# Comics  > Image Comics >  What happened to the excitement around Image?

## son of booyah

Another post made me want to start this discussion.

Enthusiasm for the Image slate, in a relative sense, is waning. There are a lot of good books, and sales aren't poor I don't think, but it used to be much more popping here as well as elsewhere - and the announcement of a new series doesn't seem to make anyone take note these days.

This isn't to bash Image, they do a lot of great stuff and give a ton of creators a chance to shine. I'm more interested in constructive criticism.

What used to work that isn't anymore?

Is there something the company's doing wrong?

And what can Image do to get back on the tip of people's tongues?

I think, more than making the company succeed, comic fans need to make sure the business model they've been following succeeds. Because if we see Marvel and DC gobble more market share back, we're going to lose what foothold independent comics have earned in the bigger market. Thoughts?

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## Vegan Daddy

I remember all that hype. I used to read East of West, Sex Criminals, Saga, Rat Queens, Lazarus, Black Magick, Descender, Southern Bastards, Bitch Planet, Deadly Class, Chew, Copperhead, Big Man Plans, They're Not Like Us, Velvet, Wicked + Divine etc.

I stopped. Not sure why. I think I just got fed up with following so many comics at once, especially when half of them would seemingly disappear for months at a time with no word from the creators or publisher.

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## rui no onna

Delays are a bit of a problem for a lot of Image Comics. Hiatus in between story arcs aren't so bad but there's delays in the middle of a story arc, too.

I expect if I had only been following Image books and hadn't been getting either Superman or Action weekly, I'd probably fall off the comic habit and would just trade wait everything and buy online. You've got to give props to DC and Marvel for getting majority of their books out on time every single week.

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## MRP

> Delays are a bit of a problem for a lot of Image Comics. Hiatus in between story arcs aren't so bad but there's delays in the middle of a story arc, too.
> 
> I expect if I had only been following Image books and hadn't been getting either Superman or Action weekly, I'd probably fall off the comic habit and would just trade wait everything and buy online. You've got to give props to DC and Marvel for getting majority of their books out on time every single week.


That's a lot easier when you use assembly line methods and rotating art teams to crank out issues than when you have a consistent creative team each and every issue. If Marvel & DC didn't use fill in artists or multiple art teams to get the books out, they wouldn't be meeting monthly deadlines, and I would prefer consistency and quality rather than just getting something out to meet a deadline. I'd rather wait than buy a comic that is by a different creator than the one that interested me in the book initially, but then I grew up reading bi-monthyl 8 times a year and quarterly books in the 70s so waiting doesn't bother me and monthly was never a pre-requisite for getting the comics I liked. 

-M

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## rui no onna

> That's a lot easier when you use assembly line methods and rotating art teams to crank out issues than when you have a consistent creative team each and every issue. If Marvel & DC didn't use fill in artists or multiple art teams to get the books out, they wouldn't be meeting monthly deadlines, and I would prefer consistency and quality rather than just getting something out to meet a deadline. I'd rather wait than buy a comic that is by a different creator than the one that interested me in the book initially, but then I grew up reading bi-monthyl 8 times a year and quarterly books in the 70s so waiting doesn't bother me and monthly was never a pre-requisite for getting the comics I liked. 
> 
> -M


If more comics were standalone instead of being Part 1 of 6, I'd probably feel the same. As it is, I trade-wait most Image except for absolute faves.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## DanMad1977

I dont see it that way. Image is still a very fine publisher, the only problem it has it that most of the books read better in paperbacks and in one sitting. 

I used to read Invincible in trades until i reached the last one avaiable, than changed to singles. The impact is almost lost. I had a blast to read a whole volume in one sitting, but just one single feels too short and empty. 

Same with TWD, not as bad as Invincible but it was still better in TPB. 

I sold my East of West, because i got lost in the monthly or bi-monthly schedule and wait for an ultimate edition. 

Some others work pretty well in singles: Savage Dragon, Lazarus and Seven to Eternity for example are books that dont feel light on contend when you read them monthly.

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## Cel

Hype is overrated, but Marvel and DC have had their hype departments working in overdrive for quite awhile now and no one else can really match theirs...

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## DanMad1977

I think the hype came from us, the readers, not image itself. We created it, because we liked what we saw. It was just about good storys. So, the "hype" is still there...it sells good.

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## cc008

The boom a few years ago was pretty crazy. Big name creators were announcing books left and right. 

It's died down a little.. only because those books are either delayed, or just in the middle of their madness now. Those big name creators are still around, they're just already writing all the books they can and don't have time to announce new ones. 

There are some good ones coming down the pike now, no doubt. But I don't see Remender, Hickman, Kirkman, Ellis, Aaron, Rucka, and the like announcing MORE books on top of everything they're already writing.

And yes. The reality of delays have definitely been deflating. And I'm not talking about the month or 2 off in between arcs. I appreciate those. I'm talking about books disappearing for half a year with no idea as to why.

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## rui no onna

> I think the hype came from us, the readers, not image itself. We created it, because we liked what we saw. It was just about good storys. So, the "hype" is still there...it sells good.





> The boom a few years ago was pretty crazy. Big name creators were announcing books left and right.


Hmm, I do wonder if part of that is because there was a speculator boom (moving to Image from DC and Marvel). I remember comments from retailers saying they'd get cleaned out of Image #1s but no one was coming back for #2.

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## TotalSnorefest

I wonder if it's mostly just a perception thing? Like, we've gotten used to Image's new plateau but still expect them to rise further? 

Most of the titles Vegan Daddy mentioned are still ongoing to (mostly) continued critical acclaim. That means all these "big name creators" can't just come out with another 3 titles, because they're working on their current projects (goes for artists in particular). There's only so many 'big names' in comics, I think, so there have been less of these "OMG Brian K. Vaughan returns to comics at last and Saga looks gorgeous"-announcements.

Additionally, I think the sudden Image boom where they secured around 10% of the market (a number they still hover around/above, depending on which statistic you look at), also served as a punch to the teeth of Marvel and DC. In my perception at least, suddenly Marvel was taking a lot more risks again with "indie-flavoured" takes on superheroes. Hawkeye is likely the premiere example there. They also saw Image catering to a demographic they routinely ignored, so things like Ms. Marvel or Charles Soule's She-Hulk suddenly got a shot. 
[Note: this could be projection on my part, you could argue that Marvel saw enormous publicity/success with their Ultimate Spider-Man Miles Morales relaunch in 2011, combined with the critical acclaim for DeConnick's run on Captain Marvel, they may have arrived at this conclusion themselves, rather than by trying to emulate the Saga/Rat Queens/Bitch Planet successes.]

DC was a bit later on the uptake; while the recent Image boom was happening they were still busy with their (initially well-received) New 52 initiative. It was kind of the opposite strategy really, with cohesive books sharing a consistent look, rather than how Marvel let uniformity become less important. Nowadays however DC has a number of titles that could be of interest to indie readers too (Batgirl, Gotham Academy, a bunch of the DC You titles seemed like an attempt to get the Vertigo/Image crowd on board).

TL;DR I think multiple reasons: there's not as many whammy announcements because those creators are ALREADY at Image, the competition has stepped up their game significantly since the Image boom (DC in particular made a steep climb), there's fewer Image Expo events I think too. Of course there's many other factors, I mean you gotta wonder what the market can support since we're being absolutely spoiled with quality indie comics the past years.
Could be wrong about all of this though, just some speculation haha!

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## MRP

> Hmm, I do wonder if part of that is because there was a speculator boom (moving to Image from DC and Marvel). I remember comments from retailers saying they'd get cleaned out of Image #1s but no one was coming back for #2.


I'm not a speculator, but I often by the first issue of Image series to sample and then trade wait on many that I like. I've long ago broken the new comic day addiction and prefer to buy comics like I buy other books, getting what I want to read when I want to buy it rather than having to run to the store to snap it up when it comes out. I either give away the #1 issues to people I think might like a series or trade them in to some of my dealer friends from the con circuit and use the credit to sample other things I am interested in reading. So there are other reasons why #1 sell better than #2 than just speculation, though speculation is a huge part of it I am sure. 

-M

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## son of booyah

I hear the delay thing. I try to read series in collections unless I'm buying to support the artists - which I do with Invisible Republic and Empty Zone, and I'm happy to. But Black Monday Murders has broken my heart, I don't know if I'll get a third arc in singles. I understand that artists (writers and "artists") need to do hire work to pay the bills, or focus on certain projects, but as a fan it can feel like someone made a promise to you and is slacking on fulfilling it, and that sucks. So that may be a factor.

The whole idea of done-in-one issues need to come back as well; Rui kind of alluded to that. I really enjoy when there are several stand-alone issues that later tie together, too. When it's one story and there are five cliffhangers, or it's perpetually cliffhangering, it's a little much. ...that's an across the board crit though, that's comics in general right now. But, as he/she said, delays and trade-length arcs aren't an ideal match.

MRP, that sig needs to be everywhere, bullseye.

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## MRP

Here's the thing with delays. No one really remembers them after their initial release. When people talk about Watchmen now, no one bitches that there were massive delays with the last 3 issues. At the time, sure, but after trades hit and the primary way people were exposed to the book were in collected editions, all those delays didn't mean a thing to the book's legacy or readership. No one today is saying well I can't read Watchmen because there were delays on issues 10, 11 and 12 when it came out that weren't planned breaks between arcs. It is only the Wednesday Warrior in need of their Wednesday fix that will even notice the delays (well and retailers whose income is based on comic sales), but in terms of long term readership, quality of the book, and legacy of a book, the delays are inconsequential. After the initial release, no one will encounter the book as it comes out. Anyone reading the book or coming to it after the release will do so through back issues or collected editions where the quality and consistency of the work itself, not the frequency of its release, will be what matters. 

-M

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## son of booyah

That's true, however sales (of single issues) are used to gauge whether or not to keep a series going. So if you want multiple volumes of a series, buying the singles helps way more than buying a trade later on.

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## MRP

> That's true, however sales (of single issues) are used to gauge whether or not to keep a series going. So if you want multiple volumes of a series, buying the singles helps way more than buying a trade later on.


Generally single issues sales pay for production costs for that issue, it's trade sales that generate the bulk of profits. Trade sales also generate revenue over a longer period of time, a single issue has a 4 week window of generating revenue typically before it is replaced by another issue that must cover it's production costs as well. Most production costs for trades are already long paid for, so long term revenue and thus long term viability for the book comes from trade sales. Single issue sales have to support themselves. Trade sales have to support the life of the project. So yes, a book has to sell enough single issues to pay for the production, but the long term success of a book is going to be determined by trade sales. 

A single issue can only sell as many copies as retailers order of it and rarely go back to press for more. Trades can sell through multiple print runs and successful books generally go through multiple printings and will go back to press as long as there is continued demand for the book, so can keep making money long after a single issue has ended its shelf life or after new issues cease production. 

-M

edit to add: Also the vast majority of trade sales are through distribution networks outside Diamond so will reach a larger potential audience than single issues ever will, because single issues sell only in destination boutique shops to a niche market customer base. Trade sales are available to a mass market through other outlets.

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## rui no onna

> Here's the thing with delays. No one really remembers them after their initial release. <snip> It is only the Wednesday Warrior in need of their Wednesday fix that will even notice the delays (well and retailers whose income is based on comic sales), but in terms of long term readership, quality of the book, and legacy of a book, the delays are inconsequential. After the initial release, no one will encounter the book as it comes out. Anyone reading the book or coming to it after the release will do so through back issues or collected editions where the quality and consistency of the work itself, not the frequency of its release, will be what matters.


Oh yes, I agree. My comment regarding dropping off the comics habit is entirely in terms of buying single issues from the local comic shop. Scheduling delays tend to negatively affect periodical sales and I reckon most comic shops are quite dependent on regular periodical sales for their livelihood.





> Generally single issues sales pay for production costs for that issue, it's trade sales that generate the bulk of profits. Trade sales also generate revenue over a longer period of time, a single issue has a 4 week window of generating revenue typically before it is replaced by another issue that must cover it's production costs as well. Most production costs for trades are already long paid for, so long term revenue and thus long term viability for the book comes from trade sales. Single issue sales have to support themselves. Trade sales have to support the life of the project. So yes, a book has to sell enough single issues to pay for the production, but the long term success of a book is going to be determined by trade sales. 
> 
> A single issue can only sell as many copies as retailers order of it and rarely go back to press for more. Trades can sell through multiple print runs and successful books generally go through multiple printings and will go back to press as long as there is continued demand for the book, so can keep making money long after a single issue has ended its shelf life or after new issues cease production.


True but as far as Big Two superhero comics go, I expect most have to make their profit via single issues. For Marvel specifically, series can get cancelled as early as issue #2 and #3 orders before the books are available to mass market. Pretty shortsighted imho given they can afford to take that risk but it is what it is. I'm just glad there are publishers and creators (Image, Aftershock, Black Mask, etc) willing to take a risk else we wouldn't have all these good books.

And in all fairness to DC and Marvel, they do pay page rates. For Image, a large portion of the risk is born by the creators. Mind, this is partly why I'm disappointed by Marvel's strong arm techniques (e.g. lenticular variant program) trying to get retailers to tie up their capital on Marvel books.

http://comicsalliance.com/phonogram-kieron-gillen/



> *CA: Don’t you think you’ll be making that up with the trade? Lots of good comics aren’t selling well, why do you think your lack of financial success precludes a third volume down the road? Why not explore other publishers or imprints like Vertigo or Marvel Icon?*
> 
> KG: There’s a difference between making only a little money and starving. We’re very much in the latter. Jamie’s lucky to get a couple of hundred dollars from an issue. While he didn’t tell me about this until after it was all done, there were three occasions when Jamie was seriously considering throwing in the towel. The problem is that Image’s deal is a back-end one. Will we make some money off the trade? Maybe. And that’s a big maybe. But that means Jamie not earning any money for the six months it would take to draw it, which is the main reason why we took over a year to do 7 issues. As in, every time Jamie ran out of money, he had to stop and do something else. A couple of hundred dollars doesn’t cover rent or pay for his fashionable haircuts. And doing this bitty work f–ks up the production anyway, because you can’t concentrate or plan. You just spend your entire life in low-level money panic.
> 
> Frankly, Jamie is just shy of thirty and one of the most talented illustrators of his generation. Even I’m not a big a bastard enough to want him to spend another year in “Phonogram”‘s brand of hell. He deserves a paycheck.
> 
> Other options? Vertigo would never publish “Phonogram.” The stuff we do with real bands is far too grey-area for Warner [Bros]. I’m not Bendis or Brubaker, so Icon would never fly. Most companies you suspect would be interested aren’t, from what I understand – though I haven’t actually pursued it with any seriousness.
> 
> Best plan I have is just writing series 3 and then writing into my will that assuming I die young and Jamie’s still around, lob him whatever’s in my bank account to draw it. Which is assuming he’d even be willing to do it then. It’s not that we’re bitter about it — well, not just because we’re bitter about it — but that it’s been emotionally exhausting. We’ve been doing “Phonogram” for over 4 years, not including the years before the first series came out. Imagine if we could have just done the comic and not had to deal with any of the shit we’ve had to. We’d have been up to issue 44 now. Instead, we have 13 issues.
> ...

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## MRP

Image's back end deal applies to single issues too, not just trades, and there are accounts out there of writers giving advice on how to financially plan to account for producing monthly work but getting paid at intervals for chunks of the work instead of as it comes out as you get with page rates. So for a back end deal, you are waiting on getting paid whether it's single issues or trades, unless there is some arrangement between the creators themselves for payment (i.e. the writer paying the artist to produce his work while the writer gets the back end money as happens in smaller press books). If you take a big 2 deal you know the only money you are getting is on the front end with page rates. Nothing is selling in big enough numbers for residuals/royalties to hit the negotiated thresholds and kick in really, so no matter how well a book does long term, you are pretty much only getting that initial page rate unless you get creative credit for a new character that could produce residuals of some sort, which happens rarely with work-for-hire contracts. But creators have to do what they need to do to make ends meet. The market is really a very small pie now and new books only make the slices of the pie smaller, they don't make the pie bigger. The big 2 flood the market with books to consume market share taking big chunks of the pie overall, but the slice for each book is relatively tiny, so even a successful indy book is only going to get a small slice of the pie to divide up between the creators. The biggest issue is that the big 2 are so focused on getting the biggest piece of a shrinking pie, no effort is being made to make the pie bigger and expand the market. Market expansion is never going to happen within the confines of the direct market. It is a 20th century dinosaur struggling to survive on the 21st century and has become a niche boutique market. Single issue sales are never going to grow appreciably at this point. There is no market for it beyond the direct market boutique. It's now how the modern consumer in the mass market consumes and purchases entertainment any more. If the pie is going to get bigger and the market expanded, the growth is going to have to come in formats that have a chance to sell in the mass market beyond the shrinking boutique market of the direct market niche customer base. The book trade outside Diamond (which will carry trades not single issues) is one component of it.

But the biggest thing holding that growth back is the compensation model used by the big 2 and some of the other bigger comics publishers. You've highlighted the problem on the creative end, and the need to make ends meet is certainly understandable, but it doesn't allow for the creation of product to expand the market. There are comics publishers offering alternate ways of compensating talent, but they are the graphic novel divisions of the big book publishers, not comics publishers. They use a model based on how they compensate prose authors. When a project is accepted after the pitch process/submission process, a contract is drawn up, creators get an advance to make ends meet as they create the book and get paid royalties and residuals at a contracted rate minus the advance once the book hits the market and generates revenue. No page rates, not back end only deals, but a mutually beneficial compensation process. This is the type of compensation model that allows for books like all 3 volumes of March to be produced, and stuff from First Second, and other books published by actual book publishers for a wider audience than the niche Diamond market that the single issue to trade serves. Jeff Lemire recently did a book through that process-Roughneck-that didn't need to go through the single issue Diamond boutique market first because it came from a book publisher using a different compensation model, one not stuck in the 20th century when the market itself was vastly different than today's market. Other markets for comics use the advance/royalty compensation model as well, especially some of the European models where a new Asterix volume can generate pre-orders in the millions across Europe and the creators don't have to starve waiting for backend money or scrimp by on page rates. 

If the market is going to grow, not only the formats, but the distribution model and the model for compensation of creators has to be evolve as well. The thing is, there is no financial incentive for the big 2 to make the kind of infrastructure investments necessary to grow or evolve the market. They are the one most benefiting from the current status quo and those that benefit from the status quo rarely want to change the status quo. The impetus for change and growth is going to have to come from outside the big 2 and likely outside the Diamond big 5, though I still have hopes that Image and IDW have the vision, impetus and resources to help the evolution/growth process. I'd love to see Image continue to evolve and move the medium format, becoming more like a book publishing house than a comics publisher in the big 2 model, and IDW is working at developing resources form their other medium connections to find new markets to bring books into outside the direct market boutique. 

But with the direct market model as it is, with the retailers shouldering all the risk and the publishers, and Diamond especially, reaping the rewards with guaranteed revenue from non-returnability even if the books don't reach end customers, with a compensation model that keeps creators dependent on the monthly schedule to make ends meet tying them to the apron strings of the comics publishing houses for survival purposes if they want to make comics and eat and pay bills, making the kind of changes necessary is an uphill battle. There's no incentive for those benefiting from the model to make a change. Add to it that the hardcore customer base of that market model is highly resistant to change and to other formats, is addicted to the weekly fix of new comics and resentful of efforts to reach out to new and different audiences with products that veer outside the established model they habitually consume and support with their buying habits, and you have a near impossible situation. Entropy is dwindling the market. The big 2's devotion to the direct market from the late 80s through now has cost them two generations of new readers so far because they catered to the existing audience and their tastes and focused selling comics only to them in specialty destination boutique shops and in so doing losing access and appeal to the wider mass audience. They're never getting those lost potential readers back. It's too late for that. They need to create new potential readers. The success of super-heroes in other mediums over the past decade and a half only further underscores the point, it's not super-heroes or comic book content that is the problem for the wider mass audience, it is the formats and distribution model of comic books that is the obstacle to growth and reaching a wider audience. And to evolve those, other things, like compensation models for the creative talent, have to evolve as well. But don't look for those types of changes to come from those entrenched at the top of the current market model. 

-M

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## Orpheus37

Wow this is a cool thread! Yeah, delays never help. I'd say the lesser excitement around image has to do with content, and the actual reality of their business model.

For content, as good as it is, and its not really a criticism, I just wish it was more comic booky if that makes any sense. I feel like a lot of the creators are trying to make very sophisticated material. Certainly nothing wrong with that, but personally I feel that a lot of the fun that comes with comics can go out the window when that direction is taken. I kind of get the vibe that a lot of the creators want to escape the stigma around comics and to be considered serious artists like an auteur film maker would be, and I think in a lot of cases they're overcompensating, we need a few more cool, basic, comic friendly series like Copperhead and Invincible from image if you ask me.

As for the business model, yeah you win big if your series really hits, but at the end of the day you're basically working on commission, which just isn't sustainable for a lot these series and their creators

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## Serd

> Wow this is a cool thread! Yeah, delays never help. I'd say the lesser excitement around image has to do with content, and the actual reality of their business model.
> 
> For content, as good as it is, and its not really a criticism, I just wish it was more comic booky if that makes any sense. I feel like a lot of the creators are trying to make very sophisticated material. Certainly nothing wrong with that, but personally I feel that a lot of the fun that comes with comics can go out the window when that direction is taken. I kind of get the vibe that a lot of the creators want to escape the stigma around comics and to be considered serious artists like an auteur film maker would be, and I think in a lot of cases they're overcompensating, we need a few more cool, basic, comic friendly series like Copperhead and Invincible from image if you ask me.
> 
> As for the business model, yeah you win big if your series really hits, but at the end of the day you're basically working on commission, which just isn't sustainable for a lot these series and their creators


I can relate to theat motion quite a bit. One of my problems with a lot of indie titles is the general feeling that i - and to some extend the creators - would like to experience the story as a tv series or a movie. 

I know it seems hart towards some creators, but i often think, that the same story as a tv show would be a lot better than as a comic.

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## Tayne Japal

The excitement still exists for me. They delays don't bother me as I always have something to read coming from the publisher (as you can tell from the 30+ image titles in my signature). It just comes down to dedicated creative teams being the deciding factor for me. I read 3/4 of my comics digitally, and image comics usually drop to $1.99 after a month on comixology (I have an extensive backlog). That price drop allows me to try out more comics than I would normally purchase.

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## The Cheat

I dropped nearly everything when I realised I was reading too much and couldn't remember all the details of each independent story month to month (never mind longer gaps due to delays). Buying floppies for throw away, 'no thinking required' Marvel/DC stuff is fine, but for stories as intricate as Brubaker/Hickman/Ellis' stuff I'm much happier waiting until series are finished and then buying in trade.

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## rui no onna

> I dropped nearly everything when I realised I was reading too much and couldn't remember all the details of each independent story month to month (never mind longer gaps due to delays). Buying floppies for throw away, 'no thinking required' Marvel/DC stuff is fine, but for stories as intricate as Brubaker/Hickman/Ellis' stuff I'm much happier waiting until series are finished and then buying in trade.


Lol, I have the same problem.  :Big Grin: 

I just find trade or digital easier (no need to lift long boxes to grab back issues). Even DC/Marvel, I'm only buying books with free digital copies.

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## numberthirty

I am still incredibly excited by the idea of creators being able to tell the exact story they want to on the exact time table that they want to.

While that obviously slaps the old "Twelve Monthly Issues A Year" checker board off of the table, I don't really have a problem with that. It gives creators the freedom to work on other things as well. Those other things might be just as important as the Image Comics work is to me.

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## WaxHawk

> I am still incredibly excited by the idea of creators being able to tell the exact story they want to on the exact time table that they want to.
> 
> While that obviously slaps the old "Twelve Monthly Issues A Year" checker board off of the table, I don't really have a problem with that. It gives creators the freedom to work on other things as well. Those other things might be just as important as the Image Comics work is to me.


Exactly how I feel.

I also read in trades so it works perfectly fine for me.

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## M L A

Well it was pretty exciting when popular writers started popping up there to do their first couple books, but that novelty seems to have worn off.

And a lot of books have delays that are unexplained or go on for aaaaages.

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## extra skater

> Hype is overrated





> The boom a few years ago was pretty crazy. Big name creators were announcing books left and right.


Feels like the 90's.

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## GOLGO 13

Not enough product on a monthly basis? 

Inconsistency? 

Delays?  

So really, just wake me when the trade shows up on Amazon.

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## Stefan

I like superhero comics and I prefer a monthly ongoing series. I don't have the feeling Image does much of that anymore.

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## sven

Image seems obsessed with horror titles right now. Horror really doesn't do anything for me so it's caused me to cool on them a bit too.

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## armlessphelan

I think the only Image books I'm even kinda reading anymore are Spawn and Savage Dragon. Delays and obvious "writing this comic so I can sell it as a TV show or movie" stories are a turnoff for me. I do also read Top Cow stuff, but for whatever reason I tend to classify them as separate from the rest of Image.

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## Black Urizen

I think much of Image's Fanbase was based on *Spawn*. Spawn is one of the greatest comic books of all time in my opinion, but Spawn's storytelling became diluted after Spawn #200, then #250. I'm a huge fan of issue #100 and the conclusion of Urizen and Malebolgia. I think there's more storyline they could have used, but the Spawn series went a different direction.

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## JFP

> Another post made me want to start this discussion.
> 
> Enthusiasm for the Image slate, in a relative sense, is waning. There are a lot of good books, and sales aren't poor I don't think, but it used to be much more popping here as well as elsewhere - and the announcement of a new series doesn't seem to make anyone take note these days.
> 
> This isn't to bash Image, they do a lot of great stuff and give a ton of creators a chance to shine. I'm more interested in constructive criticism.
> 
> What used to work that isn't anymore?
> 
> Is there something the company's doing wrong?
> ...


The announcement of a new series doesn't make anyone take note anymore? It's because people know there's a more than 95% chance the book will be delayed or abruptly cancelled without warning; there's a 4% chance the book will be cancelled or delayed with warning; and 1% chance it'll make it past 2 years (and I'm being generous with the 1%).

What can Image do to get back on the tip of peoples' tongues? Put out comics that actually finish. Does a book need to be an ongoing series? What's wrong with 1 shots? Short story comics? Or miniseries? A completed story, regardless of length, will always be more appreciated than an incomplete story.

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## Dark-Flux

> The announcement of a new series doesn't make anyone take note anymore? It's because people know there's a more than 95% chance the book will be delayed or abruptly cancelled without warning; there's a 4% chance the book will be cancelled or delayed with warning; and 1% chance it'll make it past 2 years (and I'm being generous with the 1%).
> 
> What can Image do to get back on the tip of peoples' tongues? Put out comics that actually finish. Does a book need to be an ongoing series? What's wrong with 1 shots? Short story comics? Or miniseries? A completed story, regardless of length, will always be more appreciated than an incomplete story.


Source on all these hyperbolic claims?

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## Joker

You know he doesn't have any, don't even bother.

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## seismic-2

Many or maybe even most of my favorite titles are from Image, but it's hard to stay excited about a story line that is in "to be continued" limbo for so long that you forget what that story was or why you cared about it.

----------


## JFP

> Source on all these hyperbolic claims?


Where in the forum rules do I have to cite sources for my claims?

Is it really hard for you to believe the reason why people are less enthusiastic about Image than ever before is because they are jaded over the fact that the majority of series will be canceled or delayed?

----------


## Dark-Flux

> Where in the forum rules do I have to cite sources for my claims?
> 
> Is it really hard for you to believe the reason why people are less enthusiastic about Image than ever before is because they are jaded over the fact that the majority of series will be canceled or delayed?


Youre just spouting bullshit and presenting it as fact.

"The majority of series will be cancelled or delayed" , "1% chance itll make it past two years" - based on what? Youre just pulling random statistics out your ass with nothing to prove your point.

You dont _have_ to present evidence, but then nobody has any fucking reason to believe your drivel. Because you cant prove it.

----------


## JFP

> Youre just spouting bullshit and presenting it as fact.
> 
> "The majority of series will be cancelled or delayed" , "1% chance itll make it past two years" - based on what? Youre just pulling random statistics out your ass with nothing to prove your point.
> 
> You dont _have_ to present evidence, but then nobody has any fucking reason to believe your drivel. Because you cant prove it.


In the last 4 years, what percentage of Image Comics would you say has exceeded 2 years without any delays?

You can go ahead and take your time. It's a tough question. I'm sure a high percentage of Image titles exceed 2 years without any delays, right?

----------


## armlessphelan

> I think much of Image's Fanbase was based on *Spawn*. Spawn is one of the greatest comic books of all time in my opinion, but Spawn's storytelling became diluted after Spawn #200, then #250. I'm a huge fan of issue #100 and the conclusion of Urizen and Malebolgia. I think there's more storyline they could have used, but the Spawn series went a different direction.


Spawn is actually outselling quite a few Marvel books according to Diamond. It's even outselling former Image darlings like The Wicked and the Divine when it comes to monthly numbers. I think actually coming out on time without delays is a big part of why Spawn is still a solid seller despite not being as "relevant" these days.

But delays have always been a part of Image, pretty much from launch. Didn't Top Cow have to do a special guarantee for retailers in the 90s that basically promised they wouldn't be late?

----------


## Dark-Flux

> In the last 4 years, what percentage of Image Comics would you say has exceeded 2 years without any delays?
> 
> You can go ahead and take your time. It's a tough question. I'm sure a high percentage of Image titles exceed 2 years without any delays, right?


Its your hypothosis. Burden of proof lies on you.

----------


## numberthirty

> In the last 4 years, what percentage of Image Comics would you say has exceeded 2 years without any delays?
> 
> You can go ahead and take your time. *It's a tough question*. I'm sure a high percentage of Image titles exceed 2 years without any delays, right?


Here's the thing...

The question is only tough if you are going on the assumption that the plan the company had was "Each and every title the company puts out will be on a two year/one issue each month of those two years..." publishing schedule.

The whole point is that the standard schedule I mentioned isn't something this company has to stick to.

----------


## DanMad1977

Does anyone know what happend to Orc Stain? Was it ever finished? I cant even remember how the last issue ended...

----------


## FluffySheep

I might be wrong here, but don't a lot of Image titles have a "planned hiatus" for a few months to let the creative team catch up and have some issues ready to go well before they are released? This isn't really a delay if an arc is finished, then there's a few months of nothing, then the new arc starts. I don't read a huge amount of Image titles as monthlies, so I might have this wrong.

----------


## Flash Gordon

I don't really care about delays, myself. I'd much rather have a good quality book, that comes out late, than a book of lesser quality- on time. I can go without a comic book for a while, especially since sometimes creators need space to think/rethink their work. I value quality over quantity. 

The only downside is sometimes I forget after a while. I am not really into "pull lists" since I go to a couple different shops regularly (and Midtown usually has anything if I really can't find it elsewhere). Though, to make sure lesser known books are still being ordered, I may pull a few things from time to time.

Image is still "where it's at", I just haven't been really invested in anything they've put out lately. Hopefully soon! DC also has YOUNG ANIMAL going right now, and that's where so much of my attention is.

----------


## Deniz Camp

> I don't really care about delays, myself. I'd much rather have a good quality book, that comes out late, than a book of lesser quality- on time. I can go without a comic book for a while, especially since sometimes creators need space to think/rethink their work. I value quality over quantity. 
> 
> The only downside is sometimes I forget after a while. I am not really into "pull lists" since I go to a couple different shops regularly (and Midtown usually has anything if I really can't find it elsewhere). Though, to make sure lesser known books are still being ordered, I may pull a few things from time to time.
> 
> Image is still "where it's at", I just haven't been really invested in anything they've put out lately. Hopefully soon! DC also has YOUNG ANIMAL going right now, and that's where so much of my attention is.


*fades in from the shadows* 

Get invested in Maxwell's Demons, from Vault Comics! OUt soon! 

Preview here: http://io9.gizmodo.com/in-maxwells-d...dar-1809618253

*fades into shadows*

----------


## Deniz Camp

(I realize this is off topic shilling, but think it's a book many here are going to dig, and also I know Flash kinda  :Smile:  )

----------


## JFP

> Its your hypothosis. Burden of proof lies on you.


Burden of proof? 

This isn't a court of law. It's a comic book forum people come to for entertaining discussions about their favorite funny books. 

The obvious is right there: people don't like delays. Image is known for delays. Therefore, the enthusiasm has waned.



> Here's the thing...
> 
> The question is only tough if you are going on the assumption that the plan the company had was "Each and every title the company puts out will be on a two year/one issue each month of those two years..." publishing schedule.
> 
> The whole point is that the standard schedule I mentioned isn't something this company has to stick to.


It doesn't matter if it was announced or not. A delay is a delay. And the vast majority of people do not like delays. Look at the European comic industry, which puts out nothing but delayed comics. Do you think from a profit standpoint the Euro comic book industry is anything to aspire to for the American and Japanese comic industries? Of course not. That's why Marvel and DC are number one. Not because of the quality of the stories but because people can trust their books are gonna come out on schedule. Same thing with the Japanese manga industry: whatever you say about the quality of mangas is your opinion. The fact is the Japanese readers expect to receive their comics on a set schedule and most of the time their expectations are fulfilled.

I don't know how anybody can argue that the vast majority of people don't like delays, whether announced or not.

----------


## SignorMiracolo

> Where in the forum rules do I have to cite sources for my claims?
> 
> Is it really hard for you to believe the reason why people are less enthusiastic about Image than ever before is because they are jaded over the fact that the majority of series will be canceled or delayed?


Well if you state factually incorrect things people will call you out on those, you can't be surprised. 

Some books that show how what you said was completely hyperbolic and false:

Fatale, Saga, East of West, Lazarus, Kill or be killed, I Hate Fairyland, Deadly Class, Black Science, Monstress, Low, Seven to Eternity, Outcast, Descender, Wicked + Divine, Snotgirl, Black Magic, Birthright, Divided States of Histerya, Redneck, Wayward, Paper Girls, God Country, Manifest Destiny, Elephant Men, Invincible.

Some books that are famous for their delays are Bitch Planet, Sex Criminals and Injection. But they are all still going after two years.

Now it would be nice for you to show at least as much books that fit your description of «more than 95% chance the book will be delayed or abruptly cancelled without warning; there's a 4% chance the book will be cancelled or delayed with warning; and 1% chance it'll make it past 2 years» or to simply admit you were being completely and needlessly hyperbolic and false.

----------


## Joker

JFP is a troll with an axe to grind against Image Comics. It's best to ignore him. This will go on for pages and pages and you will get no answers from him, just more hyperbole. We've done this before with him and it goes absolutely nowhere. Just ignore him. 

Case in point: He's saying a planned skip month is a delay. It's not. The book isn't late. But he will not bend on this. 

Seriously, just ignore him. It's not worth anyone's time.

----------


## Dark-Flux

I dont think he's a troll. I think he's genuinely an idiot.

----------


## Joker

He only shows up to talk shit about Image Comics, so, to me that's a troll. He might be both, though.

----------


## MRP

> Burden of proof? 
> 
> This isn't a court of law. It's a comic book forum people come to for entertaining discussions about their favorite funny books. 
> 
> The obvious is right there: people don't like delays. Image is known for delays. Therefore, the enthusiasm has waned.
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it was announced or not. A delay is a delay. And the vast majority of people do not like delays. Look at the European comic industry, which puts out nothing but delayed comics. Do you think from a profit standpoint the Euro comic book industry is anything to aspire to for the American and Japanese comic industries? Of course not. That's why Marvel and DC are number one. Not because of the quality of the stories but because people can trust their books are gonna come out on schedule. Same thing with the Japanese manga industry: whatever you say about the quality of mangas is your opinion. The fact is the Japanese readers expect to receive their comics on a set schedule and most of the time their expectations are fulfilled.
> 
> I don't know how anybody can argue that the vast majority of people don't like delays, whether announced or not.


I don't know, in the European market a new Asterix volume is coming out next month and preorders are for over 5 million copies. It's been about 2 years since the last volume, which had preorders of over 5 million and ended up selling over 8 million copies in its first year available. I somehow think those are numbers the American industry could find something to aspire to there. But then the audience for Eurobooks aren't spoiled Wednesday Warriors who sacrifice quality to get a regular hit of 20 pages of story by anyone who is available to churn them out that month and who don't understand the difference between ongoing and monthly. Not all books are monthly, comics have mostly been of frequency other than monthly until the direct market took over and newsstands disappeared and the customer base has dwindled ever since without any source of new readers coming into it so American publishers aspire to sales of over 50K to be successful not the millions that sell in other markets who don't cling to the 20th century model of publishing in the 21st century.  But people can continue to believe what they want to believe and live in their own reality tunnels when it comes to comics if they want to, fo as long as those dwindling monthly sales are viable at least. 

-M

----------


## LordMikel

Here is my only counter when talking about Image and having late comics and that is what is causing the luster.  Image has been known since the company's inception about having late books.  

I simply want to make sure I understand the argument.  Are we saying the lateness of the many years is what is tiring out fans and making them be less interested, or are we thinking late comics for Image is a new thing?

Personally, I think lateness of a comic might be a factor in losing interest, but I do not think it is the main reason.

----------


## numberthirty

> The obvious is right there: people don't like delays. Image is known for delays. Therefore, the enthusiasm has waned.


This "Sorta" assertion is so goofy, I'm not even sure where to start.

Let's try something...

Tell me the exact date the next issue of the Marvel Comics' Hickman penned _SHIELD_ series will be released.

----------


## numberthirty

> That's why Marvel and DC are number one. Not because of the quality of the stories but because people can trust their books are gonna come out on schedule.


Again, we're talking about an assertion that's so goofy that it's hard to know where to start.

Are you really saying that books coming out on schedule trumps having IP that most companies would kill for and the two imprints having been folded into larger companies?

----------


## numberthirty

> It doesn't matter if it was announced or not. A delay is a delay. And the vast majority of people do not like delays. Look at the European comic industry, which puts out nothing but delayed comics. Do you think from a profit standpoint the Euro comic book industry is anything to aspire to for the American and Japanese comic industries?


Let's go ahead, and go over this in detail.

The main issue seems to be that you only seem to be capable in seeing this in "From A Profit Standpoint..." terms. One of the main strengths of Image as an imprint is that a creator can choose to let profit(in the short term) take a back seat to other concerns. That is a plus. Not a minus.

----------


## JFP

> Well if you state factually incorrect things people will call you out on those, you can't be surprised. 
> 
> Some books that show how what you said was completely hyperbolic and false:
> 
> *Fatale, Saga, East of West, Lazarus, Kill or be killed, I Hate Fairyland, Deadly Class, Black Science, Monstress, Low, Seven to Eternity, Outcast, Descender, Wicked + Divine, Snotgirl, Black Magic, Birthright, Divided States of Histerya, Redneck, Wayward, Paper Girls, God Country, Manifest Destiny, Elephant Men, Invincible.*
> 
> Some books that are famous for their delays are Bitch Planet, Sex Criminals and Injection. But they are all still going after two years.
> 
> Now it would be nice for you to show at least as much books that fit your description of «more than 95% chance the book will be delayed or abruptly cancelled without warning; there's a 4% chance the book will be cancelled or delayed with warning; and 1% chance it'll make it past 2 years» or to simply admit you were being completely and needlessly hyperbolic and false.


You have to understand that in it's more than 20 years of existence, Image has more books cancelled than ongoing. Of the books you listed that I highlighted in bold, how many have been running for more than 5 years? Why does a company that has been around since 1992, with hundreds of titles published, have a difficult time showing any books that have been around for at least 5 years without any delays whatsoever? 




> I don't know, in the European market a new Asterix volume is coming out next month and preorders are for over 5 million copies. It's been about 2 years since the last volume, which had preorders of over 5 million and ended up selling over 8 million copies in its first year available. I somehow think those are numbers the American industry could find something to aspire to there. But then the audience for Eurobooks aren't spoiled Wednesday Warriors who sacrifice quality to get a regular hit of 20 pages of story by anyone who is available to churn them out that month and who don't understand the difference between ongoing and monthly. Not all books are monthly, comics have mostly been of frequency other than monthly until the direct market took over and newsstands disappeared and the customer base has dwindled ever since without any source of new readers coming into it so American publishers aspire to sales of over 50K to be successful not the millions that sell in other markets who don't cling to the 20th century model of publishing in the 21st century.  But people can continue to believe what they want to believe and live in their own reality tunnels when it comes to comics if they want to, fo as long as those dwindling monthly sales are viable at least. 
> 
> -M


The thing that makes the Euro market so poor is that the books that actually make it to the millions are titles that have been around since our grandparents were kids. Books like Tintin and Asterix (comics that have been around since our grandparents were young) are the only Euro comics that sell. If a Euro artist wants to put out something new, he's worse off than his American or Japanese counterpart. The European comic book market isn't impressive when you consider the only comics that have impact are kids comics for when our granddads were young. At least that 50k the American artist can expect to see is attainable where the new Euro artist can't even expect 5k.




> Here is my only counter when talking about Image and having late comics and that is what is causing the luster.  Image has been known since the company's inception about having late books.  
> 
> I simply want to make sure I understand the argument.  Are we saying the lateness of the many years is what is tiring out fans and making them be less interested, or are we thinking late comics for Image is a new thing?
> 
> Personally, I think lateness of a comic might be a factor in losing interest, but I do not think it is the main reason.


Lateness over the years is tiring out fans and making them less interested. 



> This "Sorta" assertion is so goofy, I'm not even sure where to start.
> 
> Let's try something...
> 
> Tell me the exact date the next issue of the Marvel Comics' Hickman penned _SHIELD_ series will be released.


I don't read that comic so I can't answer that.



> Again, we're talking about an assertion that's so goofy that it's hard to know where to start.
> 
> Are you really saying that books coming out on schedule trumps having IP that most companies would kill for and the two imprints having been folded into larger companies?


What does IP stand for?

----------


## JFP

> Let's go ahead, and go over this in detail.
> 
> The main issue seems to be that you only seem to be capable in seeing this in "From A Profit Standpoint..." terms. One of the main strengths of Image as an imprint is that a creator can choose to let profit(in the short term) take a back seat to other concerns. That is a plus. Not a minus.


Have you talked to your local comic book retailer lately? Is there a comic book store owner on the planet who would say comic creators letting profit take a back seat is a plus or a minus?

It's not only the fans who are losing enthusiasm; it's also comic store owners. I have around 10 comic book stores within a 30 minute drive of my home. Over the years, they've been increasing their Big 2 products and significantly decreasing their Image and other indies. Their profits have increased and they are much more full. So I don't see them returning to the time when they were stocked full of comics from creators who let profits take a back seat for other concerns.

Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?

Image is a business. We can only look at things that happen with them from a business viewpoint because none of the creators would put out a comic book for free.

----------


## rui no onna

> Well if you state factually incorrect things people will call you out on those, you can't be surprised. 
> 
> Some books that show how what you said was completely hyperbolic and false:
> 
> Fatale, Saga, East of West, Lazarus, Kill or be killed, I Hate Fairyland, Deadly Class, Black Science, Monstress, Low, Seven to Eternity, Outcast, Descender, Wicked + Divine, Snotgirl, Black Magic, Birthright, Divided States of Histerya, Redneck, Wayward, Paper Girls, God Country, Manifest Destiny, Elephant Men, Invincible.
> 
> Some books that are famous for their delays are Bitch Planet, Sex Criminals and Injection. But they are all still going after two years.
> 
> Now it would be nice for you to show at least as much books that fit your description of «more than 95% chance the book will be delayed or abruptly cancelled without warning; there's a 4% chance the book will be cancelled or delayed with warning; and 1% chance it'll make it past 2 years» or to simply admit you were being completely and needlessly hyperbolic and false.


I've preordered East of West, Monstress, Kill Or Be Killed and Saga and they've all had delayed issues (1-3 months). Lazarus is still on hiatus. Black Magick just came out of a long hiatus.

----------


## MRP

> The thing that makes the Euro market so poor is that the books that actually make it to the millions are titles that have been around since our grandparents were kids. Books like Tintin and Asterix (comics that have been around since our grandparents were young) are the only Euro comics that sell. If a Euro artist wants to put out something new, he's worse off than his American or Japanese counterpart. The European comic book market isn't impressive when you consider the only comics that have impact are kids comics for when our granddads were young. At least that 50k the American artist can expect to see is attainable where the new Euro artist can't even expect 5k.
> 
> What does IP stand for?


The same can be said for the American market embodied by the big 2. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman are all 75 + years old. Tintin debuted in 1929, only 9 years before Superman. Asterix didn't premiere until 1959. 

So what comics from the big 2 are doing well that haven't been around since our  grandparents were young? 

If you are going to use 75+ year old characters, which market is healthier, one where they sell 50-100K units or one where they sell 5-8 million units?

and IP is intellectual property, something anyone who wants to discuss entertainment media in the 21st century should understand because that's what it is all about. Characters value as IP is far more extensive than the sales of the publications they themselves appear in and decisions are made based on that value, not on how many copies they can sell in one iteration. 

-M

----------


## JFP

> The same can be said for the American market embodied by the big 2. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman are all 75 + years old. Tintin debuted in 1929, only 9 years before Superman. Asterix didn't premiere until 1959. 
> 
> So what comics from the big 2 are doing well that haven't been around since our  grandparents were young? 
> 
> If you are going to use 75+ year old characters, which market is healthier, one where they sell 50-100K units or one where they sell 5-8 million units?
> 
> and IP is intellectual property, something anyone who wants to discuss entertainment media in the 21st century should understand because that's what it is all about. Characters value as IP is far more extensive than the sales of the publications they themselves appear in and decisions are made based on that value, not on how many copies they can sell in one iteration. 
> 
> -M


Deadpool, Wolverine, and Suicide Squad are comics doing well that haven't been around since our grandparents were young.

The American market is healthier: greater quantity of titles; can branch out better into different storytelling mediums like live actions movies/shows, animated movies/shows, and even illustrated fiction; gives a greater number of people work: how many comic creators have been able to make a living working at the Big 2 vs the number of comic creators have made a living working on Asterix, Tintin, and the like; can sustain whole stores: you can make a profitable comic store selling only Big 2 merchandise--how much could you make in Europe with a comic store that only sells Asterix, Tintin, and the like; etc.

The films and shows made from the Marvel and DC characters have sustained media empires. How well has Asterix and Tintin done to sustain publishing/production companies?

I would rather own the rights to the characters from the Big 2 than from Euro comics. You could make far more money off them.

Unfortunately, we have gone off topic. Sorry, OP.

----------


## Citizen Kane

> I have around 10 comic book stores within a 30 minute drive of my home. Over the years, they've been increasing their Big 2 products and significantly decreasing their Image and other indies. Their profits have increased and they are much more full.


I don't know where you live, but it seems preposterous that any comic book stores would experience significant gains by decreasing their Image stock. 




> Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?


 Yes, they most likely would. Image is a lot more popular than you seem to be giving them credit for.

----------


## GrifterWC

> Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?


I know the store I go to would. Image and the Indie books are about half his profits. A lot of his customers are sick of the big two so he needs those books and customers.
Hell, I wouldn't need to go to to his shop if he stopped ordering Image books.

For me the delays aren't a big deal. I usually don't read them right away anyway, so by the time I get to it I read the full story line in a sitting.

----------


## MRP

> Deadpool, Wolverine, and Suicide Squad are comics doing well that haven't been around since our grandparents were young.
> 
> The American market is healthier: greater quantity of titles; can branch out better into different storytelling mediums like live actions movies/shows, animated movies/shows, and even illustrated fiction; gives a greater number of people work: how many comic creators have been able to make a living working at the Big 2 vs the number of comic creators have made a living working on Asterix, Tintin, and the like; can sustain whole stores: you can make a profitable comic store selling only Big 2 merchandise--how much could you make in Europe with a comic store that only sells Asterix, Tintin, and the like; etc.
> 
> The films and shows made from the Marvel and DC characters have sustained media empires. How well has Asterix and Tintin done to sustain publishing/production companies?
> 
> I would rather own the rights to the characters from the Big 2 than from Euro comics. You could make far more money off them.
> 
> Unfortunately, we have gone off topic. Sorry, OP.


And of Deadpool, Wolverine and Suicide Squad, how many are selling more than 50K copies a month regularly without a boost from variant covers? How many have had any of their books continually in print since their inception? How many of them have ever sold multiple volumes in the millions of copies? How many of them have earned their creators a decent living and perpetual income and retirement? Oh and Suicide Squad is as old as Asterix, it premiered in Brave & the Bold in 1959, so not really a new concept. 

Asterix animated movies were making money long before Marvel had a successful movie in theaters and continue to sell well in the home video market, as do the Tintin animated features. How many big 2 books have been evergreen sellers and stayed in print for the last 50 + years and continue to sell the back catalog consistently generating revenue in significant amounts long after the initial publication and release without ever having gone out of print or been unavailable? Evergreen sellers sustain publishers far more than a comic that has a sale window of a month before it is replaced. It provided consistent revenue over the long term rather than a small influx of cash upon release and then nothing until you shell out the costs to produce another issue. The return on investment for an evergreen seller is much higher than a monthly comic with a limited shelf life. If all the revenue you generate is tied up in paying costs of production, it doesn't make you a lot of money in the short or long term. Since the $3.99 books only generate $1 of revenue for the publisher because of the Diamond middle man mark ups, a book that sells 50K copies only generates $50K in revenue for the company. Once creator costs, editorial costs, printing costs, transport costs, marketing costs, company infrastructure costs, etc. are subtracted from each issue's take, there's not much revenue left to go into the profit column, and all those costs have to be paid for  each issue produced, while an evergreen seller only pays those costs once plus royalties as it continue to sell so there is a much larger profit margin in an evergreen seller than a monthly book that has to be continuously produced to sell. 

As for the movies, well Marvel and DC see none of that money, Disney and Warner Brothers do. The revenue generated by the movies is not credited to the publishing division and is not used to figure how profitable they are. Publishing has to pay for itself, as $50k a month for 50K sales doesn't go very far along those lines. 

And the success of Asterix and Tintin sustained the creators and their families for a lifetime. I don't think Len Wein saw much money from creating Wolverine beyond the page rates he got for scripting the issue. 

So there are a lot of factors why the European model is a better business model, more profitable and better in the long run for the creative talent than the American model. 

-M

----------


## numberthirty

> Have you talked to your local comic book retailer lately? Is there a comic book store owner on the planet who would say comic creators letting profit take a back seat is a plus or a minus?
> 
> It's not only the fans who are losing enthusiasm; it's also comic store owners. I have around 10 comic book stores within a 30 minute drive of my home. Over the years, they've been increasing their Big 2 products and significantly decreasing their Image and other indies. Their profits have increased and they are much more full. So I don't see them returning to the time when they were stocked full of comics from creators who let profits take a back seat for other concerns.
> 
> Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?
> 
> Image is a business. We can only look at things that happen with them from a business viewpoint because none of the creators would put out a comic book for free.


Since I live in Illinois, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that there is quite a bit of nonsense in this post.

As for the final line, it pretty well sums up what you do not understand about the bigger picture. If you honestly think that what you believe to be a "Business Viewpoint" is how we should be looking at this, it just goes to show that you cannot grasp that "Business" is(and has been) changing for quite a while now.

----------


## numberthirty

> I know the store I go to would. Image and the Indie books are about half his profits. A lot of his customers are sick of the big two so he needs those books and customers.
> Hell, I wouldn't need to go to to his shop if he stopped ordering Image books.
> 
> For me the delays aren't a big deal. I usually don't read them right away anyway, so by the time I get to it I read the full story line in a sitting.


The only reason I am reading any DC titles is that they brought the "Wildstorm" characters back.

----------


## numberthirty

> how many comic creators have been able to make a living working at the Big 2 vs the number of comic creators have made a living working on Asterix, Tintin, and the like


You ever hear of _The Walking Dead_?

----------


## numberthirty

Let alone the money the guy makes off of _Outcast_...

----------


## JFP

MRP: you make a lot of good points and I do not wish to dispute them. I do not wish to derail the original poster's topic and get off topic. Let's just agree to disagree on the subject of American comics vs Euro comics.

numberthirty: why do you copy and paste my posts into separate posts? It's weird.




> I don't know where you live, but it seems preposterous that any comic book stores would experience significant gains by decreasing their Image stock. 
> 
>  Yes, they most likely would. Image is a lot more popular than you seem to be giving them credit for.


I didn't say significant gains. I said they're increasing their profits and more full. They see more customers on a Tuesday afternoon after the change than they did on a Friday night. The term is profit, not popularity. Is Image more profitable now than they were years ago? No.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> *fades in from the shadows* 
> 
> Get invested in Maxwell's Demons, from Vault Comics! OUt soon! 
> 
> Preview here: http://io9.gizmodo.com/in-maxwells-d...dar-1809618253
> 
> *fades into shadows*


I'm already hype as all hell for this book, brother!

----------


## Deniz Camp

> I'm already hype as all hell for this book, brother!


Thanks man!

----------


## oasis1313

I've always thought Image was a vanity hobby project for divas.

----------


## Joker

> I've always thought Image was a vanity hobby project for divas.


Cool story, bro.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Even comics are slightly increasing more and more. I mean of course it’s not going to be the same but the question is has image seen any slight increases ?

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## Kirby101

> I've always thought Image was a vanity hobby project for divas.


I mean sure. Why write creator owned properity that you can tell whatever story you want in any innovative way you can, when you can do another mega crossover event for the big two.
Sounds like you pegged it.

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## MYCMTSC

I think part of it is Saga is no longer new or as fresh as it once was.  I feel like it was a big driving force of exposing people to the rest of Image's line.  (Likewise I feel like WicDiv lost its charm and is only starting to rev up again, Rat Queens never recovered from the first volume's scandals, and....does Bitch Planet even come out anymore? lol).

I think Image's scheduling pattern of producing 4-6 issues before a brief hiatus is a brilliant one that should be an industry standard, however, I do think it is a source of lost momentum.

I still think Image is my favorite publisher, but I feel like I have to be waaay more proactive in keeping up with releases.  My childhood inclination to love Marvel ends up taking over, especially when my main pulls are on hiatus and sometimes I am slow to pick back up where I left off.

Deadly Class, Extremity, Descender, Black Magick, and Birthright have NEVER let off the gas and are consistently great titles.  

Crosswind is also great although I am not a fan of the coloring style that looks like the book is made up of photos ran through a Photoshop filter.  The Grave Diggers Union, Realm, Wytches (on too long of a hiatus for how brief the first volume was IMO), No. 1 With a Bullet, Redlands, and Sacred Creatures have all been really promising and I am super excited to see where they go.

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## sirmarkus

I've noticed that image comics are a lot harder to find in my local shops than Marvel, DC or IDW.  I've only seen them in one of the two stores in my town, and they're kept on a separate rack.  The only reason I noticed them was because the title "Shirtless Bear-Fighter" caught my eye.  Fun book too.  https://wp.me/p81uZL-n4

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## TalibanGodTrapjesusOfjerusalem

The dopaimine wore off

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## JFP

> I've noticed that image comics are a lot harder to find in my local shops than Marvel, DC or IDW.  I've only seen them in one of the two stores in my town, and they're kept on a separate rack.  The only reason I noticed them was because the title "Shirtless Bear-Fighter" caught my eye.  Fun book too.  https://wp.me/p81uZL-n4


Isn't getting the comic in the stores the job of the creator of the comic, not Image themselves? If so, that might be why they're harder and harder to find.

I've been to many stores across America and the Big 2 are just given top priority. They get the best product placement and the most shelf space. And this isn't just in comic stores. This is also in Barnes and Noble and used bookstores like Half-Priced Books. Go to some stores and a bookcase might be devoted to Marvel, another to DC, and all the rest, Image, Dark Horse, Fantagraphics, Drawn and Quarterly, Koyama Press, etc. are all scrunched together. But that's if they're lucky. Some comic stores stock indie comics in places none of their customers ever look. They might scrunch a bunch of indies over in the corner near the employee only door, or down at the bottom near the register on a shelf at your ankles. They put indies in such easy to miss places that I wonder why they bother to stock them at all. 

Like you, there's times when I only noticed an indie based on the title, cover, or because I happened to look at a certain spot and realize, "Hey, they have a stack of comics here. Huh. Who woulda thought they'd place comics on a dusty shelf in a barely let corner of the store?"

Comic book stores have the worst product arrangement I've ever seen. Some stores are so cramped and crammed with stuff that even an Oompah Loompah would have to crab walk around the aisles to be able to get around the store.

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## sirmarkus

There are two comic shops in my town and from what I've seen only one of them carries Image titles, and they're kept separately from all the other titles.  While it's easy to find the Marvel, DC and IDW stuff, as well as some of the other titles, the Image stuff is harder to find, which is too bad because they do have some really cool stuff.  Shirtless Bear-Fighter for example.  Talk about a fun book.  The WTF factor of the title made me pick up an issue.  https://wp.me/p81uZL-n4

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## JFP

> There are two comic shops in my town and from what I've seen only one of them carries Image titles, and they're kept separately from all the other titles.  While it's easy to find the Marvel, DC and IDW stuff, as well as some of the other titles, the Image stuff is harder to find, which is too bad because they do have some really cool stuff.  Shirtless Bear-Fighter for example.  Talk about a fun book.  The WTF factor of the title made me pick up an issue.  https://wp.me/p81uZL-n4


The whole separating comics based on publisher thing is absolutely ridiculous. In Barnes and Noble or Half-Priced Books, they don't separate the other books based on publisher. The mystery section isn't separated by publisher, nor is the history section, or art section, etc. Only the comics section is separated by publisher or type (manga is usually given a whole different set of book cases). I don't see why they do it. Unless they are following the comic shop example. I've been in more than a hundred comic shops across the country and only a small minority didn't separate comics based on publisher. I don't get it. Did comic store owners across the country get together and say, "Let's given the Big 2 the best product placement and stuff all the indies together in random, barely lit corners of the store"? Why bother to stock the comic at all if they're just gonna put them in places most customers don't look at?

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## Yosaltenberg

Of the 2 shops I tend to go to in my town, one sets up all the new releases and previous weeks releases in alphabetical order, and the other has a rack for DC, Marvel, and Image and then a mixed rack of others.  Both shops for their back catalogue stuff just run boxes and boxes mixed and in alphabetical order.  Its not hard to find Image comics in any of the shops close by to me, and Image is very well represented pretty much in any shop I have stopped into.  Both shops are jammed full of crap like statues, action figures, toys and anything else they decided to buy but all of their new weekly release racks for all publishers are pretty much right up front or central.

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## Javasaurus

> Of the 2 shops I tend to go to in my town, one sets up all the new releases and previous weeks releases in alphabetical order, and the other has a rack for DC, Marvel, and Image and then a mixed rack of others.  Both shops for their back catalogue stuff just run boxes and boxes mixed and in alphabetical order.  Its not hard to find Image comics in any of the shops close by to me, and Image is very well represented pretty much in any shop I have stopped into.  Both shops are jammed full of crap like statues, action figures, toys and anything else they decided to buy but all of their new weekly release racks for all publishers are pretty much right up front or central.


My regular shop handles this in much the same way. Everything is displayed on the shelves in alphabetical order; both new releases and that from the previous weeks. All of the comics from the various publishers are sitting side by side; so it's not hard to find Image books at all. 

In addition to this; there is a dedicated shelf for local talent right next to the front door when you walk in. There are also shelves dedicated to "staff picks" placed at the ends of the aisles which are in plain view. With this arrangement, it feels like all of the publishers get treated in an equal way. It's really easy to discover stuff that is published by those other than DC or Marvel.

My shop also has 4 other locations around the city. I can't say for certain that those stores have the same model; but I hope that they do.

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## Joker

This is how my store does it, too. 

They also have book shelves split up by genre for trades.

Unfortunately, like so many others lately, they are going out of business.

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## TotalSnorefest

> In addition to this; there is a dedicated shelf for local talent right next to the front door when you walk in. There are also shelves dedicated to "staff picks" placed at the ends of the aisles which are in plain view. With this arrangement, it feels like all of the publishers get treated in an equal way. It's really easy to discover stuff that is published by those other than DC or Marvel.


Sounds like a great store, love that they have a local talent section! My store is about half manga/anime and has lots of funko dolls and stuff around, which I imagine are the real moneymakers - there's always more people browsing the manga sections than the western comics. But they're great about letting you pre-order anything you want. Just gotta keep an eye on solicitations every couple of months, and they have decent back issue boxes for many indie comics so I'm not complaining.

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## skyvolt2000

> *I've noticed that image comics are a lot harder to find in my local shops than Marvel, DC or IDW. * I've only seen them in one of the two stores in my town, and they're kept on a separate rack.  The only reason I noticed them was because the title "Shirtless Bear-Fighter" caught my eye.  Fun book too.  https://wp.me/p81uZL-n4


This is probably due to store only stocking enough comics for a sell out.

Take Savage Dragon most stores in Dallas stock 2-3 copies and if you don't show up Wednesday to buy them-they sell out that day.

Saga & Wicked + Divine trades STAY on reorder with many stores. Wicked+Divine is a favorite of many libraries here.

I went to a Half Price books and was shocked to see the first 12 issues or W+D for half the price.

For Image around here since say 2010-getting complete runs of any Image book is hard.

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## Mia

> I don't really care about delays, myself. I'd much rather have a good quality book, that comes out late, than a book of lesser quality- on time. I can go without a comic book for a while, especially since sometimes creators need space to think/rethink their work. I value quality over quantity.


Ditto on this. I like a good yarn and appreciate a good solid well thought out story and good character development for six months of the year. As opposed to a rubbish mediocre story with a boring un-inspiring character every month.

I currently have two Image books on my pull list. Lazarus and Monstress. Both of which I initially discovered through browsing the trade section of my local bookstore (which keeps all trades in alphabetical order by character/title name). I also buy Thief of Thieves in trade. But that's about it. I have about 5 books on my pull list. Two are the aforementioned Monstress and Lazarus. The rest are Marvel titles whatever book Medusa from the Inhumans shows up in and two X related books.  I no longer buy any DC books because despite loving the Flash and Batman, the writing just isn't worth the expense anymore.

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## Dr. Cheesesteak

I've just been really lagging on the comic scene in general.  I'm probably 6-18 months behind on all of my titles.  But when I read Image or even see their solicitations, I still think a lot of things look awesome.  Tho it seems the major creators have been putting out less new titles recently?  

Regardless, I still have 4 monthlies and about 6-8 TPBs on my pull list from Image.  With about 5-7 recent #1's I still have to read to determine if I want to pull them.

The most recent new titles I began reading were Black Cloud and Rock Candy Mountain, just to show how behind I am.  I've still collected new titles since, just have yet to read.

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## sirmarkus

Today my shop was selling image issues for $2/issue.  So I picked up Port of Earth.  Looks like an interesting premise.

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## Martini Sigil

I think that the Skybound imprint can generate some excitement ... especially since it's geared towards translating graphic novels into TV and movies... not sure that it will... but it could...

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