgirl could SALE. Just like Tim Drake did with Robin.

So lets give credit where credit is required.

Just like Babs as Oracle-who proved you don't need legs to fight evil. Who for MANY was the introduction to her.

She only got her Batgirl title because HIGHER UPS do what they do best TAKE OUT the competition for their pets. And I say that as someone who ENJOYED her Burnside run.





> Oracle as a brand is nothing close to what Batgirl is. They weren't using Oracle in cartoons, there isn't any Oracle movie in the works, they weren't giving Oracle a solo book, and they weren't using Oracle in merchandise.


Oracle used in tv shows

Birds of Prey
Beware the Batman

She DOES have 2 action figure.

She did get a mini starring HER- Oracle: The Cure

A colead with Nightwing-Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle

A One shot with her in the lead -Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Oracle

She also had a story in DC Showcase 94

She was in 3 video games

So roles in 2 tv shows, at least 2 solo issues and merchandise. She might not be close to Batgirl brand but never let it be said DC didn't use her outside of comics. Because LOL they DID.

----------


## Godlike13

> Um, what???
> 
> Barbara Gordon is one of my top characters of all time but I'm also disabled and when they took that away from her, when they took away what she'd built as Oracle, it was a slap in the face of disabled readers everywhere.
> 
> I like the other characters but I liked Babs best as Batgirl. And Yvonne Craig was my first TV crush. I don't NOT want Barbara Gordon to be Batgirl. I want her TO be Oracle because it represents a lot of growth on her part as a character, it made her the center of the DCU, and it gave disabled readers _some_ representation.
> 
> I honestly find it appalling that they retconned that and think that they wouldn't even think of doing it today. It's patently insulting to a huge number of fans.


Haley Quinn is leading the BoP movie, and you don’t think they wouldn’t think of doing it today. Sure...

----------


## MosSuperman

> So: 
> 
> - "Superman is Back" Daily Planet article.
> 
> - DCEU Batman toy. 
> 
> - DCEU Batarang. 
> 
> - A TIME article on Zod's attack. 
> ...


Someone on Twitter said he's wearing an Aquaman shirt.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Um, what???
> 
> Barbara Gordon is one of my top characters of all time but I'm also disabled and when they took that away from her, when they took away what she'd built as Oracle, it was a slap in the face of disabled readers everywhere.
> 
> I like the other characters but I liked Babs best as Batgirl. And Yvonne Craig was my first TV crush. I don't NOT want Barbara Gordon to be Batgirl. I want her TO be Oracle because it represents a lot of growth on her part as a character, it made her the center of the DCU, and it gave disabled readers _some_ representation.
> 
> I honestly find it appalling that they retconned that and think that they wouldn't even think of doing it today. It's patently insulting to a huge number of fans.


This. Barbara is my favorite DC heroine and while I love her as Batgirl, Oracle was a whole other world of groundbreaking.



Babs being Oracle freeing up the Batgirl mantle for a character of color like Cassandra is just an added bonus.

----------


## Carabas

> She did get a mini starring HER- Oracle: The Cure.


That had originally been planned as her getting her legs and her cape&cowl back, before DC decided at the eleventh hour to keep Oracle and go with Steph instead for their new Batgirl book. They had been setting Babs no longer being Oracle for ages in Birds Of Prey, pretty much as soon as Gail Simone left.

----------


## Carabas

> Um, what???
> 
> Barbara Gordon is one of my top characters of all time but I'm also disabled and when they took that away from her, when they took away what she'd built as Oracle, it was a slap in the face of disabled readers everywhere.
> 
> I like the other characters but I liked Babs best as Batgirl. And Yvonne Craig was my first TV crush. I don't NOT want Barbara Gordon to be Batgirl. I want her TO be Oracle because it represents a lot of growth on her part as a character, it made her the center of the DCU, and it gave disabled readers _some_ representation.
> 
> I honestly find it appalling that they retconned that and think that they wouldn't even think of doing it today. It's patently insulting to a huge number of fans.


Amen to that.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Gee WHO RUINED HER????
> 
> Who said she was pitch toxic?
> 
> Who edited her out of books?


DC did. But they took her out of the game long enough that the damage was done, and she wasn't around to get new fans. A character isn't taken off the table for that long and maintains success. It sucks, but that's how it is.

A good movie appearance can change all that drastically, however. Or not on the comics front, because the best they can do for Wonder Woman is give her the long lost brother nobody asked for. 





> And who cares who saw those two shows-where was this long running Babs Gordon comic book? Oh that's right it took MS CAIN proving a book called Batgirl could SALE. Just like Tim Drake did with Robin.


People care about the TV shows because they are a bigger deal than comics. People watch more TV than they do comics. it doesn't matter who sustained the ongoing comic first, Dick and Babas are associated with the Robin and Batgirl roles more than others because they are bigger than comics. Had they gotten solos in the those roles in that timeframe (when the Bat-brand became enormous and could sustain multiple spinoffs) they would probably do well. 




> So lets give credit where credit is required.


Nobody wants to give credit to Barbara as Batgirl, and dismiss her as just a librarian who sucks at fighting and was worthless until she became Oracle, and ignore the fact that Barbara's successful foray into other media played a big part in getting DC to try out Batgirl again with Cass.

Cass/Oracle fans shouldn't be surprised if some snark gets aimed back at them. And I'd be fine with Babs becoming Oracle at some point in the DCEU and passing the mantle to Cass. 





> Oracle used in tv shows
> 
> Birds of Prey
> Beware the Batman


Neither of those shows have great reputations, nor lasted very long. Doesn't mean a movie can't be great though. 





> She was in 3 video games


How big a role did she have in those video games? She was a voice in Batman's ear that provided exposition. Some people found her wicked annoying even. Meanwhile, she got a DLC as Batgirl.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> It's ironic how literally everything is ripped straight from the Geoff Johns New 52 run, except for the actual protagonist. Arthur Curry isn't supposed to look like a metal singer. I still can't get used to this design. Probably has more to do with the fact that I loathe the 90s Aquaman design, as opposed to hating the actual movie design itself.


In all honesty, though, aside from design aesthetics, New 52 Aquaman more or less tracked with the decades of Aquaman lore from before the New 52. The biggest difference was a new origin for the Aquaman/Black Manta rivalry. Atlanna was always Arthur's mother, Tom Curry was always his father, Orm has always been his evil half brother, etc. So, I don't really get why people are saying that the movie is ripped from New 52. Yeah, Orm's evil and Atlanna and Tom are his parents. It has ALWAYS been that way...

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> People care about the TV shows because they are a bigger deal than comics. People watch more TV than they do comics.


It's really not close, either. If the average person references something regarding a superhero, it's almost always from something on film.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

omg. we're still arguing about Barbara Gordon.

----------


## Johnny

She's worth arguing for.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Confuzzled

> Nobody wants to give credit to Barbara as Batgirl,


Really, NOBODY? 




> and dismiss her as just a librarian who sucks at fighting and was worthless until she became Oracle...


Mostly casuals and you can thank the _Batman and Robin_ film for that. The increasingly tacky latter portrayals of her in the Timmverse didn't help either.




> and ignore the fact that Barbara's successful foray into other media played a big part in getting DC to try out Batgirl again with Cass.


I mean, they needed more girls to watch the cartoons and Batgirl is the most obvious choice being Batman's female distaff. And since Barbara was more successful than Bette, it had to be her.

Regarding her success, let's be honest. A big part of her appeal has always been that she is the daughter of Commissioner Gordon, the closest thing Gotham has to an "everyman hero". This has been true right from the 60's show. She's an extension of him who's actually participating in the costumed vigilantism, the very thing that he cannot do himself. And Batman's acceptance of her is in proxy Batman's acceptance of Gordon into his inner world without actually having to reveal his identity to him.

Gordon's own popularity propping up Barbara is an advantage Cass, Steph or any other subsequent Batgirl will never have. _Batman and Robin_ kind of understood this by knowing she had to be related to a beloved long-appearing male character, but Alfred is already part of Batman and Robin's inner world so it doesn't have the vicarious thrill and joy of a Gordon being inducted into that world.

The fact that Cassandra didn't have that aspect going for her and still led such a long-running successful book (post-90's implosion) is nothing short of impressive.

----------


## ironman2978

Here's the SHAZAM! Feature from EW:

----------


## ironman2978

Part 2:

----------


## Slim Shady

> In all honesty, though, aside from design aesthetics, New 52 Aquaman more or less tracked with the decades of Aquaman lore from before the New 52. The biggest difference was a new origin for the Aquaman/Black Manta rivalry. Atlanna was always Arthur's mother, Tom Curry was always his father, Orm has always been his evil half brother, etc. So, I don't really get why people are saying that the movie is ripped from New 52. Yeah, Orm's evil and Atlanna and Tom are his parents. It has ALWAYS been that way...


Im fine even if it is primarily based on the new52 stuff. That was a great run and did a lot for the character.

----------


## Jokerz79

Aquaman so far looks fantastic Shazam I'll liking I just hope it looks better on screen this pics the "muscles" are my only issue.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Aquaman is looking awesome and if Shazam plays its cards right, it could actually be the movie that out-Marvel's Marvel!

----------


## MosSuperman

Posted in the Aquaman thread.

ap22s9nadqa11.jpg

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Really, NOBODY?


C'mon, it was obvious hyperbole. Maybe I should have worded it better, but then again, so should those who say "*Nobody* gave a shit about her before she was Oracle. Batgirl was worthless"




> Mostly casuals and you can thank the _Batman and Robin_ film for that. The increasingly tacky latter portrayals of her in the Timmverse didn't help either.


The people dismissing her in this thread and elsewhere online are certainly not casuals if they are aware of the multiple Batgirl situation. And if they are referencing her as a librarian, which she wasn't in either the film or DCAU, they are referencing her comic book self. 

I never found her portrayals in the Timmverse increasingly tacky. The Bruce/Babs romance was awful, but that was referenced in Batman Beyond, not while she was Batgirl. And Commissioner Barbara Gordon, aside from being forced to drop that shitty little tidbit, was awesome. 






> I mean, they needed more girls to watch the cartoons and Batgirl is the most obvious choice being Batman's female distaff. And since Barbara was more successful than Bette, it had to be her.


Yes, so? The end result is she still got put our there before a wider audience and took off. The reasons behind it are irrelevant. Every character in this property is a marketing gimmick aimed at children, she is no different. Robin was brought in to appeal to young kids. 




> *Regarding her success, let's be honest. A big part of her appeal has always been that she is the daughter of Commissioner Gordon, the closest thing Gotham has to an "everyman hero". This has been true right from the 60's show.* She's an extension of him who's actually participating in the costumed vigilantism, the very thing that he cannot do himself. And Batman's acceptance of her is in proxy Batman's acceptance of Gordon into his inner world without actually having to reveal his identity to him.
> 
> Gordon's own popularity propping up Barbara is an advantage Cass, Steph or any other subsequent Batgirl will never have. _Batman and Robin_ kind of understood this by knowing she had to be related to a beloved long-appearing male character, but Alfred is already part of Batman and Robin's inner world so it doesn't have the vicarious thrill and joy of a Gordon being inducted into that world..


All of these points are true. Nobody is denying her connection to Gordon playing a big part of her success. But what is the point of bringing it up exactly? She's a supporting spin-off character, so a strong connection to either Batman himself or someone in his inner circle is kind of a given. 

This is like saying "She wouldn't be the most popular/iconic Batgirl if she didn't have x, y and z going for her." Which is too bad, because she does. The fans of the others don't have to like it, but it's reality.

It doesn't always have to stay that way, though. Cass is one movie away from being a competitor, but we still don't have any concrete evidence of how this will go.

----------


## Jokerz79

> C'mon, it was obvious hyperbole. Maybe I should have worded it better, but then again, so should those who say "*Nobody* gave a shit about her before she was Oracle. Batgirl was worthless"
> 
> 
> 
> The people dismissing her in this thread and elsewhere online are certainly not casuals if they are aware of the multiple Batgirl situation. And if they are referencing her as a librarian, which she wasn't in either the film or DCAU, they are referencing her comic book self. 
> 
> I never found her portrayals in the Timmverse increasingly tacky. The Bruce/Babs romance was awful, but that was referenced in Batman Beyond, not while she was Batgirl. And Commissioner Barbara Gordon, aside from being forced to drop that shitty little tidbit, was awesome. 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll deny it and go as far as to say Barbara helped "prop" Jim Gordon. Gordon and Batman didn't have the relationship they now have in the Golden and Silver Age of comics Gordon was your basic head cop he was very much there to aide Batman and disappear. Then came Barbara and we got a view into his personal life and he expanded as a character. Gordon had two sons in Tony and James Jr. neither became popular because they weren't running around in a Bat Costume fighting crime that's what made Barbara popular and Cass and Barbara grew so popular even out of the cowl she continued on as Oracle as Cass also remained popular even when not Batgirl. 

This all comes down to who do comic fans prefer as Batgirl and if they like Barbara as Oracle or Batgirl and that argument is an eternal case of a dog chasing it's tail. As for the General Public they won't care who is Batgirl Barbara or Cass just like they don't care who Green Lantern will be.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> She's worth arguing for.


I personally don't care which Batgirl we get, since I will be buying a ticket, regardless. The only thing I would like to see more often here is "I want (name of superhero) to be (the poster's' most-liked character wearing that costume) because he/she is my favorite!" That's it. Nothing about the others being boring or being better suited as something else. Now I know it may seem to be more difficult to persuade others to join your character's bandwagon this way, but I don't think the current process does the trick by igniting these silly Internet wars, either. Oh, before anybody says "That's not me!" here, I'm talking about the other 90-95% of course, not you.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> In all honesty, though, aside from design aesthetics, New 52 Aquaman more or less tracked with the decades of Aquaman lore from before the New 52. The biggest difference was a new origin for the Aquaman/Black Manta rivalry. Atlanna was always Arthur's mother, Tom Curry was always his father, Orm has always been his evil half brother, etc. So, I don't really get why people are saying that the movie is ripped from New 52. Yeah, Orm's evil and Atlanna and Tom are his parents. It has ALWAYS been that way...


Well, Tom Curry wasn't always his father. 

Let's not forget about the whole "Orin" thing...



> Part 2:


Sivana getting rejected by the Wizard sounds Black Adam-ish. 



> Posted in the Aquaman thread.
> 
> Attachment 68381


I think the only real addition to the suit is that thing armor piece on the belt that's protruding on his leg.

----------


## Robotman

> Part 2:


Not a huge fan of Sivana having been rejected by The Wizard as his motivation for being a villain. But I guess its no worse than him being turned away by business associates and then subsequently traveling to Venus to plot his revenge. I know that in the New 52 story he wanted to gain access to magical powers through science. It was an interesting twist. I still prefer him as the ultimate comic booky mad scientist.

----------


## Frontier

> Not a huge fan of Sivana having been rejected by The Wizard as his motivation for being a villain. But I guess it’s no worse than him being turned away by business associates and then subsequently traveling to Venus to plot his revenge. I know that in the New 52 story he wanted to gain access to magical powers through science. It was an interesting twist. I still prefer him as the ultimate comic booky mad scientist.


I think ultimately a lot of Sivana's role in this movie is to accommodate for them not being able to use Black Adam.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Last Son of Krypton

'Joker' Origin Movie Lands Fall 2019 Release Date: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...e-date-1128203

----------


## Frontier

Better look at Ocean Master's design from a figure:

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> 'Joker' Origin Movie Lands Fall 2019 Release Date: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...e-date-1128203


I just don't understand why were getting this movie.

----------


## Johnny

Well, Leto's Joker sucks, so Phoenix could do a better job. Even though obviously it wasn't Leto's fault that his Joker sucked.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I just don't understand why were getting this movie.


This is a monkey paw for me I like everything about it except the story  :Big Grin:  Joker is like Michael Myers to me with origin less is more.

----------


## El_Gato

> 'Joker' Origin Movie Lands Fall 2019 Release Date: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...e-date-1128203


Hopefully we also get a DCEU film in the summer. Maybe Batman? Or Suicide Squad 2

----------


## Robotman

> I just don't understand why were getting this movie.


Similar situation to Solo. The movie nobody asked for. 

I think most fans love the fact that Joker doesn’t have a definitive origin. The Dark Knight nailed it. He’s just the Joker. 

It’s probably why Johns is doing the 3 Jokers storyline. It allows for different origins. He’s trying to keep the mystery and let Hollywood have their origin movie.




> 


Man, I was not excited at all for the Aquaman movie a few months ago but after the official images and concept art, I’m so stoked! Seeing him in the classic costume just makes me more giddy. Just wish they would have more emphasis on the blonde highlights in his hair. It went along with the classic Aquaman and the surfer vibe that Mamoa brings.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I just don't understand why were getting this movie.


Because he's popular?

----------


## Colossus1980

> Similar situation to Solo. The movie nobody asked for.


Plus side it will be a cheap film to make compared to other comic book movies.  I'm very curious what the general reaction will be by the general audience seeing two different versions of the Joker onscreen close to each other in terms of release.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Similar situation to Solo. The movie nobody asked for.


That's what I'm thinking. Won't be surprised if the box office fails to meet expectations.




> Because he's popular?


If that's the case where is Batman and Flash's movie? Those two would bring in more seats than Joker.

----------


## Frontier

I'll be curious to see how they talk about this movie at SDCC, assuming it gets brought up.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Im fine even if it is primarily based on the new52 stuff. That was a great run and did a lot for the character.


Yeah, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making was that a lot of the elements that people point to as being "straight from the New 52" actually didn't come from the New 52...




> Well, Tom Curry wasn't always his father. 
> 
> Let's not forget about the whole "Orin" thing...


He was Pre-Crisis. And in Post-Crisis, he was Aquaman's adoptive father, and even named him Arthur. Though, post-Infinite Crisis, they changed the origin back to his Silver Age origin and Tom Curry was once again his biological father. Anyway, the point is that Tom Curry being Arthur's father is definitely not something that *originated* in the New 52.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Similar situation to Solo. The movie nobody asked for.


The big difference being Joker is reported to have a budget of a mere 55M while Solo had a budget of 275M! So unlike Solo, Joker is basically flop-proof.

Now hopefully the film itself is any good. Though Joaquin Phoenix is known for always picking quality so it bodes well.

----------


## byrd156

> The big difference being Joker is reported to have a budget of a mere 55M while Solo had a budget of 275M! So unlike Solo, Joker is basically flop-proof.
> 
> Now hopefully the film itself is any good. Though Joaquin Phoenix is known for always picking quality so it bodes well.


I have no doubt that the Joker movie will be good. Solid team behind and in front of the camera. I know it will look good and will have great acting my big question is story and style.

----------


## Confuzzled

> That's what I'm thinking. Won't be surprised if the box office fails to meet expectations.


Read the article. The budget's reported to be just 55M. There aren't any high expectations box office wise. I suspect with that release date they are trying to appeal to the awards crowd here.





> If that's the case where is Batman and Flash's movie? Those two would bring in more seats than Joker.


Well, people would go mad if WB made a Batman or Flash movie on a 55M budget (though you _could_ make an excellent Batfilm on that budget but I digress).

----------


## FBarnhill

> Oh, DC wants their own X-23


Isnt Damian DCs X-23? Why not wait for Ben to be old enough for DC to do their own Logan?

----------


## Carabas

> Similar situation to Solo. The movie nobody asked for.


Are... are there movies that people do ask for?
Who asked for a Titanic movie or a remake of A Man Called Horse with giant blue aliens in the role of natives.

----------


## Agent Z

> Are... are there movies that people do ask for?
> Who asked for a Titanic movie or a remake of A Man Called Horse with giant blue aliens in the role of natives.


In fairness, there are some movies people ask for like WW but you're right that a movie doesn't need to be "asked for" to be a hit.

----------


## Confuzzled

> In fairness, there are some movies people ask for like WW but you're right that a movie doesn't need to be "asked for" to be a hit.


_Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle_ being the biggest example of an unasked for film becoming an unexpected smash hit.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Are... are there movies that people do ask for?
> Who asked for a Titanic movie or a remake of A Man Called Horse with giant blue aliens in the role of natives.


I think with the DCEU and Star Wars people mean there are films like MOS 2 or Obi-Wan that fans have been asking for and the studios green lights a film almost no one was asking for. The flip side is if it's like GOTG and it works you get called a risk taker and bold so we'll have to wait and see which a Joker origin is called.

Also no matter the response in the end it is a cheap film in relation to a studio film so it's unlikely Joker will lose money even a moderate success would be a big win so it's a smart move financially.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Also no matter the response in the end it is a cheap film in relation to a studio film so it's unlikely Joker will lose money even a moderate success would be a big win so it's a smart move financially.


Exactly. A relatively cheap film with the most popular supervillain of them all will guarantee success for WB.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I just don't understand why were getting this movie.


Because he's one of the world's most recognizable fictional characters, and you can get away with producing a movie about him for what comparatively amounts to peanuts? The one thing that speaks against it from WB's point of view is that they're already having an image problem with being seen as too dark and morbid.

----------


## Arsenal

> Because he's one of the world's most recognizable fictional characters, and you can get away with producing a movie about him for what comparatively amounts to peanuts? The one thing that speaks against it from WB's point of view is that they're already having an image problem with being seen as too dark and morbid.


That might be true, but I'm not sure how interested people will be in seeing a Joker film without the Bat involved.

----------


## gbshabo

> I have no doubt that the Joker movie will be good. Solid team behind and in front of the camera. I know it will look good and will have great acting my big question is story and style.


Agreed. This movie has critical success written all over it, and DC needs some of that right now!

----------


## Carabas

> Agreed. This movie has critical success written all over it...


How do you figure? Barely anything is known about it, and what we do know isn't that inspiring.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Anything with Joker's name brand on it makes money 
It only makes sense that a movie about the Joker would make even more money

----------


## Colossus1980

WB should consider doing origin movies for all of their top tier villains.  Luthor, Darkseid, The Riddler, Zoom, all potential moneymakers.  Be different, go the villain route as franchise starters.

----------


## TheSupernaut

The Snyder Cut is dead. Bury it.

----------


## Carabas

> Anything with Joker's name brand on it makes money


Not too long ago this is what was said about Star Wars.

----------


## Agent Z

> The Snyder Cut is dead. Bury it.


What's this got to do with anything?

----------


## TheSupernaut

> What's this got to do with anything?


Henry Cavills latest comments on the subject.

----------


## Thomas Crown

I think Cavill wants to remain in the Superman role so much that he's willing to play along with any PR narrative from the studio. Remember when he said he was glad that the Superman suit in "Man of Steel" had no trunks on the outside? If they bring the trunks back in the next Superman movie, just to match the current comics, I bet he will start to give interviews saying how he's happy that the trunks are back.

----------


## matthew

This is probably hopeless, but I really don't want them to make Shazam into a comedy. The golden age book was not making fun of the character or the world, it was genuinely earnest.

----------


## Frontier

> This is probably hopeless, but I really don't want them to make Shazam into a comedy. The golden age book was not making fun of the character or the world, it was genuinely earnest.


I think from what's been said that the movie will be whimsical and funny but also have real stakes and emotional grit, as it were.

----------


## Beantownbrown

'Joker' Movie: 'Deadpool 2' Actress Zazie Beetz in Talks to Join Joaquin Phoenix




> The 'Atlanta' actress is in talks to join the standalone origin movie from Todd Phillips.
> 
> Zazie Beetz is moving from absurd superheroics to a supervillain character drama.
> 
> The actress, who co-starred in Deadpool 2, is in talks to join Joaquin Phoenix in Joker, the standalone origin project from Warner Bros. and The Hangover helmer Todd Phillips.
> 
> Phoenix is portraying the DC Comics villain in a movie that is more moderately budgeted and darker than the studios other DC-based movies, known as the DC Cinematic Universe. The movie is also described as more a dark character study than a crime thriller, with Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy as the tonal watchwords.
> 
> While details of the Phillips and Scott Silver-penned script are being kept under wraps, if a deal makes, Beetz would play a single mother who catches the interest of the man who will become the Clown Prince of Crime.
> ...

----------


## Coal Tiger

> The Snyder Cut is dead. Bury it.


It never existed.

----------


## Jabare

> It never existed.


the principal footage is there, but its unfinished it probably needs CGI editing and to be finalized in post. Time and money that I can't imagine DC ever green lighting.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Most accurate comic book designs  ever
neug7xwawxa11.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Most accurate comic book designs  ever
> neug7xwawxa11.jpg


And I honestly never thought we'd actually see Momoa in that suit  :Wink: .

----------


## Black_Adam

> And I honestly never thought we'd actually see Momoa in that suit .


Same here, especially when all the set photos showed him wearing that shell-type armour.

Black Manta and Ocean Master look great too!

----------


## byrd156

> Most accurate comic book designs  ever
> neug7xwawxa11.jpg


Minus the hair color but hey I'm excited for once.

----------


## Elmo

> The Snyder Cut is dead. Bury it.


Release the Snyder Cut!!!

----------


## Beantownbrown



----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Details Surrounding Joaquin Phoenix’s ‘JOKER’ Real Name & Family Revealed: http://thathashtagshow.com/2018/07/e...-origin-story/

 :EEK!:

----------


## Beantownbrown

Aquaman Trailer Update

----------


## Bossace

> Aquaman Trailer Update


Why does that have the release as a week earlier on December 14th?

----------


## Jokerz79

> Details Surrounding Joaquin Phoenix’s ‘JOKER’ Real Name & Family Revealed: http://thathashtagshow.com/2018/07/e...-origin-story/


Please No.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Please No.


Joker's real name is Arthur Fleck? I mean A. Fleck, is it an April Fools' joke?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Beantownbrown

> Why does that have the release as a week earlier on December 14th?


That's the UK release date for the movie

----------


## Johnny

> Details Surrounding Joaquin Phoenixs JOKER Real Name & Family Revealed: http://thathashtagshow.com/2018/07/e...-origin-story/


Folks you should stop trusting THS so unquestionably. They have a relatively decent track record, but they've also made some horrible scoops in the past.

----------


## Robotman

> Joker's real name is Arthur Fleck? I mean A. Fleck, is it an April Fools' joke?


Haha! Didn’t notice that.

----------


## Lightning Rider

I want this trailer noooow

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I want this trailer noooow


We should be getting it any time. The panel should be starting in about ten minutes from the time I post this.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

here we go...

----------


## Styles

> We should be getting it any time. The panel should be starting in about ten minutes from the time I post this.


Cool, I'm ready to see this

----------


## Bossace

Hey I’m looking for an aquaman trailer, anyone got that hook up?

----------


## Vanguard-01

I'm gonna be REALLY annoyed if they make us wait the whole multiple-hour panel before they put it up online.

----------


## Bossace

> I'm gonna be REALLY annoyed if they make us wait the whole multiple-hour panel before they put it up online.


How long is the panel?

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> I'm gonna be REALLY annoyed if they make us wait the whole multiple-hour panel before they put it up online.


That's only fair to everyone who made the trip to San Diego, waited in the huge line and are either standing or sitting in crappy seats. Let them get first dibs.

----------


## Bossace

If it’s any positive WB posted the new trailer to fantastic beasts so I think they’re posting after it’s shown

----------


## Vanguard-01

> How long is the panel?


At least two and a half hours.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> At least two and a half hours.


lol. It's 2 hours. 10:30am to 12:30pm local time.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

The Fantastic Beast trailer went up couple minutes after they showed it. Most likely will do the same.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Looks like Godzilla was next.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## HandofPrometheus

Ugh they went with the new 52 attitude Billy. Well trailer looked good.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


That looks GREAT! I was right: this could be DC's chance to out-Marvel Marvel!

----------


## KurtW95

> Ugh they went with the new 52 attitude Billy. Well trailer looked good.


I wouldn't say that. Looks like they met it somewhere in the middle. And that comes from somebody who absolutely hates New 52 Billy. And I liked the trailer too. Way more than I thought I would. Still keeping my expectations down though.

----------


## FBarnhill

The Child Protective Services woman talking to Billy in the beginning is the same character from Lights Out.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Robotman

> 


Ok, they nailed what they were going for. Superman meets Big meets Harry Potter. Im loving what Im seeing so far!

----------


## Coal Tiger

Shazam trailer was better.

----------


## Robotman

> 


No words. 

Should’ve sent a poet.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


GLORIOUS! Well worth the wait! 

This movie is going to rock so HARD!

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Aquaman is so damn beautiful.

----------


## Styles

>

----------


## Korath

ll of the yes. All of them, for both Shazam and Aquaman.

----------


## Robotman

Now that I’ve had a minute to compose myself, I can comment on the trailer. First off, holy shit Atlantis looks amazing! It’s not the crumbling ruins of an undersea kingdom that we so often see it as. Maybe Arthur had only been to the outskirts of the city and never into the real heart. It’s absolutely beautiful. Plus all the creatures look amazing.  But the icing on the cake was Black Manta! He looked even more badass than I could have imagined.

----------


## RepHope

The post-Snyder DCEU is getting it's act together. Very excited for Aquaman and Shazam.

----------


## Pinsir

what is with the DCEU and depictions of kids being bullied?

----------


## Bossace

Both trailers look great! Now the battle for December really begins!

----------


## El_Gato

Wow! DCEU back on track? Both of those trailers were absolutely phenomenal! The Shazam movie looks like so much fun, is comic accurate and has the perfect tone! Aquaman looks beautiful! The marine life, Atlantis...everything looks good. Black Manta though! He looks so badass!!

----------


## Bossace

Also seems This isn’t DCEU, this is “The Worlds of DC”

https://screenrant.com/dc-extended-u...campaign=SR-TW

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Supposedly Aquaman in classic costume was shown and extra footage at Hall H. Really wanted to see some Mera action scenes UT so far everything looks good.

----------


## nightw1ng

Aquaman seems more epic but Shazam seems more focused.  Based on the trailers alone, I feel like Shazam will get better reviews.  My fear with Aquaman is it looks like they're packing in so many things into one film.  If the trailer were for a series instead of a movie, I wouldn't be as concerned.

----------


## Korath

I wonder if we havent seen a glimpse of the Dead King at 0:57 in the trailer... If so, could Wan be seeding him ?

----------


## Frontier

Shazam trailer: 

Billy still seems like a "moody foster kid with a heart of gold," which makes Freddy come off more like Billy then Billy does, up until he transforms and then he basically becomes Billy.

So if the family dynamic is "Game of Thrones," then what does that make Mary? Sansa? Daenarys? Arya  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

The Wizard now looks like a weird mix of his old look with the white hair, his New 52 race, and wearing the same costume Shazam wears.

I love him trying to help by charging peoples phones only to blow them up.

Looks like Billy doesn't quite have the grasp of flight yet. I'm curious to see how they'll convey his abilities in this movie, especially the non-physical stuff like the Wisdom of Solomon.

Aquaman trailer: 

Well, I think I can see why Wan held back from a trailer before all the CG work was done. Atlantis was a feast for the eyes  :Big Grin: .

Tom Curry and Atlanna meeting! Heck, it looks like Tom Curry is still alive in Arthur's adult years.

So I'm guessing lin lieu of the typical radar effect Aquaman "talks to fish" through his glowing eyes?

Arthur and Mera being hunted by the Trench  :EEK!: !!!

All the different Atlantean races together and going to war looks like it'll be quite the visual spectacle.

Black Manta looks wicked.

"Yeahooo!" I think that's officially Momoa's Aquaman's catchphrase. Either that, or "awesome."

----------


## Godlike13

> 


Oh, man. DC gonna have a winner with this one.

----------


## KurtW95

> 


Not a huge fan of Aquabro, but damn. That looks great!

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Aquaman seems more epic but Shazam seems more focused.  Based on the trailers alone, I feel like Shazam will get better reviews.  My fear with Aquaman is it looks like they're packing in so many things into one film.  If the trailer were for a series instead of a movie, I wouldn't be as concerned.


I can see that concern. But it's typical of fantasy epics to do a lot of stuff. I can already tell that Manta and the Trench are not going to take up alot of time. Especially since Manta is only minor and will get bigger later.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I'm so glad for Aquaman. The character really needed this.

----------


## Jokerz79

Aqauman looks amazing words I don't know if I thought I'd ever type.  :Big Grin:  more reason I really wish they move it and let it shine to it's fullest potential.

Shazam looked good only complaint Billy as Shazam personality was more like if Freddy from the trailer became Shazam outside of that nice but was more impressed by the Aquaman trailer.

----------


## MindofShadow

Nice to see WB learned to "diversify" their super hero films. 

Both movies look good, in their own way.

Aquaman looks like it is going to be stunning or a freaking mess... but a very pretty and fun mess. There are worse things

----------


## Gaastra

Shazam trailer was fun.  Hate new 52 jerk billy but he does not look as jerk like here.  Fun trailer. Looks like a fun movie from this trailer.

Aquaman trailer was "meh".  Atlantis looked neat but was not impressed at all.  Will still give it a chance.

Showed them to my family.  They laughed at shazam.  Aquaman one of them asked if black panther was going to show up?  They said they felt like they saw this in black panther!  Ouch.  Does not feel as black panther like to me but I can see why they would say that. So thumb up for shazam and aquaman did not impress me at all.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s weird. Millar`s Superior is an obvious take on the original Captain Marvel trope with a homage wink at Reeves Superman at the end but the story contained in the trailer is basically the beginning plot of Superior. Kid gets power, gets help and tests his stuff while getting aquainted with it. 

I enjoy the distinctive flavour from the grim n gritty but it was passable. Nothing surprised me yet but sure, it`s more character focused wich means it can screw up less. 

Aquaman on the other hand looks promising awesome but got more chances to screw it up because it juggles a bigger mythos in one film and is helmed visually to greather lenghts. Personally, I loved what I`ve seen and hope it doesn`t fall in the obvious traps in terms of character focus and plot.

----------


## Aioros22

[QUOTE=Bossace;3803716]Also seems This isn’t DCEU, this is “The Worlds of DC”[QUOTE/]

All for the better. The more the recent movies distance themselves in terms of tonality to the "main line" or whatever the heck you want to call them, the higher chances they have of being well received. 

I`ll be there for the surf for sure.

----------


## Carabas

> Also seems This isn’t DCEU, this is “The Worlds of DC”
> 
> https://screenrant.com/dc-extended-u...campaign=SR-TW


I strongly suspect everybody is going to keep on calling it DCEU instead of WoDC.

----------


## Iconic

Soooo...are we gonna change the thread title or start a "Worlds of DC" thread?

----------


## Charlus

Great, more JL style movies. Somehow Marvel always manages to avoid giving the impression of a CGI fest. An error DC keeps making over and over again. And that awful red wig...

The Shazam trailer looks promosing, though.

----------


## Colossus1980

Aquaman looks visually stunning.  Shazam looks more fun tho.  Wished they use Black Adam for Shazam instead of giving him a solo.  Will be interesting to see  how Aquaman does in a crowded weekend.

----------


## byrd156

Curious how Sivana will be used in the movie.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I have a good feeling about both films. More so _Shazam_. I think the _Aquaman_ trailer was a bit cheesy, but that had to do with the way it was edited I think than what I'm seeing of the movie itself and how I feel the scenes will play out in their own context (if that makes sense). I'm still very excited for it, and think Manta (especially) and Orm look awesome. 

Between these trailers, the _Godzilla_ trailer, and the final _Evangelion_ film FINALLY getting a release timeframe, this is shaping out to be a pretty f***ing awesome nerd day for me.

----------


## Frontier

> Soooo...are we gonna change the thread title or start a "Worlds of DC" thread?


Let's see how long DC sticks with it. I think people are too used to "DCEU" by this point.



> Curious how Sivana will be used in the movie.


I think Sivana is basically fulfilling Black Adam's role in the movie.

----------


## El_Gato

> Aqauman looks amazing words I don't know if I thought I'd ever type.  more reason I really wish they move it and let it shine to it's fullest potential.
> 
> Shazam looked good only complaint Billy as Shazam personality was more like if Freddy from the trailer became Shazam outside of that nice but was more impressed by the Aquaman trailer.


All WB has to do is convince the GA that Aquaman is a must see event on the big screen, and Poppins/Bumblebee will be left in the dust. The scenes with Atlantis, the marine life and Black Manta has surely helped them alot in that regard for sure!

----------


## Carabas

> I think Sivana is basically fulfilling Black Adam's role in the movie.


From earlier reports he's a very golden age Sivana.

----------


## Colossus1980

> All WB has to do is convince the GA that Aquaman is a must see event on the big screen, and Poppins/Bumblebee will be left in the dust. The scenes with Atlantis, the marine life and Black Manta has surely helped them alot in that regard for sure!


Families will go to see Poppins, young girls will see Bumblebee(Hailee Steinfeld), and the men will flock to see Aquaman?

----------


## Unspeakable Evil

Liked both trailers. But I personally liked Shazam a little bit more.

----------


## Charlus

I didnt know sharks could roar...

----------


## Jokerz79

> Families will go to see Poppins, young girls will see Bumblebee(Hailee Steinfeld), and the men will flock to see Aquaman?


I heard on Collider the Comic-Con panel for Bumblebee started with Stan Bush singing the Touch they are going after my generation of men from the 80's with Bumblebee too hence the G1 designs so Aquaman will be splitting that demo right now.

----------


## El_Gato

> Families will go to see Poppins, young girls will see Bumblebee(Hailee Steinfeld), and the men will flock to see Aquaman?


I think a shirtless Jason Mamoa is a bigger draw than Haileen Steinfeld, so Aquaman got the women crowd covered. If Aquaman gets good reviews, I could see them stealing the family demographic from Poppins very easily, especially since it looks visually stunning.

----------


## Starter Set

> I think a shirtless Jason Mamoa is a bigger draw than Haileen Steinfeld, so Aquaman got the women crowd covered


God forbid women could be interested by the story.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I didn’t know sharks could roar...


I think that was a mosasaur not a shark

----------


## Charlus

I’d wish, but it is clearly a shark.

----------


## Starter Set

> I didn’t know sharks could roar...


Sharks have no organs for producing sound. Though, according to legends, some sharks could make a sound like a bark or something.

Pretty hard to prove as you can imagine.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I think a shirtless Jason Mamoa is a bigger draw than Haileen Steinfeld, so Aquaman got the women crowd covered. If Aquaman gets good reviews, I could see them stealing the family demographic from Poppins very easily, especially since it looks visually stunning.


When I saw Jurassic Park as a kid it was amazing bringing Dinosaurs to life on screen was seen as impossible as doing it in real life then. CGI has taken away that sense of wonder and amazement with films because we know its CGI and its in every blockbuster.

You're banking on spectacle for Aquaman Bumblebee and Mary Poppins are banking on nostalgia which in 2018 nostalgia is way more powerful. 

Aquaman looks great I want it to do well saying it should move isn't insulting it. It's wishing it the best by moving it away from getting lost in shuffle.

----------


## Holt

Loved both trailers. I'm also glad Billy Batson isn't a complete little shit here.

----------


## Colossus1980

> When I saw Jurassic Park as a kid it was amazing bringing Dinosaurs to life on screen was seen as impossible as doing it in real life then. CGI has taken away that sense of wonder and amazement with films because we know its CGI and its in every blockbuster.


True Dat.  CGI is a dime a dozen.  Lots of visually stunning films have tanked.  Not saying Aquaman will but it is lined up with a bunch of films that will seem to do well.  Although I do think this Winter season will be muted in terms of box office blockbusters.  No Star Wars films coming out and I don't think any films will be crossing over 300M domestic.

----------


## El_Gato

> God forbid women could be interested by the story.


That too but, women enjoy eye candy just as much as men do, so...




> When I saw Jurassic Park as a kid it was amazing bringing Dinosaurs to life on screen was seen as impossible as doing it in real life then. CGI has taken away that sense of wonder and amazement with films because we know its CGI and its in every blockbuster.
> 
> You're banking on spectacle for Aquaman Bumblebee and Mary Poppins are banking on nostalgia which in 2018 nostalgia is way more powerful. 
> 
> Aquaman looks great I want it to do well saying it should move isn't insulting it. It's wishing it the best by moving it away from getting lost in shuffle.


No where to move it to. The movie schedule is jam packed and moving Aquaman would just show Disney that WB is afraid to compete with them. Press would spin it as WB having no faith in the film...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Aquaman: SDCC Exclusive Footage:

    Shot of a lighthouse in a snowglobe...Atlanna and Tom Curry falling in love and having Arthur. Kidman goes back into the sea after he’s born. "You are the bridge between land and sea."
    Adult Arthur and his dad in a bar talking about his special nature.
    Grown Aquaman, goes to a sub, Mera telling him to take his place as king
    Plane flying over the desert. Aquaman and Mera looking for lost Atlanteans
    They find a cave, a gear, Aquaman puts something into it and nothing happens. (in the Sahara)
    Mera summons Aquaman’s sweat because water is needed as a catalyst.
    Gears start moving, he jokes you could have just peed on it.
    A hologram appears, describes the power of Atlantis in the trident. The first king of Atlantis. Reminiscent of Superman at the Fortress of Solitude having Kryptonian history explained to him. The Atlantean king explains the power of the Trident.
    Battle between Orrn and Aquaman...the king hologram believes the Trident will unite the kingdoms.
    Orrn wants Atlantis to rise to power. Black Manta and his goons show up, prompting a really cool chase scene, long tracking shots, Mera and Aquaman running away from Black Manta and his henchmen
    Some action of Nicole Kidman fighting inside what appears to be the lighthouse home. She's in human clothing.
    Shot of Aquaman in the classic Aquaman suit

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/07/...comic-con-2018

----------


## Gaastra

> You're banking on spectacle for Aquaman Bumblebee and Mary Poppins are banking on nostalgia which in 2018 nostalgia is way more powerful.


Also they just confirmed optimus is in his 1984 look and cybertron scenes are in also!





While I was not impressed with the aquaman trailer I didn't think it was that bad.  Lot of cg at the end but it is 2018.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Both films look great. Hopefully the final films deliver. Shazam casting seems perfect. 

Glad they didn't show the full costume to us normies.

----------


## Robotman

Loved how the Shazam trailer started out with the dark foreboding music and Freddy saying his Game of Thrones line, then it was like “gotcha!” Relax, this is gonna be fun.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton



----------


## Pinsir

The Shazam trailer was better than the Aquaman by a long shot, but I don't think the trailer is that representative of the film.

----------


## Black_Adam

Both trailers look really good, but was secretly (and selfishly) hoping for a MoS2 or The Batman tease.

----------


## Hawkman

Honestly, I wasn't really looking forward to _Shazam_, but after seeing that trailer, I can't wait to see it! It looks like a ton of fun!

That said, though, _Aquaman_ remains as my most-hyped DCEU film for the moment. Trailer delivered everything I was hoping for and more.

----------


## ross61

> Great, more JL style movies. Somehow Marvel always manages to avoid giving the impression of a CGI fest. An error DC keeps making over and over again. And that awful red wig...
> 
> The Shazam trailer looks promosing, though.


There must have been some marvel movies that didnt look like CGi messes that I must not have seen....

----------


## RepHope

> Both trailers look really good, but was secretly (and selfishly) hoping for a MoS2 or The Batman tease.


MoS2 isn't going to happen before Cavill and WB wrap up negotiations, and Reeves gets to take as long as he wants with his Batman project.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Id wish, but it is clearly a shark.


Wait, are you talking about the thing that chomps down on that giant crustacean at the end of the trailer? That's a mosasaur.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Wait, are you talking about the thing that chomps down on that giant crustacean at the end of the trailer? *That's a mosasaur.*


I think you're right.

Even if it isn't, a roaring shark is hardly the most outlandish thing going on here in this movie about the lost kingdom of Atlantis and fish people....

----------


## Charlus

What those two trailers have taught me is that there is a serious problem with bullying in the United States.

----------


## Charlus

No, is another scene. 2 minutes mark. Its a white shark, roaring.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> No, is another scene. 2 minutes mark. Its a white shark, roaring. It way over the top, man.


Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Eh, its not really a problem. I mean, if we're going to suspend disbelief enough to enjoy a world where there are entire races of sea-dwelling peoples with advanced technology and undiscovered mythic creatures, is it really that much of a stretch that, in this world, a shark can make a sound somewhat akin to a roar?

----------


## Frontier

> Aquaman: SDCC Exclusive Footage:
> 
>     Shot of a lighthouse in a snowglobe...Atlanna and Tom Curry falling in love and having Arthur. Kidman goes back into the sea after hes born. "You are the bridge between land and sea."
>     Adult Arthur and his dad in a bar talking about his special nature.
>     Grown Aquaman, goes to a sub, Mera telling him to take his place as king
>     Plane flying over the desert. Aquaman and Mera looking for lost Atlanteans
>     They find a cave, a gear, Aquaman puts something into it and nothing happens. (in the Sahara)
>     Mera summons Aquamans sweat because water is needed as a catalyst.
>     Gears start moving, he jokes you could have just peed on it.
> ...


Atlantean holograms. I can dig it  :Cool: .

I'm curious about the scene at the lighthouse. Is this where Atlanna dies, or what drives her back to the sea to leave Tom and Arthur? 



> 


I think that's the brightest Wonder Woman's costume has looked in a movie yet  :Big Grin: .

----------


## SuperiorIronman

Why is a Mosasaur here? And I mean besides trying to reel people in from Jurassic World. They went extinct millennia ago, but you mean to tell me nobody ever noticed because you would get things like corpses washing ashore. Or do they just exist and Mosasaur are still around in the DCEU and you can just find one at seaworld? I'm willing to let certain things slide like the literal seahorses because that has some basis in the franchise and could be argued was native to the region that is Atlantis. Mosasaurs lacked boundaries. They are found all over the world and for a species we actually know about, and we know it went extinct, just happens to be in Atlantis and only Atlantis. 

I get that it's a superhero movie, but that's like if in Batman Begins a pterodactyl flew around the city. Why is this here? That is on several levels retarded even for a superhero movie.

----------


## Holt

> 


Seen: Wonder Woman walking away from the world of man for 100 years.

----------


## Charlus

That’s my point of view. Of course we all eager to concede a man can fly, run at who knows what speed and that atlanteans can speak underwater. But after that, the closer the story sticks to the real world, the better. Mosasaurs and roaring sharks seem to me unnecessary things in order to have a good Aquaman adventure.

----------


## Drako

Some people choose the weirdest things to nitpick.

----------


## El_Gato

> Some people choose the weirdest things to nitpick.


Tell me about it lol

----------


## RepHope

> Seen: Wonder Woman walking away from the world of man for 100 years.


Not like it needs to be said but Snyder's stuff is being thrown out. For the better I say.

----------


## Black_Adam

> Some people choose the weirdest things to nitpick.


I know right not sure anyone is going to boycott this movie because it has an underwater dinosaur in it.

It's a big ocean we still have barely scratched the surface of it...

----------


## Charmed

I loved the Aquaman trailer, but the Shazam one left me feeling dry. It wasn't bad. Just bland. 

I'm glad Jenkins is showing Diana in costume among the people. The WW in her film would have never walked away from humanity the way the one in BvS did.

----------


## Holt

> Not like it needs to be said but Snyder's stuff is being thrown out. For the better I say.


Oh, I was being sarcastic. The first WW movie already pretty much ignored all that.

----------


## RepHope

> Oh, I was being sarcastic. The first WW movie already pretty much ignored all that.


For the better I'd say. Hope if Cavill ever gets another Supes movie they ignore Snyder's stuff as well. Reeves is definitely going to do whatever he wants.

----------


## Charlus

> Hope if Cavill ever gets anothe Supes movie ....


Hope he never does.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Hope he never does.


Uhh, why? ...

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> Some people choose the weirdest things to nitpick.


To be completely fair, Mosasaurs are known to be extinct. Battle whales, or fictional sea-monsters are fine because they could be argued has some basis in the reality of this film. If I can accept the Atlanteans, I can accept the fantasy elements that come with them. But a Mosasaur is a real-world animal that is clearly extinct and has no reason to be here. You can substitute it with almost anything and screams of "Jurassic world is popular so why don't we put one into Aquaman, because it's a sea-creature". Like I said, you can apply the same logic to other properties. In Justice League, why not stick a T.Rex drinking from that lake around the Batcave? You don't because they have no place in the real or fictional locations/times of the film. It's the movie's corporate heads winking at the audience and spoon feeding what the audience might be into.

That's not a knock against the film, but it's not encouraging to find that these things aren't coming from the right place. It's pandering, and regardless of Aquaman being good or not, it's still pandering.

----------


## RepHope

> Uhh, why? ...


Not everyone likes him. I just want another Supes movie, much as I like Cavill he's secondary for me. If the movie is good I'll go see it with or without him.

Man who'd of thought WW, Aquaman, and Shazam would be DC's new Trinity? Haven't felt this optimistic about DC in years.




> *To be completely fair, Mosasaurs are known to be extinct*. Battle whales, or fictional sea-monsters are fine because they could be argued has some basis in the reality of this film. If I can accept the Atlanteans, I can accept the fantasy elements that come with them. But a Mosasaur is a real-world animal that is clearly extinct and has no reason to be here. You can substitute it with almost anything and screams of "Jurassic world is popular so why don't we put one into Aquaman, because it's a sea-creature". Like I said, you can apply the same logic to other properties. In Justice League, why not stick a T.Rex drinking from that lake around the Batcave? You don't because they have no place in the real or fictional locations/times of the film. It's the movie's corporate heads winking at the audience and spoon feeding what the audience might be into.
> 
> That's not a knock against the film, but it's not encouraging to find that these things aren't coming from the right place. It's pandering, and regardless of Aquaman being good or not, it's still pandering.


This is not trying to be scientifically accurate my man. It's trying to be cool. Jesus people, Zeus didn't make humanity but he did in the DCEU. What makes you think the suits forced this and not Wan just wanting to put a cool aquatic creature in his merman movie?

----------


## MosSuperman

I liked Shazam's trailer but imo Aquaman's trailer blew it out of the water.  :Stick Out Tongue:  lol. I hope both films turn out great.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Grace Randolph had a good observation about the "Aquaman vs Mary Poppins" issue. 

Everything about Aquaman screams "You HAVE to see this in theaters!" Mary Poppins? Unless they go ham with the visuals, that movie definitely comes across as the kind of movie you can wait to see.

----------


## BlackClaw

> Not everyone likes him. I just want another Supes movie, much as I like Cavill he's secondary for me. If the movie is good I'll go see it with or without him.
> 
> Man who'd of thought WW, Aquaman, and Shazam would be DC's new Trinity? Haven't felt this optimistic about DC in years.
> 
> 
> This is not trying to be scientifically accurate my man. It's trying to be cool. Jesus people, Zeus didn't make humanity but he did in the DCEU. What makes you think the suits forced this and not Wan just wanting to put a cool aquatic creature in his merman movie?


^ This. Seriously people this is a world where aliens and Greek Gods exist. I think audiences can accept a prehistoric creature being not so extinct.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Grace Randolph had a good observation about the "Aquaman vs Mary Poppins" issue. 
> 
> Everything about Aquaman screams "You HAVE to see this in theaters!" Mary Poppins? Unless they go ham with the visuals, that movie definitely comes across as the kind of movie you can wait to see.


After this trailer I think its all on reviews and word of mouth to see which one is going to remain supreme. I do agree with Grace on Aquaman being a "must see".

Also I don't know if Wikipedia is right but the budget for Aquaman is 160 million which isn't too expensive and is actually cheaper than MoS.

----------


## Serpico Jones

I’ve been surprised by the divisive response to the Aquaman trailer. Seen a lot of people worried and disappointed.

----------


## Colossus1980

Would love to see a team up movie with Shazam and Flash.  Also would like to see Batman interact with Shazam.  Hope WB still plans to do JL 2.

----------


## nightrider

> Ive been surprised by the divisive response to the Aquaman trailer. Seen a lot of people worried and disappointed.


Exactly my thoughts. When I saw the trailer I thought its gonna be 100% a crowd pleaser, but apparently people are complaining about having too much CGI. Im confused though, are people actually thinking its gonna be a street level movie with minimal CGI? This is Aquaman were talking about, King of Atlantis, Im expecting Avatar like amount of CGI.

----------


## The_Lurk

> Also seems This isnt DCEU, this is The Worlds of DC
> 
> https://screenrant.com/dc-extended-u...campaign=SR-TW


I think its a bad idea. For the lack of a better term I'd still refer to DCEU for the connected movies; 'specially since I do not care one bit for the non-dceu ones. I mean doh, "here you got an origin(!) movie from the version of a character which is not connect to anything and would probably not revisited either". Yeah, they can shove it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## InfamousBG

I really liked both trailers that we got today.

----------


## The_Lurk

> Not like it needs to be said but Snyder's stuff is being thrown out. For the better I say.


There are good ways to do this and there are bad ways to do this. I like where they are going with the DCEU but big contradictions like that are as bad as they are unnecessary.




> To be completely fair, Mosasaurs are known to be extinct. Battle whales, or fictional sea-monsters are fine because they could be argued has some basis in the reality of this film. If I can accept the Atlanteans, I can accept the fantasy elements that come with them. But a Mosasaur is a real-world animal that is clearly extinct and has no reason to be here. You can substitute it with almost anything and screams of "Jurassic world is popular so why don't we put one into Aquaman, because it's a sea-creature". Like I said, you can apply the same logic to other properties. In Justice League, why not stick a T.Rex drinking from that lake around the Batcave? You don't because they have no place in the real or fictional locations/times of the film. It's the movie's corporate heads winking at the audience and spoon feeding what the audience might be into.
> 
> That's not a knock against the film, but it's not encouraging to find that these things aren't coming from the right place. It's pandering, and regardless of Aquaman being good or not, it's still pandering.


We do know for a fact that we know less about whats going on on deep ocean levels than what is going on the surface of Mars. And that is "just" the real world; excluding all the supernatural elements of the DC Universe.

----------


## mace11

> Zeus didn't make humanity but he did in the DCEU.


Diana's mother said that was just a story and not true.

Here is some others views on this.

How does the Wonder Woman “Zeus is god and created mankind” narrative work in the world of Batman, Superman, etc.?

By Vismay Parmar



> In such case, it is quite possible that Zeus did not actually create the whole of mankind. His exact power set is unknown, but if Ares can create his armor out of random metallic junk, the King of Olympians should be able to create the tribe of Amazons by copying the biological structure of humans, a species that already existed. This would explain why Amazons are basically ageless and functionally immortal human women. Zeus could also take human form, which explains how he “created” Diana with Hippolyta.



By Dan Holliday



> It’s all a lie or a front.
> Zeus didn’t create man. Diana grew up on an isolated island where the myth was important for the motivation of the Amazons. The DCEU isn’t going to pull a Prometheus (2012 film) and pretend that a deity magically created mankind. What Diana was told was a story. At some point in time, we will get answers to these two burning questions:
> The origins of the gods.
> The fate of the Kryptonian colony ship that landed on Earth 20,000 years ago.
> 
> I submit to you that there will be a very big reveal at some point showing how the universe was at war, which helped drive the hyper-advanced Kryptonians into isolation to stay out of it. The gods will turn out to be super-beings either from another universe or from ours, but so insanely advanced that to us they are deities.
> 
> I bet if Diana had stopped to ask Ares about the Enchantress (and her brother), she would have known her. As Luthor explained in BvS, the source of most of our ancient religions/legends will be these super-beings. Some of them will be metahumans —beings of great power from our universe— and some will be those super-creatures from other universes.
> This will all be tied in to Apokalips, Darkseid, Zeus, Ares, the Enchantress, the Kryptonians, the Guardians, the Lanterns, etc.

----------


## LifeIsILL

> Honestly, I wasn't really looking forward to _Shazam_, but after seeing that trailer, I can't wait to see it! It looks like a ton of fun!
> 
> That said, though, _Aquaman_ remains as my most-hyped DCEU film for the moment. Trailer delivered everything I was hoping for and more.


It's missing some killer nautilus.....come on....everyone wants to see killer nautilus

Aquaman (1994-2001) 024-016.jpg

One of the reasons I loved Peter David's run so much. It's a real dive into the deep ocean. Whereas this trailer....was very....New 52-ish with the generic family plot evil Brother story.

----------


## mace11

> I'm assuming Shiva will be the villain since she's never shown up in live action yet


 Lady shiva has  never been in a live action movie before but she was in live action tv.

Sung-Hi Lee as Lady Shiva in Birds of Prey.





> Lady Shiva appears in the Birds of Prey TV series in the episode "Lady Shiva" portrayed by Sung-Hi Lee





> Lady Shiva will appear in the fifth and final season of the series Gotham. Shiva was originally supposed to appear in the final episode of fourth season, "No Man's Land", in a scene which she is seen fightning three thugs in Gotham Chinatown.

----------


## Carabas

> Why is a Mosasaur here? And I mean besides trying to reel people in from Jurassic World. They went extinct millennia ago...


They got it from Skartaris?

----------


## Carabas

> There are good ways to do this and there are bad ways to do this. I like where they are going with the DCEU but big contradictions like that are as bad as they are unnecessary.


I don't see how it is a big contradiction, and it was pretty much character assassination that she would just turn her back on the world until Saint Superman inspired her to come back.

Imagine what Superman fans would do if they did that to their favourite.

----------


## The_Lurk

> I don't see ho it is a big contradiction, and it was pretty much character assassination that she would just turn her back on the world until Saint Superman inspired her to come back.
> 
> Imagine what Superman fans would do if they did that to their favourite.


Its explained in BvS; also it was not Supes that brought her back but a threat of a magnitude that required her powers to act because the alpha males apparently weren't getting their act together.

And I do not need to imagine much; all you need is google for "MOS Zod neck snap" to get tons of discussions about something like it.

----------


## Carabas

> Its explained in BvS...


It really is not. I mean, some sort of explanation is given, but not one that works for any Wonder Woman fan.

----------


## The_Lurk

> It really is not. I mean, some sort of explanation is given, but not one that works for any Wonder Woman fan.


It works in context of the DCEU. I agree that its not the best or flattering; but going with it and turning it into something good ("turned her back on humanity... to save the universe [and humanity with it] by combating something in another realm which took 100 years" [or something better with actual thought power poured into it]) would have been the wiser move instead of crapping on her kick-ass "comeback" in BvS.

----------


## Carabas

> It works in context of the DCEU.


The problem with the is that the DCEU (a name they abandoned) didn't work.




> but going with it and turning it into something good ("turned her back on humanity... to save the universe [and humanity with it] by combating something in another realm which took 100 years"


Which is not turning her back on humanity on any kind of level.

----------


## The_Lurk

> ...
> 
> 
> Which is not turning her back on humanity on any kind of level.


Now you got it  :Smile:

----------


## Carabas

> Now you got it


So it makes no sense they said she did.

----------


## Aioros22

> Exactly my thoughts. When I saw the trailer I thought it’s gonna be 100% a crowd pleaser, but apparently people are complaining about having too much CGI. I’m confused though, are people actually thinking it’s gonna be a street level movie with minimal CGI? This is Aquaman we’re talking about, King of Atlantis, I’m expecting Avatar like amount of CGI.


You could always make it self contained with just Manta but the moment it goes to Atlantis you need to go big or go home. GCI is a given, it boils down if it is well made and works on the screen or not. 

I think the concerns boil down to this movie having much more to screw up than say Shazam on the merit of simply juggling with a bigger mythos in one release. 

Now, that`s a cause for concern because we`ve seen that risk before *but*  I`m glad the team is taking that risk. There is no guarantee that it will have a sequel and it`s Aquaman! The character you thought would never see in a major studio release so they`re taking the chance to show that world to general audiences. Coming the sequels, they can always pick plot hooks that will almost obviously be hinted at if not directly touched upon, because, let`s face it, it is  a lot for one single movie.

----------


## nightrider

> You could always make it self contained with just Manta but the moment it goes to Atlantis you need to go big or go home. GCI is a given, it boils down if it is well made and works on the screen or not. 
> 
> I think the concerns boil down to this movie having much more to screw up than say Shazam on the merit of simply juggling with a bigger mythos in one release. 
> 
> Now, that`s a cause for concern because we`ve seen that risk before *but*  I`m glad the team is taking that risk. There is no guarantee that it will have a sequel and it`s Aquaman! The character you thought would never see in a major studio release so they`re taking the chance to show that world to general audiences. Coming the sequels, they can always pick plot hooks that will almost obviously be hinted at if not directly touched upon, because, let`s face it, it is  a lot for one single movie.


Fair enough on concerns because of how risky it is. But tbh, a street level Aquaman that is self contained would definitely be something I'm not extremely keen on. If its going to be anything like the TV series pilot and a version of geoff's first arc for N52 Aquaman then its gonna be pretty underwhelming I believe. I do think Shazam is going to be a natural hit, probably gonna have good word of mouth and reviews, but if you ask me I'm actually more excited about Aquaman.

----------


## Gaastra

Forbes calls aquaman trailer a black panther rip-off! (note they do give the trailer a thumbs up for it's cheese and classic comic look.  They just complain about the plot.) Also it's starting. People online are saying it feels like black panther also. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidip.../#525c819249b3




> And the plot seems strangely, perhaps intentionally, similar to Black Panther. Two rivals for the throne, chosen by a deathmatch in front of screaming spectators? A hidden, ancient society ready to overthrow our world at a moments notice? A side-character with a ridiculous mask?

----------


## Korath

I'm not even surprised. Normal peoples don't read comics, so they can't know that those kind of things existed for a long time.

----------


## Gaastra

Yeah this was all from the comics so I feel bad for aquaman here. BP just beat them to the punch.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Ehh Shazam's trailer appealed to me more than Aquaman's.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'm not even surprised. Normal peoples don't read comics, so they can't know that those kind of things existed for a long time.


That's why DC should send all of these outlets the history of their characters so this crap gets nipped in the bud.

----------


## Carabas

> Forbes calls aquaman trailer a black panther rip-off! (note they do give the trailer a thumbs up for it's cheese and classic comic look.  They just complain about the plot.) Also it's starting. People online are saying it feels like black panther also. 
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidip.../#525c819249b3


Sooner or later they were bound to run into the problem of superhero comics just loving to rehash certain tropes over and over again with a multitude of characters.

----------


## Gaastra

Looks like it's the sharks people are talking about most on other forums. people on other forums are making fun of the "roaring shark" and picking on the shark that breaks the glass pointing out they don't use glass much anymore and that shark would have broke his face. (to me that's a lot of nitpick.  It's a movie where a guy talks to fish.  I don't watch comic movies for real world.  I watch them for fun.  Who cares if the shark can break the glass.)



Also this meme is making the rounds. (found it on the transformers forum.)

[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## The_Lurk

> Forbes calls aquaman trailer a black panther rip-off! (note they do give the trailer a thumbs up for it's cheese and classic comic look.  They just complain about the plot.) Also it's starting. People online are saying it feels like black panther also. 
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidip.../#525c819249b3


Wasn't Forbes some kind of serious magazine? The most simple research should have revealed that the Aquaman franchise is about 20 years older. I can expect such faux pas from simpletons like myself but that is just awkward.

That aside; the "two heirs to the kingdom" story is as old as history itself.




> Sooner or later they were bound to run into the problem of superhero comics just loving to rehash certain tropes over and over again with a multitude of characters.


Already happened with that one Superhero origin movie which played in a World War and by the end a guy named Steve sacrificed all by destroying the German plane he piloted.  :Wink:  (and I was able to enjoy both of them)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> That aside; the "two heirs to the kingdom" story is as old as history itself.


Correct, which is why dinging Aquaman over this, despite being older than Black Panther, is kind of ridiculous (and most likely telling regarding that critic).

----------


## Gaastra

Not just comics how many movies, books and tv shows have used that plot?  It's a old plot.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Not like it needs to be said but Snyder's stuff is being thrown out. For the better I say.


How? Both WW and Aquaman were casted by him. He's still producing this movies. Shazam clearly references his movies.

Some stuff is being changed retroactively. A lot of franchises do this.

----------


## Aioros22

> Forbes calls aquaman trailer a black panther rip-off! (note they do give the trailer a thumbs up for it's cheese and classic comic look.  They just complain about the plot.) Also it's starting. People online are saying it feels like black panther also. 
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidip.../#525c819249b3


This is inevitable with the two movies so recent. The bitching about sharks, however, is nonsentical fandom noise as usual.

----------


## Jokerz79

> How? Both WW and Aquaman were casted by him. He's still producing this movies. Shazam clearly references his movies.
> 
> Some stuff is being changed retroactively. A lot of franchises do this.


Snyder is now to the DCEU/WoDC what Burton was to Batman Series with the Schumacher films.

----------


## Starter Set

> Normal peoples don't read comics


That's...one way to put it.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

(eh, from Toulouse i see, i was born in that town)

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

No, “Worlds of DC” was not announced as the official name for the DCEU: https://batman-news.com/2018/07/22/w...-not-official/

----------


## jertz666

> Thats my point of view. Of course we all eager to concede a man can fly, run at who knows what speed and that atlanteans can speak underwater. But after that, the closer the story sticks to the real world, the better. Mosasaurs and roaring sharks seem to me unnecessary things in order to have a good Aquaman adventure.


Good grief, You guys are over thinking this.   These may not even be mosasaurs; they look like typical sea monsters borrowed from Aquaman comic books.   Here's a panel from Dan Abnett's current Aquaman run.

https://geekdad.com/2017/11/dc-comic...-30-rebellion/

A similar creature appears in the Injustice 2 video game as part of Aquaman's super move.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7KlyBJiQVE&t=67s

And the sharks roar for the same reason those X-wing fighters in Star Wars make those "pew, pew" sounds.   If you're going to make those scenes realistic then all you should hear from the sharks are muffled sounds of water swishing around.   You shouldn't even hear anything from those space fights in Star Wars because sound doesn't travel in space:  No blaster sounds, no swooshing sounds from Tie fighters and no explosions of any kind.    Now imagine what kind of cinematic experience it would be for the audience.    These are fantasy films, folks.   And one of the things  people are willing to suspend disbelief for are the sound effects.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

Nobody I know likes the Aquaman trailer. Sorta takes the air out of the balloon a bit. Keep hearing the Black Panther ripoff thing too. The frustrating thing was Aquaman finished filming before BP but post has been so long.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Looks like it's the sharks people are talking about most on other forums. people on other forums are making fun of the "roaring shark" and picking on the shark that breaks the glass *pointing out they don't use glass much anymore*


They are aware that that scene is supposed to take place some 30 odd years in the past, right?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Nobody I know likes the Aquaman trailer. Sorta takes the air out of the balloon a bit.


I dunno, seems anecdotal. Social media is thrilled. Twitter went crazy for it and YouTube has already passed 10M views with a near 96% Like ratio to 4% Unlike.

----------


## Jokerz79

While I enjoyed Aquaman more I'm seeing more buzz personally for Shazam.

----------


## Confuzzled

> While I enjoyed Aquaman more I'm seeing more buzz personally for Shazam.


I know they aren't the end all and be all for measuring buzz, but YouTube trailer views and number of tweets don't seem to reflect that at the moment though. Arthur is handily beating Billy on those platforms. Haven't checked Facebook yet.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> While I enjoyed Aquaman more I'm seeing more buzz personally for Shazam.


I see plenty of buzz for both. Frankly? That's the best "problem" for a studio to have.

"Oh no! We've made too much awesome stuff! People can't decide which of our offerings they like better!"

The only way this could be a problem is if Aquaman and Shazam were coming out in the same month. They aren't,  so it isn't.

----------


## Pinsir

> Forbes calls aquaman trailer a black panther rip-off! (note they do give the trailer a thumbs up for it's cheese and classic comic look.  They just complain about the plot.) Also it's starting. People online are saying it feels like black panther also. 
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidip.../#525c819249b3


This is just part of how every DC film is treated by polemics. It really doesn't mean anything.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I see plenty of buzz for both. Frankly? That's the best "problem" for a studio to have.
> 
> "Oh no! We've made too much awesome stuff! People can't decide which of our offerings they like better!"
> 
> The only way this could be a problem is if Aquaman and Shazam were coming out in the same month. They aren't,  so it isn't.


It also wouldn't be the end of the world if Shazam does end up earning more than Aquaman. Provided Aquaman earns substantially enough and more importantly, is successful in regaining the goodwill for DC films post-Justice League.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I see plenty of buzz for both. Frankly? That's the best "problem" for a studio to have.
> 
> "Oh no! We've made too much awesome stuff! People can't decide which of our offerings they like better!"
> 
> The only way this could be a problem is if Aquaman and Shazam were coming out in the same month. They aren't,  so it isn't.


I haven't seen much Buzz for Aquaman outside of comic circles where it wasn't anything more than it looks good while seeing genuine excitement for Shazam.  Which I found shocking because I thought Aquaman looked better for the most part.

----------


## Holt

Like others said a lot of it seems to be the similarities to the plot of Black Panther, which was an immensely popular film. Shazam also has the benefit of being something of a fresh start from the previous divisive or outright panned DCEU flicks while Aquaman still brings that baggage with him.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I haven't seen much Buzz for Aquaman outside of comic circles *where it wasn't anything more than it looks good*


Social media strongly disagrees.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Like others said a lot of it seems to be the similarities to the plot of Black Panther, which was an immensely popular film. Shazam also has the benefit of being something of a fresh start from the previous divisive or outright panned DCEU flicks while Aquaman still brings that baggage with him.


I don't see any major disparity between how Aquaman and Shazam are being received, but I'd like to point out that Shazam also has the added advantage of working off the goodwill garnered by Aquaman (if Aquaman is indeed of impressive quality and well-received).

In the long run, if both movies are successful, it's great for the DC Films brand, regardless of which one tops which.

----------


## Blind Wedjat

The Black Panther comparisons were expected and inevitable. The movie was too popular and both are 2018 superhero movies.

Personally, I love it. This is what I wanted anyway. Getting two great movies for my favourite characters is what I wanted. I hope the comparisons don't hurt the reviews though.

----------


## Robotman

I guess it just shows that comic book movie fans are getting a little spoiled. Something like the Aquaman trailer would have received a way more of positive response even a year or two ago. But I guess it’s gotten to the point where fans have seen almost everything and it’s more difficult to impress people. I don’t think superhero movies will die out any time soon but we’re well passed the point where standard superhero cgi action will thrill the masses.

----------


## jertz666

> I don't see any major disparity between how Aquaman and Shazam are being received, but I'd like to point out that Shazam also has the added advantage of working off the goodwill garnered by Aquaman (if Aquaman is indeed of impressive quality and well-received).
> 
> In the long run, if both movies are successful, it's great for the DC Films brand, regardless of which one tops which.



The Aquaman trailer is still trending #1 at YouTube.   Every YouTube response I've seen for both Aquaman and Shazam trailers have been very positive.    I prefer Aquaman for its epic feel but I'm still not 100% behind Jason Momoa.   Like the other DCEU actors, I feel he has limited range as an actor.

On a side note, Teen Titans Go is at 100% fresh at Rotten Tomatoes right now .. granted it's only at 10 reviews but it already includes reviews from major industry papers like Hollywood Reporter and Variety.   It's too early to tell but this movie might end up being good.

BTW, Have you guys seen the Conan skit posted 4 days ago?  It takes shots at the DCEU  but it's so funny that I can forgive it.    

"Batman Wants To Join The Marvel Universe - CONAN on TBS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPV3huvxDy8

Laugh all you want, Tony Stark, three years from now you'll be begging to join the DC universe.  : )

----------


## Robotman

I’ve heard a lot of positive reviews for the Aquaman trailer. A lot of the negativity may be coming from the Facebook and Twitter comments which are both usually 90% hate (of everything).

----------


## Holt

> Laugh all you want, Tony Stark, three years from now you'll be begging to join the DC universe.  : )


Eh, I wouldn't go that far. But that said it is rather funny that only a few days after that skit aired, WB unveiled three movies that answer most of its complaints, particularly on the heroes constantly being sad and the movies being bleak and joyless front. Momoa and Levi both were jovial as hell in those trailers.

----------


## Carabas

> Eh, I wouldn't go that far. But that said it is rather funny that only a few days after that skit aired, WB unveiled three movies that answer most of its complaints, particularly on the heroes constantly being sad and the movies being bleak and joyless front. Momoa and Levi both were jovial as hell in those trailers.


Who knows? There's a decent chance that in three years Tony Stark won't even be a part of the MCU anymore.

----------


## SuperiorIronman

> The Aquaman trailer is still trending #1 at YouTube.   Every YouTube response I've seen for both Aquaman and Shazam trailers have been very positive.    I prefer Aquaman for its epic feel but I'm still not 100% behind Jason Momoa.   Like the other DCEU actors, I feel he has limited range as an actor.
> 
> On a side note, Teen Titans Go is at 100% fresh at Rotten Tomatoes right now .. granted it's only at 10 reviews but it already includes reviews from major industry papers like Hollywood Reporter and Variety.   It's too early to tell but this movie might end up being good.
> 
> BTW, Have you guys seen the Conan skit posted 4 days ago?  It takes shots at the DCEU  but it's so funny that I can forgive it.    
> 
> "Batman Wants To Join The Marvel Universe - CONAN on TBS"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPV3huvxDy8
> ...


Careful, we've been down this road before. Unfounded optimism leads to disappointment.

----------


## KCJ506

I just have to say that I think this, a Flash movie and a solo Batman film should have came out before Justice League.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Nobody I know likes the Aquaman trailer. Sorta takes the air out of the balloon a bit. Keep hearing the Black Panther ripoff thing too. The frustrating thing was Aquaman finished filming before BP but post has been so long.


Everyone I know loves the Aquaman trailer, and it's trending #1 on YouTube and (last I checked) #2 on US Twitter behind Shazam!

----------


## El_Gato

> Who knows? There's a decent chance that in three years Tony Stark won't even be a part of the MCU anymore.


Especially with the rumor that IronHeart will be getting a movie as his successor...

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> I guess it just shows that comic book movie fans are getting a little spoiled. Something like the Aquaman trailer would have received a way more of positive response even a year or two ago. But I guess its gotten to the point where fans have seen almost everything and its more difficult to impress people. I dont think superhero movies will die out any time soon but were well passed the point where standard superhero cgi action will thrill the masses.


I saw BP, and I haven't ever seen anything like Aquaman.  If BP fans want to hate, that's fine.  It's not like his story is original, either. Family members fighting over a throne isn't even original in the MCU.

----------


## jertz666

> Careful, we've been down this road before. Unfounded optimism leads to disappointment.


Touché.   When it comes to the DCEU,  I've had my heart broken more often than not.

----------


## jertz666

> I saw BP, and I haven't ever seen anything like Aquaman.  If BP fans want to hate, that's fine.  It's not like his story is original, either. Family members fighting over a throne isn't even original in the MCU.


Haven't we been through this before?   When the Wonder Woman trailer came out, there were so many comparisons to the first Captain America.   And now, nobody cares.   History repeats itself.

----------


## Holt

> I just have to say that I think this, a Flash movie and a solo Batman film should have came out before Justice League.


I don't think anyone disagrees that in hindsight this universe was rushed as shit. Even Henry Cavill recently came out and said he felt Superman should've gotten a sequel to better establish the character before they threw him into a crossover with Batman.




> Careful, we've been down this road before. Unfounded optimism leads to disappointment.


The difference is that I have far more confidence in Wan and Sandberg than I did with any of the previous DCEU filmmakers who weren't Patty Jenkins.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

I sorta think they should recast Batman, flash and even Superman (as much as I like Cavill) just to distance themselves from the worst parts of the Snyderverse. Not necessarily a reboot, but just move forward with the new actors, Gal Gadot and Momoa, and do not reference the past movies other than they know each other.

I think the reason people are more willing to get excited for Shazam over Aquaman, despite aquaman's trailer being objectively more epic, is because Shazam has zero stains from Snyder. 

Get Armie Hammer for Superman and see if Bradley Cooper wants to take on the Flash

----------


## Black_Adam

I mean if you reach far enough I guess you can say Aquaman is a ripoff of every Superhero movie then? So they both have a "side-characters with a ridiculous mask"? firstly Black Manta is wearing a *helmet* he has worn since the character's inception, Killmonger wears a mask for one 5 minute scene... It's pretty pathetic.

----------


## Jokerz79

> I sorta think they should recast Batman, flash and even Superman (as much as I like Cavill) just to distance themselves from the worst parts of the Snyderverse. Not necessarily a reboot, but just move forward with the new actors, Gal Gadot and Momoa, and do not reference the past movies other than they know each other.
> 
> I think the reason people are more willing to get excited for Shazam over Aquaman, despite aquaman's trailer being objectively more epic, is because Shazam has zero stains from Snyder. 
> 
> Get Armie Hammer for Superman and see if Bradley Cooper wants to take on the Flash


He's only voice so I don't know if it effects him but Hemsworth admitted last year MCU actors aren't allowed to do DCEU films.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Snyder is now to the DCEU/WoDC what Burton was to Batman Series with the Schumacher films.


Except unlike Burton, his fingerprints and collaboration is still in effect.

----------


## Holt

Eh. The Schumacher films had callbacks to Burton's stuff as well. I don't see Snyder having too much of a say/voice going forward. We already saw Wonder Woman and its sequel ignore/retcon stuff from Batman v. Superman, so I'm not expecting future films to be all that beholden to his stuff. He has a producer credit on a few of them, but that's likely a token platitude more than anything.

What we saw at Comic-Con yesterday seemed very blatantly like WB drawing a line in the sand and trying to market to people who didn't like the previous flicks.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't think anyone disagrees that in hindsight this universe was rushed as shit. Even Henry Cavill recently came out and said he felt Superman should've gotten a sequel to better establish the character before they threw him into a crossover with Batman.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that I have far more confidence in Wan and Sandberg than I did with any of the previous DCEU filmmakers who weren't Patty Jenkins.


I can understand Wan, but I don't get the confidence in Sandberg.

----------


## Holt

> I can understand Wan, but I don't get the confidence in Sandberg.


As of right now he's saying all the right things in interviews, and nothing I've seen in the promotional material or trailers so far has set off my alarm bells in the way that some of the stuff for Suicide Squad, JL and BVS did.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Eh. The Schumacher films had callbacks to Burton's stuff as well. I don't see Snyder having too much of a say/voice going forward. We already saw Wonder Woman and its sequel ignore/retcon stuff from Batman v. Superman, so I'm not expecting future films to be all that beholden to his stuff. He has a producer credit on a few of them, but that's likely a token platitude more than anything.
> 
> What we saw at Comic-Con yesterday seemed very blatantly like WB drawing a line in the sand and trying to market to people who didn't like the previous flicks.





> Eh. The Schumacher films had callbacks to Burton's stuff as well. I don't see Snyder having too much of a say/voice going forward. We already saw Wonder Woman and its sequel ignore/retcon stuff from Batman v. Superman, so I'm not expecting future films to be all that beholden to his stuff.


My point was that a lot franchises change things retroactively. Even as a fan of Snyder's movies, I felt it was wrong to say WW exiled herself for a 100 years, and expected that to be retconned.

Also, why would we expect the upcoming DC movies to be like Snyder movies? Even prior to this "rebranding", only the Snyder movies felt like Snyder movies. Wan was always going to do his own thing. Patty as well. Everyone who knows Shazam knows the movie was going to be lighthearted; it's about a child that can turn into a superhero by saying "Shazam!".

Matt Reeves' movie, the New Gods movie and Joker movie will bring back that darker, serious tone.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> As of right now he's saying all the right things in interviews, and nothing I've seen in the promotional material or trailers so far has set off my alarm bells in the way that some of the stuff for Suicide Squad, JL and BVS did.


Sounds like he's just playing it safe as hell to me.

----------


## Holt

> Sounds like he's just playing it safe as hell to me.


Or he just gets the character. Everything I'm seeing so far has me optimistic.

----------


## Gaastra

And here we go again. Sigh. This time from screen rant.


https://screenrant.com/aquaman-movie...on-killmonger/

----------


## Ascended

> And here we go again. Sigh. This time from screen rant.
> 
> https://screenrant.com/aquaman-movie...on-killmonger/


DC movies have been compared (unfavorably) to Marvel's since RDJ said "I am Iron Man." This is nothing new. 

And honestly, I feel like it's largely WB's fault. They've put out what, five movies so far? They've had ample opportunity to prove themselves and carve out their own niche. The majority of their films haven't been successful. Of course the blog media is going to take every opportunity to bash on them. It's easy clicks. If WB had been competent, this kind of discussion would've died out long ago.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Why is a Mosasaur here? And I mean besides trying to reel people in from Jurassic World. They went extinct millennia ago, but you mean to tell me nobody ever noticed because you would get things like corpses washing ashore. Or do they just exist and Mosasaur are still around in the DCEU and you can just find one at seaworld? I'm willing to let certain things slide like the literal seahorses because that has some basis in the franchise and could be argued was native to the region that is Atlantis. Mosasaurs lacked boundaries. They are found all over the world and for a species we actually know about, and we know it went extinct, just happens to be in Atlantis and only Atlantis. 
> 
> I get that it's a superhero movie, but that's like if in Batman Begins a pterodactyl flew around the city. Why is this here? That is on several levels retarded even for a superhero movie.


Its really not that outrageous. For one, its kind of an old adage at this point that we know less about our own oceans than we do about outer space. On a regular basis, scientists discover new species in the ocean, some of which were thought only to be myths before that. For example, giant and colossal squids were thought to be the stuff of legends up until the 20th century and the first images of a giant squid weren't taken until 2004 and one wasn't filmed until 2012. Secondly, how many stories are there of sea monsters and sea dragons out there? The Loch Ness monster is probably the most famous example of this and cryptozoologists (not that I put much stock in them) have theorized that such sightings are surviving plesiosaurs who have somehow managed to maintain their existence hidden from detection by humans.

So, in a world built on myth and fantasy, its not hard to say that there are a few sea creatures still swimming around.

----------


## capNthor

> DC movies have been compared (unfavorably) to Marvel's since RDJ said "I am Iron Man." This is nothing new. 
> 
> And honestly, I feel like it's largely WB's fault. They've put out what, five movies so far? They've had ample opportunity to prove themselves and carve out their own niche. The majority of their films haven't been successful. Of course the blog media is going to take every opportunity to bash on them. It's easy clicks. If WB had been competent, this kind of discussion would've died out long ago.


Ive seen dozens of people say Aquaman stole from BP and Thor. Yet none are saying that his origin story is almost identically plagiarized from Namors.

----------


## Ishmael

Watched both and loved them.  

Comic fans complaining about this are like old people bitching about getting tart cherry juice instead of prune juice with their pills.  The films look fun.

----------


## Ascended

> I’ve seen dozens of people say Aquaman stole from BP and Thor. Yet none are saying that his origin story is almost identically plagiarized from Namor’s.


Because Namor isn't a movie property. >shrug<

DC was making superhero movies long before Marvel even dared dream that big, but Marvel is huge now. DC failed to beat them to the punch in the modern century of movies and now every move they make is going to be compared to the Avengers. And since DC couldn't manage five films without screwing most of them up and Marvel is rocking something like 20 straight hits, DC isn't going to come out looking very good anytime soon.

----------


## capNthor

> Because Namor isn't a movie property. >shrug<
> 
> DC was making superhero movies long before Marvel even dared dream that big, but Marvel is huge now. DC failed to beat them to the punch in the modern century of movies and now every move they make is going to be compared to the Avengers. And since DC couldn't manage five films without screwing most of them up and Marvel is rocking something like 20 straight hits, DC isn't going to come out looking very good anytime soon.


Exactly. These two have been taking from each other since go. Its just funny that they would narrowly point out and complain about similar plot elements from other movies, when Aquaman literally replicated the Namor origin almost to a tee. But he doesnt have a movie so none the wiser. Wonder what the twitter response to the inevitable Namor film appearance will be!

----------


## Robotman

It’s nice to see that both Aquaman and Shazam had well put together trailers. WB/DC has had a few bad trailers over the last number years, going all the way back to Green Lantern which I feel was one of the worst trailers ever. 

WB needs to hire whoever did the Godzilla: King of the Monster trailer! That thing was fantastic.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

:Big Grin: 



https://twitter.com/MessyPandas/stat...11108932411397

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Jeffrey Dean Morgan Unsure Of His Future As BATMAN Now Zack Snyder Has Left The DC Extended Universe: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/the_f...iverse-a162399

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Jeffrey Dean Morgan Unsure Of His Future As BATMAN Now Zack Snyder Has Left The DC Extended Universe: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/the_f...iverse-a162399


So why name it "Flashpoint" then? Sigh. Flashpoint, Hush, DoS all overrated stories that constantly get milked.

----------


## dietrich

Loved both the Aquaman and Shazam trailer.

Shazam seemed almost more like a parody or kids film.

----------


## Aioros22

> Its really not that outrageous. For one, its kind of an old adage at this point that we know less about our own oceans than we do about outer space. On a regular basis, scientists discover new species in the ocean, some of which were thought only to be myths before that. For example, giant and colossal squids were thought to be the stuff of legends up until the 20th century and the first images of a giant squid weren't taken until 2004 and one wasn't filmed until 2012. Secondly, how many stories are there os sea monsters and sea dragons out there? The Loch Ness monster is probably the most famous example of this and cryptozoologists (not that I put much stock in them) have theorized that such sightings are surviving plesiosaurs who have somehow managed to maintain their existence hidden from detection by humans.
> 
> So, in a world built on myth and fantasy, its not hard to say that there are a few sea creatures still swimming around.


Agreed, it`s a rather stupid point to try to rationalize. Why is a Manosaur there and why is this set-up being compared to Batman Begins. This is the sort of ridiculous and dumfounded reachings I can`t take seriousy and overly suspect is just to grab some attention online. 

Because Dorothy, this ain`t Kansas. 

Complain about the quipping one-liners (will there be too many?) the tropes (we`ve seen almost all of them before in literature) or some CGI shots not looking finished (likely they aren`t, the movie is only being released December) but do not dare to lower brain cells by comparing what is not to be compared.

----------


## Aioros22

> I’ve seen dozens of people say Aquaman stole from BP and Thor. Yet none are saying that his origin story is almost identically plagiarized from Namor’s


He`s got no movie and if they ever make a major release it will be seen as plagirizing _this_ one. You see the same with BP and Aquaman comparisons. The political power struggle involving brothers for the right to rule (a Throne) was part of Aquaman`s mythos years before they did the same to Panther, if not decades. But which movie came out first? That`s right. 

That said, even in comics, Namor`s ties to Atlantis didn`t come out until the 60s with FF#4. Aquaman got pretty much every origin possible covered over the years, to being a human who learns to fight and breath underwater due to Atlantean science/magic research, a hybrid and fully Atlantean. I wouldn`t actually mind them daring to go with the first origin he ever had but the most commonly used simply explains his way and plot connections to Atlantis much faster..

That and they're obviously drawing world building from Johns run.

----------


## Gaastra

Sigh! OK this is getting silly now. These two videos are making the rounds.

----------


## Gaastra

"is this black panther?" Looks like this is going to be a big struggle for the film. In black panthers shadow.

----------


## Robotman

> Sigh! OK this is getting silly now. These two videos are making the rounds.


This is probably going to be the talking point that most people will use who are trying to disparage the movie. I guess we just have to remind them that Black Panther didn’t invent the story concept of siblings fighting for the throne or one character as a rightful ruler of a kingdom. I mean, his name is Arthur! It’s clearly a reference to Camelot. A story slightly older than the Black Panther film.

----------


## Starter Set

If the movie is good this kind of BP comparisons are not going to matter much. Let people talk. 

Now, if the movie turns out to be a disappointment, oh boy, we are going to hear about that for years lol.

----------


## Arsenal

> So why name it "Flashpoint" then? Sigh. Flashpoint, Hush, DoS all overrated stories that constantly get milked.


Didn't the Flashpoint name get dropped already from the Flash solo movie anyway?

----------


## Johnny

> "is this black panther?" Looks like this is going to be a big struggle for the film. In black panthers shadow.


This type of idiots must be saying that about every comic book movie with similar protagonists. It's annoying, but it is what it is.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I don't think this will amount to much unless the critics get involved when the embargo lifts. Right now, I'm seeing WAY more positivity about Aquaman. A few people making inane comparisons aren't going to change that.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This is probably going to be the talking point that most people will use who are trying to disparage the movie. I guess we just have to remind them that Black Panther didn’t invent the story concept of siblings fighting for the throne or one character as a rightful ruler of a kingdom. I mean, his name is Arthur! It’s clearly a reference to Camelot. A story slightly older than the Black Panther film.


Right. Either *every* movie with a similar theme gets slammed or none of them should. But we all know this won't be the case, of course.

----------


## Colossus1980

I guess it was inevitable that the GA would start thinking some super hero movies just look the same and are rip-offs of others.  Shame.

----------


## Badou

I think some of it has to do with how recent Black Panther came out and how big a hit it was. So BP is still very fresh in people's minds. The two main characters are very different in how they come across though, so that will set the two apart even if the stories and visual beats are very similar.

----------


## FlashEarthOne

> Didn't the Flashpoint name get dropped already from the Flash solo movie anyway?


Yes it did.  DC seems to be course correcting and it will probably help them financially.   Although the die hards fans of the previous incarnation now seem to be disparaging the new direction. 




> This type of idiots must be saying that about every comic book movie with similar protagonists. It's annoying, but it is what it is.


It is one of the downsides of the internet and youtube.




> This is probably going to be the talking point that most people will use who are trying to disparage the movie. I guess we just have to remind them that Black Panther didn’t invent the story concept of siblings fighting for the throne or one character as a rightful ruler of a kingdom. I mean, his name is Arthur! It’s clearly a reference to Camelot. A story slightly older than the Black Panther film.


It is a weak point.

----------


## Elmo

We should probably change this thread title since the official name is Worlds of DC now

----------


## Arsenal

> We should probably change this thread title since the official name is Worlds of DC now


It's not. The DC film universe still has no official name.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-movie-1127469

Robert De Niro is currently in talks to join the Joaquin Phoenix Joker film.

----------


## gbshabo

Good Idea or Bad Idea:  What if Warners approached James Gunn to direct a DC property (maybe Suicide Squad)?

----------


## Colossus1980

> Good Idea or Bad Idea:  What if Warners approached James Gunn to direct a DC property (maybe Suicide Squad)?



He had cosmic ideas beyond GOTG.  So how about him working on GLC or LOSH?

----------


## byrd156

DC needs to pick up James Gunn. He's an incredible talent that can help form a section of the DCEU whether its cosmic or whatever. Disney dropping him was a stupid move by them and totally reactionary. This whole situation was politically motivated, there is no way in hell Disney "discovered" the tweets. They were on a public forum and Gunn has apologized for them years ago but it's done now. I want Gunn back at Marvel but I think that ship has sailed. This is a great opportunity for WB/DC.

----------


## byrd156

> "is this black panther?" Looks like this is going to be a big struggle for the film. In black panthers shadow.


I had a similar thought when Black Panther came out, I think Disney and DC are in a race to be first right now. By first I mean movies about concepts or characters that are similar so when the next one comes out it will be compared to whoever's movie came out first. The two characters have very similar concepts. Rulers of reclusive nations that are leagues ahead of the world through their tech. Yes they are very different characters but the average movie goer is going to compare the two.

----------


## byrd156

> I guess it was inevitable that the GA would start thinking some super hero movies just look the same and are rip-offs of others.  Shame.


It is inevitable so that means there will be more pressure on the filmmakers to get these characters right. Sure concepts can be close or share similarities but as long as the characters, set pieces, etc are different and unique I doubt people will complain.

----------


## Confuzzled

Some updates over the last couple of days:

Birds of Prey will shoot in California and will enjoy substantial tax benefits from the state

WB is rumored to be looking at a "Kristen Stewart type" actress to play Barbara Gordon in the Batgirl film (though no word on whether Babs is Batgirl or Oracle)

Spider-Man: Homecoming's (first) Shocker actor Logan Marshall-Green wants to play Mister Miracle and Ava DuVernay has shown her interest

----------


## BlackClaw

A Kristen Stewart type? Um, no. Let’s leave twilight in the past where it rightfully belongs.

----------


## Agent Z

> A Kristen Stewart type? Um, no. Lets leave twilight in the past where it rightfully belongs.


A Kristin Stewart type doesn't necessarily mean Twilight. She actually is a good actress.

----------


## Starter Set

> A Kristin Stewart type doesn't necessarily mean Twilight. She actually is a good actress.


Now that's a bold claim.

----------


## Agent Z

> Now that's a bold claim.


See her performances in The Runaways, Catch That Kid, Panic Room and Adventureland.

----------


## jump

> See her performances in The Runaways, Catch That Kid, Panic Room and Adventureland.


Why are Panic Room & Catch That Kid being included, she was 10ish years old at the time.

----------


## Agent Z

> Why are Panic Room & Catch That Kid being included, she was 10is years old at the time.


I feel she gave some good performances in those films.

----------


## Gaastra

> I had a similar thought when Black Panther came out, I think Disney and DC are in a race to be first right now. By first I mean movies about concepts or characters that are similar so when the next one comes out it will be compared to whoever's movie came out first. The two characters have very similar concepts. Rulers of reclusive nations that are leagues ahead of the world through their tech. Yes they are very different characters but the average movie goer is going to compare the two.


Think about how bad it will be with darkseid now that thanos made it to the movies first even though darkseid came first. He will be called a thanos rip-off by non comic readers.   It's that joke in the teen titans go to the movie trailer about slade getting called Deadpool. "I was first." Cyborg "nah your Deadpool."  Then again marvel will have that trouble with sub-mariner if they can ever get the rights back.  He came first but aquaman beat him to the big-screen and he will be called a aquaman rip-off by non fans.

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Victor Stone and his mom from the Justice League movie that you'll never see...



https://vimeo.com/266969310

----------


## Johnny

> A Kristen Stewart type? Um, no. Let’s leave twilight in the past where it rightfully belongs.


Well, she's had her moments.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Raijin

> Some updates over the last couple of days:
> 
> 
> Spider-Man: Homecoming's (first) Shocker actor Logan Marshall-Green wants to play Mister Miracle and Ava DuVernay has shown her interest


Wow. For a film universe that is considered to be dead by pessimists, a lot of actors sure express a lot of interests in these movies and characters.




> Now that's a bold claim.


Stewart has been turning in solid performances lately but people are still stuck on Twilight.

----------


## Robotman

> Victor Stone and his mom from the Justice League movie that you'll never see...
> 
> 
> 
> https://vimeo.com/266969310


Meh, I don’t think we’re missing much. In the Snyder cut isn’t Victor responsible for the car accident that killed his mother and disfigured him? There is no need to make a tragic origin even more depressing. May as well just have Joe Chill slap Bruce around and tell him Santa Claus isn’t real right after he murders his parents, since we’re piling on the misery.

----------


## Starter Set

> May as well just have Joe Chill slap Bruce around and tell him Santa Claus isn’t real right after he murders his parents


I really hope Dan Didio isn't reading this forum. He would love that idea.

----------


## Agent Z

> Meh, I dont think were missing much. In the Snyder cut isnt Victor responsible for the car accident that killed his mother and disfigured him? There is no need to make a tragic origin even more depressing. May as well just have Joe Chill slap Bruce around and tell him Santa Claus isnt real right after he murders his parents, since were piling on the misery.


Where did you read Vic was responsible?

----------


## John Ossie

> Well, she's had her moments.


There are times where she looks pretty I agree.

Back to the topic of the thread though LOL.

I saw the trailer for the new Aquaman film today, I know I'm late on that but it looked alright to me.  Anyone else?

----------


## Frontier

> Some updates over the last couple of days:
> 
> Birds of Prey will shoot in California and will enjoy substantial tax benefits from the state


That's always a filming plus  :Smile: .



> WB is rumored to be looking at a "Kristen Stewart type" actress to play Barbara Gordon in the Batgirl film (though no word on whether Babs is Batgirl or Oracle)


I hope that means there leaning towards a young adult-type actress rather then going for someone like Stewart circa-_Twilight._ 

I also hope that doesn't mean we're getting Burnside Batgirl. 



> Spider-Man: Homecoming's (first) Shocker actor Logan Marshall-Green wants to play Mister Miracle and Ava DuVernay has shown her interest


I haven't seen him in much but I'm not sure if he has the chops to pull off Scott Free. 



> Where did you read Vic was responsible?


It was mentioned in the apparent leak of all the Snyder footage that was cut from the movie.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's always a filming plus .
> 
> I hope that means there leaning towards a young adult-type actress rather then going for someone like Stewart circa-_Twilight._ 
> 
> I also hope that doesn't mean we're getting Burnside Batgirl. 
> 
> I haven't seen him in much but I'm not sure if he has the chops to pull off Scott Free. 
> 
> It was mentioned in the apparent leak of all the Snyder footage that was cut from the movie.


Any confirmation this leak was real?

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

> Any confirmation this leak was real?


Nah, the only leak proven to be real is this one from Resetera: https://www.reddit.com/r/DCEUleaks/c...l_cut_details/

----------


## Gaastra

And the one movie we all thought would bomb on that week got released a new trailer getting lots of praise online. It's now in the running! Man that week is going to be nasty with all those big films. Aquaman just got another big threat to worry about.

----------


## Punisher007

> Wow. For a film universe that is considered to be dead by pessimists, a lot of actors sure express a lot of interests in these movies and characters.
> 
> 
> 
> *Stewart has been turning in solid performances lately but people are still stuck on Twilight.*




Yeah she's been doing those indie films over and Europe and getting a lot of praise/awards for them.  Also she was good in stuff like _The Runaways, Panic Room, etc_ already.

So while she wouldn't be even close to my first choice, I wouldn't be reflexively opposed to the casting either.

----------


## Johnny

> And the one movie we all thought would bomb on that week got released a new trailer getting lots of praise online. It's now in the running! Man that week is going to be nasty with all those big films. Aquaman just got another big threat to worry about.


Relax, the King is gonna kick those jabronies' asses all over the place.

----------


## Confuzzled

Didn't Kristen Stewart win some major French award recently? I think she kind of fits Oracle or a post-Killing Joke/Gail Simone New 52 take on Batgirl more than Burnside Babs!




> I haven't seen him in much but I'm not sure if he has the chops to pull off Scott Free.


There was a lot of praise for a small budget film he did recently titled Upgrade.

----------


## Punisher007

> *Didn't Kristen Stewart win some major French award recently? I think she kind of fits Oracle or a post-Killing Joke/Gail Simone New 52 take on Batgirl more than Burnside Babs!
> 
> *
> 
> There was a lot of praise for a small budget film he did recently titled Upgrade.


She won the *Cesar Award* for her movie _The Clouds of Sils Maria_.  She's one of only two American Actresses to even be nominated for it in the last 30 years.  And she's one of only two American performers (male or female) to win it (Adrien Brody won it back in 2003).

----------


## Starter Set

Not bad, not bad. That's quite the prestigious award.

----------


## Johnny

Yeah, while not my preferred choice, Kristen Stewart is hardly the worst potential candidate to play Barbara Gordon.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, while not my preferred choice, Kristen Stewart is hardly the worst potential candidate to play Barbara Gordon.


Though I don't think she's really a good choice for the role, personally.

----------


## Punisher007

She'd be fine.  But my preferred choices right now would be Jane Levy or Mary Elizabeth Winstead.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> Not bad, not bad. That's quite the prestigious award.


Yeah, its considered like the French equivalent of the Oscar or the BAFTA.

----------


## Styles

Insecures Natasha Rothwell Joins Wonder Woman 1984

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Early Flash concept-art for BvS...





https://www.instagram.com/jsmarantz/

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Early Flash concept-art for BvS...





https://www.instagram.com/jsmarantz/

----------


## Frontier

I am still awaiting a sleek, comic-accurate, Flash costume...

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I am still awaiting a sleek, comic-accurate, Flash costume...


Early JL set reports did mention a second Flash costume, but nothing of the sort did show up in the theatrical cut. I wonder if WB removed it as to distance connections with JL in future films, or if Snyder himself removed it just in case the Flash solo director at the time wanted to do their own thing.

----------


## Frontier

> Early JL set reports did mention a second Flash costume, but nothing of the sort did show up in the theatrical cut. I wonder if WB removed it as to distance connections with JL in future films, or if Snyder himself removed it just in case the Flash solo director at the time wanted to do their own thing.


I think it was confirmed that they kept the Flash costume as-is to give the solo Flash director free-reign to do what they want, although I don't think the "second suit" would be like the classic Aquaman suit or the Shazam costume.

----------


## Beantownbrown

RUMOR: DCs Legion Of Doom Plans Have Been Shelved




> Revenge of the Fans reports that DC Films has shelved plans for a Legion of Doom movie.
> 
> At the beginning of the year, Warner Bros. promoted Walter Hamada to oversee the studios DC Films division. Now, Revenge of the Fans reports that Hamada has shelved the previous leaderships plans for a Legion of Doom film.
> 
> According to the outlet, Hamada is focused on developing the forthcoming DC films as standalone stories and does not see the point of building towards a super-villain crossover for the time being. The concept had been teased during a post-credits scene for Justice League in which Lex Luthor summons Deathstroke to propose forming their own team and Black Mantas membership in the supervillain group was reportedly going to be set up in a post-credit scene for Aquaman before plans changed.
> 
> The outlet also adds that a crossover event like Batman v Superman or Justice League may not occur for several years.
> 
> Warner Bros. and DC Films is currently developing several films, including a Flash standalone movie, The New Gods, Man of Steel 2, Nightwing, Cyborg, Gotham City Sirens, Birds of Prey, Black Adam, Booster Gold, Justice League Dark, Green Lantern Corps, Suicide Squad 2, Batgirl, Blackhawk, and a standalone Joker origin film separate from the shared cinematic universe.

----------


## Frontier

> RUMOR: DC’s ‘Legion Of Doom’ Plans Have Been Shelved


I don't know what's more expected, DC pursuing a Legion of Doom film so soon or that the would quickly cut it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

In the past few days, there have been several "rumors" about Reeves' The Batman from the usual bloggers. It'll be set 15/20 years in the past (if WB decides to connect it to the main DCEU), Bruce Wayne will be in his early years of his superhero career (they're looking for a cheaper actor to play him), The Penguin is one of the villains, Calendar Man is another name tossed around, Harvey Dent is in the movie but not as Two-Face yet.

Most is covered in these tweets and responses from the editor-in-chief of GWW/Omega Underground...

https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...89351214911488

https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...89704174014464

https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...93098099957760

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I don't mind Penguin and Calendar Man, but I feel like we already got fantastic Year One and Long Halloween adaptations.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Keep in mind the site that broke these rumors doesn't have too great a track record - in the past they've predicted an extended Whedon version of Justice League and the Aquaman trailer debut at WonderCon and neither exactly happened.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Keep in mind the site that broke these rumors doesn't have too great a track record - in the past they've predicted an extended Whedon version of Justice League and the Aquaman trailer debut at WonderCon and neither exactly happened.


Yeah, they even said a Man of Steel 2 announcement was right around the corner after Justice League and that didn't happen either. While a "Legion of Doom" standalone film sounds less wise, the best way of saving Justice League as a franchise on the big screen is to build the Legion recruitment up until a JL2 and then have the story of that movie through the Legion's perspective. These larger than life villains interacting with each other and plotting and scheming together to take down their respective heroes can be undiluted entertainment. Not to mention something that hasn't been done before on the big screen in such a crossover manner.

And a Legion buildup allows a lot of breathing room between Justice League and Justice League 2.

----------


## Robotman

Another Batman origin story would be ridiculous. We dont need to see the Waynes get shot on screen yet again. If theyve been working and rewriting the script for this long and the best they come up with is an adaptation of Year One, I give up.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Yeah, they even said a Man of Steel 2 announcement was right around the corner after Justice League and that didn't happen either. While a "Legion of Doom" standalone film sounds less wise, the best way of saving Justice League as a franchise on the big screen is to build the Legion recruitment up until a JL2 and then have the story of that movie through the Legion's perspective. These larger than life villains interacting with each other and plotting and scheming together to take down their respective heroes can be undiluted entertainment. Not to mention something that hasn't been done before on the big screen in such a crossover manner.
> 
> And a Legion buildup allows a lot of breathing room between Justice League and Justice League 2.


Yeah I’m down with your vision. Stand-alone hero films and parallel Legion team-building would be unique and allow much needed conceptual breathing room.

----------


## jump

Year One as a source seems odd as a source material as it was really a story about Gordon and most of the Batman stuff was used in Begins. I've still yet to see my favourite scene from that book where Gordon pretends he doesn't know it's Bruce after saving the kid, include that and I'm happy.

----------


## Gaastra

Looks like there is a batgirl short in front of teen titans go to the movies.

----------


## Vakanai

> Looks like there is a batgirl short in front of teen titans go to the movies.


Any info on that? Is it in the Teen Titans Go style, or is it actually interesting?

----------


## Frontier

> Any info on that? Is it in the Teen Titans Go style, or is it actually interesting?


I'm pretty sure it's the _DC Super Hero Girls_ short they showed at Comic-Con.

----------


## Jokerz79

Johns talking about Green Lantern Corps with Collider

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

Extended Wonder Woman vs Steppenwolf fight: https://twitter.com/newsflxsh/status...91416289030144

At the rate with which new deleted scenes/footages pop up, in a few years fans will be able to put together the Snyder Cut by themselves.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Coal Tiger

> Extended Wonder Woman vs Steppenwolf fight: https://twitter.com/newsflxsh/status...91416289030144
> 
> At the rate with which new deleted scenes/footages pop up, in a few years fans will be able to put together the Snyder Cut by themselves.


I always wondered what Wonder Woman would look like if she was made of rubber.

----------


## simicartan

hard to follow all but is there a confirmation that Armie Hammer will play Green Lantern?

----------


## Carabas

> hard to follow all but is there a confirmation that Armie Hammer will play Green Lantern?


He has confirmed that he's not involved in even the slightest way a couple of times.

----------


## Johnny

> hard to follow all but is there a confirmation that Armie Hammer will play Green Lantern?


No that was just another silly rumor that he had fun with for awhile, because apparently it's a blast to mock GL these days. When he was asked if there was any truth to it, he said no on a few separate occasions.

----------


## kjn

> Extended Wonder Woman vs Steppenwolf fight: https://twitter.com/newsflxsh/status...91416289030144
> 
> At the rate with which new deleted scenes/footages pop up, in a few years fans will be able to put together the Snyder Cut by themselves.


That looked exceedingly video game-y, both in the static sideways view and in the movements.

----------


## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> I had a similar thought when Black Panther came out, I think Disney and DC are in a race to be first right now. By first I mean movies about concepts or characters that are similar so when the next one comes out it will be compared to whoever's movie came out first. *The two characters have very similar concepts.* Rulers of reclusive nations that are leagues ahead of the world through their tech. Yes they are very different characters but the average movie goer is going to compare the two.


I get what you're saying, but audiences didn't have a problem with Iron Man and Doctor Strange having almost the exact same character and arc in their respective solo outings, and they're in the same universe. Everything in this genre is variations of a theme.

I'm sure some people will see the similarities, but if the movie looks good and gets good word of mouth, it'll do well.

*EDIT:* I *ADORED* both the _Aquaman_ and _Shazam_ trailers, for the record.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I get what you're saying, but audiences didn't have a problem with Iron Man and Doctor Strange having almost the exact same character and arc in their respective solo outings, and they're in the same universe. Everything in this genre is variations of a theme.
> 
> I'm sure some people will see the similarities, but if the movie looks good and gets good word of mouth, it'll do well.


As I pointed out a week ago, every RT critic should be officially notified of Aquaman's history. If any critic then mentions how _Aquaman_ is stealing from _Black Panther_, then they should be called on their bias.

----------


## Gaastra

And again--

----------


## Gaastra

And again.

----------


## Gaastra

Aquamans nickname on twitter is "wet panther" sigh.






> As I pointed out a week ago, every RT critic should be officially notified of Aquaman's history. If any critic then mentions how Aquaman is stealing from Black Panther, then they should be called on their bias.


Now this I don't agree with.  Movies need to stand out on it's own.  You don't need to read a book, comic or play a game to enjoy a movie.  However if aquaman is a great movie (as it looks like it will be) then people with enjoy it with or without info on the comic.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Now this I don't agree with.  Movies need to stand out on it's own.  You don't need to read a book, comic or play a game to enjoy a movie.  However if aquaman is a great movie (as it looks like it will be) then people with enjoy it with or without info on the comic.


If a critic is stating something factually and unquestionably incorrect, then why shouldn't they be called out on it? If a studio is losing ticket sales over it, then they would be idiotic not to, IMO.

----------


## Gaastra

Don't think it will hurt it to much.  Avatar was a complete rip-off of dances with wolfs and ferngully and it did fine.

----------


## Hawkman

> And again.


Ugh. You know, I sometimes wonder how much differently the DCEU movies might have been received were they released in an era without social media.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Ugh. You know, I sometimes wonder how much differently the DCEU movies might have been received were they released in an era without social media.


Maybe it's good news that Facebook and Twitter are starting to lose massive amounts of money?

----------


## Frontier

I think people are obsessing way too much over this _Aquaman_/_Black Panther_ thing. 

Where it counts I think they are both very different movies.

----------


## Confuzzled

‘Aquaman’ Was The Most Viewed and Talked About Movie Trailer from Comic-Con




> #1 Aquaman
> 
> YouTube views: 47 million
> Facebook views: 52.5 million
> Movie release date: December 21, 2018
> 
> DC’s Aquaman trailer was the most-watched preview of any clip from SDCC media vendors this year, with a whopping 53M Facebook views and 47M YouTube views. The top-performing clip was the official trailer uploaded to Warner Bros. Pictures’ YouTube channel on July 21st — it pulled in about 26.9 million views alone, with 24.4 million arriving in the first three days. Not only did the Aquaman trailer pull in the most views, it also generated the most social media conversations at more than 369K impressions! The buzz around this particular trailer could be attributed to a couple of factors. First of all, the character of Aquaman was already introduced in both Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and Justice League, which has viewers primed for his solo movie. Second, despite mostly negative reception of those films, fans seem excited to see actor Jason Momoa perform in his own flick, with some believers even claiming he and Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman will redeem the entire DCEU.


Shazam got the bronze.




> #3 Shazam!
> 
> YouTube views: 36.2 million
> Facebook views: 36.1 million
> Movie release date: April 5, 2019
> 
> It seems Warner Bros. could do no wrong at this year’s Comic-Con! The movie company boasted the second most-watched trailer in terms of views from its upcoming superhero film Shazam! starring Zachary Levi. Unlike the previous two films we’ve looked at (Aquaman and Fantastic Beasts 2), though, the most-watched Shazam! trailer didn’t come from an official Warner Bros. outlet; instead, the top clip came from the FilmSelect Trailer YouTube channel and pulled in 12.1 million total views and a high V3 of 11.3 million. Also, while the film’s combined trailers generated about half as many social conversations as Fantastic Beasts 2 at just over 93K, landing it third on this chart, those impressions were still very positive at 95.1%, a higher percentage than those of the Aquaman reactions.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Ugh. You know, I sometimes wonder how much differently the DCEU movies might have been received were they released in an era without social media.


The Aquaman criticism is stupid because the story is old as time practically. But even without social media I think the past films would had performed the same. Aquaman, Shazam, and WW84 looks to be with winners and hopefully they will be and WB will learn from them and capitalise on it.

----------


## Johnny

> Aquamans nickname on twitter is "wet panther" sigh.


In my opinion people shouldn't take to heart everything they read on that idiot toilet of a platform. Things aren't nearly the same with the actual general movie going audience as twittertards would have us believe. These people don't represent the masses, regardless of how much they like to pretend they do. There's no need to give them acknowledgment that they hardly deserve anyway.

----------


## Jokerz79

Johns on WW84, Aquaman, Green Lantern Corps, & MOS 2.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> If a critic is stating something factually and unquestionably incorrect, then why shouldn't they be called out on it? If a studio is losing ticket sales over it, then they would be idiotic not to, IMO.


The notion that in order to evaluate a movie, you need to take a crash course in comic book history is ridiculous and insulting.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

That interviewer is pretty obnoxious. Anyways, Johns makes it sound like Green Lantern is still far from a sure thing, he's basically been commissioned to write a script and whether WB will even consider making it is still unclear.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The notion that in order to evaluate a movie, you need to take a crash course in comic book history is ridiculous and insulting.


 :Confused: 

I'm not saying they should. I'm saying the *studio* should inform all critics regarding a potential issue with one of their films. IOW, if I as a producer or director know of a potential negative talking point against their product, then inform them otherwise. I'm talking about a paragraph or two, not a doctoral thesis on a specific superhero. 

If I were were in charge, I would send a short e-mail just saying Aquaman had the storyline long before Black Panther had it. That's it. Except for people who want prospective movie goers to be misinformed regarding this, what is the problem here?

----------


## Coal Tiger

> I'm not saying they should. I'm saying the *studio* should inform all critics regarding a potential issue with one of their films. IOW, if I as a producer or director know of a potential negative talking point against their product, then inform them otherwise. I'm talking about a paragraph or two, not a doctoral thesis on a specific superhero. 
> 
> If I were were in charge, I would send a short e-mail just saying Aquaman had the storyline long before Black Panther had it. That's it. Except for people who want prospective movie goers to be misinformed regarding this, what is the problem here?


If Marvel made a Namor movie, should they send out word that he came before Aquaman?  Would it matter?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If Marvel made a Namor movie, should they send out word that he came before Aquaman?  Would it matter?


Well, if the collective message is Sub-Mariner is a ripoff of Aquaman, then maybe they should. Would it hurt anything? Unless it were presented obnoxiously, I couldn't see why it would.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

Johns should not write the script himself...

----------


## Frontier

> Johns should not write the script himself...


I know he chipped in on the Wonder Woman script (at least I remember reading that), but the last time he had a major involvement with a screenplay we had the non-starter that the Batman solo movie has become.

----------


## Jokerz79

> Well, if the collective message is Sub-Mariner is a ripoff of Aquaman, then maybe they should. Would it hurt anything? Unless it were presented obnoxiously, I couldn't see why it would.


James Wan should release a statement of "I saw Black Panther earlier this year and thought to myself damn how can I make Aquaman like this film? Then it dawned on me since Spielberg was in talks for Blackhawks I got Warner Bros to let Steven let me borrow the DeLorean. Then I went back to 2017 and gave myself a new script and bam Aqua Panther was born."  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> James Wan should release a statement of "I saw Black Panther earlier this year and thought to myself damn how can I make Aquaman like this film? Then it dawned on me since Spielberg was in talks for Blackhawks I got Warner Bros to let Steven let me borrow the DeLorean. Then I went back to 2017 and gave myself a new script and bam Aqua Panther was born."


Heh. Well, that might hurt his cause, since that would indicate a serious mental problem.  :Big Grin:

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> And again.


That was actually pretty cool.  People do that with trailers all the time. No biggie.

----------


## FIFTY-TWO (52)

> Don't think it will hurt it to much.  Avatar was a complete rip-off of dances with wolfs and ferngully and it did fine.


Also, people fighting over thrones isn't even original in the MCU.  Thor has done it three times.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Also, people fighting over thrones isn't even original in the MCU.  Thor has done it three times.


That was the basic plot of The Lion King.

----------


## golgi

If Aquaman is good, it's going to be big.




> #1 Aquaman
> 
> YouTube views: 47 million
> Facebook views: 52.5 million
> Movie release date: December 21, 2018
> 
> DC’s Aquaman trailer was the most-watched preview of any clip from SDCC media vendors this year, with a whopping 53M Facebook views and 47M YouTube views. The top-performing clip was the official trailer uploaded to Warner Bros. Pictures’ YouTube channel on July 21st — it pulled in about 26.9 million views alone, with 24.4 million arriving in the first three days. Not only did the Aquaman trailer pull in the most views, it also generated the most social media conversations at more than 369K impressions! The buzz around this particular trailer could be attributed to a couple of factors. First of all, the character of Aquaman was already introduced in both Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and Justice League, which has viewers primed for his solo movie. Second, despite mostly negative reception of those films, fans seem excited to see actor Jason Momoa perform in his own flick, with some believers even claiming he and Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman will redeem the entire DCEU.

----------


## Carabas

> That was the basic plot of The Lion King.


Its the basic plot of practically anything that has royalty as the main character.

----------


## Johnny

> Johns should not write the script himself...


Given WB's track record with writers in the DCEU, they would either bring in someone else to rewrite it or whenever they hire a director, he/she would likely do a rewrite him/herself or just pen a new script altogether. It happened with Flash, with The Batman, obviously with Chris Terrio's JL script, etc. Whatever script Johns ends up delivering, there's a very good chance it's not going to be what we see in theaters.

----------


## Gaastra

> That was the basic plot of The Lion King.



You mean kimba right?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> You mean kimba right?


Yep.  Just figured most people were more familiar with Lion King.

----------


## Vakanai

> You mean kimba right?


Wasn't his name Simba?

----------


## nightrider

> The notion that in order to evaluate a movie, you need to take a crash course in comic book history is ridiculous and insulting.


Youre right but in order to diss a film by accusing it of copying another film then u need basic understanding of the source materials.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Wasn't his name Simba?


He's alluding to the fact that Lion King ripped off a previously existing anime film named Kimba the White Lion



The initial concept art for Lion King even had Simba as a white lion cub and Matthew Broderick, the actor voicing Adult Simba, had even called the film a "Kimba remake".

----------


## Vakanai

> He's alluding to the fact that Lion King ripped off a previously existing anime film named Kimba the White Lion
> 
> 
> 
> The initial concept art for Lion King even had Simba as a white lion cub and Matthew Broderick, the actor voicing Adult Simba, had even called the film a "Kimba remake".


Huh, wouldn't have guessed it. How's it compare?

----------


## kjn

Of course, the themes of the rightful king being deposed and then returning is even older than that. The myth of Seth, Osiris and Isis is probably the best known, but there is probably something even older than that. (I read an analysis that _Black Panther_ borrowed heavily from the Osiris myth, including being covered and revealed to symbolise rebirth.)

So if you steal from something a thousand years old it shows you're deep and cultured, but if it's framed as stealing from something a few year's old it's plagiarisation.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> He's alluding to the fact that Lion King ripped off a previously existing anime film named Kimba the White Lion
> 
> 
> 
> The initial concept art for Lion King even had Simba as a white lion cub and Matthew Broderick, the actor voicing Adult Simba, had even called the film a "Kimba remake".


The television show was on 50 years ago, though I have no memory of watching it as a toddler.

----------


## Aioros22

> Of course, the themes of the rightful king being deposed and then returning is even older than that. The myth of Seth, Osiris and Isis is probably the best known, but there is probably something even older than that. (I read an analysis that _Black Panther_ borrowed heavily from the Osiris myth, including being covered and revealed to symbolise rebirth.)
> 
> So if you steal from something a thousand years old it shows you're deep and cultured, but if it's framed as stealing from something a few year's old it's plagiarisation.


Revisiting the old archetypical story or stories is not why the Lion King is a ripoff. The Lion King is a ripoff because most if not all of the collective visual drappings of the movie, character roles and design included, are obviously taken from Kimba. 

When Disney at the time promotes the movie as the first ever original story that is a play on Hamlet but with animais, as accurate as it may be, they were clearly banking on most people not knowing that concept had already been done by an animation studio before. 

Anyone remembers how when Disney would release a movie in the same year some cheaper studio would release their take on the very same thing? 

Its the same situation in this case, except Disney is anything but cheap.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

According to Mark Hughes at Forbes, there will be no Superman cameo in Shazam and he's heard absolutely nothing about another Superman movie. 

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/30/s...-steel-sequel/

"Superman, I can tell you as of three to four weeks ago, last time I checked in, there is not movement on Superman," Hughes said. "It's not currently sitting on the table as a project that they're looking at moving forward on and there's no expectation of imminent movement on a Superman project... that's the situation."

----------


## Lightning Rider

> According to Mark Hughes at Forbes, there will be no Superman cameo in Shazam and he's heard absolutely nothing about another Superman movie. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/30/s...-steel-sequel/
> 
> "Superman, I can tell you as of three to four weeks ago, last time I checked in, there is not movement on Superman," Hughes said. "It's not currently sitting on the table as a project that they're looking at moving forward on and there's no expectation of imminent movement on a Superman project... that's the situation."


I guess waiting on Cavill means nothing can start moving. But it's good to hear there is a project on the table. Wish there were that cameo though. Would be perfect.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> According to Mark Hughes at Forbes, there will be no Superman cameo in Shazam and he's heard absolutely nothing about another Superman movie. 
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/30/s...-steel-sequel/
> 
> "Superman, I can tell you as of three to four weeks ago, last time I checked in, there is not movement on Superman," Hughes said. "It's not currently sitting on the table as a project that they're looking at moving forward on and there's no expectation of imminent movement on a Superman project... that's the situation."


I guess waiting on Cavill means nothing can start moving. But it's good to hear there is a project on the table. Wish there were that cameo though. Would be perfect.

----------


## Confuzzled

KC Walsh who works for one of the more legit news outlets, _Omega Underground_ , is teasing these 3 actresses on WB's list for Black Canary:

*Blake Lively* (yes, Mrs. Deadpool and _Green Lantern_'s Carol herself)
[IMG]https://em.*************50aa5bdafe8592ff6cc04ed5ba28fe786b644710/68747470733a2f2f73332e616d617a6f6e6177732e636f6d2f  776174747061642d6d656469612d736572766963652f53746f  7279496d6167652f38694e65563866387436586663673d3d2d  3536383237363430372e313532613261383835373632643032  623736303338393031303533362e6a7067?s=fit&w=720&h=7  20[/IMG]

*Vanessa Kirby* (_Mission Impossible: Fallout_, _The Crown_'s Princess Margaret)


Jodie Comer (_Killing Eve_)

----------


## Confuzzled

And apparently the top of the list of Huntress candidates is Alexandria Daddario

----------


## Frontier

Kirby looks the most immediately like Black Canary off-hand in my opinion. 

Kinda surprised they're not leaning towards Rebirth Huntress look-wise.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I'd happily take Lively or Kirby for Dinah.

Alexandra Daddario as Helena? Sold!

Good picks so far.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Double post.

----------


## Confuzzled

Oh and apparently Black Mask is the villain: https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...83803002945537

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Oh and apparently Black Mask is the villain: https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...83803002945537


If that's true, hopefully Black Mask gets more justice done for him here than a certain series of Batman video games. :P

I mean, what do you suppose the odds are of Black Mask at a climatic moment taking off his mask to reveal that he was Jared Leto's Joker the whole time?  :EEK!:

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

these double posts on CBR as of late are quite vexxing!

----------


## Charmed

I like Comer the most out of that list for Black Canary. She's great in Killing Eve.

----------


## Robotman

Kirby looks like she would be a perfect Black Canary. 

Such a bummer about Superman. It really seems like WB has no interest in the character. They could be leaking this info just to gain more leverage in the Cavill negotiations. Fingers crossed.

----------


## Agent Z

> And apparently the top of the list of Huntress candidates is Alexandria Daddario


Could you post a link please?

----------


## Confuzzled

> Could you post a link please?


https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...86784027848706

https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...04687204818945

https://twitter.com/TheComixKid/stat...15247388479488

----------


## kjn

> Revisiting the old archetypical story or stories is not why the Lion King is a ripoff. The Lion King is a ripoff because most if not all of the collective visual drappings of the movie, character roles and design included, are obviously taken from Kimba.


Note that I wasn't really talking about the Lion King and Kimba, but the more general case of Black Panther, Lion King, Aquaman et c.

To continue with the _Birds of Prey_ discussion, get back to me once they cast Oracle.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Patty Jenkins bringing us our first look of Pedro Pascal as _______ in WW84.

https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...07480978939907

----------


## Johnny

> And apparently the top of the list of Huntress candidates is Alexandria Daddario


No way they would have 3 white chicks on the team. Huntress would probably be based on the New-52 version.

----------


## El_Gato

> No way they would have 3 white chicks on the team. Huntress would probably be based on the New-52 version.


Renee Montoya and Cassandra Cain are in the film too. Of course I hope they go the Rebirth route with Helena. Would love to see a darker skin Helena (ala the actress who plays Maggie on Supergirl).

----------


## Johnny

They could still consider Daddario for the Batgirl movie instead. Babs is probably going to be a little bit older than usual anyway.

----------


## Korath

I don't know why Americans seems to think that all Italians are somehow darker than North Africans... In the North, they look a lot like Swiss, Austrians and Germans. Sure, Sicilians are darker-skinned, like some Spaniards, but they aren't that dark. I mean, I'm half-Spanish, just as pale as any Southern French, really, and while I tan relatively easily and have distinct Spaniards features, I highly doubt that even after a summer on the beach I would be taken as anything else than White...

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

https://twitter.com/ComicBookDebate/...43019719385089

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Even when he's no longer involved with DC films Zack Snyder is still finding ways to break the Internet. :P

----------


## Last Son of Krypton

https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/...70964206309376

_"I said the current DCEU is continuing for now w/upcoming films, but Batman will be standalone reboot of bat-series, BUT in the future could be merged back into the other films OR they could use it to reboot entire DCEU. They'll do one or the other."_

_"Affleck isn't playing Batman in the solo movie & probably isn't returning. There is however simply still a chance -- until WB officially announces otherwise -- that of course humans might change their minds some day, unless/until we hear official final word."_

_"So they are making a new movie with a new actor and plan it as a standalone film to reboot the franchise, BUT they're careful how they say it b/c they're still finalizing choices a/b the future & there's technically a chance they might decide to merge it into other DCEU later."_

_"The movie is a prequel. Affleck could still play the modern day Batman of the DCEU. Hell he could still be in The Batman. We'll know soon enough."_

----------


## Lightning Rider

> https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/...70964206309376
> 
> _"I said the current DCEU is continuing for now w/upcoming films, but Batman will be standalone reboot of bat-series, BUT in the future could be merged back into the other films OR they could use it to reboot entire DCEU. They'll do one or the other."_
> 
> _"Affleck isn't playing Batman in the solo movie & probably isn't returning. There is however simply still a chance -- until WB officially announces otherwise -- that of course humans might change their minds some day, unless/until we hear official final word."_
> 
> _"So they are making a new movie with a new actor and plan it as a standalone film to reboot the franchise, BUT they're careful how they say it b/c they're still finalizing choices a/b the future & there's technically a chance they might decide to merge it into other DCEU later."_
> 
> _"The movie is a prequel. Affleck could still play the modern day Batman of the DCEU. Hell he could still be in The Batman. We'll know soon enough."_


Sounds confusing but I guess it makes sense. It could stand apart but they're writing it in a way that it could tie into future DCEU projects. Kind of like some Year One/Origin stories are written in comics.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/...70964206309376
> 
> _"I said the current DCEU is continuing for now w/upcoming films, but Batman will be standalone reboot of bat-series, BUT in the future could be merged back into the other films OR they could use it to reboot entire DCEU. They'll do one or the other."_
> 
> _"Affleck isn't playing Batman in the solo movie & probably isn't returning. There is however simply still a chance -- until WB officially announces otherwise -- that of course humans might change their minds some day, unless/until we hear official final word."_
> 
> _"So they are making a new movie with a new actor and plan it as a standalone film to reboot the franchise, BUT they're careful how they say it b/c they're still finalizing choices a/b the future & there's technically a chance they might decide to merge it into other DCEU later."_
> 
> _"The movie is a prequel. Affleck could still play the modern day Batman of the DCEU. Hell he could still be in The Batman. We'll know soon enough."_


Sounds confusing but I guess it makes sense. It could stand apart but they're writing it in a way that it could tie into future DCEU projects. Kind of like some Year One/Origin stories are written in comics.

----------


## Hawkman

> https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/...70964206309376
> 
> _"I said the current DCEU is continuing for now w/upcoming films, but Batman will be standalone reboot of bat-series, BUT in the future could be merged back into the other films OR they could use it to reboot entire DCEU. They'll do one or the other."_
> 
> _"Affleck isn't playing Batman in the solo movie & probably isn't returning. There is however simply still a chance -- until WB officially announces otherwise -- that of course humans might change their minds some day, unless/until we hear official final word."_
> 
> _"So they are making a new movie with a new actor and plan it as a standalone film to reboot the franchise, BUT they're careful how they say it b/c they're still finalizing choices a/b the future & there's technically a chance they might decide to merge it into other DCEU later."_
> 
> _"The movie is a prequel. Affleck could still play the modern day Batman of the DCEU. Hell he could still be in The Batman. We'll know soon enough."_


Wow. That is a lot of equivocating right there. Seriously. Why did he even bother writing all that? There are so many "coulds" and "mights" that he may as well have not written anything at all.

----------


## Frontier

Man, what a quagmire this Reeves Batman movie has become  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Patty Jenkins bringing us our first look of Pedro Pascal as _______ in WW84.
> 
> https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/statu...07480978939907


I've seen some people say he looks like Max Lord. I can kinda see it. 



> Renee Montoya and Cassandra Cain are in the film too. Of course I hope they go the Rebirth route with Helena. Would love to see a darker skin Helena (ala the actress who plays Maggie on Supergirl).


I'd be fine with darker skinned-Helena so long as she comes off more like Helena Bertinelli then the New 52/Rebirth version did.

----------


## Robotman

> https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/...70964206309376
> 
> _"I said the current DCEU is continuing for now w/upcoming films, but Batman will be standalone reboot of bat-series, BUT in the future could be merged back into the other films OR they could use it to reboot entire DCEU. They'll do one or the other."_
> 
> _"Affleck isn't playing Batman in the solo movie & probably isn't returning. There is however simply still a chance -- until WB officially announces otherwise -- that of course humans might change their minds some day, unless/until we hear official final word."_
> 
> _"So they are making a new movie with a new actor and plan it as a standalone film to reboot the franchise, BUT they're careful how they say it b/c they're still finalizing choices a/b the future & there's technically a chance they might decide to merge it into other DCEU later."_
> 
> _"The movie is a prequel. Affleck could still play the modern day Batman of the DCEU. Hell he could still be in The Batman. We'll know soon enough."_


I actually figured they would do something similar to that. Keep it separate by not mentioning the other DCU heroes but still leave it open for a potential crossover down the road. The thing that makes me go all Jackie Chan is the fact that they may be doing Year One yet again! Jeezus, how many times do we need to see the Waynes get shot and Bruce learn how to be Batman?!? 

As for the image of Pascal from WW 84, some people have theorized that he’s Dr. Fate/Nabu. He’s rumored to be playing a god, but maybe it’s a Lord of Order. Also, he’s wearing blue and gold. Maybe a hint.

----------


## byrd156

> https://twitter.com/ComicBookDebate/...43019719385089


Well I highly doubt DC is gonna have Dick be dead in the DCEU.

----------


## Arsenal

> https://twitter.com/ComicBookDebate/...43019719385089


Where's Snyder's blue check?

----------


## Coal Tiger

> https://twitter.com/ComicBookDebate/...43019719385089


Genuinely glad he's not involved anymore.  Starting a cinematic universe out of DKR was always a colossal blunder and possibly the reason things have been so difficult to catch on.

----------


## Krypto's Fleas

> Genuinely glad he's not involved anymore.  Starting a cinematic universe out of DKR was always a colossal blunder and possibly the reason things have been so difficult to catch on.


Which was what many, many here were saying at the time and were attacked for not just blindly going along with Snyder's direction.

----------


## Frontier

I don't want to rehash the endless debates about Snyder or harp on him too much, but ultimately I think it's become pretty clear that his vision wasn't the right one to direct a DC Cinematic Universe, but I think on that front Warner Bros. is as culpable, if not moreso.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> I don't want to rehash the endless debates about Snyder or harp on him too much, but ultimately I think it's become pretty clear that his vision wasn't the right one to direct a DC Cinematic Universe, but I think on that front Warner Bros. is as culpable, if not moreso.


There was a time there that it seemed like everyone at Warner Brothers believed that DC comics was created in 1986 by Alan Moore and Frank Miller.

----------


## ironman2978

As for Matt Reeves, I have resolved unless it comes from Matt himself, everything is heresay and take it with a grain of salt.

But with Snyder, I was geniuenly interested in his ideas and he brought some good concepts to the DCEU (Polynesian Aquaman, a Batman who has experience and been through some stuff before he meets Superman, a Wonder Woman who's been around since World War 1, among other), it was always the execution that was lackluster and disappointing. That being said, I would be disappointed if he killed Dick before he even showed his face in the DCEU, so I am glad that wasn't in continuity.

----------


## stargazer01

> Wow. That is a lot of equivocating right there. Seriously. Why did he even bother writing all that? There are so many "coulds" and "mights" that he may as well have not written anything at all.


Agreed, he's not saying anything new lol.  Anyone could say that.

----------


## Carabas

> Genuinely glad he's not involved anymore.  Starting a cinematic universe out of DKR was always a colossal blunder and possibly the reason things have been so difficult to catch on.


It's very different from the comics, but I see no reasons at all why it wouldn't work amazingly well, provided the films are competently made.

----------


## Stromberg

Lively is the only one who looks like Dinah, imo.

----------


## kjn

> It's very different from the comics, but I see no reasons at all why it wouldn't work amazingly well, provided the films are competently made.


Doing Moore's and Miller's DKR as a movie can certainly work; one could even say that that was what Nolan did, though he did so very loosely. But it requires a filmmaker like Nolan who doesn't mistake style for substance; Zack Snyder is not that filmmaker.

But, more fundamentally, note that what Nolan—and Moore and Miller—did was a conclusion to Batman's character arc. By starting at that point in Batman's career, you're opening up the cinematic universe on the wrong end for one of your most central characters. That Snyder didn't realise that shows how shallow his understanding of story-telling is.

----------


## Carabas

> Doing Moore's and Miller's DKR as a movie can certainly work; one could even say that that was what Nolan did, though he did so very loosely. But it requires a filmmaker like Nolan who doesn't mistake style for substance; Zack Snyder is not that filmmaker.
> 
> But, more fundamentally, note that what Nolan—and Moore and Miller—did was a conclusion to Batman's character arc. By starting at that point in Batman's career, you're opening up the cinematic universe on the wrong end for one of your most central characters. That Snyder didn't realise that shows how shallow his understanding of story-telling is.


To me the end of The Dark Knight Returns feels as much as an ending as a new beginning for Batman.

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## jump

> Doing Moore's and Miller's DKR as a movie can certainly work; one could even say that that was what Nolan did, though he did so very loosely. But it requires a filmmaker like Nolan who doesn't mistake style for substance; Zack Snyder is not that filmmaker.
> 
> But, more fundamentally, note that what Nolan—and Moore and Miller—did was a conclusion to Batman's character arc. By starting at that point in Batman's career, you're opening up the cinematic universe on the wrong end for one of your most central characters. That Snyder didn't realise that shows how shallow his understanding of story-telling is.


Just my opinion but both Nolan and Snyder aren't great storytellers, whilst Nolan I think is a far superior director to Snyder he feels too clinical and often misses the big heart moments of his films.

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## jump

> Doing Moore's and Miller's DKR as a movie can certainly work; one could even say that that was what Nolan did, though he did so very loosely. But it requires a filmmaker like Nolan who doesn't mistake style for substance; Zack Snyder is not that filmmaker.
> 
> But, more fundamentally, note that what Nolanand Moore and Millerdid was a conclusion to Batman's character arc. By starting at that point in Batman's career, you're opening up the cinematic universe on the wrong end for one of your most central characters. That Snyder didn't realise that shows how shallow his understanding of story-telling is.


Just my opinion but both Nolan and Snyder aren't great storytellers, whilst Nolan I think is a far superior director to Snyder he feels too clinical and often misses the big heart moments of his films.

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## kjn

> To me the end of The Dark Knight Returns feels as much as an ending as a new beginning for Batman.


Or at least a new beginning for Bruce Wayne; doing an ending that has the elements of a new beginning is a hallmark of many great stories. But what Snyder did was backtracking on Batman's character from the Nolan's TDKR, and doing so without any kind of showing how that happened.

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## Agent Z

> Or at least a new beginning for Bruce Wayne; doing an ending that has the elements of a new beginning is a hallmark of many great stories. But what Snyder did was backtracking on Batman's character from the Nolan's TDKR, and doing so without any kind of showing how that happened.


You can't backtrack on a version of a character you never directed. 

Also, we did see what made Bruce like this. It's right there in the beginning when he witnesses the battle in Metropolis.

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## Vanguard-01

> You can't backtrack on a version of a character you never directed. 
> 
> Also, we did see what made Bruce like this. It's right there in the beginning when he witnesses the battle in Metropolis.


That, plus twenty years of the stress and exertion of waging an endless war against the crime and corruption of a city with a seemingly endless supply of crime and corruption. To say nothing of the loss of at least one person with whom he was close.

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## byrd156

Using Dark Knight returns as a starting point for Batman is a terrible idea but the idea of a grizzled semi-retired Batman could work. Where the DCEU version fell short was Synder taking the Batman from that story and thinking 100% this is how Batman should be. DKR is good but its a deconstruction of the character, it's semi-serious satire of the character.

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## Frontier

> Lively is the only one who looks like Dinah, imo.


I think Kirby looks a lot more like Dinah, honestly. 



> To me the end of The Dark Knight Returns feels as much as an ending as a new beginning for Batman.


I'm not sure that new beginning would work in the context of a burgeoning DC Cinematic Universe.

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## Hawkman

> I don't want to rehash the endless debates about Snyder or harp on him too much, but ultimately I think it's become pretty clear that his vision wasn't the right one to direct a DC Cinematic Universe, but I think on that front Warner Bros. is as culpable, if not moreso.


As someone who loves both _Man of Steel_ and _Batman v Superman_, I agree with you. Snyder is a great visual director, but he really needed someone to rope him in on some of his story elements. Luckily, it seems like a lot of his most damaging ideas were ultimately cut anyway, so most of the harm he inflicted remains reparable by simply not acknowledging it ever happened.




> There was a time there that it seemed like everyone at Warner Brothers believed that DC comics was created in 1986 by Alan Moore and Frank Miller.


I think Warner Bros. were and still are in large part obsessed with separating their live-action superhero films from the tone of the Joel Schumacher _Batman_ films. As is often the case with extremes, though, they swung the pendulum just as hard in the opposite direction.

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## Lightning Rider

I love Snyder and most of his choices thus far but I am glad Dick can be salvaged. With a perfectly good story with Jason as the focal point instead, it would be a huge waste of an iconic character and the potential to have them interact and reflect on their past.

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## Last Son of Krypton

I don't care it's pure BS, but this is too fun to not share: https://gvnation.com/rumor-details-o...ome-the-joker/

LOL  :Big Grin:

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## Jokerz79

Dark Knight Returns is a good story but it's also one of the most overrated stories in comics history even it's influence on Batman is overrated. Frank Miller didn't make Batman "Dark" again Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams deserves more credit for that all Miller did IMO was make Batman a borderline Psychopath which for an elseworlds is an interesting story but for an ongoing continuity is not a good starting point to follow IMO.

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## mace11

> Renee Montoya and Cassandra Cain are in the film too. Of course I hope they go the Rebirth route with Helena. Would love to see a darker skin Helena (ala the actress who plays Maggie on Supergirl).





> I don't know why Americans seems to think that all Italians are somehow darker than North Africans... In the North, they look a lot like Swiss, Austrians and Germans. Sure, Sicilians are darker-skinned, like some Spaniards, but they aren't that dark. I mean, I'm half-Spanish, just as pale as any Southern French, really, and while I tan relatively easily and have distinct Spaniards features, I highly doubt that even after a summer on the beach I would be taken as anything else than White...


Check out this recent video.
Alexandra Daddario As Huntress Rumors


or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSwxAsj4cqg

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## BatmanJones

> Genuinely glad he's not involved anymore.  Starting a cinematic universe out of DKR was always a colossal blunder and possibly the reason things have been so difficult to catch on.


ME TOO. I've felt for him in the past and I've defended him as an auteur though I've done more criticizing than defending since I don't typically like his work. I still typically argue for his right to make it. But this Dick Grayson business was the final straw with me. He can make whatever he wants if he'll just please keep his hands of these very few, very special characters and I'm passing glad he will be going forward.

This reminds me of how he "had fun" with Jimmy Olsen. Ugh. That's a stain that can't be washed out. So glad they dumped him before he killed Dick Grayson offscreen.

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## Hilden B. Lade

Well after another cycle of "The Batman" rumors, an actual small update from Matt Reeves himself:

https://www.slashfilm.com/the-batman-update/




> “We are working on getting our draft [in] the next couple weeks,” Reeves said. “Right now, my head is totally into the script. Right now, I’m going to be leaving here to go back to work on the script.”
> 
> What’s more, this draft could be on the fast track to film early next year.
> 
> “What we’ve talked about is hopefully in the spring or early summer, something like that,” Reeves said.





> It’s been reported, and even inferred from Affleck himself, that he would not reprise the role of Bruce Wayne/Batman in The Batman. Reeves said he was still speaking with Affleck, but was coy about who might play the caped crusader in the film.
> 
> “There are ways in which all of this connects to DC, to the DC universe as well,” Reeves said. “We’re one piece of many pieces so I don’t want to comment on that except to say that I’m focused very specifically on this aspect of the DC world.”
> 
> After the connected movies from Man of Steel through Justice League, DC announced plans to focus on more individual movies. That also gives Affleck an out, but Reeves’ suggestion that there’s a way to have Affleck involved, without ruling out recasting a younger Batman, is intriguing.
> 
> The most obvious idea could be that the Bruce Wayne we know as Ben Affleck could bookend the movie, recalling this case from his younger days. Two Batmen for the price of one!
> 
> Reeves added that the shift in direction for DC films did not alter his plans for The Batman.
> ...





> “We’re not doing any particular [comic],” Reeves said. “Year One is one of the many comic books that I love. We are definitely not doing Year One. It’s just exciting to be focused very specifically on a tale that is defining for him and very personal to him. Obviously we’re not doing an origin tale or anything like that. We’re doing a story that is definitively Batman though and trying to tell a story that’s emotional and yet is really about him being the world’s greatest detective and all the things that for me, since I was a kid, made me love Batman.”
> 
> While Reeves may be a Batman comic book aficionado, he will blend all his favorite Bat tales into something new, reflecting the decades-long history of Batman on screen.
> 
> “I’ve talked about making it a very point of view noir-driven definitive Batman story in which he is investigating a particular case and that takes us out into the world of Gotham,” Reeves said. “I went on a deep dive again revisiting all my favorite comics. Those all inform by osmosis. There’s no continuation of the Nolan films. It’s very much trying to find a way to do this as something that for me is going to be definitively Batman and new and cool.”

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## Hawkman

Am I the only one who really _wants_ Affleck back as Batman? Feelings towards the material aside, I thought he was great in _Batman v Superman_, and from a strictly physical standpoint I find him to be the best Bruce Wayne/Batman yet. I'd love to see him playing the part in a film that the fans could universally get behind before he exits the role.

But maybe I'm standing on an island on this one. Wouldn't be the first time, either.

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## Frontier

Affleck being back and no origin story is a plus for me  :Smile: .



> Am I the only one who really _wants_ Affleck back as Batman? Feelings towards the material aside, I thought he was great in _Batman v Superman_, and from a strictly physical standpoint I find him to be the best Bruce Wayne/Batman yet. I'd love to see him playing the part in a film that the fans could universally get behind before he exits the role.
> 
> But maybe I'm standing on an island on this one. Wouldn't be the first time, either.


I enjoy Affleck as Batman. I think he's a great Batman. 

I'm just tired of this wishy-washy "will he or won't he" as far the role is concerned, and whether Affleck even wants to be Batman anymore.

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## Hawkman

> Affleck being back and no origin story is a plus for me .
> 
> I enjoy Affleck as Batman. I think he's a great Batman. 
> 
> I'm just tired of this wishy-washy "will he or won't he" as far the role is concerned, and whether Affleck even wants to be Batman anymore.


I agree. It is frustrating.

I can't say I blame him, though. I get the sense that Affleck genuinely enjoys playing Batman, but I also think he was taken off-guard by the backlash the films in which he played the role received. The chance of catching more of that criticism is where I assume most of his conflict over returning to the role stems.

Maybe that makes him a fair-weather fan, but again, I can't say I blame him. He more than anyone other than Snyder received a brunt of the criticism, I think, and most of it unfairly, too.

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## Lightning Rider

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/batma...ection-a162661

Following his earlier comments during the TCA summer press tour, Reeves has revealed that he is still "in contact" with Affleck in regards to the film, although he wouldn't elaborate any further.

...

One thing the director would confirm, though, is that The Batman will - however tenuously - have some kind of connection to the main "Worlds of DC."


*“There are ways in which all of this connects to DC, to the DC universe as well,” said Reeves. “We’re one piece of many pieces, so I don’t want to comment on that except to say that I’m focused very specifically on this aspect of the DC world.”*

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## Sam Robards, Comic Fan

> Am I the only one who really _wants_ Affleck back as Batman? Feelings towards the material aside, I thought he was great in _Batman v Superman_, and from a strictly physical standpoint I find him to be the best Bruce Wayne/Batman yet. I'd love to see him playing the part in a film that the fans could universally get behind before he exits the role.
> 
> But maybe I'm standing on an island on this one. Wouldn't be the first time, either.


I'm in totaly agreement: Affleck was great in both BvS and JL, and I really want him to have a solo, as I'm _really_ close to calling him my favorite live-action Batman. I just need to see a solo to confirm it.

As for Reeve's flick not being based on _Year One_, GOOD. Not taking anything away from the original story, but didn't _Batman Begins_ already go over a decent portion of it? At least the Batman origin stuff and the relationship with Gordon. I'm ok with it being in the past, but, for the love of goodness, keep JK Simmons as Gordon. Love that man.

----------


## Bossace

I don’t need to see bruce’s Parents get shot. I don’t need to see him training and becoming the bat. I’ve seen that. Bvs showed me enough origin for Bruce for the DCEU then I’ll ever need. Just give me a good Batman movie where screen time isn’t wasted with the Bruce to bat transformation. Give me a somewhat established Batman fighting crime and I’ll be happy. Everyone knows his origin we don’t need to see it again. I’d love to see a villain that really hasn’t been used on the big screen before too. Keep it fresh!

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## Last Son of Krypton

_"That's not a rumor. THEY ARE looking for an 11-12 year old girl to play Cass Cain."_

https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...65747787948038

_"Cassandra Cain is the focus of the movie (Birds of Prey), she's not just a background character..."_

_"Well...

Black Canary is the leader of the group

Harley Quinn is the Jack Sparrow of the group

Cassandra Cain is the focus of the story that makes the group come together

The rest are also important but these three are the leads and most important characters of the film."_

https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...42600026943489

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## Lightning Rider

> _"That's not a rumor. THEY ARE looking for an 11-12 year old girl to play Cass Cain."_
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...65747787948038
> 
> _"Cassandra Cain is the focus of the movie (Birds of Prey), she's not just a background character..."_
> 
> _"Well...
> 
> Black Canary is the leader of the group
> ...


Sounds interesting enough.

----------


## Frontier

> _"That's not a rumor. THEY ARE looking for an 11-12 year old girl to play Cass Cain."_
> 
> https://twitter.com/DanielRPK/status...65747787948038
> 
> _"Cassandra Cain is the focus of the movie (Birds of Prey), she's not just a background character..."_
> 
> _"Well...
> 
> Black Canary is the leader of the group
> ...


This kind of reminds me of how young Cass was initially depicted as while she was "Orphan."

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## Vanguard-01

Good to hear that Dinah will be the leader and not Harley.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if Harley as the "Jack Sparrow" of the group will end up filling Lady Blackhawk's role...

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

While anyone can of course have any opinion regarding what they want and don't want to see in a new Batman film, I think it's worth pointing out that we've seen Bruce Wayne training to become Batman in one single film so far, and that was thirteen years ago.

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## Vakanai

> While anyone can of course have any opinion regarding what they want and don't want to see in a new Batman film, I think it's worth pointing out that we've seen Bruce Wayne training to become Batman in one single film so far, and that was thirteen years ago.


In comic book fandom time that was barely even a week ago at best. :Stick Out Tongue:

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## TheNewFiftyForum

> In comic book fandom time that was barely even a week ago at best.


For reference, thirteen years ago comic book Batman was in the beginning of the War Crimes crossover, and his best selling title barely scraped above 65.000 issues in a month.

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## Vakanai

> For reference, thirteen years ago comic book Batman was in the beginning of the War Crimes crossover, and his best selling title barely scraped above 65.000 issues in a month.


I didn't say comic book time, I said comic book *fandom* time, where for some the wounds of Death in the Family, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and the Killing Joke are all too fresh. A 13 year old movie might as well be yesterday, so to rehash the origin again so soon for them is...meh.

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## Matt

There is a notion that rather large threads may contribute to server load. As such, we are experimenting with closing existing threads to see if it helps matters.
Feel free to start a new thread on the same topic.

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