# Comics  > Batman >  Selina Kyle: Catwoman Appreciation 2018

## heyevaxx

Thread: Catwoman (Selina Kyle) Appreciation
Time to restart our appreciation of the world's greatest thief, femme fatale, ready to whip, cat-like acrobat, apple of Batman's eye, Gotham parkour champion, not good, not bad, always shades of grey (purple and black), the incomparable, the amazing Catwoman!
*Catwoman from Batman: Outlaws #2 2000-10*


Original splash pic: Catwoman (2002) #37 Character Driven 2005-01

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## chipsnopotatoes

Wow. We were close to 2000 posts in the other thread. Pity it was nuked.

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## Vanguard-01

I love Selina. 

Sadly, her current book is just painful to read right now. Hopefully she'll get a better writer and a better storyline sometime soon, so I can enjoy her awesomeness again.

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## Trevel8182

Favorite Feline(Female :Wink: ) In all of comics. Hopefully she get's a ongoing relaunch soon, until then lets hope Eternal picks up the slack with the Selina love! I hope at some point again in the future we can see Selina in her Zero Year costume again, I thought it looked great.

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## SwampyCA

Cheers to Selina and the relaunch we all deserve.

I am looking forward to the Bombshells variant.

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## Ticklefist

Discussing Catwoman comics with you guys was pretty fun. Goodbye.

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## Anthonior

I like her too, she is my second favorite female character after Wonder Woman and my second favorite ship with Batman after Superman and Wonder Woman, and then there's Zatanna...

I managed to get all the volumes and reading the current one, even when it doesn't exactly have the best of writing she is still pulling some sales above one solo shots and her book keeps going. I also hope to get a new creative team maybe Azzarello might have some project regarding her as he briefly mentioned it in one episode of DC all access.

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## ABH

I'll always love Selina/Catwoman. If/when the book gets back on track, I'll be glad to start picking it up again.

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## LoneNecromancer



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## chipsnopotatoes

> image.jpg


Detective 31's variant. Don't know if Catwoman's even in it. Her own book doesn't get one. Even if she outsells Batwoman. :Mad:

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## teddyeatsyourface

A gorgeous Mike Allred variant featuring Batman 66' Catwoman (Eartha or Newmar) would be too good for the current Catwoman series. >__>

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## chipsnopotatoes

> A gorgeous Mike Allred variant featuring Batman 66' Catwoman (Eartha or Newmar) would be too good for the current Catwoman series. >__>


You could say the same for the Dodson covers.

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## chipsnopotatoes

I picked up Catwoman 30 today on a whim. I'm surprised I didn't hate it. It still has Nocenti's annoying quirks (shortcut dialogue, tell rather than show, etc.), but the overall plot is interesting enough and some things piqued my curiosity. For instance, I'd like to understand what is Nocenti's thing with teeth. I remember the Joker's dentures featured prominently on the cover of issue 13 or 14?).

While I'm not a fan of Oliffe's emaciated Selina, I like that he put her in a purple gown. It reminded me of her classic costume.

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## HowitzerJoe

I love how she has taken more and more of an anti-hero in recent years. She is sexy, smart, charismatic, and deep down has a good heart even though she is a thief. She's not out to actually harm anyone unless they deserve it I guess. I'm enjoying her and Batman working together in Forever Evil. It would be interesting if they got together for a while.

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## Michael24

I love Catwoman. My favorite female character, and probably a Top 5 overall favorite. Was always taken by her winning combination of sexiness and intelligence, and her ability to seriously kick butt. I like her best when she's the thief-with-a-heart, but I'm curious: has she ever been portrayed as an actual "bad guy," or has she pretty much always been more of an anti-hero since her creation? I've never read the earliest stories with her.

I keep hearing a lot of bad stuff about the current series, but I'm still trying to catch up. I read the first volume and enjoyed it, but haven't gotten a chance to read the second and third ones yet. But my favorite Catwoman series will probably always be the '90s one, especially the early years. Loved Jim Balent's work and how he drew her. That's been my favorite version of the character, and I wish there were more TPB volumes besides the one "Catfile" collection.

And I have to say, I'm really looking forward to seeing how she's portrayed by Camren Bicondova in the *Gotham* series. She's pretty, and when I saw the first official picture of her, I was struck by the resemblance to a young Michelle Pfeiffer. Which is perfectly fine with me, because she remains my favorite live-action Catwoman. The goggles look like a nice touch, too. I've watched a couple of her dance videos on Youtube, and holy cow this girl has some mad skills.

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## Drakul

do any of you have the Brubaker new editions? I have the old TPBs but I'm wondering if it's worth it to buy the new ones.

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## swing kinker

I got my fiance into comics mainly through catwoman. I'm a big fan of the burbaker series, great run. Only read the first two arcs of the new 52 run.....meh. Sounds like it got real bad, sad to hear

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## Punisher007

I wonder if Eternal will finally give 100% confirmation as to whether or not Carmine Falcone is her father?  I kind of hope so.

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## heyevaxx

@Michael24
I'm really looking forward to seeing how she's portrayed by Camren Bicondova in the Gotham series. She's pretty, and when I saw the first official picture of her, I was struck by the resemblance to a young Michelle Pfeiffer. Which is perfectly fine with me, because she remains my favorite live-action Catwoman. The goggles look like a nice touch, too. I've watched a couple of her dance videos on Youtube, and holy cow this girl has some mad skills.

I agree with all of this. If Camren has some acting skills and is well written and directed, she should be fantastic. I can't wait to see Gotham!

She's been dancing since she was 6, so 8 years now. Here's Camren at 14 dancing, she solos at 55 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc4i2FUcKLU#t=0m55s

She mega-fit, even for a dancer. Dance is #1 but her #2 activity is distance running. Plus, she said once she does 100 sit ups and 100 push ups everyday in addition to her homework. This might be in her genes: Camren's dad is a Navy SEAL; here they are after a workout:


Lastly, on Cam's resemblance to a young Michelle Pfeiffer here's Michelle Pfeiffer from 1985 age 27 and Camren Bicondova from 2014 age 14. Camren's got green eyes like Selina!  :Smile:

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## Punisher007

Yes, many people have commented on how much Camren looks like a young Michelle Pfeiffer.  It's kind of eerie actually.  Oh and I've seen some videos of her dancing online.  She's really athletic so she could definitely pull off action scenes.  And holy crap those abs.

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## Michael24

Jeez! I wish I had abs like that. LOL!

Browsing online last night, I was surprised by the lack of affordable Catwoman figures. Most of what I could find are $200+ statues, which are out of the question for me, but even some of the figures are going for $30 or $40+. The DC Direct Arkham City Catwoman, though, is cheap enough, so I was thinking about getting it. It looked a little iffy in some pictures, but a couple review videos I watched on Youtube made it look better.

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## chipsnopotatoes

Camren is going to grow up into a gorgeous young lady. I can't understand why her young Catwoman pics elicited so much negative comments. I recall IGN commenters were particularly vicious. Now, THAT is a board in need of a reboot.

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## Michael24

Oh, I know. Well, I've never actually been to IGN, but I've seen it elsewhere, and I just think to myself "You people really have nothing better to do than make hateful comments about a 14 year old girl?" It's really sad and pathetic.

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## chipsnopotatoes

From Gotham trailer. Bruce looks like he's about to jump off Wayne Manor while Selina watches on. I think these two will definitely meet before they become their alter egos

image.jpg

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## godisawesome

There's some potential for the show to use Bicondova's athletic abilities to give us some training for Bruce as he learns how to prowl the skylines.

Someone else already suggested that she may be a witness to his parents' murder, like in the failed musical idea. It'd be interesting to see them tie the two kids together via the same tragedy.

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## Michael24

They will definitely know each other. It's been stated that Selina is a young streetwise orphan who befriends Bruce Wayne after the death of his parents. I keep watching that *Gotham* trailer over and over. Just looks so awesome.

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## CatBoy

Welcome back Selina! I missed these parts and I come back to *poof* everything's gone. 

I have mixed feelings with how DC has been handling her lately, Nocenti's book has been flat-lining for me - but Snyder has big plans for her being the new Gotham King Pin in Eternal. I just hope that they have plans for her solo book past that with a new direction (and team) like Grayson. 

Thought it would be cool now that they did a soft-reboot on the forum to say what my first version of Catwoman was, and what's my _personal_ definitive version.

My first introduction to Miss Kyle is the Pfeiffer/Burton iteration. It was 1992-1993, I was four years old. Michelle Pfeiffer came on the screen and it was over. Then the Animated Series just solidified it. 



My definitive Catwoman comes to a dead three-way tie. All I have to say is Cooke/Brubaker, Sale/Loeb, and Adam Mother-Loving Hughes. 



I mean, come on, Mister Hughes...



Glad to be back!

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## CatBoy

> do any of you have the Brubaker new editions? I have the old TPBs but I'm wondering if it's worth it to buy the new ones.


I have all of the original TPBs but I have been picking up the new trades because they collect all the fixins' like Selina's Big Score and Secret Files and Origins AND it will collect all of Brubaker's run on Catwoman instead of cutting off at #24 like the original Volume 4: Wild Ride - and then picking back up at (ugh) Pfeifer's Run with Volume 5: The Replacements.

I also enjoy that they pack more in to each TPB, so it's easier to carry around. Perfect Travel Companions.

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## Michael24

I haven't checked out Brubaker's series yet. I picked up the first trade at my LCS awhile back, and was surprised by how cartoony the artwork was. Not really what I expected for a Catwoman book, so it seemed kind of odd. However, I've noticed that the artist changed after those early issues. Was there a big difference in the artwork after that, or did the second artist maintain a similar style?




> I mean, come on, Mister Hughes...


Oh, wow! That looks great. What is that from?

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## CatBoy

> I haven't checked out Brubaker's series yet. I picked up the first trade at my LCS awhile back, and was surprised by how cartoony the artwork was. Not really what I expected for a Catwoman book, so it seemed kind of odd. However, I've noticed that the artist changed after those early issues. Was there a big difference in the artwork after that, or did the second artist maintain a similar style?


With Brubaker's inititial run they kept variations of that Darwyn Cooke style up to #24 (but changed it up a little in between) with Cameron Stewart doing the majority of them with 13 Issues (his style resembling close to Cooke's). Then it turned to Gulacy (who is also one of my favorite Catwoman artists) who picks up at #25 to the end of Brubaker's run at #37. With Gulacy, the style became more realistic and continued with Pete Woods (who is also phenomenal - even though I wasn't a fan of the turn of the book) #44-#52 and then with David Lopez (mneh) from #53 to the end. 


(Paul Gulacy, Pete Woods, and David Lopez)

What I will say is: do yourself a favor and read Brubaker's series - even if you're not a fan of the cartoony style (I already stated that personally Cooke's Catwoman is one of my definitive versions of Selina). It is really great stuff. 




> Oh, wow! That looks great. What is that from?


Batman: Black and White #6. God, I wish Adam Hughes could do more Catwoman. *shakes fist at DC*

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## Anthonior

Selina in the Hush story arc:



Selina in Arkham city video game:



Selina making an entrance...prrrfect.

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## Hoosier X

> Selina in the Hush story arc:


The art on Hush was really magnificent. I just read it a few months ago and I am still marveling at how Jim Lee had grown as an artist since the early 1990s.

It's too bad the writing is ... not as good as the art.

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## Michael24

Stumbled across this last night. Hadn't heard of it before, but it sounds like an interesting story that reverses the roles Batman and Catwoman play in Gotham City. And I always love when Jim Balent draws Catwoman.

Will have to add it to my list.

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## Punisher007

> Stumbled across this last night. Hadn't heard of it before, but it sounds like an interesting story that reverses the roles Batman and Catwoman play in Gotham City. And I always love when Jim Balent draws Catwoman.
> 
> Will have to add it to my list.


I thought that that book was terrible.  But check it out for yourself and tell me what you think?

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## John Venus

I second the horribleness of _Catwoman: Guardian of Gotham_. It's Monech at his...Monechiest.  However, it also has a so-bad-it's-good quality to it which might appeal to some.

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## Hoosier X

> Stumbled across this last night. Hadn't heard of it before, but it sounds like an interesting story that reverses the roles Batman and Catwoman play in Gotham City. And I always love when Jim Balent draws Catwoman.
> 
> Will have to add it to my list.


What are those weird lumps where her breasts should be?

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## Ticklefist

Crazy people in this thread. Guardian of Gotham was great. Totally awesome 90s cheese.

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## Ticklefist

Here's an oldie but a goodie.

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## Michael24

I don't know if this actually by Jim Balent, or just using his Catwoman design, but I would love a full-size print of this.

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## heyevaxx

Michael24: I don't know if this actually by Jim Balent, or just using his Catwoman design, but I would love a full-size print of this.

You got it, this is a Jim Balent pencil that was painted by Joe DeVito. It was on eBay for $423k at one point:
Jim Balent’s Catwoman Is ‘The Mona Lisa of Comic Art,’ Priced at Nearly $500K on eBay

But the painting is now on eBay for a steal!  :Smile: 
eBay CATWOMAN : Original Painting By Jim Balent & Joe DeVito US $48,766.00

This $60 poster reproduction might be more reasonable:
eBay 1997 DC Comics Catwoman poster: Jim Balent/DeVito art/Batman foe/1990's US $59.99

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## chipsnopotatoes

> Michael24: I don't know if this actually by Jim Balent, or just using his Catwoman design, but I would love a full-size print of this.
> 
> You got it, this is a Jim Balent pencil that was painted by Joe DeVito. It was on eBay for $423k at one point:
> Jim Balent’s Catwoman Is ‘The Mona Lisa of Comic Art,’ Priced at Nearly $500K on eBay
> 
> But the painting is now on eBay for a steal! 
> eBay CATWOMAN : Original Painting By Jim Balent & Joe DeVito US $48,766.00
> 
> This $60 poster reproduction might be more reasonable:
> eBay 1997 DC Comics Catwoman poster: Jim Balent/DeVito art/Batman foe/1990's US $59.99


That's serious bucks. Is Joe Devito a famous artist?

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## Shadowcat

I've decided to read my entire Catwoman collection, my god, I had no idea I loved Selina so much.  She, Huntress (Wayne), Batwoman and Black Canary are my favorite femme fatales of Gotham. I really hope Selina's solo takes an upswing. I want a fabulous Selina avatar...*off to find a fabulous Selina image--ie. not in the current black costume*

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## Michael24

> You got it, this is a Jim Balent pencil that was painted by Joe DeVito. It was on eBay for $423k at one point:
> Jim Balent’s Catwoman Is ‘The Mona Lisa of Comic Art,’ Priced at Nearly $500K on eBay
> 
> But the painting is now on eBay for a steal! 
> eBay CATWOMAN : Original Painting By Jim Balent & Joe DeVito US $48,766.00
> 
> This $60 poster reproduction might be more reasonable:
> eBay 1997 DC Comics Catwoman poster: Jim Balent/DeVito art/Batman foe/1990's US $59.99


Holy cow! Yeah, definitely some serious bucks there. So far out of my reach. Even that poster reproduction is pricey for me, but I'd love to have it.




> That's serious bucks. Is Joe Devito a famous artist?


I don't know what DeVito's level of fame is, but he's done amazing work, which you can see some of on his site. http://jdevito.com/

He did this great piece for the cover of *The Further Adventures of Batman: Volume 3*, a collection of prose short stories all featuring Catwoman, published in the early-90s.

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## signalman112

Joe Devito draws awesome looking covers for the DOC SAVAGE novels Will Murray writes.
Highly recommand!

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## Jay Kay

> I love Catwoman. My favorite female character, and probably a Top 5 overall favorite. Was always taken by her winning combination of sexiness and intelligence, and her ability to seriously kick butt. I like her best when she's the thief-with-a-heart, but I'm curious: has she ever been portrayed as an actual "bad guy," or has she pretty much always been more of an anti-hero since her creation? I've never read the earliest stories with her.
> 
> I keep hearing a lot of bad stuff about the current series, but I'm still trying to catch up. I read the first volume and enjoyed it, but haven't gotten a chance to read the second and third ones yet. But my favorite Catwoman series will probably always be the '90s one, especially the early years. Loved Jim Balent's work and how he drew her. That's been my favorite version of the character, and I wish there were more TPB volumes besides the one "Catfile" collection. I recently found a Near Mint #1 on the front wall of my LCS and picked it up, then went online and ordered the next dozen issues, as well as "The Catfile."


She has been a straight-up villain before. She wasn't used for a good long while in the fifties, but she came back in Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane as a regular villain. By the 70s or so I'd say she was more or less an anti-villain--she stole, she was part of villainous schemes, but she had a moral code to her.

As for the Balent run, if you're not against digital comics, that whole run is available on Comixology.




> I wonder if Eternal will finally give 100% confirmation as to whether or not Carmine Falcone is her father?  I kind of hope so.


Well, she always was confirmed as such in the Loeb/Sale stuff, but the question has always been whether those stories themselves were in-continuity, not just that bit.

As for Eternal...considering they've made it plain that Catwoman and Falcone has some history, and with the future she's shown to have in Batman #28, I think it's very likely that she is the daughter of Falcone.




> The art on Hush was really magnificent. I just read it a few months ago and I am still marveling at how Jim Lee had grown as an artist since the early 1990s.
> 
> It's too bad the writing is ... not as good as the art.


My thing with Hush (and really all of Loeb's work on Batman) is that the mysteries of them do really kind-of suck. What is most compelling about his work was the character interactions and the emotional stories of the characters. The whole mystery of Holiday is infuriating because it breaks all the rules of good mystery storytelling, but it's remembered for the fall of Harvey Dent. The mystery of Hush is blindingly obvious, but people remember it for Batman revealing his identity to Catwoman and the close relationship they gained.




> I second the horribleness of _Catwoman: Guardian of Gotham_. It's Monech at his...Monechiest.  However, it also has a so-bad-it's-good quality to it which might appeal to some.


Basically. I have read it, and it is awful, both in terms of the redesigns for everyone (the female Alfred as french maid, for example) and the hilariously bad characterization. But if you can find it for cheap, and you're the kind that watches crappy movies to make fun of them, it's good in that regard.

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## Enigmatic Undead

From Forever Evil #3

Forever Evil 3 page 4.jpg

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## chipsnopotatoes

> Holy cow! Yeah, definitely some serious bucks there. So far out of my reach. Even that poster reproduction is pricey for me, but I'd love to have it.
> 
> 
> I don't know what DeVito's level of fame is, but he's done amazing work, which you can see some of on his site. http://jdevito.com/
> 
> He did this great piece for the cover of *The Further Adventures of Batman: Volume 3*, a collection of prose short stories all featuring Catwoman, published in the early-90s.


Oh hey I had that book. It's somewhere in my garden. Probably worm food now. Didn't know that was Joe's cover.

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## Michael24

> As for the Balent run, if you're not against digital comics, that whole run is available on Comixology.


Yeah, I'm not really big on digital comics. However, I recently ordered a batch of early issues that I found for between $0.80 and $1.30 an issue.

My DC Direct Arkham City Catwoman arrived in the mail today. I often have terrible luck taking pictures of action figures, so these were the best I could get. Really happy with it. A touch of green is missing from the right pupil, and I wish the goggles were usable, but otherwise, I think the sculpt is really nice and detailed. The bolas were a pain to get in her hand, though, because the handle is rubber instead of plastic, making it tough to get into her molded fist.

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## Trevel8182



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## CatBoy

> My DC Direct Arkham City Catwoman arrived in the mail today. I often have terrible luck taking pictures of action figures, so these were the best I could get. Really happy with it. A touch of green is missing from the right pupil, and I wish the goggles were usable, but otherwise, I think the sculpt is really nice and detailed. The bolas were a pain to get in her hand, though, because the handle is rubber instead of plastic, making it tough to get into her molded fist.


I was so excited when they announced the DC Direct Arkham City line, the Arkham Asylum line was gorgeous and I wanted to get my hands on an Arkham Catwoman - and then I got this. The paint-job on each figure is so inconsistent, and even though mine doesn't quite have the blood-shot eye look - there is definitely something wrong with her eyes. I don't understand why they went with a matte cat-suit for the life of me either - it looks... dusty.

But the Play Arts Kai figure is purrfection (had to do it). The Paint, Sculpt, Joint-age (I mean it is Play Arts Kai) - and you have the options of goggles on or off!

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## OBrianTallent

I find that I tend to really love the concept of Catwoman, but rarely love the execution of the character in books.  The run of the series has left me somewhat cold, but Batman 28 held some potentially exciting ideas and options for her character.  Plus she finally just looked sexy, something that has been missing from her comic for a long long time. 
I've tried to get into this run of her comic, but it's just fallen flat with me.  I have I think the first eight issues and have wanted to pick up the Nocenti run, but the comments keep me away.  Now, with Patrick Oliffe on art, he's a great artist but he is just not a Catwoman artist.  I'm really hoping that about the time we catch up with Batman 28 there is a big shift in her creative team to one who are more able to reflect the premise set up with her in that story.

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## Michael24

Yeah, that Square Enix figure is great. I really wanted to get that one, because it looks like it's got a bit more articulation for a better variety of poses. But no matter where I looked, it was nearly $50. A little pricey for me at the moment.

There's a new Catwoman figure in this big pack including Batman, Flash, Aquaman, Joker and others that I saw at my LCS the other day. She looked great, but apparently she's an exclusive to that pack and not available separately.

I'm happy with the DC Direct one, though. I've got it standing right here on my desk for the time being, and I think it looks pretty good. I definitely would love to get the Square Enix one at some time, though.

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## Project Initiative Cascada

> Yeah, I'm not really big on digital comics. However, I recently ordered a batch of early issues that I found for between $0.80 and $1.30 an issue.
> 
> My DC Direct Arkham City Catwoman arrived in the mail today. I often have terrible luck taking pictures of action figures, so these were the best I could get. Really happy with it. A touch of green is missing from the right pupil, and I wish the goggles were usable, but otherwise, I think the sculpt is really nice and detailed. The bolas were a pain to get in her hand, though, because the handle is rubber instead of plastic, making it tough to get into her molded fist.


That figure looks exquisite! Did you get it for a good price?

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## Michael24

I got it on Amazon for $18.99 (plus shipping). That was about the average price no matter where I looked.

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## kidstandout

in need of some good catwoman runs, any suggestions?

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## Jay Kay

> in need of some good catwoman runs, any suggestions?


The one run that is almost universally beloved is the Ed Brubaker run, which starts with the graphic novel with Darwyn Cooke called "Selina's Big Score," and continues in the second volume of the Catwoman series. 

The second-most beloved might be the Jim Balent run that had the first volume of the Catwoman on-going. It's very much influenced by the 90s, but seems to be a solid run.

Anyway, here's a bust (hurr hurr) drawn by Eddy Barrows:

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## CatBoy

> in need of some good catwoman runs, any suggestions?


_Some of my Favorite Catwoman Runs:_

*Catwoman (V2) #54-#71:* Written by Devin Grayson and was also near the end of Jim Balent's legendary run as the Artist on Catwoman. Pure fun. Grayson wrote 90's Catwoman at her greatest, and Balent at his most Balentest. From fun one-shots like #61's "Bank on It!" to one of my favorite 90's stories like #66-#71's "I'll take Manhattan." _Unfortunately never collected in TPB, but easy to pick up the single issues._

*Catwoman (V3) #1-#37:* Written by Ed Brubaker and the Artists were Darwyn Cooke, Brad Rader, Cameron Stewart, Javier Pulido, and then Paul Gulacy. The revamp that Selina needed, creating a new status-quo but respecting all the history that has happened before - Brubaker is a true master in writing. He left to write Captain America - but his impression on Catwoman lasts till today. _Collected in Catwoman Volume 1: Trail of the Catwoman, Volume 2: No Easy Way Down, and Volume 3: Under Pressure._

*Catwoman: When in Rome #1-#6:* Written by Jeph Loeb and Illustrated by Tim Sale. Classic Selina captured at her most fashionable. Ties in with TLH and DV. _Collected in TPB._

_Now on to some Good Catwoman Stories:_

*Detective Comics (V1) #569-570:* Written by Mike W. Barr and Illustrated by Alan Davis. Classic Catwoman at her finest, along with a Classic Joker. _I'm pretty sure it hasn't been collected... yet._ 

*Batman (V1) #404-#407:* Or otherwise known as *Batman Year One*. Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli. I know it's one of those given must-reads, but it would be remiss to not be on the list of good Catwoman runs. This is the story that started Selina's journey in to the new age of comics. Not loved by all Catwoman fans, but a must nonetheless. _Collected time and time again in TPB._

*Batman (V1) #608-#619:* Also known as *Batman: Hush*, Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee. A favorite with the fans, showcasing the relationship between Selina and Bruce... and Catwoman and Batman. Jim Lee draws a stellar Selina... but Jeph Loeb's writing isn't as good as... _Collected in TPB._

*Batman: The Long Halloween* and *Batman: Dark Victory:* Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale. See Catwoman: When in Rome. Another Comic-book Classic that always feels redundant when writing a list of good stories. _Collected in TPB._

*Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #11-#15:* Otherwise known as *Batman: Prey*. Written by Doug Moench and Illustrated by Paul Gulacy. One of the first great continuations of the Year One version of Catwoman. Great story that reads like a movie. _Collected in TPB._

*Batman Confidential #17-#21:* Written by Fabian Nicieza and Illustrated by Kevin Maguire. Brings Classic Catwoman and Classic Batgirl together in a fun, campy romp. _Collected in Batman: The Cat and the Bat TPB._

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## Ticklefist

> _Some of my Favorite Catwoman Runs:_
> 
> *Catwoman (V2) #54-#71:* Written by Devin Grayson and was also the last run of Jim Balent as the Artist on Catwoman. Pure fun. Grayson wrote 90's Catwoman at her greatest, and Balent at his most Balentest. From fun one-shots like #61's "Bank on It!" to one of my favorite 90's stories like #66-#71's "I'll take Manhattan." _Unfortunately never collected in TPB, but easy to pick up the single issues._


I still remember how I laughed out loud when Trickster clocked her upside the head with that chicken. My favorite Catwoman run by a stretch.

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## Jay Kay

It's not the best quality, since I think he took a photo of it, but this is a great Catwoman by Fred Benes:



And by Javier Avila:

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## Trevel8182



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## kidstandout

> _Some of my Favorite Catwoman Runs:_
> 
> *Catwoman (V2) #54-#71:* Written by Devin Grayson and was also the last run of Jim Balent as the Artist on Catwoman. Pure fun. Grayson wrote 90's Catwoman at her greatest, and Balent at his most Balentest. From fun one-shots like #61's "Bank on It!" to one of my favorite 90's stories like #66-#71's "I'll take Manhattan." _Unfortunately never collected in TPB, but easy to pick up the single issues._
> 
> *Catwoman (V3) #1-#37: Written by Ed Brubaker and the Artists were Darwyn Cooke, Brad Rader, Cameron Stewart, Javier Pulido, and then Paul Gulacy. The revamp that Selina needed, creating a new status-quo but respecting all the history that has happened before - Brubaker is a true master in writing. He left to write Captain America - but his impression on Catwoman lasts till today. Collected in Catwoman Volume 1: Trail of the Catwoman, Volume 2: No Easy Way Down, and Volume 3: Under Pressure.*
> 
> *Catwoman: When in Rome #1-#6:* Written by Jeph Loeb and Illustrated by Tim Sale. Classic Selina captured at her most fashionable. Ties in with TLH and DV. _Collected in TPB._
> 
> _Now on to some Good Catwoman Stories:_
> ...


that was the one recomended to me the most. i liked what i read up until the slam/selina stuff popped up. i just felt like the only reason it happened was to keep the status quo of bruce and selina cant be going. i'll check out the other recomendations

----------


## Jay Kay

> And by Javier Avila:


And here it is in color:

----------


## Michael24

My order of Catwoman comics arrived today. I got #1-5 & #8-11. I already had #6, 7, 12 & 13 as part of my *Batman: Knightfall* collection. I also grabbed *The Catfile* TPB, which is #15-19.

All of them ultra-cheap, but in good condition.

----------


## CatBoy

> My order of Catwoman comics arrived today. I got #1-5 & #8-11. I already had #6, 7, 12 & 13 as part of my *Batman: Knightfall* collection. I also grabbed *The Catfile* TPB, which is #15-19.
> 
> All of them ultra-cheap, but in good condition.


Congrats Michael! Have fun reading 90s Selina - you're in for quite the ride!

----------


## oasis1313

Long purple slit skirts.

----------


## TomServofan

> My order of Catwoman comics arrived today. I got #1-5 & #8-11. I already had #6, 7, 12 & 13 as part of my *Batman: Knightfall* collection. I also grabbed *The Catfile* TPB, which is #15-19.
> 
> All of them ultra-cheap, but in good condition.


I have them too.

She has been my comic book dreamgirl for 25 years since i read the comics to Batman/Catwoman and watched reruns of the 60's show along with other comic book ladies like BlackCat, Abigale Arcane, Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Ivy and so much more. I thought she looked fine in the purple suit with long hair which is my fave one and i like the new look for her now.

I did saw Batman Returns in theaters as i thought Michelle looked sizzling as Selina/Catwoman and i even thought Catwoman/Selina on Batman TAS was foxy as well.

----------


## ABH

Thought this was a pretty cool piece:



a few more:

----------


## ABH



----------


## CatBoy

> 


Love. This.

----------


## Smart

Sholly Fisch is doing the futures end story, I really loved his one shot and since the current arc with nocenti is ending the issue prior, I really hope this is a permanent change! That said, I do kinda hate forced universe wide cross overs.

----------


## ABH

> Sholly Fisch is doing the futures end story, I really loved his one shot and since the current arc with nocenti is ending the issue prior, I really hope this is a permanent change! That said, I do kinda hate forced universe wide cross overs.


That would actually be pretty great.

I'd really like to read Catwoman again.

----------


## Michael24

Jim Balent. I believe this was done for a cover of *Wizard*. My best friend and I used to joke that Selina's costume then was little more than body paint with some gloves, boots and a mask. Haha!



This is another favorite of mine I stumbled across somewhere.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> That would actually be pretty great.
> 
> I'd really like to read Catwoman again.


Except that artist just draws one ugly Catwoman. Selina looking anorexic with Sonic the Hedgehog hair.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Jim Balent. I believe this was done for a cover of *Wizard*. My best friend and I used to joke that Selina's costume then was little more than body paint with some gloves, boots and a mask. Haha!
> 
> 
> 
> This is another favorite of mine I stumbled across somewhere.


That's by Stanley Lau. Wish she looked as good as either of those in her comics.

----------


## Jay Kay

Here's some great artwork by Bill Sienkiewicz:

----------


## Diggy

> My order of Catwoman comics arrived today. I got #1-5 & #8-11. I already had #6, 7, 12 & 13 as part of my *Batman: Knightfall* collection. I also grabbed *The Catfile* TPB, which is #15-19.
> 
> All of them ultra-cheap, but in good condition.


That's dope how much you have to pay for all that?

----------


## Michael24

Not including shipping, it was $14.09. Would have been $8.10 without "The Catfile." All the singles were between $0.80 and $1 each.

I got them from www.mycomicshop.com, which is where I buy probably 95% of the comics I get online.

----------


## CatBoy

Speaking of, I'd love to see a current-iteration of Zephyr. I know she's a pure 90s one-tone misunderstood oversexed villainess, but I'd love to see a (good) writer on her.

----------


## BatGlamorous

The Balent series is so underrated, I wish it wasn't doomed to always be in the Brubaker series' shadow. I credit its back-issues for getting me into comics at all. I do admit that some things about it have aged rather poorly over time, the corny villains being a big one. :P

----------


## CatBoy

> The Balent series is so underrated, I wish it wasn't doomed to always be in the Brubaker series' shadow. I credit its back-issues for getting me into comics at all. I do admit that some things about it have aged rather poorly over time, the corny villains being a big one. :P


I think it's all about how you look at it - Volume 2 (or the "Balent" series) was just pure 90s fun - and the fans that grew up with it, like myself, or the fans that now being introduced to it can enjoy and appreciate it in all its glory. But, lets not forget, after Balent left at issue #77- the series took a turn for the worst and went in to a downward spiral. 

Initially, when Brubaker and Cooke were about to take over, they were going to just continue Volume 2 - but decided that with their change of status-quo to just relaunch the series in to Volume 3. What I loved about the relaunch is that Brubaker respected everything before and didn't ignore anything (even the not-so-great stuff.) What Brubaker did was revitalize Catwoman and make her an enjoyable read once again, though now more stylish and a little more serious.

So, I wouldn't say that Volume 2 was "doomed to always be in [Volume 3's] shadow," because it was just a continuation of Selina's story - and although generally more respected by the masses, doesn't mean it's in Volume 3's proverbial shadow. Apples and Oranges.

----------


## TomServofan

That purple suit with long hair version has always been my favorite version.

What do you all think of TAS versions of Selina Kyle?



The blonde version i thought was hot since i was 11 when i saw that show on Fox and i thought she looked like Michelle Pfeifer, Adrienne Barbeau's voice was sooo seductive as her on the show.

The brunette version i dug when i was a teenager watching WB's seasons and when i saw that episode where she was in her night clothes, i had wild fantasies about her.

Who else thought Michelle was gorgeous in Batman Returns?


I did at age 11 when i saw the movie in theaters as Michelle was always one of my boyhood crushes.

----------


## Jay Kay

TAS' Catwoman was...okay. I don't remember her having any really bad episodes, but she never had any great, stand-out moments, IMO.

As for the Catwoman in Batman Returns...I'm not gonna lie, it's probably my favorite take of her outside of the comics. Yes, she's one of the more drastically different takes, but she had a really interesting story arc in contrast to Batman's--and their chemistry together was absolutely electric. I mean, don't get me wrong, Hathaway was fantastic as Selina, and I'll admit that a bit of my love for it comes from nostalgia, but I have watched the movie not even a few weeks ago, and I think it still holds up.

----------


## Punisher007

TAS Catwoman was good, but not as good as she could have been.  I liked the character design, I liked the costume, and I really liked the voice actress.  But I always felt like she was underused in that show.  She didn't appear often enough and although I liked her when she did show up, the showrunners didn't do enough to make her appearance memorable enough.

I have a very mixed opinion of Catwoman in Batman Returns.  I love Michelle Pfeiffer's performance and she looks hot as Hell both in the suit and out, but I just wasn't a fan of how the character was written.  She never really screamed "Catwoman" to me.  She was more like "generic Burton freak #225."  My feelings are the same for the Penguin in that movie as well (great performance by Danny DeVito, but a poorly written character).

----------


## heyevaxx

@Jay Kay
+1 on MP in BR

I agree very much regarding Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns. Between Michelle's masterful performance, the extreme (and very non-canonical) Penguin and even Schreck poor Batman was really was just along for the ride. Despite this, Keaton did an excellent job and his having dated Pfeiffer helped charge their interaction.

While Pfeiffer's Catwoman isn't dark haired and she has a new origin story for the movie, she really captured the grey quality of Selina from the comics: unpredictable, not 100% good, not 100% bad, willing to break rules, steal, fiercely independent with a human, caring inner nature.  And her chemistry with Batman/Bruce was stunning! Her scene with Bruce and Schreck after her fall, their date at Wayne Manor, the classic ballroom scene and the climatic (and tragic for Bat&Cat fans) unmasking at the end. Wow, just wow.

Now Hathaway gave a blow out performance in Les Miserables despite not being a Wolverine-level, pro-singer or having much screen time. I think she very much deserved her Oscar for that.

But ... in The Dark Knight Rises I was super excited about Catwoman's return to film but also very nervous. But if Heath Ledger could follow up Jack with a knock out Joker, maybe Anne could create another great Catwoman (or just Selina).

Sadly, no. I think Anne was fine for the "look": slim, fit dark haired, very attractive. She has the acting chops, no doubt. But the writing she had to work with was sub-optimal.

The TDKR Catwoman Good:
- she looked great, nice suit, liked the weaponized heels
- she was a thief, a big canonical plus, nicely done
- good plot point from the comics about her wanting to wipe her record
- nice canonical nod to Holly (despite her movie name of Jen)

The TDKR Catwoman Bad: (putting on my lava proof suit)
- zero chemistry with Bruce/Batman, the 2 times they kissed were "so what" moments for me, this could also be a Bale issue
- no origin story, something would have been nice
- she uses a handgun instead of a whip! Terrible
- her change to "good" and coming back for Batman didn't resonate
- never called Catwoman in the movie (a small but irritating thing)

So the big negative was the lack of chemistry with Batman/Bruce. Without this working any Catwoman portrait is going to fail IMO. Of course this could be a writing issue but Christian Bale might be part of it.

No matter, there were great moments in TDKR, for mostly from Bane plus a few nice Selina moments. Maybe Anne will come back in a non-Nolan Selina/Catwoman movie which she's expressed interest in. They better hurry and not wait years and years like they did with Michelle Pfeiffer. Until then a new Catwoman comes to film (Halle's doesn't count), there's always Batman Returns.

----------


## Michael24

I love the animated series version of Selina. Adrienne Barbeau added so much personality and seductiveness with her sultry voice, and I always loved the way she was drawn outside of the costume. The blond hair, the big green eyes, the curves; I know it's just a cartoon, but damn she was gorgeous! However, I wasn't crazy about the changes to her for *TNBA*, in terms of her design. In fact, I didn't really like most of the design changes they did for that show. All of the female characters suffered the worst, going from looking like real women in *BTAS* to skinny little pixie sticks in *TNBA*.

After lots of rumors and denials, I was excited to eventually learn Selina would be in *The Dark Knight Rises*. Lookswise, I thought Anne Hathaway was great. The costume could have been a little better, but it wasn't bad, and there's no denying she looked incredible in it. I love her little cat-like strides in a few parts, and of course, straddling that Batpod through the streets of Gotham wasn't bad either. Hehe! I also liked the touch with her mask forming cat ears when pushed up onto her head. But, actingwise, I thought she gave only a mediocre performance, and didn't have much chemistry with Christian Bale. I also thought she was rather underwritten as well, too.

Michelle Pfeiffer remains my favorite live-action Catwoman. As mentioned above, I enjoyed her character arc, she had great chemistry with Michael Keaton (their dance scene is so much better than the one with Bale and Hathaway), and I thought she gave a really good performance. It's a long read, but here is a great article I found showing how the *Batman Returns* Selina relates to the source material.

She clearly made an impact as Catwoman, especially with us guys who were just impressionable young teenagers back in 1992. I think it goes without saying that for a whole generation, Michelle Pfeiffer _is_ Catwoman.

----------


## TomServofan

> @Jay Kay
> +1 on MP in BR
> 
> I agree very much regarding Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns. Between Michelle's masterful performance, the extreme (and very non-canonical) Penguin and even Schreck poor Batman was really was just along for the ride. Despite this, Keaton did an excellent job and his having dated Pfeiffer helped charge their interaction.
> 
> While Pfeiffer's Catwoman isn't dark haired and she has a new origin story for the movie, she really captured the grey quality of Selina from the comics: unpredictable, not 100% good, not 100% bad, willing to break rules, steal, fiercely independent with a human, caring inner nature.  And her chemistry with Batman/Bruce was stunning! Her scene with Bruce and Schreck after her fall, their date at Wayne Manor, the classic ballroom scene and the climatic (and tragic for Bat&Cat fans) unmasking at the end. Wow, just wow.
> 
> Now Hathaway gave a blow out performance in Les Miserables despite not being a Wolverine-level, pro-singer or having much screen time. I think she very much deserved her Oscar for that.
> 
> ...





> TAS Catwoman was good, but not as good as she could have been.  I liked the character design, I liked the costume, and I really liked the voice actress.  But I always felt like she was underused in that show.  She didn't appear often enough and although I liked her when she did show up, the showrunners didn't do enough to make her appearance memorable enough.
> 
> I have a very mixed opinion of Catwoman in Batman Returns.  I love Michelle Pfeiffer's performance and she looks hot as Hell both in the suit and out, but I just wasn't a fan of how the character was written.  She never really screamed "Catwoman" to me.  She was more like "generic Burton freak #225."  My feelings are the same for the Penguin in that movie as well (great performance by Danny DeVito, but a poorly written character).


Yes Catwoman's hair color was different in the movie but you have to remember in a few issues of the comic she dyed her hair blonde to disguise herself and did anyone else thought of Michelle Pfeifer and Danny Devito when they first saw Selina and Penguin on TAS? it was like the show was a semi-spinoff to Burton's movies and the comics combined.




Who else dug Meriwether and Newmar's takes on the character? i did since i was 8 when i saw reruns of the 60's show and when i rented the 1966 movie on video, they were boyhood crushes of mine. Both fit the role perfectly you know.


Who else thought Frank Miller's  Sinead O'Conner take on Selina Kyle was ugly looking? she looked like a man and not very attractive.

----------


## Punisher007

> I love the animated series version of Selina. Adrienne Barbeau added so much personality and seductiveness with her sultry voice, and I always loved the way she was drawn outside of the costume. The blond hair, the big green eyes, the curves; I know it's just a cartoon, but damn she was gorgeous! However, I wasn't crazy about the changes to her for *TNBA*, in terms of her design. In fact, I didn't really like most of the design changes they did for that show. All of the female characters suffered the worst, going from looking like real women in *BTAS* to skinny little pixie sticks in *TNBA*.
> 
> After lots of rumors and denials, I was excited to eventually learn Selina would be in *The Dark Knight Rises*. Lookswise, I thought Anne Hathaway was great. The costume could have been a little better, but it wasn't bad, and there's no denying she looked incredible in it. I love her little cat-like strides in a few parts, and of course, straddling that Batpod through the streets of Gotham wasn't bad either. Hehe! I also liked the touch with her mask forming cat ears when pushed up onto her head. But, actingwise, I thought she gave only a mediocre performance, and didn't have much chemistry with Christian Bale. I also thought she was rather underwritten as well, too.
> 
> Michelle Pfeiffer remains my favorite live-action Catwoman. As mentioned above, I enjoyed her character arc, she had great chemistry with Michael Keaton (their dance scene is so much better than the one with Bale and Hathaway), and I thought she gave a really good performance. It's a long read, but here is a great article I found showing how the *Batman Returns* Selina relates to the source material.
> 
> She clearly made an impact as Catwoman, especially with us guys who were just impressionable young teenagers back in 1992. I think it goes without saying that for a whole generation, Michelle Pfeiffer _is_ Catwoman.


See, I didn't find the chemistry between Keaton and Pfeiffer to be all that believable either.  He just kind of likes her because she's hot, no matter that it's painfully obvious that she's batshit insane (and it's blatantly obvious that she was from the first scene in that board room).  I never bought it.

----------


## Trevel8182

Clark and Selina sitting in a tree! :Embarrassment:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Clark and Selina sitting in a tree!


How gorgeous! Love Jae Lee. That's Earth 2 Clark, right?

----------


## TomServofan

> Clark and Selina sitting in a tree!


Cute picture no doubt, Superman is quite a ladies man just like Batman is.

Check out this cool tribute to her set to that song from the 1985 Fright Night:

----------


## FHIZ

> How gorgeous! Love Jae Lee. That's Earth 2 Clark, right?


No, the book is back on regular earth after a one shot issue in #12 on Earth 2.

----------


## nepenthes

That's a really cool cover. Who knew Jae Lee could do _whimsical_?  :Cool:

----------


## BatGlamorous

by *Norm Breyfogle*



Classic.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Trevel8182



----------


## ABH



----------


## ABH



----------


## ABH



----------


## ABH



----------


## Michael24



----------


## TomServofan

WOW, i loves that *love hearts*


Ok fellows which version of the costume on TAS was better?






Doesn't matter to me yet the later season's redesign costume is based on Tim Burton's Catwoman costume as much as Selina Kyle in the first 3 seasons was based on Pfeifer's Selina.

Say uh and speaking of different versions of Catwoman/Selina Kyle, any guys here thought this version of Selina Kyle was strangely hot?

----------


## ABH

> WOW, i loves that *love hearts*
> 
> Ok fellows which version of the costume on TAS was better?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter to me yet the later season's redesign costume is based on Tim Burton's Catwoman costume as much as Selina Kyle in the first 3 seasons was based on Pfeifer's Selina.


Interestingly enough, I preferred the B:TAS Catwoman suit/design, but for Selina, I preferred the TNBA look/design. 

I get that B:TAS Catwoman/Selina and Penguin were influenced (mandated?) by Burton's Batman Returns, but I've never liked the blonde look for Selina.




> Say uh and speaking of different versions of Catwoman/Selina Kyle, any guys here thought this version of Selina Kyle was strangely hot?


I do love that Tyger, Tyger B:TAS episode, but mainly for the Tygrus character.

----------


## Michael24

> Ok fellows which version of the costume on TAS was better?


Definitely the BTAS version for me. I didn't really care for most of the re-designs done for TNBA. Especially the ladies, whom I thought suffered the worst. They lost their figures and were essentially turned into just boney little pixie sticks.

----------


## TomServofan

> Interestingly enough, I preferred the B:TAS Catwoman suit/design, but for Selina, I preferred the TNBA look/design. 
> 
> I get that B:TAS Catwoman/Selina and Penguin were influenced (mandated?) by Burton's Batman Returns, but I've never liked the blonde look for Selina.
> 
> 
> 
> I do love that Tyger, Tyger B:TAS episode, but mainly for the Tygrus character.


Yes Batman TAS in the first 3 seasons were Burton influenced even if WB forced Timm to make Selina and Penguin look like the movie versions yet TNAB's version of Catwoman was Burton inspired on the costume don't you think?

I too love the Tyger Tyger episode ABH  as it's one of my favorite episodes for good reasons and Tygrus was cool indeed but did you too thought Selina in mutated form was eye-poppingly *wolf whistle* when you first saw that episode? i remembered when i was 12 watching that episode on my birthday 21 years ago on a rerun on Fox with my friends and i remembered when Selina appeared out of the shadows with her new look i was saying "What the hell?" all surprised then after commercial break when she did that seductive pose in the exhibit i said "MY GOD she is HOT!" as i whistled and howled at her as my jaw was dropped during the entire episode staring at her and i was fantasizing about her, my best friend was teasing me, LOL. Brings back memories and i fantasized about Catwoman in any version whether it's blonde/brunette from TAS, Pfeifer/Newmar/Meriwether versions, comic versions minus Year One and even that version during puberty and teenhood. And do you agree mutated Selina is on par as other 80s/90s cartoon felines like Callie briggs from Swat Kats, M'ress from Star Trek TAS, Cleo from Heathcliff, Mirage on Aladdin, Kit Mambo from Animalypics, Pam and Polly from Eek The Cat, Aisha Clan Clan from Outlaw Star, Felicia from Darkstalkers, Jenny from Bucky O'Hare, Pumarya and Cheetara from Thundercats ABH?

----------


## BatGlamorous

I've always been drawn to her TNBA costume. It's practical and sexy without being too hammy (plunging zippers, boob socks, etc.) and I think it could work well in the comics. Jae Lee's Catwoman is a pretty good example.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

This will always be my favorite.

image.jpg

From Alex Ross.

----------


## Michael24

Wow! That's a great one.

Another from Alex Ross:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

image.jpg

Julie Newmar

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

By Shawn van Briesen

Selina as a really classy dame. Before she was DCnUked

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

By Jill Temaki

----------


## John Venus

> Attachment 2562
> 
> Selina as a really classy dame. Before she was DCnUked


Selina by the way of Ava Gardner. Love it! 




> image.jpg
> 
> By Jill Temaki


That's one hell of a classy pic. Love it!

----------


## Michael24

More Alex Ross Catwoman:

 

And a colorful take on Classic Catwoman:






> image.jpg
> 
> Julie Newmar


Wow! What an amazing statue!

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Selina by the way of Ava Gardner. Love it! 
> 
> 
> That's one hell of a classy pic. Love it!


I've always thought Selina was more Ava than Audrey.

----------


## John Venus

> I've always thought Selina was more Ava than Audrey.


Me too.  Ava has that mature sexiness that suits Selina while Audrey has that young innocent type of sexiness to her.

----------


## Shadowcat

Tim Sale's When in Rome covers always send a chill down my spine.

----------


## Shadowcat

I just picked up the first 25 issues of the 90's series for a steal (my originals were ruined while in storage). I cannot wait to get this series back in my hands.

----------


## Shadowcat

Proof is in the puddin'. We need purple in Selina's life



I'm trying to find a amazing image of Selina from her 90's series to make into an avatar. Any help from fellow Catfans?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Proof is in the puddin'. We need purple in Selina's life
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to find a amazing image of Selina from her 90's series to make into an avatar. Any help from fellow Catfans?


Do you like mine? It's by Alex Ross. Also love the Tim Sale covers and the effort he put into them.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> More Alex Ross Catwoman:
> 
>  
> 
> And a colorful take on Classic Catwoman:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! What an amazing statue!


I love that one with cats. He was auctioning it on Ebay for proceeds to go to an animal shelter. Unfortunately, I was too late in bidding.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

By Joelle Jones. She has a few more black and whites of classic Catwoman. I'll have to dig further to find the others

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Ben Oliver. I'd love to see this guy draw her book. He also drew this fabulous page from BatSup

----------


## Michael24

By Cameron Stewart:

----------


## Michael24

I love the Disney vibe!

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

> Julie Newmar fans will be glad to know that Sideshow Collectibles and Tweeterhead are in their corner with this new 11.5-inch tall maquette diorama. The August-shipping piece comes complete with giant cat for the lithe burglar to lean against and a recently stolen diamond.


http://www.sideshowtoy.com/collectib...erhead-902188/

----------


## Michael24

Man, I would love to own that statue. Sideshow makes such great products, but I can rarely ever afford any of them. Especially their statues.  :Frown:

----------


## ABH

More of the Purrrple Catwoman

----------


## ABH



----------


## Diggy

> More of the Purrrple Catwoman


Damn that last one is great

----------


## Michael24

Great additions, ABH. Really love that classic costume.



I've always wavered back and forth on whether or not I like there being a tail on Selina's costume.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

^ gorgeous stuff! That Dustin Nguyen batcat proves that costume wasn't ugly at all.

Here's one of Selina inspired by Tim Sale's

image.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Catwoman of Shanghai!

BTW, how do you guys post pictures without them getting minimized?

----------


## ABH

> BTW, how do you guys post pictures without them getting minimized?


We're linking from the source, using the [ img ] image tags, instead of uploading them to CBR.

----------


## Shadowcat

> ^ gorgeous stuff! That Dustin Nguyen batcat proves that costume wasn't ugly at all.
> 
> Here's one of Selina inspired by Tim Sale's
> 
> image.jpg


Who thought that costume was ugly? It's my favorite.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Who thought that costume was ugly? It's my favorite.


Pseudo Catwoman fans  :Smile: 

That and the skirt are my favorite. Newmar/Hathaway are good too.

----------


## Michael24

> BTW, how do you guys post pictures without them getting minimized?


I upload my pictures to an online image host (I've been using www.tinypic.com because you can upload without having an account), then use the Direct Link URL they provide.

Copy-and-paste it here, then put [img] before the link and [/img] after it.

----------


## Shadowcat

lol

This is the current background to my phone

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> We're linking from the source, using the [ img ] image tags, instead of uploading them to CBR.





> I upload my pictures to an online image host (I've been using www.tinypic.com because you can upload without having an account), then use the Direct Link URL they provide.
> 
> Copy-and-paste it here, then put [img] before the link and [/img] after it.


Thanks both. Is there a way link directly to tumblr images?

----------


## ABH

> Thanks both. Is there a way link directly to tumblr images?


You should be able to right-click the image and select "view image" (may be diferrent depending on your browser), then copy and post the image url/address here. Put those IMG tags around it, and then you're set.

----------


## Michael24

Pretty much the same way, by using the image's direct link. You should be able to get this by right-clicking on the image and selecting something like Copy Image Location. I think it varies if you're using a Mac or PC, and even depending on what browser you're using, but it should be something. I'm on a PC with Firefox, so for me it's Copy Image Location, but if you're using something else, I'm sure somebody can help you out with what to look for exactly.

EDIT: Haha! ABH beat me to the punch.

----------


## ABH

> Pretty much the same way, by using the image's direct link. You should be able to get this by right-clicking on the image and selecting something like Copy Image Location. I think it varies if you're using a Mac or PC, and even depending on what browser you're using, but it should be something. I'm on a PC with Firefox, so for me it's Copy Image Location, but if you're using something else, I'm sure somebody can help you out with what to look for exactly.
> 
> EDIT: Haha! ABH beat me to the punch.


Heh, your response is a bit more thorough, though. Between the two responses, I'm sure chips will figure it out.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Pretty much the same way, by using the image's direct link. You should be able to get this by right-clicking on the image and selecting something like Copy Image Location. I think it varies if you're using a Mac or PC, and even depending on what browser you're using, but it should be something. I'm on a PC with Firefox, so for me it's Copy Image Location, but if you're using something else, I'm sure somebody can help you out with what to look for exactly.
> 
> EDIT: Haha! ABH beat me to the punch.





> Heh, your response is a bit more thorough, though. Between the two responses, I'm sure chips will figure it out.


Thanks! I'm using an ipad so I had to figure out how to copy URL. I went back and edited my posts. Was bugging me that they were so tiny  :Smile:

----------


## Stormcrow

What's everyone's take on Will Pfeifer's run? Just got the wonderful Brubaker trades and I'm wondering if I should continue from there.

Don't have any experience whatsoever with Pfeifer's writing, but I've heard mixed to negative reviews and from the TPB descriptions the plots don't look so good with Holly taking over and Selina having a baby... I just don't know.

The main draw for me so far is David Lopez as penciller for most of the run, and those amazing Adam Hughes cover who might just be the ultimate Catwoman for me.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

TDKR Cats sideshow doll. Expensive but really high quality.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Balent pencil. Missing her trademark long curly hair. He draws a very pretty Selina.

----------


## Michael24

Anybody have this? Published in 2004. I picked it up several years ago at a Crown Books liquidation sale for about $5. I've always loved these "Visual Guide" reference books by Dorling Kindersley (DK), and also have ones for Batman, James Bond, Spider-Man and Indiana Jones.

----------


## Michael24

A few more images:

----------


## ABH

> Anybody have this? Published in 2004. I picked it up several years ago at a Crown Books liquidation sale for about $5. I've always loved these "Visual Guide" reference books by Dorling Kindersley (DK), and also have ones for Batman, James Bond, Spider-Man and Indiana Jones.


I have the DK Batman and the DCU Visual Guides, but I didn't even know they made one for Catwoman.

---

Here's some '60s TV Catwoman art:

----------


## ABH

This one seems a bit cross-generational, but it's cool:

----------


## ABH

Bruce Timm style:

----------


## ABH

for fun:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

You're on a tear there ABH. We can never have enough Newmar  :Smile:  BTW, did you know that she grows prize roses? She's really more like Ivy in real life  :Smile:

----------


## ABH

I love all the varying artistic interpretations with Catwoman -- like Batman, almost any style can work...

Here's a few headshots:

----------


## Michael24

Great pics you've been finding, ABH. Love 'em!

Always kinda seemed to me like Lee Meriwether gets a little overlooked in the line of Catwomen, but she's one of my favorites.

----------


## Michael24



----------


## CatBoy

> What's everyone's take on Will Pfeifer's run? Just got the wonderful Brubaker trades and I'm wondering if I should continue from there.
> 
> Don't have any experience whatsoever with Pfeifer's writing, but I've heard mixed to negative reviews and from the TPB descriptions the plots don't look so good with Holly taking over and Selina having a baby... I just don't know.
> 
> The main draw for me so far is David Lopez as penciller for most of the run, and those amazing Adam Hughes cover who might just be the ultimate Catwoman for me.


For me the Adam Hughes covers are the only really great thing about the Pfeifer run. And the Pete Woods' art on #44-52 was pretty spectacular. But, as for the rest of it - mneh. 

But, I will say to Will Pfiefer's credit - his run doesn't suffer clearly as much as the current Nocenti run. His Catwoman is very captivating and well written. But, what his run does suffer from is the story plot-points... *WARNING-SPOILERS* I mean from the making Selina a mom, to the Incestual Baby-Daddy Drama, and then you have the Zatanna Mind Control, to the whole Black Mask being Murdered, Pfeifer just leaves much to be desired.

And as far as the David Lopez art, it's okay... His Selina isn't the same classy chic Selina from early in the run, and can we talk about the coloring? Brown Hair? Blue Eyes? A Blue Catwoman Costume? (I get that occasionally Selina's eyes are blue, but there are some odd color choices throughout his tenure on Catwoman). He also drew my least favorite version of the Cooke/Brubaker Costume (i.e. her boots). But, overall his art wasn't horrible.

So, overall - I would say try it if you want a read a continuation of the story that Brubaker laid out. But, just know it's not going to be nearly as groundbreaking.

----------


## CatBoy

> Anybody have this? Published in 2004. I picked it up several years ago at a Crown Books liquidation sale for about $5. I've always loved these "Visual Guide" reference books by Dorling Kindersley (DK), and also have ones for Batman, James Bond, Spider-Man and Indiana Jones.


Yes, I love the DK Catwoman Guide, I also love the great little book "Catwoman: The Life and Times of a Feline Fatale," it's a cute, witty guide to the history of Catwoman up to the beginning of the Brubaker/Cooke Catwoman.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Yes, I love the DK Catwoman Guide, I also love the great little book "Catwoman: The Life and Times of a Feline Fatale," it's a cute, witty guide to the history of Catwoman up to the beginning of the Brubaker/Cooke Catwoman.


Have to hunt me a copy of that. Those Russian aliases are new to me. Since they're revisiting her origin again wonder if they'll make something out of it to pick up one of those Winick flashbacks

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## chipsnopotatoes

More Selina in this trailer. Camren delivers.

----------


## heyevaxx

@chipsnopotatoes
Thanks! The Villains trailer looks great. I can't wait to see Camren's young Selina!

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## harashkupo

> 





> 


Wow those are the coolest Catwoman pics I've ever seen, especially that first one.

----------


## Punisher007

> @chipsnopotatoes
> Thanks! The Villains trailer looks great. I can't wait to see Camren's young Selina!


It is a bit odd that she's in the "villains" trailer, yet she's on the "heroes" side of the poster.

----------


## spark627

Anyone read todays issue? I decided this is my last issue until there is a new writer. I am really not enojoying it anymore and half of it doesn't make sense. How did Catwoman get that car to South Asia... where the hell did Rat Tail come from? Why did Gotham City Cops travel to South Asia to stop the race...??

----------


## heyevaxx

@Punisher007
It is a bit odd that she's in the "villains" trailer, yet she's on the "heroes" side of the poster. 

And note how in the poster she's on the right with the good guys but up on fire escape, not exactly standing with them.

I think the ambiguity is perfect since Catwoman has (at least since Year One) been in between a villain who murders and a hero who always combats wrong.

Even when black suit Selina was the protector of the East End playing the good guy, she wasn't just a simple law enforcement hero: no killing people not in "the game," no drugs with kids and no stealing from East End folks were her rules. Sort of "law enforcement lite" in comparison to Batman's binary right and wrong approach. And even in the 90s, purple suit Catwoman who stole like crazy would occasionally have moral moments and do the right thing to help someone. And she never murdered (except Black Mask but that was very exceptional).

Anyway, I hope and think the Gotham producers have done their Selina/Catwoman homework. I can't wait to see!

----------


## Michael24

New character poster for *Gotham*.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

> Anyone read todays issue? I decided this is my last issue until there is a new writer. I am really not enojoying it anymore and half of it doesn't make sense. How did Catwoman get that car to South Asia... where the hell did Rat Tail come from? Why did Gotham City Cops travel to South Asia to stop the race...??


Catwoman Wacky Races Edition

----------


## heyevaxx

Ann Nocenti is at least consistent with her corny stories, weird, non-stop dialog and (worst of all) terrible characterization of Selina.

I still think the all time worst Catwoman writer is still Bronwyn Carlton who did 14 of the last 18 of purple suit Catwoman issues from 2000-2001. Carlton was simply writing another character, I really can't imagine what the editors were thinking if anything at all. Either John Moore tried to save the title and failed or he was simply brought in to wrap it up for the last 3 post-Carlton issues. But this set the stage for black suit Catwoman by Brubaker, the best run ever for Selina IMO.

But Nocenti, wow, it's bad. How many times does she have characters say "dude?" Old, young, cops, villains, etc - everyone has the same voice! And Selina completely lacks class and has almost no gravitas.

I know New52 Selina is supposed to be young and reckless but Nocenti writes her as silly and irreverent. Plus Nocenti's world feels ... off. Not realistic. Things happen that seem odd, even surreal. E.g. working for the GCPD, "Wacky Races" cars, suddenly appearing is South Asia, etc.

I can only hope that as Nocenti drives Selina's title into the ground so far (can it go any lower?) that Catwoman will have a Brubaker-esque resurrection soon.

But alas no. I thought Nocenti would do Race of Thieves (so, so stupid **) as a farewell before a new creative team does a restart. After Race of Thieves, Catwoman #34 starts a new story about Selina buying a house. Sigh. Maybe she won't be working for the GCPD anymore (what the #*$% ?!?!?).

I have to imagine the Catwoman title is a dream or an alternate Earth while all of Selina's other appearances are her *real* life.

[edit for spelling]

----------


## spark627

> Ann Nocenti is at least consistent with her corny stories, weird, non-stop dialog and (worst of all) terrible characterization of Selina.
> 
> I still think the all time worst Catwoman writer is still Bronwyn Carlton who did 14 of the last 18 of purple suit Catwoman issues from 2000-2001. Carlton was simply writing another charterer, I really can't imagine what the editors were thinking if anything at all. Either John Moore tried to save the title and failed or he was simply brought in to wrap it up for the last 3 post-Carlton issues. But this set the stage for black suit Catwoman by Brubaker, the best run ever for Selina IMO.
> 
> But Nocenti, wow, it's bad. How many times does she have characters say "dude?" Old, young, cops, villains, etc - everyone has the same voice! And Selina completely lacks class and has almost no gravitas.
> 
> I know New52 Selina is supposed to be young and reckless but Nocenti writes her as silly and irreverent. Plus Nocenti's world feels ... off. Not realistic. Things happen that seem odd, even surreal. E.g. working for the GCPD, "Wacky Races" cars, suddenly appearing is South Asia, etc.
> 
> I can only hope that as Nocenti drives Selina's title into the ground so far (can it go any lower?) that Catwoman will have a Brubaker-esque resurrection soon.
> ...


Agree 100%. Her stories are pointless and contain elements that make ZERO sense. Again, how does a GC police officer have jurisdiction in South Asia? How the heck did Rat Tail randomly show up there as if South Asia is a train ride away...???

----------


## FHIZ

> But alas no. I thought Nocenti would do Race of Thieves (so, so stupid **) as a farewell before a new creative team does a restart. After Race of Thieves, Catwoman #34 starts a new story about Selina buying a house. Sigh. Maybe she won't be working for the GCPD anymore (what the #*$% ?!?!?)..


There's noting to say that's a new story arc, could just be a one and done issue to fill a gap. The Eternal status quo shift should be coming fairly soon.

----------


## Smart

100 per cent agree. Weird murder mystery (clearly setting up the next catwoman buys house story - which makes me hope it's a one and done) told alongside nonsensical wacky races. This on paper should've been an easy story to write, just another arc ruined by bad execution. How can no one in editorial not ask "where did rat tail come from"? 

Don't even get me started on rat tail, he was introduced as a dealer who uses kids to push his "product" when he landed in the pit in the underground arc he should've stayed there.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Nocenti's stories read like a script from Joel Schumacher's Batman movies. Campy as hell but with a touch of dark humor.  It should be fun and entertaining but it just falls flat.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

New video on Gotham. We see Camren and David explaining what their relationship will be like. I get the feeling this won't be all that different from nu52 Cats obsessed with Bats. Ugh! I see Geoff Johns ugly hand in this. Want him far far away from Catwoman.

----------


## heyevaxx

@chipsnopotatoes



> New video on Gotham. We see Camren and David explaining what their relationship will be like. I get the feeling this won't be all that different from nu52 Cats obsessed with Bats. Ugh! I see Geoff Johns ugly hand in this. Want him far far away from Catwoman.


Thanks for the video link!

Geoff Johns doesn't have Gotham on his IMDB credits - is he involved somehow?

Is the Geoff Johns concern about Camren saying "later on I do know that I will get close to him?"

Here's what Camren Bicondova and David Mazouz said:
Camren: _So far we haven't met each other yet ..._
David: [he interrupts] _I mean you're watching me like I've cre..._
Camren: [she cuts back in] _I'm talk_ [she giggles] _but, um, later on I do know that I will get close to him and James Gordon because I know some information that they don't._
[later]
David: _This is a chapter that has never been told before, so it's gonna to be a challenge because we all know where Bruce Wayne starts. So going from that to being Batman it's going to be progressively becoming that._

I really like the chemistry between the two young actors. Both seem energetic and smart and into their roles. And young Bruce had better learn not to talk over young Selina!  :Smile:

----------


## OBrianTallent

I'm thinking they are just letting Nocenti bide her time until the end of Eternal with the new status for Selina.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.  Although it would be cool to have a writer who could write stories that detail Selina's change along the way showing her slow change in attitude.

----------


## heyevaxx

I was wondering about the business side of how Catwoman is doing. While most forum commenters and reviewers dislike Nocenti and are anxious for a new team, it's probably just a dollar analysis by DC executives.

So I wanted to look at the sales figures for the last 9 Catwoman issues and compare it to the 2000s and 1990s runs of the same issue numbers. It seems that many titles putter out over time and get rebooted to boost sales so comparing the same issue numbers would be fare.

It's interesting - there may be hope for a change soon!

The last 2 issues, #30 and #31, written by Nocenti have fallen a lot to 118 and 121 with both issues below 21,000 sold. Black suit Catwoman didn't drop below 21,000 sales until issues #64 and #65.

Also, the stronger Nocenti sales from #23 to #28 might have been related to the Joker's Daughter, a guest writer or Gothtopia tie ins.

Kind of neat to see how highly ranked Purple suit Catwoman was. Maybe the competition was weak or Michelle Pfeiffer's performance gave the comic a lasting boost.

Here's the raw data. Note, in the 90s they listed an "order index" and not "est. sales."

ranking - title - issue - cost    -    sales    -    notes

Purple suit 1990s:
040	Catwoman #24	$1.95	65.30
032	Catwoman #25	$2.95	72.89
035	Catwoman #26	$1.95	70.61
039	Catwoman #27	$1.95	67.92
027	Catwoman #28	$1.95	68.70 
029	Catwoman #29	$1.95	67.90
033	Catwoman #30	$1.95	67.30 
025	Catwoman #31	$1.95	75.90

Black suit 2000s:				
093	Catwoman #23	$2.50	22,924
113	Catwoman #24	$2.50	23,165
082	Catwoman #25	$2.50	26,299
085	Catwoman #26	$2.50	24,595 
076	Catwoman #27	$2.50	25,030
082	Catwoman #28	$2.50	23,948
094	Catwoman #29	$2.50	23,811
098	Catwoman #30	$2.50	24,287
092	Catwoman #31	$2.50	24,238

Nu52:						
085	Catwoman #23	$2.99	32,158	2 months sales
072	Catwoman #24	$2.99	35,134	Joker's Daughter
075	Catwoman #25	$3.99	29,471	Layman, Not Nocenti
075	Catwoman #26	$2.99	26,482	Joker's Daughter
087	Catwoman #27	$2.99	24,956	Gothtopia
087	Catwoman #28	$2.99	23,974	Gothtopia
105	Catwoman #29	$2.99	22,236	Fisch, not Nocenti
118	Catwoman #30	$2.99	20,968	Nocenti
121	Catwoman #31	$2.99	20,144	Nocenti

----------


## ABH

New fan art:


http://crisdelarastudio.deviantart.c...Meow-463982451

----------


## Cape and Cowl

With Sorrentino off of Green Arrow, he's now free to slide into Gotham with Catwoman.   :Smile:

----------


## ABH

> With Sorrentino off of Green Arrow, he's now free to slide into Gotham with Catwoman.


I think Sorrentino is a fine artist, but not for Catwoman.

----------


## Cape and Cowl

Hmm...I don't know man.  I think this style could really be special in a Catwoman series.

----------


## Nick Miller

sorentino and Lemire on Catwoman would be amazing.

like only 1% of artists are doing what he does

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## Mgoldman14

I love catwoman, I like how she has a dark side to her. I'm not a fan or the unzipped suit because it distracts readers from her character. At least for me it does

----------


## CatBoy

SO EXCITED that Nocenti is leaving the title... finally. Her writing will be better suited for Klarion. The Jae Lee cover is just icing on the cake. 



I'm excited for the series to get a revamp and a new direction -

----------


## CatBoy

Also, I'm loving the Monster Variant for #35 in October. Two of my favorite things: Catwoman + Halloween!

----------


## OBrianTallent

> SO EXCITED that Nocenti is leaving the title... finally. Her writing will be better suited for Klarion. The Jae Lee cover is just icing on the cake. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm excited for the series to get a revamp and a new direction -



definitely prefer her without the mask in his version than with it.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm still not sold on the "Selina as the Kingpin" idea.  Wilson Fisk is a VERY bad guy who does horrible and despicable things on a daily basis as part of "doing business."  You have to be willing to go there to be any kind of successful crime boss.  Selina, on the other hand, works much better as a "shades of grey" character who can do amoral things, but is ultimately a good person underneath.  Does she order the shops of people who refuse to pay protection money to be burned to the ground, or have them kneecapped?  Does she blackmail, intimidate, or threaten people into supporting her?  Does she order witnesses against her to be threatened or even killed, and so on?  Because that's what a crime boss does.  I'm not sure that they can reconcile those two ideas.  I DO NOT want Selina as a full-on villain, period.  But we'll see how it goes.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> SO EXCITED that Nocenti is leaving the title... finally. Her writing will be better suited for Klarion. The Jae Lee cover is just icing on the cake. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm excited for the series to get a revamp and a new direction -


I love Jae Lee's work but that is one homely cat! It looks like it ate one of her fingers.

----------


## tbgo

> I love the animated series version of Selina. Adrienne Barbeau added so much personality and seductiveness with her sultry voice, and I always loved the way she was drawn outside of the costume. The blond hair, the big green eyes, the curves; I know it's just a cartoon, but damn she was gorgeous! However, I wasn't crazy about the changes to her for *TNBA*, in terms of her design. In fact, I didn't really like most of the design changes they did for that show. All of the female characters suffered the worst, going from looking like real women in *BTAS* to skinny little pixie sticks in *TNBA*.
> 
> After lots of rumors and denials, I was excited to eventually learn Selina would be in *The Dark Knight Rises*. Lookswise, I thought Anne Hathaway was great. The costume could have been a little better, but it wasn't bad, and there's no denying she looked incredible in it. I love her little cat-like strides in a few parts, and of course, straddling that Batpod through the streets of Gotham wasn't bad either. Hehe! I also liked the touch with her mask forming cat ears when pushed up onto her head. But, actingwise, I thought she gave only a mediocre performance, and didn't have much chemistry with Christian Bale. I also thought she was rather underwritten as well, too.
> 
> Michelle Pfeiffer remains my favorite live-action Catwoman. As mentioned above, I enjoyed her character arc, she had great chemistry with Michael Keaton (their dance scene is so much better than the one with Bale and Hathaway), and I thought she gave a really good performance. It's a long read, but here is a great article I found showing how the *Batman Returns* Selina relates to the source material.
> 
> She clearly made an impact as Catwoman, especially with us guys who were just impressionable young teenagers back in 1992. I think it goes without saying that for a whole generation, Michelle Pfeiffer _is_ Catwoman.


As far as I'm concerned, Pfeiffer still owns the role. No one captured the very essence of that character like she did. It was perfect from head to toe. She's the reason why we even have a "Catwoman" comic today. She was so popular. The _Returns_ Catwoman was actually pretty damn close to the comic book Catwoman, and was heavily inspired by "Her Sister's Keeper" which came out just a few years prior...

"From Comic to Pfeiffer's Cat"

http://www.batman-online.com/feature....fTZbg4lt.dpbs

----------


## tbgo

> SO EXCITED that Nocenti is leaving the title... finally. Her writing will be better suited for Klarion. The Jae Lee cover is just icing on the cake. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm excited for the series to get a revamp and a new direction -


I love the first image! I wish that artist was book's main artist. They really need to overhaul and streamline Catwoman's costume already. This would be the perfect time to do so.

----------


## Ticklefist

I heard this was the page to go to if you wanted to see that Jae Lee Catwoman cover.

----------


## CatBoy

> I heard this was the page to go to if you wanted to see that Jae Lee Catwoman cover.


hahah do I detect a hint of shade?

By the way here is the Catwoman "Selfie" variant by Stephane Roux... 



It's okay but why couldn't Adam Hughes do it?

----------


## catbatfan

The selfie cover is cute. I only buy variant covers for Catwoman, so DC's been getting extra money from me lately (June, next month, then October for the Monster variant).

----------


## catbatfan

What should DC do to celebrate Catwoman's 75th anniversary next year? I am hoping for a 75th Anniversary hardcover anthology. Batman's getting one this month and Joker is getting one soon (even though his 75th isn't until next year). Catwoman is the most iconic female Bat character and Batvillainess and certainly deserves a collection of her own.

I am also hoping for a relaunched ongoing (new number one) with an A-list creative team and hopefully a redesigned costume.

----------


## tbgo

> What should DC do to celebrate Catwoman's 75th anniversary next year? I am hoping for a 75th Anniversary hardcover anthology. Batman's getting one this month and Joker is getting one soon (even though his 75th isn't until next year). Catwoman is the most iconic female Bat character and Batvillainess and certainly deserves a collection of her own.
> 
> I am also hoping for a relaunched ongoing (new number one) with an A-list creative team and hopefully a redesigned costume.


New costume, new writers, relaunch.

----------


## ABH

I really like this one:

----------


## catbatfan

I would really like to see Jim Balent's take on the Darwyn Cooke costume.

----------


## Michael24

> What should DC do to celebrate Catwoman's 75th anniversary next year? I am hoping for a 75th Anniversary hardcover anthology. Batman's getting one this month and Joker is getting one soon (even though his 75th isn't until next year). Catwoman is the most iconic female Bat character and Batvillainess and certainly deserves a collection of her own.


Finally releasing some trades of Catwoman's first series, from the '90s, would be nice.

----------


## catbatfan

> Finally releasing some trades of Catwoman's first series, from the '90s, would be nice.


Agreed. DC seems loathe to reprint anything pre-52 these days, though. Last year I pre-ordered a solicited Impulse TPB by Mark Waid but they cancelled it!

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Agreed. DC seems loathe to reprint anything pre-52 these days, though. Last year I pre-ordered a solicited Impulse TPB by Mark Waid but they cancelled it!


They're releasing her 90's series slowly but surely online.

----------


## catbatfan

> They're releasing her 90's series slowly but surely online.


I own every issue in print (I've been collecting comics on a monthly basis when it first came out 21 years ago), but I would love to have some nice trade paperbacks. But it's great that the 90s series is available for those who want to read it digitally. Hopefully DC will do the same for Peter David's Young Justice and Supergirl.

----------


## Michael24

Yeah, for those who want it digitally, it's great that it's available that way.

I didn't think my LCS had any, because there were none in the regular back issues. But last week I stumbled across a bunch of issues in a $1 box, so I plan to start picking them up.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Gotham trailer. We see a little more Selina at the end.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Agreed. DC seems loathe to reprint anything pre-52 these days, though.


Not quite true.

----------


## catbatfan

> Not quite true.


True to some extent, but they are very clearly ignoring the 90s.

----------


## RubberLotus

> True to some extent, but they are very clearly ignoring the 90s.


Pity, too. I've always been a huge fan of 90s Bat-comics. They gave us some of the finest explorations of character depth - especially in the villains. And pound for pound, I think that the 90s gave us more funny Joker stories than any other decade.

----------


## HowitzerJoe

> As far as I'm concerned, Pfeiffer still owns the role. No one captured the very essence of that character like she did. It was perfect from head to toe. She's the reason why we even have a "Catwoman" comic today. She was so popular. The _Returns_ Catwoman was actually pretty damn close to the comic book Catwoman, and was heavily inspired by "Her Sister's Keeper" which came out just a few years prior...
> 
> "From Comic to Pfeiffer's Cat"
> 
> http://www.batman-online.com/feature....fTZbg4lt.dpbs


I agree. I just wish we had the quality of super hero films back then, that we do today. I would like to see young Pfeiffer as Catwoman now.

----------


## catbatfan

> I agree. I just wish we had the quality of super hero films back then, that we do today. I would like to see young Pfeiffer as Catwoman now.


The Tim Burton movies are high quality (and IMO superior to the Nolan ones). I love any movie that uses practical effects as opposed to CGI.

----------


## Punisher007

Except that Gotham looked too much like a set (especially in _Returns_), the plots were nonsensical and full of holes, Batman was a sociopathic mass-murderer, the Penguin and Catwoman were characterized poorly, although DeVito and Pfeiffer's performances were excellent, Burton was so obsessed with the villains that he forgot about the guy who's name is in THE TITLE, and it was "style over substance," like a lot of Burton's work.  _Batman 89_ is still enjoyable despite this, but I really don't like _Returns._  Frankly, _Batman Forever_ was more of a Batman movie than either of the Burton films.

----------


## Michael24

> The Tim Burton movies are high quality (and IMO superior to the Nolan ones).


Always nice to see someone who's not afraid to say that.  :Smile:  They are still my favorites as well and the only (live-action) Bat-films I own.

----------


## HowitzerJoe

> The Tim Burton movies are high quality (and IMO superior to the Nolan ones). I love any movie that uses practical effects as opposed to CGI.


What? Nolan's films barely have any CGI in them. Can't say the same about Burton's work today now that he has access to technology and effects that he didn't before (Did you see Alice in Wonderland?)

I don't mind Burton's ambiance in those films along with most of the performances, but there are a plethora of problems narrative wise. Especially in Returns. And one issue in particular that isn't true to the spirit of the character of Batman at all. I don't mind certain liberties being taken in any rendition of a story, but some things shouldn't be changed with iconic characters.

----------


## catbatfan

> What? Nolan's films barely have any CGI in them. Can't say the same about Burton's work today now that he has access to technology and effects that he didn't before (Did you see Alice in Wonderland?)
> 
> I don't mind Burton's ambiance in those films along with most of the performances, but there are a plethora of problems narrative wise. Especially in Returns. And one issue in particular that isn't true to the spirit of the character of Batman at all. I don't mind certain liberties being taken in any rendition of a story, but some things shouldn't be changed with iconic characters.


I completely and strongly disagree with you, but I'm not interested in debating it, so let's agree to disagree.

----------


## catbatfan

> Always nice to see someone who's not afraid to say that.  They are still my favorites as well and the only (live-action) Bat-films I own.


Same here. Nolan's films weren't Batman movies---they were crime dramas with a guy in a Bat costume. Burton's films were stylish and entertaining. I loved the stories, acting, characterization, costumes, action, etc. And let's face it, who saw The Dark Knight and _didn't_ want to slit their wrists afterward? Totally nihilistic and miserable.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I think the Nolan and Burton films are just reflections of the times they were made. The 90s had a lot of more "true-to-form" superhero flicks with ridiculous costumes and corny dialogue, whereas the 00s took a more serious "crime drama" approach to the genre. They're both good for different reasons and I can't say I honestly prefer one style over the other. I do largely prefer Pffiefer's Catwoman over Hathaway's, though my complains with her are based mainly in the plot and not the actress herself. She was barely given a chance to have any personality! Token "anti-hero with a shady past" archetype, not much more.

----------


## Michael24

> Same here. Nolan's films weren't Batman movies---they were crime dramas with a guy in a Bat costume. Burton's films were stylish and entertaining. I loved the stories, acting, characterization, costumes, action, etc. And let's face it, who saw The Dark Knight and _didn't_ want to slit their wrists afterward? Totally nihilistic and miserable.


Yeah, I thought *The Dark Knight* was wildly overrated. I do admit to liking *The Dark Knight Rises*, largely because I was happy to finally see a good live-action Bane, plus a lot of story material was drawn from the "Knightfall" arc, which I've always loved. But I agree, the Burton films are so much more stylish and entertaining, Gotham is (*gasp*) gothic like it should be, and plus they're just plain _fun_.

Anyway, back to Catwoman. I was mistaken about the issues I found at my LCS being in the $1 boxes. I went back today and realized they were actually in "Miscellaneous Singles" boxes, so I wasn't able to get as many as I thought I would because they were between $3-$5. For now, I just picked up #0, #20, #22, #23 and Annual #2.

----------


## catbatfan

> The 90s had a lot of more "true-to-form" superhero flicks with ridiculous costumes and corny dialogue


I'm sorry but those are two things not present in the Burton films.

----------


## catbatfan

> Yeah, I thought *The Dark Knight* was wildly overrated. I do admit to liking *The Dark Knight Rises*, largely because I was happy to finally see a good live-action Bane, plus a lot of story material was drawn from the "Knightfall" arc, which I've always loved. But I agree, the Burton films are so much more stylish and entertaining, Gotham is (*gasp*) gothic like it should be, and plus they're just plain _fun_.
> 
> Anyway, back to Catwoman. I was mistaken about the issues I found at my LCS being in the $1 boxes. I went back today and realized they were actually in "Miscellaneous Singles" boxes, so I wasn't able to get as many as I thought I would because they were between $3-$5. For now, I just picked up #0, #20, #22, #23 and Annual #2.


I agree your assessment of The Dark Knight Rises. It was a bit more fun than Nolan's other Bat-films mainly because of Catwoman (and Talia died! YAY!!!). 

Nice haul! I love Catwoman Annual #2. It revised Catwoman's Year One origin (and erased Her Sister's Keeper), which made me very happy.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I'm sorry but those are two things not present in the Burton films.


You're right, I actually got the Burton and Schumaker films mixed up somehow. :S

I still think that the Burton films and Nolan films were made with two very different audiences in mind, though.

----------


## catbatfan

> You're right, I actually got the Burton and Schumaker films mixed up somehow. :S
> 
> I still think that the Burton films and Nolan films were made with two very different audiences in mind, though.


Yes, that's true, there's not much crossover between fans of these films. Most either like one or the other (although the dislike of Schumaker seems universal).

----------


## HowitzerJoe

> I'm sorry but those are two things not present in the Burton films.


"Just the pussy I've been looking for".




> I completely and strongly disagree with you, but I'm not interested in debating it, so let's agree to disagree.


Sure. If you have time though you should watch this review. Pretty much nails my feelings on Batman Returns.




In my opinion the majority of the film just gets more and more ridiculous with age. It's definitely a product of the 90's and evidence that superhero films were in their infancy and weren't as refined as they are today. Superman The Movie is the only one my opinion that has stood the test of time over all these years.

There are a couple of full length commentaries to both of Burton's films by the name of a YouTuber named Oliver Harper. He and another associate do a fantastic job of profiling both of Burton's films. The ups and mostly downs. 

I will say that I still enjoy some aspects to both of those films. Especially the first Burton film. For nostalgic reasons for the most part. Also some of the production design and music. When you learn to look at it with a critical eye though from a narrative standpoint, there are a lot of issues. When you feel like talking about it we can discuss it at another point in length. Probably in another thread.

----------


## ABH

Guys, let's get this back on-topic, please.

"Catwoman/Selina Kyle Appreciation".

----------


## Michael24

Stumbled across this on Youtube last night. Not a great song, but I think it's pretty catchy.

----------


## heyevaxx

I saw this fanart at this tumblr.

I'm excited for the show and really hope they write and direct Bicondova well to get a great young Selina.

----------


## ABH

Heh, thought this was pretty cool...

----------


## Smart

Not even sure why I picked up the latest issue lol but my god October cant get here soon enough! Im betting the sales will take a HUGE dip and then pick up again in October.

----------


## Lokimaru

How come there's no Thread celebrating Batman & Catwoman?

----------


## Shimbo

So I've never really read much of Catwoman, but have always liked her as a concept. But I picked up the recent reprints of Brubaker's run and damn, do I love Selina. I know some people dislike Brubaker's for making her more of a heroine, but I think he gave her a great voice, supporting cast, and really explored her moral shades of grey and her place in Gotham. So now I want to read more Selina! Do you guys have any suggestions for more great Catwoman stories? I've heard Pfeifer's run was good, but I'd like to hear some opinions before I spend any dough.

----------


## John Venus

> So I've never really read much of Catwoman, but have always liked her as a concept. But I picked up the recent reprints of Brubaker's run and damn, do I love Selina. I know some people dislike Brubaker's for making her more of a heroine, but I think he gave her a great voice, supporting cast, and really explored her moral shades of grey and her place in Gotham. So now I want to read more Selina! Do you guys have any suggestions for more great Catwoman stories? I've heard Pfeifer's run was good, but I'd like to hear some opinions before I spend any dough.


If you haven't, try Selina's Big Score by Darwyn Cooke.   

I haven't read most of Pfieffer's run but it's generally well received and it had a great art style. 



IIRC, two very controversial moments in Catwoman's history takes place during Pfieffer's run.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

New catwoman inks from Garry Brown https://twitter.com/GarryBoom/media

----------


## catbatfan

It would be nice if they allowed Selina to grow her hair out. So sick of the short hair!

----------


## Michael24

> It would be nice if they allowed Selina to grow her hair out. So sick of the short hair!


I've never minded the short hair, but I do miss the long dark locks she had during the Jim Balent days.

And speaking of Selina with long hair, which story does she appear like this in? I love it!!

----------


## catbatfan

Looks like Tim Sale's art from Catwoman: When in Rome.

----------


## TomServofan

She does look good with long hair

----------


## ABH

> New catwoman inks from Garry Brown https://twitter.com/GarryBoom/media


Yep, that's a get, right there.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Not too keen on the generic mafia suit but at least it's better than that stupid black leather getup she's been sporting these past few years.  Also, he short hair hasn't look that good since Cooke last drew her.

----------


## Ticklefist

On the topic of Catwoman, that Garry Brown stuff is looking pretty damned good.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> It would be nice if they allowed Selina to grow her hair out. So sick of the short hair!





> She does look good with long hair





> Not too keen on the generic mafia suit but at least it's better than that stupid black leather getup she's been sporting these past few years.  Also, he short hair hasn't look that good since Cooke last drew her.


Catwoman needs a makeover. And yes to the long hair. Sorry, but she looks terrible in these panels. Like a wet cat.

----------


## heyevaxx

> I've never minded the short hair, but I do miss the long dark locks she had during the Jim Balent days.
> And speaking of Selina with long hair, which story does she appear like this in? I love it!!


Here's this image by Tim Sale from When In Rome in glorious, digital hi-def:
*Carwoman.When.In.Rome.TPB.p012-Tim.Sale.jpg 1920x2951*
http://s30.postimg.org/6fepd8m73/Car...2_Tim_Sale.jpg

----------


## catbatfan

I sure hope When in Rome gets an Absolute Edition. The Long Halloween and Dark Victory have Absolute editions, and I think even Haunted Knight got one. Come onnnnnnn, Catwoman!!!

----------


## Punisher007

I prefer her with short hair.  It makes her stand out more, it looks really good on her, and I just like women with short hair in general.  We have enough female CBM's with long hair already, it's generic.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> I prefer her with short hair.  It makes her stand out more, it looks really good on her, and I just like women with short hair in general.  We have enough female CBM's with long hair already, it's generic.


Short hair can be a good look but Selina's wild and wavy hair fir her free-spirited personality more and that's why I like it.

----------


## catbatfan

Her short hair in Year One was so hideous, though. She was basically rocking the Sigourney Weaver look from Alien3.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Really?  I loved that look on her. It had a very "Don't screw with me" vibe going on.

----------


## heyevaxx

Selina Kyle is my favorite comic character and she's aces with both short and long hair.

But I prefer short. It's distinctive, practical and fits her personality more IMO. Key to Selina is playing by *her* rules and not trying to impress others. She does what she wants and if she wants long, short, no hair, so be it. I think she'd go with short. Ask any woman with a mane like dew and they'll tell you it takes a lot of time and product to keep it like that. Even if the hair is naturally full bodied, it's a lot of work to shape it. I know, I know, this is comics and not real life but I can't help but think short would be so much more practical. Sort of like flats versus heels for female superhero shoes. High heel boots are just nuts.

Also, as good as some of Jim Balent's huge black manes look, they're so implausible both for Selina wearing her hair like that as an acrobat/fighter and also for there always needing to be a wind machine just out of frame so the mane flows dramatically. I guess Jim B's hair goes along with his in-human figure for Selina: the world's greatest acrobat would never have a huge chest like he gave her. The New 52 Selina is frequently super top heavy. At least Adam Hughes drew everything else really well despite over endowing Selina. But I digress...

Here's a nice bit of art about Selina's hair. She just gave up Helena for adoption and someone blew up her apartment. She's staying at a safe house where she decides on a change of course. From Catwoman v3 #74:

----------


## catbatfan

> Really?  I loved that look on her. It had a very "Don't screw with me" vibe going on.


It makes her look unattractive and man-ish.

----------


## Stormcrow

While the shorter hair is definitely practical for a thief, I love Selina with long, wild hair. I wish they'd given her a makeover for her new role as kingpin. She doesn't _need_ the short hair anymore, and she's had that look forever now. Tim Sale's depiction is probably my favorite, she looks so classy and fun yet dangerous.






> I sure hope When in Rome gets an Absolute Edition. The Long Halloween and Dark Victory have Absolute editions, and I think even Haunted Knight got one. Come onnnnnnn, Catwoman!!!


It's going to be included in the Haunted Knight Absolute!

----------


## Michael24

> Here's this image by Tim Sale from When In Rome in glorious, digital hi-def:
> *Carwoman.When.In.Rome.TPB.p012-Tim.Sale.jpg 1920x2951*
> http://s30.postimg.org/6fepd8m73/Car...2_Tim_Sale.jpg


Damn! Then I really need to check out *When In Rome* already. That's one gorgeous Selina!

Couple images I found last night:

----------


## catbatfan

> While the shorter hair is definitely practical for a thief, I love Selina with long, wild hair. I wish they'd given her a makeover for her new role as kingpin. She doesn't _need_ the short hair anymore, and she's had that look forever now. Tim Sale's depiction is probably my favorite, she looks so classy and fun yet dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?!?! I had no idea!! Now I need to buy it!!!!!
> 
> 
> It's going to be included in the Haunted Knight Absolute!



Seriously?!?! I had no idea!! Now I need to buy it!!!!!

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Seriously?!?! I had no idea!! Now I need to buy it!!!!!


If there's one way to get me to shell out money on a DC product, it would be Tim Sale drawing Catwoman. 

Re her short hair, my problem is that not all artists can pull it off and still keep her attractive. I can count on one hand the artists who can make her look good in short hair -- Jim Lee, Adam Hughes, Yanick Paquette and Tony Daniel. The rest, ugh, especially that ugly Lisa Rinna look where her hair sticks out in all directions.

I don't know why people are so obsessed with practicality for Catwoman. To me, that's more Babs than Selina. 

Julie Newmar/Michelle Pfeiffer/Anne Hathaway -- those are my Catwomen, nothing about them screams "I'm practical."

Also, are we saying that 99% of the DCU women are impractical for having long hair?

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Michael24

LOL! That is awesome!  :Smile:

----------


## dodoriazarbon

I really hope the new team/direction for Catwoman is good - I've been unable to read of my favourite characters since Nocenti came on board. Adore the Jae Lee covers so far.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Interview with the new writer. DC doesn't seem to be doing much promotion for this book. Excerpts and link:

https://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfi...=IN08181406250





> DF: There is talk about some of the changes you will bring to the book. Can you discuss some of those?   
> 
> Genevieve Valentine: Good question! Let's see if I can do it without a ton of spoilers.
> 
> The Selina we meet at the beginning of my run has been occupying a position that affects hundreds, maybe thousands of lives, which has put her in a state of hypervigilance; some of the dark humor is still there, but she's living in an uncanny valley between the biggest long con of her life and the potential for a new beginning, and both options keep her on her guard. That said, she's also facing a couple of new characters who challenge her, and with whom she finds a surprising honesty. And after everything that's happened recently with Batman, their dynamic at the start of this arc is at something of an impasse—a sexy, sexy impasse.
> 
> But of course, for something as collaborative as comics, the look of the book carries its own immense weight in the story—everything I've seen from Garry Brown and Jae Lee has been just gorgeous, and that's definitely shaped the mood and the movement of the story.
> 
> DF: Selina Kyle has always played power games with herself, been her own worst enemy. How will this new direction reflect that aspect of her character? Unlike most women in comics, especially villains, Catwoman has always appreciated her independence, her freedom. One thing that drives her to get in a cat suit some nights is simply that she can. How will this new responsibility affect that?
> ...

----------


## Michael24

Did anybody ever play this for the Game Boy Color?



It was released in 1999, but I never even knew it existed until about a week ago. I snagged a copy off Amazon Marketplace for about $7, including shipping. It's not the worst game I've played, although some actions can be a little frustrating. Sometimes you'll try to jump onto a platform, but you keep bumping your head on the one above, which causes you to miss and fall, or you go to strike an enemy, but you've stopped too short and your punch/kick doesn't reach them, during which they have time to shoot you. ARGH!

But it's got some nice little details that I'm surprised they even bothered to include, such as being able to hug the walls in order to avoid detection, back flip from a crouching position, and when you jump to a platform that's directly overhead, Selina will grab the edge and do a neat little flip in order to get herself up there.

Overall, not a great game, but I like having some fun, simple titles for my Game Boy Advance to just mess around with when I'm bored.

----------


## catbatfan

I think I remember the game, but I didn't have a Game Boy Color and never had the chance to play it. I'm a little bit jealous right now!

----------


## dodoriazarbon

I still have the game and bought it when it was released... It's pretty damn hard - because it's very awkward as you say. Years later I would look up the level codes and skip on to see what the rest of the game was like (the same!).

----------


## Michael24

By any chance, do you still have those codes? There's not much about the game online in terms of cheats or anything. I found a code for the final level, but that's it.

My copy was just the cartridge and no manual, so I also can't figure out how to use the whip to swing from things like I've seen in some Youtube videos.

----------


## catbatfan

DC has released a list of collected editions for 2015 and there's still no sign of a 75th Anniversary Celebration hardcover for Catwoman. We need to write, Facebook, Tweet DC and let them know we want one!!!

----------


## BatGlamorous

I'm also disappointed that we don't seem to be getting a Catwoman 75th collection. What would everyone want in it if it did happen?

Batman #1, #460-461
'Tec #569-570, #612
Catwoman Defiant (mini-series, four issues)
Catwoman (1993) #6-7 (Knightfall tie-ins)
Trail of The Catwoman ('Tec #759-762)
Selina revealing her identity to Bruce (forget which issue of Hush that was  :Confused: )
Catwoman (2011) #1

...is a pretty cohesive list I think. Unfortunately, my knowledge of older appearances isn't that great so I wouldn't know what to fill in there.

----------


## catbatfan

Definitely not Trail of the Catwoman or the Knightfall tie-ins, as they have already been collected recently.

Catwoman: Defiant was a one-shot. Are you thinking of the Her Sister's Keeper miniseries? It was four issues.

Batman #1, Batman #404, Catwoman #0 (1994), Catwoman #1 (1993), Catwoman #1 (2001), Catwoman #1 (2011), Catwoman: When in Rome #1, Catwoman: Defiant, Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper #1, The Batman Adventures #2....that's just for starters.

----------


## catbatfan

So after 23 months, today saw the release of Ann Nocenti's final issue of Catwoman. Are celebrations in order? ;-)

I imagine supporting characters like Alice Tesla, Detectives Alvarez and Keyes, and Trip Winter will disappear from the book going forward, but I hope they find a way to keep Gwen around. Selina could use at least one friend.

Or maybe it's time to introduce the New 52 version of Holly.

----------


## Punisher007

Yeah, I'd like to see Holly back as well.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> So after 23 months, today saw the release of Ann Nocenti's final issue of Catwoman. Are celebrations in order? ;-)
> 
> I imagine supporting characters like Alice Tesla, Detectives Alvarez and Keyes, and Trip Winter will disappear from the book going forward, but I hope they find a way to keep Gwen around. Selina could use at least one friend.
> 
> Or maybe it's time to introduce the New 52 version of Holly.


I haven't been keeping up because Nocenti, but didn't Gwen sell Catwoman out to the Joker? Does Selina even know she can't/shouldn't trust Gwen?  :Confused: 


Also, I would really love for a writer to actually discuss Selina's brother.

----------


## catbatfan

> I haven't been keeping up because Nocenti, but didn't Gwen sell Catwoman out to the Joker? Does Selina even know she can't/shouldn't trust Gwen? 
> 
> 
> Also, I would really love for a writer to actually discuss Selina's brother.


You mean Karl Kyle, aka Cat-Man?

No, Gwen sold Selina out to Penguin, but they made amends.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

That's really dumb. I guess the fact that Gwen killed Spark was glossed over? Whatever.

Yes, Karl! Although I don't know if that's his new 52 name lol. I waited years for DC to wipe away that failure of a sibling Maggie Kyle and reintroduce Karl into the fold. Sadly, they still seem to be dragging their feet on Selina's family background.

----------


## catbatfan

I hated Maggie Kyle, mostly because I hated Her Sister's Keeper and the trashy hooker origin. Maggie's last few appearances in Gotham City Sirens were pretty cool, though. She was a crazy superpowered nun called Sister Zero.

I'm not sure the truth about Spark was ever revealed.

----------


## heyevaxx

@catbatfan
Celebrations indeed!  :Smile:  So happy that Nocenti is leaving Catwoman. She did a really poor job at capturing Selina Kyle, almost as bad as Bronwyn Carlton who completely wrecked 13 issues at the end of the purple suit run. Nocenti did 18 issues and that following Winick's so-so (I didn't like them) effort has made for a painful Nu52 Catwoman title. So thrilled for Valentine coming on, here's to hoping she recaptures the Selina we know and love from the good issues of the 90s and 00s.

I miss Holly, she was Selina's best friend, roommate, confidant, ward and Catwoman stand in while Selina was pregnant and a new mom. Brubaker wrote their relationship so well.

I'd be thrilled if the who Nu52 cast of characters from the Nu52 title were discarded with just Selina kept (of course!). Let's move on to an all new, better Catwoman.

Selina's brother, Cat-Man, would be cool to have back. Maybe they can weave him back in now that we're starting to see Selina's family unfold in Eternal.

I understand and respect that lots of readers didn't like Sister's Keeper with Selina being a sex worker and her sister being a nun. But I never had any issue with it and thought it was realistic and made Selina all the more sympathetic. Selina was a teenage, orphan, runaway who's very attractive with no support in a crime ridden city like Gotham. While not every young person like that will end up in the sex trade, many, many do. Plus, the depiction of violence young sex workers experience and the psychological manipulation by their pimps also added to the realism. Her savage beating from her pimp coupled with his threatening Maggie were good explanations for why Selina got trained by Ted Grant (Wildcat). Now she can defend herself and her loved ones. Lastly, escaping the sex trade along with her father's abuse of her mother (per-52 origin) nicely explains her fierce independence and hot/cold attitude with Batman. Anyway, I totally get many don't like the Sister's Keeper mini but I definitely liked it.

Ok, here's to the new Catwoman creative team!!!

*Catwoman #36*
[IMG]http://***********/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Catwoman-36.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

I always thought the prostitution angle always made a plausible origin for a poor kid who lived on the wrong side of Gotham with no real future. I hate the Sister's Keeper mini tho. It was so offensive to sex workers and to the character of Selina.  Even Frank Miller's prostitution origin more respectful than the Sister's Keeper mess.

----------


## catbatfan

Catwoman is supposed to be glamourous. I thought the hooker thing was trashy and made Selina look bad. Very, very sleezy. Thankfully her New 52 origin maintained the orphan/street kid angle but dropped the prostitution part.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> Catwoman is supposed to be glamourous. I thought the hooker thing was trashy and made Selina look bad. Very, very sleezy. Thankfully her New 52 origin maintained the orphan/street kid angle but dropped the prostitution part.


I don't believe being a prostitute automatically means that someone is trashy, sleazy, or a bad person. And it certainly doesn't mean that Selina could never be glamorous.

The prostitute origin always felt more plausible and more grounded in reality than whatever weird origin housewife, Flight attendant with amnesia who randomly decided to become a world class thief and jump from rooftops with a giant panther sidekick origin that they had for her prior to Batman Year One. 


Actually, a few weeks back I found this really great article about the sex worker origin for Catwoman. http://capesandwhips.com/so-you-want...rker-catwoman/  It shows how the origin was handled through the years and how it helped to shape Catwoman as a character and not destroy her.

----------


## catbatfan

Her origin from Catwoman #0 (1994) is the best, as it depicts her as an orphaned street kid who steals to survive. The New 52 goes with that, too. And I like the Batman Returns origin best of all, so it was fun to see parts of it make its way into Catwoman #0 (2012). The hooker origin makes Selina damaged goods by the time she finally becomes Catwoman. I hate it and I am forever thankful that's not her origin anymore.

----------


## catbatfan

In other Catwoman news, Selina appeared in Batman/Superman #13 today in what appears to be a 3-issue arc. She was beautifully drawn by Jae Lee, the new cover artist for her series. If you're a fan of Catwoman/Superman interaction, you might want to check this out. I've never read B/S till today, and I am pleased to report it's very new-reader friendly.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> Her origin from Catwoman #0 (1994) is the best, as it depicts her as an orphaned street kid who steals to survive. The New 52 goes with that, too. And I like the Batman Returns origin best of all, so it was fun to see parts of it make its way into Catwoman #0 (2012). The hooker origin makes Selina damaged goods by the time she finally becomes Catwoman. I hate it and I am forever thankful that's not her origin anymore.


In Catwoman #0 she was still a canon prostitute/sex worker. It shows how she became an orphan, her sex worker stuff, and finally what led to her becoming catwoman (Batman Year One re-tread).   Catwoman Annual #2/Catwoman Year One shows her martial arts training inbetween the orphanage and  sex worker stuff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, the new B/S arc finally started up after being delayed 3 months in a row, lol.  It was too quick of a read but I liked the Selina/Clark interactions. Can't wait to see what's going to happen next.

----------


## catbatfan

> In Catwoman #0 she was still a canon prostitute/sex worker. It shows how she became an orphan, her sex worker stuff, and finally what led to her becoming catwoman (Batman Year One re-tread).   Catwoman Annual #2/Catwoman Year One shows her martial arts training inbetween the orphanage and  sex worker stuff.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, Catwoman #0 retcons the hooker origin, as does Catwoman Year One. Year One goes into more depth: Selina was only posing as a hooker to hide out from the police and to extract info from johns for her heists.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> No, Catwoman #0 retcons the hooker origin, as does Catwoman Year One. Year One goes into more depth: Selina was only posing as a hooker to hide out from the police and to extract info from johns for her heists.


Nope. It doesn't actually.  It still has her as a sex worker but they added in that she also steals from her clients. It's even referenced in Selina's Big Score and towards the end of the first solo. 

I think it's actually mentioned in that link I posted as well. 


Selina's sex worker origin was pretty much kept the same (somethings were added in through flashbacks) and canon until the reboot.

----------


## catbatfan

> Nope. It doesn't actually.  It still has her as a sex worker but they added in that she also steals from her clients. It's even referenced in Selina's Big Score and towards the end of the first solo. 
> 
> I think it's actually mentioned in that link I posted as well. 
> 
> 
> Selina's sex worker origin was pretty much kept the same (somethings were added in through flashbacks) and canon until the reboot.


No, Catwoman Year One completely retcons the hooker origin. That was the whole point of the story, to fix Selina's origin so it wasn't trashy. They even redraw specific panels from Batman Year One to explain the changes. Her Sister's Keeper and the hooker elements of Selina's origin were out of continuity under Brubaker decided to bring back those elements.

I'm surprised that I even have to defend this. It gives me the creeps that there are fans of the hooker origin!

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

First of all, you don't have to be so completely rude. Some readers don't mind the origin because they know being involved in prostitution doesn't automatically mean that someone is a bad person, trashy, a skank, whatever negative, prejudice thing one might say. 


 The CW Year One and #0 issues never really retcon anything about her being a sex worker. In fact she actually does mention, in her internal dialogue, being a sex worker. 

From the annual:




Those redrawn pages were to show Selina's POV during Batman Year One but not to change her origin. Selina having been a sex worker has never harmed her character and it has never taken away from the fact that she can rub noses with the best of Gotham when she wants to.

----------


## heyevaxx

@teddyeatsyourface
"I don't believe being a prostitute automatically means that someone is trashy, sleazy, or a bad person."
+1
I don't think being a sex worker is the preferred choice for most, many of whom are directly or indirectly forced into the business.  Given an option that pays about the same most would opt out I think.

@catbatfan
I respect that you don't like the many, many references to Selina having been a sex worker. I can see how this would tweak some readers.

But, it is undoubtedly canon for Batman Year One to the end of her run before Nu52.

Here are two links that cover this topic in exacting detail:
1) https://dr-von-fangirl.livejournal.com/42641.html >> I've read this a couple of times, loads of scans with lots of analysis by a Catwoman fanatic (and a woman).

2) http://capesandwhips.com/so-you-want...rker-catwoman/ >> I've only skimmed this but it looks really detailed like dr von fangirl's mega-origin article.

@teddyeatsyourface, @catbatfan
We might have to agree to disagree on the Selina/sex worker thing.

Let's focus on other Catwoman stuff that we all love.

----------


## heyevaxx

@teddyeatsyourface
While Sister's Keeper wasn't a great comic by today's standards (or the 00s, or the 90s) I found it was a lot more interesting, even compelling, compared to the goofy early mid 80s stuff and much of the 70s Catwoman.

Thanks for the http://capesandwhips.com/so-you-want...rker-catwoman/ link! I hadn't read this despite always searching for good Catwoman essays.

Just in case anyone hasn't seen this, there's an incredible pre-52 origin article for Catwoman:
*The COMPLETE definitive Catwoman origin by dr_von_fangirl*
https://dr-von-fangirl.livejournal.com/42641.html

To really be complete, there are 2 comics that need to be added to dr_von_fangirl's great essay:
Catwoman volume2 #10 1994-05: Circus Germanicus story with Brendan and Tamsyn
Catwoman volume2 #75 1999-12: Extended carnival flashback with Del Halperm

All of Catwoman's various backstory issues between Batman Year One and the end of Gotham City Sirens can be mostly harmonized. The key events are:

* Her alcoholic father beats her mom, her mother commits suicide, her father is completely despondent and dies of over consumption.

* Selina ends up in an orphanage where she doesn't fit in and is almost murdered by the head mistress. Her mom always said she was unnaturally coordinated and Selina really honed her acrobatics at the orphanage. She confronts the villain with evidence of her corruption and escapes.

* She ends up at a Carnival trying to pick a pocket but gets caught. A kindly carny takes her in and Selina learns lots of "carnival" stuff but with Selina at his deathbed for 2 days he dies.

* Selina's back in Gotham, a tough street kid but without any money, friends, support or fighting skills.

* Batman Year One/Sister's Keeper: In her late teen years, she's a sex worker with an even younger roommate/ward, Holly. She learns basic hand to hand from Ted Grant and how to use a whip. She gives Carmine Falcone his famous scars and she meets Batman.

* Catwoman Year One 1995-07: Though a skilled acrobatic, B&E thief and brawler, Selina wasn't fully Catwoman yet. She gets attacked by Hellhound and finds her way to the dojo he attends. After 1 year, Selina is the top student and close the Armless Master (later killed by Lady Shiva).

* Voila! We have a Catwoman!  :Smile:

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

The site has another pretty interesting  essay on Catwoman (about her family life & race) http://capesandwhips.com/reading-com...-when-in-rome/

----------


## catbatfan

> First of all, you don't have to be so completely rude. Some readers don't mind the origin because they know being involved in prostitution doesn't automatically mean that someone is a bad person, trashy, a skank, whatever negative, prejudice thing one might say. 
> 
> 
>  The CW Year One and #0 issues never really retcon anything about her being a sex worker. In fact she actually does mention, in her internal dialogue, being a sex worker. 
> 
> From the annual:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These pages prove my point and make it clear that Selina is pretending to be one of Stan's whores.

----------


## catbatfan

> But, it is undoubtedly canon for Batman Year One to the end of her run before Nu52.


Wrong. Catwoman's hooker origin is out of continuity for all of the 1990s up until Ed Brubaker takes over in 2001 and decides Her Sister's Keeper is canon again. The earliest issues of the 90s Catwoman series make it clear that she does not have a sister at all. In fact, Maggie is referenced and Selina has no idea who she is (#5).

We are never going to agree on this. It actually makes me sick that you people are championing the hooker origin. Being a hooker is never, ever a good thing, and I cannot believe you people would support such a thing.

----------


## heyevaxx

@catbatfan
I definitely agree we're never going to agree on this.

Just for the record, I'm not "championing" Selina's pre-52 origin nor do I "support" it. I simply interpret the stories differently than you do.

Please accept my apologies for this escalating. I certainly don't want anyone to feel sick over my comments here. I value your Catwoman posts and I think you've also posted a bunch about my number 2 fave, Cass Cain.

Ok, let's get back back to appreciating Gotham's upcoming kingpin and her soon to be awesome self title with it's new creative team!  :Smile:

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> We are never going to agree on this. It actually makes me sick that you people are championing the hooker origin. Being a hooker is never, ever a good thing, and I cannot believe you people would support such a thing.





-------------------------------------------------------

*Batman Eternal #23 Cover*

----------


## heyevaxx

Re: Batman Eternal #23 Cover
Oh lord, please zip up that suit and ditch the heels! Ugh.

But, I'm thrilled for her role in Eternal. I can wait to see how Selina climbs to the top.

And does she kill or order killings? It's pretty hard to be a non-lethal crime lord. It'll be interesting to see if she retains her anti-hero, shades of gray quality while running all Gotham organized crime.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

So glad when they finally get Selina out of that costume. It has been a plague ever since Cooke left the catwoman book.


As for how Catwoman will deal with people now that she's Cat-pin of Gotham. . . .



https://twitter.com/GarryBoom/status/495331823161851904


It seems she's still rocking the whip.

----------


## phonogram12

Ugh, just when I forgot about what an eyesore Jim Balent's artwork was.

...ugh.

----------


## catbatfan

> Ugh, just when I forgot about what an eyesore Jim Balent's artwork was.
> 
> ...ugh.


Jim Balent is one of the best artists to ever draw Catwoman. I miss him and wish he was still on the series.

----------


## heyevaxx

@teddyeatsyourface
Great pic! I can't wait to see the new artist. I like Selina in a business suite and I think the whip is a nice and funny touch. Who hasn't had a boss that metaphorically whipped her workers! Now Gotham will have the real deal. I do like her black suit as long as it's zipped up. Some of the Nu52 pics of her cleavage are nuts; I think they're from Justice League.

@phonogram12
I liked most of Balent except (a big except) some of his faces and all of his unnaturally busty figures he drew for Selina. A lot of his Selina faces had the same smile, again and again and again... And his over well-endowing Selina, ugh! She not Power Girl, an alien! A real human female would never be close to that stacked and be a great (best?) acrobat. I did like Balent's action scenes where he frequently drew lots of Catwoman silhouettes to show her movement.

----------


## heyevaxx

Ok, who's the evilest pre-52 Catwoman villain/advisory? I think it's a 2 villain battle ...

In this corner, the man with the mask, the torture/crime-lord combo meal deal, it's Baaaa-laaaack Maaaasskkkk!!!

If the other corner, he's not a mummy wearing a trench coat, he's a doctor who's first rule is "Do LOTS Of Harm", it's (say it whispery) Huuuusshhhhhh.....

I've got my opinions (and scans!) but I wonder what you all think. Also, is there a pre-52 baddie I'm missing who should be considered?

----------


## catbatfan

> I've got my opinions (and scans!) but I wonder what you all think. Also, is there a pre-52 baddie I'm missing who should be considered?


Hellhound.

----------


## Ticklefist

Oh boy. Dr Von Fangirl and Hellhound. 

Things I'd shuffled off into my brain's quarantine folder.

----------


## catbatfan

Hellhound was a great villain for Selina. He had a genuine rivalry with her, plus he was a real physical threat.

Who is "Dr Von Fangirl"?

----------


## heyevaxx

> Who is "Dr Von Fangirl"?


Previous page on this thread: http://community.comicbookresources....l=1#post455609

1) https://dr-von-fangirl.livejournal.com/42641.html >> I've read this a couple of times, loads of scans with lots of analysis by a Catwoman fanatic (and a woman).

and

Previous page on this thread: http://community.comicbookresources....l=1#post455620

Just in case anyone hasn't seen this, there's an incredible pre-52 origin article for Catwoman:
The COMPLETE definitive Catwoman origin by dr_von_fangirl
https://dr-von-fangirl.livejournal.com/42641.html

To really be complete, there are 2 comics that need to be added to dr_von_fangirl's great essay:
Catwoman volume2 #10 1994-05: Circus Germanicus story with Brendan and Tamsyn
Catwoman volume2 #75 1999-12: Extended carnival flashback with Del Halperm

----------


## catbatfan

She got Catwoman's origin wrong, though. Yes, Catwoman was a hooker in 1986 when Frank Miller tweaked her origin for Batman Year One, but it was retconned out of continuity for all of the 90s until Brubaker brought it back in 2001 (or rather, in the comic book world, Superboy Prime's cosmic wall punching brought it back into continuity). As far as I'm concerned, Selina's hooker origin was wiped out by Infinite Crisis/New Earth because it was never referred to again after that.

----------


## phonogram12

> Jim Balent is one of the best artists to ever draw Catwoman. I miss him and wish he was still on the series.


Yeah, I have to disagree on every point here.

----------


## phonogram12

> @phonogram12
> A lot of his Selina faces had the same smile, again and again and again... And his over well-endowing Selina, ugh! She not Power Girl, an alien! A real human female would never be close to that stacked and be a great (best?) acrobat.


I agree completely and are the reasons I hated him the most.

----------


## Michael24

Jim Balent's run was great. My favorite Catwoman artist.

As for this upcoming new direction, I'm not sold on it. Selina as a crime kingpin? Yeah, I'm not crazy about that idea.

----------


## catbatfan

> Yeah, I have to disagree on every point here.


I'm sorry about that. Jim Balent drew a fun, happy, vibrant Selina with fantastic facial expressions. He also drew dynamic images of Selina in motion, showing off her acrobatic abilities and Olympic-level gymnast skills. His Batman was always a treat, too. Hands down my favourite Catwoman artist of all time.

----------


## phonogram12

> I'm sorry about that. Jim Balent drew a fun, happy, vibrant Selina with fantastic facial expressions. He also drew dynamic images of Selina in motion, showing off her acrobatic abilities and Olympic-level gymnast skills. His Batman was always a treat, too. Hands down my favourite Catwoman artist of all time.


He drew her like a porn star who wore nothing but purple body paint and cat ears.

----------


## ABH

This is the part where I remind you guys that this is an Appreciation thread, so instead of bickering back and forth, "appreciate" the Catwoman that _YOU_ like.


------

Not a huge fan of the Returns design, but I like this piece: 



Another one:



And here's the Cat with the Bat:

----------


## catbatfan

> 


Thanks for posting this! I had this issue of Wizard but haven't seen it in years. This is a fantastic drawing of Selina in her quintessential catsuit. She looks gorgeous.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Thanks for posting this! I had this issue of Wizard but haven't seen it in years. This is a fantastic drawing of Selina in her quintessential catsuit. She looks gorgeous.


I concur. I thought Balent drew a very pretty Selina in General. Sure he wasn't perfect (odd lookingside views), but her facial expressions were a hoot. She was written much more confident and carefree too so it matches the art

Much better than her current look and personality.

----------


## phonogram12

darwyn art 003.jpg

By far, my favorite version of Selina. God, Darwyn Cooke's amazing...

I think my favorite parts here are 'sexy NOT sleazy,' 'style NOT fashion,' and 'no f-me pumps!'

Oh what a great time in comics it was...

----------


## phonogram12

> Much better than her current look and personality.


I agree. The Cooke/Brubaker years previous were a lot better.  :Big Grin:

----------


## phonogram12

> Another one:


I like this one, too. This whole look is amazing. The hair, the goggles, the boots, the zipup top, everything!  :Big Grin:

----------


## catbatfan

> I concur. I thought Balent drew a very pretty Selina in General. Sure he wasn't perfect (odd lookingside views), but her facial expressions were a hoot. She was written much more confident and carefree too so it matches the art
> 
> Much better than her current look and personality.


Mmhmm. Plus she had nice, long, flowing locks. When I think of Catwoman, it's Jim Balent's version that comes to mind. I miss the days when Catwoman/Selina used to be FUN!!!

----------


## phonogram12

Check out the killer smile on Selina here!

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Mmhmm. Plus she had nice, long, flowing locks. When I think of Catwoman, it's Jim Balent's version that comes to mind. I miss the days when Catwoman/Selina used to be FUN!!!


And smart. And not a loser who keeps sabotaging herself. 




> Check out the killer smile on Selina here!


Oh look! It's Michael Phelps with boobs!

----------


## Ticklefist

Check the comics Catwoman was competing against in the not-so-subtle 90s. Anybody would have drawn her like Balent did.

Or they'd just be out of a job.

----------


## catbatfan

> And smart. And not a loser who keeps sabotaging herself. 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look! It's Michael Phelps with boobs!


I was so disappointed when I first saw Darwyn Cooke's art for Catwoman, including the horrible, ugly, bulky costume and the hideous goggles. I'm not a fan of his cartoony style, and he made Selina look butch and ugly, especially with her short hair. The 90s Catwoman, written by Jo Duffy, Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, etc. was intelligent, fun and not bogged down by unnecessary angst and "noir". It's too bad the Jim Balent era hasn't been collected. I would love to re-read it. Okay, I own the entire run of that series plus all of the Annuals, specials, one-shots, etc., but I would like to have some nice collected editions up on my bookshelf!

----------


## CapeandCowl

Catwoman remains the single best villian to get under Batman's skin that is a female and although I also like Poison Ivy (mainly from TAS and B & R when I was younger) catwoman is the villian for me. Not even a villian so much as a good deep down person with bad luck on her side.

----------


## godisawesome

I always thought a good joking story for Batman's early years would be to reveal that Catwoman intentionally committed crimes the same nights she knew Batman would fight Poison Ivy since she figured that even of he defeated the plant lady quick enough to go after her, he'd still have enough pheromone and hormone troubles from her that Catwoman would have an easier time flirting with him. :Wink:

----------


## phonogram12

Just reread Selina's Big Score the other night. An absolutely _amazing_ story with equally fantastic artwork to boot. A superb crime story that really gives depth to the character.  :Big Grin:

----------


## phonogram12

Love this one:

noto_catwoman_darwyn.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

This is cool. TV and Movie Catwomen...

----------


## Michael24

That is awesome! I love Jeff Victor's "Evolution" series.

I'm curious, though, why the 2011 Catwoman is the purple-and-green one costume. I thought that was a much older one.

----------


## billee0918

> That is awesome! I love Jeff Victor's "Evolution" series.
> 
> I'm curious, though, why the 2011 Catwoman is the purple-and-green one costume. I thought that was a much older one.


I think that was the look in The Brave & Bold animated series. Wasnt there another look from the Filmation days, something orangey with a lion emblem IIRC?

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> This is cool. TV and Movie Catwomen...


Left out The Batman's Catwoman, the one with those big ears.



Not the best, but you'd think more people would prefer to remember that over the 2004 entry...

----------


## phonogram12

> Left out The Batman's Catwoman, the one with those big ears.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the best, but you'd think more people would prefer to remember that over the 2004 entry...


Love them goggles!

----------


## PaolaBarioni

Hi guys! I wonder if the chronology of the New 52, Selina has discovered the identity of Batman. If you have discovered, can you tell me? 

And I also saw a comic of Batman he comes out with Selina for an opera there and Harley Quinn hurt and a woman cares for her. Can you tell me what is HQ? 

Thanks  :Big Grin:

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> Hi guys! I wonder if the chronology of the New 52, Selina has discovered the identity of Batman. If you have discovered, can you tell me? 
> 
> And I also saw a comic of Batman he comes out with Selina for an opera there and Harley Quinn hurt and a woman cares for her. Can you tell me what is HQ? 
> 
> Thanks


Selina doesn't know that Bruce is Batman in the current continuity. The writers may have her find out during Batman Eternal but so far she doesn't know his real identity. 

As, for your second question. The book you're looking for is called "Hush"  by Jeff Loeb & Jim Lee. Terrible story but it's filled with a lot of good batcat scenes so there's that.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> but it's filled with a lot of good batcat scenes so there's that.


Yep especially the ending.

----------


## Carmen_Rider

Hmm, I thought I saw a deviantart page with more costume evolutions. I'll look for it. Meanwhile, I like Jim Balent's rendition of her.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Left out The Batman's Catwoman, the one with those big ears.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the best, but you'd think more people would prefer to remember that over the 2004 entry...


I definitely would.

----------


## Punisher007

She could just be wearing body paint and it'd STILL be better than the 2004 costume.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Left out The Batman's Catwoman, the one with those big ears.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the best, but you'd think more people would prefer to remember that over the 2004 entry...


Yup, he left out 3: The Batman's Catwoman, the 70's animated one with the yellow/orange costume billeee mentioned and the one from the Birds of Prey TV show.

----------


## Michael24

Well, *Gotham* is proving surprisingly disappointing, IMO, but among a couple things I've been enjoying what (little) we've seen of Camren as Selena so far. Hopefully we'll get to see more of her in action before too long.

----------


## heyevaxx

Michael24, while I'm really enjoying Gotham, *I totally agree with you on Camren*, she's been great. 

For me, I really enjoy all the cast and their performances but the 3 new (to me) actors, Camren, Robin and Cory have been excellent. Also, Jada has been surprisingly good considering I really didn't like her in Matrix 2/3 (which was probably from the writing/directing). But Camren has really out shined the rest for me, though I'm super biased since Catwoman is my fave comic character.

Her body language is perfect, her dancing/distance running/working out really shines when she's moving. In the opener, her confident walk toward her first victim was just right. They don't let her do many stunts but she says she wants to do more. Camren took some parkor classes so it would be nice to see her let loose with some roof running but I'm sure the show producers don't want to imperil a title credit performer and an underage one at that.

Camren's done well with facial expressions like her little smile after stealing the milk and the bunch of great looks she gave in episode 2 during her smack down of the poor social worker. She has really good chemistry with Gordon, I can't wait to see her meet and talk with Bruce.

Considering she had almost no acting experience before, her line reads have been excellent. She has a naturally high voice but through coaching, effort, directing or whatever she's done a good job speaking with a decent range. Pfeiffer's deep voice was from being older, a huge smoker (she's quit in recent years) and from the vaccuum sealed cat suit. Camren's voice might not change much but at 15 she's still growing so who knows. 

A little trivia on Camren. There have been 2 print interviews now since episode 2 where she goes on record as liking Michelle Pfeiffer as her fave Catwoman. While I totally agree, it's interesting that in all the pre-episode 2 interviews she said Julie Newmar again and again. My hunch is the Fox PR folks didn't want to start a Nolan vs Burton fan war and wanted to wait for the show to come out and her performance to be accepted.

Also, after moving to L.A. from Hawaii, she went on 94 acting auditions. 94! Gotham is like a grand slam after 94 strikeouts. That's serious persistence, very impressive for a (at the time) 14 year old.

*http://s30.postimg.org/ryh7v8z29/Got...01_Selina1.png*


*http://s10.postimg.org/oakyzlso9/Got...02_Selina1.png*

----------


## Kapparition

> Selina doesn't know that Bruce is Batman in the current continuity. The writers may have her find out during Batman Eternal but so far she doesn't know his real identity. 
> 
> As, for your second question. The book you're looking for is called "Hush"  by Jeff Loeb & Jim Lee. Terrible story but it's filled with a lot of good batcat scenes so there's that.



I think she found out who he was in Forever Evil. His mask was half torn off!

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> I think she found out who he was in Forever Evil. His mask was half torn off!


Still she did not find out or maybe she does not know who Bruce Wayne is.

----------


## The Conductor

> Still she did not find out or maybe she does not know who Bruce Wayne is.


I would find it somewhat remarkable if Selina Kyle didn't know who Bruce Wayne was...

----------


## Smart

Love the call back to the winnick days of catwoman in eternal today, hope she kicks bones ass next week.

----------


## Vakanai

I've always loved the Catwoman character, great femme fatale, antihero/villain, and love interest. So I liked that (despite that whole dominatrix thing) how she was inspired by Batman in Year One, and while it's outside comics I really like how Gotham had her witness the Wayne murders. Just seems to connect Selina and Bruce that much more.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> I think she found out who he was in Forever Evil. His mask was half torn off!





> Still she did not find out or maybe she does not know who Bruce Wayne is.





> I would find it somewhat remarkable if Selina Kyle didn't know who Bruce Wayne was...


I guess it's remarkable then because as of now she still doesn't know that Bruce Wayne is Batman.

----------


## Punisher007

It's a bad move on DC's part.  NOTHING is gained by her NOT knowing.  Actually, it just makes her look like a clueless idiot if she cannot recognize that it's Bruce freaking Wayne when he's missing half his mask/standing right in front of her.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> It's a bad move on DC's part.  NOTHING is gained by her NOT knowing.  Actually, it just makes her look like a clueless idiot if she cannot recognize that it's Bruce freaking Wayne when he's missing half his mask/standing right in front of her.


I liked that part actually. Luthor knowing Batman's true identity is bad enough. The entire Justice League is COMPROMISED because of this. No need for another enemy to know this vital information that can destroy the Justice League and therefore the entire world. Catwoman is an enemy combatant and she cannot be underestimated like Batman underestimated Luthor.

----------


## Smart

Catwoman did originally work it out in the new 52 after kissing Bruce and batman. It was in the Guillem March pages from an early issue that weren't used, editorial decided to go another way.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

So, Catwoman's turning point in Eternal. I was expecting something a bit more ... weighty. Valentine better deliver otherwise I'm going to think nobody in DC can write this character at all.

----------


## Ticklefist

> So, Catwoman's turning point in Eternal. I was expecting something a bit more ... weighty. Valentine better deliver otherwise I'm going to think nobody in DC can write this character at all.


What issue number is it? I'll have to go scrounge it up somewhere.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> What issue number is it? I'll have to go scrounge it up somewhere.


Eternal 27 & 28. Last week and this week.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## BatGlamorous

I've been rereading some Silver Age Catwoman stories, and man is her original costume underrated.



If Valentine and Brown wanted to, I think they could reinstate it. It's totally something I could see Calabrese!Selena wearing. I'd love a modern interpretation!  :Big Grin:

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I've been rereading some Silver Age Catwoman stories, and man is her original costume underrated.
> 
> 
> 
> If Valentine and Brown wanted to, I think they could reinstate it. It's totally something I could see Calabrese!Selena wearing. I'd love a modern interpretation!


That would be extremely cool if they could work it into her character again somehow.  Even if only to some kind of event.  With a line like "what this old thing...found it in the back of my closet."  Would be awesome!  lol

----------


## oasis1313

> That would be extremely cool if they could work it into her character again somehow.  Even if only to some kind of event.  With a line like "what this old thing...found it in the back of my closet."  Would be awesome!  lol


This is what I've been saying.  Purple slit skirts RULE.

----------


## godisawesome

I could see some dress Catpin wears being based off the old costume.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> This is what I've been saying.  Purple slit skirts RULE.


Purple skirt is my number one favorite.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

This is cool and fun!

image.jpg

http://www.neatorama.com/2014/08/01/...tter&mobile=no

----------


## heyevaxx

This is fantastic, thanks chipsnopotatoes! Here's the blurb and hi-res version from Kordianl's DeviantArt page:

*Judith and Holofernesby Kordianl*
_Traditional Art / Sculpture / Figurative©2014 Kordianl
I made this sculpture ​​for the exhibition "Pop The Bag" organized by the Printemps in Louvre.
Inspired by theme of Judith beheading Holofernes -  classic but forgotten archetype.  I tried to update this, referring to the modern mythology of popculture and the world of comics.
Sculpture is 3 meters height, made in cooperation with van den blocke studio._
www.vandenblocke.pl

----------


## Internet-man

I was a bit skeptical of the idea for the new direction, it just sounded kind of crazy. Crazy enough to make me curious though. 
Really glad I checked it out, that was Awesome. Instantly on my pull list, my favorite first issue from a new writer.

No cat/curiosity jokes please. lol

----------


## Trevel8182



----------


## chipsnopotatoes

^ Episode 9.

Looks like Selina is going to be Bruce's tour guide around Gotham's underbelly 

http://www.gothamsite.com/gotham-epi...t-description/

Episode 10 synopsis
FOX has released a short description for the November 24 episode of Gotham.
It’s called “LoveCraft” and here’s the short write-up with some new spoilers:
Following a misstep, Gordon is reassigned to duty at Arkham Asylum. Meanwhile, Selina (Camren Bicondova) leads a new friend on a perilous journey through Gotham to evade the assassins after her.

I hope they give her a few lines this time instead of just skulking around.

----------


## CatBoy

> DC Comics has been doing theme month variants. October was Monster month, November is LEGO covers, December is Darwyn Cooke month, and January is Flash month. You might be wonder what February will bring us. Harley will be crashing her way onto several of your favorite covers...or at least variants of your favorite comics.Here's the full list and credits:
> 
> 1. ACTION COMICS #39 by Nicola Scott & Danny Miki and Jeremy Cox
> 
> 2. AQUAMAN #39 by Amanda Conner and Paul Mounts
> 
> 3. BATGIRL #39 by Cliff Chiang
> 
> 4. BATMAN #39 by Jill Thompson and CV Painting
> ...


Done. Take my money!

----------


## CatBoy

> Done. Take my money!




I want to see it without the weird filter...

----------


## Michael24

> I hope they give her a few lines this time instead of just skulking around.


Same here, although one of the producers has said Selina's story in the show will grow throughout the season. Hopefully, we're finally getting closer to that now. I like what we've seen so far of Camren as Selina. We just need more of it in larger doses rather than just the scattered one or two little moments here and there.

----------


## Ticklefist

> I want to see it without the weird filter...


Wow. Not even my nostalgia goggles can make that look good.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

That looks nothing like '90s Cats!   :Frown:  Balent should have gone for that look with the curly long hair.

----------


## Michael24

16th century Catwoman, by artist Sacha Goldberger. I like it.  :Smile:

----------


## CatBoy

> That looks nothing like '90s Cats!   Balent should have gone for that look with the curly long hair.


I agree. I wish Balent would have went more the nostalgic route with this cover rather than what he's doing now with the Tarot series... the picture does look better in the right color, though.



Nothing's as good as the Jae Lee covers right now - wish we would have had his take on Selina V. Harley....

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Aww, that adorable tiger-striped cat.

----------


## CatBoy

Speaking of nostalgia... so excited at the announcement of the 90s Catwoman Convergence title!



*CATWOMAN*
*Writer:* Justin Gray
*Artist:* Ron Randall, with color by Gabe Eltaeb
A year under the dome can change anyone, even Catwoman. She's set aside her life of crime to become the protector of Suicide Slum, but when the dome falls she will face her greatest challenge—Kingdom Come Batman.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Speaking of nostalgia... so excited at the announcement of the 90s Catwoman Convergence title!
> 
> 
> 
> *CATWOMAN*
> *Writer:* Justin Gray
> *Artist:* Ron Randall, with color by Gabe Eltaeb
> A year under the dome can change anyone, even Catwoman. She's set aside her life of crime to become the protector of Suicide Slum, but when the dome falls she will face her greatest challenge—Kingdom Come Batman.


I saw! I saw! Now that's more like it! Who is Kingdom Come Batman? Isn't he some old fogey?

----------


## CatBoy

> I saw! I saw! Now that's more like it! Who is Kingdom Come Batman? Isn't he some old fogey?


Yeah, in a superhuman armored suit - but, 90s Catwoman has bested an armored AzBats before... I still remember when she got away from him during Knightfall with him shaking his fist in the air hahah.

I really had fun with Justin Gray on Ame-Comi girls, but it would have been so good if they could've had Jim Balent for the two titles... maybe some covers? He might have not handled New52 Selina very well - but he's the master at 90s Selina.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Yeah, in a superhuman armored suit - but, 90s Catwoman has bested an armored AzBats before... I still remember when she got away from him during Knightfall with him shaking his fist in the air hahah.
> 
> I really had fun with Justin Gray on Ame-Comi girls, but it would have been so good if they could've had Jim Balent for the two titles... maybe some covers? He might have not handled New52 Selina very well - but he's the master at 90s Selina.


Yeah, that would be great. BTW, did you watch last nights Gotham? I swear this Camren girl is so well cast as Selina cuz she can charm the pants off anybody

----------


## CatBoy

> Yeah, that would be great. BTW, did you watch last nights Gotham? I swear this Camren girl is so well cast as Selina cuz she can charm the pants off anybody


I know you're going to think - here he goes again... there's something about the actress I'm still on the fence about. But, I've definitely been enjoying the show for sure. Not big with the Selina/Bruce interactions, because even though I know this is "Elseworlds," it doesn't make sense to me that they would no each other at such a young age. I have been really enjoying the severely dramatic performance of Jada Pinkett as Fish Mooney though, reminds me of Eartha Kitt. I really hope with this new direction in the comics of Selina being the new Kingpin, they go that route on the show and maybe have Fish train her, or maybe possible familial ties with Carmine Falcone question mark?

----------


## Michael24

> Speaking of nostalgia... so excited at the announcement of the 90s Catwoman Convergence title!


Well, well, well. What's this here? I'm not following any current DC titles, so I don't know anything about this whole "Convergence" event that I've seen being talked about recently. Is Selina essentially getting a *Catwoman: Convergence #1* & *#2* tie-in that tells a story about the '90s era Catwoman? If it can be read as a standalone, I may just have to pick it up.

Would have been great if Balent could have drawn it, but any return of the '90s purple suit is welcome in my book.  :Smile: 




> I have been really enjoying the severely dramatic performance of Jada Pinkett as Fish Mooney though, reminds me of Eartha Kitt.


I've actually felt since the first episode that Pinkett has been dreadful and the worst thing about the show. To me, her performance is exceedingly melodramatic, like she thinks she's in a spoof or something. I've been enjoying most of the other performances, but find her extremely grating and horribly miscast.




> BTW, did you watch last nights Gotham? I swear this Camren girl is so well cast as Selina cuz she can charm the pants off anybody


I agree. It was great to finally get nearly a full episode's worth of Selina, and it looks like there will be plenty more of her in next week's episode, too.

----------


## Thirteen

> This is what I've been saying.  Purple slit skirts RULE.


Purple slit skirt Appreciation: Alan Davis edition.  
I love how he uses double slits for a daring culotte effect, rather than a dress.   Purrrrrrfection.

catwoman purple davis 1.jpgcatwoman purple davis2.jpg

catwoman purple davis3.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I know you're going to think - here he goes again... there's something about the actress I'm still on the fence about. But, I've definitely been enjoying the show for sure. Not big with the Selina/Bruce interactions, because even though I know this is "Elseworlds," it doesn't make sense to me that they would no each other at such a young age. I have been really enjoying the severely dramatic performance of Jada Pinkett as Fish Mooney though, reminds me of Eartha Kitt. I really hope with this new direction in the comics of Selina being the new Kingpin, they go that route on the show and maybe have Fish train her, or maybe possible familial ties with Carmine Falcone question mark?


Ha! But she's mini-Michelle! And I thought I was picky. I like her a lot. Lots of sass and charm even though she's had to put up with cheesy dialogue and tiny cameos. The way I think about it, Bruce is never becoming Bats on this show anyway so they can interact all they want. I don't want the showrunners forcing them to grow up too soon though hence I loved the food fight showing them having fun as kids.

Fish is certainly channeling her best Eartha. I can't help but think they invented her because they couldn't feature an adult Catwoman on the show

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Well, well, well. What's this here? I'm not following any current DC titles, so I don't know anything about this whole "Convergence" event that I've seen being talked about recently. Is Selina essentially getting a *Catwoman: Convergence #1* & *#2* tie-in that tells a story about the '90s era Catwoman? If it can be read as a standalone, I may just have to pick it up.
> 
> Would have been great if Balent could have drawn it, but any return of the '90s purple suit is welcome in my book.


I know! Her glory days.





> I agree. It was great to finally get nearly a full episode's worth of Selina, and it looks like there will be plenty more of her in next week's episode, too.


It's fall season finale apparently. I haven't paid much attention to this show with its dribs and drabs of Selina, but I guess I'll tune in next week too.

----------


## Michael24

> Ha! But she's mini-Michelle! And I thought I was picky. I like her a lot. Lots of sass and charm even though she's had to put up with cheesy dialogue and tiny cameos. The way I think about it, Bruce is never becoming Bats on this show anyway so they can interact all they want. I don't want the showrunners forcing them to grow up too soon though hence I loved the food fight showing them having fun as kids.


One of the producers has said that if the show lasts long enough for Bruce Wayne to grow up into an adult, we wouldn't see him don the cap and cowl until the series finale, and the show would close out with that image.




> It's fall season finale apparently. I haven't paid much attention to this show with its dribs and drabs of Selina, but I guess I'll tune in next week too.


Yeah, "fall finale," although I wish the networks would stop with that nonsense. They could easily still air 2-3 more episodes before having a break for Christmas. In any event, I thought the show started off a little rocky, but after about 4-5 episodes, it felt like it was finally finding its groove. Since then, with the exception of Jada Pinkett-Smith, I think it's gotten better and has become pretty entertaining.

----------


## CatBoy

> Ha! But she's mini-Michelle! And I thought I was picky. I like her a lot. Lots of sass and charm even though she's had to put up with cheesy dialogue and tiny cameos. The way I think about it, Bruce is never becoming Bats on this show anyway so they can interact all they want. I don't want the showrunners forcing them to grow up too soon though hence I loved the food fight showing them having fun as kids.
> 
> Fish is certainly channeling her best Eartha. I can't help but think they invented her because they couldn't feature an adult Catwoman on the show


You are picky, but it's always with the Catwoman related things that I like :-P I kid, but I agree - I _like_ her. She's cute and "sassy," but something feels... not so genuine... in her performance? I haven't quite put my finger on it quite yet. I don't know, she annoys me sometimes. But, maybe she just needs to grow on me. And as far as little Bruce goes, I get it. I just wish they'd stop pushing the young love story so soon in the first season.

With Fish - I didn't think about her being the place-holder for and "adult Catwoman," but that makes a lot of sense.




> I've actually felt since the first episode that Pinkett has been dreadful and the worst thing about the show. To me, her performance is exceedingly *melodramatic*, like she thinks she's in a spoof or something. I've been enjoying most of the other performances, but find her extremely grating and horribly miscast.


I did say that her performance is severely dramatic, but there are people that are like that in the real world - so it doesn't feel like a spoof at all for me. Jada Pinkett is playing the part of Fish Mooney as a Drag Queen's interpretation of Eartha Kitt... and that's a good thing!

----------


## BatGlamorous

Woah, I didn't know they were bringing back 90s Selina for Convergence. Awesome!  :Big Grin: 

Now if only they had gotten O'Neil/Balent back on board for the last hurrah. Oh well.

----------


## Michael24

> I did say that her performance is severely dramatic, but there are people that are like that in the real world - so it doesn't feel like a spoof at all for me. Jada Pinkett is playing the part of Fish Mooney as a Drag Queen's interpretation of Eartha Kitt... and that's a good thing!


Yeah, but I said melodramatic, which means an over-exaggerated performance. All the other performances on the show feel natural, acting without looking like they're acting, but she comes across as someone who's deliberately making a big show about the fact she's acting, and to me it clashes gratingly with everything else. Not even the other mob characters on the show are played that exaggerated, and as a result I just find her entire presence more comical than serious. Her character would be better suited for a *Naked Gun* movie.

Back on the topic of Catwoman, anybody know if the *Future's End* One-Shot is worth picking up?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Back on the topic of Catwoman, anybody know if the *Future's End* One-Shot is worth picking up?


I don't like Oliffe's art. Story was ok but some parts I rolled my eyes at. Short answer - no.

----------


## Ticklefist

> Speaking of nostalgia... so excited at the announcement of the 90s Catwoman Convergence title!


Whoa-ho-hoah!

----------


## CatBoy

> Yeah, but I said melodramatic, which means an over-exaggerated performance. All the other performances on the show feel natural, acting without looking like they're acting, but she comes across as someone who's deliberately making a big show about the fact she's acting, and to me it clashes gratingly with everything else. Not even the other mob characters on the show are played that exaggerated, and as a result I just find her entire presence more comical than serious. Her character would be better suited for a *Naked Gun* movie.
> ?


Over-exaggerated, severely dramatic, melodramatic - now we're just going back and forth about semantics. They all mean the same thing. We agree on that. The only difference is that I like it and you don't. Yeah, she's the only melodramatic, over-exaggerated character on the show - but it reads real to me because that exists in the world. Look at Kanye West. But, if I was to cross Fish, I would take her very seriously.

----------


## CatBoy

> Whoa-ho-hoah!


Aww it's a baby!






> Back on the topic of Catwoman, anybody know if the *Future's End* One-Shot is worth picking up?


Mneh. It was okay. I agree with ChipsNo, I don't like the art.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Over-exaggerated, severely dramatic, melodramatic - now we're just going back and forth about semantics. They all mean the same thing. We agree on that. The only difference is that I like it and you don't. Yeah, she's the only melodramatic, over-exaggerated character on the show - but it reads real to me because that exists in the world. Look at Kanye West. But, if I was to cross Fish, I would take her very seriously.


Speaking of Fish Mooney, verrrrry interesting development next episode. So they're doing a tween BatCat and a midlife crisis BatCat version. I can't wait! LOL

http://io9.com/alfred-kicks-ass-flir...41121_35987377

----------


## Stormcrow

Genevieve Valentine shared on her website the first part of an outfit breakdown for Selina and her new supporting cast, with a look at the costume references that she provided to Garry Brown in order to establish the look for this run. I love the sleek power suit she's wearing as her main mob boss costume, and the reasoning for the ballgown is sound. Looking forward to see Garry's depiction of the "mark of state" broad lapels suit next issue.

It looks like Eiko will become a big part of this arc, can't wait to see where this goes. After not being able to read Catwoman for three years, this creative team has completely won me over after just one issue!

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Genevieve Valentine shared on her website the first part of an outfit breakdown for Selina and her new supporting cast, with a look at the costume references that she provided to Garry Brown in order to establish the look for this run. I love the sleek power suit she's wearing as her main mob boss costume, and the reasoning for the ballgown is sound. Looking forward to see Garry's depiction of the "mark of state" broad lapels suit next issue.
> 
> It looks like Eiko will become a big part of this arc, can't wait to see where this goes. After not being able to read Catwoman for three years, this creative team has completely won me over after just one issue!


This level of detail is always a good sign. Valentine's definitely done her research.

To think just two issues ago we had Ann "I wonder which cat Selina would like?" Nocenti on the masthead. Dark times.

----------


## vitamin

i'm itching for #36 preview. Is it up yet?

----------


## Thirteen

> Genevieve Valentine shared on her website the first part of an outfit breakdown for Selina and her new supporting cast, with a look at the costume references that she provided to Garry Brown in order to establish the look for this run. I love the sleek power suit she's wearing as her main mob boss costume, and the reasoning for the ballgown is sound. Looking forward to see Garry's depiction of the "mark of state" broad lapels suit next issue.
> 
> It looks like Eiko will become a big part of this arc, can't wait to see where this goes. After not being able to read Catwoman for three years, this creative team has completely won me over after just one issue!



Wonderful to read about such detail in considering what a character will wear.  Gives me hope that, at least visually, Catwoman (character and title) will be well put together.
I am infinitely more likely to seek out this run now.  Thanks for posting.

----------


## vitamin

> i'm itching for #36 preview. Is it up yet?


Yes, sweet vitamin, it is.

----------


## vitamin

cont.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

I don't like the artwork to begin with but it looks like it's deteriorating with this preview. I'm glad that Catwoman isn't Selina because its butt ugly.

Genevieve putting so much thought on Selina's wardrobe is wasted on Garry. Her suit looks so generic and dowdy. I think Ming Doyle would have done a better job of this.

----------


## 16 Bit

I dig the Garry Brown art. The "ugly" look sets the tone. Only thing I don't like is the actual Catwoman mask. Selina, the other people and especially Black Mask look cool. 

The new creative team has been a gigantic improvement. I am a huge fan of Selina and would read almost anything but had to quit during the Nocenti run. It wasn't just bad, I literally could not understand what was going on. I couldn't tell if I was missing something or if it was truly that poorly written.

----------


## Batman Fan

Has anyone read Trail of the Catwoman? I can't recall why Mayor Dickerson wanted to find out if Catwoman/Selina Kyle was still alive - what did it matter to him?  

Can anyone remember?

I can recall that the mob wanted to find out if Selina was alive as they'd previously paid Catwoman to kill her. But why was Dickerson so interested? Was it him who got the mob to have her killed?

----------


## 16 Bit

Comixology has a sale on 2011-2014 Catwoman going on now. Plus the excellent Catwoman: When in Rome. God help me, I bought the entire Nocenti run.

----------


## Abishai100

Catwoman dresses in an all-black colored cat-suit.

Maybe she wants to look like a black cat for a reason.  Jaguars are all black.  Killer whales and panda bears are all black-and-white.  Black and white represents perception acuity and maybe that's why the Eastern Yin-Yang spiritual symbol is half-black and half-white.

Catwoman prowls Gotham and maybe notices the scheming Penguin's eerie black-and-white tuxedo or various other black-and-white signs of perception chopsticks.




 :EEK!: 


bw.jpg

----------


## Abishai100

I remember watching that creepy Max Schreck film "Nosferatu"(1922) which featured the most eccentric interpretation of the famous vampire-bloodsucker folk tales and thinking that if bats, which are simply flying rodents, inspire people to think seriously about odd behaviors, then maybe Catwoman (a cat inspiree) who has subtle affections for Batman (a bat inspiree), are the perfect creature-voyeurism odd couple.


After all, vampires love bats, elephants are scared of mice (rodents), and Bruce Wayne is a guilty pleasure for Selina Kyle.



 :EEK!:

----------


## Batman Fan

I recently started reading the Brubaker Catwoman run. Awesome so far - pretty dark too.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Genevieve Valentine shared on her website the first part of an outfit breakdown for Selina and her new supporting cast, with a look at the costume references that she provided to Garry Brown in order to establish the look for this run. I love the sleek power suit she's wearing as her main mob boss costume, and the reasoning for the ballgown is sound. Looking forward to see Garry's depiction of the "mark of state" broad lapels suit next issue.
> 
> It looks like Eiko will become a big part of this arc, can't wait to see where this goes. After not being able to read Catwoman for three years, this creative team has completely won me over after just one issue!


The amount of thought she has put into Selina, her 'new' world and how she operates in it seems incredible!  I love that she has thought all the way down to how Selina would dress across the arc, not something I think a lot of writers think about at all.

----------


## Internet-man

> The amount of thought she has put into Selina, her 'new' world and how she operates in it seems incredible!  I love that she has thought all the way down to how Selina would dress across the arc, not something I think a lot of writers think about at all.


Second issue of her on the book and the second time in a row Catwoman was my favorite book for the month. This and the current version of Detective Comics are all I need from the Bat books

----------


## 16 Bit

I'm reminded of that old Selina's style drawing Cooke did. I love them putting that much thought into a character that should care about her appearance.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Unfortunately, it doesn't show from the output.

----------


## The Kid

> I recently started reading the Brusker Catwoman run. Awesome so far - pretty dark too.


I got that on my bucket list. Really need to get to it soon!

----------


## phonogram12

> I got that on my bucket list. Really need to get to it soon!


You won't be disappointed. Other than the stupendous writing and characterization, the first 24 issues had some of the best artist's Catwoman has ever had.

----------


## Steven Ely

Catwoman collage I put together last year. 
PicMonkey Collagebv.jpg

----------


## evangelionofasgard

Daniel Govar

----------


## Ticklefist

Former forum user LostInFandom messaged me with this interview with Ed Brubaker that discusses his run on Catwoman. Among other things he discusses his plans to kill her off which DevilsAdvocate, another former forum user, had brought to light a couple years back. Check it out.

http://comicsalliance.com/ed-brubake...hree-catwoman/

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Former forum user LostInFandom messaged me with this interview with Ed Brubaker that discusses his run on Catwoman. Among other things he discusses his plans to kill her off which DevilsAdvocate, another former forum user, had brought to light a couple years back. Check it out.
> 
> http://comicsalliance.com/ed-brubake...hree-catwoman/


Blech. Dead pregnant hooker? He really hates Selina, doesn't he? Anyway, all that is of no consequence anymore, thank God.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Former forum user LostInFandom messaged me with this interview with Ed Brubaker that discusses his run on Catwoman. Among other things he discusses his plans to kill her off which DevilsAdvocate, another former forum user, had brought to light a couple years back. Check it out.
> http://comicsalliance.com/ed-brubake...hree-catwoman/


What a fantastic interview, thanks Ticklefist! So much great stuff in this article.

Ed Brubaker is my favorite Catwoman writer, hands down. He kept her fun like the 90s but with more gravitas and having her care for the poor, run down inhabitants of the East End. I definitely liked her as a pseudo-Batman for the East End but with her own code and still willing to steal/cheat/law-break when needed. I recall her rules were: 1) no stealing from East Enders, 2) no killing no crimnals (those not in the "game"), and 3) absolutely no drugs with kids. This was so un-Batman who is a zero tolerance kind of guy but Selina is always about the greys, not black and white.

Darwyn Cooke was a hard turn for the art but I loved the 50s style and how he'd fit a lot of panels on the page, maybe 16 or 17. Just with the art and maybe one or two short dialog bubbles they could get so much expression out of the characters. This is a big contrast to the wacky New52 Selina which had tons of blah blah blah dialog and thought bubbles and a mish mash of art weirdness (100' whips, bigger than Balent busts, inhuman body shapes, etc). Nocenti couldn't stop writing: some pages were just crammed with talking and thought bubbles. But Ed and Cooke/Stewart got so much mileage out of every look and every word. Wow, what a difference.

Another thing that struck me about Brubaker is that he not only wrote a great gay relationship without clichés but he wrote women relating with other women really well, e.g. Selina-Holly-Karon. That seems pretty rare for comics and he totally aced it.

Very cool that Ed was influenced by Simon of The Wire fame. Gotham Central always felt very Wire-ish.

It's really too bad that DC nixed Ed's plan with Catwoman "dying" (these deaths are never permanent) despite having Selina "die" at the end of the 90s run right before Ed took over! And then the other part of his sales pitch - who's the father - was done with One Year Later. Such a shame DC didn't keep Ed for another year or two. Oh well, what he gave us was awesome.

----------


## vitamin

> Blech. Dead pregnant hooker? He really hates Selina, doesn't he? Anyway, all that is of no consequence anymore, thank God.


Hallelujah.

----------


## Batman Fan

> Former forum user LostInFandom messaged me with this interview with Ed Brubaker that discusses his run on Catwoman. Among other things he discusses his plans to kill her off which DevilsAdvocate, another former forum user, had brought to light a couple years back. Check it out.
> 
> http://comicsalliance.com/ed-brubake...hree-catwoman/


Thanks for posting Ticklefist. Fantastic interview.

----------


## heyevaxx

Not sure if this has been posted, but Antimad1 recently did a beautiful drawing of Catwoman called "Flight." I love her eyes shut in mid-leap with her whip cracking. Plus, I really like her zipped up!
Flight by Antimad1

----------


## CatBoy

> Blech. Dead pregnant hooker? He really hates Selina, doesn't he? Anyway, all that is of no consequence anymore, thank God.


Well, actually dead, pregnant, *ex*-hooker, is _much_ better than dead, pregnant with your former lovers' son, ex-hooker. If Brubaker would have gotten the chance to stay on the book and tell his version of the story - we might have been in a better place with Selina pre-New52. 

Just saying.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Well, actually dead, pregnant, *ex*-hooker, is _much_ better than dead, pregnant with your former lovers' son, ex-hooker. If Brubaker would have gotten the chance to stay on the book and tell his version of the story - we might have been in a better place with Selina pre-New52. 
> 
> Just saying.


So Brubaker is marginally better than Pfeiffer by a tiny hair. Woo hoo.

----------


## LostinFandom

Reregistered because I wanted to expand on why I brought up the interview with ticklefist.

1) Brubaker's run is extremely influential.  Every subsequent Catwoman writer is compared to him. Will Pfeifer and Judd Winick basically quoted passages of his through their runs.  I have little doubt that the current noir based direction for the book is because people see Brubaker's influence as the right way to do the character.

2) Knowing that the was planning on killing Selina and making Holly Catwoman, for me, confirms why I think his influence in the Pfeifer and Winick runs was not great.  He was headed towards an ending, and you can't go on forever and be headed for an ending. (It felt particularly out of place for Winick as he was relaunching the character and the violent tragedies thrown at her generally felt like too much too soon.) As the saying goes, there's no water in that well. 

3) Some mixed feelings I have about Brubaker's work in general.  For all the acclaim he gets about his female characters, he's a pretty macho writer.  Having him say this makes it feel more okay to point out that Slam Bradley (and Holly) had a much stronger narrator voice than Selina Kyle.  As a he isn't that interested in breaking the male gaze.  _Fatale_ is narrated in first  percent omniscient by Nicholas Lash (it makes sense in the end), _Velvet_ starts with Jeffers thinking about Velvet's sex life while he dies.  Most of the narrators in _Criminal_ are men.  (I haven't read all of that title but through the first four arcs only one issue is narrated by a woman, that issue is in flash back and she's already been murdered.)  Some of this could be attributed to his dedication to noir, but it's sort of bigger than that.

I don't think he hates the character of Selina Kyle (kill your darlings and all that). I do wonder if he thought Holly as Catwoman was a character that had more potential as she wouldn't have the baggage of being Batman's love interest.  As I said on the old boards, I think it would be better for the character of Catwoman to have more distance from Batman. Ideally, I'd like to have the kind that exists between Constantine and Swamp Thing.  Yes I know that's not going to happen.




> Well, actually dead, pregnant, *ex*-hooker, is _much_ better than dead, pregnant with your former lovers' son, ex-hooker. If Brubaker would have gotten the chance to stay on the book and tell his version of the story - we might have been in a better place with Selina pre-New52. 
> 
> Just saying.


An odd moment in the issue was when he claimed that he had no idea Slam had a son, when Brusker co created him and wrote him in several issues, including the Selina/Bruce date one that he references.

----------


## Ticklefist

> Reregistered because


You sucker.  :Smile: 

1) Yeah that'd be my guess.

2) He ended up taking the idea with him to Captain America. That worked out alright.

3) I feel that he delivered on what he said in the article. Never once did Karon and Holly have me thinking "Oh, this is couple is gay? That's super duper meaningful!" There was no tragedy. They were portrayed as people, not statements. Good on him.

----------


## CatBoy

> So Brubaker is marginally better than Pfeiffer by a tiny hair. Woo hoo.


The idea is marginally better than Pfeiffer on paper - correct, but I can almost bet without a doubt that Brubaker's execution of the events would have been _expansively_ better than Pfeiffer's.

And it would have maybe _lessened_ the chance that we would have had that whole Zatanna brainwash mess that, for me, really damaged what Brubaker set-up since issue one.




> Reregistered because I wanted to expand on why I brought up the interview with ticklefist.
> 
> 1) Brubaker's run is extremely influential.  Every subsequent Catwoman writer is compared to him. Will Pfeifer and Judd Winick basically quoted passages of his through their runs.  I have little doubt that the current noir based direction for the book is because people see Brubaker's influence as the right way to do the character.
> 
> 2) Knowing that the was planning on killing Selina and making Holly Catwoman, for me, confirms why I think his influence in the Pfeifer and Winick runs was not great.  He was headed towards an ending, and you can't go on forever and be headed for an ending. (It felt particularly out of place for Winick as he was relaunching the character and the violent tragedies thrown at her generally felt like too much too soon.) As the saying goes, there's no water in that well. 
> 
> 3) Some mixed feelings I have about Brubaker's work in general.  For all the acclaim he gets about his female characters, he's a pretty macho writer.  Having him say this makes it feel more okay to point out that Slam Bradley (and Holly) had a much stronger narrator voice than Selina Kyle.  As a he isn't that interested in breaking the male gaze.  _Fatale_ is narrated in first  percent omniscient by Nicholas Lash (it makes sense in the end), _Velvet_ starts with Jeffers thinking about Velvet's sex life while he dies.  Most of the narrators in _Criminal_ are men.  (I haven't read all of that title but through the first four arcs only one issue is narrated by a woman, that issue is in flash back and she's already been murdered.)  Some of this could be attributed to his dedication to noir, but it's sort of bigger than that.
> 
> I don't think he hates the character of Selina Kyle (kill your darlings and all that). I do wonder if he thought Holly as Catwoman was a character that had more potential as she wouldn't have the baggage of being Batman's love interest.  As I said on the old boards, I think it would be better for the character of Catwoman to have more distance from Batman. Ideally, I'd like to have the kind that exists between Constantine and Swamp Thing.  Yes I know that's not going to happen.
> ...


Great interview by the way, LostIn!

1) I completely agree, and as much as I haven't been the biggest fan of either writer that was mentioned - those were my favorite little easter eggs when they homaged to Brubaker. And the latter part is pretty clear as day.

2) Yes, there was an _ending_ per se, but in the interview he also said that "Holly was going be the new Catwoman _for awhile_," which if i know anything from Captain America, and from comics in general - nobody stays dead for too long. Maybe he would have given Holly more of a run as Catwoman. It would have just been interesting to see.

3) I agree with what Tickle says. I also agree with giving Catwoman a little bit of distance to Batman - and more time to thrive on her own as a character.

And, you know, I was wondering if he created Slam or not when I was reading it - but he was that much of a minor character to Brubaker. And, at least, he would have not had her "sleep with both a father and his son."

----------


## LostinFandom

> The idea is marginally better than Pfeiffer on paper - correct, but I can almost bet without a doubt that Brubaker's execution of the events would have been _expansively_ better than Pfeiffer's.
> 
> And it would have maybe _lessened_ the chance that we would have had that whole Zatanna brainwash mess that, for me, really damaged what Brubaker set-up since issue one.
> 
> 
> 
> Great interview by the way, LostIn!
> 
> 1) I completely agree, and as much as I haven't been the biggest fan of either writer that was mentioned - those were my favorite little easter eggs when they homaged to Brubaker. And the latter part is pretty clear as day.
> ...


What Brubaker wrote of the Slam/Sam Jr  relationship was mostly about how Slam was a negligent father, and what Sam Jr saw of his father's life before Selina. (When Sam Jr met Selina he thought she was his father's dominatrix.)

I think the Zatanna mind wipe was much worse for Selina's character than having child with Sam Jr.  That plot may have happened regardless of who was writing.

I' kind of of two minds about the shared universe thing. On the one hand it will always screw up any long running plan of any writer. On the other every title should have the the feeling that things in the other titles could happen. Catwoman spent about half a year in part of a battle against invaders from Earth 3.  I think her title should look like that is part of her world.

I like the first two thirds of Brubaker's run fine. I really would rather future writers not try an imitate it. (To her credit, Genevieve Valentine doesn't come off like she is. I didn't like the premise she got before she started writing, and her writing hasn't made me like it, but as I said, I'm biased against it.)

----------


## BatGlamorous

I thought it would be interesting to see what Catwoman memorabilia we all have  :Smile: 

TPB:
Catwoman Her Sister's Keeper
Catwoman Defiant
Catwoman Nine Lives of The Feline Fatale

Comics:
Catwoman (1991 first series), almost everything pre-Cataclysm/NML + Annuals #1-3, #1 signed by Giordano, Balent, and Duffy (from eBay  :Stick Out Tongue: )
Catwoman (2002 second series), almost everything, I think the first 60 issues or so
Catwoman (2011 third series), Guillem March's full run, #0, Future's End, some random Nocenti issues I got during back issue sales on FCBD + Valentine's recent issues.

Other:
Funko Pop Catwoman 1966 vinyl figure
Play Arts Kai Arkham City Catwoman figure
Funko Catwoman miniature figure
Batman Arkham City (PC)

I also had Batman Returns on VHS, a few Catwoman action figures, and the Gameboy Color game from when I was little but those have all since been donated/lost over the years.

----------


## Michael24

This is awesome! *Catwoman* #40 movie poster variant.



See the rest of DC's March movie poster variants (and there are some great ones) here - http://io9.com/dcs-march-variant-cov...loo-1670728033

----------


## 16 Bit

Love that cover. Kind of want a real poster of it on my wall.

I have a TON of Catwoman memorabilia. I've got a shelf full of CW statues, some figures, I have the Funko Pop DKR Selina Kyle and 66 TV series CW. On my desk I have a photo signed by Julie Newmar and a piece of Injustice art signed by Grey DeLisle. The most unique thing is a big banner that has Catwoman from Injustice on it from a tournament I went to earlier this year. They were hanging on the ceiling and I got hers.

----------


## CatBoy

Love the variant... but might love the actual cover even more...



Jae Lee just kills it every time!

----------


## Michael24

> I thought it would be interesting to see what Catwoman memorabilia we all have


This isn't everything (I'm not about to go through my individual Batman comics to find which issues feature a Selina appearance), but this is what I thought of in terms of a "Catwoman collection."

*COMICS:*
Catwoman (1993 series): 0-13, 15-20, 22, 23, Annual #2
Catwoman: The Catfile
Catwoman (New 52): Volumes 1-3

*MISCELLANEOUS:*
Batman Returns DVD and Blu-ray
Catwoman (video game; GameBoy Color)
DC Direct Batman: Arkham City figure
Ertl Batman: The Animated Series die cast figurine
The Further Adventures of Batman, Vol 3: Catwoman
Kenner Batman Returns figure
Kenner Batman: The Animated Series figure




> Funko Catwoman miniature figure


Would that be this one by any chance? If so, that's awesome and I need it.  :Smile:

----------


## BatGlamorous

> 


Yup, that would be the one. You rarely ever see anything from the Balent years acknowledged unfortunately, so I naturally had to snatch it up the moment I saw it. Apparently (from the side of the box) there's another Catwoman figurine from them who's crouched and smirking.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Love the variant... but might love the actual cover even more...
> 
> 
> 
> Jae Lee just kills it every time!


She's growing her hair!

----------


## vitamin

Covers can be misleading.

----------


## Stormcrow

I hope it actually comes out with a white background like the rest of the run, this one looks a little jarring in comparison. I was digging the minimalistic, almost monochromatic look.

But it is indeed my favorite yet!

----------


## vitamin

#38 sneak peek

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

November Sales out:
91	Catwoman	36	$2.99	DC	26,237

Up from October:
113	Catwoman	35	$2.99	DC	25,970

Word is getting around that Catwoman is no longer the suckiest book in the DCnU. But she needs more marketing.

----------


## CatBoy

> November Sales out:
> 91	Catwoman	36	$2.99	DC	26,237
> 
> Up from October:
> 113	Catwoman	35	$2.99	DC	25,970
> 
> Word is getting around that Catwoman is no longer the suckiest book in the DCnU. But she needs more marketing.


Agreed! Not a massive jump, but for the fact that my own LCS Guy had no idea about the new direction of Catwoman (he is a Marvel guy - but he also eats, lives, breathes comics, and runs an extremely successful LCS where he hears what is on the up and up), just shows me that DC needs to back this project more.

More ads with the beautiful Jae Lee Covers, Interviews, etc. etc.

----------


## Ticklefist

> I thought it would be interesting to see what Catwoman memorabilia we all have


If it has her name in the title and came out before 2012 then I own it. Ditto for prominent modern age appearances. A shame I stopped because I was getting to the point where it was time to start gathering some of her pre-crisis appearances.

Outside of that I just have a Pez dispenser.




> Love the variant... but might love the actual cover even more...
> 
> 
> 
> Jae Lee just kills it every time!


Jeez, them hips.

What?

----------


## CatBoy

> She's growing her hair!


Yeah, like Vitamin says, covers are misleading... remember those beautiful AH covers with Selina looking ravishing with her black short hair and then you open the book to that mousy brown long haired David Lopez Selina...

----------


## CatBoy

> If it has her name in the title and came out before 2012 then I own it. Ditto for prominent modern age appearances. A shame I stopped because I was getting to the point where it was time to start gathering some of her pre-crisis appearances.
> 
> Outside of that I just have a Pez dispenser.
> 
> Jeez, them hips.
> 
> What?


I have that Pez dispenser too! My Catwoman collection is growing for sure... can't wait for the BTAS figure to come out!

And dem hips don't compare to Tim Sale's Selina....



I mean DEM HIPS! Still my favorite Sel hands down.

----------


## Ticklefist

> And dem hips don't compare to Tim Sale's Selina....


She owes that belt a high five.

----------


## nepenthes

As much as I like Garry Browns artwork I dont think it's the best pick for attracting fresh attention from a broader audience. The Jae Lee covers are excellent in that sense, striking and intriguing pin-ups you can splash all over the internet, but when it comes to a new reader actually flicking through a preview the artwork isn't exactly helping sell the book. If Valentine says on in June they could swap in someone more high profile and widely palatable and then revert to Brown once it's got some audience again.

----------


## chongjasmine

I really like Catwoman. I think she is so cool.
Few comics depict women in such a cool manner.
I think DC has better female heroines than marvel.

----------


## Michael24

Funko is coming out with a new line of figures called Pin-up Vinyl Vixens. I couldn't find any additional info like pricing, size or release dates, but these were apparently announced in October and said to be arriving "in the coming months."

Here is the Catwoman figure. I love it!



Follow the link below to see images of the Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn figures that will round out the first series, which also look great.

http://popvinyl.net/pop-vinyl-news/f...vixens-series/

----------


## Abishai100

How about some Catwoman-modeled gingerbread cookies for Christmas Eve?

Selina Kyle, Gotham's meek secretary, gets a turn towards the world of daredevils and challenges the Dark Knight's dominion over vigilantism.

Why are women so fascinated with cats?  Why are cops threatened by any kind of mischief?



 :EEK!:

----------


## 16 Bit

So I was reading the entire Ann Nocenti run just to catch up. It's....not good. Anyway, there was a storyline where Selina stole a supernatural diamond for that Trip Winter guy. He gave it to some Illuminati dude who had glowing skin and promised revenge. No one ever brought this up again. Was this ever followed up on in another book? I feel I only understood half of what was going on with Nocenti's writing.

----------


## tbgo

> I recently started reading the Brubaker Catwoman run. Awesome so far - pretty dark too.


It was good, but then it just became monotonous. Writing the character as a Robin Hood, along with the excessively dark tone took its toll midway through the run.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> So I was reading the entire Ann Nocenti run just to catch up. It's....not good. Anyway, there was a storyline where Selina stole a supernatural diamond for that Trip Winter guy. He gave it to some Illuminati dude who had glowing skin and promised revenge. No one ever brought this up again. Was this ever followed up on in another book? I feel I only understood half of what was going on with Nocenti's writing.


It was part of the Black Diamond crossover. http://www.comicvine.com/the-black-d...-56953/issues/ I don't know why, Nocenti probably volunteered like she did with Gothtopia. 

The feeling of only half understanding Nocenti's catwoman isn't tied exclusively to this arc.  Overall, her run on the book was rather difficult to follow and enjoy.

----------


## Smart

You dont need to read nocentis run to understand what's going on, I'd save yourself the money. Read batman 28 and batman eternal if you haven't if you want to get the ins and outs of what's going on right now in the book. The nocenti run gets worse and worse as it rolls on then they got olliffe on art and it read badly and looked bad (check out Gwen trying to kill herself in race of the outlaws, woman shoots the wall behind her 50 times lol)

----------


## phonogram12

> Originally Posted by Batman Fan  
> I recently started reading the Brubaker Catwoman run. Awesome so far - pretty dark too.


Those first 24 issues in particular were some of the best comics printed in the last 14 years.

----------


## Michael24

Between a local comic shop and online, I was able to pick up the first Catwoman series over Christmas and finally got a chance to read it last night. I know there are some vocal haters of it here, but I have to say that I enjoyed it. There were a few times (especially early on) where I thought the story was a little jumpy, like there were some panels missing that could have smoothed out scene transitions, but overall I liked it quite a bit.

----------


## CatBoy

> Between a local comic shop and online, I was able to pick up the first Catwoman series over Christmas and finally got a chance to read it last night. I know there are some vocal haters of it here, but I have to say that I enjoyed it. There were a few times (especially early on) where I thought the story was a little jumpy, like there were some panels missing that could have smoothed out scene transitions, but overall I liked it quite a bit.


I am one of the fans that actually appreciate this run, but it is definitely flawed (even Mindy Newell herself seems embarrassed of the mini-series). The main issue people have with this series has to do with Batman: Year One and Frank Miller, and not the actual series. Her Sisters Keeper was the origin story of my Catwoman growing up, I remember seeing "For Mature Readers" on the cover and hiding it from my parents when I was a kid. The dominatrix/prostitution origin just gives Selina an extra dimension to her childhood on the streets, and something to grow from and conquer. It gives an origin to the Catwoman costume and whip (the best one so far - I'm looking at you Nocenti... I mean a tarp?). I also liked the addition of her sister Magdalene and the sinner/saint juxtaposition that name represents.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I've always wanted the floppies of the original mini, but I can never seem to find a good deal on them.

Speaking of deal-finding, why are Catwoman (1st) #56 and #57 so pricey? Is it because they're a Cataclysm tie-in? I was lucky enough to find #56 for about $4 at a con last year, but I've never seen #57 priced below about $8-$10! Too rich for my blood, especially for a standard comic that's not even 20 years old! The NML tie-ins are a little high as well, but not nearly as bad.

----------


## Michael24

> I've always wanted the floppies of the original mini, but I can never seem to find a good deal on them.


Yeah, my LCS has them all together $30 and another shop wanted nearly $40!

You can get them pretty cheap from here, though.
http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=105461

That's where I bought #2-4 (for about $10, including shipping), after first picking up #1 in the store to see what it was like.

----------


## CatBoy

> I've always wanted the floppies of the original mini, but I can never seem to find a good deal on them.
> 
> Speaking of deal-finding, why are Catwoman (1st) #56 and #57 so pricey? Is it because they're a Cataclysm tie-in? I was lucky enough to find #56 for about $4 at a con last year, but I've never seen #57 priced below about $8-$10! Too rich for my blood, especially for a standard comic that's not even 20 years old! The NML tie-ins are a little high as well, but not nearly as bad.


I feel like such a fool for spending like maybe $30+ on #31 of the 90s series back in the day... it was because it was tie-in to the whole "Contagion" event, I want to say #32 was hard to get a hold of back then too. But cest la vie, I was like 11 years old with birthday money burning a hole in my pocket at a Convention.

----------


## Michael24

Been meaning to ask for awhile. How was *Gotham City Sirens* that Selina starred in with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn? Worth checking out? Sounds like a trio that would be fun to read about.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Been meaning to ask for awhile. How was *Gotham City Sirens* that Selina starred in with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn? Worth checking out? Sounds like a trio that would be fun to read about.


It was good, but nothing spectacular either. Paul Dini excels at writing those three, but the plot became somewhat dumb and convulted with the writer change after the first year. It's still worth checking out, though!

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I've always wanted the floppies of the original mini, but I can never seem to find a good deal on them.
> 
> Speaking of deal-finding, why are Catwoman (1st) #56 and #57 so pricey? Is it because they're a Cataclysm tie-in? I was lucky enough to find #56 for about $4 at a con last year, but I've never seen #57 priced below about $8-$10! Too rich for my blood, especially for a standard comic that's not even 20 years old! The NML tie-ins are a little high as well, but not nearly as bad.


and no sooner than I say this, I manage to land 56-57 for about $7 on eBay! I'll probably either give my own #56 to the LCS or if someone wants it I'd be happy to do that as well.  :Smile: 

--

Does anybody remember how Madonna was considered for the role of Catwoman back in '92? She certainly wouldn't have been as good or better than Michelle, but I think it would have been interesting enough to see. I thought she did well in Dick Tracy, which is pretty similar.

In any case it would have been more entertaining than if they had casted Cher in the role back in the early Nolan days as was rumored. That would have just been awkward to watch, if not an interesting take on the character.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Does anybody remember how Madonna was considered for the role of Catwoman back in '92? She certainly wouldn't have been as good or better than Michelle, but I think it would have been interesting enough to see. I thought she did well in Dick Tracy, which is pretty similar.


I never heard about Madonna being considered.  The only alternate casting that really interests me is how Annette Benning was originally cast but dropped out due to her pregnancy.  I associate Benning with high strung, neurotic roles, and she did play the Marquise de Merteuil in _Valmont_ a few years earlier so it shouldn't be that hard to picture. (It now strikes me as really funny that Michelle Pfiefer played Madame de Tourvel in a different movie based on _Dangerous Liasons_ made at the same time. And according to IMDB Pfieffer was offered the Marquise role in _Valmont_ too.)




> Between a local comic shop and online, I was able to pick up the first Catwoman series over Christmas and finally got a chance to read it last night. I know there are some vocal haters of it here, but I have to say that I enjoyed it. There were a few times (especially early on) where I thought the story was a little jumpy, like there were some panels missing that could have smoothed out scene transitions, but overall I liked it quite a bit.


I hate this story more than any other Catwoman story I've ever read and that includes the _Catwoman_ annual that "Selene" is the species name and Talia is the Catwoman.  Of the (arguably) three leads in Batman: Year One Selina is the only one who isn't given any interior thoughts and her POV is even more dismissed by this spin off.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> And I think it's safe to say that what's going on in Catwoman now, and Helena's mob connections, and Selina's mafia connections — there's going to be some cool stuff going on between those two.


http://www.newsarama.com/23216-grays...niversary.html


Ah, I can't wait to see Mikel Janin draw Selina.

----------


## Thirteen

> I never heard about Madonna being considered.  The only alternate casting that really interests me is how Annette Benning was originally cast but dropped out due to her pregnancy.  I associate Benning with high strung, neurotic roles, and she did play the Marquise de Merteuil in _Valmont_ a few years earlier so it shouldn't be that hard to picture. (It now strikes me as really funny that Michelle Pfiefer played Madame de Tourvel in a different movie based on _Dangerous Liasons_ made at the same time. And according to IMDB Pfieffer was offered the Marquise role in _Valmont_ too.)
> .



 I recall at the time that Bennings lock on the role of Selina Kyle came from her performance in the neo-noir Scorsese producted film "The Grifters".  Worth a look.

----------


## LostinFandom

> http://www.newsarama.com/23216-grays...niversary.html
> 
> 
> Ah, I can't wait to see Mikel Janin draw Selina.


THis answered three questions I had. 1) will Selina as mob boss continue most Convergence (yes). 2) Was there any reason between Catwoman's appearance in Greyson's _Secret Origins_ story (foreshadowing) and 3) Will there ever be Selina as Kingpin appearances in Titles besides _Catwoman_ or _Batman Eternal_.




> I recall at the time that Bennings lock on the role of Selina Kyle came from her performance in the neo-noir Scorsese producted film "The Grifters".  Worth a look.


I heard Benning got that role because director Stephen Frears felt bad no one saw her performance in _Valmont_ as his _Dangerous Liaisons_ was a hit. Making this even more circular.

----------


## CatBoy

> Ah, I can't wait to see Mikel Janin draw Selina.


I totally called this a day before the story broke! So excited to see Mikel Janin's Selina as well.




> I'm also excited what the mob connections could mean for Helena and the new Kingpin of Gotham Selina Kyle in the near future?


Just saying. And can I just say the cover of the Convergence: Catwoman #1 doesn't really work for me...



It's not a bad-looking cover per se, but it's not rocking my socks. I do love all the cats though.

----------


## brainticket

^She looks like deformed Batgirl.

----------


## LostinFandom

Genevieve Valentine wrote a second blog post about fashion in Catwoman.  It's mostly about Eiko. Please read carefully if you had any dout that she and Garry Brown are on the same page about these things.

Also here is an article about how fashion changed with the popularity of biking in Victorian times  It's from a few months ago, but it's pretty fun.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Just saying. And can I just say the cover of the Convergence: Catwoman #1 doesn't really work for me...
> 
> 
> It's not a bad-looking cover per se, but it's not rocking my socks. I do love all the cats though.


I have a soft spot for anything not in the "house style", so it's a winner for me.

+ you can't go wrong with the purple suit, of course.  :Wink:

----------


## Michael24

> Just saying. And can I just say the cover of the Convergence: Catwoman #1 doesn't really work for me...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a bad-looking cover per se, but it's not rocking my socks. I do love all the cats though.


Yeah, that's pretty bad. The color scheme is bland and it doesn't even really look like "Catwoman." Could just be some generic character drawn by a random person online.

Like you said, though, the cats hanging around are nice, though.  :Smile:

----------


## CatBoy

> Genevieve Valentine wrote a second blog post about fashion in Catwoman.  It's mostly about Eiko. Please read carefully if you had any dout that she and Garry Brown are on the same page about these things.
> 
> Also here is an article about how fashion changed with the popularity of biking in Victorian times  It's from a few months ago, but it's pretty fun.


God, I love Genevieve. Really taking extreme care and detail in Selina's style... and she has always deserved this.




> I have a soft spot for anything not in the "house style", so it's a winner for me.
> 
> + you can't go wrong with the purple suit, of course.





> Yeah, that's pretty bad. The color scheme is bland and it doesn't even really look like "Catwoman." Could just be some generic character drawn by a random person online.
> 
> Like you said, though, the cats hanging around are nice, though.


I agree with Michael, as much as I appreciate style-heavy artists... it just doesn't seem like 90s Catwoman... I was really hoping Balent would get to draw the cover.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I was really hoping Balent would get to draw the cover.


Do you really?

His variant for Catwoman #39:


Yikes.

----------


## CatBoy

> Do you really?
> 
> His variant for Catwoman #39:
> 
> 
> Yikes.


I know, I posted it somewhere around here when I first saw it. I'm not a fan of his interpretation of the new52 Selina, but I'd love to see him draw the Selina he helped make famous. And, the cover isn't great, but the horrifying thing on that cover isn't Catwoman, it's his... interesting... version of Harley Quinn.

 I still want Jim Balent covers for stories about 90s Catwoman.

----------


## CatBoy

So, Nocenti has now talked a little bit about Catwoman and Grayson on her blog... (so it seems like she is probably staying on after Covergence!!):




> Reviews for the series have continued to be positive, which pleases me to no end. For those who might be newer to comics and like deep analysis in context of other books and comics culture, Rainbow Hub has a really thoughtful take on #37 and of the Annual, both of which provided context I hadn’t known about, and *which gave me some wonderful grist for the mill at the recent Bat-office summit when I got to chat with the Grayson writers about Upcoming Things*.
> 
> If you’re reading Catwoman, thank you so much. It’s a dream to be working on this book; I hope to be able to continue telling Selina’s story for a while.


So, that seems extremely positive on how things are going with Genevieve's interaction with the Bat-Office. I'm excited to have a writer on Selina be more integrated on the bigger picture! 

After doing some clicking around, there were some interesting items on these reviews that get me all tingly inside in Catwoman's comparison to Grayson:




> With three issues of Selina’s time within the Calabrese family in the can, the new status quo is beginning to shape up as a very interesting foil to Tom King and Tim Seeley’s Grayson, especially with Selina’s decision to go ahead with Nick’s execution. Both Selina and Dick infiltrate what they consider to be the enemy, only to awaken aptitudes and appetites that make them just as good at playing for the wrong side as they ever were at the right one. It isn’t particularly surprising that sex and death are where Dick and Selina part ways, but the directions their creative teams charted for them are. It’s Dick who finds himself drowning in sex and Selina with her finger on the trigger. Of all the Robins, Dick has always had the most unforgiving grip on the preservation of life at all costs, most recently on display as he traversed a desert with a newborn infant in his hands while Midnighter heckled him to kill the baby the whole way. It’s the one thing that Seely and King absolutely cannot compromise in Dick, and probably the last thing he’ll be able to call his own when their time is up. By contrast, both sex and death have always come naturally to Selina. When she tells Eiko that she’ll extract the cost of Nick’s death from Black Mask, her words are given special weight by her having killed him twice prior to Flashpoint: first by throwing him off the balcony of his own penthouse in the electrifying peak of Ed Brubacker and Cameron Stewart’s time together, and again by shooting him in the face at point blank range in the Will Phieffer/Pete Woods run that followed. It’s one of the few truly gratifying moments of the New 52, being able to truly understand the malice behind her threat that even she isn’t supposed to fully grasp. More interesting, and a far more significant break with Catwoman tradition in general is the lack of sex.


God, this reviewer is so eloquent and so extremely thoughtful and knowledgeable on Catwoman's history.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I've wanted a Catwoman/Grayson crossover since the books were announced, so that's great. I think it would be nice to have a Gotham After Midnight/Batgirl or Gotham Academy crossover too, a way to get all of the new titles to interact early on and raise their exposure.

----------


## CatBoy

> I still want Jim Balent covers for stories about 90s Catwoman.


I guess I got what I wanted, well kind of... the Chipp Kidd's Variant for Catwoman Convergence #1

----------


## M L A

Makes me happy to hear that she's been talking with other writers--especially Grayson's writers!

I'm normally wary of crossovers but I don't think I'd mind a crossover or something of the sort between Catwoman and Grayson.

----------


## CatBoy

Here is a great Newmar Catwoman by the only Kevin Wada:



Here is some beautiful sketches of his Catwoman Egyptian redesign:



And, finally, one of my other favorite artists Francesco Francavilla's Selina:

----------


## LostinFandom

> I've wanted a Catwoman/Grayson crossover since the books were announced, so that's great. I think it would be nice to have a Gotham After Midnight/Batgirl or Gotham Academy crossover too, a way to get all of the new titles to interact early on and raise their exposure.


Any thoughts about how Batgirl, Gotham Academy, etc having Endgame tie in issues why Catwoman doesn't?

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Any thoughts about how Batgirl, Gotham Academy, etc having Endgame tie in issues why Catwoman doesn't?


DiDio has made a long history of not giving her or her book the time of day. This doesn't surprise me. It's shameful.

Has anybody read Catwoman/Wildcat or Catwoman/Vampirella? I found both on eBay for under 5 each, so I got them. Never hurts to expand the collection a bit!  :Wink:

----------


## Red_11

> DiDio has made a long history of not giving her or her book the time of day. This doesn't surprise me. It's shameful.


Thoughts on Didio aside, not having Catwoman forced into a ridiculous crossover is fine by me.  I prefer my stories self contained.

----------


## LostinFandom

> DiDio has made a long history of not giving her or her book the time of day. This doesn't surprise me. It's shameful.


I'd blame Scott Snyder before I'd blame DiDio. Snyder has remarkably little interest in Catwoman/Selina. (Every other Bat writer used her in a speaking role in the 2.5 years he was writing _Batman_ before he did, and that was to announce Selina would no longer be Catwoman. Also if you look at his interviews after the Death of Family and Zero Year tie ins he goes on about how they included some of the best issues in the titles run, only _Catwoman_ wasn't mentioned either time, and he was really enthusiastic about the tie in John Layman wrote for _Detective Comics_ "Zero Year".




> Thoughts on Didio aside, not having Catwoman forced into a ridiculous crossover is fine by me.  I prefer my stories self contained.


Mostly this.

----------


## Shimbo

> Thoughts on Didio aside, not having Catwoman forced into a ridiculous crossover is fine by me.  I prefer my stories self contained.


I agree. I think Valentine is weaving a great story and I would hate to have it interrupted by some inconsequential tie-in. That being said, it's interesting that instead of taking up an issue in each books' regular series, the tie-ins are separate one shots. I definitely prefer this new approach to tie-ins in the Bat office. Keep the main books creator driven with little editorial interference, please! Especially this gem of a book.

I am also overjoyed that it seems Ms. Valentine is staying on after Convergence! I just wonder where she'll take Selina next.

----------


## CatBoy

> Has anybody read Catwoman/Wildcat or Catwoman/Vampirella? I found both on eBay for under 5 each, so I got them. Never hurts to expand the collection a bit!


I have BatGlam, just super-fun 90s Catwoman cheesecake, I really love Catwoman/Vampirella because it was Chuck Dixon as writer, Jim Balent as penciller, and Jimmy Palmiotti as inker - so it was the current team's take on a Vampirella story with Catwoman added in.

Catwoman/Wildcat... it's been awhile - Chuck Dixon and Beau Smith were the writers, and Sergio Cariello was the artist. It was pretty fun if I remember correctly. I really should reread the 90s books! It's just hard because after the new52 started, I have so many books on my pull list compared to the pre52.

Do you have Catwoman plus Scream Queen? It's another crossover in the 90s from a team member of the "Scare Tactics" comic book? I don't know, it's been awhile since I read it - I just remember that was the other crossover one-shot that came out during that time.

----------


## Michael24

> And, finally, one of my other favorite artists Francesco Francavilla's Selina:


That's freakin' awesome!! I love it! Now I want to see a Francavilla-drawn Selina book.




> Has anybody read Catwoman/Wildcat or Catwoman/Vampirella?


Wasn't aware of that, but a book with Catwoman _and_ Vampirella, and they're drawn by Jim Balent? I must find a copy immediately!  :Big Grin:

----------


## CatBoy

> Wasn't aware of that, but a book with Catwoman _and_ Vampirella, and they're drawn by Jim Balent? I must find a copy immediately!


Yeah, I remember it being pretty epic when I was a kid.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah, I remember it being pretty epic when I was a kid.


Holy boobs Batman  :Embarrassment:

----------


## CatBoy

> Holy boobs Batman


If there's one thing you can trust with 90s Catwoman plus any era of Vampirella is... Boobs.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Sales are out for #37 + Annual 2




> 105 	Catwoman 	37 	$2.99 	DC 	*25,154*





> 147 	Catwoman Annual 	2 	$4.99 	DC 	17,056


Down by about 1k from the previous month, unfortunately.  :Frown:  Hope this isn't a trend.

I don't see why they didn't just cancel and relaunch under Valentine, though I suppose that could still be on the table. I'd hate to see it slowly slip back down to Nocenti's numbers for lack of proper promotion.

----------


## Deniz Camp

25,000K is still healthy enough though. Above 20,000 K is rock solid, especially with strong reviews (ie, good chance for highish trade sales) and a novelist background (again, more the book market). 

I suspect we'll get a good run from Valentine, and also that the post-Convergence relaunch will make an effort to do something shocking and big to increase sales a bit. 

Additionally, I'm hoping her inclusion at the Bat-summit means an expanded role for her in the Bat-line. I'd love for her to be included in the next "Batman Eternal" writing team, or for her to get a book to replace one of the canceled Bat titles (Batwoman, Arkham Manor, etc). My gut says that Rucka is coming back to write Batwoman, but if not I would not mind seeing Valentine take that book on at all. Otherwise I'd be happy to see her on pretty much anything.

----------


## CatBoy

DC Comics Designer Action Figures is Releasing a Line of Figures designed by Jae Lee!

And we're getting another Catwoman figure:





The only thing that would be even more awesome is if they released a Jae Lee Selina Kyle Kingpin Action Figure!

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## CatBoy

I just want to take a moment to appreciate Tim Sale's Selina. 

One of, if not my absolute, favorite portrayals of Miss Kyle - beautiful, cunning, and one step ahead... with some mighty dangerous curves.







Thanks FYBC for the edit.

----------


## spark627

What are everyones thoughts on the book right now? I gave up, I didn't buy this weeks issue. I love the idea of the story and this change but the story is slow and I often feel like I'm missing something.

----------


## LostinFandom

> What are everyones thoughts on the book right now? I gave up, I didn't buy this weeks issue. I love the idea of the story and this change but the story is slow and I often feel like I'm missing something.


I hated the idea of this storyline and I still do. I've read without buying most of Valentine's issues and the online I liked was the Annual.  I have to think that might be because it wasn't about Selina Kyle.  (There are other things, like I think the historical figures quoting works better in story taking place over months than one over hours).

Frankly I've been kind of fascinated by how much more open fans here have been to Catwoman as crime boss than Black Cat as crime boss.  I have some theories as to why (Catwoman is "supposed to be" as an noir character, and Black Cat Crime boss pretty much rejects her relationship with Spider-Man while Catwoman-Kingpin is as tied to Batman as ever) but still find it weird.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Selina had a good showing this week in both Eternal and her own book. I really liked her interactions with Steph and it so reminded me of their encounter during War Game. I really hope that Steph and Selina form some sort of relationship after this. 






> I hated the idea of this storyline and I still do. I've read without buying most of Valentine's issues and the online I liked was the Annual.  I have to think that might be because it wasn't about Selina Kyle.  (There are other things, like I think the historical figures quoting works better in story taking place over months than one over hours).
> 
> Frankly I've been kind of fascinated by how much more open fans here have been to Catwoman as crime boss than Black Cat as crime boss.  I have some theories as to why (Catwoman is "supposed to be" as an noir character, and Black Cat Crime boss pretty much rejects her relationship with Spider-Man while Catwoman-Kingpin is as tied to Batman as ever) but still find it weird.


I love this storyline even if it is a bit weird for new 52 Selina or generally post-Brubaker Selina. It would have been better if there had been more character development for Selina prior to the change, but with Nocenti's run the character growth was pretty few and far between and mostly just situational. Now one could argue that Eternal should have progressed Selina more, but it already had several characters and storylines going on at once. Any more and it would have been a flop, tbh. Personally, I would have preferred the Kingpin/origin redux to be fully explored in Eternal before the change occurred in her own book. 

The main issue (if you can call it that) I have with Valentine's story is how "tight" it is. It is so strictly Selina's POV and everything is in conjecture to her and her movements, which is fine for a 6 issue arc, but I wonder how Valentine will work in long-form storytelling. The book needs to open up more and to interject the narrative of other characters into the story once in awhile. Eiko was a good start, but I would like to see Antonia's POV or even the lawyer (whose name I've forgotten).  It adds a new layer to the book and to Catwoman's "world" when it does incorporate other people as something other than pawns or background characters.

----------


## godisawesome

Eternal seems to be a bit more of a fun Catwoman right now, while her solo is dead serious and introspective. I'd prefer a more consistent middle ground for both, but both are enjoyable in their own way.

My biggest complaint is that I wanted to see how Selina and the Calabreses managed to claw their way to the top of the food chain. In Eternal, they at least suggested she used her thievery to corner the casino market. I kind of wanted to see what moves she had to make to prove herself to other capos as being too much of a hastle to oppose.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

I think Eternal is dropping too much info about Selina's way to the top - by the wayside. The last time we saw her as "Catwoman" was when she saw her old man in prison and told him she was taking over as Catpin. Then some issues later she's already firm in her role as Catpin. The writers skipped over point B, they went straight from point A to point C.

I understand that her solo is focusing a bit more on how she manages the family and her new role, but again no idea how she got there so fast. Not even how she met her cousins. So weird. The Eternal writers and editors really should have done better with that.

Then again these are the same people who gave Steph a cool, custom-made suit right out of the gate.

----------


## evangelionofasgard

oh god, Rafa Sandoval's Art on Catwoman was so good, why the hell could the writing have not been better!

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I think Eternal is dropping too much info about Selina's way to the top - by the wayside. The last time we saw her as "Catwoman" was when she saw her old man in prison and told him she was taking over as Catpin. Then some issues later she's already firm in her role as Catpin. The writers skipped over point B, they went straight from point A to point C.
> 
> I understand that her solo is focusing a bit more on how she manages the family and her new role, but again no idea how she got there so fast. Not even how she met her cousins. So weird. The Eternal writers and editors really should have done better with that.
> 
> Then again these are the same people who gave Steph a cool, custom-made suit right out of the gate.


Stuff like that's never bothered me, honestly.

To me it was like "Selina's book was going in a terrible direction, now it's not, be happy." and that's all I needed. I'm just not as big on continuity as a lot of other readers, I think.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

(Plus Eternal has a problem with pacing things out for way too long, so I was personally kinda glad that Selina's arc got resolved so quickly.)

----------


## CatBoy

> Stuff like that's never bothered me, honestly.
> 
> To me it was like "Selina's book was going in a terrible direction, now it's not, be happy." and that's all I needed. I'm just not as big on continuity as a lot of other readers, I think. 
> 
> (Plus Eternal has a problem with pacing things out for way too long, so I was personally kinda glad that Selina's arc got resolved so quickly.)


I agree. I completely understand the frustration of not being able to see Selina's rise to Kingpin, and my bigger frustration is that Selina's new origin of being a Calabrese was rushed on to us, with no _real_ explanation. But, at the same time the current arc of Catwoman is so phenomenal - and I respect that it's in a forward motion. As far as any of the remaining pieces that need to be explained - it would be great if we got a third Annual to flesh it out some more.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

That last page of #38 is what i cared most about from selina previous new 52 origin.  I'm so glad it's being put into play now.

Although I did like the notion of a Russian Selina.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I think Eternal is dropping too much info about Selina's way to the top - by the wayside. The last time we saw her as "Catwoman" was when she saw her old man in prison and told him she was taking over as Catpin. Then some issues later she's already firm in her role as Catpin. The writers skipped over point B, they went straight from point A to point C.
> 
> I understand that her solo is focusing a bit more on how she manages the family and her new role, but again no idea how she got there so fast. Not even how she met her cousins. So weird. The Eternal writers and editors really should have done better with that.
> 
> Then again these are the same people who gave Steph a cool, custom-made suit right out of the gate.


I would have thought the Catwoman Annual would be the perfect book to delve into that. Was it not addressed there?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I'd blame Scott Snyder before I'd blame DiDio. Snyder has remarkably little interest in Catwoman/Selina. (Every other Bat writer used her in a speaking role in the 2.5 years he was writing _Batman_ before he did, and that was to announce Selina would no longer be Catwoman. Also if you look at his interviews after the Death of Family and Zero Year tie ins he goes on about how they included some of the best issues in the titles run, only _Catwoman_ wasn't mentioned either time, and he was really enthusiastic about the tie in John Layman wrote for _Detective Comics_ "Zero Year".
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly this.


It's wierd. When he gets asked what villain he wants to write, he's said Selina quite a few times. 

Maybe Didio's not allowing him to have Selina on the book. I agree with BatGlamorous. My money's on Didio having a bias against Catwoman. He's shown it before with the Women of DC poster. Adam Hughes had to fight to keep her in.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I think Eternal is dropping too much info about Selina's way to the top - by the wayside. The last time we saw her as "Catwoman" was when she saw her old man in prison and told him she was taking over as Catpin. Then some issues later she's already firm in her role as Catpin. The writers skipped over point B, they went straight from point A to point C.
> 
> I understand that her solo is focusing a bit more on how she manages the family and her new role, but again no idea how she got there so fast. Not even how she met her cousins. So weird. The Eternal writers and editors really should have done better with that.
> 
> Then again these are the same people who gave Steph a cool, custom-made suit right out of the gate.


Thank you, I thought I'd missed an issue somewhere! Eternal's pace is all over the place... We just went from her deciding to step up as Gotham's crime boss to her actually being at the spot we first saw her back in Batman #28 without any real development. And the Annual didn't even deal with any of it, really.

I'm loving Selina's status right now, but it's kind of a disappointment not to get the whole story.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

I don't think there's any real bias from Snyder or Didio about Selina. Remember both the  Death of Family and Zero Year  were both one-off stories that held no true importance to the event or Catwoman. And some of the crossovers Catwoman had were because Nocenti volunteered to write an issue or arc (e.i. Gothtopia), so that made it even less important in the grand scheme of things. I think the Court/Night of Owls was the one of the few decent crossover tie-in that was beneficial to the event and to catwoman. 

Just because Snyder hasn't really gotten the chance to write Selina much - doesn't mean he dislikes the character. It just means there are other characters & other stories that are his priority right now. 

Honestly, it's not like she's really been that involved in other Bat-books anyway. 1 issue of B&R, 1 small cameo in The Dark Knight, here&there in Batman/Superman, sporadic usage Eternal, and I don't even think she has been in detective comics, outside the Gothtopia crossover, yet. 

This just reminds me of the 90's era Catwoman where she was a part of the bat-fam titles, but she wasn't really forced interact with them all the time.  I actually prefer it that way. She will always be deeply connected to Batman/Bat-Fam, but she isn't dependent on them to survive and thrive as a character.

----------


## heyevaxx

@chipsnopotatoes
I knew Dan Didio was anti Cassandra Cain, but also Catwoman? I know the note below says Dan's reasoning was Catwoman's series was about to end and that "we should give her a rest."

You gotta be kidding me; Catwoman is a Batman #1 character fer crying out loud! Of course she must be included in "The Real Power Of The DC Universe" poster.

Adam Hughes is great (with the exception of his ridiculously large Selina boobs) and he's all the more great now that I know he disobeyed orders and included Selina as the 11th woman in DC's top 10 woman. Very clever and appropriate putting her in a black dress at the edge of the group.

Good for him and good for us!


*http://bit.ly/1BGb5s7 [z3 dot invisionfree dot com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/ar/t2580.htm]*
Title: Dc Nation: #118
Description: June 18, 2008

Sometimes your boss is wrong. Yup, as amazing as it sounds, an DiDio, architect of today's DC Universe, the man who gets up in front of a million fans at conventions across the globe, my boss, was wrong.

Here's the back story: I had asked artist extraordinaire Adam Hughes to do the illustration for a new poster, one that would showcase DC's rather formidable female heroes. Although Adam is a super talent and can draw pretty much anything, he's known as the King of Curves, the Sultan of Sex, the Guru of Gals. Simply put, he draws the best darn women in comics history. The poster was to show DC's top ten Superheroines dressed not in their familiar spandex costumes, but rather in white evening gowns. "The REAL Power of the DC Universe." Good, classy concept for a poster, huh?

I e-mail Adam the list of gals Dan wants on the poster and he immediately calls me on the phone. The list spotlights our top female characters, especially those that have new books coming out soon or are featured in major upcoming DC storylines. Adam brings up an odd omission to the list: "Um, you forgot Catwoman." No, I say, Dan hadn't actually forgotten Selina; he just felt since her monthly series was ending in a few months, maybe we should give her a rest and let her sit this one out. Adam and I agreed that the seminal DC badgirl just HAD TO be included in the shot otherwise something, or someone, would so obviously be missing. I beg and plead and try to bribe Dan, but no, he doesn't feel the public wants to see her for a while.

Adam, who has drawn the last few years' worth of Catwoman covers, and who has cultivated a great affection for the character, mumbles and grumbles and tells me how silly and just plain wrong-minded we are. He says he'll draw the poster image, but he's doing so under protest.

Over the course of the next month, I try to get Dan to bend on his "no Catwoman" decision, but to no avail. He stands firm.

When Adam sends in the finished illustration, all ten gals have been lovingly rendered, making the poster image an absolute wonder to behold. But there in the corner stands an eleventh character, dressed in black, the defiant Selina Kyle. Adam included a note with the artwork saying that he just couldn't help himself, so he added Catwoman off to the side, just in case we changed our minds at the last minute. If not, she could be easily Photoshopped out of the image. At that exact moment, Dan walks into my office, looks at the artwork and says, "Wow, Adam did a great job. I'm glad he included Catwoman, because I was having second thoughts about her not being in the group."

It's never wise to strangle your boss, but it's OK to think about it from time to time.

Mark Chiarello
Art Director

----------


## SickAlice

That is unreal. Seriously. Beautiful art piece BTW, that was my wallpaper for nearly a year.
adam-hughes-the-real-power-of-dc-universe.jpg

----------


## Punisher007

The writers also skipped over showing how Steph got her very professional-looking costume.  It seems like they either don't know exactly how to get from Point A to Point B with some of this stuff, or they just don't think that it's important, so they skip it.  I personally disagree with that.  If you're going to shake up the status quo by making Selina the Queenpin of Gotham, which is a really big change, then you should show us HOW that happened.  Plus it's just lazy writing in general.

----------


## tbgo

DC should really do an issue of Batman in the world of Tim Burton. I would love that. The Convergence issue intrigues me. I hope DC plans more events like this.

How did they talk Balent coming back to do a variant cover? I thought he was miles away from DC now. Could this be the start of him penciling another comic for them?

----------


## tbgo

> Between a local comic shop and online, I was able to pick up the first Catwoman series over Christmas and finally got a chance to read it last night. I know there are some vocal haters of it here, but I have to say that I enjoyed it. There were a few times (especially early on) where I thought the story was a little jumpy, like there were some panels missing that could have smoothed out scene transitions, but overall I liked it quite a bit.


The Burton film took some inspiration from them.

----------


## tbgo

> I totally called this a day before the story broke! So excited to see Mikel Janin's Selina as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Just saying. And can I just say the cover of the Convergence: Catwoman #1 doesn't really work for me...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a bad-looking cover per se, but it's not rocking my socks. I do love all the cats though.


Regardless, this is the costume I wish would make a return. I don't mind the goggles if she's doing something that requires them, but a costume based around them just looks stupid.  It needs to be streamlined.

----------


## Punisher007

Not really, I quite like her current costume.  I like it more than that thing, oh and no heels of any kind thank you.

----------


## BatGlamorous

It's weird to think that she's had her current costume for almost 15 years now. That's probably the longest she's been in one suit since the Golden Age dress (which I also love and wish Catpin would wear instead of that mopey suit).

I still think that if they do change it, they should draw inspiration from BTAS. Something sleek and simple like a black bodysuit with white out "Batman" eyes.

----------


## CatBoy

> It's weird to think that she's had her current costume for almost 15 years now. That's probably the longest she's been in one suit since the Golden Age dress (which I also love and wish Catpin would wear instead of that mopey suit).
> 
> I still think that if they do change it, they should draw inspiration from BTAS. Something sleek and simple like a black bodysuit with white out "Batman" eyes.


I love the current costume, but it definitely could be tweaked. Like the current Eiko version with the motorcycle jacket (sans ski goggles), but I also think even more simplification could happen.

I absolutely adore the New Batman Adventures Catwoman costume (and I love the sleek short hair style that was before its time), the closest iteration we got in comics was Tim Sale's Catwoman: When in Rome, when Selina had to make up a quick costume on the fly:



I think going back to the Balent costume would be a step in the wrong direction (even though I love it).

----------


## brainticket

Catwoman is getting a new artist this summer, David Messina. Source

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> Catwoman is getting a new artist this summer, David Messina. Source


I liked him on ultimate comics X-Men. Pretty excited to see him draw selina.

----------


## Cel

I'd definitely be happy to see Messina doing the art chores on _Catwoman_.

----------


## Ticklefist

Just Googled him. That's way more what I like to see out of a super hero comic book.

----------


## CatBoy

> Just Googled him. That's way more what I like to see out of a super hero comic book.


But, I don't look at Catwoman as a _super-hero comic book_. His art is definitely nice to look at, but I like a little bit more style - Garry Brown, albeit not my favorite, has a sense of style to his art. I like David Messina's art an iota more than Pat Oliffe, but to me it's in the same vein. His art almost reminds me of Rafa Sandoval a little.

But, I still have a ton of faith in Genevieve Valentine, she posted a statement from her blog:




> DC announced its June titles today; among them is the note that I will be continuing as the writer of CATWOMAN.
> 
> It wasn’t a sure thing – I was taken on initially for a single arc, and the future was conditional. It was a big change for her, in terms of both situation and tone, and we all knew it was going to be a leap of faith for readers. As such, I have even more reason to be completely thrilled at the fan response to this take on Selina, which has been above and beyond anybody’s expectations, and I can’t wait to continue her adventures. Thanks so much to everyone who’s been reading it for making this possible.


Keeping my fingers and toes crossed that Jae Lee is still doing covers! At least we know Selina will still dress well...

In other news, thank god Ming Doyle is a part of DC now! I'm so excited for her and have been following since the early PR days. Would have been awesome if she was part of the new Catwoman team - but she's getting a bigger opportunity to launch not one, but TWO new books: as co-writer on Constantine: the Hellblazer with James Tynion IV, and artist on Dark Universe.

----------


## Stormcrow

I'm delighted that Valentine will be staying on as writer! Not really familiar with Messina, but googled his work and it looks all right. Hope he can adapt to the noir tone of the book, unlike Oliffe whose work seemed terribly out of place in some places through the Annual.

----------


## 16 Bit

So happy to hear Genevieve Valentine is staying on.

----------


## Stormcrow

Noticed something interesting on Genevieve Valentine's Twitter, she wrote "_I'm so excited to spend some more time with Selina (and as Catwoman! Eee!)_". So could we be seeing Selina back in costume? I sure hope so, she can fulfill both the crime boss and costumed roles at the same time or combine them in a Batman '66 kind of way.

The one sore not I'd have for Valentine's run is that Eiko character, she's just not grown on me at all and just screams inconsequential.

----------


## godisawesome

I've got then sneaking suspicion that Eiko's going to be sacrificed as an example of how bad the situation has gotten and as karma for her father. Either that, or she'll get injured and give Selina an oppurtunity to play her own imposter.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> 94 	Catwoman 	38 	$2.99 	DC 	*22,386*


Sales down again in January. Not _bad_ sales, but down. I still think they should have went ahead and relaunched with a new #1 like Suicide Squad and Teen Titans, but alas. Hopefully it will plateau soon and start to rise once Messina is put on the book in June.

Again, I'm not doom saying, I just wish the numbers were rising instead of falling. Either way it's doing a whole lot better than it was, both quality and sales wise.  :Big Grin:

----------


## LostinFandom

Ms. Valentine on shipping (in television)

----------


## CatBoy

> *CONVERGENCE: CATWOMAN #2*
> 
> Written by JUSTIN GRAY
> 
> Art by RON RANDALL
> 
> Cover by CLAIRE WENDLING
> 
> Variant cover designed by CHIP KIDD
> ...


Way more in to this cover than #1.

----------


## Thirteen

> Catwoman is getting a new artist this summer, David Messina. Source


A quick look around for samples of Messina's work and I'm very hopeful.  
He has a solid style with clear storytelling and heavy moody use of dark and light in uncolored art.  Add in a talented colorist and I think we have a winner for Selina.  

Also his aptitude for photo referencing for likeness of actors in licensed properties (Star Trek, Angel, True Blood) is such that he is able to capture the likeness without having his artwork look traced from a photo or stiff.  Not an easy feat.  And it suggests that Writer Valentine's extensive style guide for fashions will not be lost upon Messina, as many would argue is the case with the current artist.

messina trek.jpgmessina trek color.jpg
messina bounce.jpg

----------


## Michael24

Announced on their Facebook Saturday, the Catwoman Vinyl Vixen is coming in March.  :Smile: 



According to people who have already bought the Hot Top exclusive Harley Quinn, the figures are about 8 inches tall and $29.99.

----------


## BatGlamorous

29.99!!! Gotta love licensed merch, I guess. :P

---

You know what? I really want an Andy Diggle/Jock arc. That would be awesome.

Some of their recent work together:
http://www.thegeekgirlproject.com/wp...pshot03_p3.jpg
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com.../snapshot2.jpg
https://futureshockd.files.wordpress...eg?w=490&h=650

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Andy Diggle and Jock would definitely bring some superb action scenes to a Catwoman title, but I don't know what Andy Diggle's current stance on working with DC is since his last published work was his Action Comics run... where he quit before his first and last issue was even published.

----------


## Michael24

Two new Catwoman busts from Toy Fair. I really like that *BTAS* one, but damn. First quarter of 2016?! Maybe that's a misprint.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Andy Diggle and Jock would definitely bring some superb action scenes to a Catwoman title, but I don't know what Andy Diggle's current stance on working with DC is since his last published work was his Action Comics run... where he quit before his first and last issue was even published.


Just as long as he doesn't want to give Selina a robotic arm.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I haven't kept up with it in a while, but I see a lot of Selina in Celia from Thief of Thieves, also written by Diggle. I think he could write her pretty well.

http://www.comicbooked.com/wp-conten...TheivesGTA.jpg

----------


## Abishai100

*Fashion Measurements*




Is Catwoman both inspiring and being inspired by modern thin-slinky look fashions?


 :EEK!: 

Waif (Urban Dictionary)

fashions.jpg catwoman.jpg

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Is the Catwoman figure from TAS a good buy? I've heard a lot of bad things about the quality of the first wave, but they look well sculpted so I'm tempted to get them.

----------


## The Kid

How is the current run? Is it worth getting into?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> How is the current run? Is it worth getting into?


Yes, very much worth getting into.

----------


## Vworp Vworp

> How is the current run? Is it worth getting into?


If you're looking for a good crime/underworld story, yeah.

If you're looking for a good Catwoman story, not so much.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> How is the current run? Is it worth getting into?


If you like eating gruel month after month. That said 35 was a great palate cleanser following the long and terrible run of Ann Nocenti.

----------


## BatGlamorous

It's an improvement, but definately a unique take on Selina and not for everyone. People have described it as very "Vertigo", so I'd try it if you've enjoyed Vertigo/True Crime titles in the past.

---

----------


## Red_11

> How is the current run? Is it worth getting into?


Very much so.  I'd even go so far as to say it's one of the best books DC is putting out at the moment.

----------


## The Kid

So I should start with the current team?

----------


## TGW

> So I should start with the current team?


I would recommend starting with the new creative team if you're just getting into the book. If you follow Eternal, you'll have an idea of what you're getting into with Catwoman.

----------


## BatGlamorous

01. Jim Balent era
02. Batman Returns
03. BTAS/TNA
04. Golden Age
05. Darwyn Cooke era
06. Batman '66
07. Year One
08. TDKR
09. Injustice : Gods Among Us
10. Silver Age
11. Bronze Age
12. Catwoman (2004)

My personal rank for her various costumes. I can't think of any other comic book characters that have had nearly as many!  :EEK!:

----------


## Michael24

> 


Another NY Toy Fair reveal? Man, looks like us Catwoman fans are going to have some nice products to pick up this year.




> 01. Jim Balent era
> 02. Batman Returns
> 03. BTAS/TNA
> 04. Golden Age
> 05. Darwyn Cooke era
> 06. Batman '66
> 07. Year One
> 08. TDKR
> 09. Injustice : Gods Among Us
> ...


Wow. Good work and ranking. I especially agree with the Top 2.  :Smile:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I like the BTAS version a lot more than the TNBA one.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

The Jim Balent purple suit is legit one of Selina's best costumes, if not THE best.  It's a shame so many people hate it because it's associated with Jim's incredibly 90's art style.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> 


:3

10chars

----------


## Michael24

> I like the BTAS version a lot more than the TNBA one.


Yeah, I found most of the re-designed characters for *TNBA* disappointing, especially the ladies. They went from looking like women in *BTAS* to little stick-thin pixies in *TNBA*.

----------


## Celgress

Great multidimensional character, especially in the more recent media, I've always loved Catwoman.  :Cool:

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

http://www.newsarama.com/23655-catwo...e-costume.html





> *Nrama*: When you pick up again in June, does the tone and style change at all?
> 
> *Valentine*: Well, with Selina back in the suit, I think we're going to be seeing a little more action from her, which I think will be a nice tie-in to her pre-Mafia days. And like the rest of the Bat-universe, we're shifting to point a little bit at what Batman himself will be going through at a major point, which in terms of style and tone gives us a lot of fun stuff to play with.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Hmm... so Selina is back in the suit after all. Interesting. I hope the mafia angle isn't completely done.

----------


## Stormcrow

She hinted before that we'd have Selina back in the suit, but I'm happy she's speaking a little more openly about it now. I still don't see why she got rid of it in the first place, _Batman Eternal_ didn't really fill the gaps in a satisfactory fashion.

And while Eiko is a nice foil to Selina, I don't care about her in the suit at all. And she proves Selina could be both a mob boss _and_ a costumed thief.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

I think Selina taking back the suit more or less feeds my suspicion of Eiko overthrowing her father and becoming the new Hasigawa leader.

----------


## Ticklefist

Looks like I missed my opportunity to ironically change my avatar to Sadface Selina.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on the recent "development" with Selina.  The one in issue #39 that is.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on the recent "development" with Selina.  The one in issue #39 that is.


I'm not bothered by it. [spoiler]Being bisexual myself, the representation in my favorite DCU character is nice. Someone brought up the fact that a _lot_ of female rogues end up being bisexual, which isn't a trend reflected in their male counterparts. It kinda makes you ponder the "why" factor. I just hope that her sexuality and feelings for Eiko are handled maturely and not exploited for male gaze, as bi and lesbian relationships in comics unfortunately tend to often be.[/spoiler]

As an aside, I've wanted a Batwoman/Catwoman crossover for a while so now that would be, uh, interesting.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

When I saw it my reaction was pretty much "Huh. Okay then." I've never really thought of Selina as bisexual before, at least compared to Ivy and Harley, but considering her character I think it fits well enough and it seems like it's to serve the story rather than just to gauge an audience reaction, which is good. Still see her primarily with Batman, but that's just me  :Wink: .

----------


## Michael24

My reaction was, "Between the mob boss angle and now this, DC is really striving lately to make me uninterested in one of my all-time favorite characters."  :Frown:

----------


## Ticklefist

My reaction: Nu52 Cawoman has a weakness for Asians. Wonder who will shoot this one.

----------


## SickAlice

She's an openly passionate person and master of her own emotions. It didn't even make me blink rather fit like a glove.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

My reaction was surprise to the kiss and surprise to how unsurprised I was about it.  I mean it's not like Eiko & Selina have been flirting with each other non-stop in this arc, but somehow it seems so natural and genuine for Selina to kiss another woman.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Interview on Comics Alliance is out. Excerpt:

http://comicsalliance.com/justin-gra...ckback=twitter




> ComicsAlliance: Even by comics standards, Catwoman has seen a lot of reinterpretation over the years. What Catwoman eras are you drawing on the most for this miniseries?
> Ron Randall: This is the 90′s era Catwoman, and the design of the character comes from those stories. I saw my task as to bring my own style of drawing and my own perceptions of Selina to that version of the character.
> Justin Gray: As Ron stated, this is the Jo Duffy, Jim Balent and Dick Giordano Catwoman that appeared in August of 93. They were the purple costume thief with a heart of gold stories.
> CA: Whats behind the decision to bring Kingdom Come Batman into this story?
> JG: When asked what groups of characters we would like to work with in advance I wanted Kingdom Come and Red Son, because those are not only recognizable and fantastic takes on the DC heroes, but also because I personally admire the work that was done on both.  I felt it was very important from a character and story standpoint that Batman and Catwoman should be together here.
> CA: What defines Catwoman, in your opinions? Is she a selfish thief, a reluctant hero, something in between?
> RR: Well, surely shes both. And other things as well. We are all selfish thieves and reluctant heroes, depending on whatever circumstances and pressures are at play in our worlds in the moment. With a character, you step onto very dangerous ground the moment you try to boil down their profile to a single, focused aspect. So, I think Selina can rise to an occasion or stoop to a low level depending on what stresses shes under. That keeps her alive and fascinating as a character to work with.
> JG: I think the best version of Catwoman takes into account that shes walking a fine line at all times between heroine and villainess, extremely confident in who she is, a woman that owns her sexuality in a way that no other female character in the DC universe does. Catwoman is very human, void of superpowers and yet she deals with and often confronts the same villains that Batman does and she does it without armor. Her relationship with Bruce is also one of the more complex and mature in comics.
> RR: I do think its fun and interesting to think of Selina as more of an improviser, someone figuring things out on the fly and learning on the job, so to speak, as a great contrast with Batmans deliberative, think-three-steps-ahead way of operating. That doesnt mean shes the amateur and hes the pro, its just a difference in temperaments and styles. I find that stuff juicy to play with.
> ...


Excited!

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Sound cool, but I still get nervous when someone tries to pull the "anti-hero" thing with Catwoman. I mean, don't get me wrong I loved the Brubaker run but Selina lost a lot of her joie de vivre in the transition from self-serving thief to anti-hero. It only got worse after Bru left. I spent many years just not really enjoying the character because she written as such a downer most of the time. 

I just would just love to see her, even if for a moment, go back to her Cheshire's grin-wearing, master thief who may do something nice if she feels like it.

----------


## tbgo

I didn't like Brubaker's Robin Hood deal. I don't think Catwoman has really been interesting since the 90s.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Sound cool, but I still get nervous when someone tries to pull the "anti-hero" thing with Catwoman. I mean, don't get me wrong I loved the Brubaker run but Selina lost a lot of her joie de vivre in the transition from self-serving thief to anti-hero. It only got worse after Bru left. I spent many years just not really enjoying the character because she written as such a downer most of the time. 
> 
> I just would just love to see her, even if for a moment, go back to her Cheshire's grin-wearing, master thief who may do something nice if she feels like it.





> I didn't like Brubaker's Robin Hood deal. I don't think Catwoman has really been interesting since the 90s.


I'm not a fan of Brubaker's Catwoman either. But Convergence Cats sounds much more like her 90s self even if she's a vigilante. I like Ron Randall's description of her being an improviser/quick thinker.

----------


## Ticklefist

I just learned that Calabrese is a type of broccoli. Totally reconciles how the comic isn't necessarily bad, but leaves a bad taste in my mouth anyways.

----------


## Ticklefist

> I'm not a fan of Brubaker's Catwoman either. But Convergence Cats sounds much more like her 90s self even if she's a vigilante. I like Ron Randall's description of her being an improviser/quick thinker.


Careful. The line between being an improviser/quick thinker and being Judd Winick Catwoman is rather thin.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> Careful. The line between being an improviser/quick thinker and being Judd Winick Catwoman is rather thin.


Is it, tho? Winick's Catwoman was _supposed_ to be young, reckless, hot-headed, and dangerously lacking common sense. That's what his entire run was about. He wasn't just extra bad at writing Catwoman. Winick's run was an inner look at the dangers of Catwoman's adrenaline addiction and live fast, die young lifestyle. I didn't like some of the stuff he wrote and I felt the pacing was pretty bad at some parts, but he delivered on what he & DC originally wanted for the character.  A book about a younger, more reckless Catwoman who is in the bizarre, middle-ground transition period from a rookie thief to a master thief.

Som unless another writer is purposely writing Catwoman suffering from her addictions and consequences of that addiction, I don't see how it could turn into Winick's nu52 Catwoman. I'd be more worried about some of the more vapid portrayals of Selina in the new 52, outside of Winick's area of control.

----------


## Ticklefist

> Is it, tho? Winick's Catwoman was _supposed_ to be young, reckless, hot-headed, and dangerously lacking common sense. That's what his entire run was about. He wasn't just extra bad at writing Catwoman. Winick's run was an inner look at the dangers of Catwoman's adrenaline addiction and live fast, die young lifestyle. I didn't like some of the stuff he wrote and I felt the pacing was pretty bad at some parts, but he delivered on what he & DC originally wanted for the character.  A book about a younger, more reckless Catwoman who is in the bizarre, middle-ground transition period from a rookie thief to a master thief.
> 
> Som unless another writer is purposely writing Catwoman suffering from her addictions and consequences of that addiction, I don't see how it could turn into Winick's nu52 Catwoman. I'd be more worried about some of the more vapid portrayals of Selina in the new 52, outside of Winick's area of control.


I guess I can take a minute to talk about Judd Winick Catwoman. Everything up to and including Lola's death was pretty well done and gave us exactly what you're talking about. Everything that happened after only served to ruin the character. Ruin any character actually. This isn't an issue of him writing Catwoman incorrectly, I'm of the opinion that such a thing isn't possible. No, he just wrote a comic book about a person I couldn't give a fuck about. Who wants to read a comic book about a person that doesn't change their ways after seeing their best friend tied to a chair with a bullet hole in their head?

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> I guess I can take a minute to talk about Judd Winick Catwoman. Everything up to and including Lola's death was pretty well done and gave us exactly what you're talking about. Everything that happened after only served to ruin the character. Ruin any character actually. This isn't an issue of him writing Catwoman incorrectly, I'm of the opinion that such a thing isn't possible. No, he just wrote a comic book about a person I couldn't give a fuck about. Who wants to read a comic book about a person that doesn't change their ways after seeing their best friend tied to a chair with a bullet hole in their head?



I'm kinda agree. I enjoyed the run mostly because it was an interesting take on Selina's obsessive "love" of the adrenaline rush, but I understand that take on the character is not enjoyed by others. 


I'm not sure what you mean by how Selina doesn't "change her ways" after Lola dies? Change her ways from being a thief to anti-hero, change her ways from being reckless to the selina we're previously familiar with, or change in some other way?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I guess I can take a minute to talk about Judd Winick Catwoman. Everything up to and including Lola's death was pretty well done and gave us exactly what you're talking about. Everything that happened after only served to ruin the character. Ruin any character actually. This isn't an issue of him writing Catwoman incorrectly, I'm of the opinion that such a thing isn't possible. No, he just wrote a comic book about a person I couldn't give a fuck about. Who wants to read a comic book about a person that doesn't change their ways after seeing their best friend tied to a chair with a bullet hole in their head?


The 90s Catwoman was never the self destructive hot mess that Judd Winick wrote. And I don't get the transition to master thief in his run. Sorry, but unlike the clever 90s Catwoman, she was stupid. Also had the maturity of a 13 year old trapped in a 20 something body.

Did Eternal ever explain the transition in her personality? Because she seems like a totally different person now. Come to think of it, every writer has a different take on her

Judd Winick - self destructive hot mess
Ann Nocenti - wacky and tacky
Geoff Johns - personality borrowed from Arkham City; knife stilletos from TDKR
Tim Seeley - pole dancing flirt prone to mood swings that Julia desperately wants to make out with. That fight scene there was sexual tension you know  :Wink: 
Genevieve - morose mob queen perpetually second guessing herself. Also, history buff (at least we know she can read)

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

There was never meant to be a full transition. DC promoted nu52 Catwoman as someone who is not a rookie but not yet the master thief we're familiar with all these years. She's still in that middle phase. Lol, I totally just got that Britney Spears song "not a girl, not yet a woman" stuck in my head.

Selina has been in flux, both personality & origin wise since the new 52 began. I blame the editors, tbh. It's their job to ensure that characters & storylines don't conflict with other things as much as possible. I think by the time Eternal came around, DC editorial just said do whatever with the character, lol. It's kinda obvious too. The first part of Eternal having a connection to Falcone, and also receiving a mysterious letter from her "father" who, at the time, she had no idea was.

Then later, not ony does she know who her father is but she's always known where he was located.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Origin wise:
Winick - orphaned by Russian mobster
Nocenti - grew up in group home with her brother. Russian stolen identity involving some secret agent who pushed her off a roof (how could we forget Catwoman 0)
Johns - stolen identity
Seeley - Selina Calabrese brought up by Lola (the only good thing about Winick's run), her fathers girlfriend 
Genevieve - Selina Calabrese with a brother who popped out of nowhere.

----------


## KurtW95

> Origin wise:
> Winick - orphaned by Russian mobster
> Nocenti - grew up in group home with her brother. Russian stolen identity involving some secret agent who pushed her off a roof (how could we forget Catwoman 0)
> Johns - stolen identity
> Seeley - Selina Calabrese brought up by Lola (the only good thing about Winick's run), her fathers girlfriend 
> Genevieve - Selina Calabrese with a brother who popped out of nowhere.


I wonder if there could be a real Selina Kyle out there in the New 52 who is not Catwoman, but has more in common origin-wise with Pre-Flashpoint Selina.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

> Origin wise:
> Winick - orphaned by Russian mobster
> Nocenti - grew up in group home with her brother. Russian stolen identity involving some secret agent who pushed her off a roof (how could we forget Catwoman 0)
> Johns - stolen identity
> Seeley - Selina Calabrese brought up by Lola (the only good thing about Winick's run), her fathers girlfriend 
> Genevieve - Selina Calabrese with a brother who popped out of nowhere.


I have a feeling that Johns and Winick/Nocenti origin were intertwined, but they just never went anywhere. In Matt Kindt's bonus story in JLA, we saw that Selina was still orphaned, with a sibling, but w/ the added part of the stolen identity. The stolen identity could have had something to do with Selina's amnesia and why she exist in any Gotham database.

----------


## CatBoy

> Nocenti - grew up in group home with her brother. Russian stolen identity involving some secret agent who pushed her off a roof (how could we forget Catwoman 0)


Off a roof and into a freaking tarp that she made her costume out of... I will never forgive Nocenti for that nonsense.

----------


## Ticklefist

> I'm not sure what you mean by how Selina doesn't "change her ways" after Lola dies? Change her ways from being a thief to anti-hero, change her ways from being reckless to the selina we're previously familiar with, or change in some other way?


Change her ways from being reckless.

----------


## Michael24

Just happened to see this and don't think it was already posted. A picture taken at New York Toy Fair reveals that a new Catwoman Pop! figure is coming as part of a *Batman: Arkham* line.

----------


## Punisher007

Hopefully she's in _Arkham Knight._

----------


## Stormcrow

Selina is back as Catwoman! This is what should have been from the start, I never got why she wasn't Catwoman anymore when she turned crime boss and I never bought Eiko in the role.

*CATWOMAN #41*
Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
Art by DAVID MESSINA
Cover by KEVIN WADA
THE JOKER Variant cover by JAVIER PULIDO
On sale JUNE 10 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
She's still Gotham's queen of crime - but now, in order to work all the angles, Selina Kyle is back as Catwoman!

----------


## Ticklefist

Welcome back, smirk.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Klarion the WitchBoy grows up to be Catwoman.

That is one seriously ugly Selina. 

I've seen so much better from Wada

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> Selina is back as Catwoman! This is what should have been from the start, I never got why she wasn't Catwoman anymore when she turned crime boss and I never bought Eiko in the role.
> 
> *CATWOMAN #41*
> Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
> Art by DAVID MESSINA
> Cover by KEVIN WADA
> THE JOKER Variant cover by JAVIER PULIDO
> On sale JUNE 10 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
> She's still Gotham's queen of crime - but now, in order to work all the angles, Selina Kyle is back as Catwoman!


She looks like Ellen Degeneres with black hair in that cover.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Selina is back as Catwoman! This is what should have been from the start, I never got why she wasn't Catwoman anymore when she turned crime boss and I never bought Eiko in the role.
> 
> *CATWOMAN #41*
> Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
> Art by DAVID MESSINA
> Cover by KEVIN WADA
> THE JOKER Variant cover by JAVIER PULIDO
> On sale JUNE 10 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
> She's still Gotham's queen of crime - but now, in order to work all the angles, Selina Kyle is back as Catwoman!



Sigh. It did not last long enough to me.

----------


## Ticklefist

> She looks like Ellen Degeneres with black hair in that cover.


Oh god I see it.

----------


## Ticklefist

Can't unsee it.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Oh god I see it.


lol, that was one of my first thoughts too.

Awesome that she's going to keep being Queenpin after Convergence. I like the dichotomy between Bruce/Selina where one is a philanthropic playboy and vigilante while the other is a crime boss and thief. Kinda showing two sides of the moral coin in both of their identities.

----------


## Stormcrow

> lol, that was one of my first thoughts too.
> 
> Awesome that she's going to keep being Queenpin after Convergence. I like the dichotomy between Bruce/Selina where one is a philanthropic playboy and vigilante while the other is a crime boss and thief. Kinda showing two sides of the moral coin in both of their identities.


Exactly! And this way Selina remains boss while still getting the chance to cause some mayhem as Catwoman, which is what Eiko has been doing instead for some reason. I'm glad they're finally letting Selina explore all sides of her, and hopefully we'll see her enjoy herself for once.

----------


## CatBoy

Obsessed. I've been championing Kevin Wada doing Catwoman covers since I've seen his work on She-Hulk. His aesthetic fits this style - and just watch what he does with Genevieve's fashion-cues in the future... 

And, I guess I'm alone in loving how fierce Selina looks on this cover. She looks like she means business.





And thank god she's Catwoman again.

----------


## Ticklefist

Kissing a woman one week, looking like Ellen Degeneres the next. 

Subtle.

----------


## Project Initiative Cascada

> Oh god I see it.





> Can't unsee it.





> Kissing a woman one week, looking like Ellen Degeneres the next. 
> 
> Subtle.


LOL. Sorry for putting that image in your mind! Just my observation. It's still a pretty good drawing though and I would like to get that variant cover. Also glad she's going back to being Catwoman. Just want to see her costume get a slight update.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Kissing a woman one week, looking like Ellen Degeneres the next. 
> 
> Subtle.


This was my second thought.

The timing couldn't have been more convenient.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Kissing a woman one week, looking like Ellen Degeneres the next. 
> 
> Subtle.


Now if we could just keep Batman out of the book, and possibly leave Gotham, then we'd really be getting somewhere.

----------


## Godlike13

Dammit, i see it too now.

----------


## trooper_thorn

Catwoman has always been one of my favorite characters but I have to admit that since the reboot I have not enjoyed any of the story arcs in her book and I've generally disliked the characterization.

The only recent portrayals that I have enjoyed have been her occasional appearances in books set on Earth-2, but unfortunately those are all flashbacks.

----------


## Abishai100

*Gotham Gun-Shy*



We like imagining Selina/Catwoman and Bruce/Batman engaged in romance or planning a heroism-appreciation wedding, since, of course, this unlikely duo represents the 'hospitality' of Gotham City.

Is that good news or an omen for Gotham?






 :EEK!: 

bat-cat.jpg

venue.jpg

----------


## Internet-man

Catwoman lesbian kiss, super weird. That isn't that character.
Love the current story though.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Catwoman lesbian kiss, super weird. That isn't that character.
> Love the current story though.


You have to squint really hard  to see that there was anything with Selina and Eiko, but whatever.  Given that they're being creamed by Marvel in market share, DC is desperate to appear hip and progressive.

Anyway, some first pencils from David Messina's Twitter
image.jpg
https://twitter.com/da_mess/status/576816301181652992

For some reason, this reminds me of a young Helen Mirren or Cate Blanchet with short hair. I love the earrings. Selina's in good hands.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Marvel has the lead up in dollar shares because they bumped all their shitty comics up to 3.99, there's like one left that's 2.99, so they're always going to be #1 in that regard. DC is doing fine on their own. They make mistakes, but at least they try (in their own way) to make up for it. Marvel just refuses to acknowledge their faults and yells at the fans for not liking their comics. One of the main reasons I've lost interest in their company even though I've been a major fan of theirs for over a 13 years.

And Catwoman's bisexuality isn't about Eiko or Batman, it's about Selina. Whether a relationship happens with Eiko or not is beside the point and I'm pretty sure Valentine alluded to that in her tumblr post. 

Generally speaking, I don't get what the big fuss is about confirming Selina as a canon bisexual. I mean, I've been reading CW comics and her appearances in other books since I was like 8. I always thought she was bi, tbh. She just has this comfortableness with both binary-genders that is so normal and in-character that it's hard to realize that it has never been official canon until now.

Btw, Catwoman #40 pencils by Garry Brown:

----------


## KurtW95

> Kissing a woman one week, looking like Ellen Degeneres the next. 
> 
> Subtle.


She does look like Ellen with shoe polish in her hair on that cover.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

No. Its not a price increase that's spurring Marvel Sales, it's the Star Wars franchise. Last month, Star Wars sold a million copies. this month its Darth Vader and Spider Gwen. 45% Marvel to vs 28% DC in Jan and Feb.

As for her being bi, maybe it's in the eye of the beholder. And Genevieve was the one who chose to make it a big deal knowing that confirmation would generate the buzz for the book (even the South China Morning Post carried it). Can't blame her. Book needs it since DCs doing squat for it.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Valentine didn't make a big deal out of it. I'm not sure where people are getting that idea from, but Valentine wrote a few words on the issue a full day and a half after it came out. Then a day after that the media outlets and dc picked up on the fan interest and began running the story.  It wasn't like it was heavily promoted to be this big omg moment in the series. And reading Valentine's words on the subject, it's pretty obvious that it won't be treated like a gimmick going forward. It'll be treated like its supposed to be, an extension of the characters sexuality.

----------


## LostinFandom

Eiko being Selina's new love interest is basically the only thing that has me interested in this run.  I've been thinking about it and I think this biggest problem with it is it falls into the abstract noun trap that the article I'm linking to quotes.  The power fights within the families are about power, not anything real. Similarly Selina's Gotham Renovation Project doesn't feel like anything.

I was really hoping that not having read Brubaker, Valentine could do a noir story that didn't feel like him.  But now I want to compare the two to explain why his story, also including a power struggle with Black Mask and a building in Gotham worked better.  First Black Mask wasn't going after Selina over something as vague as territory. Her vigilantism broke his using kids as drug mules operations.  Second, we had a specific project, a clinic/community center. Selina's motivations were tied to her ears on the street and desire to protect kids going through what she went through we don't have anything nearly as personable in this run.

The second biggest problem with this arc is most of the new characters are unmemorable and vaguely defined. No where in the three issues that he lived did I get the sense that Nick Calabrese was "Big on second chances" or "just wanted to live a normal life" and being told so after his death just feels wrong (If being a police informant was supposed to be a sign he wanted a normal life, then that's a major problem with the writing).  Worse, Mason and Forest Lane's hooks for investment was one was pro Black Mask and the other was against.  Before Mason claimed to be Selina's brother and Forest turned out to be working for the Penguin I'd forget about them as soon as I moved to another panel.  Assuming they are both in the new arc, they'll have the advantage of being more memorable there, but it was pretty un-engaging in the first arc.

----------


## CatBoy

> Generally speaking, I don't get what the big fuss is about confirming Selina as a canon bisexual. I mean, I've been reading CW comics and her appearances in other books since I was like 8. I always thought she was bi, tbh. She just has this comfortableness with both binary-genders that is so normal and in-character that it's hard to realize that it has never been official canon until now.
> 
> Btw, Catwoman #40 pencils by Garry Brown:


God, that art is everything - I'm really going to miss Garry Brown (again, I know I'm in the minority on this board) - his art does evoke emotion and with his own style. I'm excited to see David Messina does with Miss Kyle... but his art seems a little ho-hum for me. And, from what I've seen on his twitter - his Selina doesn't consistently look as great as she does in the art that ChipsNo posted. But, I'm always going to be cautiously optimistic - at least I know the covers will be fantastic and the story will definitely be there! 

I've been kind of watching this whole conversation of Selina being bisexual from a distance - because, like most, I definitely didn't see it coming. But, it doesn't really help or hinder the story for me though. I really don't see it going anywhere, but who knows? When I read it, I felt it was handled well, and didn't seem that salicious. But if Guillem March was still on art duty... well - I don't really need to finish that thought...

Harley Quinn was recently outed as bisexual by Amanda Conner, but that was something that seemed always implied with Poison Ivy. Being someone who is bisexual - I've always believed in the Kinsey school of thought that most people are indeed bisexual but on a sliding scale. That doesn't mean everyone acts on it - but, it just is what it is. I don't see Valentine's Selina as someone who needs to defined by her sexuality, I know I'm not. So for me, Selina's sexuality is neither here nor there - the only reason why I think it fuels so many fires is because of BatCat.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Sales numbers are out!

83	Catwoman	39	$2.99	DC	26,450

Nice rebound from last month. Where do we think she'll be at post convergence? Shall we take bets?

I'll be generous and go with 28k range because she's back as Catwoman.

Wada covers may or may not be a liability. I don't like this one. Selina looks positively demonic with that red suit and yellow background + sinister look on her face. And what the hell is that poker for?

----------


## tbgo

> Obsessed. I've been championing Kevin Wada doing Catwoman covers since I've seen his work on She-Hulk. His aesthetic fits this style - and just watch what he does with Genevieve's fashion-cues in the future... 
> 
> And, I guess I'm alone in loving how fierce Selina looks on this cover. She looks like she means business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And thank god she's Catwoman again.


Good god, this comic gets the worst artwork. DC is the worst.

----------


## KurtW95

> Kissing a woman one week, looking like Ellen Degeneres the next. 
> 
> Subtle.


ellencatwoman.jpg
10char

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

image.jpg
Bombshell doll coming out!

----------


## Stormcrow

> image.jpg
> Bombshell doll coming out!


I love it, that's probably my favorite of the Bombshells line because it's the one that I think could actually reflect the character in the comics instead of being an artistic interpretation (the other ones being Zatanna and I guess now Black Canary, given her new direction).

I would love to see _that_ Catwoman making her way into her solo, that's how I'd like to see her as Gotham's crime boss - sexy and fun and in charge - instead of the all-business, all-the-time super serious approach we have right now.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I love it, that's probably my favorite of the Bombshells line because it's the one that I think could actually reflect the character in the comics instead of being an artistic interpretation (the other ones being Zatanna and I guess now Black Canary, given her new direction).
> 
> I would love to see _that_ Catwoman making her way into her solo, that's how I'd like to see her as Gotham's crime boss - sexy and fun and in charge - instead of the all-business, all-the-time super serious approach we have right now.


Agreed! Somewhere between Eternal's cheesy who-runs-the-world Cats and her book's all work no play Selina. Everyone seems to have a fun book nowadays. Not sure why Catwoman is being left out of the party.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Bombshell doll coming out!


A mighty need. Too bad the bombshell statues start at like $150-$200.

February sales:



> 83 	Catwoman 	39 	$2.99 	DC 	26,450


The kiss definately helped. Up about 4k copies from January, and the second highest selling issue of Velentine's run so far!

----------


## Michael24

*Catwoman* #40 movie poster variant. (I _swear_ I saw this cover sometime last year, but it's apparently coming out next week with other DC movie poster variants.)



Based on a poster for *Bullitt* with Steve McQueen.

----------


## Abishai100

Catwoman is one of the rare comic book characters who keeps pets (cats of course).

What does Batman think of his 'bizarre ally' making emotional ties with the feline analogue of her 'vigilante identity' (in this case, cats)?

Do they share non-sarcastic 'cat-bat stories?'




 :EEK!: 


cats.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Well this thread's been buried far too long. I guess no one appreciates Catwoman nowadays and her book has been relegated to the minor leagues

This is the only Catwoman I enjoy, but I don't think it's even going to last till the end of the season




Camren is just so adorable. When asked about her dress, she's like "it's got pockets!". Such a happy unpretentious well adjusted teen. I hope they don't force her to grow up so soon.

----------


## Ticklefist

Not watching the show but hell yeah she's the best.

----------


## Confuzzled

Every time I see Camren, it never ceases to amaze me _how much_ she resembles a young Michelle Pfeiffer. Definitely a bright future ahead for her and I'm with chipsnopotatoes in hoping that Hollywood doesn't screw her up.

I agree with Stormcrow and Chips that The Bombshell variant perfectly captures the charisma and flamboyance that are essential for the character.

----------


## Londo Bellian

*looks up at the Camren vid*

Selina CALABRESE and Black-Cat-pin as they are now can rot in the Ignore pile of my mind until they get "fixed". Gotham!Cat I can seriously get into, if only I can watch actual eps here in the Philippines.

Why my interest in Gotham TV? I was sorta converted by this fluffy little thing called BABY BATCAT. And I too will go down with this ship.

What could Bruce be thinking when he made that leap?
From its highest peak to its lowest pit.

selina_kyle___cat_by_maryfgr23-d8byzrg.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> *looks up at the Camren vid*
> 
> Selina CALABRESE and Black-Cat-pin as they are now can rot in the Ignore pile of my mind until they get "fixed". Gotham!Cat I can seriously get into, if only I can watch actual eps here in the Philippines.
> 
> Why my interest in Gotham TV? I was sorta converted by this fluffy little thing called BABY BATCAT. And I too will go down with this ship.
> 
> What could Bruce be thinking when he made that leap?
> From its highest peak to its lowest pit.
> 
> Attachment 20936


Londo, is that your deviant art? Very awesome! Too bad you don't get the show in the Philippines. I assume you know where to watch the Selina clips.  Those are the only interesting parts of the show anyway.

And don't get too attached to GothamCat, I think they're going to align her with the version in the comics by the finale based on some of the stills that were released. Why they would follow what I deem to be the unsuccessful direction in the comics is because WB is fucked up as a company. Seriously Rupert Murdoch should have taken it over and fired the idiots running it.

----------


## Londo Bellian

No, that's NOT my DA. I'm registered but have no artwork. Still, the artist is apparently a Filipino like me.

And you're seriously not telling me that the teenage Cat is going to be a mob donna in the finale, so soon? That's messed up.

----------


## Michael24

> This is the only Catwoman I enjoy, but I don't think it's even going to last till the end of the season


Not sure what you mean by that. The show has already been renewed for a second season.  :Confused:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Not sure what you mean by that. The show has already been renewed for a second season.


I saw the stills from the finale. They pretty much ruin her.

Anyway, I'll always have this to remember this show by

----------


## Londo Bellian

Just so we're clear. The Gotham finale stills show Gotham!Cat becoming a mob boss like Calabrese? Wow, and I thought kiddie mafia bosses only happened in "Kattekyoushi Hitman Reborn".

Why dey doo dis?!

----------


## BatGlamorous

Eep, looks like I'm gonna have to get around to watching the finale sooner rather than later.




> Well this thread's been buried far too long. I guess no one appreciates Catwoman nowadays and her book has been relegated to the minor leagues


I feel like the Catwoman book has always been minor league, even back in the Brubaker days. It's not much of a problem for me, we've seen how shoehorning a unique book into The New 52 can turn sour (*cough*Andreyko*cough*). Hopefully DC editorial learned from how they basically murdered the former and will let Valentine's run do its thing for a while.

----------


## tbgo

> Eep, looks like I'm gonna have to get around to watching the finale sooner rather than later.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like the Catwoman book has always been minor league, even back in the Brubaker days. It's not much of a problem for me, we've seen how shoehorning a unique book into The New 52 can turn sour (*cough*Andreyko*cough*). Hopefully DC editorial learned from how they basically murdered the former and will let Valentine's run do its thing for a while.


Why do they insist on getting such a bad artist for this current incarnation?

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Why do they insist on getting such a bad artist for this current incarnation?


I'm withholding judgement until I actually see the new artist in action. I googled some of his stuff and he seems _alright_, if not a little bland.

As I've said before, I think Jock would be a perfect choice if they wanted to continue with Brown's tone (which I actually enjoy even if the art itself is meh), but alas. I think he's over at either Image or DH now anyway.

----------


## Stormcrow

With issue #42 it seems like we might be going back to some plots from Batman Eternal, here's hoping that Stephanie Brown can bring some lightness to the book.

As big of a fan I am of Kevin Wada, I'm really disappointed with both covers shown so far... They're just so bland and uninspired. Almost like a whole different artist.

At this point I'm just looking forward to see David Messina's artwork. But that Ben Caldwell Teen Titans GO! variant is the best thing ever after Pulido's Joker variant. I might just be getting the variants for these couple of issues.

*CATWOMAN #42*
Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
Art by DAVID MESSINA
Cover by KEVIN WADA
TEEN TITANS GO! Variant cover by BEN CALDWELL
On sale JULY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
Retailers: This issue will arrive in stores with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
Everything Selina Kyle accomplished as both crime boss and Catwoman is about to be ruined when Stephanie Brown makes a guest appearance!

----------


## joybeans

It would be fitting for Steph to go against Black Mask. Hopefully, with better results than last time.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Eep, looks like I'm gonna have to get around to watching the finale sooner rather than later.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like the Catwoman book has always been minor league, even back in the Brubaker days. It's not much of a problem for me, we've seen how shoehorning a unique book into The New 52 can turn sour (*cough*Andreyko*cough*). Hopefully DC editorial learned from how they basically murdered the former and will let Valentine's run do its thing for a while.


At some point pre Brubaker, she actually had better sales than WW.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

So DC acknowledged Catwoman's 75th with a tweet and a hashtag #Catwoman75

https://twitter.com/dccomics/status/591583638237609984

I guess that's all the appreciation she gets from these people. In any case, if you read the hashtag responses, favorite moments are all from Loeb/Sale When in Rome, Hush or the movies/tv.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I would have loved a Catwoman : Celebrating 75 Years HC like Joker and Batman got last year. Oh well.

I've been slowly collecting the 'Tec floppies of Trail Of The Catwoman, and it's just made me want Slam in the New 52 (for better or worse) that much more. I think he would be a great cast member for the ongoing queenpin arc.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

For the gamer fans, looks like she's gonna be in ArkhaM Knight





I think she looks better here than Arkham City -- minus the heavy eye makeup and pouty lips. Pretty but means business.

----------


## Michael24

Just posted yesterday. A special edition of DC All Access called "Top 6 Killer Catwoman Moments."  :Smile:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

More glimpses -- Catwoman teaser

----------


## Frontier

Awesome to finally have Catwoman confirmed to be in the game  :Big Grin: .

----------


## 16 Bit

Great! Was worried she wasn't going to be in it.

----------


## CatBoy

> More glimpses -- Catwoman teaser


I'm surprised you've been following so close with Arkham Knight, ChipsNo - was under the impression the Arkham-verse Catwoman wasn't your cup-of-tea ;-)

But, completely pumped about her inclusion in Arkham Knight - was definitely worried that she was just going to be a side notes like she was in Arkham Asylum or not even mentioned in Origins (yeah, she was a major player in Blackgate, but that doesn't count). And, her inclusion in the 'persons of interest' makes me think she's playable again! *crosses fingers and holds breath* I guess we'll find out in the trailer in 2 days!

Still, it was pretty bold for Rocksteady to hold this so close to their chest up until TWO MONTHS to the release! 



*REAL NAME:*
SELINA KYLE

*DESCRIPTION:*
An orphan who learned to survive on the mean streets of Gotham, Selina Kyle turned to thievery to survive. Determined to do it with style, she learned martial arts and trained in gymnastics to perfect her skills. 

Her criminal activities are tempered by a reluctant altruism, making her an inconstant villain and occasional hero. She maintains a complicated, adversarial relationship with Batman that frequently turns flirtatious and occasionally romantic. 

Little is known about her movements since the closure of Arkham City, but a string of high-profile burglaries suggests she is still at large in Gotham.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I'm surprised you've been following so close with Arkham Knight, ChipsNo - was under the impression the Arkham-verse Catwoman wasn't your cup-of-tea ;-)
> 
> But, completely pumped about her inclusion in Arkham Knight - was definitely worried that she was just going to be a side notes like she was in Arkham Asylum or not even mentioned in Origins (yeah, she was a major player in Blackgate, but that doesn't count). And, her inclusion in the 'persons of interest' makes me think she's playable again! *crosses fingers and holds breath* I guess we'll find out in the trailer in 2 days!
> 
> Still, it was pretty bold for Rocksteady to hold this so close to their chest up until TWO MONTHS to the release! 
> 
> 
> 
> *REAL NAME:*
> ...


I wasn't until it showed up on my Twitter feed. I immediately thought of you, dear.

Anyway, I like her face a lot more without the heavy eye make up. I can't place who she looks like.

----------


## godisawesome

I really liked the redesign for all three Sirens faces; Harley's got a fuller and youthful face, Ivy's got a classical beauty, and Catwoman's got a more lean and "athletic" face, I guess.

And one of the more fun things to just find in Origins were the Falcone/Kyle references, and the scratches outside her apartment.

And it sounds like the next trailer is going to reveal er as one of his allies and presumably on a roster of playable characters with Robin, Nightwing, and Azrael.

----------


## CatBoy

> I wasn't until it showed up on my Twitter feed. I immediately thought of you, dear.
> 
> Anyway, I like her face a lot more without the heavy eye make up. I can't place who she looks like.


Aw, well thanks ;-)

So, I instantly placed who I thought she looked like - and it would make purrfect sense for the Rocksteady team to base her face on the one and only Simone Simon who played Irena Dubrovna in Cat People and The Curse of the Cat People.



Simone Simon's face is so beautiful, and feline-esque which is why Val Lewton planned for someone with petite features like Simone Simon when he wrote Cat People - he was thrilled when they actually got her for the part.

----------


## Ticklefist

Arkham-verse Catwoman is best current Catwoman.

So hell yeah.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Arkham-verse Catwoman is best current Catwoman.
> 
> So hell yeah.


Gotham Catgirl is best current Catgirl

Btw, Tickle and Catboy, I heard from a friend they bypassed Paul Tobins pitch to write Catwoman in favor of Nocenti back in 2012  :Mad:

----------


## Ticklefist

> Gotham Catgirl is best current Catgirl
> 
> Btw, Tickle and Catboy, I heard from a friend they bypassed Paul Tobins pitch to write Catwoman in favor of Nocenti back in 2012


Which, coincidentally, was the last time I bought an issue.

-Or-

WTF are you kidding me?

----------


## BatGlamorous

That new render looks amazing. I wasn't a big fan of Ivy, so I was a little worried what they were going to do to Selina short of not including her at all. Pleasantly surprised.

It's a pipe dream for sure, but I hope Rocksteady makes a full-on Catwoman game sometime after they're done with Arkham.

----------


## CatBoy

The new "All Who Follow You" trailer has debuted. Not as Selina-centric as I wanted, but she still is looking great of when she is included. We'll see if she's making out with any thugs this time around...

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> The new "All Who Follow You" trailer has debuted. Not as Selina-centric as I wanted, but she still is looking great of when she is included. We'll see if she's making out with any thugs this time around...


That narrator's voice bugs me. He's not scary sounding plus he's obviously reading from a script.

----------


## Thirteen

> Just posted yesterday. A special edition of DC All Access called "Top 6 Killer Catwoman Moments."


Strongly disagree with the #1 spot as it was a storyline detail that totally put me off the book for a spell.  Maybe replace it (on the list if not in the top spot) with Selina's Deux ex Meow turn in the climax of the first JLA Prometheus story or her rematch with Zeiss from "War Games."
Catfile story is pretty hard to beat though.  :-)

----------


## tbgo

Do you think Catwoman is eventually going to be cast in the new DC universe film franchise?

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Do you think Catwoman is eventually going to be cast in the new DC universe film franchise?


Selina's definitely going to be in them one way or the other. It would be like having a Superman franchise without Lois Lane. As far as her ever donning the suit, I don't know. It might be a little soon considering TDKR, but then again they're re-using Joker for Suicide Squad already so who knows.



I picked this up today from the local FCBD sale. It's so shiny in person!

----------


## LostinFandom

> Do you think Catwoman is eventually going to be cast in the new DC universe film franchise?


As there's not being a Batman film on the upcoming slate, I have my doubts about it.

#6 of DC's Killer Catwoman story is from "Her Sister's Keeper" a story I will always call the worst Catwoman story.

----------


## Michael24

> #6 of DC's Killer Catwoman story is from "Her Sister's Keeper" a story I will always call the worst Catwoman story.


To each his own. I finally read it last fall after picking up all the singles and enjoyed it a lot.

----------


## LostinFandom

> To each his own. I finally read it last fall after picking up all the singles and enjoyed it a lot.


She had more agency and point of view in "Year One" which HSKN spun out from. It's on my list of often popular Catwoman stories that hearing a person likes gives me the idea that most of our tastes in Catwoman stories won't overlap.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Has anyone else read the Catwoman solo story in Showcase '93? It's very Frank Miller/Year One, although I forget who exactly penned it. A lot of solo Selina stories from the late 80s and early 90s had Miller and almost proto-Brubaker vibes, I wonder what made the tone shift so dramatically when she finally got her own series. They probably wanted a Selina that more closely reflected Burton's interpretation.

----------


## Stormcrow

Every time I see the DC Bombshells Catwoman, I just wish that was the Selina Kyle we were seeing as Gotham's crime boss. She's thriving in it and having fun!

Anyway, here's August's Bombshells variant and at least she'll most likely be featured in the digital first Bombshells series!

----------


## Ticklefist

> Every time I see the DC Bombshells Catwoman, I just wish that was the Selina Kyle we were seeing as Gotham's crime boss.


Right? Makes sense to everyone but the schmoes at DC Comics.

----------


## Michael24

Catwoman will get a 9.5" DC Comics Cover Girls statue this December. Pricey, though, at almost $100.

 

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/05...twoman-statues

----------


## Stormcrow

Multiversity Comics has revealed that Catwoman will be joining Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy once again for the HARLEY QUINN ROAD TRIP SPECIAL #1 coming in August!

I've missed this three together, and I'm sure Amanda Conner and Jimmy Palmiotti will do right by Selina.




> *HARLEY QUINN ROAD TRIP SPECIAL #1*
> Written by AMANDA CONNER and JIMMY PALMIOTTI
> Art by BRET BLEVINS and others
> Cover by AMANDA CONNER
> 1:25 Variant cover by BRET BLEVINS
> On sale AUGUST 26 • 48 pg, FC, $5.99 US • RATED T
> Retailers: This issue will arrive in stores with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> It’s the great American summer tradition, but you’ve never seen a road trip quite like this before! Harley, Ivy, and Catwoman are burning rubber across the U.S. of A! We recommend you all stay off the roads for the month of August, just to be safe.

----------


## Frontier

Amanda Conner Selina  :Big Grin: !

She's also rockin' that outfit  :Wink: .

----------


## BatGlamorous

CTW-Cv43-ef9f6.jpg




> CATWOMAN #43
> Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
> Art by DAVID MESSINA
> Cover by KEVIN WADA
> Bombshells Variant by DES TAYLOR
> On sale AUGUST 12  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T+
> Retailers: This issue will arrive in stores with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> While Selina investigates the mystery of whatever happened to Batman, Spoiler finds a mentor in Eiko. Plus: Antonia makes a dangerous bargain.


Looks like Steph might be a supporting character in Selina's book for a while. I'm down with that, even if it does give me War Games flashbacks.

----------


## joybeans

Maybe she'll get some payback.

----------


## LostinFandom

I'm surprised that it takes until issue #40 for there to be any mention of the change in who is Batman, especially as I think both Valentine and Snyder said Batman's new status would affect _Catwoman_ going forward. I'm wondering if it will be part of the preview story. (And I also wish that her reaction could be told in the pages of _Batman_.)

----------


## Frontier

Well, Jim being Batman, he's probably a lot less likely to give Selina the pass than Bruce used to do which will probably hamper her activities as Catwoman. And no amount of flirting will change that...

----------


## Stormcrow

The emotions I felt looking at the Bombshells variant cover for issue #43 could be described as the polar opposite of how I felt with the regular one...

----------


## joybeans

Not sure about the new artwork. On one hand, it's cleaner. On the other hand, the new looks don't really match up with the tone.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Well, Jim being Batman, he's probably a lot less likely to give Selina the pass than Bruce used to do which will probably hamper her activities as Catwoman. And no amount of flirting will change that...


In the last Bruce-Batman Bat Cat scene he said he wasn't going to be looking the other way anymore either...  At least Jim-Bats will likely be more gentle than Sp0ck was with Black Cat. (Low bar, I know, but I needed to point out that Black Cat's turn as crime boss started when Peter Parker wasn't Spudey, and Catwoman as crime boss encounters a non Bruce Bats after becoming Kingpin.)

I really don't get why anyone expected "fun crime stories" with the Catwoman as Kingpin plot. From when it was announced in _Batman_ #28 I thought "Snyder is giving Selina Talia's role in Morrison's run" and that was a tragedy. (In retrospect that comparison wasn't fair to Morrison. Love or hate what he did with Talia, he was at least interested in writing her, while Snyder isn't interested in writing Selina.). From Valentine's first interviews she was saying that her story was about Selina being her own worst enemy. This was never going to be about making the character happy and successful.

----------


## Stormcrow

The 8-page preview is up at Comixology!

The story was basically just a recap of the previous arc, so there really wasn't much to it. What interested me was David Messina's artwork, and it's actually pretty good. Keeping Lee Loughridge as colorist made for a seamless transition from Garry Brown, although I'm not sure if that's a good thing. Selina wearing heeled boots with her Catwoman outfit is a bit weird, but at least she now wore a sleek black dress to the party and not some ridiculous gown this time.

I'm still unsure if I want to continue with this book...

----------


## Stormcrow

Couple of Catwoman interviews: 

Newsarama talked to upcoming artist David Messina about his background and approach to the book. I like his idea of Gotham as noir flavored Chicago of the '50s.

And Comicosity spoke with Genevieve Valentine about the future arc. Something of note is that they "are assembling a slightly reluctant, ad hoc, super-hero team around her, as a dark mirror", wonder who that may be. So far there's Spoiler, Penguin, and possibly Killer Croc hanging around Selina.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Selina, Penguin, Steph, and Croc being a sort of "Justice League of the slums" is a pretty cool idea.

It does remind me of what Batwoman turned into during its final arc, though. I have more faith in Valentine that she'll make it work better anyway.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

No posting of Catwoman preview? That's sad.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/co...dc-comics-2015

----------


## tbgo

> No posting of Catwoman preview? That's sad.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/co...dc-comics-2015


It was already posted.

----------


## brucekent12

I'm excited for this arc. And I believe that it will soon tie in with Grayson, due to Helena B.

----------


## BatGlamorous

From DC's September solicitations (although technically November):




> *CATWOMAN: A CELEBRATION OF 75 YEARS HC*
> Written by BILL FINGER, ED BRUBAKER, DENNIS O’NEIL and others
> Art by BOB KANE, DARWYN COOKE and others
> Cover by ADAM HUGHES
> On sale NOVEMBER 18 • 400 pg, FC, $39.99 US
> Selina Kyle gets her due in this new collection celebrating her 75 year history! Don’t miss the stories that made Catwoman one of Batman’s greatest foes—and one of comics’ most memorable villains!


IT'S HAPPENING.



Interesting that they don't go into detail about which issues are collected though. Maybe they haven't decided?

----------


## joybeans

I don't think the solicits for 75th HCs usually list the issues collected.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Denny O'Neil? WTF has he done for Catwoman? He would be the last person that should be on her 75th anniversary

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/bra...ing-your-brand

----------


## BatGlamorous

After a quick wiki, I'm pretty sure this O'Neil issue is probably going to be collected. Comicvine says that it's the first re-appearence of her classic look after the (frankly terrible looking) green catsuit of the 60s, so it's historically significant.

----------


## Michael24

> From DC's September solicitations (although technically November):


That's awesome! Can't wait to see what issues get included.

Camren Bicondova posted this on her Facebook a few days ago. Young Selina is getting an action figure.  :Smile: 



I assume this is part of an as-yet-unannounced line of *Gotham*-based figures.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Maybe this could shed some light on what's going to be collected.

The Catfile is great by virtue of how..._incredibly 90s_ everything about it is, plus them including anything from the Balent days would be a win for me.

----------


## Mia

Does this incarnation of Catwoman know Batman's identity?

----------


## LostinFandom

> Does this incarnation of Catwoman know Batman's identity?


It's purposefully unclear right now.  The "Gothtopia" story last year would indicate she does, at least subconsciously, but the writers on *Batman Eternal* didn't address it and neither has the current *Catwoman* team. I suppose the current story where she tries to find out how Batman "died" will address it, so wait and see.

Personally I'm hoping for a scene where someone reveals it and she replies "tell me something I don't already know."

----------


## 16 Bit

I got the impression she didn't earlier in the new 52 but now she seems to. When Ward walked in on her in the dark in the Catwoman costume she said "in this light he looks like..." which I thought implied Bruce.

----------


## Mia

Thank you!

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Ugh, not enough Catwoman. 

Anyways, question: Do you feel that Valentine's Catwoman lacks personality? I feel the story itself is interesting, but Selina herself feels less like the Selina I'm used to and miss. Also, if the answer yes, do you think this deters a lot of former Catwoman readers from picking the book back up?

----------


## Londo Bellian

The Boss Selina books by Valentine seem more geared to fans of ASoIaF/GoT and want to read more of it it in a predominantly mafia setting than a super/costumed one. The fact that Boss Selina is the main focus character is more an afterthought at times, leading to her wooden personality lately. Now mind, they've tried to rectify this post convergence by having her resume the Catwoman ID to investigate Batman's death (her grief at hearing the news did wonders to break her Ayanami face) and maybe stick it to the Mechabat project for their poor posing. Rumors of her forming her own Shadow league with Eiko, Oswald, Croc and Steph (who after being befriended by Eiko is supposedly moving more into the underworld sphere of influence more than the vigilante side/Bat-fam) also abound. Have to wonder if Selina's quitting the mob game permanently in Future's End will still hold true.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Ugh, not enough Catwoman. 
> 
> Anyways, question: Do you feel that Valentine's Catwoman lacks personality? I feel the story itself is interesting, but Selina herself feels less like the Selina I'm used to and miss. Also, if the answer yes, do you think this deters a lot of former Catwoman readers from picking the book back up?


I think she comes off as very cut off. For most of the run I don't feel like she wants anything, at least until she decided to investigate Batman's disappearance. I wrote an essay about what I think doesn't work about it/why it doesn't generate much excitement.

----------


## Stormcrow

Darwyn Cooke's _Looney Toons_ variant for Catwoman #46 might just be the best thing ever.

Definitely my favorite version of Selina.

----------


## Frontier

Great to see Darwyne Cooke drawing Selina again  :Smile: .

Little worried about Tweety though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Londo Bellian

Do true. Selina is light years away in competence from Sylvester.

Betting Tweety won't even get to finish his catchphrase before Selina goes 'om nom nom'.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Darwyn Cooke's _Looney Toons_ variant for Catwoman #46 might just be the best thing ever.
> 
> Definitely my favorite version of Selina.


the only one of these covers I may actually have to have!  Darwyn does the best rendition of Selina.

----------


## James Hunter

> Ugh, not enough Catwoman. 
> 
> Anyways, question: Do you feel that Valentine's Catwoman lacks personality? I feel the story itself is interesting, but Selina herself feels less like the Selina I'm used to and miss. Also, if the answer yes, do you think this deters a lot of former Catwoman readers from picking the book back up?





> Ugh, not enough Catwoman. 
> 
> Anyways, question: Do you feel that Valentine's Catwoman lacks personality? I feel the story itself is interesting, but Selina herself feels less like the Selina I'm used to and miss. Also, if the answer yes, do you think this deters a lot of former Catwoman readers from picking the book back up?


Personally, I do not feel that Valentine's Selina lacks personality (I would admit Eiko has a surprising amount of personality too) but I *am* reading CATWOMAN by trade (just picked up the first one after I tried issue#38 when it was on the shelves).  I think its a series thatprobably readsbetter in trade.

Its been a LONG time since I've seen personality from Selina so its nice to see some here and to see her have an interesting supporting cast too.

Cheers.

James.

----------


## Londo Bellian

Yeah I guess right now it's best to slog through Selina's mafia phase via TPB  rather than individual issue by issue. Valentine's narrative is more novel-like in pacing than comic book, and thus there's a better flow in reading chapter after chapter of stone-faced Selina in one sitting instead of seeing her null expression one issue, then in the next she's still null "Y U so Terminator, Selina?"

Can't even get maximum enjoyment of her sassy grin in the Tweety WB variant cover because,  that's not how she is between the covers right now.

----------


## LostinFandom

Prez4.jpg

Anyone else notice the "Free Selina" tag in the background? It also appeared on a posters in issue #2.

Also Kevin Wada has released the cover for Issue 46, thought I can't find the solicitation.

CatwomanVol4Iss46.jpg

I so admire how Eiko's dress has Spoiler, Killer Croc and Black Mask on it.

----------


## Londo Bellian

IMHO, Eiko is the most likely suspect for puting the claw scars on Selina's right cheek as seen in Future's End. Question is how and why the two might fall apart that would lead to such mutilation.

----------


## Thirteen

> Also Kevin Wada has released the cover for Issue 46, thought I can't find the solicitation.
> 
> CatwomanVol4Iss46.jpg
> 
> I so admire how Eiko's dress has Spoiler, Killer Croc and Black Mask on it.


Solicit is up now.  Not much info.  I can def see how this run benefits from marathon reading instead of episodic.
http://www.newsarama.com/25575-dc-co...es-part-4.html

----------


## BatGlamorous

> *As Eiko abandons the role of Catwoman*, Selinas list of friends is growing perilously short. And when one of the Calabreses is in danger, she must decide what to save: her family or Gotham City! Will her closest ally become her greatest nemesis in this shocking conclusion?





Shw could make a great long-term villain though. Catwoman has always been severely lacking in serious threats that aren't Bruce.

----------


## Londo Bellian

You think Eiko's gonna turn on Selina and leave those scars?

[IMG]http://i.*****.com/vi/5kcsZJfvyGo/maxresdefault.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Thirteen

> Shw could make a great long-term villain though. Catwoman has always been severely lacking in serious threats that aren't Bruce.



Could seee a nice Black Widow: Natasha vs Yelena type antagonism develop...

----------


## LostinFandom

> Solicit is up now.  Not much info.  I can def see how this run benefits from marathon reading instead of episodic.
> http://www.newsarama.com/25575-dc-co...es-part-4.html


A benefit of reading the series in trade is that one is less likely to be comparing how Selina is written here to the other titles. Going from _Batman Eternal_ Selina to _Catwoman_ Selina was jarring and gave a sense that no one knew what to do with the character. At least when just reading the trade you can tell Valentine cares about her story.




> Shw could make a great long-term villain though. Catwoman has always been severely lacking in serious threats that aren't Bruce.[/CENTER]


I want to restate my opinion that the biggest problem for _Catwoman_ the book is the lack of investment in the supporting characters. (I'm not sure I'd call the villains supporting cast members. I want something more consistent than a villain.)

----------


## Michael24

Upcoming *Gotham* Pop! vinyls, with Selina in the first wave.  :Smile:

----------


## Evan

whats up. does anyone actually like this selina as leader of the mafia story? I like character development but it's soooo boring. Not catwoman style at all.

----------


## James Hunter

> whats up. does anyone actually like this selina as leader of the mafia story? I like character development but it's soooo boring. Not catwoman style at all.


Yeah, I do (and I'm not in the minority but opinion*is* divided).  As said it reads better in trade but its far better then any other CATWOMAN I've seen in the NEW 52 bat her appearance in ETERNAL)

Cheers.

James.

----------


## Londo Bellian

Like he said, Boss Selina's story seems not tailored at all for issue-by-issue consumption; it has to be read as a trade, else the pacing ruin the interest of casual (ie. Catwoman persona only) Selina fans.

----------


## joybeans

Even on an issue-by-issue basis, there's significant plot buildup and character development. It's just takes its time setting up dominoes to fall.

----------


## Ticklefist

> the pacing ruin the interest of casual (ie. Catwoman persona only) Selina fans.


Oh what a joke. If anyone's casual it's the people that showed up after Catwoman started being written like a TV show.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> You think Eiko's gonna turn on Selina and leave those scars?


Where are the bottom two scans from? I don't recognize them.  :Confused:

----------


## LostinFandom

> Where are the bottom two scans from? I don't recognize them.


The scans in that post are all from the _Catwoman: Futures End_ issue.  I'm not counting on anything in that issue coming to pass in this run, including the scars on Selina's face. I asked Valentine if she had any input on that issue and she said no. I was wondering as the original solicit was so different from the end product I thought Sholly Fisch et all changed things later to fit better. They may have, but there was still little interest in coordinating.

----------


## Internet-man

> whats up. does anyone actually like this selina as leader of the mafia story? I like character development but it's soooo boring. Not catwoman style at all.


I really do but I have some criticisms. It's weird that there wasn't really a transition from a relatively minor thief to cool, in control crime boss. I like the writing but it's so over plotted I can't follow it month to month.




> Like he said, Boss Selina's story seems not tailored at all for issue-by-issue consumption...


Yea, exactly.

----------


## Frontier

http://www.newsarama.com/26412-inaki...-catwoman.html

Interview with upcoming Catwoman artist Inaki Miranda, featuring some new art  :Smile: .

----------


## Stormcrow

> http://www.newsarama.com/26412-inaki...-catwoman.html
> 
> Interview with upcoming Catwoman artist Inaki Miranda, featuring some new art .


Great interview! I'm really excited about his art for the new arc, even I don't care for Frank Tieri's writing. Wonder if he'll stay on post issue #50...

----------


## Thirteen

> http://www.newsarama.com/26412-inaki...-catwoman.html
> 
> Interview with upcoming Catwoman artist Inaki Miranda, featuring some new art .


THE PURPLE IS BACK.   :-)   
Not sure that I care for the headlight streaking effect of the goggles (perhaps its just a flourish for the image) but I LOVE that Selina's appearance out of the costume is still a priority for the artist.
"I want to give her a high-fashion edge… go a bit radical. With her eye make-up for example… make her look a bit like a warrior, even when she’s not wearing the Catwoman costume. Make people want to own a “Selina in street clothes” action figure." - Inaki Miranda

----------


## heyevaxx

Initially, I was too discombobulated about Valentine leaving (fired, booted, quit, moving on?) the title to look at this article. Back to "the biggest score of her life" stories.  :Frown: 

Here are my worries regarding Selina art:

* Enormous boobs: always a worry with comic females but considering Selina is a/the top acrobatic and an exceedingly athletic non-meta/non-alien human, a huge chest like many of Adam Hughes' covers and Balent stuff is not my cup of tea.

* Unzipped suits for no good reason: look, I know she's a female with boobs DC, but why on Earth would she unzip her suit at all? Zipped to the neck please unless she's changing in or out of costume.

* Spray on "clothes": Balent's purple spray paint was lazy art. Please include some kind of texture and thickness so it looks real.

* Selina has green eyes: not blue! Always green!

* No high heels in costume: boots with a heel are ok.

But this art example you posted is great! This and your quote drove me to the article.




> And as for her body, I don’t want her to look sexualized, but I want her to be sexy. So she definitely has curves, but in a fit kind of way, I want her to have strong shoulders for example but still look delicate like a cat; shaped as a wasp. Find the right balance. Maybe a bit like Pris, the replicant in Blade Runner.


His sample and body comments are fantastic. I'm not thrilled with her platform clogs - why do comic artists insist on high-heels or other height raising footwear for female sups in costume? I don't mind small cat ears and I've always been fine with her goggles. I wonder if they'll always be neon red since that would make it hard to be sneaky.




> I want Gotham to have a very special night-city-lights breathing. I want neon signs and animated billboards to play as much part as possible in the scenery. I’d like to put a subtle Blade Runner spin as well, but not too depressing. ... A big city can be depressing and suffocating and apocalyptic, but with a technological presence of animated light that is able to bring a weird sense of color, movement and subtle optimistic life to the streets


Basically, Akira + Blade Runner applied over the classic Gotham. Sounds great!

Now if only the author can come up with interesting stories and a reasonable voice for Selina, we'll be doing well.

----------


## Avi

I was really secptic about the new direction since the December line up revealed nothing but the artwork looks great and the January Issue sounds more interesting. I'll still wait for opinions before I will buy it but so far it does not look like the disaster I feared it would become and that's great. 
To integrate High Fashion into her design seems legit and the purple looks good.

The only problem I have is that her back looks already broken...

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Gorgeous art but not sure I'm sold on Blade Runner Selina and that eye makeup...or hair for that matter. What happened to her Batman Eternal bob?

As for high fashion, what designer is he thinking of -- Issey Miyake?

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I was really secptic about the new direction since the December line up revealed nothing but the artwork looks great and the January Issue sounds more interesting. I'll still wait for opinions before I will buy it but so far it does not look like the disaster I feared it would become and that's great. 
> To integrate High Fashion into her design seems legit and the purple looks good.
> 
> The only problem I have is that her back looks already broken...


Her back looks normal. That's what a normal back looks like when a thin and athletic woman stands up straight. Trust me, backs like that are very common. 

HOWEVER, her rib-cage seems to concave in the front. Not good for breathing. 

Anyways, it's very sad to see Valentine go. She was exactly what Catwoman needed after so many years of less than stellar stories. We're back to "big score" stories. I'm not sure that's a good thing. If executed right, it could be an entertaining return to form. 

However, it saddens me to see writers make such uninspired choices with Selina. You know what would have been cool? If Selina were both a boss and Catwoman, in a similar way to how Bruce is both Bruce Wayne and Batman. The catch is while Selina the boss is doing bad things, she's trying to sabotage herself as Catwoman. Of course, her "family" can't know it's her ruining their operations.

----------


## Michael24

So Selina is being returned to her thief roots? That's good news. I might have to get back into reading *Catwoman*. Never cared for the "Boss Selina" angle they tried.

----------


## Ticklefist

> The only problem I have is that her back looks already broken...


Perhaps she had a rough night of Hide the Pickle with Batman.

----------


## Michael24

Wave 5 of N.E.C.A.'s "Scalers" (coming in January) includes a *Batman Returns* Catwoman.  :Smile: 



http://necaonline.com/54116/licenses...-5-assortment/

----------


## Old Man Ollie 1962

I left the title during Judd Winick's run. I want to start reading it again. Just need a good place to jump back in.


Catwoman011a6f.jpg

----------


## Garbledarber

I love Selina, so I'm pretty concerned about Tieri's run. The description sounded incredibly generic and boring. A real step back from what Valentine has been doing with the character.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> His sample and body comments are fantastic. I'm not thrilled with her platform clogs - why do comic artists insist on high-heels or other height raising footwear for female sups in costume? I don't mind small cat ears and I've always been fine with her goggles. I wonder if they'll always be neon red since that would make it hard to be sneaky.


Heels add to a woman's stature which gives her a stronger presence.

----------


## Old Man Ollie 1962

> Time to restart our appreciation of the world's greatest thief, femme fatale, ready to whip, cat-like acrobat, apple of Batman's eye, Gotham parkour champion, not good, not bad, always shades of grey (purple and black), the incomparable, the amazing Catwoman!
> *Catwoman from Batman: Outlaws #2 2000-10*
> 
> 
> Original splash pic: Catwoman (2002) #37 Character Driven 2005-01


That is a beautiful Selina Kyle/Catwoman portrait. The fact that she resembles Lee Meriwether makes it all the more exquisite.

----------


## heyevaxx

> That is a beautiful Selina Kyle/Catwoman portrait. The fact that she resembles Lee Meriwether makes it all the more exquisite.


I agree! Outlaws was a weird mini but had some fun moments and the whole Batfam was involved.

I redid the original splash pic with a digital source:
*Thoughtful from Catwoman v3-37 Character Driven 2005-01 digital*

----------


## Lady Jane

A long time ago, I read a few issues of Catwoman. I liked it then, but since it was the only DC title I read and I was a poor teenager, I dropped it. 

But I was always a fan of the character, so my question is: if I want to get back into it, what should I do?

And is the New 52 Catwoman a good series?

----------


## heyevaxx

> But I was always a fan of the character, so my question is: if I want to get back into it, what should I do? And is the New 52 Catwoman a good series?


There have been 3 New 52 Catwoman authors with a 4th coming with issue 47. Working backwards:

*Catwoman 47-
Frank Tieri*
Selina is going back to being Catwoman 100% of the time and getting back to thieving. This will be the "big heist" Selina from the 90s I think. The author buzz is not too good but the art looks great. We'll see.

*Catwoman 35-46
Genevieve Valentine*
Selina as mob boss of Gotham with an intense, slow burn vibe. Valentine didn't have a lot of action but the story was rich and I think she captured Selina's voice well. I might put her as the 2nd best modern Catwoman author. I get a strong Gotham Central, The Wire, and The Godfather feel from her issues. I wish Valentine could have stayed and taken Selina back to thieving but it was not to be.

*Catwoman 13-34 including a new issue #0 origin story
Ann Nocenti*
Umm, horrible. Just awful. Too much dialog, too many thought bubbles, ridiculous stories/friends/enemies, and Nocenti couldn't get Selina's voice, her personality right to save her life. Selina was so reckless and irreverent that it was surreal; like her just walking into some rich kids' party in broad daylight to hold them up. And not in costume! So dumb. And it was a critical flop; one reviewer was rating comics from 5 (take my money) to 0 (a Nocenti). I think Bronwyn Carlton at the end of the purple suit run is the absolute worst Catwoman author but I may be giving Nocenti a break since Catwoman was pretty bad under Winick who preceded her. Carlton took an ok Selina and just demolished her.

*Catwoman 1-12
Judd Winick*
He debuted the New52 Catwoman and I thought it and his writing were bad. Some say he was not too bad or he was ok but I really disliked Winick's Selina. The cover of #1 was awful and it will forever be the icon for the New52 Selina. It was very violent, gory and he had Selina having sex with Batman, sort of in costume despite her not knowing who she is. So I didn't like Winick a bit though he gets less heat than Nocenti.

So, to sum up:

*Catwoman 35+* gets you a great Selina as the Gotham mob boss, not much action but a slow, intense burn

*Catwoman 47+* gets you, well, we're not sure yet. The art preview looked really good to me but the new author is iffy according to some. If you dig a Catwoman who's thieving and stealing, it'll probably be ok.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Wow, this appreciation thread's buried 5 pages in. Poor kitty. Her  75th anniversary book is out. Without much fanfare of course given DC's austerity measures. The poor dears have had a very bad month with market share in free fall at 22%. I guess Diane has the patience of saint.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Wow, this appreciation thread's buried 5 pages in. Poor kitty. Her  75th anniversary book is out. Without much fanfare of course given DC's austerity measures. The poor dears have had a very bad month with market share in free fall at 22%. I guess Diane has the patience of saint.


No idea what you said, but people really need to start updating this thread instead of making new threads related to Catwoman. That's part of the problem.

----------


## Michael24

Yeah, I had no idea that 75th anniversary book was out. Anybody have a list of what all it contains?

----------


## Aahz

> *Catwoman 35-46
> Genevieve Valentine*
> Selina as mob boss of Gotham with an intense, slow burn vibe. Valentine didn't have a lot of action but the story was rich and I think she captured Selina's voice well. I might put her as the 2nd best modern Catwoman author. I get a strong Gotham Central, The Wire, and The Godfather feel from her issues. I wish Valentine could have stayed and taken Selina back to thieving but it was not to be.


The storys were good, but for me this isn't really Catwoman. 
Catwoman doesn't kill (or orders killings), she works solo and she doesn't quote medival texts.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Yeah, I had no idea that 75th anniversary book was out. Anybody have a list of what all it contains?


I googled it, and found nothing . . . . wth DC?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Contents in link:

http://fyeahbatcat.tumblr.com/post/1...on-of-75-years

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

More news about the new run:
http://www.newsarama.com/26836-catwo...o-mystery.html

Frank's got his work cut out for him in convincing her fans to come back. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound all that appetizing.

And I can't believe her costume could get any uglier but i guess it did while I was away ignoring the drabbest Catwoman run in history. That cowl seems to have gained surface area exposing less of her cheeks. Whoever thought this was a good idea?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

image.jpg

Catwoman in the next Batman Earth One!
From Gary Frank's Twitter. Even her silhouette looks a helluva lot better than whatever  poor  dowdy creature the Bat Office is churning out.

Long hair!!! At least someone's taking notice of Convergence Cats selling way more than Scarface Selina

----------


## Aahz

> Contents in link:
> 
> http://fyeahbatcat.tumblr.com/post/1...on-of-75-years


I don't really understand why they put issues in these books that were just part 1 of a bigger storyline.

----------


## brainticket

> I don't really understand why they put issues in these books that were just part 1 of a bigger storyline.


Yeah, that's dumb. But from business point of view it's reasonable, to get people to buy collected editions etc.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, that's dumb. But from business point of view it's reasonable, to get people to buy collected editions etc.


But is “Her Sister’s Keeper” even available?

----------


## brainticket

> But is Her Sisters Keeper even available?


Not that I know of.

----------


## Michael24

There is a trade of *Her Sister's Keeper*, but it appears to be OOP. (Hope they reissue it at some point, along with trades of the '90s solo series.)

However, I still see the singles readily available in back issue bins at many stores for very cheap.

----------


## MidTierHero

Genevieve Valentine's run was outstanding. It was a different direction for Catwoman, but at the same time she was recognizable. She was the same character, but thrown into very unfamiliar waters, and had to adapt accordingly. It was one of the best things to come out of the Nu52. 

Not too optimistic about Tieri taking over.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I think Tieri's Catwoman will be okay if he can get her voice right. That was something that bugged me about the first two New 52 runs.

----------


## Vesper

http://www.newsarama.com/26836-catwo...o-mystery.html

Tieri's run sounds promising. I'm sold on the art alone.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I like the art too. I do think it's time for a new costume, though. She's been wearing the more or less the same costume for close to 15 years. I think a redesign would help freshen up her character a bit. I would like to see something like Julie Newmar or Anne Hathaway's Catwoman in the books.

----------


## Frontier

> I like the art too. I do think it's time for a new costume, though. She's been wearing the more or less the same costume for close to 15 years. I think a redesign would help freshen up her character a bit. I would like to see something like Julie Newmar or Anne Hathaway's Catwoman in the books.


I wouldn't be against it, but considering her current costume has pretty much been the definitive modern Catwoman look (so much so that most media adaptions have taken a heck of a lot of cues from it) I'm not surprised that it's lasted this long or why there hasn't been much of an effort to give Selina a new look barring a few cosmetic changes. Especially considering how often big costume changes divide fans. 

Though I am interested to see what her Earth One suit will look like. It's Gary Frank, so Selina's going to look beautiful, but I'm definitely curious what it'll be like design-wise.

----------


## Tuck

The current Catwoman costume is the only one in her entire history I don't find terrible.  Some of them have been outright idiotic.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> The current Catwoman costume is the only one in her entire history I don't find terrible.  Some of them have been outright idiotic.


I don't disagree with the second half of the that. However, I think that's part of the charm for a costume. I kind of like a degree of ridiculousness in comics.




> Though I am interested to see what her Earth One suit will look like. It's Gary Frank, so Selina's going to look beautiful, but I'm definitely curious what it'll be like design-wise.


I am too. It looks like we'll be seeing the return of Selina with longer hair (good).

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I like the art too. I do think it's time for a new costume, though. She's been wearing the more or less the same costume for close to 15 years. I think a redesign would help freshen up her character a bit. I would like to see something like Julie Newmar or Anne Hathaway's Catwoman in the books.


Agreed




> The current Catwoman costume is the only one in her entire history I don't find terrible.  Some of them have been outright idiotic.


Her current costume is fugly. To be more specific: the catsuit is fine, the chunky boots are blech but practical, the cowl and goggle combo are the worst offenders. Makes her look like a bug.

Nolan & Lindy did a great job with her costume. Accentuate the positive. Eliminate the negative. 

Glad to see the long hair femme fatale Catwoman returning in a totally different universe that's not controlled by the Bat Office.

----------


## Vesper

> The current Catwoman costume is the only one in her entire history I don't find terrible.  Some of them have been outright idiotic.


 The purple costume will always be one of my favorites.

----------


## Vesper

I've longed for a new costume. I really liked Anne Hathaway's version of Catwoman and loved, loved, loved her costume. It was very minimalist, with just the right sprinkling of fierce to top it all off. I'm not exactly thrilled about what they've done to her costume currently. I hate the gloves, the boots would be ok if they didn't look hella chunky, and the cowl and googles combo only looked right to me when Guillem March was drawing Selina. She looks like a fly with those hideous googles, they should go for a more open-faced look.

----------


## Godlike13

I'd be ok with a new costume. I like her current costume, a lot, but new costumes keep things interesting. Though if they do it, do it to accompany a relaunch.

----------


## Thirteen

> I think Tieri's Catwoman will be okay if he can get her voice right. That was something that bugged me about the first two New 52 runs.


"And I'm just here to rob the bastard."
Lettered and colored preview makes it sound as if Tieri has a reasonable handle on Selina's voice.   
http://comicsalliance.com/catwoman-4...tieri-miranda/

I'm underwhelmed by the visuals, waiting for the "WOW" moment to make Selina leap off the page but in those glimpses, she looks a bit less lithe than I would expect.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Trying to even out your eyeliner before heading out like

cw-makeup.jpg

----------


## Vesper

> Trying to even out your eyeliner before heading out like
> 
> cw-makeup.jpg


I think someone spent a little too much time watching the Hunger Games.

----------


## Vesper

So what's everyone's thoughts on the issue?

----------


## Ticklefist

> So what's everyone's thoughts on the issue?


It's a start. It's a different voice for Catwoman, that's for certain, but I'm not sure that's a problem for me. 

I think it's interesting to see Tieri go back to the very moment that ruined this series (issues 2 & 3) and show us how he'd do it differently.

----------


## 16 Bit

I thought it was cliche and predictable with a setup to for a revenge story I can't care about. Has Louis ever even appeared before?

I was surprised to see Tesla again. Not that the Nocenti was run was any good, I just didn't expect we'd ever see any of those supporting characters again.

----------


## CosmicBat

> 


This is awesome.

----------


## Vesper

> I thought it was cliche and predictable with a setup to for a revenge story I can't care about. Has Louis ever even appeared before?
> 
> I was surprised to see Tesla again. Not that the Nocenti was run was any good, I just didn't expect we'd ever see any of those supporting characters again.


I just felt like It was a rehash of Lola's death all over again, but this time with Louis...whom I've never heard Selina mention a day in her life (I could be wrong). How many fences has Selina exactly known "all her life", and how many times are they gonna die. It just seems like a recurring cliche for the title. I'll stick around to see how this arc pans out, but the first issue wasn't exactly thrilling.

----------


## Ticklefist

Definitely a rehash. Also lacks the emotional punch the first one did. How Catwoman grows from the situation this second time has me interested tho. The fallout of the first iteration left us with a pretty terrible person in the Catwoman costume. Grieving one week, back doing the same dumb shit the next.

----------


## Vesper

> Definitely a rehash. Also lacks the emotional punch the first one did. How Catwoman grows from the situation this second time has me interested tho. The fallout of the first iteration left us with a pretty terrible person in the Catwoman costume. Grieving one week, back doing the same dumb shit the next.


The lack of character growth after Lola's death really ticked me off. I was hoping that Selina would come out of that situation as being more careful, but that wasn't the case. She was back to being just as reckless as ever, if not more. For someone who's suppose to be the "world's greatest thief", she sure was messy.

----------


## Ticklefist

> The lack of character growth after Lola's death really ticked me off. I was hoping that Selina would come out of that situation as being more careful, but that wasn't the case. She was back to being just as reckless as ever, if not more. For someone who's suppose to be the "world's greatest thief", she sure was messy.


Right on. Exactly how I feel.

----------


## Starchild

C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_tumblr_nz9ez7os001rhjbado1_500.jpg


I stumbled upon this on Tumblr. Was it any good? The idea of Catwoman working with Vic & Blue Devil sounds weird but awesome.

----------


## klynn

Hey ya'll, I'd like to know if anyone recommends checking out the Gotham City Sirens collections.  Thanks.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_tumblr_nz9ez7os001rhjbado1_500.jpg
> 
> 
> I stumbled upon this on Tumblr. Was it any good? The idea of Catwoman working with Vic & Blue Devil sounds weird but awesome.


I have this. It's part of Showcase '93, which was a collection of unrelated short stories. Selina, Vic, and BD don' actually work together, they just have stories inside the issue.

That being said, it's pretty neat. It's more of a slow-burning, almost Brubaker take on a Catwoman story, with her doing 80% of her footwork outside of the costume. Definately worth picking up, you should be able to find it pretty easily in a dollar bin somewhere.  :Smile:

----------


## Starchild

> I have this. It's part of Showcase '93, which was a collection of unrelated short stories. Selina, Vic, and BD don' actually work together, they just have stories inside the issue.
> 
> That being said, it's pretty neat. It's more of a slow-burning, almost Brubaker take on a Catwoman story, with her doing 80% of her footwork outside of the costume. Definately worth picking up, you should be able to find it pretty easily in a dollar bin somewhere.



I was actually looking for more Catwoman material. I read the Brubaker stuff and I finished with that, I asked myself: Well..what next? After finishing a great run like that, that is indeed a great question. Read the Judd Winick stuff, it was decent. And I read two issues of Nocenti's stuff. Mainly because Mirror Master & Golden Glider were guest stars. I always admired Catwoman, I just never liked her when she was with Bruce. She's a better character when she is solo. I lurk through this thread every now and then, I like how it isn't depressing like most appreciation threads are on here lol.

----------


## Ticklefist

> Hey ya'll, I'd like to know if anyone recommends checking out the Gotham City Sirens collections.  Thanks.


They wouldn't be the first thing I recommend to a Catwoman fan. They're fine if you want to read a serviceable "monthly adventures of" type comic. 




> I was actually looking for more Catwoman material. I read the Brubaker stuff and I finished with that, I asked myself: Well..what next? After finishing a great run like that, that is indeed a great question. Read the Judd Winick stuff, it was decent. And I read two issues of Nocenti's stuff. Mainly because Mirror Master & Golden Glider were guest stars. I always admired Catwoman, I just never liked her when she was with Bruce. She's a better character when she is solo. I lurk through this thread every now and then, I like how it isn't depressing like most appreciation threads are on here lol.


Consider reading the rest of the series. Will Pfeifer joins at issue #44 and picks up where Brubaker left off. The last few issues suffer from Cancelitis but everything before that is okay.

----------


## Vesper

> Hey ya'll, I'd like to know if anyone recommends checking out the Gotham City Sirens collections.  Thanks.


It certainly isn't the holy grail to all things Selina Kyle, She felt a bit out of place to me in the series. I can't imagine Selina wanting anything to do with Pamela and Harley, especially after the events of Hush. I just didn't quite grasp why she'd team up with those two.

----------


## Steven Ely

In "The Batman vs. the Catwoman!" (Batman #3 (1940) written by Bill Finger), Catwoman thinks... 

IMGh.jpg

----------


## klynn

> They wouldn't be the first thing I recommend to a Catwoman fan. They're fine if you want to read a serviceable "monthly adventures of" type comic. 
> 
> 
> 
> Consider reading the rest of the series. Will Pfeifer joins at issue #44 and picks up where Brubaker left off. The last few issues suffer from Cancelitis but everything before that is okay.





> It certainly isn't the holy grail to all things Selina Kyle, She felt a bit out of place to me in the series. I can't imagine Selina wanting anything to do with Pamela and Harley, especially after the events of Hush. I just didn't quite grasp why she'd team up with those two.


Thanks for the feedback!

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> It certainly isn't the holy grail to all things Selina Kyle, She felt a bit out of place to me in the series. I can't imagine Selina wanting anything to do with Pamela and Harley, especially after the events of Hush. I just didn't quite grasp why she'd team up with those two.


I never quite understood Ivy's motives in Hush. She apparently had a grudge against Selina but I never understood why.

----------


## godisawesome

Jeph Loeb had Catwoman ambush Ivy while the latter was controlling Bruce Wayne in Long Halloween. I think that the idea is since Hush is basically a sequel to Long Halloween and Dark Victory, Loeb's Catwoman has a grudge with Pam.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Jeph Loeb had Catwoman ambush Ivy while the latter was controlling Bruce Wayne in Long Halloween. I think that the idea is since Hush is basically a sequel to Long Halloween and Dark Victory, Loeb's Catwoman has a grudge with Pam.


It's been forever since I've read Long Halloween, but I think I recall that now. Thanks.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Everyone goes on about Nocenti, but I'm pretty sure Bronwyn Carlton's CW run is the worst run of anything ever. It's not even laughably bad like the aforementioned, it's damned near illegible.

At least Nocenti has her old Daredevil run to fall back on.

----------


## BatGlamorous

The rumor mill is spinning that _Catwoman_ is getting possibly relaunched after #52, along with several other titles.

I think it could be a cool idea to keep her in NY for a while and have her develop her own non-Bat supporting cast, an Angel/Buffy sort of thing. Moving Batgirl to her own little more-or-less untouched corner of the universe seemed to do wonders for the title, both sales and quality wise.

----------


## Tony

Personally I would like Catwoman to be more fun adventurer than the over done noir.  It was cool for awhile but gone on too long.

----------


## vitaminbee

So happy they are FINALLY making a Darwyn Cooke Catwoman figure!
tumblr_inline_o2eqk04eO51qbujox_500.jpg

----------


## Stormcrow

> So happy they are FINALLY making a Darwyn Cooke Catwoman figure!
> tumblr_inline_o2eqk04eO51qbujox_500.jpg


YES! So cool! No one does Catwoman like Darwyn Cooke!

----------


## vitaminbee

> YES! So cool! No one does Catwoman like Darwyn Cooke!


Right? It took way too long for something like this to be released. Especially since he is the one who put her in that iconic look, and probably draws it the best out of any other artist...

----------


## heyevaxx

*Darwyn Cooke 1*
Catwoman Design Sketchbook
from The Batman Vault 2009


*Darwyn Cooke 2*
Catwoman Design Sketchbook
from The Batman Vault 2009

----------


## heyevaxx

*Darwyn Cooke 3*
Catwoman Design Sketchbook
from The Batman Vault 2009


*Darwyn Cooke 4*
Catwoman Design Sketchbook
from The Batman Vault 2009

----------


## klynn

> *Darwyn Cooke 3*
> Catwoman Design Sketchbook
> from The Batman Vault 2009
> 
> 
> *Darwyn Cooke 4*
> Catwoman Design Sketchbook
> from The Batman Vault 2009


Fantastic, thanks.  I loved his Selina. That he compares her to Audrey Hepburn in anything is priceless, perfect!

----------


## Huntsman1117

In 2001 I was so excited that Catwoman was getting her own series again, along with a fresh new costume, a new spin on her character, and a new direction for her story. I thought the cover art for issue #1 in 2001 was beautiful. I was itching with anticipation. Then I saw the cover for issue #2 with the goggles. Catwoman looked like a mother****ing PRAYING MANTIS. I hated it. So much so that I couldn't continue reading the series after issue 7 or 8. 

The new Darwyn Cooke toy is kind of cool in a nostalgic way LOL since this look was created 15 years ago. I will admit that. But I'm soaring on the possibility that Catwoman could be redesigned for Rebirth! And I'm excited to see how Gary Frank draws her for Earth One.  I'm so ready for those frustrating bug-eye goggles and heavy boots to be gone...I can't even take it.

----------


## vitaminbee

> In 2001 I was so excited that Catwoman was getting her own series again, along with a fresh new costume, a new spin on her character, and a new direction for her story. I thought the cover art for issue #1 in 2001 was beautiful. I was itching with anticipation. Then I saw the cover for issue #2 with the goggles. Catwoman looked like a mother****ing PRAYING MANTIS. I hated it. So much so that I couldn't continue reading the series after issue 7 or 8. 
> 
> The new Darwyn Cooke toy is kind of cool in a nostalgic way LOL since this look was created 15 years ago. I will admit that. But I'm soaring on the possibility that Catwoman could be redesigned for Rebirth! And I'm excited to see how Gary Frank draws her for Earth One.  I'm so ready for those frustrating bug-eye goggles and heavy boots to be gone...I can't even take it.


The goggles look great though. I will say that I hate what Darwyn Cooke's design has evolved into. He drew it perfectly and the artists that followed him did too up until Brubaker left the title. Then it started to change subtly. Around when Gotham City Sirens started and March drew her cowl/body suit as two separate things and leaving the neck open and bare. Now, it looks even weirder with the look of the mask around her jaw... Looks really rigid and hard.

----------


## 16 Bit

No Catwoman book listed for Rebirth  :Frown:

----------


## Godlike13

> No Catwoman book listed for Rebirth


Ya, that sucks. I mean her book made it to 52. Limped there, but still. She's gotta be somewhere though.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Oh Selina, I'll miss reading about you monthly.  :Frown: 

I think DC should try putting Catwoman and Batwoman as the stars of Detective Comics (each with their own feature) to see how it sells.

----------


## klynn

> No Catwoman book listed for Rebirth


Uhg, this sucks.  I really don't want to see her relegated to guest spots in _Batman_.  I really like her on her own with a strong creative team, supporting cast and concept.

----------


## heyevaxx



----------


## heyevaxx

What a bummer.

23 years of monthly title appearances between Catwoman v2, Catwoman v3, Gotham City Sirens, and Catwoman v4.

Selina had 2 breaks in this 23 year run: 5 months between v2 and v3 plus 3 months between GCS and v4.

Will she get another 3-5 month break followed by a self title or a team up? Or, perpetual just guest appearances?

I've noticed that other "good guys" are frequently hostile towards Selina, e.g. Babs, Huntress, etc. Will she guest spot in the New BOP and constantly be distrusted and grumbled at?

Also, Modern Era and especially New52 Bruce is often a jerk towards Selina. Valentine wrote him showing more concern for her but she's an exception. He's generally aloof and unattracted to her. It's a far cry from Batman v1-01 when he was smitten. Not to mention the rest of the Golden Age, then the Bronze Age, Hush, Heart of Hush, etc.

*1993-08* Catwoman v2-01 purple suit debut
2001-07 Catwoman v2-94 purple suit finale

*5 month break* from a regular monthly title with a few non-monthly appearances:
2001-10 Detective Comics 761 "Trail of the Catwoman Part 3"
2001-11 Detective Comics 762 "Trail of the Catwoman Part 4" 
2001-11 Batman Dark Victory 07
2001-11 The Batman Chronicles 23

2002-01 Catwoman v3-01 black suit debut
2009-08 Gotham City Sirens 01 team up debut
2008-09 Catwoman v3-81 black suit finale
2010-03 Catwoman v3-83 black suit one-shot
2010-08 Gotham City Sirens 26 team up finale

*3 month break* from a regular monthly title:

2011-11 Catwoman v4-01 New52 debut
*2016-07* Catwoman v4-52 New52 finale

*???*

----------


## Ticklefist



----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm upset that Catwoman isn't transitioning along with other titles during Rebirth. I don't know for sure that it means her book is cancelled, as that hasn't been reported and her May 2016 solicitation doesn't say "final issue". I'm sending Geoff Jons, Frank Tieri, and Dan Didio tweets now. To think, think book is just now getting good...

----------


## tbgo

> I'm upset that Catwoman isn't transitioning along with other titles during Rebirth. I don't know for sure that it means her book is cancelled, as that hasn't been reported and her May 2016 solicitation doesn't say "final issue". I'm sending Geoff Jons, Frank Tieri, and Dan Didio tweets now. To think, think book is just now getting good...


The book wasn't selling. Of course it's cancelled. It's amazing it wasn't cancelled sooner as books that were selling more were cancelled due to low sales. DC is trying to save itself after losing a shitload of revenue. That's what Rebirth is all about.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> The book wasn't selling. Of course it's cancelled. It's amazing it wasn't cancelled sooner as books that were selling more were cancelled due to low sales. DC is trying to save itself after losing a shitload of revenue. That's what Rebirth is all about.


But that wasn't Catwoman's fault. DC is simply incompetent. It's become a corporate assembly line.

----------


## Huntsman1117

20160224_053714-1-1.jpg20160224_053714-1-1.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

20160224_053714-1.jpg
Full size

----------


## Vworp Vworp

> The book wasn't selling. Of course it's cancelled.


I'm not sure an 'of course' applies here, considering that Cyborg's book is getting relaunched.  It's numbers haven't been a whole lot higher than Catwoman, and that's after only 7 issues.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm not sure an 'of course' applies here, considering that Cyborg's book is getting relaunched.  It's numbers haven't been a whole lot higher than Catwoman, and that's after only 7 issues.


Thats probably because Cyborg is in the Justice League and they are planing to make a Cyborg movie.

But the line up seem not tatally based on sales. Gotham Academy is also still around despite low sales, while Starfire and R:SOB which were quite successful were cancelled.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Could be. I'm not sure how well Cyborg's comic was fairing. But I can say Catwoman's comic was suffering from poor sales.

I hate to say it, but Catwoman's weakness has been its visual ambiguity. Many people want to believe that Catwoman represents a dark, noir, sexually ambiguous character; whose appearance is more practical and realistic than those of other characters. 

But when it comes to the ultimate feline femme fatale, why does she, before every other iconic vixen, have to be the one to be less-sexy, less visual-appealing, and more masculine than every other iconic character I can think of?!

----------


## spark627

I'm sad that there won't be a Catwoman book in Rebirth (so far)... but the new 52 really screwed with her. Winnick was ok but really changed who she was, Nocenti wrote nonsense that I had to drop, the Gotham mob thing was super slow and boring. Right now, she is the most like her pre52 days, sad it won't continue.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I'm okay with her taking a break, actually.

She can come back when DC actually knows what to do her. The book was meandering almost from day one.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> But when it comes to the ultimate feline femme fatale, why does she, before every other iconic vixen, have to be the one to be less-sexy, less visual-appealing, and more masculine than every other iconic character I can think of?!


What do you mean?

----------


## tbgo

> What do you mean?


For the past fifteen years, it's been demanded that the character be covered up and desexualized.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> For the past fifteen years, it's been demanded that the character be covered up and desexualized.


I think it's more a concern of the _type_ of sexy she's portrayed as. There's a difference between Audrey Hepburn and Pamela Anderson. Selina should always lean more towards the former. It just seems to work better for her. She has her roots in the old femme fatale trope from the 30s and 40s, casting her as some leather-clad sex kitten with a plunging zipper isn't a good look.

----------


## Thirteen

> I'm okay with her taking a break, actually.
> 
> She can come back when DC actually knows what to do her. The book was meandering almost from day one.


THIS.
I'd rather rebuild the Catwoman mystique as a member of Batman's Rogues Gallery with Rebirth and launch a solo when there is a proper creative pitch for one.
Make her fans miss her and thirst for more...

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I think it's more a concern of the _type_ of sexy she's portrayed as. There's a difference between Audrey Hepburn and Pamela Anderson. Selina should always lean more towards the former. It just seems to work better for her. She has her roots in the old femme fatale trope from the 30s and 40s, casting her as some leather-clad sex kitten with a plunging zipper isn't a good look.


Ehhhh . . . yes and no. She is a femme fatale, but she's not the type of femma fatale you're thinking off. She was a former sex worker after all. Her idea of sexy is very much grounded in the leather dominatrix archetype.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Ehhhh . . . yes and no. She is a femme fatale, but she's not the type of femma fatale you're thinking off. She was a former sex worker after all. Her idea of sexy is very much grounded in the leather dominatrix archetype.


That origin was a product of Frank Miller and Year One, it's not definitive. I'd be alright if they Rebirth'd a brand new non-sex-worker origin, it seems like the New 52 was tip-toeing around whether it was still cannon or not.

That's one things I've always held against DC since the New 52. Selina's book wandered aimlessly for so long that we never even got a definitive origin. Is that too much to ask?

----------


## godisawesome

I think it's more a matter of creativity, color, and (I can't believe I'm going to say this) "pizazz" in looking at Catwoman's current suit and finding it wanting in function and grace in some forms (mostly the completely unzipped cleavage-happy look) and wanting in dynamism in another (the fully zipped up and goggles down look) when in lesser artist's hands.

Darwin Cooke could rock his design. So can other artists. But the current suit's simplicity also leads to some seeing it as "cheap" if it goes for raw sex appeal over style, and there's been plenty of artists who just can't seem to make the biker-look look like a distinctive costume. I think it's the opposite problem of the old purple suit; the more colorful and spandex design of that thing somehow made it seem more consistently "playful" in most artists' hands, but it was so much a "sexy" suit that others could never take it seriously.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> That origin was a product of Frank Miller and Year One, it's not definitive. I'd be alright if they Rebirth'd a brand new non-sex-worker origin, it seems like the New 52 was tip-toeing around whether it was still cannon or not.
> 
> That's one things I've always held against DC since the New 52. Selina's book wandered aimlessly for so long that we never even got a definitive origin. Is that too much to ask?


I would rather that aspect of Selina's life be cemented in canon. Wouldn't even mind if she were both a sex worker and Catwoman at the same time, instead of her becoming Catwoman after she quit her former job. It makes her far more interesting IMO.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I would rather that aspect of Selina's life be cemented in canon. Wouldn't even mind if she were both a sex worker and Catwoman at the same time, instead of her becoming Catwoman after she quit her former job. It makes her far more interesting IMO.


Eh, different strokes. I've always found her Earth 2 "wealthy heiress turned to crime" origin much more compelling. Linking Selina directly to the sex industry just continues to box her in as Bruce's sexy little plaything imo. She has more depth than that.

In short, I just think it's a better idea and makes for a more interesting character if her sexuality stands alongside her other traits, not as a crux.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Eh, different strokes. I've always found her Earth 2 "wealthy heiress turned to crime" origin much more compelling. Linking Selina directly to the sex industry just continues to box her in as Bruce's sexy little plaything imo. She has more depth than that.
> 
> In short, I just think it's a better idea and makes for a more interesting character if her sexuality stands alongside her other traits, not as a crux.


I wasn't advocating that it be a "crux."

Bruce's plaything? Selina would be a sex worker, not a stepford wife. I don't imagine too many men claiming ownership over the former. 

As for the "wealthy heiress turned to crime." I wouldn't be able to respect a character like that unless she was a Robin hood type of character.

----------


## vasir12

> Eh, different strokes. I've always found her Earth 2 "wealthy heiress turned to crime" origin much more compelling. Linking Selina directly to the sex industry just continues to box her in as Bruce's sexy little plaything imo. She has more depth than that.
> 
> In short, I just think it's a better idea and makes for a more interesting character if her sexuality stands alongside her other traits, not as a crux.


I get what you're trying to say but I just don't see how being a sex worker in the past removes someone of depth, makes them someone's plaything, and leaves someone to be defined just by sexuality alone.

----------


## oasis1313

> Eh, different strokes. I've always found her Earth 2 "wealthy heiress turned to crime" origin much more compelling. Linking Selina directly to the sex industry just continues to box her in as Bruce's sexy little plaything imo. She has more depth than that.
> 
> In short, I just think it's a better idea and makes for a more interesting character if her sexuality stands alongside her other traits, not as a crux.


The thing is, we don't get stories about male prostitutes.  I like the bored-heiress-wants-more-pearls-and-catnip.  What was the point of making her a prostitute?

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> The thing is, we don't get stories about male prostitutes.  I like the bored-heiress-wants-more-pearls-and-catnip.  What was the point of making her a prostitute?


It added a respectable and interesting aspect to her origin story.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think it's more a matter of creativity, color, and (I can't believe I'm going to say this) "pizazz" in looking at Catwoman's current suit and finding it wanting in function and grace in some forms (mostly the completely unzipped cleavage-happy look) and wanting in dynamism in another (the fully zipped up and goggles down look) when in lesser artist's hands.
> 
> Darwin Cooke could rock his design. So can other artists. But the current suit's simplicity also leads to some seeing it as "cheap" if it goes for raw sex appeal over style, and there's been plenty of artists who just can't seem to make the biker-look look like a distinctive costume. I think it's the opposite problem of the old purple suit; the more colorful and spandex design of that thing somehow made it seem more consistently "playful" in most artists' hands, but it was so much a "sexy" suit that others could never take it seriously.


I want to see Catwoman back in the purple evening gown and green cape.

CATWOMAN.jpg

/joke/  Maybe?

----------


## BatGlamorous

I'd actually unironically love if she returned to the purple slit-dress. I was disappointed that Valentine decided to put her in a drab pantsuit when the Pre-Crisis costume would have worked so well instead.




> It added a respectable and interesting aspect to her origin story.


It wasn't lacking either of those things before Miller, though.

It just always seemed a little sleazy to me, almost like fan service. Yes, we know Selina is sexy. You don't have to literally turn her into a sex worker to drive that point home.

----------


## signalman112

> I want to see Catwoman back in the purple evening gown and green cape.
> 
> CATWOMAN.jpg
> 
> /joke/  Maybe?



I for one would LOVE to see that and have Catwoman turn back into her villainous ways, sparring with Batman.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> What do you mean?


Almost every other major female comic character has feminine beauty and sex appeal. Think about Storm, Mystique, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and Supergirl. I regret I also have to mention Black Widow and Black Cat because they both wear black latex catsuits that are usually partially unzipped.

Catwoman is the only major female character whose costume has heavy boots and bug-eye goggles that cover her eyes and most of her beautiful face. Darwyn Cooke said he wanted to make Catwoman less sexy and more practical looking. (I should mention he just did the same thing with Batgirl, which all of my friends on Facebook blasted) That doesn't make sense to me because cats are feminine, soft, lightweight, and sensual. Catwoman was created to be a femine antithesis to Batman, according to Bob Kane. A utilitarian outfit like hers just doesn't make sense for a femine, seductive, cat-burglar. Work boots, aviator helmets, and goggles simply are not attractive.

Also, I can guarantee you that more men, and even women, find women with longer hair more attractive and more sexy. I'm not that opposed to Selina having short hair, but I think she looks better with medium- (like Michelle Pfeiffer and Camren Bicondova) to longer hair, like she used to have before Darwyn Cooke's style.

----------


## Huntsman1117

As for the prostitution origin, Frank Miller is obviously a man who loves dark vices (such as prostitution). This is apparently why he created "Sin City". I'm certain that Miller made Catwoman a prostitute for this reason. Then he went on to show the future Catwoman as an overweight prostitute dressed as Wonder Woman, tied up, and beaten black & blue in his beloved Dark Knight Returns novel. Frank Miller has no respect for Catwoman and just wants to degrade her for the sake of including dirty vices in his comic, which unfortunately became mostly cannonical. Therefore as a Catwoman fan I can't stand Frank Miller.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I don't really like her as a wealthy heiress turned to crime because it makes her less sympathetic. In my opinion, Selina should not come from a life of privilege.
Making Selina into a sex worker doesn't automatically make her sleazy. I think it makes her a character with more depth because it makes her seem undesirable by the rest of society. It also gives her a better reason to not trust the police.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

> As for the prostitution origin, Frank Miller is obviously a man who loves dark vices (such as prostitution). This is apparently why he created "Sin City". I'm certain that Miller made Catwoman a prostitute for this reason. Then he went on to show the future Catwoman as an overweight prostitute dressed as Wonder Woman, tied up, and beaten black & blue in his beloved Dark Knight Returns novel. Frank Miller has no respect for Catwoman and just wants to degrade her for the sake of including dirty vices in his comic, which unfortunately became mostly cannonical. Therefore as a Catwoman fan I can't stand Frank Miller.


I feel the same way. Heck, he had more respect for Two-Face or Barry Allen (who isn't even apart of the Batman mythos) than one of the most pivotal elements in the Bruce's life.

----------


## vasir12

Being a sex worker isn't automatically degrading and damaging to one's character, people.

----------


## Aahz

> As for the prostitution origin, Frank Miller is obviously a man who loves dark vices (such as prostitution). This is apparently why he created "Sin City". I'm certain that Miller made Catwoman a prostitute for this reason. Then he went on to show the future Catwoman as an overweight prostitute dressed as Wonder Woman, tied up, and beaten black & blue in his beloved Dark Knight Returns novel. Frank Miller has no respect for Catwoman and just wants to degrade her for the sake of including dirty vices in his comic, which unfortunately became mostly cannonical. Therefore as a Catwoman fan I can't stand Frank Miller.


Wasn't the prostitution thing changed by a retcon?

Btw. was there ever a real explanation for her new 52 origin as Mafia princess?

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> As for the prostitution origin, Frank Miller is obviously a man who loves dark vices (such as prostitution). This is apparently why he created "Sin City". I'm certain that Miller made Catwoman a prostitute for this reason. Then he went on to show the future Catwoman as an overweight prostitute dressed as Wonder Woman, tied up, and beaten black & blue in his beloved Dark Knight Returns novel. Frank Miller has no respect for Catwoman and just wants to degrade her for the sake of including dirty vices in his comic, which unfortunately became mostly cannonical. Therefore as a Catwoman fan I can't stand Frank Miller.


I wasn't talking about Frank Miller, but for the record, I find his treatment of Catwoman atrocious. It's not the fact that he made her a sex worker that bothered me. It's the fact that he degraded her.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Being a sex worker isn't automatically degrading and damaging to one's character, people.


No, not always. But in Catwoman's case, it was very much so. Frank Miller degraded Selina Kyle. She was living and operating in a very dirty section of the city in a filthy apartment (where she also did her business-gross). The probability that she would have several STD's in the 1980's (when it was written) would be extremely high.  She did not appear clean, classy, nor professional. Frank Miller made Selina Kyle a bottom feeder as both a young adult AND as a middle-aged woman past her prime. The prostitution origin created by Frank Miller was an insult to Catwoman and anyone who liked her character. 

And no, this origin was cannonical up to the point of the New 52. Ed Brubaker used this origin as the basis of his entire run in the early-to-mid-2000's.

----------


## godisawesome

The biggest issue I have with Selina having a past in the oldest profession (aka prostitution, hooking, and all sorts of synonyms that all carry radically different twists on the same general occupation) is that _some_ writers don't seem to be able to use it in a good way. Not just tasteful, but I mean in a quality manner; Miller himself being one of the examples, since his Selina ultimately reads more like a (to be more crass and to use a viewpoint from someone less inclined towards respecting their fellow humanity) crazy hooker with a fetish costume. When someone uses it well, like Darwyn Cooke or the writers who've lumped it in with the rest of her life story to show how desperate her beginning was, it's fine.

Of course, Catwoman herself is pretty hard up for any definitive origin; you've got the resurrection by Cat story that someone tried to use in the comics, the flight attendant with amnesia, the wealthy heiress gone bad, the mafia don's daughter, and the street rat and petty thief. Only the latter seems the easiest to just plug in and work with; it's the one used by Gotham and Dark Knight Rises. 

Speaking of Catwoman's costume...here's that version I put in the Catwoman gear thread a few weeks ago. I'm sorry to bother you guys if you've seen it before, but here it is with a few explanations:

-Her claws can flip back on her knuckles to both free her fingers up for light fingered theft and other dexterity work, as well as forming handy brass knuckles.
-I was trying to combine a suit that actually does embrace the idea that she chose to take a practical suit and then heavily modify it to be fashioned as a costume.
- Yeah, that's a bedazzled set of batcuffs on one wrist; I thought it made sense that she might intentionally display a trophy of escaping Batman, and she can probably find practical usage for the,.
- Her other wrist has a Bat-claw style gadget; I liked the thing she had in the nineties, and I think you could excuse it as being yet another gadget she's stolen from Batman, or perhaps payment and gear he gave her for some industrial espionage.
- I'm a fan of long-haired Selina as well, but it occurred to me that a con-woman and professional burglar might actually find it useful to be able to switch between multiple hairstyles; so this one is a short haired Catwoman who uses wigs in both civilian and costume work.
image.jpgimage.jpg

----------


## DanArt

Catwoman during the 1990's, and the 1960's was puuuurrffect. That is the Catwoman I want to remember. She should have stayed a villain and batmans one true want. Commissioner Gorden's daughter is a stalemate. Only reason Bat-girl exist is the counter Cat-woman becuase Batman can't. At least in the Terry universe Bruce prefers Youth over Age. Where is the Cat woman saga there??? I guess she retired or ended up inside an insane asylum finally. Probably spend the remainder of her life hunting down poachers ( which would make more sense to end her life ). 

Catwoman should slay the moron who shot and killed Cecil the Lion. Lets see how he likes running naked in plains of Africa. Dentists the true enemy of both man and beast alike. Imagine Selina against an army of mad dentist or one in particular. It would be the greatest Cat woman comeback ever.

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## TsukiSentinel

> Almost every other major female comic character has feminine beauty and sex appeal. Think about Storm, Mystique, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and Supergirl. I regret I also have to mention Black Widow and Black Cat because they both wear black latex catsuits that are usually partially unzipped.
> 
> Catwoman is the only major female character whose costume has heavy boots and bug-eye goggles that cover her eyes and most of her beautiful face. Darwyn Cooke said he wanted to make Catwoman less sexy and more practical looking. (I should mention he just did the same thing with Batgirl, which all of my friends on Facebook blasted) That doesn't make sense to me because cats are feminine, soft, lightweight, and sensual. Catwoman was created to be a femine antithesis to Batman, according to Bob Kane. A utilitarian outfit like hers just doesn't make sense for a femine, seductive, cat-burglar. Work boots, aviator helmets, and goggles simply are not attractive.
> 
> Also, I can guarantee you that more men, and even women, find women with longer hair more attractive and more sexy. I'm not that opposed to Selina having short hair, but I think she looks better with medium- (like Michelle Pfeiffer and Camren Bicondova) to longer hair, like she used to have before Darwyn Cooke's style.


A lot of your complaints seem to me to be more about your specific idea of what's sexy. If you look at any of Adam Hughes' Catwoman covers, you'll see that her sexiness has never actually been toned down. If anything, she's even sexier in his covers because of her more realistic appearance.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> As for the prostitution origin, Frank Miller is obviously a man who loves dark vices (such as prostitution). This is apparently why he created "Sin City". I'm certain that Miller made Catwoman a prostitute for this reason. Then he went on to show the future Catwoman as an overweight prostitute dressed as Wonder Woman, tied up, and beaten black & blue in his beloved Dark Knight Returns novel. Frank Miller has no respect for Catwoman and just wants to degrade her for the sake of including dirty vices in his comic, which unfortunately became mostly cannonical. Therefore as a Catwoman fan I can't stand Frank Miller.


Absolutely hated what Frank Miller did to Catwoman and it led me to hating Frank Miller in general.

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## TsukiSentinel

> Absolutely hated what Frank Miller did to Catwoman and it led me to hating Frank Miller in general.


What did you hate specifically?

----------


## Huntsman1117

Good point about Adam Hughes's covers. 98% of them are outstanding! Adam said he fell in love with Catwoman,  and his cover art was so great that it made the cover of a huge comic book price guide. BUT tragically his awesome art misrepresented the art inside. She was glamorous and sexy on the cover, but basic, bulky, and...butchy (sorry) inside. 

I guess they couldn't afford to have Hughes illustrate every page of each issue.


When one sees an attractive woman on the cover on a comic and sees a much less attractive woman on the inside of the book (doing strange things like having a baby with her former friend/lover's son), they are apparently less inclined to invest in the book.

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## Huntsman1117

> What did you hate specifically?


I can say that I specifically despised how Miller made Selina a cheap, dirty-looking hooker who seemed to make very little money and hated her life. He then portrayed her as a woman who gained little more other than 200 lbs, a bad Wonder Woman costume, and cheap, runny eyeliner, and a sadistic client who enjoyed beating her black & blue and leaving her bound & broken on her own floor. 

I dont think the fact she gained weight later in life is horrible. But the horrible image and situation that Miller created for the future Selina Kyle in The Dark Knight Returns is abhorrent and disrespectful to her as a beloved, iconic character.

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## Huntsman1117

One reason that I like Selina Kyle is that she isn't truly evil. That her adventures are naughty by nature, but oftentimes wind up with her doing something good. Now we know that in the Bible (yes I'm going there-just hear me out) that God has used many criminals to do his bidding. For, example, Moses (yep) and Mary Magdaline.  Both of these people had hard situations to deal with in life and turned to crime. However, later God used them to do incredibly good things despite their transgressions. 
I know its weird that I'm using Biblical saints to compare to Catwoman,  but hear me out...
I enjoy the idea that Catwoman as a criminal can do a lot of good, whether intentionally or unintentionally. I also like the idea that sometimes someone has to do something mischievous in order for goodness to prevail. This ideal is what I like the most about Catwoman.

I know I was hating on the idea that Selina was a former prostitute. I wouldn't prefer the lifestyle of the type of prostitute that Frank Miller designated for Selina Kyle. BUT, obviously a lot of good can come from this origin: determination to survive, insight into the criminal mind, sexual manipulation, determination to prevent abuse, protectivity of the downtrodden, street-smarts, emotional hardness. These qualities can help a person, who ultimately has a good heart, to do great things and help a lot of people. I must say, this somewhat tragic upbringing can lead to strong, yet unusual, heroism in a person's life.

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## heyevaxx

For those interested, Catwoman super-fan dr_von_fangirl has done a magisterial *The COMPLETE definitive Catwoman origin* which covers the origin of Modern Era Selina in great detail. http://dr-von-fangirl.livejournal.com/42641.html

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## Osiris-Rex

> I can say that I specifically despised how Miller made Selina a cheap, dirty-looking hooker who seemed to make very little money and hated her life. He then portrayed her as a woman who gained little more other than 200 lbs, a bad Wonder Woman costume, and cheap, runny eyeliner, and a sadistic client who enjoyed beating her black & blue and leaving her bound & broken on her own floor. 
> 
> I dont think the fact she gained weight later in life is horrible. But the horrible image and situation that Miller created for the future Selina Kyle in The Dark Knight Returns is abhorrent and disrespectful to her as a beloved, iconic character.


This sums up what I didn't like about Miller's Catwoman.  I'm not saying she should have started out as a nun, but I much prefer the Gotham origin of Selina's Catwoman.  A kid abandoned by her mother and no known father who learned to survive on the streets by her own wiles and cleverness without having to degrade herself. That is the most logical origin yet.  Let's just forget about the rest too. The put upon secretary tossed out the window, the airline stewardess with amnesia, the pet store owner, the abused trophy wife.  I can see this Selina growing up to be the Selina in The Dark Knight Rises.

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## TsukiSentinel

> This sums up what I didn't like about Miller's Catwoman.  I'm not saying she should have started out as a nun, but I much prefer the Gotham origin of Selina's Catwoman.  A kid abandoned by her mother and no known father who learned to survive on the streets by her own wiles and cleverness without having to degrade herself. That is the most logical origin yet.  Let's just forget about the rest too. The put upon secretary tossed out the window, the airline stewardess with amnesia, the pet store owner, the abused trophy wife.  I can see this Selina growing up to be the Selina in The Dark Knight Rises.


What you find degrading is not necessarily what other people, including Selina, would find degrading. Also, there is no reason why Gotham's Selina can't grow up into Frank Miller's Selina.

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## Osiris-Rex

> What you find degrading is not necessarily what other people, including Selina, would find degrading. Also, there is no reason why Gotham's Selina can't grow up into Frank Miller's Selina.


Not going to happen.  Why would she?

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## juan678



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## Huntsman1117

Lol that's cute

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## Old Man Ollie 1962

Gotham City Sirens Portrait Art Series - "The Encounters"
Catwoman by Garrie Gastonny *

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## TsukiSentinel

Why does DC hate Catwoman so much? Now they won't include her in their Top 10 leading ladies of DC list? It reminds of the time they requested art from Adam Hughes of all the major Superheroines/villains in a line-up in dresses, but they demanded he omit Catwoman. He didn't listen and now we have this brilliant work of art:

http://images.forwallpaper.com/files...9/dc-girls.jpg

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## tbgo

She needs a complete overhaul, starting with the costume, even the hair, go back to long. It needs to be a 180 transformation. The 90s persona needs a comeback. She's suppose to be sexy - a baddie, a vixen, threatening, alluring. She's suppose to use her sexuality to her advantage. That ugly outfit, the goggles, the effort to desexualize Selina goes against the very essence of the character. Meanwhile, Harley and Poison Ivy are playing the part Selina was born to play and are getting all the attention. It's ridiculous. It's funny how they've tried to make the ugly Brubaker era costume sexy, unzipping it a bit. It just doesn't work. It couldn't be less sexy. It's clunky and a mess. Visual presentation is step number one to revitalizing a character. It doesn't matter how awesome the story is. If it looks like a continuation of the last 15 years, people aren't going to pick up her book. The Brubaker era needs to come to a close. That's how she was reestablished after the character went off the rails in 2000 after the awesome Balent era. They revamped her with a new costume, a new logo, new writer. The visual alerted the public that this was something new, to give it a shot. We need to turn a page from the last 15 years. I believe this is the longest incarnation the character has experienced, at least costume-wise.

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## Huntsman1117

It frustrates me as well that DC leaves Catwoman out of so many things. There is a new toy line of DC super hero girls that was featured on CBR. It features hip young versions of Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl aaaaand...wait for it......Bumble Bee.  Who the hell is Bumble Bee and why is she included and Catwoman isn't?  I was curious to see how they would design a hip young Catwoman, but as you've said, I think DC hates Catwoman; or they just don't find her marketable. 

It's true that Catwoman needs a hot new design. She does need to be sexy. Goggles and work boots are not hot at all. DC should have realized this look wasn't going to work when Catwoman sales quickly plummeted after its relaunch in 2001. The same went for the relaunch in 2011 with the same costume, while everyone else in the DCU recieved new costumes. 

Even at the end of its run in the 90's, Catwoman vol 2 (purple outfit) still ranked higher than it did in the next two volumes with the goggles; it often competed neck to neck with Robin, Supergirl, and Birds of Prey, and usually outsold Wonder Woman and Aquaman. The Catwoman with goggles can't even compete with Aquaman  (no offense, Aquaman) even when "The Dark Knight Rises" and "Gotham" should add to her fame!

No more goggles, no more work boots, period. Give her a hot new look and a similar attitude, lifestyle, and adventures as she had in the 90's. Then Catwoman will become more popular and will increase sales.

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## Huntsman1117

I posted this on another forum and I thought it would fit in purrfectly here as well:

http://listverse.com/2011/09/10/top-...-cat-burglars/

Here is a list of the top 10 Cat Burglars, most of which are still living today and at least 1 of them is a free man! This was an interesting and informative article. Anyone writing Catwoman comics should research these highly successful real-life cat burglars.

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## Huntsman1117

The #1 thief is Jack MacLean, who the police nicknamed "Superthief". He used to leave notes at some crime scenes to taunt the police. He was only arrested after he broke his own rule and hired an accomplice, who was caught by police (slaps forehead). He's serving about 10 years in prison. During this time he wrote a book called "Secrets of a Superthief", a guide to protect your homes from cat-burglars. Meow!

----------


## MatterEaterLad

I'm having some issues with those glasses.. They're too big for my taste.  :Frown:

----------


## Confuzzled

Selina appeared at the end of _Poison Ivy #3 Cycle of Life and Death_ and will play a big part in Issue #4 as well. She looks pretty gorgeous in #3.

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## Huntsman1117

Cool I'll check that out.

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## klynn

So apparently Selina will only be showing up in Snyder's _All-Star Batman_?  Did he write her at all in his _Batman_ run?  And it sounds like maybe he'll only write the villains in individual arcs so we might not even get much of her here.  I'm a little bummed by this.

CefUzPqXIAEhLCL.jpg

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## TsukiSentinel

> So apparently Selina will only be showing up in Snyder's _All-Star Batman_?  Did he write her at all in his _Batman_ run?  And it sounds like maybe he'll only write the villains in individual arcs so we might not even get much of her here.  I'm a little bummed by this.
> 
> CefUzPqXIAEhLCL.jpg


I don't think DC likes Catwoman. Scott Snyder was the one who put her on the crime-boss path.

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## heyevaxx

I think I've got to accept that my fave Selina Kyle's 23 year monthly run is over. She seems to be in between completely benched and being a regular guest. Maybe some ASB, Batman, or tec.

Her numbers after Valentine left have just fallen off a cliff. DC might be reluctant to give her another solo unless she stars in a movie.

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## godisawesome

That image looks like it's hinting at a slight redesign of Catwoman's costume. I think you can see thigh high boots and shoulder high gloves.

To me, the biggest issue with Catwoman going forward into Rebirth was the mishandling of both the transition to Valentine's story and then the snap back to the old formula that was so vicious it killed off any feeling of continuity and consistency left in the title. New 52 Catwoman before Valentine was mostly junk; Valentine won some people back to the comic just by not sucking and feeding off the interesting set-up from Batman Eternal. But I think her story got launched a little bit too "in media res"; the only explanation we had for Catwoman bring Queenpin was her reconciling with her father in Eternal. It probably would have worked better to see Selina cement her leadership of her family while simulataneously weakening the other families as Catwoman. Then, when Valentine's writing turned out to be a bit too slow in getting to the finale, we got the story injected with speed, ended lickety-split, and then we were right back to the same "heist of a lifetime" stories with whip-lash from the shift.

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## chipsnopotatoes

> I think I've got to accept that my fave Selina Kyle's 23 year monthly run is over. She seems to be in between completely benched and being a regular guest. Maybe some ASB, Batman, or tec.
> 
> Her numbers after Valentine left has just fallen off a cliff. DC might be reluctant to give her another solo unless she stars in a movie.


Well even when she had a movie coming out, DC trashed her. Remember nu52 Catwoman #1?

I'm surprised Frank Tieri's run isn't selling as well as it should. I only recently rediscovered Catwoman after dropping off midway Genevieve's  tedious run. But it's exactly how I think she should be written -- smart and fun. Catwoman 50 was a blast. Inakis art is good too. My only beef is the costume which I truly hate. It's a pity it took so long for them to get her right. I guess by that time, a lot of her long time fans have just disengaged from DCComics out of sheer fatigue.

I don't have any faith that Snyder gets the character so I won't be on board his run.

In any case, as long as Gotham doesn't trash young Selina, there will be a version that I enjoy. Camren is absolutely delightful.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Well even when she had a movie coming out, DC trashed her. Remember nu52 Catwoman #1?
> 
> I'm surprised Frank Tieri's run isn't selling as well as it should. I only recently rediscovered Catwoman after dropping off midway Genevieve's  tedious run. But it's exactly how I think she should be written -- smart and fun. Catwoman 50 was a blast. Inakis art is good too. My only beef is the costume which I truly hate. It's a pity it took so long for them to get her right. I guess by that time, a lot of her long time fans have just disengaged from DCComics out of sheer fatigue.
> 
> I don't have any faith that Snyder gets the character so I won't be on board his run.
> 
> In any case, as long as Gotham doesn't trash young Selina, there will be a version that I enjoy. Camren is absolutely delightful.


But even Gotham's version isn't perfect, and the problem isn't Camren's acting. The problem is that they focus SO MUCH on Bruce that he ends up dragging her character down. 

I get that Bruce Wayne isn't the fun-loving sort, but Selina Kyle IS! I miss her throwing muffins and pushing Bruce's buttons. 

Secondly, what are her goals in life? Gotham's version of Selina Kyle has absolutely NO aspirations. You could say survival is her goal, but she seems to have such an easy time of it that she might as well be middle-class. This is why 'Scarification' and 'By Fire' were such good episodes for her. They actually delved into her character.

Thirdly, they don't always get her voice right. For instance, during the scene where she was patching Bruce up after he got beat up, why didn't she punch him for playing the hero? We know damn she doesn't take kindly to the generosity or selflessness of others on her behalf.

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## heyevaxx

> Well even when she had a movie coming out, DC trashed her. Remember nu52 Catwoman #1?


[rant]
The Dark Knight Rises portrayal of Selina Kyle has never sat well with me:
1) she was never called Catwoman
2) she used a gun and not a whip
3) there was zero chemistry with her and Bruce

In Batman Returns, Catwoman had the whip and the unpredictable, wildness that makes Catwoman a fun character. And there was loads of Bat&Cat sizzle both in and out of costume. When Pfeiffer and Keaton kissed (or licked!) I believed it, I felt it. So many great Bat&Cat moments like the ballroom and the final dialog in the power plant.

How about Hathaway and Bale? I think they kissed twice and I got zero from it, nothing. I felt no emotion at all which is a pity. And I know Anne is a great actress, she's a knockout, and her outfit (razor heels!) was cool. But it did zip for me compared to Pfeiffer's amazing performance.

And just to head this off at the pass: her fall was broken by the awnings, she was knocked out but not killed, and she awoke from the knock out and wasn't resurrected by the cats. Burton has made this very clear but some BR haters always seem to bring this up to me. Lastly, I agree with those who say Penguin was gross. He was. And Bats probably did kill at least twice in BR which is a negative.

But wow! What a great Catwoman and fantastic Bat&Cat interaction. This is what got me collecting Catwoman volume 2.

I have to hand it to The Dark Knight Rises for one thing: I got back into comics big time after it came out because I wanted to know everything I could about Catwoman. I didn't like TDKR's Selina but I wondered if I was just liking what I was familiar with. Well, now I'm a comics junkie and in the end, neither portrayal is perfectly true to the comics.

But for me Pfeiffer hit the main Catwoman notes much much better than any other movie or TV effort.
[/rant]

Oh God, Catwoman v4-01 was awful. The cover, awful. Sexing Bats in costume not knowing who he is, awful. Showing them have sex right the page, also awful! This isn't the 40-70s, we have the Internet now-a-days for that sort of thing. Not to mention, maybe dial down the boob gigantism a bit DC, it makes no sense that the world's best female acrobat and a good fighter would have a 34F chest.

And unlike some Catwoman fans, I was disliking the run starting right with Winick. It was worse under Nocenti but she was so bizzaro world bad that I actually found it fun to see what kinda nutty story or horrible dialog she'd come up with next.

This is partly why I give GV's Queenpin story a pass since Nocenti was soooo bad. Plus, Valentine's dialog is really top notch and I think she captured Selina's voice, at least one I like.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> But even Gotham's version isn't perfect, and the problem isn't Camren's acting. The problem is that they focus SO MUCH on Bruce that he ends up dragging her character down. 
> 
> I get that Bruce Wayne isn't the fun-loving sort, but Selina Kyle IS! I miss her throwing muffins and pushing Bruce's buttons. 
> 
> Secondly, what are her goals in life? Gotham's version of Selina Kyle has absolutely NO aspirations. You could say survival is her goal, but she seems to have such an easy time of it that she might as well be middle-class. This is why 'Scarification' and 'By Fire' were such good episodes for her. They actually delved into her character.


True. She needs more fleshing out but Camren sells whatever little they give her. She's got star power that one. I'd like to find out her backstory a bit more though.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Camren is absolutely delightful.


Camren Bicondova is wonderful, what a great bit of casting. She'd never really acted before but she did over 70 auditions in LA before hitting it on Gotham. After she did her return audition where she performed some optional "cat like movements" they asked about during the first audition, she was a lock. One of the casting agents left the room and called other production people saying "this is the one, we've cast Selina." What a catch. I'm really looking forward to more Bruce and Selina adventures now that they're paired up. 

I'm *not* looking forward to Tabitha being her mentor and whip instructor which is coming. Lucas is such a knock out but I get nothing from her character, except a sigh of relief once she's off screen. I just don't get stone cold killer from her performance. The assassin (Copperhead?) in s1 was excellent, I wish they just brought her back.




> But even Gotham's version isn't perfect, and the problem isn't Camren's acting. The problem is that they focus SO MUCH on Bruce that he ends up dragging her character down. 
> 
> I get that Bruce Wayne isn't the fun-loving sort, but Selina Kyle IS! I miss her throwing muffins and pushing Bruce's buttons. 
> 
> Secondly, what are her goals in life? Gotham's version of Selina Kyle has absolutely NO aspirations. You could say survival is her goal, but she seems to have such an easy time of it that she might as well be middle-class. This is why 'Scarification' and 'By Fire' were such good episodes for her. They actually delved into her character.
> 
> Thirdly, they don't always get her voice right. For instance, during the scene where she was patching Bruce up after he got beat up, why didn't she punch him for playing the hero? We know damn she doesn't take kindly to the generosity or selflessness of others on her behalf.


I agree that Gotham's Selina isn't perfect. I don't even think Blessed Saint Brubaker's Selina was completely perfect (maybe almost perfect!). But Camren has been really good in this TV show adaptation of the Gotham comic book world.

Gotham is going to favor the upcoming Batman with more screen time. Plus, David has more acting experience than Camren. And I don't think we're going to get that light moment with the food fight in s1 again. It's darker darker darker all the way. 

In a show with an ensemble cast with lots of sub-plots, they can only fit in so much. Consider that both Barbara and Ivy have been MIA up till last episode. Babs waking up means another character that gets screen time. Maybe we'll get another episode or two featuring Selina's story. I can only hope.

About the tone getting darker, the last episode has Bruce taking that beat down and finally punching the baddie with Selina putting her thug down so they could run. It's hard to write in a fun-loving moment after a bit like that. Instead, they put a nice and gory close up of Selina stitching up Bruce. Also, if she punched him for playing the hero, his speach about how he felt during the fight wouldn't have worked.

Did anyone notice the Knightfall reference in the last episode?

BW: _That he couldn't break me, that no one can._

SK: _Nobody is unbreakable Bruce_

Ok, that's my Catwoman time for the night, thank you!  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

> So apparently Selina will only be showing up in Snyder's _All-Star Batman_?  Did he write her at all in his _Batman_ run?  And it sounds like maybe he'll only write the villains in individual arcs so we might not even get much of her here.  I'm a little bummed by this.
> 
> CefUzPqXIAEhLCL.jpg


Ya, this is messed up. Catwoman was one of the few books the made it to 52 issues. Yes it whimpered there, and it is well in cancellation range, but its not like they gave her any creator power to really help (yes Valentine's run was good, but u can't expect a new name to really help sales). Still making it to 52 is not nothing in this market. And now maybe a part in All-Star Batman is the only thing she can get. Thats not very cool. Im not saying they should relaunch her solo, but couldn't they find her something where she will be more heavily featured month to month.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> [rant]
> The Dark Knight Rises portrayal of Selina Kyle has never sat well with me:
> 1) she was never called Catwoman
> 2) she used a gun and not a whip
> 3) there was zero chemistry with her and Bruce
> 
> In Batman Returns, Catwoman had the whip and the unpredictable, wildness that makes Catwoman a fun character. And there was loads of Bat&Cat sizzle both in and out of costume. When Pfeiffer and Keaton kissed (or licked!) I believed it, I felt it. So many great Bat&Cat moments like the ballroom and the final dialog in the power plant.
> 
> How about Hathaway and Bale? I think they kissed twice and I got zero from it, nothing. I felt no emotion at all which is a pity. And I know Anne is a great actress, she's a knockout, and her outfit (razor heels!) was cool. But it did zip for me compared to Pfeiffer's amazing performance.
> ...


I liked both Returns and Rises. Chemistry was sizzling in Returns but more subtle in Rises (maybe it's Nolan's English reserve thing). Don't forget they were also going for the misdirection thing with Miranda Tate. But I really liked their first meeting at Wayne Manor and Selina's scene at the bar. That sold it for me. Unfortunately, she was underutilized because there was so much going on. Overall, I really enjoyed Hathaway's performance just as I did with Michelle's.

Costume wise, I liked Anne's Julie Newmar inspired outfit a lot more. Michelle's looked rather uncomfortable (she did confirm that too). Lindy even had that clever trick with her headpiece so the goggles were out of the way when she didn't need them.

Don't get me started on Judd Winick. His face is permanently on my pin cushion. And Ann must have had mushrooms when she wrote Catwoman. That's the only way to explain it. As for Genevieve, I must say she was a breath of fresh air after Nocenti's looney tunes, but her Selina was just so miserable that she wore me down.

So after all that creative team revolving door, for me, Tieri's is just right even though many dismissed him at first. I regret not getting onboard sooner. Have you read his Catwoman 50? Really well done. I plan on picking up the last two remaining issues because I think we're finally going to learn what the hell Nocenti was talking about in Catwoman 0 (yes THAT one...). If he can tie that loose end up coherently, then he's a genius.

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## Huntsman1117

I liked how strong, confident, intelligent, and skilled Hathaway's Catwoman was. You're right, she wasn't very romantic or flirty with Batman, but like you said Christopher Nolan was probably trying to mislead us with the Miranda Tate relationship. Nolan's Batman movies were, to me, supposed to be more realistic than others so I was surprised Hathaway's Catwoman had high-tech goggles and metallic heels, with no explanation as how a lone cat-burglar like her aquired such sophisticated equipment. 

Pfieffer's Catwoman was responsible for my fan hood but she was easily defeated and "killed" repeatedly. That was my only complaint. Her design and characterization was brilliant. I love how dangerous she APPEARED to be; how sensuous and dangerous she looked.

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## Huntsman1117

It looks like Catwoman will continue to keep her hair concealed and will still be wearing the large goggles in "All Star Batman", which is disappointing.  But maybe they'll do away with her heavy combat boots and make her more sleek & sensuous. Her silhouette on the cover shown above doesn't look bad. 

I will agree with the thought that DC Comics sort of hates Catwoman, LOL. They arent doing her any justice. Maybe it's because they don't know what to do with her on a monthly basis. Maybe they think she's better as a guest star. Maybe they think she's all-together lame and weak. Who knows... I just hope somebody at DC will make Catwoman an awesome character with an awesome book SOON.

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## Huntsman1117

Frank Tieri responded to a tweet on Twitter, which complained about Catwoman and Poison Ivy being shelved, by saying this may not last forever for either character, and that he's currently working on something at DC, and he hopes he can fit Catwoman in it somewhere. Fingers crossed!

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## Green Ghost

> Frank Tieri responded to a tweet on Twitter, which complained about Catwoman and Poison Ivy being shelved, by saying this may not last forever for either character, and that he's currently working on something at DC, and he hopes he can fit Catwoman in it somewhere. Fingers crossed!


Good to hear! It makes me angry that Harley has multiple books for her own plus duzend of guest appearances, but Catwoman and Ivy will have nothing regular in Rebirth...I mean they could easily make money off all three, but somehow all the energy seems to go to Harley.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I liked how strong, confident, intelligent, and skilled Hathaway's Catwoman was. You're right, she wasn't very romantic or flirty with Batman, but like you said Christopher Nolan was probably trying to mislead us with the Miranda Tate relationship. Nolan's Batman movies were, to me, supposed to be more realistic than others so I was surprised Hathaway's Catwoman had high-tech goggles and metallic heels, with no explanation as how a lone cat-burglar like her aquired such sophisticated equipment. 
> 
> Pfieffer's Catwoman was responsible for my fan hood but she was easily defeated and "killed" repeatedly. That was my only complaint. Her design and characterization was brilliant. I love how dangerous she APPEARED to be; how sensuous and dangerous she looked.


I thought Pfeiffer's Catwoman was crazy, and Selina shouldn't be crazy. However, it was a very compelling portrayal.

----------


## tbgo

> It looks like Catwoman will continue to keep her hair concealed and will still be wearing the large goggles in "All Star Batman", which is disappointing.  But maybe they'll do away with her heavy combat boots and make her more sleek & sensuous. Her silhouette on the cover shown above doesn't look bad. 
> 
> I will agree with the thought that DC Comics sort of hates Catwoman, LOL. They arent doing her any justice. Maybe it's because they don't know what to do with her on a monthly basis. Maybe they think she's better as a guest star. Maybe they think she's all-together lame and weak. Who knows... I just hope somebody at DC will make Catwoman an awesome character with an awesome book SOON.


Don't forget why this Rebirth thing is happening to begin with. DC, not to mention the film department, is in the crapper. They just keep getting things wrong. It's no different when it comes to the characters. It's to be expected at this point.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Don't forget why this Rebirth thing is happening to begin with. DC, not to mention the film department, is in the crapper. They just keep getting things wrong. It's no different when it comes to the characters. It's to be expected at this point.


I skimmed through the other thread gauging people's reaction to Rebirth. The gist I got out of it is this seems to just be a musical chairs of existing creative teams (outside of Rucka joining WW) and there's some enthusiasm but I doubt it's sustainable. 

Given the proliferation of tv versions of the characters, there's bound to be some cannibalization of print. I don't know if they realize that their drug pusher economic days are over.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Catwoman gets a young adult book

http://mashable.com/2016/03/31/superhero-ya-dc/

"Mashreads can exclusively reveal that Wonder Woman, Batman, Superman and Catwoman will each get their own young adult book starting in 2017.

DC Entertainment and Warner Bros. Consumer Products has partnered with Random House Books for Young Readers to bring four of the most iconic characters to life."

Well what do you know. She's emerging from her pariah status. Or maybe Random House has more sense than to feature Bumblebee

----------


## DevilBat66

From what I understand a lot of the bi-weekly books will be going back to monthlies as they roll out other characters.Rebirth is probably going to go on for a few months at least and hopefully, someone will have a cool Catwoman pitch that drives a relaunch.
I would rather wait until they have a plan and good creative team for Selina than to have them rush something together just to have a book on the stands.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Chipsnopotatoes I love your Bumblebee comment!  I'll definitely check out a Catwoman novel. That should be good. 
Hulk you're right, Catwoman needs a lot of major changes and sometimes that takes time. I just want Catwoman comics to be awesome again.

----------


## heyevaxx

He is so good! And watching him draw is like amazing squared.

1min video of Jim Lee drawing Catwoman:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BD35AZ0H9VT/

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Catwoman gets a young adult book
> 
> http://mashable.com/2016/03/31/superhero-ya-dc/
> 
> "Mashreads can exclusively reveal that Wonder Woman, Batman, Superman and Catwoman will each get their own young adult book starting in 2017.
> 
> DC Entertainment and Warner Bros. Consumer Products has partnered with Random House Books for Young Readers to bring four of the most iconic characters to life."
> 
> Well what do you know. She's emerging from her pariah status. Or maybe Random House has more sense than to feature Bumblebee


I sort of blame the movies and recent comic book versions of Catwoman for this.  She has a rather drab and boring costume now. At least the purple jammies during Jim Balent's run had a color. And Catwoman's green cape is now but a distant memory.  Bumblebee at least has the advantage of a colorful costume. Is there a good reason Batman still has a cape but Catwoman doesn't have a cape anymore?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Is there a good reason Batman still has a cape but Catwoman doesn't have a cape anymore?


Acrobatics

Actually it's more of a question of is there any real reason to have a cape. At least Batman's cape is used for gliding.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I sort of blame the movies and recent comic book versions of Catwoman for this.  She has a rather drab and boring costume now. At least the purple jammies during Jim Balent's run had a color. And Catwoman's green cape is now but a distant memory.  Bumblebee at least has the advantage of a colorful costume. Is there a good reason Batman still has a cape but Catwoman doesn't have a cape anymore?


Yes, cats can't fly, unlike bats. Also, capes tend to look silly on women, whereas they tend to look regal on men.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Yes, cats can't fly, unlike bats. Also, capes tend to look silly on women, whereas they tend to look regal on men.


Supergirl resents that remark.  :Smile:

----------


## Michael24

> He is so good! And watching him draw is like amazing squared.
> 
> 1min video of Jim Lee drawing Catwoman:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BD35AZ0H9VT/


Artists, man. They make it look so easy.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

so any idea where Selina's gonna be once rebirth begins?

----------


## klynn

Supposedly Scott Snyder will be using her in _All Star Batman_ but it hasn't been made clear if she'll be a regular cast member or just the subject of an arc (I suspect the latter).  Otherwise, no other announcement for her unfortunately

----------


## BatGlamorous

Two more cinematic references in #51 today.

I never thought about it, but I could totally see Selina as a cinema buff, especially classic cinema. It also works as a nice little nod to the initial "femme fatale" inspiration for her character way back in the golden age.

----------


## klynn

> Two more cinematic references in #51 today.
> 
> I never thought about it, but I could totally see Selina as a cinema buff, especially classic cinema. It also works as a nice little nod to the initial "femme fatale" inspiration for her character way back in the golden age.


I love the idea of Selina being a cinema buff.  I've been enjoying Tierri's run and hope that if she gets a solo book down the line (after _All Star Batman_?) he gets to write it.

----------


## Confuzzled

There's some sweet Selina/Pamela bonding going on in the preview for Poison Ivy: Cycle of Life and Death #4

----------


## Confuzzled

Selina was a blast in Poison Ivy #4. She kept poking at an irritable Ivy, teasing her about her colleague who had a crush on her, and was having a ball in general. The Selina/Ivy dynamics were pretty endearing and it is refreshing to see just the two of them interact without the shadow of Harley.




You guys can pick up the issue even if you haven't been following the mini so far. It's incredibly enjoyable and pretty new reader friendly too.  :Smile:

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Why the hell isn't Catwoman popular anymore? Why won't anyone buy her book?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Why the hell isn't Catwoman popular anymore? Why won't anyone buy her book?


maybe because of crap writers or maybe people just see her as a bland sex object for batman to chase?

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> maybe because of crap writers or maybe people just see her as a bland sex object for batman to chase?


But she's not. She's one of the most iconic and interesting female characters of the 20th century. More so than Wonder Woman. More so than Harley Quinn. More so than Batgirl or Batwoman.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Why the hell isn't Catwoman popular anymore? Why won't anyone buy her book?


I think it boils down to a lack of prioritizing. DC doesn't really promote her inside the books. She's still included in merchandise that you find at Hot Topic and other places so they clearly know she's popular.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

she's more popular than jason todd and he's got a book...

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

It doesn't help that people still associate her with that terrible 2004 movie.

----------


## tbgo

Ugly outdated costume.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I love the idea of Selina being a cinema buff.  I've been enjoying Tierri's run and hope that if she gets a solo book down the line (after _All Star Batman_?) he gets to write it.


If the cinema love is a thing (best hobby ever?) I'll have a peek at the book. Always liked FilmFreak during Pfeifer's run.

----------


## godisawesome

> Why the hell isn't Catwoman popular anymore? Why won't anyone buy her book?


Currently? I think it's because the uptick in quality from Valentine's writing shored up some support from people who were very curious to see "what happens next" and when that became "take it back to formula" they dropped off. The current creative team sounds like it's doing great, but there's still some massive damage left over from the pre-Valentine arcs, and while some people found the Valentine story to be lacking and miserably paced, having the entire thing thrown out the window immediately afterward kind of feels stupid. I for one think they should have found a way to build off the premise of Queenpin returning to thievery and use that TK relaunch the book, not just try and sweep the whole thing under the rug.

I think it went like this:

Winick's Catwoman (people get kind of turned off by the horrible fanfiction in the first issue)-->Nocenti's Catwoman (people drop the book like the plague because it's sucks)--> Valentine's Queenpin Catwoman (story starts too quickly with no set-up for how we got here aside from her new father, takes too long to get things done, but has an uptick in quality and atmosphere)--> current Catwoman (is decent, at the least, but kicks out previous entires fans who replaced the earlier fans).

----------


## BatGlamorous

Man, I'd love to see a new Sirens book after reading Ivy's last issue. But DC put Harley on too high a pedestal, especially with the new movie, to "demote" her back to a Sirens book I think.

----------


## Caivu

> But she's not. She's one of the most iconic and interesting female characters of the 20th century. More so than Wonder Woman. More so than Harley Quinn. More so than Batgirl or Batwoman.


Agreed. I like all these characters, but out of any of them Selina has a nice intersection of longevity _and_ being (arguably) more interesting due to her moral ambiguity.

----------


## TheYoungWolf

> Currently? I think it's because the uptick in quality from Valentine's writing shored up some support from people who were very curious to see "what happens next" and when that became "take it back to formula" they dropped off. The current creative team sounds like it's doing great, but there's still some massive damage left over from the pre-Valentine arcs, and while some people found the Valentine story to be lacking and miserably paced, having the entire thing thrown out the window immediately afterward kind of feels stupid. I for one think they should have found a way to build off the premise of Queenpin returning to thievery and use that TK relaunch the book, not just try and sweep the whole thing under the rug.
> 
> I think it went like this:
> 
> Winick's Catwoman (people get kind of turned off by the horrible fanfiction in the first issue)-->Nocenti's Catwoman (people drop the book like the plague because it's sucks)--> Valentine's Queenpin Catwoman (story starts too quickly with no set-up for how we got here aside from her new father, takes too long to get things done, but has an uptick in quality and atmosphere)--> current Catwoman (is decent, at the least, but kicks out previous entires fans who replaced the earlier fans).


i just finished both vol's of winnick's run. should i just skip straight to valentine's? will it make sense? also what do you mean by the entire thing being thrown out in vol 8?

----------


## godisawesome

Id say skipping Nocenti's run is generally agreed to be a wise course of action; the only issues during her run that got approval were a somewhat lackluster Jon Layamon-written tie-in to Zero Year and another guest written issue by Sholly Fisch. Generally, she's bad punchline to Catwoman fans.

And like I said, the issue with the current volume is that the major characters and plot threads left over from Valentine's run were swept away by a newspaper article shown in one panel and brushed off by Selina.

----------


## TheYoungWolf

damn is nocenti's run really that bad? i skipped to valentine's run but it got kinda confusing. am i supposed to read batman eternal first?

----------


## godisawesome

The actual setup for Queenpin Catwoman is in Eternal, and I'd argue is one of the few plot threads that actually feels satisfactory, though still a bit undercooked since she joins up with biological dad and Boom! She's in charge of the Calabreses.

And I can't personally confirm that the Nkcenti run is that bad; I heeded everyone's word about it and avoided it. I can tell you that Comicbook Roundup gives all of her issue a below average score, and some of their comic website reviewers are generally a little lenient; you have to genuinely suck to get a score in the red instead of yellow.

----------


## 16 Bit

It's THAT bad. It's bad in so many ways. The worst is that it barely even makes sense. It's the hardest comic to follow I've ever read. 

You won't miss anything either. There is like one side character from that run who shows up in the current run and there isn't any important backstory really.

----------


## klynn

> It's THAT bad. It's bad in so many ways. *The worst is that it barely even makes sense. It's the hardest comic to follow I've ever read.* 
> 
> You won't miss anything either. There is like one side character from that run who shows up in the current run and there isn't any important backstory really.


Oh yeah, I really wanted to give Nocenti the benefit of the doubt and bought her whole run on Comixology but I couldn't make it through it all. So frustrating and disappointing.

----------


## Aahz

> The actual setup for Queenpin Catwoman is in Eternal, and I'd argue is one of the few plot threads that actually feels satisfactory, though still a bit undercooked since she joins up with biological dad and Boom! She's in charge of the Calabreses.


But you don't really need Eternal to understand Valentines Catwoman, nothing what happned in this series had any connection with Eternal, and non of the new characters appeared Eternal they were all introduced in Catwoman (it is a little bit confusing in beginning since they just pop up without much explanation).

----------


## TheYoungWolf

cool thanks guys! yeah it was kinda confusing jumping straight from winnick's run and then shes a mob boss now without any explanation why or where her cousins come from lol. i was thinking about binding vol 1-2 with 6-8 but not sure its the best idea?

----------


## Confuzzled

Julie Newmar surprised Camren Bicondova on Hallmark's 'Home and Family'. This is truly lovely:

----------


## Confuzzled



----------


## adrikito

Better than Talia.. More difficult than betray you and trying to kill you.

I liked his time as a Mafia Boss

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

What a shame, this two parter by Tieri might be the best Catwoman issues of the New 52 and now it's done

----------


## klynn

> What a shame, this two parter by Tieri might be the best Catwoman issues of the New 52 and now it's done


I liked his run as well. I'd have loved to see how he developed her in further issues.  Ah well, only time will tell if DC has any significant Rebirth plans for her.....

----------


## Londo Bellian

And to think Tieri was opined to be a sub-par successor to Valentine. Words are being eaten right now.

Oh and in Catwoman #52.....

SONIC AGITATOR BOOTS! Let's see your ring pull something that awesome, Brosnan!Bond.

----------


## godisawesome

> And to think Tieri was opined to be a sub-par successor to Valentine. Words are being eaten right now.
> 
> Oh and in Catwoman #52.....
> 
> SONIC AGITATOR BOOTS! Let's see your ring pull something that awesome, Brosnan!Bond.


I don't think it was a matter of Tieri being seen as sub-par as much as it was the new Status quo snapping away so suddenly that people left the book because of that.

----------


## zebracross

Selina Kyle is a lovable character. I am very sad of the N52 depictions on her. Everytime she showed up in Batman or Detective Comics, she was showed as kind of begging for Bruce's love. That's all. While the real Selina in previous comics was not like that. She's not that hopeless nor annoying. She's smart, playful, the best thief in the world and always makes Bruce fascinated. I really hope she will appear as regular guest in Rebirth (Batman, Detective comics, Batman All Stars) with much better depiction compared to N52.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> And to think Tieri was opined to be a sub-par successor to Valentine. Words are being eaten right now.
> 
> Oh and in Catwoman #52.....
> 
> SONIC AGITATOR BOOTS! Let's see your ring pull something that awesome, Brosnan!Bond.


Tieri Catwoman > Valentine Selina Calabrese. The latter became tedious after one or two issues

----------


## klynn

> Selina Kyle is a lovable character. I am very sad of the N52 depictions on her. Everytime she showed up in Batman or Detective Comics, she was showed as kind of begging for Bruce's love. That's all. While the real Selina in previous comics was not like that. She's not that hopeless nor annoying. She's smart, playful, the best thief in the world and always makes Bruce fascinated. I really hope she will appear as regular guest in Rebirth (Batman, Detective comics, Batman All Stars) with much better depiction compared to N52.


From your lips to Geoff Johns' ears!

----------


## BatGlamorous

I wonder how long Selina will be going without a title.

My money is on her being placed in a new monthly with Harley & Co. to promote the all-female team movie coming out with Margot Robbie in the future (which could very well be Sirens, but I'm not holding my breath). Hope it's sooner rather than later,

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I wonder how long Selina will be going without a title.
> 
> My money is on her being placed in a new monthly with Harley & Co. to promote the all-female team movie coming out with Margot Robbie in the future (which could very well be Sirens, but I'm not holding my breath). Hope it's sooner rather than later,


I think DC is just plain done with Catwoman. They milked her, sabotaged her, and then dumped her. Looks like Harley is next.

----------


## Stormcrow

> I wonder how long Selina will be going without a title.
> 
> My money is on her being placed in a new monthly with Harley & Co. to promote the all-female team movie coming out with Margot Robbie in the future (which could very well be Sirens, but I'm not holding my breath). Hope it's sooner rather than later,


Bleeding Cool reported a while ago that a new Catwoman series was unlikely, but that she might be featured in the likes of Detective Comics.

I'd prefer something closer to the Sirens, though, and with Harley's popularity that seems like a more likely option to me.

----------


## zebracross

> From your lips to Geoff Johns' ears!


I wish!!!
Anyways,if DC doesn't know what to do with the character,at least don't screw nor cheapened her. In N52 they brought her out in Batman or Detective Comics (with no important role,just being a seducer to Batman) just to have their comics sold,because they knew that Catwoman is popular and has many fans. I really hate that!

----------


## Frontier

Catwoman is going to be in Telltale's Batman game, voiced by Laura Bailey: 

telltale1-e3cb7.jpg

----------


## zebracross

> Catwoman is going to be in Telltale's Batman game, voiced by Laura Bailey: 
> 
> telltale1-e3cb7.jpg


Yay! Can't wait! -- I hope the story will meet Catwoman fans' expectation!

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

never would someone have guessed that one day Harley Quinn Would Be More Popular than catwoman and be a star of her own book while Selina gets Relegated to Guest Star Status

----------


## zebracross

> never would someone have guessed that one day Harley Quinn Would Be More Popular than catwoman and be a star of her own book while Selina gets Relegated to Guest Star Status


Yeah.. thanks to the New 52 writers who couldn't write stories that captivate readers let alone CW fans *sorry for ranting*

----------


## tbgo

> never would someone have guessed that one day Harley Quinn Would Be More Popular than catwoman and be a star of her own book while Selina gets Relegated to Guest Star Status


That's what happens when you make someone sexless and devoid of any color and fun and then try to throw some of that back in without really doing an overhaul.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> never would someone have guessed that one day Harley Quinn Would Be More Popular than catwoman and be a star of her own book while Selina gets Relegated to Guest Star Status


I could've. It all starts with Paul Dini and his treatment of the two characters. Coupled with the Nu52's mishandling of Selina, Paul Dini's influence on the DC universe is immense. 

Also, as the person above stated, the lack of fun. At some point, writers forgot that Selina is a fun-loving girl, a bit arrogant, always quippy and quotable, and never needs anybody.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

one wouldn't think a cartoon character wouldn't be upstaging most of DC's ladies especially not Catwoman And Wonder Woman

----------


## MidTierHero

I thought Genevieve Valentine's run was fantastic. It was a bit of a departure from typical Catwoman stories, but Selina was still recognizable as the same character she always was.

Catwoman is such a great character who can be placed in almost any type of story... I don't understand how DC can't seem to capitalize on that.

----------


## zebracross

13434977_1028311043884087_8551057996612342710_n.jpg

Selina Kyle brief appearance in "The Dark Knight Returns: The Last Crusade" by Frank Miller and Brian Azzarello.

----------


## Michael24

'90s purple-suited Selina is getting her own Rock Candy figure courtesy of Funko. Sadly, it's a SD ComicCon exclusive.  :Frown:

----------


## tbgo

> '90s purple-suited Selina is getting her own Rock Candy figure courtesy of Funko. Sadly, it's a SD ComicCon exclusive.


Using this design again would, believe it or, bring renewed interest in the character from the public.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Using this design again would, believe it or, bring renewed interest in the character from the public.


Yeah we all like the outfit she's worn for the past 15 or so years, but it's about time she got something new. I'd be okay with something like the purple 90s outfit, but with a darker color.

----------


## Confuzzled

Something closer to the Julie Newmar/Anne Hathaway costumes would help make Catwoman instantly recognisable to casual fans too. As Batgirl is currently sporting purple too, going back to the 90's costume may seem a bit confusing and redundant.

----------


## vitaminbee

> Using this design again would, believe it or, bring renewed interest in the character from the public.


That makes no sense. It'd only please the fans who liked it.

----------


## tbgo

> That makes no sense. It'd only please the fans who liked it.


It would be a 180 change, back to a classic look, that also has sex appeal, fun, and catches the eye. Image is a big problem this character is going to face for the foreseeable future. They changed her costume before back in 2001/02 to get attention. It has to be done again. She is stagnating. 

She should have long hair again too!

----------


## Rocco

MoviesSE 2016-02-26 11-24-25-65.jpg


ROUGH CLIP of CATWOMAN 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRAJtPoT4A

 - from the new movie BATMAN: ROGUES GALLERY 

coming soon

----------


## godisawesome

> Something closer to the Julie Newmar/Anne Hathaway costumes would help make Catwoman instantly recognisable to casual fans too. As Batgirl is currently sporting purple too, going back to the 90's costume may seem a bit confusing and redundant.


Eh, I'm kind of against simplifying the costume even more; while the Cooke design's simplicity lends itself way to being instantly recognizable, it's also somewhat unimaginative and boring in the wrong artist's hands. Taking away the biker cowl only to replace it with yet another domino mask and costume cat ears would lean itself to a more pathetic visual than I'd like. At least the Cook suit adds a biker chic to the clichéd skin-tight leather look that so many "dangerous adventuress" characters have, which gives Selina a bit more of a unique aesthetic and has some pop-culture ties to being rough and tumble.

Personally, I would like some kind of redesign that takes the suit back to a bit more "costume" than just cat-suit. It is a little odd that Catwoman got no redesign when just about everyone else did, though someone did argue that New 52 Catwoman's new look was a higher percentage of appearances with her zipper pulled down. The advantage of both the 90's and 00's looks are their simplicity; the 70's-80's dress may have a bit more aesthetic appeal and be more eye catching, but the purple suit and biker catsuit both look more practical. The purple suits biggest problem is that it's to easy for an artist to draw it to be basically just a fetish outfit, but the color does give it a bit more aesthetic appeal to me.

I'd love to see some mix of the two styles, though I'd love to see her cowl have the mask integrated.

----------


## Atlanta96

I'm usually against comics copying movies, but I wouldn't mind if they gave her something like the Batman Returns look. Like, her current outfit gets torn up in a fight, and Selina decides to just stick it back together because it has sentimental value instead of getting a new one. They could also make her character a little more edgy and psychological to match the new look, which could be an interesting direction if done right. Cause let's face it, Selina really needs a new direction.

----------


## tbgo

Cooke's design was trying too hard to come up with something new. It also didn't make any sense. I mean, the cap she pulls out just happened to have ears in it??! I'm also tired of the goggles. The whole thing has waaay too much going on. It's time to get back to basics. I also hate the flat boots.

----------


## Michael24

In case anybody is interested, the Rock Candy Catwoman figure (while an SDCC exclusive) is also going to be available from Hot Topic starting tomorrow.

----------


## vitaminbee

> Cooke's design was trying too hard to come up with something new. It also didn't make any sense. I mean, the cap she pulls out just happened to have ears in it??! I'm also tired of the goggles. The whole thing has waaay too much going on. It's time to get back to basics. I also hate the flat boots.


It looked great when Cooke and Stewart drew it. I don't get why you are criticizing the cap as she could still edit the outfit before putting it on... Oh and flat boots? You'd rather her running across rooftops in 6 inch heels?

----------


## tbgo

> It looked great when Cooke and Stewart drew it. I don't get why you are criticizing the cap as she could still edit the outfit before putting it on... Oh and flat boots? You'd rather her running across rooftops in 6 inch heels?


It's a comic. The boots now look bland.

----------


## godisawesome

Heels would look bland too.

I've been curious is those toed-shoes would be a cool movie footwear for either Catwoman or Nightwing. What do you guys think?

----------


## Caivu

Superheroines wearing heels is something the entire industry should've tossed into a fire decades ago for how flagrantly stupid it is.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Superheroines wearing heels is something the entire industry should've tossed into a fire decades ago for how flagrantly stupid it is.


I don't mind it for flying characters like Storm or Starfire but I can't take Catwoman in heels seriously.

I kind of like how in Batman Returns, you can see Michelle Pfeiffers stunt double jumping around in flat shoes, and then Pfeiffer will spontaneously change into 5 inch heels in the next shot. It's ridiculous.

----------


## tbgo

> I don't mind it for flying characters like Storm or Starfire but I can't take Catwoman in heels seriously.
> 
> I kind of like how in Batman Returns, you can see Michelle Pfeiffers stunt double jumping around in flat shoes, and then Pfeiffer will spontaneously change into 5 inch heels in the next shot. It's ridiculous.


Pfeiffer did all her scenes in heels. She jumped from ledge to ledge and kickboxed in heels. Never once did she wear flats. It's something Tim Burton, Pfeiffer's trainer Kathy Long, and her stunt-double, Patricia Peters were all so impressed by. The only time heels weren't used were by her double for the backflipping and cartwheeling scenes (done by Peters). Michelle jumped and landed on her feet without a care in the word in heels.

----------


## tbgo

> Heels would look bland too.
> 
> I've been curious is those toed-shoes would be a cool movie footwear for either Catwoman or Nightwing. What do you guys think?


I'm not talking high stilettos, but I'm tired of the biker look. Giving her a "bit of a heel" would be good. Nothing major. I want her streamlined and eye-popping (NO GOGGLES!). Cooke's design has to go. This is the longest design she's had now.

----------


## 16 Bit

I like Catwoman in heels. It's in character for her.

----------


## vitaminbee

I get that heels are her thing from the 90's but it's so unbelievable for a successful cat burglar to wear them. She needs something she can slip by people without making a noise and being able to scale a building or run away from an enemy. 




> Pfeiffer did all her scenes in heels. She jumped from ledge to ledge and kickboxed in heels. Never once did she wear flats. It's something Tim Burton, Pfeiffer's trainer Kathy Long, and her stunt-double, Patricia Peters were all so impressed by. The only time heels weren't used were by her double for the backflipping and cartwheeling scenes (done by Peters). Michelle jumped and landed on her feet without a care in the word in heels.


You make it sound like she was doing intense scenes in heels. She landed into a shot with them and wore them when she only had to walk and it was visible on screen. Even Anne's Catwoman switches from various heel heights depending on the scene. She wears 3 different heels during the rooftop fight alone.

----------


## vitaminbee

Also... Could this possibly be the new Catwoman design from Jock's IG?
Screen Shot 2016-07-30 at 5.42.47 PM.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Also... Could this possibly be the new Catwoman design from Jock's IG?
> Screen Shot 2016-07-30 at 5.42.47 PM.jpg


If it is, then they're just going back to her 90s look with the thigh high boots and gloves, but keeping everything else from her current design. That would be disappointing.

----------


## 16 Bit

That costume has potential. I like the boots and gloves. I want to see a clearer view of the eye part, cause I really like the goggles giving the cat eye appearance but I wouldn't mind a change.

As for the practicality of heels, I assume Selina is good enough that she's used to it. It's never taken me out of a story. It's a stylistic character choice that's worth it, like most parts of a super hero's costume. I mean those bladed boots Anne Hathaway had were awesome!

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Heels are stupid for any character that relies on athletics, agility, physicality to function, and this definitely applies to Catwoman. She should just go barefoot(with protective layer of foot covering with grip). Toe-shoes, as some have come to call it. Although it's anything but a shoe.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I could've. It all starts with Paul Dini and his treatment of the two characters. Coupled with the Nu52's mishandling of Selina, Paul Dini's influence on the DC universe is immense. 
> 
> Also, as the person above stated, the lack of fun. At some point, writers forgot that Selina is a fun-loving girl, a bit arrogant, always quippy and quotable, and never needs anybody.


To add to my post, Bruce Timm is clearly a Batman/Batgirl shipper. This further caused Selina to be pushed to the background in the cartoon. So now Selina has to compete with both Barbara and Harley.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I thought Genevieve Valentine's run was fantastic. It was a bit of a departure from typical Catwoman stories, but Selina was still recognizable as the same character she always was.
> 
> Catwoman is such a great character who can be placed in almost any type of story... I don't understand how DC can't seem to capitalize on that.


What??? Please tell me, what about her version of Selina was recognizable to you? Because I saw none of it.

----------


## 16 Bit

Anyone play Telltale's Batman game yet? I'm probably going to this weekend. Cannot wait. Love Telltale's games and I hear Catwoman is cool in it.

----------


## godisawesome

I was going to buy and play it this morning... But then I found out the XBOX 360 version isn't released yet. :Mad: 

However, we live in the day and age of YouTube, so I went ahead an watched a play through. Definitely digging this version of Selina, particularly in the little chat she and Bruce have once they deduce each other's identities. Am I alone in thinking that the voice actress seems to be emulating Adrienne Barbeau's voice work?

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Anyone play Telltale's Batman game yet? I'm probably going to this weekend. Cannot wait. Love Telltale's games and I hear Catwoman is cool in it.


Selina is pretty awesome in it, though I don't quite agree with her design in and out of costume. Regardless, she still comes off as a badass.

----------


## byrd156

> Anyone play Telltale's Batman game yet? I'm probably going to this weekend. Cannot wait. Love Telltale's games and I hear Catwoman is cool in it.


I finished it a little bit ago, it's awesome. I really like Catwoman's design in the game and kicks some serious ass. It seems like she's going to be a major player in the rest of the series which I'm excited about.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

What has changed about Selina's personality between now and the 90's version?

----------


## Punisher007

> I don't mind it for flying characters like Storm or Starfire but I can't take Catwoman in heels seriously.
> 
> I kind of like how in Batman Returns, you can see Michelle Pfeiffers stunt double jumping around in flat shoes, and then Pfeiffer will spontaneously change into 5 inch heels in the next shot. It's ridiculous.


I think that they're also acceptable for characters who don't really rely on athleticism/hand to hand combat/jumping/moving around a lot (like say Zatanna or Emma Frost , etc).  But for characters like Selina, where they're athleticism and ability to move quickly and fight if needed, heels just look dumb and are impractical.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Superhero costumes are just impractical in general. I like Catwoman in heels because it fits her seductive look.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Superhero costumes are just impractical in general. I like Catwoman in heels because it fits her seductive look.


She can be seductive without heels.

Can we please talk about something other than her appearance?

----------


## Atlanta96

> She can be seductive without heels.
> 
> Can we please talk about something other than her appearance?


She's not really in any comics at the moment so it's hard to talk about anything besides her appearance.

How about this, who should write the next Catwoman ongoing series? I think Tim Seeley could do a good job. He can make a series raunchy and provocative without devaluing the characters or story, and is doing a great job reinvigorating Nightwing and could probably do the same for Selina. Artist should be Guillem March or Emanuela Luppacino.

----------


## millernumber1

> She's not really in any comics at the moment so it's hard to talk about anything besides her appearance.
> 
> How about this, who should write the next Catwoman ongoing series? I think Tim Seeley could do a good job. He can make a series raunchy and provocative without devaluing the characters or story, and is doing a great job reinvigorating Nightwing and could probably do the same for Selina. Artist should be Guillem March or Emanuela Luppacino.


A Seeley/Luppacino Catwoman would be amazing! He's got a perfect tone for it, and her art is truly fantastic.

----------


## klynn

> A Seeley/Luppacino Catwoman would be amazing! He's got a perfect tone for it, and her art is truly fantastic.


I could get on board with that.  I'd also really like to see Frank Tierri on the book again.  Another thought is Joelle Jones, who just signed an exclusive with DC, on art or writing and art.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I dug Inaki Miranda's art for Tieri's run, but Tieri himself was a tad too generic feeling to carry a whole series. I'd be down for Joelle Jones, Tim Seeley has also been on my radar for Catwoman ever since he did her Zero Year issue. I think he's too big for DC to "waste" him on Catwoman though  :Frown: 

Talking about her appearance, I really liked how Telltale updated Selina's look for their Batman game. The pixie cut needed to go like yesterday.

cwtt.jpg

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I could get on board with that.  I'd also really like to see Frank Tierri on the book again.  Another thought is Joelle Jones, who just signed an exclusive with DC, on art or writing and art.


Wasn't Frank Tieri's run unpopular? 

I think a big problem with how Catwoman is written is she lacks the confidence she used to have. It's all drama these days. On top of that, wishy washy morals can be offensive to some people, especially in female characters. I think she should be a full blown villain femme-fatale for awhile. Another problem I think is that DC doesn't want to go all out on Selina's sexuality because she's Batman's main love interest. I say make her a former prostitute, and make her promiscuous. Make her confident, and even a bit arrogant. Make her crack jokes, and the occasional groaner in the form of a cat pun. At the same time, add an element of goodness to her that doesn't clash with her amoral nature. For instance she's a criminal by night, but she works for charity by day. In fact, make her into a Robin Hood type of thief. Also, she should be insanely intelligent, rivaling Bruce Wayne in wit. She should also occasionally make a fool out of Batman.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Here's some of Luppacchino's work:4972f3ad2502f93647d0e25f5beec2a4.jpg
black_cat_by_manulupac-d4ju5ai.jpg
emanuela_lupacchino_catwoman_2_by_club_batman-d4c64w8.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Another Lupacchio. Its pretty good.
tumblr_lerxaxLxuF1qzmfk8o1_500.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I could get on board with that.  I'd also really like to see Frank Tierri on the book again.  Another thought is Joelle Jones, who just signed an exclusive with DC, on art or writing and art.





> I dug Inaki Miranda's art for Tieri's run, but Tieri himself was a tad too generic feeling to carry a whole series. I'd be down for Joelle Jones, Tim Seeley has also been on my radar for Catwoman ever since he did her Zero Year issue. I think he's too big for DC to "waste" him on Catwoman though 
> 
> Talking about her appearance, I really liked how Telltale updated Selina's look for their Batman game. The pixie cut needed to go like yesterday.
> 
> cwtt.jpg





> Wasn't Frank Tieri's run unpopular? 
> 
> I think a big problem with how Catwoman is written is she lacks the confidence she used to have. It's all drama these days. On top of that, wishy washy morals can be offensive to some people, especially in female characters. I think she should be a full blown villain femme-fatale for awhile. Another problem I think is that DC doesn't want to go all out on Selina's sexuality because she's Batman's main love interest. I say make her a former prostitute, and make her promiscuous. Make her confident, and even a bit arrogant. Make her crack jokes, and the occasional groaner in the form of a cat pun. At the same time, add an element of goodness to her that doesn't clash with her amoral nature. For instance she's a criminal by night, but she works for charity by day. In fact, make her into a Robin Hood type of thief. Also, she should be insanely intelligent, rivaling Bruce Wayne in wit. She should also occasionally make a fool out of Batman.


Yeah, I really disliked Tieri's run after Valentine's run was cut short. Not only was it incredibly generic, but it also took a giant dumb of garbage all over what Valentine had done for no good reason. But I was surprised at how strong Inaki's art was after how terrible the art was in Birds of Prey #10.

I like the idea of a Robin Hood Selina, but I'm not super interested in someone who has no serious relationships. I think Selina is best when she's torn because of her love for someone, whether it's Bruce, Slam, Eiko, or whoever.




> Here's some of Luppacchino's work:4972f3ad2502f93647d0e25f5beec2a4.jpg
> black_cat_by_manulupac-d4ju5ai.jpg
> emanuela_lupacchino_catwoman_2_by_club_batman-d4c64w8.jpg





> Another Lupacchio. Its pretty good.
> tumblr_lerxaxLxuF1qzmfk8o1_500.jpg


Lupa art is best art  :Smile:

----------


## Huntsman1117

I agree with TsukiSentinel in that Catwoman needs more confidence, intelligence, wit, and sass. I think she needs to also be more competent and victorious. She rarely wins a fight against other superheroes & villains as a guest or secondary character in other books, such as the Injustice video game story and comic series.
Perhaps she needs to endure harder, more advanced training from a powerful & renowned martial artist or even an assassin. She would also benefit from a weapons & tools upgrade. A retractible grappling hook, for example, is essential for a cat-burglar. Ultimately we need to see her defeat more superheroes & villains in battle. DC comics owe her that after years of making her weak and lame.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I also like the idea of her being a major vixen who is also charitable, particularly helping the poor, pursecuted, and animals.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Something that could make Catwoman's outfit a little sexier & different from Black Widow's or Black Cat's are slashes in her catsuit or leotard. Something like this:

s-l225.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Or this 

2016-Summer-Black-Cutout-Off-Shoulder-Leatherette-Jumpsuit-LC60870-Lady-Slash-Neck-Black-PU-Leat.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Maybe she shouldn't cover her whole head. Maybe just add some high-tech cat ears that function as a headphone earpiece, and a detector for small sounds, vibrations, and frequencies. 

cat_woman_by_leomatos2014-d7u4ncn.jpg

----------


## John Venus

> Something that could make Catwoman's outfit a little sexier & different from Black Widow's or Black Cat's are slashes in her catsuit or leotard. Something like this:
> 
> s-l225.jpg


It's called a catsuit for a reason, brah.  She's the OG, she's got no reason to change the outfit when it works so well as it already is.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Here's some of Luppacchino's work:Attachment 38921
> Attachment 38922
> Attachment 38923






> Another Lupacchio. Its pretty good.
> Attachment 38924


Looks amateurish. I guess that's too harsh, but it does look like watered-down Adam Hughes. 




> Yeah, I really disliked Tieri's run after Valentine's run was cut short. Not only was it incredibly generic, but it also took a giant dumb of garbage all over what Valentine had done for no good reason. But I was surprised at how strong Inaki's art was after how terrible the art was in Birds of Prey #10.
> 
> I like the idea of a Robin Hood Selina, but I'm not super interested in someone who has no serious relationships. I think Selina is best when she's torn because of her love for someone, whether it's Bruce, Slam, Eiko, or whoever.


I thought Valentine's run was awful. She didn't know how to write Selina, so she wrote some weird philosopher character who quoted ancient dictators. On top of that, she sapped all the fun out of Selina, and never put her in the suit. I can only conclude that Valetine wasn't writing Selina. 

I never said she would have NO relationships, but she should have a secret identity that actually IS a secret to everyone, even those closest to her. 




> Something that could make Catwoman's outfit a little sexier & different from Black Widow's or Black Cat's are slashes in her catsuit or leotard. Something like this:
> 
> s-l225.jpg





> Or this 
> 
> 2016-Summer-Black-Cutout-Off-Shoulder-Leatherette-Jumpsuit-LC60870-Lady-Slash-Neck-Black-PU-Leat.jpg


I hope you're not offended by this, but that is the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. It was dumb in the Catwoman movie, and would be dumb in the comics. 

I would lose respect for Catwoman if she wore something like that. It is that bad. 




> It's called a catsuit for a reason, brah.  She's the OG, she's got no reason to change the outfit when it works so well as it already is.


Actually, I think she should go back to the purple once-piece. However, John Venus is right. Catwoman is the original. She doesn't need to out-do Black Cat or Black Widow. 

Also, for the record, I LOVE the pixie hair. I thought she looked very generic in the Telltale game.

----------


## Caivu

> I agree with TsukiSentinel in that Catwoman needs more confidence, intelligence, wit, and sass. I think she needs to also be more competent and victorious. She rarely wins a fight against other superheroes & villains as a guest or secondary character in other books, such as the Injustice video game story and comic series.
> Perhaps she needs to endure harder, more advanced training from a powerful & renowned martial artist or even an assassin. She would also benefit from a weapons & tools upgrade. A retractible grappling hook, for example, is essential for a cat-burglar. Ultimately we need to see her defeat more superheroes & villains in battle. DC comics owe her that after years of making her weak and lame.


I'm not sure I like the idea of making her an advanced fighter. Don't get me wrong, she should still be able to handle herself, but I've always seen her as being more focused on stealth, evasion, and agility; as someone who is skilled with specialized equipment and primarily gets by on her wits, not her fists.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> It's called a catsuit for a reason, brah.  She's the OG, she's got no reason to change the outfit when it works so well as it already is.


While Catwoman is definitely the OG, the black catsuit isn't originally hers. It was worn by Miss Fury (1941), Emma Peel (1961), Black Widow (1971), and Black Cat (1979) long before Catwoman began wearing one of her own in the comics (1987) which was actually grey. The exception is Julie Newmar's costume (1966) which Catwoman wore briefly in the comics, although it was colored green. Catwoman mostly wore a pink gown from the 40's til the 80's, briefly wore a grey catsuit in the late 80's til early 90's, then a purple catsuit through the rest of the 90's. The black catsuit isn't her signature look, and because Black Widow and Black Cat are wearing almost the exact same thing, Catwoman should switch it up and have a unique look of her own.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> I'm not sure I like the idea of making her an advanced fighter. Don't get me wrong, she should still be able to handle herself, but I've always seen her as being more focused on stealth, evasion, and agility; as someone who is skilled with specialized equipment and primarily gets by on her wits, not her fists.


I agree with you a little here. Catwoman should rely more on her gymnastics ability, reflexes, stealth, and smarts when dealing with a confrontation instead of her fists and brute force. It would also be cool if she had her own unique style of fighting instead of fighting with a disciplined style as instructed by someone else. 
However the fact remains that Catwoman is defeated more often than not these days when she is confronted by another hero or villain. She appears to be unable to fend for herself successfully, and has to be rescued by Batman, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, and Killer Croc. It's very disappointing. In the 90's Catwoman thrived on her own, took down many villains on her own, never had to be rescued by anyone, and would never become friends with or dependent on murderers like Ivy, Harley, or Croc. Catwoman needs to become more competent, victorious, and less reliant on others.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Catwoman is in Batman #10 in November. She is on the cover. She is illustrated well but did not get a costume upgrade.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> I'm not sure I like the idea of making her an advanced fighter. Don't get me wrong, she should still be able to handle herself, but I've always seen her as being more focused on stealth, evasion, and agility; as someone who is skilled with specialized equipment and primarily gets by on her wits, not her fists.


I've always thought she would be good at uncoordinated bar fighting but not much else. It would make sense for her to fight literally like a cornered feral cat, not a Judo master.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I've always thought she would be good at uncoordinated bar fighting but not much else. It would make sense for her to fight literally like a cornered feral cat, not a Judo master.


But she's not a cat . . . . 

She was trained by Wildcat and O-sensei to fight. She's not going to be an amateur.

----------


## Caivu

> But she's not a cat . . . . 
> 
> She was trained by Wildcat and O-sensei to fight. She's not going to be an amateur.


In this continuity?

And is Wildcat really _that_ good of a fighter anyway? He's a fantastic boxer (and probably the best in the word) but what else does he have? That's a serious question, because I honestly don't know. He seems like a starting point for many DC fighters, but that's about it. I know he's taken down some skilled fighters like the 12 Brothers in Silk, but that seemed to be more due to the fact that Ted's really friggin' tough.

She doesn't have to be an amateur. But just in pure hand-to-hand skills, having her anywhere close to Batman just seems wrong somehow.

----------


## Aahz

> But she's not a cat . . . . 
> 
> She was trained by Wildcat and O-sensei to fight. She's not going to be an amateur.


It was iirc the Armless Master and not the O-sensei. And thats probably not canonic in the new 52. 
I'm not even sure if it was still canonic in the end of the pre flashpoint continuity, since are her training by Wildcat and her training by the Armless Master come from two different origin stories that don't really fit with each other.

----------


## godisawesome

> In this continuity?
> 
> And is Wildcat really _that_ good of a fighter anyway? He's a fantastic boxer (and probably the best in the word) but what else does he have? That's a serious question, because I honestly don't know. He seems like a starting point for many DC fighters, but that's about it. I know he's taken down some skilled fighters like the 12 Brothers in Silk, but that seemed to be more due to the fact that Ted's really friggin' tough.
> 
> She doesn't have to be an amateur. But just in pure hand-to-hand skills, having her anywhere close to Batman just seems wrong somehow.


Wildcat _is_ traditionally that skilled in Post-Crisis continuity. He wasn't just a boxer; like every other martial artist hero at the time, he was supposed to be a master of several styles, albeit in his case all focused around punching people. By the 90's he wasn't necessarily a Tier 1 competition, but only just below it thanks to his savviness and pragmatic approach, and only then did they suggest he may have wound up with a literal 9 lives superpower, and that was more connected to his age.

Personally, I think Catwoman should be a dangerous and fighter, but not someone who wants to fight, and only just as skilled as she needs to be to trounce most mooks and stun Batman just long enough for her to take off and get away.

----------


## Punisher007

I like her being a skilled fighter.  It helps her hang with Batman more (also I totally picture him having given her at least some training himself).    

As for her costume, you don't have to have an overtly sexualize outfit, or show lots of skin, in order to have "sex appeal."  That's a distinction that sometimes gets lost it seems.  You're personality, how you carry yourself, etc all are much more important imo.

----------


## Caivu

Selina's going to be in a special election one shot this November. Can't post a link, sorry, but it's over on the DC forum.

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Selina's going to be in a special election one shot this November. Can't post a link, sorry, but it's over on the DC forum.


With Meredith Finch on writing duties.

I know, I know. Hold your applause. Sigh.

----------


## Atlanta96

> With Meredith Finch on writing duties.
> 
> I know, I know. Hold your applause. Sigh.


Oh. She's still around. I'm sure it will be...inspired.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Catwoman can't seem to get away from bad writing can she?  Perhaps this will be the book that proves M Finch can write.  Perhaps money will fall from the sky and land in my lap...who knows...

----------


## suemorphplus209

> Selina's going to be in a special election one shot this November. Can't post a link, sorry, but it's over on the DC forum.


I'd vote for her.  She's the prettiest thing in DC IMO, she's also the most realistic villain in DC too, I mean think about it.  Keeps the low profile, doesn't murder you know people by the thousands to make her a priority target, and so on.

----------


## Thirteen

> Selina's going to be in a special election one shot this November. Can't post a link, sorry, but it's over on the DC forum.


http://community.comicbookresources....t-quot-Special
With the finale of cult hit PREZ being presented in the same book, I'm unsure if this should be interpreted as a vote of confidence for Catwoman or if they are just burning off a standalone story and hoping for some mutual buzz to happen.

----------


## LostinFandom

> With the finale of cult hit PREZ being presented in the same book, I'm unsure if this should be interpreted as a vote of confidence for Catwoman or if they are just burning off a standalone story and hoping for some mutual buzz to happen.


There were several references to Selina /Catwoman throughout the series _Prez_ including appearing on the cover of an issue as graffiti . I think it's cute that they're combined.

----------


## ben c

there are references to selina/catwomn in every DC comic i've done.

----------


## Atlanta96

> With the finale of cult hit PREZ being presented in the same book, I'm unsure if this should be interpreted as a vote of confidence for Catwoman or if they are just burning off a standalone story and hoping for some mutual buzz to happen.


Probably the latter.

----------


## Caivu

Did anyone else read Sixpack and Dogwelder?
Selina was in that... I _think_.

----------


## Ticklefist

> there are references to selina/catwomn in every DC comic i've done.


Hopefully you get to work with her in an official capacity sometime.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

For the sake of curiosity and conversation:

1) What do you feel are Catwoman's defining characteristics?

- Femme fatale and sexy
- Free-spirit
- Independent and self-sufficient
- Cat puns and lame jokes
- Arrogance
- A soft spot for the less fortunate 
- Skilled thief
- Loner
- Doesn't take shit or orders from anyone
- Owns too many cats
- Thrill-seeker
- Content, if not happy
- Resourceful and intelligent 
- Manipulative and likes to push people's buttons
- Fun-loving and humorous

2) Is she one of the greatest female characters in comics?

She's certainly one of the oldest at 76 years old, but DC doesn't give her the respect she deserves, and they saddle her with bad writing.  

3) If not, do you feel she simply exists for the purpose of fan service?

I think many writers want to reduce her to solely being a temptress to Batman, and while I do think she should be sexy, some artists' idea of sexy make me roll my eyes, and I'm a straight guy.

4) What holds the character back? 

She's gone through many different changes, both in terms of origin and appearance. I think this holds her back. Harley Quinn has benefited immensely from an iconic origin story and an iconic appearance(despite going through many changes in costume). Catwoman can't claim the same. Writers never give her an iconic origin, and her origin is never relevant. Likewise, artists can't seem to agree on what she looks like. Many artists even forget that she's supposed to have green eyes, not blue or brown. 

On top of that, Catwoman often times doesn't feel like the center of her own story. While I enjoy Batcat, and the Gotham City Sirens, Catwoman needs to stand on her own two feet. It's a part of her personality. If either Batman, Harley, or Ivy make an appearance, they need to play second fiddle to her. 

In the same vein, she needs her own friends, her own booty-calls(other than Batman, because we all know she gets around), and her own hobbies and quirks. 

The problem I sometimes see with Catwoman is that she's often times poorly defined as a character when she's by herself. What does Selina Kyle do when she's not Catwoman? Who does she hang out with? There's still so much about her we don't know. In fact, what's the difference between Catwoman and Selina Kyle? The answer is none. Her secret identity serves almost no purpose as far as her behavior is concerned. Catwoman goes to sleep as Selina Kyle, but she wakes up as Catwoman. That's how irrelevant her actual identity compared to Catwoman. 

She's not like Bruce Wayne, who literally has two different personas - his true self(Batman) and his disguise(billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne). 

Meanwhile, which female characters have flourished? Those that we've been given an in depth look at - Harley Quinn, and Batgirl. Perhaps even Poison Ivy in the future.

----------


## Caivu

> For the sake of curiosity and conversation:
> 
> 1) What do you feel are Catwoman's defining characteristics?
> *
> - Femme fatale and sexy
> - Free-spirit
> - Independent and self-sufficient
> - Cat puns and lame jokes*
> - Arrogance
> ...


I bolded all the traits I see in her. I don't consider her arrogant, since to me that clashes with her concern for the less fortunate. As for being manipulative: I think it's definitely a skill she has and can use when needed, but it doesn't strike me as a core trait. I added an asterisk by the "doesn't take orders" part because while I think that's mostly true of her, it's flexible in the right circumstances; Selina's not evil, after all.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I bolded all the traits I see in her. I don't consider her arrogant, since to me that clashes with her concern for the less fortunate. As for being manipulative: I think it's definitely a skill she has and can use when needed, but it doesn't strike me as a core trait. I added an asterisk by the "doesn't take orders" part because while I think that's mostly true of her, it's flexible in the right circumstances; Selina's not evil, after all.


What does arrogance have to do with compassion?

What does not taking orders have to do with morals?

----------


## Caivu

> What does arrogance have to do with compassion?
> 
> What does not taking orders have to do with morals?


In my experience, arrogant people are not compassionate people. There's no overlap. Having one precludes having the other. Arrogance means thinking oneself superior, while compassion means thinking of others. They're contradictory.

I'm saying that under the right circumstances, Selina would be willing to help out as part of a team and follow someone else's lead, particularly if her skillset came in handy. She's done it before.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think Selina's arrogant, but I think she does have a lot of pride, as a woman, as a thief, and in her capabilities.

----------


## Caivu

> I don't think Selina's arrogant, but I think she does have a lot of pride, as a woman, as a thief, and in her capabilities.


This. She's confident, but not arrogant.

----------


## Thirteen

> there are references to selina/catwomn in every DC comic i've done.


That does it then...Ben Caldwell for Catwoman Rebirth!

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Hopefully you get to work with her in an official capacity sometime.


I hope so as well. His art looks like it would be a lot of fun in a Catwoman-centric story.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> In my experience, arrogant people are not compassionate people. There's no overlap. Having one precludes having the other. Arrogance means thinking oneself superior, while compassion means thinking of others. They're contradictory.
> 
> I'm saying that under the right circumstances, Selina would be willing to help out as part of a team and follow someone else's lead, particularly if her skillset came in handy. She's done it before.


No, they're not mutually exclusive, because arrogance doesn't mean you think you're better than other people. It means you think you're better than you actually are, or that there aren't any consequences  to your actions. This has nothing to do with compassion. 

Selina most definitely is arrogant. She thinks she can survive all by herself, using her wits and her wiles. Her arrogance is one of her hallmarks. When she put the moves on Nightwing. When Hugo was interviewing her in Arkham City(you can listen to it on a recorded tape in her profile) her exact words were "who could resist all this." She overestimates her abilities, thinking she can break into a spot and break out within 24 hours, then later laments it actually taking her 48 hours. 

There is literally no iteration of Catwoman that hasn't been arrogant.

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## Caivu

> No, they're not mutually exclusive, because arrogance doesn't mean you think you're better than other people. It means you think you're better than you actually are, or that there aren't any consequences  to your actions. This has nothing to do with compassion.


I don't tend to like busting out the ol' Merriam-Webster, but it disagrees with you:

"an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

(Edit, because I'm a complete jerk  :Stick Out Tongue: : Cambridge does, too: 

"proud in an unpleasant way and behaving as if you are better or more important than other people"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/d...glish/arrogant)

That doesn't mean your definition's wrong, but it's _a_ definition, not _the_ definition. Plus, it's kinda hair-splitty anyway.




> Selina most definitely is arrogant. She thinks she can survive all by herself, using her wits and her wiles. Her arrogance is one of her hallmarks.


I disagree. She _is_ capable of surviving on her own using her skills, so it's not like she has some kind of exaggerated sense of it.




> When she put the moves on Nightwing.


I'm not sure what this refers to or why it matters.




> When Hugo was interviewing her in Arkham City(you can listen to it on a recorded tape in her profile) her exact words were "who could resist all this." She overestimates her abilities, thinking she can break into a spot and break out within 24 hours, then later laments it actually taking her 48 hours.


None of that sounds like arrogance to me.




> There is literally no iteration of Catwoman that hasn't been arrogant.


Are you sure? Because I can think of at least one.

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## powerelizabeth

Yeah, catwomen is so like.................cat  :Smile: )

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## powerelizabeth

No like buttom in here but I want to give like to you

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## TsukiSentinel

> I don't tend to like busting out the ol' Merriam-Webster, but it disagrees with you:
> 
> "an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people"
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance
> 
> (Edit, because I'm a complete jerk : Cambridge does, too: 
> 
> "proud in an unpleasant way and behaving as if you are better or more important than other people"
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/d...glish/arrogant)
> ...


Fair enough, but I still agree with my definition of arrogance, and I think Catwoman fits it.

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## Dominick1216

I'm just curious, but does anyone believe that Batman was actually the father to Selina's baby, Helena, in the Pre-Flashpoint comics?

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## Caivu

> I'm just curious, but does anyone believe that Batman was actually the father to Selina's baby, Helena, in the Pre-Flashpoint comics?


Yes...? Why wouldn't he be?

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## SneakyLookingSort

I read an interview some time ago where Brubaker stated he had planned Helena's father to be either Bruce Wayne or Slam Bradley. Yes, Sam Bradley *SR*. Some of these plot points were picked up by later writers including Holly becoming Catwoman (Selina was going to die originally).

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## Dominick1216

> Yes...? Why wouldn't he be?


Because the idiots who were in charge of the _Catwoman_ series during the time made Sam Bradley, Slam Bradley's son, the father of Catwoman's baby. She was conceived during the _52_ series. They left it a mystery for a while to drive sales up. But when it was finally revealed, people were pissed and the sales dropped. They eventually had Bruce help Selina place her baby up for adoption.

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## Dominick1216

> I read an interview some time ago where Brubaker stated he had planned Helena's father to be either Bruce Wayne or Slam Bradley. Yes, Sam Bradley *SR*. Some of these plot points were picked up by later writers including Holly becoming Catwoman (Selina was going to die originally).


Oh really? They definitely should have made Bruce the father. Why would you the name the baby Helena, and the not have the father be Bruce? Deep down, I feel like he is actually the father.

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## SneakyLookingSort

> Oh really? They definitely should have made Bruce the father. Why would you the name the baby Helena, and the not have the father be Bruce? Deep down, I feel like he is actually the father.


Yeah, it was supposed to be left ambiguous whether her father was Bruce or Slam. And definitely not Sam Bradley Jr.

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## Dominick1216

> Yeah, it was supposed to be left ambiguous whether her father was Bruce or Slam. And definitely not Sam Bradley Jr.


They really messed up on that. Catwoman never even had a thing with Sam. It makes no sense.

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## brucekent12

I remember how much interest there wasfor that particular arc at my lcs. I thought Bruce should be the father as well!

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## powerelizabeth

> That does it then...Ben Caldwell for Catwoman Rebirth!


Awsome art
__________________________________________________  __________________________________________________  __________________________________________________  _
how to treat cellulitis of the foot at home
how to get rid of bad breath naturally

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## Dominick1216

> I remember how much interest there wasfor that particular arc at my lcs. I thought Bruce should be the father as well!


He could still be the father. You never know...

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## TsukiSentinel

I've found the woman of my dreams. I'm not a fan of the changes they made to her in the second pic though. They made her skin darker, and large round cheeks less prominent. The third is the same as the second but with different lighting. Regardless, a beautiful face. This is how I imagine Selina to look in my mind. 

Based on art by Adam Hughes, and I believe the sculptor is Mark Newman. Yet to be released under Sideshow Collectibles.

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## Bosch

I haven't picked up any Bat books yet. Has Selina popped up since Rebirth?

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## Caivu

> I haven't picked up any Bat books yet. Has Selina popped up since Rebirth?


Nope. Batman #10 is the earliest we know for sure.

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## Bosch

Say what you will about its impracticalities (and there are several), but Tim Sale's rendering of this costume has got to be my favorite.

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## LimeBright

I don't know what is people's obsession with practicality. It's a comic book. You have Catwoman roof hopping and swinging off Gotham's roofs with a _whip_. It's not that deep. High heels can work if it's in decent inches that won't be a detriment to her thievery, and if anything, the heels can have silencers. Combat boots are not "practical" either. They are heavy and can make just as much noise.

[IMG]https://cdnb3.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/000/196/303/large/kenneth-doyle-catwoman5.jpg?1443932305[/IMG]



This is a very interesting take on her outfit. And I like the idea that you could bring back the purple, but not completely forgo the black.

On another topic, I want long haired Selina back. The short hair has been stale and not all artists are able to depict it well. The character needs to go back to her roots. _Attractive_ (they depict her so manly-like sometimes, it's just...no), a thief with moral codes, intelligent, master of her craft, snarky/sarcastic, fun, and free spirited. And not so much into Batman's arse (BatCat shippers will disagree with me on this and this is coming from someone who loves them together, she's Batman's most iconic love interest, but it's time to server some attachment). The only modern portrayal I've been satisfied with so far is Arkham verse Catwoman/Selina Kyle. Geezus, I love her. So in control of herself.

Not sure how Rebirth is going to work for her future.

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## Bosch

Sure, but wearing _bangles_ when your modus operandi is stealthy infiltration is even more comical than 4" heels. I can't help but love it, though. And I agree with some of your sentiment. For me, what's been missing most from Selina is her theatricality and the sense that she was having _fun_. I think we lost that somewhere around the New 52 and never quite got it back.

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## LimeBright

> Sure, but wearing _bangles_ when your modus operandi is stealthy infiltration is even more comical than 4' heels. I can't help but love it, though. And I agree with some of your sentiment. For me, what's been missing most from Selina is her theatricality and the sense that she was having _fun_. I think we lost that somewhere around the New 52 and never quite got it back.


Okay, good point, lol.

I haven't fully caught up. How's the Rebirth representation looking so far?

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## Atlanta96

> I don't know what is people's obsession with practicality. It's a comic book. You have Catwoman roof hopping and swinging off Gotham's roofs with a _whip_. It's not that deep. High heels can work if it's in decent inches that won't be a detriment to her thievery, and if anything, the heels can have silencers. Combat boots are not "practical" either. They are heavy and can make just as much noise.
> 
> [IMG]https://cdnb3.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/000/196/303/large/kenneth-doyle-catwoman5.jpg?1443932305[/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting take on her outfit. And I like the idea that you could bring back the purple, but not completely forgo the black.
> 
> On another topic, I want long haired Selina back. The short hair has been stale and not all artists are able to depict it well. The character needs to go back to her roots. _Attractive_ (they depict her so manly-like sometimes, it's just...no), a thief with moral codes, intelligent, master of her craft, snarky/sarcastic, fun, and free spirited. And not so much into Batman's arse (BatCat shippers will disagree with me on this and this is coming from someone who loves them together, she's Batman's most iconic love interest, but it's time to server some attachment). The only modern portrayal I've been satisfied with so far is Arkham verse Catwoman/Selina Kyle. Geezus, I love her. So in control of herself.
> ...


I like that design a lot, but with a few complaints. I'm sure lots of fans don't want this but I think they should keep the goggles. I always liked the goggles. And the design feels a little uneven since it's meant to be a more practical and realistic design, but the bright purple and long flowing hair kind of contradict that. It should either be all practical like her current costume, or not practical at all like the 90s design or Batman Returns Catwoman.

I'd still like to see that costume but with a few changes made.

And I agree that the main problem with Selina nowadays is her lack of personality. I think writers were/are afraid of making her too energetic or mischievous or flirtatious out of fear of Catwoman being labeled a "male sex fantasy" or some other misguided criticism. Yeah they screwed up with the early New 52 series but that was because of bad writing, the actual tone of the book had some potential and could have set a great precedent for the character with a better writer.

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## Bosch

She'll show up for sure in Batman #10, since she's on the cover. Other than that, I have no idea. And Gail Simone recently tweeted that she's working on something Big Two and cat related, but that could be a number of things.

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## LimeBright

> She'll show up for sure in Batman #10, since she's on the cover. Other than that, I have no idea. And Gail Simone recently tweeted that she's working on something Big Two and cat related, but that could be a number of things.


Doable, we'll see how she's handled there. I'm in the camp that feels she needs a good break until someone comes on board that knows how to do her properly.

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## tbgo

> I like that design a lot, but with a few complaints. I'm sure lots of fans don't want this but I think they should keep the goggles. I always liked the goggles. And the design feels a little uneven since it's meant to be a more practical and realistic design, but the bright purple and long flowing hair kind of contradict that. It should either be all practical like her current costume, or not practical at all like the 90s design or Batman Returns Catwoman.
> 
> I'd still like to see that costume but with a few changes made.
> 
> And I agree that the main problem with Selina nowadays is her lack of personality. I think writers were/are afraid of making her too energetic or mischievous or flirtatious out of fear of Catwoman being labeled a "male sex fantasy" or some other misguided criticism. Yeah they screwed up with the early New 52 series but that was because of bad writing, the actual tone of the book had some potential and could have set a great precedent for the character with a better writer.


The goggles are horrendous. Streamline please. Sexy. Back to basics.

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## Atlanta96

> The goggles are horrendous. Streamline please. Sexy. Back to basics.


Depends on the artist, I guess. They looked pretty cool in Hush.

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## Frontier

I liked how, in The Batman, they colored them yellow. I thought that was pretty neat  :Smile: .




> She'll show up for sure in Batman #10, since she's on the cover. Other than that, I have no idea. And Gail Simone recently tweeted that she's working on something Big Two and cat related, but that could be a number of things.


Given her affinity with the character, I'm assuming it's Cat*man* related.

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## Caivu

> Given her affinity with the character, I'm assuming it's Cat*man* related.


She also said it's a character she's never written.

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## Frontier

> She also said it's a character she's never written.


Well, that also does rule out Selina, since I can definitely recall a few Catwoman guest spots in her Birds of Prey run.

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## Caivu

> Well, that also does rule out Selina, since I can definitely recall a few Catwoman guest spots in her Birds of Prey run.


She's also been using the the phrase "bring the thunder" quite a bit, so now some people are thinking it's a Thundercats book.

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## Agent Z

I'm actually surprised Gail's never written a Catwoman comic before.

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## Frontier

> She's also been using the the phrase "bring the thunder" quite a bit, so now some people are thinking it's a Thundercats book.


Now that would be something  :Wink: .




> I'm actually surprised Gail's never written a Catwoman comic before.


Me too. I'd read a Gail Simone Catwoman book in a heartbeat  :Smile: .

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## The Whovian

> The goggles are horrendous. Streamline please. Sexy. Back to basics.


I like the goggles. But then, I also like her other looks too.

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## LimeBright

> I like that design a lot, but with a few complaints. I'm sure lots of fans don't want this but I think they should keep the goggles. I always liked the goggles. And the design feels a little uneven since it's meant to be a more practical and realistic design, but the bright purple and long flowing hair kind of contradict that. It should either be all practical like her current costume, or not practical at all like the 90s design or Batman Returns Catwoman.
> 
> I'd still like to see that costume but with a few changes made.
> 
> And I agree that the main problem with Selina nowadays is her lack of personality. I think writers were/are afraid of making her too energetic or mischievous or flirtatious out of fear of Catwoman being labeled a "male sex fantasy" or some other misguided criticism. Yeah they screwed up with the early New 52 series but that was because of bad writing, the actual tone of the book had some potential and could have set a great precedent for the character with a better writer.


It's of course heavily based on Balent's costume (which I believe is _the_ most practical for a cat burglar, give or take the color). I don't think it's that bright a purple though. It can blend in with the moonlight, especially the more pastel, lighter purple. But that's not an issue because the long hair out of the cowl can completely be omitted and they can go for a more darker shade of violet. It's cut off, but they're heeled boots, which can also be worked into the shoes being flat footed. Those pictures are more of like a basis. My most favorite aspect out of it is the catbelt, lol.

If I knew how to I would totally pitch the person who did this with the art and outright say "CHANGE" to DC. Just to have them get _creative_.

I like the goggles. More specifically, the usage of them like in the Arkham verse when you get into night mode with Catwoman. It's a good tool to have when you're thieving by seeing whose around. And when she jumps off a building. If they're not going to utilize them properly however, I rather her not have it.

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## MajorHoy

By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hallmark will have a special Catwoman ornament based on the Julie Newmar 1960s TV show version of Catwoman.



http://www.hallmark.com/ornaments/ke...95QXE3091.html

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## Bosch

> It's of course heavily based on Balent's costume (which I believe is _the_ most practical for a cat burglar, give or take the color).


From my limited understanding of the subject, thigh-high boots are the furthest thing from practical for pretty much any activity, let alone scaling buildings and running from armed officers of the law.





> By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hallmark will have a special Catwoman ornament based on the Julie Newmar 1960s TV show version of Catwoman.


Looks good! Now if only Eartha Kitt's Catwoman got a little more merchandising love.

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## Caivu

> From my limited understanding of the subject, thigh-high boots are the furthest thing from practical for pretty much any activity, let alone scaling buildings and running from armed officers of the law.


Yup. The most practical footwear for Selina to wear on the job would be plain ol' sneakers.

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## Mutant God

I like the goggles because it makes her look she has cat eyes, which can see in the dark which is what the goggles help Selina do, see in the dark.

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## Atlanta96

> Yup. The most practical footwear for Selina to wear on the job would be plain ol' sneakers.


And that would look really unattractive especially with the skintight costume, so regular boots it is.

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## Bosch

> And that would look really unattractive especially with the skintight costume, so regular boots it is.


They could take the rubber soles down a notch, though. They do look a little loud.

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## LimeBright

> From my limited understanding of the subject, thigh-high boots are the furthest thing from practical for pretty much any activity, let alone scaling buildings and running from armed officers of the law.


Not at all, it depends on the material. I don't think in the Balent outfit she actually wore thigh-high _boots_. At least not the daily, fake leather ones.

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## Caivu

> And that would look really unattractive especially with the skintight costume, so regular boots it is.


Or tabi boots! Perfect compromise between the flexibility of a sneaker and the sturdiness of a regular boot. And there's a cat pun in there as a bonus.




> Not at all, it depends on the material.


I dunno, I think there's probably a pretty good reason people don't do parkour, or rock climb, or go jogging, or _do anything active at all_ while wearing them.

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## LimeBright

> I dunno, I think there's probably a pretty good reason people don't do parkour, or rock climb, or go jogging, or _do anything active at all_ while wearing them.


There's spandex and/or lycra variants. Take away the heel, and there's no reason why they can't be used.

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## Bosch

> There's spandex and/or lycra variants. Take away the heel, and there's no reason why they can't be used.


Heels or not, any footwear covering the ligaments behind the knee would be hyper restrictive. Useful in a flood, though.

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## TsukiSentinel

> I don't know what is people's obsession with practicality. It's a comic book. You have Catwoman roof hopping and swinging off Gotham's roofs with a _whip_. It's not that deep. High heels can work if it's in decent inches that won't be a detriment to her thievery, and if anything, the heels can have silencers. Combat boots are not "practical" either. They are heavy and can make just as much noise.
> 
> [IMG]https://cdnb3.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/000/196/303/large/kenneth-doyle-catwoman5.jpg?1443932305[/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting take on her outfit. And I like the idea that you could bring back the purple, but not completely forgo the black.
> 
> On another topic, I want long haired Selina back. The short hair has been stale and not all artists are able to depict it well. The character needs to go back to her roots. _Attractive_ (they depict her so manly-like sometimes, it's just...no), a thief with moral codes, intelligent, master of her craft, snarky/sarcastic, fun, and free spirited. And not so much into Batman's arse (BatCat shippers will disagree with me on this and this is coming from someone who loves them together, she's Batman's most iconic love interest, but it's time to server some attachment). The only modern portrayal I've been satisfied with so far is Arkham verse Catwoman/Selina Kyle. Geezus, I love her. So in control of herself.
> ...


I don't understand people's obsession with Catwoman wearing high heels, or combat-boots for that matter. In a Batman-character with no superpowers, realism is a must. 

Also, silenced high-heels? What the hell are those? 

As for the long hair, no. It would make her look too generic. The advantage of Harley's design is that it's iconic, unique and very easy to adapt to new styles because of its motif.

If you gave Catwoman long hair, she'd be less unique. The pixie-hair looks great, and I can't think of any other character that looks like her.

She definitely needs to be fun though.

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## TsukiSentinel

> And that would look really unattractive especially with the skintight costume, so regular boots it is.


There's a fourth option: bare-foot. 

And when I say bare-foot, I don't mean not covered, just no shoes at all.

Like this:

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## LimeBright

> I don't understand people's obsession with Catwoman wearing high heels, or combat-boots for that matter. In a Batman-character with no superpowers, realism is a must. 
> 
> Also, silenced high-heels? What the hell are those? 
> 
> As for the long hair, no. It would make her look too generic. The advantage of Harley's design is that it's iconic, unique and very easy to adapt to new styles because of its motif.
> 
> If you gave Catwoman long hair, she'd be less unique. The pixie-hair looks great, and I can't think of any other character that looks like her.
> 
> She definitely needs to be fun though.



It's a comic book, realism _isn't_ a must. We're talking about a world where you have lunatics like The Joker killing people almost every night, we have a powered female with control over plants, wait, she _is_ half plant. Catwoman herself uses a whip to swing and fight with. Wow, where do you see _that_ in the real world? You have women going out there fighting with corsets, or some half naked. Practicality is _not_ the norm, even in the Batman universe. Wanting things grounded on reality when the universe it's coming from is anything _but_ that, is rather nonsensical to me. Nolan himself had to mold his films to fit a certain equation of realism, and he got the Batman mythos. 

And the silenced heels are exactly what they are described as, nothing more, nothing less.

I also mean no offense to you, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether you find her having long hair generic. That's your opinion, and that's fine. I'm not here to convince you or anything. There will be others who disagree, me being one of them. I personally see her better with longer hair, not many artists can actually draw it well where it _looks_ attractive and less butch, and she could benefit away from the typical pixie cut (along with a change of costume). Her green eyes are enough. And really, having long hair and being like "the others" hasn't affected any female characters' individuality, agency, or recognition/popularity, so I can't see the issue.

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## Caivu

> It's a comic book, realism _isn't_ a must. We're talking about a world where you have lunatics like The Joker killing people almost every night, we have a powered female with control over plants, wait, she _is_ half plant. Catwoman herself uses a whip to swing and fight with. Wow, where do you see _that_ in the real world? You have women going out there fighting with corsets, or some half naked. Practicality is _not_ the norm, even in the Batman universe. Wanting things grounded on reality when the universe it's coming from is anything _but_ that, is rather nonsensical to me. Nolan himself had to mold his films to fit a certain equation of realism, and he got the Batman mythos. 
> 
> And the silenced heels are exactly what they are described as, nothing more, nothing less.


It's not "realism" so much as it is believability. We can buy that crazy themed villains exist because there isn't anything in the real world that comes close to them for us to compare them to; not really. 
For the same reason, we tend to not accept that women in action-oriented roles would wear heels, because we know that running, climbing, kicking, etc in heels is a fantastic way to fuck up your knees and ankles. Same goes for other stripperific outfits like you mentioned; they look stupid (among other things), and thus get backlash.

A certain amount of realism _is_ necessary, in all fiction. Otherwise we wouldn't accept any of it. 

And you're gonna have to explain how silent heels work, because that idea sounds hilariously dumb, no offense.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Atlanta96

> It's not "realism" so much as it is believability. We can buy that crazy themed villains exist because there isn't anything in the real world that comes close to them for us to compare them to; not really. 
> For the same reason, we tend to not accept that women in action-oriented roles would wear heels, because we know that running, climbing, kicking, etc in heels is a fantastic way to fuck up your knees and ankles. Same goes for other stripperific outfits like you mentioned; they look stupid (among other things), and thus get backlash.
> 
> A certain amount of realism _is_ necessary, in all fiction. Otherwise we wouldn't accept any of it. 
> 
> And you're gonna have to explain how silent heels work, because that idea sounds hilariously dumb, no offense.


If believability is that important, then Superman has to lose his cape because an enemy can grab onto it from behind and throw him off balance. And Wonder Woman has to cut her hair or wear it back at all times for a similar reason. And Batgirl has to ditch her current costume immediately because it's too restrictive for acrobatics or agile fighting. The list goes on, most costumes aren't designed with practicality in mind. Even the ones that are meant to be more practical usually aren't really practical.

I think it's more important to match a costume with the characters personality than strive for believability. Catwoman is one of the most flirtatious characters in comics, so I think a sensual design makes sense for her. I'm not a fan of high heels on Catwoman either but for aesthetic reasons.

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## LimeBright

> It's not "realism" so much as it is believability. We can buy that crazy themed villains exist because there isn't anything in the real world that comes close to them for us to compare them to; not really. 
> For the same reason, we tend to not accept that women in action-oriented roles would wear heels, because we know that running, climbing, kicking, etc in heels is a fantastic way to fuck up your knees and ankles. Same goes for other stripperific outfits like you mentioned; they look stupid (among other things), and thus get backlash.
> 
> A certain amount of realism _is_ necessary, in all fiction. Otherwise we wouldn't accept any of it. 
> 
> And you're gonna have to explain how silent heels work, because that idea sounds hilariously dumb, no offense.



Atlanta96 couldn't have placed a response to that first paragraph any more wonderfully, so I feel the need not to reiterate the points.

As for the silenced heels, patented noise-reducing heel tips, for example. Done. I'm not sure exactly on the material _used_ in the shoe making process or if it concerns some padding, but it _does_ exist. So there's your reality~, as silly and hilarious as that reality sounds to you, lol.

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## The_Greatest_Username

I don't see what is so important about realism in comics. We're talking about a woman who's supposed to be the greatest cat burglar in the world, yet her only tool is a whip. High heels have almost always been a part of Catwoman's look because they're sexy. Catwoman should be sexy.

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## Caivu

> I don't see what is so important about realism in comics. We're talking about a woman who's supposed to be the greatest cat burglar in the world, yet her only tool is a whip. High heels have almost always been a part of Catwoman's look because they're sexy. Catwoman should be sexy.


I'm not sure how serious you're being, but Catwoman uses more than a whip.
YMMV on whether heels are sexy.

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## Caivu

> If believability is that important, then Superman has to lose his cape because an enemy can grab onto it from behind and throw him off balance. And Wonder Woman has to cut her hair or wear it back at all times for a similar reason. And Batgirl has to ditch her current costume immediately because it's too restrictive for acrobatics or agile fighting. The list goes on, most costumes aren't designed with practicality in mind. Even the ones that are meant to be more practical usually aren't really practical.


I... don't disagree with most of those (except Batgirl's costume, because it _is_ shown to be that flexible, and we're not told what it's made out of. It has other problems, though). It's sort of what I was talking about in regard to believable vs realistic. The examples you gave _are_ believable, just not realistic. The best way I can explain it is that they don't really break suspension of disbelief, we the audience just largely go with it. The line for that will vary per person, of course.




> As for the silenced heels, patented noise-reducing heel tips, for example. Done. I'm not sure exactly on the material _used_ in the shoe making process or if it concerns some padding, but it _does_ exist. So there's your reality~, as silly and hilarious as that reality sounds to you, lol.


I was actually thinking that you were talking about some sort of technology that exists in the real world that I was just unaware of. I've seen weirder stuff than that in Skymall magazines, so I was curious. But I guess they're not real, darn.
And anyway, your idea would _still_ raise the question of "why heels?" when that kind of material (whatever it is) could be used on flats. I know, I'm being difficult.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Edit: I misread things. Just to be clear, are you saying that noise-cancelling high heels _actually_ exist, or just the padding that could be used for them?

----------


## godisawesome

I tend to be a bit against heels on the more street level brawlers because I _personally_ don't think the aesthetic appeal of them outweighs the statement of practicality that boots or flats have on a female character. I've got inconsistent standards for what counts as distracting or stupid costume elements to me; I can accept capes on just about anybody, have a weakness for long hair on fighters, and enjoy fan service to an extent. But I tend to look down on leotards or ultimate-cleavage designs for women, and I rank heels right there with them.

I do think that Catwoman should be a character who tries to have some aesthetic appeal in her suit, but over a comfortable wardrobe first. I like the message flats or boots or even toed shoes send that she's going to have fun running around without worrying about her butt being accentuated by footwear because she knows it already looks pretty good. At the same time, I like a Catwoman with hair exposed just because some artists managed to make that look kind of wild and fierce.

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## TsukiSentinel

> If believability is that important, then Superman has to lose his cape because an enemy can grab onto it from behind and throw him off balance. And Wonder Woman has to cut her hair or wear it back at all times for a similar reason. And Batgirl has to ditch her current costume immediately because it's too restrictive for acrobatics or agile fighting. The list goes on, most costumes aren't designed with practicality in mind. Even the ones that are meant to be more practical usually aren't really practical.


Difference is you're grasping at straws to come up with those examples. There's no need to grasp at straws when criticizing the idea of Catwoman in heels. 

I dare anyone to grab Superman's cape, or Wonder-woman's hair. It's not going to end well for them. 

As for Batgirl's costume being restrictive - good luck proving, let alone convincing people of that. Most people aren't that fashion-savvy. 

Heels look stupid on a character like Catwoman. She's too reliant on her agility, so let's just drop the idea.




> I don't see what is so important about realism in comics. We're talking about a woman who's supposed to be the greatest cat burglar in the world, yet her only tool is a whip. High heels have almost always been a part of Catwoman's look because they're sexy. Catwoman should be sexy.


Catwoman doesn't just use a whip, and no one is arguing that Catwoman shouldn't be sexy.

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## TsukiSentinel

> It's a comic book, realism _isn't_ a must. We're talking about a world where you have lunatics like The Joker killing people almost every night, we have a powered female with control over plants, wait, she _is_ half plant. Catwoman herself uses a whip to swing and fight with. Wow, where do you see _that_ in the real world? You have women going out there fighting with corsets, or some half naked. Practicality is _not_ the norm, even in the Batman universe. Wanting things grounded on reality when the universe it's coming from is anything _but_ that, is rather nonsensical to me. Nolan himself had to mold his films to fit a certain equation of realism, and he got the Batman mythos. 
> 
> And the silenced heels are exactly what they are described as, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> I also mean no offense to you, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether you find her having long hair generic. That's your opinion, and that's fine. I'm not here to convince you or anything. There will be others who disagree, me being one of them. I personally see her better with longer hair, not many artists can actually draw it well where it _looks_ attractive and less butch, and she could benefit away from the typical pixie cut (along with a change of costume). Her green eyes are enough. And really, having long hair and being like "the others" hasn't affected any female characters' individuality, agency, or recognition/popularity, so I can't see the issue.


No heels, silenced or not. It's silly. 

My opinion? How about we count the amount of female characters in the DC universe with long-hair, and compare them to the female characters with short-hair. 

I don't have to count, cause I already know the answer. Short-hair on a female character in the DC universe is extremely uncommon. In other words, long-hair is generic. 

I remember a little while ago I was playing the name Telltale Batman game, and Selina had long-hair in that. I couldn't help but feel that she looked so generic and boring. That's why I love her pixie-hair. 

Many artists don't even remember that she has green eyes. How many artists forget Harley's general design? And yes, I fully believe Harley has benefited from her iconic, unique, and adaptable design. Conversely, I feel Catwoman has suffered from not only being drawn inconsistently, but also from her lack of iconic features.

Wonder-woman, Supergirl, Powergirl, Batwoman, etc. may have long hair, but they look iconic and consistently so in other ways. Namely, their costumes. 

Besides the ears and the whip, I don't think Catwoman looks iconic enough.

----------


## Bosch

> I think it's more important to match a costume with the characters personality than strive for believability. Catwoman is one of the most flirtatious characters in comics, so I think a sensual design makes sense for her. I'm not a fan of high heels on Catwoman either but for aesthetic reasons.


I'd have to agree that heels cross the line from impractical to absurd. They're not just restrictive for the high octane stunts that Selina pulls, they're restrictive for women in the real world who wear them longer than a few hours during normal activities. If Selina was a meta-human, I'd be willing to roll with it, but she's ostensibly a normal human being. Her costume should reflect _some_ of the limitations of that.

And willingness to use sex appeal as a weapon is one of her defining attributes, but she does have more in her arsenal. I think at this point certain aspects of the old costume would be a misrepresentation of the ways she's grown as a character, especially during Brubaker's run.

But while we're on the subject, I do think the short hair combined with the biker/astronaut aesthetic her costume can have at the hands of certain artists is out of character. There's a way to make her look both glamorous and functional. Loeb's When in Rome had some problems, but I don't think Tim Sale's art was one of them. That's more in line with the Selina I'd like to see.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> But while we're on the subject, I do think the short hair combined with the biker/astronaut aesthetic her costume can have at the hands of certain artists is out of character. There's a way to make her look both glamorous and functional. Loeb's When in Rome had some problems, but I don't think Tim Sale's art was one of them. That's more in line with the Selina I'd like to see.


Then again, this looks effin gorgeous:

----------


## Tuck

The purple costume is straight-up ugly, all other concerns aside.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> The purple costume is straight-up ugly, all other concerns aside.


I like the way the costume looks here:

----------


## Atlanta96

> I like the way the costume looks here:


Well the cover on the right was done by Greg Land so it was probably traced from porn  :Smile:

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## TsukiSentinel

> Well the cover on the right was done by Greg Land so it was probably traced from porn


Well, she is a former prostitute. Can't say I'm surprised.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Heels look stupid on a character like Catwoman. She's too reliant on her agility, so let's just drop the idea.


They don't look stupid. Almost every single outside media adaptation of the character uses heels because they look good with her costume. They fit her femme fatale persona.

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## LimeBright

> Well, she is a former prostitute. Can't say I'm surprised.


Is that even canon anymore?







> I was actually thinking that you were talking about some sort of technology that exists in the real world that I was just unaware of. I've seen weirder stuff than that in Skymall magazines, so I was curious. But I guess they're not real, darn.
> And anyway, your idea would _still_ raise the question of "why heels?" when that kind of material (whatever it is) could be used on flats. I know, I'm being difficult. 
> 
> Edit: I misread things. Just to be clear, are you saying that noise-cancelling high heels _actually_ exist, or just the padding that could be used for them?


Noise-cancelling heels exist.









> No heels, silenced or not. It's silly. 
> 
> My opinion? How about we count the amount of female characters in the DC universe with long-hair, and compare them to the female characters with short-hair. 
> 
> I don't have to count, cause I already know the answer. Short-hair on a female character in the DC universe is extremely uncommon. In other words, long-hair is generic. 
> 
> I remember a little while ago I was playing the name Telltale Batman game, and Selina had long-hair in that. I couldn't help but feel that she looked so generic and boring. That's why I love her pixie-hair. 
> 
> Many artists don't even remember that she has green eyes. How many artists forget Harley's general design? And yes, I fully believe Harley has benefited from her iconic, unique, and adaptable design. Conversely, I feel Catwoman has suffered from not only being drawn inconsistently, but also from her lack of iconic features.
> ...


The inches on the heel don't have to be high either. But I don't really care whether heels are silly or not. I never batted an eyelash when she wore them, I won't do so in the future, and I don't think I ever will. Just like many of my friends did. It's a non concern.

The Telltale Batman game has Selina's hair pretty freaking dreary and plain, so while I'm not perceiving that as a grand example, I find it better than the short, butch, pixie cut on someone who is supposed to use her looks and attractiveness to her advantage. More often than not she looks _androgynous_ and masculine. Again, artists cannot make it look good majority of the time, sans Adam Hughes and a few others. Your opinion is based on how you prefer short hair on her because anything longer is generic. I don't agree with that. And I still don't believe it would be a negative move if she went back to long. The issue about the color of her eyes is on the artists' flaw to be consistent in general (or no one told them she's meant to have green eyes), yet she is still nonetheless perceived and _known_ to have green eyes. That's her unique character trait. Costume wise, isn't that the reason we are even _having_ this topic? To refresh her current costume, discuss possibilities on how she can stand out?

What she's sporting _now_ has become boring, short hair (and while not generic in the greater span of the comic universe, it has become generic when it comes to _her_ character, to the point where I feel her growing her hair out may have a more positive outcome, or at least have her be different than what we have been used to), black cat suit, etc. Hasn't changed it for 15 years.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Is that even canon anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noise-cancelling heels exist.
> 
> ...


It's canon to me. I don't give a crap whether DC refuses to grow up and accept it or not. 

Regardless of whether they exist, she wouldn't be able to move properly in them. Why are you so attached to Catwoman wearing heels? 

I just proved to you that long-hair is generic. As for short-hair, it is more attractive, to me. I've never seen Catwoman as looking masculine, except during Valentine's run. 

Eyes can't be the only distinguishing feature because they rarely stand out in general. 

Her costume isn't boring to me. The problem with Catwoman has always been the writing. I don't see how giving Catwoman a more generic look(and I've already proved it's generic) helps her in any way. 

I think you're failing to understand that these days characters, especially female characters, have to appeal to both men and women. I can't speak for all women, but I've heard many complaints about characters like Catwoman. Complaints about her heels, her cleavage, or the way she's posed. I keep reminding people that she's a femme fatale so sex appeal is expected, but even I have to admit some things need to be compromised. My point is, Catwoman can be sexy without looking like a dumb male fantasy. Screw the heels. It does her no favors. I want Catwoman to be taken seriously as a character.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Regardless of whether they exist, she wouldn't be able to move properly in them. Why are you so attached to Catwoman wearing heels?


Superhero costumes aren't supposed to be practical. The whole genre is fantasy, so it doesn't matter if their looks make sense. Some fans like Catwoman wearing heels because she looks good in them.

----------


## Stormcrow

CBR recently published this article stating Catwoman Should Be Carmine Falcone’s Daughter, although Brian Cronin either ignores or is not aware of Selina being established as the daughter of another mobster in the New 52.

What's your take on Selina's parentage? I actually prefer her *not* to be the daughter of either Falcone or Calabrese, she's far more interesting to me if she comes from the streets and builds herself up instead of inheriting her power and being defined by who he father is. And as the article states, Huntress already fills the mob daughter niche...

Here's hoping that Rebirth does away with the Calabrese thing.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> CBR recently published this article stating Catwoman Should Be Carmine Falcone’s Daughter, although Brian Cronin either ignores or is not aware of Selina being established as the daughter of another mobster in the New 52.
> 
> What's your take on Selina's parentage? I actually prefer her *not* to be the daughter of either Falcone or Calabrese, she's far more interesting to me if she comes from the streets and builds herself up instead of inheriting her power and being defined by who he father is. And as the article states, Huntress already fills the mob daughter niche...
> 
> Here's hoping that Rebirth does away with the Calabrese thing.


I'm in a similar boat to you. I like it when Catwoman's parentage is hinted at, but never revealed. I think that she should be more defined by her having built herself up.

----------


## LimeBright

All I want for Selina is a _consistent_ origin story.






> It's canon to me. I don't give a crap whether DC refuses to grow up and accept it or not. 
> 
> Regardless of whether they exist, she wouldn't be able to move properly in them. Why are you so attached to Catwoman wearing heels? 
> 
> I just proved to you that long-hair is generic. As for short-hair, it is more attractive, to me. I've never seen Catwoman as looking masculine, except during Valentine's run. 
> 
> Eyes can't be the only distinguishing feature because they rarely stand out in general. 
> 
> Her costume isn't boring to me. The problem with Catwoman has always been the writing. I don't see how giving Catwoman a more generic look(and I've already proved it's generic) helps her in any way. 
> ...


Frank Miller wrote it just to feed his whore preference and in the following depictions he had degraded her. Lest we forget obese, horrible looking, dressed as Wonder Woman pathetic Selina, who had a pimp that abused her. Horrible. Good riddance and thank you DC.

I'm not attached to Catwoman wearing heels, I just think that bid of practicality is unneeded. It doesn't matter whether she does or not, it's really not a big deal. I didn't care for Catwoman in heeled boots in the Arkham verse. What pulled me was her personality and quips. People are just focusing on the _wrong_ things, and those aren't the heels' fault xD. I even kept forgetting Harley in Suicide Squad had heels (and funny enough, Margot was able to pull those stunts in them fine). Shoes are shoes.

Long hair on women is seen as more feminine, to both genders, and I'm pretty certain it may appeal more. Generic doesn't mean a thing. Considering you still haven't proven that it makes a female character get "lost in the crowd" so to speak, means that it's perfectly fine to have it as long as she stands out elsewhere. Changing the costume a bit may also bring color and interest to the character. Along with good writing, it can be a fresh new beginning. 

Also, who are these people with these "complaints"? Because they are utterly ridiculous to me.

We have Harley's recent fetishistic outfit, Wonder Woman's body suit, Ivy's one piece. All the gratuitous shots of big boobs and big ass and legs of legit every female comic character. And you're telling me, you are _actually_ telling me, that they find time to complain about _Catwoman_'s fanservice? There are many attempts to embrace the male fantasy here. Just like how they are making the female rogues bisexual, and, well, what do you know, not doing the same for the men~. Catwoman herself was created to play on men's fantasies. If they are going to whine about cleavages and posing, then they should not read comic books in general. It's chock full of them and I can post a bunch of scans showing so with different female characters. I'm sorry, but that's just whining about a whole lot of nothing to me, lol.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> All I want for Selina is a _consistent_ origin story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank Miller wrote it just to feed his whore preference and in the following depictions he had degraded her. Lest we forget obese, horrible looking, dressed as Wonder Woman pathetic Selina, who had a pimp that abused her. Horrible. Good riddance and thank you DC.
> 
> I'm not attached to Catwoman wearing heels, I just think that bid of practicality is unneeded. It doesn't matter whether she does or not, it's really not a big deal. I didn't care for Catwoman in heeled boots in the Arkham verse. What pulled me was her personality and quips. People are just focusing on the _wrong_ things, and those aren't the heels' fault xD. I even kept forgetting Harley in Suicide Squad had heels (and funny enough, Margot was able to pull those stunts in them fine). Shoes are shoes.
> ...


That's called throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Luckily, Selina's origin is so inconsistent that I can ignore all attempts to victimize her, and still keep her prostitute origin.

You try doing acrobatic stunts in heels, and then tell me "shoes are shoes." 

I never made the argument that it makes a character get "lost in the crowd." Those are your words not mine. I made the argument that it makes them stand out less, and this hurts the character's popularity. Harley is the perfect example. She has benefited from her design. 

They are not ridiculous complaints. It's fine to depict Catwoman as a sexual person who dresses provocatively. What's not fine is reducing her to her sexuality, which is why I'm against the heels. Catwoman wouldn't wear heels with her costume because she's not stupid. Like Batman, she's concerned with practicality. 

Any artist that doesn't understand this probably doesn't respect the character. 

You don't seem to understand the problem at all. The problem isn't nudity, or costumes that don't cover much. The problem is the intention behind it. Does it exist to cater to male fantasies, or does it exist to express something about the character? And keep in mind, I'm not saying this from a feminist perspective. I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who cares about the characters.

Your irreverence doesn't mix with good story-telling. You can't engage in fanservice without sacrificing story.

----------


## Bosch

> Frank Miller wrote it just to feed his whore preference and in the following depictions he had degraded her. Lest we forget obese, horrible looking, dressed as Wonder Woman pathetic Selina, who had a pimp that abused her. Horrible. Good riddance and thank you DC.


Whatever Miller's intentions in making her one, Brubaker's run dealt heavily with her past as a prostitute in a way that added more depth to the character than I think she's ever gotten. Holly, Slam, Selina's decision to defend the East End, her ambivalence about Bats' moral absolutism -- none of that holds as much water without it.





> What's your take on Selina's parentage? I actually prefer her *not* to be the daughter of either Falcone or Calabrese, she's far more interesting to me if she comes from the streets and builds herself up instead of inheriting her power and being defined by who he father is. And as the article states, Huntress already fills the mob daughter niche...


I don't think she needs the mob pedigree, but I don't hate it. Even as Falcone's daughter, the implication before the New 52 was that she never had contact with him, so she was still very much a product of the streets. I didn't get the sense that Falcone was important enough as a character to overpower her narrative or define her. But yeah, Loeb was pushing it at the end with _When in Rome,_ and Valentine's run inexplicably switched out Falcone for Calabrese and ran way too far with it.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Superhero costumes aren't supposed to be practical. The whole genre is fantasy, so it doesn't matter if their looks make sense. Some fans like Catwoman wearing heels because she looks good in them.


That's a weak argument to apply to a non-meta-human in the Batman universe. A universe where the hero defeats villains using gadgets and human ingenuity. Batman himself is extremely interested in practicality.

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## The_Greatest_Username

> That's a weak argument to apply to a non-meta-human in the Batman universe. A universe where the hero defeats villains using gadgets and human ingenuity. Batman himself is extremely interested in practicality.


Then why does he wear a cape?...

----------


## Punisher007

As part of his intimidation factor, and also some version depict it as allowing him to fly/glide over short distances.  So right there is a psychological and practical reason for it.  And it's not remotely as impractical as trying to wear heels when you're a non-powered character trying to run over rooftops, do flips, fight, sneak into places, etc.

And this is true of Black Canary, Batgirl, Batwoman, Katana, etc.  None of them should be wearing heels as part of their costumes imo.  I don't care if it "makes them stand out," which is a debatable claim anyway.  it just doesn't work imo.

----------


## Bosch

> Then why does he wear a cape?...


I regret inadvertently starting this conversation, but the risks associated with a piece of fabric hanging off your back versus wearing high heels are laughably incomparable.

Here, from Medical Daily: _"With prolonged use you get muscle shortening in the back of the leg and muscle lengthening in the front of the leg. These changes in muscle length then can change muscle strength,” Turner added. "High-heeled shoes also change the normal walking or gait cycle, with the ultimate result being a less fluent gait cycle. Changes at the ankle cause the muscles higher in the leg and back to lose efficiency and strength. It also changes the load the bones in and around the knee have to absorb, which can ultimately lead to injury."_

----------


## Caivu

Plus Batman's cape is bulletproof and detachable.

Also, inb4 anyone posts that picture of Jessie Graff at the Emmys as proof of anything...

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> As part of his intimidation factor, and also some version depict it as allowing him to fly/glide over short distances.  So right there is a psychological and practical reason for it.  And it's not remotely as impractical as trying to wear heels when you're a non-powered character trying to run over rooftops, do flips, fight, sneak into places, etc.
> 
> And this is true of Black Canary, Batgirl, Batwoman, Katana, etc.  None of them should be wearing heels as part of their costumes imo.  I don't care if it "makes them stand out," which is a debatable claim anyway.  it just doesn't work imo.


Batman's costume would be more practical without a cape. He only wears it because it looks cool.

----------


## Bosch

> Batman's costume would be more practical without a cape. He only wears it because it looks cool.


And it would still be ten times _less_ practical if he forewent the cape and strapped on a pair of stilts, which he would have to do for this to be a fair comparison.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Then why does he wear a cape?...


Too glide through the air and to hide him in the dark, and anybody who wants to try and test the practicality of Batman's cape by grabbing it would probably end up regretting it. 

Seriously, you're not gonna win this argument. Batman's pragmatism when it comes to his choice of gadgets and outfit is irrefutable at this point. The same goes for the entire Batfamily.

This too:




> Plus Batman's cape is bulletproof and detachable.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> And it would still be ten times _less_ practical if he forewent the cape and strapped on a pair of stilts, which he would have to do for this to be a fair comparison.


What degree of impracticality are we supposed to accept? Black Canary can wear a skimpy outfit with little to no protection, but the moment she slips on a pair of heels it becomes a problem?




> Too glide through the air and to hide him in the dark, and anybody who wants to try and test the practicality of Batman's cape by grabbing it would probably end up regretting it. 
> 
> Seriously, you're not gonna win this argument. Batman's pragmatism when it comes to his choice of gadgets and outfit is irrefutable at this point. The same goes for the entire Batfamily.


This argument is pretty irrelevant and will have no impact on Selina's costume in the future. All it boils down to is that some fans like Catwoman wearing high heels and some fans don't.

----------


## Atlanta96

DC needs to make a new Catwoman series right away so we can discuss something besides her shoes  :Smile:

----------


## Bosch

> What degree of impracticality are we supposed to accept? Black Canary can wear a skimpy outfit with little to no protection, but the moment she slips on a pair of heels it becomes a problem?


The point is that the utility invented to justify Bats' cape compensates for its obvious impracticality. The fact that writers even thought to make it bulletproof, explain its use as a scare tactic, etc. is proof positive that things that don't gel with the real world still need to make sense enough to suspend disbelief. It's hard to do that with heels because of the sheer level of restriction they place on women just going about ordinary activities. Their only advantage would be, what, exactly? Sex appeal? She's got that without them.




> DC needs to make a new Catwoman series right away so we can discuss something besides her shoes


I wanted to talk about the Falcone/hooker thing, but I'm a sucker for a Sisyphean argument.

----------


## Rocco

_here CATWOMAN goodness...
_



_from the upcoming movie_ *BATMAN:ROGUES GALLERY*

----------


## 16 Bit

The advantage of her wearing heels is they look cool and it seems like something she would want to wear.

I'd prefer they drop the Falcone/Calabrese father story. I like her better as a self made woman and every special person in Gotham being connected is lame.

----------


## Mutant God

> CBR recently published this article stating Catwoman Should Be Carmine Falcone’s Daughter, although Brian Cronin either ignores or is not aware of Selina being established as the daughter of another mobster in the New 52.
> 
> What's your take on Selina's parentage? I actually prefer her *not* to be the daughter of either Falcone or Calabrese, she's far more interesting to me if she comes from the streets and builds herself up instead of inheriting her power and being defined by who he father is. And as the article states, Huntress already fills the mob daughter niche...
> 
> Here's hoping that Rebirth does away with the Calabrese thing.


I like the poor abused daughter one better where her father was a drunk who beat Selina, her sister, and her mother and blamed Selina everytime it happen saying it was her fault he beats her sister everytime she stood up against him, because its a reason she doesn't like to get involve in other people's problems, and when her mother killed herself he blamed Selina for it and drank himself to death, leaving Selina and Maggie to be orphans where Maggie goes into foster care and Selina raises herself in the streets (Think I read too much into that origin sorry if I got wrong). Also like that she was trained by Wildcat, should he have a bigger role in her origins or should he just trained her?

----------


## klynn

> DC needs to make a new Catwoman series right away so we can discuss something besides her shoes


Yes, please!!!!

----------


## Stormcrow

> DC needs to make a new Catwoman series right away so we can discuss something besides her shoes


DC made it clear it won't happen anytime soon but hopefully after her upcoming appearance in _Batman_ and the _All-Star Batman_ arc that Snyder has planned for her they'll reconsider.

----------


## Atlanta96

> DC made it clear it won't happen anytime soon but hopefully after her upcoming appearance in _Batman_ and the _All-Star Batman_ arc that Snyder has planned for her they'll reconsider.


If Poison Ivy does well in trade sales they might give Catwoman another shot too. They're both liked and disliked for similar reasons, Ivy's success could lead to some success for Catwoman too.

----------


## LimeBright

> That's called throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Luckily, Selina's origin is so inconsistent that I can ignore all attempts to victimize her, and still keep her prostitute origin.
> 
> You try doing acrobatic stunts in heels, and then tell me "shoes are shoes." 
> 
> I never made the argument that it makes a character get "lost in the crowd." Those are your words not mine. I made the argument that it makes them stand out less, and this hurts the character's popularity. Harley is the perfect example. She has benefited from her design. 
> 
> They are not ridiculous complaints. It's fine to depict Catwoman as a sexual person who dresses provocatively. What's not fine is reducing her to her sexuality, which is why I'm against the heels. Catwoman wouldn't wear heels with her costume because she's not stupid. Like Batman, she's concerned with practicality. 
> 
> Any artist that doesn't understand this probably doesn't respect the character. 
> ...



Someone brought up Batman with the cape, and it's justified due to its impracticability still being practical (and somehow, I need to know the material used with that cape, because it still flows as light as a feather in the wind, yet it can glide and stop bullets, hmm). So if we applied this to Anne's costume, is her wearing heels now justified because she uses it as another set of hidden weaponry (blades)? Which helps her catch her opponents off guard? So she's _allowed_ then to have heels. I'm using allowed because apparently it needs to have logic behind it to satisfy certain people.

How about her whip. A whip is impractical to use when you're swinging from building to building unlike a grappling hook, and she still uses it. So is she still stupid, as a character, for not being "practical" enough?

This is why I find it nonsensical, setting rules and laws of practicality in a comic universe where it doesn't need to be applied. Yes, that _includes_ Batman. The issue isn't whether or not she wears heels, or whether it will be utilized to sexualize her. It's about how others are so against the thought that her having them is just, reprehensible to them like it's all that mattered. I see no problem if an artist wants to depict her with heels because she/he likes it and wants to use it for her outfit. Why the obsession with her _not_ needing to wear heels? Even the whole "it's not practical!" is flawed for reasons stated beforehand.

I'm just confused with your disagreement of Selina having long hair. Harley Quinn was a popular character before her new outfit, and she was a typical long haired, blue eyed blonde. _There is no correlation at all that having long hair will make a female character stand out less_ is what I am saying to you. What distinguishes Harley is her costume and color usages (and...whatever else made her popular, which I still have yet to fully understand). Selina having long hair will not affect her negatively as long as she's interesting. And if anything her having long hair will more than likely make her stand out rather than not because she's been sporting the short hair for centuries. Her growing it out may be just what she needs because it's a *change* from the norm, a switch from her same old physical attributes.

----------


## Frontier

> DC made it clear it won't happen anytime soon but hopefully after her upcoming appearance in _Batman_ and the _All-Star Batman_ arc that Snyder has planned for her they'll reconsider.





> If Poison Ivy does well in trade sales they might give Catwoman another shot too. They're both liked and disliked for similar reasons, Ivy's success could lead to some success for Catwoman too.


I think it's more likely we'll see a relaunched Gotham City Sirens, or "Harley Quinn and the Gotham City Sirens" consolidating all those characters into one book before we see them get new solo's or mini's, and now they can use Harley's name to help push it. 

I thin it's especially likely with the upcoming Harley Quinn movie and it potentially featuring Catwoman and Poison Ivy.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think it's more likely we'll see a relaunched Gotham City Sirens, or "Harley Quinn and the Gotham City Sirens" consolidating all those characters into one book before we see them get new solo's or mini's, and now they can use Harley's name to help push it. 
> 
> I thin it's especially likely with the upcoming Harley Quinn movie and it potentially featuring Catwoman and Poison Ivy.


Harley already stars in two bi-monthly series and an endless string of miniseries so I think another Harley focused ongoing series is unlikely. We could get a Poison Ivy and/or Catwoman series and the Sirens will make guest appearances in each other's books. I think I'd prefer that.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Catwoman in the new Telltale Batman episode was amazing. Her hair was as generic, just like in the last episode, but her character and lines were spot on. 

Didn't get to see her footwear, sorry.

----------


## Bosch

I don't know if this is relevant, but it should be:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Sh7an-Y5D0c

----------


## Ticklefist

> DC needs to make a new Catwoman series right away so we can discuss something besides her shoes


We need an upvote system so I don't have to post that I agree.

----------


## LimeBright

I think they might wait until she gains steam again? It can ignite interest and hopefully by then they can write a wholly good series to follow and entice more readers into giving her series another chance after the downward spiral it's been in.

I'm kind of nervous of her appearing in the DCEU (waiting to see if she has a good/awesome portrayal), she's been hinted at in BvS already, so we know she at _least_ exists. But everything's in plan to be released about next year in the two possible films she can appear in? (the working Batman movie and Harley Quinn)

I'm not sure exactly what DC's expectancy of sales are for it not to get issues cancelled.

----------


## signalman112

> By the way, don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hallmark will have a special Catwoman ornament based on the Julie Newmar 1960s TV show version of Catwoman.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hallmark.com/ornaments/ke...95QXE3091.html



Thanks for the heads up.  Early Christmas present for myself.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think they might wait until she gains steam again? It can ignite interest and hopefully by then they can write a wholly good series to follow and entice more readers into giving her series another chance after the downward spiral it's been in.
> 
> I'm kind of nervous of her appearing in the DCEU (waiting to see if she has a good/awesome portrayal), she's been hinted at in BvS already, so we know she at _least_ exists. But everything's in plan to be released about next year in the two possible films she can appear in? (the working Batman movie and Harley Quinn)
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what DC's expectancy of sales are for it not to get issues cancelled.


I've seen articles saying Catwoman will be in the Batfleck movie.  And Margot Robbie said in preparation for her role as Harley Quinn she read DC comics and fell in love with the DC female characters.  
One would assume she read Gotham City Sirens. So I can't see why she would not want Catwoman in her Harley Quinn movie.

----------


## Huntsman1117

_Catwoman: Election Night_ comes out in November as well as _Batman_ #10, starring Catwoman. _Election Night_ is only going to be 1 or 2 issues though, and has her dealing with Prez running for office. So she is getting her own solo story, which I hope sells out so that she'll be given her own title again.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> _Catwoman: Election Night_ comes out in November as well as _Batman_ #10, starring Catwoman. _Election Night_ is only going to be 1 or 2 issues though, and has her dealing with Prez running for office. So she is getting her own solo story, which I hope sells out so that she'll be given her own title again.


Cool.  At least DC hasn't forgotten the character exists.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I've seen articles saying Catwoman will be in the Batfleck movie.  And Margot Robbie said in preparation for her role as Harley Quinn she read DC comics and fell in love with the DC female characters.  
> One would assume she read Gotham City Sirens. So I can't see why she would not want Catwoman in her Harley Quinn movie.


Imagining Margot Robbie sitting around reading Gotham City Sirens is really hot  :Smile:

----------


## LimeBright

> I've seen articles saying Catwoman will be in the Batfleck movie.  And Margot Robbie said in preparation for her role as Harley Quinn she read DC comics and fell in love with the DC female characters.  
> One would assume she read Gotham City Sirens. So I can't see why she would not want Catwoman in her Harley Quinn movie.


Are they trustworthy articles? (there's been rumors and all) And it's funny if she read Gotham City Sirens. It means she also knows about Harley/Ivy :O.

Oh, I would love Taylor Cole to be Selina Kyle.






But who knows who they'll pick.

----------


## vitaminbee

> Are they trustworthy articles? (there's been rumors and all) And it's funny if she read Gotham City Sirens. It means she also knows about Harley/Ivy :O.
> 
> Oh, I would love Taylor Cole to be Selina Kyle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But who knows who they'll pick.


Who? What has she been in? Edit: Just googled her and... She really doesn't have much of a resume to be up for that big of a role.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Who? What has she been in? Edit: Just googled her and... She really doesn't have much of a resume to be up for that big of a role.


I'd prefer an obscure actress over anyone else.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

I think in that Batman is older they need an older Catwoman.  I think Lana Parrilla would make a great Catwoman. She's 39 and Ben Affleck is 44, so just about the right age. And she is good at playing devious.

Lana+Parrilla+Short+Hairstyles+Short+Curls+SQ0-D9qAihWx.jpg

----------


## Lucas 35

People. @mikeljanin is coming to Batman. Prepare yourselves accordingly.



https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/781144576878714880

----------


## klynn

> I think in that Batman is older they need an older Catwoman.  I think Lana Parrilla would make a great Catwoman. She's 39 and Ben Affleck is 44, so just about the right age. And she is good at playing devious.
> 
> Lana+Parrilla+Short+Hairstyles+Short+Curls+SQ0-D9qAihWx.jpg


Oh, I love this suggestion!

----------


## LimeBright

> Who? What has she been in? Edit: Just googled her and... She really doesn't have much of a resume to be up for that big of a role.


Some actors and actresses have their "big break". Of course, Catwoman is a role that demands quite the pressure, but if they are up for it, I can't see why their lack of resume would prevent them from auditioning. It all depends on their skill and if she is what they are looking for.

And Taylor has the green/hazel eyes going for her ♥.








> People. @mikeljanin is coming to Batman. Prepare yourselves accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/781144576878714880


WHAT.

What do you mean? :O

I'm not familiar with names. But wow that art.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I think in that Batman is older they need an older Catwoman.  I think Lana Parrilla would make a great Catwoman. She's 39 and Ben Affleck is 44, so just about the right age. And she is good at playing devious.
> 
> Lana+Parrilla+Short+Hairstyles+Short+Curls+SQ0-D9qAihWx.jpg


True, but Catwoman is never depicted as being as old as Bruce, with some rare exceptions. I remember someone researched it and concluded that in most depictions Catwoman is about 8 years younger than Bruce. I wish I could find the source. 

I think 33-37 is a good age range. 

Also, another problem - Margot Robbie. 

If Catwoman is going to appear in the next Gotham City Sirens/Birds of Prey movie, I'd hate to be shallow since Catwoman is my favorite female comic character, but whoever they cast needs to be able to compete with Margot Robbie in the looks department. 

Harley Quinn has taken too much of Selina's thunder in the comics. If Catwoman is ever going to make any real comeback in the comics, the actress needs to knock it out of the park on multiple levels, and this includes aesthetically.

----------


## godisawesome

> True, but Catwoman is never depicted as being as old as Bruce, with some rare exceptions. I remember someone researched it and concluded that in most depictions Catwoman is about 8 years younger than Bruce. I wish I could find the source. 
> 
> I think 33-37 is a good age range. 
> 
> Also, another problem - Margot Robbie. 
> 
> If Catwoman is going to appear in the next Gotham City Sirens/Birds of Prey movie, I'd hate to be shallow since Catwoman is my favorite female comic character, but whoever they cast needs to be able to compete with Margot Robbie in the looks department. 
> 
> Harley Quinn has taken too much of Selina's thunder in the comics. If Catwoman is ever going to make any real comeback in the comics, the actress needs to knock it out of the park on multiple levels, and this includes aesthetically.


I don't know if Parilla is exactly who I'd want to see play Catwoman, but I think she shares a similar ability to be more beautiful when animatated and smiling, like Robbie. In fact, about half of my interest in her character in Once Upon a Time was her ability to have a variety of bewitchingly evil and mischievous smiles. So if she was cast, I really wouldn't think she was outclassed drastically by Robbie. They're both _really_ hot; not identically so, and I'd actually kind of like to see if there's an aesthetic difference between whoever plays Catwoman as a mature woman versus Harley's still young 20-something. Charlize Theron is still my preference, and she's actually in her forties and clearly more statuesque than bombshell.

Having said that, aesthetics are far down on my list of qualifications for an actress for Selina, just because to me, they're  a given factor that can be taken as a given just because of Hollywood's obsession with model-ish good looks. I'd be far more concerned with the actress managing to portray different aspects of Selina's character and being able to display the physicality of the role; Hathaway was kind of tailored by her physical training for a femme-fatale Catwoman. I want to see a Catwoman who's sinuous and sultry as an athlete.

Though back to Parilla, she does look different with different make-up work, and that ties into an idea that intrigues me about how to play her in the DCEU; have both Selina and Catwoman wear visible makeup, and make it clear she is kind of putting on a mask in both personas. She's sometimes a conwoman as well as a thief, and she has to have cajones to keep being a colorful and non-murderous thief in Gotham, so I'd like to a makeup artist make Selina seem more vulnerable and seductive, than make Catwoman look more fierce and sensual. Like, she wears warmer bit muted color as Selina and goes light on the eyeshadow,but heavy as Catwoman and with more dynamic coloring. Heck, maybe she even wears wigs as both Selina and Catwoman.

----------


## Lucas 35

> Some actors and actresses have their "big break". Of course, Catwoman is a role that demands quite the pressure, but if they are up for it, I can't see why their lack of resume would prevent them from auditioning. It all depends on their skill and if she is what they are looking for.
> 
> And Taylor has the green/hazel eyes going for her ♥.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the beginning of the new arc from Batman, begins at number 9, where Batman will form their own Suicide Squad.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

This girl looks like a rockstar. Has she been taking fashion inspiration from Joan Jett? 

From the upcoming(3x3) episode of Gotham:

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/sectio...y4/hires/7.jpg

----------


## LimeBright

I wonder why are we taking the actors' ages into account for the characters (as if those were the actual characters' ages). Harley may be played by younger Margot, but considering the long years of education you need to be a doctor, let alone be qualified enough by reputation to take on The Joker, and that it's been *10 years* since the death of Jason Todd which she was involved in, no way Harley is in her 20s, lol. She would sensibly be in her early to mid-30s, _at least_.

I think an actress for Selina should be fine in the 30s range. She'll fit Ben, but at the same time won't be so out of age with the rest. She has always been younger than Bruce.






> This is the beginning of the new arc from Batman, begins at number 9, where *Batman will form their own Suicide Squad*.


Whoa. Wonder what got him to that concept. It's kind of ironically funny considering in the DCEU he's told Waller to get rid of her own. I pray for well written Catwoman.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I wonder why are we taking the actors' ages into account for the characters (as if those were the actual characters' ages). Harley may be played by younger Margot, but considering the long years of education you need to be a doctor, let alone be qualified enough by reputation to take on The Joker, and that it's been *10 years* since the death of Jason Todd which she was involved in, no way Harley is in her 20s, lol. She would sensibly be in her early to mid-30s, _at least_.
> 
> I think an actress for Selina should be fine in the 30s range. She'll fit Ben, but at the same time won't be so out of age with the rest. She has always been younger than Bruce.



Except for Gotham where everybody is older than Bruce.





> I pray for well written Catwoman.


Me too.   For the most part I have been pleased with how Catwoman has been depicted both live and animated.  With the awful exception of in her own damn movie.
 I think Hathaway's version is the most true to the comics, but Pfeiffer's crazyness was the most fun. So a mix of those two with Julie Newmar's sexiness and Eartha Kitt's sassiness 
would be purr-fect.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> With the awful exception of in her own damn movie.


Selina Kyle wasn't even in that movie. It stole the Catwoman name, as far as I'm concerned.

----------


## Bosch

> Me too.   For the most part I have been pleased with how Catwoman has been depicted both live and animated.  With the awful exception of in her own damn movie.
>  I think Hathaway's version is the most true to the comics, but Pfeiffer's crazyness was the most fun. So a mix of those two with Julie Newmar's sexiness and Eartha Kitt's sassiness 
> would be purr-fect.


Eartha Kitt was a sexpot. She would've been as Catwoman, as well, but the studio overruled the showrunners' plans to continue the Batman/Catwoman dynamic. I'd love to see another PoC Catwoman on the screen (or the page, for that matter) as a nod to Kitt's legacy.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Eartha Kitt was a sexpot. She would've been as Catwoman, as well, but the studio overruled the showrunners' plans to continue the Batman/Catwoman dynamic. I'd love to see another PoC Catwoman on the screen (or the page, for that matter) as a nod to Kitt's legacy.


What about Halle Berry?  :Smile:

----------


## Bosch

> What about Halle Berry?


Kitt's legacy deserves a better nod than that cat-astrophe.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Jessica Lucas would have made a good PoC Catwoman, visually anyways.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Two Catwoman books to look out for:

_The Many Lives of Catwoman_ by Tim Hanley: https://thanley.wordpress.com/2016/0...n-summer-2017/

_Catwoman_ by Sarah J. Maas: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/31...s-wonder-woman

----------


## millernumber1

Very interesting, though I hope against hope it's not more origins.

----------


## Frontier

> Two Catwoman books to look out for:
> 
> _The Many Lives of Catwoman_ by Tim Hanley: https://thanley.wordpress.com/2016/0...n-summer-2017/
> 
> _Catwoman_ by Sarah J. Maas: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/31...s-wonder-woman


I've heard good things about Tim Hanley's other books on the history of DC heroines, so I'm definitely interested to read him take on Catwoman  :Smile: .

I've never heard o Sarah J. Maas before, but I'm curious to see how they'd approach a young adult Catwoman novel. 

I'll definitely be on the lookout for each of these.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I've never heard o Sarah J. Maas before, but I'm curious to see how they'd approach a young adult Catwoman novel.


She's a bestselling author, and her books are going to be made into TV shows and movies. Definitely a name to look out for. Here's her site: http://sarahjmaas.com/ 

I'm hoping for good things from her Catwoman book.

----------


## Caivu

The NYCC Batfamily panel is going on right now, and Tom King just said Catwoman would be "the second lead of the book going forward." Cool news!

----------


## 16 Bit

even after the Batman suicide squad arc? great news.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The NYCC Batfamily panel is going on right now, and Tom King just said Catwoman would be "the second lead of the book going forward." Cool news!


Yee! Selina finally gets to be interesting again! I know King will give us the best written Catwoman in years, possibly so good that we'll start begging him to drop Batman completely to do the next Catwoman solo  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> The NYCC Batfamily panel is going on right now, and Tom King just said Catwoman would be "the second lead of the book going forward." Cool news!


I was really happy to read that, especially since it means Selina will have a major presence in the book past the second arc, not to mention being the female lead  :Big Grin: .

If they're not going to give Catwoman a new series, then a big role in the main Batman book is a nice trade-off in my mind  :Smile: .

Looking forward to reading King's Catwoman.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Lets just hope Duke and Gotham Girl dont take focus, Hugo Strange has been a non entity in _I AM GOTHAM AND THE NIGHT OF THE MONSTER MEN_ crossover despite being the main villain because those 2 characters are apparently too important. Just saying she'll be in it isn't good enough, I want something to be done and hopefully like Batwoman will lead to an ongoing if King plays his cards like Tynion did.

----------


## klynn

> Lets just hope Duke and Gotham Girl dont take focus, Hugo Strange has been a non entity in _I AM GOTHAM AND THE NIGHT OF THE MONSTER MEN_ crossover despite being the main villain because those 2 characters are apparently too important. Just saying she'll be in it isn't good enough, I want something to be done and *hopefully like Batwoman will lead to an ongoing if King plays his cards like Tynion did.*


Yep, hoping that as well.  

Her presence in the book will make me buy a Batman book for the first time ever.  Hope she truly is the "second lead"

----------


## millernumber1

A second lead sounds incredibly interesting...

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Wow, Harley is getting a panel at Comic-con, and Wonder-woman is getting one for her 75th birthday. 

What about Lois Lane? What about Catwoman? Two female characters that are even older. 

All Catwoman got was a book called "Catwoman: A Celebration of 75 Years," which DC refused to advertise. The only way I heard about it was from a tweet created by the actress who plays her on Gotham. 


I don't get you DC.

----------


## Baseman

> Wow, Harley is getting a panel at Comic-con, and Wonder-woman is getting one for her 75th birthday. 
> 
> What about Lois Lane? What about Catwoman? Two female characters that are even older. 
> 
> All Catwoman got was a book called "Catwoman: A Celebration of 75 Years," which DC refused to advertise. The only way I heard about it was from a tweet created by the actress who plays her on Gotham. 
> 
> 
> I don't get you DC.


Seems pretty simple to me.Harley's DC's new cashcow,and WonderWoman has a movie coming up.So no wonder they're hyping them up.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Seems pretty simple to me.Harley's DC's new cashcow,and WonderWoman has a movie coming up.So no wonder they're hyping them up.


No, I understand that, but DC is in control of all this. Where were they when the shitty Catwoman movie was being made without Selina Kyle? Where was their advertising for "Catwoman: A Celebration of 75 Years"? Why the hell are the characters expected to do all the leg work in their own promotion? Harley's popularity was a complete accident. A couple years ago they wouldn't even give her the time of day. Now they're kissing her ass. 

Where were they when Winick and Nocenti were wreaking havoc on the character? Where were they when Snyder made her a crime boss? Where were they when Valentine was forced to write this OOC character?

Also, given that the shitty DCEU is now the driving force behind the comics, what is Catwoman's role in the movies? 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if Catwoman doesn't make an appearance, let alone impress in the DCEU movies she's done as a character. You'll see her once in a blue moon whenever Batman gets blue balls, which is pretty much how they treat her now.

----------


## darkseidpwns

While I'm not gonna ask for a Catwoman panel I have to admit the Bat office has rather strange priorities. TDKR was the perfect time to highlight Catwoman and Bane for that matter, DC simply chose to do nothing. Instead Snyder was too busy writing his Joker story while Selina was stuck with Winick(and Nocenti not long after). The only thing we got was Talia in Batman INC and that's only because Morrison was already writing her. Similarly now Deathstroke has been cast as the villain in Afflecks film and the only story I know for sure coming out in 2018 is another round of Snyder writing Joker.Another example is that of Damian is being pushed in the animated line while the comic writers have chosen Duke as the golden boy.Between Rises, Telltale Batman and Gotham you have to admit it's the mainstream media that's pushing her not the comics writers. King's upcoming Batman arcs are welcome but they do seem belated, still better late than never. _I am Suicide and I am Bane_ belong in 2012-13 not 2016-2017. There were ofcourse some attempts ofcourse like Arkham War and Valentine Catwoman a while back but they fizzled out fast.

Edit:Meant Valentine, not Nocenti.

----------


## Atlanta96

To be fair outside media doesn't have that big an effect on comic sales (trade sales might go up a little, but not drastically) but it still doesn't excuse the way Catwoman has been treated recently. I guess they're afraid to push her because she's associated with hyper-sexuality and they're afraid of another backlash like Winicks Catwoman run got for being, well, really bad. Harley gets away with it because she's so popular, too bad DC ruined Selina's chances of being that popular anytime soon because of her long string of New 52 failures.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> To be fair outside media doesn't have that big an effect on comic sales (trade sales might go up a little, but not drastically) but it still doesn't excuse the way Catwoman has been treated recently. I guess they're afraid to push her because she's associated with hyper-sexuality and they're afraid of another backlash like Winicks Catwoman run got for being, well, really bad. Harley gets away with it because she's so popular, too bad DC ruined Selina's chances of being that popular anytime soon because of her long string of New 52 failures.


It's not about sales though, it's about opportunity, under normal circumstances Catwoman wouldn't get the time of the day so why not capitalize on the movie (TDKR) and write a story? and I think a cumulative effect of cross promotion does benefit in the long run. It's why we have had all those SS comics out there, Marvel has also benefited from that. I just hope DC does a proper and well hyped Deathstroke story when the film comes out. If they do Joker again I'm gonna riot.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I guess they're afraid to push her because she's associated with hyper-sexuality and they're afraid of another backlash like Winicks Catwoman run got for being, well, really bad.


I think it should be mandatory for anyone writing Catwoman to play Bayonetta(video-game). You can be hyper-sexual and still be a strong, independent and powerful woman. It's not a black and white issue.

----------


## Dr Quinch

> I think it should be mandatory for anyone writing Catwoman to play Bayonetta(video-game). You can be hyper-sexual and still be a strong, independent and powerful woman. It's not a black and white issue.


Oddly the Japanese seem to be much better at creating strong-yet-feminine characters these days in video games, manga and anime than their western counterparts are.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think it should be mandatory for anyone writing Catwoman to play Bayonetta(video-game). You can be hyper-sexual and still be a strong, independent and powerful woman. It's not a black and white issue.


Oh yeah, Bayonetta makes a way better Catwoman than Selina herself does nowadays. I still recommend Tim Seeley for a new Catwoman series, who knows how to balance good character development and racy stuff and isn't afraid to push some buttons with his work. Creators shouldn't have to tone down characters to satisfy people, just put them out in full force. People lie that, it's what made Harley so popular.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> While I'm not gonna ask for a Catwoman panel I have to admit the Bat office has rather strange priorities. TDKR was the perfect time to highlight Catwoman and Bane for that matter, DC simply chose to do nothing. Instead Snyder was too busy writing his Joker story while Selina was stuck with Winick(and Nocenti not long after). The only thing we got was Talia in Batman INC and that's only because Morrison was already writing her. Similarly now Deathstroke has been cast as the villain in Afflecks film and the only story I know for sure coming out in 2018 is another round of Snyder writing Joker.Another example is that of Damian is being pushed in the animated line while the comic writers have chosen Duke as the golden boy.Between Rises, Telltale Batman and Gotham you have to admit it's the mainstream media that's pushing her not the comics writers. King's upcoming Batman arcs are welcome but they do seem belated, still better late than never. _I am Suicide and I am Bane_ belong in 2012-13 not 2016-2017. There were ofcourse some attempts ofcourse like Arkham War and Nocenti's Catwoman a while back but they fizzled out fast.


Re Cats and Bane, I was just telling someone else the exact same thing. It is really odd that no one thinks about synergies in the Bat Office.

Telltale and Gotham's Selina are great. Camren especially is doing wonders for Selina. She's appealing to audiences young and old (Danny Cannon's daughter loves her) and is growing up to be a lovely young lady. Even if she's not in every episode, her Twitter account has exploded to 160k+ followers, about a third more than David.

Anyway, between those two I'm good. I don't need to see her in the comics. 

After the f*ing disaster that was nu52, I actually think all comics writers (except maybe Frank Tieri) should be banned from writing her. No one can seem to come up with a take that doesn't feel like rehash or totally out of character. In the end, they all do more harm than good and just erode her popularity further. Comics is a niche market anyway so who cares. There are better avenues to reach a mainstream audience to build her brand

As for this "second lead" business, obviously King is trying to market the book to an ever shrinking fanbase thanks to incompetent asinine decisions from editorial. Poor guy, he's got his work cut out for him. Batcat or not, if he goes for nu52 status quo (same costume, same ugly hair, generic personality, with all the fun and sexiness sucked out of her, etc) she won't be second lead for long.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Re Cats and Bane, I was just telling someone else the exact same thing. It is really odd that no one thinks about synergies in the Bat Office.
> 
> Telltale and Gotham's Selina are great. Camren especially is doing wonders for Selina. She's appealing to audiences young and old (Danny Cannon's daughter loves her) and is growing up to be a lovely young lady. Even if she's not in every episode, her Twitter account has exploded to 160k+ followers, about a third more than David.
> 
> Anyway, between those two I'm good. I don't need to see her in the comics. 
> 
> After the f*ing disaster that was nu52, I actually think all comics writers (except maybe Frank Tieri) should be banned from writing her. No one can seem to come up with a take that doesn't feel like rehash or totally out of character. In the end, they all do more harm than good and just erode her popularity further. Comics is a niche market anyway so who cares. There are better avenues to reach a mainstream audience to build her brand
> 
> As for this "second lead" business, obviously King is trying to market the book to an ever shrinking fanbase thanks to incompetent asinine decisions from editorial. Poor guy, he's got his work cut out for him. Batcat or not, if he goes for nu52 status quo (same costume, same ugly hair, generic personality, with all the fun and sexiness sucked out of her, etc) she won't be second lead for long.


I really hope King knocks it out of the park, that's pretty much the only thing that I can say at this point.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Oh yeah, Bayonetta makes a way better Catwoman than Selina herself does nowadays. I still recommend Tim Seeley for a new Catwoman series, who knows how to balance good character development and racy stuff and isn't afraid to push some buttons with his work. Creators shouldn't have to tone down characters to satisfy people, just put them out in full force. People lie that, it's what made Harley so popular.


Morrison/Paquette's take on sexy catwoman in Batman Inc was well received. She got a lot of good buzz around it. Winick just didn't have any finesse so it came out really gross. An editor with any common sense would have stopped that from going out the door but oh well...

We already saw Seeley write her in Eternal. And no, it was at times cringeworthy.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> No, I understand that, but DC is in control of all this. Where were they when the shitty Catwoman movie was being made without Selina Kyle? Where was their advertising for "Catwoman: A Celebration of 75 Years"? Why the hell are the characters expected to do all the leg work in their own promotion? Harley's popularity was a complete accident. A couple years ago they wouldn't even give her the time of day. Now they're kissing her ass. 
> 
> Where were they when Winick and Nocenti were wreaking havoc on the character? Where were they when Snyder made her a crime boss? Where were they when Valentine was forced to write this OOC character?
> 
> Also, given that the shitty DCEU is now the driving force behind the comics, what is Catwoman's role in the movies? 
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if Catwoman doesn't make an appearance, let alone impress in the DCEU movies she's done as a character. You'll see her once in a blue moon whenever Batman gets blue balls, which is pretty much how they treat her now.


THIS. And they have no one to blame but themselves. (Of course they'll blame it on her even though she's a mainstream icon that they let various people fuck up). Warner Brothers is really manned by incompetent idiots -- from the top all the way down.

----------


## LimeBright

> Telltale and Gotham's Selina are great. Camren especially is doing wonders for Selina. She's appealing to audiences young and old (Danny Cannon's daughter loves her) and is growing up to be a lovely young lady. Even if she's not in every episode, her Twitter account has exploded to 160k+ followers, about a third more than David


Which comes back to the character's personality, because Camren is a young girl. I mean, unless people are really into sexualizing themselves with minors, that is the crux of why she's being liked (BatCat romance aside). I also loved Arkham series Catwoman. I feel these days in the comics (and even in TDKR, however, they balanced it out with some fun awesomeness), they are making her rather serious and "gritty". They're seeping her into Batman mood territory, and while it works for him, it doesn't work for her. She's better as a sassy, smart, rather child like, strong woman than someone who's some death seeker. And seems depressed half the time. At least, that's the overall feeling I've gotten lately. Catwoman's cameo on Ivy's story that one time, I really liked her portrayal there, for instance. We can criticize Balent for the boobs, but his Selina was great.

I feel if she _does_ appear in the Batfleck film, or any future DCEU, it should be more fun than dark. Have her play games, physical games or mind games. Have it be known that she only gets caught when she _wants_ to, as a testament to her skill as a thief, rather than be easily thwarted. Have her clap back really good and be snarky. Since she's a woman, there should be a sense of maturity and sensuality, but have her not be solemn. Her abilities should speak on her seriousness. Again, there's always a balance.

I don't want to get my hopes up with her being "second lead", since I do not want to get disappointed. I'll wait to get excited, lol.


Also, I agree DC did Bane wrong. He finally got an accurate portrayal on an anticipated film, but they did nothing with it.

----------


## darkseidpwns

I believe they did nothing with those characters after TDKR because the comicbook industry is plagued by pettiness, nostalgia and entitlement. It is no secret that Bane was lowballed for being too small and Catwoman for supposedly being unsexy. They didn't want anything to do with Nolans realistic universe. They just wanted it to wrap so they could move on to the DCEU.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Which comes back to the character's personality, because Camren is a young girl. I mean, unless people are really into sexualizing themselves with minors, that is the crux of why she's being liked (BatCat romance aside). I also loved Arkham series Catwoman. I feel these days in the comics (and even in TDKR, however, they balanced it out with some fun awesomeness), they are making her rather serious and "gritty". They're seeping her into Batman mood territory, and while it works for him, it doesn't work for her. She's better as a sassy, smart, rather child like, strong woman than someone who's some death seeker. And seems depressed half the time. At least, that's the overall feeling I've gotten lately. Catwoman's cameo on Ivy's story that one time, I really liked her portrayal there, for instance. We can criticize Balent for the boobs, but his Selina was great.
> 
> I feel if she _does_ appear in the Batfleck film, or any future DCEU, it should be more fun than dark. Have her play games, physical games or mind games. Have it be known that she only gets caught when she _wants_ to, as a testament to her skill as a thief, rather than be easily thwarted. Have her clap back really good and be snarky. Since she's a woman, there should be a sense of maturity and sensuality, but have her not be solemn. Her abilities should speak on her seriousness. Again, there's always a balance.
> 
> I don't want to get my hopes up with her being "second lead", since I do not want to get disappointed. I'll wait to get excited, lol.
> 
> 
> Also, I agree DC did Bane wrong. He finally got an accurate portrayal on an anticipated film, but they did nothing with it.


Camren has the vivacity and charm that a young Catwoman should have. That's why she clicks. Casting hit gold on that one.

I agree about Balent. Serious and gritty is exactly why she's in the pickle she's in today. Morrison got her (for 2 issues) Scott Snyder & Genevieve (sticking to their Btubaker gold standard) did not. Hence why this whole mob boss Selina just fell flat on its face. Yes, she had a lot of power (Snyder's selling point), but that Selina was about as fun and sexy as a concrete block about to have a nervous breakdown. She even dressed like one. Just one whole bag of yuck. 

You know, karma dictates that some day, some idiot editor at DC is going to say Harley needs to be serious and gritty. I'm going to relish that one.

I actually don't want a DCEU Catwoman considering who's manning the ship (Johns/Snyder) but your ideas are spot on.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> They just wanted it to wrap so they could move on to the DCEU.


I doubt that. They were genuinely surprised when the MCU snowballed into what it is today. This tells me that they had no plans to create a movie universe. That's something Marvel came up with.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I doubt that. They were genuinely surprised when the MCU snowballed into what it is today. This tells me that they had no plans to create a movie universe. That's something Marvel came up with.


I meant that they didn't want to go with what they perceived as Nolan's supposedly neutered vision. Nostalgia and entitlement is pretty strong among fans and creators of comics, they just wanted the Nolan movies to end so that the "true" versions could appear down the line. If Anne was replaced by a some other sex pot with a zipper and Bane was played by a wrestler I guarantee they'd have tried to milk it in the comics. That's what I believe.

----------


## godisawesome

> Camren has the vivacity and charm that a young Catwoman should have. That's why she clicks. Casting hit gold on that one.
> 
> I agree about Balent. Serious and gritty is exactly why she's in the pickle she's in today. Morrison got her (for 2 issues) Scott Snyder & Genevieve (sticking to their Btubaker gold standard) did not. Hence why this whole mob boss Selina just fell flat on its face. Yes, she had a lot of power (Snyder's selling point), but that Selina was about as fun and sexy as a concrete block about to have a nervous breakdown. She even dressed like one. Just one whole bag of yuck. 
> 
> You know, karma dictates that some day, some idiot editor at DC is going to say Harley needs to be serious and gritty. I'm going to relish that one.
> 
> I actually don't want a DCEU Catwoman considering who's manning the ship (Johns/Snyder) but your ideas are spot on.


There's a funny thing I noticed about Catpin; her appearances in Batman Eternal were a lot more colorful and fun. I kind of feel like Snyder, Tynion, and co., meant for a Catwoman Crime Boss who would be a fun frenemy in the underworld running numerous nightclubs and casinos. Than when they gave the actual solo to Valentine, she wanted a Borgia-style crime noir, so her entire style was the opposite in terms of vibrancy.

----------


## Atlanta96

Can they just make Selina exactly how she was in Arkham City? That was perfect. Anti-hero, fun, energetic, snarky, hilarious, and instantly memorable. They didn't try to reimagine Selina, or shock people with her portrayal. They just showed her as she is with no restrictions. And it worked. Take note, comics.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Can they just make Selina exactly how she was in Arkham City? That was perfect. Anti-hero, fun, energetic, snarky, hilarious, and instantly memorable. They didn't try to reimagine Selina, or shock people with her portrayal. They just showed her as she is with no restrictions. And it worked. Take note, comics.


Nah AC characters were trash, I pretty much feel that way for almost all Rocksteady characters save a select few like Pyg ,Joker etc. Now Telltale Selina, that's a good character.

----------


## Agent Z

How are the AC characters trash?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Nah AC characters were trash, I pretty much feel that way for almost all Rocksteady characters save a select few like Pyg ,Joker etc. Now Telltale Selina, that's a good character.


Trash? AC Selina had a lot of personality and independence. She wasn't a generic sexy cat-burglar, her character was more defined than any other adaptation I've seen besides maybe Batman Returns. What was wrong with the game that made her trash?

----------


## darkseidpwns

Because Rocksteady never gave me the impression that they ever bothered to do any research beyond reading a wiki. Their characters are mostly shallow and supercial, excluding a precious few that Dini favored personally. Catwoman in particular was laughably oversexualized and devoid of depth. That's a mistake Telltale isn't making.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> There's a funny thing I noticed about Catpin; her appearances in Batman Eternal were a lot more colorful and fun. I kind of feel like Snyder, Tynion, and co., meant for a Catwoman Crime Boss who would be a fun frenemy in the underworld running numerous nightclubs and casinos. Than when they gave the actual solo to Valentine, she wanted a Borgia-style crime noir, so her entire style was the opposite in terms of vibrancy.


Maybe that was the intent but thought her scenes in Eternal were so poorly executed (inconsistent art made her look hideous at times) and sometimes bordered on illogical. That book was pure cash grab.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Because Rocksteady never gave me the impression that they ever bothered to do any research beyond reading a wiki. Their characters are mostly shallow and supercial, excluding a precious few that Dini favored personally. Catwoman in particular was laughably oversexualized and devoid of depth. That's a mistake Telltale isn't making.


Laughably over-sexualized and devoid of depth? I didn't get that at all. Sure we didn't get to dive into her personal story, but her personality was fully-realized and intriguing. I wanted to play a game with her as the star. 

Telltale Selina is good as well.

----------


## Aahz

> Camren has the vivacity and charm that a young Catwoman should have. That's why she clicks. Casting hit gold on that one.


I have somehow problems imagine her as an adult Catwoman, I don't think that she would have the look for it, I think that she is one of these actors who still look like teens in their mid twenties.
And I have the same problem with David.

----------


## godisawesome

> Laughably over-sexualized and devoid of depth? I didn't get that at all. Sure we didn't get to dive into her personal story, but her personality was fully-realized and intriguing. I wanted to play a game with her as the star. 
> 
> Telltale Selina is good as well.


I think he was thinking of the art style (which has all the issues that comic book art has, so I'm not going to give judgement right here) and perhaps the way that Rocksteady approached _*all*_ Batfamily characters in Arkham Knight; as hostage coupons to be cashed in regularly throughout the game. We also may be seeing a disagreement over the more 1990's attitude they gave her, what with her constant smirking and flirting (which I liked).

Which is why I'm loving TellTale's Catwoman so far: she seems to blend the fun nature of the 1990's Catwoman with the mercenary nature of TDKR's Catwoman. And I really feel like Bailey's voice acting is aping Barbeau's from BTAS.

----------


## LimeBright

Arkham series Selina was amazing. Why would that be in any way trash? The over sexualization? They toned it down thankfully, but her characterization was so good it didn't matter. The comics do the same all the time anyway. She had complete control and agency, which is the most important thing in my opinion, she was sensual and sarcastic to the point where she was hilarious, and took things lightheartedly. She was brilliant and fooled Batman into her gambit in _Origins: Blackgate_, was flirty but at the same time aloof with Bruce, had the audacity to verbally state she was going to rob a museum in front of him and left to do just that (he didn't do anything, lmao), was a competent fighter on her own (to the point where _she_ had to save Batman or else he would have legit died), and ended the entire series $2MIL richer, lol. Probably continued to do whatever the hell she wanted in Gotham from then on. You get more depth in Hugo Strange's tapes, yet you don't need that because they rounded up her character well. It's not her game.

Can't forget how she was totally nonchalant once Batman told her he was technically going to go into hiding and will not see him again. You would think she'd be more emotional and teary, but she just went ahead to get her revenge on Riddler after.

Her game play was also very well done and people _enjoyed_ her. I've read comments where they suggested that, since Rocksteady "finished" the series, that she should get her own.

Honestly, Arkham has been my _most_ favorite incarnation of Catwoman so far. It has yet to be topped. They hit everything right. It seems games in general tend to _get_ the character more. She shines in them.







> Camren has the vivacity and charm that a young Catwoman should have. That's why she clicks. Casting hit gold on that one.
> 
> I agree about Balent. Serious and gritty is exactly why she's in the pickle she's in today. Morrison got her (for 2 issues) Scott Snyder & Genevieve (sticking to their Btubaker gold standard) did not. Hence why this whole mob boss Selina just fell flat on its face. Yes, she had a lot of power (Snyder's selling point), but that Selina was about as fun and sexy as a concrete block about to have a nervous breakdown. She even dressed like one. Just one whole bag of yuck. 
> 
> You know, karma dictates that some day, some idiot editor at DC is going to say Harley needs to be serious and gritty. I'm going to relish that one.
> 
> I actually don't want a DCEU Catwoman considering who's manning the ship (Johns/Snyder) but your ideas are spot on.


I feel like every writer is trying to paint a different Catwoman following what another did previously, with their own interpretation, instead of just having a specific list of what she _needs_ to be. That's what happens when you get all kinds of people working on one character, yet things should be a lot more cohesive than this. And I was flabbergasted at some of them because when you think about it, this is how they _see_ Selina. She lost what made her so charming in the first place. I'm hoping to get that back eventually.

I don't get Harley. I don't get why she would even be in a line like DC Superhero Girls (_any_ villain, really). But I also don't care too much about her. She's not the Harley I grew up with and she's being changed to feed to the current generation and to keep the sales going. My concern is elsewhere.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Yeah, what Godisawesome said, if there was meat to the character then I wouldn't have minded the way they used her but it was a general problem with the Rocksteady games. Notice how the two women in AO are radically less sexualized compared to Ivy, Harley, Talia and Selina. Even the way Selina, Talia etc moved and talked was oversexualized.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yeah, what Godisawesome said, if there was meat to the character then I wouldn't have minded the way they used her but it was a general problem with the Rocksteady games. Notice how the two women in AO are radically less sexualized compared to Ivy, Harley, Talia and Selina. Even the way Selina, Talia etc moved and talked was oversexualized.


She's very flirtatious, manipulative, bit of a femme fatale, it kind of makes sense for her. Not so much for someone like Huntress or Talia, but Selina does lend herself to a more sexual portrayal based on who she is. It's not JUST for fanservise, it compliments her character.

And I don't think you can have a woman in a skintight outfit moving like a cat, as she did in the game, without it looking a little sexy.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Yeah, what Godisawesome said, if there was meat to the character then I wouldn't have minded the way they used her but it was a general problem with the Rocksteady games. Notice how the two women in AO are radically less sexualized compared to Ivy, Harley, Talia and Selina. Even the way Selina, Talia etc moved and talked was oversexualized.


You sir, are a person who can't tell the difference between being sexualized, and being sensual/sexual. That's your problem. 

Catwoman is a sensual/sexual person when well-written, which she was in the Arkham games. 

Again, play a game like Bayonetta if you want to see the difference.

Just because a female character is scantily clad does not mean she's being sexualized.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Just out of curiosity. Can anyone name all the men Selina has been with romantically and sexually over the years? 

I know of only five not named Bruce Wayne. 

Sparky, Wildcat, Slam Bradley, Sam Bradley, and some dude(whose name I forgot) who taught her the ropes of being a thief before she betrayed him.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> You sir, are a person who can't tell the difference between being sexualized, and being sensual/sexual. That's your problem. 
> 
> Catwoman is a sensual/sexual person when well-written, which she was in the Arkham games. 
> 
> Again, play a game like Bayonetta if you want to see the difference.
> 
> Just because a female character is scantily clad does not mean she's being sexualized.


I can tell the difference just fine thank you and Selina wasn't scantily clad, nor was Talia or Harley for that matter. It's not about the skin, just look at the character models, their movements, their voices etc but I digress, we all like Telltale's Batman anyway and the Arkham games were after all primarily designed to appeal to teenage boys. The Arkham games simply lacked meat in characterization(the ones made by Rocksteady) and had an immature take on sensuality.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

i think it's sad Selina is lucky to be a sidekick in batman's book while harley gets to act all chaotic and random in Her Own Solo Book Suicide Squad And The Little Black Book Series

i read the first 3 issues of harley's rebirth series and it boggles the mind that this is what people wanna see

----------


## tbgo

As Michelle Pfeiffer once explained, Selina's sexuality sometimes comes out as a sort of playfulness or as an act of a manipulation -- it's used as a weapon.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

how does catwoman really go from one of batman's most iconic characters to someone that DC can't even be bothered to showcase in her own book let alone anyone's book?

----------


## vasir12

> how does catwoman really go from one of batman's most iconic characters to someone that DC can't even be bothered to showcase in her own book let alone anyone's book?


she's clearly being showcased in Batman, though.

----------


## Atlanta96

> how does catwoman really go from one of batman's most iconic characters to someone that DC can't even be bothered to showcase in her own book let alone anyone's book?


She's going to be in the next Batman arc. She's even on some of the covers. Could be the modern equivalent of Hush in terms of Bruce and Selina's relationship.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> she's clearly being showcased in Batman, though.


for one story arc and then who knows where they take it from there

Catwoman's Involvement in Any DC Rebirth Titles for the longest time was a mystery until Tom King Let it be known that catwoman would play a role in the "I AM Suicide" Story Arc

but what will she exactly do....who can say

----------


## Caivu

Well, Batman #9 answers the question of where Selina's been...

*spoilers:*
In Arkham, having received the death penalty for over 200 murders.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Well, Batman #9 answers the question of where Selina's been...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> In Arkham, having received the death penalty for over 200 murders.
> *end of spoilers*


WAT?!

Also, shout out to Camren Bicondova. She was incredible in the last episode of Gotham, 3x05. She embodies the character of Catwoman.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, Batman #9 answers the question of where Selina's been...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> In Arkham, having received the death penalty for over 200 murders.
> *end of spoilers*


Did I miss something, or will King explore that in the next issues?

----------


## Punisher007

> Just out of curiosity. Can anyone name all the men Selina has been with romantically and sexually over the years? 
> 
> I know of only five not named Bruce Wayne. 
> 
> Sparky, Wildcat, Slam Bradley, Sam Bradley, and some dude(whose name I forgot) who taught her the ropes of being a thief before she betrayed him.


Yeah here "reputation" has been exaggerated in some circles.  Well she wasn't a man  obviously, but you could add Emiko to the list as well.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Yeah here "reputation" has been exaggerated in some circles.  Well she wasn't a man  obviously, but you could add Emiko to the list as well.


I assume you mean Eiko Hasigawa and not Emiko, Green Arrow's little sister. LOL

Really hope the Batman #9 revelation is just a cover story...

----------


## millernumber1

Is there a chance that Selina, for some reason, has chosen to take responsibility for Eiko's revenge killings for her father?

I thought the reveal today was awesome, and I'm really excited to see King and Janin take Selina to the next level!

----------


## LimeBright

Selina's hair looks horrid, plain, and thin. Just reinforces what I mean that artists can barely make short hair work. Unless that's her "jail" look.

As for the reveal, well, I'm not going to jump into conclusions yet until things are unfolded throughout this plot run. Writers _should_ know better.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Selina's hair looks horrid, plain, and thin. Just reinforces what I mean that artists can barely make short hair work. Unless that's her "jail" look.


I actually agree this time, though I disagree that this reinforces your point.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Jeez, Gotham is so good, and Camren Bicondova is knocking it out of the park. Here's a good analysis of that final scene between her and Bruce in 3x05: http://kathemy.tumblr.com/post/15207...a-helping-hand

This show is deep and satisfying in a way none of the other DC TV shows manage to be.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Well, Batman #9 answers the question of where Selina's been...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> In Arkham, having received the death penalty for over 200 murders.
> *end of spoilers*


Wait, how did Selina go from riding off on her motorcycle at the end of New 52 issue #52 to there.  And since when did she start doing that sort of thing? 
Did I miss some other books out there in the interim?

----------


## Caivu

> Wait, how did Selina go from riding off on her motorcycle at the end of New 52 issue #52 to there.  And since when did she start doing that sort of thing? 
> Did I miss some other books out there in the interim?


You didn't miss anything. We don't know yet what's up with her, that's the entire point.

----------


## LimeBright

> I actually agree this time, though I disagree that this reinforces your point.


I can probably name less than five artists who have done short hair on her any justice (one of them is Adam Hughes). Even the men of the DC universe at this point have better hair.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I can probably name less than five artists who have done short hair on her any justice (one of them is Adam Hughes). Even the men of the DC universe at this point have better hair.


Ain't that the truth. That pixie has got to go.

----------


## Godlike13

I dig the short hair  :Embarrassment:

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Ain't that the truth. That pixie has got to go.


Please god no. I don't want the long hair.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Please god no. I don't want the long hair.


I love her Balent era tresses but ok with 
Mid length bob like how Dustin Nguyen drew her in eternal intro or curly hair ala Camren.

I notice she's growing her hair longer too...

image.jpg

I can't get over how great these two look together by the way. My baby batcat, all grown up!

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Jeez, Gotham is so good, and Camren Bicondova is knocking it out of the park. Here's a good analysis of that final scene between her and Bruce in 3x05: http://kathemy.tumblr.com/post/15207...a-helping-hand
> 
> This show is deep and satisfying in a way none of the other DC TV shows manage to be.


They're killing it this season. Camren's really earned her place to be withe likes of Julie, Eartha, Lee, Michelle & Anne. Love her to pieces.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I can probably name less than five artists who have done short hair on her any justice (one of them is Adam Hughes). Even the men of the DC universe at this point have better hair.


I think Guillem March drew her hair well. So did Darwyn Cooke from what I've seen, but I haven't read his run.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Joss Whedon wants to direct a Catwoman film, he says Hathaway is his pick. If I were a WB exec I'd atleast talk to him and nice to see that the Avengers director liked TDKR.

----------


## Dr Quinch

> Joss Whedon wants to direct a Catwoman film, he says Hathaway is his pick. If I were a WB exec I'd atleast talk to him and nice to see that the Avengers director liked TDKR.


This may be heresy but I don't actually think Joss Whedon is all that great at writing female characters.  I'm sure he thinks he's writing "strong women" but all his females seem to be skinny waifs who start crying when things get too much for them. That's not how I see Catwoman.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Joss Whedon wants to direct a Catwoman film, he says Hathaway is his pick. If I were a WB exec I'd atleast talk to him and nice to see that the Avengers director liked TDKR.


Oh god no, not Joss. AoU was so mediocre that I wouldn't trust him with another comic book film until he can prove he still has talent with something else.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Joss Whedon wants to direct a Catwoman film, he says Hathaway is his pick. If I were a WB exec I'd atleast talk to him and nice to see that the Avengers director liked TDKR.


I was ok with that until someone pointed out he paired Nat with Hulk. Lol. No thanks.

Jonah and Chris Nolan + Hathaway Selina Kyle movie. No masks just 100% grifting.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Joss Whedon wants to direct a Catwoman film, he says Hathaway is his pick. If I were a WB exec I'd atleast talk to him and nice to see that the Avengers director liked TDKR.


I'm down for it. Anything would be an improvement over that Halle Berry blasphemy.  Selina deserves a decent movie.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> They're killing it this season. Camren's really earned her place to be withe likes of Julie, Eartha, Lee, Michelle & Anne. Love her to pieces.


I think Camren is doing an even better job than any of those actresses. She's quickly becoming my favorite version of the character.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> This may be heresy but I don't actually think Joss Whedon is all that great at writing female characters.  I'm sure he thinks he's writing "strong women" but all his females seem to be skinny waifs who start crying when things get too much for them. That's not how I see Catwoman.


Including Buffy and Faith?

----------


## LimeBright

I like Joss Whedon. I think he's good for quirky, witty films and decent plot direction. I see him do Selina well due to his type of humor. Not sure about having Anne again though.






> I think Guillem March drew her hair well. So did Darwyn Cooke from what I've seen, but I haven't read his run.


Yeah, the other one was Darwyn Cooke, lol. But most of the time, her hair is a miss. I just can't understand. I sit there and see Bruce have better hair, and then I question why they can't work it on a woman.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I like Joss Whedon. I think he's good for quirky, witty films and decent plot direction. I see him do Selina well due to his type of humor. Not sure about having Anne again though.


Yah, I usually loved the dialogue in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. I'm not to keen on Anne playing her again either. She wasn't horrible, but Anne isn't who I picture when I think of Selina.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Yah, I usually loved the dialogue in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. I'm not to keen on Anne playing her again either. She wasn't horrible, but Anne isn't who I picture when I think of Selina.


I liked her mostly because they got the hair color and ethnicity right.  While people loved Michelle Pfeiffer's version, this was the most true to the more recent comic books version of Catwoman.  
And I certainly don't think of Halle Berry when I think of Catwoman. I suppose any good actress could do the same thing given the material to work with, but Anne looked good in the costume 
and delivered her lines with the right amount of sassiness. For me this was the most like Catwoman of live action Catwomans since Julie Newmar. So I'm down with bringing back Anne.

----------


## Dr Quinch

> Including Buffy and Faith?


Especially Buffy, whom I found annoying.   I seem to recall Faith having more grit to her but then she was an antagonist rather than a protagonist.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Telltale Catwoman is out today. Spoilers already on YouTube. *THAT* scene is very well done.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Telltale Catwoman is out today. Spoilers already on YouTube. *THAT* scene is very well done.


Telltale Catwoman? They made an episode about her?

----------


## TsukiSentinel

I think the ultimate problem with Selina's treatment in comics is that she's not given the respect she deserves. She's one of the oldest most iconic female characters DC owns. Older than even Wonder Woman herself, yet she's treated like dog shit more often than not. She's supposed to be a feminist icon, equal to Wonder Woman, but different. One of the reasons I've been so adamant about Selina keeping her sex working past is because that's such an important feminist issue. Selina isn't Diana or Lois Lane. She doesn't exist to make men or prudes comfortable. Quite the opposite. She represents female empowerment of a completely different sort. Self sufficiency and survival, even at the expense of what others would define as dignity. Independence, even if you're prone to making bad decisions. Owning your own sexuality, even if you use it to survive. She's not the ideal Diana represents and she's not the modern career-focused woman like Lois is. Selina should represent the oppressed, impoverished, and underprivileged women that aren't born lucky. 

Brubaker understood this, but the only lesson DC took away from his run is that Selina shouldn't enjoy her life anymore. 

The only female characters that get any respect from DC are the ones they can whore out.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think the ultimate problem with Selina's treatment in comics is that she's not given the respect she deserves. She's one of the oldest most iconic female characters DC owns. Older than even Wonder Woman herself, yet she's treated like dog shit more often than not. She's supposed to be a feminist icon, equal to Wonder Woman, but different. One of the reasons I've been so adamant about Selina keeping her sex working past is because that's such an important feminist issue. Selina isn't Diana or Lois Lane. *She doesn't exist to make men or prudes comfortable.* Quite the opposite. She represents female empowerment of a completely different sort. Self sufficiency and survival, even at the expense of what others would define as dignity. Independence, even if you're prone to making bad decisions. Owning your own sexuality, even if you use it to survive. She's not the ideal Diana represents and she's not the modern career-focused woman like Lois is. Selina should represent the oppressed, impoverished, and underprivileged women that aren't born lucky. 
> 
> Brubaker understood this, but the only lesson DC took away from his run is that Selina shouldn't enjoy her life anymore. 
> 
> The only female characters that get any respect from DC are the ones they can whore out.


Neither do Diana or Lois. Not that I disagree with the rest of what you say.

Also, um, I'm not sure if "whore out" is how you should describe DC's advertising of their female characters.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Also, um, I'm not sure if "whore out" is how you should describe DC's advertising of their female characters.


It just means financially exploiting something. Marvel did it to SpiderMan in the 90s, Deadpool now, and DC does it to Harley Quinn.

And if they learn how to make Selina interesting without offending people, they'll do it to her too.

----------


## Frontier

> Telltale Catwoman? They made an episode about her?


No, but they should totally do a Catwoman mini-series ala Michonne from The Walking Dead. She's just really awesome there  :Big Grin: .

----------


## tbgo

> Joss Whedon wants to direct a Catwoman film, he says Hathaway is his pick. If I were a WB exec I'd atleast talk to him and nice to see that the Avengers director liked TDKR.


Well that's DOA. Hathaway is such a polarizing figure, generally despised by the general public (not to mention her co-workers). No one wants to see her again. They might as well do Catwoman 2 starring Halle Berry.  :Wink:

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex
> 
> 
> Wait, how did Selina go from riding off on her motorcycle at the end of New 52 issue #52 to there.  And since when did she start doing that sort of thing? 
> Did I miss some other books out there in the interim?
> 
> 
> You didn't miss anything. We don't know yet what's up with her, that's the entire point.


I'm hoping she's really just there as a Trojan kitty and has been working with Bruce on this.



Tim Sale variant cover for issue #10.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I'm hoping she's really just there as a Trojan kitty and has been working with Bruce on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Tim Sale variant cover for issue #10.


I love Tim Sale but she looks hideous. I hate that costume.

----------


## Caivu

Catwoman's entry from the new, updated edition of the DC Encyclopedia:

20161028_153837.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Catwoman's entry from the new, updated edition of the DC Encyclopedia:
> 
> 20161028_153837.jpg


Adam Hughes front and center, nice! He's still my favorite Catwoman artist of all time, if she gets a new series I totally want him on covers.

----------


## Dr Will Hatch

> Well that's DOA. Hathaway is such a polarizing figure, generally despised by the general public (not to mention her co-workers). No one wants to see her again. They might as well do Catwoman 2 starring Halle Berry.


I would just love someone from the Nolanverse to cross over into the DCEU, even if she's not exactly the same iteration of Catwoman.

----------


## vitaminbee

I'd watch a Catwoman movie based on Hathaway's version, like a prequel of sorts. Though I know it will never happen, I thought it was the most accurate take of the character on screen and if we got something loosely inspired by Darwyn Cooke's Selina's Big Score, it could be rather good. 

I'm also bummed they didn't go the route they went with TDK with the animated series telling other tales that "could" have happened between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. It would have been cool to see an animated Catwoman short about her time before TDKR appearance and how she got the suit.

----------


## tbgo

> I'd watch a Catwoman movie based on Hathaway's version, like a prequel of sorts. Though I know it will never happen, *I thought it was the most accurate take of the character on screen* and if we got something loosely inspired by Darwyn Cooke's Selina's Big Score, it could be rather good. 
> 
> I'm also bummed they didn't go the route they went with TDK with the animated series telling other tales that "could" have happened between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. It would have been cool to see an animated Catwoman short about her time before TDKR appearance and how she got the suit.


No claws, no whip, not referred to as Catwoman. Selina Kyle with a gun? Really? That's accurate?  :Confused:  It was boring as hell. Nolan can't direct women and didn't want the character in the film. His brother was the one pushing for it. It showed.

----------


## Caivu

> No claws, no whip, not referred to as Catwoman. Selina Kyle with a gun? Really? That's accurate?  It was boring as hell. Nolan can't direct women and didn't want the character in the film. His brother was the one pushing for it. It showed.


In terms of personality, she was pretty good. The claws, the whip, etc... all that stuff is icing.

Selina with a gun totally makes sense. She killed Black Mask with one, after all.

----------


## millernumber1

I have to admit, I'm not a terribly "serious" Catwoman/Selina Kyle fan - I really enjoyed Genevieve Valentine's run on the title, and thought Anne Hathaway was really enjoyable in the role. But I think there's something really compelling about any portrayal of Catwoman where she's torn between good and evil, and Bruce is torn between her and his single-minded mission.

----------


## Frontier

In terms of the look, attitude, and dynamic with Bruce/Batman, I think Hathatway pretty much had the character down to pat, and her suit was in-line with Catwoman's modern look (for better or worse depending on who you ask).

I thought her Catwoman was so accurate that I constantly forget she never uses a whip in that movie  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> In terms of the look, attitude, and dynamic with Bruce/Batman, I think Hathatway pretty much had the character down to pat, and her suit was in-line with Catwoman's modern look (for better or worse depending on who you ask).
> 
> I thought her Catwoman was so accurate that I constantly forget she never uses a whip in that movie .


Michelle Pfeiffer got pretty good with a whip. Did most of the whip stunts on her own.  But even sans whip, I think Hathaway came off more like the Selina Kyle in the comic books in attitude and experience being a thief.  
I don't remember reading any versions of Catwoman where she was a crazy women driven solely by personal vengeance.  She always seemed motivated to make a buck to get by and only played the reluctant hero when 
a friend was wronged to get retribution for the friend. Which was the Bat-Cat relationship in TDKR.   Not two crazy people drawn together by their insanity like they were in Batman Returns. While I loved Michelle's Catwoman
as much as I hated Halle Berry's version, neither one was all that true to the source material. And last but not least, Selina Kyle is NOT a blonde.

----------


## godisawesome

Anybody else play TellTale Batman chapter 3 and find out that TellTale Catwoman is a bookworm? I kind of liked that, especially when Bruce figured out she liked reading swashbuckling romances like The Scarlet Pimpernel and brainy books like the Gita Govinda. The former is a sneaky reference towards Catwoman and Batman's interactions throughout the years, thanks to the story featuring a dashing hero and his wife compelled to spy for the enemy.

----------


## millernumber1

> Anybody else play TellTale Batman chapter 3 and find out that TellTale Catwoman is a bookworm? I kind of liked that, especially when Bruce figured out she liked reading swashbuckling romances like The Scarlet Pimpernel and brainy books like the Gita Govinda. The former is a sneaky reference towards Catwoman and Batman's interactions throughout the years, thanks to the story featuring a dashing hero and his wife compelled to spy for the enemy.


I did! I didn't think too much about it, but that's a great point. I couldn't quite figure out the Gita Govinda, even after googling it, but it was a nice touch.

----------


## The Whovian

> In terms of the look, attitude, and dynamic with Bruce/Batman, I think Hathatway pretty much had the character down to pat, and her suit was in-line with Catwoman's modern look (for better or worse depending on who you ask).
> 
> I thought her Catwoman was so accurate that I constantly forget she never uses a whip in that movie .


Agreed. I thought Hathaway did an excellent job as Catwoman.

----------


## Atlanta96

I agree that Nolan and Hathaway did a mostly accurate job adapting the character from the comics, aside from a few key features like the whip and not even touching on her backstory. It was a good portrayal, but for the next live action Selina I'd rather see a completely new take that's 100% comic inspired. Olivia Wilde for the win  :Smile:

----------


## LimeBright

> I agree that Nolan and Hathaway did a mostly accurate job adapting the character from the comics, aside from a few key features like the whip and not even touching on her backstory. It was a good portrayal, but for the next live action Selina I'd rather see a completely new take that's 100% comic inspired. Olivia Wilde for the win


People have suggested Eva Green -




- but I don't think she likes manipulating her voice to the American accent. If she's fine with it for the sake of the role then, great.

----------


## millernumber1

> People have suggested Eva Green -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - but I don't think she likes manipulating her voice to the American accent. If she's fine with it for the sake of the role then, great.


Oooohhh, man, Eva Green should be in everything. But she does have the body, acting ability, and persona that perfectly fit Selina.

----------


## Caivu

So, the answer to the whole "Selina killed 237 people" thing...

*spoilers:*
Yeah, it seems she really did kill 237 people, all right. Doesn't seem like there's any misdirection or deeper twist to it. She wiped out an entire terrorist group singlehandedly.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> So, the answer to the whole "Selina killed 237 people" thing...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Yeah, it seems she really did kill 237 people, all right. Doesn't seem like there's any misdirection or deeper twist to it. She wiped out an entire terrorist group singlehandedly.
> *end of spoilers*


I don't know how to feel about this . . . .

----------


## Agent Z

> So, the answer to the whole "Selina killed 237 people" thing...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Yeah, it seems she really did kill 237 people, all right. Doesn't seem like there's any misdirection or deeper twist to it. She wiped out an entire terrorist group singlehandedly.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
 Well I suppose them being terrorists might make the readers a little more forgiving of it 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Frontier

> So, the answer to the whole "Selina killed 237 people" thing...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Yeah, it seems she really did kill 237 people, all right. Doesn't seem like there's any misdirection or deeper twist to it. She wiped out an entire terrorist group singlehandedly.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Yeah...this all really feels like a weird development for Selina. 

I mean suddenly one of the orphanages she lived at was bombed by terrorists who she promptly hunted down and killed one-by-one? That feels like a very unnecessary, and I guess dark, bit to add to her origin and character. As vague as it has been, her life before becoming Catwoman always seemed fairly down-to-Earth.

I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to do for her character other then that she's now got a high body count, which feels weird for Catwoman. Maybe making BatCat even more difficult to make happen? 

It just feels weird, and like something that'll probably be eventually retconned or completely dropped eventually if King doesn't have any plans to upend how straightforward it seems to look now.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## millernumber1

I'm really on the fence about Selina killing all the people. I wish we'd seen more of what happened, rather than having it all told - I liked the voice of the letter, but I think it was difficult to connect to Catwoman when she actually appeared in the issue. Hopefully that will change when King writes Catwoman in some actual scenes.

Anyone read the Catwoman Election Night special? I was...underwhelmed by both parts, honestly.

----------


## Frontier

> Anyone read the Catwoman Election Night special? I was...underwhelmed by both parts, honestly.


I'm not surprised given one of the writers involved  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

It was all the parts - the art, the dialogue, the story, the themes. Just so shallow and unappealing.

----------


## Frontier

> It was all the parts - the art, the dialogue, the story, the themes. Just so shallow and unappealing.


That sounds about what I was expecting once they announced Finch was working on it, unfortunately...

----------


## millernumber1

The one thing that was...sorta "interesting" was that it seems to play with the same backstory King is using for Batman right now.

----------


## Frontier

> The one thing that was...sorta "interesting" was that it seems to play with the same backstory King is using for Batman right now.


Hmm...in what way?

----------


## millernumber1

The whole "orphan with terrible peers" thing. It felt synergistic reading the two side by side.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Oooohhh, man, Eva Green should be in everything. But she does have the body, acting ability, and persona that perfectly fit Selina.


Yes! But I don't want a DCEU Catwoman. Its a crappy universe built in a rush to window dress Time Warner for a sale.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Anyone read the Catwoman Election Night special? I was...underwhelmed by both parts, honestly.


People warned me about Meredith, but the lovely art hooked me in.
I liked it. She was gorgeously drawn (love her hair)  and not insane. What more can you ask for.

Also, I like that it Finch didn't obviously shill for one side vs the other.

----------


## millernumber1

> People warned me about Meredith, but the lovely art hooked me in.
> I liked it. She was gorgeously drawn (love her hair)  and not insane. What more can you ask for.
> 
> Also, I like that it Finch didn't obviously shill for one side vs the other.


I liked some of the art. But the ears got too big occasionally.

I did appreciate the balanced portrayal of the expys, even if I wish she'd gone with more standard characterizations of Penguin. I mean, him running for mayor is totally plausible - but I don't buy for a second that he would sound like that.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm sorry, but "Election Night" was just dumb.

As for "Batman" #10:  It's interesting how Geoff Johns, Dan Didio, and Jim Lee supposedly created the "Rebirth" event to make DC great again by focusing on what made us fall in love with these characters in the beginning, almost like they are going to take us back to the roots of these characters.....except Catwoman. They made her a throat-slashing serial killer of terrorists. Nevermind what was written before about Catwoman. Nevermind who Selina Kyle is at the core, and how she has operated since 1940. Let's turn her into Deadpool. Only she uses nothing but little black claws on her fingertips to slay 237 terrorists single-handedly all across the world. Gee, maybe that'll make her more interesting and marketable.

*rolls eyes* 

DC, you have failed this Rebirth.
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself)

----------


## Frontier

Yeah, unless there's a big twist involved, I'm really wondering what the goal is with Catwoman's Rebirth direction because it doesn't feel very...Rebirth-y.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I'm sorry, but "Election Night" was just dumb.
> 
> As for "Batman" #10:  It's interesting how Geoff Johns, Dan Didio, and Jim Lee supposedly created the "Rebirth" event to make DC great again by focusing on what made us fall in love with these characters in the beginning, almost like they are going to take us back to the roots of these characters.....except Catwoman. They made her a throat-slashing serial killer of terrorists. Nevermind what was written before about Catwoman. Nevermind who Selina Kyle is at the core, and how she has operated since 1940. Let's turn her into Deadpool. Only she uses nothing but little black claws on her fingertips to slay 237 terrorists single-handedly all across the world. Gee, maybe that'll make her more interesting and marketable.
> 
> *rolls eyes* 
> 
> DC, you have failed this Rebirth.
> (Sorry, I couldn't help myself)


Honestly, I don't see the problem. Change isn't inherently bad. I see a lot of potential in this change.

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly, I don't see the problem. Change isn't inherently bad. I see a lot of potential in this change.


Well, change isn't inherently bad, but that doesn't necessarily make it good. 

I found this change to just be an odd thing to tack on to Catwoman going into Rebirth.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Yeah, killing 237 people up-close-and-personal doesn't exactly scream Catwoman to me. They might as well call her Blüdklaw or some other edgy 90's antihero name.

----------


## LimeBright

They're trying to make Catwoman something she's not and could never be if they portrayed her faithfully. They need to stop making her grittier, she's not Batman, she's the _antithesis_ to him. Stop giving her unnecessary, shitty baggage that no one wanted or asked for. At this point, I'm just going to pretend the 90s version of Catwoman in the comics exist, boobs included, and nothing else does. They continuously and repeatedly ruin her. The media (TV, games, cartoon, movies) have done a much better job of staying true to her than DC itself. It's asinine.






> Honestly, I don't see the problem. Change isn't inherently bad. I see a lot of potential in this change.


My impression of you so far is that anything is good as long as it's edgy or pushes out of the comfort zone/"prudeness", doesn't matter if it makes actual sense.

----------


## godisawesome

Part of the issue is that all of this happened off-screen; major changes to a character can still fall into place if you see them happen. This may end up working out in the long run, but pulling the rug out from under the audience and going "Catwoman killed _a lot_  of people" is a bit of a breakneck turn.

At least when Hal Jordan went nuts, it was an entire arc that was professionally crafted showing him losing it. You could hate the concept, but the execution made it somewhat believable.

----------


## Frontier

> Part of the issue is that all of this happened off-screen; major changes to a character can still fall into place if you see them happen. This may end up working out in the long run, but pulling the rug out from under the audience and going "Catwoman killed _a lot_  of people" is a bit of a breakneck turn.
> 
> At least when Hal Jordan went nuts, it was an entire arc that was professionally crafted showing him losing it. You could hate the concept, but the execution made it somewhat believable.


Especially compared to when she killed Black Mask, where there was that kind of build-up, and is one of the few notable kills associated with Catwoman.

----------


## Atlanta96

What if Selina really did kill those people, and this Batman arc and her All Star Batman arc are the setup for a new Catwoman series where Batman lets her escape and she's on the run as a wanted woman? What would you think of that, Selina Kyle: Most Wanted?

----------


## BatGlamorous

Wasn't there some nonsense early in Nocenti's run about there being two Catwomen? I believe it was mentioned off-handed during JLA too. Maybe (for whatever bizarre reason), King is referencing back to that and this isn't the "real" Selina.

Either way it's dumb. And yeah, Election Night was good for a laugh at the expy characters, but overall meh. "Mrs. Kitty's Home for Wayward Girls"? Really?

----------


## Caivu

> They need to stop making her grittier, she's not Batman, she's the _antithesis_ to him.


If she's the antithesis to Batman, then she _should_ be murdering loads of people.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> What if Selina really did kill those people, and this Batman arc and her All Star Batman arc are the setup for a new Catwoman series where Batman lets her escape and she's on the run as a wanted woman? What would you think of that, Selina Kyle: Most Wanted?


Sounds stupid, which is what we can expect from Snyder + Catwoman

----------


## LimeBright

> If she's the antithesis to Batman, then she _should_ be murdering loads of people.


Uh, no. They both are masked, animal themed prowlers of the night. He's a [anti]hero, she's a villain/burglar. He's a lot more serious, plagued by the loss of his parents, loyal to the mission, has a troubling psyche, etc. She's a lot less troubled, more of a free spirit, snarky, humorous, and does shit for fun more often than not. Batman will *not* kill, period, but she will kill only under the most extreme, forced circumstances when left with no other choice and if someone were to die for some reason or other while she's in the scene, oh well. Even when she did kill, it didn't leave her conscious.

What's happening now is a hard pill to swallow.

----------


## Caivu

> Uh, no.


Uh, yes. If Batman is someone who won't kill at all, the antithesis of that would be someone who kills lots of people.

Anyway, I was being intentionally pedantic as a joke in the first place. Hence the  :Stick Out Tongue: , I don't actually think that.

----------


## vitaminbee

> No claws, no whip, not referred to as Catwoman. Selina Kyle with a gun? Really? That's accurate?  It was boring as hell. Nolan can't direct women and didn't want the character in the film. His brother was the one pushing for it. It showed.


Accurate in character traits and attitude. It felt like it was the closest we got to Selina Kyle on screen.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Honestly, I don't see the problem. Change isn't inherently bad. I see a lot of potential in this change.


I change my mind. This is pretty bad.

----------


## Agent Z

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Selina is the one on death row but the Joker isn't.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Selina is the one on death row but the Joker isn't.


Well, I guess Selina's not the one using insanity as an excuse for her actions...

----------


## Tuck

> Well, I guess Selina's not the one using insanity as an excuse for her actions...


But she was being held in Arkham.  (Did I miss something and Blackgate isn't running in the comics right now?)

----------


## Frontier

> But she was being held in Arkham.  (Did I miss something and Blackgate isn't running in the comics right now?)


I guess they just assumed she was too dangerous to hold at Blackgate (or something). 

Probably the same reason Killer Croc gets sent to Arkham instead of Blackgate.

----------


## BatGlamorous

Having her kill 250+ people isn't the way to do it, but I'd definitely be here for her status quo of being a worldwide wanted master thief returning. She's been a rookie ever since the New 52 began.

----------


## Tuck

> I guess they just assumed she was too dangerous to hold at Blackgate (or something). 
> 
> Probably the same reason Killer Croc gets sent to Arkham instead of Blackgate.


They send too many Bat villains to Arkham as it is.  Riddler doesn't belong there.  He has a compulsion . . . that's not insanity.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I wonder if Selina is taking the fall for someone else who actually killed the terrorists.  One can only hope this is a farce.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

It honestly seems like DC likes punishing female characters that aren't starring in movies.

----------


## zebracross

> I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Selina is the one on death row but the Joker isn't.


exactly this!

----------


## Frontier

> It honestly seems like DC likes punishing female characters that aren't starring in movies.


Well, they're treating Black Canary pretty good...

----------


## Lhynn

They are not punishing her, they just have no idea what to do with her.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> They are not punishing her, they just have no idea what to do with her.


Don't let them have that excuse, because as soon as they hear that they get the bright idea of making yet another Batman book, or yet another Harley Quinn book. 

Funny how it's always the characters that sell that writers seem to possess a bottomless well of ideas for.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Don't let them have that excuse, because as soon as they hear that they get the bright idea of making yet another Batman book, or yet another Harley Quinn book. 
> 
> Funny how it's always the characters that sell that writers seem to possess a bottomless well of ideas for.



that's the same with anything....when a character sells as great as batman does you have all the room you need to tell great stories  but with characters that don't sell as well or just sell below average and are in the crapper.....there's less room to really tell much of a story  when the rug could be pulled out from under you at any time due to poor sales

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> that's the same with anything....when a character sells as great as batman does you have all the room you need to tell great stories  but with characters that don't sell as well or just sell below average and are in the crapper.....there's less room to really tell much of a story  when the rug could be pulled out from under you at any time due to poor sales


I know that, but they only have themselves to blame.

----------


## LimeBright

> They are not punishing her, they just have no idea what to do with her.


It's really not even that hard though, like, lol.

Just bring her back to her roots when she was the fun, free spirited, snarky, with attitude, smart, flirty, sex pot with a good gash of depth and an unashamed thief (who does it for the thrill), but one who's sympathetic to the downtrodden. Legit, every other media does her better. And they're not the company that created her. Gotham, Arkham series, TDKR, Telltale, etc. Though Telltale is dragging in the BatCat too deep and fading her villain-y aspect so she can work with Bruce more when the impression is that Batman secretly enjoys the chase. Eh.

They're just trying to make her this gritty, full of baggage, king pin or mass murderer. And it's laughable.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Telltale writer and Laura Bailey discuss how they view and created the character

Sums it up perfectly and why they get her so right while many DC writers get her so wrong.

https://video.buffer.com/v/581d06328...ampaign=buffer

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> It's really not even that hard though, like, lol.
> 
> Just bring her back to her roots when she was the fun, free spirited, snarky, with attitude, smart, flirty, sex pot with a good gash of depth and an unashamed thief (who does it for the thrill), but one who's sympathetic to the downtrodden. Legit, every other media does her better. And they're not the company that created her. Gotham, Arkham series, TDKR, Telltale, etc. Though Telltale is dragging in the BatCat too deep and fading her villain-y aspect so she can work with Bruce more when the impression is that Batman secretly enjoys the chase. Eh.
> 
> They're just trying to make her this gritty, full of baggage, king pin or mass murderer. And it's laughable.


She doesn't even have to be STRICTLY a thief. She could be a con-artist, blackmailer, or double-agent working for the Court/Parlaiment of Owls while secretly feeding Batman info. 

Seriously, I just came up with at least three good ideas that would fit her personality and archetype. Come on, DC.

----------


## Agent Z

> It's really not even that hard though, like, lol.
> 
> Just bring her back to her roots when she was the fun, free spirited, snarky, with attitude, smart, flirty, sex pot with a good gash of depth and an unashamed thief (who does it for the thrill), but one who's sympathetic to the downtrodden. Legit, every other media does her better. And they're not the company that created her. Gotham, Arkham series, TDKR, Telltale, etc. Though Telltale is dragging in the BatCat too deep and fading her villain-y aspect so she can work with Bruce more when the impression is that Batman secretly enjoys the chase. Eh.
> 
> They're just trying to make her this gritty, full of baggage, king pin or mass murderer. And it's laughable.


it should also be pointed out that these are media where the stories have a planned ending whereas with Selina you have a character trapped in a medium that keeps going on and on. Hence, why writers struggle to come up with good ideas.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Telltale writer and Laura Bailey discuss how they view and created the character
> 
> Sums it up perfectly and why they get her so right while many DC writers get her so wrong.
> 
> https://video.buffer.com/v/581d06328...ampaign=buffer


Wow, that was great. I wish the interview were longer.

----------


## Frontier

> it should also be pointed out that these are media where the stories have a planned ending whereas with Selina you have a character trapped in a medium that keeps going on and on. Hence, why writers struggle to come up with good ideas.


Well, even in an ongoing medium that doesn't mean you can't have a character written consistently or consistently well and in-character.

If not, then I think that just speaks to the writers not having as good a handle or understanding of the character as the people adapting them into other media apparently do  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Well, even in an ongoing medium that doesn't mean you can't have a character written consistently or consistently well and in-character.
> 
> If not, then I think that just speaks to the writers not having as good a handle or understanding of the character as the people adapting them into other media apparently do .


Let's not forget the editors who control everything behind the scenes.

----------


## JackDaw

> It's really not even that hard though, like, lol.
> 
> Just bring her back to her roots when she was the fun, free spirited, snarky, with attitude, smart, flirty, sex pot with a good gash of depth and an unashamed thief (who does it for the thrill), but one who's sympathetic to the downtrodden. Legit, every other media does her better. And they're not the company that created her. Gotham, Arkham series, TDKR, Telltale, etc. Though Telltale is dragging in the BatCat too deep and fading her villain-y aspect so she can work with Bruce more when the impression is that Batman secretly enjoys the chase. Eh.
> 
> They're just trying to make her this gritty, full of baggage, king pin or mass murderer. And it's laughable.


The Ed Brubaker run on Catwoman was on sale on Comixlogy a while back...and I bought it for two main reasons...like Ed B's writing, and knew run featured a fair chunk of Darwyn Cooke artwork.

Finally got round to reading some of it last night. It's wonderfully good, best DC mainstream stuff I've read for a long time...and I'd say Selina's characterisation is bang in line with what you're suggesting is suitable for her.

I doubt if she's ever been "done better" in any non comics media....thought I can readily believe your point that more recent portrayals in comics have been poorer than in other formats.

----------


## MrHashasheen

Random thoughts on Catwoman in films, more specifically Halle Berry's Catwoman.

Halle's a weird thing for me. As a 90s Kid, my first superhero films weren't the Batman quartet but rather an ad-hoc trilogy of Phantom, Rocketeer and the Shadow, which weren't actually tied to one another but were sort of set around the same time period IRl and in-film and had some really memorable visuals (Shadow in particular was sort of Doctor Strange today).

If I recall correctly there hadn't been a public cinema in Jordan for a while growing up (or at least not one in Amman proper), so my superhero viewings were dependent on them popping up on TV and me being lucky to catch them. As a result of that, my first "Catwoman" experience was Halle Berry's 2004 film on free tv, after which I sort of went back and watched a lot of live action materials like the Batman and Superman ones. Halle's film was of course very terrible and deserved the Razzies it got, especially since it didn't have anything to do with the actual Catwoman Selina Kyle (it was some character just for the films with her own backstory for some reason), but it did stick with me for a long time that even to this day I'm vaguely in support Selina Kyle being black.

Dunno, sort of like an out-of-body experience, or a Quantum Leap thing where I was in a universe where that movie was actually great and influential. Does anyone else here have that same sort of odd mentality?

----------


## Caivu

Here's a bit of a preview of a Wonder Woman/Catwoman story in the upcoming New Talent Showcase (hard to see, I know):

NewTalentShowcase_TOC_5821000e988e72.64287597.jpg

Selina, you're attacking _Wonder Woman_. What did you think was going to happen?

----------


## Frontier

Heh, I had a good laugh at the heels comment  :Wink: .

And this definitely feels more like Catwoman then her appearances in Batman so far...

----------


## Agent Z

> Random thoughts on Catwoman in films, more specifically Halle Berry's Catwoman.
> 
> Halle's a weird thing for me. As a 90s Kid, my first superhero films weren't the Batman quartet but rather an ad-hoc trilogy of Phantom, Rocketeer and the Shadow, which weren't actually tied to one another but were sort of set around the same time period IRl and in-film and had some really memorable visuals (Shadow in particular was sort of Doctor Strange today).
> 
> If I recall correctly there hadn't been a public cinema in Jordan for a while growing up (or at least not one in Amman proper), so my superhero viewings were dependent on them popping up on TV and me being lucky to catch them. As a result of that, my first "Catwoman" experience was Halle Berry's 2004 film on free tv, after which I sort of went back and watched a lot of live action materials like the Batman and Superman ones. Halle's film was of course very terrible and deserved the Razzies it got, especially since it didn't have anything to do with the actual Catwoman Selina Kyle (it was some character just for the films with her own backstory for some reason), but it did stick with me for a long time that even to this day I'm vaguely in support Selina Kyle being black.
> 
> Dunno, sort of like an out-of-body experience, or a Quantum Leap thing where I was in a universe where that movie was actually great and influential. Does anyone else here have that same sort of odd mentality?


I didn't dislike the Catwoman movie that much when I saw it at first but its flaws became clearer over time. I don't mind Selina being black though.

----------


## Agent Z

http://batman-news.com/2016/11/18/ca...ffleck-batman/

----------


## Atlanta96

> http://batman-news.com/2016/11/18/ca...ffleck-batman/


Well, at least they haven't said "No Robin or Nightwing". Yet  :Frown: 

And at least we got a mostly good live action Catwoman just 4 years ago, so another few years of wait isn't so bad IMO.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Well, at least they haven't said "No Robin or Nightwing". Yet 
> 
> And at least we got a mostly good live action Catwoman just 4 years ago, so another few years of wait isn't so bad IMO.


Maybe Selina will show up in this Harley Quinn movie? Seems like the plan is to introduce a lot of characters in it. *Fingers crossed*

----------


## Frontier

How has Sienna Miller seen the Batman script? It seems like everybody's seen it at this point  :Confused: .

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> How has Sienna Miller seen the Batman script? It seems like everybody's seen it at this point .


Especially with Ben Affleck saying there is no Batman film yet. “We’re still trying to figure it out,” he said, “you know, get the script and budget and all that stuff.”
It's like everyone has seen a Batman script but Ben Affleck, the producer himself.

----------


## Frontier

Well, I know we're in a drought for good Catwoman news at the moment, but I will say that her showing _Batman: The Return of the Caped Crusaders_ animated movie is pretty awesome  :Big Grin: . 

Obviously the great Julie Newmar shows her age in that role but still manages to deliver her lines almost as well as she did on the show, and they captured the character's strengths quite well in the movie. She also has probably almost as much screentime and importance to the plot as the Dynamic Duo  :Cool: .

And there's also a nice nod to the Lee Meriweather and Eartha Kitt Catwoman's at some point in the movie  :Wink: .

----------


## Stormcrow

First look at the Diamond Select DC Gallery Batman New Adventures Catwoman PVC Diorama

I was never a big fan of this design but damn does this look good!

----------


## Frontier

I've always been a fan of her classic B:TAS look, but the The New Batman Adventures design was also a solid look in my opinion  :Smile: . 

Of course, Selina looks amazing in any outfit, and black works very well for her  :Wink: .

----------


## Caivu

From the New Talent Showcase:

WTFSelina.jpg

I appreciate the confidence, but seriously Selina, WTF did you think was going to happen?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Also, Catwoman's nickname for Wonder Woman is "Spanglepants", which is amazing. I don't _think_ that's a reference to anything, but I could be wrong.

----------


## Frontier

I was just happy to read a Catwoman who felt like Catwoman and didn't talk about killing 237 terrorists  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Caivu

> I was just happy to read a Catwoman who felt like Catwoman and didn't talk about killing 237 terrorists .


I'm choosing to believe that Selina's high body count just went to her head enough to make her think she could take _Wonder Woman_ of all people in a fight.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm choosing to believe that Selina's high body count just went to her head enough to make her think she could take _Wonder Woman_ of all people in a fight.


And I choose to believe that the high body count did not exist in the context of this story  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Caivu

January's Batman issues have been changed to a two-part Catwoman story.

Batman #15 was originally supposed to be a single-issue Swamp Thing story, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

----------


## Frontier

Huh, I wonder why they removed the Swamp Thing story and extended the Catwoman one? So they can use Stephanie Hans more  :Wink: ?

----------


## Huntsman1117

Catwoman is definitely more in character in _New Talent Showcase_ #1 than she has been in anything else in a long time, and liked it. Her attack on Wonder Woman was futile but understandable. She thought Wonder Woman was sent to kill her, so she attempted to put up a fight. Not the wisest strategy for her, but every other strategy would likely fail too. Might as well go down swinging. Her brash, sassy, and selfish attitude was reminiscent of _Gotham_ and while it's a little immature, it is classic Catwoman. ...but she's still ugly and manly looking in this costume.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

I hate her current look.

She should do herself a favor and MURDER those goggles

----------


## Godlike13

> Huh, I wonder why they removed the Swamp Thing story and extended the Catwoman one? So they can use Stephanie Hans more ?


I think they realize they can't drop a bombshell like they have and just leave it lie.

----------


## MosSuperman

Gotham City Sirens

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...lains-project-

----------


## Atlanta96

> Gotham City Sirens
> 
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...lains-project-


Olivia Wilde for Catwoman!

----------


## Michael24

> Olivia Wilde for Catwoman!


Would totally pass on that. Don't care for her at all.

----------


## Frontier

> Gotham City Sirens
> 
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...lains-project-


Looking forward to (hopefully) seeing Selina in this and who they'll cast as her  :Smile: .

----------


## 16 Bit

Was hoping for an older, veteran Selina to match Affleck's Batman and that probably won't happen if she's friends with Harley but I am still excited.

----------


## millernumber1

> Was hoping for an older, veteran Selina to match Affleck's Batman and that probably won't happen if she's friends with Harley but I am still excited.


Think they could get Pfeiffer to come back?  :Wink:

----------


## Confuzzled

> Was hoping for an older, veteran Selina to match Affleck's Batman and that probably won't happen if she's friends with Harley but I am still excited.


They should try for someone in her 40's like Charlize Theron or if she's interested, Angelina Jolie herself. _Gotham_ has already proposed the idea to general audiences that Ivy is younger than Selina and Bruce. So even if Harley and Ivy are around the same age, Selina could be the "eldest, most experienced sister" of the trio.

----------


## Aahz

> Was hoping for an older, veteran Selina to match Affleck's Batman and that probably won't happen if she's friends with Harley but I am still excited.


With old Batman thing in the DCEU, Harley seems way to young especially if you conciser that (at least according to an interview Zack Snyder gave) Robins death happened 10 years ago and that Harley is supposed to be doctor in psychiatry.

The old Batman premise anyway kind of screews up a lot of Bruce support cast. Jeremy Irons seems actually a little bit to young to be Alfred in this scenario, and Dick and Barbara would logically have to be roughly the same age as Superman.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Was hoping for an older, veteran Selina to match Affleck's Batman and that probably won't happen if she's friends with Harley but I am still excited.


That'd be the worst idea ever. 

In a movie where Catwoman has to compete with DC's "it-girl" Harley Quinn being played by Margot Robbie, making the mistake of casting an older actress like they did with Lois Lane would be the quickest way to cement Catwoman's postion as being the less attention-worthy character. 

People need to realize that this movie could make or break Selina as a popular character. Even if that's  being hyperbolic, which I don't think it is, the creators of this movie need to approach her casting with such an attitude.

Selina needs to be well-written AND sexy.

----------


## Hi-Fi

They'll want to cast someone who's old enough to sell a relationship with BatAffleck. Someone like Charlize Theron.

----------


## Agent Z

> That'd be the worst idea ever. 
> 
> In a movie where Catwoman has to compete with DC's "it-girl" Harley Quinn being played by Margot Robbie, making the mistake of casting an older actress like they did with Lois Lane would be the quickest way to cement Catwoman's postion as being the less attention-worthy character. 
> 
> People need to realize that this movie could make or break Selina as a popular character. Even if that's  being hyperbolic, which I don't think it is, the creators of this movie need to approach her casting with such an attitude.
> 
> Selina needs to be well-written AND sexy.


Viola Davis was one of the most beloved members of the SS cast despite being older. Even if Selina doesn't get as much love as Harley, if the actress is good and she's well-written, people will love her. Lois' age had nothing to do with her issues.

----------


## Frontier

> With old Batman thing in the DCEU, Harley seems way to young especially if you conciser that (at least according to an interview Zack Snyder gave) Robins death happened 10 years ago and that Harley is supposed to be doctor in psychiatry.
> 
> The old Batman premise anyway kind of screews up a lot of Bruce support cast. Jeremy Irons seems actually a little bit to young to be Alfred in this scenario, and Dick and Barbara would logically have to be roughly the same age as Superman.


Yeah, the DCEU ages don't necessarily match the actual character ages. 

I think they'll cast someone who's old enough to fit as a love interest for Batfleck, but will probably be a bit younger. So  mid-to-late 30's?

----------


## Punisher007

Eva Green as Catwoman.  Or, should they want to go the "Earth Kitt" route, either Rosario Dawson or Ruth Negga.

----------


## millernumber1

> Eva Green as Catwoman.  Or, should they want to go the "Earth Kitt" route, either Rosario Dawson or Ruth Negga.


UUUNNNNNNFFFFFFFHHHHHH. That would be beyond amazing, even with the accent.  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> With old Batman thing in the DCEU, Harley seems way to young especially if you conciser that (at least according to an interview Zack Snyder gave) Robins death happened 10 years ago and that Harley is supposed to be doctor in psychiatry.
> 
> The old Batman premise anyway kind of screews up a lot of Bruce support cast. Jeremy Irons seems actually a little bit to young to be Alfred in this scenario, and Dick and Barbara would logically have to be roughly the same age as Superman.


Yeah, the DCEU was planned by morons. There's going to be a lot of suspension of disbelief required in order to get certain characters right.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Viola Davis was one of the most beloved members of the SS cast despite being older. Even if Selina doesn't get as much love as Harley, if the actress is good and she's well-written, people will love her. Lois' age had nothing to do with her issues.


Well, Amanda Waller's popularity isn't exactly connected to sex appeal so...  :Smile:

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> They'll want to cast someone who's old enough to sell a relationship with BatAffleck. Someone like Charlize Theron.


Ignoring the fact that Catwoman actually has a thing for older men in the comics, and the fact that Hollywood prefers to cast younger women with older men . . . .

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Viola Davis was one of the most beloved members of the SS cast despite being older. Even if Selina doesn't get as much love as Harley, if the actress is good and she's well-written, people will love her. Lois' age had nothing to do with her issues.


You're comparing oranges to apples. Atlanta96 said it best:




> Well, Amanda Waller's popularity isn't exactly connected to sex appeal so...


Nor does Amanda Waller have to compete with Harley Quinn/Margot Robbie.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Are we really saying Eva Green is not sexy enough to compete with Robbie?

I see a lot of lobbying for Eva Mendes on Twitter just because she's Latina. She could certainly look the part, but I don't know if she can act. Aside from Hitch I haven't really seen her in any other movie so I have questions about that

Eva Green, on the other hand, Aside from looking the part, can be super compelling and really own that role.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Are we really saying Eva Green is not sexy enough to compete with Robbie?


Where is the post that stated this?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Implied from the conversation that an older Selina would be overshadowed by hot young Harley. Both Eva's (not spring chickens) would hold their own against Robbie in the hotness dept IMO

----------


## Vanguard-01

Poor Eva Green! Does she even know how many directions in which the DC fanbase is pulling her?

Batman fans want her to be Catwoman (some have argued for Poison Ivy as well.) A lot of Wonder Woman fans (myself included) want her to play Circe. 

Let's just hope one of us, at least, gets what we want!  :Smile:

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Implied from the conversation that an older Selina would be overshadowed by hot young Harley. Both Eva's (not spring chickens) would hold their own against Robbie in the hotness dept IMO


Eva Green was mentioned once by someone not involved in the conversation at all, so no, it's not implied. 

I'd be fine with Eva Green, but how much physicality would this role demand of her?

----------


## darkseidpwns

I'm gonna be brutally honest here. I think Megan Fox and actresses in her ilk have a higher chance of bagging these roles than Green and Chastain. Short of Ben Afflleck convincing them or a fantastic script or the promise of a potential solo movie I cant see them jumping on board for this type of film, especially knowing what Ayer is likely to do.

----------


## Frontier

> Eva Green was mentioned once by someone not involved in the conversation at all, so no, it's not implied. 
> 
> I'd be fine with Eva Green, but how much physicality would this role demand of her?


Running and jumping around in a skintight catsuit  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## millernumber1

> Are we really saying Eva Green is not sexy enough to compete with Robbie?


If someone is (and I don't see it), I would probably die of laughter.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm gonna be brutally honest here. I think Megan Fox and actresses in her ilk have a higher chance of bagging these roles than Green and Chastain. Short of Ben Afflleck convincing them or a fantastic script or the promise of a potential solo movie I cant see them jumping on board for this type of film, especially knowing what Ayer is likely to do.


I don't know about Chastain but Eva Green is not only willing to appear in low brow films, but she's more than willing to go the extra mile for movie roles. The otherwise terrible 300: Rise of an Empire being the best example.

Honestly I don't care if she's Selina or Ivy I just want her in a superhero movie. She's been one of my favorite actresses ever since Casino Royale. Hopefully she can pull a Rosamund Pike and get the critical acclaim she deserves even though she's been acting for a while.

And though they've made many, many bloody stupid decisions so far I still don't think they're stupid enough to cast Megan Fox as Ivy. Even horny teenage boys are sick of her at this point.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> I hate her current look.
> 
> She should do herself a favor and MURDER those goggles


Couldn't agree more, Chips. Ed Brubaker's and Darwyn Cook's Catwoman costume was revolutionary for the character, but also revolting in its attractiveness.
Nevertheless I'm currently rereading Brubaker's run on Catwoman, and his writing is superb. I'm loving it. Except the bug-eye goggles and heavy work boots. I hate those.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I don't think Eva Green looks anything like Selina Kyle, and I doubt she can capture her brash, sarcastic, & fiery attitude and make it all fun.
My picks have always been Angelina and Charlize.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, the DCEU was planned by morons.


Unfortunately I have to agree.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I don't think Eva Green looks anything like Selina Kyle, and I doubt she can capture her brash, sarcastic, & fiery attitude and make it all fun.
> My picks have always been Angelina and Charlize.


Both those women are ancient. I'll pass. 

Honestly, I think the bigger issue here is that Ayer can't write/direct women.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Both those women are ancient. I'll pass. 
> 
> Honestly, I think the bigger issue here is that Ayer can't write/direct women.


He's not writing the screenplay and he did just fine directing the actors playing the Harley Quinn and Amanda Waller characters.

----------


## Agent Z

> *Both those women are ancient*. I'll pass. 
> 
> Honestly, I think the bigger issue here is that Ayer can't write/direct women.


They can also act worth a damn and are box office draws.

----------


## Punisher007

If they want to go for a more "Earth Kitt-esque" look, then Rosario Dawson or Ruth Negga would be good choices I think.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Both those women are ancient. I'll pass. 
> 
> Honestly, I think the bigger issue here is that Ayer can't write/direct women.


Well there's an ageist comment if I've ever heard one. Charlize and Angelina are both 41. Ben Affleck and Jared Leto are both 44. 'Nuff said. These women are not too old to play a more mature Catwoman, which is something "Gotham City Sirens" would benefit from.

----------


## Punisher007

Well poor Amy Adams got flack for being "too old" to play Lois Lane, who's not even a costumed character at all.  She was like 37/38 at the time, and looks younger than that.  Also Lois is supposed to be a seasoned veteran reporter.

So yeah, there's a double-standard there.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I just learned that it was Ed Brubaker's idea for Catwoman to be pregnant without anyone knowing who the father was, back in '05. The reason Ed quit "Catwoman" was DC rejected Ed's pitch that Selina would take over the East End, but then would die and Batman and Slam Bradley would discover that she was pregnant - but neither knew which one of them was the father; and Holly Robinson would take over as Catwoman.  Of course DC eventually used this idea after Ed had quit, but they kept her alive and named Sam Bradley, Jr as the father. Ed laughed at that in an interview saying he would never have a character sleep with both a man and his son.  I can say I wish the pregnancy never happened, and I'm glad Ed didn't get to kill off Selina.

----------


## Punisher007

Honestly I would have just made Bruce the father myself.  It could have been kind of interesting, given their different worldviews and rather "complicated" dynamic most of the time.

----------


## Huntsman1117

That would not have been a horrible idea, having Bruce and Selina have a baby. To me, at least. But the birth of course would have to take place in "Batman" or "Detective Comics". I could live with that. And I think the world could handle Batman & Catwoman have children. It would raise the stakes and make the comics more emotionally volatile.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I like that Guillem March at least thought about giving Catwoman a new look - and getting rid of the bug-eye goggles - for her New 52 reboot in 2011. Here are his sketches.  I like that he calls her current cowl "ugly" (haha), and that he opts for long, sleek gloves & boots

Catwoman sketches 2 .jpg

Catwoman sketches.jpg

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> I like that Guillem March at least thought about giving Catwoman a new look - and getting rid of the bug-eye goggles - for her New 52 reboot in 2011. Here are his sketches.  I like that he calls her current cowl "ugly" (haha), and that he opts for long, sleek gloves & boots
> 
> Catwoman sketches 2 .jpg
> 
> Catwoman sketches.jpg


WTF is that fishnet+skirt combination supposed to be? Selina is a goth now?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I like that Guillem March at least thought about giving Catwoman a new look - and getting rid of the bug-eye goggles - for her New 52 reboot in 2011. Here are his sketches.  I like that he calls her current cowl "ugly" (haha), and that he opts for long, sleek gloves & boots
> 
> Catwoman sketches 2 .jpg
> 
> Catwoman sketches.jpg



I missed the comments! Lol, he's right. The worst part of her look is the goggle and cowl.

----------


## BatGlamorous

I've wanted her costume to just be a sleek black bodysuit with boots and gloves for a while now. It's not a jarring change from her current one, while also calling back to BR and the Balent days.

Also, Eva Green would be totally awesome for Selina in GSS imo.  :Big Grin:  Alicia Vikander would also be a great choice, but I have a feeling that they wouldn't want to tie her to two iconic female roles (CW and Lara Croft) at the same time.

----------


## Agent Z

> That would not have been a horrible idea, having Bruce and Selina have a baby. To me, at least. But the birth of course would have to take place in "Batman" or "Detective Comics". I could live with that. And I think the world could handle Batman & Catwoman have children. It would raise the stakes and make the comics more emotionally volatile.


Why would it be a bad idea? We already have Damian.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Well there's an ageist comment if I've ever heard one. Charlize and Angelina are both 41. Ben Affleck and Jared Leto are both 44. 'Nuff said. These women are not too old to play a more mature Catwoman, which is something "Gotham City Sirens" would benefit from.


Yes, but actors have longer shelf-lives than actresses, especially when they look like they're in their 20's(Leto). I want a Catwoman that goes on to have her own spin-offs, and that is able to compete with Margot Robbie visually. If we went with your idea, we'd never see Catwoman again after GCS. Partly because Charlize Theron is busy, and partly because she aged out of the character. 

Anyone above the age of 35 is too old. I would accept Eva Green though. 

How can you be a Catwoman fan and be ok with Catwoman being upstaged by Harley Quinn YET AGAIN? Margot Robbie is sexy as hell. TOO sexy to play Harley even, and I'll be damned if the world's quintessential femme fatale comes up short to DC's current fad.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yes, but actors have longer shelf-lives than actresses, especially when they look like they're in their 20's(Leto). I want a Catwoman that goes on to have her own spin-offs, and that is able to compete with Margot Robbie visually. If we went with your idea, we'd never see Catwoman again after GCS. Partly because Charlize Theron is busy, and partly because she aged out of the character. 
> 
> Anyone above the age of 35 is too old. I would accept Eva Green though. 
> 
> How can you be a Catwoman fan and be ok with Catwoman being upstaged by Harley Quinn YET AGAIN?


If Selina gets upstaged by Harley, it will have nothing to do with age.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Yes, but actors have longer shelf-lives than actresses, especially when they look like they're in their 20's(Leto). I want a Catwoman that goes on to have her own spin-offs, and that is able to compete with Margot Robbie visually. If we went with your idea, we'd never see Catwoman again after GCS. Partly because Charlize Theron is busy, and partly because she aged out of the character. 
> 
> Anyone above the age of 35 is too old. I would accept Eva Green though. 
> 
> How can you be a Catwoman fan and be ok with Catwoman being upstaged by Harley Quinn YET AGAIN? Margot Robbie is sexy as hell. TOO sexy to play Harley even, and I'll be damned if the world's quintessential femme fatale comes up short to DC's current fad.


How about we get a strongly written and acted Catwoman and not one who's only defined by her sexuality? I would love a more experienced Catwoman showing these newbies who's the real Queen of Gotham.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Still trying to figure out when Selina 
*spoilers:*
 killed 237 people in Batman Rebirth. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Caivu

> Still trying to figure out when Selina 
> *spoilers:*
>  killed 237 people in Batman Rebirth. 
> *end of spoilers*


If it happened, it would've been between the end of her New 52 series and the start of the new Batman series.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> If it happened, it would've been between the end of her New 52 series and the start of the new Batman series.


That's the problem. There is no set-up for it in Catwoman New52 #52.  It just pops up out of nowhere at the end Batman Rebirth #9 and as of the end of Batman Rebirth #12 still no explanation.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> How about we get a strongly written and acted Catwoman and not one who's only defined by her sexuality? I would love a more experienced Catwoman showing these newbies who's the real Queen of Gotham.


Because that's a given, obviously. Let's not create a false dichotomy. She can be young an do that as well, but if DC/WB never get over their obsession with Harley, it's never gonna happen. 

Guys, this is Catwoman's last chance. If she can't make something out of this opportunity, DC is never going to care enough to give Catwoman a future where she's old.




> If Selina gets upstaged by Harley, it will have nothing to do with age.


That's just wishful thinking. Go look at a couple pictures of Margot Robbie, and then tell me that. If they can't even give her an interesting costume, even cosplayers won't care about her.

----------


## Frontier

> That's the problem. There is no set-up for it in Catwoman New52 #52.  It just pops up out of nowhere at the end Batman Rebirth #9 and as of the end of Batman Rebirth #12 still no explanation.


Well, there's some kind of "lie" associated with what she did, per Batman, but it's ambiguous exactly what it is. 

Was the justification for her killing a lie? Or was it the murders themselves?

----------


## LimeBright

People really undermine what sells. TsukiSentinel is being realistic here in my opinion. We can call it what we want, but it's not a lie.

Since a Gotham City Sirens film has been confirmed, they'd have to get the other two to look close to Margot Robbie's age. Harley is supposed to be in her 30s really, but the actress is still rather young. I would say older up to 35 for Selina. It's going to be awkward otherwise. If Catwoman's a hit herself, you'd want her age to be able to cover a few more movies. I don't agree with Batman's age up either.

----------


## Mr. Mastermind

> Guys, this is Catwoman's last chance. If she can't make something out of this opportunity, DC is never going to care enough to give Catwoman a future where she's old.


How is this Catwoman's "last chance"? The last film she was in got great critical reviews (it's RT score was well over double of Harley's film), people highlighted as one of the best parts in it and it made more money than any DC film ever has. The New 52 comic may have had some terrible runs but most people aren't even slightly aware of what happens in comics anyway. Catwoman's "reputation" is fine with the public. I'm sure the people in WB like her just fine too.

As for the prospects of a Gotham City Sirens film, just no. I don't like Harley at all and I've never liked the idea of them as a group anyway. I'd rather they just wait for a Batman sequel to introduce her.

Also with David Ayer making it I really doubt they'll cast who isn't hot as hell. That should be the least of our worries.

----------


## godisawesome

You could probably find a great mature actress for Catwoman, someone to play a peer to Affleck's Wayne. There is, however, a very real disparity in how many actresses of high caliber are available at that level for a long term commitment compared to quality actors available for older heroes. Hollywood tends to ruthlessly drop pretty actresses who don't immediately find the kind of critically appreciated work that makes for long careers. Guys can count on being considered a marketable handsome face for a long time. Women still have problems being perceived as "too old"; as a result, those actresses who get the long careers tend to avoid franchises and seek out films on a case by case basis.

Personally, I'd prefer to see an older Catwoman. It would just play well to have a veteran Selina who's established enough in Gotham that neither Batman nor Joker can intimidate her, and who can be the "establishment" that Harley and Poison Ivy contrast against.

----------


## Frontier

> Personally, I'd prefer to see an older Catwoman. It would just play well to have a veteran Selina who's established enough in Gotham that neither Batman nor Joker can intimidate her, and who can be the "establishment" that Harley and Poison Ivy contrast against.


I think that's how they'll play DCEU Catwoman irregardless of how old the actress they cast ends up being. 

Same with Ivy probably.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

So far choices mentioned: Angelina, no. She's a bag of bones now. Charlize, maybe, but I've never really pictured her as Selina.

Eva Green: right age (not too old, not too young), great compelling actress, can give Margot a run for her money in the sexy dept. Can she do the action shots? Well who thought Anne Hathaway could? And she turned out fine. One drawback is she might be too classy for this film.

One thing, I hope they don't make her butch looking, like those Kevin Wada covers (yuk!) for Valentine

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Another thing!

Don't make Catwoman crazy, or a basket-case. I'd also like it if she were really intelligent, funny, and manipulative. 




> People really undermine what sells. TsukiSentinel is being realistic here in my opinion. We can call it what we want, but it's not a lie.
> 
> Since a Gotham City Sirens film has been confirmed, they'd have to get the other two to look close to Margot Robbie's age. Harley is supposed to be in her 30s really, but the actress is still rather young. I would say older up to 35 for Selina. It's going to be awkward otherwise. If Catwoman's a hit herself, you'd want her age to be able to cover a few more movies. I don't agree with Batman's age up either.


I don't agree with Batman's age up either, especially since they've done NOTHING with it. As far as I can tell, it's just there as a reference to Dark Knight Returns.

----------


## Agent Z

> How is this Catwoman's "last chance"? The last film she was in got great critical reviews (it's RT score was well over double of Harley's film), people highlighted as one of the best parts in it and it made more money than any DC film ever has. The New 52 comic may have had some terrible runs but most people aren't even slightly aware of what happens in comics anyway. Catwoman's "reputation" is fine with the public. I'm sure the people in WB like her just fine too.
> 
> As for the prospects of a Gotham City Sirens film, just no. I don't like Harley at all and I've never liked the idea of them as a group anyway. I'd rather they just wait for a Batman sequel to introduce her.
> 
> Also with David Ayer making it I really doubt they'll cast who isn't hot as hell. That should be the least of our worries.


Really, if any character is in danger here, it's Poison Ivy whose last appearance on the big screen was Batman & Robin. Selina by contrast is an easier sell. Add in the rumors of Megan Fox possibly playing Ivy and frankly I think it looks more dire for her.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> You could probably find a great mature actress for Catwoman, someone to play a peer to Affleck's Wayne. There is, however, a very real disparity in how many actresses of high caliber are available at that level for a long term commitment compared to quality actors available for older heroes. Hollywood tends to ruthlessly drop pretty actresses who don't immediately find the kind of critically appreciated work that makes for long careers. Guys can count on being considered a marketable handsome face for a long time. Women still have problems being perceived as "too old"; as a result, those actresses who get the long careers tend to avoid franchises and seek out films on a case by case basis..


Exactly, this type of movie appeals to the hungry, up and coming talent who want to get quick recognition and the studio would prefer that type anyway. I do hope that we get a seasoned actress as Catwoman because I want her to be in a Batman film too but these guys are so obsessed with Harley you never know.

----------


## godisawesome

> Another thing!
> 
> Don't make Catwoman crazy, or a basket-case. I'd also like it if she were really intelligent, funny, and manipulative. 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with Batman's age up either, especially since they've done NOTHING with it. As far as I can tell, it's just there as a reference to Dark Knight Returns.


The closest they've come to actually using it is in his weariness in BvS. I liked the movie; in fact, I still think most of the complaints are just moaning and groaning. BUT, I will say they should have really played with his age. Instead of making Clark's desire to investigate Batman clash with Perry for some reason and limiting it to Clark's opinion of Batman's current M.O., they should have had Clark go full **********fiend and establish everything they implied as explicit: that this Batman used to be much kinder and less lethal, but has been doing this for twenty up years and has lost at least one son (I'd make it two and have Dick be estranged, maybe have Two Face and Babs referenced as well), and then draw direct parallels between Superman fearing his own future following a similar course. Make that "no one stays good in this world" line a tragic realization by Clark that Lex may have successfully forced him on a similar path. All of that's in the actual film, but only on the perimeter. It should have been the focus.

So, having said that, here's how I think Catwoman should be played. She's established in Gotham as a major underworld figure, but as a sane and stable pillar among fences and thieves, and as the unofficial ruler of the East End of Gotham, tacitly acknowledged by Batman. She's still a criminal, but currently as more of a part-timer, and if Bruce's theme in BvS was his weariness darkening him, then the stagnation of Gotham is boring her. She doesn't need to steal to make money anymore; she does it entirely for pride and the rush, which includes the times Batman tries to stop her. She does enforce a kind of peace over the East End; it's got astonishingly low drug violence because she doesn't want it there, and violent criminals have to deal with both the Bat and the Cat. Having said that, the place is basically Gotham's noir setting on steroids; those criminals who do the commit crimes in the East End that she doesn't care for usually are incredibly subtle and sneaky; no one's going around cutting up prostitutes, but plenty of Jesus lovers have masterminded murderes that interest both Slam Bradley and Bruce Wayne.

So, this bored but principled Selina is stuck in a rut. No one doubts she's the best thief. She periodically takes jobs like industrial espionage for the challenge, even from Batman, like she did in that one Fisch penned Catwoman issue. I'd have her and Bruce in a miserable impasse as far as they're relationship goes; they both still have the hots for each other, they've dated, and they know each other's identity, but that was unintentional, and they refuse to acknowledge it because a) Bruce would then have to either try and capture her or trust her as an ally, and b) Selina knows that, and feels hemmed in by the idea.

Then Poison Ivy ends up escaping Arkham and teaming up with Harley Quinn. Ivy's the fanatical idealist, Harley's the broken bird she's trying to help. Because they set up in the East End, Batman kind of puts the pressure on Selina to "clean up your house," and the cynical Catwoman comes after them. However, Ivy manages to reveal that another villain, Roulette/Dagget/Black Mask/Red Claw/ etc. is secretly exploiting young children in the East End under Catwoman's nose with the aid of corrupt Police Captain Lyle "Lock-Up" Bolton/some other established authority figure Batman isn't targeting right now, so an angry Catwoman finally finds a new cause, breaks her truce with Batman, and joins the Sirens to destroy these villains by robbing them blind and letting Ivy kill a few of them. She's the oldest Siren, and it's kind of about her getting back into high gear and making her life more what she wants, including confronting Bruce about their secrets and making him acknowledge her as an equal force that he can't control... But could maybe take her to dinner once in a while.

----------


## Londo Bellian

Fund This.

FunditFunditFunditFunditFunditFunditFunditFunditFu  nditFunditFunditFUNDITFUNDITFUNDITFUNDITFUNDITFUND  ITFUNDIT!

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## KCJ506

Considering that Catwoman is a staple in Batman's mythos and If we're getting a more experienced and mature Batman, that needs to extend to her too. Otherwise any chance at real history between the two gets thrown out the window...unless they plan on making this Bruce interested in women that are nearly young enough to be his daughter.

Early to mid 30s should be the cut-off. I honestly don't wanna hear about a twenty something year old being in the running.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Really, if any character is in danger here, it's Poison Ivy whose last appearance on the big screen was Batman & Robin. Selina by contrast is an easier sell. Add in the rumors of Megan Fox possibly playing Ivy and frankly I think it looks more dire for her.


No I don't think so. Ivy is pretty iconic in her own right too and she is still one of the most popular Halloween dress up characters (higher than Catwoman). She's had plenty of other media appearances after Batman & Robin (and even the Uma Thurman look is popular with many people, including celebrities like Kim Kardashian), and like Selina, she currently appears in live-action tv. So if B&R couldn't destroy her, I doubt Gotham City Sirens would.

----------


## Confuzzled

> You could probably find a great mature actress for Catwoman, someone to play a peer to Affleck's Wayne. There is, however, a very real disparity in how many actresses of high caliber are available at that level for a long term commitment compared to quality actors available for older heroes. Hollywood tends to ruthlessly drop pretty actresses who don't immediately find the kind of critically appreciated work that makes for long careers. Guys can count on being considered a marketable handsome face for a long time. Women still have problems being perceived as "too old"; as a result, those actresses who get the long careers tend to avoid franchises and seek out films on a case by case basis.
> 
> Personally, I'd prefer to see an older Catwoman. It would just play well to have a veteran Selina who's established enough in Gotham that neither Batman nor Joker can intimidate her, and who can be the "establishment" that Harley and Poison Ivy contrast against.





> Exactly, this type of movie appeals to the hungry, up and coming talent who want to get quick recognition and the studio would prefer that type anyway. I do hope that we get a seasoned actress as Catwoman because I want her to be in a Batman film too but these guys are so obsessed with Harley you never know.


I could see more mature actresses who are doing great on television right now, like Lena Headey from _Game of Thrones_ and Thandie Newton from _Westworld_ being interested in the role.

I also think the character is iconic and well-respected enough to be appealing to movie stars like Angelina and Charlize. Both have shown they are ready to appear in blockbusters, and Catwoman is a juicy at best, fun at worst role.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Considering that Catwoman is a staple in Batman's mythos and If we're getting a more experienced and mature Batman, that needs to extend to her too. Otherwise any chance at real history between the two gets thrown out the window...unless they plan on making this Bruce interested in women that are nearly young enough to be his daughter.
> 
> Early to mid 30s should be the cut-off. I honestly don't wanna hear about a twenty something year old being in the running.


Speaking as a man, though not anywhere near Bruce's age, I can't imagine myself being interested in anyone above the age of 35. Why would a rich playboy billionaire be interested in anyone older than 35? Of course there are exceptions like Eva Green. 

Let's get real people. My point is that line of reasoning makes no sense. 

All that said, we shouldn't cast Selina to be Bruce's love interest. We should cast her to be her own character, and Selina as a character is meant to be around her late-20's, early 30's. On top of that, Harley is going to be in her late 20's. So if we're going to compare Selina to anyone, age-wise, it should be her.

For all you guys know, WB is planning on going ahead with WonderBat, not Batcat(and I would hate them for that).

----------


## Agent Z

> Speaking as a man, though not anywhere near Bruce's age, I can't imagine myself being interested in anyone above the age of 35. Why would a rich playboy billionaire be interested in anyone older than 35? Of course there are exceptions like Eva Green. 
> Let's get real people. My point is that line of reasoning makes no sense.


Why? Because you say so? It’s your personal preference and you’re entitled to it but that does not mean it the case for everyone.




> All that said, we shouldn't cast Selina to be Bruce's love interest. We should cast her to be her own character


Which would make aging her down to meet some standard of attractiveness would be kind of pointless, don’t you think?

I mean, I think it's rather telling that you haven't been able to name a single actress that fits your requirements while also having the skill to play Selina.




> For all you guys know, WB is planning on going ahead with WonderBat, not Batcat(and I would hate them for that).


Given they’re actually trying to make Diana her own character, I doubt that will happen.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Why? Because you say so? Its your personal preference and youre entitled to it but that does not mean it the case for everyone.


Right, sure. 




> Which would make aging her down to meet some standard of attractiveness would be kind of pointless, dont you think?
> 
> I mean, I think it's rather telling that you haven't been able to name a single actress that fits your requirements while also having the skill to play Selina.


Cause I think they should cast someone more obscure. Also, keep in mind, Catwoman is still a femme fatale, ergo should be quite sexy. In fact, she is THE femme fatale, and the only standard of attractiveness I expect her meet is Margot Robbie's. 





> Given theyre actually trying to make Diana her own character, I doubt that will happen.


And I want Catwoman to be her own character with multiple movies to her name(with a little batcat down the road, but only a little). The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

----------


## Agent Z

> Right, sure. 
> 
> 
> 
> Cause I think they should cast someone more obscure. Also, keep in mind, Catwoman is still a femme fatale, ergo should be quite sexy. In fact, she is THE femme fatale, and the only standard of attractiveness I expect her meet is Margot Robbie's. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I want Catwoman to be her own character with multiple movies to her name(with a little batcat down the road, but only a little). The two things aren't mutually exclusive.


Last I checked plenty of young men were into older women. I'm in my early 20s and I've met guys within my age group who've said they'd rather go out with Angelina Jolie or Charlize Theron than Megan Fox or Jennifer Lawrence. Being an older women does not mean you lose sex appeal despite what Hollywood thinks.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Last I checked plenty of young men were into older women. I'm in my early 20s and I've met guys within my age group who've said they'd rather go out with Angelina Jolie or Charlize Theron than Megan Fox or Jennifer Lawrence. Being an older women does not mean you lose sex appeal despite what Hollywood thinks.


That's great. Can we stick to the subject of Catwoman?

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## Confuzzled

> Why would a rich playboy billionaire be interested in anyone older than 35?


Lolwut is this a serious question? Btw, George Clooney who is one of the biggest real life equivalents to Bruce Wayne that I can think of in the billionaire playboy department, ended up getting hitched to a woman over 35.

----------


## Aahz

Even in the comics Selina is younger than Bruce, in Batman Year One she was only 19 opposed to Bruce being 25. And I think in the New 52 she claimed at some point to be 23 while Bruce is allready 32.

Imo the most important question in this regard is for how long Bruce was actually in retirement in the DCEU. If it was really for 10 year like in "the Dark Knight Returns" any other Batcharcter being in his or her 20s just doesn't make sense.

If it was shorter they could make it logically work by having these characters appearing much later in his careerer than the do in the usual comic timelines.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Even in the comics Selina is younger than Bruce, in Batman Year One she was only 19 opposed to Bruce being 25. And I think in the New 52 she claimed at some point to be 23 while Bruce is allready 32.


These age gaps would still put DCEU Selina in her mid to late 30's compared to Affleck's Bruce.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Lolwut is this a serious question? Btw, George Clooney who is one of the biggest real life equivalents to Bruce Wayne that I can think of in the billionaire playboy department, ended up getting hitched to a woman over 35.


She was 35 and he was 52 when they started dating. Must you go off-topic? 

Anyways, I don't why people are so hellbent on casting an older actress to play Selina, nor do I understand why we must always talk about Selina in terms of Bruce. Yes, I'm a batcat shipper, but she needs to be able to stand on her own two feet, lest she be outdone by some clown.

----------


## Agent Z

> She was 35 and he was 52 when they started dating. Must you go off-topic? 
> 
> Anyways, I don't why people are so hellbent on casting an older actress to play Selina, nor do I understand why we must always talk about Selina in terms of Bruce. Yes, I'm a batcat shipper, but she needs to be able to stand on her own two feet, lest she be outdone by some clown.


I think people will accept a younger actress for Selina if she does well. It's just that we are also accepting of an older actress especially if she's an established veteran. No one but you seems that hung up about the actress' age.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Even in the comics Selina is younger than Bruce, in Batman Year One she was only 19 opposed to Bruce being 25. And I think in the New 52 she claimed at some point to be 23 while Bruce is allready 32.
> 
> Imo the most important question in this regard is for how long Bruce was actually in retirement in the DCEU. If it was really for 10 year like in "the Dark Knight Returns" any other Batcharcter being in his or her 20s just doesn't make sense.
> 
> If it was shorter they could make it logically work by having these characters appearing much later in his careerer than the do in the usual comic timelines.


The DCEU timeline already makes no damn sense. Despite Margot Robbie only being, like, 27, Harley was an accomplice to the death of Jason Todd 10 years ago. Even if Harley is closer to 30, it's still a suspicious point. The universe is very poorly planned so far so who cares if an actor is younger than it makes sense for them to be? I'd rather actors be cast closer to the source material than old enough to make the screwed up timeline make sense. Get a 30 something for Selina, a 20 something for Dick etc.

----------


## godisawesome

Can I ask where you're getting the "Jason Todd was dead 10 years ago" thing? I haven't heard it before and I'm personally still operating under the supposition that it was closer to five years ago, with the grief still fresh enough that the Battle of Metropolis snapped an already fragile Bruce into "That's it! I'm putting machine guns on my vehicles!" mode.

And I'm a supporter of an older Catwoman for two reasons:

1: I simply prefer an older Catwoman who's closer to Batman's age. I guess I've just always been influenced to think of her as being a more refined thief who's been through some things and is clearly older than Harley Quinn and at least more emotionally mature than Poison Ivy, considering her cynical nature. Maybe Nika Futterman and Adrienne Barbeau's voices just sound too "womanly" for me to picture youth as being a defining feature of the character against Batman; her being a bit younger than him *is* fine to me, but I can't picture the age difference being so significant that she'd be perceived as a trophy girlfriend, I guess. So to me, she should be portrayed as within a decade of Bruce's age, and ideally within 5 or so years.

2: The idea of a much-younger-than-Batman Catwoman strikes me as a bit redundant for the silver screen and _inferior_ on the comic page. Christopher Nolan and Anne Hathaway has already shown us that version; I liked it, and I even loved the implication that she viewed Batman with some awe before they met, but I don't need to see it again. I want a fully formed Paul Dini style Catwoman (my favorite version of the character) who's the oldest sister of the Sirens and on a first name basis with Bruce. Cat"girl" also kind of got ruined for me a bit by how boring and banal the New 52 version of the character was. 

And if we've got an older Batman, than I say we go all in on a developed Gotham: Nightwing as a solo hero, Babs as a computer expert (I can settle with her being Batgirl over Oracle, who's clearly a superior character, but don't limit her to the little leagues by making her Stephanie Brown-lite or trapping her in the Silver Age), Tim, Cass, Damian, or Steph somewhere in the pipeline for potential development, Jason maybe returning as Red Hood, and villains who've got a record against the Bat. And don't just give me a run-of-the-mill superhero story; I don't care if they go deep in mythology (Under the Red Hood, Son of the Bat, Morrison or Snyder style tales) or go lethally simple (like a Batman Does John Wick film, with Deathstroke ruthlessly pursuing Batman over one brutal action filled night) I just don't want a superhero film that we've seen before.

And in that context, an older Catwoman is far more natural, particularly with the Birds of Prey. If this Harley is an experienced but still young villainess (which she is), than Catwoman's not going to share the  spotlight with her and Poison Ivy if she's the same thing. Go ahead and make Harley the little broken girl, Ivy the irate and angry college student middle child, and Catwoman the street smart and savvy badass who's not scared of anyone in Gotham because _she's already beaten them all_ and no one's stupid enough to challenge her.

----------


## Aahz

> Can I ask where you're getting the "Jason Todd was dead 10 years ago" thing?


Here. It is just an Interview by Snyder and not set into stone.

----------


## godisawesome

Thanks. If I were Affleck and the other producers, I'd move that time line up a bit and have Alfred explicitly state the closeness of the two events darkened Bruce; it just works better to have Batman go through a crucible and get a little cracked. Ideally, Dick should have been estranged because of that darkness.

And maybe Selina noticed as well...

----------


## Frontier

> Here. It is just an Interview by Snyder and not set into stone.


Wasn't there an explicit date on Harley's record in _Suicide Squad_? I think it was only shown for a second though. It's how we knew she was an accomplice to Joker killing Robin.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Can I ask where you're getting the "Jason Todd was dead 10 years ago" thing? I haven't heard it before and I'm personally still operating under the supposition that it was closer to five years ago, with the grief still fresh enough that the Battle of Metropolis snapped an already fragile Bruce into "That's it! I'm putting machine guns on my vehicles!" mode..





> Here. It is just an Interview by Snyder and not set into stone.


How does it being 10 years ago work exactly? Harley Quinn looks to be in her mid 20's in the movie. So 10 years ago she would be in her mid-teens.  Yet she had a doctorate in Psychiatry 
and was a practicing Psychiatrist 10 years ago. Considering undergrad and grad school studies plus internship and residency, Harley would have had to have started college while she was 
about 8 years old.  Not to mention the idea of Joker having someone in their mid-teens being Joker's lover is awfully creepy, even for the Joker.

----------


## Atlanta96

> How does it being 10 years ago work exactly? Harley Quinn looks to be in her mid 20's in the movie. So 10 years ago she would be in her mid-teens.  Yet she had a doctorate in Psychiatry 
> and was a practicing Psychiatrist 10 years ago. Considering undergrad and grad school studies plus internship and residency, Harley would have had to have started college while she was 
> about 8 years old.  Not to mention the idea of Joker having someone in their mid-teens being Joker's lover is awfully creepy, even for the Joker.


This is why I say these films are made by morons, they're so poorly planned that the universe makes no sense once you think about it. It's so disjointed and it only 3 movies in so far. This is not the work of people who know what they're doing.

----------


## Frontier

Well, the comics don't take ages that seriously, so I'm not expecting the movies to do so either  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## KCJ506

Yeah I honestly felt that both Margot Robbie and Cara Delevingne were too young to play Harley and Enchantress since Harley was a psychiatrist and June Moone had a PhD. Realistically the characters would both be in their 30s or maybe even late 20s.

A similar thing happened with Superman Returns. It was supposed to be a sequel to the first two Superman films which took five years later and Kate Bosworth(who was only 22-23) was cast as Lois Lane. Who already had a Pulitzer and over five years of tenure at the Daily Planet and was a veteran when Clark started working there. On top of that, she had a 5-6 year old kid.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, the comics don't take ages that seriously, so I'm not expecting the movies to do so either .


With the comics it is different especially, once a continuity has run a few years, but even there it can be kind of annoying, if the writers completely ignore it. Nice example are are Holly Robinson and James Gordon Jr.. Holly was something like 12 or 13 in Year One, James Jr. newborn. At the end of the old continuity Holly was still only in her late teens, while James jr. was probably in his early 20. Both didn't made any sense.

And in a Billion Dollar Movie Franchise, that only published like 2 or 3 movies a year, and has probably a bigger and better paid creative team behind than the comics, and that had years to plan their universe, I don't think that it is to much to expect that they have a somehow consistent timeline for the background stories of their main characters.

----------


## hotroddii

Actors play the age of their characters ... not their own age. They are acting!!!

----------


## brucekent12

Ya gotta remember that the studios are making these movies for the average movie goer, who's just looking for a decent evening of entertainment and they are NOT interested in continuity, it doesn't matter to Joe Blow if Bruce is 2 or 3 years different in age from Selina or 15 years. It just really matters to the comic fan, who is a small fraction of a typical movie audience.

----------


## tbgo

lbr, the film is going to be awful just like all of the DC films now. WB doesn't care. No matter who they cast, it's not going to make a lick of difference. It's going to be a trainwreck.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Can I ask where you're getting the "Jason Todd was dead 10 years ago" thing? I haven't heard it before and I'm personally still operating under the supposition that it was closer to five years ago, with the grief still fresh enough that the Battle of Metropolis snapped an already fragile Bruce into "That's it! I'm putting machine guns on my vehicles!" mode.
> 
> And I'm a supporter of an older Catwoman for two reasons:
> 
> 1: I simply prefer an older Catwoman who's closer to Batman's age. I guess I've just always been influenced to think of her as being a more refined thief who's been through some things and is clearly older than Harley Quinn and at least more emotionally mature than Poison Ivy, considering her cynical nature. Maybe Nika Futterman and Adrienne Barbeau's voices just sound too "womanly" for me to picture youth as being a defining feature of the character against Batman; her being a bit younger than him *is* fine to me, but I can't picture the age difference being so significant that she'd be perceived as a trophy girlfriend, I guess. So to me, she should be portrayed as within a decade of Bruce's age, and ideally within 5 or so years.
> 
> 2: The idea of a much-younger-than-Batman Catwoman strikes me as a bit redundant for the silver screen and _inferior_ on the comic page. Christopher Nolan and Anne Hathaway has already shown us that version; I liked it, and I even loved the implication that she viewed Batman with some awe before they met, but I don't need to see it again. I want a fully formed Paul Dini style Catwoman (my favorite version of the character) who's the oldest sister of the Sirens and on a first name basis with Bruce. Cat"girl" also kind of got ruined for me a bit by how boring and banal the New 52 version of the character was. 
> 
> And if we've got an older Batman, than I say we go all in on a developed Gotham: Nightwing as a solo hero, Babs as a computer expert (I can settle with her being Batgirl over Oracle, who's clearly a superior character, but don't limit her to the little leagues by making her Stephanie Brown-lite or trapping her in the Silver Age), Tim, Cass, Damian, or Steph somewhere in the pipeline for potential development, Jason maybe returning as Red Hood, and villains who've got a record against the Bat. And don't just give me a run-of-the-mill superhero story; I don't care if they go deep in mythology (Under the Red Hood, Son of the Bat, Morrison or Snyder style tales) or go lethally simple (like a Batman Does John Wick film, with Deathstroke ruthlessly pursuing Batman over one brutal action filled night) I just don't want a superhero film that we've seen before.
> ...


Great post. Harley and Ivy should still be experimenting with roles in order to survive in Man's World, while Selina has already mastered it and is thriving.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Nice idea, godisawesome. 
No matter who is cast as Catwoman, we have to accept that she is now second-tier to Harley Quinn. _Gotham City Sirens_ will be Harley's movie, much like _Suicide Squad_ was hers. Margot Robbie is co-producing the movie, so Catwoman is not likely to be the leader of the pack. We're just going to have to hope that they give us an awesome Catwoman who can grab enough attention that DC will consider her marketable again, and will hopefully create a great new Catwoman comic series, toys, movies, etc.

----------


## godisawesome

Actually, I don't think Harley would lead the Sirens at all; she's more likely to be the protagonist for Robbie's higher profile, sure, but being in charge when stuff goes down is more Selina and Pamela's thing. Harley's smart and dangerous, but she does tend to be a follower more than anything, and they kept that factor in Suicide Squad. I think Poison Vy would be the strategist who comes up with the intial plan, and then the experienced Catwoman is the one who actually carries it out and improvises what needs to be improvised.

And considering how small the Sirens are as a team, you could make them all tritagonists, equally sharing the focus. Maybe Harley is trying to get out of Joker's control and be her own woman, Poison Ivy has a full scale plan she wants to carry out and wants to use it to help Harley too, and Catwoman initially gets dragged along unwillingly because she likes the status quo, and her time with the Sirens ends with her finding a new rythym and gets her groove back in full swing, like she goes from only occasionally robbing priceless artifacts to deciding she'll go ful Robin Hood and bankrupt crooks and the corrupt for the rest of the town.

----------


## Frontier

I think Harley will get a lot of promotion (since she's Harley and this is Margot Robbie's baby), but the Sirens will probably all be equals in terms of the group, though Catwoman might serve as the "keeper" for the other two to keep them from going overboard like she was did to some degree in the comics.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think Harley will get a lot of promotion (since she's Harley and this is Margot Robbie's baby), but the Sirens will probably all be equals in terms of the group, though Catwoman might serve as the "keeper" for the other two to keep them from going overboard like she was did to some degree in the comics.


In the comic books it did seem like Catwoman was the mama and Poison Ivy the serious older sister with Harley Quinn as the bratty little kid getting into messes the other two had to bail her out of.
If they want to make Harley the focus, it should be her antics the other two have to play off of.

----------


## MosSuperman

Alice Eve for Catwoman?

----------


## Huntsman1117

_Batman_ #13 is on sale now, concluding the "I Am Suicide" story.


*spoilers:*
I liked this story pretty well. I'm getting over the initial shock that Catwoman killed 237 terrorists, and coming to accept it, if it's even true - Bruce called Selina a liar in response to her previous letter to him.  I was happy to see that Catwoman didn't actually betray Batman, but instead almost too easily fooled Bane. Then she breaks his back. She does it with a single whip-assisted jumpkick from behind his as he's beating the hell out of Batman again. While I love the fact that she defeated Bane, it was too easy. Still, I like the outcome. Bat & Cat even kiss at the end but agree that they just "can't". The artist, Mike Janin, actually makes Catwoman look good in this story, despite her current outfit. He makes her look more sleek and her goggles aren't as ridiculous-looking as they usually are. I'm looking forward to the next issue of Batman as it will talk about where Bat & Cat's relationship will go from here. Hopefully she will have her own series soon.

Sorry, I don't know how to hide spoilers with a cover as some people do, especially when CBR forces me to copy my text, reload the page, and then paste my text on a fresh page.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

How about Gemma Arterton for Catwoman?

https://i.imgur.com/M9i2uIv.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

> How about Gemma Arterton for Catwoman?
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/M9i2uIv.jpg


She's okay. A little average and a little plush. She was unremarkable in _Handsel & Gretel_. Maybe if she could train hard to get in an athletic shape, and work hard to bring intelligence, wit, seduction, and sarcasm to her character, then she may make a decent Catwoman.

----------


## Caivu

> She's okay. *A little average* and a little plush.


What the hell do women in your world look like if Gemma Arterton is _average?_

That's not snark, by the way (well, maybe a little), I'm honestly curious.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What the hell do women in your world look like if Gemma Arterton is _average?_
> 
> That's not snark, by the way (well, maybe a little), I'm honestly curious.


I like her, she's attractive and a good actor even if all her movies suck. But she's more of a girl next door type, and doesn't live up to Margot or Eva Green or even that other chick from Quantum of Solace. 

And she doesn't have a single mind-blowing performance from her entire career. I won't pretend Olivia Wilde, my ideal Selina, has had the best acting career. But at least in Tron Legacy she pretty much nailed the role even if the movie wasn't good. So she's still my pick.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Compared to Margot Robbie, Gemma Arterton is very average. She would not fare well in a movie in which she is a sexy vixen alongside Margot.

----------


## Caivu

> Compared to Margot Robbie, Gemma Arterton is very average. She would not fare well in a movie in which she is a sexy vixen alongside Margot.


Agree to disagree on that one.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Agree to disagree on that one.


Agreed, though I hate to compare women. 

All I'll say is this - I personally prefer Gemma Arterton to Margot Robbie and Eva Green, and to each their own.

----------


## vitaminbee

Gemma would make a better Catwoman than Eva Green. The latter is a great actress but I just don't see her fitting with Margot. Same goes for Olivia Wilde. Gemma is also a pretty good actress. 

I do think Selina should be played by someone with the same vibe as Rachel Weisz.

----------


## oasis1313

> Gemma would make a better Catwoman than Eva Green. The latter is a great actress but I just don't see her fitting with Margot. Same goes for Olivia Wilde. Gemma is also a pretty good actress. 
> 
> I do think Selina should be played by someone with the same vibe as Rachel Weisz.


Eva Green is too creepy.  Just put some make-up on Julie Newmar and put her back in there.  She's not dead yet and she was totally STATUESQUE.

----------


## vitaminbee

Even though it would never happen... How about Anne Hathaway playing another version of Selina Kyle? I wouldn't mind it.

----------


## Huntsman1117

a766e0b26b918a89cde5f4b1ca36b6e8.jpg

MV5BMjI5NzAzMzQyNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMTU3OTA2MDE@._V1_UY317_CR141,0,214,317_AL_.jpg

jaimie-alexander-see-thru-dress-at-thor-the-dark-world-premiere-in-los-angeles-adds-4.jpg

Jaimie Alexander.

----------


## Atlanta96

> a766e0b26b918a89cde5f4b1ca36b6e8.jpg
> 
> MV5BMjI5NzAzMzQyNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMTU3OTA2MDE@._V1_UY317_CR141,0,214,317_AL_.jpg
> 
> jaimie-alexander-see-thru-dress-at-thor-the-dark-world-premiere-in-los-angeles-adds-4.jpg
> 
> Jaimie Alexander.


Interesting. I never considered her but now that I think about it, she could work.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Jamie Alexander is Not happening.

----------


## tbgo

> Even though it would never happen... How about Anne Hathaway playing another version of Selina Kyle? I wouldn't mind it.


No. Hathaway is not happening. That's the Nolan series.

----------


## vitaminbee

> No. Hathaway is not happening. That's the Nolan series.


Clearly as I said that it would never happen. I'm just saying she was a good Selina Kyle and I'd be happy with her over many of the names being tossed around.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Even though it would never happen... How about Anne Hathaway playing another version of Selina Kyle? I wouldn't mind it.


I would love that.  Another franchise be damned.  How much of the general public would even care?  Or would stop them from going to see the movie?




> No. Hathaway is not happening. That's the Nolan series.


All other things being equal would you not go see Gotham City Sirens if Anne Hathaway played Catwoman?

----------


## Atlanta96

> I would love that.  Another franchise be damned.  How much of the general public would even care?  Or would stop them from going to see the movie?
> 
> 
> 
> All other things being equal would you not go see Gotham City Sirens if Anne Hathaway played Catwoman?


I don't know if her portrayal would fit the tone of the DCEU as well as the Nolan films.

----------


## vitaminbee

> I don't know if her portrayal would fit the tone of the DCEU as well as the Nolan films.


It wouldn't be that hard. Push her just a bit to match the tone and be be the level headed character to Harley's crazy side. The Gotham City Sirens all kind of fit the classic Freudian Trio trope: The Id (Harley), the Ego (Selina) and Super Ego (Poison Ivy).

----------


## Huntsman1117

Reply to darkseidpwns

True, because Jamie Alexander is probably contracted exclusively to Marvel Studios.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Reply to vitaminbee

Regarding Anne Hathaway: I wouldn't mind it either and she said she would do it as long as Christopher Nolan was involved. But she said she doesn't think Catwoman would do well with her own movie becase "mystery suits her".

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't know if her portrayal would fit the tone of the DCEU as well as the Nolan films.


Why wouldn't it?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Why wouldn't it?


Too grounded, it was probably the least comic-bookish version of Selina ever. And Anne Hathaway was well suited to that portrayal but she doesn't really have a comic book look or personality. Not bashing her, I just don't think she'd fit in a world with a seductress plant lady and a hyperactive clown faced woman.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Here is an interesting interview with _Batman_ writer Tom King. He is the only guy creating Catwoman stories right now, and he states that he has always been a fan of her. He also states Batman's skepticism toward Catwoman's claim that she killed 237 terrorists is valid, and that his reaction to this claim is supposed to be reflective of that of the readers.  It's really all about twists and surprises.

http://www.comicosity.com/interview-...-i-am-suicide/

He also discusses Catwoman's mentality & upbringing in comparison to Batman's, and how deep their feelings for each other go. 

Check it out.

----------


## vitaminbee

> Too grounded, it was probably the least comic-bookish version of Selina ever. And Anne Hathaway was well suited to that portrayal but she doesn't really have a comic book look or personality. Not bashing her, I just don't think she'd fit in a world with a seductress plant lady and a hyperactive clown faced woman.


How doesn't she not have the comic look of Selina Kyle? She has long hair but also can pull off the short look (see post filming of Les Miserables). Her body was on point in TDKR and still could be Catwoman now. She also nailed the personality of the Selina Kyle from the Brubaker/Cooke/Stewart run along with flourishes of past versions of the character.

----------


## godisawesome

I think Hathaway knocked the Brubaker-style Catwoman out of the park; a bit more clearly serious and with a more classy Audrey Hepburn elegance to her beauty. So even her physical shape fit the idea of her being more graceful, since it was a send off ballerina training. And while her suit clearly favored the Batman '60's show, it was cut and designed to resemble the simplistic aesthetic of the Cooke design.

Personally, while I loved that take for that film series... I think I'd prefer to see the more blue-collar, boxer, adrenaline junkie Catwoman from the 90's, the one who fits high class affairs just a bit less naturally and has a wildly expressive face.  While I want a more mature actress and a Catwoman who fits Batfleck as a peer, I think it'd be fun to have her match being young at heart with being bored with the status quo, and maybe act a bit like a highly competitive veteran athlete who secure for her future but still hungry for glory. And... Maybe go for a bit more of an outright athletic physique?

----------


## Red obin

As a Steph Brown fan should I pick up her guest issues in Catwoman? Or will it not make much sense? Also should I get any tpb on Catwoman specifically new 52.

----------


## Atlanta96

> As a Steph Brown fan should I pick up her guest issues in Catwoman? Or will it not make much sense? Also should I get any tpb on Catwoman specifically new 52.


I don't know about those Steph issues but pretty much all New 52 Catwoman books are terrible.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I don't know if her portrayal would fit the tone of the DCEU as well as the Nolan films.


But would it stop you from seeing the movie if Anne Hathaway were in it?




> I think Hathaway knocked the Brubaker-style Catwoman out of the park; a bit more clearly serious and with a more classy Audrey Hepburn elegance to her beauty. So even her physical shape fit the idea of her being more graceful, since it was a send off ballerina training. And while her suit clearly favored the Batman '60's show, it was cut and designed to resemble the simplistic aesthetic of the Cooke design.
> 
> Personally, while I loved that take for that film series... I think I'd prefer to see the more blue-collar, boxer, adrenaline junkie Catwoman from the 90's, the one who fits high class affairs just a bit less naturally and has a wildly expressive face.  While I want a more mature actress and a Catwoman who fits Batfleck as a peer, I think it'd be fun to have her match being young at heart with being bored with the status quo, and maybe act a bit like a highly competitive veteran athlete who secure for her future but still hungry for glory. And... Maybe go for a bit more of an outright athletic physique?


Not sure why age seems to be a problem.  Christian Bale is 8 years older than Anne Hathaway.  Ben Affleck is 10 years older.  And Anne Hathaway is 34 now and will be 35 by the time they get around to filming CGS.
It's not like she is some 20 something actor being cast to play Catwoman. As it is Anne is already 8 years older than Margot Robbie.  Anyone older sort of brings into question as to why a older 40 something woman
is hanging out with a kid like Harley. Especially when the three of them will most likely be getting into all sorts of mischief. Ideally Catwoman should be closer in age to Harley than to Batman in the context of the 
characters in this movie. By the time a woman is in her 40s she should have moved past doing hijinks with kids. Otherwise it calls into question her mental maturity.  The producers should worry about casting an
actor that is right for this movie, rather than that actor possibly interacting with Batman in other movies or even just as a cameo character in this one.

----------


## godisawesome

> But would it stop you from seeing the movie if Anne Hathaway were in it?
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure why age seems to be a problem.  Christian Bale is 8 years older than Anne Hathaway.  Ben Affleck is 10 years older.  And Anne Hathaway is 34 now and will be 35 by the time they get around to filming CGS.
> It's not like she is some 20 something actor being cast to play Catwoman. As it is Anne is already 8 years older than Margot Robbie.  Anyone older sort of brings into question as to why a older 40 something woman
> is hanging out with a kid like Harley. Especially when the three of them will most likely be getting into all sorts of mischief. Ideally Catwoman should be closer in age to Harley than to Batman in the context of the 
> characters in this movie. By the time a woman is in her 40s she should have moved past doing hijinks with kids. Otherwise it calls into question her mental maturity.  The producers should worry about casting an
> actor that is right for this movie, rather than that actor possibly interacting with Batman in other movies or even just as a cameo character in this one.


Hatahway's age wouldn't be a problem. I'd be fine with her again, but I'd like her to change her character up.

But I don't think Catwoman needs to be close to Harley's age to get up to mischief. Catwoman's always been a "Generation 1" character in Gotham, while Harley's always been a comparative late come depending on Joker being an established force in Gotham. Even Poison Ivy's usually much more of a veteran than Harley. The old Sirens comic kind of ran on the idea that Harley was the "kid sister" of the group, with Selina Kyle as arguably the most cautious and mellow of the group, kind of like the oldest sister, since she lacked Ivy's fanatical devotion to plant life as well.

And if we're going to question why a woman closer to 40 than 30 would still be getting up to hijinks, just answer it the same way they dealt with the question for Batfleck; they can't quite abandon the game, but it has effected them. Building off of what I said earlier, I kind of like the idea that Catwoman is feeling the pull of safety and retirement, but simulataneously won't be satisfied with a sedentary lifestyle and knows she's got a lot of big scores left in her. Give her a headquarters to operate out of in Gotham, make it clear that she's got a bit of a truce with Batman, and that she lets herself get dragged into whatever hijinks Harley and Ivy get into  willingly. 

Heck, maybe go ahead and make the contrast of her willingness to take insane risks while having more to lose than the other two be one of her defining characteristics. After all, she's the Gotham supervillain willing to date the Bat, and considering the Bat was in Suicide Squad, there's nothing to stop him form cameoing to try and have Catwoman "get her house in order."

----------


## Atlanta96

> But would it stop you from seeing the movie if Anne Hathaway were in it?


Stop me? No, but I'd rather they get a new actress who could pull off a slightly more over-the-top and comic-bookish version of the character. Anne would probably end up being more distracting than anything, especially since she already played Selina in a completely separate film series.

----------


## phonogram12

> Gemma would make a better Catwoman than Eva Green. The latter is a great actress but I just don't see her fitting with Margot. Same goes for Olivia Wilde. Gemma is also a pretty good actress. 
> 
> I do think Selina should be played by someone with the same vibe as Rachel Weisz.


I agree. Seeing as I'm a huge fan of Brubaker's run, I think she can really pull off the subtleties of that characterization quite well. While obviously Selina is quite fetching, she doesn't necessarily have to be a bombshell (although that is quite the figure on Arteron, there).

----------


## Clark_Kent

I can't remember the actresses' name, but my vote goes to Regina from the Once Upon a Time show. My fiance watches that, and the lady seems like she'd be a fun Catwoman. She could pull off the playful, comic-booky nature of Sirens, and she'd look damn good doing it.

----------


## godisawesome

Lana Parilla. She's got the kind of mischievous smile and expressions that would make her feel like a take on the 90's Catwoman, who you knew was generally up to no good and, while almost always altruistic, would make a show of being reluctant about doing anything clearly heroic.

The fact she's largely a TV actress would make me a bit leery, but I like what I've seen of her.

----------


## Frontier

I hesitate to bring this up because I'm aware that this can be a somewhat...divisive issue in this thread, but I'm curious to see how they'll handle Catwoman's costume in the movie. 

The DCEU has shown that it's willing to go for comic-accurate looks (relatively speaking), though Ayer's also been known to take looks from the comics and put his own kind of original and different spin on them (unless that all falls on the costume designer). 

I think it's highly likely that she'll wear something very close to the Cooke catsuit, especially since she's been sporting some variant of it in the comics and other media for a decade or two. I guess the only question would then be how they'll adapt it or alter it and how it'll compare to the _Rises_ suit.

----------


## vitaminbee

> I hesitate to bring this up because I'm aware that this can be a somewhat...divisive issue in this thread, but I'm curious to see how they'll handle Catwoman's costume in the movie. 
> 
> The DCEU has shown that it's willing to go for comic-accurate looks (relatively speaking), though Ayer's also been known to take looks from the comics and put his own kind of original and different spin on them (unless that all falls on the costume designer). 
> 
> I think it's highly likely that she'll wear something very close to the Cooke catsuit, especially since she's been sporting some variant of it in the comics and other media for a decade or two. I guess the only question would then be how they'll adapt it or alter it and how it'll compare to the _Rises_ suit.


I'd be more than happy with the Cooke suit. Hopefully they don't go down the path where her suit is constantly unzipped and her goggles up (like she is in Arkham City/Knight). I like when it looks like the cowl and suit appear to be one rather than having that little bit of skin showing right at the neck too. Though I could see Ayer running with the Cooke design and pushing it (Second Image).

----------


## Atlanta96

I say give her a redesign, we've seen so many black cat suits on film recently (Black Widow, GI Joe, Underworld, the last Catwoman) I don't know if there's any way to keep that design and make it distinct. Maybe keep the mask and goggles but change up the body a bit.

----------


## Frontier

I think we'll definitely see the whip back in a prominent way, at the very least.

----------


## vitaminbee

> I say give her a redesign, we've seen so many black cat suits on film recently (Black Widow, GI Joe, Underworld, the last Catwoman) I don't know if there's any way to keep that design and make it distinct. Maybe keep the mask and goggles but change up the body a bit.


Catwoman is kind of synonymous with catsuits. I think it's the one thing that could stick. Just don't make it purple. Black or a dark desaturated navy would work best with no heels. Combat boots would be best for the shoes too.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Catwoman is kind of synonymous with catsuits. I think it's the one thing that could stick. Just don't make it purple. Black or a dark desaturated navy would work best with no heels. Combat boots would be best for the shoes too.


I would love to see purple come back. It was Catwoman's color through the 1940s and 1950s and again in the late 1970s/ early 1980s and most of the 1990s. 
The purple costume even made the alternate cover of the August 2016 Batman Rebirth #1. So Catwoman in purple may be gone, for now, but not forgotten.
Just too many other female characters in black. And even colorful ones like Wonder Woman have been dulled and darkened.  With a woman that wears red and
 a woman that wears green, put a little more color in the movie and put Catwoman in purple.

----------


## Frontier

Didn't Inaki Miranda try and give the catsuit purple highlights or details? Or was that just Selina's makeup and style?

----------


## Londo Bellian

During the short Tieri run? I think the catsuit did sort of turn a slight purple under certain lighting (like 90's anime Sailor Mars' hair), but I mostly remember it for the goggles that sometimes left streaky after-images when Selina is in motion.

----------


## Thirteen

> Didn't Inaki Miranda try and give the catsuit purple highlights or details? Or was that just Selina's makeup and style?


Miranda's Catwoman
Black with purple sheen highlights under regular lighting with the purple taking over when doused in bright light.   I think its a perfect compromise to inject color into the flat black/grey.

----------


## Thirteen

Re: Gotham City Sirens Selina - while I would have no problem with an encore performance by Hathaway - unlikely though it may be (I can see a sliver of possibility if Hathaway wanted to work with Robbie), I think Grace Randolph of "Beyond the Trailer" may have stumbled on a great option for casting Selina Kyle for a Sirens movie.  Discussion of the actress after the 16min mark.  



Although, Randolph discusses Janelle Monee as a casting choice for Poison Ivy, I think Monae would be a slam dunk for Selina and is a strong enough performer to eradicate any comparisons to Halle Berry's failed Catwoman.  Got that glamour in spades as well.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Re: Gotham City Sirens Selina - while I would have no problem with an encore performance by Hathaway - unlikely though it may be (I can see a sliver of possibility if Hathaway wanted to work with Robbie), I think Grace Randolph of "Beyond the Trailer" may have stumbled on a great option for casting Selina Kyle for a Sirens movie.  Discussion of the actress after the 16min mark.  
> 
> 
> 
> Although, Randolph discusses Janelle Monee as a casting choice for Poison Ivy, I think Monae would be a slam dunk for Selina and is a strong enough performer to eradicate any comparisons to Halle Berry's failed Catwoman.  Got that glamour in spades as well.


Why do people always pick a black woman as Catwoman?  Why can't Poison Ivy be the black woman this time?  Why is there this obsession with having a black woman as Catwoman?
It's not like people were beating down the doors to see the Catwoman movie because Halle Berry played the character.

----------


## Frontier

> Why do people always pick a black woman as Catwoman?  Why can't Poison Ivy be the black woman this time?  Why is there this obsession with having a black woman as Catwoman?
> It's not like people were beating down the doors to see the Catwoman movie because Halle Berry played the character.


Well, it's not like there isn't precedent for redheads in comics to be played by African-Americans in live action  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well, it's not like there isn't precedent for redheads in comics to be played by African-Americans in live action .


#HollywoodHatesGingers

----------


## Frontier

> Miranda's Catwoman
> Black with purple sheen highlights under regular lighting with the purple taking over when doused in bright light.   I think its a perfect compromise to inject color into the flat black/grey.


If possible, given she's still employed by DC, I would _love_ to see Miranda on a Catwoman Rebirth book. I thought her art was one of the major highlights of that run.

----------


## tbgo

OT: Did you notice Catwoman's new logo?

----------


## Thirteen

> Why do people always pick a black woman as Catwoman?  ....  Why is there this obsession with having a black woman as Catwoman?
> It's not like people were beating down the doors to see the Catwoman movie because Halle Berry played the character.



Theres the Eartha Kitt colorblind casting history factor and the basic common visual of a dark haired beauty lends itself to a wide variety of ethnic casting choices.
But looking at the history of major casting the character:
Lee Meriwether
Julie Newmar
Eartha Kitt
Michelle Pfieffer
Halle Berry 
Anne Hathaway

I'm not seeing an "always" or an "obsession" with Black Catwoman.




> Why can't Poison Ivy be the black woman this time?


More risky to take a historically pale skinned flame red haired character visual and do a 180 on it and have the character be recognizable.  Not unprecedented (see Jimmy Olsen) but more risky for certain given the scrutiny given to the appearances of female characters over males.
Also, the whole, "when you think plants, you think Black people...because JUNGLE!"  is tinged with some racially charged baggage.

----------


## vitaminbee

Janelle Monae would be a great Selina Kyle. Another option I'd love for the role would be Gugu Mbatha-Raw from Black Mirror, and Beyond The Lights. She definitely could play that fun mysterious side of Catwoman without being cheesy.

----------


## Aahz

> More risky to take a historically pale skinned flame red haired character visual and do a 180 on it and have the character be recognizable.  Not unprecedented (see Jimmy Olsen) but more risky for certain given the scrutiny given to the appearances of female characters over males.


The black Jimmy Olsen has apart from the anyway not much resemblance to the comic version.
Winn is imo much closer to the comic Jimmy Olsen, than the actual Jimmy Olsen in the show.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

What I hate with what Zack Snyder has done in choosing an older Batman, is now we have to live with an older Catwoman and Poison Ivy... there is nothing wrong with older actresses it's just that lives us with a small number of actresses to play the parts.. You have to factor in Margot Robbie alone can't carry the success of the Gotham Sirens movie she'll need some heavy weights by her side to pull it off.. and not only that, we need female leads with great chemistry with Ben and who work well with him.. 

My pick for Catwoman is Charlize Theron - she has similar real life back story to Catwoman (her mother being a violent relationship with her father and her killing him) which would give her connection with Catwoman, she has a repertiore of solid recent movies under her belt and she has great chemistry with Ben..

My pick for Poison Ivy is Rosamund Pike - Her performance in Gone Girl just reminds me of Poison Ivy and she stole the show from Ben and her pale skin will go well with red hair.

The cast for Catwoman and Poison Ivy has to symbolise characters who've been around since Batman began his venture and Harley Quinn as a more recent one.

----------


## Caivu

> My pick for Catwoman is Charlize Theron - she has similar real life back story to Catwoman (her mother being a violent relationship with her father and her killing him) which would give her connection with Catwoman, she has a repertiore of solid recent movies under her belt and she has great chemistry with Ben..


And she has plenty of stunt experience, too.

----------


## Frontier

It would be interesting to see Catwoman go blonde again  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

She doesn't have to be blonde, there is a thing called hair dye :P.. she has the acting chops and popularity to pull it off.. fpr a Batman movie you could pick anyone but for Gotham Sirens you need big names in their 40s/late 30s side by side with Margot Robbie.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> What I hate with what Zack Snyder has done in choosing an older Batman, is now we have to live with an older Catwoman and Poison Ivy... there is nothing wrong with older actresses it's just that lives us with a small number of actresses to play the parts.. You have to factor in Margot Robbie alone can't carry the success of the Gotham Sirens movie she'll need some heavy weights by her side to pull it off.. and not only that, we need female leads with great chemistry with Ben and who work well with him.. 
> 
> My pick for Catwoman is Charlize Theron - she has similar real life back story to Catwoman (her mother being a violent relationship with her father and her killing him) which would give her connection with Catwoman, she has a repertiore of solid recent movies under her belt and she has great chemistry with Ben..


I still insist that WB should just bring back Anne Hathaway.  She's 34, just the right age, and she's an Oscar winning actress, and The Intern received positive reviews with Anne 
getting as much credit as DeNiro, and had good box office, and she has proven she knows how to play the character. WB would be lucky to have her again.
And don't give me that BS about how the Nolan trilogy was a different continuity. That's just stupid.  No one in the real world really cares about that. And even if they
did a solid performance would win them over.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> I still insist that WB should just bring back Anne Hathaway.  She's 34, just the right age, and she's an Oscar winning actress, and The Intern received positive reviews with Anne 
> getting as much credit as DeNiro, and had good box office, and she has proven she knows how to play the character. WB would be lucky to have her again.
> And don't give me that BS about how the Nolan trilogy was a different continuity. That's just stupid.  No one in the real world really cares about that. And even if they
> did a solid performance would win them over.


As long as they get actresses for the role of Catwoman and Poison Ivy are close in age with Ben Affleck, and have the same acting pedigree, I am ok with it.. If there were no Gotham Siren movie before there was a Batman movie or a younger Batman then the suggestions that were made before would be great.. However that's not the case and to be a successfull franchise they need big stars.

----------


## Cmbmool

> Why do people always pick a black woman as Catwoman?  Why can't Poison Ivy be the black woman this time?  Why is there this obsession with having a black woman as Catwoman?
> It's not like people were beating down the doors to see the Catwoman movie because Halle Berry played the character.


Two words and it's not Halle Berry: Eartha Kitt.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Two words and it's not Halle Berry: Eartha Kitt.


Not sure you meant to, but you are sort of making my point.  After all they did cancel the TV series after that was done.   :Wink:

----------


## vitaminbee

> Not sure you meant to, but you are sort of making my point.  After all they did cancel the TV series after that was done.


So you are blaming the end of the series on the casting of Eartha Kitt and the failure of the Catwoman movie on Halle Berry? The former ended because of low ratings, that started during the second season, and the latter is due to an awful script and a bad director. If she was given the right material to work with, I'm sure Halle would have made a decent/good Selina Kyle. Also I think people are picking actresses like Gugu Mbatha-Raw and Thandi Newton because they embody the same confidence/energy that makes up Selina Kyle.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> So you are blaming the end of the series on the casting of Eartha Kurt and the failure of the Catwoman movie on Halle Berry? The former ended because of low ratings, that started during the second season, and the latter is due to an awful script and a bad director. If she was given the right material to work with, I'm sure Halle would have made a decent/good Selina Kyle. Also I think people are picking actresses like Gugu Mbatha-Raw and Thandi Newton because they embody the same confidence/energy that makes up Selina Kyle.


That's right it's the quality of the scripts/story that makes the character successful, as well as hiring talented actors/actresses to portray them.. Halle Berry was an A list actress at the time she did the movie, she had a number of successful movies under her belt and it was unfair to blame her solely for Catwoman movie's failure..

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I think the main problem with the Catwoman movie (aside from having no comic book basis) was that it didn't know whether to be a romantic comedy or action movie.

----------


## godisawesome

The Catwoman movie belonged to that really weird era of comic movies where the writers and directors didn't understand why the property already had a fanbase and discounted all the proven literary elements from the comics. I mean, a quick perusal of Catwoman comics form the production time of the film would have proven that the character lent herself to a heist movie, not a Spiderman rip-off, and that any dichotomy of the secret identity with the costumed one was artificial and based off con-woman principles, not the strangely Teen Wolf thing they went with.

It's the kind of weird policies in Hollywood about story direction where they don't see the value on what were effectively rough drafts you could base a movie off of. I mean, you can't guarantee it would have been good, but just slapping a copy of The Catfile from the 90's series by Chuck Dixon in front of the script writer would have resolved a lot of the film's missteps, just like how giving Jon Favreau maybe two Iron Man comics would inspire the first Iron Man movie.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> The Catwoman movie belonged to that really weird era of comic movies where the writers and directors didn't understand why the property already had a fanbase and discounted all the proven literary elements from the comics. I mean, a quick perusal of Catwoman comics form the production time of the film would have proven that the character lent herself to a heist movie, not a Spiderman rip-off, and that any dichotomy of the secret identity with the costumed one was artificial and based off con-woman principles, not the strangely Teen Wolf thing they went with.
> 
> It's the kind of weird policies in Hollywood about story direction where they don't see the value on what were effectively rough drafts you could base a movie off of. I mean, you can't guarantee it would have been good, but just slapping a copy of The Catfile from the 90's series by Chuck Dixon in front of the script writer would have resolved a lot of the film's missteps, just like how giving Jon Favreau maybe two Iron Man comics would inspire the first Iron Man movie.


It's fair to say they get her characterisation is wrong  in the movies, however as it stands they are getting her wrong in the comics as well lately, along as with other female characters.
And they seem to be doing the same thing you are mentioning the writers who have reincarnated her lately like Judd Winnick, Ann Nocent even Genevieve Valentine were more interested in putting their own spin on her, rather than write through Selina's character. I don't think they whole heartedly understood her for who she is, there understand of them reflected their interpretation of her which frustrates her fans greatly.

----------


## Dr Quinch

> Two words and it's not Halle Berry: Eartha Kitt.


Eartha is the reason why I cannot accept any incarnation of Catwoman that doesn't have a sexy voice.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Well, Batman #15 clears up the mystery of Catwoman and those 237 people killed.  Also liked the Batman #1/Batman Year One references.

----------


## dietrich

*Tyler Kirkham Catwoman Variant cover for Supersons #1*

----------


## Agent Z

Is that cover really appropriate for a series of this nature?

----------


## Londo Bellian

No gore, no foul? There are variants with Poison Ivy (growing an apple) and "Principal" J (withe infamous crowbar), and one with all three.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Is that cover really appropriate for a series of this nature?


She's fully clothed.

----------


## Frontier

> Is that cover really appropriate for a series of this nature?


Well, boys will be boys...

----------


## Selina

totally gorgeous, the love of batman's life and a good heart.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Is that cover really appropriate for a series of this nature?


It's more modest than the Poison Ivy cover. At least Catwoman isn't half naked.

----------


## Agent Z

> It's more modest than the Poison Ivy cover. At least Catwoman isn't half naked.


I didn't think the Ivy cover was a good idea either.

----------


## Huntsman1117

That cover is awesome. There's nothing wrong with it. Catwoman looks great on it. 

It's interesting that people are now agreeing with me that Charlize would be great as Catwoman in Gotham City Sirens.

I think most of the character designs in the Suicide Squad movie were very different from how they've looked in other media up to that point. So I think Catwoman would look completely different in Gotham City Sirens.

I haven't read BATMAN #15 yet but I really liked issue #14 and I'm excited about Catwoman's potential future in comics.

She still needs a new look.

I've also noticed new Catwoman toys are colored purple, particularly in the new LEGO BATMAN MOVIE.  I see purple making a comeback.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Also, Anne Hathaway said she would only play Selina Kyle again if Christopher Nolan was directing, and that Catwoman should only be a supporting character because "mystery suits her". I suppose that's implying that the audience is better off not knowing what Catwoman's plans are, nor have an idea what she might do. In some regards, I agree with her on that.

----------


## Confuzzled

Anne Hathaway again? No thanks.

As for Selina's "mystery" aspect, GCS did manage to pull off a neat twist with the character and her motivations at the end despite her being one of the three leads.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Also, Anne Hathaway said she would only play Selina Kyle again if Christopher Nolan was directing, and that Catwoman should only be a supporting character because "mystery suits her". I suppose that's implying that the audience is better off not knowing what Catwoman's plans are, nor have an idea what she might do. In some regards, I agree with her on that.


I think if David Ayer or Margot Robbie asked Anne nicely, she would be glad to play Selina Kyle again.  Would love to see her back as Selina again.

----------


## Huntsman1117

BATMAN #15 is the greatest Catwoman story I've read in a long time. Tom King has given Catwoman a consolidated and slightly more clarified origin by going back to Selina Kyle's roots from both the Silver Age and the Modern Age. 


*spoiler alert* 
*spoiler alert*
*spoiler alert*


It was the street. That's where Bat & Cat first met. At least that's what Catwoman argues. They met on a street on the East End when Bruce was disguised as Matches Malone and was trying to save Holly Robinson, even as she was stabbing him in the leg, and Selina (with a shaved head) tried to roundhouse kick him wearing a bustier and high heels. Bruce argues that their first meeting was on a boat when he busted her trying to steal diamonds while disguised as an elderly woman. Both events apparently happened, but I think Selina is correct in her argument.  So, it was Holly Robinson. She is Selina's secret friend, she was there when Bruce and Selina first met, she was an orphan like Selina, and she killed 237 terrorists when they blew up the Wayne orphanage, where Holly & Selina lived together when they were younger, a little over 5 years ago. Catwoman tried to cover for Holly's killing spree. But Catwoman slipped Holly's name while arguing about his & her first meeting. Batman found Holly, who cut his throat. He would have died if Catwoman hadn't found him and taken him to Alfred. Catwoman leaves before Bruce wakes up heartbroken. I assume Catwoman is going to try to find and protect the fleeing Holly. Thus, the stage is set for new adventures of Catwoman and Holly, possibly. And I'm happy. Catwoman's "Rebirth" has begun and I am excited at the prospects.

Now DC can give her a new solo series, and a new costume ;-)

----------


## Huntsman1117

*spoiler alert*





I've never seen Bruce and Selina say "I love you" to one another before BATMAN #15. They did this after having sex on a rooftop surrounded by diamonds that Catwoman scattered around them, which she wants Bruce to cash in and use to build a new orphanage or some other charitable work. Then they playfully argue over when they first met. So I'm assuming that bits and pieces from both the Silver Age Catwoman and the Modern Age Catwoman  are cannon in the Rebirth Catwoman's origin, and I'm satisfied with that. It beats the hell out of the lame origin she was given for the New 52. Recently, I was re-reading Ed Brubaker's CATWOMAN and it got me missing Holly. I'm glad to have seen her again.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

whatever happened to Catwoman's Catacomb, and her ability to disguise herself, it be great if they could somehow incorperate that if they did her new series

----------


## Huntsman1117

> whatever happened to Catwoman's Catacomb, and her ability to disguise herself, it be great if they could somehow incorperate that if they did her new series


Agreed. We should see her many "Catacombs," hideouts, and store rooms. And for an woman wanted for hundreds of felonies, she should constantly be using many disguises every day to live under cover in our modern world.

----------


## hotroddii

Ruby-Rose.jpg

I think Ruby Rose could possibly play a great Catwoman ... may need to cover up some tatts though!

----------


## tbgo

> I think if David Ayer or Margot Robbie asked Anne nicely, she would be glad to play Selina Kyle again.  Would love to see her back as Selina again.


Anne is hated by the public. Her Catwoman sucked. Just no.

----------


## tbgo

> *Tyler Kirkham Catwoman Variant cover for Supersons #1*


Top half of that costume needs an overhaul.

----------


## Caivu

> Anne is hated by the public. Her Catwoman sucked. Just no.


For both parts of this: since when?  :Confused:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> For both parts of this: since when?


How could anyone hate Anne Hathaway.  And playing Catwoman again would be one of her more normal new projects.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Anne is hated by the public. Her Catwoman sucked. Just no.


No, her Catwoman was awesome.

----------


## The Whovian

> Anne is hated by the public. Her Catwoman sucked. Just no.


I didn't think so

----------


## brucekent12

I was under the impression that  Anne's Catwoman  was well accepted by the fans,  she ran into trouble with the public on Les Miz, for whatever reason.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I was under the impression that  Anne's Catwoman  was well accepted by the fans,  she ran into trouble with the public on Les Miz, for whatever reason.


Her Catwoman was polarizing. I liked it, a lot of other people did too, a lot of people thought she came off as weak. I don't agree but I understand why it wasn't everyone's ideal Selina Kyle.

I think the Hatha-Hate is more about her real life persona than her acting. She had a tendency to be a little obnoxious at times. I think a lot of the backlash was overblown and she was never THAT bad, but whatever.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Most criticisms of Hathaway's Catwoman are stupid because they usually boil down to her lack of claws or a whip. I thought she did a great job delivering the personality and essence of the character.

----------


## Confuzzled

Anne's Catwoman would be at home in a "Barbie Gotham City Sirens" movie.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

She seemed more lightweight mean girlish than the powerful force of nature that Selina should be. Michelle Pfeiffer's take wasn't exactly the character from the comics, but boy did she bring the essence and charisma in boatloads.

----------


## Frontier

> Anne's Catwoman would be at home in a "Barbie Gotham City Sirens" movie. 
> 
> She seemed more lightweight mean girlish than the powerful force of nature that Selina should be. Michelle Pfeiffer's take wasn't exactly the character from the comics, but boy did she bring the essence and charisma in boatloads.


She seemed like enough of a force of nature on that Batcycle and in those heels  :Wink: .

----------


## vitaminbee

Anne Hathaway was almost the perfect Catwoman/Selina Kyle from the comics at the time. She really did a great job at capturing the nature of the character and how she had to survive in Gotham. If the costume was more like the Cooke design or had a cowl/mask people would have probably have loved her more. I loved the look though.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I was under the impression that  Anne's Catwoman  was well accepted by the fans,  she ran into trouble with the public on Les Miz, for whatever reason.


Was that because she won an Oscar for that role?  Like maybe there were people that thought someone else should have won.  Or they didn't like her acceptance speech.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Anne Hathaway was almost the perfect Catwoman/Selina Kyle from the comics at the time. She really did a great job at capturing the nature of the character and how she had to survive in Gotham. If the costume was more like the Cooke design or had a cowl/mask people would have probably have loved her more. I loved the look though.


Me too, I hope Catwoman's next redesign takes some cues from it.




> Was that because she won an Oscar for that role?  Like maybe there were people that thought someone else should have won.  Or they didn't like her acceptance speech.


Some people feel like her excitement for was fake.

----------


## tbgo

> Was that because she won an Oscar for that role?  Like maybe there were people that thought someone else should have won.  Or they didn't like her acceptance speech.


She's insufferable and actors don't like working with her.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> She's insufferable and actors don't like working with her.


Matthew McConaughey didn't seem to have any problems working with her in "Intersteller". Robert De Niro didn't seem to have any problems working with her in "The Intern". 
 Johnny Depp didn't seem to have a problem working with her in "Alice Through the Looking Glass".  She been cast in at least one movie every year since 2001, her first movie.
It would seem someone hard to work with would have trouble getting roles.  Who are the actors that don't like working with her?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Matthew McConaughey didn't seem to have any problems working with her in "Intersteller". Robert De Niro didn't seem to have any problems working with her in "The Intern". 
>  Johnny Depp didn't seem to have a problem working with her in "Alice Through the Looking Glass".  She been cast in at least one movie every year since 2001, her first movie.
> It would seem someone hard to work with would have trouble getting roles.  Who are the actors that don't like working with her?


Dude, if being difficult to work with prevented actors from getting roles then every actor in Hollywood would be out of a job  :Smile:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Dude, if being difficult to work with prevented actors from getting roles then every actor in Hollywood would be out of a job


Based on what evidence?

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Attachment 44158
> 
> I think Ruby Rose could possibly play a great Catwoman ... may need to cover up some tatts though!


Not bad............

----------


## Huntsman1117

I think an actress from a Latino descent would be good for Selina.


74a15c6ed8d8bf605d94f14ace5bbce2.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Someone like this.........





Screenshot_20161230-144654.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Or this........


Screenshot_20161230-145106.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Or her............


Screenshot_20161230-160748.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Or maybe her........


Screenshot_20161230-144925.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Or her.......


Ildi-Silva.jpg

Screenshot_20161230-160839.jpg

Screenshot_20161230-160839.jpg

Screenshot_20161230-160908.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Check out BATMAN #17. Catwoman is still in the game. Interesting how completely different he acts toward Catwoman compared to Nightwing, Red Hood, & Damien Robin. He doesn't really assert himself with her. He's almost passive in their battle of wills.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Some people feel like her excitement for was fake.


She admitted as such herself. I don't care about her real life persona though. I didn't like her interpretation of Selina is all (Gwyneth Paltrow is another actress who comes across as very pretentious in real life but she delivered a great Pepper Potts for the MCU so I had no problem with her playing Pepper).

Speaking of actresses playing Selina on the big screen, Collider revealed Zoe Kravitz (_Mad Max: Fury Road, X-Men: First Class_) is voicing Catwoman in the Lego Batman Movie.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Cool. I'm glad to see that Catwoman has a speaking role. Her new LEGO look is better than the one before. It is purple - which I kind of appreciate - but between herself, Batgirl, and the Joker there's a lot of purple going on. Still, I think its a cool new look for her LEGO character.

----------


## Agent Z

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/02/05/c...eus-catwoman-/

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/02/05/c...eus-catwoman-/


So without having to wade through hundreds of posts, did anyone pick her?  And 29 years old? So much for the claims that Catwoman has to match Ben Affleck's Batman in age.

----------


## Badou

I thought they would go for someone older too. She pretty young. Looks like there is going to be a 15-20 year age difference between them in this universe if that is her.

----------


## Atlanta96

She's cute, I think she could pull of Selina's look is they made her up right. But it's increasingly clear that having an older Batman is completely inconsistent with everything else in the DCEU. What a dumb move, a 45 year old Batman and young, fresh and attractive everyone else.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> She's cute, I think she could pull of Selina's look is they made her up right. But it's increasingly clear that having an older Batman is completely inconsistent with everything else in the DCEU. What a dumb move, a 45 year old Batman and young, fresh and attractive everyone else.


Not necessarily. 

All we know is Batman was active for twenty years before Superman showed up. We know his methods escalated over time. We also know that Superman was a very big change of the status quo in the world. The world simply wasn't used to seeing people in garish costumes, performing operatic feats of power and skill. It's easy enough to say that Batman spent a fair bit of those twenty years just fighting crime lords and corrupt city officials in Gotham. It's a common theory that superheroes escalate crime to the point where the criminals start becoming super as well. 

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the Batman rogues gallery we know and love is a relatively new development. Joker? Only showed up recently. Ditto for Harley, Croc, and even Catwoman.

----------


## Frontier

Even if the actress is younger, I'm guessing they'll handle her like Harley and stretch her age to accommodate a longer career as Catwoman to match Affleck's Batman and just not sweat any timeline issues. I doubt Batman's Rogues Gallery is going to be treated as a relatively new thing in this universe. 

As for the actress, she looks fine, but she doesn't scream "Catwoman" or Selina Kyle to me.

"Traditional pixie cut?" Y'know she used to have long hair  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Vanguard-01

Yeah, she doesn't look much like Selina, but then again neither does Camren Bicondova. And she's one of my favorite Selina iterations ever, so...... 

I'm willing to give her a chance if this is for real.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah, she doesn't look much like Selina, but then again neither does Camren Bicondova. And she's one of my favorite Selina iterations ever, so...... 
> 
> I'm willing to give her a chance if this is for real.


How many of Selina's actresses have even looked like her?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> How many of Selina's actresses have even looked like her?


Honestly? None of them, come to think of it. 

Julie Newmar is about as close as we've ever gotten, unless I'm very much mistaken.

----------


## Frontier

I always though Ann Hathaway looked like a perfect Selina Kyle.



> Yeah, she doesn't look much like Selina, but then again neither does Camren Bicondova. And she's one of my favorite Selina iterations ever, so...... 
> 
> I'm willing to give her a chance if this is for real.


I think Carmen Bicondova looks about right as a young, street punk, Selina Kyle. And if her in-universe mom is an indication, she'll definitely grow into a good adult Catwoman  :Wink: .

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I always though Ann Hathaway looked like a perfect Selina Kyle.


Grrr! I knew I was forgetting someone!

*Sigh*

Yes. Ann Hathaway is the closest we've ever come to a comic-accurate Selina Kyle. I will now go and bang my head against a wall for forgetting the most recent Catwoman movie portrayal. 




> I think Carmen Bicondova looks about right as a young, street punk, Selina Kyle. And if her in-universe mom is an indication, she'll definitely grow into a good adult Catwoman .


Yeah, when she grows up some, she might look more like her comics counterpart. I just remember seeing the first image of her and going "WTF?"

----------


## Dr Quinch

> How many of Selina's actresses have even looked like her?


Lee Meriweather came close, except for not having green eyes, which is really a minor quibble.

----------


## adrikito

Congratulations for the 100 pages.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Even if the actress is younger, I'm guessing they'll handle her like Harley and stretch her age to accommodate a longer career as Catwoman to match Affleck's Batman and just not sweat any timeline issues. I doubt Batman's Rogues Gallery is going to be treated as a relatively new thing in this universe. 
> 
> As for the actress, she looks fine, but she doesn't scream "Catwoman" or Selina Kyle to me.
> 
> "Traditional pixie cut?" Y'know she used to have long hair .


For the movies anything Frank Miller is traditional Batman.  Nothing else Batman counts in the movies. So as Catwoman has short hair in Batman: Year One, that's traditional.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Not necessarily. 
> 
> All we know is Batman was active for twenty years before Superman showed up. We know his methods escalated over time. We also know that Superman was a very big change of the status quo in the world. The world simply wasn't used to seeing people in garish costumes, performing operatic feats of power and skill. It's easy enough to say that Batman spent a fair bit of those twenty years just fighting crime lords and corrupt city officials in Gotham. It's a common theory that superheroes escalate crime to the point where the criminals start becoming super as well. 
> 
> It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the Batman rogues gallery we know and love is a relatively new development. Joker? Only showed up recently. Ditto for Harley, Croc, and even Catwoman.


That's exactly the bloody problem, that Batman is a middle aged dude who's been at crimefighting for 20 years while almost everyone else in his world is a fresh faced newcomer. His closest allies, his enemies, all completely inconsistent with this version of Bruce. So he just spent 20 years beating up petty thugs with little to no actual villains? That is pathetic. Having Batman active for this long without superheroes or villains (aside from dead Jason, I guess) is lame and lacks foresight.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

Harley Quinn is a character that has been created more recently compared to Catwoman and Poison Ivy.. so symbolically it's ok she's in her 20's but Catwoman and Poison Ivy should be in the late 30's/40's.. Besides with all the hype with Christie Brinkley and her daughters on sports illustrated promoting that age is just a number DCEU should make the same kind of message by choosing talented actresses who matches Ben's status and age.. Like Charlize Theron for Catwoman and Rosamund Pike for Poison Ivy.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's exactly the bloody problem, that Batman is a middle aged dude who's been at crimefighting for 20 years while almost everyone else in his world is a fresh faced newcomer. His closest allies, his enemies, all completely inconsistent with this version of Bruce. So he just spent 20 years beating up petty thugs with little to no actual villains? That is pathetic. Having Batman active for this long without superheroes or villains (aside from dead Jason, I guess) is lame and lacks foresight.


Who says it was just petty thugs? There's also mob bosses, human traffickers, arms dealers etc.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Who says it was just petty thugs? There's also mob bosses, human traffickers, arms dealers etc.


Fodder is fodder, with each passing day the DCEU kills its own potential. Its gonna be hilarious if this Batman has fought even less actual villains than Nolan Batman.

----------


## Agent Z

> Fodder is fodder, with each passing day the DCEU kills its own potential. Its gonna be hilarious if this Batman has fought even less actual villains than Nolan Batman.


We already know he's encountered Harley, Joker and Croc. This universe is barely getting off the ground so can we leave the "sky is falling" predictions to Chicken Little, please?

----------


## Thirteen

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/02/05/c...eus-catwoman-/


Haley Bennett is serving up some Selina-esque energy in a few of her Instagram posts
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP-ewXrBNMB/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP8eeSkBsql/

And this drawing of her is damn near dead on Adam Hughes Catwoman
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPfWNHshKxN/

And just for fun...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BN5LJkgBlcV/

----------


## Confuzzled

> Harley Quinn is a character that has been created more recently compared to Catwoman and Poison Ivy.. so symbolically it's ok she's in her 20's but Catwoman and Poison Ivy should be in the late 30's/40's.. Besides with all the hype with Christie Brinkley and her daughters on sports illustrated promoting that age is just a number DCEU should make the same kind of message by choosing talented actresses who matches Ben's status and age.. Like Charlize Theron for Catwoman and Rosamund Pike for Poison Ivy.


To be fair, Haley Bennett is 29 and will turn 30 (possibly 31 too) before Sirens releases. So even if they establish Selina as being in her early 30's in the DCEU, she can still get about 10-12 years of history as Catwoman. That age difference with Ben Affleck is there but they could say Bruce Wayne is 40-41 in the DCEU to reduce the gap to about 10 years.

This is obviously assuming she is indeed the pick instead of her just pulling a Sean Young and fiercely campaigning for the role. I agree that your picks for Selina and Pamela are much better (there were rumors floating about that WB/DC were in talks with Rosamund Pike and Jessica Chastain so hopefully one of them gets cast as Ivy instead of the dreaded Megan Fox).

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> To be fair, Haley Bennett is 29 and will turn 30 (possibly 31 too) before Sirens releases. So even if they establish Selina as being in her early 30's in the DCEU, she can still get about 10-12 years of history as Catwoman. That age difference with Ben Affleck is there but they could say Bruce Wayne is 40-41 in the DCEU to reduce the gap to about 10 years.
> 
> This is obviously assuming she is indeed the pick instead of her just pulling a Sean Young and fiercely campaigning for the role. I agree that your picks for Selina and Pamela are much better (there were rumors floating about that WB/DC were in talks with Rosamund Pike and Jessica Chastain so hopefully one of them gets cast as Ivy instead of the dreaded Megan Fox).


The thing is if they were doing just a Batman movie then you could have picked a talented supporting cast for Catwoman, but because she's going to be in the Gotham Sirens movie Catwoman and Poison Ivy should be played by the creme of Hollywood. Margot Robbie is a luck of the draw because she's talented and hot at the moment, but I don't think she can pull off a movie on her own just yet, she need big names by her side who are just as hot as her but older.

To me Rosamund Pike's based on her performance in Gone Girl, felt more like Poison Ivy than Catwoman, plus her lily white skin would look great with vibrant red hair, as for Catwoman, she needs to be played by an actress who can do action, comedy, and complex characters as well as have the same kind of status a Ben Affleck e.g  Zoe Saldana, Emily Blunt and Charlize Theron .. reason being that Catwoman and Batman are often portrayed as equals.. All the gals I've mentioned are familiar with Ben or worked with him and they have on screen chemistry with him too.. Plus DCEU hiring those experienced actressed would reflect that women, who are older are not obsolete.. Althought we never got much of an on screen progression of these characters (Catwoman and Poison Ivy) in the same way we got Batman it be interesting for the movie to set what these women do in the future which hasn't been overly done or not done at all in comics..

----------


## Confuzzled

> The thing is if they were doing just a Batman movie then you could have picked a talented supporting cast for Catwoman, but because she's going to be in the Gotham Sirens movie Catwoman and Poison Ivy should be played by the creme of Hollywood. Margot Robbie is a luck of the draw because she's talented and hot at the moment, but I don't think she can pull off a movie on her own just yet, she need big names by her side who are just as hot as her but older.
> 
> To me Rosamund Pike's based on her performance in Gone Girl, felt more like Poison Ivy than Catwoman, plus her lily white skin would look great with vibrant red hair, as for Catwoman, she needs to be played by an actress who can do action, comedy, and complex characters as well as have the same kind of status a Ben Affleck e.g  Zoe Saldana, Emily Blunt and Charlize Theron .. reason being that Catwoman and Batman are often portrayed as equals.. All the gals I've mentioned are familiar with Ben or worked with him and they have on screen chemistry with him too.. Plus DCEU hiring those experienced actressed would reflect that women, who are older are not obsolete.. Althought we never got much of an on screen progression of these characters (Catwoman and Poison Ivy) in the same way we got Batman it be interesting for the movie to set what these women do in the future which hasn't been overly done or not done at all in comics..


One thing to note is that Robbie is one of the film's producers and if it weren't for her and her breaking out in Suicide Squad, this movie wouldn't even be greenlit. I don't know how influential she will be (she did get an initial writer for the outline of the movie), so there is a good chance Harley Quinn is front and centre (and if the casting of Nancy Kerrigan of her upcoming Tonya Harding film is anything to go by (Robbie's also producing and starring as Harding), she may ensure the actresses for the other two villainesses aren't Hollywood A-List who would easily overshadow her).

Regarding a Selina Kyle with history and experience, as long as they don't go the Dark Knight Returns madam route, I'm good. Interestingly, the DCAU was the first to retire Poison Ivy from villainy (revealing in the spin-off comics that she had settled down with Alec Holland in the jungles of South America).

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> One thing to note is that Robbie is one of the film's producers and if it weren't for her and her breaking out in Suicide Squad, this movie wouldn't even be greenlit. I don't know how influential she will be (she did get an initial writer for the outline of the movie), so there is a good chance Harley Quinn is front and centre (and if the casting of Nancy Kerrigan of her upcoming Tonya Harding film is anything to go by (Robbie's also producing and starring as Harding), she may ensure the actresses for the other two villainesses aren't Hollywood A-List who would easily overshadow her).
> 
> Regarding a Selina Kyle with history and experience, as long as they don't go the Dark Knight Returns madam route, I'm good. Interestingly, the DCAU was the first to retire Poison Ivy from villainy (revealing in the spin-off comics that she had settled down with Alec Holland in the jungles of South America).


Margot Robbie may be one of the film's producers, but she's young and she doesn't have the experience and enough influence with the likes of Ben Affleck for instance. Most of the superhero movies have always used A-list actors mixed with new comers and good scripts to have a successful movie wether it's DC franchises or Marvel franchises they have always used that mix.. Movies who took short cuts to this fact have always failed e.g Catwoman movie had all talented A-list actors but bad script/story which bombed or Superman Return had bad timing, (should have been done in the 80's) and the A list actor was Kevin Spacey and maybe James Marsden, they alone couldn't carry the movie. 
DCEU cannot make anymore mistakes with their franchise because if a few of these movies bomb than it will put future franchises in jeopardy, besides whoever Robbie chooses will have to pass Ben Affleck too, because he will have to work with them aswell. I doubt she is that shallow to want to be front and centre because if she is that talented she would want to challenge herself to match it with the an A-list.. Her movie is more on the line than Batman, the Batman movie can do without an A-list but hers can't and the people above her will not want it to fail because there is a lot at stake.

----------


## Thirteen

> Cool. I'm glad to see that Catwoman has a speaking role. Her new LEGO look is better than the one before. It is purple - which I kind of appreciate - but between herself, Batgirl, and the Joker there's a lot of purple going on. Still, I think its a cool new look for her LEGO character.



Lego Selina is ADORABLE  Love seeing color re-introduced into the modern design.  I thought she was holding up a martini glass for a sec on the cycle - Selina drinking a COSMO?!??

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Margot Robbie may be one of the film's producers, but she's young and she doesn't have the experience and enough influence with the likes of Ben Affleck for instance. Most of the superhero movies have always used A-list actors mixed with new comers and good scripts to have a successful movie wether it's DC franchises or Marvel franchises they have always used that mix.. Movies who took short cuts to this fact have always failed e.g Catwoman movie had all talented A-list actors but bad script/story which bombed or Superman Return had bad timing, (should have been done in the 80's) and the A list actor was Kevin Spacey and maybe James Marsden, they alone couldn't carry the movie. 
> DCEU cannot make anymore mistakes with their franchise because if a few of these movies bomb than it will put future franchises in jeopardy, besides whoever Robbie chooses will have to pass Ben Affleck too, because he will have to work with them aswell. I doubt she is that shallow to want to be front and centre because if she is that talented she would want to challenge herself to match it with the an A-list.. Her movie is more on the line than Batman, the Batman movie can do without an A-list but hers can't and the people above her will not want it to fail because there is a lot at stake.


That's assuming Ben Affleck doesn't decide to bail on The Batman altogether.  He already stepped down as director and now reports are out they tossed his script into the trashcan and are writing the movie from scratch.
And they could just scrap the idea of a Batman movie altogether.

----------


## vitaminbee

I'm still hoping for Gugu Mbatha-Raw for Selina. She's got the acting chops, the look/vibe and seems to fit the age people want.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I'm still hoping for Gugu Mbatha-Raw for Selina. She's got the acting chops, the look/vibe and seems to fit the age people want.


My theory is they are going Caucasian for Selina because of how poorly Halle Berry's Catwoman was received as compared to Michelle Pfeiffer's, Anne Hathaway's, and Camren Bicondova's Selina Kyles 
have been received.  So any thoughts of an African-American or Asian-American Selina are just a pipe dream. The most that could be hoped for would be a pale skinned Hispanic actress.

----------


## vitaminbee

> My theory is they are going Caucasian for Selina because of how poorly Halle Berry's Catwoman was received as compared to Michelle Pfeiffer's, Anne Hathaway's, and Camren Bicondova's Selina Kyles 
> have been received.  So any thoughts of an African-American or Asian-American Selina are just a pipe dream. The most that could be hoped for would be a pale skinned Hispanic actress.


Really? You are blaming the failure of that film on Halle Berry and her ethnicity? It was a bad script with a bad director. They could have had Michelle Pfeiffer as the lead in that film and under the name "Selina" and not "Patience" and it still would have been awful. Don't blame a movies failure on the actress and her ethnicity because Halle Berry is a good actress when she has a good script to work from.

----------


## LimeBright

Here to express my amusement on how once the Catwoman role is up for grabs, actresses come out of the wood work wanting to snatch it, lol.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Really? You are blaming the failure of that film on Halle Berry and her ethnicity? It was a bad script with a bad director. They could have had Michelle Pfeiffer as the lead in that film and under the name "Selina" and not "Patience" and it still would have been awful. Don't blame a movies failure on the actress and her ethnicity because Halle Berry is a good actress when she has a good script to work from.


I'm not blaming the failure of the film for that.  I'm saying that might be what the studio is thinking.




> Here to express my amusement on how once the Catwoman role is up for grabs, actresses come out of the wood work wanting to snatch it, lol.


This is nothing as compared to when Catwoman was announced to be in Batman Returns. Sean Young made a lot of news with her crazy antics, but Valerie Harper was also another one that 
was making a lot of noise about wanting the role. And there was a lot of hate when Anne Hathaway was cast in The Dark Knight Rises, though I don't really recall a lot of actors vying for that role.  
Actually the first I even heard about Catwoman being in TDKR was when they cast Hathaway.

----------


## vitaminbee

> I'm not blaming the failure of the film for that.  I'm saying that might be what the studio is thinking.


Yeah but it's your theory about the studio picking a caucasian actress over any other one and not theirs. When in fact the studio did pick Zoe Kravitz to voice her in the Lego Batman movie, which kind of breaks your theory.

----------


## LimeBright

> This is nothing as compared to when Catwoman was announced to be in Batman Returns. Sean Young made a lot of news with her crazy antics, but Valerie Harper was also another one that 
> was making a lot of noise about wanting the role. And there was a lot of hate when Anne Hathaway was cast in The Dark Knight Rises, though I don't really recall a lot of actors vying for that role.  
> Actually the first I even heard about Catwoman being in TDKR was when they cast Hathaway.


From what I read back then, a couple of actresses tried out and auditioned, well known names too that escape me since it was so long ago. Yet Nolan chose Anne. They didn't make noise though.

----------


## Atlanta96

> From what I read back then, a couple of actresses tried out and auditioned, well known names too that escape me since it was so long ago. Yet Nolan chose Anne. They didn't make noise though.


I recall Naomi Watts, Rachel Weisz, Rachel McAdams, and Keira Knightley being on the shortlist. At the time Anne was my last choice out of those actresses but I like how her Catwoman turned out. I wonder how those other ladies would've done.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Here to express my amusement on how once the Catwoman role is up for grabs, actresses come out of the wood work wanting to snatch it, lol.


No one will come close to Sean Young though, whose legendary attempts inspired a hilarious Tiny Toons take  :Stick Out Tongue:  




(Starts around 3:37 mark)

----------


## Huntsman1117

Catwoman looks pretty good in *DC Legends*. 

20170213_134557.jpg

Screenshot_20170213-134426.jpg

Screenshot_20170210-192824.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Lego Selina is ADORABLE  Love seeing color re-introduced into the modern design.  I thought she was holding up a martini glass for a sec on the cycle - Selina drinking a COSMO?!??


I like it. I see purple is sort of making a comeback for Catwoman.

----------


## MosSuperman

Catwoman is back in Injustice 2.

----------


## Frontier

It's nice to hear Grey Griffin as Selina again, and already her intro's sound like they'll be very playful and fun  :Smile: .

That random motorcycle though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

And anyone not happy with her look or costume should be aware that it's probably going to be very customizable  :Wink: .

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I love Grey Griffin's Catwoman but I do hope they touch up her face like they did some of the others.

----------


## 16 Bit

She's back  :Smile:

----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm so happy that Catwoman is back in _Injustice 2_. She looks much better than she did before. I'm glad Ivy is in it too.

----------


## Huntsman1117

This woman looks just like Catwoman has traditionally been drawn in comics.

dolce-gabbana-fw-2013-collection-women-mediterranean-28.jpg

----------


## zebracross

I'm happy to see that lately there have been more Catwoman in comics and games, compared to the past years. Hope she'll appear soon in motion pictures with an important role -- unlike Lego Batman where she's just one of the villains.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

I'd Prefer A New Catwoman Series to What's going on with Harley Quinn

Random Goofy Books you just turn your brain off to enjoy because there's no thinking involved...aren't my cup of tea

----------


## zebracross

> I'd Prefer A New Catwoman Series to What's going on with Harley Quinn
> 
> Random Goofy Books you just turn your brain off to enjoy because there's no thinking involved...aren't my cup of tea


Can't agree more with you!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I'm happy to see that lately there have been more Catwoman in comics and games, compared to the past years. Hope she'll appear soon in motion pictures with an important role -- unlike Lego Batman where she's just one of the villains.


Crossing my fingers for Gotham City Sirens getting made.  And of course they don't forget to put Catwoman in it.  Is it really Gotham City Sirens without Catwoman?

----------


## vitaminbee

A Catwoman drawing from Tumblr. Looks like she's adapting to a snow covered Gotham City.

----------


## Frontier

> A Catwoman drawing from Tumblr. Looks like she's adapting to a snow covered Gotham City.


Not a bad looking winter coat  :Wink: .

----------


## MosSuperman



----------


## BatGlamorous

^^^More purple! Jim Balent's design ftw.




> Crossing my fingers for Gotham City Sirens getting made.  And of course they don't forget to put Catwoman in it.  Is it really Gotham City Sirens without Catwoman?


It's absolutely going to happen, to sell movie tickets if nothing else. I bet they're going to call it "Harley and the GSS" like they've done with BOP though. That roadtrip one-shot from a while back was really well done, I wouldn't be mad if the future GSS book keeps the same tone. They could even market it as the Sirens taking an endless roadtrip around the DCU, which would be cool. It would certainly be refreshing to see Selina get some distance from Bruce for a while.

----------


## LimeBright

> Crossing my fingers for Gotham City Sirens getting made.  And of course they don't forget to put Catwoman in it.  Is it really Gotham City Sirens without Catwoman?


They have to. Especially if they are using Black Mask, which was tied to _her_ story. Let's hope they don't trade it off just to give Harley a story.

I'm just curious who they are going to get as Catwoman. I don't know why people are so focused on the age of the actresses as if those were the actual ages of the characters. Unless the director says that the characters follow the ages of the actresses, then there's no issue. Harley, despite Margot being 26-27, should realistically be in her 30s. More so if she was present in Jason's death.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Catwoman turned Bane's "I AM BANE" proclamation around to "I AM CAT" in _Batman_ #18, and I am loving it.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Catwoman turned Bane's "I AM BANE" proclamation around to "I AM CAT" in _Batman_ #18, and I am loving it.


Maybe that's why Tom King's Batman keeps referring to her as "Cat". Because "Catwoman" is too much to carve onto one guy's chest.

----------


## Frontier

> Maybe that's why Tom King's Batman keeps referring to her as "Cat". Because "Catwoman" is too much to carve onto one guy's chest.


That...honestly struck my mind when I saw that scene  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Huntsman1117

> 


Love it. I just hate that it's pretty impossible to upgrade Catwoman on this game without spending over $20. Still, she looks good in this game; both the 90's costume and the unique modern look.

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## Huntsman1117

> Not a bad looking winter coat .


Looks pretty good. It would be better without the goggles.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> 


This is what Catwoman should look like in Gotham City Sirens.  Enough with the boring black costumes.  Embrace the colorful.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> This is what Catwoman should look like in Gotham City Sirens.  Enough with the boring black costumes.  Embrace the colorful.


I'd be on board with that.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I'd be on board with that.


Working the purple.  (Batman Rebirth #18) Just hoping with Catwoman now showing up a lot in Batman we finally get a Catwoman series.

Batman (2016-) 018-020.jpg

----------


## LimeBright

> This is what Catwoman should look like in Gotham City Sirens.  Enough with the boring black costumes.  Embrace the colorful.


I wholeheartedly agree. Before, we even had discussion about her going back to purple (including growing out her hair again). Her current outfit has gotten stale, and if she's going to be in Gotham City Sirens, she'll need her own color mark to obviously go along with Ivy's green and Harley's red. It'll be great and will garner more girls to dress in costumes as a trio.

A trifecta team has always been popular (especially the chromatic arrangement - red/blue/green, elemental - fire/water/earth, and Freudian - id/ego,/superego).

I wonder if Ivy and Selina's outfits are going to be Suicide Squad-ed.

----------


## darkseidpwns

The Cooke costume is very popular among the non die hards. They think its practical and with the amount of exposure its gotten I think its here to stay.

----------


## LimeBright

"Popular among the non die hards". The statistic for that is where?

Boots are just as stupid as heels due to the heavy footedness, btw. It does nothing about her stealth in her _main_ profession as a cat burglar. Practical my ass.

I would also add, that her purple hue theme has been cropping more and more lately in other DC media, for some reason or other. DC Legends and LEGO Batman come to mind.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I wonder if Cat will end up pregnant with a baby by Bat in _Batman_. She could recruit Holly to take over as Catwoman (again, as in pre-52). Selina has already trained her to be a stealthy expert martial artist, a skill Holly used to silently & effectively kill 237 terrorists. She would almost reek of Huntress & Damian Wayne angst and violence...unless she were to be handled differently.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> "Popular among the non die hards". The statistic for that is where?
> 
> Boots are just as stupid as heels due to the heavy footedness, btw. It does nothing about her stealth in her _main_ profession as a cat burglar. Practical my ass.
> 
> I would also add, that her purple hue theme has been cropping more and more lately in other DC media, for some reason or other. DC Legends and LEGO Batman come to mind.


Hey I find the costume incredibly boring too but from what I've seen among casuals they like the Cooke suit. They think the old purple suits are stupid, impractical, over sexualized and unprofessional. DC keeps it for a reason even though I'd prefer the longer hair and a different costume but its what it is. That suit made it to the Arkham Games and a variation of it to Tell tale, people DID like those games and Selina in them. Its all a package deal, they liked Selina in them so they'll associate the suit with something they like. Comicwise it was part of Brubakers run which seems to be the most acclaimed and recommended, Cooke is a legend, Balent not so much. I actually like him btw.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I wonder if Cat will end up pregnant with a baby by Bat in _Batman_. She could recruit Holly to take over as Catwoman (again, as in pre-52). Selina has already trained her to be a stealthy expert martial artist, a skill Holly used to silently & effectively kill 237 terrorists. She would almost reek of Huntress & Damian Wayne angst and violence...unless she were to be handled differently.


I dont see her growing up to be anything, it would age Batman. Unless she already exists for a long time and was hidden from Batman in which case she'll already be on a backfooting compared to Damian as that is part of his backstory.

----------


## Frontier

I still feel like there's a good balance that can be had between a more colorful Catwoman costume and the Cooke Catsuit. 

Though, Ayer being Ayer, I wonder if we're going to get a _very_ stylistic variant of the Cooke suit....

----------


## vitaminbee

Boots are still more practical than heels. Especially when you can get boots that vary in sound/weight. Heels should only be used by a cat burglar when they leave the party to go into the other room to steal a necklace in a safe. Any other time, it seems like a risk. 




> Working the purple.  (Batman Rebirth #18) Just hoping with Catwoman now showing up a lot in Batman we finally get a Catwoman series.
> 
> Attachment 46485


You do realize that purple is actually just the lighting and reflection, right? It's a black/dark suit that is highlighted by whatever color the scene is set in.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> You do realize that purple is actually just the lighting and reflection, right? It's a black/dark suit that is highlighted by whatever color the scene is set in.


Obviously.  But I found it interesting the scene was in shades of purple instead of blue, grey, or some other color associated with a dimly lit room.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I don't see why Catwoman wearing heels is such an issue. No superhero costume is practical, and they're supposed to look larger than life. If she dressed the way she should to be practical in the real world, it would be really boring.

----------


## Frontier

Even if she did have heels, it would probably be inconsistent between artists anyways  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## vitaminbee

> Obviously.  But I found it interesting the scene was in shades of purple instead of blue, grey, or some other color associated with a dimly lit room.


But that's because the sky goes purple/blue when lightning strikes...

----------


## darkseidpwns

Just came across a Graham Nolan and Chuck Dixon podcast. Nolan confirmed that Catwoman will appear in some issues of Bane: Conquest. Dixon said they needed a female character to flummox Bane and that Catwoman will serve that role.

----------


## Frontier

> Just came across a Graham Nolan and Chuck Dixon podcast. Nolan confirmed that Catwoman will appear in some issues of Bane: Conquest. Dixon said they needed a female character to flummox Bane and that Catwoman will serve that role.


Not surprised. Nobody flummoxes Bane like Catwoman does  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Caivu

> I don't see why Catwoman wearing heels is such an issue.


Because it looks really damn stupid. They're there only to look sexy.

The only time I've ever seen them be even slightly practical was in TDKR.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Not surprised. Nobody flummoxes Bane like Catwoman does .


There's Black Canary too lol but while he may have a shy teenage boy mentality towards women he's still a dangerous person who tends to hold grudges. Cat shouldn't provoke this guy too much it didn't end well for Talia when she started bad mouthing him.

----------


## Frontier

> Because it looks really damn stupid. *They're there only to look sexy.*
> 
> The only time I've ever seen them be even slightly practical was in TDKR.


Well, given who we're talking about  :Wink: ...

This being comics, whether something looks stupid or not would probably depend a lot on the artist (and, obviously, personal taste) and the visual they're trying to go for. And I don't think it would be anymore of a leap for Selina then any of her classic costumes.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Because it looks really damn stupid. They're there only to look sexy.
> 
> The only time I've ever seen them be even slightly practical was in TDKR.


Most elements of superhero costumes are only here for aesthetic reasons. What practical purpose does Superman's cape or Wolverine's pointy mask serve, for example?

And Catwoman should look sexy. They tried the toned down Tumblr approved Selina Kyle and it didn't work. Fans expect Selina to look/act a certain way and changing that just leads to a dead end.

----------


## Caivu

> And Catwoman should look sexy. They tried the toned down Tumblr approved Selina Kyle and it didn't work. Fans expect Selina to look/act a certain way and changing that just leads to a dead end.


If heels were the only way for a woman to look sexy, you might have a point.

----------


## Atlanta96

> If heels were the only way for a woman to look sexy, you might have a point.


And if Catwoman was intended to be a practically dressed character, you might have a point.

----------


## Caivu

> Well, given who we're talking about ...
> 
> This being comics, whether something looks stupid or not would probably depend a lot on the artist (and, obviously, personal taste) and the visual they're trying to go for. And I don't think it would be anymore of a leap for Selina then any of her classic costumes.


I don't mean they look bad, full stop, or that it has anything to do with the artists. But running and basically doing parkour in heels is dumb, because I know what that can do to people's knees and ankles, and it's not good. I can't buy it. "Being sexy" is not a good enough reason, because there are plenty of other ways to accomplish that. I mean, she's an athletic woman who dresses in skintight leather FFS. That's not enough?

----------


## Caivu

> And if Catwoman was intended to be a practically dressed character, you might have a point.


Last time I checked, she was, so... not sure what you mean.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't mean they look bad, full stop, or that it has anything to do with the artists. But running and basically doing parkour in heels is dumb, because I know what that can do to people's knees and ankles, and it's not good. I can't buy it. "Being sexy" is not a good enough reason, because there are plenty of other ways to accomplish that. I mean, she's an athletic woman who dresses in skintight leather FFS. That's not enough?


I'm not saying it isn't, but I just don't think it would be out-of-character or off-putting to see her sporting them in-costume given the kind of character she is and that she lives in a Superhero universe. 

Though I can understand if it's just too much for you to suspend your disbelief, given the experiences you allude to here. 



> Last time I checked, she was, so... not sure what you mean.


Well when one of her first cotumes featured a dress and cape, it's kind of hard to argue that she was originally intended to look practical  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Now she _has_ had practical redesigns  :Smile: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> Last time I checked, she was, so... not sure what you mean.


If she's meant to be practical then A. Why does she use a whip? B. Why does she wear skintight leather that would obstruct her movement? And C. Why the mask that a combatant could twist around and obstruct her vision?
IMG_9379.JPG

----------


## phonogram12

> I don't mean they look bad, full stop, or that it has anything to do with the artists. But running and basically doing parkour in heels is dumb, because I know what that can do to people's knees and ankles, and it's not good. I can't buy it. "Being sexy" is not a good enough reason, because there are plenty of other ways to accomplish that. I mean, she's an athletic woman who dresses in skintight leather FFS. That's not enough?


Agreed. For women who don't jump from rooftop to rooftop at all hours of the night or posses some sort of superhuman powers where an injury like this wouldn't be an issue, go nuts with the heels, IMHO (Zatanna, Viper, etc.). But yeah, for Batgirl, Selina, etc., footwear like that just sounds like a terrible idea.

----------


## Caivu

> If she's meant to be practical then A. Why does she use a whip? B. Why does she wear skintight leather that would obstruct her movement? And C. Why the mask that a combatant could twist around and obstruct her vision?
> IMG_9379.JPG


None of those things are necessarily detriments, though. She's good with a whip, and it has uses other than as a weapon. Her suit doesn't necessarily have to be leather, but even if it is, so? I've worn such suits for Halloween before and they're not all that restrictive. And her mask is almost always some type of hood, right? Not seperate from the rest of her suit, at least how I've seen it. Again, I know from experience that masks like that aren't easily twisted.

----------


## Atlanta96

> None of those things are necessarily detriments, though. She's good with a whip, and it has uses other than as a weapon. Her suit doesn't necessarily have to be leather, but even if it is, so? I've worn such suits for Halloween before and they're not all that restrictive. And her mask is almost always some type of hood, right? Not seperate from the rest of her suit, at least how I've seen it. Again, I know from experience that masks like that aren't easily twisted.


I don't suppose you've ever been in a fight while dressed like that, have you?  :Smile: 

There's a good reason they ditched the whip for TDKR, a cat burglar has no reason to use one. It's not a logical weapon for someone like Selina, the whip is there to add to the cat motif. Realistically she'd use a gun, or if she was dedicated to non-lethal force then some form of widely used non-lethal weaponry.

----------


## Frontier

This reminds me, given the impractical heels Harley was sporting throughout Suicide Squad, I'm once again _very_ curious to see how they'll handle her costume in _Gotham City Sirens_...

----------


## Atlanta96

> This reminds me, given the impractical heels Harley was sporting throughout Suicide Squad, I'm once again _very_ curious to see how they'll handle her costume in _Gotham City Sirens_...


A big budget version of this would be nice.

IMG_9380.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> I don't suppose you've ever been in a fight while dressed like that, have you?


I have not, but the point is that range of motion isn't significantly compromised, and masks like hers are easier to remove than twist.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I have not, but the point is that range of motion isn't significantly compromised, and masks like hers are easier to remove than twist.


It is separate from the rest of her costume, almost all drawings depict it that way.

IMG_9381.jpg
IMG_9382.JPG

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Practical is boring. Heels make her look badass and sexy

----------


## Frontier

> It is separate from the rest of her costume, almost all drawings depict it that way.
> 
> IMG_9381.jpg
> IMG_9382.JPG


I feel like that's been inconsistent depending on the artist, because I could swear there have been times when it's been depicted as part of the whole costume.

----------


## Londo Bellian

It's about as consistent as Captain America's mask being a separate helmet from his suit orattached to it at the back.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> There's Black Canary too lol but while he may have a shy teenage boy mentality towards women he's still a dangerous person who tends to hold grudges. Cat shouldn't provoke this guy too much it didn't end well for Talia when she started bad mouthing him.


Oh, as of the current _Batman_ storyline, Bane is REALLY pissed at Catwoman. She broke his back when he was off Venom while pretending to help him break the Bat. Then she fooled him again, tied up his accomplices in a way that mocked his own method, and insulted him over the phone just to get him really mad.  It was great! :-D

----------


## Huntsman1117

> just came across a graham nolan and chuck dixon podcast. Nolan confirmed that catwoman will appear in some issues of bane: Conquest. Dixon said they needed a female character to flummox bane and that catwoman will serve that role.


AWESOME! :-D  I'm really looking forward to this!

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Well, given who we're talking about ...
> 
> This being comics, whether something looks stupid or not would probably depend a lot on the artist (and, obviously, personal taste) and the visual they're trying to go for. And I don't think it would be anymore of a leap for Selina then any of her classic costumes.


Exactly. There is always something a little ridiculous or impractical, or unattractive, about all of Catwoman's costumes throughout her history; high heels, a dress & cape; a bullwhip as a primary weapon; goggles that shatter & obstruct her peripheral vision (and make her look like an insect or an alien; retractible claws (how does that work?)
I hate seeing her in heavy work boots. They subtract from her feminine grace and beauty. Although her body was exaggerated heavily, Jim Balent's Catwoman had the nimble, lightweight look of a gymnast, ballerina, and sometimes a ninja (whom she was trained by). That's what I prefer.
Catwoman was created to both add sex appeal to Batman comics, and to interest girls as well. That's what she needs to continue to be.  If you ask most people out there, they'd likely tell you that they want to see Catwoman in heels. People want to believe that characters like Catwoman can do all these things in heels. Just like they want to believe that they can do all these things dressed in colorful spandex and long capes. It's a fantasy. And sometimes we as comic fanatics sometimes take these fantasies too seriously. It's best just to go with it.

----------


## vitaminbee

> A big budget version of this would be nice.
> 
> Attachment 47075


No.. please we don't need that. Adapt Darwyn Cooke's look and you have a good look for the screen. The photo above is just bad.




> Exactly. There is always something a little ridiculous or impractical, or unattractive, about all of Catwoman's costumes throughout her history; high heels, a dress & cape; a bullwhip as a primary weapon; goggles that shatter & obstruct her peripheral vision (and make her look like an insect or an alien; retractible claws (how does that work?)
> I hate seeing her in heavy work boots. They subtract from her feminine grace and beauty. Although her body was exaggerated heavily, Jim Balent's Catwoman had the nimble, lightweight look of a gymnast, ballerina, and sometimes a ninja (whom she was trained by). That's what I prefer.
> Catwoman was created to both add sex appeal to Batman comics, and to interest girls as well. That's what she needs to continue to be.  If you ask most people out there, they'd likely tell you that they want to see Catwoman in heels. People want to believe that characters like Catwoman can do all these things in heels. Just like they want to believe that they can do all these things dressed in colorful spandex and long capes. It's a fantasy. And sometimes we as comic fanatics sometimes take these fantasies too seriously. It's best just to go with it.


 You are literally describing what a straight male reader would like their Catwoman to be. You do realize that a sexy female character doesn't make girls want to read comics, right? Look at the Batgirl comic that Stewart and Tarr did. That made so many girls /women interested in comics. As for some of the stuff, boots aren't heavy, they are more practical. If you think they are too loud, have you never heard stilettos? They are probably louder than boots.  The skin tight suit is enough to keep the sex appeal without going overboard.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Well if its any consolation the guy talking to Dixon and Nolan indirectly begged them to not mess it up. That person was openly critical of what Catwoman has been through in the last few years.
I dont think the Cooke costume is going anywhere tbh, DC and the general crowd believe its sexy enough and also allows her to be taken seriously. Now the comics do need to change the nature and direction of her stories. Enough with serious and gritty crime and tragedy and torture and Black Mask. Focus on heists and adventure and light hearted stuff.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Oh, as of the current _Batman_ storyline, Bane is REALLY pissed at Catwoman. She broke his back when he was off Venom while pretending to help him break the Bat. Then she fooled him again, tied up his accomplices in a way that mocked his own method, and insulted him over the phone just to get him really mad.  It was great! :-D


He isn't pissed at her imo, more at Batman. It was amusing I'll admit but I hope this doesn't make a trend.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No.. please we don't need that. Adapt Darwyn Cooke's look and you have a good look for the screen. The photo above is just bad.
> 
> 
> 
>  You are literally describing what a straight male reader would like their Catwoman to be. You do realize that a sexy female character doesn't make girls want to read comics, right? Look at the Batgirl comic that Stewart and Tarr did. That made so many girls /women interested in comics. As for some of the stuff, boots aren't heavy, they are more practical. If you think they are too loud, have you never heard stilettos? They are probably louder than boots.  The skin tight suit is enough to keep the sex appeal without going overboard.


Except that sexy female characters do have a large female fanbase https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...e-turnout/amp/ 

And there's several female writers/artists in the industry who work on cheesecake books, so maybe don't lump an entire gender into a single mindset. If you'd look into the cosplay/fan art communities for comics and gaming you'd find that girls preferences are more varied than you think. Not every woman is a radical feminist who thinks fanservice is evil.

We've already seen the Darwyn Cooke suit in TDKR, let's see something new.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Except that sexy female characters do have a large female fanbase https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...e-turnout/amp/ 
> 
> And there's several female writers/artists in the industry who work on cheesecake books, so maybe don't lump an entire gender into a single mindset. If you'd look into the cosplay/fan art communities for comics and gaming you'd find that girls preferences are more varied than you think. Not every woman is a radical feminist who thinks fanservice is evil.
> 
> We've already seen the Darwyn Cooke suit in TDKR, let's see something new.


TDKR suit was closer to Newmar suit, in any event it was nothing like Cooke suit.

----------


## Atlanta96

> TDKR suit was closer to Newmar suit, in any event it was nothing like Cooke suit.


Aside from the mask, they're pretty similar.

IMG_9387.JPG
IMG_9388.jpg

----------


## darkseidpwns

I have to admit that from my observations it is mostly the adult males who're more interested in covering her up and wanting her to be taken seriously.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I have to admit that from my observations it is mostly the adult males who're more interested in covering her up and wanting her to be taken seriously.


We're a strange species.

https://twitter.com/hackintimseeley/...95955292028928

----------


## vitaminbee

> Except that sexy female characters do have a large female fanbase https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...e-turnout/amp/ 
> 
> And there's several female writers/artists in the industry who work on cheesecake books, so maybe don't lump an entire gender into a single mindset. If you'd look into the cosplay/fan art communities for comics and gaming you'd find that girls preferences are more varied than you think. Not every woman is a radical feminist who thinks fanservice is evil.
> 
> We've already seen the Darwyn Cooke suit in TDKR, let's see something new.


That was a modern Julie Newmar look in TDKR. It wasn't the Cooke outfit, as it also had heels where his did not  :Wink:  

As for the rest, it's just nice when a character is treated with some respect. Did I lump a group together? Possibly, but I also think that it'd be nice to try and balance things out a bit. Which is why I brought up Batgirl and how it brought several new people to comics who might not have read them. I hate seeing Catwoman on every cover with her cat suit zipped down to show cleavage. It makes no sense, as a cat burglar and doesn't even seem to be "in character". Especially when a catsuit is already a "sexy" thing.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Aside from the mask, they're pretty similar.
> 
> IMG_9387.JPG
> IMG_9388.jpg


The only similarity I see is colour. You do realize Selina wore black suits before Cooke right? In any event Newmar is the obvious influence not Cooke. Bale and Nolan are fans of that show and it does have a reputation for inspiration.

----------


## Atlanta96

> That was a modern Julie Newmar look in TDKR. It wasn't the Cooke outfit, as it also had heels where his did not  
> 
> As for the rest, it's just nice when a character is treated with some respect. Did I lump a group together? Possibly, but I also think that it'd be nice to try and balance things out a bit. Which is why I brought up Batgirl and how it brought several new people to comics who might not have read them. I hate seeing Catwoman on every cover with her cat suit zipped down to show cleavage. It makes no sense, as a cat burglar and doesn't even seem to be "in character". Especially when a catsuit is already a "sexy" thing.


Burnside Batgirl wasn't actually that successful. I'm aware that the first trade was a NYT bestseller but after that, interest quickly faded. It was a flash in the pan. By January 2016 these were the single issue sales.

IMG_9389.jpg

I think Simone's Batgirl run had better long term success so that might have been a better example. Catwoman sold quite a bit better when she was allowed to be risqué and have over the top sexuality as opposed to being "safe" and toned down. So like it or not, that's the most healthy direction for the character. It's not disrespectful, they just want people to read the book.

----------


## vitaminbee

> The only similarity I see is colour. You do realize Selina wore black suits before Cooke right? In any event Newmar is the obvious influence not Cooke. Bale and Nolan are fans of that show and it does have a reputation for inspiration.


Yeah. The thigh high boots/long gloves are ripped from the Tim Sale/Jim Balent Purple Catwoman look, the mask/ears from the Julie Newmar Batman 66 show, and the "goggles" from the Cooke look, though that's a stretch as they dont look anything like the ones in the comic. If you want to include the zipper showing, that is also a nod to the Cooke outfit.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The only similarity I see is colour. You do realize Selina wore black suits before Cooke right? In any event Newmar is the obvious influence not Cooke. Bale and Nolan are fans of that show and it does have a reputation for inspiration.


All 3 suits are similar, but the Hathaway suit reminds me more of the Cooke suit because of the more professional design. Newmar was clearly done on a '60s TV budget, the other suits look more realistic and comparatively more functional.

They're the same basic design so I'm just splitting hairs I guess.

----------


## vitaminbee

> All 3 suits are similar, but the Hathaway suit reminds me more of the Cooke suit because of the more professional design. Newmar was clearly done on a '60s TV budget, the other suits look more realistic and comparatively more functional.
> 
> They're the same basic design so I'm just splitting hairs I guess.


If you put Anne's look next to any of the ones mentioned, the average person would say it resembled Julie Newmar's look the most. That's the thing with Catwoman's look, it's been designed down to the "staple" look. From her introduction many many years ago, till around Batman Returns, she had some interesting looks. Most of them fell into the color scheme range of black, purple and green. There was that odd Blue one in the late 60's...

----------


## Huntsman1117

> No.. please we don't need that. Adapt Darwyn Cooke's look and you have a good look for the screen. The photo above is just bad.
> 
> 
> 
>  You are literally describing what a straight male reader would like their Catwoman to be. You do realize that a sexy female character doesn't make girls want to read comics, right? Look at the Batgirl comic that Stewart and Tarr did. That made so many girls /women interested in comics. As for some of the stuff, boots aren't heavy, they are more practical. If you think they are too loud, have you never heard stilettos? They are probably louder than boots.  The skin tight suit is enough to keep the sex appeal without going overboard.


When I said Catwoman was created to add both sex appeal, and to get girls interested in the comics, I was basically quoting Bob Kane. She was meant to be a sex symbol. She is supposed to be feminine and sexy. You can't take that away from her.

I'm gay. Most of my friends are either gay men or hetero females (or something in between). But I have a lot of straight male friends too. All of them know I'm a huge Catwoman fan. I talk about her a good bit. Everyone I've talked to says they don't like her in work boots, and most dislike the goggles as well. I dont give people my opinion of Catwoman until I ask them first, so that I don't sway their initial thoughts. So, it's not just straight males that dislike the work boots, and it's not just straight males that prefer her in heels. From what I've gathered from many other people, most people prefer heels.

When the new Batgirl design by Cam Stewart came out, I posted the image on Facebook. It got nothing but negative comments. And I saw recently that Batgirl's current titles are not selling near as well as everyone else's. So you can't say Batgirl's work boots are doing her any favors either. If Batgirl's new utilitarian look is attracting women, it's a small group of women. And Batgirl isn't really supposed to be seductively sexy anyway. That's not what she's out to accomplish in life; whereas Catwoman uses her sexiness as a weapon.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I myself would prefer neither stilettos nor work boots, but soft soles like she wore in 90's. These also work just fine for everyone else including similar characters like Black Cat, Black Widow, Psylocke, Elektra, etc. They don't need work boots. Why should Catwoman. They are almost more active than she is. Hell, Psylocke jump kicks robots in the head without work boots, and no one complains.

----------


## Atlanta96

I liked her shoes from Arkham City. They had stiletto heels, but they were a moderate length and not distractingly long like some other heels I've seen. Have I mentioned that I really like the Arkham Games design yet?  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> When I said Catwoman was created to add both sex appeal, and to get girls interested in the comics, I was basically quoting Bob Kane. She was meant to be a sex symbol. She is supposed to be feminine and sexy. You can't take that away from her.
> 
> I'm gay. Most of my friends are either gay men or hetero females (or something in between). But I have a lot of straight male friends too. All of them know I'm a huge Catwoman fan. I talk about her a good bit. Everyone I've talked to says they don't like her in work boots, and most dislike the goggles as well. I dont give people my opinion of Catwoman until I ask them first, so that I don't sway their initial thoughts. So, it's not just straight males that dislike the work boots, and it's not just straight males that prefer her in heels. From what I've gathered from many other people, most people prefer heels.
> 
> When the new Batgirl design by Cam Stewart came out, I posted the image on Facebook. It got nothing but negative comments. And I saw recently that Batgirl's current titles are not selling near as well as everyone else's. So you can't say Batgirl's work boots are doing her any favors either. If Batgirl's new utilitarian look is attracting women, it's a small group of women. And Batgirl isn't really supposed to be seductively sexy anyway. That's not what she's out to accomplish in life; whereas Catwoman uses her sexiness as a weapon.


I remember when I brought some of my (early) New 52 comics to high school in 10th grade, and the one my female friends were most interested in was Guillem March's Catwoman. Out of the 4 girls who saw it only one complained about it being over-sexualized, and she was the one who thought Aquaman was part fish and Spider-Man's webs had no useful applications so, yeah.

A few weeks later another friend brought in some freaking Balent era Catwoman stuff, and again, the girls didn't hate it. I think most readers are fine with sexualized content in media until they start hearing that it's evil and objectifying and degrading. It's not the default belief for most people.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Exactly. I mean, this is Catwoman we're talking about here. The original Feline Femme Fatale. She's supposed to have a tremendous sexuality about her that is both feminine and cat-like. I'm all about feminism and women's rights. But if a person has a feline feminine sexiness to them, and they own it, and are proud of it, there's nothing wrong with that. Catwoman owns it. It's a big part of who she is. She shouldn't have to be masculinized, de-sexualized, and made to look more utilitarian to appease people who look down on her sex appeal. If you don't like seeing seductive women like Catwoman sexualized in comics, then maybe you shouldn't read comics because these women are prevalent.

----------


## Atlanta96

90s Catwoman was so badass

IMG_9464.jpg
IMG_9465.jpg

It's sad that her character is so toned down nowadays, they tried to intensify her with the Winick run but that didn't work out and backfired.

----------


## LimeBright

As a straight woman, I would love Selina back with longer hair^.

Heels I can do with or without, I like Balent's depiction more. It's the most sensible for a thief than _both_ the heels and work boots.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if long hair could still work with the current look...

Telltale!Catwoman had long(ish) hair, though she wore it in a ponytail 90% of the time and I'm assuming while she was in-costume.

----------


## vitaminbee

I'm curious, why did people get so mad with Nolan and his choice to have his Catwoman with her hair out and but don't get mad with Balent's look? It still leads to the same issue, DNA left behind while trying to steal something. Realism is not a reason to hate the former and applaud the latter as both universes use that sort of stuff to solve crime.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm curious, why did people get so mad with Nolan and his choice to have his Catwoman with her hair out and but don't get mad with Balent's look? It still leads to the same issue, DNA left behind while trying to steal something. Realism is not a reason to hate the former and applaud the latter as both universes use that sort of stuff to solve crime.


Because unlike Balent's run, the Nolan films were intended to be realistic. Comparatively realistic, that is. 90s Catwoman threw practicality to the wind and gave us purple spandex, long flowing hair, and giant knockers with zero support. It was over the top and stylized, Anne Hathaway's Selina Kyle wasn't.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Because unlike Balent's run, the Nolan films were intended to be realistic. Comparatively realistic, that is. 90s Catwoman threw practicality to the wind and gave us purple spandex, long flowing hair, and giant knockers with zero support. It was over the top and stylized, Anne Hathaway's Selina Kyle wasn't.


Agreed. I always thought realism was a key factor in Nolan's movies. Hathaway's "Catwoman" costume was anything but that.
Jim Balent's Catwoman was a throwback to her Silver Age  + a nod to Michelle Pfeiffer's sleek, glossy black catsuit, and drawn with a body shape similar to Jim Lee's X-Men. It was never supposed to be realistic. It was existing in a time when Jim Lee's X-Men inspired everything.

----------


## MosSuperman



----------


## SneakyLookingSort

She looks so different with brown eyes.

----------


## Caivu

BATGIRL-AND-THE-BOP-12.jpg

Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
Art by ROGE ANTONIO
Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA

*Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.

“SOURCE CODE” part two! Oracle crossed half the criminal underworld in his early years—and now, he’s caused a black cat to cross the Birds of Prey’s path! Catwoman’s been waiting for a chance to get her claws on this guy for a while…but at this point, do the Birds even want to stand in her way?

32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T
On sale JULY 12

BATGIRL-13.jpg

Written by HOPE LARSON
Art by CHRIS WILDGOOSE
Cover by DAN MORA
Variant cover by JOSHUA MIDDLETON

*Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.

“BATS AND CATS”! When an innocent bystander close to Batgirl’s heart gets caught in between a feud between herself and Catwoman, what started as just another case could become direly important.

32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T
On sale JULY 26

----------


## Frontier

Two Catwoman appearances in one month and in two-separate Batfamily books? I wonder if it means something...

And I guess we're back to her zipper being down on covers  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Looking forward to seeing the Benson's writer Selina. I am all for her going after the new Oracle  :Smile: .

It'll also be interesting to see her bounce off the other Birds and Batgirl. She hasn't had much interaction with the extended Batfamily as of late.

----------


## Caivu

I'm wondering if the "feud" between Selina and Babs will come from BBoP, or if it goes back to late in Selina's New 52 series when Babs tried to capture her and they fought. Either one would be a nice bit of continuity-nodding.

----------


## Punisher007

> Two Catwoman appearances in one month and in two-separate Batfamily books? I wonder if it means something...
> 
> *And I guess we're back to her zipper being down on covers .
> 
> *Looking forward to seeing the Benson's writer Selina. I am all for her going after the new Oracle .
> 
> It'll also be interesting to see her bounce off the other Birds and Batgirl. She hasn't had much interaction with the extended Batfamily as of late.


As a Black Widow fan, I know about this all too well. It's really irritating.

----------


## Agent Z

Between the zipper and the language of the solicit, it sounds like DC has Selina confused with the other leather clad cat burglar

----------


## Frontier

> Between the zipper and the language of the solicit, it sounds like DC has Selina confused with the other leather clad cat burglar


Well, it's not like Selina doesn't also have a history of wearing her zipper down for extended periods of time  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though these solicits do paint her in a more antagonistic role then you'd expect from her by now. I wonder if that has something to do for her still being wanted for the deaths of those terrorists? 

I'm curious if Batman informed the rest of the family that Selina isn't responsible for all those murders yet or if they're still under the impression she's a wanted criminal...which I imagine would give Babs plenty of reason to go after her.

----------


## Punisher007

Bruce would be kind of a jerk (shocking I know) if he didn't tell the others the truth.  Oh and an idiot as well.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> 


Pretty awesome. She looks much better here than in the first game. I like her new moves too. Too bad I don't have an extra $300 for a PS4 nor $100 for Injustice 2.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> BATGIRL-AND-THE-BOP-12.jpg
> 
> Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
> Art by ROGE ANTONIO
> Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
> Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
> 
> *Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> 
> ...


This makes me happy. I'm glad DC is trying to get people interested in Catwoman again by having her guest-star in a few different titles this year.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Well, it's not like Selina doesn't also have a history of wearing her zipper down for extended periods of time .
> 
> Though these solicits do paint her in a more antagonistic role then you'd expect from her by now. I wonder if that has something to do for her still being wanted for the deaths of those terrorists? 
> 
> I'm curious if Batman informed the rest of the family that Selina isn't responsible for all those murders yet or if they're still under the impression she's a wanted criminal...which I imagine would give Babs plenty of reason to go after her.


We never actually saw Catwoman tell a conscious Batman the truth about the terrorists and Holly. I think Catwoman should remain one of the world's most wanted criminals - guilty or not. It's more exciting that way.

----------


## areuyellingatmee

Does anyone know if Catwoman will be getting another chance at a solo? Or why she doesn't have one? It's usually the only title I buy but I feel off once the 52 started.

----------


## Punisher007

If/when they get around to making that GCS film (which will almost certainly have Catwoman in it), I could definitely see them giving her a new solo to try and capitalize at least.

----------


## Frontier

If there's no plans for a Catwoman solo (which would honestly surprise me), I imagine she, Ivy, and Harley have a definite Gotham City Sirens relaunch in their future  :Smile: .

----------


## Punisher007

^Possibly.

----------


## LimeBright

A few Selina/Catwoman fans [in Tumblr] may disagree, but I'll be happy if they're moving her away from the apparent perception that she's _such_ a hero/anti hero. She's the most interesting when she also serves as an antagonist.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Catwoman needs her own series before, or at least in addition to, a Gotham City Sirens series. She shouldn't be reduced to just another Harley Quinn teammate (like half of the rest of the DCU). In the first GCS series Catwoman was slightly inferior to Harley and Ivy, and was dependent upon their help. I really hope she isn't portrayed that way again.

----------


## Frontier

Jennfier Carpenter is apparently playing Catwoman in an upcoming _Gotham by Gaslight_ animated movie.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Frontier, I tried to upload a picture which I drew myself. It failed several times. I've never had a problem uploading pics from different sites or Facebook.  Why is my illustration upload failing?

----------


## Caivu

Catwoman will be in Bane: Conquest:

IMG_20170413_144515.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

That is exciting news! Dixon writes a solid Selina, and Nolan's pencils make her look appropriately silky!

----------


## Atlanta96

This could be the best written Selina in years. After the pain of New 52 Catwoman and the mediocrity of Tom King's take, Dixon could be the one to give her some good material finally.

----------


## Frontier

> Catwoman will be in Bane: Conquest:
> 
> IMG_20170413_144515.jpg


It'll be nice to have Dixon write Catwoman again, and Selina looks pretty good under Nolan's pencils  :Smile: .

----------


## Caivu

Catwoman is joining the Birds of Prey (along with Poison Ivy):

Screenshot_20170421-164803.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Catwoman is joining the Birds of Prey (along with Poison Ivy):
> 
> Screenshot_20170421-164803.jpg


Can they please get a better artist for the book along with this change? Rebirth Aquaman did worse than expected and in response they put Stjepan Sejic on art duties, hopefully they'll do something similar with BoP.

----------


## Frontier

> Catwoman is joining the Birds of Prey (along with Poison Ivy):
> 
> Screenshot_20170421-164803.jpg


Catwoman as part of the Birds of Prey? Interesting...she's always been on the peripheral for the group, but it'll be interesting to see how she functions as an actual member. 

And we've also got Poison Ivy rejoining, so that will be two criminals or "bad girls" thrown into the team dynamic we have setup with our core trio. It's also 2/3 of the Gotham City Sirens. Is Harley going to come in and demand her girlfriends back  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

Looking forward to seeing how the Bensons handle Selina and Pam  :Smile: .

And It was probably only a matter of time before Calculator came back.

----------


## Huntsman1117

They could make Catwoman the biggest wild card of the group; frequently deviating from the team plan, working solo, maintain a questionable alliance, yet always come through for the team in unexpected ways keeping both her teammates and their enemies guessing much to her own delight.

----------


## CryNotWolf

I never cared for Dixon's Selina. I very much disliked his Catwoman run and her appearances in both his Birds of Prey and his Nightwing. She always came off as incredibly whiny and not very charming.

----------


## Frontier

Catwoman shows up in the new DCEU intro that debuted with _Wonder Woman_: 



She's in-between Cyborg and Shazam.

----------


## The Kid

Nice! I hope that means Sirens is still in play. That's a movie that I could see being pretty great. I just hope Ayer goes

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> They could make Catwoman the biggest wild card of the group; frequently deviating from the team plan, working solo, maintain a questionable alliance, yet always come through for the team in unexpected ways keeping both her teammates and their enemies guessing much to her own delight.


It would be fun if Selina were like Mick Rory on "Legends of Tomorrow". Someone who was a  villain and a thief but is now a very brave and valuable member of the team. Yet he still helps himself to some 
jewelry and other valuables while on a mission. Batgirl be like "Put that back!"

----------


## Frontier

> It would be fun if Selina were like Mick Rory on "Legends of Tomorrow". Someone who was a  villain and a thief but is now a very brave and valuable member of the team. Yet he still helps himself to some 
> jewelry and other valuables while on a mission. Batgirl be like "Put that back!"


Just, y'know, Mick with actual class and intelligence  :Wink: .

----------


## Selina

> Jennfier Carpenter is apparently playing Catwoman in an upcoming _Gotham by Gaslight_ animated movie.


I am a bit disappointed that we will get a batman and hallie quinn movie first.

in fact catwoman has not shown up in the DCAU and no the dark knight returns doesn't count. and we have had two movies focused on talia and her insanity. ....bummer.

----------


## Frontier

> I am a bit disappointed that we will get a batman and hallie quinn movie first.
> 
> in fact catwoman has not shown up in the DCAU and no the dark knight returns doesn't count. and we have had two movies focused on talia and her insanity. ....bummer.


Catwoman was in the animated adaption of _Year One_, and a _DC Showcase_ short, but I know what you mean.

----------


## millernumber1

So, team Selina, what do we think Selina's role will be in Batman now? Do you think they'll find Holly? Do you think she'll be part of the The War of Jokes and Riddles? She's doing a ton of guest spots in Batfamily titles soon.

----------


## Frontier

> So, team Selina, what do we think Selina's role will be in Batman now? Do you think they'll find Holly? Do you think she'll be part of the The War of Jokes and Riddles? She's doing a ton of guest spots in Batfamily titles soon.


From the preview pages it looks like Bruce will be telling her what happened in the "War of Jokes and Riddles" as part of the framing device. 

I'm not sure what the heck Selina's direction is supposed to be now. Finding Holly? Clearing her name? Being Batman's backup when he needs it? Maybe that'll become clear in the next issue of _Batman_. 

I'm hoping her guest spots in_ Batgirl_ and _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ are good though, or at the very least fun appearances. It'll be interesting seeing her back in an antagonistic role against the Batfamily, more or less.

Also wondering if all these guest spots are building up to something...

----------


## millernumber1

> From the preview pages it looks like Bruce will be telling her what happened in the "War of Jokes and Riddles" as part of the framing device. 
> 
> I'm not sure what the heck Selina's direction is supposed to be now. Finding Holly? Clearing her name? Being Batman's backup when he needs it? Maybe that'll become clear in the next issue of _Batman_. 
> 
> I'm hoping her guest spots in_ Batgirl_ and _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ are good though, or at the very least fun appearances. It'll be interesting seeing her back in an antagonistic role against the Batfamily, more or less.
> 
> Also wondering if all these guest spots are building up to something...


Isn't Bruce mostly talking to Gotham Girl in the previews?

I'm very curious how King is going to drive the Selina/Bruce relationship forward - though after this issue, present day Selina is, as you say, in the Batgirl team's hands. I hope that her characterization is a bit more consistent than the last time Catwoman hung out with Batgirl, when Steph was Batgirl in the Sterling Gates World's Finest miniseries. That was a small blot on an otherwise delightful series.

I think King's done a really good job of setting Selina up as a character who isn't really a villain, but is definitely antagonistic towards the heroes. A fine line, but a good status quo, I think.

----------


## Frontier

> Isn't Bruce mostly talking to Gotham Girl in the previews?


There was a piece of Janin art with an underdressed Bruce and a woman on his bed, which I presumed was pertaining to _The War of Jokes and Riddles_ and with Selina on the bed. 




> I'm very curious how King is going to drive the Selina/Bruce relationship forward - though after this issue, present day Selina is, as you say, in the Batgirl team's hands. I hope that her characterization is a bit more consistent than the last time Catwoman hung out with Batgirl, when Steph was Batgirl in the Sterling Gates World's Finest miniseries. That was a small blot on an otherwise delightful series.


I think the Bensons will probably have fun with her and Ivy in _Birds of Prey_, though I'm not sure what Larson will do. 




> I think King's done a really good job of setting Selina up as a character who isn't really a villain, but is definitely antagonistic towards the heroes. A fine line, but a good status quo, I think.


I'm not sure how much she's antagonistic towards the heroes so much as she's just wanted for a crime she didn't actually committ, and is on the run, so unless Batman's told anyone else she's liable to get into conflict from that alone rather then through actual antagonism. 

But I guess her appearances in other Bat-family titles will give us an idea as to what exactly Selina's current status quo is.

----------


## DragonPiece

With how things are going, I could see Bruce proposing to Selina, but I  doubt she'd say yes

----------


## millernumber1

> There was a piece of Janin art with an underdressed Bruce and a woman on his bed, which I presumed was pertaining to _The War of Jokes and Riddles_ and with Selina on the bed. 
> 
> I think the Bensons will probably have fun with her and Ivy in _Birds of Prey_, though I'm not sure what Larson will do. 
> 
> I'm not sure how much she's antagonistic towards the heroes so much as she's just wanted for a crime she didn't actually committ, and is on the run, so unless Batman's told anyone else she's liable to get into conflict from that alone rather then through actual antagonism. 
> 
> But I guess her appearances in other Bat-family titles will give us an idea as to what exactly Selina's current status quo is.


Hmm. Wouldn't that be more likely from 25, though? I think your idea makes a lot of sense, but I don't think it'll happen in 24.

Given that I really didn't like how Larson handled Supergirl, and I quite like how the Bensons handled their many cameos, I think I'm pretty much of your opinion.

But I think the idea that King has implemented that Selina is always driven to run, and the heroes always driven to chase, it's not a partnership so much as a sometimes beneficial opposition/cross purposes.

I have to say, I'm really not a fan of the flagship title doing what Zero Year did, or what this title is doing now. But that's hypocritical of me, since Year One is one of my very favorite things ever. I just wish they'd publish that kind of thing as standalone miniseries, rather than part of the main run.




> With how things are going, I could see Bruce proposing to Selina, but I  doubt she'd say yes


Innnnnnnnteresting. What makes you think that? Just the fact that they've been getting closer and closer? Has Bruce ever proposed marriage to Selina before in main continuity? I mean, he did go for Julie when he was AmnesiacLumberBruce, but...

I just really hope that we don't end up with a Hush style pointless rug-yank at the end of King's run.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Hmm. Wouldn't that be more likely from 25, though? I think your idea makes a lot of sense, but I don't think it'll happen in 24.
> 
> Given that I really didn't like how Larson handled Supergirl, and I quite like how the Bensons handled their many cameos, I think I'm pretty much of your opinion.
> 
> But I think the idea that King has implemented that Selina is always driven to run, and the heroes always driven to chase, it's not a partnership so much as a sometimes beneficial opposition/cross purposes.
> 
> I have to say, I'm really not a fan of the flagship title doing what Zero Year did, or what this title is doing now. But that's hypocritical of me, since Year One is one of my very favorite things ever. I just wish they'd publish that kind of thing as standalone miniseries, rather than part of the main run.
> 
> 
> ...


I remember King saying the last page of this Wednesday's issue will have people talking, Batman and Catwoman on the cover in a loving way...next arc is a flashback arc, so he won't have to address what happens right off the bat.

----------


## millernumber1

> I remember King saying the last page of this Wednesday's issue will have people talking, Batman and Catwoman on the cover in a loving way...next arc is a flashback arc, so he won't have to address what happens right off the bat.


Fascinating.

Is there any chance whatsoever that DC would allow Batman to get married? Or even engaged?

----------


## DragonPiece

> Fascinating.
> 
> Is there any chance whatsoever that DC would allow Batman to get married? Or even engaged?


Very doubtful about that. I've had a theory for a while though that Doomsday Clock is gonna be set months after Metal and the other books, so maybe we'll flashforward to time after Batman gets married or something, when they are already divorced.

----------


## Frontier

If the main direction with Bruce going forward is him contemplating retiring as Batman and seeking a more normal life, I actually see him proposing to Selina as a plausible development from that.

She would probably turn him down though.

----------


## The Kid

> If the main direction with Bruce going forward is him contemplating retiring as Batman and seeking a more normal life, I actually see him proposing to Selina as a plausible development from that.
> 
> She would probably turn him down though.


Damn I hope that happens. I have no expectation of them actually getting married but Bruce actually wanting that to happen would please me

----------


## Jovos2099

I like it if we were to get a Helena wayne or helena kyle in the main continuity.

----------


## Desean101101

I don't think he wants a more normal life, just a more stable life. He and Selina been fucking on rooms and in broken apartments for so long Bruce is just trying to make it official.

----------


## DragonPiece

I do wonder if Catwomans upcoming apperances in birds of prey and batgirl will acknowledge what happens in batman 24, assuming some of you saw the spoiler.

----------


## Desean101101

> I do wonder if Catwomans upcoming apperances in birds of prey and batgirl will acknowledge what happens in batman 24, assuming some of you saw the spoiler.


It could be another reason why selina is showing up in those books, to try and say Hi to Bruce's extended family cause lets be honest. She is going to marry a Man With a Niece ( Barbara), 4 sons and a daughter( the Robins and Cassandra), A Cousin(Batwomen) who all hang around his house all the time. Also thats Not counting Duke who is crashing at The Mansion for the time being because he has superpowers he hasn't figured out yet and his parents aren't cured of the Joker gas.

When You marry Bruce wayne, you marry the family.

----------


## DragonPiece

> It could be another reason why selina is showing up in those books, to try and say Hi to Bruce's extended family cause lets be honest. She is going to marry a Man With a Niece ( Barbara), 4 sons and a daughter( the Robins and Cassandra), A Cousin(Batwomen) who all hang around his house all the time. Also thats Not counting Duke who is crashing at The Mansion for the time being because he has superpowers he hasn't figured out yet and his parents aren't cured of the Joker gas.
> 
> When You marry Bruce wayne, you marry the family.


See, I don't count any of them as Bruce's actual kids besides Dick,Jason and Damian.

----------


## Frontier

I mean, I think you can stretch the Batgirl's into surrogate daughters depending on the continuity or how you look at their relationships...

Though this does remind me that Selina is probably Bruce's most consistent and major love interest and yet she's hardly ever interacted with his biological son. Though I guess that could be awkward for Damian given the complicated relationship between his parents and Mom...

----------


## joybeans

> I mean, I think you can stretch the Batgirl's into surrogate daughters depending on the continuity or how you look at their relationships...
> 
> Though this does remind me that Selina is probably Bruce's most consistent and major love interest and yet she's hardly ever interacted with his biological son. Though I guess that could be awkward for Damian given the complicated relationship between his parents and Mom...


There was this one moment in Gotham City Sirens

----------


## millernumber1

> There was this one moment in Gotham City Sirens


Which issue was that?

----------


## Frontier

> Which issue was that?


I don't know the issue number off-hand, but I know it was the holiday issue where all the Sirens go off on their own for the holidays.

----------


## Bukdiah

Just started reading Catwoman Vol 1 by Brubaker and Cooke. Man, I'm a sucker for a good heist.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know the issue number off-hand, but I know it was the holiday issue where all the Sirens go off on their own for the holidays.


I went back and looked, and it was #7. A very nice, if sad, look at why supervillains don't really change that much. Part of Dini's run, which was much better, though inconsistent.

Man, I miss Dini on Selina. Why haven't they every tried him on a run for her?

----------


## vitaminbee

> Just started reading Catwoman Vol 1 by Brubaker and Cooke. Man, I'm a sucker for a good heist.


Does that one have Selina's Big Score? If not, get that as it's a great heist.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Does that one have Selina's Big Score? If not, get that as it's a great heist.


Yes. It collects Catwoman 1-9, Selina's Big Score & Detective Comics 759-762. I think the first story is Big Score and they separate it into "Book One" and such. Really long sections.

----------


## Punisher007

I'd be ok with them going through with this.  I mean I fully expect some writer to come along and get rid of it eventually.  But it could be fun to explore for awhile at least.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I don't think he wants a more normal life, just a more stable life. He and Selina been fucking on rooms and in broken apartments for so long Bruce is just trying to make it official.


No they haven't! Prior to that scene in the Catwoman's N52, I don't think even think they had sex. Maybe it was inferred around 2009 but pre-2005, those two did not have sex. 

With that being said, I completely agree with you that Bruce wants a more stable life. That I do agree with. And there have been hints of that ever since the mid 70's comics. 

Remember, he saw himself starting a family with Silver so this is been something that Bruce has been thinking about for a long time.

----------


## WontonGirl

> See, I don't count any of them as Bruce's actual kids besides Dick,Jason and Damian.


Exactly! Since when did Barbara become his niece?

----------


## WontonGirl

> I mean, I think you can stretch the Batgirl's into surrogate daughters depending on the continuity or how you look at their relationships...
> 
> Though this does remind me that Selina is probably Bruce's most consistent and major love interest and yet she's hardly ever interacted with his biological son. Though I guess that could be awkward for Damian given the complicated relationship between his parents and Mom...


Yes, I think that they should have some kind of scene with Damian and Selina. But if you think about it, since Cat was pushed so far to the background under Morrison and Scott, they didn't develop that relationship. The other writers writing tie-ins kinda did. 

Again, it all depends on the writer. Selina had relationships with Dick and Jason and even Tim. But if the writers aren't really fans of the Catwoman character (my opinion), they are not going to develop that relationship because they are not going to see her as a crucial or important person close to the family.

So the question is, how much of a fan is Tom King of Damian Wayne?

----------


## WontonGirl

> I am a bit disappointed that we will get a batman and hallie quinn movie first.
> 
> in fact catwoman has not shown up in the DCAU and no the dark knight returns doesn't count. and we have had two movies focused on talia and her insanity. ....bummer.


Yup! They sell her short in the DCAU. But consider the time period when a lot of the DCAU movies were coming out. She was as strong of a focus in the books so....

----------


## Desean101101

> No they haven't! Prior to that scene in the Catwoman's N52, I don't think even think they had sex. Maybe it was inferred around 2009 but pre-2005, those two did not have sex. 
> 
> With that being said, I completely agree with you that Bruce wants a more stable life. That I do agree with. And there have been hints of that ever since the mid 70's comics. 
> 
> Remember, he saw himself starting a family with Silver so this is been something that Bruce has been thinking about for a long time.


Oh in grant morrisons run of batman, Him and Selina were banging in most of his oversea's trips. She would meet him in town and stay with him while in town and they banged XD. and On and off through out the years they would kiss and fade to black. Bruce and Her are weird like that man XD

----------


## Desean101101

> Yes, I think that they should have some kind of scene with Damian and Selina. But if you think about it, since Cat was pushed so far to the background under Morrison and Scott, they didn't develop that relationship. The other writers writing tie-ins kinda did. 
> 
> Again, it all depends on the writer. Selina had relationships with Dick and Jason and even Tim. But if the writers aren't really fans of the Catwoman character (my opinion), they are not going to develop that relationship because they are not going to see her as a crucial or important person close to the family.
> 
> So the question is, how much of a fan is Tom King of Damian Wayne?


Selina has a soft spot for Jason and Dick as they were the first kids and she was around after Jason died the first time and saw how broken it made Bruce. Other than that she isn't big on the rest of kids. She thinks Damian is a bit of a brat but ignores him and Tim she barely acknowledges. She kinda Likes Barbara but only met her a few times. She adores Alfred tho XD

----------


## The Kid

Selina and Damian's interactions are going to be amazing. Someone posted this in the other thread but you know Talia is gonna be going nuts at the thought of Selina being the stepmom to her son

----------


## millernumber1

> So the question is, how much of a fan is Tom King of Damian Wayne?


I think, until Scott Snyder isn't writing something significant for Batman, we're just not going to see much interaction with Damian and any of the other Bat characters, except Nightwing. He just has too much power, and his stuff sells too much, so what he doesn't want to write isn't going to happen in the Batbooks till he's gone.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think, until Scott Snyder isn't writing something significant for Batman, we're just not going to see much interaction with Damian and any of the other Bat characters, except Nightwing. He just has too much power, and his stuff sells too much, so what he doesn't want to write isn't going to happen in the Batbooks till he's gone.


Are you saying that Scott has the lock on Damian? LOL! 

I guess, I mean. Eventually, if they go through this long term, like a long term engagement, eventually they will have to have some kind of talk about Damian and Selina. If they just keep Selina off to the side and her only interaction is with Bruce, then that would still kinda defeat the purpose. 

Even if it's a "yes, but not now" answer, eventually, they are going to have to do it. 

And nobody thinking about Talia, LOL! At this point, her "association" is really only with Damian, and even those are brief moments.

----------


## Huntsman1117

That is, of course, if Selina says "Yes". Dan Didio said that he does not believe that super heroes should be happy and that they should not be in relationships. So I suspect Selina will either say "No", or the relationship will sadly fall apart pretty quickly.

But it will be really interesting and exciting if she says "Yes"! I love the idea of the situation between Selina, Damian, and Talia. That is juicy goodness with a large popcorn. MAN I can't wait for BATMAN #25!

----------


## Cmbmool

> That is, of course, if Selina says "Yes". Dan Didio said that he does not believe that super heroes should be happy and that they should not be in relationships. So I suspect Selina will either say "No", or the relationship will sadly fall apart pretty quickly.
> 
> But it will be really interesting and exciting if she says "Yes"! I love the idea of the situation between Selina, Damian, and Talia. That is juicy goodness with a large popcorn. MAN I can't wait for BATMAN #25!


Dan Didio may have said that, but given the response in certain 52 titles....he may have to change his tone.

----------


## WontonGirl

> That is, of course, if Selina says "Yes". Dan Didio said that he does not believe that super heroes should be happy and that they should not be in relationships. So I suspect Selina will either say "No", or the relationship will sadly fall apart pretty quickly.
> 
> But it will be really interesting and exciting if she says "Yes"! I love the idea of the situation between Selina, Damian, and Talia. That is juicy goodness with a large popcorn. MAN I can't wait for BATMAN #25!


Is still with DC Comics? 

Also, all these other canon couples are together or have been together for decades; Superman and Lois, Diana and Steve, Barry and Iris, I mean why when it comes to Batman, he needs to be alone and unhappy? 

Please....

----------


## Assam

> See, I don't count any of them as Bruce's actual kids besides Dick,Jason and Damian.


Well, back in the good continuity, Tim and Cass were both legally adopted. With Tim's parents alive again though, Cass is the only one whose just as much Bruce's kid as the three you mentioned. 

That aside, its kinda funny that this proposal is the big thing everyone is talking about, and I don't care about it in the slightest. This isn't exactly a "romance for the ages" in my eyes, and I'm pretty positive that even if Selina says yes, and the marriage actually happens, it won't stick for more than a couple years, at most. 

What _might_ get me interested is if she appeared in 'Tec as a result of this, since to my knowledge Selina doesn't have much/any experience with the team members, so that would be a whole new canister of interactions and dynamics which could be opened up.

----------


## gwangung

> Well, back in the good continuity, Tim and Cass were both legally adopted. With Tim's parents alive again though, Cass is the only one whose just as much Bruce's kid as the three you mentioned. 
> 
> That aside, its kinda funny that this proposal is the big thing everyone is talking about, and I don't care about it in the slightest. This isn't exactly a "romance for the ages" in my eyes, and I'm pretty positive that even if Selina says yes, and the marriage actually happens, it won't stick for more than a couple years, at most.


Actually, I think it IS a romance for the ages...but more in the vein of _Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?_ than _Twelfth Night_ or even _Taming of the Shrew._

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well, back in the good continuity, Tim and Cass were both legally adopted. With Tim's parents alive again though, Cass is the only one whose just as much Bruce's kid as the three you mentioned. 
> 
> That aside, its kinda funny that this proposal is the big thing everyone is talking about, and I don't care about it in the slightest. This isn't exactly a "romance for the ages" in my eyes, and I'm pretty positive that even if Selina says yes, and the marriage actually happens, it won't stick for more than a couple years, at most. 
> 
> What _might_ get me interested is if she appeared in 'Tec as a result of this, since to my knowledge Selina doesn't have much/any experience with the team members, so that would be a whole new canister of interactions and dynamics which could be opened up.


If it wasn't a "romance for the ages" then nobody would be talking about it. This has gone mainstream media. Outside of DC Comic book readers, peeps don't even know Batman has a son. 

So it's a big deal. People talking about 3 characters that are over 70 years old; Bat, Cat and the Amazon Princess.

----------


## Assam

> If it wasn't a "romance for the ages" then nobody would be talking about it. This has gone mainstream media. Outside of DC Comic book readers, peeps don't even know Batman has a son. 
> 
> So it's a big deal. People talking about 3 characters that are over 70 years old; Bat, Cat and the Amazon Princess.


It's subjective. From my perspective, Bruce and Selina's relationship has never been that engaging, and the relationship being mainstream doesn't change that at all. Also,  mainstream audiences don't know Bruce has a "biological" son.  Don't be like "The Button" and imply that Damian is anymore Bruce's kid than the others.

----------


## godisawesome

> Is still with DC Comics? 
> 
> Also, all these other canon couples are together or have been together for decades; Superman and Lois, Diana and Steve, Barry and Iris, I mean why when it comes to Batman, he needs to be alone and unhappy? 
> 
> Please....


It's not just a thing that applies to Batman; Didio subscribes to the theory that allowing characters to show age risks hurting their marketability, and that marriage does that + removes the romantic conflict that often acts as a subplot to the main superhero adventures. A lot of the decrees and decisions behind the New 52 were aiming for recapturing a "classic" status quo, which should be read as "safe Silver Age-esque status quo where the superhero is stupendously single and sensually young to attract mainstream audiences." That's why Barry and Iris weren't dating, Diana and Steve had their separation emphasized, Superman and Lois had their marriage retconned and a third party introduced, and why Batwoman's marriage got nixed and why a clearly married Aquaman and Mera were suddenly insisted to not be married.

It's also probably one of the reasons why someone gave Judd Winick the okay to have Catwoman both lose her knowledge of Batman's identity while still ending his first issue with them shagging on a roof top. Making the attraction seem limited to a physical addiction removed a lot of the emotional character implications, and was an attempt to invoke the classic tensions while undermining the romantic buildup the previous decade had committed to. Just contrast the similar liaison to the one in King's Batman book, where the characters' knowledge of each others' identities and an emphasis on their emotional ties and similarities made the moment seem more emotionally intimate and a demonstration of trust.




> Actually, I think it IS a romance for the ages...but more in the vein of _Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?_ than _Twelfth Night_ or even _Taming of the Shrew._


While "romance for the ages" may be a hyperbole, it is undeniable that BatCat is easily the most popular romantic angle for Batman in the mind of the mainstream audiences, and probably the most accepted and pushed one in the comics: Golden Age Batman and Catwoman officially got married, Bronze Age Catwoman had a serious relationship with Batman, and Loeb and Dini worked hard to add a similarly serious nature to Post Crisis continuity.

Though I think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to what element would have to remain in the relationship to make it seem natural for both characters; conflict and a certain tempestuous undercurrent. I mean, neither of these characters could *settle* down, what with him being the justice seeking crusader and her the thrill seeker. I honestly think if I were in charge, the best move would be to have them marry, but have the relationship be rocky enough that they constantly physically separate and reunite to avoid clawing each other; almost like they'd share Wayne Manor and the Penthouse as twin headquarters and "deploy" separately unless absolutely necessary.

----------


## Frontier

> That aside, its kinda funny that this proposal is the big thing everyone is talking about, and I don't care about it in the slightest. This isn't exactly a "romance for the ages" in my eyes, and I'm pretty positive that even if Selina says yes, and the marriage actually happens, it won't stick for more than a couple years, at most.


Well, you never did strike me as a BatCat shipper, if only given your general apathy towards both Batman and Catwoman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

But I think, even if it's not a relationship you find a appealing, that it can't be denied that Batman and Catwoman are one of DC's most iconic and popular romances, so I'm not surprised that this is being treated as a very big deal. 

Though I think even those of us who are very into BatCat, myself included, can sense that this engagement or marriage will probably come apart at some point by the nature of who Bruce and Selina are and by the workings of Batman and Catwoman...but the story and the meaning to their relationship will still be valid and engaging. 




> What _might_ get me interested is if she appeared in 'Tec as a result of this, since to my knowledge Selina doesn't have much/any experience with the team members, so that would be a whole new canister of interactions and dynamics which could be opened up.


I've been wanting a Catwoman appearance in 'Tec for a while now. If this makes it happen, I'm all for it  :Wink: .



> It's subjective. From my perspective, Bruce and Selina's relationship has never been that engaging, and the relationship being mainstream doesn't change that at all. Also,  mainstream audiences don't know Bruce has a "biological" son.  Don't be like "The Button" and imply that Damian is anymore Bruce's kid than the others.


I think, while none of the other Robins are as mainstream as Dick, Damian is pretty high up there thanks to his media appearances and promotions, so I think his status is somewhat well-recognized. 

But I never thought "The Button" implied Damian was more of Bruce's kid then the other sidekicks, because of the context.

----------


## Assam

> Well, you never did strike me as a BatCat shipper, if only given your general apathy towards both Batman and Catwoman .


Actually, even if I don't care for characters, I can still love a relationship. (Both romantic and non-romantic) Ex. (In the non-romantic variety): There are probably no comic characters who my feelings fluctuate on more than Dick and Damian, but even when I'm not caring for either, I still LOVE their relationship.

Also, my apathy toward Selina has nothing to do with her character (I have basically zero feelings about her one way or another), I just haven't read much with her. 

And since this is her appreciation thread, anyone got recommendations? (Note: I've tried both 90's Catwoman and Brubaker's run. Didn't care for the issues I read.)

----------


## Caivu

> What _might_ get me interested is if she appeared in 'Tec as a result of this, since to my knowledge Selina doesn't have much/any experience with the team members, so that would be a whole new canister of interactions and dynamics which could be opened up.


This got me to thinking about it, and the only members I know for sure Selina's met are Bruce and Steph, and _maybe_ Tim. And she _kidnapped_ Steph, so... yeah. There's the potential for a bunch of fireworks there already.

----------


## dietrich

> Well, back in the good continuity, Tim and Cass were both legally adopted. With Tim's parents alive again though, Cass is the only one whose just as much Bruce's kid as the three you mentioned. 
> 
> That aside, its kinda funny that this proposal is the big thing everyone is talking about, and I don't care about it in the slightest. This isn't exactly a "romance for the ages" in my eyes, and I'm pretty positive that even if Selina says yes, and the marriage actually happens, it won't stick for more than a couple years, at most. 
> 
> What _might_ get me interested is if she appeared in 'Tec as a result of this, since to my knowledge Selina doesn't have much/any experience with the team members, so that would be a whole new canister of interactions and dynamics which could be opened up.


What do you mean good continuity? Regardless of fan head canons Bruce only has 3 kids.




> It's subjective. From my perspective, Bruce and Selina's relationship has never been that engaging, and the relationship being mainstream doesn't change that at all. Also,  mainstream audiences don't know Bruce has a "biological" son.  Don't be like "The Button" and imply that Damian is anymore Bruce's kid than the others.


Are you joking? if there's two things mainstream audiences know is that Robin is Dick Grayson or Damian Wayne and that Damian Wayne is the Over powered biological son of Batman. Those movies and Injustice 2 practically beats you over the head with it every few seconds it's ridiculous.

----------


## dietrich

I have never been a Bruce and anyone shipper but I have to say that a part of me really wants Selina to say yes and for King to go all the way with this. I liked them as a married in the BATB so might be interesting.

----------


## Assam

> What do you mean good continuity? Regardless of fan head canons Bruce only has 3 kids.


I'm talking about Pre-Flashpoint continuity. Both Tim and Cass _were_ adopted there. 




> Are you joking? if there's two things mainstream audiences know is that Robin is Dick Grayson or Damian Wayne and that Damian Wayne is the Over powered biological son of Batman. Those movies and Injustice 2 practically beats you over the head with it every few seconds it's ridiculous.


Bad wording on my part. I was responding to someone who said that mainstream audiences didn't know that Batman had a son, and I was focusing on the biological vs adopted point. Damian definitely _is_  the most well known Robin besides Dick, or at least tied with Jason.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> No they haven't! Prior to that scene in the Catwoman's N52, I don't think even think they had sex. Maybe it was inferred around 2009 but pre-2005, those two did not have sex. 
> 
> With that being said, I completely agree with you that Bruce wants a more stable life. That I do agree with. And there have been hints of that ever since the mid 70's comics. 
> 
> Remember, he saw himself starting a family with Silver so this is been something that Bruce has been thinking about for a long time.


Bruce and Selina had sex multiple times in Brubaker's Catwoman run, most notably issue 32. They also had a serious relationship during Wein's Batman run so it's only natural they would have had sex then as well.

----------


## WontonGirl

> It's subjective. From my perspective, Bruce and Selina's relationship has never been that engaging, and the relationship being mainstream doesn't change that at all. Also,  mainstream audiences don't know Bruce has a "biological" son.  Don't be like "The Button" and imply that Damian is anymore Bruce's kid than the others.


First off, I am NOT implying that Damian is less than any other son. He is Bruce's biological son and of course I acknowledge that. But non-comic book readers, mainstream fans and the "casual" fan do not know that Batman has a son. I didn't even know he had one till two years ago and I thought I was a Batman fan. Although I will admit, I fell off after the events of HUSH and the couple of times I did go back to Batman post HUSH, Damian Wayne was not in those stories. 

And if you don't find their relationship not be as "engaging", then of course you wouldn't acknowledge it as a big deal. It is a big deal and is on some mainstream sites but seeing something and acknowledging it are two different things. 

To each his own. At the end of the day, hopefully we still both like Batman.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Actually, even if I don't care for characters, I can still love a relationship. (Both romantic and non-romantic) Ex. (In the non-romantic variety): There are probably no comic characters who my feelings fluctuate on more than Dick and Damian, but even when I'm not caring for either, I still LOVE their relationship.
> 
> Also, my apathy toward Selina has nothing to do with her character (I have basically zero feelings about her one way or another), I just haven't read much with her. 
> 
> And since this is her appreciation thread, anyone got recommendations? (Note: I've tried both 90's Catwoman and Brubaker's run. Didn't care for the issues I read.)


If you are _seriously interested_, I can PM you some good recommendations. But that's ONLY if you also give me some good recommendations for Dick and Damian because I do like Dick Grayson and I am "intrigued" by his relationship with Damian. Seemed like them as Batman/Robin was cool but it's just way confusing for me to figure out where exactly to start.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Bruce and Selina had sex multiple times in Brubaker's Catwoman run, most notably issue 32. They also had a serious relationship during Wein's Batman run so it's only natural they would have had sex then as well.


No, I do not believe they have sex during Wein's run or Doug's run. In fact, the first person that was said he had sex with was Silver St. Cloud in the late 70's. 

And I'll give you Issue #32 from Brubaker's run BUT to be fair, that's the Catwoman comic. 

In the MAIN titles (Batman/Detective), they did not have sex prior to N52. Bruce/Selina or Bat/Cat.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm talking about Pre-Flashpoint continuity. Both Tim and Cass _were_ adopted there. 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad wording on my part. I was responding to someone who said that mainstream audiences didn't know that Batman had a son, and I was focusing on the biological vs adopted point. Damian definitely _is_  the most well known Robin besides Dick, or at least tied with Jason.


No, that's NOT true. Dick Grayson is the most well known Robin. Most mainstream fans or casual fans DO NOT know that Batman has a son. 

Again, I didn't even know of the animated films that existed after 2009 until I saw them listed on Wikipedia. I myself am playing catch-up with these comics. Didn't know WHO the hell Tim Drake was or Steph or Cass or any of these people. 

No, in the regular, everyday world, most people don't know who the hell these people are. Especially in my age group because they moved on from comics and animation after a certain age and was only seeing mainstream and see mainstream. 

Great example is Wonder Woman. So MANY FANS that have never picked up a comic but are watching this movie. All ages. BUT the one thing that they looked for was Steve Trevor. Some don't know Ares, some do BUT if Steve had not been in that movie, there would had been questions, LOL

----------


## WontonGirl

> What do you mean good continuity? Regardless of fan head canons Bruce only has 3 kids.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you joking? if there's two things mainstream audiences know is that Robin is Dick Grayson or Damian Wayne and that Damian Wayne is the Over powered biological son of Batman. Those movies and Injustice 2 practically beats you over the head with it every few seconds it's ridiculous.


Wasn't it ridiculous? But again, keep in mind, most mainstream and casual fans probably didn't see those animation movies or are gamers. 

Some know Damien, some don't. It's really that simple.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I have never been a Bruce and anyone shipper but I have to say that a part of me really wants Selina to say yes and for King to go all the way with this. I liked them as a married in the BATB so might be interesting.


Yeah and their child was named Damian, LOL! 

Morrison took that name just like the framework for Batman and Son is very similar to the drama Bruce went through with Nocturna over Jason Todd.

----------


## Assam

> And if you don't find their relationship not be as "engaging", then of course you wouldn't acknowledge it as a big deal. It is a big deal and is on some mainstream sites but seeing something and acknowledging it are two different things.


Implying that mainstream news sites never make big deals out of nothing? Regardless, I get what you mean. 




> To each his own. At the end of the day, hopefully we still both like Batman.


Actually yes. Tynion's 'Tec has reminded me of all the qualities I like about the character. 




> If you are _seriously interested_, I can PM you some good recommendations. But that's ONLY if you also give me some good recommendations for Dick and Damian because I do like Dick Grayson and I am "intrigued" by his relationship with Damian. Seemed like them as Batman/Robin was cool but it's just way confusing for me to figure out where exactly to start.


I am serious, as I'd like to be able to finally form an opinion on her. As for Dick and Damian, to fully appreciate the relationship, read Morrison's entire run, starting with _Batman and Son._ If that's too much, I've talked to people who had no problem starting with Morrison's _Batman and Robin_, Pre-Nu52. Wherever you decide to start, you can find complete reading orders with a quick google search. If you just want a taste before diving into Damian's multiple year-long character arc, the most recent arc of _Nightwing_, _Nightwing Must Die_, is a great display of their dynamic. 




> No, that's NOT true. Dick Grayson is the most well known Robin. Most mainstream fans or casual fans DO NOT know that Batman has a son.


I said "besides" Dick. Of course Dick is by far the most well known.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Implying that mainstream news sites never make big deals out of nothing? Regardless, I get what you mean. 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually yes. Tynion's 'Tec has reminded me of all the qualities I like about the character. 
> 
> 
> 
> I am serious, as I'd like to be able to finally form an opinion on her. As for Dick and Damian, to fully appreciate the relationship, read Morrison's entire run, starting with _Batman and Son._ If that's too much, I've talked to people who had no problem starting with Morrison's _Batman and Robin_, Pre-Nu52. Wherever you decide to start, you can find complete reading orders with a quick google search. If you just want a taste before diving into Damian's multiple year-long character arc, the most recent arc of _Nightwing_, _Nightwing Must Die_, is a great display of their dynamic. 
> ...


 Um, I think I did try Morrison's Batman & Son. I think I got confused with some ordering but okay I will try it again because I thought something jumped over to Batman & Robin. Nevertheless, I might just have to look at the Nightwing selections you mentioned. If it's mostly Dick and him, then I will read it. 

And when I get back home later, I will send my recommendations to you for Cat. Any particular relationship you are looking for with her? There is some good moments with Barbs and I know lots of people love her and her kinda "big sister" relationship with Holly but I really couldn't get into it.

----------


## Assam

> And when I get back home later, I will send my recommendations to you for Cat. Any particular relationship you are looking for with her? There is some good moments with Barbs and I know lots of people love her and her kinda "big sister" relationship with Holly but I really couldn't get into it.


Nothing in particular. Thanks!

----------


## CryNotWolf

> No, I do not believe they have sex during Wein's run or Doug's run. In fact, the first person that was said he had sex with was Silver St. Cloud in the late 70's. 
> 
> And I'll give you Issue #32 from Brubaker's run BUT to be fair, that's the Catwoman comic. 
> 
> In the MAIN titles (Batman/Detective), they did not have sex prior to N52. Bruce/Selina or Bat/Cat.


They most certainly did not remain celibate throughout the extent of their relationship. Believing they did betrays in you an ignorance of the characters involved. Also thinking Bruce was a virgin before Silver is a ridiculous notion in itself. He seriously dated both Julie Madison and Kathy Kane for a significant amount of time before Silver ever came onto the scene.

Also they had a very sexual relationship in Loeb's Long Halloween/Dark Victory series. One scene in particular where Selina invites Bruce into her apartment wearing nothing but a towel very much implied they were about to have sex.

----------


## Punisher007

> It's not just a thing that applies to Batman; Didio subscribes to the theory that allowing characters to show age risks hurting their marketability, and that marriage does that + removes the romantic conflict that often acts as a subplot to the main superhero adventures. A lot of the decrees and decisions behind the New 52 were aiming for recapturing a "classic" status quo, which should be read as "safe Silver Age-esque status quo where the superhero is stupendously single and sensually young to attract mainstream audiences." That's why Barry and Iris weren't dating, Diana and Steve had their separation emphasized, Superman and Lois had their marriage retconned and a third party introduced, and why Batwoman's marriage got nixed and why a clearly married Aquaman and Mera were suddenly insisted to not be married.
> 
> It's also probably one of the reasons why someone gave Judd Winick the okay to have Catwoman both lose her knowledge of Batman's identity while still ending his first issue with them shagging on a roof top. Making the attraction seem limited to a physical addiction removed a lot of the emotional character implications, and was an attempt to invoke the classic tensions while undermining the romantic buildup the previous decade had committed to. Just contrast the similar liaison to the one in King's Batman book, where the characters' knowledge of each others' identities and an emphasis on their emotional ties and similarities made the moment seem more emotionally intimate and a demonstration of trust.
> 
> 
> 
> While "romance for the ages" may be a hyperbole, it is undeniable that BatCat is easily the most popular romantic angle for Batman in the mind of the mainstream audiences, and probably the most accepted and pushed one in the comics: Golden Age Batman and Catwoman officially got married, Bronze Age Catwoman had a serious relationship with Batman, and Loeb and Dini worked hard to add a similarly serious nature to Post Crisis continuity.
> 
> Though I think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to what element would have to remain in the relationship to make it seem natural for both characters; conflict and a certain tempestuous undercurrent. I mean, neither of these characters could *settle* down, what with him being the justice seeking crusader and her the thrill seeker. I honestly think if I were in charge, the best move would be to have them marry, but have the relationship be rocky enough that they constantly physically separate and reunite to avoid clawing each other; almost like they'd share Wayne Manor and the Penthouse as twin headquarters and "deploy" separately unless absolutely necessary.


I see Didio's viewpoint as part of what's wrong with comics these days honestly.

And as for your description of a potential Bat/Cat marriage, that could work well potentially I think.

----------


## WontonGirl

> They most certainly did not remain celibate throughout the extent of their relationship. Believing they did betrays in you an ignorance of the characters involved. Also thinking Bruce was a virgin before Silver is a ridiculous notion in itself. He seriously dated both Julie Madison and Kathy Kane for a significant amount of time before Silver ever came onto the scene.
> 
> Also they had a very sexual relationship in Loeb's Long Halloween/Dark Victory series. One scene in particular where Selina invites Bruce into her apartment wearing nothing but a towel very much implied they were about to have sex.


*I never said that Bruce was a virgin.* I was saying that Silver was the first person that was "acknowledge" on paper that those two had sex. Now, yes I know he dated Julie and Kathy as well but was there panels where it showed that they had sex or was going to have sex? 

As far as the other stuff you posted, okay if Selina and Bruce had sex on the regular before then I stand corrected. I have to read LH/TDV, I haven't gotten around to it yet. *But please don't say I have an "ignorance" of the characters.* I just haven't read all the stories, that's all.

----------


## Caivu

New art:

Screenshot_20170609-135708.jpg

----------


## darkseidpwns

90's Catwoman look? the old stuff is canon? hell yeah.

----------


## Frontier

> New art:
> 
> Screenshot_20170609-135708.jpg


I was wondering if we would see Catwoman involved in the flashback portions of "The War of Jokes and Riddles," but I wasn't expecting 90's Catwoman. Whoah indeed  :Big Grin: .

I kinda miss that look...

----------


## WontonGirl

> I was wondering if we would see Catwoman involved in the flashback portions of "The War of Jokes and Riddles," but I wasn't expecting 90's Catwoman. Whoah indeed .
> 
> I kinda miss that look...


I mean, I am so excited for this next arc. I know it's a flashback arc but still. Get to see some classic rogues! And TK said that it's 1 year later after the bat crashes through Bruce's window.

----------


## WontonGirl

Okay, I don't see that this has been posted yet BUT Batman & Catwoman was talked about on Jimmy Fallon! He told a Batman/Robin joke on The Tonight Show and told the audience about Batman asking Catwoman to marry him! And the audience's reaction was like "oooohh" and "aaah". They were "oohing" like that lovey-dovey kinda way, LOL! 

I think this is great. Fallon is a GenXer as well and it just brings Catwoman into the mainstream mind again, even though she is there anyway. But do you know how many mainstream & regular people NOW know that Batman is asking Catwoman to marry him???? This is freaking huge! 

It's on Tom King's Twitter page if someone can get it and post it here. A Twitter poster sent it to Tom King, along with the video. 

 :Big Grin:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Okay, I don't see that this has been posted yet BUT Batman & Catwoman was talked about on Jimmy Fallon! He told a Batman/Robin joke on The Tonight Show and told the audience about Batman asking Catwoman to marry him! And the audience's reaction was like "oooohh" and "aaah". They were "oohing" like that lovey-dovey kinda way, LOL! 
> 
> I think this is great. Fallon is a GenXer as well and it just brings Catwoman into the mainstream mind again, even though she is there anyway. But do you know how many mainstream & regular people NOW know that Batman is asking Catwoman to marry him???? This is freaking huge! 
> 
> It's on Tom King's Twitter page if someone can get it and post it here. A Twitter poster sent it to Tom King, along with the video.


It doesn't really mean anything unless  it actually happens, there is a thing which we call click bait. If Tom doesn't marry them off at the right time then all this will amount to nothing and may actually damage the reputation of comics.

----------


## WontonGirl

> It doesn't really mean anything unless  it actually happens, there is a thing which we call click bait. If Tom doesn't marry them off at the right time then all this will amount to nothing and may actually damage the reputation of comics.


This is something. Because now we can say that "Batman asked Catwoman to marry him in the comics". 

I thought it was cool.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I was wondering if we would see Catwoman involved in the flashback portions of "The War of Jokes and Riddles," but I wasn't expecting 90's Catwoman. Whoah indeed .
> 
> I kinda miss that look...


Man, you should see the responses to this on his Twitter. Dudes are like "I'm in love", LOL!

----------


## Caivu

> Okay, I don't see that this has been posted yet BUT Batman & Catwoman was talked about on Jimmy Fallon! He told a Batman/Robin joke on The Tonight Show and told the audience about Batman asking Catwoman to marry him! And the audience's reaction was like "oooohh" and "aaah". They were "oohing" like that lovey-dovey kinda way, LOL! 
> 
> I think this is great. Fallon is a GenXer as well and it just brings Catwoman into the mainstream mind again, even though she is there anyway. But do you know how many mainstream & regular people NOW know that Batman is asking Catwoman to marry him???? This is freaking huge! 
> 
> It's on Tom King's Twitter page if someone can get it and post it here. A Twitter poster sent it to Tom King, along with the video.


Honestly, I'd expect a good portion of the audience might not realize that he wasn't just making a joke.

----------


## godisawesome

There's something about the 90's design that just gives off a more vibrant and "fun" feeling in it...

And yeah, Fallon's comments are largely click bait style, but they prove something; there is a _lot_ of interest in the idea. Enough to justify the risk, in my opinion.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> This is something. Because now we can say that "Batman asked Catwoman to marry him in the comics". 
> 
> I thought it was cool.


Obviously its big but if they dont capitalize on it at the right time or at all then it all amounts to loud noise. Remember its just a proposal and we wont get an answer for months either.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> New art:
> 
> Attachment 50409


They should dump her fugly androgynous anorexic bugman look and return her back to this.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> They should dump her fugly androgynous anorexic bugman look and return her back to this.


Agreed.

I love the attention and excitement over the proposal! I also love the flashback to her 90's look. I'm just a little disappointed that she is still wearing her current look in the solicitations for upcoming issues of "Batgirl" and "Birds of Prey"; although, I'm still looking forward to these issues as well. 

The fluctuations of mood that characters can experience in a volatile and dynamic relationship can make a comic series much more interesting throughout time. Therefore, while Bat & Cat may have a difficult and unstable relationship, it will be a great new element to the Batman and Bat-family comic series.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Obviously its big but if they dont capitalize on it at the right time or at all then it all amounts to loud noise. Remember its just a proposal and we wont get an answer for months either.


You heard about Adam West right? 

I was thinking about the Catwoman from the Batman TV show. All 3 actresses; Julie, Jill and Eartha brought such much to that Catwoman role. That was a great show to watch Catwoman on  :Frown:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Honestly, I'd expect a good portion of the audience might not realize that he wasn't just making a joke.


They know that man wasn't making a joke about the Catwoman part, come on. The "punchline" of the jokes are based off something that's true or currently happening. And the late night studio audience has known this for years. 

They know he was serious! The punchline was about Robin and a play on the rumor that Batman is gay. A rumor that has been around since the early 50's.

----------


## adrikito

> New art:
> 
> Attachment 50409


Seline with long hair... I liked...

But WAR OF JOKES is a NEW previous batman adventure... no? Riddler mention this to Bane..

----------


## WontonGirl

> Agreed.
> 
> I love the attention and excitement over the proposal! I also love the flashback to her 90's look. I'm just a little disappointed that she is still wearing her current look in the solicitations for upcoming issues of "Batgirl" and "Birds of Prey"; although, I'm still looking forward to these issues as well. 
> 
> The fluctuations of mood that characters can experience in a volatile and dynamic relationship can make a comic series much more interesting throughout time. Therefore, while Bat & Cat may have a difficult and unstable relationship, it will be a great new element to the Batman and Bat-family comic series.


Can you tell me what Batgirl and Birds of Prey books? I keep hearing she is going to be in them. Are these books coming out in June? 

I think the 90's look is because JAR is a flashback story.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Seline with long hair... I liked...


She looked beautiful in the JLA: The Nail comics too with the long "blue/black" hair. Simply stunning.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Obviously its big but if they dont capitalize on it at the right time or at all then it all amounts to loud noise. Remember its just a proposal and we wont get an answer for months either.


I think it's cool and fun and exciting. I think that Warner Brothers should take a good look at this too. Out of all the adaptions, we haven't had a good animated movie with Catwoman or BatCat as the love interests. 

And yes I mean something other than "Gotham City Sirens". I mean, we can have it but let's give the lady her due with the animated movies. Based on THOSE movies, you would think she doesn't exist  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> She looked beautiful in the JLA: The Nail comics too with the long "blue/black" hair. Simply stunning.


For me is like see the Catwoman of Batman Brave and Bold again, without layer.

----------


## DragonPiece

So excited Selina will actually be in costume for war of jokes and riddles, thought she was only gonna show up in the present scenes.

----------


## WontonGirl

> For me is like see the Catwoman of Batman Brave and Bold again, without layer.


But now "Selina" in HUSH, she was stunning now. Her and Bruce sitting next to each other in the opera, whew! They looked like beautiful twins, LOL! 

And that was the best looking Bruce to me. That and how he looked in Rebirth all the way up to this latest panel. 

Back to Cat, yes that 90s costume was great.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Can you tell me what Batgirl and Birds of Prey books? I keep hearing she is going to be in them. Are these books coming out in June? 
> 
> I think the 90's look is because JAR is a flashback story.


She'll appear in Batgirl in July
BOP in July,August and maybe onward
Bane Conquest in August
Batman as usual.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> You heard about Adam West right? 
> 
> I was thinking about the Catwoman from the Batman TV show. All 3 actresses; Julie, Jill and Eartha brought such much to that Catwoman role. That was a great show to watch Catwoman on


Yes, may he rest in peace.

----------


## Tuck

It's only in a few corners, like this, on the internet where I run into people who dislike the Cooke design.  Most everywhere else it comes up in my experience, people really like the design.  (Personally, I think Cooke's design of both the costume and Selina herself are the best the comics have ever had.  There _is_ often a problem of people altering the look in ways that come off badly though.)

I don't know what the consensus would be out there, but I wouldn't assume dislike of the Cooke design is as wide spread as it is here.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> It's only in a few corners, like this, on the internet where I run into people who dislike the Cooke design.  Most everywhere else it comes up in my experience, people really like the design.  (Personally, I think Cooke's design of both the costume and Selina herself are the best the comics have ever had.  There _is_ often a problem of people altering the look in ways that come off badly though.)
> 
> I don't know what the consensus would be out there, but I wouldn't assume dislike of the Cooke design is as wide spread as it is here.


I dislike it and so do many hardcore fans but you're right, the casuals think its cool, practical and makes sense. Conversely they think the purple costumes are a joke but I'll take the 90's suit over the Cooke version. The character needs to move on from the Cooke version, everyone has a new costume now.

----------


## Frontier

> It's only in a few corners, like this, on the internet where I run into people who dislike the Cooke design.  Most everywhere else it comes up in my experience, people really like the design.  (Personally, I think Cooke's design of both the costume and Selina herself are the best the comics have ever had.  There _is_ often a problem of people altering the look in ways that come off badly though.)
> 
> I don't know what the consensus would be out there, but I wouldn't assume dislike of the Cooke design is as wide spread as it is here.


I think the Cooke design is a pretty awesome redesign and striking look overall, though sometimes I can see people's issues with it. There are Catwoman looks I prefer a tad more. 

I do sometimes wish we saw more variety in Selina's costumes and look. It almost feels like Harley and Ivy get to be more versatile in the looks-department then Catwoman is.

----------


## Caivu

> It's only in a few corners, like this, on the internet where I run into people who dislike the Cooke design.  Most everywhere else it comes up in my experience, people really like the design.  (Personally, I think Cooke's design of both the costume and Selina herself are the best the comics have ever had.  There _is_ often a problem of people altering the look in ways that come off badly though.)
> 
> I don't know what the consensus would be out there, but I wouldn't assume dislike of the Cooke design is as wide spread as it is here.


Same here. Cooke's design is friggin' cool.

----------


## Tuck

> I dislike it and so do many hardcore fans but you're right, the casuals think its cool, practical and makes sense.


It is practical and makes sense (when artists don't swap out the boots for heels).

 . . . or with her foot in boots, but inexplicably drawn like they're in heels



But again, speaking for myself and people in my comic-reading social circle, we like it _aesthetically_ more than previous designs.

----------


## Frontier

> It is practical and makes sense (when artists don't swap out the boots for heels).
> 
>  . . . or with her foot in boots, but inexplicably drawn like they're in heels
> 
> 
> 
> But again, speaking for myself and people in my comic-reading social circle, we like it _aesthetically_ more than previous designs.


I think aesthetically sometimes it could "pop" more and have a little more flair, without losing having to lose the practicality of it (but that's also kind of the stigma of practical costumes), but sometimes that would obviously depend on the artist. 

I am kind of curious what Shane Glines' take on Catwoman might be if she ever shows up in _Justice League Action_.

----------


## Tuck

> I think aesthetically sometimes it could "pop" more and have a little more flair, without losing having to lose the practicality of it (but that's also kind of the stigma of practical costumes), but sometimes that would obviously depend on the artist.


Well, it probably does work best in the kind of pop art style of Cooke or Allred, Cameron Stewart.

----------


## billee0918

I'm ready for a new look...partial to DKR costume, with mods to make more comic-y.

----------


## WontonGirl

> She'll appear in Batgirl in July
> BOP in July,August and maybe onward
> Bane Conquest in August
> Batman as usual.


Okay I found out the info. I wonder how she will play into these comics. Soon we will find out our answer to the proposal right? 

So would her portrayal in the other books influence her portrayal in the main title?

----------


## Atlanta96

I have nothing against the Cooke design, but it's been around for 16 years now and I'm ready for something new. If it was her original costume I could understand it lasting forever, but in this case I think a redesign is long overdue.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think the Cooke design is a pretty awesome redesign and striking look overall, though sometimes I can see people's issues with it. There are Catwoman looks I prefer a tad more. 
> 
> I do sometimes wish we saw more variety in Selina's costumes and look. It almost feels like Harley and Ivy get to be more versatile in the looks-department then Catwoman is.


Yeah but I think that it kinda makes sense, because of what she is or what she is doing (prowling, gotham ally, breaking into something, whatever). 

Whereas Ivy's looks pretty much stay the same too. 

Harvey seems to have to most looks. I mean, she got looks for all kinds of weather, LOL!

----------


## Frontier

> Well, it probably does work best in the kind of pop art style of Cooke or Allred, Cameron Stewart.


I do think how dynamic it looks depends a lot on the artist, but I think a lot of the time the best Catwoman artists try and inject a little more "style" into the design, starting with Cooke himself.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I think the Cooke design is a pretty awesome redesign and striking look overall, though sometimes I can see people's issues with it. There are Catwoman looks I prefer a tad more. 
> 
> I do sometimes wish we saw more variety in Selina's costumes and look. It almost feels like Harley and Ivy get to be more versatile in the looks-department then Catwoman is.


I still miss the purple gown and long green cape.  The black pajamas are kind of boring.


CW_OLD_C.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> It is practical and makes sense (when artists don't swap out the boots for heels).
> 
>  . . . or with her foot in boots, but inexplicably drawn like they're in heels
> 
> 
> 
> But again, speaking for myself and people in my comic-reading social circle, we like it _aesthetically_ more than previous designs.


Did you buy Catwoman's book regularly when it was published? I can tell you looking at her drawn so fugly with lopped off hair going every which way and bug eyed goggles issue after issue after issue made me want to POUND those goggles with a rock.

The catsuit is not a problem but her headgear is aesthetically terrible. Notice how Lindy and Nolan didn't care to use it in its entirety but adapted it so she would at least look human in TDKRises.

 I keep hearing that argument of it's practical. So are Crocs but I would never be caught dead in one

Enough with Cooke. He's dead so he won't be offended that DC jettisoned this costume.

----------


## Tuck

> I can tell you looking at her drawn so fugly with lopped off hair going every which way


Funny enough, if she didn't already have the shorter hair, it might be in order for an update as it's more contemporary now.





> and bug eyed goggles issue after issue after issue made me want to POUND those goggles with a rock.
> 
> The catsuit is not a problem but her headgear is aesthetically terrible.


They're gaming glasses.

----------


## Frontier

> Funny enough, if she didn't already have the shorter hair, it might be in order for an update as it's more contemporary now.


Yeah, you do see a lot of major comic characters going for the pixie cut or shorter hair these days, to varying degrees of success...

----------


## Caivu

> Did you buy Catwoman's book regularly when it was published? I can tell you looking at her drawn so fugly with lopped off hair going every which way and bug eyed goggles issue after issue after issue made me want to POUND those goggles with a rock.


YMMV. I like both of those.




> The catsuit is not a problem but her headgear is aesthetically terrible. Notice how Lindy and Nolan didn't care to use it in its entirety but adapted it so she would at least look human in TDKRises.


Disagree, I like her headgear a lot. 

I don't think the different look in the Nolanverse has anything to do with the comic look itself. They also profoundly redesigned Bane, Joker, and Two-Face for the films. Even Batman himself looks different from his comic counterpart at the time.

----------


## Tuck

> Yeah, you do see a lot of major comic characters going for the pixie cut or shorter hair these days, to varying degrees of success...


I was talking about real world trends, but for once there does seem to be some acknowledgment in the comics.  (Unlike when Superman debuted his mullet at around the same time Metallica cut their hair.  Good job showing up late, comics.)  :Big Grin:

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Funny enough, if she didn't already have the shorter hair, it might be in order for an update as it's more contemporary now.


Lithmus test: let's chop off Wondy, Harley, Ivy and Barbara's hair too. Hell, it's a hot day in summer, why don't we shave them all bald. Let's see how their books do





> They're gaming glasses.


So whys she wearing them hopping off rooftops?

----------


## Tuck

> Lithmus test: let's chop off Wondy, Harley, Ivy and Barbara's hair too. Hell, it's a hot day in summer, why don't we shave them all bald. Let's see how their books do


Bald, or at least a buzz cut, is an increasingly common look for women in 2017.





> So whys she wearing them hopping off rooftops?


I was being silly.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Bald, or at least a buzz cut, is an increasingly common look for women in 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was being silly.


Fine. Let's buzz cut all the DC ladies so we can level e playing field for Catwoman.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Bald, or at least a buzz cut, is an increasingly common look for women in 2017..


Yeah, I'm sure a bald or buzzcut Selina or Ivy would go over real well with readers. Let's give them exposed armpit hair while we're at it.

----------


## Assam

Some of y'all got a real problem. Societal standards of beauty are BS. 

I don't think a buzz cut or going bald would fit Selina's character, but just as an example, I could definitely picture Ivy getting the cut.

----------


## Tuck

> Yeah, I'm sure a bald or buzzcut Selina or Ivy would go over real well with readers. Let's give them exposed armpit hair while we're at it.


I was just pointing out that an "outrageous" idea isn't really that outrageous given current style.

I think the "armpit hair" is reading too much into a style trend.

And, of course, Batwoman already has a buzz cut.  And Gotham Girl essentially does (although story context would imply it's temporary).  It's not unprecedented in the books.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I was just pointing out that an "outrageous" idea isn't really that outrageous given current style.
> 
> I think the "armpit hair" is reading too much into a style trend.
> 
> And, of course, Batwoman already has a buzz cut.  And Gotham Girl essentially does (although story context would imply it's temporary).  It's not unprecedented in the books.


Yeah, it's almost like Kate is a completely different type of character than Harley or Ivy.

And there is no buzz cut craze, I don't think I've seen a single woman with buzzcut hair in the past year. Or any man for that matter. They're not popular outside of the military.

----------


## Frontier

> Some of y'all got a real problem. Societal standards of beauty are BS. 
> 
> I don't think a buzz cut or going bald would fit Selina's character, but just as an example, I could definitely picture Ivy getting the cut.


...I could never imagine Ivy with a buzzcut or hair that short. _Maybe_ a bob, at best, but that's about it.

I guess I could see it with a more radical take on Ivy but not the mainstream or traditional version.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> YMMV. I like both of those.


Even Nocenti's run?




> Disagree, I like her headgear a lot. 
> 
> I don't think the different look in the Nolanverse has anything to do with the comic look itself. They also profoundly redesigned Bane, Joker, and Two-Face for the films. Even Batman himself looks different from his comic counterpart at the time.


Well. There's no accounting for taste  :Smile:  Seriously, your opinion is polar opposite of mine and we're both free to express it.

how was Bats different? He had a cape, cowl with pointy ears and a bat suit. Are we talking details like did he have an oval or not (I don t even remember). Bane, understandable, he wanted his version to be as far from the Schumacher one. Joker and Two face, more realistic look?

The thing with Cats is that her costume is SO practical and realistic (or so everyone says) that a direct adaptation would not have looked out of place in Nolan's world. Despite that, Nolan opted for a little sex appeal via the Julie Newmar look with just some nods to her current and 90s look. When even Nolan has to do THAT, well, you get what I mean. 

Ps I didn't mind the goggle/headband/catears. The absence of the cowl plus the long hair makes it work.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, it's almost like Kate is a completely different type of character than Harley or Ivy.
> 
> And there is no buzz cut craze, I don't think I've seen a single woman with buzzcut hair in the past year. Or any man for that matter. They're not popular outside of the military.


Obviously, different hairstyles should fit the character. Of course, whether the cut does fit is all down to personal opinion. 

Oh, and college student speaking here, buzzcuts, similar hairstyles, and a whole ton of other non-conventional hairstyles are really popular nowadays with people in my age range, and I can't walk down a a couple blocks in NYC without seeing either a man or a woman with a hairstyle along those lines.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Some of y'all got a real problem. Societal standards of beauty are BS. 
> 
> I don't think a buzz cut or going bald would fit Selina's character, but just as an example, I could definitely picture Ivy getting the cut.


Halle Berry rocks the pixie more than long hair. If every artist could draw Cats to look like Halle, i would not have a problem. Unfortunately, there are only a few artists I can count on one hand who can draw Selina rocking that pixie. The rest draw it frightfully sticking out all over.

Curious why you think Ivy should have a buzz cut? Is it because she could donate all her lovely locks (and nail clippings while she's at it) for the compost pile to feed her plants?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Obviously, different hairstyles should fit the character. Of course, whether the cut does fit is all down to personal opinion. 
> 
> Oh, and college student speaking here, buzzcuts, similar hairstyles, and a whole ton of other non-conventional hairstyles are really popular nowadays with people in my age range, and I can't walk down a a couple blocks in NYC without seeing either a man or a woman with a hairstyle along those lines.


NYC exists in its own little reality. I know for a fact that if a New Yorker sees something out of the ordinary, they don't even stop to look at it. And I've had several former NYC residents confirm this for me  :Smile: 

As a Floridian technical college student of 3 years, I have never seen a hairstyle more outrageous than red highlights.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Obviously, different hairstyles should fit the character. Of course, whether the cut does fit is all down to personal opinion. 
> 
> Oh, and college student speaking here, buzzcuts, similar hairstyles, and a whole ton of other non-conventional hairstyles are really popular nowadays with people in my age range, and I can't walk down a a couple blocks in NYC without seeing either a man or a woman with a hairstyle along those lines.


We must be walking down different blocks because I just see working stiffs with regular hairstyles.

----------


## Assam

> Curious why you think Ivy should have a buzz cut? Is it because she could donate all her lovely locks (and nail clippings while she's at it) for the compost pile to feed her plants?


Not that I think she _should_. I just wouldn't be shocked or think it out of place if she did have that hairstyle.

----------


## Caivu

> Even Nocenti's run?


If we're talking purely the visual design, yes. It's not like it drastically changed.




> how was Bats different? He had a cape, cowl with pointy ears and a bat suit. Are we talking details like did he have an oval or not (I don t even remember).


I mean that it wasn't a direct lift from the comics.




> The thing with Cats is that her costume is SO practical and realistic (or so everyone says) that a direct adaptation would not have looked out of place in Nolan's world.


Why do that with Catwoman, though? He didn't focus on strict comic-accuracy with most of the other characters he used.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> If we're talking purely the visual design, yes. It's not like it drastically changed.


So you bought the issues from Nocenti's run? I'm going to have dig at mine and post some real beauties.





> Why do that with Catwoman, though? He didn't focus on strict comic-accuracy with most of the other characters he used.


[/QUOTE]
Well he could have tweaked the current look like he did the bat suit. Why didn't he?

----------


## Frontier

This discussion reminds me of my thoughts on _The Batman_ cartoon's take on Catwoman's look, which I thought was a nice attempt at bridging the different design philosophies of her costumes while also looking very visually appealing.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Agreed.
> 
> I love the attention and excitement over the proposal! I also love the flashback to her 90's look. I'm just a little disappointed that she is still wearing her current look in the solicitations for upcoming issues of "Batgirl" and "Birds of Prey"; although, I'm still looking forward to these issues as well. 
> 
> The fluctuations of mood that characters can experience in a volatile and dynamic relationship can make a comic series much more interesting throughout time. Therefore, while Bat & Cat may have a difficult and unstable relationship, it will be a great new element to the Batman and Bat-family comic series.


90s catsuit is now up to 1200 likes on his Twitter and generating VERY positive reaction. The fugly one from weeks ago maybe a third of that.

As for the proposal, who knows if it's another bait and switch to goose sales. If he really wants to make issue 24 a collectors item for the sake of his and our retirement, he knows what to do. Otherwise, this is just one of those flash in the pan, won't matter in a few months kind of thing. maybe he'll surprise us.

----------


## Assam

> This discussion reminds me of my thoughts on _The Batman_ cartoon's take on Catwoman's look, which I thought was a nice attempt at bridging the different design philosophies of her costumes while also looking very visually appealing.


Yeah, her design on that show was one of the few villain designs I really liked.

----------


## Caivu

> So you bought the issues from Nocenti's run?


No, but I've read them.




> Well he could have tweaked the current look like he did the bat suit. Why didn't he?


I don't know. The biggest change seems to be making the goggles and the cat ears the same, which is a very Nolan-esque move, so I'm guessing that idea played a big part.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> No, but I've read them.


Skin in the game. Why didn't you buy them?




> I don't know. The biggest change seems to be making the goggles and the cat ears the same, which is a very Nolan-esque move, so I'm guessing that idea played a big part.


Exposed long hair vs not is the big difference.

----------


## Caivu

> Skin in the game. Why didn't you buy them?


I'm poor, basically. I've read them legally, but for free.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I'm poor, basically. I've read them legally, but for free.


Fair enough. As I said, I'll dig out some panels that irk me no end.

Here's one with the pixie from hell. Even the bat boys have a better barber than her

image.jpg

another horror show, why is her face white? 
image.jpg
image.jpg

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

And we can't even blame it on the artist bec Rafa Sandoval is terrific and has also done this gorgeous one which he posted on his Facebook 
Attachment 50440

So was there a directive by editorial or Ann to make her look as crappy as possible?

----------


## Caivu

The only thing I see in those that bothers me is some slightly wonky foreshortening.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> The only thing I see in those that bothers me is some slightly wonky foreshortening.


lol. I'm floored at your response. Once upon a time, Catwoman was a femme fatale, a great beauty. Since this costume change she's gotten progressively uglier that it's now the norm.

----------


## Caivu

> lol. I'm floored at your response. Once upon a time, Catwoman was a femme fatale, a great beauty. Since this costume change she's gotten progressively uglier that it's now the norm.


I don't think she's ugly at all now.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I don't think she's ugly at all now.


To each his own

----------


## Atlanta96

Yeah, DC really doesn't want Selina to be a sex symbol anymore. That might be partially responsible for her drop in popularity, an unwillingness to embrace certain aspects of her character. Hopefully they can turn it around.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Just go with a version of the Nolan/Newmar costume.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Just go with a version of the Nolan/Newmar costume.


So, what she has now minus the cowl/goggles and with a smaller zipper?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> So, what she has now minus the cowl/goggles and with a smaller zipper?


Hair, no fugly bug eyes.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Yeah, DC really doesn't want Selina to be a sex symbol anymore. That might be partially responsible for her drop in popularity, an unwillingness to embrace certain aspects of her character. Hopefully they can turn it around.


They always go to extremes -- from insulting oversexuality to anemic asexuality. It doesn't help that there are a bunch of these Victorian types in comics who seem to easily offended by even a hint of cleavage

----------


## Punisher007

That's blatantly not true.  "Sex appeal" or being a "femme fatale" doesn't always equal "show off lots of skin/cleavage."  She's also a non-powered thief who needs to be able to move quickly, squeeze into tight places, fight, etc.  

Her costume should reflect that.  And when you insult/dismiss someone just because they don't agree with you, it only hurts YOUR argument/credibility.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> That's blatantly not true.  "Sex appeal" or being a "femme fatale" doesn't always equal "show off lots of skin/cleavage."  She's also a non-powered thief who needs to be able to move quickly, squeeze into tight places, fight, etc.  
> 
> Her costume should reflect that.  And when you insult/dismiss someone just because they don't agree with you, it only hurts YOUR argument/credibility.


Excuse me, when did I say "lots"?

And who was I insulting for disagreeing with me? I'm well aware that what we consider to be beautiful/tasteful is subjective. So I explain my points and there's a few back and forth for clarity, but if we get to where there's no resolution, then it is what it is. But I'm also not going to keep my opinions to myself just to go along with consensus.

I'll reiterate: They've sucked the sex appeal out of Cats as an over reaction to Winick/March (of which I also was not a fan of) and I think it's detrimental to the character. Whether you agree with me or not is your problem not mine.

----------


## Atlanta96

> That's blatantly not true.  "Sex appeal" or being a "femme fatale" doesn't always equal "show off lots of skin/cleavage."  She's also a non-powered thief who needs to be able to move quickly, squeeze into tight places, fight, etc.  
> 
> Her costume should reflect that.  And when you insult/dismiss someone just because they don't agree with you, it only hurts YOUR argument/credibility.


Sorry, but in an art form where the default costume (for both men and women) is skintight spandex, a character kind of does have to show skin in order to be considered sexy or a femme fatale. Like, how are we supposed to know Selina is a flirtatious and openly sexual character if she's dressed essentially the same as The Flash or Cyclops?

----------


## Caivu

> Like, how are we supposed to know Selina is a flirtatious and openly sexual character if she's dressed essentially the same as The Flash or Cyclops?


By the way she acts.

----------


## Atlanta96

> By the way she acts.


But comics are a visual medium, if flirtation or promiscuity are important traits for a character it should be reflected in their design.

----------


## Caivu

> But comics are a visual medium, if flirtation or promiscuity are important traits for a character it should be reflected in their design.


And cleavage is the only way to do that, apparently. Nah.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Sorry, but in an art form where the default costume (for both men and women) is skintight spandex, a character kind of does have to show skin in order to be considered sexy or a femme fatale. Like, how are we supposed to know Selina is a flirtatious and openly sexual character if she's dressed essentially the same as The Flash or Cyclops?


Cats 90s costume was fully covered up but she was still a femme fatale  :Smile:  

Here's a link to tom's Twitter of this panel that launched a thousand ships at me lol. Look at all the positive responses. Did goggle cat elicit anything remotely similar?

https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status/873248761937580032

----------


## Atlanta96

> And cleavage is the only way to do that, apparently. Nah.


In an art form where most characters wear skintight clothing, it kind of is. We've already been over this. You can't dress a character like everyone else and expect them to stand out as a sex symbol.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> And cleavage is the only way to do that, apparently. Nah.


The way she looks and the way she acts. Those panels I shared with you re Nocenti's run, there's no way anyone would consider that a femme fatale.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Cats 90s costume was fully covered up but she was still a femme fatale  
> 
> Here's a link to tom's Twitter of this panel that launched a thousand ships at me lol. Look at all the positive responses. Did goggle cat elicit anything remotely similar?
> 
> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status/873248761937580032


Well when you've got someone like Jim Balent on art duty...

That guy could have drawn Selina in 19th century Church garb and still make it look hyper-sexualized.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Well when you've got someone like Jim Balent on art duty...
> 
> That guy could have drawn Selina in 19th century Church garb and still make it look hyper-sexualized.


Lol. True. But the panel that everyone is in love with is by Janin. And he does justice to it. Not over like Jim or under like everybody else. I had to laugh at the wolf whistle cartoon response. Hadn't seen anything like that in a long time directed at Cats

----------


## Caivu

> In an art form where most characters wear skintight clothing, it kind of is. We've already been over this. You can't dress a character like everyone else and expect them to stand out as a sex symbol.


This can be accomplished in other ways. Body type. Body _language_. Facial design.




> The way she looks and the way she acts. Those panels I shared with you re Nocenti's run, there's no way anyone would consider that a femme fatale.


Guess I'm just weird then, because I sure do.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> This can be accomplished in other ways. Body type. Body _language_. Facial design.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I'm just weird then, because I sure do.


Let's put it up for a vote so it's more than you and me  :Wink:

----------


## Atlanta96

> This can be accomplished in other ways. Body type. Body _language_. Facial design.


The average comic book character (male or female) is drawn to be extremely attractive. 90% of heroes probably fall under the category of "attractive face and body type". Again, you're referring to the default. If you think sexy characters are bad for comics just admit it.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> This can be accomplished in other ways. Body type. Body _language_. Facial design.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I'm just weird then, because I sure do.


The Cooke suit is just _boring_, forget sex appeal, you can only look at something for so long before getting tired of it.

----------


## The Kid

I agree with the consensus here. I think it's time Selina gets a costume update

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I agree with the consensus here. I think it's time Selina gets a costume update


I believe she got one with Genevieve. It made the cowl cover more of the side of her face. 

What she needs is costume overhaul not just update.

I'm good with 90s costume or TDKRises one (as darkseidpwns suggests)

I would love to see purple skirt make a cameo in Kings run (maybe at rehearsal dinner or something) but even I think that could never make a permanent comeback because impractical. I love it though. This one especially by Jillian Temaki

image.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> The average comic book character (male or female) is drawn to be extremely attractive. 90% of heroes probably fall under the category of "attractive face and body type". Again, you're referring to the default. If you think sexy characters are bad for comics just admit it.


There's a difference, though. Sexiness isn't just about looks, it's partially about one's attitude. Characters like Catwoman and Ivy tend to act flirty and so forth because it makes sense for their characters, and that would be true regardless of how they're dressed. And of course there are different varities of sexiness; Catwoman's is just one type.

----------


## Atlanta96

> There's a difference, though. Sexiness isn't just about looks, it's partially about one's attitude. Characters like Catwoman and Ivy tend to act flirty and so forth because it makes sense for their characters, and that would be true regardless of how they're dressed. And of course there are different varities of sexiness; Catwoman's is just one type.


LOL flirtatious=/=sexy. Look up scenes from About Schmidt featuring Cathy Bates and you'll know what I mean. Please stop trying to pass off the most generic, utalitarian takes on Catwoman as "sexy". It's bad for the character and it's not what most readers want anyway.

----------


## Caivu

> LOL flirtatious=/=sexy.


Um:




> Like, how are we supposed to know Selina is *a flirtatious and openly sexual character* if she's dressed essentially the same as The Flash or Cyclops?


But no, flirty doesn't necessarily mean sexy. Never said it did.




> Please stop trying to pass off the most generic, utalitarian takes on Catwoman as "sexy". It's bad for the character and it's not what most readers want anyway.


 :Confused:  I seriously don't know what you mean here.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Um:
> 
> 
> 
> But no, flirty doesn't necessarily mean sexy. Never said it did.
> 
> 
> 
>  I seriously don't know what you mean here.


It sounds like you're offended by any costume that isn't completely modest, and are trying to justify boring, sex-less takes on the character as "sexy" so you don't come off as morally conservative.

----------


## Tuck

Seems like there's a lot of begging the question here.  DC hasn't stopped using a sexy Selina.  It just perhaps isn't to your particular liking.

And in fact, I actually think the short hair is sexier on her.  It allows more concentration on the face, where probably the majority of "sexy" occurs (particularly the eyes when done well), and the neck and shoulders, where a lot of sensuous body language occurs, and the absence of long locks allows for a more nuanced depiction here.

It's fine not to be partial to it yourself, but it doesn't mean DC is being Victorian or making Selina un-sexy or that a preponderance of casuals have invaded the clubhouse and redecorated.




> But comics are a visual medium, if flirtation or *promiscuity* are important traits for a character it should be reflected in their design.


Promiscuity?  WTF?  :Confused:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Seems like there's a lot of begging the question here.  DC hasn't stopped using a sexy Selina.  It just perhaps isn't to your particular liking.
> 
> And in fact, I actually think the short hair is sexier on her.  It allows more concentration on the face, where probably the majority of "sexy" occurs (particularly the eyes when done well), and the neck and shoulders, where a lot of sensuous body language occurs, and the absence of long locks allows for a more nuanced depiction here.
> 
> It's fine not to be partial to it yourself, but it doesn't mean DC is being Victorian or making Selina un-sexy or that a preponderance of casuals have invaded the clubhouse and redecorated.
> 
> 
> 
> Promiscuity?  WTF?


Selina is a somewhat promiscuous character. I don't see how that is a "WTF" moment.

----------


## Caivu

> It sounds like you're offended by any costume that isn't completely modest, and are trying to justify boring, sex-less takes on the character as "sexy" so you don't come off as morally conservative.


That couldn't be further from the truth. I just think that showing skin isn't the only way to show a character is sexy. It's just an obvious, not terribly creative way.

----------


## Tuck

> Selina is a somewhat promiscuous character. I don't see how that is a "WTF" moment.


By serial fiction standards?

----------


## Frontier

> And in fact, I actually think the short hair is sexier on her.  It allows more concentration on the face, where probably the majority of "sexy" occurs (particularly the eyes when done well), and the neck and shoulders, where a lot of sensuous body language occurs, and the absence of long locks allows for a more nuanced depiction here.


I don't think you need short hair to have that effect. I mean, beyond the mask which covers all her hair to begin, with long or short, _Batman: The Telltale Series_ was able to convey basically the same look by having her be in a ponytail most of the time. 

But I also think long hair can accentuate a characters' facial features, but that's just me...

----------


## Atlanta96

> That couldn't be further from the truth. I just think that showing skin isn't the only way to show a character is sexy. It's just an obvious, not terribly creative way.


Yeah you don't have a problem with showing skin, you just think it's obvious and not creative. See what I mean? It's sounds like your using euphemisms for "stupid" when talking about these designs.

----------


## Caivu

> Yeah you don't have a problem with showing skin, you just think it's obvious and not creative. See what I mean? It's sounds like your using euphemisms for "stupid" when talking about these designs.


Please stop putting words in my mouth.

"Obvious" and "uncreative" are not synonyms for "stupid".

----------


## Tuck

> I don't think you need short hair to have that effect. I mean, beyond the mask which covers all her hair to begin, with long or short, _Batman: The Telltale Series_ was able to convey basically the same look by having her be in a ponytail most of the time. 
> 
> But I also think long hair can accentuate a characters' facial features, but that's just me...


The artist in in control of the character's face shape.  Longer faces are helped by being framed by long hair.  Rounder faces don't need it.  (Head size in relation to the body and neck length are also factors . . . but again, all in the artist's control.)

In real life, only some women can really pull off short hair.  But some of them can _really_ pull it off.  And sometimes they look better than with long hair, like Halle Berry in my opinion.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Please stop putting words in my mouth.
> 
> "Obvious" and "uncreative" are not synonyms for "stupid".


*euphemisms

----------


## Frontier

> *euphemisms


That doesn't sound anymore accurate either  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Caivu

> *euphemisms


Same thing applies.

----------


## brucekent12

To me, what looks sexy depends n the artist's interpetation of the character.  I think Selina looks hot with the short hair, Harley looks good with long hair!

----------


## WontonGirl

> But comics are a visual medium, if flirtation or promiscuity are important traits for a character it should be reflected in their design.


I know I am just catching up to the comics but I never got the impression that Selina was promiscuous. 

As far as her outfit, well I mean they make the boobs on some of these female characters bigger than their own heads.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Cats 90s costume was fully covered up but she was still a femme fatale  
> 
> Here's a link to tom's Twitter of this panel that launched a thousand ships at me lol. Look at all the positive responses. Did goggle cat elicit anything remotely similar?
> 
> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status/873248761937580032


She is so stunning here. I could see why Bats would "chase her all night", lol!

----------


## WontonGirl

So my question is then, what do the fans or readers want? Do they want a sexier Selina? A harder Selina? I mean, what's going on? And I mean the fans period, not just the Catwoman fans. 

And also, is there a difference in how the female fans view her vs the male fans? That seems to be at play with a lot of discussions that Female bloggers (and fans) have about the female characters. Hence part of the reason why there was such a severe backlash against Catwoman cover and complaints about some of Harley's looks from N52. 

Also, what kind of character they want Selina to be now? Somebody mentioned she had a drop in popularity. Okay, so what's going on? I know DC comics is about making money BUT does DC Comics still like her? Do writers like her? Do they want her to be a love interest finally OR want her to be an anti-hero. Are they going to domestic her OR kill her off? 

Seems like there is a generational thing going on here too. That pic on Tom King's page got a lot of praise, even on blogs. But I notice these are a lot of Pre-N52 fans as well. Maybe even Pre-Morrison. Nevertheless, fans loved that pic. 

So can somebody start giving me answers to these questions? LOL! How do we get Catwoman back on track? Or she really off track? I see Harley has taken a dip now too. Now people talking about WW. Is Wonder Woman the new "it" girl now for DC? Does Batgirl got next?

----------


## Atlanta96

> So my question is then, what do the fans or readers want? Do they want a sexier Selina? A harder Selina? I mean, what's going on? And I mean the fans period, not just the Catwoman fans. 
> 
> And also, is there a difference in how the female fans view her vs the male fans? That seems to be at play with a lot of discussions that Female bloggers (and fans) have about the female characters. Hence part of the reason why there was such a severe backlash against Catwoman cover and complaints about some of Harley's looks from N52. 
> 
> Also, what kind of character they want Selina to be now? Somebody mentioned she had a drop in popularity. Okay, so what's going on? I know DC comics is about making money BUT does DC Comics still like her? Do writers like her? Do they want her to be a love interest finally OR want her to be an anti-hero. Are they going to domestic her OR kill her off? 
> 
> Seems like there is a generational thing going on here too. That pic on Tom King's page got a lot of praise, even on blogs. But I notice these are a lot of Pre-N52 fans as well. Maybe even Pre-Morrison. Nevertheless, fans loved that pic. 
> 
> So can somebody start giving me answers to these questions? LOL! How do we get Catwoman back on track? Or she really off track? I see Harley has taken a dip now too. Now people talking about WW. Is Wonder Woman the new "it" girl now for DC? Does Batgirl got next?


Above all, they want a well written Selina. They want a Catwoman who is energetic and fun, as opposed to the painfully edgy and/or dull Catwoman stories of the New 52. I don't know many readers who've been happy with her creative direction for the last few years. Hopefully future plans for Selina will bring her out of this ditch.

Aesthetically, I think it's safe to say most Catwoman fans don't hold the belief that cleavage is evil or revealing outfits are the work of the devil. I think they'd have been fine with Guillem March's hyper-sexualized take on the character if it wasn't for the crap writing. It actually sold pretty well for a time. Not great, but it was the most successful Catwoman comic of the past 10 years as far as I know so it was doing something right. Best way to approach a new series would probably be pairing another racy, sensual artist with a better writer.

----------


## WontonGirl

Sorry, was trying to delete this post but I just edited it.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Above all, they want a well written Selina. They want a Catwoman who is energetic and fun, as opposed to the painfully edgy and/or dull Catwoman stories of the New 52. I don't know many readers who've been happy with her creative direction for the last few years. Hopefully future plans for Selina will bring her out of this ditch.
> 
> Aesthetically, I think it's safe to say most Catwoman fans don't hold the belief that cleavage is evil or revealing outfits are the work of the devil. I think they'd have been fine with Guillem March's hyper-sexualized take on the character if it wasn't for the crap writing. It actually sold pretty well for a time. Not great, but it was the most successful Catwoman comic of the past 10 years as far as I know so it was doing something right. Best way to approach a new series would probably be pairing another racy, sensual artist with a better writer.


Let's take out N52. Was N52 the reason for the drop? Or was some of this happening along with Morrison's run too? 

Also what about the non-Catwoman book readers? I mean, I get if you are a hardcore fan, you will get her comics BUT if you are a regular Batman fan who is just reading his main titles, do those fans share the same sentiment? 

And who is Ann Nonecti? Or is it Valentine who is the devil? Which one is the devil? LOL!

----------


## Tuck

> And who is Ann Nonecti? Or is it Valentine who is the devil? Which one is the devil? LOL!


Valentine's run is acclaimed.  But it's dissonant.  Some fans don't like it because it doesn't feel like a Catwoman story . . . which is fair.  (But it's not like fans were excited about the series prior to Valentine.)

----------


## WontonGirl

> Valentine's run is acclaimed.  But it's dissonant.  Some fans don't like it because it doesn't feel like a Catwoman story . . . which is fair.  (But it's not like fans were excited about the series prior to Valentine.)


Hey, I would love to get your take on some of my questions  :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> Valentine's run is acclaimed.  But it's dissonant.  Some fans don't like it because it doesn't feel like a Catwoman story . . . which is fair.  (But it's not like fans were excited about the series prior to Valentine.)


I think that was part of my own issues with the run, as well as Valentine's voice for Selina, even if I thought it was very interesting on a technical and story level. 

Though I think it improved a little once Selina actually became Catwoman again.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Valentine's run is acclaimed.  But it's dissonant.  Some fans don't like it because it doesn't feel like a Catwoman story . . . which is fair.  (But it's not like fans were excited about the series prior to Valentine.)


Well it was a financial failure so...

----------


## Tuck

> Hey, I would love to get your take on some of my questions


I don't think the character's broken.

Sometimes you get mediocre runs.  DC had a lot of bad ideas for New 52, and I'm honestly not sure what they were going for with some of the amped up sexual stuff.  It was like they partnered up with Spike TV and Mt. Dew and let out their 13-year old fanfic writer to concoct some Bizarro-world meathead feminism.

----------


## Tuck

> Well it was a financial failure so...


They needed to try _something_.  In either case, it's where a consistent quality finally showed up.  And the final few issues afterward were good as well.

EDIT:  Although, I believe Snyder did just dump that status quo on them because it served Eternal.

----------


## WontonGirl

But again, what are the answers to some of my questions. 

The reason why I'm asking is because I want to know from people who are not shippers or N52 fans. 

I mean, you got the fans that want more Damian in the Batbooks, saying TK is focusing on Selina too much. 

You got the fans that want MORE Bat/Cat saying it wasn't built up enough. 

You got the Catwoman fans who want another solo. 

Now you got an actually Catwoman fan writing a Batbook so some people are upset because again, not enough "Damian", at least what I am seeing on THESE boards. 

So what is the general take from the fans? Does DC Comics still like Catwoman? Do they hate her? Do they want to secretly kill her off? LOL! Did she take a hit after Brubaker or did she take a hit after Road Home/GSC and all those books were over? 

Should we get Dini to take a stab at her? Can she become a "Dinah" rather people thinking she will become a Lois?

----------


## Tuck

Well, Brubaker is the gold standard.  That's just part of an ongoing series.  Ups and downs.  And fandom is always going to be some contingent somewhere who isn't being serviced at one time or another.

She's one of DC's most iconic and popular characters, so they're going to try to make use of her.  But her history is as a supporting character.  If she can't carry a solo for a period of time, that's not a lack of popularity necessarily.  I mean, how do you measure that anyway?  Black Canary's book was canceled and hasn't been renewed, but she's in three ongoing series right now.

Catwoman's one of my favorite DC characters, but I read her solo stuff intermittently.  Dynamics are a bigger deal than people sometimes consider.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well, Brubaker is the gold standard.  That's just part of an ongoing series.  Ups and downs.  And fandom is always going to be some contingent somewhere who isn't being serviced at one time or another.
> 
> She's one of DC's most iconic and popular characters, so they're going to try to make use of her.  But her history is as a supporting character.  If she can't carry a solo for a period of time, that's not a lack of popularity necessarily.  I mean, how do you measure that anyway?  Black Canary's book was canceled and hasn't been renewed, but she's in three ongoing series right now.
> 
> Catwoman's one of my favorite DC characters, but I read her solo stuff intermittently.  Dynamics are a bigger deal than people sometimes consider.


Well I guess they are looking at sales and saying that if its not selling, then it's (or the character) is not as popular and cheaper to put her in other ongoing series. But that doesn't necessarily mean the character is not popular. Like the Batgirl animated movie was cancelled because the Wonder Woman animated movie didn't do well. So they said that the female comic leads don't sell as much. But we know that Wonder Woman is a popular character. 

So I know she is iconic and popular, especially to non-comic book readers BUT to the comic book readers. Wonder Woman, Lois Lane and Catwoman are the "classic age" iconic characters. Everybody knows these characters.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well it was a financial failure so...


Could that had been because by the time her run came, so many fans had dropped the book?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Could that had been because by the time her run came, so many fans had dropped the book?


I think it's because it looked painfully bland.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think it's because it looked painfully bland.


Yeah. Well I guess if it sold more or decent then we would have VOL 5.

----------


## CryNotWolf

I don't know how anyone can dislike the Cooke design. It's near-perfect IMO, especially for post-Brubaker Selina (in which she has thrived). It's simple, bold, striking, sexy, and unapologetic, and maintains a streak of cape glamour all the while remaining useful and not looking completely crazy. It straddles the line between ridiculous and logical and hits the sweet spot that none of her older costumes ever could. The goggles are what really tie the look together, and she looks 100x better with clunky boots instead of high heels. A lot of Selina's development as a character in the past 15 or so years have shown her to be a pretty sane and self-aware woman, and as such I don't think going back to wearing a bright purple gown with long flowing hair and a cat-tail would do the character as we know her today any kind of justice.

The short hair is perfect also. It's utilitarian, sporty, and low-maintenance, perfect for her incredibly active and on-the-go lifestyle, while still being incredibly sexy and stylish when she needs to class it up. Honestly I think most truly beautiful women just look better with short hair. I don't know why, I think it just draws more attention to their best features and frames the face better instead of distracting with long, elaborate hair.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Well it was a financial failure so...


What are you implying here? The run didn't sell like hotcakes, true. But that's because 1. DC didn't do much to market it. 2. Nocenti had done everything in her power to destroy people's faith in the book, and 3. Valentine was an unknown, and kinda still is.

Also the DCYou era in general was just a big failure.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Valentine run started before DC You actually but sales is not a fair criticism against that book. Still she kept the sales consistent, see the drop immediaty after she left. Not even Snyder could have saved that book after 3 years of non stop rubbish.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Valentine run started before DC You actually but sales is not a fair criticism against that book. Still she kept the sales consistent, see the drop immediaty after she left. Not even Snyder could have saved that book after 3 years of non stop rubbish.


Is Synder a Catwoman fan?

----------


## WontonGirl

But again, the question: 

Do any of you all know what DC Comics thinks of her? Or really thinks of her? Like for example, I get that this is all about sales so that's one of the reasons why Harley became the new "It" girl but what are the general thoughts of Catwoman over there? Does anybody know?

Do writers like including her in the Bat books?

----------


## Frontier

> I don't know how anyone can dislike the Cooke design. It's near-perfect IMO, especially for post-Brubaker Selina (in which she has thrived). It's simple, bold, striking, sexy, and unapologetic, and maintains a streak of cape glamour all the while remaining useful and not looking completely crazy. It straddles the line between ridiculous and logical and hits the sweet spot that none of her older costumes ever could. The goggles are what really tie the look together, and she looks 100x better with clunky boots instead of high heels. A lot of Selina's development as a character in the past 15 or so years have shown her to be a pretty sane and self-aware woman, and as such I don't think going back to wearing a bright purple gown with long flowing hair and a cat-tail would do the character as we know her today any kind of justice.
> 
> The short hair is perfect also. It's utilitarian, sporty, and low-maintenance, perfect for her incredibly active and on-the-go lifestyle, while still being incredibly sexy and stylish when she needs to class it up. Honestly I think most truly beautiful women just look better with short hair. I don't know why, I think it just draws more attention to their best features and frames the face better instead of distracting with long, elaborate hair.


Well, obviously different people are going to have different tastes and takes on a specific costume or look for a character. 

Obviously there's a lot of sense that went into Selina's redesign by Cooke for Brubaker's run, but I won't begrudge someone if they prefer another design because they feel like it's a stronger look visually. Like how I prefer her B:TAS or _The Batman_ designs for that reason. 

I think how well the current costume looks depends a lot on the artist and how it's depicted, with some takes being stronger then others, as well as how they stylize or try and make the look as dynamic as possible.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> But again, the question: 
> 
> Do any of you all know what DC Comics thinks of her? Or really thinks of her? Like for example, I get that this is all about sales so that's one of the reasons why Harley became the new "It" girl but what are the general thoughts of Catwoman over there? Does anybody know?
> 
> Do writers like including her in the Bat books?


I don't really understand what you're asking. DC doesn't have any kind of mission statement on Catwoman. DC is also not just one person.

They liked her enough to give her solo work for the majority of the past 30 years. She got a 75-year celebration book. She's been a player in many of Batman's most popular stories (Hush, Long Halloween, Year One, the list goes on and on). She's also one of the most iconic figures in Batman's mythos, and one of the most iconic female characters in cape comics in general, which makes her important regardless of whether or not she currently has a solo.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I don't really understand what you're asking. DC doesn't have any kind of mission statement on Catwoman. DC is also not just one person.
> 
> They liked her enough to give her solo work for the majority of the past 30 years. She got a 75-year celebration book. She's been a player in many of Batman's most popular stories (Hush, Long Halloween, Year One, the list goes on and on). She's also one of the most iconic figures in Batman's mythos, and one of the most iconic female characters in cape comics in general, which makes her important regardless of whether or not she currently has a solo.


Sorry, I guess what I mean by that is a lot of fans felt that she has not been really treated well by DC Comics. How she has been pushed to the background the past few years in the main titles AND also how her last Cat Volume got such bad writers and storylines (fans words). I mean, someone said it here just a few post ago about her popularity taking a dip. There has to be a reason why? 

Now of course, a lot of these complaints tend to come from "shippers" BUT I will say that it seems like Harley Quinn kind of pushed ahead of Cat (and WW) in the past couple of years. And of course, DC Comics capitalizes on that. She is various books, she has her own book, SS, video games, she's NOW seen as a positive character, now she is an "anti-hero". 

Vs. Cat who "they" say seems to be continuously pushed as a "selfish" character or a "villain", she doesn't show up in the DCAU (animated), her "romance" with Bats is not like it used ot be, etc, etc. 

So I'm asking you all as *Cat fans*; are these just the complaints of shippers? Or are some of these complaints justified? Remember, I'm catching up so I don't know....

----------


## millernumber1

> Sorry, I guess what I mean by that is a lot of fans felt that she has not been really treated well by DC Comics. How she has been pushed to the background the past few years in the main titles AND also how her last Cat Volume got such bad writers and storylines (fans words). I mean, someone said it here just a few post ago about her popularity taking a dip. There has to be a reason why? 
> 
> Now of course, a lot of these complaints tend to come from "shippers" BUT I will say that it seems like Harley Quinn kind of pushed ahead of Cat (and WW) in the past couple of years. And of course, DC Comics capitalizes on that. She is various books, she has her own book, SS, video games, she's NOW seen as a positive character, now she is an "anti-hero". 
> 
> Vs. Cat who "they" say seems to be continuously pushed as a "selfish" character or a "villain", she doesn't show up in the DCAU (animated), her "romance" with Bats is not like it used ot be, etc, etc. 
> 
> So I'm asking you all as *Cat fans*; are these just the complaints of shippers? Or are some of these complaints justified? Remember, I'm catching up so I don't know....


I'm a bit confused. I'm not a huge Catwoman follower, but I have really liked several of her storylines, especially the recent mob boss storyline by Genevieve Valentine - but I know that one was very divisive, especially with long-time Catwoman fans. But even in that atypical story, Selina wasn't a selfish character - she was a heroic figure in an evil world, forced to compromise.  Now, her upcoming spate of appearances in Birds of Prey, Batgirl, and other titles that I've seen in solicits seem like DC may be taking her in a more antagonistic route - but it seems to me that with Tom King's direction, Selina is one of the most important Bat-family women again, after a year where she wasn't really around, and the year before that, where the n52 had run her book into the ground, and even critical acclaim for the Valentine run wasn't enough to bring numbers up.

----------


## Tuck

> Now of course, a lot of these complaints tend to come from "shippers" BUT I will say that it seems like Harley Quinn kind of pushed ahead of Cat (and WW) in the past couple of years.


Harley's popularity has a number of contributing factors, often from outside the comics themselves.  But in the comics world, she's helped by both the fact that her book isn't in canon, which is freeing, and Connor and Palmiotti are just putting out a silly, fun book that is essentially what Lobo used to be for DC.  You're not getting this panel in Catwoman's own book:



I'm behind on Wonder Woman, but Rucka's run has been one of the best Rebirth runs.

----------


## Atlanta96

DC isn't beyond conspiring against characters they don't like. But I don't think they're conspiring against Catwoman, I think they want her to succeed but have no idea what to do with her. They tried racy and over the top Selina, it didn't work. They tried a more toned down and serious take, it didn't work. I have no idea what they're planning to do with her next, but i doubt she'll be as popular as she once was anytime soon.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm a bit confused. I'm not a huge Catwoman follower, but I have really liked several of her storylines, especially the recent mob boss storyline by Genevieve Valentine - but I know that one was very divisive, especially with long-time Catwoman fans. But even in that atypical story, Selina wasn't a selfish character - she was a heroic figure in an evil world, forced to compromise.  Now, her upcoming spate of appearances in Birds of Prey, Batgirl, and other titles that I've seen in solicits seem like DC may be taking her in a more antagonistic route - but it seems to me that with Tom King's direction, Selina is one of the most important Bat-family women again, after a year where she wasn't really around, and the year before that, where the n52 had run her book into the ground, and even critical acclaim for the Valentine run wasn't enough to bring numbers up.


And that's probably part of the problem. They need to keep her one way continuous. I mean don't let her be Team Bats in the main title but then maybe a "villain" in a title like Batgirl or Birds of Prey that has a lot of fans outside of just Batman. These are proabably female fans, younger to young 20's fans and this confuses them, especially if they are not reading the Bat books. 

Some fans would be like, "why is Bat marrying a villain"? When you spread a character out, that's an opportunity for the character to gain more fans.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Sorry, I guess what I mean by that is a lot of fans felt that she has not been really treated well by DC Comics. How she has been pushed to the background the past few years in the main titles AND also how her last Cat Volume got such bad writers and storylines (fans words). I mean, someone said it here just a few post ago about her popularity taking a dip. There has to be a reason why? 
> 
> Now of course, a lot of these complaints tend to come from "shippers" BUT I will say that it seems like Harley Quinn kind of pushed ahead of Cat (and WW) in the past couple of years. And of course, DC Comics capitalizes on that. She is various books, she has her own book, SS, video games, she's NOW seen as a positive character, now she is an "anti-hero". 
> 
> Vs. Cat who "they" say seems to be continuously pushed as a "selfish" character or a "villain", she doesn't show up in the DCAU (animated), her "romance" with Bats is not like it used ot be, etc, etc. 
> 
> So I'm asking you all as *Cat fans*; are these just the complaints of shippers? Or are some of these complaints justified? Remember, I'm catching up so I don't know....


Well its rather obvious, the last several years also councide the rise of Bat/Cat as the OTP. Cat has to be portrayed as selfish to generate drama and create contrast.

----------


## yohyoi

If Catwoman does marry Batman, how long do you think the marriage will last? Rebirth will most likely end by early next year. Even with the double shipping, the engagement and marriage needs to be done by 10-16 issues.

Tom King said The War of Jokes and Riddles is a prelude to his biggest book. Will Tom King write a Batman/Catwoman book/arc? Maybe detailing their engagement and preparation for the marriage. I like the sound of Selina Kyle, Catwoman, Wife of Batman.

Lastly, do you think Tom King will continue writing Batman after Rebirth?

----------


## WontonGirl

> DC isn't beyond conspiring against characters they don't like. But I don't think they're conspiring against Catwoman, I think they want her to succeed but have no idea what to do with her. They tried racy and over the top Selina, it didn't work. They tried a more toned down and serious take, it didn't work. I have no idea what they're planning to do with her next, but i doubt she'll be as popular as she once was anytime soon.


And there it is. Perhaps DC Comics do not know what to do with her. I think that's it. It's like the fact that she is NOT a villain but more of an anti-hero or "vague rogue" is both a blessing and a curse. 

A blessing in that it makes her a good team member for various team and love interest for Batman. 

A curse in that over time, she can lose some of the spunk and some fans may feel she might become domesticated as a "straight" love interest, like the other love interests. 

I think DC Comics needs to figure out what kind of Catwoman they want. Do they want an Earth 2 Catwoman who is the love interest and is fighting along side Bats and protecting the ignored? That's not hard to do. She can do that in her own book and show up and do that in Bat books or Batgirl books. 

Or do they want the grey, in the middle, "thief with a heart of gold" criminal that sometimes helps Bats and sometimes is getting chased by Bats. 

Or a straight up villain? 

Make up your mind and then find writers to do it. I think Tom King would be fantastic at writing a Catwoman run. He loves that character and I think he would do her justice in writing stories where she is the protector and fans tuning back into the book that translates into sales.

----------


## darkseidpwns

What is the length and structure of this Jokes story? I heard Janin will draw the main arc consisting of 6 issues with a 2 issue epilogue focusing on a D list villain. Or is it 8 issues of Janin and 2 issues with the other artist.

----------


## WontonGirl

> If Catwoman does marry Batman, how long do you think the marriage will last? Rebirth will most likely end by early next year. Even with the double shipping, the engagement and marriage needs to be done by 10-16 issues.
> 
> Tom King said The War of Jokes and Riddles is a prelude to his biggest book. Will Tom King write a Batman/Catwoman book/arc? Maybe detailing their engagement and preparation for the marriage. I like the sound of Selina Kyle, Catwoman, Wife of Batman.
> 
> Lastly, do you think Tom King will continue writing Batman after Rebirth?


Why would Rebirth end by early next year?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well its rather obvious, the last several years also councide the rise of Bat/Cat as the OTP. Cat has to be portrayed as selfish to generate drama and create contrast.


The last several years? Try the last 75 years. 

If anything, shippers are complaining that the last few years, Bat/Cat has been almost erased and ignored. I mean at least under Morrison's run, there were tie-ins that featured them but N52, if there was any Bat/Cat it was with AU stories. In N52, they were in each other's orbit but nowhere near the intensity and emotional bonding of years prior. 

Now I just got back into the comics and catching up and even I can sense that.

----------


## WontonGirl

> If Catwoman does marry Batman, how long do you think the marriage will last? Rebirth will most likely end by early next year. Even with the double shipping, the engagement and marriage needs to be done by 10-16 issues.
> 
> Tom King said The War of Jokes and Riddles is a prelude to his biggest book. Will Tom King write a Batman/Catwoman book/arc? Maybe detailing their engagement and preparation for the marriage. I like the sound of Selina Kyle, Catwoman, Wife of Batman.
> 
> Lastly, do you think Tom King will continue writing Batman after Rebirth?


If he does, he better bring back Damian in the Bat book again because those Damian fans will be beyond pissed! Some of them on this board are already upset that Damian hasn't been featured in the Bat books that much because he is Robin. So whatever Tom King does with Bat/Cat, he's going to have to bring Robin back in, ASAP.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> DC isn't beyond conspiring against characters they don't like. But I don't think they're conspiring against Catwoman, I think they want her to succeed but have no idea what to do with her. They tried racy and over the top Selina, it didn't work. They tried a more toned down and serious take, it didn't work. I have no idea what they're planning to do with her next, but i doubt she'll be as popular as she once was anytime soon.


I don't think that's a fair assessment. I don't think that over the top Catwoman didn't work because of the angle specifically, but more along the lines of Selina being the victim of an absurd amount of character regression under Winick which led to a lot of negative word-of-mouth from fans that snowballed even more during Nocenti's garbage run. Catwoman also barely showed up in any Batman books at all in New 52, and besides her awesome Batman and Robin issue, all her appearances were awfully written. So when Valentine came in with her more "serious take", it was an uphill battle with the Catwoman book being considered something of a joke for so long. Also nobody knew who Valentine was and Catwoman didn't really receive much help from DC (they were too busy advertising DCYou everywhere). It's not a problem of the character, but the way she was handled.

Also Tom King's Batman is popularizing her, especially if her and Bruce actually do end up getting married. Also don't forget the Gotham City Sirens movie that was already announced.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't think that's a fair assessment. I don't think that over the top Catwoman didn't work because of the angle specifically, but more along the lines of Selina being the victim of an absurd amount of character regression under Winick which led to a lot of negative word-of-mouth from fans that snowballed even more during Nocenti's garbage run. Catwoman also barely showed up in any Batman books at all in New 52, and besides her awesome Batman and Robin issue, all her appearances were awfully written. So when Valentine came in with her more "serious take", it was an uphill battle with the Catwoman book being considered something of a joke for so long. Also nobody knew who Valentine was and Catwoman didn't really receive much help from DC (they were too busy advertising DCYou everywhere). It's not a problem of the character, but the way she was handled.
> 
> Also Tom King's Batman is popularizing her, especially if her and Bruce actually do end up getting married. Also don't forget the Gotham City Sirens movie that was already announced.


I never said there was anything wrong with the character. You missed the point.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I don't think that's a fair assessment. I don't think that over the top Catwoman didn't work because of the angle specifically, but more along the lines of Selina being the victim of an absurd amount of character regression under Winick which led to a lot of negative word-of-mouth from fans that snowballed even more during Nocenti's garbage run. Catwoman also barely showed up in any Batman books at all in New 52, and besides her awesome Batman and Robin issue, all her appearances were awfully written. So when Valentine came in with her more "serious take", it was an uphill battle with the Catwoman book being considered something of a joke for so long. Also nobody knew who Valentine was and Catwoman didn't really receive much help from DC (they were too busy advertising DCYou everywhere). It's not a problem of the character, but the way she was handled.
> 
> Also Tom King's Batman is popularizing her, especially if her and Bruce actually do end up getting married. Also don't forget the Gotham City Sirens movie that was already announced.


THIS POST RIGHT HERE! 

Yes, from what I can see, 3 things happened: 

1) Her presence was diminished under Morrison and the N52 in main titles

2) Cat books were not good for Volume 4 which was the nail on the coffin because she was barely in any Bat books. 

3) Lack of presence with the Animated movies that came out. There was nothing in mass media or animation that was drawing people back to this character in the comics; nothing that was saying, "I want to check her out in the comics". You see this is going on now with the WW books and an interest in Steve Trevor. 

Out of sight, out of mind.

----------


## Tuck

She was in Batman Eternal, Amanda Waller's Justice League (with Steve Trevor), was a prominent character in Forever Evil, and showed up a few times in Batman/Superman.

She was out there.

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## WontonGirl

> Also Tom King's Batman is popularizing her, especially if her and Bruce actually do end up getting married. Also don't forget the Gotham City Sirens movie that was already announced.


I hope so but keep in mind that OUTSIDE of the comic book world, Catwoman IS still beloved and worshipped, LOL! Especially for the over 28 crowd. She has a lot of 16-25 year old fans too. Mainstream fans, casual book readers and casual comic book readers; they all still love Catwoman. Especially Gen X because we grew up with a fantastic Catwoman and had great stories to read back all the way till 1940. 

When Jimmy Fallon made that joke about Batman & Robin last week and announced Batman proposed to Catwoman, that audience was "oohing and aahing" like school girls, LOL! But I am willing to bet that most of that audience are NOT reading the comic books so that plays into it. 

So if Tom King is making her popular again, I say yeah!  :Big Grin:

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## WontonGirl

> She was in Batman Eternal, Amanda Waller's Justice League (with Steve Trevor), was a prominent character in Forever Evil, and showed up a few times in Batman/Superman.
> 
> She was out there.


You are right! She was out there and I think I said in my post on another page that during N52, she was in a lot of AU stories or tie-ins. 

But she was NOT in the main Bat titles (barely), her character in the main titles was not really a criminal, not really an anti-hero just kinda there AND the emotional and deep connection she had with Bats was not there, not really. 

Plus she didn't know Batman's secret identity for the main titles right? That right there is different. In the tie-ins and AU stories, she did. 

She showed up more during Morrison's run and you KNOW he wasn't featuring her, LOL!

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## CryNotWolf

> I never said there was anything wrong with the character.


Where did I imply that you did? Looks like you're the one who missed the point. You glossed over the problems of her books, citing that angles taken with the character simply just "didn't work", and I was stating that it was a myriad of problems that contributed to the failure of the N52 Catwoman title (poor writing, lack of support from DC, etc), not the direction taken with the character. I'm pretty sure the guys over at DC are smart enough to know that the poor performance of the Catwoman title doesn't come down to something along the lines of "oh she was too serious, we can't have that."

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## WontonGirl

> She was in Batman Eternal


PS. I'm reading Batman Eternal right now. So far, I'm liking it.

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## Tuck

> AND the emotional and deep connection she had with Bats was not there, not really.


That played into the core of the Justice League run.  Waller's Justice League was put together as a government-controlled league with a team handpicked to counter the main Justice League's members.  Selina was put on the team specifically to help take down Batman if it became necessary; something she is shown to have zero intention of doing, and planned to screw over the group for him if necessary.

Eternal very much dealt with their relationship if you go back and read it.  The result of it putting her in the mob boss position and how that was revealed by Snyder in the Batman title maybe make it easier to forget that.

She's working closely with Batman during Forever Evil and is one of the people who is there when Dick "dies".

And the Batman/Superman stuff was more of the playful thing.

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## CryNotWolf

> She was in Batman Eternal, Amanda Waller's Justice League (with Steve Trevor), was a prominent character in Forever Evil, and showed up a few times in Batman/Superman.
> 
> She was out there.


Yeah as I said she was in a few things spread out over the course of several years, and as I also already said, in the vast majority of those appearances she wasn't particularly well-written.

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## Frontier

> She was in Batman Eternal, Amanda Waller's Justice League (with Steve Trevor), was a prominent character in Forever Evil, and showed up a few times in Batman/Superman.
> 
> She was out there.


On-top of being in the _Arkham_ games as well, as I recall.

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## Tuck

> On-top of being in the _Arkham_ games as well, as I recall.


Well, two of them at least.

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## millernumber1

> PS. I'm reading Batman Eternal right now. So far, I'm liking it.


Nice! It's the comic that got me back into comics after I left because of the n52. I think Selina is pretty cool in it, and if you read it and like Selina, I definitely recommend the Valentine run that spins off of it.

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## WontonGirl

> That played into the core of the Justice League run.  Waller's Justice League was put together as a government-controlled league with a team handpicked to counter the main Justice League's members.  Selina was put on the team specifically to help take down Batman if it became necessary; something she is shown to have zero intention of doing, and planned to screw over the group for him if necessary.
> 
> Eternal very much dealt with their relationship if you go back and read it.  The result of it putting her in the mob boss position and how that was revealed by Snyder in the Batman title maybe make it easier to forget that.
> 
> She's working closely with Batman during Forever Evil and is one of the people who is there when Dick "dies".
> 
> And the Batman/Superman stuff was more of the playful thing.


I know all of that. I am talking about the MAIN Bat books; Batman & Detective Comics. 

All those books plus World's Finest, yes we got that but in the main Bat books, she was barely there. That's what I am talking about. And it started really with Morrison because his emphasis was elsewhere.

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## WontonGirl

> On-top of being in the _Arkham_ games as well, as I recall.


Yeah but even in Arkham Games, some people had problems with her. Even Gamers like how some would question why she would do this because "Selina's too selfish to help Batman", that was a line of thought for a lot of gamers, especially ones that don't follow the books. And she wasn't the main love interests for all the games. Even in Telltales, she leaves at the end, or that's at least one of the choices. Injustice 2, she "breaks up with Bruce" which is weird after all she did for him in the comics, their reconciliation and being a main part of his team. I mean, these constant portrayals of her being this "selfish" person and it's getting pushed out into mainstream. She couldn't be in "Bad Blood" because she's not part of the BatFamily. I remember a comic back from the 70's where it was her and Robin (Dick) that went to rescue Batman some island he was on with the Al Ghuls and some drama they were involved in. 

Not too mentioned, they cut GCS short because of N52 right? 

She is a great team player, we see that and even in the few N52 titles she was in, we saw that her and Bats have a natural working chemistry. And of course, she was Team Suicide in Rebirth. But what is she in the upcoming Batgirl & Bane issues? Villian? Foe? "I'm still a thief please don't tell Batman"?

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## godisawesome

I think her general setup among the Bat-universe since the late 2000s, even in the darkest hours of the New 52, is that she's a dependable ally when the chips are down, yet still autonomous enough and with enough kleptomania all tendencies to remain a thief, even while she targets only those who can afford it and is arguably too much of a hastle to catch considering robbery is her main crime. Even in the 90's, when her run in her solo book was very much as a criminal protagonist first and foremost, she was enough of a professional asset to the Batfamily the employed her more than once, and I'm having trouble thinking of any story where she was the main villain or in any kind of serious opposition to the Batfamily.

Pretty much ever since COIE, Catwoman's shifted from proper supervillain into more of a Trickster archetype, and often into a clear example of an anti-heroine with a complex mix of pride, greed, and altruism; she's totally capable of stealing a jewel from a "robbery-proof" museum just to show she can, assist Batman for free in taking down a serial killer because he's harming innocent people, and stealing one of Batman's gadgets because she wants it. All in the same night. And I'd argue that's been the mainstream understanding of her since the 90's as well; cartoons, video games, and movies have largely portrayed her as someone whose actions lead to a net good in Gotham.

I kind if think the people who think she's too selfish to help people may be projecting a bit on her, particularly in video games; in Arkham City and Arkham Knight, a clear point is made that she's unwilling to abandon Batman to villains, so they may be just applying their own views on thievery to the character. Video Games are the media that generally depict economies run entirely on the looting of dead bodies and the ransacking of homes. :Cool:

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## WontonGirl

> I think her general setup among the Bat-universe since the late 2000s, even in the darkest hours of the New 52, is that she's a dependable ally when the chips are down, yet still autonomous enough and with enough kleptomania all tendencies to remain a thief, even while she targets only those who can afford it and is arguably too much of a hastle to catch considering robbery is her main crime. Even in the 90's, when her run in her solo book was very much as a criminal protagonist first and foremost, she was enough of a professional asset to the Batfamily the employed her more than once, and I'm having trouble thinking of any story where she was the main villain or in any kind of serious opposition to the Batfamily.
> 
> Pretty much ever since COIE, Catwoman's shifted from proper supervillain into more of a Trickster archetype, and often into a clear example of an anti-heroine with a complex mix of pride, greed, and altruism; she's totally capable of stealing a jewel from a "robbery-proof" museum just to show she can, assist Batman for free in taking down a serial killer because he's harming innocent people, and stealing one of Batman's gadgets because she wants it. All in the same night. And I'd argue that's been the mainstream understanding of her since the 90's as well; cartoons, video games, and movies have largely portrayed her as someone whose actions lead to a net good in Gotham.
> 
> I kind if think the people who think she's too selfish to help people may be projecting a bit on her, particularly in video games; in Arkham City and Arkham Knight, a clear point is made that she's unwilling to abandon Batman to villains, so they may be just applying their own views on thievery to the character. Video Games are the media that generally depict economies run entirely on the looting of dead bodies and the ransacking of homes.


Yes I think this is a good point. But also I was reading some older comics and it seems like she was also a character that would "go straight" for awhile as well. And when she really wanted to be on a right path as Selina, she would to Bruce Wayne for help. Of course, she didn't know that Bat and Bruce were the same person so her asking Bats to let her go because she had just a met a "nice fella named Bruce Wayne and wanted to go straight for him" is an interesting take on her character. But the early Golden Age Catwoman was interesting in herself. 

As far as other stuff, yeah I think there are just some people that of course just don't like Catwoman. She's not a Lois Lane where she is this "good and perfect love interest". She's not Wonder Woman, a true hero. I think some people really just see her as a thief or always flirting with Batman. N52 really further damaged her because some people would be like "she's always f**king Batman" and slut shammed her. I mean, that just seemed kinda harsh.

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## darkseidpwns

> I know all of that. I am talking about the MAIN Bat books; Batman & Detective Comics. 
> 
> All those books plus World's Finest, yes we got that but in the main Bat books, she was barely there. That's what I am talking about. And it started really with Morrison because his emphasis was elsewhere.


Not really, I dont remember her being in Winicks run, or Azz's run or Brubakers run(significantly) or Moench's run before that, it was really just Loeb's run.

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## WontonGirl

> Not really, I dont remember her being in Winicks run, or Azz's run or Brubakers run(significantly) or Moench's run before that, it was really just Loeb's run.


I guess I kinda saw that as different because she had popular Cat books and she still was a highly popular character. I will check out their runs. I am going to start with Rucka's run around the late 90's because I want to read his Batman first before I read his Wonder Woman. But that's another topic  :Cool: 

In Doug Moench's first run back in the Bronze Age, she was in damn near every issue, LOL.

Also, it seems like she was in more crossover stories. So even if she wasn't in the main Bat runs, she was still crossing over more. Her presence seemed to be decreased after Morrison took hold. 

Or maybe because HUSH was so huge, people were expecting more.

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## millernumber1

> I guess I kinda saw that as different because she had popular Cat books and she still was a highly popular character. I will check out their runs. I am going to start with Rucka's run around the late 90's because I want to read his Batman first before I read his Wonder Woman. But that's another topic 
> 
> In Doug Moench's first run back in the Bronze Age, she was in damn near every issue, LOL.
> 
> Also, it seems like she was in more crossover stories. So even if she wasn't in the main Bat runs, she was still crossing over more. Her presence seemed to be decreased after Morrison took hold. 
> 
> Or maybe because HUSH was so huge, people were expecting more.


Just as a side note - I adore Rucka's Wonder Woman. I love most of Rucka's side Batman characters (Renee, Sasha, Helena, Kate). I really hate his Batman - he's the jerkiest of jerks, completely unable to admit fault or flex.

Hush, though, ended by basically putting the "cat" back in the bag by having Bruce too damaged by Hush's mindgames to be with Selina (a huge annoyance at the end that really detracts from my enjoyment of the story).

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## WontonGirl

> Just as a side note - I adore Rucka's Wonder Woman. I love most of Rucka's side Batman characters (Renee, Sasha, Helena, Kate). I really hate his Batman - he's the jerkiest of jerks, completely unable to admit fault or flex.
> 
> Hush, though, ended by basically putting the "cat" back in the bag by having Bruce too damaged by Hush's mindgames to be with Selina (a huge annoyance at the end that really detracts from my enjoyment of the story).


Okay so you trust his Wonder Woman because I was kinda confused as if I should start with him or George Perez. 

Funny we mentioned HUSH because HUSH happened not too long after Vesper's death, LOL! But don't spoil anything because I am about to start the Rucka run with Montoya and Sasha and all those stories. Seems like they are good.

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## WontonGirl

> Hush, though, ended by basically putting the "cat" back in the bag by having Bruce too damaged by Hush's mindgames to be with Selina (a huge annoyance at the end that really detracts from my enjoyment of the story).


But one thing you can say is that Loeb is a Cat fan and a "canon" fan so HUSH wouldn't had happened or ended any other way because in his mind, it's all part of the chase between the "bat & the cat". 

Best scene was the Batcave scene with her, Alfred and Bats. The convo with her and Alfred was gold. Dick and Bats had a good scene too.

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## godisawesome

> Just as a side note - I adore Rucka's Wonder Woman. I love most of Rucka's side Batman characters (Renee, Sasha, Helena, Kate). I really hate his Batman - he's the jerkiest of jerks, completely unable to admit fault or flex.
> 
> *Hush, though, ended by basically putting the "cat" back in the bag by having Bruce too damaged by Hush's mindgames to be with Selina (a huge annoyance at the end that really detracts from my enjoyment of the story).*


That's the main reason why I want them to either immediately blow off Bruce asking her to marry him (if they have no intention of going all in) or _actually do the dang thing._ There's something very irritating about holding the status quo so sacrosanct you feel you have to "put the toys back into the box."

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## WontonGirl

> That's the main reason why I want them to either immediately blow off Bruce asking her to marry him (if they have no intention of going all in) or _actually do the dang thing._ There's something very irritating about holding the status quo so sacrosanct you feel you have to "put the toys back into the box."


I agree. I think there are just too many trains of thoughts with Cat; do we make a hard core villain? Do we make her a stepford wife? Do we make her a person who is now always is patrolling with Bruce? 

It's not that hard. She can still be a bad ass protector in a place like the East End & also maybe help out at a Homeless shelter in the day as her "day job" for all the haters that say she doesn't do anything. Then at night she can do her thing, Bruce can do his thing, they can meet up, compare notes, and see each other later on that night. It's not that hard to write.

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## MzTropiqWonder

> I agree. I think there are just too many trains of thoughts with Cat; do we make a hard core villain? Do we make her a stepford wife? Do we make her a person who is now always is patrolling with Bruce? 
> 
> It's not that hard. She can still be a bad ass protector in a place like the East End & also maybe help out at a Homeless shelter in the day as her "day job" for all the haters that say she doesn't do anything. Then at night she can do her thing, Bruce can do his thing, they can meet up, compare notes, and see each other later on that night. It's not that hard to write.


I think what they have to establish first and formost the central core of Selina, she is suspicious of most people especially the authorities. She used to diguise herself a lot before and played people, she could very well be all that e.g play a villain, play a stepford wife, sometimes patrol with Bruce and still have her own cause she wants to fight for. The best thing writers can do now is write really good stories with her in it to erase those horrible bad ones. Get her character right paint someone who is smart and talented, someone who could have been anything she wanted but chose to steal instead. Bruce chose to be a crime fighter and trust some of the authorities, so it would be smarter to have Selina steal from people who profit from innocent people suffering, e.g the mob, corrupt government officials, crook business men/women, people who she feels that the law can't touch, have Selina take what they've worked hard for and enjoy watching them squirm. Have Bruce come to term that dispite her turbulant past Selina is doing what he does in her way (stealing). She's a thief don't take the thief out of Selina, or the fun she has out of what she does because not writing her in that way would be a mistake.

Also, Batman and Catwoman don't always have to be in the same city and be lovey dovey, don't write their marriage in the same light as Superman and Lois.. Cawoman is an independant woman who can have her own projects to work on and come home to Batman and be with the man and pick up where she left off. There marriage or union should be unconventional.

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## WontonGirl

> I think what they have to establish first and formost the central core of Selina, she is suspicious of most people especially the authorities. She used to diguise herself a lot before and played people, she could very well be all that e.g play a villain, play a stepford wife, sometimes patrol with Bruce and still have her own cause she wants to fight for. The best thing writers can do now is write really good stories with her in it to erase those horrible bad ones. Get her character right paint someone who is smart and talented, someone who could have been anything she wanted but chose to steal instead. Bruce chose to be a crime fighter and trust some of the authorities, so it would be smarter to have Selina steal from people who profit from innocent people suffering, e.g the mob, corrupt government officials, crook business men/women, people who she feels that the law can't touch, have Selina take what they've worked hard for and enjoy watching them squirm. Have Bruce come to term that dispite her turbulant past Selina is doing what he does in her way (stealing). She's a thief don't take the thief out of Selina, or the fun she has out of what she does because not writing her in that way would be a mistake.
> 
> Also, Batman and Catwoman don't always have to be in the same city and be lovey dovey, don't write their marriage in the same light as Superman and Lois.. Cawoman is an independant woman who can have her own projects to work on and come home to Batman and be with the man and pick up where she left off. There marriage or union should be unconventional.


It should be different but not TOO different. The core of any marriage is that you have to "be there" in the marriage. Or else, it will fail. That's regardless of if they are going to make their union different or not. They would still have to be there in the marriage for it to sustain or else they will lose each other to their own careers. It happens to celebs all the time. You gotta be present. 

As far as all the other stuff; the comics has done that with Selina. Also, in the comics, regardless of what era or time period, whenever Selina and Bruce are together, it's because she is reformed or not stealing. And that is the truth. Selina is kick ass, she has a heart of gold, etc. BUT at the end of the day, Batman is a hero and he's not going to be with somebody who is still stealing from people; no matter how powerful or corrupt they are. That would go against what he stands for and to be honest, how does that make him look like? 

Plus I don't think Selina really wants to do this forever, I just think that she probably doesn't know what else to do? So I say, start writing stories for her that does give her a day job doing something like nonprofit work or working at or for a Homeless shelter or Teen Girls home and then night, be the Protector of the East End. That's more fitting for a reformed thief moving on with her life and using her talents and intelligence in a meanful way. I mean, in the Telltale Games, they did give her a job and over the early, early years of the comics, she did have a job. 

It's time to make changes to Selina as well other than a "crime boss" who is really not one or a super sexualized woman in "charge of her sexuality", blah, blah. Nah, nah, it's time for her to mature and get some roots and still be anti-hero just like everybody else. 

If they can change and keep changing people like Harvey and Lex of the better, this can be done with Selina.

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## Frontier

Our girl sure knows how to make an entrance in today's _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ issue  :Wink:

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## WontonGirl

> Our girl sure knows how to make an entrance in today's _Batgirl and the Birds of Prey_ issue


What number is it?

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## millernumber1

> What number is it?


Batgirl and the Birds of Prey #11

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## WontonGirl

> Batgirl and the Birds of Prey #11


Okay I read it. So I am new to that particular book so I don't know the backstory of the Terracare company but I guess as a Catwoman fan, and in light of the recent proposal, I'm hoping that somehow there is more to this story and Cat is NOT stealing just to be stealing. 

See this is the kinds of stuff that make me hate DC Comics sometimes because in one book, she's being proposed to but in another book, she is presented as stealing. So both Batgirl and Batgirl fans would probably not want Bats to marry this woman. 

This is all happening around the same time right? The Batgirl/Birds of Prey books are canon too right?

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## Tuck

You should probably use spoiler tags.

*spoilers:*
She broke into a particular area of the building and stole a specific item.  That implies a purpose.
*end of spoilers*

Continuity is meant to be less restrictive these days.  Everything that happens in one book counts in the others (except Harley's book), but don't stress the when too much.  Otherwise you'd go mad trying to figure out the logistics of Dinah pretty much having to be on both coasts simultaneously.

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## Frontier

Continuity and timing can be wonky sometimes, but I think it's safe to assume that the events of this issue take place before the proposal. 

We've already seen that Selina's living in a new apartment and doing...stuff, so her role here feels in-line with that.

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## WontonGirl

I had this long reply and I don't know where it went! 

Anyway, I'm so confused, LOL! 

I need to just read the books that make me happy and not worry about this whole continuity issue because lately I feel like I am losing my mind. I can't keep things straight.

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## CryNotWolf

The last page read like an opening to a bad porno. It honestly seems strange for her to consciously order pizza to be delivered to where she is staying, stay decked out in her full costume and remain unmasked, and then drop a line about not having cash while flashing her newly-stolen diamond... all in front of some stranger.

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## Frontier

> The last page read like an opening to a bad porno. It honestly seems strange for her to consciously order pizza to be delivered to where she is staying, stay decked out in her full costume and remain unmasked, and then drop a line about not having cash while flashing her newly-stolen diamond... all in front of some stranger.


I actually loved how brazen she was on that last page. It just feels so Catwoman  :Wink: .

I also felt kind of jealous of the pizza boy  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## CryNotWolf

> I actually loved how brazen she was on that last page. It just feels so Catwoman .
> 
> I also felt kind of jealous of the pizza boy .


I liked it too, she's so in-your-face and shameless, and what male wouldn't want to be standing in front of a teasing Catwoman? But it was still quite jarring how such a sexually charged scene juxtaposed with the rest of the issue.

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## Frontier

> I liked it too, she's so in-your-face and shameless, and what male wouldn't want to be standing in front of a teasing Catwoman? But it was still quite jarring how such a sexually charged scene juxtaposed with the rest of the issue.


I can understand that, though I think it's to be expected when you introduce Catwoman into a book in a big way. 

At the very least I'm looking forward to seeing more of what the Benson's have in store for Selina in this arc.

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## millernumber1

> Okay I read it. So I am new to that particular book so I don't know the backstory of the Terracare company but I guess as a Catwoman fan, and in light of the recent proposal, I'm hoping that somehow there is more to this story and Cat is NOT stealing just to be stealing. 
> 
> See this is the kinds of stuff that make me hate DC Comics sometimes because in one book, she's being proposed to but in another book, she is presented as stealing. So both Batgirl and Batgirl fans would probably not want Bats to marry this woman. 
> 
> This is all happening around the same time right? The Batgirl/Birds of Prey books are canon too right?


Um. Catwoman was stealing in Tom King's book, too? As late as Rooftops. And we don't fully know what the deal is with her motivations yet, since it is a last page reveal.




> I actually loved how brazen she was on that last page. It just feels so Catwoman .
> 
> I also felt kind of jealous of the pizza boy .


It felt very in character to me as well. And really delightful.




> I liked it too, she's so in-your-face and shameless, and what male wouldn't want to be standing in front of a teasing Catwoman? But it was still quite jarring how such a sexually charged scene juxtaposed with the rest of the issue.


Exactly! Or what lady with a taste for the ladies, like Eiko  :Wink: .

I think Catwoman is always going to be a very sexually charged character, so it didn't feel jarring since it was consistent with her character.

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## Huntsman1117

To offer a few possible answers to earlier questions:
I don't think DC bigwigs see Catwoman as a priority. I don't think they are fans of her because they have allowed bad writing, editing, artwork, and directing to diminish the strength of her character both on-page and on-screen (ex: Will Pfieffer, Ann Nocenti, Judd Widick, and "Catwoman" film producer Pitof *spit*).
I don't think DC creators know, or can agree on, what to do with her in her own comic to make her interesting, exciting, and pleasing to her fans.
I know for a fact that her fans can never agree on which of the many faces of Catwoman they want to see in her comic. I mean, the costume debate and the sexiness debates and prostitution debates are never-ending. I'm among thousands of fans who can't seem to see eye-to-eye on the many issues facing Catwoman.
Catwoman's ever-evolving costumes, personalities, origins, objectives, and status make her too inconsistent. Having a lot of dimensions to a character does add substance and complexity to a very human character. But Catwoman has been so many different people over the years (almost all of them named Selina Kyle), that it's hard to decide which Catwoman can make the most people happy and appeal to the most audiences.
I think her selfishness makes her reasonably untrustworthy and most people hate that. Most people hate people who steal from, lie to, seduce, and manipulate other people. I also hear a lot of people say "I hate cats." 
Anyway.
Catwoman is a difficult subject. Her solo stories as a cat-burglar in Gotham City can only stay intetesting for so long. Much less for her as a vigilante in the East End. 
She's like a candle that has been burned out on both ends. And the world doesn't have a strong enough grasp on who she is to understand her ever-changing status; the same can be said for writers who try to create stories about her. It's damn difficult. And they've almost tried everything.
I would suggest DC creators to give her an all-new look that is both inventive, yet easily recognizeable. Put her in a juicy, dramatic, and slightly crazy (but long-term) relationship with Batman and let chaos and adventure ensue. It's a much- needed new direction for the two of them. Imagine the happiness, love, passion, frustration, bickering, snarking, snickering, laughing, and palpable fear the two of them can experience while facing countless dangers as costumed heroes/outlaws. This isn't Superman and Lois Lane; not Spider-Man and Mary-Jane; not Cyclops and Jean Grey. This is Batman and Catwoman. Pure passion and chaos as equal opposites.

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## Huntsman1117

.....while also apparently having her act as a member of the Birds of Prey, as it has been stated.

Things change. A storm is coming.

----------


## WontonGirl

> To offer a few possible answers to earlier questions:
> I don't think DC bigwigs see Catwoman as a priority. I don't think they are fans of her because they have allowed bad writing, editing, artwork, and directing to diminish the strength of her character both on-page and on-screen (ex: Will Pfieffer, Ann Nocenti, Judd Widick, and "Catwoman" film producer Pitof *spit*).
> I don't think DC creators know, or can agree on, what to do with her in her own comic to make her interesting, exciting, and pleasing to her fans.
> I know for a fact that her fans can never agree on which of the many faces of Catwoman they want to see in her comic. I mean, the costume debate and the sexiness debates and prostitution debates are never-ending. I'm among thousands of fans who can't seem to see eye-to-eye on the many issues facing Catwoman.
> Catwoman's ever-evolving costumes, personalities, origins, objectives, and status make her too inconsistent. Having a lot of dimensions to a character does add substance and complexity to a very human character. But Catwoman has been so many different people over the years (almost all of them named Selina Kyle), that it's hard to decide which Catwoman can make the most people happy and appeal to the most audiences.
> I think her selfishness makes her reasonably untrustworthy and most people hate that. Most people hate people who steal from, lie to, seduce, and manipulate other people. I also hear a lot of people say "I hate cats." 
> Anyway.
> Catwoman is a difficult subject. Her solo stories as a cat-burglar in Gotham City can only stay intetesting for so long. Much less for her as a vigilante in the East End. 
> She's like a candle that has been burned out on both ends. And the world doesn't have a strong enough grasp on who she is to understand her ever-changing status; the same can be said for writers who try to create stories about her. It's damn difficult. And they've almost tried everything.
> I would suggest DC creators to give her an all-new look that is both inventive, yet easily recognizeable. Put her in a juicy, dramatic, and slightly crazy (but long-term) relationship with Batman and let chaos and adventure ensue. It's a much- needed new direction for the two of them. Imagine the happiness, love, passion, frustration, bickering, snarking, snickering, laughing, and palpable fear the two of them can experience while facing countless dangers as costumed heroes/outlaws. This isn't Superman and Lois Lane; not Spider-Man and Mary-Jane; not Cyclops and Jean Grey. This is Batman and Catwoman. Pure passion and chaos as equal opposites.


Yes! Exactly! This is the post that answers a lot of questions I was asking. Especially about how DC Comics feel about her.

----------


## Cape and Cowl

For those who require a regular Selina fix, here's a playful tribute of your mistress: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJGZnQChAY

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Whatever else one may think of Gotham, I think that Camren Bicondova does one of the better interpretations of Selina Kyle.  An older, wiser version of her in the comic books is the way to go.

----------


## Frontier

> Whatever else one may think of Gotham, I think that Camren Bicondova does one of the better interpretations of Selina Kyle.  An older, wiser version of her in the comic books is the way to go.


I think she's a great depiction of Selina in her "street kid" phase, but I think she still has a ways to go before she really develops into the Catwoman we all know and love.

----------


## millernumber1

I was wondering if anyone here like Catgirl in Tony Daniel's run of Batman, near the end of the post Crisis era. I think she's a fun idea, but not really that new or original - but I kinda wish she'd gotten another writer on her, since her relationship with Selina brings out some fun things, sort of like Selina and Eiko's relationship with Steph in Valentine's run.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think she's a great depiction of Selina in her "street kid" phase, but I think she still has a ways to go before she really develops into the Catwoman we all know and love.


I agree. Although I hate that they had her "kill" Alfred's friend Reggie by pushing him out of the window. 

One of the things about Catwoman was that she didn't kill. So that for me was a low point but I slowly got over it.

----------


## Frontier

> I was wondering if anyone here like Catgirl in Tony Daniel's run of Batman, near the end of the post Crisis era. I think she's a fun idea, but not really that new or original - but I kinda wish she'd gotten another writer on her, since her relationship with Selina brings out some fun things, sort of like Selina and Eiko's relationship with Steph in Valentine's run.


I think Catwoman with a costumed sidekick/protege is a fun idea, if nothing else  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I think Catwoman with a costumed sidekick/protege is a fun idea, if nothing else .


I agree. I think it adds to the richness of her character if she shapes more than just herself. Probably why I liked Valentine's run in general.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I agree. Although I hate that they had her "kill" Alfred's friend Reggie by pushing him out of the window. 
> 
> One of the things about Catwoman was that she didn't kill. So that for me was a low point but I slowly got over it.


They pretty much toss that out the window with most live interpretations of Catwoman. In Batman 1966 Catwoman was always trying to come up with ways to kill Batman and Robin.
In Batman Returns Catwoman killed Max Shreck.  In The Dark Knight Rises Selina Kyle killed Bane. Even in the not really the Catwoman movie, Patience causes the death of Laurel.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I was wondering if anyone here like Catgirl in Tony Daniel's run of Batman, near the end of the post Crisis era. I think she's a fun idea, but not really that new or original - but I kinda wish she'd gotten another writer on her, since her relationship with Selina brings out some fun things, sort of like Selina and Eiko's relationship with Steph in Valentine's run.


I didn't much care for Catgirl, and her design was whack. Daniel's Batman run as a whole was just really bad.

That being said, I don't dislike the idea of Catwoman having a protoge of sorts.

----------


## Bukdiah

Don't mean to derail the conversation, but I saw Catwoman listed on Netflix and decided to watch it. My god, what a monstrosity lmao. It was so bad that it was hilarious.

I also finished reading Selina's Big Score. That was a very solid caper with a noir ending.

----------


## WontonGirl

It's really bad that the Catwoman movie turned out to be so bad because the hype for the movie was insane! But I really think it was more hype for Halle Berry plus I think a lot of people, especially fans of color, were excited because they saw this as the "movie" version of Eartha Kitt who of course is know for her portrayal of Catwoman from the 60's TV show.

----------


## Bukdiah

> It's really bad that the Catwoman movie turned out to be so bad because the hype for the movie was insane! But I really think it was more hype for Halle Berry plus I think a lot of people, especially fans of color, were excited because they saw this as the "movie" version of Eartha Kitt who of course is know for her portrayal of Catwoman from the 60's TV show.


That's a damn shame. I didn't know about all that hype since I was 14 or 15 when the movie came out and wasn't hip to all that. At least she was somewhat repaired in TDKR ?

On a random note, I walked around work in a cat like stance and reenacted scenes for my coworkers lmao.

----------


## WontonGirl

> That's a damn shame. I didn't know about all that hype since I was 14 or 15 when the movie came out and wasn't hip to all that. At least she was somewhat repaired in TDKR ?
> 
> On a random note, I walked around work in a cat like stance and reenacted scenes for my coworkers lmao.


LOL! Well to be honest, this movie didn't do any damage to the Catwoman character in the eyes of mainstream fans. ESPECIALLY mainstream fans that didn't read the comic books. 

In fact, the damage was more centered around Halle Berry. Now maybe some hardcore comic fans or hardcore Catwoman fans (from the comics) would say it did damage but it really didn't. 

People gonna love Catwoman forever. Most expect her in any incarnation of the Batman story so she is fine.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> LOL! Well to be honest, this movie didn't do any damage to the Catwoman character in the eyes of mainstream fans. ESPECIALLY mainstream fans that didn't read the comic books. 
> 
> In fact, the damage was more centered around Halle Berry. Now maybe some hardcore comic fans or hardcore Catwoman fans (from the comics) would say it did damage but it really didn't. 
> 
> People gonna love Catwoman forever. Most expect her in any incarnation of the Batman story so she is fine.


I think Anne Hathaway in The Dark Knight Rises" and Camren Bicondova in the Gotham TV show have pretty much redeemed Selina Kyle. Most Catwoman true believers don't even regard that movie
as being the real Catwoman anyway.  It wasn't even Selina Kyle in that movie. Just some imposter that stole the name.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think Anne Hathaway in The Dark Knight Rises" and Camren Bicondova in the Gotham TV show have pretty much redeemed Selina Kyle. Most Catwoman true believers don't even regard that movie
> as being the real Catwoman anyway.  It wasn't even Selina Kyle in that movie. Just some imposter that stole the name.


Exactly! That's another thing. When people found out that it was really a movie about another woman being the Catwoman and there wasn't even a Batman connection, that didn't bode well for the movie. 

Catwoman is fine, she hasn't had to be "redeemed" in the public's eye since that movie. Again, Mainstream fans, casual fans and former comic book readers always know Catwoman. And they expect her in any incarnation that is mainstream. She's just one of those kind of characters that even if you are 10 years old or 20 or 15, you eventually find out about the "Catwoman". 

You don't get a 4th printing of Batman #24 based on the fact that it was Batman proposing to a "love interest". Regardless of what some haters may say, Batman proposing to the *Catwoman* was the draw, LOL! 

I always considered her, WW and Lois Lane the "Iconic Female Trinity" of DC Comics. And I still do to this day  :Smile:

----------


## Huntsman1117

I've actually had a lot of non-comic readers tell me they thought the Catwoman film was pretty good, and they actually liked her costume. I hate to admit it, but I was bitter about the movie before it even premiered in theatres because it wasn't Selina and I didn't like her costume. Then news reports and reviews slammed the film so badly that I didnt bother going to see it in theatres. I knew I'd walk out angry. And I took offense to a few film reviews stating "Catwoman can't hold her own film without Batman".

----------


## WontonGirl

> I've actually had a lot of non-comic readers tell me they thought the Catwoman film was pretty good, and they actually liked her costume. I hate to admit it, but I was bitter about the movie before it even premiered in theatres because it wasn't Selina and I didn't like her costume. Then news reports and reviews slammed the film so badly that I didnt bother going to see it in theatres. I knew I'd walk out angry. And I took offense to a few film reviews stating "Catwoman can't hold her own film without Batman".


And some of that had to do with Halle Berry as well. During that time, Halle was still one of the premier actresses in Hollywood and she was going through a divorce I believe or she had just finished it. And for some freaky reason, the personal problems of an actor can affect what the expectations are going to be for their work. 

I'm telling you, this film really didn't hurt "Catwoman" as much as some comic books fans NOW are saying.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm reading "Batman" #25 & 26, "The War of Jokes and Riddles" (which will continue over the next several months). In this story, Bruce is in bed with Selina and is recounting to her the time when The Joker and The Riddler went to war with each other. 

So, are we supposed to assume Selina said "Yes" to his proposal?

----------


## Jovos2099

I hope she did.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I'm reading "Batman" #25 & 26, "The War of Jokes and Riddles" (which will continue over the next several months). In this story, Bruce is in bed with Selina and is recounting to her the time when The Joker and The Riddler went to war with each other. 
> 
> So, are we supposed to assume Selina said "Yes" to his proposal?


I don't think she's given an answer yet. They're dragging it out.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm reading "Batman" #25 & 26, "The War of Jokes and Riddles" (which will continue over the next several months). In this story, Bruce is in bed with Selina and is recounting to her the time when The Joker and The Riddler went to war with each other. 
> 
> So, are we supposed to assume Selina said "Yes" to his proposal?


No, I am not assuming that. I think what happened is exactly what Tom King says Batman is doing. He wants Selina to know this "secret" and what he did before she says yes to his proposal. 

I think that most likely, the convo could had just been "before you say Yes, there is something I have to tell you" and they went back to the Manor and then he begins telling her the story. They are just in his bedroom telling the story. 

Bruce, in my opinion, probably had it more planned out than we are seeing. Gotham Girl asked him what he wanted to do. Who knows? He could had probably been wanting to ask this of Selina for awhile now.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/883383498345783296

----------


## WontonGirl

> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/883383498345783296


Yes, it's about time they got Cat showing up in the backstory. This art is nice!

----------


## millernumber1

That is a very amusing scene, though I really hope King develops the Bat/Cat relationship more than just Selina running and Batman chasing. I want to see the love Selina has for him, as well as the love he has for her.

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/883383498345783296


I feel like this page pretty much perfectly sums up their relationship, character, and dynamic  :Stick Out Tongue: .

And that classic Catwoman outfit  :Wink: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> I feel like this page pretty much perfectly sums up their relationship, character, and dynamic .
> 
> And that classic Catwoman outfit .


You just like *Sassy Catwoman*  :Embarrassment:

----------


## WontonGirl

> That is a very amusing scene, though I really hope King develops the Bat/Cat relationship more than just Selina running and Batman chasing. I want to see the love Selina has for him, as well as the love he has for her.


Me too. Let's finally show this as a relationship, in main recent canon. I always kinda looked at those two are two people who just fell for each other and just grew closer and closer over the years. If you take their whole time from 1940 - 2017, you can see that there was a natural progression of going from a negative association to a positive association with each other.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I love those panels. Man I miss the 90's costume. I miss Catwoman actually looking *pretty*.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I love those panels. Man I miss the 90's costume. I miss Catwoman actually looking *pretty*.


I think she looked pretty in Hush and in Catwoman Vol 3 when she was on "maternity leave", LOL! When she had the shoulder length hair and they really highlighted her green eyes. 

And she was a stunner in JLA:The Nail.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Interesting article pointing out parallel scenes involving Catwoman in the comics and in "Batman Returns" along with a good analysis of her psychology and complexities.
http://www.batman-online.com/feature....3H62iIQL.dpbs

----------


## WontonGirl

Oh and you guys know about this right? This is the new Catwoman Book that just came out last week:

https://comicsworthreading.com/2017/...feline-fatale/

32713517._UY630_SR1200,630_.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> I love those panels. Man I miss the 90's costume. I miss Catwoman actually looking *pretty*.


Catwoman has never been more popular than she was in the 90s, when she was fun, sassy, upbeat, and shamelessly sexy. Why the hell don't they just go back to that instead of pushing this boring/angsty crap?

----------


## Bukdiah

> Oh and you guys know about this right? This is the new Catwoman Book that just came out last week:
> 
> https://comicsworthreading.com/2017/...feline-fatale/
> 
> 32713517._UY630_SR1200,630_.jpg


"Meow!" I'm gonna see if my library can get this book for me lol

----------


## WontonGirl

> Catwoman has never been more popular than she was in the 90s, when she was fun, sassy, upbeat, and shamelessly sexy. Why the hell don't they just go back to that instead of pushing this boring/angsty crap?


I edited this post because after re-reading your statement, I believe that we are saying the same thing. 

I definitely think with mainstream and casual fans outside of the books, Catwoman is always popular and "expected". Meaning, if there is some kind of adaption, people expect to eventually see her. 

I will say that also TBAS TV show helped keep her in mainstream eye and then the success of HUSH also helped too. But again, that's just my opinion, this coming from a Mainstream fan that has recently just gotten back into the comics.  :Big Grin:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Catwoman has never been more popular than she was in the 90s, when she was fun, sassy, upbeat, and shamelessly sexy. Why the hell don't they just go back to that instead of pushing this boring/angsty crap?


Like to be honest, I had NEVER seen the Purple skintight costume for Catwoman until a few years ago when I was looking her up on Wikipedia along the time of the Nolan TDNK rises movie. I was like, "wow"! So I think that she has always been popular throughout the ages, just in different forms to different people.

----------


## WontonGirl

> "Meow!" I'm gonna see if my library can get this book for me lol


Yeah I talked to the Author about how he JUST missed it with the announcement of Bat's proposal and the huge Success of Wonder Woman. He said "yes it would had been a great epilogue but with the proposal, people are now also looking into the book". 

Here is his active Tumblr: 

http://timhanley01.tumblr.com/

----------


## WonderScott

> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/883383498345783296


Nice to see the Balent costume make a comeback in the backstory. It was always a fave of mine despite really disliking the proportions he used when drawing Selina. Something about the purple contrasting the blue of Batman's cape and cowl.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Catwoman has never been more popular than she was in the 90s, when she was fun, sassy, upbeat, and shamelessly sexy. Why the hell don't they just go back to that instead of pushing this boring/angsty crap?


What the hell are you talking about? Even after nearly 100 issues, the vast majority of her 90s run ranged from terrible to mediocre. Brubaker's 2000s run in comparison, which was "angsty" as you call it, was one of the best cape comic runs of the past 20 years. It helped her evolve past being just a sex symbol running around in silly pajamas making cat-themed puns, and caused her to remain fresh and interesting in a mythos that had all but left her behind.

And she's still all those things, but god forbid authors try to add some pathos to her character.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What the hell are you talking about? Even after nearly 100 issues, the vast majority of her 90s run ranged from terrible to mediocre. Brubaker's 2000s run in comparison, which was "angsty" as you call it, was one of the best cape comic runs of the past 20 years. It helped her evolve past being just a sex symbol running around in silly pajamas making cat-themed puns, and caused her to remain fresh and interesting in a mythos that had all but left her behind.
> 
> And she's still all those things, but god forbid authors try to add some pathos to her character.


Nobody said Brubaker's run was bad. There were other Catwoman comics after that run you know, which is what I what I was describing as angsty crap. I will say that Brubaker's run sold poorly and clearly didn't connect with readers the way 90s Catwoman did, who you have reduced to a "sex symbol in silly pajamas".

IMG_0896.jpg

The 90s Catwoman comics I've read were far from terrible or mediocre, which isn't surprising with excellent creators like Dixon, Devin Grayson, and John Ostrander writing the character. I think your hatred of that era is mostly superficial.

----------


## Assam

Y'all know I wear my 90's kid badge proud, but I can't stand the purple skin tight suit. I think it's an absolute eyesore. And her 90's book was even worse. Brubaker's run, what I read of it, may not have hit the right chords with me, but it was still _good_ and her costume was a massive improvement.

----------


## Frontier

I think how well the purple catsuit worked depended a lot on the artist, though I think it did fit Catwoman at that time.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Y'all know I wear my 90's kid badge proud, but I can't stand the purple skin tight suit. I think it's an absolute eyesore. And her 90's book was even worse. Brubaker's run, what I read of it, may not have hit the right chords with me, but it was still _good_ and her costume was a massive improvement.


TBH I was never a fan of the purple coloring. But I'd take the 90s look in all it's glory over this...
IMG_0897.jpg
Or this...
IMG_0898.jpg
Any day of the week.

----------


## millernumber1

> TBH I was never a fan of the purple coloring. But I'd take the 90s look in all it's glory over this...
> Or this...
> IMG_0898.jpg
> Any day of the week.


Hmm. I like both of those. I will admit that Messian's art on the Valentine run of Catwoman was awkward in proportions, but my affection for the writing in that run (and Steph guest starring  :Smile:  ) still wins me over. Definitely preferred Garry Brown's art in the first half of the run, though.

What do you think of Darwyn Cooke's original redesign when he was drawing it, though? Or Adam Hughes' covers for her series?

----------


## Frontier

> What do you think of Darwyn Cooke's original redesign when he was drawing it, though? Or Adam Hughes' covers for her series?


I think Cooke (and Cameron Stewart when he came in afterwards) had one of the stronger depictions of the design, in my opinion. 

Same with Hughes. 

I said this earlier in the thread, but I think how well it looks, and how striking a design it is, depends a lot on the artist.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Hmm. I like both of those. I will admit that Messian's art on the Valentine run of Catwoman was awkward in proportions, but my affection for the writing in that run (and Steph guest starring  ) still wins me over. Definitely preferred Garry Brown's art in the first half of the run, though.
> 
> What do you think of Darwyn Cooke's original redesign when he was drawing it, though? Or Adam Hughes' covers for her series?


Cooke was fine. Not my ideal Catwoman but he didn't make her an eyesore like some of the later artists so I can't complain. Hughes was a little better. Honestly my favorite take on that particular costume came from Guillem March.

----------


## WonderScott

> I think Cooke (and Cameron Stewart when he came in afterwards) had one of the stronger depictions of the design, in my opinion. 
> 
> Same with Hughes. 
> 
> I said this earlier in the thread, but I think how well it looks, and how striking a design it is, depends a lot on the artist.


Completely agree. When Finch drew it during the relaunch of Justice League of America I was like, "Please no."

----------


## tbgo

The goggle costume is horrendous. She's had it longer than any previous incarnation. She's overdue for a redesign! Bring back the long hair already as well!

----------


## millernumber1

> The goggle costume is horrendous. She's had it longer than any previous incarnation. She's overdue for a redesign! Bring back the long hair already as well!


Do you think a variant on the Dark Knight Rises design would meet your criteria?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Like to be honest, I had NEVER seen the Purple skintight costume for Catwoman until a few years ago when I was looking her up on Wikipedia along the time of the Nolan TDNK rises movie. I was like, "wow"! So I think that she has always been popular throughout the ages, just in different forms to different people.


After Batman Returns I lobbied DC Comics hard to give Catwoman her own book.  So of course when DC Comics came out with Catwoman #1 in August 1993 I grabbed half a dozen copies at the comic book
store.  Until June 2001, about 8 years, the purple costume was Catwoman.

----------


## Frontier

> Do you think a variant on the Dark Knight Rises design would meet your criteria?


I did like that design, but I would prefer something more like her look from _The Batman_ cartoon personally, or maybe something B:TAS inspired...

----------


## millernumber1

> I did like that design, but I would prefer something more like her look from _The Batman_ cartoon personally, or maybe something B:TAS inspired...


Hmm. I really don't like the massive ears in this image (I haven't completed my watch of the series, and don't remember a ton of what I did watch outside of Babs  :Wink:  )

1.jpg

For me, I really like the Darwyn Cooke design, and so don't really have a desire for that to be replaced, but if it were, I liked the Hathaway look from DKRises. But that's really similar to the Cooke design, filtered through the hyper "realism" of Nolan's design aesthetic. So I think it's probably cheating.

----------


## Frontier

> Hmm. I really don't like the massive ears in this image (I haven't completed my watch of the series, and don't remember a ton of what I did watch outside of Babs  )
> 
> 1.jpg
> 
> For me, I really like the Darwyn Cooke design, and so don't really have a desire for that to be replaced, but if it were, I liked the Hathaway look from DKRises. But that's really similar to the Cooke design, filtered through the hyper "realism" of Nolan's design aesthetic. So I think it's probably cheating.


Oh, I really like the big ears though  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, I really like the big ears though .


That's cool. I really like Cooke's design. Everybody's got their thing.  :Smile:

----------


## tbgo

> Do you think a variant on the Dark Knight Rises design would meet your criteria?


No. I get where you're going but no. Selina needs a total overhaul and something eye-popping. She needs a complete makeover. She doesn't stand out on the shelf. The character isn't marketable. Image is a big part of comic books. The Cooke design has killed her appeal. It's stale now. The costume should go back to basics and be streamlined. It never made sense. The aviator cap just happened to have ears? The goggles going around the head always looks cumbersome and redundant. She hardly uses them for technical thievery. Then they just ended up trying to sexualize this unsexy costume. Just be done with it and bring back something like the 90s one. It doesn't have to be purple, but go back to the basic, iconic design.

----------


## millernumber1

> No. I get where you're going but no. Selina needs a total overhaul and something eye-popping. She needs a complete makeover. She doesn't stand out on the shelf. The character isn't marketable. Image is a big part of comic books. The Cooke design has killed her appeal. It's stale now. The costume should go back to basics and be streamlined. It never made sense. The aviator cap just happened to have ears? The goggles going around the head always looks cumbersome and redundant. She hardly uses them for technical thievery. Then they just ended up trying to sexualize this unsexy costume. Just be done with it and bring back something like the 90s one. It doesn't have to be purple, but go back to the basic, iconic design.


A body sock? Okay. Seems like it wouldn't fit with the current design of the Batfamily. Also seems a bit too much like Talia's outfit.  :Smile:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Nothing wrong with Purple.  In fact throw in some green. And bring back the cape.  

CATWOM_K.jpg

----------


## Tuck

Ugh.

Now that Prince is dead, the Joker is the only one left who can pull off purple.  They need to get it out of all the costumes it's still in.  They only used so much purple and green in old comics because of the way color separations worked when they had to be done by hand.

----------


## WonderScott

I did like TDKR design (updated Julie Newmar-ish) as well as her Batman: The Brave and the Bold design.

----------


## WontonGirl

I like the Black suit, just not with all her Boobs hanging out, LOL! 

I like the design from TDKR as well. The Purple design, I don't know. I would like to see Selina with long hair again.

----------


## Frontier

> Ugh.
> 
> *Now that Prince is dead, the Joker is the only one left who can pull off purple.*  They need to get it out of all the costumes it's still in.  They only used so much purple and green in old comics because of the way color separations worked when they had to be done by hand.


So I take it you're not crazy about the Burnside Batgirl design or Medusa, Queen of the Inhumans, outfit either  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Jovos2099

All I  want to know is if  selina will say yes or not to bruce about the  proposal.

----------


## millernumber1

> All I  want to know is if  selina will say yes or not to bruce about the  proposal.


Um. I predict we won't know until at least November.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Nobody said Brubaker's run was bad. There were other Catwoman comics after that run you know, which is what I what I was describing as angsty crap. I will say that Brubaker's run sold poorly and clearly didn't connect with readers the way 90s Catwoman did, who you have reduced to a "sex symbol in silly pajamas".
> 
> Attachment 51390
> 
> The 90s Catwoman comics I've read were far from terrible or mediocre, which isn't surprising with excellent creators like Dixon, Devin Grayson, and John Ostrander writing the character. I think your hatred of that era is mostly superficial.


Then what are you calling "angsty crap"? Valentine's run? Dini's work on the character? 

Also you might not have been around during that time, but Brubaker's run was very highly regarded even while it was being printed. It's literally her character-defining run. I'm not sure why you bring up sales as some kind of argument, when numbers don't count for quality at all. Vision was one of the best cape comics written in the past decade and it sold like complete garbage. EVEN then, 90s Catwoman didn't sell incredibly either. You don't seem to accounting for the fact that comics sales in general were better in the 90s than the early 2000s. Also, listing Devin Grayson as an "excellent creator" doesn't do your argument any favors. Her run sucked, and Dixon's was mediocre. All Ostrander did was phone in a couple tie-ins. It was all made worse by the fact it was drawn almost entirely by Jim Balent, whose overtly 90s art does not stand up to the test of time.

90s Catwoman was one-note and a product of the time. There's no need to go back to that like it was some kind of creative golden age for the character, because it wasn't. It lacked any kind of ambition and not much really happened with Selina as a character even after like 100 issues, and nobody cared when Brubaker threw all that away because, well, there wasn't much TO throw away besides the bright purple boobsock outfit.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Um. I predict we won't know until at least November.


So you think we will find out during during Metal? I was thinking it was right after Issue 32 or in Issue 32?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Then what are you calling "angsty crap"? Valentine's run? Dini's work on the character? 
> 
> Also you might not have been around during that time, but Brubaker's run was very highly regarded even while it was being printed. It's literally her character-defining run. I'm not sure why you bring up sales as some kind of argument, when numbers don't count for quality at all. Vision was one of the best cape comics written in the past decade and it sold like complete garbage. EVEN then, 90s Catwoman didn't sell incredibly either. You don't seem to accounting for the fact that comics sales in general were better in the 90s than the early 2000s. Also, listing Devin Grayson as an "excellent creator" doesn't do your argument any favors. Her run sucked, and Dixon's was mediocre. All Ostrander did was phone in a couple tie-ins. It was all made worse by the fact it was drawn almost entirely by Jim Balent, whose overtly 90s art does not stand up to the test of time.
> 
> 90s Catwoman was one-note and a product of the time. There's no need to go back to that like it was some kind of creative golden age for the character, because it wasn't. It lacked any kind of ambition and not much really happened with Selina as a character even after like 100 issues, and nobody cared when Brubaker threw all that away because, well, there wasn't much TO throw away besides the bright purple boobsock outfit.


This was some good info, thanks!

----------


## Katana500

> Um. I predict we won't know until at least November.


Her dialogue in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey is pretty interesting. I have no idea what she will say though, guess we will need to wait until after the War of Jokes and riddles to finish.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Batgirl and the Birds of Prey makes me think she is going to say Yes


They probably will ask that you put a spoiler tag for this, I don't know. Just guessing.

----------


## Katana500

> They probably will ask that you put a spoiler tag for this, I don't know. Just guessing.


How do you do it again.  :Smile:

----------


## WontonGirl

> How do you do it again.


I don't know, LOL!  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> So you think we will find out during during Metal? I was thinking it was right after Issue 32 or in Issue 32?


I think we'll find out at the end of War of Jokes and Riddles. I don't think Metal will tie-into the BatCat story at all - unless Snyder really surprises me. Which he hasn't so far.  :Smile:

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think we'll find out at the end of War of Jokes and Riddles. I don't think Metal will tie-into the BatCat story at all - unless Snyder really surprises me. Which he hasn't so far.


No I don't mean doing Metal's arc, I meant during the timeline of the comics releasing.

----------


## millernumber1

Hmm. Well, I think it's going to be the last issue of War of Jokes and Riddles, which I'm feeling will be sometime in November. At least, I hope it will be. Much as the story has been enjoyable so far, I don't want another Zero Year eating the Batman title for well over a year.

----------


## Tuck

> So I take it you're not crazy about the Burnside Batgirl design or Medusa, Queen of the Inhumans, outfit either ?


I like the homemade feel of Batgirl's costume, but purple is a weird choice (I assume it's because of the Yvonne Craig outfit).

I don't care about the Inhumans one way or the other.  The FF and most things attached to it are pretty boring to me.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Ugh.
> 
> Now that Prince is dead, the Joker is the only one left who can pull off purple.  They need to get it out of all the costumes it's still in.  They only used so much purple and green in old comics because of the way color separations worked when they had to be done by hand.


Penguin sez them be fighting words.  That clown don't own purple.

Penguin_Arkhamverse.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

So Tom King confirms that in Issue #32, we will learn Selina's answer. He said in this Podcast interview that the proposal had been planned for a year and he didn't think that DC Comics would let him do it. In fact, he thought that they would yank it at the last minute. 

Sounds like her answer, Metal, the Doomsday event is all leading up to an event that is happening 1 1/2 years from now. 

Here is the link to the podcast interview: It's the Word Balloon Comic podcast

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/f/3/4f33...a5ffbf8e1de205

----------


## Tuck

> Penguin sez them be fighting words.  That clown don't own purple.
> 
> Penguin_Arkhamverse.jpg


He looks like a deranged pimp.

----------


## WonderScott

> So Tom King confirms that in Issue #32, we will learn Selina's answer. He said in this Podcast interview that the proposal had been planned for a year and he didn't think that DC Comics would let him do it. In fact, he thought that they would yank it at the last minute. 
> 
> Sounds like her answer, Metal, the Doomsday event is all leading up to an event that is happening 1 1/2 years from now. 
> 
> Here is the link to the podcast interview: It's the Word Balloon Comic podcast
> 
> http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/f/3/4f33...a5ffbf8e1de205


If the answer is yes, I look forward to how Batman and Catwoman are viewed by/interact with the Gotham villains, the Bat allies, and the Justice League by this status quo change. Or what new doors are open to him/her now. Those are the stories and interactions I wanna read.

----------


## WontonGirl

> If the answer is yes, I look forward to how Batman and Catwoman are viewed by/interact with the Gotham villains, the Bat allies, and the Justice League by this status quo change. Or what new doors are open to him/her now. Those are the stories and interactions I wanna read.


I completely agree. I wonder would DC Comics have the cojones to let this actually happen? And let this run through the Metal arcs, Doomsday, all the way to the "big event" that Tom mentioned? I mean, this would be huge. 

And huge for Catwoman as well. BUT how much you wanna bet the "comic book feminists" will come after DC Comics for this? Saying that Cat would be "losing her identity and being reduced to a love interest for the male hero?"

----------


## Atlanta96

> I completely agree. I wonder would DC Comics have the cojones to let this actually happen? And let this run through the Metal arcs, Doomsday, all the way to the "big event" that Tom mentioned? I mean, this would be huge. 
> 
> And huge for Catwoman as well. BUT how much you wanna bet the "comic book feminists" will come after DC Comics for this? Saying that Cat would be "losing her identity and being reduced to a love interest for the male hero?"


I think that as long as Catwoman stays modest and bland, most of the Tumblrinas will be fine with it. Except for the ones who badly wanted Bruce or Selina with someone else, the shippers.

----------


## Jovos2099

If selina  does  say  yes does anyone think we'll  ever see a version of  Helena  wayne in the main  continuity?

----------


## millernumber1

> So Tom King confirms that in Issue #32, we will learn Selina's answer. He said in this Podcast interview that the proposal had been planned for a year and he didn't think that DC Comics would let him do it. In fact, he thought that they would yank it at the last minute. 
> 
> Sounds like her answer, Metal, the Doomsday event is all leading up to an event that is happening 1 1/2 years from now. 
> 
> Here is the link to the podcast interview: It's the Word Balloon Comic podcast
> 
> http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/f/3/4f33...a5ffbf8e1de205


Oooh. That's in October, earlier than I expected. Though they keep putting interlude issues into War of Jokes and Riddles. So I'm betting that November is still on the table.  :Smile:

----------


## WontonGirl

> If selina  does  say  yes does anyone think we'll  ever see a version of  Helena  wayne in the main  continuity?


I don't think so. I personally don't think that they would have children, just my guess.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't think so. I personally don't think that they would have children, just my guess.


They've both had kids before...  :Smile:

----------


## Tuck

> They've both had kids before...


Is Helena Kyle canon post Rebirth?

Feels like a loose end they would get rid of.

----------


## WontonGirl

> They've both had kids before...


I know, but they are pushing 40 now. I just don't see it, LOL! But who knows, if they could somehow connect it. 

But at this point, we just have to see what even happens with Catwoman period with the upcoming Metal arc. Until we find out what the deal is in Issue 32, all this stuff that's happening now with her, BOP, whatever it is she does with Bane, it's all teasers.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Is Helena Kyle canon post Rebirth?
> 
> Feels like a loose end they would get rid of.


I don't think so  :Confused:

----------


## LimeBright

> I know, but they are pushing 40 now..


Are they though? Where's this idea that they're 40? Selina has been depicted as at least 8-10 years younger than Bruce, since someone broke it down Tumblr.

She's at worst in her early 30s.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Are they though? Where's this idea that they're 40? Selina has been depicted as at least 8-10 years younger than Bruce, since someone broke it down Tumblr.
> 
> She's at worst in her early 30s.


I don't think Selina was ever that much younger than Bruce.  I don't know where that extreme gap came in. But they used to be closer in age. 

And if Selina at worst is early 30's then that would make Bruce pushing 40 if we use your answer.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know, but they are pushing 40 now. I just don't see it, LOL! But who knows, if they could somehow connect it. 
> 
> But at this point, we just have to see what even happens with Catwoman period with the upcoming Metal arc. Until we find out what the deal is in Issue 32, all this stuff that's happening now with her, BOP, whatever it is she does with Bane, it's all teasers.


Don't forget that in Rebirth, we have confirmation that everyone is 10 years too young.  :Smile:

----------


## Huntsman1117

> So I take it you're not crazy about the Burnside Batgirl design or Medusa, Queen of the Inhumans, outfit either ?


Not to mention The Huntress and Batman and Spoiler all wear purple. The inner lining of Batman's cape is now purple.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> A body sock? Okay. Seems like it wouldn't fit with the current design of the Batfamily. Also seems a bit too much like Talia's outfit.


Every super hero wears a body sock. It's not unusual. And if any super hero should wear something skin-tight and light-weight, it should be a sensuous female feline.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> No. I get where you're going but no. Selina needs a total overhaul and something eye-popping. She needs a complete makeover. She doesn't stand out on the shelf. The character isn't marketable. Image is a big part of comic books. The Cooke design has killed her appeal. It's stale now. The costume should go back to basics and be streamlined. It never made sense. The aviator cap just happened to have ears? The goggles going around the head always looks cumbersome and redundant. She hardly uses them for technical thievery. Then they just ended up trying to sexualize this unsexy costume. Just be done with it and bring back something like the 90s one. It doesn't have to be purple, but go back to the basic, iconic design.


I agree. She needs an exciting complete makeover.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Then what are you calling "angsty crap"? Valentine's run? Dini's work on the character? 
> 
> Also you might not have been around during that time, but Brubaker's run was very highly regarded even while it was being printed. It's literally her character-defining run. I'm not sure why you bring up sales as some kind of argument, when numbers don't count for quality at all. Vision was one of the best cape comics written in the past decade and it sold like complete garbage. EVEN then, 90s Catwoman didn't sell incredibly either. You don't seem to accounting for the fact that comics sales in general were better in the 90s than the early 2000s. Also, listing Devin Grayson as an "excellent creator" doesn't do your argument any favors. Her run sucked, and Dixon's was mediocre. All Ostrander did was phone in a couple tie-ins. It was all made worse by the fact it was drawn almost entirely by Jim Balent, whose overtly 90s art does not stand up to the test of time.
> 
> 90s Catwoman was one-note and a product of the time. There's no need to go back to that like it was some kind of creative golden age for the character, because it wasn't. It lacked any kind of ambition and not much really happened with Selina as a character even after like 100 issues, and nobody cared when Brubaker threw all that away because, well, there wasn't much TO throw away besides the bright purple boobsock outfit.


In the 90's, Catwoman outsold many of her peers including Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, and Birds of Prey and issues of the comic could be found anywere that sold magazines - even grocery stores. That is, until she ran for mayor of NY, cut her hair, and added whiskers & a tail to her monochromatic costume. It was all downhill from there. Brubaker's Catwoman - while excellently written - did not compete well in sells with peers, and steadily dropped off the top 100 comics charts. 
That has to mean something was unappealing to the 2000's Catwoman.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I agree. She needs an exciting complete makeover.


Like what though? I mean I new color maybe? 

By nature of her character, she is a thief OR at least a person who can break in and out of places, LOL. It's needs to be dark and sleek and flexible enough where she can move freely. 

I think with the way superheroes are so physical now, a dress wouldn't work. So what do people suggest?

----------


## Tuck

They're not going to change the costume.  It's very popular . . . at least outside this thread.

----------


## Frontier

> They're not going to change the costume.  It's very popular . . . at least outside this thread.


That's never stopped them before  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Like what though? I mean I new color maybe? 
> 
> By nature of her character, she is a thief OR at least a person who can break in and out of places, LOL. It's needs to be dark and sleek and flexible enough where she can move freely. 
> 
> I think with the way superheroes are so physical now, a dress wouldn't work. So what do people suggest?


With Selina as Catwoman: Bride of Batman, her costume could be a sleek, modernized version of her Silver Age costume. It could look similar to her Ame-Comi statue, or Mystique, or Sophie from "Toshinden," as shown here:

(If Batman, Robin, Batgirl, and the Huntress can sneak into buildings wearing long capes, then Catwoman can do it in this type of outfit):

71lhylrn-sL._SY450_.jpg

sofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpg

sofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

Uncanny_X-Men_Vol_4_2_Textless.jpg

2994355-ux2.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

> They're not going to change the costume.  It's very popular . . . at least outside this thread.


Every single person I know that has seen the current Catwoman in the comics, Injustice, or Injustice 2 always say, "Ew! THAT'S Catwoman? She looks awful."  Some say she looks like a man. And sometimes she looks like a praying mantis.

----------


## Tuck

> Every single person I know that has seen the current Catwoman in the comics, Injustice, or Injustice 2 always say, "Ew! THAT'S Catwoman? She looks awful."  Some say she looks like a man. And sometimes she looks like a praying mantis.


You need to interact with more people then.

Even on the internet, this is one of the few places where I run into the explicit dislike of the costume.

----------


## Atlanta96

> You need to interact with more people then.
> 
> Even on the internet, this is one of the few places where I run into the explicit dislike of the costume.


Whenever I post pictures of that costume on my twitter, people come in and say they hate it or its ugly or something negative. I have a very diverse following, many people are just sick of this costume. If they give her a new series they have lots of incentive to change it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Whenever I post pictures of that costume on my twitter, people come in and say they hate it or its ugly or something negative. I have a very diverse following, many people are just sick of this costume. If they give her a new series they have lots of incentive to change it.


I can see I need to say nice things about the costume on twitter, then.  :Wink:

----------


## Atlanta96

> I can see I need to say nice things about the costume on twitter, then.


Or you can just accept that some things are bad and deserve criticism or apathy.

----------


## Tuck

> Whenever I post pictures of that costume on my twitter, people come in and say they hate it or its ugly or something negative. I have a very diverse following, many people are just sick of this costume. If they give her a new series they have lots of incentive to change it.


Unless you're famous, the set of "people who read your twitter feed" is pretty small and targeted, regardless of demographic representation.

The people in most ordinary people's feeds are there because of overlap in interests.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Unless you're famous, the set of "people who read your twitter feed" is pretty small and targeted, regardless of demographic representation.
> 
> The people in most ordinary people's feeds are there because of overlap in interests.


Then what makes you so sure people aren't sick of the current costume? I've seen it criticized on multiple platforms, comment sections, and boards. It has its fans but OMG they've kept that look for 15 years and it's time for a change-up already. The way it's been drawn lately doesn't help with that, I can stomach Cooke of Hughes takes on that costume but now it looks terrible.

----------


## Tuck

> Then what makes you so sure people aren't sick of the current costume?


_Where_ the like and dislike are.

Critical circles (both "literary" and social) are where it is actively praised.  Casual fans, probably due to the Arkham games, like it.  And when I run into a peep from the industry itself, it's the Cooke costume they like.

The dislike I've seen comes exclusively from hardcore fans.

----------


## WontonGirl

Okay I like this one from the new upcoming Bat book, Batman: The Dark Prince Charming: 

Marini--Catwoman-SWOP900_596817cd1a4ce5.17904153.jpg

Here is the link for that book, there is also a thread for it on the board: 

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/07...m?sf97999134=1

----------


## millernumber1

> Or you can just accept that some things are bad and deserve criticism or apathy.


I do accept it. I just don't accept that Darwyn Cooke Catwoman is one of them.  :Wink:

----------


## WontonGirl

Many mainstream fans that I know are used to her wearing a Black sleek suit, maybe with a belt or so but they are fine with it. 

I would like to see her with long hair again,

----------


## WontonGirl

> With Selina as Catwoman: Bride of Batman, her costume could be a sleek, modernized version of her Silver Age costume. It could look similar to her Ame-Comi statue, or Mystique, or Sophie from "Toshinden," as shown here:
> 
> (If Batman, Robin, Batgirl, and the Huntress can sneak into buildings wearing long capes, then Catwoman can do it in this type of outfit):
> 
> 71lhylrn-sL._SY450_.jpg
> 
> sofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpg
> 
> sofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpgsofia___battle_arena_toshinden_2_by_dux_bjornulf-d6teuik.jpg


That sounds like a great title for a book: Bride of Batman...

----------


## Atlanta96

> _Where_ the like and dislike are.
> 
> Critical circles (both "literary" and social) are where it is actively praised.  Casual fans, probably due to the Arkham games, like it.  And when I run into a peep from the industry itself, it's the Cooke costume they like.
> 
> The dislike I've seen comes exclusively from hardcore fans.


Yeah, I don't think casual fans who prefer Selina looking like this
IMG_0952.jpg
Or this
IMG_0951.jpg
Are interested in a Selina who looks like this
IMG_0950.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Okay I like this one from the new upcoming Bat book, Batman: The Dark Prince Charming: 
> 
> Attachment 51575
> 
> Here is the link for that book, there is also a thread for it on the board: 
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/07...m?sf97999134=1


Random skin-holes are random  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Tuck

> Random skin-holes are random .


I think they're supposed to be "claw marks".

----------


## Frontier

> I think they're supposed to be "claw marks".


Still feel random (feels more fitting for a Vixen costume)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

All the belts on the arms and boots seem unnecessary as well.

----------


## Tuck

> Still feel random (feels more fitting for a Vixen costume) .


Wasn't saying they made sense (especially when the point of leather is protection), just that they seem like a thematic alteration.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Still feel random (feels more fitting for a Vixen costume) .
> 
> All the belts on the arms and boots seem unnecessary as well.


Goodness, LOL! Man this group got more opinions on one thing than I've ever seen in a group. Can't agree on anything  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Random skin-holes are random .


Works for NuHawkeye (not the best one, Kate  :Wink:  )

----------


## Katana500

> Okay I like this one from the new upcoming Bat book, Batman: The Dark Prince Charming: 
> 
> Attachment 51575
> 
> Here is the link for that book, there is also a thread for it on the board: 
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/07...m?sf97999134=1


I really like the costume and the art  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Works for NuHawkeye (not the best one, Kate  )


Heh, speaking of purple  :Wink: .

----------


## Tuck

> Heh, speaking of purple .


*My Eyes!*

stupid 10 character requirement

----------


## WontonGirl

Who was the artist that has a bunch of nudes of Catwoman, wasn't it Gilliam March? Did I spell that right? 

Jim Balent has done nudes of Cat too right?

The reason I asked was because I kept seeing people say they didn't like Jim's designs and I wonder if him doing nudes of Cat had something to do with her costume design. Meaning he draws her nude so his comic design would be more sensual.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Okay I like this one from the new upcoming Bat book, Batman: The Dark Prince Charming: 
> 
> Attachment 51575
> 
> Here is the link for that book, there is also a thread for it on the board: 
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/07...m?sf97999134=1


I like the slashes in the costume on the legs and torso, which I've advocated for a few months ago. I don't love the excessive buckles and baggage on her arms. I like that her goggles at least are almond shaped like cat eyes instead of being huge and circular.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Guillem March himself wanted to redesign Catwoman for her 2011 relaunch. He wrote on his design concepts that her current cowl is "ugly" and that he prefers "no goggles" and no belt or anything around her waist. However, I'm glad these designs weren't used. Here are the design sheets: 

c11.jpg

c2.jpg

And here is a nude drawn by March: 

4999aa59f0aa8dc1d577696cc85951e6.jpg

It's censored with panels of Alfred and Bruce's shocked eyes.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> You need to interact with more people then.
> 
> Even on the internet, this is one of the few places where I run into the explicit dislike of the costume.


HO HO! Well aren't you and your "circles" special! You should all get an award for being the only people whose opinions matter! Bless you!

What message boards are you referring to? The ones where everyone favors the Cooke design? I want to read them myself. 

And if it is hardcore Catwoman fans (who aren't in your special little critical circles)  who want her to have a new costume, why not give the fans what they want?

----------


## WontonGirl

> I like the slashes in the costume on the legs and torso, which I've advocated for a few months ago. I don't love the excessive buckles and baggage on her arms. I like that her goggles at least are almond shaped like cat eyes instead of being huge and circular.


Yeah I do like that the goggles match the shape of her eyes too. 

It seems like she is wearing a fitted jacket, no?

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

The problem I find with the Cooke costume that it took most of her feminity away, which is part of her originality, while the Balent costume payed homage to her purple dress design and kept her femininity. Today the short hair and tomboy look is not as unique as when it was first created for Catwoman, e.g Vixen, you have to read their name of the character to be sure who you are looking at. 
And the argument of her feminine look is over sexualizing her, well why haven't they taken away Poison Ivy's feminity?? she still looks like how she was created, pale skinned, red hair and green costume while Catwoman has gone through many image changes and the Cooke design making her look tomboyish rather than feminine. It says a woman cannot be feminine and be smart, independent and in control of her own destiny. There is also the argument that a woman can't have long hair as it's a weakness in combat, yet you have Wonder Woman, Batwoman, Batgirl all sporting long hair while they took that look from Catwoman.

I believe what they should do is modernize Balent's design, which is a simple yet flattering design. And instead of the purple change it to a gray or charcoal living the gloves and boots black. And the texture of the body suit should be leathery rather than a bodysocks. 

Like this:
https://www.**********.com/artwork/e0QeY

Except she should have Cateye goggles to hide her eyes.

----------


## Tuck

Catwoman has never not looked feminine.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Catwoman has never not looked feminine.


IMG_0957.jpg
IMG_0958.jpg

----------


## Tuck

Her suits during the Valentine run are clearly women's suits in the interior.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Her suits during the Valentine run are clearly women's suits in the interior.


She looks like a man with lipstick in the second picture. Sometimes she looks like a man in a catsuit with breasts photoshopped onto him, like the first picture.

----------


## Tuck

> She looks like a man with lipstick in the second picture. Sometimes she looks like a man in a catsuit with breasts photoshopped onto him, like the first picture.


Your problem is with the art then.

----------


## Frontier

> Catwoman has never not looked feminine.


Well, _Year One_ probably had her looking at her most Butch, but if there's one thing I respect about Cooke's design sheet for Selina is his explicitly saying her style was *NOT* Butch (or sleazy for that matter).

----------


## Atlanta96

> Your problem is with the art then.


*facepalms* You literally just said this




> Catwoman has never not looked feminine.


It was always about art.

----------


## Tuck

> *facepalms* You literally just said this
> 
> 
> 
> It was always about art.


In response to complaints about short hair and some imagined abandonment of femininity in favor of tomboyishness since the Brubaker run.

And again, go into the interior of those issues.  She doesn't look like a man.  (Also, technically Eiko is the sole Catwoman for a chunk of that run.)

----------


## Atlanta96

> In response to complaints about short hair and some imagined abandonment of femininity in favor of tomboyishness since the Brubaker run.
> 
> And again, go into the interior of those issues.  She doesn't look like a man.  (Also, technically Eiko is the sole Catwoman for a chunk of that run.)


Wrong again.

IMG_0959.JPG

----------


## Tuck

> Wrong again.
> 
> IMG_0959.JPG


Doesn't look like a man there.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Doesn't look like a man there.


LOL you're actually trying to pass that off as "feminine". Dude, sometimes it's better to just admit you were wrong.

----------


## Tuck

> LOL you're actually trying to pass that off as "feminine". Dude, sometimes it's better to just admit you were wrong.


There are 31 flavors.  You don't have to like them all.

----------


## Atlanta96

> There are 31 flavors.  You don't have to like them all.


Like what you want but don't stretch the truth or redefine words.

----------


## Tuck

> Like what you want but don't stretch the truth or redefine words.


Your narrow view is not my redefinition.

There is nothing tomboyish about Selina . . . really other than maybe the the ass-kicking, which no one is complaining about.

But let's put the Valentine run aside, just to take it out of the equation.

Where is this generally unfeminine, tomboy Catwoman that's been around since Cooke put her in what we're acting like is muumuu draped over a chastity belt?

----------


## Frontier

I hear the pixie cut is trending right now among women, is that true?

----------


## WontonGirl

> The problem I find with the Cooke costume that it took most of her feminity away, which is part of her originality, while the Balent costume payed homage to her purple dress design and kept her femininity. Today the short hair and tomboy look is not as unique as when it was first created for Catwoman, e.g Vixen, you have to read their name of the character to be sure who you are looking at. 
> And the argument of her feminine look is over sexualizing her, well why haven't they taken away Poison Ivy's feminity?? she still looks like how she was created, pale skinned, red hair and green costume while Catwoman has gone through many image changes and the Cooke design making her look tomboyish rather than feminine. It says a woman cannot be feminine and be smart, independent and in control of her own destiny. There is also the argument that a woman can't have long hair as it's a weakness in combat, yet you have Wonder Woman, Batwoman, Batgirl all sporting long hair while they took that look from Catwoman.
> 
> I believe what they should do is modernize Balent's design, which is a simple yet flattering design. And instead of the purple change it to a gray or charcoal living the gloves and boots black. And the texture of the body suit should be leathery rather than a bodysocks. 
> 
> Like this:
> https://www.**********.com/artwork/e0QeY
> 
> Except she should have Cateye goggles to hide her eyes.


This is a great suit for her. 

I think also if they just grew her hair out a little, like even a cute pixie cut, maybe some neck length or collarbone layers, she still would look great.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I hear the pixie cut is trending right now among women, is that true?


Looking through my Facebook friends, consisting almost entirely of 20 somethings, all the girls have either long hair or mid length hair. Nothing resembling a pixie cut. At college I knew a couple girls with brightly colored highlights but nothing resembling a pixie or a buzzcut. Make of that what you will.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Your narrow view is not my redefinition.
> 
> There is nothing tomboyish about Selina . . . really other than maybe the the ass-kicking, which no one is complaining about.
> 
> But let's put the Valentine run aside, just to take it out of the equation.
> 
> Where is this generally unfeminine, tomboy Catwoman that's been around since Cooke put her in what we're acting like is muumuu draped over a chastity belt?


Most of Catwomans solo issues towards the end of her run depicted her as androgynous, sexless, and downright unflattering. As did one or two of her Rebirth appearances. She's lost a lot of the glamour and sex appeal that people associated with the character, and present day Selina comes off as very dull and unremarkable as a result.

----------


## Caivu

> Doesn't look like a man there.


Seconded.

10char

----------


## WontonGirl

I think a lot of fans are fine with the Black suits.  :Smile:

----------


## godisawesome

Count me as a guy who likes the purple. At the risk of following Jim Lee's excuse for nonsensically changing Nightwing from blue to red, it "pops" better. And my main problem with the Cooke design is that it's still seems a bit too minamilist in regular artist hands. I think it worked good in Cooke's hands because he used a very retro design for his run on everything. And while I don't mind the goggles, I'd prefer if her cowl had mask straps present even without them; the cartoon The Batman's design nails how I'd like the leather suit to look if it doesn't get a major overhaul.

----------


## Punisher007

The purple has always looked stupid to me.  At least the black or grey more mimics an actual cat.

And the problem with the "femininity" argument is that what constitutes "feminine" means very different things to different people.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I hear the pixie cut is trending right now among women, is that true?


It was popular a few years back.  Miley Cyrus, Kaley Cuoco.  But now they have let their hair grow long again. Time for Catwoman to get with the times and grow her hair out again.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> This is a great suit for her. 
> 
> I think also if they just grew her hair out a little, like even a cute pixie cut, maybe some neck length or collarbone layers, she still would look great.


I'm glad you agree with me about the costume although I think it would work much better as a gray or charcoal. since purple is being overdone at the moment by other characters.

I like the pixie haircut as well, however, when she first appeared with it, she stood out due to being one of the very few with that hair cut. But nowadays there are other female characters sporting that look e.g Vixen The short pixie haircut also lets some artist draw her in a less feminine and unflattering fashion. I think a better compromise is having a curly asymetric haircut, a half short and half long similar to this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...l-haircuts.jpg

A little bit untamed, sexy and edgy, which depicts Selina to a T.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm glad you agree with me about the costume although I think it would work much better as a gray or charcoal. since purple is being overdone at the moment by other characters.
> 
> I like the pixie haircut as well, however, when she first appeared with it, she stood out due to being one of the very few with that hair cut. But nowadays there are other female characters sporting that look e.g Vixen The short pixie haircut also lets some artist draw her in a less feminine and unflattering fashion. I think a better compromise is having a curly asymetric haircut, a half short and half long similar to this:
> 
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...l-haircuts.jpg
> 
> A little bit untamed, sexy and edgy, which depicts Selina to a T.


Yes, that's a good look too, maybe just a tad bit longer but yeah, it would look good on her.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Like this:
https://www.**********.com/artwork/e0QeY

Except she should have Cateye goggles to hide her eyes.[/QUOTE]

I love that design and so do my friends and coworkers.

----------


## Huntsman1117

FB_IMG_1491805381873.jpg

I drew this a few months ago. I welcome any thoughts and criticisms. It's a bit over-the-top but I was drunk.

----------


## WontonGirl

> FB_IMG_1491805381873.jpg
> 
> I drew this a few months ago. I welcome any thoughts and criticisms. It's a bit over-the-top but I was drunk.


Perhaps if it was just all purple maybe?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> FB_IMG_1491805381873.jpg
> 
> I drew this a few months ago. I welcome any thoughts and criticisms. It's a bit over-the-top but I was drunk.


Overall I like it. But I don't think Catwoman should have stripes. That's more of a Tigress thing.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

It wouldn't be such a bad idea either if Catwoman had multiple disguises, to keep her mystery. She could use something like the emp mask https://nerdeux.files.wordpress.com/.../batman1-2.jpg to change her appearance drastically, and have many looks like she always had in the past. I think more recent stories involving Catwoman bypass all of those cool things she used to do, hence why her comics books seem to drag on sometimes (especially new 52).

----------


## Huntsman1117

> It wouldn't be such a bad idea either if Catwoman had multiple disguises, to keep her mystery. She could use something like the emp mask https://nerdeux.files.wordpress.com/.../batman1-2.jpg to change her appearance drastically, and have many looks like she always had in the past. I think more recent stories involving Catwoman bypass all of those cool things she used to do, hence why her comics books seem to drag on sometimes (especially new 52).


Agreed. Disguising herself as an elderly woman was, after all, her very first M.O. in "Batman" vol 1 #1.

----------


## Starrius

> It's really bad that the Catwoman movie turned out to be so bad because the hype for the movie was insane! But I really think it was more hype for Halle Berry plus I think a lot of people, especially fans of color, were excited because they saw this as the "movie" version of Eartha Kitt who of course is know for her portrayal of Catwoman from the 60's TV show.


I didn't even bother watching it because it wasn't about Selina Kyle. 
I knew that it would bomb because of that.

----------


## tbgo

> Guillem March himself wanted to redesign Catwoman for her 2011 relaunch. He wrote on his design concepts that her current cowl is "ugly" and that he prefers "no goggles" and no belt or anything around her waist. However, I'm glad these designs weren't used. Here are the design sheets: 
> 
> Attachment 51589
> 
> Attachment 51590
> 
> And here is a nude drawn by March: 
> 
> Attachment 51592
> ...



That's what they should have gone with! The goggles are redundant and have to go.

----------


## Vanguard-01

Hey, guys! Looking for a fun portrayal of Selina? DC Superhero Girls finally gave her an episode where she's more than just a background character! Loved her characterization here!

----------


## Frontier

What's more Catwoman then finding something she wants and planning a successful heist to get it, all the while playing everyone for a fiddle  :Wink: ?

Even her voice is pretty good. Such class and charm  :Embarrassment: .

I also really like her design. The purple highlights are pretty neat  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## WontonGirl

I'm wondering if King will update her outfit in Rebirth?

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Hey, guys! Looking for a fun portrayal of Selina? DC Superhero Girls finally gave her an episode where she's more than just a background character! Loved her characterization here!


I've never watched the show, but when I first heard of it a while back I checked to see what Catwoman would look like. I was a little mad that Catwoman was nowhere to be found. It would be nice if younger audiences had more opportunity to get introduced to her as someone more than a background character. I'm glad they finally have her an episode of her own. Here's to more!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I've never watched the show, but when I first heard of it a while back I checked to see what Catwoman would look like. I was a little mad that Catwoman was nowhere to be found. It would be nice if younger audiences had more opportunity to get introduced to her as someone more than a background character. I'm glad they finally have her an episode of her own. Here's to more!


I mostly started watching it because it had Supergirl in it. But was surprised it had Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy in it but no Catwoman.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I've never watched the show, but when I first heard of it a while back I checked to see what Catwoman would look like. I was a little mad that Catwoman was nowhere to be found. It would be nice if younger audiences had more opportunity to get introduced to her as someone more than a background character. I'm glad they finally have her an episode of her own. Here's to more!


Yeah, she's been in the show pretty much since the beginning, but she's almost always just walking around in the background. Occasionally, she did something kinda useful in an action sequence for a couple seconds. But this is definitely the most exposure she's gotten since the beginning. 

And yeah, hopefully this is the first of many solid episodes for her.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder how much trouble she'll be in for stealing that amulet and setting off Ares  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> I wonder how much trouble she'll be in for stealing that amulet and setting off Ares ?


Realistically, this could get her expelled from the school. We haven't seen anyone getting expelled yet, but the showrunners said a long time ago that not every character at Superhero High would graduate and go on to become heroes. And again: realistically Selina should've caused quite a bit of damage and even death with a stunt like this. Seems like pretty good grounds for expulsion from a superhero school to me. 

Hopefully she won't be expelled. Riddler kidnapped an innocent man and broke several other laws just for a ridiculously elaborate scheme to ask Batgirl to go out with him and he's still at the school. He definitely was arrested and spent at least some time in jail, but I've definitely seen him around since that episode.

----------


## Frontier

> Realistically, this could get her expelled from the school. We haven't seen anyone getting expelled yet, but the showrunners said a long time ago that not every character at Superhero High would graduate and go on to become heroes. And again: realistically Selina should've caused quite a bit of damage and even death with a stunt like this. Seems like pretty good grounds for expulsion from a superhero school to me. 
> 
> Hopefully she won't be expelled. Riddler kidnapped an innocent man and broke several other laws just for a ridiculously elaborate scheme to ask Batgirl to go out with him and he's still at the school. He definitely was arrested and spent at least some time in jail, but I've definitely seen him around since that episode.


Yeah...I mean, she committed theft, basically, and manipulated the female Trinity and Harley and Ivy to do it, so it's not like she's "innocent" or anything in this. 

I would think this warrants either an expulsion or being arrested, but it might depend on how resistant she is to giving the amulet back and making up for what she did. If she's willing to help once she sees what's going on with Ares, the mitigating circumstances might land her a slap on the wrist and a detention at best.  

Though I would not be surprised if this ends with someone slapping the cuffs on Catwoman or her scurrying off to avoid getting in trouble, particularly given this is about on par with what Riddler did and Batgirl had no reservations about arresting him.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Having watched The Handmaiden... Chan-wook Park would make a great director for a Catwoman movie (or Gotham City Sirens) if only he were interested.  :Frown:  :Frown:  The Handmaiden features a catwomanesque character, kinda undercover in a mansion she plans to rob. Sets and costumes are beautiful photographed. A pipe dream, I know.

----------


## WontonGirl

Some news about Gotham City Sirens: 

http://dccomicsnews.com/2017/07/22/w...icide-squad-2/

----------


## WontonGirl

Some Kitty Kat news: 

Aubrey Plaza's interest in playing DCEU Catwoman
http://www.cinemablend.com/news/1682...-wants-to-play

Halle Berry, who played Catwoman onscreen, shares her thoughts on Gal Gagot
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/catwoma...221955535.html

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Having watched The Handmaiden... Chan-wook Park would make a great director for a Catwoman movie (or Gotham City Sirens) if only he were interested.  The Handmaiden features a catwomanesque character, kinda undercover in a mansion she plans to rob. Sets and costumes are beautiful photographed. A pipe dream, I know.


David Ayer is directing Gotham City Sirens.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> David Ayer is directing Gotham City Sirens.


I wish he weren't and as I said: I know!

----------


## Frontier



----------


## Vanguard-01

Gah! Frontier beat me to posting Part 3!  :Embarrassment: 

Oh well! Here's Part 2 for those of you who want to see the entire story. Selina doesn't appear in this one, but at least you can see how everything unfolded.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> 


Seriously, is this just about the perfect Catwoman or what? She's fun, sassy, and even her kleptomania manages to be almost charming. Take notes, DC writers!

----------


## Frontier

Yeah, I really enjoyed what we got with Catwoman in this, and that she managed to come around in the end to help save the day (which is probably what netted her 6-7 months in detention rather then a stay at Belle Reve)  :Embarrassment: . 

I hope we see more of her in future Webisodes, since she makes for a fun contrast with the other girls  :Smile: .

I also really like her character design in this. The purple highlights and detailing on really adds some character and color into the normal catsuit look which I think really works (as well as getting to see more of her eyes). I wouldn't mind some of that being incorporated into the comics...

----------


## Aioros22

Any design is better than the Miss(black)Fury rip-off suit that got ingrained in the character since Miller`s Year One.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Nice new statue coming soon.

Screenshot_20170809-025117.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

There really needs to be a groundbreaking scene where Bat & Cat have been in a tense relationship, they've come to a highly critical fight (ex: either Bat or Cat wants to killer Joker, Riddler, or Penguin, and the other has to stop them) and Catwoman demands Batman fight her without his toys & armor...and after a brutal fight, she actually knocks him out and barely escapes being killed by Damian, with Dick present to fight Damian off from killing her as she barely escapes. Dick umderstands the love between Bat & Cat because he has been in love a few times himself and he is familiar with these emotions and heartbreak.  Damian just thinks Selina is a whore. Dick then had to counsel Bruce, who loses is mind with grief and heartache knowing that he and Selina can't be together...a realization she also admits with shouts and tears as she begrudgingly slinks away the broken victor.

----------


## Huntsman1117

And I mean a bare-knuckle brawl between Bruce and Selina where she infuriates him to give it his all without armor & weapons tp defeat her; only she defeats him using her cat-like reflexes, agility, and finesse to actually knock him out cold...not without sustaining physical and emotional injury.

----------


## Caivu

Well... I'm curious as to what brought up _that_ line of thought.

I mean, I like fight scenes too, but I'm not seeing the rationale here.

----------


## dietrich

> There really needs to be a groundbreaking scene where Bat & Cat have been in a tense relationship, they've come to a highly critical fight (ex: either Bat or Cat wants to killer Joker, Riddler, or Penguin, and the other has to stop them) and Catwoman demands Batman fight her without his toys & armor...and after a brutal fight, she actually knocks him out and barely escapes being killed by Damian, with Dick present to fight Damian off from killing her as she barely escapes. Dick umderstands the love between Bat & Cat because he has been in love a few times himself and he is familiar with these emotions and heartbreak.  Damian just thinks Selina is a whore. Dick then had to counsel Bruce, who loses is mind with grief and heartache knowing that he and Selina can't be together...a realization she also admits with shouts and tears as she begrudgingly slinks away the broken victor.


As fun as that sounds I really don't want Damian thinking of Selina like that. He hasn't been that sexist since pre 52

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well... I'm curious as to what brought up _that_ line of thought.
> 
> I mean, I like fight scenes too, but I'm not seeing the rationale here.


I know! Why would these two have that type of fight? Bruce and Selina have no anger toward each other and they are past fighting each other. 

Plus they did that decades ago when Bat and Cat were fighting almost to the death over their issues and jealousy and Vicki Vale. They collapsed in each other's arms and forgave each other.

----------


## Celgress

> Seriously, is this just about the perfect Catwoman or what? She's fun, sassy, and even her kleptomania manages to be almost charming. Take notes, DC writers!


I agree, this is the best rendition of the character yet IMO.

----------


## Huntsman1117

This line of thought comes from reading a few interviews with Tom King on the proposal to Catwoman and what the results of her answer given in Batman #32 in October. It also comes with a statement that Bruce has said more than once: that she is his equal. Only the world doesn't know that  because they haven't seen the evidence. Catwoman is not treated as Batman's equal. And she has been upstaged by Batgirl in martial arts and physical ability  several times in the comics and on television. I think it's time we see Catwoman actually defeat Batman without him going easy on her, in Batman's comic - not her own. It would earn her more respect and she wouldn't be treated as someone who is physically inferior to so many other characters.

Tom King says that Batman's secret in the War of Jokes and Riddles will shock her and she will realize that he is not the man she thought she knew. Then she will make her decision toward his propsal. Then Batman will travel to thd desert to do something illegal as a result of Selina's decision. He says we can also expect a reaction from Damien when he finds out Bruce proposed to Selina -a thief and former prostitute - rather than his own mother.  So, I'm betting Selina says "yes". Tom King believes that people would vote for her to say "yes". He believes people want to see Bruce happy and that marriage could do that. But Tom wants to ask the question, "will marriage make Bruce happy?"  I'm not sure it would 100% and I see at least one huge fight between them while they are engaged or married. Because sometimes, love leads to hate when one lover lies to, betrays, directly opposes, and hurts the other. 

I want to see more of Catwoman and I want her to have a better role in the DCU. I want her to accept Bruce's proposal but I don't want their relationship to be an easy one. And I want Catwoman to be verified as Batman's true equal, deserving his love and respect more than anyone else.

----------


## Caivu

I don't think that's what equal means here. It's not that they're equal in terms of physical ability or whatever, though Selina is highly skilled. It's closer to them being equal in how psychologically damaged they are, making it easy for them to understand each other. I know King has said something to that effect.

----------


## WontonGirl

> This line of thought comes from reading a few interviews with Tom King on the proposal to Catwoman and what the results of her answer given in Batman #32 in October. It also comes with a statement that Bruce has said more than once: that she is his equal. Only the world doesn't know that  because they haven't seen the evidence. Catwoman is not treated as Batman's equal. And she has been upstaged by Batgirl in martial arts and physical ability  several times in the comics and on television. I think it's time we see Catwoman actually defeat Batman without him going easy on her, in Batman's comic - not her own. It would earn her more respect and she wouldn't be treated as someone who is physically inferior to so many other characters.
> 
> Tom King says that Batman's secret in the War of Jokes and Riddles will shock her and she will realize that he is not the man she thought she knew. Then she will make her decision toward his propsal. Then Batman will travel to thd desert to do something illegal as a result of Selina's decision. He says we can also expect a reaction from Damien when he finds out Bruce proposed to Selina -a thief and former prostitute - rather than his own mother.  So, I'm betting Selina says "yes". Tom King believes that people would vote for her to say "yes". He believes people want to see Bruce happy and that marriage could do that. But Tom wants to ask the question, "will marriage make Bruce happy?"  I'm not sure it would 100% and I see at least one huge fight between them while they are engaged or married. Because sometimes, love leads to hate when one lover lies to, betrays, directly opposes, and hurts the other. 
> 
> I want to see more of Catwoman and I want her to have a better role in the DCU. I want her to accept Bruce's proposal but I don't want their relationship to be an easy one. And I want Catwoman to be verified as Batman's true equal, deserving his love and respect more than anyone else.


Okay, you didn't really say it like that at first. Or at least that's not how it came off. 

Um, did you see the article where they asked Tom King at Comic Con how would a "Batman/Catwoman" marriage look like and Tom gave his response as if he was Batman. 

I used to think all the stuff you mentioned in your post. But you know what? At the end of the day, we got a writer who likes Catwoman, likes Batman and Catwoman, thinks they are soulmates and he grew up LOVING Catwoman. We got a writer who says that's what he is. So if Cat, for whatever reason says NO, I think with King, that doesn't mean it's the end of Batman and Catwoman as a couple in his books.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I want to see more of Catwoman and I want her to have a better role in the DCU. I want her to accept Bruce's proposal but I don't want their relationship to be an easy one. And I want Catwoman to be verified as Batman's true equal, deserving his love and respect more than anyone else.


You know what makes Catwoman different from all the other women he has dated and loved? The way he sees her. He sees her as a "partner". He has never really seen the other women that way. Sure, he has "teamed up" with lots of different women and also past loves BUT he has never asked any of them to be his partner. 

Bruce respects Selina way more than you are giving him credit for. And it has shown. Even during Morrison's run and Synder's run. In All-Star Batman, she was used as a very important ally, not as one of the rogues. 

Bruce and Selina's marriage may not be conventional, but it will be easy-going for THEM. We don't need nor want to see them bickering all the time as a married couple. And personally, I don't think they would do it.

----------


## Huntsman1117

No, I wouldn't want to see them bickering all the time. That would quickly get tiresome. So, you're right about that. And I can agree that Bat & Cat are equals mainly due to their similar broken childhoods. I suppose that is true. I just think Catwoman needs something to happen to establish her as a more powerful, respectable, and influential force in the DCU. Maybe that's asking a lot, but I'm tired of her being treated as a slightly inferior, third-tier character. For example, she lost every confrontation she had in the Injustice comic series. She wasn't even strategic in her confrontations with Wonder Woman and Sinestro. She was foolish and easily defeated. And recently in the Batgirl and Birds of Prey comics, she's taken down quickly by Batgirl, whose silhouette Catwoman mistakenly thought was Batman's. (WTF?!) It's as if Catwoman only has one thing going for her: breaking into buildings. She's inferior to most popular characters at every other skill. That was not the case during her heyday in the 90's where she was bigger force to be reconed with, even as a guest star in other books.

----------


## Caivu

> I just think Catwoman needs something to happen to establish her as a more powerful, respectable, and influential force in the DCU.


What would this entail? How "big" should she be in-universe? It sounds like her in-universe clout should be proportional to how popular she is in the real world, and I don't think that's necessarily a good idea.




> For example, she lost every confrontation she had in the Injustice comic series.


She beat Damian.

----------


## WontonGirl

> No, I wouldn't want to see them bickering all the time. That would quickly get tiresome. So, you're right about that. And I can agree that Bat & Cat are equals mainly due to their similar broken childhoods. I suppose that is true. I just think Catwoman needs something to happen to establish her as a more powerful, respectable, and influential force in the DCU. Maybe that's asking a lot, but I'm tired of her being treated as a slightly inferior, third-tier character. For example, she lost every confrontation she had in the Injustice comic series. She wasn't even strategic in her confrontations with Wonder Woman and Sinestro. She was foolish and easily defeated. And recently in the Batgirl and Birds of Prey comics, she's taken down quickly by Batgirl, whose silhouette Catwoman mistakenly thought was Batman's. (WTF?!) It's as if Catwoman only has one thing going for her: breaking into buildings. She's inferior to most popular characters at every other skill. That was not the case during her heyday in the 90's where she was bigger force to be reconed with, even as a guest star in other books.


Not only because of their broken childhoods, but they are equals in the way they are with each other. They don't bullshit each other. That's not to say that other female he knows are not honest with him because at various times, they are BUT with all of the other people, he doesn't remain hidden. He can be standoffish BUT he is not hidden to her. She ask him a question, he tells her the answer. He ask her how she is "really" doing and he really is the only person she will let that wall down with. Lots of other things make them equal too but that's one of the reasons. 

As far as Catwoman's popularity. Look, a comic book doesn't sell out and go to the 4th printing if people weren't interested in that particular book's story. And THAT story was Batman proposing to Catwoman. She is STILL popular in mainstream, casual and "used to read" comic book fans. And she is definitely popular in the mainstream and casual public. 

Catwoman is completely bad ass. BUT I think that because she is both "friend and foe", that can help her and harm her. THAT'S where the problem lies. She's bad ass on her own and she's bad ass when she is helping Batman and she's bad ass when she teaming up with people BUT sometimes her bad ass nature is not shown completely. Sometimes it's shown in her own comic, sometimes in an AU, sometimes in the main title, definitely in the video games.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> She beat Damian.


Well she and a bunch of other guys beat Damian off-panel, and it was after she had taken a superpill. They fought 1v1 later and he kicked her ass but she managed to distract him and get away.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well she and a bunch of other guys beat Damian off-panel, and it was after she had taken a superpill. They fought 1v1 later and he kicked her ass but she managed to distract him and get away.


Catwoman is a skilled fighter. I think her fighting is more acrobatic but she can take out some folks now.

----------


## Caivu

> Well she and a bunch of other guys beat Damian off-panel, and it was after she had taken a superpill.


I don't recall either of those things happening. It was solo, off-panel, and she hadn't taken a pill because she was disguised as a Regime soldier.

----------


## CryNotWolf

It wasn't solo because she had a group of guys helping her. And she most definitely took a pill because she snapped his steel staff in half effortlessly. Also it's only logical to assume that they took superpills when invading the damn Hall of Justice. And did you miss the part where Harley blew herself and Catwoman up and both of them were unscathed? Read it better next time.

----------


## Caivu

> It wasn't solo because she had a group of guys helping her. And she most definitely took a pill because she snapped his steel staff in half effortlessly. Also it's only logical to assume that they took superpills when invading the damn Hall of Justice. And did you miss the part where Harley blew herself and Catwoman up and both of them were unscathed? Read it better next time.


Hey, lighten up. It's been a while since I've read it.

I remember Harley blowing herself up, but Catwoman had on a full suit of armor, so that's easy enough to explain. I can remember Damian's staff breaking, but that was from hitting the suit:



I don't remember anyone else being there at all, though other images from the search I did show that there were. Not really seeing evidence that they all fought him, though.

The way I remember it, the fight took place between issues, and the next issue after the initial confrontation opened with Selina walking away from Damian in a crater on the floor.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> What would this entail? How "big" should she be in-universe? It sounds like her in-universe clout should be proportional to how popular she is in the real world, and I don't think that's necessarily a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> She beat Damian.





> What would this entail? How "big" should she be in-universe? It sounds like her in-universe clout should be proportional to how popular she is in the real world, and I don't think that's necessarily a good idea.


Not sure what you mean here, but for example Joker, Robin, Lex Luthor, Black Canary, and even Batgirl seem to have a higher status and more respect in the DCU than Catwoman does now. 



I wouldn't consider that a true victory. She gave him a scratch and ran. He outran her and jump-flipped in front of her. He's clearly faster than her. She attacks again and he slugs her in the gut, putting her on the ground. Then she brings up some personal talk with him and while he's contemplating, she throws dust in his eyes & flees. He doesn't bother to chase her, but is still standing. That's not a victory, it's a tricky escape.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Not only because of their broken childhoods, but they are equals in the way they are with each other. They don't bullshit each other. That's not to say that other female he knows are not honest with him because at various times, they are BUT with all of the other people, he doesn't remain hidden. He can be standoffish BUT he is not hidden to her. She ask him a question, he tells her the answer. He ask her how she is "really" doing and he really is the only person she will let that wall down with. Lots of other things make them equal too but that's one of the reasons. 
> 
> As far as Catwoman's popularity. Look, a comic book doesn't sell out and go to the 4th printing if people weren't interested in that particular book's story. And THAT story was Batman proposing to Catwoman. She is STILL popular in mainstream, casual and "used to read" comic book fans. And she is definitely popular in the mainstream and casual public. 
> 
> Catwoman is completely bad ass. BUT I think that because she is both "friend and foe", that can help her and harm her. THAT'S where the problem lies. She's bad ass on her own and she's bad ass when she is helping Batman and she's bad ass when she teaming up with people BUT sometimes her bad ass nature is not shown completely. Sometimes it's shown in her own comic, sometimes in an AU, sometimes in the main title, definitely in the video games.


I want to believe that's true. But usually when she appears in comics other than her own title (which can't sell), she is inferior, third-tier, quickly defeated in combat if she fights, and is only valuable because of her burglary skills and information.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nice new statue coming soon.
> 
> Attachment 52778


There`s the Miss Fury rip-off right there. 

They should at least make it look more like Gotham or with a hint of the classic purple dress and caper.

----------


## Caivu

> Not sure what you mean here, but for example Joker, Robin, Lex Luthor, Black Canary, and even Batgirl seem to have a higher status and more respect in the DCU than Catwoman does now.


I guess I'm not clear on what you mean by being "respected" in the DCU. 




> I wouldn't consider that a true victory. She gave him a scratch and ran. He outran her and jump-flipped in front of her. He's clearly faster than her. She attacks again and he slugs her in the gut, putting her on the ground. Then she brings up some personal talk with him and while he's contemplating, she throws dust in his eyes & flees. He doesn't bother to chase her, but is still standing. That's not a victory, it's a tricky escape.


That's not the fight I was talking about. I was thinking of the offscreen one in Year Two, not this one.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Hey, lighten up. It's been a while since I've read it.
> 
> I remember Harley blowing herself up, but Catwoman had on a full suit of armor, so that's easy enough to explain. I can remember Damian's staff breaking, but that was from hitting the suit:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember anyone else being there at all, though other images from the search I did show that there were. Not really seeing evidence that they all fought him, though.
> 
> The way I remember it, the fight took place between issues, and the next issue after the initial confrontation opened with Selina walking away from Damian in a crater on the floor.


So she takes a massive explosion to the face that flings her over a hundred feet, snaps a metal staff without even flinching like she was made of marble, leaves Damian lying in a crater on concrete...and you think it's even remotely likely that she didn't partake in the plot device that would allow her to do such things, and that we know she had ample access to? And you're also saying it's possible she had that group of people behind her that she brought along just to watch? 

Right, sounds like the most logical options. Also I'm not sure why you're acting like that suit is some kind of power-armor, nothing of the sort is ever even hinted at in the book.

----------


## Caivu

> So she takes a massive explosion to the face that flings her over a hundred feet, snaps a metal staff without even flinching like she was made of marble, leaves Damian lying in a crater on concrete...and you think it's even remotely likely that she didn't partake in the plot device that would allow her to do such things, and that we know she had ample access to? And you're also saying it's possible she had that group of people behind her that she brought along just to watch? 
> 
> Right, sounds like the most logical options. Also I'm not sure why you're acting like that suit is some kind of power-armor, nothing of the sort is ever even hinted at in the book.


Hey, I'm just going off what I remember, and I don't have a copy in front of me. If she's wearing armor, that could account for two of those things for sure.

Even if she did take a pill, doesn't it stand to reason that Damian took one too, since he cratered the ground instead of splattering all over it?

I'm just saying that neither of them had the advantage in that regard. They either both had it, or neither did.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I want to believe that's true. But usually when she appears in comics other than her own title (which can't sell), she is inferior, third-tier, quickly defeated in combat if she fights, and is only valuable because of her burglary skills and information.


Look, I think what you want is for Catwoman to be restored to her "former glory" so to speak in the DCU. But here is what you have to remember. For the past 10 or so years, (2006-2016), you had 2 writers that were writing the main Batbooks that either put Catwoman on the backburner OR hardly had her there in Bruce's world at all. I mean, the tie-ins during Morrison's run is really what kept Catwoman around but he, himself, barely touched her with his own pen. And then Synder, well in the main books, no. Batman Eternal, well yeah but still. Now different N52 tie-ins and various AU stories since 2006, sure she was definitely in it because a lot of writers love writing Catwoman. So it's going to take some time for her to get back on top. She is STILL one of the most beloved characters in the Batman comics, DC Comics and in Comics period. You just have to have that writer who will let her, shoot at least be in the book. At least with King, she is a breathing character again that can interact with Batman in the MAIN title. 

Her comics sold BUT N52 version (Volume 4), well that didn't sell as well. Not because she wasn't respected or people didn't like her anymore but the books just wasn't up to snuff. 

But anyway, I think King, who says he is a HUGE Catwoman fan and is a fan of BatCat, is trying to get her back to her more inclusionary status. He wanted her in the earlier issues more but he also is trying to tell a certain story about Batman too. 

But she is NOT inferior. I mean, she doesn't even interact with people like Lex Luther so that's not a fair comparision. And Lex and Joker will ALWAYS be in the Superman and Batman comics. Batgirl did NOT get the upper hand with Catwoman in BoP and in the MAIN Batbooks, she wins her fights. So I don't know what you're talking about there.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I want to believe that's true. But usually when she appears in comics other than her own title (which can't sell), she is inferior, third-tier, quickly defeated in combat if she fights, and is only valuable because of her burglary skills and information.


Catwoman broke Bane's back in Batman Rebirth #13.  That's pretty bad-ass.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Catwoman broke Bane's back in Batman Rebirth #13.  That's pretty bad-ass.


Yup it was! And shoot, let's not forget, Bane broke Batman's back so if he can get hurt, with all his training and strength, it wouldn't surprise me that Cat would lose a couple of fights here and there.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Catwoman broke Bane's back in Batman Rebirth #13.  That's pretty bad-ass.


Thankfully Tom King sees something in Selina that few other DC creators do. I'm glad she broke Bane's back. I loved it. It wasn't the most convincing backbreaker move being a simple whip-assisted jumpkick, but hey, as long as it got the job done. 
But then when Batgirl quickly put Selina on her butt with a sweep kick in "BOP", and Catwoman didn't even get a lick in, I was ashamed. Really? Catwoman gets taken down by Batgirl? That easily? Please....

----------


## Caivu

> But then when Batgirl quickly put Selina on her butt with a sweep kick in "BOP", and Catwoman didn't even get a lick in, I was ashamed. Really? Catwoman gets taken down by Batgirl? That easily? Please....


They fought prior to this, in issue #49 of Selina's last series, and she described Babs as being "damned good". So... I'm just not seeing the problem. It was hardly a curbstomp, or even a victory, really.

----------


## Old Man Ollie 1962



----------


## WontonGirl

> Thankfully Tom King sees something in Selina that few other DC creators do. I'm glad she broke Bane's back. I loved it. It wasn't the most convincing backbreaker move being a simple whip-assisted jumpkick, but hey, as long as it got the job done. 
> But then when Batgirl quickly put Selina on her butt with a sweep kick in "BOP", and Catwoman didn't even get a lick in, I was ashamed. Really? Catwoman gets taken down by Batgirl? That easily? Please....


Maybe I have to read it again but I thought Catwoman got the upper hand in the fight with Batgirl. 

Again, Selina wins most of her fights. If you want to see her fighting and winning fights at the level that she was doing in the 90's and early 00's, then they would have to give her a title again. I mean, unless they make her a real partner like she was in a few issues in the 80's, we are not going to see Selina fighting to that extreme in the MAIN Batman title. 

The reason why we KNOW Nightwing and Catwoman are badass is because they had their own title for years and was able to showcase that. With King including Catwoman more in the main book, we will see her fighting skills more. But so far, even in King's book, we really have seen the classic Gotham rogues in real time yet. I mean, we haven't seen Batman mix it up with The Penguin's goons or stop Riddler or Poison Ivy in real time Gotham yet. 

The reason why we do see Cat as much as we do is because King likes her and according to him, if he really had his way, we would see her a lot more.

----------


## CryNotWolf

Tarr just posted this on her instagram. Looks like part of a cover.

babsdraws.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> Tarr just posted this on her instagram. Looks like part of a cover.
> 
> babsdraws.jpg


Ugh! I hope not. I don't like that for a cover.

----------


## Frontier

> Tarr just posted this on her instagram. Looks like part of a cover.
> 
> babsdraws.jpg


Are we finally seeing the return of the Gotham City Sirens  :Wink: ?

Tarr draws a pretty good Catwoman and Ivy (and of course Ivy would be in pigtails)  :Smile: .

And I guess they all kissed Batman there...

----------


## LimeBright

Well, I mean, DC should start promoting them together, since there will be a Sirens movie.

----------


## klynn

> Well, I mean, DC should start promoting them together, since there will be a Sirens movie.


Or not? http://www.cbr.com/joker-harley-quin...-sirens-rumor/

----------


## Frontier

Looks like there's going to be plenty of Selina in the _Gotham by Gaslight_ animated movie:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Looks like there's going to be plenty of Selina in the _Gotham by Gaslight_ animated movie:


So are they having Selina Kyle play the role that Julie Madison had in the comic? Or are they adding Selina in the movie because I don't remember Selina being in the Gotham by Gaslight comic.

----------


## Miles To Go

Tom is writing Selina's answer now


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08...sal-right-now/

----------


## Huntsman1117

I like the way Selina is voiced, illustrated, and portrayed in this new Gotham by Gaslight! I figured they would portray her as a victimized prostitute. I'm glad they are making her a strong willed investigator and defender of women.

Her appearance in Bane Conquest #4 was pretty good too! I love how Chuck Dixon writes Catwoman. He gives her a great voice and smart, sexy, sassy attitude. The only bad thing is how she is drawn in her costume. She doesn't look pretty at all. However, she looks great outside of her costume. Nolan gets an A+ for giving her a perfect face.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> Tom is writing Selina's answer now
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08...sal-right-now/


I really hope DC doesnt leak the answer like they did the proposal before the issue was released.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Tom is writing Selina's answer now
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08...sal-right-now/


I was under the impression that these stories were already done. Like I was thinking that #31-34 would be ready to go to print by now.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I like the way Selina is voiced, illustrated, and portrayed in this new Gotham by Gaslight! I figured they would portray her as a victimized prostitute. I'm glad they are making her a strong willed investigator and defender of women.
> 
> Her appearance in Bane Conquest #4 was pretty good too! I love how Chuck Dixon writes Catwoman. He gives her a great voice and smart, sexy, sassy attitude. The only bad thing is how she is drawn in her costume. She doesn't look pretty at all. However, she looks great outside of her costume. Nolan gets an A+ for giving her a perfect face.


Chuck Dixon says he loves Catwoman. I wish some of these other "I love Catwoman" writers were writing her during the N52 era  :Frown:  Between Morrison writing the main title and N52, we lost a lot of good years for Catwoman in the main books  :Frown:

----------


## Bukdiah

It's cool having her pretend to be a prostitute as a nod to her Batman Year One origin. I'm liking that they are inserting more characters into Gaslight in general. Selina looks like she's gonna have her fair share of great moments.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It's cool having her pretend to be a prostitute as a nod to her Batman Year One origin. I'm liking that they are inserting more characters into Gaslight in general. Selina looks like she's gonna have her fair share of great moments.


Perhaps DC is waiting to see how people react to Catwoman in the other books to decide whether to launch a Catwoman series.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Perhaps DC is waiting to see how people react to Catwoman in the other books to decide whether to launch a Catwoman series.


I think that her presence in the main Batman book might determine that more than her presence in the other books. In the other books (BoP, Harley, etc), they have different audiences.

I don't think those are the kinds of books that would make people want her to have her own book. She needs to appear in something like Tec or maybe pop up in JLA or shoot, maybe even crossover in The Flash or Superman. EYE think, those kinds of books would have the audience to say "hey, we need a Cat book again".

----------


## WontonGirl

> It's cool having her pretend to be a prostitute as a nod to her Batman Year One origin. I'm liking that they are inserting more characters into Gaslight in general. Selina looks like she's gonna have her fair share of great moments.


Is she pretending to be a prostitute? I thought she was a lounge singer in this movie??

----------


## Frontier

> Is she pretending to be a prostitute? I thought she was a lounge singer in this movie??


She is a lounge singer (or an actress). She's also being proactive in  trying to find the man who's killing the destitute women.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Perhaps DC is waiting to see how people react to Catwoman in the other books to decide whether to launch a Catwoman series.


DC is aware that she was able to hold a solo for over 20 years, so I don't think that's the case. It's pretty clear to me that DC wants her story to mainly advance as a large part of Batman's Rebirth initiative, which is why she is the most heavily recurring deuteragonist in the primary Batman book. Catwoman doesn't sell SO well that she warrants always having a solo, but once they get the character to where they want her to be, I'm sure they'll start fishing around for solo ideas.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Is she pretending to be a prostitute? I thought she was a lounge singer in this movie??


I thought she was a singer as a front, but also did investigation on the streets by assuming a prostitute identity. At least, what I got outta of it, because Jack The Ripper was killing prostitutes at the time? If this is wrong...my god, I have offended many lmao

----------


## WontonGirl

> She is a lounge singer (or an actress). She's also being proactive in  trying to find the man who's killing the destitute women.


Yes I know that she is being proactive. But that doesn't mean she is pretending to be a prostitute to do that.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I thought she was a singer as a front, but also did investigation on the streets by assuming a prostitute identity. At least, what I got outta of it, because Jack The Ripper was killing prostitutes at the time? If this is wrong...my god, I have offended many lmao


Yeah, like I said, I don't think she is pretending to be a prostitute to do that. I mean it's not like Batman is pretending to be a Pimp to get close to the potential victims.

----------


## WontonGirl

> DC is aware that she was able to hold a solo for over 20 years, so I don't think that's the case. It's pretty clear to me that DC wants her story to mainly advance as a large part of Batman's Rebirth initiative, which is why she is the most heavily recurring deuteragonist in the primary Batman book. Catwoman doesn't sell SO well that she warrants always having a solo, but once they get the character to where they want her to be, I'm sure they'll start fishing around for solo ideas.


Exactly! Right now, the biggest solo star is most likely Harley Quinn. And that's fine, it's just her time I guess. 

So I completely agree, once they get Catwoman back up to where they want her to be, then she will definitely most likely get a solo STORY. N52 did a lot of damage to Catwoman, both in and out of her book but really that was on top of the lack of her during Morrison's run as well.

She is such a beloved and popular character, that's probably what has had her be able to take all of this crap they have dished her since the beginning of Morrison's run.

----------


## tbgo

Michelle Pfeiffer's performance is what sold the book, it's what spun-off the solo comic book series. Balent came up with an iconic look, Batman: The Animated Series took off, and the comic continued to benefit from those outside properties flourishing. Now, Catwoman no longer has a big actress or film that would lead people to pick up a comic book and the character's costume is no longer eye-popping and is beyond stale. You can't rest on Batman Returns and Batman: The Animated Series forever, which is what they were doing. Harley is fresh and new, and then when hot new it girl Margot Robbie took on the role, it pushed book sales, costumes, memorabilia through the roof. Comic books are now considered tie-ins when it comes to DC. They are merely marketing tools for the films. They don't bring in big bucks as a rule. I'm sure many of them are written off at a loss. The company looks at the bigger picture: it promotes the franchise, thus the reason for Harley appearing in nearly every title. She sells and will also push the DCEU. We're looking at what, three Harley films now: SS2, GSC, and a Joker/Harley film?!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

With the Gotham TV series now pushing forward as Selina Kyle becoming more Catwoman, including making her a whip expert, that may help push Catwoman's stock a little bit more too.
The Supergirl TV show helped revive the Supergirl comic books, which were dead after getting cancelled at issue #40 while most the other books, even Catwoman, made it to #52.
And Gotham gets an average of 3.3 million viewers, so if even a couple percent of the viewers who like Selina Kyle buy comic books, that would be a huge seller.

----------


## Confuzzled

> With the Gotham TV series now pushing forward as Selina Kyle becoming more Catwoman, including making her a whip expert, that may help push Catwoman's stock a little bit more too.
> The Supergirl TV show helped revive the Supergirl comic books, which were dead after getting cancelled at issue #40 while most the other books, even Catwoman, made it to #52.
> And Gotham gets an average of 3.3 million viewers, so if even a couple percent of the viewers who like Selina Kyle buy comic books, that would be a huge seller.


Extending tbgo's point, an argument can be made that Anne Hathaway helped keep the New 52 title afloat. But since her take on the character didn't make as huge a splash as Pfeiffer's and since the New 52 book had... well, some pretty divisive runs, the cat was almost out of her nine lives by the end.

I don't know how much a tv show can help as opposed to a cinematic blockbuster. Supergirl is the lead of her own show, Selina is one of the characters on Gotham, and not of the same age or at the same point in her career as in the comics or even properly "Catwoman" yet, even if she's slowly getting there.

----------


## Frontier

> Extending tbgo's point, an argument can be made that Anne Hathaway helped keep the New 52 title afloat. But since her take on the character didn't make as huge a splash as Pfeiffer's and since the New 52 book had... well, some pretty divisive runs, the cat was almost out of her nine lives by the end.


I'd sat Hathaway's Catwoman was pretty popular when she first appeared. 

It would probably have benefited the New 52 to have taken more of an influence from her take by that point.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'd sat Hathaway's Catwoman was pretty popular when she first appeared.


She was well-received for the most part but I don't think she was the centre of a lot of discussion like how Pfeiffer's Catwoman was. I think even Tom Hardy's Bane managed to overshadow her.

Having said that, I agree that the book could have done better if it had taken elements from her portrayal of Selina Kyle.

----------


## WontonGirl

> With the Gotham TV series now pushing forward as Selina Kyle becoming more Catwoman, including making her a whip expert, that may help push Catwoman's stock a little bit more too.
> The Supergirl TV show helped revive the Supergirl comic books, which were dead after getting cancelled at issue #40 while most the other books, even Catwoman, made it to #52.
> And Gotham gets an average of 3.3 million viewers, so if even a couple percent of the viewers who like Selina Kyle buy comic books, that would be a huge seller.


Wrong! A lot of the Gotham fans are NOT comic book fans or are turning to the Comics. They just like Gotham's Selina Kyle and they know Catwoman from Mainstream media. 

Again, a lot of people will consider themselves a Catwoman fan and NEVER picked up a Catwoman comic book. It's the same with Harley, plenty of mainstream and cosplay Harley fans and can tell you all about her but are not comic fans.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Extending tbgo's point, an argument can be made that Anne Hathaway helped keep the New 52 title afloat. But since her take on the character didn't make as huge a splash as Pfeiffer's and since the New 52 book had... well, some pretty divisive runs, the cat was almost out of her nine lives by the end.
> 
> I don't know how much a tv show can help as opposed to a cinematic blockbuster. Supergirl is the lead of her own show, Selina is one of the characters on Gotham, and not of the same age or at the same point in her career as in the comics or even properly "Catwoman" yet, even if she's slowly getting there.


From what I've seen and been around, a lot of the Supergirl fans are fans of the show. But are not necessarily rushing to the store to get her comic books. I see that with teen fans but the fans of the show that are over let's say 25, a lot of them are just fine being a fan of the show. But that's based on what I've seen.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Wrong! A lot of the Gotham fans are NOT comic book fans or are turning to the Comics. They just like Gotham's Selina Kyle and they know Catwoman from Mainstream media. 
> 
> Again, a lot of people will consider themselves a Catwoman fan and NEVER picked up a Catwoman comic book. It's the same with Harley, plenty of mainstream and cosplay Harley fans and can tell you all about her but are not comic fans.


I never said a lot. I said if even, say, 2% of the 3.3 million people that watch Gotham and like Selina Kyle and want to find a comic book about her, that is 66 thousand potential sales.
That's more books than Detective Comics.  You can't tell me that no one that watches Gotham buys comic books. Even 1% is 33 thousand, about the amount Green Lanterns sells.
For viewers, 1% or 2% is small, obviously not a lot. For comic books sales that is huge.

----------


## Frontier

More often then not live-action prominence does not translate into comic sales.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> More often then not live-action prominence does not translate into comic sales.


Except for cases like the Batman TV show in 1966, which gave a huge boost to the sales of the Batman comic books.  The Batman 1989 movie which gave a huge boost to the sales of the Batman comic books. 
Batman Returns which gave a huge boost to Catwoman's popularity and her own solo book.  With the exception of Superman: The Movie and Superman 2 and most things Batman, most the other DC based movies 
have been flops or performed mediocre at best.   Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, Superman Returns movies probably didn't do much for the sales of their books.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Except for cases like the Batman TV show in 1966, which gave a huge boost to the sales of the Batman comic books.  The Batman 1989 movie which gave a huge boost to the sales of the Batman comic books. 
> Batman Returns which gave a huge boost to Catwoman's popularity and her own solo book.  With the exception of Superman: The Movie and Superman 2 and most things Batman, most the other DC based movies 
> have been flops or performed mediocre at best.   Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, Superman Returns movies probably didn't do much for the sales of their books.


All of these examples are from before the implosion of the comics industry in the 90's though. Nothing after that gave a noticeable boost to the comics unless the comics themselves were taken in a refreshing new direction like Morrison's _New X-Men_ and Bendis's _Ultimate Spider-Man_. Even the MCU leads don't enjoy strong comic sales.

----------


## WontonGirl

> More often then not live-action prominence does not translate into comic sales.


Thank you Frontier! MOST of the Gotham fans are NOT going to the comic books. Not that many of the "Gotham" fans

----------


## WontonGirl

> Except for cases like the Batman TV show in 1966, which gave a huge boost to the sales of the Batman comic books.  The Batman 1989 movie which gave a huge boost to the sales of the Batman comic books. 
> Batman Returns which gave a huge boost to Catwoman's popularity and her own solo book.  With the exception of Superman: The Movie and Superman 2 and most things Batman, most the other DC based movies 
> have been flops or performed mediocre at best.   Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, Superman Returns movies probably didn't do much for the sales of their books.


Did the Batman books get a boost after The Dark Knight? 

That was a totally different crowd back then. And comic books were still *highly accessible* to the MAINSTREAM or casual fan. That's the difference.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> All of these examples are from before the implosion of the comics industry in the 90's though. Nothing after that gave a noticeable boost to the comics unless the comics themselves were taken in a refreshing new direction like Morrison's _New X-Men_ and Bendis's _Ultimate Spider-Man_. Even the MCU leads don't enjoy strong comic sales.


During the 90's digital comics were either non existant or not as popular, and if you wanted to read a comic book you had to buy a comic book. Today digital comics are readily available and more accessible, including pirated ones which you can get basically the day after a comic book is released. Hence why it's the main reason comic book sales have dropped. I think once fans have read and are happy with free digital copies, fans are happy to go buy a hard copu but with badly written ones like Catwoman 52, fans didn't bother buying hard copies.

----------


## WontonGirl

> During the 90's digital comics were either non existant or not as popular, and if you wanted to read a comic book you had to buy a comic book. Today digital comics are readily available and more accessible, including pirated ones which you can get basically the day after a comic book is released. Hence why it's the main reason comic book sales have dropped. I think once fans have read and are happy with free digital copies, fans are happy to go buy a hard copu but with badly written ones like Catwoman 52, fans didn't bother buying hard copies.


Exactly! Or not even just pirated copies but just websites that have all the digital copies available the day of release. 

But people still love and know Catwoman. She is part of pop culture in a way that even Harley hasn't penetrated yet. You can name drop "Catwoman" just about anywhere and people know who she is. That's saying something.

----------


## MzTropiqWonder

> Exactly! Or not even just pirated copies but just websites that have all the digital copies available the day of release. 
> 
> But people still love and know Catwoman. She is part of pop culture in a way that even Harley hasn't penetrated yet. You can name drop "Catwoman" just about anywhere and people know who she is. That's saying something.


Yes people do love Catwoman, and what hurts her more I believe is the inconsistency in characterisation by different writers. E.g In Hush her portrayal was strong, independent and someone who is insightful. Then you get her portrayals in JLA 52 and Catwoman 52 as someone pinning away for Batman who didn't want anything to do with her. She throws herself at him numerous of times and even throws herself at Steve Trevor. They seemed so adement in making her look more like a slut rather than a femme fatal, a femme fatale is a woman who calculatingly uses her sexuality for her own gain, not a woman who throws herself cheaply at a whim. 
Also, characters like Harley or even Ivy have had a past that can be sold to all ages - from children to adults where Catwoman doesn't. Her dominatrix/prostitute past does not help her at all and it is time DC addressed this. It was never part of her original back story, and it be smarter for DC to use a universal back story one that could be told to all ages (not animal activist e.g in the animated Batman series and dominatrix in the comics). It's confusing and inconsistant.

----------


## Caivu

Hmmm.

Screenshot_20170831-142546.jpg

----------


## TheCape

Oh, the ambiguity  :Smile:

----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm guessing based on solicitations up through November, Catwoman is going to say "Yes". Batman then travels through the desert in order to become a better hero, which means he's probably going to face his "demons", Ra's al Ghul, Talia al Ghul, and the League of Shadows. So, maybe Selina's answer is contingent on Bruce severing any ties he has with Ra's & Talia. And then he'll have to deal with Damien...

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I'm guessing based on solicitations up through November, Catwoman is going to say "Yes". Batman then travels through the desert in order to become a better hero, which means he's probably going to face his "demons", Ra's al Ghul, Talia al Ghul, and the League of Shadows. So, maybe Selina's answer is contingent on Bruce severing any ties he has with Ra's & Talia. And then he'll have to deal with Damien...


Or she says "no" and in his depression goes on a soul-searching mission of sorts. Or maybe her answer is contingent on whether or not he succeeds in this new mission.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Or she says "no" and in his depression goes on a soul-searching mission of sorts. Or maybe her answer is contingent on whether or not he succeeds in this new mission.


Maybe finding Holly and getting her somewhere safe? I dunno...

----------


## WontonGirl

> Hmmm.
> 
> Screenshot_20170831-142546.jpg


Don't fall for that, LOLOL!  :Embarrassment: 

The art is beautiful though. I seem to like this in black and white a lot as well. Perhaps they release a "black and white" version of WJR?

Edited to add: I love when artist remember that Bruce has chest hair, LOL! We need more shirtless Bruce (not Batman)  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Katana500

> Maybe finding Holly and getting her somewhere safe? I dunno...


That seems like a good shout WontonGirl. I could see thst totally happening

----------


## pansy

> Hmmm.
> 
> Screenshot_20170831-142546.jpg


Hands A Beautiful Composition.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Janin has been drawing a HOT & SEXY half naked Bruce Wayne! Dick Grayson may be famous for having the best male butt in comics, but Bruce's chest is FIRE.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Janin has been drawing a HOT & SEXY half naked Bruce Wayne! Dick Grayson may be famous for having the best male butt in comics, but Bruce's chest is FIRE.


Bruce is massive and hot. IF she doesn't want him, I will take him! 

Selina looks tiny compared to his massive presence, LOL! I bet she feels snug as a rug when she is in his arms in the bed  :Wink:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Janin has been drawing a HOT & SEXY half naked Bruce Wayne! Dick Grayson may be famous for having the best male butt in comics, but Bruce's chest is FIRE.


Depending on the artist, Spidey's butt is not so bad either, LOL!

----------


## pansy

> Bruce is massive and hot. IF she doesn't want him, I will take him! 
> 
> Selina looks tiny compared to his massive presence, LOL! I bet she feels snug as a rug when she is in his arms in the bed


https://nationarticulation.files.wor.../photo-4-7.pnglil gotham was pure gold.

----------


## Starrius

> They fought prior to this, in issue #49 of Selina's last series, and she described Babs as being "damned good". So... I'm just not seeing the problem. It was hardly a curbstomp, or even a victory, really.


I agree.

I don't see what the gripe is about.
They barely fought and they ended up working together. 
It seems like she is joining the Birds of Prey.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I agree.
> 
> I don't see what the gripe is about.
> They barely fought and they ended up working together. 
> It seems like she is joining the Birds of Prey.


Yeah it does. At least for now.

----------


## CryNotWolf

Loved her in today's Bane issue. Funny, mischievous, and totally shameless. Pretty great book so far.

BC52.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> Loved her in today's Bane issue. Funny, mischievous, and totally shameless. Pretty great book so far.
> 
> BC52.jpg


Yes, yes. I love flirty and mischievous Catwoman when she is with other Rogues. She can always get herself out of a sticky situation  :Smile:

----------


## NaughtyJuri

So far been loving Catwoman/ batman together in the rooftop series they make a awesome team <3 since the Animated series to comic's & injustice games they both love each other & one of my favorite couples besides others  in DC universe <3

----------


## Sannom

What is the rooftop series?

----------


## WontonGirl

> What is the rooftop series?


The Rooftop Series refers to Issues #14 and #15 in Batman Rebirth.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Just received "Catwoman by Jim Balent, book one". Artwork & colors look good on fresh, glossy paper!

----------


## DanseMacabre

Seems Selina is going to be in the next 3 part arc--art by Joëlle Jones and Jordie Bellaire

Catwoman 1.jpg

----------


## Punisher007

I wonder if they're holding off giving us her answer until _Metal_ and the upcoming Tim Drake arc are finished?

----------


## WontonGirl

> I wonder if they're holding off giving us her answer until _Metal_ and the upcoming Tim Drake arc are finished?


I was wondering about that too. I mean, there is no mention of her in any of the December solicitations. I guess she says NO and that breaks Bats heart and sets him off on a weird path  :Frown:

----------


## sakuyamons

> I was wondering about that too. I mean, there is no mention of her in any of the December solicitations. I guess she says NO and that breaks Bats heart and sets him off on a weird path


I would cry if that happened  :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

> Seems Selina is going to be in the next 3 part arc--art by Joëlle Jones and Jordie Bellaire
> 
> Catwoman 1.jpg


Ooh! Joelle Jones Catwoman  :Big Grin: .

----------


## CryNotWolf

I'm really excited for Marini's _Dark Prince Charming_. Looks like Selina's going to play a big part and she has a kickass costume to boot. Not to mention the guy's art is beautiful.

selmar.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> I'm really excited for Marini's _Dark Prince Charming_. Looks like Selina's going to play a big part and she has a kickass costume to boot. Not to mention the guy's art is beautiful.
> 
> selmar.jpg


She makes a pretty cool entrance in the preview  :Smile: .

----------


## klynn

OK, here's my prediction for the end:  We find out that Selina climbed back up the building and watched what transpires between Bruce, Joker & Riddler.  She's known his secret all along but loves him anyway.  I think she'll say yes....for now at least.

----------


## WontonGirl

> OK, here's my prediction for the end:  We find out that Selina climbed back up the building and watched what transpires between Bruce, Joker & Riddler.  She's known his secret all along but loves him anyway.  I think she'll say yes....for now at least.


That would be a cool ass twist. Hopefully it's not something that he did that somehow betrayed Selina in the past.

----------


## WontonGirl

I thought Catwoman looked fantastic in Batman #31 and Selina looked very pretty too. I was loving the Purple suit, long hair and crazy ass acrobatics!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

DKL8OLvW4AUM8Vs.jpg  I'll just leave this one here  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

> DKL8OLvW4AUM8Vs.jpg  I'll just leave this one here


So many ways to take this  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> DKL8OLvW4AUM8Vs.jpg  I'll just leave this one here


LOL, and she meant what she said too. Don't apologize for the positions YOU PUT ME in  :Wink:

----------


## CryNotWolf

> DKL8OLvW4AUM8Vs.jpg  I'll just leave this one here


I can't help but find it bizarre for them to call each other "Bat" and "Cat" in the privacy of a bedroom, completely out of costume. I don't know if I'll ever be acclimated to it.

----------


## Frontier

> I can't help but find it bizarre for them to call each other "Bat" and "Cat" in the privacy of a bedroom, completely out of costume. I don't know if I'll ever be acclimated to it.


I used to think always calling her Selina was Bruce's thing  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> I can't help but find it bizarre for them to call each other "Bat" and "Cat" in the privacy of a bedroom, completely out of costume. I don't know if I'll ever be acclimated to it.


Well he called her Selina when it counted most, which was the proposal. 

It's just nicknames, the names probably roll off their tongues. Besides, they have called each other by their real names when they were IN costume. Why not the reverse?

----------


## sakuyamons

The war of jokes and riddles make me miss the purple catwoman costume  :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

> The war of jokes and riddles make me miss the purple catwoman costume


Same here. Janin draws it so well  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Punisher007

> DKL8OLvW4AUM8Vs.jpg  I'll just leave this one here


Yeah, there's no way that she didn't know EXACTLY what she was saying/implying there.  I mean look at her face, it's written all over it.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

So.

5 days.

Get your bets in now!  :Smile: 

(I'm going for "Yes.")

----------


## Assam

> Get your bets in now!


She's going to say "Yes" go in for the kiss, and that slit his throat killing him. She'll laugh and it'll be revealed that this wasn't Selina, and he never actually proposed to her, "Because it was actually ME, Dio!" 

I honestly don't care and would be much more excited about King fixing his BS and either redeeming Holly or undoing her actions than a marriage that, even if it does happen, won't last.

----------


## Frontier

> So.
> 
> 5 days.
> 
> Get your bets in now! 
> 
> (I'm going for "Yes.")


I feel like even if it's a yes or no, there's going to be some kind of catch to it. 



> She's going to say "Yes" go in for the kiss, and that slit his throat killing him. She'll laugh and it'll be revealed that this wasn't Selina, and he never actually proposed to her, "Because it was actually ME, Dio!" 
> 
> I honestly don't care and would be much more excited about King fixing his BS and either redeeming Holly or undoing her actions than a marriage that, even if it does happen, won't last.


I thought you were going for a Holly reveal, showing she'd got one over on Bruce once again  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Now I'm really wanting to see Selina troll Dio...

----------


## Katana500

> So.
> 
> 5 days.
> 
> Get your bets in now! 
> 
> (I'm going for "Yes.")


I'm gonna be optimistic and say Yes!  :Smile:

----------


## reni344

I am going to be positive and say yes based on various solicitations in other books

----------


## sakuyamons

> So.
> 
> 5 days.
> 
> Get your bets in now! 
> 
> (I'm going for "Yes.")


Yes, because Im gonna be really angry if not!

----------


## WontonGirl

> I am going to be positive and say yes based on various solicitations in other books


What other books??? Other than BoP, what other books? 

So far, she hasn't popped up in Metal or a Metal Tie-In. But that could be because she doesn't have a book, now that I think about it. All the tie-ins got a book. 

She's not in Tec or has been mentioned in Tec. Technically it was "Selina" in All-Star. Helping Bruce out of course, but still. Of course, no JL and now, not even JLA. No hints or pictures of her (except that one pic Joelle posted) for the next arc. 

So I mean, I don't know. I needed or still need some more hints as to what will happen  :Frown:

----------


## WontonGirl

According to Tom King on Twitter, he said that #32 will have a yes or no answer. No clones, quests or fake-outs. 

So I don't know. I'm guessing he changed his mind and had Selina say NO. And because they still love each other, she still cares for him, hence why she is trying to help him in the BoP issue where everybody is trying to help the men. 

She most likely will give him the "you need to find yourself or find out the real reason why you asked me to marry you". And then hence, he gets going on his quest. For whatever. 

Somebody got to him. Probably Synder, LOL!

----------


## millernumber1

So far, that is - 

Yes: 4

No: 1

Don't Care: 1

Something Tricky: 1

----------


## reni344

There is a Super Sons book that comes out in November or December about Damian facing a big change based on a decision made by Batman. That gives me a little hope that she is going to say yes.

----------


## Jovos2099

I sincerely hope she says yes and then we can finally  get a version of Helena Wayne in the main dc universe so even if the marriage doesn't last something or rather someone permeant will come of this.

----------


## Huntsman1117

It would be very frustrating if she simply said, "No" or "I can't", even if she realizes Bruce isn't the man she thought he is. We've waited way to long for this and we have seen them deny their smaller proposals to each other too many times. All this for another denial? That would be stupid.

Catwoman likely is hidden from future projects right now because they are trying to keep tight-lipped. 

If she does say "Yes", it isn't going to be a walk in the park. Hell, Catwoman could even get kidnapped by someone like the League of Assassins, forcing Bats to go on a journey to rescue her. Whatever happens, its not going to be easy because Dan Didio said that heroes should never be happy in relationships and that there will be no happy relationships in the DCU. Still, I'm very excited and can't wait to see what happens!

----------


## Huntsman1117

PLUS, Tom King has written a Batman Annual to come out soon that takes us back to when Bat & Cat first met and started talking interest in each other. Why make that book if Catwoman turns Batman down after he opened himself up completely to her?

----------


## godisawesome

I hope it's "yes," since that would be new and entertaining, and I don't really have any interest in a "no" as an excuse for yet more introspection.

----------


## Frontier

> I hope it's "yes," since that would be new and entertaining, and I don't really have any interest in a "no" as an excuse for yet more introspection.


Well, we're probably going to be getting a lot of introspection either way, since it's kind of the point of this plot development in the first place.

----------


## godisawesome

I know. I'll just have more invested if there's a new status quo being teased _for_ the introspection in comparison to just going for introspection without a change.

----------


## Frontier

> I know. I'll just have more invested if there's a new status quo being teased _for_ the introspection in comparison to just going for introspection without a change.


I mean, I'll be fine with either answer if it feels true to the characters and their relationship.

It's why I think it could go either way.

----------


## CryNotWolf

She may not necessarily say "no", but she won't say "yes" either. I don't buy this build-up to a "yes", certainly not given the writer.

----------


## WontonGirl

> PLUS, Tom King has written a Batman Annual to come out soon that takes us back to when Bat & Cat first met and started talking interest in each other. Why make that book if Catwoman turns Batman down after he opened himself up completely to her?


Well I mean Nightwing and Barbs just kissed and had an issue that took us back down memory lane with them. Does that mean that DC is planning on getting them back together?

----------


## WontonGirl

Well he said on Twitter it's either Yes or No. So who knows? Maybe he is trying to fake off all of us. 

I mean he was pretty tight lipped about the fact that he was doing upcoming issues about Bats/Supes.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I mean, I'll be fine with either answer if it feels true to the characters and their relationship.
> 
> It's why I think it could go either way.


I'm with you. I think that if we got issues upon issues later where Bats and Cats where something happens and Bats and Cats almost lose each other, then she says YES, that would be good too. Sometimes people say Yes the second time around. 

Look at Prince William and Princess Kate. They broke up and were even dating other people. But they got back together later and then got married. 

Same on The Flash. Barry asked Iris to marry him out of fear. Then after a bit, she gave him back the ring. They all went through some drama and then later on, he asked her to marry him again and THIS TIME she accepted completely and it felt real. 

Bruce and Selina, those two, they will be together either way.

----------


## Punisher007

For this story to have any real meaning, she should say yes.  Otherwise, what's the point?  It'd just be back to business as usual, and dragging it out for so long would be annoying to say the least.

While I don't expect it to be a permanent thing, Bruce and Selina getting to be married in the main continuity for at least awhile opens up more potentially fun and interesting stories with them.  And not only them, but with the rest of the Batfamily (and even some of the other rogues) as well.

----------


## Miles To Go

USAToday's article on the outcome of this week's issue, plus an interview with Tom King


https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...ers/721024001/

----------


## Rac7d*

Its so werid becasue I dont belive in permanent its a comic book series, but then again why not. 

Here one, but i  gues thats not cannon anymore



I hope she and damian can find some common ground, if not the marrige wont work
 The son and the step mother

----------


## Jovos2099

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...ajor-spoilers/ major spoilers await do not read if you want to wait to hear catwomans answer in the comic again WARNING DO NOT READ if you want to wait read the comic to learn  Salinas answer.

----------


## WontonGirl

So she kissed Nightwing, big whoop! I mean, she didn't sleep with him. 

But I do hope her and Damian finds common ground too. I would love to see a scene with Damian going on some kind of patrol with Catwoman, Harley and Ivy, LOL! Damian thinking his is keeping an eye on her while she is keeping an eye on him (because Bruce asked her too)

----------


## TheCape

I'm just interested in Selina and Damian having any kind of interaction, considering that she is Bruce "True Love", you would think that somebody would have picth something already.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm just interested in Selina and Damian having any kind of interaction, considering that she is Bruce "True Love", you would think that somebody would have picth something already.


It's coming. I think that it just takes that kind of writer to go for it and do it. 

I mean Morrison's focus wasn't really on Selina being in Bruce's life. Hence why you didn't see it in his run. And he wouldn't seem like a good fit to guess star in the Catwoman books like the other Robins have. Then of course, Scott took Damian pretty much out the game those were years lost as well. 

But King is a smart writer. Now that a big piece of his master plan has been put out there, I guarantee will start to see more interaction between Selina and Damian.

----------


## WontonGirl

What did you all think of Selina in the last issue of Batman? Good? Bad? 

Did you like her speech? Did you like the fact that in those moments, they seemed completely different than they have ever been with one another? 

I personally loved seeing how raw she was with her own emotions. I loved that they had tears falling down her cheeks vs her "crying". And for me, she felt strong and capable at the same time, she didn't feel like she was disappearing in his sorrow or just his presence. Like I felt like she was her own woman and a compliment to him, not a weaker person. 

And I loved how Catwoman looked in Issue #31!

----------


## Fergus

> It's coming. I think that it just takes that kind of writer to go for it and do it. 
> 
> I mean Morrison's focus wasn't really on Selina being in Bruce's life. Hence why you didn't see it in his run. And he wouldn't seem like a good fit to guess star in the Catwoman books like the other Robins have. Then of course, Scott took Damian pretty much out the game those were years lost as well. 
> 
> But King is a smart writer. Now that a big piece of his master plan has been put out there, I guarantee will start to see more interaction between Selina and Damian.


In fairness Morrison's run had DickBats and Damian he barely wrote Damian and Bruce remember. Your thinking Tomasi.
I would like to see Damian and Selina interact however King doesn't have a handle on Damian so I fear it wouldn't the gold we see in his banter.

----------


## WontonGirl

> In fairness Morrison's run had DickBats and Damian he barely wrote Damian and Bruce remember. Your thinking Tomasi


Yeah I know that he had DickBats and Damian but again, Morrison's focus wasn't really Selina or Catwoman.

----------


## Fergus

> Yeah I know that he had DickBats and Damian but again, Morrison's focus wasn't really Selina or Catwoman.


Morrison's run had a different focus. There wasn't any romance or anything of the sort so No one expected to see Catwoman it was about the Bat mythos.

----------


## Fergus

> Its so werid becasue I dont belive in permanent its a comic book series, but then again why not. 
> 
> Here one, but i  gues thats not cannon anymore
> 
> 
> 
> I hope she and damian can find some common ground, if not the marrige wont work
>  The son and the step mother


Where's the 1st set of scans from?

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Where's the 1st set of scans from?


Dixon's Nightwing. Issue 52.

I personally don't care for the issue. It made Selina come off as a very pathetic person.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Dixon's Nightwing. Issue 52.
> 
> I personally don't care for the issue. It made Selina come off as a very pathetic person.


Yeah it did. I thought I was the only one that thought that.

----------


## Godlike13

Her kissing Nightwing was all about Batman. Not her finest moment, but it played out as it should. 

Anyway yes, Im very interested in see how Damian reacts to this, and her and his relationship going forward. There is a lot of potential fun that can now be had between them and I really hope DC plays with it. With the other Robins we saw Dick's take on them in Hush, and quite frankly I don’t think his opinion should change much now, and the others what can they really say.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

I wonder who would be her maid of honor...

----------


## Godlike13

> I wonder who would be her maid of honor...


Oh crap, thats a good point. Holly cut Batman's throat, and Ivy and Harley cant very well be on the guest list. Though maybe the wedding does look something like this, 



LoL, Tim looks like such a little creep.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

It would certainly lead up to one heck of a bachelorette party...

----------


## Caivu

> I wonder who would be her maid of honor...


Barbara, maybe?

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> I wonder who would be her maid of honor...


Has her sister Maggie been reintroduced yet?

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I wonder who would be her maid of honor...


It'll be Holly. Holly is Selina's best friend, nobody else even comes close.

I know Bruce desperately wants to see Selina walk down that aisle, so he'll let Holly attend the wedding whether he likes it or not.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Has her sister Maggie been reintroduced yet?


Nope. Nor Slam.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> It'll be Holly. Holly is Selina's best friend, nobody else even comes close.
> 
> I know Bruce desperately wants to see Selina walk down that aisle, so he'll let Holly attend the wedding whether he likes it or not.


Tom King said in an interview for the next arc, "If you’ve been following the Batman mythos, Catwoman’s wanted for 237 murders, and she’s covering for her best friend Holly Robinson, who actually did the murders. Holly Robinson is now on the run, so now we’re going to try and find her and try to sort the whole thing out." 

Maybe she will?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Tom King said in an interview for the next arc, "If you’ve been following the Batman mythos, Catwoman’s wanted for 237 murders, and she’s covering for her best friend Holly Robinson, who actually did the murders. Holly Robinson is now on the run, so now we’re going to try and find her and try to sort the whole thing out." 
> 
> Maybe she will?


Or maybe he wants her to go to jail so his fiancée can be cleared of the murders. Bruce is not trying to save Holly, he's trying to save his girl.

----------


## TheCape

And because of that, Selina would abandon Bruce for Holy  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Or maybe he wants her to go to jail so his fiancée can be cleared of the murders. Bruce is not trying to save Holly, he's trying to save his girl.


I've been told that BatJerk isn't present in King's run. Hopefully you're wrong and this remains true.

----------


## WontonGirl

I mean, we have to see how it plays out. Holly killed 237 people. We are going to have to see how they handle it. They meaning Bruce and Selina. 

And him wanting her to go to jail. How is that being a jerk? If she doesn't turn herself in or confess to the crimes, then Selina will still be wanted for the murders. I'm sure he doesn't want that. Selina's his girl. He's going to be looking out for her.

----------


## Assam

> And him wanting her to go to jail. How is that being a jerk? If she doesn't turn herself in or confess to the crimes, then Selina will still be wanted for the murders. I'm sure he doesn't want that. Selina's his girl. He's going to be looking out for her.


And I don't want to him throwing Holly under the bus to accomplish that. Now you may say, "How is that throwing her under the bus? She DID kill those people?" but I say, "KING is the one who already threw Holly under the bus for Selina's sake, I don't want to see Batman doing it too."

I honestly shouldn't be surprised he f**ked up Holly, considering the crap he did with Victor in his Vision book.

----------


## WontonGirl

> And I don't want to him throwing Holly under the bus to accomplish that. Now you may say, "How is that throwing her under the bus? She DID kill those people?" but I say, "KING is the one who already threw Holly under the bus for Selina's sake, I don't want to see Batman doing it too."
> 
> I honestly shouldn't be surprised he f**ked up Holly, considering the crap he did with Victor in his Vision book.


So what do you want Batman to do? All three of them figure out a way to clear Selina's name? What is he going to do? Have Holly confess on video and hide her away for good? 

I mean they did it on The Flash (TV show) with Dr. Harrison Wells. Maybe they can make it where she confesses, then he gives her a ton of money and Holly is gone. Changes her hair and identity, etc. And Selina is good with it. I mean something has to work out, I don't think King is only going to have Bruce and Selina engaged for 1 issue. Unless it's something Selina holds against him. 

We shall find out in 2 weeks.

----------


## Assam

> So what do you want Batman to do? All three of them figure out a way to clear Selina's name? What is he going to do? Have Holly confess on video and hide her away for good? 
> 
> I mean they did it on The Flash (TV show) with Dr. Harrison Wells. Maybe they can make it where she confesses, then he gives her a ton of money and Holly is gone. Changes her hair and identity, etc. And Selina is good with it. I mean something has to work out, I don't think King is only going to have Bruce and Selina engaged for 1 issue. Unless it's something Selina holds against him. 
> .


Hate it. 

And I know I'm going to hate whatever he comes up with most likely. This was an awful move, and even though this is a superhero comic, where ANYTHING can be undone, I know he's not going to take advantage of that.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Hate it. 
> 
> And I know I'm going to hate whatever he comes up with most likely. This was an awful move, and even though this is a superhero comic, where ANYTHING can be undone, I know he's not going to take advantage of that.


Again, how would he do it? How would he undo this? How would he take advantage of it? 

What do you suggest?

----------


## Tuck

> Hate it. 
> 
> And I know I'm going to hate whatever he comes up with most likely. This was an awful move, and even though this is a superhero comic, where ANYTHING can be undone, I know he's not going to take advantage of that.


Amanda Waller would probably be interested in recruiting her.   :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> Again, how would he do it? How would he undo this? How would he take advantage of it? 
> 
> What do you suggest?


Mind control, robot duplicate, Dr. Bloody Manhattan, I honestly don't care. In this world, there are SO many outs for this kind of thing. Maybe he could come up with something more clever or original, but when I've already been served a s**t sandwich, I'm not really gonna care if I get off-brand soda to wash it down as opposed to something better.

----------


## Godlike13

Better question, why undo it?

----------


## CryNotWolf

I don't think Assam's worries about Holly are unwarranted, but I personally believe it's worth waiting and seeing what King has in store for her before we get out the noose. Ever since Brubaker ended his Catwoman run over 10 years ago, Holly has been a criminally underused character and perhaps King can change that. We'll see.

----------


## Miles To Go

According to King, Selina will be crossing swords in the desert with Talia in "Rules of Engagement" and the annual (with Lee Weeks) will deal with Bruce and Selina's "first and last kiss"

*Source*

----------


## DanseMacabre

King said his run would focus on the relationship between Catwoman and Batman (Selina will also be swordfighting Talia)

Selina#3.jpg


Selina#4.jpg

----------


## DragonPiece

> King said his run would focus on the relationship between Catwoman and Batman *(Selina will also be swordfighting Talia)*
> 
> Selina#3.jpg
> 
> 
> Selina#4.jpg


well, that will certainly be interesting lol, maybe after this she will feel more compelled to care for Damian

----------


## Frontier

> According to King, Selina will be crossing swords in the desert with Talia in "Rules of Engagement" and the annual (with Lee Weeks) will deal with Bruce and Selina's "first and last kiss"
> 
> *Source*


Curious about that "first and last kiss" thing...one, because it'll be interesting to see if there's a specific moment from continuity that he references for their first kiss, and two because "last" implies some kind of flash-forward. 

And there was no way this engagement was going to fly without some kind of confrontation with Talia  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> King said his run would focus on the relationship between Catwoman and Batman (Selina will also be swordfighting Talia)
> 
> Selina#3.jpg
> 
> 
> Selina#4.jpg


I'm getting a heavy Indiana Jones vibe from these ones (which is great because I love Indiana Jones). Selina looks damn cute too.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm very happy with what Tom King has done with Catwoman and I'm very excited about what could potentially happen next! No complaints from me, for once (HAHA).

----------


## WontonGirl

> King said his run would focus on the relationship between Catwoman and Batman (Selina will also be swordfighting Talia)
> 
> Selina#3.jpg
> 
> 
> Selina#4.jpg


I hope it's because TAG attacked her first and not over a "man", LOL!

----------


## WontonGirl

> Curious about that "first and last kiss" thing...one, because it'll be interesting to see if there's a specific moment from continuity that he references for their first kiss, and two because "last" implies some kind of flash-forward. 
> 
> And there was no way this engagement was going to fly without some kind of confrontation with Talia .


Well remember the Annual is set in the past. So I don't think they mean their actual *last kiss*. I mean, they kissed in Rebirth.

----------


## SelinaK12

hello my fellow catwoman fans i have been looking for a forum like this in forever.

----------


## WontonGirl

> hello my fellow catwoman fans i have been looking for a forum like this in forever.


Hi and welcome! CBR is very, very active  :Smile:

----------


## SelinaK12

good to know

----------


## SelinaK12

Selina is going to be in the birds of prey #15 tommorrow

----------


## WontonGirl

> Selina is going to be in the birds of prey #15 tommorrow


Yes she is and there will be a thread to discuss that as well!

----------


## SelinaK12

selina is going to be in a batman anime in 2018. As well as batman gotham by gaslight in 2018

----------


## Godlike13

Anime Catwoman is gonna be something to see  :Embarrassment:

----------


## SelinaK12

Yeah i can't wait

----------


## WontonGirl

> selina is going to be in a batman anime in 2018. As well as batman gotham by gaslight in 2018


Oh yes! We are all up to speed, LOL! And there are Selina Kyle fans here too!

----------


## SelinaK12

did you guys like selina in the birds of prey #15

----------


## CPSparkles

@ Wontongirl this pic of Selina is from the same artist

----------


## Jovos2099

Does anyone think that there should be a Selina and Bruce  thread like there's a lane and Kent page on the superman forum.

----------


## WontonGirl

> @ Wontongirl this pic of Selina is from the same artist


Hmmm, I don't like this one as much. She looks very young but he did capture those green eyes!

----------


## reni344

DML0kEuW0AAXel6.jpg
https://twitter.com/Marini_Comics/st...66201503866880

I have no idea what Batman Dark Prince Charming is about but if this Selina is in it I am buying :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> Attachment 56274
> https://twitter.com/Marini_Comics/st...66201503866880
> 
> I have no idea what Batman Dark Prince Charming is about but if this Selina is in it I am buying


Ooh! Is this actually from the book? I love it  :Big Grin: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> Attachment 56274
> https://twitter.com/Marini_Comics/st...66201503866880
> 
> I have no idea what Batman Dark Prince Charming is about but if this Selina is in it I am buying


There is actually a "Dark Prince Charming" thread. The book comes out in 2 1/2 weeks!

----------


## Jovos2099

Does anyone think that there should be a Salina and Bruce thread like there is clark and lois thread on the superman forum a thread for all things batcat.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Does anyone think that there should be a Salina and Bruce thread like there is clark and lois thread on the superman forum a thread for all things batcat.


I don't think so. I think there are more Clark and Lois fans in the Superman Forums that are severely active. 

But you know what, if you want one, then start one  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Elisa Gonzales as DCEU Catwoman?

----------


## sakuyamons

> Elisa Gonzales as DCEU Catwoman?


She seems quite young for me...for me Selina and Bruce must have a similar age.

----------


## Frontier

> She seems quite young for me...for me Selina and Bruce must have a similar age.


Well, we don't know how much longer Affleck will be in the role...

----------


## Punisher007

Unless they're going to de-age Bruce somehow, he's still a mid-40's Batman (Aflleck or no Affleck).  I'd prefer that he not have a 20-something year old Selina as his LI, it just feels, off.

Although I wouldn't mind Eiza getting some other role in the DCEU (Zatanna perhaps)?

----------


## Frontier

> Unless they're going to de-age Bruce somehow, he's still a mid-40's Batman (Aflleck or no Affleck).  I'd prefer that he not have a 20-something year old Selina as his LI, it just feels, off.
> 
> Although I wouldn't mind Eiza getting some other role in the DCEU (Zatanna perhaps)?


(Cough)Flashpoint(Cough).

----------


## WontonGirl

Did you guys know that Catwoman is back in Injustice 2, Chapter 28? It sets up the beginning of how Bat and Cat got back on track and makes sense with how close they are in the Injustice 2 video games.

----------


## SelinaK12

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/921451006084440064

----------


## WontonGirl

tumblr_oy58parJQT1r03w74o1_1280.jpg

I really wish that King would had shown us the scene where Catwoman took down the big guard. Most likely she probably ran up his super big legs and cracked his neck or back with her whip, LOL!

----------


## SelinaK12

She was in gotham city garage #7 with nightwing and kara

----------


## MentalManipulator

> She seems quite young for me...for me Selina and Bruce must have a similar age.


Agree completely! But also this girl is stunning but a mediocre actress so pass.

----------


## WontonGirl

I think Morena Baccarin would be a great choice!

----------


## Tuck

> I think Morena Baccarin would be a great choice!


She's already Leslie Thompkins _and_ Talia.   :Big Grin:

----------


## WontonGirl

> She's already Leslie Thompkins _and_ Talia.


Yes but Talia was animated and she's not playing that role anymore. And she can be Catwoman in the DCEU. Leslie is such a minor role, people won't notice it. If Chris Evans and Michael B. Jordan can do it, she can do it too, ha, ha!

----------


## RedBird

> I think Morena Baccarin would be a great choice!


She was the girl from Deadpool right? I couldnt stop seeing her as catwoman when I was watching that film, especially scenes where she was sporting the short hair.

----------


## WontonGirl

> She was the girl from Deadpool right? I couldnt stop seeing her as catwoman when I was watching that film, especially scenes where she was sporting the short hair.


Yes and when she played on the remake of V a few years ago, she had the short hair as well, I think she would be good for the part of a Selina Kyle/tone down Catwoman. That's the only thing, could she do the acrobatics needed for the role.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Does anyone think that there should be a Salina and Bruce thread like there is clark and lois thread on the superman forum a thread for all things batcat.


Good news, there is now a BatCat page.

http://community.comicbookresources....reciation-page

----------


## WontonGirl

> Good news, there is now a BatCat page.
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....reciation-page


She was the one that started it, LOL!

----------


## brucekent12

Thank you for starting the page!

----------


## Caivu

A page from Batman #34, since DC is still sitting on the preview...

IMG_20171031_145918.jpg

----------


## Miles To Go

I wonder what's held the preview up? Spoilers early on?

----------


## WontonGirl

> A page from Batman #34, since DC is still sitting on the preview...
> 
> IMG_20171031_145918.jpg


I'm sorry, in that top pic, Batman looks NICE! Good to just see his body, without the cape and dark costume. 

And in that second pic, Selina looks beautiful, even worn out from a fight! 

Go Joelle! I can't wait to see how she draws Bruce Wayne.

----------


## Caivu

> I wonder what's held the preview up? Spoilers early on?


No, quite the opposite: nothing happens at all.

----------


## Caivu

Batman #35 cover by Joëlle Jones:

DNmVmGcU8AA4cAM.jpg large.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Batman #35 cover by Joëlle Jones:
> 
> DNmVmGcU8AA4cAM.jpg large.jpg


Meow  :Wink:   :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Cmbmool

> Batman #35 cover by Joëlle Jones:
> 
> DNmVmGcU8AA4cAM.jpg large.jpg


Long overdue if you ask me.

----------


## Fergus

> Long overdue if you ask me.


Why?
Selina saving Bruce I like. The two fighting over Bruce not so much.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Why?
> Selina saving Bruce I like. The two fighting over Bruce not so much.


I DEFINETELY don't think that Selina is fighting OVER Bruce. I mean, I think for Selina, it's more because of what TAG had just done.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Batman #35 cover by Joëlle Jones:
> 
> Attachment 57234


That looks freaking amazing. It really do!

----------


## Celgress

> That looks freaking amazing. It really do!


I agree it sure does.  :Cool:

----------


## WeirdSpider

Best animated Catwoman. Way better than the Catwoman from "Batman the Animated series" who was just a damsel in distress.

----------


## Celgress

> Best animated Catwoman. Way better than the Catwoman from "Batman the Animated series" who was just a damsel in distress.


I agree, her best animated rendition to date.  :Cool:

----------


## Frontier

> Best animated Catwoman. Way better than the Catwoman from "Batman the Animated series" who was just a damsel in distress.


I don't think B:TAS Catwoman was just a "damsel in distress." 

As she said it herself "Never trifle with the affections of a woman." 

I think the show did a good job of capturing her personality, attitude, and complicated relationship with Batman and the law quite well. And more often then not I definitely still read Adrienne Barbeau as Selina. 

That being said, I also really enjoyed her in _The Batman_ and loved the design they gave her  :Smile: .

----------


## WontonGirl

I'm sorry but this version of Selina aka The Catwoman right here? I don't think she has ever looked more gorgeous or beautiful. And this is with the short hair too! And strong and powerful too! 

tumblr_oyrlcnCusB1wnz5g5o1_500.jpg

----------


## TheCape

She also opened Bruce's wound in that panel, Bruce you got a difficult lady :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> I'm sorry but this version of Selina aka The Catwoman right here? I don't think she has ever looked more gorgeous or beautiful. And this is with the short hair too! And strong and powerful too! 
> 
> tumblr_oyrlcnCusB1wnz5g5o1_500.jpg


Stunning  :Big Grin: .

Joelle Jones should draw more Catwoman  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> She also opened Bruce's wound in that panel, Bruce you got a difficult lady


Bruce has opened her own wounds like that too, LOL! He will be alright  :Smile:

----------


## WontonGirl

I think King said that Clay Mann will be doing the two Superman issues (36-37) and then Joelle comes back in #38. So I can't wait to see her Wonder Woman as well. 

I don't know if she will be the main artist for the rest of King's but IF somebody does another Catwoman book (cough King..), then she should be the artist.

----------


## Frontier

I'm not sure if I'd want a Catwoman book by King  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## sakuyamons

> I'm not sure if I'd want a Catwoman book by King .


...neither do I  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## sakuyamons

> I'm not sure if I'd want a Catwoman book by King .


...neither do I  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm not sure if I'd want a Catwoman book by King .


I want a Catwoman book by an author who really likes Catwoman. Perhaps if we got authors writing her book or a special 6-12 issue that REALLY likes her, then maybe we would get a better book. 

Either her or Goeff Johns. He likes her too.

----------


## SelinaK12

> I want a Catwoman book by an author who really likes Catwoman. Perhaps if we got authors writing her book or a special 6-12 issue that REALLY likes her, then maybe we would get a better book. 
> 
> Either her or Goeff Johns. He likes her too.


Yea i was happy when i saw selina in justice league of america i was happy and when rebirth came and made justice league of america in rebirth without the original cast i was kind of sad. I liked the selina and martian man hunter team up

----------


## TheCape

catwomanthief12-1.jpg
Is good to see how much Selina understand Bruce.

----------


## WeirdSpider

> I don't think B:TAS Catwoman was just a "damsel in distress."


She basically needed Batman to save her in most of her episodes.
"Cat Scratch Fever" she needed Batman to save her.
"Almost Got Im" she needed Batman to save her.
"Tyger Tyger" she was kidnapped and turned into a cat.
It's clear that the animated series writers had no idea what to do with the character.

----------


## Frontier

> She basically needed Batman to save her in most of her episodes.
> "Cat Scratch Fever" she needed Batman to save her.
> "Almost Got Im" she needed Batman to save her.
> "Tyger Tyger" she was kidnapped and turned into a cat.
> It's clear that the animated series writers had no idea what to do with the character.


And she was still an active presence in those episodes, so she did more then just be a "Damsel in distress."

I'd also reiterate that I think the show was able to capture Catwoman as a whole quite well even if there were times where she needed to be saved by Batman.

----------


## WontonGirl

> She basically needed Batman to save her in most of her episodes.
> "Cat Scratch Fever" she needed Batman to save her.
> "Almost Got Im" she needed Batman to save her.
> "Tyger Tyger" she was kidnapped and turned into a cat.
> It's clear that the animated series writers had no idea what to do with the character.


I think they knew. All of those episodes plus other episodes she was in, Cat could take care of herself. But when you dealing with bad people, lol, it's good to know the Bats will save you and help you out. Now, he has always done that for her since the Golden Age comics. 

And her presence in that cartoon was felt because WB wanted and almost had a Catwoman cartoon spin-off. Dini said they also wanted to do a Catwoman animated movie as well for years, but plans fell through. So however she was being portrayed as, the audience loved her and she was a fan favorite. 

Geoff Johns is also trying to get Catwoman in the DCEU. So hopefully we get Catwoman back in animation and/or in a movie soon.

----------


## WontonGirl

> catwomanthief12-1.jpg
> Is good to see how much Selina understand Bruce.


This was great arc. I know that it wasn't a romantic arc BUT it showed something that a lot of writers had never shown them as, friends. I mean he had a full scholarship ride for Helena, and that wasn't even his child. PLUS the teddy bear was too cute! Loved Tim Drake in the Cat books, LOL! 

And this Selina looked great too, with the long hair and those eyes!

----------


## SelinaK12

there has been rumors that Selina is going to be in the Nightwing movie

----------


## WontonGirl

> there has been rumors that Selina is going to be in the Nightwing movie


Makes sense! They have a long history as well. I mean they go back all the way to 1940 too! 

But if they put her in the movie, they most likely would have her as a straight up villain.

----------


## WontonGirl

This is my favorite panel! I mean he put a baby seat in the car for Selina's daughter!

tumblr_oy9bqhFizy1wwgvomo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Brian Bendis as the writer of a new Catwoman series.  Great idea or that sounds horrible?

----------


## Frontier

> Brian Bendis as the writer of a new Catwoman series.  Great idea or that sounds horrible?


I dunno.

I'm not sure if Bendis would get Selina but it would certainly be a big name to attach to her solo book.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I don't think B:TAS Catwoman was just a "damsel in distress." 
> 
> As she said it herself "Never trifle with the affections of a woman." 
> 
> I think the show did a good job of capturing her personality, attitude, and complicated relationship with Batman and the law quite well. And more often then not I definitely still read Adrienne Barbeau as Selina. 
> 
> That being said, I also really enjoyed her in _The Batman_ and loved the design they gave her .


I disagree. For me, Catwoman was my biggest grievance with BTAS. She was bloody incompetent and overall just had very few redeeming qualities as a character. Her episodes were some of the WORST in the entire show. I also didn't like the blonde design, it worked for Pfeifer-Selina, but it doesn't work in a vacuum IMO. And then the blue-skinned design...just wtf.

She was more entertaining in The Batman and her DC Showcase short.

----------


## WontonGirl

Quick for those reading Metal. 

 In the latest Metal one-shot, Batman: Lost; was that Selina as the "woman on the table" about to be sacrificed? It seemed like there were people from his life that were playing certain "representations" and then there were people that were there as themselves. I mean she looked exactly like Selina Kyle would look BUT the book is so trippy I wasn't sure.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Quick for those reading Metal. 
> 
>  In the latest Metal one-shot, Batman: Lost; was that Selina as the "woman on the table" about to be sacrificed? It seemed like there were people from his life that were playing certain "representations" and then there were people that were there as themselves. I mean she looked exactly like Selina Kyle would look BUT the book is so trippy I wasn't sure.


No that was some woman from Morrison's Bat-epic. It was curious because she didn't look like Selina then, but whatever. It sure looked like her in Lost, but I'm 99% sure it wasn't meant to be.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Brian Bendis as the writer of a new Catwoman series.  Great idea or that sounds horrible?


Hmmm, I don't know. I think pre-proposal, yes. I don't know if how he would right her now that she is engaged to Bats. I mean, don't get me wrong, he could certainly write her as a East End vigilante and he would probably do a good job with that. But he doesn't seem to be into Batman so he may write her extremely independent. So independent, you might forget she is engaged to the Bats. 

Remember, she is on his list (with about 50 other characters) that can "beat Batman", lol!

----------


## WontonGirl

> No that was some woman from Morrison's Bat-epic. It was curious because she didn't look like Selina then, but whatever. It sure looked like her in Lost, but I'm 99% sure it wasn't meant to be.


Okay, because I was thinking like, WOW she looks like Selina. But I was surprised because, well Metal has pretty much ignored Selina anyway so.... :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

> I disagree. For me, Catwoman was my biggest grievance with BTAS. She was bloody incompetent and overall just had very few redeeming qualities as a character. Her episodes were some of the WORST in the entire show. I also didn't like the blonde design, it worked for Pfeifer-Selina, but it doesn't work in a vacuum IMO. And then the blue-skinned design...just wtf.
> 
> She was more entertaining in The Batman and her DC Showcase short.


It was the complete opposite for me. I was always pretty captivated by her in B:TAS and Adrienne Barbeau just felt like she nailed Selina in my mind  :Smile: . 

It also sold me on Selina as a blonde  :Wink: .

----------


## adrikito

A present:

https://www.monkeysfightingrobots.co...ngs-batman-35/

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I disagree. For me, Catwoman was my biggest grievance with BTAS. She was bloody incompetent and overall just had very few redeeming qualities as a character. Her episodes were some of the WORST in the entire show. I also didn't like the blonde design, it worked for Pfeifer-Selina, but it doesn't work in a vacuum IMO. And then the blue-skinned design...just wtf.
> 
> She was more entertaining in The Batman and her DC Showcase short.


I will take whatever Selina I can get so I did like that she was included in B:TAS.  But I also hated they made her blonde, and only did it because for some lousy reason
they let Pfeiffer stay blonde in "Batman Returns", even though she was brunette in movies like "Married to the Mob".  And in retrospect while Selina  came off as tough
at times, she was too often just the damsel in distress that needed Batman to save her. Especially didn't like how Red Claw just wiped the floor with her. Selina is tougher
than that.

----------


## Frontier

_Gotham by Gaslight_ trailer:



Selina even makes the cover art.

----------


## Spencermalley935

> It was the complete opposite for me


I'm a huge BTAS fan but I'm sorry, Catwoman was definitely misused on that show for a large portion of it. Her design and voice actress were both spot-on and Catwalk was an excellent episode but most of the time it really did feel the crew of TAS had no clue what to do with her.

----------


## Frontier

It's nice to see Selina in a major role in a DC animated movie again, especially since the only other one I can think of where she played a meaningful or sizeable role was _Year One_ back in 2011.



Really curious to see how she's holding up all that hair though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> It's nice to see Selina in a major role in a DC animated movie again, especially since the only other one I can think of where she played a meaningful or sizeable role was _Year One_ back in 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> Really curious to see how she's holding up all that hair though .


But wasn't Year One just when she had her own animated short? I don't remember her being in any animated movies.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm a huge BTAS fan but I'm sorry, Catwoman was definitely misused on that show for a large portion of it. Her design and voice actress were both spot-on and Catwalk was an excellent episode but most of the time it really did feel the crew of TAS had no clue what to do with her.


Did you know that they were going to do a Catwoman: TAS spin-off based on her reception and popularity from BTAS? But the plans fell through. Paul Dini also said that they were trying to make a Catwoman animated movie as well but even that fell through. 

Geoff Johns is trying to get Catwoman to the DCEU. I hope it can happen.

----------


## Frontier

> But wasn't Year One just when she had her own animated short? I don't remember her being in any animated movies.


No, there was the showcase feature and there was also the _Year One_ movie that adapted Frank Miller's story.

----------


## CryNotWolf

What I recall is Bruce Timm pitching a Nightwing/Catwoman spin-off series that WB denied.

----------


## Godlike13

Timm and his gross pairings, lol.

----------


## Frontier

> What I recall is Bruce Timm pitching a Nightwing/Catwoman spin-off series that WB denied.


Okay, this is the first I've heard of that (sounds so random)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Did you know that they were going to do a Catwoman: TAS spin-off based on her reception and popularity from BTAS? But the plans fell through. Paul Dini also said that they were trying to make a Catwoman animated movie as well but even that fell through. 
> 
> Geoff Johns is trying to get Catwoman to the DCEU. I hope it can happen.


Do you mean before Gotham City Sirens, which I assume Catwoman will be in because it doesn't make sense to not have her in it?
A stand alone Catwoman movie with Selina Kyle in it this time? Or just a character that shows up in other movies.

----------


## WontonGirl

No I'm checking around now. I am sure it was Dini but perhaps there was supposed to be a Hush movie? 

Anyway, Dini was talking about some things that fell through the wayside at WB in regards to Catwoman, Batgirl and Wonder Woman. It was an eye-opening interview and he was spilling some dirt.

----------


## WontonGirl

> No, there was the showcase feature and there was also the _Year One_ movie that adapted Frank Miller's story.


Yes you are right, but was it that Catwoman didn't really speak in the movie? Or barely spoke at all?

----------


## Frontier

> No I'm checking around now. I am sure it was Dini but perhaps there was supposed to be a Hush movie?


There was a planned movie for _The Batman_ cartoon starring Hush. 




> Anyway, Dini was talking about some things that fell through the wayside at WB in regards to Catwoman, Batgirl and Wonder Woman. It was an eye-opening interview and he was spilling some dirt.


Is there a link to this interview?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Do you mean before Gotham City Sirens, which I assume Catwoman will be in because it doesn't make sense to not have her in it?
> A stand alone Catwoman movie with Selina Kyle in it this time? Or just a character that shows up in other movies.


No, Geoff Johns said a few times about people he is trying to get into the DCEU. The DCEU is just basically all the DC movies being connected. So he mentioned her and some other characters. He wasn't talking about Gotham City Sirens. This was a while ago when he said it. 

Word on the street (somebody posted on Reddit) that the WB wasn't too happy with David's original plans for GSC because 1) Harley is the star and the others take a backseat and 2) David wanted to cast Catwoman with a younger actress but the WB wants an older actress closer to Ben's age because they want Cat and Bat to end up together. 

Now those rumors have been posted on this thread before and of course, David is still attached to GSC. I don't really believe the second part but I will say that it would be nice to get a good Catwoman movie on the screen again.

----------


## WontonGirl

> There was a planned movie for _The Batman_ cartoon starring Hush. 
> 
> 
> Is there a link to this interview?


I'm trying to find it now. If anybody knows about it post it. He was saying that there was a planned animated movie for Batgirl BUT due to the animated Wonder Woman movie doing not as well as they hoped or wanted it to, Batgirl was canned. And he was talking about how really, they canned it because there was a perception that female-led movies wouldn't make the money and the animated WW movie proved it.

I don't know, maybe I am mixing up interviews  :Frown:

----------


## WeirdSpider

> There was a planned movie for _The Batman_ cartoon starring Hush.


Sad that we never got another "The Batman" movie. There was so much more that could have been done with that universe.




> I disagree. For me, Catwoman was my biggest grievance with BTAS. She was bloody incompetent and overall just had very few redeeming qualities as a character. Her episodes were some of the WORST in the entire show.


Yep I agree with this.




> She was more entertaining in *The Batman* and her DC Showcase short.


I think that of all the cartoons, "The Batman" had the best version of Catwoman.

----------


## Frontier

> Sad that we never got another "The Batman" movie. There was so much more that could have been done with that universe.


_Batman vs. Dracula_ was pretty good so I would've been curious to see how they'd handle Hush.




> I think that of all the cartoons, "The Batman" had the best version of Catwoman.


I thought she was a lot of fun, and I really liked her design, costume, and voice, but I also don't think they really developed her that much, or her relationship with Batman past her flirting with him and one date with Bruce Wayne, so I'm hesitant to say that she's the "best" Catwoman. 

I also thought _Brave and the Bold's_ Catwoman was pretty good as well.

----------


## WontonGirl

The Brave and The Bold Catwoman was great. 

I like BTAS' Catwoman and The Batman's Catwoman. So did a ton of other people and fans because she wouldn't had been one of the more popular characters on the show and with fans wanting to see more of her. 

I for one didn't like the "rebooted" BTAS Catwoman with the powdered face. Her character and her interactions with Batman were different. 

To each his own.

----------


## sakuyamons

Really liked Batman #35. Selina’s speech was great imo, and I was very “???” About King’s characterization of...everyone before this issue, but it seems like I’m along for the ride  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Really liked Batman #35. Selina’s speech was great imo, and I was very “???” About King’s characterization of...everyone before this issue, but it seems like I’m along for the ride


I think that speaks for a lot of us  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## SelinaK12

i think tom king hinted the wedding issue on twitter

----------


## WontonGirl

> i think tom king hinted the wedding issue on twitter


Are you talking about the post where he said that #50 was a huge issue? I am not going to say it's the "wedding issue". Not sure yet if they will be married.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Really liked Batman #35. Selina’s speech was great imo, and I was very “???” About King’s characterization of...everyone before this issue, but it seems like I’m along for the ride


Shoot this issue kicked ass for our girl. I mean, I really felt her words.

----------


## klynn

> Shoot this issue kicked ass for our girl. I mean, I really felt her words.


Yep, loved this issue.  King's voice for Selina gets stronger and stonger.  I'd love a King/Jones Catwoman solo book.

----------


## Sannom

Compared to Detective, at least King knows to not get too verbose in the middle of a tense battle scene.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I love what Tom King has done for Selina. It just keeps getting better. I feel like she's stronger than ever while fighting NOBLEY against Talia after defeating a platoon of her assassins. The fact she kicked Talia's sword back over to her after she knocked Talia down speaks volumes. Selina wanted to best Talia at her own game, and she did. And King really did capture Selina's voice. As a long-time fan who's often disappointed in how she is portrayed, I am becoming more and more impressed with her and how King writes her. Bravo.

----------


## Frontier

There was apparently (or potentially) a Catwoman Easter Egg in _Justice League_.

----------


## WontonGirl

> There was apparently (or potentially) a Catwoman Easter Egg in _Justice League_.


Yeah I saw this online somewhere that could this be a possible Easter Egg to the Catwoman. If it did, that would be great. Geoff Johns said a couple of years ago he wanted to get Catwoman in the DCEU. I mean to be honest, I would HOPE they would include Catwoman in the Batman solo films. It would seem odd not to have her.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I just saw the movie Friday and of course I suspected that was supposed to be Selina. My boyfriend sort of agreed. It's just so peculiar how the camera really focuses on her. For a second we thought she was Wonder Woman, but WW is shown a second later as police escort "Selina" away, WW has a band of bad guys tied up with her lasso.

----------


## WontonGirl

Hey guys! Make sure we are voting for our girl Catwoman in the Favorite Female Character in all of Comicdom Thread  :Big Grin: 

http://community.comicbookresources....ll-of-Comicdom

----------


## WontonGirl

So it seems FOX said No to an episode that would had focused on Black Canary and Catwoman in order to include more Robin  :Mad: 

https://www.cbr.com/batman-animated-...anary-episode/

Paul Dini just needs to write a "tell-all" book either about WB or DC Comics because he just loves spilling the secrets about all the stuff they didn't get a chance to do, LOL!

----------


## Frontier

Catwoman in _Batman Ninja_: 




Her hair reminds me of Camren Bicondova.

----------


## WontonGirl

Batman NINJA looks awesome! And of course, Catwoman is an ally  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

Definatly her hair. I`m pleased since she`s been a strong Catgirl so far.

----------


## WontonGirl

One of the many reasons why I don't like or read Silver Age Batman comics  :Big Grin: 

https://twitter.com/7ate9comics/stat...98481759686657

----------


## SelinaK12

Selina was in New Talent Showcases 2017

----------


## WontonGirl

> Selina was in New Talent Showcases 2017


Yes she was  :Big Grin:

----------


## sakuyamons

> One of the many reasons why I don't like or read Silver Age Batman comics 
> 
> https://twitter.com/7ate9comics/stat...98481759686657


Damn...That's really dumb but expected of the code  :Stick Out Tongue:  I'm glad she survived the Silver Age.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Damn...That's really dumb but expected of the code  I'm glad she survived the Silver Age.


Yeah and then after the Silver Age run, they tried to take her out again in the 70's; certain writers and such. Which was stupid because at the end of the 60's, she was more popular than ever because of the TV show. But she still came back and THIS time, she had a writer/turned editor Len Wein in her corner so she stayed around. 

She's a tough cookie.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Frontier

> One of the many reasons why I don't like or read Silver Age Batman comics 
> 
> https://twitter.com/7ate9comics/stat...98481759686657


Well, you can't argue that she does make crime look cool (and sexy)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(Although I'm pretty sure there were times when she was actually caught. Notably the "take me to jail and shut up" issue.)

----------


## DragonPiece

> One of the many reasons why I don't like or read Silver Age Batman comics 
> 
> https://twitter.com/7ate9comics/stat...98481759686657


Still one of my favorite costumes for Selina though.

----------


## TheCape

> Well, you can't argue that she does make crime look cool (and sexy)*.


Yeah, i remenber when i was a kid and saw Catwoman in Batman Returns and BTAS, there was always something about her that make her different for any other female characther that i had seen at the time, i didn't understand what it was in my teenage years  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> Yeah, i remenber when i was a kid and saw Catwoman in Batman Returns and BTAS, there was always something about her that make her different for any other female characther that i had seen at the time, i didn't understand what it was in my teenage years .


Sure, sure, you didn't understand huh? Okay  :Wink:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Still one of my favorite costumes for Selina though.


What about this costume when she was wearing the boots?? LOL! 

Batman-256-1974-403x616.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Here is a picture of her on the cover: 

Batman_256.jpg

----------


## Frontier

I remember when she put that outfit on in _Brave and the Bold_ to entice Batman and then she got stuck with Plastic Man as Batman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

> I remember when she put that outfit on in _Brave and the Bold_ to entice Batman and then she got stuck with Plastic Man as Batman .


HAHAHAHA.. I remember Plastic Man as Batman in Brave Bold.. He tried with many different versions of batman..

I am surprised for not see this image here:




> I imagine you guys might get a kick out of this. It's Batman #37 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep up the great work


The two favorite couples of both(bat/sup) fanbases..

----------


## WontonGirl

> HAHAHAHA.. I remember Plastic Man as Batman in Brave Bold.. He tried with many different versions of batman..
> 
> I am surprised for not see this image here:
> 
> 
> 
> The two favorite couples of both(bat/sup) fanbases..


Yeah we put it on the Bruce and Selina Appreciation Page!  :Embarrassment: 

Glad to see you over here!

----------


## areuyellingatmee

Awesome picture of the couples, but I'm still not a fan of the short haired catwoman...I'm hoping they'll eventually start drawing her growing it out.

----------


## Frontier

> Awesome picture of the couples, but I'm still not a fan of the short haired catwoman...I'm hoping they'll eventually start drawing her growing it out.


I'll be honest, I was too distracted by her outfit to notice her hair  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WontonGirl

> Awesome picture of the couples, but I'm still not a fan of the short haired catwoman...I'm hoping they'll eventually start drawing her growing it out.


Now Lois got short hair too. Seems her hair has been getting shorter each passing year.

----------


## WontonGirl

I don't know where this pic this story is from but I like her hair and dress here. 

d41f1dc8f407b2241ec1d690b12176b9.jpg

If anybody knows what story this is from, please spill it!

----------


## Frontier

> Now Lois got short hair too. Seems her hair has been getting shorter each passing year.


I thought Mann had been drawing it longer then most artists but I don't think anyone can keep consistent how long or short Reborn Lois's hair is supposed to be  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> I don't know where this pic this story is from but I like her hair and dress here. 
> 
> d41f1dc8f407b2241ec1d690b12176b9.jpg
> 
> If anybody knows what story this is from, please spill it!


The black and red narration boxes imply tome that this is from the New 52, because I don't think they were a thing pre-Flashpoint (could be wrong though).

----------


## WontonGirl

> I thought Mann had been drawing it longer then most artists but I don't think anyone can keep consistent how long or short Reborn Lois's hair is supposed to be .
> 
> The black and red narration boxes imply tome that this is from the New 52, because I don't think they were a thing pre-Flashpoint (could be wrong though).


Yeah I think it's N52 as well. This just doesn't look familiar at all. 

Also, how do I keep my pictures to stay big? When I posted this, it was the actual size.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I don't know where this pic this story is from but I like her hair and dress here. 
> 
> d41f1dc8f407b2241ec1d690b12176b9.jpg
> 
> If anybody knows what story this is from, please spill it!


New 52 Catwoman. Issue 25.

----------


## WontonGirl

> New 52 Catwoman. Issue 25.


Thanks for letting me know!

----------


## WeirdSpider

Is Catwoman's sister Maggie still canon or does she no longer exist?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Is Catwoman's sister Maggie still canon or does she no longer exist?


I going to say, based on what Rebirth is, yes she DOES exist. But she is just a story character that they haven't used in ages.

----------


## Frontier

> Is Catwoman's sister Maggie still canon or does she no longer exist?


I still think King should've used Maggie in the role he shoved Holly into.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I still think King should've used Maggie in the role he shoved Holly into.


No, I don't think so. Why would he have her sister do that to her? Plus her sister is pretty messed up so she wouldn't be able to anyway. 

I think that Holly made sense. I mean, sometimes people you do things for in years past, they can be the ones that turn on you. Remember she first stabbed Batman and then got the people to go in on him back in Year One. She didn't have to do that. 

It probably would had been best if he just used some new no-name character. Somebody that Selina helped in the past. That way, nobody would had cared. 

But then again, using Holly was smart because it got people feeling some kind of way in the story.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Is Catwoman's sister Maggie still canon or does she no longer exist?


The last time I saw Maggie Kyle show up was in Gotham City Sirens #12, #13 & #22.  But that was pre-New 52. Has Maggie shown up anywhere else since then?

----------


## Sannom

> I'll be honest, I was too distracted by her outfit to notice her hair .


Not gonna lie, I don't like it. It feels too much like something a teenage girl in desperate need of attention would wear, Selina is usually classier than that!

----------


## Frontier

> Not gonna lie, I don't like it. It feels too much like something a teenage girl in desperate need of attention would wear, Selina is usually classier than that!


I mean, it is a tad overt, but I don't think it's completely out-of-character for her to be overt like that when she feels like it.

Just my take on it.

----------


## Punisher007

> One of the many reasons why I don't like or read Silver Age Batman comics 
> 
> https://twitter.com/7ate9comics/stat...98481759686657


I've always disliked that costume myself.  But then again, I dislike Selina having purple outfits in general.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I've always disliked that costume myself.  But then again, I dislike Selina having purple outfits in general.


I like them a lot more than this:

awodcc&4.jpg

----------


## Osiris-Rex

This is still my favorite one.  Who cares if it is totally impractical.  It's comic books. And Batman and Superman have capes, why not Catwoman.

8629375_orig.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> I've always disliked that costume myself.  But then again, I dislike Selina having purple outfits in general.


I feel like purple is kind of her color though...

----------


## WontonGirl

Can anybody tell me how to keep my pictures big when I post them?

----------


## Sannom

> This is still my favorite one.  Who cares if it is totally impractical.  It's comic books. And Batman and Superman have capes, why not Catwoman.


That's the one they use in the Brave and the Bold cartoon, right? I loved that costume!

----------


## areuyellingatmee

> This is still my favorite one.  Who cares if it is totally impractical.  It's comic books. And Batman and Superman have capes, why not Catwoman.
> 
> 8629375_orig.jpg


That's one of my favs! I hope she goes back to something like that, it's time to change it up!

----------


## Huntsman1117

Before reading last month's Batman Annual, I was talking with my comic shop clerk and we were a little worried that they might kill off Catwoman because this engagement is almost too perfect - even Talia approves! But then the Annual, if cannon, proves that won't be the case. The Annual was great, of course, and the ending heartwarming. 
Back to Talia, I THOROUGHLY enjoyed watching Catwoman beat her at her own game. And I was even more surprised to see Talia and even Damien somewhat accept Selina. 
I cant wait to see how Superman, Lois, Batman, and Catwoman's double date is going to go. This keeps getting better.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> That's the one they use in the Brave and the Bold cartoon, right? I loved that costume!


It's similar. Except the Brave and Bold cartoon used the cowl with the round ears. In the most the comic books she had pointy ears on the cowl.




> Before reading last month's Batman Annual, I was talking with my comic shop clerk and we were a little worried that they might kill off Catwoman because this engagement is almost too perfect - even Talia approves! But then the Annual, if cannon, proves that won't be the case. The Annual was great, of course, and the ending heartwarming. 
> Back to Talia, I THOROUGHLY enjoyed watching Catwoman beat her at her own game. And I was even more surprised to see Talia and even Damien somewhat accept Selina. 
> I cant wait to see how Superman, Lois, Batman, and Catwoman's double date is going to go. This keeps getting better.


Catwoman is one of those legacy characters like Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Scarecrow, that no one is going to be allowed to kill off in the main continuity.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I wouldn't say that... Batman and all 3 Robins have died one way or another, Batgirl was paralyzed, and I think both the Joker and Batman "died" a year or so ago before Rebirth. 

On another note, I'm assuming the events of "Hush" is not a part of the Rebirth history? Because Selina kidnapped Lois back then... Now they are just meeting for the first time, again.

----------


## WontonGirl

Really no comic characters "die" persay. If they are killed off in the story, they usually bring them back. Sometimes within a reboot or sometimes after. But I don't see King killing off Catwoman. If he does, well, I'm sure DC Comics would bring her back. 

When DC Comics closes it's door for the final time, that's when you will see who will end up dying and being declared "dead" if they do a final flash forward.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Right.  Eventually they come back it might take years, but they do come back. Kara Zor-El was killed off in 1984 but in 2005 she was back again and has been back ever since and now even has her own TV show.
A few years back there were stories that Catwoman had been killed when Catwoman was a member of the Justice League.  But then it just turned out it was Martian Manhunter shape shifting into Catwoman
to fake her death. (He didn't die either)  And in Convergience Catwoman, July 2015, she took a bullet to save Batman, but obviously that didn't last, because in New 52 Catwoman #41, August 2015, Catwoman 
was still very much alive. So even if someone were to write a story where they kill Catwoman, some other writer later on would probably have it turn out she just faked her death.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Right.  Eventually they come back it might take years, but they do come back. Kara Zor-El was killed off in 1984 but in 2005 she was back again and has been back ever since and now even has her own TV show.
> A few years back there were stories that Catwoman had been killed when Catwoman was a member of the Justice League.  But then it just turned out it was Martian Manhunter shape shifting into Catwoman
> to fake her death. (He didn't die either)  And in Convergience Catwoman, July 2015, she took a bullet to save Batman, but obviously that didn't last, because in New 52 Catwoman #41, August 2015, Catwoman 
> was still very much alive. So even if someone were to write a story where they kill Catwoman, some other writer later on would probably have it turn out she just faked her death.


Right, they wouldn't kill her off in the main Batman title. And again, if they did, they would bring her back. I could see that happening as well. King leaves the title and then Batman moves on to somebody else or maybe not but then she reappears in Gotham under a new writer, perhaps even under a new alias. You know that story, blah, blah, before she reveals herself, blah, blah 

Shoot, they killed off Superman once and brought him back, LOL!

----------


## El_Gato

http://community.comicbookresources....omicdom/page15

Go and vote for Catwoman, or whoever lol. Just think she could use more votes  :Wink:

----------


## WontonGirl

> http://community.comicbookresources....omicdom/page15
> 
> Go and vote for Catwoman, or whoever lol. Just think she could use more votes


Can you vote twice? I mean she seems kind of close!

----------


## SelinaK12

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/books-co...lusive-preview

----------


## K Nikk

What is the current canon origin story for Selina Kyle?  

It's bothered me for years that Year-One broke so much of her characterization.  She went from grand villain who gets foiled by (or who rescues) Batman because of HER attraction to HIM, to simple thief who gets away with her crimes because of HIS attraction to HER.  How is the person who is capable of setting traps for Batman and fighting Batman, the same person who stays with an abusive pimp and gets by on petty theft?  It erased so much of her magnificence, and that result is still felt when people keep referring to it, and not believing she could be (for example) smart enough to figure out Superman's identity ("if she could, any thief could" - can any thief set a trap for Batman?), or appalled that she could beat Talia.  I don't want to bring down Talia - Talia SHOULD be a tremendous swordsman, but Selina is an excellent fighter and she beats Talia by kicking her over a wall and stabbing her before she's back on her feet - that shouldn't be a stretch for Catwoman OR an insult to Talia, after all she used to go toe-to-toe with Batman.  She finds ways to use her opponents strengths against them (for example, their over-confidence).  I think people disregard her abilities because they think she is street level, and that's.... frustrating.  She had henchmen!  She had a menagerie of predators!  She had cat-themed devices!  Ok - different era, but still, she wasn't street level.  Batman had so many more reasons to be attracted to her (as did this fan):  Her abilities, her mind, her creativity, her hidden goodness and attraction towards him (when push came to shove she would save him, or leave him the tools to save himself though making sure no one else noticed).  Man - I miss that aspect of their romance.  It felt legitimately equal. I realize I may just miss the previous age Catwoman.  Tom King's Batman Annual reminded me a little of her.  His recent run on Batman at least doesn't refer too much to the year-one version, and he lets her be a bit more formidable than it seems others have (considering the objections people have had). I have sort of clung to the fact that Batman remembers their boat meeting as their first meeting as a sign that maybe some of that previous age Catwoman has crossed over to this one (even if they won't be explicit about it). 

I've assumed that the year one origin must still be valid, and I've avoided reading a lot of her runs because it felt like more of the same including the Brubaker run (street level, past abuse, neighbourhood watch, broken woman - no menagerie, no henchmen, no daring traps, no flashes of brilliance).  People keep referring to this origin story so I assumed it was still canon - but now I've just read that there was a story Zero Hour that changes it, and that some writers have dropped that aspect from canon altogether.  And with Rebirth and references to much earlier Catwoman/Batman stories (like meeting on the boat) I'm confused about which history this current Catwoman has had. 

I'm more than ok with just proceeding with my head canon (ignores significant amounts of her story - including year-one and that Slam stuff), but are there actually stories out there I have missed that would fit nicely into my version of Catwoman/Selina Kyle?  Christmas is coming and I can still add to my wish list. 

Mostly unrelated:  Also I have been giving serious thought to what Selina Kyle/Catwoman WOULD do if she retired from crime.  I don't see her being neighbourhood watch - that aspect never seemed to fit her earlier stories.  I don't see her rescuing people unless she had a connection with them (that seems to fit - drawn into something because it would affect someone she loved).  I was thinking, if this relationship went forward, and being a vigilante was out of the question - would a role as mentor be possible?  In both the Annual and the New Talent Spotlight it touched on her desire to make sure people she cared about were prepared, even if it was tough love.  I could see her patrolling not to keep the city safe but to train whoever she was mentoring well enough that she felt more secure that they would survive.  I could see her being playful in the training - setting traps etc. Letting them get in over their heads before pulling them out.  She would get bored being a do-gooder, but she could still do good by making her new family the best they could be (which would also let her play up her villainous side a little).  I thought it would be a good way to let her be casual about "goodness", show her fighting skills, show her intelligence and trap skills, and show her protective side.     

Just thoughts for this thread (wouldn't dare post it elsewhere).

----------


## Mutant God

I'm on the fence for her origin: either poor abused kid who watch her sister get hit/watch her mother commit suicide/watch her father drank himself to death or Kleptomaniac Mafia Princess who might be related to the Falcone family.

If Selina does get married does anyone think she stop being Catwoman only for someone else to become the 2nd Catwoman?

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm on the fence for her origin: either poor abused kid who watch her sister get hit/watch her mother commit suicide/watch her father drank himself to death or Kleptomaniac Mafia Princess who might be related to the Falcone family.
> 
> If Selina does get married does anyone think she stop being Catwoman only for someone else to become the 2nd Catwoman?


Well in Pfifer's run, when she was pregnant and raising her baby Helena for a year or so, Holly Robinson stepped in and took over as Catwoman. And then in the N52, didn't Eiko step in for her as Catwoman as well? So it could happen, just don't know who would take up the mantle.

----------


## K Nikk

> Well in Pfifer's run, when she was pregnant and raising her baby Helena for a year or so, Holly Robinson stepped in and took over as Catwoman. And then in the N52, didn't Eiko step in for her as Catwoman as well? So it could happen, just don't know who would take up the mantle.


Could it be Holly Robinson this time around?  Comes forward about the crime but doesn't give herself in and claims to be Catwoman, thus erasing whatever connection "Catwoman" has to Selina Kyle - "Selina was my friend, she took the fall.  She isn't Catwoman.  I am.  Catch me if you can!".  That could allow Selina and Bruce to move forward, and avoid the Catwoman(as Selina)/Batman connection to compromise the Batman = Bruce Wayne connection.   Holly Robinson can take on a public Catwoman persona while evading both police and Batman (maybe she will be on a vengeance tour for a while and that could be a source of conflict for Bruce/Selina - fitting into the "maybe it will all be ok if I become like the Punisher" idea, until it ultimately is NOT ok and she comes back to earth and deals with the fallout and - hopefully - heals from it).  This could be the redo of that storyline.

----------


## WontonGirl

> What is the current canon origin story for Selina Kyle?  
> 
> It's bothered me for years that Year-One broke so much of her characterization.  She went from grand villain who gets foiled by (or who rescues) Batman because of HER attraction to HIM, to simple thief who gets away with her crimes because of HIS attraction to HER.  How is the person who is capable of setting traps for Batman and fighting Batman, the same person who stays with an abusive pimp and gets by on petty theft?  It erased so much of her magnificence, and that result is still felt when people keep referring to it, and not believing she could be (for example) smart enough to figure out Superman's identity ("if she could, any thief could" - can any thief set a trap for Batman?), or appalled that she could beat Talia.  I don't want to bring down Talia - Talia SHOULD be a tremendous swordsman, but Selina is an excellent fighter and she beats Talia by kicking her over a wall and stabbing her before she's back on her feet - that shouldn't be a stretch for Catwoman OR an insult to Talia, after all she used to go toe-to-toe with Batman.  She finds ways to use her opponents strengths against them (for example, their over-confidence).  I think people disregard her abilities because they think she is street level, and that's.... frustrating.  She had henchmen!  She had a menagerie of predators!  She had cat-themed devices!  Ok - different era, but still, she wasn't street level.  Batman had so many more reasons to be attracted to her (as did this fan):  Her abilities, her mind, her creativity, her hidden goodness and attraction towards him (when push came to shove she would save him, or leave him the tools to save himself though making sure no one else noticed).  Man - I miss that aspect of their romance.  It felt legitimately equal. I realize I may just miss the previous age Catwoman.  Tom King's Batman Annual reminded me a little of her.  His recent run on Batman at least doesn't refer too much to the year-one version, and he lets her be a bit more formidable than it seems others have (considering the objections people have had). I have sort of clung to the fact that Batman remembers their boat meeting as their first meeting as a sign that maybe some of that previous age Catwoman has crossed over to this one (even if they won't be explicit about it). 
> 
> I've assumed that the year one origin must still be valid, and I've avoided reading a lot of her runs because it felt like more of the same including the Brubaker run (street level, past abuse, neighbourhood watch, broken woman - no menagerie, no henchmen, no daring traps, no flashes of brilliance).  People keep referring to this origin story so I assumed it was still canon - but now I've just read that there was a story Zero Hour that changes it, and that some writers have dropped that aspect from canon altogether.  And with Rebirth and references to much earlier Catwoman/Batman stories (like meeting on the boat) I'm confused about which history this current Catwoman has had. 
> 
> I'm more than ok with just proceeding with my head canon (ignores significant amounts of her story - including year-one and that Slam stuff), but are there actually stories out there I have missed that would fit nicely into my version of Catwoman/Selina Kyle?  Christmas is coming and I can still add to my wish list. 
> 
> Mostly unrelated:  Also I have been giving serious thought to what Selina Kyle/Catwoman WOULD do if she retired from crime.  I don't see her being neighbourhood watch - that aspect never seemed to fit her earlier stories.  I don't see her rescuing people unless she had a connection with them (that seems to fit - drawn into something because it would affect someone she loved).  I was thinking, if this relationship went forward, and being a vigilante was out of the question - would a role as mentor be possible?  In both the Annual and the New Talent Spotlight it touched on her desire to make sure people she cared about were prepared, even if it was tough love.  I could see her patrolling not to keep the city safe but to train whoever she was mentoring well enough that she felt more secure that they would survive.  I could see her being playful in the training - setting traps etc. Letting them get in over their heads before pulling them out.  She would get bored being a do-gooder, but she could still do good by making her new family the best they could be (which would also let her play up her villainous side a little).  I thought it would be a good way to let her be casual about "goodness", show her fighting skills, show her intelligence and trap skills, and show her protective side.     
> ...


THIS! All of this. And I think you should put this on other threads like the main title thread when a new book comes out because you got the cross section of readers there. When you post it here, you are "preaching to the choir" so to speak. People who may NOT be familiar with all these aspects need to see this post. 

I think that Catwoman did a lot of this stuff in her own title. I mean, she did it in Batman and Detective titles that she would show up in as well (post crisis) but a lot of her highly technical skills were shown in her title. I really think that's what happened. When they gave Catwoman her own title, that pulled her out of the main titles. So if you were not reading Catwoman, then you didn't see a lot of her badass moves and plans. 

Plus this is just a different generation of readers. I mean, a lot of the newer fans seem not to have as much reverence for history. History for a lot of them is the past 10 years and it's not like Morrison or Synder rotated her in much. Dini and a couple of others really were the ones that kept her looped into the main titles and then the N52, which still a lot of fans refer too, really damaged her. And I don't even think she was in the N52 Bat title at all so out of sight, sometimes out of mind.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Could it be Holly Robinson this time around?  Comes forward about the crime but doesn't give herself in and claims to be Catwoman, thus erasing whatever connection "Catwoman" has to Selina Kyle - "Selina was my friend, she took the fall.  She isn't Catwoman.  I am.  Catch me if you can!".  That could allow Selina and Bruce to move forward, and avoid the Catwoman(as Selina)/Batman connection to compromise the Batman = Bruce Wayne connection.   Holly Robinson can take on a public Catwoman persona while evading both police and Batman (maybe she will be on a vengeance tour for a while and that could be a source of conflict for Bruce/Selina - fitting into the "maybe it will all be ok if I become like the Punisher" idea, until it ultimately is NOT ok and she comes back to earth and deals with the fallout and - hopefully - heals from it).  This could be the redo of that storyline.


No for me, Catwoman needs to be Catwoman. This ain't Marvel where a lot of characters go through massive character changes and complete character transformations. She IS the Catwoman. We would just have to wait and see what happens but I'm sure that King can work that out. Bruce and other Robins have "died" and come back so I'm sure this is something they will figure out and fall in line with the story.

----------


## K Nikk

> No for me, Catwoman needs to be Catwoman. This ain't Marvel where a lot of characters go through massive character changes and complete character transformations. She IS the Catwoman. We would just have to wait and see what happens but I'm sure that King can work that out. Bruce and other Robins have "died" and come back so I'm sure this is something they will figure out and fall in line with the story.


Yes - it couldn't be a permanent takeover.   I agree that Selina would not give up Catwoman - Catwoman isn't what Selina does but who she is.  But the story could be an opportunity for the reset of secret identities enough to break the public link between Selina Kyle and Catwoman; enough to protect Bruce and Selina from compromising their identifies with the engagement, and in a way that would make them anxious to stop Holly/protect Holly/help Holly? in a very confusing storyline (Batman wanting to stop criminal/revenge behavioru, Selina wanting to recover control over "Catwoman".)  Selina as Catwoman could be active throughout the entire thing - but with the public thinking she's some other person.  

There is no need for Holly to reveal her own identity, she would just need to prove that at that moment "Catwoman" is NOT Selina Kyle.

It would also allow Batman and Catwoman to be caught in compromising situations in the future without the "Selina Kyle with Batman!  That must be Bruce!" because "Catwoman" would be back to an unknown.   :Big Grin: 

I'm not dead set on anything and look forward to what the writers comes up with.  I've dealt with 20 or so years of a back story I find unpalatable, so that I'm much less precious about storylines now.  There will be years and years of more stories - this one doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Yes - it couldn't be a permanent takeover.   I agree that Selina would not give up Catwoman - Catwoman isn't what Selina does but who she is.  But the story could be an opportunity for the reset of secret identities enough to break the public link between Selina Kyle and Catwoman; enough to protect Bruce and Selina from compromising their identifies with the engagement, and in a way that would make them anxious to stop Holly/protect Holly/help Holly? in a very confusing storyline (Batman wanting to stop criminal/revenge behavioru, Selina wanting to recover control over "Catwoman".)  Selina as Catwoman could be active throughout the entire thing - but with the public thinking she's some other person.  
> 
> There is no need for Holly to reveal her own identity, she would just need to prove that at that moment "Catwoman" is NOT Selina Kyle.
> 
> It would also allow Batman and Catwoman to be caught in compromising situations in the future without the "Selina Kyle with Batman!  That must be Bruce!" because "Catwoman" would be back to an unknown.  
> 
> I'm not dead set on anything and look forward to what the writers comes up with.  I've dealt with 20 or so years of a back story I find unpalatable, so that I'm much less precious about storylines now.  There will be years and years of more stories - this one doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable.


Yes, I also sent you a PM  :Smile:

----------


## Mutant God

I think it would be funny if the new Catwoman was an inmate from Arkham Asylum who actually thought she was a cat lol

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think it would be funny if the new Catwoman was an inmate from Arkham Asylum who actually thought she was a cat lol


Now you on to something. I think a good story would be an inmate from Arkham that is doing villainous things in the name of Catwoman and then Selina or more importantly Batman, has to bring her down. Could have a standoff with Bad Cat and Good Cat in the public square and see the Good Cat do something like save somebody's life that Bad Cat has hanging in the balance. If the public sees Good Cat, then maybe they can lay off of "well who is Catwoman" and then just go back to normal. 

this makes sense in my head, trust me.

----------


## K Nikk

Anyone see the image from #39 that King linked in his twitter?  With Batman with the sword and armour and Selina You look ridiculous?  Would this be a thread we can talk about it in?  I have some theories.

Also, Joelle draws a very pretty Selina.  She doesnt really look like catwoman in her gear - she still looks like Selina, but she looks lovely and relatable.  A little on the young side, but then Selina still sees herself as young (call back to #37).   :Smile: . I think I like Janin (?) for a more mature and elegantly beautiful Selina, but Joelle captures a youthful happy Selina which is nice to see (so far).  Ive re-read the #36 and #37 today and do really like Clays(?) Catwoman, even when shes being seductive.  Normally I do not like the cleavage shots but in that cave scene I felt she was trying to provoke Bruce into talking to her, or if she feels that he might be ashamed of her she wasnt going to hide her extreme sides from or for him, but that she would understand all the same.  I noticed that twice in this issue she asked whether it was because it was her that he wouldnt tell Clark (first because he coudlnt trust her with their identities, second because he might be ashamed of her).  

I loved the catlike way Clay (or is it Mann? I dont have the issue in front of me right this second) portrays catwoman.  She plays when bored (handstand), she shows her curiosity in her body movement (like cocking her head and torso when looking down the elevator shaft, and moving back and forth behind Batman on the page where they all get out of the elevators at the same time), when she wants something she gets tactile and distracting (like getting in Bruces chair), and that justifies as well the on-all-fours positions at times its more catlike-stalking and less ... provocative (the ones when they are on the building I mean, not the one in the cave - that one for sure is meant to also be provocative). Not a fan of his Selina, but on repeated readings it has grown on me. 

Anyway, that went on a tangent.  Is this a good place for theories on #39 based on that Joelle page?

----------


## nutmeg

> Anyone see the image from #39 that King linked in his twitter?  With Batman with the sword and armour and Selina “You look ridiculous”?


This one? The Wonder Woman issue:

DRWfNG1XUAAj5ra.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> Anyone see the image from #39 that King linked in his twitter?  With Batman with the sword and armour and Selina “You look ridiculous”?  Would this be a thread we can talk about it in?  I have some theories.
> 
> Also, Joelle draws a very pretty Selina.  She doesn’t really look like catwoman in her gear - she still looks like Selina, but she looks lovely and relatable.  A little on the young side, but then Selina still sees herself as young (call back to #37).  . I think I like Janin (?) for a more mature and elegantly beautiful Selina, but Joelle captures a youthful happy Selina which is nice to see (so far).  I’ve re-read the #36 and #37 today and do really like Clay’s(?) Catwoman, even when she’s being seductive.  Normally I do not like the cleavage shots but in that cave scene I felt she was trying to provoke Bruce into talking to her, or if she feels that he might be ashamed of her she wasn’t going to hide her extreme sides from or for him, but that she would understand all the same.  I noticed that twice in this issue she asked whether it was because it was her that he wouldn’t tell Clark (first because he coudln’t trust her with their identities, second because he might be ashamed of her).  
> 
> I loved the catlike way Clay (or is it Mann? I don’t have the issue in front of me right this second) portrays catwoman.  She plays when bored (handstand), she shows her curiosity in her body movement (like cocking her head and torso when looking down the elevator shaft, and moving back and forth behind Batman on the page where they all get out of the elevators at the same time), when she wants something she gets tactile and distracting (like getting in Bruce’s chair), and that justifies as well the on-all-fours positions at times it’s more catlike-stalking and less ... provocative (the ones when they are on the building I mean, not the one in the cave - that one for sure is meant to also be provocative). Not a fan of his Selina, but on repeated readings it has grown on me. 
> 
> Anyway, that went on a tangent.  Is this a good place for theories on #39 based on that Joelle page?


Yes, you can talk about your Catwoman theories here if you like. This is an appreciation thread for her and the Selina Kyle character so feel free to post your theories, pics or videos of her. 

With that being said, what is your theory?  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Cute review of Batman #37




> Lois Lane and Catwoman Just Became Our New Favorite Dynamic Duo


https://www.cbr.com/lois-lane-catwom...t-dynamic-duo/

----------


## Katana500

> This one? The Wonder Woman issue:
> 
> DRWfNG1XUAAj5ra.jpg


I cannot wait! It looks like it's gonna be another really fun issue!

I wanna hear your theories too K Nikk.  :Smile:

----------


## SelinaK12

DRk3OoBUQAAg-jA.jpg by ultimate_mororo

----------


## K Nikk

oh no.  I set up too high an expectation for my theory.  It's very minor.  The page gives the impression of someone wearing something he has been forced to wear - not his own choice.  This is the wonder woman mini-arc, so could she have called on him for something ceremonial and instructed him on the kind of attire. Since this is armor maybe there is a formal fighting/combat element but not a "to the death" or anything, more like either tournament or... something at least where Selina doesn't look to concerned for his safety.  Ok, so something ceremonial with Wonder Woman, where it's swords and armor based - meeting with the gods?  With the Amazons?  I doubt it's something where someone needs to be beaten otherwise she would do it herself, or if she NEEDED a fighting partner she would have chosen Superman, so it's something that needs to be solved perhaps.  And Batman has to be "accepted" in order to assist (thus the armor and sword)...

Are the various books tied together at all?  I checked what was happening in Wonder Woman, but really there was no sign of the events of 36, 37 in Superman so I doubt what is happening in Wonder Woman would come to bare (bear?).  

I'm actually a little nervous that Batman comic seems to not get referenced at ALL in the other comics, and Catwoman hasn't come up at all in Metal even though a wide range of characters have.  Is there an explanation for this?  Should we be worried?  Does Snyder not like Catwoman, so just isn't using her (beyond a dead Catwoman in one panel, and reference I assume to "Sylvester").  Talia is back to calling Batman 'Beloved'...

----------


## WontonGirl

> DRk3OoBUQAAg-jA.jpg by ultimate_mororo


This was one of the cutest things I saw on Twitter last week! I wanted to bring it over here so I am glad that somebody else did  :Embarrassment:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Are the various books tied together at all?  I checked what was happening in Wonder Woman, but really there was no sign of the events of 36, 37 in Superman so I doubt what is happening in Wonder Woman would come to bare (bear?).


The Superfriends arc deals with BOTH Superman's and Wondey's reaction to Bruce's engagement. So their particular issues have no bearing on each other. Superman gave his reactions in 36/37. Now in 39/40, we will get Wonder Woman's reactions. You won't find out what it's about until you get the solicitations or when King starts to drops spoilers on his Twitter like he often does.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm actually a little nervous that Batman comic seems to not get referenced at ALL in the other comics, and Catwoman hasn't come up at all in Metal even though a wide range of characters have.  Is there an explanation for this?  Should we be worried?  .


And this is the number #1 reason why I am not so convinced that they are getting married. You are absolutely correct, Batman's engagement has not been really referenced at all outside of the Batman title. I mean, Batman is their #1 seller and he pops up in darn near every book AND the couple is iconic so I thought it would had made some references in other books by now. So this leads me to believe that either DC Comics is not really taking this seriously or that they are just letting it happen in this line. I did expect for some kind of reference to be made in at least Tec by now. BUT then again, Tim being back hasn't been referenced in the Batman title either.  

So I don't know, we will just have to wait and see. But perhaps later on it will. Just enjoy it while you can and remember what's happening in the Batman title is canon.  :Smile:

----------


## K Nikk

How do people think Wonder Woman will react to the engagement?  I'm not too familiar with Catwoman and Diana interactions (there is a one shot where Wonder Woman recruits catwoman and Harley? To clean up crime in gotham - it was just a one shot/non-canon though I think. 

She's supposed to be about compassion which would suggest she would be supportive or understanding but she also seems quite morally upright, so not sure if she could condone Selina being a wanted criminal. I don't know her well enough, she seems very mission oriented so I wonder if it would be a mix of understanding/compassion and concern over the risk in making a connection between Bruce and Batman.  Or would it be an issue for her that Selina is on the lam essentially and Batman not turning her in will be a problem (she may suggest that Selina be turned in while they try to clear her name.  Is she a trust in the system kind of person?).. Anyone know the character better and have a guess?

----------


## K Nikk

> And this is the number #1 reason why I am not so convinced that they are getting married. You are absolutely correct, Batman's engagement has not been really referenced at all outside of the Batman title. I mean, Batman is their #1 seller and he pops up in darn near every book AND the couple is iconic so I thought it would had made some references in other books by now. So this leads me to believe that either DC Comics is not really taking this seriously or that they are just letting it happen in this line. I did expect for some kind of reference to be made in at least Tec by now. BUT then again, Tim being back hasn't been referenced in the Batman title either.  
> 
> So I don't know, we will just have to wait and see. But perhaps later on it will. Just enjoy it while you can and remember what's happening in the Batman title is canon.


When the original date for the final Metal issue was Valentine's Day, I wondered if it would link up there. But I think that has shifted now. Part of me thinks they are letting Tom clarify the situation so avoiding her until he finishes his arc - which makes sense too. They're trying to avoiding tipping their hand to hint how things work out but of course the lack of mentions also feels like tipping hand. Joker says in the start of metal about killing the robins and reigniting the old romance/flame. I figured he was talking about the Batman/Joker dynamic but also it gave me an uneasy feeling if he had manipulated the Bruce/Selina situation (though I don't see how). 

I don't know how the people at DC feel about Catwoman. If there are any fans of her older origins (when she was more impressive; when her connection with Batman was more about equals and mutual respect/admiration than about damaged people who's broken edges fit together) - fans of the former could see a healthy relationship, fans of the later might see a dramatic roller coaster.  That being said maybe dramatic roller coaster has more legs story wise. King said that marriages tend to get avoided because it fells like a happy ending and that reduces conflicts for the characters but for Batman, being happy itself is a new source of conflict because that is not a natural state -maybe that means not to worry that marriage for him would stagnate storylines but create new ones (his statement paraphrased from memory), so maybe that would make DC more ok to let it work... Or Tom King is writing a bunch of feel good moments so we can come back to them in the future and "at least have these moments" -things are going too smoothly and we are only very lightly touching on Selina's thought about this.

I really want to see her having more interactions with bat-family. Really happy she was included in the new talent showcase.  A part of me wants this marriage to go through just to see more of those interactions. Does anyone know the issue where Nighteing (I think) comes to ask Selina for help but at first she thinks he wants to help her and she tells him "someday you'll have to tell me what goes on in that good guy head of yours" and something about him seeing protecting her as protecting "Daddy's girlfriend", and he answers "well he's not my dad but..." Implying that he does look out for her because of her connection to the family .  I really want to see more interactions with these two and hoping eventually other writers can explore it once she's more firmly in the family unit.

----------


## Thirteen

> This is still my favorite one.  Who cares if it is totally impractical.  It's comic books. And Batman and Superman have capes, why not Catwoman.
> 
> Attachment 59417





> That's the one they use in the Brave and the Bold cartoon, right? I loved that costume!

----------


## Thirteen

> I think it would be funny if the new Catwoman was an inmate from Arkham Asylum who actually thought she was a cat lol


For some reason I am reminded of the comic-within-comic version of Catwoman from an old issue of Detective Comics.  It was like a supernatural else worlds tale.

----------


## SelinaK12

DSKWMAxWsAAj8eJ.jpg selina in batman #38

----------


## WontonGirl

Question, does anybody know where these scans are coming from for Batman #38? Meaning, where is the preview where these pics are coming from?

----------


## nutmeg

> Question, does anybody know where these scans are coming from for Batman #38? Meaning, where is the preview where these pics are coming from?


Sometimes comics arrived earlier for some lucky people if you're subscribing direct to DC.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Sometimes comics arrived earlier for some lucky people if you're subscribing direct to DC.


It's just that I keep seeing just these two pics. Usually, with the previews, they spoil more now with the pics. Sometimes it's overkill with the spoiling but I was just wondering.

----------


## DiamondGirl

Loved, loved, loved Batman Annual #2.  Excellent portrayal of Cat.

----------


## TomServofan

Who else thought Selina Kyle in Batman Year One by Frank Miller looks like Sinead O'Conner? i have for 26 years since one of my first graphic novel purchases when i bought it after hearing about it in magazines like starlog and comic scene and thought of Sinead.

----------


## Miles To Go

> Who else thought Selina Kyle in Batman Year One by Frank Miller looks like Sinead O'Conner?


Yeah, nothing compares to it. :Stick Out Tongue: 

(I'll fetch my coat)

----------


## TomServofan

> Yeah, nothing compares to it.
> 
> (I'll fetch my coat)


Now that made me laugh.

----------


## SelinaK12

selina is going to be trying out her wedding dress in batman #44 and gonna be in a mother panic comic in april

----------


## WontonGirl

> selina is going to be trying out her wedding dress in batman #44 and gonna be in a mother panic comic in april


She's also going to be in Batman #45 as well.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

> Yeah, nothing compares to it.
> 
> (I'll fetch my coat)


Now that you mention it....

----------


## WontonGirl

$.jpg

MOTHER PANIC: GOTHAM A.D. #2
Written by JODY HOUSER
Art by IBRAHIM MOUSTAFA
Cover by TOMMY LEE EDWARDS

To rescue the person most important to her, Mother Panic needs to break into one of the most secure buildings in Collective-controlled Gotham City—Arkham Asylum. Will *Catwoman*, Gotham’s greatest thief, be willing to help her in her mission? And what has Poison Ivy done to Robinson Park to turn it into a soldier-eating nightmare?

On sale *APRIL 25* • 32 pg, FC • $3.99 US • MATURE READERS

----------


## godisawesome

Guys.

Seriously, go watch Gotham by Gaslight. Selina Kyle is freaking awesome in it!

----------


## WontonGirl

Hey guys, looks like Selina Kyle is in the all new issue of Gotham City Garage, Chapter 21! It's pretty cool if you really like her in her thief element  :Smile:  Out today in stores. 

RCO001_1516791352.jpg

----------


## Barbatos666

The Catwoman in this series is Mercy Graves, Selina is her pet cat.

----------


## WontonGirl

> The Catwoman in this series is Mercy Graves, Selina is her pet cat.


I know that. But it's based and stylized off of Catwoman and thus I was letting Catwoman fans know.

----------


## SelinaK12

Selian is getting a book called Under the moon: a catwoman tale by lauren myracle

----------


## K Nikk

> Selian is getting a book called Under the moon: a catwoman tale by lauren myracle


I think she will also be featured in the Batman: Gotham High book by Melissa de la Cruz.  The writer says on Twitter:  I'm sooooo excited for you all to meet my Bruce, Jack and Selina!

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think she will also be featured in the Batman: Gotham High book by Melissa de la Cruz.  The writer says on Twitter:  I'm sooooo excited for you all to meet my Bruce, Jack and Selina!


Who's Jack? Jack Napier?

----------


## K Nikk

> Who's Jack? Jack Napier?


That is my guess.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Who's Jack? Jack Napier?


Jack the Ripper? He was the Jack in the movie version.

----------


## K Nikk

> Jack the Ripper? He was the Jack in the movie version.


It's a YA graphic novel (13+) based on the characters of DC going to highschool together (I assume based on title), so I think that rules Jack the Ripper out.  She references a "Joker Laugh" later, so I'm just going with Jack is the regular name for her Joker character (whether specifically Napier or not, I don't know).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It's a YA graphic novel (13+) based on the characters of DC going to highschool together (I assume based on title), so I think that rules Jack the Ripper out.  She references a "Joker Laugh" later, so I'm just going with Jack is the regular name for her Joker character (whether specifically Napier or not, I don't know).


Oh, sorry.  For some reason I thought the discussion was about a novelized version of the Gotham by Gaslight movie.   Carry on.

----------


## K Nikk

> Oh, sorry.  For some reason I thought the discussion was about a novelized version of the Gotham by Gaslight movie.   Carry on.


I would be interested in a novelized version of Gotham by Gaslight!  In the style of Sherlock Holmes maybe with Alfred at times playing a pseudo Watson part.  Selina already reminds me of Irene Adler.  I would read fanfiction in that setting if we can't get anything official.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I would be interested in a novelized version of Gotham by Gaslight!  In the style of Sherlock Holmes maybe with Alfred at times playing a pseudo Watson part.  Selina already reminds me of Irene Adler.  I would read fanfiction in that setting if we can't get anything official.


There is already the novelized (well comic) of Gotham by Gaslight. 

There is also another Victorian Elseworld; Batman: Two Faces. Selina has a prominent role in that as well. Along with Alfred. It's an interesting read, lol!

----------


## WontonGirl

Actually, Catwoman has a lot of stuff coming up in the pipeline, also with DC Super Hero Girls, lots of Catwoman stuff! 

I will update the stuff later on today after work.

----------


## BBeeryan

The world needs more Selina Kyle! She's my absolute favorite character out of the bat-house.

----------


## DragonPiece

> The world needs more Selina Kyle! She's my absolute favorite character out of the bat-house.


Tom King has really made start to appreciate her more and check out more of her past stories, what are some of your favorite?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Tom King has really made start to appreciate her more and check out more of her past stories, what are some of your favorite?


For me, anything by Jeph Loeb! *When in Rome*, *HUSH* and I really liked Golden Age Catwoman  :Big Grin:

----------


## BBeeryan

> Tom King has really made start to appreciate her more and check out more of her past stories, what are some of your favorite?


I must admit that for all of my comic buying experience I've been strictly Marvel. Most of my exposure to Catwoman came through the Batman cartoons and the video games growing up. I can't hang with you guys that know the ins and outs of her comic history.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I must admit that for all of my comic buying experience I've been strictly Marvel. Most of my exposure to Catwoman came through the Batman cartoons and the video games growing up. I can't hang with you guys that know the ins and outs of her comic history.


Hey don't worry about it! I am a HUGE Mainstream Batman fan and comics fan, including Marvel. 

So what is your favorite Mainstream adaptation of her? You said you like the video games, are you playing Telltale right now?

----------


## WontonGirl

Guys remember, Catwoman will be in the upcoming *"Batman Ninja"* which drops April 24th on Digital and May 8 on Blu-ray/DVD! 

Batman-Ninja-post-1.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Catwoman pic with Nightwing, Alfred, NinjaBat & Red Robin for the upcoming anime *Batman Ninja* out on Digital on 4/24 and Blu-ray/DVD on 5/8: 

DV8BXjrUMAAUYRz.jpg

----------


## BBeeryan

> Hey don't worry about it! I am a HUGE Mainstream Batman fan and comics fan, including Marvel. 
> 
> So what is your favorite Mainstream adaptation of her? You said you like the video games, are you playing Telltale right now?


Oh, thanks for the warm welcome! I've always found something to like about her appearances in different animated series and video games. But my all time favorite adaptation of Queen Selina Kyle would have to be from Batman: Arkham City. I could play as her for hours. I felt that game got her down to a "T". And that only further solidified my love and passion for her character. She's forever etched a place in my heart.

Anyway, what's Telltale?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Tom King has really made start to appreciate her more and check out more of her past stories, what are some of your favorite?


Mine is Selina's Big Score.  It even had Slam Bradley in it, the original detective of Detective Comics, before that pointy eared guy took over the book.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Oh, thanks for the warm welcome! I've always found something to like about her appearances in different animated series and video games. But my all time favorite adaptation of Queen Selina Kyle would have to be from Batman: Arkham City. I could play as her for hours. I felt that game got her down to a "T". And that only further solidified my love and passion for her character. She's forever etched a place in my heart.
> 
> Anyway, what's Telltale?


If you love Queen Selina, then you need to be playing Telltales, both Seasons 1 and 2. 

http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Batman:...elltale_Series

Also just type Telltale Batman on YouTube for a search. The latest episode is out and the walkthrough and stories are all on YouTube as well. They are in* Season 2, Episode 4* is the latest.

----------


## SelinaK12

Screenshot (81).jpg

Under The Moon: A Catwoman Tale

----------


## SelinaK12

DWhrPWYXUAA7fOZ.jpgDWggkauUMAA7x0r.jpg

----------


## SelinaK12

DWgglBVVoAAM0C3.jpgDWgmP7PVwAE0Ptk.jpgDWgmQc_U8AEkJIT.jpg

----------


## K Nikk

> DWhrPWYXUAA7fOZ.jpgDWggkauUMAA7x0r.jpg


Selina is wearing pearls there.  Just a stylistic choice or....? hmm...

----------


## Frontier

> Selina is wearing pearls there.  Just a stylistic choice or....? hmm...


Huh. Just noticed that...

Although she wears them well  :Smile: .

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Selina is wearing pearls there.  Just a stylistic choice or....? hmm...


Probably stole them and decided to wear them for a while instead of stashing them in her loot bag.

----------


## K Nikk

> Probably stole them and decided to wear them for a while instead of stashing them in her loot bag.


I guess. Though pearls and batman are a thematic element. And this is a time travel arc... (I'm looking too far into it, but it's fun so I don't mind  :Smile: )

----------


## WontonGirl

> Probably stole them and decided to wear them for a while instead of stashing them in her loot bag.


For shame! LOL! 

Although, I have seen on a number of occasions, both in the books and in some mainstream, sometimes when she is with Bruce, she has pearls! Like at the end of TDKR, she is wearing some nice ones. I wonder in those instances, Bruce just gives her a set of pearls?

----------


## Sannom

> Selina is wearing pearls there.  Just a stylistic choice or....? hmm...


Didn't she wear pearls in that Adam Hughes illustration from a few years back? You know, the one with some of the most prominent DC ladies all dressed up?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> For shame! LOL! 
> 
> Although, I have seen on a number of occasions, both in the books and in some mainstream, sometimes when she is with Bruce, she has pearls! Like at the end of TDKR, she is wearing some nice ones. I wonder in those instances, Bruce just gives her a set of pearls?


In the movie The Dark Knight Rises it was pearls that Selina Kyle stole from Bruce Wayne toward the beginning of the movie when they first met.

----------


## K Nikk

> In the movie The Dark Knight Rises it was pearls that Selina Kyle stole from Bruce Wayne toward the beginning of the movie when they first met.


I didn't much like their chemistry in this movie, but that WAS a nice scene.  :Smile: 

I felt for sure that Selina wearing them at the end was because he chose to give them to her (that had been my memory) but I couldn't remember when he got them back after she stole them.  Doing a bit of research it turns out that the pearls are actually a bigger plot point than I realized (or atleast, theorized plot point).  He gets them back at the gala later on, and then at the end of the movie during the will reading there is a comment about a lost pearl necklace.  And apparently there is a comment earlier that there is a tracker in the necklace that he mentions TO Alfred "she took the pearls, tracking device and all".  So Bruce takes the necklace with him when he knows he might not come back, he gives it to Selina (which is itself a big deal), but it could also be the signal to Alfred that he is alive and how to find him when it turns up as missing in the manifest (we have her trace on the necklace). In the scene where they are talking about the trace Alfred even says "fascinating.  You two should exchange notes over coffee" to which Bruce replies "so now you're trying to set me up with a jewel thief".  And then Alfred talks about his yearly vacation to a café in Florence... so I guess he might not have traced them after all, still a cool theory. 


Anyways - pearl necklaces are a batman thing - but in this universe (if the annual is a part of it) he only has the one pearl left, but she is wearing a necklace.  May just be the artists aesthetic decision but it is a time travel arc, so not out of the question that there could be more meaning to it.  Fun to think about anyway.

----------


## Caivu

> Didn't she wear pearls in that Adam Hughes illustration from a few years back? You know, the one with some of the most prominent DC ladies all dressed up?


Surprisingly, no:

Screenshot_20180223-020029.jpg

----------


## Caivu

Might as well add this everywhere, yeah?  :Stick Out Tongue: 
Li'l Gotham collected edition cover by Dustin Nguyen:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> Might as well add this everywhere, yeah? 
> Li'l Gotham collected edition cover by Dustin Nguyen:
> 
> dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg


So are there going to be new stories in Lil Gotham for this edition? 

Also, did Bruce and Selina break up in Lil Gotham? I feel like I didn't see them together anymore after their trip. I know he took Damian to see his Mom and Grandfather but what happened with him and Selina?

----------


## Caivu

> So are there going to be new stories in Lil Gotham for this edition?


As far as I'm aware, no. This is just an omnibus.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I didn't much like their chemistry in this movie, but that WAS a nice scene. 
> 
> I felt for sure that Selina wearing them at the end was because he chose to give them to her (that had been my memory) but I couldn't remember when he got them back after she stole them.  Doing a bit of research it turns out that the pearls are actually a bigger plot point than I realized (or atleast, theorized plot point).  He gets them back at the gala later on, and then at the end of the movie during the will reading there is a comment about a lost pearl necklace.  And apparently there is a comment earlier that there is a tracker in the necklace that he mentions TO Alfred "she took the pearls, tracking device and all".  So Bruce takes the necklace with him when he knows he might not come back, he gives it to Selina (which is itself a big deal), but it could also be the signal to Alfred that he is alive and how to find him when it turns up as missing in the manifest (we have her trace on the necklace). In the scene where they are talking about the trace Alfred even says "fascinating.  You two should exchange notes over coffee" to which Bruce replies "so now you're trying to set me up with a jewel thief".  And then Alfred talks about his yearly vacation to a café in Florence... so I guess he might not have traced them after all, still a cool theory. 
> 
> 
> Anyways - pearl necklaces are a batman thing - but in this universe (if the annual is a part of it) he only has the one pearl left, but she is wearing a necklace.  May just be the artists aesthetic decision but it is a time travel arc, so not out of the question that there could be more meaning to it.  Fun to think about anyway.



Maybe giving Selina pearls is symbolic of him coming full circle and the pearls not being a symbol of death anymore but as they once were for his Mother, a token of affection.

----------


## WontonGirl

> As far as I'm aware, no. This is just an omnibus.


That's what I thought. But again did Bruce and Selina break up in Lil Gotham? Like around Issue #17? I feel like I didn't see them together anymore after their trip.

----------


## Caivu

> That's what I thought. But again did Bruce and Selina break up in Lil Gotham? Like around Issue #17? I feel like I didn't see them together anymore after their trip.


I glanced through up through issue #20 and didn't catch anything about a breakup.

----------


## WonderScott

Selina’s so not a pearls woman. She’s more like Elizabeth Taylor. Bring on the gems.  :Wink:

----------


## WontonGirl

> I glanced through up through issue #20 and didn't catch anything about a breakup.


I guess I have to re-read it again, I was confused because I felt like I didn't see them again together. And when Alfred was showing Damian the pictures, he didn't include Selina. So I guess I was just wondering. But that was also doing that time where Talia/Ra's were more present in various comics because of the introduction of Damian.

----------


## K Nikk

> I guess I have to re-read it again, I was confused because I felt like I didn't see them again together. And when Alfred was showing Damian the pictures, he didn't include Selina. So I guess I was just wondering. But that was also doing that time where Talia/Ra's were more present in various comics because of the introduction of Damian.


She was shown in a photo delivering gifts with Batman to the orphanage in the album.

----------


## Nick Miller

> Might as well add this everywhere, yeah? 
> Li'l Gotham collected edition cover by Dustin Nguyen:
> 
> dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg


Who is in the car? Jason?

----------


## K Nikk

> Who is in the car? Jason?


Aquaman.  It's filled with water like a fish bowl.

----------


## WontonGirl

> She was shown in a photo delivering gifts with Batman to the orphanage in the album.


Really? I need to read it again. Maybe Alfred didnt say anything?

----------


## nonsense man

I always like Selina when she is out of the batverse doing her thing as the queen of thieves that is why I am anti batcat the marriage would make things less interesting for both Bruce and Selina.  Also to be honest I think Bruce should marry someone who is in the good side so he will not complain about her job.  They may love each other but they will nitpick on things which will slowly burn out the love.  Bruce believes in justice and selina she might help from time to time but she is a generally a selfish person who only helps friends and family for the most part and is not really into the hero thing.  Funny that is how lois feels about clarks fighting crime thing  too but at least she has a job that does not go counter to him that is why their marriage is stable

----------


## nonsense man

All of selinas best stories are always without batman that is why I do not like the idea of a bat cat marriage for the most part

----------


## WontonGirl

> Bruce believes in justice and selina she might help from time to time but she is a generally a selfish person who only helps friends and family for the most part and is not really into the hero thing.


You're right, she is not really into the hero thing, that's what makes her an _Anti-Hero_. Anti-Heroes really don't want to be heroes but they end up being heroes anyway.

Selina has protected others in Gotham as well, especially the people like Women and Homeless Teens, etc. And I don't think she is as selfish as some people may say either. I mean, stealing diamonds and then throwing them off a roof or giving away trinkets to homeless people and less fortunate is not exactly a selfish person. And as far as Selina helping out her Family and Friends. Yes that's what a good person would do. A selfish person wouldn't. And she helps Batman when he needs it, whether it's to take down some local crooks OR to help him with some BIG event or supervillain. And she extends that help to other Batfamily members who need her as well. And THAT is something she has been doing for decades. 

As far as the pairing, I won't speak on that BUT I will say that I don't think a normal woman could hack it long term in Bruce's world. Even if they know his secret. He needs somebody that's more "in the game". Even my girl Silver St. Cloud, who I adored him with, couldn't hack it too long, and she tried but it's just not going to work.

----------


## WontonGirl

> All of selinas best stories are always without batman that is why I do not like the idea of a bat cat marriage for the most part


And this is the Catwoman Appreciation Thread so feel free to talk about Selina Kyle or Catwoman as much as you want!  :Embarrassment:  

Post your favorite Catwoman story as well! Any new Catwoman stuff that's coming up, we like to update it here!  :Big Grin:

----------


## CryNotWolf

> I always like Selina when she is out of the batverse doing her thing as the queen of thieves that is why I am anti batcat the marriage would make things less interesting for both Bruce and Selina.  Also to be honest I think Bruce should marry someone who is in the good side so he will not complain about her job.  They may love each other but they will nitpick on things which will slowly burn out the love.  Bruce believes in justice and selina she might help from time to time but she is a generally a selfish person who only helps friends and family for the most part and is not really into the hero thing.  Funny that is how lois feels about clarks fighting crime thing  too but at least she has a job that does not go counter to him that is why their marriage is stable


Not true. She's shown many times that she's ready and willing to help people in need, especially orphans and working girls.




> All of selinas best stories are always without batman that is why I do not like the idea of a bat cat marriage for the most part


First of all, I highly disagree. Second, just because she has good stories that don't involve Batman doesn't mean that's it's somehow a valid argument against her getting married. All that proves is that she's a good character that can stand on her own.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Not true. She's shown many times that she's ready and willing to help people in need, especially orphans and working girls.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, I highly disagree. Second, just because she has good stories that don't involve Batman doesn't mean that's it's somehow a valid argument against her getting married. All that proves is that she's a good character that can stand on her own.


I agree with ALL of this. I just chalked it up to people liking Catwoman differently.

----------


## Caivu

By Minkyu Jung:

Screenshot_20180304-101448.jpg

Don't tie her up, Selina! She's into that!

----------


## Assam

> Don't tie her up, Selina! She's into that!


It's canon that Kate is into BDSM?

----------


## Caivu

> It's canon that Kate is into BDSM?


Her current series made it clear she's definitely into bondage of some sort. There have been prior hints that she's rather rough, as well.

----------


## Punisher007

Her love scene with Maggie in Williams III's run was, wow!  You know if Selina wasn't engaged right now, her and Kate might a cool "casual" pairing for awhile come to think of it.

----------


## Caivu

> Her love scene with Maggie in Williams III's run was, wow!  You know if Selina wasn't engaged right now, her and Kate might a cool "casual" pairing for awhile come to think of it.


A few issues after that first time, they had another session off-panel that happened basically on every surface in Kate's apartment.

And yeah, they wouldn't make for a good actual couple,  but a fling? Sure.

----------


## Punisher007

More like a casual "colleagues with benefits" type of deal.

----------


## gooch4011

I personally love the Bat Cat engagement. Their banter with one another gives me a good chuckle.

----------


## gooch4011

> By Minkyu Jung:
> 
> Attachment 62917
> 
> Don't tie her up, Selina! She's into that!


oh_my.jpg


Sorry I'm a noob and it took a minute to this this worked out lol

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Batman 44 Cover

----------


## Diammandis

> Batman 44 Cover


Oh wow that is gorgeous, it is veryy detailed i love it tbh

----------


## WontonGirl

> Batman 44 Cover


Is this the cover? I was thinking this was just an actual page in the issue. Because there is also a pic of Bruce looking at his Batman reflection in the mirror floating around on Twitter. 

Nevertheless, Selina looks great. And peep the Diamond Cat Ears  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Godlike13

Gorgeous  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Diammandis

Here are the unused designs of the dress

----------


## Frontier

> Batman 44 Cover


That is absolutely the perfect Wedding Dress for Selina  :Big Grin: .

I wonder if she'll go with the ears or not  :Wink: ?

----------


## Diammandis

> That is absolutely the perfect Wedding Dress for Selina .
> 
> I wonder if she'll go with the ears or not ?


Looks like she will be going with them

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Batman 44 Cover


That dress is amazing and so detailed. I also love the cat ears.

----------


## gooch4011

I'm more interested in this wedding more than I'll ever be about some Royal wedding. 

batman-wedding-suit.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Looks like she will be going with them


Joelle Jones' Selina is simply stunning. She was born to draw Catwoman  :Big Grin: .

----------


## K Nikk

Wow these dresses are gorgeous.  I love this idea for the cover of both characters looking into the mirror and seeing their alter-ego persona reflected.  JOelle's golden age Catwoman drawings have been gorgeous.  Good call to have the art being done by two different artists.  These are supposed to be separate but parallel storylines and the difference in style that will result from Joelle drawing Selina's storyline and Janin drawing Bruce's storyline will really make that apparent.  I wonder who made that decision.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Wow these dresses are gorgeous.  I love this idea for the cover of both characters looking into the mirror and seeing their alter-ego persona reflected.  JOelle's golden age Catwoman drawings have been gorgeous.  Good call to have the art being done by two different artists.  These are supposed to be separate but parallel storylines and the difference in style that will result from Joelle drawing Selina's storyline and Janin drawing Bruce's storyline will really make that apparent.  I wonder who made that decision.


I don't know but it was a very good decision on their part whoever they are.

----------


## Katana500

Who do we think will go dress shopping with Selina! Since im asuming most woman dont go on their own!

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> Here are the unused designs of the dress


All very beautiful.  They picked the right one for the final design.  Its just so Selina.

----------


## K Nikk

> Who do we think will go dress shopping with Selina! Since im asuming most woman dont go on their own!


I've been really hoping that it's Lois.  I feel like she may be able to more safely do that in Metropolis rather than Gotham considering her still "on the run" status (and because Lois offered!).  Lois feels like one of the first female acquaintances where she doesn't really have to look out for/feel responsible for/restrain.  That could be a really interesting and rewarding relationship.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I've been really hoping that it's Lois.  I feel like she may be able to more safely do that in Metropolis rather than Gotham considering her still "on the run" status (and because Lois offered!).  Lois feels like one of the first female acquaintances where she doesn't really have to look out for/feel responsible for/restrain.  That could be a really interesting and rewarding relationship.


I'd love for it to be Lois myself. They seemed to get on so well on that double date and I think it would be a perfect way to explore their relationship a bit more as well.

----------


## K Nikk

> I'd love for it to be Lois myself. They seemed to get on so well on that double date and I think it would be a perfect way to explore their relationship a bit more as well.


Lois:  "Selina, you can pick locks right?  Cause I need to get into a place and pretty sure Smallville would faint if I suggest it".
Selina:  "Meow! (grin).  I do want to stay in practice"

Lois:  "Selina, you're good at fake ID's and getting onto guest lists right?  'Cause Luthor is throwing a gala here and I'm definitely persona-non-grata, but I gotta get in there.  Care to join me?"
Selina:  "Oh I have a few that would work purrrfectly.  How's your Italian?"

Lois:  "Batmobile?"
Selina:  "Of course!  Did you know it has a backseat?*  Up, up and away?"
Lois:  "it's 'heavenly'.  Batcave?"
Selina:  "Do you even have to ask?"
*Li'l Gotham reference!!  :Big Grin: 

[Exaggerated cat speech is for fun only.  I do not need the real Selina Kyle to be making cat puns (but secretly hopes it pops out now and then as a left over from the golden age!).

----------


## WontonGirl

> I've been really hoping that it's Lois.  I feel like she may be able to more safely do that in Metropolis rather than Gotham considering her still "on the run" status (and because Lois offered!).  Lois feels like one of the first female acquaintances where she doesn't really have to look out for/feel responsible for/restrain.  That could be a really interesting and rewarding relationship.


Lois seems like a good choice but I think Selina would go by herself as well. I mean, if she is getting married to BRUCE WAYNE, I'm sure that there would be all of those fancy professional dressers there helping her.

----------


## nonsense man

I admit Selina looks great in her wedding gown but I still feel this will not last.  I always seen the bat/cat relationship exactly the same as the Lupin the 3rd/ Fujiko Mine dynamic flirting kissing some sexual activity but never going to the serious level because of their work and trust issues the same could be said for lupin and fujiko as well.  They expect to betray each other not in a serious way but still expected the same goes for bat/cat.  I wish they did a lupin/batman crossover with their respected off and on girlfriends who stabs their beaus in the back many times in fujiko and Selina.  I think that is how most people see the relationship in a nutshell

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Who do we think will go dress shopping with Selina! Since im asuming most woman dont go on their own!


Well Selina isn't "most women".

----------


## Caivu

> Who do we think will go dress shopping with Selina! Since im asuming most woman dont go on their own!


Pfft. Like Selina's going to _buy_ her dress.

----------


## Starrius

> I admit Selina looks great in her wedding gown but I still feel this will not last.  I always seen the bat/cat relationship exactly the same as the Lupin the 3rd/ Fujiko Mine dynamic flirting kissing some sexual activity but never going to the serious level because of their work and trust issues the same could be said for lupin and fujiko as well.  They expect to betray each other not in a serious way but still expected the same goes for bat/cat.  I wish they did a lupin/batman crossover with their respected off and on girlfriends who stabs their beaus in the back many times in fujiko and Selina.  I think that is how most people see the relationship in a nutshell


shrugs
that was then
this is now

----------


## kurenai24

> I admit Selina looks great in her wedding gown but I still feel this will not last.  I always seen the bat/cat relationship exactly the same as the Lupin the 3rd/ Fujiko Mine dynamic flirting kissing some sexual activity but never going to the serious level because of their work and trust issues the same could be said for lupin and fujiko as well.  They expect to betray each other not in a serious way but still expected the same goes for bat/cat.  I wish they did a lupin/batman crossover with their respected off and on girlfriends who stabs their beaus in the back many times in fujiko and Selina.  I think that is how most people see the relationship in a nutshell


You won't get anybody from this thread agreeing on or even understanding this perspective, this is a Catwoman thread for all fans but it's filled with individuals who all agree on the same thing at least with the direction the character is taking right now and is actually fine with her main purpose being a love interest ...whether that's b/c they're happy a writer is finally doing something of note with the character, actually believes a writer is giving her the storyline she "deserves" or both who knows.

To be honest all Batman characters have fans like this ...at least on this board, they all seemingly agree with each other on their fave and the direction they need to take, obviously you'll see differing perspectives every now and then but the only bat character whose fans have major dissenting opinions are Batman fans ...major being the keyword here.

So your posts are gonna seem like taking to a void and you may or may not be argued down like your opinion is wrong or not even necessary to voice.

----------


## dietrich

> Who do we think will go dress shopping with Selina! Since im asuming most woman dont go on their own!


Well since the world knows that Selina is Catwoman and Catwoman is a known thief who's wanted for mass murder doubtful she'll be able to go dress shopping or that shop's will even let her enter. Shop lifters are usually banned from shops and she is a known thief.

She'll have to go online. Amazon a frock.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Batman 44 Cover


Is that Joelle Jones?  She is simply amazing as an artist.  I would love for her to do a Catwoman series, although I have to wonder...with Selina marrying Bruce, does that limit her viability as a solo character and reduce her to second billing in his books only?  I love that DC and specifically King is really getting into using her character, but I do like Selina as a solo star (when done right.)

----------


## K Nikk

> Is that Joelle Jones?  She is simply amazing as an artist.  I would love for her to do a Catwoman series, although I have to wonder...with Selina marrying Bruce, does that limit her viability as a solo character and reduce her to second billing in his books only?  I love that DC and specifically King is really getting into using her character, but I do like Selina as a solo star (when done right.)


Why should it?  If the men in these relationships can have their own solo series (and multiple team series) while married no reason the women can't too. It may mean that bat family characters would appear more frequently in her books, but I see no issue with that. I'm hopeful it would mean the writers tone down the self-destructiveness that seems to be a well they go to when she is isolated.  I kind of like the idea of her expertise being requested more frequently by other heros, or other actual adventure plots that can develop when it's not focussing inwards so much. Which of her solo series/stories did you like the best that you think could not work if she is married?

Yes the dress is Joelle Jones drawing.

Edit:  I was thinking about this a little more.  Lois Lane is another character who should get a solo and I don't think being married should prevent that, and being a side character in the Superman series certainly isn't enough for the character.  I also think the beginnings of a relationship between Selina and Lois could establish each others as re-occurring supporting cast. Being able to pick Catwoman's brains for her past connections would have to be a gold mine for her, and getting used to married life with a Justice League member as their significant other is something they both can relate on (Heck, Steve could show up too.  He has a connection with Catwoman through JLA, correct?).  There will be people who put down stories like this, but I personally would like to see the perspective.

----------


## K Nikk

> Well since the world knows that Selina is Catwoman and Catwoman is a known thief who's wanted for mass murder doubtful she'll be able to go dress shopping or that shop's will even let her enter. Shop lifters are usually banned from shops and she is a known thief.
> 
> She'll have to go online. Amazon a frock.


Dressmakers will be throwing their dresses at her for the publicity they would get for being chosen. Heck, catwoman is known for only stealing the best quality anything they might prefer the steal as a mark of her very special type of endorsement. lol. "No really, I have the money to buy it!"  Lol.

----------


## dietrich

> Dressmakers will be throwing their dresses at her for the publicity they would get for being chosen. Heck, catwoman is known for only stealing the best quality anything they might prefer the steal as a mark of her very special type of endorsement. lol. "No really, I have the money to buy it!"  Lol.


You might be right and she's even more notorious now that she's also a mass murderer. Everyone will be dying to know who she's wearing. Add that she has villains like Ivy [and possibly Harley] as part of her bridal party. Who doesn't want that kind of publicity and association.

You are right it's a special kind of endorsement.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Why should it?  If the men in these relationships can have their own solo series (and multiple team series) while married no reason the women can't too. It may mean that bat family characters would appear more frequently in her books, but I see no issue with that. I'm hopeful it would mean the writers tone down the self-destructiveness that seems to be a well they go to when she is isolated.  I kind of like the idea of her expertise being requested more frequently by other heros, or other actual adventure plots that can develop when it's not focussing inwards so much. Which of her solo series/stories did you like the best that you think could not work if she is married?
> 
> Yes the dress is Joelle Jones drawing.
> 
> Edit:  I was thinking about this a little more.  Lois Lane is another character who should get a solo and I don't think being married should prevent that, and being a side character in the Superman series certainly isn't enough for the character.  I also think the beginnings of a relationship between Selina and Lois could establish each others as re-occurring supporting cast. Being able to pick Catwoman's brains for her past connections would have to be a gold mine for her, and getting used to married life with a Justice League member as their significant other is something they both can relate on (Heck, Steve could show up too.  He has a connection with Catwoman through JLA, correct?).  There will be people who put down stories like this, but I personally would like to see the perspective.


I totally agree with you and have been clamoring for a Lois Lane series for years (which we might be about to get at least a mini series if rumors are true.)  I would just hope writers wouldn't forget she is a whole character on her own without Batman/Bruce Wayne and still write her as such.

----------


## K Nikk

> You might be right and she's even more notorious now that she's also a mass murderer. Everyone will be dying to know who she's wearing. Add that she has villains like Ivy [and possibly Harley] as part of her bridal party. Who doesn't want that kind of publicity and association.
> 
> You are right it's a special kind of endorsement.


I get that you're being sarcastic and maybe trying to make fun of me?  This is an appreciation thread, and i'm trying to see the positives.  She doesn't always get the happiest or most respectful of stories.

----------


## K Nikk

> I totally agree with you and have been clamoring for a Lois Lane series for years (which we might be about to get at least a mini series if rumors are true.)  I would just hope writers wouldn't forget she is a whole character on her own without Batman/Bruce Wayne and still write her as such.


I'm sure they will. Just now when they do have interactions it won't be the old song and dance.  I would like to see her go more freelance though, and less neighbourhood protector.  I kind of like this thread about testing others that was woven in the annual and also in the new talent spotlight (in the Jason and Duke story) - she tests them so that they'll get better - so that they'll live.  I wonder how that could be dug in to.  In fact, she had this even with training Holly and in past years with training others who come under her wing, although she has gone about it the wrong way because they weren't ready for the responsibility/danger (?).  So maybe instead of training, it is TESTING these people who she wants to survive, that helps them either survive by getting better, or survive by realizing they are in over their head.  The difference being that they learn by falling for her traps, or failing at a task, and they have to work it out themselves, and if they can't maybe it's not meant to be.  I'm not wording this well, I'm sort of grasping at the concept a little.  Catwoman was the best when she could have fun, and being able to set traps or get through traps as a way of testing others could allow her to be fun again in a similar way but with the end goal of the greater good. Like hackers going legit by being paid to reveal gaps in a system's protections. 

I'm also wishing that Joelle Jones could write a golden age Catwoman comic, based on some of her golden age Catwoman drawings.  Cat-themed crimes, fun and flirtatious banter.  Those stories can't be done now with how cruel the comic world is (if she is distracting the police or batman, or others, then maybe someone else is getting away with something worse than stealing a few gems or artifacts.  It becomes selfish at that point) but set as a period piece when comics were much lighter.  Similar to the Batman 66 I guess in that it is a period piece, but in Joelle's golden age catwoman drawing aesthetic. Maybe a short little 6 issue mini.

----------


## dietrich

> I get that you're being sarcastic and maybe trying to make fun of me?  This is an appreciation thread, and i'm trying to see the positives.  She doesn't always get the happiest or most respectful of stories.


Funny you think I'm been sarcastic when all I'm dong is agreeing and building on your point.
If it sounds suspect then maybe it's because the point was dubious to start with [personally I doubt anyone want's to be endorsed by a thief no matter how great her taste is ]
I was merely trying to get into the spirit of this thread.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

King teasing more upcoming Catwoman appearances:


She seems to be wearing something based on this outfit:

----------


## K Nikk

> King teasing more upcoming Catwoman appearances:
> 
> 
> She seems to be wearing something based on this outfit:


It's actually a scene from 256!  They must be revisiting old memories.

----------


## Miles To Go

*Batman/Catwoman: The Wedding Album* hardcover solicited for September release


http://www.penguinrandomhouseretail....=9781401286538

----------


## Katana500

> *Batman/Catwoman: The Wedding Album* hardcover solicited for September release
> 
> 
> http://www.penguinrandomhouseretail....=9781401286538


This is good news! This is very good news!!! It may happen! It may actually happen!

----------


## Starrius

I wish Catwoman would go back to wearing a purple costume and long hair.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I wish Catwoman would go back to wearing a purple costume and long hair.


And bring back the green cape. If Batman can do acrobatic stuff  and skulk around in the dark wearing a cape, so can Catwoman. Edna shouldn't be the one to dictate superhero fashions.

----------


## WontonGirl

Hey all! Here is the link for the Catwoman inspiration bio for the Kickstarter campaign for the new Batman Gotham City Chronicles game....

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/2137614

Her design is based off the Tim Sale Catwoman  :Big Grin:

----------


## WontonGirl

> I admit Selina looks great in her wedding gown but I still feel this will not last.  I always seen the bat/cat relationship exactly the same as the Lupin the 3rd/ Fujiko Mine dynamic flirting kissing some sexual activity but never going to the serious level because of their work and trust issues the same could be said for lupin and fujiko as well.  They expect to betray each other not in a serious way but still expected the same goes for bat/cat.  I wish they did a lupin/batman crossover with their respected off and on girlfriends who stabs their beaus in the back many times in fujiko and Selina.  I think that is how most people see the relationship in a nutshell


I don't think they expect that they will betray each other. If anything, she is one of the people he trusts the most. And she is in his inner circle. I mean, I get it, some fans may feel that way but I just don't think they have the severe trust issues that some Batman fans think. And I too am a Batman fan as well. I mean, he has had issues with all of his Robins and it still worked out. 

But to each his own.  :Big Grin:

----------


## WontonGirl

> You won't get anybody from this thread agreeing on or even understanding this perspective, this is a Catwoman thread for all fans but it's filled with individuals who all agree on the same thing at least with the direction the character is taking right now and is actually fine with her main purpose being a love interest ...whether that's b/c they're happy a writer is finally doing something of note with the character, actually believes a writer is giving her the storyline she "deserves" or both who knows.
> 
> To be honest all Batman characters have fans like this ...at least on this board, they all seemingly agree with each other on their fave and the direction they need to take, obviously you'll see differing perspectives every now and then but the only bat character whose fans have major dissenting opinions are Batman fans ...major being the keyword here.
> 
> So your posts are gonna seem like taking to a void and you may or may not be argued down like your opinion is wrong or not even necessary to voice.


I think all Catwoman posts and opinions are posted here. The key word here is actually, "appreciation". If you are on an appreciation thread for ANY character, I would think there would be more posts that are appreciative of the character. 

If Catwoman fans want to post that have a slightly different take on the character, then post! Discussions are always welcomed. There are plenty of fans that like her just as a thief, that like her not as a thief, that like her in the middle, etc. 

I mean for some, they look at it as "Batman fell in love with a thief, but she's not evil and she helps him out". And most folks are cool with that. Been that way for decades. Bat and Cat isn't something that just started after 2014.

----------


## nonsense man

I enjoy bruce and selina both I not only oppose the marriage because even though they love each other one and the other would screw it up.  But look at what happened when they were married on earth two both were sidelined.  Heck the married Kal-l and Lois lane of that continuity had more adventures written about them than bruce or selina.  Maybe that is why lois and clark works as a married couple even in the current rebirth continuity writers know how to write a married lois lane and superman than batman or catwoman. Some characters can be written well together Others can not.  IF they had proven back in the day to write adventures of a married bruce and selina then I would have confidence in it.  But they did not.  They made him a police commisioner who only solved a couple of cases on panel on precrisis earth two and they showed less of selina until they decided to kill her in that reality.  Maybe  had they made them a mystery solving couple like those in the thin man movies or one of my favorite tv shows from the 80's about a rich crime solving married couple in hart to hart I might have confidence that they would write a good bruce and selina married life but I do not.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I enjoy bruce and selina both I not only oppose the marriage because even though they love each other one and the other would screw it up.  But look at what happened when they were married on earth two both were sidelined.  Heck the married Kal-l and Lois lane of that continuity had more adventures written about them than bruce or selina.  Maybe that is why lois and clark works as a married couple even in the current rebirth continuity writers know how to write a married lois lane and superman than batman or catwoman. Some characters can be written well together Others can not.  IF they had proven back in the day to write adventures of a married bruce and selina then I would have confidence in it.  But they did not.  They made him a police commisioner who only solved a couple of cases on panel on precrisis earth two and they showed less of selina until they decided to kill her in that reality.  Maybe  had they made them a mystery solving couple like those in the thin man movies or one of my favorite tv shows from the 80's about a rich crime solving married couple in hart to hart I might have confidence that they would write a good bruce and selina married life but I do not.


As I recall the only purpose of the Earth 2 Bruce and Selina getting married was to introduce Helena Kyle and killing Selina was to give Helena a motivation.  I don't think this time it is to introduce a new character
that is their child, so you really can't compare the fate of this Selina to the fate of the Earth 2 Selina.

----------


## Agent Z

> I enjoy bruce and selina both I not only oppose the marriage because even though they love each other one and the other would screw it up.  But look at what happened when they were married on earth two both were sidelined.  Heck the married Kal-l and Lois lane of that continuity had more adventures written about them than bruce or selina.  Maybe that is why lois and clark works as a married couple even in the current rebirth continuity writers know how to write a married lois lane and superman than batman or catwoman. Some characters can be written well together Others can not.  IF they had proven back in the day to write adventures of a married bruce and selina then I would have confidence in it.  But they did not.  They made him a police commisioner who only solved a couple of cases on panel on precrisis earth two and they showed less of selina until they decided to kill her in that reality.  Maybe  had they made them a mystery solving couple like those in the thin man movies or one of my favorite tv shows from the 80's about a rich crime solving married couple in hart to hart I might have confidence that they would write a good bruce and selina married life but I do not.


Earth 2 was decades ago and this relationship isn't being written the same writers. Also, the reason they got sidelined was due to Helena Wayne who doesn't exist in this universe.

----------


## adrikito

Is about Selina and Damian(catboy here):

https://twitter.com/Lizzie_Brayson/s...54441960783872

----------


## K Nikk

> Is about Selina and Damian(catboy here):
> 
> https://twitter.com/Lizzie_Brayson/s...54441960783872


Have Selina and Damian bonded over cats yet at all?  I think I've seen an image where he found her missing cat, but it was just in an image search and don't know if it was an out of canon story  (or terrific fan art!)

----------


## WontonGirl

Hey guys, Catwoman is getting a new collectors figure from Mezco Toys...

https://nerdist.com/catwoman-collect...oys-dc-comics/

Here is an example: 

4598.jpg

There are tons of pics on the link too!

----------


## dietrich

> Have Selina and Damian bonded over cats yet at all?  I think I've seen an image where he found her missing cat, but it was just in an image search and don't know if it was an out of canon story  (or terrific fan art!)


It is an out of canon story.
The only interaction Selina and Damian have ever had in current canon is Selina bragging to her distraught soon to be stepson that she stabbed his mother

----------


## dietrich

> Is about Selina and Damian(catboy here):
> 
> https://twitter.com/Lizzie_Brayson/s...54441960783872


Isn't Tim Drake Catboy/lad. Let's leave Damian out of this thank you

----------


## K Nikk

> It is an out of canon story.
> The only interaction Selina and Damian have ever had in current canon is Selina bragging to her distraught soon to be stepson that she stabbed his mother


She gave a factual statement. He seems like a kid who doesn't need or appreciate sugar coating of the truth. "She stabbed your dad in the back. I stabbed her in the back".

----------


## adrikito

I heard that Selina birthday was the 14 of March:

https://twitter.com/geniusofevil/sta...35640575672321

----------


## K Nikk

> I heard that Selina birthday was the 14 of March:
> 
> https://twitter.com/geniusofevil/sta...35640575672321


Yup!   There is a great batfamily post where the batkids dress up batman as a cat (complete with bell collar)  for Selina's birthday "happy birthday catmom". It's cute. 
https://twitter.com/Picmurasaki/stat...83273457147904

I know you like Damian, I came across this image on tumblr.  With the way things are going, and considering Damian got along pretty well with Earth 2 Helena, maybe we will get a baby Helena Wayne down the line and a future team up ... 
http://mandyleart.tumblr.com/post/15...th-baby-helena

----------


## adrikito

> King teasing more upcoming Catwoman appearances:
> 
> 
> She seems to be wearing something based on this outfit:


I remember that costume... Like Plastic Man here(Min 1:37):




I didn´t recognize her(until plastic man said catwoman) in this chapter, when I saw the serie..

----------


## adrikito

> Yup!   There is a great batfamily post where the batkids dress up batman as a cat (complete with bell collar)  for Selina's birthday "happy birthday catmom". It's cute. 
> https://twitter.com/Picmurasaki/stat...83273457147904
> 
> I know you like Damian, I came across this image on tumblr.  With the way things are going, and considering Damian got along pretty well with Earth 2 Helena, maybe we will get a baby Helena Wayne down the line and a future team up ... 
> http://mandyleart.tumblr.com/post/15...th-baby-helena


I saw the first image, but was too small and I never see the image with details.... I was busy in that moment and I closed my PC.. THANKS..

About Damian and Helena:

Screen Shot 152.jpg

HAHAHAHAHA... Very Funny..

----------


## DragonPiece

Y'know, I really hope we get good Damian and Selina moments in one of the upcoming comics. DC has no plans to redeem Talia, so it'd be nice for him to get a step mom that actually cares about him.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Y'know, I really hope we get good Damian and Selina moments in one of the upcoming comics. DC has no plans to redeem Talia, so it'd be nice for him to get a step mom that actually cares about him.


I would like to see this too. I mean, just because they haven't had a relationship in the past doesn't mean they can't have stories where some kind of relationship or association develops between them. Perhaps King may not be the person to do it but it can happen. 

As for Talia, well her redemption focus should be with Damian.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I heard that Selina birthday was the 14 of March:
> 
> https://twitter.com/geniusofevil/sta...35640575672321


*Adrikito*, have you seen this? I thought it was cute. 

Catmom.jpg

----------


## nonsense man

Bruce and Selina have to many similar skill sets which would make the action boring.  That is one of the main reasons superman wonderwoman did not work out their skills over lap and do not compliment the same is true for selina and bruce.  Also they nuetered dianas personality too.  I am afraid they will do that to bruce as well because tom king is more of catwoman fan that is okay but I am a batman fan too and if they do that people will turn on this ship because of that more than they are now by nuetering bruce.  But people say what about the robins and batgirl he trained them he is their teacher even if they have disagreements on ways now that is the reason I do not mind the batfamily but they mostly left the coop excluding daimain because he is his son.  The action scenes might work if they turn selina into a were cat imagine her using her house cat form skulking around or her hybrid form which is stronger more agile and you can add those people who like furries to seem to find it quite alluring and her normal form as well.  I think anti bat/cat shippers will accept that because they will not need to nueter bruce mentally after those changes which will compliment each other again this relationship between bruce and selina.  That is why lois and clark works and superman wonderwoman does not.  You can say that will occur to bat/cat too if they do not go out of the box to change something to compliment more by not changing eithers core personalites in this marriage.

----------


## dietrich

> Y'know, I really hope we get good Damian and Selina moments in one of the upcoming comics. DC has no plans to redeem Talia, so it'd be nice for him to get a step mom that actually cares about him.


Talia is currently in super sons redemption or not I'd rather DC give us more mother and son. Selina and Damian doesn't gel their one interaction was awful.

----------


## nonsense man

My reasons are they are both to headstrong and they argue at times about each others values which makes it more difficult for them to stay together.  So king will nueter batman personality wise to make the marriage work and people will be angry about that and like I wrote it will be similar to superman and wonderwoman the scenes will be to boring.  Maybe for an issue or two a year it would not matter but it was constant them being together then people will get bored because of the overlapping skill sets as well.  That is what happened to the two bricks the same will happen to the two sneaks bruce and selena that is probably the main reason besides being different in their approaches to life they do not write them together much.  You can add the robins to bruce because they are his students sometime rebellious but they respect him.  With selina she is an equal in combat and stealth that is why it is harder to write then to gether.  They are equals not student teacher like the others and that is why it is hard to write them together

----------


## WontonGirl

> My reasons are they are both to headstrong and they argue at times about each others values which makes it more difficult for them to stay together.  So king will nueter batman personality wise to make the marriage work and people will be angry about that and like I wrote it will be similar to superman and wonderwoman the scenes will be to boring.  Maybe for an issue or two a year it would not matter but it was constant them being together then people will get bored because of the overlapping skill sets as well.  That is what happened to the two bricks the same will happen to the two sneaks bruce and selena that is probably the main reason besides being different in their approaches to life they do not write them together much.  You can add the robins to bruce because they are his students sometime rebellious but they respect him.  With selina she is an equal in combat and stealth that is why it is harder to write then to gether.  They are equals not student teacher like the others and that is why it is hard to write them together


Well we shall see. I think part of the reason why people don't write them as romantic love interests that actually last is because a lot of writers go in with the idea of "this won't work anyway". 

So if there is a writer that wants to try to say, "no, maybe they can" then let them I say. If it works, great. If it doesn't, then oh well. 

And Bruce and Selina have been together before in stories. A lot of the AU and Elseworld tales have them being together in love and working out just fine with each other, even working together. So it can happen.

----------


## nonsense man

They should retcon that selina is a spy instead of a thief working for some agency whether it is DEO or ARGUS or the CIA like castiel posted.  It would make sense all her supposed crimes would be covered up or unsolved because she is doing the wrong things for the right reasons do it from the start before they even meet in story.  That would actually take away the smiliarity aspects selina knows the world is corrupt sometimes you have to play ball with tptb. Well it will show that Bruce trully is idealistic and believes in true justice that is why he is not part of any government agency he does not compromise.  He knows they let out the guilty at times to get bigger fish or they make payoffs to the politicos to get out.  Maybe the joker is just let loose to cause choas for more restrictions on freedom.  Maybe that is what story with the watchmen is about and will add that type of thinking in the dcu once it is done.  They could add this retcon to the batman mythos and I think most people will like it.  IT will not change much except that selina has favors she could cash in if bruce really does something that will piss of some government the US or otherwise because he doesnt compromise in his belief in true justice.  Will explain why catwoman wanted to be caught by the batman in first place to study him for the job and the villians as well.  The only person who knows the truth about catwoman would be talia because they probably had a run in before she was catwoman and she survived it maybe that and being a bit catty is the reason she chose that moniker and other things as well.  Could be the reason waller does not go after him a favor for a former or current asset like catwoman.  Could work for sam lane to and sam takes her sass because it reminds him in a way of his daughter lois.  Hell it would probably make the dc you spyverse a shot in the arm it needs to have their own version of black widow which would be cool.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Myself I prefer a Selina that is a free spirit and just does what she does for the joy and adventure of it rather than being beholden to an external  force.  We already have Supergirl if we want a character
that is a secret government agent.

----------


## nonsense man

In real life most intelligence agents are made up of either patriots thieves liars killers or the truly traitorous so being a free spirit as a spy is a must.  Supergirl is to honest for that type of work especially the tv show version you are refering but it is okay for her adopted sister.  Tom King should know that maybe that will be the surprise instead of the bat/cat wedding.

----------


## WontonGirl

> In real life most intelligence agents are made up of either patriots thieves liars killers or the truly traitorous so being a free spirit as a spy is a must.  Supergirl is to honest for that type of work especially the tv show version you are refering but it is okay for her adopted sister.  Tom King should know that maybe that will be the surprise instead of the bat/cat wedding.


In real life, most intelligence agents are NOT made up of thieves, liars or killers.

----------


## Starrius

> And bring back the green cape. If Batman can do acrobatic stuff  and skulk around in the dark wearing a cape, so can Catwoman. Edna shouldn't be the one to dictate superhero fashions.


I like the costume from the Balent era.
i don't want a green cape with it.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> In real life most intelligence agents are made up of either patriots thieves liars killers or the truly traitorous so being a free spirit as a spy is a must.  Supergirl is to honest for that type of work especially the tv show version you are refering but it is okay for her adopted sister.  Tom King should know that maybe that will be the surprise instead of the bat/cat wedding.


There would have had to have been some sort of hints from the past.  It's not something that can just pop up out of the blue. That would be too contrived.  
(Supergirl also works with the DEO in the comic books now, and she doesn't have a sister there.)

----------


## Miles To Go

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...d-jimenez.html

----------


## nonsense man

You made my point they just added that subplot to supergirl and no one complained or batted an eyelash.  Maybe but if they ever reboot the universe again as they will do sooner or later they could add that to make things more interesting

----------


## WonderScott

I'm liking the idea of Bruce and Selina each conceding small bits of themselves over time to come closer together as a couple. It's been a breath of fresh air to see it play out and what comes up instead of decades of "will they or won't they?" I'm thankful King is exploring their natures in such a way. They both have their idiosyncrasies that will come up and it'll be interesting to see what kind of marital conflicts that'll bring up over time. 

I don't see them as being too similar together to be boring, or having to make and massive changes to their characters. (I mean if that were the case we'd have to change Batman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Batgirl, Red Robin, Robin, Red Hood, Batwoman, Huntress, Flamebird, etc. to make them interesting, because all these characters have similarities on the surface and are different takes on similar themes.) 

Bruce and Selina's personalities are very different, but they're finding they have some similar values - that's one reason I'm reading that makes them attracted to one another with the potential for love. 

I just imagine the look of shock on so many heroes' faces when they teleport into the Justice League's Watchtower together and Batman's like, "Have you met my wife Catwoman?" LOL. So much fun to play off of people whose personal experience with Batman is that he's emotionally remote and strictly business. 

I would love to see Catwoman join the Justice League at some point as a surveillance, infiltration, and espionage specialist - as well as the whole dynamic between Leaguers when a couple are on the team. I know Katar and Shayera and Arthur and Mera have been on the team together in the past, but it really doesn't feel like that dynamic has been explored a lot except with Ralph and Sue Dibny, and Sue didn't have a heroic persona so to speak. 

The same kind of goes for the Batfamily. Some will be happy he's found happiness. Some may not trust Selina due to past interactions. (e.g. "Remember that time you whipped me over an emerald cat statue, lady?!") lol. Some are so used to Batman being totally focused on his mission, that'll wonder where they stand now that they're married. Some might be jealous that Batman figured out how to have a relationship and it might make them think about what kind of romantic relationship they want for themselves. Besides leaping off buildings and punching bad guys, I want to see how some of this human stuff radiates out from Batman and Catwoman, since they are such central figures to Batfamily and Gotham underworld. 

Moving on...I love the dress. The cat ear tiara is a little on the nose, so I could drop that accessory, but the symbology is nice.  :Wink:  I can see Alfred walking Selina down the aisle as an intriguing gesture of inclusion in the family, but I can also it being a very Selina thing to walk herself down the aisle. 

Based on these two characters and their long, diverse real-world history, this has the makings of being one of the most exciting (and least boring) married couples in fiction.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I just imagine the look of shock on so many heroes' faces when they teleport into the Justice League's Watchtower together and Batman's like, "Have you met my wife Catwoman?" LOL. So much fun to play off of people whose personal experience with Batman is that he's emotionally remote and strictly business. 
> 
> I would love to see Catwoman join the Justice League at some point as a surveillance, infiltration, and espionage specialist - as well as the whole dynamic between Leaguers when a couple are on the team. I know Katar and Shayera and Arthur and Mera have been on the team together in the past, but it really doesn't feel like that dynamic has been explored a lot except with Ralph and Sue Dibny, and Sue didn't have a heroic persona so to speak.


Catwoman was in the Justice League of America. Pretty much for that purpose.

JLA_2_TheGroup-000c.jpg

----------


## WonderScott

> Catwoman was in the Justice League of America. Pretty much for that purpose.
> 
> JLA_2_TheGroup-000c.jpg


Yeah, but not with her husband and her new friend Clark and, more or less, the rest of Bruce's Justice League besties.

----------


## nonsense man

I knew it they were going to make look bruce weak and a loser.  If you read the recent solit today were bruce is the damsel in distress against the joker.  This made me mad even though I am catwoman fan I like batman too.  I knew for this marriage tom king had to nueter bruce and make him weak if that is how their adventures is going to be then this marriage is bad for both of them.  He could of decided selina would have been the damsel but because he  sees his marriage in the characters he writes he is going to do this to bruce sure.  Womans rights yeah!!  remember this most batman fans do not care for catwoman now that he is truly being crapped on by tom king if he continues to write bruce like this the divorce will happen and they will never have batcat be romantically involved maybe for the next decade or more but if some bat only fans become comic writers themselves someday and see the worst characterization of bruce in decades even the 50's batman was treated better than what king is doing so far.  It will be longer maybe 40 years or more and it is not hyperbole  The little good will I had with the superfriends issue or even the annual is gone alot others will feel the same once they find out  It could be longer than a decade it could be a permanent divorce.  Also I read for this year the real horoscope of batman the day he was published they wrote the character will have his greatest crisis in his entire history of his existence well they were right and this is it.  I would not like it either if bruce would have to save selina  from joker she can take him and bruce definately can as well.  I told you this would happen because they have identical skills they do not work in harmony out in the field.  Both characters can exist without each other and have good books seperate because of tom king I want the divorce to be permanent now after what he done to bruce.  Other writers reading it will make it so and it is easy because it would be believable for them to divorce.  They can stay apart easily for example the lesbian crime boss version of selina it was well recieved and liked I hope they do that again no more bat cat ever again they both deserve better especially bruce batman fans are not used to having their guy being demeaned but once they know about it there will be a alot of issues not sold of batman in June once  batman only fans find out about it.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Here we go again. It's the same complaining as when TV Supergirl beat Superman in a fair fight.

----------


## Aioros22

Batman being the damsel in distress once in awhile does nothing against his supposed machoness. 

And nothing more needs to be said.

----------


## WonderScott

It's awesome that it appears Selina will be saving Bruce. More interaction and conflict between Catwoman and Joker is great. I'm interested in how the official coupledom of Catwoman and Batman will alter Joker's opinion of Catwoman. I mean, in some tellings Joker thinks Batman should only "love" and be concerned about him. 

Considering their long history, Catwoman and Joker have had relatively few run-ins considering how iconic both are in Batman and comic history.

----------


## WonderScott

> Batman being the damsel in distress once in awhile does nothing against his supposed machoness. 
> 
> And nothing more needs to be said.


^^^ This. 

10charac

----------


## Miles To Go

With Selina vs Joker happening in these June issues, and the villains being taken care of in the one-shots, maybe Batman#50 won't be so packed with incident like I thought it would...maybe it'll be a regular down-to-earth day

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It's awesome that it appears Selina will be saving Bruce. More interaction and conflict between Catwoman and Joker is great. I'm interested in how the official coupledom of Catwoman and Batman will alter Joker's opinion of Catwoman. I mean, in some tellings Joker thinks Batman should only "love" and be concerned about him. 
> 
> Considering their long history, Catwoman and Joker have had relatively few run-ins considering how iconic both are in Batman and comic history.


Being a Catwoman fan, my favorite Catwoman/Joker story was in the comic book Joker #9, where Catwoman basically made Joker her bitch. He was genuinely terrified of her. But then in general Catwoman doesn't tend to take
any crap from Joker.

----------


## WonderScott

> Being a Catwoman fan, my favorite Catwoman/Joker story was in the comic book Joker #9, where Catwoman basically made Joker her bitch. He was genuinely terrified of her. But then in general Catwoman doesn't tend to take
> any crap from Joker.


I never read the Joker series, but we need more of that. They've had some minor run-ins, but I'm ready for a Joker versus Selina storyline. It's always interesting when villains (well, I guess Selina is no longer a villain) create a relationship as well. 

I've been working on a little Bat family and Joker "family" storyline that definitely switches up the partners you'd expect each character to interact together. In this story, it's gets pretty intense with Selina versus Joker in matching wits.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I never read the Joker series, but we need more of that. They've had some minor run-ins, but I'm ready for a Joker versus Selina storyline. It's always interesting when villains (well, I guess Selina is no longer a villain) create a relationship as well.


I think I only have Joker #9, because Catwoman was in it.  Before Catwoman got her own series in 1993 I had been trying to collect every comic book with Catwoman in it, going to all the comic books stores in driving distance,
used books stores, any store that sold old comic books. That was one I found. Also have the two Lois Lane books with Catwoman in it.  Now Catwoman is in so many books it is hard to keep up but I think I have most of them.




> I've been working on a little Bat family and Joker "family" storyline that definitely switches up the partners you'd expect each character to interact together. In this story, it's gets pretty intense with Selina versus Joker in matching wits.


Sounds fun. Let me know when it's ready.

----------


## nonsense man

They could avoid this controversy just write a catwoman vs joker without bruce being involved as the prize.  But it does not have the interest a guess as humilating him again.  The entire run except the romantic moments between bruce and selina has been about humilating bruce.  That is a fact.  The marriage is just a smokescreen to hide tom kings protrayal of batman by demeaning and destroying him.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I knew it they were going to make look bruce weak and a loser.  If you read the recent solit today were bruce is the damsel in distress against the joker.  This made me mad even though I am catwoman fan I like batman too.  I knew for this marriage tom king had to nueter bruce and make him weak if that is how their adventures is going to be then this marriage is bad for both of them.  He could of decided selina would have been the damsel but because he  sees his marriage in the characters he writes he is going to do this to bruce sure.  Womans rights yeah!!  remember this most batman fans do not care for catwoman now that he is truly being crapped on by tom king if he continues to write bruce like this the divorce will happen and they will never have batcat be romantically involved maybe for the next decade or more but if some bat only fans become comic writers themselves someday and see the worst characterization of bruce in decades even the 50's batman was treated better than what king is doing so far.  It will be longer maybe 40 years or more and it is not hyperbole  The little good will I had with the superfriends issue or even the annual is gone alot others will feel the same once they find out  It could be longer than a decade it could be a permanent divorce.  Also I read for this year the real horoscope of batman the day he was published they wrote the character will have his greatest crisis in his entire history of his existence well they were right and this is it.  I would not like it either if bruce would have to save selina  from joker she can take him and bruce definately can as well.  I told you this would happen because they have identical skills they do not work in harmony out in the field.  Both characters can exist without each other and have good books seperate because of tom king I want the divorce to be permanent now after what he done to bruce.  Other writers reading it will make it so and it is easy because it would be believable for them to divorce.  They can stay apart easily for example the lesbian crime boss version of selina it was well recieved and liked I hope they do that again no more bat cat ever again they both deserve better especially bruce batman fans are not used to having their guy being demeaned but once they know about it there will be a alot of issues not sold of batman in June once  batman only fans find out about it.


Batman hasn't been "neutered". I mean was he a loser all the other times in the comics where he has gotten hurt and somebody else helped saved him? Like Alfred? Or Dick Grayson? Or even Julia Pennyworth, Robin and Vicki Vale as a combo helping him? 

I mean, if that's how you feel, then that's how you feel but I can't highly see HOW a dude is still looked upon as demeaned when he crashes through a window and lands in his Batmobile.  :Confused:  All the while carrying somebody else in his hands.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Batman hasn't been "neutered". I mean was he a loser all the other times in the comics where he has gotten hurt and somebody else helped saved him? Like Alfred? Or Dick Grayson? Or even Julia Pennyworth, Robin and Vicki Vale as a combo helping him? 
> 
> I mean, if that's how you feel, then that's how you feel but I highly see HOW a dude is still looked upon as demeaned when he crashes through a window and lands in his Batmobile.  All the while carrying somebody else in his hands.


I guess for some people he is Bat-god.  Omnipotent and always in control.  The Savior instead of the save-ee.  Heaven forbid he be saved by someone almost his equal but female.

----------


## WontonGirl

I think if anything, Batman and Catwoman enhance each other when they fight and she is one of the precious few that can fight completely in sync with him. Especially without any training from him or by him. 

I mean when they are in the field, they fight extremely good together. They are in harmony and he doesn't overpower her or question her skills and she trusts his skills and follows his lead, if need be. That's one thing they NEVER had to worry about with each other; how well they fought alongside each other and how over time, when he needs her, she's there and he always has her back and come through for her. That's definitely harmony. 

If anything, HUSH is one of the BEST examples of them working and fighting along side of each other. Batman might have had trust issues, but trusting Catwoman's fighting skills was definitely not one of them.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

Just a question, have we seen Selina get all excited about getting married when she's by herself or with someone besides Bruce...to show that she's really happy about it...

----------


## WontonGirl

> Just a question, have we seen Selina get all excited about getting married when she's by herself or with someone besides Bruce...to show that she's really happy about it...


Yes, she did with Holly. That's why she pleaded with Holly and she mentioned how she really wanted this. 

I don't see Selina running around saying "I look pretty" while trying on wedding dresses. Maybe in the comics *before the 90's* they would have her doing that but I don't see that in 2018.

----------


## Aioros22

> They could avoid this controversy just write a catwoman vs joker without bruce being involved as the prize.  But it does not have the interest a guess as humilating him again.  The entire run except the romantic moments between bruce and selina has been about humilating bruce.  That is a fact.  The marriage is just a smokescreen to hide tom kings protrayal of batman by demeaning and destroying him.


Examples of this supposed controversy aside from your own opinioned post and how they directly demeen the public perception.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

> Yes, she did with Holly. That's why she pleaded with Holly and she mentioned how she really wanted this. 
> 
> I don't see Selina running around saying "I look pretty" while trying on wedding dresses. Maybe in the comics *before the 90's* they would have her doing that but I don't see that in 2018.


Thanks, yeah I don't think that she'd do the "I look pretty" part either but just glad that she has been shown to be happy and excited about it, just hope that they have them get married and have some happy times...just think of the honeymoon, especially if he bring the handcuffs and she her whip... :Embarrassment:

----------


## Talon1load

> Examples of this supposed controversy aside from your own opinioned post and how they directly demeen the public perception.


Dude, just read Kings run.  Batman has been getting the shit beat out of him the entire time.  Instead of Batgod we now have Catgod because she's better at everything than everyone else.  King has definitely been humiliating Bruce the entire run.  Making him suicidal, Riddler's bitch, broken by Bane (again) although he did magically fix his own back with that one, it's just been bad.  Now, it might be a great Catwoman run because she's the real hero in the "Batman" book but it's terrible for Bruce.

----------


## klynn

> Dude, just read Kings run.  Batman has been getting the shit beat out of him the entire time.  Instead of Batgod we now have Catgod because she's better at everything than everyone else.  King has definitely been humiliating Bruce the entire run.  Making him suicidal, Riddler's bitch, broken by Bane (again) although he did magically fix his own back with that one, it's just been bad.  Now, *it might be a great Catwoman run* because she's the real hero in the "Batman" book but it's terrible for Bruce.


This is why I'm loving it.  First _Batman_ series I've ever read and only because Selina is co-staring.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> This is why I'm loving it.  First _Batman_ series I've ever read and only because Selina is co-staring.


Yes, I am also enjoying the Batman comic books more now that Catwoman has become a co-star.  Hearkens back to when Doug Moench was writing Batman back in the 1980s.

----------


## Starrius

> Yes, I am also enjoying the Batman comic books more now that Catwoman has become a co-star.  Hearkens back to when Doug Moench was writing Batman back in the 1980s.


I am back to liking Batman comics more because Catwoman is back to being Batman's love interest.
Right now, I like Batman comics better than Spider-Man comics. 
It would take making Mary Jane back to being Spider-Man's love interest before I go back to liking Spider-Man comics more than Batman comics.

I always liked the Bat/Cat relationship.
No writer could make me hate their relationship.

----------


## Miles To Go

Solicit for Volume 8 of the trades..the aftermath of the wedding




> BATMAN VOL. 8: COLD DAYS TPB
> Author Tom King pens the next epic volume of his critically acclaimed, best-selling Batman series in Batman Vol. 8!
> In the aftermath of the wedding of Batman and Catwoman, the Dark Knight's life has changed completely. Having walked down the aisle, how will this new Bruce Wayne view himself? What is to become of Batman now?
> Don't miss out on the newest installment of this best-selling, critically acclaimed graphic novel series written by breakout star Tom King, and featuring art by Mikel Janín!
> Collects #51-56


https://www.newsarama.com/39312-batm...ch-report.html

Cold Days=Mr. Freeze...or Cold Feet. Or both.

----------


## Katana500

> Solicit for Volume 8 of the trades..the aftermath of the wedding
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/39312-batm...ch-report.html
> 
> Cold Days=Mr. Freeze...or Cold Feet. Or both.


King said he had a court room drama arc coming up! And their was a picture of Mr Freeze in a court on twitter. So i think the arc is centered around that.

Cold feet...lets hope not. Right after the wedding is slightly early lol!

----------


## Tarantino

> This is why I'm loving it.  First _Batman_ series I've ever read and only because Selina is co-staring.


I agree to your saying as well. Cat is actually a major character in this Batman series not just randomly popping up to do some flirting with Bat. I am happy the relationship has finally taken  major progress after 80 years

----------


## Fergus

> This is why I'm loving it.  First _Batman_ series I've ever read and only because Selina is co-staring.


I believe it's the same reason why those who are complaining are. *It's a great Catwoman run* the problem is some of us want a Great Batman Run. We were expecting to get that in the main BATMAN title. 

There was a Catwoman series. The last one was selling in 17k so ahhhhh....

Well 55 or so issues to go.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I believe it's the same reason why those who are complaining are. It's a great Catwoman run the problem is some of us want a Great Batman Run. We were expecting to get that in the main BATMAN title. 
> 
> There was a Catwoman series. The* last one* was selling in 17k so ahhhhh....


Well it was a New 52 series and sort of terrible.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I believe it's the same reason why those who are complaining are. *It's a great Catwoman run* the problem is some of us want a Great Batman Run. We were expecting to get that in the main BATMAN title. 
> 
> There was a Catwoman series. The last one was selling in 17k so ahhhhh....
> 
> Well 55 or so issues to go.


Yeah but remember, there was a time where the Catwoman run had really good sales. The N52 Catwoman run was not a good run.

----------


## Fergus

> Well it was a New 52 series and sort of terrible.


I'll give you the tribble but the other new 52 batuniverse series managed to sell.  like RSOB was in the 30k's, Grayson was in the 30k's, Batgirl was in the 30ks RHATO was in the low 20k's and Batman Beyond was just a few thousand more.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Dude, just read Kings run.  Batman has been getting the shit beat out of him the entire time.  Instead of Batgod we now have Catgod because she's better at everything than everyone else.  King has definitely been humiliating Bruce the entire run.  Making him suicidal, Riddler's bitch, broken by Bane (again) although he did magically fix his own back with that one, it's just been bad.  Now, it might be a great Catwoman run because she's the real hero in the "Batman" book but it's terrible for Bruce.


Look, we get that you are really not a fan of King's run. But the Catwoman character has ALWAYS been a character that was kick-ass and a better fighter than more than half of the DCU. And that's the trust and there are plenty of decades worth of books and stories to back that up. Whether it was in her own run OR Batman's run or even as a guest star in somebody else's story. 

King isn't making her "Catgod". He is trying to get her back to what she really used to be. 

And prior to Morrison kind of changing him into the "Batgod; Batman used to make mistakes, grieve, get defeated by villains, got his back broke, get outsmarted by villains, shown sadness and have human emotions and moments ALL THE TIME. And there were years where he was a stone.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'll give you the tribble but the other new 52 batuniverse series managed to sell.  like RSOB was in the 30k's, Grayson was in the 30k's, Batgirl was in the 30ks RHATO was in the low 20k's and Batman Beyond was just a few thousand more.


Yeah but that proves our point. The Catwoman series wasn't to the fans liking so they dropped the book. I mean there was a time when Catwoman was a high selling title. 

And Batgirl is not selling like that now. Definitely not Batman Beyond. Things change. 

And we are talking about Catwoman. Her place in pop cuture and Comic Pop Culture is Iconic. 

And Grayson was King and Seeley.  :Wink:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I'll give you the tribble but the other new 52 batuniverse series managed to sell.  like RSOB was in the 30k's, Grayson was in the 30k's, Batgirl was in the 30ks RHATO was in the low 20k's and Batman Beyond was just a few thousand more.


Supergirl did so poorly it didn't even reach 52. Supergirl New 52 got cancelled at #40. Same reason. Sort of terrible.  Perhaps those other books were better written.

----------


## WontonGirl

> This is why I'm loving it.  First _Batman_ series I've ever read and only because Selina is co-staring.


Read the Golden Age comics and the 80's comics and some comics 2000-2004, she was almost like a co-star there in the Batman series. Catwoman used to be a mainstay in Tec for decades right up until about 2010.

----------


## Fergus

> Yeah but remember, there was a time where the Catwoman run had really good sales. The N52 Catwoman run was not a good run.


Well after more than 70 years, movies, appearance in ALL bat animated shows, the Gotham tv series, appearances in one of the biggest comicbook movies of all time and DCU games a bad series is enough to chase away all the fans like that? 

WOW.  those are crazy low figures for a character that's had more than 70 years to build up a following.

Catwoman is one of the most advertised, well known characters in fiction.
Lets hope this well publicised run in the Batman series does the trick eh. She might not be the queen of Gotham these days but here's hoping being Batman's beau will give her the shot in the arm she sourly needs

----------


## Fergus

> Supergirl did so poorly it didn't even reach 52. Supergirl New 52 got cancelled at #40. Same reason. Sort of terrible.  Perhaps those other books were better written.


RSOB and Gayson were execllent. Grayson was my introduction to King and is still my goto feel good read to date.

----------


## WontonGirl

Has anybody pre-ordered the Selina Kyle cover? 

Batman-44-Catwomans-wedding-dress-675x1024.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well after more than 70 years, movies, appearance in ALL bat animated shows, the Gotham tv series, appearances in one of the biggest comicbook movies of all time and DCU games a bad series is enough to chase away all the fans like that? 
> 
> WOW.  those are crazy low figures for a character that's had more than 70 years to build up a following.
> 
> Catwoman is one of the most advertised, well known characters in fiction.
> Lets hope this well publicised run in the Batman series does the trick eh. She might not be the queen of Gotham these days but here's hoping being Batman's beau will give her the shot in the arm she sourly needs


*Fergus*, I swear you confused me all the time, LOL! I don't know if you are a fan or not, I'm like,  :Confused: 

I mean, Catwoman, just like you said is a well advertised figure. BUT as I know being a Mainstream fan myself, Catwoman, Batman, Supers, Spidey; they are in so much Mainstream stuff, some fans feel like they don't need to read the comics to get their fix. You know what I mean? 

It's like Wonder Woman. There are SO MANY women who came out to see that movie and grew up on WW show, the coloring books, special books, maybe the earlier comics, etc. But with ALL THAT HISTORY and being so iconic, Wonder Woman can't crack 45K? 

Superman used to sell over 500,000 copies. Books used to get CANCELLED for 30K. But know that's considered good? 

Please. Sometimes, things happen. They cancelled Black Canaray's book too. And most people_ outside of DC Comic book readers_, don't even know Batman has a son. I just found out in 2015 and I've always considered myself a big Batman fan.

----------


## WontonGirl

Catwoman makes an appearance in the movie; Ready Player One. The list of all the DC Cameos are here and she is listed at #5. 

https://screenrant.com/ready-player-...ggs-dc-cameos/

----------


## WontonGirl

Catwoman is also in the latest *Injustice 2, Issue #52* as well! As usual, Catwoman is making her rounds this week!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godlike13

> I'll give you the tribble but the other new 52 batuniverse series managed to sell.  like RSOB was in the 30k's, Grayson was in the 30k's, Batgirl was in the 30ks RHATO was in the low 20k's and Batman Beyond was just a few thousand more.


This isn’t an accurate narrative. RSOB was a newer launched DCYou book, Grayson was also a newer launch, and RHatO and BB was canceled and relaunched by the time Catwoman was in the teens. Batgirl is the only fair comparison, and Batgirl had advantages Catwoman did not. For the most part Catwoman sold above or in the 20ks. Under, for the most part, bad creative teams, and against a number of relaunches.

----------


## WontonGirl

> This isn’t an accurate narrative. RSOB was a newer launched DCYou book, Grayson was also a newer launch, and RHatO and BB was canceled and relaunched by the time Catwoman was in the teens. Batgirl is the only fair comparison, and Batgirl had advantages Catwoman did not. For the most part Catwoman sold above or in the 20ks. Under, for the most part, bad creative teams, and against a number a of relaunches.


Exactly! DCYou didn't turn out to be a good thing for the company overall either. Shoot, Harley Quinn isn't even selling what she used to sell. I mean, The Flash sells more than Supes, WW and sometimes the Justice League. 

Things happen. We get a writer that actually likes Catwoman. I bet a lot of these fans don't even really want a Catwoman title. They just don't want her taking up so much space in the main book. But it would be okay for some of the "Robins" and characters like Joker or other Rogues to take up space. That's fine.

----------


## K Nikk

> *Fergus*, I swear you confused me all the time, LOL! I don't know if you are a fan or not, I'm like, 
> 
> I mean, Catwoman, just like you said is a well advertised figure. BUT as I know being a Mainstream fan myself, Catwoman, Batman, Supers, Spidey; they are in so much Mainstream stuff, some fans feel like they don't need to read the comics to get their fix. You know what I mean? 
> 
> It's like Wonder Woman. There are SO MANY women who came out to see that movie and grew up on WW show, the coloring books, special books, maybe the earlier comics, etc. But with ALL THAT HISTORY and being so iconic, Wonder Woman can't crack 45K? 
> 
> Superman used to sell over 500,000 copies. Books used to get CANCELLED for 30K. But know that's considered good? 
> 
> Please. Sometimes, things happen. They cancelled Black Canaray's book too. And most people_ outside of DC Comic book readers_, don't even know Batman has a son. I just found out in 2015 and I've always considered myself a big Batman fan.


Pretty sure he is being sarcastic and not a fan, if you read the Damian thread.  He commented about the lack of Catwoamn support in the Talia /Catwoman thread as proof that Talia is more interesting and I considered commenting "I've avoided opening the thread because I assume people who aren't liking the current Batman storyline will use it to make sarcastic pot-shots at Catwoman or her fans as they've been doing in other threads, even her appreciation thread."  Decided not to comment, and then came here and see exactly what I was going to mention.   :Smile:  

A book that treats a character badly, that turns off her fans can start selling poorly.  People wait for another writer to come around.  That's not a surprise and nothing new and not a knock on the character herself.  A lot of what I see in Catwoman has been missing for a while and hoping the next time she gets a standalone it will be the version of her that I recognize more.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Well after more than 70 years, movies, appearance in ALL bat animated shows, the Gotham tv series, appearances in one of the biggest comicbook movies of all time and DCU games a bad series is enough to chase away all the fans like that? 
> 
> WOW.  those are crazy low figures for a character that's had more than 70 years to build up a following.
> 
> Catwoman is one of the most advertised, well known characters in fiction.
> Lets hope this well publicised run in the Batman series does the trick eh. She might not be the queen of Gotham these days but here's hoping being Batman's beau will give her the shot in the arm she sourly needs


I'm reading, but I'm not seeing any coherent argument here. Maybe you would like to express your point in a better manner?

The New 52 Catwoman title was the single most heavily lambasted comic of that era, to the point that it became a running joke while Nocenti was writing the title. The book never had the pleasure of receiving a marquee author, and after Winick and March left the book DC decided to cut their losses and pretend the book didn't exist. Even when DCYou era came around and Valentine turned it into one of the best cape runs of the past decade, DC was too buy plastering Batgirl and Harley Quinn on all their adverts, so no wonder the book didn't sell. It has literally nothing to do with the character quality.

In fact, your argument is quite ironic, considering her history and cross-media accolades do nothing but compound her continued worth as a character and speak to creators' desire to use her to craft great stories.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

I think that it'd be fun to see Selina get all nervous before walking down the aisle, that it was actually happening and all of that...

----------


## WontonGirl

> *In fact, your argument is quite ironic, considering her history and cross-media accolades do nothing but compound her continued worth as a character and speak to creators' desire to use her to craft great stories*.


This right here says it all! If Catwoman had NO impact, she wouldn't be in so much mainstream features or cross-media accolades as she does. 

I mean, the woman had a cameo in a Spielberg video game movie???? I mean, none of Bruce's love interests or main characters were in there EXCEPT for Joker, HQ and Batgirl. Three highly recognizable characters off the first glance. (I know Death and Dead were in there too). 

People just want to hate on her  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WontonGirl

> I think that it'd be fun to see Selina get all nervous before walking down the aisle, that it was actually happening and all of that...


Who would she expressed this nervousness to? Lois or Dinah? 

I say post King, maybe Lois or even Barbara. But Pre-King or Pre-Morrison, I think she would had expressed it to Harley. Or maybe even Holly, but they would have to bring her into the main Bat title.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

I just meant that she might get nervous before the big moment, not really necessarily tell someone but show it, that even though she wants to get married she's still nervous, maybe more from the art and such than her actually saying anything...I'm not against the marriage I just think that it's a HUGE step for both and it'd only be natural for both to be nervous as imho both Bruce and Selina seem to often expect the worst to happen and when it doesn't they're unsure of what to do...

----------


## Starrius

> Pretty sure he is being sarcastic and not a fan, if you read the Damian thread.  He commented about the lack of Catwoamn support in the Talia /Catwoman thread as proof that Talia is more interesting and I considered commenting
> .


I am confused.
If you're referring to The Catwoman/Talia poll,  Talia is getting blown out by Catwoman so bad that it's not even close to being a competition.
The last time I checked tonight, Catwoman got 80.15 percent of 136 votes

----------


## Caivu

By Stephen Byrne:

IMG_20180404_010843.jpg

----------


## Fergus

> I'm reading, but I'm not seeing any coherent argument here. Maybe you would like to express your point in a better manner?
> 
> The New 52 Catwoman title was the single most heavily lambasted comic of that era, to the point that it became a running joke while Nocenti was writing the title. The book never had the pleasure of receiving a marquee author, and after Winick and March left the book DC decided to cut their losses and pretend the book didn't exist. Even when DCYou era came around and Valentine turned it into one of the best cape runs of the past decade, DC was too buy plastering Batgirl and Harley Quinn on all their adverts, so no wonder the book didn't sell. It has literally nothing to do with the character quality.
> 
> In fact, your argument is quite ironic, considering her history and cross-media accolades do nothing but compound her continued worth as a character and speak to creators' desire to use her to craft great stories.


We are talking sales figures not creators desires I am talking about her continued worth in sales figures. Creators might want to use a character doesn't mean that the fans are flocking to read the creation. 
What were her numbers before the new52? enlighten me then.

----------


## Fergus

> *Fergus*, I swear you confused me all the time, LOL! I don't know if you are a fan or not, I'm like, 
> 
> I mean, Catwoman, just like you said is a well advertised figure. BUT as I know being a Mainstream fan myself, Catwoman, Batman, Supers, Spidey; they are in so much Mainstream stuff, some fans feel like they don't need to read the comics to get their fix. You know what I mean? 
> 
> It's like Wonder Woman. There are SO MANY women who came out to see that movie and grew up on WW show, the coloring books, special books, maybe the earlier comics, etc. But with ALL THAT HISTORY and being so iconic, Wonder Woman can't crack 45K? 
> 
> Superman used to sell over 500,000 copies. Books used to get CANCELLED for 30K. But know that's considered good? 
> 
> Please. Sometimes, things happen. They cancelled Black Canaray's book too. And most people_ outside of DC Comic book readers_, don't even know Batman has a son. I just found out in 2015 and I've always considered myself a big Batman fan.


I am not a fan but I'm also not a Hater. Mostly I'm indifferent but I like to play devil Advocate. I know her from the mainstream and always thought she was one of DCs bigger properties. I was surprised when I found out on comic vine how her new52 comic went. 

You see I feel that Cats is a bit like Wonder Wonder. if she had a good movie would get the audience but day to day most don't really care and would not go out of their way to buy her.

----------


## Fergus

> Pretty sure he is being sarcastic and not a fan, if you read the Damian thread.  He commented about the lack of Catwoamn support in the Talia /Catwoman thread as proof that Talia is more interesting and I considered commenting "I've avoided opening the thread because I assume people who aren't liking the current Batman storyline will use it to make sarcastic pot-shots at Catwoman or her fans as they've been doing in other threads, even her appreciation thread."  Decided not to comment, and then came here and see exactly what I was going to mention.   
> 
> A book that treats a character badly, that turns off her fans can start selling poorly.  People wait for another writer to come around.  That's not a surprise and nothing new and not a knock on the character herself.  A lot of what I see in Catwoman has been missing for a while and hoping the next time she gets a standalone it will be the version of her that I recognize more.


Dude you need to edit or retract this since I did no such thing. Go back look at my comment look at the WHOLE comment thread. This is a lie not even a misunderstanding

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> We are talking sales figures not creators desires I am talking about her continued worth in sales figures. Creators might want to use a character doesn't mean that the fans are flocking to read the creation. 
> What were her numbers before the new52? enlighten me then.


Couldn't find the numbers for the first issue of the first Catwoman series, but #19 in March 1996 sold 68,500 issues.

The final issue of the first Catwoman series, #94 in July 2001, sold 25,774 issues

The first issue of Catwoman's second series, in January 2002, sold 49,413 issues

The final issue of the second Catwoman series, #82 in October 2008, sold 17,652 issues

The first issue Catwoman New 52 in November 2011 sold 53,670 issues

The final issues of Catwoman New 52, #52 in July 2016, sold  16,146 issues.

So apparently the interest was there but DC failed in the execution three times in a row.

----------


## CryNotWolf

> We are talking sales figures not creators desires I am talking about her continued worth in sales figures. Creators might want to use a character doesn't mean that the fans are flocking to read the creation. 
> What were her numbers before the new52? enlighten me then.


And if you would bother to take the time to think about this...like, at all...you would realize that Catwoman's comics have historically pulled very good numbers for a character that:

1. isn't a superhero
2. is not kid-friendly (and by that I mean "mature" by multiple definitions)
3. occupies an atypical place in their mythos
4. gets little to no advert push from DC
5. very sparingly gets talented/popular creators
6. is poorly edited

Perhaps you should put in even the tiniest bit of effort to contextualize these things instead of coming onto this board acting all incredulous. You're not playing "devil's advocate", you're just broadcasting your ignorance in an effort to make others do the work to inform you.

The love for the character is clear as day, as is her popularity and permeation through not only the world of comics but popular culture as a whole. If DC wanted to make a Catwoman book work, it would be astoundingly simple, especially in today's climate.

----------


## klynn

Loved _Batman_ #44 today.  Joelle Jones' art was fantastic as usual.  Really, I'd read a whole series of just day-in-the-life stories about Selina by King & Jones.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> And if you would bother to take the time to think about this...like, at all...you would realize that Catwoman's comics have historically pulled very good numbers for a character that:
> 
> 1. isn't a superhero
> 2. is not kid-friendly (and by that I mean "mature" by multiple definitions)
> 3. occupies an atypical place in their mythos
> 4. gets little to no advert push from DC
> 5. very sparingly gets talented/popular creators
> 6. is poorly edited
> 
> ...


Just look how well the first few issues of each Catwoman series sold as compared to the last few issue.  The love of a character can only last so long if all they are getting in the comic books is junk.

----------


## Diammandis

Batman 46 cover by Tony Daniel

----------


## WontonGirl

> I am not a fan but I'm also not a Hater. Mostly I'm indifferent but I like to play devil Advocate. I know her from the mainstream and always thought she was one of DCs bigger properties. I was surprised when I found out on comic vine how her new52 comic went. 
> 
> You see I feel that Cats is a bit like Wonder Wonder. if she had a good movie would get the audience but day to day most don't really care and would not go out of their way to buy her.


Catwoman IS one of DC big iconic properties. If she wasn't, then she wouldn't be in this run and the Batman character wouldn't be marrying her. He would be marrying, Julie Madison or Vicki Vale, LOL! 

I mean, if we want to be real, outside of the _CURRENT_ comics and maybe some Gamers who played Injustice, barely nobody knows that Damian exist. Does that mean he is less important? I don't think Damian comic fans would say no. And outside of _CURRENT_ DC Comic readers, trust, NOBODY knows who Synder is or what N52 was or Metal or any of that stuff. But lots of people can tell you about how "Batman and Catwoman has a kid in the comics", an alternate Earth story from the 80's that people STILL talk about. 

The reason why Catwoman is SO popular in the mainstream is because she was and is popular in the comics first. I mean people still talk about When In Rome and The Long Halloween, HUSH, shoot even Ed Brubaker's run is critical acclaim. You got folks getting married in Wedding chapels as "Batman and Catwoman", going to adult Halloween parties as "Batman and Catwoman". This character has been in EVERY medium and even though other characters have as well, they don't have the popularity that she has. 

Character popularity isn't always based or driven on Sales. IF that was the case, then Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men comics would be selling over 1 million copies per issue per month! All these Batman and Spidey fans running around here  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WontonGirl

I don't know why I can't edit this post! LOL!

----------


## WontonGirl

All the covers look great!

----------


## WonderScott

Such a beautiful cover - I'm so here for the Bat and Cat romance and relationship.

----------


## klynn

> Catwoman IS one of DC big iconic properties. If she wasn't, then she wouldn't be in this run and the Batman character wouldn't be marrying her. He would be marrying, Julie Madison or Vicki Vale, LOL! 
> 
> I mean, if we want to be real, outside of the _CURRENT_ comics and maybe some Gamers who played Injustice, barely nobody knows that Damian exist. Does that mean he is less important? I don't think Damian comic fans would say no. And outside of _CURRENT_ DC Comic readers, trust, NOBODY knows who Synder is or what N52 was or Metal or any of that stuff. But lots of people can tell you about how "Batman and Catwoman has a kid in the comics", an alternate Earth story from the 80's that people STILL talk about. 
> 
> The reason why Catwoman is SO popular in the mainstream is because she was and is popular in the comics first.* I mean people still talk about When In Rome and The Long Halloween, HUSH, shoot even Ed Brubaker's run is critical acclaim.* You got folks getting married in Wedding chapels as "Batman and Catwoman", going to adult Halloween parties as "Batman and Catwoman". This character has been in EVERY medium and even though other characters have as well, they don't have the popularity that she has. 
> 
> Character popularity isn't always based or driven on Sales. IF that was the case, then Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men comics would be selling over 1 million copies per issue per month! All these Batman and Spidey fans running around here


Just wondering if Selina is a significant enough character in The Long Halloween to read it.  I've read the other stories you mentioned here.

----------


## Fergus

> Couldn't find the numbers for the first issue of the first Catwoman series, but #19 in March 1996 sold 68,500 issues.
> 
> The final issue of the first Catwoman series, #94 in July 2001, sold 25,774 issues
> 
> The first issue of Catwoman's second series, in January 2002, sold 49,413 issues
> 
> The final issue of the second Catwoman series, #82 in October 2008, sold 17,652 issues
> 
> The first issue Catwoman New 52 in November 2011 sold 53,670 issues
> ...


So 2001 was the last time she had good numbers since 1st issue's don't reflect the actual stabilised sales figures

----------


## Fergus

> And if you would bother to take the time to think about this...like, at all...you would realize that Catwoman's comics have historically pulled very good numbers for a character that:
> 
> 1. isn't a superhero
> 2. is not kid-friendly (and by that I mean "mature" by multiple definitions)
> 3. occupies an atypical place in their mythos
> 4. gets little to no advert push from DC
> 5. very sparingly gets talented/popular creators
> 6. is poorly edited
> 
> ...


Yes got someone else to do the work and from the figures provided seems I was right. Her last 2 series  did sell in the 16k -17k region. 2001 was the last time she stabilised at a decent number.

----------


## Starrius

As a BatCat relationship fan, I prefer Catwoman being a supporting character in Batman comics over her having her solo comic book series which usually has very little BatCat interaction.

Heck...in the last Catwoman comic series, Selina is made out to be bisexual and has a female lover.  


I hope that she will go back to having long hair and a purple costume in the future.

also...I don't like how she was written with a sex-worker past which I think is totally unnecessary

----------


## Miles To Go

Cover to DC Nation#2

----------


## WontonGirl

> As a BatCat relationship fan, I prefer Catwoman being a supporting character in Batman comics over her having her solo comic book series which usually has very little BatCat interaction.
> 
> Heck...in the last Catwoman comic series, Selina is made out to be bisexual and has a female lover.  
> 
> 
> I hope that she will go back to having long hair and a purple costume in the future.
> 
> also...I don't like how she was written with a sex-worker past which I think is totally unnecessary


Sounds like you are a fan of Pre-Crisis Catwoman.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Just wondering if Selina is a significant enough character in The Long Halloween to read it.  I've read the other stories you mentioned here.


Yes, I highly recommend the story. I mean, I recommend the story just on Loeb alone.

----------


## WontonGirl

> So 2001 was the last time she had good numbers since 1st issue's don't reflect the actual stabilised sales figures


So what is really your point? So what Catwoman lost some sales numbers. A lot of books over the years lost sales numbers. 

It still doesn't take away from her being one of the most popular characters in comic book history, comics history and Pop Culture. 

If you're not impressed with the character, then you're not impressed with the character. We get it  :Confused:

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Yes got someone else to do the work and from the figures provided seems I was right. Her last 2 series  did sell in the 16k -17k region. 2001 was the last time she stabilised at a decent number.


Once again, you provide nothing but a vapid and empty "argument". Even during her worst times she usually managed around 25k plus. "16-17k" is an outlier. That is a lot for a female-led book that is written for mature readers. Wonder Woman is the single most iconic female character in comics, one of the most popular women in all fiction, yet most of the time her comics struggle to sell in the 30k range, at times dipping below that. That's just what happens when women are an underrepresented demographic in the medium.

What's more important is the fact that she's had some of the best comic runs of the past two decades. And that's just something you can't handwave by whining about sales figures.

Either you are unable to view situations with the necessary context, or you are just unwilling. Either way this is a complete waste of time.

----------


## Starrius

> Sounds like you are a fan of Pre-Crisis Catwoman.


I do like some of the Pre-Crisis stuff.
I do like some of the 90s Catwoman stuff too.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> So 2001 was the last time she had good numbers since 1st issue's don't reflect the actual stabilised sales figures


So lets say by the 5th issue things to shaken out and it's people buying the books to read instead of the speculators.

The fifth issue of the second Catwoman series sold 35,017 copies.

The fifth issue of New 52 Catwoman sold 39,631 copies.

So there was still joy in reading the books and people hadn't yet soured on them for what-ever reason.




> Yes got someone else to do the work and from the figures provided seems I was right. Her last 2 series  did sell in the 16k -17k region. 2001 was the last time she stabilised at a decent number.


You are missing the point.  Catwoman was popular enough to sell well initially.  It was only after the books didn't meet expectation that the numbers dropped that low later in the runs.
People didn't all of a sudden stop liking Catwoman or all of a sudden didn't realize she existed.  People stopped liking the books she was in.

----------


## Restingvoice

What are we talking about? Are we talking about whether Catwoman should have her own series even after marriage instead of co-starring in Batman? Is that why we're debating sales? Doesn't matter. I wanna talk about that. 

I think it can work. They had Batman and Batman and Robin series running at the same time during the New 52, even though Damian and Bruce are living together. There's no reason why there can't be a Catwoman series after marriage. They just need to have different focus.

For example, Batman's main title will keep focusing on detective or villain fights in Gotham in general with more focus on Batman, while the Catwoman title will be focusing on East End, protecting the poor and disenfrachised with more focus on Catwoman, maybe with a touch of temptation for freedom, chaos and thievery. One of the title can focus more on the romance angle.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I do like some of the Pre-Crisis stuff.
> I do like some of the 90s Catwoman stuff too.


So it sounds like you are a Purple Catwoman fan  :Smile:

----------


## Miles To Go

New Catwoman ongoing just announced at C2E2, comes out July. Creative team are Joelle Jones amd Laura Allred (Lady Killer)

----------


## WontonGirl

> What are we talking about? Are we talking about whether Catwoman should have her own series even after marriage instead of co-starring in Batman? Is that why we're debating sales? Doesn't matter. I wanna talk about that. 
> 
> I think it can work. They had Batman and Batman and Robin series running at the same time during the New 52, even though Damian and Bruce are living together. There's no reason why there can't be a Catwoman series after marriage. They just need to have different focus.
> 
> For example, Batman's main title will keep focusing on detective or villain fights in Gotham in general with more focus on Batman, while the Catwoman title will be focusing on East End, protecting the poor and disenfrachised with more focus on Catwoman, maybe with a touch of temptation for freedom, chaos and thievery. One of the title can focus more on the romance angle.


I mean this is what we used to get before the N52. And really before writers started doing "arcs" instead of the "villain of the week" stories. Which I think they should go back to. 

Even if you have Batman doing still putting out 2 issues a month, you can do either 12 villain stories or 20-24 villain stories. BUT if they got married and do two different books; I think that Catwoman would still have to be in those books at least once a month. Catwoman in once issues and then "Selina" in the other issue. 

I mean, if they are going to be Husband and Wife. Or they could have them not show up in each other's issues but again, if they are married that would seem a little weird to have them not be in each issue but Alfred is there, lol!

----------


## WontonGirl

> New Catwoman ongoing just announced at C2E2, comes out July. Creative team are Joelle Jones amd Laura Allred (Lady Killer)


GTFOH!!!! Are you serious???????

----------


## Miles To Go

> GTFOH!!!! Are you serious???????


It's legit

https://www.newsarama.com/39325-c2e2...man-panel.html

-Comes out July 4th
-Readers are urged to read Batman#50 first

----------


## Caivu

> GTFOH!!!! Are you serious???????


Yep, see here:

https://www.newsarama.com/39325-c2e2...man-panel.html

----------


## Miles To Go

Selley just confirmed they'll be touching on Selina's existing daughter this year

----------


## adrikito

I saw this in DCs Batman panel:
https://www.newsarama.com/39325-c2e2...man-panel.html

*04/07/2018 21:14*
 Chris Arrant
Next fan asks about Selina Kyle's daughter showing up.

*04/07/2018 21:15*
 Chris Arrant
Seeley said they will touch upon it this year.

----------


## Miles To Go

ROFL

*Fan Q:* Are you guys going to "One More Day" us?

*Tom King:* Yes, 100%. Joking. Whatever happens in BATMAN #50 will be in Batman continuity.

----------


## Miles To Go



----------


## WontonGirl

Here it is in a pic: 

Catwoman Cover.jpg

----------


## adrikito

SPOIIILERS, The wedding Priest..  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Screen Shot 191.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> SPOIIILERS, The wedding Priest.. 
> 
> Screen Shot 191.jpg


*Adrikito*, I need you to give the new Catwoman book a chance, LOL! Give it a couple of issues, I like you hear on the Cat threads  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> *Adrikito*, I need you to give the new Catwoman book a chance, LOL! Give it a couple of issues, I like you hear on the Cat threads


OK.. Is a new catwoman comic or minicomic?

----------


## WontonGirl

> OK.. Is a new catwoman comic or minicomic?


New Catwoman comic  :Big Grin: 

Catwoman Cover.jpg

----------


## adrikito

One POST-WEDDING catwoman comic now... It would be very different.. Is a good writer?

..... Wait a moment... She is surrounded by cats.. All selina pets are now in Wayne Manor?

----------


## Katana500

Im certainly excited for this comic! Oh yes!

----------


## sakuyamons

Yessssssss!!!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> We are talking sales figures not creators desires I am talking about her continued worth in sales figures. Creators might want to use a character doesn't mean that the fans are flocking to read the creation. 
> What were her numbers before the new52? enlighten me then.


I guess DC Comics has enough faith in Catwoman to give another shot at a Catwoman series.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ryline-1100731

----------


## Frontier

Glad to see Selina with a solo again, and that it's going to look gorgeous  :Big Grin: .



> Selley just confirmed they'll be touching on Selina's existing daughter this year


That seems kind of random to bring in now unless we're just assuming they're actually making Brubaker's run canon again (which doesn't really jive with how King depicted Holly or much anything, but whatever).

----------


## MarquisAsh

> Selley just confirmed they'll be touching on Selina's existing daughter this year


Whose her daughter?

----------


## Frontier

> Whose her daughter?


I assume it's referring to Helena Kyle (not Wayne), the daughter she had late into Post-Crisis.

----------


## MarquisAsh

> I assume it's referring to Helena Kyle (not Wayne), the daughter she had late into Post-Crisis.


Whose the father?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I assume it's referring to Helena Kyle (not Wayne), the daughter she had late into Post-Crisis.


I would assume so. Didn't Selina mention missing her daughter recently? I wanna say it was when she was talking to Ivy.

----------


## Frontier

> Whose the father?


Slam Bradley Jr.

----------


## The Ray

> Selley just confirmed they'll be touching on Selina's existing daughter this year


I truly would rather not. Not one wants to remember Pfeifer's run.

----------


## CryNotWolf

Yeah I really don't see the reason to revisit that subplot with Selina's daughter. It was a bad idea that was also poorly executed. It's one of the few things I was glad about getting taken out of continuity after Flashpoint.

----------


## Badou

I'm in the same boat. I think the whole Helena Kyle story is best forgotten and erased from continuity. I don't know one person who liked the Slam Bradly Jr development. I'm sure there were plans to make her Helena Wayne at one point, but that got nixed and they tried to white wash the whole situation by going the adoption route. It was such a mess.

----------


## Miles To Go

I'm now starting to think this CopyCat storyline is the in-built excuse for Bruce not to go through with marrying Selina in Batman#50. Word reaches him of the heists and Selina also likely confesses to stealing the wedding dress. Bruce will be put two and two together and assume he can't trust Selina, so he calls the wedding off, leaving a dejected Selina driven to expose the copycat, clear her name, and get payback on the thief for ruining her happiness with Bruce.

----------


## Jovos2099

I would hate it if that were true but I don't think it's going to happen besides doesn't the solicitation refer to Selina as the batbride.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

The villagers would storm DC Comics headquarters with torches and pitchforks if there was this big of a build-up to the Bat-Cat marriage and then DC failed to follow through with it.

----------


## Frontier

I'm just imagining Gordon busting into the wedding to arrest Selina for the copycat's crimes. That would be kind of hilarious  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Miles To Go

> The villagers would storm DC Comics headquarters with torches and pitchforks if there was this big of a build-up to the Bat-Cat marriage and then DC failed to follow through with it.


If they do get married, I'm just trying to figure out how Bruce would fit in the title (or even his own) if Selina's ticking off the GPD, they'd be coming 'round to Wayne Manor daily to tell off Bruce for not keeping his wife in check, rofl.

One scenario could be Selina and Bruce catch wind of the copycat crimes and Selina asks Bruce to let her take care of it exclusively to protect him and her new family, and to 'wait for her', they could still get married and have this play out. This marriage could be handled very unconventionally, with Selina even dissapearing for days at a time (like even some domesticated cats do) doing her own thing and Bruce getting on with his own mission.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> If they do get married, I'm just trying to figure out how Bruce would fit in the title (or even his own) if Selina's ticking off the GPD, they'd be coming 'round to Wayne Manor daily to tell off Bruce for not keeping his wife in check, rofl.
> .


LOL, it's not the 1950s.  I don't think anyone these days expects a husband to keep his wife "in check".

----------


## Miles To Go

> LOL, it's not the 1950s.  I don't think anyone these days expects a husband to keep his wife "in check".

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

> If they do get married, I'm just trying to figure out how Bruce would fit in the title (or even his own) if Selina's ticking off the GPD, they'd be coming 'round to Wayne Manor daily to tell off Bruce for not keeping his wife in check, rofl.
> 
> One scenario could be Selina and Bruce catch wind of the copycat crimes and Selina asks Bruce to let her take care of it exclusively to protect him and her new family, and to 'wait for her', they could still get married and have this play out. This marriage could be handled very unconventionally, with Selina even dissapearing for days at a time (like even some domesticated cats do) doing her own thing and Bruce getting on with his own mission.


Haven't they already said that they do get married and then it's the going forward after getting hitched that'll be where the drama is about how them being together will affect their lives, both in and out of the bat and catsuit...

----------


## Huntsman1117

Hi all!
It's been a while since I've posted, but I've been checking in on this thread occassionally.  I haven't had much time to do any commenting because, well, life gets crazy.

Anyway, I gotta say, "Batman" #44 is one of the best Catwoman stories I've read in a long time. OF COURSE Catwoman is going to steal her own wedding dress in the middle of the night! And of course she's going to take her time, roll around on the floor like a cat getting comfortable, then sneer at all the different dresses before finding The Purrfect One (sorry, I had to). But the most interesting part of this issue is the flashbacks to her history with Batman, and her history of various outfits. Apparently the "Rebirth" Catwoman has actually worn all of these outfits in her past, unlike the post-Crisis and New52 Catwoman. I like this as it gives today's Catwoman a much richer history. We can see that this Catwoman is more experienced and more evolved than the New52 Catwoman, and that her history with Batman has spanned more than a decade - maybe even two decades. I particularly thought it was cool to see Catwoman fighting acrobatically against Batman in her Silver Age gown & cape - even though that isn't my favorite costume. I also enjoyed seeing a rather emotional moment with her wearing her 90's costume - which is probably my favorite look for her. 

Speaking of that 90's costume, and her fluctuation of sales and popularity...the 90's "Catwoman" series was her most successful series and during that time, her comic was one of the best-selling comics on the market. It even outsold "Wonder Woman" and "Robin" (though she was running pretty neck-to-neck with "Robin" and "Birds of Prey"). As great and revolutionary as Ed Brubaker's 2001 relaunch was, it didnt maintain high sales as long as Jim Balent's did in the 90's. Her 90's series continued to sell fantastically from 1993 until 1999 (when she cut her hair, added whiskers & a tail to her costume, and ran for mayor of New York - dammit). Sorry, I just had to throw that out there since there has been recent talk of her struggle with sales. The 90's series sold the best.  ;-) 

Anyway, I'm overjoyed that she is getting her own series again. I've been waiting too long. But I think DC did a good job at generating new interest and new hype around Catwoman in order to launch her new series. Honestly, the lengths they took with the engagement to Batman, and the triumphs she has gained over the past year, was much-needed to get the great majority interested in her again.  Because let's face the sad fact that DC has made Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, and Batgirl more attractive and fun than Catwoman over the past 10 years or so.

So here's to hoping we get a more appealling, better-selling, and more widely-seen Catwoman than ever. Because more Catwoman is what we need. ;-)

And yes, I'll admit that Tom King has made Batman more flawed, even weak, at times as he's lifted Catwoman to glory. But Batman is glorified in 10 different comics every month. It's okay for him to look a little weak every once in a while. It wasn't necessary for Tom to portray Batman this way. But in doing so, he brought Batman down to a more human level. Humans are wonderful messes. We go through rough patches, make mistakes, lose ourselves, fall apart...we pick ourselves back up, and we ask for help, even when we feel like we should be helping others but can't. We have weaknesses, and one of our greatest weaknesses - and our greatest strength - is to learn to LOVE. And that's what Tom King's "Batman" is about.

----------


## WontonGirl

*Catwoman #1* 
Writer/Artist: Joëlle Jones
Colorist: Laura Allred
Variant Cover Artist: Stanley Artgerm Lau
_
The wedding nights barely over, but Catwomans back on the streets, this time to expose a copycat whos pulling heists around Gotham City. As Selina cracks the whip on her former criminal cohorts, shes attracting unwanted attention from one of Gothams most dangerous groups. The mob? Nope. Try the GCPD. And as if the Bat-Bride didnt have enough problems, dont miss the debut of an all-new villain determined to make trouble for all nine of Selinas lives. Dont miss the start of an all-new monthly series written and illustrated by Eisner Award-nominee Joëlle Jones!_

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articl...-draw-new.html

----------


## klynn

I am so ridiculously happy about the Joelle Jones _Catwoman_ series (or, more likely, mini-series).  Ever since her exclusive with DC was announced this is the book I was hoping for.  I love her art in general but her Selina is absolutely sublime.  Her facial acting and body language, especially when she draws her sitting, like on the new cover, express every iota of Selina's character.  I cannot wait for the first issue.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I am so ridiculously happy about the Joelle Jones _Catwoman_ series (or, more likely, mini-series).  Ever since her exclusive with DC was announced this is the book I was hoping for.  I love her art in general but her Selina is absolutely sublime.  Her facial acting and body language, especially when she draws her sitting, like on the new cover, express every iota of Selina's character.  I cannot wait for the first issue.


Why do you say mini-series? It was announced that it was an ongoing, monthly series.

----------


## WontonGirl



----------


## OBrianTallent

> 


I had never really heard of Joelle before her Mockingbird one shot, but she has become one of my favorite artists since then.  I love that she's at DC and hope she stays on Catwoman for a long time (or if not she moves to Wonder Woman!!)

----------


## Miles To Go

> 


Video is'nt playing for me. What do they say?

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Video is'nt playing for me. What do they say?


Try the YouTube link.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jOSV29LasG4

----------


## Miles To Go

> Try the YouTube link.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jOSV29LasG4


I did, it said it's not available.

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah I really don't see the reason to revisit that subplot with Selina's daughter. It was a bad idea that was also poorly executed. It's one of the few things I was glad about getting taken out of continuity after Flashpoint.


They could easily correct the bad idea Helena Kyle could become Helena Wayne. Easy way to introduce the character into main universe imo

----------


## Starrius

> They could easily correct the bad idea Helena Kyle could become Helena Wayne. Easy way to introduce the character into main universe imo


How would that work?

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

Maybe have Helena either be born after the marriage or say that Helena that we'd have now say was actually Bruce's daughter somehow or something like that...

But a thought, as Alfred is Bruce's de facto doctor/nurse when he gets hurt I wonder if he'll play that role with Selina as well after the wedding and all of the fun that could entail...as say that Selina doesn't wear much under her outfit and if she got a wound on her side she may sit down and strip off enough of her outfit so that Alfred could take care of it, but would Selina be comfortable with that...would Alfred or Bruce be, or would she just prefer to do it herself or have Bruce do it...could be fun...

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

The most important bit I got out of that interview is that Joelle says she gets to redesign Catwoman's costume.  Selina is over due for a costume change. If its anything like what she gave us in Rules of Engagement and the dress, I have high hopes for what she comes up with.

----------


## Frontier

> The most important bit I got out of that interview is that Joelle says she gets to redesign Catwoman's costume.  Selina is over due for a costume change. If its anything like what she gave us in Rules of Engagement and the dress, I have high hopes for what she comes up with.


I would definitely be down for a Joelle Jones-designed Catwoman costume  :Big Grin: .

----------


## klynn

> Why do you say mini-series? It was announced that it was an ongoing, monthly series.


Only because I can't see Jones carrying this series for long based on _Lady Killer_ and the extreme detail of her art.  I would love nothing more than this to be an ongoing monthly.

----------


## Godlike13

She probably won’t draw every arc.

----------


## Diammandis

Kaare Andrews cover for Batman 46.

----------


## WontonGirl

Batman #44 is going to a 2nd Printing! 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/04...ond-printings/

----------


## Huntsman1117

> 


YES! I'm happy I'm happy Joelle gets to redesign Catwoman! But how soon will this resdesign happen?

----------


## WontonGirl

> YES! I'm happy I'm happy Joelle gets to redesign Catwoman! But how soon will this resdesign happen?


I'm guessing probably within the first two issues of her book. Like I could see it happening in the first issue BUT I could also see it happening in the second issue as well. 

But it would have to be soon because it would have to be a costume where she can BOTH not be recognizable as another "Catwoman" and one that distinguishes herself and still hides her identity  :Smile:

----------


## Huntsman1117

I liked Joelle's desert Catwoman costume. I do hope a new one will incorporate at least a touch of purple or magenta. I hope she'll ditch the heavy workboots. I notice Selina's hair is a little longer on the cover of CATWOMAN #1.

----------


## WontonGirl

Yeah we shall see. I noticed that there is this weird divide between the Purple Catwoman fans (pretty, purple, long hair) vs. the other Catwoman fans. It's like I'm seeing fans talking about how they wish her "hair would grow out longer". Like they are on pins and needles about her hair, lol! 

I mean, what we want the "Pretty Thief"? I kind of liked that Supergirl and Catwoman were a little different in the looks department after so many years of looking like everybody else. Meaning having the long, flowing hair. 

If she grows it back, fantastic. She looks great with it, I can say that. BUT if she doesn't, then hey, she look great with a short cut too. Because not too many could pull off a short cut.

I really love how she looked on the cover of Joelle's Catwoman #1!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Yeah we shall see. I noticed that there is this weird divide between the Purple Catwoman fans (pretty, purple, long hair) vs. the other Catwoman fans. It's like I'm seeing fans talking about how they wish her "hair would grow out longer". Like they are on pins and needles about her hair, lol! 
> 
> I mean, what we want the "Pretty Thief"? I kind of liked that Supergirl and Catwoman were a little different in the looks department after so many years of looking like everybody else. Meaning having the long, flowing hair. 
> 
> If she grows it back, fantastic. She looks great with it, I can say that. BUT if she doesn't, then hey, she look great with a short cut too. Because not too many could pull off a short cut.
> 
> I really love how she looked on the cover of Joelle's Catwoman #1!


I have always preferred Catwoman with long hair.  Purple or black isn't as big a deal, but purple is more traditional.  Would love to have the cape back.  Batman still has his cape.

----------


## DIVINITY

> I really love how she looked on the cover of Joelle's Catwoman #1!


+1 Stunning!!

----------


## WontonGirl

Yeah but heroes actually don't have a cape than they do. Batman's cape makes sense in a way because it helps him with "flight". But I can't see Iron Man, Spidey, Green Lanterns or Flash with a cape. Or even Wonder Woman wearing her cape full time. 

I can't see Nightwing with a cape anymore either, lol. But that pic you put in the post looks really good too!

----------


## Starrius

> Yeah we shall see. I noticed that there is this weird divide between the Purple Catwoman fans (pretty, purple, long hair) vs. the other Catwoman fans. It's like I'm seeing fans talking about how they wish her "hair would grow out longer". Like they are on pins and needles about her hair, lol! 
> 
> I mean, what we want the "Pretty Thief"? I kind of liked that Supergirl and Catwoman were a little different in the looks department after so many years of looking like everybody else. Meaning having the long, flowing hair. 
> 
> If she grows it back, fantastic. She looks great with it, I can say that. BUT if she doesn't, then hey, she look great with a short cut too. Because not too many could pull off a short cut.
> 
> I really love how she looked on the cover of Joelle's Catwoman #1!


I like her hair in the TellTale game

----------


## Restingvoice

> I would definitely be down for a Joelle Jones-designed Catwoman costume .


I'm excited but also kinda nervous. Joelle's really good at designing costumes, that wedding dress is the most beautiful thing, but the current Catwoman costume is a modern classic and one of my top two favorite costumes in all of DCU. The other one is Nightwing. So even for a good costume designer, it's going to be really hard to top. I hope she can pull it off.

----------


## Restingvoice

About costume, the classic purple and the modern black came from different concepts. 
The classic purple was born from the idea that she's a crime queen. She has a cape, a car, a plane, goons, headquarters, death traps and so on. It's regal. 
The modern black came from the idea that she's an independent or hired thief. So it's more practical for jumping on rooftops and acrobatic combat. 
As far as I remember, the purple Catwoman wasn't a martial artist. 
So my preference on those costumes depends on her role in the story. A queen or a thief.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> About costume, the classic purple and the modern black came from different concepts. 
> The classic purple was born from the idea that she's a crime queen. She has a cape, a car, a plane, goons, headquarters, death traps and so on. It's regal. 
> The modern black came from the idea that she's an independent or hired thief. So it's more practical for jumping on rooftops and acrobatic combat. 
> As far as I remember,* the purple Catwoman wasn't a martial artist.* 
> So my preference on those costumes depends on her role in the story. A queen or a thief.


Not true. Purple Catwoman did plenty of fighting:

Batman332-20.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

> About costume, the classic purple and the modern black came from different concepts. 
> The classic purple was born from the idea that she's a crime queen. She has a cape, a car, a plane, goons, headquarters, death traps and so on. It's regal. 
> The modern black came from the idea that she's an independent or hired thief. So it's more practical for jumping on rooftops and acrobatic combat. 
> As far as I remember, the purple Catwoman wasn't a martial artist. 
> So my preference on those costumes depends on her role in the story. A queen or a thief.


Catwoman has pretty much been a Martial artist since the late part of the Golden Age. 

And I think that her being a thief, well I think that if she is breaking into let's say a goon's hideout, then I think that the Black suit is fine. Maybe not Cooke's design, which actually is similar to Lee but I don't know. Maybe Catwoman could have 2 suits?

----------


## tbgo

I hope they get rid of the goggles.

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

I wonder if Selina will try to give Wayne Manor a different look, a woman hasn't lived there since Bruce's mother died after all...and Selina is no shrinking violet...

----------


## tbgo

> I wonder if Selina will try to give Wayne Manor a different look, a woman hasn't lived there since Bruce's mother died after all...and Selina is no shrinking violet...


What does being a woman have to do with anything?

Sina will turn it into a cat sanctuary.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Everyone I know that has seen the Golden and Silver age Catwoman in the purple dress & green cape couldn't believe it was actually Catwoman and none of them like that look. The same goes for when Catwoman started wearing the goggles and work boots. I've heard nothing but complaints from friends, family, coworkers, etc regarding both of those costumes. And I feel the same. Everyone has even commented that Catwoman looks terrible in Injustice and Injustice 2. I hear nothing but complaints about these costumes from the people around me so I can't help but to think this is how most of the general public feels about them too. It's time for a costume that accentuates her beauty, sexy appeal, and aids her as a nimble gymnast and martial artist. Joelle Jones's Catwoman art is pretty edgy and the wedding dress is a little gothic so if Catwoman gets a new design by Jones it will likely have more edgy detail and patterns.

----------


## Celgress

> 


very nice  :Smile:

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

> What does being a woman have to do with anything?
> 
> Sina will turn it into a cat sanctuary.


It's not because of her gender but I don't remember Bruce being a style guy and it's only been he and Alfred living there for year, in my parents marriage my mom picked out pretty much all of the furniture and unless my dad really didn't like something he went along with it, and there's always the talk that when two people move in together a lot of the guy's stuff is gotten rid of...

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Everyone I know that has seen the Golden and Silver age Catwoman in the purple dress & green cape couldn't believe it was actually Catwoman and none of them like that look. The same goes for when Catwoman started wearing the goggles and work boots. I've heard nothing but complaints from friends, family, coworkers, etc regarding both of those costumes. And I feel the same. Everyone has even commented that Catwoman looks terrible in Injustice and Injustice 2. I hear nothing but complaints about these costumes from the people around me so I can't help but to think this is how most of the general public feels about them too. It's time for a costume that accentuates her beauty, sexy appeal, and aids her as a nimble gymnast and martial artist. Joelle Jones's Catwoman art is pretty edgy and the wedding dress is a little gothic so if Catwoman gets a new design by Jones it will likely have more edgy detail and patterns.


During the 1970s when Catwoman was in the blue costume people didn't like that one either so in Batman #256 there was a page with Catwoman in several costumes and they  asked which costume made her look the best. 
Apparently the purple dress and green cape won out because that was the costume Catwoman wore for the rest of the 1970s, starting with Batman #266, August 1975 and into the 1980s where in Batman #406, April 1987, 
Catwoman started wearing the grey jammies and cut all her hair off in the Batman:Year One story.  So that was a 12 year span where Catwoman was wearing the 1940s/1950s costume again.

Batman 256_096.jpg

Batman266-08.jpg

Batman406-21YearOne-3BlackDawn.jpg

----------


## Starrius

I have been wondering about the term, Gothic

How and when did Gothic which is a word pertaining to particular Germanic tribes (Visigoths,Ostrogoths) become to mean something else?

----------


## Caivu

> I have been wondering about the term, Gothic
> 
> How and when did Gothic which is a word pertaining to particular Germanic tribes (Visigoths,Ostrogoths) become to mean something else?


It became a word used to mean "not Classical" in about the 17th and 18th centuries, and became associated with the sort of aesthetic of such things (dramatic, violent, eerie, macabe, etc.).

----------


## WontonGirl

Back to Catwoman..

As far as Mainstream Media fans; the Black suit costume is what people tend to be familiar with. Gamers, depending on the Game, also are familiar with versions of the Purple Catwoman suit. 

But I think if you had a Batman movie, where Catwoman debuted and did the entire movie in a Purple dress? That would be a problem for a lot of people. 

As far as Comics go, look, it's 2018. At THIS point in time and history, she's most going to be in a tight suit. Back in the 40's - early 80's, it was more traditional for women (and female comic characters) to were dresses and skirts. With the Batman show, because of the fact that it was Camp, her being in the pantsuit also made since, it was the 60's and women were wearing those types of pants. 

So after all that, I just don't think that Purple Dress and Cape are coming back. You can like it and even hope it dose BUT don't expect it too.

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## WontonGirl

> 


This one has been getting a lot of retweets on Twitter. 

That and the Greg Capullo sketch he did. He deleted it once but then put it right back up.

----------


## Restingvoice

What's wrong with the goggles? I think they make sense especially if they have night vision. 

Okay, so she can fight but the all black suit still fits better with a rooftop jumping thief. It just needs a more realistic material, not latex like some artist make them. It's hard to be acrobatic in those.

----------


## DIVINITY

> This one has been getting a lot of retweets on Twitter. 
> 
> That and the Greg Capullo sketch he did. He deleted it once but then put it right back up.


Yea, I love Ben Olivers art....

The earring was a nice touch....

----------


## tbgo

> What's wrong with the goggles? I think they make sense especially if they have night vision. 
> 
> Okay, so she can fight but the all black suit still fits better with a rooftop jumping thief. It just needs a more realistic material, not latex like some artist make them. It's hard to be acrobatic in those.


The goggles are ugly and have been around far too long. They need to streamline her. This is a comic, not reality. She needs an overhaul and something eye-popping. This ugly costume of hers bores the public.

----------


## gregpersons

> The goggles are ugly and have been around far too long. They need to streamline her. This is a comic, not reality. She needs an overhaul and something eye-popping. This ugly costume of hers bores the public.


Says who? It's a great costume.

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## Restingvoice

> The goggles are ugly and have been around far too long. They need to streamline her. This is a comic, not reality. She needs an overhaul and something eye-popping. This ugly costume of hers bores the public.


Right. The public...

----------


## Huntsman1117

> The goggles are ugly and have been around far too long. They need to streamline her. This is a comic, not reality. She needs an overhaul and something eye-popping. This ugly costume of hers bores the public.


Agreed. Everyone I showed Catwoman to in 2001 said, "Ew, what's up with the bug eyes?" That was my immediate reaction as well but I wanted other people's honest opinion. Everyone hated her work boots as well. They all comment, "that's not sexy or very pretty." I continued to hate the look and bland theme of the comic more & more in 2001 so I stopped reading the 2001 series around issue #7. I bought the trade collections years later after I had gotten over the disgust. I had collected the entire 90's series up to the point that it got an awful new artist and writer. I hated it when Jim Balent redesigned her costume in 1999, cutting her hair, modifying her mask to cover her nose, added whiskers and a tail. And sure enough, that's when her sales started to drop off the Top 100 comics sales list, so I know I wasn't the only one who hated the changes.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Agreed. Everyone I showed Catwoman to in 2001 said, "Ew, what's up with the bug eyes?" That was my immediate reaction as well but I wanted other people's honest opinion. Everyone hated her work boots as well. They all comment, "that's not sexy or very pretty." I continued to hate the look and bland theme of the comic more & more in 2001 so I stopped reading the 2001 series around issue #7. I bought the trade collections years later after I had gotten over the disgust. I had collected the entire 90's series up to the point that it got an awful new artist and writer. I hated it when Jim Balent redesigned her costume in 1999, cutting her hair, modifying her mask to cover her nose, added whiskers and a tail. And sure enough, that's when her sales started to drop off the Top 100 comics sales list, so I know I wasn't the only one who hated the changes.


Haha. I see what you mean by bug eyes. It's just the art style though. When it's drawn by Jim Lee, Adam Hughes, Fabok, Janin, Jones or similar artist that's more realistic, they look good. Fine, at least. 
OCT010586._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

I don't like the one with the tail and whiskers either.

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## reni344

I can't wait for this statue I can't find the one of Selina by herself but I will happily take this one.

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## HandofPrometheus

The goggles are only bug eyes when Cooke drawn it. Many artist today draw it sleek and less bulky.

Whatever her new costume is it's going to be tough to beat the one she's wearing right now.

----------


## TheCape

> 


Damm, that title is pretty accurate  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Frontier

> 


Wow. Hard to top Adam Huges when it comes to drawing Selina  :Big Grin: .

Although it kind of gives off an Amanda Conner vibe...



> Damm, that title is pretty accurate .


Too true...

----------


## Celgress

> 


classy and hot all in one  :Cool:  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Winterboy

Cat. Woman. by Patrick Zircher.  :Smile: 

CATWOMAN .jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Cat. Woman. by Patrick Zircher. 
> 
> Attachment 64712


And in the BTAS costume! Awesome  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Celgress

> Cat. Woman. by Patrick Zircher. 
> 
> Attachment 64712


Batman the Animated Series Catwoman is perhaps my favorite rendition of the character in terms of both costume and characterization, very nice.  :Cool:

----------


## areuyellingatmee

> Cat. Woman. by Patrick Zircher. 
> 
> Attachment 64712


AWESOME!! That is how Catwoman should look.....IMO of course  :Smile:

----------


## tbgo

> The goggles are only bug eyes when Cooke drawn it. Many artist today draw it sleek and less bulky.
> 
> Whatever her new costume is it's going to be tough to beat the one she's wearing right now.


The boring one that doesnt sell? Anything with beat the mess shes wearing now.

----------


## Starrius

> AWESOME!! That is how Catwoman should look.....IMO of course


I'd like to see a suit like that in purple.

----------


## The tall man

So if Bruce were to die who would inherit the vast Wayne estate/fortune? Would it to Selina(wife) or Damien(son), this is if Bruce did not have a will drawn up.

----------


## Armor of God

Damian probably has greater personal wealth than his father from his mothers side LOL. The only thing he'll care about is the mantle of Batman, that's what he wants not the money.

----------


## Katana500

> So if Bruce were to die who would inherit the vast Wayne estate/fortune? Would it to Selina(wife) or Damien(son), this is if Bruce did not have a will drawn up.


Arent Adopted Children equally ranked in regards to wills? So whoever Bruce adopted would also get a share. Well atleast thats the law here, I guess American Law is different. 

I think both a wife and child would inherit a share of it. Its not always 100% to one person.

----------


## Starrius

> Arent Adopted Children equally ranked in regards to wills? So whoever Bruce adopted would also get a share. Well atleast thats the law here, I guess American Law is different. 
> 
> I think both a wife and child would inherit a share of it. Its not always 100% to one person.


I think Dick and Tim would get a share too.

----------


## klynn

> So if Bruce were to die who would inherit the vast Wayne estate/fortune? Would it to Selina(wife) or Damien(son), this is if Bruce did not have a will drawn up.


If there was no will then I believe Selina would inherit everything (that is whatever is left after the IRS gets its share  :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## Starrius

> If there was no will then I believe Selina would inherit everything (that is whatever is left after the IRS gets its share )


shrugs
billionaires get nice tax cuts though

----------


## Punisher007

I'd imagine that Bruce would make sure that Selina, Dick, Tim, Damian, Jason, and Alfred would all get a share.  Maybe Cassandra as well, and either Selina or Alfred would get Wayne Manor.  And then the rest would go to various charities and humanitarian projects.

----------


## WonderScott

> Cat. Woman. by Patrick Zircher. 
> 
> Attachment 64712


Wow. That's a great rendition of the BTAS Catwoman. I like it and it's Siamese cat influence and it definitely played off of Selina's shades of grey morality in the series. This is the only time I've truly appreciated her wearing grey.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So if Bruce were to die who would inherit the vast Wayne estate/fortune? Would it to Selina(wife) or Damien(son), this is if Bruce did not have a will drawn up.


He's gonna divide inheritance equally with everyone in the family. Selina, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Alfred, and if this is Post Crisis, Cassandra.  He's that type of guy who doesn't say anything to your face but suddenly buys you a house if he found out you're homeless. So I can't see him doing anything less.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damian probably has greater personal wealth than his father from his mothers side LOL. The only thing he'll care about is the mantle of Batman, that's what he wants not the money.


he spent it on nobody to saave her from deathroke

----------


## Miles To Go

In today's JL, they had Selina react to Jessica's kiss with Bruce.

Won't spoil, but it's pretty funny, and _very_ "Selina"

----------


## Armor of God

And Priest's JL is now the first and only title outside of Batman that has acknowledged the engagement.

----------


## klynn

> In today's JL, they had Selina react to Jessica's kiss with Bruce.
> 
> Won't spoil, but it's pretty funny, and _very_ "Selina"


Please spoil!

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Please spoil!


There's nothing to spoil. She was completely dismissive of it. Of course the whole thing made so little sense I really don't think even Priest himself knew what to make of it.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> There's nothing to spoil. She was completely dismissive of it. Of course the whole thing made so little sense I really don't think even Priest himself knew what to make of it.


That's not how I read it.  The jist of it is Jessica shows up at the manor to talk to Bruce about the kiss and what it may mean.  You can tell she's really bad at this sort of thing because she shows up with balloons and champagne.  As she reherses what to say to Bruce, Selina answers the door, introduces herself, informs her she already knows about the kiss and invites her in.   Jess may be a green lantern, but Selina has all the power in the scene.  I kinda felt bad for Jessica, but at the same time, Go Selina!

----------


## dietrich

> That's not how I read it.  The jist of it is Jessica shows up at the manor to talk to Bruce about the kiss and what it may mean.  You can tell she's really bad at this sort of thing because she shows up with balloons and champagne.  As she reherses what to say to Bruce, Selina answers the door, introduces herself, informs her she already knows about the kiss and invites her in.   Jess may be a green lantern, but Selina has all the power in the scene.  I kinda felt bad for Jessica, but at the same time, Go Selina!


*Jess may be a green lantern, but Selina has all the power in the scene*
Burn!

----------


## CryNotWolf

> That's not how I read it.  The jist of it is Jessica shows up at the manor to talk to Bruce about the kiss and what it may mean.  You can tell she's really bad at this sort of thing because she shows up with balloons and champagne.  As she reherses what to say to Bruce, Selina answers the door, introduces herself, informs her she already knows about the kiss and invites her in.   Jess may be a green lantern, but Selina has all the power in the scene.  I kinda felt bad for Jessica, but at the same time, Go Selina!


I fail to see at what point my comment was contradicted.

----------


## Restingvoice

Next on Batman
Dbep_WKVwAAbtcG.jpg

----------


## Frontier

_Batman Ninja_ Clip:

----------


## Restingvoice

> _Batman Ninja_ Clip:


Wow. They really go _moe_ bait for Catwoman. The cat bell, big boobs, baby face and almost _nya_ mouth :3

----------


## nonsense man

I hope selina is younger than bruce so if that is the case there is no romantic attachment at all between them thank you if that is the case japan.  If they have her dating jason instead that could be interesting or having a girlfriend as well that is acceptable

----------


## Starrius

> I hope selina is younger than bruce so if that is the case there is no romantic attachment at all between them thank you if that is the case japan.  If they have her dating jason instead that could be interesting or having a girlfriend as well that is acceptable


how much younger?

----------


## Restingvoice

It's Japan. Younger is _not_ gonna stop them from pairing her with Batman. XD

----------


## TheCape

> It's Japan. Younger is _not_ gonna stop them from pairing her with Batman. XD


Lol, that's truth, just look my profile photo  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

> Lol, that's truth, just look my profile photo .


Ah! LightHope! I haven't played it but I know about the ship XD

----------


## TheCape

> Ah! LightHope! I haven't played it but I know about the ship XD


Niether did i, but i watched the story on youtube  :Big Grin: . (althought to left things clear i only ship then when he is an adult, no shota for me ).

----------


## WontonGirl

This past Wednesday, April 25th was the 78th Anniversary of the Batman comic and of course, the Catwoman character! She made her first appearance in Batman #1 (1940). 

DbqUmYHU8AA-yGF.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Dick Grayson received his "wedding invitation". And of course it's not the actual invitation, just a checklist of all the DC Wedding stories coming up. 

DbofzkAW4AImI4E.jpg

----------


## Caivu

This article contains an interesting bit:




> *A big part of that is delving into Catwoman's side of the story. Where's your head at with her?*
> 
> I think I make a lot of mistakes when I write Catwoman. I think I write her too idealized, too perfect. [Writer/artist] Joelle Jones actually came to me and we started talking about Catwoman, and she said "Don't forget, she's a burglar. She robs people. She's dangerous." She's not just super-perfect, Batman's idealized version of a person. She's her own person, she makes horrible mistakes, and she makes incredible comebacks from those mistakes. And you have to keep that in mind. That this is a very broken person. She's a survivor, she didn't know her parents, she raised herself on the streets of Gotham—the worst city in the history of fictional cities—and she somehow rose up to become someone who could hang out with both the Joker and Batman, who could walk in both worlds. I love writing that character, but you always have to be careful that you don't perfection-ize her or something. You have to make her as flawed or as cool as a real person.

----------


## Frontier

> This article contains an interesting bit:


Well, I guess if anything this might give us a sense of Jones' take on Catwoman ahead of her run.

----------


## nonsense man

Well at least someone gets Selina I can see she will be in good hands with Joelle Jones.  Wish some other writer will rescue the main bat book as well.  I guess the batman in the JL is the one in character now

----------


## sakuyamons

18DF7C3E-051A-40E5-B78C-EC5E98ED95D7.jpg

]. CATWOMAN/TWEETY AND SYLVESTER SPECIAL #1
Written by GAIL SIMONE, with art by INAKI MIRANDA
Backup story written by SHEA FONTANA, with art by WALTER CARZON
Cover by EMANUELA LUPACCHINO
In his relentless pursuit of Tweety, Sylvester suddenly finds himself with a new, human ally—Catwoman! Tweety then realizes that he’s going to need some help too, and recruits a super-hero of his own, Black Canary! It isn’t long before the scale of the conflict begins to get out of control and suddenly there’s a full-scale war between cats and birds that threatens to take over all of Gotham.

----------


## Frontier

> 18DF7C3E-051A-40E5-B78C-EC5E98ED95D7.jpg
> 
> ]. CATWOMAN/TWEETY AND SYLVESTER SPECIAL #1
> Written by GAIL SIMONE, with art by INAKI MIRANDA
> Backup story written by SHEA FONTANA, with art by WALTER CARZON
> Cover by EMANUELA LUPACCHINO
> In his relentless pursuit of Tweety, Sylvester suddenly finds himself with a new, human ally—Catwoman! Tweety then realizes that he’s going to need some help too, and recruits a super-hero of his own, Black Canary! It isn’t long before the scale of the conflict begins to get out of control and suddenly there’s a full-scale war between cats and birds that threatens to take over all of Gotham.


This is so random but I think I love it  :Big Grin: .

----------


## klynn

> 18DF7C3E-051A-40E5-B78C-EC5E98ED95D7.jpg
> 
> ]. CATWOMAN/TWEETY AND SYLVESTER SPECIAL #1
> Written by GAIL SIMONE, with art by INAKI MIRANDA
> Backup story written by SHEA FONTANA, with art by WALTER CARZON
> Cover by EMANUELA LUPACCHINO
> In his relentless pursuit of Tweety, Sylvester suddenly finds himself with a new, human ally—Catwoman! Tweety then realizes that he’s going to need some help too, and recruits a super-hero of his own, Black Canary! It isn’t long before the scale of the conflict begins to get out of control and suddenly there’s a full-scale war between cats and birds that threatens to take over all of Gotham.


Selina.  Dinah.  Gail Simone.  Okey doke, let's do this!

----------


## Assam

> 18DF7C3E-051A-40E5-B78C-EC5E98ED95D7.jpg
> 
> ]. CATWOMAN/TWEETY AND SYLVESTER SPECIAL #1
> Written by GAIL SIMONE, with art by INAKI MIRANDA
> Backup story written by SHEA FONTANA, with art by WALTER CARZON
> Cover by EMANUELA LUPACCHINO
> In his relentless pursuit of Tweety, Sylvester suddenly finds himself with a new, human ally—Catwoman! Tweety then realizes that he’s going to need some help too, and recruits a super-hero of his own, Black Canary! It isn’t long before the scale of the conflict begins to get out of control and suddenly there’s a full-scale war between cats and birds that threatens to take over all of Gotham.


Yeah I'm definitely on board for this.

----------


## nonsense man

Makes sense because granny was never on sylvesters side always stuck for tweety even when he was doing nothing.  Would be halarious is if granny was black canary's real granny and ran the orphanage that selina grew up in as well.  Either way let the war begin though we all know either selina is going to abandon sylvester in the end or Canary and Tweety takes this one

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if they'll go for the obvious and label the story's title "The cat and the canary"  :Wink: ?

----------


## sakuyamons

> Makes sense because granny was never on sylvesters side always stuck for tweety even when he was doing nothing.  Would be halarious is if granny was black canary's real granny and ran the orphanage that selina grew up in as well.  Either way let the war begin though we all know either selina is going to abandon sylvester in the end or Canary and Tweety takes this one


Selina will take Sylvester to Wayne Mansion  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Restingvoice

> 18DF7C3E-051A-40E5-B78C-EC5E98ED95D7.jpg
> 
> ]. CATWOMAN/TWEETY AND SYLVESTER SPECIAL #1
> Written by GAIL SIMONE, with art by INAKI MIRANDA
> Backup story written by SHEA FONTANA, with art by WALTER CARZON
> Cover by EMANUELA LUPACCHINO
> In his relentless pursuit of Tweety, Sylvester suddenly finds himself with a new, human ally—Catwoman! Tweety then realizes that he’s going to need some help too, and recruits a super-hero of his own, Black Canary! It isn’t long before the scale of the conflict begins to get out of control and suddenly there’s a full-scale war between cats and birds that threatens to take over all of Gotham.


Oh that sounds hilarious and awesome

----------


## nonsense man

Sylvester always loses even when he is right and tweety started the fight whether in the old warner bros shorts or the sylvester and tweety mysteries he always gets the blame even if he is innocent.  I can see selina turning to the winning side which will be tweety's

----------


## Caivu

Here's the new costume design by Joëlle Jones:

IMG_20180521_110150.jpg

----------


## klynn

Big DC sale on Comixology this weekend.  Are either of the following books worth getting for Selina?  
- Batman: The Long Halloween.  
- Catwoman by Jim Balent (Catwoman (1993) #1-13)

----------


## CryNotWolf

> Big DC sale on Comixology this weekend.  Are either of the following books worth getting for Selina?  
> - Batman: The Long Halloween.  
> - Catwoman by Jim Balent (Catwoman (1993) #1-13)


The Long Halloween is worth it. It's a decent read but Tim Sale's art is nothing short of magnificent and he draws a great Selina. I am not a fan of the 90s Catwoman series, I don't like Balent's art and IMO the series peaks at mediocrity. But your mileage may vary.

----------


## Armor of God

I think the first few issues of the 90's series by Duffy were pretty cool.

----------


## Thirteen

> Big DC sale on Comixology this weekend.  Are either of the following books worth getting for Selina?  
> - Batman: The Long Halloween.  
> - Catwoman by Jim Balent (Catwoman (1993) #1-13)


The 1993 Duffy/Balent Catwoman series was pretty much straight adventure if a bit generically Bat-Adjacent character and those particular issues had the best of Balent's work before he gave in to his more cheesecake leanings.  Its too bad the cut off is at #13 as it runs right up to, but does not include, THE BEST of the Balent issues: CAT FILE
BUT TOTALLY WORTH READING, ESPECIALLY AT A DISCOUNT.

----------


## klynn

> The Long Halloween is worth it. It's a decent read but Tim Sale's art is nothing short of magnificent and he draws a great Selina. I am not a fan of the 90s Catwoman series, I don't like Balent's art and IMO the series peaks at mediocrity. But your mileage may vary.





> The 1993 Duffy/Balent Catwoman series was pretty much straight adventure if a bit generically Bat-Adjacent character and those particular issues had the best of Balent's work before he gave in to his more cheesecake leanings.  Its too bad the cut off is at #13 as it runs right up to, but does not include, THE BEST of the Balent issues: CAT FILE
> BUT TOTALLY WORTH READING, ESPECIALLY AT A DISCOUNT.


Thanks for the input. At this sale I might as well give both a try.

----------


## Miles To Go

More Batman#50 variants

https://www.newsarama.com/40157-arti...-variants.html

----------


## Frontier



----------


## Celgress

> 


So very elegant.  :Cool:  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Caivu

Another variant, this time by Alé Garza. It hasn't been fully revealed yet, so I pieced the available parts together:

De3kiQlUEAEZo1k.jpg

It called the"Bridesmaids Variant." Harley and Ivy are obviously here. Maybe Barbara on the left?

----------


## Miles To Go



----------


## Miles To Go



----------


## Frontier

> 


And the new costume is already getting its own variants  :Wink: .

----------


## Restingvoice

> 


Artgerm, you draw good, but I can't help thinking she's gonna break her leg the next second dangling from a roof with her whip twisting around her like that 

I like the illusion that the end of the whip looks like a cat's tail though

----------


## WontonGirl

Hey guys! The variants are coming out on Twitter really fast, sometimes 3 a day! Here is one from Natali Sanders, exclusive for Comic Market Street

De8vps4WsAUb5XF.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Another Variant by Jason Fabok 

Jason Fabok.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Another Variant by Neal Adams (yes that Neal Adams) 

Neal Adams.jpg

----------


## Miles To Go

From DC Nation#1




> "I am excited to let Selina stretch her legs again and undertake the challenge of what her new role is in the criminal underworld, given all the things that have been going on with her in the last year, I'm not sure if you heard about any of that...but marriage is a big step"

----------


## Diammandis

> Another variant, this time by Alé Garza. It hasn't been fully revealed yet, so I pieced the available parts together:
> 
> Attachment 66661
> 
> It called the"Bridesmaids Variant." Harley and Ivy are obviously here. Maybe Barbara on the left?


heres the full variant

----------


## Caivu

So her bridemaids are Harley, Ivy, and... uh... 
 :Confused:

----------


## Confuzzled

> So her bridemaids are Harley, Ivy, and... uh...


Extreme right one's hair looks like Holly's. Extreme left is Selina's sister Maggie... I guess?

----------


## Diammandis

> So her bridemaids are Harley, Ivy, and... uh...


that's exactly what i said when i saw it...i have no idea who the other 2 are but I'm guessing the one on the right is Holly I'm not sure about the other one

----------


## Jovos2099

I think one of them could be either Lois lane or Wonder woman.

----------


## Frontier

My first guess is the long-haired brunette is Lois.

The blonde on the far right looks too much like Brubaker era Holly to be a coincidence.

----------


## Caivu

The artist has confirmed it's Lois and Holly.

----------


## WontonGirl

Right but these aren't necessary her "bridsmaids". This is just a cover for the store's exclusive. 

Tom said we will find out who all the Wedding Party is in Issue #50.

----------


## CryNotWolf

Beautiful Selina art by Joshau Middleton. Probably my favorite variant for Batman #50 along with Jock's.

DfG4bNsWkAA32bg.jpg large.jpg

----------


## Mutant God

> heres the full variant


I would have thought her bridemaids would be either random female criminals/prostitutes shes owes money to or just her cats lol.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I would have thought her bridemaids would be either random female criminals/prostitutes shes owes money to or just her cats lol.


These are NOT her bridesmaids, lol!

----------


## WontonGirl

Heres a few variants featuring Selina Kyle or Catwoman, all store exclusives

Nick Derrington variants for Midtown Comics

DB53AC40-D770-4A72-8650-6A3FD836D83F.jpg888A1540-9144-4923-9FE6-DF5FF2D884AE.jpgC5A527D5-61E4-4DB5-8540-63AD46E5D06D.jpg

----------


## Mutant God

> These are NOT her bridesmaids, lol!


Who? The Gotham Sirens, The criminals, The cats?

----------


## WontonGirl

> Who? The Gotham Sirens, The criminals, The cats?


I’m talking about all four of the women on this cover. Covers do not always reflect the contents.

And King said we will find out who the Wedding Party is in Batman 50 and not a moment sooner, lol!

----------


## WontonGirl

Jae Lee variant cover for Dynamic Forces 

11AA60BB-2EE7-4ED0-8C18-216DC4D1C72B.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Jim Lee Variant Cover for Batman 50, exclusively for Midtown Comics.

FE23F2F3-4492-46DB-B20A-27D7F99B4118.jpg

----------


## dietrich

> heres the full variant


Ivy looks amazing here.

----------


## WontonGirl

Did you see the one with Damian on the cover?

----------


## dietrich

> Did you see the one with Damian on the cover?


There's one with Damian? I wasn't aware. I'll keep an eye out.

----------


## WontonGirl

> There's one with Damian? I wasn't aware. I'll keep an eye out.


No I will post it now. There are over 30 variants already out. I was thinking about starting a thread for them.

----------


## WontonGirl

Batman 50 Variant by Frank Cho for 4ColorBeast. 3 connecting covers.

EA0749D1-505A-4D2F-8D7E-39834458B574.jpg

----------


## dietrich

> No I will post it now. There are over 30 variants already out. I was thinking about starting a thread for them.


I've been struggling to keep up with all the Variants. It's gonna be a bitch figuring out which ones to order and I really enjoy collecting Variants.

----------


## dietrich

> Batman 50 Variant by Frank Cho for 4ColorBeast. 3 connecting covers.
> 
> EA0749D1-505A-4D2F-8D7E-39834458B574.jpg


I like these [The family minus jay] but they are not weddingy enough if you know what I mean. I love the ones with Cat in elegant  frocks.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I like these [The family minus jay] but they are not weddingy enough if you know what I mean. I love the ones with Cat in elegant  frocks.


Yeah but there are so many variants that they are trying to make some for different fans to enjoy. Like buy one and collect one.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I've been struggling to keep up with all the Variants. It's gonna be a bitch figuring out which ones to order and I really enjoy collecting Variants.


Yeah I’m going to start the thread soon. Most likely next week but we are keeping better threads and tabs on them on a Twitter. I am posting what I can in the Catwoman thread.

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah I’m going to start the thread soon. Most likely next week but we are keeping better threads and tabs on them on a Twitter. I am posting what I can in the Catwoman thread.


A thread with them would be very helpful. I've seen some on Reddit and other places but to have them contained on the one site will definitely make it easier for fans to compare and make a choice.

I swear every time I think I've found the best another gets released

----------


## WontonGirl

> A thread with them would be very helpful. I've seen some on Reddit and other places but to have them contained on the one site will definitely make it easier for fans to compare and make a choice.
> 
> I swear every time I think I've found the best another gets released


Yes, I’m like that too.

----------


## WontonGirl

Another variant for Batman 50.

7402F6F8-B0E5-41CE-955A-DA6510FA573B.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Here is the 2nd version of that variant. 

3E7187DA-EEF4-421C-A149-9953580E8AE6.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Another variant cover.....

CAF90983-2521-4654-B193-622CFCA341C0.jpg

----------


## WontonGirl

Joker version of the Juskos variant... 

7B86B92F-E080-4D4A-AFC3-5BEC1F7E50BD.jpg

----------


## Miles To Go

Selina appears on the cover of "Heroes In Crisis", but at the very back and far away from Bruce, whilst you can see some of the other current pairings are side by side (including Dick getting a little snug with Kori)



Not sure if that's a telling sigh or not

----------


## Miles To Go

The great Alex Ross joins the Batman#50 cover roster

----------


## nonsense man

If any couple needs marriage counseling is bat/cat and physcological conselling for bruce the way tom king writes him

----------


## tbgo

> The great Alex Ross joins the Batman#50 cover roster


That's awesome!

----------


## Miles To Go

> CATWOMAN #3 
> 
> Written, art and cover by Joelle Jones, variant cover by Stanley Lau.
> 
> The secret shot-caller who's been borrowing Catwoman's M.O. for a series of crimes steps out of the shadows in this issue, and her "secret origin" is unlike anything Selina's run into before! Meanwhile, the police close in on Catwoman as well, as they believe she killed a cop during one of the crimes she's been framed for. With nowhere to go and no one to turn to, Catwoman's running out of her nine lives fast!
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Sept. 5.


http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori.../18/dcsept.htm

----------


## Starrius

> Selina appears on the cover of "Heroes In Crisis", but at the very back and far away from Bruce, whilst you can see some of the other current pairings are side by side (including Dick getting a little snug with Kori)
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if that's a telling sigh or not



I try not read into stuff

she's not a heroine any way
she's an anti-heroine

----------


## Miles To Go



----------


## tbgo

Issue 1:

----------


## klynn

I hate word balloons on covers and these ones on _Catwoman_ #1 are particularly bad.  They nearly destroy what the art is perfectly reflecting about the ambiguity of her wedded status.  A simple caption at the bottom could have warned about reading _Batman_ #50 first.  What an annoying editorial decision.  (I wonder how Joelle feels about this)

----------


## Dzetoun

> Selina appears on the cover of "Heroes In Crisis", but at the very back and far away from Bruce, whilst you can see some of the other current pairings are side by side (including Dick getting a little snug with Kori)
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if that's a telling sigh or not


Probably just a sign that Catwoman doesn't play a major role in the story.

----------


## tbgo

> I hate word balloons on covers and these ones on _Catwoman_ #1 are particularly bad.  They nearly destroy what the art is perfectly reflecting about the ambiguity of her wedded status.  A simple caption at the bottom could have warned about reading _Batman_ #50 first.  What an annoying editorial decision.  (I wonder how Joelle feels about this)


Using the old logo looks tragic, too.

----------


## Deffinition

always preferred her over everyone else, close second would be Talia but yeah Catwoman alllll day

----------


## Mia

I haven't touch CW since Pheiffer left (yes that long). But on a whim I bought Batman volume 5. I was shocked! What happened to the Selina Kyle I was introduced to via Chuck Dixon? Dawyn Cooke, Ed Brubker, Will Pheiffer?  The Selina Kyle---the bon-vivant, the good time Charlotte, the woman who had a "down with the man attitude" Who was the original starter of Occupy Wallstreet? The woman who had a zest for life?  The woman who viewed men as her personal toys (or tools)? Who personified making yourself #1? Where is that Selina who inspired me to say "yes to life". Who is this silly woman who sounds like a contestant on the bachelor?
 Over the years I've gotten rid of all my long  boxes. But I still have my Catwoman run from Brubaker to Pheiffer. This honestly is a travesty to one of the finest women in comics.




> 


Now this is the Selina I love and remember!!

----------


## nonsense man

agree with you on that is selina in a nutshell that is why this marriage makes no sense to me

----------


## Miles To Go

> I haven't touch CW since Pheiffer left (yes that long). But on a whim I bought Batman volume 5. I was shocked! What happened to the Selina Kyle I was introduced to via Chuck Dixon? Dawyn Cooke, Ed Brubker, Will Pheiffer?  The Selina Kyle---the bon-vivant, the good time Charlotte, the woman who had a "down with the man attitude" Who was the original starter of Occupy Wallstreet? The woman who had a zest for life?  The woman who viewed men as her personal toys (or tools)? Who personified making yourself #1? Where is that Selina who inspired me to say "yes to life". Who is this silly woman who sounds like a contestant on the bachelor?


Umm...still the same Selina?

----------


## Celgress

> always preferred her over everyone else, close second would be Talia but yeah Catwoman alllll day


I couldn't agree more, on both counts.

----------


## Rac7d*

Will catwoman get pregnant?

----------


## Celgress

> Will catwoman get pregnant?


I doubt she will anytime soon marriage or no marriage.

----------


## Miles To Go

I think Tom said she'd be reconnecting with her daughter from Pre-Flashpoint at some point.

And we know she has a daughter who becomes Batwoman.

----------


## nonsense man

the only way that makes sense if something tragic happens to the baby adoptive parents that will be the only reason selina will interfere in her daughters life in the first place.  So they are going to retcon that is was bruces after all as well. besides my first point is the only  way I can see her even wanting to see her daughter she gave up for adoption that the childs adopted parents were killed or something.  So they are going to do a the same they did for lois and clark and give them back their pre flashpoint memories to make this marriage make sense or something.

----------


## JimmySpectre

NY Times article has spoiled Batman #50 (SPOILERS)

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/0...be-batman.html

----------


## yohyoi

Opinions on King is about to change in 3... 2... 1...

----------


## dietrich

> Opinions on King is about to change in 3... 2... 1...


Miaow

10 char

----------


## yohyoi

> Miaow
> 
> 10 char


Bat...

Cat...

Bat...

Cat...

*repeat 10 times

Bat... I'm...

THE END

----------


## nonsense man

of his run I only liked three issues the double date ones with lois and clark and the annual because that was an out of continuity happy ending story.  That one made sense the rest of it did not.  The wedding was just a ruse so people would not get mad at him for making batman incompetent and weak in his own book

----------


## nonsense man

I think the catwoman series will be pretty good but I will avoid batman until king is off it

----------


## BatGlamorous

This new series could be a great opportunity to re-introduce Slam and for us to finally get the wedding that god intended.

----------


## dietrich

> No I will post it now. There are over 30 variants already out. I was thinking about starting a thread for them.


In the end I got a friend who lived in the states to go pick this one up and post it to me

----------


## Starrius

> This new series could be a great opportunity to re-introduce Slam and for us to finally get the wedding that god intended.


wedding of Selina and Slam?

----------


## adamwarlock82

> I'll always love Selina/Catwoman. If/when the book gets back on track, I'll be glad to start picking it up again.


Picture STOLEN!! and TY btw

----------


## Miles To Go

> This new series could be a great opportunity to re-introduce Slam and for us to finally get the wedding that god intended.


No thanks.

----------


## nonsense man

Yes either with Slam or Kiko I do not care who she marries if at all man or woman as long as it is not bruce

----------


## BatGlamorous

It's anyone's guess what's going on in this new book lol

This reminds me of Valentine's run, which was good but never quite nailed down what it wanted to be.

----------


## tbgo

Loved the second issue! My only complaint is that it isn't longer. Love the new villain!! For anyone who's read Joelle's "Lady Killer", you know this book is gonna be good!

----------


## Koriand'r

Catwoman #2 is ridiculously good! The writing and art are amazing and I wouldn't change a thing.

----------


## kjn

What I really like about Joelle's art here is that she manages something which very few other superhero artists can do: draw different female faces. Even artists who are great at drawing real female bodies and making expressive female faces, like Nicola Scott and Cliff Chiang, struggle with making the female faces different. But Joelle manages.

----------


## FBarnhill

Does anyone here hear Pfeiffers voice every time they read Catwoman? More than a quarter-century later and I still do.

----------


## Miles To Go

I'm not buying the book, but I did hear there's a cute moment in the book which shows Selina still treasures her engagement ring and doesn't want to part with it. That's pretty touching and gives me some hope for the future.

----------


## tbgo

> Does anyone here hear Pfeiffers voice every time they read Catwoman? More than a quarter-century later and I still do.


Joelle has been open about being heavily inspired by her.

----------


## klynn

I really enjoyed it.  Her internal dialogue at the beginning and the scene with the ring were heart breaking.  Jones has such a great handle on Selina I can't wait to see where this goes.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Top Ten for July

BATMAN #50
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #1
CAPTAIN AMERICA#1
DOOMSDAY CLOCK #6
SUPERMAN #1
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #2
X-23 #1
*CATWOMAN* #1
BATMAN #51
COSMIC GHOST RIDER #1


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/08...8-marketshare/

----------


## vitaminbee

I really am enjoying the new series... there’s just one thing that is kind of bugging me. I’m usually a fan of Allreds color work but it’s really not working for me here. The night scenes aren’t reading as night scenes. 



> Does anyone here hear Pfeiffer’s voice every time they read Catwoman? More than a quarter-century later and I still do.


I mean, she’s basically stolen exact shots from Batman Returns for issue 2 and her costume is basically the Returns one minus the ripped sections and the open armpits. I still don’t like that the gloves separate from the sleeves though.

----------


## FBarnhill

> Top Ten for July
> 
> BATMAN #50
> AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #1
> CAPTAIN AMERICA#1
> DOOMSDAY CLOCK #6
> SUPERMAN #1
> AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #2
> X-23 #1
> ...


5 DC, 5 Marvel. Balance.

----------


## Confuzzled

> 5 DC, 5 Marvel. *Balance.*


I mean, that's one way of spelling duopoly.

----------


## Armor of God

Never mind

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> 5 DC, 5 Marvel. Balance.


OTOH, 9 male characters, 1 female character.

----------


## kjn

> OTOH, 9 male characters, 1 female character.


Isn't X-23 a woman?

On the other hand, everyone is white…

----------


## Koriand'r

> I really am enjoying the new series... there’s just one thing that is kind of bugging me. I’m usually a fan of Allreds color work but it’s really not working for me here. The night scenes aren’t reading as night scenes. 
> 
> 
> I mean, she’s basically stolen exact shots from Batman Returns for issue 2 and her costume is basically the Returns one minus the ripped sections and the open armpits. I still don’t like that the gloves separate from the sleeves though.


I like that part, the short gloves and cutouts make an otherwise standard Catwoman costume look fresh and new.

----------


## FBarnhill

> Isn't X-23 a woman?
> 
> On the other hand, everyone is white…


Didn’t the creator confirm she’s a lesbian? If so, diversity?

----------


## Celgress

> Isn't X-23 a woman?
> 
> On the other hand, everyone is white…


Whatever sells, I don't buy comics based solely upon diversity rather what entertains me. For example, I love Miles Morales to death but find Riri Williams an annoying weak character. Similarly, part of the reason I plan on adding Superior Octopus to my pull list is Anna Maria Marconi. My decision is not based on Anna Maria being a little person but rather her being an intriguing, dynamic character with a love of science and a tell it like it is personality.

----------


## vitaminbee

> I like that part, the short gloves and cutouts make an otherwise standard Catwoman costume look fresh and new.


It just seems impractical to me. The sleeve feels like it should be connected to the glove. The rest is cool though. I love the mask change and no more goggles (though I loved the Cooke design when it was drawn properly... by Cooke/Stewart).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Isn't X-23 a woman?
> 
> On the other hand, everyone is white…


Sorry, don't read the book or know anything about it.  If it is a female character, cool.  Just nothing in the title that clued me in this was about a woman.  Okay, 2 females, 8 males. Still a large gap.

----------


## millernumber1

Anyone pick up Catwoman/Tweety and Sylvester this week? I thought it was really surprisingly delightful. Selina teams up with nearly every DC Cat and Bird-themed character, with Black Canary providing a strong supporting presence, and Simone provides a really clever plot backed by Inaki Miranda (who's become something of a go-to artist for Selina since his run on the title from #47-52, and returning with Batgirl #13).

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Did anyone else read the last issue? *spoilers:*
Maggie Kyle is back.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Huntsman1117

CATWOMAN #3 was pretty good, but Selina has been too slow and weak in this series, taking hits from novices.  I understand she is upset over Bruce and hasn't been sleeping. But she has faced much harder times and still maintained her speed, reflexes, and skills as a gymnast and martial artist.  But the artwork is great. I LOVE seeing her in her new costume. The writing is good, but I'd like it to pick up the pace. 

I like Joelle Jones, I enjoyed meeting her at the Heroes Convention, but I wish she would just do the art of the comic and have a better writer do the scripts and plotting.

----------


## Avi

Joelle Jones has created an interesting villain and I like her side characters. She has a similar vibe to Valentine I think. While I would like to see the story progress a bit faster as well, especially because every Issue gives limited story points to talk about, I tent to enjoy slow Catwoman arcs for whatever reason. The smoke bomb scene made me chuckle. It was stupid but just so unexpected.
As for the tease... I do wonder how that plays into the story and/or ungoing arcs. And what their relationship is at the moment. I guess *spoilers:*
Maggie
*end of spoilers* is her reason for being in Villa Hermosa.

----------


## kjn

> CATWOMAN #3 was pretty good, but Selina has been too slow and weak in this series, taking hits from novices.  I understand she is upset over Bruce and hasn't been sleeping. But she has faced much harder times and still maintained her speed, reflexes, and skills as a gymnast and martial artist.  But the artwork is great. I LOVE seeing her in her new costume. The writing is good, but I'd like it to pick up the pace. 
> 
> I like Joelle Jones, I enjoyed meeting her at the Heroes Convention, but I wish she would just do the art of the comic and have a better writer do the scripts and plotting.


Personally, I prefer it when these people show that they're still humanif they are outnumbered ten to one, they can still win, but will take hits, and those hits will have consequences.

I also like the focus on visual storytelling that Jones does; I actually think a lot of superhero comics ends up cluttered and hard to follow. And her way of presenting Creel's backstory was just genius, something that one really only can do in comics.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

That Artgem variant for #3!    :Embarrassment:  wowza

----------


## Armor of God

That Creel is one hideous old crone both internally and externally. Send Jason Todd after her or lock her up in Damian's dungeon or Pena Duro. That woman, argh, I've never felt such revulsion even reading Professor Pyg.

----------


## Rise

> That Artgem variant for #3!    wowza


His variant for #4 is even better.

----------


## juan678



----------


## Koriand'r

Just read #3, I'm getting everything I want from a Catwoman book. It's slick, stylish and expensive looking, like a September Vogue with random violence. 

I couldn't be happier.

----------


## Celgress

> 


LOL, how enticing...  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Huntsman1117

I hear that a different artist will be illustrating issues 6-10, the second arch of the book, with Jones still writing them. And Tom King said he is currently working with Joelle developing stories for Batman and Catwoman. There will be a reunion, and it sounds like a crossover.  He said the main theme of his entire 100-issue run on BATMAN is the relationship of Batman & Catwoman, and that Bane is the main villain.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

Just read issue #3 
I know that as a comic book reader we are expected to have a certain degree of suspension of disbelief and I do believe I have a healthy amount of that, but this comic really pushed me a little to much.

Catwoman, wearing a regular dress, not a costume with protection or anything like that, gets thrown off from a 4th floor, neck first right into the roof of a car and somehow she is fine and just got a couple of bruises.

hell no! 
She is not a cartoon character, she should be dead.

The backstory of the antagonist is equaly cartonish in the story's attept to try to make her as much evil as she can possibly get, however unlike other "pure evil" characters that Ihave read before I dont sense a particularly interesting motivation or capability on this character.
Was she able to do all of these crimes and get away with them because she was too smart to cover her tracks or because the family/police was way too stupid figure it out?

The art is pretty stylish and all kinds of good, no complains about it.

The only thing that even poke my interest in the story was the final page as I really want to know how this will play out considering the change on her backstory from Batman Eternal.

----------


## brer rabbit

Catwoman has a lot of great stories people should check out.

----------


## nonsense man

Even though I do not like the bat/cat stuff if king lets Jones do the heavy writing it will turn out better why because not only does she like catwoman I think she would write a better batman as well.

----------


## MajorHoy

There's something to be said for the simpler days . . .

----------


## riddler123

> There's something to be said for the simpler days . . .


I have been buying many of the villain anthologies such as BATMAN arkham: penguin/ riddler Mr Freeze etc.

I've been wondering if they will do a catwoman edition as technically she was never an arkham inmate but really deserves an anthology of her best stories.

----------


## Huntsman1117

CATWOMAN #2 ranked #15 in comic sales in August 2018. Not bad considering she was up against a lot of other major new series including Fantastic Four,  Spider-Man, Venom, & Punisher. Surprisingly BATMAN #52 & #53 were both in the top 5...I thought most people were dropping BATMAN based on the backlash of the wedding failure that I saw online. CATWOMAN #2 still outsold VENOM #5, CAPTAIN AMERICA #2, ACTION COMICS #1002, and AVENGERS #6, so I'd say that's an accomplishment considering she just stood Batman up at the altar.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> CATWOMAN #2 ranked #15 in comic sales in August 2018. Not bad considering she was up against a lot of other major new series including Fantastic Four,  Spider-Man, Venom, & Punisher. Surprisingly BATMAN #52 & #53 were both in the top 5...I thought most people were dropping BATMAN based on the backlash of the wedding failure that I saw online. CATWOMAN #2 still outsold VENOM #5, CAPTAIN AMERICA #2, ACTION COMICS #1002, and AVENGERS #6, so I'd say that's an accomplishment considering she just stood Batman up at the altar.


I think DC sort of missed the boat by waiting so long to give Catwoman a solo series after her run in New 52 ended.  Pretty sure Catwoman would have sold as well if not better than a lot of Rebirth books
DC introduced after New 52 ended.  Even the New 52 Catwoman outsold several other New 52 books. Not sure what their thinking was to not give Catwoman a solo book until now. The only thing I can
think of is DC wanted to let Tom King play around with Catwoman for a while and that would have interfered with a Catwoman solo book.

----------


## Frontier

Catwoman is back in focus on _DC Super Hero Girls_, albeit in a more criminal capacity:

----------


## signalman112

> There's something to be said for the simpler days . . .




Dave Stevens art work is the "Cats MEOW!".

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Catwoman is back in focus on _DC Super Hero Girls_, albeit in a more criminal capacity:


Are Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy villainous on SuperHero Girls? It looks like they are main characters. And it looks like Catwoman is a guest character who is always acting like a petty thief. Catwoman can be a more positive role-model than Quinn or Ivy, in that she's very independent and actually helps people. Quinn and Ivy are murderers.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Are Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy villainous on SuperHero Girls? It looks like they are main characters. And it looks like Catwoman is a guest character who is always acting like a petty thief. Catwoman can be a more positive role-model than Quinn or Ivy, in that she's very independent and actually helps people. Quinn and Ivy are murderers.


Harley and Ivy are heroes and mains. They are not murderers in this. Even in the comics the fact that Harley changed her ways is inspirational. Selina is a still a criminal. Harley is a positive strong female role model who is walking the road to redemption difficult as it might be. She is a survivor who rose above her abuser.  
They can all be role models just that Harley is way more popular, way more relevant [especially for the age group in question]. Ivy could just be aesthetics [her looks are more appealing to little kids] and her proximity to/friendship with the juggernut that is Harley Quinn.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Dave Stevens art work is the "Cats MEOW!".


I love the purple dress and green cape.  It's a shame they decided to "modernize" Catwoman by taking away the cape and putting her in a boring jumpsuit.  It's comic books, people. 
If Supergirl can fight crime in a cape and a skirt, why can't Catwoman commit crimes in a cape and a skirt?  I dream of the day when people stop trying to make comic book
characters "realistic" and put Catwoman back in her classic costume.

----------


## kjn

> They can all be role models just that Harley is way more popular, way more relevant [especially for the age group in question]. Ivy could just be aesthetics [her looks are more appealing to little kids] and her proximity to/friendship with the juggernut that is Harley Quinn.


Ivy also very much fills the bookish, nerdy, likes studying, and not that social niche. Catwoman doesn't really have the same natural niche there; Batgirl already fills largely the same role, and Harley and Ivy can contrast with the rest of the cast and doesn't need Catwoman as the straight man.

If I were to include Catwoman in Superher Girls I'd probably look into making her a mentor or teacher. I think she needs a fair bit of life experience to work as a character.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Ivy also very much fills the bookish, nerdy, likes studying, and not that social niche. Catwoman doesn't really have the same natural niche there; Batgirl already fills largely the same role, and Harley and Ivy can contrast with the rest of the cast and doesn't need Catwoman as the straight man.
> 
> If I were to include Catwoman in Superher Girls I'd probably look into making her a mentor or teacher. I think she needs a fair bit of life experience to work as a character.


Agree. The idea of Ivy fitting a particular type that young kids can identify with and that's popular with kids shows makes a great deal of sense.

----------


## Caivu

> If Supergirl can fight crime in a cape and a skirt, why can't Catwoman commit crimes in a cape and a skirt?


I'm genuinely interested in hearing an argument for Selina dressing like that while on the job that doesn't boil down to "because sexy" or "because comics". Mostly because I don't think there is one.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I'm genuinely interested in hearing an argument for Selina dressing like that while on the job that doesn't boil down to "because sexy" or "because comics". Mostly because I don't think there is one.


Similar to fighting crime in stilettos or a thong it's empowering for women and a way for them to own their sexuality. Or so say the men who draw comics.

----------


## Frontier

> Are Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy villainous on SuperHero Girls? It looks like they are main characters. And it looks like Catwoman is a guest character who is always acting like a petty thief. Catwoman can be a more positive role-model than Quinn or Ivy, in that she's very independent and actually helps people. Quinn and Ivy are murderers.


Harley and Ivy are heroes. 

Selina attends Super Hero High and has helped out a few times, but she's also been shown as not being above theft and burglary when she wants something, but it is a little jarring seeing her treated like a typical villain-of-the-week, right down to getting arrested at the end of the episode like a common crook. 



> *Ivy also very much fills the bookish, nerdy, likes studying, and not that social niche*. Catwoman doesn't really have the same natural niche there; Batgirl already fills largely the same role, and Harley and Ivy can contrast with the rest of the cast and doesn't need Catwoman as the straight man.


This version of Ivy certainly does, but she's also a fair big departure from how Poison Ivy is traditionally depicted. 

I feel like Catwoman's niche here feels fitting for the kind of teen Superhero setting DCSHG is, where she's athletic but also someone who enjoys being a bit of a bad girl (but with a good heart).



> *I'm genuinely interested in hearing an argument for Selina dressing like that while on the job that doesn't boil down to "because sexy" or "because comics"*. Mostly because I don't think there is one.


But that's the reasoning behind most of her costumes  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## kjn

> This version of Ivy certainly does, but she's also a fair big departure from how Poison Ivy is traditionally depicted. 
> 
> I feel like Catwoman's niche here feels fitting for the kind of teen Superhero setting DCSHG is, where she's athletic but also someone who enjoys being a bit of a bad girl (but with a good heart).


As for Ivy, it depends, and I'd say that there is little of the original Ivy from the 60s in the Ivy of today, but I can see the lines between DCSHG Ivy and, say, the Ivy of _Cycle of Life and Death_. She has more confidence dealing with people, but is still not that good at dealing with them.

Trouble for Catwoman in that niche is that the show already has Harley Quinn there, and to a degree also Batgirl (in that Batgirl is athletic, competitive, and lacks powers).

----------


## Frontier

> As for Ivy, it depends, and I'd say that there is little of the original Ivy from the 60s in the Ivy of today, but I can see the lines between DCSHG Ivy and, say, the Ivy of _Cycle of Life and Death_. She has more confidence dealing with people, but is still not that good at dealing with them.


I mean, she's generally depicted as a plant-based seductress more or less from her inception and in her most popular depictions, but they've moved away from that to some degree in trying to make her more of a "hero-type". 

Ivy's generally never been depicted as a wallflower, or at least Poison Ivy hasn't, but she has leaned into her science-side more. 



> Trouble for Catwoman in that niche is that the show already has Harley Quinn there, and to a degree also Batgirl (in that Batgirl is athletic, competitive, and lacks powers).


I guess that's why they lean more into her dubious morals here compared to every other villain turned hero on the show.

----------


## iron chimp

Loving the new series. They pack a good chunk of story into each issue and still have room for some great silent pages. The plot has me hooked and the book looks lovely. Good job everyone!

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Ivy also very much fills the bookish, nerdy, likes studying, and not that social niche. Catwoman doesn't really have the same natural niche there; Batgirl already fills largely the same role, and Harley and Ivy can contrast with the rest of the cast and doesn't need Catwoman as the straight man.
> 
> If I were to include Catwoman in Superher Girls I'd probably look into making her a mentor or teacher. I think she needs a fair bit of life experience to work as a character.



Early on in the cartoons when Catwoman was still a very minor character there was a class where Catwoman was demonstrating her whip skills to the other students.
No hint of any villainous tendencies back then. Just another person at the school.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I'm re-reading the 90's series. I'm up to the point of the Legacy virus crossover. I miss that series, having Chuck Dixon write Catwoman as an international thief going on grandeur adventures to pay the rent - and just to stay alive. I miss her being a wise-ass who toys with people using puns, sarcasm, and snarky insults (not always to her advantage, but its fun to read). I miss Catwoman pulling off near-impossible acrobatic stunts and winning difficult battles with multiple deadly opponents at the same time. I miss the Cat's Paw grappling device on her arm; it gave her a lot more mobility. 
I like the new Catwoman by Joelle Jones, but I wish she was a bit more like Dixon's more competent, more intelligent, and more exciting Catwoman.

----------


## Frontier

> Early on in the cartoons when Catwoman was still a very minor character there was a class where Catwoman was demonstrating her whip skills to the other students.
> *No hint of any villainous tendencies back then. Just another person at the school*.


Yeah, it wasn't until the "Fresh Ares" three-parter that they gave Selina any character-focus and depicted her more as a thief with a manipulative side who'll do the right thing when it counts (but then go on ahead to steal something right afterwards), although in the recent episode she's more of an outright villain.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I'm re-reading the 90's series. I'm up to the point of the Legacy virus crossover. I miss that series, having Chuck Dixon write Catwoman as an international thief going on grandeur adventures to pay the rent - and just to stay alive. I miss her being a wise-ass who toys with people using puns, sarcasm, and snarky insults (not always to her advantage, but its fun to read). I miss Catwoman pulling off near-impossible acrobatic stunts and winning difficult battles with multiple deadly opponents at the same time. I miss the Cat's Paw grappling device on her arm; it gave her a lot more mobility. 
> I like the new Catwoman by Joelle Jones, but I wish she was a bit more like Dixon's more competent, more intelligent, and more exciting Catwoman.


I liked the book more when Jo Duffy was writing it.  Not really a big fan of Chuck Dixon.  Was happy that Doug Moench took over for a while.  I've always liked how Doug Moench wrote Catwoman. Then the books kept losing writers
and it varied wildly in quality and focus. I kept buying the book because I am a completest and wanted to support the character. But sort of lost interest after a while. At least they were able to keep Jim Balent for most of the run.
But then even he left. Not sure if Catwoman didn't seem to be a priority for DC or it would have seemed they would have been better at keeping talent.

----------


## godisawesome

> I'm re-reading the 90's series. I'm up to the point of the Legacy virus crossover. I miss that series, having Chuck Dixon write Catwoman as an international thief going on grandeur adventures to pay the rent - and just to stay alive. I miss her being a wise-ass who toys with people using puns, sarcasm, and snarky insults (not always to her advantage, but its fun to read). I miss Catwoman pulling off near-impossible acrobatic stunts and winning difficult battles with multiple deadly opponents at the same time. I miss the Cat's Paw grappling device on her arm; it gave her a lot more mobility. 
> I like the new Catwoman by Joelle Jones, but I wish she was a bit more like Dixon's more competent, more intelligent, and more exciting Catwoman.


There's two things I absolutely love about Dixon/others and Balent's version of Catwoman: Balent's tendency to give Selina exagerrated but fun expressions, especially her mischievous smiles and smirks, and Dixon/others having her be a one-woman heist machine scaled up to superhero size, especially with that Cat's Paw and the comical ease she had with heists that would normally dominate a movie.

----------


## tbgo

*Catwoman by Jim Balent Book Two*
Paperback – March 12, 2019



*By day she is a beautiful socialite, by night she becomes the world's greatest thief. Catwoman by Jim Balent Book Two will take Selina Kyle on an adventure that will change her views of herself and the world. The only question is: How many of her nine lives will she have to use?*

Written by fan favorite Batman writer Chuck Dixon with stunning art by Jim Balent, Catwoman by Jim Balent Book Two continues the epic story of the now-legendary Catwoman series as she walks a tightrope between a life of crime and a road to redemption!

When Catwoman is captured by a secret government organization and blackmailed into committing an impossible robbery, she is caught in a no-win situation: the infamous feline burglar must steal an ancient relic of a small European country or suffer the detonation of a cyanide capsule that has been implanted in her arm! Realizing success will lead to her termination by her captors, Catwoman will have to use her ingenuity to turn the tables against the government agency and save her own life.

Collects Catwoman #14-24, #0, Catwoman Annual #2 and Showcase '95 #4.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/14...KKWKZFVKP9WFVS

----------


## millernumber1

> There's two things I absolutely love about Dixon/others and Balent's version of Catwoman: Balent's tendency to give Selina exagerrated but fun expressions, especially her mischievous smiles and smirks, and Dixon/others having her be a one-woman heist machine scaled up to superhero size, especially with that Cat's Paw and the comical ease she had with heists that would normally dominate a movie.


Speaking of Dixon's Catwoman, Dixon just revealed a pitch he had back in the 90s: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/chuck-dixon-2/

He himself had a whole plan about Bruce and Selina getting married...  :Smile:

----------


## Celgress

For those interested Selina will feature quite heavily in my AU fanfiction crossover story (Justice League/Avengers alongside a few other properties) "Legion of Superheroes" from chapter three onward. It is the first time I've written Catwoman or the Bat Family as more than cameos in my universe so I hope I do an adequate job with general characterization. If so inclined, check it out -

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1301484...of-Superheroes

enjoy

----------


## Huntsman1117

Damn! I finished re-reading "Batman Legacy" and then the following issue of CATWOMAN, Chuck Dixon's final issue as it's writer...and boy did Dixon finish his run by making Selina a bit of an asshole! I didn't notice it the first time. But damn, she unleashed an angry captive leopard and a leopard-woman mutant, allowed the felines to fight themselves and kill the stupid men (who were conducting a genetic experiment involving using leopard DNA to combat an incurable disease) without any care or attempting to help the situation, and also allowed the large cats to roam free in Gotham, not caring how many people would be killed by them. I mean, I know Selina is not a nice person, not even a remotely good person, but she doesn't usually do things that get a lot of people killed without trying to help out a little - even if she really doesn't want to, she usually helps prevent people from getting killed. Chuck Dixon knows that, he always gave her a small hint of heroism but again, he wrapped up his run on her book by making her a really selfish asshole. Maybe he wanted to reiterate that point that she is a criminal and a villain at the core and that she should never be viewed as a role model (which is a point he made in WIZARD magazine around that time).

----------


## Huntsman1117

CATWOMAN has a new artist for this month's issue, Fernando Blanco. Here's a sample of his work. The solicitations describe it as being a reflective issue, with Selina in jail contemplating things about her past with Bruce, revealing some never before seen secrets. 

20181005_084332.jpg

----------


## Huntsman1117

GORGEOUS variant cover for CATWOMAN #5 by Artgerm! Screenshot_20181005-095526_Instagram.jpg

----------


## nonsense man

I like Dixons take the best because she is a villian not a good guy she might be more ethical compared to the other villians but she still is a bad guy selfish and looks out for number one most of the time.  Her and then leaving bruce is how actually see the way that marriage would go in continuity whether because they threaten bruce or not does not matter I see it happen if she reforms but in conintuity that idea is impossible

----------


## chongjasmine

I like catwoman.
I am catwoman.
Meow.

----------


## Huntsman1117

> Speaking of Dixon's Catwoman, Dixon just revealed a pitch he had back in the 90s: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/chuck-dixon-2/
> 
> He himself had a whole plan about Bruce and Selina getting married...


Interesting. In this artice Dixon says he probably would have Bat & Cat marry, try to make it work for a year, then have Cat leave Bat for noble reasons because he says she is a noble character.

----------


## DragonPiece

I've been replaying arkham knight and her voice actress in that game is literally perfect. I think may be my favorite voice actress to play catwoman, what about you guys, do you have a favorite?

----------


## godisawesome

Grey Griffin probably has the most playful voice for the character, though Adrienne Barbeau's acting in BTAS was a very fun but mellow performance that suited the film noir vibe of the show very well. Griffin, I guess, sounds more like a Balent era Catwoman, while Barbeau's sounds more like a later version of the character.

----------


## Frontier

For me my top Catwoman VA's would probably be Grey Griffin, Adrienne Barbeau, Jennifer Carpenter, and Laura Bailey.

----------


## FBarnhill

I despise Balent’s art. My favorite Catwoman design is Adam Hughes but that’s because I have a thing for Audrey Hepburn.

Going to VAs, I say Barbeau’s my favorite. Her noirish voice is perfect for the character and she handles the emotional parts well. Delisle (I’m still calling her that) tries way too hard to sound sexy. Bailey, I do like.

----------


## Huntsman1117

I gotta be honest, Grey Griffin's voice acting for Catwoman was a little too soft for me, at first. I liked Adrienne Barbeau but her character on BTAS was also too soft and weak. That's probably because the Catwoman I first fell in love with is Michelle Pfeiffer. Her voice was more of a deep, throaty growl than a soft purr, and she was downright vicious.  Griffin's voice, has grown on me gradually because I like Catwoman in the Arkham games and in Injustice 2.

----------


## Frontier

> I gotta be honest, *Grey Griffin's voice acting for Catwoman was a little too soft for me*, at first. I liked Adrienne Barbeau but her character on BTAS was also too soft and weak. That's probably because the Catwoman I first fell in love with is Michelle Pfeiffer. Her voice was more of a deep, throaty growl than a soft purr, and she was downright vicious.  Griffin's voice, has grown on me gradually because I like Catwoman in the Arkham games and in Injustice 2.


I think that added to her performance since it helped when her Catwoman was more sultry  :Smile: .

----------


## Starrius

> I gotta be honest, Grey Griffin's voice acting for Catwoman was a little too soft for me, at first. I liked Adrienne Barbeau but her character on BTAS was also too soft and weak. That's probably because the Catwoman I first fell in love with is Michelle Pfeiffer. Her voice was more of a deep, throaty growl than a soft purr, and she was downright vicious.  Griffin's voice, has grown on me gradually because I like Catwoman in the Arkham games and in Injustice 2.


Michelle Pfeiffer was a sexy Catwoman with great chemistry with Michael Keaton's Batman

but 

I thought she was too crazy for my taste 
some scenes made me cringe  like  how she got revived by cats  and she was looking like she was on drugs when she drank the milk from the carton and created her costume 
as well as her giving herself a "bath" by licking her costume


That Catwoman looked like she belonged locked up in Arkham Asylum.

I liked Anne Hathaway as Selina because she played her as a sane thief

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Michelle Pfeiffer was a sexy Catwoman with great chemistry with Michael Keaton's Batman
> 
> but 
> 
> I thought she was too crazy for my taste 
> some scenes made me cringe  like  how she got revived by cats  and she was looking like she was on drugs when she drank the milk from the cartoon and created her costume 
> as well as her giving herself a "bath" by licking her costume
> 
> 
> ...


Anne Hathaway probably played the most comic book accurate movie Catwoman ever. Both in looks and motivation.

----------


## Huntsman1117

Agreed. Pfieffer's Catwoman was obviously suffering head trauma from being pushed out of a window. I don't think the cats revived her magically, rather their chewing on her fingers brought her back to consciousness - albeit with a concussion. That can explain why she wasn't the sharpest Selina Kyle we've ever seen. Hathaway's Catwoman was not only the closest to the comics in terms of character & lifestyle, but she was also the most skilled and competent.

----------


## Spencermalley935

> Anne Hathaway probably played the most comic book accurate movie Catwoman ever. Both in looks and motivation.


She really did. She was the leading lady the film series needed from the beginning.

----------


## tbgo

> Anne Hathaway probably played the most comic book accurate movie Catwoman ever. Both in looks and motivation.


Uh, where were the claws and whip? Her characterization was paper thin. Michelle Pfeiffer was the only one to capture the true essence of the character regardless of storyline. Batman-Online already went through the entire Returns film and script went from scene-to-scene to show that Pfeiffer's Catwoman was indeed the comic book. It was heavily inspired by Miller's take and Her Sister's Keeper. Hathaway proved that Nolan can't write nor direct women.

----------


## tbgo

> For me my top Catwoman VA's would probably be Grey Griffin, Adrienne Barbeau, Jennifer Carpenter, and Laura Bailey.


Adrienne Barbeau is THE voice of Catwoman, hands down.

----------


## Spencermalley935

> Uh, where were the claws and whip? Her characterization was paper thin. Michelle Pfeiffer was the only one to capture the true essence of the character regardless of storyline. Batman-Online already went through the entire Returns film and script went from scene-to-scene to show that Pfeiffer's Catwoman was indeed the comic book. It was heavily inspired by Miller's take and Her Sister's Keeper. Hathaway proved that Nolan can't write nor direct women.


You can't be serious with this. Pfeiffer's Catwoman was a really good alternate version of the character but she was as far removed from the source material as could possibly be (I don't care about passing resemblances to obscure parts of the source material especially Her Sister's Keeper which is terrible) 

So what if she didn't have "claws and a whip"? The Joker didn't have Laughing Gas or Joy Buzzers. Characterization is where it counts and Hathaway was honestly spot-on in every conceivable way.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> You can't be serious with this. Pfeiffer's Catwoman was a really good alternate version of the character but she was as far removed from the source material as could possibly be (I don't care about passing resemblances to obscure parts of the source material especially Her Sister's Keeper which is terrible) 
> 
> So what if she didn't have "claws and a whip"? The Joker didn't have Laughing Gas or Joy Buzzers. Characterization is where it counts and Hathaway was honestly spot-on in every conceivable way.


Michelle Catwoman was more flamboyant and fit in with the weird freaky aesthetic that Burton was going for. AnneCat was subtle and nuanced and fit in Nolan’s more realistic take. I loved her scenes as Selina (especially the intro and the bar scene) much more than her Catwoman ones. Her main problem was not enough screen time.

Between the two, I’d go for AnneCat.

----------


## signalman112

> Adrienne Barbeau is THE voice of Catwoman, hands down.


Agree, Barbeau did an A+ job voicing Selina.

2nd for me in voicing CATWOMAN is Nika Futterman from B:TB&TB.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

I never bought Hathaway as Selina, she's a great actress and all but I've never really found her sexy, and yes I know that Selina is much more than that I just never thought that movie version captured that side of Selina...

----------


## ZeroBG82

> I never bought Hathaway as Selina, she's a great actress and all but I've never really found her sexy, and yes I know that Selina is much more than that I just never thought that movie version captured that side of Selina...


Interesting perspective.  I've always found Hathaway to be quite sexy (Havoc.  An interesting film, but good lord does she just ooze sex for most of it.), and her Selina quite effective.  The film didn't really play up the seductive element anywhere near as much as the Pfeifer version back in Batman Returns.  My biggest quibble with Hathaway's portrayal has nothing to do with her, just that the film uses her so sparingly.  I've always felt that, while the film is probably overlong as is, it would have benefited from more time spent showing us how Selina confronts Bane's regime and the changes it brings to Gotham.  A sort of cat's eye view of the new order.  There is a little of that in the film, enough to satisfy her character motivations, but I thought it was  missed opportunity to give her some depth and focus.

----------


## Frontier

My biggest issue with Hathaway's Catwoman is that she never uses a whip  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(I guess another pedantic issue is they never once call her Catwoman in the movie).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> My biggest issue with Hathaway's Catwoman is that she never uses a whip .
> 
> (I guess another pedantic issue is they never once call her Catwoman in the movie).


I am trying to remember if Julie Newmar/Eartha Kitt/Lee Meriwether ever used a whip either.  So not having a whip isn't an instant disqualification.
Julie Newmar did use the claws though.  I remember a scene where she cut a hole in a glass case using her claw.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

I know that Selina is much more than just her sex appeal but I've always felt that it was an intrinsic part of her, equal parts smart and equal parts sexy, the old you can't have one without the other, and in the movie I just bought Hathaway as a thief, but not really as Catwoman and thought that anything between her and Bruce in the movie was...lacking, she didn't feel to be his equal...that unless you knew the history in the comics and such you'd not think of them on par with the other...it was like having Catwoman without actually having Catwoman…

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## Spencermalley935

> I know that Selina is much more than just her sex appeal but I've always felt that it was an intrinsic part of her, equal parts smart and equal parts sexy, the old you can't have one without the other, and in the movie I just bought Hathaway as a thief, but not really as Catwoman and thought that anything between her and Bruce in the movie was...lacking, she didn't feel to be his equal...that unless you knew the history in the comics and such you'd not think of them on par with the other...it was like having Catwoman without actually having Catwoman…


I thought Hathaway was gorgeous as Catwoman.

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## Jackalope89

Nothing against Hathaway, but whenever I see her, I just can't get this out of my head;

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## Starrius

> Nothing against Hathaway, but whenever I see her, I just can't get this out of my head;



I don't understand why people hold some movies that were released in 2001 and 2004 against her
the last movie was released 7 years before her casting as Selina


no actor/actress wants to be judged by work that they have done many years ago 
they definitely don't want to be typecasted


she did other movies before and after Princess Diaries movies, and they were different from role in Princess Diaries movies


I never even thought of  the movies when I found out she was cast as Selina



 a lot of people were holding Mr. Mom movie against Michael Keaton when he was cast as Batman

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## Miles To Go

So the January solicitations reveal Penguin drops by, and this is how Selina learns about everything going on in Gotham



http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...0/15/dcjan.htm

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## tbgo

> I am trying to remember if Julie Newmar/Eartha Kitt/Lee Meriwether ever used a whip either.  So not having a whip isn't an instant disqualification.
> Julie Newmar did use the claws though.  I remember a scene where she cut a hole in a glass case using her claw.


Yes, they used a whip.

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## tbgo

> So the January solicitations reveal Penguin drops by, and this is how Selina learns about everything going on in Gotham
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...0/15/dcjan.htm


Absolutely stunning!!!

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## Jackalope89

> I don't understand why people hold some movies that were released in 2001 and 2004 against her
> the last movie was released 7 years before her casting as Selina
> 
> 
> no actor/actress wants to be judged by work that they have done many years ago 
> they definitely don't want to be typecasted
> 
> 
> she did other movies before and after Princess Diaries movies, and they were different from role in Princess Diaries movies
> ...


It was how I was introduced to Anne Hathaway. I know, typecasting and all, but I can't help it and chuckle whenever she popped up in the film.

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## Restingvoice

> I don't understand why people hold some movies that were released in 2001 and 2004 against her


Oh,  that's simple. Because that's the only, last, or most memorable movie they saw with that actor. So that's the only memory or at least the strongest memory they have of them. Logically, they have a life, different movies and they develop their skills beyond those movies, but for people who only know them from certain movies, it's like time stopped for them. Then the news feel like it came out of nowhere.

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## Shadowcat

Huge Selina fan, but I’ve been out of current DC for quite awhile. How’s Joelle’s run thus far? She looks gorgeous, but I don’t want to get burned again.

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## kjn

> Huge Selina fan, but I’ve been out of current DC for quite awhile. How’s Joelle’s run thus far? She looks gorgeous, but I don’t want to get burned again.


I'd say it's quite good. Effective visual storytelling, a strong grasp of Selina's character, and a creepy villain.

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## Shadowcat

> I'd say it's quite good. Effective visual storytelling, a strong grasp of Selina's character, and a creepy villain.


Thank you! I’m so excited! I started loving Winick’s run, but it just got progressively worse with each issue. Nocenti’s run was all over the place, and I was just bored with Valentine & Tieri’s runs. Anyway, I’m glad this new series is great thus far. I’ll look for the new series on my next trip to the lcs.

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## Huntsman1117

> So the January solicitations reveal Penguin drops by, and this is how Selina learns about everything going on in Gotham
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...0/15/dcjan.htm


I can't wait! I'm still loving the art and the new costume! It's going to be great having Penguin guest star!

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## Huntsman1117

I replicated one of Jim Balent's images from the 90's, specifically from "Catwoman Year Two", part two, but put her in her new costume. Balent's artwork introduced me to Catwoman comics and defined her face and overall look for me. However I love the new costume and wish I could see Balent's rendition of it; the same for Jim Lee as well.


20181011_024513.jpg

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## Huntsman1117

Sorry for it being sideways, I'm not sure how to fix that on this forum.

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## MajorHoy

> Sorry for it being sideways, I'm not sure how to fix that on this forum.

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## Miles To Go

Tom King teasing the Bat/Cat reunion on Twitter

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...2F%3Fpage%3D21

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## FBarnhill

Please no.

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## kjn

Preview of Catwoman #6 and an interview with Joëlle Jones




> In the beginning, I really wanted to have Selina by herself with new characters. I'm really excited about the second story because now I want to bring in some Gothamites, and other DC characters and let me play with these toys in my new city, as well out of the city. I think I can say it now but I'm bringing in the Penguin and oh my gosh, he really fun to write and I can't wait to draw him.

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## Miles To Go

> Please no.


Please yes. A long-term relationship or a successful stab at the marriage is the only way I'll ever be interested in the character again

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## Frontier

> Tom King teasing the Bat/Cat reunion on Twitter
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...2F%3Fpage%3D21


Is this not just a Hush flashback? Selina looks like she's in an older costume.

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## Inversed

> Is this not just a Hush flashback? Selina looks like she's in an older costume.


It's most likely from #63 since Mikel Janin's doing that one, so yeah it probably is a flashback. I'll still take it, since it'll keep them relevant while this part of the story is going on. I'm still expecting them to be reunited in #75, and he's already said a crossover between the two books is happening.

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## Miles To Go

Yeah, but probably the extra heartbreak King throws in once he's "mended" Bruce is that Selina is enjoying life in her new city now so she won't come back to Gotham permanently over that stupid "your rage helps you save lives without me" philosophy she's adopted.

Selina would never have caved in to what Bane manipulated Holly to say under any competent writer, she knows Bruce too well to think the way she currently is, that was completely out of character and why I will never support Selina's ongoing. Hopefully someone can fix this mess and get them married eventually. Until then, ZERO interest in what she's currently doing.

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## nonsense man

Opposite for me I like bruce and selina as frenemies and ex's who have moved on because they just can not agree on things that leads to lack of trust at times or disrespecting each others values at worst.

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## Huntsman1117

I certainly hope that image is a flashback and that we get to see Mikel Janin draw Catwoman in her new costume. I can't wait for the reunion. And although Bat & Cat have a great dynamic as frenemies, it would be more interesting to have them in a serious relationship and to see that relationship go through its ups and downs, and continuously evolve in both subtle and dramatic ways.

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