# Comics  > Batman >  Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

## byrd156

Someone probably beat me to it but I didn't see a new one so I'm making it. Let's hope 2019 isn't as bad as 2019 for Dick and pretty much everyone else in the DCU.

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## Frontier

Happy New Year to Dick Grayson and all his fans  :Cool: .

May he have a better 2019...

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## Ascended

Gotta get some great art in here, right?

DC Nightwing 2.jpg

And this is my scribble here. Not sure if it'll show the detail properly.

Nightwing McArthur.jpg

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## byrd156

I was beginning to wonder if everyone disappeared with the last thread.  :Wink:

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## Ascended

Eh, I'm sure most of us are recovering from the new year's.  :Smile:  

I don't drink or party anymore (back in my 20's? Different story!), and even me and my wife slept in until 1 this afternoon. 

Once the hangovers and holiday vacations end, I'm sure the forums will be full of people complaining about how poorly DC has treated Nightwing again.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## oasis1313

Who ELSE cares how we feel?  Happy New Year, Ascended and all my other buds here!

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## dropkickjake

> Eh, I'm sure most of us are recovering from the new year's.  
> 
> I don't drink or party anymore (back in my 20's? Different story!), and even me and my wife slept in until 1 this afternoon. 
> 
> Once the hangovers and holiday vacations end, I'm sure the forums will be full of people complaining about how poorly DC has treated Nightwing again.


headache here, checking in.

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## Ascended

> Who ELSE cares how we feel?  Happy New Year, Ascended and all my other buds here!


Happy new year to you as well my friend! And to all the rest of you fine people! I find that over the last year I've been posting in the Nightwing threads more than anywhere else. It's funny, the book is in terrible shape these days but I find the conversations here to be some of the best on CBR lately.  :Big Grin:  

So, I've already posted in this thread more than I needed to but here's a cute story that just happened. My daughter is 5, and her name is Robyn Haley. Tonight, instead of me reading her a bedtime story she wanted me to tell her one. Now, she loves DC Super Hero Girls and Teen Titans GO, so I asked her if she wanted to hear the origin story of the first Robin. 

How I never realized that her middle name is the same as Haley's circus is beyond me (she wasn't named after anything from Batman comics I swear), but my kid picked up on that immediately. And now, twenty minutes later, she's still bouncing off the walls yelling and screaming about how she's going to be a superhero.

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## dropkickjake

nightwing old colors.jpg

I'll be the the first to admit that I'm pretty awful at visual art, including recoloring stuff on the computer (literally sing ms paint over here), but I think Nightwings old color scheme works smashingly with the most recent Nightwing suit.

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## byrd156

> Eh, I'm sure most of us are recovering from the new year's.  
> 
> I don't drink or party anymore (back in my 20's? Different story!), and even me and my wife slept in until 1 this afternoon. 
> 
> Once the hangovers and holiday vacations end, I'm sure the forums will be full of people complaining about how poorly DC has treated Nightwing again.


Glad I'm still 20 then, can drink and be up early without feeling like death. Always need to be ready to complain about DC's decisions or lack thereof.

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## byrd156

> nightwing old colors.jpg
> 
> I'll be the the first to admit that I'm pretty awful at visual art, including recoloring stuff on the computer (literally sing ms paint over here), but I think Nightwings old color scheme works smashingly with the most recent Nightwing suit.


I always like looking at Discowing inspired designs. I actually really liked the one that was used in the RHatO flashbacks for Dick.

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## byrd156

> Happy new year to you as well my friend! And to all the rest of you fine people! I find that over the last year I've been posting in the Nightwing threads more than anywhere else. It's funny, the book is in terrible shape these days but I find the conversations here to be some of the best on CBR lately. 
> 
> So, I've already posted in this thread more than I needed to but here's a cute story that just happened. My daughter is 5, and her name is Robyn Haley. Tonight, instead of me reading her a bedtime story she wanted me to tell her one. Now, she loves DC Super Hero Girls and Teen Titans GO, so I asked her if she wanted to hear the origin story of the first Robin. 
> 
> How I never realized that her middle name is the same as Haley's circus is beyond me (she wasn't named after anything from Batman comics I swear), but my kid picked up on that immediately. And now, twenty minutes later, she's still bouncing off the walls yelling and screaming about how she's going to be a superhero.


That's awesome, when I was learning how to read I had a bunch of comics and books for learning that were made by DC. I was 3 or so I think.

I have a topic for the rest of the thread. I was looking on google earlier today when I got some pictures of Nightwing for the thread and I came across this concept art. I remember talking about a few years back possibly before or right after the CBR reboot. In 2009 there was a proposed Nightwing animated series that would focus on Dick teaching Raven or something like that. It was going to be anime-like kinda like Avatar the Last Airbender but still more like western animation. 

Would you guys think anything like this could happen on the DC streaming service or the like? We already have Titans and Young Justice with Dick in it plus the Chris McKay directed movie whenever that gets off the ground, (I heard that the script is pretty much ready but they won't move until The Batman movie is ready) he seems to be one of the few characters DC allows to appear in multiple forms of media and shows. Would a Nightwing animated show be too much? (Of course not)

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I have a topic for the rest of the thread. I was looking on google earlier today when I got some pictures of Nightwing for the thread and I came across this concept art. I remember talking about a few years back possibly before or right after the CBR reboot. In 2009 there was a proposed Nightwing animated series that would focus on Dick teaching Raven or something like that. It was going to be anime-like kinda like Avatar the Last Airbender but still more like western animation. 
> 
> Would you guys think anything like this could happen on the DC streaming service or the like? We already have Titans and Young Justice with Dick in it plus the Chris McKay directed movie whenever that gets off the ground, (*I heard that the script is pretty much ready but they won't move until The Batman movie is ready*) he seems to be one of the few characters DC allows to appear in multiple forms of media and shows. Would a Nightwing animated show be too much? (Of course not)


Yeah the concept art was for a proposed Nightwing series that was in contention along with other projects including Young Justice. We know which one was greenlit, lol. And I've definitely come back to this over the years and will continue to want a Nightwing animated series, especially as I personally prefer animation to live-action content when it comes to superhero fiction. There's just so much more that you can express in animation, the only reason I also want a live-action Nightwing is more the mainstream draw that would get. Or in other words, I 100% want an Into the Spider-Verse for Dick more than I want a Homecoming. Anyways, a new Nightwing animated series is definitely possible on the DCU, but I'm not sure it'll happen yet. They have YJ and HQ, and I'm sure they'd rather make a new Flash series or one based on one of the Trinity. I'll keep hoping lol.

As for the bolded, I'm not sure that's true. From what I understand, McKay created a sizzle reel to pitch for the Nightwing movie, that's what he was in the process of making when he created that Twitter poll a ways back. We've heard reports that Nightwing is not a priority for WB, so I guess it didn't get the greenlight. While WB could be gauging the success of The Batman for greenlighting Nightwing in the future, what we do know is that the actual script hasn't been finalized yet. 




> nightwing old colors.jpg
> 
> I'll be the the first to admit that I'm pretty awful at visual art, including recoloring stuff on the computer (literally sing ms paint over here), but I think Nightwings old color scheme works smashingly with the most recent Nightwing suit.


I love this! I've had similar ideas in my head for a while now, so it's cool seeing something like that represented visually. 
-------
Anyways, Happy New Year all. We'll be getting some YJ content very early on this year so hopefully we'll have some positive things to discuss! ICYMI, the first of two Outsiders prequel comics are coming out on the DCU service tomorrow, with the next one out on Thursday. Then we get the first three episodes of Outsiders on the Friday, Jan. 4th. We'll get three episode for two more weeks, and then four on Jan. 25th to end the first half of the season. It'll come back in June from what I understand.

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## Godlike13

> I always like looking at Discowing inspired designs. I actually really liked the one that was used in the RHatO flashbacks for Dick.


I don't know, trying to make the Discowing suit look more modern kind of loses what makes it so memorable. It stands out because its so 70's, and thats what make it memorable. Same thing with his original Robin costume. They're such testaments to their era. So when they try to modernize them they lose that.

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## byrd156

> Yeah the concept art was for a proposed Nightwing series that was in contention along with other projects including Young Justice. We know which one was greenlit, lol. And I've definitely come back to this over the years and will continue to want a Nightwing animated series, especially as I personally prefer animation to live-action content when it comes to superhero fiction. There's just so much more that you can express in animation, the only reason I also want a live-action Nightwing is more the mainstream draw that would get. Or in other words, I 100% want an Into the Spider-Verse for Dick more than I want a Homecoming. Anyways, a new Nightwing animated series is definitely possible on the DCU, but I'm not sure it'll happen yet. They have YJ and HQ, and I'm sure they'd rather make a new Flash series or one based on one of the Trinity. I'll keep hoping lol.
> 
> As for the bolded, I'm not sure that's true. From what I understand, McKay created a sizzle reel to pitch for the Nightwing movie, that's what he was in the process of making when he created that Twitter poll a ways back. We've heard reports that Nightwing is not a priority for WB, so I guess it didn't get the greenlight. While WB could be gauging the success of The Batman for greenlighting Nightwing in the future, what we do know is that the actual script hasn't been finalized yet.


I've only heard rumors, I don't know anything. The only constant that I kept hearing in relation to the Nightwing movie is that nothing will be moving forward until Reeves' Batman movie if anything does end up happening. We know nothing and we just have to wait until we do.

I've been saying for a while now that DC would be smart to move into big budget animated movies. I really want to see Alex Ross' art style animated one day. Imagine them doing a trilogy that started with Justice and ended with Kingdom Come. Come on DC this is awesome. Sony developed new animation tech just for Into the Spiderverse, DC could and should do it too. Though if they did more solo focused movies I think someone like Nightwing or the Flash would be perfect for it.

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## byrd156

> I don't know, trying to make the Discowing suit look more modern kind of loses what makes it so memorable. It stands out because its so 70's, and thats what make it memorable. Same thing with his original Robin costume. They're such testaments to their era. So when they try to modernize them they lose that.


I agree with you 100%. I'm not advocating for them to replace what came before but to be more suits in the cave so to speak. I always advocate for the classic suits, but I see nothing wrong with adding more variety to certain styles of suits. I want to see Dick wear the Discowing or Pixie boots in flashbacks as THEE suit of the time. I would also like to see variety as well, maybe a reinforced suit or a different design for a specific story or the like.

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## Restingvoice

I actually forgot which Dick Grayson I saw first. The Golden Age comic or the Batman 66 tv series. I was still in kindergarten at the time. I drew Superman, Batman, and Robin at the time which seems to suggest that the comic came first. 

I do remember this is the very first page I read. 

DjuvccKXgAAEuc8.jpg

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## oasis1313

> I always like looking at Discowing inspired designs. I actually really liked the one that was used in the RHatO flashbacks for Dick.


These middle-aged doofusses think these costumes will fit them?  These cops are having delusions.

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## Godlike13

Dick really needs to keep better track of his clothes. Especially with Lobdell around, LoL. Between Jason and now these “Nightwings”, he seems to like putting characters in Dick’s clothes.

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## Godlike13

Hey did we ever talk about how Dick and Harley got married in OLH?

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## byrd156

> Hey did we ever talk about how Dick and Harley got married in OLH?


When was this?

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## yohyoi

I heard from a guy reading Batman Beyond that Ric was mentioned and that Dick doesn't want another Robin to exist. How do you feel about Dick seeing Robin as a curse? Damian is an exception as always. He was already living in Hell. Do you think Tim and Jason were wrong to become Robin? Jason was crowbared. Tim was traumatized. There is really a good case against Robin (being a bad thing) as seen in Titans tv. Anyway, Ric is temporary and Dick gets a wife and daughter, so we all good.

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## Godlike13

> When was this?


Sometime before Harley became an old lady  :Stick Out Tongue: . Don’t think they have given specifics, but he was apparently her husband.

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## yohyoi

Dick respects the marriage of others no matter what. What a guy!

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## yohyoi

Hack or Diley. Hack or Delay!? It's easy to remember Mr. Richard Grayson and Mrs. Harleen Grayson.



https://screenrant.com/nightwing-har...married-comic/

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## yohyoi

DC Women do love our Dick. Uh, phrasing  :Frown:

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## Restingvoice

I lost count on how many alternate futures we have. I'm pretty sure Old Lady Harley isn't canon but did anyone confirm which one is the destined future? In New 52 it was Batman Beyond, but what about Rebirth? Is it Troia? Evil-Timtopia? The previous Justice League Descendants? King's Batmarriage? The current time-displaced future League? 

Which one has Dick as Bludhaven mayor and has a daughter, again? Batman Beyond?

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## Rac7d*

are we gonna refresh the thread every year now? Also I wonder if Appreciation is eve the best word to use the last 7 months has been mostly complaing and disgust

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## yohyoi

> are we gonna refresh the thread every year now? Also I wonder if Appreciation is eve the best word to use the last 7 months has been mostly complaing and disgust


The thread is simply a general discussion about the awesome and inspiring Dick Grayson. Complaining and disgust have their place, and keeps the thread from becoming an echo chamber. Hate is great short term fuel for a fandom as long as there is Hope.

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## oasis1313

> are we gonna refresh the thread every year now? Also I wonder if Appreciation is eve the best word to use the last 7 months has been mostly complaing and disgust


We appreciate Dick Grayson--just not his CURRENT treatment at DC's hands.

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## Restingvoice

Burt Ward Robin made me think Robin is just a dumb sidekick for the longest time, which even after BTAS and Schumacher, whose depictions are not as silly as 66, did little to change that opinion, but this version was also the first time I noticed the legs... and hair... and face

8d7847013e4b68ddb3e9962cea0ef33c.jpg

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## yohyoi

Which is why I love Brenton Thwaites' hot, serious and dangerous Dick Grayson. Goes perfect with Ben Affleck's Batman, and Brenton is a very hot Robin.

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## yohyoi

Perfect Dick Grayson body. No wonder he is such a ladies man.

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## Restingvoice

Backing up a bit, Robin Dies At Dawn was a very significant issue, as it was the only superhero comic I read at the time that didn't just have the heroes punching people and being a funny book, but dealing with death, loss, insecurity, and facing your fear throughout the story. 

batman-1960s.jpg

So I'm very pleasantly surprised that modern creators revisit it. Morrison made the doctor that supervise Batman's training to be an immortal villain of the Wayne clan, the story is collected in The Black Casebook, and King paid homage to it in Grayson's Everybody Die At Dawn.

Oh, this is also the first time I know about Ace the Bat-Hound.

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## byrd156

> Burt Ward Robin made me think Robin is just a dumb sidekick for the longest time, which even after BTAS and Schumacher, whose depictions are not as silly as 66, did little to change that opinion, but this version was also the first time I noticed the legs... and hair... and face
> 
> 8d7847013e4b68ddb3e9962cea0ef33c.jpg


Burt Ward is still probably my favorite live action version of Dick. Perfect casting.

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## byrd156

> I heard from a guy reading Batman Beyond that Ric was mentioned and that Dick doesn't want another Robin to exist. How do you feel about Dick seeing Robin as a curse? Damian is an exception as always. He was already living in Hell. Do you think Tim and Jason were wrong to become Robin? Jason was crowbared. Tim was traumatized. There is really a good case against Robin (being a bad thing) as seen in Titans tv. Anyway, Ric is temporary and Dick gets a wife and daughter, so we all good.


I hate this idea. It feels contrived and is generally done just to have more darkness for the sake of it. I can see it as a phase after Jason dies but A Lonely Place of Dying helps not only Bruce but Dick as well. Tim is an important part of Dick's journey of accepting that Robin will live on after him.

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## byrd156

> Hack or Diley. Hack or Delay!? It's easy to remember Mr. Richard Grayson and Mrs. Harleen Grayson.
> 
> 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-har...married-comic/


Gross, I don't know what messed up Dick in this universe to the point he would get with Harley. Scary thought.

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## byrd156

> are we gonna refresh the thread every year now? Also I wonder if Appreciation is eve the best word to use the last 7 months has been mostly complaing and disgust


We wouldn't complain if we didn't care. The most dangerous emotion for DC is apathy, not "hatred" or anger. If you don't care, you don't buy books.

Besides if you were here when Grayson was going on this thread was probably happier than Disney World.

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## Restingvoice

The legs came back full force once Dick hits college and comic art is getting real. The first time I noticed it in the comic was the wrestling scene in the Rupert Thorne arc. 

134339419be411288c19c5c3943ac776._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

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## Ascended

> Besides if you were here when Grayson was going on this thread was probably happier than Disney World.


Yeah it was.  :Big Grin: 

That's one of the things I've really come to appreciate about the Nightwing fandom; we're passionate as hell and will complain when we're pissed but when things are good? We really embrace it and enjoy it. You don't seem to see that with other heroes' fandoms as much; when things are good a lot of fans worry about how long it'll last or find other ways to ruin it for themselves, but when Nightwing's good? We revel in it like a bunch of hedonists.

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## oasis1313

> Hack or Diley. Hack or Delay!? It's easy to remember Mr. Richard Grayson and Mrs. Harleen Grayson.
> 
> 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-har...married-comic/


Maybe Harley just THINKS Dick has passed away, and he comes back to sweep her off her feet and make her The World's Finest Cougar.

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## Badou

I'm guessing Harley had a ton of ex-husbands in that mini series? Given the "Who wasn't" line after the reveal, lol.

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## K. Jones

> Yeah it was. 
> 
> That's one of the things I've really come to appreciate about the Nightwing fandom; we're passionate as hell and will complain when we're pissed but when things are good? We really embrace it and enjoy it. You don't seem to see that with other heroes' fandoms as much; when things are good a lot of fans worry about how long it'll last or find other ways to ruin it for themselves, but when Nightwing's good? We revel in it like a bunch of hedonists.


Oh man. Remember when Helena realized Dick needed to do some Nightwingish stuff so she chased him all over St. Hadrian's and the Skull Girls were all just staring at his butt?

THOSE WERE THE DAYS.

Remember when he and Midnighter stopped that whole nest of vampires?

AHHHHHH.

Actually we were glory-daying when he was Batman, too and we had simultaneous Morrison run, Black Mirror, Dick as Batman in the JLA, Dick teaming up with Power Girl, Dick showing up in Generation Lost, Dick in Streets of Gotham ... 

I've recently re-read the New 52 run. It's not that strong - only about half as strong as Seeley's Rebirth run and a slave to every crossover (so, akin to the latter half of the Bludhaven run). So it feels like the ups and downs with Nightwing books are pretty consistent - you get a good strong run, then some slave-to-the-crossover or fill-in periods, then another strong direction. But it's consistent all the way back - WOLFMAN ... Later Wolfman ... DIXON ... Grayson ... Jones ... Tomasi ... MORRISON ... SNYDER ... Higgins ... SEELEY-KING ... SEELEY ... Present.

Historically we'll be spoiled if we get Good Nightwing within the next run or two.

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I'm too lazy to quote rn, but about Old Lady Harley, Dick is just one of her ex-spouses. She apparently married Catwoman and Killer Croc too, lol. It's best not to take it too seriously given that the whole book is a parody of Old Man Logan.

As for the Batman Beyond book, that whole timeline is sorta messed up tbh. It's a timeline somewhat based on the DCAU (not exactly great for Dick or any Robin), the New 52 (specifically Futures End, again not great for any Robin), and current events (like Dick getting shot in the head, do I even have to say it?) in which Tim got screwed over, Damian goes bad, and who knows about Jason (I'm guessing he was the Red Hood for a while? Is he still alive?). If Dick thinks being Robin is a bad idea in that timeline, it's definitely warranted. Has nothing to do with mainline stuff or with how Dick is dealing with his insecurities in the Titans series.

And lastly, about costumes, I've always liked the idea that characters switch things up. Like maybe the hypothetical NTT-colours-on-the-Rebirth-design suit is what Dick would wear in Metropolis? It doesn't have to replace the current suit, it would be more interesting to see Dick rotate between different suits with a common symbol between them. I mean, that's exactly what's allowed Batman and specifically Bruce to be so identifiable regardless of the many differences between his many designs. I grew up with the more toyetic _The Batman_ and the more practical _Young Justice_, so I love seeing characters actually wear different costumes to deal with different situations. There should be a winter Nightwing suit for the cold, a volcano-proof suit, a "super" suit that lets him fight monsters or whatever, etc. Even if it's more casual than that, and it's just Nightwing wearing a leather jacket or an apron over his suit for whatever situation he's in, it adds a lot more character to the scenarios imo. We get this in little ways of course, i.e. Gotham Resistance, Nightwing #42, Titans #26, etc., and once upon a time his 90's suit was recontextualized as a "gliding suit" too. Dick even had an armoured up Batsuit during the Batman Reborn era. I just wish we could take all that and push it a bit more.

Edit: Also lemme just add, I personally loved Tomasi's run and Humphries' arc. Both of them should've been given a lot more time with the character, but in Tomasi's case it's not really a problem since we got Batman Reborn a little bit after his Nightwing run.

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## Ascended

> Historically we'll be spoiled if we get Good Nightwing within the next run or two.


Ha! That's true. Maybe that's why we tend to enjoy the high points more.  :Big Grin:

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## byrd156

I find it hilarious and awesome that we have 5 threads going on at the same time about different aspects of Dick.

His love life in the Soul Mate thread.

Clothing in the Tim as Nightwing thread.

Pitching ideas in the Pitch Nightwing thread.

About his current direction in the Nightwing's new direction thread.

And general stuff and things in the main thread here. It really goes to show how much we all love Dick Grayson.  :Cool:

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## Restingvoice

Yea it's a bit much ^^

Back to history time. Chris O'Donnell was cute, I like him in Scent of a Woman, but he wasn't given the best material as Robin. Batman and Robin especially made him came across as whiny.

20cebcb79ddf59957dc5665cd3134772.jpg

Also, I didn't know his costume was based on Nightwing. I saw the BTAS Nightwing, but he has a different logo.

I do like the Batman and Robin logo where the Batman and Nightwing symbols are combined though

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## byrd156

> Yea it's a bit much ^^
> 
> Back to history time. Chris O'Donnell was cute, I like him in Scent of a Woman, but he wasn't given the best material as Robin. Batman and Robin especially made him came across as whiny.
> 
> 20cebcb79ddf59957dc5665cd3134772.jpg
> 
> Also, I didn't know his costume was based on Nightwing. I saw the BTAS Nightwing, but he has a different logo.
> 
> I do like the Batman and Robin logo where the Batman and Nightwing symbols are combined though


A friend of mine is working with Chris ODonnell, I really want to get him to sign a picture of him as Robin.

Also he apparently stole his suit from set, I would totally do that if I played Robin even if the suit was less than stellar.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## dropkickjake

Batman Forever is an underrated movie. There. I said it.

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## Restingvoice

Now back to BTAS, and entering the Nightwing era. I didn't watch this one, but I read the comic book adaptation. I thought it was cool how Dick decided he's too old for Robin and decided to travel the world. It's so grown up, kid me said. I forgot the details, but he finally found what he was looking for, and return to the Batcave to introduce the new him.

Nightwinganimated.jpg

...I hate it. 

The costume is fine, but the hair... no, just no. Him as Robin's fine. Tim as Robin is super cute. That hair was what defined Nightwing in my mind for years to come.

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## Godlike13

Dick rocked a mullet in 90s. The dude dresses with the era.

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## byrd156

> Dick rocked a mullet in 90’s. The dude dresses with era.


Dick and Supes were the only ones that made it look good but I'm glad Dick dropped it.

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## babybats

> Now back to BTAS, and entering the Nightwing era. I didn't watch this one, but I read the comic book adaptation. I thought it was cool how Dick decided he's too old for Robin and decided to travel the world. It's so grown up, kid me said. I forgot the details, but he finally found what he was looking for, and return to the Batcave to introduce the new him.
> 
> Nightwinganimated.jpg
> 
> ...I hate it. 
> 
> The costume is fine, but the hair... no, just no. Him as Robin's fine. Tim as Robin is super cute. That hair was what defined Nightwing in my mind for years to come.


I was a kid in the 90s and I thought he was sooooo cool.  In my mind: mullets = cool guy.




> Dick rocked a mullet in 90’s. The dude dresses with yhe era.


Dick with an undercut, y/n?

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## Mataza

Been watching YJ again in preparation for the new season thats coming soon, and man, i had forgotten how much i loved this character and why.

I think its the best depiction of Dick Grayson in any media so far. I like how they adapted his classic wordplay with a more modern take, i like how they made him a bad at team work at the start, he was used to working with a guy that understood his every move, of course he would feel a team would slow him down. I wasnt a fan of them making him a button pusher at first, but especially during the second season his leadership and detective work get their moments.
I really loved his jester laugh, it was distracting and unnerving if you happened to be a badguy, and at the same time it fit his personality perfectly. 

Really been having fun with this.

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## byrd156

> Been watching YJ again in preparation for the new season thats coming soon, and man, i had forgotten how much i loved this character and why.
> 
> I think its the best depiction of Dick Grayson in any media so far. I like how they adapted his classic wordplay with a more modern take, i like how they made him a bad at team work at the start, he was used to working with a guy that understood his every move, of course he would feel a team would slow him down. I wasnt a fan of them making him a button pusher at first, but especially during the second season his leadership and detective work get their moments.
> I really loved his jester laugh, it was distracting and unnerving if you happened to be a badguy, and at the same time it fit his personality perfectly. 
> 
> Really been having fun with this.


It's a very well developed version of Dick, I love the Young Justice universe so much.

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## Restingvoice

Hush. The next time I saw Nightwing, he cut his hair, drawn by Jim Lee, and looking super handsome. 

MAR030182_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

I already shared in the previous thread that this is the moment I fell in love with Nightwing. On top of looking like an ideal man, he spends his time consoling Bruce, something that defines him to me from here on out, and then giving advice on his love life. 

I didn't expect him to support BatCat because the last time I saw him interact with Catwoman was in Batman 66 where he's often a hostage, or in the silver age where he's also a hostage, but this is a different continuity and story, and it's been such a long time since then.

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## oasis1313

> I find it hilarious and awesome that we have 5 threads going on at the same time about different aspects of Dick.
> 
> His love life in the Soul Mate thread.
> 
> Clothing in the Tim as Nightwing thread.
> 
> Pitching ideas in the Pitch Nightwing thread.
> 
> About his current direction in the Nightwing's new direction thread.
> ...


I think we should have an additional forum to discuss Dick's hairstyles (or Ric's lack of hair).  Dick had The Best Mullet in History.  The Best Superhero Ponytail in History.  The Best Hair, Period.

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## byrd156

> I think we should have an additional forum to discuss Dick's hairstyles (or Ric's lack of hair).  Dick had The Best Mullet in History.  The Best Superhero Ponytail in History.  The Best Hair, Period.


Seems like that's the new topic of this thread now lol.

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## oasis1313

> Seems like that's the new topic of this thread now lol.


LOL!  We only discuss the IMPORTANT things here.  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

and with yong justice premiere we are back

----------


## byrd156

Using the fee trial to watch the episodes. My full thoughts were in the Young Justice thread but I'll just repost them over here. There are very slight spoilers but they were mentioned in the promotional material so I wont use the tag. *Go watch it now instead of reading this post. TODAY'S THE DAY!!!* 

I'm 1 and a half episodes in, my fear about the animation quality dropping turned out to be true. It's a minor gripe but something that is always there but the kickass voice acting team holds up those short comings. The animation also has that lame blood effect and showing bodies that the recent animated movies always do. That felt really out of place. The kinda Wally tribute at the end of episode 1 got me in the feels. Damn you DC.

Loved the check-in with Roy (I mean Will) and seeing Lian grow a bit makes me feel good. Seeing Garth and Donna in Ep. 2 only for a brief scene made me so damn happy, her costume is very uninspired but I love that she's a diplomat like Diana was. I love the fact that Garth has his purple eyes which a lot of artist forget to add. Young Justice is doing what they always do, take the overall history/legacy (the good and the bad) of the DCU and blend it together with original ideas for a new and familiar product that improves on those original mistakes. So far this season has that classic mix of Batman leaving for the Outsiders mixed Rebirth ideas like Grayson and certain design choices. Brion is probably my favorite of the new characters so far will jump back in after I finish the rest.

DC really upped the tone unsubtly this season, I get that they are no longer restricted by Cartoon Network on that front but the amount of blood and upfront killing feels off. When I think of killing in DC animated stuff I think of more clever ways around it like BTAS Robin's Reckoning with the shadows of Dick's parents then the broken rope swings in with the crowd's shocked reaction. That has stuck with me more than some other bloody upfront killing. 

I like Black Lightning dealing with that grief and that death felt well done. Watch Failsafe from season 1 and you'll get what I mean. The whole team dies along with the League. The tension and grief is there but the deaths aren't so in your face about it.

----------


## byrd156

Since I'm finally looking at the DCU app and everything I decided to look at their history of Dick.

In his character wiki thing on there, they have no covers showcasing him and the Titans. Not even the NTT but they have Winnick's Outsiders on display. But the overall discriptions for different eras were alright, the Rebirth one made me laugh because of the lack of detail.

Screen Shot 2019-01-04 at 12.00.45 PM.jpg

----------


## Ascended

> Dick with an undercut, y/n?


As long as its long on top, sure. 

Maybe its because I discovered Nightwing during the ponytail era of the early 90's but in my mind, Nightwing's hair should always be on the longer side. Not as long as that ponytail was, but shoulder length or so.

----------


## oasis1313

> Since I'm finally looking at the DCU app and everything I decided to look at their history of Dick.
> 
> In his character wiki thing on there, they have no covers showcasing him and the Titans. Not even the NTT but they have Winnick's Outsiders on display. But the overall discriptions for different eras were alright, the Rebirth one made me laugh because of the lack of detail.
> 
> Screen Shot 2019-01-04 at 12.00.45 PM.jpg


Darlin' Dan wrote that.  It took him two weeks to come up with that many words about Nightwing that were printable.

----------


## Robanker

I'll chime in and say that perhaps because I discovered Nightwing with the Dixon run and later read both backwards and forwards, I always think of him with a longer mane as well. Visually it helps make him look a little more distinct from all the other dark-haired, blue-eyed white guys in the Bat family... Which until Duke was pretty much all of the ones in tights.

That said, he also has a very distinct haircut in his early days as Robin too. Dick's all about his hair, I guess!

I'll also say the DCU app pages for specific characters aren't particularly descriptive, more of a way to give newer fans a quick idea about a character rather than anything comprehensive. The Power Girl entry makes some note about Tanya, but it's 95% about Kara despite being a catch-all for both PGs. That said, they update often and I've not looked in a minute, so maybe there's more going on there!

----------


## Restingvoice

So after Hush, my next read was a couple of Infinite Crisis issues. It was very heavily marketed and then I found them in the bargain bin so I grabbed it. I already know the gist of the plot from a Wizard magazine that discussed the return of the Crisis of Infinite Earth heroes. 

The first issue saw the Titans on earth. Donna's going away and Nightwing hoped what she did was important as the sky above him was filled with OMAC.

...but the stand out scene was when Batman managed to get in Brother's Eye using the other heroes as a distraction, and when he's trying to end his creation, it broadcast Nightwing's face all over the wall to distract him, as at that moment his favorite was leading the other set of heroes to rescue Power Girl and the others and is in danger of possibly getting killed by Superboy Prime. 

Not much this reading added, except the declaration that Nightwing is Batman's favorite. That was new. I knew from Hush he tolerated a lot from Nightwing, but that's it. 

In hindsight though, that was the first time I saw Nightwing used as a Batman bait. 

I mean... Robin has a history being a hostage and Batman bait, but not the adult version.

----------


## dropkickjake

Nightwing hair for me should always be a bit on the shaggy side, but not as long as the mullet.

----------


## Robanker

A mullet is way too long, I agree. 

I've recently begun rereading Dixon's run again and I forgot just how much I love this cover to one of the older trades. Easily one of the most striking visuals of Nightwing I can think of and one I'd gladly frame if I could find a textless poster of it.

Nightwing_A_Knight_in_Bludhaven.jpg

The way Dixon and McDaniel get him out of that silly ponytail he had at the time was magnificent.

----------


## 9th.

Spyral tech made an appearance!

----------


## byrd156

> Nightwing hair for me should always be a bit on the shaggy side, but not as long as the mullet.


Shaggy/short is always the way to go.

----------


## yohyoi

> Spyral tech made an appearance!


Young Justice is best thing DC made this decade. It's this generation's JLU. It's great to see kids grow up with Dick Grayson.

----------


## yohyoi

> So after Hush, my next read was a couple of Infinite Crisis issues. It was very heavily marketed and then I found them in the bargain bin so I grabbed it. I already know the gist of the plot from a Wizard magazine that discussed the return of the Crisis of Infinite Earth heroes. 
> 
> The first issue saw the Titans on earth. Donna's going away and Nightwing hoped what she did was important as the sky above him was filled with OMAC.
> 
> ...but the stand out scene was when Batman managed to get in Brother's Eye using the other heroes as a distraction, and when he's trying to end his creation, it broadcast Nightwing's face all over the wall to distract him, as at that moment his favorite was leading the other set of heroes to rescue Power Girl and the others and is in danger of possibly getting killed by Superboy Prime. 
> 
> Not much this reading added, except the declaration that Nightwing is Batman's favorite. That was new. I knew from Hush he tolerated a lot from Nightwing, but that's it. 
> 
> In hindsight though, that was the first time I saw Nightwing used as a Batman bait. 
> ...


Dick is Bruce's favorite son. Bruce will actually cross the line and use a gun if someone kills Dick. Some people hate it but it has been shown time and time again.

Dick was also supposed to die in Infinite Crisis, which is why he was a bait. But DC employees were outraged on this decision, so Geoff Johns offered Superboy instead. This started the ongoing long feud of Dick Grayson and Dan DiDio. Dick is eternally loved in both the comic world and real world.

Dick is also the heart of the DCU. When the pre-Crisis Superman saw the post-Crisis world. Everything was worse except Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson at his core is a good person and therefore a great hero.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is truly my favorite hero and one of the greatest characters made. His development and continuous evolution are not match by any comic character. Whether he is Robin, Nightwing, Batman, etc., he owns it and stands out. Not only that but Dick Grayson is a versatile character that can be used in almost everything. Teen Titans Go movie, Titans tv and Young Justice animated. All loved by critics and audience alike. Dick Grayson will continue to fly to greater heights.

Also, he is hot as hell. As in damn, how can a fictional character be so hot?!

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick is Bruce's favorite son. Bruce will actually cross the line and use a gun if someone kills Dick. Some people hate it but it has been shown time and time again.
> 
> Dick was also supposed to die in Infinite Crisis, which is why he was a bait. But DC employees were outraged on this decision, so Geoff Johns offered Superboy instead. This started the ongoing long feud of Dick Grayson and Dan DiDio. Dick is eternally loved in both the comic world and real world.
> 
> Dick is also the heart of the DCU. When the pre-Crisis Superman saw the post-Crisis world. Everything was worse except Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson at his core is a good person and therefore a great hero.


Yeah. The story about Didio wanting to kill Dick in Infinite Crisis was legendary, and I saw the page where old Clark was talking to Bruce while looking for pics.  

After that I only read Wizard magazines my friend owned for info. Damian came along, and then Batman died and there was the next generation of Dynamic Duo. I already talked about this in Damian forum so I'm not gonna repeat it here. Seeing that development really tempted me to jump in reading, but I also heard about Morrison's lengthy saga, so I decided to track down the reading order first.

Then, right as I was making a Post Crisis timeline, The New 52 happened. So I decided to jump in then.

----------


## Ascended

> I've recently begun rereading Dixon's run again and I forgot just how much I love this cover to one of the older trades. Easily one of the most striking visuals of Nightwing I can think of and one I'd gladly frame if I could find a textless poster of it.


Oh yeah, McDaniel was the first artist I saw who really made me think "Yeah, this guy is an acrobat!" He really pulled out some great visuals and made Nightwing's movement and fighting style stand out from the rest of the Bat-pack. Looking back, a lot of the ways McDaniel handled Nightwing's fight scenes reminds me of how Kirby would handle Captain America. For my money, McDaniel is one of the definitive Nightwing artists.




> Dick is also the heart of the DCU. When the pre-Crisis Superman saw the post-Crisis world. Everything was worse except Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson at his core is a good person and therefore a great hero.


Oh yeah, I forgot about that! 

There was also a scene with Superman post-Rebirth where Clark, still living as a multiversal refugee, finds Nightwing and talks about how, no matter the world, Dick Grayson is still Dick Grayson and his seal of approval means a lot to Clark.

When Superman values your opinion so much that he's still impressed by "alternate" versions of you, and alternate versions of Clark do the same, you must be doing something right.  :Smile:

----------


## Robanker

> Oh yeah, McDaniel was the first artist I saw who really made me think "Yeah, this guy is an acrobat!" He really pulled out some great visuals and made Nightwing's movement and fighting style stand out from the rest of the Bat-pack. Looking back, a lot of the ways McDaniel handled Nightwing's fight scenes reminds me of how Kirby would handle Captain America. For my money, McDaniel is one of the definitive Nightwing artists.


I agree completely and it's a shame that his work is overlooked these days. The Dixon run in general doesn't seem to get mentioned much at all and there's a lot to like in it.

----------


## bearman

McDaniel was great, no doubt. 
 Now that Titans has proved itself, I am hoping Dick will have a more acrobatic fighting style like that, as opposed to him being the bruiser he is now.

----------


## byrd156

Don't forget Perez, the way he drew Dick flipping around or leaping through the air was incredible. Not as fluid as McDaniel but it just feels solid like they are still frames of an acrobat in motion.

----------


## Robanker

> Don't forget Perez, the way he drew Dick flipping around or leaping through the air was incredible. Not as fluid as McDaniel but it just feels solid like they are still frames of an acrobat in motion.


I think the main difference is that Perez will never be forgotten with respect to his contribution to Nightwing as a character. McDaniel is often overlooked in most discussions and it's criminal. That said, I agree entirely that Perez rendered Dick's agility wonderfully.

----------


## Ascended

> I think the main difference is that Perez will never be forgotten with respect to his contribution to Nightwing as a character. McDaniel is often overlooked in most discussions and it's criminal. That said, I agree entirely that Perez rendered Dick's agility wonderfully.


And like I said, McDaniel was the first artist *I* saw who pulled off the acrobatics to such a high degree. Perez did a great job but I wouldn't read his NTT until several years after the Dixon-McDaniel era of Nightwing had ended. I got into comics in the early 90's, wouldn't discover the Titans until Zero Hour, and then Dick was off the team and I wouldn't see him return until....JLA/Titans, I guess?

And I think Perez does a great job; the guy's talent cannot be oversold. I mean, he's a living legend in the field. but McDaniel made Dick straight up kinetic. In the same way that some artists can make Superman look like he can knock over a mountain while standing still, McD made Nightwing look like there was no feat of agility he couldnt perform; he was right up there with Spider-Man in terms of raw, OG parkour. 

As for the Dixon run....I think maybe a lot of old Titans fans were rubbed wrong but the way the series abandoned everything about Dick except for the Bat parts. We barely saw any of Wally or Roy, I don't think we saw Kori at all, and Dick was dealing with street level issues instead of the wider range of threats we saw in NTT. And if you weren't there at the time, to go back and read the Dixon run now.....it probably doesnt look all that impressive. It wouldn't stand out today like it did then because we've had virtually nothing except street level from Nightwing ever since.

----------


## byrd156

> And like I said, McDaniel was the first artist *I* saw who pulled off the acrobatics to such a high degree. Perez did a great job but I wouldn't read his NTT until several years after the Dixon-McDaniel era of Nightwing had ended. I got into comics in the early 90's, wouldn't discover the Titans until Zero Hour, and then Dick was off the team and I wouldn't see him return until....JLA/Titans, I guess?
> 
> And I think Perez does a great job; the guy's talent cannot be oversold. I mean, he's a living legend in the field. but McDaniel made Dick straight up kinetic. In the same way that some artists can make Superman look like he can knock over a mountain while standing still, McD made Nightwing look like there was no feat of agility he couldnt perform; he was right up there with Spider-Man in terms of raw, OG parkour. 
> 
> As for the Dixon run....I think maybe a lot of old Titans fans were rubbed wrong but the way the series abandoned everything about Dick except for the Bat parts. We barely saw any of Wally or Roy, I don't think we saw Kori at all, and Dick was dealing with street level issues instead of the wider range of threats we saw in NTT. And if you weren't there at the time, to go back and read the Dixon run now.....it probably doesnt look all that impressive. It wouldn't stand out today like it did then because we've had virtually nothing except street level from Nightwing ever since.


Dick is just as much a DC/Titans character as his a Bat character. I think he needs a Dixon like execution to return to a more middle ground of these two worlds. A lot of modern Dick especially in solo stories lean too much in the Bat direction.

Dick needs a new solo that really pushes him more into the DCU but I can't see something like this happening with the current management.

----------


## Ascended

> Dick is just as much a DC/Titans character as his a Bat character. I think he needs a Dixon like execution to return to a more middle ground of these two worlds. A lot of modern Dick especially in solo stories lean too much in the Bat direction.
> 
> Dick needs a new solo that really pushes him more into the DCU but I can't see something like this happening with the current management.


Agreed on all points. Including, regretfully, the last.

Anyone have Didio's number? Give me an hour and I can sell him on Dick Grayson. I have a lot of experience in sales (Im actually pretty impressive there) and I'm pretty good with marketing and business theory. I can convince him to let Nightwing fly free.  :Smile: 

I think what Dick could benefit from right now is an approach in the vein of that Batman: Brave & The Bold cartoon from some years ago. That put Bruce in all kinds of crazy Silver Age-ish adventures and he would travel space, time, go to other dimensions, and exotic locations around the DCU. You barely saw the guy in Gotham and he'd fight vampires, metahumans, aliens, monsters, and gods just as often (if not more) than thugs, bank robbers, terrorists and psychopaths. I think Nightwing could fill such a role very easily, I think it'd fit him like a glove, and I dont think we really have a book like that in DC's schedule. We have a few characters like Superman who hit many of those notes, but no one without powers even comes close, really, with the occasional exception of Bruce and that's mostly tied to the League, and thus doesnt totally count. Combine all that with a unique niche and role for Dick (like being the DCU super-spy we always talk about) and you've got a formula that just might get Nightwing over the sales ceiling he's currently limited by.

As for Dixon.....when he took the character on Dick had just returned to the Bat office, and they were trying to distance the character from the declining Titans franchise. I get why they forced Nightwing back into street level and pushed his ties with the Bat and Gotham while ignoring almost everything else. At the time it was kind of novel and new because we hadn't seen Dick like that in a long time. It fit the gritty 90's, especially with the Titans burning away into irrelevance. But that was two decades ago and it's past time to let Dick stretch his wings again.

#MakeNightwingFlyAgain

----------


## oasis1313

> Agreed on all points. Including, regretfully, the last.
> 
> Anyone have Didio's number? Give me an hour and I can sell him on Dick Grayson. I have a lot of experience in sales (Im actually pretty impressive there) and I'm pretty good with marketing and business theory. I can convince him to let Nightwing fly free.


If you can sell Didio on Dick Grayson, I'll buy you a plane ticket to the DC offices.

----------


## dropkickjake

So I finally read Nightwing: The Untouchable

That was so much better than I expected it to be. Don't know why I didn't give it a chance sooner. I really liked the Judge. I really liked Lucy. I really liked how central the Vegas feel of Bludhaven was to the story. Wish Humphries had stayed on, actually.

----------


## Avi

> So I finally read Nightwing: The Untouchable
> 
> That was so much better than I expected it to be. Don't know why I didn't give it a chance sooner. I really liked the Judge. I really liked Lucy. I really liked how central the Vegas feel of Bludhaven was to the story. Wish Humphries had stayed on, actually.


I read it all in one go as well and I guess it dpes read better that way, especially with the knowledge that Humphries was not writing for the long run.

The Judge is still a compelling villain, that could be used by others again.

Blüdhaven had more of a Vegas vibe tham even under Seeley and the glittery inner city was in beautiful contrast to the sunken city of its past.

----------


## Ascended

> If you can sell Didio on Dick Grayson, I'll buy you a plane ticket to the DC offices.


I think the hard part would be getting *into* the office to talk to the man.  :Smile:  But I'm willing to bet I could talk Didio into treating Dick better. He's listened to reason in the past and I think I could get him to listen to me now. I've had to deal with harder clients.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think the hard part would be getting *into* the office to talk to the man.  But I'm willing to bet I could talk Didio into treating Dick better. He's listened to reason in the past and I think I could get him to listen to me now. I've had to deal with harder clients.


No need for the office, just ask him at the next con QnA

----------


## Godlike13

> So I finally read Nightwing: The Untouchable
> 
> That was so much better than I expected it to be. Don't know why I didn't give it a chance sooner. I really liked the Judge. I really liked Lucy. I really liked how central the Vegas feel of Bludhaven was to the story. Wish Humphries had stayed on, actually.


My one real issue with that story was that Dick’s character didn’t really get anything out of it. Nothing culminated for him or his character.

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## dropkickjake

> My one real issue with that story was that Dick’s character didn’t really get anything out of it. Nothing culminated for him or is character.


I dont think he needs to "get" anything out of it. He was a good detective and took down a pretty well developed villain. I enjoyed the worldbuilding of this graphic novel way more than the world building Seeley did in Bludhaven. Plus, Judge was a good foil villain for Dick. I also liked his zany backstory. Lots to like in the story overall.

----------


## Ascended

> No need for the office, just ask him at the next con QnA


A con isn't the place for the conversation this would require, I think. There'd be really boring, dry business elements to discuss that have little place at a panel and 95% of the people there wouldn't understand a word of it. Plus, a panel is supposed to be fun, where the creators and fans talk about what they're excited about. Didio wouldn't thank me for telling him, publicly, that the company is undervaluing one of their IP's, and certainly wouldn't want to hear any solutions I might cook up after embarrassing him like that. I'd be lucky if he didn't have me thrown out on my ass, and rightfully so if I ambushed him like that.

Not to mention it's a conversation that would take more than the couple minutes and two sentence answers cons usually give.

And that's all assuming, of course, that I have as firm a grip on the business side as I think I might and Dick actually *is* being undervalued. The data we have access to leads me to believe it (as well as my own bias, let's be honest here  :Smile:  ) but just because I don't have access to that data doesn't mean it's not there and doesn't prove my opinion wrong. 

No, what I'd need is to stumble on Didio at a bar afterwards where it'd be less public, we'd have more time to talk, and I could outline the details on how I think Dick could become more profitable without stepping on Batman's revenue. Assuming he'd even listen to some random dude telling him his business. And while I might be a pretty solid business student, the emphasis there is on *student* and despite my managerial experience I dont work in publishing and there's tricks to that industry I don't know about. Honestly, even if I'm 100% right about all of it, Didio would be foolish to give me the time of day. I have no pedigree here. Im just talking mostly out of my own ass.  :Big Grin:

----------


## byrd156

> My one real issue with that story was that Dick’s character didn’t really get anything out of it. Nothing culminated for him or is character.


Not every arc can be character defining, a constant influx of fun/enjoyable stories can build and keep momentum for the character.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh if it's a pitch, the first step to get noticed is having good published writing he likes. That's how Didio found Ben Percy. 

Yeah I know, I'm just putting this out there, in case there's a writer who likes Dick watching.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Not every arc can be character defining, a constant influx of fun/enjoyable stories can build and keep momentum for the character.


Nor should they be, IMO. Court of Owls was a pretty damn successful batman story, but I wouldn't say it was character defining. It was just a good batman story.

Untouchable felt like a well executed Dixon-esque story. It was a good Nightwing story. Judge worked well as a Nightwing specific villain. He is a reflection of Dick's own charisma, leadership ability, and knack for making friends, but he is a perversion of all of these. He is the antithesis of Dick's view of humanity. "Every heart is full of corruption" vs "We are not our worst moments."

----------


## Godlike13

But it wasn’t really a Nightwing story, nor was it short. It was a story in Nightwing. Dick didn’t have a character arc, he never really learned or grew from the multiple times he failed. And he failed repeatedly. He basically just kept playing the game till somone helped him, and that how he finally got one over on the Judge. The arc didn’t need to be character defining, that’s not my point, but Dick should be getting something out the story. He shouldn’t just be there to bear witness to the villain. Like I’m cool with Dick getting his ass kicked and failing, but at least then lead to something with those failures or defeats. Like with Raptor. Judge was interesting, but Dick’s story in that story. Not so much.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I feel the arc gets interrupted., cut short and incomplete, since we never got to know what exactly is the Judge, but the way you say it about Dick Godlike13, then Bruce never successed in anything he does either. He never learned to REALLY defeat Joker and others. and only got more depressed. That's how their job works. It will account to nothing and they got drained, but they did it and tries to save whoever they can anyway and maybe though that, themselves. That's the lesson Dick learned. To me it was good and if only it got more "complete", i would watch a film/movie of the arc because it has everything Dick Grayson is, dated back not only to Dixon but even Hudson U. student Dick in the 70s and reminded me of Black Mirror too.

----------


## dropkickjake

Honestly I think the worst part was the crossfit gym. 

So I did misunderstand your point. Figured. Dick was a pretty static character in that one, for sure. More time was spent developing Judge, but Dick is already pretty established, so I don't have a problem with that. (It did, however, bring in some Hudson U past for Dick!) I'd say Dick ended up winning more because he was the *one* person that the judge couldn't manipulate by playing off the corruption in Dick's heart. (Though, to be fair I really don't think Dick has deep rooted need to be "forgiven," so that was off base.)

Overall, I don't think it was lights out or anything. It wasn't as good as Grayson, or the Raptor arcs of Seeley's work. I do think it was better than most of Seeley's Bludhaven arcs though. It felt a bit like a Dixon story to me, but with a more well developed villain.




> I feel the arc gets interrupted., cut short and incomplete, since we never got to know what exactly is the Judge, but the way you say it about Dick Godlike13, then Bruce never successed in anything he does either. He never learned to REALLY defeat Joker and others. and only got more depressed. That's how their job works. It will account to nothing and they got drained, but they did it and tries to save whoever they can anyway and maybe though that, themselves. That's the lesson Dick learned. To me it was good and if only it got more "complete", i would watch a film/movie of the arc because it has everything Dick Grayson is, dated back not only to Dixon but even Hudson U. student Dick in the 70s and reminded me of Black Mirror too.


Judge told us who he is. Do we believe that he is hundreds of years old? Do we believe "the sea sent him back?" I dunno. I like that origin, but I also like that it comes from an unreliable narrator (himself). I dig that little bit of mystery about him.

----------


## Badou

I didn't find Judge that interesting but the arc had good moments. The cliche of "a mystery from the hero's past" just felt a bit tried. None of Judge's actions really made much sense or why he was even in Bludhaven. It felt more like Humphries had an idea for a villain and really liked the set pieces of him killing people in a flashy way and that was kind of all he was. Then again I wasn't big on Raptor as a villain either. He felt fine but I never got why people gushed over Raptor so much. Felt he got a bit worse over time. Especially the part with Dick's mom later. So maybe I'm just not big on the mystery villain from the hero's past bit, lol. 

I think the best parts about the Judge arc was the art obviously. Bernard Chang's art was probably my favorite we've had in all of Rebirth. Just very dynamic and colorful and it helped with the arc being more fun than it was. Nightwing has generally had good art for a while. Problem with the art now is the rotating artists they have on the title are way too different from each other where it becomes very distracting. The other thing I liked about the arc was just the inclusion of this sharkmen people. I think Bludhaven is a garbage heap of a setting and I never understood why creators just don't dump as much crazy and ridiculous stuff in it as they can. It isn't like Bludhaven has any entrenched value where they can't change it. So just have crazy monsters, over the top villains, demons, robots, aliens and all matter of things you can possibly imagine and just make it as ridiculous as possible. Just random shark people living there felt like a small tip of what they could do with it.

----------


## Godlike13

The stuff with Raptor and Dick's mom has really grown on me as time went on. Hell of an implication to leave on.

----------


## byrd156

> The stuff with Raptor and Dick's mom has really grown on me after time has went on. Hell of an implication to leave on.


Raptor is basically Snape from Harry Potter. He loved his mom but never had her.

----------


## Restingvoice

I forgot where I was in my Dick History... oh yeah. Entering New 52. There was some discussion back then about Dick being downgraded now he's back as Nightwing, but as a casual, I prefer to see something familiar and full view of that body. 

The first one I picked up actually wasn't Nightwing but The Court of Owls and it has enough Dick in it, doing the thing I know him for, giving Bruce some advice. The red costume, the circus, and the punch didn't bother me much compared to now that the circus left and he's been punched over and over.

806b6be32c3197cccd62019839120247._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

Playing with the bat ear

----------


## Badou

> Raptor is basically Snape from Harry Potter. He loved his mom but never had her.


No, there was implication that he might have had her which I wasn't a big fan of. That passionate kiss panel. We discussed it when it came out if it was a set up for a possible who is Dick's real father story line.

----------


## Avi

> I forgot where I was in my Dick History... oh yeah. Entering New 52. There was some discussion back then about Dick being downgraded now he's back as Nightwing, but as a casual, I prefer to see something familiar and full view of that body. 
> 
> The first one I picked up actually wasn't Nightwing but The Court of Owls and it has enough Dick in it, doing the thing I know him for, giving Bruce some advice. The red costume, the circus, and the punch didn't bother me much compared to now that the circus left and he's been punched over and over.
> 
> 806b6be32c3197cccd62019839120247._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg
> 
> Playing with the bat ear


I still love that playing with the bat ear panel and I wish writers would have done more with the electronic mask Dick is wearing. It's a cool gadget.

The hit was still more brutal than necessary but yeah, it is not the worst punch Dick has gotten by now.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah I like how that image work with both Joker and Dick

Also... found it! The sky of OMAC during Infinite Crisis

infinite-3-omac-sky.jpg

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Belated happy new year everyone. Even though Dick is still getting a raw deal in the comics for the foreseeable future, there is light on the horizon (for me), Titans is on EU Netflix in four days!

I've also pre ordered this 

dc-comics-nightwing-and-batgirl-statue-dc-collectibles-903616-02_1200x1200.jpg

I'm not a huge Dickbabs shipper or anything but this is beautiful and the pose is really dynamic. I can't wait

----------


## Avi

> Belated happy new year everyone. Even though Dick is still getting a raw deal in the comics for the foreseeable future, there is light on the horizon (for me), Titans is on EU Netflix in four days!
> 
> I've also pre ordered this 
> 
> dc-comics-nightwing-and-batgirl-statue-dc-collectibles-903616-02_1200x1200.jpg
> 
> I'm not a huge Dickbabs shipper or anything but this is beautiful and the pose is really dynamic. I can't wait


I'm with you on the Titans release. Can't wait to see a proper episode after waiting for so long.

----------


## Restingvoice

Look at all those wasted supporting casts

SEP110135_2._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

This is my favorite New 52 Nightwing cover because it's his supporting cast, his family, his setting. They're supposed to stick around, dangit.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> Look at all those wasted supporting casts
> 
> SEP110135_2._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg
> 
> This is my favorite New 52 Nightwing cover because it's his supporting cast, his family, his setting. They're supposed to stick around, dangit.


This was a great story with awesome art by Eddy Barrows. It's too bad the rest of the series didn't continue this way.

This was when I first started collecting Nightwing on my own. I was buying it on a regular basis, even through Grayson,  but just dropped it a couple of months ago because it just got so bad.

Oh well. I lasted about 7 years straight at least.

----------


## byrd156

> No, there was implication that he might have had her which I wasn't a big fan of. That passionate kiss panel. We discussed it when it came out if it was a set up for a possible who is Dick's real father story line.


Sure they kissed but I personally interpreted it as that being all Raptor ever got, he never really had her. Mary loved Raptor but not in the way she loved John. That storyline is still available and it's something I would like to see but they won't make him Dick's father.

----------


## byrd156

> This was a great story with awesome art by Eddy Barrows. It's too bad the rest of the series didn't continue this way.
> 
> This was when I first started collecting Nightwing on my own. I was buying it on a regular basis, even through Grayson,  but just dropped it a couple of months ago because it just got so bad.
> 
> Oh well. I lasted about 7 years straight at least.


I just sold off all my New 52 books, Nightwing included. Only kept issue 29 of Nightwing.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> I just sold off all my New 52 books, Nightwing included. Only kept issue 29 of Nightwing.


Because new 52 was so terrible?

29. That was a great issue. A great closing and summation of Dick by Higgins.

----------


## byrd156

> Because new 52 was so terrible?
> 
> 29. That was a great issue. A great closing and summation of Dick by Higgins.


Oh yeah, I was just tired of seeing those books on my shelf.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> Oh yeah, I was just tired of seeing those books on my shelf.


Haha!!! That' great. I don't blame you.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

6bf73f208bb4081daf6c7742c4d08d5d.jpg

I'd buy it.

----------


## byrd156

> 6bf73f208bb4081daf6c7742c4d08d5d.jpg
> 
> I'd buy it.


Brett Booth, even though his art is very so-so I love his enthusiasm when it comes to comics.

----------


## Ascended

I love Booth. He's not always the most technically accurate artist around; that image with Spidey has several problems like the size of Dick's legs and calves. And Booth isn't great at putting atmosphere and tone into his work, largely it seems because he doesn't employ much shadows or negative space. But he's got a good eye for layouts, he's better than many comic artists at facial expressions (he can do surprised, angry, and happy while most can just do angry) and his costume design, though always busy, is consistent across parts and layers and is always detailed. And it usually stays pretty close to the spirit of the character, unless he's actively going for something different on purpose (most of the time). 

And more than anything, he's capable of injecting a sense of kinetic energy into his work that can only be rivaled by a few; Rocafort, McDaniel, Ramos.......damn few can make a image move like Booth can. And I think people who dont draw often don't realize how hard that really is. I'd happily take Booth as a Nightwing artist over a lot of others out there. He might not be my first pick but he'd be on the short list.

But I'm likely biased as well. Back when I did commercial art my style was very close to the Top Cow/90's Image house style and I took a lot of inspiration from Michael Turner and Jim Lee. And Booth clearly takes a page or two from those guys as well. I mean, that Spidey might as well have been drawn by McFarlene (or however his name gets spelled).

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah his run on Nightwing was perfect. Eddie Barrows, by contrast, was a better artist in some ways, but never made Nightwing feel like he was moving like Booth did. Plus, one of Booth's biggest problems was sameface (which would be an awesome name for a villain... dibs!), which is more pronounced on a team book like Titans or Teen Titans, but less of a problem in a solo series.

On the subject artists I'd really love to see on Nightwing, I've had Trevor McCarthy on the top of my list for a while. He captures movement well and I just enjoy his style. His work on Gates was great, and his issue of n52 nightwing was fantastic as well. He had a short run back in the Dixon days, but I think his style matured quite a bit after that. It could also be that he just got a better inker and colorist though. Rocafort would also be super high on my list. His books are just always so damn pretty.



And back to The Untouchable, the differing views might have a lot to do with context. I read it while Ric is being published. I'm just glad to read Dick being Nightwing... hell, being Dick (even if he has the stupidest day job ever). Most of y'all read it as it was being published, which means it was hot on the heels of Seeley's run. Seeley wasn't perfect, but he was pretty damn good.

----------


## oasis1313

> I love Booth. He's not always the most technically accurate artist around; that image with Spidey has several problems like the size of Dick's legs and calves. And Booth isn't great at putting atmosphere and tone into his work, largely it seems because he doesn't employ much shadows or negative space. But he's got a good eye for layouts, he's better than many comic artists at facial expressions (he can do surprised, angry, and happy while most can just do angry) and his costume design, though always busy, is consistent across parts and layers and is always detailed. And it usually stays pretty close to the spirit of the character, unless he's actively going for something different on purpose (most of the time). 
> 
> And more than anything, he's capable of injecting a sense of kinetic energy into his work that can only be rivaled by a few; Rocafort, McDaniel, Ramos.......damn few can make a image move like Booth can. And I think people who dont draw often don't realize how hard that really is. I'd happily take Booth as a Nightwing artist over a lot of others out there. He might not be my first pick but he'd be on the short list.
> 
> But I'm likely biased as well. Back when I did commercial art my style was very close to the Top Cow/90's Image house style and I took a lot of inspiration from Michael Turner and Jim Lee. And Booth clearly takes a page or two from those guys as well. I mean, that Spidey might as well have been drawn by McFarlene (or however his name gets spelled).


I think Booth is wonderful--particularly from the kinetic aspect you describe.  Rocafort art would be beautiful.

----------


## Restingvoice

DIG010112_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

I like the red on black. It's the sky I don't like. Red on red. Too hot.

----------


## byrd156

> DIG010112_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg
> 
> I like the red on black. It's the sky I don't like. Red on red. Too hot.


The New 52 as a whole was filled with too much red. From costumes to the skies to environments. It felt like everything was red all the time.

I like red on black but not for Nightwing. Plus that outfit looked too armored and the chest symbol too big, not a fan of the arm spikes either. Too batman like.

----------


## Godlike13

I hate the red. Not the color itself, but when you have Robin, Red Hood, and Red Robin Nightwing really doesn’t need to be colored in red too.

Also i wasn’t fan of Barrows in general. Didn’t think he was right for Nightwing, and he could barely do a full issue.

----------


## 9th.

> Attachment 76419
> 
> I like the red on black. It's the sky I don't like. Red on red. Too hot.


I loved the red, just not the red eyes.

----------


## Gurz

Check out my signiture yo ! it's sweet.  :Big Grin: 

edit----

Forget about it, i tried to make my signiture a sweet nightwing signiture, but the file was too big or something, it didn't happen... :/

----------


## WallyWestFlash

I liked the red as well. It's not classic Nightwing and blue matches better but it still looks cool. The glove spikes included. 

Maybe not as the regular suit but I wouldn't mind seeing the red one for different occasions.

----------


## dropkickjake

Wasn't really a fan of the red suit. I liked Brett Booth's version, though. My main problem wasn't the color, but how big the symbol or what not was on his chest. Booth made it a bit smaller and added the much missed finger stripes.

----------


## Drako

I don't mind the red now and the Brett Booth redesign is actually my second favorite costume after the classic. 



The current one is cool but too simple for me. I wish he had at least a place for the gadgets.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

Yeah, not really a fan of the Rebirth suit. Not as cool looking as the others.

----------


## Ascended

> I don't mind the red now and the Brett Booth redesign is actually my second favorite costume after the classic. 
> 
> 
> 
> The current one is cool but too simple for me. I wish he had at least a place for the gadgets.


I liked that design a lot too. Just the right balance between utility and aerodynamics. 

I never did warm up to the red color scheme. I tried, but it just didn't work for me. Made Dick look too much like a Robin, made him blend into the crowd too much.

And the current costume is okay, but the blue on his calves and forearms doesn't really match the rest of the line work and inconsistent details like that bother me. And with a costume as starkly simple as Nightwing's, it stands out a lot more. Plus I'm still not sure if I like the blue mask over the black one. I go back and forth on that one.

EDIT: Oh, yknow the little "belt" of red in that image above? In the game DCU Online there's a chest style with a chevron that everyone uses when they first make a Nightwing rip-off, and that style has the same little bits of color around the waist. I always thought that Booth might've gotten the idea for it from the game.

----------


## Restingvoice

Before they retcon Robin origin with Robin Year One, which origin did they use? Golden Age?

----------


## nightbird

> I hate the red. Not the color itself, but when you have Robin, Red Hood, and Red Robin Nightwing really doesnt need to be colored in red too.
> 
> Also i wasnt fan of Barrows in general. Didnt think he was right for Nightwing, and he could barely do a full issue.


others believe, that all current and ex-Robins should be dressed in one color scheme: red (lol).

----------


## Pohzee

> Before they retcon Robin origin with Robin Year One, which origin did they use? Golden Age?


Robin: Year One is not an origin story, just one set in his early career. It is directly proceeds the events of Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet which tells of Dick's first outing as Robin. I believe around that time, the most recent retelling of Dick's origin was in the pages of Dark Victory, which rather closely follow the events of Dick's first appearance and original origin, but within the context of the larger story.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

nightwing_by_junaidi-d7xoec5.jpg

I still like the red suit.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## byrd156

> nightwing_by_junaidi-d7xoec5.jpg
> 
> I still like the red suit.


It's not bad, just not as great as the black and blue.

----------


## Badou

Wasn't a fan of the suit design because it made it look like he was wearing a giant bow tie. Once I saw that I couldn't unsee it. Now it was at least okay unlike the New 52 Robin costume though, so put into context it wasn't as bad as that at least. 

I also didn't mind the arm spikes or them getting rid of the finger stripes (never been a fan), but the red was an issue because it felt like it was DC trying remove more of Dick's identity. They just wanted him to wear Red because they wanted all the Robins to look similar which defeats the purpose of him being Nightwing in the first place. Just too much red in the Batman family with Robin, Red Robin, Red Hood, Batwoman, and Nightwing would make it too much.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

The reason I don't like the red suit is because I don't like the armour lines that the New 52 was infamous for. Seams and such, those are cool, I don't the armour look. Sturdy armour should be what the suit has underneath. Take those lines off and give the suit a more interesting texture or whatever, and then it's awesome imo. But I also do agree that Dick being in red takes away from his identity.

Anyways, I don't think it's been brought up yet, but the YJ: Outsiders darkwear suits that Dick and his current squad are using are loosely based on the Spyral Agent uniform and come equipped with their own take on Hypnos. And that's sick imo.

----------


## Godlike13

The Spyral face cameras got me to pop.

----------


## byrd156

> The reason I don't like the red suit is because I don't like the armour lines that the New 52 was infamous for. Seams and such, those are cool, I don't the armour look. Sturdy armour should be what the suit has underneath. Take those lines off and give the suit a more interesting texture or whatever, and then it's awesome imo. But I also do agree that Dick being in red takes away from his identity.
> 
> Anyways, I don't think it's been brought up yet, but the YJ: Outsiders darkwear suits that Dick and his current squad are using are loosely based on the Spyral Agent uniform and come equipped with their own take on Hypnos. And that's sick imo.


They brought up the spyral stuff in the YJ thread for a bit.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> Anyways, I don't think it's been brought up yet, but the YJ: Outsiders darkwear suits that Dick and his current squad are using are loosely based on the Spyral Agent uniform and come equipped with their own take on Hypnos. And that's sick imo.


That part was cool. I liked the Spyral influence. Dick is the only thing I'm liking from the new season of YJ.  The rest of the show is just boring.

----------


## Restingvoice

> others believe, that all current and ex-Robins should be dressed in one color scheme: red (lol).


That's pretty much DC's idea. Make all Robins uniformly red and bring them under Batman 




> Robin: Year One is not an origin story, just one set in his early career. It is directly proceeds the events of Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet which tells of Dick's first outing as Robin. I believe around that time, the most recent retelling of Dick's origin was in the pages of Dark Victory, which rather closely follow the events of Dick's first appearance and original origin, but within the context of the larger story.


You guys told me before and I keep forgetting it 
I somehow also keep forgetting Dark Victory exist 




> Wasn't a fan of the suit design because it made it look like he was wearing a giant bow tie.


lol this one's new

----------


## byrd156

> That part was cool. I liked the Spyral influence. Dick is the only thing I'm liking from the new season of YJ.  The rest of the show is just boring.


What's boring about Brion and League falling apart?

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> What's boring about Brion and League falling apart?


I just don't find the whole plot of the child trafficking and cliche royal politics interesting.
I did find the disbandenment of the league interesting at the beginning and am waiting for them to return to that.

As for characters who I care about that draw me in, as I said I like how they show Dick, Superboy is just ok. And Artemis who I usually like is just bleh so far.

Everybody else I could not give two craps about.

----------


## byrd156

> I just don't find the whole plot of the child trafficking and cliche royal politics interesting.
> I did find the disbandenment of the league interesting at the beginning and am waiting for them to return to that.
> 
> As for characters who I care about that draw me in, as I said I like how they show Dick, Superboy is just ok. And Artemis who I usually like is just bleh so far.
> 
> Everybody else I could not give two craps about.


Well it's only 3 episodes in which isn't enough but I am so hyped for the trafficking angle and the birth of the Outsiders.

Brion is the stand out character so far for me. (other than Dick cause he's Dick.) I fell a Brion vs Terra fight coming, I can feel it in my bones like the Clegane bowl for GoT.

I really can't wait to see what other villains show up this season.

----------


## oasis1313

> That's pretty much DC's idea. Make all Robins uniformly red and bring them under Batman


Big boys wear blue.  Or, if big boys wear red, it's pretty much limited to headgear.  Little boys wear red tunics.  Cows don't have to wear tunics.

----------


## dropkickjake

Discussion topic: distance from Gotham to Bludhaven. Is there source material saying how far apart they are? Either way, what is your ideal distance between the two?

----------


## Godlike13

There use to be a map. I think it’s like New York to New Jersey distance.

----------


## Ascended

> Discussion topic: distance from Gotham to Bludhaven. Is there source material saying how far apart they are? Either way, what is your ideal distance between the two?


In the first issue of Dixon's run, it provides Bludhaven's location relative to Gotham. South, following the river to where it opens up to the ocean......I can't recall how many miles away. I wanna say 75 for some reason but I don't think that can be right. 

If left up to me and if there was room for it, I'd probably put 'Haven exactly between Metropolis and Gotham, provided each city is still an eight hour drive away; five by Batmobile. Bludhaven should be far enough away from Gotham to make sure Dick has to solve his own problems and he can't call reinforcements in at the last minute.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Since we were talking about Young Justice earlier, Bludhaven is actually a district within Gotham. Think Burnside from the comics. That means every time Dick or the Team were in Bludhaven they were still in Gotham. 

Ultimately, it says a lot about how Weisman and co. view Bludhaven. And I'd say that goes for a lot of us, too. Considering Dick was already one of the top dogs at the age of 18 in this universe, I don't really think it matters whether Dick had his own city to protect. By 19, he'd already spent a while as the de facto leader of the Team, turned down League membership, and came up with a secret plan (that worked all things considered) to take down the Light. And now at 21, he's out here going on his own selected missions and selecting recruits freely, that's pretty independent if you ask me.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t hate that. That way Bludhaven can just be where he lives, but doesn’t trap him in the city protector role.

----------


## Frontier

> Attachment 76474
> 
> I still like the red suit.


I thought the design really "popped" in the Judas Contract animated movie. I don't know why, I just thought it looked pretty good in animation. 

(I admit I'm biased because red is my favorite color).

----------


## oasis1313

> I don’t hate that. That way Bludhaven can just be where he lives, but doesn’t trap him in the city protector role.


It might make more sense if Dick went back to Romania.

----------


## Godlike13

What?
....

----------


## Ascended

I definitely dont think Dick needs a city to protect. Not every hero has to be stuck in one location. 

I do think he needs a home and a neighborhood of his own though. Even if it's just where he goes at the end of a mission, he needs that sense of "grounding." Besides, it's one of those things that an A-list hero is supposed to have and even if Nightwing isn't the type of guy to hang about one place, he still needs somewhere to hang his mask.

----------


## oasis1313

> I definitely dont think Dick needs a city to protect. Not every hero has to be stuck in one location. 
> 
> I do think he needs a home and a neighborhood of his own though. Even if it's just where he goes at the end of a mission, he needs that sense of "grounding." Besides, it's one of those things that an A-list hero is supposed to have and even if Nightwing isn't the type of guy to hang about one place, he still needs somewhere to hang his mask.


I'd like it to be someplace like London.

----------


## yohyoi

Watch Young Justice! We need more seasons! This is the Dick Grayson we deserve!!! Forget the comics!

----------


## yohyoi

> Since we were talking about Young Justice earlier, Bludhaven is actually a district within Gotham. Think Burnside from the comics. That means every time Dick or the Team were in Bludhaven they were still in Gotham. 
> 
> Ultimately, it says a lot about how Weisman and co. view Bludhaven. And I'd say that goes for a lot of us, too. Considering Dick was already one of the top dogs at the age of 18 in this universe, I don't really think it matters whether Dick had his own city to protect. By 19, he'd already spent a while as the de facto leader of the Team, turned down League membership, and came up with a secret plan (that worked all things considered) to take down the Light. And now at 21, he's out here going on his own selected missions and selecting recruits freely, that's pretty independent if you ask me.


Dick is a badass. Turning down JL membership because he is a solo evil destroying machine. While in his frickin 20s. Defeating and outmaneuvering the Light, full of ancient villains. Going around the world, full time detective and spy. The only thing Dick is dependent on is crime, so he won't get bored.

----------


## yohyoi

Not to mention friends with benefits with Zatanna and Batgirl. Dick has nothing to prove. The only thing left to do is to suplex Darkseid.

----------


## yohyoi

Ahhhh!!!! I love Dick Grayson. Best character DC created  :Cool:

----------


## Rac7d*

> I definitely dont think Dick needs a city to protect. Not every hero has to be stuck in one location. 
> 
> I do think he needs a home and a neighborhood of his own though. Even if it's just where he goes at the end of a mission, he needs that sense of "grounding." Besides, it's one of those things that an A-list hero is supposed to have and even if Nightwing isn't the type of guy to hang about one place, he still needs somewhere to hang his mask.


Young jsutce Dick goes everywhere and anywhere , but then again this is a world where people stay dead and times mooves on

----------


## Jackalope89

> Young jsutce Dick goes everywhere and anywhere , but then again this is a world where people stay dead and times mooves on


Me thinks you need to rewatch the last 6 episodes. We have a character that literally keeps coming back to life, and another that popped up at the end of episode 6.

----------


## dietrich

> Watch Young Justice! We need more seasons! This is the Dick Grayson we deserve!!! Forget the comics!


Which is better Dick in Titans or YJ? I haven't ordered the streaming service but I enjoy Titans.

Just saw a post on the Tim thread that said this season of Yj is the worst so far so not sure how good it is.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Me thinks you need to rewatch the last 6 episodes. We have a character that literally keeps coming back to life, and another that popped up at the end of episode 6.


she the only one and im getting tired of them murdering thi fem poc over and over

----------


## Jackalope89

> Which is better Dick in Titans or YJ? I haven't ordered the streaming service but I enjoy Titans.
> 
> Just saw a post on the Tim thread that said this season of Yj is the worst so far so not sure how good it is.


Well, Dick hasn't blown up any buildings full of people or anything like that, and he's hunting down metahuman traffickers the world over. He keeps in contact with his friends too, asking them to help out if he feels he needs them. I don't want to spoil anymore, but it is good.

----------


## Jman27

> Which is better Dick in Titans or YJ? I haven't ordered the streaming service but I enjoy Titans.
> 
> Just saw a post on the Tim thread that said this season of Yj is the worst so far so not sure how good it is.


so far Yj cause he is actually an establish character. the one on Titans got daddy issues right now. And this season just started makes no sense to judge it now

----------


## Ascended

> I'd like it to be someplace like London.


Why London? 

I liked Bludhaven back when it was a dirty little ex-whaling town, and I like the potential of Vegashaven (especially with that Haley's Casino idea someone here deserves credit for. Stand up, good poster, and be recognized!) but ultimately a setting or city is only as good as the people writing it and I don't have any real ties to the location. 




> Watch Young Justice! We need more seasons! This is the Dick Grayson we deserve!!! Forget the comics!


Oh, Im going to watch it! (and I already dropped the comic a while ago; I'll return when the quality does) I've watched that show with my kids since the first season; its a family tradition now, and I'm sure I love it more than they do. Knowing there are new episodes out but not watching them is making me itch.  :Big Grin:  But I'm not interested in the DCU sub or in supporting the fragmentation of the streaming format by tv execs pissy about losing their ratings (damn, and Im usually anti-monopoly too!), so I'll either wait for the whole season to finish and then binge it, or wait for the blu-ray if they don't drag their feet. Despite it going against the streaming service business model, CBS released Star Trek Discovery onto DvD as quickly as if it were just a regular network show and I'm hoping WB is equally willing to put DvD sales before subscription numbers.

----------


## dietrich

> Well, Dick hasn't blown up any buildings full of people or anything like that, and he's hunting down metahuman traffickers the world over. He keeps in contact with his friends too, asking them to help out if he feels he needs them. I don't want to spoil anymore, but it is good.





> so far Yj cause he is actually an establish character. the one on Titans got daddy issues right now. And this season just started makes no sense to judge it now


Ahh Thanks guys. That helps make my mind up.

The daddy issue was my main peeve with the Titan version. YJ set up a healthy relationship between father and son

----------


## Pohzee

YJ certainly isn't as good as its heights, but it is still a pretty good show. Much better than pretty much everything happening in the comics. I've completely checked out of Nightwing comics. I haven't been excited for anything coming out in the past two years and it seemingly only gets worse. It is nice that DC headlined their streaming service with double-Dick because that's all I've got right now.

----------


## Godlike13

Just made it through the ep with 3 Roy Harpers. Honestly not sure how I did it.

----------


## Pohzee

> Just made it through the ep with 3 Roy Harpers. Honestly not sure how I did it.


So brave. Very proud of you, I know it must've been hard.

I think with a little reflection Will will realize that someone other than Dick may be using him to fill the hole that "Wall" used to fill.

Edit: Wait Artemis is his daughters's aunt. Also that was not meant to be a dirty joke.

----------


## Godlike13

> Which is better Dick in Titans or YJ? I haven't ordered the streaming service but I enjoy Titans.
> 
> Just saw a post on the Tim thread that said this season of Yj is the worst so far so not sure how good it is.


I could see Tim fans not being happy with the show so far.

----------


## Godlike13

> So brave. Very proud of you, I know it must've been hard.
> 
> I think with a little reflection Will will realize that someone other than Dick may be using him to fill the hole that "Wall" used to fill.
> 
> Edit: Wait Artemis is his daughters's aunt. Also that was not meant to be a dirty joke.


Shame Donna doesn’t have more of a presence.

----------


## Mataza

> I could see Tim fans not being happen with the show so far, lol.


He probably means me. And i really liked the first season, second season was very good as well, but there were a bunch of characters i didnt care for that were ultimately pointless, the new metas and blue bettle were by far the worst part.
The 3rd season hasnt grabbed me yet. Im really loving nightwing in it, but the plot is really boring so far. And theres no interesting interactions between characters like in the first season.

As for Tim, ive given up on the idea of the character appearing in any media outside of comics, so really dont care.

----------


## Avi

So Titans finally dropped internationally and I just watched the new YJ episodes. I do know which Dick I prefer but Titans!Dick has some good character beats, namely his relationships with other characters. While I was not too keen on seeing the circus people suffer again, I liked Clayton a lot and I hope he appears in S2 again instead of being forgotten. It's going to be interesting how S2 plays out for Dick. 

I am enjoying Dick's character in YJ and I hope to see him get more comfortable in his leader role again. YJ made me realize even more how few jokes Dick made in Titans, if he even made some at all.

----------


## Badou

I think Tim is supposed to get more focus later in the season. It is tough to juggle so many characters on the show and it makes sense they would want to open the new season after such a long wait with the more established characters. I am still interested in how they deal with characters like him and Steph later in the show. 


And it is great to see how well Dick as Nightwing is being used in the new YJ season. For so long I've been complaining about specific things in the comics and this YJ version is running with so many ideas I've wanted to see implemented for so long. He is only like 20 in the show but commands so much more respect and confidence that it makes the comic version feel so pathetic or stuck. He isn't anchored in Bludhaven trying to protect it, he is fully immersed in the DCU, he has moved on from the "team" after being old enough to go on his own and is creating new teams with old allies and new allies, he isn't bogged down with some normal job stuff and is doing what he enjoys by being a hero, and they structured a logical reason why he doesn't join the JL. 

If he wants he could join the JL but he prefers to work on his own outside of it and that decision isn't held against him. The JL are not refusing him from joining or treating him like a child, like in the comics, and he feels like an actual adult despite being younger than he is in the comics. He's been a hero for over a decade on the show by now and is using all his experiences to be the best hero he can be while also enjoying the work involved. It is just very satisfying seeing the character work but also frustrating because the comic version is so far off from this too.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick doesn't need to be jokey. I feel like that reduces his character. For large chunks of his history, Dick has been the straight man. The Dick in Titans is a pretty good interpretation of the NTT era Dick I think. However, YJ Dick is well-adapted, blending maturity with some levity. He's pretty much idealization of how modern Dick should be written.

Also, I kinda like the idea of Blüdhaven being a Gotham suburb. Give Babs Burnside and Dick Blüdhaven. Each close enough to interact with eachother and Batman, but far enough for relative and tonal independence. And he actually has a reason to be there. And he isn't anchored there. Once again better than the comics.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I could see Tim fans not being happy with the show so far.


Well with the birth of a certain demon baby I can see storyline feat him porminetley soon to force his evolution

----------


## oasis1313

Tim fans should be thrilled in perpetuity.  They always get everything great for Tim and they don't have to worry about DC shafting him.   He's got too much focus as it is.  We need MORE DICK (not Ric).   You know, I think I can understand why these "creative" bigwigs work for Warners, not DC:  At least THEY have talent so that's why they work for the mother ship.

----------


## Mataza

> Well with the birth of a certain demon baby I can see storyline feat him porminetley soon to force his evolution


havent seen the 3 newest episodes. But if damian was just born, doesnt that mean like 9 more years need to happen before hes prancing around?

----------


## Alycat

> I think Tim is supposed to get more focus later in the season. It is tough to juggle so many characters on the show and it makes sense they would want to open the new season after such a long wait with the more established characters. I am still interested in how they deal with characters like him and Steph later in the show. 
> 
> 
> And it is great to see how well Dick as Nightwing is being used in the new YJ season. For so long I've been complaining about specific things in the comics and this YJ version is running with so many ideas I've wanted to see implemented for so long. He is only like 20 in the show but commands so much more respect and confidence that it makes the comic version feel so pathetic or stuck. He isn't anchored in Bludhaven trying to protect it, he is fully immersed in the DCU, he has moved on from the "team" after being old enough to go on his own and is creating new teams with old allies and new allies, he isn't bogged down with some normal job stuff and is doing what he enjoys by being a hero, and they structured a logical reason why he doesn't join the JL. 
> 
> If he wants he could join the JL but he prefers to work on his own outside of it and that decision isn't held against him. The JL are not refusing him from joining or treating him like a child, like in the comics, and he feels like an actual adult despite being younger than he is in the comics. He's been a hero for over a decade on the show by now and is using all his experiences to be the best hero he can be while also enjoying the work involved. It is just very satisfying seeing the character work but also frustrating because the comic version is so far off from this too.


I agree with everything you've said.  I will continue to whine about the comics side of the equation, but I'm that YJ Nightwing is a well established and respected character.

----------


## juan678

Line it drawn

----------


## Rakiduam

Young Justice is doing all they can so I won't want to watch.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Why London? 
> 
> I liked Bludhaven back when it was a dirty little ex-whaling town, and I like the potential of Vegashaven (especially with that Haley's Casino idea someone here deserves credit for. Stand up, good poster, and be recognized!) but ultimately a setting or city is only as good as the people writing it and I don't have any real ties to the location.


Twas me, but only after that thread produced a dozen or so great ideas to feed off of. The best ideas come in community.




> Which is better Dick in Titans or YJ? I haven't ordered the streaming service but I enjoy Titans.
> 
> Just saw a post on the Tim thread that said this season of Yj is the worst so far so not sure how good it is.


I'd say Dick is better in YJ, but thats by no means a slight on Titans. YJ Dick is essentially the Dick we want to see in the comics, but while still being imperfect.




> Just made it through the ep with 3 Roy Harpers. Honestly not sure how I did it.


I actually liked that episode. The first three were better for sure, but this one was good. It felt like a more light hearted and fun episode than the previous three. Plus, it was nice seeing some of the characters have jobs and need to make money. Also nice to see a little bit of character flaws with Dick. Seems he is taking a similar path with Wally's death as he did in the comics with Donna.

----------


## dropkickjake

> havent seen the 3 newest episodes. But if damian was just born, doesnt that mean like 9 more years need to happen before hes prancing around?


RRrrrrrrrreally wish he was older. Was simultaneously stoked to see him and sad at how much time he'd need to be a major player. 




> Young Justice is doing all they can so I won't want to watch.


What?! How so?

----------


## Mataza

Saw the last 3 episodes to come out. Really liked the 4th one, felt indulgent, but i made me laugh a lot. Im guessing the whole VR googles will play a huge part later down the line.
The 5th episode was kinda boring and not much happened.
The 6th episode i liked, the prince and halo are growing on me.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Opinions are opinions, I guess, but I wasn't expecting so many different ones lol. I'm not sure there can be an argument made to say YJ's Dick isn't the best version of Nightwing we've had is at least a decade. I'd personally say the best we've had since NTT at least, and that's because this is a Dick that's shades of NTT, shades or Winnick's Outsiders, shades of Grayson, etc. So many little moments, like Dick basically quoting Bruce from his conversation with the Team in Season 1 to really show how the roles have changed with time, or his relationship with Will, or the absolute confidence older heroes like Black Lightning have in him, etc. I'm not sure how anyone could look at this season negatively, I mean unless you're a Wonder family fan (in which case, yeah, Diana and Cassie have never really gotten good screentime or focus, Donna even less so, so you'd have a good reason there). 

Damian being so young should be celebrated. The age gap between YJ Bruce and YJ Dick is part of the reason both characters are allowed to develop without stepping on each other's toes the way it is in current comic continuity. Damian have 9 years to go means we won't get all the Robins smushed together like in the New 52, and instead it'll be right around the time Bruce is ready to retire and Dick will be willing to truly take in his own protege and not just sharing responsibility. A 20 year age gap between Dick and Damian would parallel the 20-ish year age gap between Bruce and Dick.

I kinda forget we have Roy haters in here, but Private Security was my favourite episode of Outsiders and maybe my favourite in all of Young Justice. Incredibly light-hearted, sure, but it gave us a lot of character building moments for Dick and used the big twist of Season 1, in that Roy was cloned, to tell a perfect story that happened to parallel the Dick-Roy duo's relationship from Winnick's Outsiders and Bruce and Clark's discussions about Superboy from Season 1. Plus, more Brick which also contrasts with Will's character arc in Season 1. All of that, and it pushed the plot forward still. And Lian is alive and happy. Literally have no idea why you'd complain about this episode unless you just hate fun. 

I don't know about you guys, but it's nice to get good quality Dick. He was vital to the plot of Invasion, and had a lot of cool scenes, but aside from major roles in other media stuff like the Players arc and Legacy, he felt like a supporting character. In Outsiders tho, he's the face of the show now. More so than he was in Season 1 as Robin. It really feels like the show is revolving around him, Brion, Conner, Artemis, and Jeff.

Edit: Badou's last post is super on point. It's exactly why I'm loving this Dick. He feels like the best versions of every Dick.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## nightbird

Here is the question. Why Dicks eyes in YJ3 suddenly most of times drawn as black instead of usual blue?

----------


## nightbird

> I think Tim is supposed to get more focus later in the season. It is tough to juggle so many characters on the show and it makes sense they would want to open the new season after such a long wait with the more established characters. I am still interested in how they deal with characters like him and Steph later in the show. 
> 
> 
> And it is great to see how well Dick as Nightwing is being used in the new YJ season. For so long I've been complaining about specific things in the comics and this YJ version is running with so many ideas I've wanted to see implemented for so long. He is only like 20 in the show but commands so much more respect and confidence that it makes the comic version feel so pathetic or stuck. He isn't anchored in Bludhaven trying to protect it, he is fully immersed in the DCU, he has moved on from the "team" after being old enough to go on his own and is creating new teams with old allies and new allies, he isn't bogged down with some normal job stuff and is doing what he enjoys by being a hero, and they structured a logical reason why he doesn't join the JL. 
> 
> If he wants he could join the JL but he prefers to work on his own outside of it and that decision isn't held against him. The JL are not refusing him from joining or treating him like a child, like in the comics, and he feels like an actual adult despite being younger than he is in the comics. He's been a hero for over a decade on the show by now and is using all his experiences to be the best hero he can be while also enjoying the work involved. It is just very satisfying seeing the character work but also frustrating because the comic version is so far off from this too.


I can see YJ version of Dick (especially from 3rd season) easily being able to hold his own show as a solo hero. He has everything. From personality to mission possibilities and entertaining action sequences. 

Also, I like so far Titans version of Dick too. 

I just hope Dick getting some attention of focus right now will not turn into him disappearing or getting minimal screen time later.

----------


## byrd156

> Here is the question. Why Dick’s eyes in YJ3 suddenly most of times drawn as black instead of usual blue?


It switches between blue and black. I assume it's probably an animation issue since they downgraded the quality but it only seems to happen for close ups.

----------


## nightbird

> It switches between blue and black. I assume it's probably an animation issue since they downgraded the quality but it only seems to happen for close ups.


Rarely. I don’t know about quality issues, but they’re mostly black. And that happens only with Dick. Everyone else have the same eye color in every frame. Dick’s eyes turns blue usually only when he uses his lenses. 
Just with DC’s animation movies also drawing him with black/brown eyes it’s seems strange, that they’re trying to alter his look.

----------


## Pohzee

It could likely be due to animation cuts, but you do have a good point about the contact lenses. It likely changes to indicate that they are in effect, but given that his eyes are naturally blue, one would think that it would change in the opposite directions.

It could be a clue for something. I saw a pretty good observation on Reddit that thus far Dick's partnership and relationship with Barbara is a secret. In that one scene he refers to them as "we" before hastily correcting himself to say "I." The fact that his eyes are not his normal color could signal that he is hiding a part of himself from the others. Irrespective or eye color though, I do think that there is more going on with the Dick/Babs relationship than meets the eye.

----------


## nightbird

> It could likely be due to animation cuts, but you do have a good point about the contact lenses. It likely changes to indicate that they are in effect, but given that his eyes are naturally blue, one would think that it would change in the opposite directions.
> 
> It could be a clue for something. I saw a pretty good observation on Reddit that thus far Dick's partnership and relationship with Barbara is a secret. In that one scene he refers to them as "we" before hastily correcting himself to say "I." The fact that his eyes are not his normal color could signal that he is hiding a part of himself from the others. Irrespective or eye color though, I do think that there is more going on with the Dick/Babs relationship than meets the eye.


In some scenes they change from his regular cobalt blue to light blue when he uses his lenses. If them giving him black eyes their way to distinguish moments when he uses lens, then why draw him with blue eyes before that. I dunno maybe I’m thinking to much about it. But for me it’s just a strange “mistake”.

Yeah, also noticed it, when he didn’t tell Artemis that he is talking with Babs. Probably because her being alive a some sort of secret to everyone except probably Batfamily. 
Also, the fact that in M’gaan’s mind Dick was the only one presented as a kid. Something tells me his generation YJ  team probably feel themselves being alienated from Dick. He even speaks like Bats now.

----------


## oasis1313

> Rarely. I don’t know about quality issues, but they’re mostly black. And that happens only with Dick. Everyone else have the same eye color in every frame. Dick’s eyes turns blue usually only when he uses his lenses. 
> Just with DC’s animation movies also drawing him with black/brown eyes it’s seems strange, that they’re trying to alter his look.


They want to make him look more like what they think is Romani and, as Devin Grayson put it, "a person of color."

----------


## dropkickjake

> They want to make him look more like what they think is Romani and, as Devin Grayson put it, "a person of color."


Highly doubt it. Probably just animation issues.

----------


## nightbird

> They want to make him look more like what they think is Romani and, as Devin Grayson put it, "a person of color."


Huh? Dick is like one of the palest in YJ...

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Dick's eyes have always looked navy blue in Young Justice, that's just how they look in darker lighting. Go watch episodes like Downtime and Performance from Season 1. They're only a brighter blue in close-ups, brighter settings, and in most panels of the tie-in comics. That's just how lighting works lol. Sometimes they even get to a blue-grey in very bright settings, like that picture of Dick holding his Mathlete trophy from Season 1.

----------


## oasis1313

> Huh? Dick is like one of the palest in YJ...


Just her idea to make Dick Grayson more "politically correct" at the time.  It was a very BAD idea, but DC hasn't entirely discarded it.

----------


## yohyoi

Honest opinion... I believe Young Justice is the best animated series DC has done. Yes even better than BtAS. Okay... Don't kill me. BtAS is a masterpiece but it didn't capture what makes DC so amazing. The characters. The relationships. The history. Young Justice does and even goes beyond what JLU covered. People going to point out I'm wrong and that's okay. This is just my opinion on the matter.

----------


## Aahz

> Damian being so young should be celebrated. The age gap between YJ Bruce and YJ Dick is part of the reason both characters are allowed to develop without stepping on each other's toes the way it is in current comic continuity. Damian have 9 years to go means we won't get all the Robins smushed together like in the New 52, and instead it'll be right around the time Bruce is ready to retire and Dick will be willing to truly take in his own protege and not just sharing responsibility. A 20 year age gap between Dick and Damian would parallel the 20-ish year age gap between Bruce and Dick.


I find Dicks age in YJ still kind of wired, for one he is now significantly younger than his team mates, and it causes the same problem with all the Robin (appart from Damain) being very close in age, that we have in the New 52. They covered that problem a little by skipping completely over Jason's time as Robin. But the situation of Dick allready becoming Nightwing in his teens, with Jason as Robin being quite close in age seems wired.
I would have preferred if they had made Dick roughly 2 years older.

----------


## nightbird

> Just her idea to make Dick Grayson more "politically correct" at the time.  It was a very BAD idea, but DC hasn't entirely discarded it.


I know what Devin Grayson did to Dicks heritage, but in YJ he is like the palest out of bunch. What the point to change his eye color lol

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a10/1901/79/7b36649159dc.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Dami. 
http://boaillustration.tumblr.com/po...his-again-meme

----------


## Restingvoice

I was browsing DC's digital store to check out what new books are out and when I saw Nightwing I'm reminded that his series began with "Better Than Batman" and now we're at "The Return of Rick Grayson"

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, also noticed it, when he didnt tell Artemis that he is talking with Babs. Probably because her being alive a some sort of secret to everyone except probably Batfamily. 
> Also, the fact that in Mgaans mind Dick was the only one presented as a kid. Something tells me his generation YJ  team probably feel themselves being alienated from Dick. He even speaks like Bats now.


Maybe it's just me but I kind of wonder if something happened between Bruce and Dick in the time-skip. 

Dick seemed really agitated when Ra's compared him to the "Detective" and he seemed to be trying really hard not to think about what Batman was doing after he left the League. 

I wonder if it has something to do with what happened to Barbara that made her Oracle in this continuity?

----------


## oasis1313

> Maybe it's just me but I kind of wonder if something happened between Bruce and Dick in the time-skip. 
> 
> Dick seemed really agitated when Ra's compared him to the "Detective" and he seemed to be trying really hard not to think about what Batman was doing after he left the League. 
> 
> I wonder if it has something to do with what happened to Barbara that made her Oracle in this continuity?


I think Dick was feeling just like me--sick to death of Ra's pomposity and over-inflated self-image.  No wonder he wasn't very patient with him or Talia; he was like, "Quit bothering me, jerkwads!"

----------


## byrd156

> Honest opinion... I believe Young Justice is the best animated series DC has done. Yes even better than BtAS. Okay... Don't kill me. BtAS is a masterpiece but it didn't capture what makes DC so amazing. The characters. The relationships. The history. Young Justice does and even goes beyond what JLU covered. People going to point out I'm wrong and that's okay. This is just my opinion on the matter.


Young Justice needs at least 2 more seasons before I can see that claim being true.

----------


## byrd156

> Maybe it's just me but I kind of wonder if something happened between Bruce and Dick in the time-skip. 
> 
> Dick seemed really agitated when Ra's compared him to the "Detective" and he seemed to be trying really hard not to think about what Batman was doing after he left the League. 
> 
> I wonder if it has something to do with what happened to Barbara that made her Oracle in this continuity?


There might've been a fallout after what happened to Babs.

----------


## Pohzee

> Young Justice needs at least 2 more seasons before I can see that claim being true.


I think that it may be less "classic" than TAS, but more enjoyable to binge and rewatch. And as a Nightwing fan first and foremost, I greatly prefer Dick's showings in YJ. It wasn't my introduction to the character by in means, but it has cemented him as my favorite character in spite of decades of poor showings in comics.

And its not like BTAS had 5 truly great seasons (or even 4...)

----------


## byrd156

> I think that it may be less "classic" than TAS, but more enjoyable to binge and rewatch. And as a Nightwing fan first and foremost, I greatly prefer Dick's showings in YJ. It wasn't my introduction to the character by in means, but it has cemented him as my favorite character in spite of decades of poor showings in comics.
> 
> And its not like BTAS had 5 truly great seasons (or even 4...)


I thought all 4 seasons and the movies were all top notch.

----------


## Pohzee

> I thought all 4 seasons and the movies were all top notch.


While I still though S4 was still good and perhaps has the greatest impact on my views of the Batfamily, I don't think that it belongs in the same boat as the original. Those were classics. S4 was good, but not classic. Definitely not as good as YJ S1.

----------


## oasis1313

> While I still though S4 was still good and perhaps has the greatest impact on my views of the Batfamily, I don't think that it belongs in the same boat as the original. Those were classics. S4 was good, but not classic. Definitely not as good as YJ S1.


Was it in BTAS that Bruce and Barbara had that affair I've heard about?  Too much drama!

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Honest opinion... I believe Young Justice is the best animated series DC has done. Yes even better than BtAS. Okay... Don't kill me. BtAS is a masterpiece but it didn't capture what makes DC so amazing. The characters. The relationships. The history. Young Justice does and even goes beyond what JLU covered. People going to point out I'm wrong and that's okay. This is just my opinion on the matter.





> I think that it may be less "classic" than TAS, but more enjoyable to binge and rewatch. And as a Nightwing fan first and foremost, I greatly prefer Dick's showings in YJ. It wasn't my introduction to the character by in means, but it has cemented him as my favorite character in spite of decades of poor showings in comics.
> 
> And its not like BTAS had 5 truly great seasons (or even 4...)


I think it's hard to compare both shows because of their different aims and styles. YJ is a heavily plot driven general DCU show that has a core ensemble, but who the leads are and their character development isn't as focused (the time skips contribute to things feeling more plot driven than character driven). Obviously BTAS has the advantage of a single main character and a core supporting cast who float in and out as the plot demands and a stable setting. YJ has a stronger serialized narrative, while BTAS is episodic, and that leads to the latter having plenty of skippable and even outright bad episodes.

But I think BTAS has it all over YJ in terms of style and atmosphere. The animation in YJ is consistently very pretty and well suited for action, but it lacks the moody atmospheric personality of Batman's visuals, which managed to elevate even the crappy episodes. YJ's visuals and character designs can be too clean to the point that they can be kind of generic. And while it's not the place for them, the Batman villains as they appear in YJ are seriously underwhelming compared to the Timm versions. The villains in YJ in general are among the weaker parts of it compared to the comic counterparts. It's very much a show where the strength lies in showcasing the Titan and YJ characters, and to a lesser extent the JL. 

In YJ's favor compared to BTAS and the DCAU in general, what little I've seen of Nightwing (I only watched the first season and a half) absolutely owns TNBA Nightwing. BTAS Dick as Robin is a great representation of him during that period of his life, but they botched the latter parts of his journey. Other characters like Wally, Wonder Woman, Tim and Babs (sans romance with Bruce like she had in Timm's verse) also seem like much better representations of who they are in the comics than they got in the DCAU.

----------


## oasis1313

> I think it's hard to compare both shows because of their different aims and styles. YJ is a heavily plot driven general DCU show that has a core ensemble, but who the leads are and their character development isn't as focused (the time skips contribute to things feeling more plot driven than character driven). Obviously BTAS has the advantage of a single main character and a core supporting cast who float in and out as the plot demands and a stable setting. YJ has a stronger serialized narrative, while BTAS is episodic, and that leads to the latter having plenty of skippable and even outright bad episodes.
> 
> But I think BTAS has it all over YJ in terms of style and atmosphere. The animation in YJ is consistently very pretty and well suited for action, but it lacks the moody atmospheric personality of Batman's visuals, which managed to elevate even the crappy episodes. YJ's visuals and character designs can be too clean to the point that they can be kind of generic. And while it's not the place for them, the Batman villains as they appear in YJ are seriously underwhelming compared to the Timm versions. The villains in YJ in general are among the weaker parts of it compared to the comic counterparts. It's very much a show where the strength lies in showcasing the Titan and YJ characters, and to a lesser extent the JL. 
> 
> In YJ's favor compared to BTAS and the DCAU in general, what little I've seen of Nightwing (I only watched the first season and a half) absolutely owns TNBA Nightwing. BTAS Dick as Robin is a great representation of him during that period of his life, but they botched the latter parts of his journey. Other characters like Wally, Wonder Woman, Tim and Babs (sans romance with Bruce like she had in Timm's verse) also seem like much better representations of who they are in the comics than they got in the DCAU.


I know what YJ, BTAS, and DCAU stand for, but what is TNBA?

----------


## Jackalope89

> I know what YJ, BTAS, and DCAU stand for, but what is TNBA?


The New Batman Adventures.

----------


## oasis1313

> The New Batman Adventures.


I thought it was all BTAS, guess I haven't been paying much attention to the cartoons.  I was kinda following them a bit, then Bruce and Dick started fighting and I zoned out.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I thought it was all BTAS, guess I haven't been paying much attention to the cartoons.  I was kinda following them a bit, then Bruce and Dick started fighting and I zoned out.


Different art direction and brought Dick back as Nightwing. It is, technically, part of BTAS, but it somewhat diverges from the rest.

----------


## oasis1313

> Different art direction and brought Dick back as Nightwing. It is, technically, part of BTAS, but it somewhat diverges from the rest.


Is this the Mulletwing version?

----------


## nightbird

[URL=htt[IMG]https://d.***********/d22/1901/47/fc307237eb02.jpg[/IMG]
http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/182...see-bruce-face

Dick, Bruce, Jason Titans TV version

----------


## CPSparkles

I imagine this is the look Dick would have if he saw Ric



https://twitter.com/0022212t

----------


## CPSparkles

> [URL=htt[IMG]https://d.***********/d22/1901/47/fc307237eb02.jpg[/IMG]
> http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/182...see-bruce-face
> 
> Dick, Bruce, Jason Titans TV version


Awww this is nice. Brood much? 

Dick is rocking that smoulder.

----------


## nightbird

> Awww this is nice. Brood much? 
> 
> Dick is rocking that smoulder.


Batfamily without some brooding is not a Batfamily. But I kind like, that Titans focusing on Dick and his origin, feelings and complicated relationship with Bruce without actually showing him and his face.

----------


## nightbird

http://kurawastaken.tumblr.com/post/...twing-and-draw
[IMG]https://a.***********/a38/1901/85/f38f5dc06b6b.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://b.***********/b31/1901/d0/539c65786028.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Avi

> [URL=htt[IMG]https://d.***********/d22/1901/47/fc307237eb02.jpg[/IMG]
> http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/182...see-bruce-face
> 
> Dick, Bruce, Jason Titans TV version


It's great how different they look even though they wear the same and have similar expressions. Just the hair alone gives them something distinctive.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Has their been any indication of how long this "Ric" storyline is supposed to last?  Dick Grayson is and has been my favorite super hero since I was a kid (which is a lot longer than most on here) and I am ready to drop the book, just wondering how much longer I have to wait to get Dick Grayson back...

----------


## byrd156

> Has their been any indication of how long this "Ric" storyline is supposed to last?  Dick Grayson is and has been my favorite super hero since I was a kid (which is a lot longer than most on here) and I am ready to drop the book, just wondering how much longer I have to wait to get Dick Grayson back...


Too long, my guess was 7 issues but it seems to be a bit longer.

----------


## Pohzee

> Too long, my guess was 7 issues but it seems to be a bit longer.


Instead of having 6-7 issues of this, we will now have to plod along aimlessly for 14 some issues to fill two trades instead of one.

----------


## oasis1313

> Instead of having 6-7 issues of this, we will now have to plod along aimlessly for 14 some issues to fill two trades instead of one.


This would be my guess.  I noticed increased attention on the Copwings' backstories, so I think they're here to stay--at least until the book runs into the ground.

----------


## byrd156

> This would be my guess.  I noticed increased attention on the Copwings' backstories, so I think they're here to stay--at least until the book runs into the ground.


They'll only be around as long as Lobdell is.

----------


## Godlike13

They have already been around too long. How long did We Are Robin last?

----------


## nightbird

Question though what kind of legacy Rick will leave to Dick after himself. And knowing writers there is only two options. Other something too damaging to Dick’s character or nothing at all.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is going to be looked back on in mockery.

----------


## oasis1313

> [URL=htt[IMG]https://d.***********/d22/1901/47/fc307237eb02.jpg[/IMG]
> http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/182...see-bruce-face
> 
> Dick, Bruce, Jason Titans TV version


That's some beautiful fan-art.

----------


## OWL45

> Question though what kind of legacy Rick will leave to Dick after himself. And knowing writers there is only two options. Other something too damaging to Dicks character or nothing at all.


I would have honestly preferred him being made a Talon for the Court of Owls. It would have made for a better and more interesting story. This story line so far has done nothing for the character at all.

----------


## nightbird

> I would have honestly preferred him being made a Talon for the Court of Owls. It would have made for a better and more interesting story. This story line so far has done nothing for the character at all.


Not sure if I agree. Talons usually  pretty dead and they kill and they’re inherently broken and under control all the time.

----------


## OWL45

> Not sure if I agree. Talons usually  pretty dead and they kill and they’re inherently broken and under control all the time.


We all know it wouldn’t last but would tie into his past back story with the Grayson’s and his family lineage to be explored more. This storyline offers nothing so far.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Ric is going to be looked back on in mockery.


If it’s looked back, I feel it’s going to be a “we don’t talk about it” like Flash fans did with Bart Allen’s Flash Run.

----------


## oasis1313

> I would have honestly preferred him being made a Talon for the Court of Owls. It would have made for a better and more interesting story. This story line so far has done nothing for the character at all.


No way.  They're kinda undead nasty things, and they get starved and tortured before they become Talons.  Don't want Dick suffering any more than he already is.

----------


## Restingvoice

> They have already been around too long. How long did We Are Robin last?


The standard. A year.

----------


## byrd156

> Ric is going to be looked back on in mockery.


It's been mocked since it's inception. lol  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> They have already been around too long. How long did We Are Robin last?


Felt like twenty years.  The Nightwingies have already been around about four decades, or maybe it just feels like it.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

-Batman #75 (July)
-the end of Doomsday Clock (keeps getting delayed, so let's be safe and say July-August)
-the end of Heroes in Crisis (May)
-the Bendis Leviathan event (???)
-and Snyder's next summer event (end of summer into fall, Snyder said, so August-September? #25 is the start of a new arc and comes out in June, so another 6 issue arc would mean September?)
All kinda points to Ric sticking around for a while imo. Chances are they're going to want to keep the wheels spinning, Lobdell or otherwise, and wait until September or October for a relaunch or a new direction (as new as getting your memories back would be). I definitely expect that to happen to plenty of other books at that point, since those are all the bigger events happening around the DCU and they all offer an opportunity to launch new books and stories. 


And the conversation's kinda passed, but I think YJ is actually worth my time as a Dick Grayson fan. I can't say the same for TNBA. BTAS on the other hand, sure, but I'm a lot more happy watching YJ. There are a couple episodes of BTAS that every Dick fan needs to watch, anyways. YJ still isn't really that solo Nightwing series that we want to really focus on our boy, but it's hell of a lot better than TNBA which is a huge reason why most Batman and DC writers/staff view Dick as a lesser character to Batman. So ultimately, I don't care which is the better show. I just know which one is more exciting to watch as a fan.

----------


## oasis1313

> Batman #75, the end of Doomsday Clock, the end of Heroes in Crisis, the Bendis Leviathan event, and Snyder's next summer event, kinda all points to Ric sticking around for a while imo. Chances are they're going to want to keep the wheels spinning, Lobdell or otherwise, and wait until September for a relaunch or a new direction (as new as getting your memories back would be). I definitely expect that to happen to plenty of other books at that point, since those are all the bigger events happening around the DCU and they all offer an opportunity to launch new books and stories. 
> 
> And the conversation's kinda passed, but I think YJ is actually worth my time as a Dick Grayson fan. I can't say the same for TNBA. BTAS on the other hand, sure, but I'm a lot more happy watching YJ. There are a couple episodes of BTAS that every Dick fan needs to watch, anyways. YJ still isn't really that solo Nightwing series that we want to really focus on our boy, but it's hell of a lot better than TNBA which is a huge reason why most Batman and DC writers/staff view Dick as a lesser character to Batman. So ultimately, I don't care which is the better show. I just know which one is more exciting to watch as a fan.


Which episodes of BTAS would worthwhile for Dick fans?  I think the Nightwingies are hanging around until Didio can justify canceling the book.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Started YJ & Titans, both are good showings for Dick/Robin/Nightwing. Ric has pushed me away from Nightwing Comics for the foreseeable future because it the triumphant return of Nightwing is done in some crossover that once again make the story revolve around Batman I will not waste my time with a character that is disregarded by DC as having no story outside of Batman. YJ is my favorite since I haven’t finished Titans.

----------


## byrd156

> Which episodes of BTAS would worthwhile for Dick fans?  I think the Nightwingies are hanging around until Didio can justify canceling the book.


Robin's Reckoning part 1 & 2 is my all-time favorite version of Dick's origin.

Don't forget Christmas with the Joker and If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?. Also Fear of Victory is damn good. There are more but these are probably my favorites.

----------


## Godlike13

BTAS served as my introduction to everything Batman, including Nightwing. While YJ there is more for Nightwing fans. That doesn’t necessarily mean it a better show though. Doesn’t mean I’m saying YJ isn’t a better show, or even that it is.

----------


## oasis1313

> Robin's Reckoning part 1 & 2 is my all-time favorite version of Dick's origin.
> 
> Don't forget Christmas with the Joker and If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?. Also Fear of Victory is damn good. There are more but these are probably my favorites.


I have them all on DVD, but haven't had a lot of time for watching--as usual.  Thanks for the info--I'll look them up.  A couple of hours ago, I went to a comics reviews site called "Weird Science" and the guy writing the reviews really likes "the current direction."

----------


## Restingvoice

> -Batman #75 (July)
> -the end of Doomsday Clock (keeps getting delayed, so let's be safe and say July-August)
> -the end of Heroes in Crisis (May)
> -the Bendis Leviathan event (???)
> -and Snyder's next summer event (end of summer into fall, Snyder said, so August-September? #25 is the start of a new arc and comes out in June, so another 6 issue arc would mean September?)
> All kinda points to Ric sticking around for a while imo. Chances are they're going to want to keep the wheels spinning, Lobdell or otherwise, and wait until September or October for a relaunch or a new direction (as new as getting your memories back would be).


Eh. Saves money.

----------


## Badou

> -Batman #75 (July)
> -the end of Doomsday Clock (keeps getting delayed, so let's be safe and say July-August)
> -the end of Heroes in Crisis (May)
> -the Bendis Leviathan event (???)
> -and Snyder's next summer event (end of summer into fall, Snyder said, so August-September? #25 is the start of a new arc and comes out in June, so another 6 issue arc would mean September?)
> All kinda points to Ric sticking around for a while imo. Chances are they're going to want to keep the wheels spinning, Lobdell or otherwise, and wait until September or October for a relaunch or a new direction (as new as getting your memories back would be). I definitely expect that to happen to plenty of other books at that point, since those are all the bigger events happening around the DCU and they all offer an opportunity to launch new books and stories.


Whatever King's Summer Batman plans are around #75 will probably involve Dick. Will be some event probably. So I can see him returning before or around then, but I am very nervous about him using the character given how poorly he has handled him in his Batman run outside the 1 issue where he interacted with Damian. It has been bad. It will probably be more of King throwing him and others under the bus to push Bruce's story forward. So I have very low expectations for whatever it ends up being. 

I don't think Dick will have any role in Doomsday Clock and I'd be surprised if the book really changed anything for the character. Dick is still very irrelevant in the wider DCU and I don't see what would happen in it that would change anything for Dick. Dick's history is a mess but he isn't really "missing" anything now. Titans and Bludhaven are already back, for better or worse. 

I personally think Heroes in Crisis is a big reason for the Ric story and isolating Dick in the first place, but I won't get into that again. So I think it is very likely that the Ric story will wrap up right as HiC is wrapping up. This is where I'd place my bet if I had to make one. Maybe it will take until King's Batman event to relaunch a lot of the Batman books, but I think Ric will run its course right as HiC is finishing. 

As for Snyder's event I don't think there are any plans for Dick in it. Since Dick is irrelevant in the DCU still and outside a cameo he will probably do nothing just like Metal. 

Bendis Leviathan event (which I hate that Bendis is taking control of Morrison's stuff) will probably be the same as Doomsday Clock. I don't see Dick being involved in it at all or have any role to play. It is annoying that this should have been Dick's story with what the Spyral and Spy Wars stuff could have expanded into, but hey, at least Dick is back in Bludhaven wearing blue again...

So if I had to bet I think that Ric will end right around when HiC ends and it would be in time for King's Summer Batman event and Dick will probably be used in that. Then after that they will probably decide to relaunch a lot of the Batman books. So I think Lobdell will be writing it for several more months unless he can pawn off the book to someone else to ride it out until they relaunch it. 




> I find Dicks age in YJ still kind of wired, for one he is now significantly younger than his team mates, and it causes the same problem with all the Robin (appart from Damain) being very close in age, that we have in the New 52. They covered that problem a little by skipping completely over Jason's time as Robin. But the situation of Dick allready becoming Nightwing in his teens, with Jason as Robin being quite close in age seems wired.
> I would have preferred if they had made Dick roughly 2 years older.


I think they got around that some by having Dick start his career as Robin at such a young age. I think on the show he started at 8 which was I think the original age in the comics. So while some of the ages are really compressed together Dick feels a lot older than he is on the show because he has been active for so long. Instead of the comics now where he started at around 16 or so.

----------


## byrd156

> Whatever King's Summer Batman plans are around #75 will probably involve Dick. Will be some event probably. So I can see him returning before or around then, but I am very nervous about him using the character given how poorly he has handled him in his Batman run outside the 1 issue where he interacted with Damian. It has been bad. It will probably be more of King throwing him and others under the bus to push Bruce's story forward. So I have very low expectations for whatever it ends up being. 
> 
> I don't think Dick will have any role in Doomsday Clock and I'd be surprised if the book really changed anything for the character. Dick is still very irrelevant in the wider DCU and I don't see what would happen in it that would change anything for Dick. Dick's history is a mess but he isn't really "missing" anything now. Titans and Bludhaven are already back, for better or worse. 
> 
> I personally think Heroes in Crisis is a big reason for the Ric story and isolating Dick in the first place, but I won't get into that again. So I think it is very likely that the Ric story will wrap up right as HiC is wrapping up. This is where I'd place my bet if I had to make one. Maybe it will take until King's Batman event to relaunch a lot of the Batman books, but I think Ric will run its course right as HiC is finishing. 
> 
> As for Snyder's event I don't think there are any plans for Dick in it. Since Dick is irrelevant in the DCU still and outside a cameo he will probably do nothing just like Metal. 
> 
> Bendis Leviathan event (which I hate that Bendis is taking control of Morrison's stuff) will probably be the same as Doomsday Clock. I don't see Dick being involved in it at all or have any role to play. It is annoying that this should have been Dick's story with what the Spyral and Spy Wars stuff could have expanded into, but hey, at least Dick is back in Bludhaven wearing blue again...
> ...


Yeah in YJ season 1 Dick is 13 (he became Robin at 9 in this universe) but has been Robin for 5 years. He became Nightwing at 19 which is probably my ideal age for him becoming Nightwing.

----------


## Pohzee

I was under the impression that he was 19 during Season 2, in which case he most certainly did not become Nightwing that year since Batman had already blown through a Robin.

----------


## byrd156

> I was under the impression that he was 19 during Season 2, in which case he most certainly did not become Nightwing that year since Batman had already blown through a Robin.


I misread the wiki, Dick in this universe would be between 15-18 when he became Nightwing. Most likely 18 to give Jason more time as Robin, no definitive answer has been given for when Dick became Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

> Whatever King's Summer Batman plans are around #75 will probably involve Dick. Will be some event probably. So I can see him returning before or around then, but I am very nervous about him using the character given how poorly he has handled him in his Batman run outside the 1 issue where he interacted with Damian. It has been bad. It will probably be more of King throwing him and others under the bus to push Bruce's story forward. So I have very low expectations for whatever it ends up being. 
> 
> I don't think Dick will have any role in Doomsday Clock and I'd be surprised if the book really changed anything for the character. Dick is still very irrelevant in the wider DCU and I don't see what would happen in it that would change anything for Dick. Dick's history is a mess but he isn't really "missing" anything now. Titans and Bludhaven are already back, for better or worse. 
> 
> I personally think Heroes in Crisis is a big reason for the Ric story and isolating Dick in the first place, but I won't get into that again. So I think it is very likely that the Ric story will wrap up right as HiC is wrapping up. This is where I'd place my bet if I had to make one. Maybe it will take until King's Batman event to relaunch a lot of the Batman books, but I think Ric will run its course right as HiC is finishing. 
> 
> As for Snyder's event I don't think there are any plans for Dick in it. Since Dick is irrelevant in the DCU still and outside a cameo he will probably do nothing just like Metal. 
> 
> Bendis Leviathan event (which I hate that Bendis is taking control of Morrison's stuff) will probably be the same as Doomsday Clock. I don't see Dick being involved in it at all or have any role to play. It is annoying that this should have been Dick's story with what the Spyral and Spy Wars stuff could have expanded into, but hey, at least Dick is back in Bludhaven wearing blue again...
> ...


Ya, I’m at the point where I think Dick needs to get out of the current Bat office. I have no problems with him being a Bat character, and I have no clue whether things would necessarily get better, but given the quality of the work of the current editors on the book and the quality of creator they think the is adequate for the title. The character just needs to get the hell out of there. The professional integrity displayed with this book been heartbreaking. When they obviously could give a crap whether they are actually producing something of even half decent quality to the readers, and are ok with regurgitating rather recent failed concepts, something is wrong. Even the worse producing book don’t see this display of lack of care and disinterest.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick did become Nightwing in the comics at 19 before what would have been his sophomore year at college had he returned. Given that in YJ Dick started high school at 13, it is likely that he became Nightwing at late 17 or early 18. It works better if you squint.

----------


## byrd156

> Dick did become Nightwing in the comics at 19 before what would have been his sophomore year at college had he returned. Given that in YJ Dick started high school at 13, it is likely that he became Nightwing at late 17 or early 18. It works better if you squint.


It works well enough.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, the math is never going to line up properly. Best to ignore it entirely.

As for how long this Ric thing will last, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it stays like this until summer so they can re-launch the book with a lot of Event hype around it. Or, if some members of management have their way, write Dick out completely by making him a sacrifice for the story.

So I'm taking the money I would be spending on the comic/s and spending it on Nightwing merchandise instead. I let DC know that I won't support this sh*t, and I also let WB know that I'm interested in Nightwing and the character can have my money when the company makes it worth my time. Not that either WB or DC are going to notice my few hundred bucks, but it's about all I can do, and all I have time for.

And if Dick does get written off, I'll be skipping whatever book that happens in, and any book connected to it as well. I might actually stop buying all Batman related titles at that point; I like Bruce and Damian and Tim, but Nightwing tops them all in my mind.

I already dropped HiC because of Wally. I'm not collector enough to spend money on sh*t.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, the math is never going to line up properly. Best to ignore it entirely.
> 
> As for how long this Ric thing will last, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it stays like this until summer so they can re-launch the book with a lot of Event hype around it. Or, if some members of management have their way, write Dick out completely by making him a sacrifice for the story.
> 
> So I'm taking the money I would be spending on the comic/s and spending it on Nightwing merchandise instead. I let DC know that I won't support this sh*t, and I also let WB know that I'm interested in Nightwing and the character can have my money when the company makes it worth my time. Not that either WB or DC are going to notice my few hundred bucks, but it's about all I can do, and all I have time for.
> 
> And if Dick does get written off, I'll be skipping whatever book that happens in, and any book connected to it as well. I might actually stop buying all Batman related titles at that point; I like Bruce and Damian and Tim, but Nightwing tops them all in my mind.
> 
> I already dropped HiC because of Wally. I'm not collector enough to spend money on sh*t.


so them wasting all of the momentum of have Dick grayson and Nightwing on Titans and Young Justice
I hate DC SOMTIMES

----------


## Pohzee

> so them wasting all of the momentum of have Dick grayson and Nightwing on Titans and Young Justice
> I hate DC SOMTIMES


No no don't worry! DC will keep Ric around until the end of Titans Season 2 next year when Dick finally becomes Nightwing to captialize on the synergy!

----------


## Badou

> Ya, I’m at the point where I think Dick needs to get out of the current Bat office. I have no problems with him being a Bat character, and I have no clue whether things would necessarily get better, but given the quality of the work of the current editors on the book and the quality of creator they think the is adequate for the title. The character just needs to get the hell out of there. The professional integrity displayed with this book been heartbreaking. When they obviously could give a crap whether they are actually producing something of even half decent quality to the readers, and are ok with regurgitating rather recent failed concepts, something is wrong. Even the worse producing book don’t see this display of lack of care and disinterest.


I really don't know. It isn't like Dick has been treated any better outside of the Batman office given the dreadful Titans book. He's kind of stuck. I can't think of a time where the character has been worse off in terms of the comics since I have been following the character, which sucks given how he is finally finding a place outside comics in other media. Like I can't imagine how things will get much better. So he gets a new writer on his solo or Titans get a new writer, but neither property has any real direction or purpose. Another meandering Bludhaven story or rehash Titans story where he will be jerked around by the main Batman or JL writer probably when it is convenient. Then get tossed aside and ignored since he has zero relevance in bigger stories or the wider DCU. Odds are the new Nightwing writer will leave after an arc or two anyway. 

He just has no one in his corner at DC anymore. A Morrison isn't going to swoop down from the heavens and save the character by controlling his direction to prevent other writers or management from fucking him over. The only one I think that might come to bat for the character would be Tomasi, but even that is unlikely with King mostly controlling the Batman line. It is just rough. Like new writers will make things marginally better at best but the character is in such a bad place now where you need to blow everything up and start with something new, but I don't see DC doing that. Since it would require actual effort and planning. 




> Yeah, the math is never going to line up properly. Best to ignore it entirely.
> 
> As for how long this Ric thing will last, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it stays like this until summer so they can re-launch the book with a lot of Event hype around it. Or, if some members of management have their way, write Dick out completely by making him a sacrifice for the story.
> 
> So I'm taking the money I would be spending on the comic/s and spending it on Nightwing merchandise instead. I let DC know that I won't support this sh*t, and I also let WB know that I'm interested in Nightwing and the character can have my money when the company makes it worth my time. Not that either WB or DC are going to notice my few hundred bucks, but it's about all I can do, and all I have time for.
> 
> And if Dick does get written off, I'll be skipping whatever book that happens in, and any book connected to it as well. I might actually stop buying all Batman related titles at that point; I like Bruce and Damian and Tim, but Nightwing tops them all in my mind.
> 
> I already dropped HiC because of Wally. I'm not collector enough to spend money on sh*t.


I don't think they will write Dick off, but I do struggle to see what they could do with him going forward. So maybe just doing more of the same is equivalent to writing him off in DC's eyes.  

I honestly wish they would have just had KGBeast kill Dick when he shot him in the head, or just kill Dick off in Heroes in Crisis with the other Titans. It would have been better than this lazy and terribly managed Ric story we ended up getting. Sure he would be gone for a year or so but it would be better than seeing this continued degradation of the brand and property for months and months by people and management that don't care.

----------


## Ascended

> I don't think they will write Dick off, but I do struggle to see what they could do with him going forward. So maybe just doing more of the same is equivalent to writing him off in DC's eyes.  
> 
> I honestly wish they would have just had KGBeast kill Dick when he shot him in the head, or just kill Dick off in Heroes in Crisis with the other Titans. It would have been better than this lazy and terribly managed Ric story we ended up getting. Sure he would be gone for a year or so but it would be better than seeing this continued degradation of the brand and property for months and months by people and management that don't care.


I dont think DC is so far gone that they'd write him off either, but I can no longer completely rule it out. Now it just seems unlikely. Unlikely, but possible, which I wouldn't have said a year ago. 

But no, I think Nightwing's profile is too big for getting rid of him. Otherwise Didio likely would've managed it long before this. But just the fact that posters like you are saying you wish DC had killed him might be that DC is winning, getting us to want a mercy killing. Didio's bosses can't be mad at him if he's just giving the fans what they want and the book isn't selling anyway. And I do believe the sales are starting to drop now, arent they?

----------


## nightbird

> We all know it wouldn’t last but would tie into his past back story with the Grayson’s and his family lineage to be explored more. This storyline offers nothing so far.


For me Talon adds nothing. It’s fun AU/Elseworld story to some degree, but not a story to the main universe. Just like Ric it would just mess up Dick at the end. I want simply a good stories to Dick Grayson as Dick Grayson. I’m not asking too much. But current DC management for sure thinks so.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yea you have to be undead to be a Talon, and we already have two undead in the family.

DC's current management will happily put out a series for Nightwing because he brings extra money, but his success wasn't intended so there will be no effort beyond that.

----------


## Godlike13

> I really don't know. It isn't like Dick has been treated any better outside of the Batman office given the dreadful Titans book. He's kind of stuck. I can't think of a time where the character has been worse off in terms of the comics since I have been following the character, which sucks given how he is finally finding a place outside comics in other media. Like I can't imagine how things will get much better. So he gets a new writer on his solo or Titans get a new writer, but neither property has any real direction or purpose. Another meandering Bludhaven story or rehash Titans story where he will be jerked around by the main Batman or JL writer probably when it is convenient. Then get tossed aside and ignored since he has zero relevance in bigger stories or the wider DCU. Odds are the new Nightwing writer will leave after an arc or two anyway. 
> 
> He just has no one in his corner at DC anymore. A Morrison isn't going to swoop down from the heavens and save the character by controlling his direction to prevent other writers or management from fucking him over. The only one I think that might come to bat for the character would be Tomasi, but even that is unlikely with King mostly controlling the Batman line. It is just rough. Like new writers will make things marginally better at best but the character is in such a bad place now where you need to blow everything up and start with something new, but I don't see DC doing that. Since it would require actual effort and planning.


My thinking is get his solo out of the current Bat office, and while under a differ office maybe with being more responsible for the character there would be more incentive for that office to treat not just him and his readers better. Even if he doesn’t necessarily have somone in his corner I have think other offices would be happy to have a book that can hold a bimonthly ship for 50 issues in this market. Like I’m not even looking for some big creator to come in, at this point I’ll take some semblance of somebody giving a shit about what they are producing. Maybe with creators that aren’t making jokes about how they are on the book, and editors who aren’t seemingly actively going out and trying to find the least reputable creators they can, we can get something half decent. It might not be any better, but it can’t be worse the what’s going on under the current Bat office. Dick is dead in the water under his current management, and his readers are looked at as worthless.

----------


## Badou

> I dont think DC is so far gone that they'd write him off either, but I can no longer completely rule it out. Now it just seems unlikely. Unlikely, but possible, which I wouldn't have said a year ago. 
> 
> But no, I think Nightwing's profile is too big for getting rid of him. Otherwise Didio likely would've managed it long before this. But just the fact that posters like you are saying you wish DC had killed him might be that DC is winning, getting us to want a mercy killing. Didio's bosses can't be mad at him if he's just giving the fans what they want and the book isn't selling anyway. And I do believe the sales are starting to drop now, arent they?


I think the sales are about what they were before Batman #55. Mid 20Ks but I think the digital sales are up some because it is still riding off being bumped up from Batman #55 too. Although the digital sales are still far off what they used to be under the Grayson and early Rebirth Nightwing runs where it was a consistent top 10 or better on comixology the week it released. 




> My thinking is get his solo out of the current Bat office, and while under a differ office maybe with being more responsible for the character there would be more incentive for that office to treat not just him and his readers better. Even if he doesnt necessarily have somone in his corner I have think other offices would be happy to have a book that can hold a bimonthly ship for 50 issues in this market. Like Im not even looking for some big creator to come in, at this point Ill take some semblance of somebody giving a shit about what they are producing. Maybe with creators that arent making jokes about how they are on the book, and editors who arent seemingly actively going out and trying to find the least reputable creators they can, we can get something half decent. It might not be any better, but it cant be worse the whats going on under the current Bat office. Dick is dead in the water under his current management, and his readers are looked at as worthless.


I just don't know. He had been treated like trash in the JL/Titans office for longer than this awful stretch in the Batman office, and Bendis is running the Superman office and already put Tim in Metropolis and I don't think Bendis has any interest in Dick's character nor do I trust him as a writer. So while the Batman office is bad I don't have any confidence the other offices will be much better. It is one of the reasons I am at a loss with what to do with him. 

Maybe if the JL office had full control over his character it would be marginally better, but is "marginally better" what we should be hoping for? After months and months of suffering through this Ric Grayson story we come out the other side to just another menial Nightwing story or Titans story? Is the Ric story supposed to make me appreciate the normal Nightwing fare we get? It doesn't. It makes me even more annoyed. DC churns out such a low effort story like this Ric arc for months and I'm supposed to be thankful about a new standard Nightwing arc? Fuck that. I can't do it. I can't sit through another story of some Gotham villain coming to Bludhaven for an arc, Dick getting some pointless job again, spending more pages on useless cop characters, seeing Blockbuster's face again, another fucking Titan having issues with their stupid powers, or whatever else. I might sounds selfish but it just isn't worth it. 

It is why I want them to blow it all up. Do something completely different if management doesn't give a shit about the character. Tear it all down and do something else to get the taste of the Ric story out of my memory. Shoot him off into space and have him become a Lantern, have him join the Suicide Squad if that is were Wally is going to end up from the rumors, put him in some far away country again like in Grayson, or turn him into a dinosaur and send him back hundreds of millions of years and write about that, lol. Just not more of the same.

----------


## Godlike13

The current office shot him in the head, had him try to burn Nightwing, only to trap him even further in Bludhaven. There is no coming out of this Ric story better, they do not want to put in any real work into the character and that laziness blew up in their face. Ric isn’t leading to shit. They didn’t even know what Ric was gonna be and bullshitted their way into this trash. 
Right now the Bat office are struggling to even manage basic aspects and are depending on out of touch fill in writers, recycled recently failed ideas, and seemingly any work shop artist they can find just to get an issue to print. They are so in a hole with this book that they can’t even afford to care about the quality of what they are actually producing to the readers. They can’t do new things when they can’t even manage fundamental things. Any office can do better then this. Even if its just managing something basic like finding a semi-respectable writer or even at least a decent artist that can complete a full issue. Fundamental things they afford even they’re worst producing books and characters would be an improvement over the current situation.

----------


## Badou

> The current office shot him in the head, had him try to burn Nightwing, only to trap him even further in Bludhaven. There is no coming out of this Ric story better, they do not want to put in any real work into the character and that laziness blew up in their face. Ric isnt leading to shit. They didnt even know what Ric was gonna be and bullshitted their way into this trash. 
> Right now the Bat office are struggling to even manage basic aspects and are depending on out of touch fill in writers, recycled recently failed ideas, and seemingly any work shop artist they can find just to get an issue to print. They are so in a hole with this book that they cant even afford to care about the quality of what they are actually producing to the readers. They cant do new things when they cant even manage fundamental things. Any office can do better then this. Even if its just managing something basic like findind a semi-respectable writer or even at least a decent artist that can complete a full issue. Fundamental things they afford even theyre worst producing books and characters would be an improvement over the current situation.


I agree and can't really argue against any of that. Him staying in the office that shot him in the head, didn't care or put any effort into the outcome, and has been managed incomprehensibly bad throughout is inexcusable. I just don't think it will be much better in the other offices, given I don't think he has been used well once in the JL/Titans office since the reboot, but I guess if you want them to start with just basic management things it might be better there. I'd never say no to it as I want as much change as possible going forward and that might have better odds of happening outside of the office that gave us Ric Grayson.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d05/1901/24/3190ac102ac7.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://d.***********/d16/1901/2e/7471709d7c95.jpg[/IMG]

YJ Dick & Jason
https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/18...n-todd-fan-art

----------


## Ascended

> My thinking is get his solo out of the current Bat office, and while under a differ office maybe with being more responsible for the character there would be more incentive for that office to treat not just him and his readers better. .


That's been my thought as well. The Titans office seems as lost as Nightwing, but I think the Superman office could, possibly, make for a good home. It doesn't even have to come down to Bendis; he doesn't have to be the writer just because he's writing Clark right now. 

If nothing else, perhaps the Super office would see some benefit in taking over a Bat-related character and treat Nightwing with some respect in the hopes of pulling in some Bat readers. 

At this point, I'd be willing to try almost anything. 




> I think the sales are about what they were before Batman #55. Mid 20Ks but I think the digital sales are up some because it is still riding off being bumped up from Batman #55 too. Although the digital sales are still far off what they used to be under the Grayson and early Rebirth Nightwing runs where it was a consistent top 10 or better on comixology the week it released.


Wow. Man, we really just dont give up, do we? Even when we should.....

----------


## oasis1313

DC refuses to accept submissions from new young writers when very clearly its old stable of writers has no clue.  It seems that once a writer is "established", they can go from gig to gig while bearing no responsibility for wrecking the book before it.  Isn't there anybody else in Scott Snyder's creative writing class who wants a tenured career with no accountability?

----------


## byrd156

> That's been my thought as well. The Titans office seems as lost as Nightwing, but I think the Superman office could, possibly, make for a good home. It doesn't even have to come down to Bendis; he doesn't have to be the writer just because he's writing Clark right now. 
> 
> If nothing else, perhaps the Super office would see some benefit in taking over a Bat-related character and treat Nightwing with some respect in the hopes of pulling in some Bat readers. 
> 
> At this point, I'd be willing to try almost anything. 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Man, we really just dont give up, do we? Even when we should.....


Trying something would be refreshing.

----------


## oasis1313

> Trying something would be refreshing.


Suggestions?  Ten characters.

----------


## byrd156

> Suggestions?  Ten characters.


That's what the pitch thread is for.

----------


## oasis1313

> That's what the pitch thread is for.


There are some fantastic ideas there, and the things you could do with (and FOR) the character are endless.  What can we DO on a real level?  DC doesn't read mail or solicit opinions.  All I can think of is to refrain from purchasing the book--which is breaking my heart--is there something concrete we can actively do for Dick's sake?

----------


## byrd156

> There are some fantastic ideas there, and the things you could do with (and FOR) the character are endless.  What can we DO on a real level?  DC doesn't read mail or solicit opinions.  All I can think of is to refrain from purchasing the book--which is breaking my heart--is there something concrete we can actively do for Dick's sake?


Money is the only thing that makes a difference.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I think Kyle Higgins did a good job with Nightwing. If they let up run up to 50 like he planned to, he would've had an even better Nightwing run. That's the run that made me a NW fan. The Dixon stuff and everything before N52 didn't catch my eye as much as N52 NW and Grayson did

----------


## oasis1313

> I think Kyle Higgins did a good job with Nightwing. If they let up run up to 50 like he planned to, he would've had an even better Nightwing run. That's the run that made me a NW fan. The Dixon stuff and everything before N52 didn't catch my eye as much as N52 NW and Grayson did


Kyle is a great guy and he really loved Nightwing.  I wish he could/would come back.

----------


## Godlike13

I would rather Higgins and McCarthy take over Titans. I’m just not big on past writers coming back.

----------


## Avi

Higgins had his chance imo and I wouldn't wish for him to write with the current editorial climate being so absymal.
He could barely get his ideas through during the N52, now it would only go worse.
Only reason I would want previous writers back is, that they might use the side-characters they introduced. I would have liked to see more of Jen and Marionette.

----------


## nightbird

Too bad writers with power to do whatever they want and overrule any interventions from management usually never interested in doing something with Batfamily members and just simply prefer to use only Bats.

----------


## Pohzee

Higgins had his second shot with New Order. It was alright.

----------


## Ascended

> Higgins had his second shot with New Order. It was alright.


I really enjoyed New Order. It was an interesting look at Dick, and I like that it put him in such a weird, difficult, and off-the-beaten-path situation. I liked that he struggled with his past choices, despite thinking he had done what needed to be. I enjoy stories where Dick's idealism and optimism are pushed up against morally gray problems that don't have a clear-cut solution. Dick's willing to do what he has to but he doesn't always like it, and I think that's a fun place to put him sometimes.

I think Higgins would be fine as writer again, if he had a good editor who could help him develop his story rather than the editorial we have now. I'd rather a fresh writer with fresh ideas but Higgins did well enough I wouldn't mind his return. 

Compared to our current situation, Higgins would be like getting Shakespear.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d07/1901/01/cb8288335453.jpg[/IMG]

From YJ3.

----------


## byrd156

> Higgins had his second shot with New Order. It was alright.


I wouldn't really count an Elseword as a second shot. But I do agree that it was alright.

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d07/1901/01/cb8288335453.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> From YJ3.


I really wish that Dick's costume was a little more flashy. I know he's always been more covert in this universe but come on, let that performer side shine.

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d07/1901/01/cb8288335453.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> From YJ3.


It was really weird watching someone from the Batfamily use a gun.

I know he wasn't shooting live rounds, but still.

----------


## byrd156

> It was really weird watching someone from the Batfamily use a gun.
> 
> I know he wasn't shooting live rounds, but still.

----------


## Frontier

> 


I remember this comic  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Jackalope89

> *It was really weird watching someone from the Batfamily use a gun.*
> 
> I know he wasn't shooting live rounds, but still.


Forget about Jason?

----------


## Frontier

> Forget about Jason?


Well, I mean, there's a reason it's only him  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Darkcrusade25

When this Ric run ends I hope the next writer decides to involve Dick’s friends on the superhero side like Donna, Garth, Starfire, Tim, RH, Huntress.

I would include Barbera but I feel like that’s a given because even post Flashpoint she’s shown in his solo runs

I’m so used to NW not having finger stripes anymore and now when I see them they feel like an unnecessary addition to the suit.

----------


## byrd156

> Forget about Jason?


Jason shouldn't be considered a member of the family.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Mataza

> Jason shouldn't be considered a member of the family.


^^^^^  :Stick Out Tongue:  ^^^^^

----------


## Pohzee

> ^^^^^  ^^^^^


^^^^^  :Cool:  ^^^^^

----------


## nightbird

> I really wish that Dick's costume was a little more flashy. I know he's always been more covert in this universe but come on, let that performer side shine.


[IMG]https://a.***********/a27/1901/00/dc43bbb11ba2.jpg[/IMG]
Lol

Well they all less flashy in that universe)

----------


## TheCape

> Well, I mean, there's a reason it's only him .


To be honest Bruce has always taugth that to the Robins, in Jason Post-Crisis origin you see Bruce teaching him the same thing.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Jason shouldn't be considered a member of the family.

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason shouldn't be considered a member of the family.


Jason has more right to be called a member of the family than Tim and even Dick do:   He was officially adopted in current canon; Dick and Tim aren't.

----------


## dropkickjake

Nah... I really think Jason works best as an antihero that is not on good terms with the Batfamily in general and Dick in particular.

----------


## byrd156

> 


I'm not attacking Jason, if anything getting him away from the family is a push he needs. 

Why would Bruce let a Jason that has attempted to kill the family? Why would he let him run around and kill people then have tea in the Batcave with everyone else?

It makes no sense for either side to be or want to be around each other. Jason was a part of the family when he was Robin but he died. He came back as a crazy person who twisted Batman's mission. Sure he mellowed out over time but fundamentally Jason believes in the exact opposite of Bruce. That the only way to stop crime is to kill it. It makes Bruce look like a hypocrite for accepting Jason and it makes Jason look weak for needing Bruce and everyone else after he felt betrayed for Bruce not killing the Joker. Keeping Jason around the family weakens him as a character.

----------


## byrd156

> Jason has more right to be called a member of the family than Tim and even Dick do:   He was officially adopted in current canon; Dick and Tim aren't.


The current canon doesn't mean s*** and we all know it. DC doesn't even know what is canon anymore.

I'm not attacking Jason, I like him when he is at odds with Batman. That's where the natural drama from their dynamic comes from. Two people who love each other but their morals/values keep them apart. Bruce can't comprise when it comes to his crusade that's at the core of Bruce's character.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm not attacking Jason, if anything getting him away from the family is a push he needs. 
> 
> Why would Bruce let a Jason that has attempted to kill the family? Why would he let him run around and kill people then have tea in the Batcave with everyone else?
> 
> It makes no sense for either side to be or want to be around each other. Jason was a part of the family when he was Robin but he died. He came back as a crazy person who twisted Batman's mission. Sure he mellowed out over time but fundamentally Jason believes in the exact opposite of Bruce. That the only way to stop crime is to kill it. It makes Bruce look like a hypocrite for accepting Jason and it makes Jason look weak for needing Bruce and everyone else after he felt betrayed for Bruce not killing the Joker. Keeping Jason around the family weakens him as a character.


You're thinking of pre-New52. Since then, the only thing from before that kept, was Under the Red Hood. He's been shown to have, at the very least, cordial relationships with the rest of the Bats. Here, he's worked with everyone from Damian on up to Dick and Bruce. 

Most things from the New52 I don't care for. But it finally made Jason into something else than a mentally unstable psychopath.

----------


## dropkickjake

> You're thinking of pre-New52. Since then, the only thing from before that kept, was Under the Red Hood. He's been shown to have, at the very least, cordial relationships with the rest of the Bats. Here, he's worked with everyone from Damian on up to Dick and Bruce. 
> 
> Most things from the New52 I don't care for. But it finally made Jason into something else than a mentally unstable psychopath.


I like the mental stability, I just wish it didnt include Jason as a member of the nuclear family. I think he works better outside.

----------


## byrd156

> You're thinking of pre-New52. Since then, the only thing from before that kept, was Under the Red Hood. He's been shown to have, at the very least, cordial relationships with the rest of the Bats. Here, he's worked with everyone from Damian on up to Dick and Bruce. 
> 
> Most things from the New52 I don't care for. But it finally made Jason into something else than a mentally unstable psychopath.


DC hasn't taken the time to fill in this new history so we have to fill it in with what we can. Under the Red Hood is still canon, that alone should keep the two at odds. If DC wants to have them be close then make a story out of it. Not just say it is because "we were too lazy to come up with a reason why these characters are at a place that wasn't earned."

Even if Under the Red Hood is the only thing kept it still makes sense. Besides avoiding most of a character's history and pretending it didn't happen the way it did is stupid. I personally like evil villain Jason but I'm not advocating for that right now. What I want is character development that is earned and makes sense. Keeping everything off screen and labeled as not canon or it happened just different isn't an acceptable answer.

----------


## K7P5V

> Which episodes of BTAS would worthwhile for Dick fans?  I think the Nightwingies are hanging around until Didio can justify canceling the book.





> Robin's Reckoning part 1 & 2 is my all-time favorite version of Dick's origin.
> 
> Don't forget Christmas with the Joker and If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?. Also Fear of Victory is damn good. There are more but these are probably my favorites.


My personal favorite is _Batgirl Returns_.

----------


## K7P5V

> Which episodes of BTAS would worthwhile for Dick fans?  I think the Nightwingies are hanging around until Didio can justify canceling the book.





> Robin's Reckoning part 1 & 2 is my all-time favorite version of Dick's origin.
> 
> Don't forget Christmas with the Joker and If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?. Also Fear of Victory is damn good. There are more but these are probably my favorites.





> 





> I remember this comic .


Me too. All-time favorite Dick Grayson artist: Scott McDaniel.

----------


## byrd156

> My personal favorite is _Batgirl Returns_.


All the Batgirl episodes are great.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Another set of YJ episodes, so that's another set of episodes that features Dick being a good mentor. Dick, Conner, and Artemis are really a power trio and I love their interactions. I'd go into more, but I'm actually kinda tired so I'll save it for later. Next week, we get the last 4 episodes of this half of Outsiders...

And about Jason, since that popped up in here, some of you guys are really focused on pre-Flashpoint Jason, still. Jason barely did any of the things he did in the old timeline as the Red Hood, most of that was replaced with whatever ninja nonsense Lobdell wrote in. Because of the short timeline (5 or 10 years, it's still very short for Jason's resurrection), the only stuff that really happened was a version of Under the Red Hood and maybe a version of Battle for the Cowl, none of the stuff during or after that happened. And then it's just whatever New 52 and Rebirth stuff that happens, happens. I remember there was a brief period when people were speculating if the New 52 versions of UtRH and BftC were one and the same, and essentially Jason really only went up against Dick before turning anti-hero. He really hated Dick at the start of the New 52, but was largely fine with everyone else, including Bruce. Ultimately tho, it doesn't matter much, but what does matter is that none of the reasons for Jason not really being a hero count as much. Besides the current Outlaw storyline, Jason's whole-heartedly stuck to Bruce's rules until the Penguin thing. Even when Bruce was gone and Dick was calling the shots for Robin War and BRE, he still followed them, as well as Dick's orders. If Jason doesn't rejoin the family after this current arc, then that makes sense. He broke the rules while being sane, after all. But beforehand, he was reeled in pretty quickly, and you can argue it was the family itself that saved him so I don't get the idea that he doesn't belong.

----------


## Badou

Was a bit bored so I compiled some things I thought were interesting and regards to the management behind the current arc. 

https://batman-news.com/2019/01/09/nightwing-56-review/

Some interesting comments from Fabian in the comments section of this review for #56. He apparently didn't even write the bits of dialogue the reviewer had problems with and has stated he didn't even bother comparing his delivered script to the final version for this issue despite it it having his name in the credits for it. This was his last issue so he probably didn't care anymore (add him to the list of creators that left after one arc now), and it isn't like anyone involved in this book has cared for a while anyway, but it is another example of the zero effort and bad management involved in this title. Here is a tweet where he says DC asked him to script #57-58 but he declined which lead to the horrible Esquivel situation. 

This made me want to go back and reread the old interview Fabian and Lobdell did on newsarama at the start of the Ric Grayson story. https://www.newsarama.com/42366-new-...direction.html

Reading it again it is funny. They are trying very hard to sell a story that neither really believe in. The only bit that had any real truth in it was when Lobdell got super defensive about the Jason comments, but interviews like this feels very fake to me. It just feels like such bullshit. Like they know this story and situation is a mess but can't say anything other than try and sell it as such a great idea. It also reminded me of a Bleedingcool article that Fabian commented on in the comments section as well where he again tried to sell the story and bring up how Dick is his favorite comic character ever and that he wouldn't script it if he didn't believe in it, but a quick look at his social media he didn't bother promoting the book he was scripting at all during his time on it. 

It is just very telling that Fabian says Dick is his all time favorite character (not saying Dick isn't), but after one arc that his friend Lobdell got him to script for him (Lobdell was probably too busy or not interested in writing the book just himself), DC asks Fabian to script more issues and he declines. Kind of admitting this has been a failure. This lead to DC having to find someone else to script for Lobdell (wonder who they got after Esquivel was fried), but it has to have been a mess if he bolted so fast from writing his apparent all time favorite character in just one arc.

----------


## Godlike13

This has become a crap draw for everyone involved. Honestly at this point I feel DC is just remaining committed to it because the people responsible for it don’t want to show blood or admit what a poor job they have done trying to put it together. I can understand a misfire but the way they have doubled down on desperate and poor decisions is inexcusable. This shit show needs to just end.

----------


## Drako

> Jason has more right to be called a member of the family than Tim and even Dick do:   He was officially adopted in current canon; Dick and Tim aren't.

----------


## yohyoi

> Jason shouldn't be considered a member of the family.


 :Smile:  ...  :Smile:  ......

----------


## Frontier

> Another set of YJ episodes, so that's another set of episodes that features Dick being a good mentor. Dick, Conner, and Artemis are really a power trio and I love their interactions. I'd go into more, but I'm actually kinda tired so I'll save it for later. Next week, we get the last 4 episodes of this half of Outsiders...


I found it hilarious that they suggested the origin of the Nightwing name came from a rock band and Dick adamantly denying it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I think think NW would've been better off without Bludhaven. Just thinking about bludhaven gives that feeling of repeating storylines. Whatever happens, this book is probably going to need a new #1 to distance itself from all this garbage.

----------


## Godlike13

Either they’ll relaunch it, or they’ll blame fans for Ric to claim supports no longer there for a solo.

----------


## Ascended

> Either they’ll relaunch it, or they’ll blame fans for Ric to claim supports no longer there for a solo.


And if they cancel it, it'll come back with a relaunch after a little while as well. 

I don't care what Didio likes, this IP is too valuable and consistent to get rid of easily, and Nightwing's brand expectation is enough to make his return a matter of when, not if.

I hope so, anyway. F*ck, I hope so.

----------


## Schumiac

DC managed to make me quit reading them long time ago, when between the train-wreck that was Devin Grayson's run and Didiot's attempts at killing him off at Infinite Crisis, I just had enough at some point... I was intrigued with what Morrison had to do with Dick as Batman, but not enough to make me go back to DC except for a quick glance here and there... Years later, probably because of Titans, I found myself willing to take another glance at the comics and THIS Ric non-sense is what greets me? Oh my, oh my... I will forever celebrate the day when DC is saved from Didiot...

As for this nonsense...

1) I fail to see how control-freak Bruce EVER let his amnesiac "having black outs still" son wander off to Bludhaven without really monitoring him... The idiot was breaking and entering into homes for god's sake. Could easily get his ass shot and end up dead for good. AND he had Scarecrow for threapist. Bruce may not be the best parent ever & he is a bit crazy lately, yes, but still I expect him to be more on top of things rather than let a clearly in need of supervision Dick go off to Bludhaven to do whatever, with occasional visits from Barbara and Alfred to serve as progress reports...

2) Dick is soooo freaked out about the dangerous life he used to lead before all this that he decided to disown Bat-family, turn his back on his past completely to make a clean start and so left Gotham... Ok. What the hell is he doing in Bludhaven then?!?!!?!? That is not a place anyone goes for a "fresh start" and "to be safe". It is his "old city" and it is as criminal infested and dangerous as Gotham. Why not go to somewhere like Metropolis if the idea is a "brand new start away from all this madness"? It is not like he is using his home or anything connected to his old life...

3) Why on earth is he broke? He is still the son of a billoinare AND (even if he is refusing to take any money from Bruce in his attempt to seperate from the guy) last I checked he had considerable money of his own due to Fox investing the insurance money from his parents' deaths well. of course maybe all that changed when I wasn't reading or DC decided to change what is canon for the zillionth time... and if he is not broke, why is he acting like he is broke and not paying his bar tab... 

4) and the "he is back to his circus roots so he is a wanderer who has no stable home or income, drinks a lot, runs  up debts and gambles" thing is such a disgusting stereotype.... Shame on you DC and anyone who thought of this. Dick and his family were NOT vagabonds and if this is suppsoed to be a reference to his "Romani-roots" because "wandering and leeching off people" is what Romani do, then wow, racist much? What 8-year old Dick had was a stable family with stable income (and good work ethics and discpline!), a place he could call home and he did sleep in the same bed everyday. Yes, the circus "toured" but they werent just wandering aimlessly. So "he sleeps in a car now because circus folk dont have homes" thing is driving me insane...

And dont get me even started on the name change. I know Dick woke up with nothing but his 8 years-old's memories but guess his mind also works like one if he is going "I know what I will do, I will change my name, that should make for a great new beginning, right? right?"


I will go watch some Young Justice now for therapy...

----------


## Jackalope89

Since New52, has Dick really been the big brother/mentor role to anyone outside the Bat Family anymore? Prior, being the leader of the Titans as a whole, he not only looked after Damian, but also others like Kara when they needed him.

Now? Well, "Ric" aside, I haven't really seen it. Some team ups, sure. But those were with people already experienced one way or another. 

Thank goodness for Weisman and Young Justice. Dick may technically have been flying solo, but he asks friends to help out when he needs them, mentors up and coming heroes, and is a positive influence on the younger members.

----------


## Pohzee

Titans is cancelled per BC. I fully expect them to coincide a relaunch with Dick’s return to Nightwing. It would be nice to see some sort of push or at least coordination for the character.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I will not mourn the current Titans title if it is indeed cancelled. 
That property should be shelved until they have a solid idea of what direction they want to go in with it.

----------


## Konja7

The sales of Nightwing in December:

Nightwing #54 28,269

Nightwing #55 26,060

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-december-2018

----------


## Drako

> I will not mourn the current Titans title if it is indeed cancelled. 
> That property should be shelved until they have a solid idea of what direction they want to go in with it.


They'll relaunch with season 2 of the series, i bet.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The sales of Nightwing in December:
> 
> Nightwing #54 28,269
> 
> Nightwing #55 26,060
> 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-december-2018


2,200 drop off within a month. Ouch.

Can't say I blame those people, with the direction Nightwing has been going, but still.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Well, anyone who has a DC Universe subscription can relive or perhaps experience for the first time better days, as the entirety of Grayson has been added to the app:
https://twitter.com/TheDCUniverse/st...14915958734848

----------


## Avi

> The sales of Nightwing in December:
> 
> Nightwing #54 28,269
> 
> Nightwing #55 26,060
> 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-december-2018


NIGHTWING #51 35,026

NIGHTWING #52 26,623

NIGHTWING #53 26,442


What was so special about #54 that it temporarly gained 2,000?

----------


## Konja7

> 2,200 drop off within a month. Ouch.
> 
> Can't say I blame those people, with the direction Nightwing has been going, but still.


In fact, that seems to be the common. The second comic in the month usually sell less at some level than the first (just look at the sales of Batman). 

The sales of Nightwing #54 are higher than the sales Nightwing #52 and Nightwing #53 (both are 26K).

----------


## Konja7

> NIGHTWING #51 35,026
> 
> NIGHTWING #52 26,623
> 
> NIGHTWING #53 26,442
> 
> 
> What was so special about #54 that it temporarly gained 2,000?


I should mention that Nightwing #51 has so high sales, because it has a foil cover. 

Even before Lobdell and Ric, the sales were around 26K.

----------


## Drako

4chan leaked all the april solicits.
Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.

As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.

Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
>Tim Seeley
>Sam Humphries
> Jackson Lanzing
>Collin Kelly
>Michael Moreci
>Benjamin Percy
>Scott Lobdell
> Fabian Nicieza
>Eric Esquivel (fired before his issues released)
>Dan Jurgens

What a mess.

----------


## dropkickjake

Damn if that variant cover isnt beautiful though.

----------


## Avi

Ah, another solicitation that sounds the same.

Seeing all of these writers listed is pretty rough. But at least three of them were only supposed to stay for one Issue from the very beginning. And does Esquivel really belong on the list?

----------


## byrd156

> 4chan leaked all the april solicits.
> Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.
> 
> As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.
> 
> Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
> >Tim Seeley
> >Sam Humphries
> > Jackson Lanzing
> ...


I hope Jurgens actually does something.

----------


## Ascended

> 2,200 drop off within a month. Ouch.
> 
> Can't say I blame those people, with the direction Nightwing has been going, but still.


Good. As odd as it might sound, I believe the best thing for Nightwing right now is low sales. He's a popular character with a consistent and loyal fanbase. What other book out there could be this bad, for this long, and still be pulling sales in the mid-high 20's? As long as DC can make a profit from Dick, it won't matter to them how terrible it is. But if we stop buying, they'll have to realize that we won't accept this BS anymore and they'll have no real choice but to fix it. And I'm confident that Dick is too viable and valuable an IP for DC to get rid of him. Didio might want to, but I think that's beyond his power; he would've already if he could get away with it.

Low sales would force a cancellation. Dick's a big enough player DC won't let him stay gone for long. Low sales, if I'm right about all this, would force a return to form and a relaunch of the book sooner rather than later.

----------


## Badou

So Lobdell exits after the end of his Joker's Daughter story. I was wondering who would be Lobdell's new script writer after Esquivel was fired, but I guess Lobdell decided to move on too and they got another DC in house guy in Dan Jurgens to write this book now. Jurgens is just like Lobdell in that he can cobble together an issue very quickly and is someone that can produce on short notice. A veteran creator. I'd bet that is what happened here. 

Although it wouldn't surprise me at all if these Dan Jurgens issues are still going off Lobdell's plots like how Lobdell was going off Percy's plot ideas early on despite Percy not being credited anymore. Still, I'm betting on this story ending once Heroes in Crisis ends and they have 2-3 more issues of Nightwing to cover until the end of HiC. So I'd bet that Jurgens is only going to be on for a few issues to fill in and either we will get a new writer or the book will be cancelled to be relaunched around the Summer Batman event of King's. 




> Ah, another solicitation that sounds the same.
> 
> Seeing all of these writers listed is pretty rough. But at least three of them were only supposed to stay for one Issue from the very beginning. And does Esquivel really belong on the list?


Well Esquivel was scripting Lobdell stories like what Fabian was doing. They might keep some of his work on the issues since it is all Lobdell's plot anyway, but who knows. I posted that DC was editing Fabian's script themselves earlier and adding or changing things. So that is what will probably happen to the Esquivel scripted issues. We will never really know.

----------


## Konja7

> Good. As odd as it might sound, I believe the best thing for Nightwing right now is low sales. He's a popular character with a consistent and loyal fanbase. What other book out there could be this bad, for this long, and still be pulling sales in the mid-high 20's? As long as DC can make a profit from Dick, it won't matter to them how terrible it is. But if we stop buying, they'll have to realize that we won't accept this BS anymore and they'll have no real choice but to fix it. And I'm confident that Dick is too viable and valuable an IP for DC to get rid of him. Didio might want to, but I think that's beyond his power; he would've already if he could get away with it.
> 
> Low sales would force a cancellation. Dick's a big enough player DC won't let him stay gone for long. Low sales, if I'm right about all this, would force a return to form and a relaunch of the book sooner rather than later.


As I said, a fell of 2200 is normal for the second comic in the month.

In fact, Nightwing #54 (28K) sells slightly higher than usual. 

Also, Nightwing was selling around 26K before Lobdell and Ric. So, the message for DC isn't good.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> 4chan leaked all the april solicits.
> Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.
> 
> As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.
> 
> Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
> >Tim Seeley
> >Sam Humphries
> > Jackson Lanzing
> ...


I know I shouldn't expect any better from 4chan, but that list is bs. It really waters the point down when half the list you use to make the point doesn't count for one reason or another. 

For one, if the list is about the number of writers on Nightwing since Seeley's left, then why is Seeley on the list? Then there's counting Lanzing and Kelly as separate writers even though they co-wrote their issue together. And on top of that, Lanzing/Kelly and Moreci each only write a single tie-in issue, they have nothing to do with the greater point and are only being used to add numbers. Nicieza scripted several of Lobdell's issues, but since they worked together, they shouldn't count as separate writers. Esquivel is a scumbag and an abuser, we should be glad he dropped from the issue. And given that the issue was never released, he has not written for the book. His issue was co-written by Lobdell, who is still writing that issue.

The list should go:
-Humphries
-Percy
-Lobdell
-Jurgens

And now that list suddenly doesn't look so bad, given that it's 4 writers over 22 issues (22 because the 2 fill-in issues don't count towards this), although we don't know how many issues Jurgens is on for.

The problem with the book right now is the current status quo for the character, and that's coming directly from the editors. It doesn't matter how many writers are on the book, how often they change, or who the writer is, because the status quo will never be good.

----------


## Badou

> I know I shouldn't expect any better from 4chan, but that list is bs. It really waters the point down when half the list you use to make the point doesn't count for one reason or another. 
> 
> For one, if the list is about the number of writers on Nightwing since Seeley's left, then why is Seeley on the list? Then there's counting Lanzing and Kelly as separate writers even though they co-wrote their issue together. And on top of that, Lanzing/Kelly and Moreci each only write a single tie-in issue, they have nothing to do with the greater point and are only being used to add numbers. Nicieza scripted several of Lobdell's issues, but since they worked together, they shouldn't count as separate writers. Esquivel is a scumbag and an abuser, we should be glad he dropped from the issue. And given that the issue was never released, he has not written for the book. His issue was co-written by Lobdell, who is still writing that issue.
> 
> The list should go:
> -Humphries
> -Percy
> -Lobdell
> -Jurgens
> ...


Well I think you need to count Lanzing, Kelly, and Moreci. They were writers on the Nightwing book. Their issues were basically inventory issues used to try and bridge the gap during the change over with the ongoing writers, but I think it would still count. Also I think you need to count the writers scripting too. It would technically look like this if you broke it down: 

-Humphries (on for one arc)
-Lanzing & Kelly (one issue)
-Moreci (one issue)
-Percy (one arc + a few other issues)
-Lobdell & Nicieza (one arc + one mini arc that Esquivel was going to script when Nicieza left)
-Jurgens (unknown) 

That is basically all within a year and a few months. That is a lot of cycling through creators. The problems do stem from the editors and upper management, no arguing that, but other writers see this won't want to get involved with this book given how messy it is. This kind of changeover is seriously damaging in terms of being able to attract creators. Seeley leaving because he got burnt out and frustrated with the book and Humphries leaving after 1 arc were noteworthy to me. This was all before King's plans of shooting Dick in the head, so I think the book was having problems for a while and they kind of hit the ceiling once Percy left after King fucked up his story. Then it has been DC editors and their reliable in-house writers churning out issues during the Ric arc.

----------


## Frontier

> 4chan leaked all the april solicits.
> Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.
> 
> As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.
> 
> Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
> >Tim Seeley
> >Sam Humphries
> > Jackson Lanzing
> ...


I feel bad for Jurgens getting stuck with this.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Screenshot (27).jpg
So I was compiling sales data for fun months, and it's been kinda sitting to side for a bit. I haven't really gotten around to actually _doing_ anything with it yet, like making graphs and looking for trends and such. And keep in mind that since I kinda just made this on a whim, that the chance for error is quite high lol. But what I just noticed as I was adding the numbers for #50-55, was that 26K is the current baseline...except it's been the baseline for quite a while, as Konja7 brought up. Looking back, the book has been selling very steadily aside from the odd spike (!), and that's not just during the Lobdell run, it's been that way during all of Percy's run. That 26K is indicative of the hardcore Dick Grayson fanbase, and I don't see DC cancelling the book as long as the book stays above the baseline. It's sad, but it is what it is.

Edit: I wish I knew how to make images bigger lol. 




> Well I think you need to count Lanzing, Kelly, and Moreci. They were writers on the Nightwing book. Their issues were basically inventory issues used to try and bridge the gap during the change over with the ongoing writers, but I think it would still count. Also I think you need to count the writers scripting too. It would technically look like this if you broke it down: 
> 
> -Humphries (on for one arc)
> -Lanzing & Kelly (one issue)
> -Moreci (one issue)
> -Percy (one arc + a few other issues)
> -Lobdell & Nicieza (one arc + one mini arc that Esquivel was going to script when Nicieza left)
> -Jurgens (unknown) 
> 
> That is basically all within a year and a few months. That is a lot of cycling through creators. The problems do stem from the editors and upper management, no arguing that, but other writers see this won't want to get involved with this book given how messy it is. This kind of changeover is seriously damaging in terms of being able to attract creators. Seeley leaving because he got burnt out and frustrated with the book and Humphries leaving after 1 arc were noteworthy to me. This was all before King's plans of shooting Dick in the head, so I think the book was having problems for a while and they kind of hit the ceiling once Percy left after King fucked up his story. Then it has been DC editors and their reliable in-house writers churning out issues during the Ric arc.


What point are you making by counting inventory issues? That books shouldn't have inventory issues because it means changing writers? It just has no bearing on the larger point, that the book is scrambling for writers. They used the fill-ins because they were planning a big splash with Percy. Humphries was on the Nightwing book specifically for 7 issues because that's what they wanted, he was always going to write Harley Quinn. Humphries was essentially a fill-in, too, we just didn't know it at the start because he never stated his plans beyond the 7 issues (we now know it's because he had no plans, and he was thinking about his HQ run instead). Ultimately, if DC instead chose to go a month with no Nightwing, and relaunch with Percy instead, the book would still be in the gutter it is right now. It was the editors stepping on Percy that started it all. 

But all of that aside, your breakdown works much better at illustrating the point. Although I have to wonder where this Esquivel mini-arc thing is coming from, is this known info? I missed it, if so. And I'm glad we didn't get it, tbh.

----------


## Badou

Just realized that Jurgens is writing Batman Beyond (probably why they went to him to write Nightwing as he already is in the Batman office like Lobdell), and introduced some future version of Dick who is Mayor of Bludhaven (kill me now) with a daughter. Wonder if Jurgens is going to try and put in any of his Beyond stuff during his Nightwing stint since apparently Jurgens thinks his Beyond story is completely canon. 




> But all of that aside, your breakdown works much better at illustrating the point. Although I have to wonder where this Esquivel mini-arc thing is coming from, is this known info? I missed it, if so. And I'm glad we didn't get it, tbh.


Yes, the Joker's Daughter arc (the arc after Scarecrow we are about to start which is #57-58) was supposed to be plotted by Lobdell and scripted by Esquivel. Just like how Lobdell worked together with Nicieza for the Scarecrow arc. Lobdell wasn't writing the book himself and when Nicieza declined to help write 57-58 DC needed someone else to help and they went to Esquivel, maybe with plans that Esquivel would take over after the Joker's Daughter arc but who knows. So no idea if Esquivel's scripts will be used as it is all based off Lobdell's plot.

----------


## yohyoi

> I feel bad for Jurgens getting stuck with this.


I feel bad for everyone involved. Fans are annoyed and angry as hell, and DC won't listen. Bad times... Nightwing needs a miracle to get out of this mess.

----------


## K7P5V

> Which episodes of BTAS would worthwhile for Dick fans?  I think the Nightwingies are hanging around until Didio can justify canceling the book.





> Robin's Reckoning part 1 & 2 is my all-time favorite version of Dick's origin.
> 
> Don't forget Christmas with the Joker and If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?. Also Fear of Victory is damn good. There are more but these are probably my favorites.





> 





> I remember this comic .





> All the Batgirl episodes are great.


Totally agree, especially _Over the Edge_.

----------


## yohyoi

> 4chan leaked all the april solicits.
> Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.
> 
> As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.
> 
> Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
> >Tim Seeley
> >Sam Humphries
> > Jackson Lanzing
> ...


When 4chan sees something as a mess, it has gone beyond a mess and is now a catastrophe. Nightwing is that drug addict you are expecting to OD anyday now. It isn't pretty.

----------


## yohyoi

Also Titans is finally cancelled. Thank the Lord. I don't have to keep correcting people that isn't Dick with a Green Lantern ring, but Kyle. Dick isn't a Green Lantern.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm amazed Nightwing is still selling over 20k. I only heard bad things from people these past months. It's up there with Hydra Cap.

----------


## byrd156

> I feel bad for Jurgens getting stuck with this.


I think Jurgens can pull an alright story out of nowhere.

----------


## 9th.

> 4chan leaked all the april solicits.
> Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.
> 
> As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.
> 
> Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
> >Tim Seeley
> >Sam Humphries
> > Jackson Lanzing
> ...


Theres a black Nightwing now? Whats going on in this picture?

----------


## byrd156

> Theres a black Nightwing now? Whats going on in this picture?


Read and find out.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

Jurgens, alright. Better then what we got i guess. Why are they still continuing with this We Are Nightwing crap though. We Are Robin bombed, and this is a poorer imitation. And Mooneyham still. Whatever.

----------


## nightbird

Yasmine Putri still one of the best Nightwing variant cover artist... That’s it. 

Just how Nightwing’s book so fast turned into completely unreadable mess. And I liked this series so much at the start of Rebirth...

----------


## Se7en

Why does he look like a Punisher reject in that cover...How messy did the book became lol

----------


## Godlike13

The creators on this book thought it would be a good idea to take hobo Ric and have him run around with filth on his face. Cause what’s cooler then a filthy hobo with rope. Honestly everyone involved on this direction have been terrible. From the writers bad regurgitated ideas, to the artists lame tone deaf designs. 

Mooneyham was never a good fit on this book. Even for Percy’s run, which was about modern technology, his gritty style didn’t capture the tones or themes at all. It made Bludhaven and the Dark Web look dated and ugly. The annual made it especially apparent. Even now though. They have girls comment how pretty Ric is, except the art has him looking like a ghoul most the time. It’s so off the mark.

----------


## byrd156

This is honestly hilarious. People got paid to do this. This was probably someone's first introduction to comics.

----------


## Avi

I'm glad that Moore bolted though, the direction doesn't deserve him.

Mooneyham as a Dick Grayson artist I don't get at all. It just doesn't have a good vibe for a youthful character. DC could have at least gotten some former Jason artist's for this run.

----------


## nightbird

After watching YJ3s resent episodes I like how they portray Dicks connection to all DC heroes and how a lot of them would actually help if he asks. Something that we lost in comics for good I feel.

----------


## Restingvoice

Bleeding Cool reported Titans #36 solicitation is the final issue and speculated with both Titans and Young Justice on air they will relaunch with a new creative team and direction immediately
I see Nightwing #59 got Dan Jurgens. He's a big name. 
So if they're... I wanna say smart, but if they're smart they wouldn't have done this in the first place... they'll relaunch both Nightwing and Titans to follow the success of Titans and Young Justice the next month.

----------


## Drako

> Theres a black Nightwing now? Whats going on in this picture?


There's a lot of Nightwings now.

----------


## byrd156

> After watching YJ3’s resent episodes I like how they portray Dick’s connection to all DC heroes and how a lot of them would actually help if he asks. Something that we lost in comics for good I feel.


I don't think it's gone for good but it's definitely gone for maybe another decade or so.

----------


## dietrich

> 4chan leaked all the april solicits.
> Lobdell is off, enter Dan Jurgens.
> 
> As someone pointed out in the 4chan boards.
> 
> Writers this book has had since Seeley left in Dec 2017. 
> >Tim Seeley
> >Sam Humphries
> > Jackson Lanzing
> ...


Why is this still going? Does that mean the Nighwing in Tec 1000 is going to be Ric because that's messed up

----------


## Godlike13

No, it’s gonna be that random cop guy. He’s head Nightwing now, lol.

----------


## Pohzee

> This is honestly hilarious. People got paid to do this. This was probably someone's first introduction to comics.


If this was someone’s first comic, then it would also be their last comic.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> After watching YJ3’s resent episodes I like how they portray Dick’s connection to all DC heroes and how a lot of them would actually help if he asks. Something that we lost in comics for good I feel.


Yup... I was just reminiscing yesterday about Dick's position on the Team. When he was leader, Cassie used to call him "Boss" and it was cute. Reminded me of his relationship with Kara in the comics before Flashpoint. It's just really nice to be following a version of Dick who has his act together and is as popular in-universe as he is out of it. Every hero knows Dick, and some of the biggest villains too as of Episode 9 of Outsiders, in spite of Dick trying to keep the existence of Nightwing hidden from the public.




> I'm glad that Moore bolted though, the direction doesn't deserve him.
> 
> Mooneyham as a Dick Grayson artist I don't get at all. It just doesn't have a good vibe for a youthful character. DC could have at least gotten some former Jason artist's for this run.


I'm pretty sure Moore said he's back for #56 and that he wants to keep drawing Dick. Hopefully he'll be on an issue where Dick is really Dick. 

And about Mooneyham, he got tons of praise at the start of Percy's run. It was odd to me since I didn't like the direction of the book, but tons of comic readers and critics were heaping it on. I noticed it was the more general readers or fans who weren't hardcore Nightwing readers that were liking it, tho. Fans like us were not into it from the get-go, iirc.

----------


## Godlike13

Oh, joy. Can’t wait for Moore’s 5 pages.

----------


## nightbird

> Yup... I was just reminiscing yesterday about Dick's position on the Team. When he was leader, Cassie used to call him "Boss" and it was cute. Reminded me of his relationship with Kara in the comics before Flashpoint. It's just really nice to be following a version of Dick who has his act together and is as popular in-universe as he is out of it. Every hero knows Dick, and some of the biggest villains too as of Episode 9 of Outsiders, in spite of Dick trying to keep the existence of Nightwing hidden from the public.


I kinda want to know what happened in those 5 years that made everyone aware who is Dick Grayson. Considering in first two seasons he used to hide his identity even from his teammates. 

Also, it’s nice to see that both Titans and YJ3 doing something interesting with him. At least it shows that problem was never in character, but in writers and DC’s management; they never took a time and interest in developing him and his world. Which is shame, when you look how popular he is. 
DC always for some reasons shy away from pushing forward their fan favorite characters unless they belong to 1st generation or named Harley Quinn.

----------


## Godlike13

Given YJ Dick, he probably dated too many of the girls to viably keep his cover.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c31/1901/6b/f6993422c8bc.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Kory by Gabriel Picolo
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs0vxpvB21I/

----------


## Darkspellmaster

With Dan at least the writing will be compelling and competent. What has me worried is that until King is through with his run it seems like a lot of books are being held hostage. This Ric (Rick) thing may be fixed but like forever evil damage will be done. Agreed that it's not the character it's the team behind him that is the issue and the higher ups.

----------


## nightbird

> Given YJ Dick, he probably dated too many of the girls to viably keep his cover.


He dated Zatanna, Rocket and Babs. I don’t think that having a thing/dating 3 superhero girls would also make all bad guys aware who he is. Like Bruce was involved with Talia in YJuniverse and her dad part of bad guys secret society. And Bats identity seems like still as much a secret as it used to be. Or maybe I’m overlooking something... At least Cassie also comfortable called Tim by his name when he was in Robin costume around everyone.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d36/1901/05/4be1cbe74053.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Babs

[IMG]https://c.***********/c06/1901/d9/05c15a9180ef.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Artemis 

credit:tumblr

----------


## Frontier

> He dated Zatanna, Rocket and Babs. I don’t think that having a thing/dating 3 superhero girls would also make all bad guys aware who he is. Like Bruce was involved with Talia in YJuniverse and her dad part of bad guys secret society. And Bats identity seems like still as much a secret as it used to be. Or maybe I’m overlooking something... At least Cassie also comfortable called Tim by his name when he was in Robin costume around everyone.


Diana called Batman "Bruce" in front of a bunch of non-founding members in the first episode of the season, so he might be more lax when it comes to the families secret identities now.

----------


## Avi

Didn't know Moore is going to return, at least sonething nice to look at, I guess.

I'm not too sure how much Jurgens will really change. The solicitations read the same, editorial keeps a hand over the plot and - as has been mentioned - some dialog is not even written by the writers themselves.




> Diana called Batman "Bruce" in front of a bunch of non-founding members in the first episode of the season, so he might be more lax when it comes to the families secret identities now.


Which is actually compelling character developement but I which we knew why he had a change of heart. He was very strict about it after all.

----------


## Pohzee

If I remember from the tie-in comics, the OG cast knew Dick's ID before season two, but Tim had to keep his ID secret still during the season.

----------


## Frontier

> If I remember from the tie-in comics, the OG cast knew Dick's ID before season two, but Tim had to keep his ID secret still during the season.


It was clear Wally knew by the end of season 1 at least.

----------


## Badou

> Bleeding Cool reported Titans #36 solicitation is the final issue and speculated with both Titans and Young Justice on air they will relaunch with a new creative team and direction immediately
> I see Nightwing #59 got Dan Jurgens. He's a big name. 
> So if they're... I wanna say smart, but if they're smart they wouldn't have done this in the first place... they'll relaunch both Nightwing and Titans to follow the success of Titans and Young Justice the next month.


I think Jurgens is only going to be on for a few issues and the Nightwing book is going to get cancelled or will get another new creative team after Jurgens short run. HiC will be finished and it would be in time for the King Batman Summer event. 

I said this in the Titans thread but my fear is that Abnett will get put on the Nightwing book since he has an opening in his schedule now. That is the kind of luck we have. That honestly terrifies me. More so than Lobdell on the book to be honest.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It was clear Wally knew by the end of season 1 at least.


It was actually highly suggested that Wally knew Dick's ID before the formation of the team, like during the Haley's Circus episode, and Dick was talking to Wally. Wally knew about Dick's past, and seemed to may have been the only one at the time.

----------


## Pohzee

https://twitter.com/chrisjonesart/st...651769346?s=21

Young Justice is the #1 original streaming show right now. Titans is #2. Who said our boi couldn't stand on his own? Dick is leading a new group: the charts!

----------


## yohyoi

> https://twitter.com/chrisjonesart/st...651769346?s=21
> 
> Young Justice is the #1 original streaming show right now. Titans is #2. Who said our boi couldn't stand on his own? Dick is leading a new group: the charts!


Good news!  :Smile: 

Hopefully, we get Dick Grayson in the movies. Titans has been a hit in Netflix. So we can expect Dick Grayson every year or so. Yay!!!

----------


## Drako

He's leading two teams of heroes in two different shows! Hopefully he'll return to be Dick Grayson in the comics soon so we can be happy in both medias.

----------


## yohyoi

> I think Jurgens is only going to be on for a few issues and the Nightwing book is going to get cancelled or will get another new creative team after Jurgens short run. HiC will be finished and it would be in time for the King Batman Summer event. 
> 
> I said this in the Titans thread but my fear is that Abnett will get put on the Nightwing book since he has an opening in his schedule now. That is the kind of luck we have. That honestly terrifies me. More so than Lobdell on the book to be honest.


If it's Abnett, I'm expecting Dick to only do something for 3 pages every issue. While being a background character to someone Abnett really wants to write. The thing with Miss Martian should not have happened. Looking back at it now, that was pointless.

----------


## Arsenal

First thing Dick needs to do when he comes back is look Bruce in the cowl and say “I’m the Batman now”

Bruce clearly needs to be grounded for awhile so he can get his shit together.

----------


## 9th.

I've always wondered. What was the general consensus when Dick "died" in Forever Evil. Did y'all know Grayson was coming or was there a similar freakout comparable to the Ric situation that's going on now?

----------


## 9th.

> https://twitter.com/chrisjonesart/st...651769346?s=21
> 
> Young Justice is the #1 original streaming show right now. Titans is #2. Who said our boi couldn't stand on his own? Dick is leading a new group: the charts!


Thats crazy actually

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/chrisjonesart/st...651769346?s=21
> 
> Young Justice is the #1 original streaming show right now. Titans is #2. Who said our boi couldn't stand on his own? Dick is leading a new group: the charts!


I'm honestly more surprised _Titans_ is #2. I guess I really underestimated it. 

Maybe DC Universe actually knows what it's doing  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## nightbird

> https://twitter.com/chrisjonesart/st...651769346?s=21
> 
> Young Justice is the #1 original streaming show right now. Titans is #2. Who said our boi couldn't stand on his own? Dick is leading a new group: the charts!


The difference between two actually minimal, which is surprising considering that YJ has an established fanbase, while Titans faced a lot of criticism. 

Also lmfao them using negative quote out of all possible reviews. I don’t know how cheap it looks, but cinematography in Titans actually good, minus that strange blue tint. Same with fights.

----------


## Ascended

So, I know the issues in question came out months ago, but I finally sat down to read the "motorcycle death race" issues from Percy's run. I don't recall how well the issues went over with people, but I loved it as much as I had hoped I would. They read far too quickly but damn they were fun.

Why the hell can't we have more of that? Those two issues were great! I thought so anyway. They really help prove the "Super Bat" idea some of us are always floating about.

And good for YJ and Titans! I'm not surprised by YJ (that show was always more popular than CN allowed it to be) but I've been amazed at how successful Titans has been with the fandom. We hate almost everything, so this is kinda big.  :Smile:  And I love that we're getting two quality Dick Grayson's out of the deal, even if I haven't watched either yet. Plus TTGO! It's damn solid exposure, and even if a chunk of that is as Robin, it all helps Nightwing. 

Hey, is YJ really as bloody as it seems to be? I watched a little clip with a Lobo fight that was way too brutal for my five year old girl. Watching the show has always been a tradition with my kids but it's looking like that's finished now.  :Frown:

----------


## Badou

> If it's Abnett, I'm expecting Dick to only do something for 3 pages every issue. While being a background character to someone Abnett really wants to write. The thing with Miss Martian should not have happened. Looking back at it now, that was pointless.


More like Dick will spend every issue asking Bruce if he is disappointed in him and then get beat up by someone, lol.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> I've always wondered. What was the general consensus when Dick "died" in Forever Evil. Did y'all know Grayson was coming or was there a similar freakout comparable to the Ric situation that's going on now?


Subscribers were notified that their Nightwing subscription was gonna change to a 'Grayson' title so it wasn't as crazy as this. The only blowup was that he was outted to the whole world. I think this freakout has been the worse NW freakout ever.

----------


## Jackalope89

> So, I know the issues in question came out months ago, but I finally sat down to read the "motorcycle death race" issues from Percy's run. I don't recall how well the issues went over with people, but I loved it as much as I had hoped I would. They read far too quickly but damn they were fun.
> 
> Why the hell can't we have more of that? Those two issues were great! I thought so anyway. They really help prove the "Super Bat" idea some of us are always floating about.
> 
> And good for YJ and Titans! I'm not surprised by YJ (that show was always more popular than CN allowed it to be) but I've been amazed at how successful Titans has been with the fandom. We hate almost everything, so this is kinda big.  And I love that we're getting two quality Dick Grayson's out of the deal, even if I haven't watched either yet. Plus TTGO! It's damn solid exposure, and even if a chunk of that is as Robin, it all helps Nightwing. 
> 
> Hey, is YJ really as bloody as it seems to be? I watched a little clip with a Lobo fight that was way too brutal for my five year old girl. Watching the show has always been a tradition with my kids but it's looking like that's finished now.


Some parts are dark, yes. And not sure if it was ever really meant for such young kids in the first place, truth be told.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> So, I know the issues in question came out months ago, but I finally sat down to read the "motorcycle death race" issues from Percy's run. I don't recall how well the issues went over with people, but I loved it as much as I had hoped I would. They read far too quickly but damn they were fun.
> 
> Why the hell can't we have more of that? Those two issues were great! I thought so anyway. They really help prove the "Super Bat" idea some of us are always floating about.
> 
> And good for YJ and Titans! I'm not surprised by YJ (that show was always more popular than CN allowed it to be) but I've been amazed at how successful Titans has been with the fandom. We hate almost everything, so this is kinda big.  And I love that we're getting two quality Dick Grayson's out of the deal, even if I haven't watched either yet. Plus TTGO! It's damn solid exposure, and even if a chunk of that is as Robin, it all helps Nightwing. 
> 
> Hey, is YJ really as bloody as it seems to be? I watched a little clip with a Lobo fight that was way too brutal for my five year old girl. Watching the show has always been a tradition with my kids but it's looking like that's finished now.


Hey, I've been super open about adoring the Isle of Harm arc of Percy's run. Those were awesome, and really should've been what his whole run should've been like. 

And yes, YJ is more bloody now. I have my own thoughts on it, but the important thing is YJ is now aimed at the kids and adults that have grown up during and after the first two seasons of YJ. I'm 21 now, but I was 13 when YJ first premiered. That's the sorta audience they're going for now.

----------


## nightbird

> More like Dick will spend every issue asking Bruce if he is disappointed in him and then get beat up by someone, lol.


I can actually imagine that. Yikes lol

----------


## Badou

> I've always wondered. What was the general consensus when Dick "died" in Forever Evil. Did y'all know Grayson was coming or was there a similar freakout comparable to the Ric situation that's going on now?


I want to say that we knew the Grayson series was coming before Dick "died" in Forever Evil. So there wasn't much of a freakout. Dick dying wasn't that heavily promoted. He died technically in Forever Evil where Luthor stopped his heart to remove the bomb that he was attached to, but that or Dick having to pretend to be dead weren't these big things at the time. Grayson was announced in April 2014 and the last 2 issues of FE were released in May and June and one of those were where Dick "died".

But like someone already said the BIG freakout was Dick's identity being exposed to the world in the first issue of Forever Evil. That is something that caught everyone by surprise. Dick got captured by the Crime Syndicate of America and they exposed his identity by putting it on every TV screen and mobile device in the entire world. So every single person knew Dick was Nightwing. The freakout wasn't as bad as the King shooting him/Ric Grayson situation since Forever Evil was DC's first big event. So while people were nervous and upset since it was such a huge change there was hope that this would lead to Dick playing a big role in Forever Evil and maybe something else afterwards since you would figure Dick's identity being exposed would be this HUGE story. 

That didn't end up happening as Dick spent all of Forever Evil strapped to a chair or a bomb and did fuck all. Then Johns had no plans or interest in following up on Dick's identity being exposed after using it for shock value and it was never even brought up in the JL books. The Batman office had no interest in dealing with the exposed identity too, especially Snyder who never even mentioned it in his Batman stories when you would think it would be a big deal. The Batman office had plans already and didn't want to deal with it and that lead to them deciding that Dick should pretend to be dead to push that situation away. There was no indication that Dick would pretend to be dead in Forever Evil and we learned about it when the Grayson series was first announced. 

From that it lead to the Grayson book. Originally Tynion was going to be put on the Nightwing book after Higgins left and would have Dick wear a blonde wig to disguise himself, but I think they realized that would still mess things up and they needed to move Dick far away from Gotham and their current Batman plans. So the new main Batman editor at the time, Mark Doyle, then asked a bunch of creators to pitch stories with Dick as a spy and that lead to King and Seeley on the Grayson book and the whole exposed identity thing was contained in just the Grayson series. So they cancelled the Nightwing book for a little bit and quickly put together and planned out the Grayson book. 

I was excited for the Grayson book as it was DC trying something different with the character in a fresh location calling back to some of Morrison's ideas, but there were a lot that were upset with the idea of Dick not being Nightwing anymore, cut off from the Batman family, and that he looked different. All very similar to the Ric situation now, and both stories were created to get Dick out of the way too, but the big difference was that the Grayson series was a creator driven idea and Ric wasn't. King and Seeley were passionate about and interested in writing Grayson, since they came up with it, but Ric was a story management came up with to get Dick out of the way and Percy and Lobdell weren't passionate or interested in it. This is what made me immediately angry over the story from the start. Since it had zero chance of being good when there was no planning or care involved. 

This post is already too long, but the Ric situation is probably what would have happened if the Tynion blonde Nightwing run happened instead of the Grayson series. A poorly designed idea were a writer is just writing a story management wants. I just wonder if the Ric story would have been as big a disaster if Doyle was still the Batman editor.

----------


## Godlike13

There wasn't even a freak out when they shot him in the head, its all the crap that came after.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I've always wondered. What was the general consensus when Dick "died" in Forever Evil. Did y'all know Grayson was coming or was there a similar freakout comparable to the Ric situation that's going on now?


I wasn't here then but this is what I saw, heard, and debated with people

Grayson was coming right before Forever Evil ends. The main freakout was about the cover showing him using a gun, followed quickly by people mocking how could he be a James Bond if his identity is exposed to the world, calling it stupid. 

The second anger came after Tynion and Hetrick's Nightwing ending was revealed. It showed images of a heartfelt funeral issue and family gathering, including Justice League and Gotham honoring him, and considered vastly preferred to King's Nightwing ending that's actually more of a Grayson prologue, where the whole issue is spent on Batman beating up Nightwing until he agreed to be secret agent, which, after the beating he got from Crime Syndicate and how Batman was very protective of him, is considered out of character and abusive.   

Some refused to read Grayson until word of mouth came back and say it's good. Some refuse to read until after Grayson returned to Gotham and revealed himself to the family because they think the whole faking dead thing is stupid. Some refuse to read because of the overt sexualization and depiction of Dick that rely more on charm and improv than intelligence and planning. Some refuse to read until he became Nightwing again, and when they announced Seeley will be writing, some still refuse to read because they don't like how he writes Dick's character.

Oh, and a lot of cover, promotion and variant for Grayson features him using a gun, so some people refuse to read it because it features Dick with a gun.

----------


## Badou

> There wasn't even a freak out when they shot him in the head, its all the crap that came after.


Well it was all leaked that Dick would get injured a while before Batman #55 came out. I think there was a bit of a freakout when it first became know, but we didn't know the details. Then it gradually changed into something else. There is still that original solicit where Dick was going to suffer from vertigo as a result of the injury and there was going to be a love triangle. Then it was revealed that Dick was going to get shot in the head, get amnesia and go by Ric. That is when it blew up. I think that is when the Nightwing #50 cover with the shaved head was leaked.

----------


## Ascended

> Hey, I've been super open about adoring the Isle of Harm arc of Percy's run. Those were awesome, and really should've been what his whole run should've been like.


I know right? Those issues were awesome, and other than them reading way too fast I don't think I have a single complaint about them. 




> And yes, YJ is more bloody now. I have my own thoughts on it, but the important thing is YJ is now aimed at the kids and adults that have grown up during and after the first two seasons of YJ. I'm 21 now, but I was 13 when YJ first premiered. That's the sorta audience they're going for now.


That's a shame. I've been watching that show with my kids since the start. My son is old enough to handle the blood and gore but my daughter isn't. Oh well, she and I have Justice League Action at least. I know that show's over but we have the DvD's.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Since Dc hates Dick I guess he doesn't even get to keep his team right now in the Giant Special TT.  He is supposed to be Dick to me but he's in limbo now. Tim isn't even supposed to be robin in yj let alone any incarnation of the Ntt.Feels to me jurgens wants to write NTT but had to use Tim, coz editorial . Kinda kills any hopes of mine that there will be changes in NW with Jurgens.
.

----------


## byrd156

> He dated Zatanna, Rocket and Babs. I dont think that having a thing/dating 3 superhero girls would also make all bad guys aware who he is. Like Bruce was involved with Talia in YJuniverse and her dad part of bad guys secret society. And Bats identity seems like still as much a secret as it used to be. Or maybe Im overlooking something... At least Cassie also comfortable called Tim by his name when he was in Robin costume around everyone.


And Bette.

----------


## Pohzee

> And Bette.


I assume that we were keeping it to in-universe heroes, otherwise the implication seems to me that the list could be potentially much longer.

----------


## byrd156

> I assume that we were keeping it to in-universe heroes, otherwise the implication seems to me that the list could be potentially much longer.


She may not be a hero in this universe but she was a pretty prominent part of the comic tie-ins and Dick's in-universe history so it feels wrong to leave her out.

----------


## Frontier

> She may not be a hero in this universe but she was a pretty prominent part of the comic tie-ins and Dick's in-universe history so it feels wrong to leave her out.


Now that Batwoman's established, I think a costumed Bette can't be far behind  :Smile: .

----------


## Rac7d*

did this come out alreayd?

----------


## dropkickjake

didnt that happen as a fill in back during Seeley's run?

Edit: Yeah. Issue 21

----------


## yohyoi

Titans get cancelled when Nightwing is no longer part of the team. Too bad for the characters especially Donna and Raven, but Titans have been directionless for a long time.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Titans get cancelled when Nightwing is no longer part of the team. Too bad for the characters especially Donna and Raven, but Titans have been directionless for a long time.


Raven at least has her own mini right now. With Wolfman himself at the helm.

Gar and the others though? Yeah. They're going to be in limbo for awhile.

----------


## oasis1313

> Titans get cancelled when Nightwing is no longer part of the team. Too bad for the characters especially Donna and Raven, but Titans have been directionless for a long time.


Abnett and Didio would say you're wrong:  Kyle Radner is far more popular than Dick Grayson and can carry a team book even more successfully.

----------


## Frontier

> Raven at least has her own mini right now. With Wolfman himself at the helm.
> 
> Gar and the others though? Yeah. They're going to be in limbo for awhile.


I really don't see Beast Boy being in limbo for long.

----------


## Restingvoice

> did this come out alreayd?


That's an edit. The original was Nightwing #21

----------


## byrd156

> did this come out alreayd?


Can we have this series please?

----------


## Konja7

> Since Dc hates Dick I guess he doesn't even get to keep his team right now in the Giant Special TT.  He is supposed to be Dick to me but he's in limbo now. Tim isn't even supposed to be robin in yj let alone any incarnation of the Ntt.Feels to me jurgens wants to write NTT but had to use Tim, coz editorial . Kinda kills any hopes of mine that there will be changes in NW with Jurgens.
> .


Well, the Giant Special TT wants to attract new readers, they will use Robin, since it is a more popular identity than Nightwing among the general audience (and they usually connect Robin with Teen Titans). 


PS: Tim was Robin with Starfire, Raven and Beast Boy for a time in the previous continuity.

----------


## dietrich

Great to hear Dick's show are 1 and 2 top streaming shows.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c28/1901/05/3a5917170820.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing by Nick Robles

----------


## Restingvoice

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c28/1901/05/3a5917170820.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Nightwing by Nick Robles


If he's not working at DC already he should

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c28/1901/05/3a5917170820.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Nightwing by Nick Robles


Who is this artist?  He's very good.

----------


## nightbird

> If he's not working at DC already he should


Here his another Nightwing art
[IMG]https://a.***********/a11/1901/f5/e08e74a43df5.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

> Who is this artist?  He's very good.


https://www.instagram.com/nickroblesart/
http://www.nickroblesart.com

----------


## Conn Seanery

Folks, report spambots/copycat spammers, don't reply to or quote them.

----------


## oasis1313

> Folks, report spambots/copycat spammers, don't reply to or quote them.


I'm sorry to confess I don't know what spambots are.  What should we be looking for?

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm sorry to confess I don't know what spambots are.  What should we be looking for?


Profiles that post only messages advertising a product of some sort. Often either starting a new thread, or attempting to hi-jack established ones. Sometimes in English, but many times in other languages.

----------


## oasis1313

> Profiles that post only messages advertising a product of some sort. Often either starting a new thread, or attempting to hi-jack established ones. Sometimes in English, but many times in other languages.


Thanks, Jackalope.  I've seen those before but didn't know what they were called.

I had been okay with Mooneyham's artwork initially but it seems to be drifting away from Klaus Janson's inspiration and just makes Dick look old and ugly.  Seeing this Robles artwork makes me think DC could do better for Dick, a character well known for physical attractiveness.  Anyone else have thoughts on it?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a29/1901/d1/8946305c5f96.jpg[/IMG]

Variant cover by Yasmine Putri

----------


## Godlike13

Is that the first variant that has actually had Ric in it? If that even is Ric.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

It's ambiguous enough that it could be Ric or Dick, which is part of why it works so well lmao. That might actually be my favourite Nightwing cover now. Yasmine Putri is the GOAT, and I'm so thankful she's done so many Nightwing covers.

----------


## dropkickjake

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...restructuring/

Word is a big shake up is happening, btw.

There are some murmurings of DiDio being gone. Rich isn't convinced.

----------


## KrustyKid

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a29/1901/d1/8946305c5f96.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Variant cover by Yasmine Putri


That's one beautiful cover.

----------


## byrd156

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...restructuring/
> 
> Word is a big shake up is happening, btw.
> 
> There are some murmurings of DiDio being gone. Rich isn't convinced.


Dan will probably be fine.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dan will probably be fine.


With my luck, Darlin’ Dan is as immortal as my mother-in-law.

----------


## Ascended

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...restructuring/
> 
> Word is a big shake up is happening, btw.
> 
> There are some murmurings of DiDio being gone. Rich isn't convinced.


Maybe that Nightwing fan WB exec we've been hoping for has finally arrived to right the ship.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Only the structure has changed, it's been streamlined into three separate groups. I don't quite care enough to remember their names, but basically there's the Bob Harras team which is still editorial, a team that actually produces the books which is still under Alison Gill's purview (never heard of this person in my life before, tbh), and brand new team to handle marketing and promotion. In total, 7 people have been laid off, none of which are Didio or Lee, who are still co-publishers, and especially not the President of WB Brands, Lifford (she's also the one in actual charge of DC and likely the one who initiated this whole restructuring). So all in all, it means absolutely nothing. 

Everything that's been problematic for us before is likely to be a problem in the future. However, the memo revealing all this promises that DC is returning to its "roots," which is almost comical since it's only been 3 years since the last time that was promised, and it certainly didn't last all that long. Maybe they'll follow through in the short-term (i.e. a Rebirth-style relaunch in fall), or maybe it means absolutely nothing (I mean, even in this scenario we could get a relaunch, it'd just mean the push for it is unrelated to the restructuring). I definitely don't think it'll last in the long-term with the same higher-ups as when DC was supposedly deviating from their "roots" lol.

----------


## yohyoi

DiDio is not immortal. Future Nightwing fans will read of the dark times. They will wonder how we kept going on.

----------


## nightbird

> Maybe that Nightwing fan WB exec we've been hoping for has finally arrived to right the ship.


That’s a dead wish at this point to us lol

----------


## oasis1313

> Only the structure has changed, it's been streamlined into three separate groups. I don't quite care enough to remember their names, but basically there's the Bob Harras team which is still editorial, a team that actually produces the books which is still under Alison Gill's purview (never heard of this person in my life before, tbh), and brand new team to handle marketing and promotion. In total, 7 people have been laid off, none of which are Didio or Lee, who are still co-publishers, and especially not the President of WB Brands, Lifford (she's also the one in actual charge of DC and likely the one who initiated this whole restructuring). So all in all, it means absolutely nothing. 
> 
> Everything that's been problematic for us before is likely to be a problem in the future. However, the memo revealing all this promises that DC is returning to its "roots," which is almost comical since it's only been 3 years since the last time that was promised, and it certainly didn't last all that long. Maybe they'll follow through in the short-term (i.e. a Rebirth-style relaunch in fall), or maybe it means absolutely nothing (I mean, even in this scenario we could get a relaunch, it'd just mean the push for it is unrelated to the restructuring). I definitely don't think it'll last in the long-term with the same higher-ups as when DC was supposedly deviating from their "roots" lol.


I think a company-side relaunch is the only way to go--and actually put some THOUGHT into it, for once.  The books need to be more family-friendly.  As for Didio surviving yet again . . . it could be worse for Nightwing fans.  Imagine if BENDIS replaced Didio:  We'd never see Dick, Jason, and Damian again.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I think a company-side relaunch is the only way to go--and actually put some THOUGHT into it, for once.  The books need to be more family-friendly.  As for Didio surviving yet again . . . it could be worse for Nightwing fans.  Imagine if BENDIS replaced Didio:  We'd never see Dick, Jason, and Damian again.


I don't think that would be the case. Bendis likes the other members of the Bat family. No the one I would be more worried about is if someone like Tom King got to be Co publisher...

----------


## OBrianTallent

Lifford's comments about returning to the roots of the company is simply a mollification and added words to make the bad have some positive light.  However, there are rumors of potential editorial shake-ups down the line.  Sadly I will agree that hopes of getting Didio and Harras out are furtive at best as they both seem to have quite the foothold in the company.  DC truly needs to get a publisher who sees the value of all it's characters and most importantly it's cornerstones and yes Dick Grayson should most definitely be considered one of it's cornerstone characters.

----------


## WonderNight

> Lifford's comments about returning to the roots of the company is simply a mollification and added words to make the bad have some positive light.  However, there are rumors of potential editorial shake-ups down the line.  Sadly I will agree that hopes of getting Didio and Harras out are furtive at best as they both seem to have quite the foothold in the company.  DC truly needs to get a publisher who sees the value of all it's characters and most importantly it's cornerstones and yes Dick Grayson should most definitely be considered one of it's cornerstone characters.


 Hard for dick to be a cornerstone when he doesn't have his own corner.

----------


## dropkickjake

Honestly I'm not convinced this is actually going to affect the comics themselves. Seems more like an effort to streamline production sales, not mess with the product itself. I'm not sure how people feel about DC comics overall these days, so that could be a good thing or a bad thing. For Dick's sake, I was hoping for something-- anything-- to get shaken up with editorial somehow.

----------


## Ascended

> Imagine if BENDIS replaced Didio:  We'd never see Dick, Jason, and Damian again.


Has Bendis ever said anything negative about the other Robins? Hell, has he ever really spoken of his love for Tim? He's writing Tim because he's writing Young Justice and that's Tim's team, but I've never heard of him saying anything about the other guys.

And even if Bendis is lukewarm to Nightwing and doesn't care for him one way or another, that's a site better than Didio, who actively dislikes the character and would rather see him gone completely.

----------


## Ascended

> I don't think that would be the case. Bendis likes the other members of the Bat family. No the one I would be more worried about is if someone like Tom King got to be Co publisher...


I'd want to see what King had to say about Nightwing. He did good stuff with Grayson, and what he's done with Dick since he took over Batman.....it's King's job to further Bruce's narrative, not Dick's, and since DC treats Dick like a part of Bruce's world rather than an individual IP I can't totally blame King for using a Batman supporting character (in DC's mind) to advance Bruce's story.

----------


## Mataza

Bendis has said Tim is the best Robin tho how much of that is PR talk to hype readers is anyones guess. But i think he loves Robin conceptually as well, and that includes every character to hold the mantle.

----------


## Godlike13

The current Bat office is more of a problem for Dick then Didio if you ask me. While Didio might not being doing Dick any favors, its the people in the Bat office that are responsible for generating and carrying out new ideas for the character. To a degree Didio position's himself as a lightning rod in part to protect those under him.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a20/1901/7a/90a0cf06b23c.jpg[/IMG]

Robins by Peter Nguyen

----------


## nightbird

Is it really that hard to manage 10-14 most important Batfamily members across several books, write to them proper relationships between each other and consistently generate some interesting ideas?

----------


## Pohzee

> Is it really that hard to manage 10-14 most important Batfamily members across several books, write to them proper relationships between each other and consistently generate some interesting ideas?��


There are 10-14 important “Batfamily” members?

----------


## Godlike13

Well 10-14 could get difficult, but really were talking about 4-5. It really shouldn't be this hard to manage the book of probably their second most popular character (within the market) in their office, but unfortunately, and at this point im probably saying this too much, the people responsible for managing his book are not good and don't really want to put in much effort. Nightwing needs out of that office. Just look and the quality and effort a put in to even Red Hood and Batgirl's new directions compared to the shit show that is Nightwing's. Its comical. The Bat office and its editors see Nightwing as a thrash tier character, and his readers undeserving of genuine effort or quality despite 50 issues of support in this markets, on a double ship. At this point it seems like they don't even want his book under their office given the quality of their support. Not even DC's worse producing books are managed like this.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I’d argue that there’s only 6 important Bat family vigilantes.

I don’t think Dick’s coming back until Sept. After the summer event so they can involve NW in new line books

----------


## oasis1313

> I’d argue that there’s only 6 important Bat family vigilantes.
> 
> I don’t think Dick’s coming back until Sept. After the summer event so they can involve NW in new line books


Since Didio has apparently survived the latest corporate purge, I think Dick is mothballed indefinitely.  Since when does DC ever involve Nightwing in anything they can avoid?

----------


## Mataza

> I’d argue that there’s only 6 important Bat family vigilantes.


Not including Bruce?
Dick, Jason, Damian, Tim, Kate, Barbara and who else?

----------


## Konja7

> Not including Bruce?
> Dick, Jason, Damian, Tim, Kate, Barbara and who else?


Is Kate important? 

I mean they tried to sell Batwoman, but her comic has really low sales.

----------


## Mataza

I mean, they are trying to push her like the wonderwoman of gotham. I find a lot of incoherent within her characterization and have discussed this at lenght with caivu. But yeah, The impression i got from Tec is that she is one of the big ones, undeservedly so if you ask me.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Not including Bruce?
> Dick, Jason, Damian, Tim, Kate, Barbara and who else?


Duke? There was a push for him a while ago.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Not including Bruce?
> Dick, Jason, Damian, Tim, Kate, Barbara and who else?


uhhh I meant Bruce,Dick,Jason,Tim,Damian and Barbara. I feel like Tec was the biggest thing that happened to Kate, has she shown up on anything? I don't really see talks about her often.

----------


## byrd156

> Is it really that hard to manage 10-14 most important Batfamily members across several books, write to them proper relationships between each other and consistently generate some interesting ideas?��


It shouldn't when you get paid to do it. I don't and I don't think anyone else on this forum does but everyone seems to keep pulling fun ideas out of thin air. Why can't they do the same?

----------


## oasis1313

> It shouldn't when you get paid to do it. I don't and I don't think anyone else on this forum does but everyone seems to keep pulling fun ideas out of thin air. Why can't they do the same?


The job seems to have some sort of tenure--once you're in the network, you have to do something REALLY awful to get pushed out of it.  Once you're "established" and become a "name", you can always pick up a new gig.  If you're not in The Old Boys Club, you could pitch the comic book equivalent of Victor Hugo and nobody would even bother looking at your proposal.  I hope that our young writers get to meet the bigwigs and break into that clique.

----------


## nightbird

> There are 10-14 important “Batfamily” members?


I stretched number)

----------


## oasis1313

I see the Bat-Family like this (in order of personal importance):
1)  Bat-Cow
2)  Bruce
3)  Alfred
4)  Dick, Jason, Damian (although Dick is not technically a member of the family since he's not adopted or biological).
4)  Ace and Titus
5)  Goliath, Bat-Dragon, Alfred the Cat, and Bat-Turkey

That's it for Family, as far as I'm concerned.  Barbara is a colleague in crime-fighting but not family.

----------


## nightbird

> I see the Bat-Family like this (in order of personal importance):
> 1)  Bat-Cow
> 2)  Bruce
> 3)  Alfred
> 4)  Dick, Jason, Damian (although Dick is not technically a member of the family since he's not adopted or biological).
> 4)  Ace and Titus
> 5)  Goliath, Bat-Dragon, Alfred the Cat, and Bat-Turkey
> 
> That's it for Family, as far as I'm concerned.  Barbara is a colleague in crime-fighting but not family.


Well, Alfred by that logic also technically is not part of the family)

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, Alfred by that logic also technically is not part of the family)


Anyone who shovels that much guano deserves to be Family.

----------


## yohyoi

DC needs to realize DC means DiCk, because Dick is the big reason why their shows are so popular right now. DiDio should be given a long talk and demoted. Put some real talent on Nightwing. Make Nightwing a key player in the DCU. Restore DicKory! Stop with the Ric stupidity and give the people what they want. Ric is selling at 26k; imagine if we get a great Dick series. 50k is a possibility. Nightwing is a good constant seller, but he could be a great constant seller. Come on DC! I know you want our money.

----------


## yohyoi

Come on DC! I'm just buying your streaming service and Nightwing statues. I want comics!

----------


## Konja7

> DC needs to realize DC means DiCk, because Dick is the big reason why their shows are so popular right now. DiDio should be given a long talk and demoted. Put some real talent on Nightwing. Make Nightwing a key player in the DCU. Restore DicKory! Stop with the Ric stupidity and give the people what they want. Ric is selling at 26k; imagine if we get a great Dick series. 50k is a possibility. Nightwing is a good constant seller, but he could be a great constant seller. Come on DC! I know you want our money.


Well, Grayson is a great series, but ended up selling 30K in the last issues of King and Seeley (and the sales would probably have continued to fall).

In the current market, it's pretty difficult to reach 40K im sales (unless you're Batman). Dick will sell 26K regardless the quality, so DC doesn't see a reason to put effort.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing can do better than 26k. Sales are crap, and Ric is not helping. Now even the double ship is gone thanks to Ric and the managing troubles.

----------


## Schumiac

If Dick was a Marvel comics assest we would probably be discussing when his next movie will be... DC movies tend to get criticized for how dark and grim and serious they take themselves (and when they dont they can become too silly) and Dick is a character that would have the perfect balance for that. He is young, fun, charismatic and captivating to drive a story and be relatable, and yet is "realistic" and dark enough to keep things serious and "adult". The success of shows like Titans and Young Justice are proof of Dick's potential (granted, they are ensemble shows and he alone is not the reason for their success but he is a key character in all of them so obviously part of a winning formula) and how he appeals to larger audiences but comics editorials have always failed to see that. Part of the problem is the association with Batman, I think for the Batman office he will never be anything more than Batman-lite and more than that, he is NOT supposed to be anything more than Batman-lite so he is doomed to always be held back. Dick's connection to Batman, that father-son dynamic, and him being in a way the "better" version of Bruce as a person where he got to heal from his trauma (thanks to Bruce, of course) are some of the things that makes the character great IMHO (and in my view adds a lot to Bruce/Batman too), so it is shame that it also serves to undermine him where editorial decisions come to play.

----------


## WonderNight

> If Dick was a Marvel comics assest we would probably be discussing when his next movie will be... DC movies tend to get criticized for how dark and grim and serious they take themselves (and when they dont they can become too silly) and Dick is a character that would have the perfect balance for that. He is young, fun, charismatic and captivating to drive a story and be relatable, and yet is "realistic" and dark enough to keep things serious and "adult". The success of shows like Titans and Young Justice are proof of Dick's potential (granted, they are ensemble shows and he alone is not the reason for their success but he is a key character in all of them so obviously part of a winning formula) and how he appeals to larger audiences but comics editorials have always failed to see that. Part of the problem is the association with Batman, I think for the Batman office he will never be anything more than Batman-lite and more than that, he is NOT supposed to be anything more than Batman-lite so he is doomed to always be held back. Dick's connection to Batman, that father-son dynamic, and him being in a way the "better" version of Bruce as a person where he got to heal from his trauma (thanks to Bruce, of course) are some of the things that makes the character great IMHO (and in my view adds a lot to Bruce/Batman too), so it is shame that it also serves to undermine him where editorial decisions come to play.


dick can still have his relationship and history with bruce and the family, but he shouldn't be living in the past.

Nightwing should not be just one of batman's many sidekick. He should be his own hero with his own corner of the dcu. As long as nightwing is just one of bruce's mini bats this is as good as its going to get for dick. Dick needs to pull a cyborg and graduate to the main generation its the only way forward for dick, the titan generation and batman lite is killing nightwing.

----------


## Vakanai

I'm not reading the comics, so I don't know what's going on, but I keep seeing a *bunch* of hate for this Ric Grayson thing so I thought I'd ask - is the anger just over the attempted name change (which personally I always hated the name 'Dick' and though he should go by Rich or Richie or something) or is there something about whatever story they're telling and the 'Ric' thing is just shorthand for the story arc or direction or whatever? Any info/opinions would be appreciated, thanks.

----------


## Godlike13

He’s no joke a hobo with amnesia right now, running around in filth, crying about how lame Dick was and how no one likes him as he is now. The writing is crap, the ideas are regurgitated failed ideas, and the art is an inconsistent mess with lame out of touch designs. The ‘Ric’ name honestly is one of the least offensive things about this joke of a direction, which is why it doesn’t have a chance in hell.

----------


## Vakanai

> He’s no joke a hobo with amnesia right now, running around in filth, crying about how lame Dick was and how no one likes him as he is now. The writing is crap, the ideas are regurgitated failed ideas, and the art is an inconsistent mess with lame out of touch designs. The ‘Ric’ name honestly is one of the least offensive things about this joke of a direction, which is why it doesn’t have a chance in hell.


Ah, yeah, then why not say Hobo Rick or Amnesia Dick or something? It'd be a lot clearer to those of us not reading the comic why so many fans are upset about this. And I can definitely see why. I wouldn't mind if the Ric name or something stuck, but this storyline sounds effing horrible. Ouch. But if he has amnesia, why would he be crying about how lame Dick was?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ah, yeah, then why not say Hobo Rick or Amnesia Dick or something? It'd be a lot clearer to those of us not reading the comic why so many fans are upset about this. And I can definitely see why. I wouldn't mind if the Ric name or something stuck, but this storyline sounds effing horrible. Ouch. But if he has amnesia, why would he be crying about how lame Dick was?


Because people here only talk among people who already know. They're not talking to other people. So Ric is short and concise enough word to represent the whole thing.

----------


## Godlike13

> Ah, yeah, then why not say Hobo Rick or Amnesia Dick or something? It'd be a lot clearer to those of us not reading the comic why so many fans are upset about this. And I can definitely see why. I wouldn't mind if the Ric name or something stuck, but this storyline sounds effing horrible. Ouch. But if he has amnesia, why would he be crying about how lame Dick was?


I’ve called him Hobo Ric before. Also he cry’s about Dick cause he’s a tool, and because the writers on him are bad and have no clue who their audience is. Lacking the ability to make him sympathetic or even semi-likable. Which one could argue is due to them not actually being invested in him or this direction. 

Story wise for some reason he doesn’t like that there are people who liked Dick, and is bitter that Dick’s friends didn’t immediately just accept who he is now. Though he is utterly delusional as, again, he’s literally a hobo running around in filth. Who breaks into people’s homes to sleep and eat. He’s aware of who he use to be and will bless us with his criticism and commentary. But they’re generic, lazy, criticisms. He is basically just that douchebag that’s too cool for comics and tries to pick them apart using real world sensibilities. Like one issue just opens on him commenting to us how unhealthy the Bat cave is, and for no reason. It’s gutter thrash.

----------


## nightbird

What truly annoys me... that amnesia story in right hands could be potentially interesting and dramatic. In right hands and with right attitude and right passion to the character. If they treated Nightwing being shot in the head as his story, not Batmans. 

Can we have Dick from YJ universe in main universe and ship Ric somewhere else until he remembers who he is? ;(

----------


## oasis1313

> If Dick was a Marvel comics assest we would probably be discussing when his next movie will be... DC movies tend to get criticized for how dark and grim and serious they take themselves (and when they dont they can become too silly) and Dick is a character that would have the perfect balance for that. He is young, fun, charismatic and captivating to drive a story and be relatable, and yet is "realistic" and dark enough to keep things serious and "adult". The success of shows like Titans and Young Justice are proof of Dick's potential (granted, they are ensemble shows and he alone is not the reason for their success but he is a key character in all of them so obviously part of a winning formula) and how he appeals to larger audiences but comics editorials have always failed to see that. Part of the problem is the association with Batman, I think for the Batman office he will never be anything more than Batman-lite and more than that, he is NOT supposed to be anything more than Batman-lite so he is doomed to always be held back. Dick's connection to Batman, that father-son dynamic, and him being in a way the "better" version of Bruce as a person where he got to heal from his trauma (thanks to Bruce, of course) are some of the things that makes the character great IMHO (and in my view adds a lot to Bruce/Batman too), so it is shame that it also serves to undermine him where editorial decisions come to play.


This.  He is purposefully undermined by DC--imagine if the company said, "There's all these crazy Wingnuts out there who want to spend money on Dick Grayson.  Why don't we oblige them--and see if we can't make some MORE of them?"  I feel like Didio's fanboy hatred of a viable asset is hurting Warner Brothers; the time to capitalize on the success of Titans and Young Justice is NOW.

----------


## byrd156

> I’ve called him Hobo Ric before. Also he cry’s about Dick cause he’s a tool, and because the writers on him are bad and have no clue who their audience is. Lacking the ability to make him sympathetic or even semi-likable. Which one could argue is due to them not actually being invested in him or this direction. 
> 
> Story wise for some reason he doesn’t like that there are people who liked Dick, and is bitter that Dick’s friends didn’t immediately just accept who he is now. Though he is utterly delusional as, again, he’s literally a hobo running around in filth. Who breaks into people’s homes to sleep and eat. He’s aware of who he use to be and will bless us with his criticism and commentary. But they’re generic, lazy, criticisms. He is basically just that douchebag that’s too cool for comics and tries to pick them apart using real world sensibilities. Like one issue just opens on him commenting to us how unhealthy the Bat cave is, and for no reason. It’s gutter thrash.


I find that a lot of characters Lobdell turn into *tools* under his pen. I always find it hard to find likable characters in his books.

----------


## oasis1313

> I find that a lot of characters Lobdell turn into *tools* under his pen. I always find it hard to find likable characters in his books.


Didio turns them ALL into tools.

----------


## Ascended

I'm still hoping that Dick gets put back together properly for the big rumored Bat Event this summer. If Dick isn't back in proper shape for the story, I expect him to be for the inevitable relaunch of titles. He's just too damn viable an IP for Didio to get away with running him through the mud forever.

DC probably figures it can get more mileage out of a triumphant return to form (with a shiny new #1 on the cover) spinning out of a big Batman story. And they're probably right, though the sales won't stay strong if they continue to abuse and misuse the character like they have been.

Wasn't there a rumor about new editorial in the Bat office? That might bring a new sensibility to Nightwing. Even if the editors have their hands tied by a mandate from above, if they could find quality talent who can work around those limitations we might yet see a decent Nightwing series before this decade closes.

Might be wishful thinking on my part, but I still cannot imagine this BS treatment lasting long term and Dick is too popular, with too much profit potential proven in larger media, to be thrown out in the cold. Didio may have won a battle and managed to push the book into the dirt, but he won't win the war. Nightwing's too big to be kept down for long.

----------


## dropkickjake

"Are you a man perpetually looking backwards at what he's lost? Or a man looking forward to what he might become?

I literally shouted "*THATS* Dick Grayson!" after that, YJ once again proving that they get this character.

Can Greg take over the Bat Office? I mean, just for creative direction?

----------


## Jackalope89

> "Are you a man perpetually looking backwards at what he's lost? Or a man looking forward to what he might become?
> 
> I literally shouted "*THATS* Dick Grayson!" after that, YJ once again proving that they get this character.
> 
> Can Greg take over the Bat Office? I mean, just for creative direction?


I'd love for Greg to take over the whole comics section, truth be told.

----------


## Ascended

> I'd love for Greg to take over the whole comics section, truth be told.


Same. I'd gladly take him as chief creative officer, but I'd settle for him just writing a title too. We know he's got the skillset required for either position, and he seems to have a strong vision for the entire DCU, and even with individual writers working within the framework established by the CCO, a single, unifying vision is something DC has rarely seen in recent years.

But getting Weisman on a Nightwing solo? That's something to kill for.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Hey, don't undersell Brandon Vietti. The man is amazing too, it's how we got what is arguably still the best DC DTV movie: Under the Red Hood. I mean, Weisman wrote up an entire blog post talking about how Vietti is the smartest man in the room even when he's around lmao.

Also there's been lots of setup for Dick-led stories for the next half of Outsiders so I'm personally excited.
*spoilers:*
it looks like we're getting a version of the Judas Contract, which is going to be great now that it'll be from Brion's perspective instead of Gar's. The season started off by pairing Conner and Brion off, but by the end it was clear that Brion is more Dick's protege than anyone else's. That past vs. future thing was crazy impactful, it took every instance of Dick preaching patience and revealed its importance: Dick saw his 9 year old self in Brion and that's such a great way to tie up Dick and Brion's arcs for this half of the season. Moving forward, it makes me really think the Judas Contract story in this universe is going to be a Dick/Brion story and we'll see them face off against Slade and Tara which is definitely exciting.

The promo posters for this season have been positioning Dick and Conner parallel to Vandal and Darkseid, respectively. This half didn't do too much to further that comparison, but with the "Anti-Light" active and Dick himself being the first of the modern day sidekicks over 11 years ago, it compares very interestingly with Vandal's origin as the first metahuman and hero, as well as leader of the Light. Might be more of a Season 4 thing, but we'll have to see how quickly we get through Terra and get to Darkseid. 

Besides all that, it sounds like Brion, Tara, Violet, and Forager are all joining the Team, along with Gar's return. It'd make sense for Vic to go along as well, in which case we might see Dick finding a new group of metahumans in the meantime, I mean they've already teased Cisco (Vibe) and Slobo. It's starting to look like Dick's actual goal of taking down metahuman trafficking rings has never changed, but the current kids he's been training have always been meant to be recruited to the Team. Might mean he'll be a recruiter and, more importantly, a trainer for the Team on the side (that is until stuff like Terra's betrayal and stuff plays out and it leads to all the new characters officially joining up with Dick as the Outsiders?), which incidentally lines up somewhat with Lady Shiva's role in the League of Shadows. I doubt we'll get anything there, but it's always interesting to see all the parallels. Brion not being ready to take on the League of Shadows is something Dick has said many times in the first half of the season, would be very cool to see Dick's recruits taking out Lady Shiva-trained ninjas as part of this universe's take on the Judas Contract.

One little thing, we got Harper Row introduced and unlike some of her appearances written by Snyder and Tynion, she's very likable this time around. If she does become Bluebird, it's more likely because she'll be related to Nightwing more than Batman in this universe, since she lives on Happy Harbor (and is friends with Dick's recruits), instead of Gotham. Tim was his one-time protege in this universe, but Dick's never had a young partner before. Would be a lot of fun to see him train this version of Harper.

Last thing, from early on we were teased with Metamorpho and Katana on Nightwing's team. Might've been inaccurate and only meant to show off their designs, but I'm still not ruling out something happening to Batman soon. Bane looked pretty upset last we saw him, and we also have Darkseid coming soon so the potential for that is also there. Not expecting it, but I do think the possibility of Batman Inc. and Nightwing's team coming together to form Dick's own organization called the Outsiders is a very exciting prospect.

Edit: Completely forgot that they have Jason already around for some sort of Red Hood story, maybe next season tho. Excited for that as well.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Jackalope89

> Hey, don't undersell Brandon Vietti. The man is amazing too, it's how we got what is arguably still the best DC DTV movie: Under the Red Hood. I mean, Weisman wrote up an entire blog post talking about how Vietti is the smartest man in the room even when he's around lmao.


Okay, fair enough. Both of those guys need to be in charge of DC as a whole.

----------


## Schumiac

> dick can still have his relationship and history with bruce and the family, but he shouldn't be living in the past.
> 
> Nightwing should not be just one of batman's many sidekick. He should be his own hero with his own corner of the dcu. As long as nightwing is just one of bruce's mini bats this is as good as its going to get for dick. Dick needs to pull a cyborg and graduate to the main generation its the only way forward for dick, the titan generation and batman lite is killing nightwing.


Indeed... But DC is too asinine to realize that...

The problem isnt Titans. They suffer the same way Dick does, from DC's conservatism and need for  hiearchy where they are not allowed to grow and move out of the shadow of their mentors. Made sense for "teen" titans to have supervision as they were still young, Titans on the other hand are ADULT heroes who have been doing what they do far longer than many of the other heroes in DCU and know what they do and are good at it. They don't need supervision. They don't need to be controlled by JLA, they most certainly should not be getting "shut down" by JLA. How JLA is allowed to bully Titans is outrageous really. Marvel, for ages has been able to have multiple superhero teams running around, not one a subordinate to the other one, all their independent identity, doing their own thing because there is enough villlains in the universe and in the world for all... But DC needs JLA to be the "mightiest of it all and the special selective superhero club one gets promoted to". I would so cherish a story where the Titans handed the JLA their collective asses next time they show up to bully them, to signal a new era for DC where the "younger generation" is allowed to shine and be independent and will be treated with respect. But alas... 

The problem at its core is DC not knowing what to do with the original sidekicks and their generation because they arent creative enough and they are too stuck in their own old ways. They are wasting all these characters they have which anyone with half a mind would have put to good use by now and made money out off as oasis1313 has pointed out. For DC they are mostly "kill/hurt for shock value/drama" toons it seems. and once in a while they are brought back to appease the fanbase and then discarded again. Dick has relatively gotten better treatment, most probably thanks to how big a fan base he has and how well established he is, but even he cant escape the horrid treatment of Dc editorial...

----------


## Schumiac

> I'm not reading the comics, so I don't know what's going on, but I keep seeing a *bunch* of hate for this Ric Grayson thing so I thought I'd ask - is the anger just over the attempted name change (which personally I always hated the name 'Dick' and though he should go by Rich or Richie or something) or is there something about whatever story they're telling and the 'Ric' thing is just shorthand for the story arc or direction or whatever? Any info/opinions would be appreciated, thanks.


Ric story beig horrid aside...

A 20+ years old adult is not likely to one day wake up and decide he should be called something else from now on so I would rage about any attempt to change "Dick"s name, and see it as another attempt by DC to screw over Dick. He is "Dick Grayson", that is the "brand", cant be changed. I am fine with some characters preferring to call him with his full name, "Richard", that is about it. But if someone like Bruce who always called him Dick all of a sudden started calling him Richard that would also be very much off.

And on a more personal basis, the names Rich and Richie esp grate. They sound like the names of a rich spoiled kid. Probably because both make me think of Richie Rich... so yeah, please lets not give DC ideas... lol

----------


## oasis1313

I think a lot of problems relate to DC's not being able to get past its "Trinity".  Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are NOT all universally beloved by everyone; some people just don't care but they could be hooked by something else.  Everything does not HAVE to spring-boarded off these three characters.  Maybe DC should just GIVE the Nightwing copyright to Marvel.  Why not?  Maybe Marvel might want his fans' money.  Notice I didn't say "sell" the copyright to Marvel--because obviously DC thinks it's a worthless concept.  It wouldn't guarantee better treatment for Dick, but what has he got to lose at this point?  Of course it would never happen, but it bears thinking about for a couple of minutes maybe.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I think a lot of problems relate to DC's not being able to get past its "Trinity".  Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are NOT all universally beloved by everyone; some people just don't care but they could be hooked by something else.  Everything does not HAVE to spring-boarded off these three characters.  Maybe DC should just GIVE the Nightwing copyright to Marvel.  Why not?  Maybe Marvel might want his fans' money.  Notice I didn't say "sell" the copyright to Marvel--because obviously DC thinks it's a worthless concept.  It wouldn't guarantee better treatment for Dick, but what has he got to lose at this point?  Of course it would never happen, but it bears thinking about for a couple of minutes maybe.


Greg Weisman, Brandon Vietti, and Geoff Johns (producer for Titans) like him. And the former two have done the best Nightwing in some time with Young Justice.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think a lot of problems relate to DC's not being able to get past its "Trinity".  Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are NOT all universally beloved by everyone; some people just don't care but they could be hooked by something else.  Everything does not HAVE to spring-boarded off these three characters.  Maybe DC should just GIVE the Nightwing copyright to Marvel.  Why not?  Maybe Marvel might want his fans' money.  Notice I didn't say "sell" the copyright to Marvel--because obviously DC thinks it's a worthless concept.  It wouldn't guarantee better treatment for Dick, but what has he got to lose at this point?  Of course it would never happen, but it bears thinking about for a couple of minutes maybe.


Because the trinity brings in the money! Honestly outside of dick, Wally and maybe Roy what money does the fab 5 being in?

----------


## oasis1313

> Greg Weisman, Brandon Vietti, and Geoff Johns (producer for Titans) like him. And the former two have done the best Nightwing in some time with Young Justice.


They probably wouldn't take the pay cut from TV to funnybooks.

----------


## oasis1313

> Because the trinity brings in the money! Honestly outside of dick, Wally and maybe Roy what money does the fab 5 being in?


If someone tried to make them look good instead of sabotaging them--Wolfman and Perez proved it could be done.

----------


## nightbird

> Because the trinity brings in the money! Honestly outside of dick, Wally and maybe Roy what money does the fab 5 being in?


If you don’t use characters, how they suppose to bring you money? Everyone loves Donna in Titans. Because she is awesome there. Then you look at her comicbook counterpart... and she is just a mess there. Because writers for decades misused her and turned her origin story into something... strange.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a29/1901/63/d2c615f9b383.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a10/1901/ac/1f3d96ec36d6.jpg[/IMG]

http://docgold13.tumblr.com/post/182...uick-nightwing

----------


## WonderNight

> If you don’t use characters, how they suppose to bring you money? Everyone loves Donna in Titans. Because she is awesome there. Then you look at her comicbook counterpart... and she is just a mess there. Because writers for decades misused her and turned her origin story into something... strange.


I know that, but that doesn't answer why DC should start caring about a group of lite versions of there most popular  characters. It makes more sense to direct that focus to characters like vixen or vibe or booster gold.

What reason should DC START caring about the fab 5 in 2019?

----------


## Badou

Man, Young Justice is just so good. Such a great version of Dick's character. It is by far my favorite other media adaptation of the character I've ever seen and I don't think another version really comes that close. The growth the character has had since season one, all of his deep connections within the DCU, and how he actually feels like a capable hero is so refreshing. It is clear that the YJ creators really are passionate about the character and showing how they evolve as heroes in a realistic way.

----------


## RedBird

francishsie

----------


## nightbird

> I know that, but that doesn't answer why DC should start caring about a group of lite versions of there most popular  characters. It makes more sense to direct that focus to characters like vixen or vibe or booster gold.
> 
> What reason should DC START caring about the fab 5 in 2019?


I have better question. Why shouldn’t they. If Fab 5 that useless and they don’t bring any profit especially compared to Vixen and Booster Gold, then they should stop using them at all. But DC simply can’t. Because Fab 5 have their own charms that bring fans. It’s not their problem that DC can’t manage and give equal opportunities to all their generations of heroes and embrace their history instead of trying to hide it.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a42/1901/3f/d3f2b4a891c6.jpg[/IMG]

http://arabian-batboy.tumblr.com/pos...-and-you-never

Dick and Dami

----------


## dietrich

http://laquilasse.tumblr.com

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a42/1901/3f/d3f2b4a891c6.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> http://arabian-batboy.tumblr.com/pos...-and-you-never
> 
> Dick and Dami


This so adorable

----------


## nightbird

> This so adorable


Ikr. I miss my D&d interactions.

----------


## yohyoi

> I know that, but that doesn't answer why DC should start caring about a group of lite versions of there most popular  characters. It makes more sense to direct that focus to characters like vixen or vibe or booster gold.
> 
> What reason should DC START caring about the fab 5 in 2019?


Shipping Dick and Diana should be a sin. She isn't even a redhead.

----------


## Godlike13

Plus the bro code with Donna.

----------


## Drako

> I have better question. Why shouldn’t they. If Fab 5 that useless and they don’t bring any profit especially compared to Vixen and Booster Gold, then they should stop using them at all. But DC simply can’t. Because Fab 5 have their own charms that bring fans. It’s not their problem that DC can’t manage and give equal opportunities to all their generations of heroes and embrace their history instead of trying to hide it.


i'm sure that even in the current state Titans are in right now, they would sell more than Vixen and Vibe

----------


## Ascended

> Because the trinity brings in the money! Honestly outside of dick, Wally and maybe Roy what money does the fab 5 being in?


Outside of those three? Not much really. Donna has been a mess ever since a writer mistook her for an original character instead of a young Diana, and Garth never amounted to much either. Of course, the profitable Fab5 represent more than half of the group which isn't a bad ratio. And the real potential in many of the Titans is as Titans, not as individual IP's.

But you might as well ask why anyone ever bothers with the Martian Manhunter, or Aquaman (before Johns got ahold of him). Or Wonder Woman; for a big chunk of Diana's modern history her title didn't make much money at all and DC kept it going simply because they had to in order to retain the rights to her character. J'onn has never been able to support himself, and Aquaman's history was extremely hit-or-miss until recently.

Its not just about raw profit. There's far more to it than just that; there's brand recognition and expectation, among other things, and in that regard Dick (and Wally and the other Titans) have value. It is expected that the DCU have these characters and fans are never satisfied when they're gone. Sh*t man, Titans has been utter crap for years and it's still a consistent mid-level seller. Any other book without such a A-grade pedigree would've collapsed under low sales, but the brand power of the Titans keeps it not just alive, but healthy. It takes drastically poor quality to bring the sales on Titans down to a level where cancellation is a concern, and the book pops right back up again almost as soon as the final issue hits, right back to its consistent sales....until poor management drives it down again. 




> I know that, but that doesn't answer why DC should start caring about a group of lite versions of there most popular  characters. It makes more sense to direct that focus to characters like vixen or vibe or booster gold.
> 
> What reason should DC START caring about the fab 5 in 2019?


What reason? Geez, how many do you want? I dont think it requires any explanation that Wally is still popular and viable. The "Mark Waid years" are generating money in trade sales even though Wally's been mistreated and out of the Flash role for a full decade, and Wally still has a strong fanbase. Nightwing......f**k, Dick Grayson has one of the highest sales floors in the entire industry, near as I can tell. Look at how bad the book has been lately; any other title would've been cancelled due to low sales by this point, yet Nightwing is still a solid mid-level seller. It takes a whole lot of effort to make a Nightwing book sell so bad it plummets down the charts. And even when the name, costume, and all the other trappings that make up his brand value are removed (Im talking the Grayson series) Dick still sells consistently. It doesnt take a business expert to see that the foundation is solid and could be built on with a little TLC. Seriously, six months of quality effort would see sales start to increase and if DC played it right there's no telling where the sales ceiling could end up.

But if you need a simple reason; I have two. Right now the biggest streaming original shows are Young Justice and Titans. Considering the amazing OG shows on Netflix and Hulu, that's saying something. Clearly, there's an audience out there for the Titans generation and other related characters. If DC doesn't want to even try to capitalize on that, it proves only that their managing efforts are skewed, nothing else.

----------


## nightbird

Titans basically YA version of superheroes. That type of stories and characters would always have their fanbase. The fact that all that characters “lite” version of bigger characters the drama and story of their own. It’s sad that DC and some others refuse to see a potential here, when actual interest from their fanbase shows otherwise. 

I don’t know why DC so afraid to show that everyone has their own little family and legacy.

----------


## oasis1313

> I have better question. Why shouldn’t they. If Fab 5 that useless and they don’t bring any profit especially compared to Vixen and Booster Gold, then they should stop using them at all. But DC simply can’t. Because Fab 5 have their own charms that bring fans. It’s not their problem that DC can’t manage and give equal opportunities to all their generations of heroes and embrace their history instead of trying to hide it.


Booster has always been a failed character; hidden books fold every time they’ve tossed out there.  Vixen, just another animal-girl like Wolfsbane, Feral, Cheetah, whatever.  I don’t even know who Vibe is.  It always amazes me that they get better treatment than Dick Grayson.

----------


## Ascended

> I don’t know why DC so afraid to show that everyone has their own little family and legacy.


It seems to me that upper management believes that DC should have two generations; the League and their kid sidekicks. Any other generation gets in the way. 

From what Didio has said about Dick and the NTT generation, he's afraid that showing these characters as capable, adult heroes forces a unattractive level of age on the League generation (which are the bigger, more profitable IP's). That's likely the same reason why the JSA has been undersold under Didio; he believes a hero should be in his prime, not an old person. 

How management can actually maintain this opinion when there are decades of popular stories showing the falsehood of it is beyond me, however. 

I dont get how someone who doesn't like generational legacies of heroes can be in charge at a company built on legacy and generational heroes, but that's what we have.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a38/1901/d5/2b1adef9a7a2.jpg[/IMG]

https://wwprice1.tumblr.com/post/182...y-paul-azaceta

Batman and Robin by Paul Azaceta

----------


## nightbird

> It seems to me that upper management believes that DC should have two generations; the League and their kid sidekicks. Any other generation gets in the way. 
> 
> From what Didio has said about Dick and the NTT generation, he's afraid that showing these characters as capable, adult heroes forces a unattractive level of age on the League generation (which are the bigger, more profitable IP's). That's likely the same reason why the JSA has been undersold under Didio; he believes a hero should be in his prime, not an old person. 
> 
> How management can actually maintain this opinion when there are decades of popular stories showing the falsehood of it is beyond me, however. 
> 
> I dont get how someone who doesn't like generational legacies of heroes can be in charge at a company built on legacy and generational heroes, but that's what we have.


Didio and his infamous projection of his own phobias on readers lol 

Heroes having families made me first start to read DC comics, when I stopped getting excited with Marvel stuff. Like their so much possibilities for characters grow and meaningful interaction that’s impossible in Marvel universe. I don’t know how blind you have to be to see it as your weakness instead of strength.

----------


## Ascended

> Didio and his infamous projection of his own phobias on readers lol 
> 
> Heroes having families made me first start to read DC comics, when I stopped getting excited with Marvel stuff. Like their so much possibilities for characters grow and meaningful interaction thats impossible in Marvel universe. I dont know how blind you have to be to see it as your weakness instead of strength.


I try not to hold it against management too much. We all have our biases that blind us, after all. I don't believe that anyone at DC actually has harmful intent; they're all doing their best to make the company as a whole profitable, and IP's that get sidelined or abused are done for the greater good (in the minds of management at least). No one wants to let money slip past them. Otherwise they'll be out of work. However, I disagree sharply on how they go about many things. Obviously.

What I do take great issue with is letting those biases get in the way of good business. That is never acceptable. Now, I dont know the ins-and-outs of the publishing industry, much less the quirks unique to DC. But I do know enough about business to recognize what I believe are negative trends and bad business choices. I could be wrong of course; those quirks unique to industry and company might spin what I think I know on its head. For all I know, maybe Nightwing doesn't have the brand potential I think it does and mid-tier sales dependent on ties to Batman are as good as it'll actually get. I dont believe so though. I think what we're seeing is straight up bad business.

If I didn't know better Id suspect that management is afraid that a successful Nightwing would become competition for Batman, rather than the complimentary product they currently see him as.

----------


## Schumiac

> It seems to me that upper management believes that DC should have two generations; the League and their kid sidekicks. Any other generation gets in the way. 
> 
> From what Didio has said about Dick and the NTT generation, he's afraid that showing these characters as capable, adult heroes forces a unattractive level of age on the League generation (which are the bigger, more profitable IP's). That's likely the same reason why the JSA has been undersold under Didio; he believes a hero should be in his prime, not an old person. 
> 
> How management can actually maintain this opinion when there are decades of popular stories showing the falsehood of it is beyond me, however. 
> 
> I dont get how someone who doesn't like generational legacies of heroes can be in charge at a company built on legacy and generational heroes, but that's what we have.



Oh that age thing... Will never ever get that. Comics are horrid with ages and can "deage" their characters as they like and fans usually don't mind age/time stuff much and can shrug some of it off unless it is so outrageous that the continuity and stories don't make sense at all anymore... Guess Didio believes if you are over 35 you are done for in this world so cant have the trinity even considered to be in their 40s? The funny thing is, technically these characters already aged as original kid sidekicks ARE adults now... It hasn't been the end of the world. The sidekicks being mid-20s makes their mentors around mid-40s at most. Hardly what I would call "old".  Bruce can go on beating Bane and Joker for the millionth time as a 40-odd years old adult man as Dick is off doing his own ass-kicking as a 20-something years old. They arent mutually exclusive... And I think sidekicks growing up actually opens up new storylines for their mentors and keeps them more dynamic, so in a way can rejuvenate them...

The fact that DC's top heroes was able to have kid proteges and raise them as capable heroes is one of the things unique about DC and give it its strength, makes the reader more personally involved with them and relate to them more, it humanizes the heroes. They will talk about how Robin was introduced to make kids identify with him and feel like they were going along on Batman's adventures themselves (and what a great idea it was and how it worked so well)... Guess what DC, readers grow up, and they want to see the heroes they identified with and loved so dearly grow and make it in the world too.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Oh that age thing... Will never ever get that. Comics are horrid with ages and can "deage" their characters as they like and fans usually don't mind age/time stuff much and can shrug some of it off unless it is so outrageous that the continuity and stories don't make sense at all anymore... Guess Didio believes if you are over 35 you are done for in this world so cant have the trinity even considered to be in their 40s? The funny thing is, technically these characters already aged as original kid sidekicks ARE adults now... It hasn't been the end of the world. The sidekicks being mid-20s makes their mentors around mid-40s at most. Hardly what I would call "old".  Bruce can go on beating Bane and Joker for the millionth time as a 40-odd years old adult man as Dick is off doing his own ass-kicking as a 20-something years old. They arent mutually exclusive... And I think sidekicks growing up actually opens up new storylines for their mentors and keeps them more dynamic, so in a way can rejuvenate them...
> 
> The fact that DC's top heroes was able to have kid proteges and raise them as capable heroes is one of the things unique about DC and give it its strength, makes the reader more personally involved with them and relate to them more, it humanizes the heroes. They will talk about how Robin was introduced to make kids identify with him and feel like they were going along on Batman's adventures themselves (and what a great idea it was and how it worked so well)... Guess what DC, readers grow up, and they want to see the heroes they identified with and loved so dearly grow and make it in the world too.


At least Greg and Brandon get it with Young Justice. They even had some fun with it when Dick said the exact same thing Bruce did way back in season 1. 

Further proof they should be in charge of DC Comics proper.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> From what Didio has said about Dick and the NTT generation, he's afraid that showing these characters as capable, adult heroes forces a unattractive level of age on the League generation (which are the bigger, more profitable IP's). That's likely the same reason why the JSA has been undersold under Didio; he believes a hero should be in his prime, not an old person.


His hangup with age really doesn't make any sense. it's not as if either group is going to ever age up out of their vague, respective mid 30s (Bruce's) or mid 20s (Dick's) range _anyway_. So why not just write them as capable 20 somethings and the JL as capable 30 somethings?

If he has an issue with making the JL seem older, the company probably shouldn't have allowed a new generation to be built around Damian including a son for Superman. That strikes me as being more problematic for making the older heroes look old than Dick's generation. Dick was college aged when Bruce was in his vague early 30s back in the 1980s, why is adding a couple more years onto Dick and pretty much keeping him there suddenly going to create a problem?

----------


## oasis1313

> I try not to hold it against management too much. We all have our biases that blind us, after all. I don't believe that anyone at DC actually has harmful intent; they're all doing their best to make the company as a whole profitable, and IP's that get sidelined or abused are done for the greater good (in the minds of management at least). No one wants to let money slip past them. Otherwise they'll be out of work. However, I disagree sharply on how they go about many things. Obviously.
> 
> What I do take great issue with is letting those biases get in the way of good business. That is never acceptable. Now, I dont know the ins-and-outs of the publishing industry, much less the quirks unique to DC. But I do know enough about business to recognize what I believe are negative trends and bad business choices. I could be wrong of course; those quirks unique to industry and company might spin what I think I know on its head. For all I know, maybe Nightwing doesn't have the brand potential I think it does and mid-tier sales dependent on ties to Batman are as good as it'll actually get. I dont believe so though. I think what we're seeing is straight up bad business.
> 
> If I didn't know better Id suspect that management is afraid that a successful Nightwing would become competition for Batman, rather than the complimentary product they currently see him as.


How WOULD we know better?  If Nightwing ever got the promotion that even, say, Harper Row has, he could become much more competitive--DC would have to change its adored "Trinity" to "The Big Four", or "The Quartet" or something.

----------


## Ascended

> His hangup with age really doesn't make any sense. it's not as if either group is going to ever age up out of their vague, respective mid 30s (Bruce's) or mid 20s (Dick's) range _anyway_. So why not just write them as capable 20 somethings and the JL as capable 30 somethings?
> 
> If he has an issue with making the JL seem older, the company probably shouldn't have allowed a new generation to be built around Damian including a son for Superman. That strikes me as being more problematic for making the older heroes look old than Dick's generation. Dick was college aged when Bruce was in his vague early 30s back in the 1980s, why is adding a couple more years onto Dick and pretty much keeping him there suddenly going to create a problem?


It does seem an odd thing to worry about, especially for the people who allowed Damian to become a thing. And age in comics never make sense in the first place. Worrying about age is something for nerds on message boards, not managers running a entertainment company. Let us worry about stupid details like that, which will never be a factor or consideration or make sense in the first place. The people in the offices have more to worry about than Bruce Wayne looking old by comparison. 

And really, Tom Brady is about to go to yet another Super Bowl at the age of 40. If he can do that, Bruce can be Batman at the same age. Batman makes no gods damn sense in the first place; in the real world he would've died his first week in the cowl. So why is it such a big gods damn deal if he's older than 30?

----------


## bearman

Marvel seems to do a better job with this issue, or they are less concerned.
The original X Men are still in business, plus the New Mutants, the Generation X, the new X Men, and the new Generation X, and they all seem to co exist comfortably.

----------


## oasis1313

> It does seem an odd thing to worry about, especially for the people who allowed Damian to become a thing. And age in comics never make sense in the first place. Worrying about age is something for nerds on message boards, not managers running a entertainment company. Let us worry about stupid details like that, which will never be a factor or consideration or make sense in the first place. The people in the offices have more to worry about than Bruce Wayne looking old by comparison. 
> 
> And really, Tom Brady is about to go to yet another Super Bowl at the age of 40. If he can do that, Bruce can be Batman at the same age. Batman makes no gods damn sense in the first place; in the real world he would've died his first week in the cowl. So why is it such a big gods damn deal if he's older than 30?


You're right--quibbling over exact ages of ageless comic book characters isn't really workable.  Bruce and Dick are actually around 80 years old each.  A month for us is not a month for fictional characters.  If I was in charge at DC, I don't think I'd even go there.  In fifty years, Tim Drake will still be 16 years old--if he's not de-aged further before then.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It does seem an odd thing to worry about, especially for the people who allowed Damian to become a thing. And age in comics never make sense in the first place. Worrying about age is something for nerds on message boards, not managers running a entertainment company. Let us worry about stupid details like that, which will never be a factor or consideration or make sense in the first place. The people in the offices have more to worry about than Bruce Wayne looking old by comparison. 
> 
> And really, Tom Brady is about to go to yet another Super Bowl at the age of 40. If he can do that, Bruce can be Batman at the same age. Batman makes no gods damn sense in the first place; in the real world he would've died his first week in the cowl. So why is it such a big gods damn deal if he's older than 30?


I'd be a lousy manager running an entertainment company, because I'd probably target Tim's generation as the one to get rid of for much the same reasons that DiDio targets Dick's :Stick Out Tongue:  
But I agree that it is ultimately unimportant, and a professional like DiDio should see that. 

And there's plenty of in-story reasons why most of Bruce's generation doesn't look older even if they manage to make it to their early 40s (and that's not old). Clark and Diana have plenty of precedent for not aging at the same rate as the rest of us. They can be 40 and looks like they are in their early 30s indefinitely. Bruce surely has fallen into a few Lazarus pits over the years, use that as a reason for shaving off some physical years. Arthur's Atlantean biology, the speed force, J'onn's a damn martian so who even cares, etc. and down the line.

----------


## TheCape

> I'd be a lousy manager running an entertainment company, because I'd probably target Tim's generation as the one to get rid of for much the same reasons that DiDio targets Dick's 
> But I agree that it is ultimately unimportant, and a professional like DiDio should see that. 
> 
> And there's plenty of in-story reasons why most of Bruce's generation doesn't look older even if they manage to make it to their early 40s (and that's not old). Clark and Diana have plenty of precedent for not aging at the same rate as the rest of us. They can be 40 and looks like they are in their early 30s indefinitely. Bruce surely has fallen into a few Lazarus pits over the years, use that as a reason for shaving off some physical years. Arthur's Atlantean biology, the speed force, J'onn's a damn martian so who even cares, etc. and down the line.


There is a story in Snyder's run where Bruce basically fall in a Dionesium lagoon (basically a Lazarus Pit without the crazy part) that healed all the accumulated wounds over the years, if they want an excuse for Bruce being still in top shape, there is that.

----------


## Ascended

> You're right--quibbling over exact ages of ageless comic book characters isn't really workable.  Bruce and Dick are actually around 80 years old each.  A month for us is not a month for fictional characters.  If I was in charge at DC, I don't think I'd even go there.  In fifty years, Tim Drake will still be 16 years old--if he's not de-aged further before then.


Exactly. I also wonder why this is a worry for this particular age demo (Bruce, Clark, etc). I mean, there's a world of difference between 16 and 26, but not much of a difference between 25 and 35. I'm 37, and aside from a little extra gray in my beard I don't look any different than I did at 27 (other than a few more tattoos and a better haircut). And if I'm in slightly worse shape and can't party quite as hard as I used to, I'm still close enough as to make no difference (and all my clothes still fit). For someone like Bruce, who takes physical health to an extreme, the only difference between 26 and 40 is that the extra experience makes him even more dangerous. 




> How WOULD we know better? If Nightwing ever got the promotion that even, say, Harper Row has, he could become much more competitive--DC would have to change its adored "Trinity" to "The Big Four", or "The Quartet" or something.


Well, we don't really *know* anything. The best we can do is look at the small amount of data available to us, look at what managers and creators say, see what is done with the books in publication, and try to read between the lines. 

But I do find the cancellation of Arrow an interesting foil here. Ollie has been around since the 40's, with several well regarded, defining runs, and a successful tv show that's been on for years. Yet the book has been cancelled (soon to return I'm sure, but cancelled nonetheless). Meanwhile, Dick's book is as bad as I can remember it ever being, and he's still at something like 26K in sales; above the cancellation average, if finally below his usual figures. Perhaps DC really is concerned about Nightwing splitting revenue; he's certainly got more staying power than anyone who isn't Bruce or Clark. But if so.....you need look no further than Harley Quinn to see that you can make a spin-off highly successful but different enough to not be a threat, and Dick has more than enough precedent in his own history to lay the groundwork and direction for it.

None of it makes sense to me, looking at what we can look at. So I can only assume there's nothing more to this than Didio's personal bias.  :Frown:  I'd very much like to be proven wrong, but the words from the man's own mouth are pretty damning, even before you get to Dick's treatment.

----------


## The Kid

I also never understood that argument. Dick is what, in his early to mid 20s. That would make Bruce in his late 30s. Honestly, are there people who really want Batman to be a young man? He works best as someone who's been around for a while and is in his late 30s to 40s. With that, Dick could be anywhere in his 20s and there wouldn't be problem. DC management is so out of touch

----------


## dropkickjake

Also, on the subject of the first generations age, I’ve always felt like worrying about them being too old missed their appeal entirely. Batman isn’t cool because he is a young guy figuring this all out as he goes. He’s cool because he a grizzled veteran who knows what he’s doing. He’s unflappable because he’s seen it all. Superman is cool because he is this majestic... has it together kinda guy. Sure Clark is awkward, but he has adulthood fairly ironed out. 

There’s plenty of room for that, plus dicks generation being competent heroes and still figuring out adult life, plus tim’s Generation approaching the end of high school or early college, plus Damian and Co being kiddos.

I don’t need Batman to be in his kidtwenties. I don’t even want it. I’m not sure anyone does.

----------


## nightbird

> If I didn't know better Id suspect that management is afraid that a successful Nightwing would become competition for Batman, rather than the complimentary product they currently see him as.


I love Bruce just as much as I love Richard, but, yeah, I actually kinda believe this is what’s happening in one way or another. DC artificially holding down Nightwing from being better than Batman both in comics and outside it. There is no reason why character like Nightwing can’t be more than they allowing him to be.

----------


## oasis1313

> I love Bruce just as much as I love Richard, but, yeah, I actually kinda believe this is what’s happening in one way or another. DC artificially holding down Nightwing from being better than Batman both in comics and outside it. There is no reason why character like Nightwing can’t be more than they allowing him to be.


Again, I think Didio's fanboy attitude is to blame for a lot of this.  I've often joked about how gruesomely and thoroughly I would kill Tim off if I was ever in Didio's position, but I could certainly be persuaded otherwise with a nice set of numbers right in front of me.

----------


## nightbird

> Marvel seems to do a better job with this issue, or they are less concerned.
> The original X Men are still in business, plus the New Mutants, the Generation X, the new X Men, and the new Generation X, and they all seem to co exist comfortably.



Well, Marvel basically build their X-men on the idea of teaches and students co-exciting together in one school and mutant kind being next step of evolution, so probably that’s why they’re not afraid (so far) to age core X-men characters (except Magneto and Xavier lol).

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, Marvel basically build their X-men on the idea of teaches and students co-exciting together in one school and mutant kind being next step of evolution, so probably that’s why they’re not afraid (so far) to age core X-men characters (except Magneto and Xavier lol).


Maybe they're just not sweating the small stuff.  Dc tries to put across too much voodoo math.

----------


## nightbird

> Maybe they're just not sweating the small stuff.  Dc tries to put across too much voodoo math.


Well, at least now we know that DC in general terrible at math lol

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, at least now we know that DC in general terrible at math lol


If Didio and Company COULD be rocket scientists, they WOULD be rocket scientists. :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Slim Shady

Man, take a couple of months away and come back to this. Whole thing sounds like a mess, from the writer leaving to the whole amnesia Ric thing. Definitely don’t see myself jumping back on right now. I might try again once Jurgens starts writing but he’s probably just fill in so idk. I feel bad for Nightwing.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Man, take a couple of months away and come back to this. Whole thing sounds like a mess, from the writer leaving to the whole amnesia Ric thing. Definitely don’t see myself jumping back on right now. I might try again once Jurgens starts writing but he’s probably just fill in so idk. I feel bad for Nightwing.


Young Justice Outsiders though, has a great Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> Again, I think Didio's fanboy attitude is to blame for a lot of this.  I've often joked about how gruesomely and thoroughly I would kill Tim off if I was ever in Didio's position, *but I could certainly be persuaded otherwise with a nice set of numbers right in front of me.*


And that's the crux of it.

Creators talk about how the "secret to success" is that they just write the comics they themselves would want to read. That works on that level of the company. But the job of managers is to make profit, not sculpt the DCU into their personal vision of what they want to see. 

If you did suddenly trip your way into a position of authority at DC, I'd expect nothing less from you than to treat Tim fairly. You might not like him, and that's fine, everyone has their personal tastes and favorite (and least favorite) characters. But to sideline Tim, who is proven to be a popular and profitable IP, that would be bad business that would hurt the bottom line. A good manager would say "Well, I don't like Tim, but lots of other people do. So I gotta treat him right whether I like it or not." and then try to find a way to use him that appeals to his fans while welcoming new fans in.

I dont know if DC fears Dick could become competition for Batman. That would be a valid concern, if the market data supports it. You don't want to split your revenue like that, because you just end up losing money, and in Bruce's case, he's used as the metric the entire direct market is built on so I can see why DC would be afraid to risk direct competition. But at the same time, there's so many ways to make Dick stand on his own so he's not seen as competition. I mean, no one considers Superman competition for Bruce, even though Clark is DC's #2 and spent far more time as DC's cash cow than Batman has (to date). Why? Because the IP's are so different; a Super-story is usually nothing like a Bat-story, with different themes, tones, and reader rewards. It's not a difficult job to find a way to bring Dick out of Bruce's shadow enough so that he wouldn't be a direct challenge too.

And if DC is afraid of Dick becoming bigger and better than Batman.....make Batman better! Instead of holding everyone else under the ceiling of the Trinity, raise that ceiling up! Make the Trinity better than they are; that'll make their IP's more valuable and allow other characters room to grow.

----------


## dropkickjake

I'm not really sure I see how a good Nightwing book or even an editorial push for Dick Grayson could hurt Batman. In the current market, I don't see people dropping Batman from their pull list to add Nightwing. I could see them dropping something else maybe, but not Bats.

----------


## oasis1313

> And that's the crux of it.
> 
> Creators talk about how the "secret to success" is that they just write the comics they themselves would want to read. That works on that level of the company. But the job of managers is to make profit, not sculpt the DCU into their personal vision of what they want to see. 
> 
> If you did suddenly trip your way into a position of authority at DC, I'd expect nothing less from you than to treat Tim fairly. You might not like him, and that's fine, everyone has their personal tastes and favorite (and least favorite) characters. But to sideline Tim, who is proven to be a popular and profitable IP, that would be bad business that would hurt the bottom line. A good manager would say "Well, I don't like Tim, but lots of other people do. So I gotta treat him right whether I like it or not." and then try to find a way to use him that appeals to his fans while welcoming new fans in.
> 
> I dont know if DC fears Dick could become competition for Batman. That would be a valid concern, if the market data supports it. You don't want to split your revenue like that, because you just end up losing money, and in Bruce's case, he's used as the metric the entire direct market is built on so I can see why DC would be afraid to risk direct competition. But at the same time, there's so many ways to make Dick stand on his own so he's not seen as competition. I mean, no one considers Superman competition for Bruce, even though Clark is DC's #2 and spent far more time as DC's cash cow than Batman has (to date). Why? Because the IP's are so different; a Super-story is usually nothing like a Bat-story, with different themes, tones, and reader rewards. It's not a difficult job to find a way to bring Dick out of Bruce's shadow enough so that he wouldn't be a direct challenge too.
> 
> And if DC is afraid of Dick becoming bigger and better than Batman.....make Batman better! Instead of holding everyone else under the ceiling of the Trinity, raise that ceiling up! Make the Trinity better than they are; that'll make their IP's more valuable and allow other characters room to grow.


This.  If I was Publisher, I couldn't afford the luxury of indulging my fanboy whims.  I've had a long career in my field and everyone at work considers me to be a professional (I don't share with them that I never outgrew funnybooks); I take a great deal of pride in that fact and I couldn't do less if I ever did anything else.  I would push ALL my editors and creative staff to make the BEST books for ALL characters.  But I would probably pamper Dick and his fans a LITTLE; they deserve it.

----------


## Fergus

Can anyone remind me the issue of nightwing where Ra's calls Dick Detective? Trying to find it but too many issues to search.

----------


## TheCape

> Can anyone remind me the issue of nightwing where Ra's calls Dick Detective? Trying to find it but too many issues to search.


I think that it was in the last 2 issues of his solo series, either #152 or #153.

----------


## Fergus

> I think that it was in the last 2 issues of his solo series, either #152 or #153.


Thank you so  much. I've got my old pile of comics out and didn't know where to start.

----------


## byrd156

> Because the trinity brings in the money! Honestly outside of dick, Wally and maybe Roy what money does the fab 5 being in?


If they were given a book I bet they would make money.

----------


## Pohzee

> If they were given a book I bet they would make money.


What would we call it? Titans Rebirth?

----------


## Ascended

> I'm not really sure I see how a good Nightwing book or even an editorial push for Dick Grayson could hurt Batman. In the current market, I don't see people dropping Batman from their pull list to add Nightwing. I could see them dropping something else maybe, but not Bats.


I'm not sure either, honestly. If they're concerned about competition it might not even be with Bruce, it might be with Ollie or the Squad or who knows what. I don't know how they handle their accounting, or how they combine revenues from editorial groups and/or titles (if they even do) or what.  :Smile:  We can't know how they calculate inter-company competition between products without access to stuff like that. 

It might be an issue where DC is concerned that a high quality Nightwing could become competition with *one* of the Bat-titles, like 'Tec. If fans have a choice between Batman, 'Tec, and a good Nightwing they might very well decide they don't need both Bat books. In which case they'll pick the Bat title they like most, drop the other, and replace it with Dick's book. That's potentially made worse when Bruce has even more series going than those two. 

It might be a matter of pay rates. For all I know, DC pays more for writing Batman than for writing less popular characters, with a flexible page rate for talent based on the IP they're working on as well as their own credentials. If so, then a (random number) 20% drop in 'Tec is going to cost them more money than a 20% increase in Nightwing's sales, since the 'Tec creative team is being paid more but the title is selling less. 

As I've said, I honestly don't know. I'm just theory-crafting. It might very well just be nothing more than Didio or someone else playing favorites.

----------


## oasis1313

It would seem reasonable that a writer should be paid according to how much he/she sells books.  Which would incentivize decent work on ALL titles.

----------


## oasis1313

> What would we call it? Titans Rebirth?


Titans Regurgitated.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

500x_nightwing.jpg
1char.

----------


## Ascended

> It would seem reasonable that a writer should be paid according to how much he/she sells books.  Which would incentivize decent work on ALL titles.


Most publishers pay a page rate based on the creator; their skill, popularity, tenure, speed, exclusivity, etc. But DC may adjust it according to the book the talent is on too. So maybe you're typical page rate is $100 a page, but if you're on Batman you get $120 per page, but only $85 for a Booster Gold solo. After all, Booster won't sell what Batman does, so the talent might get a little less per page to help ensure the title generates a profit. Batman will most definitely turn a profit though, so they can afford to pay more (and it would encourage the best talent to work on the biggest books). I don't imagine DC does that, but I don't know that they don't, either. I've never heard anyone talk about it, but its rare to see professionals talk about their paychecks so who knows? >shrug<

----------


## bearman

There is nothing wrong with the Fab 5 as characters, nor as friends on a team. It’s their position in the DC universe, and how they are handled. For decades, they have had more experience than all but the most senior of the JLA, but must be shown to be incompetent so the Leaguers can show them up.
The Outsiders is a way to address that issue...have them operate as a separate but equivalent task force, with Nightwing and company perfectly comfortable operating outside the JLA charter, but respected as equals.

----------


## nightbird

> And that's the crux of it.
> 
> Creators talk about how the "secret to success" is that they just write the comics they themselves would want to read. That works on that level of the company. But the job of managers is to make profit, not sculpt the DCU into their personal vision of what they want to see. 
> 
> If you did suddenly trip your way into a position of authority at DC, I'd expect nothing less from you than to treat Tim fairly. You might not like him, and that's fine, everyone has their personal tastes and favorite (and least favorite) characters. But to sideline Tim, who is proven to be a popular and profitable IP, that would be bad business that would hurt the bottom line. A good manager would say "Well, I don't like Tim, but lots of other people do. So I gotta treat him right whether I like it or not." and then try to find a way to use him that appeals to his fans while welcoming new fans in.
> 
> I dont know if DC fears Dick could become competition for Batman. That would be a valid concern, if the market data supports it. You don't want to split your revenue like that, because you just end up losing money, and in Bruce's case, he's used as the metric the entire direct market is built on so I can see why DC would be afraid to risk direct competition. But at the same time, there's so many ways to make Dick stand on his own so he's not seen as competition. I mean, no one considers Superman competition for Bruce, even though Clark is DC's #2 and spent far more time as DC's cash cow than Batman has (to date). Why? Because the IP's are so different; a Super-story is usually nothing like a Bat-story, with different themes, tones, and reader rewards. It's not a difficult job to find a way to bring Dick out of Bruce's shadow enough so that he wouldn't be a direct challenge too.
> 
> And if DC is afraid of Dick becoming bigger and better than Batman.....make Batman better! Instead of holding everyone else under the ceiling of the Trinity, raise that ceiling up! Make the Trinity better than they are; that'll make their IP's more valuable and allow other characters room to grow.


Nightwing and Superman sadly not in the same position. DC sometimes make Bruce top dog in expanse of Clark, so what to talk about character that in eyes of DC management just a part of Bat-verse.

I dont know why even writers cant keep some cohensive world with cohensive supporting group of characters for Nightwing books. Its not something that only one writer can accomplish, but when it comes to Nightwing every new writer for some reasons start everything all over.

----------


## Godlike13

Except apparently when in comes to Ric.

----------


## oasis1313

> Most publishers pay a page rate based on the creator; their skill, popularity, tenure, speed, exclusivity, etc. But DC may adjust it according to the book the talent is on too. So maybe you're typical page rate is $100 a page, but if you're on Batman you get $120 per page, but only $85 for a Booster Gold solo. After all, Booster won't sell what Batman does, so the talent might get a little less per page to help ensure the title generates a profit. Batman will most definitely turn a profit though, so they can afford to pay more (and it would encourage the best talent to work on the biggest books). I don't imagine DC does that, but I don't know that they don't, either. I've never heard anyone talk about it, but its rare to see professionals talk about their paychecks so who knows? >shrug<


I'd be curious as to what they're paying Bendis--probably a thousand bucks a panel.  It's not considered polite for anyone, really, to talk about their salary.  I'd definitely link pay to sales to encourage the writers to work for their groceries.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c19/1901/1d/d22d6b915537.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing by Steve Rude

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing and Superman sadly not in the same position. DC sometimes make Bruce top dog in expanse of Clark, so what to talk about character that in eyes of DC management just a part of Bat-verse.
> 
> I don’t know why even writers can’t keep some cohensive world with cohensive supporting group of characters for Nightwing books. It’s not something that only one writer can accomplish, but when it comes to Nightwing every new writer for some reasons start everything all over.


Nobody wants to bother with doing any research into what they're doing.  If I was too lazy to research my recommendations, I'd be laughed out of the practice.

----------


## nightbird

> Nobody wants to bother with doing any research into what they're doing.  If I was too lazy to research my recommendations, I'd be laughed out of the practice.


I don’t know how hard it should be to read prior 10-20 issues.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don’t know how hard it should be to read prior 10-20 issues.


Or even give 15 minutes to WikiDC.

----------


## nightbird

> Or even give 15 minutes to WikiDC.


Well it’s sad to hear, that writers mostly not interested in reading comics written by other writers and to do some basic research beyond what management tells them.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a27/1901/20/674febe528a5.jpg[/IMG]

Nighwting by Kristafer Anka

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtMY7Wqg..._web_copy_link

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a11/1901/dd/67c3865766ea.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtMhM7TB..._web_copy_link

Nightwing and Batgirl

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> There is nothing wrong with the Fab 5 as characters, nor as friends on a team. Its their position in the DC universe, and how they are handled. For decades, they have had more experience than all but the most senior of the JLA, but must be shown to be incompetent so the Leaguers can show them up.
> The Outsiders is a way to address that issue...have them operate as a separate but equivalent task force, with Nightwing and company perfectly comfortable operating outside the JLA charter, but respected as equals.


Just jumping in to say: This. This is what they should've done and what I hope they will do.

----------


## Ascended

> Nightwing and Superman sadly not in the same position. DC sometimes make Bruce top dog in expanse of Clark, so what to talk about character that in eyes of DC management just a part of Bat-verse.


That's not the point. The point is, Clark's books are different enough from Bruce's to not be seen as direct competition. Competition between products is about overlap, where two products fill the same basic niche and scratch the same itch. And in such cases, the products end up fighting for the same customers, to the detriment of the company. I used Clark as an example because his titles aren't like Bruce's, meaning they don't compete against each other. Dick, as a street level Bat-lite style character, could perhaps end up being seen as competition with Bruce if DC actually put any effort into his title and made it quality. But Dick as something different and unique from Bruce isn't competition. In that case, he'd just be another successful IP.

That's if DC thinks Dick could become competition with Bruce in the first place. Which if so, could explain the way they treat and limit him. 




> [IMG]https://c.***********/c19/1901/1d/d22d6b915537.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Nightwing by Steve Rude


Rude is amazing; that's a great image.  :Smile:

----------


## byrd156

Feel like this will be a fun conversation piece.

----------


## Jackalope89

Kind of reminds me that Kara has yet to appear in Young Justice. Considering she's one of the more well known legacy characters and all.

----------


## byrd156

> Kind of reminds me that Kara has yet to appear in Young Justice. Considering she's one of the more well known legacy characters and all.


I wonder how she'll be handled if/when she finally shows up.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I wonder how she'll be handled if/when she finally shows up.


Knowing the creators? Pretty well. After all, they made Artemis Crock, whom in previous versions was a minor villain, into not only a good hero, but a great character.

----------


## byrd156

> Knowing the creators? Pretty well. After all, they made Artemis Crock, whom in previous versions was a minor villain, into not only a good hero, but a great character.


I meant just as what they were going to do. Like her joining the League or team initially.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I meant just as what they were going to do. Like her joining the League or team initially.


Considering she's usually about 15-16 whenever she makes her initial debut, I'd lean towards the Team. Not to mention, she's usually about Jason's age, give or take.

----------


## Frontier

> Feel like this will be a fun conversation piece.


So many different ways of looking at this  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Considering she's usually about 15-16 whenever she makes her initial debut, I'd lean towards the Team. Not to mention, she's usually about Jason's age, give or take.


I was wondering if they might nerf her powers like they did Conner, considering how overpowered a full-Kryptonian on the Team would be, but I guess she would basically just be Blue Beetle and Wonder Girl combined.

----------


## byrd156

> Considering she's usually about 15-16 whenever she makes her initial debut, I'd lean towards the Team. Not to mention, she's usually about Jason's age, give or take.


She's only been Jason's age with the reboot.

----------


## byrd156

> So many different ways of looking at this .
> 
> I was wondering if they might nerf her powers like they did Conner, considering how overpowered a full-Kryptonian on the Team would be, but I guess she would basically just be Blue Beetle and Wonder Girl combined.


I really want to see Conner's reaction to Kara. Would he be jealous of her full power and blood relation to Clark? His reactions would be very cool to explore.

And Dick and Zatanna is a very good pairing. The Vegas stage show ideas is something I really want to read about.

----------


## oasis1313

Such great fan-art.  So Power Girl is like Supergirl, except with a larger chest?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Such great fan-art.  So Power Girl is like Supergirl, except with a larger chest?


A bit older and generally from Earth 2. Pre-Flashpoint, she ended up on Earth 1 due to weird crap. New52, she and Helena Wayne (daughter of Bruce and Selina) ended up on Prime Earth after their's was attacked by Darkseid and a lot of the Justice Society was killed, including the trinity.

----------


## Frontier

> I really want to see Conner's reaction to Kara. Would he be jealous of her full power and blood relation to Clark? His reactions would be very cool to explore.


I wonder if Kara would feel weird around him because he's half-Kryptonian and a clone. 

I'm kind of surprised there's not a lot of an established Supergirl/Superboy dynamic in the comics that I can think of. 



> And Dick and Zatanna is a very good pairing. The Vegas stage show ideas is something I really want to read about.


Romantically, outside Earth-16, I'm not sure I could see it but it would definitely be a fun team-up  :Smile: .

----------


## byrd156

> I wonder if Kara would feel weird around him because he's half-Kryptonian and a clone. 
> 
> I'm kind of surprised there's not a lot of an established Supergirl/Superboy dynamic in the comics that I can think of. 
> 
> Romantically, outside Earth-16, I'm not sure I could see it but it would definitely be a fun team-up .


There's tons of ideas that DC leaves on the table to instead to another Batman book or retread old ground but worse than before.

I wasn't speaking necessarily toward romance but if it happened I wouldn't complain. I want to see more of the showman side of superheroes. Dick should team up with Blue Devil, Deadman, Zattanna, etc.

----------


## Frontier

> There's tons of ideas that DC leaves on the table to instead to another Batman book or retread old ground but worse than before.


I think it's just more that, for one reason or another, Conner and Kara just haven't been around each other that much.

----------


## oasis1313

Man, I miss Dick Grayson.  There just isn't . . . anything . . . . in the comics.  Thank goodness for Dc Streaming.  Decided to go and binge-watch the Titans show.

----------


## byrd156

> Man, I miss Dick Grayson.  There just isn't . . . anything . . . . in the comics.  Thank goodness for Dc Streaming.  Decided to go and binge-watch the Titans show.


I'd rather be beaten with a crowbar than rewatch Titans.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'd rather be beaten with a crowbar than rewatch Titans.


Getting desperate, Byrd.  The cupboard is mighty bare these days.

----------


## byrd156

> Getting desperate, Byrd.  The cupboard is mighty bare these days.


Oh I know, but hey Young Justice is great.

----------


## nightbird

I actually really like Titans version of Dick. For me its also interesting way to take on Dicks journey of becoming Nightwing. 
Its also miles away better than what books offering us for decades now with Dicks Nightwing origin story.

----------


## nightbird

> That's not the point. The point is, Clark's books are different enough from Bruce's to not be seen as direct competition. Competition between products is about overlap, where two products fill the same basic niche and scratch the same itch. And in such cases, the products end up fighting for the same customers, to the detriment of the company. I used Clark as an example because his titles aren't like Bruce's, meaning they don't compete against each other. Dick, as a street level Bat-lite style character, could perhaps end up being seen as competition with Bruce if DC actually put any effort into his title and made it quality. But Dick as something different and unique from Bruce isn't competition. In that case, he'd just be another successful IP.
> 
> That's if DC thinks Dick could become competition with Bruce in the first place. Which if so, could explain the way they treat and limit him. 
> 
> 
> 
> Rude is amazing; that's a great image.


Well I dont think DC is expecting Dick really to outsell or to be a competition to Batman despite some overlapping similarities in storytelling. But their desire to keep Batman the best makes them hold down all Batfamily members and especially Nightwing from surpassing Bruce in someways and giving any thoughts about expanding his potential. 
Maybe Im understanding something wrong.

----------


## Ascended

> Such great fan-art.  So Power Girl is like Supergirl, except with a larger chest?


......no, not really. Power Girl and Supergirl are both Kara Zor-El (or -L), cousin of Superman, Kryptonian survivor. But the origin story (and owning an orange cat) is about all they share. Karen is older, she's got more snark than Kara, more interest in business, she tends to come off as smarter than Kara but that just might be maturity, she's rougher and tougher. She's not just Supergirl grown up, she's her own unique individual. She just happens to share a backstory. And yes, she has a bigger chest.  :Smile: 




> Man, I miss Dick Grayson.  There just isn't . . . anything . . . . in the comics.  Thank goodness for Dc Streaming.  Decided to go and binge-watch the Titans show.


How are you enjoying Titans? I haven't watched it but from what little I've seen I didn't think it would appeal to you.




> Maybe I’m understanding something wrong.


I think you might be taking it too literally, or maybe to too far an extreme. Even if DC fears a quality Nightwing series could be competition within their product lines, I'm sure they don't fear Dick equaling or outselling Bruce. Just maybe Dick pulling enough revenue from one of the other books to make the accountants bitch. Or who knows; I'm not saying competition is the reason behind Dick's mistreatment, I'm just saying it *could* be a consideration. There's only so many reasons that I know of for a company to treat a product like this and I'm just theory crafting.  :Smile:

----------


## Konja7

> I don’t know why even writers can’t keep some cohensive world with cohensive supporting group of characters for Nightwing books. It’s not something that only one writer can accomplish, but when it comes to Nightwing every new writer for some reasons start everything all over.


In general, it's because writers like to write their own story for these characters (with their own support cast) without consider the previous stories. This seems to be the common when a new team takes a comic.

This isn't a problem for big characters like Batman or Supermam, which has a definite supporting cast since pretty early in the story. However, a character like Nightwing will be affected for this.

----------


## Pohzee

It’s because Nightwing’s supporting casts have and always will suck.

His true supporting cast will always be the likes of Bruce, Barbara, Alfred, a Robin, Wally, Starfire, and the likes.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c14/1901/50/6b6c3482c580.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

> In general, it's because writers like to write their own story for these characters (with their own support cast) without consider the previous stories. This seems to be the common when a new team takes a comic.
> 
> This isn't a problem for big for characters like Batman or Supermam, which has a definite supporting cast since pretty early in the story. However, a character like Nightwing will be affected for this.


Well yeah, that’s why I’m saying that writers should work as team, when it comes to writing characters and building the world around them in comics. It’s joined effort that takes time. What would’ve happen to Bats or Supes if every new writer decided to abandon classic characters like Alfred and Lois and introduce every time new butler or new love interest. 
At least editors (imo) should for once do their job, when it comes to Nightwing, and stop giving green light every time to every new writer to whipe up clean without any trace to comeback his supporting characters slot.

----------


## nightbird

> It’s because Nightwing’s supporting casts have and always will suck.
> 
> His true supporting cast will always be the likes of Bruce, Barbara, Alfred, a Robin, Wally, Starfire, and the likes.



They’re not really his supporting cast though ...

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, their Jason's  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

> Ya, their Jason's


I left Roy for Jason there  :Wink:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b01/1901/1f/9eefd17e9ff8.jpg[/IMG]

https://twitter.com/Zarory_ch/status...543706625?s=20

----------


## oasis1313

> How are you enjoying Titans? I haven't watched it but from what little I've seen I didn't think it would appeal to you.


I've considered it well-done.  I didn't think I would like it but if Dick is gonna be somewhere, then so am I.  It was "darker". "edgier", and certainly "sexier" than I would have wished for because I prefer shows I can watch with my kids and grandkids and I feel DC and Marvel should cater to a family audience, but they did right by Dick in several respects.

----------


## Schumiac

At the very least he is competent and is called Dick Grayson. 

2 plusses right there...

----------


## wvchemteach

> Its because Nightwings supporting casts have and always will suck.
> 
> His true supporting cast will always be the likes of Bruce, Barbara, Alfred, a Robin, Wally, Starfire, and the likes.


Through the years there has been Clancy, Amy Rohrbach, Haly's Circus, his roomates in Chicago, the Skullgirls, and the Run-offs. All of them have had potential and in each case when the writer and/or direction changed the characters vanished.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Through the years there has been Clancy, Amy Rohrbach, Haly's Circus, his roomates in Chicago, the Skullgirls, and the Run-offs. All of them have had potential and in each case when the writer and/or direction changed the characters vanished.


Can't forget the Teen Titans from pre-Flashpoint.

----------


## byrd156

> Its because Nightwings supporting casts have and always will suck.
> 
> His true supporting cast will always be the likes of Bruce, Barbara, Alfred, a Robin, Wally, Starfire, and the likes.


Dick's supporting cast is always at it's best when it's other parts of the DCU. Whether their heroes, villains, or supporting characters like Alfred.

----------


## byrd156

> I left Roy for Jason there


Thank god Roy is dead so he can finally be free from him.

----------


## byrd156

> Through the years there has been Clancy, Amy Rohrbach, Haly's Circus, his roomates in Chicago, the Skullgirls, and the Run-offs. All of them have had potential and in each case when the writer and/or direction changed the characters vanished.


I feel like all those casts were great minus the Chicago roomamates. But I would love to see Sonia and Jane (I think that was her name, the little redhead girl) make a comeback.

----------


## bearman

I wasn’t expecting to like “Titans”; the teaser made me certain that the creators were gonna screw up the property.
And it wasn’t the Dick Grayson I was expecting.
He’s angrier, and far more deadly. He kicks major ass, sets himself on fire, impregnates every woman on TV, and then comes over and cooks breakfast for you.
He’s got all five tools.

----------


## wvchemteach

> I wasn’t expecting to like “Titans”; the teaser made me certain that the creators were gonna screw up the property.
> And it wasn’t the Dick Grayson I was expecting.
> He’s angrier, and far more deadly. He kicks major ass, sets himself on fire, impregnates every woman on TV, and then comes over and cooks breakfast for you.
> He’s got all five tools.


While I won't say I'm in love with every single aspect of Titans... Dick and Rachel are probably the best thing about the show.

Young Justice on the other hand seems to combine all the elements that make Dick great.

----------


## Badou

Well with the confirmation that they are basically rebooting the Batman live action movie and starting with a younger Batman that probably kills the Nightwing movie. I didn't think the movie was going to be made anyway, but it feels like it is dead. Maybe Dick will show up in the Batgirl movie, but I don't know.

----------


## byrd156

> Well with the confirmation that they are basically rebooting the Batman live action movie and starting with a younger Batman that probably kills the Nightwing movie. I didn't think the movie was going to be made anyway, but it feels like it is dead. Maybe Dick will show up in the Batgirl movie, but I don't know.


I hope that means we get to see Dick as Robin. I'd rather them build up to Nightwing rather than just do a movie.

----------


## nightbird

> Well with the confirmation that they are basically rebooting the Batman live action movie and starting with a younger Batman that probably kills the Nightwing movie. I didn't think the movie was going to be made anyway, but it feels like it is dead. Maybe Dick will show up in the Batgirl movie, but I don't know.


Nightwing movie was probably dead a long time ago. But I hope we will see Dick at least as Robin in new Bats movie, despite the terrible track record. Matt could be the director who would take an interest to explore relationship between Bruce and his adopted child/children.

But I don’t want Dick to debut as either Nightwing or Robin in Batgirl’s movie.
I don’t need them to turn it into Ant-man and the Wasp dynamic wise.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a06/1901/85/d08bea146760.jpg[/IMG]

Can someone help me? Is this Yasmine Putri’s artwork?

----------


## oasis1313

> Well with the confirmation that they are basically rebooting the Batman live action movie and starting with a younger Batman that probably kills the Nightwing movie. I didn't think the movie was going to be made anyway, but it feels like it is dead. Maybe Dick will show up in the Batgirl movie, but I don't know.


Yeah, I think this will kill whatever is left of the Nightwing movie.

----------


## dropkickjake

Supporting cast is probably the largest drawback of Nightwing as a solo hero being a relatively new concept. There hasn't been a single constant in his solo runs that are his own supporting cast. I think Nightwing needs a classic Geoff Johns treatment, someone to dig into his publication history and build something lasting from it. I'd say the most memorable character from the Dixon era is Clancy; I'd honestly like to see her make a return. She got written off the show, so to speak, by going to med school. I'd like to see her make a return as either a doctor or an EMT or something and return to Dick's supporting cast. 

Might be neat to nab a supporting character from each of his more iconic eras.

Robin-? 
Titans- ?
Dixon- Clancy
DickBats- Damian
Grayson- Skullgirls or Kathy Kane

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a06/1901/85/d08bea146760.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Can someone help me? Is this Yasmine Putris artwork?


Yes it is.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d10/1901/5f/dac2f074bb7f.jpg[/IMG]

http://vhyrel.tumblr.com/post/182439063657/commission

----------


## nightbird

> Yes it is.



Thank you so much) 

She is really amazing artist)))

----------


## byrd156

> Supporting cast is probably the largest drawback of Nightwing as a solo hero being a relatively new concept. There hasn't been a single constant in his solo runs that are his own supporting cast. I think Nightwing needs a classic Geoff Johns treatment, someone to dig into his publication history and build something lasting from it. I'd say the most memorable character from the Dixon era is Clancy; I'd honestly like to see her make a return. She got written off the show, so to speak, by going to med school. I'd like to see her make a return as either a doctor or an EMT or something and return to Dick's supporting cast. 
> 
> Might be neat to nab a supporting character from each of his more iconic eras.
> 
> Robin-? 
> Titans- ?
> Dixon- Clancy
> DickBats- Damian
> Grayson- Skullgirls or Kathy Kane


Having Clancy in a Night Nurse capacity would be pretty sweet.

----------


## oasis1313

> Having Clancy in a Night Nurse capacity would be pretty sweet.


Clancy is a doctor now; she's isn't going to take a pay cut to Night Nurse.  Actually, I'd like some new characters instead of going back to Dixon retreads.  Didn't Clancy call Dick "boyo" a time or two? 

By the way, Byrd, I love this quote you have at the end of your posts:  "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics
I'm so reassured that Darlin' Dan doesn't have this problem.

----------


## byrd156

> Clancy is a doctor now; she's isn't going to take a pay cut to Night Nurse.  Actually, I'd like some new characters instead of going back to Dixon retreads.  Didn't Clancy call Dick "boyo" a time or two? 
> 
> By the way, Byrd, I love this quote you have at the end of your posts:  "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics
> I'm so reassured that Darlin' Dan doesn't have this problem.


Clancy was Irish so she did say boyo from time to time.

Thanks, I love it too.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I mean they said younger Batman but does that mean a 20s Bat? Or maybe a 30s Batman with potential for NW

----------


## byrd156

> I mean they said younger Batman but does that mean a 20s Bat? Or maybe a 30s Batman with potential for NW


I'm assuming vaguely defined Arkham/BTAS style Batman. Where he's 30ish with a solid rogues gallery and still has/had/will have a Robin.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Clancy is a doctor now; she's isn't going to take a pay cut to Night Nurse.  Actually, I'd like some new characters instead of going back to Dixon retreads.  Didn't Clancy call Dick "boyo" a time or two?


I think Byrd was using the phrase "Night Nurse" as term describing her role in the series more than as her profession. Leslie Thompkins filled this "night nurse" role, despite the fact that she was a doctor. There is a similar character in season 1 of daredevil (at least season one... I haven't watched past that).

As for the issue of retreads, I think the fact that Dick has no supporting cast of his own is one of the reasons his book doesn't really stand on its own. When his only relationships that matter are heroes outside of his book (Batgirl, Wally, Bruce, Et c), those relationships can't be fully dictated by Nightwing's creative team (perhaps I'm writing Nightwing and I want Dick and Babs to be in a relationship, but Batgirl's writer isn't down). It also keeps Dick in those other worlds that everyone seems to complain about... "Dick is always getting dragged into the bat-world or the titans world." Well, if every writer jettisons Dick's previous supporting cast Dick will never have a relationship or friendship that matters nearly as much as Bruce/Alfred, Bruce/Gordon, Superman/Jimmy, Spider-Man/MJ, et c, et c, et c.

I'd like to see a creative team take some pieces that worked from previous runs and develop them and make them stick.

----------


## byrd156

> Clancy is a doctor now; she's isn't going to take a pay cut to Night Nurse.  Actually, I'd like some new characters instead of going back to Dixon retreads.  Didn't Clancy call Dick "boyo" a time or two? 
> 
> By the way, Byrd, I love this quote you have at the end of your posts:  "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics
> I'm so reassured that Darlin' Dan doesn't have this problem.


I was saying Night Nurse ala the Marvel Character. She was a trough line character that connected a lot of the Marvel Netflix shows. She would help out injured heroes and what not. Kinda what Tompkins or Alfred is to Batman.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick’s supporting casts are even more disposable then his directions. Which is not a good thing.

----------


## Aahz

> Supporting cast is probably the largest drawback of Nightwing as a solo hero being a relatively new concept. There hasn't been a single constant in his solo runs that are his own supporting cast. I think Nightwing needs a classic Geoff Johns treatment, someone to dig into his publication history and build something lasting from it. I'd say the most memorable character from the Dixon era is Clancy; I'd honestly like to see her make a return. She got written off the show, so to speak, by going to med school. I'd like to see her make a return as either a doctor or an EMT or something and return to Dick's supporting cast. 
> 
> Might be neat to nab a supporting character from each of his more iconic eras.
> 
> Robin-? 
> Titans- ?
> Dixon- Clancy
> DickBats- Damian
> Grayson- Skullgirls or Kathy Kane


I think there were few more in Dixon's run like Amy Rohrbach. 
I oiked that Seeley reused some of the villains from Dixon's run as support characters, unfortunately the next writers ignored them again.

----------


## Godlike13

Not gonna lie, wasn’t a fan of the Runoffs. I could never stand that stupid karate cowboy.

----------


## dropkickjake

Glad I'm not the only one who didnt love them. And then Seeley killed of Giz, probably the only one who could have served a lasting purpose (as Dick's personal oracle).

I might be the only one, but I'd like Dudley Soames back, not as Torque, but as a corrupt detective. Especially in VegasHaven, where he could be bought up by mob money.

----------


## byrd156

> Not gonna lie, wasn’t a fan of the Runoffs. I could never stand that stupid karate cowboy.


I liked the stupid karate cowboy and the Runoffs.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Not gonna lie, wasn’t a fan of the Runoffs. I could never stand that stupid karate cowboy.


Same, even Dick’s new girl at the time. I believed it wasn’t gonna matter after seeey’s run and I was right.

As for supporting cast, I feel like Huntress/Barbara/The Robins have always been Dick’s most consistent supporting cast members.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I liked the stupid karate cowboy and the Runoffs.


Same here. Gave some added color for Bludhaven, and sometimes allies that Dick could ask for help when needed.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Clancy is a doctor now; she's isn't going to take a pay cut to Night Nurse.  Actually, I'd like some new characters instead of going back to Dixon retreads.  Didn't Clancy call Dick "boyo" a time or two? 
> 
> By the way, Byrd, I love this quote you have at the end of your posts:  "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics
> I'm so reassured that Darlin' Dan doesn't have this problem.


I don't consider it retreads. By that definition any popular supporting character would be a retread. Again the problem with Nightwing is every writer wants to make their mark in providing a supporting cast, but then the cast gets jettisoned. This is where editorial needs to step in and state characters X, Y, and Z are part of Nightwing's supporting cast and must be used in addition to any original characters you want to make when a new writer is brought on so that there is finally some sort of consistency.

I would love to see Bridget Clancy as a medical resident in Bludhaven who ends up becoming Dick's Leslie Tompkins and stitches him back together, with the added URST going on. Also have Amy Rohrbach brought in as a counterpoint to Detective Svobada and have Dick having to deal with Amy who is a straight arrow, but who feels uncomfortable working with a vigilante and Svobada who is a little shady, but has no problem working with Dick when it suits her purposes. 

I'd love to see the Run-offs come back with the various members serving as informants for Dick and occasionally suiting up and helping. I would very much see the Skullgirls settled into Bludhaven as sort of rapid response team. So much potential that is wasted.

----------


## Konja7

> As for supporting cast, I feel like Huntress/Barbara/The Robins have always been Dick’s most consistent supporting cast members.


The thing is these characters aren't supporting cast for Dick (except Huntress in Grayson). They are guest stars in Nightwing comics.

In any case, these characters would be considered supporting cast for Batman.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't consider it retreads. By that definition any popular supporting character would be a retread. Again the problem with Nightwing is every writer wants to make their mark in providing a supporting cast, but then the cast gets jettisoned. This is where editorial needs to step in and state characters X, Y, and Z are part of Nightwing's supporting cast and must be used in addition to any original characters you want to make when a new writer is brought on so that there is finally some sort of consistency.
> 
> I would love to see Bridget Clancy as a medical resident in Bludhaven who ends up becoming Dick's Leslie Tompkins and stitches him back together, with the added URST going on. Also have Amy Rohrbach brought in as a counterpoint to Detective Svobada and have Dick having to deal with Amy who is a straight arrow, but who feels uncomfortable working with a vigilante and Svobada who is a little shady, but has no problem working with Dick when it suits her purposes. 
> 
> I'd love to see the Run-offs come back with the various members serving as informants for Dick and occasionally suiting up and helping. I would very much see the Skullgirls settled into Bludhaven as sort of rapid response team. So much potential that is wasted.


Exactly, there are so many skeletons of solid supporting casts that are filled with story potential that are just laying around. Editors feel more like wannabe writers that takeover and disrupt stories for whatever reason. (higher ups, personal bias, etc) Editors need to be the unseen shepherd that helps characters grow.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Exactly, there are so many skeletons of solid supporting casts that are filled with story potential that are just laying around. Editors feel more like wannabe writers that takeover and disrupt stories for whatever reason. (higher ups, personal bias, etc) Editors need to be the unseen shepherd that helps characters grow.


Also I think that some of the better villains need to be dusted off and given more life. Lady Vic, Double Dare, Hella, Sylph, Brutale, Shrike, a nonrapist Tarantula and a few others could really work.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Also I think that some of the better villains need to be dusted off and given more life. Lady Vic, Double Dare, Hella, Sylph, Brutale, Shrike, a nonrapist Tarantula and a few others could really work.


Lady Vic got axed in Teen Titans.

----------


## byrd156

> Lady Vic got axed in Teen Titans.


Who cares? Just ignore it. Every wants looser continuity from what I keep hearing in the forums so why does that matter? Just bring her back and make her a prominent Nightwing villain.

----------


## oasis1313

> Also I think that some of the better villains need to be dusted off and given more life. Lady Vic, Double Dare, Hella, Sylph, Brutale, Shrike, a nonrapist Tarantula and a few others could really work.


Please--not Tarantula.  The thought of her makes me queasy.  Dick deserves better.

----------


## Badou

I kind of feel supporting casts are overrated. It is just a bunch of time wasted trying to make characters that aren't really that interesting feel like they matter. Outside of Batman, Superman and Spider-man does any character have a supporting cast that anyone really cares about? When was the last time anyone really cared about Wolverine's supporting cast? Or Wonder Woman's? Like the ones people care about are characters that have been grandfathered in because they were around for decades when there was nothing really there to compare it to. So trying to give Nightwing a supporting cast where you are trying to copy a formula that these other characters had grandfathered in over decades ago doesn't really work I think. No one is going to care about some random cop characters, a bunch of civilians that are kind of useless, random D list villains, or a love interest that exist for a generic romantic plot. There is nothing that interesting about them when there are so many more comics and stories out in the market now. 

Nightwing has loads of characters to use for supporting role in his stories where you don't have to start from scratch or use the bottom of the barrel level characters each time. You have all the Batman characters from Batgirl, Damian, Tim, Jason, Huntress, Spoiler, and so on. You have all the Titans or Superman characters to use in stories as well. Even other DCU characters that would make for an interesting story. You can use new characters as well, but I don't think you should try to build everything around them. I feel like the Grayson series got it right in that it was a very good mix. You had established characters like Helena, Midnighter, or Kathy there to give the story weight and new characters like Mister Minos or Tiger, but the story wasn't built just around these new characters where it was all on them. 

But I also understand that creators now are incentivized to create new characters in their stories, and that is one of the reasons why there is such a big cycle of new characters introduced and forgotten about when a new creator comes in and wants to introduce their own new ones.

----------


## oasis1313

I would probably suggest a moratorium on creator-owned characters--especially non-costumed ones.  "Grayson" did it right.  Otherwise, you introduce Shawn--and she's nothing but a Damsel in Distress.  Dick needs something like a Power Girl, who can take care of herself.  I'd like to see Tiger King more--in fact, he needs his own title.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d30/1902/75/fbb0d58f1d8e.jpg[/IMG]

http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/182...at-ben-a-robin

 Batfleck version of Batman and Titans version of Robin.

[IMG]https://a.***********/a21/1902/b0/4b0dfed2b5e8.jpg[/IMG]

https://evandocshaner.tumblr.com/pos...-all-the-older

----------


## oasis1313

Old Dick has that Rogue hair thang going.  He's still teaching gym classes at that age?

----------


## dropkickjake

> You can use new characters as well, but I don't think you should try to build everything around them. I feel like the Grayson series got it right in that it was a very good mix. You had established characters like Helena, Midnighter, or Kathy there to give the story weight and new characters like Mister Minos or Tiger, but the story wasn't built just around these new characters where it was all on them.


I agree with this, even if I disagree with the idea that lasting supporting casts aren't important. I think that Detective Svoboda (sp?) is a good example actually. She has a distinct and non-generic personality, has been in the book under two authors, but never received real "focus." Thats the beginning of what _could_ be a lasting supporting character who later can be explored in more depth, _if_ subsequent creators continue to use her.

----------


## wvchemteach

I get that Batman, Spiderman and Superman have the only lasting large well known casts, but every successful solo character has one or more recurring characters that make their world real. Also sometimes those supporting characters grow into more on their own. Dick essentially was Batman's supporting character that has grown into his own man.

Green Lantern has Carol and the Green Lantern Corp. 

The Flash, has Iris, Wally West, (if they'd stop killing/vanishing him), Wallace West (we'll see if he sticks), Daryl Frye, Henry Allen, etc.

Aquaman has Mera, Garth, Dolphin, Tula, Vulko, and Murk just to start.

Iron Man has Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan.

Captain America had Bucky and Falcon/

Hulk had Rick Jones.

You can say Wolverine didn't have a supporting cast because the rest of the X-Men were his supporting cast. You don't need one in team books.

But for any solo hero, he or she cannot exist in a vacuum so if you want the title to be successful part of building a world around the character is a consistent supporting cast.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I get that Batman, Spiderman and Superman have the only lasting large well known casts, but every successful solo character has one or more recurring characters that make their world real. Also sometimes those supporting characters grow into more on their own. Dick essentially was Batman's supporting character that has grown into his own man.
> 
> Green Lantern has Carol and the Green Lantern Corp. 
> 
> The Flash, has Iris, Wally West, (if they'd stop killing/vanishing him), Wallace West (we'll see if he sticks), Daryl Frye, Henry Allen, etc.
> 
> Aquaman has Mera, Garth, Dolphin, Tula, Vulko, and Murk just to start.
> 
> Iron Man has Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan.
> ...


Also, its worth noting that saying "Other than Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man" is saying "Other than the three most successful comic book characters of all time."

----------


## wvchemteach

> Also, its worth noting that saying "Other than Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man" is saying "Other than the three most successful comic book characters of all time."


Exactly... you are pointing to the formula of success and saying nah, I won't do that.

----------


## Schumiac

Supporting casts done right definitely add a lot to a comic book, but even more important is the rogues gallery. One of Batman's greatest strengths has been his villains. One of Nightwing's greatest weaknesses have been his... He needs some interesting formidable villains of his own that he can beat up regularly...

----------


## wvchemteach

> Supporting casts done right definitely add a lot to a comic book, but even more important is the rogues gallery. One of Batman's greatest strengths has been his villains. One of Nightwing's greatest weaknesses have been his... He needs some interesting formidable villains of his own that he can beat up regularly...


Nightwing has had some villains in his solo title that have potential: Lady Vic, Brutale, Double Dare, Hella, Sylph, Raptor, Shrike, Sheiko, Blockbuster, Tarantula (despite the issues in her last run), Mr. Minos, William Cobb, Marionette and I would go so far as to say many of the villains that saw a renaissance during the DickBats run or borrowed and used better than they ever were originally should belong to him like Professor Pyg and the Circus of Crime (I mean seriously if there was ever a villain that seemed to be designed for Dick the Circus of Crime fits the bill), Prankster (this was one of Higgins better moves in his run). 

Additionally some of the D-level villains in Batman and other rogue galleries can be made interesting by a talented writer. I point to the Prankster and Professor Pyg as proof. 


Unfortunately what Dick needs is a writer of the caliber of Dixon or Seely that is willing to tackle the book for a 50 to 100 issue run and establish the Nightwing Bible so to speak with supporting cast and recurring rogues and a status-quo that needs to be then followed-up with by future writers.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Supporting casts done right definitely add a lot to a comic book, but even more important is the rogues gallery. One of Batman's greatest strengths has been his villains. One of Nightwing's greatest weaknesses have been his... He needs some interesting formidable villains of his own that he can beat up regularly...


This again is a symptom of creative teams being reluctant to use what came before them. Dick actually has a good mix of villains at his disposal, some of which are from the Dixon days, some are more recent. On Batman, we tend to see creative teams reusing old rogues or, like Snyder, alternating between old rogues and original foes. A run like that on Nightwing could help cement a rogues gallery. Off the top of my head, some that I'd consider would be:

Crazy Quilt (history from his robin days for zany fun whodunnits). 
Jinx or Gizmo from his Titans days
Deathstroke (I know he is now "too big to just be a nightwing villain" but I think their rivalry needs to be recemented)
Pyg (absolutely crazy, this should be Dick's Joker in terms of being an absolutely crazy city level threat)
Tiger Shark
Lady Vic
Shrike (maybe)
Blockbuster (not the most interesting villain, but hard to jettison)
Brutale and Electrocutioner (as low level thugs)
Raptor has real staying power.
William Cobb could be revisited.

----------


## Jackalope89

Every hero needs a silly villain. Give Dick Condiment King, the villain who makes it his life goal to permanently stain Dick's uniform with ketchup and mustard.

----------


## Badou

> I get that Batman, Spiderman and Superman have the only lasting large well known casts, but every successful solo character has one or more recurring characters that make their world real. Also sometimes those supporting characters grow into more on their own. Dick essentially was Batman's supporting character that has grown into his own man.
> 
> Green Lantern has Carol and the Green Lantern Corp. 
> 
> The Flash, has Iris, Wally West, (if they'd stop killing/vanishing him), Wallace West (we'll see if he sticks), Daryl Frye, Henry Allen, etc.
> 
> Aquaman has Mera, Garth, Dolphin, Tula, Vulko, and Murk just to start.
> 
> Iron Man has Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan.
> ...


Most of these are a stretch. When was the last time Happy Hogan mattered in comics? The Auqaman characters outside Mera are irrelevant as proven by the success of the character without most of them since the reboot. Same with all the Flash characters outside of Iris. Wolverine had one of the most successful ongoing solo books for decades and he didn't have the normal supporting cast. He came from a team book first before getting his solo the same as Nightwing. Most of these characters were grandfathered in and I don't think trying to copy these characters in modern comics is necessary and a big waste of time, especially for a character like Nightwing that doesn't fit in that mold. Where he doesn't have a normal job or a regular personal life that is the basis for most of these type of characters. 

I could say Nightwing has Huntress, Batgirl, Robin or all the Titans if you want to add supporting characters to his series and that is just as good if not better than most solo series. 




> Exactly... you are pointing to the formula of success and saying nah, I won't do that.


Yeah, a formula for success decades ago. In modern comics where everything is much more interconnected trying to build up a cast the old fashioned way is an archaic way of trying to write modern comics.

----------


## Godlike13

While i agree those guys technically aren't Nightwing supporting characters, why not use some of them for his supporting cast. I mean Jason can get Titans as supporting characters, not sure why Nightwing can't. Titans, Babs, Damian, Huntress why not lean into these characters.

----------


## Jackalope89

> While i agree those guys technically aren't Nightwing supporting characters, why not use some of them for his supporting cast. I mean Jason can get Titans as supporting characters, not sure why Nightwing can't. Titans, Babs, Damian, Huntress why not lean into these characters.


Well, Jason doesn't have them as supporting cast anymore. One got axed, the other is off in deep space. His next crew got trapped in another dimension, but neither were ever Titans.

----------


## dietrich

> I liked the stupid karate cowboy and the Runoffs.


I liked the Cowboy and the Runoffs too.
The Spyral cast like the Skull Girls and Damian who technically was created for dickbats. Don't see why the other bat characters and the titans can't work as supporting cast for Dick to be honest

I prefer to see Pyg as Dick's villan and the Court of Owls for that matter

----------


## Badou

> Well, Jason doesn't have them as supporting cast anymore. One got axed, the other is off in deep space. His next crew got trapped in another dimension, but neither were ever Titans.


Jason had Roy as a supporting character basically for 50+ issues and Starfire for a large amount in the first Red Hood and the Outlaws run. I mean Jason has had a on going for nearly 7 and a half years now and it isn't concerned with trying to build a supporting cast in the traditional way. Just trying to tell interesting and fun stories with bits and pieces from either the DCU or the Batman mythos when it fits.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d30/1902/75/fbb0d58f1d8e.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/182...at-ben-a-robin
> 
>  Batfleck version of Batman and Titans version of Robin.
> 
> [IMG]https://a.***********/a21/1902/b0/4b0dfed2b5e8.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> https://evandocshaner.tumblr.com/pos...-all-the-older


Older Dick looks kinda like Alfred but better looking.

----------


## byrd156

> While i agree those guys technically aren't Nightwing supporting characters, why not use some of them for his supporting cast. I mean Jason can get Titans as supporting characters, not sure why Nightwing can't. Titans, Babs, Damian, Huntress why not lean into these characters.


These characters should be Dick's supporting cast but I don't see why a few like Clancy can't come back.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## oasis1313

> 


Looks good--should Dick be Buckified?

----------


## byrd156

> 


This design bothers me. It's like part Starman, part Winter Solder, part New-52 Nigthwing. Those baggy pants mixed with a tight shirt looks hilarious to me.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Most of these are a stretch. When was the last time Happy Hogan mattered in comics? The Auqaman characters outside Mera are irrelevant as proven by the success of the character without most of them since the reboot. Same with all the Flash characters outside of Iris. Wolverine had one of the most successful ongoing solo books for decades and he didn't have the normal supporting cast. He came from a team book first before getting his solo the same as Nightwing. Most of these characters were grandfathered in and I don't think trying to copy these characters in modern comics is necessary and a big waste of time, especially for a character like Nightwing that doesn't fit in that mold. Where he doesn't have a normal job or a regular personal life that is the basis for most of these type of characters. 
> 
> I could say Nightwing has Huntress, Batgirl, Robin or all the Titans if you want to add supporting characters to his series and that is just as good if not better than most solo series. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, a formula for success decades ago. In modern comics where everything is much more interconnected trying to build up a cast the old fashioned way is an archaic way of trying to write modern comics.


Except the comics that have the strongest runs even today consistently have a strong supporting cast. Aquaman was on fire when he had a solid supporting cast. Green Lantern was at his best when the Corp was around him. And so on and so on... it isn't old fashioned... it is excellent storytelling... something that most comics do not do nowadays.

----------


## Konja7

> While i agree those guys technically aren't Nightwing supporting characters, why not use some of them for his supporting cast. I mean Jason can get Titans as supporting characters, not sure why Nightwing can't. Titans, Babs, Damian, Huntress why not lean into these characters.


Barbara or Damian are too important to be supporting cast for Dick, they also have their own writers for their respective comics. They would be co-lead in the comic (I wouldn't complaint, I like the idea of a "Nightwing and Robin" comic).

Some Titans or Huntress as supporting cast is possible, especially since these characters don't have a book. However, these characters will still be replaced for a new team.

----------


## Badou

> Except the comics that have the strongest runs even today consistently have a strong supporting cast. Aquaman was on fire when he had a solid supporting cast. Green Lantern was at his best when the Corp was around him. And so on and so on... it isn't old fashioned... it is excellent storytelling... something that most comics do not do nowadays.


The two examples there are a King of Atlantis and Intergalactic Space Cops. They at least lend themselves to more unique ideas, and in the GL's case it is filled with already established characters who had solos or large roles in big team books before, but Nightwing solo's tend to follow the traditional old way of trying to build him as a solo hero and I don't think it works. They look at it and put him in his own city because that is what a solo hero is supposed to do in their eyes. Then they think that since he is in his own city that he needs a normal day job because that is what those classic heroes have. So they try and give him some job to occupy his time and then have that job be the source of his supporting cast and fill it up with new characters. Then they try and give him a new love interest to try and follow that mold too, and finally since he is in his own city with his own new supporting cast they think they need to have a bunch of new villains for him that are "his". 

I think that is an old way to look at comics for a street level hero like Nightwing, and it doesn't fit him. He doesn't have this big motivation to have this normal career like a Superman, Daredevil, or Spider-man. He doesn't have some major attachment to a city that he grew up in like Bruce. All of his friends or people he associates with are also heroes themselves and has no real attachment to people who aren't heroes the way a Spider-man has. He is a solo hero that doesn't fit in that traditional mold but they keep trying to force it and every new run they are restarting trying to make it work with new careers, supporting casts, and so on. 

Comics universes are more interconnected than they used to be and I think trying to make a Nighting solo book the old fashion way when he deoesn't really fit in that mold doesn't work. All Dick really wants to do is be a hero and I'd build his solo book around that where he is just a DCU hero and drop all the traditional stuff. Make the whole universe is his supporting cast. If you can structure that around him being in something like Spyral then great, which allows him the freedom to go or do anything, but I'm not concerned with trying to make Dick a taxi driver or a bar tender stuck in some city that isn't really that interesting.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, everyone is too important for Nightwing. Batman can be used as an supporting character for a character like Signal, but when it comes to Nightwing everyone is just too important to ever play a supporting role for him.

And I should point out, and I kind of forgot this myself, Seeley did use Babs, Damian, and a Huntress as supporting characters in his run at various times for certain arcs (his best arcs IMO). So it is doable. My thinking is why not expand even further on that and the characters Dicks has connections with. A lot of them are far less important than Babs and Damian. Hell, Dick himself was basically just a supporting character in Titans.

----------


## byrd156

> Ya, everyone is too important for Nightwing. Batman can be used as an supporting character for a character like Signal, but when it comes to Nightwing everyone is just too important to ever play a supporting role for him.
> 
> And I should point out, and I kind of forgot this myself, Seeley did use Babs, Damian, and a Huntress as supporting characters in his run at various times for certain arcs (his best arcs IMO). So it is doable. My thinking is why not expand even further on that and the characters Dicks has connections with. A lot of them are far less important than Babs and Damian. Hell, Dick himself was basically just a supporting character in Titan’s.


As long as they can rotate the cast accordingly for when other characters use them. It helps both parties, Dick in having a better supporting cast and other heroes that may be in limbo or the like getting screen time.

----------


## nightbird

I don’t know, am I strange for still wanting to see in Nightwing books characters exclusive to him? Like when you say their name first thing that pop up in her head is Nightwing, not Batman or Titans or their own solos. Characters that would actually stick around with every new book, new writer and continuity. Characters that would belong only to Nightwing’s mythology and his own little corner in DCU.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s just doesn’t seems feasible for him, at least not under the current management, so why not try a different way. Use characters that aren’t as naturallly disposable, and can be shuffled here and there.

----------


## nightbird

> It’s just doesn’t seems feasible for him, at least not under the current management, so why not try a different way. Use characters that aren’t as naturallly disposable, and can be shuffled here and there.


Neither way is going to work under the current management.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b35/1902/90/c2ede67378d3.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://b.***********/b33/1902/4d/3c38e50e7591.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## WonderNight

Bring Karen Starr in as his supporting cast  :Big Grin:  better than limbo.

----------


## Konja7

> Ya, everyone is too important for Nightwing. Batman can be used as an supporting character for a character like Signal, but when it comes to Nightwing everyone is just too important to ever play a supporting role for him.
> 
> And I should point out, and I kind of forgot this myself, Seeley did use Babs, Damian, and a Huntress as supporting characters in his run at various times for certain arcs (his best arcs IMO). So it is doable. My thinking is why not expand even further on that and the characters Dicks has connections with. A lot of them are far less important than Babs and Damian. Hell, Dick himself was basically just a supporting character in Titans.



The comic was "Batman and the Signal", so Batman wasn't a supporting character, he was a co-lead (in fact, Batman is the main reason the comic sell).

I mean if you want a "Batman and Nightwing" comic, Batman wouldn't be a supporting cast. 

Seely use Huntress as supporting cast (I mentioned this too), but Barbara and Damian were guest stars in Dick's comic.

----------


## wvchemteach

> The two examples there are a King of Atlantis and Intergalactic Space Cops. They at least lend themselves to more unique ideas, and in the GL's case it is filled with already established characters who had solos or large roles in big team books before, but Nightwing solo's tend to follow the traditional old way of trying to build him as a solo hero and I don't think it works. They look at it and put him in his own city because that is what a solo hero is supposed to do in their eyes. Then they think that since he is in his own city that he needs a normal day job because that is what those classic heroes have. So they try and give him some job to occupy his time and then have that job be the source of his supporting cast and fill it up with new characters. Then they try and give him a new love interest to try and follow that mold too, and finally since he is in his own city with his own new supporting cast they think they need to have a bunch of new villains for him that are "his". 
> 
> I think that is an old way to look at comics for a street level hero like Nightwing, and it doesn't fit him. He doesn't have this big motivation to have this normal career like a Superman, Daredevil, or Spider-man. He doesn't have some major attachment to a city that he grew up in like Bruce. All of his friends or people he associates with are also heroes themselves and has no real attachment to people who aren't heroes the way a Spider-man has. He is a solo hero that doesn't fit in that traditional mold but they keep trying to force it and every new run they are restarting trying to make it work with new careers, supporting casts, and so on. 
> 
> Comics universes are more interconnected than they used to be and I think trying to make a Nighting solo book the old fashion way when he deoesn't really fit in that mold doesn't work. All Dick really wants to do is be a hero and I'd build his solo book around that where he is just a DCU hero and drop all the traditional stuff. Make the whole universe is his supporting cast. If you can structure that around him being in something like Spyral then great, which allows him the freedom to go or do anything, but I'm not concerned with trying to make Dick a taxi driver or a bar tender stuck in some city that isn't really that interesting.


You keep saying it won't work... yet the times when Nightwing and Grayson were at their best was when they did have a consistent supporting cast. Dixon set up Bludhaven quite well for with a supporting cast of Clancy, Amygdala, John Fox, Hank Hogan, Mutt, Amy Rohrbach, Jim Rohrbach, Justin Rohrbach, Emma Rohrbach, Dave Toussant, Kesia Toussant as well as have Oracle and the Birds of Prey in and out. This was a solid 70 issue run of mostly good storytelling that even didn't get derailed too badly by several Bat-events that sucked him out of his own story. Then Devin Greyson takes over kills off the supporting cast and the book goes to hell. Now were the characters used every issue... of course not... but they provided flavor and background to his world. For the rest of volume #2 of Nightwing there was never a consistent supporting cast and the book sucked from that point forward.


Nightwing Volume 3 can be characterized by Higgins shooting himself in the foot by blowing up his supporting cast over and over... burning down the circus. Then just as he started to build something in Chicago with Joey, Michael Pearson, and Jen (the Chicago run was the best part of Volume 3) Forever Evil occurs and kills off the supporting cast.


Grayson you have Helena, the Skullgirls, Tiger, Frau Netz, Midnighter, Dr. Ashemore, and The Syndicate fleshed out the world of Spyral and made it more real.


In Nightwing Volume 4 you start off with Seely using Batgirl and the Bat-family, Doctor Leviticus, and the Spyral connections before building up the cast in Bludhaven, Defacer, Grimm, Giz, Mouse, Stallion, Thrilldevil, and Detective Svobada and you have probably the best long run of Nightwing since Dixon's run in Volume 2 and a new writer takes over, dumps the supporting cast except for Svobada and begins the descent into what is now 'Ric' Grayson and the Mighty Nightwings.

Supporting cast allows the reader to see how the hero interacts in his/her everyday life and makes the character relatable. If the only characters the hero interacts with are the villains or other heroes, the stories become repetitive and boring.

----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/zumaon

----------


## Badou

> You keep saying it won't work... yet the times when Nightwing and Grayson were at their best was when they did have a consistent supporting cast. Dixon set up Bludhaven quite well for with a supporting cast of Clancy, Amygdala, John Fox, Hank Hogan, Mutt, Amy Rohrbach, Jim Rohrbach, Justin Rohrbach, Emma Rohrbach, Dave Toussant, Kesia Toussant as well as have Oracle and the Birds of Prey in and out. This was a solid 70 issue run of mostly good storytelling that even didn't get derailed too badly by several Bat-events that sucked him out of his own story. Then Devin Greyson takes over kills off the supporting cast and the book goes to hell. Now were the characters used every issue... of course not... but they provided flavor and background to his world. For the rest of volume #2 of Nightwing there was never a consistent supporting cast and the book sucked from that point forward.
> 
> 
> Nightwing Volume 3 can be characterized by Higgins shooting himself in the foot by blowing up his supporting cast over and over... burning down the circus. Then just as he started to build something in Chicago with Joey, Michael Pearson, and Jen (the Chicago run was the best part of Volume 3) Forever Evil occurs and kills off the supporting cast.
> 
> 
> Grayson you have Helena, the Skullgirls, Tiger, Frau Netz, Midnighter, Dr. Ashemore, and The Syndicate fleshed out the world of Spyral and made it more real.
> 
> 
> ...


How can you say those were good supporting casts that worked when they are non existent now? They weren't strong enough to make it as long standing characters once their writer left. All those characters Dixon, Grayson, Tomasi, Higgins, or even Seeley created. So much wasted time in trying to set up all these new characters in these new cities with Dick's new career that at the end of the day didn't really amount to anything of real substance. It is the same with the new characters now. You think these new Nightwings or this old taxi driver are worth the time creators are putting into them? It is a waste of time to me. The only characters that tend to stand out are characters that were already pre established like a Barbara, Damian, or Helena but those aren't the characters I am talking about since they aren't looked at as Dick's supporting cast. 

Also you must have missed my original post on this topic. I said Grayson was the proper way to set up a supporting cast. Since it isn't all built with new characters and you had Helena, Midnighter, and Kathy which carried a lot of the weight. By supporting cast I was talking about all the useless new characters that get introduced just to be Nightwing's supporting cast when I think it is a waste of time. Not saying you can't created new characters and use them, but I think it is a wrong approach to hang everything on them the old way when you have countless established characters from the Batman family, Titans, Superman, and so on to use across the DCU. I think to hang everything on trying to create new characters to be Dick's supporting cast whenever he gets stuck in some city in the mold of trying to emulate a Spider-man or Daredevil is an old way of trying to write comics and it doesn't fit the type of character he is.

Here is the big problem. Dick's everyday like consists of heroes and villains. He has no desire for a normal life or career and I think trying to give him one is a mistake. It is why writers are constantly trying to find some place for him like a traditional solo hero but it doesn't work. Then they give him some useless job in some useless city and they fill it with all these new characters that are supposed to be Dick's supporting cast and I don't think there is any need for them in modern comics. Just tell good stories and use any characters you want across the DCU in any manner of way.

----------


## Godlike13

> The comic was "Batman and the Signal", so Batman wasn't a supporting character, he was a co-lead (in fact, Batman is the main reason the comic sell).
> 
> I mean if you want a "Batman and Nightwing" comic, Batman wouldn't be a supporting cast. 
> 
> Seely use Huntress as supporting cast (I mentioned this too), but Barbara and Damian were guest stars in Dick's comic.


Ya, ya, and Batman was "co-lead" in Tynion’s Tec. Reminds when people would tell me how Oracle was "co-lead" in Batgirl before the New 52 all the time. Sure...

----------


## Ascended

> How can you say those were good supporting casts that worked when they are non existent now? They weren't strong enough to make it as long standing characters once their writer left. All those characters Dixon, Grayson, Tomasi, Higgins, or even Seeley created. So much wasted time in trying to set up all these new characters in these new cities with Dick's new career that at the end of the day didn't really amount to anything of real substance.


I think this is a problem with supporting characters who don't already have precedent and history behind them. Look at Wonder Woman; it's rare to see a supporting cast last beyond the creators who made them, and it's been like that for decades. Even Steve Trevor and Etta Candy, Diana's biggest support players historically, were absent for most of post-Crisis, and their involvement since then has been hit or miss. It's like that with everyone. Does anyone really think that Robinson Goode, the new reporter at the Daily Planet, will stick around after Bendis leaves? Unless your supporting character has been around just as long as the hero and has always had a huge role in the narrative, odds are you're not actually going to stick around too long. Even Vickie Vale isn't a consistent player in Gotham.

But does that mean the supporting characters didn't work at all? I dont think so. Is a supporting character "bad" because the next writer dumps them? No, that just means the writer was given too much freedom and leeway and editorial didn't enforce the kind of world building they should have. You're blaming the character for the actions of creators and their editors. Dick has had some great supporting cast members (and several boring/bad ones) but the lack of consistency, development, and constancy isn't on the characters, its on DC for not doing the job right. Dixon brought a great crew to Bludhaven; they didn't fail because they were bad characters they failed because DC couldn't be bothered to make the next writers toe the line.




> Here is the big problem. Dick's everyday like consists of heroes and villains. He has no desire for a normal life or career and I think trying to give him one is a mistake. It is why writers are constantly trying to find some place for him like a traditional solo hero but it doesn't work. Then they give him some useless job in some useless city and they fill it with all these new characters that are supposed to be Dick's supporting cast and I don't think there is any need for them in modern comics. Just tell good stories and use any characters you want across the DCU in any manner of way.


This I agree with. Dick's not a character who's going to naturally gravitate to a 9-5 job. In fact, he's basically incapable of holding down any kind of job at all, beyond being a hero. And locking him down to one city is hard to do; it either comes off as a cheap copy of Gotham/Hell's Kitchen, or as limiting Dick in his ability and range. But you can work with/around that. He can have EMT's and cops and detectives in his supporting cast who he interacts with as Nightwing, agents of Argus he keeps running into while globe trotting, he can have neighbors he runs into in his apartment (he's not *always* in costume or traveling, and dude's gotta buy groceries!). I think you can spin Dick away from the traditional hero setup of a stable, single setting and supporting cast, without having to rely utterly on other heroes and characters from other franchises popping into his title and life. Dick might be at the center of the DCU, with more connections and friendships across the heroic community than the whole League put together, but that doesnt mean he cant or shouldnt have a supporting cast of his own. Nor does it mean a supporting cast is a waste of time. All it takes is a good writer and an editor who will say "No, new writer, you use the gods damn toys you have instead of throwing them out and getting new ones!"

----------


## Konja7

> Ya, ya, and Batman was "co-lead" in Tynions Tec. Reminds when people would tell me how Oracle was "co-lead" to Batgirl all the time. Sure...


Oracle wasn't a co-lead to Batgirl. She was a suporting cast at first (in both cases, she become a guest star later).

I was speaking about "Batman and the Signal", where Batman is considered co-lead. Tynion's Tec was a show as a team book, but Batman is still considered a co-lead. 

Do you think Batman is written as supporting characters in these stories? That doesn't matter, the important thing is the way in which the book is perceived.

If the title of the comic included the name of the character. This character wouldn't be considered only a supporting cast (even if this is his/her role in the story).

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## Godlike13

So it doesn’t matter if the character is written in a supporting role, and main function is to prop another, their name is in the title and that makes them co-lead. Ya, sorry but that’s bull. It was bull in B&R:E where the Robins were used to support and help sell Harper and Cass, it was bull in Tynion's Tec where Batman was there to support and sell the other team member, and it’s bull that in Batman and Signal where Batman is there to support and help sell Signal. Readers aren’t that dumb.

----------


## Mataza

> So it doesn’t matter if the character is written in a supporting role, and main function is to prop another, their name is in the title and that makes them co-lead. Ya, sorry but that’s bull. It was bull in B&R:E where the Robins were used to support and help sell Harper and Cass, it was bull in Tynion's Tec where Batman was there to support and sell the other team member, and it’s bull that in Batman and Signal where Batman is there to support and help sell Signal. Readers aren’t that dumb.


Batman wasnt in tec to prop other characters tho. He did do quite a bit of that, but the main function was him as a symbol for younger heroes. 
He was in charge, but at the same time he was supportive and protective (which probably was an argument against the Batman as an asshole to his partners trope). For all the shit i give tynion at least his batman wasnt there just to job or even mainly to job.

----------


## Konja7

> So it doesn’t matter if the character is written in a supporting role, and main function is to prop another, their name is in the title and that makes them co-lead. Ya, sorry but that’s bull. It was bull in B&R:E where the Robins were used to support and help sell Harper and Cass, it was bull in Tynion's Tec where Batman was there to support and sell the other team member, and it’s bull that in Batman and Signal where Batman is there to support and help sell Signal. Readers aren’t that dumb.


Well, "Batman and the Signal" has good sales (much better than "The Signal" comic would have) . So, I guess it works. 

Anyway, my point is that Batgirl (Barbara) or Robin (Damian) wouldn't be a supporting cast in a Nightwing comic. The book would need a new title like "Nightwing and Batgirl" or "Nightwing and Robin".

----------


## Godlike13

It does work, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing to use these characters in supporting roles from time to time, but nevertheless a spade a spade. If they are there in a supporting role and function, they’re a supporting character. You really think people are going into Batman and the Signal thinking Batman is in a starring role there. It sold better than The Signal would but it still isn’t sniffing Batman numbers.

----------


## Konja7

> It does work, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing to use these characters in supporting roles from time to time, but nevertheless a spade a spade. If they are there in a supporting role and function, they’re a supporting character. You really think people are going into Batman and the Signal thinking Batman is in a starring role there.


People will assume Batman will appear in almost every issue, since the comic has his name in the title. 

They put Batman in the title and the cover of the first issue (which usually show the protagonists), because they know they need this to sell this story with Duke. 


That doesn't change my main point, they wouldn't put Batgirl or Robin as permanent supporting cast in Nightwing comic. The title will include them.

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## Godlike13

And again we have already seen Batgirl and Robin used as supporting characters for Nightwing. Percy was even using Batgirl as such in his run. They don’t necessarily have to be permanent. That’s the point. Less disposable characters that readers are already familiar with, to come in and out and play supporting roles in various stories.

----------


## oasis1313

> And again we have already seen Batgirl and Robin used as supporting characters for Nightwing. Percy was even using Batgirl as such in his run. They don’t necessarily have to be permanent. That’s the point. Less disposable characters that readers are already familiar with, to come in and out and play supporting roles in various stories.


Well, it's supposed to be a family.  You and your kin might not all be living in each other's back pockets, but you stay in touch, you visit, you have each other's backs.  I don't have a problem with Bat-Family members appearing in each others' books.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b24/1902/3a/cc7c5ed66dcf.jpg[/IMG]

Titans 

http://lightningstrikes-art.tumblr.c...t/182513054274

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b43/1902/8d/e50e81ccb711.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://b.***********/b32/1902/32/afc3a752a595.jpg[/IMG]

covert operation YJ Nightwing style

https://itsasimplereason.tumblr.com/...e-a-summary-or

----------


## astro@work

> You keep saying it won't work... yet the times when Nightwing and Grayson were at their best was when they did have a consistent supporting cast. Dixon set up Bludhaven quite well for with a supporting cast of Clancy, Amygdala, John Fox, Hank Hogan, Mutt, Amy Rohrbach, Jim Rohrbach, Justin Rohrbach, Emma Rohrbach, Dave Toussant, Kesia Toussant as well as have Oracle and the Birds of Prey in and out. This was a solid 70 issue run of mostly good storytelling that even didn't get derailed too badly by several Bat-events that sucked him out of his own story. Then Devin Greyson takes over kills off the supporting cast and the book goes to hell. Now were the characters used every issue... of course not... but they provided flavor and background to his world. For the rest of volume #2 of Nightwing there was never a consistent supporting cast and the book sucked from that point forward.
> 
> 
> Nightwing Volume 3 can be characterized by Higgins shooting himself in the foot by blowing up his supporting cast over and over... burning down the circus. Then just as he started to build something in Chicago with Joey, Michael Pearson, and Jen (the Chicago run was the best part of Volume 3) Forever Evil occurs and kills off the supporting cast.
> 
> 
> Grayson you have Helena, the Skullgirls, Tiger, Frau Netz, Midnighter, Dr. Ashemore, and The Syndicate fleshed out the world of Spyral and made it more real.
> 
> 
> ...


100% agree. Dick’s runs have been at their best when he has a consistent supporting cast, and you see him building relationships. I have no interest in reading about a nomadic Nightwing, who doesn’t ever interact with anybody that isn’t a hero or villain. 

The problem is every time we get a new writer they want to reinvent the wheel and ignore everything the past writer did. Meh.
Wonder Woman suffered from this for years post-Crisis. Her title has been much better in recent years BECAUSE of a mostly consistent cast. Same with Batgirl.

----------


## Badou

> But does that mean the supporting characters didn't work at all? I dont think so. Is a supporting character "bad" because the next writer dumps them? No, that just means the writer was given too much freedom and leeway and editorial didn't enforce the kind of world building they should have. You're blaming the character for the actions of creators and their editors. Dick has had some great supporting cast members (and several boring/bad ones) but the lack of consistency, development, and constancy isn't on the characters, its on DC for not doing the job right. Dixon brought a great crew to Bludhaven; they didn't fail because they were bad characters they failed because DC couldn't be bothered to make the next writers toe the line.


I guess the difference we have is I think that vast majority of those supporting cast members were boring and not very interesting. I don't think investing more time and resources into them will change that. All these runoff characters that Seeley brought back from Dixon's run I didn't care for nor the vast majority of new characters that fill the Nightwing books over the years. Leave them in the past where they belong. I feel like trying to reuse so many of these poor characters will continue to lead to poor stories that don't really go anywhere or do anything. I don't think bringing Clancy back or reusing that computer roommate girl in Higgins Chicago run will make the Nightwing book any better. Like the best stories we get are ones that involve Dick in the DCU interacting with characters that he actually has connections with. Who is Donna Troy story, Grayson, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin, the non Bludhaven issues of Seeley's run, the Oracle focused issues from the early Nightwing era, and so on. Do more of those and less of Dick doing some pointless job in a city that is going nowhere other than trying to emulate Daredevil. 

I'll bring up the Wolverine series again and I'd prefer something in that mold. Wolverine is also a hero that doesn't really have any plans for a "normal" life or career and originated from a team book. His stories consisted of stories built around him but with him exploring the MCU in various ways. He has a base of operations in the X-Men or Avengers if he needs one but his solo stories focus on him. Dick has that with Gotham and the Titans if he needs a home base, but he should just explore the DCU as a hero and build various stories around that. Like what the Young Justice show is doing. Even the Red Hood and the Outlaws book is doing this and loads of Marvel books.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a08/1902/84/c283bbcfe3b9.jpg[/IMG]

https://htnks.tumblr.com/post/182424789869

----------


## Schumiac

> Well, it's supposed to be a family.  You and your kin might not all be living in each other's back pockets, but you stay in touch, you visit, you have each other's backs.  I don't have a problem with Bat-Family members appearing in each others' books.


Yeah, it is only natural... Actually, I think it is a problem when they are made to appear oblivious to whatever is going on in each other's life. They don't even necessarily have to do "heroic" stuff together and work an entire issue towards catching a villain every time -which are the usual "comic selling" gimmicks where they are featured in the comics etc-... Even a smalll couple-panel long phone or vid convo etc to show these people keep in touch can do wonders for the overall story and feel of the comics...

When Babs and Dick were dating back in the Vol 1 years, Babs would appear in Nightwing comics, as was expected. Given she was his girlfriend. She was part of the supporting cast and obviously the title of the comcis wasn't changed to Oracle & Nightwing as her part in it werent huge. Just a reminder that Nightwing is human and has loved ones and friends and neighbors and coworkers and does "common folks stuff" at times... Which is often the purpose of the supporting cast, I would say.  To make the hero more than "the hero".


No new supporting cast is going to "make it" if they are being discarded anytime a new writer shows up... Or the hero keeps getting reset with a new canon  every few years *ahem*. It is an "industry" problem rather than a Nightwing problem though.

----------


## Schumiac

> https://twitter.com/zumaon


Dick drawing in the kids who don't want to be in the family pic/hug...

----------


## oasis1313

It's a laziness problem.

----------


## Ascended

> I guess the difference we have is I think that vast majority of those supporting cast members were boring and not very interesting. .


Well if the issue is you just didn't like them, then that's all good. Hell, I haven't liked them all, and haven't been particularly thrilled by any of them since the circus crew. 

As for Dick getting along without a supporting cast, I think he could. He definitely doesnt stick around any one place long enough to build lasting relationships (because writers keep dumping the previous work, the bastards!) so not even trying does have its appeal. 

I myself think he's gotta have at least a few regular faces who aren't guest starring from other properties; even a globe-trotting Dick Grayson is going to have some people he interacts with on a semi-regular basis, and a homebase to return to occasionally. But I dont think either view is wrong, just two different yet valid approaches. 




> Dick drawing in the kids who don't want to be in the family pic/hug...


Twitter has a really odd idea of what the Batfamily is like. But the fanart is cute.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Twitter has a really odd idea of what the Batfamily is like. But the fanart is cute.


That kinda fanart doesn't depict what's in the comic but what they want to see, that often they never get in the comics

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t know, everyone hugging each other all the time would be weird.

----------


## dropkickjake

Anyone read that Batgirl story arc with Dick as a supporting character/co-star? I'm reading through it now. Enjoyable stuff. Doesn't treat Dick like he's incompetent to a major jerkface. Really my one complaint is that the penciler seems to have drawn him weird throughout the whole thing. Like, he has female hips. Least masculine rendering of a male I've seen in comics.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well if the issue is you just didn't like them, then that's all good. Hell, I haven't liked them all, and haven't been particularly thrilled by any of them since the circus crew. 
> 
> As for Dick getting along without a supporting cast, I think he could. He definitely doesnt stick around any one place long enough to build lasting relationships (because writers keep dumping the previous work, the bastards!) so not even trying does have its appeal. 
> 
> I myself think he's gotta have at least a few regular faces who aren't guest starring from other properties; even a globe-trotting Dick Grayson is going to have some people he interacts with on a semi-regular basis, and a homebase to return to occasionally. But I dont think either view is wrong, just two different yet valid approaches. 
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter has a really odd idea of what the Batfamily is like. But the fanart is cute.


I would be in favor of the return of Ninnel from Grayson #1.

----------


## Godlike13

> Anyone read that Batgirl story arc with Dick as a supporting character/co-star? I'm reading through it now. Enjoyable stuff. Doesn't treat Dick like he's incompetent to a major jerkface. Really my one complaint is that the penciler seems to have drawn him weird throughout the whole thing. Like, he has female hips. Least masculine rendering of a male I've seen in comics.



The Summer of Lies arc? I liked it. Thought Larson did a good job with Nightwing.

----------


## dropkickjake

> The Summer of Lies arc? I liked it. Thought Larson did a good job with Nightwing.


Yeah, thats the one. Other than the weird art I really enjoyed. It was some of the better written Dick/Babs. It also makes me long for some more arcs set in the DickRobin early BabsGirl era.

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## oasis1313

I'm sure I have it somewhere in the house, but can't remember it.  Didn't notice anything with the hips.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick drawing in the kids who don't want to be in the family pic/hug...


It would be nice if we got a little of this just to break up all the angst and manpain within the family.. The little bit of tumblr batfamily King gave us made the money I spent on 40 odd crap issues worth it

----------


## wvchemteach

> I guess the difference we have is I think that vast majority of those supporting cast members were boring and not very interesting. I don't think investing more time and resources into them will change that. All these runoff characters that Seeley brought back from Dixon's run I didn't care for nor the vast majority of new characters that fill the Nightwing books over the years. Leave them in the past where they belong. I feel like trying to reuse so many of these poor characters will continue to lead to poor stories that don't really go anywhere or do anything. I don't think bringing Clancy back or reusing that computer roommate girl in Higgins Chicago run will make the Nightwing book any better. Like the best stories we get are ones that involve Dick in the DCU interacting with characters that he actually has connections with. Who is Donna Troy story, Grayson, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin, the non Bludhaven issues of Seeley's run, the Oracle focused issues from the early Nightwing era, and so on. Do more of those and less of Dick doing some pointless job in a city that is going nowhere other than trying to emulate Daredevil. 
> 
> I'll bring up the Wolverine series again and I'd prefer something in that mold. Wolverine is also a hero that doesn't really have any plans for a "normal" life or career and originated from a team book. His stories consisted of stories built around him but with him exploring the MCU in various ways. He has a base of operations in the X-Men or Avengers if he needs one but his solo stories focus on him. Dick has that with Gotham and the Titans if he needs a home base, but he should just explore the DCU as a hero and build various stories around that. Like what the Young Justice show is doing. Even the Red Hood and the Outlaws book is doing this and loads of Marvel books.


Everyone has their opinion on what s/he consider interesting and/or boring and I guess the Wolverine comparison might work if we keep 'Ric' "Jason Todd" Grayson, but if we go that route I'm probably out anyhow.


My favorite runs on Nightwing are Dixon's run in Volume 2, Higgins when he finally settled down to world build, Grayson, and Seely's run once he got to Bludhaven. That is what I want more of. To me the lone wolf, no supporting cast reminds me too much of the post-Blockbuster death run in volume 2 followed by the mishmash that came once they moved him to New York and things like the Paragon story in Higgins run.

----------


## Badou

> Everyone has their opinion on what s/he consider interesting and/or boring and I guess the Wolverine comparison might work if we keep 'Ric' "Jason Todd" Grayson, but if we go that route I'm probably out anyhow.
> 
> 
> My favorite runs on Nightwing are Dixon's run in Volume 2, Higgins when he finally settled down to world build, Grayson, and Seely's run once he got to Bludhaven. That is what I want more of. To me the lone wolf, no supporting cast reminds me too much of the post-Blockbuster death run in volume 2 followed by the mishmash that came once they moved him to New York and things like the Paragon story in Higgins run.


The Ric story we have now is the opposite of what I want. The Ric story is CONTINUING what I think is bad about Nightwing in that they just stick him back in some city, with useless new characters, and a useless new job. It represents all the things I've been complaining against. It allows DC to isolate him and dismiss his character instead of letting him be active and build up his importance in the DCU the way the Grayson series tried to do or the more interesting parts of Seeley's run where you had a Wally, Superman or Helena show up. Like it wouldn't just be Dick on his own as you have countless established characters around him to support him. You just cut out all the fat. 

The current Deathstroke run is another good example. That book mostly consists of supporting characters that were already established with some new characters mixed in, but the story really isn't built around them. Its arcs have an central ongoing theme but the individual arcs have the freedom to do anything since the character isn't tied down. There is an arc where he teams up with his daughter, an arc where he creates his own young superhero team, an arc where he fights Batman with Damian constantly showing up, and a new arc of him in Arkham. Have an arc where Dick and Damian team up or be there through the whole series, then have an arc where Dick goes to Metropolis for an arc to follow some mystery, an arc where Dick serves as a temporary Green Lantern teaming up with Starfire, an arc where Dick and Wally are going through the multiverse, write a huge Titans story but let it be an arc in Nightwing, and so on. I just don't know how many more stories I can read about Dick going to some city and working as a bartender, or a whatever, while some villain wants to take over some city I don't care about for some nebulous reason all while Dick runs around on rooftops. I feel like I've read that story a thousand times. 

But it is like you said and I get that readers prefer different things. While I am not the biggest fan of creators constantly trying to redo the Dixon era and turn Nightwing into a Daredevil-lite character I get some enjoy it and think it is the best part about the character.

----------


## oasis1313

> The Ric story we have now is the opposite of what I want. The Ric story is CONTINUING what I think is bad about Nightwing in that they just stick him back in some city, with useless new characters, and a useless new job. It represents all the things I've been complaining against. It allows DC to isolate him and dismiss his character instead of letting him be active and build up his importance in the DCU the way the Grayson series tried to do or the more interesting parts of Seeley's run where you had a Wally, Superman or Helena show up. Like it wouldn't just be Dick on his own as you have countless established characters around him to support him. You just cut out all the fat. 
> 
> The current Deathstroke run is another good example. That book mostly consists of supporting characters that were already established with some new characters mixed in, but the story really isn't built around them. Its arcs have an central ongoing theme but the individual arcs have the freedom to do anything since the character isn't tied down. There is an arc where he teams up with his daughter, an arc where he creates his own young superhero team, an arc where he fights Batman with Damian constantly showing up, and a new arc of him in Arkham. Have an arc where Dick and Damian team up or be there through the whole series, then have an arc where Dick goes to Metropolis for an arc to follow some mystery, an arc where Dick serves as a temporary Green Lantern teaming up with Starfire, an arc where Dick and Wally are going through the multiverse, write a huge Titans story but let it be an arc in Nightwing, and so on. I just don't know how many more stories I can read about Dick going to some city and working as a bartender, or a whatever, while some villain wants to take over some city I don't care about for some nebulous reason all while Dick runs around on rooftops. I feel like I've read that story a thousand times. 
> 
> But it is like you said and I get that readers prefer different things. While I am not the biggest fan of creators constantly trying to redo the Dixon era and turn Nightwing into a Daredevil-lite character I get some enjoy it and think it is the best part about the character.


I'd be grateful enough for even that.  The Hobo Ric story is continuing and continuing and continuing with no end in sight.  Didio definitely believes, "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold."

----------


## Badou

> I'd be grateful enough for even that.  The Hobo Ric story is continuing and continuing and continuing with no end in sight.  Didio definitely believes, "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold."


The Ric story will very likely end this summer as DC, the Batman office, and Didio are just forcing the Ric story to keep Dick out of the way while King's Batman story is going on. It is the only reason it exists because King wants to do his Knightfall knockoff, and maybe they needed to keep Dick out of the way for HiC too, but the latter is obviously the biggest reason because King wants Bruce to "suffer" or whatever.

But it just speaks to what Godlike has been saying in that Dick has no future in the Batman office and needs to get out of there.

----------


## WonderNight

It's like I've been saying, send dick to the superman office.

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## oasis1313

> The Ric story will very likely end this summer as DC, the Batman office, and Didio are just forcing the Ric story to keep Dick out of the way while King's Batman story is going on. It is the only reason it exists because King wants to do his Knightfall knockoff, and maybe they needed to keep Dick out of the way for HiC too, but the latter is obviously the biggest reason because King wants Bruce to "suffer" or whatever.
> 
> But it just speaks to what Godlike has been saying in that Dick has no future in the Batman office and needs to get out of there.


I don't see Batman "suffering".  As far as I've been able to tell, nobody in the Bat-Family (besides Barbara and Alfred) have even mentioned it.  With Didio's fanboy bias against the character and his fans, I'm wondering if Dick has a future at DC at all--let alone the Bat-Office.  They don't want him around, maybe give him over to the Elongated Man Office or the Ambush Bug Office.  According to King's statement of having 100 issues in him, that looks like two more years of this abomination.

----------


## Schumiac

> I don't see Batman "suffering".  As far as I've been able to tell, nobody in the Bat-Family (besides Barbara and Alfred) have even mentioned it.  With Didio's fanboy bias against the character and his fans, I'm wondering if Dick has a future at DC at all--let alone the Bat-Office.  They don't want him around, maybe give him over to the Elongated Man Office or the Ambush Bug Office.  According to King's statement of having 100 issues in him, that looks like two more years of this abomination.


Oh but please, Barbara was "reporting" to Batman, so we are to know Papa cares...

Batman is supposed to be "unhinged", with Dick being shot being the final blow, in a masterplan by Bane where he "broke the Bat" again, this time mentally. So he is out there beating KGBeast to death and leaving him to die (debatable), going into Arkham to beat up criminals to get a confession out of them that Bane is behind all these, punching Jim Gordon and allienating the Gotham PD from himself and coming off more and more as a crazy villain himself to them... All of which is supposed to lead to Bane breaking him physically at some point too it seems, where Gotham Girl will kill Batman, i suppose, because King did mention that somewhere in his run before (if he rememebers that. and if he didn't change that narrative..).. Of course all this in between the "breaks" King takes for the "delving into Batman's psyche" issues it is hard to remember how all this is supposed to go back to Dick being shot and not being there to act as emotional support for Batman and help him keep his sanity...

I do hate that Bruce is shown as such a weakling who is so easy to "break" even after all these years...

I DESPISE it that Bruce is supposedly so affected by what happened to Dick -becausee he loves Dick so much- that he is off beating anyone in his path within an inch of their lives, but can't bother to check on his dear son himself, doesn't seem at all concerned that he is homeless and penniless and living like a bum and thinks "maybe this is better for him". 

I do not care to see a story where Bane owns and kills/disposes of Batman yet again (and really repeating Knightfall isnt very original. and taking so long to repeat a story already told kind of comes off lame, but who knows, maybe end result will be shocking and different somehow.. it just hasnt been so far...)

and I HATE that Dick is put on ice like this so that King can freely drug Bruce/Batman down the mud and torture the guy....  

King singlehandedly destroyed the Bat-family. Damian isn't faring that well on his own with no "support" from family either... And I don't really blame King for his, I blame the Bat-Office who allowed one writer to affect so many books and characters this way for so long without a care....

----------


## wvchemteach

> The Ric story we have now is the opposite of what I want. The Ric story is CONTINUING what I think is bad about Nightwing in that they just stick him back in some city, with useless new characters, and a useless new job. It represents all the things I've been complaining against. It allows DC to isolate him and dismiss his character instead of letting him be active and build up his importance in the DCU the way the Grayson series tried to do or the more interesting parts of Seeley's run where you had a Wally, Superman or Helena show up. Like it wouldn't just be Dick on his own as you have countless established characters around him to support him. You just cut out all the fat. 
> 
> The current Deathstroke run is another good example. That book mostly consists of supporting characters that were already established with some new characters mixed in, but the story really isn't built around them. Its arcs have an central ongoing theme but the individual arcs have the freedom to do anything since the character isn't tied down. There is an arc where he teams up with his daughter, an arc where he creates his own young superhero team, an arc where he fights Batman with Damian constantly showing up, and a new arc of him in Arkham. Have an arc where Dick and Damian team up or be there through the whole series, then have an arc where Dick goes to Metropolis for an arc to follow some mystery, an arc where Dick serves as a temporary Green Lantern teaming up with Starfire, an arc where Dick and Wally are going through the multiverse, write a huge Titans story but let it be an arc in Nightwing, and so on. I just don't know how many more stories I can read about Dick going to some city and working as a bartender, or a whatever, while some villain wants to take over some city I don't care about for some nebulous reason all while Dick runs around on rooftops. I feel like I've read that story a thousand times. 
> 
> But it is like you said and I get that readers prefer different things. While I am not the biggest fan of creators constantly trying to redo the Dixon era and turn Nightwing into a Daredevil-lite character I get some enjoy it and think it is the best part about the character.


I have to respectfully disagree. The 'Ric' story is not about putting Dick with a small supporting cast and putting him in a city. It is about making him into Jason Todd combined with the editors not having a clue what to do with Nightwing and them putting one of the more incompetent writers they have when it comes to writing Dick Grayson. This is just like after Devin Greyson run Nightwing into the ground after the Dixon run, killing off the supporting cast and then they put a writer on the book that would rather write Jason Todd than Dick Grayson.

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## dropkickjake

Yeah. Ric is DC trying to milk money out of the nightwing name while still have Dick out of the picture (presumable for the sake of the Batman run). 

I mean, there had to be a better way to do that, but I do think that's the motivation. Having him in Bludhaven with "supporting characters," is really just incidental to laziness and should not be used an example of "Dick protecting a city and having a supporting cast."

But yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. I'd personally like to see a mix of both, like what Seeley was going for. I wasn't particularly interested in Seeley's supporting cast though. I'm not convinced Seeley was either, tbh. I'd also like the globe trotting missions to utilize Spyral more explicitly.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Yeah. Ric is DC trying to milk money out of the nightwing name while still have Dick out of the picture (presumable for the sake of the Batman run). 
> 
> I mean, there had to be a better way to do that, but I do think that's the motivation. Having him in Bludhaven with "supporting characters," is really just incidental to laziness and should not be used an example of "Dick protecting a city and having a supporting cast."
> 
> But yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. I'd personally like to see a mix of both, like what Seeley was going for. I wasn't particularly interested in Seeley's supporting cast though. I'm not convinced Seeley was either, tbh. I'd also like the globe trotting missions to utilize Spyral more explicitly.


I'd love to see Dick still working with Spyral much in the way the Hood was an agent working for them, but still in costume.

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## oasis1313

> Oh but please, Barbara was "reporting" to Batman, so we are to know Papa cares...
> 
> Batman is supposed to be "unhinged", with Dick being shot being the final blow, in a masterplan by Bane where he "broke the Bat" again, this time mentally. So he is out there beating KGBeast to death and leaving him to die (debatable), going into Arkham to beat up criminals to get a confession out of them that Bane is behind all these, punching Jim Gordon and allienating the Gotham PD from himself and coming off more and more as a crazy villain himself to them... All of which is supposed to lead to Bane breaking him physically at some point too it seems, where Gotham Girl will kill Batman, i suppose, because King did mention that somewhere in his run before (if he rememebers that. and if he didn't change that narrative..).. Of course all this in between the "breaks" King takes for the "delving into Batman's psyche" issues it is hard to remember how all this is supposed to go back to Dick being shot and not being there to act as emotional support for Batman and help him keep his sanity...
> 
> I do hate that Bruce is shown as such a weakling who is so easy to "break" even after all these years...
> 
> I DESPISE it that Bruce is supposedly so affected by what happened to Dick -becausee he loves Dick so much- that he is off beating anyone in his path within an inch of their lives, but can't bother to check on his dear son himself, doesn't seem at all concerned that he is homeless and penniless and living like a bum and thinks "maybe this is better for him". 
> 
> I do not care to see a story where Bane owns and kills/disposes of Batman yet again (and really repeating Knightfall isnt very original. and taking so long to repeat a story already told kind of comes off lame, but who knows, maybe end result will be shocking and different somehow.. it just hasnt been so far...)
> ...


It's easy to break things.  Just ask the bull in the china shop.  But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together.  At the moment, King feels like the bull to me:  "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell?  I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?"  Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month.  Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall?  Then what?  Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that?  Day-yum!  Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point.  It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another  just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.

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## wvchemteach

> It's easy to break things.  Just ask the bull in the china shop.  But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together.  At the moment, King feels like the bull to me:  "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell?  I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?"  Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month.  Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall?  Then what?  Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that?  Day-yum!  Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point.  It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another  just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.


As low as you can go... isn't that what Devin Greyson was trying to do to Nightwing during her run and the whole Tarantula on the rooftop?

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## Arsenal

> It's easy to break things.  Just ask the bull in the china shop.  But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together.  At the moment, King feels like the bull to me:  "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell?  I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?"  Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month.  Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall?  Then what?  Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that?  Day-yum!  Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point.  It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another  just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.


It’d be pretty easy to clean up the China shop after the bull left because the bull won’t break a thing.

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## dropkickjake

> It's easy to break things.  Just ask the bull in the china shop.  But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together.  At the moment, King feels like the bull to me:  "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell?  I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?"  Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month.  Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall?  Then what?  Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that?  Day-yum!  Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point.  It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another  just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.


This is pretty much it. "The hero is broken" stories have been a bit... overdone at this point. We don't need another one. We don't need it to outdo the last. Its sorta cheap thrills as far as I'm concerned.

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## byrd156

Dick needs to be more DCU than Batman right now. Those bat roots are important but he needs to find something completely different. Try out some ideas with a fresh writer who wants to explore someone like Dick taking on issues and villains bigger than himself.

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## Schumiac

Seriously, I read about heroes/characters I care about and love, so understandably I am not interested in seeing someone I love tortured continously. It is a given there will be hurt and tragedy along the way, but when comic book writers decide to devote almost all their run into breaking a hero little by little because I guess they are being cool and deep or whatever, it is too much and I don't have the patience for it... In their attempts to break the hero and take him/her to their lowest I think the writers briing themselves low too..


Also, I cringe anytime I hear Devin Grayson's name or of Tarantula. ugh. Here is hoping that woman is never let anywhere near Dick Grayson/Nightwing ever again & Tarantula should remain a forgotten side-character that we can all pretend to never have existed... Those were dark times were Nightwing was being written much better in every other book that wasn't his own title. Of course these are darker times, I guess, as this time around DC made sure Nightwing can't be used in any other title thanks to the amnesia nonsense, and "Dick"/Nightwing isn't even around in his own book... *sigh*

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## Godlike13

Devin Grayson broke Dick down with the intention to build him back up, but took too long. This here is different. Editorial broke Dick down with the intention of then tasking a creator to build him him back up. But this editorial is shit and failed to actually find anyone, leaving Ric as a state of unintentional limbo. There's no plan, there's no ideas, because they couldn't manage to find anyone to try to come up with plans or ideas with this. They made things up as they went, with whatever scraps they could find last minute. Resulting in filler creators and regurgitated ideas. And now this direction is just a filler state on a death march. It gone far too long for a new writer to now come in and make a first impression with it. So even if someone did have genuine idea for something with Ric now, no one is going to give a crap because of the pile of shit they have given us before.

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## oasis1313

> Devin Grayson broke Dick down with the intention to build him back up, but took too long. This here is different. Editorial broke Dick down with the intention of then tasking a creator to build him him back up. But this editorial is shit and failed to actually find anyone, leaving Ric as a state of unintentional limbo. There's no plan, there's no ideas, because they couldn't manage to find anyone to try to come up with plans or ideas with this. They made things up as they went, with whatever scraps they could find last minute. Resulting in filler creators and regurgitated ideas. And now this direction is just a filler state on a death march. It gone far too long for a new writer to now come in and make a first impression with it. So even if someone did have genuine idea for something with Ric now, no one is going to give a crap because of the pile of shit they have given us before.


I don't think Dick/Ric is in any state of unintentional limbo--Didio has used this "new direction" sales drop to justify busting the character into once-monthly instead of bi-weekly.  The next step is the cancellation he's wanted forever, and he'll be able to say that the character has "lost it" and will STAY in Limbo.

----------


## Godlike13

I mean the direction is in a state of unintentional limbo. They missed their widow with Ric, and now its about just filling time till the sales bottom out or a possible relaunch.

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## oasis1313

> I mean the direction is in a state of unintentional limbo. They missed their widow with Ric, and now its about just filling time till the sales bottom out or they relaunch.


Who says there was ever any purpose in this abomination beyond running the book into the ground and making its cancellation a "mercy killing"?  Maybe Didio wants to be able to say, "All the Wingnuts were BEGGING us to stop publishing the book.  The character doesn't have enough fans left to warrant trotting it out again.  We'll just let it rest for, say, another fifty years and maybe by then we'll figure out a direction for it."

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## Badou

> Devin Grayson broke Dick down with the intention to build him back up, but took too long. This here is different. Editorial broke Dick down with the intention of then tasking a creator to build him him back up. But this editorial is shit and failed to actually find anyone, leaving Ric as a state of unintentional limbo. There's no plan, there's no ideas, because they couldn't manage to find anyone to try to come up with plans or ideas with this. They made things up as they went, with whatever scraps they could find last minute. Resulting in filler creators and regurgitated ideas. And now this direction is just a filler state on a death march. It gone far too long for a new writer to now come in and make a first impression with it. So even if someone did have genuine idea for something with Ric now, no one is going to give a crap because of the pile of shit they have given us before.


Pretty much feel the same way. This Ric story I think is worse than the Tarantula story that Grayson did. With the Tarantula story there was thought put in it to try and do something. It failed and was misguided, but with this Ric story there is no care or thought put in it at all. It is a failure on all fronts. From the writers, to the art that is all over the place, to the editorial that have no plan for where to go, and to the management that is forcing this story to stay around for far longer than it should to facilitate King's story. It is a disaster.

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## oasis1313

> Pretty much feel the same way. This Ric story I think is worse than the Tarantula story that Grayson did. With the Tarantula story there was thought put in it to try and do something. It failed and was misguided, but with this Ric story there is no care or thought put in it at all. It is a failure on all fronts. From the writers, to the art that is all over the place, to the editorial that have no plan for where to go, and to the management that is forcing this story to stay around for far longer than it should to facilitate King's story. It is a disaster.


Zatanna should have just said, "Kcid, Emoc kcad!" and that would be that.  Ric is not facilitating King's story now; Batman whupped up on KGBeest so the headshot thang is over and done with in that book anyway.  This is doing nothing but fulfilling Didio's fanboy wish to see this particular character dragged through the mud.  You guys know I tried to give it a chance.

----------


## Badou

> Zatanna should have just said, "Kcid, Emoc kcad!" and that would be that.  Ric is not facilitating King's story now; Batman whupped up on KGBeest so the headshot thang is over and done with in that book anyway.  This is doing nothing but fulfilling Didio's fanboy wish to see this particular character dragged through the mud.  You guys know I tried to give it a chance.


I'm sure Didio is enjoying the Ric story, but King's own story is still the root cause. I know King said in a podcast that he told DC he was going to shoot Dick in the head and there was no stopping him. He then said if editorial didn't like it he would have Zatanna come in the next issue and undo it, but I think that is bullshit from King. It was him just trying to pass the blame but he and everyone knows that the Ric story happened because King wants Bruce to be "suffering" and alone for King's Knightfall knockoff story. He doesn't want Dick around when he "kills" Bruce because he has plans for someone else taking over as Batman probably this Summer when something is scheduled to happen around Batman #75. 

I mean I think it was extremely low of King to shoot Dick in the head and not do any follow up. Like you said the KGBeast thing is already done with and there has been zero mention of Dick in the Batman book, but King doesn't care. He got what he wanted with shooting Dick and the head and setting up Bane "breaking the Bat again" story and anything else is irrelevant to him.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> Seriously, I read about heroes/characters I care about and love, so understandably I am not interested in seeing someone I love tortured continously. It is a given there will be hurt and tragedy along the way, but when comic book writers decide to devote almost all their run into breaking a hero little by little because I guess they are being cool and deep or whatever, it is too much and I don't have the patience for it... In their attempts to break the hero and take him/her to their lowest I think the writers briing themselves low too..


Very well said and you put what I feel exactly. I need to save this quote. Lol.

As a Wally fan I feel this and as a Nightwing fan as well with what is going on with them.

I also feel this is a problem DC has in general and King epitomizes this. It's no wonder he his Didios golden boy now.

----------


## Schumiac

I think the limbo Dick is currently in is because he is supposed to be kept away from Bruce and not help him out till Bane/King is done murdering him... We all know the moment Dick is back to being himself he would be by Bruce's side, trying to help him out...

Lobdell/Nicieza failed miserably in writing the amnesiac Dick story but then I have a feeling they probably got stuck with a job no one wanted. Who would want to write month after month for a character that is amnesiac and isn't allowed to regain his memories anytime soon and so very limited in what "heroics" he can do till DC's special snowflake is done destroying the Bat-world over in his corner?.. The whole concept is very unappealling - you pretty much have little say on what happens to your character, and very little you can do with him given the many restrictions. As a story where the creator had free reign to bring Dick Grayson back to his former glory within a nice story-arc, it may have worked. Someone could pull a real great story of how step by step, with the help of his loved ones, he slowly regains his self. Could have been a story highlighting just how well connected and loved Dick is in the DC universe, with many guests appearences as well as his own willpower and how he is someone who always overcomes tragedy and hardship... But that isn't in the cards for him. Dick is supposed to be in limbo, and cut out from family (especially his father who normally would not just abandon him till he was better) and friends and everything... And the current non-creative team went the worst way they could do about it where the character is renamed, hates his former self and anyone associated with him for some reason and whines all the time and is a total bum.

----------


## Schumiac

> Very well said and you put what I feel exactly. I need to save this quote. Lol.
> 
> As a Wally fan I feel this and as a Nightwing fan as well with what is going on with them.
> 
> I also feel this is a problem DC has in general and King epitomizes this. It's no wonder he his Didios golden boy now.


I remember reading an article criticizing DC on this because one of the comics the idiots released for "free comic book day" was one where they had several of their heroes being maimed and killed... The writer was saying "is this really something you want to boast about DC?" pointing out that DC was really notorious for how bad they treat their heroes in their attempt to be the "serious" comics company, and that maybe they should have toned down on the violence and maiming on a special comic done for a day that is often associated with children and making them see how awesome and fun comics are. Because, yeah, seeing a hero lose a limb etc is not really a great incentive to start following that guy's title or read anything that company produces tbh...

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> I remember reading an article criticizing DC on this because one of the comics the idiots released for "free comic book day" was one where they had several of their heroes being maimed and killed... The writer was saying "is this really something you want to boast about DC?" pointing out that DC was really notorious for how bad they treat their heroes in their attempt to be the "serious" comics company, and that maybe they should have toned down on the violence and maiming on a special comic done for a day that is often associated with children and making them see how awesome and fun comics are. Because, yeah, seeing a hero lose a limb etc is not really a great incentive to start following that guy's title or read anything that company produces tbh...


Was it Future's End? Because, holy crap that was bad on so many levels. And definitely not good for an entry point.

----------


## nightbird

> I think the limbo Dick is currently in is because he is supposed to be kept away from Bruce and not help him out till Bane/King is done murdering him... We all know the moment Dick is back to being himself he would be by Bruce's side, trying to help him out...
> 
> Lobdell/Nicieza failed miserably in writing the amnesiac Dick story but then I have a feeling they probably got stuck with a job no one wanted. Who would want to write month after month for a character that is amnesiac and isn't allowed to regain his memories anytime soon and so very limited in what "heroics" he can do till DC's special snowflake is done destroying the Bat-world over in his corner?.. The whole concept is very unappealling - you pretty much have little say on what happens to your character, and very little you can do with him given the many restrictions. As a story where the creator had free reign to bring Dick Grayson back to his former glory within a nice story-arc, it may have worked. Someone could pull a real great story of how step by step, with the help of his loved ones, he slowly regains his self. Could have been a story highlighting just how well connected and loved Dick is in the DC universe, with many guests appearences as well as his own willpower and how he is someone who always overcomes tragedy and hardship... But that isn't in the cards for him. Dick is supposed to be in limbo, and cut out from family (especially his father who normally would not just abandon him till he was better) and friends and everything... And the current non-creative team went the worst way they could do about it where the character is renamed, hates his former self and anyone associated with him for some reason and whines all the time and is a total bum.


I honestly hardly believe  that even if Dick wasn’t limited by editors writers would go (or could go) that way. With New 52 Dick lost his previous meaning to DCU and Batfamily.

----------


## nightbird

Btw, with Deathstorke and Jericho Ravager is also coming to second season of Titans. I wonder if we will see some mentor/mentee ark between Rose and Dick or not, considering that Titans version of him darker and not quite in his Nightwing mentality yet.

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## oasis1313

> Btw, with Deathstorke and Jericho Ravager is also coming to second season of Titans. I wonder if we will see some mentor/mentee ark between Rose and Dick or not, considering that Titans version of him darker and not quite in his Nightwing mentality yet.


Jericho and Ravager, or Jericho/Ravager?

----------


## Mataza

I liked the tarantula development. Didn't understand why dick was attracted to this loud and violent woman, but it had potential. I hated that it was sweeped under the rug.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I liked the tarantula development. Didn't understand why dick was attracted to this loud and violent woman, but it had potential. I hated that it was sweeped under the rug.


Yeah, I'm with you, actually. I think she had real potential as a rouge, but she is also so central to the toxicity towards the Devin Grayson run that I think she might be unsalvageable.

----------


## nightbird

> Jericho and Ravager, or Jericho/Ravager?


Jericho and Rose. Considering that Slade will be main villain for 2nd season I guess we will see his kids enough to make them form some kind of relationship with Titans.

Actually, despite my dislike for Deathstoke, I like that they using him as Titans villain instead of trying to pass him as Bats villian in DCEU.

----------


## Mataza

> Yeah, I'm with you, actually. I think she had real potential as a rouge, but she is also so central to the toxicity towards the Devin Grayson run that I think she might be unsalvageable.


She had potential as a ruthless vigilante. A way to challenge Dick in a way he just isn't challenged.

Morally and ethically. Turn his charm and his treatment of pretty women against him. Thematically consistent with dick being a player of sorts.

But no, if there's a character that's more stagnant than Batman is it's Nightwing.

----------


## dropkickjake

> She had potential as a ruthless vigilante. A way to challenge Dick in a way he just isn't challenged.
> 
> Morally and ethically. Turn his charm and his treatment of pretty women against him. Thematically consistent with dick being a player of sorts.
> 
> But no, if there's a character that's more stagnant than Batman is it's Nightwing.


Yeah, the potential is there for sure. She could be a unique take on what Catwoman is to Batman.

But imagine you're the writer for Nightwing. Is bringing back Tarantula, maybe the most hated character and the icon of the maybe the most hated run in the books history, a risk you want to take? Are you going to risk the backlash from the fans? I'm not sure I would want to be the guy that did that.

----------


## Godlike13

That is what they did with Tarantula though. That’s the story they told with her. She challenged Dick morally and ethically, and played on his weakness and guilt. Which ultimately came to a conclusion with repercussions that sent him on a seemingly never ending character journey to find himself. Which took too damn long, wasn’t interesting (Dick Grayson the crippled mobster is almost right there with Ric the filthy hobo), and never actually went anywhere cause they ultimately just blew it all up, literally. I mean Nightwing can indeed be stagnant, but not because they didn’t try and tell that story again.

----------


## nightbird

> She had potential as a ruthless vigilante. A way to challenge Dick in a way he just isn't challenged.
> 
> Morally and ethically. Turn his charm and his treatment of pretty women against him. Thematically consistent with dick being a player of sorts.
> 
> But no, if there's a character that's more stagnant than Batman is it's Nightwing.


I fail to see how Tarantula supposed to challenge Nightwing more than any his morally ambiguous team ups with anti-heroes and villains or attempts to redeem criminals. And I especially fail to see how her “challenging him” suppose to cure Nightwing from his so-called stagnant stage.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b15/1902/96/88edb53e3416.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Babs

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bthz403FCfx/

[IMG]https://b.***********/b25/1902/5e/02393b47d1df.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing 
(lol, his hair)

https://uncharted-constellations.tum...-dude-portrait

----------


## dropkickjake

> I fail to see how Tarantula supposed to challenge Nightwing more than any his morally ambiguous team ups with anti-heroes and villains or attempts to redeem criminals. And I especially fail to see how her “challenging him” suppose to cure Nightwing from his so-called stagnant stage.


I'd say that she could challenge him in a unique way, but that should be able to be said of ALL his rogues. She is unique, but not more unique than the rest or anything.

----------


## Godlike13

She did challenge his morals. More then few other ever have, she ignited huge character turmoil that seemed like it would never end.

----------


## Mataza

> I fail to see how Tarantula supposed to challenge Nightwing more than any his morally ambiguous team ups with anti-heroes and villains or attempts to redeem criminals. And I especially fail to see how her “challenging him” suppose to cure Nightwing from his so-called stagnant stage.


Could have started a phase where he was afraid of getting close with women. Could have helped the character mature, revise his fear of commitment. 

Could have provoked a fallout with Bruce, to brought them together to work it out. And then a bit of closure.

The biggest problem with the story is that it didn't go anywhere.

----------


## Godlike13

I feel like you didn’t actually read Grayson’s run.

----------


## oasis1313

> She had potential as a ruthless vigilante. A way to challenge Dick in a way he just isn't challenged.
> 
> Morally and ethically. Turn his charm and his treatment of pretty women against him. Thematically consistent with dick being a player of sorts.
> 
> But no, if there's a character that's more stagnant than Batman is it's Nightwing.


Rape is abhorrent.  It's not a plot device.  No character is so "stagnant" that she/he needs to be raped to get "freshened" up.  It shouldn't be so casually bandied about anyway--particularly in a "funnybook" with an underaged audience.  Dick Grayson is not a player; he doesn't use his charm/good looks to entice random women; he's a good person.  He didn't deserve Tarantua.  That run of books was SICKENING and anyone who wrote such a thing should be consigned to the professional dustbin--and her editor along with her.

----------


## Mataza

> Rape is abhorrent.


So is murder, and betrayal and around a 100 bad things. 
What i will grant you is that nightwing is no place to try to explore these themes.




> No character is so "stagnant" that she/he needs to be raped to get "freshened" up.


You guys always see this from a PR standpoint. Probably because thats literally all you care about, that the book sells so the character grows in popularity. I see it from storytelling standpoint. 





> Dick Grayson is not a player; he doesn't use his charm/good looks to entice random women


Yes he does, he has.
He has never done it with bad intentions, but he has used his looks to get what he wants.




> He didn't deserve Tarantula.


Yeal, well. Bruce didnt deserve his parents getting shot.




> That run of books was SICKENING and anyone who wrote such a thing should be consigned to the professional dustbin--and her editor along with her.


I didnt like the run, but it would have been much better if the set up paid off.
Sides, its not like he turned into paralax, destroyed a whole continuity or hit his wife.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m quite confused here. The repercussions of Tarantula resulted in a phase of self imposed exile and provoked a fallout with Babs. One of his most important relationships at that time. Your claims of what they could have done with Tarantula is more or less what they did, and it lead to pretty much what you claim it could have lead to.

----------


## Mataza

> I’m quite confused here. The repercussions of Tarantula resulted in a phase of self imposed exile and provoked a fallout with Babs. One of his most important relationships at that time. Your claims of what they could have done with Tarantula is more or less what they did, and it lead to pretty much what you claim it could have lead to.


All i remember is a "we will talk later" from bruce and absolutely nothing else. Nightwing was back with the fam for the next event if i remember correctly. Tho its been a while since i read the whole thing.

Tho if you say so im probably misremembering.

----------


## Badou

Dick's horrible New 52 Robin costume made another appearance in the recent Batman issue. I feel obligated to point it out whenever it rears its ugly head, lol. 

It looks so weird seeing it while a Wally is in his classic Kid Flash costume. The two don't mesh well.

----------


## byrd156

> Dick's horrible New 52 Robin costume made another appearance in the recent Batman issue. I feel obligated to point it out whenever it rears its ugly head, lol. 
> 
> It looks so weird seeing it while a Wally is in his classic Kid Flash costume. The two don't mesh well.


Yeah it looks awful but the scene was awesome.

----------


## Godlike13

> All i remember is a "we will talk later" from bruce and absolutely nothing else. Nightwing was back with the fam for the next event if i remember correctly. Tho its been a while since i read the whole thing.
> 
> Tho if you say so im probably misremembering.


They don’t talk later, Dick quits and leave his Nightwing suit. Then goes into self imposed exile. We got like two years of ramifications from what Tarantula did.

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick's horrible New 52 Robin costume made another appearance in the recent Batman issue. I feel obligated to point it out whenever it rears its ugly head, lol. 
> 
> It looks so weird seeing it while a Wally is in his classic Kid Flash costume. The two don't mesh well.


I feel like the suit is just another example of them not really caring. They payed for the design and gave it the ok, and now its just what they have regardless if readers care for it or not.

----------


## byrd156

> I feel like the suit is just another example of them not really caring. The payed for the design and gave it the ok, and now it just what they have regardless if readers care for it or not.


It messes with DC's Iconography. It's such an ugly design, if they weren't going the pixie boots they had the chance to reinvent what the new Iconic Robin suit would be. And we get this in place of it.

----------


## Arsenal

> Dick's horrible New 52 Robin costume made another appearance in the recent Batman issue. I feel obligated to point it out whenever it rears its ugly head, lol. 
> 
> It looks so weird seeing it while a Wally is in his classic Kid Flash costume. The two don't mesh well.


What’s so bad about the new 52 Robin suit? Is it really that different from the original one beside the pants?

----------


## Mataza

> They don’t talk later, Dick quits and leave his Nightwing suit. Then goes into self imposed exile. We got like two years of ramifications from what Tarantula did.


Then forget i said anything. I stand corrected.

----------


## byrd156

> What’s so bad about the new 52 Robin suit? Is it really that different from the original one beside the pants?


The mask, the colors, the color balance, no collar on the costume, etc.

----------


## Pohzee

On a semi-related note, my brother and I spent a day the other day "Dicking" around with some Robin costumes that felt modern but incorporated aspects of Dick's various past costumes. We toyed with things like long red sleeves and Earth One belt, a more golden-age Robin Hood inspired look, some aspects from the animated Judas Contract movie, and other elements from other Robin costumes.

Ironically, it made me come to the realization that Damian's original Robin costume is pretty much what I was picturing as a modern DickRobin suit. It has a yellow cape, a hood (like Robin Hood), it keeps the tunic, green gloves and boots, but has sleeving along the legs and arms.

Edit: Obviously this is a suit for when Dick is further along as Robin, sometime like age 16~Hudson U.

----------


## nightbird

> Dick's horrible New 52 Robin costume made another appearance in the recent Batman issue. I feel obligated to point it out whenever it rears its ugly head, lol. 
> 
> It looks so weird seeing it while a Wally is in his classic Kid Flash costume. The two don't mesh well.


The fact that it’s “unfinished version of Robin’s suit” and in continuity Batman officially made his sidekick run around in it for all those years makes it even less appealing.

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone else impressed how successful Dick Grayson becomes in the future? Unlike rest of the Bat family, he really goes beyond the mask. An orphaned circus boy becoming a mayor or the head of a nationwide police force is unbelievable. Really shows that Dick Grayson is what makes Nightwing, not the other way around. Very inspirational.

----------


## yohyoi

Also, looks like Ric will continue for 2019. Sales are good. Jurgens will probably try to connect Ric with Batman Beyond (He is writing both). My advise to my fellow fans is patience.

https://youtu.be/jyQ_vjI3Wuw

----------


## Arsenal

> Anyone else impressed how successful Dick Grayson becomes in the future? Unlike rest of the Bat family, he really goes beyond the mask. An orphaned circus boy becoming a mayor or the head of a nationwide police force is unbelievable. Really shows that Dick Grayson is what makes Nightwing, not the other way around. Very inspirational.


It’s really not that high of a bar.

Most of the bat family’s future is either bad (Tim), rarely disused (Jason) or about what you expect (Damian)

The only people ever really given positive potential futures are Babs or Dick.

----------


## oasis1313

> It’s really not that high of a bar.
> 
> Most of the bat family’s future is either bad (Tim), rarely disused (Jason) or about what you expect (Damian)
> 
> The only people ever really given positive potential futures are Babs or Dick.


Tim's future is bad?  He's got Bendis as his champion.  Dick, Jason, and Damian have no big-name protectors.   Tim has the best future of all of them with the biggest writer in comics as his fanboy.

----------


## Badou

> Whats so bad about the new 52 Robin suit? Is it really that different from the original one beside the pants?


It looks like such a mess. With all these parts that don't really match and feel stuck together. We had that stupid crotch arrow for years too with it. There is nothing about it that feels classic or iconic when I look at it. I get that they wanted to move on from the shorts and pixie boots, but they didn't have to throw up something that looks terrible. They could have just made minor upgrades like give him boots and pants to the classic look to fix it instead of doing this bizarre overhaul. 

Another thing is the red vest part. They didn't need to change that. It is also the part that Damian took when he stole the classic Robin costume to create his own Robin costume. Eliminating that kind of messed with that whole story about Damian taking it and using it as his own.




> Anyone else impressed how successful Dick Grayson becomes in the future? Unlike rest of the Bat family, he really goes beyond the mask. An orphaned circus boy becoming a mayor or the head of a nationwide police force is unbelievable. Really shows that Dick Grayson is what makes Nightwing, not the other way around. Very inspirational.


I very much dislike either of those outcomes, especially the mayor of Bludhaven, but my feelings of Bludhaven are very well known here, lol. I cringe at the thought of Jurgens trying to make his Batman Beyond fantasy of Dick as mayor of Bludhaven a reality. I'm hoping Jurgens is only on for a few months to finish out the mandated Ric crap.

----------


## oasis1313

At this point, I would just be grateful for an end to the Ric stuff.  And somebody here just said it's going on another year?

----------


## Fergus

> Its really not that high of a bar.
> 
> Most of the bat familys future is either bad (Tim), rarely disused (Jason) or about what you expect (Damian)
> 
> The only people ever really given positive potential futures are Babs or Dick.


Damian over comes the batsuit that sent him and terry crazy, saves Bruce and Terry and goes off to turn the LOA into a force for gobal good.  Plus he makes up with his father, inspires a Robin, gets a brand new family and is getting a batcave party with streamers. Sounds inspirational and positive to me.

I like that Dick gets a family and normalcy in later life.

----------


## Fergus

> On a semi-related note, my brother and I spent a day the other day "Dicking" around with some Robin costumes that felt modern but incorporated aspects of Dick's various past costumes. We toyed with things like long red sleeves and Earth One belt, a more golden-age Robin Hood inspired look, some aspects from the animated Judas Contract movie, and other elements from other Robin costumes.
> 
> Ironically, it made me come to the realization that Damian's original Robin costume is pretty much what I was picturing as a modern DickRobin suit. It has a yellow cape, a hood (like Robin Hood), it keeps the tunic, green gloves and boots, but has sleeving along the legs and arms.
> 
> Edit: Obviously this is a suit for when Dick is further along as Robin, sometime like age 16~Hudson U.


I like that middle one. I'm not a fan of the leotard or undies on male superheroes

----------


## Fergus

Dick Grayson Nightwing







https://twitter.com/SATORIXXXIA

----------


## Ascended

Happy 50 pages Wingnuts!

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick Grayson Nightwing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/SATORIXXXIA


Oh, such beautiful fan-art!!!  And here I was, thinking Jason had that market covered!  Please, more!!!!!!

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, if they wanted to get rid of the green speedo (understandable), just give him long green pants and black boots. Or long yellow pants and green boots like the old Earth 2 Robin suit. Either way, keep the red vest and green short sleeves and the yellow collard cape. 

n52 robin suit is just hella busy.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Btw, with *Deathstorke* and Jericho Ravager is also coming to second season of Titans. I wonder if we will see some mentor/mentee ark between Rose and Dick or not, considering that Titans version of him darker and not quite in his Nightwing mentality yet.


I actually laughed out loud at your typo imaging a stork in a Deathstroke costume...thank you for that imagery!   HAHA

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

They really should've just used the Teen Titans cartoon design with a little less stylization or the Young Justice design but with more green. Both those designs had varying degrees of mainstream appreciation, so while neither were as popular as the original design, they would've been perfect for the New 52.

One of my favourite takes on the classic design is actually also by Bourassa, it's the Robin design used in the Judas Contract movie. It's just amazing, imo.
Robin design.jpg

----------


## dropkickjake

yeah thats pretty great. Updated but still classic.

----------


## nightbird

> I actually laughed out loud at your typo imaging a stork in a Deathstroke costume...thank you for that imagery!   HAHA


oops looool :Wink:  my bad  :Stick Out Tongue: 
I blame my phone for everything xD

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c00/1902/53/65ebf4d76f38.jpg[/IMG]

https://nebeauxla.tumblr.com/post/18...the-darkness-i

----------


## Pohzee

> They really should've just used the Teen Titans cartoon design with a little less stylization or the Young Justice design but with more green. Both those designs had varying degrees of mainstream appreciation, so while neither were as popular as the original design, they would've been perfect for the New 52.
> 
> One of my favourite takes on the classic design is actually also by Bourassa, it's the Robin design used in the Judas Contract movie. It's just amazing, imo.
> Robin design.jpg


That really is the best.

----------


## Arsenal

> Damian over comes the batsuit that sent him and terry crazy, saves Bruce and Terry and goes off to turn the LOA into a force for gobal good.  Plus he makes up with his father, inspires a Robin, gets a brand new family and is getting a batcave party with streamers. Sounds inspirational and positive to me.
> 
> I like that Dick gets a family and normalcy in later life.


Like I said, that’s more or less what you’d expect Damian’s future to be.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Damian over comes the batsuit that sent him and terry crazy, saves Bruce and Terry and goes off to turn the LOA into a force for gobal good.  Plus he makes up with his father, inspires a Robin, gets a brand new family and is getting a batcave party with streamers. Sounds inspirational and positive to me.
> 
> I like that Dick gets a family and normalcy in later life.


And grandpappy Ra's is in a retirement home for Super Villains, playing chess with Vandal Savage and Bane.

----------


## oasis1313

Where is this from?  Ten characters.

----------


## Elmo

Anyone have personal favorite Dick Grayson battling / fighting pictures? Any great moment where he is showing off his fighting skill....if you do please send them my way !

----------


## Fergus

> Where is this from?  Ten characters.


Raise of the demon arc Rebirth Batman Beyond

----------


## Fergus

> They really should've just used the Teen Titans cartoon design with a little less stylization or the Young Justice design but with more green. Both those designs had varying degrees of mainstream appreciation, so while neither were as popular as the original design, they would've been perfect for the New 52.
> 
> One of my favourite takes on the classic design is actually also by Bourassa, it's the Robin design used in the Judas Contract movie. It's just amazing, imo.
> Attachment 78259


I like this but make the cape black he looks less like a target and give him boots that don't resemble socks.

I think it reflects badly on Batman and the concept of Robin to have him in bright Yellow while Batman is stealth in dark colours. It's not practical or safe .

----------


## Fergus

> Anyone have personal favorite Dick Grayson battling / fighting pictures? Any great moment where he is showing off his fighting skill....if you do please send them my way !




I think this is a cover but i love it.

trying to find the Nightwing Panel where he is fighting under a street lamp [becasue of course he is]

----------


## byrd156

> It looks like such a mess. With all these parts that don't really match and feel stuck together. We had that stupid crotch arrow for years too with it. There is nothing about it that feels classic or iconic when I look at it. I get that they wanted to move on from the shorts and pixie boots, but they didn't have to throw up something that looks terrible. They could have just made minor upgrades like give him boots and pants to the classic look to fix it instead of doing this bizarre overhaul. 
> 
> Another thing is the red vest part. They didn't need to change that. It is also the part that Damian took when he stole the classic Robin costume to create his own Robin costume. Eliminating that kind of messed with that whole story about Damian taking it and using it as his own.
> 
> 
> 
> I very much dislike either of those outcomes, especially the mayor of Bludhaven, but my feelings of Bludhaven are very well known here, lol. I cringe at the thought of Jurgens trying to make his Batman Beyond fantasy of Dick as mayor of Bludhaven a reality. I'm hoping Jurgens is only on for a few months to finish out the mandated Ric crap.


They literally could just use The Batman redesign from that animated series. It was literally about reinventions of the Gold/Silver age designs. Just flip the R colors on it and give Dick his classic Robin hairstyle, it would be perfect.

----------


## Godlike13

All Dick's Robin needed was green pants, but because of the new 52 they had to overdo it. Leaving us with a Robin suit with far too much going on.

----------


## Badou

I don't get why they don't fix it. Rocafort was the one that designed it and he had a lot of bad designs in the New 52 that have been changed by now. Raven doesn't wear her full bird costume anymore and Jason doesn't wear his red helmet with the nose and lips on it anymore either. All it needed was simple changes which is what makes it so frustrating. Maybe it does speak to a lack of care for the character internally at DC with the current management.

----------


## Drako

> I don't get why they don't fix it. Rocafort was the one that designed it and he had a lot of bad designs in the New 52 that have been changed by now. Raven doesn't wear her full bird costume anymore and Jason doesn't wear his red helmet with the nose and lips on it anymore either. All it needed was simple changes which is what makes it so frustrating. Maybe it does speak to a lack of care for the character internally at DC with the current management.


i thought Ed Barrows did the design, he was the artist at the time.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't get why they don't fix it. Rocafort was the one that designed it and he had a lot of bad designs in the New 52 that have been changed by now. Raven doesn't wear her full bird costume anymore and Jason doesn't wear his red helmet with the nose and lips on it anymore either. All it needed was simple changes which is what makes it so frustrating. Maybe it does speak to a lack of care for the character internally at DC with the current management.


I think it's probably just that creatively there's less of an incentive to change Dick's Robin costume because it's not supposed to be a modern day, ongoing, look compared to other characters and it's only occasionally seen in flashbacks.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't get why they don't fix it. Rocafort was the one that designed it and he had a lot of bad designs in the New 52 that have been changed by now. Raven doesn't wear her full bird costume anymore and Jason doesn't wear his red helmet with the nose and lips on it anymore either. All it needed was simple changes which is what makes it so frustrating. Maybe it does speak to a lack of care for the character internally at DC with the current management.


Cause they don't care. Not really. Same reason Red Hood and Batgirl got trendy new designs while Ric looks like boring trash. Its same reason they're not bothering to fix this Ric shit show even. At the end of the day they don't care. Its what they have around and to change or fix it would require more time or effort then they're interested in putting in.

----------


## Badou

> i thought Ed Barrows did the design, he was the artist at the time.


It was Rocafort. He was tasked with the redesign even though Borrows was the main artist on Nightwing then. I remember discussing it when they said it on twitter or some interview back when the design was first revealed. Rocafort talked about how it was exciting to be designing the new first Robin costume. Been so long I don't know where to find it now though. 




> I think it's probably just that creatively there's less of an incentive to change Dick's Robin costume because it's not supposed to be a modern day, ongoing, look compared to other characters and it's only occasionally seen in flashbacks.


It is just so striking when you see the old Titans in their classic costumes and Dick is in some modern messy redesign. It is a constant reminder of the New 52 that feels like it is never going away.

----------


## oasis1313

> Cause they don't care. Not really. Same reason Red Hood and Batgirl got trendy new designs while Ric looks like boring trash. Its same reason they're not bothering to fix this Ric shit show even. At the end of the day they don't care. Its what they have around and to change or fix it would require more time or effort then they're interested in putting in.


It may be worse than "don't care".  When the Publisher is actively poisoning the well, nobody expects Evian Water.  I've heard it suggested (wrongly) as a method of housebreaking a dog that you rub its nose in its poopy then whack it between the ears with a rolled-up newspaper.  This is how Didio is training the Wingnuts to abandon all hope.

----------


## K7P5V

> Anyone have personal favorite Dick Grayson battling / fighting pictures? Any great moment where he is showing off his fighting skill....if you do please send them my way !


My personal favorite Dick Grayson battling/fighting pictures.
nightwing5.1.jpg

nightwing5.2.jpg

nightwing5.jpg
All of them from my favorite _Nightwing_ artist: Scott McDaniel.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Re: Tarantula, no she’s not a plot tool that can be used against Dick. Devin Grayson wrote a plain OOC Dick Grayson and I don’t talk about just the player part. He HAS been morally and mentally challenged before her in his 60 years of existence. just in different ways that actuallly made sense for his character. For example he needs to take anger management class and  I would say he’s UNREINVENTED/UNDER developed/UNEXPLOITED in modern years because DC editorial don’t care about him more than isn’t Challenged. It’s not widely acknowledged that his moral challenge is very similar to that of Bruce : integrity , failure, no killing code , people dying and communication and classism, and the difficulty he has looking at a thing outside of his perspective, and last but not least, the carrying on despite having no rewards for the work. Because it’s similar and so codependent on Bruce’s own, they rather use Bruce for those and reduced his story and issues down to looks and romance and teenage angst.

The way rape was used against him, it’s framed as a character flaw, that he’s a player so somebody has to give him a lesson? No his talent and also flaw is he’s an actor. Challenge that actor personality. Make him fail to act , like in the NTT era, but now it’s akso compromising his identity. Expose his insecurities about who he is: deep down he thinks he’s just a charity case abd not some charming Badass. Challenge him so that he realised he’s right. He owes Bruce anything. Or better, expose his identity and the entire Family , and makes it his story rather than Bruce. Hell the Golden age Dick has more thought about those than the modern one. 

Or , if it has to be drama, make him travel through the multiverse. Challenge him through his jealousy with every other version of Dicks that had it better than him and treated better and married and happy than him.

----------


## nightbird

But there is nothing entertaining or pleasant in seeing Dick being miserable.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b26/1902/1f/b77529f7ff9e.jpg[/IMG]

http://lonelyplaceofdying.tumblr.com...ial-6-honestly

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/0yongyong0tata

----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/0yongyong0tata

----------


## wvchemteach

Graysonvsmidnighter1.jpgGraysonvsmidnighter2.jpgGraysonvsmidnighter3.jpg

I loved this rivalry turned allies in Grayson.

----------


## dietrich

> Graysonvsmidnighter1.jpgGraysonvsmidnighter2.jpgGraysonvsmidnighter3.jpg
> 
> I loved this rivalry turned allies in Grayson.


These two are my crack ship

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Anyone have personal favorite Dick Grayson battling / fighting pictures? Any great moment where he is showing off his fighting skill....if you do please send them my way !


I often go back to Nightwing #24 from the Rebirth run, that was all action and it was amazing. Still want that whole thing adapted to live-action one day.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> But there is nothing entertaining or pleasant in seeing Dick being miserable.


?

So much of Wolfman's NTT was about Dick and the other Titans dealing with their insecurities and how they grow as people and heroes. The entire first arc of Morrison's B&R is about Dick dealing with his insecurities, the rest of which was showing off how amazing he is now that he's over it. 70% of SeeKing's Grayson run was Dick dealing with his insecurities, and the rest was him being super confident and cool because he's just that good at what he does.

----------


## nightbird

> ?
> 
> So much of Wolfman's NTT was about Dick and the other Titans dealing with their insecurities and how they grow as people and heroes. The entire first arc of Morrison's B&R is about Dick dealing with his insecurities, the rest of which was showing off how amazing he is now that he's over it. 70% of SeeKing's Grayson run was Dick dealing with his insecurities, and the rest was him being super confident and cool because he's just that good at what he does.


Well we always here complain about Dick being stagnant. I see no pleasure in reading about exact same insecurities Dick usually faces. I actually want him finally pass that phase in his life for good in comics(!). And if we just must have some heartbreaking drama, I want him to move on to be miserable about something else, except himself and who he is. Despite how popular this theme with Dick Grayson as a character.

----------


## nightbird

> 


I really miss Dick and Damian just interacting with each other yet along sharing some meaningful time together.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d40/1902/ae/42f1619e3a79.jpg[/IMG]

Another photo of Brenton Thwaites as Dick Grayson/Robin

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtoOXqCgA-q/

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d40/1902/ae/42f1619e3a79.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Another photo of Brenton Thwaites as Dick Grayson/Robin
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BtoOXqCgA-q/


What a waste of good casting and costume design on such a terrible show.

----------


## Pohzee

> What a waste of good casting and costume design on such a terrible show.


I know its not a high bar, but Titans is DC's best live action show by mile. And IMO it may be better than every entry of the DCEU.

----------


## Jackalope89

> What a waste of good casting and costume design on such a terrible show.


Hopefully season 2 will be less dreary and show actual character growth rather than focus on the same problem every other episode.

----------


## Schumiac

For me it is as simple as this: Rape is a very sensitive issue and it should not be used for cheap shock value where the primary concern for the writer is to break a character to pieces, nothing more. A writer who is incapable of handling it with the care and respect and seriousness it deserves has no business touching on the subject and Devin Grayson most certainly didn't have what it takes to do so. 

And she made things only worse by Dick almost marrying his rapist and then the whole rape issue being dropped with no real repercussions or anything. Tarantula was jailed for Blockbuster. Dick pretty much ignored the fact he was raped and it got swept under the rug, like it never ever happened. And then there were her interviews where (if memory serves), she first tried to deny what happened was rape, and then tried to make it sound like Dick was a horrid boyfriend who kind of was cheating on Babs with the Tarantula thing and in a way had it coming for associationg with such a bad girl in the first place and not being careful enough around her... Something to that affect.... If you are going to have the character entrusted to you to write, raped, at least have the backbone and decency to admit to it and properly stand by your decision and explain it. So that we can assume you gave it some thought beyond "hmmm. what other horrid thing can I do to this character? Oh, I know. Rape!" And I don't for a second believe Devin Grayson had at any point had any intention to revisit the issue and handle it for real. She had it in there as just another means to break Dick and to be shocking, and she didn't expect the backlash which is why she first tried to deny it, and then was trying to act like she would have dealt with it all if she had more time blah blah... 

I remember she was considered a decent writer when writing Gotham Knights... I have to assume she was being heavily edited and kept in check while writing that and then was simply allowed to run wild with Nightwing where editorial didn't really care  much about what she was doing. Left on her own devices she is not good and does turn into a second-rate fanfic writer... She used to boast about submitting her stories late to escape editorial intervention, -except for the times she wanted to blame editorial intervention for her failings, that is-... I see that as another sign of editorial not really bothering with checking her work when she was on Nightwing. Because, yeah, they don't care about Nightwing...)

----------


## byrd156

> I know its not a high bar, but Titans is DC's best live action show by mile. And IMO it may be better than every entry of the DCEU.


I'd rather watch all the CW shows on repeat for the next thousand years than rewatch Titans again. At least those shows have actual plot to them, yeah they are generally dumb and uninspired but the flow makes sense. Titans makes no sense thematically, in the editing, in the writing. It boggles my mind that it was as bad as it was.

----------


## Schumiac

I liked Titans and am hopeful for its second season... Season One had pacing issues, that is for sure. If they can fix that for season 2, it will do much better... All of S1 seemed to be about introducing the team who were all in one way or another at a loss about who they are and what they are themselves... S2 needs to show the team working together & -I think each character needs to have a better understanding and acceptance of who they are (obviously they wont have all the answers to that yet, but definitely need to see some growth).

----------


## Drako

I liked Titans and had a great time watching it.
I'm not a great fan of the cliffhanger ending though.

But can't wait for season 2.

----------


## 9th.

Titans is good, much better than the lowpoints of the Arrowverse.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> For me it is as simple as this: Rape is a very sensitive issue and it should not be used for cheap shock value where the primary concern for the writer is to break a character to pieces, nothing more. A writer who is incapable of handling it with the care and respect and seriousness it deserves has no business touching on the subject and Devin Grayson most certainly didn't have what it takes to do so. 
> 
> And she made things only worse by Dick almost marrying his rapist and then the whole rape issue being dropped with no real repercussions or anything. Tarantula was jailed for Blockbuster. Dick pretty much ignored the fact he was raped and it got swept under the rug, like it never ever happened. And then there were her interviews where (if memory serves), she first tried to deny what happened was rape, and then tried to make it sound like Dick was a horrid boyfriend who kind of was cheating on Babs with the Tarantula thing and in a way had it coming for associationg with such a bad girl in the first place and not being careful enough around her... Something to that affect.... If you are going to have the character entrusted to you to write, raped, at least have the backbone and decency to admit to it and properly stand by your decision and explain it. So that we can assume you gave it some thought beyond "hmmm. what other horrid thing can I do to this character? Oh, I know. Rape!" And I don't for a second believe Devin Grayson had at any point had any intention to revisit the issue and handle it for real. She had it in there as just another means to break Dick and to be shocking, and she didn't expect the backlash which is why she first tried to deny it, and then was trying to act like she would have dealt with it all if she had more time blah blah... 
> 
> I remember she was considered a decent writer when writing Gotham Knights... I have to assume she was being heavily edited and kept in check while writing that and then was simply allowed to run wild with Nightwing where editorial didn't really care  much about what she was doing. Left on her own devices she is not good and does turn into a second-rate fanfic writer... She used to boast about submitting her stories late to escape editorial intervention, -except for the times she wanted to blame editorial intervention for her failings, that is-... I see that as another sign of editorial not really bothering with checking her work when she was on Nightwing. Because, yeah, they don't care about Nightwing...)


Íts worth noting that Graysons run is around the same time Didio was in office. I believe that he had been letting bad writers to screw Dick up so it’s easier to kill him before he did the same thing to titans in rebirth now.

----------


## Godlike13

Well, I don’t know about that. Devin Grayson was coming off a decent run on Titans. She did seem like a good fit. The initial start of her run wasn’t even bad, it wasn’t till she had him get raped that it really went of the rails and just got lost in misery. And it didn’t help that she had to try and navigate between ties ins and Nightwing Year One to try and get her story back on track. So her whole character journey got drawn out way too long, and ultimately was left incomplete with no pay off. That being said trying to do a Nightwing version of Born Again was probably not the best idea to begin with.

----------


## nightbird

> What a waste of good casting and costume design on such a terrible show.


I see nothing terrible in Titans. I actually really enjoyed it and their version of Dick Grayson despite all the changes. And for everything that show did wrong, it also did a lot of things right. 
The only big issue for me is the fact that they’re trying to introduce everyone though Titans, but hopefully for second season they will finally solely focus on Titans, not the side teams like Doom Patrol and give us more interesting Titans than Hank and Dawn.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a31/1902/2e/3af4543d44a1.jpg[/IMG]

YJ version of Dick Grayson/Robin

http://lonelyplaceofdying.tumblr.com...-your-yj-robin

[IMG]https://a.***********/a08/1902/62/dfca5f3bfa7c.jpg[/IMG]

http://lonelyplaceofdying.tumblr.com...-hop-skip-jump

----------


## yohyoi

Titans was my last year's highlight. It's second only to Daredevil for me. I remember waiting for the episodes to come out every Friday. It was not perfect but it's a very good 1st season. I'm optimistic about this tv series.

----------


## byrd156

Titans had some of the worst editing I have seen since Taken 3.

----------


## Moandinga

I really loved Titans. And I started it with zero expectations. Apart from the final I had no problem with it.

----------


## dietrich

I miss Dick Acrobat Grayson. Get your shit together Ric





https://twitter.com/lolololeel

----------


## dropkickjake

For those of y'all with DCUniverse, they just uploaded the cartoon The Batman. Never seen it, but I'm skipping to season three where Dick first shows up. Anyone seen this?

----------


## Rac7d*

> For those of y'all with DCUniverse, they just uploaded the cartoon The Batman. Never seen it, but I'm skipping to season three where Dick first shows up. Anyone seen this?


Season 4  I believe

----------


## Ascended

> For those of y'all with DCUniverse, they just uploaded the cartoon The Batman. Never seen it, but I'm skipping to season three where Dick first shows up. Anyone seen this?


My son used to watch that. 

I wasn't impressed with it, myself. I recall thinking it had a few interesting ideas and wasn't as bad as everyone was saying it was, but it wasn't exactly good either. And I think it got worse with time too. 

But Im not a cartoon guy; I watch a bunch because I have kids, but I dont usually enjoy any of them unless they're on a YJ level of quality.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Season 4  I believe


listed as three on DCU, but that could be in error.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b37/1902/9b/20d24f41c90f.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a00/1902/99/0f2ec0c57dd6.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtrVxZ7lA5V/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a23/1902/67/97a5251d3b1c.png[/IMG]

Nightwing by Ctreuse Lex
https://www.deviantart.com/ctreuse109


[IMG]https://a.***********/a11/1902/94/8874f8e851c3.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmZkw5BHOaF/

----------


## byrd156

> For those of y'all with DCUniverse, they just uploaded the cartoon The Batman. Never seen it, but I'm skipping to season three where Dick first shows up. Anyone seen this?


It's pretty damn good. Weird Joker design but it feels really unique and wish there was more. Also Scarecrow and Two-Face never show up because of an embargo or something like that.

----------


## oasis1313

Has Nightwing gone back to monthly shipping?

----------


## K7P5V

> For those of y'all with DCUniverse, they just uploaded the cartoon The Batman. Never seen it, but I'm skipping to season three where Dick first shows up. Anyone seen this?


I've seen it, and I thought it was fine. Not as good as BTAS, but it was an all-around entertaining experience.

----------


## Frontier

> I've seen it, and I thought it was fine. Not as good as BTAS, but it was an all-around entertaining experience.


Yeah, you shouldn't go into it expecting B:TAS but I think it's overall a pretty interesting and solid take on the Bat-mythos, and it generally had pretty great action scenes.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a31/1902/38/d41499e13da0.jpg[/IMG]

https://twitter.com/SATORIXXXIA/stat...020548097?s=20

[IMG]https://a.***********/a06/1902/44/73ce1c4b99a3.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing and Starfire

https://twitter.com/ValeriaFavoccia/...921264640?s=20

----------


## Rac7d*

where when is this


ric is gone

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

That looks like an old pic “Ric” is gonna be here until summer if not more

----------


## Drako

> That looks like an old pic “Ric” is gonna be here until summer if not more


Not old at all.
It's from DC 1000.

https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...211436033?s=21

----------


## dietrich

> where when is this
> 
> 
> ric is gone


It's Tec 1000

----------


## Pohzee

The cotumes are all over the place here. Barbara's in her new suit, but Jason is in his old one. So is Tim.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Nightwing is still “Ric” going up to # 59 which is released 4/17. Tec 1000 comes out 3/27 so this looks like nastalgic fan service that is not gonna be the new status quo.

----------


## dropkickjake

Don't even care if its just a one panel appearance at this point. Just give me SOMETHING with Nightwing and I'll be happy.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, it looks like a flashback or set in the past given some of the costumes. King is the reason for the Ric story in the first place and he is probably just going to ignore it for his Detective #1000 story because he knows it is shit and doesn't care. 

But this will probably be what happens when the Ric story ends. Dick will just go back to his old costume despite being shot in the head and stuff. No writer will want to touch or mention the Ric crap when it ends. So the ones expecting some big changes from it will be left disappointed I guess.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Yeah, it looks like a flashback or set in the past given some of the costumes. King is the reason for the Ric story in the first place and he is probably just going to ignore it for his Detective #1000 story because he knows it is shit and doesn't care. 
> 
> But this will probably be what happens when the Ric story ends. Dick will just go back to his old costume despite being shot in the head and stuff. No writer will want to touch or mention the Ric crap when it ends. So the ones expecting some big changes from it will be left disappointed I guess.


Do people want big changes from this? Lasting ones?

----------


## Badou

> Do people want big changes from this? Lasting ones?


There are still people defending the story going off the reviews. I think they are expecting some big changes from the outcome.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b18/1902/c1/57d83865cdc9.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Wally

http://fyeahdickgrayson.tumblr.com/p...rheroes-cafe-i

[IMG]https://c.***********/c05/1902/33/0dd225e75138.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Damian

http://laquilasse.tumblr.com/post/18...tor-prompt-was

----------


## oasis1313

Where are these people at?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b02/1902/41/b56fee2b2646.jpg[/IMG]

https://twitter.com/SATORIXXXIA/stat...122909696?s=20

----------


## Godlike13

> There are still people defending the story going off the reviews. I think they are expecting some big changes from the outcome.


Bleedingcool ran a pretty good article regarding comic book reviews. There not something one should put much stock in. I think experienced comics readers know what the deal is with the current run by now.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Bleedingcool ran a pretty good article regarding comic book reviews. There not something one should put much stock in. I think experienced comics readers know what the deal is with the current run by now.


It depends on the reviews. I find reviews by actual readers to be spot on more often than not.

----------


## Dzetoun

For what it's worth, there is a Dick Grayson sighting in this week's _Superman_. I don't have any ability to post the image, but in the scene where Jon is sleeping in his room on Jor-El's ship, a Titans team is shown on the holographic video screen. The team appears to consist of Dick Grayson Robin, Starfire, Raven, and Beast Boy. I guess you could argue that it is Tim in the image, but it looks too old to be Tim and the costume matches Dick's costume from the _Teen Titans_ animated show. Also, I don't recall a team with Tim that included all those characters. Of course it could also be Damian, which would fit with Jon's regrets about not being on the Titans, but in that case he _really_ looks too old.

----------


## Badou

> For what it's worth, there is a Dick Grayson sighting in this week's _Superman_. I don't have any ability to post the image, but in the scene where Jon is sleeping in his room on Jor-El's ship, a Titans team is shown on the holographic video screen. The team appears to consist of Dick Grayson Robin, Starfire, Raven, and Beast Boy. I guess you could argue that it is Tim in the image, but it looks too old to be Tim and the costume matches Dick's costume from the _Teen Titans_ animated show. Also, I don't recall a team with Tim that included all those characters. Of course it could also be Damian, which would fit with Jon's regrets about not being on the Titans, but in that case he _really_ looks too old.


That Robin costume in the image didn't fit any of Dick's Robin costumes. It was weird. I guess it was supposed to be the Teen Titans animated show (no Cyborg in the image though) but the costume probably matched Tim's the most but he didn't look like Tim like you said.

----------


## Godlike13

Wasn’t that just the Walmart Titans.

----------


## Badou

Guess it was. I haven't read any of it or really seen any of Wallmart's Titans, but I guess it makes sense if Bendis is writing both.

----------


## dietrich

I think it is the Walmart Teen Titans. The Robin is supposed to be Tim though he looks nothing like and the comic never refers to him as Tim. It's written by Dan Jurgens.

----------


## oasis1313

Poor Jurgens probably wasnt even told WHO is under the mask.  Just write something.  We cant have a company man outclass the Mighty Bendis.

----------


## Mataza

> Poor Jurgens probably wasn’t even told WHO is under the mask.  “Just write something.”  We can’t have a “company man” outclass the Mighty Bendis.


Was asked and said its Tim.

----------


## TheCape

> Poor Jurgens probably wasn’t even told WHO is under the mask.  “Just write something.”  We can’t have a “company man” outclass the Mighty Bendis.


Jurgens love to use 90s characthers wherever he can, he probably choose Tim because of that.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

1021-nightwing.jpg
1char.

----------


## oasis1313

Great.  All Nightwing needs is to be “written” by yet another High Priest in DC’s Church Of Drake.

----------


## Godlike13

He’s not writing Nightwing, he’s writing Ric. Don’t expect much.

----------


## Fergus

> Great.  All Nightwing needs is to be “written” by yet another High Priest in DC’s Church Of Drake.


I'm hopefully he will do an okay job on Nightwing. I liked how he handled him in BB and for a Someone who's a fan of nineties characters and tries to use them where he can I'm still waiting him for him give 90's Robin. decent page time in his BB. And even gave the honour of best batman bruce has ever seen to Damian. 

The better than Bruceman is a tag writers normally try to attach to Tim.

If it is Tim then might be mandate not choice.


As I commented elsewhere I hope King's Detective 1000 story is good.  The preview doesn't give me high hopes.

----------


## TheCape

> Great.  All Nightwing needs is to be “written” by yet another High Priest in DC’s Church Of Drake.


Ah Oasis, never change, your overreacting is amusing to me. By the way, Jurgens actually likes Dick he has done good job with him in the past, i'm almost sure that he said that he was his favorite once, althougth i doubt that he could make a good job with him in this status quo. Still apparently, the idea that he likes both is just too much for you.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm hopefully he will do an okay job on Nightwing. I liked how he handled him in BB and for a Someone who's a fan of nineties characters and tries to use them where he can I'm still waiting him for him give 90's Robin. decent page time in his BB. And even gave the honour of best batman bruce has ever seen to Damian. 
> 
> The better than Bruceman is a tag writers normally try to attach to Tim.
> 
> If it is Tim then might be mandate not choice.
> 
> 
> As I commented elsewhere I hope King's Detective 1000 story is good.  The preview doesn't give me high hopes.


Jurgens likes to use elements from that time period because it was his best time as a writer and artist, he is a fan of all DC's story in general, but he likes to use characthers or elements that he worked with previously, so you see a lot of that in his current work, his more recent Superman work is an example of that.

----------


## Fergus

> Jurgens likes to use elements from that time period because it was his best time as a writer and artist, he is a fan of all DC's story in general, but he likes to use characthers or elements that he worked with previously, so you see a lot of that in his current work, his more recent Superman work is an example of that.


That's fair. My point is that even if he is fond of characters from the 90's doesn't mean or stop him from also being fond of ones from a different era. As you said it's possible to like more than one thing. As proven by his BB. He used non-90's characters [including Dick] well. Coupled with the fact that he is a better writer than we currently have on Nightwing I'm hopeful he'll be an improvement.

----------


## Dzetoun

Well, in news about the _Nightwing_ writer, _Bleeding Cool_ is reporting that Zack Kaplan, writer of _Eclipse_ and _Port of Earth_, has been tapped to slide into the slot that was to be occupied by Eric Esquivel.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/02...-on-nightwing/

No word yet on whether that means he will be taking over _Nightwing_ instead of/together with Jurgens, although Kaplan's twitter seems to imply such:

https://twitter.com/zackkaps/status/1095852158803632129

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I really don't see that much love for drake these days for people to assume that DC has a "Church of Drake'.

----------


## dropkickjake

I'll check out some of this guys other work. Looks to me like he is just going to be strapped with this Ric shit though.

----------


## Godlike13

Poor guy.
...

----------


## Pohzee

> Well, in news about the _Nightwing_ writer, _Bleeding Cool_ is reporting that Zack Kaplan, writer of _Eclipse_ and _Port of Earth_, has been tapped to slide into the slot that was to be occupied by Eric Esquivel.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/02...-on-nightwing/
> 
> No word yet on whether that means he will be taking over _Nightwing_ instead of/together with Jurgens, although Kaplan's twitter seems to imply such:
> 
> https://twitter.com/zackkaps/status/1095852158803632129


Blue or black? Obviously black. With camo pants

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d37/1902/2e/54c61addf007.jpg[/IMG]

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...-come-on-robin

[IMG]https://d.***********/d28/1902/db/a0c9a9557b43.jpg[/IMG]

https://nobodyanybody0.tumblr.com/post/182734582295

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c27/1902/46/d22ea6a0244f.png[/IMG]

Dick and Dami

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...e-you-sleeping

[IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1902/a8/475f59a522f2.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Tim

https://brucewaynehomeforangrychildr...our-art-its-so

----------


## dropkickjake

https://twitter.com/zackkaps/status/1096124770737766401

Posted a pic o' ric. Lest ye' be excited at all.

----------


## nightbird

> https://twitter.com/zackkaps/status/1096124770737766401
> 
> Posted a pic o' ric. Lest ye' be excited at all.


Dialogue...monologue...awful writing. Even Travis Moore’s art is not saving this book in my eyes. They’re wasting him on Ric Grayson stories instead of giving us chance simply enjoy him drawing proper Dick Grayson regularly.

----------


## Godlike13

Meh, he only does like 5 pages here and there anyway.

 Honestly the art on this run has been as bad as the writing. Going between Moore's flybys to  Mooneyham and the various filler artist. Nothing and no one is in sync, the designs are terrible, and Moore and Mooneyham have as conflicting of styles as you can get.

----------


## oasis1313

Maybe Dickless Comics should just GIVE the copyright to Marvel.  Or maybe pay ‘em to take it .  Not sure how they could do any worse.

----------


## Pohzee

> Maybe Dickless Comics should just GIVE the copyright to Marvel.  Or maybe pay ‘em to take it .  Not sure how they could do any worse.


I honestly have no idea how you could possibly think that this is a good idea. Stripping Dick of Batman strips him of his growth and character.

----------


## nightbird

> Maybe Dickless Comics should just GIVE the copyright to Marvel.  Or maybe pay ‘em to take it .  Not sure how they could do any worse.


Marvel books don’t smell roses either nowadays 

P.S. I’m actually offended how frequently and easily  Dick says “I love you” to all his girlfriends recently xD

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c16/1902/1c/1e3385df99c7.jpg[/IMG]

4 Robins

http://romyjones.tumblr.com/post/182812076632

[IMG]https://b.***********/b18/1902/c0/c0102fe1a1b4.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Barbara

http://mayhw.tumblr.com/post/1828160...s-for-all-your

----------


## yohyoi

I heard Nightwing got his 10th writer these past two years. Is he good?

----------


## oasis1313

> Marvel books don’t smell roses either nowadays 
> 
> P.S. I’m actually offended how frequently and easily  Dick says “I love you” to all his girlfriends recently xD


That one is tough.  Dick loves others so easily, just having a loving heart.  I think he’s a bit naive sometimes and thinks every girl might be that One True Love.  He thought he was in love with Shawn, seems once he’s in a relationship he goes head over heels.  And the girls keep breaking his heart.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric’s a delusion child with his first boner. He doesn’t know what happiness or love really even is. He’s only existed for a couple of months. That girl is hooking up with a delusional brain trauma victim. I have no sympathy for her.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c27/1902/46/d22ea6a0244f.png[/IMG]
> 
> Dick and Dami
> 
> http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...e-you-sleeping
> 
> [IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1902/a8/475f59a522f2.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Dick and Tim
> ...


It's annoying that they've not even shown his brothers react this or try to talk to him. Like he's some guy who has no family. Like Dick doesn't have people who care. That's pathetic.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

All the relationships in the DC Universe are superficial and based on nostalgia, the Justice League cannot exists as Gods in a universe with a competent JSA & Titans because legacy lost out to the pantheon in the 90’s

----------


## nightbird

> It's annoying that they've not even shown his brothers react this or try to talk to him. Like he's some guy who has no family. Like Dick doesn't have people who care. That's pathetic.


It’s too emotionally complex writing for Batoffice editor and writers to even try to accomplish.
Sad to see Dick being ignored like that and Batfamily having no emotional connection anymore. If they ever had some in the first place.

----------


## Godlike13

To be honest I don’t know if I could even stomach Ric crying about how nobody likes him for him again. He’s such a delusional tool, and the creators on him are as delusional as he is. Thinking that it’ll make him sympathetic or something, but in actuality it just makes him come off like an unlikable baby.

----------


## wvchemteach

> I heard Nightwing got his 10th writer these past two years. Is he good?


Nightwing has had some good writers and passable writers the past couple of years. Unfortunately on the current run the writer isn't that good.

----------


## wvchemteach

It has just hit me that with Nightwing being knocked down to a once a month shipping that it might mean it is twice as long we have to put up with 'Ric'. *sigh*

----------


## Godlike13

I think Ric is here for a set amount of months, not necessarily issues. There is very clearly no actual real story here with a planned out beginning and end. They very clearly are just making whatever they can up with whomever they can find. That’s part of why this direction has been so creatively bankrupt. And at this point this direction is probably just filler till they get to their next event or whatever. I really do feel bad for the new guy. This direction, and series even, at this point is dead in the water.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think Ric is here for a set amount of months, not necessarily issues. There is very clearly no actual real story here with a planned out beginning and end. They very clearly are just making whatever they can up with whomever they can find. That’s part of why this direction has been so creatively bankrupt. And at this point this direction is just filler till they get to their next event or whatever. I really do feel bad for the new guy. This direction, and series even, at this point is dead in the water.


Yeah, it's probably waiting for King's _City of Bane_ or maybe for whatever happens with _Titans_. I wonder if they are not going to bring _Titans_ back as an _Outsiders_ book. There was a rumor to that effect a while back, along with the announcement that the current _Titans_ was being cancelled because "new creative directions had arisen." In any case, that would explain why _Batman and the Outsiders_ was precipitously yanked with no explanation. So that and the new _Nightwing_ direction could spin out of _City of Bane_, especially if its still a "Batman and the Outsiders" thing.

----------


## Arsenal

> Yeah, it's probably waiting for King's _City of Bane_ or maybe for whatever happens with _Titans_. I wonder if they are not going to bring _Titans_ back as an _Outsiders_ book. There was a rumor to that effect a while back, along with the announcement that the current _Titans_ was being cancelled because "new creative directions had arisen." In any case, that would explain why _Batman and the Outsiders_ was precipitously yanked with no explanation. So that and the new _Nightwing_ direction could spin out of _City of Bane_, especially if its still a "Batman and the Outsiders" thing.


We’ll know more next week but right now it looks like the previously announced team hasn’t changed.

Part of me wonders if King’s knightmare arc is just his way of stalling so all the batbooks get where he needs them to be for the big bat summer event thing (which I guess is what the city of Bane is supposed to be).

----------


## Dzetoun

> We’ll know more next week but right now it looks like the previously announced team hasn’t changed.
> 
> Part of me wonders if King’s knightmare arc is just his way of stalling so all the batbooks get where he needs them to be for the big bat summer event thing (which I guess is what the city of Bane is supposed to be).


I suspect there is something to that. Come down to it, pretty much everybody seems to be stalling these days, except maybe for Bendis in the Wonder Comics imprint, and I guess _Heroes in Crisis_.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> I suspect there is something to that. Come down to it, pretty much everybody seems to be stalling these days, except maybe for Bendis in the Wonder Comics imprint, and I guess _Heroes in Crisis_.


Bendis' WC stuff doesn't really touch big DCU things. I think YJ especially will be more self contained.

Dick had a good run from 2011-mid late 2017. I def don't like Ric, but Dick's situation in the DCU could've been much worse.

I think they have a good reason for no one except Babs and Alfred reaching out. Jason has been disowned, doing his own thing. Damian has gone rogue and clearly doesn't care for any family member except for Alfred atm, Tim has the Bendis lock on him.

----------


## 9th.

I love this art

----------


## Godlike13

> We’ll know more next week but right now it looks like the previously announced team hasn’t changed.
> 
> Part of me wonders if King’s knightmare arc is just his way of stalling so all the batbooks get where he needs them to be for the big bat summer event thing (which I guess is what the city of Bane is supposed to be).


I’m not sure Batman cares if the other Bat books are where it’s needs them to be. Nightwing wouldn’t be in the situation it finds itself in if the current Bat office operated like that.

----------


## dietrich

> To be honest I dont know if I could even stomach Ric crying about how nobody likes him for him again. Hes such a delusional tool, and the creators on him are as delusional as he is. Thinking that itll make him sympathetic or something, but in actuality it just makes him come off like an unlikable baby.


It doesn't making him sympathetic because it's purposefully dishonest writing because the reader knows the writers have deliberately isolated Dick from people who love and worry about him.

I just want to see his family and friends reaching out to him.

----------


## dietrich

> Bendis' WC stuff doesn't really touch big DCU things. I think YJ especially will be more self contained.
> 
> Dick had a good run from 2011-mid late 2017. I def don't like Ric, but Dick's situation in the DCU could've been much worse.
> 
> I think they have a good reason for no one except Babs and Alfred reaching out. Jason has been disowned, doing his own thing. Damian has gone rogue and clearly doesn't care for any family member except for Alfred atm, Tim has the Bendis lock on him.


Damian hasn't gone rouge [that implies playing by his own rules not Batman's ]. He fell out with his father and even if he had he would still drop everything to rush to Dick. Heck he rushed to save Alfred's life despite Bruce doing the asking. If he's there for Alfred and Bruce even in times of estrangement he will be there for Dick Grayson double. It's just shitting writing that he hasn't been in Nightwing. 
Tim I don't expect since he doesn't have a relationship with Dick. 
Jason i would expect to see especially with the direction Lobdell was going early in Rebirth.

----------


## dietrich

> It’s too emotionally complex writing for Batoffice editor and writers to even try to accomplish.
> Sad to see Dick being ignored like that and Batfamily having no emotional connection anymore. If they ever had some in the first place.


It's so frustrating because a better writer could have milked this memory loss angle to pump out lots of heartwarming or nostalgia heavy stories.

It could have even been used to repair some emotional connections. Sadly these days Bruce, Dick and Damian are the only ones who have any emotional connection. Jason and Bruce do too though that seems to be just under Lobdell.
It looked like Lobdell was set on developing a connection/relationship with Dick in early in Rebirth but not much has being done with that.

If they can't write anything creative I'd settle for random Bat shaped silhouettes lurking, against the night sky, on rooftops checking in on Dick.

----------


## Arsenal

> It's so frustrating because a better writer could have milked this memory loss angle to pump out lots of heartwarming or nostalgia heavy stories.
> 
> It could have even been used to repair some emotional connections. Sadly these days Bruce, Dick and Damian are the only ones who have any emotional connection. Jason and Bruce do too though that seems to be just under Lobdell.
> It looked like Lobdell was set on developing a connection/relationship with Dick in early in Rebirth but not much has being done with that.
> 
> If they can't write anything creative I'd settle for random Bat shaped silhouettes lurking, against the night sky, on rooftops checking in on Dick.


At this point I’d even settle for some throwaway lines in other bat books stating how they are keeping an eye on him.

----------


## Badou

So they found someone to write Lobdell's scripts. Feel bad for him as he is stuck with the Ric garbage as his gateway into DC. What a rotten egg to be given. 

I do wonder that now Lobdell is off the book will Zack Kaplan continue to write the scripts for Jurgens run as well, or if Jurgens is just a fill in writer they asked on short notice to write a couple issues and then Zack Kaplan will take over full writing duties after Jurgens run. That is basically the next question that will get answered in the following month or two.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I love this art


If only the book were as good as this cover.  Hell, I would settle for a quarter as good.

----------


## Drako

By Jason Fabok




> #Detective1000 hits stands on (3/27) and I was asked by @DCComics to illustrate an image showcasing the Batman Universe in 2019. Check it out! ...Oh, and if you're attending @C2E2 this year, it'll also be on the official program cover! Colors by @bdanderson13 #batman #c2e2




https://twitter.com/JasonFabok/statu...18962957950977

----------


## JasonTodd428

> By Jason Fabok
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JasonFabok/statu...18962957950977


Love this. I especially love that Batmobile there.

----------


## Acadiane

I noticed an interesting Ric reference in this Wednesday's issue #3 of Marvel's "Winter Soldier" mini.  Yes, Marvel.  Because the WS mini is being written by Kyle Higgins.   :Smile: 

Here's how the scene goes:  Winter Soldier is talking to a troubled, violent teenage boy named RJ, trying to lead him onto a better path, and suggests maybe the kid could use a name change.  Here's Higgins' dialogue:

WS:  If you don't want to be RJ anymore, you don't have to be.
RJ:  What else would I be?
WS:  Robert... Ryan... What about Rick?  We could drop the "K" and make it look hip.
RJ:  ...  How has no one killed you yet?
WS:  It's certainly not for lack of trying.

I gotta say, this made me laugh.  Higgins must be hating this Ric "direction" as much as I am.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing Fans 2 years ago: “nEW 52 wAS tHe WoRsT tHiNG tHaT hAPpENeD tO nIgHtWiNG”

----------


## wvchemteach

> Nightwing Fans 2 years ago: “nEW 52 wAS tHe WoRsT tHiNG tHaT hAPpENeD tO nIgHtWiNG”


Yeah... we're eating our words now.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Nightwing Fans 2 years ago: “nEW 52 wAS tHe WoRsT tHiNG tHaT hAPpENeD tO nIgHtWiNG”


LOL that was me who posted that on reddit haha. Everyone here and on reddit complained about New 52 Nightwing. I always thought of it as a great run, clean slate to show who the character is, not just NW but Dick Grayson in general. I think most people hated N52 NW just because he was red, not even about the stories.

I don't think we've ever seen the character in a bad spot like this in modern times.

----------


## Badou

New 52 was tough because the character regressed so much. He went from being Batman and leading the JL while doing all these cool things throughout the DCU to being isolated in his own book and could only interact with Bruce or Barbara. That was it. He had zero influence or impact on anything and he is still kind of suffering from the effects of that today. He had no friends (most didn't exist anymore), his history was in shambles and a lot of it was erased, and he wasn't given anything to make up for all these losses. So he was operating from a massive negative without anything to makeup for it. Then his stories were so overly dark and depressing. It was a constant stream of how miserable they could make him and how much they could tear him down over and over. Then later we learned that the upper management wanted the New 52 books (at least in the Batman line) to be overly dark and gritty. 

All that being said the Ric Grayson situation now is the worst period in the character's history, in my opinion. From all the management problems, the pure lack of care involved from everyone, and the constant creator turnover is just insanely bad. You throw in just how awful Abnett's Titans run was and his dreadful use of the character (I'd argue that Abnett had one of the worst voices for Dick ever) and this is by far the worst time period in the character's history. I'm not sure anything really comes close.

----------


## byrd156

> Nightwing Fans 2 years ago: “nEW 52 wAS tHe WoRsT tHiNG tHaT hAPpENeD tO nIgHtWiNG”


Well it did lead to this...  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> Nightwing Fans 2 years ago: “nEW 52 wAS tHe WoRsT tHiNG tHaT hAPpENeD tO nIgHtWiNG”


Not the worst anymore, but, IMO, still one of the worst, due to him being isolated from bigger DCU and them altering his history and time as Robin. He is still suffering from consequences of all wrong creative decisions that DC made at that time.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b20/1902/d8/2575caaaf978.png[/IMG]

Dick, Dami and Jason 
Reverse age

http://hanafuku.tumblr.com/post/1828...15/reverse-age

----------


## dietrich

> Nightwing Fans 2 years ago: “nEW 52 wAS tHe WoRsT tHiNG tHaT hAPpENeD tO nIgHtWiNG”


Yeah Nightwing fans always ruin it for all the Dick Grayson fans. We could have had Grayson for so much longer but lets return him to "just another spandex clad super hero" because finger stripes.

I would muh ha ha but it's not funny.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b20/1902/d8/2575caaaf978.png[/IMG]
> 
> Dick, Dami and Jason 
> Reverse age
> 
> http://hanafuku.tumblr.com/post/1828...15/reverse-age


Aww I love this so much. Plus RobinDick with a hood.... yess

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah Nightwing fans always ruin it for all the Dick Grayson fans. We could have had Grayson for so much longer but lets return him to "just another spandex clad super hero" because finger stripes.
> 
> I would muh ha ha but it's not funny.


Nightwing fans are Dick Grayson fans, I didn't know there was some distinction.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Grayson was only ever going to be a temporary thing. The series is gone and shouldn't come back, the aspects and storylines should still be around. I have been saying this for years. It was Seeley that made that run great, just like he did when Dick was back in the costume. His run in Nightwing I think felt just as good as Grayson. Even more-so because it amplified Grayson's importance to Dick's new overall story. It's been the only clear chapter of his new continuity. Plus with the New 52 Nightwing run being the only recent thing to compare to, no wonder it was so beloved. 

Execution of ideas is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. You can have a great idea (Grayson) or terrible idea (New 52 Nightwing) but if done competently then you can have something decent on your hands. Grayson was great because it had a great writer and artist, the idea of being a spy rather than Nightwing doesn't make it better or the suit with or without finger stripes or Bludhaven or whatever aspect of his mythos you have an issue with isn't the problem. It's the execution of those aspects.

----------


## Drako

Everybody knew that Grayson was going to be temporary, just like Dickbats was back then and Ric is now. And people forget that the main writers of the book left to do Rebirth stuff?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Everybody knew that Grayson was going to be temporary, just like Dickbats was back then and Ric is now. And people forget that the main writers of the book left to do Rebirth stuff?


Everyone knows it was temporary, but it wasn't meant to be as short as it was. 

And one of the writers staying on to do Rebirth is small comfort when he was forced to use Bludhaven, which he was upfront about not liking, and it negatively impacted some of his stories.

----------


## Drako

> Everyone knows it was temporary, but it wasn't meant to be as short as it was. 
> 
> And one of the writers staying on to do Rebirth is small comfort when he was forced to use Bludhaven, which he was upfront about not liking, and it negatively impacted some of his stories.


I don't think it was that short. Dick was Batman for 2 years and he was Grayson for the same amount of time. 

Imagine him being Ric for two whole years.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I don't think it was that short. Dick was Batman for 2 years and he was Grayson for the same amount of time. 
> 
> Imagine him being Ric for two whole years.


But it _was_ cut short. Rebirth moved Seeley and King off the book before they were ready. They had like 50 issues or something planned. 

Whether or not you think it was long enough from our perspective is another matter, but the creators weren't done and what has come afterward hasn't been worth losing it even before we got to Ric.

----------


## Drako

> But it _was_ cut short. Rebirth moved Seeley and King off the book before they were ready. They had like 50 issues or something planned. 
> 
> Whether or not you think it was long enough from our perspective is another matter, but the creators weren't done and what has come afterward hasn't been worth losing it even before we got to Ric.


Yeah and Dick supposed to going back to being Nightwing after Bruce came back in "Return of Bruce Wayne," but he was well liked as Batman so DC decided to let him be for one more year. 

Sometimes the plan changes for better or worse. 

I loved Grayson too and i'll never argue against it's greatness, but i just don't like this ideia that people throw around here that if you like him as Nightwing you're somehow a lesser fan.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah and Dick supposed to going back to being Nightwing after Bruce came back in "Return of Bruce Wayne," but he was well liked as Batman so DC decided to let him be for one more year. 
> 
> Sometimes the plan changes for better or worse. 
> 
> I loved Grayson too and i'll never argue against it's greatness, but i just don't like this ideia that people throw around here that if you like him as Nightwing you're somehow a lesser fan.


I wouldn't say anyone's a lesser fan for liking him as Nightwing in general, but the way that they returned him to Nightwing hasn't been good for the character. It was a decision that was nostalgia driven (for the Dixon days) and once Seeley left, they had no direction, and it's gradually lead to this.

Marrying the Nightwing identity to Agent 37 style stories could have been great. "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" are cited as Seeley's best arcs for a reason, but DC editorial prevented that from being the norm because who knows why. Nightwing doesn't have to be a slave to mediocre stories, but he ends up being one all the same. I think the issue people have is that the last time he had a direction he wasn't Nightwing, and we lost it in favor of directionless Nightwing.

----------


## Drako

> I wouldn't say anyone's a lesser fan for liking him as Nightwing in general, but the way that they returned him to Nightwing hasn't been good for the character. It was a decision that was nostalgia driven (for the Dixon days) and once Seeley left, they had no direction, and it's gradually lead to this.
> 
> Marrying the Nightwing identity to Agent 37 style stories could have been great. "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" are cited as Seeley's best arcs for a reason, but DC editorial prevented that from being the norm because who knows why. Nightwing doesn't have to be a slave to mediocre stories, but he ends up being one all the same. I think the issue people have is that the last time he had a direction he wasn't Nightwing, and we lost it in favor of directionless Nightwing.


I agree. Let's hope DC can see this as well.
Young Justice Nightwing it's the perfect example of how they can do the character and appeal to all of his types of fans.

----------


## Pohzee

I am very curious about the Robin origin that Tynion is writing for Detective Comics #1000. 

Will he have him take it in his alien suit?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a23/1902/8b/012b394054bf.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Babs 

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...-your-day-dick

[IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1902/48/e0e25a763acc.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Babs

http://preshfinn.tumblr.com/post/182...294/commission

----------


## Godlike13

> New 52 was tough because the character regressed so much. He went from being Batman and leading the JL while doing all these cool things throughout the DCU to being isolated in his own book and could only interact with Bruce or Barbara. That was it. He had zero influence or impact on anything and he is still kind of suffering from the effects of that today. He had no friends (most didn't exist anymore), his history was in shambles and a lot of it was erased, and he wasn't given anything to make up for all these losses. So he was operating from a massive negative without anything to makeup for it. Then his stories were so overly dark and depressing. It was a constant stream of how miserable they could make him and how much they could tear him down over and over. Then later we learned that the upper management wanted the New 52 books (at least in the Batman line) to be overly dark and gritty. 
> 
> All that being said the Ric Grayson situation now is the worst period in the character's history, in my opinion. From all the management problems, the pure lack of care involved from everyone, and the constant creator turnover is just insanely bad. You throw in just how awful Abnett's Titans run was and his dreadful use of the character (I'd argue that Abnett had one of the worst voices for Dick ever) and this is by far the worst time period in the character's history. I'm not sure anything really comes close.


Agreed.
...

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d31/1902/05/c1b4d7a3ab48.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing 

[IMG]https://c.***********/c13/1902/0b/63da81c6cbb6.jpg[/IMG]

Dick, Kory and Mari

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt4qmHvh0Am/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c16/1902/38/5b508c56f631.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlRzpnAnD-R/

[IMG]https://b.***********/b15/1902/de/c96313c661e1.jpg[/IMG]

Dick, Dami and Bruce

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlDwgtwHPc4/

----------


## bearman

I don’t think Grayson was designed to be temporary.ibelieve DC hoped it would catch on.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d08/1902/ea/ae424f681ac4.jpg[/IMG]

Valentine’s Day Nightwing by Kris Anka

https://twitter.com/kristaferanka/st...676828160?s=20

Lol :Cool:

----------


## dietrich

> Nightwing fans are Dick Grayson fans, I didn't know there was some distinction. 
> 
> Grayson was only ever going to be a temporary thing. The series is gone and shouldn't come back, the aspects and storylines should still be around. I have been saying this for years. It was Seeley that made that run great, just like he did when Dick was back in the costume. His run in Nightwing I think felt just as good as Grayson. Even more-so because it amplified Grayson's importance to Dick's new overall story. It's been the only clear chapter of his new continuity. Plus with the New 52 Nightwing run being the only recent thing to compare to, no wonder it was so beloved. 
> 
> Execution of ideas is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. You can have a great idea (Grayson) or terrible idea (New 52 Nightwing) but if done competently then you can have something decent on your hands. Grayson was great because it had a great writer and artist, the idea of being a spy rather than Nightwing doesn't make it better or the suit with or without finger stripes or Bludhaven or whatever aspect of his mythos you have an issue with isn't the problem. It's the execution of those aspects.


I didn't know there was a distinction either until Grayson happened. But apparently some are only down for Dick Grayson when he's dressed a certain way.

I don't know how long what was supposed to last but I'm pretty sure the pettiness and constant complaints did affect Grayson. I know some fan Boycotted the title before it came out because of the change of suit. I saw the people going on about the book being sexist online. All that affects a book.

There are some fans who thing's like the suit, the love interest will be a deal breaker. Many comments and threads on this very site support it. Heck even when Nightwing came back some were still complaining when Seeley said about some of the story playing out outside Bludhaven. 

We have discussions about Dick's potential and how DC doesn't want to push Dick but the reality is that a lot of it is down to fans who are unwilling to let the character evolve.

Nightwing as a spy already has the added benefit of being a role different from Batman. I don't know whether he couldn't be a Spy forever but he could have been one longer and Seeley could have been allowed to have a mix of both. Bringing elements of Grayson into Nightwing.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d08/1902/ea/ae424f681ac4.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Valentine’s Day Nightwing by Kris Anka
> 
> https://twitter.com/kristaferanka/st...676828160?s=20
> 
> Lol


Showoff.! 

I like the Nightwing PJ's.

Keep the great art posts @nightbird. Pl,ease keep em coming.

----------


## Aahz

> I dont think Grayson was designed to be temporary.ibelieve DC hoped it would catch on.


I doubt that, the whole set up of Dick going under cover in Spyral to take it down, is just something that makes only sense for a limited amount of time.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I agree that it comes down to fans not letting the character evolve. The new52 situation could have been fresher if fans didn’t pretend the new inexperienced Dick was the old Dick. Editorial says he’s a new younger character with no history but writers pretend he is, the way he cares for his brothers and Bruce, and fans said he should have accomplished this and have friends  that. It caused confusion and lies about who he is. Pretty much all other characters of his generation have been torn down too but theirs are never lied about by writers and fans to this extent.  Practically , if you stripped Dicks history, other Robin should never exist.  Jason was a replacement for Dick, Tim was led into this life because of Dick and Damian was Dicks Robin. With new 52 we should have forget all that and believe he’s the lapdog of the fam. He’s treated worse that wee Robin back in the day. You can say babs still was shot and Garth’s lover still died and they just rescovered faster, but 4 robins don’t happen in 5 years and Dick didn’t build his history in 1 year.  As of Prime Earth,Scott Snyder’s run which was written in light of preboot, is a lie. Multiversal Constant is a lie. Everyone loves Dick is a lie. “I was always there while you are not” is a lie. Fun on train with Tim is a lie. Even Robin Damian with Brucebats negates his history with Dickbats.

----------


## oasis1313

I haven’t seen any evidence lately that Everyone Loves Dick.  Aside from Alfred and Barbara, the Bat-Family seems to have forgotten all about him.

----------


## Ascended

> I agree that it comes down to fans not letting the character evolve.


This is definitely a problem with mainstream Big 2 comics. Fans typically like the characters they like the way they are, and worry that changes to the status quo will disrupt whatever traits or elements made them fans in the first place. 

But you still see it. Dick becomes Nightwing. Clark and Lois get married....then have a kid twenty years later. It can be done, but you gotta take em in baby steps. Obvious, natural progression, nothing *too* big, nothing that takes away from the core themes and appeal. No subtraction, just smart, common sense additions. And it builds slowly, over decades.




> The new52 situation could have been fresher if fans didnÂt pretend the new inexperienced Dick was the old Dick.


This is the root flaw with reboots. The assumption that altering fictional continuity also alters the fans' expectations and perceptions.

Fans aren't *going* to forget. And after investing time, money, and passion into the hobby they shouldn't be asked to. DC can say whatever it likes about what "counts" or not, but I have twenty years of Nightwing comics in my memory (just as all of us have past experiences that brought us to the fandom). Those memories have formed opinions, and my enjoyment of today's comics are influenced by those opinions. When a character I'm familiar with acts out of accordance with my expectations, I'm probably going to consider the product poorly. I can make allowances, and I think all of us do; we tell ourselves to be open minded because its a new continuity. We try. And we might even like what we see. But forcing us to actively fight against our bias and expectations is going to detract and distract from the product; we're (usually) convincing ourselves these OOC moments are okay while our expectations tell us otherwise. It's not a good long-term business model to employ. And with a "time reset" we make excuses but it's still stuff we've already read before (thematically at least) and it feels like a reduction, rarely a fresh start. Previous experience hones expectation. Acting counter to those biases is not in DC's best interest, unless they surpass those expectations, and that's really damn hard to do most of the time. That's how I see it, anyway.




> Editorial says heÂs a new younger character with no history but writers pretend he is


Who's pretending? The writers (and fans) who have had their views and understanding of these characters built over years of experience, or the people telling everyone to pretend none of the stuff they still remember happened? DC owns the rights to the characters but they don't own the rights to how they are perceived, and screwing with brand expectations in the hopes of finding new business is damn risky. Just look at New Coke. 

And really, rebooting in an industry where the backbone of the consumers love to argue and talk about continuity? C'mon.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Drako



----------


## Godlike13

> This is definitely a problem with mainstream Big 2 comics. Fans typically like the characters they like the way they are, and worry that changes to the status quo will disrupt whatever traits or elements made them fans in the first place.


And you can blame shit like Ric for that. Which is a shame.

----------


## oasis1313

I wouldn’t say that the fans share any blame for “Ric.”  Grayson was well-received, certainly better than Ric is going over for the most part.

----------


## Godlike13

No, what im saying is that crap like Ric is why there are fans hesitant to change with the status quo. Which is unfortunate.

----------


## oasis1313

> No, what im saying is the crap like Ric is why there are fans hesitant to change with the status quo .


I think fans like pretty much anything they perceive as good FOR Dick.

----------


## Pohzee

> I think fans like pretty much anything they perceive as good FOR Dick.


Sometimes, their perception is WRONG.

----------


## oasis1313

> Sometimes, their perception is WRONG.


Their perceptions are better than Dan Didio's and Tom King's.

----------


## Pohzee

> Their perceptions are better than Dan Didio's and Tom King's.


I strongly disagree with you on both of these.


See: Grayson

----------


## nightbird

> Showoff.! 
> 
> I like the Nightwing PJ's.
> 
> Keep the great art posts @nightbird. Pl,ease keep em coming.


I will  :Cool:  
So, I hope everyone is okay seeing fanarts all the time :Wink: )

----------


## nightbird

> 


I like how they made Nightwing stand on an elephant. Also, for once I think that his figure turn out to be the best out of bunch.

----------


## WonderNight

> I will  
> So, I hope everyone is okay seeing fanarts all the time)


If this was was grayson Twitter would be crying about objectification  :Stick Out Tongue:  funny when he nightwing is no long a problem.

----------


## Godlike13

> I like how they made Nightwing stand on an elephant. Also, for once I think that his figure turn out to be the best out of bunch.


The circus elephant is a really nice touch. Whats more Damian's standing on Goliath, and Babs Gargoyle is reading a book. Those are pretty cool touches. Not sure what RH's is reference too.

----------


## dietrich

> I will  
> So, I hope everyone is okay seeing fanarts all the time)


I love fan art but because it's not so easy to keep updated on what's out there one ends ups missing a lot of beautiful work. So I also appreciate when they are posted here so we can all appreciate then.

Plus those fans who took the time to show love to Dick Grayson i'm okay seeing their work.

----------


## dietrich

> The circus elephant is a really nice touch. Whats more Damian's standing on Goliath, and Babs Gargoyle is reading a book. Those are pretty cool touches. Not sure what RH's is reference too.


Nice catch. I din't even notice.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

This statue is gorgeous. It's a bit weird that Batman is chilling with Red Hood when he seems to be carrying an assault rifle but that's my only gripe.

----------


## dietrich

> This statue is gorgeous. It's a bit weird that Batman is chilling with Red Hood when he seems to be carrying an assault rifle but that's my only gripe.


Batman. Always a man of principles. I suppose Batman is okay with assault rifles so long someone else is holding it.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c08/1902/f4/7047ed78d419.jpg[/IMG]

Batman and Nightwing 

https://aklasuuu.tumblr.com/post/182...theme-partners

----------


## oasis1313

> I like how they made Nightwing stand on an elephant. Also, for once I think that his figure turn out to be the best out of bunch.


I wonder if they will do more figures, like villains, to add to this to make full-fledged diorama out of it.  It's perfectly balanced as it is.

Also, I love it when the beautiful fan-art is posted in the forum.  A lot of it is better than the pro work.  Please post more !!!!!

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Yeah and Dick supposed to going back to being Nightwing after Bruce came back in "Return of Bruce Wayne," but he was well liked as Batman so DC decided to let him be for one more year. 
> 
> Sometimes the plan changes for better or worse. 
> 
> I loved Grayson too and i'll never argue against it's greatness, but i just don't like this ideia that people throw around here that if you like him as Nightwing you're somehow a lesser fan.


Actually the plan was for Dick to be the sole Batman for much, much longer. DC rushed Morrison to bring Bruce back as soon as possible. We don't know exactly how long Dick was planned to be Batman before Bruce was supposed to return, but what we do know is the New 52 reboot did cut off a lot of DickBats stories. Robinson had three different JLA arcs planned with Dick at the forefront (I mean, he was the leader of the team lol). Gates of Gotham was Higgins and Snyder setting up their initial Court of Owls story, Snyder's Black Mirror even set up the themes of that story. Instead, Dick became a supporting character to his own story because Snyder rewrote it to fit Bruce and the rebooted Batfamily.

No comment on the lesser fan thing, but I wanted to clear this up. And hey, you may have a point still. I mean, Dick was planned to die in Infinite Crisis, and those plans changed (maybe not for the better right away, but we eventually got Tomasi's Nightwing run and then DickBats stuff).

----------


## nightbird

> I love fan art but because it's not so easy to keep updated on what's out there one ends ups missing a lot of beautiful work. So I also appreciate when they are posted here so we can all appreciate then.
> 
> Plus those fans who took the time to show love to Dick Grayson i'm okay seeing their work.


I also appreciate when fans express their love though art. Also sometimes they go overboard with poses loool

----------


## nightbird

> I wonder if they will do more figures, like villains, to add to this to make full-fledged diorama out of it.  It's perfectly balanced as it is.
> 
> Also, I love it when the beautiful fan-art is posted in the forum.  A lot of it is better than the pro work.  Please post more !!!!!


I from time to time see some works of this (that?) artist on tumblr, and she/he is more into slash and shipping characters with each other, but her/his work serously sometimes look like pages/panels from comics.

[IMG]https://c.***********/c33/1902/53/9db7084fb5ac.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://c.***********/c28/1902/bf/afcbe880f863.jpg[/IMG]

http://francisxie.tumblr.com/post/18...aw-for-a-while

http://francisxie.tumblr.com/post/17...brooding-phase

----------


## dietrich

Young Justice Dick as Robin



https://twitter.com/SATORIXXXIA

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d43/1902/ec/19989e8f3b90.jpg[/IMG]

loool

http://laquilasse.tumblr.com/post/18...am-with-jersey

----------


## Jackalope89

> Young Justice Dick as Robin
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/SATORIXXXIA


While I like a lot of these, for some reason, a lot of these pictures I have to right click to view the image. Otherwise, its just a little pagebreak box.

----------


## oasis1313

> If this was was grayson Twitter would be crying about objectification  funny when he nightwing is no long a problem.


What's the problem with a male comics character being sexy?  Almost all female characters (except deliberate outliers like Susie or Grace/Orca) have always been "objectified."  Seeley and King poked fun at the idea far more than they ever pandered to it.

----------


## WonderNight

> What's the problem with a male comics character being sexy?  Almost all female characters (except deliberate outliers like Susie or Grace/Orca) have always been "objectified."  Seeley and King poked fun at the idea far more than they ever pandered to it.


I don't know, there're the ones complaining not me. All I'm saying is that I find it funny that a lot of sexy nightwing fanart comes from the same people who complained about it in grayson.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c43/1902/26/1a7d7ed4005e.jpg[/IMG]

http://francisxie.tumblr.com/post/17...omeone-told-me

[IMG]https://c.***********/c27/1902/b1/055a4e0f17e0.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing and Red Hood

https://jion-2d.tumblr.com/post/182610827468/hi

----------


## dietrich

> While I like a lot of these, for some reason, a lot of these pictures I have to right click to view the image. Otherwise, its just a little pagebreak box.


You mean they don't show up properly/

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Ric will be here in May, The new Batman story is a 5 parter from 70 to 75. Ric Comics are back to monthly so that’s guaranteed that Ric will be here July & will be used/not used for the Batman event which considering all the previous interactions is not gonna turn out well for Nightwing because King hasn’t written anything positive happening to The Bat Family. Doomsday Clock in finished in July likely won’t be that important for Dick Grayson so I don’t see Ric going away until September/October or DC May keep him like that forever

----------


## Godlike13

Ric's here till the current series ends i'd bet.

Also seems Ric is becoming a guest in this own book, lol.

----------


## Pohzee

I’ve been largely indifferent to Ric because I wasn’t reading the mediocre Nightwing stories before it, so all it was doing was continue to save me money, but this months solicits actually made me mad. It’s just so stupid and so bad.

And how cool to see Spyral get wiped out in Superman and Tiger to show up in Batman.

----------


## Jackalope89

After all this "Ric" crap, Dick needs a hug.

----------


## Godlike13

> I’ve been largely indifferent to Ric because I wasn’t reading the mediocre Nightwing stories before it, so all it was doing was continue to save me money, but this months solicits actually made me mad. It’s just so stupid and so bad.
> 
> And how cool to see Spyral get wiped out in Superman and Tiger to show up in Batman.


Though Matt Fraction at DC. What are the odds we can get him on the next Nightwing relaunch. Though he’s probably gonna be the next Green Arrow relaunch.

----------


## Pohzee

> Though Matt Fraction at DC. What are the odds we can get him on the next Nightwing relaunch. Though he’s probably gonna be the next Green Arrow relaunch.


What are the odds Nightwing gets a good writer? Very low. Given recent sampling, I'd say 1 in 9 would be generous.

At this point, I think it would be more likely that a Nightwing series gets cancelled (which is fairly low odds considering his stable sales) than that he would actually get a good writer.

----------


## astro@work

> What are the odds Nightwing gets a good writer? Very low. Given recent sampling, I'd say 1 in 9 would be generous.
> 
> At this point, I think it would be more likely that a Nightwing series gets cancelled (which is fairly low odds considering his stable sales) than that he would actually get a good writer.


Nightwing needs a full relaunch at this point. It will be easier to forget the current travesty after a cancellation, than writing an in-story continuation back to the likeable Dick Grayson. The less said about "Ric" the better.

----------


## Pohzee

The fact that Jimmy is getting a solo out of Leviathan Rising reminds me of the fact that he and Dick were buddies in the Silver age. I'd be down with a teamup between them sometime.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Well the rumour going around from Bleeding Cool is that DC is cutting down their mainline books to just 22 ongoings. Nightwing really may get cut off for the time being. And uh, that #60 solicit really makes me feel like we won't be missing anything.

----------


## Ascended

Didnt Didio already deny that rumor on Facebook? 

*IF* its true that the company is pulling back like that (and I dont believe it is) then yeah, we'd almost certainly lose Nightwing's solo title. Not really a loss these days, to be honest. 

But I cant even say that would be a certainty, though Didio's bias makes it very gods damn likely. Not a lot of DC titles have sales that're are as consistent as Nightwing's and that might be enough justification to keep it going in a smaller schedule. If Didio wasn't the guy in charge I'd think that Dick's book would have solid (not great, but solid) odds of surviving a purge. But since he's the guy in charge I'd expect him to push another title, even if it doesn't have the pedigree or sales record that Dick does.

If DC cuts back, I expect to see Nightwing on a Titans roster. No way will DC not have a Titans book, even if they don't sell as well as Nightwing's. 

Heh, if this rumor does prove to be true, I guess we'll all find out how right I am about my claims that Dick's too viable an IP for the company to drop him, despite Didio's desires.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, as much as i would like for this current series to die. Lets not discount the fact that its approaching issue 60 here. It was also one of the titles they deemed worth double shipping with Rebirth. Plus right now they are already close to the 22 as is. So i think Nightwing would make the cut, though at the same time i could see them packaging him in a Titans book to save space. Which would suck, because when it come to comics the Titans hasn't done him any justice in quite a while.

----------


## Arsenal

> Ya, as much as i would like for this current series to die. Lets not discount the fact that its approaching issue 60 here. It was also one of the titles they deemed worth double shipping with Rebirth. Plus right now they are already close to the 22 as is. So i think Nightwing would make the cut, though at the same time i could see them packaging him in a Titans book to save space. Which would suck, because when it come to comics the Titans hasn't done him any justice in quite a while.


If that happens, maybe we’ll get lucky and Dick will end up on the outsiders instead of the titans.

----------


## Ascended

I think there's solid business sense in keeping Nightwing on the shelves in a smaller DC lineup, but there's also Didio's/management's bias and that's been tripping us up the last few years. And I could just be wrong about the business, too. I think if Didio could justify it, he'd cut the title. And I doubt his bosses in WB really give a damn what is on the shelf as long as the rights remain intact and money is made.

However, I just saw that they announced books for Lois Lane by Rucka *and* Jimmy Olsen by Fraction (set for June releases, I think?). So as far as Im concerned that puts an end to the rumor of a 22 title lineup. No way does Jimmy get a solo title in a field that small.

----------


## oasis1313

> If that happens, maybe well get lucky and Dick will end up on the outsiders instead of the titans.


That would probably be for the best.  Has the promised "Batman and the Outsiders" book ever come out?  I haven't seen it yet.

----------


## oasis1313

> I think there's solid business sense in keeping Nightwing on the shelves in a smaller DC lineup, but there's also Didio's/management's bias and that's been tripping us up the last few years. And I could just be wrong about the business, too. I think if Didio could justify it, he'd cut the title. And I doubt his bosses in WB really give a damn what is on the shelf as long as the rights remain intact and money is made.
> 
> However, I just saw that they announced books for Lois Lane by Rucka *and* Jimmy Olsen by Fraction (set for June releases, I think?). So as far as Im concerned that puts an end to the rumor of a 22 title lineup. No way does Jimmy get a solo title in a field that small.


Didio would rather push a Jimmy Olsen ongoing than a Nightwing series?  Now THAT is some truly SERIOUS hatred.

----------


## Arsenal

> That would probably be for the best.  Has the promised "Batman and the Outsiders" book ever come out?  I haven't seen it yet.


Unless something changes again, it should come out in May

----------


## Badou

> Though Matt Fraction at DC. What are the odds we can get him on the next Nightwing relaunch. Though hes probably gonna be the next Green Arrow relaunch.


I can't imagine any established writer wanting to deal with Nightwing's book outside of the company guys like Jurgens or Lobdell that get put on it just to fill out some issues. Maybe when Bendis eventually moves over to the main Batman book when he is finished with his Superman run some guys like Fraction will be interested in Nightwing, but I think that is a big stretch. 



But really thinking about it I have no idea what they are going to do with Nightwin going forward. Obviously the Ric garbage will end, but is he going to immediately go back to wearing his old blue costume that the one dumb cop is wearing? The costume he was wearing when he got his brains blown out with a sniper? How can you go back to that. Then is he going to just go back to doing the same shit he was doing before? Running around Bludhaven with no real direction? Or are they going to dig through more regurgitated stories and just make him a cop again? Like the whole concept feels creatively bankrupt that I don't really know how you go forward with the character with what they have stuck around him. 

And even if they do cancel the Nightwing book and stick him in just a new relaunched Titans book based on the TV show roster what is that going to do? Swap out Miss Martian for Starfire and it is basically the exact same roster the last Titans book had which was a hotmess. So I don't see what any of that really does.

----------


## WonderNight

Send him back to spyral and or have him globetrotting around the dcu in a team up book.

This bludhevan/Gotham street level batman-lite has not work for nightwing since dixon and its hurting the character. 

Nightwing needs a status quo. One that places him in the greater dcu with a mission and not hey I used to be Robin or hey I'm just like batman but not.

I mean tiger is about to guest in batman, huntress is in love and nightwing is directionless! Why not spyral Or is that not nostalgic enough?

Also someone in the direction for power girl thread thought of a nightwing/ power girl book, plus titans and jsa characters could guest star in the book. But please don't go back to the same old mediocre bludhevan nightwing.

----------


## dietrich

Dick Grayson YJ



https://tayaart.tumblr.com

----------


## dietrich

> Didio would rather push a Jimmy Olsen ongoing than a Nightwing series?  Now THAT is some truly SERIOUS hatred.


I was surprised at that. Dc downsizing and who gets a series or mini series Jimmy Olsen

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a16/1902/f8/6890285a1745.jpg[/IMG]

https://twitter.com/winterRimyeah/st...933700096?s=20

[IMG]https://a.***********/a28/1902/71/793402619423.jpg[/IMG]

https://twitter.com/0022212t/status/...281263616?s=20

----------


## yohyoi

Ric for half a year. 2019 isn't moving fast enough. Ric feels like he has been here for years.

----------


## yohyoi

> Ric will be here in May, The new Batman story is a 5 parter from 70 to 75. Ric Comics are back to monthly so thats guaranteed that Ric will be here July & will be used/not used for the Batman event which considering all the previous interactions is not gonna turn out well for Nightwing because King hasnt written anything positive happening to The Bat Family. Doomsday Clock in finished in July likely wont be that important for Dick Grayson so I dont see Ric going away until September/October or DC May keep him like that forever


2019. Where being written by Tom King is a negative. 180 from last year.

----------


## FireLord

I just read an interview with ZacK Kaplan, and I have to say that I would be curious to see him on Nightwing, without Lobdell for the plot.

----------


## BloodOps

> Ric for half a year. 2019 isn't moving fast enough. Ric feels like he has been here for years.


Yeah, its insulting. Dick Grayson is on the Mt. Rushmore for DC superheroes, yet he gets treated like crap because of bad management.

----------


## Ascended

> I can't imagine any established writer wanting to deal with Nightwing's book outside of the company guys like Jurgens or Lobdell that get put on it just to fill out some issues. Maybe when Bendis eventually moves over to the main Batman book when he is finished with his Superman run some guys like Fraction will be interested in Nightwing, but I think that is a big stretch.


When editors allow the title to be screwed around with for the benefit of another title, I couldn't blame pro's for wanting to avoid the title either. I look forward to someone coming in who'll put a stop to that sh*t. As a fan its annoying, but as a business student it really grinds my gears seeing viable and profitable products abused. There's no gods damn reason for this treatment and it's likely costing DC potential revenue. I know WB doesn't care about the publishing side of DC but you'd think they'd at least demand a degree of professionalism. 




> But really thinking about it I have no idea what they are going to do with Nightwin going forward. Obviously the Ric garbage will end, but is he going to immediately go back to wearing his old blue costume that the one dumb cop is wearing? The costume he was wearing when he got his brains blown out with a sniper? How can you go back to that.


He'll (possibly) go back to the classic costume the same way Bruce went back to his costume after being broken by Bane, same way Clark went back to his costume after being killed, and that applies to Hal, Barry, Arthur, Diana, etc. 

As for what the book does after this Ric nonsense is over......who knows. Didio's proving that the book will sell no matter how terrible it is so we might just keep getting the same kind of crap we have been. Or, if its part of a big new launch within the Bat titles, there might be a new (or old) status quo brought back in. Its comics; everything moves in cycles....we just have to see what the next rotation will bring us.

----------


## Ascended

> I was surprised at that. Dc downsizing and who gets a series or mini series Jimmy Olsen


I think the fact that Jimmy and Lois Lane are getting solo titles pretty much puts that "New22" rumor to bed.

----------


## Drako

The quality is bad, but if you really try you can find Nightwing in the background of this new DCEASED picture.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The quality is bad, but if you really try you can find Nightwing in the background of this new DCEASED picture.


Only question is; is it Dick Nightwing, or is one of the now many imposters?

----------


## dietrich

> Only question is; is it Dick Nightwing, or is one of the now many imposters?


It must be Dick. I don't see the JL working with one of the fakes.

----------


## Godlike13

Its one of the lame nobodies. Thats the only way Nightwing would ever get that kind of nod.

----------


## dropkickjake

Nah Nightwing gets nods all the time. He just doesn't get included in the stories in any meaningful way ever.

----------


## Ascended

I'm wondering what the hell happened to Darkseid? Since when did he go down so easily? I really hate the way DC treats Darkseid like he's just some generic big bad. DC really doesnt get the nuance to him at all 99% of the time.

And what the hell do Ollie, Dick, and Jeff think they're doing there? Fighting Darkseid is no place for people on their level. Batman shouldn't be there either, but.....stupid Batgod........

----------


## Arsenal

> I'm wondering what the hell happened to Darkseid? Since when did he go down so easily? I really hate the way DC treats Darkseid like he's just some generic big bad. DC really doesnt get the nuance to him at all 99% of the time.
> 
> And what the hell do Ollie, Dick, and Jeff think they're doing there? Fighting Darkseid is no place for people on their level. Batman shouldn't be there either, but.....stupid Batgod........


Moral support.

----------


## oasis1313

If it's got a little beer belly and a droopy butt, we'll know it's Alfonzy.

----------


## Badou

Well I wouldn't expect too much from a cover. This is Taylor and he is the writer that killed off Dick in Injustice by having Dick trip over a rock and break his neck, lol.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c19/1902/81/a057fec419ad.jpg[/IMG]

http://axeeeee.tumblr.com/post/59588684310

[IMG]https://a.***********/a02/1902/2a/31b3b49afea5.jpg[/IMG]

http://axeeeee.tumblr.com/post/65432483006

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d43/1902/19/7274b2bbca1f.png[/IMG]

http://stariver00.tumblr.com/post/182869351845/d

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

What are you guys even saying, that's very obviously Dick. DCeased is not in main continuity. We should just be hoping he's not going to get tripped and die by landing on a rock again, this is Taylor's book.

Edit: Oh, I see Badou's already said what needed to be said lol.

----------


## Arsenal

Nah, this time he’s gonna pull a Tony Ferguson and break his leg tripping over a cord then get infected by the virus thing

----------


## Jackalope89

Anyway, speculation time;

With the way Young Justice (animated series) is built, it stands to reason that Jason and Dick were probably closer in this world than most others before Jason's death. Making the whole "Gray-son?" line all the more meaningful. In other words; probably less of a Richard during his transition to Nightwing than in main continuity to the second Robin. And I really hope that they have more interactions in season 3.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Anyway, speculation time;
> 
> With the way Young Justice (animated series) is built, it stands to reason that Jason and Dick were probably closer in this world than most others before Jason's death. Making the whole "Gray-son?" line all the more meaningful. In other words; probably less of a Richard during his transition to Nightwing than in main continuity to the second Robin. And I really hope that they have more interactions in season 3.


that depends on the attitude of jason

originally yes
then he got reconnected into a jerk as a kid

so who knows

----------


## Jackalope89

> that depends on the attitude of jason
> 
> originally yes
> then he got reconnected into a jerk as a kid
> 
> so who knows


Original Jason was a blonde Dick Grayson clone. Circus acrobats, parents killed when rope was cut, etc. Retcon Jason was at least his own character.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ric's here till the current series ends i'd bet.
> 
> Also seems Ric is becoming a guest in this own book, lol.


D'oh for fluff sake. 

I just got done with Kingdom Hearts 3 and this is still going. I'm moving on to Resident Evil 2.

----------


## Badou

> He'll (possibly) go back to the classic costume the same way Bruce went back to his costume after being broken by Bane, same way Clark went back to his costume after being killed, and that applies to Hal, Barry, Arthur, Diana, etc. 
> 
> As for what the book does after this Ric nonsense is over......who knows. Didio's proving that the book will sell no matter how terrible it is so we might just keep getting the same kind of crap we have been. Or, if its part of a big new launch within the Bat titles, there might be a new (or old) status quo brought back in. Its comics; everything moves in cycles....we just have to see what the next rotation will bring us.


I feel that it is a bit different though. Dick got shot in the head because he wears no protective head gear. It is a very clear visual problem as opposed to a Bruce who got his back broken while wearing his Batman suit. You could say that Bruce added more protective elements to his suit's back to help prevent it from happening again, but it is irrelevant since it wouldn't be something you obviously see. Here Dick got shot in the head by KGBeast and to go back and wear the same thing feels strange. Then again Dick, or Ric, is basically acting like a dumb hero again and not wearing anything so I guess it is a meaningless point I'm bringing up, lol. Though I think Dick going back and wearing the same costume the dumb cop Nightwing is wearing is a problem. 

That being said I think all this will get ignored obviously. Same with stuff like what Dick's opinions are on KGBeast who shot him and what he will do if he sees him again, or how other people in the Batman family can't really argue against him with points about their own traumatic events when Dick got his brains blown out. So elements of their dynamics should be changed forever, but this story is so shit I can't see anyone really doing anything like that with it.

----------


## dropkickjake

I mean, do you want fallout from this? Dick changing headgear bc of this would be terrible. He has always worn just the domino mask. This will probably be ignored, you're right, and that is the only saving grace to this at all. Once its done, the next writer should be able to pretend this didn't happen.

----------


## Elmo

If I was writing Dick I would say his acrobatic skills are just too good for him to get shot in the head. just let him dodge bullets. I've seen acrobats do crazy things in real life

----------


## oasis1313

> I mean, do you want fallout from this? Dick changing headgear bc of this would be terrible. He has always worn just the domino mask. This will probably be ignored, you're right, and that is the only saving grace to this at all. Once its done, the next writer should be able to pretend this didn't happen.


Nightwing doesn't have a cape because Dick found it cumbersome.

----------


## Godlike13

They can always go the "hey i took a sniper shot to the head, and didn't die. I must have one of the most durable heads ever" route.

----------


## Jackalope89

> They can always go the "hey i took a sniper shot to the head, and didn't die. I most have one of the most durable heads ever" route.


This just reminded me of Skyrim.

"I used to be a costumed hero like you, until I took a bullet to the head."

----------


## Arsenal

> They can always go the "hey i took a sniper shot to the head, and didn't die. I most have one of the most durable heads ever" route.


Or the “I won’t let getting shot in the head change who I am” route (Ric won’t count because Ric don’t know who he is)

----------


## Pohzee

Or it could be that he just forgets about needing to protect his head  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jackalope89

> Or it could be that he just forgets about needing to protect his head


Maybe take a cue from Jason and start wearing a helmet?

----------


## dropkickjake

> Maybe take a cue from Jason and start wearing a helmet?


That would be the worst.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That would be the worst.


Not a red one, but something like the Thor helmet, but blue?

----------


## dropkickjake

Dudes worn domino masks since 1940. There are very few exceptions to that in 79 years. Changing his (dare I say) iconic look because of a throwaway storyline that exists to advance the Bat writer's plot and is allowed because the eic doesn't like the character would be a huge mistake.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ric's here till the current series ends i'd bet.
> 
> Also seems Ric is becoming a guest in this own book, lol.


Doesn't even look like a guest shot--more like a cameo.  The variant covers are lovely, but they're false advertising.

----------


## byrd156

> Not a red one, but something like the Thor helmet, but blue?


That would be awful.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That would be awful.


Ugh. Fine! He can wear the watermelon helmet.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Ugh. Fine! He can wear the watermelon helmet.


Penis shaped? Now we’re getting somewhere

----------


## Pohzee

I'm not a big fan of half-cowls, but there is some precedence for him wearing it.

----------


## Arsenal

Just give him Jason’s old pill helmet, paint it blue and call it a day.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Give him a full toku costume, it should take a laser to the head to put him down next time, thereby making it just that much more ridiculous for another writer to pull this kinda stunt.

And an actual suit of advanced armour would certainly make it harder for another writer to pull the luddite route like Percy. I'm pretty tired of Dick acting incompetent because he's the low-tech guy in the domino mask who needs Babs or Tim to literally do anything involving a computer (this isn't just Percy, we even had it happen in Grayson it just wasn't so egregious).

----------


## Drako

He used a cowl as Batman and Morrison still managed to shoot him in the head.

----------


## oasis1313

The torso is easier to aim for than the head and Dick (used to) routinely wade into whole gangs where every guy was carrying guns.  There's no need to put a helmet on him.  Jason doesn't even wear his helmet for protection; it was first there to remind Batman of his greatest failure--now it's modified into a feedbag so he can snack on the go.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

If they make him change his mask, he should just upgrade to the half mask from Arkham Knight he worse. Grayson will never be a helmet man. 

Also, who wants to bet that they'll take this ric thing all the way to 2020? Sure feels like they will.

----------


## oasis1313

If my hair was that good, I wouldn't wear a helmet.

Right now, Ric feels like forever.  Quick, bring me my back issues!

----------


## Ascended

I'd very much like to get Dick into an advanced, Batman Beyond suit (Ive talked about that a ton). But no full helmet. Yeah, Dick got hurt because he left his head exposed. That kind of exposure is stupid if we're applying real world logic, but this is comics and logic doesn't belong here. 

Dick wears a domino mask. Always has. And this injury is no reason to change it.

No, the real question is how well Dick is going to fare this new shift in DC's schedule. If the word is legit, the mainline titles are going to get trimmed down. Will Dick's solo survive, or will Didio win and get him quarantined to Titans alone? I'm not trying to start a panic here, and let's all remember that Nightwing has survived low points and mismanagement before. But I haven't followed this news too closely until today's "confirmation" so I'm asking those who might be more knowledgeable.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick got hurt because an expert sniper found the perfect perch and had the best long-range rifles,  Dick could have dressed up like Mark Moonrider and the right armor-piercing bullets could take it right out.

----------


## byrd156

> I'd very much like to get Dick into an advanced, Batman Beyond suit (Ive talked about that a ton). But no full helmet. Yeah, Dick got hurt because he left his head exposed. That kind of exposure is stupid if we're applying real world logic, but this is comics and logic doesn't belong here. 
> 
> Dick wears a domino mask. Always has. And this injury is no reason to change it.
> 
> No, the real question is how well Dick is going to fare this new shift in DC's schedule. If the word is legit, the mainline titles are going to get trimmed down. Will Dick's solo survive, or will Didio win and get him quarantined to Titans alone? I'm not trying to start a panic here, and let's all remember that Nightwing has survived low points and mismanagement before. But I haven't followed this news too closely until today's "confirmation" so I'm asking those who might be more knowledgeable.


I don't think Didio would get rid of Dick. The amount of constant feedback he gets about Wally, if Dick was taken too a huge part of the DC fanbase would be pissed. He's had his fun torturing Wally fans right now, I think Dick fans getting pissed would be too much for him. I'm finally starting to see Dick fans across social media actually getting upset about Dick's situation, finally.

----------


## Godlike13

Not too long ago Nightwing was one of the books DC deemed worth double shipping. So part of me wants to believe Dick will continue to have solo in some form even with the shift. I mean 60 issues is not an easy feat in today’s market. That being said that same book is currently knee deep in its editorial’s failings, and is seemingly the toilet of the Bat office so who the hell knows.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d18/1902/c3/84281c360194.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Dami

http://mayhw.tumblr.com/post/1829331...ick-and-damian

[IMG]https://d.***********/d25/1902/fa/939d192ad0b7.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Kory
http://illustrate.pink/post/78297489...rawing-to-post

----------


## Schumiac

If because of this nonsense we expect Nightwing to start wearing protective headgear, then I also demand Batman stop meeting with Gordon on top of the same rooftop every time he lights up the signal, because THAT played a major part in the assasination. Normally Bat-family are supposed to be hard to snipe as they hide in shadows and are stealthy and are the ones to do the sneaking up, but on top of that rooftop they are an open target and easy to find...  When you think about it, the Bat Signal is a stupid way of communication for Gordon and Batman to have in this technological age... Very outdated, inconvenient, and exploitable... Gordon can still  light it to intimidate criminals etc but the real communication method can be a secure wireless line between them. But it is one of the things that makes Batman, Batman, so has to stay as is. As does Nightwing's costume.

Dick Grayson/Nightwing IS worth double shipping. Hobo Ric & Nightwing-Wanna-Bes are not, they are not even worth a monthly shipping. Not surprised during this time they cut back on the shipping as the creators have absolutely nothing to fill these issues with and I am sure even writing this comic monthly is a pain in the ass for them -thus the dismal state the comics is in... Ric is just a filler character meant to waste our time (and money) as King takes his sweet time with his Batman story which requires Dick to be out of commission as cant have him help keeping Batman sane and safe... And DC probably didn't want to cancel a well selling title and wanted to continue to cash in so instead of "he is in recovery/hospital, so on hiatus" we got this Ric stuff where he is back but isnt.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c29/1902/44/7d87495054d3.jpg[/IMG]

Detective Comics #1004 variant cover by Mark Brooks

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b27/1902/57/ea17ddeb4f34.jpg[/IMG]

http://kisa-ombra.tumblr.com/post/182961402068

----------


## Rac7d*

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b27/1902/57/ea17ddeb4f34.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> http://kisa-ombra.tumblr.com/post/182961402068


why is nightwings hair weird

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing’s, look at Damian LoL.

----------


## Schumiac

> why is nightwings hair weird


pretty sure it is inspired by Batman Ninja

Batman-Ninja-Heroes-600x338.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPFxcefpdU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Su73Lmj5o

----------


## Ascended

> I don't think Didio would get rid of Dick. The amount of constant feedback he gets about Wally, if Dick was taken too a huge part of the DC fanbase would be pissed. He's had his fun torturing Wally fans right now, I think Dick fans getting pissed would be too much for him. I'm finally starting to see Dick fans across social media actually getting upset about Dick's situation, finally.


This is my feeling as well. It's hard to ignore the profitability of the IP. It's outlived Arrow and Titans, despite both having successful larger media adaptations. It sells with the kind of consistency most titles wish they could find. Dick's one of the most well connected characters in DC, has been around longer than 95% of the other big names.....really, the only reason to *not* push Dick is because the sales ceiling seems low; even the much loved Grayson series didn't get much higher than the usual sales average. But it's easy to counter that specific failing (and its not even really a failing) simply by pointing out that Grayson succeeded without the brand power of the Nightwing title and costume.

I've maintained from the start that Dick is too big for Didio to hold down for long and I still believe that. But I was wondering what everyone else thinks, with this new smaller schedule seemingly confirmed.

----------


## Pohzee

I expect Dick to get folded into the Titans upon return to coincide with his evolution into Nightwing in Titans S2.

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b27/1902/57/ea17ddeb4f34.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> http://kisa-ombra.tumblr.com/post/182961402068


Alfred with a little ponytail is AWESOME.

Back to the topic at hand, I think Didio is UTTERLY INSATIABLE when it comes to torturing Dick Grayson fans.  He's tired of being sweet-talked out of his greatest ambition of killing Dick so he's doing it indirectly by essentially writing the character out of his own book.

----------


## Rac7d*

> pretty sure it is inspired by Batman Ninja
> 
> Batman-Ninja-Heroes-600x338.jpg
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPFxcefpdU
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Su73Lmj5o


yes see how its not spiked in the drawing

----------


## oasis1313

It's just "windswept".

----------


## Drako

> pretty sure it is inspired by Batman Ninja
> 
> Batman-Ninja-Heroes-600x338.jpg
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPFxcefpdU
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Su73Lmj5o


Not inspired, it's actually a scene from the movie.

They change the art style for some of the scenes.

----------


## oasis1313

A lot of people didn't like "Batman Ninja" but I thought it was crazy fun.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> A lot of people didn't like "Batman Ninja" but I thought it was crazy fun.


Dick has 3 minutes of screen time in it and hes already more heroic and fun and in-character than him In his own main comic series. We got you, Bruce. Networking like a boss in his time in Japan before Bruce came, and a leader of the bunch in the end credit.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick has 3 minutes of screen time in it and he’s already more heroic and fun and in-character than him In his own main comic series. “We got you, Bruce.” Networking like a boss in his time in Japan before Bruce came, and a leader of the bunch in the end credit.


It doesn’t take much to make a great character like Dick Grayson shine.  I’m amazed that Didio was creative enough to find a way to write Dick out of his OWN book.

----------


## Schumiac

> It doesn’t take much to make a great character like Dick Grayson shine.  I’m amazed that Didio was creative enough to find a way to write Dick out of his OWN book.


He isnt.... But he is clever enough to make use of the opportunity King created, it seems...

It is so annoying that Nightwing needs to get "approval" of the Nightwing-wanna-be to be one of the lame Nightwings running around... ugh ugh ugh.

and dont get me even started on his inspiration for going back to heroics being the obnoxious new girl he has the hots for... Their entire conversation was cringe-worthy btw. 

"never stop doing what you do babe"
"I couldnt even if I wanted to. If I see someone in need of help, I HAVE to do something about it, I cant stop. because that is how awesome and good and wonderful and inspiring I am, am I not just the best?" - _CRINGE_

"She is as powerful as 100 Nightwings. A real superhero" ugh...  I swear it feels like Didio is personaly writing all these stuff.

I want her to turn out to be a criminal mastermind.... Or turn into one.

PS: I totaled LOLed at the fact he got recognized & identified by the cop thanks to the big head scar he has, and he was being soooo clever making himself a mask out of soot, awww, poor Ric...

----------


## Godlike13

I wanted Babs to beat the crap out of her. "Stop enabling this brain damaged idiot" Whack! "Being a filthy hobo is not sexy" Wham!

----------


## Schumiac

> I wanted Babs to beat the crap out of her. "Stop enabling this brain damaged idiot" Whack!


That's what sealed the deal for me, her holding Babs' hands as she gets ready to give her the "your ex moved on, you need to move on too" speech. Felt like underneath all the sweet talk and niceness she is actually a bit bitchy and controlling. Dick didn't "move on". he got brain damage and is suffering from amnesia and OF COURSE his loved ones will come check on him and want him to do his best to get better... Telling one of them to "move on" is weird, esp if Bea thougth Babs' was Dick's girlfriend. Ummm, excuse me, who do you think you are to tell someone to move on and leave their sick boyfriend be? The woman clearly doesn't want Dick to get better as she loves having Ric as her boy-toy with the baby blue eyes, I guess...

----------


## Vinsanity

> That's what sealed the deal for me, her holding Babs' hands as she gets ready to give her the "your ex moved on, you need to move on too" speech. Felt like underneath all the sweet talk and niceness she is actually a bit bitchy and controlling. Dick didn't "move on". he got brain damage and is suffering from amnesia and OF COURSE his loved ones will come check on him and want him to do his best to get better... Telling one of them to "move on" is weird, esp if Bea thougth Babs' was Dick's girlfriend. Ummm, excuse me, who do you think you are to tell someone to move on and leave their sick boyfriend be? The woman clearly doesn't want Dick to get better as she loves having Ric as her boy-toy with the baby blue eyes, I guess...


Lol yeah, it is kind of messed up.

Babs low key wanted to knock her out.

----------


## dietrich

Discarded Metal art



https://twitter.com/stjepansejic

----------


## AHRNIHAL

Which nightwing will in a fight?YJ3 or animated movie version of nightwing?

----------


## oasis1313

> That's what sealed the deal for me, her holding Babs' hands as she gets ready to give her the "your ex moved on, you need to move on too" speech. Felt like underneath all the sweet talk and niceness she is actually a bit bitchy and controlling. Dick didn't "move on". he got brain damage and is suffering from amnesia and OF COURSE his loved ones will come check on him and want him to do his best to get better... Telling one of them to "move on" is weird, esp if Bea thougth Babs' was Dick's girlfriend. Ummm, excuse me, who do you think you are to tell someone to move on and leave their sick boyfriend be? The woman clearly doesn't want Dick to get better as she loves having Ric as her boy-toy with the baby blue eyes, I guess...


If Ric can find a woman who likes filthy winos, he'd better hang onto her.

----------


## Pohzee

> Which nightwing will in a fight?YJ3 or animated movie version of nightwing?


Nightwing gets punkes in DC's crappy animes. He's had largely good showings in YJ.

----------


## Armor of God

> Which nightwing will in a fight?YJ3 or animated movie version of nightwing?


Dick had some good feats as Robin in YJ but I dont think he's done anything worth of note as Nightwing, his last fight was with Tommy Terror and he was losing that. Animated Nightwing doesn't have a stellar win record but he has good displays of skill and against other skilled opponents, he just needs to be toughened up a bit.

----------


## Aahz

> Discarded Metal art
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/stjepansejic


I really would have liked tom see Metall redesigns for all Batfamily members.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b39/1902/dd/a74a33a225db.jpg[/IMG]

Detective Comics 1000 variant by Rodolfo Migliari
https://twitter.com/HarlowC/status/1...026822656?s=20

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Dick had some good feats as Robin in YJ but I dont think he's done anything worth of note as Nightwing, his last fight was with Tommy Terror and he was losing that. Animated Nightwing doesn't have a stellar win record but he has good displays of skill and against other skilled opponents, he just needs to be toughened up a bit.


Tommy Terror is Superboy-tier. The fact that Dick was able to outmaneuver him a bit is impressive in its own right. And let's not forget the "game of tag" where he completely outmaneuvered Brion, Violet, and Forager without trying. Or back in Invasion where he completely bodied Bart when Bart was being introduced. I do think he needs to get more solo focus in action scenes the way he got in Season 1 and didn't in Invasion, but I think they've done a good job at showing how skilled he is without making it a big deal. Remember the scene in the opening arc of Outsiders, where Dick just removes the lab coat he'd just put on, but emerges in full darkwear gear? We don't get that stuff in the comics anymore (even ignoring Ric, we just don't see that master of disguise stuff at all with the Batfamily).

I mean, ultimately, YJO Dick is the most competent and capable version of Dick we've had since Grayson ended.

----------


## Ascended

> I really would have liked tom see Metall redesigns for all Batfamily members.


I didn't read any of the tie-ins so I missed everything with Dick, but I really did like that look. Almost makes me think he should get a cape again. 

Almost.

----------


## oasis1313

> I didn't read any of the tie-ins so I missed everything with Dick, but I really did like that look. Almost makes me think he should get a cape again. 
> 
> Almost.


Might not be a bad idea.  He looks nice in them.

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b39/1902/dd/a74a33a225db.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Detective Comics 1000 variant by Rodolfo Migliari
> https://twitter.com/HarlowC/status/1...026822656?s=20


This is awesome.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b39/1902/dd/a74a33a225db.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Detective Comics 1000 variant by Rodolfo Migliari
> https://twitter.com/HarlowC/status/1...026822656?s=20


Not a fan of this. Why do artists keep reminding us of this reprehensible suit.
This would have been fantastic if Dick wasn't dressed like that.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Not a fan of this. Why do artists keep reminding us of this reprehensible suit.
> This would have been fantastic if Dick wasn't dressed like that.


Reprehensible? Him and Babs are wearing their classic suits on the one thousandth issue of Tec to celebrate the history of Batman...

Would you prefer the n52 robin suit, cuz...

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Reprehensible? Him and Babs are wearing their classic suits on the one thousandth issue of Tec to celebrate the history of Batman...
> 
> Would you prefer the n52 robin suit, cuz...


The Titans version of his N52 suit has been his best Robin suit so far tbh

----------


## dietrich

> Reprehensible? Him and Babs are wearing their classic suits on the one thousandth issue of Tec to celebrate the history of Batman...
> 
> Would you prefer the n52 robin suit, cuz...


Yes I would prefer the new 52 suit. Classic doesn't mean right or good or tasteful and while I get that it is history and all that. This is a suit I hate and I wish DC would just erase it. It's a joke at best and sinister at worst.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Yes I would prefer the new 52 suit. Classic doesn't mean right or good or tasteful and while I get that it is history and all that. This is a suit I hate and I wish DC would just erase it. It's a joke at best and sinister at worst.


The N52 suit really isn't that bad except for the lack of belt. If that was there, it wouldn't recieve much criticism.

----------


## dropkickjake

> The N52 suit really isn't that bad except for the lack of belt. If that was there, it wouldn't recieve much criticism.


Nah. The problem is how visually "busy" it is. Without simplifying whats there, a belt would probably just make matters worse.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nah. The problem is how visually "busy" it is. Without simplifying whats there, a belt would probably just make matters worse.


I remember fans begging DC for a new Robin look for decades--the one he wore for meeting the JSA Robin was pretty good--and being told it couldn't be changed due to copyright and marketing.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Not a fan of this. Why do artists keep reminding us of this reprehensible suit.
> This would have been fantastic if Dick wasn't dressed like that.





> Yes I would prefer the new 52 suit. Classic doesn't mean right or good or tasteful and while I get that it is history and all that. This is a suit I hate and I wish DC would just erase it. It's a joke at best and sinister at worst.


Just because you find it distasteful doesn't mean it should be erased from history.  It's not a bad suit...a little more on display than the usual super hero outfit.  And it's definitely  not "sinister."

----------


## babybats

I actually love his original suit, scaly panties and all.  I just think it's such a strong design.  But yeah, it is totally weird and unrealistic and maybe even creepy.  But it's comics and it's fun to celebrate the past like this.  Love the cover.  Panties need more scales, though.

----------


## Schumiac

There is something I love in the way Dick and Babs look so proud and totally focused on something else as Bruce is looking the other way, at Gordon... lol

----------


## Arsenal

> There is something I love in the way Dick and Babs look so proud and totally focused on something else as Bruce is looking the other way, at Gordon... lol


I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t even notice Bruce or Gordon were on the cover at all.

----------


## dietrich



----------


## dietrich

> Just because you find it distasteful doesn't mean it should be erased from history.  It's not a bad suit...a little more on display than the usual super hero outfit.  And it's definitely  not "sinister."


Which is why why I said* wish not should.*  You missed that part didn't you?

How much it displays is just one of the many problems. The suit Offers no protection and isn't tactical in any way. the others[Bruce and Babs] at least can blend into the background.

It is objectively a bad suit.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick has better legs than Barbara.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Which is why why I said* wish not should.*  You missed that part didn't you?
> 
> How much it displays is just one of the many problems. The suit Offers no protection and isn't tactical in any way. the others[Bruce and Babs] at least can blend into the background.
> 
> It is objectively a bad suit.



See, and then you said “objective.” This is fantasy. Comics have always exostes in a sliding scale of realism. “Tactical” didn’t matter in 40s comics like today. Calling it objectively bad is anachronistic. It certainly doesn’t fit the contemporary comic climate, but that’s not the point of the cover. 

“Subjectively bad” makes perfect sense. It’s jot my favorite robin suit either. “Objectively bad,” though, is quite the claim.

----------


## dietrich

> See, and then you said “objective.” This is fantasy. Comics have always exostes in a sliding scale of realism. “Tactical” didn’t matter in 40s comics like today. Calling it objectively bad is anachronistic. It certainly doesn’t fit the contemporary comic climate, but that’s not the point of the cover. 
> 
> “Subjectively bad” makes perfect sense. It’s jot my favorite robin suit either. “Objectively bad,” though, is quite the claim.


No even for 1940's comics it's still objectively bad. 1940's batman might not be in kevlar but he knows to blend into the night and to protect himself from the elements. If you're  okay with the leotards. Fine. Have at it. Me I thank god for Damian and pants [not of a fan of Tim's tights either] and wish Dc would erase this suit. Now lets move on this.

----------


## oasis1313

> No even for 1940's comics it's still objectively bad. 1940's batman might not be in kevlar but he knows to blend into the night and to protect himself from the elements. If you're  okay with the leotards. Fine. Have at it. Me I thank god for Damian and pants [not of a fan of Tim's tights either] and wish Dc would erase this suit. Now lets move on this.


It was surprising to see that cover.  I thought DC wanted to "erase" the Golden Age era suit and let Dick wear long pants.

----------


## byrd156

> Yes I would prefer the new 52 suit. Classic doesn't mean right or good or tasteful and while I get that it is history and all that. This is a suit I hate and I wish DC would just erase it. It's a joke at best and sinister at worst.


That's how I would describe DC's redesigns for it....  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## byrd156

> No even for 1940's comics it's still objectively bad. 1940's batman might not be in kevlar but he knows to blend into the night and to protect himself from the elements. If you're  okay with the leotards. Fine. Have at it. Me I thank god for Damian and pants [not of a fan of Tim's tights either] and wish Dc would erase this suit. Now lets move on this.


What is so "objective" about it's badness?

----------


## oasis1313

> Yes I would prefer the new 52 suit. Classic doesn't mean right or good or tasteful and while I get that it is history and all that. This is a suit I hate and I wish DC would just erase it. It's a joke at best and sinister at worst.


DC's entire treatment of Dick Grayson has been sinister for some time now.  Their hatred of their own IP is obvious.

----------


## AHRNIHAL

> DC's entire treatment of Dick Grayson has been sinister for some time now.  Their hatred of their own IP is obvious.


I know the feeling.

----------


## oasis1313

I guess that after he didn't get to kill Dick in those cross-over events, Didio's hatred went underground and he began to plan to destroy the character in a more indirect way--Tom King probably got a bonus check for coming up with the head shot that turned Dick Grayson into Hobo Ric.

----------


## dropkickjake

> No even for 1940's comics it's still objectively bad.


Nope, its still _subjectively_ bad. You do not like it. It is not to your taste. Others do like it. Neither is correct to the exclusion of the other.





> 1940's batman might not be in kevlar but he knows to blend into the night and to protect himself from the elements.


Here again you subjecting something historical to contemporary standards. Batman's classic suit passes the contemporary test of being useful or functional in some way to a story that is grounded in some sort of realism. This was not the purpose of super hero costumes in the 40s, nor were they intended to have anywhere near the realism that many expect from comics today. 

Had you said "That Robin suit has no place in contemporary comics," I'd have agreed with you. But you started throwing out the work "objective," in reference to your personal taste.




> If you're  okay with the leotards. Fine. Have at it. Me I thank god for Damian and pants [not of a fan of Tim's tights either] and wish Dc would erase this suit. Now lets move on this.


This post was essentially "I'm right, you're wrong, its over." That's not how discussions work.

----------


## oasis1313

The little scaly panties were endurable when Robin is a little kid, but after puberty they need to put on long pants.  Especially in the winter.

----------


## TheCape

So i ditched Nightwing after Seely's left, but i decided to catch up with what i lost after that.

Humphries was surprisingly more enjoyable than i expected and i thought that i was a solid arc. Percy was... strange, especially with Dick opinion on tech, but it was entertaining, for what it was, i especially enjoyed the two parter "Harm's Way".

I also read the first 3 issues of Ric. Dear god, is worse that i was expecting lol, can't wait for that arc to be over.

----------


## Schumiac

> I also read the first 3 issues of Ric. Dear god, is worse that i was expecting lol, can't wait for that arc to be over.


Cant say we didn't warn you...  :Smile:

----------


## oasis1313

> So i ditched Nightwing after Seely's left, but i decided to catch up with what i lost after that.
> 
> Humphries was surprisingly more enjoyable than i expected and i thought that i was a solid arc. Percy was... strange, especially with Dick opinion on tech, but it was entertaining, for what it was, i especially enjoyed the two parter "Harm's Way".
> 
> I also read the first 3 issues of Ric. Dear god, is worse that i was expecting lol, can't wait for that arc to be over.


Neither can I.  Just don't see an end in sight and growing weary of it.

----------


## dropkickjake

> So i ditched Nightwing after Seely's left, but i decided to catch up with what i lost after that.
> 
> Humphries was surprisingly more enjoyable than i expected and i thought that i was a solid arc. Percy was... strange, especially with Dick opinion on tech, but it was entertaining, for what it was, i especially enjoyed the two parter "Harm's Way".
> 
> I also read the first 3 issues of Ric. Dear god, is worse that i was expecting lol, can't wait for that arc to be over.


I felt the exact same about Humphries! Wasn’t expecting much, but I liked it quite a bit.

----------


## oasis1313

> I felt the exact same about Humphries! Wasn’t expecting much, but I liked it quite a bit.


Ha--just when we think it's all hit rock bottom--Darlin' Dan has a nice deep trench in the North Atlantic to drag us down to.

----------


## Slim Shady

> So i ditched Nightwing after Seely's left, but i decided to catch up with what i lost after that.
> 
> Humphries was surprisingly more enjoyable than i expected and i thought that i was a solid arc. Percy was... strange, especially with Dick opinion on tech, but it was entertaining, for what it was, i especially enjoyed the two parter "Harm's Way".
> 
> I also read the first 3 issues of Ric. Dear god, is worse that i was expecting lol, can't wait for that arc to be over.


I was in the same situation except I missed the Humphries stuff. With the exception of Dick acting weird about tech, I enjoyed Percy's first arc for the most part, not great but not bad. Things improved with Harm's Way which I liked more. I gave the Ric thing a try through the Scarecrow since he's one of my favorites. I threw in the towel after that.

I've stopped reading Nightwing and Batman at the same time, not sure when the last time that's happened. At least I can go back to Tomasi and Tek for my Batman now, but Nightwing I'm done until we move past Ric and get a new creative team, whenever and whoever that is.

----------


## oasis1313

> I was in the same situation except I missed the Humphries stuff. With the exception of Dick acting weird about tech, I enjoyed Percy's first arc for the most part, not great but not bad. Things improved with Harm's Way which I liked more. I gave the Ric thing a try through the Scarecrow since he's one of my favorites. I threw in the towel after that.
> 
> I've stopped reading Nightwing and Batman at the same time, not sure when the last time that's happened. At least I can go back to Tomasi and Tek for my Batman now, but Nightwing I'm done until we move past Ric and get a new creative team, whenever and whoever that is.


The Humphries stuff was great compared to what we're getting now.  I haven't had any incentive to actually GO to the comics shop for a few months now.

----------


## Godlike13

I had issues with Humphries arc but it was light years better than this Ric shit. I became sold on Percy’s run with the Annual. I still don’t think Mooneyham was a good fit for Percy’s run though.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I had issues with Humphries arc but it was light years better than this Ric shit. I become sold on Percy’s run with the Annual. I still don’t think Mooneyham was a good fit for Percy’s run though.


Yeah, I think the overall story was a weird fit for Dick as well. The current artist with Percy would have been great.

----------


## dietrich

Percy wanted to have Dick suffer from Vertigo right? I thought that would have been an interesting premise. I was looking forward to that.

I've enjoyed all the writers until Ric even the Lanzing and Morecei one shots.

----------


## TheCape

Humphries pretty much wrote 80s Dick with some elements of Bludhaven Dick and the story is pretty simple but enjoyable, wouldn't have mind seing more his take.

Percy take was a bit on the nose, but it worked for me, i do agreed that the artist wasn't the rigth one. His problem is that he likes to give some sort of "relevant" political or social message and usually come across as heavy handed and ridiculous, he is at his best when he goes full into superheroics , that's why Harm's Way is his best arc, brief as it was.

Now Ric, man is like i'm watching a car crash before my eyes or seeing an old friend taking terrible decisions and being unable to stop him, Barbara was pretty much me in that whole story lol. Is surprising how i didn't enjoy anything happening in the book, i haven't feel like that since Rob William's Suicide Squad.

----------


## oasis1313

> I had issues with Humphries arc but it was light years better than this Ric shit. I become sold on Percy’s run with the Annual. I still don’t think Mooneyham was a good fit for Percy’s run though.


He tries to emulate Klaus Jansen, but Klaus has a rather particular aspect to his genius that seems to be his alone.  Besides, I think Dick Grayson should have an artist that knows how to draw pretty people.

----------


## oasis1313

Sorry for two posts--but what would you guys think of bringing in Ed Brubaker?  I've always liked his writing, and if he could resurrect Bucky respectfully, he could work wonders for Dick.  He's probably too expensive for DC, but I was thinking about who could help us.

----------


## TheCape

> Sorry for two posts--but what would you guys think of bringing in Ed Brubaker?  I've always liked his writing, and if he could resurrect Bucky respectfully, he could work wonders for Dick.  He's probably too expensive for DC, but I was thinking about who could help us.


He could bring more focus to the spy side of Dick, wich seems to be what most of his fans want, so i wouldn't oppose it. But i doubt that he is interested in working with any of the big two again.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Sorry for two posts--but what would you guys think of bringing in Ed Brubaker?  I've always liked his writing, and if he could resurrect Bucky respectfully, he could work wonders for Dick.  He's probably too expensive for DC, but I was thinking about who could help us.


I’m a Brubaker fan. I’m sure he could write a pretty good Nighwing. I have no idea if it’s possible or not.

----------


## oasis1313

> Im a Brubaker fan. Im sure he could write a pretty good Nighwing. I have no idea if its possible or not.


Yeah, I love Brubaker's writing.  Unless he has a rich dead uncle, why wouldn't he be interested in a paycheck?  If I was Didio and called Ed up saying, "Hey, man--how about pitching me some great ideas for renovating Nightwing?  I promise I won't mess with you for at least a year."

----------


## dietrich

sexy nightwing




https://twitter.com/1418mogmog

----------


## oasis1313

I was wondering what Didio could do to us next:
(1)  Joker and/or Harvey Dent pour acid on Dick Grayson's face.
(2)  Ric develops a ravenous obsession with Krispy Kreme doughnuts.
(3)  Leprosy.
I'm not sure a sex-change operation would be a killer blow.

----------


## byrd156

As awful as Dick's situation is he is still doing better than the rest of the Titans. Poor bastards.

----------


## Arsenal

> I was wondering what Didio could do to us next:
> (1)  Joker and/or Harvey Dent pour acid on Dick Grayson's face.
> (2)  Ric develops a ravenous obsession with Krispy Kreme doughnuts.
> (3)  Leprosy.
> I'm not sure a sex-change operation would be a killer blow.


(4) Dick becomes the Joker JR From Batman Beyond

----------


## oasis1313

> (4) Dick becomes the Joker JR From Batman Beyond


(5) Dick is revealed to be The Joker's Daughter.

----------


## Mr. White

> (5) Dick is revealed to be The Joker's Daughter.


Hahaha. Stop it!

----------


## oasis1313

> Hahaha. Stop it!


Hey, we're on a roll here.  What else could Didio do to make us wish we had Hobo Ric back?

----------


## Vinsanity

> As awful as Dick's situation is he is still doing better than the rest of the Titans. Poor bastards.


I'm meh on most of them except Kyle (why is he a Titan again) and Donna.

----------


## WonderNight

I know this is off topic but rewatched YJO and saw beware the batman for the first time and man lady shiva was boss in both. My question is would you guys mind if lady shiva became nightwings arch nemesis? I believe there's great potential for both as nemesis.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I know this is off topic but rewatched YJO and saw beware the batman for the first time and man lady shiva was boss in both. My question is would you guys mind if lady shiva became nightwings arch nemesis? I believe there's great potential for both as nemesis.


Problem is, is that she would be better as Cass' arch nemesis, being her mother and all. And being one of the best and most dangerous non-meta fighters in the world (I think only a bare few, like Cass and Jason, have ever actually beaten her).

----------


## Badou

> I know this is off topic but rewatched YJO and saw beware the batman for the first time and man lady shiva was boss in both. My question is would you guys mind if lady shiva became nightwings arch nemesis? I believe there's great potential for both as nemesis.


They tried that in the New 52. Shiva debuted in the Nightwing book for her first appearance and it was kind of a disaster. She had a horrible design and everything about it was just very bad. It was also the story that showed Dick as Robin for the first time in the New 52 with his awful New 52 Robin design, lol.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Problem is, is that she would be better as Cass' arch nemesis, being her mother and all. And being one of the best and most dangerous non-meta fighters in the world (I think only a bare few, like Cass and Jason, have ever actually beaten her).


That chair moove doesnt count

but yeah Cass should join the teen titans so she can rebel against her family since that what the titans are all about

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm meh on most of them except Kyle (why is he a Titan again) and Donna.


Was it that Dick was kicked out of the Titans so he could get head-shot?

----------


## Godlike13

> They tried that in the New 52. Shiva debuted in the Nightwing book for her first appearance and it was kind of a disaster. She had a horrible design and everything about it was just very bad. It was also the story that showed Dick as Robin for the first time in the New 52 with his awful New 52 Robin design, lol.


Ya, no thank you. Honestly I find Shiva to be a bore personally.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ya, no thank you. Honestly I find Shiva to be a bore personally.


I think Shiva is too full of her own crap.

----------


## Pohzee

I'm usually not a fan of characters whose defining trait is "the best at x."

----------


## byrd156

Lady Vic, Deathstroke and Raptor need to make a comeback. These villains all have cool looks, traits and connections to Dick. There's a nice foundation there.

----------


## oasis1313

> Lady Vic, Deathstroke and Raptor need to make a comeback. These villains all have cool looks, traits and connections to Dick. There's a nice foundation there.


I'd like some new villains.

----------


## byrd156

> I'd like some new villains.


Raptor literally is a new villain.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

> Raptor literally is a new villain.


Depends on how you look at it. 2 years old or 100 writers ago!

----------


## byrd156

> Depends on how you look at it. 2 years old or 100 writers ago!


2 years is 10 seconds in comics time. There have been waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too many new characters in DC in the past few years. It feels like instead of actually building them up they make new ones and pretend everyone has well defined character traits.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lady Vic, Deathstroke and Raptor need to make a comeback. These villains all have cool looks, traits and connections to Dick. There's a nice foundation there.


Vic is dead, deathstroke either fights children or  somehow screws with the big 3 dick is imbetween



> I think Shiva is too full of her own crap.


Shiva is a stat builder, she not evil with any desire of her own, she not  crazy
fighting her is just an obstacle to give a chracter a feat

----------


## byrd156

> Vic is dead, deathstroke either fights children or  somehow screws with the big 3 dick is imbetween
> 
> 
> Shiva is a stat builder, she not evil with any desire of her own, she not  crazy
> fighting her is just an obstacle to give a chracter a feat


Like I said last time the fact that she's dead was brought up, who cares? Just bring her back and don't even mention it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Vic is dead, deathstroke either fights children or  somehow screws with the big 3 dick is imbetween
> 
> 
> Shiva is a stat builder, she not evil with any desire of her own, she not  crazy
> fighting her is just an obstacle to give a chracter a feat


Shiva is just held out as this ultimate fighter thang and she doesn't seem able to back it up.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Shiva is a stat builder, she not evil with any desire of her own, she not  crazy
> fighting her is just an obstacle to give a chracter a feat


Well said. I think this sums up why I'm not interested with her as a character. Her only use that could be interesting would be as a Cass Cain villain.




> Like I said last time the fact that she's dead was brought up, who cares? Just bring her back and don't even mention it.


This is well said also. Vic really ought to be a Nightwing rogue. Her dying in another book ought to be like scarecrow dying outside of Batman.




> I'd like some new villains.


We've gotten practically nothing but new villains since 2012.

----------


## byrd156

> Well said. I think this sums up why I'm not interested with her as a character. Her only use that could be interesting would be as a Cass Cain villain.
> 
> 
> 
> This is well said also. Vic really ought to be a Nightwing rogue. Her dying in another book ought to be like scarecrow dying outside of Batman.
> 
> 
> 
> We've gotten practically nothing but new villains since 2012.


I'm tired of new villains, new heroes and new things. All the old things still make no damn sense and character consistency is a luxury only a few of the top heroes possess. I feel like I don't know any of DC's characters anymore, hell I feel like I don't even know my favorite characters.

Donna is more aggressive and prone to alcoholism. Since when?
Garth is a lumbering meathead.
Roy is apparently Jason's best friend and has killed for him.
Dick is Ric and also hates Tech? 
Their personalities have been all over the place for pretty much each arc I've read them in.

Wally was the only one that felt consistent.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm tired of new villains, new heroes and new things. All the old things still make no damn sense and character consistency is a luxury only a few of the top heroes possess. I feel like I don't know any of DC's characters anymore, hell I feel like I don't even know my favorite characters.
> 
> Donna is more aggressive and prone to alcoholism. Since when?
> Garth is a lumbering meathead.
> Roy is apparently Jason's best friend and has killed for him.
> Dick is Ric and also hates Tech? 
> Their personalities have been all over the place for pretty much each arc I've read them in.
> 
> Wally was the only one that felt consistent.


To be fair, it seems like Roy in the New52 had quite the falling out with others, and only got his memory of being a Titan back during Titans Hunt. Since then, I don't think he's killed anyone. But he did save Jason.

----------


## byrd156

> To be fair, it seems like Roy in the New52 had quite the falling out with others, and only got his memory of being a Titan back during Titans Hunt. Since then, I don't think he's killed anyone. But he did save Jason.


Cool a falling out with them is stupid.

----------


## Godlike13

Roy should have stayed with Jason.

----------


## byrd156

> Roy should have stayed with Jason.


Jason should still be 6 feet under.

----------


## Badou

> Roy should have stayed with Jason.


This. Roy and Dick's relationship is just shit. Just since the New 52 you've had the whole Starifre mess and then Dick gets written like crap when Roy is the one writers want to push like Abnett did. Just stick him with Jason and never let Roy and Dick have to interact again, lol. 

The only Roy I've liked has been on the YJ show surprisingly.

----------


## byrd156

> This. Roy and Dick's relationship is just shit. Just since the New 52 you've had the whole Starifre mess and then Dick gets written like crap when Roy is the one writers want to push like Abnett did. Just stick him with Jason and never let Roy and Dick have to interact again, lol. 
> 
> The only Roy I've liked has been on the YJ show surprisingly.


Dick and Roy's friendship is on the same level as Dick and Wally. It only seems like it's shit because it has been pretty non-existent since 2011.

Nightwing: Old Friends, New Enemies will always be a classic for them.

----------


## Ascended

> This. Roy and Dick's relationship is just shit. Just since the New 52 you've had the whole Starifre mess and then Dick gets written like crap when Roy is the one writers want to push like Abnett did. *Just stick him with Jason and never let Roy and Dick have to interact again,* lol. 
> 
> The only Roy I've liked has been on the YJ show surprisingly.


I agree with the bolded, but only because I want to see all the NTT move the f*ck on with their lives.  :Smile:  

I like the dynamic between Dick and Roy, they seem to have a odd "frenemies" vibe, where they respect and like each other but also drive each other nuts. It's fun. But I dont need to see them be Titans anymore and was quite content with Roy as an Outlaw. 

Let the NTT get together for drinks at a bar, or dinner at Wally's place, or whatever. But let them move on, professionally, please!

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick and Roy's friendship is on the same level as Dick and Wally. It only seems like it's shit because it has been pretty non-existent since 2011.
> 
> Nightwing: Old Friends, New Enemies will always be a classic for them.


The only other one that is on the same level a his friendship with Wally is his friendship with Donna. And that friendship should probably be even stronger.

----------


## byrd156

> The only other one that is on the same level a his friendship with Wally is his friendship with Donna. And that friendship should probably be even stronger.


I love Dick and Donna but Roy and Dick probably have the most amount of appearances together.

----------


## byrd156

> I agree with the bolded, but only because I want to see all the NTT move the f*ck on with their lives.  
> 
> I like the dynamic between Dick and Roy, they seem to have a odd "frenemies" vibe, where they respect and like each other but also drive each other nuts. It's fun. But I dont need to see them be Titans anymore and was quite content with Roy as an Outlaw. 
> 
> Let the NTT get together for drinks at a bar, or dinner at Wally's place, or whatever. But let them move on, professionally, please!


Roy with the Outlaws only works if you ignore literally everything about his character.

----------


## Godlike13

> I love Dick and Donna but Roy and Dick probably have the most amount of appearances together.


No way, NTTs. The only thing Dick and Roy have going for them is Winick’s Outsiders. And he quite frankly pulled thier friendship out of his butt.

----------


## byrd156

> No way, NTT. The only thing Dick and Roy have going for them is Winick’s Outsiders. And he quite frankly pulled thier friendship out of his butt.


There are a lot more books than that one run...

----------


## Ascended

> Roy with the Outlaws only works if you ignore literally everything about his character.


The only Outlaw who acted even slightly "right" was Jason, but conceptually I'm more than fine with Roy working with someone like Jason. Roy was a member of Checkmate, and when DC isn't forcing him into a "color blind Green Arrow" role he lives up to his name of Arsenal; the guy's not above lethal force when he has to use it (though I largely see that mostly in Outsiders). He fit well enough in the "anti-hero" role of Outlaws. 

I mean, if I had my way Jason would be a Punisher-style villain again, but since DC is determined to make him be a straight up hero.......

----------


## byrd156

> The only Outlaw who acted even slightly "right" was Jason, but conceptually I'm more than fine with Roy working with someone like Jason. Roy was a member of Checkmate, and when DC isn't forcing him into a "color blind Green Arrow" role he lives up to his name of Arsenal; the guy's not above lethal force when he has to use it (though I largely see that mostly in Outsiders). He fit well enough in the "anti-hero" role of Outlaws. 
> 
> I mean, if I had my way Jason would be a Punisher-style villain again, but since DC is determined to make him be a straight up hero.......


I agree on the Punisher villain is the right direction for Jason but I disagree on Roy. Just because he was a hero turned spy (before Dick) doesn't mean he should be killing. Winnick's Outsiders book is a black mark for every character used in it. Roy should still be Red Arrow as far as I'm concerned. Going back to Arsenal is character regression to the millionth degree. He was a single father who grew up as a superhero and overcame his addiction. Most of that uniqueness as a character was thrown away in favor of a "bad boy" with a chip on his shoulder who could play yes man to Jason. Roy's been around as long as GA for christ's sake.

----------


## Godlike13

> There are a lot more books than that one run...


Not with these characters appearing together there’s not. Dick and Roy with no Donna have primarily Winick’s Outsiders, Dick and Donna with no Roy has NTTs and it’s various forms, and after that the appearances are mostly with them all. NTT is a far bigger and more influential run of books then anything Dick and Roy have exclusively shared.
 Donna was there when Dick became a man, Dick walked Donna down the isle. There’s no competition when comes to who was closer to him. Donna was his true BFF. Even over Wally. Which is just another reason Abnett Titans was utter shit, having Donna not even consider him a friend. The Titans tv show at least gets it.

----------


## byrd156

> Not with these characters appearing together there’s not. Dick and Roy with no Donna have Winick Outsders, Dick and Donna with no Roy has NTTs and it’s various forms, and after that the appearances are mostly with them all.


I literally mentioned a book on the last page that is just Roy and Dick.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

> I literally mentioned a book on the last page that is just Roy and Dick.


A handful of issues, still doesn’t overtake NTT and it’s various series. Donna is probably his most consistent teammate. They were even on the JL together for a bit, lol.

----------


## Drako

> Not with these characters appearing together there’s not. Dick and Roy with no Donna have primarily Winick’s Outsiders, Dick and Donna with no Roy has NTTs and it’s various forms, and after that the appearances are mostly with them all. NTT is a far bigger and more influential run of books then anything Dick and Roy have exclusively shared.
>  Donna was there when Dick became a man, Dick walked Donna down the isle. There’s no competition when comes to who was closer to him. Donna was his true BFF. Even over Wally. Which is just another reason Abnett Titans was utter shit, having Donna not even consider him a friend. The Titans tv show at least gets it.


Titans by Devin Grayson had all of them.
Titans by Judd Winnick had all of them.

----------


## byrd156

> A handful of issues, still doesn’t overtake NTT and it’s various series. Donna is probably his most consistent teammate. They were even on the JL together for a bit, lol.


I really liked their run on JL but it wasn't very long. I really want to see all the numbers of appearances together.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No way, NTTs. The only thing Dick and Roy have going for them is Winick’s Outsiders. And he quite frankly pulled thier friendship out of his butt.


they have been freinds since they were 13

----------


## byrd156

> they have been freinds since they were 13


They all have been friends since childhood. Dick, Roy, and Wally I think knew each other before the Titans.

----------


## Godlike13

Roy wasn’t even a true original Teen Titan  :Cool:

----------


## byrd156

> Roy wasn’t even a true original Teen Titan


Neither was Donna. It was Robin, KF, and Aqualad in Brave & the Bold #54 that started the sidekick team.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Sadly Garth got less and less to do. Roy effectively took his place in the early days. I was just rereading a lot of those Silver Age books and in the letters section the number one requested member was Speedy.

----------


## Godlike13

That was just 3 dudes hanging out, they weren’t the "Teen Titans" till Donna showed up  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## byrd156

> That was just 3 dudes hanging out, they weren’t the "Teen Titans" till Donna showed up


Then why is it considered the original origin of the team?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Otherwise we can go by Teen Titans YO which has Roy with them at the start.

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing has no chill





https://twitter.com/javierfdezart

----------


## nightbird

I really miss Tim Seeley's run. It was actually a good time for Dick and Nightwing, even if management (and fans too) at the end ruined a lot of stuff about that run.

----------


## nightbird

[img]https://a.***********/a20/1903/fd/dd31acfa0218.jpg[/img]

Nightwing by Phil Jiminez

https://twitter.com/Philjimeneznyc/s...88659364196353

----------


## nhienphan2808

I dont think its fair to say Winick Pulled Dick and Roys friendship out of his ass and being with Jason was better for Roy. No matter how you think whether their dynamic was buddy close or not, the titans are very important to both, just like as casual as Roy and Donna is, their connection was always as titans first and foremost. Roy was devastated when the SA TT disbanded, and even then he always respected Dick despite his issues and Dick him despite disagreeing with Roys choice.Old Friends New Enemy was the first time they bonded as something more personal, Dick with Batman and Roy with his child, but it was stronger than anything Roy could have had with Jason. Dick trusted him with leading the titans in his stead. And just like in YJ, Roy was there to help when Dick lost his BFF in outsiders. Funny I think the way Dick yelled at him then an irresponsible Addict sometimes is just like the way us fans yelled at Hobo Ric now. They are there to trust and pull each other out from the ass.

I seem to be the minority because I see not as strong a connection between comic Dick and Wally as between Dick and Roy. In communication, in trust and in how they can relate to each other. While Dick and Donnas bond only got stronger when grown, Dick and Wally I feel like, still loves each other but they have become so different in worldwiew.

----------


## Badou

When Wally got bumped up to the JL he and Dick didn't interact as much anymore. So that is why there aren't a ton of more recent stories with the two of them, but the two of them are still considered best friends I would say even though I would agree that Donna the person Dick is closest to, even if the New 52 and Abnett destroyed that. 

I just think Roy is a piece of shit and he can go off with Jason for all I care to be honest. Just keep him away from Dick. I'm just sick of the two of them basically bickering or fighting whenever they interact in comics now, usually to Dick's detriment too given Winick's Outsiders, Abnett's Titans, briefly in Lobdell's Outlaws, and other series. It is just over and over again. Sure, I don't think Roy is written well with Jason as his character horribly devolves when he is with Jason despite Lobdell insisting that Jason is Roy's best friend, but I don't care about comic Roy enough to care really. Even in the Heroes in Crisis profile pages it listed Jason as Roy's best friend, and Dick probably won't ever acknowledge Roy dying or anything by the time Ric ends. Although odds are Dick won't acknowledge what happened to Wally either, lol.

Honestly, as it stands Dick no longer really feels that close to anyone other than Barbara these days. Maybe Bruce too on occasion but I don't think Dick has been shown to be that close with any of the Titans or even characters like Damian since Flashpoint. All those relationships feels very weak or watered down compared to what they used to be before the reboot.

----------


## Arsenal

To be fair, Roy has spent a lot more time with Jason (on panel) than he has with Dick since Flashpoint so it is easier to call the former his best friend. I’m not saying you have to agree with it, just that it makes sense given the current state of DC’s universe. 

The whole getting thier memories thing back does make it complicated but that consisted more of them telling than showing the titan’s new relationships.

----------


## Pohzee

https://twitter.com/ssnyder1835/stat...574086657?s=21

On one hand, I haven't read anything of his that I've liked in over half a decade. On the other hand, his Dick in Black Mirror was really, really good. It couldn't be worse than anything we've had over the past year and a half.

Not that it would ever actually happen.

----------


## Rac7d*

> When Wally got bumped up to the JL he and Dick didn't interact as much anymore. So that is why there aren't a ton of more recent stories with the two of them, but the two of them are still considered best friends I would say even though I would agree that Donna the person Dick is closest to, even if the New 52 and Abnett destroyed that. 
> 
> I just think Roy is a piece of shit and he can go off with Jason for all I care to be honest. Just keep him away from Dick. I'm just sick of the two of them basically bickering or fighting whenever they interact in comics now, usually to Dick's detriment too given Winick's Outsiders, Abnett's Titans, briefly in Lobdell's Outlaws, and other series. It is just over and over again. Sure, I don't think Roy is written well with Jason as his character horribly devolves when he is with Jason despite Lobdell insisting that Jason is Roy's best friend, but I don't care about comic Roy enough to care really. Even in the Heroes in Crisis profile pages it listed Jason as Roy's best friend, and Dick probably won't ever acknowledge Roy dying or anything by the time Ric ends. Although odds are Dick won't acknowledge what happened to Wally either, lol.
> 
> Honestly, as it stands Dick no longer really feels that close to anyone other than Barbara these days. Maybe Bruce too on occasion but I don't think Dick has been shown to be that close with any of the Titans or even characters like Damian since Flashpoint. All those relationships feels very weak or watered down compared to what they used to be before the reboot.


He didnt get shot in the head that long ago dick and Damian are still close
He just cant rmemeber him right now. Stop writing off theirnrelatiosnhip

----------


## dropkickjake

> https://twitter.com/ssnyder1835/stat...574086657?s=21
> 
> On one hand, I haven't read anything of his that I've liked in over half a decade. On the other hand, his Dick in Black Mirror was really, really good. It couldn't be worse than anything we've had over the past year and a half.
> 
> Not that it would ever actually happen.


Snyder on Nightwing would be a dream. His stories tend more towards horror than Dick is really built for, which would be the one downside. However, he is a big name creator. Big enough to have the clout that editorial would let him do what he wants. He also pulls great artists. Nightwing's appearances in his Batman run were normally well done. Everyone seems to remember Bruce punching him, but no one recalls the conversation at the end of the arc: "I didn't save you from some dark fate. You saved me from *my* dark fate."

----------


## Ascended

> https://twitter.com/ssnyder1835/stat...574086657?s=21


Snyder is hit or miss for me but I'd happily take him on Nightwing, especially if he leans into some of the bigger concepts and sci-fi he's using in JL and doesn't just re-tread the tired ground of Nightwing doing street level stuff (though I'd settle for street level if it was quality!). He's done well with Dick in the past, he's got the clout to do what he wants without DC screwing with his plans.

Even at his worst, Snyder is a million times better than what we've been getting and I think Nightwing is a character that Snyder actually, genuinely likes, which goes a long way a lot of the time, especially for IP's that DC itself doesn't care about (or in Dick's case, wants to actively sabotage). 

Yeah, screw it, sign me up! 

I'm also pleased to see how much support Nightwing got on that feed; lots of wingnuts out there desperate for a good series. 

Pull your collective heads out of your asses DC, and make it happen!

----------


## Badou

> https://twitter.com/ssnyder1835/stat...574086657?s=21
> 
> On one hand, I haven't read anything of his that I've liked in over half a decade. On the other hand, his Dick in Black Mirror was really, really good. It couldn't be worse than anything we've had over the past year and a half.
> 
> Not that it would ever actually happen.


Would be shocked if that ever happened. Him writing Nightwing would feel like him going backwards now, but who knows. 




> He didn’t get shot in the head that long ago dick and Damian are still close
> He just can’t rmemeber him right now. Stop writing off theirnrelatiosnhip


I don't think Damian and Dick's relationship is what it was before the reboot. I guess on occasion it feels like that like when Seeley writes it, but I think they now just boil down their relationship to Dick being "the older brother" when before it was a lot deeper under Morrison. He was a mentor, father figure, and older brother all mixed together. It was very layered. Now he is just an older brother that plays video games with Damian or something. Like when Damian died Dick was sad and reflected on not being able to play a video game with Damian as his big emotional connection to the character at his death despite having so many more things to reflect on. 

But I get that their dynamic can't be what they were before as Bruce had to overwrite a lot of the dynamics Dick and Damian had when he returned and became Batman. So it is impossible to have Dick and Damian's relationship reach the levels or layers it had before.

----------


## Slim Shady

:Big Grin:

----------


## Coatl

> I don't think Damian and Dick's relationship is what it was before the reboot. I guess on occasion it feels like that like when Seeley writes it, but I think they now just boil down their relationship to Dick being "the older brother" when before it was a lot deeper under Morrison. He was a mentor, father figure, and older brother all mixed together. It was very layered. Now he is just an older brother that plays video games with Damian or something.


I have been thinking in a very similar manner, I think the reboot was very detrimental for Dick and ruined a lot of his interactions with other characters who were crucial in his life, but one of the things that I will miss more will be his relation with Damian. It was special, more than a "cool older brother" he was like a father, he was actually IMO a better father than Batman because he show Damian something that Bruce never would be able to.

He teach him to slow down, be calmer, more compassionate, enjoy life and laugh. Before Dick I was unable to stand Damian but Dick make him more human and less and angry little killer with superiority complex and he did it with patient and understanding.

----------


## oasis1313

I miss Dick Grayson a lot--for decades, I'd been coming to the comics shop when Dick's books came out, but the cupboard is bare now.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I’m all for Snyder writing Dick. He writes Dick better than Bruce. His Batman series have been a problem since the start and that’s because it’s not Dickbats.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I’m all for Snyder writing Dick. He writes Dick better than Bruce. His Batman series have been a problem since the start and that’s because it’s not Dickbats.


CoO particularly would have been MUCH better with Dick as Batman.

----------


## dropkickjake

So the desert we're in has forced me to find water in other sources, namely exploring DCUniverse's comics catalog. Reread a much of Dixon's Nightwing and enjoyed it more than I remember. I'm also about 6 issues into Winnick's Outsiders, and I'm enjoying it so far. Dick is a little more angry in it, but I haven't found him out of character yet. What are y'all's thoughts on this run?

----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/BX62511444?lang=en

----------


## CPSparkles

I do hope DC puts Synder on Nightwing. He's talented and wants to write him.

----------


## Godlike13

> So the desert we're in has forced me to find water in other sources, namely exploring DCUniverse's comics catalog. Reread a much of Dixon's Nightwing and enjoyed it more than I remember. I'm also about 6 issues into Winnick's Outsiders, and I'm enjoying it so far. Dick is a little more angry in it, but I haven't found him out of character yet. What are y'all's thoughts on this run?


Not a Winick fan, his take on Dick was not my cup of tea and what he did with Huntress especially bugged me in Outsiders. Though the overall idea of the book wasn't bad.

----------


## oasis1313

> I do hope DC puts Synder on Nightwing. He's talented and wants to write him.


If Mark Waid is "too big" to write Nightwing, wouldn't Snyder be also?  I'd like to see it, but it looks like Didio is too busy poisoning Dick's book into oblivion to allow it.

----------


## Slim Shady

> *So the desert we're in has forced me to find water in other sources*


It's like we all feel the same way. I'm in the middle of re-reading Morrison's Batman and Robin. And I'm catching up on Red Hood as a kind of fill-in (it's not bad either). We're all just riding this thing out.

----------


## oasis1313

I'm knee-deep in my pile of "80-Page Giants" I bought off the "Hey Kids!  Comics!" racks back a few eras ago at the outrageous price of 25 cents each.  Red Hood is excellent (IMHO); Lobdell has been allowed to nurture the character from the start and his liking for Jason really shows.

----------


## Slim Shady

Yeah you can tell Lobdell is really into his Red Hood. Nightwing needs somebody like that. It felt like that with Seeley a little bit. That's one reason I wouldn't be opposed to Snyder, he would be like that if he got to write Nightwing. But I don't see it happening right now. Maybe at some point and time later on.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Not a Winick fan, his take on Dick was not my cup of tea and what he did with Huntress especially bugged me in Outsiders. Though the overall idea of the book wasn't bad.



Dick is definitely the least quippy I've read of him in a long time. A little more Batman than I'm used to, but it lines up with what little I've read from NTT.





> It's like we all feel the same way. I'm in the middle of re-reading Morrison's Batman and Robin. And I'm catching up on Red Hood as a kind of fill-in (it's not bad either). We're all just riding this thing out.


I'm really thankful that DCUniverse added so many comics lately. Its really making the money I spend on it totally worth it.

----------


## nightbird

Well, if you as fans think that some writers too big to write for Nightwing, then no wonder, that DC thinks so too.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Well, if you as fans think that some writers “too big” to write for Nightwing, then no wonder, that DC thinks so too.


You’re missing the context here. A few years back Mark Waid wanted to write Nightwing, but wasn’t allowed with speculation being that he was “too big” to write Nightwing in the eyes of Didio.

----------


## Jackalope89

> You’re missing the context here. A few years back Mark Waid wanted to write Nightwing, but wasn’t allowed with speculation being that he was “too big” to write Nightwing in the eyes of Didio.


And the sad thing, Dick is right up there with the Trinity in terms of history, lore, etc. So, technically, he is a big name.

----------


## oasis1313

> You’re missing the context here. A few years back Mark Waid wanted to write Nightwing, but wasn’t allowed with speculation being that he was “too big” to write Nightwing in the eyes of Didio.


Agree with this.  Everyone is sad and discouraged right now so we’re all commiserating in our misery.  Sure, Mark Waid was “too big” to write Nightwing but he wasn’t Big Enough to get his own way.  If someone like a Scott Snyder had some great story ideas and INSISTED on it—Didio would give it to him to keep him happy since he’s a Name.  He might have to agree to write a a Black Condor series, too (for example) if that was Didio’s Pet Character at the moment but Darlin’ Dan will keep the big talent in the tent.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> CoO particularly would have been MUCH better with Dick as Batman.


You can see hints of owl stuff from the last pre-flashpoint Batman and Gates/Streets of Gotham in Dickbats’ tenure. It was a plan for Dick but reboot and he had to change it to fit Bruce. Way to take from Dick and ruin Snyder’s career. Black Mirror was phenomenal for a debut.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Snyder wouldn't be my first choice for Nightwing, but I'd take it over the crap we've been getting recently.

----------


## Ascended

> And the sad thing, Dick is right up there with the Trinity in terms of history, lore, etc. So, technically, he is a big name.


Man, I find Dick's place within the hierarchy of "icon" so intriguing. 

"Robin," as a brand, is one of only five comic IP's that I think genuinely warrant the "icon" label. It's Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Robin (because everyone knows "Batman & Robin.") And in larger media adaptations the Robin we see is almost always Dick.

As Nightwing, Dick doesn't have that level of recognition. But Nightwing is still one of the more successful and stable IP's at DC, has a number of larger media showings (DCAU, YJ, Arkham games, etc), and sells better than a lot of other titles that have "big" names on the cover. So how "iconic" is Dick? If you take the average between the two roles, Dick Grayson is more iconic than Nightwing but less so than Robin.....and that's just a fun, weird thing to consider.  :Smile:  

Yet management seem to completely miss this. You look at things like that twitter feed from Snyder; tons of people begging him to write Dick, and barely anyone asked after Wonder Woman; a huge name IP still basking somewhat in the glow of a successful movie and the one true legit female icon in comics.....and people still want one of DC's biggest writers handling Nightwing. Maybe people just figure Dick needs love more than Diana at this point, but given Diana's history I struggle to imagine a fan allowing any opportunity for a big name creator on her book to slip past.

----------


## oasis1313

> Man, I find Dick's place within the hierarchy of "icon" so intriguing. 
> 
> "Robin," as a brand, is one of only five comic IP's that I think genuinely warrant the "icon" label. It's Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Robin (because everyone knows "Batman & Robin.") And in larger media adaptations the Robin we see is almost always Dick.
> 
> As Nightwing, Dick doesn't have that level of recognition. But Nightwing is still one of the more successful and stable IP's at DC, has a number of larger media showings (DCAU, YJ, Arkham games, etc), and sells better than a lot of other titles that have "big" names on the cover. So how "iconic" is Dick? If you take the average between the two roles, Dick Grayson is more iconic than Nightwing but less so than Robin.....and that's just a fun, weird thing to consider.  
> 
> Yet management seem to completely miss this. You look at things like that twitter feed from Snyder; tons of people begging him to write Dick, and barely anyone asked after Wonder Woman; a huge name IP still basking somewhat in the glow of a successful movie and the one true legit female icon in comics.....and people still want one of DC's biggest writers handling Nightwing. Maybe people just figure Dick needs love more than Diana at this point, but given Diana's history I struggle to imagine a fan allowing any opportunity for a big name creator on her book to slip past.


Dick needs the TLC a whole HELL of a lot more than Wonder Woman.  Even during those periods when she didn't sell books, she HAD to remain in active publication to maintain her copyright.  is Snyder being sent over to write Wonder Woman?  When Nightwing is being actively and openly sabotaged by his own Publisher, the situation feels very bleak.

----------


## Ascended

> Dick needs the TLC a whole HELL of a lot more than Wonder Woman.


He certainly does, but the fact that so many people give a damn about that proves the point. If Dick weren't popular, no one would care that his book is a sh*tfest and they'd want a big name writer on the big name, more popular title. Who cares if some D-list book needs a good writer when you can put that writer on a bigger, more popular book? That twitter feed shows that there's a fanbase that gives a damn. That's something you invest in and nurture, not grind into the dust.

----------


## Slim Shady

I just realized thanks to the WW forum that last year Superman had his 80th anniversary, Batman is having his this year, and Dick Grayson will have his next year. When you can say only Superman and Batman came before you, that should equal big time status. He deserves it. He definitely deserves more than this current soap opera amnesia story stitched together with fill-in creative teams.

----------


## Arsenal

Sending Dick on a space epic / race to return home was the way to go. Was a waste of an opportunity to really do something different with Dick and take him out of his comfort zone

----------


## nightbird

> Youre missing the context here. A few years back Mark Waid wanted to write Nightwing, but wasnt allowed with speculation being that he was too big to write Nightwing in the eyes of Didio.


Im not missing anything. Im talking here about limitations that sometimes fans itself put on Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing brand.

----------


## oasis1313

> He certainly does, but the fact that so many people give a damn about that proves the point. If Dick weren't popular, no one would care that his book is a sh*tfest and they'd want a big name writer on the big name, more popular title. Who cares if some D-list book needs a good writer when you can put that writer on a bigger, more popular book? That twitter feed shows that there's a fanbase that gives a damn. That's something you invest in and nurture, not grind into the dust.


It makes you wonder what a Nightwing book could sell if it had the slightest bit of encouragement and wasn't being sabotaged by the Publisher.

----------


## nightbird

> I just realized thanks to the WW forum that last year Superman had his 80th anniversary, Batman is having his this year, and Dick Grayson will have his next year. When you can say only Superman and Batman came before you, that should equal big time status. He deserves it. He definitely deserves more than this current soap opera amnesia story stitched together with fill-in creative teams.


Watch them doing nothing meaningful to celebrate his anniversary. The character that actually helped to shape their universe and turned from boy to man over all those years under their logo now gets the least amount of respect compared to even lesser and younger heroes.

----------


## Frontier

> Youre missing the context here. A few years back Mark Waid wanted to write Nightwing, but wasnt allowed with speculation being that he was too big to write Nightwing in the eyes of Didio.


At the risk of inviting the "discount Daredevil" complaints, I wonder how Waid's approach to Nightwing would compare to his _Daredevil_ run with Chris Samnee. 

How much did Dick appear in Waid's _Flash_ run? I know he was at Wally's wedding to Linda.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d24/1903/c8/8d171d85753d.jpg[/IMG]

http://klayr-de-gall.tumblr.com/post...o-the-greatest

[IMG]https://a.***********/a43/1903/40/890ee22fc3a9.jpg[/IMG]

https://nebeauxla.tumblr.com/post/18...tych-that-they

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c37/1903/83/7c2024ceebd3.jpg[/IMG]

http://ooisora-amcm.tumblr.com/post/...380036/nagging

[IMG]https://c.***********/c06/1903/77/4be0285dd824.png[/IMG]

http://ooisora-amcm.tumblr.com/post/...happy-new-year

----------


## Godlike13

> Watch them doing nothing meaningful to celebrate his anniversary. The character that actually helped to shape their universe and turned from boy to man over all those years under their logo now gets the least amount of respect compared to even lesser and younger heroes.


Im sure theyll come up with something for Harper and Cass like his 75th.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> I’m sure they’ll come up with something for Harper and Cass like his 75th.


Nah, they don’t need Harper and Cass to push an idea that it’s anniversary of all Robins, not just Dick Grayson’s.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, the issue is that DC looks at it more as Robin's 80th anniversary and not really Dick Grayson's 80th anniversary. So if/when they do anything for it the anniversary will be diffused between the other Robins, or even other sidekicks like they did for the 75th lol. It all goes back to the idea that Robin is the iconic name and not really Dick Grayson and Dick leaving the Robin name in the end hurt his character long term. Short term it is a nice story about Dick "growing up" and becoming a new hero, but his character never really got back to the same level he was as Robin and people in power, like a Didio, still view the character negatively for it too and used it as a reason to undermine him. 

As for DC not wanting to put "top tier" creators on Nightwing it is something that DC has very much done and that is just fans responding to DC's actions. DC tends to use the Nightwing book to test out young talent. That is what we have seen over and over again, especially since the New 52. It is unfortunately looked at as a stepping stone book and I think once a property gets that kind of label it is tough to shake. Maybe a Snyder coming on could change the view of it, but I would just be surprised if it ever happened.

----------


## WonderNight

I guess nothing will change for nightwing as long as they view him as a Robin and supergirl instead of a batman and superman. Nightwing has to become a head of his own corner that adds to the overall dcu like green lantern or wonder woman in order for DC to start taking him seriously.

This batman's number one helper is not going to cut it any more. Hell the batfamily is to big and bloated for him to standout in that role now. I mean there are TWO Robin's right now batman and Gotham has enough helpers.

 let nightwing go out in the world and be his own man and build his own legacy so he can finally stand aside by side with the trinity like his meet too.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nah, they dont need Harper and Cass to push an idea that its anniversary of all Robins, not just Dick Graysons.


They'll probably vomit up a new Mary Sue for the occasion.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Im not missing anything. Im talking here about limitations that sometimes fans itself put on Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing brand.


Youre missing or misunderstanding something. These aren't limitations fans are putting on the character. Their limitations editorial has put on the character that the fans are lamenting.

----------


## oasis1313

> Youre missing or misunderstanding something. These aren't limitations fans are putting on the character. Their limitations editorial has put on the character that the fans are lamenting.


The fans just want what is BEST for Dick Grayson.  They want to see him soar, and I think they'd go along with whatever puts him in the pantheon.  That he is being sabotaged by Didio is heartbreaking.  Didio is essentially telling Nightwing fans that they (and their money) doesn't matter up against his fanboy attitudes and they can all go to Hell.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Not a Winick fan, his take on Dick was not my cup of tea and what he did with Huntress especially bugged me in Outsiders. Though the overall idea of the book wasn't bad.


Unless Huntress comes in again later, he barely used her at all. I just finished issue 11.  I coulda used more of her pissing him off with palpable sexual tension.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I'm so tired of looking at my pull list and only seeing 1 book. I need a new Titans with Dick or Richard Grayson. Whatever of those 2 names they wanna go for. I need NW back.

----------


## Godlike13

> Unless Huntress comes in again later, he barely used her at all. I just finished issue 11.  I coulda used more of her pissing him off with palpable sexual tension.


It wasn’t consistent with any Nightwing/Huntress interaction that came before or after, and then as she leave we get "did you bang her? Of course I tots banged her". Hated it.

----------


## dropkickjake

> It wasn’t consistent with any Nightwing/Huntress interaction that came before or after, and then as she leave we get "did you bang her? Of course I tots banged her". Hated it.


It's been a minute since i read the huntress/nightwing mini and her appearances in the Nightwing solo, but didn't they (a) sleep together and (b) not trust each other? Dick not trusting her because she is too brutal seems pretty in character.

Roy was VERY bro-douchey in that conversation though. Wasn't a fan of that either.

----------


## Miles To Go

Doomsday Clock#9 spoilers

*spoilers:*
Dick appears in the issue, accompaning Barbera and other heroes on a mission into space, he's in his Nightwing costume
*end of spoilers*

----------


## TheCape

> It's been a minute since i read the huntress/nightwing mini and her appearances in the Nightwing solo, but didn't they (a) sleep together and (b) not trust each other? Dick not trusting her because she is too brutal seems pretty in character.
> 
> Roy was VERY bro-douchey in that conversation though. Wasn't a fan of that either.


Yeah, he was pretty pissed with himself during their team up in Dixon's run, for doing that and he admitted that he couldn't trust her. Agreed about Roy there thougth.

----------


## Godlike13

They genuinely liked each other in the mini, it wasn’t till Cataclysm that there became friction and even then he’s bringing her flowers.

----------


## Arsenal

> Doomsday Clock#9 spoilers
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Dick appears in the issue, accompaning Barbera and other heroes on a mission into space, he's in his Nightwing costume
> *end of spoilers*


and most importantly *spoilers:*
 he has hair 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Badou

Doomsday Clock is set a year into the future, right? So by then all the Ric stuff would be long gone. I've really soured on Doomsday Clock in general so I have no expectations for anything in it mattering, especially to Dick's character.

Though I wonder what they are flying in and why Barbara is flying it.

----------


## Schumiac

Speaking of being iconic and big... Did anyone read this book on him? https://www.amazon.com/Dick-Grayson-.../dp/0786497882

----------


## nhienphan2808

Devin Grayson polute that book with her BS so I wouldn’t touch it though I wanted to. I read some excerpts and there was that discussion about how Dick co-created Batman and is half the reason the others could be robin. Now he’s fodder even to them. It’s sad.

----------


## Ascended

> Speaking of being iconic and big... Did anyone read this book on him? https://www.amazon.com/Dick-Grayson-.../dp/0786497882


Oohh, I didnt know such a thing existed! 

I'd be curious to check it out.....but that very unofficial looking cover makes me want to flip through it at the local book store before buying.

However, if it did look legit I'd buy it for no other reason than to help prove that Dick Grayson has a robust and healthy fanbase that is willing to fork over their cash for quality Dick Grayson products. Hint hint, Didio!

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> and most importantly *spoilers:*
>  he has hair 
> *end of spoilers*


This was the star attraction for this book lol

----------


## Badou

So he appeared in one other panel in Doomsday Clock just standing behind Batgirl outside that panel we already saw him in. Although I don't get why they went to Mars in the first place. What is Dick supposed to do going there other than be fodder?

----------


## WonderNight

> So he appeared in one other panel in Doomsday Clock just standing behind Batgirl outside that panel we already saw him in. Although I don't get why they went to Mars in the first place. What is Dick supposed to do going there other than be fodder?


I dont even believe doomsday clock is steal canon, the story was written long before ric grayson so this means nothing for dick.

----------


## Arsenal

> So he appeared in one other panel in Doomsday Clock just standing behind Batgirl outside that panel we already saw him in. Although I don't get why they went to Mars in the first place. What is Dick supposed to do going there other than be fodder?


Maybe they’d hope the enemy would see Wing’s buns of steel and be distracted by it?

----------


## Schumiac

> Devin Grayson polute that book with her BS so I wouldnt touch it though I wanted to. I read some excerpts and there was that discussion about how Dick co-created Batman and is half the reason the others could be robin. Now hes fodder even to them. Its sad.





> Oohh, I didnt know such a thing existed! 
> 
> I'd be curious to check it out.....but that very unofficial looking cover makes me want to flip through it at the local book store before buying.
> 
> However, if it did look legit I'd buy it for no other reason than to help prove that Dick Grayson has a robust and healthy fanbase that is willing to fork over their cash for quality Dick Grayson products. Hint hint, Didio!


I will get it, one way or another, but as I don't live in USA need to decide how much I am willing to pay for it. When it comes to books, I am most comfortable with a hard copy -only in extreme cases would opt out of it-, and with shipping the book would cost me $40... If the book isn't that big a deal though, may just get the kindle version for almost 1/4 that...

The fact that I would have to put up with Devin Grayson nonsense does make me reconsider the hard copy option. but if she isn't being featured that much....

----------


## Drako

> So he appeared in one other panel in Doomsday Clock just standing behind Batgirl outside that panel we already saw him in. Although I don't get why they went to Mars in the first place. What is Dick supposed to do going there other than be fodder?


Most of the people who were there did nothing. It's just eye candy for the fans of this characters.

----------


## Miles To Go

> I dont even believe doomsday clock is steal canon, the story was written long before ric grayson so this means nothing for dick.



It _is_ canon. Sanctuary and the Batmen of Metal have been referenced in it.

It's been going through rewrites and delays to specifically align with what DC are doing. Since it's whole motiff is "hope" that means throwing in little things to assure readers whatever dark direction is going on in the books won't last for some heroes.

----------


## Lazurus33

> this was the star attraction for this book lol


spoilers

1.jpg2.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

It's Batgirl's old costume.

----------


## Badou

> Maybe they’d hope the enemy would see Wing’s buns of steel and be distracted by it?


Clearly that plan was not thought out as Dick was facing the wrong direction for that plan to take effect, lol.




> Most of the people who were there did nothing. It's just eye candy for the fans of this characters.


Just really strange they would ALL go and leave Earth undefended. I get the heavy hitters and GLs going but I don't know what the Batman clan is supposed to do. Though I guess they went there to be "killed" in order to leave just the Trinity as the only heroes probably.

----------


## Arsenal

> Clearly that plan was not thought out as Dick was facing the wrong direction for that plan to take effect, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Just really strange they would ALL go and leave Earth undefended. I get the heavy hitters and GLs going but I don't know what the Batman clan is supposed to do. Though I guess they went there to be "killed" in order to leave just the Trinity as the only heroes probably.


They made a tactical error assuming the enemy was wearing clothes when they engaged it. 

The bats have built their crime fighting careers beating people with powers, not that unreasonable to think they’ll work their voodoo bat magic this time too. and I don’t remember seeing any of the younger heroes there so I assume most of them are still on earth.

----------


## oasis1313

> Clearly that plan was not thought out as Dick was facing the wrong direction for that plan to take effect, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Just really strange they would ALL go and leave Earth undefended. I get the heavy hitters and GLs going but I don't know what the Batman clan is supposed to do. Though I guess they went there to be "killed" in order to leave just the Trinity as the only heroes probably.


DC could cut back on a LOT of books that way.

----------


## Dzetoun

> They made a tactical error assuming the enemy was wearing clothes when they engaged it. 
> 
> The bats have built their crime fighting careers beating people with powers, not that unreasonable to think theyll work their voodoo bat magic this time too. and I dont remember seeing any of the younger heroes there so I assume most of them are still on earth.


They do seem to have brought Bat Cow (look between Babs and Jason). Although, the colors are wrong. Bat Cow is usually depicted as an Ayrshire and that would appear to be a Holstein.

----------


## oasis1313

> They do seem to have brought Bat Cow (look between Babs and Jason). Although, the colors are wrong. Bat Cow is usually depicted as an Ayrshire and that would appear to be a Holstein.


Is that on the two pages Lazarus33 gave us?  It looked like it might be Real Dick and not not Alfonzy.  And they'd better NOT hurt Bat-Cow.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Maybe theyd hope the enemy would see Wings buns of steel and be distracted by it?


Oh he's got competition now, Dr. Manhattan is bringing it with his blue butt.

----------


## Arsenal

> Oh he's got competition now, Dr. Manhattan is bringing it with his blue butt.


If Dick just did a few more squats that whole battle coulda gone completely different.

----------


## Slim Shady

Totally agree  :Big Grin:  forget lantern rings and magic, should've been a battle of the buns.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh he's got competition now, Dr. Manhattan is bringing it with his blue butt.


Dr Manhattan doesn't wear underwear.

----------


## Vinsanity

> It's Batgirl's old costume.


Geez, I really don't miss that costume. The purple works so much better.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Dr Manhattan doesn't wear underwear.


Unfair advantage?

Johns trips me out. He sends basically every hero in DC to Mars on a save the planet type mission to fight someone that just took out Superman, and he finds a way to slip in a, cover your eyes he's naked, line. Even Joker slipped in a funny dig about it during a fight in an earlier issue.

----------


## oasis1313

> Unfair advantage?
> 
> Johns trips me out. He sends basically every hero in DC to Mars on a save the planet type mission to fight someone that just took out Superman, and he finds a way to slip in a, cover your eyes he's naked, line. Even Joker slipped in a funny dig about it during a fight in an earlier issue.


It must mean that Dr. Manhattan is VERY self-confident.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b12/1903/ef/cc3c40491f84.jpg[/IMG]
http://hesitant-vampire.tumblr.com/p...-that-superman

----------


## Schumiac

Awww... Bats being a good daddy and Dick being as adorable as ever...

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b12/1903/ef/cc3c40491f84.jpg[/IMG]
> http://hesitant-vampire.tumblr.com/p...-that-superman


This is a great little piece of fan-art.  It really sucks that Damian and Jon have been aged so that we miss their childhood years.

----------


## Schumiac

> This is a great little piece of fan-art.  It really sucks that Damian and Jon have been aged so that we miss their childhood years.


It really does...  The appeal of superhero "children" is that they are children and we get to see their childhood years. They make a fuss about the younger generations making the original heroes look older, and then go ahead and age them prematurely for no good reason. It is stupid... No one needs 10+ teenager/adolescent Superman or Batman family members running around. Let some of them remain as kids...

----------


## Jackalope89

> It really does...  The appeal of superhero "children" is that they are children and we get to see their childhood years. They make a fuss about the younger generations making the original heroes look older, and then go ahead and age them prematurely for no good reason. It is stupid... No one needs 10+ teenager/adolescent Superman or Batman family members running around. Let some of them remain as kids...


Exactly. Not since the original Titans (Jason, kind of), I believe, have we been able to see young kid heroes grow into their own heroes.

----------


## oasis1313

> It really does...  The appeal of superhero "children" is that they are children and we get to see their childhood years. They make a fuss about the younger generations making the original heroes look older, and then go ahead and age them prematurely for no good reason. It is stupid... No one needs 10+ teenager/adolescent Superman or Batman family members running around. Let some of them remain as kids...


It was a new direction for Batman, too.  Here he suddenly was with his nasty ex dumping a brat in his lap that he never even knew he had.  How many guys have abruptly found themselves in that situation?  And a real biological child, not a "ward" or whatever stupid gimmick.  Trying to be a dad instead of a "mentor" was taking it to a different level.  They should de-age Damian to little-kid status again and make Dick the dad.

----------


## WonderNight

> It was a new direction for Batman, too.  Here he suddenly was with his nasty ex dumping a brat in his lap that he never even knew he had.  How many guys have abruptly found themselves in that situation?  And a real biological child, not a "ward" or whatever stupid gimmick.  Trying to be a dad instead of a "mentor" was taking it to a different level.  They should de-age Damian to little-kid status again and make Dick the dad.


I always felt talia should've been dick's ra's but I guess it's to late.

----------


## oasis1313

> I always felt talia should've been dick's ra's but I guess it's to late.


Dick wouldn't put up with Talia's nonsense.  He had no patience with her during (I think) the Tomasi run.

----------


## Schumiac

> Dick wouldn't put up with Talia's nonsense.  He had no patience with her during (I think) the Tomasi run.


Dick is a much more patient person than Bruce in general (which is what makes him a better father too) but he sure doesn't put up with Talia's or Ra's nonsense and I love him all the more for that. I loved it when he flat-out rejected to take the sword Ra's offered as a reminder of their clash (and his victory over Ra's) as Ra's was kind of trying to replace the void Batman left as his adversary with him... And Dick will have none of that, thank you (I also loved he was all "gee, Ra's, no need for the "sending Ninja assasin hordes" dramatics, if you wanted a meeting, just ask for it)... And it is not like he doesn't like souveniers in general.

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> I always felt talia should've been dick's ra's but I guess it's to late.


You mean like in the criminally underrated and under appreciated Batman: the Brave and the Bold cartoon from Cartoon Network? Because yes, she and Dick should have been the pairing considering that in most continuities, including Pre-Flashpoint, they're only about two to three years apart in age and work fluidly together. Albeit with a great deal of sarcasm and snarky back and forth between each other since they've known each other since they were born undergrads. Heck, their spending a spring break together traveling the world is still canon.

Most of their conflict stems from that, and if they slipped up and ended up in a sexual type relationship (which would never happen on either side) Dick and Talia would be the ultimate power couple. They are both incredibly intelligent, loyal people who don't hesitate to lay down their lives for loved ones, they both will go undercover into dangerous situations if their loved ones ask/order them to, both have been raped rape by someone who wouldn't take no for an answer (people somehow miss that Bane brutally raped Talia multiple times, which is weird because it's borderline explicit on page, and she does have the personality change of a rape victim), both love Damian and have a tendency to put him before most other considerations unlike Bruce, both will save the hostages first, both are generally opposed to worldwide spy or rich white people organizations and cheerfully rip them apart one way or another, and both can rock any outfit and have questionable fashion sense. Clearly, they are the couple that should be together.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c30/1903/24/c2974e8d1bf3.jpg[/IMG]

https://brucewaynehomeforangrychildr...but-still-cute

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c30/1903/24/c2974e8d1bf3.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> https://brucewaynehomeforangrychildr...but-still-cute


"Don't laugh.  This is my secret weapon."

----------


## Jackalope89

> You mean like in the criminally underrated and under appreciated Batman: the Brave and the Bold cartoon from Cartoon Network? Because yes, she and Dick should have been the pairing considering that in most continuities, including Pre-Flashpoint, they're only about two to three years apart in age and work fluidly together. Albeit with a great deal of sarcasm and snarky back and forth between each other since they've known each other since they were born undergrads. Heck, their spending a spring break together traveling the world is still canon.
> 
> Most of their conflict stems from that, and if they slipped up and ended up in a sexual type relationship (which would never happen on either side) Dick and Talia would be the ultimate power couple. They are both incredibly intelligent, loyal people who don't hesitate to lay down their lives for loved ones, they both will go undercover into dangerous situations if their loved ones ask/order them to, both have been raped rape by someone who wouldn't take no for an answer (people somehow miss that Bane brutally raped Talia multiple times, which is weird because it's borderline explicit on page, and she does have the personality change of a rape victim), both love Damian and have a tendency to put him before most other considerations unlike Bruce, both will save the hostages first, both are generally opposed to worldwide spy or rich white people organizations and cheerfully rip them apart one way or another, and both can rock any outfit and have questionable fashion sense. Clearly, they are the couple that should be together.


One is the leader and founder of a group of heroes that began in their teens (and pre-Flashpoint, helped upcoming heroes and metahumans out).

The other is the leader of a criminal organization filled with metahuman assassins.

The first one has grown as a person since he was a teen hero, often being the bridge between grounded heroes, the the world at large.
The latter, while supportive of those she cares for, is highly manipulative and quite cruel at times.


Not really the basis of a healthy relationship, barring a massive heel-turn by one of them.

----------


## Arsenal

Any romantic relationship between Talia and Dick would just be super weird at this point.

----------


## nhienphan2808

You said you haven’t read most of Dick’s appearance before 2004 and now I believe you. Their conflicts are also this. Dick was always more supportive of Selina as Bruces love Interest other than Talia. 
They are very alike in ways you pointed out and that’s all the more reason Dick will never tolerate her. The way he thinks about her is exactly how Tim thinks of Damian in the earlier meetings : “look at his upringing. His biology even...” while Dick changed what Tim thoughtby raising that child, Bruce never did anything like that for Dick about a grown woman.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I do think people tends to underestimate Dicks moral code and how strong he believes in a thing it seems.. He is as stubborn as Bruce  and would manipulate you into thinking like him even.

----------


## nightbird

I actually think, that “dangerous woman” as love interest suits Dick more, than good girls, especially later (with good girls they trend to make him look like he is inferior to them), but not Talia.

----------


## nhienphan2808

And I think so too, but she has to be dangerous in the sense that is opposite of him and compliment him. Talia is too much like him but for different beliefs, she wouldn’t be a good one. He seems not as hateful towards her personality itself ( I know what Bruce liked about her now) but more like, he hates the idea of her, that she’s from evils root and wants Bruce in a way that threatens Batman the hero’s status quo. Like I said, it’s like how Tim hates Damian.

----------


## oasis1313

> And I think so too, but she has to be dangerous in the sense that is opposite of him and compliment him. Talia is too much like him but for different beliefs, she wouldn’t be a good one. He seems not as hateful towards her personality itself ( I know what Bruce liked about her now) but more like, he hates the idea of her, that she’s from evils root and wants Bruce in a way that threatens Batman the hero’s status quo. Like I said, it’s like how Tim hates Damian.


Nah, Tim hates Damian because Damian is the Real Thing and Tim is just a wannabee Wayne.  I wouldn't say Dick hates Talia; she's not worth that much emotional energy.  He's more like, "What are you up to THIS time?  (SIGH)  What a mess.  (SIGH)  I don't have time for your crap.  (SIGH)."

----------


## Claude

https://mobile.twitter.com/NickDerin...36619712540675

Looks like Nightwing is making an appearance in the Bendisverse in an upcoming issue of the Walmart book. I know the others aren't generally "in continuity" titles, but from what I gather from interviews it seems the appearances of Green Lantern and Jinny Hex are intended to play into the wider Bendis story.

----------


## Pohzee

> https://mobile.twitter.com/NickDerin...36619712540675
> 
> Looks like Nightwing is making an appearance in the Bendisverse in an upcoming issue of the Walmart book. I know the others aren't generally "in continuity" titles, but from what I gather from interviews it seems the appearances of Green Lantern and Jinny Hex are intended to play into the wider Bendis story.


I actually take Bendis's run to be canon given that it provides the intro for Jinny Hex who appears in Young Justice.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Any romantic relationship between Talia and Dick would just be super weird at this point.


she already had sex with jason

----------


## Arsenal

> she already had sex with jason


It was weird back then (thank god that got retconned) but it’d be even worse with Dick.

----------


## Jackalope89

> she already had sex with jason


The less said about that (thankfully) retconned interaction, the better. Her being somewhat of a mother figure to him in New52 is far better.

----------


## dietrich

> And I think so too, but she has to be dangerous in the sense that is opposite of him and compliment him. Talia is too much like him but for different beliefs, she wouldnÂt be a good one. He seems not as hateful towards her personality itself ( I know what Bruce liked about her now) but more like, he hates the idea of her, that sheÂs from evils root and wants Bruce in a way that threatens Batman the heroÂs status quo. Like I said, itÂs like how Tim hates Damian.


Evil roots. I don't think Dick is that narrow minded. case in point Damian. Selina comes from evil just like Talia [by choice not due to cult indoctrination] and threatens batman's hero's status quo [it's like a major theme in the current Batman run].

Dick believes in redemption so evil roots schmevil roots. Though after Inc yeah he likely hates Talia's guts.
I think writers take liberties that are contradicted by the overall narrative when they write Dick being okay with 1 type of law-breaker who is a threat to batman's hero status quo but getting on his high horse with another.

These heroes have principals.
and no Dick shouldn't have anything to do with Talia. dc has enough females baddies that haven't boned bats. He can have his pick from those.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Dick is usually supportive or just has nothing to say about Bruce/Selina. While he doesn’t trust her either, he is like “whatever” when Bruce is head over heels for her. I think bc she just doesn’t care about origins and fathers and she is a orphan like him with a independent streak, that’s not threatening Batman’s status quo. Talia however, is just like Dick in how rooted and how strong her anti hero beliefs and upbringing, so that’s “ruining Batmans life” , trying to escape it or not. 
As for Damian, the boy is 10 and to a 26, 27 year old Softer and more open minded Dick, can be changed and taught.

I personally like that Younger Dick is a somewhat oppressive, and frankly not nice Dick. It shows he changed and there are many things readers, just like his younger brothers, don’t know about him.

----------


## oasis1313

> It was weird back then (thank god that got retconned) but it’d be even worse with Dick.


The thought of Talia lurking around brain-damanged youngsters is really creepy.  Hopefullly, Dick would brush her off even with half his head shot off.

----------


## Schumiac

Selina isn't a killer. She is a thief... Her type of "badness" is quite a bit different than someone who has no qualms about killing and is part of a league of assassins who do go around murdering people in masses. And Damian was a small kid who didn't know any better and once shown another way was ready and willing to change his ways. Talia is a grown up who does and should know better. So yeah, a big difference between mother and son too. It is a good thing Damian got to have a better influence in his life earlier on. Don't know if he would be so set in his ways if he spent his entire life with Talia and Ra's also... 

Dick is a rather tolerable person and he does believe in redemption but he is also rather protective of his loved ones and the history with Talia would make him rather weary of her and makes sense that he wouldn't trust her at all, with himself, with Damian or with Bruce. 

And the idea of Dick and Talia, as is Dick and Selina or rather any of the women Bruce has been paired with is just icky to me...

In general I don't want to see Dick with a "baddie" tbh. For one thing, it seems to be more Bruce's thing, no need to make it a Bat-family trend. And for another I think Dick is too moral for that. Dick wants long, lasting relationships, if he was to get involved with a baddie it would mean he would constantly try to change that person and that is not the kind of relationship I want to read about or see him in. I would like him to be with a strong woman, who may have a "naughty" aspect to her I suppose but that is different than being a baddie/villain... Btw, writers, him being with a strong woman does not mean he needs to be written childish or dumber or controlling (so she needs to keep telling him off to assert herself etc).

While at it, I simply hate the idea of him with Harley Quinn, redeemed or not. Just... no.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick + Talia is no Romeo + Juliet situation.  He's always got pretty girls around; he doesn't need all the baggage Talia totes around with her, and he probably finds her icky, too.  Talia has had several chances to rebuild her life but she always reverts back to Daddy's Girl.  A "strong woman" for Dick wouldn't be someone who'd treat him like an idiot; he needs a "strong woman" in terms of super power so she doesn't become a damsel in distress like most of his girlfriends seem to.

----------


## Badou

The Dick and Talia discussion is one of the weirdest ones in a while, lol. 

If you want to give Dick an actual villain love interest I feel there are probably much better choices out there that don't involve taking one from Bruce.

----------


## oasis1313

> The Dick and Talia discussion is one of the weirdest ones in a while, lol. 
> 
> If you want to give Dick an actual villain love interest I feel there are probably much better choices out there that don't involve taking one from Bruce.


Heck yeah on that one.  I'm still liking the idea of Roxy Rocket as a bad-girl romantic interest.

----------


## Godlike13

This is weird because the comment that started this was that Talia should have been Dick’s Ra’s, not that they should  bang each other. It’s not like when someone brings up Ra’s people start talking about how weird it would be for Bruce to bang him. So shame on you all for going sexual with it  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Non sexually it’s actually not a terrible idea. Dick is the one who, again non sexuallly, seduced her son away from her. Though at this point Talia herself has usurped Ra’s as a Bat villain. IMO anyway. Hell she could be a JL villain. That’s the kind a threat she should be.

----------


## WonderNight

> This is weird because the comment that started this was that Talia should have been Dick’s Ra’s, not that they should  bang each other. It’s not like when someone brings up Ra’s people start talking about how weird it would be for Bruce to bang him. So shame on you all for going sexual with it 
> 
> Non sexually it’s actually not a terrible idea. Dick is the one who, again non sexuallly, seduced her son away from her. Though at this point Talia herself has usurped Ra’s as a Bat villain. IMO anyway. Hell she could be a JL villain. That’s the kind a threat she should be.


yeah there seems to be a bunch of dirty little beavers in here :Cool: . But dick vs taila could still work with dick and spyral vs taila and leviathan on a global scale.

God I miss Grayson :Frown: .

----------


## K7P5V

> Heck yeah on that one.  I'm still liking the idea of Roxy Rocket as a bad-girl romantic interest.


Totally agree. I would love to see a Roxy/Dick pairing. Why has it taken so long? Is it because there's some sort of legal dispute or red tape involved?

----------


## oasis1313

> Totally agree. I would love to see a Roxy/Dick pairing. Why has it taken so long? Is it because there's some sort of legal dispute or red tape involved?


I don't think anyone at DC has bothered to think of it.

----------


## K7P5V

> I don't think anyone at DC has bothered to think of it.


That's sad to hear. But you certainly came up with an excellent idea. The possibilities are endless.

----------


## Ascended

> Heck yeah on that one.  I'm still liking the idea of Roxy Rocket as a bad-girl romantic interest.


Ah, you beat me to it!  :Big Grin: 

Wait, didnt I introduce you to the character? Or was that someone else?

----------


## oasis1313

> Ah, you beat me to it! 
> 
> Wait, didnt I introduce you to the character? Or was that someone else?


Yeah, that you pointed her out; I didn't really know about her because I was years behind in the cartoon.

----------


## CPSparkles

The Nightwing [love that shadow]



https://twitter.com/airair_ii

----------


## Darkcrusade25

https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...ninstagram.com

Upcoming Walmart Batman story by Bendis will feature Dick Grayson as Nightwing!

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...ninstagram.com
> 
> Upcoming Walmart Batman story by Bendis will feature Dick Grayson as Nightwing!


better then nothing

----------


## oasis1313

The artwork looks sucky.

----------


## dietrich

I hope the Giant also has solo Nightwing stories I mean dude's not a sidekick.

----------


## Ascended

Is it weird that I'm looking at Bendis, of all people, and hoping I'm looking at Dick's salvation? 

Like, I really want Bendis to be a huge Nightwing fan and decide he's going to take the character over. Didio wouldn't say no to that and I'd rather have a Nightwing loving Bendis write the character than someone Didio can ride roughshod over them and drive Dick into the dust.

----------


## Badou

I really don't think Bendis is a good writer anymore. After his X-Men run and how bad his Superman run is turning into I'd be very nervous for him to take over the character. Like my expectations would be rock bottom with him. 

Also I thought those Wallmart books were cancelled?

----------


## Pohzee

> I really don't think Bendis is a good writer anymore. After his X-Men run and how bad his Superman run is turning into I'd be very nervous for him to take over the character. Like my expectations would be rock bottom with him. 
> 
> Also I thought those Wallmart books were cancelled?


We're at rock bottom right now, my man.

And DC is continuing the Giants, but they will be available at more locations, but they will also be collecting King and Bendis's runs in trades.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Is it weird that I'm looking at Bendis, of all people, and hoping I'm looking at Dick's salvation? 
> 
> Like, I really want Bendis to be a huge Nightwing fan and decide he's going to take the character over. Didio wouldn't say no to that and I'd rather have a Nightwing loving Bendis write the character than someone Didio can ride roughshod over them and drive Dick into the dust.


I like his Action and Superman. Now thats the only stuff Ive ever read by him and I see a lot of opinions that hes awful so Idk. Just me personally, from what Im seeing now in Nightwing, Id take him. But again, Im judging Bendis from a very small sample of his work.

----------


## oasis1313

> I like his Action and Superman. Now that’s the only stuff I’ve ever read by him and I see a lot of opinions that he’s awful so Idk. Just me personally, from what I’m seeing now in Nightwing, I’d take him. But again, I’m judging Bendis from a very small sample of his work.


I haven't forgiven Bendis for aging Jon Kent up and robbing us of our ringside seats for his childhood; I feel it likely caused Damian to be aged up, too.  I wouldn't want to see him to take over Nightwing; he's into Tim and there is risk that he would use the opportunity to further sabotage Dick (and explore depths beyond even what we're getting lately--at this point, I'm sure Didio could find something even worse than being a bald, homeless wino).

----------


## Godlike13

> We're at rock bottom right now, my man.
> 
> And DC is continuing the Giants, but they will be available at more locations, but they will also be collecting King and Bendis's runs in trades.


LoL, right.

----------


## Gurz

Bendis, save Nightwing ! Please dude !  :Big Grin:

----------


## Slim Shady

> I haven't forgiven Bendis for aging Jon Kent up and robbing us of our ringside seats for his childhood; I feel it likely caused Damian to be aged up, too.  I wouldn't want to see him to take over Nightwing; he's into Tim and there is risk that he would use the opportunity to further sabotage Dick (and explore depths beyond even what we're getting lately--at this point, I'm sure Didio could find something even worse than being a bald, homeless wino).


I agree Nightwing is the last person that needs more yanking around at the moment.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> I really don't think Bendis is a good writer anymore. After his X-Men run and how bad his Superman run is turning into I'd be very nervous for him to take over the character. Like my expectations would be rock bottom with him. 
> 
> Also I thought those Wallmart books were cancelled?


His YJ run is going very good so I think he just has hits and misses. But then again I did like his X-Men run so maybe different tastes.

----------


## oasis1313

I question if Bendis could write Dick Grayson appropriately since he's a Tim Drake fan.  Chuck Dixon was able to do both, but things may have become more polarized since then.

----------


## Badou

> We're at rock bottom right now, my man.
> 
> And DC is continuing the Giants, but they will be available at more locations, but they will also be collecting King and Bendis's runs in trades.


I dunno, it might be like moving from one hell to another, lol.

At least the art will be good with Bendis I suppose...




> His YJ run is going very good so I think he just has hits and misses. But then again I did like his X-Men run so maybe different tastes.


His X-Men run I think is the 2nd worse X-Men run of all time. I thought it was a complete disaster and its effects messed up the X-Men line for years afterwards. They are still dealing with them and only recently have they been able to try and move on from it some I think. It ended up making me drop the X-Men which were my first comics to be honest. 

His YJ is fine so far, but it is so early and he is doing so much fanservice with the issues it is tough to tell how the story really is going to be.

----------


## oasis1313

> I dunno, it might be like moving from one hell to another, lol.
> 
> At least the art will be good with Bendis I suppose...
> 
> 
> 
> His X-Men run I think is the 2nd worse X-Men run of all time. I thought it was a complete disaster and its effects messed up the X-Men line for years afterwards. They are still dealing with them and only recently have they been able to try and move on from it some I think. It ended up making me drop the X-Men which were my first comics to be honest. 
> 
> His YJ is fine so far, but it is so early and he is doing so much fanservice with the issues it is tough to tell how the story really is going to be.


That sample from the Walmart stuff has abominable artwork.  I'd think DC would assign Superstar Bendis the best of everything.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> That sample from the Walmart stuff has abominable artwork.  I'd think DC would assign Superstar Bendis the best of everything.


Not really. Nick Derington has great art. His art is clean and fun.

Example: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt92sclBw5a/

----------


## oasis1313

> Not really. Nick Derington has great art. His art is clean and fun.
> 
> Example: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt92sclBw5a/


This is a better example--thanks!

----------


## Ascended

> I like his Action and Superman. Now thats the only stuff Ive ever read by him and I see a lot of opinions that hes awful so Idk. Just me personally, from what Im seeing now in Nightwing, Id take him. But again, Im judging Bendis from a very small sample of his work.


I've sampled most of his mainstream Marvel work, from Daredevil to Jessica Jones to Ultimate Spidey (following Miles to the 616) to X-Men and Avengers. Only thing I didn't really even try was his Guardians of the Galaxy; I read the two issues that dealt with Rich Rider's (Nova's) return (I love Nova!), and hated every panel.

His negative reputation is inflated.....but not by a ton. His last years at Marvel were.....pretty horrid, honestly. It seems like he had too free a hand and no editor would tell him "no" or try to curb his worst impulses, which lead to some really bad stories and some even worse retcons. But when he was fresh at Marvel and wasn't such a big name that he could do whatever he wanted, unhindered? He was one of the best around. Seriously, check out his Daredevil; it's amazing.

I've loved his Superman stuff, for the most part and I'm really enjoying YJ so far. And it seems like DC was the fresh scenery he needed to find his groove again. And since he lost a lot of his sales power while at Marvel, perhaps DC's editors are more willing to control him (though he's been allowed to make some big changes with Superman so he's clearly got influence). 

In any case, *if* Bendis is a fan of Nightwing, he'd be an improvement over what we have now. He's (maybe) got enough clout that Didio might not be able to run him over and Bendis is best when writing street level heroes like Dick, but still can manage some higher concept stuff when he puts his mind to it. I dont even care if Bendis likes Tim or Jason or whoever more than Dick; that doesnt mean he cant write Nightwing too.

Sh*t, even at his worst Bendis would be better than what we're getting now. And at best? At best Bendis could bring in a level of excitement and quality we haven't seen since Grayson and protect Nightwing from DC management.

----------


## oasis1313

> I've sampled most of his mainstream Marvel work, from Daredevil to Jessica Jones to Ultimate Spidey (following Miles to the 616) to X-Men and Avengers. Only thing I didn't really even try was his Guardians of the Galaxy; I read the two issues that dealt with Rich Rider's (Nova's) return (I love Nova!), and hated every panel.
> 
> His negative reputation is inflated.....but not by a ton. His last years at Marvel were.....pretty horrid, honestly. It seems like he had too free a hand and no editor would tell him "no" or try to curb his worst impulses, which lead to some really bad stories and some even worse retcons. But when he was fresh at Marvel and wasn't such a big name that he could do whatever he wanted, unhindered? He was one of the best around. Seriously, check out his Daredevil; it's amazing.
> 
> I've loved his Superman stuff, for the most part and I'm really enjoying YJ so far. And it seems like DC was the fresh scenery he needed to find his groove again. And since he lost a lot of his sales power while at Marvel, perhaps DC's editors are more willing to control him (though he's been allowed to make some big changes with Superman so he's clearly got influence). 
> 
> In any case, *if* Bendis is a fan of Nightwing, he'd be an improvement over what we have now. He's (maybe) got enough clout that Didio might not be able to run him over and Bendis is best when writing street level heroes like Dick, but still can manage some higher concept stuff when he puts his mind to it. I dont even care if Bendis likes Tim or Jason or whoever more than Dick; that doesnt mean he cant write Nightwing too.
> 
> Sh*t, even at his worst Bendis would be better than what we're getting now. And at best? At best Bendis could bring in a level of excitement and quality we haven't seen since Grayson and protect Nightwing from DC management.


You make some excellent points.  Of course he could write a Nightwing book if he was willing to give the character a break--but my concern is that he would denigrate Dick, Jason, or Damian in order to make Tim look superior.  He seems to be a Tim fanboy like Didio.

----------


## Robanker

> I've sampled most of his mainstream Marvel work, from Daredevil to Jessica Jones to Ultimate Spidey (following Miles to the 616) to X-Men and Avengers. Only thing I didn't really even try was his Guardians of the Galaxy; I read the two issues that dealt with Rich Rider's (Nova's) return (I love Nova!), and hated every panel.
> 
> His negative reputation is inflated.....but not by a ton. His last years at Marvel were.....pretty horrid, honestly. It seems like he had too free a hand and no editor would tell him "no" or try to curb his worst impulses, which lead to some really bad stories and some even worse retcons. But when he was fresh at Marvel and wasn't such a big name that he could do whatever he wanted, unhindered? He was one of the best around. Seriously, check out his Daredevil; it's amazing.
> 
> I've loved his Superman stuff, for the most part and I'm really enjoying YJ so far. And it seems like DC was the fresh scenery he needed to find his groove again. And since he lost a lot of his sales power while at Marvel, perhaps DC's editors are more willing to control him (though he's been allowed to make some big changes with Superman so he's clearly got influence). 
> 
> In any case, *if* Bendis is a fan of Nightwing, he'd be an improvement over what we have now. He's (maybe) got enough clout that Didio might not be able to run him over and Bendis is best when writing street level heroes like Dick, but still can manage some higher concept stuff when he puts his mind to it. I dont even care if Bendis likes Tim or Jason or whoever more than Dick; that doesnt mean he cant write Nightwing too.
> 
> Sh*t, even at his worst Bendis would be better than what we're getting now. And at best? At best Bendis could bring in a level of excitement and quality we haven't seen since Grayson and protect Nightwing from DC management.


I was thinking the same. He's on my short list for writers I'd like to see take a crack at Nightwing. His style also just seems a good match for Dick Grayson in general.

----------


## oasis1313

> I was thinking the same. He's on my short list for writers I'd like to see take a crack at Nightwing. His style also just seems a good match for Dick Grayson in general.


Sure, if Bendis liked the character, it's likely he could do well for him.  I'd like Ed Brubaker on.

----------


## CPSparkles

Dick and Bruce Hug it out



http://lesbidar.tumblr.com

Because he needs a hug right now from Family

----------


## CPSparkles

> I haven't forgiven Bendis for aging Jon Kent up and robbing us of our ringside seats for his childhood; I feel it likely caused Damian to be aged up, too.  I wouldn't want to see him to take over Nightwing; he's into Tim and there is risk that he would use the opportunity to further sabotage Dick (and explore depths beyond even what we're getting lately--at this point, I'm sure Didio could find something even worse than being a bald, homeless wino).


While Bendis has gone out his way to proclaim the best Robin i haven't seen evidence that he also doesn't like Nightwing. He is using him in the Giant.

It's possible for a writer to favour a particular character but still do right by others. I'm enjoying his Action & Superman comics. YJ is just on issue 3 and finally appears to getting interesting.

It'd be interesting to see what he can do with Dick yet somehow i also don't want him as a long term Nightwing writer.

Nightwing isn't any safer under Bendis. The only writers with the figures and following to have enough clout are King and Synder. I don't know this as fact just basing it on sales and PR alone. bendis has a great rep but his figures don't match his huge name.

----------


## Schumiac

Liking Tim as Robin doesnt mean disliking Dick or Nightwing... There are people.who think Tim was the best Robin but Nightwing/Dick is overall a bettrr character, for example... and a professional writer should be able to do decent in any title he/she is given and not give in to.their biases and sabotage the toon...

those who are not very professional do tend to write horribly in titles they are not really interested in though...


and with Nightwing we have the additional problem of Didio's hatred and Bat office's total disregard. They basically put Nightwing on ice right now till King's batman arch is over.... talk about lack of professionalism. it isnt an environment that encourages writers or brings out the best in them. they are basically told to stall and do nothing substantial with Dick  and his amnesia... so even though i think current writers could still have done a better job than this, the real blame isnt theirs. and not sure there is anything anyone can really do till King is done. slight improvement? yes. but no big changes like we all hope...

----------


## Ascended

> You make some excellent points.  Of course he could write a Nightwing book if he was willing to give the character a break--but *my concern is that he would denigrate Dick, Jason, or Damian in order to make Tim look superior.*  He seems to be a Tim fanboy like Didio.


I mean, its possible, sure. But I dont really recall Bendis doing that sort of thing. There are characters he just doesn't write well, like Dr. Doom, but off the top of my head I can't think of a time when he purposefully threw a character under the bus to prop up another. Especially when he was writing the character's solo. 

Maybe Bendis likes Tim more than Nightwing. I really dont know. But even if that's true that doesn't mean he'd sabotage Dick's title just to make Tim look good. He's not Didio.

----------


## Ascended

> Nightwing isn't any safer under Bendis. The only writers with the figures and following to have enough clout are King and Synder. I don't know this as fact just basing it on sales and PR alone. *bendis has a great rep but his figures don't match his huge name.*


Fortunately (well, unfortunately) DC doesnt seem to care about sales figures. At least when it comes to their personal biases. Otherwise, Nightwing wouldn't be in the trouble it is, since it's one of the company's most stable and reliable titles. And Bendis has shown that he's got pull with the company despite not selling like he used to. He's got like, a hundred different imprints going and has been able to make some big changes to Superman's world, including destroying Kandor, bringing Krypton's destruction into question, and sending Jon on a seven year space journey. And if we want to we could probably include the return of the "proper" YJ characters. We know Didio hates that entire generation, yet they're back in proper form because of Bendis.

----------


## Godlike13

Except Didio never hated that generation. That’s a false assumption people came up with after the fact, but when you actually look a things this will be the second time Didio has tried to launch an entire line around them.

----------


## TheCape

> Except Didio never hated that generation. That’s a false assumption people came up with after the fact, but when you actually look a things this will be the second time Didio has tried to launch around line around them.


Didio dislike (not hate) multiple sidekick generations, because of how authomatically aged the Satelite Era crew, he doesn't dislike the characthers thenselves, just what they represent, but they have a big enougth fanbase to keep around and try something with then and why he doesn't kill then, is the same with Dick or more specifically Nightwing. I'm pretty sure that if he could have his way, we pretty much would be with Dick as Robin, Wally as KF and none of the 90s or 00s sidekicks would still be around.

Althougth i think than this second chance is more Bendis having a lot of pull, he is big enougth to have creative liberties.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Except Didio never hated that generation. That’s a false assumption people came up with after the fact, but when you actually look a things this will be the second time Didio has tried to launch an entire line around them.


For a supposed Silver/Bronze only fanboy with biases, DiDio certainly is more merciful to the YJ generation even though the Titans (the Silver/Bronze age group) at one time were a far bigger deal.

----------


## Godlike13

> Didio dislike (not hate) multiple sidekick generations, because of how authomatically aged the Satelite Era crew, he doesn't dislike the characthers thenselves, just what they represent, but they have a big enougth fanbase to keep around and try something with then and why he doesn't kill then, is the same with Dick or more specifically Nightwing. I'm pretty sure that if he could have his way, we pretty much would be with Dick as Robin, Wally as KF and none of the 90s or 00s sidekicks would still be around.
> 
> Althougth i think than this second chance is more Bendis having a lot of pull, he is big enougth to have creative liberties.


Didio dislikes Dick and Wally’s generation, he came out and said these things about them. Fans of the other characters try to adopt what he has came out and said about them in a false attempt to blame him for the failings and missteps with them.

----------


## dietrich

> Fortunately (well, unfortunately) DC doesnt seem to care about sales figures. At least when it comes to their personal biases. Otherwise, Nightwing wouldn't be in the trouble it is, since it's one of the company's most stable and reliable titles. And Bendis has shown that he's got pull with the company despite not selling like he used to. He's got like, a hundred different imprints going and has been able to make some big changes to Superman's world, including destroying Kandor, bringing Krypton's destruction into question, and sending Jon on a seven year space journey. And if we want to we could probably include the return of the "proper" YJ characters. We know Didio hates that entire generation, yet they're back in proper form because of Bendis.


Sadly i believe that stability is part of what embolden's DC to use Nightwing as testing ground for upcoming writers. Gives them the confidence to pull lazy stuff like this Ric crap[stalling] which is still selling i might add

They know that he will sell regardless so they are careless with him [does that make sense?]

I get so confused with DC. They are a business. Are they just not ambitious? Why won't/don't they optimise their properties?

On Bendis I'm unsure.

I don't want Bendis on Nightwing because he's on a hundred different imprint's [though it doesn't appear to affect the quality of his title's that I'm reading

I'm confident that Dick is a character that has enough office support that Didio won't shelf or kill him but I won't say no to a creator who fights Dick Grayson's corner like Tomasi and Lobdell do for their respective Bat boys.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Sadly i believe that stability is part of what embolden's DC to use Nightwing as testing ground for upcoming writers. Gives them the confidence to pull lazy stuff like this Ric crap[stalling] which is still selling i might add
> 
> They know that he will sell regardless so they are careless with him [does that make sense?]
> 
> I get so confused with DC. They are a business. Are they just not ambitious? Why won't/don't they optimise their properties?
> 
> On Bendis I'm unsure.
> 
> I don't want Bendis on Nightwing because he's on a hundred different imprint's [though it doesn't appear to affect the quality of his title's that I'm reading
> ...


I think we had that with Seeley, wish he had stayed longer. He had it in the past with Dixon. He needs someone like that again.

----------


## Drako

The fact that no one bothered to post this here just show your level of enthusiasm for the book right now.
At least the variant cover is cool.

And good for us, our guy is struggling at the moment but we still have the biggest Appreciation thread around here.

NIGHTWING #61
written by DAN JURGENS
art by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
cover by KYLE HOTZ
variant cover by WARREN LOUW
Blüdhaven is burning! Ric Grayson and the Nightwings are helpless against the rampage of Burnback. Will they be able to pull themselves together as a team in order to prevent Blüdhaven from becoming ash? Confronted with their most dire threat yet, Ric and the Nightwings must find a way to come together if lives are to be saved.

https://www.newsarama.com/44329-dc-c...citations.html

----------


## byrd156

> The fact that no one bothered to post this here just show your level of enthusiasm for the book right now.
> At least the variant cover is cool.
> 
> And good for us, our guy is struggling at the moment but we still have the biggest Appreciation thread around here.
> 
> NIGHTWING #61
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
> cover by KYLE HOTZ
> ...


The variant covers have been great throughout this whole Ric fiasco. The only good thing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Badou

I wonder if you asked Tom King would be say he regrets shooting Nightwing in the head given the complete disaster his solo book turned into. The vast majority of writers never admit things like this that would make their work look bad, but you could remove the shooting of Nightwing in his Batman run and nothing would change at all. Such a minor part of his story ruined the Nightwing book for going on almost a year.

----------


## Frontier

> For a supposed Silver/Bronze only fanboy with biases, DiDio certainly is more merciful to the YJ generation even though the Titans (the Silver/Bronze age group) at one time were a far bigger deal.


I think it says less about Didio being merciful and more how much pull Bendis now has at DC.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think it says less about Didio being merciful and more how much pull Bendis now has at DC.


They were the Teen Titans in the New 52 when they definitely were not the iconic team. And even if they were in limbo, that's IMO better than the indignities done to Dicks generation 

He at the very least doesn't dislike them as much.

----------


## Schumiac

Wasn't it Didio who wanted Dick killed off in Infinite Crisis and Nightwing to be passed on to Jason? I would say, whatever his general feeling regarding Silver/Bronze age characters are, the man just personally hates Dick and wants to get rid of him. He just can't get other creators etc to back him up on this, which is why it hasnt happened. It isn't just about "age" stuff (because Jason doesn't make Bruce that much younger), it is dislike for the character.. So don't think he would ever want Dick as Robin either.




> I wonder if you asked Tom King would be say he regrets shooting Nightwing in the head given the complete disaster his solo book turned into. The vast majority of writers never admit things like this that would make their work look bad, but you could remove the shooting of Nightwing in his Batman run and nothing would change at all. Such a minor part of his story ruined the Nightwing book for going on almost a year.


It wasn't minor though... Dick being shot and unable to help Batman in any way is an important part of the "breaking the Batman" story in that it has sent him spiraling down (was the last drop) and he doesn't have the one person who is his greatest support all around to help him out. It has made him all the more vulnerable to Bane's games... I know King supposedly offered to have Dick fixed right up, but it wouldn't really work if he was "back in the game" immediately and able to help Bats. To me, that bit sounds like something something King says to lessen the fan backlash towards himself ("I shot him, yes, but i didn't mean it to be such a mess and last thing long... I am not the one to blame")... Makes sense that Nightwing would be kept away for the duration of that story. I just wish King would hurry up and get done though, as it is very frustrating.


Also, if Ric is going to go out "heroing" with the other Nightwings (ugh so hate writing that) someone at least give him a proper mask already... I get very irritated at the charcoal/spraypaint mask, it looks very undignified.

----------


## Frontier

> They were the Teen Titans in the New 52 when they definitely were not the iconic team. And even if they were in limbo, that's IMO better than the indignities done to Dicks generation 
> 
> He at the very least doesn't dislike them as much.


Yeah, but they were so badly mis-managed back then that I don't think it was much better.

----------


## Badou

> It wasn't minor though... Dick being shot and unable to help Batman in any way is an important part of the "breaking the Batman" story in that it has sent him spiraling down (was the last drop) and he doesn't have the one person who is his greatest support all arouund to help him out. I know King supposedly offered to have Dick fixed right up, but it wouldn't really work if he was "back in the game" immediately and able to help Bats. To me, that bit sounds like something something King says to lessen the fan backlash towards himself ("I shot him, yes, but i didn't mean it to be such a mess and last thing long... I am not the one to blame")... Makes sense that Nightwing would be kept away for the duration of that story. I just wish King would hurry up and get done though, as it is very frustrating.


No, it was minor. He shot him in the head at the end of #55 and had an issue or two where Bruce went and beat up KGBeast and then it has been a non issue. Hasn't even been mentioned sense. Trying to justify it as Bruce being so hurt and damaged because of it is completely false because the whole arc of "Bane breaking the Bat" has been built around Catwoman and their relationship. King has done fuck all with Dick and setting any of that up. Catwoman is the plot point that he has been constantly going back to and using and Dick getting shot is basically being ignored in the main Batman book. There has been no scenes or anything about Bruce seriously lamenting Dick's situation the way he did any other tragedy or him going to see Dick in the hospital. Nothing. Bruce is 10x more upset that Catwoman left him at the alter than Dick getting shot by how the story has gone. 

It was done for two reasons. One was for shock value to drum up attention and the other is King wanted to take Dick off the table so when King "kills" Bruce he isn't there to take up the Batman mantle in King's Knightfall knockoff. That is kind of it and why the Ric garbage is lasting so long. It wasn't the last straw in Bane's master plan (that is obviously Thomas Wayne) and you could completely erase the whole Dick part of the story and nothing really changes. It is why King even said he would undo it immediately with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with Dick getting shot (I wish they had done that instead) because King knows it is such a minor part of his story that it didn't really matter what happened afterwards because all he needed from it was just that panel of Dick getting shot in the head and the outcome or anything was irrelevant to him.

----------


## Ascended

> Sadly i believe that stability is part of what embolden's DC to use Nightwing as testing ground for upcoming writers. Gives them the confidence to pull lazy stuff like this Ric crap[stalling] which is still selling i might add
> 
> They know that he will sell regardless so they are careless with him [does that make sense?]
> 
> I get so confused with DC. They are a business. Are they just not ambitious? Why won't/don't they optimise their properties?


No, it makes sense. Nightwing is going to sell decently no matter what, so it makes for a risk-free testing ground. As a business, DC isn't going to care about what that does to Dick or his character; they're still making money from the book and they're able to groom strong talent for major gigs, which will make them *more* money. For them, it's win/win. 

As for why they don't invest in this brand.....I dont know. We dont have nearly enough data to see what DC sees. They might see a risk-free testing ground as more worthwhile over the long term. Personal bias definitely seems to have a role to play, considering the things Didio has said publicly, though I don't know if it's as much a barrier as we think it is. They might just not care; the book does respectably, and they've got a lot of other IP's that require work and attention, so why push for more from Dick when that energy can be poured into a title that won't sell without it? They might believe that as high as the sales floor is, the ceiling is low and the book won't do much better with more effort. Grayson was an excellent title but by the end it's sales weren't much higher than average, so if a great book is barely going to make more money, why not put that talent to use elsewhere? For the record I have my theories on why Grayson didn't sell better. But DC may not agree.

----------


## Schumiac

> No, it was minor. He shot him in the head at the end of #55 and had an issue or two where Bruce went and beat up KGBeast and then it has been a non issue. Hasn't even been mentioned sense. Trying to justify it as Bruce being so hurt and damaged because of it is completely false because the whole arc of "Bane breaking the Bat" has been built around Catwoman and their relationship. King has done fuck all with Dick and setting any of that up. Catwoman is the plot point that he has been constantly going back to and using and Dick getting shot is basically being ignored in the main Batman book. There has been no scenes or anything about Bruce seriously lamenting Dick's situation the way he did any other tragedy or him going to see Dick in the hospital. Nothing. Bruce is 10x more upset that Catwoman left him at the alter than Dick getting shot by how the story has gone. 
> 
> It was done for two reasons. One was for shock value to drum up attention and the other is King wanted to take Dick off the table so when King "kills" Bruce he isn't there to take up the Batman mantle in King's Knightfall knockoff. That is kind of it and why the Ric garbage is lasting so long. It wasn't the last straw in Bane's master plan (that is obviously Thomas Wayne) and you could completely erase the whole Dick part of the story and nothing really changes. It is why King even said he would undo it immediately with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with Dick getting shot (I wish they had done that instead) because King knows it is such a minor part of his story that it didn't really matter what happened afterwards because all he needed from it was just that panel of Dick getting shot in the head and the outcome or anything was irrelevant to him.



The idea was, Catwoman dealt a huge blow and Dick could help Bruce pick up the pieces (an entire issue was spent to show that), and then Bane made sure he couldn't by having him taken out too. So taking Dick out was about taking Bruce's support system out which is why IMO the psychological nonsense part of King's story wouldn't work if Dick is around and he is now having his breakdown... As Bruce is getting through the Nightmates stuff Dick is mentioned, like when facing Pyg or when having the "married to Catwoman and than she is assasinated" delusions. So it is also still there at the back of his mind. There is no denying Bruce's manpain is huge though and it seems like now he is starting to backtrack and noticing something was off with how Catwoman ended things with him or something. I half hope he starts to realize ALL of it was Bane's master plan, but honestly with King, hard to tell... There is also the fact that, after Dick got shot he went super-violent and raging without a thought, so Gordon doesn't really trust him anymore like before, and that may end up playing into the upcoming story...

Dick being taken out does mean he can't replace Batman, yes, but then if he wasn't taken out, he would already be at Gotham trying to help Batman stop Bane. That's the point. He can't be allowed to be there while it is happening, not as an ally doing actual fighting and not as emotional support. It is not like Dick would wait on the side, till Bane is completely done with Bruce and has destroyed him, and then show up in Gotham, take over the mantle, stop Bane first thing (where Bruce has failed spectacularly) and then go on being Gotham's hero as Bruce is off licking his wounds and mending... Such a story was never going to be written... The story is Bane is taking Bruce down meticulously by breaking his heart, his spirit, his mind and then finally will break him physically too and leave him all shattered. Can't have that with Dick right by his side.

----------


## oasis1313

June solicits.  Ric is still here, still wearing a soot mask.  I feel like Bane is trying to break me, too.

----------


## Schumiac

> June solicits.  Ric is still here, still wearing a soot mask.  I feel like Bane is trying to break me, too.


King is breaking us all... 

I do agree that he didn't give the aftermath of what would happen to Dick and his readers much thought. He knew he wanted Dick sidelined, he knew how he wanted to do it, he did it. And left the mess to be someone else's problem as he goes on his merry way with his own story.

----------


## OWL45

So Dick really is not going to be part of the Leviathan story? It’s really Unbelievable he is going to be left out.

----------


## Badou

> The idea was, Catwoman dealt a huge blow and Dick could help Bruce pick up the pieces (an entire issue was spent to show that), and then Bane made sure he couldn't by having him taken out too. So taking Dick out was about taking Bruce's support system out which is why IMO the psychological nonsense part of King's story wouldn't work if Dick is around and he is now having his breakdown... As Bruce is getting through the Nightmates stuff Dick is mentioned, like when facing Pyg or when having the "married to Catwoman and than she is assasinated" delusions. So it is also still there at the back of his mind. There is no denying Bruce's manpain is huge though and it seems like now he is starting to backtrack and noticing something was off with how Catwoman ended things with him or something. I half hope he starts to realize ALL of it was Bane's master plan, but honestly with King, hard to tell... There is also the fact that, after Dick got shot he went super-violent and raging without a thought, so Gordon doesn't really trust him anymore like before, and that may end up playing into the upcoming story...
> 
> Dick being taken out does mean he can't replace Batman, yes, but then if he wasn't taken out, he would already be at Gotham trying to help Batman stop Bane. That's the point. He can't be allowed to be there while it is happening, not as an ally doing actual fighting and not as emotional support. It is not like Dick would wait on the side, till Bane is completely done with Bruce and has destroyed him, and then show up in Gotham, take over the mantle, stop Bane first thing (where Bruce has failed spectacularly) and then go on being Gotham's hero as Bruce is off licking his wounds and mending... Such a story was never going to be written... The story is Bane is taking Bruce down meticulously by breaking his heart, his spirit, his mind and then finally will break him physically too and leave him all shattered. Can't have that with Dick right by his side.


I understand that was King's intention, but I don't think it works. This is where it falls apart. If Dick was playing a large role in King's Batman story similar to the role Catwoman is playing then it works better. It would be him building up to this huge turning point where Dick gets shot and it sets Bruce down on this spiral of destruction just like Bane wants, similar to the Catwoman wedding issue, but we didn't get that. Dick came in for one issue to crack some jokes and then gets shot in the head and him, his outcome, and situation are promptly pushed out of the way unlike a Catwoman, or even a Gotham Girl, whose situation King is constantly going back to and building on. Dick didn't get any of that. It was mostly a blip in this 100+ issue run that King is trying to justify it by being this hugely important factor in his Batman story, but he didn't write it in any way where it would feel like that. It just feels glossed over and ruined the Nightwing book in the process. 

Also you didn't need to shoot Dick in the head for any of this to happen. That is a big part I have an problem with. Dick was playing no role in King's Batman story. You could have just not used Dick or have Dick go do something else where he couldn't be there where you didn't fuck up the Nightwing book in the process. We just saw this happen with Snyder's Batman where Dick was on a mission in Spyral and couldn't be in Gotham when Bruce got his amnesia and a new Batman in Gordon stepped into the role. Gotham was in huge trouble but Dick didn't rush back to help and missed the whole situation. Instead of King shooting Dick in the head you could have just had the Nightwing team come up with its own story for why Dick couldn't be there instead of dealing with this mess King threw in their lap, but then King couldn't have had his shocking panel of Dick getting shot, which is all he wanted with Dick being taken off the table. 

King specifically stated that his original plan was to have Duke take over as Batman and that he didn't want to do the DickBats thing again because it has been done before. So that right there shows his intention for using Dick in his story. It wasn't as much to play this big role in King's 100 issue epic, but to be disposed of so he could write someone else in the role of Batman. There is probably also an ego thing involved in that King wanted HIS Batman story to be the defining set piece and wouldn't want a story from Nightwing's own book that would have served as a reason for Dick being unable to help to bleed into his Batman epic.

----------


## Badou

> So Dick really is not going to be part of the Leviathan story? It’s really Unbelievable he is going to be left out.


Of course not. Dick being involved in it would make too much sense given his time in Spyral and dealing with Talia and Leviathan back in Batman INC. Dick is only allowed to be in forgettable or frustrating Bludhaven stories or being the punchbag in Titans. Clearly this Ric story is just too important to stop for something like being used in a Leviathan Event for Superman...

Kidding aside I don't think Bendis is all that interested in Dick's character. Obviously he probably couldn't use the character because Dick is in forced isolation while Ric is going on until King's Batman story allows for it to end, but I don't get the feeling Bendis would have used Dick in his Superman event even if the Ric thing wasn't going on.

----------


## oasis1313

> Of course not. Dick being involved in it would make too much sense given his time in Spyral and dealing with Talia and Leviathan back in Batman INC. Dick is only allowed to be in forgettable or frustrating Bludhaven stories or being the punchbag in Titans. Clearly this Ric story is just too important to stop for something like being used in a Leviathan Event for Superman...
> 
> Kidding aside I don't think Bendis is all that interested in Dick's character. Obviously he probably couldn't use the character because Dick is in forced isolation while Ric is going on until King's Batman story allows for it to end, but I don't get the feeling Bendis would have used Dick in his Superman event even if the Ric thing wasn't going on.


If Dick had to be persona non grata, why not just send him off to space instead of Azrael?  Could have had some nice Dick-n-Kory tension to spice up the book.  In fact, Dick's "home team" with Amanda Waller was a wash-out.  Then 'Beest would be welcome to shoot Timmy Wimmy Dreck, the Precious One, and that would have REALLY set ol' Bats off his gourd.  King has NO gratitude toward the character who put him on the map.  IMHO, Bendis is a big Tim fanboy and has no use for anything Dickish.

----------


## Godlike13

The Bat office will never let him go. He’s their toilet, but at the same time they don’t have many characters not Batman that can carry 50+ issues in this market. And since their higher ups don’t really care about the character any more then they do they can put in half effort, be lazy, and not give a shit if what they are producing is the worst thing DC is putting on the selves. The professional integrity displayed by the editors and creators on this book right now makes my stomach hurt. Part of me is surprised someone didn’t step in after they tried to put Esquivel on the book right after he was outed, but it seems there is a lot going on with DC in background right now.

----------


## Schumiac

King (and Bane) wanted the emotinal blow to Bruce where his worst nightmares come true as a member of his family is shot right in front of his eyes... It is why in his nightmares when Selina is assasinated it is "just like Dick". Bruce keeps failing to protect his family members, they keep dying on him. In reality and in his nightmares. All this time he has trained, all the gadgets he invested on, he pushes himself to his limits, devotes his entire life to protect Gotham, and he still can't even protect those closest to him. All these years he is still where he was, as an 8 years old, standing helplessly as people he cares for the most are shot and are dying and leaving him behind... He is constantly denied happiness, if they don't leave him, then they die on him, and he is bound to be forever alone. That emotional turmoil is what is breaking him down, why he is so distraught and so doesn't have his act together. From the wedding to the shooting, it has all piled up. 

That is why a "Dick is too preoccupied right now" story wouldn't work the same way for King's story. 

King basically abused Dick for his own story and discarded him after getting what he needed from him. But what he got from him was important to the story. I am not happy with what he has done and what we have to suffer as a result, but I understand why it works for his story. The aftermath (for Dick) wasn't his job, he is too busy spending issue after issue delving into Bruce's psyche after all, in his "epic" Knightfall-clone story that he dreams will be hailed as the most sensational and ingenious thing ever... (rolling my eyes so hard they may just fall out) Btw, King is doing nothing other than the "Bruce's psyche" stuff, crazy Gotham Girl was something Williamson brought in. King did the "raging out for blood Batman beating KGBeast and Bane to a pulp / punching Gordon" as the immediate aftermath of Dick's assasination on Bruce's part and is now doing the "lost in his own mind"/breaking down Batman...
.
Aftermath of the shooting for Dick, as a character, was a mess for Bat-office and Nightwing writers to deal with and they obviously dropped the ball with it. It was an ugly mess they were given and no one should have to clean up someone else's mess but what was done was done and they had to deal with it. And they failed. They could try to make the best out of an amnesiac story, maybe have a good story written around it as Dick "refinds" himself, highlighting all the things intrinsic to the character that make him great and so endurable... But no. Instead we got one where he constantly talks about how stupid and crazy and meaningless who he was and what he did was, and is a guest in his own solo series as other characters named Nightwing take over.

So basically, I understand why King did what he did for his own ends (even if not happy with it), I just don't understand and accept why Bat-office and Nightwing writers have absolutely zero interest in the character and writing something semi-decent for him. They are not even trying....

----------


## Godlike13

Do you know what else is sad. This dog shit they are producing with hobo Ric and the We Wanna Be Nightwings is probably gonna last longer that what they ripped it off from did. Seriously everybody involved on this book right now are just the worst. Ripping off We Are Robin of all things. The people on the book are beyond lazy.

----------


## Badou

> King (and Bane) wanted the emotinal blow to Bruce where his worst nightmares come true as a member of his family is shot right in front of his eyes... It is why in his nightmares when Selina is assasinated it is "just like Dick". Bruce keeps failing to protect his family members, they keep dying on him. In reality and in his nightmares. All this time he has trained, all the gadgets he invested on, he pushes himself to his limits, devotes his entire life to protect Gotham, and he still can't even protect those closest to him. All these years he is still where he was, as an 8 years old, standing helplessly as people he cares for the most are shot and are dying and leaving him behind... He is constantly denied happiness, if they don't leave him, then they die on him, and he is bound to be forever alone. That emotional turmoil is what is breaking him down, why he is so distraught and so doesn't have his act together. From the wedding to the shooting, it has all piled up. 
> 
> That is why a "Dick is too preoccupied right now" story wouldn't work the same way for King's story. 
> 
> King basically abused Dick for his own story and discarded him after getting what he needed from him. But what he got from him was important to the story. I am not happy with what he has done and what we have to suffer as a result, but I understand why it works for his story. The aftermath (for Dick) wasn't his job, he is too busy spending issue after issue delving into Bruce's psyche after all, in his "epic" Knightfall-clone story that he dreams will be hailed as the most sensational and ingenious thing ever... (rolling my eyes so hard they may just fall out) Btw, King is doing nothing other than the "Bruce's psyche" stuff, crazy Gotham Girl was something Williamson brought in. King did the "raging out for blood Batman beating KGBeast and Bane to a pulp / punching Gordon" as the immediate aftermath of Dick's assasination on Bruce's part and is now doing the "lost in his own mind"/breaking down Batman...
> .
> Aftermath of the shooting for Dick, as a character, was a mess for Bat-office and Nightwing writers to deal with and they obviously dropped the ball with it. It was an ugly mess they were given and no one should have to clean up someone else's mess but what was done was done and they had to deal with it. And they failed. They could try to make the best out of an amnesiac story, maybe have a good story written around it as Dick "refinds" himself, highlighting all the things intrinsic to the character that make him great and so endurable... But no. Instead we got one where he constantly talks about how stupid and crazy and meaningless who he was and what he did was, and is a guest in his own solo series as other characters named Nightwing take over.
> 
> So basically, I understand why King did what he did for his own ends (even if not happy with it), I just don't understand and accept why Bat-office and Nightwing writers have absolutely zero interest in the character and writing something semi-decent for him. They are not even trying....


I just don't think that reason works because King said he would have hand waved Dick getting shot with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with it, but regardless King was going to shoot Dick in the head no matter what they said. So Dick could have been fixed and back to normal in less than 24 hours but King wouldn't have changed anything he did with his story, completely defeating Bruce going on his downward spiral, because he didn't care about it after that and would have ignored anything with it regardless. 

As for Gotham Girl, King isn't finished with her because you have to go back to the start of King's run where he jumped to the future where it is heavily implied that Gotham Girl "killed" Bruce or something along those lines where Bruce died. She was narrating about him being dead or gone in the future where she was married or with Duke too. Then you have her, as well as Catwoman, being very involved in Bane's plan and King has been trying to slowly set it up since the start of his run, but he did none of that with Dick. There was no set up or build up with Dick in his story and it just feels so minor in comparison to me.

I mean Damian is Bruce's son and he has been ignored in King's Batman story pretty much because other writers have taken the character and moved him away from Batman. No reason why Nightwing's writers couldn't have done the same if they just wanted to get Dick away from Bruce.

----------


## Schumiac

> I just don't think that reason works because King said he would have hand waved Dick getting shot with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with it, but regardless King was going to shoot Dick in the head no matter what they said. So Dick could have been fixed and back to normal in less than 24 hours but King wouldn't have changed anything he did with his story, completely defeating Bruce going on his downward spiral, because he didn't care about it after that and would have ignored anything with it regardless. 
> 
> As for Gotham Girl, King isn't finished with her because you have to go back to the start of King's run where he jumped to the future where it is heavily implied that Gotham Girl "killed" Bruce or something along those lines where Bruce died. She was narrating about him being dead or gone in the future where she was married or with Duke too. Then you have her, as well as Catwoman, being very involved in Bane's plan and King has been trying to slowly set it up since the start of his run, but he did none of that with Dick. There was no set up or build up with Dick in his story and it just feels so minor in comparison to me.
> 
> I mean Damian is Bruce's son and he has been ignored in King's Batman story pretty much because other writers have taken the character and moved him away from Batman. No reason why Nightwing's writers couldn't have done the same if they just wanted to get Dick away from Bruce.


Yeah i am calling bs on what King said about Zatanna fixing Dick. he knew it wasnt going to happen. his story needs it to not happen. he just tries to save himself from the backlash of it all. If Dick is fixed, he would be by Bruce to support him emotionally and also as an ally in the field. King wants Bruce as isolated and crazy as possible.It is also why Damian is nowhere to be seen, with the explanation being he and Batman are not on best of terms so he is off doing his own thing with TT, not really aware of what is going on with Daddy. Dick is another matter. His relationship is different. He is more empathical, he is older, more mature and he and Bruce have gone through a lot. He knows when Bruce needs help, and he wont just take offence and leave when Bruce does his usual shutting people out/dont need or want you here routine. "i am not talking to you" is not really an option for him to take.


I know Gotham Girl isnt finished as she is part of the whole Batman breaking/ killing group. I am saying King hasnt done anything with her recently himself as he is too focused on his Bruce's psyche stories. Everyone and everything else is ignored right now.They are the villains of his story, they need to be there... Dick isnt the villain, he is the ally and support system the villains take away. His "part" is getting hurt and being absent. He doesnt need to  build up Dick and Bruce's relationship and Dick's importance to Bruce as it was already there. He just had to highlight/remind it to everyone just before taking Dick off the game. which he did 

Nightwing's writers cant pretend the headshot didnt happen.But they certainly could do a much better story with it. They cant blame King for their own failure in this regard. besides the timelines are all over the place. is Batman, Detective and Nightwing even in synch?
it almost feels like Batman is taking place in the weeks following the head shot when Dick is probably still comatose or something... And Tec? may as well be happening before the headshot as Damian is actually around & Bruce takes a break from it all to have dinnetr with Leslie & he is crazy but not in a "lost in his own mind" kind of crazy but rather the "he is so hardcore, we think it is so cool" kind of crazy that Dc loves. Tec has been stalling too tbh, issue after issue revealed to be nothing but a simulation. Nightwing happens months after the headshot. We all know he is going to come back, he even showed up in Doomsday Clock so it is not a secret. Put in a disclaimer that says these events are happening 3 months after whatever is happening in Batman and get on with healing Dick. He doesnt even need to be fixed immediately, take a couple issues where he refinds himself. Doesnt need to meet with Bruce. Dick has enough family and friends that some of then could drop by to keep the readers engaged and stall that particular reunion...Heck, they could go with the  nightmares/simulation trend where the stories we read are just happening in the hero's mind and give us stories from Dick's past as he in reality is still camotose OR he can be healing and slowly "remembering" OR it can be people telling him these stories to jog his memory etc etc. Anything was better than what we have.

----------


## oasis1313

Darlin' Dan just couldn't resist another opportunity to dump poo-poo on the character and his fans.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

In case anyone was still expecting anything different, it looks like Dick and some of the Batfam will be zombies by issue #2 of DCeased lol.

----------


## Schumiac

well at least they are in good company. Supes is a zombie too..

----------


## Jackalope89

> In case anyone was still expecting anything different, it looks like Dick and some of the Batfam will be zombies by issue #2 of DCeased lol.


Dick is already a zombie.

----------


## Godlike13

Ooh, Zombie Nightwing. That could be such a fun direction.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ooh, Zombie Nightwing. That could be such a fun direction.


He'll probably be smarter than he is nowadays.

----------


## byrd156

> In case anyone was still expecting anything different, it looks like Dick and some of the Batfam will be zombies by issue #2 of DCeased lol.


I expect everyone to be dead except for Batman.

----------


## oasis1313

> I expect everyone to be dead except for Batman.


Isn't that the case every month?

----------


## Fergus

> In case anyone was still expecting anything different, it looks like Dick and some of the Batfam will be zombies by issue #2 of DCeased lol.


 Really? Well there's more money saved for me.

----------


## Ascended

Way things are going, why do ya'll even expect Dick to get a cameo in this thing? They'll likely ignore him and he won't even get to be a zombie.

----------


## Pohzee

> Way things are going, why do ya'll even expect Dick to get a cameo in this thing? They'll likely ignore him and he won't even get to be a zombie.


He was there with the JL when they took down Darkseid in the promo art that's out so far.

----------


## oasis1313

> He was there with the JL when they took down Darkseid in the promo art that's out so far.


Itty bitty.  Might just be "Hey, look--there's a microscopic Nightwing!  Buy this comic, you myopic Wingnuts!"

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing and Trantulas  from The Wonder Twins [found scan on Reddit]

----------


## dropkickjake

That's pretty meta.

----------


## dietrich

> That's pretty meta.


It is but i also found it in bad taste.

----------


## Ascended

I dunno, I think that's a pretty subtle and slick nod. Not in your face about it, just a man trying to kill a spider.  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

I thought it was funny.

----------


## Pohzee

> That's pretty meta.





> It is but i also found it in bad taste.


What am I missing here?

----------


## oasis1313

> It is but i also found it in bad taste.


How so?  I didn't see anything wrong with it, just a little snippet.

----------


## TheCape

> What am I missing here?


A reference to Devin Grayson's Tarantula?

Edit: Probably an strech but is the only thing that it comes to mind.

----------


## dietrich

> How so?  I didn't see anything wrong with it, just a little snippet.


I don't think rape jokes are ever funny or ever called for.

----------


## oasis1313

> A reference to Devin Grayson's Tarantula?
> 
> Edit: Probably an strech but is the only thing that it comes to mind.


Oh, I get it now.  But wasn't the Wonder Twins' last outings before Catalina came around?  Dick should have killed HER with a spatula like the worthless insect she was.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t think that was a reference to Grayson’s tarantula.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't think rape jokes are ever funny or ever called for.


I didn't see a rape joke; it was just a partial page with some Wonder Twins stuff on it.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, come to think of it, I'd be surprised if that was on purpose.

----------


## dietrich

> I don’t think that was a reference to Grayson’s tarantula.


To me it's implying that nightwing does like tarantula's because he had a bad experience with one.

----------


## Badou

Dick was being afraid of the spider because it was a tarantula. Not just because it was a spider. So it was an obvious reference to Dick being raped by Tarantula. Not sure how you can read it any other way. Specifically using Nightwing and using a tarantula doesn't feel like a coincidence. 

If the genders were reversed this joke would be getting slammed a lot more than it is probably.

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing lived with Beast Boy because they were members of the Titans. He was probably scared of a tarantula because it was a tarantula. Those spiders specifically would freak anyone out. I read that issue a week ago and the connection never entered my mind.

----------


## Ascended

I didnt notice at first either. 

I think it's clearly a reference; otherwise the writer would have just had Gar say "spider" instead of the more specific "tarantula." Sure that's the spider that everyone hates/fears the most, because they're soulless, horrible, large hairy nightmares from the depths of hel. But tarantulas have too much relevance in Dick's story for this to just be as simple as "people hate the big ones the most."

But it's a really minor easter egg and subtle enough I dont think it's cause for anyone to get offended. Dick doesn't like tarantulas now. He's got good reason for that. It's actually pretty good characterization without being blunt and says more about how Dick processed that whole thing, with more finesse, than any conversation anyone has written into the comics about it.

----------


## Godlike13

> To me it's implying that nightwing does like tarantula's because he had a bad experience with one.


Or tarantula’s are just gross as shit. My mom bought my brother one once, to this day we still don’t know why. It was a nightmare. Neither of us could sleep. Those things are disgusting.

----------


## Schumiac

Nightwing or any hero freaking out about a spider would be a bit silly. A tarantula on the other hand is a different matter. which is what i think that was all about  no intention to reference Devin Graysons horrid writing  i think dc in general prefers to pretend it never happened and forget about it  and for all we know the writer may not even know about it or remember it themselves...


I am weirdly more bothered by the fact Dick thought of cruahing it with a spatula. Come.on, Dick, be creative. Dont ruin the cooking utensils!!!

----------


## byrd156

It really seems like a stretch to think that it's a rape joke.

----------


## Badou

I don't think it was intended to be a rape joke, but just a dumb reference to that incident like an easter egg. A bizarre choice of one, but one still.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't think it was intended to be a rape joke, but just a dumb reference to that incident like an easter egg. A bizarre choice of one, but one still.


I don't see it. Being scared by a spider is pretty normal, tarantulas are the go to for "scary" spiders since they are big and fuzzy. I can see the line of thinking that makes you think it's a reference but it takes a few leaps to get there.

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing and Trantulas  from The Wonder Twins [found scan on Reddit]


Wow, that sounds like the closest anyone's come to killing Beast Boy.

----------


## Badou

> I don't see it. Being scared by a spider is pretty normal, tarantulas are the go to for "scary" spiders since they are big and fuzzy. I can see the line of thinking that makes you think it's a reference but it takes a few leaps to get there.


The fact they used Nightwing and then tarantula over spider or another hero feels very deliberate. Too much of coincidence, imo. I don't think it really takes any leaps to see the obvious set up for the reference, but to each their own. It honestly feels like the simplest answer, especially coming from a series that is kind of doing a lot of quick and random references about the DCU.

----------


## byrd156

> The fact they used Nightwing and then tarantula over spider or another hero feels very deliberate. Too much of coincidence, imo. I don't think it really takes any leaps to see the obvious set up for the reference, but to each their own. It honestly feels like the simplest answer, especially coming from a series that is kind of doing a lot of quick and random references about the DCU.


How would Beast Boy even know about that or more importantly why would they bring that back up?

----------


## BloodOps

lmao

the people raging about this need to stop, it was a small joke about spiders, it was not referencing the Devin Grayson issue from the 90's or anything like that.

this generation needs to stop getting triggered over every small thing that happens.

----------


## Robanker

It's a coincidence. Tarantulas freak a lot of people out, so while it's definitely an editorial oversight, I strictly believe nobody at DC seriously thought "let's make a pun about that time Nightwing got raped." Even if it's fun to think that DC editorial wouldn't miss a chance to take a shot at him.

They're not going to publish a book about religious satire in their mature readers line. A misprint leading to some accidental (obscured) nudity lead to an entire publishing initiative being stillborn. They are definitely not going to use a plot where one of their characters was raped for a cheap off-the-cuffs gag. Maybe it is, but with all the layoffs in effect, I kind of doubt it.

For what it's worth, I think a lot of newer Nightwing fans don't even know it happened.

----------


## dropkickjake

I'd say its somewhere between "total coincidence" and "rape joke."

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a43/1903/9a/3b1a113f93e7.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://c.***********/c03/1903/e0/4d1712a68092.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Buz5pt4Hkak/

----------


## Badou

> How would Beast Boy even know about that or more importantly why would they bring that back up?


What? No, it wasn't Beast Boy using that story to reference something he knew about Dick and Tarantula. It was the writer slipping in a reference in a subtle meta way about Nightwing and Tarantula through the use of Beast Boy's story about Nightwing being freaked out when he turned into a spider. We aren't talking about Beast Boy turning into a tarantula to freak out Nightwing because he was raped in the past by Tarantula.

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a43/1903/9a/3b1a113f93e7.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]https://c.***********/c03/1903/e0/4d1712a68092.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Buz5pt4Hkak/


Who is this character?  The second variation is wearing Tim's insignia.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Who is this character?  The second variation is wearing Tim's insignia.


Rci Grayson, a D level hero that DC decided to give a shot and see if hes worth anything.

----------


## dietrich

> lmao
> 
> the people raging about this need to stop, it was a small joke about spiders, it was not referencing the Devin Grayson issue from the 90's or anything like that.
> 
> this generation needs to stop getting triggered over every small thing that happens.


No we don't. You took it as a joke about spiders I did not. Doesn't mean I'm right or that yo're wrong. It just means we feel differently. You are welcome to feel however you want but don't be so arrogant as to tell others to stop just cos difference of opinion.

can we stop using the word triggered so casually plz. It has a very serious meaning. Dissatisfaction and taking offence doesn't = triggered. Stating ones opinion doesn't =raging.

You take away the weight in the meaning of these words by tossing them around so casually and applying them incorrectly.

It's fair if others did not take this the way I did but plz do not ask me to stop.

----------


## dietrich

No 3 is my favourite




Nightwing and Robin



https://twitter.com/0022212t

----------


## nightbird

> Who is this character?  The second variation is wearing Tim's insignia.


Dick. And that part doesn’t matter anymore in any media, expect comics (also very vague)

----------


## Ascended

> No 3 is my favourite


Number 1 is the length I like best for Dick, but not combed like that. It should be slicked back. He should look a little more....dangerous (in that rakish, sexy bad boy you'll never hold onto sorta way) than these hairdo's give him credit for.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Number 1 is the length I like best for Dick, but not combed like that. It should be slicked back. He should look a little more....dangerous (in that rakish, sexy bad boy you'll never hold onto sorta way) than these hairdo's give him credit for.


I think that's down to the animation style more than the hair style. Dick will always have the early-mid 2000s scruffy mop top look for me. Shaggy, is the word. Not really "bad boy" so much as "care free."

----------


## Pohzee

I prefer a clean cut. Edgy emo hair is out.

Anything much longer than 2 or 3 inches is gonna look awful when you're swinging around buildings anyway.

----------


## oasis1313

I liked the ponytail a lot.  Dick is one of the few characters who can rock a look like that.

----------


## Robanker

I'm partial to style 1, but 4 isn't bad either. I used to think 1 was the only way to do, but a few artists (like Ivan Reis) convinced me that the fourth works as well.

----------


## Badou

> Yeah i am calling bs on what King said about Zatanna fixing Dick. he knew it wasnt going to happen. his story needs it to not happen. he just tries to save himself from the backlash of it all. If Dick is fixed, he would be by Bruce to support him emotionally and also as an ally in the field. King wants Bruce as isolated and crazy as possible.It is also why Damian is nowhere to be seen, with the explanation being he and Batman are not on best of terms so he is off doing his own thing with TT, not really aware of what is going on with Daddy. Dick is another matter. His relationship is different. He is more empathical, he is older, more mature and he and Bruce have gone through a lot. He knows when Bruce needs help, and he wont just take offence and leave when Bruce does his usual shutting people out/dont need or want you here routine. "i am not talking to you" is not really an option for him to take.
> 
> 
> I know Gotham Girl isnt finished as she is part of the whole Batman breaking/ killing group. I am saying King hasnt done anything with her recently himself as he is too focused on his Bruce's psyche stories. Everyone and everything else is ignored right now.They are the villains of his story, they need to be there... Dick isnt the villain, he is the ally and support system the villains take away. His "part" is getting hurt and being absent. He doesnt need to  build up Dick and Bruce's relationship and Dick's importance to Bruce as it was already there. He just had to highlight/remind it to everyone just before taking Dick off the game. which he did 
> 
> Nightwing's writers cant pretend the headshot didnt happen.But they certainly could do a much better story with it. They cant blame King for their own failure in this regard. besides the timelines are all over the place. is Batman, Detective and Nightwing even in synch?
> it almost feels like Batman is taking place in the weeks following the head shot when Dick is probably still comatose or something... And Tec? may as well be happening before the headshot as Damian is actually around & Bruce takes a break from it all to have dinnetr with Leslie & he is crazy but not in a "lost in his own mind" kind of crazy but rather the "he is so hardcore, we think it is so cool" kind of crazy that Dc loves. Tec has been stalling too tbh, issue after issue revealed to be nothing but a simulation. Nightwing happens months after the headshot. We all know he is going to come back, he even showed up in Doomsday Clock so it is not a secret. Put in a disclaimer that says these events are happening 3 months after whatever is happening in Batman and get on with healing Dick. He doesnt even need to be fixed immediately, take a couple issues where he refinds himself. Doesnt need to meet with Bruce. Dick has enough family and friends that some of then could drop by to keep the readers engaged and stall that particular reunion...Heck, they could go with the  nightmares/simulation trend where the stories we read are just happening in the hero's mind and give us stories from Dick's past as he in reality is still camotose OR he can be healing and slowly "remembering" OR it can be people telling him these stories to jog his memory etc etc. Anything was better than what we have.


I was going to leave the discussion there, but two parts of it were eating at me after thinking about it a bit. 

One is that King didn't need to do anything with Dick's relationship since it was already established, but that same argument could be made for Catwoman. Her relationship with Bruce is just as established, but King is building his entire run around her while Dick got one issue to joke around and then got shot. I understand what King was trying to do with his story, but I don't think he put the time in to really make it work because of how little he invested into using Dick to build up that emotional tie for his 100+ issue story. 

But the second part, and more important part that I wanted to respond to, was the idea that the Nightwing writers couldn't ignore Dick getting shot in the head. They very much could have. The perfect example for this was what happened to Dick in Forever Evil. Dick got his secret identity exposed to the entire world. Everyone knew that Dick was Nightwing and about his connection to Bruce Wayne, but Snyder and all the Batman writers (outside Grayson writers) basically ignored it. Such a gigantic reveal that should have completely changed the course of Batman's mythos was ignored by the Batman office. So it really should work both ways if a Nightwing writer doesn't want to deal with shit that messes up their own story, but they have to work under the main Batman book and that is a MAJOR issue for how messed up books like Nightwing have been since the start of the New 52. It is something that bothers me immensely.

----------


## Konja7

I would say that King would prefer Dick has consequences. He even has an idea about Dick recovering, while Tim was his replacement as Nightwing. 

However, I don't think King needs this for his Batman story, so Zatanna magic was an option too. He can mantain Dick away in other ways (a mission or something like that). The effect in Batman (the only reason why the shot happened) can be mantained even if Dick recovers completely, since Batman feelings about the shot won't dissapear.


Another topic, Nigthwing #57 (February) has 26K, the it seems the sales are stable. The Rick thing has not decreased its sales (Nightwing sold similar before Rick and Lobdell).

----------


## Robanker

> I would say that King would prefer Dick has consequences. He even has an idea about Dick recovering, while Tim was his replacement as Nightwing. 
> 
> However, I don't think King needs this for his Batman story, so Zatanna magic was an option too. He can mantain Dick away in other ways (a mission or something like that). The effect in Batman (the only reason why the shot happened) can be mantained even if Dick recovers completely, since Batman feelings about the shot won't dissapear.
> 
> 
> Another topic, Nigthwing #57 (February) has 26K, the it seems the sales are stable. The Rick thing has not decreased its sales (Nightwing sold similar before Rick and Lobdell).


Some fans are historians in the essence that as long as it's [character], they'll read it. Others won't let their collection have holes in it, quality be damned. Granted some people probably enjoy Ric, but I think this is pretty much all we're seeing at this point.

----------


## Godlike13

Stunts like these are done to stay a series natural bleeding, but this stunt did nothing really for sales. It saw an insignificant fleeting bump and what’s more saw the loss of the books double ship. Look at Batgirl for what ideally they would want this to have looked like, but instead Nightwing is now consistently selling under Batgirl. And what’s more there’s all these creators they have had to bring in on it. This book is on its death march.

----------


## Konja7

> Sales are crap. Stunts like these are done to stay a series natural bleeding, but this stunt did nothing for sales. It saw an insignificant fleeting bump and what’s more saw the loss of the books double ship. Look at Batgirl for what ideally they would want this to have done, but instead Nightwing is now selling under Batgirl. And what’s more there’s all these creators they have had to bring in on it. This book is on its death march.


I wouldn't say a death march, since the sales are practically the same now than before the Ric thing sarted. 

Some suspect the higher sales for Batgirl can be due to the variants (some artist in variant really increase sales at some level). Although I am not totally sure if this is right.

----------


## Godlike13

And that’s not good. Sales already weren’t great for him, and with the loss of the double ship what this book is pulling in a month is actually worse. The book is now shipping less and needs more hires to complete, yet is seeing no real effect. I expect the series to read “Finale Issue" any month now. These are not good numbers for the character. The saddest thing too is that it’s probably the next series, if there is one, that will truly see the ramifications of this.

And Nightwing gets variants too. Both books have always been getting variants for the most part. That’s not what is different or signaled the change in sales for Batgirl. It started with her direction change.

----------


## Konja7

> And Nightwing gets variants too. Both books have always been getting variants for the most part. That’s not what is different or signaled the change in sales for Batgirl. It started with her direction change.


I don't mean variants. I mean the artist of this variants. 

It sounds weird, but some variants for certain artists really increase sales. For example: When Supergirl has a variant of Artgerm, its sales increase like 10 K.

As I said, I'm not sure if this is true, since it was a rumor I heard. You probably are right and the increase of sales in Batgirl is for the change of direction.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't mean variants. I mean the artist of this variants. 
> 
> It sounds weird, but some variants for certain artists really increase sales. For example: When Supergirl has a variant of Artgerm, its sales increase like 10 K.
> 
> As I said, I'm not sure if this is true, since it was a rumor I heard. You probably are right and the increase of sales in Batgirl is for the change of direction.


The cheese cake variants do increase sales

----------


## dietrich

> I liked the ponytail a lot.  Dick is one of the few characters who can rock a look like that.


That ponytail is hilarious.
Dick can rock any hair style. Even the buzz cut worked when he isn't drawn ugly

----------


## Badou

Getting rid of the double ship probably was so they could bleed out the Ric story until the Summer and not have to do more with it. Just churn out an issue of Ric once a month until King gets to his big Batman Summer event where they will probably cancel the Nightwing book and then do some more dumb shit with the character to try and tie him into King's story. I'm sure it will be great. Not awful at all...

Also didn't they cancel Nightwing double shipping but then brought it back for a bit and then got rid of it again? I feel like that happened, but maybe not. I guess it might have been to try and rush together a complete volume of issues before the Ric shit.

----------


## oasis1313

> Getting rid of the double ship probably was so they could bleed out the Ric story until the Summer and not have to do more with it. Just churn out an issue of Ric once a month until King gets to his big Batman Summer event where they will probably cancel the Nightwing book and then do some more dumb shit with the character to try and tie him into King's story. I'm sure it will be great. Not awful at all...
> 
> Also didn't they cancel Nightwing double shipping but then brought it back for a bit and then got rid of it again? I feel like that happened, but maybe not. I guess it might have been to try and rush together a complete volume of issues before the Ric shit.


I don't think there are any further plans to tie Nightwing into King's story.  One panel and it's exit stage left.  Batgirl is being built up and made to look good in her own book; Nightwing is in the gutter--which book is going to sell better?

----------


## Vinsanity

The new directions for Batgirl sold well because it was different, and there were more stories

I feel like there is reader and writer fatigue for NW plus stories about Batman, you can use Dick because after Killing Joke, not sure you can use Babs. So naturally Dick is the go to for anything bad that happens for the Bats. (Ric, Forever Evil and so on)

----------


## WonderNight

Do you mean creative are tired of not being able to actually do anything with nightwing and not interested in more bludhevan, day job, street nightwing. Or nightwing in general?

----------


## oasis1313

> The new directions for Batgirl sold well because it was different, and there were more stories
> 
> I feel like there is reader and writer fatigue for NW plus stories about Batman, you can use Dick because after Killing Joke, not sure you can use Babs. So naturally Dick is the go to for anything bad that happens for the Bats. (Ric, Forever Evil and so on)


I get fatigued on my job, too--but I get paid to push on past it and do the right thing for the department.  There's no excuse for half-assery unless your Boss, the Publisher, the guy who signs your paycheck, says, "I want this book to fail so please write it as miserably as possible."

----------


## Aahz

> Getting rid of the double ship probably was so they could bleed out the Ric story until the Summer and not have to do more with it.


I don't really think it's surprising that they couldn't keep the book double shipping after the sudden change of the creative team.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't really think it's surprising that they couldn't keep the book double shipping after the sudden change of the creative team.


Didio would probably say once-monthly shipping is too much, and he'd prefer not to ship the book at all.

----------


## L.H.

A little spoiler from JL #20 
*spoilers:*
 Dick is the Batman in the Sixth Dimension. Bruce died, and he took his place in a quite different Gotham. He is also calling himself Dick. 
*end of spoilers*
Snyder kinda made my day. 
Can this be a hint that he really wants to write a Nightwing arc?

----------


## OBrianTallent

At this point I would just about take anyone as long as we got Dick Grayson: Nightwing back and not this decimation of character we have now.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Jimenez also co-wrote these issues. And the future Batman design is almost the exact same design as his second Dick Grayson redesign for Earth 2: Society. Jimenez has said he does like Dick, so it's always possible he just wanted to reuse his design and then Jimenez and Snyder decided the future Batman didn't have to be Bruce....
*spoilers:*
It's hilarious when you think about it. Aside from the future JL maybe being evil and/or not really the future JL, they've presented as "evolved" or better versions of the JL living in a better world. The Flash is a Jay-Barry-Wally composite that has full control of the Speed and Still Forces. Superman is all Zeus-like. John is a White Lantern with full access to the White Entity. Diana is like Hippolyta but stronger since she knows magic. And so on.

But Batman? The only "evolved" thing about the future Batman is that it's Dick under the cowl. There's nothing special about him, aside from him being Dick. He doesn't have some fancy futuristic suit, he doesn't have Brother Eye up, he didn't make any deals with any devils. He's just Dick, and a member of the future, evolved JL. That's pretty cool imo.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing was painful. That's normal now. 


As much I love DickBats not really a fan of Dick becoming Bruce after batman stories because it Underlines that Nightwing is a sidekick.

Robin's Primary school, Nightwing is Secondary School and Batman is University.

It gives them licence to treat him as a sidekick and keeps him down

----------


## dietrich

> Jimenez also co-wrote these issues. And the future Batman design is almost the exact same design as his second Dick Grayson redesign for Earth 2: Society. Jimenez has said he does like Dick, so it's always possible he just wanted to reuse his design and then Jimenez and Snyder decided the future Batman didn't have to be Bruce....
> *spoilers:*
> It's hilarious when you think about it. Aside from the future JL maybe being evil and/or not really the future JL, they've presented as "evolved" or better versions of the JL living in a better world. The Flash is a Jay-Barry-Wally composite that has full control of the Speed and Still Forces. Superman is all Zeus-like. John is a White Lantern with full access to the White Entity. Diana is like Hippolyta but stronger since she knows magic. And so on.
> 
> But Batman? The only "evolved" thing about the future Batman is that it's Dick under the cowl. There's nothing special about him, aside from him being Dick. He doesn't have some fancy futuristic suit, he doesn't have Brother Eye up, he didn't make any deals with any devils. He's just Dick, and a member of the future, evolved JL. That's pretty cool imo.
> *end of spoilers*


Almost like Morrison already said this. Wait he did in Reborn.

----------


## L.H.

I think that the Sixth Dimension *spoilers:*
 is built upon the hopes of the actual JL. A perfect world, Barry reunited with Jay and Wally, the son of Kendra and J'onn, the future selves of Diana and John...and Dick following Bruce steppe, but in asunny Gotham. To each of them, is a dream come true.  Let' see how It turns, but this sure shows love for the character. 
*end of spoilers*

Thinking of Morrison, 10 years ago we had DickBats... I want so bad a time machine, right now...

----------


## oasis1313

> I think that the Sixth Dimension *spoilers:*
>  is built upon the hopes of the actual JL. A perfect world, Barry reunited with Jay and Wally, the son of Kendra and J'onn, the future selves of Diana and John...and Dick following Bruce steppe, but in asunny Gotham. To each of them, is a dream come true.  Let' see how It turns, but this sure shows love for the character. 
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Thinking of Morrison, 10 years ago we had DickBats... I want so bad a time machine, right now...


I had the day off so I've been wallowing in my Morrison B&R trades, funny you mentioned Morrison today.  Wonder how much it'd cost to bribe him to come back.

----------


## Schumiac

> I don't really think it's surprising that they couldn't keep the book double shipping after the sudden change of the creative team.


Seriously. They obviously can't even  be arsed to do a decent story monthly, it is very repetitive, doing it bi-weekly would have been impossible.





> I was going to leave the discussion there, but two parts of it were eating at me after thinking about it a bit. 
> 
> One is that King didn't need to do anything with Dick's relationship since it was already established, but that same argument could be made for Catwoman. Her relationship with Bruce is just as established, but King is building his entire run around her while Dick got one issue to joke around and then got shot. I understand what King was trying to do with his story, but I don't think he put the time in to really make it work because of how little he invested into using Dick to build up that emotional tie for his 100+ issue story. 
> 
> But the second part, and more important part that I wanted to respond to, was the idea that the Nightwing writers couldn't ignore Dick getting shot in the head. They very much could have. The perfect example for this was what happened to Dick in Forever Evil. Dick got his secret identity exposed to the entire world. Everyone knew that Dick was Nightwing and about his connection to Bruce Wayne, but Snyder and all the Batman writers (outside Grayson writers) basically ignored it. Such a gigantic reveal that should have completely changed the course of Batman's mythos was ignored by the Batman office. So it really should work both ways if a Nightwing writer doesn't want to deal with shit that messes up their own story, but they have to work under the main Batman book and that is a MAJOR issue for how messed up books like Nightwing have been since the start of the New 52. It is something that bothers me immensely.


Catwoman and Bats have history, yes but King is going for the "love of his life" thing which always needs work. Dick's position in Bruce's life is rather clear. Besides King is basically writing a Bat/Cat fanfiction mixed with his rendition of Knightfall, so of course Catwoman will have more presence in the story. I don't expect Nightwing/Dick to be all over it. Doesn't mean Dick getting shot isn't significant within the story and for Bruce. It is. Tim, Jason, Damian. Any one of these could be shot in the head too and it wouldn't be the "same" imho because in all those stories Dick would have been there to help Bruce out. Shooting Dick gives the emotional blow and takes out Bruce's main support system all at once. That is why to me it plays an important part in his story.

 I am waiting to see where King goes with it all before I make a final judgement but I am certainly "judging" what he has done so far, and so far, to me, it feels like he is a writer whose ego has gotten so huge that he gets these ideas in his head which he feels are "cool" and without thinking much about them, what the ramifications would be or if they make sense within the story etc etc just goes ahead and does them. And as there is absolutely no one keeping him in check, this is the mess we have. He isnt just hurting Dick, the Batman/Bruce fan in me is also hating what he is doing to him, esp the fact that Thomas is involved in all this. It is just wrong and doesnt make  sense to me and the whole story is so pompous and trying hard that all I can do is make fun of it. And I actually rather dislike the Bat/Cat ship now (and the fact they call themselves Bat and Cat. uggghh)

After Forever Evil Dick's ongoing got canceled and turned into Grayson. I would say that is a big case of his own title not being able to ignore whatever happened then too. The id reveal was not going to effect the Bat-titles, it was going to be contained as something done to Nightwing/Dick with no relation to Bruce/Bats which got "taken care of" by declaring Dick dead and sending him off as a spy. Where he could still "interact" with Bruce so wasn't totally cut off. Bottom line is, if editorial says "he is not Nightwing anymore, he is Grayson, the spy" that is what his writers has to write. If editorial says "he is not Dick anymore, he is Ric" that is what his writers has to write. Does it suck? Big time. And I am especially bothered by the fact that what one writer who is not even the writer of the character does to him in some other story is allowed to effect the character this much. I am pretty sure no one asked Nightwing writers if they were "Ok" with this. What King wanted, King got. It is very very disrespectful, to the character, to the other creators and to the fans of the character. A character having his own on-going has to mean something, they shouldn't be treated like play things. But unless you are one of the Big Three you always run the risk of being used and discarded for the sake of someone else's story I suppose...

And it just occurred to me, Bruce had amnesia and a cop got to play Batman in his absence and now the same with Dick... And King is basically recycling Knightfall... Not very creative are we, DC?


PS: Seeing Batman 67, Nightwing writers arent the laziest of the writers in DC's employment, after all... I know King is trying to stretch things out to 100 issues but gosh, have some decency, make an effort.

----------


## Ascended

> Shooting Dick gives the emotional blow and takes out Bruce's main support system all at once. That is why to me it plays an important part in his story.


I can see the point of shooting Dick to further this narrative of Bruce's. It's an attack on Bruce via his support system. It makes sense, you go after the loved ones. Far from the first time this has been done to the Bat family.

But there's no justification for letting a Batman story totally derail Dick's book. Not only has this thrown the title off the rails for what, almost a year now? but it screwed up all the plans Percy, Dick's actual writer, was in the middle of executing. That's just not very polite, professionally.

If you needed Dick off the board for the duration of this Knightfall 2.0, then just toss a blurb on the first page of Nightwing "this story takes place six months after KGBeast shot Dick." Or whatever. Now we've established that Dick was out of the game for King's story but Dick's book can actually continue. And its a minor time-lapse, really, not really any different from the time-lapse that lets Batman have all his bones broken in JL but be fine in his own titles.

----------


## Schumiac

> I can see the point of shooting Dick to further this narrative of Bruce's. It's an attack on Bruce via his support system. It makes sense, you go after the loved ones. Far from the first time this has been done to the Bat family.
> 
> But there's no justification for letting a Batman story totally derail Dick's book. Not only has this thrown the title off the rails for what, almost a year now? but it screwed up all the plans Percy, Dick's actual writer, was in the middle of executing. That's just not very polite, professionally.
> 
> If you needed Dick off the board for the duration of this Knightfall 2.0, then just toss a blurb on the first page of Nightwing "this story takes place six months after KGBeast shot Dick." Or whatever. Now we've established that Dick was out of the game for King's story but Dick's book can actually continue. And its a minor time-lapse, really, not really any different from the time-lapse that lets Batman have all his bones broken in JL but be fine in his own titles.


Agreed totally... It sucks and it is rude, unfair and horrid form from both King and bat-office in general which shows their total disregard for other creators and Dick and his fans...

And yeah, I wish they would have done the "disclaimer" thing where he continues to have his stories but set in the future. OR, if DC cant have that, I would even settle for his book having a "nostalgia" phase where they delve into past untold adventures or whatever to pass the time (could be his version of "stuck in his own brain" thing). Anything but this. I don't know if editoral would veto such suggestions, like if they are dead-set on there being an amnesiac Ric character whose entire existence seems to be about telling us how Dick was crazy and was wasting his life playing the hero etc etc.. I can't fathom how they could possibly think the current story any good... So part of me thinks, editorial's general disregard for the character aside, Lobdell and co can't be bothered to do anything with him either. Like, they didn't even try to make this somewhat readable and bearable.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason has shown us what Lobdell can do when he has "ownership" and the guiding vision for a character.  If Lobdell could have gotten Nightwing when he started on Red Hood, he could have likely written something wild and cool, and maybe been able to protect Dick from Didio a little.

----------


## oasis1313

> I can see the point of shooting Dick to further this narrative of Bruce's. It's an attack on Bruce via his support system. It makes sense, you go after the loved ones. Far from the first time this has been done to the Bat family.
> 
> But there's no justification for letting a Batman story totally derail Dick's book. Not only has this thrown the title off the rails for what, almost a year now? but it screwed up all the plans Percy, Dick's actual writer, was in the middle of executing. That's just not very polite, professionally.
> 
> If you needed Dick off the board for the duration of this Knightfall 2.0, then just toss a blurb on the first page of Nightwing "this story takes place six months after KGBeast shot Dick." Or whatever. Now we've established that Dick was out of the game for King's story but Dick's book can actually continue. And its a minor time-lapse, really, not really any different from the time-lapse that lets Batman have all his bones broken in JL but be fine in his own titles.


If they needed Dick "off the board", they should have sent him to space with Justice League Odyssey instead of Azrael.  Then have 'Beest shoot Tim in the guts and hang him up in a tree with his own intestines knotted around his neck.

----------


## Godlike13

> Jason has shown us what Lobdell can do when he has "ownership" and the guiding vision for a character.  If Lobdell could have gotten Nightwing when he started on Red Hood, he could have likely written something wild and cool, and maybe been able to protect Dick from Didio a little.


Lobdell hasn’t worked out for any character except arguably Jason, and even with a Jason it took 2 series and the death of any expectations to get something people don’t bash. Sure maybe after 5 years with Nightwing he could eventually do something that doesn’t generally suck, but personally I’ve already had more than I could take of his Nightwings.

----------


## oasis1313

I loved the stuff he did for the X-Men and Generation-X.  Never read any of his YJ material because of the Tim Boycott.  Wasn't fond of the first group of Outlaws but the second group really makes a great surrogate family for Jason.  I don't blame him for Riki Dicki Tavi and the Wannabees because Didio dumped all the poopie in his lap; it wasn't his decision to shoot Dick in the head.  For all I know, it was Didio who ordered the character be presented as filthy and disgusting as possible.

----------


## Godlike13

Shooting Dick in head hasn’t even been worse thing about Ric. It’s eveything it lead to. Lobdell has done nothing but double down on stupid. From turning shooting Dick in the head into a lazy rip off of We Are Robin, to his tactless portrayal of Ric and his awful insulting commentary on Dick. We have no clue that Didio order this, but we do know that Lobdell is the one writing this garbage week after week. Since Lobdell was anounced on this it was “well RHatO is good”, yet never the less 8 issues in his Nightwing has been nothing but typical Lobdell garbage. If I never have to read anything from Lobdell again it’ll be too soon. Personally speaking he can’t leave Nightwing soon enough.

----------


## Slim Shady

I will say Lobdell is a professional and should be able to do better than whats going on. Im not trying to excuse bad, lazy writing.

But it is a sorry situation. They dump a character on him that he doesnt write and a title hes never been on and has nothing to do with, and tell him about this new direction they want him to go but they need a writer since the current writer up and quit because of said direction. Just dont do anything major because none of this is going to last, just stretch it out for a year or so. Thats just sucky for everybody including fans.

Lobdell doesnt even seem like that type of writer. The kind of on a whim can pump out a decent story in his sleep. He seems to need to be all in fully invested, with time to set up and lay out his stories. I think hes shown with a lot of his X-Men stuff and Red Hood that he be a good comic writer in the right situation.

Jurgens is writing an issue or two soon, I bet he will have the best issues. Just because he does seem to be the type of writer that can give you a decent story in short notice. Ive seen him come in a few occasions and be able to fill in with at least readable stuff. Might not be great but wont be garbage.

----------


## dropkickjake

I think that Lobdell fits Jason's sensibilities as a character. He's a good fit there. He isn't a good fit here.

----------


## Ascended

> Jason has shown us what Lobdell can do when he has "ownership" and the guiding vision for a character.  If Lobdell could have gotten Nightwing when he started on Red Hood, he could have likely written something wild and cool, and maybe been able to protect Dick from Didio a little.


Maybe. Lobdell is wildly hit or miss, in my opinion. Sometimes, he does amazing work. Sometimes he has amazing ideas that aren't executed well. Sometimes he's just a horrible fit for a character and its all bad. Seems like for every Red Hood he has, he's got a Teen Titans as well.

I don't know which Lobdell would have shown up for Nightwing. I think the guy has the imagination to bring Dick off the street level into some really weird, fun, cool stories and concepts......but I dunno if he could pull it off. I don't recall ever reading anything of his that featured Dick prominently. 

But there's no way he'd have protected Dick from management. Lobdell always rolls with the edicts, even when it cuts his feet out from under him. He seems very management friendly and if Didio or whoever had told him to do something bad for the character (like Ric), Lobdell would've done it. And I dont hold it against him; he's doing what his bosses tell him. And if he refuses to write it they'll just get someone else, so he might as well get the paycheck.

----------


## dietrich

Happy birthday Dick Grayson [I wasn't even aware it was his birthday]





https://twitter.com/JarrulusX

----------


## dietrich

https://twitter.com/SeaaFood00

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Happy birthday Ric! Hope you get a fresh draft on the house and later on....maybe Bea will let you walk her home.

----------


## dietrich

> Happy birthday Ric! Hope you get a fresh draft on the house and later on....maybe Bea will let you walk her home.


Who the heck said it was Ric's birthday mate? Ric was born the day that person woke up from that coma. You better go find that date and mark that on your calendar.

----------


## CPSparkles

Happy Birthday Dick Grayson. I hope you come back soon.

----------


## Ascended

I thought his birthday was in December? 

 :Wink:

----------


## nightbird

With new Titans casting announcement I’m so excited to see how whole Wilson family would interact with Dick. Especially Rose. At least, I’m satisfied that we will see Deathstroke being Nightwing/Robins/Titans enemy, not Bats’.

----------


## Schumiac

from http://fyeahdickgrayson.tumblr.com/t...ayson/page/192

----------


## Schumiac

> I thought his birthday was in December?


 :Big Grin:

----------


## Schumiac

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/159...d-of-course-it

----------


## L.H.

> I thought his birthday was in December?


On december the first, that's in Young Justice comics, so I bet it's only on Earth 16.

----------


## Aahz

> On december the first, that's in Young Justice comics, so I bet it's only on Earth 16.


Dick has the following Birtfdays:
- March 10 (from some silverage News paper strip)
- November 11 (Silver age DC calender)
- July or August (he had his 20th Birthday near the end of COIE which was set in that time frame)
- the week before Halloween (Secret Origins Vol2 #50)
- first day of spring/March 21 (Robin Annual #4)
- December 1st (Young Justice)

----------


## dropkickjake

yeah im a fan of the first day of spring, personally.

----------


## Ascended

I dunno where it came from but Ive got it in my head that Superman's birthday (one of them) was December 1st too? 

Might be something I made up in my own head. But I liked the idea of Clark and Dick sharing a birthday. 

 :Frown:

----------


## oasis1313

I'm looking at my "official" DC Superheroes Calendar from 1976, and it gives the following birthdays:

Dick Grayson:  November 11
Comissioner Gordon:  January 5
Bruce Wayne:  February 19 (damn Pisces)
Clark Kent:  February 29 (Superman's birthday is in a Leap Year)
Selina Kyle:  March 14
Murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne:  June 8
Joker Falls in Chemical Vat:  July 11
Murder of John and Mary Grayson:  July 15
Batman Meets Catwoman:  July 28
Joker (birthday): August 1
Dick's First Appearance as Robin:  August 25
Barbara Gordon (birthday): September 23
Batman's First Clash with the Joker: October 13

----------


## nhienphan2808

I am strange because I love the November Birthday. I never buy the spring birthday. He was and remains a Scorpio from the Golden Age. He never look like a Aries to me. It’s weird because Chuck Dixon wrote the spring and his mother thing but it’s also him who loved the Robin name being taken without Dicks consent. So no thanks for pretending Robin is this bright happy thing. Dick sure is not right now. The way he fights and persists and is a brother and loses and hurts is pure Scorpio. The real Aries in DC is Garth who fight much more simplemindedly.

----------


## oasis1313

> I am strange because I love the November Birthday. I never buy the spring birthday. He was and remains a Scorpio from the Golden Age. He never look like a Aries to me. It’s weird because Chuck Dixon wrote the spring and his mother thing but it’s also him who loved the Robin name being taken without Dicks consent. So no thanks for pretending Robin is this bright happy thing. Dick sure is not right now. The way he fights and persists and is a brother and loses and hurts is pure Scorpio. The real Aries in DC is Garth who fight much more simplemindedly.


I think Scorpio fits Dick.

----------


## Schumiac

Dont know signs that much. I do know Scorpo has a bad name though as being too jealous.

I am an Aries so of course like the idea of Dick being one too. heh

Apparently Aries is supposed to be:
_Strengths: Courageous, determined, confident, enthusiastic, optimistic, honest, passionate

Weaknesses: Impatient, moody, short-tempered, impulsive, aggressive

Aries likes: Comfortable clothes, taking on leadership roles, physical challenges, individual sports

Aries dislikes: Inactivity, delays, work that does not use one's talents

As the first sign in the zodiac, the presence of Aries always marks the beginning of something energetic and turbulent. They are continuously looking for dynamic, speed and competition, always being the first in everything - from work to social gatherings. Thanks to its ruling planet Mars and the fact it belongs to the element of Fire (just like Leo and Sagittarius), Aries is one of the most active zodiac signs. It is in their nature to take action, sometimes before they think about it well.

The Sun in such high dignity gives them excellent organizational skills, so you'll rarely meet an Aries who isn't capable of finishing several things at once, often before lunch break! Their challenges show when they get impatient, aggressive and vent anger pointing it to other people. Strong personalities born under this sign have a task to fight for their goals, embracing togetherness and teamwork through this incarnation.

Aries rules the head and leads with the head, often literally walking head first, leaning forwards for speed and focus. Its representatives are naturally brave and rarely afraid of trial and risk. They possess youthful strength and energy, regardless of their age and quickly perform any given tasks.
_
https://www.astrology-zodiac-signs.c...c-signs/aries/
seems fitting enough for Dick.


Looked at Scorpio...
_Strengths: Resourceful, brave, passionate, stubborn, a true friend

Weaknesses: Distrusting, jealous, secretive, violent

Scorpio likes: Truth, facts, being right, longtime friends, teasing, a grand passion

Scorpio dislikes: Dishonesty, revealing secrets, passive people

Scorpio-born are passionate and assertive people. They are determined and decisive, and will research until they find out the truth. Scorpio is a great leader, always aware of the situation and also features prominently in resourcefulness.

Scorpio is a Water sign and lives to experience and express emotions. Although emotions are very important for Scorpio, they manifest them differently than other water signs. In any case, you can be sure that the Scorpio will keep your secrets, whatever they may be.

Pluto is the planet of transformation and regeneration, and also the ruler of this zodiac sign. Scorpios are known by their calm and cool behavior, and by their mysterious appearance. People often say that Scorpio-born are fierce, probably because they understand very well the rules of the universe. Some Scorpio-born can look older than they actually are. They are excellent leaders because they are very dedicated to what they do. Scorpios hate dishonesty and they can be very jealous and suspicious, so they need to learn how to adapt more easily to different human behaviors. Scorpios are brave and therefore they have a lot of friends._


Can also fit Dick but I lean on Aries. the Jealousy and distrusting bit just doesnt work for Dick at all.



---
and Bruce is anything but a Pisces.. he might be a Capricorn? 

Pisces:
Strengths: Compassionate, artistic, intuitive, gentle, wise, musical

Weaknesses: Fearful, overly trusting, sad, desire to escape reality, can be a victim or a martyr

Pisces likes: Being alone, sleeping, music, romance, visual media, swimming, spiritual themes

Pisces dislikes: Know-it-all, being criticized, the past coming back to haunt, cruelty of any kind

Pisces are very friendly, so they often find themselves in a company of very different people. Pisces are selfless, they are always willing to help others, without hoping to get anything back.

Pisces is a Water sign and as such this zodiac sign is characterized by empathy and expressed emotional capacity. (ahahahahahaha)


vs

Capricorn
Strengths: Responsible, disciplined, self-control, good managers

Weaknesses: Know-it-all, unforgiving, condescending, expecting the worst

Capricorn likes: Family, tradition, music, understated status, quality craftsmanship

Capricorn dislikes: Almost everything at some point

Capricorn is a sign that represents time and responsibility, and its representatives are traditional and often very serious by nature. These individuals possess an inner state of independence that enables significant progress both in their personal and professional lives. They are masters of self-control and have the ability to lead the way, make solid and realistic plans, and manage many people who work for them at any time. They will learn from their mistakes and get to the top based solely on their experience and expertise.

Belonging to the element of Earth , like Taurus and Virgo, this is the last sign in the trio of practicality and grounding. Not only do they focus on the material world, but they have the ability to use the most out of it. Unfortunately, this element also makes them stiff and sometimes too stubborn to move from one perspective or point in a relationship. They have a hard time accepting differences of other people that are too far from their character, and out of fear might try to impose their traditional values aggressively.

Saturn is the ruling planet of Capricorn, and this planet represents restrictions of all kinds. Its influence makes these people practical and responsible, but also cold, distant and unforgiving, prone to the feeling of guilt and turned to the past. They need to learn to forgive in order to make their own life lighter and more positive. 
https://www.astrology-zodiac-signs.c...gns/capricorn/

----------


## nhienphan2808

A lot of these are the signs at their typical best. Both Bruce and Dick spent lots of their entire 80 years history being at their worse. Bruce was written as a Taurus in the Golden age and just like Dick I don’t think he’s ever written differently until the 2000s. And there’s a lot more to astrologys typing than birthdays which would take long to explain. Also for Aries in action , prefer to Garth. I think you will realise the difference, although they are alike enough that he’s called the Dick Grayson of the aquafam. They are different expressions of Mars. Also it’s mosly my distaste for Chuck Dixon s retcons that make Dicks origin get worse the more he wrote and disrespects his own beautiful spring origin.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b33/1903/b8/d0267359362e.jpg[/IMG]

Ugh. Its like Im reading some badly written fanfic with beautiful art.

----------


## Drako

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b33/1903/b8/d0267359362e.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Ugh. It’s like I’m reading some badly written fanfic with beautiful art.


I hate this scene. In the same page they had Babs saying some meta bullshit like "If i gave you a chance before judging you i would knew you're actually a pretty good guy."

----------


## Hizashi

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b33/1903/b8/d0267359362e.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Ugh. It’s like I’m reading some badly written fanfic with beautiful art.


I finally dropped the book a few weeks ago, but damn if you aren't right. Why give this book the best art it's ever had with the worst narrative it's ever had? I foolishly and naively thought this could go somewhere interesting at the start, but I couldn't have been more wrong.

----------


## Schumiac

It was total BS. Dick would never be proud of a version of himself who is a homeless cabbie who has no intention of doing something useful with his life, thinks gambling and drinking his days off means "living" and will do heroics if someone orders him to all the while complaining about how stupid it is to be a hero... And will be an ass to all the people he knows to have been his friend and family simply because he doesn't remember them and they dare want him to try and get better...

The only "plus" was the fact he called Barbara "Babs". and that is because I am holding onto the hope that is there on purpose to show he is regaining his memory slowly. Because in the past they made sure to show us he refused to call her Babs despite the fact she told him to, on the basis he didn't remember that, and kept calling her Barbara... But I may be giving the writers way too much credit on this. Or he is simply being "nice" and calling her what she wants to be called, now that she gave him a compliment. Which kind of makes his even more of a prick previously...

----------


## Godlike13

Babs was an audience surrogate with her point of view on Ric, so ya that scene was utter insulting bullshit by the writers. One thing I hate is being written down to and talked to by writers like that. They are clearly not convincing people through their stories and work with Ric so they basically resorted to just telling us that we’re not being fair and should give Ric a chance. Really just shows the caliber of creators we’re dealing with on this run.

----------


## Ascended

Eh, Im not bothered. I mean, the fandom was against this from the start, long before the first issue hit. We judged this story before we had even read it. I think the writers have a fair retort here; we're talking sh*t about something and a lot of us haven't even read it. I know I haven't. So what really gives me the right to judge the work? And if I did check it out it's always possible that its not as bad as I've thought it was.

However, the problem there is that we've got previews and detailed reviews to read, and that's enough for us to make a relatively informed decision about whether we spend money on it. We've flipped through the issues at the LCS, followed the story, talked to people who are reading. We don't need to give Ric a chance because even without reading it, we're able to know enough to know whether it'll appeal to us.

Still. We are utterly, ruthlessly, cruelly unfair to creators. We're entitled and possessive of characters we have no claim to. We take things we dislike personally and we blame the creators for almost everything, when the business reality is certainly far more complex. They're entitled to take a shot back at us every once in a while, as long as they keep it professional.

----------


## L.H.

Speaking for myself, I'm still reading "NightwingS". 
I gave the writers all the trust I could and, sometimes, something seemed interesting. 
That's not the point. The point is that there Is no story to talk about. They're wasting time and issues just giving us the same  no story and bad dialogues. Nothing Is going forward, it's like be locked at home, waiting for your mother to came back and open the door. We know we have to wait for something, but why give us this crap and no something better?
Something that happened before the shot, or old stories like Nightwing Year One, or flashback stories from his friends and family memories. Instead, we are stucked here, with the "cabbie".
You know, even having those NightwingS running around Bludhaven whit Dick still in coma would have been better, IMHO

----------


## Schumiac

> Speaking for myself, I'm still reading "NightwingS". 
> I gave the writers all the trust I could and, sometimes, something seemed interesting. 
> That's not the point. The point is that there Is no story to talk about. They're wasting time and issues just giving us the same  no story and bad dialogues. Nothing Is going forward, it's like be locked at home, waiting for your mother to came back and open the door. We know we have to wait for something, but why give us this crap and no something better?
> Something that happened before the shot, or old stories like Nightwing Year One, or flashback stories from his friends and family memories. Instead, we are stucked here, with the "cabbie".
> You know, even having those NightwingS running around Bludhaven whit Dick still in coma would have been better, IMHO


This... I AM reading the damn thing. I give it a try. I even understand that the writers are forced into writing something they don't want, a character they aren't interested in, who had a terrible thing done to him and is left a shell of who he was -esp as far as "superheroics" go- which is also not something THEY did but someone else did. So they have my sympathy and understanding in those parts. But I will NOT excuse them for delivering such low quality crap every single issue. For not even making an effort to write something semi-decent. We all have had to do things we don't necessarily want or enjoy in our lives. You just roll with the punches and try to do your best. And you do NOT turn a character's own solo into a place where issue after issue you talk about how crazy he is and how he sucked and how he didn't make sense and how some forgettable character of their creation who made a generic political speech is 100 times more heroic and powerful than he ever was blah blah blah. It is disrespectful to the character and to the fans, the people they are trying to sell the book to. So, yeah, they don't get to complain to the fans. Show me good faith, try to do your best with what you have, show a minimum amount of respect and care for the character you have been entrusted with and if I am still nitpicking, you can call me out on that. But not when you are failing this badly.

You know, 8 issues in, if your most inspired moment is a dig you take at the readers for complaining about the current storyline, you are absolutely not doing your job well.

----------


## Godlike13

> Eh, Im not bothered. I mean, the fandom was against this from the start, long before the first issue hit. We judged this story before we had even read it. I think the writers have a fair retort here; we're talking sh*t about something and a lot of us haven't even read it. I know I haven't. So what really gives me the right to judge the work? And if I did check it out it's always possible that its not as bad as I've thought it was.
> 
> However, the problem there is that we've got previews and detailed reviews to read, and that's enough for us to make a relatively informed decision about whether we spend money on it. We've flipped through the issues at the LCS, followed the story, talked to people who are reading. We don't need to give Ric a chance because even without reading it, we're able to know enough to know whether it'll appeal to us.
> 
> Still. We are utterly, ruthlessly, cruelly unfair to creators. We're entitled and possessive of characters we have no claim to. We take things we dislike personally and we blame the creators for almost everything, when the business reality is certainly far more complex. They're entitled to take a shot back at us every once in a while, as long as they keep it professional.


Except this is 8 issues in. Readers reading those lines are giving Ric a chance. Trying to shift things to readers not giving Ric a chance at this point is lazy, cowardly, ingenious bull crap. Lazy creators not wanting to not take responsibility for what they have failed to accomplish after 8 issues through the work. They are well into Ric now. Nightwing readers were blindsided by Ric, and then further blindsided by the last minute creators shifts. And all they have done since is close their eyes, cover their ears, and push on regardless. And now these writers want to put it on Nightwing’s readers as not being fair before these writers leave. That’s totale insensitive bull crap. 

And this goes back to one of the problems with this run to begin with, a lack of understanding who their audience even was or is with Ric. All they have had Ric do is take shots at Dick. The character readers were following. Of course Nightwing readers are gonna be apprehensive and abrasive when they are following the the book and character for 50 issues, only to have new creators come in have the character now repeatedly tell us how stupid that character that we have been following actually was. All while they do nothing but waste time. 
So no they don’t have the right to take shots back at us. They know just as well as we do that is far from an ideal or fair situation. They screwed Nightwing readers, failed to convince them with Ric and what they came up with last minute, and now want to takes shots and shift fault on to readers before they, the current creators on Ric, leave. That’s so wrong.

----------


## Badou

I've read every issue. I just don't pay for it anymore. I don't feel DC deserves any money for the product they are releasing because of how insulting it is to the readers that had been paying money for the title. There is just a complete lack of effort put into the story and I don't think they should be rewarded for it. 

As for the Babs panel it was just Lobdell trying to shove in some shit about how readers should have given "Ric" a chance and he wasn't bad while using Babs as a mouthpiece like Godlike said. Having a character people like in Babs give her "approval" of Ric comes off as just forced. The issue is that Lobdell can't even be bothered to script the issues himself and had someone else basically co-write the series with him. We are supposed to feel some emotional connection to Ric in that he for once isn't completely bitching about who Dick Grayson was, but at the same time a writer like Lobdell can't be bothered to finish issues himself or do anything interesting with the concept? Fuck off. 

All he did was have Ric complain about the same things constantly, repeat the same monologues over and over, and then dragged in Joker's Daughter into this because no one at DC cared what he did with this series and got to bring back a character he liked but fans hated probably just to mess with them. He was a disaster on this series and while not the sole reason he is still a big reason the book got ran into the ground. You can like Lobdell's other work but he was a mess on this book, and him wagging his finger at the readers here by trying to say how good Ric actually was is just so forced. If he was actually clever he should have got meta about how shit Ric is and try and write the book being in on the "joke" of a direction this is and then just do dumb fun crap, but that would require effort and there was none put into this book.

----------


## oasis1313

> Eh, Im not bothered. I mean, the fandom was against this from the start, long before the first issue hit. We judged this story before we had even read it. I think the writers have a fair retort here; we're talking sh*t about something and a lot of us haven't even read it. I know I haven't. So what really gives me the right to judge the work? And if I did check it out it's always possible that its not as bad as I've thought it was.
> 
> However, the problem there is that we've got previews and detailed reviews to read, and that's enough for us to make a relatively informed decision about whether we spend money on it. We've flipped through the issues at the LCS, followed the story, talked to people who are reading. We don't need to give Ric a chance because even without reading it, we're able to know enough to know whether it'll appeal to us.
> 
> Still. We are utterly, ruthlessly, cruelly unfair to creators. We're entitled and possessive of characters we have no claim to. We take things we dislike personally and we blame the creators for almost everything, when the business reality is certainly far more complex. They're entitled to take a shot back at us every once in a while, as long as they keep it professional.


"The customer is always right," comes to mind.  We've ALL read the non-adventures of Ric, and many of us really tried to give it a break--even I tried to defend it and the posts are still back there to prove it.  It would have been better to leave Dick in a coma and place a panel or two in several Bat-Family books where they occasionally turn up at the nursing home and think about how this could happen to ANY of them at ANY time so why are they all doing the Spandex thang--or even better, stick him in a back bedroom in Wayne Manor and let the Family have the harsh reality of their lifestyle lying right there in their faces, like a Real Family would.  How many of us have sat through deathbed vigils, accident aftermaths, cancer chemotherapy?  It would cause endless turmoil.  Or "Why him and not me?" Any number of questions, guilt, grief, etc etc etc.  It would be a gold-mine of angst for all of them.

----------


## nightbird

> I finally dropped the book a few weeks ago, but damn if you aren't right. Why give this book the best art it's ever had with the worst narrative it's ever had? I foolishly and naively thought this could go somewhere interesting at the start, but I couldn't have been more wrong.


Tell me about that. They’re not only wasting Travis Moore’s art, but also story potential. Okay, they needed to give Dick amnesia, okay they wanted Ric to be born out of that mess they created... But it’s so frustrating to see, that out of all possibilities they decided to go with  most laziest, most unimaginative and uninspiring writing ever for the character. There is no emotional value in Ric’s stories, when we could get some real tear-jerking and inspiring moments.

----------


## Hizashi

> Tell me about that. They’re not only wasting Travis Moore’s art, but also story potential. Okay, they needed to give Dick amnesia, okay they wanted Ric to be born out of that mess they created... But it’s so frustrating to see, that out of all possibilities they decided to go with  most laziest, most unimaginative and uninspiring writing ever for the character. There is no emotional value in Ric’s stories, when we could get some real tear-jerking and inspiring moments.


Yep, exactly. Many of us are still reading it, I just couldn't justify spending the money on the book anymore. And you're right, there was story potential here, amnesia plots are cliche/tropes for a reason, they're effective shortcuts for other stories.

And that Travis Moore art - I hope he sticks around whenever Dick comes back properly.

----------


## oasis1313

Is the regular artist supposed to be Moore or Mooneyham?  It looks like Mooneyham took his inspiration from Klaus Jansen but he hasn't got that special genius that belongs only to Klaus.

----------


## Ascended

> "The customer is always right," comes to mind.


Ha!  :Smile:  The only people who believe that are customers. 

Not even Burger King believed it when they (I believe?) coined the term.

----------


## Rac7d*

can someone tell me where solo nightwing begins after he leaves the new titans

----------


## oasis1313

> Ha!  The only people who believe that are customers. 
> 
> Not even Burger King believed it when they (I believe?) coined the term.


That adage came along long before Burger King.  A good business wants repeat business. It wants the customers happy and telling their friends what a good place they are to do business with.  As long as the customer isn't asking for something impossible or illegal, they should be respected.  If you went into a drugstore and said, "I don't have a prescription but I want a hundred Oxycontins and I want them for free"--there is no way to make that customer happy--at that point, the folks behind the counter won't consider you a legitimate "customer" but a likely threat.  However, if you go to an Armani store with a platinum credit card and buy a suit, they'll make sure you're fitted out like a million--they are not going to mock you to your face and tell you they can't get you into a nice business suit because you're ugly and it's all your fault that you're ugly.   These are just examples, but even a mere comic book fan has the right to be respected and be satisfied with their purchase.

----------


## Vinsanity

> That adage came along long before Burger King.  A good business wants repeat business. It wants the customers happy and telling their friends what a good place they are to do business with.  As long as the customer isn't asking for something impossible or illegal, they should be respected.  If you went into a drugstore and said, "I don't have a prescription but I want a hundred Oxycontins and I want them for free"--there is no way to make that customer happy--at that point, the folks behind the counter won't consider you a legitimate "customer" but a likely threat.  However, if you go to an Armani store with a platinum credit card and buy a suit, they'll make sure you're fitted out like a million--they are not going to mock you to your face and tell you they can't get you into a nice business suit because you're ugly and it's all your fault that you're ugly.   These are just examples, but even a mere comic book fan has the right to be respected and be satisfied with their purchase.


Wait you're telling me I can't go into a drugstore and do that? Well, there goes my Tuesday night.

----------


## Ascended

> even a mere comic book fan has the right to be respected and be satisfied with their purchase.


Oh absolutely. But you can respect the customer and build a solid relationship built on brand trust and take good care of them without telling them they're right about everything. Dont mind me; I spent years managing a restaurant frequented by the rich and influential and it taught me that customers are more like children; you have to hold their hand and walk them through the experience. You gotta be polite, patient, and respectful, sure, but if you start with the "yes, of course you're right" you'll drown under the weight of people who dont know how to cook telling you how to prepare a medium-rare steak.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I mean hey, a lot of us fans were very much against the idea of Grayson, before the story began. We were far from right about that, and if DC had listened to us we wouldn't have gotten one of the best runs Dick has seen in thirty years, right?

And was that saying around before Burger King? I could swear I remember reading that they're the ones who coined it. Or at least popularized it. Eh, who knows? I've got so much random business information rattling around my head sometimes it glitches out.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dropkickjake

I believe their slogan was "Have it your way."

And there has to be a balance, sure. Remember that Grayson ended because of part of the fandom being pissy about it. (Weird to cancel a critical darling for fan outcry but not this train wreck. I havent read any glowing reviews of it either.) DC, or comics in general, shouldnt just cave to fan demand; that would cause stagnation. On the other hand though, the clear audience surrogate and thinly veiled insults to the reader are a new low. I never managed a restaurant, but I served for a few years. The customer was wrong plenty of times, but we still fired servers who were passive aggressive or insulting to our guests. (Once a server chased a customer out to the parking lot to confrontationally return a tip she considered insulting. Yeah, so she was fired...)

----------


## Godlike13

This is not Grayson though, nor is this even about catering to fan demand. This is a bullshit situation, with last minute creator shifts, uninvested mercenary creators, and blatantly regurgitated ideas. It would be wrong for a restaurant to serve food they know is sub par and unfair to their consumer. But that is exactly what DC is doing with Ric. The practice displayed by the managers, creators, and editors on Nightwing has been gross. And now the last minute writers, be it the plotter who can't manage to actually fully write this, or the guy doing the scripts for this week, want to shift it onto fans for being unfair to it on their way out. This is wrong, and just obvious bad practice. The people responsible for the Nightwing book truly should be ashamed of themselves.

----------


## oasis1313

[QUOTE=Ascended;4271377] I mean hey, a lot of us fans were very much against the idea of Grayson, before the story began. We were far from right about that, and if DC had listened to us we wouldn't have gotten one of the best runs Dick has seen in thirty years, right? [QUOTE]

I had no objections to Grayson; I gave it a chance, as I have Ric.  As an earlier poster said, there was a plan and a method in place then.  Now it's just Dick Grayson being exiled from his own title because Didio doesn't want him used; Dick is effectively dead.  I don't believe that "Grayson" ended because some fans were being pissy about it--I believe it ended because Didio wanted the King/Janin team over on the more high-profile Batman book.  If they were going to end a book just on customer unhappiness, Ric wouldn't last this long--particularly with no end in sight.  Again, blaming poor management decisions on the customers.  Ascended noted that in business, you have to build a solid relationship on a customer based on brand trust--on what basis can we trust DC to do what is best for the character (which is all we want)?

----------


## astro@work

> This is not Grayson though, nor is this even about catering to fan demand. This is a bullshit situation, with last minute creator shifts, uninvested mercenary creators, and blatantly regurgitated ideas. It would be wrong for a restaurant to serve food they know is sub par and unfair to their consumer. But that is exactly what DC is doing with Ric. The practice displayed by the managers, creators, and editors on Nightwing has been gross. And now the last minute writers, be it the plotter who can't manage to actually fully write this, or the guy doing the scripts for this week, want to shift it onto fans for being unfair to it on their way out. This is wrong, and just obvious bad practice. The people responsible for the Nightwing book truly should be ashamed of themselves.


Agree. In the case of Grayson, I was leery going in and ended up loving it. The solid writing and characterization sold me in a hurry.
In the case of "Ric" -Nightwing, I went in open minded and have hated it after trying several issues. Biggest complaints: lack of characterization. I have no investment in any of the substitute Nightwings, and "Ric" himself just doesn't bear any resemblance to the Dick I knew.

Blaming it on the fans is a cop out. I don't hate it because I didn't buy it. I hate it because I DID buy it, and after six issues was compelled to stop so DC didn't mistakenly think I liked anything about it. And I'm a die hard completist...I've bought every run of Titans (including the Jaaska years and the "Epsilon" run), all three "boots" of the Legion, Bart-as-Flash run of the Flash... but it's a big nope for Ric. I don't need an Nightwing ongoing about non-Dick non-Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I believe their slogan was "Have it your way."
> 
> And there has to be a balance, sure. Remember that Grayson ended because of part of the fandom being pissy about it. (Weird to cancel a critical darling for fan outcry but not this train wreck. I havent read any glowing reviews of it either.) DC, or comics in general, shouldnt just cave to fan demand; that would cause stagnation. On the other hand though, the clear audience surrogate and thinly veiled insults to the reader are a new low. I never managed a restaurant, but I served for a few years. The customer was wrong plenty of times, but we still fired servers who were passive aggressive or insulting to our guests. (Once a server chased a customer out to the parking lot to confrontationally return a tip she considered insulting. Yeah, so she was fired...)


The return to Nightwing from Grayson is inevitable. The only question was when. The success of Grayson's initial story arc delay it (TimTom wrote by arcs just in case it got canned) but once DC decided on Rebirth, it's on. I doubt they even pay attention to the outcry. They were busy with bigger things, like losing market share to 25% that leads to Rebirth. 

However, this time, there is no Rebirth 2.0 to return Nightwing from Ric. All the other important books like Batman, Superman, Justice League and Heroes in Crisis are pretty successful. So whether Nightwing succeed or not doesn't matter.

----------


## Godlike13

Plus at the end of the day with Grayson the creators on it put in the work to make that the best book they could. They didn’t lazily regurgitated recently failed ideas or make the character they were selling look like dog shit, and then try to tell readers it’s their fault for not giving it a chance.

I defended shooting Dick in the head at first too, it wasn’t till they switch everything and then I read it that I turned on it. I still think Ric could have at least been a decent story. But instead they turned its into a rip off We Are Robin, and took every lazy and uninspired road with Ric. With the added bonus of having him insult himself, the characters the readers were following for 50 issues, over and over with generic real world sensibilities bullshit. Oh how unhealthy is it to grow up in a cave, oh F off.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, I hate it and don't buy it, because it's not the story that made me mad, but the idea that someone is allowed to just determine the fate of a main character from a series he didn't even write. Everything else I saw after that merely confirms how bad of an idea it was.

----------


## oasis1313

> The return to Nightwing from Grayson is inevitable. The only question was when. The success of Grayson's initial story arc delay it (TimTom wrote by arcs just in case it got canned) but once DC decided on Rebirth, it's on. I doubt they even pay attention to the outcry. They were busy with bigger things, like losing market share to 25% that leads to Rebirth. 
> 
> However, this time, there is no Rebirth 2.0 to return Nightwing from Ric. All the other important books like Batman, Superman, Justice League and Heroes in Crisis are pretty successful. So whether Nightwing succeed or not doesn't matter.


Doesn't feel inevitable at the moment.  Feels dismal.  We want more for DC's IP than they do.

----------


## dropkickjake

So I only brought up Grayson as an example of how "the customer is always right" isn't always true. I loved the book.





> The return to Nightwing from Grayson is inevitable. The only question was when. The success of Grayson's initial story arc delay it (TimTom wrote by arcs just in case it got canned) but once DC decided on Rebirth, it's on. I doubt they even pay attention to the outcry. They were busy with bigger things, like losing market share to 25% that leads to Rebirth. 
> 
> However, this time, there is no Rebirth 2.0 to return Nightwing from Ric. All the other important books like Batman, Superman, Justice League and Heroes in Crisis are pretty successful. So whether Nightwing succeed or not doesn't matter.


This gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly just don't accept it. The return to Nightwing, in the sense of him being a costumed vigilante only, was not inevitable. His return to Robin wasn't inevitable when he became Nightwing, was it? 

And I believe that Tim himself made some comments about how frustrating it was that he couldn't tell the Grayson stories he wanted to tell anymore because people just wanted to read the same old stuff. That sounds like fan outcry was certainly taken into account.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So I only brought up Grayson as an example of how "the customer is always right" isn't always true. I loved the book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly just don't accept it. The return to Nightwing, in the sense of him being a costumed vigilante only, was not inevitable. His return to Robin wasn't inevitable when he became Nightwing, was it? 
> 
> And I believe that Tim himself made some comments about how frustrating it was that* he couldn't tell the Grayson stories he wanted to tell anymore* because people just wanted to read the same old stuff. That sounds like fan outcry was certainly taken into account.


thats what alt universes are for

hmm now i feel some sympathy for zack synder

----------


## dropkickjake

> thats what alt universes are for
> 
> hmm now i feel some sympathy for zack synder


Those books don't typically gain the traction that main continuity books do. And having to push new ideas for a character, particularly ideas that are already working well, doesn't solve the problem of stagnation in comics due to fans not accepting new directions.

(again, not defending the current direction.)

----------


## Rac7d*

> Those books don't typically gain the traction that main continuity books do. And having to push new ideas for a character, particularly ideas that are already working well, doesn't solve the problem of stagnation in comics due to fans not accepting new directions.
> 
> (again, not defending the current direction.)


Nightwing the new order did

----------


## Ascended

> So I only brought up Grayson as an example of how "the customer is always right" isn't always true. I loved the book.


That was my original point. The customer matters, obviously, and you want the customer happy and loyal. But that doesnt mean you accept the customers' opinion as informed or expert. A lot of the time, the customer doesn't know what they want until you show it to them.

And Im sorry for bringing it up and derailing the thread. 




> This gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly just don't accept it. The return to Nightwing, in the sense of him being a costumed vigilante only, was not inevitable. His return to Robin wasn't inevitable when he became Nightwing, was it?


I do think Dick returning to the Nightwing persona was inevitable, actually. As a brand name "Grayson" doesn't get the attention "Nightwing" does, and the Nightwing costume is easier to market than the generic (cool, but generic) spy gear. 

The Spyral direction was not inevitably going to go away and I still think it was a mistake to abandon something that was proving to work. But Dick putting on a costume again was gonna happen for business reasons if nothing else, I think.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That was my original point. The customer matters, obviously, and you want the customer happy and loyal. But that doesnt mean you accept the customers' opinion as informed or expert. A lot of the time, the customer doesn't know what they want until you show it to them.
> 
> And Im sorry for bringing it up and derailing the thread. 
> 
> 
> 
> I do think Dick returning to the Nightwing persona was inevitable, actually. As a brand name "Grayson" doesn't get the attention "Nightwing" does, and the Nightwing costume is easier to market than the generic (cool, but generic) spy gear. 
> 
> The Spyral direction was not inevitably going to go away and I still think it was a mistake to abandon something that was proving to work. But Dick putting on a costume again was gonna happen for business reasons if nothing else, I think.


Spyral doesnt really exist without him, Helena presences has all but vanished without birds of prey

----------


## Ascended

Im super bummed that Dick is apparently missing out on the whole Leviathan story in the Super-books. Aside from Clark and his family (it IS a Super event after all) Dick and Bruce are the two people who really, really ought to be there. Bruce because of Talia (obvs) and Dick because of Spyral, which I feel, in a way, gives him a little more skin in the game (though much, much less personal).

----------


## Godlike13

At the very least there’s a tie in opportunity.

----------


## oasis1313

> At the very least there’s a tie in opportunity.


No opportunity.  Dick gets exiled from all big events unless it's to be their sacrificial lamb.

----------


## Pohzee

Peep a certain red and green suit in this Detectics Comics #1000 promo.

https://twitter.com/dccomics/status/...254224384?s=21

----------


## Schumiac

I was happy to see a lingering shot on Nightwing in that promo... Now BRING HIM BACK DC!

----------


## Jackalope89

> I was happy to see a lingering shot on Nightwing in that promo... Now BRING HIM BACK DC!


DC's Response: Which one? The white cop, the old cop, the one who started it...

----------


## Godlike13

Get ready guys, some people are probably not gonna like the Tec 1000 preview.

----------


## oasis1313

Why not?  Ten characters.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Get ready guys, some people are probably not gonna like the Tec 1000 preview.


No! I was just being tongue-in-cheek! I wasn't being serious, I swear!

----------


## oasis1313

> No! I was just being tongue-in-cheek! I wasn't being serious, I swear!


I think everybody on this thread is chewing on nails. :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Pohzee

Little-Dicky-poo hasn't been all there since he got shot in the head.

But seriously god damnit get out of here with this fanfiction bull.

----------


## oasis1313

> Little-Dicky-poo hasn't been all there since he got shot in the head.
> 
> But seriously god damnit get out of here with this fanfiction bull.


No kidding, bro. :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Detective Comics 1000 Batfamily Portrait:

Attachment 80390

----------


## CPSparkles

Enjoyed Tynion's Tec 1000 story which focused on Bruce taking Dick as Robin. It was solid and put some respect on Dick Grayson. The other stories where alright too. King's had a fair bit of Dick and Damian banter [also had plenty of inane banter]. I'm guessing these are not continuity but it was good to see Dick as nightwing

----------


## WallyWestFlash

Some beautiful pages of Dick in todays Tec issue.

RCO069_1553683837.jpg

----------


## dropkickjake

Enjoyed Tynion's and King's stories. I like how King writes Dick and Babs. His Dick/Damian is growing on me. He writes that in way where Damian normally thinks he's right, and Dick is comfortable not arguing the point and letting Damian found out that he, Dick, was right all along.

I'd honestly kill for a book with Dick/Damian/Babs at this point.

----------


## L.H.

Loved Dini's one, Tynion's close second. Priest's one looks like a prologue. Is Batman or Johns a Dick/Kory fan? Why pairing Jason and Babs? 
I can't stand King's writing anymore, and I'm really disappointed: Ace should have ranked higher.
Nice to have Dick back, at least for an issue.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason Bard probably. Anyhoo, the King story had me cracking up.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d14/1903/fe/f9df80195156.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing and Batgirl by Adrian Syaf 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvLIO5sAzGh/

----------


## Badou

> Jason Bard probably. Anyhoo, the King story had me cracking up.


Could be Bard, but Johns is going to write both Jason and Babs in his Three Jokers story, so maybe he is setting something up for that.

----------


## Rac7d*

give your boys some votes
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...ns-vigilantes/

----------


## Drako

Sean Maher will reprise his role as Nightwing in Hush.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/03...oice-cast-news

----------


## Schumiac

> Could be Bard, but Johns is going to write both Jason and Babs in his Three Jokers story, so maybe he is setting something up for that.


Hopefully not... It is icky. and too much like one of those teenage dramas with triangles where brothers fall in love with the same girl blah blah. Besides my understanding of that story was it was *spoilers:*
Bruce's birthday wish dream, not "reality". 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## oasis1313

> Hopefully not... It is icky. and too much like one of those teenage dramas with triangles where brothers fall in love with the same girl blah blah. Besides my understanding of that story was it was *spoilers:*
> Bruce's birthday wish dream, not "reality". 
> *end of spoilers*


We can't trust anything Tynion writes not to be a "love letter to Tim."

----------


## TheCape

> We can't trust anything Tynion writes not to be a "love letter to Tim."


That story was written by Johns. Tim doesn't have anything to do with it, Dick and Jason didn't appear either.

----------


## Digifiend

> Some beautiful pages of Dick in todays Tec issue.
> 
> Attachment 80393


That proves once and for all that both the 1960s and 1980s Teen Titans teams are back in continuity.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a21/1903/2a/199deef82e21.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvQAqCHAHDy/

----------


## Badou

> That proves once and for all that both the 1960s and 1980s Teen Titans teams are back in continuity.


I don't think most of the Detective 1000 stories were part of the main continuity.

----------


## Arsenal

> I don't think most of the Detective 1000 stories were part of the main continuity.


Outside of the AK one, I'm not sure if any of them are supposed to be.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Hopefully not... It is icky. and too much like one of those teenage dramas with triangles where brothers fall in love with the same girl blah blah. Besides my understanding of that story was it was *spoilers:*
> Bruce's birthday wish dream, not "reality". 
> *end of spoilers*


It's low hanging fruit, but I can understand why DC would want to go there. Babs is the hot twenty-something young woman who gets to be the cool vigilante known as Batgirl (that women and girls can identify with) and has Bruce's two hot sons vying for her affections?  The Good Boy and the Bad Boy, both of whom are EXTREMELY popular?

The likelihood of it being executed well is slim to none, and Babs being a love interest to all the bat-boys across various mediums is annoying af, but if I were DC, I'd see the potential (quick, lazy) gold mine there.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's low hanging fruit, but I can understand why DC would want to go there. Babs is the hot twenty-something young woman who gets to be the cool vigilante known as Batgirl (that women and girls can identify with) and has Bruce's two hot sons vying for her affections?  The Good Boy and the Bad Boy, both of whom are EXTREMELY popular?
> 
> The likelihood of it being executed well is slim to none, and Babs being a love interest to all the bat-boys across various mediums is annoying af, but if I were DC, I'd see the potential (quick, lazy) gold mine there.



She'd better NOT set her sights on Damian.

----------


## Arsenal

> She'd better NOT set her sights on Damian.


Before reading this, I didn't think that any potential bat-related romance could be weirder or messier than Dick and Talia. I was clearly mistaken.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Before reading this, I didn't think that any potential bat-related romance could be weirder or messier than Dick and Talia. I was clearly mistaken.


Dick and Talia? _Jason_ and Talia actually happened!

Thankfully it was retconned into oblivion, but still.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Before reading this, I didn't think that any potential bat-related romance could be weirder or messier than Dick and Talia. I was clearly mistaken.



Nah, Damian and Barbara wouldn't be weirder than Barbara and Jason or Barbara and Tim, they would just need to keep deaging her and recreating her and Dick's dynamic, but Dick and Talia? After she killed Damian and without pre existing warm feelings between them, would be a self punishment for both of them, I don't think Dick can get to hate himself that much.

----------


## Arsenal

> Dick and Talia? _Jason_ and Talia actually happened!
> 
> Thankfully it was retconned into oblivion, but still.


Don't get me wrong, both pairing should be avoided and never be a thing (again), I just put Dick and Talia over Jason and Talia because of Dick's relationship with Damian.

----------


## Rac7d*

give your boy some more votes so he can win this
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...s-vigilantes/?

----------


## Godlike13

Man, that’s a Sophie’s choice right there.

----------


## Ascended

> give your boy some more votes so he can win this
> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...s-vigilantes/?


I'm doing my part!

It's against Damian, people. I love that obnoxious little bastard but we can't let him, of all Robins, beat Grayson!

----------


## Robanker

> I'm doing my part!
> 
> It's against Damian, people. I love that obnoxious little bastard but we can't let him, of all Robins, beat Grayson!


Take solace in the fact that Damian, like the once golden boy Tim Drake, will one day be ousted by the new model. Dick, being the original, is kind of evergreen. More than the others, he'll always be important.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm doing my part!
> 
> It's against Damian, people. I love that obnoxious little bastard but we can't let him, of all Robins, beat Grayson!


I didnt expect him to make it so far, somtimes i see a lot of hate for him but it seems to stem mostly from angry Tim fans
Damian really is the robin of now he just needs to get back on terms with bruce, I wonder how Dicks/absence is affecting that

----------


## byrd156

> I don't think most of the Detective 1000 stories were part of the main continuity.


DC let me have this. That one page of Dick/Starfire and the Fab Five in their classic outfits was incredible.

----------


## Rac7d*

Im surprised Dick not being a mechanic rather then a cab driver as rick
dude was such a grease monkey

----------


## oasis1313

Babs is sooooooooo bossy.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I feel my blood boil at everything Devin Grayson writes ever.

----------


## Konja7

> DC let me have this. That one page of Dick/Starfire and the Fab Five in their classic outfits was incredible.



DC answer in Deathstroke #42: NO

----------


## Jackalope89

> give your boy some more votes so he can win this
> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...s-vigilantes/?


How did Deathstroke get past Jason? And, if Slade even really a member of the Bat mythos? Titans, yes. But the Bats?

----------


## Pohzee

> How did Deathstroke get past Jason? And, if Slade even really a member of the Bat mythos? Titans, yes. But the Bats?


Batman's bracket wasn't Batfam members, it was largely street level and non-meta heroes, hence the inclusion of Mr. Terrific, Green Arrow, and Katanna. Though that still does beg the question as to why Slade is here given that he's a meta. I suppose he has metahuman abilities but not superhuman powers.

----------


## Badou

I'm annoyed that they have "protector of Bludhaven" in Nightwing's description on that poll, lol. Almost made me want to vote for Deathstroke.

----------


## Rac7d*

give him that last push
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...s-vigilantes/?

----------


## Godlike13

Hmm, Nightwing vs Deathstoke. Take note DC.

BTW Green Arrow beat Batgirl. WTF...

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Hmm, Nightwing vs Deathstoke. Take note DC.
> 
> BTW Green Arrow beat Batgirl. WTF...


I can see that happening

----------


## Badou

> Hmm, Nightwing vs Deathstoke. Take note DC.
> 
> BTW Green Arrow beat Batgirl. WTF...


When was the last Dick vs Deathstroke story that was built around that?

Clearly DC has been trying to push Batman as more his opponent now for 10+ years and Priest loves the Damian vs Deathstroke thing.

----------


## yohyoi

Wooh 100!

Damian isn't even challenging Slade. Every time they meet Damian panics and Slade plays him the whole arc. The Lazarus, the fake daddy and now the prison mentor arcs hasn't helped Damian at all. Reminds me of Deathstroke and Beast Boy in the 80's era. Damian is Slade's modern Beast Boy.

----------


## Godlike13

> When was the last Dick vs Deathstroke story that was built around that?
> 
> Clearly DC has been trying to push Batman as more his opponent now for 10+ years and Priest loves the Damian vs Deathstroke thing.


The point isn’t about what DC wants.

----------


## oasis1313

> Priest loves the Damian vs Deathstroke thing.


Why?  Ten characters.

----------


## king81992

> Why?  Ten characters.


I get the impression that Priest thinks that Damian would work better as a villain.

----------


## dietrich

> I get the impression that Priest thinks that Damian would work better as a villain.


You know what happens when you *ASS U ME*

http://lamerciepark.com/wp/ 

If you care to find out the man's views on Damian [in his own words].

Priest likes grey or rough characters with edge that doesn't mean villain.

----------


## Arsenal

> How did Deathstroke get past Jason? And, if Slade even really a member of the Bat mythos? Titans, yes. But the Bats?


I was hoping it’d go the other way but Deathstroke winning was the outcome I expected. I once I saw the bracket I assumed him or Dick we’re gonna be the winners.

----------


## Badou

> Why?  Ten characters.


He loves the idea of Deathstroke being a mentor of sorts to Damian. He likes grey characters and feels that the two are very similar and is obsessed with the two interacting. I think he has written 4-5 different stories with the two of them since Rebirth started. 

He even wrote that story about Deathstroke banging Talia in the past just so he could try and have the drama around Damian possibly being his son and not Batman's even though no one thought it was going to lead to anything.

----------


## oasis1313

People often the miss the ENTIRE point of Deathstroke.  For me, the whole thing was when he told the HIVE, "You paid Grant to kill the Titans.  Now give me that money."  He's all about the cash.

----------


## dietrich

On Deathstroke, I like the casting choice for him on Titans Season 2

----------


## WallyWestFlash

Screenshot_2019-03-31-08-09-34.jpg

Eh. I never liked Winnick either.

----------


## CPSparkles

DickBats and Robin

----------


## CPSparkles

> Screenshot_2019-03-31-08-09-34.jpg
> 
> Eh. I never liked Winnick either.


At a movie premier and that's what they're thinking and screaming? Or was Dan getting booed prompting Winnick to wade in to lessen the heat?

----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/marcio_takara

----------


## nightbird

> Screenshot_2019-03-31-08-09-34.jpg
> 
> Eh. I never liked Winnick either.


Look at them being proud over what they tried to accomplish -___-

----------


## Schumiac

It is annoying BUT they seem to be well aware of the backlash that has created and how they are hated for it. It has left a mark. So there is that, I guess...

----------


## redmax99

> At a movie premier and that's what they're thinking and screaming? Or was Dan getting booed prompting Winnick to wade in to lessen the heat?


i think its both because dan get blame for everything yet he's co-publisher

----------


## Rakiduam

> Look at them being proud over what they tried to accomplish -___-


Makes them seem pathetic and petty, but it's nothing new and there's nothing to do about it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Makes them seem pathetic and petty, but it's nothing new and there's nothing to do about it.


What'd Winnick have to do with anything, besides getting drunk at a movie premier and thinking it's cute to brag?  They can gloat all they want:  Karma is a bitch and it's always waiting in the wings.

----------


## Ascended

> Screenshot_2019-03-31-08-09-34.jpg
> 
> Eh. I never liked Winnick either.


Sorry Dan, you've got the authority to green light stupid ass decisions like that. Winnick can't make that story happen. Dan can. Dan still gets the blame. All this says is that other professionals (at least one guy anyway) thought there was a benefit to Nightwing's death. I'm sure if you ask around enough you'll find a professional who will back up nearly any stupid ass opinion. 

Dan, if you're at a big movie premiere and you're talking about how you've damaged Nightwing.....maybe its time to stop trying to screw Nightwing over. Recognize that he's got a strong following and hire people who like him to take care of him. Then, with that burden off your conscience and a cornerstone DC character safe from your "ideas," go enjoy the movie man!

----------


## Godlike13

It’d maybe be funny if Dick wasn’t a lame hobo right now with a fan base that is miserable. Not that anyone at DC gives a crap about that. Which is why Ric is a thing in the first place, and continues to be be a thing half a year later.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Maybe I'm late to the party, but I loved Tynion's The Precedent in #1000. That's the Batman and Robin stuff I crave, and that's the stuff I would've wanted for the whole issue, but I guess Batman is just a very solitary character to people now. It's sad, honestly. I really didn't care about the rest of the book, aside from how bad some of the dialogue in King's story was. The way he wrote the women in that story was appalling.

Aside from that, and I'm assuming it's been brought up already, but we did find out YJO is back on July 2nd, which is great, and that Titans S2 is coming this fall. After watching Doom Patrol, I'm hoping Titans steps up and has similar production values, because DP is maybe the best superhero show I've seen. All the new characters that have been cast are awesome and I'm excited to see how they'll all play with and into the core group in Titans. And also hoping we get some sort of crossover with DP again, because I really want to see that whole cast interact with Gar for one, and I'd like to see Vic and Dick hang out given how similar and different their arcs are right now. Back to YJO, we just have to wait until July for good Dick Grayson content. It's a long wait, but not that long.

----------


## Frontier

> Sean Maher will reprise his role as Nightwing in Hush.
> 
> https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/03...oice-cast-news


He's also wearing his _Judas Contract_ suit, just colored Nightwing blue:

----------


## Ascended

Got a question for those of you who're into the animated movies.

I've only watched a couple of the newer animated DC films. But from the clips that drift across my Youtube it seems like Nightwing is in a lot of them. Is that a fair assessment? How is he treated in them?

----------


## Pohzee

King *almost* passed the Bechdel Test in 'Tec 1000.



> Got a question for those of you who're into the animated movies.
> 
> I've only watched a couple of the newer animated DC films. But from the clips that drift across my Youtube it seems like Nightwing is in a lot of them. Is that a fair assessment? How is he treated in them?


He's in them and he's portrayed competently from what I've see (minus his first intro with Damian) but the movies are so appalling bad that there's no reason to watch them, Dick fan or not.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Got a question for those of you who're into the animated movies.
> 
> I've only watched a couple of the newer animated DC films. But from the clips that drift across my Youtube it seems like Nightwing is in a lot of them. Is that a fair assessment? How is he treated in them?


Bout the same. As the comics

----------


## nightbird

> Got a question for those of you who're into the animated movies.
> 
> I've only watched a couple of the newer animated DC films. But from the clips that drift across my Youtube it seems like Nightwing is in a lot of them. Is that a fair assessment? How is he treated in them?


 He usually ends up with broken limb in them lol

----------


## Badou

> Got a question for those of you who're into the animated movies.
> 
> I've only watched a couple of the newer animated DC films. But from the clips that drift across my Youtube it seems like Nightwing is in a lot of them. Is that a fair assessment? How is he treated in them?


I haven't seen all of them, but the ones I have seen I think he is kind of mediocre in them. The movies aren't very good and he isn't great in them. Not that they threat him badly all the time, just some of the time, but it is a completely forgettable version of the character. There is nothing noteworthy about it. 

It is sad how badly they botched the story of him becoming Batman in one of them. It was a mess.

----------


## WonderNight

> Bout the same. As the comics


yeah nightwing is just the "senior sidekick"  in the movies, so same as the comics.

----------


## Frontier

> I've only watched a couple of the newer animated DC films. But from the clips that drift across my Youtube it seems like Nightwing is in a lot of them. Is that a fair assessment? How is he treated in them?


He's appeared in all three (now four) in-continuity Batman movies and in the _Judas Contract_ animated movie.

I think they use him reasonably well to solidly. His characterization is pretty on-point with most versions of Dick and, while he kind of gets beat up a lot (though I think he gets some good action scenes in-spite of that), his importance to Batman and the Titans is still emphasized. 



> He's in them and he's portrayed competently from what I've see (minus his first intro with Damian) but the movies are so appalling bad that there's no reason to watch them, Dick fan or not.


I'd say the in-continuity films have improved a lot from how they started out.
_
Judas Contract_ and the _Death/Reign_ movies were pretty great in my opinion. 



> It is sad how badly they botched the story of him becoming Batman in one of them. It was a mess.


I don't know if I'd say "botched." 

It definitely wasn't Morrison's story with Dick as Batman, or treated like it, but I don't think Dick came out looking bad out of it. It was still basically his movie/story. 

Conversely I thought _Judas Contract_ used him very well. 



> yeah nightwing is just the "senior sidekick"  in the movies, so same as the comics.


He's "senior sidekick" in the Batman movies, not so much the Titans movies. 

But I guess that is pretty true to the comics  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## oasis1313

I take whatever positive I can get.

----------


## Ascended

Thanks for the responses folks. Looks like I'll continue ignoring the animated movies then. Just as well, I'm not much of a cartoon guy; it takes some serious YJ-like quality to get me into them. 

Glad to hear Dick's not totally abused but it doesn't sound like he's treated well enough for me to buy them just for a Nightwing fix.

The Death-Return of Superman does look pretty fun though, from the clips I've seen.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Thanks for the responses folks. Looks like I'll continue ignoring the animated movies then. Just as well, I'm not much of a cartoon guy; it takes some serious YJ-like quality to get me into them. 
> 
> Glad to hear Dick's not totally abused but it doesn't sound like he's treated well enough for me to buy them just for a Nightwing fix.
> 
> The Death-Return of Superman does look pretty fun though, from the clips I've seen.


No Dick in them, but yeah. The Superman films were pretty good. Unless you're a Super/Wonder shipper that is. But for cramming a couple of full on story arcs into a couple of films, they are good.

----------


## Frontier

> Thanks for the responses folks. Looks like I'll continue ignoring the animated movies then. Just as well, I'm not much of a cartoon guy; it takes some serious YJ-like quality to get me into them. 
> 
> Glad to hear Dick's not totally abused but it doesn't sound like he's treated well enough for me to buy them just for a Nightwing fix.
> 
> The Death-Return of Superman does look pretty fun though, from the clips I've seen.


If you just care about Dick, then I'd watch the _Judas Contract_ animated film.

----------


## Badou

> I don't know if I'd say "botched." 
> 
> It definitely wasn't Morrison's story with Dick as Batman, or treated like it, but I don't think Dick came out looking bad out of it. It was still basically his movie/story. 
> 
> Conversely I thought _Judas Contract_ used him very well.


I didn't think Judas Contract wasn't very good and that Bad Blood was a complete mess. Bad Blood was Dick's first time "leading" his own animated movie and and it was completely forgettable. I don't think he came off very well in it or even felt like his movie when it was supposed to be. I mean for it to be Dick's first time leading a movie no one talks about it. They had to cram in a bunch of other heroes like Luke Fox and Batwoman in the movie and I felt they completely messed up the transition to Batman. I know it wasn't going to be based on Morrison's story but the movie treated such an important transition as an afterthought and Bruce was gone for line a min it felt like.

----------


## Rac7d*

Nightwing will return on April 9th to defend his title in the final match-up.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing will return on April 9th to defend his title in the final match-up.


Congrats and hugs to Nightwing!!!!!!!!

----------


## Rac7d*

is this right


https://twitter.com/KwingReviews/sta...17590605062148

----------


## Frontier

> I didn't think Judas Contract wasn't very good


So you thought it was good  :Smile: ?



> Bad Blood was a complete mess. Bad Blood was Dick's first time "leading" his own animated movie and and it was completely forgettable. I don't think he came off very well in it or even felt like his movie when it was supposed to be. I mean for it to be Dick's first time leading a movie no one talks about it. They had to cram in a bunch of other heroes like Luke Fox and Batwoman in the movie and I felt they completely messed up the transition to Batman. I know it wasn't going to be based on Morrison's story but the movie treated such an important transition as an afterthought and Bruce was gone for line a min it felt like.


I think _Bad Blood_ definitely had a lot going on then they could adequately all focus on in one animated movie. 

I think it definitely felt like his movie when he was driving the plot and showcasing where he excels at things Bruce doesn't, like working with others or knowing when to bring people into the fold when needed, on-top of being the one who tells the audience what Batman means to the Batfamily at the very end. 

Bruce really wasn't in the movie that much in my opinion. The one major time he was "in" was the prologue and when Talia brainwashed him into her enforcer.

----------


## Schumiac

> is this right
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KwingReviews/sta...17590605062148


April Fool's joke...

----------


## Godlike13

I don't get it.

----------


## Schumiac

It is stupid. Not very different than Winnick and Didio making a joke out of how passionate Nightwing fans are and how protective they are of the character. apparently it is very amusing that Nightwing fans care for Nightwing and want the best for him...

----------


## oasis1313

> is this right
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KwingReviews/sta...17590605062148


What in the world is this?

----------


## Drako

> What in the world is this?


Just a Nightwing fan doing a April Fool's joke.
He is not even a comic book writer, dude is a Youtuber.

----------


## oasis1313

Not ending picking up a joke, just some pretty fan art.

----------


## dropkickjake

In the tweet the guys says he is officially the new writer kn nightwing.

----------


## oasis1313

Oh.  It's better than Dan Didio having April Fools Day on us 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

----------


## Vordan

https://twitter.com/brianmbendis/sta...939819008?s=21
Looks like Dick might be part of the Leviathan Event after all. Also Bendis penchant for ignoring continuity might work in your guys favor. He might just ignore Ric and just write Dick as Dick.

----------


## BloodOps

Of course Nightwing won that tourney.

Take notes DC, he is the 4th head on your Mt.Rushmore for heroes, start treating him with respect.

----------


## Pohzee

I really do hope Bendis can ignore this crap, but I'm to worn out to be hopeful.

I also am pretty sure Flash will beat out Nightwing in the final vote.

----------


## Arsenal

Maybe Bendis will be the one who brings back Dick.

----------


## Pohzee

If Dick's involvement is limited to 1 issue and he's still slumming it as Ric in Nightwing issues solicited after that, then nope.

 Maybe Spyral will try recruit Dick for help and he'll be like. "Dick Grayson worked for you now, but I'm not him. I'm Ric Grayson the hobo and I'm staying that way. FOREVER."

----------


## oasis1313

> https://twitter.com/brianmbendis/sta...939819008?s=21
> Looks like Dick might be part of the Leviathan Event after all. Also Bendis penchant for ignoring continuity might work in your guys favor. He might just ignore Ric and just write Dick as Dick.


Bendis, be nice to Dick Grayson and I'll make sure you get enough Vancomycin to lat the rest of your life.

----------


## oasis1313

> https://twitter.com/brianmbendis/sta...939819008?s=21
> Looks like Dick might be part of the Leviathan Event after all. Also Bendis penchant for ignoring continuity might work in your guys favor. He might just ignore Ric and just write Dick as Dick.


Bendis, be nice to Dick Grayson and I'll make sure you get enough Vancomycin to last the rest of your life.

----------


## byrd156

> Of course Nightwing won that tourney.
> 
> Take notes DC, he is the 4th head on your Mt.Rushmore for heroes, start treating him with respect.


You really think DC is gonna take this poll into account for their creative decisions for Dick?

----------


## Ascended

> https://twitter.com/brianmbendis/sta...939819008?s=21
> Looks like Dick might be part of the Leviathan Event after all. Also Bendis penchant for ignoring continuity might work in your guys favor. He might just ignore Ric and just write Dick as Dick.


Well that should be interesting. 

Fingers crossed that Bendis gets to use Nightwing properly and isn't stuck writing the current status quo. Considering we've seen Dick-proper show up in a few places (Doomsday Clock) I have some small hope that Bendis will get to ignore the Ric stuff. 

And if Dick gets any real panel time and Bendis gets to write him properly, we'll finally see how he handles the character. I've been holding out a small, tiny hope that Bendis is a Nightwing fan and will come to the character's rescue (even though I know the odds of that are impossibly low)......I guess now we put that hope to the test.

Had to check the date on that tweet though; fortunately it's from the 2nd, not the 1st. If that had been an April's Fool joke I think I would've cried.

----------


## Arsenal

Bendis also shared a panel from Batman Universe that shows Dick & Bruce infiltrating into a building of some sort.

----------


## Badou

I'd guess that Dick being used in the Superman Leviathan event is just going to be a flashback to his time in Spyral or something like that. I would be surprised if Bendis gives him an actual role in the story. So a small reference or a call back type of thing is what I'd expect instead of Dick playing a role in the story the way Batman or Green Arrow will play. 

But I guess a reference is better than nothing maybe.

----------


## Slim Shady

> I'd guess that Dick being used in the Superman Leviathan event is just going to be a flashback to his time in Spyral or something like that. I would be surprised if Bendis gives him an actual role in the story. So a small reference or a call back type of thing is what I'd expect instead of Dick playing a role in the story the way Batman or Green Arrow will play. 
> 
> But I guess a reference is better than nothing maybe.


It's bad when a flashback will make us happy. Hoping it's the true Nightwing but I don't really see how that can be with the current status quo. Just as long as it's not Ric.

----------


## WonderNight

Well it looks like spyral has done more for nightwing than bludhaven once again :Smile: . Why is nightwing in bludhaven again?

Spyral>bludhaven.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well it looks like spyral has done more for nightwing than bludhaven once again. Why is nightwing in bludhaven again?
> 
> Spyral>bludhaven.


Didio wants Nightwing and his fans in Hell, and Bludhaven is the closest stop.

----------


## L.H.

Looking at the AC #1011 solicit, I'm not so excited. But still, better than nothing.
On the other hand, I liked the part about Bruce and Dick in JL#21. Snyder can truly save our boy.

----------


## Claude

> Didio wants Nightwing and his fans in Hell, and Bludhaven is the closest stop.


Didio wanted Dick in Spyral - "Grayson" was his baby. 

Bludhaven Or Bust seems to have been Johns.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Didio wanted Dick in Spyral - "Grayson" was his baby. 
> 
> Bludhaven Or Bust seems to have been Johns.


True. Actually, I suspect it wasn’t anything about Nightwing and Bludhaven in themselves, but a general and rushed policy to get everyone to a “popular” and/or “traditional” status quo FAST and by any means possible. That meant Nightwing in Bludhaven in his blue suit. I think in the haste to do so, the powers that be didn’t think through whether the “traditional” arrangement still worked for all characters.

----------


## Drako

https://twitter.com/NickDerington/st...08121814437889

----------


## Rac7d*

> You really think DC is gonna take this poll into account for their creative decisions for Dick?


mabey maby not but DCUNIVERSE will notice
and I want dick to win everything so they know fans are rooting for him and they should capitalize on him
I am going to be well into my thirties before nightwing even hits the movies fine but I can fight for him place in comics and tv

----------


## disillusion386

Ok so I dropped the current Nightwing run after several issues of Ric, but since Dick is probably my favorite DC character, I want to read/watch content he's in. I signed up for DC Universe and am now catching up on Young Justice (both the show and tie-in comic).

For comics, what other runs should i go back to? I haven't read Dixon's run from the 90s, and most of my exposure to the character are the Nightwing runs in the late 2000s/early 2010s, Morrison's and some of Snyder's DickBats, and Rebirth. Any recommendations for shows/movies? (PS. I like Babs a lot too, if that helps with recommendations)

----------


## Godlike13

If you also like Babs a lot then you should get around to reading Dixon’s Nightwing and Birds of Prey. And a hidden gem with Nightwing is JL Obsidian Age.

----------


## Jackalope89

Nightwing the New Order is an interesting Elseworlds mini. And the second time in which Dick and Starfire have a child together (not Mar'i though).

----------


## disillusion386

Awesome, thanks for the recommendations! Are the New52 Nightwing and Grayson runs worth reading?

----------


## Godlike13

Grayson absolutely. The New 52 run is passable, but Grayson is a must read for any Dick Grayson fan.

----------


## dropkickjake

Also check out Gates of Gotham if you haven't.

----------


## Rac7d*

His brief period as Reneagde was entertaining

----------


## disillusion386

Fantastic! These are all great, and I have a massive reading list now to wash the taste of Ric away for the time being.

----------


## Badou

> Didio wanted Dick in Spyral - "Grayson" was his baby. 
> 
> Bludhaven Or Bust seems to have been Johns.


Didio only wanted Dick as a spy to get him out of the way because of the "exposed secret identity" thing. He had nothing to do with the actual Grayson series or how it turned out. 

I agree that Johns is the one that put Dick back in Bludhaven but I don't think Didio cared. Since he only wanted Dick out of the way when he is causing an inconvenience. Johns in that first Rebirth panel said that when he thinks Nightwing he thinks "Blue suit and Bludhaven" so that is what we got.

----------


## Claude

> Didio only wanted Dick as a spy to get him out of the way because of the "exposed secret identity" thing. He had nothing to do with the actual Grayson series or how it turned out. 
> 
> I agree that Johns is the one that put Dick back in Bludhaven but I don't think Didio cared. Since he only wanted Dick out of the way when he is causing an inconvenience. Johns in that first Rebirth panel said that when he thinks Nightwing he thinks "Blue suit and Bludhaven" so that is what we got.


I think there's an important difference between "wanted him out of the way" and "wanted to give him something else to do". It's odd to think back to how angry people were that Dick was off having adventures in "Grayson" that precluded him being in "Batman Eternal", but in retrospect him being taken 'out of the way' and given his own world was a huge benefit to the character.

Obviously, there's more to it - but it always felt to me like things started to go a bit wrong for Dick again when he came back into the fold, with Robin War and Batman And Robin Eternal showing all the old problems of Dick operating in such a specifically Batmanny environment with the other Robins. 

(It's also been too many years for me to be sure, but I'm pretty certain Tom King used to mention in interviews that Didio was actually quite involved with - and supportive of - the launch of "Grayson" and it's early issues.)

----------


## Rac7d*

> Grayson absolutely. The New 52 run is passable, but Grayson is a must read for any Dick Grayson fan.


its a summarzed version of his dixon run considering the end

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I agree that Johns is the one that put Dick back in Bludhaven but I don't think Didio cared. Since he only wanted Dick out of the way when he is causing an inconvenience. Johns in that first Rebirth panel said that when he thinks Nightwing he thinks "Blue suit and Bludhaven" so that is what we got.


A rare mistake by Johns that has unfortunately helped lead to our current situation.

It's still to bad we couldn't have gone half way and just have Nightwing in the blue suit without Bludhaven weighing him down.

----------


## Ascended

> Ok so I dropped the current Nightwing run after several issues of Ric, but since Dick is probably my favorite DC character, I want to read/watch content he's in. I signed up for DC Universe and am now catching up on Young Justice (both the show and tie-in comic).
> 
> For comics, what other runs should i go back to? I haven't read Dixon's run from the 90s, and most of my exposure to the character are the Nightwing runs in the late 2000s/early 2010s, Morrison's and some of Snyder's DickBats, and Rebirth. Any recommendations for shows/movies? (PS. I like Babs a lot too, if that helps with recommendations)


I definitely recommend the Dixon era. It's probably not going to seem as novel or interesting to read it today, but twenty years ago when it came out it was a pretty big deal, and pulled Dick back into the "street level" stuff that Dick hadn't spent much time doing since the 80's. 

The New52 era stuff with Brett Booth on art, which saw Dick in Chicago with no support system (not even a way to repair/replace gear) was pretty solid but not anything really mind blowing. 

Grayson is a must-read. New Order was a really intriguing Elseworlds that I really enjoyed; it put Dick in a different kind of position than we're used to seeing and it was a lot of fun. Dixon. Booth/Chicago. All worth a read.

The first chunk of the New52, where Dick was dealing with Haly's Circus, was decent, up until about the time of the "Death of the Family" event that ran through all the Bat titles. It wasn't the best but it was better than I gave it credit for at the time.

----------


## byrd156

> True. Actually, I suspect it wasnt anything about Nightwing and Bludhaven in themselves, but a general and rushed policy to get everyone to a popular and/or traditional status quo FAST and by any means possible. That meant Nightwing in Bludhaven in his blue suit. I think in the haste to do so, the powers that be didnt think through whether the traditional arrangement still worked for all characters.


The reason Bludhaven pre-New 52 worked was because it was built over a long period with a slower burn to it. Rushing Dick back there without a clear definition of how this version is different and why Dick is even there hurts Bludhaven I feel.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe Bendis will be the one who brings back Dick.


nnnnhn sure

----------


## Godlike13

One of the problems with new Bludhaven was that the Grayson direction, and those world elements, didn't really run it's full course yet. They cut it short, stopped the spy angle cold, and threw him back in Bluhaven making Bludhaven seem like the bad guy. And before anyone brings up sales, Ric sales are shit and thats still going strong despite everything. I believe if they built to going back to Bludhaven, and let the spy angle naturally run its course, then eventually going back to Bludhaven could have been viewed differently and ultimately better.

----------


## byrd156

> One of the problems with new Bludhaven was that the Grayson direction, and those world elements, didn't really run it's full course yet. They cut it short, stopped the spy angle cold, and threw him back in Bluhaven making Bludhaven seem like the bad guy. And before anyone brings up sales, Ric sales are shit and thats still going strong despite everything. I believe if they built to going back to Bludhaven, and let the spy angle naturally run its course, then eventually going back to Bludhaven could have been viewed differently and ultimately better.


This. The spy angle should have lead Dick to Bludhaven a couple times that way Dick can build up a new natural connection to the place. Otherwise he's just there because he was in the last big Nightwing run.

----------


## WonderNight

> One of the problems with new Bludhaven was that the Grayson direction, and those world elements, didn't really run it's full course yet. They cut it short, stopped the spy angle cold, and threw him back in Bluhaven making Bludhaven seem like the bad guy. And before anyone brings up sales, Ric sales are shit and thats still going strong despite everything. I believe if they built to going back to Bludhaven, and let the spy angle naturally run its course, then eventually going back to Bludhaven could have been viewed differently and ultimately better.


but would that have mattered after he returned to bludhevan? He'd still have the same problems has now.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think there's an important difference between "wanted him out of the way" and "wanted to give him something else to do". It's odd to think back to how angry people were that Dick was off having adventures in "Grayson" that precluded him being in "Batman Eternal", but in retrospect him being taken 'out of the way' and given his own world was a huge benefit to the character.
> 
> Obviously, there's more to it - but it always felt to me like things started to go a bit wrong for Dick again when he came back into the fold, with Robin War and Batman And Robin Eternal showing all the old problems of Dick operating in such a specifically Batmanny environment with the other Robins. 
> 
> (It's also been too many years for me to be sure, but I'm pretty certain Tom King used to mention in interviews that Didio was actually quite involved with - and supportive of - the launch of "Grayson" and it's early issues.)


Thank you. Nightwing needs to go out into the world and stop being all up under daddy. It amazes me sometimes when nightwing fans are so scared to let him leave the nest and grow up. 

But why be the center of the dcu's spyverse when you can be just another robin in a sea of robins.

----------


## Badou

> The reason Bludhaven pre-New 52 worked was because it was built over a long period with a slower burn to it. Rushing Dick back there without a clear definition of how this version is different and why Dick is even there hurts Bludhaven I feel.


I think it is highly debatable if pre-new 52 Bludhaven worked. There was nothing to compare Dixon's Bludhaven to since this was Dick's first solo series, but I think as time went on and we saw more Bludhaven it revealed a lot of problems with the whole concept. Nightwing wasn't a successful solo character because of Bludhaven and he would have been successful in nearly any kind of solo setting because the character was already well liked, but now many think that Bludhvaen is tied to his success when I think it is the opposite. Dick is the one carrying around a dead corpse in Bludhaven which would have zero chance at lasting if not for Dick. 

Seeley spent a long time and put a lot of effort into trying to build Bludhaven into something. He was also the perfect person to do this because he did not like the Dixon era Bludhaven and Blockbuster. He wasn't a fan of them and only agreed to write the book if he could do what he wanted in it. So he really tried to redesign Bludhaven to be something more than a "gritter Gotham" and tried give Blockbuster an actual character beyond a Kingpin knockoff. I think Seeley did as good a job as anyone could have and approached it the best way possible, but it didn't matter because it really showed the core problems of Bludhaven. 

It ended up not working because at its core Bludhaven just is a bad concept and has very limited story potiental. There is just nothing there. It doesn't matter if they make it look live Vegas or a darker Gotham. There is just nothing in the city that inspires any lasting interest because it is so devoid of interesting elements. There is also no reason for Dick to even be in Bludhaven other than DC wants to make Nightwing their Daredevil and he needed to be in a city running around on rooftops and doing some boring normal job during the day. 

Even Seeley understood why Dick had zero reason to go to or stay in Bludhaven so he just had him go to Bludhaven because Superman told him to go there, and tried to build him a love interest tied to the city to give him a reason to care about it and stay. Then he also tried to build up a deep connection between Blockbuster and Bludhaven that would again tie Dick indirectly more to the city. As DC wants Blockbuster to be Dick's archenemy (which is dumb), but again like with the love interest in Shawn it is trying to build an indirect connection to the city rather than a direct one because unless you retcon Dick's history a lot he has no direct connection or reason to give that much of a shit about Bludhaven. Then once the Shawn relationship was finished and Blockbuster was dealt with the city had to stand on its own and predictably it failed because it has no identity or anything that makes it special or any big ties to Dick.  




> One of the problems with new Bludhaven was that the Grayson direction, and those world elements, didn't really run it's full course yet. They cut it short, stopped the spy angle cold, and threw him back in Bluhaven making Bludhaven seem like the bad guy. And before anyone brings up sales, Ric sales are shit and thats still going strong despite everything. I believe if they built to going back to Bludhaven, and let the spy angle naturally run its course, then eventually going back to Bludhaven could have been viewed differently and ultimately better.


I'll forever be bitter that the Grayson ended prematurely. That Spy Wars arc was probably going to be the biggest single story that Dick had ever been involved in that was HIS story that HIS own book was doing instead of being tied in to something the Batman book or the JL or some event book was doing, and it was all abandoned. I would have still hated Bludhvaen regardless, but it is was such a massive step down going from a story where Dick felt important to just generic street level stuff. I know Seeley tried to alternate between the Bludhvaen and world traveling stories, but I don't think that worked. It never felt smooth.

----------


## WonderNight

100% badou. Also remember when suicide squad and midnighter were coming under the Grayson "family" of books were dick a corner stone of the dcu as a solo main hero. 

Now he just feels like just another sidekick, Robin and street leveler. Sad :Frown:

----------


## oasis1313

> 100% badou. Also remember when suicide squad and midnighter were coming under the Grayson "family" of books were dick a corner stone of the dcu as a solo main hero. 
> 
> Now he just feels like just another sidekick, Robin and street leveler. Sad


At least Darlin' Dan is happy.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think it is highly debatable if pre-new 52 Bludhaven worked. There was nothing to compare Dixon's Bludhaven to since this was Dick's first solo series, but I think as time went on and we saw more Bludhaven it revealed a lot of problems with the whole concept. Nightwing wasn't a successful solo character because of Bludhaven and he would have been successful in nearly any kind of solo setting because the character was already well liked, but now many think that Bludhvaen is tied to his success when I think it is the opposite. Dick is the one carrying around a dead corpse in Bludhaven which would have zero chance at lasting if not for Dick. 
> 
> Seeley spent a long time and put a lot of effort into trying to build Bludhaven into something. He was also the perfect person to do this because he did not like the Dixon era Bludhaven and Blockbuster. He wasn't a fan of them and only agreed to write the book if he could do what he wanted in it. So he really tried to redesign Bludhaven to be something more than a "gritter Gotham" and tried give Blockbuster an actual character beyond a Kingpin knockoff. I think Seeley did as good a job as anyone could have and approached it the best way possible, but it didn't matter because it really showed the core problems of Bludhaven. 
> 
> It ended up not working because at its core Bludhaven just is a bad concept and has very limited story potiental. There is just nothing there. It doesn't matter if they make it look live Vegas or a darker Gotham. There is just nothing in the city that inspires any lasting interest because it is so devoid of interesting elements. There is also no reason for Dick to even be in Bludhaven other than DC wants to make Nightwing their Daredevil and he needed to be in a city running around on rooftops and doing some boring normal job during the day. 
> 
> Even Seeley understood why Dick had zero reason to go to or stay in Bludhaven so he just had him go to Bludhaven because Superman told him to go there, and tried to build him a love interest tied to the city to give him a reason to care about it and stay. Then he also tried to build up a deep connection between Blockbuster and Bludhaven that would again tie Dick indirectly more to the city. As DC wants Blockbuster to be Dick's archenemy (which is dumb), but again like with the love interest in Shawn it is trying to build an indirect connection to the city rather than a direct one because unless you retcon Dick's history a lot he has no direct connection or reason to give that much of a shit about Bludhaven. Then once the Shawn relationship was finished and Blockbuster was dealt with the city had to stand on its own and predictably it failed because it has no identity or anything that makes it special or any big ties to Dick.  
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I read the first few of the old trades for the Nightwing series (I think A Knight in Bludhaven, Rough Justice and Love and Bullets) and while they certainly weren't bad by any stretch of the imagination, they weren't particularly great either. The most memorable things to come out of those stories were when his most important relationships guest starred: a Bat-Family member, one of the Titans or Superman. None of the content associated with Bludhaven stood out. There's nothing important tying him there. It was the setting of his first solo series, but he was a big character with lots if connections long before he got a solo.

----------


## Frontier

I liked Dixon and Seeley's Bludhaven...



> https://twitter.com/NickDerington/st...08121814437889


Kind of reminds me of some of Seeley's work on _Nightwing._ 

Honestly kind of makes me think that Nightwing is probably the one member of the Batfamily I think Bendis would feel the most at home with. Maybe him or Babs but I have no idea what people's baseline for Batgirl is at this point.

----------


## oasis1313

I can't imagine that Bendis could possibly like both Tim and Dick.  He looks like 1000% Team Tim to me.  I'd like to be wrong, but he just impresses me as a more indulged version of Tynion.

----------


## byrd156

> I can't imagine that Bendis could possibly like both Tim and Dick.  He looks like 1000% Team Tim to me.  I'd like to be wrong, but he just impresses me as a more indulged version of Tynion.


Why? How is it hard to believe that he would like Dick and Tim? You can like more than one character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Thank you. Nightwing needs to go out into the world and stop being all up under daddy. It amazes me sometimes when nightwing fans are so scared to let him leave the nest and grow up. 
> 
> But why dc the center of the dcu's spyverse when you can be just another robin in sea of robins.


Hes already grown up, their is no where he could go that would stop him from coming is Bruce called nowhere

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why? How is it hard to believe that he would like Dick and Tim? You can like more than one character.


but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force

----------


## WonderNight

> Hes already grown up, their is no where he could go that would stop him from coming is Bruce called nowhere


Never said he cant still interact with the family, its a shared universe. But nightwing should be out in the dcu building his own home, family and legacy. I'm tired of nightwing just being a supporting character and sidekick, its time he starts being one of dc's main heroes. 

There's no difference between being nightwing and being robin, that sucks. So he in blue now. Great. But hey that movie though..Nope wait for batman's movie first. His solo though.. Nope wait for batman story to finish. Maybe join the "big leagues" the JL.. Nope batman is there (but mera, hawkgirl and supergirl can with aquaman, hawkman and superman still there).

Hell snyder start the DCEU with dick DEAD! kill of sceen before DCEU even STARTS! Im just tired man. Dick hasn't grown, robin is currently more independent then nightwing. Nightwing is just a side character the dc keeps around because he's popular, so they just isolate in bludhaven and use him to job and push other.

----------


## Arsenal

> but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
> Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force


... uh what now?

----------


## Dzetoun

> but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
> Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force


Yeah, I will second Arsenal in needing an explanation of this one. Dick is decades senior to Jason both as Robin and as an independent good guy. Both Dick and Damian (and for that matter, Tim) have a larger fan following than Jason, judging by sales numbers. Jason does certainly have great popularity, particularly with regard to the _Under the Red Hood_ animated feature and the _Arkham Knight_ video game.

----------


## redmax99

> but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
> Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force


i don't understand your statement, but you need to remember jason is not in the bat's office he's a bat character but not in his office so is damian they are under the superman banner and tim is under bendis pen right now. the only robin in the bats office is dick that's why he could get shot in the head and not be their for bruce.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I can't imagine that Bendis could possibly like both Tim and Dick.  He looks like 1000% Team Tim to me.  I'd like to be wrong, but he just impresses me as a more indulged version of Tynion.


its not about what he likes its what his son likes

----------


## Claude

> Yeah, I will second Arsenal in needing an explanation of this one. Dick is decades senior to Jason both as Robin and as an independent good guy. Both Dick and Damian (and for that matter, Tim) have a larger fan following than Jason, judging by sales numbers. Jason does certainly have great popularity, particularly with regard to the _Under the Red Hood_ animated feature and the _Arkham Knight_ video game.


It's funny to think of the benefits that potentially come with that. I can't remember who it was, back in the day, but they used to make a pretty good case that the "Grayson" plot - that is,a member of the Bat Family pretends to be 'turned' by a morally dubious organisation to which he's really Batman's man on the inside - was potentially the best _Jason Todd_ story that could have been told. He wouldn't have had the complications the Bat Line had with everyone suddenly stopping talking about Dick whilst they were supposed to be mourning him, because Jason could slip out and not see anyone for months at a time plausibly without anyone flagging it as strange. He wouldn't have had the obvious "refuses to fully submit because he wont kill" flag on his Spyral record because he doesn't have a No Kill rule, and his fractious relationship with other characters mean that he could 'turn' on them more plausibly.

And then when he's outed as a Spyral agent, you could have got a lot of material out of his reaction to other characters believing his turn was genuine.

But, perhaps more helpfully, he doesn't have a "classic" status quo to return to - so it could plausibly have been a "permanent" change in the way that nobody really believed (although I hoped!) it was for Dick. But it also could have been permanent because, as Lobdell has proven, the smaller Todd fanbase is a consistently loyal one - without the push to return to a 90s nostalgia on the one hand, and with sales dependable enough to keep the book afloat, _Todd_ could have run forever where _Grayson_ could not.


Which is a bit of a sidetrack - I wouldn't _wish_ that book into existence, because it worked so well for Dick at the time that it did. (And Dick's just better than Jason. So there.  :Stick Out Tongue:  ) But it's interesting to think of the ways Dick's fame and popularity are in some ways a hindrance. Jason Todd wouldn't have had the lame showing Dick did in Forever Evil, for instance, because nine times out of ten he just wouldn't be _in_ a book like that - and if he _was_, he'd be a character that you couldn't assume the reader would know so he'd need to do more to attract their interest.

----------


## Arsenal

In the alternate reality where that book exists, I really hope it wasn’t called Todd because that’s just an awfully bland name for a book.

----------


## Jackalope89

> In the alternate reality where that book exists, I really hope it wasn’t called Todd because that’s just an awfully bland name for a book.


Maybe its called, "Todd, Jason Todd."

----------


## Godlike13

Take away the dichotomy and would Grayson even be worth reading. The whole point of putting the character into something that’s out of their element, is that it’s out of their elemental. Putting the morally dubious character in the morally dubious organization, with no one caring that they're gone, and no complications. Ya, that sounds like a hoot  :Stick Out Tongue: . As exciting as when they had him pretty much immediately after Grayson go undercover for Batman, LoL. Just like it would have been perfect for Tim too. Cause he’s the shady thinker.

----------


## 9th.

Does Nightwing have any crazy fangirls like Green Arrows Cupid?

----------


## Godlike13

Does Bette count?

----------


## oasis1313

> Does Nightwing have any crazy fangirls like Green Arrows Cupid?


I thought Nightwing had more crazy fangirls than anybody.

----------


## Frontier

> It's funny to think of the benefits that potentially come with that. I can't remember who it was, back in the day, but they used to make a pretty good case that the "Grayson" plot - that is,a member of the Bat Family pretends to be 'turned' by a morally dubious organisation to which he's really Batman's man on the inside - was potentially the best _Jason Todd_ story that could have been told. He wouldn't have had the complications the Bat Line had with everyone suddenly stopping talking about Dick whilst they were supposed to be mourning him, because Jason could slip out and not see anyone for months at a time plausibly without anyone flagging it as strange. He wouldn't have had the obvious "refuses to fully submit because he wont kill" flag on his Spyral record because he doesn't have a No Kill rule, and his fractious relationship with other characters mean that he could 'turn' on them more plausibly.
> 
> And then when he's outed as a Spyral agent, you could have got a lot of material out of his reaction to other characters believing his turn was genuine.
> 
> But, perhaps more helpfully, he doesn't have a "classic" status quo to return to - so it could plausibly have been a "permanent" change in the way that nobody really believed (although I hoped!) it was for Dick. But it also could have been permanent because, as Lobdell has proven, the smaller Todd fanbase is a consistently loyal one - without the push to return to a 90s nostalgia on the one hand, and with sales dependable enough to keep the book afloat, _Todd_ could have run forever where _Grayson_ could not.


Jason being the "man on the inside" kind of reminds me of the initial premise of his Rebirth run, although all things being considered I think Jason works better in his Lobdell niche then he would've worked in a _Grayson_ setting.

----------


## byrd156

> Does Bette count?


Bette was a Robin fangirl, I don't know if that's a thing anymore. Doubt it.

----------


## byrd156

> but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
> Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force


What does this have to do with being able to like multiple characters? Also I have no idea what the hell you just said.

----------


## oasis1313

> But, perhaps more helpfully, he doesn't have a "classic" status quo to return to - so it could plausibly have been a "permanent" change in the way that nobody really believed (although I hoped!) it was for Dick. But it also could have been permanent because, as Lobdell has proven, the smaller Todd fanbase is a consistently loyal one - without the push to return to a 90s nostalgia on the one hand, and with sales dependable enough to keep the book afloat, _Todd_ could have run forever where _Grayson_ could not.


I wouldn't call Jason's fanbase smaller than Dick's (isn't his book selling better); they're certainly as dedicated because they've had even less gravy (if such is possible; Wingnuts are generally kept starved like tigers under the Roman Colosseum). They wouldn't know how to react if their boy was coddled and pampered as Tim is,

----------


## Godlike13

No his book isn’t selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product. Not that it matters. The current Bat office sees Nightwing as lesser. They could give a shit about Dick’s fanbase. You certainly didn’t see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his “new direction”, they never struggle to keep creators on Jason’s book, and they even went to Lobdell for Nightwing to half write in his spare time. If we can even call it that. Dick’s fanbase does not matter. That’s pretty crystal clear at this point.

Which is why I find it funny that there are some that still think it was Dick’s fanbase that had something to do with the ending of Grayson.

Btw some might also want to take a look at where Lobdell and Jason’s sales were, at that same time compared to Grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

> No his book isn’t selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product. Not that it matters. The current Bat office sees Nightwing as lesser. They could give a shit about Dick’s fanbase. You certainly didn’t see them commissioning new spiffy designs for his “new direction”, and they even went to Lobdell for Nightwing. Dick’s fanbase does not matter. That’s pretty crystal clear at this point.


I'm not sure Reek can be considered much of a change of direction when they essentially wrote Dick out of his own book.  How DOES a character's fanbase manage to "matter"?  It seems a matter of editorial fiat--such as all promo and other such goodies will go to Tim while Dick, Jason, and Damian are persona non gratis?

----------


## Godlike13

I honestly do not know anymore. Supporting a book for over 50 issues, in market where that’s a rather rare feat, doesn’t do it. Some believe not buying it will help, though I don’t know about that. I’m not sure Dick fanbase or readers are ever going to matter to the people currently in control of the character. Seems to me that to them the less they have to work on him the better. At this point I half think they see the character as trash and his readers as gullible idiots.

----------


## oasis1313

> I honestly do not know anymore. Supporting a book for over 50 issues, in market where that’s a rather rare feat, doesn’t do it. Some believe not buying it will help, though I don’t know about that. I’m not sure Dick fanbase or readers are ever going to matter to the people currently in control of the character. Seems to me that to them the less they have to work on him the better. At this point I half think they see the character as trash and his readers as gullible idiots.


It's hard for us, has been for over sixty years here.  I don't think DC even sees us as gullible idiots--just worthless trash.  A Grayson fan who spends $200 bucks on books and merch a month is garbage compared to a Dreckie who vomits up two bucks a month.  If I was in Didio's spot, I'd push out all the Nightwing product his fans would spring for.

----------


## Aahz

> Take away the dichotomy and would Grayson even be worth reading. The whole point of putting the character into something thats out of their element, is that its out of their elemental. Putting the morally dubious character in the morally dubious organization, with no one caring that they're gone, and no complications. Ya, that sounds like a hoot . As exciting as when they had him pretty much immediately after Grayson go undercover for Batman, LoL. Just like it would have been perfect for Tim too. Cause hes the shady thinker.


On the other hand "Grayson" hardly ever put Dick into situations were he had to morally dubious stuff, and Spyral never really tested him to see how loyal he really was to them. Which was imo really a weak point of the whole thing.

----------


## Dzetoun

> On the other hand "Grayson" hardly ever put Dick into situations were he had to morally dubious stuff, and Spyral never really tested him to see how loyal he really was to them. Which was imo really a weak point of the whole thing.


Actually, _Grayson_ began in a very dark, or at least adult, direction, with the first three issues featuring manipulation, cannibal scientists, tragedy, sexual games, and much else. Then, in the fourth issue, you could almost hear the cries of “pull up, pull up, Mayday, Mayday!” We have a sharp turn toward the skull girls as carnival figures, Helena as a sympathetic friend, Tiger as an honorable warrior, the cannibal doctor as a recurring joke (leading to eventually writing her out in _Robin War_ with a twist that made no sense at all) and chasing each other over the rooftops. I remember King saying there was talk of ending _Grayson_ with issue five or six. I wonder if these changes relate to that?

----------


## Rakiduam

> No his book isnt selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product. Not that it matters. The current Bat office sees Nightwing as lesser. They could give a shit about Dicks fanbase. You certainly didnt see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his new direction, they never struggle to keep creators on Jasons book, and they even went to Lobdell for Nightwing to half write in his spare time. If we can even call it that. Dicks fanbase does not matter. Thats pretty crystal clear at this point.
> 
> Which is why I find it funny that there are some that still think it was Dicks fanbase that had something to do with the ending of Grayson.
> 
> Btw some might also want to take a look at where Lobdell and Jasons sales were at that same time compared to Grayson.


I don't think fan base matters all that much, Babs fanbase is huge, and sold great under Simone, then her rebirth title generated a lot of buzz but fall fast.

Then you have Jason Todd, tumblr and twitter go crazy every time he appears somewhere (aw jaybird) and most think his title is at it's best but doesn't really sells that much.

Directions and push seem to respond to whatever whim edditorial has more than number of sales, what leads me to think is true that comics are not a business but a marketing tool.

----------


## Godlike13

> Actually, _Grayson_ began in a very dark, or at least adult, direction, with the first three issues featuring manipulation, cannibal scientists, tragedy, sexual games, and much else. Then, in the fourth issue, you could almost hear the cries of “pull up, pull up, Mayday, Mayday!” We have a sharp turn toward the skull girls as carnival figures, Helena as a sympathetic friend, Tiger as an honorable warrior, the cannibal doctor as a recurring joke (leading to eventually writing her out in _Robin War_ with a twist that made no sense at all) and chasing each other over the rooftops. I remember King saying there was talk of ending _Grayson_ with issue five or six. I wonder if these changes relate to that?


I think that has more has to do with Seeley and King’s conflicting styles. Seeley went lighter, and King heavier. So we’d get an issue like The Gun Goes Off, followed by Dick playing with the skull girls, followed by Dick having to walk a new born through the desert after its mother they were abducting dies. 

And between the constant lying, the stealing, the kidnapping, and brainwashing I personally think Dick was put into plenty of situations where he was tested with morally dubious stuff. Dick himself was not going to become morally dubious though, because then they lose that dichotomy and that struggle. Though Spyral never really did test how loyal he truly was, but that’s because ultimately it was a trap. Minos for example was there to lure him further in.

----------


## Aahz

There was some wired stuff going on at Spyral but Dick's morality was never really pushed to his limits, The Gun Goes Off came maybe the closed but even that was pretty minor. It was never really a life or death situation.
Something like when during the Genevieve Valentine run, Catwoman was forced to kill her cousin (?).

I could never really understand the hype around Grayson, imo they should have either gone dark and pushed Dick really to his limits, with him in constant danger that they discover that he spies for Batman, or they should have gone for really over the top Spy adventures.

----------


## Robanker

> There was some wired stuff going on at Spyral but Dick's morality was never really pushed to his limits, The Gun Goes Off came maybe the closed but even that was pretty minor. It was never really a life or death situation.
> Something like when during the Genevieve Valentine run, Catwoman was forced to kill her cousin (?).
> 
> I could never really understand the hype around Grayson, imo they should have either gone dark and pushed Dick really to his limits, with him in constant danger that they discover that he spies for Batman, or they should have gone for really over the top Spy adventures.


The hype really just comes down to Dick being put in an unusual situation and adapting in ways that felt entirely on-point with his characterization. It was a fun adventure taking him somewhere we hadn't seen and it didn't read like the editorial mandate to shake things up that it most definitely was.

----------


## Badou

> On the other hand "Grayson" hardly ever put Dick into situations were he had to morally dubious stuff, and Spyral never really tested him to see how loyal he really was to them. Which was imo really a weak point of the whole thing.


Well the reason for that is because Spyral knew who Dick was. So it isn't like Dick went in undercover and had to hide he was Nightwing and worked with Batman. He wasn't trying to pretend to be someone he wasn't where he had to do questionable things in order to gain Spyral's trust. He was more put in a situation where the organization was doing morally dubious things and had to navigate that knowing they were aware of it. Which isn't that different than what he typically does as Nightwing.

So them forcing Dick to kill doesn't really make sense given the context because they knew he wouldn't do it and didn't care if he did. They recruited him knowing he was Nightwing and worked with Batman and thought they could use him and his skills. 




> No his book isnt selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product. Not that it matters. The current Bat office sees Nightwing as lesser. They could give a shit about Dicks fanbase. You certainly didnt see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his new direction, they never struggle to keep creators on Jasons book, and they even went to Lobdell for Nightwing to half write in his spare time. If we can even call it that. Dicks fanbase does not matter. Thats pretty crystal clear at this point.
> 
> Which is why I find it funny that there are some that still think it was Dicks fanbase that had something to do with the ending of Grayson.
> 
> Btw some might also want to take a look at where Lobdell and Jasons sales were, at that same time compared to Grayson.


Well it is also telling that Red Hood is also a book that has creators that still go back to it and speak lovingly of it. Lobdell obviously loves the property but you have other creators like Soy or a Rocafort that feel very real attachments to it and the character, but you see none of that for the Nightwing book. Most creators that leave Nightwing leave feeling miserable and have no desire to come back because of all the shit they have to deal with.

----------


## oasis1313

DC is too busy sabotaging Nightwing.  The fanbase has nothing to do with the end of Grayson; DC just wanted to resume the abuse.

----------


## Ascended

I still think that if the Bat office can't do anything with Nightwing, then Dick should move to Metropolis and join the Super-editors. Maybe spending some time under Uncle Clark's editorial umbrella would be good for him. 

Odd, to consider the Super editors a better option, considering how long we had to suffer Berganza.

----------


## WonderNight

> I still think that if the Bat office can't do anything with Nightwing, then Dick should move to Metropolis and join the Super-editors. Maybe spending some time under Uncle Clark's editorial umbrella would be good for him. 
> 
> Odd, to consider the Super editors a better option, considering how long we had to suffer Berganza.


Well I said dick should leave the bat office, but most fans just laughed it off. I mean dick under a group that actually wants to push him? That's crazy talk! He needs all up under batman and the rest of the sidekicks.

----------


## oasis1313

> I still think that if the Bat office can't do anything with Nightwing, then Dick should move to Metropolis and join the Super-editors. Maybe spending some time under Uncle Clark's editorial umbrella would be good for him. 
> 
> Odd, to consider the Super editors a better option, considering how long we had to suffer Berganza.


Well, there's all those Wildstorm characters DC paid Jim Lee a very large fortune for just so he'd draw a cover for them on occasion.  King and Seeley started out well using Dick as an intro character to hook readers for them.  I found the latest Wildstorm book unreadable from the offset and don't even know if it's still being published.  I'd love to see Dick lead a team with Caitlyn Fairchild on it, have him mach wits with Tao, trying to keep Grifter holstered.

----------


## Aahz

> No his book isnt selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product.


That's true for comics, but Jason seems to be a huge draw in other media. For injustice he was apparently the most requested character.





> You certainly didnt see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his new direction


In the past Nightwingfans usually wanted the classic costume back, if they changed it.

----------


## oasis1313

> In the past Nightwingfans usually wanted the classic costume back, if they changed it.


I think Dick's fans will go along with pretty much anything they feel to be in his favor.  I welcomed "Grayson" and was sorry to see it end.

----------


## Aahz

> Well it is also telling that Red Hood is also a book that has creators that still go back to it and speak lovingly of it. Lobdell obviously loves the property but you have other creators like Soy or a Rocafort that feel very real attachments to it and the character, but you see none of that for the Nightwing book. Most creators that leave Nightwing leave feeling miserable and have no desire to come back because of all the shit they have to deal with.


I think the difference is, that there have not been that many writers and artists (at least the ones who did large numbers of issues) for Red Hood than for Nightwing, so the few that are there have still an kind of iconic status for the fans.

And afaik RHatO was kind of the break out book for Soy and maybe also for Rocafort.

And there seem to be also alot of Nightwing fans among writers and artists.

----------


## Godlike13

> That's true for comics, but Jason seems to be a huge draw in other media. For injustice he was apparently the most requested character.


Most requested character for game with a sea of characters already in the game, not that that isn’t cool. Dick on the other hand is just staring in 2 tv shows on their app. Not that it seems to matter. 




> In the past Nightwingfans usually wanted the classic costume back, if they changed it.


Oh, so that’s why they had one of the artist drawing him for that month just throw him in jeans and tea and roll his face in dirt. They don’t want to mess with his classic costume that we haven’t seen him with in like a decade. I keep forgeting they care so much about what Nightwing fans want.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Most requested character for game with a sea of characters already in the game, not that that isn’t cool. Dick on the other hand is just staring in 2 tv shows on their app. Not that it seems to matter.



To be fair also staring the app is Doom Patrol and Stargirl.






> Oh, so that’s why they had one of the artist drawing him for that month to just throw him in jeans and tea and roll his face in dirt. They don’t want to mess with his classic costume that we haven’t seen him in in like a decade. I keep forgeting they care so much about what Nightwing fans want.


Oh yes, Ric killed any illusion of DC caring what fans want.

----------


## Godlike13

That is fair. Just saying it’s not like Dick doesn’t have noting going on in other media too. Also not trying to throw shade on Jason. It is cool that fans wanted Red Hood in Injustice.

----------


## oasis1313

> That is fair. Just saying it’s not like Dick doesn’t have noting going on in other media too. Also not trying to throw shade on Jason. It is cool that fans wanted Red Hood in Injustice.


I'm a pretty diehard Jason fan, too, and he deserves every break that comes his way.  My first loyalty is to Nightwing, but I'd happily go to the wall for Jason or Damian.  It's just too bad that Warners bigwigs aren't paying enough attention to DC Editorial stinking up the cat litterbox; somebody needs to scoop some clumps out of there.

----------


## Aahz

> That is fair. Just saying its not like Dick doesnt have noting going on in other media too. Also not trying to throw shade on Jason. It is cool that fans wanted Red Hood in Injustice.


Thats also not the point I wanted to make, I just wanted to point out that Jason has quite a large fanbase out side of the comics comunity.
The thing is the only sells we are seeing are sales on the domestic direct marked and to a degree on the digital sales.

Thats ignores stuff like, trades, sales out side of the US and probably most important merchandise (I mean there are action figures that cost more than buying the floppies for a year or two).

----------


## Shockingjustice

The pitch a direction Grayson thread talked about him getting a original sidekick. How do you guys feel that would work?

----------


## OWL45

> The pitch a direction Grayson thread talked about him getting a original sidekick. How do you guys feel that would work?


The character is barely the focus on his owm book. I dont see how having a side kick would be beneficial to the character. He is already starved for personal development and attention.

----------


## Ascended

> Well I said dick should leave the bat office, but most fans just laughed it off. I mean dick under a group that actually wants to push him? That's crazy talk! He needs all up under batman and the rest of the sidekicks.


Yeah, I dont get why fans are so reluctant to entertain the idea either. The Bat-office is flooded with characters and they can't even manage to include all of them in titles each month. And the quality of effort they put into Dick these days leaves a lot to be desired. If another office has room for Dick and an interest in using him I dont see the problem. Its not like Dick is going to lose all his ties to Gotham just because another editorial group is handling him.

There's even precedent for it; during the NTT era Dick was the property of the Titans editors, not the Bat-office. Dick didn't return "home" until the Titans titles had fallen apart.

----------


## JoeZ

Guys, is it known exactly when Dick will be back? How long before they finish the "Ric" storyline? How long before they announce the return of Dick Grayson?
Any prediction how soon?  :Frown:

----------


## Ascended

Far as I know nothing concrete has been announced, or even hinted at. Best we have is Dick showing up as Nightwing in stuff like Doomsday Clock, and those are just tiny cameos in books that aren't tightly tied to continuity. 

If those rumors of a big Bat event this summer/fall turn out to be true then I expect a relaunch with new #1's at the end of it, and I expect Nightwing to be among them, back in proper form. But at this point I dont know if there's any real reason to think that this Ric stuff is going to end anytime soon.

----------


## oasis1313

> The character is barely the focus on his owm book. I don’t see how having a side kick would be beneficial to the character. He is already starved for personal development and attention.


This.  I fear a sidekick--particularly a newly created one--would bleed Dick of the emphasis he needs.

----------


## Arsenal

> This.  I fear a sidekick--particularly a newly created one--would bleed Dick of the emphasis he needs.


Or even worse: Dick becomes his sidekick’s sidekick.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s pretty much what’s going on right now with the Nightwing wannabes.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Guys, is it known exactly when Dick will be back? How long before they finish the "Ric" storyline? How long before they announce the return of Dick Grayson?
> Any prediction how soon?


As of right now I dont see any light at the end of the tunnel. Im honestly surprised its gone on this long. Theyve got to be working on bringing in a new creative team soon and getting things back to normal. I mean were approaching a year with this, thats too long for even big great storylines.

----------


## WonderNight

> There's even precedent for it; during the NTT era Dick was the property of the Titans editors, not the Bat-office. Dick didn't return "home" until the Titans titles had fallen apart.


 also don't most fans say that's when dick had his most growth and development. To me it looks like dick has been and always will be just a sidekick under batman in the bat office and his "fans" love it.

----------


## Ascended

> also don't most fans say that's when dick had his most growth and development.


Yeah, that's actually sort of an objective fact. In the decades Dick was Robin, the industry was different and the entire Bat-world didn't advance too much. They didn't want the basic status quo to really change (and usually still dont). But Wolfman's NTT was all about pushing characters forward and developing them, which was (and still is) very unusual and very purposeful on Wolfman's part. So it feels a little unfair to hold that against the Bat-history. 




> To me it looks like dick has been and always will be just a sidekick under batman in the bat office and his "fans" love it.


I think a lot of fans didn't discover Nightwing until the 90's, when the Titans franchise was burning and Dick was returned to the Bat-office. So for them, the "default" position for Nightwing is in Batman's world, or at least the "street level vigilante" genre, which might as well be the same thing.

----------


## oasis1313

> As of right now I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel. I’m honestly surprised it’s gone on this long. They’ve got to be working on bringing in a new creative team soon and getting things back to normal. I mean we’re approaching a year with this, that’s too long for even big great storylines.


I don't think DC is working on anything except rubbing our noses into excrement.  With four Wingiewanabees, each one of them is going to "need" 4-6 issues to establish their "backstories", motivations, origins, etc etc etc, so I can see up to two years tied up with that.   Bea and Joker's Daughter could stretch out another year of filler material/word salad.  Maybe Didio is looking to drive the book six feet under so he can justify to reboot a Bat-Verse where Dick Grayson "never existed."

----------


## nightbird

> I don't think DC is working on anything except rubbing our noses into excrement.  With four Wingiewanabees, each one of them is going to "need" 4-6 issues to establish their "backstories", motivations, origins, etc etc etc, so I can see up to two years tied up with that.   Bea and Joker's Daughter could stretch out another year of filler material/word salad.  Maybe Didio is looking to drive the book six feet under so he can justify to reboot a Bat-Verse where Dick Grayson "never existed."


No matter how bad Nightwing starts to sell, I doubt Didio would ever be able to erase Dick Grayson out of Bat-universe in comics world.

----------


## oasis1313

> No matter how bad Nightwing starts to sell, I doubt Didio would ever be able to erase Dick Grayson out of Bat-universe in comics world.


If he knew he wouldn't get any grief from Warners, I think he'd hand down that edict in a second.

----------


## Slim Shady

> I don't think DC is working on anything except rubbing our noses into excrement.  With four Wingiewanabees, each one of them is going to "need" 4-6 issues to establish their "backstories", motivations, origins, etc etc etc, so I can see up to two years tied up with that.   Bea and Joker's Daughter could stretch out another year of filler material/word salad.  Maybe Didio is looking to drive the book six feet under so he can justify to reboot a Bat-Verse where Dick Grayson "never existed."


I saw the June solicitation recently, it actually says....Ric Grayson and the Nightwings. That's just depressing.

----------


## Mr. White

> I saw the June solicitation recently, it actually says....Ric Grayson and the Nightwings. That's just depressing.


Sounds like a band...

----------


## Slim Shady

> Sounds like a band...


Ladies and gentlemen, all the way from the slums of Bludhaven, give it up for Ric Grayson and the Nightwings!

Yep you're right  :Big Grin:  They could cover Skid Row's "I Remember You" and Guns N Roses "Yesterdays".

Damn I need this storyline to end soon lol.

----------


## oasis1313

> I saw the June solicitation recently, it actually says....Ric Grayson and the Nightwings. That's just depressing.


The Flying Nightwings and Their Greasy Smurf Sidekick.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I am actually surprised a storyline that is this much despised by the readership has been allowed to continue for so long.  I read an interview with Chris Claremont some weeks back.  In it, he said that writers no longer come up with the stories or plots, editors did that and the writers wrote around what the editors wanted.  This story is proof this is nothing more than a vanity project for either the editor or (more likely) Didio who is pushing his agenda.  I gave up reading the book a few months back, wrote a letter even expressing my distaste for the storyline.  So sad to see that it is not only still going on, but with solicitations, appears that it's going to continue for some time still.

----------


## nightbird

> If he knew he wouldn't get any grief from Warners, I think he'd hand down that edict in a second.


Even if Warner was not interested in using Dick, erasing him from existence is a much harder step than just simply create character assassination situations (and moments) and/or keep him in unpleasant status quo.

----------


## nightbird

The kid who plays Shazam ends up with Nightwing as his answer.

----------


## oasis1313

> Even if Warner was not interested in using Dick, erasing him from existence is a much harder step than just simply create character assassination situations (and moments) and/or keep him in unpleasant status quo.


It'd depend on which ignoble end Didio found most satisfying to his giddy inner fanboy.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> No matter how bad Nightwing starts to sell, I doubt Didio would ever be able to erase Dick Grayson out of Bat-universe in comics world.


Yeah this is why he was pissed and was trying hard ever since he took office. Dick Grayson will always be bigger than him bc he existed right after Batman and created the mythos. You can’t erase him completely without Bruce himself going: what. Even if he somehow never existed in a rebooted main verse, he would still exist in every other world ever.

----------


## Rac7d*

Yall better not let him loose


If harley quinn can maneuver around the trinity then I dont see why Nightwing cant take on demigods
Show DCU we care and believe Dick can do anything

----------


## Rakiduam

> Yeah this is why he was pissed and was trying hard ever since he took office. Dick Grayson will always be bigger than him bc he existed right after Batman and created the mythos. You can’t erase him completely without Bruce himself going: what. Even if he somehow never existed in a rebooted main verse, he would still exist in every other world ever.


That is a nice thought but I don't think it's a realistic one any more, the New 52 erase a whole generation so Tim could be the founder of the Teen Titans, Barry is / was? the very first Flash, Alan Scott exists only on other earths, Jason is all of sudden to Titans.

Robin in particular has been so diluted, that no unique character is necessary anymore, without going further Murphy wrote White Knight with Jason as the first Robin and made no difference.

----------


## Pohzee

> Yall better not let him loose
> 
> 
> If harley quinn can maneuver around the trinity then I dont see why Nightwing cant take on demigods
> Show DCU we care and believe Dick can do anything


That's actually the best possible setup for Dick to possibly win. I'm concerned about Dick's ability to beat either the Flash or Darkseid, so I'm glad he doesn't have to take on both and one will knock out the other. 

I'm too lazy to remember to check when it goes up so just put the link in here.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That is a nice thought but I don't think it's a realistic one any more, the New 52 erase a whole generation so Tim could be the founder of the Teen Titans, Barry is / was? the very first Flash, Alan Scott exists only on other earths, Jason is all of sudden to Titans.
> 
> Robin in particular has been so diluted, that no unique character is necessary anymore, without going further Murphy wrote White Knight with Jason as the first Robin and made no difference.


Rebirth though, re-established the original Titans group (well, Titans Hunt did right before Rebirth, but still). Flash Rebirth has had brief periods of showing Jay. And, what do you mean Jason to Titans? You mean the series on DCU? Well, even in the comics, Jason was, if briefly, a member of the Teen Titans.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I don’t think it’s made no difference. New52 Jason and Tim got much back clash because they have to be turned into Dick to make those work. 

Maybe Jason worked for a darker Batman for White Knight verse. (We all know Dick wouldn’t follow and help built that Batman’s “mythos” lol.

Dick has been diluted, more so than ever,  but I meant you can never erase him completely from perception, both for characters like Bruce and readers.

----------


## Rac7d*

https://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za...ing-nightwing/

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, I think I’ve said this before but maybe the worse thing about Ric and this crap show is that it’s whaterver comes next that is gonna truly feel the effect of it. The diehards will come back, but everyone else why would they. Who is gonna wanna sign onto a character after such an embarrassingly poor and callous display.

----------


## oasis1313

> That is a nice thought but I don't think it's a realistic one any more, the New 52 erase a whole generation so Tim could be the founder of the Teen Titans, Barry is / was? the very first Flash, Alan Scott exists only on other earths, Jason is all of sudden to Titans.
> 
> Robin in particular has been so diluted, that no unique character is necessary anymore, without going further Murphy wrote White Knight with Jason as the first Robin and made no difference.


It's this that's been concerning me a lot lately.  The comics industry has got to be the best pay with the least responsibility--a true definition of a sinecure job.  Roy and Wally are gone, Donna is circling the drain--there's very little interest in those characters.  Nightwing is the only one of the bunch who sells, and he's being soaked in cyanide, as the article kindly linked today says, "a mercy killing."  I believe that with Johns gone, there's nobody to sweet-talk Didio out of following his fanboy urges.  Especially with the need to indulge Bendis, who is probably also pushing for the erasure of all things Not Timmy.

----------


## dietrich

*Agent 37*



https://twitter.com/methylly




https://twitter.com/gothamtwinks

----------


## dietrich

Dick and Babs by Marcus To

----------


## oasis1313

> https://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za...ing-nightwing/


Excellent article.  It makes it plain that the whole purpose of the "new direction" is to run the book so far into the ground that even its most hardcore fans will be begging to cancel it.

----------


## oasis1313

The term "strangled on the vine" comes to mind.  I believe the Fortress of Solitude article above that Didio is priming the book for cancellation then get his Big Death Issue in whatever Crisis he's pushing next.

----------


## Rac7d*

You dont need a profile to vote and keep submitting votes as much as you can. Dick hasnt had a win since his deathbattle against Daredevil, lets pull through for him

https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...se-final-four/         If we cant change the comcis we can at least get the streaming service to embrace the love for grayson

----------


## Pohzee

> You dont need a profile to vote and keep submitting votes as much as you can. Dick hasnt had a win since his deathbattle against Daredevil, lets pull through for him
> 
> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...se-final-four/         If we cant change the comcis we can at least get the streaming service to embrace the love for grayson


Not that I think this will have any actual impact on any content, but I would like to see Dick win. Who has the better chance of beating Dick? I think Flash does, so I'm voting Darkseid.

----------


## Frontier

> Dick and Babs by Marcus To


Can't tell if that's the Burnside costume or not...

----------


## oasis1313

It makes me wonder why Babs' book was "chosen for greatness" and Dick's book was "chosen for the sewer."

----------


## dietrich

*tfw you're basically invulnerable to pretty much everything but your resident bat has to keep throwing themselves in danger for you anyways
*


https://twitter.com/komieci

----------


## dietrich

*Robins*





https://twitter.com/gbj_Bellgreen



https://twitter.com/karo_robbin

----------


## nightbird

> *tfw you're basically invulnerable to pretty much everything but your resident bat has to keep throwing themselves in danger for you anyways
> *
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/komieci


Such a shame, that Dick can’t be a friends with Kara the same way he is a friends with Donna. 
But I like his relationship with Clark... at least before Nu-52.

----------


## Arsenal

Isnt Kara already Stephs kryptonian bestie? Or atleast pre-FP.

----------


## oasis1313

Does anybody know when the Heroes in Crisis crap is done with and we can settle down to proper mourning?

----------


## Arsenal

> Does anybody know when the Heroes in Crisis crap is done with and we can settle down to proper mourning?


Should be done next month (I think) unless there's some unexpected delays.

----------


## oasis1313

> Should be done next month (I think) unless there's some unexpected delays.


Thank goodness.  I feel like I'm on a death watch here.

----------


## Badou

> Isn’t Kara already Steph’s kryptonian bestie? Or atleast pre-FP.


She is closer to Babs since the New 52 I would say.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Isn’t Kara already Steph’s kryptonian bestie? Or atleast pre-FP.


Kara was pretty close to both Babs and Steph. But Dick was also a mentor/big brother figure to her pre-Flashpoint.

----------


## Ascended

> She is closer to Babs since the New 52 I would say.


Yeah, they definitely seem to be pushing Babs and Kara's friendship now. Well, "push" is a strong word, but when they want a girl's only World's Finest these days it's those two. Steph seems closer to Cass these days. 

But I dont think its actually that weird that no one has paired Dick up with a Super. There isn't a Super in Dick's age bracket; they're either younger (Kara, Conner, Jon), older (Steel), or DC doesn't care about them and barely remembers them (Natasha Irons, Power Girl). Valor/Mon-El would be a great duo for Dick, but that's kinda hard to do when the Legion's a thousand years in the future.

Power Girl would mix well with Dick (even outside the idea of shipping them) but DC would have to care first.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yeah, they definitely seem to be pushing Babs and Kara's friendship now. Well, "push" is a strong word, but when they want a girl's only World's Finest these days it's those two. Steph seems closer to Cass these days. 
> 
> But I dont think its actually that weird that no one has paired Dick up with a Super. There isn't a Super in Dick's age bracket; they're either younger (Kara, Conner, Jon), older (Steel), or DC doesn't care about them and barely remembers them (Natasha Irons, Power Girl). Valor/Mon-El would be a great duo for Dick, but that's kinda hard to do when the Legion's a thousand years in the future.
> 
> Power Girl would mix well with Dick (even outside the idea of shipping them) but DC would have to care first.


True. Of the Kryptonians, I would have Powergirl as Dick's Kryptonian friend. Though Clark was kind of an uncle to Dick, hence the fanart.

----------


## Ascended

Oh I love Uncle Clark. I think that might be one part of why Dick doesn't, and never has, had a Super equivalent. Dick already had a relationship with Superman that was pretty unique and cool. Of course, that seems largely forgotten these days.

----------


## dropkickjake

At risk of sounding like a broken record/scratched CD/corrupted mp3 file, Give him a younger Super and have Dick train them. preferably Lor Zod (though I'm not sure what he's up to in the current cannon).

----------


## Frontier

> Kara was pretty close to both Babs and Steph. But Dick was also a mentor/big brother figure to her pre-Flashpoint.


Suffice to say Supergirl and Batgirl are generally close no matter who is using the identity, just like with Flash and Green Lantern.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Suffice to say Supergirl and Batgirl are generally close no matter who is using the identity, just like with Flash and Green Lantern.


its usually Kara and babs

----------


## oasis1313

Yeah, I think it was an Elseworlds story they were calling Elsegirls.

----------


## Konja7

> Oh I love Uncle Clark. I think that might be one part of why Dick doesn't, and never has, had a Super equivalent. Dick already had a relationship with Superman that was pretty unique and cool. Of course, that seems largely forgotten these days.


The more likely reason is because DC doesn't want a Superboy character (which wasn't a young Clark) in the times Dick was Robin.

At that time, they want preserve the "unique" of Superman, so a Superboy (not young Clark) would be a problem. Of course, Supergirl wasn't a problem for them. 

So, Dick could never develop that kind of relationship with a member of the Superfamily.


PS: Jason only has a Super equivalent because Lobdell create one for him with Bizarro.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The more likely reason is because DC doesn't want a Superboy character (which wasn't a young Clark) in the times Dick was Robin.
> 
> At that time, they want preserve the "unique" of Superman, so a Superboy (not young Clark) would be a problem. Of course, Supergirl wasn't a problem for them. 
> 
> So, Dick could never develop that kind of relationship with a member of the Superfamily.


considering how much CLark adores him and he has bonds with every other super branch its cool

and so ends titans

----------


## dropkickjake

> considering how much CLark adores him and he has bonds with every other super branch its cool
> 
> and so ends titans


What’s that from?

----------


## Rac7d*

> What’s that from?


the final issue of titans

----------


## Godlike13

Last issue of Titans. Don’t get trapped, his conversation with Raven is still fundamentally degrading and regressive to the character. While it seems it has finally clicked with Abnett, at the very end, that Dick is the life blood of the the Titans. He still just either does not get it, or doesn’t care, and continues his underline message that Dick is driven by a need to impress the JL. Abnett should never ever write Dick again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Last issue of Titans. Don’t get trapped, his conversation with Raven is still fundamentally degrading and regressive to the character. While it seems it has finally clicked with Abnett, at the very end, that Dick is the life blood of the the Titans. He still just either does not get it, or doesn’t care, and continues his underline message that Dick is driven by* a need to impress the JL.* Abnett should never ever write Dick again.



Yeah that was messed up , Dick is 25 way past the make daddy proud thing, he put this team together to help vicmits of the source energy

----------


## L.H.

> Last issue of Titans. Don’t get trapped, his conversation with Raven is still fundamentally degrading and regressive to the character. While it seems it has finally clicked with Abnett, at the very end, that Dick is the life blood of the the Titans. He still just either does not get it, or doesn’t care, and continues his underline message that Dick is driven by a need to impress the JL. Abnett should never ever write Dick again.


Abnett really pissed me with his Dick. I've dropped Titans at #19 issues, and the only thing I liked about _Ric_'s crap was saving him from Abnett's awful writing.
Plus, that "THEN" means it's a flashback... No reason for me to check out.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Abnett really pissed me with his Dick. I've dropped Titans at #19 issues, and the only thing I liked about _Ric_'s crap was saving him from Abnett's awful writing.
> Plus, that "THEN" means it's a flashback... No reason for me to check out.


I miss the visual of him flying off rooftops though
also guys keeping voting for him
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...se-final-four/  you can vote as many times as you want

----------


## oasis1313

> Last issue of Titans. Don’t get trapped, his conversation with Raven is still fundamentally degrading and regressive to the character. While it seems it has finally clicked with Abnett, at the very end, that Dick is the life blood of the the Titans. He still just either does not get it, or doesn’t care, and continues his underline message that Dick is driven by a need to impress the JL. Abnett should never ever write Dick again.


Abnett should never be allowed to write Hallmark greeting cards, given his work for DC.  To think, I loved his Guardians of the Galaxy, but that must have all been Andy Lanning.

----------


## Godlike13

Well that’s a bit far.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well that’s a bit far.


Not intended as an attack on a creator--just not seeing the same quality of work.  If he despised the Titans so much, he could have just turned down the gig and DC would have given him a different assignment.  If DC wanted to pay me 500K a year to write a Tim Dreck book, I'd turn it it down because I couldn't do justice to a character I loathed so much; I honestly don't think I could swallow my acid-soaked hatred to that extent and it wouldn't be fair to the fans who do love Dreck for me to be bragging about "wiping my butt" with him.

----------


## L.H.

> I miss the visual of him flying off rooftops though
> also guys keeping voting for him
> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...se-final-four/  you can vote as many times as you want


I miss that too. Who is the artist?
Is there a way to vote on DCUniverse outside US?

----------


## Drako

> I miss that too. Who is the artist?
> Is there a way to vote on DCUniverse outside US?


Yes, by using free VPNs.

----------


## L.H.

> Yes, by using free VPNs.


Done! Thanks.

----------


## Restingvoice

> considering how much CLark adores him and he has bonds with every other super branch its cool
> 
> and so ends titans


Good art. I like when they draw a slick, shiny and smooth Dick. Innuendo totally intended. Who's the artist?

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, him grabbing that cable is one of the better acrobatic sequences I've seen from him in a while.

----------


## oasis1313

I like the baby blue twinkle-toes, too.

----------


## dietrich

https://twitter.com/Flaffizz

----------


## nightbird

Did they really cast Iain Glen as Batman in Titans? Because Bats will be 55-60 years old according to that then in Titans Universe.

----------


## byrd156

> Did they really cast Iain Glen as Batman in Titans? Because Bats will be 55-60 years old according to that then in Titans Universe.


I'm glad he's getting more work. I wouldn't have even have thought to cast him but this has me kinda excited.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm glad he's getting more work. I wouldn't have even have thought to cast him but this has me kinda excited.


Excellent choice!!!!!!!

----------


## dropkickjake

> Did they really cast Iain Glen as Batman in Titans? Because Bats will be 55-60 years old according to that then in Titans Universe.


That was my (second) thought as well. Batman is gonna look old.

My first thought was "Ser Jorah!"

----------


## Elmo

> Did they really cast Iain Glen as Batman in Titans? Because Bats will be 55-60 years old according to that then in Titans Universe.


that's definitely where they want to go, Titans has been slowly building Dick Grayson as his own hero and someone who will be as legendary as Batman. it's a slow process but Bruce has to be aging and nearing retirement for it to work

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Isn't that for the best? An older Bruce means we have an out-of-universe reason to focus on Dick and not Bruce as the future for heroes. An older Bruce means we'll actually get to see Bruce acting like a dad to Dick and Jason, too, which is great. The lack of an age gap is probably one of the biggest problems for Dick in the comics right now. And one more thing, an older Bruce should make for a nice parallel with Slade for the season, given that we'll likely see a lot of Dick, Jason, Joey, and Rose interacting with each other too.

Iain Glen is pretty awesome imo tho, so even without all the stuff I mentioned, I'd be pretty hype. Ser Jorah Mormont is quite the cool dude lol.

----------


## Konja7

> that's definitely where they want to go, Titans has been slowly building Dick Grayson as his own hero and someone who will be as legendary as Batman. it's a slow process but Bruce has to be aging and nearing retirement for it to work


Is there a way that Dick can become his own legend with Batman being 30-35?

I mean that's exactly one of the problems for Dick in comics. DC won't allow Bruce age.

----------


## Elmo

> Is there a way that Dick can become his own legend with Batman being 30-35?
> 
> I mean that's exactly one of the problems for Dick in comics. DC won't allow Bruce age.


it has nothing to do with Bruce's age; regardless of how old he is the storyline and Dick's journey hold the same weight (talking about the idea of Dick Grayson's evolution throughout media, not just Titans) . However Batman's role in the show is meant to be a father figure, so him being 30-35 while Dick is well into his 20's simply wouldn't work. The problems for Dick in the comics lie solely with the publishers and management of the character, not Bruce's age. Bruce doesn't need to age, there should just be more heroes that are as popular or more popular than he is, once in a while

----------


## Jackalope89

> it has nothing to do with Bruce's age; regardless of how old he is the storyline and Dick's journey hold the same weight (talking about the idea of Dick Grayson's evolution throughout media, not just Titans) . However Batman's role in the show is meant to be a father figure, so him being 30-35 while Dick is well into his 20's simply wouldn't work. The problems for Dick in the comics lie solely with the publishers and management of the character, not Bruce's age. *Bruce doesn't need to age,* there should just be more heroes that are as popular or more popular than he is, once in a while


Bah! I want old and cranky Bruce, grumbling about being made into a grandpa by his kids, with Mar'i pestering him with a book for storytime and the other ones playing with toys that normally wouldn't pass for toys in most houses. Some of which are full on human, others are half-human or have meta-human powers.

I'll let who has what be your guess.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Bah! I want old and cranky Bruce, grumbling about being made into a grandpa by his kids, with Mar'i pestering him with a book for storytime and the other ones playing with toys that normally wouldn't pass for toys in most houses. Some of which are full on human, others are half-human or have meta-human powers.
> 
> I'll let who has what be your guess.


I want them all. Mar'i, Jake, John, that one kid Dick has in Beyond, Athanasia, Helena...

----------


## Jackalope89

> I want them all. Mar'i, Jake, John, that one kid Dick has in Beyond, Athanasia, Helena...


Same. Give Tim and Jason some kids too! Tim with Steph, and Jason with, dare I say, Artemis!? 

Hmmm. Bruce dealing with half-Amazonian grandkids running around, half-Tamaranian kids flying around, half-assassin kids sneaking around, and half Tim kids stalking everyone else! 

Come on DC, do it! Grandpa Bruce on babysitting duty!

----------


## nightbird

After reading all your thoughts guys... It seems like the chances of us getting Dick Grayson/Nightwing/Robin in DCEU is so slim right now. Like they literally want to make a movie about young and inexperienced Batman, and I doubt DC/WB into idea of creating kid/teen sidekick.

----------


## nightbird

> it has nothing to do with Bruce's age; regardless of how old he is the storyline and Dick's journey hold the same weight (talking about the idea of Dick Grayson's evolution throughout media, not just Titans) . However Batman's role in the show is meant to be a father figure, so him being 30-35 while Dick is well into his 20's simply wouldn't work. The problems for Dick in the comics lie solely with the publishers and management of the character, not Bruce's age. Bruce doesn't need to age, there should just be more heroes that are as popular or more popular than he is, once in a while


Well I expected him to be 40-45 thanks to that body double in last episode. Not someone who is pushing his 60s. But maybe it’s for the good. 

But I can’t wait to see second season of Titans. Didn’t even think that they would be able to bring whole Slade family + Bats into the show.

----------


## bearman

I personally never liked Bruce as any sort of a father figure. I saw him as an older brother. It simplifies the dynamics in the relationship, I think.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I miss the visual of him flying off rooftops though
> also guys keeping voting for him
> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...se-final-four/  you can vote as many times as you want


Sorry guy just gotta ask that you guys keep voting for dick , I want the dcu to see he has an audience that wants him

----------


## Arsenal

NIGHTWING #62
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by BRUNO REDONDO
variant cover by GREG CAPULLO
After the epic conclusion to the Burnback saga, it’s clear that while he may have forgotten his past, Ric Grayson’s innate skills and instincts as a team leader elevate Team Nightwing to a new level. But what does that mean for the Blüdhaven PD, and what does that mean for a man who is looking to live a life without the baggage of his past to hold him down? Ric seeks comfort in Bea’s arms, but may find answers in another’s Talons as we dive headlong into the Year of the Villain!
Plus, Lex Luthor delivers the Court of Owls the means to own what they covet most: Ric Grayson.
ON SALE 07.17.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
CARD STOCK VARIANT COVER $4.99
FC | RATED T
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details

----------


## Pohzee

There's no end in sight.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Maybe Tim is going to be Nightwing if it’s permanent.

----------


## Badou

The real reason Dick is isolated in Bludhaven and why the Ric story is going on for so long was confirmed in the Batman #75 solicit. King wanted Dick out of the way so he could have someone else take up the Batman identity while Bruce is off in his desert. _"Gotham City, taken control and are ruling with an iron fistincluding rounding up any villain who refuses to sign onto Banes programand Batman is nowhere to be found. At least not the Batman anyone knows. Its like someone has replaced the real Gotham City with a twisted funhouse-mirror version of it."_ is what it says in the solicit. Originally King wanted this to be Duke so we will see if that holds true but King didn't want it to be Dick so he needed him out of the way. 

And I'm not all that excited to see the Court again. I know some readers LOVE the Court of Owls but I'm pretty mixed on it still. The whole thing was built around Bruce and Dick was just a pawn in it, and it also turned Haly's Circus into something dark that can't be undone. Of course if Talon kills Ric and replaces him with the real Dick then I'd call the Court my favorite thing in the whole world, lol. But this looks to just be some tie in to another DC event. That Year of Villains thing Snyder is doing. So I'm not really expecting anything from it given how Dick gets treated like garbage in events anyway. 

Also it was interesting to see that in the Event Leviathan #2 solicit Batgirl and Red Hood were mentioned in it. So I'd bet that Dick appearing in it will just be a flashback and won't be actively involved in the story.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I personally never liked Bruce as any sort of a father figure. I saw him as an older brother. It simplifies the dynamics in the relationship, I think.


Yeah, I imagine Bruce as more of an older brother figure to Dick than a father figure. The age difference isn't really that big to justify Dick viewing him as a father the way tumblr seemingly wants us to.

----------


## dietrich

Leonardo as Nightwing [official art for Batman/TMNT3

----------


## Arsenal

and Batman is nowhere to be found. At least not the Batman anyone knows. It’s like someone has replaced the real Gotham City with a twisted funhouse-mirror version of it.

Sounds more like B-man who laughs than any of Batboys filling in.

----------


## Pohzee

> and Batman is nowhere to be found. At least not the Batman anyone knows. It’s like someone has replaced the real Gotham City with a twisted funhouse-mirror version of it.
> 
> Sounds more like B-man who laughs than any of Batboys filling in.


Fug. My first thought was FP Batman returning, but I'll be pissed if tBWL shows up for the climax.

----------


## Ascended

Im guessing Flashpoint Tomas Wayne as well. 

Didn't King bring FlashBat back? And the Batman Who Laughs is all over Snyder's titles. Seems more likely that King would use Tomas instead of Laughy to me.

----------


## Badou

Thomas Wayne is with Bruce in the desert. He is the one that brought him there. So I don't think it will be him. I think Duke is still a likely option, but it might be someone like Kite Man that King spent a lot of time on too that takes over as Batman.

----------


## OWL45

> The real reason Dick is isolated in Bludhaven and why the Ric story is going on for so long was confirmed in the Batman #75 solicit. King wanted Dick out of the way so he could have someone else take up the Batman identity while Bruce is off in his desert. _"Gotham City, taken control and are ruling with an iron fist—including rounding up any villain who refuses to sign onto Bane’s program—and Batman is nowhere to be found. At least not the Batman anyone knows. It’s like someone has replaced the real Gotham City with a twisted funhouse-mirror version of it."_ is what it says in the solicit. Originally King wanted this to be Duke so we will see if that holds true but King didn't want it to be Dick so he needed him out of the way. 
> 
> And I'm not all that excited to see the Court again. I know some readers LOVE the Court of Owls but I'm pretty mixed on it still. The whole thing was built around Bruce and Dick was just a pawn in it, and it also turned Haly's Circus into something dark that can't be undone. Of course if Talon kills Ric and replaces him with the real Dick then I'd call the Court my favorite thing in the whole world, lol. But this looks to just be some tie in to another DC event. That Year of Villains thing Snyder is doing. So I'm not really expecting anything from it given how Dick gets treated like garbage in events anyway. 
> 
> Also it was interesting to see that in the Event Leviathan #2 solicit Batgirl and Red Hood were mentioned in it. So I'd bet that Dick appearing in it will just be a flashback and won't be actively involved in the story.


Ya I personally like the Court of Owls and Dicks ties to it but for those that don’t I think the positive is that it brings Dick closer to his regular status quo. Ric is a very far departure and a poor one at that. I will take the Court of Owls any day over what we currently have.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Isn't that for the best? An older Bruce means we have an out-of-universe reason to focus on Dick and not Bruce as the future for heroes. An older Bruce means we'll actually get to see Bruce acting like a dad to Dick and Jason, too, which is great. The lack of an age gap is probably one of the biggest problems for Dick in the comics right now. And one more thing, an older Bruce should make for a nice parallel with Slade for the season, given that we'll likely see a lot of Dick, Jason, Joey, and Rose interacting with each other too.
> 
> Iain Glen is pretty awesome imo tho, so even without all the stuff I mentioned, I'd be pretty hype. Ser Jorah Mormont is quite the cool dude lol.


Nothing that include Jason is good for Dick, and include Batman is not for the best in a TITANS show, it shouldn't be tied tothe bat family.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I hope that Talon is Dick's grandfather and he brings his memories back or something

----------


## oasis1313

> I hope that Talon is Dick's grandfather and he brings his memories back or something


Isn't that Willyam Cobb and he's Dick's great-great-grandpappy or thereabouts?

----------


## dietrich

> The real reason Dick is isolated in Bludhaven and why the Ric story is going on for so long was confirmed in the Batman #75 solicit. King wanted Dick out of the way so he could have someone else take up the Batman identity while Bruce is off in his desert. _"Gotham City, taken control and are ruling with an iron fistincluding rounding up any villain who refuses to sign onto Banes programand Batman is nowhere to be found. At least not the Batman anyone knows. Its like someone has replaced the real Gotham City with a twisted funhouse-mirror version of it."_ is what it says in the solicit. Originally King wanted this to be Duke so we will see if that holds true but King didn't want it to be Dick so he needed him out of the way.


Agree. My guess is it's Thomas Wayne since the next solicits say bruce faces off against him for the right to be Batman.

----------


## Godlike13

My guess is it’s Bane.

----------


## dietrich

> My guess is it’s Bane.


I thought for sure Bane too until  I saw those solicits.

----------


## OWL45

> I hope that Talon is Dick's grandfather and he brings his memories back or something


Thats my thinking. Cobb isnt like the Bat Family and going to accept Ric Grayson and back off leaving him alone.

----------


## OWL45

Yes he is Dick’s Great Grandfather.

----------


## Robanker

Getting the the point where I just CTRL+F solicits for "Ric" to see if Nightwing remains unreadable.

----------


## Pohzee

> Getting the the point where I just CTRL+F solicits for "Ric" to see if Nightwing remains unreadable.


I'm at the point where I no longer seek out the Nightwing solicits because I know nothing will have changed.

----------


## Elmo

> Well I expected him to be 40-45 thanks to that body double in last episode. Not someone who is pushing his 60s. But maybe it’s for the good. 
> 
> But I can’t wait to see second season of Titans. Didn’t even think that they would be able to bring whole Slade family + Bats into the show.


Since the last episode was a dream sequence I don't think anything can be considered canon from that episode, the intention was to show the idea of Batman rather than the character himself

I'm HYPED to see where they're going with Slade and Batman, and how Superboy fits in

----------


## nightbird

> Since the last episode was a dream sequence I don't think anything can be considered canon from that episode, the intention was to show the idea of Batman rather than the character himself
> 
> I'm HYPED to see where they're going with Slade and Batman, and how Superboy fits in


That dream sequence I think should still fit into some type of actual reality. Bruce suddenly getting younger, when Dick himself married and with kid would not fit in any type of reality in Dick’s mind no matter how much he is brainwashed to believe that everything happening around him is real. Or maybe Iain Glen would look different ones they make a Batman costume to him. 

I just hope in the middle of all these constantly growing cast members (and possible storylines) they still going to focus mainly on first four... well, at least on Dick and his transformation to Nightwing lol

----------


## oasis1313

I'm thinking that Tim should be wholly owned by the Bendis-Verse and written out of all Bat-Lore.  Then de-age Dick to about 18-19, Jason to 17, and Damian to 10 and start the cycles over.

----------


## Rac7d*

We got to the finals lets take home for the best birdboy yall

[IMG]https://imgix-media.wbdndc.net/cms/filer_public/af/a9/afa9efad-82cb-491f-a3b4-076aec6cf25c/metamadhouse**************-bracket-v1.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/meta...ionship-round/

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Ascended

You know, I dunno if DC is actually using the poll from the streaming service for anything but I bet it would make for viable (or at least interesting) market research. 

Obviously the people who sub to the DCU service won't perfectly represent the comic buying audience, but I'm willing to bet, especially with the service still being less than a year old, that a whole lot of subscribers are also comic fans. 

If nothing else, I feel like the publishing arm should at least keep an eye on the data the streaming service collects.

----------


## oasis1313

> You know, I dunno if DC is actually using the poll from the streaming service for anything but I bet it would make for viable (or at least interesting) market research. 
> 
> Obviously the people who sub to the DCU service won't perfectly represent the comic buying audience, but I'm willing to bet, especially with the service still being less than a year old, that a whole lot of subscribers are also comic fans. 
> 
> If nothing else, I feel like the publishing arm should at least keep an eye on the data the streaming service collects.


DC probably has some intern putting up polls.  Ascended, my friend, you are thinking like a businessman--not a fanboy.

----------


## Rac7d*

> DC probably has some intern putting up polls.  Ascended, my friend, you are thinking like a businessman--not a fanboy.


It may be, but whatever platform that can give so much overdo love to Nightwing I will take, Hopefully someone see's it and says ""hey we should put this guy up front people like him"

----------


## Ascended

> DC probably has some intern putting up polls.  Ascended, my friend, you are thinking like a businessman--not a fanboy.


Thanks?  :Smile:  Seems I struggle with the fanboy mentality more and more these days. It's all tax codes and supply-demand curves in my head now.

Seriously though, what the hell is the point of interns if you don't make them do pointless, boring stuff no one else wants to do? (and get coffee, of course) Collecting, organizing, and graphing data points is exactly the sort of thing some unpaid kid should be doing! 

Maybe DC isn't paying any attention to this particular poll (or anything else the DCU app is doing) but it'd seem an erogenous mistake beyond even DC's usual screw ups to ignore a multimedia platform that's currently running two of the most popular streaming shows in America. Obviously an informal poll (that we can vote on multiple times) shouldnt be taken as gospel but its still relevant data that should be taken into account. 

We all know I have damn little faith in DC's management but I cant imagine they're not doing data collection and research. I mean, even NPO's do that, and those organizations are always underfunded and scrambling for cash. If they can do relevant research there's no way DC/WB cant.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Thanks?  Seems I struggle with the fanboy mentality more and more these days. It's all tax codes and supply-demand curves in my head now.
> 
> Seriously though, what the hell is the point of interns if you don't make them do pointless, boring stuff no one else wants to do? (and get coffee, of course) Collecting, organizing, and graphing data points is exactly the sort of thing some unpaid kid should be doing! 
> 
> Maybe DC isn't paying any attention to this particular poll (or anything else the DCU app is doing) but it'd seem an erogenous mistake beyond even DC's usual screw ups to ignore a multimedia platform that's currently running two of the most popular streaming shows in America. Obviously an informal poll (that we can vote on multiple times) shouldnt be taken as gospel but its still relevant data that should be taken into account. 
> 
> We all know I have damn little faith in DC's management but I cant imagine they're not doing data collection and research. I mean, even NPO's do that, and those organizations are always underfunded and scrambling for cash. If they can do relevant research there's no way DC/WB cant.


IF by dc you Mean Geoff or Jim proably not but DCU is and that alone can help Dick. Itll be 10 years before he will ever get a film, who know where he will end up in the comcis, so best bet is his presence in in DCU.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Maybe DC isn't paying any attention to this particular poll (or anything else the DCU app is doing) but it'd seem an *erogenous* mistake beyond even DC's usual screw ups to ignore a multimedia platform that's currently running two of the most popular streaming shows in America.


Egregious*? Autocorrect? Freudian slip? Intentional and cleverest *Dick* Grayson joke of all time?

----------


## Ascended

> Egregious*? Autocorrect? Freudian slip? Intentional and cleverest *Dick* Grayson joke of all time?


Ha! I'll never tell!!

Nah, I was just working on my first cup of coffee and must've got my "e" words confused. lol I dont brain too gooder until I've drank about half a pot.

But let's just pretend it was a intentional and clever "Dick" joke, yeah?  :Big Grin:  Makes me look smarter that way.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> IF by dc you Mean Geoff or Jim proably not but DCU is and that alone can help Dick. Itll be 10 years before he will ever get a film, who know where he will end up in the comcis, so best bet is his presence in in DCU.


Do we have confirmation about the kind of stuff DC does for market research? I've never heard much about it. The pro's say they "listen to fans" (which sounds like pandering to me most of the time) and there was that one horribly handled survey when the New52 started, but otherwise I never hear about what DC does to collect and analyze data. I mean, I assume they must do some kind of market research because that's just what a company does, But I feel like most companies are more transparent about how they get their information and where it comes from. 

Maybe DC is more vocal about it than I realize and Ive just never caught it. 

In any case, I'm less concerned about whether the company does market research (I mean, they must, right?) than I am with what upper administrators do with it. A company can do quality, informative research and still have someone in the chain of command just totally disregard it. And looking at Dick and his situation it's hard to imagine that any kind of research supports the things they're doing with him. I dont get as deep into the "they sabotage Nightwing on purpose!" bandwagon as some of us here do, but I've put serious thought into the topic (more than I should) and given the information we fans have access to......it doesnt add up.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Do we have confirmation about the kind of stuff DC does for market research? I've never heard much about it. The pro's say they "listen to fans" (which sounds like pandering to me most of the time) and there was that one horribly handled survey when the New52 started, but otherwise I never hear about what DC does to collect and analyze data. I mean, I assume they must do some kind of market research because that's just what a company does, But I feel like most companies are more transparent about how they get their information and where it comes from. 
> 
> Maybe DC is more vocal about it than I realize and Ive just never caught it. 
> 
> In any case, I'm less concerned about whether the company does market research (I mean, they must, right?) than I am with what upper administrators do with it. A company can do quality, informative research and still have someone in the chain of command just totally disregard it. And looking at Dick and his situation it's hard to imagine that any kind of research supports the things they're doing with him. I dont get as deep into the "they sabotage Nightwing on purpose!" bandwagon as some of us here do, but I've put serious thought into the topic (more than I should) and given the information we fans have access to......it doesnt add up.


If they didnt do market reaserch Harley quinn would not be where she is

anyway
We did it! 
Yay!
Lo hicimos!
We did it!



Boy wonder in blue takes it home

Yes, the stalwart Dick Grayson proved that super powers aren't necessary when someone has street smarts, cunning, and one of the most head-turning physiques in the DC Universe. Nightwing scored 10004 votes to the Scarlet Speedster's 8438.

"In this week's first round, the winners won solidly, with a couple of exceptions... The two Suicide Squad teammates, Katana and Deadshot, fought down to the wire, with Katana winning by less than 3%. Deathstroke and Red Hood were also evenly matched, with Deathstroke taking the win by less than 3%. 
But it wasn’t close in this week's final round. *Nightwing absolutely destroyed Deathstroke* by the largest margin in the tournament -- more than triple the number of votes Deathstroke got."

----------


## Godlike13

Thats pretty cool.

----------


## Ascended

> If they didnt do market reaserch Harley quinn would not be where she is


Ha! Good point!  :Smile: 




> anyway
> We did it!


Nice! Good for you Nightwing! Good for us, Nightwing fans! 

Really, when Dick Grayson wins, everybody wins.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godlike13

New interview, 
https://www.newsarama.com/44761-jurg...n-baggage.html

We’re so screwed. We are gonna be 10 issues in here and all he's telling us how he thinks there is potential in what can be done with this situation. Awesome. Thing is we are way frigging past that at this point, and the fact that he's not revealing absolutely anything about what he plans to with this situation, or how he plans to reach that potential, is rather alarming. We'll experience as we read it, oh that's reassuring. Clearly it seems they are still just making this up as they go, with whomever the hell they can find to come up with whatever they can. Which has been the real problem with this situation. Not so much the idea behind it. Personally speaking i get the idea behind Ric, what i don't get is the constant insulting of the Dick to his own readers, or how that idea turned into a blatant rip off of We Are Robin with Dick as their homeless sidekick.
But hey at least he acknowledged there’s a segment of fans who are frustrated with the direction. Still if anything about this was about enhancing Dick's "rich tapestry of story", they wouldn't have done nothing but belittle and insult the character over and over for 8 issues, and you wouldn't being implying that Dick was tarnished. Ric might be "untarnished by Batman’s touch", but guess what Lobdell tarnished the holy hell out of him. So good luck with Ric the homeless sidekick of his own superhero persona.

----------


## nightbird

> If they didnt do market reaserch Harley quinn would not be where she is
> 
> anyway
> We did it! 
> Yay!
> Lo hicimos!
> We did it!
> 
> 
> ...


Yet DC more eager to promote Deathstroke and wants to update him to be Bats’ villain.

Congratulations to Nighwting and thank you for voting for him, guys=)

----------


## dropkickjake

Jurgens seems like he is really doing his best to PR spin the dumpster fire. "Needing four people to replace one person speaks well of Richard Grayson." Too bad that "really delving into" the 'Nightwings' means less pages for the only Nightwing we want to read about. It's insane how long this has gone on.

----------


## bearman

I have to agree, DC certainly screwed the pooch on this one.
 I think for most of us, the attraction to Dick wasn’t for his admittedly world class fighting skills,or other “muscle memory “ tricks... it was his relationships and leadership that defined him, and made hm special. And that’s whats been stripped away.

----------


## disillusion386

> I have to agree, DC certainly screwed the pooch on this one.
>  I think for most of us, the attraction to Dick wasn’t for his admittedly world class fighting skills,or other “muscle memory “ tricks... it was his relationships and leadership that defined him, and made hm special. And that’s whats been stripped away.


Yep, exactly right. The whole Ric arc could have been interesting if it was used as a way to examine his relationships, how his friends/family reacted to him being shot, why he's important to the rest of the DC universe. Instead only the least interesting aspects of his character were kept, essentially creating an entirely new and boring person just going through the motions of vigilantism.

----------


## Badou

> New interview, 
> https://www.newsarama.com/44761-jurg...n-baggage.html
> 
> Were so screwed. We are gonna be 10 issues in here and all he's telling us how he thinks there is potential in what can be done with this situation. Awesome. Thing is we are way frigging past that at this point, and the fact that he's not revealing absolutely anything about what he plans to with this situation, or how he plans to reach that potential, is rather alarming. We'll experience as we read it, oh that's reassuring. Clearly it seems they are still just making this up as they go, with whomever the hell they can find to come up with whatever they can. Which has been the real problem with this situation. Not so much the idea behind it. Personally speaking i get the idea behind Ric, what i don't get is the constant insulting of the Dick to his own readers, or how that idea turned into a blatant rip off of We Are Robin with Dick as their homeless sidekick.
> But hey at least he acknowledged theres a segment of fans who are frustrated with the direction. Still if anything about this was about enhancing Dick's "rich tapestry of story", they wouldn't have done nothing but belittle and insult the character over and over for 8 issues, and you wouldn't being implying that Dick was tarnished. Ric might be "untarnished by Batmans touch", but guess what Lobdell tarnished the holy hell out of him. So good luck with Ric the homeless sidekick of his own superhero persona.


The only bit of truth in that whole interview was when Jurgens acknowledged a group of fans not liking the current direction. The rest was bullshit. Him going on and on about how much potiental there is in it or how this is a great chance to write Dick without Batman's influence was all crap. It has been close to 8 months now and to talk about this stupid direction in this way speaks to how creatively bankrupt the whole idea is, but they continue it because it is editorial mandated. I get he is trying to sell his run to people, but I can't imagine that anyone with an ounce of intelligence bought into anything he said here. If they did then they are idiots. He doesn't care about this run or direction any more than Lobdell did or that young writer that was writing Lobdell's scripts did. Their Newsarama interviews were exactly the same where they spent the whole interview saying absolutely nothing by doing the minimal amount to try and spin it into something interesting when they have no real investment in what they are writing. 

It is unbelievably frustrating that they continue to spend time on all of this crap. These useless Nightwings, the shit hole that is Bludhaven, or this love interest that no one cares about. This has been going on since October but now they want to write about Dick's history outside of Batman? Where was the in depth focus on Haly's Circus or his parents in the months and months we got before this shit? I'd love to see someone at some panel just roast DC and the Bat office for all this crap but that probably won't ever happen. My big fear is that DC and the Batman office try to turn this Ric story into some MAJOR thing and spend years and years referencing it as being such a major turning point for the character and talk about how important it was because they refuse to admit what a disaster it has been. I can see them doing that unfortunately.

----------


## Godlike13

Unfortunately, ya I can also see that. Rather then risk any culpability, or admit that anyone did a bad job, theyll just spin it. I feel like we already seen Lobdell try to spin it as readers not giving it a chance.

----------


## Badou

There are still people out there that defend the story and say it isn't as bad as people think. So I can see DC just running with it for years and trying to win the long game where they just wear people down and eventually win by making people think it was such a seminal event for the character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Unfortunately, ya I can also see that. Rather then risk any culpability, or admit that anyone did a bad job, they’ll just spin it. I feel like we already seen Lobdell try to spin it as readers not giving it a chance.


we have given him chances and thank you next

----------


## Elmo

> There are still people out there that defend the story and say it isn't as bad as people think. So I can see DC just running with it for years and trying to win the long game where they just wear people down and eventually win by making people think it was such a seminal event for the character.


No, I refuse it. This cannot continue.

----------


## byrd156

> No, I refuse it. This cannot continue.


It'll end sooner or later. We need to be more vocal about our distain for the direction. If anyone here is still buying, please stop.

----------


## Badou

> No, I refuse it. This cannot continue.


I mean Dick will be back calling himself Dick and be Nightwing again this year, but what I mean is that I can see DC constantly referencing and using this Ric garbage for years to come to try and make it seem like it was some big turning point and story for the character and not treating it like the disaster it really is.

----------


## Restingvoice

for it to be a disaster, it needs to be a disaster first. For them. And sales not going down.

----------


## Badou

> for it to be a disaster, it needs to be a disaster first. For them. And sales not going down.


The big and exciting direction change that was tied into and spawned from DC's highest selling solo book (Batman) resulted in zero gain. Historically the book is selling at around the lowest levels in Nightwing's history, and without the variant cover incentives it would be the lowest in Nightwing's history likely. Nightwing has a floor in terms of the minimum it will sell because it is a fairly popular IP and it is at that now. It won't suddenly tank into the sub 20Ks. 

When you do a sudden direction change and put new creative talent on the book that usually results in a bump in sales. The Batgirl series saw this and she has been selling ahead of Nightwing for a while I think. So when you add that to the fan reaction and how creators are kind of fleeing the book I would call it a disaster, but I know DC never will.

----------


## Godlike13

> for it to be a disaster, it needs to be a disaster first. For them. And sales not going down.


Because current sales are already at the floor. The point was to get it off the floor, like we saw with Batgirl. Ric has done nothing, a foil cover did more. And whats more with all the development mess no more double ship. They'll also see the true impact of Ric with the next thing they try to do with Dick.

----------


## Restingvoice

Go lower! XD 
It's not 0, so it should be able to go down further

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Well someone asked Grant Morrison today in his Reddit AMA if he had any plans to ever write Dick again and the answer was "I love the character but no." 

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...eator/el4nyoj/

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> There are still people out there that defend the story and say it isn't as bad as people think. So I can see DC just running with it for years and trying to win the long game where they just wear people down and eventually win by making people think it was such a seminal event for the character.


I can't see an amnesia story be dragged out for years. I think it'll probably be wrapped up by the end of 2019, if not this time next year.

----------


## Godlike13

He saying he could see DC trying to refer back to it as a pivotal story in the character’s history for years to come, instead of the poorly edited and executed lazy trash that it actually is. Not that it’s going to actually last for years.

----------


## Ascended

> It'll end sooner or later. We need to be more vocal about our distain for the direction. If anyone here is still buying, please stop.


Also, when the new (old) direction returns, get your friends to buy it too. Talk about it online, recommend it to everyone. As long as its good, of course. If quality Nightwing can raise the sales ceiling, DC will have more reason to put effort into it. And yes, if sales fall they'll also have more incentive to put in some effort. Punish the crappy Nightwing, but reward the good ones. That's how you raise kids and keep a company honest.

----------


## Badou

> I can't see an amnesia story be dragged out for years. I think it'll probably be wrapped up by the end of 2019, if not this time next year.


Yeah, I said I think the amnesia thing will end this year but I can see DC using this terrible Ric story as a reference point for years and years afterwards inflating its "importance".

----------


## bearman

Comrades,
 I have to make it stop somehow.
We are all here because of our loyalty to the Dick Grayson character.
 I admit I have had some rewarding times recently....Dick taking over as Batman, training a new Robin,  leading the young Justice team on television, leaving Gotham to become a world- trotting spy... but that’s all gone.
Grayson has been my favorite character for a very long time. I bought “Robin Dies at Dawn” off the racks.
But this is one of the worst funny books I ever read.
I will be stepping away from it.
I will check in here on occasion to see if Dick ever returns, and is no longer kicked around by editorial.

----------


## WonderNight

No longer kicked around by editorial :Confused:  Dick would need to leave both the bat office and the titans for that to happen.

----------


## Jackalope89

> No longer kicked around by editorial Dick would need to leave both the bat office and the titans for that to happen.


Guys like Didio would need to leave DC first.

----------


## oasis1313

How to get a job where we all could produce such rotten product and still get paid?

----------


## RickWJ324

I just read the latest issue and have to agree that I'm officially off of this book until the real Dick Grayson returns as Nightwing.  This book is really bad (artwork and storyline).  I'll check in on the status of the title every now and then, but not another dollar will be spent on this title until something changes.

I'm also growing tired of the current storyline in Aquaman.  While not as bad as "Amnesiac Ric" I'm not enjoying "Amnesiac Andy" in the Aquaman title either.

----------


## Fergus

RobinDick made an appearance in the Batman who laughs.

----------


## Vordan

> Yeah, I said I think the amnesia thing will end this year but I can see DC using this terrible Ric story as a reference point for years and years afterwards inflating its "importance".


I dont. Its not selling very well and whoever gets the book post-Ric is going to want to do their own thing.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Comrades,
>  I have to make it stop somehow.
> We are all here because of our loyalty to the Dick Grayson character.
>  I admit I have had some rewarding times recently....Dick taking over as Batman, training a new Robin,  leading the young Justice team on television, leaving Gotham to become a world- trotting spy... but that’s all gone.
> Grayson has been my favorite character for a very long time. I bought “Robin Dies at Dawn” off the racks.
> But this is one of the worst funny books I ever read.
> I will be stepping away from it.
> I will check in here on occasion to see if Dick ever returns, and is no longer kicked around by editorial.


After having been a Dick Grayson fan for almost forty years and buying EVERY Nightwing related book...I have stopped as well.  It's sad.  Feel like I have lost an old friend.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No longer kicked around by editorial Dick would need to leave both the bat office and the titans for that to happen.


Their is no being free of it his only hope is become so important they cant quell him . So as such the the Harley Quinn route . I personally feel as if he was sabotaged last year between rick thing happenening right before titans and young justice.  But here we go for round two if this rick  stick ends by summer for young justice and get rolling back with nightwing in time for his live action debut on Titans then he has a chance

----------


## oasis1313

Didio decided to take the slow approach to killing off Dick Grayson.

----------


## Rakiduam

> RobinDick made an appearance in the Batman who laughs.


Oh that's fantasitic.

----------


## Rac7d*

i know this aint real but

----------


## oasis1313

But it MIGHT be, someday--thanks for the preview!

----------


## Frontier

> i know this aint real but


Dang, it looked real  :EEK!: .

----------


## Arsenal

> i know this aint real but


That’s actually pretty nice (even if it is fake)

----------


## byrd156

> Oh that's fantasitic.


Very cool reference.

----------


## Rac7d*

this batman was channeling the nightwing

----------


## dropkickjake

> Very cool reference.


 yeah, gonna need the same sequence in Nightwing garb now.

----------


## Ascended

> this batman was channeling the nightwing


Yeah he was. That was pretty fun. 

I imagine a lot more flipping and jumping when Dick fights, but the calculated movement, quick, direct combos and counters are spot on for Nightwing.

----------


## oasis1313

Is that a dancing panda bear in the video?

----------


## CPSparkles

Easter Egg






https://twitter.com/JarrulusX

----------


## oasis1313

This is adorable!  The perfect thing for Easter!

----------


## Frontier

> Easter Egg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JarrulusX


Happy Easter  :Smile: .

(Sorry Jason).

----------


## JoeZ

> I just read the latest issue and have to agree that I'm officially off of this book until the real Dick Grayson returns as Nightwing.  This book is really bad (artwork and storyline).  I'll check in on the status of the title every now and then, but not another dollar will be spent on this title until something changes.
> 
> I'm also growing tired of the current storyline in Aquaman.  While not as bad as "Amnesiac Ric" I'm not enjoying "Amnesiac Andy" in the Aquaman title either.


I came here to see if I can go back to the book, but  :Frown:

----------


## RickWJ324

> I came here to see if I can go back to the book, but


I plan on keeping an eye on the title to see when/if it gets back on track.  However, the title is officially dropped by me until some changes are made.  It's just not worth it at the moment.

----------


## Ascended

I dropped it ages ago. But I keep an eye on the forums, previews and solicits, and when Nightwing makes his return so will I. 

Ive never supported a book I didnt enjoy; I wont tell the publishers (with my wallet) they're doing a good job when they aren't.

----------


## JoeZ

I'm trying to get back to the comics, but sometimes it's hard for me to accept what they're doing with Dick, Wally, Roy, Garth, Gar, Vic, Raven, Kory and Donna.
Since the reboot they have never been the same.  :Frown:

----------


## Ascended

Sh*t, they haven't been the same since 1993.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Anyone have the sales trends for the title recently?  Apologies if it's already been posted and I missed it.

----------


## Arsenal

> Anyone have the sales trends for the title recently?  Apologies if it's already been posted and I missed it.


If I’m remembering right, the pre & post Ric sales are roughly the same.

----------


## Godlike13

To further elaborate though, sales right before Ric weren't good and the title had basically reached its floor. So to basically remain the same is not good or anything.

----------


## CPSparkles

Nightwing Dick Grayson



https://u2333.tumblr.com

----------


## oasis1313

I love it when we get cool fan-art in here!

----------


## Vordan

> To further elaborate though, sales right before Ric weren't good and the title had basically reached its floor. So to basically remain the same is not good or anything.


The problem is they haven’t sunken low enough to force DC to undo it yet. I still think Ric will revert to Dick once City of Bane is over. But I gotta say who would even be a good choice to take over a normal Nightwing book? I’d personally give it to Steve Orlando, he can be a bit hit or miss (I like his Martian Manhunter right now, but not his Supergirl) but he has a deep knowledge and respect for continuity. He’d probably bring back Las Vegas Bludhaven while also using Dick’s Rogues and his time as a Spyral agent.

----------


## Godlike13

Sales are not going to force them to undo this. They would just cancel the book before they undo anything. DC isn’t gonna undo it till they are done with what they need him out of the way for. Nothing about this direction has gone right, but that doesn’t matter because that real purpose behind it to keep him contained in a corner and out of the way. No one actually gives a shit about this direction though, not even the mercenary creators producing it.

----------


## L.H.

Hi guys! I had a strange dream. 
I dreamed of Lex Luthor, talking to someone of the Court of Owls (yeah, I know, I made a lot of strange dreams). They were talking about Dick, and were saying that the heart stop in Forever Evil kinda reactived his fake tooth, and, also, that Bea is working for Lex and the Owls, making sure that Dick don't get back to the batfam and keeping him in a confusional state (even drugging him), all of this to make him an easy prey for the Court. 
My mind is trying everything just to escape this crap  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

Bruce slugged Dick in the mouth and knocked the fake tooth out.  But i think it's great that your mind is trying to work on ways out.

----------


## L.H.

> Bruce slugged Dick in the mouth and knocked the fake tooth out.  But i think it's great that your mind is trying to work on ways out.


Yeah, I know that, but my dream didn't  :Wink: . 
It doesn't make sense, but probably was more excited than the last months issues... for me, at least.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Sales are not going to force them to undo this. They would just cancel the book before they undo anything. DC isn’t gonna undo it till they are done with what they need him out of the way for. Nothing about this direction has gone right, but that doesn’t matter because that real purpose behind it to keep him contained in a corner and out of the way. No one actually gives a shit about this direction though, not even the mercenary creators producing it.


What _are_ they trying to get away from anyway? Even when he's Nightwing he's barely included in anything. Incapacitated in Metal and No Justice. 

I doubt they will include him in say, Heroes in Crisis, for example, even if it's just crying over Wally because that can be done in Nightwing just like Jason mourn about Roy in his book. Leviathan is Bendis idea and DC lets him do whatever he wants. 

That's the only two things I can think of, and they can always incapacitate him in any form just like the previous events, there's no need to go this long. 

Batman's birthday, Justice League's future, and Doomsday Clock that's set in a different time, he's included in a cameo anyway.

I know Didio banned Steph and Cass because probably he doesn't want them to overshadow Barbara as Batgirl, and he has this weird fear of Dick getting older than Bats, but this is Batman. He was never even replaced by Dick as long as Steph and Cass.

DC has no logic from what I can tell.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I assume they're prolonging the current direction for as long as possible so that he's completely off the board during King's run. For all we know, Dick might only get his memories back in time for Batman #105 or whatever his last issue is going to be.

Post-City of Bane makes sense to me tho, but specifically because that means we could get some sort of relaunch this fall. Looking at things, we have City of Bane and Leviathan happening soon, we have those solicits, and we have Snyder's JL event that should tie-in with the Year of Villains thing. Then there's HiC and Doomsday Clock, the former of which will finally be done with. I always assumed Doomsday Clock and maybe even the Three Jokers would be finished by this fall, but maybe not what with all the Doomsday Clock delays.

Anyways, the point is, all these events should result in enough of the landscape changing that we might get a line-wide relaunch. DC is currently bleeding sales everywhere in the direct market. A relaunch or rebranding of their books is exactly the kind of situation they'd use the "look, Dick is back in black and blue!! His memories are back, yay!" marketing hook.

----------


## CPSparkles

Best Big Bro

----------


## Rac7d*

> What _are_ they trying to get away from anyway? Even when he's Nightwing he's barely included in anything. Incapacitated in Metal and No Justice. 
> 
> I doubt they will include him in say,* Heroes in Crisis,* for example, even if it's just crying over Wally because that can be done in Nightwing just like Jason mourn about Roy in his book. Leviathan is Bendis idea and DC lets him do whatever he wants. 
> 
> That's the only two things I can think of, and they can always incapacitate him in any form just like the previous events, there's no need to go this long.


When he does come back I bet they will just mention it off in one panel, that some friends of his died


Ive been wondering, Damian been to see dick in any capacity since the incident
 I wonder, how could Ric still be Ric without seeming like a douche if he did come by, it hard to look into child face and tell them you dont know them when they clearly know you. Its one thing to push Babs and Alfred away  but Dick's been a surrogate parent for Damian, a brother a friend which Damian doesn't have many. I wouldn't say dick owes damian anything but thats not an encounter he would easily be able to brush off



I personally dont like Damian having to turn Jason or Slade

----------


## CPSparkles

> When he does come back I bet they will just mention it off in one panel, that some friends of his died
> 
> 
> Ive been wondering, Damian been to see dick in any capacity since the incident
>  I wonder, how could Ric still be Ric without seeming like a douche if he did come by, it hard to look into child face and tell them you dont know them when they clearly know you. Its one thing to push Babs and Alfred away  but Dick's been a surrogate parent for Damian, a brother a friend which Damian doesn't have many. I wouldn't say dick owes damian anything but thats not an encounter he would easily be able to brush off


That's probably why Damian hasn't been to see Dick. If it's going to get him to change, to make some positive effort then it works against the whole keeping Dick away. Eliminating him to aide King's plot.

The same reason why everyone is acting occ and have abandoned him. The plot coming up in Batman demands that Dick be taken out of the equation.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's probably why Damian hasn't been to see Dick. If it's going to get him to change, to make some positive effort then it works against the whole keeping Dick away. Eliminating him to aide King's plot.
> 
> The same reason why everyone is acting occ and have abandoned him. The plot coming up in Batman demands that Dick be taken out of the equation.


It wouldn't necessarily make him change, but it pokes a hole in his justification to lead his own life,  
I hated this storyline when they did it with Batman a few years ago because he has a son, this amnesia thing cant be entertained
It wasnt to long ago we had that scare with Shawn, how would this amnesia thing go without it making him appear selfish

----------


## CPSparkles

> It wouldn't necessarily make him change, but it pokes a hole in his justification to lead his own life,  
> I hated this storyline when they did it with Batman a few years ago because he has a son, this amnesia thing cant be entertained
> It wasnt to long ago we had that scare with Shawn, how would this amnesia thing go without it making him appear selfish


Honestly due to that I'm happy we haven't had Damian. Silly Ric running around with a bunch of folks who call themselves Nightwing is detrimental enough. I don't want them to add selfish or Dick who sends a crying kid packing to the mix.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Honestly due to that I'm happy we haven't had Damian. Silly Ric running around with a bunch of folks who call themselves Nightwing is detrimental enough. I don't want them to add selfish or Dick who sends a crying kid packing to the mix.



I dont think Damian would cry in public he might judo flip and run out angrily though
plus if Bea saw that

----------


## oasis1313

> I dont think Damian would cry in public he might judo flip and run out angrily though
> plus if Bea saw that


If Bea saw it, maybe she'd say, "I don't want to get mixed up with these idiots," and wisely run for the hills.

----------


## Badou

> I dont think Damian would cry in public he might judo flip and run out angrily though
> plus if Bea saw that


Didn't Damian after this in Metal punch Dick in the face and told him off for not believing in Bruce because Dick said they should leave him for dead? Then Dick didn't do anything the rest of the event because he was too sad that he failed to save Gotham. Dick did not get the best treatment in Metal, which is like every event I guess lol.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Didn't Damian after this in Metal punch Dick in the face and told him off for not believing in Bruce because Dick said they should leave him for dead? Then Dick didn't do anything the rest of the event because he was too sad that he failed to save Gotham. Dick did not get the best treatment in Metal, which is like every event I guess lol.


He was captured along with all the heroes in the bar-between-worlds-or-what's-it's-called when the enemies attacked and put into that machine that use their life energy or whatever to bring the dark multiverse closer, but yeah.

----------


## dietrich

> Didn't Damian after this in Metal punch Dick in the face and told him off for not believing in Bruce because Dick said they should leave him for dead? Then Dick didn't do anything the rest of the event because he was too sad that he failed to save Gotham. Dick did not get the best treatment in Metal, which is like every event I guess lol.


Damian did raise his hands to him [in an oc moment] but Dick's lack of response wasn't because he was too sad. 
They might not have saved Gotham but they figured out the key to killing the characters from the Dark Universe.

Dick didn't strike Damian because what kind of a grown man exchanges blows with an insecure and hurting 13 year old who thought he had lost his father? Not Dick Grayson.

But i do agree that I expected Metal to do more with Dick but that was until I realised that Metal was a Justice league focus event. They were the only ones who did anything.

Dick did a lot in his issue and saved Damian the very next issue. I don't know how much you expected him to do in the titles belonging to others like SS and Green Lantern

----------


## oasis1313

> He was captured along with all the heroes in the bar-between-worlds-or-what's-it's-called when the enemies attacked and put into that machine that use their life energy or whatever to bring the dark multiverse closer, but yeah.


A chipper/shredder?

----------


## Badou

> Damian did raise his hands to him [in an oc moment] but Dick's lack of response wasn't because he was too sad. 
> They might not have saved Gotham but they figured out the key to killing the characters from the Dark Universe.
> 
> Dick didn't strike Damian because what kind of a grown man exchanges blows with an insecure and hurting 13 year old who thought he had lost his father? Not Dick Grayson.
> 
> But i do agree that I expected Metal to do more with Dick but that was until I realised that Metal was a Justice league focus event. They were the only ones who did anything.
> 
> Dick did a lot in his issue and saved Damian the very next issue. I don't know how much you expected him to do in the titles belonging to others like SS and Green Lantern


Well I didn't expect Dick to strike Damian. That wasn't my point. It was just that Dick's actions in that were the complete opposite of what he did in the page Rac7d posted. He thought they should give up on Bruce and leave him for dead and Damian and Superman said that they shouldn't do that. That is why Damian punched him. Because Dick said they should leave Bruce for dead. Then Superman went off and rescued Bruce proving Dick was wrong. When earlier in Dick's tie in issue he said they shouldn't give up on Bruce and that they would find him. Some consistency would have been nice. That is a complete 180 in terms of character between two different issues and creators. 

Sure it would have been nice to have seen Dick go off and help rescue Bruce like Superman did, but just Dick saying something like how they shouldn't give up on Bruce and believe in him would have been satisfying enough. Not like I was expecting Dick to save the world or some shit. I know Dick gets treated like shit in events so I had low expectations anyway.

----------


## yohyoi

Just read HiC, oh boy, Dick was lucky. King was 1000 times more merciful what he did to Dick compared to Wally. Dick got a paper cut, Wally got the axe. You guys are so lucky. So so lucky.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I have stopped buying DC comics (to protest Ric). Could someone fill me in on what happened to poor Wally?

----------


## Fergus

> I have stopped buying DC comics (to protest Ric). Could someone fill me in on what happened to poor Wally?


*spoilers:*
 I'm not pulling this title but from online spoilers it seems that Wally killed everyone because his speed force got out (don't ask me, ask King)

Then he travelled five days into the future where he met and killed his future self.

Then he brought the body back and set it up to confuse everybody in order to have five days to "do something good" (for some reason revealing heroes' secret identities and that they have ptsd is supposed to be good) 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## CPSparkles

Father and Son Sketches



https://twitter.com/MitchGerads

----------


## dietrich

> *spoilers:*
>  I'm not pulling this title but from online spoilers it seems that Wally killed everyone because his speed force got out (don't ask me, ask King)
> 
> Then he travelled five days into the future where he met and killed his future self.
> 
> Then he brought the body back and set it up to confuse everybody in order to have five days to "do something good" (for some reason revealing heroes' secret identities and that they have ptsd is supposed to be good) 
> *end of spoilers*


Wow *spoilers:*
 Rather than travelling 5 days into the future to kill himself why didn't he go back in time and undo the deaths? That's a thing he can do right? Like Superman did in that one movie. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Vinsanity

> That's probably why Damian hasn't been to see Dick. If it's going to get him to change, to make some positive effort then it works against the whole keeping Dick away. Eliminating him to aide King's plot.
> 
> The same reason why everyone is acting occ and have abandoned him. The plot coming up in Batman demands that Dick be taken out of the equation.


If he was still Grayson, it would have been easier to take him out. However this is what we get. It was either killed, coma, or amnesia for the Batman run.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If he was still Grayson, it would have been easier to take him out. However this is what we get. It was either killed, coma, or amnesia for the Batman run.


DC desnt deal with spy organizations, see how sypral no longer exists in the  in any form in DC. He would have ended up as some rick flagg type working for Amanda Waller  Grayson had to come to an end

----------


## Vinsanity

> DC desnt deal with spy organizations, see how sypral no longer exists in the  in any form in DC. He would have ended up as some rick flagg type working for Amanda Waller  Grayson had to come to an end


Grayson was always going to have a short lifetime which sucks but that's just business and fans. The Big Batman run is the reason why Ric is happening. Tim is always out of the picture, Jase has a green light to do whatever, so naturally to make it high stakes, you have to sideline Dick Grayson. It sucks but that's life.

----------


## Badou

So in Action Comics 1010 Batwoman is apparently now the director of Spyral. For some reason. Just think about how much could have been done with Dick and Spyral if Bludhaven and Ric were not a thing...

And Bendis is completely rewriting the history Spyral and Leviathan too it seemed from the issue. Not sure how I feel about it.

----------


## Godlike13

> Grayson was always going to have a short lifetime which sucks but that's just business and fans. The Big Batman run is the reason why Ric is happening. Tim is always out of the picture, Jase has a green light to do whatever, so naturally to make it high stakes, you have to sideline Dick Grayson. It sucks but that's life.


How is it oh Grayson was always gonna be short cause business and fans, yet Ric is still going strong despite flatlining sales at their low and being hated by fans. Again they could give a shit about fans, or even Dicks sales. Fans didn’t end Grayson anymore then they are ending Ric.

----------


## Dzetoun

> So in Action Comics 1010 Batwoman is apparently now the director of Spyral. For some reason. Just think about how much could have been done with Dick and Spyral if Bludhaven and Ric were not a thing...
> 
> And Bendis is completely rewriting the history Spyral and Leviathan too it seemed from the issue. Not sure how I feel about it.


Yeah, I saw that about Kate Kane as well. I'm not sure what to make of that. Is it a deliberate rewrite? Or did Bendis just get Kate Kane and Kathy Kane mixed up (certainly easy to do if you aren't really familiar with the characters and the way Grant Morrison manipulated them when he created Spyral)?

As for Spyral and Leviathan, however, their ouroborus relationship actually comes from _Grayson_. I think it was after Jackson and Lanzing took over, but they were following Seeley and King's outline. This particular plot element has Seeley written all over it.

----------


## K. Jones

> So in Action Comics 1010 Batwoman is apparently now the director of Spyral. For some reason. Just think about how much could have been done with Dick and Spyral if Bludhaven and Ric were not a thing...
> 
> And Bendis is completely rewriting the history Spyral and Leviathan too it seemed from the issue. Not sure how I feel about it.


No that's accurate. Mister Minos was hellbent on spying on superheroes but before that, the founder, Doctor Dedalus really did fashion Leviathan as an evil puzzle for Spyral to interact with - most notably in the mind-control drugs and the "labyrinth" ship. He just sold all that puzzle box stuff to Talia to distract Batman from the real threat coming for him, and she's been fondly using the Leviathan motif for her faction of the League ever since. Which is why I never thought Talia was the villain here in the first place (nor do I even think "Kate Spencer" was Talia in disguise, I was pretty sure it's someone else.) And even having been Patron of the organization, it's easy enough to buy that Tiger didn't know all the details about Agent Zero's evil Nazi conspiracy games from the earlier incarnations. We don't actually even know when Tiger was recruited.

So there's Dedalus Leviathan. Then there's "Dedalus donating Leviathan stuff to Talia Leviathan". Then there's post-Dedalus Talia Leviathan. Which was also Rebirthed, in Silencer, to have quite a strange power play going on with some weird characters. And now it seems maybe there's "Pre-Talia Leviathan Elements" coming back to really muck up the world. Mark my words I feel like before this arc is over we'll have a Lois Lane/Talia al Ghul team-up issue. Which would frankly be dope.

Because that's Jon's mom teaming up with Damian's mom.

----------


## Arsenal

Depends on which version of Damian’s mom that we get.

----------


## Dzetoun

Today, after reading my weekly comics, I had a vision of Jurgens flopping down in a recliner, popping a couple of Excedrin, pouring himself a whiskey, then looking at a Nightwing Funko POP and saying, "Well, Dick old son, at least you and me kept out of _Heroes in Crisis_! Much as folks bitch about Ric, the stank from that one will last for years."

If you don't know what I'm talking about, don't worry, you'll hear about it ... and keep hearing about it, I suspect.

----------


## oasis1313

> Wow *spoilers:*
>  Rather than travelling 5 days into the future to kill himself why didn't he go back in time and undo the deaths? That's a thing he can do right? Like Superman did in that one movie. 
> *end of spoilers*


Sickening.  You're right.  Ric is a mercy killing in comparison.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is really bad not necessarily because of what has been done, as bad as that is, but what it represents. Editorial ineptness and creative apathy. As hard as HIC might be for some, it’s creators at least believe in what they are doing and the story they are telling. No one can say that about Ric.

----------


## Rac7d*

How old is dick in Gotham he was born in season 1 right?
Do you think he might make a cameo

----------


## Badou

> Ric is really bad not necessarily because of what has been done, as bad as that is, but what it represents. Editorial ineptness and creative apathy. As hard as HIC might be for some, it’s creators at least believe in what they are doing and the story they are telling. No one can say that about Ric.


Well both represent aspects I think are wrong with modern superhero comics. Ric is lazy and no effort at its worst, but HiC checks all the boxes for terrible event books. Needless shock value, overly miserable writing, decompressed to hell, far too many issues, extreme lengths to write heroes out of character, and gratuitous deaths used to sell the book. I don't think it having effort put into it excuses it for representing a very large segment with what I feel is wrong with current comics.

----------


## Badou

And even though I say all that part of me is still bothered Dick had no role in HiC. Since it is about the influence of a character and their standing in how DC views them. Wally is supposed to be Dick's best friend and he killed characters like Roy and other heroes and Titans that Dick is also friends and/or teammates with before, but we will not get any reaction to how Dick feels about any of this because he isn't deemed important enough in how DC views their characters to give us that reaction. That still bugs me.

----------


## WonderNight

> And even though I say all that part of me is still bothered Dick had no role in HiC. Since it is about the influence of a character and their standing in how DC views them. Wally is supposed to be Dick's best friend and he killed characters like Roy and other heroes and Titans that Dick is also friends and/or teammates with before, but we will not get any reaction to how Dick feels about any of this because he isn't deemed important enough in how DC views their characters to give us that reaction. That still bugs me.


But why dosen't DC view dick as important? I mean he meets all of the criteria that proofs he's like there 5th or 6th biggest character. I don't get it.

What more can be done by dick fans and supporters to show that dick has what it takes.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But why dosen't DC view dick as important? I mean he meets all of the criteria that proofs he's like there 5th or 6th biggest character. I don't get it.
> 
> What more can be done by dick fans and supporters to show that dick has what it takes.


This is a company built by fans, and fans are subjective. If one fan who happens to be in charge has a definition on what the characters should be, and if they think that the Justice League generation, the Titans generation and the Teen Titans generation should be placed in their neat little boxes, not overlapping with each other, not developing into something more, then there they will stay. 

That's just an example. I don't know what who's in charge actually want.

----------


## oasis1313

> This is a company built by fans, and fans are subjective. If one fan who happens to be in charge has a definition on what the characters should be, and if they think that the Justice League generation, the Titans generation and the Teen Titans generation should be placed in their neat little boxes, not overlapping with each other, not developing into something more, then there they will stay. 
> 
> That's just an example. I don't know what who's in charge actually want.


Didio is in charge and he's tried multiple times to kill off Dick Grayson, and makes no secret of it.  THAT is what the fanboy publisher wants.

----------


## byrd156

> Sh*t, they haven't been the same since 1993.


They've had some good stuff since them.

----------


## byrd156

> Just read HiC, oh boy, Dick was lucky. King was 1000 times more merciful what he did to Dick compared to Wally. Dick got a paper cut, Wally got the axe. You guys are so lucky. So so lucky.


I'm super lucky. All my favorite characters are in different levels of disarray. Instead of all being dead.

----------


## byrd156

> Well both represent aspects I think are wrong with modern superhero comics. Ric is lazy and no effort at its worst, but HiC checks all the boxes for terrible event books. Needless shock value, overly miserable writing, decompressed to hell, far too many issues, extreme lengths to write heroes out of character, and gratuitous deaths used to sell the book. I don't think it having effort put into it excuses it for representing a very large segment with what I feel is wrong with current comics.


It's all equally awful in my eyes.

----------


## oasis1313

Glad I'm sitting out HiC.  Looked like it was going to be nothing but shock value.

----------


## Ascended

> Glad I'm sitting out HiC.  Looked like it was going to be nothing but shock value.


I was interested in the idea of exploring mental health through the lens of superheroics, but after reading the first issue I was done. I didn't lose my mind like some posters here did, I figured the deaths (some of them at least) were probably red herrings or there'd be some twist at the end, so I decided to just keep an eye on reviews and maybe get the trade. 

But from what I hear I really doubt I'll be getting the trade unless that final issue is a masterpiece and somehow justifies this BS. What's been done to Wally would have me beyond pissed if I could muster the will to give a damn anymore (Wally is still *my* Flash, but DC has made it hard to care this past decade) and Roy.....he was one of the best characters DC had, and they've never known what to do with him. 

I'm not sure if Dick avoiding all this was good or bad, considering Ric is the excuse they're using to sideline him.

----------


## Godlike13

Wally did us all a favor with some of those deaths  :Cool:

----------


## oasis1313

> Wally did us all a favor with some of those deaths


Can you make a spoiler box and tell us who all bit the dust?

----------


## Godlike13

Honestly I can’t remember them all, highlights though were Roy and Gnarrk.

----------


## Frontier

> Wally did us all a favor with some of those deaths


Which is kind of ironic when you're referring to him killing one of his and Dick's closest friends  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Godlike13

Was he though...

----------


## Frontier

> Was he though...


In-universe he's supposed to be.

----------


## Badou

> In-universe he's supposed to be.


Yet no one will even bother telling Dick about his death and he won't even react to it. Same with all the other deaths. When you really break it town their relationships to Dick, even including Wally's, is completely irrelevant in comics now. Roy and Jason's relationship is VASTLY more developed right now and that is pretty sad. So I don't really know if you can even call them close friends anymore. 

I mean Dick gets his memories back and a Babs or someone goes to tell him something like, "While you were in your Ric phase Wally killed Roy and all these other heroes and then killed himself. We didn't bother telling you before. Our bad. Okay, bye." What is Dick supposed to do there? Be upset no one told him that who are supposed to be his closest friends all died horribly? When Dick was a giant asshole to everyone while he was Ric? That is just another aspect to this whole thing that pissed me off so much.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yet no one will even bother telling Dick about his death and he won't even react to it. Same with all the other deaths. When you really break it town their relationships to Dick, even including Wally's, is completely irrelevant in comics now. Roy and Jason's relationship is VASTLY more developed right now and that is pretty sad. So I don't really know if you can even call them close friends anymore. 
> 
> I mean Dick gets his memories back and a Babs or someone goes to tell him something like, "While you were in your Ric phase Wally killed Roy and all these other heroes and then killed himself. We didn't bother telling you before. Our bad. Okay, bye." What is Dick supposed to do there? Be upset no one told him that who are supposed to be his closest friends all died horribly? When Dick was a giant asshole to everyone while he was Ric? That is just another aspect to this whole thing that pissed me off so much.


Nothing new here.  Nobody bothered to tell Dick that Jason was dead or that Bruce had broken his back, etc etc etc.  It's not like anyone expects COMPETENCY at DC.

----------


## Mr. White

> But why dosen't DC view dick as important? I mean he meets all of the criteria that proofs he's like there 5th or 6th biggest character. I don't get it.
> 
> What more can be done by dick fans and supporters to show that dick has what it takes.


Childish I know...but the constant "dick" mentions (as opposed to "Dick") reads a tad amusing.

Solid points though. Don't get it either.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Honestly I can’t remember them all, highlights though were Roy and Gnarrk.


Oh Gnarrk died too?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Well, Tom King has posted a tease for an upcoming Batman issue of his featuring the Batfamily in action together and *SIGH* to little surprise Dick's nowhere in sight. 

The tease if anyone's interested 

Ric will probably be running around like a bozo for a while longer.

----------


## L.H.

> Well, Tom King has posted a tease for an upcoming Batman issue of his featuring the Batfamily in action together and *SIGH* to little surprise Dick's nowhere in sight. 
> 
> The tease if anyone's interested 
> 
> Ric will probably be running around like a bozo for a while longer.


Well, right now being written by King is more dangerous than walking trough Crime Alley with a pearl necklace. Probably, he is just searching for the next character to destroy.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, Tom King has posted a tease for an upcoming Batman issue of his featuring the Batfamily in action together and *SIGH* to little surprise Dick's nowhere in sight. 
> 
> The tease if anyone's interested 
> 
> Ric will probably be running around like a bozo for a while longer.


I don't even care anymore, I'm ready for nightwing to move on and have his own franchise and family to be honest. I'm tired of nightwing being 1 of batman's many sidekicks.

----------


## Godlike13

King doesn’t want to touch “Ric” anymore then anyone else.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Honestly I cant remember them all, highlights though were Roy and Gnarrk.


I'm not super enthused about Roy, but I wouldn't consider that a highlight. Honestly, if they have no desire to use him, he should just be retired from crime fighting and raising his daughter in peace.

Gnarrk I'm sort of "whatever" about. Even Wolfman tried to casually kill him off in Donna's wedding issue with an offhand mention, which says it all. 
Thankfully Danny Chase is dead, otherwise I'd say throw him onto the pile. As well as constantly crying, useless, alien angel Azrael. In fact, I'd happily offer up Azrael in place of Roy or even Gnarrk.

----------


## byrd156

> Oh Gnarrk died too?


A lot of Titans died. I made a whole history list of dead Titans back in the appreciation thread if you want to check that out.

----------


## byrd156

> In-universe he's supposed to be.


In the new 52/rebirth universe they're friends because they had an actual relationship in the pre/post-flashpoint ones. Which just shows how lazy DC is, let's destroy everything and pretend it's all different but use pre-built iconography because we're too lazy to come up with something original.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm not super enthused about Roy, but I wouldn't consider that a highlight. Honestly, if they have no desire to use him, he should just be retired from crime fighting and raising his daughter in peace.
> 
> Gnarrk I'm sort of "whatever" about. Even Wolfman tried to casually kill him off in Donna's wedding issue with an offhand mention, which says it all. 
> Thankfully Danny Chase is dead, otherwise I'd say throw him onto the pile. As well as constantly crying, useless, alien angel Azrael. In fact, I'd happily offer up Azrael in place of Roy or even Gnarrk.


Am I the only person out there who liked Danny Chase?  Gnarrk was a bad idea back in the early 60's, and I've been trying to forget THAT Azrael forever.  Just sitting here wishing Reek would go magically grow his hair back and turn into Dick.

----------


## byrd156

> Am I the only person out there who liked Danny Chase?  Gnarrk was a bad idea back in the early 60's, and I've been trying to forget THAT Azrael forever.  Just sitting here wishing Reek would go magically grow his hair back and turn into Dick.


I love Danny Chase.

----------


## Frontier

> Well, Tom King has posted a tease for an upcoming Batman issue of his featuring the Batfamily in action together and *SIGH* to little surprise Dick's nowhere in sight. 
> 
> The tease if anyone's interested 
> 
> Ric will probably be running around like a bozo for a while longer.


Considering King I wouldn't be surprised if this is either a flashback, dream sequence, or random splash page with very little else Batfamily related.

----------


## Arsenal

> Considering King I wouldn't be surprised if this is either a flashback, dream sequence, or random splash page with very little else Batfamily related.


Especially since him and pops bout to spend the entire next arc getting some much needed father-son bonding time. Will be hard for the rest of the bats to play a meaningful role in the issue when that’s what’s coming next.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Yeah it will be Nostalgic but lead to the Bat Family getting pushed further away

----------


## Rac7d*

> I love Danny Chase.


why? He was written to not be liked, he was a jerk, immature selfish, arrogant vindictive little turd

at least Damian was cute

At least terra provided some strong drama

but chase did not belong their

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Am I the only person out there who liked Danny Chase?  Gnarrk was a bad idea back in the early 60's, and I've been trying to forget THAT Azrael forever.  Just sitting here wishing Reek would go magically grow his hair back and turn into Dick.


Even Cyborg hates that Azrael. I just got my copy of NTT Volume 10, and he's as obnoxious as ever. Kole, on the other hand, is pleasant enough and it's a shame she was created to just be cannon fodder. She wasn't around enough for her death to mean much of anything besides being slightly wasteful. She comes across better than any of the other post-Perez additions, at least. 




> why? He was written to not be liked, he was a jerk, immature selfish, arrogant vindictive little turd
> 
> at least Damian was cute
> 
> At least terra provided some strong drama
> 
> but chase did not belong their


I don't think he was written deliberately to be unlikable, he just turned out that way. Super Secret Agent Cousin Oliver who is useless in most combat conditions and thinks superheroes identities and costumes are lame is an odd choice to add to your team of superheroes. Who is meant to identify with him exactly?

And since this is a Dick appreciation thread, here's an appropriate image (Dick speaks for a lot of us)
DickvsDanny.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> why? He was written to not be liked, he was a jerk, immature selfish, arrogant vindictive little turd
> 
> at least Damian was cute
> 
> At least terra provided some strong drama
> 
> but chase did not belong their


To me he feels like Jason Todd done right. He's rough around the edges but uses his powers like any other kid would. He would faint and freak out at the sight of blood, he felt like a solid foundation to build an arc about maturing into a hero. I'm not really huge on realism but to me Danny, Danny's attitude and outlook on life felt very genuine to me. He was a much needed kid/teen element in a time where the rest of the Titans were also finding themselves but as young adults. I like that there was someone much younger there as a new lens to look at the Titans during this major time of change.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Even Cyborg hates that Azrael. I just got my copy of NTT Volume 10, and he's as obnoxious as ever. Kole, on the other hand, is pleasant enough and it's a shame she was created to just be cannon fodder. She wasn't around enough for her death to mean much of anything besides being slightly wasteful. She comes across better than any of the other post-Perez additions, at least. 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he was written deliberately to be unlikable, he just turned out that way. Super Secret Agent Cousin Oliver who is useless in most combat conditions and thinks superheroes identities and costumes are lame is an odd choice to add to your team of superheroes. Who is meant to identify with him exactly?
> 
> And since this is a Dick appreciation thread, here's an appropriate image (Dick speaks for a lot of us)
> DickvsDanny.jpg


did you read all the letter to the editor he was universally hated

----------


## Rac7d*

> To me he feels like Jason Todd done right. He's rough around the edges but uses his powers like any other kid would. He would faint and freak out at the sight of blood, he felt like a solid foundation to build an arc about maturing into a hero. I'm not really huge on realism but to me Danny, Danny's attitude and outlook on life felt very genuine to me. He was a much needed kid/teen element in a time where the rest of the Titans were also finding themselves but as young adults. I like that there was someone much younger there as a new lens to look at the Titans during this major time of change.


Jason was not originally a jerk, he was a good kid, he was rebooted that he was angry and edgey kid leading to the jason we know now. All chase ever did was fight with beastboy and annoy everyone and he was like 12 on a team of 20 year olds and BB

----------


## Jackalope89

> Jason was not originally a jerk, he was a good kid, he was rebooted that he was angry and edgey kid leading to the jason we know now. All chase ever did was fight with beastboy and annoy everyone and he was like 12 on a team of 20 year olds and BB


Yep. And lets not forget that after he died, even trying to protect that awful woman, Batman did a LOT of victim blaming on him as well.

----------


## oasis1313

> Especially since him and pops bout to spend the entire next arc getting some much needed father-son bonding time. Will be hard for the rest of the bats to play a meaningful role in the issue when that’s what’s coming next.


It ain't the real Pappy, is it?  Thomas Wayne ought to be dust by now.  Maybe it's Hush's daddy.

----------


## Arsenal

> It ain't the real Pappy, is it?  Thomas Wayne ought to be dust by now.  Maybe it's Hush's daddy.


It’s technically an AU pappy but biology it checks out.

----------


## oasis1313

> It’s technically an AU pappy but biology it checks out.


OK.  Evil Pappy.  Sure acts like a grieving widower.  I'm starting to be thankful that Dick is in Ric mode and away from the torture porn in the Batbooks.

----------


## byrd156

> Jason was not originally a jerk, he was a good kid, he was rebooted that he was angry and edgey kid leading to the jason we know now. All chase ever did was fight with beastboy and annoy everyone and he was like 12 on a team of 20 year olds and BB


I know that but those retcons are what the character's history is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a retcon.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

You can not like Danny, I do simple as that.

----------


## Rac7d*

Is anyone here on Dc universe? We should make a dick grayson appreciation thread their as well and link it here

----------


## oasis1313

The forum there seems for more casual fans who're just watching the show.  Hardcores are here--just my impression.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The forum there seems for more casual fans who're just watching the show.  Hardcores are here--just my impression.


Id like to create the bridge, plus who knows what eye may be lurking their

----------


## oasis1313

> Id like to create the bridge, plus who knows what eye may be lurking their


They seem younger, maybe?  Less involved?  Maybe even (gasp!) less jaded?

----------


## Pohzee

> They seem younger, maybe?  Less involved?  Maybe even (gasp!) less jaded?


Which is why I'd hate to bring them here.

----------


## byrd156

> They seem younger, maybe?  Less involved?  Maybe even (gasp!) less jaded?


They'll get jaded soon enough, I think I got jaded when I was 13 or 14.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

> They'll get jaded soon enough, I think I got jaded when I was 13 or 14.


That's depressing. I hope they don't have reason to get jaded so soon based on the none comic content. So far they don't lets hope DC keeps it up.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Well, right now being written by King is more dangerous than walking trough Crime Alley with a pearl necklace. Probably, he is just searching for the next character to destroy.


Yep. These are just the next victims to be sacrificed for the plot. I'm more fearful than hopeful.

----------


## CPSparkles

https://avataraandy.tumblr.com

----------


## Elmo

> Is anyone here on Dc universe? We should make a dick grayson appreciation thread their as well and link it here


i'm on DC universe. let me know when the thread is made and I'll join in trash talking this current run

----------


## SiegePerilous02

So I was lurking in the Deathstroke thread since I'm thinking on catching up (I only have the first two volumes) and someone said that Priest requested to work on Nightwing and Didio said no.

We are in the worst timeline.

Failing that, I'd like to see him tackle an adult Titans book with Dick and any Fab 5/NTT members available to him. Anything would be a step up at this point

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why? How is it hard to believe that he would like Dick and Tim? You can like more than one character.


Its not what bendis likes but his son

----------


## oasis1313

> So I was lurking in the Deathstroke thread since I'm thinking on catching up (I only have the first two volumes) and someone said that Priest requested to work on Nightwing and Didio said no.
> 
> We are in the worst timeline.
> 
> Failing that, I'd like to see him tackle an adult Titans book with Dick and any Fab 5/NTT members available to him. Anything would be a step up at this point


If I was Didio and Christopher Priest wanted to write ANY book in my stable, I'd say yes.  If I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted him to write Deathstroke, I'd say, ""Sure, man, you can write all the Nightwing you please, as long as you give me the number of pages I want every month for Deathstroke."   I never understood why DC is always pushing Deathstroke so hard.  And "Ric" is STILL outselling Deathstroke, even with a primo writer.

----------


## Godlike13

Why put Priest on Nightwing when they have relevant talents like Lobdell and Jurgans to recycle We Are Robin.

In all seriousness though, Nightwing and the Nightwing title might be in the worst position they have even been. Of course they are not putting Priest on it. That was a long shot even before Ric. But now its not even a proving ground for new talent, but a containment book and work for the in house boys.

----------


## byrd156

> That's depressing. I hope they don't have reason to get jaded so soon based on the none comic content. So far they don't lets hope DC keeps it up.


Outside comic content is really where DC shines. (the past 6-7 years notwithstanding)

----------


## oasis1313

> Why put Priest on Nightwing when they have relevant talents like Lobdell and Jurgans to recycle We Are Robin.
> 
> In all seriousness though, Nightwing and the Nightwing title might be in the worst position they have even been. Of course they are not putting Priest on it. That was a long shot even before Ric. But now its not even a proving ground for new talent, but a containment book and work for the in house boys.


I think you may be right that this is lowest trench Dick Grayson has ever been tossed into.   I thought it couldn't get worse than getting raped.  But it's still better than Wally is getting.

----------


## Vordan

> Why put Priest on Nightwing when they have relevant talents like Lobdell and Jurgans to recycle We Are Robin.
> 
> In all seriousness though, Nightwing and the Nightwing title might be in the worst position they have even been. Of course they are not putting Priest on it. That was a long shot even before Ric. *But now its not even a proving ground for new talent, but a containment book and work for the in house boys.*


Christ you perfectly summed up the current status for Nightwing. That really is depressing.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think you may be right that this is lowest trench Dick Grayson has ever been tossed into.   I thought it couldn't get worse than getting raped.  But it's still better than Wally is getting.


Dick, or Ric, might be up for a heel turn himself 
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...f-the-villain/

----------


## byrd156

> Dick, or Ric, might be up for a heel turn himself 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...f-the-villain/


It said dark dimensional versions. So it's basically a lame version of Multiversity and Secret Six mashed together.

----------


## Claude

> Dick, or Ric, might be up for a heel turn himself 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...f-the-villain/


I certainly hope so - you won't get a better excuse for a big ol' reset than that! 

And given that Luthor's offer appears to be to the Owls rather than - don't make me say this too often - "Ric" himself, then he can be affected without any blame of his own. 

Then you can relaunch the title off the back of the event, with an excuse to put loads of Owls and Talons on the cover for sales.

This is, of course, an optimistic view. I'm sure we can all think of ways it might go much worse.

----------


## oasis1313

> I certainly hope so - you won't get a better excuse for a big ol' reset than that! 
> 
> And given that Luthor's offer appears to be to the Owls rather than - don't make me say this too often - "Ric" himself, then he can be affected without any blame of his own. 
> 
> Then you can relaunch the title off the back of the event, with an excuse to put loads of Owls and Talons on the cover for sales.
> 
> This is, of course, an optimistic view. I'm sure we can all think of ways it might go much worse.


This does not look like something to expect great things from.  Let Ric stay home and enjoy sleeping in his alley.

----------


## Godlike13

Screw that. I’ll take anything that derails Ric into something other then the boring uninspired crap it turned into. Seriously anything. One of the most frustrating things about Ric is how these out of touch creators are hiding behind him to distract and mask their lame and uninspired writing with Ric. This “new” direction turned out to be so utterly not different from the same old decompressed dribble we have seen a billion times before. While Ric doesn’t actually do anything different from Dick, he does the same shit but just lamer then Dick. Despite his constant bitching about how lame Dick was. Which is so moronic, and it’s why I honestly believe no one at DC is even really reading or comprehending what they are even writing with Ric. 
So why not let him be corrupted and turn heel. Maybe then we could actually get something different and bold with Ric. First thing they could have him do is destroy the stupid Nightwings he has some how become sidekick too. Hell corrupted Ric could be the embodiment of Dick’s fans wrath and frustration, who goes on a rampage and systematically burns this stupid direction down piece by piece. He can even go by Deathwing and bring the nipple ring back. That whole look would fit right in with Metal.

Deathwing01.jpg

----------


## blade48

Does anyone know if the nightwing book is canceled? On the DC Page I can't find any issues beyond #59! 
https://www.dccomics.com/comics/nigh...6/nightwing-59

----------


## oasis1313

Mercy killing.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Does anyone know if the nightwing book is canceled? On the DC Page I can't find any issues beyond #59! 
> https://www.dccomics.com/comics/nigh...6/nightwing-59


One can but hope. Probably not, though.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Does anyone know if the nightwing book is canceled? On the DC Page I can't find any issues beyond #59! 
> https://www.dccomics.com/comics/nigh...6/nightwing-59


How about other titles that started the same month as Nightwing? Have they got their issue #60 yet?

----------


## Zaresh

> How about other titles that started the same month as Nightwing? Have they got their issue #60 yet?


Nightwing was biweekly for a year, I think. I doubt most of them did to that number.
In any case, I think that the DC comics website doesn't list in advance all the issues that have been previewed by the solicitations. There are solicits up to issue #62 (July), the latest we have.

----------


## blade48

For Batman it looks like this: https://www.dccomics.com/comics/batman-2016/batman-69 number 70 and 71 are advertised. Also for Batgirl https://www.dccomics.com/comics/batgirl-2016/batgirl-34 number 35 is marked as on sale at 5/15

----------


## oasis1313

I'm not in a hurry for Reek's next non-adventure.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, not even DCs website people want to bother with Ric.

----------


## oasis1313

> LoL, not even DC’s website people want to bother with Ric.


Maybe he'll grow some hair, maybe enough to cover his scalp scar (which seems to come and go).  That would be exciting.

----------


## twiztor

> Screw that. Ill take anything that derails Ric into something other then the boring uninspired crap it turned into. Seriously anything. One of the most frustrating things about Ric is how these out of touch creators are hiding behind him to distract and mask their lame and uninspired writing with Ric. This new direction turned out to be so utterly not different from the same old decompressed dribble we have seen a billion times before. While Ric doesnt actually do anything different from Dick, he does the same shit but just lamer then Dick. Despite his constant bitching about how lame Dick was. Which is so moronic, and its why I honestly believe no one at DC is even really reading or comprehending what they are even writing with Ric. 
> So why not let him be corrupted and turn heel. Maybe then we could actually get something different and bold with Ric. First thing they could have him do is destroy the stupid Nightwings he has some how become sidekick too. Hell corrupted Ric could be the embodiment of Dicks fans wrath and frustration, who goes on a rampage and systematically burns this stupid direction down piece by piece. He can even go by Deathwing and bring the nipple ring back. That whole look would fit right in with Metal.
> 
> Attachment 81788


i was not a fan of Deathwing back in the NTT days, but i'll gladly take Ric morphing into that character vs what we have now!

----------


## oasis1313

I'll still take Reek over Deathwing, I must confess.  I thought Deathwing was disgusting.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'll still take Reek over Deathwing, I must confess.  I thought Deathwing was disgusting.


Agreed. Deathwing was some weird stuff.

----------


## Arsenal

Reek would make perfect cover for the Leviathan.

Who would ever suspect the amnesic taxi driving hobo is the leader of the worlds new, best (and only) spy(?) organization?

----------


## dropkickjake

> Reek would make perfect cover for the Leviathan.
> 
> Who would ever suspect the amnesic taxi driving hobo is the leader of the worlds new, best (and only) spy(?) organization?


I'd be in for that. Wouldnt make me think that Ric was necessary, but it would it at least give it *some* excuse.

----------


## yohyoi

I PREFER ZOMBIE DICK OVER RIC!

Sorry, just had to say it. Can't hold it in, you know.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m partial to the Zombie Dick idea myself.

----------


## Pohzee

It hurt to see Dick absent from the spreads in today’s year of the villain and it hurts double that he’s not involved in Event Leviathan. That should be his toy’s damnit!

----------


## Lazurus33

*spoilers spoilers spoilers*

dceasesd #1


1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

> It hurt to see Dick absent from the spreads in today’s year of the villain and it hurts double that he’s not involved in Event Leviathan. That should be his toy’s damnit!


Yep, nothing anywhere. The current Bat office has fully accomplished burying the character under a rock.

----------


## oasis1313

> It hurt to see Dick absent from the spreads in todays year of the villain and it hurts double that hes not involved in Event Leviathan. That should be his toys damnit!


Isn't this the work of Bendis?

----------


## Badou

That whole speech by Bendis in that Year of the Villain introduction issue that the new red masked guy gave to Barbara about how nothing she has done works and she should listen to his offer made no sense to me. I've never read Barbara as being someone that is constantly doing things that aren't working. She has only changed positions and careers because her character got rebooted. Nightwing is more in line with what Bendis was getting at. His constant direction changes, moving cities, him never being on a team that works, having no stable career, and so on.

----------


## Katana500

> *spoilers spoilers spoilers*
> 
> dceasesd #1
> 
> 
> Attachment 81832Attachment 81833Attachment 81834


Does kinda make sense. The Batfamily would really not do well in an apocalpyse which spreads through technology since they rely on it so much. Didn't expect three of the batfamily to be wiped out in the first issue though. Im guessing Bruce probably wont turn until the end of issue 2 or maybe 3 after doing something to help Damian or any surviving heroes

----------


## Restingvoice

> *spoilers spoilers spoilers*
> 
> Attachment 81834


Kinky. 

You know you're a zombie, not a vampire, Dick. You don't have to go for the neck. 

Maybe he remembers his biceps are too hard.

----------


## byrd156

> *spoilers spoilers spoilers*
> 
> dceasesd #1
> 
> 
> Attachment 81832Attachment 81833Attachment 81834


Didn't one of the covers reveal Dick turned already?

----------


## oasis1313

> Kinky. 
> 
> You know you're a zombie, not a vampire, Dick. You don't have to go for the neck. 
> 
> Maybe he remembers his biceps are too hard.


Ha ha--Zombie Ric breaks his teeth on the Bat-Biceps.

----------


## byrd156

So when is Doomsday Clock supposed to end? That has be around the time Nightwing gets fixed right?

----------


## oasis1313

> So when is Doomsday Clock supposed to end? That has be around the time Nightwing gets fixed right?


I'm wondering if Didio intends to EVER let Dick get fixed (now he sounds like a pet cat).

----------


## byrd156

> I'm wondering if Didio intends to EVER let Dick get fixed (now he sounds like a pet cat).


Well this will end eventually. It just depends on what comes next, if it's more of the same or not.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well this will end eventually. It just depends on what comes next, if it's more of the same or not.


It's kinda like the Spanish Inquisition--torture always feels endless.

----------


## Arsenal

> So when is Doomsday Clock supposed to end? That has be around the time Nightwing gets fixed right?


Realistically? Maybe around November or December.

----------


## oasis1313

Four Nightwings with about four issues each to explain their Origins and Motivations; I think we're about two years more with Reek.

----------


## FireLord

Guys, Have anyone think that Ric could end up a bad guys with the Year of the Villain. Batman would have to stop him with superman, 'cause of the Batman and Superman comics. Then Supes its Ric on the head to have ourself find back with Dick  :Big Grin: .

----------


## king81992

> Guys, is it known exactly when Dick will be back? How long before they finish the "Ric" storyline? How long before they announce the return of Dick Grayson?
> Any prediction how soon?


Ric/Dick was mentioned as possibly being one of the six characters who are working for the Batman Who Laughs. And since DC has made it blatantly obvious that the agenda to undermine and derail Titans characters, it would not surprise me at all if Ric/Dick has a heel turn. Most of the Batman Who Laughs agents are probably going to be from the Titans franchise anyways, Donna has already been confirmed and the only relevant Titans who weren't on that list were Raven, Starfire and Terra.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is too popular, and their plans to complex, to be interrupted. 

LoL, no honesty though involving Dick or Ric in Year a Villain like that would probably require more work that anyone at the current Bat office would be willing to put in on the character. I wouldn’t expect anything more then a by the numbers, dragged out, old school decompressed lazy story arc involving the Court. Busy work for the good old boys is what the book and character is now. A book to pad out their stable, but not one anyone actually gives a crap if anyone is working hard or doing even a half decent job on. They are probably loving Ric even, as it give them something to hide behind. Oh no, its not that we are doing bad work. People just aren’t giving Ric a chance. Lobdell ended his crap arc with that spineless bullshit even.

----------


## Badou

The whole set up is dumb. I mean apparently Lex goes to the Court and offers them Dick or something, which is what they always wanted except for when they didn't care about him and wanted Bruce when they were introduced, but the thing is that as Ric right now Dick poses no threat or challenge to the Court. They can kill him or take him whenever they want. Dick is a fucking homeless cab driver. What can he offer the Court now anyway? Or what can Lex offer the count in relation to Dick that matters? There is no story there because Ric is such a dead end of creativity, and even the Court is a dead end at this point. 

So Lex is going around and offering something to villains and some heroes to tie into this Year of the Villain event and I think the Court thing is just the only thing DC could think of to use as a tie in. I don't see it going anywhere like all these garbage tie ins they do for these kind of stories. So I doubt that Dick will be one of the turned characters because it would invalidate the whole Rick crap they have been doing. Since no one would give a shit if they turned Ric's character evil or whatever crap they are planning with these characters in the event. Most would celebrate Ric going evil which is the complete opposite reaction they want for these evil heroes.

----------


## Godlike13

Free rides.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ric/Dick was mentioned as possibly being one of the six characters who is working for the Batman Who Laughs.


That would at least be more interesting. It would be something. Have we got an evil Dick Grayson story in the main universe that's not a parallel universe Dick Grayson like Deathwing?




> The whole set up is dumb. I mean apparently Lex goes to the Court and offers them Dick or something, which is what they always wanted except for when they didn't care about him and wanted Bruce when they were introduced, but the thing is that as Ric right now Dick poses no threat or challenge to the Court.


No, they never wanted Bruce. They wanted to assassinate him because he was trying to change Gotham for the better, and when they found out he's Batman it's two birds for one stone. The only time they wanted him if I remember correctly, was when they wanted to summon Barbatos because he's been exposed to the Metals required for the ritual.

...What do they want for the evil heroes by the way?

----------


## Rac7d*

so in forever evil nightwing gets put out
and each and every big cross over event since i began reading

----------


## Badou

> ...What do they want for the evil heroes by the way?


Something about Lex doing all this to prepare for an even bigger threat or something, which is connected to the Batman who Laughs. I got a bit lost following Snyder's JL stories.

----------


## oasis1313

> The whole set up is dumb. I mean apparently Lex goes to the Court and offers them Dick or something, which is what they always wanted except for when they didn't care about him and wanted Bruce when they were introduced, but the thing is that as Ric right now Dick poses no threat or challenge to the Court. They can kill him or take him whenever they want. Dick is a fucking homeless cab driver. What can he offer the Court now anyway? Or what can Lex offer the count in relation to Dick that matters? There is no story there because Ric is such a dead end of creativity, and even the Court is a dead end at this point. 
> 
> So Lex is going around and offering something to villains and some heroes to tie into this Year of the Villain event and I think the Court thing is just the only thing DC could think of to use as a tie in. I don't see it going anywhere like all these garbage tie ins they do for these kind of stories. So I doubt that Dick will be one of the turned characters because it would invalidate the whole Rick crap they have been doing. Since no one would give a shit if they turned Ric's character evil or whatever crap they are planning with these characters in the event. Most would celebrate Ric going evil which is the complete opposite reaction they want for these evil heroes.


Reek got half his brain shot out, and "muscle memory" (yeah, right) won't carry him far.  He's just a shell of his former self.  Nobody's interested in that.

----------


## Restingvoice

Can we use Dan Mora's design for modern Robin costume please? 

tumblr_pr32icWyQk1qjrlno_400.jpg

and his art while we're at it

----------


## Ascended

> The whole set up is dumb. I mean apparently Lex goes to the Court and offers them Dick or something, which is what they always wanted except for when they didn't care about him and wanted Bruce when they were introduced, but the thing is that as Ric right now Dick poses no threat or challenge to the Court. They can kill him or take him whenever they want. Dick is a fucking homeless cab driver. What can he offer the Court now anyway? Or what can Lex offer the count in relation to Dick that matters? There is no story there because Ric is such a dead end of creativity, and even the Court is a dead end at this point.


Well, the Court might consider this a great weak point for Dick, where they can go in and finally get what they want out of him. He's still got the "muscle memory" so I suppose he's still a competent fighter, and with his mental state he could be manipulated or brain washed into being the Court's agent. 

They might be able to fix his brain injury, adding in whatever control mechanisms/mind control to keep him under their influence.

It could be a whole Hydra Winter Soldier type of deal. 

I dunno what DC is planning to do, honesty. Their "efforts" with Dick in recent years have been painfully lacking, and "Ric" is just a whole big can of "we dont care anymore" but that also means if Snyder wants to twist Dick up into a villain for his story DC won't argue. They clearly dont care what anyone does with the character so homeless drunk or Talon assassin, DC management wont care.

----------


## Ascended

> Can we use Dan Mora's design for modern Robin costume please? 
> 
> tumblr_pr32icWyQk1qjrlno_400.jpg
> 
> and his art while we're at it


I'd kill to get Mora on Nightwing. I love his stuff and he'd be a great fit for Dick. But only if we get Nightwing back, all proper and functional again. I would hate to waste Mora on the current version of the character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Can we use Dan Mora's design for modern Robin costume please? 
> 
> tumblr_pr32icWyQk1qjrlno_400.jpg
> 
> and his art while we're at it


that looks like its from the show

----------


## Pohzee

Too techy and armored for my taste

----------


## oasis1313

A magic lasso, too!

----------


## byrd156

> Can we use Dan Mora's design for modern Robin costume please? 
> 
> tumblr_pr32icWyQk1qjrlno_400.jpg
> 
> and his art while we're at it


Put the yellow stripes down the middle of his chest and give him the classic R in a circle and I'll take it. I think those elements are the most important for Dick's Robin costume.

----------


## Rac7d*

tim seely gave me a like

https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...49615427506177

----------


## Badou

That comment about Grayson being ahead of its time and how it would fit in so perfectly with the Leviathan story now is so on point. Just so disheartening.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That comment about Grayson being ahead of its time and how it would fit in so perfectly with the Leviathan story now is so on point. Just so disheartening.


My argument against keeping Grayson was that the Intelligence part of the DCU is so underutilized he would have nothing to do. Their no reason why Dick can't bounce back from being a spy and nightwing considering the tech both incorporate. However Hlena followed dick to gotham and is doing who knows what now so all ties are cut

----------


## oasis1313

It'd be kinda cool to see Dick in some kind of "Mission: Impossible" scenario with a bit of a rotating cast whom he would choose before a story arc.

----------


## MajorHoy

> It'd be kinda cool to see Dick in some kind of "Mission: Impossible" scenario with a bit of a rotating cast whom he would choose before a story arc.


So, sort of a "*Nightwing Task Force*"?

----------


## Elmo

> So, sort of a "*Nightwing Task Force*"?


without Triumph this time please

----------


## MajorHoy

> without Triumph this time please


Triumph didn't enter the picture / series until after issue #15. 
(#16 was one of those "_Zero Hour_" tie-ins where the concept of Triumph was introduced.)

Before then, the series was basically a JL group where members were picked / added for specific missions.

----------


## Elmo

> Triumph didn't enter the picture / series until after issue #15. 
> (#16 was one of those "_Zero Hour_" tie-ins where the concept of Triumph was introduced.)
> 
> Before then, the series was basically a JL group where members were picked / added for specific missions.


 :Confused:  okay? I know what JLTF is and I've read it through and through. again I'm gonna say, "without Triumph this time please"

----------


## Ascended

I think the concept behind Triumph was/is viable and interesting but the execution......yeah, not so much.

----------


## L.H.

This is kinda fun

----------


## Godlike13

That’s pretty awesome.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> This is kinda fun


What is this from?
Pretty cool.

----------


## Ascended

It's from the newest issue of Harley Quinn. I haven't read the issue yet, just flipped through it (I am way, way behind on that title) but it looks like a Jumanji type of thing where Harley, Catwoman, and Harls' new Female Fury friend (I dont know her name) get sucked into a DnD style RPG game.

Best showing Nightwing's had in main continuity in months.....

----------


## Frontier

> This is kinda fun


This is so random and I love it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## byrd156

> This is kinda fun


I would love a series like this. Maybe they can team up with the Atomic Knights.

----------


## L.H.

> What is this from?
> Pretty cool.


Sorry I didn't answer before, I had internet issues. 
Ascend is right, it's from HQ #61. Selina is Gotham's Queen, and they're her knights.

----------


## dropkickjake

hah, yeah I'd read that elseworlds story on a monthly basis. I think Dick's character and personality would make for a fantastic knight in that setting. Plus the rest of the team is a combination hilarious/awesome.

----------


## Restingvoice

What's the name of the book that has all the roleplay stats for Nightwing and the others in the 80s?

----------


## byrd156

> What's the name of the book that has all the roleplay stats for Nightwing and the others in the 80s?


I think I found an ad for the book.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think I found an ad for the book.


Oh... I thought the stats were an insert in an NTT issue or something...

That doesn't look like a book that will be available in comixology anytime soon

----------


## MajorHoy

> Oh... I thought the stats were an insert in an NTT issue or something...
> 
> That doesn't look like a book that will be available in comixology anytime soon


But maybe you can find it through eBay.

----------


## CPSparkles

> This is kinda fun


This is awesome

----------


## Ascended

> What's the name of the book that has all the roleplay stats for Nightwing and the others in the 80s?


I dont know about one from the 80's but a few years back the paper rpg Mutants & Masterminds did a DC book with stats for a lot of characters. I don't recall if Dick or any of the NTT were included though; I never bought it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I dont know about one from the 80's but a few years back the paper rpg Mutants & Masterminds did a DC book with stats for a lot of characters. I don't recall if Dick or any of the NTT were included though; I never bought it.


I checked it and...

"From 2010 through 2016, Green Ronin published the DC Adventures RPG, using the same system as our popular Mutants & Masterminds Superhero Roleplaying Game.

Our license was for four books, and we delivered the DC Adventures Hero’s Handbook, DC Adventures Heroes & Villains volumes 1 and 2, and DC Adventures: Universe.

Because the license expired, we no longer sell these books"

Dang. I didn't know. It's just around 5e launch too. I would've bought it.

----------


## Ascended

> I checked it and...
> 
> "From 2010 through 2016, Green Ronin published the DC Adventures RPG, using the same system as our popular Mutants & Masterminds Superhero Roleplaying Game.
> 
> Our license was for four books, and we delivered the DC Adventures Heros Handbook, DC Adventures Heroes & Villains volumes 1 and 2, and DC Adventures: Universe.
> 
> Because the license expired, we no longer sell these books"
> 
> Dang. I didn't know. It's just around 5e launch too. I would've bought it.


Try eBay?

I flipped through one of the books, and decided I didn't need it. The changes to the system were pretty minor and I liked my designs for the DC characters more than what the official handbook offered. I spent a ton of time stating out heroes and villains for a homegrown DC game and thought those had more variety than the handbooks. 

Definitely looked like a solid book (books, apparently, I didnt know they did four) but just wasn't worth the investment. But I hope you find it!

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Ah remember this time last yr we got Percy’s NW? The Dick-Babs ship was alive and ppl didn’t hate the artist and everything felt ok

----------


## L.H.

> Ah remember this time last yr we got Percys NW? The Dick-Babs ship was alive and ppl didnt hate the artist and everything felt ok


The good old times, when our only complain was about the luddite Dick...  :Frown:

----------


## Pohzee

Are we seriously at a point where we pine nostalgically for Percy? That run was trash. 

More importantly, it was more dangerous trash than Ric because it was superficially appeasing enough that some people overlooked how trash it was. But that is Percy in a nutshell, just look at his Green Arrow.

----------


## L.H.

> Are we seriously at a point where we pine nostalgically for Percy? That run was trash. 
> 
> More importantly, it was more dangerous trash than Ric because it was superficially appeasing enough that some people overlooked how trash it was. But that is Percy in a nutshell, just look at his Green Arrow.


Well, imho Percy's Nightwing was better than Ric: he had a purpouse, a supporting cast and a mask, at least. Just my two cents.

----------


## Elmo

> Are we seriously at a point where we pine nostalgically for Percy? That run was trash. 
> 
> More importantly, it was more dangerous trash than Ric because it was superficially appeasing enough that some people overlooked how trash it was. But that is Percy in a nutshell, just look at his Green Arrow.


I liked his run and his Green Arrow run both very much. Why are you acting like this is something most people agree with you on?

----------


## Pohzee

> I liked his run and his Green Arrow run both very much. Why are you acting like this is something most people agree with you on?


That's why I said that his level of bad is dangerous. It is so inoffensive that it flies under the radar of most people as perfectly acceptable. The fact that it was not the outright level of terribleness something like Ric means that it won't be widely criticized. But it was a boring and pointless run. Unforgettable, dated villains, generic Dick in Blüdhaven doing generic Blüdhaven things, and poorly written stories meant that Dick was going nowhere fast. The stories weren't good, but they aren't classic, memorable, or even good. Ultimately it was just as much of a waste as Ric. If we aren't getting stories worth reading, it doesn't matter how bad they are. Once it is bad enough to stop reading, you stop reading it. So the effect of Percy's run is the same as Ric to me. I can't read Nightwing stories because there are not good ones.

Percy's Nightwing run was the first time that I have ever lost interest in a comic midway through and just stopped reading it, put it down, and never felt the desire to read it again. Even the issues of Ric that I looked through I could finish because it was like reading a trainwreck. Which makes it more entertaining than a fat nothing.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t know the Dark Web villain dealt with some pretty modern issues like data fishing and fake news, and his Dick was criticized for the characters new aversion towards technology. It didn’t take him long to take Dick out of Bludhaven either. Though Mooneyham didn’t pair well with that run or villain at all IMO. 
Hard to say much about Percy’s Nightwing run as it ended before it got a chance to get going, but I liked the villain and that Annual I thought was really good. 

Comparing it to Ric though is silly. Ric has been DC telling Nightwing readers to go F themselves, while at the same time does nothing. They shot him in the head so they could bring in their in house good old boys to say and do nothing with typical decompressed stories to just fill the space. As dangerous as apathy is, flat out insulting readers so they can say and do nothing is another level. And we will see the true repercussions of Ric with whatever they try to do with Dick after Ric. After this flagrant display of creative laziness and editorial incompetence drawing general readers in again is gonna be hard. I believe a real precedent and reputation could have been set. You can’t expect people to give a shit when the people behind the character, and on the character, don’t give a shit and produces blatantly poor lazy work. I honestly think Dick will probably be lucky to sniff the 40ks again after this.

----------


## Elmo

> That's why I said that his level of bad is dangerous. It is so inoffensive that it flies under the radar of most people as perfectly acceptable. The fact that it was not the outright level of terribleness something like Ric means that it won't be widely criticized. But it was a boring and pointless run. Unforgettable, dated villains, generic Dick in Blüdhaven doing generic Blüdhaven things, and poorly written stories meant that Dick was going nowhere fast. The stories weren't good, but they aren't classic, memorable, or even good. Ultimately it was just as much of a waste as Ric. If we aren't getting stories worth reading, it doesn't matter how bad they are. Once it is bad enough to stop reading, you stop reading it. So the effect of Percy's run is the same as Ric to me. I can't read Nightwing stories because there are not good ones.
> 
> Percy's Nightwing run was the first time that I have ever lost interest in a comic midway through and just stopped reading it, put it down, and never felt the desire to read it again. Even the issues of Ric that I looked through I could finish because it was like reading a trainwreck. Which makes it more entertaining than a fat nothing.


Sounds like you're just coming up with a long and unnecessary justification for people liking something that you don't like. It's really not a big deal and you labeling it as "dangerous" is very perplexing

----------


## Ascended

I wasn't super thrilled with Percy's first issue and decided to wait a few months to see how things went. Decided to step back in with the motorcycle death race story, and my LCS screwed up the order and I didn't get the issues until Percy was already gone. But I really did love those three issues (three? Two?). That was exactly the kind of Nightwing I wanted to read. 

But since he was already gone I never bothered picking up the rest of his run. 

I thought Percy's Arrow was decent. Not mind blowing but worth keeping up with in trade.

----------


## byrd156

> I liked his run and his Green Arrow run both very much. Why are you acting like this is something most people agree with you on?


I agree with him. You can look back in the thread history when that run was coming out and it was thought of as either meh, bad, or I want Grayson back.

----------


## byrd156

> I wasn't super thrilled with Percy's first issue and decided to wait a few months to see how things went. Decided to step back in with the motorcycle death race story, and my LCS screwed up the order and I didn't get the issues until Percy was already gone. But I really did love those three issues (three? Two?). That was exactly the kind of Nightwing I wanted to read. 
> 
> But since he was already gone I never bothered picking up the rest of his run. 
> 
> I thought Percy's Arrow was decent. Not mind blowing but worth keeping up with in trade.


Those issues were fun, though I didn't care about Silencer at all.

----------


## dropkickjake

> That's why I said that his level of bad is dangerous. It is so inoffensive that it flies under the radar of most people as perfectly acceptable. The fact that it was not the outright level of terribleness something like Ric means that it won't be widely criticized. But it was a boring and pointless run. Unforgettable, dated villains, generic Dick in Blüdhaven doing generic Blüdhaven things, and poorly written stories meant that Dick was going nowhere fast. The stories weren't good, but they aren't classic, memorable, or even good. Ultimately it was just as much of a waste as Ric. If we aren't getting stories worth reading, it doesn't matter how bad they are. Once it is bad enough to stop reading, you stop reading it. So the effect of Percy's run is the same as Ric to me. I can't read Nightwing stories because there are not good ones.
> 
> Percy's Nightwing run was the first time that I have ever lost interest in a comic midway through and just stopped reading it, put it down, and never felt the desire to read it again. Even the issues of Ric that I looked through I could finish because it was like reading a trainwreck. Which makes it more entertaining than a fat nothing.


I think you misspelled "I didn't like it." Calling it generic is super off base. He was building on a very specific concept dealing with the Dark Web (which is something he researched pretty heavily). I'm not sure where he was going with it overall. I'm not sure if I would have liked it. Luddite Dick didn't seem to make sense to me at first, but I could see the argument for it especially when we started to see that it wasn't going to be as extreme luddite as we first imagined. But generic and pointless it was not.

----------


## Ascended

> Those issues were fun, though I didn't care about Silencer at all.


Well, as a Nightwing fan I'd have been quite happy to keep the story focused completely on him.  :Smile:  I think Percy was trying really hard to make Silencer look interesting and drum up some hype and that effort seemed pretty transparent, which detracted from the otherwise fantastic story.

But at the same time, this was trying to hype up the New Age line, which I was a big fan and supporter of. So I'm glad that *some* effort was made to get those characters out there in the public eye. Even if it wasn't maybe the best possible choice for the story (or executed as well as it might've been) I'm still glad he did it.

But obviously that's totally a bias on my part.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> Luddite Dick didn't seem to make sense to me at first, but I could see the argument for it especially when we started to see that it wasn't going to be as extreme luddite as we first imagined.


How did that play out? Like I said, I never read the run beyond the death race and first issue. 

I could see the argument that Dick's among the least tech-savvy Bats. But a lot of Bats are insanely competent programmers and hackers. But just to operate the gadgets and tools at his disposal Dick would have to be *at least* as competent as your average office jockey. He'd have to be computer literate just to drive the damn car. 

How did Percy end up spinning it?

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing was the lowest selling in continuity Batbook in April. Congratulations Nightwing team. You guys should really be proud of your work on the title, lol.

----------


## Zaresh

> Nightwing was the lowest selling Batbook in April. Congratulations Nightwing team. You guys should really be proud of your work on the title, lol.


Batman Beyond sold less.
It lost about 500-1k readers, though, which isn't good. But it wasn't the worst selling yet.

----------


## WallyWestFlash

I didn't even get to Percy's run. Humphries horrible the judge story killed the series for me and I dropped it.

----------


## Elmo

> I agree with him. You can look back in the thread history when that run was coming out and it was thought of as either meh, bad, or I want Grayson back.


Okay? thanks for telling me? lmao

----------


## byrd156

> Okay? thanks for telling me? lmao


You're welcome.

----------


## Pohzee

Edit: Nah nevermind I won't bring up the cereal.

----------


## byrd156

> Edit: Nah nevermind I won't bring up the cereal.


Remember the mobile command center? I don't think anyone else did at DC.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing was the lowest selling in continuity Batbook in April. Congratulations Nightwing team. You guys should really be proud of your work on the title, lol.


It makes me sad but it will only make the jump when he returns to dick seem more grand

----------


## WonderNight

> It makes me sad but it will only make the jump when he returns to dick seem more grand


what do you guys want dick to return to after this ric stuff is done? It cant just be the same old same old things after this right?

----------


## Godlike13

The pitch thread has a bunch of ideas. Unfortunately though the same people responsible for Ric will probably be responsible for what comes after. So ya, we’ll probably either get the same old same old and/or another lazy recycled idea. I can see their bullshit reasoning for it too, oh we tried something different but fans didn’t give it a chance.

----------


## yohyoi

> what do you guys want dick to return to after this ric stuff is done? It cant just be the same old same old things after this right?


That's if he returns. Ric is looking like it will be a big part of his future. To sideline him. To lower him. To destroy him.

----------


## dropkickjake

> How did that play out? Like I said, I never read the run beyond the death race and first issue. 
> 
> I could see the argument that Dick's among the least tech-savvy Bats. But a lot of Bats are insanely competent programmers and hackers. But just to operate the gadgets and tools at his disposal Dick would have to be *at least* as competent as your average office jockey. He'd have to be computer literate just to drive the damn car. 
> 
> How did Percy end up spinning it?


He sorta came off as the "Social media is the devil and we shouldn't trust the internet type." I think he was computer competent, but preferred to punch his problems. He would defer to Babs about computer stuff. Percy was using Babs as a supporting character and I think was angling for their relationship.




> Edit: Nah nevermind I won't bring up the cereal.


If something as small as him liking cereal made you mad... I don't even know man.

----------


## Badou

King gave another interview and it is interesting to see how in his interviews now he completely ignores shooting Dick in the head. It has been a completely inconsequential event in his Batman book. They constantly bring up Catwoman leaving him at the alter and how Bane is using that to "break" him, but zero mention by King or the interviewers about shooting Dick in the head. It shows you how little they really care about Dick's character when Bruce getting left at the alter is the BIG thing they focus on instead of Dick getting his brains blown out in front of Bruce, lol.

----------


## Godlike13

King doesn’t want to touch Ric, and what shooting him in the head head has turned into, anymore then anyone else. Plus wasn’t there a podcast where he said he was warned not to talk about Ric or something.

----------


## Lazurus33

I heard a old podcast with Tom King on Gotham by geeks podcast ep 114 it's around 01:19:38 mark. King wanted to shoot Grayson in the head and Tim Drake would be helping Dick recover with them sharing the book and King said this was inspired by his Uncle having a stroke with King's mom helping him recover.

https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...-114-tom-king/

----------


## disillusion386

> I heard a old podcast with Tom King on Gotham by geeks podcast ep 114 it's around 01:19:38 mark. King wanted to shoot Grayson in the head and Tim Drake would be helping Dick recover with them sharing the book and King said this was inspired by his Uncle having a stroke with King's mom helping him recover.
> 
> https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...-114-tom-king/


Don't have time to listen to the podcast right this moment, but which book was King talking about that Dick and Tim would have shared?

Also, this would have been the type of story that would have been actually emotionally powerful. Coming back from trauma (heart attacks, strokes, comas, accidents, etc.) is something that resonates with tons of people. Instead, we have Ric whose current plot trajectory is so hackneyed and a set of forgettable side characters that no one will care about once this is all over.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I heard a old podcast with Tom King on Gotham by geeks podcast ep 114 it's around 01:19:38 mark. King wanted to shoot Grayson in the head and Tim Drake would be helping Dick recover with them sharing the book and King said this was inspired by his Uncle having a stroke with King's mom helping him recover.
> 
> https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...-114-tom-king/


but why do this to dick?

----------


## Elmo

> but why do this to dick?


For this reason:



> This would have been the type of story that would have been actually emotionally powerful. Coming back from trauma (heart attacks, strokes, comas, accidents, etc.) is something that resonates with tons of people. Instead, we have Ric whose current plot trajectory is so hackneyed and a set of forgettable side characters that no one will care about once this is all over.


Many people would have resonated with it and we would have gotten a Tim/Dick book. In the same way that Tim helped Bruce in LPoD he would be helping Dick through his trauma, which is supposed to be Tim's role but it often gets neglected. It would be a dream come true.

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing is such an unimportant mantle in-universe there is no reason for Tim to pick it up. And given both their relationship and her history, it would've been much more interesting to see Barbara nursing Dick back to health.

But she has her own book I guess.

----------


## disillusion386

> For this reason:
> 
> 
> Many people would have resonated with it and we would have gotten a Tim/Dick book. In the same way that Tim helped Bruce in LPoD he would be helping Dick through his trauma, which is supposed to be Tim's role but it often gets neglected. It would be a dream come true.


Yeah, definitely. The fact that King was planning on using something deeply personal to him as the inspiration for the story makes me think it would have been a great arc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> For this reason:
> 
> 
> Many people would have resonated with it and we would have gotten a Tim/Dick book. In the same way that Tim helped Bruce in LPoD he would be helping Dick through his trauma, which is supposed to be Tim's role but it often gets neglected. It would be a dream come true.


But tim and dick are not close? Tim already said jason is his go to guy. It be weird, wouldn't Alfred, Barbra hell i could even see damian spoon feeding him soup grumpily. Also its hard for me to see permanent physical truama when his step brother is  the heri to the lazzarus pitt and he has contact with what 3 mystical healers. Even his memory loss is dumb when he knows people like Miss Martian, Raven and Lilth

I though dc didnt care about familial relationships, isnt that why Jon is 17 superman and Lois raising  child is not adventurous

----------


## JoeZ

> King gave another interview and it is interesting to see how in his interviews now he completely ignores shooting Dick in the head. It has been a completely inconsequential event in his Batman book. They constantly bring up Catwoman leaving him at the alter and how Bane is using that to "break" him, but zero mention by King or the interviewers about shooting Dick in the head. It shows you how little they really care about Dick's character when Bruce getting left at the alter is the BIG thing they focus on instead of Dick getting his brains blown out in front of Bruce, lol.


Even all these months after the shot, Bruce and Dick never interacted.
Dammit, Dick doesn't interact with any of his brothers, not even Damian.
It breaks my heart.  :Frown:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Even all these months after the shot, Bruce and Dick never interacted.
> Dammit, Dick doesn't interact with any of his brothers, not even Damian.
> It breaks my heart.


With the exception of damian they would all end the same way it did with babs

If damian showed up, Ric would have to feel guilty,  or be a total ass

----------


## Frontier

> But tim and dick are not close? Tim already said jason is his go to guy. It be weird, wouldn't Alfred, Barbra hell i could even see damian spoon feeding him soup grumpily. Also its hard for me to see permanent physical truama when his step brother is  the heri to the lazzarus pitt and he has contact with what 3 mystical healers. Even his memory loss is dumb when he knows people like Miss Martian, Raven and Lilth
> 
> I though dc didnt care about familial relationships, isnt that why Jon is 17 superman and Lois raising  child is not adventurous


It looks like Dick is going to be in the _Hush_ animated movie more then I was expecting  :Smile: .

----------


## Elmo

> But tim and dick are not close? Tim already said jason is his go to guy. It be weird, wouldn't Alfred, Barbra hell i could even see damian spoon feeding him soup grumpily. Also its hard for me to see permanent physical truama when his step brother is  the heri to the lazzarus pitt and he has contact with what 3 mystical healers. Even his memory loss is dumb when he knows people like Miss Martian, Raven and Lilth


I don't know what comics you've read that give you the impression that Tim is closer with Jason than he is with Dick but I don't really agree. Tim's relationships with both Dick and Bruce are part of his foundations as a hero. Dick was there at Tim's beginning so it's compelling to me that Tim would be there at Dick's figurative "end," or at least his stumble. I don't think there would be any "spoon feeding" or Dick incapacitated with Tim hovering overing him like a loving nurse, but more like Tim would be all "you're still a hero," "I'll have your back until you feel 100%," stuff like that. Basically Tim being a buddy. Tim has always been pretty empathic and has a lot of great consolation moments with other heroes. This type of story I think would be pretty well received. I guess we'll never know now though, DC went a different way.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't know what comics you've read that give you the impression that Tim is closer with Jason than he is with Dick but I don't really agree. Tim's relationships with both Dick and Bruce are part of his foundations as a hero. Dick was there at Tim's beginning so it's compelling to me that Tim would be there at Dick's figurative "end," or at least his stumble. I don't think there would be any "spoon feeding" or Dick incapacitated with Tim hovering overing him like a loving nurse, but more like Tim would be all "you're still a hero," "I'll have your back until you feel 100%," stuff like that. Basically Tim being a buddy. Tim has always been pretty empathic and has a lot of great consolation moments with other heroes. This type of story I think would be pretty well received. I guess we'll never know now though, DC went a different way.


New 52 was when they make Tim and Jason a thing. Tim's inspiration and motivation to become Robin in New 52 was Jason, and they're paired together often since Lobdell was in charge of both. Even after Tynion brought back A Lonely Place of Dying in Rebirth, Tim and Dick haven't interacted that often.

I think there was a discussion when we first found out about King's idea about Tim Nightwing that it won't work as well these days because they're not as close as in Post Crisis.

----------


## Badou

> I don't know what comics you've read that give you the impression that Tim is closer with Jason than he is with Dick but I don't really agree. Tim's relationships with both Dick and Bruce are part of his foundations as a hero. Dick was there at Tim's beginning so it's compelling to me that Tim would be there at Dick's figurative "end," or at least his stumble. I don't think there would be any "spoon feeding" or Dick incapacitated with Tim hovering overing him like a loving nurse, but more like Tim would be all "you're still a hero," "I'll have your back until you feel 100%," stuff like that. Basically Tim being a buddy. Tim has always been pretty empathic and has a lot of great consolation moments with other heroes. This type of story I think would be pretty well received. I guess we'll never know now though, DC went a different way.


Dick and Tim have barely spoken to each other since the 2011 reboot. They aren't as close as they were before the reboot and don't have much of a relationship anymore. In the New 52 DC made Dick/Damian a pair and Tim/Jason a pair and was the big reason for devaluing the Dick and Tim relationship to the point where Tim did say he only considered Jason as brother. And like Restingvoice said, they also made it that Jason was Tim's motivation for becoming Robin too.

----------


## WonderNight

I'm  ready for dick to leave the bat nest honestly. They have no plans or direction or niche for him there and the nest is bloated and he isn't even close to most of them. Outside of Bruce, babs and Damian.

It time for dick grayson to grow up or go back to robin.

----------


## byrd156

> I'm  ready for dick to leave the bat nest honestly. They have no plans or direction or niche for him there and the nest is bloated and he isn't even close to most of them. Outside of Bruce, babs and Damian.
> 
> It time for dick grayson to grow up or go back to robin.


That's not gonna happen under the current heads at DC.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Dick and Tim have barely spoken to each other since the 2011 reboot. They aren't as close as they were before the reboot and don't have much of a relationship anymore. In the New 52 DC made Dick/Damian a pair and Tim/Jason a pair and was the big reason for devaluing the Dick and Tim relationship to the point where Tim did say he only considered Jason as brother. And like Restingvoice said, they also made it that Jason was Tim's motivation for becoming Robin too.


Tom King seems like he doesn't really care for all the n52 retcons though, and since rebirth he has all the excuse he needs to dismiss them and rebuild the relationships from before 2012. That probably why it was Tim in his idea. Remember Tim and Dick's brief interaction in Grayson? Felt more like the Batman Reborn era than N52.

----------


## Lazurus33

*SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS*

In Batman #71  Batgirl calls Ric (Dick)  to come help Batman.

1.jpg2.jpg

----------


## dropkickjake

> *SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS*
> 
> In Batman #71  Batgirl calls Ric (Dick)  to come help Batman.
> 
> 1.jpg2.jpg


Holy shit that made me angry.

----------


## Schumiac

I don't even know why they would want Ric there (guess supposed to show how desperate they are). He would be a liability (and normally Bruce wouldn't want him in this condition). Muscle memory can only work so far. But really awesome of Bruce to have Babs call on him when he couldn't bother get in touch with Dick himself for a second till now.

Still, disappointing to see him refuse, given he is playing hero dress up with the cops of Blüdhaven just fine.

Also, heh, Jason...

----------


## Elmo

> Dick and Tim have barely spoken to each other since the 2011 reboot. They aren't as close as they were before the reboot and don't have much of a relationship anymore. In the New 52 DC made Dick/Damian a pair and Tim/Jason a pair and was the big reason for devaluing the Dick and Tim relationship to the point where Tim did say he only considered Jason as brother. And like Restingvoice said, they also made it that Jason was Tim's motivation for becoming Robin too.


That's exactly why this book would be a dream come true, and just because they haven't been as close since the reboot doesn't mean decades of history is negated. And I think that was clearly what Tom King was trying to illustrate. Just because something isn't the "status quo" doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I still don't agree that Tim is closer with Jason.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, Dick is...Ric. Yeah. You can read the shame all over Batmans face. I do have to say though, its nice to see someone else getting punched for a change.

----------


## dietrich

> LoL, Dick is...Ric. Yeah. You can read the shame all over Batmans face. I do have to say though, its nice to see someone else getting punched for a change.


Honestly Babs saying that felt like the writer giving a middle finger to the fans. Maybe he was aiming for humour but tired of King's brand of humour.

----------


## Godlike13

Read it more as King acknowledging that this “Ric” thing is dumb. Even when Babs called, it’s I know your going through a thing. Which is dismissive. Then she just says “Ric” as a catch all that’s self explanatory as to why Dick didn’t show, followed by Batman’s clear look away of shame lol.

----------


## disillusion386

> Read it more as King acknowledging that this “Ric” thing is dumb. Even when Babs called, it’s I know your going through a thing. Which is dismissive. Then she just says “Ric” as a catch all to explain why Dick didn’t show, followed by Batman’s clear look away of shame lol.


That's how I saw that scene too. It was just a way for King to acknowledge that Dick (and Jason) still exist while providing a quick scene to explain why they weren't part of the bat-fam mission.

----------


## Pohzee

https://buff.ly/2W9dWwC

*Nightwing was shot, and that fallout has appeared in his title as "Ric Grayson." As you get to the end, are you wanting to pull some of those characters affected by all this back into the mix, or is it natural that that stuff will defuse?*

"Well, I can't speak for Ric, but this whole arc of 100 issues has been about two things: Bane is evil and Batman loves Catwoman.

...

Dick Grayson, to me, is the fourth pillar of the DCU. No one can destroy him. They can only injure him until it's time for him to come back, which I think is cool. So I don't feel like I've hurt that character in any way, but what happens in that book is up to them. I don't control Nightwing in any way. And that's fine."

Very cool. Thank you.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, ya sounds like he's loving Ric as much everyone else. Unfortunately though it doesn't seem like its gonna end any time soon or there are any plans in the works or anything. God damn, Ric is gonna last longer then Grayson isn't it.

----------


## Badou

It all happened because of King. He was the one that shot him in the head, derailed Dick's solo book, and then did nothing with it in his own Batman title leaving the Nightwing book to deal with it completely. I get King thinks Ric is shit probably, but I think he needed to take some responsibility for it too. He can't completely pass it off as it being someone's elses problem and wash his hands of it when he was the originator. He finally acknowledged it in an interview after so long after being asked which was nice, but I think if you do something that "shocking" and have no intention of following up on it then you shouldn't have done it in the first place. It has barely played a role in King's Batman book too, which makes it not worth it in any aspect. 




> *SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS*
> 
> In Batman #71  Batgirl calls Ric (Dick)  to come help Batman.
> 
> Attachment 82349Attachment 82350


Jason's response was great. Really echoed a lot of reader's feelings I bet, lol.

----------


## Rac7d*

end it talon kill them all

----------


## Godlike13

Jurgan’s doesn’t have the balls, and honestly that kind of thing is not what he’s on the title to do. The Nightwings are a reflection of the people behind Ric creative and professional ability, and they are going to protect their shit.

----------


## Frontier

> end it talon kill them all


...Is it wrong that I'm rooting for Talon  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Restingvoice

> end it talon kill them all


Dick's not even on the cover now. I don't know if I should be happy or not because I don't want to see Ric on the cover.

----------


## Schumiac

Talon breaking the Nightwing logo... It should change really, given "Ric" wants nothing to do with Batman and is not part of that world anymore & is not even Nightwing. Doesn't look like it will change anytime soon either. So just rename the book "Nightwings" change the logo and be done with it.

And those amateurs should not be able to take down Talon...

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, Ric wants nothing to do with that world. He just want’s to be the Nightwings sidekick. Cause, well, he doesn’t even know why.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It all happened because of King. He was the one that shot him in the head, derailed Dick's solo book, and then did nothing with it in his own Batman title leaving the Nightwing book to deal with it completely. I get King thinks Ric is shit probably, but I think he needed to take some responsibility for it too. He can't completely pass it off as it being someone's elses problem and wash his hands of it when he was the originator. He finally acknowledged it in an interview after so long after being asked which was nice, but I think if you do something that "shocking" and have no intention of following up on it then you shouldn't have done it in the first place. It has barely played a role in King's Batman book too, which makes it not worth it in any aspect. 
> 
> 
> 
> Jason's response was great. Really echoed a lot of reader's feelings I bet, lol.


As it happens, Seeley just had a very interesting Twitter discussion about superhero comics as Shock Porn. He didnt reference Ric, and I cant link right now, but his Twitter handle is @HackinTimSeeley. Might be worth a look.

----------


## Ascended

Maybe they could try shocking us with some friggin quality Nightwing?

----------


## byrd156

> Maybe they could try shocking us with some friggin quality Nightwing?


That would be really surprising.

----------


## K. Jones

> Maybe they could try shocking us with some friggin quality Nightwing?


It was called "Grayson".
And then it was called "Nightwing by Tim Seeley".
And then it was gone.

----------


## RickWJ324

> Ya, Ric wants nothing to do with that world. He just want’s to be the Nightwings sidekick. Cause, we’ll, he doesn’t even know why.


Right??!!  So he wants nothing to do with the Bat family, doesn't want to be Nightwing, YET... he wants to be the sidekick to these wannabe-vigilantes?!  WTF!!

----------


## L.H.

What if Dick is the one behind the Talon mask?

----------


## Frontier

There will be a Nightwing costume in season 2 of _Titans_.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There will be a Nightwing costume in season 2 of _Titans_.


We already knew that. I dont why they destroyed the suit so soon, I knew he couldn't stay robin, once Jason had introduced himself but it will definitely be 4-5 episodes before the Nightwing persona comes together. it takes time to sort out and idenity and get a good suit, but with starlabs and superboy arriving that might not be a problem

----------


## Restingvoice

> What if Dick is the one behind the Talon mask?


I'd be interested

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'd be interested


If the talon took this opportunity to get him it would be wise he vulnerable and all alone
I also never minded the look

----------


## byrd156

> There will be a Nightwing costume in season 2 of _Titans_.


In other news water is wet.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I hope good writing and characterizations along with some actual editing will be in season 2 as well.

----------


## OWL45

That would be interesting. Right now the character and the book are both have nothing happening.

----------


## Badou

> As it happens, Seeley just had a very interesting Twitter discussion about superhero comics as Shock Porn. He didnt reference Ric, and I cant link right now, but his Twitter handle is @HackinTimSeeley. Might be worth a look.


Read the discussing and it seems this tweet came from the latest GoT episode, but I think he was applying it to other things too. I agree with what Seeley said in some circumstances, but in the context of the GoT episode I don't know if it works. Since the GoT series is reaching its finale and fans want it to have a satisfying conclusion that make it feel like the investment was worth it. Which is different from doing something shocking in the middle of the series to drum up attention. They have the fan attention already and now they need to pay off all that time fans made into it. They can still do shocking things and have twists, but if the ending isn't satisfying it will tarnish the series probably for many. 

Although in reference to superhero comics I think his quote works well. They don't have a conclusion and go on forever. So they constantly have to find ways to get readers attention and the easiest way is to do something shocking and try and generate buzz. Things that piss readers off. So it is an endless cycle of shock porn to grab attention, and then trying to tell a story when you have that attention, but then having to use more shock porn every time attention slips. Mad people will still pay attention because they are still invested, but bored people won't. Ric Grayson is an example of it. I no longer pay DC money for it but I am still paying attention even if it is just to see when it ends.

----------


## Godlike13

Shooting him head and the amnesia isn’t even the worse part about Ric. Its what came with it. The last minute creators with noting to say and no actual plan, their boring bloated drawn out stories that have no point and needlessly insults readers simply because they don’t actually have anything insightful or profound to say, this blatant recycling of We Are Robin combine with Superheavy, etc, etc. And you can already see them use Ric as a mask to hide the fact that the real problem is really the editors and creators poor and lazy work.

----------


## Lazurus33

August 2019

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNTUvOTEzL29yaWdpbmFsL05XXzYzX3Zhci5qcGc=.jpgNIGHTWING #63 

written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE
cover by BRUNO REDONDO
variant cover by WARREN LOUW
While the Nightwings recover from their last battle against the fiendish Burnback, Ric reflects on the small portion of his past that he rememberslife in the circus as the youngest member of the Flying Graysonsin hopes of finding any clues as to what kind of man his parents hoped hed becomeperhaps a certain Talon has the answers he seeks?

----------


## Badou

What a brilliant idea. He only has his memories from before he was Robin and when he was in the circus. Makes sense that time and setting would be the first place he goes back to in order to try and piece together his life after getting shot... Oh wait, it is 8 months after he got shot and they are only NOW fucking doing it. What a joke.

----------


## Schumiac

Well at least  he is FINALLY doing something - though here is hoping he won't do it whining about NW and his life before for the zillionth time.
I assume he will realize his parents never wanted him to be a drinking, gambling, leeching off others dirty bum who lives in a cab and has no real job or destination in life, so maybe he will start doing something with his life.

Do we have Jurgens to thank for this little bit of -what looks to be- development? Though as this is Dc and "Ric", hesitate the call it development till I see the issue.

----------


## Restingvoice

> August 2019
> 
> aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNTUvOTEzL29yaWdpbmFsL05XXzYzX3Zhci5qcGc=.jpgNIGHTWING #63 
> 
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> variant cover by WARREN LOUW
> While the Nightwings recover from their last battle against the fiendish Burnback, Ric reflects on the small portion of his past that he remembers—life in the circus as the youngest member of the Flying Graysons—in hopes of finding any clues as to what kind of man his parents hoped he’d become…perhaps a certain Talon has the answers he seeks?


Finallyyyy... something! I can't believe it took them this long to do this. The Court swooping in to make him a Talon should've been day one.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well at least  he is FINALLY doing something - though here is hoping he won't do it whining about NW and his life before for the zillionth time.
> I assume he will realize his parents never wanted him to be a drinking, gambling, leeching off others dirty bum who lives in a cab and has no real job or destination in life, so maybe he will start doing something with his life.
> 
> Do we have Jurgens to thank for this little bit of -what looks to be- development? Though as this is Dc and "Ric", hesitate the call it development till I see the issue.


More likely he’ll realize his parents would never want him to be a good super hero, and believes his parents would be proud of the loser that he is now. Just like the crap with Babs.

----------


## byrd156

> August 2019
> 
> aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNTUvOTEzL29yaWdpbmFsL05XXzYzX3Zhci5qcGc=.jpgNIGHTWING #63 
> 
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> variant cover by WARREN LOUW
> While the Nightwings recover from their last battle against the fiendish Burnback, Ric reflects on the small portion of his past that he remembers—life in the circus as the youngest member of the Flying Graysons—in hopes of finding any clues as to what kind of man his parents hoped he’d become…perhaps a certain Talon has the answers he seeks?


Why is the Robin R Tim's design?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## OWL45

> Finallyyyy... something! I can't believe it took them this long to do this. The Court swooping in to make him a Talon should've been day one.


I agree but Im also happy they are doing something with the character. The past few months have been rough. This sounds interesting and has potential.

----------


## K. Jones

> Why is the Robin R Tim's design?


Tangent ... Tim's supposed to get a new superhero name but it doesn't look especially like he'll get a costume change, unless the solicits and cover art are all secret surprise lies.

So what are the odds he finally gets a codename that starts with "R" like Redbird or Redwing?

----------


## Badou

I still think this is just Jurgens writing whatever DC editorial tells him to. I don't think he has any investment in this story. Though I said from the very beginning that it made zero sense for "Ric" to go back to Bludhaven. As he has zero connection there and the way they set it up it would be the last place he would want to go if he is trying to get away from Dick's life. He should have gone back to the circus, or what is left of it, from the start if he is trying to find some direction. It is so frustrating how they wrote this garbage story.

----------


## Ascended

Well, if nothing else Jurgens is a real pro. I'm sure he got handed this assignment not because he's interested or invested in the direction but because he's an employee and his bosses told him this was the gig. But that said, he doesn't seem the kind of guy to half-ass a job even if he's not really feeling the story. So I wouldn't be surprised if this is Jurgens just trying to make the most of the situation he and the character have been put in. If he's stuck writing this idiotic Ric stuff, he'll at least try to make it worthwhile. 

Now, whether Jurgens can actually make this readable is another thing entirely, but it seems to me that he's at least going to do the best he can with what he's got, which is more than I can say for editorial.

----------


## K. Jones

> I still think this is just Jurgens writing whatever DC editorial tells him to. I don't think he has any investment in this story. Though I said from the very beginning that it made zero sense for "Ric" to go back to Bludhaven. As he has zero connection there and the way they set it up it would be the last place he would want to go if he is trying to get away from Dick's life. He should have gone back to the circus, or what is left of it, from the start if he is trying to find some direction. It is so frustrating how they wrote this garbage story.


Said this in the Superman thread, but ...

Dick is Leviathan and "Ric" is just DC running out the bad storyline to be the perfect red herring for the big twist in the Bendis story.

----------


## Pohzee

> Said this in the Superman thread, but ...
> 
> Dick is Leviathan and "Ric" is just DC running out the bad storyline to be the perfect red herring for the big twist in the Bendis story.


I saw that and I think there may be some interesting credence to this.

Take for example the conversations with the heroes in the Leviathan promo.

Batman: Your war on crime accomplishes nothing. *I've tried it your way.*

He addresses Batgirl as Barbara and she is the first person he tries to convince to join his cause.

Plastic Man: You and I were born into a broken world and *it almost killed us*. We both figured out we needed to *start over*.

And then of course the Spyral/Leviathan connection from Grayson.

Some of this is pretty generic and not strong evidence, but I'm still kinda hoping for it because literally anything else is better than what we have right now. Particularly anything spy related or that puts Dick in a place of importance in the DCU (which he isn't right now.)

----------


## Godlike13

If only...

----------


## jules

> Said this in the Superman thread, but ...
> 
> Dick is Leviathan and "Ric" is just DC running out the bad storyline to be the perfect red herring for the big twist in the Bendis story.


Cant be true though. Dick is always unavailable for event stories. :-)

Except if hes scheduled to die in them, so lets hope that if it should turn out to be him that that isnt on the cards for an ending.

That qualification aside, I could get behind this idea. Given the various familial, personal and professional relationships and clashes that the Bat family have had with Spyral/Leviathan, they should have a strong involvement with this story, and Id love to see Dick regain his spy associations, even if hes still in a state of some confusion.

Of course Id like the character to be recognisable enough to convince me to buy his title again even more, but... tiny steps.

I remain glad that I switched entirely to digital some years back, so that I could buy based on preview pages and word of mouth rather than have to commit to something I might hate 3 months in advance, but Id really like to be able to buy a DC title again. Ive always been primarily a DC reader, but right now so many of my favourite characters are dead, brain dead, or cancelled that Ive pretty much soured on them and run screaming to Marvel for comfort. Never thought that would happen.

----------


## dietrich

> August 2019
> 
> Attachment 82479NIGHTWING #63 
> 
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> variant cover by WARREN LOUW
> While the Nightwings recover from their last battle against the fiendish Burnback, Ric reflects on the small portion of his past that he remembers—life in the circus as the youngest member of the Flying Graysons—in hopes of finding any clues as to what kind of man his parents hoped he’d become…perhaps a certain Talon has the answers he seeks?


that's an awesome cover and the solicits sounds like baby steps to getting Dick Grayson back to himself.

I like the Grayson as Leviathan split personality idea. Makes more sense than the Red Hood with Dick's background as Agent 37

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Dick being Leviathan is interesting but highly unlikely, since the COIE any event evolving Dick was either bad for him or to use him for Batman and while Bendis has no outright bias against Dick, Ric by August is just getting into Another Court Of Owls plot so it will have to be some kind of Duplicate/Doppelgänger

----------


## lemonpeace

I just got in on the Ric Grayson saga to see what's gotten all the Nightwing fans so riled up and surprisingly it's not bad; it's actually pretty good. The dialogue can be stronger here and there but it's nothing so bad that it takes me completely out of it and the ideas are always there. I like the characters behind the new team of Nightwings, particularly Sap and Hutch. It feels like Sap is doomed to fall morally or die tragically and they are setting up Hutch for a role fighting next to Dick after Ric returns to being Dick/Nightwing but i could be wrong.

----------


## Badou

> I saw that and I think there may be some interesting credence to this.
> 
> Take for example the conversations with the heroes in the Leviathan promo.
> 
> Batman: Your war on crime accomplishes nothing. *I've tried it your way.*
> 
> He addresses Batgirl as Barbara and she is the first person he tries to convince to join his cause.
> 
> Plastic Man: You and I were born into a broken world and *it almost killed us*. We both figured out we needed to *start over*.
> ...


I'd be fine with anything else, but I don't think Batman editorial will allow it. Who knows though. 




> I just got in on the Ric Grayson saga to see what's gotten all the Nightwing fans so riled up and surprisingly it's not bad; it's actually pretty good. The dialogue can be stronger here and there but it's nothing so bad that it takes me completely out of it and the ideas are always there. I like the characters behind the new team of Nightwings, particularly Sap and Hutch. It feels like Sap is doomed to fall morally or die tragically and they are setting up Hutch for a role fighting next to Dick after Ric returns to being Dick/Nightwing but i could be wrong.


I personally think it is the worst story Dick has ever been written in. It is a mess on nearly every level of production. The direction made no sense, how they tried to set up this story made no sense, the constant hitting readers over the head with how Ric shits on Dick's life, Ric acting like an asshole for no reason, his complaining, turning Ric into a homeless squatter, giving him another dumb job as a cab driver this time, the boring and bland cops that are a bad rip off of the Superheavy and We Are Robin story, the endless pages of recaps and Ric narration, the lack of any heroes caring about what happened outside Barbara, the horrendous management problems, having Percy leave after one issue after his story got derailed, DC putting in-house writers to write an editorial mandated story with Lobdell and Jurgens that don't care about the story, Lobdell didn't even bother writing the issues himself and had others script his plots for him, the inconsistent art, the Eric Esquivel mess, how this slow grind of a story story has gone on for 8 months now, and how creators on the book are fleeing it and how other creators want to ignore this book is even going on. I think it is a perfect example of everything that is wrong with modern superhero comics.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> I just got in on the Ric Grayson saga to see what's gotten all the Nightwing fans so riled up and surprisingly it's not bad; it's actually pretty good. The dialogue can be stronger here and there but it's nothing so bad that it takes me completely out of it and the ideas are always there. I like the characters behind the new team of Nightwings, particularly Sap and Hutch. It feels like Sap is doomed to fall morally or die tragically and they are setting up Hutch for a role fighting next to Dick after Ric returns to being Dick/Nightwing but i could be wrong.


The story has no heart and isn’t Dick Grayson. It’s going nowhere and it’s lackluster.  Generally I’ve seen that most who don’t mind the story weren’t invested in Dick as a character and his role in the DC Universe beforehand. I don’t need to repeat Badou cause that’s pretty much it. If you ain’t Justice League or have a big writer in your corner DC don’t give a damn about you these days. I personally feel it lost what Rebirth was originally trying to do with the character and address issues with him instead of add on to em

----------


## Restingvoice

> I just got in on the Ric Grayson saga to see what's gotten all the Nightwing fans so riled up and surprisingly it's not bad; it's actually pretty good. The dialogue can be stronger here and there but it's nothing so bad that it takes me completely out of it and the ideas are always there. I like the characters behind the new team of Nightwings, particularly Sap and Hutch. It feels like Sap is doomed to fall morally or die tragically and they are setting up Hutch for a role fighting next to Dick after Ric returns to being Dick/Nightwing but i could be wrong.


What got me riled up, first was the fact that the idea to do all this didn't come from a Nightwing writer. He had his own plans. Then Batman writer and DC editorial decided to impose their idea and forced him to cancel his story. The Nightwing writer left, then DC had to scramble for a replacement. Both replacement writers are aware that this is an unwanted project as they said on twitter and interview. 

The second was the fact that amnesia story where the character decided to be anything other than their original has been done before in Batman and Red Hood, and their story is more interesting, involving some other well-known characters like James Gordon and Ra's al Ghul, and with Batman it's also used as a vehicle to portray interesting ideas such as street kids Robin and civilian Joker.

The third and what made me yell was when I realized that we have a Nightwing comic starring a Dick Grayson who refused to be Dick Grayson or Nightwing, but team up with a bunch of Nightwing fill-ins to do what Nightwing usually do. Fight crimes in Nightwing city. 

Like what's the point of making him amnesia if he's just gonna do the same thing Nightwing do anyway? Just write Nightwing!

So even if the story is enjoyable on its own, I still reject it for the first reason I mentioned. At least.

----------


## OWL45

> The story has no heart and isnt Dick Grayson. Its going nowhere and its lackluster.  Generally Ive seen that most who dont mind the story werent invested in Dick as a character and his role in the DC Universe beforehand. I dont need to repeat Badou cause thats pretty much it. If you aint Justice League or have a big writer in your corner DC dont give a damn about you these days. I personally feel it lost what Rebirth was originally trying to do with the character and address issues with him instead of add on to em


To be fair they tried to do something different with the character with GRAYSON and fans acted a fool. He was starring in more books at that time then any other period in the characters history aside from becoming Batman. I think DC seemed to stop caring to a point after that. They gave people Bludhaven and his blue uniform back then washed their hands with him. Nostalgia has killed this character and has hampered him from growing. To a degree I blame DC but I also blame a certain segment of the fan base. I agree with a post earlier about the upcoming story line with the COO and Talon being a step in the right direction. The Leviathan idea would be badass but again DC would be hesitant I think to do something so radical with the character given how things have gone previously with any type of change.

----------


## Godlike13

The idea that fans killed Grayson needs to die. It’s not true. Just look at Ric.

----------


## Arsenal

> Said this in the Superman thread, but ...
> 
> Dick is Leviathan and "Ric" is just DC running out the bad storyline to be the perfect red herring for the big twist in the Bendis story.


Ive been saying that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The idea that fans killed Grayson needs to die. Its not true. Just look at Ric.


Yeah the bitterness needs to end it had a good run but spy agencys are undeveloped  in dc sand alienated him from major dc projects.  Then again here we are with him out of commission for HIC

----------


## K. Jones

> I saw that and I think there may be some interesting credence to this.
> 
> Take for example the conversations with the heroes in the Leviathan promo.
> 
> Batman: Your war on crime accomplishes nothing. *I've tried it your way.*
> 
> He addresses Batgirl as Barbara and she is the first person he tries to convince to join his cause.
> 
> Plastic Man: You and I were born into a broken world and *it almost killed us*. We both figured out we needed to *start over*.
> ...


The current incarnation of Plastic Man was "reborn" into Plas during Forever Evil, yeah? In Gotham? When OWLMAN knocked him into waste chemicals? If so both Dick and Plastic Man died and were reborn during Forever Evil as a direct result of the specific meddling of Owlman. Not that I'm entirely sure how much A. New 52 and B. Plastic Man backstory persists after Rebirth. Like, truly nobody cared that Plastic Man was casually "born" during that event.

Continuing on that though ... obviously Plastic Man was in some kind of lockdown during METAL and came out of it, came out of an egg, basically, was sort of born into a broken world in the sence that he came back and the Dark Multiverse had legit broken the world. Nightwing had a weird Nth Metal dagger third eye spiritual multiversal awakening thing going on during Metal.

----------


## OWL45

> Yeah the bitterness needs to end it had a good run but spy agencys are undeveloped  in dc sand alienated him from major dc projects.  Then again here we are with him out of commission for HIC


The current DC major project Leviathan is centered around the spy agencies and the fact they were underdeveloped. He would have been a central figure in that story. I just think fans need to be open minded and not so rooted in nostalgia with some characters. With that said I think the character is at his lowest point in decades. I hope it gets better soon.

----------


## twiztor

i think the thing that bothers me the most is that this was a Tom King idea...correct?  Ric/Dick Grayson/Nightwing hasn't appeared in a single issue of Batman since the headshot, has he? i guess i just can't comprehend why you would suggest this be done to a character within your wheelhouse and then just ignore it?

----------


## Godlike13

> The current DC major project Leviathan is centered around the spy agencies and the fact they were underdeveloped. He would have been a central figure in that story. I just think fans need to be open minded and not so rooted in nostalgia with some characters. With that said I think the character is at his lowest point in decades. I hope it gets better soon.


Ric is probably going to out last Grayson, despite selling like shit and having terrible word of mouth. So again I say, this idea that fans ended Grayson needs to die. DC could give a shit about Dick’s fans or readers.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The current DC major project Leviathan is centered around the spy agencies and the fact they were underdeveloped. He would have been a central figure in that story. I just think fans need to be open minded and not so rooted in nostalgia with some characters. With that said I think the character is at his lowest point in decades. I hope it gets better soon.


This is like 4 years later

They should have tied spyral checkmate and Amanda Waller somehow to ice it relevancy

----------


## Restingvoice

> i think the thing that bothers me the most is that this was a Tom King idea...correct?  Ric/Dick Grayson/Nightwing hasn't appeared in a single issue of Batman since the headshot, has he? i guess i just can't comprehend why you would suggest this be done to a character within your wheelhouse and then just ignore it?


One panel in the most recent issue. 

Objectively, it's because they know Nightwing has his own series so anything happened to Nightwing can be handled in Nightwing so Batman series can just focus on what happens to Batman. The Nightwing series and all the other Batfam series counts as part of Batman wheelhouse

----------


## Godlike13

King doesn’t care for Ric. His idea was to shoot Dick in the head, that’s it, the stuff that came after, Ric and ripping off We Are Robin, is on the Nightwing team and King doesn’t want to touch it anymore then anyone else.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Ric situation now is just the second coming of that elseworld where Bruce thinks Superman killed his parents and went crazy, slapped Dick , erased his memories and threw him away on the streets with no thought about him ever. It’s incredibly fucked up because it is really happening in both mainverse and real world  now and Bruce doesn’t even have the excuse of being a villain.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I saw that and I think there may be some interesting credence to this.
> 
> Take for example the conversations with the heroes in the Leviathan promo.
> 
> Batman: Your war on crime accomplishes nothing. *I've tried it your way.*
> 
> He addresses Batgirl as Barbara and she is the first person he tries to convince to join his cause.
> 
> Plastic Man: You and I were born into a broken world and *it almost killed us*. We both figured out we needed to *start over*.
> ...


The word LEGACY is also highlighted on the Manhunter page. Dick being the first ever legacy character. 

I don't think it will happen, but this could all be foreshadowing for Dick. If it were though, would this represent a true heel turn for Dick?

----------


## K. Jones

> The word LEGACY is also highlighted on the Manhunter page. Dick being the first ever legacy character. 
> 
> I don't think it will happen, but this could all be foreshadowing for Dick. If it were though, would this represent a true heel turn for Dick?


Yeah, the first "real one". Renegade Nightwing was a thing and was a brief storyline. And the cop-out / interesting story bit where it could be a result of the gunshot to the head and there'd be a split, and the whole Ric thing going on, makes for a good exit strategy for "fixing" Dick afterward. But as another sort of chapter in the recent history of Dick Grayson I'd kind of like if he ends up being Leviathan to live with it for a while, sort of a strange "Season 4" of the Grayson 1 / Grayson 2 / Seeley Nightwing / running stories with spies and such.

----------


## K. Jones

> Ric is probably going to out last Grayson, despite selling like shit and having terrible word of mouth. So again I say, this idea that fans ended Grayson needs to die. DC could give a shit about Dicks fans or readers.


It's all just because the book is titled "Nightwing", yeah? If Grayson had been branded as "Nightwing" sales would've been higher. And is basically just what I want the book to be. "NIGHTWING" ... secret agent.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Yeah, the first "real one". Renegade Nightwing was a thing and was a brief storyline. And the cop-out / interesting story bit where it could be a result of the gunshot to the head and there'd be a split, and the whole Ric thing going on, makes for a good exit strategy for "fixing" Dick afterward. But as another sort of chapter in the recent history of Dick Grayson I'd kind of like if he ends up being Leviathan to live with it for a while, sort of a strange "Season 4" of the Grayson 1 / Grayson 2 / Seeley Nightwing / running stories with spies and such.


And while I don't think it will actually happen, it would actually provide a bit of context just how awful Ric has been. "Hey, one of our biggest names, Bendis, wants to use Dick as a villain/supershady spy mastermind. We need to do something so absolutely awful that the people who would normally not want to see this will at least be happy Ric is over."

----------


## Ascended

> It's all just because the book is titled "Nightwing", yeah? If Grayson had been branded as "Nightwing" sales would've been higher. And is basically just what I want the book to be. "NIGHTWING" ... secret agent.


Hard to say whether the title name played a part in Grayson's sales without access to DC's market data but I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Brand recognition matters, especially in this industry (it seems infinitely more important for comics than most businesses) and "Grayson" doesn't have the brand value that "Nightwing" does. So yeah, I figure if they had done Grayson and all the Spyral stuff, but kept Dick in costume and using the Nightwing name, sales would've been higher. And Grayson still saw a decent increase in sales for a big chunk of its run, as I recall. To this day I suspect that "Nightwing: Agent of Spyral" might've been Dick's big break.....but the lack of recognizable visual markers made the community (if not DC itself) see it as a temporary gimmick rather than a viable, sustainable status quo.

Granted, it wouldn't have made a ton of sense for Dick to retain the costume and name while he's "undercover" as a spy.......but it didn't make a ton of sense for Spyral to recruit a dedicated and experienced hero who's also one of the world's most eligible (and handsome) bachelors either.




> And while I don't think it will actually happen, it would actually provide a bit of context just how awful Ric has been. "Hey, one of our biggest names, Bendis, wants to use Dick as a villain/supershady spy mastermind. We need to do something so absolutely awful that the people who would normally not want to see this will at least be happy Ric is over."


Retroactive context maybe. Even if this turns out to be true and Dick is behind the Leviathan event (which I very much doubt) I cannot believe DC had the foresight to play "Ric" off as a narrative device to make fans more open to the idea of Leviathan-Wing.

----------


## Godlike13

> It's all just because the book is titled "Nightwing", yeah? If Grayson had been branded as "Nightwing" sales would've been higher. And is basically just what I want the book to be. "NIGHTWING" ... secret agent.


I don’t know. Even with the “Nightwing” title their current Ric direction failed to increase readership and has flatline sales lower than Grayson at its end. Yet Ric shows no signs of ending anytime soon. So really it seems it all just comes down to the whims of his current management. 

Personally I think it had to do with them wanting King and Janin on Batman, and their line wide Rebirth initiative. Not so much the “fans”.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Hard to say whether the title name played a part in Grayson's sales without access to DC's market data but I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Brand recognition matters, especially in this industry (it seems infinitely more important for comics than most businesses) and "Grayson" doesn't have the brand value that "Nightwing" does. So yeah, I figure if they had done Grayson and all the Spyral stuff, but kept Dick in costume and using the Nightwing name, sales would've been higher. And Grayson still saw a decent increase in sales for a big chunk of its run, as I recall. To this day I suspect that "Nightwing: Agent of Spyral" might've been Dick's big break.....but the lack of recognizable visual markers made the community (if not DC itself) see it as a temporary gimmick rather than a viable, sustainable status quo.
> 
> Granted, it wouldn't have made a ton of sense for Dick to retain the costume and name while he's "undercover" as a spy.......but it didn't make a ton of sense for Spyral to recruit a dedicated and experienced hero who's also one of the world's most eligible (and handsome) bachelors either.


I think there was definitely wiggle room when it comes to incorporating recognizable Nightwing elements into Grayson while still providing a clear visual break from his run as a vigilante. T-Shirt/tactical type stuff they did but with the blue bird symbol could have done it; its recognizably Nightwing branding while still looking totally different from the n52 suit. They really did not succeed with the character design there. But I'm sure we've had this conversation several times before.






> Retroactive context maybe. Even if this turns out to be true and Dick is behind the Leviathan event (which I very much doubt) I cannot believe DC had the foresight to play "Ric" off as a narrative device to make fans more open to the idea of Leviathan-Wing.


Yeah I'd be shocked if Dick is behind the Leviathan threat. And even if he is, it still doesn't excuse the Ric bullshit. At this point even the intent I described in my last post would be better than them thinking its good.

----------


## jules

Nightwing: Agent of Spyral would have worked nicely as a post-Rebirth Spyral phase, where having ousted enough bad guys, Dick stuck around and helped run a kinder, more ethical Spyral team.

At the very least I wish hed been able to keep the Hypnos gadget, suitably debugged. It was a nifty idea, and could have been an ongoing unique selling point to distinguish Dick from the other Robins, as well as making it comparatively easy for him to switch identity between superhero and spy depending on the needs of the plot of the moment.

----------


## Ascended

> I think there was definitely wiggle room when it comes to incorporating recognizable Nightwing elements into Grayson while still providing a clear visual break from his run as a vigilante. T-Shirt/tactical type stuff they did but with the blue bird symbol could have done it; its recognizably Nightwing branding while still looking totally different from the n52 suit. They really did not succeed with the character design there. But I'm sure we've had this conversation several times before.


I think a "Nightwing" flavored spy outfit, as well as the title remaining the same, would've made a difference, definitely. Maybe not a huge one, or maybe so, we'll never know. And yeah I'm pretty sure we've discussed this several times, but you and I seem to really enjoying talking about Spyral and that whole era of Nightwing.  :Big Grin: 




> At the very least I wish he’d been able to keep the Hypnos gadget, suitably debugged. It was a nifty idea, and could have been an ongoing unique selling point to distinguish Dick from the other Robins, as well as making it comparatively easy for him to switch identity between superhero and spy depending on the needs of the plot of the moment.


They should've put that tech into Dick's mask.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

He should have taken over the the God Garden

----------


## byrd156

> He should have taken over the the God Garden


Has that even showed up since Grayson?

----------


## CPSparkles

To lighten the mood







https://twitter.com/OtterTheAuthor

----------


## Restingvoice

> He should have taken over the the God Garden


Hmmmh.... looking down on the world from up high is not his thing...

...He can use it to break the record on base jumping...

----------


## Restingvoice

NIGHTWING #62 main cover by Bruno Redondo

tumblr_prpkqxUs8K1riu867o1_1280.jpg

There's a variant by Greg Capullo but it's just the Talon portrait

----------


## Rac7d*

> NIGHTWING #62 main cover by Bruno Redondo
> 
> tumblr_prpkqxUs8K1riu867o1_1280.jpg
> 
> There's a variant by Greg Capullo but it's just the Talon portrait


just do it talon kill bea, tell him you can never be normal and he give up on being rick
you cant fight fate

----------


## byrd156

> just do it talon kill bea, tell him you can never be normal and he give up on being rick
> you cant fight fate


Super generic and uninspired sounds like Nightwing for the past decade. But whatever moves us on from Ric I'm game.

----------


## OWL45

> just do it talon kill bea, tell him you can never be normal and he give up on being rick
> you cant fight fate


I wouldnt be mad at this. Would generate a better story than what we are dealing with.

----------


## Godlike13

Characters like Bea and the Nightwings are the kind of characters DC should go scorched earth on, but they are never going to do it as the current people behind the book are going to protect their poop. Talon is going to be the Nightwings’ defining victory, as the people behind the book continue to play dumb when it comes to this direction of theirs.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Super generic and uninspired sounds like Nightwing for the past decade. But whatever moves us on from Ric I'm game.


I am desperate at this point its a basic end to a less then basic chapter

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Godlike13

Funny and accurate enough.

----------


## Jackalope89

Except... Jason wasn't "angsty" through most of his run.

----------


## Godlike13

Meh, that was the best part.

----------


## Zaresh

> 


Have to admit, it's a fun video. But it's not all that accurate. Jason didn't have all that angst until he came back (and only for a while. He's depressive, not angsty, really. He has anger issues, though), and was anti-heroic here and there before FP. And it's kind of unfair calling him angsty, but not doing so to Damian. And Tim wasn't that brainy until years passed, as far as I've seem so far (still reading throughout its stuff).

But, it was a nice fun short summary. It's cool.

----------


## dietrich

> 


This is pretty funny. Noah Sterling. That name sounds familiar.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm back! Nice video. Heard some good news a while ago too  :Cool:  Nice day ahead  :Wink:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Except... Jason wasn't "angsty" through most of his run.


He is in all his reimagining but original Jason wasasweet kid

----------


## Claude

Just a PSA - Bendis teased a little while ago that Nightwing was going to be in Action Comics #1011. 

He's not.

Good issue, but if that's why you were going to buy it - you can save a little cash!

----------


## byrd156

> He is in all his reimagining but original Jason wasasweet kid


But retcons overturn that stuff. It doesn't matter if you like a retcon or not, that becomes the new canon.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Just a PSA - Bendis teased a little while ago that Nightwing was going to be in Action Comics #1011. 
> 
> He's not.
> 
> Good issue, but if that's why you were going to buy it - you can save a little cash!


just thumbed through it. Its a bit of a bummer seeing Tiger and Huntress, but no Dick Grayson.

----------


## dropkickjake

Any chanve the rumored premature departure of King would affect Ric? Maybe it could speed up the departure of the shitstorm?

----------


## Pohzee

> just thumbed through it. Its a bit of a bummer seeing Tiger and Huntress, but no Dick Grayson.


Thank you editorial. Not all stories should have to happen at the same time.

----------


## Godlike13

> Any chanve the rumored premature departure of King would affect Ric? Maybe it could speed up the departure of the shitstorm?


It will probably prolong it. As righting the Batman ship will be first priority. My guess we are going to have to wait for them to figure out what they are going to do with Batman, before they even start figuring out what they want to do with Ric. So Ric could very well go into 2020, continuing to just buy time and feed their in house guys.

----------


## Zaresh

> But retcons overturn that stuff. It doesn't matter if you like a retcon or not, that becomes the new canon.


All points to him being basically how he was in his run as Robin in Post Crisis again. Every little flashback we have seen.

----------


## Badou

Maybe DC is planning some Batman line relaunch later in the year and they wanted to move King off the main Batman book to start fresh with a new #1 and new creative team. So if they relaunch a bunch of Bat books then maybe the Ric garbage will end sooner. I can't imagine that DC would continue the Ric stuff into a newly relaunched book, but maybe they would given how they have clung to this awful editorially mandated story for so long already. Tough to say as I don't really trust them in making good decisions anymore.

----------


## Aahz

> Maybe DC is planning some Batman line relaunch later in the year and they wanted to move King off the main Batman book to start fresh with a new #1 and new creative team. So if they relaunch a bunch of Bat books then maybe the Ric garbage will end sooner. I can't imagine that DC would continue the Ric stuff into a newly relaunched book, but maybe they would given how they have clung to this awful editorially mandated story for so long already. Tough to say as I don't really trust them in making good decisions anymore.


I don't think that they will relaunch anything before the year of the villain stories have concluded, which probably take around 6 issues. So they will probably not  relaunch anything bore the end of the year.

----------


## byrd156

> All points to him being basically how he was in his run as Robin in Post Crisis again. Every little flashback we have seen.


DC and people perceive Jason as the bad Robin, that's just how it is and I don't see that changing.

----------


## Badou

> I don't think that they will relaunch anything before the year of the villain stories have concluded, which probably take around 6 issues. So they will probably not  relaunch anything bore the end of the year.


Would the end of the Year of the Villains event end around when King gets to his 85th issue?

----------


## Aahz

> Would the end of the Year of the Villains event end around when King gets to his 85th issue?


If I did the math correctly Batman #85 will be out in december, that would fit, but that would anyway mean a relaunch in the beginning of the next year at the earliest.

Unless of course they strech the story lines out to a complete year, so to roughly 12 issues.

----------


## Zaresh

> DC and people perceive Jason as the bad Robin, that's just how it is and I don't see that changing.


So what's it? People perception at the time, when writers liked to victim blame the character? or what it's retconed in the comics? What's that counts? I know you like Jason as a villain alone, you made your point in our thread a long time ago; so I know that opinion weighs your reasoning (I like him anti-heroic, and it weighs mine, surely). But the thing is, as far as common sense goes, the things that should count should be what the fans of a character and the whole story of a character are depicting. Same as it should happen with Dick, or Tim, or Damian. Continuity, as you said, can be rewritten at any point in time by whoever is at the moment in any book—it can go both forward or backward, adding new traits or bringing back old ones. And the opinion of the readers, or the general audience is incomplete, and the books of these characters, books that should make their core and bone, aren't aimed for general audience, but for fans—the fans of each character, true fans, have a way more wider perspective of said character, even if biased because their likes.

Let's see the matter this way: imagine that this is Dick we're talking about (because this is Dick thread after all and I definitely want to go back on topic: sorry for my brief detour). If how most people perceive a character counts, then Dick is this always smiling, silly, character who throws really bad puns and has childish moments here and there but always good to the point of sanctity that eats cereal—and that's definitely very wrong and definitely false. What about continuity and retcons? Let's talk about how Dick and Bruce broke up when Dick stopped being his sidekick: that one has been on an off continuity a lot and I honestly don't know how they parted ways in the current continuity. Generally speaking most people remember the first retcon, with them breaking in bad terms (in bad terms is how they part ways in the Titans show, for example); but I think the current one is that they parted ways relatively in friendly terms, even if they were definitely not all good and shine and sparkles.

Jason as a kid? He has been pretty sweet, if a little of a punk, most of the time. And most of the fans see his time as Robin like that. And that's what it should count and, at least in our case, it's how his book is being written.

----------


## Godlike13

How a character is generally perceived, influences how a character is often generally portrayed. The idea and perception of Jason as the bad Robin is one his identity of Red Hood perpetuates.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick's demeanor as Robin has definitely been rewritten, so Jason's has been retconned as well. Maybe he wasn't originally written that way, but since it has been referenced that way in canon it may now be considered accurate.

----------


## Zaresh

> Dick's demeanor as Robin has definitely been rewritten, so Jason's has been retconned as well. Maybe he wasn't originally written that way, but since it has been referenced that way in canon it may now be considered accurate.


Again, the current canon pictures him as I described him. If it counted the rewrite they did in the 90's, this counts too.

I cannot argue about how people (general audience) perceive it, or that it influences to certain degree his portrayal. I'm aware of it (unfortunately, I know that in the end it only counts what people remembers a character for. That's why I'm generally so against villanize heroes). But it's not what defines a character. It shouldn't be. When you have a writer to kneel to that stuff, you both lose the actual fans (who will feel betrayed and leave) and make a mess with consistency. The writer is who defines the character, for good or bad, and that shouldn't be determined entirely by what people perceive (but sure, some influence is to be expected: I can guess that they would want to appeal to the casual readers as well, besides the fans and readers).

If both issues (general audience perception and cherrypicked past canon) count more than a general view of the history, current continuity and fans perception, then, there's definitely something wrong (as I view the matter).

(Everytime someone says "Jason was the bad Robin", a kitten dies. Think of the kittens)

----------


## Rac7d*

> But retcons overturn that stuff. It doesn't matter if you like a retcon or not, that becomes the new canon.


his bad attitude is the retcon
that is how he is protrayed  for the last 20 years the robin with the bad attitude
the raphael  its set in stone

Just like how Tim is the brainy one the one with the stick the donatello

----------


## yohyoi

I'm optimistic with Nightwing again. The faster we move away from the present Batman storyline, the faster Ric ends. Got banned for King, but still won at the end  :Big Grin:  Here's to better writers.

----------


## Badou

Management is still the same so I don't have much hope things will get any better even if Ric ends. There is just no one at DC right now that has any interest in supporting the character, giving the character any sort of push, or trying some interesting stories with him. A Jason has a Lobdell that will always support the character and even a Johns now for a bit who wants to give him a prominent role in "big" stories like The Three Jokers. Damian has Tomasi and even Priest who probably wants to write him more, Tim has Bendis now and even a Tynion before who DC values a lot and he supported the character all he could for a while. Dick had Seeley but he got completely burnt out and even he didn't get to write the stories he wanted. I just don't have any confidence that anything has changed for Dick when the management that wants to undermine him is still there.

----------


## byrd156

> his bad attitude is the retcon
> that is how he is protrayed  for the last 20 years the robin with the bad attitude
> the raphael  its set in stone
> 
> Just like how Tim is the brainy one the one with the stick the donatello


Yeah I know, that's just how it is now. DC is dumbing everyone down to a style/suit, ability, and attitude. Not just the Robins but they are the prime example. There's no room for character development.

Jason is the bad one.
Tim is smart.
Dick is generic leader.
Damian is the only one still kinda allowed to be unique for the moment.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah I know, that's just how it is now. DC is dumbing everyone down to a style/suit, ability, and attitude. Not just the Robins but they are the prime example. There's no room for character development.
> 
> Jason is the bad one.
> Tim is smart.
> Dick is generic leader.
> Damian is the only one still kinda allowed to be unique for the moment.


Damian is the angry one.
Dick being the generic leader is too kind. He's the sexy one.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah I know, that's just how it is now. DC is dumbing everyone down to a style/suit, ability, and attitude. Not just the Robins but they are the prime example. There's no room for character development.
> 
> Jason is the bad one.
> Tim is smart.
> Dick is generic leader.
> Damian is the only one still kinda allowed to be unique for the moment.


This is usually why I'm not a big fan of when they have all the Robins together. They fall into archetypes and the writing is never all that good.

----------


## Jackalope89

> This is usually why I'm not a big fan of when they have all the Robins together. They fall into archetypes and the writing is never all that good.


Basically, they work best in duos at most. Like the RHatO Rebirth Annual 1, where Dick and Jason interacted. Current Ric run aside (shudders), Lobdell did a good job with the two of them.

----------


## Frontier

> Basically, they work best in duos at most. Like the RHatO Rebirth Annual 1, where Dick and Jason interacted. Current Ric run aside (shudders), Lobdell did a good job with the two of them.


I wouldn't disagree with this.

----------


## Konja7

> Yeah I know, that's just how it is now. DC is dumbing everyone down to a style/suit, ability, and attitude. Not just the Robins but they are the prime example. There's no room for character development.
> 
> Jason is the bad one.
> Tim is smart.
> Dick is generic leader.
> Damian is the only one still kinda allowed to be unique for the moment.


Diferentiating characters based on their ability or quality is what usually happens in fiction when you have a group of characters. This will happen, since Robins has enough members to be a group. 

Even if DC doesn't qualify the Robins this way, many fans will still do this.

Dick has bad luck because being the leader (or the heart) does not help much when the character maintains a solo. Although it would still help if Dick could be the leader in an important group. 


PS: Although Tim being the smart doesn't help him much either, because Barbara cover that place now.

----------


## Godlike13

Don’t get your hopes up for Dick in Leviathan, 
https://mobile.twitter.com/BRIANMBEN...ess-grayson%2F

----------


## yohyoi

> Don’t get your hopes up for Dick in Leviathan, 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/BRIANMBEN...ess-grayson%2F


Bendis gave a logical reason. No prob.

----------


## Schumiac

> Basically, they work best in duos at most. Like the RHatO Rebirth Annual 1, where Dick and Jason interacted. Current Ric run aside (shudders), Lobdell did a good job with the two of them.


Except for Alfred being too lazy to give Jason his own room and putting Jason in Dick's room (I guess he for some reason thought Dick would never ever come back home and need his room), and then Jason and Dick fighting over it... It was cringeworthy to me on so many levels. Like, what did they do with Dick's stuff, threw it out?  Just because Dick dared to grow up and go solo? If you cease being Robin you are no longer allowed to call the mansion "home" and are actually denied a room and can't sleep there? And if you do decide to stay over for the night no one will even bother to inform you that your room is no longer your room? Also how oblivious is Dick to his surroundings that he can't notice his room has changed and someone else is living there (because surely Jason would have made the room "his" somehow, it is not like it is a hotel room). The guy is supposed  to be one of the world's best detectives for God's sake and can't even notice changes to his own room?


Seriously, they have a zillion rooms in that mansion but giving Jason his very own room was unfathomable because Alfred didn't want to occasionally clean an extra room on the side (it is not like Dick's room would need as much cleaning given he wasn't staying there regularly)? REALLY, Lobdell?

----------


## Zaresh

> Except for Alfred being too lazy to give Jason his own room and putting Jason in Dick's room (I guess he for some reason thought Dick would never ever come back home and need his room), and then Jason and Dick fighting over it... It was cringeworthy to me on so many levels. Like, what did they do with Dick's stuff, threw it out?  Just because Dick dared to grow up and go solo? If you cease being Robin you are no longer allowed to call the mansion "home" and are actually denied a room and can't sleep there? And if you do decide to stay over for the night no one will even bother to inform you that your room is no longer your room? Also how oblivious is Dick to his surroundings that he can't notice his room has changed and someone else is living there (because surely Jason would have made the room "his" somehow, it is not like it is a hotel room). The guy is supposed  to be one of the world's best detectives for God's sake and can't even notice changes to his own room?
> 
> 
> Seriously, they have a zillion rooms in that mansion but giving Jason his very own room was unfathomable because Alfred didn't want to occasionally clean an extra room on the side (it is not like Dick's room would need as much cleaning given he wasn't staying there regularly)? REALLY, Lobdell?


If Lobdell is following the original post-crisis story, iirc, Jason went to the manor the day after he first met Bruce in the Alley (he was put in Ma Gunn's school the first day, things happened, and then Bruce brought him following after). And Bruce met Jason the same day he "fired" Dick (I think I remember it being the very same day, in the same issue).

Edit: nevermind. I just realized that Jason was already Robin in that flashback. So Alfred was definitely a bit too lazy. I wouldn't give it too much thought in any case: the story is there to point other stuff, like Jason being stubborn and Dick being at odds with Bruce.

----------


## Ascended

> Bendis gave a logical reason. No prob.


Yeah, can't argue with that. I don't like it, and DC could say that this Event wasn't happening at the same time as "Ric" but I can't fault Bendis for actually following the continuity. 

It sucks, but I get it. It's cool.

Now, the real "stupid fan conspiracy theory/question" is this. Bendis intended on using Dick in Leviathan, which means he's followed the character at least as far as "Grayson" since he knows Dick has ties to the spy world. One would assume he's also aware of the current Ric situation, and had originally planned originally to use Nightwing (reportedly in costume and all) anyway. And the plan changed. So does this mean DC has plans for Dick after the "Ric" thing has ended, and those plans don't include a return to a recognizable Nightwing?

----------


## Badou

> Dont get your hopes up for Dick in Leviathan, 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/BRIANMBEN...ess-grayson%2F


Sounds like editorial stepping in again to isolate Dick's character. I feel like Bendis probably wasn't paying attention to what is going on in Nightwing's book so he didn't know what was the character's situation. I really have such low expectations for what is next for Dick even after the Ric garbage ends. He is in such a bad place right now.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I have resigned myself that Young Justice & Titans media is the only place Dick will have agency and a clear path while the Comics will keep him isolated in Bludhaven so he can be used in a crossover for Batman then tossed to the side where no one in the DCU will care because they no longer remember him or are too busy to care

----------


## OWL45

> I have resigned myself that Young Justice & Titans media is the only place Dick will have agency and a clear path while the Comics will keep him isolated in Bludhaven so he can be used in a crossover for Batman then tossed to the side where no one in the DCU will care because they no longer remember him or are too busy to care


Tom King sacrificed Dick to further his own Batman story and has gotten a pass. What gets me is that DC seems to be jumping ship on his run but what he has done to Nightwing will take a lot to correct. The character has literally been set back and it doesnt look like this will be an easy fix. That fact that they let him do this in the first place speaks volumes about the lack of value they see in the character.

----------


## byrd156

> Sounds like editorial stepping in again to isolate Dick's character. I feel like Bendis probably wasn't paying attention to what is going on in Nightwing's book so he didn't know what was the character's situation. I really have such low expectations for what is next for Dick even after the Ric garbage ends. He is in such a bad place right now.


Or maybe he was hoping to slip that in and no one in editorial would notice. Wouldn't be surprised if he pulled it off.

----------


## WonderNight

> I have resigned myself that Young Justice & Titans media is the only place Dick will have agency and a clear path while the Comics will keep him isolated in Bludhaven so he can be used in a crossover for Batman then tossed to the side where no one in the DCU will care because they no longer remember him or are too busy to care


man dick is irrelevant now. I mean how many events does dc have going on and dick (a character with a 60+ issue run in today's market) isn't in ONE. Come on.

----------


## nightbird

> Except for Alfred being too lazy to give Jason his own room and putting Jason in Dick's room (I guess he for some reason thought Dick would never ever come back home and need his room), and then Jason and Dick fighting over it... It was cringeworthy to me on so many levels. Like, what did they do with Dick's stuff, threw it out?  Just because Dick dared to grow up and go solo? If you cease being Robin you are no longer allowed to call the mansion "home" and are actually denied a room and can't sleep there? And if you do decide to stay over for the night no one will even bother to inform you that your room is no longer your room? Also how oblivious is Dick to his surroundings that he can't notice his room has changed and someone else is living there (because surely Jason would have made the room "his" somehow, it is not like it is a hotel room). The guy is supposed  to be one of the world's best detectives for God's sake and can't even notice changes to his own room?
> 
> 
> Seriously, they have a zillion rooms in that mansion but giving Jason his very own room was unfathomable because Alfred didn't want to occasionally clean an extra room on the side (it is not like Dick's room would need as much cleaning given he wasn't staying there regularly)? REALLY, Lobdell?


Let’s say that 90% of comic book writers actually bad writers. What characters represent and the world they live on is entertaining and addictive, but there is a reason, why comics lost their popularity these days. Story structure sucks, characters not consistent, logically a lot of moments make no sense, most of the times there is no emotional punch to what’s happening. 
What happened to Dick just quintessential moment why comics will never benefit from how popular movies based on them became nowadays.

----------


## Godlike13

> Tom King sacrificed Dick to further his own Batman story and has gotten a pass. What gets me is that DC seems to be jumping ship on his run but what he has done to Nightwing will take a lot to correct. The character has literally been set back and it doesn’t look like this will be an easy fix. That fact that they let him do this in the first place speaks volumes about the lack of value they see in the character.


As does how they have let the Nightwing team produce such lazy trash, with no end in sight. Not even DC’s lowest performing characters see this kind of unopposed poor editorial and creative effort and performance. They have allowed these editors and their go to creators to take their top selling Bat family member and turn him into their lowest selling Bat family member. Dick is so screwed.

----------


## WonderNight

> As does the how they have let the Nightwing team produce such lazy trash, with no end in sight. Not even DC’s lowest performing characters see this kind of unopposed poor editorial and creative effort and performance. They have allowed these editors and their go to creators to take their top selling Bat family member and turn him into their lowest selling Bat family member. Dick is so screwed.


 move nightwing to another franchise or ip or something. The bat family is bloated and the office dont what him.

It's like sports if the team doesn't want them trade him.

----------


## Godlike13

At this point I agree. If no one in the current Bat office can find the time, or be bothered to put forth a real effort to try and produce a book with him of any real quality. Then put him in an office and under people who maybe can. Cause you can’t tell me the current people on his book are actually trying, and if they are well then DC has a different problem. But at the same time the Bat office probably don’t want to give Nightwing up. It’s still consistent work, and seemingly consistent work with no standards or accountability. Why would they want to give that up.

----------


## WonderNight

> At this point I agree. If no one in the current Bat office can find the time, or be bothered to put forth a real effort to try and produce a book with him of any real quality. Then put him in an office and under people who maybe can. Cause you can’t tell me the current people on his book are actually trying, and if they are well then DC has a different problem. But at the same time the Bat office probably don’t want to give Nightwing up. It’s still consistent work, and seemingly consistent work with no standards or accountability. Why would they want to give that up.


Why would they give it up...dont know. Need ot give it up...hell yea! Plus nightwing leaving would on up more room with the other bat characters! Maybe kate could get a new book to go with her tv show or a new tim or daiman book etc. But nightwing would be free of the bat office that dont want him, the bloated family  that leaves him with no niche (right now nightwing is just male batgirl or bat vigilante number 12) and stops him from being isolated from the rest of the dcu.

----------


## Schumiac

> I wouldn't give it too much thought in any case: the story is there to point other stuff, like Jason being stubborn and Dick being at odds with Bruce.



That is the problem though, isn't it, Lobdell didn't give it any real thought or care. He wanted a "funny" store where Jason and Dick had a rough start from the beginning and have a bit of a rivary/misunderstanding thing going on and went with the first thing that popped in his mind without a care as to what it means overall, how it potrays Alfred and what it means for Dick and Jason's "place" in Bat-family... It is something very basic but fundamental that these boys have their own place - and a room is very much a symbol of it. They are not interchangable as "Robins". They were not just mere guests in Bruce's life staying in the "guest room" which can be used by anyone currently a "guest". It undermines their relationship and importance as a person. It is very much a big deal... And a writer should be able to see that and take care not to make such mistakes, it is their JOB as professionals to give their stories and characterization some deep thought. This was plain lazy. 

I don't know if this has to do with Lobdell simply hating writing for Dick and so tuning it in where Dick is concerned and just going with the first lazy idea that comes into his mind. He has more care with Jason and does a better job when he is writing just for him, but then he is Jason's permanent writer, it is his project. It would also explan why Ric is such a dismal story. Lobdell got handed a job to write for a character he could care less about at the last minute who he knows he won't have to write long term, just temporary fill in till DC finds some perm writer for it, and sure wasn't going to waste any time to delve deep into the character to really make a story about who he is at the core (as he was promising in the interviews). Instead he went for the basic thing he knew about the character "he is a circus boy!" and wrote him as a drifter with no direction and home or real job who just exists because he sees, I guess, that as a natural extension of being a "gypsy" and coming from the "circus" with muscle memory and Dick's tendency to be heroic thrown in, because this is comics and characters are expected to go into action and do something heroic from time to time even if reluctantly and all the time complaining about it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damian is the angry one.
> Dick being the generic leader is too kind. He's the sexy one.


Is damian the angry one or is that Jason,

due to him being 10-13 he tends to be just bratty and they wash over all his development over the years

so yes its best when they are not all togther  but becasue of that Tim and Dick interaction have been minimal over the 10 years 
which why Tim and Jason have been so buddy buddy

----------


## Schumiac

> Lets say that 90% of comic book writers actually bad writers. What characters represent and the world they live on is entertaining and addictive, but there is a reason, why comics lost their popularity these days. Story structure sucks, characters not consistent, logically a lot of moments make no sense, most of the times there is no emotional punch to whats happening. 
> What happened to Dick just quintessential moment why comics will never benefit from how popular movies based on them became nowadays.


I don't know if they are really bad writers but there is certainly a problem... You have fanfic writers who are not professionals doing much better jobs than these so-called professionals in terms of characterizaton and continuity and logic after all. I don't know if it is because they have too many projects they need to deal with so are able to do only a half-assed job at most, or after a while they loose their zeal for writing (because editorial keeps shutting down their more creative ideas, because of workload, because after so many years in an industry you find yourself exhausted and bored etc etc) and just going through the actions of it for the paycheck...

----------


## Arsenal

Lobdell cant hate Dick that much if he had an Amazon and Superman clone job to KGBeast so Dick can pull off the last minute save.

----------


## Schumiac

> Lobdell cant hate Dick that much if he had an Amazon and Superman clone job to KGBeast so Dick can pull off the last minute save.


Using a character because you know he is likely to boost interest in your issue or because he works within that stroy is not same as being invested in that character or having particular care for him.. And the way I remember it, Dick failed to take down KGBeast and it was actually the Amazon and the Superman Clone who beat him in the end. Dick got to surprise attack him and won them time though.

----------


## Pohzee

Can we not pretend that feats are worth anything in regards to competency in writing a character?

----------


## Pohzee

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/0...at-cat-romance

Haha sounds like we get to look forward to more of the same for Nightwing! Yes!

“We’re excited for fans to get more of what they love from DC,” said Harras. “With Joëlle Jones continuing on CATWOMAN, a new creative team on BATMAN, plus titles like DETECTIVE COMICS, BATGIRL, NIGHTWING, RED HOOD: OUTLAW and BATMAN AND THE OUTSIDERS, our Gotham City protectors and the talent behind them will continue to offer great stories that cater to the tastes of as many Bat-fans as possible in 2020 and beyond.”

----------


## Godlike13

Well it’s his in house buddies reaping the benefits of Nightwing being a nothing no effort book. More work for them.

----------


## king81992

At this point, we need to ask ourselves a serious question: will the Ric Grayson debacle end before Catwoman and Batman get married? Because there seems to be no end in sight for this nonsense to end.

----------


## Pohzee

Looks like Nicola Scott is doing a mockup 80 years of Dick Grayson like she did for the Trinity. Kinda cool
https://twitter.com/nicolascottart/s...686907904?s=21

----------


## Rac7d*

> At this point, we need to ask ourselves a serious question: will the Ric Grayson debacle end before Catwoman and Batman get married? Because there seems to be no end in sight for this nonsense to end.


I am giving it until October, since live action Nightwing is to debut by the years end
I am down to two books I am pulling and one ends in two months

----------


## Godlike13

They could care less what the Titan show does. Ric probably bleeds into 2020 now with them not knowing what they are doing with Batman.

----------


## byrd156

> At this point, we need to ask ourselves a serious question: will the Ric Grayson debacle end before Catwoman and Batman get married? Because there seems to be no end in sight for this nonsense to end.


I think it will possibly right before they get married. DC may be stupid and tone deaf sometimes but they wouldn't have batman get married without Dick Grayson being there in some form or another.

----------


## BloodOps

“We’re excited for fans to get more of what they love from DC,” Harras said. “With Joëlle Jones continuing on CATWOMAN, a new creative team on BATMAN, plus titles like DETECTIVE COMICS, BATGIRL, *NIGHTWING*, RED HOOD: OUTLAW and BATMAN AND THE OUTSIDERS, our Gotham City protectors and the talent behind them will continue to offer great stories that cater to the tastes of as many Bat-fans as possible in 2020 and beyond.”

Fuck off DC

----------


## Arsenal

> Can we not pretend that feats are worth anything in regards to competency in writing a character?


My bad. Forgot that one, while in this thread, must be 100% serious at all times while Ric exists. Only until the hobo bum is gone for good are folk allowed to have a little bit of fun in here again.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think it will possibly right before they get married. DC may be stupid and tone deaf sometimes but they wouldn't have batman get married without Dick Grayson being there in some form or another.


I've said things like this before, but I learned from the wedding cancelation after a thousand variants, the Ric Grayson situation, the many deaths of Lois Lane for Walmart and the Wally West situation, that there's no limit to DC's stupidity.

----------


## Pohzee

> My bad. Forgot that one, while in this thread, must be 100% serious at all times while Ric exists. Only until the hobo bum is gone for good are folk allowed to have a little bit of fun in here again.


That argument about power levels was not serious?

Lobdell is bad for reasons beyond how he orders his rock, paper, scissors.

----------


## Arsenal

> *That argument about power levels was not serious?*
> 
> Lobdell is bad for reasons beyond how he orders his rock, paper, scissors.


Why would it be?

----------


## yohyoi

LOL King compared his upcoming Catwoman/Batman run to Morrison's Batman and Robin. His upcoming series is just a bribe to make him stay at DC, while Batman and Robin is the most enjoyable part of Morrison's epic and the most experimental and era defining change since No Man's Land. We all know King won't "change Batman for a generation". Morrison did. And we got a great DickBats era out of it.

----------


## yohyoi

Harras is the same as DiDio and why Lobdell gets protection of the things he did, one of these was sexual harassment. Listening to him is like listening to DiDio. So yeah f*** that noise!

----------


## yohyoi

> I think it will possibly right before they get married. DC may be stupid and tone deaf sometimes but they wouldn't have batman get married without Dick Grayson being there in some form or another.


Yeah, they are not getting married. No chance. Especially when King got fired from Batman. The next writer will have none of that.

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah, they are not getting married. No chance. Especially when King got fired from Batman. The next writer will have none of that.


Thanks for the insider info. I personally don't know or really care if they get married or not. It just seems like a major waste of time to promote this whole thing and get nothing out of it. Something major has to come out of the Batman/Catwoman series.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Thanks for the insider info. I personally don't know or really care if they get married or not. It just seems like a major waste of time to promote this whole thing and get nothing out of it. Something major has to come out of the Batman/Catwoman series.


I am sure it debut in time for the cat woman actress announcement

but 2020...... godanm   they really gonna make us wait that long

i always wanted a full poster of this
they made him super handsome here

----------


## Schumiac

> I think it will possibly right before they get married. DC may be stupid and tone deaf sometimes but they wouldn't have batman get married without Dick Grayson being there in some form or another.


Well technically he was going to get married on top of a rooftop with a drunken (?, I forgot now) priest to officiate, with no one else other than Alfred, so... wouldn't rule it out... 


or maybe Dick will get the invitation and will say "no thanks, I am not that person. yet". lol

----------


## Frontier

> Well technically he was going to get married on top of a rooftop with a drunken (?, I forgot now) priest to officiate, with no one else other than Alfred, so... wouldn't rule it out...


Yeah, even the way they were planning to handle the marriage didn't seem like it was going to treat it as this super-official thing that I think people were expecting it to be.

----------


## Schumiac

Was that because of Joker's attack? Their version of "let's get married now/in Vegas and not risk something else getting in the way"? Because they did make a fuss about Bruce choosing his best man and all the Bat-family interactions leading to the Wedding?

Or did King simply forgot he was supposed to be making a big deal of this wedding with friends and family very much involved?

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah, even the way they were planning to handle the marriage didn't seem like it was going to treat it as this super-official thing that I think people were expecting it to be.


In story it might not be a big thing but DC was promoting the hell out of it. It was like a mini Death and Return of Superman. I heard some none comic people talking about it that I knew.

----------


## Godlike13

They wouldn’t hesitate to do the wedding with out Dick. Come one now.

----------


## lilyrose

> In story it might not be a big thing but DC was promoting the hell out of it. It was like a mini Death and Return of Superman. I heard some none comic people talking about it that I knew.


It was definitely hyped BEYOND the comics world. The wedding was in other news outlets, even. They really blew it by not going through with it.

----------


## byrd156

> The wouldn’t hesitate to do the wedding with out Dick. Come one now.


Eh I disagree. Even if he's not a part of the plot or story Dick would be there even if it doesn't make sense why he's there.

----------


## Arsenal

If the Bat/Cat marriage goes down, I doubt most of the Batfam will even have a presence at all beyond cameos in the background or small interactions.

So they could always just throw Dick Ric in there and not having him say a word.

----------


## Godlike13

> Eh I disagree. Even if he's not a part of the plot or story Dick would be there even if it doesn't make sense why he's there.


We care for Dick more then they do. I see no evidence that they would think twice leaving him out.

----------


## byrd156

> We care for Dick more then they do. I see no evidence that they would think twice leaving him out.


Sure but we won't know until it happens or doesn't happen in this case.

----------


## Schumiac

It depends on what King wants... I feel he will either go the "grandoise" wedding way where it is a big superhero world thing where you get cameos not from just bat-family but other characters OR he will want it to be purely a Bruce/Selina thing where no one else is involved, including the "children"... but yeah, wait and see...

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is out of Kings hands at this point.

----------


## Lazurus33

‘Titans’ Star Brenton Thwaites Suits Up As Nightwing In New Image

https://heroichollywood.com/titans-b...ghtwing-image/

----------


## Frontier

> ‘Titans’ Star Brenton Thwaites Suits Up As Nightwing In New Image
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/titans-b...ghtwing-image/


Dang it, I thought it was going to be his actual Nightwing suit  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Schumiac

> Ric is out of Kings hands at this point.


Yes but he is the one writing the wedding (assuming it is happening) so he will the one deciding who makes an appearence or not... If Ric is still going on chances are he will leave him where he is as don't think he wants anything to do with Ric, himself, even though he is responsible for what happened to poor Dick.

----------


## byrd156

> ‘Titans’ Star Brenton Thwaites Suits Up As Nightwing In New Image
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/titans-b...ghtwing-image/


This was disappointing.

----------


## Ascended

> ‘Titans’ Star Brenton Thwaites Suits Up As Nightwing In New Image
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/titans-b...ghtwing-image/


Dude! I thought that was gonna be a legit image. You got me all excited for nothing. 

Excellent trolling.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godlike13

I think we all know by now Kings doesn’t make the final decisions. 

Ric sucks. For a multitude of reasons, and one of them being is that he’s an editorial creation. Ric is a reflection of the editors and their recruited creators creative and professional aptitude. So as long as those same people are there, they are going to protect it and commit to it. Cause if they don’t, and don’t dig in their heels and carry on like it’s this awesome idea that it obviously isn’t, it makes them look bad. They are going to cover their own butts. We have already seen some of it already. Its not that Ric is bad, and that the story and ideas are bad and blatant lazy rip offs, it’s that the readers just don’t get it and aren’t giving it chance. It’s their poop, and they are going to protect thier poop because doing so protects themselves. So they aren’t going to let even the likes of King undercut it. He’s already been cautioned about what he can even say about it.

----------


## Badou

Dick at most will just be drawn in the background audience at any wedding if it happens with other heroes. He isn't going to have any sort of active role. He has already given that to Clark.

----------


## Ascended

And while DC covers its ass and pretends this is some amazing thing that we're just too dumb or stubborn to get, the sales keep falling. Who's losing out here?

Here's a little business theory: if you make a product your consumers don't buy.....it doesnt matter if it's good, or better than the original. You tailor your product to your customer. 

So maybe DC could stop with this "brilliant" crap that no one but them is smart enough to get, and make a product the customers actually want? Dumb it down for us, huh DC?

----------


## Godlike13

Us, we lose. Cause unfortunately Nightwing is still under the radar enough that these editors can get away with it. No one at DC cares enough about the character or the book for there to be any standards or accountability. So they can take one of their top selling Bat family members, one they were once confidant enough to double ship, and let him become their lowest selling Bat family member while they dig in their heels to cover their butt and still claim how they offer great stories that cater to tastes of Bat fans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Us, we lose. Cause unfortunately Nightwing is still under the radar enough that these editors can get away with it. No one at DC cares enough about the character or the book for there to be any standards or accountability. So they can take one of their top selling Bat family members, one they were once confidant enough to double ship, and let him become their lowest selling Bat family member while they dig in their heels to cover their butt and still claim how they offer great stories that cater to tastes of Bat fans.


We have to stop worrying about the comics their out of our hand. Just focus on streaming when he debuts in Titans

----------


## byrd156

> Dick at most will just be drawn in the background audience at any wedding if it happens with other heroes. He isn't going to have any sort of active role. He has already given that to Clark.


This is what I'm expecting.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This is what I'm expecting.


Batman was for his wedding

----------


## Pohzee

> We have to stop worrying about the comics their out of our hand. Just focus on streaming when he debuts in Titans


Enjoy Titans, but I don't care about it like I care about the comics. They're what "count."

----------


## Jackalope89

> Enjoy Titans, but I don't care about it like I care about the comics. They're what "count."


What about Young Justice: Outsiders?

----------


## Godlike13

Those things are cool, but i still like the comics. So I’d be nice to like his. This last year has been so disheartening, and I’ve been reading comics for a while now. Even the Devin Grayson days, at least she genuinely gave a shit. This is what gets me about Dick’s current situation. It’s not just that his comic is bad, it’s the obvious lack of care and blatant laziness, and how no one there even cares enough to do anything about it and continues to just allow it. Instead they double down, and find one of their protected in house creators to not subtly tell us at the end of there boring crap how oh no its not that this story or writing (I mean plotting) is bad, it’s that people aren’t giving it a chance. It’s so disheartening not just as a Nightwing reader, but as a comic reader.

----------


## Jackalope89

> We like comics.


So, "Ric" over Dick taking down human traffickers, training the newest upcoming heroes/metahumans, and undercutting the world's villains?

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

----------


## Pohzee

Young Justice is and may always be one of the greatest depictions of Dick. But part of the reason that I care about something as silly as superheroes is the idea that these characters are icons with neverending stories. The strength of characters like Batman and co is that they have 75 years of history behind them and conceivably as many years ahead or until the industry fails. So while Young Justice is great, it isn't a part of the tapestry that attracts me to the character in the first place.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Enjoy Titans, but I don't care about it like I care about the comics. They're what "count."


But in finding strength with other platforms and media the comics have no choice but to follow suit. So if the show is done well and nightwing is revived well he should be able to get back to status quo

----------


## Pohzee

Of course I enjoy the show. I'm just not of the mindset "The comics are bad, so accept that it is bad and move on to TV."
I want better from the comics.

----------


## Godlike13

> So, "Ric" over Dick taking down human traffickers, training the newest upcoming heroes/metahumans, and undercutting the world's villains?
> 
> Whatever floats your boat I guess.


The medium, not his current poop of a comic specifically. The existence of comic TV shows and movies doesn’t stop my love for reading comic books. I enjoy Titans and YJs quite a bit, but I still want to be able to enjoy Dick’s comic. Cause at the end of the day I still enjoy reading comics, good ones at least.

----------


## WonderNight

> So, "Ric" over Dick taking down human traffickers, training the newest upcoming heroes/metahumans, and undercutting the world's villains?
> 
> Whatever floats your boat I guess.


funny enough both yj.o and titans dick have a very different status quo than comics dick.

Yj.o dick goes globetrotting around the greater dcu on espionage missions for/with the JL.

Titans dick runs around the country interacting with characters from the greater dcu.

Dick in the comics is isolated from the greater dcu in Gotham-lite fighting mediocre no names. It's like the nightwing book is just there to be a side book for batman ot use for his story's when he needs a good jobber. Sad

----------


## Rac7d*

> Of course I enjoy the show. I'm just not of the mindset "The comics are bad, so accept that it is bad and move on to TV."
> I want better from the comics.


I am not saying moove on, I am saying supporting  those mediusm will help him in the comics

----------


## Arsenal

Excuse the interruption in todays regularly scheduled doom & gloom, but I believe we have some (potentially) positive Dick Grayson comic news for once
5A48A3DC-1DAE-4C4E-982D-06650BF93589.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

Grain of salt. Grain of salt.

----------


## Arsenal

962ABFDB-6EA3-4711-B631-90F4DDB8A61C.jpg
Theres Also this. Dicks name isnt mentioned but Im pretty sure the 2nd picture is Disco Dick.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I've more or less just stopped reading comics at this point. Besides Marvel's Thor stuff, GG Power Rangers, and IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog, I'm not really touching anything else.

It really is much easier moving on to other stuff than it is sticking around and holding out imo. It'll take forever, but we should get back to our regular Nightwing fare. But after all this, I'm well aware of how the character and the IP is viewed, so I really don't expect we'll ever get anything special out of it. As a fan, you're likely going to get something a lot more worthwhile from the TV side of things since that's where Dick's biggest fans are working now.

----------


## Pohzee

> Excuse the interruption in today’s regularly scheduled doom & gloom, but I believe we have some (potentially) positive Dick Grayson comic news for once
> 5A48A3DC-1DAE-4C4E-982D-06650BF93589.jpg


Yay will this be Ric's first appearance outside of Nightwing and that one panel of Batman?

----------


## Godlike13

That’s funny.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 962ABFDB-6EA3-4711-B631-90F4DDB8A61C.jpg
> There’s Also this. Dick’s name isn’t mentioned but I’m pretty sure the 2nd picture is Disco Dick.


That does look like multiple panels of a thing

----------


## Pohzee

> That does look like multiple panels of a thing


Minus the side angle of the last pic, it could easily be an 80 years of Dick to go with her WW, BM and SM ones.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Minus the side angle of the last pic, it could easily be 80 years of Dick to go with her WW, BM and SM ones.


Wonder Woman's getting 80 years book? I thought those are for Action and Detective Comics instead of character celebration, so I wasn't expecting Dick and Diana to get one since they don't have titles that last that long. 

...oh! Oh! You mean the cover! Now I remember she made a Superman one. (browsing right now) wow I never saw the Batman one

...Oh ...knowing her... and Dick... this cover maybe special featuring one facing backward so we can see his ass

----------


## Arsenal

> That does look like multiple panels of a thing


Multiple pictures of a thing is better than nothing at all.

Baby steps.

----------


## Schumiac

TBH, I think DC knows Ric sucks and will change it when they can... They aren't sticking to it to save face, they are sticking to it because the reason this was done to him (keeping him out of Batman's current story) hasn't changed AND they have no committed creative team on the titile to take it into a direction, any direction. So they just pretend it is something exciting and would work if we only had an open mind about it blah bla because it is not going to be undone yet. They need to keep on selling it and for that they need to pretend it is good. They can't just say "yeah, you guys are right, this sucks, but you will have to suffer 6 months of this suckfest because we can't yet bring Dick Grayson back".  So Dick is in limbo and we are stuck with Ric till
1) till at least King's Bane stuff is done and over with
2) they can find a new permanent team for the title and decide on where to go with him from here (I don't think Jurgens is necessarily permanent, right?)

and this is of course assuming Didio isnt as horrid, petty and unprofessional as I sometimes think he is.

----------


## Ascended

I don't expect DC to knock its own product. The book is crap and the sales back that up, but you can't expect the company to admit it while the direction is still on-going. That's just not done. 

Once Ric is well and truly in the rear view, you *might* get someone from DC to acknowledge that it didn't go over with fans the way they had hoped. Which is as close to admitting fault as they're likely to get, and as close to an apology as we'll ever see. And they probably won't even admit that much and will just blame the character and/or the fans. 

Someone on the last page said that the comics are out of our hands. Which is true. We're not producers, we're consumers and the only choice we have is to buy the product or not. 

But sometimes I wonder. 

In this age of social media and digital.....would it be possible for fans to create a free Nightwing comic (can't charge, because that's a lawsuit) that got enough attention that it actually bit into DC's profit margins? I've probably mentioned this elsewhere in the forums before, but we have some damn clever and creative people here. What would happen if a free fan-based product became popular enough that people stopped buying the actual comic and switched to the fan-made one? How would DC react if a free comic actually cut into their revenue? They can't sue over fanfic or demand the creators stop. How would DC handle such a situation? I cant imagine how DC would handle it, but if it were me, I'd probably offer the person responsible a job. If they're talented enough to steal business from a company like DC they're someone I want in my office.  :Big Grin: 

I almost think this scenario is inevitable; at some point (tomorrow? Years and years and years from now?) the stars will align and some random dude drawing pictures on his day off will end up getting serious attention from the fan community and it'll upset the sales on a struggling title no one wants to read. And that'll start a whole conversation about public domain and publication rights and company structure and all kinds of things. I hope I live to see it happen because it sounds like one of those crazy "glitch in the Matrix" moments that you only ever see happen once.

----------


## Restingvoice

Well, they gotta start to learn how to write detective stories first because the fan comics I saw are either family sitcoms or romcoms, with people wishing there's a Batfam comic of them doing daily family stuffs.

----------


## Godlike13

Oh, they know. They also know readers aren’t happy. They just don’t give a crap, and no one cares enough to make them give a crap. They have seemingly committed to this to a set point. That seems evident. Best guess was that ya they are holding out till something in Batman, and they wanted Dick off the table for whatever King was doing, but as we are learning there are those within DC that don’t like the current Batman and that’s now become a whole thing. Batman plans seem rather up in the air. So not sure what that means for Ric or what their intentions really are or even were with Ric. I was even thinking they were holding out until a Bat line relaunch, but seems thats not the case. From the beginning Ric seemed like something they were winging as they go. And since there seems to be no accountability or standards with the character, and they seem perfectly ok with letting the Nightwing team’s work and recruiting turn the book into now DCs lowest selling Bat family book. Honestly I’m not sure it’s about whats going on in King’s Batman anymore, or if it even ever even was. 

Still until whenever this ends they are going to protect their work, they are going to caution creators about what they say about it, and they are going to protect themselves as they create and execute it. Unfortunately for us though it seems we’re going to have suffer closer, and possibly over even, a year of this with no compromise or improvements. Which shows how little anyone at DC actually cares. 6 months is one thing, a year or more though under this reception is just wow.
Now I have no doubt they’ll change it when they reach the point they want this to last to, and whats more I fully expect them to throw Ric under the bus when it’s time is up even. Cause Ric is an easy mask and target, and it’ll sound better for those responsible to say Ric didn’t work, and eventually even admit that readers didn’t like Ric, then say readers didn’t like our work or that we recruited poorly, lazily recycled ideas, and didn’t give a crap if what we put out was actually anything of quality or if anyone even liked it. 
This is why Dick is truly screwed. Ric isn’t really the true problem. The real problem is the people behind Ric, who’s work and ideas made Ric such crap, and who are likely going to be the same people responsible for Dick’s return. So when Dick does return guess what we’re probably gonna get. Poor recruiting, lazy recycled ideas, and no one giving a crap if what they put out is anything of quality or if anyone likes it.

Man I’m just going on and on. I really need to stop ranting about this whole Ric situation.

----------


## Robanker

> Well, they gotta start to learn how to write detective stories first because the fan comics I saw are either family sitcoms or romcoms, with people wishing there's a Batfam comic of them doing daily family stuffs.


That reminds a bit of that Batman and Sons webcomic. 

This is the sort of thing people claim to want, but generally doesn't seem to sell. It's easy to want something you see in fan art, but when you're paying $5 for it, well the sales stagger. I love the small character moments but I don't think they can sell a book alone. 

I honestly don't know what you can do to make Nightwing sell. I thought Bludhaven was a good idea in Dixon's run (though with a silly name) and bringing it back to re-establish him in Rebirth was a good idea. Giving him a new character as a love interest who wasn't Barbara/Kori was asking for trouble, though. Dick's love life is a Gordian knot best left unaddressed for a while. I would argue his most recent sidekick, Damian, is similar. He needs to be given a new direction that is independent of other characters, but Bludhaven seems burned.

Who knows? At least we can all agree Ric isn't the answer.

----------


## Zaresh

> That reminds a bit of that Batman and Sons webcomic. 
> 
> This is the sort of thing people claim to want, but generally doesn't seem to sell. It's easy to want something you see in fan art, but when you're paying $5 for it, well the sales stagger. I love the small character moments but I don't think they can sell a book alone. 
> 
> I honestly don't know what you can do to make Nightwing sell. I thought Bludhaven was a good idea in Dixon's run (though with a silly name) and bringing it back to re-establish him in Rebirth was a good idea. Giving him a new character as a love interest who wasn't Barbara/Kori was asking for trouble, though. Dick's love life is a Gordian knot best left unaddressed for a while. I would argue his most recent sidekick, Damian, is similar. He needs to be given a new direction that is independent of other characters, but Bludhaven seems burned.
> 
> Who knows? At least we can all agree Ric isn't the answer.


Hmmm, I got an idea.

Maybe burning Bludhaven would make for a murder mystery story people woild like. I mean, burning the city literally by the actions of some kind of arsonist with unclear motivations. It would both work with rebounding Dick with the city, getting to know it, interacting with characters to meet and deepen their relationship, and build up some kind of catharsis that brings Old Dick back. It doesn't meed to be too overdramatic (like see, nuking the city, or bombing his place or something); just open the story with some kind of oldstyle impact (an imposible fire that got killed a well known figure in the neightboorhood in a rather gruesome way, for example). That first impactful event would catch Dick's interest, and then the story slowly progreses. Could be that the fires are small, but all unlikely to have happened; could be that the city it's being flooded ironically; could be that there are various arsonists with several different, conflicted interests (economics, politics, religions: you name it); could be that in the end it's all because some alien artifact that manipulates people's minds; could be the pulling strings of some acquaintance of Dick that seems like a bad guy but in the end just make an unforgiving mistake that is getting people killed. I don't know, just build a murder mystery story from basics, from classics, and add a few random unusual-for-the-genre elements, and see how it all rolls. Maybe towards a grand finale with some part of the city burning to the ground while the characters reach their realizations and their apotheosis.

----------


## Robanker

> Hmmm, I got an idea.
> 
> Maybe burning Bludhaven would make for a murder mystery story people woild like. I mean, burning the city literally by the actions of some kind of arsonist with unclear motivations. It would both work with rebounding Dick with the city, getting to know it, interacting with characters to meet and deepen their relationship, and build up some kind of catharsis that brings Old Dick back. It doesn't meed to be too overdramatic (like see, nuking the city, or bombing his place or something); just open the story with some kind of oldstyle impact (an imposible fire that got killed a well known figure in the neightboorhood in a rather gruesome way, for example). That first impactful event would catch Dick's interest, and then the story slowly progreses. Could be that the fires are small, but all unlikely to have happened; could be that the city it's being flooded ironically; could be that there are various arsonists with several different, conflicted interests (economics, politics, religions: you name it); could be that in the end it's all because some alien artifact that manipulates people's minds; could be the pulling strings of some acquaintance of Dick that seems like a bad guy but in the end just make an unforgiving mistake that is getting people killed. I don't know, just build a murder mystery story from basics, from classics, and add a few random unusual-for-the-genre elements, and see how it all rolls. Maybe towards a grand finale with some part of the city burning to the ground while the characters reach their realizations and their apotheosis.


I honestly really do like the idea of Bludhaven becoming something of a Neo Vegas/Casino town, but I just don't know if it's possible to use that city a third time. I feel a lot of Nightwing fans just want him to play the hits (some remix of leading the Titans, hooking up with a former paramour, setting up in Bludhaven and teaming with Damian) as opposed to a new direction. When re-establishing a character that makes sense, but which pieces to arrange is the mess.

Have him join the JSA as their newest instructor for younger members. He seems to be someone both generations could respect and who understands both himself. Unlike some other characters who bridge that gap (PG, for example, who I love but can't sell a book), he would also boost sales.

I honestly don't know what to do with him that would work anymore that isn't a rehash. I want to say just tell fun adventure stories mixed in with street crime, but is that enough to stem the tide of Dickfire and DickBabs?

----------


## Zaresh

> I honestly really do like the idea of Bludhaven becoming something of a Neo Vegas/Casino town, but I just don't know if it's possible to use that city a third time. I feel a lot of Nightwing fans just want him to play the hits (some remix of leading the Titans, hooking up with a former paramour, setting up in Bludhaven and teaming with Damian) as opposed to a new direction. When re-establishing a character that makes sense, but which pieces to arrange is the mess.
> 
> Have him join the JSA as their newest instructor for younger members. He seems to be someone both generations could respect and who understands both himself. Unlike some other characters who bridge that gap (PG, for example, who I love but can't sell a book), he would also boost sales.
> 
> I honestly don't know what to do with him that would work anymore that isn't a rehash. I want to say just tell fun adventure stories mixed in with street crime, but is that enough to stem the tide of Dickfire and DickBabs?


Well, I used BH for my example because that's where his previous ties were during Rebirth, and where he has characters that he does know and are not the batfam. You could use NY too, but, does he have any connection there in the current canon? And I would want to cross out Gotham because there are a lot more places in the world. Not everything has to happen in that city.

Personally, I would try, again, a new pairing/love interest. Doesn't need to aim for a long lasting ship, but it's there to ground the character somehow and make him regain his own self somehow. I wouldn't use Babs or Kori for a very simple reason: whatever you do with them in NW's book, should have some sort of consequences in their own books. And we all know how well that works nowadays, which is, it rarely happens. Not to mention that it could open another can of worns: shipwars that could grow nasty.

----------


## bearman

I dont think the JSA is a bad option...if DC is not going to pursue the spy angle.
Years ago, he was hanging with the JSA, and I kind of expected him to join then.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That reminds a bit of that Batman and Sons webcomic. 
> 
> This is the sort of thing people claim to want, but generally doesn't seem to sell. It's easy to want something you see in fan art, but when you're paying $5 for it, well the sales stagger. I love the small character moments but I don't think they can sell a book alone.


The closest thing we got to a daily life Batfam title is Li'l Gotham. A lot of people like it, but it's a limited series, so I can't really say if it can maintain momentum for long. 

Another example would be the Gotham Academy, where the main attraction is the cast interaction. 

Actually, I don't need to go that far. Tomasi's Batman and Robin and Super Sons are another example of that. They still have that superhero conflict, but the main plot is the characters relationship development. Those are probably the best example we have where the main attraction is the character dynamic but still have exciting action scenes for anyone wanting standard superhero fare.  

Detective Comics by Tynion is another step after that. This one leans more to regular superhero comic. The bulk of it is Gotham-endangering plot, but there are also character interactions that those fans like. 

All of these titles are fan favorites, so they don't have to be all about the family, as long as the family relation is still heavily featured alongside the superhero part of the story.

Back to Nightwing, I think he benefits from this kind of storytelling, since the issue where Damian and Wally appeared stopped the sales from dropping.

----------


## Robanker

I agree that those can be popular when included, my concern is when it's the primary focus of the book, people will think nothing is really happening and it's fluff.

I live for character moments, but you do need a plot to resolve and something up challenge our heroes.

----------


## Vordan

I’d have Dick join the new spy organization that’s sure to spin out of _Event Leviathan_ as DC’s SHIELD. Have it be HQ in Bludhaven so Dick still has a reason to visit the city, but he can also have lots of international adventures with a job that’s actually relevant to his superhero life while still providing conflict just like Spyral did. He can be the JL’s mole in the organization to keep an eye on it or lone wolf joining it for a sense of direction Post-Ric.

----------


## Badou

Maybe DC should just quit tying to force Bludhaven into his stories since it is such a dull setting. Like the only good I can see that could come out of this Ric garbage is when Dick comes back and stops being Ric he can leave Bludhaven for good and let the Nightwing cops protect it instead. Then that anchor around his neck is finally gone and he doesn't have to worry about it anymore. I mean I don't even think Bludhaven is even worth burning down because no one would really care. They burned down Haly's Circus and no one cared about that either and Bludhaven is even more useless than Haly's. But I know this won't happen and Dick is unfortunately handcuffed to Bludhaven in DC's eyes.

----------


## Robanker

I meant burned as a concept instead of literally, but that does make me wonder if actually burning it down could lead to Nightwing having to actually rebuild his city. This would enable a new creative team to fully re-establish it and hopefully find a hook that makes it work.

I am eternally mystified how Chuck Dixon made all this look easy when he had his run.

----------


## jules

> I meant burned as a concept instead of literally, but that does make me wonder if actually burning it down could lead to Nightwing having to actually rebuild his city. This would enable a new creative team to fully re-establish it and hopefully find a hook that makes it work.
> 
> I am eternally mystified how Chuck Dixon made all this look easy when he had his run.


I found Bludhaven dull as ditchwater with a stupid name when Dixon was writing it too. The city didn’t have much of a character beyond Gotham-wannabe - I prefer Seeley’s Atlantic City-esque reimagining of it -  but I think the Bludhaven-focused part of Dixon’s run was wrapped more around the conflict Nightwing had with both Torque and Blockbuster, and Dick’s attempts to counter the extreme corruption in its police department from the inside by joining up. That latter part is a story that couldn’t have been told as easily in Gotham, because you’d have had to contain it to a single precinct or get Gordon, Bullock, Montoya and co out of the way first, but other than that there was no particular reason why Dick couldn’t have just bought himself any department building in Gotham as a base of operations. Half the time he just jumped on his bike and drove to Gotham to show up for a Bat-crossover anyway.

Of course, that means that a sizeable chunk of Dixon’s Nightwing run didn’t exile him from the family or to this separate city. He wasn’t a character cut off from what everyone else was doing, not least because Dixon was writing half the other Bat-books at the time anyway and crossed over the characters all the time. So if Bludhaven itself wasn’t inspiring to the reader, they only had to wait for the next plague or earthquake to roll around and Dick would be back in Gotham for a few months.

----------


## Godlike13

It been blown up and completely rebuilt and re-established. But all of it went out the window with the creator musical chairs after Seeley wanted out, and now it has seemingly reverted back into Dixon’s traditional Gotham-esque Bludhaven somehow. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like Monneyham’s art on the title. His Bludhaven doesn’t resemble the Bludhaven we were introduced to with Rebirth at all.

----------


## Robanker

> I found Bludhaven dull as ditchwater with a stupid name when Dixon was writing it too. The city didn’t have much of a character beyond Gotham-wannabe - I prefer Seeley’s Atlantic City-esque reimagining of it -  but I think the Bludhaven-focused part of Dixon’s run was wrapped more around the conflict Nightwing had with both Torque and Blockbuster, and Dick’s attempts to counter the extreme corruption in its police department from the inside by joining up. That latter part is a story that couldn’t have been told as easily in Gotham, because you’d have had to contain it to a single precinct or get Gordon, Bullock, Montoya and co out of the way first, but other than that there was no particular reason why Dick couldn’t have just bought himself any department building in Gotham as a base of operations. Half the time he just jumped on his bike and drove to Gotham to show up for a Bat-crossover anyway.
> 
> Of course, that means that a sizeable chunk of Dixon’s Nightwing run didn’t exile him from the family or to this separate city. He wasn’t a character cut off from what everyone else was doing, not least because Dixon was writing half the other Bat-books at the time anyway and crossed over the characters all the time. So if Bludhaven itself wasn’t inspiring to the reader, they only had to wait for the next plague or earthquake to roll around and Dick would be back in Gotham for a few months.


I agree insofar as Seeley's approach being more interesting and the name being silly, but you kind of proved my point that Dixon made it work. Bludhaven had things going on. Dick had multiple plot threads to resolve tied to the city and his status quo didn't prevent him from exploring the other parts of his character. Bludhaven served to enrich his story and gave him enough distance from Batman that the reader didn't have to ask why Bruce, Gordon and the like weren't around.

It doesn't have to be as unique as Gotham or Metropolis. I'm not sure any fictional city ever will, not even Keystone, Central or Star City. It just needs to provide opportunities, a tone and some space from the rest of the DCU. I would argue Dixon was able to accomplish that in his run.

Returning a third time to it is probably asking too much, but I'm unsure how to reuse it if the Seeley approach didn't take. He'll never get out of Bruce's shadow in Gotham and DC/the fans won't accept his own city, so what then? Settle on a real one like Chicago? Move into Star? Opal? Metropolis of all places?

----------


## byrd156

> I agree insofar as Seeley's approach being more interesting and the name being silly, but you kind of proved my point that Dixon made it work. Bludhaven had things going on. Dick had multiple plot threads to resolve tied to the city and his status quo didn't prevent him from exploring the other parts of his character. Bludhaven served to enrich his story and gave him enough distance from Batman that the reader didn't have to ask why Bruce, Gordon and the like weren't around.
> 
> It doesn't have to be as unique as Gotham or Metropolis. I'm not sure any fictional city ever will, not even Keystone, Central or Star City. It just needs to provide opportunities, a tone and some space from the rest of the DCU. I would argue Dixon was able to accomplish that in his run.
> 
> Returning a third time to it is probably asking too much, but I'm unsure how to reuse it if the Seeley approach didn't take. He'll never get out of Bruce's shadow in Gotham and DC/the fans won't accept his own city, so what then? Settle on a real one like Chicago? Move into Star? Opal? Metropolis of all places?


The way Dixon used Bludhaven was perfect in my eyes. It was the last time a city felt unique that didn't belong to Superman or Batman.

----------


## dropkickjake

> The way Dixon used Bludhaven was perfect in my eyes. It was the last time a city felt unique that didn't belong to Superman or Batman.


I'm not sure I can agree that it felt unique. It worked for what it was, though.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick’s HiC confessional was some boosh. I’m certain it would have been more apt had he and Damian’s roles been switched.

----------


## byrd156

> Dick’s HiC confessional was some boosh. I’m certain it would have been more apt had he and Damian’s roles been switched.


The whole story was crap, why would Dick's one panel be any different?

----------


## Godlike13

It was a very boring confession from all the boys.

----------


## Arsenal

It was simply a wasted opportunity for all of them. 

They all bring much more compelling possible topics to the table than "X is this, Y is that and Z is the other but what the hell am I?"

----------


## Robanker

> It was simply a wasted opportunity for all of them. 
> 
> They all bring much more compelling possible topics to the table than "X is this, Y is that and Z is the other but what the hell am I?"


The recurring nature of their confessional panels was the joke. It was a tone deaf attempt at humor.

----------


## dropkickjake

> It was a very boring confession from all the boys.


I felt like it fit for Tim, at least in a meta sense. Disappointed that King didn't hit on a deeper insecurity of a character he worked closely with instead of using it as a set up for a mediocre joke.

----------


## yohyoi

The joke one was Hal's. He is not the smartest Green Lantern, but we are supposed to believe he doesn't have a concept of what will is. It's like a soldier asking what bravery is. King is trying to sound philosophical but ending up sounding like woke Facebook posts.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick of all the damn “Robins” should have no insecurities about the others. He is the trailblazer and the measuring stick.

At least he didn't blow anyone up. But he should've been Wally's Barbara/Beetle in this story.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick’s HiC confessional was some boosh. I’m certain it would have been more apt had he and Damian’s roles been switched.


Nah Dick Jason and Damian have since the New 52 began been working on these issues they would not be here presently. Its like showing Jason the crobar today, its not gonna trigger him like it use too. Dick has no inner confusion who he was as robin he since left that behind he only succumbs to the pressure of having to inherit Batman will when the time comes. Damian  made it clear during the War of the robins, he knows who he is. It would have been different if it had somthing to do with his ressurection, his life as an al ghoul or even if slade could be his father   anything else. This was written by a clown who has not read nothing of the batfamily, they arent like the rest of the cameos they had the last* 9* years in this contiuity to work on their inner problems

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick of all the damn “Robins” should have no insecurities about the others. He is the trailblazer and the measuring stick.


Dick outgrew Robin a long time ago. Why would he compare himself to his replacements? He is his own man. He has his own city. His own team. He knows who he is. He is Nightwing. Leader of the Titans. Protector of Bludhaven. Last of the Flying Graysons. He is fucking Richard "Dick" Grayson. Ahhhhhh!!!

I miss Dick so much. Ric... Ric... Ric... I freaking hate Ric so much! He is only selling because he is standing above the grave of Dick. What the hell is wrong with DC!

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

King writes them as tropes and ninja turtles + King is like Didio and every superhero should be sad

----------


## Rac7d*

> King writes them as tropes and ninja turtles + King is like Didio and every superhero should be sad


I guess Damian really is the mikey that his kind of response

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick outgrew Robin a long time ago. Why would he compare himself to his replacements? He is his own man. He has his own city. His own team. He knows who he is. He is Nightwing. Leader of the Titans. Protector of Bludhaven. Last of the Flying Graysons. He is fucking Richard "Dick" Grayson. Ahhhhhh!!!
> 
> I miss Dick so much. Ric... Ric... Ric... I freaking hate Ric so much! He is only selling because he is standing above the grave of Dick. What the hell is wrong with DC!


He''s been batman who give a flying who he was as robin

----------


## dietrich

didn't like the HIC confessional's especially Dick's.  I also hate when they are reduced to those shallow brackets like the funny one etc. It makes them one dimensional.

----------


## Restingvoice

Speaking of that, a bit of report. How Dick and the others being reduced to trope is one of the main reason why some people at the time hate Grayson because they saw him being reduced to the nice sexy one, and right now they're feeling justified as say I Told You So as other people starting to realize that King writes them badly or just catering to Tumblr fandom.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Speaking of that, a bit of report. How Dick and the others being reduced to trope is one of the main reason why some people at the time hate Grayson because they saw him being reduced to the nice sexy one, and right now they're feeling justified as say I Told You So as other people starting to realize that King writes them badly or just catering to Tumblr fandom.


Oh yeah, they loveley people  that would lost their collective control every time a joke was made in Grayson, that would harass King and Seeley in twitter because they felt triggered with every issue, the ones that wouldn't shut up about the good old days of Dixon run?

Pfff that some people aren't never going to be happy, they are allergic to anything remotelly new....and they love the characters pigeonholed, as long as they choose the boxes

----------


## Badou

Remember that Batman and Robin issue by Tomasi in the New 52 where Damian was going around and challenging the Robins and trying to take a trophy from them to show how he was "the" Robin? Then at the end of the arc he got to Dick and Dick just tossed him one of his weapons because he didn't care at all about it? Then the two drove off in the Batman mobile together. That is how Dick should feel about the Robin legacy. He doesn't care. It isn't important to him or how the other Robins fit into the Batman family. He created Robin and moved on from it. So King trying to have Dick act like he is concerned about how he fits in compared to the other Robins I think really misunderstand the character. 

Sure, you could say Jason, Tim and Damian have some hangups about it but that doesn't make them these very basic tropes. Dick's hangups would be more with Bruce and Batman if you want to try and give him some.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, insecurities as it pertains to Bruce would make more sense. I get what King was doing, but like I said thought it was rather boring. In general Robin uniformity and generalizations bores me.

----------


## Pohzee

Bruce is Batman. Damian is Robin. They're the Dynamic Duo.

But what the hell am I?

----------


## Badou

I think a better one would have been.

"I saw my parents killed in front of me too, but I don't dwell on their deaths much anymore.

Does that make me a bad son?"

----------


## Godlike13

How about "Sometimes I miss being Robin".

----------


## Badou

I don't know if he misses being Robin. More he would just miss being Batman's partner maybe?

----------


## Godlike13

The simplicity and security. I was going for a superhero spin on sometimes I wish I could be a kid again.

----------


## Badou

What about "Sometimes I miss my mullet." lol

----------


## Arsenal

“Everybody tells me Discowing was a mistake. Sometimes I think they’re just jealous they couldn’t pull it off”

----------


## Pohzee

"Sometimes I think I was more relevant back when I was in high school." or wearing pixie boots.

----------


## Godlike13

"My mother was a redhead"

----------


## Pohzee

"I'm kinda weirded out that Bruce keeps stocking up on mini-me's. Or am I the first of his mini-Bruces?"

----------


## BloodOps

Ugh those Robin scenes in HiC were so terrible.

How is this the same King that helped with Grayson? His Batman is a disaster (Bat and Cat ugh) and his HiC was even worse, I'm not sure if I'll be reading any of his stuff anytime soon. 

Hoping for a solid Dick Grayson appearance in Batman: Last Knight on Earth.

----------


## Aahz

> How is this the same King that helped with Grayson?


I think that Seeley made the differnce.
And if I compare their work post Grayson, Seeley stuff (Nightwing and the Wedding Tie ins) has for me been much more enjoyable than Kings Batman.

----------


## Rac7d*

To all the Dick Gryason know it all try adding some funfacts here

Contribute Your Nightwing Fun Facts to DC Universe's Encyclopedia
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/cont...-encyclopedia/

----------


## Robanker

> Ugh those Robin scenes in HiC were so terrible.
> 
> How is this the same King that helped with Grayson? His Batman is a disaster (Bat and Cat ugh) and his HiC was even worse, I'm not sure if I'll be reading any of his stuff anytime soon. 
> 
> Hoping for a solid Dick Grayson appearance in Batman: Last Knight on Earth.


I wish I could hate King but I don't sense malicious intent from him specifically. He has some awful execution in my opinion, but he can really dial in on some great stuff occasionally.

I think Seeley was a great partner to help refine his ideas and get better material out of him. Perhaps with a stronger editor that the upper brass actually empowers over King, he can really shine. 

With proper support, you get Grayson. Else it's Heroes in Crisis. He's a monkey's paw half the time, so who knows.

I really don't hold any personal grudge against him despite how he's attacked two of my favorite characters (Dick, Wally). I just really hope he recognizes the holes in his game and works on shoring them up.

----------


## nhienphan2808

if Dick's insecurities were "i seem to remember being loved and respected by Bruce, when i had a say in passing down MY legacy, when i have friends and a team and a city of my own, tim and Damian were still my brothers. Why did it get worse as time went by, first i was fired, then deem "useless" as Robin and even Nightwing and Bruce was a asshole and my brothers were fascists and my friends were..not...I cant be over 25 yet why am i remember a, three other lives that spanned 80 years?" it would have been worth a trauma. It would have been the only way the Ric and "trying to forget" thing makes an ounce of sense and worth to read too.

----------


## Claude

Bendis' recent tweet that "he can't spoil anything", but that Event Leviathan will feature all characters "that you'd think would be involved in this story" is probably as close to confirmation of Dick showing up as we can get.

----------


## Pohzee

> Bendis' recent tweet that "he can't spoil anything", but that Event Leviathan will feature all characters "that you'd think would be involved in this story" is probably as close to confirmation of Dick showing up as we can get.


No he actually said that Dick would be in the event. Which to me seems to be a bit closer.
https://twitter.com/brianmbendis/sta...465923584?s=21




> Leviathan without Dick Grayson...  it's sad.
> 			
> 		
> 
>  No one said anything about no dick Grayson, we just that no dick Grayson in action comics 1011 #DCEVENTLEVIATHAN #whoisleviathan


So I guess we DO get to look forward to Ric Grayson showing up. Probably so he can say he doesn't want to get involved for one panel.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I wish I could hate King but I don't sense malicious intent from him specifically. He has some awful execution in my opinion, but he can really dial in on some great stuff occasionally.
> 
> I think Seeley was a great partner to help refine his ideas and get better material out of him. Perhaps with a stronger editor that the upper brass actually empowers over King, he can really shine. 
> 
> With proper support, you get Grayson. Else it's Heroes in Crisis. He's a monkey's paw half the time, so who knows.
> 
> I really don't hold any personal grudge against him despite how he's attacked two of my favorite characters (Dick, Wally). I just really hope he recognizes the holes in his game and works on shoring them up.


Yeah, Seeley helped defined Dick for King, because at first, he wanted to make a really dark and angsty story about Dick's experience in Spyral until Seeley reminds him that Dick is a more positive force.

So even that early on, King was a plot first kinda guy who's okay with ignoring established characterization in order to tell what he wants

----------


## Konja7

Tom King speaks a little about Dick in this interview:

https://www.cbr.com/tom-king-promise...oes-in-crisis/

----------


## Pohzee

> Tom King speaks a little about Dick in this interview:
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/tom-king-promise...oes-in-crisis/


That's very odd for two reasons. One: he talks a lot about Dick for an interview about the finale to a story he's not involved in. Two: that is nearly verbatim what was quoted in another interview about Batman.

Edit: Since they're both from CBR its likely that the quote is from the same interview that covered both, and it was simply repeated info. Though now I'm curious as to which it was actually in reference to.

----------


## Rac7d*

Does Grayson's lineage as a talon retcon his Romanian ancestry?

----------


## OWL45

> Does Grayson's lineage as a talon retcon his Romanian ancestry?


No I believe the Romani is his mothers side of the family and his fathers side is American from Gotham where the Talon/COO lineage comes from.

----------


## Badou

> Does Grayson's lineage as a talon retcon his Romanian ancestry?


There have only been two stories to reference his Romani heritage in the character's history. When it was created in Devin Grayson's run and then in Seeley's run. I believe in Devin Grayson's run he was Romani on his dad's side, but then that wouldn't work because of the Owls and Talon New 52 story. So Seeley retconned it with him being part Romani on his mom's side. I think that is what happened.

----------


## Pohzee

> Does Grayson's lineage as a talon retcon his Romanian ancestry?


Yes, but not if you squint. John was parent of Romani lineage originally, but the CoO story retconned him into descent from Gotham. Seeley retconned it so that it was Dick's mother of Romani heritage instead. Although I believe he said that it was still open that John could still have some Romani in him somewhere.

Actually in the Grayson secret origin issue, they refer to him as Giovanni "John" Grayson, so he likely has it from both sides now.

----------


## byrd156

> Yes, but not if you squint. John was parent of Romani lineage originally, but the CoO story retconned him into descent from Gotham. Seeley retconned it so that it was Dick's mother of Romani heritage instead. Although I believe he said that it was still open that John could still have some Romani in him somewhere.
> 
> Actually in the Grayson secret origin issue, they refer to him as Giovanni "John" Grayson, so he likely has it from both sides now.


Does it really matter? Both the Talon and Romani stuff has fallen by the wayside.

----------


## Pohzee

> Does it really matter? Both the Talon and Romani stuff has fallen by the wayside.


The Court will be in Nightwing within the next two months, and his most notable story as Nightwing in the past decade- possibly ever- heavily relies on his Romani heritage. Neither are by the wayside if you ask me.

Actually, his connection to the Court which is itself an extension of his relation to Cobb is also important to Better than Batman too.

----------


## byrd156

> The Court will be in Nightwing within the next two months, and his most notable story as Nightwing in the past decade- possibly ever- heavily relies on his Romani heritage. Neither are by the wayside if you ask me.
> 
> Actually, his connection to the Court which is itself an extension of his relation to Cobb is also important to Better than Batman too.


The court is only just now coming back after how long? Which story relies so heavily on that heritage? Better than Batman? If anything it relies more-so on the fact that Raptor was in love with his mother, the Romani part could be dropped and still make it the same story. Circus folk aren't exactly rich so Raptor's hatred for people like Bruce still works too.

When was the last time Cobb was around with Dick? I feel like the Court was a big thing DC wanted to make happen at the start of the New 52 and animated movies. Outside of that and Batman they don't feel like a big deal.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The court is only just now coming back after how long? Which story relies so heavily on that heritage? Better than Batman? If anything it relies more-so on the fact that Raptor was in love with his mother, the Romani part could be dropped and still make it the same story. Circus folk aren't exactly rich so Raptor's hatred for people like Bruce still works too.
> 
> When was the last time Cobb was around with Dick? I feel like the Court was a big thing DC wanted to make happen at the start of the New 52 and animated movies. Outside of that and Batman they don't feel like a big deal.


It will be  a breath of fresh air after this this crap
I was just curious cuz some people really thin dick is a victim of whitewashing

----------


## Pohzee

Sotomayor still colored him white as snow during BtB.

And Seeley best described him as a "mutt."

----------


## Godlike13

> The court is only just now coming back after how long? Which story relies so heavily on that heritage? Better than Batman? If anything it relies more-so on the fact that Raptor was in love with his mother, the Romani part could be dropped and still make it the same story. Circus folk aren't exactly rich so Raptor's hatred for people like Bruce still works too.
> 
> When was the last time Cobb was around with Dick? I feel like the Court was a big thing DC wanted to make happen at the start of the New 52 and animated movies. Outside of that and Batman they don't feel like a big deal.


That’s not true, Raptor’s whole issue with Dick is that he is lost to his heritage. So no it couldn’t be dropped and still make for the same story. Raptor would need new motivation then if the Romani part was dropped. Which would be a shame, cause I think Seeley was quite clever to take this Romani aspect that was introduced, yet has no real visual or character influence on the character, and use in a way that explains why that is.

----------


## byrd156

> It will be  a breath of fresh air after this this crap
> I was just curious cuz some people really thin dick is a victim of whitewashing


Dick has always been white, anyone who says he's been whitewashed is one of those tumblr obsessed headcanon people. Dick to them is a hot dude with a nice ass who always eats cereal and just loves his little bros. 

Again having some Romani blood has done nothing for him so far, if they are going to bring it up actually use it. I personally always wanted to see the English side of him explored more, it would give him even more of a connection with Alfred and Knight & Squire. I'm not saying get rid of it or ignore it, I just find it annoying when it's brought up as such an integral part of the character when that's never really been the case outside of Devin Grayson and the one Seeley arc. (And one mention in the Grayson annual)

----------


## Pohzee

I like Seeley's take where he seems not to wrapped up in his own sense of ethnic identity and doesn't give it much thought or influence.

I think its pretty fitting to the character.

----------


## byrd156

> That’s not true, Raptor’s whole issue with Dick is that he is lost to his heritage. So no it couldn’t be dropped and still make for the same story. Raptor would need new motivation then if the Romani part was dropped.


Like I said in my post the circus background itself with Raptor still works whether Dick's Romani or not. Raptor's main issues were wealth and a sense that Dick abandoned the people that loved him ie. the circus. They weren't exactly rich in money but they were in family, Raptor seeing Dick (also as a representation of Mary) leave the circus plus with Mary's death is enough to send him over the edge. I'm rereading Better Than Batman and rise of Raptor right now to make sure I know what I'm talking about. Being Romani is more important for Raptor than it is for Dick. Raptor has the Romani legend name for his gauntlet Suyolak, the hatred for the rich, and the love for the forgotten people like refugees. Raptor has a whole modern Robin Hood vibe going on and hating capitalism and branding that he brings up all the time. I feel like he and Green Arrow would make for an interesting team-up.

Dick's mother is what's important for Raptor not Dick being Romani. Raptor is basically Snape from Harry Potter, he loved the mom who he never got to be with and died. The son is basically a representation of the love and son he'll never have, so he takes out his frustrations by trying to care for and teach that son. Again I'm not against the idea of Dick having Romani blood or even the elements that are used in Better than Batman and Rise of Raptor but they aren't essential to Dick. These stories can still be very much the same, I really enjoy the use and references to the circus in these arcs. I'm glad we are talking about these because reading these again were such a joy to read.

----------


## Badou

> Thats not true, Raptors whole issue with Dick is that he is lost to his heritage. So no it couldnt be dropped and still make for the same story. Raptor would need new motivation then if the Romani part was dropped. Which would be a shame, cause I think Seeley was quite clever to take this Romani aspect that was introduced, yet has no real visual or character influence on the character, and use in a way that explains why that is.


I have to agree with byrd. Raptor's main conflict was with Dick's mother. He was in love with her and felt he should have been the one to take in Dick after his parents died, not the super rich Bruce Wayne. The Romani stuff adds some other layers but the core story still works without the Romani aspects. The class seperation, the Robin Hood stuff, and the core identity of both being from the circus and him feeling like Dick abandoned that life all still work without the Romani parts.

----------


## byrd156

> I have to agree with byrd. Raptor's main conflict was with Dick's mother. He was in love with her and felt he should have been the one to take in Dick after his parents died, not the super rich Bruce Wayne. The Romani stuff adds some other layers but the core story still works without the Romani aspects. The class seperation, the Robin Hood stuff, and the core identity of both being from the circus and him feeling like Dick abandoned that life all still work without the Romani parts.


Thank you, you simplified that a whole hell of a lot better than I did.

Like I keep saying I'm fine with the Romani stuff and I appreciate what Seeley did with it, it just needs more effort and more stories to be done with it before it earns this idea that it's an important part of Dick's character.

----------


## Godlike13

Fair enough.

----------


## Badou

> Thank you, you simplified that a whole hell of a lot better than I did.
> 
> Like I keep saying I'm fine with the Romani stuff and I appreciate what Seeley did with it, it just needs more effort and more stories to be done with it before it earns this idea that it's an important part of Dick's character.


I feel the same. I don't mind the Romani addition, but it should never be a major trait of the character. It should never be something Dick identifies as or hold as some important aspect to his upbringing. That would feel so fake to me. If it gets retconned again I don't really care because it is low on the list of things that define his history in my opinion. Maybe with time it will become more important but right now I'm kind of indifferent towards it as long as it doesn't feel super invasive.

----------


## byrd156

> I feel the same. I don't mind the Romani addition, but it should never be a major trait of the character. It should never be something Dick identifies as or hold as some important aspect to his upbringing. That would feel so fake to me. If it gets retconned again I don't really care because it is low on the list of things that define his history in my opinion. Maybe with time it will become more important but right now I'm kind of indifferent towards it as long as it doesn't feel super invasive.


Dick having English in him probably on his dad's side now was something I always wanted to see. Dick exploring England with castles and medieval themes and stuff seems perfect. Tie it back in with Robin Hood, his inspiration, that's something that has been there enough to warrant some kind of story. I also really want to see Knight and Squire again, they really fit well with Dick.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Also in his initial creation Dick was a representation of the initial target market of comic books which were 8 to 15 Y/O white kids so him being Romani would have never been applied and the retcon was used by Devin Grayson more to sexualize Nightwing rather than make him a representation of Romani culture. Using the Circus is stereotypical and he gets adopted by a White east USA Rich Heir Of Old Money. Dick’s story is too old and unique to be used as a representation of Romani people and their struggles because he has lived a majority of his life with the highest privilege and Haly’s Circus is an American Circus. New Characters would be better because you can have a origin and life that truly represents a minority group like Jessica Cruz, Miles Morales, Kamala etc.

----------


## Aahz

The Romani Part was imo added way to late to the character to ever really matter.

By the time it was mentioned the first time  Dick was allready around for 60 years full of stories.

----------


## byrd156

> The Romani Part was imo added way to late to the character to ever really matter.
> 
> By the time it was mentioned the first time  Dick was allready around for 60 years full of stories.


Yeah I think Seeley squeezed as much as he could out of it with Better Than Batman and Rise of Raptor. The idea of Dick never having that culture made for a good story but that's as far as you can really go with it. Everyone else that Dick could explore and discover it for the first time is already dead or tried to manipulate him. I think having Raptor as a villain with that connection is as good as it'll get.

Also go reread those stories right now and ignore this Ric garbage, it was very refreshing and super quality stuff.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes, but not if you squint. John was parent of Romani lineage originally, but the CoO story retconned him into descent from Gotham. Seeley retconned it so that it was Dick's mother of Romani heritage instead. Although I believe he said that it was still open that John could still have some Romani in him somewhere.
> 
> Actually in the Grayson secret origin issue, they refer to him as Giovanni "John" Grayson, so he likely has it from both sides now.


I didn't know Devin made him Romani from his dad's side. I thought John Giovanni was the first time it's mentioned, so maybe the Grayson Secret Origin was their attempt to bring it back, but then they realized it contradicts Court of Owls so Seeley made it his mother.

Honestly, before Mary became Marie, I just thought he got it from his grandmother's side

Great Grandfater William Cobb and Grandfather The First Gray Son are from Gotham
John Giovanni Grayson the father got his name from somewhere who is not the great grandfather and grandfather
So it must be the grandmother

No contradiction

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I always kinda liked that Dick's racial identity is kind of hard to place now since Dick himself has never cared lol.

His dad's name is Giovanni, even though his own grandfather and grandmother were English and from Gotham. On the other hand, Seeley actually fleshed out Mary out and made her out to be the more interesting parent, and her background is even more mysterious beyond her being from France and having Romani blood.

Raptor is easily my favourite Nightwing villain at this point, and one of the few important enough to bring to other media (for example, nobody is going to care about Torque or Shrike or something in 2019), which is why the Romani thing matters imo. It makes Raptor into a more interesting character, it develops Mary as Marie a bit, and takes away focus from the Owls stuff for Dick. One of my favourite things about the start of the Rebirth run was how we were being led to believe that the Owls would be integral again to Dick, when really it turned out Dick's circus background and Mary were the most important to the story.

It shouldn't be counted as a major element of Dick's character of course, but I think it's vital to introducing Raptor.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Excuse the double post, but this kinda deserves it: 
the-lost-carnival-1093-cover-1.jpg

Could be great. The cover certainly looks great.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.cbr.com/report-matt-reev...-batman-robin/

So, if it’s true, can we at least except, that it will be Dick Grayson version of Robin (since Batman is now in his mid-30’s now again) and not any of other 3? Because if so, then Nightwing movie will never happen in the next decade. And while it’s a loss in my eyes for the character to be reduced from lead to secondary, at the same time I’m actually excited to see Dick to get a second chance to be a Robin on the big screen again after so many years.

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://www.cbr.com/report-matt-reev...-batman-robin/
> 
> So, if its true, can we at least except, that it will be Dick Grayson version of Robin (since Batman is now in his mid-30s now again) and not any of other 3? Because if so, then Nightwing movie will never happen in the next decade. And while its a loss in my eyes for the character to be reduced from lead to secondary, at the same time Im actually excited to see Dick to get a second chance to be a Robin on the big screen again after so many years.


Unless the skip dick to Jason so a under the red hood storyline can happen

Or they want to to league of Assassin storyline and skip to Damian or they want to be woke and give Batman a daughter and go with Stephanie or Carrie 

We now have  left a less then 20% chance of dick. This isnt the comics where Batman can be 30 forever and we ignore it  and time in general

----------


## byrd156

> Excuse the double post, but this kinda deserves it: 
> the-lost-carnival-1093-cover-1.jpg
> 
> Could be great. The cover certainly looks great.


Is there any info attached to this?

----------


## Ascended

> https://www.cbr.com/report-matt-reev...-batman-robin/
> 
> So, if its true, can we at least except, that it will be Dick Grayson version of Robin (since Batman is now in his mid-30s now again) and not any of other 3? Because if so, then Nightwing movie will never happen in the next decade. And while its a loss in my eyes for the character to be reduced from lead to secondary, at the same time Im actually excited to see Dick to get a second chance to be a Robin on the big screen again after so many years.


Not that I have much faith a Nightwing movie is actually going to happen in the first place, but......

Nothing prevents WB from making a Nightwing film. If Batman is in his 30's again, then they either make Dick and Bruce much closer in age (going for a brother dynamic rather than father-son) or they make Nightwing an "Elseworlds" type movie not connected to the main continuity of the DCEU, just like that Joker film. Or they go young with Dick and build the character around the age of 18 or so, rather than the mid-20's. If the new Bat is 30-35 and Dick is only 18-20, that still provides a fairly big age difference. 

A Nightwing movie *could* still happen. But I've never seen anything that makes me think the studio is really interested in doing it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Excuse the double post, but this kinda deserves it: 
> the-lost-carnival-1093-cover-1.jpg
> 
> Could be great. The cover certainly looks great.


what is this?

----------


## Restingvoice

One of the DC Ink YA graphic novels

----------


## nightbird

> Not that I have much faith a Nightwing movie is actually going to happen in the first place, but......
> 
> Nothing prevents WB from making a Nightwing film. If Batman is in his 30's again, then they either make Dick and Bruce much closer in age (going for a brother dynamic rather than father-son) or they make Nightwing an "Elseworlds" type movie not connected to the main continuity of the DCEU, just like that Joker film. Or they go young with Dick and build the character around the age of 18 or so, rather than the mid-20's. If the new Bat is 30-35 and Dick is only 18-20, that still provides a fairly big age difference. 
> 
> A Nightwing movie *could* still happen. But I've never seen anything that makes me think the studio is really interested in doing it.


I’m not sure I want a 18-20 years old Robin)) Even if they try to play Bruce and Dick as brothers (I don’t like it), instead of father and son, it’s still a completely different dynamic. 18-20 old is an adult guy. Does he really need a mentor at that age? Otherwise Bruce and Dick should already work together for more than 5 years. 
And while, yes, it’s true, that DC/WB could’ve made Nightwing movie no matter what, if they wanted, I think audience actually still wants to see all movies mostly in continuity. Seeing how Marvel tried to play family angle in the last Avengers movies, made me a bit frustrated with DC/WB, because they actually the ones who could organically shows us how much family means. Their whole franchise build on that theme and they’re hiding it from the mass audience.  
The next thing is, we hardly see secondary characters in one franchise ever getting their spin-off movies. I feel like if Dick debuts as Robin he could stuck in Batman franchise forever even if he transforms to be a Nightwing in the future. At this point, honestly I don’t know what I want from this franchise and DC, I guess I just want them to do justice to Dick Grayson as a character no matter what. I mean a lot of non-Batman and DC fans know Batman’s story, but not a lot of them even know who Robin, Dick Grayson and Nightwing is. Which is shame considering that he was created only a year after Batman debuted.

----------


## nightbird

> Unless the skip dick to Jason so a under the red hood storyline can happen
> 
> Or they want to to league of Assassin storyline and skip to Damian or they want to be woke and give Batman a daughter and go with Stephanie or Carrie 
> 
> We now have  left a less then 20% chance of dick. This isn’t the comics where Batman can be 30 forever and we ignore it  and time in general


As much as I want Nightwing movie to happen, it would be such a let down if they skip Dick’s years as Robin. Am I too greedy? lol

----------


## Pohzee

The Lost Carnival cover looks pretty cool. How was Moreci's issue of Nightwing though?

----------


## Robanker

> As much as I want Nightwing movie to happen, it would be such a let down if they skip Dicks years as Robin. Am I too greedy? lol


Audiences accepted Wolverine in three X-Men movies, all of which taking place at different times in his life across multiple decades and they even used the same actor. They can have two movies with Dick Grayson set across different times with two actors. As long as they're good, I don't think audiences will care much.

We just went from the '90s to 2019 in the course of a month with respect to Captain Marvel.

Now will WB make a Nightwing movie and have Robin in The Batman? Yeah I dunno about that. Hopefully I'm wrong, both happen and are great, but let's see how Birds of Prey and Joker do first.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The Lost Carnival cover looks pretty cool. How was Moreci's issue of Nightwing though?


He wrote the one with Roy Harper and Damian

----------


## Rac7d*

> I’m not sure I want a 18-20 years old Robin)) Even if they try to play Bruce and Dick as brothers (I don’t like it), instead of father and son, it’s still a completely different dynamic. 18-20 old is an adult guy. Does he really need a mentor at that age? Otherwise Bruce and Dick should already work together for more than 5 years. 
> And while, yes, it’s true, that DC/WB could’ve made Nightwing movie no matter what, if they wanted, I think audience actually still wants to see all movies mostly in continuity. Seeing how Marvel tried to play family angle in the last Avengers movies, made me a bit frustrated with DC/WB, because they actually the ones who could organically shows us how much family means. Their whole franchise build on that theme and they’re hiding it from the mass audience.  
> The next thing is, we hardly see secondary characters in one franchise ever getting their spin-off movies. I feel like if Dick debuts as Robin he could stuck in Batman franchise forever even if he transforms to be a Nightwing in the future. At this point, honestly I don’t know what I want from this franchise and DC, I guess I just want them to do justice to Dick Grayson as a character no matter what. I mean a lot of non-Batman and DC fans know Batman’s story, but not a lot of them even know who Robin, Dick Grayson and Nightwing is. Which is shame considering that he was created only a year after Batman debuted.


its the dynamic that DC been selling since new 52 hell its even in Batman and Robin movie

----------


## Pohzee

> He wrote the one with Roy Harper and Damian


Yeah I had long since dropped off the title. How was it? The preview seemed a bit iffy to me.

----------


## Frontier

Y'know, I remember a rumor that Reeves was looking to do the most comic-accurate Batman movie yet, so I wonder if that means Batman with a full-fledged Robin? 

Although I'm also reminded of that Elseworlds story where Dick was a private detective. 



> Yeah I had long since dropped off the title. How was it? The preview seemed a bit iffy to me.


I thought it was a fun one-off. Everybody felt relatively in-character and Dick came off pretty well. 

It'll be interesting to see what they do for the graphic novel since it seems like a prequel focusing on Dick's circus life which we don't really see focused on much beyond smaller flashbacks. 

Is the woman on the cover Mary? I wonder if there's significance to her being on it and not her and John Grayson. I wonder if the story will be Dick still being with the circus even after his parents died?

----------


## BloodOps

> He wrote the one with Roy Harper and Damian


Which has been one of the better issues since Seeley left.

Can we just get Seeley back for goodness sake.

----------


## Pohzee

Batman working with a full-fledged Robin? That's not comics accurate as of now. Unfortunately.

----------


## Frontier

> Which has been one of the better issues since Seeley left.
> 
> Can we just get Seeley back for goodness sake.


I think it would take a lot to get Seeley to come back after he became kind of disillusioned on the title. 

With how DC Editorial handles the book it doesn't seem like something that most writers would willingly jump at unless they were DC pinch-hitters. 



> Batman working with a full-fledged Robin? That's not comics accurate as of now. Unfortunately.


If it was an early Batman in his prime it would be, though  :Smile: .

----------


## Pohzee

I'd sooner buy an issue of Ric than read about the Runoffs.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd sooner buy an issue of Ric than read about the Runoffs.


That kind of surprises me  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## byrd156

> Y'know, I remember a rumor that Reeves was looking to do the most comic-accurate Batman movie yet, so I wonder if that means Batman with a full-fledged Robin?


We'll get a live action Robin, I can feel it. It's one of the few things that DC can do to not only differentiate themselves from Marvel but also pull people back in for their movies.

I've seen a lot of people on Twitter really excited at the idea for Batman and Robin.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah I had long since dropped off the title. How was it? The preview seemed a bit iffy to me.


It's a fun one. The premise is Dick was about to have a day off but Roy and Damian dragged him into fighting League of Assassins. Hijinks ensue. Roy and Damian pretty much fight on who's the most immature one and Dick has to be the dad.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Y'know, I remember a rumor that Reeves was looking to do the most comic-accurate Batman movie yet, so I wonder if that means Batman with a full-fledged Robin? 
> 
> Although I'm also reminded of that Elseworlds story where Dick was a private detective. 
> 
> I thought it was a fun one-off. Everybody felt relatively in-character and Dick came off pretty well. 
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what they do for the graphic novel since it seems like a prequel focusing on Dick's circus life which we don't really see focused on much beyond smaller flashbacks. 
> 
> Is the woman on the cover Mary? I wonder if there's significance to her being on it and not her and John Grayson. I wonder if the story will be Dick still being with the circus even after his parents died?


She's wearing a circus costume with a typical Romani headband so yeah I think it's Mary

----------


## Godlike13

> I'd sooner buy an issue of Ric than read about the Runoffs.


LoL, I still just want that stupid Karate Cowboy to die 100 deaths. Wanted it since I was 13.

----------


## nightbird

> its the dynamic that DC been selling since new 52 hell its even in Batman and Robin movie


For comics its not true anymore as much as its was never true for movies.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The Lost Carnival cover looks pretty cool. How was Moreci's issue of Nightwing though?


Pretty great imo, but his Roy was very out of character for where he was in Rebirth continuity, but in line with a younger more Lobdell-y one so I didn't enjoy it as much as I would've liked. His Dick was pretty fun tho lol. He loves Dick Grayson though, so there's that as well. Sounds like some people behind the scenes at DC were excited for this book too (though I'm sure people like Didio weren't exactly ecstatic about the book).




> Is there any info attached to this?


No official solicit or synopsis exists, but Moreci once tweeted it'd be a story set at Haly's Circus and explore a new world, new characters, and a new love interest. I think we're going to be reading a young teen Dick here just like the other DC Ink books, and it's either a universe where Dick never becomes Robin or it's a pre-Robin story. Milledge is a pretty great artist from what I can tell, so it should turn out pretty good imo. I'm pretty excited to read a Dick Grayson story with no Batman baggage.




> https://www.cbr.com/report-matt-reev...-batman-robin/
> 
> So, if it’s true, can we at least except, that it will be Dick Grayson version of Robin (since Batman is now in his mid-30’s now again) and not any of other 3? Because if so, then Nightwing movie will never happen in the next decade. And while it’s a loss in my eyes for the character to be reduced from lead to secondary, at the same time I’m actually excited to see Dick to get a second chance to be a Robin on the big screen again after so many years.


If we get a different Robin set so early in his career (and Dick doesn't turn up as a very young Nightwing or something to explain it) then I'm not turning up to see the movie lol. It might turn out a little detrimental to the Nightwing IP to have Dick showing up as Robin on the big screen again, but as a Dick Grayson fan I'd much rather just get as much good Grayson content than get nothing at all and see the Nightwing IP flounder regardless. Dick as Robin is still my favourite Robin, so I'd definitely be excited for this (I mean, I'm just imagining this movie being an adaptation of Dark Victory at this point).

----------


## Frontier

> If we get a different Robin set so early in his career (and Dick doesn't turn up as a very young Nightwing or something to explain it) then I'm not turning up to see the movie lol. It might turn out a little detrimental to the Nightwing IP to have Dick showing up as Robin on the big screen again, but as a Dick Grayson fan I'd much rather just get as much good Grayson content than get nothing at all and see the Nightwing IP flounder regardless. Dick as Robin is still my favourite Robin, so I'd definitely be excited for this (I mean, I'm just imagining this movie being an adaptation of Dark Victory at this point).


If we get Robin this early (Pattinson is contracted for 3 movies) we might see a Nightwing transition in at least the second or third movie.

----------


## nightbird

I dunno why DC never actually tried to build whole Batverse by now. Considering how rich Bat’s history and mythology they could easily find a material for 10 movies just about him. And we also have bunch of characters that could easily support one or two spin-offs. 

I think I would be satisfied if for the next decade they promote Dick as Robin in movies and Nightwing in Titans. I don’t want them to rush his transition from Robin to Nightwing in just one or two movies.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d21/1906/92/9ae550bc4d5e.jpg[/IMG]

https://wwprice1.tumblr.com/post/185...by-yancy-labat

[IMG]https://c.***********/c36/1906/25/00f281a92047.jpg[/IMG]

https://iconuk01.tumblr.com/post/185...bin-by-jun-kim

----------


## Restingvoice

> I dunno why DC never actually tried to build whole Batverse by now. Considering how rich Bat’s history and mythology they could easily find a material for 10 movies just about him. And we also have bunch of characters that could easily support one or two spin-offs.


They did once in the past, but they give it to Schumacher, which made them cancel everything. 

We're also talking about the same company who blame the lack of female superhero movie to female characters instead of bad writing. The same concept applies to Batfam. When they can get a lot of money by doing Batman solo and the one time they do Batfam movie they flop, they blame it on the Batfam.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> I'd sooner buy an issue of Ric than read about the Runoffs.


I'm with you there. The second I saw them, I knew they weren't going to be part of NW's history post Seeley.  I still wish Humphries and Chang were on NW. That arc was good and it looked like they had strong plans for the character

----------


## dietrich

Dick Grayson by Tim Sale @ MegaCon

----------


## nightbird

> They did once in the past, but they give it to Schumacher, which made them cancel everything. 
> 
> We're also talking about the same company who blame the lack of female superhero movie to female characters instead of bad writing. The same concept applies to Batfam. When they can get a lot of money by doing Batman solo and the one time they do Batfam movie they flop, they blame it on the Batfam.


I thought why they never tried again with Robin was because Nolan strongly disliked character.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I thought why they never tried again with Robin was because Nolan strongly disliked character.


I don't know that, but people in charge not liking Robin isn't surprising. Robin's been a symbol of camp that people who like Batman as a serious figure tend to avoid.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I don't know that, but people in charge not liking Robin isn't surprising. Robin's been a symbol of camp that people who like Batman as a serious figure tend to avoid.


Batman is super serious?

----------


## nightbird

> I don't know that, but people in charge not liking Robin isn't surprising. Robin's been a symbol of camp that people who like Batman as a serious figure tend to avoid.


If I remember correctly somewhere between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises both Nolan and Bale allegedly  referred to an idea of including Robin into franchise as “stupid”. That’s why we ended up with that Blake guy instead of Dick, Jason or Tim.

----------


## lilyrose

People can't figure out how to do him right in live-action. 

I don't think it's that difficult. They're supposed to have a father-son relationship, he's essentially a boy he adopted. The awkward part in translating to live action is the concept of a grown man taking his adopted son out at night to fight violent criminals alongside him. Especially when Robin is 9 or 10 years old, I mean that really constitutes child abuse.

I think the way to do it is to go ahead and have Bruce adopt Dick as a child, but then Dick doesn't actually put on the cape and fight with him until he's 18. So there's at least the idea that Bruce doesn't want him to do it but can only stop him when he's underage. When he's legal and insisting on doing it anyway, you can have Bruce say well, if you're going to do this anyway, then I'll train you and show you the best way to do it, etc.

Otherwise, having a serious Batman movie where he's purposely endangering a child by taking him out to get beat up by criminals is always going to be problematic onscreen, I think.

----------


## Blue22

> Otherwise, having a serious Batman movie where he's purposely endangering a child by taking him out to get beat up by criminals is always going to be problematic onscreen, I think.


I don't know. Nobody said shit about MCU Tony Stark not only allowing the 15 year old Peter Parker to operate as Spiderman by himself, but gave him most of his tech, essentially allowing him to go out and endanger his life every night. Sure Peter is older than Dick as Robin would be, but he's still a kid. At least Bruce supervises his Robins xD

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't know. Nobody said shit about MCU Tony Stark not only allowing the 15 year old Peter Parker to operate as Spiderman by himself, but gave him most of his tech, essentially allowing him to go out and endanger his life every night. Sure Peter is older than Dick as Robin would be, but he's still a kid. At least Bruce supervises his Robins xD


I think that's because he's not as close a father figure compared to Bruce and the Robins. Tony didn't adopt Pete, they don't live together, he's not responsible for his education, lodging and so on... so even though he's being irresponsible and working behind Peter's actual legal guardian, people don't hold him to the same standard. 

Now imagine if Aunt May started outfitting Peter with crimefighting tech and order him to fight crime. People will be on her in an instant. 

Back to topic, I have no problem with 18-year-old Robin. I think the Chris O'Donnell Schumacher version was fine... as a crime fighter... to a point...

They made him too whiny later on which made him sounds immature and annoying, but the origin, how he doesn't warm up to Bruce immediately because he's older and skeptical, but then turn enthusiastic after he discovered the toys and a chance to make something of himself...  there's a sort of balance for his maturity and immaturity... he still has a desire for revenge... and a chance for him to deal with his anger towards Bruce. All of those fit his age and the condition as set by the film.

----------


## lilyrose

> I don't know. Nobody said shit about MCU Tony Stark not only allowing the 15 year old Peter Parker to operate as Spiderman by himself, but gave him most of his tech, essentially allowing him to go out and endanger his life every night. Sure Peter is older than Dick as Robin would be, but he's still a kid. At least Bruce supervises his Robins xD


If Peter was 10, I think him encouraging him to do this _would_ feel a little different, but aside from that there are other differences- 1) Tony isn't Peter's guardian, he isn't literally raising him/legally responsible for him, and 2) Peter actually does have superpowers. Whatever abilities Dick has came from Bruce's training him to do this.

----------


## lilyrose

> I think that's because he's not as close a father figure compared to Bruce and the Robins. Tony didn't adopt Pete, they don't live together, he's not responsible for his education, lodging and so on... so even though he's being irresponsible and working behind Peter's actual legal guardian, people don't hold him to the same standard. 
> 
> Now imagine if Aunt May started outfitting Peter with crimefighting tech and order him to fight crime. People will be on her in an instant. 
> 
> Back to topic, I have no problem with 18-year-old Robin. I think the Chris O'Donnell Schumacher version was fine... as a crime fighter... to a point...


The issue I have with starting him out just meeting Bruce when he's 18, is I don't see how they could develop a real father/son bond that late. I thought that was weird in Batman Forever, that he would just move into his house like that. 

So I still think Bruce should adopt Dick as a kid, so that bond can still develop, but not jump into the crimefighting until he's of age. Bruce can even start training him young as a hobby, but not let him go out there yet. Maybe Dick shouldn't even find out he's Batman until later on, then when he does is when he gets mad, wants to go out on his own and join him, etc.

----------


## Ascended

> People can't figure out how to do him right in live-action. 
> 
> I don't think it's that difficult. They're supposed to have a father-son relationship, he's essentially a boy he adopted. The awkward part in translating to live action is the concept of a grown man taking his adopted son out at night to fight violent criminals alongside him. Especially when Robin is 9 or 10 years old, I mean that really constitutes child abuse.
> 
> I think the way to do it is to go ahead and have Bruce adopt Dick as a child, but then Dick doesn't actually put on the cape and fight with him until he's 18. So there's at least the idea that Bruce doesn't want him to do it but can only stop him when he's underage. When he's legal and insisting on doing it anyway, you can have Bruce say well, if you're going to do this anyway, then I'll train you and show you the best way to do it, etc.
> 
> Otherwise, having a serious Batman movie where he's purposely endangering a child by taking him out to get beat up by criminals is always going to be problematic onscreen, I think.


I think the way you could spin Robin and get away with it, without the "child endangerment" stuff, is to first establish that Dick is not only an incredible athletic prodigy who grew up in a rough and tumble environment (lots of circus folks getting into brawls and bar fights, the kids scrapping in the dirt, etc), but that he's determined to go after his parents' killer with or without Bruce's help. If Bruce brings Dick along to reluctantly supervise and keep an eye on him so he doesn't get killed, that's different from recruiting a child soldier into your war. 

Have Dick slip out of the mansion a few times, looking for Zucco (or whoever is used to kill the Graysons). Show that this kid evaded one of the best home security systems on the east coast. Then have Bruce follow him, just to see what the kid is doing. Show Dick getting into a fight, against adults he's trying to get answers from, and actually handling himself fairly well. Have Dick head right back out the next night despite his bruises, showing the resolve necessary for hero work. And then have Bruce finally accept that Dick is going to do this no matter what Bruce says or does, and Dick's clever and slippery enough he can't be held in the mansion. At that point have Bruce train Dick, just so the kid doesn't get killed. 

Through the course of the narrative, play up the similarities between Dick and Bruce and how Bruce handled things when his parents died, and spin it so that Bruce isn't training Dick so Dick will become just like Bruce....but to ensure he doesn't. Granted, this would require enough screentime to basically make it a Robin origin movie.....but is that a bad thing? 

OR......just begin the movie with Robin already established and competent. Cover his origin in quick dialogue and flashback, and then just move on. I think at this point, audiences are willing to accept crazy and ridiculous things from superhero movies they might not have been able to roll with ten years ago.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

https://www.tfaw.com/Graphic-Novels/...s+TPB___597530

The solicits for the first Ric arc TPB. They really want you to believe its a good book.

----------


## Jackalope89

> https://www.tfaw.com/Graphic-Novels/...s+TPB___597530
> 
> The solicits for the first Ric arc TPB. They really want you to believe its a good book.


Sad thing is, I've seen fanfics that have handled the "Ric" catastrophe better than DC has.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't know. Nobody said shit about MCU Tony Stark not only allowing the 15 year old Peter Parker to operate as Spiderman by himself, but gave him most of his tech, essentially allowing him to go out and endanger his life every night. Sure Peter is older than Dick as Robin would be, but he's still a kid. At least Bruce supervises his Robins xD


Yeah the MCU Spidey Tony relationship is a pretty easy baseboard for DC to jump off of for using sidekicks in their movies.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't know. Nobody said shit about MCU Tony Stark not only allowing the 15 year old Peter Parker to operate as Spiderman by himself, but gave him most of his tech, essentially allowing him to go out and endanger his life every night. Sure Peter is older than Dick as Robin would be, but he's still a kid. At least Bruce supervises his Robins xD


I love how we're acknowledging MCU Spider-Man's teen sidekick status  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Although MCU Peter isn't that far off from how they usually age-up Robin.

----------


## byrd156

> I love how we're acknowledging MCU Spider-Man's teen sidekick status .
> 
> Although MCU Peter isn't that far off from how they usually age-up Robin.


A mentor and pupil is no different than a hero and sidekick. Just that sidekick has gotten to be more of a derogatory word for some reason.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Now imagine if Aunt May started outfitting Peter with crimefighting tech and order him to fight crime. People will be on her in an instant.


Well she knows Peter is Spidey in the MCU now, so it's not really any better. She's knowingly allowing him to be Spider-Man using tech that Tony gifted him. 

I really don't think the mainstream public is going to have a problem with a 15 year old Robin. All they have to do is emphasize how competent and capable Dick is and that whether Bruce wants it or not, Dick is going to go out and do his thing no matter what. I mean, that's literally why Dick becomes Robin. Bruce doesn't just outfit the kid with the costume, all modern interpretations of his origin firmly place Dick becoming Robin after Bruce catches Dick on the hunt for Zucco. If this movie is going all noir, Dark Victory style, they might as well roughly adapt the way Dick's origin works there.

The way I'd write it, I'd say Dick's parents die when he's 11-12, and after spending a short time at an orphanage or two, we see Bruce adopting him. We get the usual story beats, Bruce being absent and Dick growing resentful, Bruce eventually letting him in on the secret, and then Bruce earnestly training Dick.

Then, boom, timeskip. Now you have Robin at 15, a full-fledged hero in his own right, recognized across Gotham, etc. He's spent a couple years learning everything he could from Bruce, and now Bruce trusts him not only with both of their lives, but the lives of Gotham citizens. Batman's still the main character, but now you have Robin around to to do some extra detecting and fighting, since the movie is supposed to have multiple villains (just like Dark Victory).

----------


## Konja7

> Well she knows Peter is Spidey in the MCU now, so it's not really any better. She's knowingly allowing him to be Spider-Man using tech that Tony gifted him. 
> 
> I really don't think the mainstream public is going to have a problem with a 15 year old Robin. All they have to do is emphasize how competent and capable Dick is and that whether Bruce wants it or not, Dick is going to go out and do his thing no matter what. I mean, that's literally why Dick becomes Robin. Bruce doesn't just outfit the kid with the costume, all modern interpretations of his origin firmly place Dick becoming Robin after Bruce catches Dick on the hunt for Zucco. If this movie is going all noir, Dark Victory style, they might as well roughly adapt the way Dick's origin works there.
> 
> The way I'd write it, I'd say Dick's parents die when he's 11-12, and after spending a short time at an orphanage or two, we see Bruce adopting him. We get the usual story beats, Bruce being absent and Dick growing resentful, Bruce eventually letting him in on the secret, and then Bruce earnestly training Dick.
> 
> Then, boom, timeskip. Now you have Robin at 15, a full-fledged hero in his own right, recognized across Gotham, etc. He's spent a couple years learning everything he could from Bruce, and now Bruce trusts him not only with both of their lives, but the lives of Gotham citizens. Batman's still the main character, but now you have Robin around to to do some extra detecting and fighting, since the movie is supposed to have multiple villains (just like Dark Victory).


Honestly, I really doubt they would make a timeskip for Robin origin if they introduce Dick as Robin in the first film. 

If they introduce Dick as Robin in the first film, I see more likely Dick lost his parents when he's 15 and he will start to be Robin at that time too.

A timeskip would be more likely if they introduce Dick in the first film, but he as Robin appear in the sequel.

----------


## InanimateCrbnRod

> Honestly, I really doubt they would make a timeskip for Robin origin if they introduce Dick as Robin in the first film. 
> 
> If they introduce Dick as Robin in the first film, I see more likely Dick lost his parents when he's 15 and he will start to be Robin at that time too.
> 
> A timeskip would be more likely if they introduce Dick in the first film, but he as Robin appear in the sequel.


I think the best way to do it would be to use Dick's origin (at 10-12 years old) as a way to re-tell Bruce's. We've seen the wayne's get gunned down like a dozen times in movies at this point, so if this movie is another origin, telling it through Bruce's empathy for Dick is the best way to do it. Then you have Dick as a small supporting role int he movie, with an end credits scene where he discovers the batcave. Time jump for sequel with 15 yr old Robin.

----------


## byrd156

> Well she knows Peter is Spidey in the MCU now, so it's not really any better. She's knowingly allowing him to be Spider-Man using tech that Tony gifted him. 
> 
> I really don't think the mainstream public is going to have a problem with a 15 year old Robin. All they have to do is emphasize how competent and capable Dick is and that whether Bruce wants it or not, Dick is going to go out and do his thing no matter what. I mean, that's literally why Dick becomes Robin. Bruce doesn't just outfit the kid with the costume, all modern interpretations of his origin firmly place Dick becoming Robin after Bruce catches Dick on the hunt for Zucco. If this movie is going all noir, Dark Victory style, they might as well roughly adapt the way Dick's origin works there.
> 
> The way I'd write it, I'd say Dick's parents die when he's 11-12, and after spending a short time at an orphanage or two, we see Bruce adopting him. We get the usual story beats, Bruce being absent and Dick growing resentful, Bruce eventually letting him in on the secret, and then Bruce earnestly training Dick.
> 
> Then, boom, timeskip. Now you have Robin at 15, a full-fledged hero in his own right, recognized across Gotham, etc. He's spent a couple years learning everything he could from Bruce, and now Bruce trusts him not only with both of their lives, but the lives of Gotham citizens. Batman's still the main character, but now you have Robin around to to do some extra detecting and fighting, since the movie is supposed to have multiple villains (just like Dark Victory).


Dick staying in an orphanage before being adopted by Bruce feels wrong to me.

----------


## nightbird

Kick Ass movies had a little girl beating down adults. As long as they show Robin as capable, badass hero and very helpful ally to Bats mass audience will be fine with a teen superhero. They should also build a real connection between Robin and Batman as family members, not just mentor and mentee.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Kick Ass movies had a little girl beating down adults. As long as they show Robin as capable, badass hero and very helpful ally to Bats mass audience will be fine with a teen superhero. They should also build a real connection between Robin and Batman as family members, not just mentor and mentee.


Do you know why the second kick ass movie flopped

----------


## nightbird

> Do you know why the second kick ass movie flopped


imho, bad script and uninspiring directing.

----------


## Rac7d*

TTGO trying to pair up wondergirl with robin......

----------


## yohyoi

Hmmm... I still can't believe how bad things are now compared to two years ago. DC has destroyed the Titans and Nightwing with no good ending in sight. Hard to be optimistic right now. But it made saving money easier.

----------


## Badou

> TTGO trying to pair up wondergirl with robin......


I don't mind it. Dick and Donna haven't been shown as good friends since 2011 in any form of comics or media. Their relationship isn't what it used to be anymore.

----------


## Godlike13

Not true, the Titans tv showed them as good friends  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Blue22

> I don't mind it. Dick and Donna haven't been shown as good friends since 2011 in any form of comics or media. Their relationship isn't what it used to be anymore.


That and TTGO tends to just do their own thing with these characters (Dick having an unrequited love for Kory. Raven and Trigon having a standard "caring father and rebellious daughter" relationship. Vic being in a steady relationship with Jinx)  Surprisingly enough, their version of Terra is the only one that's closer to her comic portrayal than she was in the 2003 cartoon XD

----------


## Badou

> Not true, the Titans tv showed them as good friends


I completely forgot about that, lol. I take back what I said then, but I am still kind of okay with it in the TTGO show. Robin needs something good to happen to him there.

----------


## byrd156

> I completely forgot about that, lol. I take back what I said then, but I am still kind of okay with it in the TTGO show. Robin needs something good to happen to him there.


Their relationship is pretty much the only good thing other than Hawk & Dove in that show.

----------


## Godlike13

That show is the only good thing Dick has going.

----------


## Blue22

Technically yes, but I've always found TTGO's version of Robin to be one of the most annoying characters in fiction (Yeah. I know him being unlikable is the point. But damn, they were a little too good at making him the worst). That show has some good things going for it (sometimes) but their take on Dick and Gar are the worst.

----------


## Jackalope89

> TTGO trying to pair up wondergirl with robin......


This assumes I watch that abomination. Young Justice Abridged nuked that reality, literally, when they did their "Crises on Two Earths" adaptation.

----------


## Blue22

To be fair, TTGO can actually be pretty funny when they're not going "haha look at the angry fanboys who hate us. Sucks to be you!". Unfortunately that tends to be their goto when they run out of actual jokes. Especially in Control Freak episodes.

----------


## Pohzee

TTGO is at its best when its making fun of fanboys. I don't watch the show but some of those clips have me rolling.

----------


## byrd156

> TTGO trying to pair up wondergirl with robin......


When did that happen?

----------


## BloodOps

No mention of Dick in DCeased#2, safe to assume that Bruce killed or dispatched of Tim and Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't mind it. Dick and Donna haven't been shown as good friends since 2011 in any form of comics or media. Their relationship isn't what it used to be anymore.


she like the only woman who has never flirted with him their entire career
thier just friends

----------


## Rac7d*

> When did that happen?

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t like it. She’s his best bro.

----------


## byrd156

> I don’t like it. She’s his best bro.


I think it would've been great in NTT when Wolfman wanted to use it around the time of Who is Donna Troy otherwise I think they would make a better endgame couple like later in life. Like Robinson's JL would've been a good time, them together leading the JL would be so awesome. I'm not against it but I wouldn't want it now when they were younger or still with the Titans. In my personal experience my most meaningful relationship was with a girl I was extremely good friend's with for years and were best friends for about a decade before we started dating.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## byrd156

> 


Such a perfect way to end that book.

----------


## JoeZ

Hey guys, how old Dick is these days, post Rebirth?
19
20
21
(?)

----------


## Godlike13

21-25
....

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hey guys, how old Dick is these days, post Rebirth?
> 19
> 20
> 21
> (?)


Hes is 24-25  they may say he is 21 but that makes no sense Jason is 21  Tim is 17 and Damian is 13

----------


## Ascended

> Hes is 24-25  they may say he is 21 but that makes no sense Jason is 21  Tim is 17 and Damian is 13


Yeah I think they said in the New52 he was (back to being) 21. But I've decided life is better when we ignore Didio's decisions with Nightwing, and since the New52 (which de-aged him) is Didio's baby I'm perfectly happy to ignore that crap.

Dick Grayson is 24-25, minimum, possibly as old as 27 if you want to keep most of his history and development intact.

----------


## JoeZ

> Hes is 24-25  they may say he is 21 but that makes no sense Jason is 21  Tim is 17 and Damian is 13


Yes, it makes sense.

or maybe:
Bruce 35-37
Dick 23-24
Jason 20-21
Tim 16-17
Damian 13-14

----------


## JoeZ

> Yeah I think they said in the New52 he was (back to being) 21. But I've decided life is better when we ignore Didio's decisions with Nightwing, and since the New52 (which de-aged him) is Didio's baby I'm perfectly happy to ignore that crap.
> 
> Dick Grayson is 24-25, minimum, possibly as old as 27 if you want to keep most of his history and development intact.


God, when will they fix this mess? Rebirth started off so well, but look what they did to my boys, Dick Grayson and Wally West.  :Frown:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah I think they said in the New52 he was (back to being) 21. But I've decided life is better when we ignore Didio's decisions with Nightwing, and since the New52 (which de-aged him) is Didio's baby I'm perfectly happy to ignore that crap.
> 
> Dick Grayson is 24-25, minimum, possibly as old as 27 if you want to keep most of his history and development intact.


Babs is a grad student  they aint 21 not everyone just finshes school early at 17 like tim

----------


## Rac7d*

> God, when will they fix this mess? Rebirth started off so well, but look what they did to my boys, Dick Grayson and Wally West.


those poor boys

----------


## Godlike13

Exact ages are irrelevant. Its the age range that matters. Though that doesn't even matter anymore as the character is just fodder for the in house old guys. Who's modern sensibilities give way to things like becoming a taxi cab driver in an era of ride sharing, lol. Bludhaven itself now looks like something stuck in a time capsule even. Titans was brutal when it came to this too. Lets go to a pizza joint and hang out in our old club house by the beach. Im beyond tired of these out of touch creators.

----------


## byrd156

> those poor boys


I miss those costumes.

----------


## JoeZ

> those poor boys


I miss them.  :Frown:

----------


## Ascended

> God, when will they fix this mess? Rebirth started off so well, but look what they did to my boys, Dick Grayson and Wally West.


I know man. I know. 

It'll get better. We've been through rough patches before with both characters. We got through those, we'll get through this. No matter what Didio and other like-minded creators do, Dick Grayson will outlast them and rise again. He's way too important to DC history and too popular a character in larger media for anything else. It's just a question of how long this low-point will last.

Wally I'm a little more worried about. But he's still got too much history to be gotten rid of for good. Eventually Didio will turn his attention elsewhere and stop taking sh*ts on our guys, and then things will improve.




> Babs is a grad student  they aint 21 not everyone just finshes school early at 17 like tim


Tell that to DC!  :Big Grin:

----------


## JoeZ

> I know man. I know. 
> 
> It'll get better. We've been through rough patches before with both characters. We got through those, we'll get through this. No matter what Didio and other like-minded creators do, Dick Grayson will outlast them and rise again. He's way too important to DC history and too popular a character in larger media for anything else. It's just a question of how long this low-point will last.
> 
> Wally I'm a little more worried about. But he's still got too much history to be gotten rid of for good. Eventually Didio will turn his attention elsewhere and stop taking sh*ts on our guys, and then things will improve.


Yeah, and i had so much faith in Geoff Johns, but then, everything changed.  :Frown: 
Maybe things will change for the better after the end of Doomsday Clock, i hope.

----------


## Ascended

Well, I mean, on one level we do have reason to hope. Nightwing is coming to Titans season 2 and is a big player in YJ. WB/DC isn't as big on synergy as Marvel is but if Titans continues to do well I could see that maybe providing enough incentive for WB to want to see some emphasis on Dick and the other Titans. 

It'll likely result in another Titans reunion that is doomed to fail but it would force DC to put Dick back in recognizable form. At this point, a burned out status quo is better than what we have. 

And there's supposed to be that Bat-relaunch sometime this year or next, and a new Gotham-wide jumping on point would.....probably......include Nightwing. Once again, it'll most likely be Dick back in his normal status quo but I'll take that over Ric any day of the week.

And the whole "missing time/Dr. Manhattan" stuff and all the other continuity shenanigans all point towards a continuity reset/reboot, which would, presumably, also potentially lead to a "back to classic form" relaunch. Which would, if nothing else, get us past this Ric bullsh*t.

----------


## Godlike13

Here’s the thing though, Ric is just a symptom. A relaunch isn’t going to fix the real problem. As long as the same personnel behind Ric remains, and there continues to be no standards or accountability when it comes to what they produce, we’re still screwed.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> Hey guys, how old Dick is these days, post Rebirth?
> 19
> 20
> 21
> (?)


I can't see him still being college aged. I'd put him between 23 and 25. But while it's fun to speculate, it's best left ambiguous.

----------


## byrd156

> Heres the thing though, Ric is just a symptom. A relaunch isnt going to fix the real problem. As long as the same personnel behind Ric remains, and there continues to be no standards or accountability when it comes to what they produce, were still screwed.


I swear we are in a constant cycle in this thread.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s been a rough year and half. His comic situation sucks with no signs of improving, Titans and YJ are on break, so there’s not much else to talk about. 
We thought we had reason to hope with Titans and YJ steaming debuts, but that just resulted in DC giving us Ric.

----------


## Rac7d*

Hey I thought raptor died but I saw him in the latest deathroke, does dick actually have a villain of his own that appear independently in other media?


Another landmark event Dick is missing

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, Priest seems to like Raptor. I’m not complaining. It’s good to see him around and about.

----------


## WonderNight

> Hey I thought raptor died but I saw him in the latest deathroke, does dick actually have a villain of his own that appear independently in other media?
> 
> 
> Another landmark event Dick is missing


I'm whatever at this point, why would Dick be in a event at this point when everything about him revolves around batman and the batfamily? 

There's no point to nightwing outside of the bat mythos.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm whatever at this point, why would Dick be in a event at this point when everything about him revolves around batman and the batfamily? 
> 
> There's no point to nightwing outside of the bat mythos.


The Teen Titans Mythos is his as well, and their arch-enemy has jsut been put down for good
Dick has had alot of run ins with slade with and without the titans, he trained rose in combat when asked by slade
He was even referred to be jericho in the issue.

Their is point to nightwing outside the bat mythos it just seem that when big events happen he has to be restrained from participating for some reason

----------


## Badou

It is all the same to me. He gets treated like shit in the Bat mythos in Batman stories and he gets treated like shit in the bigger DCU myhtos stories. I kind of don't care at this point. I don't have any expectations that he will suddenly start to be used well or be important in something outside of his own solo. Just more of him being used as a dumb plot point to further someone else's story. 




> Hey I thought raptor died but I saw him in the latest deathroke, does dick actually have a villain of his own that appear independently in other media?
> 
> 
> Another landmark event Dick is missing


I thought Raptor was kind of meh overall, but Priest seems to like him which is neat. He used him before in his Deathstroke run so this is probably a call back to that. I doubt Priest is aware or cares about what is going on in the Nightwing book, which is good.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is better treated outside comics compared when he is in the pages. Even the nerfed DCAnimated Nightwing is looked up to, cool and emotionally stable with Starfire. Fix his martial arts and ability then most of the complains are gone. Young Justice. Teen Titans. BtAS. That other Batman series. Dick is actually treated more respectfully outside comics. DiDio and company are so obvious.

----------


## yohyoi

Which is why all these comic b.s. won't kill Nightwing. DiDio can't remove him. He is a top 10, arguably top 5, DC character. He won't be gone. They can't destroy him like Wally. He will always be there. And that annoys DiDio everyday.

----------


## WonderNight

> The Teen Titans Mythos is his as well, and their arch-enemy has jsut been put down for good
> Dick has had alot of run ins with slade with and without the titans, he trained rose in combat when asked by slade
> He was even referred to be jericho in the issue.
> 
> Their is point to nightwing outside the bat mythos it just seem that when big events happen he has to be restrained from participating for some reason


yea and all of that means nothing now outside  of nostalgia. Comics nightwing needs a new status quo fast.

----------


## Ascended

> Heres the thing though, Ric is just a symptom. A relaunch isnt going to fix the real problem. As long as the same personnel behind Ric remains, and there continues to be no standards or accountability when it comes to what they produce, were still screwed.


Oh I know. But what I'm saying is that, *if* Nightwing goes over well on Titans, and a few other things maybe align right then WB *might* decide to tell DC to put some effort in, and that'll introduce the standards and accountability we're missing right now. Not the standards and accountability the character deserves, but more than we have now.

Yes, that's an outcome totally dependent on WB noticing the character's success and telling Didio to knock his bullshit off. And even if that happened, we'd just end up back in the Bludhaven status quo, which a lot of us don't want and which hasn't exactly worked out great since the Dixon days. But it is still an improvement over what we have now. I didn't say things would turn out great, just that we *might* get back to a recognizable Nightwing; not a great one.

And if the Gotham line does have a relaunch, as rumors have said, I think the odds are kinda-sorta decent that Nightwing would be included. Which, again, would just be a return to the Bludhaven status quo. So that's two potential avenues that could lead to Dick being back in the suit. Perhaps neither will happen but at least there's *some* path back to where we were.

I've been around long enough to see many IP's come in and out of low points, go back into low points and climb out again. Most of us have. It might seem like Dick is destined to be sh*t on forever, until Didio finally manages to remove him completely. But the great thing about these characters, especially someone as storied as Dick, is that they always bounce back.........eventually. 

Its just a matter of when and how much bullshit we have to put up with before it happens.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh I know. But what I'm saying is that, *if* Nightwing goes over well on Titans, and a few other things maybe align right then WB *might* decide to tell DC to put some effort in, and that'll introduce the standards and accountability we're missing right now. Not the standards and accountability the character deserves, but more than we have now.
> 
> Yes, that's an outcome totally dependent on WB noticing the character's success and telling Didio to knock his bullshit off. And even if that happened, we'd just end up back in the Bludhaven status quo, which a lot of us don't want and which hasn't exactly worked out great since the Dixon days. But it is still an improvement over what we have now. I didn't say things would turn out great, just that we *might* get back to a recognizable Nightwing; not a great one.
> 
> And if the Gotham line does have a relaunch, as rumors have said, I think the odds are kinda-sorta decent that Nightwing would be included. Which, again, would just be a return to the Bludhaven status quo. So that's two potential avenues that could lead to Dick being back in the suit. Perhaps neither will happen but at least there's *some* path back to where we were.
> 
> I've been around long enough to see many IP's come in and out of low points, go back into low points and climb out again. Most of us have. It might seem like Dick is destined to be sh*t on forever, until Didio finally manages to remove him completely. But the great thing about these characters, especially someone as storied as Dick, is that they always bounce back.........eventually. 
> 
> Its just a matter of when and how much bullshit we have to put up with before it happens.


Thats what I have been saying, Titans is his one hope since that can  change everything and show DC how marketable he is  My eventual hope is for him to leave the group and go solo. Money trumps feelings anyday and didio will just have to grin and bare it

----------


## byrd156

> It’s been a rough year and half. His comic situation sucks with no signs of improving, Titans and YJ are on break, so there’s not much else to talk about. 
> We thought we had reason to hope with Titans and YJ steaming debuts, but that just resulted in DC giving us Ric.


I know but it feels like we have been in the same thought loop since the reboot. Just the crap situation keeps changing for a different one.

----------


## Rac7d*

What is dick best detective story?

----------


## Godlike13

Who is Donna Troy? and Batman and Robin are the first that pop up to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Who is Donna Troy? and Batman and Robin are the first that pop up to me.


Lol I was just rereading who is Donna Troy I was hoping for some other storys. I assume after the 90s that ends since that becomes Tim defining trait and we cant step on any toes

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, Dixon started his thing then.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ya, Dixon started his thing then.


With Dixon I just remember all the colorful and unique assasassins and his acrobatics being used

----------


## Agent 37

Haven't posted on this forum for a long time, and dropped Nightwing at the start of the Ric ordeal. But I lurk in every now and then to see what fans are excited/disappointed about and mostly to see if the direction of Nightwing has changed for the better. Seems to be the same old same old.

On that note, would an extreme direction change in Dick Grayson's character be more welcome than the constant re-used storylines, and under appreciated role  that Nightwing seems stuck in?  Would fans be happy if (for example) the current Ric persona was all a ruse, and Grayson is the man behind the Leviathon mask? It's a reach I know, but depending on how Event Leviathon plays out, would fans be upset if Dick went a different route to try and help make a difference?

----------


## Godlike13

I’d be open to it. Hell I was open to Ric. Like you said though, it depends how it plays out. Like what does it lead to, what kind of creators does it land, and what kind of stories would we get.

----------


## Ascended

> On that note, would an extreme direction change in Dick Grayson's character be more welcome than the constant re-used storylines, and under appreciated role  that Nightwing seems stuck in?  Would fans be happy if (for example) the current Ric persona was all a ruse, and Grayson is the man behind the Leviathon mask? It's a reach I know, but depending on how Event Leviathon plays out, would fans be upset if Dick went a different route to try and help make a difference?


I'm open to the idea depending on how things shake out. I'm not interested in seeing Dick turn into a villain, but I'm definitely down with him getting back into the spy game. **If** Leviathan turns out to be something other than an evil organization, and Dick's motivations made some sense and his character wasn't butchered, hell yeah I'd be down with it. It might seem strange to see someone like Dick going in a more morally gray direction but I think there's a way to get him into that position without sacrificing his ethics. It'd certainly provide plenty of inner conflict for him, that's for sure.

Honestly, I'd rather see DC try new things with Nightwing (whether spy related or not) than stick him back in the same old status quo where he fights Blockbuster in Bludhaven. I don't hate the city or Desmond like some posters here do, in fact I'm fairly fond of Blockbuster and I think the problem with Bludhaven is the writers, not the city itself. But I think Dick's strengths as a character lie beyond the standard superhero trappings and limiting him to a single city is neglecting his ties to the wider DCU. 

Experimentation is better than stagnation. And this is comics, there isn't a bad direction that can't be undone and swept under the rug.

----------


## Ascended

> I’d be open to it. Hell I was open to Ric. Like you said though, it depends how it plays out. Like what does it lead to, what kind of creators does it land, and what kind of stories would we get.


Exactly. Ric has been awful. I'm not even reading the book and I can smell how bad it stinks.  :Stick Out Tongue:  But I'm happy to give different directions a shot. I gave Grayson a shot and adored it. Ric....not so much, but I'm happy that DC tried something new (not thrilled that it's still going on despite being a failure tho). I want Nightwing to elevate in the DCU. I want him to have better sales and a bigger role in the world. And I dont think he's going to get there with his usual status quo.

----------


## Agent 37

> I'm open to the idea depending on how things shake out. I'm not interested in seeing Dick turn into a villain, but I'm definitely down with him getting back into the spy game. **If** Leviathan turns out to be something other than an evil organization, and Dick's motivations made some sense and his character wasn't butchered, hell yeah I'd be down with it. It might seem strange to see someone like Dick going in a more morally gray direction but I think there's a way to get him into that position without sacrificing his ethics. It'd certainly provide plenty of inner conflict for him, that's for sure.
> 
> Honestly, I'd rather see DC try new things with Nightwing (whether spy related or not) than stick him back in the same old status quo where he fights Blockbuster in Bludhaven. I don't hate the city or Desmond like some posters here do, in fact I'm fairly fond of Blockbuster and I think the problem with Bludhaven is the writers, not the city itself. But I think Dick's strengths as a character lie beyond the standard superhero trappings and limiting him to a single city is neglecting his ties to the wider DCU. 
> 
> Experimentation is better than stagnation. And this is comics, there isn't a bad direction that can't be undone and swept under the rug.


This is similar to my train of thought. I too do not want Dick to go villain, not in the least. But *If* Event Leviathon ended proving the elimination of the other self serving organizations was somehow for the greater good, and the the motive to pursue this route by Grayson was sincere and effective, I could find myself into a character shift in that way.  I do not know the implications of the Leviathon attacks, and if the casualties etc., would seem to steep of a price to justify these means, but getting a rebuilt, streamlined corner of the DC universe (even if it was behind the scenes in a espionage "Grayson-esque" book) would give fans a new direction and purpose for Dick that has been lacking for some time now.  It could finally serve as a way for Dick to elevate his stature in the DC universe by proving his intelligence and ability to read other heroes and villains, and stay one step ahead of them. Dick's unique perspective of having been  on both sides of the fence as a masked hero, and involved in the espionage aspects of DC would give him the ability to be involved in all aspects of ongoing stories throughout the whole publisher as a behind the scenes operative serving a new greater good.

Just an idea I had been tossing around for a while now, and like I stated before it is quite a reach. But the status quo hasn't hit it out of the park for some time now.

----------


## Konja7

> Lol I was just rereading who is Donna Troy I was hoping for some other story’s. I assume after the 90s that ends since that becomes Tim defining trait and we can’t step on any toes


Yeah. I've understood there seems to be a "division" of abilities between the Robins. Tim is the "smart" and the detective skills were included in this trait.

However, when Dick becomes Batman, he should be a detective again (as Batman should be the "smart"), so he recover this ability. Of course, he would lose this again when he returned to be Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Haven't posted on this forum for a long time, and dropped Nightwing at the start of the Ric ordeal. But I lurk in every now and then to see what fans are excited/disappointed about and mostly to see if the direction of Nightwing has changed for the better. Seems to be the same old same old.
> 
> On that note, would an extreme direction change in Dick Grayson's character be more welcome than the constant re-used storylines, and under appreciated role  that Nightwing seems stuck in?  Would fans be happy if (for example) the current Ric persona was all a ruse, and Grayson is the man behind the Leviathon mask? It's a reach I know, but depending on how Event Leviathon plays out, would fans be upset if Dick went a different route to try and help make a difference?


No, because him doing a ruse doesn't make sense unless there's a bigger evil at play kinda like how he didn't tell the fam there's a bomb in Damian's head. So unless he knows about Perpetua and Year of The Villains ahead of time I don't think that would work.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Well depending on the timeline of events, I could see Dick becoming Leviathan.

Like, imagine finally getting your memories back, and then finding out everything that's happened since then. While several heroes. including children, died at the Sanctuary, Dick was _being Ric_. And it's not just that, he'd have to deal with how unstable Bruce has become due to his absence: Bruce at least had somewhat of a reason to physically beat and chase Jason out of Gotham even if it was unnecessary, but randomly punching Tim was nonsensical. Because of Bruce's unstoppable curiosity during the start of Metal as well as the seeming incompetency of the JL during No Justice and the whole JL run so far, we're now at the point where the entire multiverse is in danger. Dick formed the latest group of Titans literally to deal with that fallout, so coming back to see nothing's gotten better even though it's the same JL in charge now as the one that forced him to disband the previous iteration of the Titans (the same action that robbed Roy and Wally of their support systems and eventually landed them both at the Sanctuary). This also doesn't include the whole Dark Multiverse corruption thing that the new Superman/Batman book is exploring, where several heroes are suspected of being evil including Donna which, regardless of the outcome, won't sit well with Dick.

You ask me, that's already enough for Dick to temporarily shun the hero community and go about things a different way. Why he'd go evil, well, it's pretty simple imo. Dick gets his memories back somehow right, it's not a stretch to say Otto Netz gets his place in Dick's brain back then too. Maybe it'd be a reverse Super Spider-Man situation, it makes sense given the Spyral-Leviathan connections. Or they could write the story first, then use Netz as the scapegoat so they can tell a dark story with Dick and then absolve him of any wrong-doings, then firmly plant him in the spy community as a grey-area "hero" seeking redemption or whatever. 

Still, I doubt it'd happen. The only interesting theory I've seen about all this tho is that Leviathan is Roy, so hey, maybe Roy will drag Dick into the spy game later on. Leviathan and the new Agent 0, could be an interesting dynamic.

----------


## Ascended

I think the motivation to get back into the spy game would be rather straight forward, if DC actually did it. With Spyral Dick discovered a number of threats the heroic community had no idea about. And the agencies like the DEO and all the rest are ineffective, corrupt......they're not getting the job done. But if all those agencies had been able to put their in-fighting aside and decided to work together they could've taken over the world with no one even noticing. So Dick might get back into the game just because he's the only one who can really deal with those dangers; he's not really programmed for spy work but he *is* good at it and he's got connections through Spyral. He might consider it a dirty job that only he can do. 

With Leviathan......I could be wrong but so far no one has died, right? And Leviathan is making offers to heroes and villains alike, including Babs. Depending on how it all shakes out.....right now I could see this being Nightwing......except for the fact that DC seems determined to ruin the character and I doubt they'd give him such a big, important role.

----------


## Restingvoice

While he approaches both heroes and villains, he's promoted as a villain. So that can count as ruining.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think the motivation to get back into the spy game would be rather straight forward, if DC actually did it. With Spyral Dick discovered a number of threats the heroic community had no idea about. And the agencies like the DEO and all the rest are ineffective, corrupt......they're not getting the job done. But if all those agencies had been able to put their in-fighting aside and decided to work together they could've taken over the world with no one even noticing. So Dick might get back into the game just because he's the only one who can really deal with those dangers; he's not really programmed for spy work but he *is* good at it and he's got connections through Spyral. He might consider it a dirty job that only he can do. 
> 
> With Leviathan......I could be wrong but so far no one has died, right? And Leviathan is making offers to heroes and villains alike, including Babs. Depending on how it all shakes out.....right now I could see this being Nightwing......except for the fact that DC seems determined to ruin the character and I doubt they'd give him such a big, important role.


Why make dick a spy again. Helena not even a spy anymore. Spyral Is no longer relevant it is in limbo. It has no history without dick.  So making dick a soynwiil not help him he will be like removed from the superhero world.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

It wouldn’t be Grayson the spy. It’d be Nightwing the superhero with a spy side gig. It keeps him in the superhero circle and the spy circle. We do better adding on to Nightwing than stripping away and blocking him out of something he was once an integral part of. I’d be pissed if I was Seeley tbh. I took this idea that no one cared about and with the help of Tom (a no name at the time) made it interesting and started to rebuild the spy corner and you give Bendis the spy event after derailing Dick.. er... Ric

----------


## K. Jones

> I think the motivation to get back into the spy game would be rather straight forward, if DC actually did it. With Spyral Dick discovered a number of threats the heroic community had no idea about. And the agencies like the DEO and all the rest are ineffective, corrupt......they're not getting the job done. But if all those agencies had been able to put their in-fighting aside and decided to work together they could've taken over the world with no one even noticing. So Dick might get back into the game just because he's the only one who can really deal with those dangers; he's not really programmed for spy work but he *is* good at it and he's got connections through Spyral. He might consider it a dirty job that only he can do. 
> 
> With Leviathan......I could be wrong but so far no one has died, right? And Leviathan is making offers to heroes and villains alike, including Babs. Depending on how it all shakes out.....right now I could see this being Nightwing......except for the fact that DC seems determined to ruin the character and I doubt they'd give him such a big, important role.


Let's say Dick is Leviathan, which is what I really, really want to be the case, opening the story with him "winning" is a pretty bold move worthy of his high level of competence and his keystone understanding of not only the superhero community but how quickly he figured out the spy community as well. All while avoiding the direct ire of Batman and Superman - the two people he knows the best ways to avoid/confuse/run around.

But more than that it's a pretty Batman move, to come out the gate with a Batman Gambit, victory in the preparation, and come up with a costume that terrifies some and inspires others. To eject Talia from a ship knowing full well Superman would go to catch her instead of tailing them. (Which would also speak to their pretty antagonistic relationship and years of frenemy/enemy/my best friend's WORST ex-girlfriend dynamics).

----------


## dietrich

> Haven't posted on this forum for a long time, and dropped Nightwing at the start of the Ric ordeal. But I lurk in every now and then to see what fans are excited/disappointed about and mostly to see if the direction of Nightwing has changed for the better. Seems to be the same old same old.
> 
> On that note, would an extreme direction change in Dick Grayson's character be more welcome than the constant re-used storylines, and under appreciated role  that Nightwing seems stuck in?  Would fans be happy if (for example) the current Ric persona was all a ruse, and Grayson is the man behind the Leviathon mask? It's a reach I know, but depending on how Event Leviathon plays out, would fans be upset if Dick went a different route to try and help make a difference?


Grayson being Leviathan would be  a welcome and interesting direction. With he's spy background it's feasible though it's an extreme change in morals and MO but Ric is an extreme too but the Dick as Leviathan angle sounds more interesting.

----------


## Ascended

> Why make dick a spy again. Helena not even a spy anymore. Spyral Is no longer relevant it is in limbo. It has no history without dick.  So making dick a soynwiil not help him he will be like removed from the superhero world.


Or maybe he'll become DC's version of Nick Fury and be more important than ever.

As I said, I want experimentation. I liked Bludhaven under Dixon but the concept has no consistency and Dick will never be more important to the DCU when he's just protecting a smaller version of Gotham, which is what Bludhaven is seen as by the fans regardless of how true it is or isnt. 

Grayson was a critical success and did well in sales, even at the end it didn't really drop below normal levels for Nightwing, and by that point the story had gotten really weird (not to mention the lack of brand recognition). So Dick getting back into a newly solidified spy world? Sure, let's give it a whirl. It can't be worse than what we have now. And I find it very unlikely that DC would ask Bendis to organize the spy agencies just to ignore the end result. Whatever comes out of the other side of Leviathan, I figure DC plans on using it. 

Maybe Dick returning to espionage wouldn't work out. Okay, then try something different. But we've got a precedent in Grayson that shows the approach has some legs to it, and it's a niche no one else is filling. So I don't see any reason not to give it an honest shot and incorporate all the brand power of "Nightwing" with the spy genre. It's unlikely to be worse than "Ric" and just might be fantastic. And if it doesn't work, well, try something different.

----------


## Ascended

> While he approaches both heroes and villains, he's promoted as a villain. So that can count as ruining.


Let's see how the story handles it. Promotion is just that; and often it doesn't really reflect the actual product. 

Looking at how DC has promoted this, I expected a huge body count by the end of issue 1. Yet, as far as I recall, Leviathan hasn't killed anyone yet....as far as we know. So let's see what happens. 

Now, if Leviathan *is* a villain, and if he *is* Dick Grayson, then I'll be pissed beyond all belief. You don't turn Nightwing into a bad guy! But so far I don't think we can look at Leviathan's actions and really say what he is or isn't yet.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Let's see how the story handles it. Promotion is just that; and often it doesn't really reflect the actual product. 
> 
> Looking at how DC has promoted this, I expected a huge body count by the end of issue 1. Yet, as far as I recall, Leviathan hasn't killed anyone yet....as far as we know. So let's see what happens. 
> 
> Now, if Leviathan *is* a villain, and if he *is* Dick Grayson, then I'll be pissed beyond all belief. You don't turn Nightwing into a bad guy! But so far I don't think we can look at Leviathan's actions and really say what he is or isn't yet.


He did toss Talia out the airlock. If not for Supes, she would be a red smear on the side of a mountain.

----------


## Godlike13

If Dick is Leviathan the first thing he should do is kill the Nightwings.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It wouldnt be Grayson the spy. Itd be Nightwing the superhero with a spy side gig. It keeps him in the superhero circle and the spy circle. We do better adding on to Nightwing than stripping away and blocking him out of something he was once an integral part of. Id be pissed if I was Seeley tbh. I took this idea that no one cared about and with the help of Tom (a no name at the time) made it interesting and started to rebuild the spy corner and you give Bendis the spy event after derailing Dick.. er... Ric


Sounds like you want him to black widow

----------


## Rac7d*

> Or maybe he'll become DC's version of Nick Fury and be more important than ever.
> 
> As I said, I want experimentation. I liked Bludhaven under Dixon but the concept has no consistency and Dick will never be more important to the DCU when he's just protecting a smaller version of Gotham, which is what Bludhaven is seen as by the fans regardless of how true it is or isnt. 
> 
> Grayson was a critical success and did well in sales, even at the end it didn't really drop below normal levels for Nightwing, and by that point the story had gotten really weird (not to mention the lack of brand recognition). So Dick getting back into a newly solidified spy world? Sure, let's give it a whirl. It can't be worse than what we have now. And I find it very unlikely that DC would ask Bendis to organize the spy agencies just to ignore the end result. Whatever comes out of the other side of Leviathan, I figure DC plans on using it. 
> 
> Maybe Dick returning to espionage wouldn't work out. Okay, then try something different. But we've got a precedent in Grayson that shows the approach has some legs to it, and it's a niche no one else is filling. So I don't see any reason not to give it an honest shot and incorporate all the brand power of "Nightwing" with the spy genre. It's unlikely to be worse than "Ric" and just might be fantastic. And if it doesn't work, well, try something different.



No piece of writing will make you important. Money makes you important, if your marketable   (BATMAN DEADPOOL HARLEY WOLVERINE) then you are important
that why Titans is the most important thing, comics no matter how well superhero movies do their is no long lasting uptick in sales its dying. It doesnt matter what idea we have for him in the books all that matter is him being featured on a screen.

Robert Patterson as batman means no film version of nightwing  in the near future so bank on Titans season 2 being a hit and catching WBs interest. Their version of Dick grayson could very easily fit into a world of espionage

----------


## bearman

Dick is already shown to be badly psychologically impaired; it would not wreck his core character to have him even more screwed up than we’ve been shown.
To turn him into a powerful, smart adversary, out foxing Bruce and Clark initially would be brilliant. It’s Dick Grayson at his full potential.
 And hopefully a jumping off point for a new ongoing direction.
I don’t think this character is Roy; and I hope we see Midnighter.

----------


## Godlike13

> No piece of writing will make you important. Money makes you important, if your marketable   (BATMAN DEADPOOL HARLEY WOLVERINE) then you are important
> that why Titans is the most important thing, comics no matter how well superhero movies do their is no long lasting uptick in sales its dying. It doesnt matter what idea we have for him in the books all that matter is him being featured on a screen.
> 
> Robert Patterson as batman means no film version of nightwing  in the near future so bank on Titans season 2 being a hit and catching WBs interest. Their version of Dick grayson could very easily fit into a world of espionage


If the comics division gave a crap about Titans Ric wouldn’t have happened, and the Titans comic would have been far more a priority then it was. 
Hell it wasn’t too long ago that they deemed Nightwing marketable enough to double ship, which he held onto for longer then most, and yet even still they can’t bring themselves to care if he even has competent people working on his title. Even characters who perform far less, and have less going for them outside of comics, see better standards then Dick has been shown.

----------


## byrd156

> If Dick is Leviathan the first thing he should do is kill the Nightwings.


Dick being Leviathan is just as dumb and damaging as Ric. Just not as mind-numbingly boring.

----------


## Ascended

> No piece of writing will make you important. Money makes you important, if your marketable   (BATMAN DEADPOOL HARLEY WOLVERINE) then you are important
> that why Titans is the most important thing, comics no matter how well superhero movies do their is no long lasting uptick in sales its dying. It doesnt matter what idea we have for him in the books all that matter is him being featured on a screen.
> 
> Robert Patterson as batman means no film version of nightwing  in the near future so bank on Titans season 2 being a hit and catching WBs interest. Their version of Dick grayson could very easily fit into a world of espionage


How are you defining "important?" I'm talking about Dick's role in his world and maximizing his potential within this specific market, not how much merchandise he sells. Because movies and tv shows don't really impact comic sales. 

If the goal is to move more comics, and for DC publishing it is because they don't make the movies or shows, the way to get there is with quality, engaging directions, consistency, and a perception among the customer base that the IP matters to the wider narrative of the DCU. Dick protecting Bludhaven isn't likely to get him there. And maybe a return to the spy stuff won't either. But the odds of it happening as a spy are a hell of a lot higher than Ric suddenly being successful. 

If your concern is movies, well.....honestly I feel like we're screwed. WB struggles to make good movies at the best of times and Nightwing's story is deeply wrapped up in Bruce's, and WB is struggling with that (their biggest IP that they give all their attention to, and they're struggling to get a film out. Sad). They might do an out-of-continuity Nightwing film (like Joker) or something set in the "near future" or whatever, but I wouldn't hang my hopes on the DC movies. Even if they did make a successful Nightwing film, the odds of it impacting the comic sales are really damn slim. Maybe Dick would be one of those few exceptions who do see an increase.....but his sales floor is so high already I doubt it.

The only chance any adaptations have of improving the comics side is if WB takes notice of how popular Dick is in outside media, and then tell DC to capitalize on that and push the character. But they'd have to notice him first, then overrule Didio's objections. That's a pretty damn thin hope, if you ask me. I figure the only way Dick is going to get out from under this rock is if Didio and his like-minded managers leave, or if a writer comes along who has the pull to do whatever he wants (like Bendis) and that writer decides to make Nightwing a badass again.

----------


## Ascended

> He did toss Talia out the airlock. If not for Supes, she would be a red smear on the side of a mountain.


Assuming Dick is Leviathan (and I dont think he is) and he hasn't gone totally evil/insane, one could assume he tossed Talia knowing that Clark would save her and that would slow Superman down enough for Dick to leave. 

I mean, if anyone is going to be able to out maneuver Clark (other than Bruce), it's Dick.

But I dont think Leviathan is Dick. It's a fun theory though.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

The amount of character assassinations from DC knows no bounds if he is Leviathan.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I wanna see Dick be Leviathan. Dead Roy, evil Donna, killer Wally and villain Dick. I can see the new Titans book now: the Tryannic Titans.

----------


## Ascended

> I wanna see Dick be Leviathan. Dead Roy, evil Donna, killer Wally and villain Dick. I can see the new Titans book now: the Tryannic Titans.


.......

Make Roy a zombie, and I'd read it. 

 :Big Grin:

----------


## Rac7d*

> I wanna see Dick be Leviathan. Dead Roy, evil Donna, killer Wally and villain Dick. I can see the new Titans book now: the Tryannic Titans.


Teen titans go did this

----------


## Godlike13

Dick Gravestone was pretty good, LoL.

----------


## king81992

> I wanna see Dick be Leviathan. Dead Roy, evil Donna, killer Wally and villain Dick. I can see the new Titans book now: the Tryannic Titans.


This feels like something DC would do.It's not a coincidence that most of the characters who are suspected of being on the Batman Who Laughs payroll are from the Titans franchise.

If most of the relevant Titans are evil or derailed who does DC expect to carry the franchise? Damian 's generation? Outside of Damian and KF I don't think they have staying power.

----------


## Godlike13

Thought this was funny,
_Tim Seeley: Here’s the sad truth you learn when working in ongoing serialized fiction: No one REALLY wants the will-they-wont-they couples together. The moment the creator does it, they’re subject to the ideas and expectations of every reader, and that means every single reader will be disappointed. It’s the old Sam and Diane Conundrum from Cheers. The moment you do it, you lose the story engine that comes from the tension. See also, my experience with Nightwing and Batgirl!_

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...-15-jean-grey/

----------


## Jackalope89

> Thought this was funny,
> _Tim Seeley: Here’s the sad truth you learn when working in ongoing serialized fiction: No one REALLY wants the will-they-wont-they couples together. The moment the creator does it, they’re subject to the ideas and expectations of every reader, and that means every single reader will be disappointed. It’s the old Sam and Diane Conundrum from Cheers. The moment you do it, you lose the story engine that comes from the tension. See also, my experience with Nightwing and Batgirl!_
> 
> http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...-15-jean-grey/


Or, it could lead into new stories exploring that couple's relationship as it progresses.

Because heaven forbid we actually get somewhere with some of these relationships. Supes and Lois being one of the few exceptions. And even that had to be brought back after the failed New52!

----------


## Badou

I'd be fine if Dick was running Leviathan as anything is better than Ric. Where Dick is at now is the complete bottom creatively. Dick could have even been the murderer in HiC instead of Wally and I'd be fine with it because unlike Wally Dick has had his chances over and over again to tell solo stories and they haven't really been working. So do something to shake up the character entirely. If Dick is still running around rooftops in Bludhaven working as a cab driver or a bartender after he gets his memories back I'm done. 

But I don't see how he can be the guy running Leviathan. Since isn't Talon recruiting Dick the same time as Leviathan is going on? Plus the words the guy used like calling Superman "the alien" didn't really feel like anything Dick would say. But it is Bendis and he isn't really known for getting characters right, so who knows. 





> Thought this was funny,
> _Tim Seeley: Here’s the sad truth you learn when working in ongoing serialized fiction: No one REALLY wants the will-they-wont-they couples together. The moment the creator does it, they’re subject to the ideas and expectations of every reader, and that means every single reader will be disappointed. It’s the old Sam and Diane Conundrum from Cheers. The moment you do it, you lose the story engine that comes from the tension. See also, my experience with Nightwing and Batgirl!_
> 
> http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...-15-jean-grey/


I feel like it works both ways. If all you do is tease them together and nothing ever happens everyone is upset too. Since the people that want the relationship to happen are upset, and the people that want Dick to move on to a new romance are upset because he is still stuck in a relationship tease that will never develop into anything. I'd personally rather see relationships develop and progress. It gives you opportunities to tell different stories and dive even further into their relationship. Eventually that means that the relationship will "end" in these ongoing serialized fiction stories, but after enough time passes you can circle back around to it again.

----------


## jules

> I feel like it works both ways. If all you do is tease them together and nothing ever happens everyone is upset too. Since the people that want the relationship to happen are upset, and the people that want Dick to move on to a new romance are upset because he is still stuck in a relationship tease that will never develop into anything. I'd personally rather see relationships develop and progress. It gives you opportunities to tell different stories and dive even further into their relationship. Eventually that means that the relationship will "end" in these ongoing serialized fiction stories, but after enough time passes you can circle back around to it again.


Getting one of those couples together definitely can work, but it changes the nature of the dynamic between them and you have to make some story shifts to allow for that. And the relationship story, amazingly enough in this age of decompressed stories, never seems to get enough room to breathe.

The bigger problem, and one thats fairly unique to comics, is that if both halves of the couple have their own books there are competing demands to keep them apart. Unless the same writer is doing both books, in which case they can co-ordinate the demands on each characters time apart, and throw in a mix of crossovers and extended guest appearances to built and develop the relationship. So Dick and Babs worked really well during the Chuck Dixon era, when he was in charge of both their fates, but started falling apart as soon as he came off one of the titles and went into complete meltdown as soon as hed left both.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Getting one of those couples together definitely can work, but it changes the nature of the dynamic between them and you have to make some story shifts to allow for that. And the relationship story, amazingly enough in this age of decompressed stories, never seems to get enough room to breathe.
> 
> The bigger problem, and one thats fairly unique to comics, is that if both halves of the couple have their own books there are competing demands to keep them apart. Unless the same writer is doing both books, in which case they can co-ordinate the demands on each characters time apart, and throw in a mix of crossovers and extended guest appearances to built and develop the relationship. So Dick and Babs worked really well during the Chuck Dixon era, when he was in charge of both their fates, but started falling apart as soon as he came off one of the titles and went into complete meltdown as soon as hed left both.


Is that the issue having the writer? Why is it so difficult for writer to collaborate. Batgirl whole life doesnt change because she dating dick

----------


## yohyoi

It's better not to date Batgirl. Dick needs less Bat family, not more. I'm tired of Dick's life revolving around Gotham, Batman's territory. He needs to stay away and only visit from time to time. I'll rather read boring Nightwing Bludhaven stories than the typical Nightwing Gotham stories. At least in those stories Dick is the boss and the Man. The story should revolve around Nightwing. Not Batman. Not Batgirl. Not any other in the Bat family. Not every Nightwing fan is intrested in his Bat history. Dick Grayson is more than that.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing name came from Superman. He became Nightwing in the most iconic Titans story. All away from Batman's shadow. I don't know why people want him to go back to S.S. Gotham. And be assigned as First Mate Nightwing to Captain Batman. Re-reading every Nightwing Gotham these recent years has been cringe inducing. Might as well call him Blue Robin because that's what he is in Gotham. Grayson did it right. Get him out of Gotham. Get him a new cast without Gotham baggage. Last and most important, crossovers should be lessened and have little impact to the series. Shame to shooting Nightwing in the head, NOT EVEN IN HIS OWN BOOK. Shame! King destroyed Nightwing and Titans in a forgettable Batman issue. Shame to DC!

----------


## Godlike13

I get what Seeley is saying, but at the same time I’m not sure Dick and Babs was initially intended to be a will they won’t they. It now devolved into that, which imo seems more due to scheduling and publishing obstacles. But I mean Dick and Babs did have pretty good relationship when they were dating, at least imo, and I think it’s actually when it devolved into this will they won’t they that it started to disappoint and unsatisfy.

----------


## bearman

One of the many things I liked about Grayson were the Batman/ Grayson interactions. Though they were over the radio, and Batman was costumed in his war room, the exchanges read less like Batman to Nightwing, and more like Bruce to Dick. They showed their mutual respect and affection, coming off as comrades and brothers, not rivals, or even mentor/student.

----------


## Ascended

> Is that the issue having the writer? Why is it so difficult for writer to collaborate. Batgirl whole life doesnt change because she dating dick


I assume the relationship just gets in the way of each writer developing the story they want to tell.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I get what Seeley is saying, but at the same time I’m not sure Dick and Babs was initially intended to be a will they won’t they. It now devolved into that, which imo seems more due to scheduling and publishing obstacles. But I mean Dick and Babs did have pretty good relationship when they were dating, at least imo, and I think it’s actually when it devolved into this will they won’t they that it started to disappoint and unsatisfy.


She was Oracle He was Batman they probably could have gotten married and had children if not for the New52 reset

----------


## Rac7d*

> I assume the relationship just gets in the way of each writer developing the story they want to tell.


How does that work, do they ever have to come together and let the other writer know wha they intend to do, we have 3-5 books set in the same city somtimes

----------


## WonderNight

> It's better not to date Batgirl. Dick needs less Bat family, not more. I'm tired of Dick's life revolving around Gotham, Batman's territory. He needs to stay away and only visit from time to time. I'll rather read boring Nightwing Bludhaven stories than the typical Nightwing Gotham stories. At least in those stories Dick is the boss and the Man. The story should revolve around Nightwing. Not Batman. Not Batgirl. Not any other in the Bat family. Not every Nightwing fan is intrested in his Bat history. Dick Grayson is more than that.


you sir gets a cookie. I agree.

----------


## dietrich

> How does that work, do they ever have to come together and let the other writer know wha they intend to do, we have 3-5 books set in the same city somtimes


What Ascended means is that it gets in the way should the Nightwing or Batgirl writer wish to write a story where either of them get into a relationship with some other character.

While I agree that a relationship might put limitations on writers wishing to explore romances with different characters I don't think dating Babs ties Dick to Gotham/Batverse anymore than his history already does.

They don't have to heavily feature in each others books. He doesn't have to physically always be in Gotham for the relationship to work. Not all writers introduce a love interest anyway.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What Ascended means is that it gets in the way should the Nightwing or Batgirl writer wish to write a story where either of them get into a relationship with some other character.


Well I mean in general how do writers come into agreement of what their characters can or cannot do, what allowed to permanently happen to them. One writer cant just cut off Jason''s leg because then the writer of his solo book has to deal with it right?

----------


## Arsenal

> Well I mean in general how do writers come into agreement of what their characters can or cannot do, what allowed to permanently happen to them. One writer cant just cut off Jason''s leg because then the writer of his solo book has to deal with it right?


Batman #55 and Nightwing #50 would like to have a word.

----------


## dietrich

> Well I mean in general how do writers come into agreement of what their characters can or cannot do, what allowed to permanently happen to them. One writer cant just cut off Jason''s leg because then the writer of his solo book has to deal with it right?


I don't think they are required to unless mandated by editorial. Writers often ignore other writers are doing. Some pay attention to continuity. I think they have creative license except where otherwise agreed.

Tec has ignored/avoided most of King's Batman but I doubt Tomasi would be able to write bruce romancing Talia while king is writing him courting Selina. 

He [Tomasi] might but it reflects badly on him, on the character, not to mention fucks up King's work.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Batman #55 and Nightwing #50 would like to have a word.


Since the original solicitation implied that Percy wanted to give him vertigo, I think he agreed with the shooting, but DC override it and say he has to have amnesia. That's when he quits.

I only just recently remember this, btw

----------


## Rac7d*

> Batman #55 and Nightwing #50 would like to have a word.


Thats what I means how does that come into agreement, obviously Nightwing can be a sacrificial lamb he has been before but the reverse could not happen in nightwing book?

----------


## yohyoi

Lobdell gonna write Wally. Kill me now. Dick lost Roy as his best friend to Jason. Now, Wally is next. Please... just stop... I ain't reading any DC comics for sure but this. This just makes me angry. It has been an endless pit of shit.

----------


## king81992

> Lobdell gonna write Wally. Kill me now. Dick lost Roy as his best friend to Jason. Now, Wally is next. Please... just stop... I ain't reading any DC comics for sure but this. This just makes me angry. It has been an endless pit of shit.


Dick needs to get his memories back before worrying about his friends potentially hanging out with Jason.

----------


## Godlike13

> Lobdell gonna write Wally. Kill me now. Dick lost Roy as his best friend to Jason. Now, Wally is next. Please... just stop... I ain't reading any DC comics for sure but this. This just makes me angry. It has been an endless pit of shit.


Its really is just sad that DC keeps going to Lobdell after these kind of shifts. First Ric, now Wally. I don't get it.

----------


## Arsenal

> Its really is just sad that DC keeps going to Lobdell after these kind of shifts. First Ric, now Wally. I don't get it.


If I had to guess, it could be them giving him a book he wants to write (Wally) in return for doing them a solid by accepting a last minute assignment nobody wanted (Ric). The whole “redemption” thing is one of the things that drew him toward Jason in the first place so I can see Wally’s current situation peaking his interest.

----------


## Godlike13

Actually i think this is just Ric all over again. They want to get something with Wally out quick to follow up on him being a hot topic, and to bridge the gap between HiC and whatever. Lobdell and Booth are old school Marvel guys versed in that style. Plus Booth is a Wally fan. So Booth can knock out the art, and then Lobdell can come in and fill in words to it. Giving DC a quick mini to fill the gap.

----------


## Pohzee

Orca's back in the new Frankenstein Gotham's Monsters series. And I'm will to bet there will be not a mention of Nightwing or Blüdhaven. This is why we can't settle for Dick poaching Batman's old rogues.

----------


## Pohzee

At this point Dick and Wally are better suited for a Hard Traveling Heroes book than the Brave and the Bold title that's so often asked for around these parts.

----------


## Ascended

> How does that work, do they ever have to come together and let the other writer know wha they intend to do, we have 3-5 books set in the same city somtimes


I have no idea how it works. I imagine there are editorial edicts in place that cannot be broken, and after that it's just a matter of.....communicating with the other writer/s and editor/s and knocking ideas around until everyone finds a story they want to work with? I'm not sure how DC handles their collaboration but that's basically how it went in my freelance graphic art days. All those creative summits DC has where all the talent gets together has to be for something, right?

But not only does a relationship between two characters with solos get in the way of writers introducing/using different love interests, but it might limit narrative choices too. Like, if you're writing Nightwing and you want to, I dunno, give the guy super powers for a couple years, that might mess up the plans Batgirl's writer has for a six issue arc where the two of them handle a case together. Or whatever. Or if you send Batgirl to space for a year, that's going to look and feel different if she's got a boyfriend back on earth instead of the alien love interest the writer maybe planned on introducing. 

If your character's main love interest has a solo of their own, you basically don't have creative control over one of your biggest supporting cast members. What writer wants to deal with a character they can't dictate?

----------


## lilyrose

> I have no idea how it works. I imagine there are editorial edicts in place that cannot be broken, and after that it's just a matter of.....communicating with the other writer/s and editor/s and knocking ideas around until everyone finds a story they want to work with? I'm not sure how DC handles their collaboration but that's basically how it went in my freelance graphic art days. All those creative summits DC has where all the talent gets together has to be for something, right?
> 
> But not only does a relationship between two characters with solos get in the way of writers introducing/using different love interests, but it might limit narrative choices too. Like, if you're writing Nightwing and you want to, I dunno, give the guy super powers for a couple years, that might mess up the plans Batgirl's writer has for a six issue arc where the two of them handle a case together. Or whatever. Or if you send Batgirl to space for a year, that's going to look and feel different if she's got a boyfriend back on earth instead of the alien love interest the writer maybe planned on introducing. 
> 
> If your character's main love interest has a solo of their own, you basically don't have creative control over one of your biggest supporting cast members. What writer wants to deal with a character they can't dictate?


I was wondering how stuff like this would work when they marry Batman and Catwoman, as expected later this year.

----------


## Badou

It is like a constant trade off between Wally and Dick in who gets fucked over more at DC. It is comical at this point. 

Oh and despite being such close friends both will completely ignore each other's situation like they have been because they are irrelevant to each other's character. A story of Dick being pissed off at himself for wasting all this time calling himself Ric while all this horrible stuff was going on with characters he is supposed to be close with will never happen.

----------


## byrd156

> It is like a constant trade off between Wally and Dick in who gets fucked over more at DC. It is comical at this point. 
> 
> Oh and despite being such close friends both will completely ignore each other's situation like they have been because they are irrelevant to each other's character. A story of Dick being pissed off at himself for wasting all this time calling himself Ric while all this horrible stuff was going on with characters he is supposed to be close with will never happen.


When Dick finally comes back to form I know it's going to be so unsatisfying. I didn't see this managing to last so long. So much awful stuff has happened to him and everyone around him; I feel like it will just be glossed over, forgotten or straight up ignored again. 

Like seriously it feels like Dick is a decade behind everyone in the DCU trapped in his own little bizarro corner. You have all those dead Titans, Dead Roy, Suicidal and Murderous Wally, everything going on in the bat books and I feel like Dick will snap and immediately go back to being Ric once he hears about all the awful stuff going on in the greater DCU.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Its really is just sad that DC keeps going to Lobdell after these kind of shifts. First Ric, now Wally. I don't get it.


Oh I totally get it. Hes the one that follow their direction no question, so hes perfect for directions no other writers want to deal

----------


## Badou

> When Dick finally comes back to form I know it's going to be so unsatisfying. I didn't see this managing to last so long. So much awful stuff has happened to him and everyone around him; I feel like it will just be glossed over, forgotten or straight up ignored again. 
> 
> Like seriously it feels like Dick is a decade behind everyone in the DCU trapped in his own little bizarro corner. You have all those dead Titans, Dead Roy, Suicidal and Murderous Wally, everything going on in the bat books and I feel like Dick will snap and immediately go back to being Ric once he hears about all the awful stuff going on in the greater DCU.


It is something that greatly aggravates me. DC talks about how they want to tell these interconnected stories in their comic universe, but then they have these frustrating situations where you have all these BIG stories and events happening and a character like Dick, who should be deeply involved in all this, will do nothing with it. These are supposed to be his closest friends and allies that have been killed or had their lives ruined and all he does is piss his time away in this Ric nonsense. In which awful writers like a Lobdell spew garbage about how this Ric story is supposed to be "inspiring" and is what Dick would have wanted which is crazy, and even when he gets his memories back he will still do fuck all. It is what always happens. 

When Dick returns he should hate himself for not being there for the people he is supposed to be close with. He should be FUCKING PISSED that no one slapped him in his face and got Raven or Lilith to fix him immediately and that he missed Wally killing all these heroes like Roy, but no. We get stories where Lobdell uses Babs to talk down the readers for not accepting Ric when this whole thing has gone on far longer than anyone expected instead of stories that would actually make sense and are what would be interesting. 

Even when Dick got shot in the head or had his identity exposed to the world those events barely caused any reaction to the greater DCU. There was like a brief mention of it by Donna in Titans about him getting shot, but then nothing. Not even Damian has mentioned it. Usually just Babs and occasionally Bruce are used to excuse away all the need for more DCU characters dealing with things like this, but it all feels just so fake and pointless in the end.

----------


## WonderNight

So I was just reading some of Cassandra's batgirl run. I didn't know she moved to bludhevan. Also what happened to nightwing?

I'm liking it so far but damn they went out if there way to make bludhevan as gritty and dirty as possible. But that tone dosen't fit nightwing at all. (it fits batman) when I think nightwing I think fun, sexy and cool not dark and gritty.

If dick is going to stay in bludhevan DC really needs to start having the city reflect the hero.

----------


## Aahz

> So I was just reading some of Cassandra's batgirl run. I didn't know she moved to bludhevan. Also what happened to nightwing?


During that time, he left after the death of Blockbuster (seriously even Ric is better then the Nightwing comnics from that era).




> when I think nightwing I think fun, sexy and cool not dark and gritty.


That's a common misconception about Nightwing.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> When Dick finally comes back to form I know it's going to be so unsatisfying. I didn't see this managing to last so long. So much awful stuff has happened to him and everyone around him; I feel like it will just be glossed over, forgotten or straight up ignored again. 
> 
> Like seriously it feels like Dick is a decade behind everyone in the DCU trapped in his own little bizarro corner. You have all those dead Titans, Dead Roy, Suicidal and Murderous Wally, everything going on in the bat books and I feel like Dick will snap and immediately go back to being Ric once he hears about all the awful stuff going on in the greater DCU.


I was coming to this thread to post exactly this. The new Wally book is so indicative of how screwed Dick is going to be even if he goes back to being Dick. Either they gloss over everything and completely rob his character and stories of any weight, or they do what they're doing with Wally and give us a book we don't want specifically because everything that's happened is just not salvageable. The creative team doesn't really inspire any confidence, and I doubt the Nightwing book would be any better off if he did get his memories back anyway.

----------


## Pohzee

I've been biding my time with Ric expecting a big return with a solid creative team when the time comes. I figured why spin their wheels if they don't have something bigger that they're waiting on?

But oh man, if he comes back to someone like Lobdell or Percy or Jurgens... I'll be done

----------


## dietrich

https://twitter.com/JarrulusX

----------


## Lazurus33

Old, but a nice story

Why Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson are DC's Greatest Love Story

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/0...est-love-story

----------


## Godlike13

> I've been biding my time with Ric expecting a big return with a solid creative team when the time comes. I figured why spin their wheels if they don't have something bigger that they're waiting on?
> 
> But oh man, if he comes back to someone like Lobdell or Percy or Jurgens... I'll be done


And after Ric Nightwing’s profile could very well be at a new low. We’ll be lucky if they go back to him being a vetting character for new creators. It’s concerning though, cause this Nightwing’s team recruitment troubles started even before Ric. After Seeley left they didn’t seem to have a clue as to what to do and began the musical chairs of seemingly whomever they could find for an arc.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Rac7d*

> Old, but a nice story
> 
> Why Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson are DC's Greatest Love Story
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/0...est-love-story


I cant wait for Young Justice to come back

----------


## Ascended

> I was wondering how stuff like this would work when they marry Batman and Catwoman, as expected later this year.


I dont know. I mean, although I assume there's challenges in communication and story limitations in these situations, it also happens enough (Clark-Diana, Ollie-Dinah, etc) that it's clearly not impossible to overcome. And Selina and Bruce are under the same editorial umbrella, which likely makes things easier since plans and conversations don't have to cross offices, just creators. 

They could also always switch stuff up; showcase the marriage exclusively in one title (Bat-Cat or something?) and leave the solo's as-is (with the marriage in the background but nothing more) or cancel Catwoman so she doesn't have a solo.....who knows?

----------


## yohyoi

It has been a bad year. Arguably Dick Grayson's worst since the downfall of the New Teen Titans or the Tarantula rape. It's very hard to hope and be optimistic. It's very hard to see a future where our boy is treated with the respect he deserves. He is fighting against the top management that is supposed to help him. Worse is that they won't listen to the fans. They are happy to put him on their pet writers who would rather write other characters. There is no passion.

But all of these made me realize, how much Dick Grayson has been a great role model in my life. There is no question he is cool and badass. But Dick Grayson represents a lot more than that. He represents facing and accepting  the changes we experience in our life. I grew up with him from Robin to Nightwing. He taught me how to be a good man and find my place in the world. He also taught me to forgive and heal. I had a hard time growing up. Sometimes I want to just end it all, but Dick moved forward smiling and trying his best to be happy. He accepted the bad things and learned to forgive. I don't want to be Batman. I want to be Nightwing. Life is beautiful. I don't want to waste it being sad and miserable. Lastly, he taught me to be a good big brother and leader to those who look up to me. He taught me to be a good role model to others. That I am not alone and I don't fight the problems in my life alone. It made me stronger. People want to be the loner badass, but I have been there. I was only strong on the outside but inside I continue to doubt myself. It's not weakness to help or ask for help. It makes everyone stronger.

Sorry about the long post. But Dick is loved by a lot of people for a reason. I just want to remind you and give you hope that no matter what happens, DC can't take this from us. Some people say comics are for children only. But comics made this child into the good man I hope I am now. Thank you to all the creative people and fans who pushed Dick Grayson to the heights he is flying right now. The last Flying Grayson might fall but only to inevitably soar higher.

----------


## Godlike13

Man, he has the best name LoL.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So I was just reading some of Cassandra's batgirl run. I didn't know she moved to bludhevan. Also what happened to nightwing?
> 
> I'm liking it so far but damn they went out if there way to make bludhevan as gritty and dirty as possible. But that tone dosen't fit nightwing at all. (it fits batman) when I think nightwing I think fun, sexy and cool not dark and gritty.
> 
> If dick is going to stay in bludhevan DC really needs to start having the city reflect the hero.


The fun sexy Nightwing didn't actually start until Tim and Tom were on board. Higgins Nightwing was closer to Dixon Nightwing. While the fun part in Batman and Robin was to contrast Damian. He's fun when he's partnering to someone like Damian, Bruce, and sometimes even Tim, but In solo or Titans he's more serious. 

So you can say that the fun sexy Nightwing is popularized by fans liking his interaction with the rest of the Batfam and all his love interest, and then Tim and Tom followed up on that since they said themselves they made the fanservice for Tumblr and make it official.

When in his Nightwing Seeley wrote Dick thinking "you gotta make it sexy and exciting like Nightwing" that's considered out of character by some old fans... sorry... I also consider it out of character since he's usually not that self-aware.

----------


## Pohzee

It's infuriating when he's reduced to that. Or any other broad characterization that reduces his complexity.

----------


## Aahz

> but In solo or Titans he's more serious.


Exactly in Titans or during his time with the Outsiders he was usually the most serious member on the team.

----------


## WonderNight

> It's infuriating when he's reduced to that. Or any other broad characterization that reduces his complexity.


 I wasn't talking about dick's character or personality. I was talking the nightwing ip/ concept.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> It has been a bad year. Arguably Dick Grayson's worst since the downfall of the New Teen Titans or the Tarantula rape. It's very hard to hope and be optimistic. It's very hard to see a future where our boy is treated with the respect he deserves. He is fighting against the top management that is supposed to help him. Worse is that they won't listen to the fans. They are happy to put him on their pet writers who would rather write other characters. There is no passion.
> 
> But all of these made me realize, how much Dick Grayson has been a great role model in my life. There is no question he is cool and badass. But Dick Grayson represents a lot more than that. He represents facing and accepting  the changes we experience in our life. I grew up with him from Robin to Nightwing. He taught me how to be a good man and find my place in the world. He also taught me to forgive and heal. I had a hard time growing up. Sometimes I want to just end it all, but Dick moved forward smiling and trying his best to be happy. He accepted the bad things and learned to forgive. I don't want to be Batman. I want to be Nightwing. Life is beautiful. I don't want to waste it being sad and miserable. Lastly, he taught me to be a good big brother and leader to those who look up to me. He taught me to be a good role model to others. That I am not alone and I don't fight the problems in my life alone. It made me stronger. People want to be the loner badass, but I have been there. I was only strong on the outside but inside I continue to doubt myself. It's not weakness to help or ask for help. It makes everyone stronger.
> 
> Sorry about the long post. But Dick is loved by a lot of people for a reason. I just want to remind you and give you hope that no matter what happens, DC can't take this from us. Some people say comics are for children only. But comics made this child into the good man I hope I am now. Thank you to all the creative people and fans who pushed Dick Grayson to the heights he is flying right now. The last Flying Grayson might fall but only to inevitably soar higher.


I feel very much the same way about him.  Growing with him from Robin to Nightwing and the positivity he represented despite his beginnings.  I even went so far as to write a letter expressing that and the disappointment with the current direction.   Of course there was no response because as fans we arent as important.

----------


## Ascended

> I wasn't talking about dick's character or personality. I was talking the nightwing ip/ concept.


As an IP, if you're talking about brand recognition and the optics and all that, you could far, far worse than marketing Nightwing as the "fun, sexy" alternative to the usually dour street level heroes like Bruce, Daredevil, etc. It's definitely something to lean into and have fun with, because the fans clearly have fun with it and it helps provide a sense of identity for the property. I mean, a good joke about Dick's ass (and a panel to go along with it) will probably get far more attention on social media than any marketing initiative DC cooks up. Fan service isn't always a bad thing and you can make it work for you, if you spin it right.  :Big Grin: 

As a character, naturally Dick has more emotional range than that. Actually, I think he's got more range than most. He can be the serious, brooding dark knight or the happy joking bright knight, or anything in between, and it all fits and works for him. Most of the time, a character gets locked into one side of that equation or the other; always angsty or always funny, rarely both in equal measure. Dick has such great range as a character, a hero, and a IP.

----------


## Godlike13

_NIGHTWING #64

written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by BRUNO REDONDO
variant cover by WARREN LOUW
Blüdhaven explodes in violence as a riot erupts in the streets. Ric can’t face this alone, so he’ll have to enlist the support of the Nightwings. Meanwhile, Talon has taken Bea captive to lure Ric into his grasp and reintroduce him (for the first time, in Ric’s memory) to the Court of Owls.
ON SALE 09.18.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | RATED T
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details_.

Looks like Ric finally got some new clothes. Though how is he not basically Nightwing at this point looking like that. This is just so dumb, every thing that comes out of Ric’s mouth is just continuously contradicted by what they have him do. Is there seriously no one to point this out to these clueless creators. That by having him say this over and over, and then have him do this. It just makes everyone involved look dumb. Including themselves. 
But at this point I think they are probably now just trying to conform more out of desperation, while at the same time still don’t want to just throw Ric out window. Cause of course then they would have to come up with something else, and that would require more work then anyone on this book wants to put in. So now we have this Ric that even dresses like Nightwing, because that will appease fans and maybe keep the book in the top 100. Boy is this Nightwing team the cream of the crop, LoL. Ugh, whatever. I see that the variant artists still want nothing to do with Ric or the Nightwings.

----------


## Pohzee

He's not Nightwing, he's CW Nightwing.

I do dig that hair though.

----------


## Rac7d*

Still Ric in september, I am a little scared here now
Titans season  starts in October I dont want a second go round where dick grayson is getting the most media attention he ever has and He is not their to bask in it

----------


## Godlike13

Dick is going to be Ric into 2020. Hell its probably gonna last longer then Grayson even. It’s not going to end until someone or something like a new initiative makes the Bat office and this Nightwing team stop. Cause it’s less work to just ride it out with protected good old boy creators, then end it and try to find new creators to come up with something else. The comic division doesn’t care what other divisions do. At least when it comes to certain characters.

----------


## Badou

So 11 months into Ric they give him some shitty looking blue costume? What is the fucking point now? Who cares? The complete lack of any self awareness this run has had is just staggering.

----------


## king81992

When will this Ric nonsense be over?!!! DC is trolling the readers at this point.

----------


## dietrich

> So 11 months into Ric they give him some shitty looking blue costume? What is the fucking point now? Who cares? The complete lack of any self awareness this run has had is just staggering.


Sadly I think everyone behind this sorry direction are very aware of what they are doing and how shitty it is. They are very creative. Reducing his appeal via shit characterisation  while stalling till batman's isolation is over.

Didio is crafty.

----------


## Restingvoice

That blue costume is not _that_ shitty. 

That dirt paint mask _is_ though

Get this one instead

D9BvLbDXUAEIK7d.jpg

You seriously need to check your email, Nightwing. Check out an ALL-NEW story from 
@BRIANMBENDIS
 and 
@NickDerington
 in BATMAN GIANT #12! Available 6/16 exclusively at 
@walmart

from Batman official twitter

----------


## Restingvoice

Or, if there's a rich fan who hasn't got it already, Grayson Omnibus gets a New Edition in August. 

https://www.dccomics.com/graphic-nov...us-new-edition

GRAYSON: THE SUPERSPY OMNIBUS NEW EDITION
U.S. Price: $99.99
ON SALE 8/21
Collects all of Dick Grayson’s adventures as Agent 37 for the spy organization known as Spyral under a new title! Faking his death, and entering a game of cat and mouse, Dick must take down Spyral from the inside in order to save his loved ones. This omnibus edition collects GRAYSON #1-20, SECRET ORIGINS #8, GRAYSON ANNUAL #1-3, GRAYSON: FUTURE’S END #1, ROBIN WAR #1-2 and NIGHTWING: REBIRTH #1, with appearances by Batman, Superman and more!

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Huh, does anyone know what's new about it?

----------


## Restingvoice

Judging by the description it's simply a new printing. It's verbatim to the first edition description.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> Dick is going to be Ric into 2020. Hell its probably gonna last longer then Grayson even. Its not going to end until someone or something like a new initiative makes the Bat office and this Nightwing team stop. Cause its less work to just ride it out with protected good old boy creators, then end it and try to find new creators to come up with something else. The comic division doesnt care what other divisions do. At least when it comes to certain characters.


Honestly I still scroll through every new solicitation half expecting to read In a dramatic twist Dick Grayson has recovered his memories as Nightwing! But how will he get out of the *insert dangerous situation* hes gotten himself into as Ric? And how will his family react?
Only a matter of time. Probably not as soon as some hope but probably not as long as some fear.

----------


## Claude

> Or, if there's a rich fan who hasn't got it already, Grayson Omnibus gets a New Edition in August. 
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/graphic-nov...us-new-edition
> 
> GRAYSON: THE SUPERSPY OMNIBUS NEW EDITION
> U.S. Price: $99.99
> ON SALE 8/21
> Collects all of Dick Grayson’s adventures as Agent 37 for the spy organization known as Spyral under a new title! Faking his death, and entering a game of cat and mouse, Dick must take down Spyral from the inside in order to save his loved ones. This omnibus edition collects GRAYSON #1-20, SECRET ORIGINS #8, GRAYSON ANNUAL #1-3, GRAYSON: FUTURE’S END #1, ROBIN WAR #1-2 and NIGHTWING: REBIRTH #1, with appearances by Batman, Superman and more!


It always seems odd how thoroughly King and Seeley's Nightwing #30 has been erased from history with these collections.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Sadly I think everyone behind this sorry direction are very aware of what they are doing and how shitty it is. They are very creative. Reducing his appeal via shit characterisation  while stalling till batman's isolation is over.
> 
> Didio is crafty.


Its some kind of conspiracy, is it a suit it looks like a motorcycle jack kind of like what YJ dick wears

----------


## CPSparkles

can we pick up from where Grayson left off and have a do over please?

----------


## Jcady59

This is off topic(but definitely more optimistic than what Dick has going on) but if anyone on here is a toy collector there are pre orders up for the dc multiverse line Dick Grayson as Batman. This is like the only DickBats fugue as far as I know so Im definitely getting it, just thought the figure collectors in Dicks fan base would want to know.

----------


## K. Jones

> It always seems odd how thoroughly King and Seeley's Nightwing #30 has been erased from history with these collections.


Yeah! Like I remember that issue being pretty problematic. And obviously it was also this carryover from the last few panels of Forever Evil and then the scrapped Dick Grayson Funeral Issue that Tynion did (that I have all the uncolored pages of somewhere). Obviously Grayson begins perfectly so it didn't really need that inciting Nightwing # 30 issue to tell its story, between the first issue of the series and the Secret Origins short. But I mean even the Divergence 6-page thing with Hal Jordan's nephew on the plane made it in ... and it's a shame to lose out particularly on Janin's work in NW#30, since it carries over, introduces Helena's new look, and has that creepy ass subway mime Fist of Cain guy.

I have the Omnibus, it's pretty extensive, to the point where the only "Agent Grayson" stuff not in it is Eternal (for a single cameo), Batman & Robin Eternal and Midnighter appearances, plus that single Detective two-parter that he barely factors into. It's pretty totally complete. I'd hate for a new edition to come out and add something I forgot about though.

I'm just waiting on that Tim Seeley Nightwing omnibus. Make it happen, DC.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Even though its a rip of we are robin, i feel like the nightwing cop idea would've been better if dick never lost his memories.

----------


## byrd156

> He's not Nightwing, he's CW Nightwing.
> 
> I do dig that hair though.


I feel like his hair is the only indicator that time is changing and once it's grown back in this whole Ric mess will be over.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Arsenal

> I feel like his hair is the only indicator that time is changing and once it's grown back in this whole Ric mess will be over.


And thus it’ll be revealed that Nightwing’s Kryptonite is and always has been a buzz cut.

----------


## byrd156

> And thus it’ll be revealed that Nightwing’s Kryptonite is and always has been a buzz cut.


Makes the most sense to me. Generally when his hair goes crazy his book sales drop along with the quality, most of the time. I do enjoy some Mulletwing from time to time.

----------


## Rac7d*

I can't wait for some kind of Promo image for Nightwing from Titans we needs somthing good for the fans to go wild about and Show DC what their missing
I can''t belive this fan project has 7 Mill views, it holds up well



and the death battle was incredible

----------


## byrd156

> I can't wait for some kind of Promo image for Nightwing from Titans we needs somthing good for the fans to go wild about and Show DC what their missing
> I can''t belive this fan project has 7 Mill views, it holds up well
> 
> 
> 
> and the death battle was incredible


I remember posting about the series when it first came out. Very cool fan stuff.

----------


## nightbird

> I can't wait for some kind of Promo image for Nightwing from Titans we needs somthing good for the fans to go wild about and Show DC what their missing
> I can''t belive this fan project has 7 Mill views, it holds up well
> 
> 
> 
> and the death battle was incredible


They could do that Nightwing series without mixing Red Hood at the end, though. And I cant even go into Death Battle comment section without reading miles of salty comments from Daredevil fans. 

But all those Nightwing/Robin videos show how actually sad the fact that DC cant see the true potential of all their characters.

----------


## Restingvoice

> And thus itll be revealed that Nightwings Kryptonite is and always has been a buzz cut.


You're joking but when some section of fandom view him as a male model a haircut will do some damage.

----------


## godisawesome

Okay, this may seem like a weird, random question coming primarily from a Tim Drake fan suddenly appearing in the Dick Grayson thread, but...

...Holy $#!+, have they really been having Lobdell plot the series and making Fabian Nicieza do the dialogue and stuff this entire time for the “Ric” debacle?!?!

I mean, _why_ do this again? New 52 Teen Titans kind of proved they’re mostly just wasting Nicieza’s time trying to polish a turd into gold, and I’d say their two careers show who’s *actually* better at this whole _writing_ thing.

This is all just about making sure there’s another middle man between editorial and the published book, isn’t it? One more stop to place a “yes-man.”

----------


## Rac7d*

> They could do that Nightwing series without mixing Red Hood at the end, though. And I cant even go into Death Battle comment section without reading miles of salty comments from Daredevil fans. 
> 
> But all those Nightwing/Robin videos show how actually sad the fact that DC cant see the true potential of all their characters.


I hope and pray we can get a spin-off from Titans if it does well

----------


## CPSparkles

> They could do that Nightwing series without mixing Red Hood at the end, though. And I can’t even go into Death Battle comment section without reading miles of salty comments from Daredevil fans. 
> 
> But all those Nightwing/Robin videos show how actually sad the fact that DC can’t see the true potential of all their characters.


The powers and the people calling the shots at DC are hilariously out of touch with what the needs of today's fans/market wants. They are also not very experimental or bold.

----------


## Godlike13

#61 preview,
https://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2019/06...-nightwing-61/

Every issue with Ric starts the same. At this point do these out of touch creators truly think new readers are flocking to this with every issue that they need this constant Ric recap, or is it that since no one actually gives a crap about what they do or the quality of their work it’s just a easy way to fill up half a page. The trade with Ric has to be even more brutal, with every 20 pages Ric giving a constant recap.

----------


## Restingvoice

> #61 preview,
> https://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2019/06...-nightwing-61/
> 
> Every issue with Ric starts the same. At this point do these out of touch creators truly think new readers are flocking to this with every issue that they need this constant Ric recap, or is it that since no one actually gives a crap about what they do or the quality of their work it’s just a easy way to fill up half a page. The trade with Ric has to be even more brutal, with every 20 pages Ric giving a constant recap.


Scott Lobdell's intro in all of his New 52 issues is like that. Always start with a recap.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Okay, this may seem like a weird, random question coming primarily from a Tim Drake fan suddenly appearing in the Dick Grayson thread, but...
> 
> ...Holy $#!+, have they really been having Lobdell plot the series and making Fabian Nicieza do the dialogue and stuff this entire time for the “Ric” debacle?!?!
> 
> I mean, _why_ do this again? New 52 Teen Titans kind of proved they’re mostly just wasting Nicieza’s time trying to polish a turd into gold, and I’d say their two careers show who’s *actually* better at this whole _writing_ thing.
> 
> This is all just about making sure there’s another middle man between editorial and the published book, isn’t it? One more stop to place a “yes-man.”


Nicieza left the series and there was another writer set to take his place, but there was some issues with him (can't remember at the moment) so Lobdell wrote a few by himself then they added someone else and then Jurgens took over.  It's been a trainwreck all the way around.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They could do that Nightwing series without mixing Red Hood at the end, though. And I cant even go into Death Battle comment section without reading miles of salty comments from Daredevil fans. 
> 
> But all those Nightwing/Robin videos show how actually sad the fact that DC cant see the true potential of all their characters.


I wish they did a season 2 of the web series

----------


## Jackalope89

> They could do that Nightwing series without mixing Red Hood at the end, though. And I can’t even go into Death Battle comment section without reading miles of salty comments from Daredevil fans. 
> 
> But all those Nightwing/Robin videos show how actually sad the fact that DC can’t see the true potential of all their characters.


Can't forget fanfics. The non-slash ones that is.

----------


## byrd156

> I wish they did a season 2 of the web series


They always could.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They always could.


I feel like dc would shut it down

----------


## byrd156

> I feel like dc would shut it down


They can't unless they are making money off of it which they weren't.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They can't unless they are making money off of it which they weren't.


Warner aint Disney but if its their property they can do anything that they feels threatened their works integrity however they interpret it so

----------


## Aahz

> I wish they did a season 2 of the web series


The Actor has a short Guest Appearence (starting around 17:45) as Dick in the final episode of Season 2 of the Red Hood Fan series. And might have a bigger role if they do a 3rd season.

----------


## dietrich

You know if Ric is always having to save the Nightwings why is he not doing this himself. He's still a crime fighter only he's reduced himself to sidekick to a bunch of people who are less skilled than him. That's just daft.

Stop being Daft. Those years as Robin and nightwing are meaningless then what the hell are you doing being a sidekick to a bunch of amateur crime fighters?

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Every issue is like a filler episode of arrow/flash from the CW

----------


## Rac7d*

> You know if Ric is always having to save the Nightwings why is he not doing this himself. He's still a crime fighter only he's reduced himself to sidekick to a bunch of people who are less skilled than him. That's just daft.
> 
> Stop being Daft. Those years as Robin and nightwing are meaningless then what the hell are you doing being a sidekick to a bunch of amateur crime fighters?


He doesnt want to commit to it. Just like he wont commit to a job or apartment. That poor new girl is gonna have to die to break ric......

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Doesn’t the Nightwings thing stem from writers thinking Dick can’t work alone (as a character) and would always need someone to bounce off of. I could’ve sworn James Ty said it in a tweet or interview. But it actually makes zero sense with how much character and the many traits he has, arguably the most out of all the Batfamily members.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Doesn’t the Nightwings thing stem from writers thinking Dick can’t work alone (as a character) and would always need someone to bounce off of. I could’ve sworn James Ty said it in a tweet or interview. But it actually makes zero sense with how much character and the many traits he has, arguably the most out of all the Batfamily members.


Tynion actually said “Dick works as a support character”, not even “bounce from others”. What a pain.

----------


## astro@work

> Every issue is like a filler episode of arrow/flash from the CW


Except in those CW filler episodes, Barry doesn't suddenly go by the name Harry and lament ever being Flash...and Oliver doesn't stop bathing and forget Felicity.

----------


## Ascended

> Warner aint Disney but if its their property they can do anything that they feels threatened their works integrity however they interpret it so


Actually, I believe they can't. They could try to bring legal action but if the product isn't being sold to consumers and isn't claiming to own the IP's, there isn't a lot WB or DC could do, legally. 

Free fan-made products like those web series aren't like, say, Family Guy having Mickey Mouse show up for a cameo without getting Disney's "okay." The web series don't generate any revenue (as far as Im aware?) while Family Guy does, and are basically nothing more than elaborate fan fiction. Now, my wife is the law student so I *could* be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure WB would have no grounds to do anything.

They could try to intimidate the show creators and scare them into abandoning their project, but legally? Nothing WB could actually do about it.

----------


## king81992

> Every issue is like a filler episode of arrow/flash from the CW


Even the worse CW filler episodes are better than this.

----------


## byrd156

> Warner ain’t Disney but if it’s their property they can do anything that they feels threatened their works integrity however they interpret it so


I know they CAN but they won't. Nothing happened with the first season and this hypothetical season would seem fine to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

Brenton Was just nominated, for a teen choice awards,
If I see something that can benefit the character Dick Grayson or Nightwing i like to post it here
i dont think many of us are teens me included, but votes for him help the show and the character

Choice Action TV Actor
Ben McKenzie, Gotham
Brandon Routh, DC’s Legends of Tomorrow
*Brenton Thwaites, Titans*
Grant Gustin, The Flash
Lucas Till, MacGyver
Stephen Amell, Arrow

[IMG]https://sfzone1-legalbran*******.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Titans-Robin-Costume-Full-Reveal.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Jackalope89

I will admit, Brenton is about how I would imagine Dick in real life. 

The overly violent tendencies of the show though, that's a little different.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

The thing about violence is that it isn't easy. I'm not sure about you guys, but it's tremendously difficult for me to hurt another person, especially physically. But once you do, it can also be difficult to stop, at least in my experience. As far as I'm concerned, the idea that even good people like Dick can lose themselves to violence is pretty consistent with reality. It's not just a "pow" sound effect being thrown up when you hit someone, you're actively hurting another living thing. For characters like Dick who are constantly finding themselves up against the worst society has to offer, what's difficult can start to become easy. That's how I look at the excessive violence on the show. It's like a proper examination of what it means to be as capable and dangerous as they are in the comics, imo.

Anyways, DC Comics is still going through a lot of shifts, and the newest one is the shut down of Vertigo (arguably, it's being absorbed by Black Label) and the renaming of DC Zoom and Ink to DC Kids and just DC. The important thing here is that the Dick Grayson graphic novel as part of DC Ink, is now a general  or "true" DC book, which might benefit it in the long run (advertising it as an important DC book and not just their DC Ink imprint might increase demand, however small that difference is). These books are the future of comics as more and more buyers are found away from the direct market, but at bookstores and all that. Which is why it's great to see it reflected as a proper DC book going forward. Not much else to say beyond that, but at least there is some sort of future for Dick Grayson at DC that hasn't been tainted yet.

----------


## Aahz

I just read the last "Ric"-Arc.

I find it kind of inconsistent how they handle the amnesia thing. On the one side they are telling that he is just relying on his muscle memory, but when you look on his sparring against "Nightwing Red" it seems like he has most of his combat experience back.

And sofar he still succeeds easily at everything, the amnesia seems not really to effect his skills, and it is never really shown that the other Nightwings (who are all more or less experienced Policeman) can for example do something he can't anymore.

----------


## Ascended

> I will admit, Brenton is about how I would imagine Dick in real life. 
> 
> The overly violent tendencies of the show though, that's a little different.


Haven't watched the show yet. I'll wait for YJ to finish, get a month's sub, and binge stuff then. But is the violence in Titans really overt, or just what vigilantism would actually look like if people really did dress up in costumes and punch criminals into submission? 

I mean, in the real world, that's a level of violence you don't (usually) even get in the military.

----------


## byrd156

> Haven't watched the show yet. I'll wait for YJ to finish, get a month's sub, and binge stuff then. But is the violence in Titans really overt, or just what vigilantism would actually look like if people really did dress up in costumes and punch criminals into submission? 
> 
> I mean, in the real world, that's a level of violence you don't (usually) even get in the military.


It's really extreme, stabbing guys in the balls, dragging faces across glass. Really unnecessary stuff. I love stuff like Oldboy, the Raid, John Wick but there is a reason the violence fits those movies but doesn't work here. You can easily do the same idea without it being so in your face about it, the dark and edgy feels so laughably fan filmy. 

Sound effects like bone breaking on hits, snapping arms without having a bunch of blood spurt out when it happens conveys the same message as with what Titans was "trying" to do. Like the fight scenes don't feel like a hero trying to subdue a bunch of henchmen or villains but an R rated action star trying to take out as many people as possible without any regard for them, himself or what he's doing. Like he's just there to hurt people and that's about it.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Is anyone else more interested in Titans S2 than YJ? Titans Dick felt more like TNBA Dick and I would love to see more of that. Plus live action Nightwing!

----------


## byrd156

> Is anyone else more interested in Titans S2 than YJ? Titans Dick felt more like TNBA Dick and I would love to see more of that. Plus live action Nightwing!


I'm more excited about Garth, Donna and Hawk & Dove than I am of Dick in Titans.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> It's really extreme, stabbing guys in the balls, dragging faces across glass. Really unnecessary stuff. I love stuff like Oldboy, the Raid, John Wick but there is a reason the violence fits those movies but doesn't work here. You can easily do the same idea without it being so in your face about it, the dark and edgy feels so laughably fan filmy. 
> 
> Sound effects like bone breaking on hits, snapping arms without having a bunch of blood spurt out when it happens conveys the same message as with what Titans was "trying" to do. Like the fight scenes don't feel like a hero trying to subdue a bunch of henchmen or villains but an R rated action star trying to take out as many people as possible without any regard for them, himself or what he's doing. Like he's just there to hurt people and that's about it.


Ah, I got ya. 

I'll be giving the show a chance when I do eventually get the DCU sub but I haven't been terribly impressed with what little I've seen. Admittedly, that's just the trailers which even the show's fans say are awful. Still, it's Dick, so I'll give it a shot. I'm mostly just there for YJ because my kids and I watched the first two seasons.....though I think my daughter is gonna have to miss this latest one, if it's as bloody as I've heard and the few YouTube clips I've seen are any indication.  :Frown:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ah, I got ya. 
> 
> I'll be giving the show a chance when I do eventually get the DCU sub but I haven't been terribly impressed with what little I've seen. Admittedly, that's just the trailers which even the show's fans say are awful. Still, it's Dick, so I'll give it a shot. I'm mostly just there for YJ because my kids and I watched the first two seasons.....though I think my daughter is gonna have to miss this latest one, if it's as bloody as I've heard and the few YouTube clips I've seen are any indication.


Hey  its more raw violence no more panning away no profanity or sex. Everything on SCU is suppose to be for a mature audience

----------


## Schumiac

Errrr... is it me or did "Ric the Cabbie" need to be lectured on metahumans by one of the wanna-be Nightwings in that last issue (I only skim and scanned it)?.. Sgh...

----------


## Godlike13

The wanna be Nightwings lecture Ric about everything. But that’s what heroes tend do with their sidekicks.

----------


## byrd156

> Hey  it’s more raw violence no more panning away no profanity or sex. Everything on SCU is suppose to be for a mature audience


There's nothing wrong with being mature, the problem is it's poor execution. Also "everything" on DCU is for a mature audience? I'm sure Stargirl is totally aimed towards that.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> There's nothing wrong with being mature, the problem is it's poor execution. Also "everything" on DCU is for a mature audience? I'm sure Stargirl is totally aimed towards that.


I think _Stargirl_ will probably be aimed at the same audience as, say, _Flash_ and _Supergirl._

----------


## byrd156

> I think _Stargirl_ will probably be aimed at the same audience as, say, _Flash_ and _Supergirl._


Of course, I wouldn't necessarily call that a mature audience though.

----------


## Jackalope89

44 seconds; brotherly bonding.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Pre-ordered Titans S1 for bluray. It's coming out in a few weeks so I'm hyped about that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There's nothing wrong with being mature, the problem is it's poor execution. Also "everything" on DCU is for a mature audience? I'm sure Stargirl is totally aimed towards that.


Does I am expecting the the drama of CW show combined with the action of Titans

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm more excited about Garth, Donna and Hawk & Dove than I am of Dick in Titans.


I still need wally and Roy
the fab five will be complete

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

A lot of things are indicating Wally will be the Flash in the Stargirl show, which is not the same continuity as Titans. It's the same situation as Vic being in Doom Patrol, the only chance for team-ups is crossovers. Kinda unfortunate, but also prevents the Titans show from being too overwhelmed in characters, while also giving each character their time to shine. Roy is kinda the outlier when it comes to the Fab Five and core Titans in general right now, since his only big appearances are in Arrow which is ending next season, and there's nothing lined up for the DCU service yet either. 

The DCU service is also up in the air, since the only new content we know is coming is the rest of YJ: Outsiders, the Harley Quinn animated series, Stargirl, Titans S2, and Doom Patrol S2. Nothing else has been greenlit, and most rumours are pointing to the service being assimilated into whatever the Time Warner streaming service looks like. So for all we know, our only live-action Nightwing content for the foreseeable future may only last for however long he actually is Nightwing in Titans S2 (maybe the back half of the season, maybe the last 5 minutes of the finale, who knows). Here's hoping for more though, since Titans is seemingly the DCU's most popular show (while being their cheapest to produce) and has done pretty well for Netflix as well, apparently.

----------


## Rac7d*

> A lot of things are indicating Wally will be the Flash in the Stargirl show, which is not the same continuity as Titans. It's the same situation as Vic being in Doom Patrol, the only chance for team-ups is crossovers. Kinda unfortunate, but also prevents the Titans show from being too overwhelmed in characters, while also giving each character their time to shine. Roy is kinda the outlier when it comes to the Fab Five and core Titans in general right now, since his only big appearances are in Arrow which is ending next season, and there's nothing lined up for the DCU service yet either. 
> 
> The DCU service is also up in the air, since the only new content we know is coming is the rest of YJ: Outsiders, the Harley Quinn animated series, Stargirl, Titans S2, and Doom Patrol S2. Nothing else has been greenlit, and most rumours are pointing to the service being assimilated into whatever the Time Warner streaming service looks like. So for all we know, our only live-action Nightwing content for the foreseeable future may only last for however long he actually is Nightwing in Titans S2 (maybe the back half of the season, maybe the last 5 minutes of the finale, who knows). Here's hoping for more though, since Titans is seemingly the DCU's most popular show (while being their cheapest to produce) and has done pretty well for Netflix as well, apparently.


I dont want to rule anything out yet Best bromance can happen


also I hope everyone here is voting

----------


## Godlike13

Does Donna and Dick count as a bromance?

----------


## byrd156

> I still need wally and Roy
> the fab five will be complete


I doubt that they will show up. I want them to but I doubt it.

----------


## byrd156

> Does I am expecting the the drama of CW show combined with the action of Titans


Um what?  :Confused:

----------


## yohyoi

Riiiiccccc!!! Meh. At least Jurgens is writing compared to *shudder* Lobdell. Comic industry is toxic to women because they keep on hiring a sexual harasser. Who would want their daughter, sister or wife working with these kind of people?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Since no one else has brought it up yet, thought it was worth mentioning the new Teen Titans Go! vs. Teen Titans movie is coming sometime this year. It's still a TTG movie first and foremost, so expect it to be kinda funny and not much else, but it's looking pretty nice imo. Obviously, the fact that the TTG and 2003 TT casts are meeting means there are two different Robins meeting, but we also have Sean Maher as Nightwing (as in, the same Nightwing from the DCnAU movies, like Bad Blood) as part of the cast spotlight. So, maybe it'll only be 2 minutes worth of screen time, but it's at least not just a cameo. Three different versions of Dick Grayson getting varying levels of focus in an animated movie is pretty cool. I'm expecting more cool moments from this than I am from Batman: Hush in terms of Dick Grayson content tbh.

----------


## byrd156

> Since no one else has brought it up yet, thought it was worth mentioning the new Teen Titans Go! vs. Teen Titans movie is coming sometime this year. It's still a TTG movie first and foremost, so expect it to be kinda funny and not much else, but it's looking pretty nice imo. Obviously, the fact that the TTG and 2003 TT casts are meeting means there are two different Robins meeting, but we also have Sean Maher as Nightwing (as in, the same Nightwing from the DCnAU movies, like Bad Blood) as part of the cast spotlight. So, maybe it'll only be 2 minutes worth of screen time, but it's at least not just a cameo. Three different versions of Dick Grayson getting varying levels of focus in an animated movie is pretty cool. I'm expecting more cool moments from this than I am from Batman: Hush in terms of Dick Grayson content tbh.


You can see a bunch of different universe Titans like DCnAU Nightwing in the background of the trailer.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> You can see a bunch of different universe Titans like DCnAU Nightwing in the background of the trailer.


That's why I brought up the casting information. Sean Maher as Nightwing is the only one who was mentioned, and that was together with other major characters like the Trigons and Santa. That means he's not just there for the big group shots as a cameo, we'll likely hear at least a couple lines.

----------


## Frontier

> Since no one else has brought it up yet, thought it was worth mentioning the new Teen Titans Go! vs. Teen Titans movie is coming sometime this year. It's still a TTG movie first and foremost, so expect it to be kinda funny and not much else, but it's looking pretty nice imo. Obviously, the fact that the TTG and 2003 TT casts are meeting means there are two different Robins meeting, but we also have Sean Maher as Nightwing (as in, the same Nightwing from the DCnAU movies, like Bad Blood) as part of the cast spotlight. So, maybe it'll only be 2 minutes worth of screen time, but it's at least not just a cameo. Three different versions of Dick Grayson getting varying levels of focus in an animated movie is pretty cool. *I'm expecting more cool moments from this than I am from Batman: Hush in terms of Dick Grayson content tbh.*


His intro scene in _Hush_ looks pretty good though  :Smile: .

----------


## blade48

a what if scenario. what if this Ric stuff isn't going away, how could it all turn out. Ric still drives his cab and likes to hang out in the bar and likes getting into fights but completely ignores his hero stint!

https://captainbrew.tumblr.com/post/...10-years-later

hell what happend. this used to be such a good series and a totally likable character!-(

----------


## Tzigone

I hope no one minds a long, rambling post.  Just thought I'd talk about my perceptions of Dick from different eras and my favorite era/characterization of Dick, since his current characterization, Ric, doesn't really merit discussion, IMO.

While I absolutely like aspects from other eras, and I dislike some aspects from these eras, my favorite time periods for Dick are probably 1980-1986ish and 1996-2000.  There’s some good 70s stuff and I like certain dynamics of him as guardian/mentor to Damian (and some stuff with other family), but as whole, these two eras in his titles (Teen Titans and Nightwing) are my favorites.  For his characterization as stand-alone (rather than his relationships with other characters).

Golden and silver age Dick merit a bit less discussion. Characters weren't as distinct from each other back then.  Nor, really, as consistent.  But Dick was sometimes regarded as quite a mature young man in the golden age.  Responsible, good grades, intelligent, etc.  But so was Speedy - like I said, not much distinction.  Despite some impressions, in the stories I read I did not notice Robin to make lots of puns or be unusually cheery and smiley and sweetness/innocence personified.

Come to the mid-60s and Dick was so much a teenager. I mean the original Teen Titans fairly scream with it early on (so much slang, really folks). One writer I didn't like had him behave like an idiot (I’m not the only one who thought so, judging by the letters pages, though opinions were split).  Really, though, in the early original Teen Titans it felt like writer(s) were trying to push the "teen" thing too much, and they sometimes came off like caricatures.  But it was a time in comics when stories and characterizations were shifting and there were, IMO, both failures and successes in trying to embrace new and different.  Hate Robbins characterization of him (I can post panels for why, if anyone likes).

The '70s were okay. Some bits I liked, and some I didn‘t. Dick is usually responsible in Detective Comics stories. He did a little bit of playing the play-boy (with Silver), which isn't my speed, since I like the idea that Dick, unlike Bruce, doesn’t put on a facade in day-to-day life.  Had a few girlfriends - very normal and not either stunningly celibate or shockingly promiscuous. Though the entire 70s was one year of college for Dick.

I am not at all fond of the "goofy" Dick that seems to have popped up fairly often in the past 20 years.  They often seemed to have seriously dampened his brainpower and detective skills (because Tim is the smart one and the detective and for some reason they can't both be that).  I'm not a fan of separate out all Batman’s skills and assigning one to each Robin. It makes the Robins all less than Batman and inferior to him and sets that they will never be his equals and that I do not agree with. Now this is by no means a _consistent_ thing, but it does happen, and it does irritate me.  I don't like seeing characters diminished.

I really love old-school Dick.  Back when he was young (late '70s to mid '80s), they showed us how mature he was (probably to contrast his youth and make him a viable peer to older heroes).  Both Wally and Roy commented on it. Roy said how he always felt so much younger (issue where he got custody of Lian).  Wally though Dick was always on top of things (Kory and Donna knew better).  Heck, Terry's (Donna’s ex) bachelor party was another fine example how much more of an adult he was than some men twice his age.  He was pretty cerebral, a fantastic detective, a good fighter, etc.  He could hang out and have fun, too, of course. He wasn't a stick-in-the-mud.  He was too closed off and unwilling to talk sometimes (moreso with his team, and perhaps because he thought he needed to project confidence as a leader?).  He was, in a reverse, quite willing to talk about other people's emotional issues.   Sometimes as a friend, and sometimes as a leader.  He behaved most immaturely when dealing with Batman, particularly as their relationship became more difficult - there were times when they brought out the worst in each other. Though it wasn't steady, of course.  It's ironic, too, since it's Batman he most wants to see him as an adult.

We really got to see Dick as a leader in this era. Someone people respected and looked up to.  Not that his team always agreed with him or that he was always right, but that but that he was a person that people did have trust in. And that he usually did a good job of deserving it.  It's not just other teenagers, though, but the older heroes respect him as well.  It's also the first time we a real, substantive romance - with Kory.  Saw where he floundered and how he loved, and such.  Which I thought worked well until it reached a point where I thought it needed to end, and it didn't (or rather it did end, but didn’t stay ended).  Readers who like the ship, though, will likely have a different perspective, if they are like me (I just blame the writing when this sort of thing happens with ships I prefer).

Batman: Year Three - not the best story.  I don't remember most of it, to be honest.  But one thing I really liked was the highlighted difference between Bruce and Dick.  It hits that Dick is more emotionally healthy than Bruce. That Dick had the emotional support Bruce lacked as a child (I don’t think continuity had yet settled on the idea of Alfred as a father-figure to Bruce).  That could segue me into changes in Bruce's backstory and characterization, but I’ll refrain.  I will say that I preferred Dick with the nice-nuns orphanage to Dick-in-juvenile-facility (though I really like Dixon’s run on Nightwing).  It makes Bruce less of a "rescuer of Dick, which I prefer. I do not like the idea that Dick was doomed to end up dead on street (or a criminal) if not for Bruce.  Though I admit to preferring old-school Dick-goes-directly-to-Bruce’s-home, no matter how unrealistic.  I dislike the entire Talon thing even more. I hate the back-projecting of more angst and more terrible things, like his parents being murdered wasn't bad enough.

----------


## Tzigone

PART II (I may talk too much)

Now we come to Nightwing series. I  really liked Dixon's run.  I’m a DickBabs fan, so seeing them get together was great.  I did read he wanted Dick/Donna, and I’m glad that didn't happen.  Partially because I'm a DickBabs fan, but also because I really, really liked the platonic friendship between Dick and Donna during the New Titans.  And I liked that it was platonic and that a friendship - rather than romance - could be so very important.  I don't think friendships get near the credit they should as important relationships in fiction, and so often fans want them to be romantic.  And the older I get, the more I value good fictional friendships and sibling relationships and so on.  For the record, I also really liked the Vic/Gar friendship. And I still tend to think of Donna, rather than Wally as Dick's BFF. Though he has many friends.

Anyway, I really liked seeing Dick working on his own and having his own city.   He was finding his own path and his rogues were being developed. I liked the idea of him as a cop, and I enjoyed Amy. I liked a lot of his banter with Barbara. But not just the banter, the serious stuff. Dick was looking for a real, long-term, serious relationship.  And Barbara was the hesitant one - for understandable reasons.   It's an everyday reminder of the things they used to do together.  Things he can do that she no longer can.  And she really wants to.

Of course, in this era, he was totally a big brother to Tim, a relationship he never really had with Jason (post-crisis).  Now, Bruce's character was becoming worse and worse in this era, so that provided some conflict for Dick.  Early in the series, Bruce wasn't that bad yet, and he and Dick had some nice bonding/reconciling moments.  And so some of the issues were just on Dick's side.  He has, since at least the Titans days, had a persistent need to prove himself Batman's equal.  He thinks Bruce thinks less of him on occasions when Bruce doesn't.  He's hypersensitive to anything he perceives as criticism from Bruce. Definitely a character flaw.

I wasn't real fond back-projection/retconning of the Dick/Babs relationship over the years. Or her de-aging.  I like her at least 4 years older than Dick.  With no involvement when he was in highschool.  Flirtation when he was in college (1970s Batman family issues), sure, but nothing really happening until he's in Bludhaven and in his mid 20s and the 5-7 year age gap doesn’t matter because they’re both adults.  I much prefer her pre-crisis background with Batman to the post-crisis one, but that’s a topic for her thread.

Then the Devin Grayson era - I don't agree with all the positions of the author, but I do agree about Devin Grayson: http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...resist-it-tell and I think way too many of her aspects stuck with the character.  Which I guess makes her a success, but doesn't work for me at all, because I don't like the character she describes at all and he is not Dick to me. I've read her interview on Dick Grayson and her perception of the character was just nothing like mine. She acts like he's not a thinker (even though got called too cerebral in the old days).  She acts like Dick either kisses or kicks everyone he meets, and totally disregards so many other types of relationships. Now, the Mirage-rape had already happened (and was horribly handled), plus the Raven-mind-controllish thing (also didn’t work for me), but Grayson made Dick the sleeps-around type.  That was specifically contradictory to earlier characterizations where Dick was the committed-relationship type - something he actually discussed with Roy at one point.  I liked Dick being a relationship-only guy, it was a big contrast with Bruce.  I don't like Dick being Batman-lite at all.  

A quick reference to Nightwing Annual #2, which I loathe, then off to what DC did with him.

So, Dick's life in Bludhaven was destroyed.  His life as independent hero was destroyed.  I enjoyed Dick with the Titans, but him in Gotham is a no-go to me.  Because he goes back to being an appendage of Bruce.  He's working in someone else's city, he's a subordinate (at least with Bruce is actually there).  As an aside, I really do want him to grow past trying to prove himself as Bruce's peer. Not the way Jason doesn't want approval anymore, because he dislikes Bruce, but in a way that Dick realizes he's accomplished his goal already, and no one sees him as lesser (and for that to actually, consistently be true).

I haven't read as much of the Dick/Damian relationship as I maybe should have.  While interested in their dynamic, I'm not keen on Dick’s wider characterization.  I do not like lothario-Dick.  I do not like childish Dick. And I do not like Batman-lite Dick.  So I deeply disliked him taking Robin from Tim and giving it away without discussing it, just like Bruce did to him.   Yeah.  To top that off, I unlike many, did not like the first 12 issues of Red Robin, so there wasn't even a pay-off.  And then later we'd get Dick faking his death and hurting his family for the sake of the mission (Batman's mission).  Too Batman-like. I do get incredibly frustrated with that no matter how badly he treats them, Bruce's "kids" keep coming back and following his orders.  I didn't like the concept of his non-masked storyline, in N52, either. Sadly, at least Barbara, Dick, and Tim have all adopted some of Bruce's worse traits in regards to secrets and manipulation at one point or another.

But my biggest thing is that Dick all to often (not always, but even once is too often) gets treated like a joke. He's the lovable brother, and that part is okay. But he's all cuddles and cartoons and Disney and most of his maturity is just gone.  This is heavy in fic, but it's present in the comics, too.  At 19 he was man, and later he's a man-child. Not when he's working, I mean, but in personal life.  Lex Luthor says he’s not a big thinker and some people agree. And that is just totally wrong to me.  For me Dick, while far from perfect, is a person that has earned and has respect not only from his peers, but from the first-generation heroes.  And it just gets worse later.  Late Pre-Crisis they de-age him and he’s 21 in N52 (when it starts anyway). And I hated his de-aging, and Barbara's.  It feels like they’re being drug backwards and not allowed to grow up. Even though Barbara _started_  grown up and Dick had pretty much been a man even during his endless year at Hudson.  I don't like the idea of Dick as someone people don't take seriously. Bart or Booster, maybe is someone villains don't take seriously, but should. But Dick, at least as he reaches his adult years, should be someone that people (villains and colleagues) do take seriously and respect.  Though maybe without the intimidation Batman has, at least with criminals.  I will say I do think it was done partially to keep Batman from getting too old to do the job, but I still don't care for it.

I thought the entire issue with Dick and Bruce after Bruce’s failed wedding was bad.  Dick tries to be the goofball. They try to redeem it at the end, but it falls flat because he was stupid enough to think it would help in the first place.

And now, he's Ric. 

Side note: the comments on Dick’s body get a little old.  I totally get that he's stunning.  I'm cool with Kory or Barbara or his current girlfriend enjoying his body or complimenting him on it.  But sometimes it seems like various characters (usually female) are discussing him like a piece of meat. Particularly frustrating when his hero colleagues do so.  I know a good bit of this comes with me binge-reading, making it seem more often than when issues are read a month apart.

----------


## dropkickjake

Not a whole lotta dick in this weeks three episodes of Young Justice  :Frown:  I'm sure he'll still play a large role going forward, but I was sad he was largely absent.

----------


## Pohzee

I absolutely love 70s/80s era Dick. Greatly underrated.

----------


## Tzigone

> I absolutely love 70s/80s era Dick. Greatly underrated.


What's your favorite story or writer for '70s Dick?  I read some Batman Family (often silver-agish in stories, but fun, and great art in one issue) and Detective Comics. I didn't really like the resolution on Lori, since I have a annoyance with characters being narrative "punished" for dumping main characters by having crappy things happen to them and evil replacement love interests.  I tried later (original) Teen Titans, but wasn't too into the stories, and disliked the Wally-jealous-of-Roy bits.

----------


## Pohzee

> What's your favorite story or writer for '70s Dick?  I read some Batman Family (often silver-agish in stories, but fun, and great art in one issue) and Detective Comics. I didn't really like the resolution on Lori, since I have a annoyance with characters being narrative "punished" for dumping main characters by having crappy things happen to them and evil replacement love interests.  I tried later (original) Teen Titans, but wasn't too into the stories, and disliked the Wally-jealous-of-Roy bits.


I really enjoyed Mike Friedrich's run with Dick. He started writing Dick with a couple of backups before Dick even left before Hudson University which had the most fleshed out look we ever got at how Dick's time as a crimefighter impacted his social life as a high school student. Then he penned the first stint of Dick's time at Hudson University. I thought he did a pretty good job of building up a supporting cast. His Dick is socially conscious and rather averse to conflict and violence for a superhero. He mostly volunteered in the community and solved local mysteries rather than fighting supervillains. And his run culminates in a finale bringing together characters from Hudson as well as a few Titans like Roy and Lilith. IIRC he started writing when he was 16 or 17 so he was writing for the character while as the same age. I also appreciate the look into the era, with the "long hairs" and war protestors. I was sad that the next writer tossed most of these characters and threads truth be told. By the time Lori came around it seemed as though her and her Uncle were the only two recurring characters at Hudson U.

----------


## Tzigone

> And his run culminates in a finale bringing together characters from Hudson as well as a few Titans like Roy and Lilith. IIRC he started writing when he was 16 or 17 so he was writing for the character while as the same age. I also appreciate the look into the era, with the "long hairs" and war protestors. I was sad that the next writer tossed most of these characters and threads truth be told.


I do recall some recurring characters of the era. I kinda got bored the repeated theme on protestors students v. town or students v. adults - kinda like when I listen to the radio shows (Superman or Green Hornet) from the early 40s and it's Nazi spies over and over and over again.

I'd have like to have seen the characters continue, but I can understand why the stories may have stopped - contemporary culture changed. It would be dated to keep up with the same story types that were topical a few years ago. From The Mod Squad (tv show from 1968 to 1973) you see a similar shift in stories from the earlier to later stories. I wonder if the timing is roughly the same as Robin in than shift.  I think the last conscription for military was late 1972?  I guess that would effect public perception.  Especially once US pulled out of Vietnam and draft ended altogether.  Not so much need for war protestors, then.

Also, it seem seems like a bit of a transitional period in the latter part of 60s and early 70s.  There's a lot of "youth v. adults" (pops up in original Teen Titans in the 1960s) in the comics.  By the mid (and probably early) 70s, it seems even the "parents" (Bruce, Barry, etc.) had long hair - same for all the adults in the background.  Counter culture became culture (at least visually), or maybe it was just DC appealing to young readers.  Still hit some race-and-poverty issues, but war protests and the youth-v-adult aspect seems to have ceased being a major component sometime in the early 1970s. But I wasn't born yet, and haven't studied it, so am only just assuming the comics were reflecting a change in society from early '70s to mid instead of just switching to a writer who didn't like that kind of stories.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Hate Robbins characterization of him (I can post panels for why, if anyone likes).


Please do. Frank Robbins stuff didn't draw me into it enough to notice anything wrong.

----------


## Restingvoice

So the Dick Grayson YA Lost Carnival GN is about meeting a new mysterious carnival and a girl called Lucinda or something.

----------


## Tzigone

> Please do. Frank Robbins stuff didn't draw me into it enough to notice anything wrong.


Well, he had Dick quit in a unreasonable huff and move out.  And roommate with a syndicate kingpin's son, who then kicked Dick's butt and held a gun on him. Thought it would be con, but no, he really did write Dick that incompetent.
RobinIdiot1.jpg

And he better not think he's competent
RobinIdiot2.jpg

In addition to being unreasonable and incompetent any time he disagrees with Batman, he's a bit of jerk
Robinjerk.jpg

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Well, he had Dick quit in a unreasonable huff and move out.  And roommate with a syndicate kingpin's son, who then kicked Dick's butt and held a gun on him. Thought it would be con, but no, he really did write Dick that incompetent.
> RobinIdiot1.jpg
> 
> And he better not think he's competent
> RobinIdiot2.jpg
> 
> In addition to being unreasonable and incompetent any time he disagrees with Batman, he's a bit of jerk
> Robinjerk.jpg


Now i remember those. Robbins did write Dick some. Yeah these are annoying. I dislike most the third cos since when did Dick use pun to sass at strangers? he Only did that with enemies. 

I seem to remember one or two main Batman and Tec stories around this time too that have him jump to conclusion with feelings and no critical or detective skills despite being trained, wouldnt be surprised if it was Robbin. Though i think every writer both old and modern had their share of idiot Robin/Nightwing to make Batman and everyone else look better. I'm just sad that it's always stupid versions of Dick that got  immortalised - this annoying teen boy stuff is in the new52 too and it's even worse because he was Robin for 1 year. Really damaged Dick as a character. 

I love NTT Dick as well.  I love Golden Age Dick, and the little distinction he has to other kid sidekicks is he got the marks of a leader and a independent rebel. He was the coolest kid. DC has lied and stereotyped Dick to only the punny and happy go lucky Robin because it simply isn't true even in an era of little characterisation. Like Batman got his Golden Age dark detective root back during the 70s, I always think NTT Dick is the return of Golden Age Dick Grayson after years of camp and lightening, however different the circumtances.  DC just never let Wolfman-Peres tell you that. 

I feel angry Post Crisis Dick of 87-94 is really underappreciated. That was the difficult but defining era of drama for him regarding his family. Bruce was ugly, but Dick has gone through so much (NTT leave, Jason's death and getting over it to pass Robin to Tim) that I'm angry Dixon and later writers pretend this period - Prodigal he wrote himself - never happened. This set light into when he took Robin from Tim years later.  i disagree it was a Batman-lite move or that Dick was doing the same thing Bruce did. I ranted a little about this before. 




> 1. that he had to understand that tim’s situation is like his, that he should have learned from  that time he was lost bc bruce fired him. but it’s not quite black and white like tim thinks.  in dickÂ’s perspective, it’s becos he left and bruce acted that way that people died. jason was beyond saving. he’s trying to keep everyone alive this time. he has to save another of bruce’s son and maybe tim too. what he doesn’t understand is maybe he had nothing when bruce took him in , while tim was a normal kid who just lost everyone he loved in months. but dick told him straight out back in 94 that he couldn’t understand they are different (”be grateful for your parents at least they lived”) 
> 
> 2.  that this is some fault/some conflict that has to be resolved. it was never a conflict. the real conflict is bruce firing him and making jason die. this is a years later resolution to that conflict. dickÂ’s silence  (bless him) dissolves any conflict tim might have had with him. tim understood, or at least saw no point in arguing , thatÂ’s why he said no more about this. 
> 
> 3. that he could just have a talk with him before making a decision. again, the ‘talk” that resolves this is also more complicated than one think. people forgot that tim never knew the exact circumtances that led to jason's death and bruce and dick's fall out. dick hid being fired from tim all these years, which enabled tim to remove himself emotionally, to be good as robin and save bruce. dick  could have said “he fired and replaced me too tim and a son literally died and when he didn’t die he’s wrecking shit up let me try with this one” but his secret of being fired and replaced is the bane of tim’s entire career as robin. he kept it safe for years so why not now. letting it out now is letting out all of bruce’s mistakes to tim. i dont think he could risk that while tim is in his mental low. maybe sit him down and have a LONG talk later, but not at that time when everything was so messy. the talk would be about why he even was robin - not even red robin.

----------


## Rac7d*

YJ was dissapointing

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> His intro scene in _Hush_ looks pretty good though .


I only just came across that, and I have to agree. Starting to see a cool pattern in these movies, they really like to give Dick the cool opening sequences lmao. I just hope they don't waste their own potential like they did with the very ending of Bad Blood. They spent the entire movie getting us to side with Dick and then robbing us of a satisfying conclusion to the fight with Bruce (I say this as someone who still loves Bad Blood to this day lol). If Hush goes the way of the other previous movies, we'll get the one or two good action scenes and Dick being mostly absent or useless for the rest of it. But here's hoping they do better.

----------


## RickWJ324

Having dropped this title recently due to it being an absolute s**t-fest starring Ric Grayson I'd like to ask (if spoilers please tag it):  Has anything happened to give us an inkling as to when/if we can expect Dick to return?  I think I've only missed 2 issues so far, so I seriously doubt it.  Just curious if there are any signs of the sun rising again on this title?

----------


## Godlike13

No, nothing in the issues themselves so far. Just more of the same.

----------


## Drako

> I only just came across that, and I have to agree. Starting to see a cool pattern in these movies, they really like to give Dick the cool opening sequences lmao. I just hope they don't waste their own potential like they did with the very ending of Bad Blood. They spent the entire movie getting us to side with Dick and then robbing us of a satisfying conclusion to the fight with Bruce (I say this as someone who still loves Bad Blood to this day lol). If Hush goes the way of the other previous movies, we'll get the one or two good action scenes and Dick being mostly absent or useless for the rest of it. But here's hoping they do better.


Can you provide a link, please? I can't find it.

----------


## BloodOps

> Can you provide a link, please? I can't find it.


On the Itunes preview page.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/ba...h/id1462976676

----------


## Drako

> On the Itunes preview page.
> 
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/ba...h/id1462976676


Thank you.

----------


## bearman

If Dick ever returns, intact, I would like to see him take a page from the YJ series, and head up the Justice League Espionage Squad.

----------


## CPSparkles

Older Grayson [Batman Beyond]



https://twitter.com/JarrulusX

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

That art is great, too bad old Dick is barely relevant to the Beyond book itself.  :Frown:  We still don't even know who Elainna's mom is lol.

----------


## dietrich

Has this been posted here? I just found out about it today not sure how I missed a Dick Grayson Graphic Novel announcement

----------


## L.H.

It has already been posted
Also, in Teen Titans: Raven, Kami Garcia says that the book is part of a series about the Teen Titans, so we're going to have another Dick Graphic Novel announcement. They have already announced the Beast Boy one, for summer 2020.
By the way, I've loved the Raven issue, hope this quality will stick and improve.

----------


## Ascended

What's the deal with this young Dick book? Is it a YA novel or a OGN? Might have to check it out. What's the release date?

(couldn't find where this had been discussed in the previous pages, though I vaguely recall it being brought up.)

----------


## Pohzee

It's gonna fall under the DC Kids billing now that Ink is over, isn't it? Because that would be an awful way to ruin that pretty cover.

----------


## Restingvoice

It will be in the YA line with the Oracle and Teen/Titans book. I forgot the official name but there is a YA line, not just Kids and Adult. 
It's an OGN.

----------


## Pohzee

> It will be in the YA line with the Oracle and Teen/Titans book. I forgot the official name but there is a YA line, not just Kids and Adult. 
> It's an OGN.


There was Ink and Zoom but they cancelled it along with Vertigo and MAD. The only remaining DC labels are DC Kids, DC, and DC Black Label.

----------


## Ascended

So a graphic novel then, like that Mera one? 

Okay, I could get down with that. For the kids, if nothing else. Thanks for the info gentlemen and/or ladies. Work was hell and I was far too lazy to Google.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Also, does anyone find it odd that DC threw such a fit over Bat-penis, but Black Label is one of the only imprints surviving?

----------


## byrd156

> So a graphic novel then, like that Mera one? 
> 
> Okay, I could get down with that. For the kids, if nothing else. Thanks for the info gentlemen and/or ladies. Work was hell and I was far too lazy to Google. 
> 
> Also, does anyone find it odd that DC threw such a fit over Bat-penis, but Black Label is one of the only imprints surviving?


Controversy sells, I guess.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm pissed that MAD is going down too.

----------


## Frontier

> So a graphic novel then, like that Mera one? 
> 
> Okay, I could get down with that. For the kids, if nothing else. Thanks for the info gentlemen and/or ladies. Work was hell and I was far too lazy to Google. 
> 
> Also, does anyone find it odd that DC threw such a fit over Bat-penis, but Black Label is one of the only imprints surviving?


Well, compartmentalizing doesn't always make sense  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

Well, it wasn't DC who threw a fit. Just parents who heard there will be Batman penis from the news. DC just acts to maintain PR. So it's a "care by care" basis. If the parents don't care they won't care. 
Like how said parents never heard that the book includes church vandalism, crucified corpse, and demonic possession.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, does anyone find it odd that DC threw such a fit over Bat-penis, but Black Label is one of the only imprints surviving?


It is the only imprint that generates massive sales.

Batman Damned sold close to 100K copies, the stuff from Vertigo and Young Animal struggles to sell 10K copies.

Would of course be interesting how well Ink and zoom were doing.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I just posted about this, but yeah Lost Carnival is now a general DC graphic novel, which is great because it deserves to advertised as a DC book and not as part of an imprint like DC Ink (not that there's any problem with DC Ink, I just personally feel like these books are the real future for comic books and not the direct market). 

Here's the synopsis posted on DC's site:



> Before Batman trained him to be Robin, Dick Grayson discovered the power of young love--and its staggering costs--at the dangerous, magical, and utterly irresistible Lost Carnival.
> 
> Haly's traveling circus no longer has the allure of its glamorous past, but it still has one main attraction: the Flying Graysons, a family of trapeze artists starring a teenage Dick Grayson. The only problem is that Dick loathes spending his summers performing tired routines for a dwindling crowd.
> 
> When the Lost Carnival, a wild and enchanting new attraction, opens nearby and threatens to pull Haly's remaining customers, Dick is among those drawn to its magical nighttime glow. But there are forces ancient and dangerous at work at the Lost Carnival, and when Dick meets the mysterious Luciana and her carnival workers--each stranger than the last--he may be too mesmerized to recognize the danger ahead.
> 
> Beneath the carnival's dazzling fireworks, Dick must decide who he is and who he wants to be--choosing between loyalty to his family history and a glittering future with new friends and romance. Writer Michael Moreci and artist Sas Milledge redefine Dick Grayson in The Lost Carnival, a young adult graphic novel exploring the power and magic of young love.


I'm definitely looking forward to it. My hope is that we either get more books set before Dick becomes Robin, or we get to follow Dick as Robin for the next one (like, one book set before Robin, one as Robin, one right before he becomes Nightwing). We'll see where this goes.

I've also read Teen Titans: Raven, and it's great. I recommend it to all Teen Titans (well, mostly Raven) fans, but based on some of the events in the book, I thought I might as well share my Robin-related speculation for the eventual Teen Titans: Robin book, but mind the spoilers.
*spoilers:*
The way they introduced Slade Wilson in this universe is pretty great imo. He's a lot more grounded just like Raven and Beast Boy seem to be so far, but he's still definitely Slade. Now, given that Raven's origin doesn't include Azarath, and that Beast Boy's doesn't involve the Doom Patrol, I actually doubt Batman will be part of Dick's origin here. Also note, whether it's entirely due to Picolo or not, this universe seems to take some inspiration from the 2003 animated series. So, considering all that, I'm thinking Dick is going to be a newly orphaned circus kid who's run away and been picked up by Slade. He'll eventually decide to betray Slade, become Robin, and lead the Teen Titans. Another thing, I don't want to spoil everything, but since Raven sort of has her own supporting hero or sidekick, it's not a stretch to assume almost every character will get one in their respective book, i.e. a reformed Blackfire for Starfire's book. Rose and/or Joey Wilson makes sense for Robin's book if my speculation is on track, doesn't it?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Restingvoice

"a young adult graphic novel exploring the power and magic of young love."

Oh so she is a love interest

----------


## dietrich

> It has already been posted
> Also, in Teen Titans: Raven, Kami Garcia says that the book is part of a series about the Teen Titans, so we're going to have another Dick Graphic Novel announcement. They have already announced the Beast Boy one, for summer 2020.
> By the way, I've loved the Raven issue, hope this quality will stick and improve.


Thank you. I must have missed it.

----------


## L.H.

> Thank you. I must have missed it.


Well, there are so much bad news that we can miss the good ones!

----------


## Rac7d*

The dc universe comics are uploaded a year behind ther original release
Were almost reached the Rick saga, here i thought it would at least be over in real life

----------


## dropkickjake

> The dc universe comics are uploaded a year behind ther original release
> Were almost reached the Rick saga, here i thought it would at least be over in real life


I'm really hoping that sdcc announces a new direction. Or that angry fans yell at the DC panel nonstop.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm really hoping that sdcc announces a new direction. Or that angry fans yell at the DC panel nonstop.


The world wont rally for him until he is on the screen we need his debut in seasonn2 if Titans

----------


## dropkickjake

> The world won’t rally for him until he is on the screen we need his debut in seasonn2 if Titans


This is comicon though. If there is a group of people who will rally to shout at DiDio, its sdcc

----------


## Ascended

> I'm really hoping that sdcc announces a new direction. Or that angry fans yell at the DC panel nonstop.


Agreed. Though I would much rather they announce a new direction. DC already knows that Ric is unpopular; the sales seem to tell a fairly straight forward story, even if DC is discounting the social media chatter as a small, grumpy minority of the audience. They know we're pissed so yelling at them probably wouldn't change anything. And really, its just comics, yelling at people in public over a comic? Even the fools who made the comic suck so bad? Pretty immature. I know Didio and some creators have taken shots at us wingnuts, but someone has to be the adult.

I'd rather see someone come at them with facts and examples and a workable understanding of basic business, and make them try to justify their actions and explain why this is good for the IP and company. Angry shouting doesn't warrant any kind of real reply. But if you're respectful, thoughtful, and calm they can't *not* answer you in kind without looking like a-holes. And if you speak their language (business) and they don't provide an equally business-y answer, everyone knows that it's not about business or what's good for the IP, but a personal bias that has no place influencing decisions at the office.

----------


## Godlike13

As to continue to protect the lazy and poor editors and creators responsible for Ric, a change from Ric will probably be done quietly. DC knows Ric is unpopular, they know it has flatline sales at its low, and they know it’s now just fodder for their in house guys to get some work. They just don’t care.
 At the same time though they don’t want to bring light to it either. A bunch of people cheering that they are ending Ric isn’t going to make them look good, as they created Ric and continued to enable it and the continuous shit work despite how obviously bad and lazy it is. So they aren’t going to admit or make it look like in anyway that they knowing knew it sucked and readers were unhappy, yet continued to produce and facilitated it anyway.

----------


## Ascended

Exactly, and asking them to explain the business logic in their choices? I'm sure it'd be quite embarrassing for them. WB doesnt care enough to step in and we fans can't do anything about it (except drop the book) but we could expose the BS to the wider community and throw some bad PR at DC. People bitching on social media? No one actually cares, it doesn't amount to anything. But embarrassing them publicly at SDCC? That would get a little attention, and even if that's not enough to force a course-correction (which it wouldn't be) it's the least DC deserves.

----------


## dropkickjake

I don't think either would work to effect any change. I think that more than one fan bringing it up and calling it what it is, trash, would most effectively embarrass them. They'd shrug off the business acumen of a fan at comicon as easily as they'd shrug of someone shouting obscenities. Really all I want is for it to keep coming up so that they are forced to address it. And so that they are rightly embarrassed for their stupidity.

But yeah, the announcement of a linewide direction that includes Dick coming back would obviously be preferable.

----------


## Badou

It doesn't matter. DC and its creators will continue to spin Ric as being an _"exciting era in Dick Grayson's career"_ like they do in all those fake interviews when they bring on new creators to the book. Where they just groan on and on about how excited they are to write this story and explore new aspects of Dick's character as Ric. Garbage like that. Even with public ridicule they will never admit how shit it is and say that the story arc went on for way too long and was bad. That their hands were tied because of all the other books and stories going on at the moment (mostly King's stories) and they were clueless with what to do with his character during them. They will never say anything like that and be truthful about it. They never are.

They will just continue to act like it is fine and then just swiftly move on to more generic Nightwing stories once King's story is finished and Dick can come back. I don't think this Ric stuff is leading to anything or there is any big plan for the character after it. Dick is completely irrelevant in DC right now. From the wider DCU to the Batman books. It doesn't matter if he moves editorial offices because there is no one at DC that has any investment in his character and wants to support and fight for him. His own book has been a prison sentence where they can isolate the character and ignore him, the Batman book he is abused and written terribly just to prop up Batman's character, he is irrelevant in all the other Bat books, he was written as a joke and probably has his worst characterization I've ever read in Titans, and all those big event stories he is irrelevant in them. 

He has no role and is pointless in Doomsday Clock, despite all those characters involved in HiC he had no role in that, things like The Three Jokers he has no role in, he is irrelevant in Leviathan despite all the ties he had to people and agencies involved, even stuff before Ric like No Justice he was irrelevant in, and even things like Year of the Villain from Snyder he is pointless. They are doing a lazy tie in story with that like all other DC books and readers want to act excited because it means that Ric might be ending, but it all doesn't matter. DC has shown a complete lack of support or care for the character going back even before the Ric story and I don't get why anyone would be hopeful that things would get better even if Ric ends. 

I mean when Ric ends and Dick is Nightwing again what are people expecting at this point? That he is going to immediately go back to fighting crime in Bludhaven as Nigthwing in more uninspired stories? Which is basically what he has been doing as Ric despite not wanting to do that. That he is suddenly going to become an important DCU figure and start mattering in DCU wide stories despite never being that even before this whole mess started? He is DC's 3rd most published character and they would rather write the character off for a year and ignore him rather than do anything interesting and exciting with him. That should tell you all you need to know about how DC and its management values the character right now.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah, Dick coming back is almost pointless for me right now. The damage has been done. No matter how they bring him back, after what HiC has done to the DCU, there's just no conceivable way I can think of that would actually get me excited for his return. Either they deal with all the baggage of HiC, or they don't. The former is going to have to fundamentally change Dick's status quo (i.e. Winnick's Outsiders) to ring true and I doubt that's going to happen, and the latter is just going to make the character feel incredibly fake. Either way, it's not going to change the larger problem of Nightwing being subservient to the Batman IP and not being given any kind of importance in the greater DCU. He's going to be stuck in Bludhaven or Gotham doing what he's always doing, but this time we won't have a Seeley to write it. We'll get our Lobdells and Jurgens. That's why I've been placing a lot more importance on Lost Carnival, that's a story where Dick is the main character, where he gets his own universe to develop and develop in.

----------


## Godlike13

There's no accountability on the character, so the same people that have been behind his book for Ric are going to remain and continue to put the same inept and lazy effort they put into Ric. Why, cause they can. Things for the character are probably gonna be worse after Ric in ways, because thats when they are going to see the true results of telling fans here a plate crap, enjoy it or not, we don't actually care either way. You can't utterly shit on a character's reader base, and display this level of not giving a shit with the charter to the general audience, then think that it is not gonna have an after effect or readers will come again after.

----------


## dietrich

never too old for dad to love [Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian]




https://doc-squash.tumblr.com

----------


## L.H.

I've seen the Batman/Superman panel about Batman Who Laughs infected. 
Wally wears a scarf, and... Who is this supposed to be? Why the red suit? I'm not reading Nightwing wannabies, can someone please explain?

----------


## Godlike13

Red Hood I believe.

----------


## L.H.

> Red Hood I believe.


Oh, thanks. I thougt Jason was still wearing a hood, but I'm not reading RHATO.

----------


## Arsenal

> Oh, thanks. I thougt Jason was still wearing a hood, but I'm not reading RHATO.


Some times it’s a helmet, sometimes it’s a hood. On special days it’s both.

Depends on the mood mostly.

----------


## Ascended

> I don't think either would work to effect any change. I think that more than one fan bringing it up and calling it what it is, trash, would most effectively embarrass them. They'd shrug off the business acumen of a fan at comicon as easily as they'd shrug of someone shouting obscenities. Really all I want is for it to keep coming up so that they are forced to address it. And so that they are rightly embarrassed for their stupidity.
> 
> But yeah, the announcement of a linewide direction that includes Dick coming back would obviously be preferable.


Oh Im not saying it would change anything. Just that DC deserves some public humiliation and a little bad PR over it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Hmm... the bad character treatment that gave DC bad PR to the point where they actually do something about it was The Fridging of Stephanie Brown and The Character Assassination of Cassandra Cain. I wasn't there back then, so what did they do? The fans, I mean.

----------


## Godlike13

Any one see the TTGo movie, it’s kind of hilarious.

----------


## nhienphan2808

You mean Go To The Movies ? Yeah it’s good. I liked that Dick decided the Wayne’s must die right away in the comics, so this is actually accurate in a sense.

Watched LEGO : Family Matters too. It’s hilarious how everyone has to be turned into Dick these days.

----------


## Mataza

> I've seen the Batman/Superman panel about Batman Who Laughs infected. 
> Wally wears a scarf, and... Who is this supposed to be? Why the red suit? I'm not reading Nightwing wannabies, can someone please explain?


Looks like Tims new costume. I have only seen it without color, but yeah, the straps are there, tho the sticks on his back arent in the picture i saw.
Also no Robin is a nightwing wannabe. Unless by nightwing wannabe you mean every hero moving from being a sidekick into their own thing is a nightwing wannabe.

----------


## Badou

> Yeah, Dick coming back is almost pointless for me right now. The damage has been done. No matter how they bring him back, after what HiC has done to the DCU, there's just no conceivable way I can think of that would actually get me excited for his return. Either they deal with all the baggage of HiC, or they don't. The former is going to have to fundamentally change Dick's status quo (i.e. Winnick's Outsiders) to ring true and I doubt that's going to happen, and the latter is just going to make the character feel incredibly fake. Either way, it's not going to change the larger problem of Nightwing being subservient to the Batman IP and not being given any kind of importance in the greater DCU. He's going to be stuck in Bludhaven or Gotham doing what he's always doing, but this time we won't have a Seeley to write it. We'll get our Lobdells and Jurgens. That's why I've been placing a lot more importance on Lost Carnival, that's a story where Dick is the main character, where he gets his own universe to develop and develop in.


I pretty much feel the same way. After everything that has happened to Dick and in the DCU if Dick just goes back to what he was doing then it is a complete slap in the face, which there has been many of them lately. I don't see how he could just go back to status quo and not have some fundamental change, like you said with a Winnick's Outsiders type of change, given everything that happened. It is a joke that he would go back to the same old stuff, but they don't care about the character or telling interesting stories with the character. So I don't expect any of this to happen and I think it is a lost cause to even hope for it and DC will just go back to doing what they always do with Dick's character in the end. Undermining and marginalizing him.

----------


## dietrich

> Looks like Tims new costume. I have only seen it without color, but yeah, the straps are there, tho the sticks on his back arent in the picture i saw.
> Also no Robin is a nightwing wannabe. Unless by nightwing wannabe you mean every hero moving from being a sidekick into their own thing is a nightwing wannabe.


'The Nightwings' are literally Nightwing Wannabes and one of them dresses similar to the guy pictured.

You know the story currently going on in the Nightwing comic

----------


## Mataza

> 'The Nightwings' are literally Nightwing Wannabes and one of them dresses similar to the guy pictured.


Ah, misread, now i understand he meant the nightwing book.





> You know the story currently going on in the Nightwing comic


I hate you for reminding me.

----------


## L.H.

> Looks like Tims new costume. I have only seen it without color, but yeah, the straps are there, tho the sticks on his back arent in the picture i saw.
> Also no Robin is a nightwing wannabe. Unless by nightwing wannabe you mean every hero moving from being a sidekick into their own thing is a nightwing wannabe.


Tim and Damian are both on the panel with their Robin suit.
As Dietrich pointed out, I was referring to the four new characters in Nightwing comic.

----------


## Tzigone

Anyone want to share their favorite era of Dick Grayson - either in characterization or in storylines?

----------


## Arsenal

The Batman Who Laughs isn’t that incompetent enough to Target one of Ric’s backup singers. Give the guy some credit at least.

----------


## Ascended

> Anyone want to share their favorite era of Dick Grayson - either in characterization or in storylines?


It's a mix between the Wolfman NTT, up to when the marriage to Kori went off the rails, and Dixon's Nightwing solo. 

Dixon did some great stuff building a setting for Dick that was his own. I know everyone here hates Bludhaven, and after the way DC has handled things since Infinite Crisis I get why. And I agree that Dick's not the kind of hero who'd stick to one city. But Dixon gave Dick a setting, a rogues gallery, and a love interest all his own and no one has topped it, though Seeley/King and the Grayson series might've if it had kept going a little longer. 

The NTT stuff never seems to get the credit it deserves for modern era Dick. A lot of character growth and development that I now consider essential reading for Nightwing came from Wolfman. 

The Grayson series was brilliant, and easily the best thing we'd had since the 90's. I really loved that series. But it ended too soon and doesn't seem to have had a lasting impact. It's still one of my favorite Dick Grayson eras, but I don't think it's proven to be as important or defining. And Morrison's DickBats stuff was great too of course, but I don't feel like it reinvented the wheel the same way Wolfman/Dixon/Seely/King did.

----------


## Godlike13

Dixon’s Nightwing, Morrison’s B&R, King/Seeley’s Grayson.

----------


## Tzigone

> It's a mix between the Wolfman NTT, up to when the marriage to Kori went off the rails, and Dixon's Nightwing solo.
> 
> Dixon did some great stuff building a setting for Dick that was his own. I know everyone here hates Bludhaven, and after the way DC has handled things since Infinite Crisis I get why. And I agree that Dick's not the kind of hero who'd stick to one city. But Dixon gave Dick a setting, a rogues gallery, and a love interest all his own.


Those are my favorite eras, too. I was acturally surprised at the hate Bludhaven gets on this board (as surprised as I was for the liking of '90s Tim and Kon - which I prefer).  I don't get why anyone thinks Dick isn't the kind of hero that wouldn't stick to one city, though.  He stayed in Gotham with no real interest in moving as a child.  Had no problem with location in college, was in New York for years, and then (he said) finally found his place in Bludhaven.  A home.  I don't care for mobile heroes or heroes with no steady supporting cast, myself.  I like Dixon's Robin and Nightwing better than Birds of Prey, and one of the reasons was they usually stayed in the same city.  Tim went off to Europe and I couldn't wait for him to get home.

----------


## Ascended

> Those are my favorite eras, too. I was acturally surprised at the hate Bludhaven gets on this board (as surprised as I was for the liking of '90s Tim and Kon - which I prefer).  *I don't get why anyone thinks Dick isn't the kind of hero that wouldn't stick to one city, though.*  He stayed in Gotham with no real interest in moving as a child.  Had no problem with location in college, was in New York for years, and then (he said) finally found his place in Bludhaven.  A home.  I don't care for mobile heroes or heroes with no steady supporting cast, myself.  I like Dixon's Robin and Nightwing better than Birds of Prey, and one of the reasons was they usually stayed in the same city.  Tim went off to Europe and I couldn't wait for him to get home.


For me, it's something I've started thinking only in the last few years. And part of it is informed by choices made in DC's offices, not by the character himself. 

So, he grows up in a travelling circus, which provides some precedent for him having some wanderlust. Then there were a lot of Silver Age stories where he goes off on crazy adventures beyond Gotham, plus a lot of travelling with the Titans and Spyral. And over the last ten-ish years he's lived in Gotham, Chicago, New York, Bludhaven, moved away from and then returned to some of those places, and I think at least one or two other cities. On top of having a lot of globe trotting adventures too. 

And, for me (not speaking for others) his constant changing of jobs and roles influences this view too. He's been a cop, a bartender, a gym owner, a circus owner, I think he was a model briefly.......he was Batman, he was a spy, he was Nightwing......the guy is constantly changing things up, taking new jobs, sorta re-inventing himself. And this is all stuff that comes from DC trying new directions and ideas and not necessarily something that came from the character himself, but the end result is a Dick Grayson who can't seem to stand still. And when someone here mentioned this, it kinda clicked and I was like "Yeah, Dick *is* always moving around, trying new things.....him having some wanderlust does seem fitting." It's basically taking DC's inconsistency with him, and making it work to inform, rather than contradict, who he is.

----------


## Jackalope89

> For me, it's something I've started thinking only in the last few years. And part of it is informed by choices made in DC's offices, not by the character himself. 
> 
> So, he grows up in a travelling circus, which provides some precedent for him having some wanderlust. Then there were a lot of Silver Age stories where he goes off on crazy adventures beyond Gotham, plus a lot of travelling with the Titans and Spyral. And over the last ten-ish years he's lived in Gotham, Chicago, New York, Bludhaven, moved away from and then returned to some of those places, and I think at least one or two other cities. On top of having a lot of globe trotting adventures too. 
> 
> And, for me (not speaking for others) his constant changing of jobs and roles influences this view too. He's been a cop, a bartender, a gym owner, a circus owner, I think he was a model briefly.......he was Batman, he was a spy, he was Nightwing......the guy is constantly changing things up, taking new jobs, sorta re-inventing himself. And this is all stuff that comes from DC trying new directions and ideas and not necessarily something that came from the character himself, but the end result is a Dick Grayson who can't seem to stand still. And when someone here mentioned this, it kinda clicked and I was like "Yeah, Dick *is* always moving around, trying new things.....him having some wanderlust does seem fitting." It's basically taking DC's inconsistency with him, and making it work to inform, rather than contradict, who he is.


Greg Weisman got it right with his version of Dick in Young Justice; he travels all over the place, calling in favors when he needs them, righting wrongs, and catching up with old friends while still helping out younger heroes.

----------


## Tzigone

> And, for me (not speaking for others) his constant changing of jobs and roles influences this view too. He's been a cop, a bartender, a gym owner, a circus owner, I think he was a model briefly.......he was Batman, he was a spy, he was Nightwing......the guy is constantly changing things up, taking new jobs, sorta re-inventing himself. And this is all stuff that comes from DC trying new directions and ideas and not necessarily something that came from the character himself,


That last part is it to me. Unlike those who feel all those things _contribute_ to the character, I think he's gone off the rails and been fairly consistently diminished and downgraded since around 2000 and that his inability to settle (location wise or in relationships) is indicative of a sort of immaturity that has been foisted on a character that was "grown up in the room immature adults" at 19.  I prefer to live in the past.  But it's typical - there are other characters I'm still in pre-crisis-land with in my headcanon.  But I acknowledge headcanon isn't canon.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Those are my favorite eras, too. I was acturally surprised at the hate Bludhaven gets on this board (as surprised as I was for the liking of '90s Tim and Kon - which I prefer).  I don't get why anyone thinks Dick isn't the kind of hero that wouldn't stick to one city, though.  He stayed in Gotham with no real interest in moving as a child.  Had no problem with location in college, was in New York for years, and then (he said) finally found his place in Bludhaven.  A home.  I don't care for mobile heroes or heroes with no steady supporting cast, myself.  I like Dixon's Robin and Nightwing better than Birds of Prey, and one of the reasons was they usually stayed in the same city.  Tim went off to Europe and I couldn't wait for him to get home.


It's more of the visual tone and overall impression that I don't like. The 90s Bludhaven gives me the impression of Batman Year One. It fits Miller's approach for Batman, but I didn't personally like it even for Batman so I'm not interested to read that again for Dick. 

I like the supporting cast from what I've seen. Clancy and Rossbach, for example.

I also like that it gives the vibe of a young adult trying to survive in the world for the first time. Let's say NTT is his college years, Bludhaven is his YA years.

The Rebirth version has a visual I prefer for a hero that's supposed to be a mix of Batman and Superman in name and personality. Fun outside dark inside. 

Problem is, by this point, Dick Grayson has become such a bigger hero. He's been Batman, a Leaguer, an international secret agent, and the first arc of Rebirth has him taking down an international Court of Owls, but then it's back to a small apartment in Bludhaven trying to figure out his place in his world. No. He shouldn't be back to his YA years anymore. 

So this is more of a problem with DC reset button than Bludhaven itself. When Seeley said his secret agent days is him in college and Bludhaven is post-college in an interview I was already muttering oh no

He can stay in Bludhaven if he likes, just not as a YA trying to survive in the world. He's done that. Let him be a manager of Haley's Circus or something.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That last part is it to me. Unlike those who feel all those things _contribute_ to the character, I think he's gone off the rails and been fairly consistently diminished and downgraded since around 2000 and that his inability to settle (location wise or in relationships) is indicative of a sort of immaturity that has been foisted on a character that was "grown up in the room immature adults" at 19.  I prefer to live in the past.  But it's typical - there are other characters I'm still in pre-crisis-land with in my headcanon.  But I acknowledge headcanon isn't canon.


Location? Eh, some people are simply nomadic. And growing up in a traveling circus and then being a founding member of the Titans, he's going to move around a lot.
But I do agree on the relationship part though. And honestly, I like the concept of Mar'i Grayson (not as a LI to Damian, but as a family member). So, him and Star would be together for me.

----------


## Tzigone

> Location? Eh, some people are simply nomadic. And growing up in a traveling circus and then being a founding member of the Titans, he's going to move around a lot.
> But I do agree on the relationship part though.


But the Titans weren't nomadic. At least, not in what I think was their best years. And there's no particular reason moving around in childhood would make one want to move around in adulthood.  Especially since then, he kept his core support group (his parents, and to a lesser extent other circus workers) with him when he moved, which doesn't really work with a single guy moving around.




> Problem is, by this point, Dick Grayson has become such a bigger hero. He's been Batman, a Leaguer, an international secret agent, and the first arc of Rebirth has him taking down an international Court of Owls, but then it's back to a small apartment in Bludhaven trying to figure out his place in his world. No. He shouldn't be back to his YA years anymore.


I think he should have stayed in Bludhaven all along and that he'd already figured out his place in the world. But, alas, DC did not agree with me.

I don't like the de-aging in N52.  I agree he shouldn't be floundering, trying to find his place in the world.  DC just won't let him really, truly be a full-fledged adult because that ages Batman.  It's a tragedy.  He's not the only one afflicted, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.  And he really, really needs to be able to get over certain issues he has with Bruce and his need to prove himself.  Not that that's happening right now, but it's one DC likes to revisit a lot instead of letting him realize that (at least at one point in history) he is highly regarded and respected by the entire superhero community as a fighter, detective and leader.  Before the airhead days, anyway (again, not consistent characterization, but it's been there).  It was something he'd seemingly grown past, but then COIE came along and re-wrote their relationship (especially how he became Nightwing) and it popped up again, and it was fine at 19, but at 25, it's tired.  But DC won't let him be 25+, either.  And this is not the thread to talk about what's happened with Bruce's character since COIE (even though I acknowledge it very successful, business-wise), so I'll stop now.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I love Golden Age Dick and everything following that narrative like NTT and non-Morrison Dickbats, including 88-94 Dick. Quite after NTT but not yet Batfam, prodigal-ish, still trying to figure things out and trying to forgive Bruce is an overlooked and underrated era for him, its my favorite.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think he should have stayed in Bludhaven all along and that he'd already figured out his place in the world. But, alas, DC did not agree with me.
> 
> I don't like the de-aging in N52.  I agree he shouldn't be floundering, trying to find his place in the world.  DC just won't let him really, truly be a full-fledged adult because that ages Batman.  It's a tragedy.  He's not the only one afflicted, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.  And he really, really needs to be able to get over certain issues he has with Bruce and his need to prove himself.  Not that that's happening right now, but it's one DC likes to revisit a lot instead of letting him realize that (at least at one point in history) he is highly regarded and respected by the entire superhero community as a fighter, detective and leader.  Before the airhead days, anyway (again, not consistent characterization, but it's been there).  It was something he'd seemingly grown past, but then COIE came along and re-wrote their relationship (especially how he became Nightwing) and it popped up again, and it was fine at 19, but at 25, it's tired.  But DC won't let him be 25+, either.  And this is not the thread to talk about what's happened with Bruce's character since COIE (even though I acknowledge it very successful, business-wise), so I'll stop now.


Yeah. I realized, not too long ago, that DC's status quo for Nightwing is "getting out of the shadow of the bat". A permanent YA. 

Jason and Babs are YA too, but Jason's status quo is "not following the family code" and Babs is "Batman for teen girls" with their own pros and cons.

----------


## Restingvoice

One thing I always forgot to ask. After Bludhaven was destroyed by Chemo, after Infinite Crisis, after Dick recovered from Alexander Luthor's fatal attack, did he ever go back there to try and recover the city or was it completely flattened with no sign of life?

----------


## Godlike13

He moved to New York.

----------


## Restingvoice

I know that. My question was the city ever salvageable or if anyone, including Dick, tried to rebuild it?

----------


## Ascended

> Greg Weisman got it right with his version of Dick in Young Justice; he travels all over the place, calling in favors when he needs them, righting wrongs, and catching up with old friends while still helping out younger heroes.


Weisman just needs to be given control of all things DC all the time.




> That last part is it to me. Unlike those who feel all those things _contribute_ to the character, I think he's gone off the rails and been fairly consistently diminished and downgraded since around 2000 and that his inability to settle (location wise or in relationships) is indicative of a sort of immaturity that has been foisted on a character that was "grown up in the room immature adults" at 19.  I prefer to live in the past.  But it's typical - there are other characters I'm still in pre-crisis-land with in my headcanon.  But I acknowledge headcanon isn't canon.


Oh, I definitely think he's gone off the rails and DC doesn't know what to do with him, even when they're not trying to actively ruin him. But he's traveled a lot in recent years and has history of traveling as a kid in the circus, so I'm fine with the idea of Dick being a globe trotter. I dont see it as a sign of immaturity, it's just that the guy loves seeing new places and new things. I *do* want him to have a home city to return to, but I quite like Dick Grayson: wandering hero. For one thing, it helps separate him and distinguish him from Bruce a little, and since Dick returned to the Batman editorial office there hasn't been enough of that. I get you on the pre-Crisis mindset, I'm like that with some characters too (JSA, Superman, others), but the canon itself now supports a traveling Nightwing and I just happen to be down with the idea.  :Big Grin: 




> One thing I always forgot to ask. After Bludhaven was destroyed by Chemo, after Infinite Crisis, after Dick recovered from Alexander Luthor's fatal attack, did he ever go back there to try and recover the city or was it completely flattened with no sign of life?


I *think* there was a brief scene where Dick went back. I believe there were groups like the DEO and Atomic Knights who were trying to clean up the radiation and everything (this would have been after Final Crisis maybe?) and Dick was basically "Well, nothing I can do here, these guys got it and I don't do hazmat." And that was it. 

And I might even be imagining that much. Pretty disappointing given that he had lived there for years by that point and had friends who died in the blast.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I *think* there was a brief scene where Dick went back. I believe there were groups like the DEO and Atomic Knights who were trying to clean up the radiation and everything (this would have been after Final Crisis maybe?) and Dick was basically "Well, nothing I can do here, these guys got it and I don't do hazmat." And that was it. 
> 
> And I might even be imagining that much. Pretty disappointing given that he had lived there for years by that point and had friends who died in the blast.


That. That was the confirmation I want. I get the feeling it's something like that. 

Basically what I was thinking when I ask that question is the difference between No Man's Land and Infinite Crisis. How much Gotham means to Bruce and Bludhaven means to Dick. Both inside the narrative and by DC as a company themselves.

Well, the fact that it was unceremoniously destroyed despite all the years of world-building given into it in an unrelated event instead of making it about the town and the hero was already a huge flag, but the way the aftermath is handled just seals the deal. 

Despite Nightwing was saved from Infinite Crisis execution, it didn't matter to DC that he lost the town, friends and supporting cast, and despite bringing it back on Rebirth, I still don't see a sign that Bludhaven or Nightwing matters to DC _now_

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I’m pretty sure ppl were super angry at N52 NW for removing Bludhaven and now y’all want it gone.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Im pretty sure ppl were super angry at N52 NW for removing Bludhaven and now yall want it gone.


Its yall its some

I dont know why, I like him having his own city to protect. A place where other can find him. The only thing blushs Ben is missing is his blockbuster.

----------


## byrd156

> I know that. My question was the city ever salvageable or if anyone, including Dick, tried to rebuild it?


If you really want to torture yourself go read Battle for Bludhaven.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

> I’m pretty sure ppl were super angry at N52 NW for removing Bludhaven and now y’all want it gone.


Huh, Bludhaven was long gone way before the New 52.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If you really want to torture yourself go read Battle for Bludhaven.


By bad storytelling or bad company decision... oh... it's listed under Linkara video. Probably both. 

It's a Final Crisis Aftermath with Tim Titans so I'm guessing Dick was still at the JL hospital or something at this point?

----------


## Badou

> I’m pretty sure ppl were super angry at N52 NW for removing Bludhaven and now y’all want it gone.


To be fair I've always wanted it gone and as more time goes on I feel like I'm proven more and more right. It was fine place for Dixon's original story arc, but it was unremarkable in every single way when it was introduced and should not be the place that "defined" the character for years afterwards. 

I've repeated this a lot but Dick isn't from Bludhaven, he didn't grow up there, none of his family is from there, he didn't create any of his heroic identities there, none of his friends or other heroes are from there, none of the teams he was part of are there, and so on. To try and say Dick has some similar attachment to Bludhaven that a Bruce has to a Gotham is just absurd. It is an overvalued piece of history that fans need to move on from in my eyes.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Huh, Bludhaven was long gone way before the New 52.


Yeah but people were complaining about why Dick was in Gotham and then moved to Chicago since back then Infinite Crisis wasn't canon I believe and bludhaven was still out there

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> To be fair I've always wanted it gone and as more time goes on I feel like I'm proven more and more right. It was fine place for Dixon's original story arc, but it was unremarkable in every single way when it was introduced and should not be the place that "defined" the character for years afterwards. 
> 
> I've repeated this a lot but Dick isn't from Bludhaven, he didn't grow up there, none of his family is from there, he didn't create any of his heroic identities there, none of his friends or other heroes are from there, none of the teams he was part of are there, and so on. To try and say Dick has some similar attachment to Bludhaven that a Bruce has to a Gotham is just absurd. It is an overvalued piece of history that fans need to move on from in my eyes.


Chicago was a more better fit cuz of Zucco and Dick's old friend from the circus was also there. But I also think Dick works better traveling and staying in Gotham for 1-2 issue rather than claim a city.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah but people were complaining about why Dick was in Gotham and then moved to Chicago since back then Infinite Crisis wasn't canon I believe and bludhaven was still out there


At that time the complaints were more about how Dick was downgraded, and if his stint as Batman would matter now. I can't remember there ever being much outcry for Bludhaven's return.

----------


## Restingvoice

I was over at the Dream Comics thread trying to divide members of the massive Batman family between titles based on location and realized there's a huge imbalance. Most of the Batman family operates in Gotham, even people who disagree ideologically like Batman, Batwoman, and Red Hood. Even Burnside is actually a district in Gotham.

Some of them really should move to Bludhaven. It's a city, dang it. Divide it by district like Gotham and give them their own place to run around. 

Some of them obviously can't since they have a home in Gotham, like the Fox family and the Row family, and the underage people in Wayne Manor that's tied to the Batman brand like Robin and Duke also can't, but the more nomadic heroes can, like Red Hood, Red Robin, Azrael, maybe even Catwoman.

Also Flamebird. It's not like Batwoman wants her. 

Nightwing isn't that much of a stickler to rules like Batman or Batwoman, and the three Wayne bros have a pretty good relationship. Jason will probably be happier this way. 

This doesn't mean they're subservient to Nightwing. They still have their own titles. Just set in a different location that's not Gotham.

----------


## Arsenal

I dont think Jason or Dick should even have home cities that they primarily operate out of tbh

I say just give them a HQ of some sorts to operate out of and set them loose on the DCU.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I dont think Jason or Dick should even have home cities that they primarily operate out of tbh
> 
> I say just give them a HQ of some sorts to operate out of and set them loose on the DCU.


Whats wrong with having a home? I okay for a 12 issue adventure around the world the universe the multi verse 
But to wander around all the time makes you a vagabond

----------


## Arsenal

> What’s wrong with having a home? I okay for a 12 issue adventure around the world the universe the multi verse 
> But to wander around all the time makes you a vagabond


What’s wrong with being a vagabond? Besides, I never said they shouldn’t have a home. Just that I think it would be a mistake for both characters to be kept cooped up in one city for to long.

----------


## Godlike13

Things can become too formulaic with stationary places. Which for characters like Dick can spell trouble. Though a lack of stability or consistency isn’t necessarily ideal either.

----------


## Badou

Dick grew up in a traveling circus. If any character is comfortable being a vagabond it would be him. There are only two places Dick should call "home". It would be Haly's Circus and Gotham. He has deep roots to those places.

Gotham is a fine place to collect himself between story arcs, or even use whatever is the Titans or JL base if you are inclined, but I don't see why Dick needs his own city that is completely dead weight to him with nothing of value in it to be considered a proper hero.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick grew up in a traveling circus. If any character is comfortable being a vagabond it would be him. There are only two places Dick should call "home". It would be Haly's Circus and Gotham. He has deep roots to those places.
> 
> Gotham is a fine place to collect himself between story arcs, or even use whatever is the Titans or JL base if you are inclined, but I don't see why Dick needs his own city that is completely dead weight to him with nothing of value in it to be considered a proper hero.


Thats was with his family, it didnt matter where thy lived becuase they were together. Now his family is in Gotham so why not call it home

----------


## Aahz

> I was over at the Dream Comics thread trying to divide members of the massive Batman family between titles based on location and realized there's a huge imbalance. Most of the Batman family operates in Gotham, even people who disagree ideologically like Batman, Batwoman, and Red Hood. Even Burnside is actually a district in Gotham.
> 
> Some of them really should move to Bludhaven. It's a city, dang it. Divide it by district like Gotham and give them their own place to run around.


Blüdhaven, might technically not be a part of Gotham but it is still very close, during the Dixon era, it was never a problem for Dick to visit Gotham or for the others to visit him (Barbara used to pop up quite frequently, Tim a little bit less, and Huntress also one or two times).

And Blüdhaven is much smaller the Gotham, it has probaly the size of one of Gothams districts, or is even a bit smaller.

I would prefer if some of the others would get their own setting over them moving to Blüdhaven.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Blüdhaven, might technically not be a part of Gotham but it is still very close, during the Dixon era, it was never a problem for Dick to visit Gotham or for the others to visit him (Barbara used to pop up quite frequently, Tim a little bit less, and Huntress also one or two times).
> 
> And Blüdhaven is much smaller the Gotham, it has probaly the size of one of Gothams districts, or is even a bit smaller.
> 
> I would prefer if some of the others would get their own setting over them moving to Blüdhaven.


By one district is it the size of one of Gotham's three islands or even smaller?

Nevermind, I checked the maps. Yeah, it does look like it's not even the size of one of Gotham's islands. Half an island maybe. That's way smaller than I thought.

----------


## WonderNight

Nightwing just needs to be different, nightwing is no different than the other dozen rooftop running at night batfam members. Fighting crime in gotham or gotham like city. It's the main reason DC doesn't know what to do with the character. Remember didios biggest problem with him besides ageing batman is that nightwing is REDUNDENT with the rest of the batfam. It's the reason why his status quo keeps getting shaken up every 2 or 3 years now.

That's why things that ties nightwing down to just Batman and batman lite just hurt nightwing in the long run. Nightwing should have been spun off by now honestly.

----------


## L.H.

https://www.dcuniverse.com/community...vorite-dc-univ

DCU poll for your favorite DC Universe originale character, Dick is twice on the list, both in Titans and Young Justice: Outsiders versions

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Saw pieces of the new issue *spoilers:*
he basically reveals his past to hes and says he doesnt care about the rich man(Bruce),kid(Damian),babs and Alfred 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

It was such a tread water issue. You would think there would be more urgency given the title being at all time lows, but no. Nothing. It just repeated the same thing over and over till the offer at the end. This is why these protected good old boys just need to go. There’s no accountability, so there’s no hunger or vigor and no real drive or investment.
 I actually almost don’t want Jurgan's to bring Dick back, cause what would he be bringing him back to. A title that in now firmly in the the gutter and bottom of barrel creators who don’t actually care. It’d be better for Dick if they let this title die with Ric, and then go out and find better, hungrier, creators to start over with Dick.

----------


## king81992

> Saw pieces of the new issue *spoilers:*
> he basically reveals his past to he’s and says he doesn’t care about the rich man(Bruce),kid(Damian),babs and Alfred 
> *end of spoilers*


That's really harsh, especially when you consider everything he's been through with those guys.

----------


## Godlike13

But he doesn’t remember, and he can’t remember, and he has no memory of the them...

----------


## Rac7d*

> Saw pieces of the new issue *spoilers:*
> he basically reveals his past to hes and says he doesnt care about the rich man(Bruce),kid(Damian),babs and Alfred 
> *end of spoilers*


yup saw it too, been a while since damian got a mention, probably because it be too cold to deny a child you practically raised and justify it
*spoilers:*
I like the direction of this ,  talon is on the chess board, those newbs are gonna get injures beyond returning to the fold and bea will get hurt bad, he will have no choice but to give up the ric stick and end this nightmare

*end of spoilers* Nightwing/Graysong return 2020

----------


## Rac7d*

> It was such a tread water issue. You would think there would be more urgency given the title being at all time lows, but no. Nothing. It just repeated the same thing over and over till the offer at the end. This is why these protected good old boys just need to go. There’s no accountability, so there’s no hunger or vigor and no real drive or investment.
>  I actually almost don’t want Jurgan's to bring Dick back, cause what would he be bringing him back to. A title that in now firmly in the the gutter and bottom of barrel creators who don’t actually care. It’d be better for Dick if they let this title die with Ric, and then go out and find better, hungrier, creators to start over with Dick.


Sounds like your asking for a new number 1, which I bet we will get anyway when he rembers
 I never had an issue with pacing before its just i have no intrest in the the Ric stories

----------


## Godlike13

There was no story, he says this is my story and then just monologues how he doesn’t remember over and over for the whole issue, till Lex makes Talon his offer. There no actually story here though, or much of anything. I don’t understand. The book keeps sinking lower and lower, it’s now at its all time low, and they are still letting these old guys just tread water like this with no care. And Jurgan’s attempt at lingos like ‘sick moves’ and ‘don’t get torqued’. Just brutal. So dorky. And having random people on the street commenting how cool Ric is. Like come on.

----------


## nhienphan2808

What I always hated and where Didio truely wins in this is how this keeps getting dragged on. If you don’t care for a character, cancel the book. But no, he isn’t even granted that mercy. Everybody would remember Ric with shame now and I’m in pain thinking this is what new fans will be exposed to. It’s judt straight up immoral damage of intellectual property now.

----------


## Smilingblade

Hey guys, so I found this picture of Dick as Nighting with what looks like a utility belt. Any idea what book/issue this is from?

tumblr_psqonfcVyj1stv50t_540.jpg

----------


## OWL45

Issue was more of a set up issue but its a step in the right direction. Interested in Talon coming back in the picture and where it will lead. He is the most relevant villian to appear in the book sense this Ric stuff and has a legitimate connection to the character and his past. Im just glad it seems they may do something with the character and he is part of a major event this time around.

----------


## Badou

There is no right direction with Ric. It is all bad even if they bring Dick back because DC doesn't care. They basically have Ric as Nightwing anyway in some crappy costume and have him doing something that he said for issue after issue he didn't want to do, but he is still bitching about his past despite doing things he didn't want to do and wanted to move on from? The whole narrative direction is just ridiculous. 

And I wouldn't call some shitty tie in to an event that every DC book is tying into as being part of a major event.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There is no right direction with Ric. It is all bad even if they bring Dick back because DC doesn't care. They basically have Ric as Nightwing anyway in some crappy costume and have him doing something that he said for issue after issue he didn't want to do, but he is still bitching about his past despite doing things he didn't want to do and wanted to move on from? The whole narrative direction is just ridiculous. 
> 
> And I wouldn't call some shitty tie in to an event that every DC book is tying into as being part of a major event.



RIC thing is temporary, were eventually gonna get to a moment where he is suddenly dick again,  thease supporting chracters have nothing to tie them down their all expendable, now that we have seen bea sleep with rick if she aint preganant she is for sure gonna die. Talon is gonna leave him with no options, the stress will unlock Dick grayson who will have to bear the baggage for 2 people

this issue was nothing till the end but it gave us some hope and I am ready to grasp on to anything,

----------


## Badou

> RIC thing is temporary, were eventually gonna get to a moment where he is suddenly dick again,  thease supporting chracters have nothing to tie them down their all expendable, now that we have seen bea sleep with rick if she aint preganant she is for sure gonna die. Talon is gonna leave him with no options, the stress will unlock Dick grayson who will have to bear the baggage for 2 people
> 
> this issue was nothing till the end but it gave us some hope and I am ready to grasp on to anything,


Hope for what though? What evidence do you have that anything will get better even if Ric ends and Dick comes back given how DC looks at and has treated the character? 

But maybe people will be happy if he calls himself Dick again, wearing blue, and is doing the same shit he was doing before this started.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Editorial is doing to us what Bane did to Batman in the current story.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hope for what though? What evidence do you have that anything will get better even if Ric ends and Dick comes back given how DC looks at and has treated the character? 
> 
> But maybe people will be happy if he calls himself Dick again, wearing blue, and is doing the same shit he was doing before this started.


Yes we will be happy. And if we can get back to status quo while the tv show is airing he be picking up new readers rather then turning people off like it has been for the last few months

----------


## Godlike13

Readers aren’t just gonna come back. Die hards maybe, but general readers need more then just a return to old with boring creators. And even then it’d be an uphill battle after a year of blatant undaunted shit like this.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Readers arent just gonna come back. Die hards maybe, but general readers need more then just a return to old with boring creators. And even then itd be an uphill battle after a year of blatant undaunted shit like this.


I think theyll come back their just waiting for the mess to be over. Amnesia bullshit in a world of purple rays and telepaths is stupid. Bruce went through something similar 4 years ago so we cant be fooled into thinking its permanent. Dick has 3 months to get himself together.

----------


## bearman

This Dick Grayson thread used to be one of the busiest on these boards.
Rick has made us all indifferent to the character, as postings have slowed down considerably.

----------


## K. Jones

> Readers arent just gonna come back. Die hards maybe, but general readers need more then just a return to old with boring creators. And even then itd be an uphill battle after a year of blatant undaunted shit like this.


I gave this a little thought and tend to agree. 

Although I will say that if Seeley jumped back on this book with a solid artist, even if the direction was still "Ric", I'd probably pick it back up.

----------


## Ascended

> This Dick Grayson thread used to be one of the busiest on these boards.
> Rick has made us all indifferent to the character, as postings have slowed down considerably.


I'm not indifferent to the character, I just refuse to support this stupid story. I'll come back when DC gets their act together and gives us a Nightwing worth reading about.

But the thread has definitely slowed down. But....what is there to say? Oh, the latest issue was crap, just like all the others? The direction is still lousy? Hard to talk in an appreciation thread when the character isn't getting anything to appreciate. And the shows with Dick, Titans and YJ, were on hiatus for a while so we didn't even have that stuff to talk about.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This Dick Grayson thread used to be one of the busiest on these boards.
> Rick has made us all indifferent to the character, as postings have slowed down considerably.


Titans trailer comin Batman hush this weekend

I mean it if people rally for live action nightwing, then dick Grayson will be saved

----------


## K. Jones

I dropped Nightwing a while back because I have to agree ... "Ric" is a stupid direction. But I do like at least the high concept of some cops and firefighters wearing old Nightwing costumes and being copycats. That story could've been great if done right.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

If anyone at DC cared, they could salvage those characters imo. They're fine as background characters, and would give good reason to get Dick out of Bludhaven (since he can leave the city to them) and good reason to bring him back for short storylines if necessary (not that I really want this, but generally you want to keep as many doors open lol). Once Dick is actually back with his memories and all, he could train them properly and prepare them. Call them the Crusaders.

Of course there's lots of Seeley, Humphries, and Percy characters and concepts worth salvaging too, not to mention even Higgins stuff that someone could rework now... but I don't see why anyone would care about any of this, and more importantly I don't see who would.

----------


## Rac7d*

is this jacket something commoners can buy?

----------


## Godlike13

> If anyone at DC cared, they could salvage those characters imo. They're fine as background characters, and would give good reason to get Dick out of Bludhaven (since he can leave the city to them) and good reason to bring him back for short storylines if necessary (not that I really want this, but generally you want to keep as many doors open lol). Once Dick is actually back with his memories and all, he could train them properly and prepare them. Call them the Crusaders.
> 
> Of course there's lots of Seeley, Humphries, and Percy characters and concepts worth salvaging too, not to mention even Higgins stuff that someone could rework now... but I don't see why anyone would care about any of this, and more importantly I don't see who would.


The characters would just be a reminder of Ric. They need to move away from everything about Ric. Its all tainted.

----------


## Restingvoice

Apparently, Nightwing has a pretty good showing in the animated Hush. He's in there a lot, and there's no jobbing.

----------


## Ascended

> The characters would just be a reminder of Ric. They need to move away from everything about Ric. Its all tainted.


Well, I agree that the concepts *could* be salvaged. I'm not a fan of throwing stuff out of a mythos and prefer seeing bad things re-worked into positive elements. Even someone as terrible as Kite-Man can become viable and interesting with the right spin. And many of us here talk about wanting to see Dick get a sidekick.....well, here's four characters who, with some work, might become viable legacies. Not sidekick material perhaps, but legacies. 

However, I also agree that right now, it's probably best to move on and forget everything about Ric for a while. Get Dick Grayson back on his feet, back in costume, back into good stories. Then, after the dust has settled and we've put some distance between us and Ric......I wouldn't necessarily be against the idea of re-visiting the copycats, using the time away from them as an excuse to justify whatever adjustments and changes need to be made to make them worthwhile additions to Dick's world. 

I wont be losing any sleep if they are never seen again (which they likely wont be) but I think they *could* be used to good effect.....eventually. But the scars from Ric have to heal before readers are willing to even look at them without spitting at them, yknow?

----------


## Godlike13

Its not even like they are particularly unique or fleshed out characters. They could make new characters, ones that Dick didn't become a sidekick too and don't carry the taint of Ric, if they wanted to revisit the copycat concept. Though We Are Robin barely made it 12 issues. It was brain dead stupid they thought they could regurgitate that this soon onto Nightwing in the first place, and if it wasn't due to the obvious sheer conceptual laziness of the books editors and the upper management on the character i would never understand how anyone at DC allowed that to fly. When something clearly gets no response, you don't keep doing it over and over. Plus quite frankly Dick has enough copycats as it is.

----------


## Ascended

> Its not even like they are particularly unique or fleshed out characters. They could make new characters, ones that Dick didn't become a sidekick too and don't carry the taint of Ric, if they wanted to revisit the copycat concept. Though We Are Robin barely made it 12 issues. It was brain dead stupid they thought they could regurgitate that this soon onto Nightwing in the first place, and if it wasn't due to the obvious sheer conceptual laziness of the books editors and the upper management on the character i would never understand how anyone at DC allowed that to fly. When something clearly gets no response, you don't keep doing it over and over. Plus quite frankly Dick has enough copycats as it is.


No, they don't seem to be all that interesting or well crafted (not reading the book so all I have are previews and random scans to judge by). But all it takes is a good writer and that can change. DC could definitely introduce new faces if they want to (someday) revisit the copycat idea, and I doubt anyone would really argue about not seeing the current ones again (I certainly wouldnt, nor do I really need to see copycats at all). I'm just saying something good *could* come of them. And in three/five/seven years (or whenever) Ric is going to be a distant memory so I dont think the taint will matter much. It matters today, but a few years from now? Not as much.

The current copycats are awful, but at least they've got a foundation a good writer could build from and improve on, which is a small benefit over using brand new characters. That's all I'm saying.

----------


## Drako

> Apparently, Nightwing has a pretty good showing in the animated Hush. He's in there a lot, and there's no jobbing.


Apparently someone on Reddit said otherwise.




> Hush is right up there with the Killing Joke adaptation in terms of disappointment. The animation is very sketchy compared to recent DCEAU entries. They kept Nightwing in the story, but the most action he got was (SPOILERS) getting his butt kicked by Scarecrow and needing Catwoman to save him.
> 
> I won't spoil the plot, but the twist at the end really ruined a lot imo. What do you guys think?


https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/c...unity_to_tell/

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Now this is Dick Grayson. Sas Milledge is a good fit imo. 
peak Grayson.jpg

Anyways, I'm not sure what to think about Hush since we've gotten conflicting reports in this thread...

----------


## Rac7d*

> Apparently someone on Reddit said otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/c...unity_to_tell/


It was a pretty good movie.  If you weren’t ready for the deviations then you’re not paying attention to the films

----------


## Lazurus33

> It was a pretty good movie.  If you weren’t ready for the deviations then you’re not paying attention to the films


You are right it was a good movie.  Nightwing was very good until that one scene, and the scarecrow was using fear toxin. The movie was more of a Batman/Catwoman love story, than a movie about Hush.

----------


## Rac7d*

> You are right it was a good movie.  Nightwing was very good until that one scene, and the scarecrow was using fear toxin. The movie was more of a Batman/Catwoman love story, than a movie about Hush.


I was trying not spoil others but whatever,
 Nightwing is not part of the final act so the movie improvised to remove him
Bruce and Selina relationship was alway a big piece of Hush

To be honest I always felt most of these movie would be better of made into 8-10 20 min episodes to follow the storlines closer
but i can understand that you have to deviate when your film forces you to condense everything into 120 mins Even Under the red hoods did not keep  everything

where is this from

----------


## Restingvoice

> I was trying not spoil others but whatever,
>  Nightwing is not part of the final act so the movie improvised to remove him
> Bruce and Selina relationship was alway a big piece of Hush
> 
> To be honest I always felt most of these movie would be better of made into 8-10 20 min episodes to follow the storlines closer
> but i can understand that you have to deviate when your film forces you to condense everything into 120 mins Even Under the red hoods did not keep  everything
> 
> where is this from


Superman American Alien

----------


## Rac7d*

Thease look nice

----------


## L.H.

> Superman American Alien


Always loved this issue, Dick was perfect

----------


## Rac7d*

some concept art

----------


## yohyoi

> Thease look nice


That does in fact look nice. I love it. Multiple weapons. Ninja hair. Wolf mask looks amazing. Ofcourse, I need to see the statue first. Nightwing merch is top notch.

----------


## yohyoi

> some concept art


Best Robin costume. Looks badass and practical. They should make this his costume in the comics. They already gave Tim's staff to Dick. Why not go all in the costume too? It's basically iconic due to being used by Dick in outside media.

----------


## Restingvoice

Young Justice gets a Season 4

----------


## Ascended

That's awesome news. 

I expect Damian and Jon Kent to debut, along with a big time jump to get them of age. Probably get DickBats as well, since Kaldur became Aquaman this season. 

Been waiting for YJ to finish before subscribing to DCU so I can binge it, how much time does the show have left?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Best Robin costume. Looks badass and practical. They should make this his costume in the comics. They already *gave Tim's staff to Dick*. Why not go all in the costume too? It's basically iconic due to being used by Dick in outside media.


I get a migrain every time I read this TIM owns nothing

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's awesome news. 
> 
> I expect Damian and Jon Kent to debut, along with a big time jump to get them of age. Probably get DickBats as well, since Kaldur became Aquaman this season. 
> 
> Been waiting for YJ to finish before subscribing to DCU so I can binge it, how much time does the show have left?


the way things are going, it will be complete right before titans debut,

----------


## Frontier

> Now this is Dick Grayson. Sas Milledge is a good fit imo. 
> Attachment 84794
> 
> Anyways, I'm not sure what to think about Hush since we've gotten conflicting reports in this thread...


Dick's love interest looks cute. 



> Thease look nice


The middle is a little too Green Arrow.

Makes me wonder if Roy ever taught Dick some archery...or Dick helped Roy with his aim, sometimes?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick's love interest looks cute. 
> 
> The middle is a little too Green Arrow.
> 
> Makes me wonder if Roy ever taught Dick some archery...or Dick helped Roy with his aim, sometimes?


Nah I think his proficiency with any weapon is just another Batman thing

----------


## byrd156

> Best Robin costume. Looks badass and practical. They should make this his costume in the comics. They already gave Tim's staff to Dick. Why not go all in the costume too? It's basically iconic due to being used by Dick in outside media.


Too much black and the yellow stripes are too low. They look weird on his stomach instead of his chest.

----------


## Badou

Not really a surprise, but no mention of Dick or his shitty book at SDCC. I think Jurgens was at one panel where he said the same garbage he said in that Newsarama interview when he started on the book. About how writing a Dick with no connection to Batman is "interesting" or something, but nothing by DC in how badly fans look at the whole Ric story. DC really doesn't care, and sadly it looks like fans no longer care enough as compared to the Wally situation where his fans are constantly going at DC and getting some response from them.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, were screwed. Ric isn't ending anytime soon. Which just sucks as Jurgan's is so blatantly tapped out, says one thing yet does nothing of what he says. Notice how he never actually says anything about what he's gonna do with the idea. Its pretty clear he can't find crap, as if he’s even trying lol. Didio should have asked him what it is like to be writing the worst selling Nightwing. Though SDCC was an embarrassing display for DC's comic division in general. They brought nothing.

----------


## Pohzee

Who would think that ComicCon is for comic books?

----------


## byrd156

> Ya, were screwed. Ric isn't ending anytime soon. Which just sucks as Jurgan's is so blatantly tapped out, says one thing yet does nothing of what he says. Notice how he never actually says anything about what he's gonna do with the idea. Its pretty clear he can't find crap, as if he’s even trying lol. Didio should have asked him what it is like to be writing the worst selling Nightwing. Though SDCC was an embarrassing display for DC's comic division in general. They brought nothing.


They have nothing to bring. Why do you think DC just now realizing that they need to finally determine the details of their own universe/continuity? It's insane to expect anything good out of DC right now.

----------


## Flash Gordon

The TITANS show is actually really good. Just bought the blu ray on a whim! 

Dick Grayson looks like he walked off the page.

----------


## Restingvoice

Didio said they want to fix the DC timeline maybe in 2020 
The Wally West Flash Forward series is set to kick off the 2020 event
80th anniversary of Detective Comics #38 is in 2020

Now assuming Ric's Year of The Villain doesn't happen before Event Leviathan where Ric can be turned into a Talon or somehow Dr. Dedalus manage to revive inside Dick's mind to take over his body and destroy the spy world using the name Leviathan... which I can only find out once they do an actual reveal... I was hoping on October 2019 since that's exactly a year after Ric debuted... 

There will be another year of Ric just in time for his 80th anniversary and the line-wide timeline fixing.

I... at least make him a Talon for the remainder of the year.

Is this Year of The Villain thing going to last... yeah I think it's gonna last a year. It's the darkness before the dawn that is the timeline fixing. They like to do that.

Also, Dick is Nightwing again in Doomsday Clock which is supposed to take place a year from "now" so it kinda fits...

You know what... leading up to 2020 event with Wally trying to fix things, Dick as a Talon for Year of The Villain, and Roy revived as Leviathan sounds like something they do. Each of the broken has a role leading up to a revival.

----------


## Godlike13

The Flash Forward series is a prime example of one of DC’s current problems. They talk a big game, but then support it with the likes of Scott Lobdell. Which says all that needs to be said about how important it actually is. It’s pretty clear DC doesn’t plan anything long term. They make things up as they go and then react. They probably don’t have any more clue when Ric is ending then we do. They seem perfectly content with it, and happy to let it give a good old boy like Jurgan’s work. Regardless if he’s at all time lows with it. Fixing it and going out to recruit actual new or relevant talent would require more work then anyone on the character is interested in putting in. My guess is Ric will end when it becomes most convenient for them to end it.

----------


## yohyoi

DiDio has no right to complain about the dying comic industry when a lot of his choices led to it. Listen to the fans.

----------


## dietrich

> Best Robin costume. Looks badass and practical. They should make this his costume in the comics. They already gave Tim's staff to Dick. Why not go all in the costume too? It's basically iconic due to being used by Dick in outside media.


Well sometimes you have to take back your stuff. This Robin was designed by Neal Adams for Dick Grayson in the then upcoming Burton Batman movie.

It was commissioned and paid for by WB. When the introduction of Robin was later pushed back DC execs loved the updated costume so much that they lobbied to have it for their new Robin in the comics  [They were all set to launch their new Robin Tim with a brand new costume by Norm  Beryfogle]

Neal Adams designed this outfit for Dick Grayson Robin. 
It was inspired by Dick Grayson, his Robin growing up and it's simply an updated version of his old costume
The updates and revisions where based on Dick Grayson needs as an Acrobat and his personality.

He still calls it his Greatest gift to Dick Grayson in recent interviews. 

Thanks for the Staff Tim  [these days they give that to every Robin] but Big Bro's taking his costume back   :Stick Out Tongue: 

The *'Best Suit'* because it was inspired  and designed for the Best Robin.


though I like Damian's suit's the best. Both the ones with the high lace up DM's  and the current Al Ghul inspired one with the skirt. Plus Dami's  got a  Hoodie

----------


## dietrich

> Didio said they want to fix the DC timeline maybe in 2020 
> The Wally West Flash Forward series is set to kick off the 2020 event
> 80th anniversary of Detective Comics #38 is in 2020
> 
> Now assuming Ric's Year of The Villain doesn't happen before Event Leviathan where Ric can be turned into a Talon or somehow Dr. Dedalus manage to revive inside Dick's mind to take over his body and destroy the spy world using the name Leviathan... which I can only find out once they do an actual reveal... I was hoping on October 2019 since that's exactly a year after Ric debuted... 
> 
> There will be another year of Ric just in time for his 80th anniversary and the line-wide timeline fixing.
> 
> I... at least make him a Talon for the remainder of the year.
> ...


But why?   Why drag this  rubbish  out? What  is  the  point  of  Ric story arc? It's not interesting, it's not interesting or controversial, it add's nothing of value to any character, DC, any IP, any creator. What is the point?

Even if they are planning on a big universe fix, what is the point of carrying on this shit? They can fix it without dragging Dick Grayson through the muck.

----------


## Ascended

> But why?   Why drag this  rubbish  out? What  is  the  point  of  Ric story arc? It's not interesting, it's not interesting or controversial, it add's nothing of value to any character, DC, any IP, any creator. What is the point?
> 
> Even if they are planning on a big universe fix, what is the point of carrying on this shit? They can fix it without dragging Dick Grayson through the muck.


At this point all that makes sense is that they're doing this so Dick is off the table, out of sight and out of mind. Didio can't justify cancelling the book when it's one of DC's most reliable titles, he can't justify killing the character when even a whiff of that sends fandom into a rage-induced fury (he's tried it before) but what he *can* do is push Dick into a status quo and direction that completely cuts him off from everyone and everything else; the Bat clan, the Titans, big Events, our homeless drunk wants nothing to do with any of it. 

Didio's found a way to kill Dick Grayson without actually killing Dick Grayson.

----------


## L.H.

> But why?   Why drag this  rubbish  out? What  is  the  point  of  Ric story arc? It's not interesting, it's not interesting or controversial, it add's nothing of value to any character, DC, any IP, any creator. What is the point?
> 
> Even if they are planning on a big universe fix, what is the point of carrying on this shit? They can fix it without dragging Dick Grayson through the muck.


IMHO, King needed Batman alone in City of Bane, so they decided the amnesia plot: Ric doesn't care about his past, so he doesn't go to help Bruce. I don't believe in what he said about Zatanna, King lied before, and he clearly planned a Batman broken and alone for this arc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> IMHO, King needed Batman alone in City of Bane, so they decided the amnesia plot: Ric doesn't care about his past, so he doesn't go to help Bruce. I don't believe in what he said about Zatanna, King lied before, and he clearly planned a Batman broken and alone for this arc.


How can he be a lone with the gigantic family, you can't take them all out

----------


## dietrich

> IMHO, King needed Batman alone in City of Bane, so they decided the amnesia plot: Ric doesn't care about his past, so he doesn't go to help Bruce. I don't believe in what he said about Zatanna, King lied before, and he clearly planned a Batman broken and alone for this arc.


I understand that Batman is a Juggernut. One of the most valuable properties in the world but DC's pin everything on Batman Strategy is lazy and blocks growth.

I'm used to DC favouring Batman over others. I'm used to them using other characters as devices to drive his plot but this is too much.
Like @Ascended said. They are killing Dick Grayson without killing him . This is worse than if they killed him off. They are killing interest in this character. I'm at a point where I'm tapped out. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to be angry.

Batman isolated from everyone he cares about. Dick getting shot. Loss of memory. Bane breaking the Bat. Batman proposing and then getting dumped. 

These are hardly original or fresh ideas. These have been done before and executed without throwing icons under the bus.

King's Masterpiece of regurgitated idea's isn't worth one good character.  DC is making a very stupid mistake in allowing creators and others with a vested interest tarnish these long serving characters like Dick and Wally.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Didio said they want to fix the DC timeline maybe in 2020


Actually, he said that they're making a timeline. As in a set timeline, from Year 0 stuff to the present, and then probably far future stuff like Bendis-Legion stuff. Maybe someone will work Batman Beyond stuff in, and maybe Snyder will get to throw in JSA stuff in the past, as well as Kamandi and JL One Million stuff in the future. It means nothing good for Nightwing fans, especially since it's probably going to be more like the N52 and make Dick start as Robin at 15-16, spend like two years with the Teen Titans, and maybe even skip over his time as Batman and a Spyral agent entirely because they couldn't care less.

What we do know about the Year of the Villain is that there's supposed to be a "Takeover" in November with special covers, so by then we should either have William Cobb hijacking the book, or Ric as a Talon. Who knows what they have planned after that.

King's stuff is still not done and won't be until Batman #85, then he'll get to play by himself with Batman/Catwoman and hopefully leave Nightwing fans alone. 
Snyder's Doom War hasn't started yet so who knows when that'll end and if they plan to relaunch any books with that (worse, we don't know for sure if Nightwing is one they want to relaunch, as much as it would make sense to). 
Snyder himself has said Doomsday Clock is its own thing (when referring to how his JSA content works with Johns'), there's a high likelihood that it'll either retcon itself out or is already just being ignored, just think about Bendis aging up Jon and sending him to the future with the Legion. On top of that, we have no idea when Doomsday Clock will end due to all the delays. 
Back to Bendis, we also don't know what he'll do next after Leviathan and what that means for the DCU. So sure, we might get evil Roy, but that doesn't indicate anything about a revival of Nightwing or the Titans. 
Didio has also said he's going to put Wally through the wringer again the next year (a joke or...? hard to say with him) so Flash Forward doesn't mean anything for Nightwing either. 
There's also the likelihood that Donna is one of the corrupted heroes as part of Batman/Superman, so that's another Titan down. It's a lot more likely that DC is currently looking at the Titans as fodder and not thinking about some grand revival, as unfortunate as that is.

Typing all that out actually kind of hurt lol. But on the more positive side, yeah, next year is Dick's 80th. I'm sure they'll do something, eventually, even if it only turns out halfway decent like Batman and Robin Eternal did for the 75th. The problem with DC and Nightwing besides anniversaries is the same one we've discussed in this thread multiple times, so I'll leave that out.

If you're a Nightwing fan, turn your attention elsewhere because there are creators out there that love Dick Grayson and the DCU, and they want to tell good stories. Titans, Young Justice, Lost Carnival, etc.

----------


## Lazurus33

NIGHTWING #65
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by BRUNO REDONDO
variant cover by POP MHAN
While the Nightwings do their best to contain the situation in Blüdhaven, Ric faces off against Talon! But the battle is one not just of brawn, as Ric’s psyche is taken to its limits when he learns about his family history for the first time since his memory was wiped. Will Ric Grayson at last become the Gray Son of Gotham he was destined to be, or will he choose the life he’s been trying to establish for himself in Blüdhaven?
ON SALE 10.16.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | RATED T
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

NIGHTWING ANNUAL #2
written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE
cover by DAN JURGENS and NORM RAPMUND
The bullet that shattered Nightwing’s life was the shot fired by the KGBeast in the now-infamous BATMAN #55—and it changed the course of Dick “Ric” Grayson’s career. Gone were the memories and alliances that once defined him, replaced by a near blank-slate persona.
Now go inside those early moments of Ric’s new life, his strained reunion with a stranger named Bruce Wayne and an entire life turned upside down. But amid the chaos lies opportunity…not for Ric, but for an old foe who’s been waiting a lifetime for a moment like this. Echoes of the past return in a story that tees up Nightwing’s own Year of the Villain!
ON SALE 10.30.19
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | RATED T

MTU2MzgyNTczNA==.jpgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNjEvMDA1L29yaWdpbmFsL05XXzY1X2NvbG9yLmpwZz8x.jpgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNjEvMDA2L29yaWdpbmFsL05XX0FOTi5DT1YuNjAwQ0xS.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

ACETATE COVER  ADVANCE SOLICITATION ON SALE IN NOVEMBER
NIGHTWING #66
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
acetate cover by JONBOY MEYERS
card stock variant cover by WARREN LOUW
William Cobb has taken the Nightwings down one by one, leaving Ric on his own in a Blüdhaven that is literally aflame. Cobb offers Ric a chance to save his city by at last fulfilling his legacy as the Gray Son and becoming the new Talon and leading the Court of Owls into a new age.
ON SALE 11.20.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
card stock variant cover $4.99
FC | RATED T
This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
Please note the acetate covers will be available on first printings only.


MTU2MzgyMTI0Nw==.jpgMTU2MzgyMTIyMw==.jpgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNjAvODg4L29yaWdpbmFsL05UV19DdjY2X1BSRVZJRVdT.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

What a dream come true if all the nightswings get killed and dick is talon for a while I could handle that

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Please become a Talon. Can't believe I'm saying this but..... that would be a step in the right direction

----------


## L.H.

> I understand that Batman is a Juggernut. One of the most valuable properties in the world but DC's pin everything on Batman Strategy is lazy and blocks growth.
> 
> I'm used to DC favouring Batman over others. I'm used to them using other characters as devices to drive his plot but this is too much.
> Like @Ascended said. They are killing Dick Grayson without killing him . This is worse than if they killed him off. They are killing interest in this character. I'm at a point where I'm tapped out. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to be angry.
> 
> Batman isolated from everyone he cares about. Dick getting shot. Loss of memory. Bane breaking the Bat. Batman proposing and then getting dumped. 
> 
> These are hardly original or fresh ideas. These have been done before and executed without throwing icons under the bus.
> 
> King's Masterpiece of regurgitated idea's isn't worth one good character.  DC is making a very stupid mistake in allowing creators and others with a vested interest tarnish these long serving characters like Dick and Wally.


You're telling me. Dick, Donna and Wally are mine top three character, I like Titans franchise more than everything else. When Rebirth starter, my pulling list had 9 comics, now it's only 4. They're loosing readers and money, and just don't care.


About the solicits: making Dick a Talon will be interesting, even if this still looks like "making all the Titans bad guys". At least, the book can have a direction.

----------


## Zaresh

Ha ha ha ha ha.

They're burning the city. I TOLD YOU! Or at least, I talked about it in a thread a few months back. Wow, I cannot believe someone else's thought it was a good idea. Or an idea good enough.

----------


## Arsenal

The Nightwings. Bea. Blud. The cab. Anything & everything associated with Ric is contaminated & must be burned. 

Ric being a cabbie during the insanity of Bane’s takeover of Gotham could’ve been kinda fun though.

----------


## Frontier

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope this Court of Owls/Talon storyline is the impetus for finally resolving all of this.

----------


## Badou

I still say it doesn't matter. It won't get any better even if this shit is resolved because there is no direction or anyone at DC that has any confidence in the character. It will just be the same shit as always. More uninspired stories. 

The only thing I want to see is Talon kill all the worthless supporting characters just to erase them from the DCU. The Nightwings, Bea, cab driver, and everyone else.

----------


## byrd156

> I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope this Court of Owls/Talon storyline is the impetus for finally resolving all of this.


The Court idea is a legitimately decent one but I'm still not sold that it will be executed well. I will be picking this up I think.

----------


## OWL45

> Please become a Talon. Can't believe I'm saying this but..... that would be a step in the right direction


I agree. This is both interesting and the path for the Bat Family to step in. Its also a plot point that DC was afraid to really explore. Under the circumstances it is the perfect time.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> What we do know about the Year of the Villain is that there's supposed to be a "Takeover" in November with special covers, so by then we should either have William Cobb hijacking the book, or Ric as a Talon. Who knows what they have planned after that.


Lol, I was technically right on both count because of the covers.

I've long posited Dick's memories return when he gets hit with enough Prometheum, maybe we'd see that if he really does become a Talon. Talon, Nightwing, whatever we get it won't fix the larger problem but I'd gladly take Talon over Ric lol.

----------


## Ascended

> The Court idea is a legitimately decent one but I'm still not sold that it will be executed well. I will be picking this up I think.


Oh, the execution is probably going to be awful but I agree the idea itself isn't the worst thing ever and it's something we haven't really seen explored. 

I dunno if I'll actually pick up the issue but I'm considering it, which is more than I've done in a year.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But why?   Why drag this  rubbish  out? What  is  the  point  of  Ric story arc? It's not interesting, it's not interesting or controversial, it add's nothing of value to any character, DC, any IP, any creator. What is the point?
> 
> Even if they are planning on a big universe fix, what is the point of carrying on this shit? They can fix it without dragging Dick Grayson through the muck.


lol **** if I know. 

All I figured out from DC the past few years is that they don't care about their property beyond their top-selling books and writers, that's how they can just make "lesser" book and writers to follow their main. They care enough to promote at an event or new number 1 at the beginning, but after that, they just leave it alone, back to focus on their star characters and writers.

As for dragging things out, that just what both DC and Marvel do, before an anniversary or commemoration, they make the character suffer or go through controversial version for about a year before they can make a great revival. They did this to Spider-Man with Superior, Batman with Eternal, Superman with Doomed, Dick with Grayson (it just turns out better than expected but they didn't expect anything), Batman again with Bane, and by now they're just gonna do the same with Dick, Wally, and possibly Roy.

Relying on controversy to boost sale, probably. Get people to talk about it. That's the only logic I can give them.

----------


## Restingvoice

> ACETATE COVER  ADVANCE SOLICITATION ON SALE IN NOVEMBER
> NIGHTWING #66
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by RONAN CLIQUET
> acetate cover by JONBOY MEYERS
> card stock variant cover by WARREN LOUW
> William Cobb has taken the Nightwings down one by one, leaving Ric on his own in a Blüdhaven that is literally aflame. Cobb offers Ric a chance to save his city by at last fulfilling his legacy as the Gray Son and becoming the new Talon and leading the Court of Owls into a new age.
> ON SALE 11.20.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> ...


Oh hey. #66 The Number of The Beast-lite

----------


## Ascended

> Like @Ascended said. They are killing Dick Grayson without killing him . This is worse than if they killed him off. *They are killing interest in this character.* I'm at a point where I'm tapped out. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to be angry.


And that's far more dangerous than just killing him. Hell, killing a character usually increases interest in them. This? This could hamper Dick's sales for a while.

However, I'm not terribly worried about it doing real, lasting damage. We've got quality stuff in larger media, kid-focused OGN's, and Dick's a DC mainstay; the original and most iconic Robin, a Titans staple, (usually) one of DC's most consistent sellers with a crazy high sales floor.....Didio might kick him down, but Dick Grayson won't stay down forever. Whatever Didio tries to accomplish, Dick will outlast him, and eventually recover from the damage. 

Hell, the lack of DC stuff from SDCC and Didio's comments about not understanding the industry anymore.....that day might be a little closer than anyone suspects, who knows?

----------


## Godlike13

It’d be Ric as a Talon, not Dick. And under Jurgans I have no doubt it’d be as formulaic and as boring as every thing else he has done so far on the title. But I still think this will be The Nightwings and their sidekick Ric the Cabbie’s culminating victory.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It’d be Ric as a Talon, not Dick. And under Jurgans I have no doubt it’d be as formulaic and as boring as every thing else he has done so far on the title. But I still think this will be The Nightwings and their sidekick Ric the Cabbie’s culminating victory.


Nah. Cobb will pile them up on a giant skewer.

----------


## Restingvoice

There's a ROBIN: THE BRONZE AGE OMNIBUS HC so that will be my pick

----------


## Rac7d*

> Itd be Ric as a Talon, not Dick. And under Jurgans I have no doubt itd be as formulaic and as boring as every thing else he has done so far on the title. But I still think this will be The Nightwings and their sidekick Ric the Cabbies culminating victory.


If you get rid of the nightwings, kill bea and his memories return ric will be no more
so it depends on how it all proceeds

anyway it looks like we have some fuel, hopefully next issue they turn on the ignition and we can get rolling
ric was always a temporary project like Grayson to keep  what is a competent second batman out of Gotham during a major event

----------


## Vordan

Didio is complaining that people would rather read old stuff yet forces this Ric bullshit on us despite it being clear everyone hates it. Amazing. I’m not a traditional Didio hater, there’s been quite a lot of stuff the man has done that I’ve liked, but this has got to have been the *dumbest* **** ever. I can’t believe this was approved and that they STILL haven’t undone it yet.

----------


## BloodOps

god october and november too

all I want for Christmas this year is Dick

----------


## Godlike13

The only silver lining is that when Ric inevitably lasts for more issues then Grayson, no one can blame fans anymore for Grayson ending.

----------


## dropkickjake

I don't want to live in a world where Ric Grayson has an Annual.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, that’s a good one.

----------


## OWL45

> The only silver lining is that when Ric inevitably lasts for more issues then Grayson, no one can blame fans anymore for Grayson ending.


If he becomes the Gray Son of Gotham then he should be accepting he is Richard Grayson. Which is a way to get rid of Ric if they execute it properly. That’s if...crossing my fingers.

----------


## Pohzee

I'm pretty damn hype for that Bronze Age Robin Omnibus. Some of my favorite stuff in there.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But why?   Why drag this  rubbish  out? What  is  the  point  of  Ric story arc? It's not interesting, it's not interesting or controversial, it add's nothing of value to any character, DC, any IP, any creator. What is the point?
> 
> Even if they are planning on a big universe fix, what is the point of carrying on this shit? They can fix it without dragging Dick Grayson through the muck.


Wait wait wait I remember now why DC/Marvel like to spend a year dragging character before a revival

Knightfall and Death of Superman

Two of the most popular and reprinted character breaking or killing story of all time. Both of them spend about a year before the main character came back, and along those time they introduce copycat heroes. 

They're still doing it because it worked that time so why not now 

Of course true to form they forget what made those stories unique in the first place or that people hated Azbat at that time or didn't care enough to make them good

----------


## Avi

Can someone tell me where this is from?

----------


## Godlike13

JLA Obsidian Age

----------


## Avi

> JLA Obsidian Age


Thank you!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rac7d*

How do you think we are gonna have to wait until the titans trailer if the show starts in September?

----------


## Drako

> How do you think we are gonna have to wait until the titans trailer if the show starts in September?


they will probably release the trailer with the finale of Swamp Thing next week.

----------


## CTTT

Seriously this is shameful.  What's wrong with having a grown up sidekick?  Didio doesn't understand that it doesn't make Batman look old, but makes him look cooler.  People can look at Nightwing and go "Wow, he's cool, who taught him?"  Batman which would make people want to look and follow Batman.  But he's just thinking about the bottom line, more Nightwing sales than Batman.  I hope that Dick Grayson will be back soon, and called Dick and not Ric.

----------


## K. Jones

I'm more excited about the dumb execution of "Ric" being a backdoor into Nightwing spending some time as a Talon than I really ought to be.

----------


## WonderNight

> Seriously this is shameful.  What's wrong with having a grown up sidekick?  Didio doesn't understand that it doesn't make Batman look old, but makes him look cooler.  People can look at Nightwing and go "Wow, he's cool, who taught him?"  Batman which would make people want to look and follow Batman.  But he's just thinking about the bottom line, more Nightwing sales than Batman.  I hope that Dick Grayson will be back soon, and called Dick and not Ric.


grown up SIDEKICK!

You just answered nightwing's biggest problem and main reason he gets treated like crap.

----------


## CTTT

ok, what I meant was starting as a sidekick and growing into his own hero later on.

----------


## WonderNight

> ok, what I meant was starting as a sidekick and growing into his own hero later on.


No you were right the first time, nightwing is still a sidekick. At least in DC and WB eyes which is the core of most of nightwing's problem. DC see's nightwing as nothing more than a sidekick for batman and not his own hero.

----------


## Restingvoice

> No you were right the first time, nightwing is still a sidekick. At least in DC and WB eyes which is the core of most of nightwing's problem. DC see's nightwing as nothing more than a sidekick for batman and not his own hero.


Supporting cast, to be exact. He's not always depicted as a sidekick in the sense that he follows his order, and in stories themselves he's most often depicted as an adult who visits or hangs out with Batman... but he is considered part of Batman's supporting cast in any media he's in because he originated and is a part of Batman family... and because he's considered a supporting cast of the Batman universe, he will be affected by Batman no matter how far he goes.

Even the fabulously emancipated Harley Quinn is never gonna shake off Joker.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Supporting cast, to be exact. He's not always depicted as a sidekick in the sense that he follows his order, and in stories themselves he's most often depicted as an adult who visits or hangs out with Batman... but he is considered part of Batman's supporting cast in any media he's in because he originated and is a part of Batman family... and because he's considered a supporting cast of the Batman universe, he will be affected by Batman no matter how far he goes.
> 
> Even the fabulously emancipated Harley Quinn is never gonna shake off Joker.


Who isn’t a side kick when bats is around aside from the trinity

----------


## Godlike13

Batman, Dick is a sidekick to his own persona right now lol.

----------


## nhienphan2808

In the new52 they made Hal act like a Robin. If Batman's own generation can't cross him, i dont see the second genenation being treated better any time soon, especially the one they stated "we don't know what to do about him" on multiple occasions ever since the 70s.

----------


## CTTT

well, I'll see this through to the end, there's got to be light at the end of the tunnel sometime.  Besides I've got a whole boatload of past Batman Robin Nightwing stuff to keep me busy till then.  Dick, along with the other Batfamily members, is a great character.

----------


## Lazurus33

Ric (Dick) mention in Batgirl #37

13.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

So Bea hangs out with Jason Bard, LoL of course she does.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I'm more excited about the dumb execution of "Ric" being a backdoor into Nightwing spending some time as a Talon than I really ought to be.


Yeah, I actually might tune in for this.

----------


## Godlike13

To be a negative Nancy, I wouldn’t get your hopes up. It’s still Jurgans who claims to be oh so interested in a Dick who doesn’t remember his life with Batman, yet seemingly incapable of actually doing anything with it.
 I don’t think Ric as a Talon will last very long, and what’s more it’s Dick as a Talon that would be intriguing. Not Ric. Lamenting about his worthless life as a sidekick to a bunch nobody wannabe and his boring puppet of a girlfriend.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

We have no idea what Jurgens is thinking, and interviews hardly reflect what a writer is really thinking when they write their stories. He very well could have been pretending to be interested in "Ric" because he always planned to go the Talon route with him as part of the Year of the Villain. We're really in the dark here, since this could be a fakeout, or the next phase of the amnesia story. We know the driving force behind the book is editorial and not the writers, so it's not like he would've had to ability to magically return Dick's memories whenever he wanted. It's also possible someone at DC is pushing for the Talon direction specifically because they're afraid of how low the current direction is selling and the poor word-of-mouth around the book.

Again, we're in the dark. It's easy to speculate about what's going on behind the scenes, but we just don't know. Just wait it out, we'll see what they have planned for December in two months.

----------


## Godlike13

Who cares what he is thinking, we can read what he is doing. Which is a whole lot of nothing. What they have been doing with this book has been rather transparent. Regurgitating lazy ideas, with lazy good old boy creators that are experienced in the art of treading water. It’s been the same shit month after month now, so I’m not sure why anyone would think December is going to be any different. December is traditionally a tread water month even. We want them to make Dick a Talon and for someone to finally get off their lazy ass maybe do something, but just look at Jurgans last issue. That’s not the kind of stuff he’s here to do.

----------


## Pohzee

I wouldn’t even be excited if Jurgens brought Dick back. I want an exciting new writer, not a 90’s vet.

----------


## OWL45

> Who cares what he is thinking, we can read what he is doing. Which is a whole lot of nothing. What they have been doing with this book has been rather transparent. Regurgitating lazy ideas, with lazy good old boy creators that are experienced in the art of treading water. Its been the same shit month after month now, so Im not sure why anyone would think December is going to be any different. December is traditionally a tread water month even. We want them to make Dick a Talon and for someone to finally get off their lazy ass maybe do something, but just look at Jurgans last issue. Thats not the kind of stuff hes here to do.


Last issue was the set up for the upcoming story line involving the COO and Talon. I think he should be judged on his run going forward.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya last issue was the promoted offer, the big tie-in jumping on point, and he did nothing. He wasted 20 pages accomplishing the god damn cover. He is writing the worst selling Nightwing ever, this is his tie-in introduction issue, and he does nothing. He lays down a insultingly lazy and effortless turd of an issue that a child could write. Just like he has done nothing with Ric, giving us his ridiculously boring Burnback arc, despite claiming how interesting he thinks Ric could be. Jurgans has been no better than Lobdell, not sure why anyone should think that is all of a sudden going to change.

----------


## OWL45

This being the worst selling Nightwing ever is not his fault it’s DC’s. They have been dropping writers for various reasons prior to him taking over. It seems giving the solicits over the next few months he has a direction which is an interesting one. We have to give him a chance to execute it.

----------


## Badou

Jurgens is producing the same crap that Lobdell and Nicieza did and saying the same things they did. He doesn't really deserve any benefit of the doubt. Him saying things like why he thinks the concept is interesting but is not being truthful at all about it. There is no value to anything he's said in any of his interviews because it is all PR speak. 

And I'm sorry but the Owls aren't interesting. Talon isn't interesting. Bludhaven isn't interesting. The Nightwings aren't interesting. Bea isn't interesting. Ric isn't interesting. It is just a tie in to a line wide event and Talon is the only villain they could use because Dick's history is so irrelevant that there is nothing else they could think of. All the other big villains are off doing things for the Year of the Villain story and King's Bane story. I think if you are expecting some big story that is going to matter or have any care put into it you are setting yourself up for disappointment. The book is just treading waster until they relaunch it next year probably, but who knows when that will be. I thought that this would all be over in time for King's BIG Batman Summer event, but that didn't happen. 

Everyone is talking about this issue but an Annual comes out in October that is going to show Ric finally meeting Bruce after he first got shot and no one here cares about that meeting. Shows how disinterested people are in this story as a whole. The last time they two met was when Dick got his brains blown out in Batman #55 and they wasted a full year with this awful story to have the two meet again.

----------


## Godlike13

> This being the worst selling Nightwing ever is not his fault it’s DC’s. They have been dropping writers for various reasons prior to him taking over. It seems giving the solicits over the next few months he has a direction which is an interesting one. We have to give him a chance to execute it.


The last issue was the start of him executing it, and he also already had an arc on the book. When your writing the worst selling Nightwing, you’d think one would get off their ass and do something to change that. But no, instead he continued to just blatantly tread water and lay down a lazy no effort issue. He left it to pretty much just the idea already presented to readers on the cover to carry things. What does that tell you.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

This is why people purchase more old stories than new because there is a clear hierarchy that imposes Crossover after Crossover that the effects are felt in stories but mostly irrelevant to the main characters story. Dick had more freedom and story diversity when he was Robin but now everything is about how he compares to Batman or how Batman’s emotions are effected. In Star Spangled Comics Dick was Blinded, Deafened, Stranded on a Island, and more without it being caused by Batman and he bounced back and remained a detective while working with a disability. I honestly wish they would let him go on adventures while just living in Bludhaven where he is not competing with Batman but do things that feature him as a pioneer liking discovering Island like he did twice in the Golden Age when he was in high school directing movies, DJing, Training kids, working in the community. The Batman competition needs to go but I think in Comics it will never go away. Young Justice if it continues to feature Nightwing in season 4 is established in the general audience as someone who can show competence and Titans when they debut Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> I wouldnt even be excited if Jurgens brought Dick back. I want an exciting new writer, not a 90s vet.


Same. I loved Jurgens' work back in the day but he hasn't seemed to evolve or change as a creator since the 90's. However, I'd be perfectly fine with him writing getting Dick back on solid ground. A 90's vet writing Nightwing is better than anything we've seen with Ric. 

I *want* a fresh new writer on Nightwing but I'll *accept* an older writer on Nightwing if it means we get past this Ric sh*t.

----------


## Godlike13

90s vets is all weve seen with Ric. _Jurgens_ has been on the title for months now and he hasnt improved things at all.

----------


## dropkickjake

> To be a negative Nancy, I wouldnt get your hopes up. Its still Jurgans who claims to be oh so interested in a Dick who doesnt remember his life with Batman, yet seemingly incapable of actually doing anything with it.
>  I dont think Ric as a Talon will last very long, and whats more its Dick as a Talon that would be intriguing. Not Ric. Lamenting about his worthless life as a sidekick to a bunch nobody wannabe and his boring puppet of a girlfriend.


Lol. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bursting at the seems for it. But I went from faithfully buying floppies 2x a month, to catching up on trades through comixology, to not even bothering to pirate this stuff. Dick with no memory of Robin, but actually a working memory of the circus, as a Talon is at least an interesting concept. I can't say that about "I hate batman and drive a cab and wear grease on my face" Ric. So what I'm saying is... I'll pirate it, and if it doesn't suck I'll give them my money again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lol. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bursting at the seems for it. But I went from faithfully buying floppies 2x a month, to catching up on trades through comixology, to not even bothering to pirate this stuff. Dick with no memory of Robin, but actually a working memory of the circus, as a Talon is at least an interesting concept. I can't say that about "I hate batman and drive a cab and wear grease on my face" Ric. So what I'm saying is... I'll pirate it, and if it doesn't suck I'll give them my money again.


Exactly I gonna hope for the best but keep my expectations low

----------


## Rac7d*

B37207CE-EA37-4377-8036-C74EC08BD185.jpg

Dcuniverse

----------


## Pohzee

> 90’s vets is all we’ve seen with Ric. Abnett has been on the title for months now and he hasn’t improved things at all.


Abnett, Jurgens, same difference.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Exactly my point.

----------


## Godlike13

Ha ya, big oops there. My bad. Though ya, not much of a difference LoL.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Who isn’t a side kick when bats is around aside from the trinity


Not even the Trinity sometimes. They made New 52 Superman younger than Batman, changed the order of title from Superman/Batman to Batman/Superman, and in American Alien made his first costume from Batman's cape and inspired to be the light of Batman's dark from Dick Grayson.

Like Barry said in Rebirth Titans Annual #1 "Batman's here. The pecking order always changes."

----------


## nhienphan2808

Lighter characters act like Robins to Batman in new52 and after, and he is in his 30s. Bullshit like this don’t give the 2nd generation a chance. And Didio said “lol Dick makes Bruce old.” Lol. It’s just character hate. And everything leads to Batman now.

----------


## Badou

https://soundcloud.com/user-44237172...dell-interview

According to that podcast (starts staking about it around the 1 hour 20 min mark) we have Lobdell to blame for Ric Grayson lasting so long. Some in editorial thought the Ric thing wasn't going to last. Like maybe 3 issues and he would be fixed, but Lobdell is the one that campaigned for it to last longer according to what he said here. He apparently also hated The Grayson Agent of Spyral story.

----------


## Arsenal

His reasoning is that if you’re gonna do something like blow Dick’s brain out (or paralyze Babs) it’s something that should be explored instead of being something that just gets waved away 3 issues later.

----------


## Badou

> His reasoning is that if you’re gonna do something like blow Dick’s brain out (or paralyze Babs) it’s something that should be explored instead of being something that just gets waved away 3 issues later.


His entire argument is undercut when he just sticks the character in Bludhaven, has boring side characters, gives him an irrelevant job, and does nothing interesting with the concept. Like Bludhaven is the last place Ric Grayson would have wanted to go to if he is trying to get away from Nightwing and Dick's old life. It made no sense. Then he again stumbles over his argument when he says he disliked the Spyral series which was a very unique and different take on the character created by a dramatic change in the character's life they explored after getting his ID exposed, and is what Lobdell is saying he wanted to see more of instead of the same stories over and over.

----------


## Arsenal

> His entire argument is undercut when he just sticks the character in Bludhaven, has boring side characters, gives him an irrelevant job, and does nothing interesting with the concept. Like Bludhaven is the last place Ric Grayson would have wanted to go to if he is trying to get away from Nightwing and Dick's old life. It made no sense. Then he again stumbles over his argument when he says he disliked the Spyral series which was a very unique and different take on the character created by a dramatic change in the character's life they explored after getting his ID exposed, and is what Lobdell is saying he wanted to see more of instead of the same stories over and over.


I’m not saying what he thought and what he achieved were one and the same. Just saying “why” he pushed for it to be longer for the people who didn’t want to listen to the interview.

----------


## Lazurus33

What an ego.  He believes just because he did not like Grayson/Spryal that he is right, but because millions of fans don't like Ric Grayson they are wrong.

Maybe King and Seeley feel different about Grayson than he does.

----------


## Badou

> I’m not saying what he thought and what he achieved were one and the same. Just saying “why” he pushed for it to be longer for the people who didn’t want to listen to the interview.


I was hoping that the interviewers would push back on him a bit more, since it seemed like one of them didn't enjoy the Ric story, but I get not wanting to upset him when he was willing to go onto their podcast. So I can't blame them.

----------


## Pohzee

Lobdell proving once again without a doubt that he's just as terrible a writer as a he is towards women.

----------


## Arsenal

> What an ego.  He believes just because he did not like Grayson/Spryal that he is right, but because millions of fans don't like Ric Grayson they are wrong.
> 
> Maybe King and Seeley feel different about Grayson than he does.


I'm not sure how you got that from the interview when his point during that portion of the interview was "if you don't like a story, that's okay". Did you not listen to it?

----------


## Lazurus33

> I'm not sure how you got that from the interview when his point during that portion of the interview was "if you don't like a story, that's okay". Did you not listen to it?


That's the point that I got, and that is the opinion that I have.

----------


## Arsenal

> That's the point that I got, and that is the opinion that I have.


I'm not trying to argue with you, I just genuinely don't understand how you got from point A to Point B with the materials provided.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm exhausted

----------


## Rac7d*

> His reasoning is that if youre gonna do something like blow Dicks brain out (or paralyze Babs) its something that should be explored instead of being something that just gets waved away 3 issues later.


I would agree but seeing how the rest of the bat family saving Barbra does not mention it.....

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, and people defend Lobdell. Bottom of the barrel.

----------


## Ascended

> His reasoning is that if you’re gonna do something like blow Dick’s brain out (or paralyze Babs) it’s something that should be explored instead of being something that just gets waved away 3 issues later.


I'd actually agree, this *is* something worth exploring. The problem has been all in the plan, or lack thereof. How many writers have bounced in and out of this book in the last year? How many issues has DC spent just spinning their wheels covering the same ground? How far has the story actually gone? Seriously, someone tell me because I'm not reading the book. 

If you want to explore the fallout of a hero getting seriously injured, cool. But I don't see them exploring anything here.

----------


## Arsenal

> I'd actually agree, this *is* something worth exploring. The problem has been all in the plan, or lack thereof. How many writers have bounced in and out of this book in the last year? How many issues has DC spent just spinning their wheels covering the same ground? How far has the story actually gone? Seriously, someone tell me because I'm not reading the book. 
> 
> If you want to explore the fallout of a hero getting seriously injured, cool. But I don't see them exploring anything here.


Oh I agree, they've totally dropped the ball on the Ric story and any potential it had was wasted.

----------


## Godlike13

> I'd actually agree, this *is* something worth exploring. The problem has been all in the plan, or lack thereof. How many writers have bounced in and out of this book in the last year? How many issues has DC spent just spinning their wheels covering the same ground? How far has the story actually gone? Seriously, someone tell me because I'm not reading the book. 
> 
> If you want to explore the fallout of a hero getting seriously injured, cool. But I don't see them exploring anything here.


Exactly. He never actually explored jack crap. He just had him bitch while he gave him magic muscle memory powers so he can still do the same shit. This is just limited lazy writers talking and hiding behind shoulds and coulds, but didn't actually do.

----------


## byrd156

> https://soundcloud.com/user-44237172...dell-interview
> 
> According to that podcast (starts staking about it around the 1 hour 20 min mark) we have Lobdell to blame for Ric Grayson lasting so long. Some in editorial thought the Ric thing wasn't going to last. Like maybe 3 issues and he would be fixed, but Lobdell is the one that campaigned for it to last longer according to what he said here. He apparently also hated The Grayson Agent of Spyral story.


I can't stand Lobdell's creative choices.

----------


## Rakiduam

> https://soundcloud.com/user-44237172...dell-interview
> 
> According to that podcast (starts staking about it around the 1 hour 20 min mark) we have Lobdell to blame for Ric Grayson lasting so long. Some in editorial thought the Ric thing wasn't going to last. Like maybe 3 issues and he would be fixed, but Lobdell is the one that campaigned for it to last longer according to what he said here. He apparently also hated The Grayson Agent of Spyral story.


So he campaigned for it, only wrote like 4 issues and disregarded it completely 7 issues letter. And edditorial went with it even when "his best book work" doesn't sell that well?

....Poor Wally

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> Lol. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bursting at the seems for it. But I went from faithfully buying floppies 2x a month, to catching up on trades through comixology, to not even bothering to pirate this stuff. Dick with no memory of Robin, but actually a working memory of the circus, as a Talon is at least an interesting concept. I can't say that about "I hate batman and drive a cab and wear grease on my face" Ric. So what I'm saying is... I'll pirate it, and if it doesn't suck I'll give them my money again.


Ouch. Not that I disagree, but in this day and age when the pirating stops it's time to toss that story out with the non recyclables.

----------


## Godlike13

> So he campaigned for it, only wrote like 4 issues and disregarded it completely 7 issues letter. And edditorial went with it even when "his best book work" doesn't sell that well?
> 
> ....Poor Wally



Right, LoL. I just don’t get it.

----------


## Avi

So editoriql could have stopped it? Wow. How does someone like Lobdell have that much power? (That's a rethorical question, please don't answer that.)

I just hope Titans gets it together this season, so it can make me forget about the Ric stuff for a bit.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm not interested in dwelling on what already happened since it's too annoying. I'll move on to the future. 

So can we safely conclude that once Year of The Villain is over there is no reason to keep Dick as Ric anymore?

Lobdell insisted Dick stay Ric because he wanted to explore it. He's out.
Didio said he has plans for Dick which I assume meant to be Year of The Villain Talon.
I imagine Snyder already started planning Year of The Villain at least half a year ago and Didio got the idea.
Editorial said they didn't imagine Ric to last this long. 3 issues top.
King said at the beginning he's ready to use Zatanna to cure Dick at any time.
Dan Jurgens is only brought in because Lobdell's replacement turns out to be a pedophile or something and probably to buy time until Year of The Villain.

So after Year of The Villain, there's no reason to keep him Ric.

----------


## Badou

When did Didio say he had plans for Dick? I only remember him talking about Dick last year when he was talking about Percy's run and how Percy was setting up a DCU wide story for his Nightwing book with the Dark Web where Dick would be put in forefront of the DCU in it, but all that got scrapped I thought when King wanted to shoot Dick in the head and Percy wanted off the book. I seriously doubt any of this was Year of the Villain related back then.

----------


## Arsenal

I vaguely remember somebody at Sdcc saying they have plans for Wally but nothing about Dick.

----------


## OBrianTallent

What's even more curious is that if editorial did only want it to last a few issues originally...WHY did they not tell the next writer to wrap it up.  It could have been wrapped in just a few issues and we could have gotten on with our Nightwing, instead here I am not buying the book waiting for this ridiculous thing to end like a bad dream and obviously I am not alone.

----------


## OWL45

> I'm not interested in dwelling on what already happened since it's too annoying. I'll move on to the future. 
> 
> So can we safely conclude that once Year of The Villain is over there is no reason to keep Dick as Ric anymore?
> 
> Lobdell insisted Dick stay Ric because he wanted to explore it. He's out.
> Didio said he has plans for Dick which I assume meant to be Year of The Villain Talon.
> I imagine Snyder already started planning Year of The Villain at least half a year ago and Didio got the idea.
> Editorial said they didn't imagine Ric to last this long. 3 issues top.
> King said at the beginning he's ready to use Zatanna to cure Dick at any time.
> ...


If he becomes a Talon he will not be Ric anymore. He wont be Nightwing but he would essentially be accepting that he is Richard Grayson not some hobo. That November acetate cover looks good. I hope they have the guts to do it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If he becomes a Talon he will not be Ric anymore. He won’t be Nightwing but he would essentially be accepting that he is Richard Grayson not some hobo. That November acetate cover looks good. I hope they have the guts to do it.


It would probably take Babs Damian and Bruce to y’all him out of whatever brainwashing the owls do to him

----------


## Godlike13

> If he becomes a Talon he will not be Ric anymore. He won’t be Nightwing but he would essentially be accepting that he is Richard Grayson not some hobo. That November acetate cover looks good. I hope they have the guts to do it.


I think thats presumptuous. You really think Jurgens is gonna drop all things Ric that he’s been doing nothing but towing the line with. There has been no indication that this wouldn’t be Ric forced to be a Talon. If he even truly becomes a Talon.

----------


## astro@work

> What's even more curious is that if editorial did only want it to last a few issues originally...WHY did they not tell the next writer to wrap it up.  It could have been wrapped in just a few issues and we could have gotten on with our Nightwing, *instead here I am not buying the book waiting for this ridiculous thing to end like a bad dream and obviously I am not alone*.


100% same.

My LCS owner kept ordering it for me by accident, so DC probably thought I was still picking it up (I wasn't, I had been putting it back on the shelf).
Luckily I just changed states and shops, so DC will get the correct message.

----------


## Restingvoice

> When did Didio say he had plans for Dick? I only remember him talking about Dick last year when he was talking about Percy's run and how Percy was setting up a DCU wide story for his Nightwing book with the Dark Web where Dick would be put in forefront of the DCU in it, but all that got scrapped I thought when King wanted to shoot Dick in the head and Percy wanted off the book. I seriously doubt any of this was Year of the Villain related back then.


I don't remember the exact time but it was sometime after Ric happened. I don't remember how long after. Between late last year to February. Basically long enough for me to think it's gonna happen a year after Ric began (because of the whole habit from DC to drag characters in different interpretation for a year like Superheavy) 

It was posted here in this forum and people's general reaction at that time was "yeah right"

Back then I thought it's the plan was for Dick 80th anniversary but then I realized it was still Batman's year. 

Then I thought it's gonna be him returning to the Batfam to help takeout Bane but that didn't happen in Batman #71 and it was still a while until #75, and now, #85

A day before the solicit came out I thought it's going to be either Talon or Leviathan. I was waiting for the October solicit because that's the exact month Ric began last year. If nothing were to happen, I was gonna dismiss it as Didio lip service.

The solicit's out, it's Talon. Underwhelming, since Talon is something I thought should happen the moment he's amnesia, but I didn't expect something epic anyway since the 80th anniversary is still next year. 

So working backward, I think it _was_ for Year of The Villain because I can imagine Snyder setting up his story that far back. He's kinda been worldbuilding since Metal.




> I vaguely remember somebody at Sdcc saying they have plans for Wally but nothing about Dick.


That's why I posted on Wally's thread "you literally said the exact same thing for Dick but it hasn't happened yet"




> What's even more curious is that if editorial did only want it to last a few issues originally...WHY did they not tell the next writer to wrap it up.  It could have been wrapped in just a few issues and we could have gotten on with our Nightwing, instead here I am not buying the book waiting for this ridiculous thing to end like a bad dream and obviously I am not alone.


That's why I think by that point they already planning to make Dick Talon for Year of The Villain. So they just hold it off until then.

----------


## Godlike13

I recall Didio talking about plans for Nightwing and what it’s going to represent with HiC. Though he still thought Percy was writing the book LoL. Anyway it was all bullshit. They don’t put utility guys like Lobdell and Jurgens, names that struggle to crack the top 100, on books they have real plans for. These are their make things up as they go, fill in the art, guys. Though for some reason they let them campaign and actually influence what they do with the character. What a joke. And Dido says he doesn’t get the market anymore, gee you think. DC’s old men club need to go. The guys at the bottom of the charts should not have that kind of influence.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I recall Didio talking about plans for Nightwing and what it’s represents befor HiC. Though he still thought Percy was writing the book LoL. Anyway it was all bullshit. They don’t put utility guys like Lobdell and Jurgens, names that struggle to crack the top 100, on books they have plans for. These are their make things up as they go, fill in the art, guys. Though for some reason they let them campaign and actually influence what they do with character. What a joke. A Dido says he doesn’t get the market anymore, gee you think. DC’s old men club need to go.


If that's it then I just remember it wrong and confuse it with something else. Mainly how DC/Marvel like to break/kill/replace heroes only to bring them back exactly a year later, so I thought, oh it's this kinda thing again.

----------


## Godlike13

This is a last minute throw crap on the wall with bad, out of touch, creators kind of thing. There is no plan. Just lazy editors passing things to lazy creators.

----------


## byrd156

> This is a last minute throw crap on the wall with bad, out of touch, creators kind of thing. There is no plan. Just lazy editors passing things to lazy creators.


It really feels like the writers wait till the night before and rush whatever script that can put together and hand it in.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It really feels like the writers wait till the night before and rush whatever script that can put together and hand it in.


Well the year of Villians thing was always coming
I guess talon is technically a nightwing  rogue

----------


## OWL45

> Well the year of Villians thing was always coming
> I guess talon is technically a nightwing  rogue


Ya, Kyle Higgins stated on twitter this is essentially the story he wanted to do but never got a chance. He loved the new designs of Dick as a Talon and is happy they are picking the story thread back up.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ya, Kyle Higgins stated on twitter this is essentially the story he wanted to do but never got a chance. He loved the new designs of Dick as a Talon and is happy they are picking the story thread back up.


I actually like the one he had better, I wish Kyle could come write his run was good they just kept interrupting his storylines. Funny how aria get the most distance from the bat family, anyway his approval fills me with hope

----------


## Rac7d*

Can someone Help me find this jacket

----------


## dropkickjake

> Ya, Kyle Higgins stated on twitter this is essentially the story he wanted to do but never got a chance. He loved the new designs of Dick as a Talon and is happy they are picking the story thread back up.


I'd take Higgins writing this story for sure.

----------


## Avi

Nightwing leak from a 17 second teaser on youtube:

Screenshot_20190727-133708_YouTube.jpg

Screenshot_20190727-133712_YouTube.jpg

Screenshot_20190727-133714_YouTube.jpg

----------


## Drako

> Nightwing leak from a 17 second teaser on youtube:
> 
> Screenshot_20190727-133708_YouTube.jpg
> 
> Screenshot_20190727-133712_YouTube.jpg
> 
> Screenshot_20190727-133714_YouTube.jpg


It's from the fan film they made 5 years ago.

https://youtu.be/EhHoUGlTFEo?t=27

----------


## Avi

> It's from the fan film they made 5 years ago.
> 
> https://youtu.be/EhHoUGlTFEo?t=27


Damn. They got me. But it's a nice reminder, that the series was really good for a fan production.

----------


## Frontier

If you guys think Ric is bad, you better not check out Robin on _DC Super Hero Girls_...

----------


## Restingvoice

The Robin in DC Superhero Girls is Damian... unless they're doing a flashback story that I haven't watched

----------


## yohyoi

> If you guys think Ric is bad, you better not check out Robin on _DC Super Hero Girls_...


That's Damian. He was way worse in Batman & Son and Injustice.

----------


## yohyoi

> Can someone Help me find this jacket


Can't find it. I'll buy one if anyone does.

----------


## Godlike13

> If you guys think Ric is bad, you better not check out Robin on _DC Super Hero Girls_...


Ya, that was something.

----------


## Frontier

> The Robin in DC Superhero Girls is Damian... unless they're doing a flashback story that I haven't watched


You're thinking of the old version. 



> That's Damian. He was way worse in Batman & Son and Injustice.


It's Dick. Lauren Faust tweeted something specifying the distinction of "Dick" in a script between his name, and...well  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Godlike13



----------


## Badou

Yeah he looks awful, but it was to be expected given the original concept art they had for Robin back when the series was just a DC short. Their design for him was always bad. They just kept that.

----------


## Badou

Also I don't think Lauren Faust is a fan of Dick or Robin's character too, or just not interested in him.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

The dc sub reddit has lost its mind haha it’s just spamming dick Grayson nightwing content

----------


## dietrich

> You're thinking of the old version. 
> 
> It's Dick. Lauren Faust tweeted something specifying the distinction of "Dick" in a script between his name, and...well .


Yeah the old one that had pants that Babs was baby sitting was Damian. 

So Dick and Damian are both Robin in this universe? That's odd. DC needs to get their shit together. Fans of TT who watch DCSHG have been asking for Dick to make the team complete but not like this.

----------


## dietrich

> The dc sub reddit has lost its mind haha it’s just spamming dick Grayson nightwing content


Showing my boy some love because someone has to.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> The dc sub reddit has lost its mind haha it’s just spamming dick Grayson nightwing content


The upvote and downvote pictures are priceless.

----------


## Frontier

> *So Dick and Damian are both Robin in this universe?* That's odd. DC needs to get their shit together. Fans of TT who watch DCSHG have been asking for Dick to make the team complete but not like this.


They're from separate takes on DCSHG.

----------


## Pohzee

I'm not gonna get my green speedos in a twist for a cartoon for little girls poking fun at guy superheroes.

----------


## Drako

Batman: The Last Knight on Earth #2 has a cool cliffhanger that y'all might like.

----------


## Lazurus33

> batman: The last knight on earth #2 has a cool cliffhanger that y'all might like.


spoilers

53.jpg54.jpg

----------


## OWL45

> spoilers
> 
> 53.jpg54.jpg


That’s badass. I skipped it and now I have to pick this up.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Well I guess I'll be reading the Last Knight #3 lol.




> If you guys think Ric is bad, you better not check out Robin on _DC Super Hero Girls_...


You know I tried googling around for this but I found nothing. Is it really that bad or is it just bland/uninspired?

----------


## Restingvoice

> spoilers
> 
> 53.jpg54.jpg


Oh. Did he turn evil because Bruce was dead, again?

----------


## Godlike13

Hmm, i could see that being why the lazy unimaginative bums on Nightwing decided to go the Talon route too.

----------


## Frontier

> spoilers
> 
> Attachment 85308Attachment 85309


Kinda not surprised. Dick was the only Batfamily character Snyder really cared about.



> You know I tried googling around for this but I found nothing. Is it really that bad or is it just bland/uninspired?


Bland/uninspired would be an improvement.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Kinda not surprised. Dick was the only Batfamily character Snyder really cared about.
> 
> Bland/uninspired would be an improvement.


Yikes. Now I'm stuck between being really curious and just... glad I'm not in the know as of now lol.

Another thing, about the Last Knight and YotV stuff: I'm thinking there's a big chance Snyder's plans involve an Owl storyline for Dick in YotV just to lean into what he's doing in the Last Knight, just like how his BWL stuff is tying heavily into not just JL-related stuff, but potentially the Last Knight as well. Could be DC didn't want him going back to being Nightwing yet but knew there had to be a change and it's something Snyder suggested. Or maybe he noticed how terrible the current Nightwing storyline was received and suggested this on his own. Snyder might fall into the camp that views Nightwing as a subservient IP to Batman based on his output, but he definitely does value the character and his relationship with Bruce at least.

----------


## Godlike13

I really think he inspired it. Either indirectly with Last Knight, or directly working with others for YotV. No way it’s coincidence though. Which makes me feel a little better about the upcoming storyline, cause maybe it not just a tease to further support Ric, but it also has me torn. Cause on one hand it’s something, and anything would be better than the nothingness that is Ric. While also in itself Dick becoming a Talon is not a bad idea, even if it has already come up a bit here and there. On the other though it just frustrates me to see them wasting it with a tapped out creator like Jurgens and probably another grab bag a random filler artists. Makes his offer issue just piss me off even more now.

----------


## BloodOps

So Diana assumed Dick fell in battle after Bruce died? Her reaction was of someone who knew he died, similar to her reaction of Bruce asking if Clark is still alive. 

Guess it is possible that the Court of the Owls revived him.


These two issues have been so much fun though, can't wait for #3.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/thesteveorlando/...44383407058945



> When I was 14, I created a NIGHTMASTER pitch for @DCComics
>  with Tom Lyle. Now, twenty years later, Tom and I are FINALLY getting to collaborate thanks to @katiekubert
>  on someone a BIT more high profile (though I still love Jim Rook). What those #comics shelves for more!




Steve Orlando possibly doing something with Nightwing down the line?

----------


## Godlike13

Hmm...
...

----------


## Badou

Sounds like it is something set outside of the main continuity.

----------


## Pohzee

I've been kinda underwhelmed by everything Orlando has done since Midnighter. Especially his Bat stuff.

And good god, we always say Dick is supposed be a pretty boy but given the mediocre artists his book usually draws, he's equally likely to end up looking like a bulldog caught in the rain.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Sounds like it is something set outside of the main continuity.


In the replies Orlando states that this isn't a confirmation of anything happening in continuity soon, so yeah, whatever this is its no guarantee that Dick will be a proper Dick anytime soon.

----------


## Ascended

Orlando is really hit or miss with me, but if he's writing proper Nightwing I'll give it a shot. Whether its in continuity or not, I'll just be happy to see Nightwing back in proper form again.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Titans season 2 first look from comic con leaked....and dick’s hair a little bit longer. So far they’ve  showed him interact with Bruce and he shows up as Robin throughout the first look

----------


## Dzetoun

The trailer for the second season of Titans has appeared in the middle of the night without fanfare. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wegotth...uce-wayne/amp/

----------


## Godlike13

https://streamable.com/sxal0

I’m excited

----------


## byrd156

> I’m excited


This feels like a better place to start off than what they did for season 1. If this dropped as the first ever trailer, the hype would've been through the roof.

----------


## dropkickjake

So weird seeing Jorah as Batman. Feels like a super old Bruce. But this season looks better than the first from this limited view.

----------


## Frontier

> So weird seeing Jorah as Batman. Feels like a super old Bruce. But this season looks better than the first from this limited view.


It's weird for me because I can still hear his accent as Bruce there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Godlike13

> So weird seeing Jorah as Batman. Feels like a super old Bruce. But this season looks better than the first from this limited view.


Agreed. I was like is that Alfred at first, lol

----------


## Jackalope89

> So weird seeing Jorah as Batman. Feels like a super old Bruce. But this season looks better than the first from this limited view.


I guess he finally got over his Khaleesi.

----------


## byrd156

> It's weird for me because I can still hear his accent as Bruce there .


It is strange but I'm looking forward to it.

----------


## Frontier

> Agreed. I was like is that Alfred at first, lol


Especially with that accent  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

Waiting on the nightwing reveal

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Mentioned this before when we got the casting, but Glen as Bruce is great (beyond his acting ability) because it allows Dick and the Titans room to grow. This is what you get when your characters age. 

This is one of the rare universes where Bruce won't have to die to make room for everyone else, he can just retire after a few seasons, and because it's a universe that revolves around Dick and the Titans, Dick won't have to become Batman to take over. He can do it as Nightwing because Nightwing is more important than Batman this time.

And might as well share some of my other feelings about Titans: this season is looking much better than the previous one from a production standpoint. The blue filter is seemingly gone, we're getting a bigger focus on costumed heroics and teamwork, we're seeing Dick shepherd other heroes, and the new costumes and designs are amazing so far. The Nightwing suit is going to be great, I think.

----------


## yohyoi

Hell yeah! Titans is back. I also see he has the Nightwing hair. Such a great tv show.

----------


## byrd156

> Mentioned this before when we got the casting, but Glen as Bruce is great (beyond his acting ability) because it allows Dick and the Titans room to grow. This is what you get when your characters age. 
> 
> This is one of the rare universes where Bruce won't have to die to make room for everyone else, he can just retire after a few seasons, and because it's a universe that revolves around Dick and the Titans, Dick won't have to become Batman to take over. He can do it as Nightwing because Nightwing is more important than Batman this time.
> 
> And might as well share some of my other feelings about Titans: this season is looking much better than the previous one from a production standpoint. The blue filter is seemingly gone, we're getting a bigger focus on costumed heroics and teamwork, we're seeing Dick shepherd other heroes, and the new costumes and designs are amazing so far. The Nightwing suit is going to be great, I think.


I'm cautiously optimistic for the new season. This trailer feels like what season 1 should've been.

----------


## Tzigone

Does anyone know if Dick ever interacted with Jim Gordon during the early 2000s, when he and Barbara were dating?

Actually, did Dick have any substantive interaction with Jim between 1970 and Battle for the Cowl?  I'm really sort of more interested in interaction where Dick wasn't Batman.  But him as Dick Grayson, Robin, or Nightwing would all be interesting.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I'm cautiously optimistic for the new season. This trailer feels like what season 1 should've been.


It's definitely seems much lighter and more focused on heroics so I think it'll be more in line with what most Dick Grayson fans are looking for.




> Does anyone know if Dick ever interacted with Jim Gordon during the early 2000s, when he and Barbara were dating?
> 
> Actually, did Dick have any substantive interaction with Jim between 1970 and Battle for the Cowl?  I'm really sort of more interested in interaction where Dick wasn't Batman.  But him as Dick Grayson, Robin, or Nightwing would all be interesting.


I'm curious about this too, because I really can't recall anything. Not even sure if they interacted during Batman: Prodigal.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Does anyone know if Dick ever interacted with Jim Gordon during the early 2000s, when he and Barbara were dating?
> 
> Actually, did Dick have any substantive interaction with Jim between 1970 and Battle for the Cowl?  I'm really sort of more interested in interaction where Dick wasn't Batman.  But him as Dick Grayson, Robin, or Nightwing would all be interesting.


Um... there was a time in the 70s where Dick got angry at Jim when he "kids these days" some arson teens and he got offended...
There's the classic Nightwing Year One where he tried to convince Jim that he's Robin and finally succeeding with "Holy mistaken identity, Batman!"
That's all I remember.

----------


## Tzigone

> There's the classic Nightwing Year One where he tried to convince Jim that he's Robin and finally succeeding with "Holy mistaken identity, Batman!"


"Classic" isn't the first thing that comes to mind with that story.  But thanks for the info.

----------


## Frontier

I'm trying to think of moments in _Robin: Year One_ but all I remember is Jim being very uncomfortable with Robin.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm trying to think of moments in _Robin: Year One_ but all I remember is Jim being very uncomfortable with Robin.


I remember Jim warning Batman if something happens to the kid... and then Two-Face happened to the kid... so when Batman coolly told Jim what happened while not looking at him, Jim calmly dropped his smoke and walk towards Batman.

The preview cuts there and I was like... he's gonna deck him

----------


## byrd156

> It's definitely seems much lighter and more focused on heroics so I think it'll be more in line with what most Dick Grayson fans are looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious about this too, because I really can't recall anything. Not even sure if they interacted during Batman: Prodigal.


As a Titans fan there wasn't anything I was looking for in season 1.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

I can't believe we are gonna have our live night wing in 10 weeks, 
we didnt get a glimps of him in the new trailer so he must be  showstopper

----------


## Ascended

Can't wait to see photos and hear reviews. I'm not subbing DCU and won't until YJ is finished.....but live action Nightwing is most definitely something I'm down with, even if I have little interest in the show itself.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing just made its Wrestling debut. 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1160701422478024711

----------


## Pohzee

I thought Titans S1 was solid. My only real complaint is that it felt like only half a season.

----------


## Ascended

> I thought Titans S1 was solid. My only real complaint is that it felt like only half a season.


I hear good things, and when I eventually sub to DCU for YJ I'll give the show a shot. It's just not something I have a lot of interest in. I wouldn't get the sub just for Titans, yknow? But I would get the sub for Nightwing's debut even if YJ wasn't in the mix.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I thought Titans S1 was solid. My only real complaint is that it felt like only half a season.


It wasn't perfect, but I love it and considering I have several family members who are fans (like seriously, it's incredible to have cousins who are now big fans of Dick Grayson for Dick Grayson and not just vaguely liking "Robin" from the 2003 Teen Titans series), I definitely think it's worth watching... but what you just said, I have to agree. They kinda shot themselves in the foot by robbing us of any closure for the season and delaying the original finale so it could be repurposed into the new season premiere. Definitely glad the show starts up super soon in September instead of making us wait until October or later.

----------


## byrd156

> I thought Titans S1 was solid. My only real complaint is that it felt like only half a season.


The writing and editing were dreadful. The barn/farm training scene was easily the worst example of the editing issues. Go rewatch that scene. The terrible color correction and blue filter they always used. Dick's cop partner that literally went nowhere, the whole Trigon twist that ruins any semblance of "story", (if she was in on it why did she give Raven away in the first place?) exploding the lab presumably murdering all those people while getting rid of the Robin suit which undercuts the whole idea of Dick getting away of the darkness that he feels Bruce passed onto him, etc. 

The most telling moment to me was when Dick and Raven were at the motel by themselves very earlier on. There is some decent dialogue between the two while Raven watches GoT. The scene she's watching is on very prominently and it's when Arya is traveling with the Hound, basically Titans (the show) is saying hey remember this well written duo that everyone loves with the gruff older guy who needs to learn to be decent again and the young girl who is a badass that needs to guidance and protection, well we are doing that too so just think of those well written characters and pretend these characters are like those characters. It's fine to reference or homage something with a similar situation or character dynamic but it was so in your face about it. That's how the whole first season feels, very in your face. The story, the editing, the violence. The show only felt like it would slow down and actually do things with the characters in the guest star episodes. Doom Patrol we actually get some stuff with Beast Boy. Jason Todd we get to see how Dick reacts to another Robin. Donna we get to see another side of Dick's character. Hawk & Dove was a full on origin for them which had nothing to do with the main plot like the others but it was engaging and entertaining.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Nightwing just made its Wrestling debut. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1160701422478024711


This is incredible. Nightwing is trending on Twitter thanks to this lmao.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Tbh if Dick even comes back....is there really anything left for him to do? He has his 2 love interests that no one will budge from. He was already Batman. He's had good solo runs with Higgins, King/Seeley this decade. What more can be said about this character? I'm not trying to insult the character, I grew up with Robin and as an adult, Dick became my fav char.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Tbh if Dick even comes back....is there really anything left for him to do? He has his 2 love interests that no one will budge from. He was already Batman. He's had good solo runs with Higgins, King/Seeley this decade. What more can be said about this character? I'm not trying to insult the character, I grew up with Robin and as an adult, Dick became my fav char.


Good question. He needs a writer that can introduce new ideas or reframe old ideas in a new way but still respecting the character history. Not randomly make him amnesia and call it good just because it's different. I'm not a writer so the only thing I can suggest is what I suggested before, bring back Haly's Circus because in my limited mind at least I want to have a more colorful supporting cast and an anchor for his identity.

----------


## byrd156

> Tbh if Dick even comes back....is there really anything left for him to do? He has his 2 love interests that no one will budge from. He was already Batman. He's had good solo runs with Higgins, King/Seeley this decade. What more can be said about this character? I'm not trying to insult the character, I grew up with Robin and as an adult, Dick became my fav char.


Of course there's still everything to do.

Like always it just depends on who DC puts on the book and if the ideas are good. Maybe after Year of the Villain is over (or during, IDK) there will be a shift or new ideas that someone will want to do. I really just think DC is just killing time waiting for Doomsday Clock and whatever after effects come from that (reboot, relaunch, re-whatever) to set characters like Dick back up with a more traditional status quo.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s almost if they’re in the business of creation.

----------


## Badou

> Tbh if Dick even comes back....is there really anything left for him to do? He has his 2 love interests that no one will budge from. He was already Batman. He's had good solo runs with Higgins, King/Seeley this decade. What more can be said about this character? I'm not trying to insult the character, I grew up with Robin and as an adult, Dick became my fav char.


It will just be more forgettable Bludhaven stories once Dick comes back. They are just going to have him go by Dick again, put him back in his blue Nightwing suit, and then just keep him in Bludhaven doing basically what he is doing now. DC has shown a complete lack of interest or care in giving Dick a direction and I don't expect that to change post Year of the Villain or Doomsday Clock.

----------


## Godlike13

But that is because that is what they want to do, not because that is all they can do. And please no one say “well it’s all the fans want, look at Grayson”. I think it’s very clear with Ric that fans don’t have jack influence when it comes to this character and what they do.

It’s a current DC problem that that is their vision with the character, and that they listen to bottom of the charts, ideas go nowhere, old guys. Who don’t actually plan things out or have any real investment on the character, and whats more even have rather questionable reputations. That’s just bad leadership. And while they might be able to get away with that on Nightwing, as he is a under the radar character, that is still the result of a bigger personnel problem and not a character problem.

Dick should actually give them more flexibility to experiment. He’s not Batman so he doesn’t carry the same expectations, but at the same time in today’s market its not easy for a book to make it into the 60s. And his current series has been mediocre to flat out bad longer then it has been good now. With 90% of their other characters they would cream for that. They can try new creators, try different things, and not have sales never take off or instantly fall though the floor. But instead what they are choosing to do is rest of their laurels and use that affordability to feed in-house, bottom of the charts, guys that they just seem to like to have around. Which is a reflection on the leadership behind the character, and isn’t really on the character or his readers.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tbh if Dick even comes back....is there really anything left for him to do? He has his 2 love interests that no one will budge from. He was already Batman. He's had good solo runs with Higgins, King/Seeley this decade. What more can be said about this character? I'm not trying to insult the character, I grew up with Robin and as an adult, Dick became my fav char.


It sounds like your just bored of him
I don’t hear people asking what Wonder Woman will do next?

He’s gonna put back in his mask and stop crime

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

There definitely has to be a change at the top of DC for things to really get better. As things are now, the only reason we might not get a Ric-type situation again in a couple years is that they'll actually remember how poorly it sold and know better, but common sense is not too common in DC offices. "Dick Grayson is back" is not worth celebrating when it finally happens, it should be the bare minimum lmao.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> It sounds like your just bored of him
> I don’t hear people asking what Wonder Woman will do next?
> 
> He’s gonna put back in his mask and stop crime


Nope just seems like he's gone through everything. Going back to bludhaven for example and blockbuster. Percy's run with NW was almost a Green Arrow 2.0 with Nightwing constantly throwing a 'I hate tech' line every issue.

If something interesting comes up great. But I don't have expectations for that.

----------


## Godlike13

Percy’s Green Arrow didn’t like technology?

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Percy’s Green Arrow didn’t like technology?


Percy's GA had him traveling across the United States with a political/social issue. He was getting NW started with that too, with the truck to drive across the country and a mission that too much technology is bad.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Percy's GA had him traveling across the United States with a political/social issue. He was getting NW started with that too, with the truck to drive across the country and a mission that too much technology is bad.


What I don't like about Percy is his plot and his voice of the characters can be really unsubtle. In Nightwing he makes Dick sounds like an old man who hates technology, in DC You Green Arrow he made an antagonist who provides the police force with a profiler robot that looks like a super evil black scary octopus during the time where awareness of white cop shooting black people was at its height, and in Rebirth Green Arrow he has Emiko randomly say thugs shouldn't objectify her when nobody's objectifying her. 

I still like his Dark Web idea though. Just need to work on subtlety.

----------


## dietrich

> Nope just seems like he's gone through everything. Going back to bludhaven for example and blockbuster. Percy's run with NW was almost a Green Arrow 2.0 with Nightwing constantly throwing a 'I hate tech' line every issue.
> 
> If something interesting comes up great. But I don't have expectations for that.


He could go back to Blud whilst also doing the globe trotting adventure. He can have new villains, new side characters. A bunch of his supporting villains and associates have barely been explored. Tiger, Raptor, his foes when he was Batman, the run offs, Shawn, the Skull Girls.

I was excited for Percy's vertigo arc. Lets have Dick do more detective type arcs where we get to see him showcase his other skills. There's plenty to do with Nightwing just need a writer keen to take him for a wild ride.

----------


## byrd156

> Percy's GA had him traveling across the United States with a political/social issue. He was getting NW started with that too, with the truck to drive across the country and a mission that too much technology is bad.


Percy tens to write a lot of the same things or at least gets in a flow of writing about specific topics or themes. Not a bad thing unless you switch to a character where that current flow of certain topic/theme doesn't really fit with another. Like his GA to Nightwing transition.

----------


## WonderNight

> He could go back to Blud whilst also doing the globe trotting adventure. He can have new villains, new side characters. A bunch of his supporting villains and associates have barely been explored. Tiger, Raptor, his foes when he was Batman, the run offs, Shawn, the Skull Girls.
> 
> I was excited for Percy's vertigo arc. Lets have Dick do more detective type arcs where we get to see him showcase his other skills. There's plenty to do with Nightwing just need a writer keen to take him for a wild ride.


the problem is that none of those characters are in or from bludhevan. Everything that's important to dick is outside of bludhevan and writers will have to keep coming up with reasons for these characters to show up in bludhevan. 

Bludhevan doesn't work. Just send dick on adventures around the dcu where can show up anywhere and everywhere and truly be the heart of the dcu like people say he should be.

----------


## TheRay

Im really enjoying Nightwing on Young Justice.

----------


## byrd156

> the problem is that none of those characters are in or from bludhevan. Everything that's important to dick is outside of bludhevan and writers will have to keep coming up with reasons for these characters to show up in bludhevan. 
> 
> Bludhevan doesn't work. Just send dick on adventures around the dcu where can show up anywhere and everywhere and truly be the heart of the dcu like people say he should be.


Here we go again.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Bludhaven seemed to work fine enough for over a hundred issues. Bludhaven isn't the problem, hell it's a victim just as much as all the other screwed over heroes like Dick. It died because Dick was supposed to die because of Dan Didio. Destroying Bludhaven and everything Dick built there and shifting away for over a decade made the city fade away. Dick isn't the problem, just like his name isn't the problem, or the Robin costume, or whatever superficial BS people want to say this week. 

DC is the issue. We have seen time and time again that the current heads at DC can't and won't do anything about the damage they are causing to Dick and a countless list of other characters. The mismanagement is going to continue regardless of people blaming Bludhaven or whatever you want about Dick. The HEADS DON'T CARE. Nightwing is still selling, quality doesn't matter. If Dick sells well, okay. If he doesn't, okay. He isn't a priority but he seems to have a very big and very vocal fanbase so just throw some half assed creative team on the book and it'll sort itself out. Things will never be like they were before the reboot for Dick or anyone for that matter. No matter how many stories or old elements become canon again. Something needs to shift soon otherwise stories like Ric will become the norm.

The biggest issue with the mismanagement is that we don't really know this Dick Grayson too well. We have barely seen him during his Robin days, barely know anything about his relationships with the new version of the Titans or even some members of the bat-family and definitely with the larger DCU, how he transitioned into Nightwing, etc. One of the reasons why I think the Grayson series is as beloved as it is, is because we actually got to learn about him as a character. Most of his series since the reboot are exploring everything around him like his old friends from Haly, the Court, Sonia Zucco, Chicago and the anti super stuff. It wasn't really about Dick, just events and characters he was tied up in. Seeley's Nightwing stuff needs to be revisited by the Nightwing creative every single time before they start working on the next issue. Dick is why we read the book. If the character stuff is good, I'll read an issue where he watches paint dry. What's important to Dick is saving people and being a decent person, as long as you have that you have a good Nightwing book in my opinion. A story like Ric has merit, it's basically Knightfall but what if it was terrible in literally every way. A fall from grace and rising again is a great story, that's why people like Knightfall and DKR. The reason those stories will be remembered for all of time and Ric will be a black mark that only hardcore nerds will remember just to scoff at is that those stories were approached as stories. There was cohesion between books and editors, things are foreshadowed and follow a logic path. Ric is just a mad scramble to fill air time, there's a slot to fill so let's fill it with a popular idea and whichever writer is waiting in the bullpen so we can justify the paycheck we are giving them and kill two Nightwings I mean birds with one stone.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is everywhere these days, but the comics still treat him like he isn't one of DC's most popular characters. He is with the likes of Flash, Harley and Superman. DiDio and co. don't really care. They don't care about money or fame Dick brings. They just want to keep on sabotaging Dick Grayson as a character. Dick Grayson is comic's greatest underdog. Greater than Batman, Spider-Man, etc. because of his growth and not even DC can bring him down. Dick Grayson rules!

----------


## yohyoi

Hey DC can you hear all of these? Ofcourse, you don't. Because you never listened to your fans. But unlike you we care and we will never give up.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nope just seems like he's gone through everything. Going back to bludhaven for example and blockbuster. Percy's run with NW was almost a Green Arrow 2.0 with Nightwing constantly throwing a 'I hate tech' line every issue.
> 
> If something interesting comes up great. But I don't have expectations for that.


Sounds like your just bored of the genre

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick is everywhere these days, but the comics still treat him like he isn't one of DC's most popular characters. He is with the likes of Flash, Harley and Superman. DiDio and co. don't really care. They don't care about money or fame Dick brings. They just want to keep on sabotaging Dick Grayson as a character. Dick Grayson is comic's greatest underdog. Greater than Batman, Spider-Man, etc. because of his growth and not even DC can bring him down. Dick Grayson rules!


They don’t care until it can’t be ignored, that’s why titans has to be a success

----------


## Godlike13

A successful Titans won't even matter, look at the Titans comic that came out today. They'll just use it as an excuse to push Tim. "Cause all the Robins are the same, so might at well push the one we like.". Until the old men with their agendas and antiquated ideas go, nothing will get better. Just more of the same. Put in the least work as possible, and then use the character to feed their out of touch, no draw, old buddies with their out of touch ideas and lazy executions. And then when readership on the character enviably drys up they'll turn around blame the character for the lack of readers.

----------


## Rac7d*

> A successful Titans won't even matter, look at the Titans comic that came out today. They'll just use it as an excuse to push Tim. "Cause all the Robins are the same, so might at well push the one we like.". Until the old men with their agendas and antiquated ideas go, nothing will get better. Just more of the same. Put in the least work as possible, and then use the character to feed their out of touch, no draw, old buddies with their out of touch ideas and lazy executions. And then when readership on the character enviably drys up they'll turn around blame the character for the lack of readers.


We are a few short years before tim drake dissapears forever as duke becomes more popular

----------


## Blue22

First Duke would have to stop being Bruce's most boring protege. I'm still holding out hope for that but...I'm not seeing that happen anytime soon lol

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Tim is getting a new hero name (and a weird ugly brown costume) from Bendis so he's never going anywhere.

----------


## Blue22

*shrug* I actually don't mind the color and really like what I've seen of the costume so far. I've always liked the idea of each Robin having their own distinctive color. Dick has blue, Jason has red, Damian has green, Steph has purple, and now Tim has...yellow?...brown?....Either way, I'm cool with it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> First Duke would have to stop being Bruce's most boring protege. I'm still holding out hope for that but...I'm not seeing that happen anytime soon lol


It doesn’t matter how boring he is, he is a protege of color, 

Tim original purpose becomes less important with every continuity change, his special skill are more informed to the reader then shown and cause the other robins to be filled to make him more effective

His treatment in YJ  dc’s new 52 animated and and I’m expecting him to be absent in Titans

----------


## Godlike13

And neverless they gave him the creation of Teen Titans, and after that didn’t work they have now put probably one of their highest payed creators on him. Tim isn’t going anywhere. They won’t allow it. They’ll just make him Robin yet again if they have to. 
Though my point wasn’t about Tim, Tim was just an example. If it’s not Tim, it’d be someone else. My point was it doesn’t matter if Dick succeeds elsewhere. The comic side will look to somehow pass that onto others before they invest anymore in Dick. They don’t want to do more with him, even if people wanted it. They intentionally sabotage him as it is even. They like where he is, they even like Ric. If they didn’t Ric would have ended long ago. They like that they can give a book that won’t immediately bomb to these old buddy creators who’s names, ideas, and actual work don’t move jack crap anymore. They are not looking to put in anymore work on the character then they absolutely have to.

----------


## nhienphan2808

The Robin in Giants Titans is 99% Dick down to his damn hair style but his name is Tim. he even has a Nightwing like mask . Looks like DC told Jurgen to edit the name at the last minute.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The Robin in Giants Titans is 99% Dick down to his damn hair style but his name is Tim. he even has a Nightwing like mask . Looks like DC told Jurgen to edit the name at the last minute.


I know. Threw me off when he was suddenly called Tim. I'm like "what the hell, that's Dick!"

----------


## nhienphan2808

He acts and thinks like Dick. Everything about him is Dick. Tim is more “ I gotta find a way” than “Batman taught me to never give up”.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> They are not looking to put in anymore work on the character then they absolutely have to.


The only work they do now is sabotage him. Even out-of-contnuity stuff like Giants. Another insult to Dick. I have no hopes in solo Nightwing anymore but NTt is the only team that’s wholely Dicks. They are the best selling most iconic flagship book , that’s why they got a giant. But Didio can’t put Dicks name on it.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> The Robin in Giants Titans is 99% Dick down to his damn hair style but his name is Tim. he even has a Nightwing like mask . Looks like DC told Jurgen to edit the name at the last minute.


Nah I remember when Jurgen's first started talking about this on twitter he always meant it for Robin to be Tim. 

I will say though that for this roster, it makes more sense for them to use Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Nah I remember when Jurgen's first started talking about this on twitter he always meant it for Robin to be Tim. 
> 
> I will say though that for this roster, it makes more sense for them to use Dick.


Did he want to say that or Dc made him say that lol. If anyone even read NTT you know that’s Dick. Apparently now bc they are so “alike” , the lines are blurred.

----------


## Godlike13

I assume it’s just a generic and general characterization.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I assume it’s just a generic and general characterization.


Yeah. Of Dick.

Seriously, erase "Tim" in that comic and put "Dick" instead, no one would bat an eye, and in fact, it would fit better.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah. Of Dick.
> 
> Seriously, erase "Tim" in that comic and put "Dick" instead, no one would bat an eye, and in fact, it would fit better.


Tim drake should never lead a titans team with beast boy raven or starfire they all outrank him

----------


## Pohzee

Tim and Dick both fulfill similar roles as Robin.

We can let Tim have this one, it's not big and he needs it more than Dick does. Jurgens is already writing Dick once a month and it ain't stellar.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Tim and Dick both fulfill similar roles as Robin.
> 
> We can let Tim have this one, it's not big and he needs it more than Dick does. Jurgens is already writing Dick once a month and it ain't stellar.


Jurgens is writing Ric, which is very different lol. Tim is at least one of many focal characters in one of DC's most pushed books right now. Regardless of how you feel about Bendis, the fact is Tim is better off. And anyways, the problem with these characters is pretending they're interchangeable. These characters should be and have been very distinct, and watering them down over time is exactly why this stuff is allowed to happen.

Speaking of Bendis tho, we're getting the Nightwing issue of the Batman Giant published as part of the direct market in November so there's some Dick content out there at least.

----------


## byrd156

Dick_Grayson Bruce_Wayne NO316.jpg

Was rereading a personal favorite (Batman No. 316) and Bruce talked about how he plans on Dick taking over Wayne Enterprises someday.

----------


## Frontier

> Dick_Grayson Bruce_Wayne NO316.jpg
> 
> Was rereading a personal favorite (Batman No. 316) and Bruce talked about how he plans on Dick taking over Wayne Enterprises someday.


I think there was something in Morrison's run where it was willed to Dick but he didn't want to deal with it so he just had Damian handle it (and then Tim took over).

I just can't imagine modern Dick running a company.

----------


## Rac7d*

Did Tims parents die

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Did Tims parents die


In the New 52, no. But with continuity coming back, I'm confident that they are dead. Bendis and King follow the Pre New 52 continuity over established continuity Post Flashpoint.

----------


## Konja7

> In the New 52, no. But with continuity coming back, I'm confident that they are dead. Bendis and King follow the Pre New 52 continuity over established continuity Post Flashpoint.


In fact, Bendis doesn't follow Pre-Flashpoint continuity. He just creates the continuity he wants for his story. 

Cassie is still grandaughter of Zeus, while Conner seems to be a clone of Clark and Lex. 

Not to mention that Bendis has totally reboot the Legion. 

So, Tim's parents being alive or not will depend on Bendis whishes.

----------


## Ansa

> In the New 52, no. But with continuity coming back, I'm confident that they are dead. Bendis and King follow the Pre New 52 continuity over established continuity Post Flashpoint.


Bendis didn't even remember that Manhunter is Green Arrows attorney and that Oliver and Damian already worked together in Metal, he just acts like it's their first meeting for his Event Leviathan. That guy doesn't even do basic research for the characters he's writing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> In the New 52, no. But with continuity coming back, I'm confident that they are dead. Bendis and King follow the Pre New 52 continuity over established continuity Post Flashpoint.


So Tim’s parents were dead right, it was never clear to me how he could become a ward of Bruce and have right to anything Wayne if not so

----------


## Rac7d*

If titans Season 2 has 13 episodes Then Dick's Idenity as nightwing should be by episode 8-10 so about november

So Its my wish that The Dick/Ric is resolved in the november issue and we can moove out

----------


## Jackalope89

Huh. Did a double-take on Babs in that pic. The Bat-symbol on her top almost looked like skin.

Anyways, yeah. Bendis ignored GA Rebirth and DK Metal like he did with Superman Rebirth.

----------


## Frontier

> Huh. Did a double-take on Babs in that pic. The Bat-symbol on her top almost looked like skin.


Skintight spandex for the win  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## byrd156

> I think there was something in Morrison's run where it was willed to Dick but he didn't want to deal with it so he just had Damian handle it (and then Tim took over).
> 
> I just can't imagine modern Dick running a company.


I like the idea of Dick having to take over Wayne Enterprises for awhile but totally avoiding doing the job of CEO. Kinda like how Bruce is in the Nolan Trilogy where he's only interested in the R&D department and avoiding the actual day to day of the office. Plus I kinda want to see a superhero in a workplace setting, there isn't anything like that out right now.

I think it would be an enjoyable aspect to explore, it has the same kinda fish out of water/Dick would never do this by choice that being a spy has.

----------


## Restingvoice

I think in Tony Daniel's run when he's Batman, Dick has to go meetings, and he's not into it. Mainly because he just dealt with... Scarecrow, I think? So he's not exactly healthy. 
In Tomasi's run, they have to go to a gala, but he's teaching Damian that it's necessary.
In Streets of Gotham, he's definitely not into it because he has to appear friendly with Tommy Elliot.
I forgot which book, but he can act as The Playboy's Rich Kid when meeting with Sonia Zucco. Snyder's, I think.

----------


## Ascended

> I like the idea of Dick having to take over Wayne Enterprises for awhile but totally avoiding doing the job of CEO. Kinda like how Bruce is in the Nolan Trilogy where he's only interested in the R&D department and avoiding the actual day to day of the office. Plus I kinda want to see a superhero in a workplace setting, there isn't anything like that out right now.
> 
> I think it would be an enjoyable aspect to explore, it has the same kinda fish out of water/Dick would never do this by choice that being a spy has.


I do enjoy seeing Dick put into situations he's not comfortable with, that go against his nature. Being a CEO definitely fits. And I have no issue with him having to step up at Wayne Enterprises.....for the short term. 

Long term I want him to have his own world, and be less reliant on Bruce's mythology. So if you were to make Dick the CEO of a company for more than a short-term storyline I'd rather see it be something like Dick running Haly's circus/casino or something.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I would love to see Dick at the head of Wayne Enterprises, that kind of stuff is the most fun you could really have with civilian Dick imo. Not enough people lean into how James Bondian Batman can be (although it seems like Hill is somewhat leaning into it his Outsiders book?), but one thing that's always been true about Dick as Batman and in Grayson is how much he embodies that style of Batman (and Robin). Anything that pushes us back towards that is great imo.





> Huh. Did a double-take on Babs in that pic. The Bat-symbol on her top almost looked like skin.
> 
> Anyways, yeah. Bendis ignored GA Rebirth and DK Metal like he did with Superman Rebirth.


Her newest suit is kinda lame, it was completely ruined for me when someone brought up the fact that her bat symbol looks more like a gold-yellow bra on top of her suit than just a symbol.

----------


## Frontier

> Her newest suit is kinda lame, it was completely ruined for me when someone brought up the fact that her bat symbol looks more like a gold-yellow bra on top of her suit than just a symbol.


...I don't know what to think about that now  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## byrd156

> ...I don't know what to think about that now .


That huge symbol is the only thing I really like about the new suit.

Is it just me or does it seem like it's always drawn especially skin tight? Like more so than usual for heroines.

----------


## Frontier

> That huge symbol is the only thing I really like about the new suit.
> 
> Is it just me or does it seem like it's always drawn especially skin tight? Like more so than usual for heroines.


I think it depends on the artist. In her solo it's about as skintight as most female hero costumes but artists like Fabok or Mann draw it extremely skintight. 

Loathe as I am to admit it, I can understand the perspective behind the Burnside costume eschewing spandex.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

To this day I still have no idea what was wrong with reviving her Second N52 suit(Yellow Cape not Purple). And just simply remove some complicated lines.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Dan Mora's rendition of the Burnside suit is easily my favourite Batgirl design for Babs, he drew the Rebirth Batgirl #14 variant, whcih was one of the Nightwing crossover issues for. Was and still is one of my favourite Rebirth covers tbh. I basically love all of Dan Mora's superhero work tho (especially Power Rangers stuff), and his Nightwing is no exception lol.

About the costume, I think he ended up changing the colours to fit her actual design at the time for the final cover, but I really liked the initial cover.
Batgirl-14.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> To this day I still have no idea what was wrong with reviving her Second N52 suit(Yellow Cape not Purple). And just simply remove some complicated lines.


Or just basically bring back the classic Batgirl suit.

----------


## Lazurus33

https://insidepulse.com/2019/08/19/d...guide-preview/

----------


## 9th.

> Or just basically bring back the classic Batgirl suit.


Anything is better than he current one

----------


## Ascended

> Dan Mora's rendition of the Burnside suit is easily my favourite Batgirl design for Babs, he drew the Rebirth Batgirl #14 variant, whcih was one of the Nightwing crossover issues for. Was and still is one of my favourite Rebirth covers tbh. I basically love all of Dan Mora's superhero work tho (especially Power Rangers stuff), and his Nightwing is no exception lol.
> 
> About the costume, I think he ended up changing the colours to fit her actual design at the time for the final cover, but I really liked the initial cover.
> Batgirl-14.jpg


Dan Mora is one of my favorite artists currently. I would straight up kill people to get him on Nightwing, Superman, or the League. His work with Morrison on BOOM!'s Klaus is a highlight each winter for me, that book is as good as Invincible was, as good as any Superman or Nightwing comic at their best. And Mora has got to be one of the hidden gems of comic book art right now, it's like he's off everyone else's radar except for the four people who know of him.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Or just basically bring back the classic Batgirl suit.


Well that had her body suit with it being all gray. I prefer it to be black/yellow rather than blue/yellow/gray

----------


## Pohzee

Really loved today's YJ episode. It really emphasizes how Dick has been struggling with Wally's death, which seems to be one of his main arcs this season.

Makes it more sad that despite the state that both of them are in in the comics, neither has acknowledged the other.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans show made me extra frustrated with Dick and Donna’s current relationship.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Really loved today's YJ episode. It really emphasizes how Dick has been struggling with Wally's death, which seems to be one of his main arcs this season.
> 
> Makes it more sad that despite the state that both of them are in in the comics, neither has acknowledged the other.


I also loved the episode. Really, it felt kinda like the episode I've really been waiting to see since S1 ended lol. Dick featured heavily in the first half of this season (arguably more than he did in Invasion), but the second half has felt lacking up until recently. Then this episode happened and man am I glad it did. They really set up the finale well, too. Really curious to see where they go from there.

*spoilers:*
There's also the theory that the next season is going to take inspiration from Final Crisis. At first, I was only expecting that to extend to Batman and Martian Manhunter dying, the former by Darkseid's hand (well, eye beams) specifically. Then I started to think how cool it'd be if Wally replaced Barry, which got me thinking about the other original Team members replacing their mentors and.... well, I used to think Bruce was going to die and Dick would step up and take Tim as his Robin (like in BatmanL Prodigal) and raise Damian as his own. Now I'm thinking Dick and M'gann will sacrifice themselves soon to reflect their mentors' deaths in FC. Not sure how to feel about that, but I'm still excited either way. Hey, maybe we'd get a Return of Dick Grayson in YJ instead of Bruce Wayne. Who knows?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

Rejoice, the Nightwing #63 preview is here. And yes it’s just more typical recap padding that every issue if this out dated shit run starts with. Jurgans is terrible. Where is the god damn urgency for a book that’s on it way out of the top 100. These old protected creators need to go. They are so lazy and unmotivated, and so thier work is just lazy and unmotivated.

----------


## Restingvoice

It's a little bit more pleasant now that he's training the Wings and therefore sounds smarter and closer to Nightwing. He's still separating himself from Nightwing but he's no longer saying "My name is Ric Grayson"

That stupid dirt mask still needs to go. 

They don't need to be urgent since the title's on lock for an event and people... well, at least Tumblr, are looking forward to Talon Dick since they've been fanfiction-ing it since The Court of Owls came out. That issue's gonna sell and save the title before people even realize they're reading Talon Ric and not Talon Dick. 

Beyond that, there's the annual detailing how he woke up and interact with Batman as Ric. This is also something they've been waiting for, so that issue's also sold. 

The real question is what comes after that. Are they gonna return him to Nightwing post Year of The Villain or are we gonna have a Talon for the next year. 

December solicitations is so far away.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I wish people realized what the recap is for. Someone randomly buying the newest issue of Nightwing after watching the newest episode of Young Justice or watching the Titans S2 trailer is going to be completely lost without some sort of recap to explain why Nightwing is technically not about Nightwing anymore. The recap is not a problem, it's the direction itself. The recap is really not indicative of anything.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I wish people realized what the recap is for. Someone randomly buying the newest issue of Nightwing after watching the newest episode of Young Justice or watching the Titans S2 trailer is going to be completely lost without some sort of recap to explain why Nightwing is technically not about Nightwing anymore. The recap is not a problem, it's the direction itself. The recap is really not indicative of anything.


Like anyone looking for Young Justice/Titans Nightwing is going to care for Ric, recap or not

----------


## Darkcrusade25

*spoilers:*
 Thomas wayne insults Dick, calls him a 'pretender to the throne, destined to fall" in batman 77 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

> It's a little bit more pleasant now that he's training the Wings and therefore sounds smarter and closer to Nightwing. He's still separating himself from Nightwing but he's no longer saying "My name is Ric Grayson"
> 
> That stupid dirt mask still needs to go. 
> 
> They don't need to be urgent since the title's on lock for an event and people... well, at least Tumblr, are looking forward to Talon Dick since they've been fanfiction-ing it since The Court of Owls came out. That issue's gonna sell and save the title before people even realize they're reading Talon Ric and not Talon Dick. 
> 
> Beyond that, there's the annual detailing how he woke up and interact with Batman as Ric. This is also something they've been waiting for, so that issue's also sold. 
> 
> The real question is what comes after that. Are they gonna return him to Nightwing post Year of The Villain or are we gonna have a Talon for the next year. 
> ...


This is the event arc, and yet still Jurgans can’t be bothered to get off his ass on this book. The covers have done more for the Year of Villain story on this book then Jurgans and his endless recapping has. The Annual probably won’t even crack the top 100 (the last one didn’t). That’s how flatlined the sales for this book have become. 

And while yes the event and covers will probably help bump orders a bit regardless, you still would think there would be some urgency to have to do better when a writer is at all time lows with a title. But no, not with these protected old guys. Cause it doesn’t matter for them if their work is shit or how it performs. Which just sucks that this is what the book and character has become now, fodder for DC’s good old boys to have something to do. Who are completely unmotivated, and have no reason to be motivated. 

Readers aren’t just gonna come back because they make him Nightwing again or even a Talon. Not after more then a years worth of callous shit, and not with these out of touch boring creators, who’s name and work don’t move crap in the current market anymore, writing these boring padded no effort stories. Regardless of tumblr art. 




> I wish people realized what the recap is for. Someone randomly buying the newest issue of Nightwing after watching the newest episode of Young Justice or watching the Titans S2 trailer is going to be completely lost without some sort of recap to explain why Nightwing is technically not about Nightwing anymore. The recap is not a problem, it's the direction itself. The recap is really not indicative of anything.


Ya, the every issue is someone’s first line. Because new readers are flocking to this every issue, and on average recap requires at least 5 pages or more per issue LoL. And not too mention that reads so well in trades too. Come on, the real reason every issue of this run spends a third, and sometimes even half, the pages repeating the same thing is because it’s a lazy way to fill in the art and pad out the issue. Notice how they never recap the actual story going on, cause there is none. Show me one other current book today abusing recap like this series has. Grayon, which similarly had Dick in an unfamiliar situation, didn’t waste pages every single issue repeating the same boring thing each issue. That fell out of style long ago, and is really only seen anymore with these old creators who are creatively dried up and just use it as an easy way to fill up the art and knock out some of the early pages. 

The direction itself is now just a mask, something for the bad and lazy work being done to hide behind, and this blatant abuse of the recap sure as hell is indicative of the kind of creative effort being put into this direction. The creators on this are creatively tapped out and just pad issue after issue. The lazy work and uninspired padded stories is a major reason why this direction has been so bad. Though when all is said and done, they’ll just go well readers just weren’t open to Ric. We already saw this cop out with Lobdell at the end of his garbage run. The direction is what they made of it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> *spoilers:*
>  Thomas wayne insults Dick, calls him a 'pretender to the throne, destined to fall" in batman 77 
> *end of spoilers*


I feel like I've heard that before. Different Bat character, different Bat villain.

Godlike13, it's gonna sell anyway because it's a landmark issue. People say they're angry about Ric yet the sale on that issue doubled the usual. Now they're getting something that interests them.

----------


## dietrich

Sucks. In the UK so can't really enjoy Dick in YJ or the Titans yet  :Frown:

----------


## dietrich

> *spoilers:*
>  Thomas wayne insults Dick, calls him a 'pretender to the throne, destined to fall" in batman 77 
> *end of spoilers*


That's unnecessary. Just why?

----------


## Lazurus33

> *spoilers:*
>  Thomas wayne insults Dick, calls him a 'pretender to the throne, destined to fall" in batman 77 
> *end of spoilers*


12.jpg

Batman #77

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Like anyone looking for Young Justice/Titans Nightwing is going to care for Ric, recap or not


Of course they won't, never argued otherwise. Doesn't matter who you are, you pick up Nightwing you're not getting Nightwing. Of course they have to try to justify it.

And about this Thomas Wayne thing, it really doesn't matter. It's an evil Wayne who is 100% a silly villain. Still, the book is from King so you never know what he's thinking.

----------


## Rac7d*

> *spoilers:*
>  Thomas wayne insults Dick, calls him a 'pretender to the throne, destined to fall" in batman 77 
> *end of spoilers*


Would that also make him one as well

----------


## Godlike13

> I feel like I've heard that before. Different Bat character, different Bat villain.
> 
> Godlike13, it's gonna sell anyway because it's a landmark issue. People say they're angry about Ric yet the sale on that issue doubled the usual. Now they're getting something that interests them.


Ric never doubled anything, and 62 barley got a bump from YotV.

----------


## Godlike13

Read the issue, doesn’t remotely resemble any of the solic LoL. It’s more typical useless padding till the last 5 pages. And of course they pussed out, rather then make a real example. The cover again pretty much covers all that really happens in this issue. No joke this story so far has had as much development and dept as the covers. Also Talon is weird. Doesn’t seem to be a zombie anymore, which boring, and is now kind of a mustache twirler.

----------


## L.H.

> I feel like I've heard that before. Different Bat character, different Bat villain.
> 
> Godlike13, it's gonna sell anyway because it's a landmark issue. People say they're angry about Ric yet the sale on that issue doubled the usual. Now they're getting something that interests them.


You're sure #62 doubled the usual sale? 'Cause I've seen on Comichron that the issue sold only 15859, and that's the lowest point in Nightwing history. 
Care to tell us what's your source?

----------


## Godlike13

Well, 15k + 9k.

----------


## L.H.

Oh, sorry, I forgot to check the card stock sales. But all the issue with card stock got bumped, so it doesn't mean nothing, imho. 
I gave a look at issue #63: boring as usual, looks like Talon Is the true hero around, the only one who can save us from Nightwing's wannabies.

----------


## Jackalope89

I know people are taking pot-shots at Jurgens for the current arc, but I have to wonder if its not editorial making him follow plot points for this. He's not the first to come on since the "Ric" thing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You're sure #62 doubled the usual sale? 'Cause I've seen on Comichron that the issue sold only 15859, and that's the lowest point in Nightwing history. 
> Care to tell us what's your source?


I was talking about #50, Ric's first issue and turning point (saw it in Comichron) and when I said Year of The Villain event I meant in context that people want to see Dick becoming a Talon, so it's the issue where Dick actually becomes Talon, as in... November?
People who're not reading will only look at the cover and announcement so that's the issue they'll pay attention, not the lead-up.

----------


## Godlike13

> I know people are taking pot-shots at Jurgens for the current arc, but I have to wonder if its not editorial making him follow plot points for this. He's not the first to come on since the "Ric" thing.


There needs to be a plot for there to be plot points. At what point does editorial not become the go to excuse for crappy uninspired writing. Editorial was the go to defense for Lobdell's lazy tone def trash too, even though as we have learned he campaigned to editorial to extend Ric. The only thing Jurgens run has had going for it is this Talon thing, which probably did come for Editorial. Right from Snyder's Last Knight even if i were to guess. Which at this point cool, cause these old dudes sure as hell weren't doing anything. Save for the same boring recap over and over, for like 12 issues strait now...




> I was talking about #50, Ric's first issue and turning point (saw it in Comichron) and when I said Year of The Villain event I meant in context that people want to see Dick becoming a Talon, so it's the issue where Dick actually becomes Talon, as in... November?
> People who're not reading will only look at the cover and announcement so that's the issue they'll pay attention, not the lead-up.


Nightwing #50 saw a whopping increase of 3,975 over the issue before. This stuff i usually ordered pretty blind by shops, and the Year of The Villain orders will probably decrease from July's.

----------


## Restingvoice

> There needs to be a plot for there to be plot points. At what point does editorial not become the be excuse for crappy uninspired writing. Editorial was the go to defense for Lobdell's lazy tone def trash too, even though as we have learned he campaigned to editorial to extend Ric. 
> 
> 
> 
> Nightwing #50 saw a whopping increase of 3,975 over the issue before. This stuff i usually ordered pretty blind by shops, and the Year of The Villain orders will decrease from July's.


That's weird. I remember it was 50K because I also remember being annoyed that comic readers being predictable as usual and buy events they're protesting.

----------


## Godlike13

Nope, didn't even crack 30k.

----------


## dietrich

I really enjoyed talon stomping one of the 'nightwings'

----------


## Rac7d*

With Spider-Man on ice now the time for dc to get that nightwing movie running

----------


## WonderNight

> With Spider-Man on ice now the time for dc to get that nightwing movie running


WB is not going to release a nightwing movie with a new batman trilogy on the way, they'd be to similar.

----------


## WonderNight

I was just on reddit and came across this thread about this guy is a dick grayson fan and loves him as Robin a d agent 37 but not nightwing. As he feel dick as nightwing has been lackluster.

Which got me thinking that one of nightwing biggest problems is the fact that nightwing doesn't have a PROPOSE! What I mean be that is dick as Robin was to be batman's partner/sidekick, as batman the lead/main of the batfamily/ ip, and as agent 37 he was dc's lead/ main spy character.

But as nightwing he's what? :Confused:  happy batman. What do you guys feel is dick as nightwing propose as an Ip/ concept?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nope, didn't even crack 30k.


Ah. I'm kinda glad actually. Coz that means it's not as bad as I thought. There's bound to be curiosity on what happens but it doesn't make people just blindly buy it in droves.




> I was just on reddit and came across this thread about this guy is a dick grayson fan and loves him as Robin a d agent 37 but not nightwing. As he feel dick as nightwing has been lackluster.
> 
> Which got me thinking that one of nightwing biggest problems is the fact that nightwing doesn't have a PROPOSE! What I mean be that is dick as Robin was to be batman's partner/sidekick, as batman the lead/main of the batfamily/ ip, and as agent 37 he was dc's lead/ main spy character.
> 
> But as nightwing he's what? happy batman. What do you guys feel is dick as nightwing propose as an Ip/ concept?


Nightwing did propose. First to Kori and then Barbara.

Sorry, can't help it. 

Nightwing's purpose is to grow up. A symbol of a sidekick growing up. An identity of someone trying to get out of the shadow of the bat.

That's pretty much it, from what I gathered, because they always go back to "try to get out of Batman shadow" in pretty much every arc, when he's Batman, when he's acting as a Titans leader, or when he's leading the Bat-family in Bruce's absence. It's the most recurring theme.

When they start a new arc, be it himself, other people, or a villain, someone's gonna make a comparison about him and Batman, how they're similar and how they're dissimilar, and there's an arc of gaining or regaining independence, proving that Dick can be himself, that he doesn't have to be like his mentor and be effective.  

It's a repeating story for a young adult getting out of their parent's house and be independent.

Of course, there are other story elements in Nightwing, but that is the one that stands out to me the most, the one that gets repeated a lot.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ah. I'm kinda glad actually. Coz that means it's not as bad as I thought. There's bound to be curiosity on what happens but it doesn't make people just blindly buy it in droves.
> 
> 
> 
> Nightwing did propose. First to Kori and then Barbara.
> 
> Sorry, can't help it. 
> 
> Nightwing's purpose is to grow up. A symbol of a sidekick growing up. An identity of someone trying to get out of the shadow of the bat.
> ...


Funny how Nightwing and others dont have this issue in young justice, they all are fine living their lives, they are grown up their no question about it. Its only an issue in comics because time cannot move normally because non meta humans would age and life move forward.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> There needs to be a plot for there to be plot points. At what point does editorial not become the go to excuse for crappy uninspired writing. Editorial was the go to defense for Lobdell's lazy tone def trash too, even though as we have learned he campaigned to editorial to extend Ric. The only thing Jurgens run has had going for it is this Talon thing, which probably did come for Editorial. Right from Snyder's Last Knight even if i were to guess. Which at this point cool, cause these old dudes sure as hell weren't doing anything. Save for the same boring recap over and over, for like 12 issues strait now...


Source for this Lobdell tidbit?

And if I had to guess, yeah, it should be editorial latching onto Snyder's stories so that they can do _something_ with Ric until it's time to end it. Too bad we don't know when that will be.

----------


## Godlike13

There was a podcast posted a couple pages back.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> There was a podcast posted a couple pages back.


I'm not gonna go listen to it, so I'll take your word for it lol.

----------


## Rac7d*

Why didnt he finsh the job? jeez, well hopefuly this means zak is out of commission and safe while the others get slaughtered

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Talon not killing him is proof that this damn Ric story is going to go on for another 8 months at least. Talon should be slowly killing them off one by one each issue.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I'm so ready for this Ric garbage to be over and done with.  I sure do miss reading about Dick Grayson/Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Funny how Nightwing and others don't have this issue in young justice, they all are fine living their lives, they are grown up their no question about it. Its only an issue in comics because time cannot move normally because non-metahumans would age and life moves forward.


Also because they're the main characters. There's no issue of not making them actually grow up and independent because there's no Batman or Justice League to steal the spotlight from. They're always off somewhere, off-screen, besides some sporadic appearances. 

Batman, the League, the adults are the supporting cast in the youth-oriented series, but in comics, they're the main character and the youths are the supporting cast.

----------


## Godlike13

> Why didnt he finsh the job? jeez, well hopefuly this means zak is out of commission and safe while the others get slaughtered


I know, right. I knew they wouldn’t have the balls to do what needed to be done, it just makes Talon look dumb. As if all the mustache twirling wasn’t bad enough with him. And they act as if the is the first time Zack has gotten hurt but this guy gets hurt like every arc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Also because they're the main characters. There's no issue of not making them actually grow up and independent because there's no Batman or Justice League to steal the spotlight from. They're always off somewhere, off-screen, besides some sporadic appearances. 
> 
> Batman, the League, the adults are the supporting cast in the youth-oriented series, but in comics, they're the main character and the youths are the supporting cast.


What spotlight, its not about that,  
The league does not spend time making the OG YG team feel inferior or second string, they can both act independently and collaborate with each other respectfully
They have healthy relationships, unlike the mess we saw back in the annual or the close of the Troia arc


The whole better then batman thing is suppose to be a brief phase that he grows out of, but it remain continuous due to time never moving forward in the new 52/rebirth

----------


## Rac7d*

> I know, right. I knew they wouldn’t have the balls to do what needed to be done, it just makes Talon look dumb. As if all the mustache twirling wasn’t bad enough with him. And they act as if the is the first time Zack has gotten hurt but this guy gets hurt like every arc.


to be honest I dont mind if he stays as a friend of dick on the force, dick need can have a bludhaven cast, Nightwing Prime, Red and Gold need go or be injured so much they can't interfere 
lol didnt he just get out of the hospital

----------


## Godlike13

Dick has had Bludhaven casts. There no reason to hold on to the lamest one, the one that actually hurts the character and dilutes the brand. These cardboard cut outs needs to go. An example should be made. In no way do any of the Nightwings support Dick, they are not designed to. Ric supports them.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick has had Bludhaven casts. There no reason to hold on to the lamest one, the one that actually hurts the character and dilutes the brand. These cardboard cut outs needs to go. An example should be made. In no way do any of the Nightwings support Dick, they are not designed to. Ric supports them.


Well zack a nice guy, he's dick's age, how many non super friends does he have
I'ts my hope these injuries will end him as nightwing, does dick have a bludhaven cast?

----------


## Godlike13

He’s had them, but they ditch them from one creator to the next or go scorched earth on them. Now when it would be in his benefit to go scorched earth they puss out.

----------


## byrd156

> I know people are taking pot-shots at Jurgens for the current arc, but I have to wonder if its not editorial making him follow plot points for this. He's not the first to come on since the "Ric" thing.


It is editorial mandated which sucks for a direction but editorial isn't making Jurgens write crap. Higgins had a lot of handicaps as well when he did his run and put out decent stuff.

Terrible ideas can be turned into something better. It's like putting terrible teachers into a bad school district and then saying well it was already bad so it doesn't matter. How can you expect something good to come from that? 

I love Jurgens but it's obvious that he isn't really interested in this current run he's doing.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It is editorial mandated which sucks for a direction but editorial isn't making Jurgens write crap. Higgins had a lot of handicaps as well when he did his run and put out decent stuff.
> 
> Terrible ideas can be turned into something better. It's like putting terrible teachers into a bad school district and then saying well it was already bad so it doesn't matter. How can you expect something good to come from that? 
> 
> I love Jurgens but it's obvious that he isn't really interested in this current run he's doing.


Would you be motivated to write Nightwing when you have to write a bunch of no-names as Nightwing, and Dick isn't even Dick?

----------


## Godlike13

> Would you be motivated to write Nightwing when you have to write a bunch of no-names as Nightwing, and Dick isn't even Dick?


He's the one that keeps claiming how interesting the direction is.

----------


## Godlike13

Do you guys think Ric will make them more hesitant to try new things with Dick in the future now? I said this before, but with the way they direct things to Ric and the direction, instead of ever acknowledging the sup par work behind Ric and what was was actually done with Ric, i feel like it could. Which would be a shame. Because the execution was and is as equally, if not more, responsible for how shitty Ric turned out then anything else. And it would suck if their attempts to hide behind the direction resulted in even less experimentation and trying of new things.

----------


## Pohzee

All I know is that Ric has made sure that I will NOT be buying anymore safe slop from Blüdhaven. I'm giving mediocre authors no more chances to not make this city suck like it does. Nobody below the tier of Bendis will bring me to touch another Nightwing book written in this city. This is the opposite of experimental. It's the safest, more boring crap there is. They need to nuke the city and move on. Hell nuking it gives it more potential than it has now or will ever have.

----------


## Godlike13

I liked the casino themed Bludhaven, but this back alley dive bar Bludhaven can f off.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

All they need to do is take Nightwing out of Bludhaven. Nuking it just means you have to spend an entire story arc leading up to said nuking and then the fall out of it, even if you do pretend it doesn't exist anymore after all that you still have to spend considerable page space for it. Just open an arc with him already moved out, just like we got with Rebirth's Nightwing #10 where Dick was already moved into Bludhaven.

Still, I don't expect either of those things to happen. We're probably going to be stuck with super safe stories set in Bludhaven for the foreseeable future tbh. There's just no real ambition when it comes to the mainline comics. Anything interesting is happening outside of it, like their graphic novel lines and Black Label.

----------


## Rac7d*

> All they need to do is take Nightwing out of Bludhaven. Nuking it just means you have to spend an entire story arc leading up to said nuking and then the fall out of it, even if you do pretend it doesn't exist anymore after all that you still have to spend considerable page space for it. Just open an arc with him already moved out, just like we got with Rebirth's Nightwing #10 where Dick was already moved into Bludhaven.
> 
> Still, I don't expect either of those things to happen. We're probably going to be stuck with super safe stories set in Bludhaven for the foreseeable future tbh. There's just no real ambition when it comes to the mainline comics. Anything interesting is happening outside of it, like their graphic novel lines and Black Label.


Nightwing doesn’t have to leave bludhaven it can still be his home

----------


## Vordan

Casino Bludhaven that was basically Las Vegas was the only time Ive ever cared about Bludhaven. That aesthetic fit Dicks personality perfectly and should never have been abandoned. Let Dick join whatever spy organization arises from Event Leviathan and have that spy organization HQ in Bludhaven. That way when you want Dick to be Nightwing in Bludhaven it makes sense and when you want to do global spy stories that also makes sense.

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing doesn’t have to leave bludhaven it can still be his home


Why? What does it being his home offer him? It doesn't protect him from being dragged into Gotham for Batman events and stories, and there are no other characters in Bludhaven worth a damn. It is a complete waste of space that has had like 150 issues by many different writers all failing at turning it into anything substantial. Something that actually benefits the character. I'll never understand why people are so attached to it. It is just an anchor around Dick's neck that drags him through mediocre story after mediocre story. An uninspiring setting where writers churn out lazy ideas we've read dozens of times and forces the character into some of the most generic aspects and trappings of superhero comics.

----------


## Pohzee

I was robbed out of a good nuked Blüdhaven story and the fact that Dick didn't play a larger role in Final Crisis was a travesty.

 I demand a redo.  :Cool:

----------


## byrd156

> Would you be motivated to write Nightwing when you have to write a bunch of no-names as Nightwing, and Dick isn't even Dick?


Hell yeah. I'd be motivated to write Dick Grayson in any form. I think the Nightwings have merit, more-so as an arc or two but nothing long running. As for Dick not being Dick, I'd be the writer so I'd get to choose how he'd act. Ric would never ever happen under my pen. Ric and the Nightwings aren't a bad idea. (The name change is but I digress.) Amnesia and fall from grace stories are a dime a dozen and are fun from time to time, (Batman and Aquaman just had some semi-recently) this could be something special like Knightfall or Death & Return of Superman. This feels like a half assed mash-up of the two stories with some extra worse parts of the 90s thrown in.

I think Dick giving up on being a hero after losing his memory is fine, makes enough sense to me. Having some cops in Bludhaven decide to take over as Nightwing is fine as well. These two core ideas are fine. It's the details and the fine lines that makes this story so boring and lame to read. 

Dick feels very passive in his own damn book, that's a big no no. If this was called the Nightwings or We Are Nightwing that would be fine but it's not, this is still Dick's book. I think a lot of the moments of Dick helping people out of compulsion or "muscle memory" as they say in the books are generally the best moments of the book. I think those should keep ramping up until Dick realizes who he needs to be again. The Scarecrow arc is the biggest offense to me, he was written horribly and the whole arc was very unsatisfying. Scarecrow should've been the main bad guy for the whole arc of the Nightwings.

----------


## byrd156

> He's the one that keeps claiming how interesting the direction is.


Jurgens or me?  :Confused:

----------


## byrd156

> Do you guys think Ric will make them more hesitant to try new things with Dick in the future now? I said this before, but with the way they direct things to Ric and the direction, instead of ever acknowledging the sup par work behind Ric and what was was actually done with Ric, i feel like it could. Which would be a shame. Because the execution was and is as equally, if not more, responsible for how shitty Ric turned out then anything else. And it would suck if their attempts to hide behind the direction resulted in even less experimentation and trying of new things.


No I doubt this run will affect anything going forward. DC will do whatever they feel like with the character going forward. This run feels like it's making enough money and DC doesn't care about Dick right now anyway.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why? What does it being his home offer him? It doesn't protect him from being dragged into Gotham for Batman events and stories, and there are no other characters in Bludhaven worth a damn. It is a complete waste of space that has had like 150 issues by many different writers all failing at turning it into anything substantial. Something that actually benefits the character. I'll never understand why people are so attached to it. It is just an anchor around Dick's neck that drags him through mediocre story after mediocre story. An uninspiring setting where writers churn out lazy ideas we've read dozens of times and forces the character into some of the most generic aspects and trappings of superhero comics.


Why do you hate it so much?

What exactly is the city suppose to do that it’s not fulfilling. How is it different from star city, central city go city? Dick could live in Tibet and he is still gonna run tonGotham and Batman when called no location can change that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What spotlight, its not about that,  
> The league does not spend time making the OG YG team feel inferior or second string, they can both act independently and collaborate with each other respectfully
> They have healthy relationships, unlike the mess we saw back in the annual or the close of the Troia arc
> 
> 
> The whole better then batman thing is suppose to be a brief phase that he grows out of, but it remain continuous due to time never moving forward in the new 52/rebirth


The League in Young Justice doesn't make the OG team feel inferior or second string because they're not second strings. They're the main characters. The story is about them. Of course, they don't treat them that way. The League is the supporting cast.

On the other hand, the League in the comic can afford to be an ass because they're the focus, the main characters, events revolve around them. People don't have to read Titans to know what's happening in DCU at large but they need to read the League. So they can do whatever they want with Titans.

----------


## Godlike13

> Jurgens or me?


You  :Stick Out Tongue: , no Jurgens of course. It’s pretty much the only thing he says about his run.

----------


## byrd156

> You , no Jurgens of course. It’s pretty much the only thing he says about his run.


Lol sorry the replies were kinda wonky.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The League in Young Justice doesn't make the OG team feel inferior or second string because they're not second strings. They're the main characters. The story is about them. Of course, they don't treat them that way. The League is the supporting cast.
> 
> On the other hand, the League in the comic can afford to be an ass because they're the focus, the main characters, events revolve around them. People don't have to read Titans to know what's happening in DCU at large but they need to read the League. So they can do whatever they want with Titans.


Their the main character only in this narrative and perspective 
The world knows only the JL the team is primarily black operations

----------


## byrd156

> Would you be motivated to write Nightwing when you have to write a bunch of no-names as Nightwing, and Dick isn't even Dick?


I think if we nixxed the whole Ric hanging out at the Prodigal bar (good joke), the cab stuff, the baldness, and the apparent homelessness this would be a bit more tolerable. This whole arc feels like a 90s version of Taxi Driver without any of the nuance or atmosphere. Focus in on Dick and Babs, maybe cutting a couple Nightwings and giving them more of a dynamic with Dick earlier on and giving Scarecrow a better through-line would be more enjoyable. If I had to follow Lobdell, I think it would be a bit rough but I would do it in a heartbeat, granted I couldn't do this pitch below but I think I could take elements into some version of it.

If I were writing this and I had to use the amnesia and Nightwings without following Lobdell I would start the arc with the night Dick was shot. Laying in the rain, bleeding out. Flash forward to Bludhaven a few weeks/months/whatever. Everyone is giving Dick a little time to heal before telling him he's a superhero. I feel like the entire first issue or most of the first issue would be Dick laying in a hospital bed with various heroes sitting at his bedside talking to his unconscious/unresponsive body. From the Titans to Superman to Bruce and so on. I think it would be pretty heart wrenching to see Donna and Garth being the only two original sidekicks left trying to support their friend or talk about what happened to Wally and Roy with Dick who may or may not be able to hear them. 

Now we re-establish Dick after he wakes up, this is him at his worst point in the story. He's just been shot and doesn't feel himself. Maybe a little angry and confused, he's trying to distance himself from everyone who are now strangers to him. He's hanging around Bludhaven but doesn't know why other than habit. He meets up with Babs whom he can't seem to brush off and tries to help him through this newfound trauma until she reveals he's a hero. Naturally this is a huge shock to him but eventually he accepts that.

We see Babs encourage him; he works up to going through the gadgets, wearing the costume, and then running around on rooftops. Almost like a kid learning about superheroes for the first time. When he's starting to traverse the city with Batgirl he's doing well for the first few buildings but then suddenly experiences extreme vertigo and overwhelming fear. He has a pretty bad fall that alerts some nearby cops, Babs rushes him back to the metro hideout leaving a trail of blood as they are chased by the cops. They disappear into the hideout and the cops (Future Nightwings) are suspicious of the area. Dick's fear is instantly recognizable to Babs since it's a reaction from Scarecrow's fear toxin. Dick is rushed back to Gotham for testing and the bullet did some additional damage to Dick that no one caught at first. When his adrenaline starts pumping he has small bouts of fear toxin rush through his system from an experimental gas Scarecrow used years ago that seemingly didn't work on Dick causing Scarecrow to hate Dick. The brain damage caused by the bullet finally activated the fear toxin inside. (This is some BS comic science but it makes as much sense as the stuff we actually got.  :Stick Out Tongue:  ) This news gets worse for Dick since the only way it could be cured is if they have one created by the Scarecrow who has been laying low since his last escape from Arkham.

Dick decides this is getting to be too much for him and decides to leave. Bruce and the Bat-family work on looking for Scarecrow while Dick returns to Bludhaven trying to work through the fear himself. Trying to walk a highwire that he keeps lowering and lowering. He manages to balance on a sidewalk curb for a bit, claiming a small victory. Meanwhile a couple of those cops from earlier investigate the metro station and find Nightwing's hideout. Since Dick hasn't been active as Nightwing crime has gone up in Bludhaven and he hasn't been maintaining his hideout or security of said hideout so it's easy to access. (I think this while a little convenient but it is a lot better than Dick just torching it.) The cops decide to take the equipment for themselves and think that they could do a better job. 

The Nightwings in this version of the story are going to be walking reasons why Dick can only be Nightwing and how becoming a street hero is difficult/deadly without proper training. Each one representing aspects of Dick from certain eras. (Discowing being young and more fun, 90s being gritty and mean, etc.) There would be 5 Nightwings instead of the 4 we have. The cops all pick their costumes (Discowing, 90s yellow V, classic blue and black, Red New 52, and Chicago Red finger stripes.) The blue Rebirth suit is still in Dick's possession in his apartment after his fall. So begins the Reign of the Supermen, I mean the Nightwings! The cops do well on their first few nights out, busting up some crime that they couldn't otherwise do in their normal jobs. Things soon turn south after busting up an illegal chemical deal being done for the Scarecrow in the Bludhaven harbor. The 5 Nightwings take him on in a fight and Chicago stripes is killed due to 90s V being reckless unbeknownst to Cheyenne and the whole shipping vessel sinks in the ensuing fight. This is when it's revealed to the public that there is a team of Nightwings running around in Bludhaven. Scarecrow knows from his fight that none of them were the real Nightwing and that he needs to lay low because of the botched job. The cops become worried that their identities will be revealed when Chicago Stripes' body is found. Tensions begin to rise within the group as they start to realize how crazy this idea has become. 90s V is becoming more ruthless in his methods and keeping the team in line.

Back to Dick, he finally breaks down and looks for help when fractured memories and emotions start coming back to him. He has a talk with Bruce who recommends a few psychiatrists he knows who work in Bludhaven. Dick goes to them all but doesn't think any of them are for him but then finds a small psychiatrist office that is a front used by the Scarecrow who is now stuck in Bludhaven waiting for a new chemical shipment. Scarecrow becomes Dick's psychiatrist for the rest of the story. There's a lot of dancing around them revealing who they really are to each other. The two actually begin to bond somewhat.

While Dick is having these sessions with Crane; Dick feels he needs to confront the Nightwings about the botched job at the Harbor. He confronts them and they mostly blow him off, Discowing is the only one to stay and talk. I'd also make her Cheyenne Freemont because why not? Cheyenne holds back the info about her friend dying and that they fought the Scarecrow. Dick would start training her but as the same time using it as a way to retrain himself in secret. The two start becoming close and even team-up with the other Nightwings. Things look like they are finally turning around for Dick. He's starting to keep his fear under control, not completely but a lot better now. Until Babs returns with news about the Scarecrow being in Bludhaven, the Dead Nightwing and that Scarecrow has quietly been sending chemicals to Bludhaven for years for some reason.

The reveal about the dead Nightwing fractures the group and breaks Dick's newfound confidence he built. The Nightwings decide that they need to take down Scarecrow they start roughing up and hurting innocents to find him. Cheyenne and New 52 are horrified at what they're becoming and try to leave. Black and Blue accidentally kills New 52 when he tries to call for help. Cheyenne flees barely over coming 90s V due to her training with Dick. The last 2 Nightwings track down Scarecrow's front and attack while Dick is in the middle of a session. Dick has to fight them off to unknowingly save Scarecrow's life. Who then gasses everyone in the room with a brand new compound he's been working on for years in Bludhaven. This new compound is a reworking of the original gas he tested on Robin years ago. The reworked formula causes Dick to trip his face off but in the process clear his mind. Cheyenne and Batgirl arrive just in time to see Dick knock out Scarecrow.

In the end Cheyenne apologizes for everything that has happened and what she and the rest of the Nightwings caused by putting on the mask. Dick tells her that horrible things like this will always happen whether you wear the mask or not. It's just better to give it your best and try to save as many people as you can or something like that. I dunno I've only put in like an hour coming up with this.

I really like the idea of a villain being rather passive in a arc, like they are in the middle of working up to some big scheme and some other unrelated issue pops up ruining their plan. A lot of this would be more character and dialogue focused which I can't really put into a huge long post like this since this is already long enough.

----------


## Badou

> Why do you hate it so much?
> 
> What exactly is the city suppose to do that it’s not fulfilling. How is it different from star city, central city go city? Dick could live in Tibet and he is still gonna run tonGotham and Batman when called no location can change that.


Because in my eyes is a detriment to his character. Something that holds his stories back and prevents creators from telling more creative and interesting ones. There is a significant difference between what Bludhaven is to Dick and what a Star City or Central City is to GA or Flash. Those cities are where those characters are from. They have deeply rooted history there, and Dick has none of that with Bludhaven. I've repeated this so many times, but Dick has no family from there, none of his superhero identities were formed there, no friends or teams he knows there, and no real career or job to keep him there unlike all those other important cities for their heroes, but we are supposed to act like Bludhaven is just as important to Dick as all those other cities are to their heroes. It doesn't work for me. 

It forces creators to go down generic tropes and put Dick into a superhero box that is a watered downed version of those other heroes and their cities instead of finding a more unique and fitting path for his character. Bludhaven's main use is just a place to shove Dick's character away to when editorial doesn't want to deal with him. Gotham and Haly's Circus will always be his "home" over Bludhaven to me and I don't really see what it adds to his overall character at the end of the day.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Do you guys think Ric will make them more hesitant to try new things with Dick in the future now?


I don't, if for no other reason that some Bat-event in the future will require Dick to be nerfed, and DC will need to come up with creative ways to do that.

----------


## Arsenal

> Do you guys think Ric will make them more hesitant to try new things with Dick in the future now? I said this before, but with the way they direct things to Ric and the direction, instead of ever acknowledging the sup par work behind Ric and what was was actually done with Ric, i feel like it could. Which would be a shame. Because the execution was and is as equally, if not more, responsible for how shitty Ric turned out then anything else. And it would suck if their attempts to hide behind the direction resulted in even less experimentation and trying of new things.


Outside of decreasing the odds of a "hey, what if Dick got amnesia?" pitch getting approved by TPTB, I doubt it'll have any significant impact on how willing DC will be to try new things with Dick going forward.

----------


## K. Jones

> Outside of decreasing the odds of a "hey, what if Dick got amnesia?" pitch getting approved by TPTB, I doubt it'll have any significant impact on how willing DC will be to try new things with Dick going forward.


I tend to agree. Somebody will want to try something and they'll okay it. At some point.

Tangentially, I was under the impression that TPTB are like, well aware that this Ric thing is hot garbage. I don't know if it's specifically that the title and character is in a holding pattern until somebody big does something big, but obviously that's how it started. I am pretty curious about the behind-the-scenes writer conference side of things, though. Like, would King have derailed Nightwing (which I don't think is a wrong decision in and of itself) if Seeley had still been writing that book? Did Seeley jump ship when the plan was set in motion? Why didn't they just cancel the book, then relaunch with a new # 1 and new creative team when King's story "fixed" it. So on, so forth.

But anyway yeah, there's always going to be that freedom with Nightwing that Batman just doesn't have.

----------


## byrd156

> I tend to agree. Somebody will want to try something and they'll okay it. At some point.
> 
> Tangentially, I was under the impression that TPTB are like, well aware that this Ric thing is hot garbage. I don't know if it's specifically that the title and character is in a holding pattern until somebody big does something big, but obviously that's how it started. I am pretty curious about the behind-the-scenes writer conference side of things, though. Like, would King have derailed Nightwing (which I don't think is a wrong decision in and of itself) if Seeley had still been writing that book? Did Seeley jump ship when the plan was set in motion? Why didn't they just cancel the book, then relaunch with a new # 1 and new creative team when King's story "fixed" it. So on, so forth.
> 
> But anyway yeah, there's always going to be that freedom with Nightwing that Batman just doesn't have.


Didn't Bruce go through an amnesia story a few years ago with Robo-bunny Gordon? Seems like a lot of freedom to me.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

https://new.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...on_wally_west/

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> I tend to agree. Somebody will want to try something and they'll okay it. At some point.
> 
> Tangentially, I was under the impression that TPTB are like, well aware that this Ric thing is hot garbage. I don't know if it's specifically that the title and character is in a holding pattern until somebody big does something big, but obviously that's how it started. I am pretty curious about the behind-the-scenes writer conference side of things, though. Like, would King have derailed Nightwing (which I don't think is a wrong decision in and of itself) if Seeley had still been writing that book? Did Seeley jump ship when the plan was set in motion? Why didn't they just cancel the book, then relaunch with a new # 1 and new creative team when King's story "fixed" it. So on, so forth.
> 
> But anyway yeah, there's always going to be that freedom with Nightwing that Batman just doesn't have.


I don't know about Seeley, but the guy who was writing Nightwing at the time did jump ship when his plans for the book were overruled for the "Ric" storyline.

King is on record as saying that the resolution to this is out of his hands, so it seems as if there were no plans to fix this in his run.

----------


## nightbird

I think it’s good the see, that Dick will be a mentor to all that New Titans

----------


## nightbird

EA63A657-5501-4C4E-9DFF-55C1085ACA71.jpg

84A332C6-0A44-4C0A-8FC9-3AE04D3FA77B.jpg

Official poster and banner for Titans Season 2

----------


## byrd156

> https://new.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...on_wally_west/


I love that the upvote is Dick and the downvote is Ric.

----------


## byrd156

> I think it’s good the see, that Dick will be a mentor to all that New Titans


I knew they were going to give Garth the Roy/Donna relationship. Won’t be surprised if he acts like him too. Also he might be dead, hope not but seriously. Why does DC always pass around their female characters like this? They do this with Babs all the time in other media from the Arkham games to animated movies. I’m all for exploring character relationships, it just feels like they wanted to have Roy there but filled in the gap.

Like imagine Titans gets you into these characters in the comics and you’re really invested in Donna and Garth together. What a surprise it’ll be when you see that they have never been together and never had any kind of romantic interactions. It feels werid.

----------


## nightbird

“You command more respect than you realize”

And yet we also have new DC animation version, where Nightwing is a useless idiot and striped down from his past glory and connections comics version.
YJ right now one of the best depiction of the character, despite them sometimes not giving him enough screentime.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I knew they were going to give Garth the Roy/Donna relationship. Won’t be surprised if he acts like him too. Also he might be dead, hope not but seriously. Why does DC always pass around their female characters like this? They do this with Babs all the time in other media from the Arkham games to animated movies. I’m all for exploring character relationships, it just feels like they wanted to have Roy there but filled in the gap.
> 
> Like imagine Titans gets you into these characters in the comics and you’re really invested in Donna and Garth together. What a surprise it’ll be when you see that they have never been together and never had any kind of romantic interactions. It feels werid.


Roy can still show up later, or they might use him with Jason later on, in which case he cant have his titans history,its one or the other now

----------


## Rac7d*

If you want to ask DAn Jurgens some question you can now on dcuniverse
https://www.dcuniverse.com/community...-jurgens-anima

----------


## Pohzee

> If you want to ask DAn Jurgens some question you can now on dcuniverse
> https://www.dcuniverse.com/community...-jurgens-anima


Whats even worth asking? Nothing nice.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What’s even worth asking? Nothing nice.


It doesnt have to be nice

----------


## Frontier

> I knew they were going to give Garth the Roy/Donna relationship. Wont be surprised if he acts like him too. Also he might be dead, hope not but seriously. Why does DC always pass around their female characters like this? They do this with Babs all the time in other media from the Arkham games to animated movies. Im all for exploring character relationships, it just feels like they wanted to have Roy there but filled in the gap.
> 
> Like imagine Titans gets you into these characters in the comics and youre really invested in Donna and Garth together. What a surprise itll be when you see that they have never been together and never had any kind of romantic interactions. It feels werid.


I sometimes wonder if there's anyone in the comics who expect to see Superboy and Miss Martian as a couple or Wally making out with Artemis (who isn't even a character in the comics at the moment). 



> You command more respect than you realize
> 
> And yet we also have new DC animation version, where Nightwing is a useless idiot and striped down from his past glory and connections comics version.
> YJ right now one of the best depiction of the character, despite them sometimes not giving him enough screentime.


Dick was portrayed so well here.

----------


## Lazurus33

STL127551.jpg

(W) Neal Adams (A/CA) Neal Adams
Gotham City is under siege by terrorists, and Batman is determined to find the source. But when Boston Brand tries to intervene, he discovers an even more disturbing and deadly truth: the terrorists are led by an inhuman monster. Ra's al Ghul has volunteered his own private security force to aid the GCPD, and now they are the only thing standing between nuclear terror and the townspeople! But al Ghul's true goal is hidden from everyone's eyes. He will destroy the city and kill Batman-this time for good. Watching in horror is... Bruce Wayne?
In Shops: Sep 04, 2019
SRP: $3.99

----------


## Pohzee

Thinking about Young Justice Nightwing and the nature of the show revolving around the evolution of the characters. What do you guys think is the likelihood that we end up with DickBats? Would you guys enjoy seeing that onscreen or would you prefer the show work to establish the independence of the Nightwing identity?

----------


## Arsenal

I think theres a fairly decent chance theyll do DickBats but it wouldnt be a permanent transition. Id give it a season at most. 

So with that said, I wouldnt mind seeing it done so long as we avoid Battle for the Cowl to get there.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not sure i’d fit with the shows character arc. YJ Nightwing doesn’t even want to be part of the JL.

----------


## Frontier

> I think there’s a fairly decent chance they’ll do DickBats but it wouldn’t be a permanent transition. I’d give it a season at most. 
> 
> So with that said, I wouldn’t mind seeing it done so long as we avoid Battle for the Cowl to get there.


I think it'd probably be more likely to be permanent if only because this show actually seems willing to phase out the major heroes.

I mean, they retired Aquaman so Kaldur could take over. So I think anything is on the table. Even though they kind of screwed Wally over....

But I don't think it will happen until Damian's old enough to be Robin. 



> I’m not sure i’d fit with the shows character arc. YJ Nightwing doesn’t even want to be part of the JL.


But at the end of the season he accepted coming back into the fold and helping organize everything (and I think lead the Team again?) so Jefferson would come back and lead the League. 

His whole character arc was realizing he's a leader even if he doesn't want to be.

----------


## Pohzee

I'd personally prefer he eventually accepts is role as a leader, but as Nightwing. I feel like doing it as Batman shows him coming full circle, but seeing Nightwing lead the Justice League is something I've always wanted to see. Nightwing should be good enough to lead the League, he doesn't need to be Batman to do that.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd personally prefer he eventually accepts is role as a leader, but as Nightwing. I feel like doing it as Batman shows him coming full circle, but seeing Nightwing lead the Justice League is something I've always wanted to see. Nightwing should be good enough to lead the League, he doesn't need to be Batman to do that.


With the way he seems to be progressing as a character, I could see it happening within the next few years (in-universe).

----------


## Arsenal

As long as it’s made clear that Dick was made leader because of who he is and his resume, I don’t particularly care which costume he wears while doing it.

----------


## Pohzee

> As long as it’s made clear that Dick was made leader because of who he is and his resume, I don’t particularly care which costume he wears while doing it.


I want to see Nightwing elevated, not a stepping block in between Robin and Batman.

----------


## Godlike13

But at the same time Nightwing is him trying forge his own path, and in YJ he seems to be rebellious when it comes to what expected for him to do. Joining, or leading the JL even, isn’t exactly true to that. He doesn’t seem to want to lead anyone in general, even if he keeps falling into it, and he doesn’t seem very interested in being part of the JL really. I kind of want to see YJ’s take on a Titans with him. The JL isn’t really special in the universe, in that it’s predictable. They all have seem to grow up to join the JL, and Kaldur already did the take over for their mentor and lead it bit.

----------


## L.H.

Dick becoming Batman in YJ is just wrong, imho. He doesn't want to, and he doesn't need. Nightwing called the meeting (and everybody answered) he suggested Black Lightning as the new leader (and everybody agreed). He is himself, and much more trusted and followed than Batman. Onestly, making him Batman will be a step back.

----------


## Badou

I don't think it would be that out of character for him to become Batman if Bruce dies or disappears. He is mature enough to take over the identity if he feels it is needed for Gotham. It depends how much of a timeskip they will want to do in the future. Damian is still just a baby, so they would need to jump forward 10 years if they want to do a version of Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin. Which would age up their whole cast into their 20s now. That would be a bit tough to pull off I think. So there are some things like that making it difficult. 

I always thought it would be more likely to happen if there was a glimpse into the future like with the world controlled by Darkseid and Dick would be Batman there leading what is left of some resistance. Like instead of Wally being dead he got sent to that future and runs into Dick as Batman. I can envision something like that happening more than it happening in the normal timeline, but they want to keep Wally as being dead so that whole scenario seems unlikely too.

----------


## ThePhoenix

Hi guys! I love Nightwing and have bought the books up until Seeley's departure. After it, started the whole Ric fiasco which I despise and really hope for the character to return to his better days.

----------


## Ascended

> Thinking about Young Justice Nightwing and the nature of the show revolving around the evolution of the characters. What do you guys think is the likelihood that we end up with DickBats? Would you guys enjoy seeing that onscreen or would you prefer the show work to establish the independence of the Nightwing identity?


I can see it happening. A lot of Dick's best stories in recent years were during his time as Batman, so I can see Weisman thinking "what're people bitching about? These are your favorite Dick stories I'm pulling from!?" And Batman being such a huge IP, I can see the corporate appeal of elevating a core cast member to the cowl (like they did with Kaldur). And it provides a lot of narrative soil because this *isnt* something Dick wants but could feel honor-bound to do, which is a great character arc and an interesting way to tie his story back around to season 1. 

But I dont want it to happen. I dont mind Dick stepping into the role temporarily, just to give Bruce a hand. But long-term its not where I think his character should go. Nightwing as a brand can stand on its own two feet (with a little TLC anyway) and that is infinitely more appealing than Dick wearing someone else's clothes that don't even truly fit right. He's competent enough to get the job done but I think he's a poor fit for the "Batman" role. It's just not what or who he is. And I'd rather see another IP rise up in popularity (and YJ can help do that for Nightwing) than see one that's already bloated eat everything in reach. 

But I wont be at all surprised if Weisman does it, and if he does it'll probably be well done and we'll have nothing to really complain about beyond "this isn't the direction I'd have liked but it's still good."

----------


## byrd156

> Dick becoming Batman in YJ is just wrong, imho. He doesn't want to, and he doesn't need. Nightwing called the meeting (and everybody answered) he suggested Black Lightning as the new leader (and everybody agreed). He is himself, and much more trusted and followed than Batman. Onestly, making him Batman will be a step back.


I don't think it's wrong and I think it'll happen but not permanently.

----------


## OWL45

> I don't think it's wrong and I think it'll happen but not permanently.


I dont see how Dick Grayson becoming  Batman is a bad thing either temporarily or permanently.

----------


## Pohzee

> I don’t see how Dick Grayson becoming  Batman is a bad thing either temporarily or permanently.


Making Nightwing an in-between of Robin and Batman completely changes the meaning behind it. Instead of being an evolution of Dick into his own man equal to Batman. It becomes a stepping stone lesser than both Batman and Robin, cementing Nightwing as the pointless Robin-lite that Didio sees him as.

----------


## Godlike13

> Making Nightwing an in-between of Robin and Batman completely changes the meaning behind it. Instead of being an evolution of Dick into his own man equal to Batman. It becomes a stepping stone lesser than both Batman and Robin, cementing Nightwing as the pointless Robin-lite that Didio sees him as.


As much as i loved his Batman run, there is truth to this.

----------


## Konja7

> Making Nightwing an in-between of Robin and Batman completely changes the meaning behind it. Instead of being an evolution of Dick into his own man equal to Batman. It becomes a stepping stone lesser than both Batman and Robin, cementing Nightwing as the pointless Robin-lite that Didio sees him as.


This is true. 

The problem is many people in DC see Nightwing exactly like this stepping stone. 

The question is how Weissman see Nightwing identity, because that would affect the story.


That said, it is pretty difficult Young Justice can really rise the popularity of Nightwing. The show isn't so popular.

----------


## Pohzee

It was popular enough to come back from cancellation and help launch DC's streaming service

----------


## byrd156

> Making Nightwing an in-between of Robin and Batman completely changes the meaning behind it. Instead of being an evolution of Dick into his own man equal to Batman. It becomes a stepping stone lesser than both Batman and Robin, cementing Nightwing as the pointless Robin-lite that Didio sees him as.


I think that depends on the circumstances of the transition. If it's Dick saying "finally I get to be Batman" then I would agree. But if Dick is doing it out a responsibility that he feels he needs to do then I don't. Dick knows how important the legend of the Batman is and would do what any hero does, sacrifice their own happiness/choice for the greater good.

----------


## Restingvoice

Anyone saw if Talon Ric Grayson or William Cobb is in Lex's Legion lineup? Jason's in since he's training his next-gen Legion...

----------


## Godlike13

There was a weird Owl creature. Dick, or Ric, seems MIA. No one want to go anywhere near the Nightwing teams lazy gutter trash. It’s an embarrassment to the industry.

----------


## Pohzee

> There was a weird Owl creature. Dick, or Ric, seems MIA.


Hopefully it is him.

----------


## Godlike13

Like he’s gonna be running around is a big, laughable, mascot like Owl head. I mean I guess I could see the current people behind the character thinking that would be cool or something. They are an awful idea factory.

----------


## Restingvoice

That's fine. I just want a sign if he's gonna stay Talon long or even if he actually becomes a Talon or not.

----------


## Godlike13

As usual I don’t think they know what they are doing, and probably are just making it up as they go day to day. Hell they are probably waiting for someone like Scott Lobdell to come and tell them what they should do, lol. As thats how things seem to operate with the character. 

In all seriousness though, I wouldn’t expect them to have some in-depth or thought out plan with him as a Talon. They never have that with anything they do with this character

----------


## Pohzee

The Talon story will suck, but they CANNOT go back to Ric after it, so I'm hoping it accelerates the end of this torture and we move on to Nightwing with no mention of either Ric or the Court.

----------


## Fergus

> I think that depends on the circumstances of the transition. If it's Dick saying "finally I get to be Batman" then I would agree. But if Dick is doing it out a responsibility that he feels he needs to do then I don't. Dick knows how important the legend of the Batman is and would do what any hero does, sacrifice their own happiness/choice for the greater good.


What about responsibility to his own city? The folks in Bludhaven aren't any less important than Gothamites. Dick's 1st responsibility should be to the people of his city but writers and fans don't seem to consider that. Curious would you expect Green Arrow to cover for Batman because he knows how important the legend of Batman is?

----------


## Schumiac

> What about responsibility to his own city? The folks in Bludhaven aren't any less important than Gothamites. Dick's 1st responsibility should be to the people of his city but writers and fans don't seem to consider that. Curious would you expect Green Arrow to cover for Batman because he knows how important the legend of Batman is?


I forgot, does Dick have a claim on Blüdhaven in YJ? I dont remember him claiming it as his city there, he is wherever he is needed the most, isnt he?

Which is probably how it should be in comics. Obviously he will be living in A city and the hometown may feature in more stories as a result of being where he is based at, but the "Protector of City X" thing can be rather limiting, esp when done the obsessed "MY CITY" way...  As for Gotham. He has a special connection to it as it is the place he called home for a long while and where he grew up in and whose streets he daily patrolled and put a lot of work into keeping that city safe. So in a situation where Batman is missing and Gotham's psychopaths are having a field day (so much more urgency and danger than a usual day in Blüdhaven),  I can see Dick being back in Gotham doing everything in his power to bring some order back and keep the city safe, including doning the Batman costume if he believes it is needed... It would be understood that is a temp gig, and he EXPECTS Bruce to come back soon enough. Next time he believes Bruce to be really dead, though, I think even if he relocates to Gotham, he should be out on the streets as Nightwing. Because there is a huge difference between him doing Bruce a favor and reluctantly doing something he is not fond of till Bruce is back in action vs him, thinking Bruce is dead-dead & deciding to act like someone else for the rest of his life

----------


## WonderNight

> What about responsibility to his own city? The folks in Bludhaven aren't any less important than Gothamites. Dick's 1st responsibility should be to the people of his city but writers and fans don't seem to consider that. Curious would you expect Green Arrow to cover for Batman because he knows how important the legend of Batman is?


or Bruce stops being batman because ric grayson is here. I get it, people look at nightwing as just another Robin.

----------


## Pohzee

YJ Blüdhaven is a suburb of Gotham, but the point is well taken. If Nightwing is a well established identity, a leader of the League, and a central figure of the superhero community, his absence should be just as great as Batman's.

----------


## byrd156

> What about responsibility to his own city? The folks in Bludhaven aren't any less important than Gothamites. Dick's 1st responsibility should be to the people of his city but writers and fans don't seem to consider that. Curious would you expect Green Arrow to cover for Batman because he knows how important the legend of Batman is?


I'm probably Bludhaven's biggest defender/fan, I would say it's okay for Dick to leave. Leaving and not having some sort of protection in his absence are two different things. Batgirl (I think Steph) and Robin (Tim) would pop in over there from time to time during the early 2000s if I'm remembering correctly. I could see Dick using Bludhaven as a training/proving ground for young heroes like them. There's tons of possibilities with an idea like this.

Also that GA is a false equivalent and you know it. Dick has an attachment to Gotham, so it's not improbable for him to come back and set up shop there again. (Which he has multiple times.  :Stick Out Tongue:  )

----------


## Godlike13

> What about responsibility to his own city? The folks in Bludhaven aren't any less important than Gothamites. Dick's 1st responsibility should be to the people of his city but writers and fans don't seem to consider that. Curious would you expect Green Arrow to cover for Batman because he knows how important the legend of Batman is?


Apparently Superman can leave Metropolis for a unforeseen amount of time. So im not sure if responsibility to a city is as big a deal in the YJ universe.

----------


## Arsenal

> YJ Blüdhaven is a suburb of Gotham, but the point is well taken. If Nightwing is a well established identity, a leader of the League, and a central figure of the superhero community, his absence should be just as great as Batman's.


Is Nightwing a well established ID in YJ (among the public, not the capes)?

----------


## Pohzee

> Is Nightwing a well established ID in YJ (among the public, not the capes)?


The point is that it should be. In time.

----------


## Badou

> YJ Blüdhaven is a suburb of Gotham, but the point is well taken. If Nightwing is a well established identity, a leader of the League, and a central figure of the superhero community, his absence should be just as great as Batman's.


Batman is a public figure in the YJ universe because of his involvement with the JL. Nightwing in that universe isn't that public of a figure and mainly acts behind the scenes, so his loss wouldn't really be felt that much by the general public.

Nightwing isn't going to join the JL in the YJ universe for the same reason he doesn't in the comics. They think it will be redundant for him and Bruce to both be on the same team. So He would only step into a more public role if Batman is removed.

----------


## Fergus

> I'm probably Bludhaven's biggest defender/fan, I would say it's okay for Dick to leave. Leaving and not having some sort of protection in his absence are two different things. Batgirl (I think Steph) and Robin (Tim) would pop in over there from time to time during the early 2000s if I'm remembering correctly. I could see Dick using Bludhaven as a training/proving ground for young heroes like them. There's tons of possibilities with an idea like this.
> 
> Also that GA is a false equivalent and you know it. Dick has an attachment to Gotham, so it's not improbable for him to come back and set up shop there again. (Which he has multiple times.  )


I used GA because he was a non meta hero just like Nightwing. { a meta hero could cover two cities making it an unfair comparison}

Having an attachment to the city isn't necessary like you said *sacrifice their own happiness/choice for the greater good is what any hero does and they all know how important the legend of Batman is.*

Since it isn't technically his responsibility on the show at the moment then yeah Nightwing can cover Gotham as Nightwing [no need to put on the cowl] or we Robin and his "Angels" cover for Bats and Nightwing can do his thing  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## byrd156

> I used GA because he was a non meta hero just like Nightwing. { a meta hero could cover two cities making it an unfair comparison}
> 
> Having an attachment to the city isn't necessary like you said *sacrifice their own happiness/choice for the greater good is what any hero does and they all know how important the legend of Batman is.*
> 
> Since it isn't technically his responsibility on the show at the moment then yeah Nightwing can cover Gotham as Nightwing [no need to put on the cowl] or we Robin and his "Angels" cover for Bats and Nightwing can do his thing


I know what I said. That's why I said it isn't improbable for him to come back.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Apparently Superman can leave Metropolis for a unforeseen amount of time. So im not sure if responsibility to a city is as big a deal in the YJ universe.


Although Steel has been established so I don't think Metropolis is completely unprotected. We also have the Batfamily for Gotham. 

Coast City is pretty much screwed though  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> Nightwing isn't going to join the JL in the YJ universe for the same reason he doesn't in the comics. They think it will be redundant for him and Bruce to both be on the same team. So He would only step into a more public role if Batman is removed.


That and members of The Team stay on the Team because they feel like they can contribute more there. Like how Conner and M'Gann stuck with them for years.

----------


## WonderNight

> Batman is a public figure in the YJ universe because of his involvement with the JL. Nightwing in that universe isn't that public of a figure and mainly acts behind the scenes, so his loss wouldn't really be felt that much by the general public.
> 
> Nightwing isn't going to join the JL in the YJ universe for the same reason he doesn't in the comics. They think it will be redundant for him and Bruce to both be on the same team. So He would only step into a more public role if Batman is removed.


yeah I know nightwing won't join the league. But I find it funny how shows can have batman, batwoman and huntress or nightwing, batgirl and Robin or superman and supergirl or hackman and hawk girl or 3 green lanterns all on the same team at the same time but only when it's batman and nightwing is it now redundant. Funny

----------


## Rac7d*

> yeah I know nightwing won't join the league. But I find it funny how shows can have batman, batwoman and huntress or nightwing, batgirl and Robin or superman and supergirl or hackman and hawk girl or 3 green lanterns all on the same team at the same time but only when it's batman and nightwing is it now redundant. Funny


The comic universe is messed up there is enough sunshine for all of rhem

----------


## Masterff

> yeah I know nightwing won't join the league. But I find it funny how shows can have batman, batwoman and huntress or nightwing, batgirl and Robin or superman and supergirl or hackman and hawk girl or 3 green lanterns all on the same team at the same time but only when it's batman and nightwing is it now redundant. Funny


Dont understand what you mean:

Superman and Supergirl were never in the same team or? Superman JL and Supergirl TT, besides Supergirl isnt in YJ
Hawkman and Hawkgirl belong together like Hawk and Dove
Batman and Robin,Huntress you are talking about their own team or?

----------


## WonderNight

> Dont understand what you mean:
> 
> Superman and Supergirl were never in the same team or? Superman JL and Supergirl TT, besides Supergirl isnt in YJ
> Hawkman and Hawkgirl belong together like Hawk and Dove
> Batman and Robin,Huntress you are talking about their own team or?


im talking about the animated shows.

Superman and supergirl were in the league together in both JLU and justice league action. Batman and huntress in JLU, batman and batwoman in YJ. And nightwing, robin and batgirl on the team in YJ.

Heck YJ had both red arrow and green arrow on the league at the same time, no problem. But nightwing and batman? Now it's "redundant".

----------


## Badou

Honestly, Dick leaving Bludhaven would be the best thing to happen to the city. Since the city is only under attack and facing problems when Nightwing is there. When he isn't there the city doesn't really exist and nothing is going to happen to it, lol. 




> That and members of The Team stay on the Team because they feel like they can contribute more there. Like how Conner and M'Gann stuck with them for years.


Also because them joining a team that already has Superman and Manhunter would be redundant too, right? Kaldur joined the league and became Aquaman and Arthur stepped down. So it is just like comics where the main legacy characters can't join the same team as their mentors at the same time.

----------


## WonderNight

I at least like that the team is a part of the league. They're the justice leagues covert ops unit as black manta calls it.

Which got me thinking, man I miss dick being a spy. Nightwing as DC's main spy character would be such a great niche for him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I at least like that the team is a part of the league. They're the justice leagues covert ops unit as black manta calls it.
> 
> Which got me thinking, man I miss dick being a spy. Nightwing as DC's main spy character would be such a great niche for him.


Their is no spy world in Dc

----------


## WonderNight

> Their is no spy world in Dc


And yet it's still more developed and important  than bludhevan will ever be.

Right now DC's spy world has event leviathan going on, let me know when DC has a event with bludhevan.

----------


## Rac7d*

> And yet it's still more developed and important  than bludhevan will ever be.
> 
> Right now DC's spy world has event leviathan going on, let me know when DC has a event with bludhevan.


So he have to sit on his ass  for 4 years to be apart of it. Then it’s done and spotlight moves to the next thing. Nightwing is not confined to bkudhaven he can be anywhere he wants, it’s just editorial keep putting him in a box when big events happen, forever evil, heroes in crisis, heck even spyral was a box that kept him away
From big superhero crossovers.

----------


## WonderNight

> So he have to sit on his ass  for 4 years to be apart of it. Then it’s done and spotlight moves to the next thing. Nightwing is not confined to bkudhaven he can be anywhere he wants, it’s just editorial keep putting him in a box when big events happen, forever evil, heroes in crisis, heck even spyral was a box that kept him away
> From big superhero crossovers.


if nightwing was DC's main spy character than as long as he had a solo things won't be "done" and the "spotlight" won't move on. Dick would be the spotlight.

----------


## Pohzee

I wonder if the new Batman will mean more Ric time so as to provide a plausible explanation as to why Dick isn't stepping back into the cowl.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric can’t survive another summer and into 2021, but I’m sure they find some poorly thought out excuse or will just limbo him.

----------


## Badou

They are just going to say Dick can't leave Bludhaven because it is SO IMPORTANT to him as a way to write Dick out of the new Batman story.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Robanker

> I wonder if the new Batman will mean more Ric time so as to provide a plausible explanation as to why Dick isn't stepping back into the cowl.


This is my great fear. I really miss reading about Nightwing, but that's my first thought when the rumor of a new Batman came about.

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder if the new Batman will mean more Ric time so as to provide a plausible explanation as to why Dick isn't stepping back into the cowl.


I admit this worries me also.

----------


## yohyoi

> So he have to sit on his ass  for 4 years to be apart of it. Then its done and spotlight moves to the next thing. Nightwing is not confined to bkudhaven he can be anywhere he wants, its just editorial keep putting him in a box when big events happen, forever evil, heroes in crisis, heck even spyral was a box that kept him away
> From big superhero crossovers.


DC has been in the contain Nightwing camp ever since the New 52. He is a dilemma for DiDio and co. A popular and beloved character not part of their holy era of comics.

He makes Batman too old... Blah blah... He is too skilled and the most capable leader around... Blah blah... But he makes us money and people won't shut up if we limbo him... You get the idea. That's why we have Ric.

----------


## dietrich

> I wonder if the new Batman will mean more Ric time so as to provide a plausible explanation as to why Dick isn't stepping back into the cowl.


Oh God I didn't even think about that. Well s**t!

----------


## Drako

This Nightwing is better than Ric.




https://twitter.com/worldsfinest/sta...42342785048576

----------


## Godlike13

That’s pretty groovy  :Cool:

----------


## byrd156

> This Nightwing is better than Ric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/worldsfinest/sta...42342785048576


Shaggy pulls off Discowing really well.

----------


## Restingvoice

By the way, since the last time we saw Hush he has Dick's face, should he be made into Nightwing villain, since the Bat office's not really using it?

Hmm... now that I mention it though, it's not gonna last long since Hush is one of the top-selling Batman stories. Even if they're not using him, even though his appearance in Arkham games are lackluster, and even though the animated movie changed who's under the bandages, it's a character that's gonna be permanently associated with Batman as long as it remains best-selling

Hey... speaking of Hush taking Dick's face... wouldn't it be funny if Ric is actually Hush? It won't be since Dick's been in character most of the time since the wedding prelude, but I giggle at the thought that Dick hating on smartphones because it's actually Thomas in the inside. Just a fun thought.

Oh but the other thoughts are creepier since he spent a night with Barbara in Bruce's honeymoon suite after the failed wedding

----------


## Rac7d*

Was nightwing 64 pushback I dont see it on the website anymore,

----------


## Lazurus33

The Complicated History Between Bruce Wayne & Dick Grayson

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing in Batman V Ra's Al Ghul #1







From the Damian Wayne thread

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I feel like I hallucinated the whole thing but didn't Neal Adams draw a story with Dick subbing in as Batman fairly recently? I somehow thought that was this Batman vs. Ra's al Ghul book but that's clearly a new thing and not something that's been running for long enough for me to have seen this one page with DickBats...

----------


## Pohzee

> I feel like I hallucinated the whole thing but didn't Neal Adams draw a story with Dick subbing in as Batman fairly recently? I somehow thought that was this Batman vs. Ra's al Ghul book but that's clearly a new thing and not something that's been running for long enough for me to have seen this one page with DickBats...


It was in his contribution to Detective Comics #1000 which seems to have been a setup for this series. He dressed up as Batman so that Bruce Wayne could be at a crime scene.

----------


## Rac7d*

What happened to his next issue it’s notnlistedndor next week, I can’t have this book delayed now that it’s finally going somewhere

----------


## Lazurus33

> Was nightwing 64 pushback I dont see it on the website anymore,


(W) Dan Jurgens (A) Ronan Cliquet (CA) Bruno Redondo, Nightwing #64
Blüdhaven explodes in violence as a riot erupts in the streets. Ric can't face this alone, so he'll have to enlist the support of the Nightwings. Meanwhile, Talon has taken Bea captive to lure Ric into his grasp and reintroduce him (for the first time, in Ric's memory) to the Court of Owls.
In Shops: Sep 18, 2019

----------


## Avi

Just watched the new Titans episode. While it's still fumbling as a show, Dick keeps being a good character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Just watched the new Titans episode. While it's still fumbling as a show, Dick keeps being a good character.


It the wacky ending to season 1 I hear episode 2 kicks it up

----------


## Avi

> It the wacky ending to season 1 I hear episode 2 kicks it up


it should, the ending of ep 1 was already better but i won't trust anything i haven't seen yet. better keep my expectations low.

----------


## Godlike13

I thought it was a solid enough season finale/opener. Trigon went down a little too easy, but what can you do. Also I still just can’t see Jorah as Bruce. Slade looked good though.

----------


## Pohzee

Yeah, like he was too old and British for me to buy it. No way he's out there still beating people up

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Yeah, like he was too old and British for me to buy it. No way he's out there still beating people up


That's what he wants you and the rest of Gotham to think.  :Smile: 

I thought the episode was very solid overall and really enjoyed it, but that's mostly because most of the episode was a lackluster finale to the previous season with some great moments interspersed throughout. The actual S2 portion was great and a good sign of things to come. A tonal shift right along with Dick and Rachel's new outlooks on life, I really can't wait to see how things play out.

Also I was talking about the episode with someone today, and it kinda hit me that this was the first proper conversation we've seen between Bruce and Dick in any media since Nightwing vs. Hush. Even YJO never featured Bruce and Dick actually talking to each other more than the few lines they exchanged in the finale (you know, about Dick commanding more respect than he realizes, which was an amazing exchange ofc).




> It was in his contribution to Detective Comics #1000 which seems to have been a setup for this series. He dressed up as Batman so that Bruce Wayne could be at a crime scene.


Oh, thank you! This makes more sense lol, glad my brain didn't make it up. It's an even bigger deal if it was in DC #1000.

----------


## Frontier

> Also I was talking about the episode with someone today, and it kinda hit me that this was the first proper conversation we've seen between Bruce and Dick in any media since Nightwing vs. Hush. Even YJO never featured Bruce and Dick actually talking to each other more than the few lines they exchanged in the finale (you know, about Dick commanding more respect than he realizes, which was an amazing exchange ofc).


They talked in the _Hush_ film. Unless that's what you're referring too?

----------


## dietrich

Coming up in Batman Last Knight 3

----------


## Rac7d*

> Coming up in Batman Last Knight 3


Are we sure that’s him

----------


## BloodOps

> Are we sure that’s him


Yeah I'd think so.

Dick was really the only supporting character besides Alfred and Gordon that Snyder likes to use.

----------


## L.H.

> Are we sure that’s him


Well, just look at the end of #2. Same suit, same beard.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> They talked in the _Hush_ film. Unless that's what you're referring too?


I chose to skip the movie so it slipped my memory lol, but I'll take your word for it so I guess it hasn't been long at all.

----------


## Pohzee

Nicola Scott's 80 years of Dick has him turned around lol.

https://twitter.com/nicolascottart/s...844086272?s=21

----------


## Arsenal

No agent 37? That’s unfortunate. 

Still, looks good.

----------


## Pohzee

> No agent 37? Thats unfortunate. 
> 
> Still, looks good.


No DickBats either. Funny that there's three Robins with the same costume and none of the alien New 52 suit

----------


## Ascended

> No DickBats either. Funny that there's three Robins with the same costume and none of the alien New 52 suit


Well, a lot of people would look at DickBats and wonder why Bruce was in the image, so.....  :Big Grin: 

What "alien" New52 suit? Do you mean the red one? Because I'm pretty sure that one is on the bottom right side of the image. You can see all the extra seams and lines.

No Agent 37 is definitely a little sad though.

But I love that she put "current" Nightwing in that back-to, sexy pose you see artists put women in all the time. That's right Dick, you show off that ass!  :Stick Out Tongue:  Far as I'm concerned, that's Gotham's ass! (Endgame quote, in case you missed that)

This is just for fun right? This wasnt a job? Shame, that needs to be an actual cover.

----------


## Frontier

> Nicola Scott's 80 years of Dick has him turned around lol.
> 
> https://twitter.com/nicolascottart/s...844086272?s=21


Couldn't resist the butt shot. 



> No agent 37? That’s unfortunate. 
> 
> Still, looks good.


Yeah, I would've switched out one of the Robins or Nightwing's for Agent 37 and his Batman look.

----------


## Restingvoice

> nicola scott's 80 years of dick has him turned around lol.
> 
> https://twitter.com/nicolascottart/s...844086272?s=21


called it!

----------


## Pohzee

> What "alien" New52 suit? Do you mean the red one? Because I'm pretty sure that one is on the bottom right side of the image. You can see all the extra seams and lines.


No that suit's not bad I mean Rocafort's ugly-ass Robin suit.

----------


## Badou

No DickBats or Agent Grayson are disappointments. Wonder what that says about how DC views the character. Still looks nice though.

Also is that one the BTAS Nightwing? Interesting that they would include that one when it has had he fewest appearances of all of them. Young Justice Nightwing would have been nice to see as it is probably the best other media adaptation of Dick's character, especially as Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> No DickBats or Agent Grayson are disappointments. Wonder what that says about how DC views the character. Still looks nice though.
> 
> Also is that one the BTAS Nightwing? Interesting that they would include that one when it has had he fewest appearances of all of them. Young Justice Nightwing would have been nice to see as it is probably the best other media adaptation of Dick's character, especially as Nightwing.


It's unofficial. She just did it for fun. I still think there won't be 80th Dick anniversary because what DC's celebrating is the series. Action Comics and Detective Comics. She did Wonder Woman Sensation Comics for fun too.

----------


## nightbird

432791EC-CD0E-4976-B0A0-4A7F9DE63BDE.jpg

08FF79C5-3E24-4F8D-AB62-6EDE0CBC978E.jpg

https://ryjuu0102.tumblr.com/post/18...career-path-no

----------


## nightbird

5D5F479C-FCBE-4237-856C-0E976B550636.jpg

Dick and Dami

https://zatotubu.tumblr.com/post/187.../dick-and-dami

----------


## byrd156

> No DickBats either. Funny that there's three Robins with the same costume and none of the alien New 52 suit


I think the 3 Robins are important, Dick grew up as Robin and seeing those stages is awesome.

I actually like how the two main New 52 Nightwing suits were just combined. 

Also I think it sucks that DickBats was ommited but don't really care that Grayson was. It wasn't really a cool design and always changed.

----------


## byrd156

> No DickBats or Agent Grayson are disappointments. Wonder what that says about how DC views the character. Still looks nice though.
> 
> Also is that one the BTAS Nightwing? Interesting that they would include that one when it has had he fewest appearances of all of them. Young Justice Nightwing would have been nice to see as it is probably the best other media adaptation of Dick's character, especially as Nightwing.


I always love seeing the BTAS (TNBA) Nighting drawn outside of the Timm style. The mask shape and the Nightwing bird symbol really stand out.

----------


## Pohzee

> I always love seeing the BTAS (TNBA) Nighting drawn outside of the Timm style. The mask shape and the Nightwing bird symbol really stand out.


That symbol is still so closely tied to the Nightwing brand with merchandise. They should just stick with it.

IMO it’s still his best costume. Simple as possible and distinct.

But screw DickBats and Agent 37. Where is Ric?!

----------


## Arsenal

> That symbol is still so closely tied to the Nightwing brand with merchandise. They should just stick with it.
> 
> IMO it’s still his best costume. Simple as possible and distinct.
> 
> But screw DickBats and Agent 37. Where is Ric?!


Being saved for the 100 year anniversary. Instead of all his costumes, it’ll just be various versions of Ric.

----------


## Avi

> 432791EC-CD0E-4976-B0A0-4A7F9DE63BDE.jpg
> 
> 08FF79C5-3E24-4F8D-AB62-6EDE0CBC978E.jpg
> 
> https://ryjuu0102.tumblr.com/post/18...career-path-no


lol, don't know if i want job advise from Dick I-live-on-Dad's-money Grayson xD but that's such a cool idea to show off his various gigs!

----------


## nightbird

> lol, don't know if i want job advise from Dick I-live-on-Dad's-money Grayson xD but that's such a cool idea to show off his various gigs!


Well, no one said anything about money  :Stick Out Tongue:  But no one can seriously argue over the fact, that Dick’s career choices pretty diverse :Wink:  Especially compared to other heroes lol

----------


## nightbird

AD31D109-B15F-40FF-9206-718F2AAA94E3.jpg

Despite not having Dicks blue eyes I think they did very well with casting Brenton.

----------


## Jackalope89

> AD31D109-B15F-40FF-9206-718F2AAA94E3.jpg
> 
> Despite not having Dick’s blue eyes I think they did very well with casting Brenton.


Oh definitely. The darker tone of the story and characters as a whole aside, he really is a good pick for Dick. Just surprised they bumped up his age to when he took on Nightwing so much though.

----------


## Starrius

> AD31D109-B15F-40FF-9206-718F2AAA94E3.jpg
> 
> Despite not having Dick’s blue eyes I think they did very well with casting Brenton.


He is alright
I don't think any of the people look similar to the characters in the comics

BTW...This actor is 6'2
in the comics, Robin is 5'10

now, Dick is taller than Bruce in the Titans series
he's also a bit taller than Kory,  and that's supposed to be the other way around

the only way that I enjoy this show is just to view it as an alternative take to it
If I try to view it similar as the comics, I'd be very disappointed

----------


## Badou

The directing and writing for the show left a lot to be desired, it was really a mess in parts and I didn't like some creative choices, but I think they did a good job with his casting in the show. Hopefully they learn from the many mistakes from the first season and the actor has better material to work with. 




> He is alright
> I don't think any of the people look similar to the characters in the comics
> 
> BTW...This actor is 6'2
> in the comics, Robin is 5'10
> 
> now, Dick is taller than Bruce in the Titans series
> he's also a bit taller than Kory,  and that's supposed to be the other way around
> 
> ...


Where did you get 6'2 from? He is 5'11 or 6' from what I googled.

----------


## Pohzee

I almost wish Dick were taller in the comics. The fact that he's shorter than Bruce seems like some rather pointed symbolism that he will never outgrow Bruce as a character.

 Plus, it'd be somewhat funny to see a Robin taller than Batman at the tail end of his career. That'd make for a good beat or two.

----------


## Konja7

> I almost wish Dick were taller in the comics. The fact that he's shorter than Bruce seems like some rather pointed symbolism that he will never outgrow Bruce as a character.
> 
>  Plus, it'd be somewhat funny to see a Robin taller than Batman at the tail end of his career. That'd make for a good beat or two.


The height is the way to differentiate the characters (as you can see in New52 Batman #1). So, Batman will always be the taller.

----------


## Pohzee

> The height is the way to differentiate the characters (as you can see in New52 Batman #1). So, Batman will always be the taller.


Exactly. Think about what that shows visually.

Little birdboy stands up to the Big Bad Bat. (Literally!) Him being taller would add an interesting power dynamic in arguments. Batman ranks seniority, but has to look up angrily at Dick.

Or the imagery of a taller Robin looking down to Batman and telling him that he realizes that he's old enough now to stand on his own.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Exactly. Think about what that shows visually.


I see your point, and I've thought like that myself in the past, but I think it's better that Dick is a little shorter than most heroes. He doesn't have the same look as most super macho designs we see given to male Golden and Silver Age heroes. Being short doesn't make you any less of a hero, and Dick's height is perfect for his acrobatics which is a lot more important imo. The only thing I have a problem with when it comes to his depiction these days is how some artists draw Dick pretty lithe, when he's been anything but that in the past. Thankfully doesn't happen much in the Nightwing or Titans books, but it definitely happened in Batgirl during Rebirth.

The other thing is while you make this point, it's important to remember most artists and editors don't seem to care at all about canon heights anyways. Starfire should be 6'4" and yet, whenever you rarely see her on the same page as Nightwing these days, he's taller. Even Batgirl, as Babs is 5'11" and still, Dick is taller than her whenever they're on a page together. Dick has been shown to be the same height as Bruce or Clark a couple times too. It's like the characters' age, their height is just an arbitrary number assigned to them. It's all variable anyways.

Still, his height isn't all that vital to his character. He's as tall as Bruce in Young Justice: Outsiders and is about as muscular now and it works for him there.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I think Barbara Gordon being 5'11 is something that only happened in the Arkham games? Isn't comic Barbara's height 5'7 (at least according to the DC Wikia) so it would make sense for Dick to be taller than her when they share a panel. 

Though maybe the people who draw these things are just intimidated by taller people and that's why Nightwing keeps showing up taller than or equal to people who should be taller than him? :P

----------


## Frontier

> I think Barbara Gordon being 5'11 is something that only happened in the Arkham games? Isn't comic Barbara's height 5'7 (at least according to the DC Wikia) so it would make sense for Dick to be taller than her when they share a panel. 
> 
> Though maybe the people who draw these things are just intimidated by taller people and that's why Nightwing keeps showing up taller than or equal to people who should be taller than him? :P


Yeah, comic Barbara has always seemed on the short side.

----------


## nightbird

> He is alright
> I don't think any of the people look similar to the characters in the comics
> 
> BTW...This actor is 6'2
> in the comics, Robin is 5'10
> 
> now, Dick is taller than Bruce in the Titans series
> he's also a bit taller than Kory,  and that's supposed to be the other way around
> 
> ...


Brenton is not that tall. 

And I think Dick is one of the hardest characters to cast out there. Thats why I enjoy when actor acts good and looks good as Dick Grayson.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Brenton is not that tall. 
> 
> And I think Dick is one of the hardest characters to cast out there. That’s why I enjoy when actor acts good and looks good as Dick Grayson.


His height doesn’t matter

Everyone is fine except Jason who is will have to be replaced

----------


## yohyoi

Tim Duck made me realize Ric is kinda okay name. Also Ric is better at keeping his secret identity, you know, secret than Tim. We smartest Robin now! Endgame bois!

----------


## Darkcrusade25

:Stick Out Tongue: 


> Tim Duck made me realize Ric is kinda okay name. Also Ric is better at keeping his secret identity, you know, secret than Tim. We smartest Robin now! Endgame bois!


LMK when Ric stops spending half the book recapping his life. :Wink:

----------


## yohyoi

Poor boy has early quarterlife onset dementia. He needs it to remember the past issue  :Frown:  Thoughts and prayers  :Frown:

----------


## Pohzee

> Poor boy has early quarterlife onset dementia. He needs it to remember the past issue  Thoughts and prayers


Him forgetting to do an issue recap must be how we got here in the first place then!

----------


## yohyoi

> Him forgetting to do an issue recap must be how we got here in the first place then!


Forgetting is Ric's superhero weakness. It was inevitable.

----------


## cc008

So I've jumped into Batman and Red Hood reading, figured I should add Nightwing to the mix as well!! Are the New 52 paperbacks worth starting with? Or just start with Rebirth?

----------


## Pohzee

> So I've jumped into Batman and Red Hood reading, figured I should add Nightwing to the mix as well!! Are the New 52 paperbacks worth starting with? Or just start with Rebirth?


The first two or three volumes if you liked Batman, then pick up the Grayson series, which leads up to Rebirth.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

20190912_152504.jpg

Gah! It seems I can't escape this Ric crap  :Stick Out Tongue:  Apologies for the terrible picture

----------


## cc008

> The first two or three volumes if you liked Batman, then pick up the Grayson series, which leads up to Rebirth.


Great!! Thank you!

----------


## Rac7d*

> So I've jumped into Batman and Red Hood reading, figured I should add Nightwing to the mix as well!! Are the New 52 paperbacks worth starting with? Or just start with Rebirth?


Go for it with the NEW 52




> I almost wish Dick were taller in the comics. The fact that he's shorter than Bruce seems like some rather pointed symbolism that he will never outgrow Bruce as a character.
> 
>  Plus, it'd be somewhat funny to see a Robin taller than Batman at the tail end of his career. That'd make for a good beat or two.


Nah his height plays into his gymnastic ability and makes sense, also its nice not everyone is 6'3 and a bodybuilder

----------


## byrd156

What is it with terrible names and designs that is infecting DC lately?

----------


## Badou

I'd never give DC money for it and buy it, but I just realized how awful the Ric story will be in trades. Every issues has pages and pages of recapping why Dick is now Ric that in trades it will read horribly.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> 20190912_152504.jpg
> 
> Gah! It seems I can't escape this Ric crap  Apologies for the terrible picture


I would choose this Rick Story any day over the other at least he was successful student

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> What is it with terrible names and designs that is infecting DC lately?


DC is just in a really edgy place since the guys DC gave the keys to (Snyder, Williamson, Tynion, King, and Bendis) are mostly interested in going full edge lol.

It's depressing to think Donna is going to be going by "Deathbringer" until March at the very least like...

----------


## Frontier

> DC is just in a really edgy place since the guys DC gave the keys to (Snyder, Williamson, Tynion, King, and Bendis) are mostly interested in going full edge lol.
> 
> It's depressing to think Donna is going to be going by "Deathbringer" until March at the very least like...


Poor Donna  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Avi

The December Variant is so cliché. I look at it and don't see Dick at all, just a random villain.

----------


## Drako

When asked to be a Hero Ric "Jon Snow" Grayson said for 15 issues: I DON'T WANT IT.

But what about a villain?





*NIGHTWING #67*
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by BRUNO REDONDO
variant cover by WARREN LOUW
Accepting his destiny as the Gray Son, Ric Grayson joins his great-grandfather as the newest Talon! Hes cleaning up Blüdhaven and restoring order to a city that has been in complete and utter disarray for the past year. But at what cost? When he faces off against a new enemy whose metal tests his mettle, everyones values will be tested.
ON SALE 12.18.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES

https://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-solici...december-2019/

Also, for the people with money to spend.



https://animefigures.info/scale-figu...fx-kotobukiya/

----------


## Arsenal

Looks like the “Dick as a Talon” people are gonna get their wish (sort of).

----------


## Restingvoice

We're really gonna get another year of Ric but this time as Talon aren't we

or at least one story arc

Whatever. More importantly

Nightwing-ARTFX-Figure-by-Kotobukiya-3.jpg

Those buns are well glazed

----------


## byrd156

> Looks like the “Dick as a Talon” people are gonna get their wish (sort of).


What a terrible thing to wish for....  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I mean Ric is hot trash and anything would be better but being a villain isn't something I want to see Dick do either. It's like having my legs broken instead of my arms.

----------


## Pohzee

Absolutely furious about the cover of Batman #85.

Also I don’t give a hoot about Talon Dick, but why would he spend time in Blüdhaven after joining the Court? They shouldn’t care.

----------


## Badou

Does Dick's Talon costume have a fucking tail? How dumb looking, lol.

They can't even get his Talon costume right.

----------


## OWL45

> Does Dick's Talon costume have a fucking tail? How dumb looking, lol.
> 
> They can't even get his Talon costume right.


No it doesnt. Its the other characters piece of wing. To each his own willing to give it a chance.

----------


## Pohzee

DC doesn't deserve anybody's money from this.

----------


## Badou

> No it doesn’t. It’s the other characters piece of wing. To each his own willing to give it a chance.


Look again. You see the end of the wing on the other side of Dick. The part coming off the back of Dick's costume looks like bird tail feathers. It looks dumb to me.

----------


## OWL45

> Look again. You see the end of the wing on the other side of Dick. The part coming off the back of Dick's costume looks like bird tail feathers. It looks dumb to me.


It’s a coat he is wearing. It’s not a tail. You get a better look at the costume up close on the cover of issue 66 that no one seemed to have a problem with last solicitation.

----------


## Pohzee

> It’s a coat he is wearing. It’s not a tail. You get a better look at the costume up close on the cover of issue 66 that no one seemed to have a problem with last solicitation.


No it was still bad. We talked about how bad it looked on the JL cover.

----------


## Badou

> It’s a coat he is wearing. It’s not a tail. You get a better look at the costume up close on the cover of issue 66 that no one seemed to have a problem with last solicitation.


It looks like part of the costume to me still. Since you see the front of the coat/costume and there is a cut off where the tail feathers part come out the back but don't go in the front like a normal coat. It is like one of those black tailed suits. Like what a butler wears.

----------


## OWL45

> No it was still bad. We talked about how bad it looked on the JL cover.


There were posters who liked it in all due respect.

----------


## Restingvoice

> No it was still bad. We talked about how bad it looked on the JL cover.


It was in a JL cover? Which one?

----------


## OWL45

If you take a look at it and look at the issue coming out before it you can see it’s a coat tail not an actual tail. I just think this is a step that some of us wanted in regards to a Talon story line and also it’s better than hobo Ric. I know some are being negative but I think it has potential. We all know he won’t stay this way and it’s just a bridge for him becoming Nightwing again.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b23/1909/f1/840d26228d05.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1909/db/0c6f5414740b.jpg[/IMG]

Some Dick moments in 2nd episode of Titans with Bruce and Jason.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c23/1909/35/0b4135ed1b44.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://b.***********/b13/1909/87/d8806a58503e.jpg[/IMG]

... and dick joke.

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c23/1909/35/0b4135ed1b44.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]https://b.***********/b13/1909/87/d8806a58503e.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> ... and dick joke.


That's actually funny.

----------


## Godlike13

> When asked to be a Hero Ric "Jon Snow" Grayson said for 15 issues: I DON'T WANT IT.
> 
> But what about a villain?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *NIGHTWING #67*
> ...


LoL, so that was him in the mascot outfit in JL. And of course this is Ric as a Talon, and of course it continues with the same creative team that is at all time lows on the book. What the hell is with this Nightwing team. Admit your failure and drop this Ric shit already. Nothing they do is going to be given a fair shake as long as they hold on to the Ric saga shit. How do they not get this. They know people hate it, sales are shit, there is no reason to be holding on to it. Let this Talon turn start fresh without the old man out of touch baggage that has buried this title.

Oh, and of course King's run ends and Dick is left in the lurch.

----------


## Frontier

I can't make up my mind whether a Talon is more ideal then Ric...

----------


## Badou

Oh God, I just remembered what JL thing you all were talking about. All of this just to tie into some stupid Year of the Villain nonsense, lol.

----------


## Drako

We already had seen the costume before.

----------


## Godlike13

> I can't make up my mind whether a Talon is more ideal then Ric...


Don't have to, its Ric as a Talon.

----------


## dietrich

> LoL, so that was him in the mascot outfit in JL. And of course this is Ric as a Talon, and of course it continues with the same creative team that is at all time lows on the book. What the hell is with this Nightwing team. Admit your failure and drop this Ric shit already. Nothing they do is going to be given a fair shake as long as they hold on to the Ric saga shit. How do they not get this. They know people hate it, sales are shit, there is no reason to be holding on to it. Let this Talon turn start fresh without the old man out of touch baggage that has buried this title.
> 
> Oh, and of course King's run ends and Dick is left in the lurch.


_mmmh sigh!_ At least Dick looks good in that 2nd cover. Also *whose metal tests his mettle* seriously.

----------


## Godlike13

This is frustrating me, cause i can see a real window here. Cancel Nightwing in December, ending it with him becoming the new Talon. Bring the new Talon into Batman for the next arc after King, creating time for them to get that situation sorted, leading into a new Talon series for early next year.

----------


## dietrich

> This is frustrating me, cause i can see a real window here. Cancel Nightwing in December, ending it with him becoming a Talon. Bring the new Talon into Batman for the next arc after King, creating time for them to get that situation sorted, leading into a new Talon series for early next year.


With Donna's reveal in the solicits DC seems determined to put Dick and his generation through the ringer. Which makes no sense to me especially in Dick's case with how many outside media projects he's currently headlining or featured in.

I mean I know Didio has a hate boner but he can't get rid of Dick when he's prominent and popular with the greater audience.

----------


## yohyoi

> We already had seen the costume before.


I know people hate it but I'm still buyying it for Talon Ric. I really want him to kill, Punisher-style. Dick won't kill. But Ric might shove that kunai to some criminal's eye hole. There is some novelty there. Turn Ric into what Dick could never be.

----------


## yohyoi

It will also be funny for Ric to out-Red Hood Jason. More violent; ready to kill criminal scums. More dangerous which Red Hood hasn't been after Flashpoint. More lone wolf, unlike Jason with his Outlaws. In short, a bloody anti-hero. It could be a reverse commentary on how much Jason is becoming an edgy Nightwing since the New 52.

----------


## BloodOps

I miss Dick interacting with the the DC Universe and being important

fuck all this

----------


## byrd156

> It will also be funny for Ric to out-Red Hood Jason. More violent; ready to kill criminal scums. More dangerous which Red Hood hasn't been after Flashpoint. More lone wolf, unlike Jason with his Outlaws. In short, a bloody anti-hero. It could be a reverse commentary on how much Jason is becoming an edgy Nightwing since the New 52.


How about do that in a different book with a different character? Like that sounds like a cool idea for someone like Vigilante. Not Dick Grayson.

----------


## yohyoi

> How about do that in a different book with a different character? Like that sounds like a cool idea for someone like Vigilante. Not Dick Grayson.


I separate Ric and Dick as two individual persons like clones. Dick is the best. Best not to link him with Ric. Anything Ric does or kills is outside my boi Dick G.

----------


## king81992

When will this Ric nonsense be over? Even with amnesia, Dick is getting the Didio special reserved for members of the Titans franchise.

----------


## OWL45

> I know people hate it but I'm still buyying it for Talon Ric. I really want him to kill, Punisher-style. Dick won't kill. But Ric might shove that kunai to some criminal's eye hole. There is some novelty there. Turn Ric into what Dick could never be.


Im with you. Im not saying be Punisher but wouldnt mind seeing the character explore new territory and have to deal with the fall out when he gets his memory back.

----------


## Godlike13

These things were said with Ric. They won't even have Talon kill the nobody Nightwings, you really think they are gonna have Ric do something. Besides Talons are assassins, not vigilantes. That they have him cleaning up the streets of Bluhaven shows right there they are not interested in him actually being a Talon or exploring new territory. Just like with Ric. 
This is just more Ric bullshit. Its a life preserver to try and keep this shit direction and its boring creators afloat. How in hell is he accepting his destiny of the Gray Son of Gotham cleaning up Bludhaven. That in itself doesn't make any damn sense. Oh, but these “professionals” think that if they just leave off the of Gotham from from the tag line readers won't remember that part. They'll remember Gray Son, but not the rest of it. But that is this Nightwing team. Don't actually make quality work that makes sense, just think your readers are stupid marks.

Anyway, i liked the new Titans ep. Bit of a tease though.

----------


## yohyoi

> I’m with you. I’m not saying be Punisher but wouldn’t mind seeing the character explore new territory and have to deal with the fall out when he gets his memory back.


Exactamundo!

----------


## Godlike13

Btw the costume could be worse i guess,

----------


## Rakiduam

> I know people hate it but I'm still buyying it for Talon Ric. I really want him to kill, Punisher-style. Dick won't kill. But Ric might shove that kunai to some criminal's eye hole. There is some novelty there. Turn Ric into what Dick could never be.


Except I read this comic for Dick not whoever this Ric character is supposed to be. Amnesic stories are a waste of time because it's basically a different character.

It is not new territory when it has done before, it is not developing the character when the character doesn't exist anymore.

A bad writer, mediocre plot and the character irrevocably insolated.

----------


## Badou

The problem is that they didn't do this thinking Ric becoming Talon was an interesting set up for a story or something well planned out. It was all in service of this dumb Year of the Villain event. They looked at the series and lazily figured out that making him Talon and accepting his "Gray Son destiny" was a way to extend the life of the awful Ric story and tie into the current DC event. There is no real creativity here and Ric won't do anything actually unique or interesting, like killing those fake Nightwing eyesores. It will be the most generic and lazy story like all of Ric has been. Even Godlike brought up a great point. Why are the Owls even bothering "cleaning up Bludhaven"? They only care about Gotham. It makes zero sense for them to give a shit about anything Bludhaven related. Just no actual thought has been put into any of this. 

Also we can add Alfred dying to the list of major events to happen while Dick was running around as Ric pissing away his time just like Roy dying, Damian having to watch Alfred die, Wally killing people and becoming suicidal, Donna turning into Deathbringer, and Gotham falling into complete chaos. Although none of this will be brought up when Dick actually regains his memories. No actual reflection at how he completely failed those closest to him and failed to be there when they needed him while doing this Ric garbage. No real growth or acceptance at how everything he did as Ric was a mistake. At most we will get a page or two of Dick being sad about Alfred and then it will probably be right back to more forgettable Bludhaven stories.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a28/1909/7a/c065120fa5d5.jpg[/IMG]

Brenton about Dick Grayson in Titans show.

----------


## Drako

Hey, at least he is Nightwing in the Titans TV series.
You can KINDA see the blue logo in this instagram stories by Minka Kelly.



https://twitter.com/DCUTitansBR/stat...98595491024896

----------


## Rac7d*

It’s finally happening 
Now we just have to hope this show can hold in for a third season
I think the shift to HBOmax might be inevitable

----------


## Restingvoice

> I can't make up my mind whether a Talon is more ideal then Ric...


It is because it's doing something different.

That's it though

Btw how are the sales? Getting lower than 22K yet?

----------


## Frontier

> Hey, at least he is Nightwing in the Titans TV series.
> You can KINDA see the blue logo in this instagram stories by Minka Kelly.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/DCUTitansBR/stat...98595491024896


Can't wait to see the suit  :Smile: . 



> It is because it's doing something different.


It's at a point where anything seems more ideal then Ric.

----------


## byrd156

> The problem is that they didn't do this thinking Ric becoming Talon was an interesting set up for a story or something well planned out. It was all in service of this dumb Year of the Villain event. They looked at the series and lazily figured out that making him Talon and accepting his "Gray Son destiny" was a way to extend the life of the awful Ric story and tie into the current DC event. There is no real creativity here and Ric won't do anything actually unique or interesting, like killing those fake Nightwing eyesores. It will be the most generic and lazy story like all of Ric has been. Even Godlike brought up a great point. Why are the Owls even bothering "cleaning up Bludhaven"? They only care about Gotham. It makes zero sense for them to give a shit about anything Bludhaven related. Just no actual thought has been put into any of this. 
> 
> Also we can add Alfred dying to the list of major events to happen while Dick was running around as Ric pissing away his time just like Roy dying, Damian having to watch Alfred die, Wally killing people and becoming suicidal, Donna turning into Deathbringer, and Gotham falling into complete chaos. Although none of this will be brought up when Dick actually regains his memories. No actual reflection at how he completely failed those closest to him and failed to be there when they needed him while doing this Ric garbage. No real growth or acceptance at how everything he did as Ric was a mistake. At most we will get a page or two of Dick being sad about Alfred and then it will probably be right back to more forgettable Bludhaven stories.


It's like they are avoiding any and all good story opportunities, then just going for what's convenient.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The problem is that they didn't do this thinking Ric becoming Talon was an interesting set up for a story or something well planned out. It was all in service of this dumb Year of the Villain event. They looked at the series and lazily figured out that making him Talon and accepting his "Gray Son destiny" was a way to extend the life of the awful Ric story and tie into the current DC event. There is no real creativity here and Ric won't do anything actually unique or interesting, like killing those fake Nightwing eyesores. It will be the most generic and lazy story like all of Ric has been. Even Godlike brought up a great point. Why are the Owls even bothering "cleaning up Bludhaven"? They only care about Gotham. It makes zero sense for them to give a shit about anything Bludhaven related. Just no actual thought has been put into any of this. 
> 
> Also we can add Alfred dying to the list of major events to happen while Dick was running around as Ric pissing away his time just like Roy dying, Damian having to watch Alfred die, Wally killing people and becoming suicidal, Donna turning into Deathbringer, and Gotham falling into complete chaos. Although none of this will be brought up when Dick actually regains his memories. No actual reflection at how he completely failed those closest to him and failed to be there when they needed him while doing this Ric garbage. No real growth or acceptance at how everything he did as Ric was a mistake. At most we will get a page or two of Dick being sad about Alfred and then it will probably be right back to more forgettable Bludhaven stories.


Also add to the fact that Bruce (and Carter Hall) was directly responsible for the universe nearly ending in Metal, which basically led into the universe being danger again in No Justice, the multiverse being in danger during all this Doom War and Year of the Villain stuff, and all the ways that trickles down in Year of the Villain and Hell Arisen, i.e. William Cobb coming after Bludhaven to get Ric because of it.

Dick is going to come back to all of this and have nothing to say about it because that's just how lame DC is.

Anyways, I'll still take Ric as Talon over Ric as... Ric. None of it is good, especially when they've flopped on even giving him an interesting design as a Talon. With Year of the Villain and the Doom War leading into next year, and Hell Arisen going until March at least, it's looking like we'll have this Talon story going into Dick's 80th Anniversary and that's just... sad, really.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So I've jumped into Batman and Red Hood reading, figured I should add Nightwing to the mix as well!! Are the New 52 paperbacks worth starting with? Or just start with Rebirth?





> With Donna's reveal in the solicits DC seems determined to put Dick and his generation through the ringer. Which makes no sense to me especially in Dick's case with how many outside media projects he's currently headlining or featured in.
> 
> I mean I know Didio has a hate boner but he can't get rid of Dick when he's prominent and popular with the greater audience.


They can't kill him, the most they can do it make him rot

Its more likely as a villiain batgirl and bruce will go after him and thus Dick can return

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d36/1909/09/d7866ae8f77c.png[/IMG]

https://bekkodraws.tumblr.com/post/1...from-twitter-d

Dick and Babs


[IMG]https://a.***********/a08/1909/d6/8e18f8988821.png[/IMG]

https://voidmash.tumblr.com/post/187...40/coffee-runs

Dick and Raven Titans show

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d36/1909/09/d7866ae8f77c.png[/IMG]
> 
> https://bekkodraws.tumblr.com/post/1...from-twitter-d
> 
> Dick and Babs


I like everything about this except the Burnside costume.

----------


## Celgress

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d36/1909/09/d7866ae8f77c.png[/IMG]
> 
> https://bekkodraws.tumblr.com/post/1...from-twitter-d
> 
> Dick and Babs...


Aw, how sweet.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Btw how are the sales? Getting lower than 22K yet?


Not yet. 22,711 for August according to ICv2.

----------


## Godlike13

So much for YotV or Talon improving things. How many more issue will Jurgans continue to do just as much of what the covers already tell us. Maybe when Nightwing gets as low as his other books they’ll start to realize that they might want to start kicking things into gear here.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

The next Titans episode already looks pretty good, can't wait to see more of Dick and his kids.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So I've jumped into Batman and Red Hood reading, figured I should add Nightwing to the mix as well!! Are the New 52 paperbacks worth starting with? Or just start with Rebirth?





> The next Titans episode already looks pretty good, can't wait to see more of Dick and his kids.



I am ready for some flashbacks I want dick his young adult friends Titans getting into hijinks

----------


## Jackalope89

Maybe its just out of context, but rather than "shenanigans", that page came out more concerning than anything. And for a variety of reasons.

----------


## byrd156

> I am ready for some flashbacks I want dick his young adult friends Titans getting into hijinks


That's rape, not hijinks.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> Maybe its just out of context, but rather than "shenanigans", that page came out more concerning than anything. And for a variety of reasons.


Sexual assault, rape, victim-blaming, and slut-shaming?  Yeah, that page manages to fit in a lot.  I really cannot see them doing that on the TV series, or at least I hope not.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's rape, not hijinks.


that was tarantula

----------


## Pohzee

> that was tarantula


He was also raped in NTT

----------


## byrd156

> that was tarantula


It was both. Sex under false pretenses is also rape.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He was also raped in NTT


mrs Liu

----------


## Restingvoice

Attachment 87157

Batons!

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a13/1909/96/11f37eb54285.png[/IMG]

https://jarrulusx.tumblr.com/post/18...ssion-for-mary

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c40/1909/8e/c21440f1a3a0.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a22/1909/74/d0037d36c0ba.png[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b31/1909/74/6595f017c32f.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a26/1909/09/95e5ef81cfbb.png[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d33/1909/39/104cf36e6cc0.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://b.***********/b32/1909/95/4b80aa3bd01d.png[/IMG]

----------


## Rac7d*

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d33/1909/39/104cf36e6cc0.png[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]https://b.***********/b32/1909/95/4b80aa3bd01d.png[/IMG]


Garth better not be dead just like in atlantis

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a13/1909/96/11f37eb54285.png[/IMG]
> 
> https://jarrulusx.tumblr.com/post/18...ssion-for-mary


Nice to see a good Dick/Kori piece. 



> Garth better not be dead just like in atlantis


He survived HiC only to die on _Titans_...

----------


## Jackalope89

> Nice to see a good Dick/Kori piece. 
> 
> He survived HiC only to die on _Titans_...


I think of it as a trade off. Most of the OG Titans have now been killed off or screwed over in the Titans, except for Garth and Lilith Clay (the latter of whom seems to be lying low, thankfully). Whereas in the show, its the other way around (though only the "killed off" part).

----------


## Pohzee

Better Garth than anyone else.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Better Garth than anyone else.


How can you say that?   Is gnarrk okay? What about Malcom and karen

----------


## byrd156

> Better Garth than anyone else.


Why not just use Tula? She dies anyway and it would make sense why it would break up the team. Garth leaves and could possibly come back. Killing garth feels like a waste.

----------


## Pohzee

Not a waste of much. If they need an Atlantean, they can bring in the cool one.

----------


## Frontier

> Not a waste of much. If they need an Atlantean, they can bring in the cool one.


Dolphin  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## byrd156

> Dolphin ?


I thought she was a different underwater race or whatever.

----------


## Frontier

> I thought she was a different underwater race or whatever.


I think she's actually a human mutated into a fish-person, but my comment was made in jest  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Godlike13

If one were to eat Garth, would that be cannibalism?

----------


## Rac7d*

> If one were to eat Garth, would that be cannibalism?


Do Pokemon trainers eat their Pokémon?

----------


## Ascended

> If one were to eat Garth, would that be cannibalism?


I believe it would be, yes. He's Atlantean, but people from Atlantis are still human. 

More or less.

The real question is if you serve Garth with duck sauce or if he's more of a "good with tarter sauce" flavor.

----------


## Drako

Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott

----------


## Pohzee

That’s beautiful

----------


## Frontier

> Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott


Absolutely gorgeous.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott


That's even cooler in color.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott


Now thats Americas ass

----------


## K. Jones

She makes the 1990s Mirage costume look way better than it deserves to.

I wish there was room here for the Young Justice costume.

----------


## Rac7d*

He’s trending on twitter 

DC freakin wake up

----------


## Frontier

First look at the Nightwing suit on _Titans_.

----------


## yohyoi

DAE like Dick's butt?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

> First look at the Nightwing suit on _Titans_.


I've said this before I think, but I don't think Dick's Nightwing suit translates well into live action. It works in the comics because it is simple and clean, but in live action that simpleness makes it difficult. Since it is just a guy in mainly black clothes with a small blue design on it.

----------


## Mr. White

> Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott


Really enjoy these character images Scott does. 

A bit bittersweet. A reminder of the true "good old days" (at least for the *most* part).

----------


## Robanker

Gotta respect Nicola Scott, she did a great set of these for the Trinity, but between this and that one issue of Secret Six Dick appeared in, you know she's got it in her contract somewhere that she gets to do an ass shot of him at some point. I gotta respect it.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Great piece of work.

----------


## Restingvoice

lol the original pencil in her website is titled "Temptation" and already sold out.

----------


## Avi

> I've said this before I think, but I don't think Dick's Nightwing suit translates well into live action. It works in the comics because it is simple and clean, but in live action that simpleness makes it difficult. Since it is just a guy in mainly black clothes with a small blue design on it.


The suit does seem kind of strange but that might just be the picture? I hope so at least. 

Technically ismhawk showed a long time ago that it's not impossible to do a good rl costume design.

----------


## Frontier

> I've said this before I think, but I don't think Dick's Nightwing suit translates well into live action. It works in the comics because it is simple and clean, but in live action that simpleness makes it difficult. Since it is just a guy in mainly black clothes with a small blue design on it.


Maybe that's why the blue pops off so well  :Smile: ?

----------


## Master Man

As someone who isn't even a fan of the black/blue costume in the comics, I think (from what I can see) the Titans suit looks fine.

ps. Discowl still the best

----------


## Rac7d*

> The suit does seem kind of strange but that might just be the picture? I hope so at least. 
> 
> Technically ismhawk showed a long time ago that it's not impossible to do a good rl costume design.


its not a focused image, just a quick shot with the photgrpaher hoped t not be caught

but the buzz on it online, gives me so much Hope fan still do love Nightwing and Dick Grayson their all just waiting for him to return. DC are such fools
thats why it is important to watch the show

----------


## Pohzee

> As someone who isn't even a fan of the black/blue costume in the comics, I think (from what I can see) the Titans suit looks fine.
> 
> ps. Discowl still the best


Whoa that is a nuclear hot take

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott


Good piece but its missing Dick Grayson's Batman. I LOVE Batman and Robin by Grant Morrison.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Another picture leaked for the front side. It looks like Nightwing's first N52 suit but blue and black instead of red and black and no spike gauntlets.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> Another picture leaked for the front side. It looks like Nightwing's first N52 suit but blue and black instead of red and black and no spike gauntlets.


Blue is Nightwing's color. Never liked the change to red in The New 52.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Blue is Nightwing's color. Never liked the change to red in The New 52.


I started Nightwing when he was red so it always holds a special place for me. The live action suit looks great. I don't think a movie could do it any better.

----------


## HsssH

How is the material collected in The Untouchable trade?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Another picture leaked for the front side. It looks like Nightwing's first N52 suit but blue and black instead of red and black and no spike gauntlets.


so like the Batman  Hush movie

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> How is the material collected in The Untouchable trade?


Great standalone arc.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> so like the Batman  Hush movie



But no finger stripes

----------


## Rac7d*

> But no finger stripes


thats fine
DCUniverse has done a great job at getting everyone hyped for him

----------


## Drako

> But no finger stripes


I don't know about the finger stripes, but he has stripes in his arms, looks like.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE3fRhyX...jpg&name=large

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Good piece but its missing Dick Grayson's Batman. I LOVE Batman and Robin by Grant Morrison.


I do too. I wanted at least another year of Dick and Damian. But I can get the focus on Robin/Nightwing here.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> I don't know about the finger stripes, but he has stripes in his arms, looks like.
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE3fRhyX...jpg&name=large


oh wow the angle on reddit didnt show this. just the big blue bird on his chest.

So this is more like N52 Suit 2.0, just not finger stripes.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> How is the material collected in The Untouchable trade?


It's the best Nightwing story written since Tomasi's run. It also includes two filler issues that are both fun, especially #42.

----------


## Godlike13

Humphries arc?

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Humphries arc?


yep. wish humphries was allowed to stay on atleast until 50. He came in with a plan and it didn't feel like a rip off of the rebirth GA arc.

----------


## Godlike13

I didn’t see much of a plan beyond the Judge. 

Not that his arc was bad. I just don’t see it as a benchmark of any sort. He didn’t really seem to have anything interesting for Dick or his character, besides the whole personal trainer stuff which was oddly thrown in and honestly rather lame.

----------


## Pohzee

> I didn’t see much of a plan beyond the Judge.


I guess Kid Delicious or Babe Ruthless, or whatever it was that was so forgettable I couldn’t even tell you their name.

----------


## Godlike13

New Titans ep was interesting. I’m digging Deathstroke, and I’m a sucker for whenever Dick and Donna have a talk.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> New Titans ep was interesting. I’m digging Deathstroke, and I’m a sucker for whenever Dick and Donna have a talk.


This show keeps getting better and better with every ep this season. Season 1 was a trip but this season has been so much more smoother.The cast is big but everyone is being represented well.

It's incredible to see the contrast between recent Titans comics and the tv series.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I guess Kid Delicious or Babe Ruthless, or whatever it was that was so forgettable I couldn’t even tell you their name.


Kid Delicious is the stripper, and I only remember him because it leads to Dick stripping in a bachelorette party. I don't remember Babe Ruthless.

The shark. Guppy. He's the best character.

The Judge is fine. It's Dick I'm not fine because he's doing the "I have to do this alone" and "This is all my fault" thing... why, again? Especially when Bruce, poster boy for "I have to do this alone" actually called him offering help

----------


## Pohzee

https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...963001345?s=21



What are the odds he has Bruce’s face?

----------


## Restingvoice

> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...963001345?s=21
> 
> 
> 
> What are the odds he has Bruce’s face?


Hmm... 50:50

During the time Batman invited the family to arrest Bane, he cares enough to know the status quo of Red Hood and Nightwing and giving them the right voice (I love the way he wrote Jason threatening to shove a crowbar to Batman's ass) 

On the other hand he doesn't really have the right voice for Damian in #76-77 and the Wedding Prelude has been a while... I don't know what Seeley's doing these days and I don't know if there's something that can happen in the other dimension that can revert Hush's face... also, since it _has_ been a while, months, there's time for Hush to find a way back to Gotham and change his face to Bruce again. 

You know with Dick still amnesia, this is actually a right time if they want to continue that story of Hush wishing to be Bruce's best friend by offering to be Dick Grayson, but I'm not gonna hope.

----------


## Jackalope89

> This show keeps getting better and better with every ep this season. Season 1 was a trip but this season has been so much more smoother.The cast is big but everyone is being represented well.
> 
> It's incredible to see the contrast between recent Titans comics and the tv series.


Cast is big, but not bloated (at least it doesn't feel like it). I am curious about the 4 "kids" of the group so far, and how Titans will do their stories going forward.

And while brief, kind of happy my home state got a little call out in episode 2 (Wyoming). Brief though it was, it was something. And while unfortunate, meth is kind of a problem here. So even that part wasn't wrong.

----------


## Rac7d*

Is rose playing a con game I can’t tell
Dick does always train her tho

----------


## CTTT

Has anyone in the Bat family commented on Dicks amnesia?  Including Bruce himself?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Has anyone in the Bat family commented on Dicks amnesia?  Including Bruce himself?


About a year ago when it all started

----------


## Pohzee

> Has anyone in the Bat family commented on Dicks amnesia?  Including Bruce himself?


It was mentioned in the Fall and the Fallen.

----------


## yohyoi

When someone throws some smack on Dick G.

Me: "Bruh, you are wrong and here's why..."

Also need to watch Titans but I'm waiting for the last episodes so that I will only sub for a month.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick Grayson Through The Years by Nicola Scott


This is a masterpiece. Really great piece.

Dick Grayson really is comic's sexiest character no competition. It was also super cool to see this trending. Respect.

----------


## Rac7d*

> When someone throws some smack on Dick G.
> 
> Me: "Bruh, you are wrong and here's why..."
> 
> Also need to watch Titans but I'm waiting for the last episodes so that I will only sub for a month.


A free trial rush huh?   Good luck not getting spoiled

----------


## Ansa

> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...963001345?s=21
> 
> 
> 
> What are the odds he has Bruces face?


I have no idea what this is about and I don't care, since I'm too busy laughing at Bruce's ears.

----------


## yohyoi

> A free trial rush huh?   Good luck not getting spoiled


Low at cash at the moment so I will binge it at the last month. I'm no Bruce Wayne  :Frown:

----------


## Darkcrusade25

King said on twitter that he wish he couldve brought Dick for the ending but he couldn't.

Hope y'all ready for year 2 of Ric.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> King said on twitter that he wish he couldve brought Dick for the ending but he couldn't.
> 
> Hope y'all ready for year 2 of Ric.


I get why King couldn't bring him back.

I'm not coming back until this is over.

----------


## Drako

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/09...iv-batman-run/

Finally

----------


## Pohzee

So DC wouldn't let King write Dick so that they could bring him back during Tynions filler run? f*ck me

----------


## Rakiduam

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/09...iv-batman-run/
> 
> Finally


On the one hand, yeah, on the othe,r Batman and Robin eternal was a massive disappointment.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I actually haven't liked King's Nightwing in his last two appearances in Batman either so I'd rather see Tynion bring him back. He'll probably get the characterization wrong, but so would King. At least Tynion would pretend to care about the character so he doesn't anger fans. I mean, his story "The Precedent" for DC #1000 was pretty nice largely because he was the one writer in the book that actually valued the legacy of Robin and Dick Grayson. Haven't seen King have a lot of respect for any character except Selina and Bane lately, especially with how he treated everyone in HiC.

Honestly not excited about this either way since we're ultimately just getting Dick back to where he was beforehand, and everyone involved with taking Dick away is still at DC in more or less the same roles as they were when they did it.

----------


## DragonPiece

> So DC wouldn't let King write Dick so that they could bring him back during Tynions filler run? f*ck me


is it really filler if something major like this is happening? your post makes no sense.

----------


## Godlike13

I remain skeptical. And at this point just bringing proper Nightwing back is not going to be enough.

----------


## Badou

> is it really filler if something major like this is happening? your post makes no sense.


I don't think this will be a large part of Tynion's run. I believe Tynion was quoted saying he wanted to tell solo Batman stories mostly.

----------


## Pohzee

> is it really filler if something major like this is happening? your post makes no sense.


He's filling the gap between 86-100 and he will be following both ramifications from Kings run as well as Justice League. This isn't going to be a run of the ages. It'll be workman needed to be told stories.




> I remain skeptical. And at this point just bringing proper Nightwing back is not going to be enough.


Yeah I had finally reached that point before the Ric fiasco happened, but I'm not going to forget the lesson. I will not buy any mediocre stories from mediocre creators going nowhere.

And I get the feeling we will be back to the same crap. "Hey we undid the very bad thing we did, so now it's no longer flaming garbage. It's less than good but its better so get excited!"

----------


## nightbird

One spoiler clip from new episode of Titans show, but I really liked how they showcased a bit of Dick’s fighting style here. 
He also made Jason kiss the floor in just two seconds, when he tried to attack him by using some defensive fighting techniques. 
So in some ways they actually getting his fighting style better this season. It’s good too see that Titans in both seasons established that Dick is a powerhouse when it comes to martial arts.

----------


## Ascended

So Dick doesnt even get to return in his own book? Yeah, that tracks. 

I mean, at least it looks like we might get a proper Nightwing back, which will be a huge improvement over what we have now. But it seems clear DC's priorities havent changed a gods damn bit. So even though we'll have proper Dick.....we're still going to be screwed.

And gods damn me too, because that first issue of Nightwing where Nightwing's actually back and in costume? I'll probably buy it....just on the outside chance DC unintentionally does something good for once.

----------


## Pohzee

We better get a fresh new creative team. But even still we're going to be stuck with the stench of Ric because they'll have to address it. I really wouldn't be offended if they ignored it and never mentioned it again.

----------


## Frontier

At this point, if it gets rid of Ric, I'm all for it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Ah. His 80th Anniversary. If they're not bringing him back during Bane climax, this is what they will do. I guess I have to be thankful they don't wait until the company-wide timeline realignment or until Wally's back from versetrotting

----------


## Godlike13

> So Dick doesnt even get to return in his own book? Yeah, that tracks.


It shouldn’t be done in his books at this point, it’s sale’s are poops and it’s creators and their stories have been even stinkier poops. Do it somewhere with a readership.




> We better get a fresh new creative team. But even still we're going to be stuck with the stench of Ric because they'll have to address it. I really wouldn't be offended if they ignored it and never mentioned it again.


We should, but I think DC is having trouble recruiting creators. Especially the Bat office. Look at the new team they got for Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

Also yeah I support the healing doesn't happen in Nightwing book because it's started in Batman book. They started it they better fix it.

Also while I'm at it, I don't mind a new number #1

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

I thought Brenton Twaites/Dick Grayson was one of several weak links in season 1 but while think Titans is still far from a perfect show, he's definitely the 'most improved' aspect of season 2. Making him like 20 percent less brooding/psychopathic helped quite a bit. Looking forward to seeing him as Nightwing.

----------


## yohyoi

I can't wait for the new Nightwing costume. We had a million new Grayson costumes this year, but Nightwing is a classic. Crossing fingers for an epic redesign.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

Somebody in the Bleeding Cool thread is claiming that DC didn't say it would happen in the Batman book. Whatever, I just want this Ric thing over.

----------


## Ansa

> I don't think this will be a large part of Tynion's run. I believe Tynion was quoted saying he wanted to tell solo Batman stories mostly.


I know a lot of fans want the solo Batman book to focus on Batman alone, but Detective is doing the same thing now and I'm more a fan of the batfamily than of Bruce. Bruce alone bores me.

----------


## L.H.

> It shouldn’t be done in his books at this point, it’s sale’s are poops and it’s creators and their stories have been even stinkier poops. Do it somewhere with a readership.
> 
> 
> 
> We should, but I think DC is having trouble recruiting creators. Especially the Bat office. Look at the new team they got for Batman.


Well, Priest wanted to write Nightwing, and DC said no. Snyder tweeted he wanted to write a Nightwing arc too. So it's not DC having trouble, they just don't want to give Dick a proper creative team

----------


## DragonPiece

> He's filling the gap between 86-100 and he will be following both ramifications from Kings run as well as Justice League. This isn't going to be a run of the ages. It'll be workman needed to be told stories.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I had finally reached that point before the Ric fiasco happened, but I'm not going to forget the lesson. I will not buy any mediocre stories from mediocre creators going nowhere.
> 
> And I get the feeling we will be back to the same crap. "Hey we undid the very bad thing we did, so now it's no longer flaming garbage. It's less than good but its better so get excited!"


Regardless how long his run is or how much of a role Nightwing plays, the book is in continuity and the stories matter just mas much as snyder and king's did. I don't think it's fair to call this filler. Especially since the 15 issue thing is a rumor.

----------


## Restingvoice

You know what. You know what. No. I'm not gonna be thankful for someone stopping a stupid story that shouldn't even have to happen in the first place. I'm not thanking anyone for thinking that interrupting two books because its main character should serve a main character of another book is a good idea. Definitely not thanking anyone for not putting effort, or preventing effort to elevate a character that's older than my parents but still popular.

I'm not gonna freaking lower my standard. I don't need this. DC, the producer who wants money, needs me. They're the one who's losing money, not me. There's a lot of other entertainment out there, and I'm enjoying them, so I'm gonna continue what I'm doing the past years, dropping by like a stray cat and see if anything interesting when I'm curious, and if there's nothing, I'm moving on to another house and bother the guys over there, maybe pooping on the patio a little.

By the way I'm going to be on this mood for a while. Someone said once that CBR stands for Cry Bitch Rant, and I'm gonna make full use of it.

----------


## Godlike13

Venting is the true purpose of this thread  :Wink:

----------


## Fergus

Can i have a source for Nightwing coming back plz. Do we know when exactly?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Can i have a source for Nightwing coming back plz. Do we know when exactly?


https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/09/21/batman-new-team-bringing-back-nightwing/


Exactly when no, but my guess is right after the Talon arc or April 2020 right on Dick Grayson 80th anniversary... which... is he gonna become Talon next month? That will fit 6 issues before April. If I'm DC that's how I'm gonna do it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/09/21/batman-new-team-bringing-back-nightwing/
> 
> 
> Exactly when no, but my guess is right after the Talon arc or April 2020 right on Dick Grayson 80th anniversary... which... is he gonna become Talon next month? That will fit 6 issues before April. If I'm DC that's how I'm gonna do it.


I belive in December by solicits
Know the pacing has been awful 10 pages to get across town
I miss his double Shipping

----------


## Restingvoice

> I belive in December by solicits
> Know the pacing has been awful 10 pages to get across town
> I miss his double Shipping


Hmm… six issues later then. May? So June? 
How many issues are the collective Talon story? Starting from when Cobb started appearing?

----------


## Restingvoice

From King's Twitter

@A_Flying_Wonder: Is Dick getting his memories back something that has to happen in your run as part of the ongoing Batman vs Bane conclusion, or is that solely in the hands of the Nightwing team? 

Tom King: All that is out of my hands. Wish I could’ve done more Dick work here at the end. 

*Deep breath* 

Tracking down who's responsible for what in the great Ric Grayson saga is like detective work in itself. Has there ever been a character that change hands more often in one year than him?

King shot him
Percy created Ric 
Lobdell insisted Ric continues
Editorial allowed it
Jurgens biding time
Someone wanted him to be Talon
Someone wanted him to only be back next year
Tynion or maybe whoever's bringing him back

I have to divide my annoyance to at least five people!

----------


## dietrich

> From King's Twitter
> 
> @A_Flying_Wonder: Is Dick getting his memories back something that has to happen in your run as part of the ongoing Batman vs Bane conclusion, or is that solely in the hands of the Nightwing team? 
> 
> Tom King: All that is out of my hands. Wish I could’ve done more Dick work here at the end. 
> 
> *Deep breath* 
> 
> Tracking down who's responsible for what in the great Ric Grayson saga is like detective work in itself. Has there ever been a character that change hands more often in one year than him?
> ...



Seems to me the ones culpable are: 

King who shot him and whose story needed Dick to be benched until at least BatCat were ready to take back the city. Lobdell might have campaigned but Dick would have still been benched right now even if he hadn't because King's story needs him to be.

Editorial for letting this go on knowing fans were unhappy. Knowing that Ric wasn't the only way to keep him unavailable. Get creative. No respecting the character enough to demand this development be used to explore the character deeper. Really get to the heart of the character. Allowing storylines that basically mock the character like Ric becoming a side kick to a bunch of randos after saying he didn't want to be a hero.

It could have been handled better.

Whoever introduced Ric working for the nightwings

----------


## Restingvoice

> Seems to me the ones culpable are: 
> 
> King who shot him and whose story needed Dick to be benched until at least BatCat were ready to take back the city. Lobdell might have campaigned but Dick would have still been benched right now even if he hadn't because King's story needs him to be.
> 
> Editorial for letting this go on knowing fans were unhappy. Knowing that Ric wasn't the only way to keep him unavailable. Get creative. No respecting the character enough to demand this development be used to explore the character deeper. Really get to the heart of the character. Allowing storylines that basically mock the character like Ric becoming a side kick to a bunch of randos after saying he didn't want to be a hero.
> 
> It could have been handled better.
> 
> Whoever introduced Ric working for the nightwings


Oh right I didn't mention it in the list. Editorial at first wasn't convinced that Ric will last long. They thought it'll be three issues top, but then Lobdell want to explore it, so they allow it.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> One spoiler clip from new episode of Titans show, but I really liked how they showcased a bit of Dicks fighting style here. 
> He also made Jason kiss the floor in just two seconds, when he tried to attack him by using some defensive fighting techniques. 
> So in some ways they actually getting his fighting style better this season. Its good too see that Titans in both seasons established that Dick is a powerhouse when it comes to martial arts.


I noticed this about the show, it's one of the few places we actually get to see Dick respected as a fighter (since we rarely see Dick do much fighting on screen in YJO). Last time I felt that was Nightwing #24 of Seeley's run.

----------


## dietrich

> Oh right I didn't mention it in the list. Editorial at first wasn't convinced that Ric will last long. They thought it'll be three issues top, but then Lobdell want to explore it, so they allow it.


I find that hard to believe since it contradicts King's whole Tim becoming Nightwing and helping Dick. Surely that needs more than 3 issues not to mention that King's story would be slightly different if Dick was a factor. For a start it's much more difficult to justify the beach issues had Batman had an ally of Dick's level and expertise around to intercept the venom for him for example

----------


## Arsenal

> I find that hard to believe since it contradicts King's whole Tim becoming Nightwing and helping Dick. Surely that needs more than 3 issues not to mention that King's story would be slightly different if Dick was a factor. For a start it's much more difficult to justify the beach issues had Batman had an ally of Dick's level and expertise around to intercept the venom for him for example


Nah, the whole “we’re the message” thing doesn’t work if it comes from Dick (or any of the half a dozen people Bruce has on speed dial that are equally as capable as handling the operation)

If anything, Dick’s presence would make it easier to justify them since they could frame it as Dick back in Gotham holding it down and getting everybody prepared while Bruce gets his shit together.

----------


## dietrich

> Nah, the whole “we’re the message” thing doesn’t work if it comes from Dick (or any of the half a dozen people Bruce has on speed dial that are equally as capable as handling the operation)
> 
> If anything, Dick’s presence would make it easier to justify them since they could frame it as Dick back in Gotham holding it down and getting everybody prepared while Bruce gets his shit together.


You make a very good point.

----------


## Pohzee

> I find that hard to believe since it contradicts King's whole Tim becoming Nightwing and helping Dick. Surely that needs more than 3 issues not to mention that King's story would be slightly different if Dick was a factor. For a start it's much more difficult to justify the beach issues had Batman had an ally of Dick's level and expertise around to intercept the venom for him for example


Tim Nightwing was never the plan. That was King talking about how he would have handled it if it was his responsibility. But it was always out of his hands.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I find that hard to believe since it contradicts King's whole Tim becoming Nightwing and helping Dick. Surely that needs more than 3 issues not to mention that King's story would be slightly different if Dick was a factor. For a start it's much more difficult to justify the beach issues had Batman had an ally of Dick's level and expertise around to intercept the venom for him for example


The one who said DC editorial didn't believe in Ric was Lobdell himself who in the same interview said it was him who want to explore Ric. 

So first King prepared two options. Cure his wound with Zatanna if DC allow the story to be short or make Tim Nightwing if DC want Dick incapacitated longer, but then of course later Bendis is using Tim so he can't use that one anyway.

At this point King didn't know what DC will allow, and I don't think he even came up with the amnesia idea either because Ben Percy was preparing the vertigo story.

At this point they're just thinking Dick will be incapacitated but there's no Ric yet, and they didn't know how long.

Then whoever at DC decided on amnesia, so Percy changed the story and created Ric, and after they saw Ric, Bat editor(s) believed it won't last long, but then Lobdell came, and he convinced them to make it last longer.

----------


## Katana500

> Nah, the whole “we’re the message” thing doesn’t work if it comes from Dick (or any of the half a dozen people Bruce has on speed dial that are equally as capable as handling the operation)
> 
> If anything, Dick’s presence would make it easier to justify them since they could frame it as Dick back in Gotham holding it down and getting everybody prepared while Bruce gets his shit together.


I guess if Dick was still in the picture. It could have been justified with Bruce being anxious and not wanting to risk him again especially if he was suffering Vertigo as was the original plan. So stuff probably wouldn't be all that different.

----------


## nightbird

> I noticed this about the show, it's one of the few places we actually get to see Dick respected as a fighter (since we rarely see Dick do much fighting on screen in YJO). Last time I felt that was Nightwing #24 of Seeley's run.


Titans as whole in my opinion handled all aspects about Dick’s training good. While comics, games and DCU animation loves to sh*t on him regularly. And God forbid for Dick to win any fight and to be useful and respected in DCU animation.

----------


## Schumiac

In the BleedingCool news about Nightwing's return someone actually posted this comment:




> No No No.
> I was there and Dan Didio said they're working on bringing Dick back cause they got big plans for next year and need him for that. They said nothing about him being a part of Tynion's Batman. Tynion only mentioned Lucius Fox specifically as a character he intends to use.


Feels almost surreal that Didio would want Dick involved in their big plans. Except maybe the big plans involve killing him off and sending Bruce in a rage, because that is original.Or he and some of the other Titans get captured by the big bad and it is very stressful for the JL big leaguers.... *rolleyes*

----------


## Badou

> The one who said DC editorial didn't believe in Ric was Lobdell himself who in the same interview said it was him who want to explore Ric. 
> 
> So first King prepared two options. Cure his wound with Zatanna if DC allow the story to be short or make Tim Nightwing if DC want Dick incapacitated longer, but then of course later Bendis is using Tim so he can't use that one anyway.
> 
> At this point King didn't know what DC will allow, and I don't think he even came up with the amnesia idea either because Ben Percy was preparing the vertigo story.
> 
> At this point they're just thinking Dick will be incapacitated but there's no Ric yet, and they didn't know how long.
> 
> Then whoever at DC decided on amnesia, so Percy changed the story and created Ric, and after they saw Ric, Bat editor(s) believed it won't last long, but then Lobdell came, and he convinced them to make it last longer.


King didn't prepare anything for after he shot Dick. He only said that he told editorial that he was going to shoot Dick regardless if they cared or not and what they did afterwards with Dick was up to them. King had no involvement in it. He told them if they didn't want to deal with it then they could just have Zatanna fix Dick in Nightwing with a spell, or they could follow up on it. King didn't care since whatever they did it would have zero effect on King's own plans in Batman. 

Also the idea with Tim taking over as Nightwing was never an actual pitch made by King. It was just something he said would be interesting in a podcast, but it was never something he actually planned out or told editorial about. The only thing that we had evidence of was that Percy planned on giving Dick vertigo and was going to continue his Dark Web story before all that got scrapped. My guess is it got scrapped because they needed Dick out of the way for King's Batman story and just giving him vertigo wasn't enough, so they upped it to amnesia as a way to write him out of all the Batman books while King's story was going on.

----------


## Restingvoice

> King didn't prepare anything for after he shot Dick. He only said that he told editorial that he was going to shoot Dick regardless if they cared or not and what they did afterwards with Dick was up to them. King had no involvement in it. He told them if they didn't want to deal with it then they could just have Zatanna fix Dick in Nightwing with a spell, or they could follow up on it. King didn't care since whatever they did it would have zero effect on King's own plans in Batman. 
> 
> Also the idea with Tim taking over as Nightwing was never an actual pitch made by King. It was just something he said would be interesting in a podcast, but it was never something he actually planned out or told editorial about. The only thing that we had evidence of was that Percy planned on giving Dick vertigo and was going to continue his Dark Web story before all that got scrapped. My guess is it got scrapped because they needed Dick out of the way for King's Batman story and just giving him vertigo wasn't enough, so they upped it to amnesia as a way to write him out of all the Batman books while King's story was going on.


Ah ok

The way King's story's been written, even if Dick is fine after a short story arc and can go back to Gotham, he's not gonna do much and end up staring in disbelief as Batman punched Tim like the others, and then joining Tim and Damian staring helplessly at City of Bane. 

Between the shooting and the cavalry call, he only need to drop one panel saying Bruce banned Nightwing from Gotham since he doesn't want him to get shot again. That's about as much effort as everyone that's not a Nightwing book in explaining his absence. 

So from where I'm looking, jury's still out on whose idea exactly was the amnesia since by the sound of it, King didn't really care if it's amnesia or vertigo as long as Dick gets shot and Bruce was traumatized. Then the rest continue as I mentioned.

----------


## Pohzee

I'm pretty sure if Dick was around, he would've filled the role Tim did. He'd speak for the family during the Fall and the Fallen, then get punched in the face. Then he'd be the voice of caution against Damian in City of Bane.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm pretty sure if Dick was around, he would've filled the role Tim did. He'd speak for the family during the Fall and the Fallen, then get punched in the face. Then he'd be the voice of caution against Damian in City of Bane.


I think it's still gonna be Tim. It doesn't make much sense if he punch him after all that rampage against KGBeast, and it's gonna lessen the impact and meaning of that revenge story.  

The City of Bane part, yes.

----------


## byrd156

> Venting is the true purpose of this thread


Better that it happens here.

----------


## byrd156

> King didn't prepare anything for after he shot Dick. He only said that he told editorial that he was going to shoot Dick regardless if they cared or not and what they did afterwards with Dick was up to them. King had no involvement in it. He told them if they didn't want to deal with it then they could just have Zatanna fix Dick in Nightwing with a spell, or they could follow up on it. King didn't care since whatever they did it would have zero effect on King's own plans in Batman. 
> 
> Also the idea with Tim taking over as Nightwing was never an actual pitch made by King. It was just something he said would be interesting in a podcast, but it was never something he actually planned out or told editorial about. The only thing that we had evidence of was that Percy planned on giving Dick vertigo and was going to continue his Dark Web story before all that got scrapped. My guess is it got scrapped because they needed Dick out of the way for King's Batman story and just giving him vertigo wasn't enough, so they upped it to amnesia as a way to write him out of all the Batman books while King's story was going on.


Imagine how cool it could've been if Zatanna fixed Dick and they went off on some cool adventures for awhile instead of Ric happening.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Imagine how cool it could've been if Zatanna fixed Dick and they went off on some cool adventures for awhile instead of Ric happening.


I'd have gone for that. Heck, they could have said a flaw/side-effect/interference with the restorative spell was that Dick only gets his memories back when he's off Earth. So D and Zee and maybe some other folks go off on trippy adventures in the Multiverse, and Nightwing is out of the way for the Batman stuff.

Or not.

----------


## Avi

They could have even brought Raptor back instead of rehashing the Owls again. Or could have Ric ome across characters he alredy affectef as Nightwing like Guppy. 




> I noticed this about the show, it's one of the few places we actually get to see Dick respected as a fighter (since we rarely see Dick do much fighting on screen in YJO). Last time I felt that was Nightwing #24 of Seeley's run.


Agreed. I was so afraid they would use Dick to showcase how awesome Rose is and instead he keeps showing that he has more experience than any of the young ones. That's how it should be.

----------


## Rac7d*

If Nightwing is in sight I think i can survive esp with the way Dick grayson is shaping up in TITANS

----------


## Rac7d*

> They could have even brought Raptor back instead of rehashing the Owls again. Or could have Ric ome across characters he alredy affectef as Nightwing like Guppy. 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. I was so afraid they would use Dick to showcase how awesome Rose is and instead he keeps showing that he has more experience than any of the young ones. That's how it should be.


Dick training rose has always been in canon

----------


## Roliver Queen

I think its commendable that Tynion is bringing Dick back in Batman since it was that book that messed him up in general. Ideally, id like for one of the two things to happen:

1. A Crossover between both Batman and Nightwing, primarily at the end of The Talon arc? (They legit DO have a Year of the Villain cover showing Cowl beating the hell outta Bats, Barb, and Damien).

2. Fix Nightwing in Batman as planned, let the Talon arc finish up and time skip to deal with him getting his memories back and finally finishing up the Dark Web arc...cuz it DIDN'T end.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Dick training rose has always been in canon


That page literally shows Rose trumping the more experienced Dick. He's in the transition phase to Nightwing in this flashback, just as he is in the Titans show. Yet on the show, Dick beats Rose at every turn because of course the guy who's been Robin for at least 10 years would beat the kid who hasn't even worn a superhero (or villain) costume yet. Just like Jason has nothing on Dick even though Jason is also shown to be one of the most capable teen fighters around (and probably on the whole planet because of course the current Robin is). The best thing about the show is that the characters are never diminished, their skills are both tremendous and realistic for their characters. This is almost never the case in comics now, especially for Dick and the Titans.

----------


## Godlike13

The show protects it's lead. Something DC's comic division has no interest in affording it's Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That page literally shows Rose trumping the more experienced Dick. He's in the transition phase to Nightwing in this flashback, just as he is in the Titans show. Yet on the show, Dick beats Rose at every turn because of course the guy who's been Robin for at least 10 years would beat the kid who hasn't even worn a superhero (or villain) costume yet. Just like Jason has nothing on Dick even though Jason is also shown to be one of the most capable teen fighters around (and probably on the whole planet because of course the current Robin is). The best thing about the show is that the characters are never diminished, their skills are both tremendous and realistic for their characters. This is almost never the case in comics now, especially for Dick and the Titans.


Even in the original that happened 
Girl had super power and a crush

----------


## yohyoi

More Tim fans are converting to the Church of Grayson. Just saw a Best Robin poll with Dick getting 85+%  vote. Tim was only in the single digits which is far from his past 10-30% range. Dick is getting more popular. Feels amazing man.

Also comics Dick is a jobber like Superman, Martian Manhunter and Juggernaut. Writers use them to show other characters are strong. Dick is abused in this trope, like Superman, because they are kind and diplomatic heroes who don't have the maturity of a manchild (looks at Batman).

----------


## yohyoi

Comic fans and complains about jobbing. Some things are eternal.

----------


## Rac7d*

> More Tim fans are converting to the Church of Grayson. Just saw a Best Robin poll with Dick getting 85+%  vote. Tim was only in the single digits which is far from his past 10-30% range. Dick is getting more popular. Feels amazing man.
> 
> Also comics Dick is a jobber like Superman, Martian Manhunter and Juggernaut. Writers use them to show other characters are strong. Dick is abused in this trope, like Superman, because they are kind and diplomatic heroes who don't have the maturity of a manchild (looks at Batman).


He has a rep of being one of the best fighters in the Dc so to show that someone else tough you let them knock dick out

----------


## Pohzee

I dunno if Tim fans are becoming Dick fans or just being driven away by a nearing decade of being shafted. Lord knows how much of a morale hit we've taken with a year and a half.

----------


## OWL45

> More Tim fans are converting to the Church of Grayson. Just saw a Best Robin poll with Dick getting 85+%  vote. Tim was only in the single digits which is far from his past 10-30% range. Dick is getting more popular. Feels amazing man.
> 
> Also comics Dick is a jobber like Superman, Martian Manhunter and Juggernaut. Writers use them to show other characters are strong. Dick is abused in this trope, like Superman, because they are kind and diplomatic heroes who don't have the maturity of a manchild (looks at Batman).


Im a long time comic reader and prefer the Titans depiction of Dick Grayson and his personality in the show instead of the comics. He is portrayed with so much more substance in the show. The comics have him flipping around, smiling, and acting like a fool just to much for me.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Even in the original that happened 
> Girl had super power and a crush


I don't think it matters how the original did it since the show managed to show that both Dick and Rose are uber-competent for their ages, and also made it a point to show Dick was the more mature one and had that play into his next scene with Hank. It was just a genuinely good sparring scene, and just a good sequence in general since it flowed nicely from previous scenes and flowed right into what happened after.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> More Tim fans are converting to the Church of Grayson. Just saw a Best Robin poll with Dick getting 85+%  vote. Tim was only in the single digits which is far from his past 10-30% range. Dick is getting more popular. Feels amazing man.
> 
> Also comics Dick is a jobber like Superman, Martian Manhunter and Juggernaut. Writers use them to show other characters are strong. Dick is abused in this trope, like Superman, because they are kind and diplomatic heroes who don't have the maturity of a manchild (looks at Batman).


I'm not converted cause there was nothing to convert. Tim (before N52 started) is probably my favorite character but Dick is almost equal to me. He was my first love, the one you can never forget.

----------


## Rac7d*

Nightwing was in that ttgo vs tt movie

The one from the new 52 movies

----------


## kjn

Found over in the Power Girl appreciation thread!




> While we're on the topic of Nightwing and Power Girl, here's them swapping costumes.
> 
> 
> 
> Hilariously, Dick is the only guy who could run around in PG's costume due to him rocking the booty shorts as the Boy Wonder for years (and 'cause he's Dick Grayson in general)
> 
> And PG looks great in a domino mask.

----------


## Rac7d*

I appreciate all the Love DCUNIVERS give Dick, its really been a like for me through this ric stuff

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDCUniv...22453930139648

----------


## Pohzee

Chang was underrated. His art rocked.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> More Tim fans are converting to the Church of Grayson. Just saw a Best Robin poll with Dick getting 85+%  vote. Tim was only in the single digits which is far from his past 10-30% range. Dick is getting more popular. Feels amazing man.
> 
> Also comics Dick is a jobber like Superman, Martian Manhunter and Juggernaut. Writers use them to show other characters are strong. Dick is abused in this trope, like Superman, because they are kind and diplomatic heroes who don't have the maturity of a manchild (looks at Batman).


N52 did me in lol. I got tired of my fav char being stuck in a creative loop. It's been the same with Dick the last 1-2 years, but Dick has actually grown(NW,Grayson,Batman).

----------


## CPSparkles

> I appreciate all the Love DCUNIVERS give Dick, its really been a like for me through this ric stuff
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDCUniv...22453930139648


Best Boy no questions.

----------


## CPSparkles

> *More Tim fans are converting to the Church of Grayson. Just saw a Best Robin poll with Dick getting 85+%  vote*. Tim was only in the single digits which is far from his past 10-30% range. Dick is getting more popular. Feels amazing man.
> 
> Also comics Dick is a jobber like Superman, Martian Manhunter and Juggernaut. Writers use them to show other characters are strong. Dick is abused in this trope, like Superman, because they are kind and diplomatic heroes who don't have the maturity of a manchild (looks at Batman).


So true I've been seeing a lot of Tim blogs making posts about Tim being Iconic as Robin. How everything people know and love about Robin  belongs to Tim. The Bo staff, The costume. It'd be funny if it wasn't so dumb and annoying.

It's irritating and not true not to mention that what fans love about Robin isn't the uniform or the weapon. such nonsense.

Dick is The Robin. Not surprised by the results.

----------


## Restingvoice

Hey... where do you think they're taking Dick next year if Luke will be the only one left to fill in the suit? 

Jason's not in good relation and Jean Paul's still in space... I think... or is he infected now? 

When Gordon got the suit it's because Bruce didn't have time to write a will before he died and amnesiac so the government took over.

----------


## Pohzee

Rumor has it Didio said they're bringing Dick back because he's a part of plans for next year. 

So he will either mentor the new Batman or he will be with the Titans.

----------


## Ascended

> Rumor has it Didio said they're bringing Dick back because he's a part of plans for next year. 
> 
> So he will either mentor the new Batman or he will be with the Titans.


Or he'll put the costume back on just so Didio can canon fodder him in the next Event.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Badou

> Hey... where do you think they're taking Dick next year if Luke will be the only one left to fill in the suit? 
> 
> Jason's not in good relation and Jean Paul's still in space... I think... or is he infected now? 
> 
> When Gordon got the suit it's because Bruce didn't have time to write a will before he died and amnesiac so the government took over.


Dick will be doing the same things he was doing before all the Ric crap I think. He will be Nightwing stuck in Bludhaven and probably running some mediocre Titans team book relaunch while working under the JL. They are just going to have Dick say he can't leave Bludhaven or the Titans and why they will have to have a new Batman or something like that.

----------


## bearman

Grayson as Batman was so well received. Why wouldn’t  they call him up again? That would be a great return to the big Leagues.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Hey... where do you think they're taking Dick next year if Luke will be the only one left to fill in the suit? 
> 
> Jason's not in good relation and Jean Paul's still in space... I think... or is he infected now? 
> 
> When Gordon got the suit it's because Bruce didn't have time to write a will before he died and amnesiac so the government took over.


It could be as simple as Dick saying he only recently became whole again and needs to reestablish himself and being Batman does not get that done.

Or they could cripple him. Who can say?

----------


## Godlike13

Dick is going to get his ass beat up and ultimately declare Luke as a better successor then he ever was. Cause well, that’s how these things tend to go. And when Didio says they have ‘plans’, that usually means they don’t have shit.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Rumor has it Didio said they're bringing Dick back because he's a part of plans for next year. 
> 
> So he will either mentor the new Batman or he will be with the Titans.


The plans I could think of is a kind of 80th-anniversary celebration, Titans relaunching, or DC timeline realignment. The last celebration lasted almost a year but that time it involved almost the whole family. 

Does Luke need mentoring? I don't know him skill-wise but if they're trying to make him pretend to be Bruce unless they're planning to cover his face too, people would recognize it at first glance.




> Or he'll put the costume back on just so Didio can canon fodder him in the next Event.


You mean like he became Batman, but immediately jettisoned into another dimension to... I don't know... became lost in space so Wally can save him, so that leaves only Luke?




> Dick will be doing the same things he was doing before all the Ric crap I think. He will be Nightwing stuck in Bludhaven and probably running some mediocre Titans team book relaunch while working under the JL. They are just going to have Dick say he can't leave Bludhaven or the Titans and why they will have to have a new Batman or something like that.


Dick protecting Bludhaven _is_ the reason why he's not Batman at the end of Arkham Knight so it could be as simple as that.

Titans will inevitably relaunch, especially with Nightwing coming to the series soon, but do you think they're just gonna continue doing the same thing? Usually, relaunch comes with a different plan. I'm guessing this one depends on whatever the DCU will look like after Year of The Villain. 

Either way, Dan Abnett better not return, he's gonna blame Donna Troy being infected by Batman Who Laughs as her fault.  




> Grayson as Batman was so well received. Why wouldnt they call him up again? That would be a great return to the big Leagues.


They already decided not to call him back again. Snyder because he wanted to do something different. Whoever decided on Luke, we don't know yet. 




> It could be as simple as Dick saying he only recently became whole again and needs to reestablish himself and being Batman does not get that done.
> 
> Or they could cripple him. Who can say?


Too soon. They like doing that but there's always an interval. 




> Dick is going to get his ass beat up and ultimately declare Luke as a better successor then he ever was. Cause well, thats how these things tend to go. And when Didio says they have plans, that usually means they dont have shit.


Looking at their history they're more likely just gonna ignore Dick and proceed with Luke, first choice or not.

His "plans" coincide with things I already guess gonna happen like Dick's 80th birthday and Titans regrouping after all the ordeal their members went through and finally maybe catch up with the series. Flash Forward should only last until next year as well. But beyond those two relaunches, I don't think there will be anything special as well because the events leading up to this point shouldn't even have to happen.

DC has this weird habit of putting characters down before raising them up that I don't know where they... oh wait, I answered this before, it's because their popular stories are like this. Death and Return of Superman, Knightfall, Killing Joke if you wanna count it. Put the hero through the wringer then triumphant return. Only the recent ones are very obvious quick cash grab that's not even successful sometimes where they're trying to repeat past success without realizing what made those older stories work.

----------


## Pohzee

Lol yes their big plan for him is to bring him back so he can job to someone.

----------


## Godlike13

DC has a habit of tearing characters down under bad writers and failed poorly executed ideas, then promising vague "plans" that never happen or amount to very little in actuality. Your kidding yourself if you think this is a conscious attempt at some sort of a Born Again. This we have ‘plans’ is classic Didio speak. 

 Dick is not Batman or Superman, they don’t make plans with Dick. They react and just try to make shit up last minute with whatever they have around at the time. His New 52 series, Grayson, Ric. None of these were the results of them having plans for the character. All were cobbled together last minute and reactionary. We just got lucky with Grayson in that in their poor management of accidentally double booking the book it resulted into something good for a change.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Darkcrusade25

> DC has a habit of tearing characters down under bad writers and failed poorly executed ideas, then promising vague "plans" that never happen or amount to very little in actuality. Your kidding yourself if you think this is a conscious attempt at some sort of a Born Again. This we have ‘plans’ is classic Didio speak. 
> 
>  Dick is not Batman or Superman, they don’t make plans with Dick. They react and just try to make shit up last minute with whatever they have around at the time. His New 52 series, Grayson, Ric. None of these were the results of them having plans for the character. All were cobbled together last minute and reactionary. We just got lucky with Grayson in that in their poor management of accidentally double booking the book it resulted into something good for a change.


Higgins had a plan for NW though. He got derailed a lot but I remember back when Grayson started, he said on some forum(can't remember name) that he had a blueprint for the run up until 50. It involved a flashback to robin quitting because batman wouldn't let him catch zucco, that was for the arc where present day zucco breaks out. A start to the arc of the former Chicago sidekick killing all capes, and more on dick's friend that is in chicago.

----------


## WonderNight

> Higgins had a plan for NW though. He got derailed a lot but I remember back when Grayson started, he said on some forum(can't remember name) that he had a blueprint for the run up until 50. It involved a flashback to robin quitting because batman wouldn't let him catch zucco, that was for the arc where present day zucco breaks out. A start to the arc of the former Chicago sidekick killing all capes, and more on dick's friend that is in chicago.


Man they all had "plans" for him Higgins had a 50 issue plan so did seeley and king for grayson  and now percy's run. It don't matter. 

As long as nightwing remains just a side character and a poor man's version of another more popular character this is all we're going to get.

----------


## Godlike13

> Higgins had a plan for NW though. He got derailed a lot but I remember back when Grayson started, he said on some forum(can't remember name) that he had a blueprint for the run up until 50. It involved a flashback to robin quitting because batman wouldn't let him catch zucco, that was for the arc where present day zucco breaks out. A start to the arc of the former Chicago sidekick killing all capes, and more on dick's friend that is in chicago.


Higgins run didn’t even have its own direction till over a year in. The artist even needed fill ins by issue 3. The new 52 series was a rush job. Higgins didn’t even know what his characters history was anymore. He might have eventually came up with a plan for his run, but even that came about in reaction to DotF and was being made up from there. Higgins run was made up as they went, and it was the lowest on the totem pole. Under the whims of not just Batman, but even Lobdell’s bullshit.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Man they all had "plans" for him Higgins had a 50 issue plan so did seeley and king for grayson  and now percy's run. It don't matter. 
> 
> As long as nightwing remains just a side character and a poor man's version of another more popular character this is all we're going to get.


I feel like we get a variation of this statement every 6 pages all year long

----------


## WonderNight

> I feel like we get a variation of this statement every 6 pages all year long


Yea in tired of complaining, I'll try to be more positive.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, I'm aware of all that. That's why I said I still won't buy it until I see them can stop interfering for at least 5 years since my previous 1-year time limit didn't work.

DC only care about Dick if there's an event they can sell like his 75th anniversary, that's why I still think there will be something because they can sell his 80th anniversary, and they can sell Titan's comeback, but if it's just Nightwing on the regular they don't care.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Higgins run didn’t even have its own direction till over a year in. The artist even needed fill ins by issue 3. The new 52 series was a rush job. Higgins didn’t even know what his characters history was anymore. He might have eventually came up with a plan for his run, but even that came about in reaction to DotF and was being made up from there. Higgins run was made up as they went, and it was the lowest on the totem pole. Under the whims of not just Batman, but even Lobdell’s bullshit.


This is unfair, Barrows got sick during the run. Are we just supposed to expect creators to be machines?

Editorial also made Higgins time on the book pretty sad honestly. A lot of people talk about his plans for Chicago, but screw that. He had plans for Deathstroke (he was the writer on Deathstroke at the start of the New 52) crossovers, as well as a team-up with Cyborg. That's just what he was comfortable talking about. Even the Owls story was something he planned with Snyder based on their collaboration with Gates of Gotham, but the way the New 52 went he had to do something completely different for Nightwing instead.

I'm not going to pretend his run was good, but being critical or pessimistic about something and being disrespectful towards real people are different things (even if Higgins and Barrows are probably never going to see your post lol).

----------


## redmax99

> Higgins run didn’t even have its own direction till over a year in. The artist even needed fill ins by issue 3. The new 52 series was a rush job. Higgins didn’t even know what his characters history was anymore. He might have eventually came up with a plan for his run, but even that came about in reaction to DotF and was being made up from there. Higgins run was made up as they went, and it was the lowest on the totem pole. Under the whims of not just Batman, but even Lobdell’s bullshit.


i'm iffy on lobdell but what did he do in the new 52 to dick

----------


## Godlike13

> This is unfair, Barrows got sick during the run. Are we just supposed to expect creators to be machines?
> 
> Editorial also made Higgins time on the book pretty sad honestly. A lot of people talk about his plans for Chicago, but screw that. He had plans for Deathstroke (he was the writer on Deathstroke at the start of the New 52) crossovers, as well as a team-up with Cyborg. That's just what he was comfortable talking about. Even the Owls story was something he planned with Snyder based on their collaboration with Gates of Gotham, but the way the New 52 went he had to do something completely different for Nightwing instead.
> 
> I'm not going to pretend his run was good, but being critical or pessimistic about something and being disrespectful towards real people are different things (even if Higgins and Barrows are probably never going to see your post lol).


How am I being unfair? It was what it was. I’m not disrespecting the creators, but it wasn’t a situation to succeed in. We had a brand new writer who barley got his feet wet in the industry, and a sick artist. They didn’t even have really the time to plan the run out and had to constantly navigate the whims of the New 52. Which in itself was being made up as they went. That was a terrible situation for the creators, but that is the kind of situation that happens when they just throw something together with what they could and no real plan going in.

----------


## Frontier

To be honest, with everything going against him, I think it's impressive Higgins run was as solid as it was (at least in my opinion).

----------


## Godlike13

> i'm iffy on lobdell but what did he do in the new 52 to dick


Rewrite his Titans history.

----------


## Godlike13

> To be honest, with everything going against him, I think it's impressive Higgins run was as solid as it was (at least in my opinion).


I like Higgins, and I continued to support his work in the industry. I was glad to see him get New Order so he can show what he could do in a better situation, with some actual time and freedom to tell his story. If they wanted to team him and McCarty up again, for say a Titans relauch, you wouldn’t hear complaints from me.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> How am I being unfair? It was what it was. I’m not disrespecting the creators, but it wasn’t a situation to succeed in. We had a brand new writer who barley got his feet wet in the industry, and a sick artist. They didn’t even have really the time to plan the run out and had to constantly navigate the whims of the New 52. Which in itself was being made up as they went. That was a terrible situation for the creators, but that is the kind of situation that happens when they just throw something together with what they could and no real plan going in.


It seemed like you were blaming the creators themselves for all those issues, but maybe I misunderstood you. If you were only saying those circumstances were terrible, then I agree and I apologize.

I don't exactly expect editorial to handle the Nightwing book any different in terms of planning, I mean Ric happened and is still happening because of that.

----------


## Badou

I'm very mixed on Higgins Nightwing work. I get he had a lot of editorial issues, had no idea what Dick's history was, and there was a mandate to make things "dark", but I don't think he had a great voice for Dick's character and his stories weren't that good. I also believe he genuinely cares for the character, which I think very few writers do, but there were a lot of ideas he had I didn't agree with. Every arc was just seeing how much he could beat down the character and it got exhausting. Felt like all Dick did was fail and get beaten up in his run. 

I am actually glad editorial stepped in and stopped Higgins' Chicago arc plans. I did not like what he did with Tony Zucco and what he had planned for him. He wanted to turn Zucco into Dick's own Joker and have a scene where Dick beats Zucco nearly to death with his fists. Also the Prankster villain was forced on him by editorial and he didn't want to use him and had plans for his own villain that never happened with it being the sidekick of a former hero in Chicago that went evil, which might have been interesting but I don't know. I'm glad that all got cut short and we ended up with the Grayson series instead.

----------


## Rac7d*

https://www.cbr.com/dc-nightwing-mar...n-cant-defeat/

I think this is fair, Netflix Iron Fist makes me feel nightwing would have a good shot

----------


## Rac7d*

They seem to be restablishing dick’s rivalry with deathstroke here
This show is hitting all the right beats

----------


## Ascended

> https://www.cbr.com/dc-nightwing-mar...n-cant-defeat/
> 
> I think this is fair, Netflix Iron Fist makes me feel nightwing would have a good shot


I dunno. I mean, I'm a big fan of Nightwing (wearing my Nightwing shirt right now actuallly!) so I certainly have a bias towards him. But I feel like the list ignored the fact that Dick spent most of his life fighting superhumans and monsters with the Titans, and it was a much bigger part of his life than it's been for Bruce. I feel like, when written properly, Dick should have better odds against superhumans than he rightfully should. 

I don't see Dick taking down Spidey or Deadpool, and Wolverine would cut him to ribbons, but....Cyclops? Really? Don't get me wrong, I got mad respect for Scott Summers and his tactical skills, but Dick's not exactly a rube here and he's been dodging lasers his whole life. Sure maybe Cyke gets in a good shot (and he only needs one, because those optics are legit) but after everything Dick's dealt with I'm not really sure if "laser eyes" are gonna be enough to take him down. And the list talks about how Dick could easily discern Daredevil's abilities and weaknesses (because those are so obvious?), but "hey, Cyclops can't shoot me if he can't see me, and I happen to have smoke bombs right here!" would never occur to Dick? That one feels like the wrong call. 

But I have a bias, so what do I know?

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> https://www.cbr.com/dc-nightwing-mar...n-cant-defeat/
> 
> I think this is fair, Netflix Iron Fist makes me feel nightwing would have a good shot


As always, these things depend on the creators and what they want to accomplish.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> I'm very mixed on Higgins Nightwing work. I get he had a lot of editorial issues, had no idea what Dick's history was, and there was a mandate to make things "dark", but I don't think he had a great voice for Dick's character and his stories weren't that good. I also believe he genuinely cares for the character, which I think very few writers do, but there were a lot of ideas he had I didn't agree with. Every arc was just seeing how much he could beat down the character and it got exhausting. Felt like all Dick did was fail and get beaten up in his run. 
> 
> I am actually glad editorial stepped in and stopped Higgins' Chicago arc plans. I did not like what he did with Tony Zucco and what he had planned for him. He wanted to turn Zucco into Dick's own Joker and have a scene where Dick beats Zucco nearly to death with his fists. Also the Prankster villain was forced on him by editorial and he didn't want to use him and had plans for his own villain that never happened with it being the sidekick of a former hero in Chicago that went evil, which might have been interesting but I don't know. I'm glad that all got cut short and we ended up with the Grayson series instead.


Been a while but didn't he give Zucco a redemption/atonement arc? Didn't really care one way or another. I'm not against characters like Zucco or Chill getting explored further, but I'm not exactly eager for it either.




> https://www.cbr.com/dc-nightwing-mar...n-cant-defeat/
> 
> I think this is fair, Netflix Iron Fist makes me feel nightwing would have a good shot


https://twitter.com/UberKryptonian/s...58018586726400
yeah, this looks so freaking sick. :EEK!:  :Wink:

----------


## Restingvoice

> Been a while but didn't he give Zucco a redemption/atonement arc? Didn't really care one way or another. I'm not against characters like Zucco or Chill getting explored further, but I'm not exactly eager for it either.


He did, but it was all canceled when his wife and kid found out about his past and left him, which prompted him to declare himself Tony Zucco once more, as in, he's back as the mob boss Tony Zucco. He's been using a fake name and tried to have a new life with his wife and kid up until that point.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing movie delayed


https://www.cinemablend.com/news/248...-to-the-batman

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing movie delayed
> 
> 
> https://www.cinemablend.com/news/248...-to-the-batman


Not surprising in the slightest.

I had honestly almost forgotten about it.

----------


## Arsenal

> Nightwing movie delayed
> 
> 
> https://www.cinemablend.com/news/248...-to-the-batman


I feel like the major take away here that (apparently) this is a thing that's still exists.

I kinda figured it was one of those things that died a silent death in some corner somewhere.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Nightwing movie delayed
> 
> 
> https://www.cinemablend.com/news/248...-to-the-batman


That it is still being considered is a positive.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Not surprising in the slightest.
> 
> I had honestly almost forgotten about it.


With Batman so young it was kinda obvi

----------


## Pohzee

> That it is still being considered is a positive.


Yeah I figured it was donezo

----------


## Godlike13

Didn't we already know that.

----------


## Ascended

> I feel like the major take away here that (apparently) this is a thing that's still exists.
> 
> I kinda figured it was one of those things that died a silent death in some corner somewhere.


I dunno, I think people are just poking it with a stick. 

If Joker does well maybe, just slightly maybe, we'll get an "Elseworlds" style Nightwing movie. Seems insanely unlikely to me (I somehow feel like they'd just do Batman Beyond instead), but it's not impossible.

----------


## Arsenal

> I dunno, I think people are just poking it with a stick. 
> 
> If Joker does well maybe, just slightly maybe, we'll get an "Elseworlds" style Nightwing movie. Seems insanely unlikely to me (I somehow feel like they'd just do Batman Beyond instead), but it's not impossible.


If people are poking it with a stick, it means somebody's atleast still interested in it.

That alone puts its above most of the rumored DC movie's being worked on.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I dunno, I think people are just poking it with a stick. 
> 
> If Joker does well maybe, just slightly maybe, we'll get an "Elseworlds" style Nightwing movie. Seems insanely unlikely to me (I somehow feel like they'd just do Batman Beyond instead), but it's not impossible.


Eh... While I would love to see a Nightwing movie down the line, nothing about the Joaquin Phoenix Joker film catches my interest. If anything, I feel repulsed by it. For a variety of reasons. The least of which is that its another grim-dark film (which I've gotten really tired of).

----------


## yohyoi

I hope everyone will have a nice day  :Big Grin:  You deserve it.

----------


## WonderNight

> I hope everyone will have a nice day  You deserve it.


Oh no. What happened? Did they shoot dick again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I hope everyone will have a nice day  You deserve it.


your scaring everyone

----------


## Pohzee

> your scaring everyone





> Oh no. What happened? Did they shoot dick again.


Are we that jaded now? Lol

----------


## Jackalope89

> Are we that jaded now? Lol


You have to ask?

----------


## astro@work

> I hope everyone will have a nice day  You deserve it.


I really don't think we need this kind of negativity on the boards. 
Haven't Dick Grayson fans suffered enough?
 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> Eh... While I would love to see a Nightwing movie down the line, nothing about the Joaquin Phoenix Joker film catches my interest. If anything, I feel repulsed by it. For a variety of reasons. The least of which is that its another grim-dark film (which I've gotten really tired of).


I was never planning on watching it anyway, just because I'm sick of the Joker (and Batman). 

But my point is that WB has made a out-of-DCEU-continuity film. And if it does well that might embolden them to do more movies outside the DCEU. And it seems to me that with Affleck out as the Bat and Patterson playing a younger Bruce Wayne, the only Dick we're gonna see in the DCEU (at least for the next decade, minimum) is as Robin. So if we're gonna see Nightwing, it almost has to be an Elseworlds type of film. 

Unless Patterson's movie is a flashback, any Dick Grayson we'll get is gonna be too young for Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I was never planning on watching it anyway, just because I'm sick of the Joker (and Batman). 
> 
> But my point is that WB has made a out-of-DCEU-continuity film. And if it does well that might embolden them to do more movies outside the DCEU. And it seems to me that with Affleck out as the Bat and Patterson playing a younger Bruce Wayne, the only Dick we're gonna see in the DCEU (at least for the next decade, minimum) is as Robin. So if we're gonna see Nightwing, it almost has to be an Elseworlds type of film. 
> 
> Unless Patterson's movie is a flashback, any Dick Grayson we'll get is gonna be too young for Nightwing.


It was really good

We tend to forget most of batman villain are insane

----------


## Godlike13

We do, since when?

----------


## Rac7d*

> We do, since when?


I should have said sick not insane

----------


## Pohzee

> I should have said sick not insane


We really do live in a society,,,

----------


## yohyoi

Will Dick Grayson rise up with his fellow gamers? He needs to represent today's teenagers.

----------


## Pohzee

> Will Dick Grayson rise up with his fellow gamers? He needs to represent today's teenagers.




Dick was a true Joker all along.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Will Dick Grayson rise up with his fellow gamers? He needs to represent today's teenagers.


Wait, what are we talking about, again?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Will Dick Grayson rise up with his fellow gamers? He needs to represent today's teenagers.


He hasn't been a teen since the 80s...

----------


## Konja7

> He hasn't been a teen since the 80s...


I guess yohyoi mean the films where Dick will likely start as a teenager. 

I guess Dick as a teenager couldn't be written in the same way he was written 30 years ago (the last time Dick was a teenager).

----------


## Pohzee

It's a joke about the Gamers Rise Up! meme since the Joker movie has been adopted by incels and edgelords.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I guess yohyoi mean the films where Dick will likely start as a teenager. 
> 
> I guess Dick as a teenager couldn't be written in the same way he was written 30 years ago (the last time Dick was a teenager).


we have had alot flashback material

----------


## Restingvoice

> It's a joke about the Gamers Rise Up! meme since the Joker movie has been adopted by incels and edgelords.


Is that before or after the director admitted he's a failed comedian angry at the world and now making a story about himself?

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Is that before or after the director admitted he's a failed comedian angry at the world and now making a story about himself?


*sigh*

Every day I find new reasons not to see this film.

On-topic: If it's true that WB isn't even trying to do a shared universe anymore, then we could still get a Nightwing movie regardless of what happens with Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

> *sigh*
> 
> Every day I find new reasons not to see this film.
> 
> On-topic: If it's true that WB isn't even trying to do a shared universe anymore, then we could still get a Nightwing movie regardless of what happens with Batman.


Just to clarify the "making story about himself" part is my interpretation...

but come on, especially since it's a reinterpretation not based on the comic ^^

We can still get a Nightwing movie in the near time if Matt Reeves Batman is a flashback movie to establish continuity.

----------


## Rac7d*

> *sigh*
> 
> Every day I find new reasons not to see this film.
> 
> On-topic: If it's true that WB isn't even trying to do a shared universe anymore, then we could still get a Nightwing movie regardless of what happens with Batman.


I think it be safe to say if Batman failed then A bat universe would be pipelined

----------


## Rac7d*

The funniest moment at the DC Publishers Panel came after a fan asked what was up with Nightwing, and before Dan could answer, Jim said, “Don’t worry—I promise you I will protect Nightwing.”

Ther Hero we need Jim Lee

----------


## Nine Crocodile

Newsarama has the quote as "I assure you I will protect Nightwing at all costs". 

I laughed. I admit it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Since when's Jim Lee interested in Nightwing? Sure didn't protect him the past year.

----------


## Pohzee

> The funniest moment at the DC Publishers Panel came after a fan asked what was up with Nightwing, and before Dan could answer, Jim said, “Don’t worry—I promise you I will protect Nightwing.”
> 
> Ther Hero we need Jim Lee


He sure sucks at it

----------


## Restingvoice

"DiDio says that the events of the Batman books will have ramifications for Nightwing as well."

Oh, big surprise. That's literally what you always do!

https://www.newsarama.com/47203-nycc...dan-didio.html

----------


## Ascended

> Newsarama has the quote as "I assure you I will protect Nightwing at all costs". 
> 
> I laughed. I admit it.


.....this is protecting Nightwing? 

Someday I hope we find out what nonsense has been going on behind closed doors when *this* is protecting Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lee's done a shit job at "protecting" him until this point if that is what he was doing. What a fucking joke. Anyone that takes any solace in anything a Lee, King, Didio , or anyone in charge say are kidding themselves.


Why do you have crush my hope


Were getting to the light a the end f the tunel now

----------


## nhienphan2808

Protecting him “from” anything happening in the dcu.

----------


## Pohzee

It's not a coincidence the DCU went to shit after Dick got shot.

----------


## Godlike13

> "DiDio says that the events of the Batman books will have ramifications for Nightwing as well."
> 
> Oh, big surprise. That's literally what you always do!
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/47203-nycc...dan-didio.html


“Hey, whats the plan with Nightwing?”
“Read Batman.”

#$@%#%$%$%$%$5$^!!!  :Mad: 

He’s clearly left it in the hand of the Bat office who are more then likely responsible for Ric in the first place.

----------


## Badou

> Why do you have crush my hope
> 
> 
> Were getting to the light a the end f the tunel now


Since the New 52 started there has been a lack of care or a disinterest in using the character, imo. With DC just constantly undermining the character and not caring about his direction. It is still the same people in charge running things and deciding what direction to pull Nightwing's character into now. So I don't really expect anything to change since I've been given zero evidence to believe it will. 

He has zero agency in DC and is never used as the driver of a bigger story. It has been a pattern of Dick stuck in his solo series cut off from nearly everyone telling small stories, and then he gets dragged into another character's book or story to fuel their narrative instead of his own. He never spearheads any bigger story, book or event. Then he gets thrown back into his own book with whatever creative team on it at the time to deal with the fallout while the main character or story that dragged Dick in ignores it all. There was some shitty Titans book thrown in there too where he was completely ineffectual, but it is better if we ignore that.

I mean the only time I think since the New 52 where it felt like DC had something BIG planned for the character was in Forever Evil. I remember all the discussions back then for it. Everyone thought DC was going to finally use the character on a bigger scale again. Dick was finally going to be involved in the DCU in a big JL event written by Johns. The opening issue even had Dick's ID being exposed to the world and surely this would be a big DCU issue going forward, right? Owlman even had some special interest in Dick that would be important too we thought. 

But it was all nothing. Johns was a complete disappointment and seemed to have no interest in actually writing the character beyond just having him be chained to a chair the whole time. Then they ignored the ID stuff and by a complete accident due to them contracting both King and Seeley we ended up with the Grayson series. It wasn't even a planned thing. The best Dick story we got since the New 52 was a complete accident.

When you look at the last handful of years at all of DC's "big" or "important" stories Dick has been irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. He isn't an important figure in the DCU and he has zero weight behind his actions now. There are no creators or anyone that has a real interest in the character. Like you look at something like the Three Jokers story by Johns and Fabok and you see them building this big story and promoting it. Jason or a Barbara are heavily used in that promotion and are being billed as having important roles in this story DC is pushing. Even look at Bendis' Leviathan event and see how Jason is being used in that, or how Priest wanted to do a Batman vs Deathstroke story and DC decided to instead turn it into a big thing. Dick hasn't had anything like that. So even when the Ric story ends and Dick is Nightwing again I don't really expect any real improvement because the character is still stuck in a place where he isn't that valued and has no writers that are backing him.

----------


## Restingvoice

Speaking of how Dick was handled... back up a bit... 30 years ago. I have a question for older fans.

Is it true that they canceled Dick and Kori's wedding because the Bat office wants him back and cut off deep relations with characters outside of the Bat office?

----------


## nhienphan2808

Yeah, but now don't think it's so much "wants him back" as in want the character, but they think they could salvage him after NTT went down. They thought by pretending some of the bad drama didn't happen they did him a favor somehow. I find it interesting that the bat office "wanted him back", but O'neil, the chief editor, at the same time, said "we didn't know what to do with him" and "Batman really needs someone like Babs. Robin? Who?". Only Chuck Dixon made something out of those lemons. I don't like his writing much and Dick's Titans history started to erode right after Zero Hour (Donna is suddenly a love interest, no mention of Kory or Titans in 96 Nightwing, he was the LAST sidekick of five rather than first...) but he was like, juggling all those series. 

I do think at the moment Didio also is thinking he is "saving" Nightwing somehow, by not letting him have a part in ANYTHING big happening.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah, but now don't think it's so much "wants him back" as in want the character, but they think they could salvage him after NTT went down. They thought by pretending some of the bad drama didn't happen they did him a favor somehow. I find it interesting that the bat office "wanted him back", but O'neil, the chief editor, at the same time, said "we didn't know what to do with him" and "Batman really needs someone like Babs. Robin? Who?". Only Chuck Dixon made something out of those lemons. I don't like his writing much and Dick's Titans history started to erode right after Zero Hour (Donna is suddenly a love interest, no mention of Kory or Titans in 96 Nightwing, he was the LAST sidekick of five rather than first...) but he was like, juggling all those series. 
> 
> I do think at the moment Didio also is thinking he is "saving" Nightwing somehow, by not letting him have a part in ANYTHING big happening.


This was the early 90s right? Mulletwing era? Before Knightfall? Knightfall was ponytail era. 
What was Babs doing at that time? Was she Oracle yet?

You mean he's keeping Nightwing save from being a suspect or perpetrator in Crisis, Leviathan, Infected, or any big future event that requires a victim or a villain? Hard to buy, DDO, considering other series are running just fine and he ends up being a Talon anyway.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> This was the early 90s right? Mulletwing era? Before Knightfall? Knightfall was ponytail era. 
> What was Babs doing at that time? Was she Oracle yet?
> 
> You mean he's keeping Nightwing save from being a suspect or perpetrator in Crisis, Leviathan, Infected, or any big future event that requires a victim or a villain? Hard to buy, DDO, considering other series are running just fine and he ends up being a Talon anyway.


Babs as Oracle debuted in the late '80s, so yeah.

I would not be surprised if O'Neil really didn't know what to do with Dick, as he was too busy changing the continuity to diminish his role in the DCU.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Babs as Oracle debuted in the late '80s, so yeah.
> 
> I would not be surprised if O'Neil really didn't know what to do with Dick, as he was too busy changing the continuity to diminish his role in the DCU.


Well if Babs is Oracle I can see how she can be more useful. Dick's skill set is too similar to Batman and Robin so without Titans to lead he doesn't have a unique spot aside from being an extra helping hand. A supporting cast to the fam. The problem of his niche already started as far back as then huh.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Well if Babs is Oracle I can see how she can be more useful. Dick's skill set is too similar to Batman and Robin so without Titans to lead he doesn't have a unique spot aside from being an extra helping hand. A supporting cast to the fam. The problem of his niche already started as far back as then huh.


It did not start with DiDio.

It's easy to forget that Dick debuted before any other Bat-character of significance except Jim Gordon and Julie Madison (and Hugo Strange and the Monk, if you consider them important). Before the Joker, Catwoman, even Alfred. He was crucial early on. That changed under O'Neil.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Before he was chief editor he was responsible for Bronze Age Batman who was immortalised by BTAS later too. And NTT happened BECAUSE the batoffice had not known what to do with Dick in the 70s. They "wanted him back" only when NTT stopped being the series that saved DC from bankrupt, just to repeat that sentiment.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Since the New 52 started there has been a lack of care or a disinterest in using the character, imo. With DC just constantly undermining the character and not caring about his direction. It is still the same people in charge running things and deciding what direction to pull Nightwing's character into now. So I don't really expect anything to change since I've been given zero evidence to believe it will. 
> 
> He has zero agency in DC and is never used as the driver of a bigger story. It has been a pattern of Dick stuck in his solo series cut off from nearly everyone telling small stories, and then he gets dragged into another character's book or story to fuel their narrative instead of his own. He never spearheads any bigger story, book or event. Then he gets thrown back into his own book with whatever creative team on it at the time to deal with the fallout while the main character or story that dragged Dick in ignores it all. There was some shitty Titans book thrown in there too where he was completely ineffectual, but it is better if we ignore that.
> 
> I mean the only time I think since the New 52 where it felt like DC had something BIG planned for the character was in Forever Evil. I remember all the discussions back then for it. Everyone thought DC was going to finally use the character on a bigger scale again. Dick was finally going to be involved in the DCU in a big JL event written by Johns. The opening issue even had Dick's ID being exposed to the world and surely this would be a big DCU issue going forward, right? Owlman even had some special interest in Dick that would be important too we thought. 
> 
> But it was all nothing. Johns was a complete disappointment and seemed to have no interest in actually writing the character beyond just having him be chained to a chair the whole time. Then they ignored the ID stuff and by a complete accident due to them contracting both King and Seeley we ended up with the Grayson series. It wasn't even a planned thing. The best Dick story we got since the New 52 was a complete accident.
> 
> When you look at the last handful of years at all of DC's "big" or "important" stories Dick has been irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. He isn't an important figure in the DCU and he has zero weight behind his actions now. There are no creators or anyone that has a real interest in the character. Like you look at something like the Three Jokers story by Johns and Fabok and you see them building this big story and promoting it. Jason or a Barbara are heavily used in that promotion and are being billed as having important roles in this story DC is pushing. Even look at Bendis' Leviathan event and see how Jason is being used in that, or how Priest wanted to do a Batman vs Deathstroke story and DC decided to instead turn it into a big thing. Dick hasn't had anything like that. So even when the Ric story ends and Dick is Nightwing again I don't really expect any real improvement because the character is still stuck in a place where he isn't that valued and has no writers that are backing him.



Brah I did not need all this I have been here on this forum for qite a bit 

But I dont want to be miserable all the time so the tiniest bit of good faith helps me

----------


## astro@work

> "DiDio says that *the events of the Batman books will have ramifications for Nightwing as well*."
> 
> Oh, big surprise. That's literally what you always do!
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/47203-nycc...dan-didio.html


..that's actually the whole problem. The question is, when are they going to FIX it?

The ramifications of the Batbooks on Nightwing have been that:
-Dick doesn't get to be Nightwing.
-The history of an iconic 80 year old property is ignored
-Apparently doesn't bathe anymore.
-Doesn't get to be a member of the TT where he has gotten far more storyline over the years than in the Batbooks.

Can the events of the Batbooks please NOT have ramifications on Dick? Pretty please?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Before he was chief editor he was responsible for Bronze Age Batman who was immortalised by BTAS later too. And NTT happened BECAUSE the batoffice had not known what to do with Dick in the 70s. They "wanted him back" only when NTT stopped being the series that saved DC from bankrupt, just to repeat that sentiment.


Okay, next question. What happened to NTT?




> ..that's actually the whole problem. The question is, when are they going to FIX it?
> 
> The ramifications of the Batbooks on Nightwing have been that:
> -Dick doesn't get to be Nightwing.
> -The history of an iconic 80 year old property is ignored
> -Apparently doesn't bathe anymore.
> -Doesn't get to be a member of the TT where he has gotten far more storyline over the years than in the Batbooks.
> 
> Can the events of the Batbooks please NOT have ramifications on Dick? Pretty please?


Based on the answer above, we're late by 30 years. Now it's the norm.

This discussion has reaffirmed that I should just stick to Pre Crisis for now

----------


## Badou

> Brah I did not need all this I have been here on this forum for qite a bit 
> 
> But I dont want to be miserable all the time so the tiniest bit of good faith helps me


Yeah, I know. It was more be just putting my own thought into a post just to get it out there.

----------


## Restingvoice

Alright. Since I'm done over at the DC new timeline thread, here's my report

Generation 2 Year 1 Batman and Superman debuts
Generation 2 Year 3 Dick Grayson debuts as Robin
Generation 2 Year 6 Teen Titans debut
Generation 2 Year 15 Dick Grayson debuts as Nightwing
Generation 4 Year 1 Dick Grayson debuts as Batman alongside Damian as Robin

Generation 1 is 25 years
Generation 2 is 15 years
Generation 3 is 15 years
Generation 4 is 5 years

That's all I can read about Dick.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Just watched the newest Titans episode.  They gave Dick a pretty good showing I thought (same with Kori...wow.)

----------


## Rac7d*

> Alright. Since I'm done over at the DC new timeline thread, here's my report
> 
> Generation 2 Year 1 Batman and Superman debuts
> Generation 2 Year 3 Dick Grayson debuts as Robin
> Generation 2 Year 6 Teen Titans debut
> Generation 2 Year 15 Dick Grayson debuts as Nightwing
> Generation 4 Year 1 Dick Grayson debuts as Batman alongside Damian as Robin
> 
> Generation 1 is 25 years
> ...


So how old is duck according to this

----------


## WonderNight

> So how old is duck according to this


If he became Robin at 12 he'd be like 50.

----------


## Badou

It still doesn't make any sense to me. Like they have the pre Crisis New Teen Titans series, but also the Abnett Rebirth Titans series. Each of those series have stories that contradict each other. They can't exist at the same time. So which version of the story is in the current canon?

----------


## Konja7

> It still doesn't make any sense to me. Like they have the pre Crisis New Teen Titans series, but also the Abnett Rebirth Titans series. Each of those series have stories that contradict each other. They can't exist at the same time. So which version of the story is in the current canon?


Apparently timeline changes still happen in the current canon. 

So, both stories happened, but events in pre Crisis New Teen Titans were probably changed after a Crisis or something like that.

----------


## Ascended

From what I can tell, it looks like everyone is going to remember (or at least be aware) of the changes to the timeline. So basically the characters will view things the same way we do; with knowledge that there were versions of themselves that appeared in the 30's and 40's, that various Crisis events have reset their histories, etc. 

So Dick (and Bruce, Clark, Diana, etc) aren't actually going to be 80+ years old. They're just going to be aware of their larger histories beyond any one continuity. 

Or something. I'm honestly not sure what the hell DC is trying to do with all this. But I've seen "comprehensive timelines" before and they never last, never actually fix things, and I have no expectations that this will be any different. But who knows, it might end up giving us a good story.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It still doesn't make any sense to me. Like they have the pre Crisis New Teen Titans series, but also the Abnett Rebirth Titans series. Each of those series have stories that contradict each other. They can't exist at the same time. So which version of the story is in the current canon?


In the clear version of Gen 4 that Didio posted, the verbatim during Gen 4 Year 3 (Rebirth) are "Wally returns" and "Original Titans return: Dick, Lilith, Roy, Garth, Wally, Donna"

Year 2 (New 52) mentioned verbatim "Wally and Bart disappear into the Time Stream"

Also, I saw Team Titans and All-New Titans are mentioned in Gen 3 (from Jason's Robin era to Flashpoint). Specifically during Zero Hour until No Man's Land. I don't know in what capacity. I'm not familiar with the teams.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick leads two of DCU's most popular shows but we are still getting Ric after a year? Shows how inept the comics division is. Even TTG used Robin more effectively. Dick Grayson is everywhere these days except in his own comics.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Fact is ever since the 70s, DC the company had never had Dick's back. 




> I mean the only time I think since the New 52 where it felt like DC had something BIG planned for the character was in Forever Evil. I remember all the discussions back then for it. Everyone thought DC was going to finally use the character on a bigger scale again. Dick was finally going to be involved in the DCU in a big JL event written by Johns. The opening issue even had Dick's ID being exposed to the world and surely this would be a big DCU issue going forward, right? Owlman even had some special interest in Dick that would be important too we thought.
> 
> But it was all nothing. Johns was a complete disappointment and seemed to have no interest in actually writing the character beyond just having him be chained to a chair the whole time. Then they ignored the ID stuff and by a complete accident due to them contracting both King and Seeley we ended up with the Grayson series. It wasn't even a planned thing. The best Dick story we got since the New 52 was a complete accident.
> 
> When you look at the last handful of years at all of DC's "big" or "important" stories Dick has been irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. He isn't an important figure in the DCU and he has zero weight behind his actions now. There are no creators or anyone that has a real interest in the character. Like you look at something like the Three Jokers story by Johns and Fabok and you see them building this big story and promoting it. Jason or a Barbara are heavily used in that promotion and are being billed as having important roles in this story DC is pushing. Even look at Bendis' Leviathan event and see how Jason is being used in that, or how Priest wanted to do a Batman vs Deathstroke story and DC decided to instead turn it into a big thing. Dick hasn't had anything like that. So even when the Ric story ends and Dick is Nightwing again I don't really expect any real improvement because the character is still stuck in a place where he isn't that valued and has no writers that are backing him.



What i find sad about all this exlusion it's always something that SHOULD HAVE BEEN, and then the author backed out, or he gets shafted, or the story goes to Bruce, or he was erased from panels, or called TIM is a book of HIS OWN TEAM (Giants) at the last minute. 

This is like that time the plans for a wedding with Starfire were cancelled, or when Mark Waid wanted to write his solo and was declined, or when the Burton Batman film scrapped the role of circus acrobat Dick Grayson. but worse, because pre-new52 individual new talented writers (Wolfman, Dixon, Tomasi, Snyder, Johns) could do something safe with him even when there are much restrictions and no backing from editorial. Now he was left in a position that made new writers leave, and no one could do anything worthwhile even if they stayed, as the universe is now.

----------


## Rac7d*

no context

----------


## king81992

> In the clear version of Gen 4 that Didio posted, the verbatim during Gen 4 Year 3 (Rebirth) are "Wally returns" and "Original Titans return: Dick, Lilith, Roy, Garth, Wally, Donna"
> 
> Year 2 (New 52) mentioned verbatim "Wally and Bart disappear into the Time Stream"
> 
> Also, I saw Team Titans and All-New Titans are mentioned in Gen 3 (from Jason's Robin era to Flashpoint). Specifically during Zero Hour until No Man's Land. I don't know in what capacity. I'm not familiar with the teams.


Either all the Generations are treated as alternate timelines/reality or something happened that reset everyone's age.

----------


## Godlike13

Im digging Titans more and more. Its not perfect but its far and away the best thing the character has going for him right now.

----------


## Pohzee

IMO the plot is better and the acting is fine, but the scripting, dialogue, and choreography are all much, much worse.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to slam some "Wheaty-Flakes."

----------


## Restingvoice

> Either all the Generations are treated as alternate timelines/reality or something happened that reset everyone's age.


I... missed the biggest title of the whole timeline. It's "eighty-something real-time or sixty-something elapsed time"
The whole timeline added up to 65 years and that runs realistically each Generation but there seems to be an age down after Crisis of Infinite Earths and Flashpoint

----------


## Dzetoun

Well, after the “Deathstroke” episode, I think we can say that this version of Titans is definitely a new spin on the history of Dick Grayson and the team. I mean that as neither good nor bad on the face of it, just an observation. I do think the developing relationships are a good point, with that between Hank and Jason being especially interesting.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Well, after the “Deathstroke” episode, I think we can say that this version of Titans is definitely a new spin on the history of Dick Grayson and the team. I mean that as neither good nor bad on the face of it, just an observation. I do think the developing relationships are a good point, with that between Hank and Jason being especially interesting.


"Jason is our asshole"

Hank really sees a lot of himself in Jason, which is kind of cool actually. Though his hot-headedness got to him in regards to Rose.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Benjamin Percy has got two series over at Marvel, Crossovers have Really made Dick an irrelevant character despite never really being featured.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, after the “Deathstroke” episode, I think we can say that this version of Titans is definitely a new spin on the history of Dick Grayson and the team. I mean that as neither good nor bad on the face of it, just an observation. I do think the developing relationships are a good point, with that between Hank and Jason being especially interesting.


 Has any show ever followed a comic book to the letter ?

----------


## Rac7d*

https://twitter.com/A_Flying_Wonder/...16608819101698

----------


## Pohzee

> Benjamin Percy has got two series over at Marvel, Crossovers have Really made Dick an irrelevant character despite never really being featured.


I know what you mean, but I maintain that Percy isn't the writer the writer to elevate Dick. His GA is overrated to high heaven and his TT was pointless and forgettable. His Nightwing was no better.

And good God, the cereal.

----------


## Restingvoice

Percy's idea about Dark Web is good but he doesn't have a good voice for Dick, making him sounds too old, and his GA is super unsubtle XD

----------


## Godlike13

I like that he wanted his Dick to be more unique. Not sure if it was the best idiosyncrasy, but i like the idea of trying to give him more idiosyncrasies. Mooneyham was a terrible choice of artist for his run though. His style completely contradicted Percy's story and themes.

----------


## bearman

I have always loved the idea of Nightwing headline a teamup book, with a different co star each month. This is a way to focus on Dicks versatility, as well as his vast personal connections across the universe.

----------


## Pohzee

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/10...-new-lover-dc/
"Harley Quinn Has a New Lover at DC – One That No One Will Be Able To Guess"

Yeah I'll take a guess.

----------


## Celgress

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/10...-new-lover-dc/
> "Harley Quinn Has a New Lover at DC – One That No One Will Be Able To Guess"
> 
> Yeah I'll take a guess.


I can't look. If you're right, I think I'm going to be sick. Please don't let it be Ric. Please don't let it be Ric.  :Frown:   :Mad:

----------


## Master Man

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/10...-new-lover-dc/
> "Harley Quinn Has a New Lover at DC – One That No One Will Be Able To Guess"
> 
> Yeah I'll take a guess.


If it is Dick, honestly... I wouldn't mind.
... And the only way Dick would look twice in mass murderer Harley Quinn's direction is if he say, got shot in the head and messed up his memories... and well, luckily that's happened  :Wink:  and when Dick gets fixed he's left with conflicting feelings for Harley, the woman he knew and the woman she now is.

I'd read it.

----------


## Tzigone

> If it is Dick, honestly... I wouldn't mind.
> ... And the only way Dick would look twice in mass murderer Harley Quinn's direction is if he say, got shot in the head and messed up his memories... and well, luckily that's happened  and when Dick gets fixed he's left with conflicting feelings for Harley, the woman he knew and the woman she now is.
> 
> I'd read it.


I'd hate it.  But that means DC'd do it.  I'd hate it for any hero, mind you. 

But if someone claims to be the "only one" who ships it, I'd expect it to be outside the Batfam.

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing and Harley are Humphries two most recent characters. And didn't he write them together in that future/elseworlds Harley? I think I remember that being discussed here.

But obviously as a Nightwing fan, I'm likely to read into situations in a way where I would insert the character there.

----------


## Frontier

Yeah, I don't think there's any clear evidence it's Dick. 

I'm kind of surprised they're giving her a new love interest when they seem to be trying to so hard to push Harley and Ivy as an OTP.

----------


## Tzigone

> Yeah, I don't think there's any clear evidence it's Dick. 
> 
> I'm kind of surprised they're giving her a new love interest when they seem to be trying to so hard to push Harley and Ivy as an OTP.


I'd expect her to hook up with a member of the BoP (hate it, but expect it), but that wouldn't be applicable in this situation.

----------


## dropkickjake

I could support Dick/Harley as flirtatious frenemies. A relationship would require a full face turn for Harley, which isn't something DC seems likely to do.

----------


## Tzigone

> I could support Dick/Harley as flirtatious frenemies. A relationship would require a full face turn for Harley, which isn't something DC seems likely to do.


I like old-school Dick, who was way less flirtatious, and all about committed relationships. Indeed, I like it as contrast to Batman - Dick doesn't do the flirting with the villain or falling for villain thing (or the casual thing, back then).  But that was long ago and things have changed.

I pretty much always hate the hero/villain thing. BatCat just got grandfathered in because I shipped it young.  And because I like the non-killing Catwoman who went straight before they got involved (also no longer in continuity).

I also have very big aversion to heroes interacting in any sort of friendly way will murderous villains who kill innocents.  Hate it. Not even the platonic stuff is okay there.  There should be nothing at all friendly between a hero and someone like that.

----------


## Rac7d*

I miss midnighter




> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/10...-new-lover-dc/
> "Harley Quinn Has a New Lover at DC – One That No One Will Be Able To Guess"
> 
> Yeah I'll take a guess.


I feel the same way about this as I do when he hooks up with seline or Jason with Talia
Yuck



But this sceane has 11 million views so TO DC that equals what

Babs loosing her team, her man  as Harley assumes her place as Queen of Gotham
WW better lookout

----------


## Restingvoice

> I miss midnighter
> 
> 
> 
> I feel the same way about this as I do when he hooks up with seline or Jason with Talia
> Yuck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It only has 11M view because the title is Hot Harley Quinn scene. Since the dawn of Youtube people have been using cleavage in thumbnail to attract attention and it always works.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It only has 11M view because the title is Hot Harley Quinn scene. Since the dawn of Youtube people have been using cleavage in thumbnail to attract attention and it always works.


its animated?

----------


## Badou

I don't think it would be Dick. The character isn't really in the right place for it and they don't really have him date outside his bubble unless it is some forgettable original character. 

Plus the Harley Quinn solo book is more of a gag/comedy book, so it would be someone to set up a funny situation. It doesn't really do serious stories. So a random character like Jimmy Olsen, Darkseid, or Harvey Bullock could be it.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I don't think it would be Dick. The character isn't really in the right place for it and they don't really have him date outside his bubble unless it is some forgettable original character. 
> 
> Plus the Harley Quinn solo book is more of a gag/comedy book, so it would be someone to set up a funny situation. It doesn't really do serious stories. So a random character like Jimmy Olsen, Darkseid, or Harvey Bullock could be it.


Ship her with Lobo.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ship her with Lobo.


You just explained it, her book is a gag comedy, she already kissed Bruce and Batman in an issue, it’s not cannon so it could be nightwing

----------


## Ascended

Sure, if *could* be Dick. But it *could* be almost anyone. 

Dick and Harley do have certain things in common though. I actually talked about this in the "Dick's best love interest" thread; they're both former sidekicks to people who weren't always the best to them (as Bruce and Dick's relationship now has a lot of baggage to it), both are drawn to "the sexy bad ones" who feel a little dangerous, both need someone who can keep up with them (and damn few can). And especially right now with all the stupid Ric stuff, yeah I could see it happening.

Hell, maybe Dr. Quinn will be the one to save Ric. Wouldn't that be a kick in the balls; after more than a year of the Bat-clan keeping their distance it's Harley who gets Dick back to his old self. 

But I wouldn't start worrying about it. There's a whole mountain of characters Harley could start dating next. It's not even necessarily a man. Hey, didn't Diana and Steve break up recently?

----------


## Celgress

> Sure, if *could* be Dick. But it *could* be almost anyone....


I'm not adverse to DickxHarley but I am against RicxHarley or RicxAny Established Character *yuck*. My main objection being it'll likely keep Ric around even longer than he would otherwise be.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Sure, if *could* be Dick. But it *could* be almost anyone. 
> 
> Dick and Harley do have certain things in common though. I actually talked about this in the "Dick's best love interest" thread; they're both former sidekicks to people who weren't always the best to them (as Bruce and Dick's relationship now has a lot of baggage to it), both are drawn to "the sexy bad ones" who feel a little dangerous, both need someone who can keep up with them (and damn few can). And especially right now with all the stupid Ric stuff, yeah I could see it happening.
> 
> Hell, maybe Dr. Quinn will be the one to save Ric. Wouldn't that be a kick in the balls; after more than a year of the Bat-clan keeping their distance it's Harley who gets Dick back to his old self. 
> 
> But I wouldn't start worrying about it. There's a whole mountain of characters Harley could start dating next. It's not even necessarily a man. Hey, didn't Diana and Steve break up recently?


At least they fit in the same world, they have a better chance then him and kori

----------


## Restingvoice

The title is "Trapped inside Ric"

----------


## Godlike13

Id be ok with Ric/Harley only if she made him do her in front of the Bea chick.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Apparently by Next year there will be a New Wonder Woman, Superman & Batman. What are the chances Dick/Ric ends up with no comic book at all?

----------


## Pohzee

I'll be honest, the fact that BC reported on 5G before the 4 generations was announced makes it seem more legit to me. But it'd also make me rather upset. If we divide up by generations, its clear that Generation 3 and Generation 4 have not had their shots at prominence yet. Leapfrogging past them would be a huge disservice to these beloved characters who have been in print for 50+ years.

It'd also be ridiculous and shortsighted to end Gen 4 considering in runs 1/3 the length of any of the previous generations and 10 IRL years as opposed to the 30 or so of the other eras. Cutting a generation short so early would show diminishing returns, prompting shorter and shorter generations and turnarounds. If they had any commitment, we should stay in Gen 4 until at least 2030.

----------


## Tzigone

> I'll be honest, the fact that BC reported on 5G before the 4 generations was announced makes it seem more legit to me.


Can I get a link?  Haven't read it, as I tend to read discussion and only read news when someone links it in discussion.

----------


## Pohzee

> Can I get a link?  Haven't read it, as I tend to read discussion and only read news when someone links it in discussion.


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/06/13/dc-comics-5g/

----------


## Tzigone

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/06/13/dc-comics-5g/


Thanks.  So just a name with no context that we now have probable context for.  

I kind of agree with you on the short generations.  It seems to tie in with event-itis to me, but we can have event-itis without the generational shifts, of course.  And now everything must always be in flux - and I don't mean in a normal, storytelling kind of way.  It feel like new things keep getting thrown at us without the old ones being resolved or reacted to.  No new status quo is ever established, because as soon as one big, universe-wide event happen, another starts. Actually, sometimes we seem to have more than one going on at a time.

----------


## Badou

> Apparently by Next year there will be a New Wonder Woman, Superman & Batman. What are the chances Dick/Ric ends up with no comic book at all?


I don't think DC cares. He'll have his solo book in some capacity I bet, but it doesn't feel like he is a character anyone at DC is invested in right now. 

Though watch them have Dick lead the JL randomly after being treated as a joke to them. Since the only way they ever Dick in the JL is when they remove all the first gen heroes because Dick can never lead or even be on the same team as any of them.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't think DC cares. He'll have his solo book in some capacity I bet, but it doesn't feel like he is a character anyone at DC is invested in right now. 
> 
> Though watch them have Dick lead the JL randomly after being treated as a joke to them. Since the only way they ever Dick in the JL is when they remove all the first gen heroes because Dick can never lead or even be on the same team as any of them.


but Luke will be Batman. Traditionally whoever will be Batman will be the one involved with the League. Even Bunny Gordon got a chance, even if it's only one issue in Detective Comics.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't think DC cares. He'll have his solo book in some capacity I bet, but it doesn't feel like he is a character anyone at DC is invested in right now. 
> 
> Though watch them have Dick lead the JL randomly after being treated as a joke to them. Since the only way they ever Dick in the JL is when they remove all the first gen heroes because Dick can never lead or even be on the same team as any of them.


Its proably in their best intrest to diversify, It just that luke been MIA for so long, 
Here i thought Nightwing was coming back next spring, no one would pass on dick being batman     I mean Battle for the Cowl is a whole big stink on this

----------


## yohyoi

With all the bad decisions DC has been doing, let's be thankful for old comics. New Teen Titans, Dixon and Tomasi Nightwing, 90s Titans, etc. There is a lot of great old comics about our favorite character. If you are having a hard time introducing new people to present comic books, use the old ones. These stories are timeless. Even now I can't find a present comic book that could stand with the impressive intrigue and drama of the New Teen Titans. My one cent on enjoying comic books.

----------


## Rac7d*

> With all the bad decisions DC has been doing, let's be thankful for old comics. New Teen Titans, Dixon and Tomasi Nightwing, 90s Titans, etc. There is a lot of great old comics about our favorite character. If you are having a hard time introducing new people to present comic books, use the old ones. These stories are timeless. Even now I can't find a present comic book that could stand with the impressive intrigue and drama of the New Teen Titans. My one cent on enjoying comic books.


The best way to introduce new people to comic books is with New media
Tiitans has been my only consistent space for dick grayson withing the last year and he keeps getting better

----------


## Jackalope89

> The best way to introduce new people to comic books is with New media
> Tiitans has been my only consistent space for dick grayson withing the last year and he keeps getting better


Although certainly a darker take on many of the characters, it is pretty good. And we can't forget Young Justice (animated series) either. Dick is almost always in a central role in the series.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

I think both yohyoi and Rac7d* make great points that should be combined. It's the new media that will bring folks to the table; the classics need to be available for the ones who want to explore further.

----------


## Restingvoice

According to Newsarama twitter 2 days ago, the most read comics in DC Universe app is DC Universe Rebirth #1 followed by Wolfman Perez classic New Teen Titans

Not surprising considering the people who subscribe to that app do it for Titans

----------


## Blue22

> The best way to introduce new people to comic books is with New media
> Tiitans has been my only consistent space for dick grayson withing the last year and he keeps getting better


That fight gives me chills every time I watch it. Dick and Kory are consistently the best characters in this show.

Take notes DCEU. This show is how you do a darker tone while still staying (mostly) true to the characters. They're grittier. They're different. But he still feels like Dick. She still feels like Kory. The only one who feels off to me is Gar.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I'll be honest, the fact that BC reported on 5G before the 4 generations was announced makes it seem more legit to me. But it'd also make me rather upset. If we divide up by generations, its clear that Generation 3 and Generation 4 have not had their shots at prominence yet. Leapfrogging past them would be a huge disservice to these beloved characters who have been in print for 50+ years.
> 
> It'd also be ridiculous and shortsighted to end Gen 4 considering in runs 1/3 the length of any of the previous generations and 10 IRL years as opposed to the 30 or so of the other eras. Cutting a generation short so early would show diminishing returns, prompting shorter and shorter generations and turnarounds. If they had any commitment, we should stay in Gen 4 until at least 2030.


The most prominent characters in Gen 4 will still be relevant in Gen 5. Younger characters like Damian, Jackson, Wallace, and Emiko should be older but still in the range for the Teen Titans. Tim, Cassie, Cass, Lorena, these characters will be the adults. Then there's the rumoured new Batman and Superman (and apparently WW, AM, Flash, etc. lol).

It sucks but Gen 2 characters like Dick and Wally are old. They may have been treated incredibly poorly in recent years in favour of their more boring predecessors, but that's how it is. BC keeps saying "your grandfather's DC" or something like that, and when I think about... they're right lmao. My dad would've been the one to have read NTT as it was being published, not me. The world is not going to lose out on so much if Bruce, Dick, and everyone else takes a step back since their classic stories will still be as relevant as ever*. The idea that DC is finally going to move on from the Silver Age is a surprising one, but a good one imo. The DCU could use an update. Let's just see if and how long it sticks.

*We've got Teen Titans GO! still going strong, Titans, YJ, and several Teen Titans graphic novels, as well as a Dick Grayson one, so these characters still have a lot of story being told elsewhere.

----------


## Blue22

> *We've got Teen Titans GO! still going strong, Titans, YJ, and several Teen Titans graphic novels, as well as a Dick Grayson one, so these characters still have a lot of story being told elsewhere.


I wouldn't suggest that first one to someone who's interested in seeing more Dick Grayson. That show is already kinda hit or miss but he's the one part of it that is *always* bad XD

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I wouldn't suggest that first to someone who's interested in seeing more Dick Grayson. That show is already kinda hit or miss but he's the one part of it that is *always* bad XD


Fair enough, it's not exactly my kind of show either but I have several younger cousins who've grown up major Robin fans entirely due to the show. They even know who Nightwing is because of his rare appearances on it lol. If DC Universe actually went international, I'd be able to legally show them 2003 Teen Titans episodes and prep them for Young Justice but apparently WB hates everyone outside of the US lmao.

----------


## Arsenal

> I'll be honest, the fact that BC reported on 5G before the 4 generations was announced makes it seem more legit to me. But it'd also make me rather upset. If we divide up by generations, its clear that Generation 3 and Generation 4 have not had their shots at prominence yet. Leapfrogging past them would be a huge disservice to these beloved characters who have been in print for 50+ years.
> 
> It'd also be ridiculous and shortsighted to end Gen 4 considering in runs 1/3 the length of any of the previous generations and 10 IRL years as opposed to the 30 or so of the other eras. Cutting a generation short so early would show diminishing returns, prompting shorter and shorter generations and turnarounds. If they had any commitment, we should stay in Gen 4 until at least 2030.


I definitely agree that it's way to soon for them to do a Gen 5, especially when feels like we've barely even established a Gen 4 (that could last) at all.

----------


## Frontier

> The most prominent characters in Gen 4 will still be relevant in Gen 5. Younger characters like Damian, Jackson, Wallace, and Emiko should be older but still in the range for the Teen Titans. Tim, Cassie, Cass, Lorena, these characters will be the adults. Then there's the rumoured new Batman and Superman (and apparently WW, AM, Flash, etc. lol).
> 
> It sucks but Gen 2 characters like Dick and Wally are old. They may have been treated incredibly poorly in recent years in favour of their more boring predecessors, but that's how it is. BC keeps saying "your grandfather's DC" or something like that, and when I think about... they're right lmao. My dad would've been the one to have read NTT as it was being published, not me. The world is not going to lose out on so much if Bruce, Dick, and everyone else takes a step back since their classic stories will still be as relevant as ever*. The idea that DC is finally going to move on from the Silver Age is a surprising one, but a good one imo. The DCU could use an update. Let's just see if and how long it sticks.
> 
> *We've got Teen Titans GO! still going strong, Titans, YJ, and several Teen Titans graphic novels, as well as a Dick Grayson one, so these characters still have a lot of story being told elsewhere.


I mean, they've moved on from the Silver Age in many respects. Even their attempts at returning to Silver Age concepts led to progressive changes to the franchise (look at Hal Jordan and the Emotional Spectrum). 

Trying to outright replace all the A-listers in current continuty just seems doomed to fail, which is why I just can't imagine they're going to do it to the main line.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The most prominent characters in Gen 4 will still be relevant in Gen 5. Younger characters like Damian, Jackson, Wallace, and Emiko should be older but still in the range for the Teen Titans. Tim, Cassie, Cass, Lorena, these characters will be the adults. Then there's the rumoured new Batman and Superman (and apparently WW, AM, Flash, etc. lol).
> 
> It sucks but Gen 2 characters like Dick and Wally are old. They may have been treated incredibly poorly in recent years in favour of their more boring predecessors, but that's how it is. BC keeps saying "your grandfather's DC" or something like that, and when I think about... they're right lmao. My dad would've been the one to have read NTT as it was being published, not me. The world is not going to lose out on so much if Bruce, Dick, and everyone else takes a step back since their classic stories will still be as relevant as ever*. The idea that DC is finally going to move on from the Silver Age is a surprising one, but a good one imo. The DCU could use an update. Let's just see if and how long it sticks.
> 
> *We've got Teen Titans GO! still going strong, Titans, YJ, and several Teen Titans graphic novels, as well as a Dick Grayson one, so these characters still have a lot of story being told elsewhere.


They spent so much time holding thease character back and not allowing them to grow up dick and babs should be married by now but people can’t progress

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean, they've moved on from the Silver Age in many respects. Even their attempts at returning to Silver Age concepts led to progressive changes to the franchise (look at Hal Jordan and the Emotional Spectrum). 
> 
> Trying to outright replace all the A-listers in current continuity just seems doomed to fail, which is why I just can't imagine they're going to do it to the mainline.


They'll do it, but they'll be back again.

----------


## Pohzee

> The most prominent characters in Gen 4 will still be relevant in Gen 5. Younger characters like Damian, Jackson, Wallace, and Emiko should be older but still in the range for the Teen Titans. Tim, Cassie, Cass, Lorena, these characters will be the adults. Then there's the rumoured new Batman and Superman (and apparently WW, AM, Flash, etc. lol).
> 
> It sucks but Gen 2 characters like Dick and Wally are old. They may have been treated incredibly poorly in recent years in favour of their more boring predecessors, but that's how it is. BC keeps saying "your grandfather's DC" or something like that, and when I think about... they're right lmao. My dad would've been the one to have read NTT as it was being published, not me. The world is not going to lose out on so much if Bruce, Dick, and everyone else takes a step back since their classic stories will still be as relevant as ever*. The idea that DC is finally going to move on from the Silver Age is a surprising one, but a good one imo. The DCU could use an update. Let's just see if and how long it sticks.
> 
> *We've got Teen Titans GO! still going strong, Titans, YJ, and several Teen Titans graphic novels, as well as a Dick Grayson one, so these characters still have a lot of story being told elsewhere.


Dick never reached a satisfying narrative climax. His growth to Nightwing was a monumental moment in the comics industry and he lead their best selling title. Then he floundered and was turned back into a sidekick. He has like one good solo story. Itd be like going out with a whimper. If this wouldve happened after DickBats it wouldve been satisfying, but hes been demoted and regressed, never given the narrative priority to justify closing the door just yet. Id be satisfied with moving on from Bruce, at this point I dont like what his mythos has become, but Dick isnt there yet.

----------


## Frontier

> Dick never reached a satisfying narrative climax. His growth to Nightwing was a monumental moment in the comics industry and he lead their best selling title. Then he floundered and was turned back into a sidekick. He has like one good solo story. It’d be like going out with a whimper. If this would’ve happened after DickBats it would’ve been satisfying, but he’s been demoted and regressed, never given the narrative priority to justify closing the door just yet. I’d be satisfied with moving on from Bruce, at this point I don’t like what his mythos has become, but Dick isn’t there yet.


To be honest, any Batman would have to inherit what the mythos has become even if it's not Bruce.

----------


## Godlike13

Being the new Batman is just a overdone stunt at this point. Dick is better served trying to find that good story and earning more narrative priority as Nightwing or Grayson. Which is hard when the comic department heads see Dick as a threat, and so purposely sabotage the character and listen to terrible, bottom of the charts, old creators like Lobdell with him. Still at this point i'd rather they continue to try and develop his own narrative path then go down the temporary Batman path again.

----------


## Pohzee

> To be honest, any Batman would have to inherit what the mythos has become even if it's not Bruce.


Idk why, but I'd be more willing to accept it from anyone else.

----------


## Jackalope89

Shoehorning in a character that's been MIA from the Bat-Books for some time now into arguably the biggest role in DC? Ugh.

Dick I can understand not putting him there again. Tim, eh, his "Batman" never seems to go over very well, Damian is too young (and small), and I doubt Duke is interested. Jason, oddly enough, was a Batman on another Earth, even a member of the Justice League, without being all grimdark. But right now, and for the forseeable future, it doesn't seem to be in his deck either.

Frankly, I'd rather Nightwing, Wally Flash, Donna Troy (no codename needed), Tempest, Omen, and some of the OG Titans pick up the mantle of the League as their own aliases.

----------


## Pohzee

Half of the Fab Five sucking so hard is probably why DC would never allow for Dick and his generation to step forward. But there are other characters that could join them rather than just making the League Abnett's Titans run.

----------


## Godlike13

Screw mantles. Dick's gen needs to ditch that mentality. Otherwise everyhing they do will be looked at as a stepping stone or an in between.

----------


## Badou

I really don't know how you separate it from them at at this point. Everything they do is already looked at being less than the gen above them in every single way. It has been like that for decades. They will always be compared to their mentors and will always lose out to them. They will never be treated as equals. 

Dick as Batman again for a bit would at least mean DC probably will put some talent on his book, and maybe it could springboard into something else when he goes back to Nightwing. The New 52 complete botched the transition back to Nightwing and maybe they could have a shot at doing it right. Won't happen as DC and the writers all seem to not want to redo what Morrison did.

----------


## Godlike13

Talent like Tynion? The current Bat office can't recruit for shit even for Batman, and like you said Batman Reborn, as good as it was, did jack crap to spring board him into anything after. They don't want to springboard the character to begin with. And not only do they probably not want to redo what Morrison did, as Batman reborn wasn't that long ago, it would be very hard to even come close to what Morrison did. First because Morrison is Morrison, and second cause the introduction of Damian complimented the idea so well. So unless they are getting Morrison to come back to really make Dick and Damian the new Batman and Robin for the next decade, im good with Dick not being Batman again for a summer. Cause i don't think it would lead to anything for him after, and right now i think he would be better served trying to develop him more independently and with more distance from Batman. Though of course they aren't doing that either, and he'll likely just continue to be buried further and further under lazy old creators with last minute poorly thought out ideas.

----------


## Ascended

> I really don't know how you separate it from them at at this point. Everything they do is already looked at being less than the gen above them in every single way. It has been like that for decades. They will always be compared to their mentors and will always lose out to them. They will never be treated as equals.


They'll never be treated as equals no, but neither is anyone else. 

The Titans generation doesn't have to be viewed as equals to the Trinity and League (in-universe they should be perhaps, but we all know fandom and editorial will never actually treat them that way), they just have to find their own unique niche. If all Nightwing does is protect a grimy, dank city and fight gangs, mob bosses, and psychos, then he's never going to be seen as much beyond a second tier Batman. But if Dick is doing something completely different, where his narrative isn't in direct comparison to Bruce's, then he can be viewed as the king of his particular niche. People won't really consider him Bruce's equal, but by serving a different role Dick can become as much an equal as anyone can. No one truly considers Ray Palmer to be Bruce's equal, but Ray at least gets to be the best at what he does. That's all Dick, Roy, Donna, Wally, etc, need.

----------


## yohyoi

Let's be real. DC has no plans for Dick and his gen. He doesn't even technically have a gen, since he is part of gen 2 with Superman, Batman, etc. He will be old when they age up everyone. I want to be hopeful but let's be realistic. For the past year, we got Ric and the Titans butchered. It will also last for another 6 months or more. If we can't get the message then DC would continue fooling us the fans. Even if they bring back Nightwing, I won't buy the issue. The only time I will come back is if we get another Black Mirror. Then I will buy the tpb. But I won't support this garbage DC calls comics.

----------


## Pohzee

Here’s the thing: Nightwing is the same age as Batwing. He’s not going anywhere. I know this talk about Jon becoming Superman (And Teen Lantern becoming Green Lantern?) Seems to make it sound like all current adults are going to the retirement home, but that’s not going to happen.

----------


## Restingvoice

Golden Age Detective Comics #38
The 80s Secret Origin 
Dark Victory
Robin Year One
Nightwing Year One
The Judas Contract
All-Star Batman and Robin
New 52 Nightwing #0
New 52 Secret Origins #1
New 52 Secret Origins #8
Schumacher's Batman Forever
BTAS Robin Reckoning
Titans episode... something

Have I missed any Dick Grayson origin? Now that I list it there's a lot.
Does he have a different one in silver or bronze age?
Which one doesn't have Batjerk?

----------


## Pohzee

Batman Year Three

I also think The Gauntlet is more of an origin than Robin: Year One

----------


## Frontier

> Golden Age Detective Comics #38
> The 80s Secret Origin 
> Dark Victory
> Robin Year One
> Nightwing Year One
> The Judas Contract
> All-Star Batman and Robin
> New 52 Nightwing #0
> New 52 Secret Origins #1
> ...


_The Batman_ - "A Matter of Family." 

I think there was also an issue of the _Young Justice_ tie-in comic that outright showed Dick's origin (and that The Flying Graysons were a whole troupe of Graysons instead of just Dick and his parents) but I forget which issue it was. 

Am I mis-remembering the finale for season one of the _Teen Titans_ cartoon showing someone falling from a trapeze while going through Dick's memories? I know there was a scene of Dick taking the oath in the Batcave.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Batman Year Three
> 
> I also think The Gauntlet is more of an origin than Robin: Year One





> _The Batman_ - "A Matter of Family." 
> 
> I think there was also an issue of the _Young Justice_ tie-in comic that outright showed Dick's origin (and that The Flying Graysons were a whole troupe of Graysons instead of just Dick and his parents) but I forget which issue it was. 
> 
> Am I mis-remembering the finale for season one of the _Teen Titans_ cartoon showing someone falling from a trapeze while going through Dick's memories? I know there was a scene of Dick taking the oath in the Batcave.


Oh yeah

The Batman is the one where Bruce is really young, and actually drawn really young, right? What's the one where it's 3D and he partners with Katana?

I never watched Teen Titans cartoon so can't confirm

So Batjerk. I only know ASBAR and Nightwing Year One.
I don't think I can count BTAS since I'm not clear if he decided to hire the criminal from the beginning or because Dick punched him. Wait... he knocked up Babs later, so even though it wasn't tied to his origin, I'm gonna count it.
I'm gonna count Robin Year One because even if Dick did ignore his order and caused a man's death, Bruce also fired him without any explanation that he did it because he doesn't want him to experience that kinda thing again, leaving Dick to feel guilty about everything, the man's death and disappointing Bruce/Batman.

Next question, how old was he in every origin?

----------


## Jackalope89

> _The Batman_ - "A Matter of Family." 
> 
> I think there was also an issue of the _Young Justice_ tie-in comic that outright showed Dick's origin (and that The Flying Graysons were a whole troupe of Graysons instead of just Dick and his parents) but I forget which issue it was. 
> 
> Am I mis-remembering the finale for season one of the _Teen Titans_ cartoon showing someone falling from a trapeze while going through Dick's memories? I know there was a scene of Dick taking the oath in the Batcave.


Can't remember the season, but those did happen.

And Restingvoice, I recommend Teen Titans. Its goofy a lot of the time, but it also has some good character development, overarching plots, and its own spin on iconic Teen Titan stories.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Can't remember the season, but those did happen.
> 
> And Restingvoice, I recommend Teen Titans. Its goofy a lot of the time, but it also has some good character development, overarching plots, and its own spin on iconic Teen Titan stories.


Oh. Yeah, I know I'm gonna watch it someday because it's iconic, but I also have been avoiding it because that series art was in the middle of that awkward Amerimanga style period where American studios wanted to do anime or anime-inspired, animation but they don't really know how to do it properly, so the result is still kinda cringe. It's not as bad as Totally Spies where they just randomly put extreme anime expression in every scene, but it's not yet as good as Avatar.

Age roll call. The one that I remember.
Trapeze Training - 5
Golden Age origin - 8
Post Crisis origin? - 10?
Birthday Batplane - 10
ASBAR - 12
Silver Age - 12-13? There's a school dance
Late silver age - 14-15?
New 52 Zero Year - 15
New 52 Robin - 16
Bronze beginning - 16-17?
BTAS Sub Zero - high school graduate
Hudson period - 18
Batman Forever - college student
NTT - college dropout
New 52 Nightwing - 21
Rebirth Nightwing - mid-20s

Add more.

----------


## Frontier

> The Batman is the one where Bruce is really young, and actually drawn really young, right? *What's the one where it's 3D and he partners with Katana?*


_Beware the Batman. 
_

----------


## Frontier

> Can't remember the season, but those did happen.


Come to think of it it might have been that episode where Robin is hallucinating seeing Slade all the time and Raven peers into his mind...I think that was in season 3? It was before Trigon revived Slade.

----------


## Robanker

> They'll never be treated as equals no, but neither is anyone else. 
> 
> The Titans generation doesn't have to be viewed as equals to the Trinity and League (in-universe they should be perhaps, but we all know fandom and editorial will never actually treat them that way), they just have to find their own unique niche. If all Nightwing does is protect a grimy, dank city and fight gangs, mob bosses, and psychos, then he's never going to be seen as much beyond a second tier Batman. But if Dick is doing something completely different, where his narrative isn't in direct comparison to Bruce's, then he can be viewed as the king of his particular niche. People won't really consider him Bruce's equal, but by serving a different role Dick can become as much an equal as anyone can. No one truly considers Ray Palmer to be Bruce's equal, but Ray at least gets to be the best at what he does. That's all Dick, Roy, Donna, Wally, etc, need.


He already has that niche, dude. He's the best at getting put on the chopping block and narrowly avoiding death each event season.

You're right, though. He's often referred to as among the most trusted, well-connected and overall beloved in the entire cape community. Maybe start a new volume of The Brave and the Bold or DC Comics Presents with him as the anchor. New partner each issue! That may help them stall any actual development until the find the right writer or pitch to relaunch Nightwing proper.

----------


## WonderNight

> He already has that niche, dude. He's the best at getting put on the chopping block and narrowly avoiding death each event season.
> 
> You're right, though. He's often referred to as among the most trusted, well-connected and overall beloved in the entire cape community. Maybe start a new volume of The Brave and the Bold or DC Comics Presents with him as the anchor. New partner each issue! That may help them stall any actual development until the find the right writer or pitch to relaunch Nightwing proper.


well that's what I feel nightwing should be. A globetrotting action adventure hero with regular team ups. Not this batman lite/ adult Robin B.S that makes him irrelevant.

----------


## Aahz

> Age roll call. The one that I remember.
> Trapeze Training - 5
> Golden Age origin - 8
> Post Crisis origin? - 10?
> Birthday Batplane - 10
> ASBAR - 12
> Silver Age - 12-13? There's a school dance
> Late silver age - 14-15?
> New 52 Zero Year - 15
> ...


- Golden Age Origin Birthday Batplane are debatable, that age 8 was clearly mentioned the first time in the 80s in NTT afaik. And in his Silver AGe Orgin Story retelling he said to be a teenager
- He was allready arround 15 in the late Golden age, about 16-18 in the late silver age
- Bronze beginning and Hudson period  is the same (Dick leaving Gotham for University and Bruce moving from the Manor to the Penthouse is sually seen as the start of the Bronze Age in Batman Comics), which made him 18 at that time
- He was 19 when he became Nightwing
- He was roughly 21 when Tim appeared

----------


## Restingvoice

> - Golden Age Origin Birthday Batplane are debatable, that age 8 was clearly mentioned the first time in the 80s in NTT afaik. And in his Silver AGe Orgin Story retelling he said to be a teenager
> - He was allready arround 15 in the late Golden age, about 16-18 in the late silver age
> - Bronze beginning and Hudson period  is the same (Dick leaving Gotham for University and Bruce moving from the Manor to the Penthouse is sually seen as the start of the Bronze Age in Batman Comics), which made him 18 at that time
> - He was 19 when he became Nightwing
> - He was roughly 21 when Tim appeared


The birthday spank was 10 times, and the story was published 2 years after his debut. Oh, so the 80s mentioned it too? Devin Grayson mentioned it too, I don't know which issue. Bruce's parents often died at 8 too up until at least the 80s, also Rebirth, and they like to make it match.

Wait really? He still looks so small. 

I can see him being 16-17 in the late silver age, that's when I see that he's bigger. 

I thought early Bronze he's younger because he looks smaller when Barbara debuted. Was that after college?

Age roll call. The one that I remember. Plus updates
Trapeze Training - 5
Golden Age origin - 8
The 80s Origin - 8
Post Crisis origin? - 10?
Birthday Batplane - 10
ASBAR - 12
Silver age origin - teenager
Silver Age - 13-14?
Late Golden Age - 15
New 52 Zero Year - 15
New 52 Robin - 16
Late silver age - 16-17?
BTAS Sub Zero - high school graduate
Hudson period - 18
Batman Forever - college student
NTT - college dropout - so he's in college only for a year or was he still studying when he became Nightwing?
Judas Contract Nightwing - 19
New 52 Nightwing - 21
A wild Drake appeared - 21?
Rebirth Nightwing - mid-20s

How old was he when he became the grown-up Robin or that weird Batman Robin hybrid in JSA?

----------


## Aahz

> The birthday spank was 10 times, and the story was published 2 years after his debut. Oh, so the 80s mentioned it too?


But he had also 13 or 14 candels on his cake, and he got a plane for his Birthday.






> I thought early Bronze he's younger because he looks smaller when Barbara debuted. Was that after college?


 I'm not sure which  comics you are referring to. Barbara Appered first in the late silver age when Dick was still in his teens (15 or 16) and was much shorter then her.

The Bronze Age stated in 1969 when Dick left Gotham for Hudson and Barbra became congress woman and iirc Dick stayed in collage during the 70s, and didn't drop out untill the 80s shortly before joining the new Teen Titans.




> Silver age origin - teenager
> Silver Age - 13-14?
> Late Golden Age - 15


Late Golden Age happend before Silver Age (there was no break in continuity for Batman) do Dick would have still been 15 arround that time




> How old was he when he became the grown-up Robin or that weird Batman Robin hybrid in JSA?


In the later Earth Two JSA Stories Time was supposed to pass in real time, with Earth  Two Dick being born in 1928.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Oh and also Earth-1 Robin was officially 15 and the oldest in the Fab Four team when he first starred in The Brave and the Bold.

----------


## Aahz

@ Restingvoice

If you wan't look into the Batfamily ages, you can find here a text with what I could find in the comics, with all the sources.
It covers everyting from the Golden Age to the current comics.

----------


## Tzigone

> @ Restingvoice
> 
> If you wan't look into the Batfamily ages, you can find here a text with what I could find in the comics, with all the sources.
> It covers everyting from the Golden Age to the current comics.


I just wanted to say that this is awesome.  But I would disagree on Barbara being a congresswoman before 25 due to accelerated schooling.  The Constitution requires members of the House of Representatives to be 25.  Article I, Section 2 "No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen."

Edit: Also, have you done any of these for any more characters/families? Obviously, the Bats are prime material, but just thought I'd ask.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Being the new Batman is just a overdone stunt at this point. Dick is better served trying to find that good story and earning more narrative priority as Nightwing or Grayson. Which is hard when the comic department heads see Dick as a threat, and so purposely sabotage the character and listen to terrible, bottom of the charts, old creators like Lobdell with him. Still at this point i'd rather they continue to try and develop his own narrative path then go down the temporary Batman path again.


thhhhhiiiiiiisssssssss

When JPV or Dick took over it felt special. Someone else wearing the cowl at this point makes me roll my eyes.

----------


## cc008

Would you guys suggest diving into the Rebirth Titans stuff for more Nightwing reading?

----------


## Drako

> Would you guys suggest diving into the Rebirth Titans stuff for more Nightwing reading?


Dan Abnett did not wrote the best Nightwing during his run with the Titans.

Actually, he didn't wrote a good Titans book, period. He started okay with the Wally arc and went downhill soon after. Its double frustrating if you are fan of Nightwing and the Titans in general.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Would you guys suggest diving into the Rebirth Titans stuff for more Nightwing reading?


Nightwing is not the star of that book despite being the leader and it’s not a bad thing either, 
Things go south by the troia arc

----------


## Badou

> Would you guys suggest diving into the Rebirth Titans stuff for more Nightwing reading?


I'm on record saying that Abnett's Dick Grayson in Titans is arguably the worst written version of the character I've ever read. I wouldn't recommend that Titans series in general, but especially if you are looking to read more Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But he had also 13 or 14 candels on his cake, and he got a plane for his Birthday.
> 
> 
> 
>  I'm not sure which  comics you are referring to. Barbara Appered first in the late silver age when Dick was still in his teens (15 or 16) and was much shorter then her.
> 
> The Bronze Age stated in 1969 when Dick left Gotham for Hudson and Barbra became congress woman and iirc Dick stayed in collage during the 70s, and didn't drop out untill the 80s shortly before joining the new Teen Titans.
> 
> Late Golden Age happend before Silver Age (there was no break in continuity for Batman) do Dick would have still been 15 arround that time
> ...


Yeah I remember the candles are 13-14 but since it's 2 years after the publication date I count it as 10
I thought when Babs appeared it's already Bronze Age. I've been counting Bronze since she appeared instead of Dick going to Hudson.
Earth 2 is Golden Age, right? So he should be 12 when he first debuted in the 1940?




> Oh and also Earth-1 Robin was officially 15 and the oldest in the Fab Four team when he first starred in The Brave and the Bold.


Huh... but just for fun... was Roy older than everyone when he appeared? He seems older





> @ Restingvoice
> 
> If you wan't look into the Batfamily ages, you can find here a text with what I could find in the comics, with all the sources.
> It covers everyting from the Golden Age to the current comics.


Thank you
...Ah ship I haven't used Dropbox for years I forget my password

----------


## Aahz

> Thank you
> ...Ah ship I haven't used Dropbox for years I forget my password


You should be able to download it without having a drop box account.

----------


## cc008

> Nightwing is not the star of that book despite being the leader and its not a bad thing either, 
> Things go south by the troia arc






> Dan Abnett did not wrote the best Nightwing during his run with the Titans.
> 
> Actually, he didn't wrote a good Titans book, period. He started okay with the Wally arc and went downhill soon after. Its double frustrating if you are fan of Nightwing and the Titans in general.





> I'm on record saying that Abnett's Dick Grayson in Titans is arguably the worst written version of the character I've ever read. I wouldn't recommend that Titans series in general, but especially if you are looking to read more Nightwing.


Noted!! I will steer clear of Titans and just backtrack from New 52.  Thank you all!

----------


## Jackalope89

Well, the first arc isn't bad, especially the reunion of Wally with the others, but yeah. Overall, best to avoid it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Noted!! I will steer clear of Titans and just backtrack from New 52.  Thank you all!


There are some highlights, the annual the first 10 issues, it’s been a long time since we have seen the fab 5 together and who knows when we will ever again. It’s fun to see them being happy.  It nice to see him in non bat relations

----------


## Zaresh

> Well, the first arc isn't bad, especially the reunion of Wally with the others, but yeah. Overall, best to avoid it.


The issue with Wally and Supes was pretty good. It was warm, I guess.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The issue with Wally and Supes was pretty good. It was warm, I guess.


Brief as it was, it was a good moment.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

my own personal opinion but I really liked Abnett's Titans(Fab 5 run) better than any other iteration of Titans/Teen Titans so far. Grayson's run didn't do it for me, I really don't care about the Wolfman run and the TT series that run with the default crowd of Robin/BB/Raven/Starfire/Cyborg had made me hate Titans.

This modern run with the Fab 5 has been my fav so far. But if I had to rank TT/Titans I'd prob go John's - Abnett - Glass

----------


## Badou

It still blows my mind that people actually liked Abnett's Titans book beyond just nostalgia. I really thought the series was absolute garbage.

----------


## Godlike13

Even for nostalgia purposes it was shit. I don't remember those characters being losers who bend over to the JL. The book is a complete waste of time. It accomplished absolutely nothing, and the team and all the characters involve were left worse off after.

----------


## Drako

> Even for nostalgia purposes it was shit. I don't remember those characters being losers who the bend over to the JL. The book is a complete waste of time. It accomplished absolutely nothing, and the team and all the characters involve were left worse off after.


Yeah, that "Grounded" arc made me hate his book even more.

----------


## Blue22

I enjoyed Abnett's Titans at first. It didn't start to fall apart for me until the League talked Dick into disbanding his own team and starting up a new one on their terms. That was just all kinds of wrong. The Titans (especially the adult ones) do not bend to the whims of the Justice League. They don't work for them. They're not their sidekicks anymore. They're their own team who can't just be ordered to disband. That whole issue left such a bad taste in my mouth.

And I can't even be mad at just Dick. Everyone else went along with it too. They could have kept going without him.

----------


## Drako

I'll never, ever, forget Batman saying "Go to your room" to Donna. 

Or Roy saying they need to call the Big Guns like the Justice League because the job was out of their league.

Or Dick asking "Are you disapointed in me?" to Batman.

In a Titans Book!

----------


## Frontier

> I'll never, ever, forget Batman saying "Go to your room" to Donna. 
> 
> Or Roy saying they need to call the Big Guns like the Justice League because the job was out of their league.
> 
> Or Dick asking "Are you disapointed in me?" to Batman.
> 
> In a Titans Book!


Then he acted like the problem was that they were all best friends...

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> I enjoyed Abnett's Titans at first. It didn't start to fall apart for me until the League talked Dick into disbanding his own team and starting up a new one on their terms. That was just all kinds of wrong. The Titans (especially the adult ones) do not bend to the whims of the Justice League. They don't work for them. They're not their sidekicks anymore. They're their own team who can't just be ordered to disband. That whole issue left such a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> And I can't even be mad at just Dick. Everyone else went along with it too. They could have kept going without him.



To be fair, Dick actually dictated the terms of the new Titans to the JL. But you are right on the rest of it. It made little sense.

----------


## Badou

Even before Abnett's second Titans series the series was garbage going all the way back to Titans Hunt. It never had a strong direction, the relationships and characterizations were so shallow, and Dick was incompetent at every turn. I still remember that scene in Titans Hunt where Dick ran away in terror from seeing super powered people fighting, lol. He wrote such an awful Dick, Donna, and Wally. It is crazy how Dick and Donna basically had zero panel time together and no one complained about it too. Just so many problems. 




> To be fair, Dick actually dictated the terms of the new Titans to the JL. But you are right on the rest of it. It made little sense.


I don't think he did. He confronted Bruce, Clark, and Diana about how he was going to start a new Titans team and he didn't need their approval, but then in the process of "telling off" the JL Dick basically gave in to everything the JL wanted for his new team. They wanted him to move the JL into the JL Headquarters to be overseen by the JL and Dick did it, then the JL wanted Dick to add Miss Martian to his team so she could watch over the team for the JL and he did it, and finally they made Dick take all the blame for the last Titans team disbanding. Dick's whole "telling off" the JL was a sham and he gave into every demand they set up when he had ZERO reason to agree to any of it. It was pathetic.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

The only flaws I've found with Abnett's Titans was just the team split up(if you ignore everything past the second annual it becomes ok) and Wally's 3 deaths. Other than that I found it to be a good run.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I lost interest in Abnett's Titans run when the first Big Bad was Abra Kadabra and the follow ups were the Fearsome Five (who were at least Titans villains, but hardly the cream of the crop).

A glance at things that came afterward makes me confident that I made the right call. Book was hot garbage.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You should be able to download it without having a drop box account.


Got em. Thanks. 

I lost interest in Abnett's Titans when they're doing the Titans vs League... Again. I know it's a tradition, but it's a tradition for teenagers, not adults! 

I know nothing about Abra, but he's quite interesting in that his power's pretty broken if you don't have Wally, so he's quite a threat. 

The Fearsome Five though, despite having a mind reader... isn't really... Psi-Mon is the only one that seems to be a threat. The rest... I already forget... and I just wasn't interested in... whatever story they're trying to tell. Already forget.

----------


## Ascended

The Fearsome Five are one of those threats that should have been a challenge for the Titans when they were all kids. Now, I would expect almost any NTT to be capable of taking down the group by themselves. Might be a tough fight for the hero but most of them should be able to do it by themselves now. 

Vic and Wally especially. They're both far more powerful than they used to be. Dick's far more experienced too, and if he fought gnarly villain groups as Batman he should be able to defeat the Five on his own now, even if they vastly out-power him.

----------


## Aahz

> The Fearsome Five though, despite having a mind reader... isn't really... Psi-Mon is the only one that seems to be a threat. The rest... I already forget... and I just wasn't interested in... whatever story they're trying to tell. Already forget.


Mamoth and Shimmer were iirc quite powerfull originally...

----------


## Rac7d*

> To be fair, Dick actually dictated the terms of the new Titans to the JL. But you are right on the rest of it. It made little sense.


Dictated terms he knew they agree too, and then he was given a moniter, its so disrespectful

----------


## Ascended

> Mamoth and Shimmer were iirc quite powerfull originally...


They were. Shimmer especially was quite a powerhouse as I recall. Psimon was one of the more powerful psychics in the DCU too, once upon a time.

The thing with the Five though, is that they're all one-trick ponies. They have one skillset, and if you can counter that they've got little to fall back on except each other. And if you can counter all (or even most) of them? They've got nothing at all to fall back on. 

Its like when people compare Superman and Hulk. Hulk has one gimmick; he's stupid ass strong. And it serves him well, dont get me wrong. Clark however, has a ton of other skills and abilities he can use. Trying to figure out how to get around Hulk is a lot easier than trying to get around Superman. I mean, you're probably gonna get smashed either way, but with Clark you need to account for like, three dozen different powers and skills, while with Hulk you basically just have to deal with one. That's the Five's downfall, they don't have enough versatility as individuals.

----------


## Pohzee

Oh my God, Titans is approaching CW level quality. smh at this week's episode.

----------


## Godlike13

The Superboy ep?

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Oh my God, Titans is approaching CW level quality. smh at this week's episode.


I kinda skipped to the ending after the first 10 minutes. I felt like if you already knew the character you didn't need to see majority of this ep.

----------


## Pohzee

> The Superboy ep?


Yep. What a dumb way to resolve that cliffhanger with Jason. Cheesy, cheesy

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yep. What a dumb way to resolve that cliffhanger with Jason. Cheesy, cheesy


Really? Once I saw that this week's episode was titled "Superboy", I had a feeling Conner would save Jason in about that exact fashion.

But they need to save Krypto. For the puppy!

----------


## Godlike13

It was pretty silly.

----------


## Zaresh

I liket it, to be honest. It was obvious what was going to happen (well, most of it). But I liked it anyways. The episode of this season that I liked the most, actually.

I think that this season is weaker than the first one, though. Worse.

----------


## king81992

> I liket it, to be honest. It was obvious what was going to happen (well, most of it). But I liked it anyways. The episode of this season that I liked the most, actually.
> 
> I think that this season is weaker than the first one, though. Worse.


I'm enjoying this season more than the first.

----------


## Pohzee

It was the laziest, easiest convience for him to be walking right by there at exactly the right time. I'm will to accept disbelief when I'm watching shows about superheroes, but I still expect decent writing.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm enjoying this season more than the first.


I have problems believing some fighting scenes and situations for different reasons. I think they have the story more planned, better thought; but I find a lot of things that make me stop enjoying the show and think about what I'm watching, breaking my immersion.

Edit: yeah, it was convenient; but the show has been abusing of that convenience since the second or third episode of the first season.

----------


## Pohzee

> I have problems believing some fighting scenes and situations for different reasons. I think they have the story more planned, better thought; but I find a lot of things that make me stop enjoying the show and think about what I'm watching, breaking my immersion.


Exactly my thoughts.

----------


## Blue22

Yeah I was definitely expecting either Conner to save Jason or for Kory to finally fly and do it, herself (though part of me was hoping this would be the point where Jason dies)

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah I was definitely expecting either Conner to save Jason or for Kory to finally fly and do it, herself (though part of me was hoping this would be the point where Jason dies)


Tsk, tsk.You want to have a Red Hood too soon! if you want his death to have impact, first, let it develop some actual history betwee the characters. Then, you can kill or torture him or whatever to get to RH ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Heck, we could even not get RH at all. That could be interesting, having something different, given that we're having a very different take on a lot of things in this series. Not that I think they won't go for Hood, but, dreaming is for free.

----------


## Blue22

It's not really my desire to see Red Hood (which...yeah...I do) as much as it is just me *really* disliking this Jason XD

----------


## Zaresh

> It's not really my desire to see Red Hood (which...yeah...I do) as much as it is just me *really* disliking this Jason XD


I commented this in our little corner for Jason, but I can see them trying to give this Jason something like what we had in the comics between Jason and Bizarro, in where Jason was his better version of himself for the sake of mentoring Bizarro and shaping him into a good guy. With Conner being so child-like here, they could try to make him more soft and responsible for helping and caring for him (as a way of thanking Conner for saving his life, and probably other reasons we don't know yet. We don't know a whole lot of this Jason's background, to be honest).

Some way of making him more likeable, I guess (or more palatable, or soft, or relatable), before... whatever will happen to him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tsk, tsk.You want to have a Red Hood too soon! if you want his death to have impact, first, let it develop some actual history betwee the characters. Then, you can kill or torture him or whatever to get to RH ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
> 
> Heck, we could even not get RH at all. That could be interesting, having something different, given that we're having a very different take on a lot of things in this series. Not that I think they won't go for Hood, but, dreaming is for free.


Jason needs to go back home to batman

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason needs to go back home to batman


I'm expecting him not to. It seems clear to me that this series's Batman is going to stop being active, and they're giving future Nightwing his Robin and Batman's role. That's why Dick is with Jason after months and he hasn't left back to Gotham. This Jason's involvement seems stronger with Dick.

----------


## byrd156

> Noted!! I will steer clear of Titans and just backtrack from New 52.  Thank you all!


The first arc of Abnett's isn't bad just a little boring. It was exciting to see everyone back together again at the time. It's a whole lot better than what we have now.

----------


## byrd156

> I liket it, to be honest. It was obvious what was going to happen (well, most of it). But I liked it anyways. The episode of this season that I liked the most, actually.
> 
> I think that this season is weaker than the first one, though. Worse.


The first season was awful. I'd rather watch Catwoman than season 1 again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm expecting him not to. It seems clear to me that this series's Batman is going to stop being active, and they're giving future Nightwing his Robin and Batman's role. That's why Dick is with Jason after months and he hasn't left back to Gotham. This Jason's involvement seems stronger with Dick.


jason is there on a type of suspension
and he stays ther because its where the story is for the character for now, but eventually a death in the family will happen

----------


## Rac7d*

> The first season was awful. I'd rather watch Catwoman than season 1 again.


ehhh really?

----------


## Zaresh

> The first season was awful. I'd rather watch Catwoman than season 1 again.


Oooh, that's harsh. That movie was... something hard to put into words. And I like a lot of honestly bad movies.

----------


## Fergus

> I'm expecting him not to. It seems clear to me that this series's Batman is going to stop being active, and they're giving future Nightwing his Robin and Batman's role. That's why Dick is with Jason after months and he hasn't left back to Gotham. This Jason's involvement seems stronger with Dick.


So borrowing from Damian's story. The Beyond the Trailer presenter mentioned this in one of her video's.

----------


## Fergus

> I enjoyed Abnett's Titans at first. It didn't start to fall apart for me until the League talked Dick into disbanding his own team and starting up a new one on their terms. That was just all kinds of wrong. The Titans (especially the adult ones) do not bend to the whims of the Justice League. *They don't work for them. They're not their sidekicks anymore. They're their own team who can't just be ordered to disband. That whole issue left such a bad taste in my mouth*.
> 
> And I can't even be mad at just Dick. Everyone else went along with it too. They could have kept going without him.


That really bothered me too. Robbed the team of their agency. Add to that Dick didn't get to do much so the run was very poor in my opinion.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That really bothered me too. Robbed the team of their agency. Add to that *Dick didn't get to do much so the run was very poor* in my opinion.


Despite being in the Dick grayson appreication thread, thats not a very good reason to call the run poor, this was the one place where he got interact with the world outside the bat. He was the one with the solo book issuing twice a month so it was okay for him to step back while his teammates took the spotlight. I love the respect he was given by his team, Garth sticking up for Dick as  being leader to his King was freakin awesome

----------


## Zaresh

> So borrowing from Damian's story. The Beyond the Trailer presenter mentioned this in one of her video's.


Kind of.
I'm seeing Hank taking on the role of mentor as much if not more than Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

> Despite being in the Dick grayson appreication thread, thats not a very good reason to call the run poor, this was the one place where he got interact with the world outside the bat. He was the one with the solo book issuing twice a month so it was okay for him to step back while his teammates took the spotlight. I love the respect he was given by his team, Garth sticking up for Dick as  being leader to his King was freakin awesome


See this is bogus, and a big part of one of the current Titans problem. This kind of logic makes the Titans a toxic and counter productive environment. Titans shouldn't be an environment that punishes success and popularity. Thats illogical and self destructive. This is one of the reasons comic Titans are stuck and don't go anywhere. Instead of building on its successes and using what it has that works to further the team's and brand's overall story, it gets lost in what doesn't and becomes a halfway home and containment book for its characters that can't carry a solo. You build on what what you have that works, not just put them in the back seat and continually feed them to what doesn't. Not that you don't try to build the others up too, thats not my point here either. But people aren't drawn to the JL so they can read about Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman just take a back seat all the time, same for the X-Men, same for the Avengers. 
The last series did nothing but use Nightwing as a prop for its lesser cast and continually fed him to and for the others. The culminating use of this was when it shat all over him, and mocked him as a very concept, all to make Roy look cooler. Roy who was going nowhere and was literally going off to die elsewhere, while Nightwing had to continue on with the series and again help carry its new cast going forward right after. This is utterly backwards, and that people defend this kind of practice is why a lot of Nightwing fans think the Titans is actually bad for Dick. Which is so counterproductive for Nightwing and Titans. Fans shouldn't be screaming for a franchises most popular character, its face, to not be part of that franchise anymore. Something is very wrong when that is happening. But when it continually does him like that, and others come back with "well thats ok cause he has a solo" (in other words people want to spend money to read about him), you can't really say they are wrong for wanting that.

----------


## Fergus

> Despite being in the Dick grayson appreication thread, thats not a very good reason to call the run poor, this was the one place where he got interact with the world outside the bat. He was the one with the solo book issuing twice a month so it was okay for him to step back while his teammates took the spotlight. I love the respect he was given by his team, Garth sticking up for Dick as  being leader to his King was freakin awesome


No it's not okay for him to step back from the spotlight just because he has a solo. Dick Grayson is not only the face of the franchise he's also the flagship character for IP's like TT, The Robin [ DC legacies in general], YJ TV Series.

He is part of the original trinity, a major part of Batman DC's biggest IP. He might not be openly called a pillar but he is definitely one of the 3 main pillars which if you take them or their contribution away DC would feel the most.

Years of not getting the level of respect a character of his calibre deserves has conditioned fans to lower expectations and demand less.
We wouldn't accept or even entertain the other two pillars Batman and Superman to sit back in a team book so why should we for Dick Grayson.

I buy Titans for Dick Grayson and DC uses him to sell the team&show so I expect him to do something and often.

----------


## bearman

boy, I agree.
 the Trinity is Superman, Batman and Robin, and Wonder Woman.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> boy, I agree.
>  the Trinity is Superman, Batman and Robin, and Wonder Woman.


Or, just to paraphrase Tom King, Dick Grayson is the fourth pillar od the DCU.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick is DC's third most published character for now. At one point he was a part of Trinity over Wonder Woman.

Now, it's clear that he's behind Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Flash.

----------


## Tzigone

> Dick is DC's third most published character for now. At one point he was a part of Trinity over Wonder Woman.
> 
> Now, it's clear that he's behind Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Flash.


When do you think he started his downward trend? I have my opinion on characterization decline, but that's not the same as popularity decline or decline in regard from writers/editorial/fans.  I've heard things on editorial, of course.

----------


## Rac7d*

> See this is bogus, and a big part of one of the current Titans problem. This kind of logic makes the Titans a toxic and counter productive environment. Titans shouldn't be an environment that punishes success and popularity. Thats illogical and self destructive. This is one of the reasons comic Titans are stuck and don't go anywhere. Instead of building on its successes and using what it has that works to further the team's and brand's overall story, it gets lost in what doesn't and becomes a halfway home and containment book for its characters that can't carry a solo. You build on what what you have that works, not just put them in the back seat and continually feed them to what doesn't. Not that you don't try to build the others up too, thats not my point here either. But people aren't drawn to the JL so they can read about Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman just take a back seat all the time, same for the X-Men, same for the Avengers. 
> The last series did nothing but use Nightwing as a prop for its lesser cast and continually fed him to and for the others. The culminating use of this was when it shat all over him, and mocked him as a very concept, all to make Roy look cooler. Roy who was going nowhere and was literally going off to die elsewhere, while Nightwing had to continue on with the series and again help carry its new cast going forward right after. This is utterly backwards, and that people defend this kind of practice is why a lot of Nightwing fans think the Titans is actually bad for Dick. Which is so counterproductive for Nightwing and Titans. Fans shouldn't be screaming for a franchises most popular character, its face, to not be part of that franchise anymore. Something is very wrong when that is happening. But when it continually does him like that, and others come back with "well thats ok cause he has a solo" (in other words people want to spend money to read about him), you can't really say they are wrong for wanting that.





> No it's not okay for him to step back from the spotlight just because he has a solo. Dick Grayson is not only the face of the franchise he's also the flagship character for IP's like TT, The Robin [ DC legacies in general], YJ TV Series.
> 
> He is part of the original trinity, a major part of Batman DC's biggest IP. He might not be openly called a pillar but he is definitely one of the 3 main pillars which if you take them or their contribution away DC would feel the most.
> 
> Years of not getting the level of respect a character of his calibre deserves has conditioned fans to lower expectations and demand less.
> We wouldn't accept or even entertain the other two pillars Batman and Superman to sit back in a team book so why should we for Dick Grayson.
> 
> I buy Titans for Dick Grayson and DC uses him to sell the team&show so I expect him to do something and often.


What you guys are asking for her has never existed and never will. Dick might be the leader but he is not the lead player. Titans is an eNsmble piece, made up of several heroes coming together. I can't recall a titans where Dick was the lead, he not like bruce who takes over whatever he is apart of or wolverine

----------


## Tzigone

I'm kind of a weirdo for Dick - he is (or him of certain era not now), my favorite character, but I'd have a Titans without him, eventually.  I do think that, as a point of differentiation with the JL, the Titans need to be a "full-time" team, unlike the League, which is a bunch of solo heroes who get together. That means they need to live in the same city, and only occasionally have solo adventures.  They need to be more of unit than the JL.  So if Dick goes off for solo adventures, he should no longer be on the Titans and only occasionally guest.  Discussed here.

----------


## king81992

> I'm kind of a weirdo for Dick - he is (or him of certain era not now), my favorite character, but I'd have a Titans without him, eventually.  I do think that, as a point of differentiation with the JL, the Titans need to be a "full-time" team, unlike the League, which is a bunch of solo heroes who get together. That means they need to live in the same city, and only occasionally have solo adventures.  They need to be more of unit than the JL.  So if Dick goes off for solo adventures, he should no longer be on the Titans and only occasionally guest.  Discussed here.


Cyborg should be running the Titans(but that's a discussion for another thread). Dick works better when he's involved in the grand scheme of the DC world not tied to Gotham, Bludhaven or the Titans.

----------


## Pohzee

> When do you think he started his downward trend? I have my opinion on characterization decline, but that's not the same as popularity decline or decline in regard from writers/editorial/fans.  I've heard things on editorial, of course.


Obviously most of Dick's appearances were attached to Batman's hip from issues of Batman, Detective, and World's Finest rather than his own merit. You can't replicate that as Nightwing. But even still he earned appearances on his own in Teen Titans and the New Teen Titans. Ultimately, the death of the Titans franchise and folding Dick back into the Batman books as a supporting character is what I think has proved to be his downfall. Stuck playing second fiddle to Batman, doing Batman-lite things in Gotham-lite, and constantly having his narrative upended for the latest Bat events.




> I'm kind of a weirdo for Dick - he is (or him of certain era not now), my favorite character, but I'd have a Titans without him, eventually.  I do think that, as a point of differentiation with the JL, the Titans need to be a "full-time" team, unlike the League, which is a bunch of solo heroes who get together. That means they need to live in the same city, and only occasionally have solo adventures.  They need to be more of unit than the JL.  So if Dick goes off for solo adventures, he should no longer be on the Titans and only occasionally guest.  Discussed here.


I agree that the Titans should be a full-time team only. But, I'd reconcile Dick's involvement a different way. I'd cancel his solo and fold him back into the Titans. Dick's book is doomed to mediocrity. If they fold Dick into the Titans, it gives Titans writers the chance to take chances with and develop Dick's character. Put him front and center as he should be and play with him.

----------


## Badou

> Despite being in the Dick grayson appreication thread, thats not a very good reason to call the run poor, this was the one place where he got interact with the world outside the bat. He was the one with the solo book issuing twice a month so it was okay for him to step back while his teammates took the spotlight. I love the respect he was given by his team, Garth sticking up for Dick as  being leader to his King was freakin awesome


If that was Dick "interacting with the world outside the bat" then fuck that. Abnett wrote Dick as the most ineffectual hero I have ever read in a comic that was supposed to be bringing these characters together. He barely interacted with any of the other Titans in a meaningful way, he failed as a leader time and time again, he got beaten up at every encounter, he had characters like Roy and the JL completely mock and devalue him, and Abnett wrote him as the most boring and generic leader that he has ever been portrayed as. There was nothing good about his use of the character in that series any anyone defending the run for his use of Dick I can't take their opinions seriously. 

Defending Abnett's writing of Dick in that series is a fucking joke. He did nothing in the years he wrote Dick and had him accomplish nothing. That is beyond just having him take a step back for his teammates. It was him undermining and mocking a character who is DC's 3rd most published character on a level that has rarely been seen before. All it did was completely validate my whole argument about how the Titans franchise is a terrible place for Dick's character in comics and I have zero desire to see Dick stuck in a situation like that again. It has been a garbage heap for decades and Abnett's run was up there as one of the best examples of why it has been that.

----------


## Godlike13

> What you guys are asking for her has never existed and never will. Dick might be the leader but he is not the lead player. Titans is an eNsmble piece, made up of several heroes coming together. I can't recall a titans where Dick was the lead, he not like bruce who takes over whatever he is apart of or wolverine


The Titans should be the lead, what I’m asking for is that Dick get his piece of the Titans pie. Not less cause the others around him are starving and ‘he has a solo’. Dick is also part of the ensemble regardless if he has a solo. He is also the biggest player the Titans have got. It’d serve both better to remember that. 




> I'm kind of a weirdo for Dick - he is (or him of certain era not now), my favorite character, but I'd have a Titans without him, eventually.  I do think that, as a point of differentiation with the JL, the Titans need to be a "full-time" team, unlike the League, which is a bunch of solo heroes who get together. That means they need to live in the same city, and only occasionally have solo adventures.  They need to be more of unit than the JL.  So if Dick goes off for solo adventures, he should no longer be on the Titans and only occasionally guest.  Discussed here.


The Titans couldn’t make it an arc with out Dick. For better or worse they are stuck together.




> I agree that the Titans should be a full-time team only. But, I'd reconcile Dick's involvement a different way. I'd cancel his solo and fold him back into the Titans. Dick's book is doomed to mediocrity. If they fold Dick into the Titans, it gives Titans writers the chance to take chances with and develop Dick's character. Put him front and center as he should be and play with him.


 I get what your saying, but the Titans doesn’t see any better or less mediocre creators. At the end of the day they get what they give.

----------


## Pohzee

I don't know how editorial logic works, but maybe consolidating two mediocre books merits an upgrade from two mediocre creative teams to one good one?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> What you guys are asking for her has never existed and never will. Dick might be the leader but he is not the lead player. Titans is an eNsmble piece, made up of several heroes coming together.* I can't recall a titans where Dick was the lead*, he not like bruce who takes over whatever he is apart of or wolverine


He pretty much was the defacto lead in NTT, as both the team leader and most prolific character there with a very high profile change in status quo that has stuck (Robin to Nightwing). It was still an ensemble, just a better written one and less decompressed so it had space for the other characters to have a lot of spotlight and even take over the lead role for arcs. But throughout, if one character can be identified as the lead, it's Dick with maybe Donna as a close second. 

He's also at the forefront of the TT cartoon and the live action show. There isn't really any logical reason to NOT consider him the lead, it's plain as day.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He pretty much was the defacto lead in NTT, as both the team leader and most prolific character there with a very high profile change in status quo that has stuck (Robin to Nightwing). It was still an ensemble, just a better written one and less decompressed so it had space for the other characters to have a lot of spotlight and even take over the lead role for arcs. But throughout, if one character can be identified as the lead, it's Dick with maybe Donna as a close second. 
> 
> He's also at the forefront of the TT cartoon and the live action show. There isn't really any logical reason to NOT consider him the lead, it's plain as day.


Not leader but lead characte, its always an ensemble pieces
NTT is put together by raven not dick and she drives the first arc and it rotates from their

----------


## Restingvoice

tumblr_9d77bc9055cc4070b5f3ac58ad8de04b_f9cd9801_640.jpg

Don't know where this from but it's for Lost Carnival

That hoodie crop top and waist-high jeans... when is this set? 80s?

----------


## Rac7d*

chooo choooo this train is finally mooving dang

----------


## Katana500

They should have just gone the Talon route from the start - as soon as Dick was shot in the head.

It'd defo have been more interesting than what we got.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They should have just gone the Talon route from the start - as soon as Dick was shot in the head.
> 
> It'd defo have been more interesting than what we got.


Shoulda woulda coulda.  At least the status quo is changing, and this is out of the league of the nightwings

----------


## Tzigone

> They should have just gone the Talon route from the start - as soon as Dick was shot in the head.
> 
> It'd defo have been more interesting than what we got.


I hate the entire existence of the Talons/Court of Owls an especially the circus connection to them for a couple of reasons and would not have read anyway, but it would have garnered higher sales.

----------


## Frontier

Honestly, I keep forgetting about the connection between Haley and the Court. It hardly ever seems relevant  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Not leader but lead characte, it’s always an ensemble pieces
> NTT is put together by raven not dick and she drives the first arc and it rotates from their


It's always an ensemble, but even then one character can stand out from the rest.
Raven brings the Titans together and she goes to him first because she needs a leader. This is even shown from his perspective when she's creeping in his dreams. The series literally opens with him as the POV character

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's always an ensemble, but even then one character can stand out from the rest.
> Raven brings the Titans together and she goes to him first because she needs a leader. This is even shown from his perspective when she's creeping in his dreams. The series literally opens with him as the POV character


He leaves the book often enough that i stand by my rotation stance

----------


## Badou

This Talon feels nothing like the Talon in the past. He comes across as more of a bad Ra's al Ghul knockoff. Talon should be an emotionless killing machine but he hasn't really killed anyone relevant here. 




> Honestly, I keep forgetting about the connection between Haley and the Court. It hardly ever seems relevant .


I think because the circus part always felt tacked on. As the Court really didn't care about the circus and was more interested in Bruce when this was all first written out. So they kind of ruined the circus as a setting for a Bruce story in the end, which never set well with me. 

The Circus has been destroyed for 5 years now or something? And Mr Haley was killed off even longer ago in Higgins run. They really did a number on that whole place. Having it become a nightmare for Dick because of the Court, burned it down, and killed off everyone in it basically. Not even sure how to bring it back unless you retcon most of Higgins' run.

----------


## Godlike13

He doesn’t shut up.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This Talon feels nothing like the Talon in the past. He comes across as more of a bad Ra's al Ghul knockoff. Talon should be an emotionless killing machine but he hasn't really killed anyone relevant here. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think because the circus part always felt tacked on. As the Court really didn't care about the circus and was more interested in Bruce when this was all first written out. So they kind of ruined the circus as a setting for a Bruce story in the end, which never set well with me. 
> 
> The Circus has been destroyed for 5 years now or something? And Mr Haley was killed off even longer ago in Higgins run. They really did a number on that whole place. Having it become a nightmare for Dick because of the Court, burned it down, and killed off everyone in it basically. Not even sure how to bring it back unless you retcon most of Higgins' run.


that was joker not the Owls

----------


## Badou

> that was joker not the Owls


I didn't mean to imply the Owls burned down the circus. I know it was Joker during the Death of the Family event. By "they" I meant DC and Higgins when they tore down the circus during the New 52 run. I don't really know how they fix it unless they retcon Higgins' run.

----------


## Restingvoice

Most of the Circus survived but they don't want to have anything to do with Dick because ever since he took over, the Circus kept getting attacked and Dick always somehow escaped harm while the crew suffers. 

All the old crew from Dick's childhood are either dead, evil or in prison and what's left is the new generation who joined after he moved to Wayne Manor that doesn't have an attachment to Dick beyond the professional.

I don't know how to fix it.

----------


## Katana500

I wonder if they will ever update Dick's origin.

Because Circus's are alot less common now a days and atleast where I'm from they tend to have alot of bad connotations.

----------


## yohyoi

I like the circus origin. It doesn't need to be changed. Those bad connotations could tell great stories. Look at Tim Drake. Boring background leads to a bland character is what I think happens.

Also for those who read Batman, is Batman even a decent father?! Not good, decent even at most. He could have prevented Ric. I hate the family abuser Batman we have now. He isn't a hero or a real father.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> He leaves the book often enough that i stand by my rotation stance


Not really often enough, not in the runs that actually matter. In NTT he briefly left the team between leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing, but was still in every issue. Same with when Donna briefly lead them team when he and Kory were in space, and when he left to go undercover and free Raven from Brother Blood.

It's still a rotating cast and the hierarchy is very close, but I think Dick stills comes across as THE lead in a book full of leads.

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder if they will ever update Dick's origin.
> 
> Because Circus's are alot less common now a days and atleast where I'm from they tend to have alot of bad connotations.


To be honest, I think you would have a hard time doing Dick's origin and finding something as memorable or with as strong iconography as the circus environment and his parents falling from the trapeze.

Not to mention how that aspect informs his character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> To be honest, I think you would have a hard time doing Dick's origin and finding something as memorable or with as strong iconography as the circus environment and his parents falling from the trapeze.
> 
> Not to mention how that aspect informs his character.


they dont need to update his orgin, he needs to stob be locked at 23

----------


## Restingvoice

Marcus To

tumblr_p0nssdyc3b1qhb02oo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I like the circus origin. It doesn't need to be changed. Those bad connotations could tell great stories. Look at Tim Drake. Boring background leads to a bland character is what I think happens.
> 
> Also for those who read Batman, is Batman even a decent father?! Not good, decent even at most. He could have prevented Ric. I hate the family abuser Batman we have now. He isn't a hero or a real father.





> I wonder if they will ever update Dick's origin.
> 
> Because Circus's are alot less common now a days and atleast where I'm from they tend to have alot of bad connotations.


Well, it's 2019 where Dick's circus origin is relevant to all of his major depictions in other media and we're getting the Lost Carnival (which focuses entirely on his time at the circus) next year, so I doubt that'll ever be changed for at least the next 10 years. And given how much that background is used as the character's foundation, it really shouldn't be.

And about Bruce, yeah he's being written terribly these days. He says "I don't hit my kids" on the same page he admits to hitting Tim to relay a message... like, I have no idea what King was thinking when he was writing this stuff. Does he really think any of this is okay? I have a feeling he does, and his editor clearly didn't stop him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Not really often enough, not in the runs that actually matter. In NTT he briefly left the team between leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing, but was still in every issue. Same with when Donna briefly lead them team when he and Kory were in space, and when he left to go undercover and free Raven from Brother Blood.
> 
> It's still a rotating cast and the hierarchy is very close, but I think Dick stills comes across as THE lead in a book full of leads.


He was not in every issue, I believe he left and Arsenal was leading for a period to the end

----------


## Arsenal

Even if most people have likely never been to a circus, enough people still know what a circus is so I don’t see any reason Dick’s origin would need to change for the foreseeable fortune.

----------


## Pohzee

Man, how are we gonna update Dumbo? Or Deadman?

How will people understand fictional clowns like the Joker or Bozo or Pennywise?

----------


## Godlike13

Don’t mention Bozo’s name or he’ll come to you at night.

----------


## Frontier

> And about Bruce, yeah he's being written terribly these days. He says "I don't hit my kids" on the same page he admits to hitting Tim to relay a message... like, I have no idea what King was thinking when he was writing this stuff. Does he really think any of this is okay? I have a feeling he does, and his editor clearly didn't stop him.


It feels like we hardly ever get any "good dad" moments with Bruce anymore, which is probably why the idea of him being a terrible father to the Batfamily gets perpetuated as much as it does. 



> Man, how are we gonna update Dumbo? Or Deadman?
> 
> How will people understand fictional clowns like the Joker or Bozo or Pennywise?


I don't think most people associate circuses with clowns these days.

----------


## Pohzee

> I don't think most people associate circuses with clowns these days.


I don't mean to imply that. But the profession of clowns as entertainers is dying just as the circus is. At some point clowns will be that scary thing in horror movies, with the secondary thought that they were once supposed to be fun children's entertainment.

That doesn't matter. Both clowns and circuses can still appear in the media.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans show is such a TV show, LoL.

----------


## Godlike13

*NIGHTWING #68*

_written by DAN JURGENS  art by RONAN CLIQUET  cover by TRAVIS MOORE  variant cover by ALAN QUAH

Being a superhero often means layers of identities. For Ric Grayson, he once had a life as a sidekick to Batman, a life he forgot when a terrible gunshot wound erased his memories. When his long lost grand-father, who is also a super-assassin called Talon, returned to his life and implanted false memories into his brain, that added another layer. Now, with Talon vanquished, Ric Grayson has to shake loose the truth. Is he the man he has created for himself, or is there still some of the old Nightwing lurking around inside his head? Even if he wanted to, could Ric be Nightwing again when four other people have put on the mask and picked up where he left off? Whichever it is, Talon made a mess of his current life, and now Ric has to start putting it all back together.
ON SALE 01.15.20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC|DC
This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details._

LoL, I knew this Talon shit was just a life raft for Ric. No one gives a shit about Ric’s stupid life that these old man, out of touch, creators came with. Stop facilitating these has beens at the bottom of the charts and end this shit already.

----------


## Rac7d*

> *NIGHTWING #68*
> 
> _written by DAN JURGENS  art by RONAN CLIQUET  cover by TRAVIS MOORE  variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> 
> Being a superhero often means layers of identities. For Ric Grayson, he once had a life as a sidekick to Batman, a life he forgot when a terrible gunshot wound erased his memories. When his long lost grand-father, who is also a super-assassin called Talon, returned to his life and implanted false memories into his brain, that added another layer. Now, with Talon vanquished, Ric Grayson has to shake loose the truth. Is he the man he has created for himself, or is there still some of the old Nightwing lurking around inside his head? Even if he wanted to, could Ric be Nightwing again when four other people have put on the mask and picked up where he left off? Whichever it is, Talon made a mess of his current life, and now Ric has to start putting it all back together.
> ON SALE 01.15.20
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC|DC
> This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details._
> ...


It’s so typical this will be the first time no one in dick main cast gets murdered

----------


## dietrich

> *NIGHTWING #68*
> 
> _written by DAN JURGENS  art by RONAN CLIQUET  cover by TRAVIS MOORE  variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> 
> Being a superhero often means layers of identities. For Ric Grayson, he once had a life as a sidekick to Batman, a life he forgot when a terrible gunshot wound erased his memories. When his long lost grand-father, who is also a super-assassin called Talon, returned to his life and implanted false memories into his brain, that added another layer. Now, with Talon vanquished, Ric Grayson has to shake loose the truth. Is he the man he has created for himself, or is there still some of the old Nightwing lurking around inside his head? Even if he wanted to, could Ric be Nightwing again when four other people have put on the mask and picked up where he left off? Whichever it is, Talon made a mess of his current life, and now Ric has to start putting it all back together.
> ON SALE 01.15.20
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC|DC
> This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details._
> ...


*Batman's Sidekick.*  Is this how they view Dick [ Please don't tell me they still view him as a sidekick!] or is the writer just talking about decades ago before he became an independent Hero? 

If it's the former that explains why he gets treated so badly and messed about.

Nightwing isn't anyone's sidekick

----------


## Frontier

> *NIGHTWING #68*
> 
> _written by DAN JURGENS  art by RONAN CLIQUET  cover by TRAVIS MOORE  variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> 
> Being a superhero often means layers of identities. For Ric Grayson, he once had a life as a sidekick to Batman, a life he forgot when a terrible gunshot wound erased his memories. When his long lost grand-father, who is also a super-assassin called Talon, returned to his life and implanted false memories into his brain, that added another layer. Now, with Talon vanquished, Ric Grayson has to shake loose the truth. Is he the man he has created for himself, or is there still some of the old Nightwing lurking around inside his head? Even if he wanted to, could Ric be Nightwing again when four other people have put on the mask and picked up where he left off? Whichever it is, Talon made a mess of his current life, and now Ric has to start putting it all back together.
> ON SALE 01.15.20
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC|DC
> This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details._


But...but nobody cares about that life  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> *Batman's Sidekick.*  Is this how they view Dick [ Please don't tell me they still view him as a sidekick!] or is the writer just talking about decades ago before he became an independent Hero? 
> 
> If it's the former that explains why he gets treated so badly and messed about.
> 
> Nightwing isn't anyone's sidekick


I get why you would come off with that impression, but I think they were just referring to his time as Robin.

----------


## cc008

> I get why you would come off with that impression, but I think they were just referring to his time as Robin.


I think so as well. Never really interpreted it another way.

----------


## Rac7d*

> *Batman's Sidekick.*  Is this how they view Dick [ Please don't tell me they still view him as a sidekick!] or is the writer just talking about decades ago before he became an independent Hero? 
> 
> If it's the former that explains why he gets treated so badly and messed about.
> 
> Nightwing isn't anyone's sidekick


There is the very face of sidekicks

----------


## Pohzee

Court of Pushovers

----------


## Godlike13

It’s sales are shit, it’s basically at a point shops are just comfortable stocking because of the title itself. The response to Ric, the content, and it’s creators has been non responsive to negative. They know this, they just don’t care. So it’s creators and editors don’t have to care as there is no one there to make them, and so they can just continue to cash checks as they spin theirs wheels producing this insultingly poor and lazy work. It’s a sweet gig really. No one on Ric is accountable, and even more no one high up really cares. They’re content with it being fodder for these old creators they like. 

 In simpler terms Jurgan’s and the books editors are not gonna feel any pushback or heat from that the quality of there work is shit and sales are at all time lows on title, no one cares what they do or how they perform, so why should they care or put in better work or effort. It’s gross. And why dishing things to comfortable protected creators like Lobdell and Jurgan’s was the worse thing that could happen to a character in any state. They’ll end Ric when it’s most convenient, regardless of sales or response.

----------


## yash

Ok this is ridiculous, I checked out a year ago, I thought of getting back but this Ric bs started, I don't know when I last visited but it was long time ago and this Ric bs is still going on?? Do we have any idea when it stops?? When is the next big reset??

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ok this is ridiculous, I checked out a year ago, I thought of getting back but this Ric bs started, I don't know when I last visited but it was long time ago and this Ric bs is still going on?? Do we have any idea when it stops?? When is the next big reset??


2020. No date.

Hey, can someone proofread this for me? This says Nightwing Ric Grayson still sells higher than not only Red Hood, but also Hawkman, Batgirl, and Justice League Odyssey

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...9/2019-08.html

----------


## Drako

> 2020. No date.
> 
> Hey, can someone proofread this for me? This says Nightwing Ric Grayson still sells higher than not only Red Hood, but also Hawkman, Batgirl, and Justice League Odyssey
> 
> https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...9/2019-08.html


This site is everyone source for this kinds of numbers and i don't think they're wrong.

----------


## Godlike13

> 2020. No date.
> 
> Hey, can someone proofread this for me? This says Nightwing Ric Grayson still sells higher than not only Red Hood, but also Hawkman, Batgirl, and Justice League Odyssey
> 
> https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...9/2019-08.html


Red Hood, JLO, and Hawkman are poor benchmarks, as none are strong sellers. For Batgirl it was its cardstock months

----------


## Restingvoice

> Red Hood, JLO, and Hawkman are poor benchmarks, as none are strong sellers. For Batgirl it was its cardstock months


Oh, I didn't know JLO sells so poorly. It's a League book with Starfire, Cyborg, and Darkseid. 
What's a cardstock month?

----------


## Godlike13

> Oh, I didn't know JLO sells so poorly. It's a League book with Starfire, Cyborg, and Darkseid. 
> What's a cardstock month?


Card stock variants, the chart split sales between cardstock and reg covers.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Card stock variants, the chart split sales between cardstock and reg covers.


Oh, but both sales combined are still lower than Nightwing. Number a hundred something.

----------


## Godlike13

> Oh, but both sales combined are still lower than Nightwing. Number a hundred something.


No it's not, combined Batgirl is at 25k while Nightwing is 22k.

 Also bare in mind before their respective direction changes Nightwing was outselling Batgirl consistently.

----------


## Restingvoice

> No it's not, combined Batgirl is at 25k while Nightwing is 22.


Oh, it's n.a. not a hundred something. I only saw the number on the first column and just assume it's lower because it's at the bottom of the table. Okay. _That_ makes sense.

----------


## Ascended

> No it's not, combined Batgirl is at 25k while Nightwing is 22k.
> 
>  Also bare in mind before their respective direction changes Nightwing was outselling Batgirl consistently.


Before everything went to hell Nightwing was a consistent seller that beat out most non-JLA related books, including most/all of the ancillary Bat titles. 

Remember, like, a year ago people were saying "Stop buying Nightwing! They won't change and fix this Ric stuff if the sales stay solid!" 

If the sales are finally tanking, good! That'll force either a story-fix, or a cancellation. And Nightwing is too big a character to stay gone for long so a relaunch wouldn't be long in the making. 

Even if Dick did end up in limbo for a while (Didio would be thrilled), it'd be better than this BS they've tried to hand us. But there's no way Dick/Nightwing would stay gone for too long.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing has enough brand recognition and ties that sales were never gonna quickly tank through its floor. Stop buying Nighwing for your own sanity, but it's not gonna change a damn thing. They'd let Jurgan's spin his wheels with the title even if it was in the teens. Which by January it probably will be.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing has enough brand recognition and ties that sales were never gonna quickly tank through its floor. Stop buying Nighwing for your own sanity, but it's not gonna change a damn thing. They'd let Jurgan's spin his wheels with the title even if it was in the teens. Which by January it probably will be.


I went on twitter's comic side and found a Nightwing fan account that promotes everything Nightwing including urging to pick up the current/next issue and watch Titans so they can discuss everything.

This is the kinda people you're talking about isn't it

----------


## Pohzee

> I went on twitter's comic side and found a Nightwing fan account that promotes everything Nightwing including urging to pick up the current/next issue and watch Titans so they can discuss everything.
> 
> This is the kinda people you're talking about isn't it


There are people here who still buy it.

Titans was better this week, but that Bruce fadeaway was hilarious.

----------


## Masterff

Hello,
whats Dick current situation?
Is he back as Nightwing?

----------


## Godlike13

> Hello,
> whats Dick current situation?
> Is he back as Nightwing?


No, still Ric into January.

----------


## cc008

> No, still Ric into January.


At least there's a glimmer of hope.

----------


## Ascended

> Nightwing has enough brand recognition and ties that sales were never gonna quickly tank through its floor. Stop buying Nighwing for your own sanity, but it's not gonna change a damn thing. They'd let Jurgan's spin his wheels with the title even if it was in the teens. Which by January it probably will be.


Oh I dropped Nightwing a long time ago. The last issues I bought were Percy's Motorcycle Death Race issues (I have flipped through the newer stuff at the store, but haven't bought them). Which I thought were fantastic (shame the rest of the run wasn't up to that level). It really sucks not getting my Nightwing fix, but it's not like I'd be scratching that itch with the current book anyway; better to save my money and tell DC with my wallet that I won't support sh*t books, even if I love the title character.

And no, the sales weren't gonna crash instantly. Dick's too big a IP for that to happen. But we fans put up with crap far longer than we should, and the longer we keep buying the more we're telling DC that we'll accept sub par quality just because we like the character. I'm actually glad the sales are finally falling. The sooner the book stops turning a profit the sooner DC will have to fix it. And Dick's safe from going into limbo for a prolonged period of time; the fact that he still sells this well even after more than a year of Ric bullsh*t shows how consistent and viable his sales are, and DC ultimately doesn't want to lose out on that money. Didio's personal grudge be damned, eventually business sense will win the day and Nightwing will be back in proper form. But the longer we support Ric, the longer that'll take.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Seeing Tim featured in Superman: Heroes issue that is being released in Jan 2020 makes me think that they are letting Dick be Ric so that Tim can get some prime Tim as the grown up Prodigal Robin now out of the Bat’s shadow.


Not that I mind, but I wish they could find a way for both to be at their best.

----------


## dietrich

> Seeing Tim featured in Superman: Heroes issue that is being released in Jan 2020 makes me think that they are letting Dick be Ric so that Tim can get some prime Tim as the grown up Prodigal Robin now out of the Bat’s shadow.
> 
> 
> Not that I mind, but I wish they could find a way for both to be at their best.


A Tim  Stan that's still hopeful. I like that.   :Stick Out Tongue: 

Speaking  seriously I don't think Tim has anything to do with Ric.  If DC believes that the only way Tim's character can grab attention  is by removing all  competitors then it's best they ditch him. What  good  is  a  character  that can't  stand along with  others?

Being on a cover with a bunch of people means nothing

----------


## Arsenal

Is that supposed to be Tim? Since he’s wearing the Robin suit I just assumed it was supposed to be Damian.

----------


## dietrich

> Is that supposed to be Tim? Since he’s wearing the Robin suit I just assumed it was supposed to be Damian.


That is Damian. Tim is right at the back. The one dressed like a UPS guy holding a stick.

----------


## Arsenal

> That is Damian. Tim is right at the back. The one dressed like a UPS guy holding a stick.


Huh. I never even noticed the stick wielding UPS guy in the back.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> A Tim  Stan that's still hopeful. I like that.  
> 
> Speaking  seriously I don't think Tim has anything to do with Ric.  If DC believes that the only way Tim's character can grab attention  is by removing all  competitors then it's best they ditch him. What  good  is  a  character  that can't  stand along with  others?
> 
> Being on a cover with a bunch of people means nothing


Lol grew up with Tim but moved over to Nightwing back when N52 started.


Anyways, thats just my guess. YJ seems to be involved in the Superman reveal event so I figured it might be DC giving them the spotlight over the Titans currently. It would explain why theres no Titans book in sight atm.

----------


## Arsenal

If anything, it’s more likely a Bendis thing instead of a DC one since he’s currently writing both books.

I’m sure there the Titans will pop up again once we get to Crisis of Infinite Metals or whatever big thing they have cooked up for 2020. Got to get the cannon fodder ready somehow  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Vordan

Didio needs to go. The fact that hes letting these books fall in quality and sales like this is reason enough for me to believe he needs to go. A ******* YEAR of this crap for WHAT? What goddamn reason is there? No one likes this, it sells like **** and its hurting your IP.

If youve ever needed a reason why the good ol boy mindset of the Big 2 sucks look no further than the fact that Jurgens and Lobdell have tanked Nightwing, and editorial hasnt done anything to adjust to fan feedback. Thats because no one is going to get punished because everyone there is buddies and give work to their buddies and company lapdogs rather than be forced to seek out talent.

----------


## Ascended

> If anything, it’s more likely a Bendis thing instead of a DC one since he’s currently writing both books.


That's all it is. It's Clark and his co-workers in the League, and then everyone that Bendis is handling. We've got YJ in there, pretty sure I saw Naomi and the Wonder Twins too. 

This isn't throwing hate at the Titans or anyone else, this is just Bendis including the characters he's been working on, and the League because you can't really do this story without them being involved.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Nightwing is no longer in the top 100, Black Label books really carry DC and the usual higher sellers.

----------


## Godlike13

Man the Bat office is not looking good. Batman out of the top 10, most of their satellite books out of the top 100. They have really let things go.

----------


## Badou

They had card stock variants again last month I think? So that probably messed up the rankings some as they split the normal and card stock issues in the rankings I believe.

----------


## Godlike13

I didn't know they did another card stock month.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s doesn’t seem it was a cardstock month, Nightwing is just out of the top 100. We’ll done again Nightwing team. Be proud.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, looks like Nightwing wasn't one of the card stock books. Batman and Harley & Ivy placed twice ahead of Nightwing because of their card stock issues. So I guess if you combine them Nightwing would have jumped from #102 to #100. Looks like his books finally dipped below 22K now though.

----------


## Pohzee

We did it! ������������������

Still selling better than Red Hood though, not good enough!

----------


## Rac7d*

rebirth did him so wrong

----------


## Vordan

> rebirth did him so wrong


I liked Seeley and Humphries Nightwing Rebirth runs but everything after was boring to terrible.

----------


## Frontier

> rebirth did him so wrong


Back when DC took the Titans (and Nightwing) seriously.

----------


## Rac7d*

DCuniverse is revamped and I have made the counterpart our thread here

https://community.dcuniverse.com/t/d...eciation/93899

----------


## Rac7d*

This article is filled with big Dick Grayson energy

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I ordered this gorgeous boy...nightwing_dc-comics_gallery_5c4b8feae431c.jpg

And unfortunately...
20191022_234335.jpg

It feels like a physical manifestation of my disappointment with DC  :Stick Out Tongue:  I can literally not enjoy any of their products.

Did you guys hear about the new Arkham game rumours. It might be called Arkham legacy and supposedly you'd get to play with all the fam. Which sounds great because let's face it Dick was the highlight of AK

----------


## Godlike13

That’s some bull.

----------


## Pohzee

I have no faith in the rumor considering we've heard about Beyond and the Court and now this. But honestly Scott Porter is my favorite Nightwing VA. He nailed him in Knight

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I really do not like the way the family has been handled in the Arkham games (except for Origins, but the only family there was Alfred lol. I'd be hype if we got a sequel focusing on Dick's origins tho). Dick didn't even have lines in Arkham City DLC even though they had no problem charging like $8 for him, and in Knight he was either just there to be there or to job when they needed him to. Even ignoring that, just the TimBabs stuff, Jason being AK even after they very publicly said he wouldn't be, and referencing Knightfall in the true ending but not actually following through with either Jean-Paul or Dick (in the spirit of Prodigal) was all pretty sad. The family just being around to be hostages and all that is pretty disappointing as well. 

Anyways, I doubt this game is going to go over well with me, but we'll see I guess. Then again, we've been getting teased about this game for so long now and it's been forever since both Origins and Knight, and yet there's no indication towards an announcement to be found.

----------


## CPSparkles

Dick in his Dark Victory outfit




Flying Grayson






https://twitter.com/drawingcookie1

----------


## yohyoi

I can't stand cliche DickBabs. TimBabs was okay as long as Dick gets away from Babs' grasps. Dick's role was 100 times better than Tim in AK. Go away bald emo Robin! Even when Dick was nerfed in AK, his personality was better than Jason, Tim, Bruce and Babs combined.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing DLC was PS4 Spider-Man game before it existed. Gotham also looked amazing during the day. Nightwing was also OP. Easiest and fastest takedowns from all the characters.

----------


## Frontier

> I really do not like the way the family has been handled in the Arkham games (except for Origins, but the only family there was Alfred lol. I'd be hype if we got a sequel focusing on Dick's origins tho). Dick didn't even have lines in Arkham City DLC even though they had no problem charging like $8 for him, and in Knight he was either just there to be there or to job when they needed him to. Even ignoring that, just the TimBabs stuff, Jason being AK even after they very publicly said he wouldn't be, and referencing Knightfall in the true ending but not actually following through with either Jean-Paul or Dick (in the spirit of Prodigal) was all pretty sad. The family just being around to be hostages and all that is pretty disappointing as well. 
> 
> Anyways, I doubt this game is going to go over well with me, but we'll see I guess. Then again, we've been getting teased about this game for so long now and it's been forever since both Origins and Knight, and yet there's no indication towards an announcement to be found.


I have more confidence in the _Origins_ team writing the Family together if I'm honest, at least if it was the same writing team from the first game.

----------


## Coco Loco

Anyone notice that the Daily Planet/ recap page of Action Comics # 1016 this week included dick.grayson as one of the fictional accounts to follow?  Ric presumably doesn’t remember that Twitter exists, y’know, with the whole no cell phone thing.

----------


## Agent Z

Fun fact: the bike Dick drove in the previous episode belongs to his stunt double.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TitansTV/co...th_a_fun_fact/

----------


## Godlike13

Deathstoke is something the show is doing right. Loved the gun staff.

----------


## nightbird

What I like about this show, that they’re showing Deathstroke as someone very capable to kill all/some Titans, but never make him out to be a treat that should be dealt with only JL members. What comics(+ games and movies) try to do. They try to portray Deathstroke above Titans, when he basically started as their enemy. Now he is somehow “too cool” for Robin/Nightwing and needs to join Batman’s rogue gallery.

----------


## Badou

https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...wing-annual-2/

That awful New 52 Robin costume is still being used. Crotch arrow and everything, lol.

----------


## Godlike13

Oh course they want to tell this story after a year+ of shit. As if anybody cares anymore, and isn’t just waiting for this embarrassing train wreck of lazy incompetence to be over. These tone deaf old guys just need to go.

----------


## Badou

Also they jumped it from 10 years to 20 years he couldn't remember for some reason. So Dick is 30 now?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Also they jumped it from 10 years to 20 years he couldn't remember for some reason. So Dick is 30 now?


Seems like it. Or close to it, anyway (depending on when his parents died now).

----------


## Aahz

> That awful New 52 Robin costume is still being used. Crotch arrow and everything, lol.


And for some reason they are using the ASBAR Circus costumes ...

----------


## 9th.

> Oh course they want to tell this story after a year+ of shit. As if anybody cares anymore, and isn’t just waiting for this embarrassing train wreck of lazy incompetence to be over. These tone deaf old guys just need to go.


This is the weirdest thing I've seen in comics since Marvel tuned Jubilee into a vampire.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...wing-annual-2/
> 
> That awful New 52 Robin costume is still being used. Crotch arrow and everything, lol.


I mean, this version removes all his spikes. Just remove the design around his shoulders and give him an actual belt.

----------


## L.H.

> And for some reason they are using the ASBAR Circus costumes ...


The same costumes were used in Red Hood Annual, looks like canon.
Travis Moore art Is so wasted on Ric...

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> The same costumes were used in Red Hood Annual, looks like canon.
> Travis Moore art Is so wasted on Ric...


I think DC know Ric is utter garbage and are using Travis Moore's art to soften the blow to fans. It's the only thing that has been consistently praised about this run. But as my granny used to say you can cover shite in glitter but it doesn't make it an ornament.

I don't know who's still reading this but will someone tell me if it bothers to explain why (most of) his family and the Titans abandoned him when he got a TBI? I'm having trouble grasping why Batman, the world's greatest detective, thinks it's something he could just walk off.

----------


## Godlike13

Does Moore do the full issue, cause usually with his Ric work he just does a couple a pages here and there. Sometimes you get a full issue.

And Babs popped upped, but she gave up, apologized, and then left as if she was wrong to wanting to help this delusional asshole hobo with brain trauma. She was with him in the hospital and helped this loser to walk again, but she was the one who apologized to him. Cause in Lobdell's head that apparently made sense. The Titans apparently couldn't give a shit, but they have their own issues. Though if it was Jason im sure he would have had Starfire and/or Roy there.

----------


## L.H.

Well, Kory is in the Space, Roy is dead, Wally lost in the Multiverse, Donna is infected by the BWL and Titans ended when he was still in the ospital (at last, they believe that). I'm not reading Ric, but I'm following reviews and comments, and it looks like nobody of the Batfam, aside Babs and Alfred (who went once to check on him) ever cared about him. 
I think the other writers just don't want to get involved in the Ric's crap

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Oh I can totally understand other writers giving this dumpster fire a wide berth. I cannot understand why the Ric writers aren't cramming the family in, in every other panel. It would at the very least boost sales but disgruntled fans like myself might weaken if we got a full issue with Damian, for example.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh I can totally understand other writers giving this dumpster fire a wide berth. I cannot understand why the Ric writers aren't cramming the family in, in every other panel. It would at the very least boost sales but disgruntled fans like myself might weaken if we got a full issue with Damian, for example.


Damian has been more dependent on Dick for guidance then he as ever been with Bruce

They cant show this relationship without ric looking like a selfish asshole so ignore,

----------


## Ansa

> I'm not reading Ric, but I'm following reviews and comments, and it looks like nobody of the Batfam, aside Babs and Alfred (who went once to check on him) ever cared about him. 
> I think the other writers just don't want to get involved in the Ric's crap


I think Ric mentioned that Damian was there when he woke up but he only calls him "the kid".

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm just gonna save and caress that page where Batman nuzzles his head against Nightwing as he lifts him up.

That's it. I'm done. See you in 2020.

----------


## Godlike13

And yet Batman couldn’t find the time to check on Dick once since he’s been Ric.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I'm just gonna save and caress that page where Batman nuzzles his head against Nightwing as he lifts him up.
> 
> That's it. I'm done. See you in 2020.


Why? A nuzzle means nothing when that's all he did.
I want him acting like a father whose kid has been shot. Ric might not remember but Bruce raised this child for 20 years [apparently] from kid to man. His first child. That's a thing that would crush any parents and have them fussing, showing up everyday in hopes you might remember. Leaving clues or items that might help you recall. Talking about stuff or deliberately directing discussion to topics from your years together in hopes that one might finally trigger their memory.

I'm disappointed in the Ric writers and in Bruce's writer. The writers for Ric are aware of the large Batfamily and the role Dick plays but they choose to not have any of them aside from Babs make an appearance.

Lobdell writes in Bruce in RHATO every chance he gets but here where it's necessary he forgets.One would think that a writers who in his main title writes a lot of stories about family and daddy issues would rush to use the rich connections and relationship's that Dick has.

Dick has what he want's for Jason so put them to use. Nope

Jurgens I expected better.

----------


## WonderNight

Honestly outside of a handful dick isn't as close to the batfamily as some fans make him out to be.

There's Bruce, babs, Damian and alfred. Maybe Tim and helena but that's all.

----------


## Godlike13

> Honestly outside of a handful dick isn't as close to the batfamily as some fans make him out to be.
> 
> There's Bruce, babs, Damian and alfred. Maybe Tim and helena but that's all.


That’s the majority of them. Not too mention the core group.

----------


## Badou

> Honestly outside of a handful dick isn't as close to the batfamily as some fans make him out to be.
> 
> There's Bruce, babs, Damian and alfred. Maybe Tim and helena but that's all.


It is sort of similar to that fan label of Dick being "the heart/center of the DCU" when he really isn't. There aren't many stories where Dick takes an active role in the DCU or the major characters in the DCU look towards Dick with any guidance. He's mainly just a Batman supporting character and runs around with the Titans sometimes, but most DC franchises he is very uninvolved with. 

With the Batman family Dick is close with more than most, although the Ric story really damages that with how barely anyone cares about him in it, but the greater Batman franchise he is a lot more limited. He's been a Batman character for 80 years and is pretty uninvolved with most Batman villains despite being around longer than nearly all of them.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm not reading all that. Guys, I don't care. 

The writer's editors whatever certainly don't so I pick what I like and leave, peek, see what else I like, pick it up and leave 

I don't buy the Ric arc or any other arc I find annoying so they don't exist, and I'm not investing any atom of my mind or heart thinking and wishing of what could've been. I already did my part: I stopped buying current DC Comics more than a year ago. 

I'm not even gonna buy this issue. I said I saved the file and that's it. 

So I don't know why _that_ is such a big deal. 

Sales already went down, you wanna blame someone for all this go for everyone else who's still buying, writing, and editing. I'll join you when I'm in the mood of it as usual,  but I'm not in the mood for it right now. I'm making a clipping of what I think Batman should be and enjoy that.

I'm not wasting any more energy on things I know I can't change (on my own)

----------


## nhienphan2808

> It is sort of similar to that fan label of Dick being "the heart/center of the DCU" when he really isn't. There aren't many stories where Dick takes an active role in the DCU or the major characters in the DCU look towards Dick with any guidance. He's mainly just a Batman supporting character and runs around with the Titans sometimes, but most DC franchises he is very uninvolved with.
> With the Batman family Dick is close with more than most, although the Ric story really damages that with how barely anyone cares about him in it, but the greater Batman franchise he is a lot more limited. He's been a Batman character for 80 years and is pretty uninvolved with most Batman villains despite being around longer than nearly all of them.


This is real. 
Dick is actually very close-nit. Inside of the batfam, he's not close with the Batgirls, which made him less connected than Tim and Babs, and Tim forged more connections since Robin's favoured, and Babs "knows everyone" as Oracle - Even the Super, Kara partnered with Batgirl first before with him via age retcon.

 His true friends were only the Fab five, and they each was similarly connected, or more. Most of Dick's teams and relationship are because of his relationship with Bruce. The NTT is the only team that's wholely his and i don't see him even that actively connected with them. The last time he really interacted with Green lanterns or Wonder Woman was the early 80s.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Dick was the "heart of the DCU" only because NTT was the heart of the DCU for a while. It was their biggest book by far for a number of years, it's like how you could argue Superman is the heart of the DCU these days because of his role as the heart of Snyder's JL run (except, that book isn't selling as well as other Batman books so lol). Dick was essentially the leading man and one of the main protagonists of the whole DCU by extension because of NTT, which is why even years later, people who grew up with that series reference Dick as if he's still the same character with the same role even when he's not.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I'm not reading all that. Guys, I don't care. 
> 
> The writer's editors whatever certainly don't so I pick what I like and leave, peek, see what else I like, pick it up and leave 
> 
> I don't buy the Ric arc or any other arc I find annoying so they don't exist, and I'm not investing any atom of my mind or heart thinking and wishing of what could've been. I already did my part: I stopped buying current DC Comics more than a year ago. 
> 
> I'm not even gonna buy this issue. I said I saved the file and that's it. 
> 
> So I don't know why _that_ is such a big deal. 
> ...


That is a super power I wish I had. I'd be so much happier.

Right now I'm pre-emptively dreading Tynion making Dick apologize for embarrassing/inconveniencing the family.

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly outside of a handful dick isn't as close to the batfamily as some fans make him out to be.
> 
> There's Bruce, babs, Damian and alfred. Maybe Tim and helena but that's all.


I mean, he feels pretty central to the family at times, whether in stuff like Murder/Fugitive or when he was in the leadup to becoming Batman (and then when he _was_ Batman).

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> And yet Batman couldn’t find the time to check on Dick once since he’s been Ric.


To be fair, if they want to do right by Dick. they can pretend a Batfam member was watching him the whole time.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> To be fair, if they want to do right by Dick. they can pretend a Batfam member was watching him the whole time.


Not really. If someone was watching him. The CoO would never have been able to get to him. Also, presumably they would stop him fighting crime in just mom jeans and a t-shirt because that's incredibly dangerous. Not to mention he jeopardised everyone's secret identity by forgoing a mask and smearing his face in dirt.

I mean,I can see a writer using that defence but it's a very weak one.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> I'm not reading all that. Guys, I don't care. 
> 
> The writer's editors whatever certainly don't so I pick what I like and leave, peek, see what else I like, pick it up and leave 
> 
> I don't buy the Ric arc or any other arc I find annoying so they don't exist, and I'm not investing any atom of my mind or heart thinking and wishing of what could've been. I already did my part: I stopped buying current DC Comics more than a year ago. 
> 
> I'm not even gonna buy this issue. I said I saved the file and that's it. 
> 
> So I don't know why _that_ is such a big deal. 
> ...


I do the same thing too with DC lol. Much bliss.

----------


## Godlike13

> This is real. 
> Dick is actually very close-nit. Inside of the batfam, he's not close with the Batgirls, which made him less connected than Tim and Babs, and Tim forged more connections since Robin's favoured, and Babs "knows everyone" as Oracle - Even the Super, Kara partnered with Batgirl first before with him via age retcon.
> 
>  His true friends were only the Fab five, and they each was similarly connected, or more. Most of Dick's teams and relationship are because of his relationship with Bruce. The NTT is the only team that's wholely his and i don't see him even that actively connected with them. The last time he really interacted with Green lanterns or Wonder Woman was the early 80s.


Not being close to Steph or Cass isn’t really a big deal, their foot print is rather small and you can barely even call them family at this point (sorry Cass and Steph fans). Babs barely even knows them anymore. And no one can be close to every various satellite members of the week that come and go.
Even still who else is closer to today’s current Batman, Batgirl, and Robin then him? He has meaningful relationships and current history with all the main members of the Batfamily. Which is something most of the other member of the bloated and diluted don’t have. And then you can throw in Tim and Jason, played a role in Cass’ new orgin, and trained Duke a little even.

And heart of DC has always been just a line thrown out to better sell when they victimize him. Him being the first sidekick and all.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Not really. If someone was watching him. The CoO would never have been able to get to him. Also, presumably they would stop him fighting crime in just mom jeans and a t-shirt because that's incredibly dangerous. Not to mention he jeopardised everyone's secret identity by forgoing a mask and smearing his face in dirt.
> 
> I mean,I can see a writer using that defence but it's a very weak one.


Oh, you're right. It's totally weak. It just wouldn't stop them from using it, and claiming some emergency kept them from watching him when it mattered.

----------


## Ansa

> Not really. If someone was watching him. The CoO would never have been able to get to him. Also, presumably they would stop him fighting crime in just mom jeans and a t-shirt because that's incredibly dangerous. Not to mention he jeopardised everyone's secret identity by forgoing a mask and smearing his face in dirt.
> 
> I mean,I can see a writer using that defence but it's a very weak one.


After the mess that was Batman 81 I'm really not sure if the current editorial cares about "plot twists" making sense.

----------


## Roliver Queen

> https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...wing-annual-2/
> 
> That awful New 52 Robin costume is still being used. Crotch arrow and everything, lol.


I actually think its cool that they're revisiting what happened. Feels like they've been throwing the accident under the rug since it happened and its not a bad way to spend an annual.
I do believe the Ric Grayson storyline is MUCH better now than how it started out. At least it has some kind of direction now and isn't a total bore to read. Jurgens imo is making the best out of a shitty situation that he and the previous writers got slapped with thanks to King.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I actually think its cool that they're revisiting what happened. Feels like they've been throwing the accident under the rug since it happened and its not a bad way to spend an annual.
> I do believe the Ric Grayson storyline is MUCH better now than how it started out. At least it has some kind of direction now and isn't a total bore to read. Jurgens imo is making the best out of a shitty situation that he and the previous writers got slapped with thanks to King.


I read 62-65 just now. Don't worry, I didnt give DC any money for them. They aren't good. Even with a much more intriguing premise, a Dick who only remembers the circus joining the Talons, its still incredibly poorly written. Lazy writing. Horrible dialogue. Just really really bad. It took 4 issues for Dick to become a talon, and he didn't even choose it? It was a mcguffin. Really really poor.

----------


## Godlike13

> I read 62-65 just now. Don't worry, I didnt give DC any money for them. They aren't good. Even with a much more intriguing premise, a Dick who only remembers the circus joining the Talons, its still incredibly poorly written. Lazy writing. Horrible dialogue. Just really really bad. It took 4 issues for Dick to become a talon, and he didn't even choose it? It was a mcguffin. Really really poor.


Um, yep...

----------


## Pohzee

I agree with not giving DC any money for it. But I can’t even be bothered to read it or follow along

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> I agree with not giving DC any money for it. But I can’t even be bothered to read it or follow along


I'm the same way. I can't be bothered to hate it (and I wish the creators no ill will), I just want it over with.

----------


## redmax99

i stuck with nightwing since issue 50 and i actually come to care about the nightwings and since jurgens been writing it's been in an up swing an the annual is great

----------


## Drako

The annual was actually good. Too bad the main book isn't.
Bruce and Damian scenes were touching, especially Damian's.

----------


## Lazurus33

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Nightwing annual #2


nwan1.jpgnwan1b.jpgnwan2.jpg

----------


## K. Jones

> SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
> 
> Nightwing annual #2
> 
> 
> nwan1.jpgnwan1b.jpgnwan2.jpg


Ah yeah, the old Retconspiracy. Conspiratsia. Yup yup.

Like it doesn't excuse a pretty blehhhh run of comic books but I'm still glad to see it happen. They're not going to make lemonade out of these lemons, but like ... sure. Yup. If you've got to steer that ship in a new direction and try to tie this into a more important narrative, yeah, do it this way.

----------


## Godlike13

The annual might have been ok if it existed in a vacuum, but it doesn’t. So to now try and show the family giving a shit after over a year of them being no where in sight except for Bab is just dumb, and it only gets dumber when you realize the Court of Owls went through all this just to slap magic goggles on his head a year later. Same goes for them as the Family, they did all this yet where the hell were they for the majority of this shitty run then. It’s like this was just some after the fact bull crap they came up with a year later  :Wink:  :Wink: . A deus ex machina for this Ric situation. 

Also about Cobb, Cobb is a worker bee for the Court. They don’t operate account to what he wants. Jurgan’s Court and his Cobb continue to make no sense. 

At the end of the day though the whys and how’s of Ric could have been forgiven if these old guys could have been bothered to come up with an actual likable characterization for Ric. But no, instead Ric remains as weak and unlikable as ever. Running away like bitch here, crying to his doctor, these boring out of touch writers still just don’t seem to understand that this does not make for an interesting or compelling fresh character that people are ever going to want to root for. Ric is lame. His motivations are lame, his thoughts are lame, his personality is lame. He is so cookie cutter and boring. His reactions here were just cooking cutter and boring. What good is “fresh lump of clay” in the hands of boring creators with no story or compelling vision for the character.

----------


## OWL45

> Ah yeah, the old Retconspiracy. Conspiratsia. Yup yup.
> 
> Like it doesn't excuse a pretty blehhhh run of comic books but I'm still glad to see it happen. They're not going to make lemonade out of these lemons, but like ... sure. Yup. If you've got to steer that ship in a new direction and try to tie this into a more important narrative, yeah, do it this way.


I agree. I didnt think this was bad at all.

----------


## Godlike13

The Court angle is done by January. It’s not a direction, it’s an arc. And a boring drawn out one at that. If this is what they are now saying Ric was created for, that arc should really be better then it has been.

----------


## Marilee

Okay...  I'm not reading Nightwing, and haven't read the annual, but I saw a post online with some panels in it from the book (it's where Bruce shows Dick the video of him being shot...  Which is nuts to begin with...) but there's a panel where "Ric" says his parents died because they were shot.  Last I knew, the Grayson's died because their trapeze ropes were weakened.  Has this been changed somewhere and somehow I missed it.  I remember them dying because they fell, not that they were shot.  Or did someone correct him later in the story.  Cause that's a pretty big change to his origin if it is.

----------


## L.H.

The Flying Graysons were shot in ASBR, and in this Annual they are also wearing the ASBR costume. 
I've read the Annual, and it was a mistake: I hate Ric even more. Bruce was awful and dumb, the Court of Owls plot seemed forced.
Moore art was great, I love his Damian, and that's even more sad.
Still waiting for Dick to come back, with a new writer.

----------


## Marilee

> The Flying Graysons were shot in ASBR, and in this Annual they are also wearing the ASBR costume. 
> I've read the Annual, and it was a mistake: I hate Ric even more. Bruce was awful and dumb, the Court of Owls plot seemed forced.
> Moore art was great, I love his Damian, and that's even more sad.
> Still waiting for Dick to come back, with a new writer.


Okay...  I'm a bit confused.  I thought All-Star Batman and Robin was not the continuity that the Nightwing series was set in (again, I might be wrong with this).  Am I really off-base here.  Dick was not suppose to have the "fear" of guns that Bruce has because his parents weren't shot (at least, that's how I remember it).  Is ASBR now the new continuity, or is everything just a toss-up anymore? 

I don't mean to sound confusing...  But this is kind of bugging me.

----------


## Rac7d*

Those owls need to burn makin my boys cry

----------


## L.H.

I think you're right, ASBR is not in continuity. I was just pointing out that. It could be a Jurgens mistake, I don't know.
I'm confused just like you

----------


## Badou

It was a poor attempt at Jurgens to retcon the Ric story to connect to his current Owls arc more. It wasn't very good and made no sense. The Owls actions and motivations are completely baffling here. Dick was never this grand figure the Owls must have in the original story. Also it really highlighted why I kind of dislike the Owls overall. The concept is fine, but the execution has been bad in my opinion. I dislike how much they have been crammed into Dick's history and how they forced them to be these grand manipulators in Dick's life at every turn. His background, his family, the circus, and now even this shit Ric story. I feel like they have ruined Dick's origin and history without really replacing it with anything of even equal value. I bet they will eventually have it where the Owls were actually the ones that killed Dick's parents and manipulated Dick to be taken in by Bruce eventually too at this rate.

Dick's hasn't had a "great" or "iconic" Owls story that made it all worth it I feel like. If Dick had a great Owls story where forcing them into Dick's history, family, and background felt worth it then I'd feel different. I'd be fine with how invasive they are making them, but the best Owls story was a Batman and Bruce story not a Dick or Nightwing story. Dick was just an ancillary character in Snyder's big Court of Owls story where Bruce got to do everything and Higgings Owls story, the Seeley Owls story, and especially this Jurgens Owls story have not been great. The most iconic moment Dick had in Snyder's whole Owls story was being punched in the face by Bruce, which is pathetic. People at DC look at that punch as "character development" and is probably why the character gets treated like garbage all the time.

I get some people really like the Owls, but as we see them more and more my dislike for them kind of grows. I don't think ruining Dick's background, ruining the circus setting, and especially killing off Mr Haly for the Owls was worth it in the end. Killing off Mr Haly who is maybe Dick's only recurring supporting character that is solely his and no one elses was a stupid decision. Remember all those crappy characters from that New 52 story? Raya or Saiko. So forgettable and not worth all the stuff the Owls have kind of destroyed and I don't know if there will ever be an Owls story written for Dick that will make all this feel worth it.




> Okay...  I'm a bit confused.  I thought All-Star Batman and Robin was not the continuity that the Nightwing series was set in (again, I might be wrong with this).  Am I really off-base here.  Dick was not suppose to have the "fear" of guns that Bruce has because his parents weren't shot (at least, that's how I remember it).  Is ASBR now the new continuity, or is everything just a toss-up anymore? 
> 
> I don't mean to sound confusing...  But this is kind of bugging me.


ASBR should not be in continuity and Dick should have no fear of guns. It is the creators not understanding the character.

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> Okay...  I'm a bit confused.  I thought All-Star Batman and Robin was not the continuity that the Nightwing series was set in (again, I might be wrong with this).  Am I really off-base here.  Dick was not suppose to have the "fear" of guns that Bruce has because his parents weren't shot (at least, that's how I remember it).  Is ASBR now the new continuity, or is everything just a toss-up anymore? 
> 
> I don't mean to sound confusing...  But this is kind of bugging me.


No worries. It's understandable.

ASBR takes place in Frank Miller's "Dark Knight" universe, I believe. So this is either a retcon or a mistake. It would be wild, though (and this is just silly speculation on my part), if it turns out that the whole "out" for the Ric storyline is that the book has been set in the ASBR universe since #50.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It was a poor attempt at Jurgens to retcon the Ric story to connect to his current Owls arc more. It wasn't very good and made no sense. The Owls actions and motivations are completely baffling here. Dick was never this grand figure the Owls must have in the original story. Also it really highlighted why I kind of dislike the Owls overall. The concept is fine, but the execution has been bad in my opinion. I dislike how much they have been crammed into Dick's history and how they forced them to be these grand manipulators in Dick's life at every turn. His background, his family, the circus, and now even this shit Ric story. I feel like they have ruined Dick's origin and history without really replacing it with anything of even equal value. I bet they will eventually have it where the Owls were actually the ones that killed Dick's parents and manipulated Dick to be taken in by Bruce eventually too at this rate.
> 
> Dick's hasn't had a "great" or "iconic" Owls story that made it all worth it I feel like. If Dick had a great Owls story where forcing them into Dick's history, family, and background felt worth it then I'd feel different. I'd be fine with how invasive they are making them, but the best Owls story was a Batman and Bruce story not a Dick or Nightwing story. Dick was just an ancillary character in Snyder's big Court of Owls story where Bruce got to do everything and Higgings Owls story, the Seeley Owls story, and especially this Jurgens Owls story have not been great. The most iconic moment Dick had in Snyder's whole Owls story was being punched in the face by Bruce, which is pathetic. People at DC look at that punch as "character development" and is probably why the character gets treated like garbage all the time.
> 
> I get some people really like the Owls, but as we see them more and more my dislike for them kind of grows. I don't think ruining Dick's background, ruining the circus setting, and especially killing off Mr Haly for the Owls was worth it in the end. Killing off Mr Haly who is maybe Dick's only recurring supporting character that is solely his and no one elses was a stupid decision. Remember all those crappy characters from that New 52 story? Raya or Saiko. So forgettable and not worth all the stuff the Owls have kind of destroyed and I don't know if there will ever be an Owls story written for Dick that will make all this feel worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> ASBR should not be in continuity and Dick should have no fear of guns. It is the creators not understanding the character.


Dick of course not, but this ric persona brainwashed

----------


## Ascended

> Dick's hasn't had a "great" or "iconic" Owls story that made it all worth it I feel like.


He hasn't. At least not yet. But you never know, someone could come along and really make the whole thing work right.




> I get some people really like the Owls, but as we see them more and more my dislike for them kind of grows.


I really like the basic concept. A secret society in Gotham? Of course there is. I'm actually sort of surprised no one really dived into the idea before this. Great name, great creepy masks, great enforcers in the Talons. Excellent foundation for a new Gotham rogue group. But it seems like the more they get used the less interesting and more....weird....they become. I really didn't care for what Metal did with them. Like, all of a sudden they worship a bat demon? Just.....what? Why? Where did *that* come from? Did I overlook something from earlier stories (like the Black Mirror or whatever that I still haven't read)? They seemed like such a great way to get back around to some of the pulp/detective elements the Bat mythos has moved away from....and all of a sudden they're using cosmic space metals to summon a bat demon who's going to eat the world. 

As far as Dick and the Owls go.....I'm not against them using the circus as a recruiting ground. It's not anything Dick would have seen or experienced so it doesn't impact his development. It's like growing up and finding out your parents had struggled a lot with money but you never knew it. It puts a little tarnish on those childhood memories but nothing more. And I can see why the Owls would recruit from among circus performers, and why Haly would have to let them (he's touring through Gotham, Haly certainly cut deals with other unsavory folk). But there's a line I don't want crossed here. The Owls could have considered Dick a potential recruit before the Grayson shooting, Dicks grand-daddy might've been a former recruit too, but I don't want or need them pulling every string behind Dick's life and choices. Dick still needs to have agency in his own story, not be the pawn of a unseen power.

----------


## Godlike13

> He hasn't. At least not yet. But you never know, someone could come along and really make the whole thing work right.


That someone sure isn’t Jurgan’s though. He is well into his Owls arc and it’s been nothing but a drawn out bore. The covers accomplish as much as his by the numbers story has. His Cobb is beyond terrible. Cobb has some how gone from a stoic zombie like assassin, to a mustache twirling villain that doesn’t shut up and is nothing but talk. And this lame ass story is what Jurgan’s is now trying to say Ric has been leading too. Which is sadly I guess better then the obvious reality that Ric was never actually leading to jack shit, and nobody on the title had a clue what they were actually doing with it. So now they are just tying to insert something well after the fact. Which ok I guess is something, but part of me would respect the people on the Nightwing book more if they just owned up to their laziness and obvious failings with the title. 

Btw between Cobb and the ASBR origin here, I question if Jurgan's did much research for his run.

----------


## Aahz

> It was a poor attempt at Jurgens to retcon the Ric story to connect to his current Owls arc more. It wasn't very good and made no sense. The Owls actions and motivations are completely baffling here. Dick was never this grand figure the Owls must have in the original story. Also it really highlighted why I kind of dislike the Owls overall. The concept is fine, but the execution has been bad in my opinion. I dislike how much they have been crammed into Dick's history and how they forced them to be these grand manipulators in Dick's life at every turn. His background, his family, the circus, and now even this shit Ric story. I feel like they have ruined Dick's origin and history without really replacing it with anything of even equal value. I bet they will eventually have it where the Owls were actually the ones that killed Dick's parents and manipulated Dick to be taken in by Bruce eventually too at this rate.


The big Problem with the Owls is imo also that they have been compelty destroyed several times in the comics, it just makes no reason that they still exist.

----------


## Badou

> I really like the basic concept. A secret society in Gotham? Of course there is. I'm actually sort of surprised no one really dived into the idea before this.


I think the concept of them is great with what Snyder and Capullo did with them in his Batman run, and I completely understand why readers would be fans of the concept. I don't fault them for it as tt is very interesting, but when it comes to Dick I feel like we haven't had that killer story yet to make it all worth it. If we had that then I'd be a lot more accommodating. 




> The big Problem with the Owls is imo also that they have been compelty destroyed several times in the comics, it just makes no reason that they still exist.


Yeah, they are falling into that League of Assassins category of kind of being an organization that shows up just to be defeated, and their actions lack the punch they used to. I don't think anyone really knows what their goal is anymore.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, they are falling into that League of Assassins category of kind of being an organization that shows up just to be defeated, and their actions lack the punch they used to. I don't think anyone really knows what their goal is anymore.


With the League they loose but they were never really destoyed, and the losses they usually have a probably pretty minor in comparison to their size.

The Owls should have been imo allready finished after Lincon March killed all the leaders, and after what happend during Seeleys run on Nightwing there should really be almost nothing left of them.

----------


## L.H.

Or, just like Talons, they all can resurrect.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, the annual really wasn't bad. If the owl arc had been better overall, this would feel like a genius retcon which would allow usto ignore all the burnback bullshit. Instead, though, its marred by how boring the overall arc has been.

On the subject of the court their role with the circus, I like it overall. I think it can establish Bill Haly (or CC or whoever is in charge) as the first ring leader to refuse the owls their conscript. That has the potential for real emotional impact.

----------


## OWL45

Is the female doctor that treated him possibly related?

----------


## byrd156

> Btw between Cobb and the ASBR origin here, I question if Jurgan's did much research for his run.


Yeah the ASBAR stuff reeks of a lazy google search. Or he just really really liked the convoluted plan of Joker hiring a guy to shoot Dick's parents in a crowded circus tent instead of making it look like an accident. Either one works if you don't think about it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I haven't read the issue but I saw a theory that the memory of his parents being shot might be a false one implanted by the owls. Does that make sense to any of you guys who read the issue?

----------


## L.H.

No, It doesn't make sense, cause Damian was the first to say that Dick's parents were gunned down.

----------


## Badou

Has Jurgens said anything about retconning Dick's parents deaths to the ASBR origin? For someone that has been around comics as long as him this feels like a major mistake unless this was somehow intentional? His decisions here with saying his parents never called him Dick (which isn't true) to come up with some dumb reason why Dick started going by Ric and the changing of their deaths to give Dick some fear of gun feels super bizarre. This feels very lazy. How did this get past editorial.

----------


## Godlike13

> Has Jurgens said anything about retconning Dick's parents deaths to the ASBR origin? For someone that has been around comics as long as him this feels like a major mistake unless this was somehow intentional? His decisions here with saying his parents never called him Dick (which isn't true) to come up with some dumb reason why Dick started going by Ric and the changing of their deaths to give Dick some fear of gun feels super bizarre. This feels very lazy. *How did this get past editorial.*


Cause they are lazy and don't really give a shit, and like Lobdell Jurgan's is one of the good hands that are seemingly protected and afforded more leeway then makes sense give how low their work charts.

----------


## yohyoi

I heard Nightwing is good again. That's good news.

----------


## yohyoi

Jurgens turning this Ric thing around. Things getting interesting.

----------


## Blue22

> I heard Nightwing is good again. That's good news.


Oh....somebody lied to you, friend XD

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, its really not. The bar is just really low.

----------


## yohyoi

> Oh....somebody lied to you, friend XD


I liked it. Ric isn't pointless anymore. I'm anticipating the next issue.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is still pointless, Jurgan's Talon arc is as much of a lazy dud as anything that came before. Its not going anywhere.

----------


## yohyoi

Just my opinion, friend.

----------


## Blue22

Yeah. Ric now being tangled in some convoluted Court of Owls scheme (again) doesn't really stop him from being useless. He's still the same boring lump of nothing that wore out his welcome the second he was introduced. At this point, any semblance of a story he has left is just filler until Dick returns.

----------


## yohyoi

Sounds like Superior Spider-Man yet I liked that too.

----------


## Blue22

> Sounds like Superior Spider-Man yet I liked that too.


I was actually kinda into that too. The concept was incredibly stupid but it ended up being one of the most interesting things to ever happen to Otto in recent years. Maybe if Ric had been half as compelling as Superior Spider-man, the situations could have been similar. 

A Nightwing amnesia story isn't really a idea (Shit I've read fanfics that did it better than this entire arc) but the execution here is just soooo....bad. Ric is a boring, unlikable asshat who bitches about superhero life while actively working as a superhero. His family are all horrible people for abandoning him. His squadron of Nightwing cops are all as boring as he is. The retcons made to his past (again) are unnecessary. And him getting wrapped up in another Court of Owls plot just makes this whole thing even more pointless when the entire point of "Ric" was to tread new ground with the character.

----------


## Badou

It really was nothing like Superior Spider-man. That had actual thought and care put into it. This story was very lazily put together and had a bunch of forced retcons that made no sense. Ric and his entire supporting cast are still worthless and frustrating. Moore's art was good as always, but outside of that I really don't get why this Annual is getting praise.

----------


## Godlike13

Saying that Ric was all for a dragged out lazy tie-in arc, that we know by the January solics, goes nowhere doesn't make Ric actually any better. This deus ex machina of Jurgan's is self serving. Its just more lazy writing, treating Nightwing readers as if their stupid and haven't realize what the deal really was with Ric. Jurgan's is taking advantage of the previous laziness to try and make his current arc seem more important. Inserting the illusion of a plan well after the fact. Ric as a character still sucks, his reactions and personally here were still as boring and unlikable as ever, and Jurgan's story isn't actually going anywhere either. Halfway in and it is as much of a dud as anything that came before. In the end when the Court go though all this just to fail by January and get beat by Ric and a group of nobodies, they are just gonna look stupid and more watered down. Maybe if they were gonna run with Dick becoming a Talon, but we know thats not going to happen. Ric and the nobodies triumph. As if thats who anybody is rooting for at this point.

----------


## Godlike13

> It really was nothing like Superior Spider-man. That had actual thought and care put into it. This story was very lazily put together and had a bunch of forced retcons that made no sense. Ric and his entire supporting cast are still worthless and frustrating. Moore's art was good as always, but outside of that I really don't get why this Annual is getting praise.


Cause the bar is so low in regards to Ric, anything that is even sort of coherent is an improvement.

----------


## Ansa

> It really was nothing like Superior Spider-man. That had actual thought and care put into it. This story was very lazily put together and had a bunch of forced retcons that made no sense. Ric and his entire supporting cast are still worthless and frustrating. Moore's art was good as always, but outside of that I really don't get why this Annual is getting praise.


I wanted to know how the members of the batfamily reacted to Dick not remembering and we got that. Especially Damian was written and drawn well. His words were angry but the art made it obvious that he was desperate and just wants his brother back. This should have come out months ago though.
After over a year of repetetive and boring storytelling the bar is so low that even small improvements, like including the batfamily,  get praise.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> No, It doesn't make sense, cause Damian was the first to say that Dick's parents were gunned down.


Crap. I had my fingers crossed for that. 




> I wanted to know how the members of the batfamily reacted to Dick not remembering and we got that. Especially Damian was written and drawn well. His words were angry but the art made it obvious that he was desperate and just wants his brother back. This should have come out months ago though.
> After over a year of repetetive and boring storytelling the bar is so low that even small improvements, like including the batfamily,  get praise.


I've seen some of the scans and I've been really tempted to buy this issue, but all the scans I seen dealt with the aftermath of the shooting. Is there any explanation as to why the family is letting him squat in innocent people's houses? Or fighting crime while brain damaged?

----------


## Fergus

Or being a sidekick when he said he no longer wanted to be a hero?

The Annual was far from perfect and it came too late but man still made me feel warm inside.

----------


## Godlike13

> Crap. I had my fingers crossed for that. 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen some of the scans and I've been really tempted to buy this issue, but all the scans I seen dealt with the aftermath of the shooting. Is there any explanation as to why the family is letting him squat in innocent people's houses? Or fighting crime while brain damaged?


None. Just that Ric ran away crying over how mean Batman is (which holy crap Jurgan’s Bruce is a moron). Best guess, they don’t want that bitch after that embarrassing display. 

Those tenders moments are just hollow pandering, that like most of the issue just fall apart next to the Ric run. If Ric was so important to them, then where the F have they been. Same goes for the Court. If Jurgan’s had any sense he’d reveal Bea as a Court plant to try and make sense of that, but he won’t even have the deadly assassin that supposedly is Cobb kill anyone so that probably won’t happen.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Did they at least explain why the CoO is so desperate to recruit Dick?

----------


## Godlike13

> Did they at least explain why the CoO is so desperate to recruit Dick?


Cause Cobb wants him. Why the Court now gives a crap about what one of their zombified worker bees want, I do not know, but nothing about Jurgan’s take on Cobb or the Court makes very much sense with what came before with them.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I got the impression that the Talons were basically brainwashed goons and they were ordered about by society's elite. I mean I could go for an arc where Cobb and Dick team up to free the Talons from the Courts clutches but I'm not buying any of this. It feels like DC is just throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks.

----------


## Ansa

> I got the impression that the Talons were basically brainwashed goons and they were ordered about by society's elite. I mean I could go for an arc where Cobb and Dick team up to free the Talons from the Courts clutches but I'm not buying any of this. It feels like DC is just throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks.


To be fair, a lot if not most of what dc does right now feels like this.

----------


## Restingvoice

Ahahahaha! Trying to make it tragic but they can't even get the death of his parents right. People thought the caption saying Dick has been a superhero for 20 years as a hint to a new timeline but looks like it's just plain wrong.

...Then it turns out DC actually trying to make ASBAR Dick's back story in that new timeline or something. 




> Did they at least explain why the CoO is so desperate to recruit Dick?


The New 52 made Dick a supreme prodigy that every bad guy wants. The Court, Lady Shiva, Spyral... and the Night of the Owls issue of The Dark Knight said Dick was a candidate they found, not groomed (Haly's Circus is supposed to be a secret training ground, but Dick was already that good without their training) so I just stop thinking because the reason seems to simply be because he's _that_ good.

Also, they're not that desperate. They only care to put an effort to recruit Dick when it's convenient, like when Bruce was amnesia and Dick was presumed dead to the world and now when Dick's amnesia. When things are "normal" they're not doing it.

----------


## Blue22

Whelp. These past two weeks have not been very good to Dick in the Titans show...but at least last week's episode was good. Today's though....Wasn't really feeling it. And it felt like everyone but Kory was being stupid to an almost out of character extent. So Dick wasn't alone in the idiot department this week.

----------


## nightbird

> Whelp. These past two weeks have not been very good to Dick in the Titans show...but at least last week's episode was good. Today's though....Wasn't really feeling it. And it felt like everyone but Kory was being stupid to an almost out of character extent. So Dick wasn't alone in the idiot department this week.


Nah, Dick did nothing really idiotic in the show whatsoever so far. In the long run things that turned out to be mistakes (but not as deep as he thinks)? Yes. But nothing really idiotic. I would go as far as to say that he was actually the only one who was despite his psychological problems actually the only sane one. Because everyone else beside him, Gar and Kory were mostly annoying with their antics and sometimes blatant hypocrisy. And so far Dick still the only guy around, who doesn’t play “shift the blame” game. That includes Slade and Adeline.

----------


## Schumiac

All the annual did was explain why Dick would want nothing to do with Bruce, the psychopath who is keeping his bloodied nightwing costume in a trophy box and has a video of him being shot in the head and showed it to him like 5 minutes in to the house tour. 


So, I am to believe Bruce went and got Dick "supposedly" world's best doctor, and then left Dick all alone with that said doctor to do as they like without bothering to monitor those sessions just once? Really? Since when is he so trusting? Wasn't he at the very least worried his brain damaged son may end up spilling their secrets unknowingly?  Same Bruce who apparently took some time out from rushing a "shot-in-head, every second matters" Dick to the hospital to change him into civilian clothes so he would be admitted as Dick Grayson, not Nightwing.  

Also love that the welcoming "house tour" consisted of "here is an old art work, here is a portrait of Bruce's dead parents. What did you say, this doesn't feel warm and homey? Ok, come, here is the secret Bat cave and here are the clothes you were shot in with your dried blood still on them, and here is the footage of you getting shot. What do you mean you don't want to stay here and all this didn't just jolt your memory back? IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, COME BACK!" Gee, thanks Bruce & Bat family. Great effort. 

Really, the annual did Bruce more disservice than anyone else. That was just so horrid. He is an incompetent, thoughtless idiot with major anger issues who seems inconvenienced by Dick not having his memories back and wants him to gain them ASAP but doesn't really feel like putting much personal effort into helping him out in that regard. If money can't buy it, Bruce can't help it, sorry, too busy punching walls and shouting "this is unacceptable". Nothing Bruce said or did was "personal"  and it did feel like he was more concerned with getting Nightwing back and putting this tragedy behind him then anything else. He didn't really even try to connect with Dick. How about talking about some nice father-son moments and happy memories rather than showing him a footage of his brains being blown out, Bruce?! This is the most vulnerable Dick has ever been and if he ever needed Bruce to look after him and protect him it was now, and Bruce failed miserably. He left Dick at the mercy of a stranger who used the opportunity to further supress his memories and manipulate him away from his family, and  Bruce couldn't even be bothered to put in some personal effort to reconnect with his son, and just left him be. I get this is supposed to tie into Bruce's extreme guilt and the fact he is in a particularly bad and messed up state himself and at his lowest,  but that is no excuse. 

Wish DC would stop their atrocious treatment of Dick and Bruce already. Ugh. 

I don't mind the Owls doing little touches along the way to manipulate a potential recruit their way slowly, and I can buy how having a proper Thanksgiving dinner with "relatives" may be a special memory for a little boy whose entire life is spent in a traveling circus. But the "children's book about an owl" being part of that manipulation and standing out so much in his memory? LMAO! I do wonder what is in that book!

Annual did make it sound like the Owls have been obsessing over recruiting Dick Grayson for years now, and for no other discernable reason than the fact he is a "natural" trapeze artist like his mother said. Which is also kind of hilarious. 

Also that video? So was Batman meeting with Jim all these years in a place where they have police surveilance and cameras and being captured in vid all the time? Or is it him who just loves to record his meeting with Jim on the rooftop?

Damian's "wake up!" scene with Dick was pretty much the one and only highlight of this thing.

----------


## Schumiac

> Nah, Dick did nothing really idiotic in the show whatsoever so far. In the long run things that turned out to be mistakes (but not as deep as he thinks)? Yes. But nothing really idiotic. I would go as far as to say that he was actually the only one who was despite his psychological problems actually the only sane one. Because everyone else beside him, Gar and Kory were mostly annoying with their antics and sometimes blatant hypocrisy. And so far Dick still the only guy around, who doesn’t play “shift the blame” game. That includes Slade and Adeline.


Yeah I am more disappointed with the rest of the Titans than Dick at this point (especially with Donna). And really sick and tired of the "blame Dick for everything" game they play. He makes mistakes, yes. But so does everyone. He keeps secrets and it backfires, yes. But so does everyone! (Looking at you, Rachel!) 

I could really use an episode or two without Hank and Dawn, btw. Bored with them and their holier-than-thou attitudes and angst.  

Hard to buy these people were ever really good friends, and considered one another "family" tbh.

I want show-Bruce back. Wouldn't object to more scenes with him hilariously dancing with show girls, either, even if all in Dick's mind. lol

----------


## Drako

> Hard to buy these people were ever really good friends, and considered one another "family" tbh.


I'm liking this season, but i have to agree.
The Aqualad episode was great because their interactions were really good and they looked like real friends. Since then, it's about pointing fingers. 

How do you abandon your friend when he screw up and not even try to help him? Also, Dawn is really pissing me off.

"Be Batman" "Actually, can you be a little less Batman?" "Oh my god, how could you done such a thing?"

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah I am more disappointed with the rest of the Titans than Dick at this point (especially with Donna). And really sick and tired of the "blame Dick for everything" game they play. He makes mistakes, yes. But so does everyone. He keeps secrets and it backfires, yes. But so does everyone! (Looking at you, Rachel!) 
> 
> I could really use an episode or two without Hank and Dawn, btw. Bored with them and their holier-than-thou attitudes and angst.  
> 
> Hard to buy these people were ever really good friends, and considered one another "family" tbh.
> 
> I want show-Bruce back. Wouldn't object to more scenes with him hilariously dancing with show girls, either, even if all in Dick's mind. lol


Everyone is blaming Dick, because he is allowing it. Which is pretty much in character for Grayson. I dunno why he even went to Adeline, when she is not innocent either and in no position to give him some forgiveness. At least we saw, that maybe Joey still inside and Slade.

----------


## nightbird

> I'm liking this season, but i have to agree.
> The Aqualad episode was great because their interactions were really good and they looked like real friends. Since then, it's about pointing fingers. 
> 
> How do you abandon your friend when he screw up and not even try to help him? Also, Dawn is really pissing me off.
> 
> "Be Batman" "Actually, can you be a little less Batman?" "Oh my god, how could you done such a thing?"


Hank and Dawn should really go somewhere else and give room for more interesting Titans instead. 1st season they were boring, this season plain unlikable and annoying. 
Like Donna showed some hypocrisy too and I’m kinda mad at her, but at least she is still likable in my eyes. And they’re not trying to make “a voice of reason” this season.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, I don’t get why Donna was pissed. She was all for using Jericho more. Overall though I get what they were trying to accomplish dramatically, but it was rather forced. All the older Titans were also guilty. Not just Dick. But I still like the character arc for Dick they are going for.

----------


## Schumiac

So people caught that Slade/Jericho was signing "HELP" when Slade was talking to Dick, which is what lead to DS turning his chair back on Dick, facing the wall as he tried to regain full control, followed by his angry "Grayson" shout and the threat to kill all Titans... Of course it was an effort wasted on Dick as show Dick doesn't know sign language (for some reason)... So now there is a theory Jericho jumped into Dick and attacked the airport guards in an effort to stop Dick from leaving and actually hoping to get the Titans in actions. Which is rather interesting.

----------


## Pohzee

That's a pretty good catch. I do think that it is likely that Jericho is trapped inside of Slade. But I think Jericho is probably trapped in Slade. I think the whole airport scene is all Dick's doing. And I hope so too because that would be more interesting.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So people caught that Slade/Jericho was signing "HELP" when Slade was talking to Dick, which is what lead to DS turning his chair back on Dick, facing the wall as he tried to regain full control, followed by his angry "Grayson" shout and the threat to kill all Titans... Of course it was an effort wasted on Dick as show Dick doesn't know sign language (for some reason)... So now there is a theory Jericho jumped into Dick and attacked the airport guards in an effort to stop Dick from leaving and actually hoping to get the Titans in actions. Which is rather interesting.


that would be terrifying
the only titans who knows sign language is Dove.......

----------


## Blue22

> Nah, Dick did nothing really idiotic in the show whatsoever so far. In the long run things that turned out to be mistakes (but not as deep as he thinks)? Yes. But nothing really idiotic. I would go as far as to say that he was actually the only one who was despite his psychological problems actually the only sane one. Because everyone else beside him, Gar and Kory were mostly annoying with their antics and sometimes blatant hypocrisy. And so far Dick still the only guy around, who doesn’t play “shift the blame” game. That includes Slade and Adeline.


Like I said, everyone gets to pass around the idiot ball in this whole Slade situation (Adeline included. Seriously. Fuck her) but Dick being the easiest to understand (and arguably the least idiotic) doesn't make him exempt. 

Not really explaining to Jericho why he broke his promise (A simple "Your Dad just slaughtered a bunch of Amazons just to lure out Donna" would have sufficed instead of the cryptic "He's killed again!"). Allowing the other Titans to blame him for everything when even he points out that he was only doing what they wanted. The lies and half truths he's told all season. Leaving Gar alone with a Kryptonian experiment created by Lex Luthor (and, as we see in next week's episode, that's gonna come back to bite him). And I'm not entirely sure what his plan is after what he did at the end of this episode but I'm not totally unconvinced that it's some ridiculous form of atonement. I get that some of this stuff is the show intentionally making Dick look foolish because he's going through an arc...but it can still be frustrating to watch. I'd add not questioning Adeline about why Slade's in her house. But, if they're going where I think they're going with this, I'll look the other way.

But even though he's annoyed the hell out of me these past two episodes, he hasn't been anywhere near as annoying as Hank and Dawn have been all season. I love how high and mighty these two are when everything is just as much their fault as it is Dick's. Especially Dawn (who, on an unrelated note, kept talking to Jericho like he was deaf for some reason). And if they're supposed to be laying low (even going as far as to change their names), why would they move back to the same exact town they were in before and make public spectacles of themselves at a karaoke bar (in one of the cringiest scenes I've ever witnessed on this show)? Then again, with how much these characters like to work without their costumes, being inconspicuous is probably something they're all bad at. I hope they're, incredibly forced, break up means we won't be seeing them for a bit. They were the worst parts of season 1 and, while better, they're the worst parts of this season too.

As much as I LOVE this season, it hasn't done the original Titans any favors. They're all a lot more likable and fleshed out than they were in the last season....but they're all so damn stupid. And some of that stupidity and hypocrisy is bleeding out onto the newbies (Didn't forget about you, Gar and Rachel). But at least we've got Kory. Aside from not taking Rachel's concerns as seriously as she probably should have, I haven't really found too many issues with her. In fact, this season has pretty much solidified her as my favorite character.

----------


## Roliver Queen

This just popped in my head...

Are we ever gonna get that dark web storyline wrapped up?

I know Percy is gone but it still is up in the air...?

----------


## Rac7d*

> This just popped in my head...
> 
> Are we ever gonna get that dark web storyline wrapped up?
> 
> I know Percy is gone but it still is up in the air...?


Evil doesn’t stop just becuase nightwing got shot, I believe it reached its conclusions in batgirl

----------


## WonderNight

Once ric is done and dick is back in bludhaven do you guys think it will return back to a vegas/alantic city style city or will they just keep the gridy urban look? Which do you prefer. Me vegas style all day.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Once ric is done and dick is back in bludhaven do you guys think it will return back to a vegas/alantic city style city or will they just keep the gridy urban look? Which do you prefer. Me vegas style all day.


They're not mutually exclusive...

----------


## WonderNight

> They're not mutually exclusive...


True. But a consistent tone and identity thats different from dc other cities a specially gotham only helps.

----------


## dietrich

> Once ric is done and dick is back in bludhaven do you guys think it will return back to a vegas/alantic city style city or will they just keep the gridy urban look? Which do you prefer. Me vegas style all day.


I like the vegas theme

----------


## Rac7d*

It’s the city on fire right now 


> I like the vegas theme

----------


## Pohzee

Oh gawd that’s a depressing thought. Right back to the same old crap. Nuke Blüdhaven again.

----------


## Godlike13

> Once ric is done and dick is back in bludhaven do you guys think it will return back to a vegas/alantic city style city or will they just keep the gridy urban look? Which do you prefer. Me vegas style all day.


Depends on the kind of creators we get after Ric.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh gawd that’s a depressing thought. Right back to the same old crap. Nuke Blüdhaven again.


Nah
Nightwing needs a home that is just his, he just doesn’t need to be home all the time

----------


## Tzigone

I like Bludhaven (well, in the 1990s) and am very much a fan of stationary home location and steady supporting cast. I just don't enjoy traveling stories or rotating supporting cast stories. I can't get attached.  And I like getting attached to a supporting cast.  They often matter as much (or more) than the hero to me.  The are also much more suited to other media - series and movies. More accessible for audience (an a problem for Wonder Woman in not having one).  Though I care about that far less about that than me enjoying the title.

----------


## Pohzee

Have him operate out of NYC. Sure its less distinctive, but he has more meaningful history in New York.

Dick doesn't work in his own city with his own mythos because he doesn't have enough established and never will. Put him in New York and have him play in the sandbox with others.

You want him interacting with other superheroes, that's how you do it.

----------


## Godlike13

How will NYC or any city be any different then the Bludhaven situation. DC isn't marvel, its not a superhero hub.

----------


## Pohzee

The NTT were there and should be there. Which allows Dick to plausibly lead the Titans and still have solo stories without conflicting interests. The JSA was there. Firestorm. It just generally makes more sense for heroes to swing by NYC than Blüdhaven. Vigilante. He went to college in New York. etc. etc.

When Blüdhaven was nuked, he didn't go back there. When Darkseid started the end of the world in Blüdhaven, he didn't get a single line.

----------


## Godlike13

And if Darkseid started the end of the world in NYC with Dick there, you think he would have got a line then? The Titans are lost and irrelevant in general, the JSA is MIA, and Firestorm is honestly rather random. I don't think the potential of hanging out with Firestorm makes it a better choice, or inherently is going to make for better stories. I can take or leave Bludhaven at this point, but its not this fall guy some of you guys try to make it. They make it boring, they make it isolated, they make it irrelevant, and they make it so that anything done with it is thrown out with the next creator. Being in NYC isn't gonna make guys like Lobdell or Jurgans open things up and be less generic. No matter where he goes these problems will follow, cause at the end of the day Bludhaven is not the true cause. They even did move him to NYC after they blew up Bludhaven, and nothing was any different. The shit they were doing was just as generic and boring, if not more even. Same with Abnett's Titans.

----------


## Pohzee

The JSA, Superman, and John Stewart showed up in the first two arcs of Tomasi's run. Dick's storylines in NYC were at least name dropped in Blackest Night. In the first year or so he was there.

In Blüdhaven, he was more things that are his own. By his own. Completely isolated. And all those things suck anyways.

The only reason for a hero to go to Blüdhaven is to see NW. There's plenty of more reasons to go to NY, but they can still also just go there to see NW.

And there's still no good reason for Dick to be in Blüdhaven. He has no connections there. So many efforts have been made but they all failed. I could buy a connection to the Titans in NYC way more. Even if the Titans are no longer active, there's a reason for Dick to have been there.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The JSA, Superman, and John Stewart showed up in the first two arcs of Tomasi's run. Dick's storylines in NYC were at least name dropped in Blackest Night. In the first year or so he was there.
> 
> In Blüdhaven, he was more things that are his own. By his own. Completely isolated. And all those things suck anyways.
> 
> The only reason for a hero to go to Blüdhaven is to see NW. There's plenty of more reasons to go to NY, but they can still also just go there to see NW.
> 
> And there's still no good reason for Dick to be in Blüdhaven. He has no connections there. So many efforts have been made but they all failed. I could buy a connection to the Titans in NYC way more. Even if the Titans are no longer active, there's a reason for Dick to have been there.


He is no more islated then any other hero in their city
I  dont get the hate for bludhaven

----------


## Pohzee

> He is no more islated then any other hero in their city
> I  dont get the hate for bludhaven


People aren’t asking for the Flash to be well connected.

----------


## Badou

> And if Darkseid started the end of the world in NYC with Dick there, you think he would have got a line then? The Titans are lost and irrelevant in general, the JSA is MIA, and Firestorm is honestly rather random. I don't think the potential of hanging out with Firestorm makes it a better choice, or inherently is going to make for better stories. I can take or leave Bludhaven at this point, but its not this fall guy some of you guys try to make it. They make it boring, they make it isolated, they make it irrelevant, and they make it so that anything done with it is thrown out with the next creator. Being in NYC isn't gonna make guys like Lobdell or Jurgans open things up and be less generic. No matter where he goes these problems will follow, cause at the end of the day Bludhaven is not the true cause. They even did moved him to NYC after they blew up Bludhaven, and nothing was any different. The shit they were doing was just as generic and boring, if not more even. Same with Abnett's Titans.


I very much disagree, which I guess isn't a surprise. Bludhaven is the problem. There is nothing of value there. Hundreds of issues there and nothing of value has been created. Doesn't matter if you dress it up to make it look like Vegas or make it look like a gritter Gotham. It is all the same. It isn't a location creators are driven to write stories in. A NYC at least affords creators the opportunity to have Dick interact with other heroes more because it is a city where other heroes operate. Bludhaven is just used to isolate Dick and write him out of the DCU. That is its main function now. No one other than Dick operates in Bludhaven and that will never change. This entire Ric story line is them having to drag villains from Gotham to Bludhaven because there is no one in Bludhaven that is useful. I'd rather Dick be in a place where there is at least the opportunity for more types of stories than him being stuck in a place that we know will never happen in Bludhaven be that NYC, Gotham, Spyral, and so on.

----------


## byrd156

I just hope we get a solid creative team that has a vision and little to no editorial interference.

----------


## Godlike13

> I very much disagree, which I guess isn't a surprise. Bludhaven is the problem. There is nothing of value there. Hundreds of issues there and nothing of value has been created. Doesn't matter if you dress it up to make it look like Vegas or make it look like a gritter Gotham. It is all the same. It isn't a location creators are driven to write stories in. A NYC at least affords creators the opportunity to have Dick interact with other heroes more because it is a city where other heroes operate. Bludhaven is just used to isolate Dick and write him out of the DCU. That is its main function now. No one other than Dick operates in Bludhaven and that will never change. This entire Ric story line is them having to drag villains from Gotham to Bludhaven because there is no one in Bludhaven that is useful. I'd rather Dick be in a place where there is at least the opportunity for more types of stories than him being stuck in a place that we know will never happen in Bludhaven be that NYC, Gotham, Spyral, and so on.


Bludheven isn't responsible for creating things of value. Be it Bludhaven or NYC, we have seen him in both, it's just a setting creators are responsible for making intresting. They can isolate him in NYC just as much as Bludhaven. Again it's not really a superhero hub, and it doesn't have a an inherent mythology with a cast of villains of it's own any more then Bludhaven does in the DCU. They will have to choose to have him interact with other heroes same as with Bludhaven for the most part. And what's more, if it was a hub what does it even need Nightwing for then. 

Now I agree in that I'm at a point where i think they should drop the whole stationary city protector with him entirely. That would better keep creators from falling into the same old boring traps. Where just moving him to a different city has already been proven not to.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Bludheven isn't responsible for creating things of value. Be it Bludhaven or NYC, we have seen him in both, it's just a setting creators are responsible for making intresting. They can isolate him in NYC just as much as Bludhaven. Again it's not a superhero hub, and it doesn't have a an inherent mythology with a cast of villains of it's own any more then Bludhaven does in the DCU. They will have to choose to have him interact with other heroes same as with Bludhaven for the most part. And what's more, if it was a hub what does it even need Nightwing for then. 
> 
> Now I agree in that I'm at a point where i think they should drop the whole stationary city protector with him entirely. That would better keep creators from falling into the same old boring traps. Where just moving him to a different city has already been proven not to.


Something similar to Young Justice Outsiders? I could get into that.

----------


## Badou

> Bludheven isn't responsible for creating things of value. Be it Bludhaven or NYC, we have seen him in both, it's just a setting creators are responsible for making intresting. They can isolate him in NYC just as much as Bludhaven. Again it's not a superhero hub, and it doesn't have a an inherent mythology with a cast of villains of it's own any more then Bludhaven does in the DCU. They will have to choose to have him interact with other heroes same as with Bludhaven for the most part. And what's more, if it was a hub what does it even need Nightwing for then. 
> 
> Now I agree in that I'm at a point where i think they should drop the whole stationary city protector with him entirely. That would better keep creators from falling into the same old boring traps. Where just moving him to a different city has already been proven to not.


It is about opportunity, and a setting like NYC has a better opportunity for those DCU interactions just because of the characters that live and work in that city compared to a city like Bludhaven. It is more difficult to create something of lasting value in a setting like Bludhaven than it is in a setting where there are more resources. Sure, it doesn't mean writers will use them and he can be just as isolated in a place like NYC as he is in Bludhaven, but it affords them at least more of an opportunity to use them. Like the simple scene when Dick moved to NYC before and the JSA helped him move into his new apartment is something that can't happen in Bludhaven by it being empty of other heroes. It is a setting that isn't able to support other heroes and writers have to constantly look for reasons to drag heroes in from outside temporarily, which means those writers are constantly working from a weaker position. 

But my first choice would be to do away with the stationary city protector angle like you said. I'm just done with that whole idea at this point, but if I can't have that then I'd want him to operate in a setting that affords him the most opportunity in terms of stories and interactions and I don't think Bludhaven will even be that.

----------


## Godlike13

Man, you guys are really hung up on the JSA. I honestly don't remember those NYC stories being that amazing because the JSA helped him move in a page. In fact except for Tomasi's run, most of them were worse then the Budhaven stuff. Which IMO is why Tomasi's run, where he transplanted just Bat villains to NYC btw, is remembered as fondly as it is. You guys don't think Dick can call a bunch of superhuman's who run at the speed of light or fly to help him move in Bludhaven if they wanted him too. That had less to do with him being in NYC, and more to do with Tomasi wanting to play up Nightwing as someone with connections. NYC really isn't that happening of a city in the DCU. Especially these days. Throw Ric in NYC, shit plays out the same. They pulled the whole Nightwing is import to Bludhaven out there ass to begin with even, as he was new to Bludhaven just previously. So not even the lame Nightwings is something they couldn't do. They can just repeat the same lie to readers. Do you know what else was in NYC, Abnett's Titans. And that was the epitome of boring, generic, formulaic crap. So im sorry, im just not seeing it here guys.

----------


## Badou

The JSA was just an example. That scene felt like they helped him move in because they were welcoming him to the city. Things like that are more available to use if there is an opportunity for it. You know what heroes welcomed Dick to Bludhaven? No one because it doesn't have anyone besides Dick there.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

A Jason Todd tentacle monster welcomed him to NYC. Dick was there for almost 2 years before Tomasi took over.

----------


## Pohzee

Jason welcomed Dick back to New York. Dick spent his prime in New York

----------


## Zaresh

I doubt Brothers in Blood is still in continuity, now seriously. I mean, come on.

----------


## dropkickjake

> A Jason Todd tentacle monster welcomed him to NYC. Dick was there for almost 2 years before Tomasi took over.


/thread 

But seriously. There was enough bad story telling in NYC that we should all agree that moving Dick there isn't going to fix anything at all. The history that people are saying Dick has in  the city isn't in continuity anymore. Does the JSA even exist anymore? What exactly will Williamsburg or Manhattan actually give to the character?

If we want Dick to show his connections, move him somewhere like Metropolis. If we want him to be a globetrotting hero, let him hang his boots up in Gotham somewhere (Amusement Mile comes to mind).  Either of these locations would do a better job of "showing his connections."

-----

Come to think of it, if Dick were to really do what Seeley wanted for Nightwing and become Batman's global strike team of one, you know what location might actually make the best home for him? *Wayne freaking Manor.* Hear me out... Who are Dick's most meaningful relationships? _Damian. Bruce. Alfred._  Where do they live? _The Manor._ "But wait, what about Dick being his own man?" Dick doesn't even worry about stuff in Gotham. Bruce and Babs and Damian and literally whoever else have it covered. I honestly think he would gain more from moving back home than he would lose. *AANNNND* that could be an interesting avenue to tell a familiar and relatable millennial story: the awkward tension of living at home as a young adult.

----------


## Pohzee

I don't want Dick stuck in any city. But if he needs a central location to operate out of, it should be Titan's Tower, not the Batcave. Blüdhaven is disqualified because by nature it is a resource sink for Dick.

----------


## Pohzee

I think your analogy of a millennial living at home is accurate. But that story doesn't end with them living with their parents for the rest of their life. It's a temporary phase that could have story potential, but it's not a sustainable long term status quo.

And in the vein of analogies, the total and complete failure of Blüdhaven is a pretty good one too. Dick grew up surrounded by superheroes with stable "jobs" rooted in one city. But the nature of the work would have changed. And so in that vein, globetrotting could be more in the vein of the gig economy or maybe consultant work.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I think your analogy of a millennial living at home is accurate. But that story doesn't end with them living with their parents for the rest of their life. It's a temporary phase that could have story potential, but it's not a sustainable long term status quo.
> 
> And in the vein of analogies, the total and complete failure of Blüdhaven is a pretty good one too. Dick grew up surrounded by superheroes with stable "jobs" rooted in one city. But the nature of the work would have changed. And so in that vein, globetrotting could be more in the vein of the gig economy or maybe consultant work.


True! I definitely didn't want to stay at my parents place forever when I moved back home, and I got outta there in quick order. I could see Dick moving with the idea of it being temporary but his time there stretching out. In universe Dick is only like what, 25 at most? His relationship with Damian is important to him. He'd be traveling all over the world on these high profile missions, so it wouldn't be like he was trapped there all the time. If i was writing, I'd probably angle for it to be roughly a year (or maybe two) worth of publication with him at the manor, gradually and naturally taking over as the leader of Batman Inc. Then, as his organization of the operation grows, it would naturally need its own headquarters outside of the batcave. (Maybe move him over to the set up in the city he had when he was batman?) Either way, I think there is something to be said for embracing his ties to Batman instead of running from them.

----------


## Schumiac

Yeah, his ties to Batman isn't really a problem and actually can be used to his advantage. His "family" and his connections to them matter. One of the biggest problems with the crap they are writing right now is how disconnected he is with even his own family... 

The problem when he is written in association with Batman is them making him second-tier and just a sidekick to Batman. But really that is a writing problem. A good writer should be able to play off the family angle and the father/son dynamic and the close relationship he has with Bruce without making Dick appear inferior or petulant or as Batman's perfect soldier etc etc etc. How Bruce views and treats him is an important indicator of how DC and us as readers are supposed to view him IMO.

----------


## dietrich

roy-plays-dirty-but-donna-plays-dirtier

https://doc-squash.tumblr.com

----------


## dietrich

It was nice seeing nightwing in Batman universe

----------


## dietrich

How Damian likes to start the day whenever nightwing stays over at the Manor featuring Dick Grayson









https://doc-squash.tumblr.com

----------


## dietrich

Not a fan of Dick operating out of the Titans Tower. He's not Damian or Crush or any of those teen heroes. he's an independent hero so I'd like to see him with his own base and city to protect.

Don't mind if that's mixed in with globe trotting [prefer it actually]. I like Bludhaven cos I like Dick having his own city that's his responsibility.

Gotham is fine but don't like that as much since that's shared by soooo many heroes.

I liked the Prince Of Gotham idea that was planed by Higgins I believe before Grayson happened. Sounded really interesting. I was really looking forward to that

----------


## Jackalope89

> Not a fan of Dick operating out of the Titans Tower. He's not Damian or Crush or any of those teen heroes. he's an independent hero so I'd like to see him with his own base and city to protect.
> 
> Don't mind if that's mixed in with globe trotting [prefer it actually]. I like Bludhaven cos I like Dick having his own city that's his responsibility.
> 
> Gotham is fine but don't like that as much since that's shared by soooo many heroes.
> 
> I liked the Prince Of Gotham idea that was planed by Higgins I believe before Grayson happened. Sounded really interesting. I was really looking forward to that


I'd prefer Titans Tower, as it serves as a center for younger heroes and Dick being the most well known of the group, serves not only as a mentor, but the face of the group as well. It also gives him plenty of characters to bounce off of, both hero and villain alike. Not to mention, he doesn't feel so cut off from the rest of the world.

----------


## Godlike13

If Titans is its own independent team, and isn’t a demeaning shit show, I guess I could live with it. But I hate the idea of Dick or his generation as the teachers for younger heroes or “the next generation”. He’s not a camp counselor or a regulated prop for new guys.

----------


## dropkickjake

> If Titans is its own independent team, and isn’t a demeaning shit show, I guess I could live with it. But I hate the idea of Dick or his generation as the teachers for younger heroes or “the next generation”. He’s not a camp counselor or a regulated prop for new guys.


Honestly though, something akin to a camp counselor would be funny. As long as he also does his own thing in his own book. Stationed at Titans tower and big brothering pretty much everyone from Tim's generation and younger would be alright with me.

Still really enjoying the idea of Dick moving back to the manor again for a bit. Having Babs (or other love interest) over and getting interrupted by Damian or Bruce or Alfred. Those little scenes would crack me up.

----------


## Godlike13

Not appose to the manor either cause I think Dick is often portrayed as too old, so anything with him that tries to be contemporary with today I’m game for. Though not sure the lifespan on it.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, I'm currently enjoying a little head cannon pitch that starts with him moving into the manor as like a 23-25ish year old feel and then gradually moving him into running Batman Inc (maybe with a name change) out of either Wayne Tower/Bat Bunker or Haly's Casino in Amusement Mile.

----------


## dietrich

> I'd prefer Titans Tower, as it serves as a center for younger heroes and Dick being the most well known of the group, serves not only as a mentor, but the face of the group as well. It also gives him plenty of characters to bounce off of, both hero and villain alike. Not to mention, he doesn't feel so cut off from the rest of the world.


Having his own city and base doesn't have to cut him off from the rest of the DCU, he can mentor and have regulars and guests stars he can bounce off of in Bludhaven especially if they add the globe trotting idea to the mix. Heck he can have younger heroes, helpers [the skull Girls] to cover his city when he needs to be away or have him call in other batfamily to cover when he's away. added bonus of improves the piss poor sense of family we currently have.

Being responsible for a city isn't just about location it's about levels [ranking/tier] and maturity as a hero. 

Not every solo hero has a city they are responsible for.
not every solo hero is capable has what it takes to be bear such a burden. 
Not every solo hero is strong enough [mentally] or is willing to take on such a task especially when the city doesn't champion them

It says a lot about the few heroes in that category. It should also mean that he can't be at the Batman's beck and call [less available] which makes him different from the rest of the family. It should but the Bat office and DC have no sense.

Having a city shouldn't limit he's connections or world. All it takes is creativity and a writer who gets it.

I want Nightwing to have his own fleshed out and developed corner of the DCU with a stable cast and even a sidekick separate from the batman world just like other characters of his calibre have. He might not be in the JL but he's done more for Dc and makes more money than half the characters in the league.


Hope this has no errors was in a rush

----------


## yohyoi

I think it would be cool if Nightwing gets a spaceship. His name screams coolest spaceship in the universe.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I think it would be cool if Nightwing gets a spaceship. His name screams coolest spaceship in the universe.


For it. Pretty sure there was supposed to be a Dick and Kori in space series before the bat office got their hands back on him in the mid 90s. 

I've always been more a fan of the idea of Jason being an intergalactic bounty hunter.

----------


## Jackalope89

> For it. Pretty sure there was supposed to be a Dick and Kori in space series before the bat office got their hands back on him in the mid 90s. 
> 
> I've always been more a fan of the idea of Jason being an intergalactic bounty hunter.


He's not even a local bounty hunter.

----------


## nightbird

Altered version of how Dick got an idea to become Nightwing in this universe.

----------


## Godlike13

> He's not even a local bounty hunter.


Well he use to hunt bad guys for free.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Well he use to hunt bad guys for free.


That's literally what all the vigilantes do. Bounty hunters though, specifically target those with a bounty on their head though.

----------


## nightbird

Context to the video

E4FBBFED-34BA-4475-9F67-8FEB41BE0091.jpg
535B4237-AB9F-4EB1-BC65-4AB2AA99E276.jpg

----------


## nightbird

C0401D7C-F616-40FF-A5C3-2A956481FE1A.jpg

12065269-3013-4086-B971-BE78620C305A.jpg

----------


## dropkickjake

> He's not even a local bounty hunter.





> That's literally what all the vigilantes do. Bounty hunters though, specifically target those with a bounty on their head though.


I mean yeah. Just because he isn't one now doesn't (on its own) negate the potential of it fitting the character and being a cool direction/story. Jason's look from the early n52 would fit the scifi aesthetic like a charm. His gray morality and willingness to use guns give us a character that I could see being selective about when bounties he took. I couldn't see him as an indiscriminate Boba Fett type. He'd need to be the type that chooses his targets carefully, going after outlaws who have caused harm to kids, run drugs into areas that have ruined communities, stuff like that. Functionally he'd be a bit like a federal marshal, but with autonomy to choose his own cases (And get paid for it).

And I'm not sure its fair to boil down waht Godlike is saying to "what all vigilantes do." The way that Jason used to hunt down criminals was fairly different than how, say, Bruce had gone about it.




> Well he use to hunt bad guys for free.


This was basically my thought, yeah!

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think it would be cool if Nightwing gets a spaceship. His name screams the coolest spaceship in the universe.


Well, at least this is new. I checked out when I saw this thread's discussing Bludhaven or not again.

----------


## Badou

> Altered version of how Dick got an idea to become Nightwing in this universe.


Not surprised they had to change the Nightwing name origin, but still disappointed. The change and how they went about it feels a bit unnecessary.

----------


## Godlike13

At least they are giving it an origin. That being said this whole prison situation Dick finds himself in is over dramatic nonsense. I like the show quite bit, but this whole prison thing is silly.

----------


## Schumiac

I am actually fine with the show's Nightwing origin. Works for the show and the character's arc within the show. But the prison stuff is stupid. Dick thought going to prison and possibly (hopefully? for he seems to kind of want it) getting killed there is the way to make up for Jericho? WTH? If the prison stint is going to make him realize his thing is to help people and be a hero (even if making mistakes at times) and go back to that with a new attitude (where he is aware of his self-worth) and name, I am fine with that.

But the prison story is otherwise problematic.. For example, is he or is he not sentenced to 7 years? the opening scene made it look like he is sentenced already but when the guard was checkign his file it said "awaiting trial" so looks like he didn't actually get sentenced yet? Just how fast was that "trial" if he is already sentenced? I am guessing he made a deal with the prosecutor pleading guilty and accepting 7 years but the actual sentencing hasn't happened yet?? Also how is it NOT making the headlines that Bruce Wayne's adopted son who is a Detective got himself a 7 years sentence for assaulting a federal officer? If we are to assume Bruce silences those reports, he should be making an appearence soon enough to see just what the hell is up with Dick, no?

Anyway, guess the finale episode will be called "Nightwing" with Dick as Nightwing for the last scene of it or something. And we will have to wait an entire year to see our boy as Nightwing... *sigh*

----------


## Badou

They have Superboy running around. Not like it would be that difficult to come up with some Superman connection for the Nightwing name. The Superman connection is one of the things I like most about the Nightwing origin. Throwing it all away for some name he got while in prison feels so unnecessary. Some of the decisions they have made with this show are baffling to me. 

But I haven't been that fond of the Titans show overall. The first season kind of lost me and I haven't really been able to get into the second season that well, but I was interested in seeing how they would introduce him as Nightwing as it will be the first ever live action appearance of it. It just sucks it is some original nonsense that kills my interest a bit more. Was just a big let down. I really like the actor they have playing Dick and there are a few moment here and there where it feels like he could be so good in the role, but the writing around his character has been kind of poor overall I think.

----------


## Ascended

> I think it would be cool if Nightwing gets a spaceship. His name screams coolest spaceship in the universe.


Sold. I'm for anything that gets Dick away from the same territory as Bruce. Anything that isn't being a street level vigilante fighting mobs, gangs, psychos, and low-level superhumans. 

I'll take Bat-lite over being a homeless cab driver, but Dick has potential as a solo IP that he'll never reach as long as Bruce still has him tied down.

----------


## WonderNight

> Sold. I'm for anything that gets Dick away from the same territory as Bruce. Anything that isn't being a street level vigilante fighting mobs, gangs, psychos, and low-level superhumans. 
> 
> I'll take Bat-lite over being a homeless cab driver, but Dick has potential as a solo IP that he'll never reach as long as Bruce still has him tied down.


hallelujah!!! Someone sees it. Nightwing was created to be titan not a bat.

----------


## gregpersons

> I am actually fine with the show's Nightwing origin. Works for the show and the character's arc within the show. But the prison stuff is stupid. Dick thought going to prison and possibly (hopefully? for he seems to kind of want it) getting killed there is the way to make up for Jericho? WTH? If the prison stint is going to make him realize his thing is to help people and be a hero (even if making mistakes at times) and go back to that with a new attitude (where he is aware of his self-worth) and name, I am fine with that.
> 
> But the prison story is otherwise problematic.. For example, is he or is he not sentenced to 7 years? the opening scene made it look like he is sentenced already but when the guard was checkign his file it said "awaiting trial" so looks like he didn't actually get sentenced yet? Just how fast was that "trial" if he is already sentenced? I am guessing he made a deal with the prosecutor pleading guilty and accepting 7 years but the actual sentencing hasn't happened yet?? Also how is it NOT making the headlines that Bruce Wayne's adopted son who is a Detective got himself a 7 years sentence for assaulting a federal officer? If we are to assume Bruce silences those reports, he should be making an appearence soon enough to see just what the hell is up with Dick, no?
> 
> Anyway, guess the finale episode will be called "Nightwing" with Dick as Nightwing for the last scene of it or something. And we will have to wait an entire year to see our boy as Nightwing... *sigh*


Agree with all of this, including — sadly — your prediction.

The show's producers seriously undervalue much the audience, I'm speaking for myself, just wants to see a floppy haired man in black costume with a blue V-bird on it do some flips and kicks while making puns. 

The withholding of this relatively basic shot sequence for multiple seasons is ... frustrating!

----------


## Drako

> I am actually fine with the show's Nightwing origin. Works for the show and the character's arc within the show. But the prison stuff is stupid. Dick thought going to prison and possibly (hopefully? for he seems to kind of want it) getting killed there is the way to make up for Jericho? WTH? If the prison stint is going to make him realize his thing is to help people and be a hero (even if making mistakes at times) and go back to that with a new attitude (where he is aware of his self-worth) and name, I am fine with that.
> 
> But the prison story is otherwise problematic.. For example, is he or is he not sentenced to 7 years? the opening scene made it look like he is sentenced already but when the guard was checkign his file it said "awaiting trial" so looks like he didn't actually get sentenced yet? Just how fast was that "trial" if he is already sentenced? I am guessing he made a deal with the prosecutor pleading guilty and accepting 7 years but the actual sentencing hasn't happened yet?? Also how is it NOT making the headlines that Bruce Wayne's adopted son who is a Detective got himself a 7 years sentence for assaulting a federal officer? If we are to assume Bruce silences those reports, he should be making an appearence soon enough to see just what the hell is up with Dick, no?
> 
> Anyway, guess the finale episode will be called "Nightwing" with Dick as Nightwing for the last scene of it or something. And we will have to wait an entire year to see our boy as Nightwing... *sigh*


They already filmed a bunch of scenes with him in costume.

----------


## gregpersons

> They have Superboy running around. Not like it would be that difficult to come up with some Superman connection for the Nightwing name. The Superman connection is one of the things I like most about the Nightwing origin. Throwing it all away for some name he got while in prison feels so unnecessary. Some of the decisions they have made with this show are baffling to me. 
> 
> But I haven't been that fond of the Titans show overall. The first season kind of lost me and I haven't really been able to get into the second season that well, but I was interested in seeing how they would introduce him as Nightwing as it will be the first ever live action appearance of it. It just sucks it is some original nonsense that kills my interest a bit more. Was just a big let down. I really like the actor they have playing Dick and there are a few moment here and there where it feels like he could be so good in the role, but the writing around his character has been kind of poor overall I think.


I agree with all of this, although I feel a bit more forgiving toward the show but I think that's because I didn't start watching until a few weeks ago and quickly binged/fast-forwarded through a lot of season 1. The show is, generally, not great — even just as a trashy "sexy dark teens are mysterious and brooding" show, Titans isn't really on par with Riverdale in playing the characters against each other — and as a superhero show it's on par with the CW Berlanti stuff, I guess, with different quirks but a lot of the same flaws. On the other hand, most of the fights have been choreographed well and feel like Daredevil on Netflix did, and it is just fun to see the Titans done in live-action as a soapy teen superhero drama... just that it has Robin/Nightwing is enough to get me interested more than Umbrella Academy or Doom Patrol. 

I've liked some of the choices — mostly with Raven, but some aspects of Dick too — but it's extremely (well not really but) frustrating and annoying that they changed the Nightwing name origin away from Superman. 

Especially on this show, where he's spent so much time brooding about Batman — "fuck Batman" was in the trailer, ffs — we don't even need to see Superman in the same way we havent seen Batman or Wonder Woman, don't even need Clark — but the connection to Superman reminds Dick of his belief in hope and heroics as a hopeful act, rather than a vengeful act.

Dick Grayson is trained by Batman, and inspired by Superman — it's perfect, and tying this aspect to the show's Superboy would create an interesting friendship with Conner who is of course Superman + Lex Luthor. 

So it's an annoying choice in a general way, and even more annoying because of how much the Superman connection makes sense in the context of this show and this season -- it's not even low hanging fruit, it was a necessary ingredient that they tossed out in favor of a less-than-lateral move, dramatically.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Not surprised they had to change the Nightwing name origin, but still disappointed. The change and how they went about it feels a bit unnecessary.


Well Superman is an illegal and undocumented alien

----------


## L.H.

Hi, guys, just a quick question: can you suggest me some good fanfictions about Dick? I need to read something new.

----------


## nightbird

I’m probably the one of few, who don’t care about Superman’s involvement with name and thinks it’s kinda overrated and fandom’s way to hold on this “connection to vast DCU world” thing. I’m okay with whatever twist they make to how Dick got idea to become Nightwing as long as name has that “hope” meaning to Dick himself and to others.

----------


## Agent Z

I never expected the Superman connection to be used in this show and even other adaptations that do have Superman and Dick in the same universe don't use it. Why would this show be any different?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I never expected the Superman connection to be used in this show and even other adaptations that do have Superman and Dick in the same universe don't use it. Why would this show be any different?


That’s becuase every animated series had nightwing come out of nowhere no origin on the name just their

----------


## Agent Z

> That’s becuase every animated series had nightwing come out of nowhere no origin on the name just their


Well this show at least gave an origin for the Nightwing name.

----------


## Badou

> I never expected the Superman connection to be used in this show and even other adaptations that do have Superman and Dick in the same universe don't use it. Why would this show be any different?


No other show has even addressed it before. The comics since the New 52 haven't even addressed how he became Nightwing so it isn't even limited to other media adaptations. I enjoy the Superman connection because it goes back to an era where Batman, Robin and Superman were all very close. The original World's Finest. 

I think the prison origin here is dumb. Although I don't know if it is dumber than when Seeley tried to tie the name to the Court of Owls in his Rebirth run and have that be where the name came from. I'm glad that went nowhere.

----------


## Ascended

> IÂ’m probably the one of few, who donÂ’t care about SupermanÂ’s involvement with name and thinks itÂ’s kinda overrated and fandomÂ’s way to hold on this Â“connection to vast DCU worldÂ” thing. IÂ’m okay with whatever twist they make to how Dick got idea to become Nightwing as long as name has that Â“hopeÂ” meaning to Dick himself and to others.


We probably do make a bigger deal out of it than it is, but I think a lot of people undervalue how much Dick's character was influenced and informed by elements outside of Bruce's franchise. The way we understand the character today is heavily influenced by all the stuff that happened outside of Gotham. If Dick hadn't left the Bat editorial office he'd be a very different character today. 

As for this prison Nightwing origin thing, I'm not watching the show but I'm not surprised they didn't use the real origin. And I'm not bothered by it. It's just an adaptation. I wish they had "done it right" and stuck with some variation of the original script, but as I understand it no relationship with Clark has really been established for this version of Dick, and the existence of Superman wasn't even confirmed until the end of season 1, right? It'd be weird and out of the blue to use the Krypton origin now. Seriously, was anyone expecting differently? DC has ignored this side of Dick Grayson's history for a couple decades now, the show that started off with "Fuck Batman" wasn't gonna be the show to make Nightwing's origin about a myth his space uncle told him.

Hell, look at the state of Superman these last twenty years. His origin gets changed constantly, and stuff about Krypton changes even more often. And the Titans franchise has ended feeling like the place characters go to die. I can't blame the Bat office for wanting to distance Dick from franchises that have struggled more than Batman. I don't think burying all that is the right direction but I get why they'd want to avoid the hassle.

----------


## marvelprince

> Not a fan of Dick operating out of the Titans Tower. He's not Damian or Crush or any of those teen heroes. he's an independent hero so I'd like to see him with his own base and city to protect.
> 
> Don't mind if that's mixed in with globe trotting [prefer it actually]. I like Bludhaven cos I like Dick having his own city that's his responsibility.
> 
> Gotham is fine but don't like that as much since that's shared by soooo many heroes.
> 
> I liked the Prince Of Gotham idea that was planed by Higgins I believe before Grayson happened. Sounded really interesting. I was really looking forward to that


I also REALLY wanted to see the Prince of Gotham stuff from Higgins. I thought it was a perfect and natural progression for the character thats so inherently more inspirational than Batman is.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I never expected the Superman connection to be used in this show and even other adaptations that do have Superman and Dick in the same universe don't use it. Why would this show be any different?


It'd be nice to change the trend and go back to the actual reason he uses the name. 

It strikes me as odd since Superboy is in the show, so clearly the interconnected universe has Kryptonians in it and it would be nice to see Dick's connection to Clark represented in other media.

EDIT: Though I guess Ascended made a great point that considering the states of all these franchises, it's unfortunately not that surprising.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Im probably the one of few, who dont care about Supermans involvement with name and thinks its kinda overrated and fandoms way to hold on this connection to vast DCU world thing. Im okay with whatever twist they make to how Dick got idea to become Nightwing as long as name has that hope meaning to Dick himself and to others.


I'm another of the few

----------


## Rac7d*

whoop whoop

----------


## Godlike13

Sweet  :Cool:

----------


## WonderNight

> whoop whoop


in black and blue I see, I wonder why :Wink:

----------


## Rac7d*

> in black and blue I see, I wonder why


The next season is supposed to be headlined by Starfire so it might change again 6 months from now
but more Dick grayson content is always good, been the only consistent positive thing in this thread

----------


## Godlike13

Anyone else find it funny that Titans is on its way to season 3, which they waste no time to renew, but the old comic people still refuse to try to put together a decent Titans comic in all the time the show has started.

----------


## Agent Z

It's probably for the best to give the comics Titans a break until they can come up with better stories.

----------


## Godlike13

Better stories aren't going to just magically appear as they do nothing.

----------


## Agent Z

> Better stories isn't going to just magically appear as they do nothing.


Neither will putting out a Titans book for the sake of it. Giving the book a rest until behind-the-scenes problems can be sorted out (it's obvious DC isn't quite done with this "Ric" arc just yet) might give them time to craft a better direction for the book.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans have had 1 series in the last 10 years. They are rested. Its not time they need, but work. Something those behind the comic division are clearly not interested in putting in. Which is odd to me when on the other had you have them renewing a season 3 before season 2 even ends. All while the comic people continue to not even try anything with the brand or its main characters. The comic guys want it to be this dead brand, yet at the same time here DC is announcing season 3. 

And the fact that Ric has been running next to the show, despite being dog shit and reviled from the go, is another red flag is you ask me. I think Nightwing was around the 120th rank comic in October, and Jurgans oh so important Annual not even the top 150. Well done again Nightwing team.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Anyone else find it funny that Titans is on its way to season 3, which they waste no time to renew, but the old comic people still refuse to try to put together a decent Titans comic in all the time the show has started.


They can’t exist without a glass ceiling to protect the status of the JL

----------


## gregpersons

> They can’t exist without a glass ceiling to protect the status of the JL


It seems to me that Titans / Justice League should be the equivalent of X-Men / Avengers.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It seems to me that Titans / Justice League should be the equivalent of X-Men / Avengers.


The titans use to be dc’s answer to the X-men

----------


## Godlike13

Just try something. And just finding an old vet to go through the motions is not trying something.

----------


## Agent Z

> The Titans have had 1 series in the last 10 years. They are rested. Its not time they need, but work. Something those behind the comic division are clearly not interested in putting in. Which is odd to me when on the other had you have them renewing a season 3 before season 2 even ends. All while the comic people continue to not even try anything with the brand or its main characters. The comic guys want it to be this dead brand, yet at the same time here DC is announcing season 3. 
> 
> And the fact that Ric has been running next to the show, despite being dog shit and reviled from the go, is another red flag is you ask me. I think Nightwing was around the 120th rank comic in October, and Jurgans oh so important Annual not even the top 150. Well done again Nightwing team.


Look at the position most of them are in right now. Dick has amnesia, Donna is a pawn of the Batman Who Laughs, Wally is a villain who now has to redeem himself, Roy is dead, Lilith, Garth, Malcolm, Karen, Beast Boy and  Starfire are in limbo. Right now the one in the best position is Cyborg. If this is what is being done in their individual stories what do you think putting them back together will do. Yes the Titans book needs work but it also needs people behind the scenes to understand what they've been doing wrong for the past few decades and it's clear they haven't realized that yet. And until they do we're better off without a Titans book. At least they're seeing some use in adaptations so it isn't like the brand is dead.

----------


## Pohzee

> Look at the position most of them are in right now. Dick has amnesia, Donna is a pawn of the Batman Who Laughs, Wally is a villain who now has to redeem himself, Roy is dead, Lilith, Garth, Malcolm, Karen, Beast Boy and  Starfire are in limbo. Right now the one in the best position is Cyborg. If this is what is being done in their individual stories what do you think putting them back together will do. Yes the Titans book needs work but it also needs people behind the scenes to understand what they've been doing wrong for the past few decades and it's clear they haven't realized that yet. And until they do we're better off without a Titans book. At least they're seeing some use in adaptations so it isn't like the brand is dead.


That all sounds like grounds for a relaunch to me.

----------


## Badou

They have a Teen Titans and a Young Justice book at the moment. So they are still putting "legacy" books in their lineup of titles. Plus all the Justice League books and the Legion book too. I don't really see what adding a Titans book to their line of ongoings really does that wouldn't cause it to be like the Titans series we just had. Plus all the 5G stuff coming which will spread out legacy characters even more across titles. The Titans hasn't been a well written franchise since well before I even joined the forum. I can't even remember the last time Dick was written well in it too. I haven't been a fan of the Titans franchise for a long time, though I get fans of it wanting a series especially because of the TV show airing at the moment, but I just don't really see what another Titans book really adds for DC right now other than just being a containment book for characters DC doesn't know what to do with. Saying stuff like how it should just be a "cooler/younger Justice League" is never going to happen. The property will never be looked at like that.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That all sounds like grounds for a relaunch to me.


Question is; will a relaunch happen before a reboot does?

----------


## Godlike13

> Look at the position most of them are in right now. Dick has amnesia, Donna is a pawn of the Batman Who Laughs, Wally is a villain who now has to redeem himself, Roy is dead, Lilith, Garth, Malcolm, Karen, Beast Boy and  Starfire are in limbo. Right now the one in the best position is Cyborg. If this is what is being done in their individual stories what do you think putting them back together will do. Yes the Titans book needs work but it also needs people behind the scenes to understand what they've been doing wrong for the past few decades and it's clear they haven't realized that yet. And until they do we're better off without a Titans book. At least they're seeing some use in adaptations so it isn't like the brand is dead.


I know they are all buried in shit right now, my confusion is why they are all buried in shit right now. They put them in those positions, and seemingly just in time for the show. The comic division have purposely buried the brand and those characters as if they are dead properties, creating a sentiment where they have people thinking its better that they do nothing, instead of challenging that they do better. All while the same time the same company is creating content that they aren't hesitating to renew. Its almost as if the comic people have rebelled at the very idea of others doing something with the brand and characters, and so then made it a point on their side to go on a campaign to sabotage and put the brand, and the characters involved, in terrible positions. Im certainly not asking for another Abnett's Titans, but Jesus here they are announcing season 3 and yet for the entirety of its run the comic division couldn't be bother to get off there old man asses and try anything with the brand at all. Ric Grayson is pretty much all the comic people have to show with any of these characters these past 2 years. How laughable is that. Even within the comic market its not like Titans seems like a hard brand to sell. I don't get this disconnect within DC.

----------


## gregpersons

> The titans use to be dc’s answer to the X-men


Wolfman's New Teen Titans and Claremont's X-Men definitely could swap characters/settings/brands and still largely work the same. It's better when the Titans have a similarly personal mission statement and aren't just Justice League Junior. 

I think they should put the core Titans together at the forefront — with Dick/Nightwing as a combination Cyclops/young Xavier — and a deep bench of everyone else from the newer teams. Nightwing gives the Titans its heart, and a clearer mission statement. Titans are primarily about rescuing missing people, especially kids... this has more power if the team extends out from the origin of the first sidekick.

Of course one problem is that Titans never really had a Wolverine badass – Cyborg would be closest, but he's been acquired by the Justice League so he's not a good candidate anymore — maybe Damian

----------


## Pohzee

If the NTT was a response to Claremont's X-Men, what we need now is a response to Hickman. Or we could just wait for Hickman.

----------


## Roliver Queen

> Look at the position most of them are in right now. Dick has amnesia, Donna is a pawn of the Batman Who Laughs, Wally is a villain who now has to redeem himself, Roy is dead, Lilith, Garth, Malcolm, Karen, Beast Boy and  Starfire are in limbo. Right now the one in the best position is Cyborg. If this is what is being done in their individual stories what do you think putting them back together will do. Yes the Titans book needs work but it also needs people behind the scenes to understand what they've been doing wrong for the past few decades and it's clear they haven't realized that yet. And until they do we're better off without a Titans book. At least they're seeing some use in adaptations so it isn't like the brand is dead.


Starfire is part of JL Odyssey as well. Including Ric, that's 5 members who are pretty involved in the greater happenings of the current DC Universe. If you count Miss Martian, that's 6 because she IS used in the Justice League Comics even if it is brief. Its better to let DC get the year of the villain and whatever upcoming Crisis out the way. Hopefully that wipes the slate clean and puts the characters (especially Nightwing) in a position to be in a team book again. Imagine the can of worms, continuity wise that'll be open if a new Titans book was to come out now. Much of the characters are scattered across the universe or are in limbo and we have no clue when Nightwing will be restored. I wouldn't be surprised if Tynion has to wait till Lobdell wraps up this Talon Story line before he can begin the process of giving Dick back his memories in Batman.

----------


## Agent Z

I imagine Nightwing will be back either during or after Titans season 3.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Look at the position most of them are in right now. Dick has amnesia, Donna is a pawn of the Batman Who Laughs, Wally is a villain who now has to redeem himself, Roy is dead, Lilith, Garth, Malcolm, Karen, Beast Boy and  Starfire are in limbo. Right now the one in the best position is Cyborg. If this is what is being done in their individual stories what do you think putting them back together will do. Yes the Titans book needs work but it also needs people behind the scenes to understand what they've been doing wrong for the past few decades and it's clear they haven't realized that yet. And until they do we're better off without a Titans book. At least they're seeing some use in adaptations so it isn't like the brand is dead.


Isn’t starfire in the justice league

----------


## Rac7d*

> I imagine Nightwing will be back either during or after Titans season 3.



Next spring ?    But I am hoping hisnlive action presence in the mainstream will help secure himPreventing DC from pulling bs like this again, however it seems to me they are giving him no time to recover since they will need a new Batman soon

----------


## Jackalope89

> Isn’t starfire in the justice league


Kind of? Justice League Odyssey is kind of its own thing though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Kind of? Justice League Odyssey is kind of its own thing though.


So is cyborg out of the justice league

----------


## Jackalope89

> So is cyborg out of the justice league


He never quit, nor was he booted out (to my knowledge). So, I think he's still a member.

----------


## Agent Z

> Starfire is part of JL Odyssey as well.






> Isn’t starfire in the justice league



You're right. My mistake.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He never quit, nor was he booted out (to my knowledge). So, I think he's still a member.


and starfire is a member as well then, so it be wrong to take her back to titans

----------


## Nine Crocodile

> and starfire is a member as well then, so it be wrong to take her back to titans


Starfire and Cyborg no longer seem to be involved with the JLO, but I imagine they are likely JL members for Doom War at least.

On Topic: Anybody read Batman Universe #5? Is it worth getting?

----------


## gregpersons

> Starfire and Cyborg no longer seem to be involved with the JLO, but I imagine they are likely JL members for Doom War at least.
> 
> On Topic: Anybody read Batman Universe #5? Is it worth getting?


Batman Universe is very fun, definitely worth getting.

----------


## Ascended

> He never quit, nor was he booted out (to my knowledge). So, I think he's still a member.


As far as I know, Vic left earth without telling anyone. It hasn't been talked about since, so everyone must just be assuming that he's doing solo stuff. I mean, that sort of thing isn't unusual; Superman will spend months tracking a lost kid in space, Batman will go deep undercover, Flash will get lost in time......League members spend a lot of time MIA and no one gets worked up about it.

----------


## CPSparkles

Looks like Nightwing is going to be in Deathstroke #50

----------


## Valentonis

I miss adult Raven :Frown:

----------


## Godlike13

I miss dem legs...

----------


## Badou

Weird seeing Dick in his Rebirth costume when everyone else is in their retro look. I guess those are the Titans from alt-Deathstroke's world?

----------


## L.H.

I think so, 'cause in the other panels alt-Deathstroke is killing Batman, together with Damian and Wonder Woman, and in #49 he said something about Raven messing with his mind. 
Weird, but still better than discowing costume.

----------


## Holy Nightwing Fan

Really?! Great news! Because I'm hoping that this bad Ric era just ends. It's depressing. I just expect that at least his career as a Talon is a cool one and then he is back to his status quo together with the batfamily

----------


## seismic-2

Robin in today's funny paper...

----------


## CPSparkles

The cover art is guaranteed to raise eyebrows -- not that any Catwoman fan would hold seducing Nightwing against her (pun absolutely intended). But fans need not worry about Crimes of Passion injecting bombshells relationships or romantic entanglements into the ongoing DC continuity. Lucky for Batman, these books are purely to get the romantic and sentimental juices flowing. Fans can check out the official solicitations details and plot synopsis below:

DC's CRIMES OF PASSION #1
Written by: James Tynion IV, Steve Orlando, Sina Grace, Jay Baruchel, Stephanie Phillips, and More
Art by: Greg Smallwood, Riley Rossmo, Andi Tong, Mike Norton, Anthony Spay, and More
Cover by: Yasmine Putri
Passion. Betrayal. Murder. When you’re a private investigator, these are things you experience daily. But when you add capes to the mix—like Batman, Catwoman and Harley Quinn? Things get even messier. The name’s Slam Bradley and I’m telling you that this year’s Valentine’s Day special has more intrigue than you can shake a stick at. Ten tales of love—the kind of love that can push people over the edge. Don’t miss it...or I’ll make you pay.


DC's Crimes of Passion will arrive at your local comic book shop on February 5th, 2020. The 80-page prestige one-shot will retail for #9.99 USD.

----------


## shadow6743

> The cover art is guaranteed to raise eyebrows -- not that any Catwoman fan would hold seducing Nightwing against her (pun absolutely intended). But fans need not worry about Crimes of Passion injecting bombshells relationships or romantic entanglements into the ongoing DC continuity. Lucky for Batman, these books are purely to get the romantic and sentimental juices flowing. Fans can check out the official solicitations details and plot synopsis below:
> 
> DC's CRIMES OF PASSION #1
> Written by: James Tynion IV, Steve Orlando, Sina Grace, Jay Baruchel, Stephanie Phillips, and More
> Art by: Greg Smallwood, Riley Rossmo, Andi Tong, Mike Norton, Anthony Spay, and More
> Cover by: Yasmine Putri
> Passion. Betrayal. Murder. When youre a private investigator, these are things you experience daily. But when you add capes to the mixlike Batman, Catwoman and Harley Quinn? Things get even messier. The names Slam Bradley and Im telling you that this years Valentines Day special has more intrigue than you can shake a stick at. Ten tales of lovethe kind of love that can push people over the edge. Dont miss it...or Ill make you pay.
> 
> 
> ...


I am a simple woman I see Nightwing I buy. Although, Catwoman looking really great on the cover also helps.

----------


## CPSparkles

NIGHTWING #69
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
Following the events of October’s Night-wing Annual #2, Ric Grayson is getting closer to the truth about what happened to him. Talon has been vanquished, but his interference has put Ric on the trail of other members of the Court of Owls. Have they been taking advantage of his injured state from the beginning? And what does that mean for the life he thought he lost?
ON SALE 02.19.20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | DC
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

----------


## Katana500

I wonder if it won't be until April or May before the Ric story arc ends.

----------


## shadow6743

It looks like Jurgens is gearing up to finally end the Ric storyline. Great its been going on far to long. Although, I have to say Jurgens may be known for his Superman work but I have been really liking his work on Nightwing and his writing of the Batman Family. Both in this and Batman Beyond.

----------


## cc008

Just getting through the Forever Evil paperback now.. should be starting the Grayson series shortly. When does the Ric stuff start? Not sure I want to have those in TPB

----------


## Katana500

> It looks like Jurgens is gearing up to finally end the Ric storyline. Great its been going on far to long. Although, I have to say Jurgens may be known for his Superman work but I have been really liking his work on Nightwing and his writing of the Batman Family. Both in this and Batman Beyond.


It defo feels like their is only 1 or 2 issues to go but that still takes us into May before Dick returns.

I'll give the Court of Owls angle a shot though  :Smile:

----------


## Arsenal

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if they are saving Dicks full return as Dick until #75.




> Just getting through the Forever Evil paperback now.. should be starting the Grayson series shortly. When does the Ric stuff start? Not sure I want to have those in TPB


Starts at Nightwing (2016) #50. You got quite a ways to go before you need to worry about Ric.

----------


## cc008

> Starts at Nightwing (2016) #50. You got quite a ways to go before you need to worry about Ric.


Perfect, thank you  :Smile:

----------


## L.H.

Tynion said that he wanted to get Dick back in the Batman title, so I guess we have to wait the end of his first story arc.
Also, in february we are getting The Lost Carnival. Am I wrong, or this is the first Dick's graphic novel?

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is never gonna end as long as it gives the played out old farts something to do. It’s gonna last longer then Grayson, even though the damn annual this Nightwing team is so proud of couldn’t even crack the top 150. Take the damn hint already and just end the book. No one is going to come back to this crap. The book and character needs a full reset, and even then the character will be lucky to ever see 50k again after this train wreck. 
The numbers are in the trash, word of mouth is trash, fan sentiment and moral is in the trash. This has been a embarrassing display of bad work, and the only thing worse about it is that they have let this blatant display of bad work go on and on like they have.

----------


## Badou

They might drag out the story until Batman 100 in the Summer when DC will probably do some relaunch or something. Maybe waiting for that 5G rebrand. Since it feels like they are dragging out this Owls story even more. They clearly don't want to involve Dick in anything going on at DC and are fine with just containing him to his awful Nightwing book for as long as they need. 

It is hilarious that Wally's entire Heroes in Crisis story and his Flash Forward story happened and completed all while this Ric story has been going on. Wally had the story that vilified and then I guess tried to redeem him all inbetween this Ric story. What a joke.

----------


## Godlike13

Man, Donna was cold in the last Titans ep. Ultimately right, but still ice cold.

----------


## Robanker

Please, just let it end. I just want to read new Dick Grayson stories. I want to spend my hard-earned money on a proper Nightwing book, DC. I don't know why you hate my money so. :/

----------


## Rac7d*

> Man, Donna was cold in the last Titans ep. Ultimately right, but still ice cold.


She not right, she is out of character, they haven’t let her do anything wonder she has been pissy since episode 8

----------


## Agent Z

> She not right, she is out of character, they havent let her do anything wonder she has been pissy since episode 8


I feel like fans use "out of character" very liberally at times. Donna wasn't wrong when she said Dick was martyring himself and the episode pointed out this was a problem.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I feel like fans use "out of character" very liberally at times. Donna wasn't wrong when she said Dick was martyring himself and the episode pointed out this was a problem.


She is wrong for not going to help him and wrong to leave him at the tower she always stands by him

I’ve been pretty Floored since she dawn and hank hanged up on Jason.  I think I hate liar reveal story lines

----------


## Agent Z

> She is wrong for not going to help him and wrong to leave him at the tower she always stands by him
> 
> I’ve been pretty Floored since she dawn and hank hanged up on Jason.  I think I hate liar reveal story lines


Donna said that Dick was in prison because he _wanted_ to be there. *spoilers:*
Hell, we saw that he had already escaped before Kory and Rachel even got to the prison.
*end of spoilers*. Donna wanted to find out what happened to Conner and Gar.

----------


## Godlike13

> She not right, she is out of character, they haven’t let her do anything wonder she has been pissy since episode 8


No, she called it. *spoilers:*
Rachel and Kory stormed the prison only for Dick to have already escape
*end of spoilers*. He wasn’t in trouble he was just punishing himself. She didn’t need to be so harsh about it though. 




> She is wrong for not going to help him and wrong to leave him at the tower she always stands by him
> 
> I’ve been pretty Floored since she dawn and hank hanged up on Jason.  I think I hate liar reveal story lines


Her being pissed about Jericho is dumb, cause she was all for it.

----------


## Schumiac

When your supposed best friend is doing something bad and wrong that is potentially harmful to them you don't just abandon them. Especially not when the girl who is possibly seeing the future tells you she has been seeing him being killed. Donna leaving Dick to waste himself away in prison in self-pity and shame & her not giving a damn about the possibility of him being killed/harmed just don't really work.  Her knowing he can take care of himself physically and get out if he wanted doesn't mean squad as the "problem" is the state of mind he is in that made him want to go into prison, a state of mind SHE contributed to. Well,  guess it works within this show as this Donna and Dick should not be called best friends or even friends at this point. 

When Bruce Wayne has the interfere to remind  you guys that you are family and divided you shall fall, you KNOW you have made a mess and done things terribly wrong. Of course Bruce's speech went to waste on Donna and Dawn because they are too busy being angry at Dick, as it is the way for them to wash their hands clean of the Jericho affair. Blame it all on Dick and pretend you were as much a victim in all this due to his lies, and was fooled. Disgusting. Bruce leaving Hank out was priceless. Hank is useless, especially if back to his addict ways and Bruce probably doesn't care about him one bit. Wish Dawn was left out too but guess Bruce thought "she is special to Dick, maybe she will get to him". Not buying Bruce allowing Jason and Rose to run amock in Gotham and not involving them in the Titans meeting. Maybe he figures Jason is Dick's problem to deal with once he gets out. Or maybe, because they are in Gotham he already has an eye on them and doesn't want them involved with Titans business right now, especially if he has suspicions about Rose.

I love Ghost!Bruce as tiring as Dick's self-hatred can be at times, because it is a great insight into how he thinks and feels. He DID need to grow up and get over his self-pity party and glad to see this is happening. I also hope, next time he sees Dawn and Donna (and Hank) he gives them a reality check too instead of letting them put all the blame on him about everything.
Absolutely LOVE the fact he figured out Jericho is alive. Dick is a detective and trained by Batman, he should be very aware of smallest of details around himself and able to connect dots and we see that he WAS and IS. He needed time to put it all in perspective and solve it, but his mind was working and taking notes of things like Jericho's mother saying "they", Slade acting weird and the message Jericho was trying to give him (so does Dick know sign language now? when he first met Jericho he didn't know but maybe learned it afterwards?). Also Love that he escaped himself AND left a note behind in case Titans came to rescue him. lol

----------


## Pohzee

Donna was absolutely in the right. You don't abandon friends, but Beast Boy and Superboy are larger priorities. They're both MIA and for an unknown reason. Dick is just sulking.

The ha-Bruce-inations are entertaining but make Dick seem schizophrenic if you think too much about it.

----------


## Schumiac

> Donna was absolutely in the right. You don't abandon friends, but Beast Boy and Superboy are larger priorities. They're both MIA and for an unknown reason. Dick is just sulking.


Except Raven has dreams of Dick dying so for all they know Dick IS in great and imminent danger & they know where he is so he is much easier to find and take care off. Going off on their own without proper backup and knowledge is what got Donna & Dick almost killed (and Jericho killed) the last time. They need to get back together as a team and then face the big-bad. That was what Bruce's speech was about.

Donna is just angry Dick went to prison instead of being there to answer her many phone callls when SHE needed his help. lol. Till now she has been trying to get Dick involved as knew this wasn't something she could do on her own and his help was needed, but now is angry again so back to "don't need this guy, leave him to his misery". And Dawn is Dawn.

----------


## Pohzee

They obviously shouldn't leave Dick, but it seems clear that BB should be a higher priority. Someone broke into the tower and kidnapped him.

At most, splitting up so that some can help Dick while others get Gar is the right thing to do there.

----------


## Schumiac

> They obviously shouldn't leave Dick, but it seems clear that BB should be a higher priority. Someone broke into the tower and kidnapped him.
> 
> At most, splitting up so that some can help Dick while others get Gar is the right thing to do there.



Donna and Dawn don't have our knowledge of things. They know Gar and Superboy are missing and something bad has happened, but they don't know where they are or how bad.

Till this happened Donna has been trying to get Dick to help as she knows with him along, their chances of finding the lost members and helping them out is much higher.

They also know Dick is in prison and as per Raven's warnings in great danger. 

So choices were : Go take an hour or two to save Dick and bring the team back and start looking for Gar and Superboy together OR split from the team and leave Dick be and try to find Gar & Superboy. 

It really didn't seem like a carefully thought strategic choice based on "priorities" but more of one taken based on anger at Dick with a "he wants to rot in prison, fine by me!" attitude, but we all read things differently I guess.

Anyway, between Kory's upset stomach and wonky powers some are now wondering if she is pregnant. One part of me would love to see Mar'i in this but a baby is really the last thing Titans need. I think she is just too stressed and not been taking good care of herself...

Btw, if Bruce knows Gar & Superboy are missing, JLA (at the very least Superman) must know. So guess they are all letting Titans (who are in total dismay and not even a team right now) handle this? Oh show...

----------


## Agent Z

> Donna and Dawn don't have our knowledge of things. They know Gar and Superboy are missing and something bad has happened, but they don't know where they are or how bad.
> 
> Till this happened Donna has been trying to get Dick to help as she knows with him along, their chances of finding the lost members and helping them out is much higher.
> 
> They also know Dick is in prison and as per Raven's warnings in great danger. 
> 
> So choices were : Go take an hour or two to save Dick and bring the team back and start looking for Gar and Superboy together OR split from the team and leave Dick be and try to find Gar & Superboy. 
> 
> It really didn't seem like a carefully thought strategic choice based on "priorities" but more of one taken based on anger at Dick with a "he wants to rot in prison, fine by me!" attitude, but we all read things differently I guess.
> ...


The episode established she'd been drinking a lot due to depression. She's clearly having a hangover in the arcade scene. As for the wonky powers, I'm guessing this has something to do with what she told Rachel earlier about how her powers were different as a baby.

----------


## Schumiac

> The episode established she'd been drinking a lot due to depression. She's clearly having a hangover in the arcade scene. As for the wonky powers, I'm guessing this has something to do with what she told Rachel earlier about how her powers were different as a baby.


Yeah, we even had the talkative psychiatrist to tell us she is grieving and not handling things well..

I think when she talked to Rachel she mentioned having difficulty controlling her powers when she was younger, right? Memory is a bit fuzzy on that.

----------


## nightbird

> Donna and Dawn don't have our knowledge of things. They know Gar and Superboy are missing and something bad has happened, but they don't know where they are or how bad.
> 
> Till this happened Donna has been trying to get Dick to help as she knows with him along, their chances of finding the lost members and helping them out is much higher.
> 
> They also know Dick is in prison and as per Raven's warnings in great danger. 
> 
> So choices were : Go take an hour or two to save Dick and bring the team back and start looking for Gar and Superboy together OR split from the team and leave Dick be and try to find Gar & Superboy. 
> 
> It really didn't seem like a carefully thought strategic choice based on "priorities" but more of one taken based on anger at Dick with a "he wants to rot in prison, fine by me!" attitude, but we all read things differently I guess.
> ...


Agree about Donna, Dawn and Hank. 

About JLA, I dunno, I think it’s easy to imagine, that Superman is busy with another matter. Just like in comics. They all busy due to the fact, that there is too many villains out there. Even Bruce didn’t show up until he saw Dick in prison.

----------


## nightbird

Also, can we talk about the fact, that in the show they addressed to Nightwing as bird of pray. lol

----------


## Godlike13

Donna’s point was that Dick didn’t need saving, he was there cause he wanted to be. So either they go there and he tells them to leave, cause he is choosing to be there, or they go there to get him out of a situation he doesn’t need help getting out of. Which is ultimately what happen. She was a total ice queen, and her being mad in the first place is rather hypocritical, but she called it. She knows Dick. What Raven needs to save him from wasn’t that.

----------


## Schumiac

> Donna’s point was that Dick didn’t need saving, he was there cause he wanted to be. So either they go there and he tells them to leave, cause he is choosing to be there, or they go there to get him out of a situation he doesn’t need help getting out of. Which is ultimately what happen. She was a total ice queen, and her being mad in the first place is rather hypocritical, but she called it. She knows Dick. What Raven needs to save him from wasn’t that.


Donna knew Dick was in prison because he wanted to, and could get out if he wanted to, yes. She was right on that. But Rachel was NOT saying "lets save Dick from his pity party, he needs a pep talk from us", she was saying "In my dreams I am seeing Deathstroke killing Dick, he is in danger, we need to save him now!". Very different things. They simply had no way of knowing if the visions were symbolic or rather literal, them being a glimpse into the future was very much a possibility. Rachel certainly believed them to be true. And if Deathstroke was coming for Dick, he did need help. From them all. So Donna basically refused to take a few hours from her busy schedule to save Dick from a possible attack from Deathstoke. She wasn't just abandoning Dick, she was also abandoning Rachel who was clearly going to go try save Dick on her own no matter what so would have been facing Deathstroke all on her own (which is why Rachel was in tears telling them SHE needed their help, it wasn't because she thinks she can't give a good pep talk on her own, it was because she thought Deathstroke was coming). Not splitting as a team and going to save the teammate whose whereabouts they know & whose imminent death is being prophesied would have been the safer, more logical choice IMHO. But Donna was leaving in a huff, angry with Dick and not really thinking it through..

----------


## CPSparkles

BatBoys Age reversed








https://twitter.com/jjmk_bot

----------


## Jackalope89

Admittedly, not really a fan of the reverse age thing. Just has no appeal to me.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #66 Preview

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...-nightwing-66/

----------


## Jackalope89

> Nightwing #66 Preview
> 
> http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...-nightwing-66/


The fakes are still alive? Come on!

----------


## Godlike13

The fist issues of the event arc should have been about the Talon killing these nobodies, and maybe making some sort of impact to get any kind of attention. Them dying is the only potential value these characters have at this point. This arc is what they are now saying Ric was all for, so fricking do what needs to be done already. I know it’s ridiculous to expect any actual real thought from the creators on this, but even they have to see how these nobodies completely undermine their new story and the threat of who they are now saying are the big bads of the entire Ric saga.

----------


## Schumiac

I scanned  through it as don't feel like reading anything the fake Nightwings are saying/doing. And if I am not mistaken Ric isn't even in that preview, right?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I scanned  through it as don't feel like reading anything the fake Nightwings are saying/doing. And if I am not mistaken Ric isn't even in that preview, right?


they are a good third of the issue alwong with some flashback from the annual..

next time they are gonna pretend like dick is gonna hurt them but if cobb wont kill a fake nightwing then neither will rick

----------


## Pohzee

With Tom Lyle's passing, has anything come of that Nightwing story he was working on with Steve Orlando?

----------


## dropkickjake

They gonna use Dick as a Talon and not use that perfect design from Nightwing 29? pretty messed up.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## K. Jones

> They gonna use Dick as a Talon and not use that perfect design from Nightwing 29? pretty messed up.


That was legit my thought too!

I guess there's story logic. That was the costume Dick's imagination would have put on himself as a Talon, therefore it was imaginative, cool, sleek, and just killer. This is the costume Cobb would imagine. So it's like ... instantly somewhat weird and dated.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That was legit my thought too!
> 
> I guess there's story logic. That was the costume Dick's imagination would have put on himself as a Talon, therefore it was imaginative, cool, sleek, and just killer. This is the costume Cobb would imagine. So it's like ... instantly somewhat weird and dated.



 we really cant have anything






I wwould read an otherworld story of him being Talon though

Do all the batboys have an evil alternate idenity

Renagde/Talon  Arkham Knight  Harvest   Damian ....... Al Ghoul    lol

----------


## Godlike13

Do you know how you know no one at DC pays any actual attention to what’s going on in Nightwing, they let Dauterman slip away to Marvel right after his short stint on the title.

----------


## Rac7d*

any truth to this?
https://liistudio.com/stranger-thing...ghtwing/44960/

----------


## Drako

> any truth to this?
> https://liistudio.com/stranger-thing...ghtwing/44960/


Doesn't look real at all. 
It's BS to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Doesn't look real at all. 
> It's BS to me.


yeah hes not pretty enough

----------


## Pohzee

It always starts with some fancast or fanart on Reddit or something followed by comic "news" sites spamming articles about "Watch X celebrity SUIT UP as Y." And then it just echoes around.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, not buying it.

I mean, *maybe* there's a Robin (doubt we get a Nightwing, Patterson isn't old enough is he?) in the new movie, I haven't heard there isn't. But I'm not buying some random rumor when no one connected to the film (far as I know) has said anything about Dick Grayson.

----------


## Drako

The Nightwing Suit from Titans:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ76ATOW...g&name=900x900

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Nightwing Suit from Titans:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ76ATOW...g&name=900x900



OMG its beautiful!!!!!    this is it

This is where things are gonna start looking up for Dick Grayson

----------


## Pohzee

That is awesome. Couldn't be much better.

----------


## Frontier

> The Nightwing Suit from Titans:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ76ATOW...g&name=900x900


That's pretty much how I was hoping a live-action Nightwing suit would look  :Smile: . 

Maybe make the chest logo a little bigger, but still  :Wink: .

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, they nailed it. I'm surprised it looks this good, honestly. I don't watch the show but from what I've seen (and I do see clips and photos and stuff) this is on a whole different level. Like, the Titans suits are usually a step or two up from what we see on the CW or Marvel's ABC shows, but I feel like this Nightwing suit wouldn't look out of place in a film.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> The Nightwing Suit from Titans:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ76ATOW...g&name=900x900


Looks good, I think? it's kinda hard to screw up a black suit, blue stripe and a domino mask. Just don't put nipples on it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> The Nightwing Suit from Titans:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ76ATOW...g&name=900x900


That's sweet

----------


## gazdadude

Is rebirth and titons a good place to start with nightwing

----------


## Godlike13

Rebirth Nightwing up to issue #34, yes. You can go up to #49 if you want, but #34 it falls into creator musical chairs and random throwaway arcs that go nowhere. They’re not all terrible, but not particularly good either. Unfortunately the editorial is really bad on this book, and once they lost the first creative team they were just seemingly incapable of putting anything really together. It’s pretty frustrating to be honest.
*Do not go beyond #49 though!* Book goes to complete shit. Like its embarrassing DC actually puts it on the selves bad. 

With Rebith Titans if you going into it for Nightwing then best just avoid it. It not very good, and when it comes to Nightwing it’s one of the worse representations of Nightwing in all honesty. It purposely set out to undermine and mock the character on a conceptual level, with no redemption. Its everything Nightwing shouldn’t be, by a mediocre writer who quite frankly had no clue what he should be doing with the title or team. By the end of it the team and every character involved were just worse.

Somthing else worth mentioning, Nightwing the New Order is a mini that came out around Rebith. It’s wasn’t terrible.

----------


## Pohzee

> Is rebirth and titons a good place to start with nightwing


Titans Rebirth isn’t worth reading. The first arc of Nightwing: Rebirth is really good, not as much after. Some did, so it may be worth sticking along until Seeley left around issue 30 or 40. After that it goes of the rails with constant creative team shifts and no real direction until we got to the crappy situation we’re in currently.

If you want some solid intro Nightwing or Titans stories, I’d suggest also Nightwing: Year One or the 1980’s New Teen Titans series.

----------


## Frontier



----------


## Drako

> 


I never been so happy and so bummed out with a trailer before.
Especially with all the clues in there.

*spoilers:*
Donna is the one who die, you can see her lasso next to the casket.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

> Rebirth Nightwing up to issue #34, yes. You can go up to #49 if you want, but #34 it falls into creator musical chairs and random throwaway arcs that go nowhere. Theyre not all terrible, but not particularly good either. Unfortunately the editorial is really bad on this book, and once they lost the first creative team they were just seemingly incapable of putting anything really together. Its pretty frustrating to be honest.
> *Do not go beyond #49 though!* Book goes to complete shit. Like its embarrassing DC actually puts it on the selves bad. 
> 
> With Rebith Titans if you going into it for Nightwing then best just avoid it. It not very good, and when it comes to Nightwing its one of the worse representations of Nightwing in all honesty. It purposely set out to undermine and mock the character on a conceptual level, with no redemption. Its everything Nightwing shouldnt be, by a mediocre writer who quite frankly had no clue what he should be doing with the title or team. By the end of it the team and every character involved were just worse.
> 
> Somthing else worth mentioning, Nightwing the New Order is a mini that came out around Rebith. Its wasnt terrible.


This is not completly true or fair

If you wanna see Dick in a fun team book, bonding with his closet friends, the kids he grew up with into his own identity away from batman then you will enjoy it. It does get weak when the JL enters, they pretty much ruin the book. But i would say give a chance with your own eyes.

----------


## Rac7d*

> 


This is it
this is where it begins for Nightwing.  A live action presence that will attract the eyes of the GP. DC will not be able to shove him aside anymore

----------


## Schumiac

> I never been so happy and so bummed out with a trailer before.
> Especially with all the clues in there.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Donna is the one who die, you can see her lasso next to the casket.
> *end of spoilers*


Would't worry much about it, doubt they would really leave any clues on the trailer. Probably one of Rachel's dreams, nothing more. *spoilers:*
 Donna is also one of the two missing from what looks like Titans attending a funeral shot, the other ones missing being Rachel & Jason, but again, likely it is all Rachel's vision
*end of spoilers*

Really excited about the finale and loving the Nightwing look.

----------


## cc008

> This is it
> this is where it begins for Nightwing.  A live action presence that will attract the eyes of the GP. DC will not be able to shove him aside anymore


He looks great. I haven't watched the show in its entirety yet, but a bunch of clips. Love the costume and it looks awesome in action.

----------


## Ascended

> This is it
> this is where it begins for Nightwing.  A live action presence that will attract the eyes of the GP. DC will not be able to shove him aside anymore


I hope you're right.

I've said for a long time that if WB (AT&T now I guess?) takes notice of Nightwing (not Dick as Robin, but Nightwing) then DC won't have free rein to screw him over like they have been. If the gods are kind, this is the beginning of all that.

Fingers crossed.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I hope you're right.
> 
> I've said for a long time that if WB (AT&T now I guess?) takes notice of Nightwing (not Dick as Robin, but Nightwing) then DC won't have free rein to screw him over like they have been. If the gods are kind, this is the beginning of all that.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


Well thank God we have a  whole season of him in this persona coming up, and I'm glad much like Harley Quinn they took inspiration from the Arkham series look of Nightwing including his Escrima Sticks

----------


## Drako

> Well thank God we have a  whole season of him in this persona coming up, and I'm glad much like Harley Quinn they took inspiration from the Arkham series look of Nightwing including his Escrima Sticks


It's funny how the Arkham Series put their stamp on him with so little. Even before Arkham Knight, with him only as DLC character for the challenge maps Dick was already using the electric escrima sticks in the comics because of the game.

The popularity of this game franchise is huge.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's funny how the Arkham Series put their stamp on him with so little. Even before Arkham Knight, with him only as DLC character for the challenge maps Dick was already using the electric escrima sticks in the comics because of the game.
> 
> The popularity of this game franchise is huge.


He doesnt use them in the comics often, they mostly jsut make his covers look cool, but yeah  Arkham was massive

----------


## Restingvoice

> This is it
> this is where it begins for Nightwing.  A live action presence that will attract the eyes of the GP. DC will not be able to shove him aside anymore


Supergirl has a live-action and they benched her for a year in comics because they were waiting for Rebirth relaunch. It's not gonna do anything. At least while they still have a plan for that timeline relaunch. Once they relaunch, maybe, but not soon.

----------


## Badou

Still not sure the Nightwing costume translates well into live action. It is just an all black armored suit, but I'm not sure what they could have done to make it stand out more. 

I've only seen an episode or two of the Titans this season then fell off, but I don't know if I really want to catch up in it even with the first ever appearance of a live action Nightwing. Still surprised it took 2 seasons basically to get to this point.

----------


## Badou

> This is not completly true or fair
> 
> If you wanna see Dick in a fun team book, bonding with his closet friends, the kids he grew up with into his own identity away from batman then you will enjoy it. It does get weak when the JL enters, they pretty much ruin the book. But i would say give a chance with your own eyes.


Dick in Rebirth Titans was written terribly though. Even before the JL showed up. Abnett's Dick is still the worst Dick Grayson I have ever read. He didn't do anything in that whole run going all the way back to Titans Hunt where he felt like a capable leader. He barely even interacted with the rest of the Titans too in that run outside of Wally.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> This is it
> this is where it begins for Nightwing.  A live action presence that will attract the eyes of the GP. DC will not be able to shove him aside anymore


well....maybe? I can think of plenty of characters who have been getting a lot of exposure on screen but aren't getting much love in the comics. I think part of it is that we live in an age where so many characters have made the jump to live action treatment.

----------


## Drako



----------


## Blue22

All he needs is a helmet and he'd look more like a Power Ranger than the Power Rangers did in their movie XD

In all seriousness though, I do really like the costume.

----------


## Restingvoice

I like his hair. ^^ (My Grammarly keeps trying to autocorrect "his" as "her". Grammarly is sexist)

As usual, the live-action costume tends to be overly detailed, I think because if they make it too simple it will look like a homemade cosplay costume (technically it is home-made) but separate armor elements make sense because it needs to be strong and flexible.

----------


## Lee Stone

> All he needs is a helmet and he'd look more like a Power Ranger than the Power Rangers did in their movie XD
> 
> In all seriousness though, I do really like the costume.


He looks like a black and blue Iron Man without a helmet.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Supergirl has a live-action and they benched her for a year in comics because they were waiting for Rebirth relaunch. It's not gonna do anything. At least while they still have a plan for that timeline relaunch. Once they relaunch, maybe, but not soon.





> well....maybe? I can think of plenty of characters who have been getting a lot of exposure on screen but aren't getting much love in the comics. I think part of it is that we live in an age where so many characters have made the jump to live action treatment.


You guys are forgetting how bottom of the barrel we are withndick in the comics right now. It cannot get any worse. Supergirl tv show was right before the rebirth where they made her look match the show I believe. It did not derail her, as far as I know she participates is most Superman family events and crossovers. Then again I guess Kara never is a threat to Clark, they should be more or less equal in power but it never feels that way.

My point  is that it would be more difficult to justify hiding away nightwing like DC has done many time over the last 8
Years as he becomes more recognizable to the public He is more or less the face of the dcuniverse network and I love that

----------


## Godlike13

It’s not gonna do shit. Titans is already at the end of season 2 and they have done nothing to increase their profile or incorporate the show. The only thing we got was another mediocre Jurgan’s book with Tim Drake at the helm, LoL. Nightwing has never been a hard sell for them with in the comic market as it is, but nonetheless the old guys behind the comics don’t care and just have no interest in investing into his character any more then they have to. The’ll bring Nightwing back at their convenience, but don’t expect much deviation from them just using Nightwing as a platform to keep other old dudes busy with lazy editors.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It’s not gonna do shit. Titans is already at the end of season 2 and they have done nothing to increase their profile or incorporate the show. The only thing we got was another mediocre Jurgan’s book with Tim Drake at the helm, LoL. Nightwing has never been a hard sell for them with in the comic market as it is, but nonetheless the old guys behind the comics don’t care and just have no interest in investing into his character any more then they have to. The’ll bring Nightwing back at their convenience, but don’t expect much deviation from them just using Nightwing as a platform to keep other old dudes busy with lazy editors.


When did the light die in your eyes

----------


## Frontier

> 


Looking awesome  :Cool: .

----------


## cc008

> Looking awesome .


Agreed. Very Arkham Knight-y. Love it.

----------


## Godlike13

> When did the light die in your eyes


Nightwing #51 v4

----------


## Rac7d*

A special for Nightwing and Batgirl coming  before valentines day written by actor Jay Baruchel
https://screenrant.com/jay-baruchel-...twing-batgirl/ 

it will be apart of crimes of passion

----------


## byrd156

> Looking awesome .


The only real downside is the mask is just his Robin one. Hope that changes.

----------


## gregpersons

> The only real downside is the mask is just his Robin one. Hope that changes.


He could use a belt too, I think, like the Young Justice cartoon... does he have any pockets? Seems like a downgrade from the Robin suit in terms of pockets without a belt.

I haven't seen the new episode yet though so I don't know how it looks in motion... probably shadowy.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The only real downside is the mask is just his Robin one. Hope that changes.


at least they got the gloves right

----------


## cc008

Little details like the gloves warms my heart

----------


## Ascended

For real, they did right by Dick as far as the suit goes. Still havent watched the show but the odds of me tuning in for season 3 are improving a whole lot.

Now, is this show going to make Didio suddenly realize how much potential revenue he's losing because he keeps taking dumps on Nightwing? No. The fact that Dick's book sold as well and as consistently as it did (yknow, back when things weren't so gods awful) should've been reason enough for any sane businessman to put a little effort and investment into the character. But Didio's been able to get away with all this crap because his bosses don't care. They're too far above the publishing to really notice stuff like this. 

What we need is for Didio's bosses to take notice of the character and then tell Didio to stop sabotaging him. We don't need Didio to change his mind, we need his bosses to recognize Nightwing's potential. 

I'm not convinced that this is going to make an impact on WB/AT&T. Even if the show is doing well in streaming services (and it was at one point right?) that's still pocket change for the guys at the top, and comic books are so far down the list of things they gotta contend with they don't register at all. And no matter how big Nightwing gets he'll still be stuck behind whatever DC/WB/AT&T do with the Bat. But on the bright side, the massive multi-billion dollar industry that is superheroes starts on the printed page, and at this point even the most obtuse corporate smuck knows that these IP's are worth adapting, and you start that process at the comics level (mining the source material, etc). All it takes is Didio's bosses noticing Nightwing and wondering why more isn't being done with him. At that point, Didio's opinions are worth less than our's, since we'd be the ones buying the movie tickets.

It's a long shot, yeah. But I refuse to believe that in a world where the friggin Guardians of the Galaxy can be a major blockbuster franchise that Nightwing can't get even a *little* respect.

----------


## Rac7d*

> For real, they did right by Dick as far as the suit goes. Still havent watched the show but the odds of me tuning in for season 3 are improving a whole lot.
> 
> Now, is this show going to make Didio suddenly realize how much potential revenue he's losing because he keeps taking dumps on Nightwing? No. The fact that Dick's book sold as well and as consistently as it did (yknow, back when things weren't so gods awful) should've been reason enough for any sane businessman to put a little effort and investment into the character. But Didio's been able to get away with all this crap because his bosses don't care. They're too far above the publishing to really notice stuff like this. 
> 
> What we need is for Didio's bosses to take notice of the character and then tell Didio to stop sabotaging him. We don't need Didio to change his mind, we need his bosses to recognize Nightwing's potential. 
> 
> I'm not convinced that this is going to make an impact on WB/AT&T. Even if the show is doing well in streaming services (and it was at one point right?) that's still pocket change for the guys at the top, and comic books are so far down the list of things they gotta contend with they don't register at all. And no matter how big Nightwing gets he'll still be stuck behind whatever DC/WB/AT&T do with the Bat. But on the bright side, the massive multi-billion dollar industry that is superheroes starts on the printed page, and at this point even the most obtuse corporate smuck knows that these IP's are worth adapting, and you start that process at the comics level (mining the source material, etc). All it takes is Didio's bosses noticing Nightwing and wondering why more isn't being done with him. At that point, Didio's opinions are worth less than our's, since we'd be the ones buying the movie tickets.
> 
> It's a long shot, yeah. But I refuse to believe that in a world where the friggin Guardians of the Galaxy can be a major blockbuster franchise that Nightwing can't get even a *little* respect.


Dick/nightwing is basicly the star of dcuniverse site itself and I hope that being the face of that protect him in hencomics  viewership of the show and intrest from the gp will help push for fast tracking the oboe even if it’s a HBOMAX exclusive 

Once he gets a move no one can touch him  and the tv show will help

----------


## Restingvoice

> What we need is for Didio's bosses to take notice of the character and then tell Didio to stop sabotaging him. We don't need Didio to change his mind, we need his bosses to recognize Nightwing's potential.


Yeah, I heard that's pretty much how they kept saving Robin. Jason died, but the top (I don't know if DC's already under WB at that point) still wants to sell Robin, so they make Tim. Damian died and DC wanted to go with Snyder and push Duke, but WB demands Damian returns because they still want to sell Son of Batman.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I'm re-reading old Nightwing. I've got to issue 13 of Chuck Dixon's run. There is a really strange page in issue 13. Bruce is in Dicks apartment, standing by his computer. He pulls out a big red bible. It is in no way relevant to the plot and it's hard to tell if it was hidden by Dicks computer, it wasn't visible earlier, or if Bruce brought it. Bizarre. Never reall thought of Dick as religious.

----------


## Pohzee

That’s Chuck Dixon and Scott McDaniel for you.

----------


## Restingvoice

That makes me curious. Bruce started out religious in the sense that he prays on his bed to find his parents' murderer in the Golden Age (although you can also say it's just for the image of pure innocence), has Dick ever shown to do anything like that in his history?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I have a vague memory of Dick by a church, saying there was never any time for it. Or something along those lines. I think it's further on in this series, not necessarily Chuck Dixon's run though. If I haven't imagined it and I come across it, I'll let you know.

----------


## Pohzee

McDaniel I believe has said in an interview that he snuck in Bibles and youth group ass band easter eggs to acknowledge with his faith or Dixon's.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, I heard that's pretty much how they kept saving Robin. Jason died, but the top (I don't know if DC's already under WB at that point) still wants to sell Robin, so they make Tim. Damian died and DC wanted to go with Snyder and push Duke, but WB demands Damian returns because they still want to sell Son of Batman.


Pretty much. I mean, none of us are in the offices so I'm not pretending I know for certain how these guys do their business. But a company has to protect its assets, and that includes ensuring the IP doesn't stray too far from what makes money. 

All we need is for Didio's bosses to recognize the sales potential in Nightwing. And if he's really as prominent on the DCU sub as people have said (I dont have it) that's a good start. If Nightwing goes over well in season 3, that'll be even better.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s the thing though isn’t it. They are still selling Nightwing technically, and have been consistently. Notice how Ric is always accompanied by variants that don’t reflect Ric at all. Nightwing needs to get to a point where the people behind it are required to do more then the bare minimum of what they absolutely have to.  

And it’s not necessarily easy to see what they are actually doing at first glance. Cause like I said they still are technically selling Nightwing, but of course they make sure to support it with regurgitate bad ideas and sub par creators. That’s the kind of stuff that easily goes unseen. And on the off chance the creators aren’t painfully mediocre they are then bumped to other projects ASAP. 
Even with Ric, they sell lazy shit like Ric on the pretense of doing something “different” or “new”, but when you read deeper, as readers inherently do, you see the obvious bullshit of that. You see how it’s put in the hands of out of touch formulaic creators, and lazy editors, who don’t do “different” or “new”. So what readers really get is shitty and lazy formulaic crap, that just try to tell you how it’s different or new, when in actuality its clearly not. And when people reject it these creators just throw it back at readers with how they weren’t accepting or open to anything new. Like Lobdell did with his exit.

 So even if Nightwing does start seeing more popularity from outside stuff, these guys know how to make it look like they are doing more then they actually are.

----------


## WonderNight

> That’s the thing though isn’t it. They are still selling Nightwing technically, and have been consistently. Notice how Ric is always accompanied by variants that don’t reflect Ric at all. Nightwing needs to get to a point where the people behind it are required to do more then the bare minimum of what they absolutely have to.  
> 
> And it’s not necessarily easy to see what they are actually doing at first glance. Cause like I said they still are technically selling Nightwing, but of course they make sure to support it with regurgitate bad ideas and sub par creators. That’s the kind of stuff that easily goes unseen. And on the off chance the creators aren’t painfully mediocre they are then bumped to other projects ASAP. 
> Even with Ric, they sell lazy shit like Ric on the pretense of doing something “different” or “new”, but when you read deeper, as readers inherently do, you see the obvious bullshit of that. You see how it’s put in the hands of out of touch formulaic creators, and lazy editors, who don’t do “different” or “new”. So what readers really get is shitty and lazy formulaic crap, that just try to tell you how it’s different or new, when in actuality its clearly not. And when people reject it these creators just throw it back at readers with how they weren’t accepting or open to anything new. Like Lobdell did with his exit.
> 
>  So even if Nightwing does start seeing more popularity from outside stuff, these guys know how to make it look like they are doing more then they actually are.


So in other words just give up on nightwing in comics.

----------


## Valentonis

> So in other words just give up on nightwing in comics.


I'm starting to approach this mindset myself, which pains me to say. The whole Ric situation has completely sapped any confidence that I have in comic Nightwing's future, and even when he comes back I can't bring myself to get invested in another round of miscellaneous adventures in Bludhaven under a C-list writer. Right now, Titans season 3, Young Justice season 4, and the possibility that he'll appear in Matt Reeves' Batman franchise at some point down the line are the only things keeping me invested.

----------


## Godlike13

> So in other words just give up on nightwing in comics.


You can hope they accidentally bumble into a Grayson again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm starting to approach this mindset myself, which pains me to say. The whole Ric situation has completely sapped any confidence that I have in comic Nightwing's future, and even when he comes back I can't bring myself to get invested in* another round of miscellaneous adventures in Bludhaven* under a C-list writer. Right now, Titans season 3, Young Justice season 4, and the possibility that he'll appear in Matt Reeves' Batman franchise at some point down the line are the only things keeping me invested.


But I love those, he cant have a personal life if he in the mask
24/7 worldwide. Save the city then go home

----------


## Valentonis

> But I love those, he can’t have a personal life if he in the mask
> 24/7 worldwide. Save the world then go home


Don't get me wrong, I actually love the smaller scale Bludhaven stories. #15 of Seeley's run is probably my single favorite issue of Nightwing's publication history as it represents everything that I love about the character. But the last few arcs in Blud have just been bland street level stuff that you can get out of any old superhero. Seeley's run had problems, but it at least had some heart and vision to it you know?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Don't get me wrong, I actually love the smaller scale Bludhaven stories. #15 of Seeley's run is probably my single favorite issue of Nightwing's publication history as it represents everything that I love about the character. But the last few arcs in Blud have just been bland street level stuff that you can get out of any old superhero. Seeley's run had problems, but it at least had some heart and vision to it you know?


I would have like titans to be the title to be used for large scale thing too bad the JL grounded them

----------


## Restingvoice

> Pretty much. I mean, none of us are in the offices so I'm not pretending I know for certain how these guys do their business. But a company has to protect its assets, and that includes ensuring the IP doesn't stray too far from what makes money. 
> 
> All we need is for Didio's bosses to recognize the sales potential in Nightwing. And if he's really as prominent on the DCU sub as people have said (I dont have it) that's a good start. If Nightwing goes over well in season 3, that'll be even better.


I believe it because when DCU first started he's the cover boy, his Robin faces plastered in all the promos and banners. 
While people still talk about CW shows, The Flash and Supergirl, with the new one being Batwoman, they're all kinda blurred together, especially with Crisis on Infinite Earths. 
Titans still stand alone, so they stand out, and at the center of it is Dick Grayson who people have been waiting for 2 full seasons to appear in a Nightwing costume.

----------


## Ascended

> ThatÂ’s the thing though isnÂ’t it. They are still selling Nightwing technically, and have been consistently. Notice how Ric is always accompanied by variants that donÂ’t reflect Ric at all. Nightwing needs to get to a point where the people behind it are required to do more then the bare minimum of what they absolutely have to.  
> 
> So even if Nightwing does start seeing more popularity from outside stuff, these guys know how to make it look like they are doing more then they actually are.


To a point, yeah. But we don't need anyone to look that deep; the problems right now are fairly obvious. Let's pretend for a moment that one of Didio's bosses does notice that Nightwing is a popular character on Titans, Young Justice, those direct-to-DvD cartoons, and whatever else. There's (I think) enough on the surface to indicate that this is a IP with some legs on it. And let's say that this guy, for whatever reason, takes a look at how Dick sells in comics (maybe he's bored?). What's he going to see? He'll see that the book is one of the company's most consistent selling titles with a high sales floor, usually outsells pretty much everything that isn't the League or Harley Quinn, and does so with lower end talent that don't get paid as much as the big name creators (which means Nightwing maybe has a better cost-profit ratio than average, and that sorta thing is important). Dick's got all that going for him....until recently. This exec is going to see that these sales, typically very consistent, have begun to tank hard in the last year or so. 

At that point, this hypothetical exec already has enough information to force a change on DC without having to know anything more. All he has to say is "the sales here are awful when they're usually not. Fix it." Didio, being a guy who likes having a job and income, will have little choice but to do what he's told, and the most reliable way to get sales back up is to give fans what they want; a recognizable Nightwing. According to rumor the "fix the sales or else" threat got us a full blown reboot in 2011, it should be enough to get Dick Grayson back in costume.

And should this pretend exec of our's actually look deeper, he'll see that sales began to fall because of the Ric direction. And, gods willing, if our new favorite exec look even deeper he'll find Didio's personal bias which we here all know about. That means that when he tells Didio to fix sales, he's going to have an idea of what to watch out for. 

Didio can try his "Dick makes Batman look old" and "Dick's redundant and pointless" arguments, but the bottom line is the only thing this exec (should) care about, and it doesn't require a lot of imagination or business knowledge to see the giant holes in Didio's arguments, or the simple solution of "to get sales back to where they were, do what you were doing." At worst it means more average-level Nightwing comics, which is a pretty big improvement over what we have now. At best? At best it means Didio puts a big name creator on the book, at least for the short term, and even a six issue run by Bendis, Johns, Rucka, or King (shudder) is going to do wonders for our former Boy Wonder.

We just need someone above Didio to recognize that there *is* a problem here. They don't have to realize how deep it runs, as long as they know it's there and tell DC/Didio to fix it, we're good.

----------


## Fergus

> So in other words just give up on nightwing in comics.


I'm currently just spending on old Nightwing comic and old comics with Dick Grayson. I did buy the latest Nightwing Annual though.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm currently just spending on old Nightwing comic and old comics with Dick Grayson. I did buy the latest Nightwing Annual though.


Basically the same here. I don't read a book when it's not good (by my standards) but since the Ric thing got started I've felt the need to continue supporting Nightwing, just to show that I love the character but not this direction. So I've been buying as much merchandise as I can find; t-shirts and magnets and even an action figure. Gotta show DC that I support Nightwing, but won't support bullsh*t comics.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

Live action Nightwing was cool, nailed his style, but the episode itself was all kinds of weird. It rushed to tie up the loose ends with Deathstoke, and the stuff with Donna was just weird. I don’t know where they are going with that, if anywhere.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Live action Nightwing was cool, nailed his style, but the episode itself was all kinds of weird. It rushed to tie up the loose ends with Deathstoke, and the stuff with Donna was just weird. I dont know where they are going with that, if anywhere.


I think I am ready for him to hve his solo spin off now

----------


## Drako

> Live action Nightwing was cool, nailed his style, but the episode itself was all kinds of weird. It rushed to tie up the loose ends with Deathstoke, and the stuff with Donna was just weird. I dont know where they are going with that, if anywhere.


I agree. Nightwing was cool, the rest was so underwhelming.

*spoilers:*
Donna's death was so dumb. And looks like Rachel will revive her, which make even less sense for her to die. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Schumiac

I have mixed feelings about the finale, but loved everything to do with Nightwing/Dick and figure some of the "questionable/weird" stuff they will explain and work on come S3. But they should have done a better job with the finale.


going to put full review under spoilers, just in case.

*spoilers:*

*The good:*

Dick/Nightwing. From suit to the action to Dick actually being smart and getting things done and being there when needed. Him apologizing to Gar and owning to his mistake in leaving him alone. Felt like the Nightwing I know and love!

Bruce. Love him messing up Mercy's plans and OMG the smiley emojis. this Bruce actually has a sense of humor (though might be a tad influenced by his villains lol) and TIME for his kids (well at least who seems to be possibly be his favorite kid on this show) and shows he cares and even helps out the Titans. Take note comics writers! Loved the talk between him and Dick. He is great.

Jason showing up for Donna's funeral. Awww...

Elko. The reveal it was Rachel's doing all along. awesome.

Donna actually showing some power. She was able to stand her ground against Superboy  for a while (which does make one wonder why she did so pourly against Deathstroke though) AND I think we actually saw her show some superspeed at the very end, which was weird.

*The bad:*

the resolution to both Deathstroke and Cadmus was very rushed and lame. Which makes me think in S3 or onward they will reappear but honestly Titans thinking Deathstroke was dead for sure was stupid. They didn't even really CHECK in any way. Dick just looked down and said "yes" lol. Did they just leave him lying in the street like that and went on to the carnival? and never bothered to check again? Dumb dumb dumb. And Cadmus's brainwashing shouldn't have been so easy to break. Although it was nice and made sense for Rachel to be able to reach Gar and loved that Dick figured out how to save Conner we should have seen them doing checkups on them and trying to undo the damage because what Cadmus did was also something physical. The way it is, I feel they might snap back at anytime. Especially Gar. Wouldn't listen classical music around him!

Donna's death. Easily the dumbest death ever. Really, show? Deathstroke didn't kill her. Superboy didn't kill her. Falling debree electrocuted and killed her? Seriously? Who did the actress piss of so much? (though guess Rachel will just revive her for S3 so guess no one, they just needed their promos to say "a titan will fall down as another rises" and needed it to be not permanent),,

*The Questionable:*

Jericho/Rose. So, will they always be a dual act? Or will Rachel came in S3 and fix that situation too after reviving Donna. Because if so they are getting very close to overdoing the Rachel trick where she just fixes everything. But I feel it is a situation that DOES need to be fixed somehow.

Was the Amazon whose hand Dick was shaking supposed to be Diana? if not, where the hell is Diana?

Blackfire... Err, kind of convenient of her to come down to earth to mess with her sister when we know Kory didn't have the means to go back home and Titans aren't likely to be able to space travel. I am sure saves the show budget too. But really, why would she even bother? But not going to judge too harshly yet, guess s3 will explain it. I am guessing she might be facing resistance to her rule and came down to earth to kill off Kory to put an end to it all.

and I still wish Hawk and Dove to have their spin-off and be gone from Titans. But must admit at this point I like Hank better than Dawn. The guy can at least self-reflect and be humble and isnt always "me, me, me,  I am great and wonderful, how dare you not listen to me/disappoint me/disagree with me".  
*end of spoilers*

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

Season 2 wasnt terrible but like season 1 it had a weak finale. Nightwing was totally the best part tho!
*spoilers:*
 The fight with Deathstroke was disappointing. I never thought Dick was in danger of losing. Slade is a badass, but against Dick, Donna, Raven, Dawn and Rose? he had no chance, and really it didnt look like Dick and Rose had THAT hard a time beating him. I didnt care about the Cadmus plot. And Donnas death was lame. British Bruce continues to be jarring.
*end of spoilers* I dont know if Im checking out next season. Again this wasnt bad but it didnt leave me wanting more. But if I do itll probably be just for Dick and Jason.

----------


## king81992

> I agree. Nightwing was cool, the rest was so underwhelming.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Donna's death was so dumb. And looks like Rachel will revive her, which make even less sense for her to die. 
> *end of spoilers*


And that's not going to go well at all. I've seen this plot too many times in comics, cartoons, anime, manga and books to know how this ends. It always leads to trauma for everyone involved.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Season 2 wasn’t terrible but like season 1 it had a weak finale. Nightwing was totally the best part tho!
> *spoilers:*
>  The fight with Deathstroke was disappointing. I never thought Dick was in danger of losing. Slade is a badass, but against Dick, Donna, Raven, Dawn and Rose? he had no chance, and really it didn’t look like Dick and Rose had THAT hard a time beating him. I didn’t care about the Cadmus plot. And Donna’s death was lame. British Bruce continues to be jarring.
> *end of spoilers* I don’t know if I’m checking out next season. Again this wasn’t bad but it didn’t leave me wanting more. But if I do it’ll probably be just for Dick and Jason.


Deathstroke would often singlehandedly take out the titans as a team

----------


## bearman

As his tailor predicted, Dicks new suit enabled him to fight like an acrobat, not just like a bruiser like he had been doing.
Much more satisfying!

----------


## Valentonis

Titans really needs a new showrunner...

But Nightwing was undeniably dope, him shutting down Slade (with Rose's help) as his first fight was the best I could ask from his live action debut. The rest of the episode, on the other hand, is best left to the birds

----------


## Rac7d*

> Titans really needs a new showrunner...
> 
> But Nightwing was undeniably dope, him shutting down Slade (with Rose's help) as his first fight was the best I could ask from his live action debut. The rest of the episode, on the other hand, is best left to the birds


This is His first wing against deathstroke as nightwing right?

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> Deathstroke would often singlehandedly take out the titans as a team


Maybe in the cartoons and comics, but here Dick and Rose were able to overpower him themselves. And it’s hard to feel any stakes when reinforcements were literally waiting in the car a few feet from them.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe in the cartoons and comics, but here Dick and Rose were able to overpower him themselves. And it’s hard to feel any stakes when reinforcements were literally waiting in the car a few feet from them.


Who the unpredictable raven, depowered starfire, he already wrecked Donna and that leaves dove
Deathstroke has been able to beat the whole team at once on his own in comics, so I had no idea how this was going to go

----------


## Digifiend

Tom King and Mikel Janín are working on something Grayson related:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5kraCFh...=1jmr9fkvptql1

So, does that mean Ric is finally done?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Tom King and Mikel Janín are working on something Grayson related:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B5kraCFh...=1jmr9fkvptql1
> 
> *So, does that mean Ric is finally done?*


One can hope so. But it can also be that "Ric" becomes the new status quo for Dick going forward, as part of DiDio's plan to erase that generation to stop his favorite characters from looking "old".

----------


## Denirac

> Tom King and Mikel Janín are working on something Grayson related:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B5kraCFh...=1jmr9fkvptql1
> 
> So, does that mean Ric is finally done?


After the last time King wrote Grayson, I'd rather not, its proven Seeley was criminally underrated on their Grayson run

----------


## Pohzee

King wrote all of the best issues of Grayson. But I think working with Seeley has shifted his view of the character in a way that was detrimental in the long run. 

If A Once Crowded Sky was really a Dick Grayson story (it totally was) it was a much more nuanced take than the caricaturish and goofy Dick that we often see from King now.

I will never forget the time King said that Wolfman Dick was written more like Tim. It's the dumbest thing I've ever read on many levels.

----------


## Godlike13

King and Janín doing something Grayson. Yes please.

----------


## Ascended

> King and Janín doing something Grayson. Yes please.


Depends on which King shows up. If we get the guy who helped craft Grayson, then absolutely yes (even though it seems Seely was the driving force in that book's quality). If we get the King who's written Dick more recently then hard pass.

If we get a proper Nightwing out of it, then I may give it a look no matter what. If it's more of this Ric bullsh*t I'm passing on it no matter what.

Janin however, is welcome regardless.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godlike13

Shooting him in the head was the least of Ric's issues. Its everything that came after. Which King doesn't seem to be a fan of anymore then anyone else.

----------


## Denirac

> Shooting him in the head was the least of Ric's issues. Its everything that came after. Which King doesn't seem to be a fan of anymore then anyone else.


Ric wouldnt have happened if King didnt give DiDio an opening

----------


## Pohzee

We would have been in a equally bad spot with or without Ric. The problem is the revolving door of creators phoning it in that still would have happened starting with Percy leaving for Hollywood.

----------


## Badou

I kind of doubt it is any kind of series or change in direction. I doubt King is going to work on two different ongoing Batman projects with him already doing Batman and Catwoman. It is probably just a one off. Also King writing Dick without Seeley is a bit concerning. 




> Shooting him in the head was the least of Ric's issues. Its everything that came after. Which King doesn't seem to be a fan of anymore then anyone else.


Taking a character you weren't writing and completely derailing their own story and book for some shock value in another title is all on King, especially since he had no clear plan with how he wanted it all to go afterwards. That kind of stuff should never be looked over regardless of what came after. Crap like that is what Dick's character has been plagued with since the New 52. Constantly being jerked around with no consistent direction.

----------


## Restingvoice

Sounds like one of those one-shots in an anthology thing they like doing lately

----------


## Claude

> After the last time King wrote Grayson, I'd rather not, its proven Seeley was criminally underrated on their Grayson run


Nah, I can't get behind that - I like Seeley, and I like Seeley's run on "Nightwing", but I think character took a real downgrade in complexity, maturity and competence in that book compared to when things were running smoothly on "Grayson".

We don't, of course, know that Seeley _isn't_ involved....

----------


## CPSparkles

> Tom King and Mikel Janín are working on something Grayson related:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B5kraCFh...=1jmr9fkvptql1
> 
> So, does that mean Ric is finally done?


I thought he moved off batman cos his schedule was too busy but keeps announcing new projects did something fall through?

I don't want this. Grayson I now believe was a lot down to Seeley.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Nah, I can't get behind that - I like Seeley, and I like Seeley's run on "Nightwing", but I think character took a real downgrade in complexity, maturity and competence in that book compared to when things were running smoothly on "Grayson".
> 
> We don't, of course, know that Seeley _isn't_ involved....


King's writing of Grayson is batman is more than ample evidence to support what @Denric posted.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Shooting him in the head was the least of Ric's issues. Its everything that came after. Which King doesn't seem to be a fan of anymore then anyone else.


King has enough sway within the bat office and with DC that he could have stopped the Ric crap going as far as it did. If Lobdell was able to prolong it then King sure as hell could have prevented it or lessened the harm .

----------


## CPSparkles

Speaking of Grayson




https://twitter.com/JarrulusX

----------


## Ascended

> Shooting him in the head was the least of Ric's issues. Its everything that came after. Which King doesn't seem to be a fan of anymore then anyone else.


Oh, I got no issue with King wanting to shoot Dick. The way DC has set the rules, Dick is first and foremost part of the Bat books, and his solo stuff comes in a distant second. King was writing Batman, so his priority was Bruce (as it should be) and he wanted to put Bruce through the wringer. Taking one of Bruce's most important (and capable) supporting characters off the board is a viable plot choice (we can debate whether it's a "good" one, but it's been a viable tool in fiction since fiction was invented). So I don't blame King for wanting to do it. It's DC who treat Dick like a supporting character, King's just doing his job, using the structure his bosses have given him.

And as I understand it King just wanted Dick off the board so Bruce couldn't lean on him; he didn't pitch in any real ideas for what happened to Dick afterwards (he wasn't writing Nightwing, so that's fine, that wasn't his job). Getting Dick out of Gotham could've been accomplished in a billion ways, and it's not like a head wound is enough to keep a hero out of the action if the writer wants it to play that way (see body-cast-Batman in Snyder's JL, etc). So I blame DC for giving the green light to Ric. I don't know who exactly is responsible for agreeing to this train wreck, so I put blame on whoever's the main editor of the Bat office (I forget the name) and the higher level administrators like Didio and Lee, because in business sh*t should flow uphill (as should praise). 

What I meant when I said I dont want "new" King is that I just haven't enjoyed Dick's appearances in King's Batman as much as I enjoyed Grayson. I think Grayson had a level of character nuance and depth that we haven't seen from King since. And maybe that's just King not putting as much work into a supporting character or maybe that deeper understanding was all Seely (which a lot of people believe), I don't know. But if King is gonna write Dick, then I want his best effort and we've seen what that looks like (with help, yes, but still).

----------


## DragonPiece

I'm guessing the grayson thing has to just be for a annual or something rgiht? Bendis has teased Mikel Janin joining his legion run for a few issues and I think jurgens is going to be on nightwing for a while.

----------


## byrd156

Has anything changed with Dick? I've barely been paying attention to DC for the past few months, hard to post when nothing has gotten better.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Has anything changed with Dick? I've barely been paying attention to DC for the past few months, hard to post when nothing has gotten better.


He has 2x the memory loss now

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh yeah, he's brainwashed to think that he's always a Talon and as a Talon he killed Bruce Wayne during Court of Owls as Cobb's backup... which doesn't really make sense since even in Bludhaven he can just see the news and Bruce is alive? Or I misread that part of the spoilers? Whatever. I don't care. They already used the wrong continuity for how Dick's parent's died I'm not gonna care about that part.

----------


## OBrianTallent

starting with the "ric" business and with the upcoming 5G rumors flying around and seeming to have some semblance of credibility, I have lost almost all interest in DC and even worse any faith that they will do right by their characters and their readers.  I haven't bought Nightwing in I can't remember how long, but may pick up the King/Janin issue if it recalls back to Grayson.

----------


## CPSparkles

Bruce, Dick and Selina




https://drawing-cookie.tumblr.com



The main robins +Cass




https://kaylabeemarie.tumblr.com

----------


## CPSparkles

> Oh, I got no issue with King wanting to shoot Dick. The way DC has set the rules, Dick is first and foremost part of the Bat books, and his solo stuff comes in a distant second. King was writing Batman, so his priority was Bruce (as it should be) and he wanted to put Bruce through the wringer. Taking one of Bruce's most important (and capable) supporting characters off the board is a viable plot choice (we can debate whether it's a "good" one, but it's been a viable tool in fiction since fiction was invented). So I don't blame King for wanting to do it. It's DC who treat Dick like a supporting character, King's just doing his job, using the structure his bosses have given him.
> 
> And as I understand it King just wanted Dick off the board so Bruce couldn't lean on him; he didn't pitch in any real ideas for what happened to Dick afterwards (he wasn't writing Nightwing, so that's fine, that wasn't his job). Getting Dick out of Gotham could've been accomplished in a billion ways, and it's not like a head wound is enough to keep a hero out of the action if the writer wants it to play that way (see body-cast-Batman in Snyder's JL, etc). So I blame DC for giving the green light to Ric. I don't know who exactly is responsible for agreeing to this train wreck, so I put blame on whoever's the main editor of the Bat office (I forget the name) and the higher level administrators like Didio and Lee, because in business sh*t should flow uphill (as should praise). 
> 
> What I meant when I said I dont want "new" King is that I just haven't enjoyed Dick's appearances in King's Batman as much as I enjoyed Grayson. I think Grayson had a level of character nuance and depth that we haven't seen from King since. And maybe that's just King not putting as much work into a supporting character or maybe that deeper understanding was all Seely (which a lot of people believe), I don't know. But if King is gonna write Dick, then I want his best effort and we've seen what that looks like (with help, yes, but still).


I blame King for Ric. King's run never set up Dick being that important to Bruce. Contrary to that King had batman refer to the Robins as soliders and had Alfred claim that in all the years that Dick has been with Bruce He never had any happiness. He downplayed Dick's role on the one hand yet used him for angst because he knows that in reality the important role that Dick Grayson plays in the Batman story.

He knew that in the narrative and in the readers mind we associate important to Batman to Dick and Alfred. Those are the ones at the heart of the mythos so he sacrificed them for shock.

A writer that can make a claim as bold as Bruce hasn't smiled since he was 10 till the day he was supposed to marry Selina. A writer that brought back Clayface without explanation and who has hand waved so many gaping plot holes in his run didn't have to derail a character that he claims to care for just to advance another's story.

The carelessness and ease with which he derailed Nightwing is worrying. Not to mention that he cares so little for what makes sense that he has Ti m Drake somehow make it back [take a break from YJ] when the character is lost in the Multiverse trying to find his way home.

If in the runup to the KGB shooting Dick had been shown to be important to Batman I might have been able to easier swallow/buy the shooting of such an important support system.

IIt wasn't necessary. Why not shoot Selina?

The farce over the artist for the proposal issue shows how much power King has behind the scenes. He could have fought for Dick knowing that it was his story that derailed the character but he didn't.

----------


## Schumiac

> Taking a character you weren't writing and completely derailing their own story and book for some shock value in another title is all on King, especially since he had no clear plan with how he wanted it all to go afterwards. That kind of stuff should never be looked over regardless of what came after. Crap like that is what Dick's character has been plagued with since the New 52. Constantly being jerked around with no consistent direction.



If I am a writer and given freedom to do whatever I want, chances are I would do it. King didn't mean for the headshot to be permanent, he just needed to render a big emotional blow to the character he was writing and this was one of the ways. He even meant for it to be fixed immediately if DC wanted. DC didn't want it. DC made the decision to allow a writer to walk all over another writer who had plans for the character and book he was writing for, because for them King is their special snowflake and can do anything he wants.  Then they allowed Ric to last this long because a writer who had absolute zero interest in writing the story insisted it would be a good story and route for the character. All of it was extremely disrespectful and says a lot about how Dc has zero idea about what to do with Nightwing and how little value they give him. I blame DC for it though. If you let your kids play with something they shouldn't and they end up breaking it, you as the parent are the real one to blame, after all. 

Having said all that, King's Batman is enough for me to want him stay the hell away from Nightwing at this point. If I could, I would also save Batman from him. My impression is King in general doesn't have respect for the characters he is writing and their history etc, he just wants to do grand changes in hopes he will leave a mark for a while and free reign to write his fanfiction romance, all the while trying to sound deep so his work will be assumed to be complex and having some kind of literary value that is above the level of a comic book lol. I could care less for that kind of writing approach. We need a writer that knows Nightwing and values him and is actually enthusiastic about writing for the character because they love the character. And we need DC to leave that person be to write their stories.

----------


## Ansa

Was Dick getting shot affecting Bruce ever brought up again after Bruce broke Kgbeast's neck? In my memory he was back to only sobbing about Bane and Selina pretty quickly. And since "bringing Batman to his lowest" turned out to be bullshit anyway, did he really need to shoot Dick?

If only Selina matters and the Robins are only soldiers, why should readers care that Dick got shot, Bruce punched Tim and Damian got kidnapped? How are those moments supposed to feel important if they don't mean anything to Bruce? Yeah, punching Tim turned out to be part of a plan, but not mentioning it for 10 issues and then handwaving it away was pretty underwhelming. Bruce risking Damian's life for his plan to work had close to no emotional impact either, because Bruce didn't seem to care one bit. Killing Alfred felt hollow, because he didn't have an important role in King's run.
The only reasons those moments had any impact was because they showed how terrible King's run had become, not because they were well written or meaningful.

----------


## Godlike13

See im not interested in a super fan writer that kisses the characters ass. IMO Nightwing needs a writer with contemporary fresh ideas and a relevant voice. Personally my pick is Priest cause he has a harsh and honest view on the character. Im not saying that Kings the guys, but ill still take King over these out of touch old guys like Lobdell and Jurgans who just lazily go through the motions with tired ideas and factory driven techniques. Beggars can't be choosers here. The character has literally nothing going for him right now in comics. So if King and Janin are doing something Grayson, ill take it.

----------


## Schumiac

Doesn't need to be a superfan who kisses the characters ass, not what I meant at all. But does need to be someone who has an actual interest in the character and knowledge of him and isn't there just for the paycheck and so phoning it in.

----------


## Godlike13

> Was Dick getting shot affecting Bruce ever brought up again after Bruce broke Kgbeast's neck? In my memory he was back to only sobbing about Bane and Selina pretty quickly. And since "bringing Batman to his lowest" turned out to be bullshit anyway, did he really need to shoot Dick?
> 
> If only Selina matters and the Robins are only soldiers, why should readers care that Dick got shot, Bruce punched Tim and Damian got kidnapped? How are those moments supposed to feel important if they don't mean anything to Bruce? Yeah, punching Tim turned out to be part of a plan, but not mentioning it for 10 issues and then handwaving it away was pretty underwhelming. Bruce risking Damian's life for his plan to work had close to no emotional impact either, because Bruce didn't seem to care one bit. Killing Alfred felt hollow, because he didn't have an important role in King's run.
> The only reasons those moments had any impact was because they showed how terrible King's run had become, not because they were well written or meaningful.


Despite starting the chain of events that lead to it, King doesn't want to touch Ric with a 10ft pole just like every other writer. Which is frusting cause King should bare some responsibility. At the same time though i don't think King has as much power as some of you are making it seem. If rumors are to be believed even, Harras isn't a fan while at the same time Lobdell is his buddy.

----------


## Ansa

> Despite starting the chain of events that lead to it, King doesn't want to touch Ric with a 10ft pole just like every other writer. Which is frusting cause King should bare some responsibility. At the same time though i don't think King has as much power as some of you are making it seem. If rumors are to be believed even, Harras isn't a fan while at the same time Lobdell is his buddy.


He had enough power to get his own editor fired and to derail the plans for the Nightwing and Titans book by having Dick shot. And instead of leaving Batman for good because reception and sales after the wedding debacle didn't recover he still gets to write his Batman/Catwoman book. Harras actually looking at his run and not liking it seems to be a rather recent developement. Editorial has been asleep at the wheel since mid 2018, I wouldn't be suprised if no one paid much attention to what the big writers were doing. Snyder, King and Bendis all did their own thing for months and only now editorial tries to put some things back in order again. I don't think King is allmighty at DC, but if he had pushed to have Dick back as Nightwing for his run he would have gotten him. But Dick is just a prop in this run, as are all the other Robins, and so he didn't do anything.

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

I can't see how "just doing his job" is any excuse for King. The Nightwing thing isn't the one spot on an otherwise impeccable record of good stewardship and sound common sense. King appears unapologetically to hold to the opinion that his glorious vision trumps all other concerns.

I will agree with everyone who's said that the editors are a pack of fools, however.

----------


## Godlike13

I don't know if derailing Nightwing and Titans is a testament to his power, but more a result of how insignificant Nightwing and Titans is to the comic division. I don't buy that King could have stepped in and go "hey, i know you guys decided to run with this, but what your buddy Lobdell is doing has been shit. So im gonna undo it now.". After he shot Dick i think it was out of his hands. Which is bullshit, don't get me wrong. Cause to do something like that and then just wash your hand of it is frustrating to say the least. Especially when what others then did with it was such terrible shit. But here is the the thing, no one has stepped in with Ric for 2 years now. Which is crazy given how usually Nightwing can't even fart uninterrupted. Not with Ric though. Despite all time lows Ric is going to out last Grayson. Ric and his creators are oddly protected.

----------


## Digifiend

> The main robins +Cass
> 
> 
> 
> https://kaylabeemarie.tumblr.com


Nice touch with those numbers - the last two digits of their debut years. That's the only way I could tell that was Cass actually - she doesn't usually wear pink dresses and ponytails!




> Oh yeah, he's brainwashed to think that he's always a Talon and as a Talon he killed Bruce Wayne during Court of Owls as Cobb's backup... which doesn't really make sense since even in Bludhaven he can just see the news and Bruce is alive? Or I misread that part of the spoilers? Whatever. I don't care. They already used the wrong continuity for how Dick's parent's died I'm not gonna care about that part.


You mean it didn't match New 52? The current stuff seems to be a direct sequel to the first arc of the New 52 Nightwing series.

----------


## Schumiac

I dont think they are protected. DC just has no idea what to do with Dick right now in light of what is going on in Batman universe so they are just holding onto Ric, at least till the Bane debacle in Batman ends and Batman universe as a whole goes into rebuild mode.He will probably return at some point as part of that "things going back to normal" routine. And as Ric is simply useless and basically a sidekick to wanna-be amateur Nightwings running around in his old costumes there is absolutely nothing any outside writer can do with him or want with him. So we are stuck with Ric in our isolated corner till Bat office decides Dick's presence as his real self is no longer an inconvenience to their larger tale and plans...

Tbh, part of me is glad Dick/Nightwing had nothing to do with the suckfest that was City of Bane and got to sit it out. I just wish Ric wasnt so boring and whiny though.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nice touch with those numbers - the last two digits of their debut years. That's the only way I could tell that was Cass actually - she doesn't usually wear pink dresses and ponytails!
> 
> You mean it didn't match New 52? The current stuff seems to be a direct sequel to the first arc of the New 52 Nightwing series.


The origin? They're using ASBAR where his parents got shot instead of acid on the trapeze rope

----------


## Badou

> If I am a writer and given freedom to do whatever I want, chances are I would do it. King didn't mean for the headshot to be permanent, he just needed to render a big emotional blow to the character he was writing and this was one of the ways. He even meant for it to be fixed immediately if DC wanted. DC didn't want it. DC made the decision to allow a writer to walk all over another writer who had plans for the character and book he was writing for, because for them King is their special snowflake and can do anything he wants.  Then they allowed Ric to last this long because a writer who had absolute zero interest in writing the story insisted it would be a good story and route for the character. All of it was extremely disrespectful and says a lot about how Dc has zero idea about what to do with Nightwing and how little value they give him. I blame DC for it though. If you let your kids play with something they shouldn't and they end up breaking it, you as the parent are the real one to blame, after all.


I disagree completely. King has the pull at DC to shoot Dick in the head and even kill Alfred. If he wanted to he could have easily followed up this story he set up by writing it in his own Batman title. There was nothing stopping him, but he didn't do that. King shot Dick in the head and then completely ignored the character afterwards. He didn't show the character once. That isn't on editorial, but on King. It isn't like he didn't have room given how dragged out his Batman book became after issue #50. 

He could have taken control of the situation by writing it in his own Batman book and then letting the Nightwing and Titans book take reference from him, but he didn't care. Dick's fallout wasn't what he was concerned with. Instead of just giving editorial a pitch about Tim as Nightwing and then just ignoring Ric when they did that instead he could have had a bigger plan in place from the start when he shot him in the head instead of just putting it all on editorial. He only wanted to shoot Dick not because he had a story planned out for Dick, but because he wanted to throw Dick under the bus for Bruce's development and because of his lack of planning that lead to over 18 months of Ric now. 

King should have known better too given how the Grayson series even came about. Johns did the same fucking thing. He exposed Dick's ID to the world for shock value after dragging his character into that Forever Evil event completely derailing his own title and direction, and had zero plan or interest in following any of that up. Just passed it along to editorial, but somehow the stars aligned and we got the Grayson series. That was kind of an accident and we can't expect that to happen every time Dick gets his direction messed with like that. King being involved in that before would make you think he would have taken more care with doing things for shock value and having no plan or interest in following them up.

----------


## Badou

The latest Batman issue is a good example of what I was talking about. It was basically a recap of King's run going through all the big moments in his Batman series mostly regarding Thomas' history. Him deciding to shoot Dick in the head and kill him with KGBeast didn't make the cut of important moments. Even though it derailed Dick's character for over 18 months now that moment turned out to be such an insignificant thing in King's Batman story where King can just ignore it and nothing from his story changes. King could have had that moment mean a lot more in his Batman run and fleshed it out, but he chose not to. That is on him and not editorial.

----------


## Fergus

DC is trash. wARNING deathstroke spoilers


*spoilers:*
 Just saw a panel from Deathstroke 50 Damian shoots Dick in the head 


*end of spoilers*

----------


## Ansa

> DC is trash. wARNING deathstroke spoilers
> 
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Just saw a panel from Deathstroke 50 Damian shoots Dick in the head 
> 
> 
> *end of spoilers*


I haven't read much Deathstroke, but I think this takes place in a different universe. I'm still not a fan of how Priest writes Damian though.

----------


## Godlike13

*spoilers:*
It’s a different reality. Where Deathstroke brain washed Wonder Woman and presumably Damian to be his new family 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

The only Deathstroke I've read was "Deathstroke: Arkham," but honestly it felt like a parody of (or protest against), more than a participant in, the Kingverse, with all is deflated males and manipulative shock episodes.

If Priest had gotten the next Batman run, I'd already be subscribed.

----------


## Digifiend

> King should have known better too given how the Grayson series even came about. Johns did the same fucking thing. He exposed Dick's ID to the world for shock value after dragging his character into that Forever Evil event completely derailing his own title and direction, and had zero plan or interest in following any of that up. Just passed it along to editorial, but somehow the stars aligned and we got the Grayson series. That was kind of an accident and we can't expect that to happen every time Dick gets his direction messed with like that. King being involved in that before would make you think he would have taken more care with doing things for shock value and having no plan or interest in following them up.


He was outed? Did Spyral make the world forget then? I know Dick faked his death, but that wouldn't have restored his secret identity when he went back to being Nightwing in Rebirth.




> The origin? They're using ASBAR where his parents got shot instead of acid on the trapeze rope


That's weird, since William Cobb, the Talon who brainwashed Dick last issue, was introduced in that first New 52 arc - if the old origin is back, then that should've excised the whole Court of Owls connection to the circus - which means Cobb's own origin has been erased. Looks like an editor dropped the ball here.

----------


## Badou

> He was outed? Did Spyral make the world forget then? I know Dick faked his death, but that wouldn't have restored his secret identity when he went back to being Nightwing in Rebirth.


In the Forever Evil event the Crime Syndicate captured and unmasked Nightwing live on TV. Then Grid took over every electronic device on Earth and rebroadcast that moment over and over again for days including news articles about Dick's being in the circus and his parents dying. It is the most extensive "unmasking" of a hero I've ever seen. Even Lex Luthor figured out Batman was Bruce from it in the event. 

Then it was basically all ignored. It had zero effect on Bruce or any other DC hero and Johns never followed any of this up. They just shoved Dick into the Grayson series to get him out of the way and came up with the idea of Dick faking his death for some reason. Even though him faking his death was never set up in the Forever Evil event and his unmasking was never brought up again. Even in the Grayson series it was barely mentioned. How DC tricked people into thinking Dick "dying" was the bigger story than his unmasking still confounds me. 

When Rebirth was scheduled to happen they decided to hand wave away the whole unmasking story and reset Dick's character. They said Spyral had a secret spy satellite that could erase the memories of everyone on Earth about Dick's ID being exposed except for the people Dick still wanted to know, like the Batman family, and that is how they undid the story before Rebirth happened.

----------


## Schumiac

> I disagree completely. King has the pull at DC to shoot Dick in the head and even kill Alfred. If he wanted to he could have easily followed up this story he set up by writing it in his own Batman title. There was nothing stopping him, but he didn't do that. King shot Dick in the head and then completely ignored the character afterwards. He didn't show the character once. That isn't on editorial, but on King. It isn't like he didn't have room given how dragged out his Batman book became after issue #50. 
> 
> He could have taken control of the situation by writing it in his own Batman book and then letting the Nightwing and Titans book take reference from him, but he didn't care. Dick's fallout wasn't what he was concerned with. Instead of just giving editorial a pitch about Tim as Nightwing and then just ignoring Ric when they did that instead he could have had a bigger plan in place from the start when he shot him in the head instead of just putting it all on editorial. He only wanted to shoot Dick not because he had a story planned out for Dick, but because he wanted to throw Dick under the bus for Bruce's development and because of his lack of planning that lead to over 18 months of Ric now. 
> 
> King should have known better too given how the Grayson series even came about. Johns did the same fucking thing. He exposed Dick's ID to the world for shock value after dragging his character into that Forever Evil event completely derailing his own title and direction, and had zero plan or interest in following any of that up. Just passed it along to editorial, but somehow the stars aligned and we got the Grayson series. That was kind of an accident and we can't expect that to happen every time Dick gets his direction messed with like that. King being involved in that before would make you think he would have taken more care with doing things for shock value and having no plan or interest in following them up.


See, that's the thing though. NONE of the writers  could do any of that to Dick if DC editorial didn't let them. King only cared for the shock-value and got what he wanted. Yes. And  he was done. What DC did with Nightwing afterwards was up to them.  It is not like DC is trying to fix things with Nightwing and King is using his pull to stop them. He is not in the equation anymore, the ongoing Ric debacle is DC's own doing. They are the ones who OKed Lobdell's horrid idea (despite the fact he wasn't even going to write it himself). They are the ones who are still keeping Ric around (which lead to Bendis needing to sub Huntress for Nightwing in his, because he couldn't use Dick.).As long as DC editorial's treatment of Nightwing doesn't change this will keep happening. If it isn't King, it will be someone else who will derail the character and do with him whatever they want and then discard him. And his ongoing will keep getting hijacked for "more important" stories. This is why ultimately the problem for me is the DC editorial and the blame goes to them. Doesn't mean I am not bothered at the disrespect writers show their colleagues and the character. I am. It is why I don't want King writing Nightwing, don't care if he is a "big name" or not, his style of "no care for characters, just want to be shocking" writing is not something I like or am impressed with..

----------


## Schumiac

> DC is trash. wARNING deathstroke spoilers
> 
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Just saw a panel from Deathstroke 50 Damian shoots Dick in the head 
> 
> 
> *end of spoilers*


ugh Dc. Wonder if it is an "inside" joke now as they do seem to get a kick out of angry fan reactions.

----------


## Restingvoice

> He was outed? Did Spyral make the world forget then? I know Dick faked his death, but that wouldn't have restored his secret identity when he went back to being Nightwing in Rebirth.
> 
> That's weird, since William Cobb, the Talon who brainwashed Dick last issue, was introduced in that first New 52 arc - if the old origin is back, then that should've excised the whole Court of Owls connection to the circus - which means Cobb's own origin has been erased. Looks like an editor dropped the ball here.


The acid on the rope has always been the cause of death. It's never changed. New 52 only added The Court element and aging Dick up to 16. As of Rebirth, he's back to a kid again when he started living in the Manor, but The Court element stays. This annual is the first time they use the shooting in ASBAR instead of the classic acid.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing’s Editors are out to launch. They have been even before Ric.

Nightwing has to be a sweet gig to work on. There’s no standards, all you have to do is poop out whatever lazy crap you can manage until someone else comes along to tell them to do something else. I think I said this before, Jurgan’s using the ASBAR’s origin, and his take on Cobb and the Court in general, just seems a result of him doing quick google searches for his research lol. And of course the editors don’t care if it matches or is accurate, cause they are just phoning it in too. They are just there to make sure something gets to print. Whether it’s even decent or even accurate, that shit doesn’t matter to them. Hell they don’t even give a shit about reception. It’s just about getting anything to print, and keeping the appearance they are doing something. 

Now I’m obviously just a pissed off Nightwing fan, but honestly think the people on the Nightwing book are one of the worst teams in the business. Just a bunch of drones on a factory line going through the motions. And I could be wrong, cause what do I know. I’m just a one of the suckers they want to pay money to read this insultingly poor crap every month. But I’m not sure what is worse, that are lazy and that’s why their work sucks, or they are actually working hard and this is just what they are able to produce. To me going with they are lazy seems less mean.

----------


## Badou

> See, that's the thing though. NONE of the writers  could do any of that to Dick if DC editorial didn't let them. King only cared for the shock-value and got what he wanted. Yes. And  he was done. What DC did with Nightwing afterwards was up to them.  It is not like DC is trying to fix things with Nightwing and King is using his pull to stop them. He is not in the equation anymore, the ongoing Ric debacle is DC's own doing. They are the ones who OKed Lobdell's horrid idea (despite the fact he wasn't even going to write it himself). They are the ones who are still keeping Ric around (which lead to Bendis needing to sub Huntress for Nightwing in his, because he couldn't use Dick.).As long as DC editorial's treatment of Nightwing doesn't change this will keep happening. If it isn't King, it will be someone else who will derail the character and do with him whatever they want and then discard him. And his ongoing will keep getting hijacked for "more important" stories. This is why ultimately the problem for me is the DC editorial and the blame goes to them. Doesn't mean I am not bothered at the disrespect writers show their colleagues and the character. I am. It is why I don't want King writing Nightwing, don't care if he is a "big name" or not, his style of "no care for characters, just want to be shocking" writing is not something I like or am impressed with..


But the main reason Ric has gone on as long as it has is to facilitate King's Batman story. King shot Dick for shock value and then wanted the character out of the way to drive Bruce into madness for his whole story post the failed wedding issue as part of Bane's plan. That is the reason they isolated Dick to Bludhaven and wrote him out of all the ongoing Batman stories by giving him amnesia. Sure, Lobdell stupidly campaigned to have the Ric story last longer then bailed after one arc, but in the end King pretty much just ignored everything that happened with Dick and made his whole reason for shooting him in the first place kind of irrelevant. You could completely remove the Dick getting shot by KGBeast story from King's run and it wouldn't read any differently because Dick's character was completely ignored in the dozens of issues after the shooting. 




> See im not interested in a super fan writer that kisses the characters ass. IMO Nightwing needs a writer with contemporary fresh ideas and a relevant voice. Personally my pick is Priest cause he has a harsh and honest view on the character. Im not saying that Kings the guys, but ill still take King over these out of touch old guys like Lobdell and Jurgans who just lazily go through the motions with tired ideas and factory driven techniques. Beggars can't be choosers here. The character has literally nothing going for him right now in comics. So if King and Janin are doing something Grayson, ill take it.


Honestly, give me the super fan that kisses the character's ass for a run. It would be something different. Give me some stories where Dick is a badass and doing amazing things and is actually enjoying being a hero. I'm so sick of writers coming on and deciding to tear down the character and then build him back up to where the character started from and calling that development. It's exhausting and repetitive. I feel like nearly every Nightwing story is this. Part of what made the Grayson series so good is that Dick actually got to be a fucking badass for a change and felt capable. It wasn't them just beating down the character over and over and having him struggle through every encounter. Even though I wouldn't say no to a Priest he would probably do the exact same thing with beating down the character that we've read so many times before. 

Then again Higgins is the biggest Nightwing fan and his whole run was basically seeing how much he could torture the character and how miserable he could make him. So I guess in the end it won't matter.

----------


## Schumiac

> Honestly, give me the super fan that kisses the character's ass for a run. It would be something different. Give me some stories where Dick is a badass and doing amazing things and is actually enjoying being a hero. I'm so sick of writers coming on and deciding to tear down the character and then build him back up to where the character started from and calling that development. It's exhausting and repetitive. I feel like nearly every Nightwing story is this. Part of what made the Grayson series so good is that Dick actually got to be a fucking badass for a change and felt capable. It wasn't them just beating down the character over and over and having him struggle through every encounter. Even though I wouldn't say no to a Priest he would probably do the exact same thing with beating down the character that we've read so many times before. 
> 
> Then again Higgins is the biggest Nightwing fan and his whole run was basically seeing how much he could torture the character and how miserable he could make him. So I guess in the end it won't matter.


I think the "break down the character" thing is one of the biggest problems. Don't know why so many writers want to torture and take the character they are given to their absolute lowest, with plans to rebuild. I am guessing it is this obsession with "leaving a mark" on the character, which just doesnt work out as they plan. For one, their time on the book is limited and when they take forever to take the character down (which they do) it turns the readers away from the title. Second, even if readership persevered through the "torture the character" crap, the editorial usually has some other stuff going on and intervene on their on-going story and/or take them off the title before they can get to the "rebuild" phase. Why is it just not enough for writers to write enjoyable, fun adventures for the characters I will never know. they can be quite memorable too if done right. You don't need angst and depression and torture and all doom and gloom.  And if you absolutely have to do the break down thing dont spend 20-30 issues doing it. Gee.

----------


## Fergus

> But the main reason Ric has gone on as long as it has is to facilitate King's Batman story. King shot Dick for shock value and then wanted the character out of the way to drive Bruce into madness for his whole story post the failed wedding issue as part of Bane's plan. That is the reason they isolated Dick to Bludhaven and wrote him out of all the ongoing Batman stories by giving him amnesia. Sure, Lobdell stupidly campaigned to have the Ric story last longer then bailed after one arc, but in the end* King pretty much just ignored everything that happened with Dick and made his whole reason for shooting him in the first place kind of irrelevant. You could completely remove the Dick getting shot by KGBeast story from King's run and it wouldn't read any differently because Dick's character was completely ignored in the dozens of issues after the shooting. 
> 
> *


Disagree on this. Shooting Dick was for shock and to bench him. It was never about breaking Bruce [Bane thought it would] King made that clear when he wrote that Bruce hadn't smiled since the day his folks died.

If Bruce never had a moment of happiness in all the decades he raised, worked with and lived with Dick then him getting shot is about as impactful as a co-worker getting shot. Bruce reacted and then moved on. The Annual takes care of why that plot was ignored. 

It was just a thing that happened that explains why there was no one mature, competent and respected enough who could take command and make sure things didn't get as bad and stupid as they did.

King needed all the grown ups gone so he could party and he burned down the house

----------


## Ascended

> See, that's the thing though. NONE of the writers  could do any of that to Dick if DC editorial didn't let them.


Exactly. 

Even the best writer is going to come up with a bad idea every now and then. It's editorial's job to say "no" when that happens. Hell, that's why there are editors in the first place; it's not just checking grammar. King wanted to mess with Bruce by shooting Dick, but it's his editors who allowed him to write that story, allowed it to upend Percy's plans, and gave the green light to this Ric nonsense rather than spin the story a different way (or handwave it away with a "six months later" caption). 

Do you know what I would have said if I had been King's editor? I'd have said no. Because Nightwing has a solo title and its writer has plans already. It's King's editors said yes. 

The only way this isn't on the editors is if they've been given their marching orders from above.

Actually, scratch that. We can probably blame DC's whole corporate culture for this. That's what allows writers to have more control than they should, that's what allows viable properties to be shelved and sabotaged instead of invested in, etc.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'd say yes because Bane hiring The Beast to shoot Dick makes sense for what he's trying to do, but the Nightwing and Titans series will continue with stories either set after he recovered in the future or a collection of stories set in the past since it won't wreck ongoing continuity.

Also, having him recover at the tail end of Sad Batman Parade or whatever that arc is called right before The City of Bane would be enough since by that time the goal of having Sad Batman is fulfilled, and his presence with the Batfam team won't change a thing. They're still gonna be trounced by Thomas and brainwashed by Pirate, and I still won't read it, but at least I still have Nightwing in Nightwing comic... assuming the story's good.

----------


## Godlike13

Titans sucked and Dick needed to be pulled away from Abnett. They just needed to better coordinate with his current creators to find a story they would want to tell with it, and if not then go out and find other creators to pitch who maybe has a story. But no, and this is why the current editorial is bad, when they couldn't make it work for the guy on the book they just threw it to the worst performing guys in the office cause they can do something fast.

----------


## Drako



----------


## millernumber1

Random question - how many issues has Dick had as Nightwing, if you add them all together? Asking because I want Nicola Scott to use her Nightwing cover similar to the Tec, Action, and Wonder Woman covers.  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

Ballpark guess is like 250+.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 


Ooh nice colors. Glowy

----------


## Badou

> Random question - how many issues has Dick had as Nightwing, if you add them all together? Asking because I want Nicola Scott to use her Nightwing cover similar to the Tec, Action, and Wonder Woman covers.


His 1996-2009 Nightwing run had 153 issues. 
His New 52 2011-2014 run had 30 issues. 
His Rebirth 2016-2019 run is at 66 issues. 

So we are at 249 issues. This isn't counting the original pre 1996 mini series or the special Nightwing issues like Nightwing 1000000 or Annuals. Also not including the Grayson series. 

A bit unfortunate that we hit issue #250 during this Ric Grayson story. :/

----------


## Restingvoice

What's his Robin solo/feature series called in the 40s/60s? Something Star... kinda like All-Star Comics. Was he the only main character in that series, or is it an anthology? As in, can we count that?

Grayson has 20, was it? Plus 3 annuals? Yes. 23.

----------


## Rac7d*

I love the love DCuniverse gives him, I will stay lloyal to them until they dont

----------


## WonderNight

> I love the love DCuniverse gives him, I will stay lloyal to them until they dont


the DC universe gives him love because he's bringing in the money. This is what happens when he's not being treated as a second class hero.

----------


## Jackalope89

Well, Geoff Johns does run the media side of DC, so.

----------


## Ascended

> the DC universe gives him love because he's bringing in the money. This is what happens when he's not being treated as a second class hero.


Damn straight. 

Hey, weren't Didio and Johns rumored to be kinda-sorta feuding for a while? Is that still a thing? What're the odds of Johns getting "exiled" to Nightwing?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Robanker

> Damn straight. 
> 
> Hey, weren't Didio and Johns rumored to be kinda-sorta feuding for a while? Is that still a thing? What're the odds of Johns getting "exiled" to Nightwing?


I mean I'll take it. It's just depressing to watch such a great character get undermined by one empowered employee with a vendetta against him. I still think Fraction is the man for the job, though.

----------


## Godlike13

Johns doesn't have the time for monthlies anymore.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I don't know much about Fraction, but from what I do know of his history so far, wouldn't he just write Dick like a big joke? That's the opposite of what we need right now.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> What's his Robin solo/feature series called in the 40s/60s? Something Star... kinda like All-Star Comics. Was he the only main character in that series, or is it an anthology? As in, can we count that?
> 
> Grayson has 20, was it? Plus 3 annuals? Yes. 23.


Star-Spangled Comics.

Grayson was 20, with 3 annuals, and the Futures End tie-in (24 issues in total). Nightwing: The New Order also had 6 issues.

With Rebirth, Nightwing has had two annuals plus the 66 issues, as well as that Magilla Gorilla crossover issue (69 issues so far). New 52 was 30 issues, plus an Annual and #0 (so 32 issues). The original mini-series was 4 issues with a special issue (5 issues). The second series is of course the longest, with 153 regular issues, a #1000000 and a #1/2, as well as two annuals, and then The Flash Plus Nightwing #1, Nightwing Secret Files and Origins #1, the 80-page Giant, Nightwing: Target #1, the World at War tie-in, the Bloodborne tie-in, and the Nightwing/Boomerang #1 tie-in issue to Outsiders (in total, 164 issues). Then, there's the 4 issues of Nightwing/Huntress and two issues of Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle.

So excluding team books and Grayson (simply because the book is not titled Nightwing), as well as Elseworlds stories like New Order, it's 5+164+4+32+2+69, a total of 276 issues with Nightwing in the title starring Dick as Nightwing, of course.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I love the love DCuniverse gives him, I will stay lloyal to them until they dont


Until they bring a new Batman-starring content to DCUniverse then :P




> Damn straight. 
> 
> Hey, weren't Didio and Johns rumored to be kinda-sorta feuding for a while? Is that still a thing? What're the odds of Johns getting "exiled" to Nightwing?


He said he had to fight Didio to make Nightwing blue again. That's the only feud about Nightwing I know

----------


## Ascended

> I don't know much about Fraction, but from what I do know of his history so far, wouldn't he just write Dick like a big joke? That's the opposite of what we need right now.


Not necessarily. Fraction's Iron Man wasn't a joke title. He does seem to write a lot of weird books lately but that's not all he's capable of. He'd be a solid fit for Nightwing, I think, but there's no way Didio would put a writer like Fraction on a book like Nightwing. 

I mean, Didio probably wouldn't waste Johns on Nightwing either, even if they are at odds with each other, but one can hope.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> He said he had to fight Didio to make Nightwing blue again. That's the only feud about Nightwing I know


I didn't mean about Dick specifically. I've just heard rumors that there was a bit of a power struggle between them, fighting over the direction of the DCU. Rebirth was very much Johns' baby but once he lost status in the company (or whatever happened) a lot of plans and directions seemed to change pretty quick. 

But I don't know what their relationship is like, this is all just rumor. And kinda old rumor at that!

----------


## Godlike13

I wonder what being the fall guy for the JL bombing did to John's passion for comics, generally speaking. I mean if that happen to you would you love comics as much?

----------


## Fergus

> Star-Spangled Comics.
> 
> Grayson was 20, with 3 annuals, and the Futures End tie-in (24 issues in total). Nightwing: The New Order also had 6 issues.
> 
> With Rebirth, Nightwing has had two annuals plus the 66 issues, as well as that Magilla Gorilla crossover issue (69 issues so far). New 52 was 30 issues, plus an Annual and #0 (so 32 issues). The original mini-series was 4 issues with a special issue (5 issues). The second series is of course the longest, with 153 regular issues, a #1000000 and a #1/2, as well as two annuals, and then The Flash Plus Nightwing #1, Nightwing Secret Files and Origins #1, the 80-page Giant, Nightwing: Target #1, the World at War tie-in, the Bloodborne tie-in, and the Nightwing/Boomerang #1 tie-in issue to Outsiders (in total, 164 issues). Then, there's the 4 issues of Nightwing/Huntress and two issues of Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle.
> 
> So excluding team books and Grayson (simply because the book is not titled Nightwing), as well as Elseworlds stories like New Order, it's 5+164+4+32+2+69, a total of 276 issues with Nightwing in the title starring Dick as Nightwing, of course.


Interesting fact in the Golden Age Dick Grayson appeared in more comics than Batman

RobinDick had over 200 solo stories in the Star Spangled series and he was the main headliner though technically speaking it was an anthology but Dick was the 1st Robin to carry stories on his own and he had the most issues of Robin stand alone stories.

----------


## Fergus

> Random question - how many issues has Dick had as Nightwing, if you add them all together? Asking because I want Nicola Scott to use her Nightwing cover similar to the Tec, Action, and Wonder Woman covers.


I'm not a fan of this picture. I get the A**e shot is tongue in cheek but I'm starting to get sick of it.

----------


## Ascended

> I wonder what being the fall guy for the JL bombing did to John's passion for comics, generally speaking. I mean if that happen to you would you love comics as much?


I'm sure that anyone who goes from being a fan to working in the industry gets slapped hard by the reality of the business, and taking the blame for a movie's failure that you barely had anything to do with (John didn't get involved until that train wreck was too far gone for anyone to save) likely didn't make him very happy either. 

And that whole mess seems to have blown back on him in the comics too. He seems to have been kind of shoved aside, no longer the Golden Boy, seemingly not party to any of the big decisions. 

But he's still producing and working on tons of larger media adaptations and still writing a couple books for DC (even if he can't make deadlines). And I'm sure other companies would like to steal him, so whatever happened it doesn't seem to have ruined him on DC completely.

----------


## Restingvoice

Wait people blame Johns? I thought they blame Whedon?

----------


## Vordan

> I don't know much about Fraction, but from what I do know of his history so far, wouldn't he just write Dick like a big joke? That's the opposite of what we need right now.


Hes perfectly capable of writing serious stories. I recommend To Have And To Hold one of the last Peter/MJ stories before OMD hit. Not only is it a phenomenal book but it also showcases why so many people loved the Spider-Marriage. Fraction can totally do serious stories when he wants to. But honestly since hes broken into Hollywood I dont really expect him to take on any ongoing work he doesnt want to do.



> Wait people blame Johns? I thought they blame Whedon?


Zack Snyder fans blame Whedon and Johns. WB seems to have shifted some of the blame onto Johns, but they also either fired or pressured into leaving all the Snyder apologists within the company who kept giving him work, so its a mix. Johns still probably has some pull given hes a producer for Titans, is basically the show runner for Stargirl, and is writing a GLC script.

----------


## Ascended

> Wait people blame Johns? I thought they blame Whedon?


We don't really know what went down, but it seems that on the corporate level, Johns ended up being something of a scapegoat for WB. 

Fans will blame Whedon or Snyder or whoever, depending on their personal tastes, but from the stuff we've heard it seems like WB decided to blame Johns for a lot of what went wrong with the movies, presumably using stuff like the failure of Green Lantern to justify it and keep higher-paid idiots safe from being accountable for their choices. 

After JL failed, Johns got kicked off a lot of projects (or so I hear) and his influence in the publishing fell apart. Obviously he's involved with the DCU shows and he's still involved with the movies, but he lost his position as Chief Creative Officer and seems to have been demoted across the board. At one point he was the guy deciding where DC was going (creatively) in comics and in adaptations but now he seems to largely just be an adviser and the big decisions are out of his hands. 

I guess. Others have followed this all a lot closer than I have.

----------


## Roliver Queen

> Tom King and Mikel Janín are working on something Grayson related:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B5kraCFh...=1jmr9fkvptql1
> 
> So, does that mean Ric is finally done?


If I remember correctly, Tynion is  handling the restoration of Nightwing. Whatever King is doing, has to be some one off thing. 

My question is there gonna be a Nightwing and Batman crossover or something? Its nice that the book that caused all of this is rebuilding the character but what is Jurgens supposed to do with the book in the mean time?

----------


## Rac7d*

I wish they had used him for the crossover, they probably filmed to late

----------


## AmiMizuno

If they made a nightwing movie what Storyline  would be good?

Geoff Johns? Well they are allowing him to do the Green Lantern movie.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If I remember correctly, Tynion is  handling the restoration of Nightwing. Whatever King is doing, has to be some one off thing. 
> 
> My question is there gonna be a Nightwing and Batman crossover or something? Its nice that the book that caused all of this is rebuilding the character but what is Jurgens supposed to do with the book in the mean time?


The usual. Padding until they got the date for change and he'll make a story leading up to it. 
The latest solicitations already have him fighting Cobb so it's going there.

----------


## Ascended

> Its nice that the book that caused all of this is rebuilding the character but what is Jurgens supposed to do with the book in the mean time?


Eh, I feel like the Batman book being the title to fix Nightwing is just another sign that Nightwing is not allowed to have his own agency. Yeah, this mess started in Batman, but this isn't like a "You made the mess, you clean it up" situation. I mean, what are we saying here? Nightwing doesn't get to be fixed until Batman decides to do it? Is Dick the star of his own gods damn book or not? Don't we see the problem here? I'll be happy when Dick gets back to normal but this should be happening in his book, not someone else's. 




> If they made a nightwing movie what Storyline  would be good?


Depends on what kind of Nightwing they do, honestly. Would they do a street level Bat-Lite thing, or something closer to the Titans? 

Nightwing's NTT origin is a pretty solid story to tell. The source material gives you all kinds of stuff to pull from, including Deathstroke, science terrorists, betrayal, a love interest in a hot alien girl, and the story highlights Dick's leadership abilities and detective training. Lot of stuff for an adaptation to pull from. And it'd make the Bat connections very clear by showing us Dick's transition from Robin. But of course, we just got a version of this in the Titans streaming show. 

You could do Dick arriving in Bludhaven. A rough translation of Dixon's "war with Blockbuster" is a stupid-easy win. Audiences eat up this gritty street level stuff up, as Nolan Batman and Netflix Daredevil can attest. Tons of cool supporting characters, a proven archetype villain, and one of the weirdest low-key love interests in.....Clancy? the landlady who's face Dick somehow never manages to see. But this is also well walked territory and standing out would be a challenge, not to mention this approach invites even more direct comparisons to some of the most loved superhero work of the last 20 years.

The Grayson series could be adapted to include the (very marketable) Nightwing costume and name. A spy thriller that delves heavily into the weird facets of a superhuman world is a pretty great hook we've never really seen in movies (maybe Black Widow will hit this note, but if so it'll be the first one). And "superhero meets James Bond" is easy to sell.

I suppose a Nightwing film could ape Batman Beyond and do a "In the near future, Batman is gone and Nightwing becomes Gotham's new protector" thing. It'd be a quick way to bypass having to account for whatever the Batman films are doing and make Nightwing a more independent franchise. But it also cuts Dick off from any team-up movies or cameos. 

They could pull all the Court of Owls elements together and do something involving Cobb and Dick's childhood with the circus. A very lose adaptation of the early New52 or something. That'd be a solid way to approach a origin story; it puts far less emphasis on the Bat and uses a group of villains that haven't been overused yet. 

Morrison's opening story with Professor Pyg could be pretty great too. Keep Dick in the Nightwing suit of course. They probably wouldn't be allowed to use Damian but Pyg is a great villain who's already gotten a little screen time on Gotham and his circus parallels Dick's origin nicely.

Or they could go for something more like your typical 90's action movie and make the film "Nightwing's very frantic day" and do something like the "motorcycle death race" Percy wrote. Dump the basic exposition and origin within the first twenty minutes and then just go nuts and don't hit the brakes until the end.

----------


## Godlike13

> Eh, I feel like the Batman book being the title to fix Nightwing is just another sign that Nightwing is not allowed to have his own agency. Yeah, this mess started in Batman, but this isn't like a "You made the mess, you clean it up" situation. I mean, what are we saying here? Nightwing doesn't get to be fixed until Batman decides to do it? Is Dick the star of his own gods damn book or not? Don't we see the problem here? I'll be happy when Dick gets back to normal but this should be happening in his book, not someone else's.


They created a poor situation, and now that problem unfortunately feeds itself. Nightwing's numbers are worse then ever now, so for it to happened in Nightwing it would go unnoticed. They can either have Nightwing's current crap creators do it, in their current crap book that can't even crack the top 100 anymore, or they do it in Batman so some people at least maybe see it. 
Honestly the best thing would be to canceled Nightwing, and then bring him back in Batman leading to a new series relaunch with a new creative team and the works. But that probably isn't going to happen. They'll bring him back in Batman to get the eyes, and then will probably hand him back to Jurgans. So he can continue to bore everyone with his by the numbers dragged out shit.

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

> Honestly the best thing would be to canceled Nightwing, and then bring him back in Batman leading to a new series relaunch with a new creative team and the works. But that probably isn't going to happen.


That would be too reasonable for them.

They've gotten really good at breaking things they _could_ fix if they used their brains and acted quickly. Instead they stand around gaping like stupid little kids. By the time they set to work, major retcons or hard reboots are required... It gets old.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hey does he and Starfire even have a relationship? I mean are they even friends?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> That would be too reasonable for them.
> 
> They've gotten really good at breaking things they _could_ fix if they used their brains and acted quickly. Instead they stand around gaping like stupid little kids. By the time they set to work, major retcons or hard reboots are required... It gets old.


I feel a lot has to do with Dan. Almost every majority event is his baby. New 52 was his thing.

----------


## Valentonis

> If they made a nightwing movie what Storyline  would be good?
> 
> Geoff Johns? Well they are allowing him to do the Green Lantern movie.


I think the Spyral stuff would translate well on screen, just have Dick as Nightwing instead of Agent 37 and you're solid. They could also play it safe and go with some Bludhaven stuff, but they would have to do something really unique with it to differentiate Dick from the likes of Batman and Daredevil. In general, I think the scale and tone of Nightwing's adventures should be closer to say Spider-man than either of those two.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hey does he and Starfire even have a relationship? I mean are they even friends?


Mabey once every 2 years they interact, she leading s
Justice league team in space right now

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious what do you guys think about DC changing many titans relationships? I find this annoying. Their relationship was solid.THis can help lead to other things.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hey does he and Starfire even have a relationship? I mean are they even friends?


They're friends. Dick talked a lot about Damian to her, we found this out when Damian first formed his Teen Titans. He shares his then relationship with Shawn Tsang The Defacer to her as they team up to beat an enemy. She's supportive. Their romantic relationship was in the past and there are no hard feelings.  
They don't meet often on-page though, only on special occasions like that.

----------


## Roliver Queen

> They created a poor situation, and now that problem unfortunately feeds itself. Nightwing's numbers are worse then ever now, so for it to happened in Nightwing it would go unnoticed. They can either have Nightwing's current crap creators do it, in their current crap book that can't even crack the top 100 anymore, or they do it in Batman so some people at least maybe see it. 
> Honestly the best thing would be to canceled Nightwing, and then bring him back in Batman leading to a new series relaunch with a new creative team and the works. But that probably isn't going to happen. They'll bring him back in Batman to get the eyes, and then will probably hand him back to Jurgans. So he can continue to bore everyone with his by the numbers dragged out shit.


From a Story perspective I can see WHY they're having it done in Batman. Right now Gotham and Bruce are in the rebuilding phase so it makes sense to handle the Nightwing stuff. It DID happen on his watch/his book. Id MUCH rather it be a lil mini crossover so it helps Nightwing's and Batman's sales. I know its REALLY easy to think otherwise about the title right now but people would flock to this.

----------


## Digifiend

Huh. I always thought Nightwing previously being Robin was public knowledge, but apparently not. Duke Thomas knew that Nightwing was Dick Grayson because his identity had been outed, and in Robin War met Agent 37 (who was using the Spyral face disguising tech), who identified himself as the first Robin. Duke only knew they were one and the same because he realized that Nightwing looks like adult Robin. From Grayson #15:

----------


## AmiMizuno

What’s been the worst thing Dc has done to Dick’s character?

----------


## AmiMizuno

I feel Dick should show up less those. I mean he does have his own villains and issues to work out. I feel they have dick showing up more in Batman comics instead of the Batfam in his own.

----------


## Badou

I feel like people are overvaluing Tynion's plans for Dick in his Batman run. He's likely only going to be in his Batman story to explain why Dick doesn't become Batman in DC's 5G thing while someone else (Luke Fox I guess) does it.

----------


## astro@work

> What’s been the worst thing Dc has done to Dick’s character?


See the current run of "Nightwing"....

----------


## Ascended

> They created a poor situation, and now that problem unfortunately feeds itself. Nightwing's numbers are worse then ever now, so for it to happened in Nightwing it would go unnoticed. They can either have Nightwing's current crap creators do it, in their current crap book that can't even crack the top 100 anymore, or they do it in Batman so some people at least maybe see it. 
> Honestly the best thing would be to canceled Nightwing, and then bring him back in Batman leading to a new series relaunch with a new creative team and the works. But that probably isn't going to happen. They'll bring him back in Batman to get the eyes, and then will probably hand him back to Jurgans. So he can continue to bore everyone with his by the numbers dragged out shit.


As if DC gives a damn about Nightwing's sales? 

If you want attention on Dick's return have Batman cameo and put him on the cover. Or have someone talk about it in Batman. Or give Nightwing a one-page ad. Or relaunch the book with a new #1 and creative team. 

I get what you're saying, and yeah fixing Dick in Bruce's book will ensure more people see it. But that's not doing anything for the larger problem; DC viewing Nightwing as a Robin who happens to have a solo, rather than as a solo title who happened to be a Robin.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Dc doesn't care for any of the batfam only Batman. I don't see 5G working out well.

----------


## Ascended

> Dc doesn't care for any of the batfam only Batman. I don't see 5G working out well.


If it really is taking over the whole publishing line? Oh gods no, it'll probably crash harder than DCYOU did.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean right now what is Dick missing? One majority thing would be feeling that he is his own man

----------


## CPSparkles

There's this major disconnect between the handling of Nightwing in the comics and the way he's handled and promoted in outside media.

I don't understand how he can be so promoted in everything aside from the comics. I understand that customers rarely migrate across from TV to comics but how can they seem to care and value him in one form/medium and not care in another? 

Is it a lack of oversight? A case of one department doing something while the other [comics] doing another?

----------


## CPSparkles

> I mean right now what is Dick missing? One majority thing would be feeling that he is his own man


A long term management plan for the character that doesn't get derailed due to events arising from other titles
A dedicated editor who cares for the character not just for Batman
A good creative writer who likes the character. Is excited to explore the character and really wants to play with the character
DC to see respect and value him as an independent character. To treat him accordingly.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> A long term management plan for the character that doesn't get derailed due to events arising from other titles
> A dedicated editor who cares for the character not just for Batman
> A good creative writer who likes the character. Is excited to explore the character and really wants to play with the character
> DC to see respect and value him as an independent character. To treat him accordingly.


I mean since he technically is a Batman character he fells under the editing team. The question is who is the right creative team

----------


## Godlike13

> I mean right now what is Dick missing? One majority thing would be feeling that he is his own man


Creativity.

----------


## CPSparkles

> If I remember correctly, Tynion is  handling the restoration of Nightwing. Whatever King is doing, has to be some one off thing. 
> 
> My question is there gonna be a Nightwing and Batman crossover or something? Its nice that the book that caused all of this is rebuilding the character but what is Jurgens supposed to do with the book in the mean time?


I didn't see anything about rebuilding/restoring Nightwing in the plan laid out by Tynion. There's been 2 plans so far and nothing so I doubt he'll be a big focus.

I think that Jurgens book will rebuild/restore Nightwing while Tynion writes Batman including a Batman story that has Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> There's this major disconnect between the handling of Nightwing in the comics and the way he's handled and promoted in outside media.
> 
> I don't understand how he can be so promoted in everything aside from the comics. I understand that customers rarely migrate across from TV to comics but how can they seem to care and value him in one form/medium and not care in another? 
> 
> Is it a lack of oversight? A case of one department doing something while the other [comics] doing another?


I think it's largely a case of not only different departments, but completely different sides of the company (if not different entities altogether, I'm not sure how DC's set up in this regard). The movie and tv and video game guys don't answer to Didio or anyone else on the publishing side. They've got different bosses.

And because larger media success doesn't filter down to floppies and these are different mediums with different needs, there's very little reason for the comics to chase synergy or try to capitalize on successful adaptations. 

And because comics are such a tiny slice of the pie, publishing can largely do what it wants as long as it's turning a profit overall. No one cares if a mid-tier book like Nightwing isn't selling quite as much as it should. The difference to the guys at WB/AT&T is like noticing you lost a nickle.

----------


## Ascended

> I mean since he technically is a Batman character he fells under the editing team. The question is who is the right creative team


And the Bat editors can treat him as something more than just another Robin. They used to, they can again. Dick could be handled great under the Bat office if the Bat office wanted to handle him right.

And Dick doesn't *have* to be under the Bat umbrella anyway. For a while he was under Titans editorial, and other legacies like Donna Troy and some of the YJ kids don't fall under their mentors' editorial group either. 

I say the Bat and Super offices trade. We'll give Nightwing to Superman, and Batman can have Steel in return. I feel like that might benefit everyone!

----------


## Blue22

> What’s been the worst thing Dc has done to Dick’s character?


Aside from what they're doing now? Probably when he freaked out at Kory for entering a loveless, political, and totally in name only marriage to save her people. The marriage that's literally only binding on her home planet. To a guy who, if I recall, had his own lover so he wouldn't care if Kory was still with Dick.

----------


## dropkickjake

> And the Bat editors can treat him as something more than just another Robin. They used to, they can again. Dick could be handled great under the Bat office if the Bat office wanted to handle him right.
> 
> And Dick doesn't *have* to be under the Bat umbrella anyway. For a while he was under Titans editorial, and other legacies like Donna Troy and some of the YJ kids don't fall under their mentors' editorial group either. 
> 
> I say the Bat and Super offices trade. We'll give Nightwing to Superman, and Batman can have Steel in return. I feel like that might benefit everyone!


Thing is, they should be doing this for all of the former Robins, focusing on their distinctions and what makes them unique. Each one should have their own book with their own distinctive tone and direction. All four of them can hold a solo with decent sales. Tim (IMO) doesn't work as well as a team leader and should have an actual detective book. Jason should be rogue hero/antihero type stuff. Damian doing ninja stuff. And Dick could have several directions fit him, Team Leader, Ace Spy, hell even Space Ranger (though I think we are all partial to spy stuff). All of these could hold their own _if the bat office wanted more than one strong character._

----------


## AmiMizuno

Dc don’t care. They haven’t cared in a long time. Everyone has to be lesser than Batman. Only Batman can save the day. All characters in Batman’s book are written as weak.

----------


## Claude

> Dc don’t care. They haven’t cared in a long time. Everyone has to be lesser than Batman. Only Batman can save the day. All characters in Batman’s book are written as weak.


See, I'm not sure.... I kind of think Dick just missed his shot, really. 

It's not that long since "Robin War" and "Batman And Robin Eternal" which - putting aside your thoughts about the quality of those stories - were DC _really_ getting behind Dick Grayson as a story-driving lead character, with a story-driving personal Status Quo, and a major player. When those books were coming out, wasn't it something like a third of _all_ DC's output for three months starred Dick?

But then - and again, leaving personal opinions out of it - those books didn't seem to perform as DC had hoped. And then _very_ quickly the "Grayson" elements were backed up to more neutral "Bat-Family Supporting Character" baseline, and Dick moved from driving events to being lucky to be featured in them. 

Oh, for a world where Batman And Robin Eternal turned out better..... I think we'd be in a _very_ different place for Dick now if it had.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope sooner rather than later we get better stories.

----------


## Claude

> I hope sooner rather than later we get better stories.


Amen to that!

----------


## AmiMizuno

Any ideas for a good story idea?

----------


## Godlike13

> See, I'm not sure.... I kind of think Dick just missed his shot, really. 
> 
> It's not that long since "Robin War" and "Batman And Robin Eternal" which - putting aside your thoughts about the quality of those stories - were DC _really_ getting behind Dick Grayson as a story-driving lead character, with a story-driving personal Status Quo, and a major player. When those books were coming out, wasn't it something like a third of _all_ DC's output for three months starred Dick?
> 
> But then - and again, leaving personal opinions out of it - those books didn't seem to perform as DC had hoped. And then _very_ quickly the "Grayson" elements were backed up to more neutral "Bat-Family Supporting Character" baseline, and Dick moved from driving events to being lucky to be featured in them. 
> 
> Oh, for a world where Batman And Robin Eternal turned out better..... I think we'd be in a _very_ different place for Dick now if it had.


That doesn’t really follow though, as actually after Grayson and B&RE/Robin War Dick landed a twice mouthy series all his own, Titans, and an else world mini. So his regular production did increase after those. And with Rebirth both books did rather well initially. I think it was a new high for Nightwing even, and Titans creators said repeatedly they weren’t expecting Titans to do what it did.

And here is the thing with Batman and Robin Eternal, Dick was just a view point. It didn’t spin out of Grayson or his story. Bruce was just off the table and they needed someone general readers gave a shit about as a viewpoint, but it was never his story and that became apparent to readers rather fast. He was quickly fed to its true leads of Harper and Cass. He didn’t drive that event or story, it did nothing to expand on his current personal status quo, they just brought him back to Gotham to use him and the Robin anniversary to try and sell their Harper and Cass story despite his personal status quo. Its story lead to nothing for him, or what he was going to do after, and ultimately it just positioned him under two lesser know characters that went nowhere after. 
B&RE was exactly what people are saying they shouldn’t be doing with Dick. Portraying Dick as just another Robin, bringing him further into the Bat umbrella just to undermine him and his story to try and prop Batman or other Bat characters. B&RE wasn’t selling him or his story, but Harper and Cass’. He was just there so they can kick his ass and tell everyone how they would have been a better Robin. His character, status quo, and story going forward received no benefit from it. 

Whats more Ric is going to out last Grayson, despite being the worst Dick has sold since pretty much ever. And pretty much from the start. So, ya...

----------


## Rac7d*

Thease appreciation pages
Been pretty depressing

----------


## Valentonis

> Thease appreciation pages
> Been pretty depressing


You're right. Let's try to spice things up despite the rough times.

What are your guys' single favorite issues of ol' Dicky G? I think I've mentioned it before in this thread, but I'm partial to Nightwing Rebirth #15, just fun read and a great character study all around. I'm of the mind that a single issue should be able to tell an entire story, and Seeley really nailed it with that one (Up till the cliffhanger ending of course).

----------


## Ascended

I don't recall the issue number, and there's been a lot of single issues I really enjoyed, but what stands out right now was an early-ish issue from Dixon where Superman shows up to check on Dick and catch up. It was one of the most fun issues Dixon did on the series and he was able to balance the two characters really well, and didn't sacrifice any of Dick's agency for the bigger, more powerful character. Clark *does* help Dick rack up a couple easy wins (Dick has Clark strong arm Blockbuster at one point) but it was tons of fun to read and Dick is the one driving the issue.

This happened during a time in the Super books where Clark was taking over the world (the whole Dominus thing I think it was), and most of the time when Clark showed up during that year or two period, he was kind of an ass. But he shows up in Bludhaven all smiles, knowing (and I think he says as much) that Dick is the one hero Clark knows he doesn't have to worry about.

----------


## Restingvoice

Broken record here, but Robin Dies At Dawn and We All Die At Dawn. I'll add the issue where he swordfights a Talon... that's so hot, he needs to hold a sword more often... so of course, the other time he holds a sword when he goes all Kill Bill fighting Crazy 88 to rescue Damian.

----------


## K7P5V

My Top 5 Favorites (chronologically listed):

The Judas Contract (1984)
Prodigal (1994)
A Knight in Bludhaven (1996)
Rough Justice (1997)
Love & Bullets (1998)

----------


## Rac7d*

Grayson issue 6

So much fun to read on over and over

----------


## Restingvoice

My Neighbor Batman by doc-squash on Tumblr

tumblr_10f1ce0be05af0cddfbd7c8a270cd67f_16fcbebd_640.jpg

Frigging kawaii

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hey, I'm curious. Due to Dick Grayon's personality does he interacted from time to time with the public? You know like talk to troubled teens? or Does charity work when he is Nightwing?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hey, I'm curious. Due to Dick Grayon's personality does he interacted from time to time with the public? You know like talk to troubled teens? or Does charity work when he is Nightwing?


He comforts people he saves, talks to civilians if he's riding the same elevator, and gives Wayne Enterprises contacts and referrals to homeless people or former criminals looking for a job.

----------


## dropkickjake

Favorite single issue for me has to be The Gun Goes Off. That is peak Tom King... all the things about his writing that CAN be a bit grating at times work to perfection in this issue.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What is one of the best arcs that explains who Dick Grayson/Nightwing really is

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hey, I'm curious. Due to Dick Grayon's personality does he interacted from time to time with the public? You know like talk to troubled teens? or Does charity work when he is Nightwing?


He use too with the titans

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean I don't know with how his personality is I often thought maybe as Nightwing they would make him do that more.But I guess it would be silly right

----------


## Rac7d*

the issue wasn't good but i liked this part, closest I will ever get to my brave and the bold team up

----------


## Valentonis

Reading the posts here has got me re-reading some the older runs, and I have to say I really miss Midnighter and Dick's interactions. I would've loved for the God Garden to become one of Dick's regular connections, he felt surprisingly fitting in that corner of the DCU.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Reading the posts here has got me re-reading some the older runs, and I have to say I really miss Midnighter and Dick's interactions. I would've loved for the God Garden to become one of Dick's regular connections, he felt surprisingly fitting in that corner of the DCU.


I miss Midnighter  In general

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is Dick  being Agent 37 any good?

----------


## Godlike13

> Is Dick  being Agent 37 any good?


Very good.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is this the one where he is Ric or before?

----------


## Godlike13

Before Ric, before Rebirth even. The series was called Grayson.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How long will this whole Ric thing last?

----------


## Godlike13

Who knows. Its already lasted far longer then it reasonably should have. There has been some talk Batman will end it sometime in 2020, but again who knows. Im not sure the title even has another year in it at this point.

----------


## Restingvoice

In the meantime, Marcus To is drawing another low riding Nightwing pants ^^

tumblr_aafebb64d3b7545de1068892dddbfdcc_3898c534_1280.jpg

----------


## WonderNight

> How long will this whole Ric thing last?


doesn't really matter. By the time dick comes back 5g will be right around the corner and dick will be moved to the back ground anyway.

----------


## Badou

I thought for sure the Ric garbage would end this Summer in time for King's big Batman event story. I couldn't imagine they would keep putting out a story everyone hated and have him miss out on King's big climatic fight with Bane and Thomas who sparked this Ric story in the first place, but all that came and went and we are now going into Spring of 2020 and the Ric story is still ongoing. So it could very easily last until the Summer of 2020 now and be stretched out until this 5G stuff happens. So sure, maybe Dick will get his memories back before 5G but they could drag this out with him continuing to deal with the fake Nightwing cops and the Owls until the 5G launch.

----------


## Pohzee

I bet they'll bring him back in the Robin 80th.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope not. Wish Dc actually cared for Dick. I wonder how long until we get a good story.

----------


## dropkickjake

> What is one of the best arcs that explains who Dick Grayson/Nightwing really is


Actually, Nightwing #29 by Higgins is a really great look at the character. It was his last issue and it served as an excellent goodbye.

Its been a long time, but I recall Black Mirror by Snyder doing a good job of looking at Dick Grayson as a character.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What is one of the best arcs that explains who Dick Grayson/Nightwing really is


My favorite moments of him are all over the place, not as long as a story arc.
Grayson #3 about his stance on guns and people's life
Grayson #5 where he walked ten days in the desert to save a baby
Rebirth Batman #54 where he spent the whole issue trying to cheer up a heartbroken and depressed Bruce
His appearances throughout The Court of Owls and Night of The Owls arc where he's determined not to be defined by the past or his family's ancestry 
Gotham Knights #1 where he calls out Bruce on his insistence to work alone
Well, basically every time Dick calls out Bruce on his shit or simply act as the more mature one is gold.
Oh! Definitely Batman Prelude to The Wedding Nightwing vs Hush #1 for his loyalty, kindness, and seeing through someone's issue

I don't think I have an arc just yet since his appeal is his personality and morality, they come up in smaller moments than a full story arc.

----------


## Badou

> I bet they'll bring him back in the Robin 80th.


Doesn't look like it. Seems they doing what I thought with just continuing the story of Ric and the cop Nightwings even if he has his part of his memories back. They are bringing the Joker into Bludhaven for a new story arc now.

Bludhaven is such a creatively bankrupt place they have to drag in another Gotham villain for another story.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I hope not. Wish Dc actually cared for Dick. I wonder how long until we get a good story.


Valentines day

----------


## Vakanai

So, we ever going to rename this the Ric Appreciation Thread?

----------


## king81992

> So, we ever going to rename this the Ric Appreciation Thread?


I should hope not.That being said if Dick is still Ric by 2021 we may as well have one(not that there's much to be appreciated).Based on solicits, Ric is STILL a thing in March 2020.

----------


## Pohzee

> So, we ever going to rename this the Ric Appreciation Thread?


I tried to make one but the mods locked it  :Frown: 

Anyhoo, I'm out. Jesus this whole thing sucks how is there no end.

----------


## Vakanai

> I should hope not.That being said if Dick is still Ric by 2021 we may as well have one(not that there's much to be appreciated).Based on solicits, Ric is STILL a thing in March 2020.





> I tried to make one but the mods locked it 
> 
> Anyhoo, I'm out. Jesus this whole thing sucks how is there no end.


Not a separate appreciation thread - this thread. Shouldn't Ric be included somewhere in the long name of this thread?

----------


## Schumiac

Nope. Because this is an appreciation thread and there is nothing to appreciate about Ric. It is a shameful blight that needs to be forgotten the moment it ends. Besides Ric's whole thing is he doesn't want to be even remotely associated with Dick Grayson, changing his name (in an effort to erase him), completely ignoring the people in his life etc etc.,  so i think it is fitting he gets treated as his own sepeare thing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nope. Because this is an appreciation thread and there is nothing to appreciate about Ric. It is a shameful blight that needs to be forgotten the moment it ends. Besides Ric's whole thing is he doesn't want to be even remotely associated with Dick Grayson, changing his name (in an effort to erase him), completely ignoring the people in his life etc etc.,  so i think it is fitting he gets treated as his own sepeare thing.


If I was new to this thread I would think there was nothing to appreciate about Rick either

----------


## Badou

It is a little disappointing that Dick Grayson's 80th anniversary is watered down by just lumping him into the Robin 80th anniversary, but it was expected. I guess the same thing happened for the 75th anniversary with lumping all the Robins together.

----------


## Tzigone

> It is a little disappointing that Dick Grayson's 80th anniversary is watered down by just lumping him into the Robin 80th anniversary, but it was expected. I guess the same thing happened for the 75th anniversary with lumping all the Robins together.


It makes me think of something someone said earlier (in regards each gen of characters being discarded): that DC cares about properties, but not characters.  Robin, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualab, etc. are important - who is in the costume isn't. Can't recall the exact phrasing, but it's probably true.  

By the way, what are the latest sales numbers on Ric looking like?  Plateaued or going up or down or what?

----------


## AmiMizuno

My guess is that they might go for Dick as a Nightwing anniversary instead of just robin. It makes me feel that dc makes them disposable. I hope things get better

----------


## Ascended

> Doesn't look like it. Seems they doing what I thought with just continuing the story of Ric and the cop Nightwings even if he has his part of his memories back. They are bringing the Joker into Bludhaven for a new story arc now.
> 
> Bludhaven is such a creatively bankrupt place they have to drag in another Gotham villain for another story.


I know you hate the city, but let's be real here; Bludhaven is the least of our problems right now. These creators and this direction wouldn't bear any better fruit if this were happening somewhere else. The Bat family wouldn't be coming to visit or save Dick even if things were happening in Gotham. The setting is the last thing we need to worry about right now.

And I have no interest in this thread being re-named so "Ric" can be included.

----------


## Godlike13

This tread gets closed at the end of the month, adding Ric to the new one seems like it would just be an attempt at trolling too me.

----------


## Godlike13

BTW except for Batman crossovers and events, has a Nightwing writer ever been able to bring in the Joker? I would be surprised they let Jurgan's bring in the Joker, yet im not. Any life raft at this point i guess.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay in generel how does everyone feel about Dick's city? I mean if anything I often thought Jump city would have been an interesting place.  Since it's where the Titans are. However. maybe he should be somewhere father from Gotham?

----------


## Digifiend

Isn't Jump City only from the TV shows? It doesn't exist in the comics, Titans Tower is traditionally in New York.

----------


## Restingvoice

> My guess is that they might go for Dick as a Nightwing anniversary instead of just robin. It makes me feel that dc makes them disposable. I hope things get better


Has there ever been a Nightwing anniversary? In Nightwing's 30th year they killed him and make him a secret agent.

----------


## Schumiac

So apparently Dixon wrote a Nightwing story this week. people seem to think it is for the Robin 80th but I don't know, that would be a "Robin" story not a Nightwing one, no?

----------


## Godlike13

We’re getting a Grayson story in it too.

----------


## Badou

> It makes me think of something someone said earlier (in regards each gen of characters being discarded): that DC cares about properties, but not characters.  Robin, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualab, etc. are important - who is in the costume isn't. Can't recall the exact phrasing, but it's probably true.  
> 
> By the way, what are the latest sales numbers on Ric looking like?  Plateaued or going up or down or what?


That makes a lot of sense. I think Flash's anniversary was the same way? With it including Jay and Wally in it.

I think it was at 20K last month? So maybe it will drop below 20K when we see the next sales charts.  




> I know you hate the city, but let's be real here; Bludhaven is the least of our problems right now. These creators and this direction wouldn't bear any better fruit if this were happening somewhere else. The Bat family wouldn't be coming to visit or save Dick even if things were happening in Gotham. The setting is the last thing we need to worry about right now.


I can't pass on taking a shot at Bludhaven, lol. Although I don't think Ric would have been as bad if Bludhaven didn't exist. It allowed DC to just shove his character off there and tell the most zero effort and lazy stories possible. Sure it might have been just as bad, but maybe without it they would have had to get a bit more creative in how they wrote off Dick's character. 




> BTW except for Batman crossovers and events, has a Nightwing writer ever been able to bring in the Joker? I would be surprised they let Jurgan's bring in the Joker, yet im not. Any life raft at this point i guess.


I wonder why the Joker would even care about what is happening in Bludhaven and Nightwing. That goes completely against character. I'm sure the Joker has shown up in regular Nightwing issues before, but I can't recall it. This story is just an easy one to tell like the Scarecrow one before. Just bring in a Gotham villain and have Ric and the Nightwings fight them. I'm surprised they didn't bring in Deathstroke off the back of the Titans TV show, but DC seems to hate pairing up Nightwing and Deathstroke. Jurgens probably has the pull to do what he wants on the book since DC has no interest in doing anything else with it. 

I just worry that Jurgens is going to bring in his awful Batman Beyond ideas to Nightwing like have Dick suddenly want to become a politician and be mayor of Bludhaven like if they still have Jurgens writing the book post 5G.

----------


## Godlike13

Really hope Jurgan’s goes with Ric. The last thing I want to see is Nightwing becoming his RHatOs. Find another series for him to keep busy on with his stale ass writing.

----------


## Waterfall

There is no problem with Bludhaven. It's part of the character now, it's like saying Metropolis or Central limit their heroes.

Problem is that they have no intention of ending the current phase, to me it signals that a relaunch is near and they want to put this out as a filler until then. I'm going to take a guess that he'll come back to his senses once Crisis starts.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> There is no problem with Bludhaven. It's part of the character now, it's like saying Metropolis or Central limit their heroes.
> 
> Problem is that they have no intention of ending the current phase, to me it signals that a relaunch is near and they want to put this out as a filler until then. I'm going to take a guess that he'll come back to his senses once Crisis starts.


Maybe they will retcon all of this. I mean this Ric thing is going up to next year. I wonder since Tim and Babs has this on their own. Does Dick have his own compute system to check out criminals and doesn’t go to Batman. Because generally I have seen him not have much than I don’t read too much of Nightwing lately

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> There is no problem with Bludhaven. It's part of the character now, it's like saying Metropolis or Central limit their heroes.
> 
> Problem is that they have no intention of ending the current phase, to me it signals that a relaunch is near and they want to put this out as a filler until then. I'm going to take a guess that he'll come back to his senses once Crisis starts.


Bludhaven is nowhere near important enough to Dick the way Metropolis is for Superman or Central/Keystone is to the Flashes.

He has no consistent ties there. No consistent worthwhile supporting cast or villains. All his important life events and relationships are either in Gotham, wherever the Titans are at or even Metropolis with his Uncle Superman. Bludhaven is dead weight and it should never have been brought back IMO.

----------


## AmiMizuno

It wouldn’t be impossible to make his city impossible. Either make a supporting cast for him or being someone that dock knows to live with him. Looking back on some of the characters it wouldn’t be hard to revises them

----------


## Rac7d*

> It wouldn’t be impossible to make his city impossible. Either make a supporting cast for him or being someone that dock knows to live with him. Looking back on some of the characters it wouldn’t be hard to revises them


It worked fine for Dixon until devin blew it up

----------


## Waterfall

> Maybe they will retcon all of this. I mean this Ric thing is going up to next year. I wonder since Tim and Babs has this on their own. Does Dick have his own compute system to check out criminals and doesn’t go to Batman. Because generally I have seen him not have much than I don’t read too much of Nightwing lately


Rather than retcon, I expect it to be sweeped under. It reminds me of the time Wally had the pacemaker, now nobody cares about it.
He had an easier access to compute system back when he was a police officer, but he used Titans system most of the time.




> Bludhaven is nowhere near important enough to Dick the way Metropolis is for Superman or Central/Keystone is to the Flashes.
> 
> He has no consistent ties there. No consistent worthwhile supporting cast or villains. All his important life events and relationships are either in Gotham, wherever the Titans are at or even Metropolis with his Uncle Superman. Bludhaven is dead weight and it should never have been brought back IMO.


He has more ties to Bludhaven than Metropolis.
Blud is his main base of operation and became synonym to his name. Seeley's concept (he has home but travels around the world as well) was the best in modern era, and people after him should just add on to it more in my opinion. It's good for a character to have a free playground.

----------


## Badou

> There is no problem with Bludhaven. It's part of the character now, it's like saying Metropolis or Central limit their heroes


I strongly disagree. Bludhaven is a creatively bankrupt dead end and its main purpose is to act as a holding cell for Dick's character when they want him out of the way. Nothing about it is integral to the character the way Metropolis is to Superman or Central City is to Flash. 

I've said this a lot, but I kind of love repeating it because it really shows just how little a connection Dick has to the city. Dick wasn't born in Bludhaven and isn't from there, none of his family is from Bludhaven either, he didn't create any of his superhero identities there, none of his major love interests are there, none of his close friends are there, no teams or organizations he is part of are there, he has no job or career that requires him to be there, and he generally has no strong ties to the city. You can't compare Bludhaven to other cities where their heroes were born and raised there, or that is where they debuted for the first time.

----------


## Digifiend

> Maybe they will retcon all of this. I mean this Ric thing is going up to next year. I wonder since Tim and Babs has this on their own. Does Dick have his own compute system to check out criminals and doesn’t go to Batman. Because generally I have seen him not have much than I don’t read too much of Nightwing lately


If he did, he doesn't any more. One of the first things he did as Ric was destroy his safehouse. The only thing that survived were four old costumes, since they were fireproof. The cop that Ric now calls Nightwing Prime (who wears the Rebirth costume) found them later, and handed three of them over to his friends, who became Nightwings Gold (Disco costume), Blue (the other disco costume), and Red (New 52 costume).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> He has more ties to Bludhaven than Metropolis.
> Blud is his main base of operation and became synonym to his name. Seeley's concept (he has home but travels around the world as well) was the best in modern era, and people after him should just add on to it more in my opinion. It's good for a character to have a free playground.


Superman lives in Metropolis. He has far more history with Superman, going back to the 50s, than he does with anyone who has ever lived in Bludhaven. He, Batman and Superman are arguably the original Trinity, not with Wonder Woman. 

Seeley did ok with Bludhaven, but he didn't even want to use it in the first place. it was kind of foisted on him by the larger "back to basics" approach of the Rebirth initiative. It's pretty telling that his best arcs, the first and the third and which had a heavy Grayson/Morrison flavor, had little to no Bludhaven in them. That was where his interest lay as a writer.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wonder Woman is part of the trinity because she is one of the largest and oldest female characters that has her own title. Nightwing doesn’t have that. He didn’t have his own title until later own.


I mean why not have Bludhaven be the main city it can’t be too hard. He needs to have his own base if we need him to be more focused on his own thing.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Wonder Woman is part of the trinity because she is one of the largest and oldest female characters that has her own title. Nightwing doesn’t have that. He didn’t have his own title until later own.


Dick Grayson in general, specifically as Robin, not just Nightwing. He didn't have a solo title, but he did have solo stories and was attached to Batman at the hip. The three of them teamed up quite a bit, and he spent more time with Bruce and Clark than Diana did originally. Overall, especially now, I'd definitely say the Trinity is those two plus WW, and Dick would be the close fourth pillar though. 





> I mean why not have Bludhaven be the main city it can’t be too hard. He needs to have his own base if we need him to be more focused on his own thing.


They've had a couple decades to make Bludhaven interesting and essential to him, but it's just not happening. Unless the city was created along with a hero, it's hard to cement them there. Dick didn't get Bludhaven until the 90s, and he's existed since 1940. His main home is and always will be Gotham, with his secondary home being New York with the Titans. Otherwise I think he should just travel around. If he has his own rogues gallery, they should be able to pop in different locations along with him. Deathstroke, Raptor, Professor Pyg, Flamingo and the Fist of Cain fit the bill.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If he did, he doesn't any more. One of the first things he did as Ric was destroy his safehouse. The only thing that survived were four old costumes, since they were fireproof. The cop that Ric now calls Nightwing Prime (who wears the Rebirth costume) found them later, and handed three of them over to his friends, who became Nightwings Gold (Disco costume), Blue (the other disco costume), and Red (New 52 costume).


Gosh, that sounds awful. If only Dick came up with the color code himself, that would be cute, because he's a dork like that, but because they came up with it, sounds awful




> I mean why not have Bludhaven be the main city it can’t be too hard. He needs to have his own base if we need him to be more focused on his own thing.


Bludhaven is synonymous with Nightwing because it's the first time he got a solo, much like how Robin is associated with Gotham because that's where he started and Titans with New York. Since Nightwing's debut is tied with the Titans franchise, it makes Bludhaven significant. 

Even if I don't like how they handle it, being Gotham-lite, I still want to make it work, if only because it has such a cool name, but to make it work, they have to make Nightwing work first beyond being Fun Batman in Dark City 

And if people want a home base that's iconic and purely Dick Grayson without ties to time or anyone else, then it would be Haly's Circus.




> Not a separate appreciation thread - this thread. Shouldn't Ric be included somewhere in the long name of this thread?


If the people in charge actually appreciate it, at least I would say okay, but the more I realize how much can be included in Ric to make it a good story but they don't, because they don't care, the angrier I get. I don't want it

It's a story about how Dick only remembers the day before Wayne Manor, but they didn't bring Haly's Circus back
They didn't use Raptor
They used the Court of Owls but way too late
Scarecrow is his early villain, that's actually a good idea, but it should be the last as a memory jog
Same with Two-Face, if they want to get him a significant villain, it should be his Year One
They're using Joker currently, and I guess that could work since in Golden Age he's his first supervillain, but I doubt they thought that far. He's more associated with Batman and killing a Robin, and I can't help but feel he's brought in only to make Joker fans read this book, since it's losing readers, and to kill the fake Nightwing.
I wouldn't mind the fake Nightwing story, they got their hearts in the right place... if it's not a copy of recent Bat-Bunny and We Are Robins. 
And it all boils down to amnesia being a repetitive plot device
Not yet counting all the messes from everyone involved

Oh yeah, I'm only talking about the plot that could've happened, not the fact that Dick reject the name, Dick. That's stupid. *His mother calls him Dick... and they retcon that just for this story!* F it! No Ric appreciation! What did I say in the other thread? Perfect storm of illogicality, because it's obvious they don't care!

----------


## Rakiduam

> Not a separate appreciation thread - this thread. Shouldn't Ric be included somewhere in the long name of this thread?


No. Robin, Nightwing, Grayson are all Dick Grayson. Ric isn't

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe they will retcon all of this. I mean this Ric thing is going up to next year. I wonder since Tim and Babs has this on their own. Does Dick have his own compute system to check out criminals and doesn’t go to Batman. Because generally I have seen him not have much than I don’t read too much of Nightwing lately


Babs had hooked him up until this ric shit

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

> Same with Two-Face, if they want to get him a significant villain, it should be his Year One


Maybe we could close this arc with Harvey and Dick getting together over a cup of coffee to commiserate over what it's like to fall victim to a flabbergastingly stupid editorial decision.

Two-Face is a vastly more interesting antagonist for Dick than the Joker, imo. Dick's greatest antagonists, though, are undoubtedly the writers and editors at DC.

----------


## Digifiend

> Gosh, that sounds awful. If only Dick came up with the color code himself, that would be cute, because he's a dork like that, but because they came up with it, sounds awful


He actually did come up with it himself. The colours first came up in Ric's narration boxes.

----------


## Restingvoice

> He actually did come up with it himself. The colors first came up in Ric's narration boxes.


Hmmm, I guess there's a little bit of him left then

----------


## Lazurus33

NIGHTWING #70
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET and TRAVIS MOORE
cover by MIKE PERKINS
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
How many Nightwings does it take for one Joker to strike to get to the real one? Four Nightwings. And thats not even the punchlinehow will Ric interact with the Joker when hes not quite sure which one of his two memories is the real oneand exactly how dangerous this clown standing before him is?
ON SALE 03.18.20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | DC
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzEvMjAwL29yaWdpbmFsL05JR0hUV0lOR183MF9jb3Zl.jpg
aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzEvMTk5L29yaWdpbmFsL05pZ2h0V2luZ183MF9Db3Zl.jpg

ROBIN 80TH ANNIVERSARY 100-PAGE SUPER SPECTACULAR #1
written by MARV WOLFMAN, CHUCK DIXON, DEVIN GRAYSON, TIM SEELEY, TOM KING, JUDD WINICK, JAMES TYNION IV, AMY WOLFRAM, ROBBIE THOMPSON, ADAM GLASS, PETER J. TOMASI, and more!
art by TOM GRUMMETT, SCOTT McDANIEL, MIKEL JANÍN, KENNETH ROCAFORT, FREDDIE E. WILLIAMS II, JAVI FERNANDEZ, NICOLA SCOTT, DUSTIN NGUYEN, ANDY KUBERT, FRANK MILLER, and others
cover by LEE WEEKS
1940s variant cover by JIM LEE and SCOTT WILLIAMS
1950s variant cover by JULIAN TOTINO TEDESCO
1960s variant cover by DUSTIN NGUYEN
1970s variant cover by KAARE ANDREWS
1980s variant cover by FRANK MILLER
1990s variant cover by JIM CHEUNG
2000s variant cover by DERRICK CHEW
2010s variant cover by YASMINE PUTRI
blank variant cover
DC Comics celebrates Robin the Boy Wonders 80th anniversary in style with an all-star creative team representing each iteration of the iconic character across eight decades of history! From the high-flying adventures of Dick Grayson to the tragedy of Jason Todd, the enthusiasm of Tim Drake and the arrogance of Damian Wayne, the persistence of Stephanie Brown and the rebelliousness of Carrie Kelleythe mantle of Robin has been worn by many, but always represents one thing: a hero.
ONE-SHOT
PRESTIGE FORMAT
ON SALE 03.11.20
$9.99 US | 96 PAGES
FC | DC
This issue will ship with 11 covers.
Please see the order form for details.

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## Restingvoice

Jim Lee live stream sketch for a fan

tumblr_2712974f088246d15eb2f037246be733_4475a7f6_640.jpg

----------


## Schumiac

Do we really believe DC will kill off the fake Nightwings? I am pretty sure they will just get knocked out or something as Joker goes after the real deal. I WISH they did get killed because honestly amateurs like them should be way over their heads, and it would highlight how Dick Grayson is the only one suitable for the job as Nightwing and how it is not something any fool who happens upon a costume can do, but that is expecting way too much from DC. They will probably keep them around and claim they have crated a rich environment for Dick with many new popular side characters...

----------


## king81992

> Do we really believe DC will kill off the fake Nightwings? I am pretty sure they will just get knocked out or something as Joker goes after the real deal. I WISH they did get killed because honestly amateurs like them should be way over their heads, and it would highlight how Dick Grayson is the only one suitable for the job as Nightwing and how it is not something any fool who happens upon a costume can do, but that is expecting way too much from DC. They will probably keep them around and claim they have crated a rich environment for Dick with many new popular side characters...


The Nightwing impersonators aren't Titans characters so DC won't kill them off.

----------


## Waterfall

> I strongly disagree. Bludhaven is a creatively bankrupt dead end and its main purpose is to act as a holding cell for Dick's character when they want him out of the way. Nothing about it is integral to the character the way Metropolis is to Superman or Central City is to Flash. 
> 
> I've said this a lot, but I kind of love repeating it because it really shows just how little a connection Dick has to the city. Dick wasn't born in Bludhaven and isn't from there, none of his family is from Bludhaven either, he didn't create any of his superhero identities there, none of his major love interests are there, none of his close friends are there, no teams or organizations he is part of are there, he has no job or career that requires him to be there, and he generally has no strong ties to the city. You can't compare Bludhaven to other cities where their heroes were born and raised there, or that is where they debuted for the first time.






> Superman lives in Metropolis. He has far more history with Superman, going back to the 50s, than he does with anyone who has ever lived in Bludhaven. He, Batman and Superman are arguably the original Trinity, not with Wonder Woman. 
> 
> Seeley did ok with Bludhaven, but he didn't even want to use it in the first place. it was kind of foisted on him by the larger "back to basics" approach of the Rebirth initiative. It's pretty telling that his best arcs, the first and the third and which had a heavy Grayson/Morrison flavor, had little to no Bludhaven in them. That was where his interest lay as a writer.


What makes it "creatively dead end"? A hero having their own city makes the potential limitless. 

Wally was born in Blue Valley, he grew up in Central, spent a lot of his time in NYC, Manhattan (Titans) or Washington D.C.(JL) but he still had Keystone for himself. He didn't have a steady job like Dick either but it still worked. It's actually being in Gotham that hurts him the most. You could see in New 52 Nightwing where his status quo would be constantly ruined by Bat-events.

What Dick needs is to get away from Bat-office. None of your examples justifies getting rid of Bludhaven.

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## Godlike13

Bludhaven isn’t inherently bad, but it is a crutch in ways. It’s suppose to make it easier for different creators to come in and out, and there is sense in having that, but they have no standards with Nightwing and so it becomes a double edge sword. Bludhaven inadvertently has become a breeding ground for mediocrity. Where boring creators can come in and tell boring by the numbers factory like stories. Gotta protect my city from random bad guy of the month, cause that’s what other popular heroes do. 




> Do we really believe DC will kill off the fake Nightwings? I am pretty sure they will just get knocked out or something as Joker goes after the real deal. I WISH they did get killed because honestly amateurs like them should be way over their heads, and it would highlight how Dick Grayson is the only one suitable for the job as Nightwing and how it is not something any fool who happens upon a costume can do, but that is expecting way too much from DC. They will probably keep them around and claim they have crated a rich environment for Dick with many new popular side characters...


No because the right thing to do for the brand, books, and main character would be to kill them off. So that’s exactly what they won’t do. These out of touch bums will protect their shit. And of course it won’t be that the work done with Ric was obvious lazy garbage pulled out of their ass at the eleventh hour. It’s readers just aren’t open the change  :Wink: .

----------


## Astralabius

A lot of stories would improve if writers let other heroes shine even when Batman shows up in their book. 
I can't stand it when there's no tension in a fight, because I know the current fighters (no matter how big their numbers or how skilled they are) stand no chance against their opponents because Batman still needs to get a shot at them.
Every single time a member of the batfamily shows up that isn't Bruce or Selina I know they're going to get dunked on by Tom King. It's not even a question. I know it's going to happen. Even if it makes zero sense.

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## SiegePerilous02

> What makes it "creatively dead end"? A hero having their own city makes the potential limitless. 
> 
> Wally was born in Blue Valley, he grew up in Central, spent a lot of his time in NYC, Manhattan (Titans) or Washington D.C.(JL) but he still had Keystone for himself. He didn't have a steady job like Dick either but it still worked. It's actually being in Gotham that hurts him the most. You could see in New 52 Nightwing where his status quo would be constantly ruined by Bat-events.
> 
> What Dick needs is to get away from Bat-office. None of your examples justifies getting rid of Bludhaven.


Wally being born in Blue Valley and spending time in New York doesn't really count. He had Central and Keystone to himself because those are the cities the Flashes before him were associated with. He is carrying along their legacy so it's easy to slide him into those cities, as the Flashes had always been there. Bludhaven was invented for Nightwing, there is no Bat-family history for it before he arrives.

There are a multitude of reasons for the harm Nightwing's brand has sustained. But Bludhaven is just going to keep him connected to the Bat-Office. It was created when he was brought back to the Bat-office, is a discount knock off of Gotham City and is located literally right next to it. None of your examples justify keeping it, I'm sorry.

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## Badou

> What makes it "creatively dead end"? A hero having their own city makes the potential limitless. 
> 
> Wally was born in Blue Valley, he grew up in Central, spent a lot of his time in NYC, Manhattan (Titans) or Washington D.C.(JL) but he still had Keystone for himself. He didn't have a steady job like Dick either but it still worked. It's actually being in Gotham that hurts him the most. You could see in New 52 Nightwing where his status quo would be constantly ruined by Bat-events.
> 
> What Dick needs is to get away from Bat-office. None of your examples justifies getting rid of Bludhaven.


Dick's had his own city for decades and did the whole "solo hero protecting his own city" thing and it hasn't lead to anything substantial. If anything it limits his potential by putting him in a city he has barely any connection with and forcing the character into this generic street level hero box that feels so watered down. Characters like Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-man all do this better in cities they have far stronger attachments to anyway. 

Also there is no evidence that Bludhaven protects Dick from Bat-events or changes in direction outside his own book. The Ric story is an example of that. When Dick got his ID exposed to the world in Forever Evil Bludhaven didn't really exist during the New 52. So DC and the Batman office had to think of a creative way to try and get Dick's character out of the way so they wouldn't have to deal with his ID being exposed. That lead to the wonderful Grayson series. Had Bludhaven existed they probably would have just dumped the character in there like they did with with the Ric story to deal with it. 

The idea that Dick "needs his own city" is such an antiquated and dated idea too. He's better off being free, which is fitting for a kid that grew up in a traveling circus, and be able to go anywhere in the DCU where he is needed instead of being tied down to a city with no interesting villains, characters, or stories to support it even after years and years of stories. No creator is chomping at the bits to write about Bludhaven, and the reason every new creator tries to retool the city is because its foundation is so weak and ill-supported they feel like they have to. 

When Dick is in Bludhaven they always feel the need to give him some worthless day job and tell the same retread stories over and over copying what a Daredevil already did. His character would be better served having no worthless city to hold him back and he can go where he is needed and creators are free to tell more variety of stories. If you desperately need him to have a "home base" then Gotham or the Titans headquarters is more than enough.

----------


## AmiMizuno

that would be interesting he stays from city to city living off the land. I mean if he needed a job why not teaching people acrobats

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Nightwing impersonators aren't Titans characters so DC won't kill them off.


New 52 jokers was not afraid to murder his childhood crush, associates and burn down his circuses

----------


## Restingvoice

> New 52 jokers was not afraid to murder his childhood crush, associates and burn down his circuses


I think they meant DC doesn't care enough to kill them off, unlike Titans characters who are perceived as making the League look old. They don't matter as much.

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## AmiMizuno

How do we make DIck's city important to the character? Do we make him get a job? Make him a cop again or make him help those less fortunate?

----------


## bearman

Moving to Metropolis would give Dick a chance to interact with Clark and family, plus expose him to all the weird science that happens there, reminiscent of his Spyral days.

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## AmiMizuno

> Moving to Metropolis would give Dick a chance to interact with Clark and family, plus expose him to all the weird science that happens there, reminiscent of his Spyral days.


I don't know wouldn't that also cause him to run into Superman's legacy and shadow too? Maybe the best would be somewhere in the middle. That he is in a darker part of Metropolis where Superman doesn't go much because he looks okay. The only issue is Supergirl and a few others are there so Dick being that might be a little over crowed.

----------


## WonderNight

> How do we make DIck's city important to the character? Do we make him get a job? Make him a cop again or make him help those less fortunate?


The titans show shows why dick being a cop or 9 to 5 don't work.

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## nhienphan2808

> I don't know wouldn't that also cause him to run into Superman's legacy and shadow too? Maybe the best would be somewhere in the middle. That he is in a darker part of Metropolis where Superman doesn't go much because he looks okay. The only issue is Supergirl and a few others are there so Dick being that might be a little over crowed.


No because Superman isnt an asshole who makes everything about himself and shadow everyone like Batman is. I mean i dont know the current Superman and how they wrote him badly too, but reestablishing Clark and Dick's relationship would be good for both. Dick needs light and space and adventures, and Superman shines even more as a hero when he interacts right with Dick.

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## Godlike13

Metropolis might be fun in the beginning but eventually it’ll run into the same problems as Bludhaven. We have seen them move Dick to different cities, if they are gonna change things they need to deviate from the whole idea of him protecting a singular city or neighborhood in general.

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## AmiMizuno

So should he live in a city or no city? Or do we just revise him being in Bludhaven? Why not a teacher? Wouldn't he benefit from a job that is a little like his old life? Maybe an acrobat teacher?

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## Godlike13

He can live in a city, but it doesn’t need to be his objective as a superhero.

----------


## Ascended

> Bludhaven is nowhere near important enough to Dick the way Metropolis is for Superman or Central/Keystone is to the Flashes.
> 
> He has no consistent ties there. No consistent worthwhile supporting cast or villains. All his important life events and relationships are either in Gotham, wherever the Titans are at or even Metropolis with his Uncle Superman. Bludhaven is dead weight and it should never have been brought back IMO.


I think thematically Dick moving to his own city was important. It's a staple in the hero community and for younger heroes making it out on their own it's a bit of a milestone. I think it needed to be done. I don't think it's necessarily something that needs to be done now, but I think everyone needed to see Dick owning his own territory.

Creatively, Bludhaven isn't dead or bankrupt, it's just been in poor hands (just like Nightwing himself). Ultimately, it's just a setting and a setting can be good bad or indifferent depending on the writer. 




> The Nightwing impersonators aren't Titans characters so DC won't kill them off.


One does wonder if they plan on using these guys. Will they be supporting cast members when Dick returns? If 5G is a thing, will they still be Nightwing, since everyone else is getting replaced? 

I know everyone here just wants to see them gone, but I swear to the gods I could use them and make them actually viable. All you need is the right hook.

----------


## Godlike13

You could try but their very presence at this point just serve as a reminder to this run. People will reject them for that alone. And quite frankly, why make use of them. Interest in them is zero and they are completely forgettable. There is no upside to using them. They are poorly thought out and executed by lazy out of touch creators who were either too uninvested or just too dim to understand how ripping off We Are Robin with lazy characters like these was at its very core detrimental to Dick and the Nightwing brand. And then doubling down on stupid by turning Dick into their sidekick. They need to go. There is no logician reason to try and salvage them at this point. The best thing they can do for the title is die.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> He can live in a city, but it doesn’t need to be his objective as a superhero.


Agreed. What should be his objective? Since he wants to be more independent of Bruce. Where or how does he make his money? We know maybe a normal job isn't option.

----------


## Godlike13

He should make his money by gambling  :Cool:

----------


## AmiMizuno

> He should make his money by gambling


Lol. Wait didn't at one point he became a stripper?

----------


## Restingvoice

> How do we make DIck's city important to the character? Do we make him get a job? Make him a cop again or make him help those less fortunate?


Well, the first thing to do is not make him a victim of Batman's story. As one of the closest allies this is is his designated position. 

The second is reestablishing his position in DCU. As the first kid hero, the first leader of the younger generation, and many times the leader of Justice League's main or branch teams, he knows many people should command some respect, not just concerned parental figures. These days Wonder Woman doesn't even know him. 

All these are the hardest, nigh-impossible hurdles because of how DC management views him, but it will open a lot more possibilities than just fighting crimes in Gotham's sister town.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Well, the first thing to do is not make him a victim of Batman's story. As one of the closest allies this is is his designated position. 
> 
> The second is reestablishing his position in DCU. As the first kid hero, the first leader of the younger generation, and many times the leader of Justice League's main or branch teams, he knows many people should command some respect, not just concerned parental figures. These days Wonder Woman doesn't even know him. 
> 
> All these are the hardest, nigh-impossible hurdles because of how DC management views him, but it will open a lot more possibilities than just fighting crimes in Gotham's sister town.


How would you do all this? I mean the main 7 JL members respect him for the most part. Which means he and his Teen Titans could be another line of defense.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How would you do all this? I mean the main 7 JL members respect him for the most part. Which means he and his Teen Titans could be another line of defense.


Since this is more of a management problem than an in-story problem, well, the old folks have to go. I'm guessing waiting for another ten years at least

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lol. Wait didn't at one point he became a stripper?


It was for just a few hours

----------


## king81992

> I think thematically Dick moving to his own city was important. It's a staple in the hero community and for younger heroes making it out on their own it's a bit of a milestone. I think it needed to be done. I don't think it's necessarily something that needs to be done now, but I think everyone needed to see Dick owning his own territory.
> 
> Creatively, Bludhaven isn't dead or bankrupt, it's just been in poor hands (just like Nightwing himself). Ultimately, it's just a setting and a setting can be good bad or indifferent depending on the writer. 
> 
> 
> 
> One does wonder if they plan on using these guys. Will they be supporting cast members when Dick returns? If 5G is a thing, will they still be Nightwing, since everyone else is getting replaced? 
> 
> I know everyone here just wants to see them gone, but I swear to the gods I could use them and make them actually viable. All you need is the right hook.


I have no idea. It's very unusual that we haven't heard any 5G plans for Dick or any of the characters from his generation. I'm wondering if most of them are going to be killed off or imprisoned. Solicits mentioned that the Batman Who Laughs is going to take control of 666 heroes and make them go on a rampage. I won't be surprised if some of those 666 are the Titans characters who haven't been derailed.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait if Dick needs a job maybe a stunt man. It’s a little bit of a flexible job. Or maybe a fitness class.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Wait if Dick needs a job maybe a stunt man. It’s a little bit of a flexible job. Or maybe a fitness class.


His last job before this whole Ric thing is a fitness trainer.

----------


## Jackalope89

> His last job before this whole Ric thing is a fitness trainer.


With, 3 people I think it was. Then he gets King'd.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> His last job before this whole Ric thing is a fitness trainer.


I mean does that job fit him? I mean if he does need a job it would have to fit with his personality.

----------


## Digifiend

Fits him a lot better than being a taxi driver.

----------


## Jackalope89

Honestly, what Young Justice Outsiders did in the beginning of the season fits him much more. Not really a day job, but going all over the place, recruiting friends here and there to help him take out crime hide-outs and catch up.

----------


## Valentonis

> Honestly, what Young Justice Outsiders did in the beginning of the season fits him much more. Not really a day job, but going all over the place, recruiting friends here and there to help him take out crime hide-outs and catch up.


Agreed. I like the idea of Dick using Haly's Circus as a cover for freelance superheroing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Agreed. I like the idea of Dick using Haly's Circus as a cover for freelance superheroing.


Been using this idea every time we're having Dick's Home Base discourse, especially since Haly's the one thing that uniquely his

----------


## Rac7d*

> Agreed. I like the idea of Dick using Haly's Circus as a cover for freelance superheroing.


New 52 didn’t end week

----------


## Rac7d*

> I mean does that job fit him? I mean if he does need a job it would have to fit with his personality.



Yes it did he
Becuase it never got in the way of being a hero he made his own hours

----------


## AmiMizuno

So far it seems even using the circus or fitness trainer. I mean if he did go to the circus again wouldn’t people recognize him? He was adopted by Bruce Wayne and was part of a famous family

----------


## Jackalope89

> So far it seems even using the circus or fitness trainer. I mean if he did go to the circus again wouldn’t people recognize him? He was adopted by Bruce Wayne and was part of a famous family


Which would help in promoting the circus.

----------


## Badou

No more circus, gymnastics trainer, or fitness instructor jobs. I feel like they've done that way too much. Like because he was in the circus as a kid all they can imagine him doing as a job are those things. I give Seeley credit in his Nightwing run with not going down that road and instead tried to make him a counselor, even if I disagree with the idea of giving him a normal job at all. 

I agree with what Jackalope said about YJ Outsiders. It would be my ideal set up. Let him be a full time hero. He doesn't have a personal life or anyone in his life that isn't also a superhero. So it doesn't really make sense to me to waste time trying to build up this thing that isn't an important part of the character. He doesn't seem to have any interest in having a personal life or being anything other than a hero, so let him just act as a hero as he sees fit. He can go on solo missions he views as important, or act as a liaison and coordinator between other heroes to organize bigger missions like in YJ Outsiders. It feels like there is endless potential there. 

I'm not too concerned where he gets the money to fund his missions. I feel like he has the means to deal with it. The Spyral agent stuff gave him the framework to kind of do what we are talking about with their organization supporting him, but I feel like he can do the same things he did there just as Nightwing setting up his own missions and he would be completely happy. You can have him do normal jobs that are part of his mission, like when he was a dealer in a casino tracking Blockbuster, but all those normal jobs are just in service to whatever mission he is currently on.

----------


## Valentonis

> No more circus, gymnastics trainer, or fitness instructor jobs. I feel like they've done that way too much. Like because he was in the circus as a kid all they can imagine him doing as a job are those things. I give Seeley credit in his Nightwing run with not going down that road and instead tried to make him a counselor, even if I disagree with the idea of giving him a normal job at all. 
> 
> I agree with what Jackalope said about YJ Outsiders. It would be my ideal set up. Let him be a full time hero. He doesn't have a personal life or anyone in his life that isn't also a superhero. So it doesn't really make sense to me to waste time trying to build up this thing that isn't an important part of the character. He doesn't seem to have any interest in having a personal life or being anything other than a hero, so let him just act as a hero as he sees fit. He can go on solo missions he views as important, or act as a liaison and coordinator between other heroes to organize bigger missions like in YJ Outsiders. It feels like there is endless potential there. 
> 
> I'm not too concerned where he gets the money to fund his missions. I feel like he has the means to deal with it. The Spyral agent stuff gave him the framework to kind of do what we are talking about with their organization supporting him, but I feel like he can do the same things he did there just as Nightwing setting up his own missions and he would be completely happy. You can have him do normal jobs that are part of his mission, like when he was a dealer in a casino tracking Blockbuster, but all those normal jobs are just in service to whatever mission he is currently on.


I get what you're saying, but I also worry about making him too removed from normal people. One of my biggest pet peeves with modern comics is the lack of attention given to the civilian cast, it feels like these days superheroes only have significant relationships with other superheroes. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in Dick's case he's always been much more grounded and connected to the "common" people relative to the other bats, and I don't want to lose that aspect of his character.

----------


## Godlike13

Has he though? His best friends are all other superheros, same with his most serious relationships. He was raised as a superhero.

----------


## Valentonis

> Has he though? His best friends are all other superheros, same with his most serious relationships. He was raise as a superhero.


I think so at least. I guess characters like Clancy or Mutt from Dixon's run probably aren't very memorable to most people, but its those little interactions and relationships with normal folk that gave that run its texture for me. Not that Dixon's run is my preferred model for Nightwing, and as a superhero its natural that his most important relationships are with other superheroes, but I just don't want them to be his _ only_ relationships, you know?

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean it wouldn't be too hard. I thought about it but than it would be too close to Gordon. What was one of the Bludhaven cops name? What if he was a double agent/ He was just helping Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> Since this is more of a management problem than an in-story problem, well, the old folks have to go. I'm guessing waiting for another ten years at least


Agreed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the character, it's the management that's the problem. 

I dunno if this crew is gonna be around another decade though. Not sure they'll last that long. 




> I have no idea. It's very unusual that we haven't heard any 5G plans for Dick or any of the characters from his generation. I'm wondering if most of them are going to be killed off or imprisoned. Solicits mentioned that the Batman Who Laughs is going to take control of 666 heroes and make them go on a rampage. I won't be surprised if some of those 666 are the Titans characters who haven't been derailed.


They could certainly just kill them off. Play it like them getting killed makes Ric realize that "Dick Grayson's" life will never leave him alone, and the only way to protect the people around him is to become Dick Grayson again. Ric will get the "noble" sacrifice of putting his mind straight so his supporting cast can be protected. Or some such bullsh*t. 

I'm rather impartial to the fate of the faux-wings, as long as Dick gets put back together again. If them sticking around is the price we pay for having the real Nightwing back, I pay it gladly. As long as we get Nightwing, properly written, and not....this mess we've had. As to whether they're worth keeping around at all, they're worth more conceptually as "Nightwing's support team" than they are as characters unto themselves, which means they themselves are worthless. I do see potential in the basics behind the concept of "Team Nightwing" though. Dick has always surrounded himself with a team, and that's where he often is at his best. The way to bring that into his solo book is to give him a small team of supporting characters unrelated to any other franchise or character (not Bats, no Titans) who back him up. Not replacements, not even peers, but something a little more than a sidekick. Whether it's these particular characters or not is largely immaterial. But I gotta be honest, seeing Dick upstage them on every level and boss them around would be pretty cathartic. 




> Honestly, what Young Justice Outsiders did in the beginning of the season fits him much more. Not really a day job, but going all over the place, recruiting friends here and there to help him take out crime hide-outs and catch up.


Yeah, I don't buy into the idea that Dick has to have a "normal" side to his life. I mean, look at this guy's life! Being a superhero *is* the normal side! Dick has tried being a regular dude with a regular job and it fails every single time. All we (and by we I mean DC) have to figure out is how Dick funds his superheroics without taking money from Bruce so he can stand on his own as a property as much as possible. 

But I feel like that's a discussion for the "pitch a direction: Nightwing" thread.

----------


## AmiMizuno

IF anything a job that lets him use all of his abilities works. So I job like a fitness training or arcobat teacher would work.

----------


## Ascended

IF you give Dick a regular job, I agree it's gotta be something that plays to his natural abilities, that is flexible in its schedule, and that can fund his operations as Nightwing (and those gadgets, travel, and tools aren't cheap). 

So something like a Hollywood trainer could work, if you were determined to give Dick a normal person job. I bet the people who keep guys like Chris Hemsworth in shape get paid pretty well, so that could cover some financial stuff (though I doubt it pays enough for a top-of-the-line Nightwing). It plays to all of Dick's strengths as a character. And it could be a lot of fun too. We've seen people in-universe making movies about their heroes. We've seen Clark and Bruce on the set of "Batman-Superman" and quietly laughing at how ridiculously wrong it all is (keeping in mind the people making the movies don't have our knowledge of the heroes). So how fun would it be to see Dick training the actors for those roles? It could make for a fun gag. Imagine a issue opening up with Dick and Batman fighting, only to find out it's just Dick training "Bill Kafflek" in his Batman movie costume.

Something like that could work, though I still don't think a normal person job is the right direction for Dick; I think in this he's very Marvel-like and being a hero *is* his job. Which makes me consider.....why not just do that? Why not have Dick build some form of.....altruistic heroes for hire? He's not really one for business but he *is* capable of managing one (not a strength of his, but he can muddy on), and it plays nicely with the abandoned ideas of Batman Inc and We Are Robin. It even mirrors Deathstroke's mercenary stuff and Slade's got more history with Dick than most villains. Good synergy all around, though how you'd manage to sell it without making Dick look bad for selling his skills is something to consider. The "corporate hero" thing is a niche DC doesn't really have filled at the moment either, especially since Booster became a time master. 

Maybe instead of charging for his services he could be on some kind of retainer? Perhaps.....I dunno, Dick's so capable Argus (or someone) pays him to just be a hero? That'd basically make Nightwing a SHIELD agent I suppose, but that's territory that's worked well in the recent past too, and is (I think) worth going back to.

We really should move this to the "pitch a direction" thread.......

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don't know he is never into the her business for money. Maybe not a normal job.  Something that fits Circus life. I don't know maybe he should return to acrobats. However, I do think before anything is explain we do need to make sure his personality is right. When you think about Dick Grayson. What words do you throw out?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I've always liked the idea of Dick as a coroner. It would give him medical training, which means he could treat a lot of his own injuries. Plus, it would help him as Nightwing to investigate murders.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't know he is never into her business for money. Maybe not a normal job.  Something that fits Circus life. I don't know maybe he should return to acrobats. However, I do think before anything is explain we do need to make sure his personality is right. When you think about Dick Grayson. What words do you throw out?


Kindness, generosity, maturity, acrobat, big brother, young, funny, punny, sexy, listener, leader, messy, balance, height, flying, daring, gentleman...

----------


## Badou

> I get what you're saying, but I also worry about making him too removed from normal people. One of my biggest pet peeves with modern comics is the lack of attention given to the civilian cast, it feels like these days superheroes only have significant relationships with other superheroes. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in Dick's case he's always been much more grounded and connected to the "common" people relative to the other bats, and I don't want to lose that aspect of his character.


He's been around for 80 years with over 20 years of that being a solo character and he doesn't have any consistent civilian cast. I don't expect that to change. Him being a full time hero doesn't mean he can't still interact with civilians, but it would all be in service to whatever his current mission is. Like that Grayson issue where he spent the whole issue holding a baby and walking through the desert. You are just cutting out the fat of trying to give him some personal life and normal job that everyone knows isn't going to stick and focusing more on the aspects that the character does well.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He's been around for 80 years with over 20 years of that being a solo character and he doesn't have any consistent civilian cast. I don't expect that to change. Him being a full time hero doesn't mean he can't still interact with civilians, but it would all be in service to whatever his current mission is. Like that Grayson issue where he spent the whole issue holding a baby and walking through the desert. You are just cutting out the fat of trying to give him some personal life and normal job that everyone knows isn't going to stick and focusing more on the aspects that the character does well.


His most consistent cast came from Dixon run, now he has become such a tool, every writer wants to do their own things so nothing from the previous run carries

----------


## Restingvoice

> He's been around for 80 years with over 20 years of that being a solo character and he doesn't have any consistent civilian cast. I don't expect that to change. Him being a full time hero doesn't mean he can't still interact with civilians, but it would all be in service to whatever his current mission is. Like that Grayson issue where he spent the whole issue holding a baby and walking through the desert. You are just cutting out the fat of trying to give him some personal life and normal job that everyone knows isn't going to stick and focusing more on the aspects that the character does well.


or the old lady that rode an elevator with Nightwing who guesses his secret identity because she saw The Flying Graysons perform and recognize his move, then Dick just straight up confirms it because she's a nice harmless old lady. It's a funny and cute brief character moment.

I guess I can do with that.

I was going to debate that since Dick likes being with people and whenever he moves to Gotham or Bludhaven he always chooses a place to live near the potential crime scene so he knows the world he's living in, he shouldn't be full-time superhero as that's not what he wants, but the story always ends up making him not being able to have a good civilian life anyway, and unlike Bruce whose, obsession with crime and solitary makes it unhealthy, Dick can still fulfill that social needs from his superhero friend circle.

Basically, my main concern with Dick's full-time superhero job is his health. He may not as obsessive as Bruce but he can get obsessed. Meaning whoever it is and whatever his job, he still needs an Alfred, or a Kori, or a Wally. 

(I didn't include Babs since as a Batfam she can have the same obsession problem)

----------


## Aahz

> or the old lady that rode an elevator with Nightwing who guesses his secret identity because she saw The Flying Graysons perform and recognize his move, then Dick just straight up confirms it because she's a nice harmless old lady. It's a funny and cute brief character moment.


The Old Lady was Ma Hunkle, the Original Golden Age Red Tornado, and Curator of the JSA Museum, she was not a random civilian.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The Old Lady was Ma Hunkle, the Original Golden Age Red Tornado, and Curator of the JSA Museum, she was not a random civilian.


Ah well.

Back to my own topic... What would happen if Dick's story developed naturally without company interference?
Would he have married Kori? Then where will they live? Was this before or after Jason died? (if I remember the hair correctly, it's after) What was his relationship with Bruce and Tim at this point?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ah well.
> 
> Back to my own topic... What would happen if Dick's story developed naturally without company interference?
> Would he have married Kori? Then where will they live? Was this before or after Jason died? (if I remember the hair correctly, it's after) What was his relationship with Bruce and Tim at this point?


Maybe?

 But such a hypothetical is kinda of pointless their is always company interference no matter who you are

----------


## Digifiend

> I've always liked the idea of Dick as a coroner. It would give him medical training, which means he could treat a lot of his own injuries. Plus, it would help him as Nightwing to investigate murders.


That wouldn't be a good idea right now, as it would look like they copied Marvel's Valkyrie book, where Jane Foster (who is a doctor) works in a morgue, having been demoted to there because she missed work so much due to her superhero duties.




> I'm rather impartial to the fate of the faux-wings, as long as Dick gets put back together again. If them sticking around is the price we pay for having the real Nightwing back, I pay it gladly. As long as we get Nightwing, properly written, and not....this mess we've had. As to whether they're worth keeping around at all, they're worth more conceptually as "Nightwing's support team" than they are as characters unto themselves, which means they themselves are worthless. I do see potential in the basics behind the concept of "Team Nightwing" though. Dick has always surrounded himself with a team, and that's where he often is at his best. The way to bring that into his solo book is to give him a small team of supporting characters unrelated to any other franchise or character (not Bats, no Titans) who back him up. Not replacements, not even peers, but something a little more than a sidekick. Whether it's these particular characters or not is largely immaterial. But I gotta be honest, seeing Dick upstage them on every level and boss them around would be pretty cathartic.


Well, since they're three cops and a firefighter, it would be easy to keep those four around even if they're not wearing Dick's old costumes any more.

----------


## Katana500

I think a major issue Dick has is his supporting cast frequently being dropped. Every new writer replaces the last writers supporting cast with their own - its an endless cycle. And as a result Dick lacks any independent major supporting characters. Are their any civillians or allies in Bludhaven that are at all recognizeable?

----------


## Restingvoice

How's Dick's relationship with everyone around the time he was going to marry Kori?

----------


## Digifiend

Well, since he hadn't been used in the Bat books for years, he was probably estranged from Bruce and Barbara. It was when they suddenly did decide they wanted to use him that the Kori wedding story was changed to end with the marriage not going ahead. The Titans office had already stopped Dick from being taken back once, as they were going to revert him back to Robin, so they suggested a legacy character instead, causing Jason Todd to be created.

----------


## Aahz

> How's Dick's relationship with everyone around the time he was going to marry Kori?


- Jason was dead
- he and Barbara had iirc not interacted since before COIE
- he and Bruce had iirc interacted the last time in Tim Origin story, so their relation had at least gotten little bit better again
- I think he had some team up with Tim before
- he was never that close with the new members of the Titans (except Kory)
- the Titans were in general not in great shape, after Titans Hunt and Total Chaos

----------


## Digifiend

If it's post-Crisis, had Babs even been reintroduced yet? I know she came back as Oracle in Suicide Squad and not the bat books, and that was a while after the Killing Joke.

----------


## bearman

Certainly a job would keep him grounded... but I find his unwillingness to accept financial support for his mission from Bruce ridiculous.
Bruce did not earn his fortune, it was handed to him from his parents.
For Bruce to help Dick with the profession that he taught him would be a natural turn of events.
For all the angst we fans have about Dick separating himself from Batman, surely, in universe, Dick views Bruce as his brother, and their mission, the same.

----------


## AmiMizuno

He views Bruce as a second father. Him and Dick have a complex relationship. Their mission the same but how both go about it is different. Dick is more optimistic. They often but heads like that.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Certainly a job would keep him grounded... but I find his unwillingness to accept financial support for his mission from Bruce ridiculous.
> Bruce did not earn his fortune, it was handed to him from his parents.
> For Bruce to help Dick with the profession that he taught him would be a natural turn of events.
> For all the angst we fans have about Dick separating himself from Batman, surely, in universe, Dick views Bruce as his brother, and their mission, the same.


Yeah, Dick's relationship to Bruce's money is a very interesting topic for me. Assuming he was brought in by Bruce in his early teenage years, he legitimately has some working class upbringing that would make him uncomfortable with the idea of just living off someone else's money. At the same time, his upbringing in the circus makes it difficult for him to root down in one spot long enough to effectively hold down a job. Also, he really is effectively part of the Wayne family. In universe, most authors agree that the only person closer to Bruce than Dick is Alfred and that Dick, in many ways, saved Bruce from a dark future.

I still think a good compromise here would be Bruce "Hiring" Dick to develop and direct Batman Inc. Dick is hella qualified for the job. Headquarters could easily be in either Bludhaven OR Gotham. Dick can be a costumed hero AND a spy. Only question is whether Batman Inc. needs a name change (to simething like N.I.G.H.T. or Wing Inc.).

----------


## Roliver Queen

> Do we really believe DC will kill off the fake Nightwings? I am pretty sure they will just get knocked out or something as Joker goes after the real deal. I WISH they did get killed because honestly amateurs like them should be way over their heads, and it would highlight how Dick Grayson is the only one suitable for the job as Nightwing and how it is not something any fool who happens upon a costume can do, but that is expecting way too much from DC. They will probably keep them around and claim they have crated a rich environment for Dick with many new popular side characters...


I thought the point of the Talon Arc was to get rid of the Nightwings but that doesn't seem to be the case. I do believe they have overstayed their welcome and there's no weight behind them. I'm actually surprised at this point that word hasn't gotten to Batman about these faux Nightwings and he hasn't intervened. I'm sure this will happen in some shape or form when Tynion tackles Dick's restoration in Nightwing. Say what you want, they're pretty established in the book so killing them off before then would just be pointless. Might as well use them in the seg way. 




> Moving to Metropolis would give Dick a chance to interact with Clark and family, plus expose him to all the weird science that happens there, reminiscent of his Spyral days.


Idk how that would work. Both Action and Comics and The Main Superman books contradict whats happening now, thanks to Bendis. Do we really want Nightwing entangled in all of this?

----------


## Restingvoice

> - Jason was dead
> - he and Barbara had iirc not interacted since before COIE
> - he and Bruce had iirc interacted the last time in Tim Origin story, so their relation had at least gotten little bit better again
> - I think he had some team up with Tim before
> - he was never that close with the new members of the Titans (except Kory)
> - the Titans were in general not in great shape, after Titans Hunt and Total Chaos


There's also Year 3 when Dick confronted Bruce after he thought he let Zucco died, was that before or after Tim? I think before because it looks like the first time they met after Jason died.

This new generation of Titans, are these the ones that include Mirage and Pantha?

There was a Titans Hunt back then too? I only know the Rebirth.




> If it's post-Crisis, had Babs even been reintroduced yet? I know she came back as Oracle in Suicide Squad and not the bat books, and that was a while after the Killing Joke.


She has. There's a Batgirl one-shot early on, I think in 1984 telling the story of the first time she became Batgirl in post-crisis. 

Then, after he's gone missing for a while after killing Jason, there's an arc about Joker coming back, and Gordon has to break the news to Barbara, who's already in the wheelchair. I think it's pretty early on when Tim's not allowed to go out in costume yet but I don't remember.

----------


## WonderNight

Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.

----------


## Valentonis

> He's been around for 80 years with over 20 years of that being a solo character and he doesn't have any consistent civilian cast. I don't expect that to change. Him being a full time hero doesn't mean he can't still interact with civilians, but it would all be in service to whatever his current mission is. Like that Grayson issue where he spent the whole issue holding a baby and walking through the desert. You are just cutting out the fat of trying to give him some personal life and normal job that everyone knows isn't going to stick and focusing more on the aspects that the character does well.


You're 100% correct. When you put it like that I actually really like the sound of it. I guess that's why I like the idea of him using Haly's Circus to cover as a traveling hero. It gives him the flexibility to be a relatively full time superhero and go where the mission takes him, while still allowing him to be around normal people and supers alike.

----------


## Ascended

> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


I have no idea what 5G will do, if it even happens or ends up being any of the things rumors claim it is. 

I'm sure that if it happens, no matter what shape it takes 5G will be bad for Dick. No real reason to assume DC has changed their priorities and Didio seems to really enjoy driving Dick into the mud. 

If Dick's replaced I won't be reading the book. Not reading it now either. 

If someone else does become Nightwing, for my money it has to be a Kryptonian. Yes yes, Dick's the guy who owns the name and the actual origins of Nightwing are so far back in Silver Age history no one cares. But none of the Bats are close to Dick anymore, and none of them have "done right" by him to the point where they'd deserve to take up his mantle. I can see an argument for Damian, but that kid is Robin and should remain Robin. Tim might have been a viable choice once but he and Dick haven't been close since.....gods, since Tim became Red Robin I guess. And the fact that "Ric" has been abandoned by his family means that none of them are worthy of using the Nightwing name.

If anyone takes the name, the only people who have any real right to it at all are Kryptonian. Conner or Jon, Kara, even Power Girl, they all have better reasons to take the name than anyone in the Batcave. And even then, it's thin reasoning built on nothing more than old mythology from their home world.

Nightwing isn't meant to be a legacy mantle. Nightwing was all about forging your own identity and role and direction, not following someone else's footsteps. The only human who gets to use it is Dick Grayson. Not a bunch of random cops in Bludhaven, not anyone in the Batcave.

----------


## Godlike13

5 someone elses are currently Nightwing, Dick is their sidekick the Cabbie....

----------


## Rakiduam

> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


5G is going to be bad for the character because DC edditorial has proved it only get worse, Dick is already not Nightwing so it is pretty irrelevant but why Stephanie of all people?

----------


## king81992

> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


I have no clue. Chances are it won't benefit him or his generation. It's unusual that there's been no mention of Dick in the potential 5G plans we've heard.

----------


## Valentonis

As far as 5G goes, I imagine that Dick will only be relevant insofar as to explain why he can't be the new Batman. I just hope it's not in the form of Luke or whoever else kicking his butt like they always do when they want to establish a new bat character

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #67 preview

https://www.weirdsciencedccomics.com...htwing-67.html

----------


## dietrich

> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


As much as I would love to see Damian deciding to don the Blue and Blacks after his mentor I just want Dick Grayson as Nightwing. I'm hoping not all heroes will be affected by 5g. Hoping it'll  be select stories from different eras.

If Dick does end up affected, it's only 6 years so he doesn't need to hang up his hero costume just yet.

After Ric and the Nightwings the last thing I want is someone else taking taking over so soon.

----------


## WonderNight

> 5G is going to be bad for the character because DC edditorial has proved it only get worse, Dick is already not Nightwing so it is pretty irrelevant but why Stephanie of all people?


I just like that stephanie saw her future self as nightwing and I liked the costume, But yea with 5g on the way I don't get why some people are happy he's coming back in 2020 when by the time he gets back 5g will be starting up.

----------


## WonderNight

> As much as I would love to see Damian deciding to don the Blue and Blacks after his mentor I just want Dick Grayson as Nightwing. I'm hoping not all heroes will be affected by 5g. Hoping it'll  be select stories from different eras.
> 
> If Dick does end up affected, it's only 6 years so he doesn't need to hang up his hero costume just yet.
> 
> After Ric and the Nightwings the last thing I want is someone else taking taking over so soon.


does 5g have a 6 year time jump?

----------


## Badou

> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


Dick is irrelevant in the wider DCU and DC events. He pretty much is completely overlooked or ignored in these big DC stories and I don't see that changing with 5G. So he will probably still be Nightwing as we already have had a year and a half of other people running around as Nightwing instead of him. Anyone new taking on the identity has kind of been spoiled now with the stupid cop Nightwings. 

I would bet that Jurgens is going to stay on the book and I fear that he is going to try and use his ideas from Batman Beyond with Dick as he views his Beyond story as being canon. So Dick will still be stuck in Bludhaven and maybe try and become mayor of it for some dumb reason, or on his way to try and become that. Since maybe 5G will take place in the future. 




> You're 100% correct. When you put it like that I actually really like the sound of it. I guess that's why I like the idea of him using Haly's Circus to cover as a traveling hero. It gives him the flexibility to be a relatively full time superhero and go where the mission takes him, while still allowing him to be around normal people and supers alike.


I just don't think Haly's Circus is a strong enough setting to base the character there for the long term. I really have no interest in seeing Dick try and own and operate the circus again. That will just end up being a mess. I think the circus is perfect as a place Dick can go to in order to get away from his current problems. Like the Kent farm for Superman. A place that is his and cut off from all the other hectic things in his life. Taking that and immersing it in the drama and chaos of his normal life will only lead to disappointment I feel like. 

I'd still just have him be a full time hero that goes where he wants to help people. Like in YJ Outsiders. He doesn't need a hook or a gimmick to operate out of and he is free to do what he wants without being tethered to a setting or location that limits him. Like lets say there is a villain using a business to cover up some crime he is doing and Dick can infiltrate the business as a normal employee and take down the villain from the inside. So you get Dick having a "normal" job and interacting with civilians, but all of this is in service to the mission he is on, and it is a formula you can change and manipulate to fit nearly any story you want. You can have him do this on his own or coordinate this with other heroes. Basically you are taking the best aspects from when he was working in Spyral, but removing the situation of him working for an organization he doesn't agree with.

----------


## Robanker

Spoilers for Last Knight on Earth #3, but... *spoilers:*
 DC had several chances to kill Dick this time around and didn't. It's sad how relieved I was by the end of it all.
*end of spoilers*

Furthermore, I want Nightwing to just be Dick's mantle and for his influence on Damian be that he finally stops living in other people's shadow (Robin, the next Batman or Ras depending on timeline) and make something for himself. Granted, he's inspired by a Kryptonian hero, but Dick outgrew being someone's partner or heir and went his own direction. More than anything, that's what Damian lacks; he's always in someone's footsteps. More than just becoming Nightwing, he should find his own way.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


6 years from now he's still only early to mid thirties. Still sexy enough to wear a Nightwing costume. So still in Bludhaven. Doing whatever. 

If the Nightwings and Bea don't get crowbarred by The Joker he may share his identity and team up with them.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, both Dick and Jason probably won't be affected. Tim and Damian are more likely to be impacted. Tim recently changed his codename to Drake, but his Young Justice team will probably drastically change. Damian will age out of the Robin role. Batgirl is a complete toss up. Babs would be in her 30s too and really ought to either ditch the cowl and become Oracle again or upgrade to Batwoman. Which would free up the Batgirl name for Orphan or Spoiler.

----------


## Digifiend

Ric haters, we may have some good news. Last issue Dick got brainwashed to become a Talon. In today's issue 67...
*spoilers:*
Condor Red snaps him out of it. The issue ends with him asking Grayson who he is. Will he answer Dick or Ric? We see him maskless but he doesn't reply, I guess we'll find out in the opening page of issue 68.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Roliver Queen

> Do we really believe DC will kill off the fake Nightwings? I am pretty sure they will just get knocked out or something as Joker goes after the real deal. I WISH they did get killed because honestly amateurs like them should be way over their heads, and it would highlight how Dick Grayson is the only one suitable for the job as Nightwing and how it is not something any fool who happens upon a costume can do, but that is expecting way too much from DC. They will probably keep them around and claim they have crated a rich environment for Dick with many new popular side characters...





> Moving to Metropolis would give Dick a chance to interact with Clark and family, plus expose him to all the weird science that happens there, reminiscent of his Spyral days.





> Hey what do you guys think will happen to dick in 5g. Will he still be nightwing or be replaced, And if he's replaced as nightwing who would you want or be cool with replacing him? For me it's Damian or stephanie.


With the whole debacle surrounding Ric, I'm willing to bet they're gonna keep him as is. I like the potential of him and Luke Fox occasionally or regularly bouncing off of each other.

----------


## Godlike13

> Ric haters, we may have some good news. Last issue Dick got brainwashed to become a Talon. In today's issue 67...
> *spoilers:*
> Condor Red snaps him out of it. The issue ends with him asking Grayson who he is. Will he answer Dick or Ric? We see him maskless but he doesn't reply, I guess we'll find out in the opening page of issue 68.
> *end of spoilers*


We know the answer. Ric has months left still. You guys need to stop with this false hope. This Talon shit was always just a life line for Ric, not the return of Dick.

BTW the issue itself was one of the worst things I ever read.
*spoilers:*
 Who the hell is Condor Red, and how does anyone allow Jurgan’s to pull such a nonsensical ass pull like that. This is terrible storytelling 101. This whole story, and thanks to Jurgans retcon the creation of Ric, has been rendered useless cause some random guy just happen to be flying over. Like holy shit this is new levels of awful writing. On top of that there is Talon just letting Bea stand there so he can narrate to her lol, and in the end the Court just looks like the most incompetent organization to go through all this for it to immediately fail.
*end of spoilers* 

Seriously the writing on this is new levels of bad. Seriously is there no one around to tell Jurgan’s no one knows who that is, and it makes no goddamn sense.

----------


## Digifiend

If you read the solicits, you'd know that by March he's struggling with two sets of memories. January and February were probably just vague to avoid spoilers. He's definitely on his way back. It's just a matter of how soon.

----------


## Valentonis

> We know the answer. Ric has months left still. You guys need to stop with this false hope. This Talon shit was always just a life line for Ric, not the return of Dick.
> 
> BTW the issue itself was one of the worst things I ever read.
> *spoilers:*
>  Who the hell is Condor Red, and how does anyone allow Jurgan’s to pull such a nonsensical ass pull like that. This is terrible storytelling 101. This whole story, and thanks to Jurgans retcon the creation of Ric, has been rendered useless cause some random guy just happen to be flying over. Like holy shit this is new levels of awful writing. On top of that there is Talon just letting Bea stand there so he can narrate to her lol, and in general the Cout looking like the most incompetent orginazaion to go threw all this for it to immediately fail .
> *end of spoilers* 
> 
> Seriously the writing on this is new levels of bad. Seriously is there no one around to tell Jurgan’s no one knows who that is, and it makes no goddamn sense.


Thank you for your service of reading this so we don't have to :Big Grin:

----------


## Lazurus33

SPOILER

Doomsday Clock #12

34.jpg

----------


## Badou

It is irrelevant what memories Dick has now because that isn't the goal of the book anymore. They are just dragging out the story to last until the Summer's 5G thing when they can give the character a new direction again. This is all just filler. This whole Talon story and the upcoming Joker one. It is all irrelevant. The character is still dealing with the same crap he has been since the start of this Ric story. It is pathetic.

----------


## Restingvoice

> SPOILER
> 
> Doomsday Clock #12
> 
> 34.jpg


Classic Batgirl outfit. Interesting... and... Nubia?
Who's blue and black woman?

That last panel... oh ffs

----------


## Godlike13

> If you read the solicits, you'd know that by March he's struggling with two sets of memories. January and February were probably just vague to avoid spoilers. He's definitely on his way back. It's just a matter of how soon.


Dude, if Dick returned the marketing solicitation people would probably be shouting it in big bold print. The books rank is in the toilet. We know Ric is still being dragged out till at least March. And the way the Nightwing team drags out a story Ric could be struggling with memories till 2021. They are just treading water till Batman figures out what it wants to do. This here at the end was the return of Ric. The whole theme of the story here is how the Court is underestimating how powerful who Dick has now become as Ric in their attempt to remake him into who they want. Of course to irony is Ric is someone no one wants, but these creators could give a shit about that.

----------


## Frontier

> Who's blue and black woman?


Shadow Lass.

----------


## CPSparkles

Some nice Nightwing fan art







https://twitter.com/02png




https://twitter.com/schwarz96

----------


## CPSparkles

> Classic Batgirl outfit. Interesting... and... Nubia?
> Who's blue and black woman?
> 
> That last panel... oh ffs


Also is that Jackson Hyde and Luke Fox?

----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/GlebMelnikov8





https://twitter.com/akkiyamia


Young Titans




https://twitter.com/gothamtwinks

----------


## Restingvoice

> Also is that Jackson Hyde and Luke Fox?


Luke is flying, yeah. Jackson, maybe? He's wearing mostly civvies so I can't tell... maybe because they haven't decided yet if he was going to have a crew cut or dreads. He started out with a crew cut following Young Justice Kaldur but the most recent solicit have him return to his original dreads. So yeah, I think it is Jackson and they didn't know how they should depict him yet.

----------


## Godlike13

Batman Last Knight had the best Dick of the week. Bryce is interesting lol.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, good. I usually like how Snyder's Dick is written despite the slapping or punching, in fact, it's always the other characters that look bad when Dick gets punched.

Back to my previous question, where were Dick and Kori living leading up to their failed marriage? Was it the same apartment from NTT and during Jason's Post Crisis reintroduction? New York?

----------


## Ascended

> Also is that Jackson Hyde and Luke Fox?


Yes it is. Luke's in the Batwing armor (above Wonder Woman) and Aqualad is by Aquaman and Jay Garrick. 

I haven't read Clock 12 yet so I'm missing the full context here, other than the exposition we can see. But given this whole story has been about the metaverse and constant history alterations, and given the fact that Johns' position in the company seems to be quite different than it was when Clock started, can we really take this image too seriously as a sign of things to come? Yes it mentions 5G and what appears to be a six year time skip (which would support some of the rumors) and a five year plan. But could this be more of a figurative image than a literal one? Is it less a "this is what we're doing next with these specific characters in these exact costumes" and more "the DCU changes all the time but always marches on so here's *a* version of a bunch of heroes marching on, and now here's a teaser for our next Event that editorial made me include"? It's like at the end of Johns' Green Lantern run, he provided the epilogues for the Lanterns but none of that stuff actually came to pass. 

I'd believe this is a literal teaser of DC's plans, except it looks like Johns' plans for the DCU that he started in Rebirth are no longer on the table and the "secret Crisis" sounds an awful lot like it involves Avengers. And Wonder Woman is wearing pants, and Dick is Nightwing. Those are two things DC really doesn't like doing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes it is. Luke's in the Batwing armor (above Wonder Woman) and Aqualad is by Aquaman and Jay Garrick. 
> 
> I haven't read Clock 12 yet so I'm missing the full context here, other than the exposition we can see. But given this whole story has been about the metaverse and constant history alterations, and given the fact that Johns' position in the company seems to be quite different than it was when Clock started, can we really take this image too seriously as a sign of things to come? Yes it mentions 5G and what appears to be a six year time skip (which would support some of the rumors) and a five year plan. But could this be more of a figurative image than a literal one? Is it less a "this is what we're doing next with these specific characters in these exact costumes" and more "the DCU changes all the time but always marches on so here's *a* version of a bunch of heroes marching on, and now here's a teaser for our next Event that editorial made me include"? It's like at the end of Johns' Green Lantern run, he provided the epilogues for the Lanterns but none of that stuff actually came to pass. 
> 
> I'd believe this is a literal teaser of DC's plans, except it looks like Johns' plans for the DCU that he started in Rebirth are no longer on the table and the "secret Crisis" sounds an awful lot like it involves Avengers. And Wonder Woman is wearing pants, and Dick is Nightwing. Those are two things DC really doesn't like doing.


Yeah, I think this is kinda like those Rebirth teaser images when it first came out
"These are characters that will be available and this will probably be how they look like, but what kind of role they play or how significant remains to be seen"

----------


## Jackalope89

> Dude, if Dick returned the marketing solicitation people would probably be shouting it in big bold print. The books rank is in the toilet. We know Ric is still being dragged out till at least March. And the way the Nightwing team drags out a story Ric could be struggling with memories till 2021. They are just treading water till Batman figures out what it wants to do. This here at the end was the return of Ric. The whole theme of the story here is how the Court is underestimating how powerful who Dick has now become as Ric in their attempt to remake him into who they want. Of course to irony is Ric is someone no one wants, but these creators could give a shit about that.


The sad part is, I've seen fanfics handle the amnesia thing better then DC has. Some focus heavily on it, others have it as more of a subplot.

----------


## AmiMizuno

It seems maybe Nightwing will be getting something. We see him in his costume.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12...edium=facebook



It seems Dick mostly will be moved with Batman in the Black label also if he is there.

----------


## Restingvoice

I decided to search for it myself. Got nothing on the apartment yet, but CBR made an article on what happened to Nightwing around the time of his marriage to Kori, which apparently took place around KnightQuest/KnightSend as Bruce couldn't attend because of his injury from Bane.

"After his marriage to Starfire in New Titans #100 in 1993 was interrupted, he was sort of in limbo for a year, with a few guest appearances here and there.
And after he was completely written out of New Titans, he had a storyline filling in for Batman post-Knight's End and Zero Hour. And then he was back to limbo for most of 1995 until finally he got a new costume and his first mini-series in late 1995. It was still another year before he gained his own ongoing series in late 1996.

However, a lot of the reasons for why Nightwing was in such a state of limbo state in the beginning of the 90s was because the original plans for the character fell through.

Originally, writer/artist Art Thibert was going to do a Nightwing mini-series that would run in 1992, concurrently with New Titans #93-99.

The series, co-written with Pamela Winesette, was about an alien invasion of Earth that led to Starfire being captured and Nightwing has to save her. The main point of the series was to establish Nightwing as an extremely competent hero, and to do so on the largest of scales - in front of the entire superhero community.

At the end of the series, Dick would have a newfound confidence and would ask Starfire to marry him, she'd accept, and this would all lead into New Titans #100, which would be the marriage of Nightwing and Starfire, which would be handled much like Donna Troy and Terry Long's marriage in Tales of the New Teen Titans #50.

Of course, the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry, and in this instance, the editor who was driving the project, Jonathan Peterson, left DC for Image Comics in 1992. Thibert had already put off doing the mini-series for a time because of a commitment to Marvel for a Cable ongoing series, but he ended up dropping both series to ALSO go to Image Comics.

So the new editors instead had New Titans writer Marv Wolfman have a wedding ceremony go awry in New Titans #100 (the minister was murdered by a newly-evil Raven) and the character of Nightwing had a bit of a delay on his road to prominence."

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-195/2/
https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...and-nightwing/

That's a lot more behind the scenes than I thought, and wow were they unlucky that Nightwing editor and artist just have to leave, but I wonder when Batfamily editor's plan to bring Nightwing back to their department comes in because Wolfman didn't have to break them up.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Who should be Nightwing's editor?

----------


## Restingvoice

"The weird part was that there was no 'official" breakup. After the wedding fiasco, they were supposed to have a rooftop meeting and talk it out but Kory just didn't show up. 

She flew off, apparently to the Amazon, because she was going through some sort of Tamaranian coming of age event, which involved her flipping out and becoming more feral. She even burned off most of her hair with a star bolt, so for a short time, she had shorter hair. 

Dick Grayson tracks her down and she doesn't remember him. 

She eventually leaves the planet, marries a Tamaranian general; at one point she says she's in love with him, and at another, she said it was sort of political. 

At one point in the story she is supposed to be pregnant (presumably her husband's child, but then it is retconned to be the good bit of Raven's soul, which was transmitted when Raven attacked/ kissed her at the wedding.  

The book was going downhill at the time, so it's hard to remember exactly what happened."

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/starf...eak-up-601234/

Wow, that's a whole lotta stupid. No wonder the book's going downhill.

Edit:

"The plan for the rooftop meeting was after the Tamaranian coming of age event

It was not before

She regained her memory after she was kissed by a hero

She was being attacked and she was rescued and taken to the ship, and the crew eventually helped her regain her memories

after that, she realized that she and Dick were not ready to be marred and too young

she also felt that Earth was no longer her home for she belongs in Tamaran"

Okay, that's a bit better, but now I don't know where to start.
The reason I'm looking for this is because I'm making my own story. What would happen? How would it happen?

But before that, I need to know when or where the interference started to come in. I don't have a problem if they change plans because real-life problems affect the plot, my problem is with deliberate interference, such as editorial forcing an edict that doesn't match the character's actions, or if the writers are writing out of character.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I wish they would have done the wedding. Maybe one day.

----------


## Restingvoice

"The Conclusion of the Titan Hunt in The New Titans issue #84 had Dick reunited with Kory and other captured Titans in Azarath, but Raven is completely taken over by Trigon. 

Dick and Kory's relationship goes downhill with Kory still being affected by what happened to her in Azarath and Mirage disguising herself as Kory and having sex with Dick. After the events with Mirage, Kory feels insecure about Dick's love for her even though Dick is still in love with her. Still feeling hurt and hating he didn't know he had been with Mirage and she can recognize everything about him, she breaks up with him in New Titans issue #97. 

In the New Titans issue #99, Dick desperately tries to get back together with Kory and he even goes to a club dressed up as Nightwing and tries to talk to her when Kory was with a friend watching a show. Kory doesn't want to talk to him until later. Nightwing comes off a bit possessive, and her friend intervenes. Nightwing gets violent with him. Kory blasts him with a star bolt. Not long after, he shows up at Kory's apartment at 3:30 AM and tells Kory that he loves and needs her, admitted that he was thinking with his hormones and not his head in regards to not being able to know that he was having sex with somebody disguised as Kory, saying his morality makes him a one-woman man and that she's that woman and will always be, and asking her to marry him leading to the last page of Dick and Kory in each other's arms kissing. Obviously, Kory accepted Dick's marriage proposal."

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/starf...eak-up-601234/

That rape was the lead up to the marriage?! Wow, that's bad.

"Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. 

The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup."

There it is! I mean it's speculation but I won't be surprised if it's true since that sounds similar to what Didio did to Steph leading up to her death. Making things deliberately bad.

Edit:
http://www.titanstower.com/nightwing...es-plans-1991/
They got the approval of Marv Wolfman to marry Dick and Kori and launch a Nightwing mini. He's enthusiastic. 
Then it all went to *****
Yeah, that whole Mirage and Marriage thing sounds definitely enforced now.

So I guess what would've happened is that. Dick will have his first series as a married couple with Kori and stays in the Titans editorial. 

How would the history of DCU have been much different then? We know now his first solo series will have him as a couple with Kori, but would he have gone back to Gotham to do Prodigal? I think so, it makes sense to his character.

So now that's all over, my next question is, how did Bludhaven came in?

----------


## Jackalope89

Bludhaven? Eh. Probably so editorial could give the illusion of Dick being on his own, but obviously close enough to still be dragged back into the Bat fold when demanded.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Bludhaven? Eh. Probably so editorial could give the illusion of Dick being on his own, but obviously close enough to still be dragged back into the Bat fold when demanded.


Which is why it would be easier to change the personality of the city. It can't be Gothman since Dick isn't always angry and grim. Somewhere where there is happiness. But there is corruption. The vegas setting makes sense.

----------


## Restingvoice

"When the mastermind Blockbuster started making moves into Blüdhaven, so too did Nightwing who was following up on the murder of 21 gang members who had washed up in Gotham City's estuary."

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bludhaven

"Approximately 33 minutes' drive from Gotham City, Nightwing moved here initially to help Batman solve a string of murders related to a thoroughly corrupt police force, only to remain there to carve out his own reputation away from either Batman or the Titans."

https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Bl%C3%BCdhaven

So that's the in-story reason for the move. 
Heh.
Well, it's different from Titans, sure but it fails on the Batman part, at least visually.

Would he have moved to Bludhaven with Kori if they're happily married in... let's just say New York until I confirm where they live during the days leading up to their wedding

Wait, back up a bit

Would he have played Batman during Prodigal after he's married? I think he would. He's not gonna stop helping Bruce just because he's married. He's his dad. 
He might not say "I would die for you, Bruce" so easily now that he has a wife, but he's still gonna help. After that though, he'll go back to Kori.

----------


## Jackalope89

> "When the mastermind Blockbuster started making moves into Blüdhaven, so too did Nightwing who was following up on the murder of 21 gang members who had washed up in Gotham City's estuary."
> 
> https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bludhaven
> 
> "Approximately 33 minutes' drive from Gotham City, Nightwing moved here initially to help Batman solve a string of murders related to a thoroughly corrupt police force, only to remain there to carve out his own reputation away from either Batman or the Titans."
> 
> https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Bl%C3%BCdhaven
> 
> So that's the in-story reason for the move. 
> ...


And he could still mentor Damian in Bruce's absence. He just would have Kori there as well. Which would make for some interesting scenes too.

----------


## K7P5V

> Which is why it would be easier to change the personality of the city. It can't be Gothman since Dick isn't always angry and grim. Somewhere where there is happiness. But there is corruption. The vegas setting makes sense.


Agreed. Seemingly, that _Vegas set-up_ for Bludhaven had a lot of potential.

----------


## Restingvoice

"Contrary to what you might expect, Dick’s exodus from Gotham actually had nothing to do with any bad blood with Bruce. Quite the opposite—Dick’s move to Blüdhaven was actually done as a favor to Bruce.

The move itself happened officially on the pages of NIGHTWING #1 back in 1996. This was Dick’s first ever solo ongoing series, coming hot on the heels of a handful of one shots and limited series, and massive Batfamily events like “Contagion.” All things considered, this was a pretty healthy time as far as family relationships were concerned through the entire family, and despite the occasional near death experience and world-threatening catastrophe, things between Nightwing and Batman were pretty good.

So, it’s in the spirit of this relative goodwill that Bruce decides to send Dick on what will undoubtedly prove to be one of the most challenging solo missions of his superheroic career. A string of murdered corpses have washed up in Gotham’s bay, and the trail leads right back down the coast to—you guessed it—Blüdhaven. What’s worse, the murders all have the makings of a major shift in the power scheme of the underworld, and it looks like they might all lead back to the dangerous super villain Black Mask."

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2016/1...n-to-bludhaven

There it is. Going to Bludhaven was actually a mission from Bruce, or at least something he offers, that he asked Dick to help, even if he decides to stay later on to make something of himself, on top of the fact that he's fully part of the Batfam now. 

That's why they didn't make much of an attempt to differentiate Bludhaven and Gotham. Since it's part of the same family, branding wise it's actually more beneficial to have it's similar to Gotham, much like why Nightwing's costume is black and blue following Bruce's own dark and blue. It makes them part of the same group, the same world. That costume was designed post-wedding, post-Prodigal when Dick is already fully part of the Batman family.

So now that I fully understand the how and why they're all designed that way...

I have no problem with Bludhaven being as it was in the 90s, as it was designed to fit the Batman family in mind. There is no plan to make Nightwing stand out from the family, it's to blend him in aesthetically and branding-wise, while at the same creating a narrative that fits a young adult trying to make a name of himself. There's nothing wrong with that... back then.

Now though, now that he's been Robin, Nightwing, Titans leader, Batman, League leader, and secret agent, I feel like he's more than Bludhaven, more than someone who should be similar to Batman or someone who should stay in a city that's uniform to Batman, and definitely shouldn't be under Batman. 

I've decided. I don't want Bludhaven. Vegas Bludhaven doesn't match the name anyway. Dark Bludhaven fits the name better, but that was then, designed for Dick's life story and state back then. If we go by everything is canon, then Dark Bludhaven should've been a chemo crater by now anyway. It's not something a Dick-of-Every-Canon can go back to.

So... now what? 

When he returned from Spyral, he stays at his apartment in Gotham, but with Titans reestablished, I think for now he should go stay in New York at Titans Tower with them.
...
I think we're back where we started before Dick married Kori. Huh. Neat.

...but if you want his own independent city, then I want to design it from the ground up. 
Something that can exist between Titans/League, Batman family and Spyral

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Agreed. Seemingly, that _Vegas set-up_ for Bludhaven had a lot of potentials.


The thing is now Las Vegas and Bludhaven. Where do similarities start and end? We need to make sure yea it's Las Vegas inspired but it's not Las Vegas.

----------


## K. Jones

Dick had his Nightwing garb all through Doomsday Clock. Nothing about it's wrap up indicates that it takes place "after" the rest of the DCU catches up anymore so I think it's fair to figure Snyder era New Justice books and Bendis Super books, and the Ric Grayson ... Err ... "Saga" ... Are after Manhattan reverses Rebirth.

Everyone welcoming back the JSA in DC then forgetting them during Snyder Crisis can be chalked up to a hiccup in time resetting.

----------


## Restingvoice

Speaking of Doomsday Clock, with JSA and Wonder Woman restored to the timeline of this Earth as participating in World War II, we're in the new timeline.

In Dick's case, his canon status now is becoming Robin in Year 3, formed the original Teen Titans a year later, met Barbara a few years later, formed New Teen Titans, became Nightwing in The Judas Contract around the same time Jason became Robin, went through No Man's Land, Infinite Crisis, then after Final Crisis and Flashpoint he became Batman for a year, return as Nightwing, went through the Court of Owls, and now here we are with Hell Arisen.

----------


## Badou

I don't think that canon is correct. Judas Contract is still a story that doesn't fit in with modern canon. I guess if Priest's Lazarus Contract story is erased now from the current canon then maybe a version of some type of Judas Contract story happened, but then does that mean Terra is dead again now? Is Beast Boy still as young as he is in Rebirth? Is Rose missing an eye again? Has Dick been to Bludhaven before Seeley's Rebirth story? Does Dick become Batman after Flashpoint make sense if Bruce was already back at the end of Flashpoint? And so many more things that kind of don't fit together.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah, but The Kents were supposed to be dead at the beginning of Rebirth too. Ever since Rebirth started, they've been changing things whenever they want. 

So with this latest change, I'm going to automatically assume that Lazarus Contract is no longer canon.
Bludhaven is never mentioned in the timeline so I'm going to assume it's never destroyed and Dick never moved there until now. 
The timeline mentioned Bruce returned as Batman after Dick's stint as Batman, so in this timeline, I just assume he returned after Flashpoint. 

At least until they update the timeline. It's still a work in progress and they haven't officially announced it yet. So they may still fix the chronology of Flashpoint and who's Batman when. 

I still think they're gonna erase Lazarus Contract though, coz they seem to want to bring all the classics back.

Edit: Oh wait, I forget... Didio did reveal the Gen 4 timeline in his insta, and Batman Dick with Robin Damian is counted as Post Flashpoint.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wish dan would stop. He is making things worse. Nothing is ever a clean slate. He really can't understand what fans want.

----------


## L.H.

> Dick had his Nightwing garb all through Doomsday Clock. Nothing about it's wrap up indicates that it takes place "after" the rest of the DCU catches up anymore so I think it's fair to figure Snyder era New Justice books and Bendis Super books, and the Ric Grayson ... Err ... "Saga" ... Are after Manhattan reverses Rebirth.
> 
> Everyone welcoming back the JSA in DC then forgetting them during Snyder Crisis can be chalked up to a hiccup in time resetting.


The panel above refers to july 2020, so it's in the future, and Dick Is Nightwing. Hope we don't have to wait till july. Also, earth 5G is a new earth, setted in 2026.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious when it comes to fighters should Dick ever be a better fighter than Batman?

----------


## king81992

> I don't think that canon is correct. Judas Contract is still a story that doesn't fit in with modern canon. I guess if Priest's Lazarus Contract story is erased now from the current canon then maybe a version of some type of Judas Contract story happened, but then does that mean Terra is dead again now? Is Beast Boy still as young as he is in Rebirth? Is Rose missing an eye again? Has Dick been to Bludhaven before Seeley's Rebirth story? Does Dick become Batman after Flashpoint make sense if Bruce was already back at the end of Flashpoint? And so many more things that kind of don't fit together.


Terra is still alive and back with Geo Force based on Doomsday Clock. Beast Boy is in a weird position, age wise. I always assumed that he's a bit older than he looks. Rose has both eyes. Dick's status in Bludhaven is not very clear.

----------


## Pohzee

> I'm curious when it comes to fighters should Dick ever be a better fighter than Batman?


King ranks Dick as a better fighter than Bruce. They fought to about stalemate in Nightwing vol. 2 #31 or whatever.

----------


## Mr.B

Geoforces group says Terra 4.

----------


## WonderNight

> I'm curious when it comes to fighters should Dick ever be a better fighter than Batman?


dick and bruce should be close but once dick is in his late 20s and bruce in his early 40s it should be clear.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True but then again there are people in their 40s who could still take on people younging than them easy. However, thanks to Teen Titans and others Dick would learn more fighting styles,

----------


## WonderNight

> True but then again there are people in their 40s who could still take on people younging than them easy. However, thanks to Teen Titans and others Dick would learn more fighting styles,


But we're not talking about a elite fighter vs the average jo. Where talking about an elite fighter in his prime vs one past his prime.

----------


## Restingvoice

> King ranks Dick as a better fighter than Bruce. They fought to about stalemate in Nightwing vol. 2 #31 or whatever.


He won. The purpose of that fight was to prove to Bruce that he's stronger and couldn't be captured again.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm curious when it comes to fighters should Dick ever be a better fighter than Batman?


I think so yes. Of course, I don't personally rank Batman among the greatest fighters on earth. I think he falls below Shiva, Cass Cain, Black Canary, and several others. What makes Bruce dangerous in a fight isn't so much his skill (though he's still a great combatant) but his intelligence. He wins by out-thinking his opponent, not by out-fighting them. 

I figure Dick is likely in the Top 10 fighters, but towards the bottom of the bracket. He's fast, he's incredibly agile, his reflexes are off the charts and he knows tons of earth-based martial arts including stuff from Themyscria, Atlantis, and Nanda Parbat, plus fighting styles from Tamaran. I think Bruce is probably in the Top 15, maybe Top 20. But again, that's just fighting ability. I'm not including gadgets or strategy or prep time.  

With Nightwing, Dick's supposed to be the most naturally gifted athlete in the DCU. He's also in his prime and has spent most of his life fighting criminals, and he's actually been doing it longer than some of the biggest guns in the League, like Barry. At the age when Bruce was still learning how to fight, Dick, at the same age, already had years under his belt as Robin, yknow? Dick's a better fighter, but he doesn't fight as smart as Bruce. 

In a match up between them, I usually give it roughly 50/50 odds on who's gonna win. It really kind of comes down to "who blinks first" in a way, and who either makes the first mistake or is first to use a technique the other isn't familiar with.

----------


## Godlike13

I’ve come to kind of hate fighter rankings. It’s so meaningless, yet ironically so important to fans. I don’t get it.

----------


## Digifiend

> Dick had his Nightwing garb all through Doomsday Clock. Nothing about it's wrap up indicates that it takes place "after" the rest of the DCU catches up anymore so I think it's fair to figure Snyder era New Justice books and Bendis Super books, and the Ric Grayson ... Err ... "Saga" ... Are after Manhattan reverses Rebirth.
> 
> Everyone welcoming back the JSA in DC then forgetting them during Snyder Crisis can be chalked up to a hiccup in time resetting.


That does make sense, for Dick at least. He said he lost nearly two decades of memories, and Barbara said she was in her late twenties. Both were previously 21 and seem to have suddenly aged up to around 28-29 when Dick was shot and Babs ditched the Burnside costume.

New Justice also being after the timeline repair would also explain why the Titans, who'd disbanded, appeared in No Justice.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm curious when it comes to fighters should Dick ever be a better fighter than Batman?


There is no such thing as better fighter

----------


## AmiMizuno

> There is no such thing as better fighter


What do you mean? I mean in terms of ranking all the Batfam where would Dick rank ?

----------


## Frontier

> I'm curious when it comes to fighters should Dick ever be a better fighter than Batman?


I think he's definitely faster and more limber then Bruce.

----------


## Badou

It's comic books. Anyone can beat anyone if the story and writer wants them to. I mean if you try and apply realistic limitations and rank fighters then a 90lbs girl in Cassandra Cain shouldn't be able to beat grown men, but then people would get upset if you do that. Then if you take it the extreme the other way and throw realism out the window and have Catwoman defeating 3 different Flashes with one kick or a Deathstroke defeating the entire Justice League people will get upset at that too. 

If you try and apply some sensible logic to it then Dick as a kid was a much better athlete than Bruce as a kid. They were raised very differently, and if both of their parents died when they were around the same age and both started training in martial arts around the same age then Dick should be better than Bruce at comparable ages. Plus Dick was trained by someone in Bruce that knew exactly what Dick needed to know and was on an accelerated course compared to Bruce who had to learn a lot of fighting and things by trial and error. So you could say that Dick at 25 years old is better than Bruce at 25.

But then you could say that Bruce is one of the smartest people in the entire DCU and learns things much faster than everyone. So you could argue that Bruce learned fighting much faster and was ahead of Dick at comparable ages. It all ends up being a formless argument. All I really know is that Dick generally isn't depicted at being better than Bruce in anything because of how the DCU is structured, so I don't expected Dick to be a better fighter. In general Dick tends to get beat up a lot and struggles through his fights. That will probably continue to happen regardless of where he ranks as a fighter.

----------


## Digifiend

Dennis "Hopeless" Hallum wrote a Nightwing issue last year, but it was scrapped before it was drawn thanks to the Ric story.
https://www.newsarama.com/48378-the-...s-no-more.html




> I mean, Ive done some DC work. I did a Nightwing issue right before where Dick Grayson got shot in the head and stopped being Nightwing. The process of making the book took so long though, that by the time it got done, it didnt even get drawn by the way, because it no longer made sense because of the continuity. [Laughs] So I got paid to write Nightwing once.


Surely they can just use this script when he goes back to normal?

----------


## Godlike13

Paying a writer for work that they can't manage to even produce, ya that sounds about right from this stellar Nightwing team.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What do you mean? I mean in terms of ranking all the Batfam where would Dick rank ?


Ranking don’t matter. The condiment king can beat Cassandra Cain if a writer says so

----------


## Godlike13

Its not even just what the writer wants. Its not a kung fu tournament, technical fighting skills aren't the be all end all.

----------


## Badou

> Dennis "Hopeless" Hallum wrote a Nightwing issue last year, but it was scrapped before it was drawn thanks to the Ric story.
> https://www.newsarama.com/48378-the-...s-no-more.html
> 
> 
> 
> Surely they can just use this script when he goes back to normal?


Hahaha, just just add it to the list of stuff this Nightwing book has had to deal with. What a mess. 

Dennis has done some interesting work. He's a young writer type that DC should just throw on the Nightwing book and let them do some wild things and see if anything works out. It can't be worse than what we've had. It is insane how over-managed this Nightwing book is.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious would Nightwing ever benefit from Superman and Nightwing arc? We have seen Nightwing also look up to Clark. Wouldn't it be nice to have a story centered around them? I just don't  know what would be a nice story.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm curious would Nightwing ever benefit from Superman and Nightwing arc? We have seen Nightwing also look up to Clark. Wouldn't it be nice to have a story centered around them? I just don't  know what would be a nice story.


Superman is much like starfire he can visit for a day but that’s it or the story falls apart

----------


## Digifiend

The problem is that Clark could just solve all of Dick's problems for him, so despite their relationship, team ups shouldn't happen often.

----------


## Restingvoice

That reminds me... following my previous train of thought... if Dick marries Kori and move to Bludhaven... the image of the story will be more like Outlaws I imagine, like how Jason and Artemis fighting Black Mask, he had to bring in Bizarro. While Blockbuster's strong, he will need the extra firepower.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> That reminds me... following my previous train of thought... if Dick marries Kori and move to Bludhaven... the image of the story will be more like Outlaws I imagine, like how Jason and Artemis fighting Black Mask, he had to bring in Bizarro. While Blockbuster's strong, he will need the extra firepower.


That would be cool. Isn't Kori in the Titans also? Or now just a outlaw? 




> The problem is that Clark could just solve all of Dick's problems for him, so despite their relationship, team ups shouldn't happen often.


I guess it would depend on what the reason is. I would just like a story with the  two.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That reminds me... following my previous train of thought... if Dick marries Kori and move to Bludhaven... the image of the story will be more like Outlaws I imagine, like how Jason and Artemis fighting Black Mask, he had to bring in Bizarro. While Blockbuster's strong, he will need the extra firepower.


Dick Grayson is not an outlaw, a lot of the turbulence in their relationship came from dick holding back her more aggressive impulses. They worked the best in space, where earth law doesn’t matter. Star can be wild and in charge and free. Dick was free to be a little more underhanded and roguish.   That can’t  happen on earth on bludhaven or in the bat office. 

If you are lookin for that couple then i recommend rouge and gambit

----------


## bearman

In kingdom come, Clark and Diana talk about how Bruce can do things and go places they could not. Dick has those skills, has been a lifelong “nephew” to cClark, and would function well inbrighter Metropolis. I think a circus you superhero would fit right in. And Clark can’t really do street level stuff...he could give Dick leads, but Dick could be his own man. I believe there is a long established branch of the Martha WAyne Foundation there for Dick to run.

----------


## WonderNight

> In kingdom come, Clark and Diana talk about how Bruce can do things and go places they could not. Dick has those skills, has been a lifelong “nephew” to cClark, and would function well inbrighter Metropolis. I think a circus you superhero would fit right in. And Clark can’t really do street level stuff...he could give Dick leads, but Dick could be his own man. I believe there is a long established branch of the Martha WAyne Foundation there for Dick to run.


 Sounds cool but we all know dick can't have anything that doesn't revolve around batman. Does dick and clark even have a relationship anymore.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don’t think so. So it would be nice if they ever decided to re explore that. What would be wrong to have Kori live with dick if Dc ever got them back together ?

----------


## WonderNight

> I don’t think so. So it would be nice if they ever decided to re explore that. What would be wrong to have Kori live with dick if Dc ever got them back together ?


kori doesn't revolve around batman so her and dick can't be together.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Guess this is why the only time their relationship works is if Dick is outside his own comics. Sadly Batman can have characters appear for a period of time with no issue. He did have relationships outside of his IP. Wouldn’t it be okay for Dick to do the same? That would be nice it adds more diversity.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick Grayson is not an outlaw, a lot of the turbulence in their relationship came from dick holding back her more aggressive impulses. They worked the best in space, where earth law doesn’t matter. Star can be wild and in charge and free. Dick was free to be a little more underhanded and roguish.   That can’t  happen on earth on bludhaven or in the bat office. 
> 
> If you are lookin for that couple then i recommend rouge and gambit


I meant in terms of their rogues' gallery. The power level of the enemies would be different if Kori's there. 




> That would be cool. Isn't Kori in the Titans also? Or now just a outlaw? 
> 
> I guess it would depend on what the reason is. I would just like a story with the  two.


Kori's in Justice League now. Previously Teen Titans. Previously Outlaw. Previously Titans.  Previously Teen Titans.




> Guess this is why the only time their relationship works is if Dick is outside his own comics. Sadly Batman can have characters appear for a period of time with no issue. He did have relationships outside of his IP. Wouldn’t it be okay for Dick to do the same? That would be nice it adds more diversity.


Not classically. His classic lovers are Talia and Selina, both in Batman family comics. The only exception is Wonder Woman but that's because they're in a Justice League animated tv series, and not limited by Batman books.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. But I mean would it really be that bad for Kori and Dick to live together? I mean it was be easy to have Kori’s appearance to be a few times but not often due to JL or outlaws.

----------


## Badou

Why do you want her and Dick to live together in the first place? They haven't dated in over 25 years.

----------


## Restingvoice

I got curious since it's the earliest point I knew where editorial interferes with the character.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> kori doesn't revolve around batman so her and dick can't be together.





> Why do you want her and Dick to live together in the first place? They haven't dated in over 25 years.


I mean Dick and Kori one of the slightly more well-known ones. I mean the fact Dc still uses KoriDick. Dc still uses certain ships outside the comics that aren’t together in a long time. It’s something not in the family. Dc has gotten them together outside the mainline. But it comes down to personal taste. Plus no matter what dc will probably just mess things up. I like the ship I just want to see at least one modern comic where it's not messy relationships like Bruce. I mean Dick and Kori were supposed to still get married but it's my own feelings. I'm just saying it would be nice to see a character outside the IP of Batman be a supporting cast in Nightwing's book.

----------


## Godlike13

> kori doesn't revolve around batman so her and dick can't be together.


Didn’t stop them from making her part of Jason’s supporting cast.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Didn’t stop them from making her part of Jason’s supporting cast.


Jason was globetrotting and in space he only has to be home when dick is dead or inaccessible to Bruce 
Dickfire was over 20 years it needs to be let go

----------


## AmiMizuno

Many Dc characters have been killed off years ago and have become great characters. The same with romances in Dc .

----------


## Badou

> Didn’t stop them from making her part of Jason’s supporting cast.


At that time I think Jason's Outlaws book fell under different editorial staff. Lobdell had his own editors separate from the Batman ones. Although in Rebirth Jason had Bizarro running around with him. So it doesn't look like it mattered really. 

Jason's book has the freedom to go and do anything basically Lobdell wants. It isn't tied down by trying to be a knockoff Daredevil book like how Nightwing is stuck being.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Which is a issue, Nightwing always seems to not be able to extend. Always going to be Batman and never really have his own mark. It really would depend who the writer is and the cast. Maybe him not showing in Batmans comic that much. Needs a new editor

----------


## Godlike13

Needs a new office. I like his Bat ties, and for a while they were beneficial, but the current Bat office is terrible and his Bat ties aren’t really helping him right now. His current editors and creators have sunken him under RHatOs, and they continue to just do more of the same. Nightwing needs out of that office in a bad way.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Needs a new office. I like his Bat ties, and for a while they were beneficial, but the current Bat office is terrible and his Bat ties aren’t really helping him right now. His current editors and creators have sunken him under RHatOs, and they continue to just do more of the same. Nightwing needs out of that office in a bad way.


 And the conversation circle we play goes round and round again lol

----------


## redmax99

> Needs a new office. I like his Bat ties, and for a while they were beneficial, but the current Bat office is terrible and his Bat ties aren’t really helping him right now. His current editors and creators have sunken him under RHatOs, and they continue to just do more of the same. Nightwing needs out of that office in a bad way.


but jason not in the bat office only dick

----------


## AmiMizuno

Where should Dick go? I mean would it be best to keep him with Titans or get in a way his own editor within the Batfam?

----------


## Valentonis

I would be down for a stint in Metropolis. I wouldn't necessarily want it as his permanent status quo, but it would be a nice Grayson-style sabbatical to help the character grow away from Batman and his world.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I would be down for a stint in Metropolis. I wouldn't necessarily want it as his permanent status quo, but it would be a nice Grayson-style sabbatical to help the character grow away from Batman and his world.


That would be interesting. Wonder how they will treat him differently

----------


## Ascended

I'd definitely support Dick moving to the Super office. The Bat books only use him as a sidekick and allow his own title to be sabotaged for the sake of another title he doesn't star in, or even appear in very often. He's ignored and marginalized and fed to the already fat and glutted Batman. And the entire Bat line seems to be on a downward slide these days anyway. The Bat office changed editors not to long ago right? It shows.

Meanwhile the Superman books have Jimmy and Lois in solo titles which are both unique and interesting, there's tons of world building going on with the Wonder imprint (including Young Justice and Naomi) the Legion is back, and Bendis, love or hate his direction, is building forward with Clark and putting some serious thought into his choices, rather than deconstructing and re-imagining Superman or just throwing stupid shock value gimmicks at us, as has so often been the case over the last thirty years. 

Not to mention Nightwing seems like a perfect character for Bendis. After Supeman, Ultimate Spider-Man, and Daredevil, there's no doubt in my mind that Bendis (of all people) would write the best Nightwing we've seen in several years.

Sure, the Super books don't sell as well as Batman does. But who cares when Nightwing isn't selling, or worth reading in the first place?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Maybe the best thing is to kill him off from the Batfam. I mean the only way is if editors and writers wrote Nightwing has if he wasn't connected. That an event kills that relationship off for a while.

----------


## WonderNight

> Didn’t stop them from making her part of Jason’s supporting cast.


Cause Jason ist up Bruce and Barbara's butt's like dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Since the new 52 im pretty sure Jason has appeared in more Bat events, and has had continual Batman guest appearances in his book. They even put a bat symbol on him.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Makes me wonder why not have Dick be cut off from the Batfam. Wouldn’t that help more?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Makes me wonder why not have Dick be cut off from the Batfam. Wouldn’t that help more?


Becuase that means Bruce loosing his first son, babs her first love and Damian brother.

You don’t want to permanently cut him from the family. Also if the bat office can control him they proably won’t allow him to interact with the bat family very much at all.  It’s an all or nothing deal

----------


## AmiMizuno

I’m not saying permanently. Just a bit. They clearly don’t know what to do with him many times mins so they put him in Batman books more. I like to see Nightwing both as a Batfam and Independent. That was the reason why they made him Nightwing. To show he can be both. He can stand out . To do that a little cut off time would be nice. Not something to long. I mean if Jason can do his own thing and he still a Batfam it would be nice for Nightwing too.  I know Jason isn’t under the Batman editor but still.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, the original Nightwing concept was that Dick would be seen as the leader of the Titans, not just Batman's sidekick. In other words, an independent hero, like everyone else on the team save Kid Flash (who took over as the Flash a few years later anyway).

Jason not under Bat office... is he in the same office as Teen Titans then? Would make sense, considering he had Starfire and Arsenal with him in the New 52.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean wouldn't the best way is Nightwing is used sparingly in Batfam. That when Dick is there it should be serious. That Bruce and the others need serious backup

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah, the original Nightwing concept was that Dick would be seen as the leader of the Titans, not just Batman's sidekick. In other words, an independent hero, like everyone else on the team save Kid Flash (who took over as the Flash a few years later anyway).
> 
> Jason not under Bat office... is he in the same office as Teen Titans then? Would make sense, considering he had Starfire and Arsenal with him in the New 52.


I think I remember reading it was the same as Deathstroke, but I may be remembering very wrong. Maybe Dark_T or RedBird know the office that the book is under.

Edit: both Teen Titans and Red Hood Outlaw share the group editor, so I guess they're under the same office now, yeah. I was wrong about the Deathstroke bit.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hopefull when the Ric storyline is over they just retcon that. Do you guys think Dick should be moved to Superman editors?

----------


## Godlike13

Happy holidays everyone.

----------


## Frontier

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all Nightwing fans  :Smile: .

----------


## AmiMizuno

Merry Christmas

----------


## Ascended

> Hopefull when the Ric storyline is over they just retcon that. Do you guys think Dick should be moved to Superman editors?


I wouldn't want Dick's relationship with Bruce and the others ignored and forgotten, the way Dick's relationships with the Titans were when Dick left Titans editorial, but yeah I think right now it'd be to Dick's benefit to join an editorial group that can actually use him properly and Superman's *might* be that place. 

But if the real problem lies in higher level management (Didio) rather than at the editorial level like we all think it does, then changing editors isn't going to solve the problem, since Didio's BS would just follow Nightwing to the new office. If that's the case then Dick needs to be under a creator or editor who has the clout to do what they want whether it jives with Didio's personal opinions or not. Bendis is one of the few guys at DC right now who seems to be able to do that.

So yeah the Super office is looking pretty good right now.

And a happy holiday to all the wingnuts here! However you get down this time of year, I hope you had fun doing it and enjoyed your festivities!

----------


## Zaresh

Merry christmass to you all, too  :Smile:

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I wouldn't want Dick's relationship with Bruce and the others ignored and forgotten, the way Dick's relationships with the Titans were when Dick left Titans editorial, but yeah I think right now it'd be to Dick's benefit to join an editorial group that can actually use him properly and Superman's *might* be that place. 
> 
> But if the real problem lies in higher level management (Didio) rather than at the editorial level like we all think it does, then changing editors isn't going to solve the problem, since Didio's BS would just follow Nightwing to the new office. If that's the case then Dick needs to be under a creator or editor who has the clout to do what they want whether it jives with Didio's personal opinions or not. Bendis is one of the few guys at DC right now who seems to be able to do that.
> 
> So yeah the Super office is looking pretty good right now.
> 
> And a happy holiday to all the wingnuts here! However you get down this time of year, I hope you had fun doing it and enjoyed your festivities!


True. I don't want the relationship to be forgotten but I do think maybe a little break from the family. 

Okay since the year is almost up, What has been the best Dick Grayson moments?

----------


## Ascended

> Okay since the year is almost up, What has been the best Dick Grayson moments?


Young Justice season 3. I think pretty much every time Dick appeared on screen it was handled really well. 

I don't watch Titans but I hear Dick's debut as Nightwing was a highlight of the final episode in season 2. And the costume looked really great.

DCU Online started offering a "starter kit" in game where you get a bunch of costume styles and stuff, and one of the main selling points for the "Batman family" kit is the Nightwing gear (that and the Batman Beyond costume). The fact that I have to use this shows that 2019 was not Dick's best.

In comics? Nothing. There were no good moments for Dick in comics this year.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, particularly the first quarter or so of season three was absolutely perfect Dick Grayson stuff. Building teams of friends for covert ops. That’s it. More plz.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Young Justice season 3. I think pretty much every time Dick appeared on screen it was handled really well. 
> 
> I don't watch Titans but I hear Dick's debut as Nightwing was a highlight of the final episode in season 2. And the costume looked really great.
> 
> DCU Online started offering a "starter kit" in game where you get a bunch of costume styles and stuff, and one of the main selling points for the "Batman family" kit is the Nightwing gear (that and the Batman Beyond costume). The fact that I have to use this shows that 2019 was not Dick's best.
> 
> In comics? Nothing. There were no good moments for Dick in comics this year.


For Titans, yeah. Initially. Final episode though, well, it stunk in about every way.

----------


## Godlike13

The Nightwing stuff was good in the final ep, everything else not so much. Still a year highlight though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Nightwing stuff was good in the final ep, everything else not so much. Still a year highlight though.


Considering his year in comics it certainly was
Too bad that particular episode was such a drag

----------


## AmiMizuno

Any hope for him next year?

----------


## Ascended

There's always hope. 

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." Martin Luthor King Jr.

Dick Grayson, and his fans, will get what we deserve. Just a matter of when.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Any hope for him next year?


He comes back next year

----------


## AmiMizuno

Soon. Ric storyline doesn’t seem to be ending anything time soon.

I have to wonder how will they make his return strong

----------


## Godlike13

That’s easy, they won’t. They’ll probably leave Jurgan’s on even.

----------


## Digifiend

What's wrong with that? It's not like Jurgens is the one who made him Ric in the first place - he took on the story after that status quo had started. If you don't like the current story, that's editorial's fault, not his.

----------


## king81992

> Soon. Ric storyline doesn’t seem to be ending anything time soon.
> 
> I have to wonder how will they make his return strong


The only way I see Dick having a strong return is if they have him revive the Titans. The Titans/TT franchise has been a mess for years and still is, but it's much more preferable to this Ric nonsense.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Soon. Ric storyline doesn’t seem to be ending anything time soon.
> 
> I have to wonder how will they make his return strong


Why would you say that when we know he back next spring
Why don’t we just make a second Dick Grayson thread called the nightwing drag so we can retread and repeat the same things

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why would you say that when we know he back next spring
> Why don’t we just make a second Dick Grayson thread called the nightwing drag so we can retread and repeat the same things


We don't know if he's back next spring. We only know it's in 2020.

----------


## Godlike13

> What's wrong with that? It's not like Jurgens is the one who made him Ric in the first place - he took on the story after that status quo had started. If you don't like the current story, that's editorial's fault, not his.


He’s boring and formulaic, and just because he didn’t make him Ric doesn’t mean he hasn’t been terrible on the title. Every month the book falls to new lows under him. He needs to go. He has been as bad as Lobdell, worse even sales wise. He obviously generates no real market interest anymore. 
And it’s not like he’s a new writer people just don’t know who they are, he’s a long time vet. People know who he is, they just aren’t interested. Leaving him on for the return just tells people get ready for more of the same. That’s not how you make a return strong.

----------


## Frontier

> The only way I see Dick having a strong return is if they have him revive the Titans. The Titans/TT franchise has been a mess for years and still is, but it's much more preferable to this Ric nonsense.


I don't know if there's even going to be a Titans as we know them with 5G coming up.

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## Godlike13

Cancel the current series and relaunching it with new and more interesting creators would be a good start. But unfortunately after 2 years of unwavering shit with Ric, in this market, it’s going to be an uphill battle now for Dick. They not only have restore general interest but general fan morale on the character too. They can’t blatantly demonstrate to readers that they don’t really give a shit, for as long as the have with Ric, and that not have an impact going forward. Whatever they do next with Dick is what is going to truly feel the results of Ric and the unimpeded bad work by the current team on the book.

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## king81992

> I don't know if there's even going to be a Titans as we know them with 5G coming up.


The lack of information about a potential Titans team in 5G is either because  DC doesn't know who's going on the roster( the only confirmed changes seem to be Jon taking over for Clark and Luke taking over for Batman) or everyone connected to the  the Titans are retired/ killed off or turned into villains.

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## Frontier

> The lack of information about a potential Titans team in 5G is either because  DC doesn't know who's going on the roster( the only confirmed changes seem to be Jon taking over for Clark and Luke taking over for Batman) or everyone connected to the  the Titans are retired/ killed off or turned into villains.


Although Bendis' YJ will probably get a stay of execution for one reason or another (even if they're not selling amazingly).

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## Ascended

> Although Bendis' YJ will probably get a stay of execution for one reason or another (even if they're not selling amazingly).


Bendis' Young Justice will likely follow the format of the cartoon, keep some of the OG members around as mentors, and bring in new faces to maintain the "Young" part of the title.

And the book doesn't sell great in the direct market, but do we know what it looks like in digital, trade, and scholastic yet?

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## Jackalope89

> Bendis' Young Justice will likely follow the format of the cartoon, keep some of the OG members around as mentors, and bring in new faces to maintain the "Young" part of the title.
> 
> And the book doesn't sell great in the direct market, but do we know what it looks like in digital, trade, and scholastic yet?


Less than Teen Titans, from what I've read.

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## Digifiend

> The lack of information about a potential Titans team in 5G is either because  DC doesn't know who's going on the roster( the only confirmed changes seem to be Jon taking over for Clark and Luke taking over for Batman) or everyone connected to the  the Titans are retired/ killed off or turned into villains.


Or on the Justice League.

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## Godlike13

Or just completely irrelevant. I’m not sure why the DC comic guys would change their stance on the Titans with 5G.

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## Godlike13

BTW does this thread die tomorrow?

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## Rac7d*

> BTW does this thread die tomorrow?


Tuesday
Are you making the new one?

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## Godlike13

> Tuesday
> Are you making the new one?


I don't plan too. Unless no one else does it. Whoever wants to do it is cool.

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## Digifiend

> Tuesday
> Are you making the new one?


Do we know that the admins will be locking up all the appreciation threads again like they did last year?

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## K7P5V

> Do we know that the admins will be locking up all the appreciation threads again like they did last year?


I believe this link might answer all your questions, _Digifiend_...

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-to-start-2020

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## Slim Shady

I can't believe the Ric story is still going on. I took a break from comics for a few months and just knew Dick would be back by now wtf.

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## Godlike13

No one can. It defies all reason.

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## Slim Shady

> No one can. It defies all reason.


This thing going on for a year and half totally defies reason. I've gone from frustrated to mad to just giving up and not caring at all. Can't remember the last time that happened with me and Nightwing.

I stopped following the issues, is the end in sight at all? Are we even close to Dick's return?

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## Godlike13

Just rumors it might end sometime next year.

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## Digifiend

> I believe this link might answer all your questions, _Digifiend_...
> 
> https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-to-start-2020


Thanks. I've prepped my Marvel, Spider-Man and X-Men Appreciation Thread Indexes by copying the links already there to the bottom of the threads so that I can wipe the first posts clean on Wednesday - and for the first time I plan to create DC indexes too (one for each forum section, that's Bat, Super, Wonder and general DC).

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## Celgress

> I can't believe the Ric story is still going on. I took a break from comics for a few months and just knew Dick would be back by now wtf.


Damn, Ric is still a thing?  :Mad:   :Frown:  Guess I'll continue my boycott of Nightwing (my first ever) until further notice.

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## K7P5V

> Thanks. I've prepped my Marvel, Spider-Man and X-Men Appreciation Thread Indexes by copying the links already there to the bottom of the threads so that I can wipe the first posts clean on Wednesday - and for the first time I plan to create DC indexes too (one for each forum section, that's Bat, Super, Wonder and general DC).


You're welcome, _Digifiend_. Looking forward to reading the fruits of your labor.  :Wink:

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## Ascended

> Or just completely irrelevant. I’m not sure why the DC comic guys would change their stance on the Titans with 5G.


Who knows? I mean, Didio's whole thing is wanting the major, core names front and center, eternally young and hip, etc. And his beef with the Titans is that they make the League look old. 

Yet if rumors are true then everyone is getting replaced in 5G, with a potential time skip involved. Legacy focus and the big names are legit aging? It goes against everything DC has been pushing in recent years. So who knows how the Titans will be handled? Odds are they'll just be abused, used, and discarded/murdered.....but if 5G really is a thing like everyone thinks it is, then all bets are off.

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## Restingvoice

When they want to promote something it's usually for a simple reason, such as Damian being Son of Batman

I don't know the other 5G but two we know who and why they're promoted
Luke is Black Batman
Jon is Son of Superman

It's as simple as that. The legacy part is just something they say to attract old fans, but those two are the main reason and why they got their names out so fast.

Bringing back the whole whether Dick should have a city thing...

Let's forget the city or other mobile settings for a bit. 

Where he should stay? Another apartment? A house? 

Batman has his iconic Wayne Manor, Babs has the Clock Tower, Aquaman a Lighthouse, Kate has the Kane penthouse.

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