# Comics  > Batman >  Gotham - FOX TV Show Discussion

## heyevaxx

Wow!  Very excited for this ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d1zpt6k5OI

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## Michael24

Just saw it on Facebook. Looks really good. I geek out every time I see Donal Logue as Bullock. He just looks perfect in the part. Can't wait for it to premiere.

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## Red_11

Wow, looks good.  Far better than I expected.

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## Don C

It's official--at least two minutes of this show are going to rock. Hope the rest is as good.

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## godisawesome

Oh hell's yes.

This looks epic. 

The money shot of this trailer? Bruce's scream after his parents's murder.

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## JasonTodd428

Looks good. Now if it'll just not be on the one night in the week I work that would be golden.

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## The Kid

Looks good.

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## Nygma

Cautiously optimistic about this, the extended trailer has be really excited that they might do this right. Looks like Penguin is going to play a big role in this, liking his look for this too. Stoked Riddler's in it as well  :Big Grin:

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## Kid A

Didn't have any interest in this show until I saw that. 

Now I can't wait.

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## Miraclo__Pill

It looks cool, and serious and Donal Logue is so well casted it's amazing it never ocurred to me before. Yet I suprised myself thinking when the Waynes are shot "What? No pearls?" Hope it's just as good as the trailer makes it look

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## nepenthes

Yeah I'm also surprised how good this looks. They could have gotten it soo wrong. Looking forward to it. 




> It's official--at least two minutes of this show are going to rock. Hope the rest is as good.


Which 2mins you talking about?

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## chipsnopotatoes

Jada plays Fish Mooney like Catwoman. LOL. I noticed Ivy looks like a young girl too.

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## Don C

> Which 2mins you talking about?


The trailer. That was my way of saying I liked it.

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## MajorHoy

Looks interesting, but . . . Gordon needs his 'stache.

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## cygnadu

woah. you know, when i first heard of this i was dismissive, but that trailer's got me sold. casting looks really good.

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## nepenthes

> Looks interesting, but . . . Gordon needs his 'stache.


I am sure we'll get the origin of the stache. Along with the trenchcoat...and the flashlight...the cigars.....sleeping in the office....a tolerance for shitty coffee... :Cool:

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## The Kid

Donal League as Bullock is amazing casting. For me though, I'm really interested to see Penguin's rise to power

I'm really happy that this is tied to it's own universe. Now we get Batman on the big screen and Gotham's unrelated origin on the small screen.

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## The Red Monk

Looks nice. Though I would have preferred a live-action Batman TV show instead. We haven't had one since Batman '66.

EDIT: One more thing. The Waynes' murder. Where are the pearls? Where's the guy harassing Martha and Thomas for cash before shooting them? Here, it seems like he just walks out of the shadows and straight up shoots both of them. Mob hit?

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## Flash Gordon

What a great cast. This looks to be really good, I just hope they don't make the mistake that SMALLVILLE made and introduce every single character before Bruce is even a teenager.

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## Kid A

> What a great cast. This looks to be really good, I just hope they don't make the mistake that SMALLVILLE made and introduce every single character before Bruce is even a teenager.


Watch them cast some pretty boy to play Bruce's  childhood friend before he was Joker.

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## The World

> Looks interesting, but . . . Gordon needs his 'stache.



Yeah, that guy doesn't really look like Gordon to me.

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## Flash Gordon

> Watch them cast some pretty boy to play Bruce's  childhood friend before he was Joker.


Bane will be the school yard bully too.

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## ABH

Looks good to me. I'll certainly give this a shot.

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## Penguin Truth

> What a great cast. This looks to be really good, I just hope they don't make the mistake that SMALLVILLE made and introduce every single character before Bruce is even a teenager.


Of course they will. They'll try to ft in as many well-known, marketable Batman characters as possible. And six seasons later, Bruce will be fighting crime without a cape and cowl. 

Joker will be some prankster Bruce knows or some sarcastic street thug, Bane will be a foreign exchange student who weight lifts, and Doctor Death will be Bruce's dentist.

Ugh, I hated _Smallville_.

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## Pabst

> Watch them cast some pretty boy to play Bruce's  childhood friend before he was Joker.


They do that and I'll be angry!   


I was really excited for this and then i saw "FOX" and lost all hope.  I've watched FOX forever and they've had so many failed shows it's sad.  All networks have failed shows but FOX is the worst about it IMO.  I'll watch it but I have no expectations it will do well.  At least then I won't be disappointed when it gets cancelled halfway through the first season.  The cast looks good though.  Donal Logue is a solid actor though so maybe he can save it with FOX running it.

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## Kid A

Jack Napier, Gotham High's class clown.

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## Flash Gordon

If they want to be faithful, Bruce should only be in the first season or two, then he should be off on his own.

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## Flash Gordon

It's kind of nuts how Selina is pretty much CATWOMAN, at age 13.

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## Punisher007

Camren is actually one of the things that interests me the most.  She looks really great.

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## Murrocko

Tommy Elliot should have been casted. That's one of the villains that makes the most sense to show up during this time period.

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## Batman Forever

It actually looks dumb to me, but I'm gonna watch it anyways. I'll be watching with rock bottom expectations and will be very easy to please.

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## Ginkasa

What they need to do to avoid Smallvilleism is not confine the show to "one season=one year."  They shouldn't be afraid to jump a couple of years in between seasons. This way they can more naturally progress the storyline instead of trying to cram too much Batman stuff too early in the timeline.  And since Bruce doesn't _need_ to show back up as Batman until he's 30ish, they shouldn't have to fear hitting Batman too early.

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## Kid A

> It actually looks dumb to me, but I'm gonna watch it anyways. I'll be watching with rock bottom expectations and will be very easy to please.


Says a dude named Batman Forever  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## CatBoy

How could you not get chills when the title screen pops up: Gotham... and then you see the blimp in the skyline?! This is the live-action show that my inner-child longs for!



I wasn't as hyped initially, but this really could be incredible. Such a different take on an comic book origin tv show compared to the Smallville/Arrow/Flash CW-ness (not saying they're not good - I'm just glad DC took a different route with Gotham).

Of course, I'm excited to see a young Selina as well.

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## heyevaxx

I recall reading (twitter, tumblr? I can't find it now) a production team member saying that Camren was really working out on set, with flips IIRC. Can't wait to see!

I think Camren is 14 and should be about to turn 15 sometime this month. Her birthday is hard to track down but on her 13th birthday this video was shot and it was uploaded to YouTube (video link) on May 22 2012.

Regarding Matha Wayne's famous pearls being missing from clip, they're there and then gone when she's shot. I'd be really surprised if they'd missed this. Here's a side by side:

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## Dispenser Of Truth

Hahahahahaha that's so hilariously stupid looking. Credit to the kid playing young Bruce for looking genuinely traumatized, but even that credit is negated with "I'm learning to conquer my fears" or whatever the hell exactly they made that poor young man actually say out loud, as if that's something any human being would ever say with the intent of it being viewed by as many people as possible. I'm almost genuinely excited just on the basis of how bonkers this is going to be. At least as long as if it ends with Batman making his first appearance by punching a geriatric Edward Nygma and his colon just popping like a water balloon.

Calling it now: Dick Grayson will appear and be fighting crime at Bruce's side before the series is over.

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## Tandaemonium

My interest in this show immediately went from zero to great. And I see Rome's Bruno Heller wrote the pilot? Yup, totally on board.

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## Punisher007

> Hahahahahaha that's so hilariously stupid looking. Credit to the kid playing young Bruce for looking genuinely traumatized, but even that credit is negated with "I'm learning to conquer my fears" or whatever the hell exactly they made that poor young man actually say out loud, as if that's something any human being would ever say with the intent of it being viewed by as many people as possible. I'm almost genuinely excited just on the basis of how bonkers this is going to be. At least as long as if it ends with Batman making his first appearance by punching a geriatric Edward Nygma and his colon just popping like a water balloon.
> 
> Calling it now: Dick Grayson will appear and be fighting crime at Bruce's side before the series is over.


You mean the Edward Nygma who's maybe 10-15 years older than Bruce.  So if Bruce becomes Batman in his late 20's to early 30's, that's going to make Nygma in his mid 40's at the oldest.  I don't know many "geriatrics" that are that young.

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## Dylan Davison

This has gotten me excited for the show, which I was not before! And that Poison Ivy part. Yay!




> I recall reading (twitter, tumblr? I can't find it now) a production team member saying that Camren was really working out on set, with flips IIRC. Can't wait to see!
> 
> I think Camren is 14 and should be about to turn 15 sometime this month. Her birthday is hard to track down but on her 13th birthday this video was shot and it was uploaded to YouTube (video link) on May 22 2012.
> 
> Regarding Matha Wayne's famous pearls being missing from clip, they're there and then gone when she's shot. I'd be really surprised if they'd missed this. Here's a side by side:


That, in at least my guess, maybe because they did a jump cut, he maybe hands the killer the pearls before they get shot. Idk XD

Who is the woman with the red dye in her hair by the way?

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## Penguin Truth

> My interest in this show immediately went from zero to great. And I see Rome's Bruno Heller wrote the pilot? Yup, totally on board.


He's the same Bruno Heller who created, and then recently ruined, _The Mentalist_.

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## John Venus

This looks terrible.  Selina and Bullock look interesting though.

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## Naked Bat

it definitely looks good. Can't wait to see it now!

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## PyroSikTh

Now this puts me in a predicament. Fox, and the concept young villains vs an amazing trailer and Donal Logue. Gotham has to be the show where my excitement for it fluctuates the most in it's build-up. I was interested when it was first announced, skeptical when Fox picked it up, lost interest with young versions of established villains making appearances, and now my excitement level has increased a bit with that fantastic trailer. It looks like it could at least equal Arrow in quality.

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## heyevaxx

About Fox, while they've had a lot of failures they also have a surprising success every now and then. In particular, the new Cosmos with Neil deGrasse Tyson has an IMDB of 9.5 and Metacritic 82/8.4. That show came about due to the right people meeting at the right time and great casting and production team staffing. Let's hope Gotham will be another example like the new Cosmos.

Also, I just looked at the IMDB cast again and remembered that Renee Montoya and Crispus Allen are listed which I'm very excited for, especially Renee. Both have been neglected in New 52 (along with Cass Cain - bring her back DC!!!) so seeing them on screen will be nice.

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## PyroSikTh

> About Fox, while they've had a lot of failures they also have a surprising success every now and then. In particular, the new Cosmos with Neil deGrasse Tyson has an IMDB of 9.5 and Metacritic 82/8.4. That show came about due to the right people meeting at the right time and great casting and production team staffing. Let's hope Gotham will be another example like the new Cosmos.


The crucial difference here is that Cosmos is a documentary that was hyped up to the wazoo.

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## nightrider

I'm speechless. This is too good.
TOO GOOD!

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## Batman Forever

> Says a dude named Batman Forever


batman forever > you

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## SuperiorJaHawk

I didn't wanna like this. I went into the trailer having a totally negative attitude, not being a fan of the general premise. But oh, how wrong was I? His looks brilliant. Can't wait to see more of it.

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## gsnake007

i hope they jump forward in years between seasons becasue thatll help it in the long run and i hope tommy gets introduced as well

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## Kingcrimsonprog

Yup. I'll watch this.

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## BaneofKings

Really excited for this. Looking forward to it and hopefully it won't meet the same fates as _Firefly_ & _Almost Human_.

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## Manchuto

I'm interested to see how GCPD and Gordon tackle Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler and others considering that Batman alone had difficulty taking some of these villains down himself. Batman isn't Batman yet so I guess the series will elaborate on how these villains turn into the villains that they are known to become.

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## ReverseReverseFlash

Yet another DC show starring average people in pants and jackets because they lack the confidence to really launch a full-on Superhero fiction. Arrow is a dude in a jacket and hood without a name and Flash probably won't even get picked up. I wish they'd stop this Smallville trend. Superheroes, not street dudes who kinda resemble them.

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## MajorHoy

> Yet another DC show starring average people in pants and jackets because they lack the confidence to really launch a full-on Superhero fiction. Arrow is a dude in a jacket and hood without a name and Flash probably won't even get picked up. I wish they'd stop this Smallville trend. Superheroes, not street dudes who kinda resemble them.


Part of the reason they may not go full-costume super characters may have to do with licensing? If you're having a *Gotham* TV show without "Batman", you can offer Batman himself elsewhere. I believe part of Smallville not having Clark as Superman / Superboy was because the licensing for "Superman" was a separate deal that hadn't expired yet?

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## Hellpop

It looks well made, but i think our favorite characters are too young.  i don't know much of Selena's history but she wasn't 'catwoman' until her 20's, right? In fact isn't one of the long running underlying themes that The Batman was the spark of all the weirdo costumes villains in Gotham. i.e. without The Batman there would be no Joker.  In this version Brucie is about 10 years old...how is there a catwoman, riddler, penguin already?  Of course I'll watch though.   :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Matt Spatola

Thought it looked very well made and they spent some good money on it. Should be interesting  and I'll be giving it a try when it premieres in the fall.

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## MajorHoy

> It looks well made, but i think our favorite characters are too young.  i don't know much of Selena's history but she wasn't 'catwoman' until her 20's, right? In fact isn't one of the long running underlying themes that The Batman was the spark of all the weirdo costumes villains in Gotham. i.e. without The Batman there would be no Joker.  In this version Brucie is about 10 years old...how is there a catwoman, riddler, penguin already?  Of course I'll watch though.


But remember . . . this isn't the comic books; this is a television program, so they get to play fast and loose with all the facts.

(Besides, in the comic books, was Bullock a part of the G.C.P.D. _before_ Jim Gordon joined?)

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## Sousa

> Yet another DC show starring average people in pants and jackets because they lack the confidence to really launch a full-on Superhero fiction. Arrow is a dude in a jacket and hood without a name and Flash probably won't even get picked up. I wish they'd stop this Smallville trend. Superheroes, not street dudes who kinda resemble them.


Um, Oliver has a full green suit and is called The Arrow. The Flash will be a series, the fact that they've already cast a lot of characters shows they have faith behind it like they did with Arrow. Arrow is nothing like Smallville, the fact that they called call characters Deathstroke, Huntress, Canary , Merlyn , Clock King etc etc should tell you that they aren't afraid of the names or characters.

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## godisawesome

> But remember . . . this isn't the comic books; this is a television program, so they get to play fast and loose with all the facts.
> 
> (Besides, in the comic books, was Bullock a part of the G.C.P.D. _before_ Jim Gordon joined?)


Usually, he was. He's generally the corrupt cop that Jim turned to the light side.

And I'm all for showing our villains already being messed up before  they get the theatrical looks going. Crane experiments on his students before becoming Scarecrow, Penguin's the classic fence and smuggler with a goofy name and an old family legacy before he gets famous, and Catwoman works better when her skills are already justified (the Dixon-Balent origin) rather than pulled out of nowhere (Year One's "hooker + costume = mad skills" formula). 

The theatricality follows Batman, but I hate the idea that somehow Batman's psychosis triggers his villains' turn to darkness. It's a bit too pessimistic and stupid for me.

Besides, I actually like the idea that some bad guys are already very developed compared to their peers. A guy like Clayface 1 arguably works better in a pre-Batman storyline, where his popularity can inspire his successors. And I actually think there's a lot of potential in kid Catwoman hanging out with Bruce. It introduces him to the underside of Gotham with all the less fortunate people in the town who he ends up championing as much as Justice itself.

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## ispacehead

Hm...

Looks good enough to me. 

I'll watch this.

Looks alot like my outline for a Batman series, with the addition of "Little Gotham" and all the child actor's playing future Gotham heavies. 

I'm totally in.

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## Punisher007

Plus, the villains that they're using make sense as well.  None of these people need Batman around to be bad:

1. Oswald Cobblepot is a mob boss.  Here, he's still a mobster just not a boss yet.  I think that the show will chronicle his rise to power in the Gotham underworld.  You don't need Batman for that.

2. Edward Nygma is an arrogant genius who likes to play mind games and is obsessed with puzzles.  Again, you don't need Batman for that.

3. Pamela Isley is an environmental nut who has an obsession with plants.  No need for Batman there either.

4. Selina Kyle is a street-smart thief, same deal.

All that Batman's arrival really does is to convince these people to put on costumes of their own and act more theatrical.

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## ispacehead

Hopefully the connections between the characters aren't too overdeveloped.

This show needs to be a little more of a crime drama and a little less Smallville for me to stay on board.

If we start seeing too much of young Bruce clashing with/teaming up with the young rogues it could get a bit silly I think.

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## Maxpower00044

> Hopefully the connections between the characters aren't too overdeveloped.
> 
> This show needs to be a little more of a crime drama and a little less Smallville for me to stay on board.
> 
> If we start seeing too much of young Bruce clashing with/teaming up with the young rogues it could get a bit silly I think.


I agree with this. 

I liked the trailer. I'm definitely on board to give the show a shot.

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## MajorHoy

Just hope we get some more previews prior to whenever it premiers in the fall.

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## NewMutant

Fairly impressed.  Hope it doesn't disappoint. My fear is it will rely on young Bruce too much.

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## Tandaemonium

> He's the same Bruno Heller who created, and then recently ruined, _The Mentalist_.


That's a shame that he had to dumb himself down for network TV audiences. I haven't seen it but I also still have no intention of seeing it.

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## Arnoldoaad

Just saw the trailer

my thoughts
1- The guy who is playing Penguin, my god, what a perfect pitch, just brilliant! the rest is ok.
2- I pretty much hated the Sound on the trailer as being the sound for Nolan´s movies, I know why they did it, it was just very distracting
3- I disliked the scene of the death of the waynes, just not well shot, just too much light, a lot of overacting(Ms Wayne specially), it just needed *less*
4- Im very excited for this, looking forward

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## BeauL83

I'm really looking forward to this. The trailer gives me even more reason to check it out.

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## Mahzian

I hope they jump forward in time every so often like they do in Vikings, I don't really want to watch a show for 10 years just to see him put the costume on at the end (like Smallville which will probably be the case)

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## Miraclo__Pill

> I hope they jump forward in time every so often like they do in Vikings, I don't really want to watch a show for 10 years just to see him put the costume on at the end (like Smallville which will probably be the case)


I think now that Fox got their hands on the Batverse again they won't let it got that easy. They will do anything and everything as long as they can profit from it somehow...

About the trailer, everyday that passes I'm more convinced Jim Gordon needs tha stache...

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## Dispenser Of Truth

New interview up, and any and all enthusiasm I might have had that it would at least be a hoot is stone dead. This asshole could not possibly have less of an idea what the hell he's talking about. Bonus points for saying that the best part about Batman is that no one has powers (an asinine and reductive statement in and of itself) in response to a trailer with a young Poison Ivy in it. 

At least DC's being fair in getting someone as ashamed of Batman to make his newest show as they are of Superman.

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## son of booyah

> New interview up, and any and all enthusiasm I might have had that it would at least be a hoot is stone dead. This asshole could not possibly have less of an idea what the hell he's talking about. Bonus points for saying that the best part about Batman is that no one has powers (an asinine and reductive statement in and of itself) in response to a trailer with a young Poison Ivy in it. 
> 
> At least DC's being fair in getting someone as ashamed of Batman to make his newest show as they are of Superman.


I see it the opposite. Any version of Batman worth its salt has to do something fresh with the characters and setting, and it seems like this guy's going for it. I wasn't at all interested but after that interview and actually watching the trailer, I don't watch much TV but I'll give this a shot.

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## SXVA

Looked good, had an Arrow feel to it which seeing that i'm loving Arrow absolute right now that's a good thing. The casting of Catwoman is sound. I'm not that big on having to make the actor look exactly like the character, but it doesn't hurt if that happens to be the case like here with the Catwoman choice.

Donal Logue is a great casting choice also, although i kind of wish he was Gordon... in his younger days he could've been. Hehe.

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## C_Miller

> They do that and I'll be angry!   
> 
> 
> I was really excited for this and then i saw "FOX" and lost all hope.  I've watched FOX forever and they've had so many failed shows it's sad.  All networks have failed shows but FOX is the worst about it IMO.  I'll watch it but I have no expectations it will do well.  At least then I won't be disappointed when it gets cancelled halfway through the first season.  The cast looks good though.  Donal Logue is a solid actor though so maybe he can save it with FOX running it.


You know the reason Fox has failed shows, right? It's because they're the one network that give real genre shows a chance. Firefly is the famous example that everyone likes to toss out there, but if it weren't for Fox, Firefly probably would have never been given the light of day same with Dollhouse, Fringe, Sarah Connor Chronicles, Arrested Development (not a genre show, but still a rather off beat show) ect. Fox is a business like all the other networks, so it can't keep shows that are below their threshold, but the reason that they get as much crap thrown at them as they do is because they are practically alone in bold network programming.

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## K. Jones

The nice thing about the show being about, ostensibly, the GCPD for the most part, is that we can have something like "young future super-villain runs afoul of the cops" without them ever meeting Bruce Wayne or anything like that.

Now, a show like this is already dangerously and more than likely crossing the line of what I like to call "Snake Eyes Syndrome" - where you discover that all your characters have secret origins that revolve around one guy - they've all met in the past. But the difference with a show like Gotham is that the entire idea of that is inherent to the premise. You have to accept it up front or else you're never going to be able to get past it.

We can meet a 15 year old Joker who's just a street con-man, getting the tourists with three-card monte, or something ... who the cops might interact with but never get an ID on, or something, and it doesn't strain credulity ... because you know ... COPS. My big concern with a Joker appearance, or a "Jack" appearance, rather ... is that they'll be unable to contain themselves with putting these elaborate mythological themes on top of him about anarchy and chaos and entropy and cosmic bullsh**. I'm pretty sick of that. For starters, I like my post-acid dip Joker to have motives, anyway, and this is way before he takes a dive in the industrial baptismal font.

Motives. That key thing in every detective mystery story ever.

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## EdwardNigma

This looks great. 

Plus imagine seeing the Riddler or Penguin going up against the police and completely wiping the floor with them. That alone would make it a must buy on Blu Ray for me. Show the real fall of Gotham to crime lords and supervillains.

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## Punisher007

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=99770

First official poster.  It's cool that they divided the cast up into the "heroes" side and "villains" side, with Gordon and Bullock squarely in the middle.  Also interestingly, young Selina is on the "heroes" side.

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## The Red Monk

> http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=99770
> 
> First official poster.  It's cool that they divided the cast up into the "heroes" side and "villains" side, with Gordon and Bullock squarely in the middle.  Also interestingly, *young Selina is on the "heroes" side.*


No surprise there. Catwoman hasn't been a "villainess" for a pretty long time. At worst, she's an anti-hero nowadays.

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## brucekent12

I agree with Red Monk. Catwoman is an anti-hero these days. Unless Eternal makes her full on bad again. As for Gotham, the show looks totally awesome. Can't wait to see the whole episode.

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## heyevaxx

Punisher007, thanks for the poster head up! This looks great, can't wait.

Here's a high resolution 3,900px × 2,923px version: http://www.nerdacy.com/wp-content/up...eries-cast.jpg

And the same image with the easter eggs pointed out: http://www.nerdacy.com/wp-content/up...aster-eggs.jpg

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## Beantownbrown

Here's a larger image of the casino sign

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## Inertia

This series looks promising!

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## EdwardNigma

> http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=99770
> 
> First official poster.  It's cool that they divided the cast up into the "heroes" side and "villains" side, with Gordon and Bullock squarely in the middle.  Also interestingly, young Selina is on the "heroes" side.


Nice find!!

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## Mister BoMan

I can't wait for this! Looks great!

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## Robotman

The show looks good but everytime a television series or comic decides to show classic characters as children I can't help but think of this:

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## Dispenser Of Truth

> The show looks good but everytime and television series or comic decides to show classic characters as children I can't help but think of this:


Except this won't be nearly as awesome.

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## Chrysalis_Changling

What Hope Does This Show Have At Matching Agents of shield and arrow?

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## The Riddle Factory

I am in the massively excited camp and cannot wait to see what Cory Michael Smith brings to being Mr Nygma.

All of the cast seem to look fantastic and I hope they act it too, also will be interested to see their take on Joker and who plays him.

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## nightrider

> What Hope Does This Show Have At Matching Agents of shield and arrow?


If it's half as good as Arrow, I'm satisfied. With regards to AOS, I thought it's really boring cos I liked comic characters much more than non canon characters. To me it's like watching chloe Sullivan adventures. 


In other news gotham will air on Monday 8pm

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## Chrysalis_Changling

> If it's half as good as Arrow, I'm satisfied. With regards to AOS, I thought it's really boring cos I liked comic characters much more than non canon characters. To me it's like watching chloe Sullivan adventures. 
> 
> 
> In other news gotham will air on Monday 8pm


Looks like that means It'll interfere with me watching monday night raw....

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## Maxpower00044

> What Hope Does This Show Have At Matching Agents of shield and arrow?


It won't have to work hard to be better than SHIELD. that show isn't very good. If it's anywhere near as good as Arrow, then it will be a pleasure to watch. 

That being said, I already hate the idea of them trying to bring The Joker into this. Unless they do it in a really cool way. For me , that way would be introducing a bunch of characters throughout the series that could potentially be The Joker. Having multiple characters with multiple origins but never saying which one (if any) will be the Joker would be a brilliant move.

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## Maxpower00044

> Looks like that means It'll interfere with me watching monday night raw....


You could always DVR it. Also, it will most likely be 'On Demand'.

Wait (it's been a while), doesn't RAW start at 9pm?

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## Batmankoff

> Looks like that means It'll interfere with me watching monday night raw....


Not to mention Monday Night Football. Putting a show like this on Monday nights seems like a mistake. There's already a lot of competition for the 18-35 year old male demo.

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## Batmankoff

> That being said, I already hate the idea of them trying to bring The Joker into this. Unless they do it in a really cool way. For me , that way would be introducing a bunch of characters throughout the series that could potentially be The Joker. Having multiple characters with multiple origins but never saying which one (if any) will be the Joker would be a brilliant move.


I think its a great idea, but I'm concerned that:

1. The angle will never be properly carried out. If they go the Smallville route and only introduce Batman at the end, then all the time spent building someone into the Joker will have very little payoff, since we might not get to seem them actually do Joker stuff.

or

2. The temptation to run with this plot thread becomes too great and we wind up with a Joker without a Batman, which removes a lot of what makes the character interesting to begin with.

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

> For me , that way would be introducing a bunch of characters throughout the series that could potentially be The Joker. Having multiple characters with multiple origins but never saying which one (if any) will be the Joker would be a brilliant move.


I like that idea. Like the movie Zodiac. Have a bunch of people who definitely seem like they are 100% certainly going to be the Joker. But they can't all be, right? Maybe none of them are?

That's the smartest way to keep the mystery alive without ignoring him altogether.

----------


## The World

> What Hope Does This Show Have At Matching Agents of shield and arrow?


But those shows suck.

----------


## Punisher007

No, they really don't.  Anyway, this show shouldn't worry about "matching" anything.  It should focus on being it's own thing.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> But those shows suck.


Arrow's awesome. I do agree about Shield, though.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Not to mention Monday Night Football. Putting a show like this on Monday nights seems like a mistake. There's already a lot of competition for the 18-35 year old male demo.


MNF starts at 9, so we are golden!

----------


## Batmankoff

> MNF starts at 9, so we are golden!


NFL Schedule says 8:30. It might not be a huge deal either way. Sleepy Hollow went head to head with MNF and did well enough to get renewed, and it doesn't have the built in audience that Batman has.

----------


## Maxpower00044

I'm pretty sure that's pre-game, unless they are trying something different this year and starting early. 


Edit: or, it could've been 830 since 2012 and I just didn't realize it (which seems to be the case).

----------


## ABH

> What Hope Does This Show Have At Matching Agents of shield and arrow?


The only thing this show needs to do is survive being on FOX...

I'd say that "Almost Human" was similar enough to "SHIELD", but far better (imo), and yet it get's cancelled while SHIELD lives on. Beyond the fact that this is based on a comic property, I don't see a lot of similarities with Gotham, Arrow, or SHIELD.

----------


## Adam West

Just watch the trailer. I think it's gonna be terrible, and it's a damn shame. Why can't they just adapt Gotham Central?

----------


## Professor Moriarty

i'm becoming more and more interested in this show.

----------


## lancerman

> Just watch the trailer. I think it's gonna be terrible, and it's a damn shame. Why can't they just adapt Gotham Central?


Because Gotham Central was ultimately a failure and didn't sell. And that was within the comic bubble where you are going to have far more people than anywhere else invested in that kind of story. It was only kept alive because higher ups loved the book and were willing to take the hit with the hopes that it would see improved sales, which never happened. 

The thing that made Gotham Central a critical darling was also the thing that limited it and led to its own demise. Nobody is going to look at that and say, "hey this didn't make money, lets adapt it at a far more expensive rate and hope that it's different this time around".

----------


## son of booyah

> Because Gotham Central was ultimately a failure and didn't sell. And that was within the comic bubble where you are going to have far more people than anywhere else invested in that kind of story. It was only kept alive because higher ups loved the book and were willing to take the hit with the hopes that it would see improved sales, which never happened. 
> 
> The thing that made Gotham Central a critical darling was also the thing that limited it and led to its own demise. Nobody is going to look at that and say, "hey this didn't make money, lets adapt it at a far more expensive rate and hope that it's different this time around".


I would hardly describe Gotham Central as a failure, unless you only read comic industry spreadsheets and not actual comics. However I do think you're right on your last point, from a business standpoint that would be stupid.

I hate TV, especially shows like what Gotham looks like it is going to become - in principle.  I don't like blockbuster movies either, but I enjoyed the hell out of The Dark Knight even though it had all the blockbuster weaknesses most movies like that have, if that makes sense. I'm hopeful that for its medium and form, Gotham will be good; I expect melodrama and the tropes of the serial crime drama in general, but I have a feeling this will end up a solid take on the franchise. I'm looking forward to the premiere.

----------


## heyevaxx

There's a new 3minute 21second official video up with new footage and some cast/creator's comments:
*First Look | GOTHAM*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REoELMS5tXc

There's a comment at YouTube by RogueScholarBlue that I very much agree with about Camren Bicondova's "look" being great for Catwoman. While Camren doesn't have dark hair, she does have green eyes and bears a striking resemblance to Michelle Pfeiffer, to me the gold standard of movie/tv Catwomen despite not having Selina's black mane. 

My concern is her voice and her acting. She's right around the age when her voice might be changing and she's only acted in a dance movie, Battlefield America (2012).  In this short interview from 2 years ago she talks about how hard it was for her to "channel her inner bad girl" since she's a really nice kid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbAT3OIclZc

I really hope Camren can channel both good and bad to get that eclectic, plays by her own rules quality that Selina has always had (except under Carlton and Nocenti, those weren't/aren't Selina IMHO).

Plus, having this be GCPD focused with Godon and Bullock starring along with young versions of famous good/bad/grey guys/gals is fantastic. Pure super-hero/villain shoes don't seem to make it in prime time and just doing Gotham Central might leave viewers, both comic and non-comic types, yearning for something more. I think the trick will be getting the balance right, not too much police procedural and not too much pandering to big name comic stars.

----------


## The Red Monk

> There's a new 3minute 21second official video up with new footage and some cast/creator's comments:
> *First Look | GOTHAM*
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REoELMS5tXc
> 
> There's a comment at YouTube by RogueScholarBlue that I very much agree with about Camren Bicondova's "look" being great for Catwoman. While Camren doesn't have dark hair, she does have green eyes and bears a striking resemblance to Michelle Pfeiffer, to me the gold standard of movie/tv Catwomen despite not having Selina's black mane. 
> 
> My concern is her voice and her acting. She's right around the age when her voice might be changing and she's only acted in a dance movie, Battlefield America (2012).  In this short interview from 2 years ago she talks about how hard it was for her to "channel her inner bad girl" since she's a really nice kid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbAT3OIclZc
> 
> I really hope Camren can channel both good and bad to get that eclectic, plays by her own rules quality that Selina has always had (except under Carlton and Nocenti, those weren't/aren't Selina IMHO).
> ...


Oh, God, no.

I don't have high hopes for _Gotham_, but I wouldn't want it to be anything like _Battlestar Galactica_.

----------


## EdwardNigma

The new trailer makes it even more interesting.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

Gotham really has to impress the viewers because fox is paying for the rights to use these characters and they can't take it too slow when it's all one big risk for them

arrow and the flash are on a network that has lower expectations than others and since the cw is closely tied in with Warner Brothers they don't have to pay to use the characters

Agents Of Shield is backed up by ABC Marvel Studios And Disney....it's practically an advertisement for the marvel cinematic universe(tying into the films and the aftermath of each film)

gotham has no safety net no back ups whatsoever....they have to attract casuals and comic fans alike  they can't afford to take too many risks when this show existing on fox is already a risk

----------


## heyevaxx

Here's Camren Bicondova on playing young Selina in Gotham:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhza7ryj07k#t=0m31s
Very nice, composed answer for a 14 year old. And her voice is changing quite a bit compared to older interviews I've heard, it sounds good. I'm very interested in how Selina is written, directed and acted. My hunch is there might not be much screen time for her considering the big cast and focus on Gordon and Bullock. But hopefully, the bits of Selina we get will be decent.

----------


## Ragged Robin

Mini Catwoman and Mini Poison Ivy in costume? Looks awful..

----------


## heyevaxx

IGN has posted an interview with young Selina Kyle (Camren Bicondova) and young Bruce Wayne (David Mazouz).

The teen actors seem to have a good rapport which should transfer nicely to the show.

*Gotham Stars Camren Bicondova and David Mazouz on Playing the Young Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne*
Catwoman and Batman Begin again.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/06/...nd-bruce-wayne

----------


## Nick Miller

sorry, naysayers, but the show is going to be GREAT.

the people working on this show know what they are doing. That's pretty obvious/

oh, and Camren Bicondova will be the world's biggest star within 5 years. That's pretty obvious.

----------


## Mantis Girl 94

Well it is only a few months away from FOX's Gotham Series hitting the airways.

Are any of you excited about it being the next Smallville?  (before anyone puts down Smallville it did bring a lot of fans on board that were not comic fans to begin with for Kal)  ... like me LOL

Do you see it being a great success for Batman or a TV series that will be easily forgotten? 

I for one am very excited about it and the few clips that I have seen have made me want to watch it from day one and also keep up on the Batman!

Thoughts?

----------


## lancerman

> Well it is only a few months away from FOX's Gotham Series hitting the airways.
> 
> Are any of you excited about it being the next Smallville?  (before anyone puts down Smallville it did bring a lot of fans on board that were not comic fans to begin with for Kal)  ... like me LOL
> 
> Do you see it being a great success for Batman or a TV series that will be easily forgotten? 
> 
> I for one am very excited about it and the few clips that I have seen have made me want to watch it from day one and also keep up on the Batman!
> 
> Thoughts?


I don't think it will be like Smallville. Unless they SORAS the kid in a few seasons. The expectation won't be there for him to dawn the suit and be Batman as long as he's a young kid. That's what plagued Smallville. You had an audience ready and waiting for Superman after three or so seasons. And it only got worse as they moved to Metropolis, introduced Lois, brought in Braniac, a more evil Luthor, Zod, Doomsday. And Gordon's the main character at least for now.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> sorry, naysayers, but the show is going to be GREAT.
> 
> the people working on this show know what they are doing. That's pretty obvious/
> 
> oh, and Camren Bicondova will be the world's biggest star within 5 years. That's pretty obvious.


I like Camren and wish her the best of luck but I hope they don't make her grow up too soon.

----------


## brucekent12

The show is going to be great! The trailer looks wonderful, as do all the actors. IMHO this show will be one of the big hits of the fall.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> The show is going to be great! The trailer looks wonderful, as do all the actors. IMHO this show will be one of the big hits of the fall.


COMPLETELY agree! Can't wait.

----------


## heyevaxx

There were two VIP cast and press screenings in NYC and LA for Gotham that were "seemingly very well received." Sounds good!

There are about 20 pics with Selina, Harvey and Bruce representing in LA and the rest of the Gothamites in NYC.

Here's the article and some choice pics.
_
Photos: The Gotham Cast At Last Night’s Screenings June 13, 2014
Cast members and producers from Gotham joined members of the press for two seemingly very well received screenings of the Gotham pilot last night (June 12).
The East Coast “Tastemaker” screening in New York was held at the Crosby Street Hotel, while the West Coast event took place at the iPic Theatre in Westwood, California._







PS - some select press quotes:
Gotham Premiere Episode: First Early Reviews Are Positive
_
Examiner columnist Phyllis Thomas tweeted, “Loved the screening of @Gotham @ben_mckenzie and @donallogue are the ultimate bad ass team. Can't forget @jadapsmith and Fish. This fall”

AP writer Alicia Rancilio tweeted, “Just caught an advance screening of the #Gotham premiere. Loved it. So good. Excited for @ben_mckenzie and the rest of the cast.”

TV Guide editor Adam Bryant tweeted, “Had a great time at the @Gotham screening. Very intrigued to see more. Great chatting with you again, @ben_mckenzie!”

Give Me My Remote’s Marisa Roffman tweeted, “Loved seeing #Gotham on the big-screen. Gorgeous show, and Ben McKenzie and Donal Logue make great on-screen partners. Excited for ep 2!”_

----------


## EdwardNigma

> There were two VIP cast and press screenings in NYC and LA for Gotham that were "seemingly very well received." Sounds good!
> 
> There are about 20 pics with Selina, Harvey and Bruce representing in LA and the rest of the Gothamites in NYC.
> 
> Here's the article and some choice pics.
> _
> Photos: The Gotham Cast At Last Nights Screenings June 13, 2014
> Cast members and producers from Gotham joined members of the press for two seemingly very well received screenings of the Gotham pilot last night (June 12).
> The East Coast Tastemaker screening in New York was held at the Crosby Street Hotel, while the West Coast event took place at the iPic Theatre in Westwood, California._
> ...


Can't wait to see the first episode.

----------


## Mister BoMan

Fall can't get here fast enough!

----------


## heyevaxx

New revolving door Gotham ads for Selina and Oswald. I can't wait!


SELINA KYLE

BEFORE THERE WAS CATWOMAN,
THERE WAS
GOTHAM



OSWALD COBBLEPOT

BEFORE THERE WAS PENGUIN,
THERE WAS
GOTHAM

----------


## Rakiduam

Villains | GOTHAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=islRZ_ygKk8

----------


## heyevaxx

8 new pics of Gotham are up and they look great!

My only quibble is "Ivy Pepper" - why not good old Pamela Isley? Oh well, it's a tiny thing and good writing, directing and acting will make me forget it and enjoy the new young Ivy.

*Det. James Gordon (Ben McKenzie): Idealistic new kid in town; a good cop saddled with a cynical partner (Donal Logue) who’s determined to play by the rules in a city that doesn’t have any.
Det. Harvey Bullock (Donal Logue) Gordon’s pragmatic, cynical partner*

----------


## heyevaxx

Hmm, Selina is *already* a master thief? Interesting ... I can't wait to find out young Selina's history. Yet another Catwoman origin story!  :Smile: 

*Bruce Wayne (David Mazouz): Newly orphaned with enormous wealth, a 12-year-old seeking a new purpose for his life after witnessing his parent’s murder.
Selina Kyle / Catwoman (Camren Bicondova): A dangerous teen orphan and agile master thief adept at navigating the labyrinthian city.*

----------


## heyevaxx

*Fish Mooney (Jada Pinkett Smith): A new character to this world — an underworld gangster, club owner and boss of Cobblepot.
Oswald Cobblepot / The Penguin (Robin Lord Taylor): The psychopathic umbrella-touting underling for crime boss Fish Mooney (Jada Pinkett Smith), who is full of secret ambitions.*

----------


## heyevaxx

*Edward Nygma / The Riddler (Cory Michael Smith): A brilliant young forensic scientist working at Gotham PD with a penchant for speaking in, um, cryptic language.
Ivy Pepper / Poison Ivy (Clare Foley): Not too much known about the Gotham version of her character yet. Likes plants though.*

----------


## ABH

FYI all -- I changed the thread title from "Gotham Official Extended Trailer Is Up" to " Gotham - FOX TV Show Discussion".

----------


## EdwardNigma

> FYI all -- I changed the thread title from "Gotham Official Extended Trailer Is Up" to " Gotham - FOX TV Show Discussion".


I hope the Riddler is in it heavily for obvious reasons.

----------


## The Red Monk

Gotta say, I really don't dig the idea of a teenage Selina Kyle already being a master thief. A decent pick-pocket, sure. A thirteen year-old master thief, though? GTFO.

I like the Riddler being a forensic scientist with the GCPD, though. Quite a logical place to go with the character, now that I think about it.

Ivy Pepper...ugh. What, was Pamela Isley not obvious enough? And I really dislike the "creepy, socially ostracized kid" angle they're pushing here.

I'm curious about Fish Mooney, but why couldn't they use Carmine Falcone instead? Or is Falcone supposed to come into power later, before Batman arrives in Gotham and kicks his ass?

----------


## Punisher007

Why limit themselves only to established Bat-characters.  As you say, there's nothing to keep them from using Falcone, or Maroni, or Rupert Thorne later.  Maybe they're holding off on using the first two because they were just both featured in the Nolan films.  I also don't like the "Ivy Pepper" name, although I think that that could turn out to be a false name.  Young Riddler and Penguin look really good.

----------


## sanderling

You know, this show was not even on my radar.  But that was a really good trailer and it has an interesting premise.  May have to check it out...  Thanks!

----------


## EdwardNigma

I am glad it is getting some hype now.

----------


## heyevaxx

Big thanks to chipsnopotatoes on the new video link with about 2 minutes of interviews with the Gotham cast including young Bruce, young Selina, Penguin, Mooney and Gordon.

I love David and Camren's vibe. They both seem smart and on message about their characters and the show. And Bats had better learn not to interrupt Cats!  :Smile:

----------


## heyevaxx

Hero | GOTHAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlsuG1paO04

*Gotham premieres Monday September 22 8pm on Fox*

----------


## godisawesome

> Gotta say, I really don't dig the idea of a teenage Selina Kyle already being a master thief. A decent pick-pocket, sure. A thirteen year-old master thief, though? GTFO.
> 
> I like the Riddler being a forensic scientist with the GCPD, though. Quite a logical place to go with the character, now that I think about it.
> 
> Ivy Pepper...ugh. What, was Pamela Isley not obvious enough? And I really dislike the "creepy, socially ostracized kid" angle they're pushing here.
> 
> I'm curious about Fish Mooney, but why couldn't they use Carmine Falcone instead? Or is Falcone supposed to come into power later, before Batman arrives in Gotham and kicks his ass?


The way I have it figured, Selina's a thirteen year old petty burglar, not a master thief. She's shown stealing milk in the production stills, and she's an acrobat, so think less classy cat burglar and more Aladdin-esque street rat who can stay alive but never really profit from their robberies just yet. And that actually seems believable to me; it beats the "dominatrix uses mysterious hooker powers to suddenly become a master thief" origin of Year One, and she has no need to have cats lick her to give her abilities here like in Returns or the Zero issue. She's got one feature of her future self, the free-running aspect (which I'm betting they'll have her teach Bruce) but she's far from the conwoman and impossible thief shell later be.

I'm betting on Harvey or someone else belittling Nygma a few times too often until he starts small scale blackmail and prank attacks and then slowly escalates. 

Ivy Pepper does seem stupid at first glance.

I've also got Fish pegged for a Penguin lead usurpation. She's his boss, and he's a low level thug at the moment.

----------


## Mgoldman14

I just hope they don't make a joker origin. That'll ruin his character.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I just hope they don't make a joker origin. That'll ruin his character.


We haven't heard enough either way yet.

----------


## SmokeMonster

Right....because a Joker origin story has never been successful...

----------


## Michael24

> I just hope they don't make a joker origin. That'll ruin his character.


They've hinted at the Joker, but have stated he likely wouldn't be around "for awhile," because they know his appearance would be a very big deal and they'd want to make sure they did it right and not just rush into it for the sake of saying "Hey, look, Joker's here this week."

----------


## heyevaxx

Here's the new SDCC poster for Gotham:

----------


## heyevaxx

Here's the list of Fox activities for Gotham at the San Diego Comic-Con. Fox definitely seems to be all in with their Gotham commitment. The zip line through Gotham sounds like a blast; I hope someone uploads a video of the experience.

Note, there's other, non-Gotham Fox stuff at SDCC, just check http://www.fox.com/comic-con-2014/ Sorry about the caps, they're from Fox.

FOX CONQUERS SAN DIEGO COMIC-CON WITH WORLD PREMIERE SCREENINGS AND PANEL DEBUTS OF GOTHAM AND WAYWARD PINES

FLY THROUGH GOTHAM CITY ON THE EXCLUSIVE GOTHAM ZIP LINE

RIDE ALONG FREE IN UBER GOTHAM POLICE CARS

GOTHAM  ZIP LINE
Where:	Between the SD Convention Center and the Hilton Bayfront Hotel
When:	Thursday, July 24  Sunday, July 27
Hours:	10:00 AM - 6:00 PM Daily

EXPERIENCE
FOX will create Gotham City for fans to channel their inner superhero by ziplining (130 feet long and 30 feet high) through the GOTHAM city landscape! Following the adrenalized experience, participants will receive a shareable photo of their heroic zip line experience and will be awarded with exclusive GOTHAM prizes. Follow fox.com/comiccon2014 to find out when GOTHAM producers and cast, including stars Ben McKenzie and Donal Logue, will be making appearances at the experience.

GOTHAM UBER POLICE CARS
Where:	Downtown San Diego
When:	Thursday, July 24  Sunday, July 27
Hours:	Thursday  4:00 PM  10:00 PM
		Friday  2:00 PM  12:00 AM
		Saturday  12:00 PM  12:00 AM
		Sunday  10:00 AM  2:00 PM

EXPERIENCE
For the fans afoot at SDCC who are UBER users, specially-designed GOTHAM police cars will hit the San Diego streets to pick up passengers throughout the convention weekend  for free  via the UBER app, by selecting GOTHAM PD on the UBER slider. Inside the GOTHAM-branded cars, passengers will get a sneak preview of special GOTHAM content. Those fans who are new to UBER and who sign up for the app using the code GOTHAMPD will get a free first ride up to $30, wherever UBER is available. Track the GOTHAM patrol rides on UBERs San Diego Twitter (https://twitter.com/uber_sd) and Instagram (http://instagram.com/uber_sd).

EXCLUSIVE LIMITED-EDITION COMIC-CON ITEMS
Drop by the FOX FANFARE booth (#4229) daily to pick up the 2014 FOX FANFARE Poster Tube, as well as Exclusive and Collectible Mini-Posters from BOBS BURGERS, BONES, FAMILY GUY, THE FOLLOWING, GOTHAM, THE SIMPSONS, SLEEPY HOLLOW and WAYWARD PINES, among other FOX FANFARE properties.

Limited-edition giveaways will also be distributed from the booth (while supplies last):
- GOTHAM Lenticular Collectibles

SATURDAY, JULY 26
Panels:
GOTHAM 8:00-11:00 PM  Hall H (Presented by Warner Bros. Television)
FOX, Warner Bros. Television and DC Entertainment present the World Premiere of GOTHAM, with special appearances by cast members Ben McKenzie, Donal Logue, Jada Pinkett Smith, Robin Lord Taylor, Erin Richards, Camren Bicondova and David Mazouz,along with executive producers Bruno Heller, Danny Cannon and John Stephens.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

I actually like what I'm seeing with GOTHAM.  But I am definitely reminded of SMALLVILLE.

I think GOTHAM will be to Batman (and his fanbase) what SMALLVILLE was to Superman (and his fanbase): a divisive prequel tv show with increasingly more of the mythos on display in unusual forms, with the hero himself not showing up in costume until the very last episode of the entire show.  

A couple of key differences.

GOTHAM is on Fox, while SMALLVILLE was on the WB/CW network.  GOTHAM will be seen (potentially) by way more people than SMALLVILLE ever was. 

SMALLVILLE never had the production value that GOTHAM already seems to own.  This is probably tied into which networks they were aired on.

SMALLVILLE had its star actor at real age 25 playing a 15-year-old.  GOTHAM has its star{?} actor at real age 13 playing a 10 {12?}-year-old.  That will help GOTHAM, as it hurt SMALLVILLE.

Presuming Fox doesn't can this new show 3 episodes into its premiere season, how long do you think GOTHAM can go on?  10 seasons like SMALLVILLE?

----------


## Don C

I don't think ratings will be a problem for two or three years. I think the show will do respectable, but not a smash hit. Top 20 but not Top 10. I think the biggest problem the show will run into is cost. It looks like it might be an expensive show to make and I don't know if it will do enough ratings to merit a long-term run.

----------


## Maxpower00044

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/07/...sode-of-gotham




> Basically, every episode in the first season will introduce a character that might be a future Joker, each emphasising aspects of the character’s iconography, a card sharp, a flower seller, a clown, or just a guy with a very big grin.


If this is the route they go, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

----------


## heyevaxx

The new Gotham video is short but looks great. No Bruce and no Ivy (I'm unable to type her new first name).

I hope Aloe Blacc's "Ticking Bomb" that's played during Gordon's narration isn't the theme song and isn't a reoccurring song used in the show. The cinematic music they've used up to now in the little videos had been perfect.

The Good. The Evil. The Beginning. | GOTHAM

----------


## EdwardNigma

The show looks really promising. I also like the multiple potential origins for the Joker. Way to circumvent the problem.

----------


## K. Jones

> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/07/...sode-of-gotham
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the route they go, I'll be pleasantly surprised.


It's such a cool idea. Although part of me is just like "oh, it'll be the six foot four kid!"

...

Joker's tall.

Hahaha.

----------


## K. Jones

My thought, reading that SDCC Fox announcement ... was just how superlative "City" has become to talking about Gotham.

I'm not sure how necessary it is anymore, and I wonder if _GOTHAM_ will almost strip it from the public conscious. It's not as if we won't all know that it was more common before to call it "Gotham City" in full, just that it'll seem kind of quaint and old-timey, like it belongs on the '66 show.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> My thought, reading that SDCC Fox announcement ... was just how superlative "City" has become to talking about Gotham.
> 
> I'm not sure how necessary it is anymore, and I wonder if _GOTHAM_ will almost strip it from the public conscious. It's not as if we won't all know that it was more common before to call it "Gotham City" in full, just that it'll seem kind of quaint and old-timey, like it belongs on the '66 show.


Interesting point.

----------


## the nomad

I got the sense of what they're trying to do but I think they should have consulted Tim Burton on just how rundown, and dreary Gotham should be, this Gotham look a bit Nolan-esque, which to me is...meh. Although that's just my two cents.  And even though I haven't seen the show just yet, but I will, I wonder would it have been better with the main players being a bit older and Bruce, Selina, Riddler etc all lurking in the background.

----------


## Michael24

> I got the sense of what they're trying to do but I think they should have consulted Tim Burton on just how rundown, and dreary Gotham should be, this Gotham look a bit Nolan-esque, which to me is...meh.


I think they've basically addressed this by saying the show starts when Gotham is just on the brink of falling apart and descending into the rundown, crime-riddled city we ultimately know it as.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I think they've basically addressed this by saying the show starts when Gotham is just on the brink of falling apart and descending into the rundown, crime-riddled city we ultimately know it as.


I agree. I think we will get a sense of "impending doom" for the city which will be interesting to watch.

----------


## heyevaxx

New set photos of Camren Bicondova as young Selina from my-life-as-kylona.tumblr.com

----------


## EdwardNigma

Supposedly Hugo Strange and the origin of Arkham will also be in this!!

----------


## Nick Miller

> Supposedly Hugo Strange and the origin of Arkham will also be in this!!


Amazeballs!

SO much story potential.

If this is a hit for Fox it can go for 10 years, each season having a giant arc, about a specific aspect of the Gotham mythos.

----------


## heyevaxx

Nice 6 minute interview with Edward Nigma and young Selina Kyle. I like the Riddler qualities and evolution described. Plus, the Bats and Cats relationship is explored some.

My favorite line is by Camren when asked about Selina and Bruce:
"Through daydreaming, I've come up with ..."

*Cory Michael Smith & Camren Bicondova Talk 'Gotham'*
http://www.accesshollywood.com/cory-..._video_2260837

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Amazeballs!
> 
> SO much story potential.
> 
> If this is a hit for Fox it can go for 10 years, each season having a giant arc, about a specific aspect of the Gotham mythos.


That would be AWESOME!

----------


## godisawesome

Turns out the guy saying "I Love This City" in the main trailer played by Bill Rawls is Carmine Falcone.

Cool.

----------


## heyevaxx

Slick looking Gotham Chronicle has gone online. Love the police station interior plus nice pics from the show in a news format.

Also, John Doman as Carmine Falcone! What great casting, he was a freaking terror in The Wire as Major Rawls. He should be incredible as Falcone.

*Gotham's Most Trusted News Source*
http://gothamchronicle.com/

----------


## brucekent12

Keeps looking better and better. Can't wait!

----------


## ABH

> Also, John Doman as Carmine Falcone! What great casting, he was a freaking terror in The Wire as Major Rawls. He should be incredible as Falcone.


That's awesome. If they can bring in some more talent from The Wire, that would be great.

----------


## beetlebum

> Slick looking Gotham Chronicle has gone online. Love the police station interior plus nice pics from the show in a news format.
> 
> Also, John Doman as Carmine Falcone! What great casting, he was a freaking terror in The Wire as Major Rawls. He should be incredible as Falcone.
> 
> *Gotham's Most Trusted News Source*
> 
> [Snipped for space]


That's a clever bit of advertising right there.

I really like the design of the Gotham Chronicle, as it invokes the look of real life periodicals like the New York Times and The Telegraph.

I am also intrigued by the fact that they cast John Rawls as Carmine Falcone. Any time you have an alum from The Wire on your show, then you have my interest piqued.

----------


## heyevaxx

There's a Joker teaser Easter Egg in *Gotham Chronicle - Take Gotham Back | GOTHAM*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWM17KAfToI

At the 6th second right when the gun is being pointed at the camera in slow mo, the video alternately flashes all white, text, all white, etc a frame at a time. The text flashed is:
MURDER
RAPE
ROBBERY
ASSAULT
DRUGS
MURDER
ROBBERY
HA HA HA
ASSAULT

The HA HA HA is a different font and is definitely "Joker-ish."
*GothamChronicle-06.714-HAHAHA.png*



There's another Joker tease in *The Good. The Evil. The Beginning. (Extended Trailer) | GOTHAM*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3MWXRT7GU8

At second 35, Bullock is lifting the sheet over the Wayne bodies to show Gordon as blood runs on the sheet and the shadow of their heads make a Joker-ish smile:
*TheGoodTheEvilTheBeginningExt-039.072-Smile.png*

----------


## Kid A

I'm trying to be optimistic about this show because the trailer looked good, but all this Joker talk makes it sound like they're ready to jump the shark before the first episode even airs.

----------


## godisawesome

I'm more inclined to be afraid of the show being overstuffed with the confirmed characters before I'd worry about the Joker. I've read about six reviews of the pilot. Most were positive, all acknowledged its potential, but the two more pessimistic reviews said the pilot was too unfocused with too many people. I know that's unlikely to apply to me, since I actually enjoy crowded plots with competing subplots at war with one another, but I can see those poor people who can't keep up with a single subplot crying at this thing. I just hope there's few enough of them that more "geeky" watchers can fuel a strong base for the show, and the stories are still engaging enough for mainstream fans. This things going to have a solid core of comic fans, the question is how other demographics will respond.

Joker's been confirmed to not quite appear in the show officially, but to instead have a few candidates tossed out. There's a comedian in the pilot, and talk of a card shark in no not her episode, and some mention of trying to cover most possible identities of the Joker throughout the show. If they found a guy and stuck with him, I'd be very worried, but if they kept their options open and just introduced the Red Hood Gang, I'd say they could rev up the Joker story without jumping the shark.

----------


## ABH

> I'm trying to be optimistic about this show because the trailer looked good, but all this Joker talk makes it sound like they're ready to jump the shark before the first episode even airs.


Yeah, it's already feeling like too much, too soon.

I'm mainly interested in Gordon and Bullock -- but with all these proto-villains, and now teasing the biggest one of them all... I just don't know.

----------


## ispacehead

Honestly, I'm not holding my breath for this and I'm not surprised by the foul reviews of the first episode. 

It doesn't seem like it'll be any better than Beware the Batman.

----------


## TheSontaran

Haven't read through all this thread, but saw the comment about Catwoman being a young teen.  She actually was a thief at an early age from what I understood from her origin stories, at least pre Flashpoint.  She was part of a circus as well, stayed at an orphanage house at some point, but had become a thief very very early.

So it's not outside the realm of possibility.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Joker's been confirmed to not quite appear in the show officially, but to instead have a few candidates tossed out. There's a comedian in the pilot, and talk of a card shark in no not her episode, and some mention of trying to cover most possible identities of the Joker throughout the show. If they found a guy and stuck with him, I'd be very worried, but if they kept their options open and just introduced the Red Hood Gang, I'd say they could rev up the Joker story without jumping the shark.


Not only that, the report that Proto-Joker was going to happen every episode was false. The show runners said that it will happen sparingly over the course of the seasons.


I've read two reviews. One said it was better than the Flash, and Constantine pilots, also saying it was better than Arrow. The other one was a negative review saying it was unfocused and had a lot going on. I'll reserve my judgment until I actually watch it. There's no need for me to jump to conclusions, yet.

----------


## Kid A

> Not only that, the report that Proto-Joker was going to happen every episode was false. The show runners said that it will happen sparingly over the course of the seasons.
> 
> 
> I've read two reviews. One said it was better than the Flash, and Constantine pilots, also saying it was better than Arrow. The other one was a negative review saying it was unfocused and had a lot going on. I'll reserve my judgment until I actually watch it. There's no need for me to jump to conclusions, yet.


I can forgive being unfocused on the pilot of all episodes.  This show probably won't be as good as The Wire, but that's still a good example of a show that flawlessly covers a cast amount of characters and subplots, while managing to still keep a cohesive narrative.  That approach works when you're doing a show about an entire city.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Honestly, I'm not holding my breath for this and I'm not surprised by the foul reviews of the first episode. 
> 
> It doesn't seem like it'll be any better than Beware the Batman.


There was only one "bad" review that I am aware of and all it cited was a lack of focus. There were good reviews as well. We should just hold judgement until we actually WATCH the show (though some will judge regardless of if it is amazing or not).

----------


## ispacehead

> There was only one "bad" review that I am aware of and all it cited was a lack of focus. There were good reviews as well.


I live in SoCal so I know a whole bunch of local fans that went to San Diego.






> We should just hold judgement until we actually WATCH the show (though some will judge regardless of if it is amazing or not).


And by contrast, I'm sure there will be many that enjoy the show regardless of how bad it might be.

Regardless of the reviews, I just haven't found any reason to be excited about this show yet.

The bat-babies angle doesn't thrill me.

If this is the Batman take on Smallville, it likely just isn't going to be for me.

----------


## Howl

Did anyone here attend Comic-Con and nab a couple of those GCPD promo badges?
Living on the other side of the world has its disadvantages and I was looking to buy one if someone has a spare. I'm trying to steer clear of the Ebay flippers.
Also, this is my first post since the forum revamp. Shows how often I visit here. Haha.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> I can forgive being unfocused on the pilot of all episodes.  This show probably won't be as good as The Wire, but that's still a good example of a show that flawlessly covers a cast amount of characters and subplots, while managing to still keep a cohesive narrative.  That approach works when you're doing a show about an entire city.



Yeah, I'm willing to bet my house it won't be as good (or even close) to The Wire. I mean, the lead is Ben Mackenzie. How can it be?



I'm still optimistic it will be entertaining though.

----------


## heyevaxx

Excellent 5 minute Camren Bicondova interview from SDCC. 
* She's taking Parkour freerunning training
* They're filming episode 4
* Selina is intrigued over her and Bruce both lacking parents
* On researching comics she says it's amazing how detailed comic fans can be
* She's seen the different takes on Catwoman but "I'm not playing Catwoman ... it's a different part of her life"
* Regarding what she likes: GoT, TB and "I'm obsessed with everything"
* IRL, she's a cat person, big time
* She says Selina is 14 in the show, interviewer goes on with her carrying herself much older IRL
* "Selina is 14 going on 30"

----------


## ABH

> Yeah, I'm willing to bet my house it won't be as good (or even close) to The Wire. I mean, the lead is Ben Mackenzie. How can it be?
> 
> I'm still optimistic it will be entertaining though.


The Wire is still considered one of the best dramas (crime or otherwise), period. So yeah, likely not even close. 

I didn't follow the show when it switched networks, but Southland was pretty good and McKenzie was good in it...

----------


## godisawesome

I heard someone say the show's perfect formula would be part prequel and part L.A. Confidential. I think the idea was prompted by saying that young Gordon looks a bit like Bud White and Ed Exley's love child.

----------


## heyevaxx

Gotham is looking good, I'm so glad they're shooting in New York. It's just hard to get an old, big city feel from younger west coast cities or anything up in Canada. Chicago was decent for Nolan's first two but his Gotham got progressively cleaner and less run down. NYC is the best IMO. 

Daytime shot of the Gotham Arkham Asylum set from http://rainbowjoker.tumblr.com/:

----------


## heyevaxx

And 3 nighttime pics of Arkham from http://batman-news.com/:

----------


## Kid A

Oh awesome, didn't know they're filming this in NYC.  Chicago worked in the Nolan trilogy, but NYC is pretty definitively Gotham's real life counterpart.  It's also expensive to film there I imagine, so I didn't expect it. 

If they're filming, I'd like to go visit the set.

----------


## heyevaxx

It looks like they just filmed the Arkham stuff last night:
August 7th filming - Gotham is filming at Bayley Seton Hospital, 75 Vanderbilt Ave, Staten Island.

On Location Vacations seems pretty up to date with filming locations. If you go, please post some pics!  :Smile: 
http://www.onlocationvacations.com/t...ing-locations/
https://twitter.com/olv/with_replies

Here's some more on Gotham's take on Arkham from ComicBookMovie:
_Bruno Heller was recently quoted as saying, "Hugo Strange is going to pop up because we're going to start dealing with how Arkham was created and why Arkham was created in the way that it was so, yeah, absolutely. It's a Season One thing because in our telling of it the way Arkham was created and the why and how is one of the causes of the particular criminal climate in Gotham that allowed Batman to happen. The revolving door of Arkham is both a brilliant narrative device because it allows you to -- you don't have to kill people off, you can just put them in cold storage"_

----------


## ABH

Nice. There are some of the proto-villains that kind of have me shaking my head, but bringing in the likes of Hugo Strange makes a lot of sense to me.

----------


## Kid A

> It looks like they just filmed the Arkham stuff last night:
> August 7th filming - Gotham is filming at Bayley Seton Hospital, 75 Vanderbilt Ave, Staten Island.
> 
> On Location Vacations seems pretty up to date with filming locations. If you go, please post some pics!


Thanks for the link. 

They post those on the day of it seems, so I'll just have to hope I'm in the city for the right days.

----------


## EdwardNigma

These pics look great. Glad they are incorporating Arkham.

----------


## heyevaxx

Here's a thumbnail gallery of very big, high resolution Gotham promo shots and a lot of pics from a recent photo shoot. Big like 5651x3768.

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/sectio...17/gallery.htm

----------


## Rakiduam

THE LEGEND REBORN Preview Special: Behind The Shadows 

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjn_n...8EsNpx3nA_OYSw

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oI_P...8EsNpx3nA_OYSw

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFfPx...8EsNpx3nA_OYSw

----------


## EdwardNigma

> THE LEGEND REBORN Preview Special: Behind The Shadows 
> 
> Part 1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjn_n...8EsNpx3nA_OYSw
> 
> Part 2
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oI_P...8EsNpx3nA_OYSw
> 
> Part 3
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFfPx...8EsNpx3nA_OYSw


Thanks for this.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Thanks for this.


It is obvious watching these they really put a lot of time and effort into the series.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Still not seeing any Harley Quinn in this show
You would think she would have been one of the first pseudo villains cast with her connection to Arkham
Not really feeling anything besides the cop drama with Gordon and Bullock.
I want this show to be good but it seems like its shaping up as another almost human for Fox and it doesn't even have a Batman appearance to fall back on as it actually becomes good.
shame

----------


## Kid A

Hopefully Harley Quinn isn't anywhere near this show.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Hopefully Harley Quinn isn't anywhere near this show.


Agreed......

----------


## Flash Gordon

Wow I didn't know this was filming in the city! I'll have to check it out.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Yeah though, no way will this even be comparable to THE WIRE. That's one of the greatest television dramas ever made, if not the number 1. 

I really liked SOUTHLAND when it was on, so I'm sure the dude playing Gordon won't be too bad. This is FOX, so I'm a little more forgiving of crappy writing/acting. I usually steer clear of network TV with the exception of stuff like PARKS AND REC, and BROOKLYN NINE-NINE.

----------


## Güicho

Spin-off...
Go to   2:37  ...Well, well, well, if it isn't Montoya & Allen

----------


## MichaelC

> Still not seeing any Harley Quinn in this show
> You would think she would have been one of the first pseudo villains cast with her connection to Arkham
> Not really feeling anything besides the cop drama with Gordon and Bullock.
> I want this show to be good but it seems like its shaping up as another almost human for Fox and it doesn't even have a Batman appearance to fall back on as it actually becomes good.
> shame


Um, Harley would be, at most, 8 years old at this point on the bat-timeline. Possible as young as 4.

----------


## MichaelC

Has anyone else noticed that Fish Mooney seems to be trying to channel Eartha Kitt's Catwoman, right down to things like calling Gordon a "cool drink of milk"? It's weird and doesn't fit the character, but it's there.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Has anyone else noticed that Fish Mooney seems to be trying to channel Eartha Kitt's Catwoman, right down to things like calling Gordon a "cool drink of milk"? It's weird and doesn't fit the character, but it's there.


Very much so. Gordon's going to have his very own Catwoman.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Um, Harley would be, at most, 8 years old at this point on the bat-timeline. Possible as young as 4.


Not seeing it 
I mean the show already has most of the villains being older than Bruce now. Harley is only a few years younger than Ivy and the Joker

----------


## heyevaxx

*THE LEGEND REBORN Preview Special: Heroes & Villains (Part 4) | GOTHAM*

----------


## DemonRin

My expectations for this show are exceedingly low, which is sad because they started out pretty high actually with how much we've seen them get right initially.

However, things like them beating the audience over the head with "OSWALD COBBLEPOT BECOMES THE PENGUIN GAIS!!  PENGUIN REFERENCES!  PENGUIN REFERENCES EVERYWHERE!!" and the infuriating "Ivy Pepper" staring me in the face after EVERYONE Else seems to have gotten to keep their normal name and origins.... I think I'll wait until it starts airing and see how reception is and see if they undo the whole "Ivy Pepper" crap last minute.

I can tell you tho, if she remains "Ivy Pepper" and that's just it, they changed her name because: Reasons... I won't be watching.

----------


## Predator JP

why didn' they just adapt Gotham Central.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> My expectations for this show are exceedingly low, which is sad because they started out pretty high actually with how much we've seen them get right initially.
> 
> However, things like them beating the audience over the head with "OSWALD COBBLEPOT BECOMES THE PENGUIN GAIS!!  PENGUIN REFERENCES!  PENGUIN REFERENCES EVERYWHERE!!" and the infuriating "Ivy Pepper" staring me in the face after EVERYONE Else seems to have gotten to keep their normal name and origins.... I think I'll wait until it starts airing and see how reception is and see if they undo the whole "Ivy Pepper" crap last minute.
> 
> I can tell you tho, if she remains "Ivy Pepper" and that's just it, they changed her name because: Reasons... I won't be watching.


You would not watch a show because they renamed the "secret identity" name of Poison Ivy? Wow...........

----------


## The Whovian

I went to the Wizard World Chicago Con on Sat, but missed getting in line early enough to see the premiere showing of the pilot because some of the other panels got out late. I did talk to several people there who saw it though and they said it was excellent.

----------


## Kid A

This looks sooo good.  It's going to be a treat to watch this back to back with Person of Interest.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Watch Later "Selina Kyle" "the Balloon Man"

Have they released that yet?

----------


## The Nuke

> why didn' they just adapt Gotham Central.


DC must have atleast 3 or more missed opportunies a year as mandated by those in charge. It goes towards their bottom line.

But yes adapting Gotham Central would have been the best way to go, and if done right could have lead them in the direction of actually having a show that was possibly even Emmy worthy. Interesting that DC is throwing more GC characters into the mix now though.


In any case, I know what to expect from Gotham, and therefore don't really see much to interest me. I'll check out the first episode.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I view this almost as a Gotham Central. This is about the police and the beginnings of the madness. This is Jim's story. If you view it that way there is a lot to be excited about.

----------


## phonogram12

> I view this almost as a Gotham Central. This is about the police and the beginnings of the madness. This is Jim's story. If you view it that way there is a lot to be excited about.


Yeah, this is exactly how I'm seeing it. Sure they're makeing some decisions I don't exactly agree with, but overall I'm really looking forward to this.

----------


## Kid A

> But yes adapting Gotham Central would have been the best way to go, and if done right could have lead them in the direction of actually having a show that was possibly even Emmy worthy.


That's not how Emmy's work though.  Shows can be good without being whatever direction you would have wanted instead.

----------


## The Nuke

I agree, but I fully expect Gotham to eventually falter. Which will lend credit to not just adapting Gotham Central being a missed opportunity.

Whether that is right or wrong assumption isn't the point, the point is that criticism will make it right.

----------


## Kid A

It really just depends on how well thought out everything is.  If the show falters, it will be because they didn't think out the long run, not because this isn't Gotham Central (which isn't an inherently better premise).

----------


## The Nuke

It all depends how it works. How interesting the characters are? etc.

This has unfortunate possibly of just being another cop show set in a comic book city, and using Batmans villains as a way gain it's target audience. Will it be anything more than that? The goofiest element to the whole thing is the pre-villains making appearances.

If you ask me GC would be a better premise. It's set in a world with Batman, with his criminals fully formed. It's about a bunch of special department cops, all diverse, doing their best to solve cases before Batman does. More about the people than the cases. Not to mention a bunch of regular people haveing to go against a rogue gallery of villains that they aren't prepared to fight. Feels like a better idea to me.

Granted, I'm seeing my version of GC in my head, and its about as good as I want it to be.

----------


## Kid A

> It all depends how it works. How interesting the characters are? etc.
> 
> This has unfortunate possibly of just being another cop show set in a comic book city, and using Batmans villains as a way gain it's target audience. Will it be anything more than that? The goofiest element to the whole thing is the pre-villains making appearances.
> 
> If you ask me GC would be a better premise. It's set in a world with Batman, with his criminals fully formed. It's about a bunch of special department cops, all diverse, doing their best to solve cases before Batman does. More about the people than the cases. Not to mention a bunch of regular people haveing to go against a rogue gallery of villains that they aren't prepared to fight. Feels like a better idea to me.
> 
> Granted, I'm seeing my version of GC in my head, and its about as good as I want it to be.


I dunno, I mean I can't see how fully formed rogues are somehow less goofy than "pre-villains."  At the risk of making too many presumptions here, I would argue that GC runs the greater risk of being a run of the mill cop show, because essentially, it would be a show about cops going after psychopaths, with Batman making cameo appearances. 

At least here, they're doing a Wire-esque approach at Gotham City, exploring the police department, the underworld, the infrastructure, etc.  It's chronicling an often overlooked period of time, given how Batman's origin story usually fasts forward from his childhood tragedy to young adulthood.  Whether they miss the target or not, there's potential.

----------


## brucekent12

IMHO, you have to remember GC had its fanbase, but it wasn't enough to sustain its readership for the long haul. Gotham is centering the show on a young Jim Gordon, before Bruce even thought of being the Bat.The previews lok great, and I can't wait to see this show!

----------


## The Red Monk

> I dunno, I mean I can't see how fully formed rogues are somehow less goofy than "pre-villains."  At the risk of making too many presumptions here, *I would argue that GC runs the greater risk of being a run of the mill cop show, because essentially, it would be a show about cops going after psychopaths, with Batman making cameo appearances*. 
> 
> At least here, they're doing a Wire-esque approach at Gotham City, exploring the police department, the underworld, the infrastructure, etc.  It's chronicling an often overlooked period of time, given how Batman's origin story usually fasts forward from his childhood tragedy to young adulthood.  Whether they miss the target or not, there's potential.


That's interesting, because I would argue the opposite.

How many shows are there about an ordinary police department trying to do their job in a city overrun with various super-villains with different powers and gimmicks, as well as a vigilante dressed as a bat?

How many shows are there about an ordinary police department trying to do their job in a city overrun with crime?

Batman, his allies and his villains would offer a newer dynamic, a third party to throw a spanner in the usual routine of cops vs. criminals. Here, they've effectively missed their one chance to separate _Gotham_ from the rest by showing it back when it was just another city with a crime problem. Now there's practically nothing that differentiates _Gotham_ from, say, _CSI_, _Law & Order_, or any of the myriad of generic cop shows currently on the network.

Also, there's nothing to show that they're doing a _The Wire_-esque approach to Gotham City. It just seems like a generic cop show with a special focus on James Gordon and his relationships with his friends, family, allies and enemies.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Also, there's nothing to show that they're doing a _The Wire_-esque approach to Gotham City. It just seems like a generic cop show with a special focus on James Gordon and his relationships with his friends, family, allies and enemies.


I don't think one goes after Jada Pinkett Smith for a crime boss if they don't intend to use her as a big part of the story. The preview had her talking about how she wants to take on the Falcones. Not saying this will be a new "Wire" but we all know Gotham doesn't get rid of it's criminals so they should be compelling too. We'll see.




> Has anyone else noticed that Fish Mooney seems to be trying to channel Eartha Kitt's Catwoman, right down to things like calling Gordon a "cool drink of milk"? It's weird and doesn't fit the character, but it's there.


I got the vibe but I think it suits her, since she's made up for the show she can fit anything they want into her. She's the femme fatale of the show, which suits a pulp inspiration.




> Harley is only a few years younger than Ivy and the Joker


I kind of see a young Harley as a daughter of an affluent family who is a fangirl for criminals, probably runs a Tumblr with hot mugshots.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
They could make Harleen a friend of Selina's.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> IMHO, you have to remember GC had its fanbase, but it wasn't enough to sustain its readership for the long haul. Gotham is centering the show on a young Jim Gordon, before Bruce even thought of being the Bat.The previews lok great, and I can't wait to see this show!


Agreed!!!!!

----------


## Kid A

> How many shows are there about an ordinary police department trying to do their job in a city overrun with various super-villains with different powers and gimmicks, as well as a vigilante dressed as a bat?


A Gotham Central show was never going to depict supervillains with powers, though.  Gimmicks, sure, but that hardly makes it more unique than what's already being depicted in Luther, Hannibal, Fargo, etc.  And it wouldn't be easy to match the quality of those shows. 




> How many shows are there about an ordinary police department trying to do their job in a city overrun with crime?


Quite a few. 




> Batman, his allies and his villains would offer a newer dynamic, a third party to throw a spanner in the usual routine of cops vs. criminals. Here, they've effectively missed their one chance to separate Gotham from the rest by showing it back when it was just another city with a crime problem. Now there's practically nothing that differentiates Gotham from, say, CSI, Law & Order, or any of the myriad of generic cop shows currently on the network.


Except the show creators have specifically pointed out that they're making the show about the transition between Gotham being a regular city and a city infested with super-villains.  Not to mention, they've already explicitly shown how they've filmed New York City, and then used visual effects to create the surreal gothic atmosphere that is Gotham.  Actually, I shouldn't have to explain any of this since the show has yet to even come out before declaring it a "generic cop show." 




> Also, there's nothing to show that they're doing a The Wire-esque approach to Gotham City. It just seems like a generic cop show with a special focus on James Gordon and his relationships with his friends, family, allies and enemies.


The trailers show otherwise.

----------


## Batmil

I think it's a very interesting concept. Gotham, in the end, is so much more than Batman & the family. There are regular people trying to make sense of it all. I do hope they focus on the psychological side of it all though, the series would be a success to me if they decide to go in depth on the villains. I can't wait!

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

As good as the trailer looks, I still think it might have been a better idea to do Gotham Central. It wouldn't even require that much change. The overarching story would still be the same, the big difference would be a leap forward after the murder. So that Gordon is returning to a case he didn't solve as the Police deals with a new vigilante changing things. You can still have Bullock as the older mentor, and an Edward Nygma within the force, a Cobblepot climbing ranks, a small time Selina Kyle, etc. It would be a lot more interesting as the vigilante starts calling himself Batman, and the police needs to deal with crap like an apprehended Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow or Clayface.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I hope they spend a good chunk of time on Edward's character development.

----------


## CapeandCowl

Been seeingads on FOX TV this week and I am starting to get interested in seeing where this series goes. Looking forward to Poison Ivy's story as well as the Penguin as I feel both get underated compared to the bigger fish like Joker or Catwoman in the films and TV series.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Been seeingads on FOX TV this week and I am starting to get interested in seeing where this series goes. Looking forward to Poison Ivy's story as well as the Penguin as I feel both get underated compared to the bigger fish like Joker or Catwoman in the films and TV series.


I agree. It will be refreshing to focus on some other villains for a change.

----------


## CapeandCowl

Oh definitely friend. I think the Joker has been done to death, so I hope Gotham brings in the rest of the rogues gallery and gives us some decent characterisation.

----------


## Nick Miller

I guess you guys may know, but i just found out Montoya and Allen feature prominently. YES

----------


## CapeandCowl

Sounds promising. What about Harvey Bullock? Seriously though, I am looking forward to this as I feel something has been missing in my Bat appreciation of late.
I can only watch the films so many times and I dont even like all of them but I have given even the least favorite on my list two viewings. This could be a nice companion piece to Batman Begins, what with the flashback to little Bruce and him being in the new series or at least that is what some of the commercial ads are implying.

----------


## Nick Miller

Its not a flashback, capeandcowl. Thats where the series starts, at the Wayne Murders

----------


## CapeandCowl

> Its not a flashback, capeandcowl. Thats where the series starts, at the Wayne Murders


Yes, I know friend, I meant the scenes of him in the ads reminded me of the flashbacks in Batman Begins.
What are you most looking forward to in the new series?

----------


## Nick Miller

> Yes, I know friend, I meant the scenes of him in the ads reminded me of the flashbacks in Batman Begins.
> What are you most looking forward to in the new series?


Everything, really. This is like a dream come true. Finally, a live action Batman series.

I wonder how Bruce and Selina will interact. It looks like she saw the murders. As shown on the Fox preview show tonight.

Really looking forward to all the little easter eggs that i am sure will pop up.

----------


## Güicho

> I guess you guys may know, but i just found out Montoya and Allen feature prominently. YES


Their late intro in the promos  is  what finally drew my attention to the show.
Although From the preview it's definitely a different take on the characters, they seem to be more antagonistic, and not working with Gordon. And now  they are the vets while Gordon is the rookie, and in a different unit - "Major Crimes Unit. 
Not sure how sympathetic or likable they will be.
They could end up as allies, and regulars. Or they may be there just to get killed. Just character stepping stones to show Gordon's is the right direction...LOL, we will see.


 What _I'd_ love to see if it's successful, is Montoya and Allen adopting their own new hero id's and spun off into their own or crossed over into Constantine.

----------


## PretenderNX01

I wouldn't think they'd kill off Montoya since she isn't dead in any comics but Allen has in the past been The Spectre but I doubt they'd do that in Gotham (unless they plan to kill him in Gotham and resurrect him in Constantine)

Netflix has already purchased the right to have this season of Gotham available to it's subscribers in 2015 after it's broadcast
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/09/02/netflix-gotham-fox/

Nice influx of cash and maybe another sign they are committed to getting it out to people.

----------


## heyevaxx

This is a very mild spoiler. I'm super thrilled about episode 2, my #1 character is in the spotlight very quickly!

Gotham Spoilers: Title & Description For Episode 2
*spoilers:*
_FOX has released an official description for the second episode of Gotham, which airs on September 29 and is called "Selina Kyle."

GORDON AND BULLOCK INVESTIGATE A CHILD TRAFFICKING RING ON AN ALL-NEW "GOTHAM" MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, ON FOX

Detectives Gordon and Bullock investigate a child trafficking ring preying on Gotham's street kids, including Selina Kyle (Camren Bicondova). Meanwhile, Penguin (Robin Lord Taylor) resurfaces in the countryside and begins to make his way back to GOTHAM, leaving victims in his wake in the all-new "Selina Kyle" episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, Sept. 29 (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-102) (TV-14 D, L, V)_
*end of spoilers*_
Cast: Ben McKenzie as Detective James Gordon, Donal Logue as Harvey Bullock, Jada Pinkett Smith as Fish Mooney, Sean Pertwee as Alfred, Robin Lord Taylor as Oswald Cobblepot/The Penguin, Erin Richards as Barbara Kean, David Mazouz as Bruce Wayne, Camren Bicondova as Selina Kyle/the future Catwoman, Zabryna Guevara as Captain Sarah Essen, Cory Michael Smith as Edward Nygma/the future Riddler, Victoria Cartagena as Renee Montoya, Andrew Stewart Jones as Crispus Allen, John Doman as Carmine Falcone

Guest Cast: Carol Kane as Gertrud Kapelput, Frank Whaley as Doug, Lili Taylor as Patti, Richard Kind as Mayor Aubrey James, Drew Powell as Butch Gilzean, Kyle Massey as Macky
_

----------


## EdwardNigma

I am so psyched for the show. Only 10 days!!

----------


## The Whovian

> I am so psyched for the show. Only 10 days!!


Same here. Just watched Gotham - the Legend Reborn last night. This is going to be amazing!

----------


## Don C

Just a heads up for people interested in the _Gotham Central_ comic. Today (September 13) only, Amazon's deal of the day is a digital copy of the recent Volume 1 hardcover for $2.99US.

http://www.amazon.com/Gotham-Central...gotham+central

----------


## PretenderNX01

10632393_1464434650504315_805237831_n.jpg



> Nothing Commissioner Gordon can't handle! Benjamin McKenzie made a trip to the hospital (and on his 36th birthday!) after he suffered an injury while taping his TV series Gotham in NYC on Friday, Sept. 12.
> 
> "Happy Birthday to me. Fight sequence gone awry. Don't ram your head into concrete pillars kids. #gotham," the actor captioned an Instagram picture of himself with a bandage on his forehead. "Holy concrete wall, Batman! #gotham," he added.


http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-...#ixzz3DHRY9TQZ 

Looks like it was quite the gash there. The bandage photo is apparently a mirror feature pic as the cut is above his right eye.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Same here. Just watched Gotham - the Legend Reborn last night. This is going to be amazing!


I just did too! LOL

----------


## daBronzeBomma

If GOTHAM's 1st episode and season are good enough, they can totally go the SMALLVILLE route and take us through every single step-by-agonizing-step from Bruce Wayne orphan all the way to Batman's 1st official mission.  Seriously, I don't need no stinkin' time jump.  I can wait 10 seasons for a 23-year-old Caped Crusader's debut if the show is good enough.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> If GOTHAM's 1st episode and season are good enough, they can totally go the SMALLVILLE route and take us through every single step-by-agonizing-step from Bruce Wayne orphan all the way to Batman's 1st official mission.  Seriously, I don't need no stinkin' time jump.  I can wait 10 seasons for a 23-year-old Caped Crusader's debut if the show is good enough.


I really hope so.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Just two more days!

----------


## daBronzeBomma

I'm getting my DVR ready.

A awkward thought occurs: If Bruce is already 12 years old at the start of season 1, and if the show proves to have legs, would seasons 3,4,5,6 of GOTHAM feature Bruce Wayne as a full-time high school student?

If so, I hope he dons a makeshift Robin outfit for his training and surveillance missions.

----------


## The Whovian

> I'm getting my DVR ready.
> 
> A awkward thought occurs: If Bruce is already 12 years old at the start of season 1, and if the show proves to have legs, would seasons 3,4,5,6 of GOTHAM feature Bruce Wayne as a full-time high school student?
> 
> If so, I hope he dons a makeshift Robin outfit for his training and surveillance missions.


I don't think this show is going to feature Bruce much, if at all. It's more about Gordon, Bullock, The GCPD and the villains.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> I don't think this show is going to feature Bruce much, if at all. It's more about Gordon, Bullock, The GCPD and the villains.


I beg to differ.  

Presuming this show doesn't get cancelled early due to ratings or the whims of Fox execs, I think young Bruce's role will slowly move closer to center.  He's the true draw of the show.  Without Bruce, GOTHAM becomes just another cop show that almost no one cares about.

----------


## Kid A

> I beg to differ.  
> 
> Presuming this show doesn't get cancelled early due to ratings or the whims of Fox execs, I think young Bruce's role will slowly move closer to center.  He's the true draw of the show.  Without Bruce, GOTHAM becomes just another cop show that almost no one cares about.


Nah, Gotham City is a draw in of itself.

----------


## Punisher007

I think that if the show goes long enough, then at some point Bruce will leave to go on his "let's travel around the world training to be a badass" journey.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I think that if the show goes long enough, then at some point Bruce will leave to go on his "let's travel around the world training to be a badass" journey.


I picture this happening as well.

----------


## Beantownbrown

If it does happen I hope it becomes a  spin-off.

----------


## The Whovian

> I beg to differ.  
> 
> Presuming this show doesn't get cancelled early due to ratings or the whims of Fox execs, I think young Bruce's role will slowly move closer to center.  He's the true draw of the show.  Without Bruce, GOTHAM becomes just another cop show that almost no one cares about.


I meant that the show's focus will be on the other characters more than Bruce. That's the whole idea of this show--to showcase the city of Gotham and it's inhabitants _before_ Bruce became Batman.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

The show's focus will be on all the characters, INCLUDING Bruce.  

And two things come to mind.  One, Premises on TV shows evolve all the time.  SMALLVILLE was initially supposed to be all about Clark's high school years, but it eventually went way beyond that.

Two, prequel shows (like SMALLVILLE and GOTHAM) are more apt to make major changes from the source material than other shows.  Superman fans complained  All.  The.  Time. about major deviations from the Superman canon.

Without having seen the pilot yet, I've seen/heard of one minor change and one major change.

Gordon doesn't have his trademark eyeglasses or moustache.  That's really nothing, as those can come later as he ages.

Gordon and Bullock are the detectives assigned to solve the Waynes' murder case.  That's a HUGE something, a major deviation from canon.  And it won't be the last.

If FOX can change that, they can also change how Bruce goes about his training.  Particularly if the kid playing Bruce winds up doing really well and becomes an audience draw, there's no way FOX lets the kid off the show.  In fact, there's a real good chance they'll change the long-term story so that Bruce trains in Gotham (his teachers are either brought to Gotham or they were there already), or that we follow him if it's not in Gotham (a la Daenerys Targarean's story separated from Westeros on GAME OF THRONES).

I don't see Bruce Wayne ever NOT being on this show.  And I doubt FOX does either.

----------


## The Whovian

> The show's focus will be on all the characters, INCLUDING Bruce.  
> 
> And two things come to mind.  One, Premises on TV shows evolve all the time.  SMALLVILLE was initially supposed to be all about Clark's high school years, but it eventually went way beyond that.
> 
> Two, prequel shows (like SMALLVILLE and GOTHAM) are more apt to make major changes from the source material than other shows.  Superman fans complained  All.  The.  Time. about major deviations from the Superman canon.
> 
> Without having seen the pilot yet, I've seen/heard of one minor change and one major change.
> 
> Gordon doesn't have his trademark eyeglasses or moustache.  That's really nothing, as those can come later as he ages.
> ...


Again, you're not really reading what I'm saying. I never said they would NOT keep showing Bruce, just that the focus is going to be more on the other characters of Gotham.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> If FOX can change that, they can also change how Bruce goes about his training. Particularly if the kid playing Bruce winds up doing really well and becomes an audience draw, there's no way FOX lets the kid off the show. In fact, there's a real good chance they'll change the long-term story so that Bruce trains in Gotham (his teachers are either brought to Gotham or they were there already), or that we follow him if it's not in Gotham (a la Daenerys Targarean's story separated from Westeros on GAME OF THRONES).


In the NEW 52, there are clear evidences of Bruce being partially trained in Gotham before leaving the city for futher training at the age of 18. Thats right. In the new continuity Bruce never left Gotham until the age of 18. Lest face it, Bruce leaving Gotham at the age of 11 in the pre NEW 52 was ridiculous. One thing the NEW 52 did right I guess. Anyway. According to New 52 Batman the Dark Knight issue 0, we saw a 18 years old Bruce Wayne providing an ass wooping to some douchebags in a bar without breaking a sweat as well participating in a boxing tournament in Gotham. You can say the show is somehow in line with the new continuity regarding the possible time he will stay in Gotham.

----------


## PretenderNX01

Or we could wait and see how the pilot goes and how the season goes before speculating what Bruce may or may not do 5 years from now  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> In the NEW 52, there are clear evidences of Bruce being partially trained in Gotham before leaving the city for futher training at the age of 18. Thats right. In the new continuity Bruce never left Gotham until the age of 18. Lest face it, *Bruce leaving Gotham at the age of 11 in the pre NEW 52 was ridiculous.* One thing the NEW 52 did right I guess. Anyway. According to New 52 Batman the Dark Knight issue 0, we saw a 18 years old Bruce Wayne providing an ass wooping to some douchebags in a bar without breaking a sweat as well participating in a boxing tournament in Gotham. You can say the show is somehow in line with the new continuity regarding the possible time he will stay in Gotham.


Agree 100% with the bolded part.

The rest is welcome news to me.  

Bring on 8:00 PM EST tonight!

----------


## Nite-Wing

I remember Bruce solving his first case when he was 18 in that zero issue of the dark knight iirc. You can definitely play with Bruce being a vigilante without showing Batman or even having him undergo training.
hopefully the pilot is good

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Anyone know how long this season is for, episode wise?

----------


## Kid A

This season will run 16 episodes.

----------


## The Whovian

> Anyone know how long this season is for, episode wise?


16. Not bad for a first season

----------


## Kid A

I like that it's not some 20+ episodes; hoping for something really tightly plotted and with minimal to no filler.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Watching it live ... first commercial break.

This show is gorgeously shot.  Movie quality.

The kid has The Look.

----------


## WillieMorgan

Ah you're so lucky. We don't get it over here until sometime in October.

Hope you're enjoying it. Let us know what you think...

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Whoa!  The reveal with Renee Montoya and Barbara Kean ... is that from the comics or is that new for the show?

----------


## InformationGeek

So that was the first episode... I liked it!  I missed the opening due to being out, but I liked what I saw and I'm looking forward to the next episode... since the show is on Fox, how long do you think it'll take until they screw it over with changing the schedule and then cancelling it?  They always cancel the good stuff and leave the crap around, continuing to stink up the place.

----------


## tabo61

I like this version where Selina Kyle was a witness to the Wayne murders.

----------


## The Overlord

I thought the first episode was just okay. Nothing terrible about it, but the dialogue seemed weak in places and I didn't like that speed up editing when Gordon was chasing that perp.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I liked it as well and I'm looking forward to the next episode.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

First impressions ...

The kid playing Bruce Wayne knocked it out of the park.  I have no trouble believing that traumatized child would become the Dark Knight.

The guy playing Gordon did a solid job ... kinda want the glasses and the 'stache ASAP, tho.  He looks like he can shoulder the load of the show.

The guy playing Bullock is a revelation.  Not evil, not good, just enough honor to like him, just enough dirt to mistrust him.  Real good job there.

Jada was just chewing scenery, but then again, she is the biggest star on here by far.

The guy playing Cobblepot was outstanding.  He's more than halfway to Penguin.  And a violent sociopath already.

The guy playing Falcone radiated power in his brief scene.

The guy playing Alfred is the most hardass version of the butler yet.

The kid playing Selina Kyle didn't say much ... at all.

The cinematography was top-notch and looked way better than its network tv budget should have.

Looking forward to Episode 2.

----------


## Dabrikishaw

I'll give it a 7. I liked it, but I don't think it was as good as hyped. Not liking the fact that Seth Bullock is crooked, but otherwise, he's still the same dick I come to know and admire. Maybe I'll get over it by episode 3.

I'll watch the whole season, then decide if I will comeback for the second one. Until next week, I have season 2 of Sleepy Hollow and The Blacklist to watch.

----------


## The Whovian

My thoughts on the first ep:

-Selina being a witness to Bruce's parent's deaths was actually a nice retcon to his origin that could make for some potentially cool stories down the road. And the goggles was a nice touch (how old is she supposed to be in this show?)
-Bruce's attention to detail is apparent even at a young age
-The whole scene in the alley was well done. Gordon's talk with Bruce to Alfred showing up and Bruce running into his arms
-Gordon and Bullock working together are going to be amazing
-Appearances by Nigma, Montoya, Allen and Ivy---cool!
-Jada was great. I hope we get to see her and Falcone tangle
-Oswald was having a little too much fun going to town on that boy with the bat. He's the perfect actor to play Penquin
-Anyone catch Bullock's "meet me at 4th and Grundy". Nice tip of the hat to Solomon
-Why did Bullock think that Gordon and him would lose their jobs? It was a clean shooting
-Bullock-"That's right, there are rules!" lol!
-The conversation between Bruce and Gordon at the end was nice.

I have to say this episode exceeded my expectations and if the whole season is as good as this, it's going to be really fun to watch.

----------


## The Whovian

> I like this version where Selina Kyle was a witness to the Wayne murders.


I liked that as well

----------


## The Whovian

> First impressions ...
> 
> The kid playing Bruce Wayne knocked it out of the park.  I have no trouble believing that traumatized child would become the Dark Knight.
> 
> The guy playing Gordon did a solid job ... kinda want the glasses and the 'stache ASAP, tho.  He looks like he can shoulder the load of the show.
> 
> The guy playing Bullock is a revelation.  Not evil, not good, just enough honor to like him, just enough dirt to mistrust him.  Real good job there.
> 
> Jada was just chewing scenery, but then again, she is the biggest star on here by far.
> ...


Agree with everything you said

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

> Whoa!  The reveal with Renee Montoya and Barbara Kean ... is that from the comics or is that new for the show?


The show completely, iirc Renee Montoya didn't show up in the comics until Gordon was an old man and the character that we all know and love and Batman had been fighting crime for years...and it's odd that Gordon would name his daughter Barbara unless the one that we see here dies a hero or something of that nature. I would say that in Gotham both Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are probably about 13 or so. Iirc the guy that plays Alfred is the son of one of the guys that played The Doctor on Doctor Who.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

I didn't have much hope for this show given that prequels generally don't appeal to me. This was actually a pleasant surprise though, not great but a solid start. The deaths of Thomas and Martha Wayne have always had an emotional impact on me and I feel FOX handled the more touching scenes well here. They also did a good job of making James Gordon pretty bad-ass in his first scene. Donal Logue is quite good as Harvey Bullock and Jada Pinkett Smith gives a pretty good performance as well. Some of the easter eggs felt heavy handed but I feel like I need to rewatch it just to catch all of them.

----------


## Kid A

Hard to separate Gotham from NYC; I've been to and recognize so many of the places here.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> The show completely, iirc Renee Montoya didn't show up in the comics until Gordon was an old man and the character that we all know and love and Batman had been fighting crime for years...and it's odd that Gordon would name his daughter Barbara unless the one that we see here dies a hero or something of that nature. I would say that in Gotham both Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are probably about 13 or so. Iirc *the guy that plays Alfred is the son of one of the guys that played The Doctor on Doctor Who*.


He is the son of Jon Pertwee, the third Doctor.


I actually liked the show more than I thought I might.  I look forward to watching it next week...that's a plus, most shows dont make it that far for me.

----------


## Flash Gordon

NYC is no where near as rough as Gotham, she's been cleaned up a lot (most crime being pushed into the corners no one sees, but alas). I'd argue Manhattan is super safe- it's not the NYC I used to know.

If anyone has ever been to Bridgeport, CT- that on a larger scale is Gotham. Just the shitty damn place- that you have to go through on the metro. Every time I go through there (which isn't much)- I stop and and say hello to Batsy.

----------


## C_Miller

Yep. He's played by Sean Pertwee, Son of Jon Pertwee the Third Doctor. Looks just like him too.

But anyways, I liked this a lot. It wasn't perfect by any means, but I really did like it. The writing was spotty in places, which was my biggest impression. A lot of the dialog just didn't feel natural as if they were talking in movie quotes. "There will be light" and "Keep swimming" rang a bit hollow. But it was saved by the acting. Ben McKenzie is a commanding lead who definitely feels like Post-Crisis Jim Gordon, despite being younger than we ever saw him. Donal Logue was probably the best thing about the show so far and I look forward to seeing how his character arc progresses. And the kid they got to play Bruce was brilliant. As someone who typically dislikes child actors, between this kid and the kids from Game of Thrones, I might be a convert.

But yeah, I'm still waiting on Constantine, but so far, of the two this was my least favorite pilot for DC shows this season. But that's really awesome seeing as I really enjoyed this and will be tuning in next week.

----------


## Kid A

Yeah stuff like the "you're a cynic" line was kind of hollow.  I mean no shit Bullock is a cynic.  I was expecting something clever and insightful.  Since these shows have staff writers, hopefully it's better in other episodes.

Also, even if Mario was innocent, he still tried to kill Gordon.  The legal logic here is flimsy.

----------


## inisideguy

Thought the show was good. Cant imagine it not being a hit. There is just so much to work with here they can tell good stories forever.

----------


## JaggedFel

> Thought the show was good. Cant imagine it not being a hit. There is just so much to work with here they can tell good stories forever.


Not Really unless Bruce actually becomes Batman.

----------


## inisideguy

> Not Really unless Bruce actually becomes Batman.



 Huh? I just cant take that comment seriously. You have batman in a movie next year. And again in a year after that. This is pre batman and its cool. They are doing something different. Something fanboys claim they want but dont really want.

----------


## LightningBug

I think this show could go either way. The first episode was alright. Generally well acted, less so well written. The dialogue in particular was a little stiff. I thought the concept of Gordon asking a small boy's permission to root out corruption in the GCPD was not only far fetched, but pretty stupid. I really liked Penguin. I really liked Alfred. My main worry going forward is that much like most of this episode, the show is going to be basically just another cop/crime drama except that it will name drop a character from Batman every few minutes. Did this episode really need Poison Ivy and Riddler? No, they were squeezed in and it felt like pandering. So what is going to separate this show from the riffraff of cop/crime shows out there going forward? If they can answer that question, it might be a really good show.

----------


## gsnake007

solid premiere show is off to a good start bring on the rest of the episodes

----------


## Kid A

> So what is going to separate this show from the riffraff of cop/crime shows out there going forward? If they can answer that question, it might be a really good show.


Yeah, the problem I see here is that this episode gave off a Batman Begins/Year One vibe, with the Falcones and GCPD corruption, except here we're several years off from having Batman come in and scare them shitless.  So I don't know what direction would work here.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

MacKenzie and Logue were rock solid as Gordon and Bullock. It took some time, but they were in sync by the end of the episode. John Doman as Falcone was fantastic in the scene he was in. Everything else felt rushed, clumsily executed, and pandering. All of which are flaws commonly associated with pilot episodes. So I think this show might have the legs to really develop into something.

----------


## greenbats

> I like this version where Selina Kyle was a witness to the Wayne murders.





> I liked that as well


This was one of my favorite things in the episode as well. I really liked it way more than I thought I would. 
The writing was fantastic and the story line is great. I like seeing things I recognize from the comics but at the same time seeing new things as well.

My two favorite characters so far Penguin and Alfred. 
Bravo to the kid playing Bruce Wayne, he nailed it, and shows a version of the child Bruce I've always wanted to see, but have only ever seen in the comics, never anywhere else.

However does anyone else think they might have already tried hinting at the joker? I'm just hoping my idiocy imagination got away with me at that moment, and the kid telling the jokes was just there and we won't ever see him again.

----------


## greenbats

oh and when are we going to start seeing action figures ha ha

----------


## RobinFan4880

Just finished watching the first episode of Gotham. Disappointed would probably be the best word to describe how I feel. I honestly do not care for the actors they got to play Gordon and Bullock. Sure they are good actors in their own right but they just do not feel like the characters to me. I will watch a few more episodes but I do not have high hopes for this show.

----------


## josai21

I liked it. It was pretty fast paced, but I think it was better than Arrow's pilot. That said, I have more faith in the team/producer's behind Arrow than I do at Fox. We shall see.

Also, the kid playing Bruce was freaking fantastic. He nailed it. I would honestly hope this show goes for a while and should it be canceled or something, get the kid to star in a Batman series. He really has "The Look" or "Batglare." Whatever you wanna call it.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

Gotta be honest...there is no one who wanted to love this more than me. But...I found it too stylized and strangely flippant. I think it would have worked much better as a grittier AMC or HBO type show. It was too network for my tastes. And that's strange because I really do like Arrow, but I thought this could have been more serious. I almost felt like it should be animated. McKenzie and Logue were fine, as was most of the acting, but it lacked a certain gravitas. It wasn't terrible and should get decent ratings, but to me there wasn't enough there

----------


## Ginkasa

I wasn't a fan.  They really played too many cards too quickly.  They should have held back on many of the comic characters and supervillains.  It felt really ham fisted and stretched my suspension of disbelief that so many character important to the later Bat mythos would all be involved so early in the game.  They would have been much better served focusing on original plots and characters and using comic characters as big reveals or special moments.  I don't really know where they can take the series if they throw everything in the pilot.  It also seems like they'll try too hard to make it "Batman" without having Batman.  Basically the same issues that Smallville faced in its latter half.

Overall, I think if they wanted to have the Batman influence so prominent they should have just made a Gotham Central show.

----------


## nepenthes

> Gotta be honest...there is no one who wanted to love this more than me. But...I found it too stylized and strangely flippant. I think it would have worked much better as a grittier AMC or HBO type show. It was too network for my tastes. And that's strange because I really do like Arrow, but I thought this could have been more serious. I almost felt like it should be animated. McKenzie and Logue were fine, as was most of the acting, but it lacked a certain gravitas. It wasn't terrible and should get decent ratings, but to me there wasn't enough there


Haven't seen the first Ep yet however on this point...yeah, I would've loved to see a more sophisticated and perhaps even darker treatment, but we also have to keep in mind that WB can't exclude the 8-15 bracket. Younger families need to be able to sit a down and watch together - and sure for many kids what we have now might still be a bit much, however that's only for some, not all, and up to parent discretion. But as soon as you go all _Wire_ or even without the violence ie. _House of Cards_, families are cut completely. It needs to be a middeground network cop procedural i.e Law & Order, NCIS that won't go over a kids head.

----------


## Cryptid

I went into this show with complete contempt for the premise, but the first episode mostly worked for me. The foreshadowing and easter eggs were kind of obnoxious, in that the future villains receive attention far in excess of their importance to the present plot. There is a real risk that this approach to a sequel, with all kinds of origin stories intertwining, will use the pleasure of recognition to cover for an overload of dramatic coincidence and too-tidy connections. Still, Gordon and especially Bullock carried the episode and made the foreground action interesting enough that the nudge-nudge fan service didn't completely take over. And they did a good job of linking the Wayne murder to organized crime and police corruption, so that the origin stuff and the police drama dovetailed without strain.

The first episode shows sharp enough execution to convince me that this show will be worth following for at least a few episodes, just not good enough to make me think that the talent on display can hold this premise together indefinitely.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Haven't seen the first Ep yet however on this point...yeah, I would've loved to see a more sophisticated and perhaps even darker treatment, but we also have to keep in mind that WB can't exclude the 8-15 bracket. Younger families need to be able to sit a down and watch together - and sure for many kids what we have now might still be a bit much, however that's only for some, not all, and up to parent discretion. But as soon as you go all _Wire_ or even without the violence ie. _House of Cards_, families are cut completely. It needs to be a middeground network cop procedural i.e Law & Order, NCIS that won't go over a kids head.


The show's parental guidelines stipulate 14 year olds. Commonsensemedia.org believes this rating is too low and you should, "PAUSE: Know your child; some content may not be right for some kids." They believe the show is better suited to 16+. 

Having watched the episode, I have to agree. This is too violent for kids, especially 8 year olds.

----------


## Tupiaz

Overall happy but there is a few things here and there. 

Ivy's parents and the connection to the Waynes murder. 
The lack of a reference to Zorro.  Who by the way says totally lame? I think kind of lame is a more used phrase. 
Bullock being too crooked.
Barbera and Jim living in a way too expensive apartment, Fair enough she is an artist it still is an expensive penthouse apartment and I don't see a cop living there, An apartment like the one Brad Pitt's character moved into in se7en  or the one Jim lives in, in Year one seems a better fit.
Catwoman seeing the murder of the Waynes i don't know how I feel about. It seems like it tries to connect too much to the murder. It depends on how it is used in later episodes. 
Hopefully we will see more than one possible origins for the Joker. 

Is the poster outside Fish Moony's place before the first visit a poster of Harvey Dent? I can seem to read the entire poster only "He gots your Back".




> The guy playing Bullock is a revelation.  Not evil, not good, just enough honor to like him, just enough dirt to mistrust him.  Real good job there.


Sorry, but Bullock has no honour and is in my opinion too crooked in this version. He doesn't care whatever they catch the right killer and he doesn't want to work on the case. He wants to have Oswald killed so they can keep having a good relationship with Falcone. He is as dirty as a dirty cop is. They could have done this a lot more subtile. Making in it up to the viewer to decide how dirty Harvey is suppose to be viewed. 




> I'll give it a 7. I liked it, but I don't think it was as good as hyped. Not liking the fact that Seth Bullock is crooked, but otherwise, he's still the same dick I come to know and admire. Maybe I'll get over it by episode 3.
> 
> I'll watch the whole season, then decide if I will comeback for the second one. Until next week, I have season 2 of Sleepy Hollow and The Blacklist to watch.


Yeah, I didn't like that part either.

----------


## RobinFan4880

I agree, Harvey is way too crooked in this. I expect this out of some random cop Jim is partnered with, not Bullock.

----------


## Kid A

Yeah he feels more like Nolan-verse Flass.

----------


## Tupiaz

> The show's parental guidelines stipulate 14 year olds. Commonsensemedia.org believes this rating is too low and you should, "PAUSE: Know your child; some content may not be right for some kids." They believe the show is better suited to 16+. 
> 
> Having watched the episode, I have to agree. This is too violent for kids, especially 8 year olds.


I think 13-14 is a fine age. Again it depends on the kids. Parents should just take an interest in what the kids are watching. However most 13-14 kids will probably watch, read and play whatever they like and hard for the parents to do anything against unless you locked them in a cave.




> Yeah he feels more like Nolan-verse Flass.


Flass is also appearing in Year One. They should just have used him as Jim's Partner would have worked perfectly well. Bullock could have been around as a character in a moral grey area. Harvey also seemed to have been closer to Bruce age and in the show he seems (at least looks older) than Jim which is kind of weird. Also he needs to eat more donuts.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> I think 13-14 is a fine age. Again it depends on the kids. Parents should just take an interest in what the kids are watching. However most 13-14 kids will probably watch. read and play whatever they like and hard for the parents to do anything against unless you locked them in a cave.


Most of it was fine for a gritty cop drama but the senseless beating of a helpless man with a baseball bat was a bit excessive. I think most 14 years olds would be safe (they are either enrolled in or soon to be in High School after all), although 16 seems more like the "no issues" age for this show. I do think younger kids, especially once you get down to the elementary school age should be shewed away from the show.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Most of it was fine for a gritty cop drama but the senseless beating of a helpless man with a baseball bat was a bit excessive. I think most 14 years olds would be safe (they are either enrolled in or soon to be in High School after all), although 16 seems more like the "no issues" age for this show. I do think younger kids, especially once you get down to the elementary school age should be shewed away from the show.


Yes that was also the scene I thought was worst. However it is not that graphic. The Penguin is pretty sadistic in this show. Killing a random person because he wants to eat a sandwich (which doesn't make that much sense, he hasn't been without food for that long). That he wasn't killed before and that is now suddenly Gordon's job doesn't make sense either. Fish Moony have cut him snitching and had order Jim death. Why keep him alive for Gordon to kill him. Doesn't make that much sense.

----------


## JaggedFel

Yeah Harvey is super corrupt although I probably would have offed Cobblepot in that situation its not like he is a civilian. 
Also he makes no sense as any test because one Fish probably would have wanted to do it herself and 2 Gordon besides being a bleeding heart has no reason not to do it.
And yeah that penthouse is ridiculous although if his Dad was a DA who switched to Private Practice at some point I could buy it.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Yes that was also the scene I thought was worst. However it is not that graphic. The Penguin is pretty sadistic in this show. Killing a random person because he wants to eat a sandwich (which doesn't make that much sense, he hasn't been without food for that long). That he wasn't killed before and that is now suddenly Gordon's job doesn't make sense either. Fish Moony have cut him snitching and had order Jim death. Why keep him alive for Gordon to kill him. Doesn't make that much sense.


Cobblepot was handed to Gordon, so Gordon would have to compromise his ethics and thus join everyone else in Morally-Bankrupt-Ville. Once you take that first step down that road, you wind up becoming, essentially, Harvey. A collaborator who is more concerned about his own well being and that of the status quo than enacting real, meaningful change. 

I agree though, why did Fish leave Cobblepot alive? She has proven herself ruthless in the past and their altercation happened well before Falcone got involved. Seems to me it would be a simple issue of street justice. Whack him and dump the body. 

I thought the Penguin was going to murder the fisherman for his clothing (because, you know, it was cold out and Cobblepot's clothing was soaked). Instead, he goes for the guy's half-eaten sandwich? I suppose he could have been locked up since the night prior but... Even still, why not just threaten the guy with the knife and take the sandwich? Why jump straight to murder?

----------


## Tupiaz

> Yeah Harvey is super corrupt although I probably would have offed Cobblepot in that situation its not like he is a civilian. 
> Also he makes no sense as any test because one Fish probably would have wanted to do it herself and 2 Gordon besides being a bleeding heart has no reason not to do it.
> And yeah that penthouse is ridiculous although if his Dad was a DA who switched to Private Practice at some point I could buy it.


That is of course true. However Gordon as always been an average cop with an above average moral code particularly in Gotham. It just disconnect him for that setting. 




> Cobblepot was handed to Gordon, so Gordon would have to compromise his ethics and thus join everyone else in Morally-Bankrupt-Ville. Once you take that first step down that road, you wind up becoming, essentially, Harvey. A collaborator who is more concerned about his own well being and that of the status quo than enacting real, meaningful change. 
> 
> I agree though, why did Fish leave Cobblepot alive? She has proven herself ruthless in the past and their altercation happened well before Falcone got involved. Seems to me it would be a simple issue of street justice. Whack him and dump the body. 
> 
> I thought the Penguin was going to murder the fisherman for his clothing (because, you know, it was cold out and Cobblepot's clothing was soaked). Instead, he goes for the guy's half-eaten sandwich? I suppose he could have been locked up since the night prior but... Even still, why not just threaten the guy with the knife and take the sandwich? Why jump straight to murder?


Oh, I know why Gordon got the test. Cobblepot would just have been death at the time if you ask me. The clothes could make sense. First I thought he would kill him because Cobblepot was going to be spotted (it is pretty obvious that he will be killed the first time you see him) and that isn't to smart when you are supposed to be death however the fisherman clearly don't see him and just go back to fishing.

----------


## Stormcrow

I didn't love it, it kind of felt like the plot was all over the place. But it's the pilot, the show still has the potential to become something better. 

Ben McKenzie works as the lead, and Daniel Logue was pretty good too. He might have come off a little too corrupt, but it might be interesting to see him come back from that. Bruce and Alfred's casting was flawless, and Robin Lord Taylor's Penguin was a delight.

I liked Jada Pinkett Smith's character, but calling her "Fish" is just weird...

And I gotta say I absolutely hated the actors for Montoya and Allen. If the goal was to make them the unlikeable antagonists, they certainly succeeded. It's just a shame to see those characters wasted.

I just had an issue with the sets as well. The cells within Gotham Central and Gordon's penthouse with the clock were ridiculous and completely out of place.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I didn't love it, it kind of felt like the plot was all over the place. But it's the pilot, the show still has the potential to become something better. 
> 
> Ben McKenzie works as the lead, and Daniel Logue was pretty good too. He might have come off a little too corrupt, but it might be interesting to see him come back from that. Bruce and Alfred's casting was flawless, and Robin Lord Taylor's Penguin was a delight.
> 
> I liked Jada Pinkett Smith's character, but calling her "Fish" is just weird...
> 
> And I gotta say I absolutely hated the actors for Montoya and Allen. If the goal was to make them the unlikeable antagonists, they certainly succeeded. It's just a shame to see those characters wasted.
> 
> I just had an issue with the sets as well. The cells within Gotham Central and Gordon's penthouse with the clock were ridiculous and completely out of place.


Since they believe both Gordon and Bullock to be corrupt it make sense that they are self-righteous. You can expect to have the relationship Montoya and Bullock has been seen having simply because Bullock is so corrupt as he is. Bullock is no longer the cop who wants to solve crimes but sometimes goes out of bounce to solve the case. He is now a dirty cop how don't care about his jobs or victims. Therefore Montoya approach to him is also different.

----------


## SXVA

It's only the pilot episode, give it half a season or so before writing it off. 

Look at how Arrow took some time to get going, a lot of TV series take time to develop and build, etc.

I like a lot of the casting choices and so i'm probably in it for the long haul based on that.

I completely agree with what's been said about Selina witnessing Bruce's parents murder, really like that... it sort of bonds them together and connects them forever.

I'm now putting that into my Batman reading as official, i don't care if it is or isn't.  :Big Grin: 

Kid playing Bruce is splendid, Selina's actress is purrrfect for her, McKenzie as Gordon is decent enough, Donal Logue's going to take the Bullock character to amazing places. looking forward to seeing all the various characters as it progresses.

I liked what i saw taking into consideration it's only the first episode, however... one criticism i totally agree with is that it was a bit "too much too soon", slowing things down a bit like introduction of characters [which having so many so fast trivialized their introductions somewhat] would've helped a lot.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> MacKenzie and Logue were rock solid as Gordon and Bullock. It took some time, but they were in sync by the end of the episode. John Doman as Falcone was fantastic in the scene he was in. Everything else felt rushed, clumsily executed, and pandering. All of which are flaws commonly associated with pilot episodes. So I think this show might have the legs to really develop into something.


I sucked. It felt to much like average CW garbage, and even a bit below that standard. They aimed to high to be on a Smallvillish budget. The Direction was painful, as some of the acting. The key scenes didn't hit the mark (the Falcone moment kinda did), they tend to imitate genre cliches rather than life, and it's too eager to please fanboys with name dropping.  In the Breaking Bad era, this is amateur hour. 

It might become kinda entertaining, but it's not really the BTAS or Dark Knight of TV dramas. If you think about that even the 66 show works better as a Batman landmark, considering the aim, the accomplishment and the context.   

Also, I have a beef with some of the characterizations. Nygma was goofy and uncool, the Penguin was a mere weasel rather than a loud, temperamental, strategy genius. In both cases they seem to have lost what makes them appealing. The actors seem capable, have them watch some Gorshin and Meredith and ground them with the same temperaments. Or just take cues from Arkham. Bullock is ok. It's not the Fred Flintstone characterization, but I think it's valid and close enough. The problem is that he shouldn't really be corrupt.

----------


## SXVA

Does anyone think that in the scene where Gordon is supposed to kill Penguin, that when it looked like Gordon was going to do it Harvey became disappointed, and that when Gordon acted like he killed him Harvey knew he didn't and that's why he said "atta boy" because deep down he wanted to believe that Gordon was different, and that he would do the right thing. It seemed to point to him saying atta boy because of the perception that Gordon did it but i don't know.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Not really seeing it for this show 
The pilot had some really bad acting/writing and there's a long way til batman even shows up

The show was way too on the nose with the references and the scenes with ill Bruce were bad.Not one interesting or compelling character outside of Alfred

The point of having Gordon tell bruce theyied about his parents murder was???

----------


## Noviere

I liked it for the most part, though I did feel that the Riddler and Poison Ivy cameos were a bit forced. Most of my issues could be summed up with "it's a pilot episode." I definitely see potential, and am looking forward to next episode.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Also, I have a beef with some of the characterizations. Nygma was goofy and uncool, the Penguin was a mere weasel rather than a loud, temperamental, strategy genius. In both cases they seem to have lost what makes them appealing. The actors seem capable, have them watch some Gorshin and Meredith and ground them with the same temperaments. Or just take cues from Arkham. Bullock is ok. It's not the Fred Flintstone characterization, but I think it's valid and close enough. The problem is that he shouldn't really be corrupt.


Even though Penguin's plan failed he at least had a plan. His role in the show is as far as I know is to make a beef between Falcone and Fish Moony. What do you think was ok about Bullock characterisation. It is probably the word I have the biggest problems with. Riddler has never really been "cool" he is physical weak and social awkward. He has what many would label as "geek". I like the Riddler as a character and he is intelligent but not cool. It is logical why Bullock would find him weird, he thinks Batman is a freak. The brief scene with Nigma doesn't changes this view of him. 




> Does anyone think that in the scene where Gordon is supposed to kill Penguin, that when it looked like Gordon was going to do it Harvey became disappointed, and that when Gordon acted like he killed him Harvey knew he didn't and that's why he said "atta boy" because deep down he wanted to believe that Gordon was different, and that he would do the right thing. It seemed to point to him saying atta boy because of the perception that Gordon did it but i don't know.


That could very well be the case.




> Not really seeing it for this show 
> The pilot had some really bad acting/writing and there's a long way til batman even shows up
> 
> The show was way too on the nose with the references and the scenes with ill Bruce were bad.Not one interesting or compelling character outside of Alfred
> 
> The point of having Gordon tell bruce theyied about his parents murder was???


To let him know and don't live on a lie.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's only the pilot episode, give it half a season or so before writing it off. 
> 
> Look at how Arrow took some time to get going, a lot of TV series take time to develop and build, etc.


Right. Besides, I think it's already significantly better than _Arrow_ was at its beginning. At any rate, I know what I will be watching Mondays at 8 PM from now on.

----------


## DurararaFTW

It had way too many cameos, hopefully they'll be able to tone it back after the first episode. Bruce, Alfred and Gordon were great. Falcone as well. Renee and Bullock seem too unlikable, Riddler and Penguin too obviously crazy. To me what makes Penguin for me is that he's biggest batvillain that belongs in Blackgate, not Arkham. Those 4 can still be toned back in later episodes. I'm less happy about Catwoman. She seems much more cartoony then the rest of the cast.

----------


## Joe Passmore

Regarding the Bullock scene at the end, I got the feeling that Bullock knew Gordon hadn't really killed Cobblepot and was in fact testing Gordon to see how straight of a cop he really is.  I think he wants to really clean up Gotham but can't do it on his own and has just gone with the flow and surviving up till now.  Now there's Gordon to really and honestly work with.

----------


## Red_11

> I thought the first episode was just okay. Nothing terrible about it, but the dialogue seemed weak in places and I didn't like that speed up editing when Gordon was chasing that perp.


Pretty much my thoughts as well.  I'd give it a B-.  It wasn't great, but it was good enough for me to keep watching.  Aside from the dialogue and some of the editing I felt like they tried to pack too much in too soon.  I don't think we needed to be introduced to so many characters in the first ep.  Also, Selina's physical presence was a bit too self consciously "cat-like."  We get it, she'll become Catwoman, trust the audience a little bit, you don't need to beat us over the head with it.

On the plus side I really liked Jada Pinkett Smith.  All of Fish Mooney's scenes were great.

All in all it's just the pilot.  They'll have plenty of opportunity for improvement.

----------


## themasething

Eh, I'll give it half a season. It'll either get really good or die completely. Personally I'm thinking the latter only due to a lot of loads being blown in the first episode and there are some changes to the Batman lore that really cause my OCD to kick in and create Fanboy rage.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't think we needed to be introduced to so many characters in the first ep.


I don't disagree with that. They should have been spaced out a little more.




> On the plus side I really liked Jada Pinkett Smith.  All of Fish Mooney's scenes were great.


Definitely. Sexy, intimidating, and commanding, Jada has never been better in a role, IMO. Fish is an excellent addition to the Batman mythos.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Eh, I'll give it half a season.


I can't see it doing any worse than _Arrow_, the latter featuring a character not remotely as popular as Batman/Bruce. Plus, FOX is seen by more people than is the case with the CW. I'll be shocked if it doesn't go at least three seasons.

----------


## MikeMC005

> Regarding the Bullock scene at the end, I got the feeling that Bullock knew Gordon hadn't really killed Cobblepot and was in fact testing Gordon to see how straight of a cop he really is.  I think he wants to really clean up Gotham but can't do it on his own and has just gone with the flow and surviving up till now.  Now there's Gordon to really and honestly work with.


I got this feeling too... He was too proud of Gordon after he "killed" Cobblepot. I think that it was really a test to see how noble Gordon was and if it would be someone he could actually work with.

----------


## Nite-Wing

More thoughts
I don't have a problem with corrupt Bullock that's the one thing the pilot got right. He barely cares about his job and has to be motivated to do it by more competent detectives
I don't like how the Wayne murder was shot. It looked like the guy was out to kill them
Selina running around as a mini catgirl is kinda random compared to how grounded the show was after that.
Can we just stop with this cockney accent alfred?

----------


## cranger

I enjoyed this a lot. Sure I could heap some criticism on parts of the show but it was no worse than anything else on television.

As for a couple things mentioned earlier:

- I do not think the apartment is Gordon's. Barbara makes a comment about him moving in to her apartment or something like that. I get the impression that her family is well off.

- Bullock did not come off as corrupt to me. Yes, he turns a blind eye to the crime families dealing with their own problems but he does not seem to be benefitting financially or in any way other than keeping himself out of needless danger. Nothing showed he did not care about his job or the innocent victims of crime.

- A lot of the character introductions may have seen forced or pandering but I think that is just something people more exposed to the comics might feel. For the viewer who only has a little knowledge of Batman it probably comes off as pretty interesting. At least the is the impression I got from my family and friends who all talked about it last night and this morning.

- I will have to rewatch that scene with Gordon and Cobblepott to see Bullocks reaction again. I did find the scene rather odd. As for Penguin killing the fisherman, well he likely snapped and gave in to his homicidal tendencies and/or could not have a witness since he had just been handed a faked death.

----------


## Abishai100

I think the Penguin, Riddler, and Poison Ivy really stood out, and I thought David Mazouz (Bruce Wayne) was effective as the burgeoning pensive knight.

Catwoman was a little too pickpocket-like, but then again, Catwoman shouldn't stand out too much in a Gotham developing ominous terrorists (she is a pseudo-ally of Batman afterall).

I was worried that the Fish Mooney character would be a space-filler, but it turns out the character was a decent atmosphere wizard.

If we see novelty merchandise associated with this Fox program, we might see it go for 3-4 satisfying seasons.  The TV ads during the show were nice; of course, I watched the program in HD.

I'd like to see who could play Two-Face; maybe Haley Joel Osment ("The Sixth Sense" - 1999)?

I was a little concerned with the overly-ambitious talk about street crime (i.e., mugging, etc.).

Could we a luscious cross-over with Green Arrow? There was, after all, a nifty little Harley Quinn cameo on _Arrow_ (The CW).



 :EEK!: 

Street Justice (Syndication)


hq.jpg

----------


## nightrider

Wow. Definitely an underwhelming first episode cos i was really expecting a lot more after waiting for 3 months. But to be honest, I'm okay with it cos I like how they set up plot lines for so many more episodes. I guess I just didn't adjust my expectations. 
But on the plus side, I love Fish Mooney, I love Penguin and wow, Ben Mckenzie gave his best work of his career. 
What I need more is suspense, this is playing out a lot like CSI: Gotham, but what I rather have is Gotham: The following. Although to be honest, its really hard to do that when you come off Bruce and Martha's murder, cos everyone knows Joe Chill did it, but moving forward, with more complicated cases, I'll like to see a real suspense playing out, kinda like Hush or Court of Owls and I think Gotham would have the right tools to do it, make it dark like The Following and show us lots and lots of villains and supporting characters.

----------


## Dzetoun

> - A lot of the character introductions may have seen forced or pandering but I think that is just something people more exposed to the comics might feel. For the viewer who only has a little knowledge of Batman it probably comes off as pretty interesting. At least the is the impression I got from my family and friends who all talked about it last night and this morning.


This is a crucial point.  _Gotham_ is not, and cannot be, aimed primarily at comic book readers.  There don't even begin to be enough of them to support a television show.  It is aimed primarily at members of the general public who know who Batman is, who probably have appreciated (and bought tickets for) the various films, and who play Batman-themed video games.  After all, there are how many regular readers of Batman comics in the world?  A few hundred thousand, including trades and digital?  That wouldn't support two episodes on the CW, much less on Fox.

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

The producers and such have stated firmly that the end of this series will either be cancellation or the first time that Bruce goes out at night as Batman for the first time.

----------


## Joe Passmore

> I got this feeling too... He was too proud of Gordon after he "killed" Cobblepot. I think that it was really a test to see how noble Gordon was and if it would be someone he could actually work with.


Right?  Plus, I can't believe they'd really be allowed to portray Bullock as someone who'd encourage and condone outright murder.  The Bullock/Gordon relationship is the core of the show, the solid center, and I can't buy that they'd have Bullock be such an irredeemable and contemptible person.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I don't see how anyone could have "little" knowledge of Batman. He's been in how many movies,video games and cartoons now? Batman is a firmly mainstream franchise now
I mean this isn't Green Arrow where you would appreciate highlighting the D or C list villains and being on the nose about it
In this pilot you have a little girl who is around nothing but plants and is called Ivy pepper. You have the not joker comedian,Penguin literally being called Penguin as an insult, and then the worst offender the riddler showing up and speaking in nothing but riddles.
I mean I don't think anyone besides children would be clueless as to not get who these characters are

I like Fish Mooney but I suspect being an original character means they have to work a bit harder to establish her outside of just the gimmick everyone else had to work with.

Bullock is corrupt, not sure how you can listen to him lay it out to Gordon about killing Penguin without getting the jist that he's supposed to kill Gordon if he doesn't go through with it. He doesn't even care about the fact that they didn't get the real killer. Someone mentioned that they played him a bit too much like Glass in Year One but for this show it works.

----------


## barryallenfan

i thought the show was terrible. Bad acting, Bad Script, if this was supposed to take place 20 yrs ago and they are driving old cars..where do the cell phones fit in. I like the lead actor, and the kid who plays Bruce....everyone else looked like a refuge from a Tim Burton or Joel Schumacker Batman movie. This was the worst, I'm done already

----------


## Tupiaz

> I don't see how anyone could have "little" knowledge of Batman. He's been in how many movies,video games and cartoons now? Batman is a firmly mainstream franchise now
> I mean this isn't Green Arrow where you would appreciate highlighting the D or C list villains and being on the nose about it
> In this pilot you have a little girl who is around nothing but plants and is called Ivy pepper. You have the not joker comedian,Penguin literally being called Penguin as an insult, and then the worst offender the riddler showing up and speaking in nothing but riddles.
> I mean I don't think anyone besides children would be clueless as to not get who these characters are
> 
> I like Fish Mooney but I suspect being an original character means they have to work a bit harder to establish her outside of just the gimmick everyone else had to work with.
> 
> Bullock is corrupt, not sure how you can listen to him lay it out to Gordon about killing Penguin without getting the jist that he's supposed to kill Gordon if he doesn't go through with it. He doesn't even care about the fact that they didn't get the real killer. Someone mentioned that they played him a bit too much like Glass in Year One but for this show it works.


Is it a problem that it is obvious? Also it is Flass not Glass. 




> i thought the show was terrible. Bad acting, Bad Script, if this was supposed to take place 20 yrs ago and they are driving old cars..where do the cell phones fit in. I like the lead actor, and the kid who plays Bruce....everyone else looked like a refuge from a Tim Burton or Joel Schumacker Batman movie. This was the worst, I'm done already


It is not suppose to take place 20 years ago. It is supposed to take place 20 (more like 10-15) years before Bruce becomes Batman.

----------


## cranger

> I don't see how anyone could have "little" knowledge of Batman. He's been in how many movies,video games and cartoons now? Batman is a firmly mainstream franchise now


Of course, but what I mean is that for most people these are elements of the Batman lore that help make it feel like Batman without and actual Batman, even if some of them are too obvious.



> Bullock is corrupt, not sure how you can listen to him lay it out to Gordon about killing Penguin without getting the jist that he's supposed to kill Gordon if he doesn't go through with it. He doesn't even care about the fact that they didn't get the real killer. Someone mentioned that they played him a bit too much like Glass in Year One but for this show it works.


I still find the execution scene odd but it goes back to me not seeing Bullock as someone who is what would traditionally be called corrupt. Instead he is someone who is trying to survive to fight another day. He does not outright dismiss the fact that they got the wrong guy, he makes it clear that to try to correct their mistake would cost them their jobs and given how harsh Gotham is maybe more.

----------


## Mr. Huston

I have to admit, I was pretty disappointed with the pilot. Watching it reminded me why I haven't bothered with a network television show like this since The X Files. 

There doesn't seem to be any room for subtlety and nuance here. The Riddler can only speak in riddles; Catwoman only travels by rooftop (and is able to be _everywhere_ for some reason); Ivy has to suffer an embarrassing and arbitrary name change, and then do nothing but fondle some plants, apparently. None of these characters have any motivation for behaving the way they do other than one is the Riddler, one is Catwoman, and so on. Of course these characters can all be fleshed out as the show continues, but you only get one chance to make a first impression. The scene with Falcone and Gordon was such a missed opportunity to inject a wee bit of shading to the world and Falcone's character. Instead, we get a great actor deadpanning myopic dialogue and flat out stating the central themes to the show. The audience should be treated with a little more respect, methinks. 

Renee Montoya and Crispus Allen are awful. The two weakest performances in the pilot by far, which is saying something. That's just not acceptable moving forward. The scene between Renee and Barbara was thoroughly terrible, from the staging, to the compositions, to the dialogue and wooden acting. 

We live in a post 'The Wire' world. I expect much, much more from an hour of drama on television.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> We live in a post 'The Wire' world. I expect much, much more from an hour of drama on television.


There is a reason Network TV only represents a third of the TV viewership now-a-days. It just cannot compete with cable and the way each channel can hone in on a tiny demographic and get the most bang for their buck. Network TV is terrible because it simultaneously demands really high ratings while at the same time being forced to broadcast programs that have as wide of an appeal as possible. That is a recipe for producing bland milk-toast shows. There is a reason Network TV's schedules are dominated by Sitcoms, Sports, reality TV and Police/Trial/Medical shows.

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## The Whovian

> Does anyone think that in the scene where Gordon is supposed to kill Penguin, that when it looked like Gordon was going to do it Harvey became disappointed, and that when Gordon acted like he killed him Harvey knew he didn't and that's why he said "atta boy" because deep down he wanted to believe that Gordon was different, and that he would do the right thing. It seemed to point to him saying atta boy because of the perception that Gordon did it but i don't know.


I thought so too, but wasn't sure. I'll have to take a look again. I think fans are beating up the writers of this show way too soon. Maybe this Bullock starts off crooked but because he's paired with Gordon, he sees how wrong he is and becomes a good cop eventually. Give the show more than just one ep guys before making snap judgments.

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## nightrider

> I have to admit, I was pretty disappointed with the pilot. Watching it reminded me why I haven't bothered with a network television show like this since The X Files. 
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any room for subtlety and nuance here. The Riddler can only speak in riddles; Catwoman only travels by rooftop (and is able to be _everywhere_ for some reason); Ivy has to suffer an embarrassing and arbitrary name change, and then do nothing but fondle some plants, apparently. None of these characters have any motivation for behaving the way they do other than one is the Riddler, one is Catwoman, and so on. Of course these characters can all be fleshed out as the show continues, but you only get one chance to make a first impression. The scene with Falcone and Gordon was such a missed opportunity to inject a wee bit of shading to the world and Falcone's character. Instead, we get a great actor deadpanning myopic dialogue and flat out stating the central themes to the show. The audience should be treated with a little more respect, methinks. 
> 
> Renee Montoya and Crispus Allen are awful. The two weakest performances in the pilot by far, which is saying something. That's just not acceptable moving forward. The scene between Renee and Barbara was thoroughly terrible, from the staging, to the compositions, to the dialogue and wooden acting. 
> 
> We live in a post 'The Wire' world. I expect much, much more from an hour of drama on television.


Well, I disagree that these characters need motivations on the get go.I thought the scene with Falcone was pretty alright, any scene with Ben Mckenzie is an instant steal. Not saying the show is gangbuster, but its really not as bad as you're saying it. I guess people online are pretty dramatic.

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## The Whovian

> Hard to separate Gotham from NYC; I've been to and recognize so many of the places here.


If you watch the Gotham Reborn pre-show, they explain that they filmed NYC from a helicopter and then used CGI to add the gargoyles and the Gotham skyline over the NYC buildings.

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## KOSLOX

I thought it was pretty entertaining.  I kind of wished that they wouldn't have tried to get nods to so many characters in but understand why they wanted to do it.  I really liked the actors that played Gordon and Bullock and think that once this show finds it's rhythm it could be something really cool.

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## Nite-Wing

I think the show could have been a lot better. 
You can already see the comic book influences in some places Selina's character in general seems like they want to get right into her being Catwoman since she's already got the moves and stuff down. The way the mobster mentions the theatrics aren't really his style of killing but Fish Mooney wants it done this way and in walks a costumed butcher. The Riddler's whole character.
The show wants to establish the comic book world or maybe give it lip service but that's not enough to really make it good. Gordon's character is more naive than I'd expect. Not at all like the guy we see in Year One. That might be because he's younger but his overall characterization for this show seems to be just the noble cop which is kinda weak. 
Bullock definitely had a lot more nuance to his character being the corrupt partner who was more experienced than Gordon this go around.

I don't really like the idea of a good portion of Batman's Rogue's gallery getting aged up but for characters like Penguin its fine.

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## SXVA

> I thought so too, but wasn't sure. I'll have to take a look again. I think fans are beating up the writers of this show way too soon. Maybe this Bullock starts off crooked but because he's paired with Gordon, he sees how wrong he is and becomes a good cop eventually. Give the show more than just one ep guys before making snap judgments.


Ya, people write things off way too soon these days... you got TV series ending after 4 episodes because people aren't willing to give it time.

The characters aren't going to embody the entirety of what they are in one episode, the story isn't going to be like a movie where it all comes together in that one sitting, it's going to develop and build over multiple seasons.

I don't think Bullock is corrupt exactly, he's just a cop who's lost hope and faith in things, probably through experiences of criminals getting away, other cops being corrupt, and/or many arrests not really changing things all that drastically, etc... and that's the way a cop who's lost hope goes about things... within a greyer area.

I think that was established for that contrast between Bullock/Gordon, to where Bullock is going to find his faith and hope again through his relationship with Gordon, and if i'm correct in interpreting that aforementioned scene, that's the first big moment to that end... deep down hoping Gordon is what he seems to be, that he's not going to be like all the others because i think deep down that faith and hope of a good cop is there with Bullock, he just needs someone like Gordon to bring him back to that place once again.

That's going to be the most interesting aspect to the series for me, if that's the case... there was already a lot of it set up in that episode.

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## AngelsXDemons

I admit that I went into this show with a bit of trepidation; fearing the worst but hoping for the best and, in the end I was blown away with pleasant results. The production values of _'Gotham'_ are on a well polished movie scale. The cinematography is beautifully shot and the chase between Jim Gordon (McKenzie) and the framed Mario was screaming awesome. I like how this show marries the comic book spirit of Batman with the _NCIS_ law/cop drama elements to marvelous results although in further episodes the producers are going to need to be careful not to overplay the police drama aspect so as not to alienate comic book action _(I'm looking at you Elementary)_. There must be a nicely maintained balance between the Batman prequel world building and the _NCIS/Law & Order_ elements.

What really struck me as solid gold was young Selina Kyle witnessing the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents as that certainly lays the foundation for the affection and unusual vigilante/criminal friendship we see between Catwoman and Batman in the pages of the comics and Batman Arkham video games. Her outfit and pet cat certainly is a foreshadowing of her feline future. Like, most everyone else here I certainly agree that David Mazouz shined in the role of adolescent Bruce Wayne; seriously, he is everything that my mind's eye plays out when I read young Bruce in the comics. Camren Bicondova makes for a killer Catgirl and Jada Pinkett Smith just owned the night. As for Penguin, dude, ya can't go wrong with him. Ben McKenzie and Donal Logue have such chemistry together that it's almost like watching William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy in a bromance. FOX totally hit a home-run with _'Gotham'_ in my book and I certainly pray that don't cancel this show anytime soon and they better not jump the shark. 

@AlexanderLuthor, @ RobinFan4880, Shows such as Marvel Agents of Shield, Gotham, Smallville, Young Justice and Arrow should never alienate the family and teenage audience and they shouldn't either. Television viewing families, especially nerdy ones, need to be able hit the coach together and watch together, a show like Gotham or Smallville is obviously appropriate for tweens/teens, and for some younger viewers it's all up to the parent's discretion. I'm sick of people always complaining about a show not being dark this or dark that. Stop whining for everything to be adults only or kids only. We need a middle ground. Television should be at the very least accessible to the general audience. Shows like The CW's Vampire Diaries, FOX's Gotham, Sleepy Hollow and Cartoon Network's Young Justice bridge the divide between tween/teen and young adult/older adult viewers. When I was around the age of ten or so my parents let me watch PG-13 movies which are generally appropriate for the general audience anyway. Back when I was about 12 or 14 my parents also let me watch Mel Gibson's The Patriot. Movies like The Passion of The Christ, Enter The Matrix and 300 really should have only been rated PG-13 anyway. In my opinion, most rated M games such as Halo, DmC, Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, Prince of Persia and Tomb Raider are basically PG-13 level affairs also and really should just be rated T+ instead of M. DC Comics, Marvel Comics, Darkhorse Comics and their properties such as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Thor, Spider-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy have always been accessible both to kids and adults and it should remain that way both in the comic page and on television/theatrical screen.

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## RobinFan4880

> @AlexanderLuthor, @ RobinFan4880, Shows such as Marvel Agents of Shield, Gotham, Smallville, Young Justice and Arrow should never alienate the family and teenage audience and they shouldn't either. Television viewing families, especially nerdy ones, need to be able hit the coach together and watch together, a show like Gotham or Smallville is obviously appropriate for tweens/teens, and for some younger viewers it's all up to the parent's discretion. I'm sick of people always complaining about a show not being dark this or dark that. Stop whining for everything to be adults only or kids only. We need a middle ground. Television should be at the very least accessible to the general audience. Shows like The CW's Vampire Diaries, FOX's Gotham, Sleepy Hollow and Cartoon Network's Young Justice bridge the divide between tween/teen and young adult/older adult viewers. When I was around the age of ten or so my parents let me watch PG-13 movies which are generally appropriate for the general audience anyway. Back when I was about 12 or 14 my parents also let me watch Mel Gibson's The Patriot. Movies like The Passion of The Christ, Enter The Matrix and 300 really should have only been rated PG-13 anyway. In my opinion, most rated M games such as Halo, DmC, Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, Prince of Persia and Tomb Raider are basically PG-13 level affairs also and really should just be rated T+ instead of M. DC Comics, Marvel Comics, Darkhorse Comics and their properties such as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Thor, Spider-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy have always been accessible both to kids and adults and it should remain that way both in the comic page and on television/theatrical screen.


I did not complain about the show not being dark enough. I think it is too dark if you want to go after the "middle ground" of demographics. That doesn't mean we need unicorns and a moral at the end of each episode but making the overt violence less bloody on screen and performing more of it off camera would be better. 

PG-13 is not appropriate for general audiences. You should not take a kid into a PG-13 movie. 

Most of the games you listed get bumped up in ratings because you are killing people (rather than destroying robots and/or "knocking them out"). Beyond that, the way the killing is shown is also an issue (if you just shot someone with a gun and they fall to the ground is less graphic than shooting someone, watching the bullet blow off their leg). Additionally, games put players in an active rather than passive role. Games should be rated more strictly than movies because you are actively seeking out and creating the violence rather than it simply being presented to you. Beyond that, the amount of time one plays a game vastly outstrips the time one watches a movie. The rating system errs on the caution. Remember the average age of a video game player is almost 30.  Kids are not really the core demographic any more. Games are designed for adults should stay in their hands. 

Almost every in-continuity, Big Two comic produced now-a-days are rated T. They are not designed nor targeted towards kids.  In fact I cringed when I saw Toys-R-Us selling   Death of the Family comics right next to all the action figures whose core demographic is not Teens but children.

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## doodledude

Catgirl was the best thing about the episode.To really make this interesting they will need some pre Batman teacher vigilante maybe the Grey Ghost?If it's just a cop show based in Gotham the shit will be boring and will soon be canceled.

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## Kid A

> Catgirl was the best thing about the episode.To really make this interesting they will need some pre Batman teacher vigilante maybe the Grey Ghost?If it's just a cop show based in Gotham the shit will be boring and will soon be canceled.


Or a certain famous detective from London.

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## Maxpower00044

It wasn't great, but it was definitely not as bad as some are making it out to be. Hopefully, there's something more to Bullock, because, right now, his character is a little bit too corrupt for my tastes. Montoya and Allen aren't likeable, and I really like those characters, so, I'd like to see them handled better. Riddler was too over the top, they need to dial that back a few notches. I was surprised how much I enjoyed the comedian scene, and I hope they keep having scenes like that. It's a great way to have a "multiple origin" for Joker (something I hope they never do, is an concrete origin). I thought it was shot beautifully, and the acting wasn't hardly as bad as people are making it out to be. The Crime Alley scene was really, really well done. As, for the violence; it wasn't that violent! You should already know to expect violence in a story about the worst city in America. The worst thing they could've done is dumb that down or having violence be off screen. 

All in all, will keep watching. Pilots are usually not a good measure for how a show is going to turn out.

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## Maxpower00044

> Almost every in-continuity, Big Two comic produced now-a-days are rated T. They are not designed nor targeted towards kids.  In fact I cringed when I saw Toys-R-Us selling   Death of the Family comics right next to all the action figures whose core demographic is not Teens but children.


Actually, most comics at Marvel are rated Teen +, and so should most DC comics. It makes me laugh that a comic like 'Batman' is only teen, but 'Batwoman' is T+, just because it stars a lesbian character. Pathetic...

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## AngelsXDemons

> I did not complain about the show not being dark enough. I think it is too dark if you want to go after the "middle ground" of demographics. That doesn't mean we need unicorns and a moral at the end of each episode but making the overt violence less bloody on screen and performing more of it off camera would be better. 
> 
> PG-13 is not appropriate for general audiences. You should not take a kid into a PG-13 movie. 
> 
> Most of the games you listed get bumped up in ratings because you are killing people (rather than destroying robots and/or "knocking them out"). Beyond that, the way the killing is shown is also an issue (if you just shot someone with a gun and they fall to the ground is less graphic than shooting someone, watching the bullet blow off their leg). Additionally, games put players in an active rather than passive role. Games should be rated more strictly than movies because you are actively seeking out and creating the violence rather than it simply being presented to you. Beyond that, the amount of time one plays a game vastly outstrips the time one watches a movie. The rating system errs on the caution. Remember the average age of a video game player is almost 30.  Kids are not really the core demographic any more. Games are designed for adults should stay in their hands. 
> 
> Almost every in-continuity, Big Two comic produced now-a-days are rated T. They are not designed nor targeted towards kids.  In fact I cringed when I saw Toys-R-Us selling   Death of the Family comics right next to all the action figures whose core demographic is not Teens but children.


I guess opinion is more subjective and relative because when I've gone to the theater to see PG and PG-13 movies such as Guardians of the Galaxy, X-Men First Class, The Hunger Games, Man of Steel, Maleficent, Snow White & the Hunts and NOAH I saw quite a vast array of children which appeared to be as young as the ages of nine or eleven with their parents. I know personally know families who have taken their kids with them to PG-13 movies and who continue to do so often. Again, I believe that it's all up to the parental discretion of the parent. When I saw Man of Steel, X-Men and NOAH at the theaters it was more sons and their dads at the movies. My personal opinion for a movie like True Grit or The Fast and the Furious I wouldn't take a child under the age of 11 or 12 to see either of those types of movie but I would take a 11 year old to see a movie like Kingsman The Secret Service. 

But seriously, I agree that Batman Death of the Family isn't the best comic story arc to share with a adolescent under the age of at least twelve but then again it depends on what that kid is able to handle mentally. I've seen kids reading some manga which can get pretty dark. Even Naruto get's dark and lots of kids around the age of ten read that. But really, Marvel Comics and DC Comics is in my opinion are safe for kids ages twelve and up. Stuff like Superman and Batman is what I was raised on by my parents as a kid and I'll raise my kids on it. I grew up watching the Tim Burton Batman movies and watching the dark cartoon Batman The Animated Series along with Justice League Animated. DC Comics and Marvel have an appeal that transcends age and that is as it should be. Heck, in my day kids grew up on stuff like Jurassic Park and re-runs of the gritty Indiana Jones movies. What the heck? Are we going to go soft now all of a sudden?

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## doodledude

> Or a certain famous detective from London.


Nah DC has to many roof top runners and vigialantes in their years of publication to do that.Sherlock Holmes is all over the place these days 2 recent movies and 2 tv shows is enough of him.Crimson Avenger would be better he predated Batman in Detective Comics and could be cool if mixed with Geoff Johns JSA version.Kinda like this

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## PretenderNX01

> I don't like how the Wayne murder was shot. It looked like the guy was out to kill them


I think they were establishing he was out to kill him.




> I still find the execution scene odd but it goes back to me not seeing Bullock as someone who is what would traditionally be called corrupt.


From what I read on the Wiki for Bullock the first issues with him in it had him as a possibly corrupt cop which is what I guess influenced this version. Otherwise he's usually seen as his Animated counterpart in being tough but not crossing the line.




> I thought so too, but wasn't sure. I'll have to take a look again. I think fans are beating up the writers of this show way too soon.


From what I've seen of Facebook comments, the non-hardcore fans were pretty happy with Gotham as I am. I would call myself medium-core having read a fair amount of comics and followed animated and live-action adaptions.




> If you watch the Gotham Reborn pre-show, they explain that they filmed NYC from a helicopter and then used CGI to add the gargoyles and the Gotham skyline over the NYC buildings.


I guess he recognized the CGI places? People have an idea of what city's are and it's interesting how they see them. Even Rami's Spider-Man used a lot of CGI to give New York a more New York look than the real deal could give. I would imagine people still recognized their New York even when it was CGI.




> I thought it was pretty entertaining.  I kind of wished that they wouldn't have tried to get nods to so many characters in but understand why they wanted to do it.  I really liked the actors that played Gordon and Bullock and think that once this show finds it's rhythm it could be something really cool.


Yeah the cameos were heavy but I read that was on purpose for the pilot and they won't go overboard in future episodes:

_Bruno Heller: Obviously, the demands of opening big mean that we will frontload it with lots of characters in front, just to indicate where we're going. As the show rolls on, it won't be villain-of-the-week simply, because these are such great villains and their storylines are so big and epic that it would be short-changing everyone if we did it in that sort of production line way. So there are a lot of big characters in that first episode, but as it rolls on, other iconic characters will be introduced, but in a much more measured way, if you like._
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=55606

Edit:


> PG-13 is not appropriate for general audiences. You should not take a kid into a PG-13 movie.


Uh, PG-13 is the bread and butter of Hollywood. PG is too lame and R is too violent. Pretty much all of the most financially successful films are PG-13.

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## AngelsXDemons

With Harley Quinn's brief cameo and Easter egg on The CW's 'Arrow' then I suppose we can expect her to show up sooner rather than later in 'Gotham' despite it airing on FOX. My younger sister and her best friend are crazy fans of 'Arrow' and love Harley Quinn from the 'Arkham' video games the latter of which is how my sister discovered Harley. I hope for her sake despite the different networks that Harley Quinn does show up in 'Gotham' although I think that if she does it will be toward the end of season one and the opening episodes of season two.

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## Nite-Wing

I heard Fox has the rights to use every Bat villains besides the Joker and that only pertains to how he's portrayed in the movies.

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## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Nah DC has to many roof top runners and vigis in their years of publication to do that.Sherlock Holmes is all over the place these days 2 recent movies and 2 tv shows is enough of him.


Precisely because DC has too many roof top runners it would be a good idea to do a different kind of hero. Sherlock has classic ties to DC. Besides the failed series, he has crossed paths with the Elongated Man twice, and once with Batman (twice if you count The Brave and the Bold). He was part of both the Earth-1 and New Earth continuity.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to have him crossing paths with the likes of Vandal Savage, Immortal Man, Etrigan, Shade, Gentleman Ghost, Jonah Hex, Lucifer or a Swamp Thing in Detective Comics backups of a while, prose or regular comics.
I've always though that certain characters like Holmes, Fu Manchu, Tarzan, Frankenstein, Dracula, Robin Hood, Marlowe, King Arthur and Cthulhu should always be part of the DC mythos,.

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## RobinFan4880

> Uh, PG-13 is the bread and butter of Hollywood. PG is too lame and R is too violent. Pretty much all of the most financially successful films are PG-13.


That pertains to not bringing kids how? There are far more tweens and adults than children.

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## AngelsXDemons

> Precisely because DC has too many roof top runners it would be a good idea to do a different kind of hero. ...
> I've always though that certain characters like Holmes, Fu Manchu, Tarzan, *Frankenstein*, Dracula, Robin Hood, Marlowe, King Arthur and Cthulhu should always be part of the DC mythos,.

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## Jphu8414

Loved Ben McKenzie as Gordon and Donal Logue as Harvey, thought they totally nailed their performances and will undoubted be the best thing in the show for me coming down the line.

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## doodledude

> Precisely because DC has too many roof top runners it would be a good idea to do a different kind of hero. Sherlock has classic ties to DC. Besides the failed series, he has crossed paths with the Elongated Man twice, and once with Batman (twice if you count The Brave and the Bold). He was part of both the Earth-1 and New Earth continuity.
> It wouldn't be a bad idea to have him crossing paths with the likes of Vandal Savage, Immortal Man, Etrigan, Shade, Gentleman Ghost, Jonah Hex, Lucifer or a Swamp Thing in Detective Comics backups of a while, prose or regular comics.
> I've always though that certain characters like Holmes, Fu Manchu, Tarzan, Frankenstein, Dracula, Robin Hood, Marlowe, King Arthur and Cthulhu should always be part of the DC mythos,.


I know Holmes has appeared in the DC universe.But as a buisness option it would be better for DC/WB merchandising and probaly more interesting for them to sell their own characters than to just add to the legend of Holmes.If you like Holmes there is plenty of him out there nowadays.They should do something fresh and more current.Plus I'm a comic fan I want them to stuff as many comic characters as they can into every episode!

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## Mahes

> Loved Ben McKenzie as Gordon and Donal Logue as Harvey, thought they totally nailed their performances and will undoubted be the best thing in the show for me coming down the line.


Agreed, that was the strength of the show. I'm on the fence about the pilot as there are a lot of good/bads about it. I'm giving it a couple of episodes before I make final decision.

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## AngelsXDemons

> That pertains to not bringing kids how? There are far more tweens and adults than children.


Because PG-13 reaches a broader audience. Plenty of kids went with their parents to see Guardians of the Galaxy just as plenty of kids went with their parents to see The Twilight Saga, Pirates of the Caribbean, Sherlock Holmes A Game of Shadows, The Hunger Games. PG-13 attracts kids, tweens, teens and their adult parents just as TV-PG and TV-PG-14 shows like Pretty Little Liars, Gotham, Sleepy Hollow, Once Upon A Time, Beware The Batman and The Vampire Diaries draw nerdy adults and then kids and tweens around the television on the sofa in the evening. It you can get a broader audience of viewers than your production will sell like hot cakes on DVD/BluRay which in turn means your clothing line, shoes, hats, toys, trading cards and other tie-in merchandise will sell really well also.

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## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I enjoyed this a lot. Sure I could heap some criticism on parts of the show but it was no worse than anything else on television.


Somebody missed Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones and House of Cards. TV has been getting awesome.




> Right?  Plus, I can't believe they'd really be allowed to portray Bullock as someone who'd encourage and condone outright murder.  The Bullock/Gordon relationship is the core of the show, the solid center, and I can't buy that they'd have Bullock be such an irredeemable and contemptible person.


He is redeemable as he cares for Gordon and he can be easily pushed to do the right thing. However, I'd hate if writers get this version as an influence. He is supposed to be a good guy with a rough exterior, not an insecure mess with a gray morality. His personality is nothing like previous incarnations. The writing is weak, so I wouldn't be surprised if the flanderise him into a full villain.




> i thought the show was terrible. Bad acting, Bad Script, if this was supposed to take place 20 yrs ago and they are driving old cars..where do the cell phones fit in. I like the lead actor, and the kid who plays Bruce....everyone else looked like a refuge from a Tim Burton or Joel Schumacker Batman movie. This was the worst, I'm done already


I don't think they reach Burton levels. Just think of how poorly done was the murder scene. It's not brilliant but it's nowhere nearly as awkward. 




Nolan, however, was a bit more natural: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP4KLs_1G6I

But even cartoons pulled it better than this show. In The Batman, the Alfred scene was better.




> Even though Penguin's plan failed he at least had a plan. His role in the show is as far as I know is to make a beef between Falcone and Fish Moony. What do you think was ok about Bullock characterisation. It is probably the word I have the biggest problems with. Riddler has never really been "cool" he is physical weak and social awkward. He has what many would label as "geek". I like the Riddler as a character and he is intelligent but not cool. It is logical why Bullock would find him weird, he thinks Batman is a freak. The brief scene with Nigma doesn't changes this view of him. 
> .


"At least" doesn't make the cut for me. It's clear that he has a plan and that he will be the main villain (since he has to escalate from henchman to kingpin), but they don't understand the character. He is a narcisistic sociopath, like the Riddler, he can't stop talking about how great he is. See Batman 1966, Batman Returns, Penguin Triumphant, BTBATB and the Arkham games for reference. 

The way Bullock talks and his basic reactions is close enough, that's what I call ok.  The final scene was not ok and I agree that it was the main problem of the show. They should have used Flass as the partner and Bullock as Montoya's partner. A rival jerk who turns out to be right. In that case, the personality should be the loud temperamental boss, close to Perry White, Dan Turpin (in evil, the Scarface dummy) only sloppier, stubborn and hard to work with. 

The Riddler is socially awkward in that he is petulant, narcissistic, and yeas a geek, not a dorky spaz. Gorshin basically created the character, but good characterizations make the riddles sound interesting, not lame and dorky. His attitude shouldn't be eager to please, but looking down at people because they can't think like him. Bullock would find him weird either way.

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## Mr. Huston

> PG-13 is not appropriate for general audiences. You should not take a kid into a PG-13 movie.



Parents need to be the ones who decide when their kids should be able to see certain things. Nobody else.





> Well, I disagree that these characters need motivations on the get go.I thought the scene with Falcone was pretty alright, any scene with Ben Mckenzie is an instant steal. Not saying the show is gangbuster, but its really not as bad as you're saying it. I guess people online are pretty dramatic.


Or they just have opinions you don't happen to share. Either way.

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## lorec

Figured I'd weigh in on Gotham.  I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore Batman/Gotham fan, but I know the background, have collected the comics for several years, so I'm more than just an average fan as well.  With that said, I liked the pilot.  Seeing Nygma, Cobblepot, Ivy, and Selina Kyle before they become Riddler, Penguin, Poison Ivy, and Catwoman has appeal to me.  I loved Gordon and Bullock and their interaction.  It's just one episode but this could be really, really good.

As a side note, I also some posts about the PG-13 ratings on stuff.  I've got a 15 year old daughter and have been taking her to PG-13 movies since she was 9.  A lot of it depends on WHY the movie has the rating it has.  Is language, violence, blood & gore, sex, etc.?  My daughter and I talked very early about what is and isn't real when it came to video games because she took an interest in playing Gears of War.  She's been playing the game with me since the 2nd game and has played all of them.  But we talk, we communicate and she isn't maladjusted in any way.  But that's violence, gore, and language.  Game of Thrones is a different animal because of all the nudity and sex....she isn't watching that, and that was her mom's call.  Bottom line, it's going to be different for different families, and that's ok.

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## Kid A

> Nah DC has to many roof top runners and vigialantes in their years of publication to do that.Sherlock Holmes is all over the place these days 2 recent movies and 2 tv shows is enough of him.Crimson Avenger would be better he predated Batman in Detective Comics and could be cool if mixed with Geoff Johns JSA version.Kinda like this[


I was only half serious, but no I think having a proto-Batman running around before Batman himself would be dumb on so many levels.  It makes the impact of Batman himself redundant, you may as well give people a Batman show or a Gotham Central show if they went that route.

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## Nite-Wing

They obviously set this show during this time to push the whole lack of vigilante aspect onto Gotham. The show is going kinda Life on Mars meets Gotham 
I wouldn't really expect Batman or any other vigilantes to show up but they do kinda have Catgirl already and she's supposed to be protecting lil Bruce so that could go either way
I think if there's too much of a demand for Batman or whoever and the show is popular enough they'd probably greenlit a spin off

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## LoneNecromancer

> I was only half serious, but no I think having a proto-Batman running around before Batman himself would be dumb on so many levels. * It makes the impact of Batman himself redundant, you may as well give people a Batman show or a Gotham Central show if they went that route.*


Pretty much.

----------


## doodledude

> I was only half serious, but no I think having a proto-Batman running around before Batman himself would be dumb on so many levels.  It makes the impact of Batman himself redundant, you may as well give people a Batman show or a Gotham Central show if they went that route.


They did that in DC universe for years and it worked.It does'nt take away from him.Another cop show on TV in a different genre is still shit for me. There are enough damn cop shows on tv and now the net it's redundant as hell not to mention I see alot of past law and order cast offs already on this show.If no vigilantes show up by the middle of series I'm out.The pilot was pretty boring compared to the Flash pilot and Arrow pilot.I liked those from the start.If you're gonna do superheroes do them.Don't come half assed.Who wants to see that?

----------


## Kid A

> They did that in DC universe for years and it worked.It does'nt take away from him.Another cop show on TV in a different genre is still shit for me there are enough damn cop shows on tv and now the net it's redundant as hell not to mention I see alot of past law and order cast offs already on this show.If no vigilantes show up by the middle of series I'm out pilot was pretty boring compared to the Flash pilot and Arrow pilot.I liked those from the start.If you're gonna do superheroes do them.Don't come half assed.Who wants to see that?


This isn't the DC Universe anymore than the Nolan-verse was the DC Universe.  If they wanted to do a show about a vigilante set in Gotham, they would do a Batman show, not settle for a prototypical Batman that the audience isn't familiar with.  If you don't want to watch a cop show, I feel you, but maybe this show just isn't for you in that case.

----------


## The Whovian

> Somebody missed Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones and House of Cards. TV has been getting awesome.


And Supernatural, Justified, Walking Dead, Orphan Black, Vikings, etc, etc.

----------


## Sirzechs

Montoya and Jim seems to be the same age that kinda rubs me the wrong way other than that i enjoyed it.

----------


## Tupiaz

> The way Bullock talks and his basic reactions is close enough, that's what I call ok.  The final scene was not ok and I agree that it was the main problem of the show. They should have used Flass as the partner and Bullock as Montoya's partner. A rival jerk who turns out to be right. In that case, the personality should be the loud temperamental boss, close to Perry White, Dan Turpin (in evil, the Scarface dummy) only sloppier, stubborn and hard to work with. 
> 
> The Riddler is socially awkward in that he is petulant, narcissistic, and yeas a geek, not a dorky spaz. Gorshin basically created the character, but good characterizations make the riddles sound interesting, not lame and dorky. His attitude shouldn't be eager to please, but looking down at people because they can't think like him. Bullock would find him weird either way.


The key point is that this is before any of them has power and has become the characters as we know them. Therefore they act different and will later become what we know them for. People does change over time. People aren't born as a ruthless kingpin or a narcissistic genius. It is very likely that a person will abandon people and hate them if the person has been disrespected earlier.

----------


## doodledude

> This isn't the DC Universe anymore than the Nolan-verse was the DC Universe.  If they wanted to do a show about a vigilante set in Gotham, they would do a Batman show, not settle for a prototypical Batman that the audience isn't familiar with.  If you don't want to watch a cop show, I feel you, but maybe this show just isn't for you in that case.


The name of DC came from Batman's Detective comics.It is a DC universe whenever those characters from his comics are involved.They are alternate universes that split from original subject matter.Or you could say alternate stories from the original stories.I can tell you this if this show does not get ratings it will be cancelled as quik as shit on ice.Fox has had better shows with low ratings that they did'nt even give a chance to find an audience.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> The name of DC came from Batman's Detective comics.It is a DC universe whenever those characters from his comics are involved.They are alternate universes that split from original subject matter.Or you could say alternate stories from the original stories.I can tell you this if this show does not get ratings it will be cancelled as quik as shit on ice.Fox has had better shows with low ratings that they did'nt even give a chance to find an audience.


So needlessly aggressive all of a sudden. What are you even talking about now? Shows with low ratings get cancelled? Well that's a shocker.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The name of DC came from Batman's Detective comics.It is a DC universe whenever those characters from his comics are involved.They are alternate universes that split from original subject matter.Or you could say alternate stories from the original stories.I can tell you this if this show does not get ratings it will be cancelled as quik as shit on ice.Fox has had better shows with low ratings that they did'nt even give a chance to find an audience.


Do you seriously think _Gotham_'s ratings will be lower than _Arrow_?

----------


## billee0918

I loved the pilot, surprised and thrilled to say the series is off to a great start.

Re: Ivy's name....gee, maybe well learn more in upcoming episodes?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Re: Ivy's name....gee, maybe well learn more in upcoming episodes?


There's no reason why in the future she can't wind up as Pamela Isley

----------


## RobinFan4880

> There's no reason why in the future she can't wind up as Pamela Isley


Also, her nickname could be "Ivy" since she likes plants.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Also, her nickname could be "Ivy" since she likes plants.


True. At the moment, her name might be Pamela "Ivy" Pepper.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> So needlessly aggressive all of a sudden. What are you even talking about now? Shows with low ratings get cancelled? Well that's a shocker.


After having seen both of the pilot episodes for _'Constantine'_ and _'Gotham'_ I believe that both shows are strong and worthy enough to go for at least 3 to 5 seasons before either concluding, getting spin-offs or cancellation. I can see _'Constantine'_ spawning a _'Justice League Dark'_ or even a _'Raven'_ centric show and I'm hopeful that Harley Quinn, Raven, Klarion The Witch Boy, Katana, Pandora, Bunker, Amethyst Gemworld Princess, Phantom Stranger and Night Nurse will all make appearances as guest characters in both _'Gotham'_ and _'Constantine'_ and perhaps even in _'The Flash'_ despite the fact that all three DC Comics shows are airing on different networks with _'Supergirl'_ set to debut on CBS next year. We all know that Kid Flash, Aquaman, Green Arrow and Supergirl were prominent guest in episodes of _Smallville_ to great success.

I'm sure all of us here who have already watched and enjoyed the pilot episode of _Constantine_ have noticed the helm of Doctor Fate, which was, in my opinion, the biggest Easter egg in the whole episode signaling that he'll show up soon in future episodes and that certainly hints that Zatana can't be far behind either. On a side note, with so many mothers and daughters getting into comic books now that the "boys club" wall of partition has been broken down, I think it important that the people behind DC Comics television shows such as _The Flash_, and _Gotham_ need to shine a big spot light on the female characters like Amethyst, Starfire, Raven, Terra and Donna Troy. I think that _Arrow_ and Marvel's solid _Agents of Shield_ are already doing fairly good jobs of giving female characters a front seat role thus filling the need for solid good relateable onscreen females for young women and girls who are watching the shows and have been voicing such opinions on sites like themarysue.com.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

I had very low expectations for this, but was pleasantly surprised by the general feel of the show. Impressive production values and some solid cinematography, with only the serial killer (?) in the slaughterhouse looking somewhat hokey. As for the acting and writing though... Far from all of it was bad, but I rarely felt that the show had any sort of flow and some of the exposition was far too on the nose ("Oh hey, it's René Montoya and Crispus Allen from the MCU!") It also felt too conveniently wrapped up at the end, if I wasn't as invested in the world and characters from being a comic book fan I don't know if I would have any plot-centric reason to keep watching the show. I mean, the central mystery got solved, and everyone just got set up to do case-of-the-week stuff. A strange choice from the writer. All in all, my very low expectations were put to at least a small amount of shame, and I'll keep watching for now. 

GOOD STUFF:
The general production values
Penguin
Falcone

DECENT STUFF:
Ivy Pepper (Yep, I said it! Considering how flimsy the Poison Ivy character usually is, this actually had some promise)
Gordon & Bullock

(REALLY) BAD STUFF:
Alfred's accent
Montoya
Gordon's girlfiriend 
The random first act montage of people from a bad metal band being interrogated by G&B.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> And Supernatural, Justified, Walking Dead, Orphan Black, Vikings, etc, etc.


Supernatural? From what little I've seen it looks cheesy and not on the level of Breaking Bad, House of Cards, Game of Thrones, but I wouldn't know. Actually, of those you mention I've only seen Walking Dead a couple of times. Some other series that are good on different degrees include Dexter, House, Boston Legal and Monk. The last two have silly aspects, but I think they pull them well. 

Gotham has a loooooooong way to go. I think they need to hire great directors with license to correct the script when necessary. The cast is okay, they just need to watch their BTAS episodes over and over. Well Benjamin, would actually need year one and the Gordon scenes in the Nolan trilogy and Robin Lord hours of Burgess Meredith (almost in any role).

----------


## DurararaFTW

> After having seen both of the pilot episodes for _'Constantine'_ and _'Gotham'_ I believe that both shows are strong and worthy enough to go for at least 3 to 5 seasons before either concluding, getting spin-offs or cancellation. I can see _'Constantine'_ spawning a _'Justice League Dark'_ or even a _'Raven'_ centric show and I'm hopeful that Harley Quinn, Raven, Klarion The Witch Boy, Katana, Pandora, Bunker, Amethyst Gemworld Princess, Phantom Stranger and Night Nurse will all make appearances as guest characters in both _'Gotham'_ and _'Constantine'_ and perhaps even in _'The Flash'_ despite the fact that all three DC Comics shows are airing on different networks with _'Supergirl'_ set to debut on CBS next year.


I think all these magical characters making an appearance is rather much to ask of Gotham. I can see Giovanni and Zatanna Zatara showing up, given that many Bat-villains are circus themed and in certain adaptions Giovanni was the one who trained Bruce as an escape artist.

Raven will be a main lead on the TNT show Titans, making her appearing in Constantine unlikely in the near future.




> Ivy Pepper (Yep, I said it! Considering how flimsy the Poison Ivy character usually is, this actually had some promise)


I'm actually a bit disappointed that the dad got shot. He looks like the average cliche bat guy, crappy apartment, scared wife, list of charges then they get into his house and see it's filled with flowers and plants.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> The key point is that this is before any of them has power and has become the characters as we know them. Therefore they act different and will later become what we know them for. People does change over time. People aren't born as a ruthless kingpin or a narcissistic genius. It is very likely that a person will abandon people and hate them if the person has been disrespected earlier.


Attitude and habits definitively keeps evolving through life, but that's not the case with temperament and personality. People are actually born geniuses,  have a given amount or empathy and certain temperament. ASPD, HPD and NPD are basically set in stone. The first mistake came with a silver age story in which Oswald was portrayed as a victim of bulling. He would definitively get mocked, and he might get bullied, but he was born a narcissistic psychopath, which means that he was likely a bigger bully himself. Again, Penguin Trimphant. Same with the Riddler, by adulthood his personality disorder should be already well laid. The only case that can be justifiable is the Joker, who might have gotten his disorder as another effect of the fictional chemicals.  Thinking "It is very likely that a person will abandon people and hate them if the person has been disrespected earlier" is a cliche of bad fiction and makes all the difference between this and any other Batman version.




> I had very low expectations for this, but was pleasantly surprised by the general feel of the show. Impressive production values and some solid cinematography, with only the serial killer (?) in the slaughterhouse looking somewhat hokey. As for the acting and writing though... Far from all of it was bad, but I rarely felt that the show had any sort of flow and some of the exposition was far too on the nose ("Oh hey, it's René Montoya and Crispus Allen from the MCU!") It also felt too conveniently wrapped up at the end, if I wasn't as invested in the world and characters from being a comic book fan I don't know if I would have any plot-centric reason to keep watching the show. I mean, the central mystery got solved, and everyone just got set up to do case-of-the-week stuff. A strange choice from the writer. All in all, my very low expectations were put to at least a small amount of shame, and I'll keep watching for now. 
> 
> GOOD STUFF:
> The general production values
> Penguin
> Falcone
> 
> DECENT STUFF:
> Ivy Pepper (Yep, I said it! Considering how flimsy the Poison Ivy character usually is, this actually had some promise)
> ...


I had the opposite experience because at some point I was sold on the idea that it was going to be good. I changed my mind almost from the start of the first scene and the rest just reinforced. 

I disagree on the Penguin (he is my favorite, so I'm very strict) but I was pleasantly surprised with Falcone. I don't like Fish, but I have to admit that she delivers very well. Murderous Bullock was definitively an impasse, almost as bad Gordon's Barbara. Uhg... I forgot about the bad montage.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Supernatural? From what little I've seen it looks cheesy and not on the level of Breaking Bad, House of Cards, Game of Thrones, but I wouldn't know. Actually, of those you mention I've only seen Walking Dead a couple of times. Some other series that are good on different degrees include Dexter, House, Boston Legal and Monk. The last two have silly aspects, but I think they pull them well. Gotham has a loooooooong way to go...


OMG! Stop it already! I've been watching _Supernatural_ faithfully thanks to my friends turning me on to the show after they found out I was a _Vampire Diaries_ fan. _Supernatural_ is an excellent show and you've got to watch it for what it is and not for what it is not! 

Seriously, stop trying to compare shows like _Gotham_ or _Arrow_ to the over-hyped, blown out of proportion, over-worshipped so called _'adult'_ programming such as _Breaking Bad_, _'Dexter'_, _'Monk'_, and _House of Cards_; all of which I have watched and find to be incredibly damnable and lame. _The Walking Dead_ isn't horribly bad but it certainly isn't as good as AMC's _Hell on Wheels_ or CBS's freaking good _Person of Interest_. After season 3 _The Walking Dead_ just got awful to me. _Game of Thrones_ on the other hand is a whole different animal. It has the potential to be an excellent show but it keeps getting bogged down with trying to be a porn show, it gets bogged down with some of the most despicable characters like Joffrey, who, thank God, is finally DEAD! It also suffers from continually getting hung up on continually explicit scenes of female characters and feels more like a show that is trying to pander to a 'stuck in his mom's basement twisted virgin's sexual passions then being an actually good medieval historical fantasy. However, this last two season's of 'Thrones' were pretty dang good and Bran and Hodar's journey is the stuff that legends are made of. _Game of Thrones_ want's to be this decade's Lord of the Rings but the real fantasy gems on TV right now are CBS's _'Under The Dome'_ TNT's _'Falling Skies'_, _'Sleepy Hollow'_ and ABC's _Once Upon A Time_. But the books are even better than the show but then again, I've always been a bookworm. It's too bad Harry Potter and _The Sandman_ hasn't found a way into television yet.

Anyway, I don't want to get off topic from 'Gotham'. I just wish we could just discuss and enjoy _'Gotham'_ for the excellent entertainment it is instead of trying to tear it down and compare it to other shows that aren't nearly as good and are just OVER hyped.

----------


## Kid A

> (REALLY) BAD STUFF:
> Alfred's accent


Haha yeah I was at one point expecting Alfred to call Gordon a bloody wanker.  His accent was hilariously wrong for the character.

----------


## billee0918

> There's no reason why in the future she can't wind up as Pamela Isley


Yup, that's what I was going for. So silly to see complaints about something I guarantee will be addressed

----------


## Tupiaz

> Attitude and habits definitively keeps evolving through life, but that's not the case with temperament and personality. People are actually born geniuses,  have a given amount or empathy and certain temperament. ASPD, HPD and NPD are basically set in stone. The first mistake came with a silver age story in which Oswald was portrayed as a victim of bulling. He would definitively get mocked, and he might get bullied, but he was born a narcissistic psychopath, which means that he was likely a bigger bully himself. Again, Penguin Trimphant. Same with the Riddler, by adulthood his personality disorder should be already well laid. The only case that can be justifiable is the Joker, who might have gotten his disorder as another effect of the fictional chemicals.  Thinking "It is very likely that a person will abandon people and hate them if the person has been disrespected earlier" is a cliche of bad fiction and makes all the difference between this and any other Batman version.


Sure some people are born with better changes than others but people aren't born with empathy that is something you learn as a child. If not then you grow up being a sociopath/psychopath. People being narcissistic is also a trait that can develop over time especially since if you don't get enough attention or respect. People aren't just born with traits and is in fact a very debatable subject. to dismiss the importance of environment complete is something I have never seen.

----------


## JaggedFel

My Problem with Supernatural is that Sam and Dean are worse then comic book characters, I have lost count on how many times they have Died and come back.

----------


## The Overlord

> Ya, people write things off way too soon these days... you got TV series ending after 4 episodes because people aren't willing to give it time.
> 
> The characters aren't going to embody the entirety of what they are in one episode, the story isn't going to be like a movie where it all comes together in that one sitting, it's going to develop and build over multiple seasons.
> 
> I don't think Bullock is corrupt exactly, he's just a cop who's lost hope and faith in things, probably through experiences of criminals getting away, other cops being corrupt, and/or many arrests not really changing things all that drastically, etc... and that's the way a cop who's lost hope goes about things... within a greyer area.
> 
> I think that was established for that contrast between Bullock/Gordon, to where Bullock is going to find his faith and hope again through his relationship with Gordon, and if i'm correct in interpreting that aforementioned scene, that's the first big moment to that end... deep down hoping Gordon is what he seems to be, that he's not going to be like all the others because i think deep down that faith and hope of a good cop is there with Bullock, he just needs someone like Gordon to bring him back to that place once again.
> 
> That's going to be the most interesting aspect to the series for me, if that's the case... there was already a lot of it set up in that episode.


I'm sorry, but I have been spoiled by Cable. I have seen amazing pilots from shows like Game of Thrones, House of Cards and Breaking Bad, its hard to go back to having mediocre pilots on Network shows. Agents of Shield failed to entertain me within 5 episodes, when I have so much great TV I could be watching, why bother with something that has a medocure start, when other shows knock it out of the park right away. That is likely why the live action TV shows based on comic books I am looking  forward to is the street level Marvel shows on Netflix, Netflix shows have more interesting content and acting then any network show. Compare House of Cards to  any network show and you see a real difference.

----------


## Kid A

I enjoy House of Cards, but let's not pretend the show is anything more than thin high production camp.

----------


## cranger

> Somebody missed Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones and House of Cards. TV has been getting awesome.





> And Supernatural, Justified, Walking Dead, Orphan Black, Vikings, etc, etc.





> Seriously, stop trying to compare shows like _Gotham_ or _Arrow_ to the over-hyped, blown out of proportion, over-worshipped so called _'adult'_ programming such as _Breaking Bad_, _'Dexter'_, _'Monk'_, and _House of Cards_; all of which I have watched and find to be incredibly damnable and lame.





> I enjoy House of Cards, but let's not pretend the show is anything more than thin high production camp.


I know we are talking TV shows but I think the same conversation could be had about comics. Network vs Cable is almost like Big 2 vs Image. Honestly, I find it all a matter of taste. I tried watching a lot of cable shows but they just are not for me and they are just prone to bad dialogue and PIS as anything on FOX. My point was that I just was not going to bother letting little slips ruin what I otherwise found to be an enjoyable hour of television.

----------


## The Overlord

> I enjoy House of Cards, but let's not pretend the show is anything more than thin high production camp.


It is still better than anything on the networks. Also think because Netflix releases all their episodes at once,  means there is less of a chance of a weak of pilot, because the Netflix seasons feel like a giant movie, rather then a TV show. Again I have seen so many great pilots on cable, that I am going to be less favorable to a weaker pilot today, then I would have been in the past.

----------


## tabo61

Was Penguin and Fish having a affair or something?   The rubbing feet scene looked like a give away.

----------


## Vic Vega

> Was Penguin and Fish having a affair or something?   The rubbing feet scene looked like a give away.


Fish said Oswald was like a son to her ( just before she beat hell out of him) so I kinda hope not.

One of the things the show seems to be making a point of, is showing how Gotham got to the point
where it is messed up enough to need Batman.

Fish Mooney is crazier than Falcone (she is willing to kill 2 Cops) and now proto Pengy straight up murdered a dude for a sandwich.

And this was only the first episode.

----------


## Kid A

> It is still better than anything on the networks.


Person of Interest is a billion times more intelligent and insightful than House of Cards.

----------


## Beantownbrown

I hope they really focus on the mob. I'd like to see how they ran and controlled Gotham. I don't care about a crazy little Ivy or even a young Selina. I want to see Falcone and his goons. I loved Fish Mooney; I want to see more of her.

----------


## josai21

The thing I want to see most of and know that I'm probably going to see least of is the psychology of a young Bruce Wayne. How does this boy grow into the most insane badass of all time? I think the kid has the acting chops for it, but I wish we could have seen what lead up to him deciding to conquer fear as opposed to just seeing him on the roof. 

Also, I get the feeling that Alfred will be played as more of the permissive parent. Which is kinda necessary for Bruce to grow as he does...Jim being the more parental figure? I don't know. Hm...

----------


## Tupiaz

> Was Penguin and Fish having a affair or something?   The rubbing feet scene looked like a give away.


No, that was to established how was the master and was the employee, There was more sexual tension between Bullock and Fish than between Fish and Penguin.

----------


## Stormcrow

> Since they believe both Gordon and Bullock to be corrupt it make sense that they are self-righteous. You can expect to have the relationship Montoya and Bullock has been seen having simply because Bullock is so corrupt as he is. Bullock is no longer the cop who wants to solve crimes but sometimes goes out of bounce to solve the case. He is now a dirty cop how don't care about his jobs or victims. Therefore Montoya approach to him is also different.


I understand that, but I just foud the actors really unlikeable. Allen smiling like and idiot all the time and bitch Montoya (who might also look a little bit too old) didn't appeal to me at all. And not to be that guy, but they were nothing like the comic book characters.

That and "Ivy Pepper" kind of annoyed me quite a bit, but having a character named MARIO PEPPER and expect us to take the show seriously is just ridiculous.

----------


## Vidocq

I was wondering were the Nit Pick brigade was when the TV/Film thread was mostly positive.

----------


## NewMutant

This pilot had a bad case of the "pilots".  It has the concept but not the clearest direction.  I like the nod to Bruce, but I'd prefer if we not see him around that much.  Alfred seemed either terribly cast/portrayed or this take on Alfred is not a favorable one.  I found including Ivy completely unnecessary; she didn't do anything, they changed her name, and the pilot was overstuffed as it is.  We get it... its GOTHAM. Lets be a tad subtle.  

Making Renee and Barbra exes was an interesting twist, though I'm not sure where I stand on that but could be fun.  I wanted Gotham to be a bit darker and dirtier, the cinematography was good but it felt too sleek.  Poor Barbra Gordan will be have to suffer being a hot young housewife in their beautiful apartment with great city views... I mean come on.  haha.  This was mostly set up and no stand out performances.  It's Batverse, its Gotham, there is something THERE.  Many shows have had rougher pilots and even season and then I later got hooked.  

A Gotham Central meets Year One is what would really make this series take off for me.  Its possible and they are close.  We just need more focus on the GCPD before half ass them, villains, and Bruce.

----------


## doodledude

> Person of Interest is a billion times more intelligent and insightful than House of Cards.


 You are definitely smoking good weed.The english version was even better than the american version. :Big Grin:

----------


## Kid A

I have yet to see the British version, but I mean, House of Cards is the kind of show that everyone just seemed to have agreed is the next greatest show before it even came out.  It's great from an entertainment point of view about an amoral asshole rising to power and screwing people over, but that's it.  It's not remotely deep and doesn't really have any insights ( and doesn't try to be), and yet you have people in this thread claiming it's in this elite class of tv shows with Breaking Bad, The Wire, etc.

I mean yeah network television is mediocre on average, but it does reach highs in the case like Person of Interest, where they're weaving together this amazing science fiction thriller about AI that blurs into the real world, so yeah I don't think HoC is better than all network shows.  But as to where Gotham fits into all this, we'll just have to see.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Someone here just said ARROW is just as good as BREAKING BAD- I'm out of the discussion.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> OMG! Stop it already! I've been watching _Supernatural_ faithfully thanks to my friends turning me on to the show after they found out I was a _Vampire Diaries_ fan. _Supernatural_ is an excellent show and you've got to watch it for what it is and not for what it is not! 
> 
> Seriously, stop trying to compare shows like _Gotham_ or _Arrow_ to the over-hyped, blown out of proportion, over-worshipped so called _'adult'_ programming such as _Breaking Bad_, _'Dexter'_, _'Monk'_, and _House of Cards_; all of which I have watched and find to be incredibly damnable and lame. _The Walking Dead_ isn't horribly bad but it certainly isn't as good as AMC's _Hell on Wheels_ or CBS's freaking good _Person of Interest_. After season 3 _The Walking Dead_ just got awful to me. _Game of Thrones_ on the other hand is a whole different animal. It has the potential to be an excellent show but it keeps getting bogged down with trying to be a porn show, it gets bogged down with some of the most despicable characters like Joffrey, who, thank God, is finally DEAD! It also suffers from continually getting hung up on continually explicit scenes of female characters and feels more like a show that is trying to pander to a 'stuck in his mom's basement twisted virgin's sexual passions then being an actually good medieval historical fantasy. However, this last two season's of 'Thrones' were pretty dang good and Bran and Hodar's journey is the stuff that legends are made of. _Game of Thrones_ want's to be this decade's Lord of the Rings but the real fantasy gems on TV right now are CBS's _'Under The Dome'_ TNT's _'Falling Skies'_, _'Sleepy Hollow'_ and ABC's _Once Upon A Time_. But the books are even better than the show but then again, I've always been a bookworm. It's too bad Harry Potter and _The Sandman_ hasn't found a way into television yet.
> 
> Anyway, I don't want to get off topic from 'Gotham'. I just wish we could just discuss and enjoy _'Gotham'_ for the excellent entertainment it is instead of trying to tear it down and compare it to other shows that aren't nearly as good and are just OVER hyped.


OMG! I didn't even start, I said that it looks cheesy, not that it was, because I wouldn't know.
The fame of those shown is not blown out of proportion, generally ranking better for people with enough reference is not the same as being some sort of quintessential series. They are not really a type of show (House, Monk and Boston Legal are certainly not the same kind of animal as GOT, which is also different from Breaking Bad or House of Cards) and they are not perfect, they are just some random list of shows that are easily better than of Gotham, which has big problems when it comes to dialog and direction in general. I wouldn't mention shows that are just a little better because debating close shades of gray is useless (I'd watch the X-files, Colombo, Magnum, Quantum Leap, Poirot and even Desperate Housewives any day over that, but that's just me). I don't watch any of the shows you brought up, but they might as well be among the best. One thing that I think you misconstrued is that I'm somehow claiming that shows need to be "adult" or show nudity to be good, but read the list again, House and Boston Legal and specially monk are not adult in that sense. Again, those are some I know to be easily better than what we have seen from Gotham. From the same writer, I enjoy the Mentalist a bit better, but I've only watched a handful of episodes. 

Now. You know Gotham is bad. You have all the elements, you are just resisting to put them together. You said the other shows are just "over hyped"... More hyped than a show about Batman? Gotham had a head start by virtue of the franchise but it blew is by not delivering which is the reason you don't perceive it as hyped or praised so far. If I didn't know the characters, I don't think the story was that bad, the problem were the lines and the direction, which contrasts to strongly with the high aim. And that makes quite a difference.




> I enjoy House of Cards, but let's not pretend the show is anything more than thin high production camp.


I'm not sure what your concept of camp is, but it's not a bad thing on its own. I don't think HOC has much greater production values than Gotham, the later only lacks certain key people to do a proper execution. The plot was fine, the teleplay was corny and the direction sucked.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Introducing way too many characters and easter eggs, and it's only been one episode. Would have preferred a tighter cast with a bigger build up, and maybe some easter eggs and nods to the comics along the way. This just went too far.

----------


## doodledude

> Someone here just said ARROW is just as good as BREAKING BAD- I'm out of the discussion.


I love Arrow but Breaking Bad is just on another level.It's like comparing the Sopranos to Agents of Sheild.Different genres and different levels in tone.Some writing is just more adult and cerebral.Both can be entertaining though.And I would like to add Boardwalk Empire to great shows on right now though many just don't get it. :Wink:

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Sure some people are born with better changes than others but people aren't born with empathy that is something you learn as a child. If not then you grow up being a sociopath/psychopath. People being narcissistic is also a trait that can develop over time especially since if you don't get enough attention or respect. People aren't just born with traits and is in fact a very debatable subject. to dismiss the importance of environment complete is something I have never seen.


Enviroinment is important, but ASPD and NPD just shows up and there is no effective cure. Look it up. 

Hell, even brain damage plays a more important role than environment when it comes to that type of disorders (no, seriously). 

And while you are at it, check "temperament", the whole point of the concept is that it's all genetics. If you are born choleric, that's it. You can do all the yoga you want.  

So, no. A person can't go from a melancholic rat to a choleric Cartman-type with NPD, much less as an adult. However, confidence is something that a person can gain with experience, considering that the Gotham version already lacks empathy and is quite cunning, the result after some seasons might be close to characterization in Pain and Prejudice.

----------


## SXVA

> I'm sorry, but I have been spoiled by Cable. I have seen amazing pilots from shows like Game of Thrones, House of Cards and Breaking Bad, its hard to go back to having mediocre pilots on Network shows. Agents of Shield failed to entertain me within 5 episodes, when I have so much great TV I could be watching, why bother with something that has a medocure start, when other shows knock it out of the park right away. That is likely why the live action TV shows based on comic books I am looking  forward to is the street level Marvel shows on Netflix, Netflix shows have more interesting content and acting then any network show. Compare House of Cards to  any network show and you see a real difference.


You can't really compare and expect other TV series to be like Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad, they're like the best of the best to where it's very difficult to find that magic in everything... If that's the standard someone is putting on every TV show then they're going to be disappointed way more times than not.... also, they're on channels that have more freedom to where the creators can do more with it. 

It's all relative, i don't really compare things... i simply embrace each one and enjoy it for what it is. I know FOX isn't going to usually match up with HBO because of restrictions that HBO doesn't have to deal with, and that's just the way it is currently... i'd like them to have more freedom in creativity but such is life. 

All i know is that i enjoy most TV series and movies, and i'd prefer to be that way instead of being all negative and unhappy, and tearing down stuff... i'm happy that i can find enjoyment in all of these wonderful artistic creations that we're lucky to have.

I've seen House of Cards and thought it was good, honestly i don't see it's first few episodes being that much greater than how i saw Gotham, however. They're both enjoyable in their own ways imo.

I do see your point in time restrictions though, sometimes you might not be able to stick with something because there's other stuff you still gotta check out, that's fair enough. I don't think that's the same as writing it off, what i meant by that is someone saying it sucks after a couple episode, and wanting it to be cancelled and never watching it again based on that perspective that it's terrible and sucks after a couple episodes, etc.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Fish said Oswald was like a son to her ( just before she beat hell out of him) so I kinda hope not.
> 
> One of the things the show seems to be making a point of, is showing how Gotham got to the point
> where it is messed up enough to need Batman.
> 
> Fish Mooney is crazier than Falcone (she is willing to kill 2 Cops) and now proto Pengy straight up murdered a dude for a sandwich.
> 
> And this was only the first episode.


Yeah, definitely. The first episode certainly felt like something out of a dark episode of _Star Wars The Clone Wars_ season 5 with all the fast paced, hard hitting insanity of the nefarious acts committed by the villainous personalities in the latter half of the _'Gotham'_ pilot episode. Continuing with Star Wars analogy, I certainly find Fish Mooney to be the _'Darth Maul'_ of sorts in this early exposition of Gotham City. I've said it before and I'm certainly going to say it again; Jada Pinkett Smith stole the show and everything else with her fiery performance. Fish Mooney really was the dark horse of the pilot and Robin Taylor's performance as Penguin was stellar and riveting. Nonetheless, the child stars really deserve a standing ovation because Camren Bicondova and David Mazouz really carried the weight and essence of future brooding Bruce Wayne and the nine feline of Catwoman in a way that enriched the pilot episode in a way that was beyond memorable. 

The odd man out was certainly Sean Pertwee's untouchable interpretation of Alfred. I'm not one of the haters of this variation of Alfred because _'Beware The Batman's'_ Alfred grew on me as I am sure '_Gotham's_' will also but I certainly was left with a 'What the heck' response at the close of the pilot because that Alfred certainly isn't in the pages of any DC Batman comic I've read so far.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Bullock and Gordon are both basically slaves to the corrupt system of gotham now that they "killed" Penguin. In year one it took Batman to break Gordon out of that system and he wasn't even a rookie but a transferred cop. Here we see Gordon as the naive rookie under a system that really is too big for him.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Enviroinment is important, but ASPD and NPD just shows up and there is no effective cure. Look it up. 
> 
> Hell, even brain damage plays a more important role than environment when it comes to that type of disorders (no, seriously). 
> 
> And while you are at it, check "temperament", the whole point of the concept is that it's all genetics. If you are born choleric, that's it. You can do all the yoga you want.  
> 
> So, no. A person can't go from a melancholic rat to a choleric Cartman-type with NPD, much less as an adult. However, confidence is something that a person can gain with experience, considering that the Gotham version already lacks empathy and is quite cunning, the result after some seasons might be close to characterization in Pain and Prejudice.


It is not all genetics but has also to do with the environment. You can't cure ASPD with drugs and you use psychotherapy as a treatment. 

"ASPD, and the closely related diagnosis of psychopathy, seem to be products of a strong genetic disposition interacting with a variety of environmental contributions."

----------


## nightrider

The reviews are in and wow. 

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The reviews are in and wow. 
> 
> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/


Just about how I feel about it, too. If the ratings are also good, the show will have a very nice run.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Bit late to the party but wow! that episodes was Awesome! I was a bit sceptical going in but all that has gone away now, thoroughly enjoyed this! Them 50 mins flew by!

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> It is not all genetics but has also to do with the environment. You can't cure ASPD with drugs and you use psychotherapy as a treatment. 
> 
> "ASPD, and the closely related diagnosis of psychopathy, seem to be products of a strong genetic disposition interacting with a variety of environmental contributions."


I'm not sure how your first link supports the that "it's not all genetics", but I can grant you that it isn't. In that, for instance, among people with no empathy, at least those with good perception, can be righteous if they are raised to believe that it's an effective way of living. I agree that ASPD can't be cured with drugs (not that we were talking about them), but as even your own link recognizes, they are used to help. I agree that there is treatment, and that it necessary, but again, check your own link, because it isn't promising anything (bacause it can't be done). You can't cure ASPD. Period.   

Enviroinment plays a role, but it works on given characteristics. With a given temperament and potential for empathy, a subject might behave in different ways. You can have a choleric temperament and act like the Scarface dummy or like Dan Turpin (Raphael from TMNT is another example). 

In any case, remember that we're talking about Gotham's Penguin. So I repeat, he can gain confidence and wiser habits, but he can't change his temperament.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I'm not sure how your first link supports the that "it's not all genetics", but I can grant you that it isn't. In that, for instance, among people with no empathy, at least those with good perception, can be righteous if they are raised to believe that it's an effective way of living. I agree that ASPD can't be cured with drugs (not that we were talking about them), but as even your own link recognizes, they are used to help. I agree that there is treatment, and that it necessary, but again, check your own link, because it isn't promising anything (bacause it can't be done). You can't cure ASPD. Period.   
> 
> Enviroinment plays a role, but it works on given characteristics. With a given temperament and potential for empathy, a subject might behave in different ways. You can have a choleric temperament and act like the Scarface dummy or like Dan Turpin (Raphael from TMNT is another example). 
> 
> In any case, remember that we're talking about Gotham's Penguin. So I repeat, he can gain confidence and wiser habits, but he can't change his temperament.


Cured? No, but can people live to learn better life and sure his temperament can change man get less temperament as they get older and wiser and also have less testosterone. As the links also says being in certain environments it can change. So let say that the Penguin was put outside organised crime or a better mental institution than Arkham he could learn to control his temperament. People aren't robots that are just programmed and can't learn new ways of living as the become older.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Cured? No, but can people live to learn better life and sure his temperament can change man get less temperament as they get older and wiser and also have less testosterone. As the links also says being in certain environments it can change. So let say that the Penguin was put outside organised crime or a better mental institution than Arkham he could learn to control his temperament. People aren't robots that are just programmed and can't learn new ways of living as the become older.


You mostly got it right. However, temperament doesn't mean being moody. There are different classifications, but they often agree on 4 or 5 types of archetypal temperaments (think ninja turtles). People are usually born with a predominant one and one or two secondary ones. And given an archetype, a person can have mostly the flaws, the virtues or some point in the middle. People can change their temperament, but that's usually something that happens in adolescence due to biological factors. Personality (also genetic) is said to take over temperament. What a person can manage is habits, views. 

When it comes to disorders, they can be dealt with, but they are always there. They might show up since childhood, but they are set in early adulthood.  

What people can do, is break paradigms of behavior by training. Take animals as vague reference. If you take a dog to a trainer, he might get discipline and good habits, but the personality and the level of energy remains. Same with military training. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is one of the most serious and effective ways to deal with most of the personality problems. The big problem with some disorders like ASPD, NPD or HPD is that subjects usually don't see the use in changing, and they tend to cheat.     

Now, the Penguin usually has many virtues associated with Extroverted, Task-Oriented temperament (choleric or "bossy"), such as charisma and diligence, but has the flaws in exaggerated proportions: his ego is all over the place and has virtually no empathy, to the point that he is also narcissistic (and sometimes portrayed as histrionic). However, we are talking about his portrayal in Gotham, where he is also task-oriented, but introverted (melancholic), and you were saying that he can switch to be more like the comics. No he can't. What he can do is become a bit more confident with experience and resources. People like that are more reactive than proactive. People like Burgess, DeVito or North's Penguin (or Eric Cartman) are 100% proactive. The Gotham version, has some natural drive, like a pilot, if you will, but his confidence depends on how people see him, what he knows he can do and the resources he has. This guy isn't narcissistic or histrionic, he is mostly a power-hungry "weasel" type. I can't tell, but he probably has some form of ASPD or something close to that.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> You mostly got it right. However, temperament doesn't mean being moody. There are different classifications, but they often agree on 4 or 5 types of archetypal temperaments (think ninja turtles). People are usually born with a predominant one and one or two secondary ones. And given an archetype, a person can have mostly the flaws, the virtues or some point in the middle. People can change their temperament, but that's usually something that happens in adolescence due to biological factors. Personality (also genetic) is said to take over temperament. What a person can manage is habits, views. 
> 
> When it comes to disorders, they can be dealt with, but they are always there. They might show up since childhood, but they are set in early adulthood.  
> 
> What people can do, is break paradigms of behavior by training. Take animals as vague reference. If you take a dog to a trainer, he might get discipline and good habits, but the personality and the level of energy remains. Same with military training. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is one of the most serious and effective ways to deal with most of the personality problems. The big problem with some disorders like ASPD, NPD or HPD is that subjects usually don't see the use in changing, and they tend to cheat.     
> 
> Now, the Penguin usually has many virtues associated with Extroverted, Task-Oriented temperament (choleric or "bossy"), such as charisma and diligence, but has the flaws in exaggerated proportions: his ego is all over the place and has virtually no empathy, to the point that he is also narcissistic (and sometimes portrayed as histrionic). However, we are talking about his portrayal in Gotham, where he is also task-oriented, but introverted (melancholic), and you were saying that he can switch to be more like the comics. No he can't. What he can do is become a bit more confident with experience and resources. People like that are more reactive than proactive. People like Burgess, DeVito or North's Penguin (or Eric Cartman) are 100% proactive. The Gotham version, has some natural drive, like a pilot, if you will, but his confidence depends on how people see him, what he knows he can do and the resources he has. This guy isn't narcissistic or histrionic, he is mostly a power-hungry "weasel" type. I can't tell, but he probably has some form of ASPD or something close to that.


I wouldn't get set on such final judgements as too what he might or might not be like in going forward. Even if the writer of this episode has as clear views on th subject as you do, the writer of next episode might not. At the end of the day, he is the Prnguin, he will be a succesful mob boss in his own right, and he'll probably show capacity for restraint in dealing with nosy cops when the time comes.

----------


## ABH

I liked it.

The only character that annoyed me was Selina popping up all over, crouching and climbing on rooftops and fences. I get what they are going for, but I didn't like that she witnessed the murder of the Waynes.

The Kean/Montoya thing was unexpected, but very interesting.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

I agree with many that there was an overabundance of cameo appearances. What typically made me wary of the show's "origins" concept was that there would be a temptation for the writers to try and tie in everything. I initially hated the "corrupt" Bullock, but did remind myself that the original character version was a fully corrupt patsy who later reformed, so I imagine Jim will convert him. (Gordon also needs the glasses and 'stach stat!)

Even if things are successful, this show is going to have the same problems of Superboy/Smallville. The popular villains are what draw the general public, because they are known, but very few of them actually work in the time period of Gotham-pre-Batman.

The result we have is a mash-up of Year One and Gotham Central with a side of stuff that won't fit together. 

Based on the pilot alone, I'd say they would have done great things if they ran with an adaptation/homage of just Gotham Central. Since they seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, the whole "regular cops dealing with street level crime, occasionally crossing paths with popular villains, cameo Batman appearances" would have fit the bill perfectly. However, with Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s less than stellar receiving, I guess that would have been a difficult thing to pitch.

It was entertaining enough, but I don't expect it to have long legs. Alternatively, if it does have long legs, it's going to be with the casual viewer/fan and not the more invested bat fans because there is only going to be so much they can shoehorn into the time period without seriously bloating the origins.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I wouldn't get set on such final judgements as too what he might or might not be like in going forward. Even if the writer of this episode has as clear views on th subject as you do, the writer of next episode might not. At the end of the day, he is the Prnguin, he will be a succesful mob boss in his own right, and he'll probably show capacity for restraint in dealing with nosy cops when the time comes.


That's true. This is fiction not real life. While a realistic Penguin wouldn't be able to change from melancholic to choleric, Gothams version can get flanderized if the writers wanted. In BTAS, Harley Quinn has 3 different profiles. In Laughing Fish, Joker's Favor and The Man Who Killed Batman she is some sort of climber type of psychopath, kind of like a conquering groupie with her own agenda, like Claire Underwood from House of Cards. If you notice, she is the one in charge of executing the complicated parts of the Joker's plots and she is in perfect tune with his showmanship. The team took again that line in STAS with Mercy Graves, who kept it until her JLU episodes. In Harley and Ivy, she is a codependent girlfriend, she can still plan ahead but she has a weaker confidence despite showing more capability of success than Ivy or even the Joker. This is the version that was used in No Man's Land when she was introduced as well as her first series. Finally, in Harlequinade, Harley's Holiday, Beware the Creeper, Mad Love and the rest of her appearances she has full blown HPD. She is completely deluded about the Joker and Batman, she can't plan ahead and all she does is improvise (a lot like the Penguin in Birds of a Feather). This final version changes the couple dynamic with the Joker. In the first one you have two skilled psychopaths teaming up, in the second, the Joker is abusing her because of her talent, and in the third, her lack of vision becomes a liability that angers him as much as her habit of stealing the show with her spontaneous jokes and he is basically using her for sex and her improvisational skills... So there, it's not the ideal way to go, but you're right, portrayals change.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I agree with many that there was an overabundance of cameo appearances. What typically made me wary of the show's "origins" concept was that there would be a temptation for the writers to try and tie in everything. I initially hated the "corrupt" Bullock, but did remind myself that the original character version was a fully corrupt patsy who later reformed, so I imagine Jim will convert him. (Gordon also needs the glasses and 'stach stat!)
> 
> Even if things are successful, this show is going to have the same problems of Superboy/Smallville. The popular villains are what draw the general public, because they are known, but very few of them actually work in the time period of Gotham-pre-Batman.
> 
> The result we have is a mash-up of Year One and Gotham Central with a side of stuff that won't fit together. 
> 
> Based on the pilot alone, I'd say they would have done great things if they ran with an adaptation/homage of just Gotham Central. Since they seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, the whole "regular cops dealing with street level crime, occasionally crossing paths with popular villains, cameo Batman appearances" would have fit the bill perfectly. However, with Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s less than stellar receiving, I guess that would have been a difficult thing to pitch.
> 
> It was entertaining enough, but I don't expect it to have long legs. Alternatively, if it does have long legs, it's going to be with the casual viewer/fan and not the more invested bat fans because there is only going to be so much they can shoehorn into the time period without seriously bloating the origins.


I hope they embrace that it doesn't just have to be a cop show, given that they've got several main characters in their rooster not with the GCPD.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> ... However, with Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s less than stellar receiving, I guess that would have been a difficult thing to pitch...


Apparently, you are unaware of the big fanbase Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D has over on social media. People on Twitter and Facebook are in love with the show and really like it. I can't give an opinion because I haven't watched a single episode of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D so far but the way it trended on Twitter last night as one of the top shows in America really surprised me and from folks comments the show seems to be pretty entertaining.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

I admit I'm out of touch on S.H.I.E.L.D. The impression I had was it started with great promise and steadily dropped viewers as it went on, which seems to be the case looking at the trend of viewership:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of....E2.80.9314.29

However, that's still not taking the big picture into consideration, where it is enjoying high ranking among men and young adults against the competition.

If that's the case, I'm even more convinced that they should have pitched and run with Gotham Central.

----------


## The Red Monk

> Originally Posted by CocktailXYZ
> 
> 
> ... However, with Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s less than stellar receiving, I guess that would have been a difficult thing to pitch...
> 
> 
> Apparently, you are unaware of the big fanbase Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D has over on social media. People on Twitter and Facebook are in love with the show and really like it. I can't give an opinion because I haven't watched a single episode of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D so far but the way it trended on Twitter last night as one of the top shows in America really surprised me and from folks comments the show seems to be pretty entertaining.


Social media isn't really that good an indicator of popularity. A minority of vocal fangirls and fanboys can easily come off as a tsunami, when they're really a small wave.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Now, the Penguin usually has many virtues associated with Extroverted, Task-Oriented temperament (choleric or "bossy"), such as charisma and diligence, but has the flaws in exaggerated proportions: his ego is all over the place and has virtually no empathy, to the point that he is also narcissistic (and sometimes portrayed as histrionic). However, we are talking about his portrayal in Gotham, where he is also task-oriented, but introverted (melancholic), and you were saying that he can switch to be more like the comics. No he can't. What he can do is become a bit more confident with experience and resources. People like that are more reactive than proactive. People like Burgess, DeVito or North's Penguin (or Eric Cartman) are 100% proactive. The Gotham version, has some natural drive, like a pilot, if you will, but his confidence depends on how people see him, what he knows he can do and the resources he has. This guy isn't narcissistic or histrionic, he is mostly a power-hungry "weasel" type. I can't tell, but he probably has some form of ASPD or something close to that.


The reason that the Penguin is a weasel is because he isn't a crime boss at the moment. He needs to do something to get that power and he seems willing to do a lot. It is active to go talk to the police it is also a way of using information. It is much more elegant to let the police take actions than it is that he him self killed Fish which could give him some problems. By leading the police do the work he could have climbed the later much more smoothy. 




> Social media isn't really that good an indicator of popularity. A minority of vocal fangirls and fanboys can easily come off as a tsunami, when they're really a small wave.


It has grown in popularity after the first episodes which wasn't that well received. 




> You mostly got it right. However, temperament doesn't mean being moody. There are different classifications, but they often agree on 4 or 5 types of archetypal temperaments (think ninja turtles). People are usually born with a predominant one and one or two secondary ones. And given an archetype, a person can have mostly the flaws, the virtues or some point in the middle. People can change their temperament, but that's usually something that happens in adolescence due to biological factors. Personality (also genetic) is said to take over temperament. What a person can manage is habits, views.


Or it is obtain through childhood and not born with. Your views is way to fix on that people are born with every set of their character when that is not the case.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I admit I'm out of touch on S.H.I.E.L.D. The impression I had was it started with great promise and steadily dropped viewers as it went on,


What's your definition of "promise"? I like SHIELD but their pilot was terrible (so cheesey). It did huge numbers with the Marvel name coming off Avengers and the fact that is premiered a week before anything came on the air so it had zero competition. The series itself got better as it went along but it's a tough sell when fans have to say "no, it's actually good now" LOL but it seems to be holding onto is core audience and they gave it a better timeslot. 

Gotham on the other had debuted opposite strong competition, a whole hour of BBT and the new coaches on The Voice, and held it's own and got good reviews. All shows improve over their pilot so this should be a good time.




> I'm even more convinced that they should have pitched and run with Gotham Central.


Someone in another thread made this comment: Gotham Central wasn't even popular as a comic- why would pitch a TV series about a comic that was cancelled?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Coal Tiger

> Someone in another thread made this comment: Gotham Central wasn't even popular as a comic- why would pitch a TV series about a comic that was cancelled?


Because what's popular as a comic has literally nothing to do with the potential popularity of something in another medium, as seen by Blade of all characters getting 3 movies and Guardians of the Galaxy being the most successful movie of the summer in the US.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Someone in another thread made this comment: Gotham Central wasn't even popular as a comic- why would pitch a TV series about a comic that was cancelled?


It was however very critical acclaimed and the trades was selling very well and that was why it was kept in print.




> Because what's popular as a comic has literally nothing to do with the potential popularity of something in another medium, as seen by Blade of all characters getting 3 movies and Guardians of the Galaxy being the most successful movie of the summer in the US.


The GA show would be another example. The show was popular even though the comics wasn't selling at the time and didn't change until you got a new writer on it. The show and the comics popularity was also due to different take on the character.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> The reason that the Penguin is a weasel is because he isn't a crime boss at the moment. He needs to do something to get that power and he seems willing to do a lot. It is active to go talk to the police it is also a way of using information. It is much more elegant to let the police take actions than it is that he him self killed Fish which could give him some problems. By leading the police do the work he could have climbed the later much more smoothy. 
> 
> 
> 
> It has grown in popularity after the first episodes which wasn't that well received. 
> 
> 
> 
> Or it is obtain through childhood and not born with. Your views is way to fix on that people are born with every set of their character when that is not the case.


I think I mislead you, by weasel I meant to describe his personality, not the fact that he is ratting (although it comes into play). Any version of the Penguin would rat in that type of situation, only this one has no guts. Normally he faces people with an attitude of superiority complex, and he is able to charm the other people when he needs them (most people with short temper can do this). 
I wouldn't call ratting elegant, since there's no dignity, but it's certainly convenient and simple for a thug in his place.

Read the full comment you are quoting. You'll notice that your summary of my views doesn't fit them, as I'm distinguishing what can be changed by environment and therapy (and there _are_ aspects that can be changed) from the parts that can't. There's no use in confusing them. Temperament develops thought childhood and adolescence, but it's not changed by experiences (including therapy) if that's what you tried to say. However, other behavioral aspects do change because of environment, experience and training. This is the reason therapy is real and can accomplish a number of realistic goals. Read a little about temperament to see what I mean.

I know it's very idealistic to think that anyone can become anything, but that's not how it works. Some aspects can be fixed and influenced, some can't, just like your body shape (you can get a smaller belly, but you can't get a smaller nose).

----------


## The Red Monk

> I know it's very idealistic to think that anyone can become anything, but that's not how it works. Some aspects can be fixed and influenced, some can't, just like your body shape (you can get a smaller belly, *but you can't get a smaller nose*).


You should sample the delights of plastic surgery someday.  :Cool:

----------


## Chickfighter

My take is that television has yet another dreary cop show (because it didn't have enough of those). The performances seemed fine and it has the tease that eventually someday the audience will get to see Bruce Wayne become Batman but in the meantime it's just dirty cops and dirtier mobsters. So it may do fine but not be my thing like so much of television.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I think I mislead you, by weasel I meant to describe his personality, not the fact that he is ratting (although it comes into play). Any version of the Penguin would rat in that type of situation, only this one has no guts. Normally he faces people with an attitude of superiority complex, and he is able to charm the other people when he needs them (most people with short temper can do this). 
> I wouldn't call ratting elegant, since there's no dignity, but it's certainly convenient and simple for a thug in his place.


Read the full comment you are quoting. You'll notice that your summary of my views doesn't fit them, as I'm distinguishing what can be changed by environment and therapy (and there _are_ aspects that can be changed) from the parts that can't. There's no use in confusing them. Temperament develops thought childhood and adolescence, but it's not changed by experiences (including therapy) if that's what you tried to say. However, other behavioral aspects do change because of environment, experience and training. This is the reason therapy is real and can accomplish a number of realistic goals. Read a little about temperament to see what I mean.

I understood that weasel was how his personality is, I just see the ratting as a part of being a weasel. The reason why I said it was elegant was because he him self ratted. He didn't make another person do it or talk so it would be a well know story that Fish set Mario up. He went straight for the police.




> Read the full comment you are quoting. You'll notice that your summary of my views doesn't fit them, as I'm distinguishing what can be changed by environment and therapy (and there _are_ aspects that can be changed) from the parts that can't. There's no use in confusing them. Temperament develops thought childhood and adolescence, but it's not changed by experiences (including therapy) if that's what you tried to say. However, other behavioral aspects do change because of environment, experience and training. This is the reason therapy is real and can accomplish a number of realistic goals. Read a little about temperament to see what I mean.


First of all the Penguin is showing temperament he is beating a guy of pure fun. It is not so much that I haven't read about that I don't agree with it. For instance the use of cognitive therapy. Being in a violent environment can also make your temperament increase. 




> I know it's very idealistic to think that anyone can become anything, but that's not how it works. Some aspects can be fixed and influenced, some can't, just like your body shape (you can get a smaller belly, but you can't get a smaller nose).


It is not so much that I have an idealistic world view that you have a deterministic one.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

> Gotham Central wasn't even popular as a comic- why would pitch a TV series about a comic that was cancelled?


Because that's essentially what they've created with _Gotham_ except that they've altered the timeline in order to draw audiences with the "OMGWeGetToSeeTheOriginsOfBatmanGordonPenguinJoker  CatwomanRiddlerAnyoneElseWeShoehornIn". If they are going to do street-level cops in Gotham ala Central or Streets of Gotham, stick to that plan and do it, don't throw everything into the mixing pot.

----------


## PretenderNX01

But this was the plan...

----------


## Nite-Wing

New Trailer for ep 2
and now we have edgy self harm borderline cutter babby bruce wayne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e161f8bB0YU
I like what they are doing with Penguin,very much like the joker and less like a bumbling devito

----------


## Maxpower00044

So, this thread wants me to believe Gotham and Arrow (shows that are enjoyable) are better than GoT, Breaking Bad, True Detective, etc.?





Hahahhahahahahahh. No.

----------


## Kid A

To be fair, the idea that a softcore soap opera like GoT is on the level of Breaking Bad and True Detective is also laughable.

----------


## Billy Batson

> To be fair, the idea that a softcore soap opera like GoT is on the level of Breaking Bad and True Detective is also laughable.


*It seems to be a very common opinion, though.
*

----------


## Maxpower00044

> To be fair, the idea that a softcore soap opera like GoT is on the level of Breaking Bad and True Detective is also laughable.


I don't like it better than either of them, but I still think it's one of the best shows on TV, and maybe has the most "oh shit" moments on TV.

Did you really laugh? Because if you did, you should've wrote "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH". Hahahah

----------


## Ultra Magnotron

> Looks interesting, but . . . Gordon needs his 'stache.


So... if you say Gordon needs his 'stache because of Year One, just keep in mind that Year One happened while Bruce Wayne was an adult. He'll get his 'stache when it's time to get it. Not a moment before.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> So... if you say Gordon needs his 'stache because of Year One, just keep in mind that Year One happened while Bruce Wayne was an adult. He'll get his 'stache when it's time to get it. Not a moment before.


It was time to get it in the pilot.

----------


## Vil_Dee

It was all'ight.  Watchable.  Some odd slightly annoying choices (why did they have to invent a whole new character, Fish Mooney? Why not a proto Black Mask or something. . .the wtf Gordon/Babs/Montoya thing. . .).  Gordon was serviceable.  Bullock was more sleezy than slobby (which should be the other way around).  Falcone wasn't Falconey enough.  Barbara was too Barbie-ish.  Alfred was too Cocknie'ish.  Pengy was strangely awesome despite being nothing like the actual Penguin.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> You should sample the delights of plastic surgery someday.


Actually, the analogy still works. Head injury is said to affect in some cases. 




> I understood that weasel was how his personality is, I just see the ratting as a part of being a weasel. The reason why I said it was elegant was because he him self ratted. He didn't make another person do it or talk so it would be a well know story that Fish set Mario up. He went straight for the police.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all the Penguin is showing temperament he is beating a guy of pure fun. It is not so much that I haven't read about that I don't agree with it. For instance the use of cognitive therapy. Being in a violent environment can also make your temperament increase. 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not so much that I have an idealistic world view that you have a deterministic one.


I think we can agree that ratting is not beneath any popular version of the Penguin. 

I think I got your use of "elegant", something like "elegant in its simplicity" and how he would destroy his enemy (Fish) without wasting energy or gaining retaliation from her. I'd use elegant in the same sense, as long as it's not weasely. For me, a weasel act can't be elegant. (Yes, now I'm using weasel as rat).

You are clearly confusing the term temperament with temper. They are related but not the same. By killing the man, the Penguin showed temper, not temperament. Being sadistic (killing a man out of joy) is not limited to people with "choleric" (task-oriented, introverted) temperament. This Gotham Penguin is melancholic (task-oriented, introverted), and melancholic people are vindictive. They are passive and avoid risk, but they can certainly "show temper" once they blow up. Choleric people are like pit-bulls in that they rarely act like cowards, which is a common thing for people with melancholic tendencies. Think of Meredith, North, DeVito, Kenny or even early Williams. They would boil up the second they realize Fish knows what's going on. Killing out of joy isn't beneath any temperament per se, the only exception might be those that are socially-oriented introverts, who'd only do it out of social pressure if they lack the ethics. 

It confuses me that you'd disagree with cognitive behavioral therapy... which is about what you can change without drugs. It's basically accelerating exponentially what environment can do for you and [unlike psychoanalysis therapy] is said to be the most helpful resource in treating several conditions.

I have a deterministic world view... So do you. The difference seems to be that I'm more inclined to (compulsively) put the dot in every "i" by distinguishing between what can be determined by biological means or by the environment. I'm relying on what tried and tested references can support. I ignore where you come from, but it's certainly not psychology. I do hope we reach a point in which environment means such as therapy can make personality disorders disappear (not merely containing them) but we are not there yet. We might be kind of getting there, but not yet. And that's with heavy intervention, "not school of street changed a task-oriented introvert to a socially-oriented extrovert" fantasy. You can agree that part of who we are is nature and part nurture, temperament is the part that has been determined to be nature, if you will. I'm sure the misunderstanding will end once you research a bit on temperament, its origins and some classifications. It won't take long and you'll probably enjoy it, since you seem so interested in what makes a person who he is. Sorry about the tone, I tried to think of a better way, but that's as good as I can do for now (I do take tips).




> It was all'ight.  Watchable.  Some odd slightly annoying choices (why did they have to invent a whole new character, Fish Mooney? Why not a proto Black Mask or something. . .the wtf Gordon/Babs/Montoya thing. . .).  Gordon was serviceable.  Bullock was more sleezy than slobby (which should be the other way around).  Falcone wasn't Falconey enough.  Barbara was too Barbie-ish.  Alfred was too Cocknie'ish.  Pengy was strangely awesome despite being nothing like the actual Penguin.


I think a black female is a good idea there. They are probably planning to kill her off at some point, so she had to be disposable. However, I'd recycle the name. If not Silk Spider, Tyger Moth, Nocturna, Black Widow, Siren or something of the sort, I think she could have a random name and be called "the Catwoman". Why? That would be a reference to Eartha Kitt, the way catwoman used to operate decades ago (when she used to have henchmen), and the ties with Falcone. This would obviously mean that she'd die at some point and Selina would get the name.  The only beef fans might have with it would be that Selina wouldn't be the first one, but I think it's cool enough to make up for it.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think a black female is a good idea there. They are probably planning to kill her off at some point, so she had to be disposable.


If she wasn't a name actress, maybe, but I figure Jada Pinkett Smith will have the role for quite a while as long as she doesn't go the prima donna route.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I'd say the stache is more iconic for Gordon than it is for Green Arrow's beard

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'd say the stache is more iconic for Gordon than it is for Green Arrow's beard


Since Jim has had mustache from the start (unlike Ollie's beard), I agree.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Actually, the analogy still works. Head injury is said to affect in some cases. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we can agree that ratting is not beneath any popular version of the Penguin. 
> 
> I think I got your use of "elegant", something like "elegant in its simplicity" and how he would destroy his enemy (Fish) without wasting energy or gaining retaliation from her. I'd use elegant in the same sense, as long as it's not weasely. For me, a weasel act can't be elegant. (Yes, now I'm using weasel as rat).
> 
> You are clearly confusing the term temperament with temper. They are related but not the same. By killing the man, the Penguin showed temper, not temperament. Being sadistic (killing a man out of joy) is not limited to people with "choleric" (task-oriented, introverted) temperament. This Gotham Penguin is melancholic (task-oriented, introverted), and melancholic people are vindictive. They are passive and avoid risk, but they can certainly "show temper" once they blow up. Choleric people are like pit-bulls in that they rarely act like cowards, which is a common thing for people with melancholic tendencies. Think of Meredith, North, DeVito, Kenny or even early Williams. They would boil up the second they realize Fish knows what's going on. Killing out of joy isn't beneath any temperament per se, the only exception might be those that are socially-oriented introverts, who'd only do it out of social pressure if they lack the ethics. 
> ...


It would have been more elegant if he had gotten another to snitch and not himself. Using the information is by it self is not anti elegant to use the information. Having the direct interaction with the police is. Is it in general frowned upon with in the criminal world to be a rat? Of course it is. 

I do know the difference between temperament and temper. However I will still say that temperament. You can be time be better as a leading and take actions. I don't believe that we a born with a certain set of level of temperament (even though I like Nietzsche). I don't believe leaders are born. I believe they are created. That set some will have a mind and physical benefits which made the more possible to be leaders. I don't think you can expect Penguin to be a leader when he is not the role of being a leader. He clearly has ambition and ideas how to become one.

I don't disagree with cognitive therapy. I think we have miscommunicated there. I have never said that you can truly cure neither mental illness nor sociopathy nor do I believe will ever will. However what causes and how to control it and live it that I find rather important and interesting.

----------


## Kid A

> I don't like it better than either of them, but I still think it's one of the best shows on TV, and maybe has the most "oh shit" moments on TV.


Fair enough, but I don't think it would get nearly as much praise as it does if it weren't for HBO+fantasy nerd hype.

----------


## MichaelC

> why did they have to invent a whole new character, Fish Mooney? Why not a proto Black Mask or something.


Isn't that obvious? So they can kill her. The canon villains are all immortal until Batman shows up. You need villains who can actually die years before Wayne puts on the mask.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

@Maxpower00044, Seriously, I'm starting to wonder about some of the folks on this board! It's because of the haters and the naysayers that descent entertaining shows on TV always get cancelled in their first season because freaking complainers hate on a show because it isn't the way they personally think it should be and so they rant and complain and get it cancelled which in turn causes the people who enjoy the show to lose it because the wieners whined and hated on it. Seriously, if you crybaby wombats don't like a thing then don't watch it but don't ruin the fun and enjoyment for those who do. Be civil and be sensible. There is plenty of diverse programming on television for everyone to watch without hating on various shows. If you don't like Arrow, Gotham or Sleepy Hollow then go watch your House of Cards on Netflix.

----------


## ispacehead

I really enjoyed this. I was very surprised. Heard some bad things about it from people that attended the screening, and I had pretty much written this series off.

Boy was I wrong.

I was concerned that this series would draw too heavily from the vibe of Nolan's films, and while it did, it seemed to draw equally from the Once Upon a Time vibe. Totally works for me.  

I didn't think we would be introduced to so many characters so quickly, but I enjoyed them all, Particularly Nigma and Oswald. 

I really liked the obvious influence Jim Gordon has on Young Bruce right away, and just the all around awesomeness of this guy's portrayal of Gordon. So spot on perfect. 

Interesting take on Alfred, but I like it so far. 

This just became my new favorite tv show.

----------


## Kid A

Ben McKenzie is great, yeah.  We'll be lucky if this show is a fraction of as good as Southland. 

Speaking of Southland, I think this show could similarly continue on TNT in the case that Fox pulls the plug.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Since Jim has had mustache from the start (unlike Ollie's beard), I agree.


Except for when he doesn't  :Wink: 

chief-ohara1_1322786266.jpg




> Isn't that obvious? So they can kill her. The canon villains are all immortal until Batman shows up. You need villains who can actually die years before Wayne puts on the mask.


Maybe but then again Harley Quinn stuck around. 
I think she could be there for diversity and Bats doesn't really have many females who can be adversaries with the cops and be flirty while Bruce is only 12. It'd be creepy if Selena flirted with Bullock and I don't think audiences would accept Carmine Falcone doing it either.  :Stick Out Tongue:  The fact that she could be killed givers her more danger and mystery. If Penguin and Fish are in trouble the audience may not be concerned with Penguin but we'd wonder if they'll kill her (they may not but we'll keep on edge more)

----------


## Vil_Dee

> Isn't that obvious? So they can kill her. The canon villains are all immortal until Batman shows up. You need villains who can actually die years before Wayne puts on the mask.


I think that's what all the generic mafioso and gangbangers are for.  The canon villains are still pretty much immortal even with Batman around anyway.  I think this show is less about Gordon and more about the origins of Batman's villains.  Gordon is just there to advance the plot.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Except for when he doesn't


Okay, 99.9% of the time then  :Smile:  (and I wasn't referring to anything but the comics, anyway - sorry, Neil Hamilton).

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> It would have been more elegant if he had gotten another to snitch and not himself. Using the information is by it self is not anti elegant to use the information. Having the direct interaction with the police is. Is it in general frowned upon with in the criminal world to be a rat? Of course it is. 
> 
> I do know the difference between temperament and temper. However I will still say that temperament. You can be time be better as a leading and take actions. I don't believe that we a born with a certain set of level of temperament (even though I like Nietzsche). I don't believe leaders are born. I believe they are created. That set some will have a mind and physical benefits which made the more possible to be leaders. I don't think you can expect Penguin to be a leader when he is not the role of being a leader. He clearly has ambition and ideas how to become one.
> 
> I don't disagree with cognitive therapy. I think we have miscommunicated there. I have never said that you can truly cure neither mental illness nor sociopathy nor do I believe will ever will. However what causes and how to control it and live it that I find rather important and interesting.


Yep, the other snitch would have been so Dixon's Penguin. And he'd probably throw him under the bus later. However, I can see other versions doing it as well. This Penguin is a rookie, so making a mistake like that fits the part. 

That still doesn't have class, but it's elegant in that he keeps his hands clean in everyone's eyes. Well, I guess it wasn't about class after all, but the fact that it was the obvious cheap thing to do.

Your statement made it look as if you were confusing what temperament is. Temperament might switch before adulthood for biological reasons. If you have the belief that nurture can make a person switch temperaments, we can agree that you disagree with what science has produced so far. I respect faith.

I won't rule out that in the future someone might discover some sort of training technique that manages to switch temperament. And I wouldn't be surprised if biologic manipulation or medical science achieves the same first ... If somebody wanted that, as there are no bad temperaments, each helps people fit a necessary niche and as far as I known, none of the four of five is correlated with success, emotional intelligence or happiness, as I'm sure you already know. 

We have found common ground in that we can accept that there are no current cures for mental disorders, specially cluster B. I also find it fascinating and I'm currently trying to find out if there is any development in the manipulation of volition.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Except for when he doesn't 
> 
> chief-ohara1_1322786266.jpg
> 
> 
> Maybe but then again Harley Quinn stuck around. 
> I think she could be there for diversity and Bats doesn't really have many females who can be adversaries with the cops and be flirty while Bruce is only 12. It'd be creepy if Selena flirted with Bullock and I don't think audiences would accept Carmine Falcone doing it either.  The fact that she could be killed givers her more danger and mystery. If Penguin and Fish are in trouble the audience may not be concerned with Penguin but we'd wonder if they'll kill her (they may not but we'll keep on edge more)


I certainly hope that Mooney doesn't die. Fish Mooney adds a new dynamic to Gotham City's Rogues Gallery. I truly hope that she at least last until young Wayne transforms into Batman for the first time.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> If she wasn't a name actress, maybe, but I figure Jada Pinkett Smith will have the role for quite a while as long as she doesn't go the prima donna route.


It depends. Being a name actress doesn't mean sticking there forever. It might be convenient for both sides for her character to go the Game of Thrones way, specially considering that most of the cast is supposed to be alive by the time Batman debuts... which is at least 10 years from now... wow. That's quite a challenge. In the meantime, many unknown or lesser villains might come and go.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I certainly hope that Mooney doesn't die. Fish Mooney adds a new dynamic to Gotham City's Rogues Gallery. I truly hope that she at least last until young Wayne transforms into Batman for the first time.


Mooney going down as the last of the mafia before the rise or costumed characters would work for me (which would be a while from now in Gotham). 
If they take her alive the comics could integrate her as running what's left of her empire from jail.

----------


## doodledude

> It was however very critical acclaimed and the trades was selling very well and that was why it was kept in print.
> 
> 
> 
> The GA show would be another example. The show was popular even though the comics wasn't selling at the time and didn't change until you got a new writer on it. The show and the comics popularity was also due to different take on the character.


What they did with Arrow Is make him an amalgam of various different vigilantes in comics.That's why that show works.The character on the show is really a better and stronger one than the one in the comics.He's a little Daredevil and Batman and little Punisher for a bit.I don't feel that way about the Gotham characters they feel less than their comic counterparts.There is also the romantic stuff that goes on that is good for the female viewership.

----------


## The Red Monk

> Maybe but then again Harley Quinn stuck around. 
> I think she could be there for diversity and Bats doesn't really have many females who can be adversaries with the cops and be flirty while Bruce is only 12. It'd be creepy if Selena flirted with Bullock and I don't think audiences would accept Carmine Falcone doing it either.  The fact that she could be killed givers her more danger and mystery. If Penguin and Fish are in trouble the audience may not be concerned with Penguin but we'd wonder if they'll kill her (they may not but we'll keep on edge more)





> I certainly hope that Mooney doesn't die. Fish Mooney adds a new dynamic to Gotham City's Rogues Gallery. I truly hope that she at least last until young Wayne transforms into Batman for the first time.


There seems to be a world of difference between Harley Quinn and Fish Mooney at the moment.

Harley, as much as I dislike her, was unique. You'd never really seen someone like her in Batman's world before. Fish Mooney? She seems a dime-a-dozen generic female mobster right now, with very little to add to the world of Gotham. It also doesn't help that Jada Pinkett-Smith wasn't even trying. Every scene she was in was basically her chewing scenery. The only stand-out performance in the pilot so far was the Penguin, and as someone else mentioned before, he's nothing like the comic book Penguin anyway.

Now, granted, these things might change down the road, but for the time being, that's my $0.02 on it.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Mooney going down as the last of the mafia before the rise or costumed characters would work for me (which would be a while from now in Gotham). 
> If they take her alive the comics could integrate her as running what's left of her empire from jail.


Now that could really make for an interesting turn of events in the pages of a Batman comic. Fish Mooney organizing criminal activity from jail? That could actually be pretty neat because here in the Atlanta, GA region we've had a lot of prison bust where the law enforcement system has been cracking down on crime operations that are being run from by the incarcerated kingpins. It seems to be a real problem here in Atlanta and the surrounding suburbs and now the gangs are even getting involved. I wonder if Gotham, The Flash and Arrow would ever cross over in such a way? I wouldn't be surprised if Suicide Squad might show up in Arrow or The Flash. We've already had both Deathstroke and Harley Quinn in Arrow.

----------


## Flash Gordon

I finally got around to rewatching GOTHAM. It's not very good at all, real disappointing- but better than anything DC that the CW is putting out. I'll stick with it on my DVR for a while. It has a lot of good actors- so there's potential. Oddly a lot of THE WIRE alumni (which is my favorite show ever).

It needs a tighter focus on Gordon and his life and morals. It'll totally lose me if it becomes like SMALLVILLE where everyone Batman ever faced- he meet at 12 years old. I think that's where it's headed sadly.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Mainly, I hope they eventually get into the origin of that red phone in Gordon's office.

----------


## Tupiaz

> We have found common ground in that we can accept that there are no current cures for mental disorders, specially cluster B. I also find it fascinating and I'm currently trying to find out if there is any development in the manipulation of volition.


For me if you have manipulated your volition you have manipulated your temperament. Environment also dictates who is in control. If all the fish is bigger then you (and Penguin is here both weak physical but also in control) it can be wise to restrain your temperament and not be a pit bull attacking very body at sight. Going after the power directly can be very costly. 

I find some interest points leadership here and here




> What they did with Arrow Is make him an amalgam of various different vigilantes in comics.That's why that show works.The character on the show is really a better and stronger one than the one in the comics.He's a little Daredevil and Batman and little Punisher for a bit.I don't feel that way about the Gotham characters they feel less than their comic counterparts.There is also the romantic stuff that goes on that is good for the female viewership.


GA has killed before he did that by mistake in the 70's and by intend in the 80's under Grell. GA has always been a rich playboy so the the resemblance with Batman is oblivious. I don't see him be that equal to Daredevil expect that they are both emotional. However the comics when it works works a lot better than the comics. The comics looks cheap at times. The relationship with the supporting characters is uninteresting.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> For me if you have manipulated your volition you have manipulated your temperament. Environment also dictates who is in control. If all the fish is bigger then you (and Penguin is here both weak physical but also in control) it can be wise to restrain your temperament and not be a pit bull attacking very body at sight. Going after the power directly can be very costly. 
> 
> I find some interest points leadership here and here


Definitively, environments dictates who is in control and manipulating the environments means control. I like what I've read about Skinner. I kind of tried to start with him but I have not found where to begin. :S

Choleric people have very poor control over their temper, specially when there's no way out. This Penguin is portrayed as melancholic. It's a different artistic take. However, as someone pointed, if writers don't know how to profile, or about the impossibility of switchching temperament, they might just turn this Penguin into a choleric person.

----------


## MichaelC

This Penguin seems like an amalgam. Like the comics one, he's willing to snitch on other criminals to keep the heat off himself. Like several versions, he's cruel when he's got power, but cowardly the moment he doesn't. (I remember being struck by how cowardly he is in the video games, compared to Joker and Bane) He's got movie Penguin's make-up. 

The only thing unique to him is how he talks. He doesn't sound like any Penguin before, but then none of them sound like each other either. Penguin's always sounded drastically different from actor to actor.

----------


## Ceebiro

Finally, watched the premiere and I thought it was alright. It was not nearly as bad as I had feared. I can see why some critics have hailed it the most promising new show of the fall season, but the show has a ways to go before it fulfills that promise. The writing lacked subtlety but overall, it was competent.

Everyone did what was asked of them, but nobody really stood out as exceptional. The actor portraying Cobblepot was good. JPS was clearly having fun. Gordon was fine. Bullock was fine, if a little too far over the line of dirty cop. The rest of the cast did not have much to work with. I think it's a shame the angle they decided to take with Montoya at this stage. It's one thing to make her antagonistic towards Bullock, but I feel they jumped the gun with her and Gordon. 

I don't really care much for the Waynes' murderer mystery. It's not a compelling hook for me and I get the feeling that it will fall more and more to the wayside.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Harley, as much as I dislike her, was unique. You'd never really seen someone like her in Batman's world before.


If we're basing just off of first appearances, I'd say Harley wasn't more than a female hanging around Joker (something they did from time to time with villains and even Caesar Romero got a girl-Friday from time to time) When they brought Harley back and gave her a backstory and a friendship with Ivy it became more unique.

I think Fish has potential in that Gotham usually just has the godfather clones in Falcone, or Rupert Thorne. The nightclub/mobster is done a bit later with Penguin but not in a glam way. Gotham could use a flashy villain who isn't super-powered.




> It also doesn't help that Jada Pinkett-Smith wasn't even trying. Every scene she was in was basically her chewing scenery.


It's interesting how different people react, I don't see chewing scenery as a problem.  :Stick Out Tongue:  It might be a gay thing, I know on some of the LGBT forums I go to, they were all about Fish Mooney an her channeling Eartha Kitt. Different strokes, for different folks I guess.





> However, as someone pointed, if writers don't know how to profile, or about the impossibility of switchching temperament, they might just turn this Penguin into a choleric person.


Just an FYI, the whole "melancholic" "choleric" mumbo-jumbo fell out of favor like 80 years ago, so if the writers are ignoring that version of psychology it isn't from an inability to profile- it's because they don't buy into it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_te..._in_popularity

Most of those "personality type" ideas are BS
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/15/5881947...st-meaningless

----------


## Vakanai

To the guys talking about Penguin's temperament, I don't think we actually know what his temperament is just yet compared to his comic version. Just because he started out seemingly weasel-y and all in the pilot doesn't mean he's really that way considering he's trying to survive in another mobster's employ while plotting to take over and has no minions of his own yet. That's just playing a certain way till the plan comes together and you get the chance to act how you want to act. We've seen all of five minutes of this Penguin, and most of those he had to play loyal underling. The only scenes I think actually count in guessing his real temperament is him having fun beating that one dude, killing that one guy cause he missed breakfast apparently, and the preview of him killing those kids who said he walked like a Penguin in that car. Which doesn't give us much besides the obvious him being a sadistic psychopath. Which you know, Penguin.

----------


## Nite-Wing

The way he killed that guy over a sandwich seemed like something the Joker would do. Then you have his whole demeanor and obvious complex about the way he walks in next eps preview
yeah he's obviously turning into a victor zsazs/Joker/Mad hatter amalgam rather than a straight up penguin

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Just an FYI, the whole "melancholic" "choleric" mumbo-jumbo fell out of favor like 80 years ago, so if the writers are ignoring that version of psychology it isn't from an inability to profile- it's because they don't buy into it.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_te..._in_popularity
> 
> Most of those "personality type" ideas are BS
> http://www.vox.com/2014/7/15/5881947...st-meaningless


FYI, I use the classical terms because they are still the coloquial (ish) way to call those types of temperaments. There have been several ways to classify temperament types and most of them were created well after 1934 (so much for your "like 80 years ago") and some are recent enough. Before you go ahead claiming that temperament is "mumbu-jumbo" you should just look the concept in general, ans see how current it is. As a way to describe a character, the classic names are handy, since at least 3 of those are part of our common vocabulary. This is why Gaiman used melancholic to describe Morpheus. It's a handy adjective to stereotype. 

BTW, we are not interviewing the Penguin to see if he is applying for the right job or likely to be happy (or have a favorable opinion of that kind of test), so we don't really need that last link.




> To the guys talking about Penguin's temperament, I don't think we actually know what his temperament is just yet compared to his comic version. Just because he started out seemingly weasel-y and all in the pilot doesn't mean he's really that way considering he's trying to survive in another mobster's employ while plotting to take over and has no minions of his own yet. That's just playing a certain way till the plan comes together and you get the chance to act how you want to act. We've seen all of five minutes of this Penguin, and most of those he had to play loyal underling. The only scenes I think actually count in guessing his real temperament is him having fun beating that one dude, killing that one guy cause he missed breakfast apparently, and the preview of him killing those kids who said he walked like a Penguin in that car. Which doesn't give us much besides the obvious him being a sadistic psychopath. Which you know, Penguin.


I think you can start profiling within the first minute of interaction and even have the impression that the subconscious always does; however, that's just me and I don't have reference to back this. What we saw of the Penguin seem to be his natural reactions, coward, insecure, easily scared, cunning, weasely, melancholic, a bit choleric and lacking social skills. I think that was unlikely an act, but we will see next week.




> This Penguin seems like an amalgam. Like the comics one, he's willing to snitch on other criminals to keep the heat off himself. Like several versions, he's cruel when he's got power, but cowardly the moment he doesn't. (I remember being struck by how cowardly he is in the video games, compared to Joker and Bane) He's got movie Penguin's make-up. 
> 
> The only thing unique to him is how he talks. He doesn't sound like any Penguin before, but then none of them sound like each other either. Penguin's always sounded drastically different from actor to actor.


Characterization's modeled after Dixon can be cowardly (even if in that continuity he is supposed to be a skilled fighter), in most of the classic ones (DeVitto, Burgess, Kenny, Root Williams, before TNBA, and even his first appearance) the penguin doesn't know his limitations and confronts Batman physically whenever he gets angry (which happened often).  Burgess, DeVitto, Kenny and Root don't sound that different to me, considering they are different actors.

----------


## manduck37

Finally got around to watching this last night.  It was ok, nothing really great.  I enjoyed their portrayal of Jim Gordon and Penguin, but the rest left a lot to be desired.  I like seeing Penguin start out as a lacky as he rises to power.  There was a lot of emphasis on the corruption Gordon will have to deal with.  The kid who played Bruce isn't bad either.  The show would have been a lot better if they focused on the story this episode and less on name dropping every Batman villain out there.  I don't need to see every villain right in the first episode.  There's plenty of time to introduce them and build things up.  Don't just parade them all across the screen so you can say "look here they are!".  It was obnoxious.  

I was a little disappointed in how they handled Bullock, making him incredibly corrupt.  I really don't see any reason why Gordon would keep him around and on the force in the future.  Especially with the scene at the docks, where he orders Gordon to kill Penguin. 

We also got the all time worst portrayal of Alfred.  Ever time he appeared on screen, I physically cringed.  He didn't even get all that much screen time, but when he did, it was horrible.  

Over all, enough for me to check it out again, but I'm not expecting much.  I'll get around to it again, but it's certainly not appointment television.

----------


## MichaelC

Alfred kinda needed to be this way, because this isn't a Bruce who is going to travel the world the moment he gets physically able to. Depending on how long this show lasts, he may even spend his entire pre-Batman life in Gotham. Which means he needs someone to train him right here. A version of Alfred that emphasizes that he was a soldier before he became a servant allows for this. Basically, Bruce can be trained locally by a gritty James Bond.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

Given the characters. I think it could improve a lot with a change of director. 

As a fan, what I wish to see is a lot less cameos and a series with great pacing and memorable scenes. In Smallville, I never liked those soap opera type of scenes in which Clark went to Luthor's house to have some tense discussion while he pours liquor in a glass, I don't like them here either (who does that?!). The lines are often (but not always) too corny, with no gravitas and barely any fun. 
Something stuff I'd appreciate in this show is cases, like in Law and Order, The Mentalist, The Practice or Monk, some with known characters and villains, some on the streets, some at court. The names and profiles might come from characters from the comics, but less over the top and more grounded (which doesn't mean darker). Silent mystic/iconic scenes, like the openings of Breaking Bad (but not necessarily at the opening) would be nice. Character sketches now and then wouldn't hurt.

----------


## Nick Miller

this was OK. Defentaely will watch more.

next episode focuses on Catgirl

and usually these shows now have different directors and writers for each episode, so things may change Rafa. 

I do believe there will be cases that they work on.

The Wayne killer will never be caught till the last episode, when Batman emerges (by the way, its the Joker,)

----------


## PretenderNX01

> There have been several ways to classify temperament types and most of them were created well after 1934 (so much for your "like 80 years ago") and some are recent enough. Before you go ahead claiming that temperament is "mumbu-jumbo" you should just look the concept in general, ans see how current it is.


What I see is no one agrees on any of it so it's not worth claiming the writers don't know what they are doing when those who claim to classify someone permanently in one temperament don't know either. Mumbo-Jumbo  :Stick Out Tongue: 
It's handy for writers to classify characters, and easier to write less complex people who fit in molds TV Tropes does that with teams but that doesn't mean it's "real" or that they are unchanging. As they note: _The four temperament system was an interesting one, but flawed. Several tests noticed people that did not conform to any of the behavior types, so a neutral temperament was created_




> The show would have been a lot better if they focused on the story this episode and less on name dropping every Batman villain out there.  I don't need to see every villain right in the first episode.  There's plenty of time to introduce them and build things up.  Don't just parade them all across the screen so you can say "look here they are!".  It was obnoxious.


Yeah they packed a lot in, at least they said they won't be jamming that much into future episodes at one time.

I'm assuming Harvey isn't actually as corrupt as it seems although the pre-Crisis version was.
_Prior to the 1984-85 DC maxi-series Crisis on Infinite Earths, Bullock is a crooked police detective under instructions from Gotham City's Mayor Hamilton Hill to sabotage Commissioner Gordon's career[1] when he is introduced in his first appearance in Batman #361 cover dated July 1983 in the story entitled " The most successful species " written by Doug Moench and penciled by Don Newton. His method of doing so is to pretend to be exceedingly clumsy, thereby spoiling whatever Gordon is trying to do, seemingly accidentally. After inadvertently giving Gordon a heart attack, however, Bullock turns over a new leaf._ 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_...cter_biography

They may decide to go for a character needing to be redeemed with Bullock. Post-Crisis he was loyal to Gordon but with a bad reputation, Major Crimes liked him though.
Alfred's an interesting choice. I guess the new Earth One book has a tougher Alfred than normal which must have influenced this one. 




> The Wayne killer will never be caught till the last episode, when Batman emerges (by the way, its the Joker,)


I doubt they're going to also do the Joker killed the Waynes, probably some version of Joe Chill being hired by the mob. We'll have to see if they introduce Lew Moxin.

----------


## The Red Monk

> I think Fish has potential in that Gotham usually just has the godfather clones in Falcone, or Rupert Thorne. The nightclub/mobster is done a bit later with Penguin but not in a glam way. *Gotham could use a flashy villain who isn't super-powered.*


 :Confused: 

Joker, Black Mask, Penguin, Two-Face, Ventriloquist, Great White Shark...? Batman has more non-powered villains with flashy gimmicks than literally any other comic book superhero, except for maybe Dick Tracy. If anything, he could use more super-powered villains, instead of dime-a-dozen mobsters with gimmicks and generic martial artists/assassins/ninjas.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I really enjoyed the first episode. Looking forward to more!

----------


## mr_crisp

> It's interesting how different people react, I don't see chewing scenery as a problem.  It might be a gay thing, I know on some of the LGBT forums I go to, they were all about Fish Mooney an her channeling Eartha Kitt. Different strokes, for different folks I guess.


I was getting a whole Earth Kitt vibe from Jada Pinkett-Smith.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I was getting a whole Earth Kitt vibe from Jada Pinkett-Smith.


I loved when she adjusted her weave/wig. A little eccentricity/humor.

----------


## billee0918

> The Wayne killer will never be caught till the last episode, when Batman emerges (by the way, its the Joker,)


Nope, it's not.

----------


## Punisher007

I could actually see the killer being revealed/captured/killed/whatever by the end of the season.  And potentially even the mastermind behind it being revealed.  The season 2 could focus on the gang war that they're already teasing.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Joker, Black Mask, Penguin, Two-Face, Ventriloquist, Great White Shark...?


"Super Powered" isn't the right phrase- maybe "changed" or "meta" or "freak" somebody who doesn't have a shtick to them but a lot of personality .
No clown paraphernalia, no coins, umbrellas, no dummies, no teeth-filed-into-points.

He doesn't have much of that anymore (much less a dozen of them).

----------


## Tupiaz

> "Super Powered" isn't the right phrase- maybe "changed" or "meta" or "freak" somebody who doesn't have a shtick to them but a lot of personality .
> No clown paraphernalia, no coins, umbrellas, *no dummies*, no teeth-filed-into-points.
> 
> He doesn't have much of that anymore (much less a dozen of them).


Reminds my I want to see the Ventriloquist.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> What I see is no one agrees on any of it so it's not worth claiming the writers don't know what they are doing when those who claim to classify someone permanently in one temperament don't know either. Mumbo-Jumbo 
> It's handy for writers to classify characters, and easier to write less complex people who fit in molds TV Tropes does that with teams but that doesn't mean it's "real" or that they are unchanging. As they note: _The four temperament system was an interesting one, but flawed. Several tests noticed people that did not conform to any of the behavior types, so a neutral temperament was created_


Well, if that's your reference your statement makes sense. Some pop cult addict with a knack for humor said so, so it must be true.

I'm actually a fan of TVtropes, one can't take it seriously. It's just for bringing up cliches in a fun way. And yet, this time they left you a clue that apparently you missed: "Though this theory has long since been discredited from a scientific standpoint, the general idea still remains and the theory is still used for personality profiling. " I never mentioned anything about the fluids, which is the mumbo-jumbo part that nobody could take seriously.  The four words are useful for profiling and describing, even if it's very rare to find somebody that fits the bill a 100%. 

Along with knowing a lot about personality types and disorders, regardless of how you call each, temperaments are the tools of the trade fow writers. Specially if they pretend to reuse characters that someone else created. So, in any incarnation, the Penguin is plump or obese, has a beak nose, black hair, bald or balding, cigarette holder, top hat, monocle, black tailcoat or long coat. Give or take a few, that's how his appearance is recognized. When it comes to his character, most versions have him short tempered, bossy, egocentric, theatrical, self aggrandizing, vindictive, charismatic, strong willed, etc. Saying choleric with narcissistic personality disorder just saves time,  helps writers understand how his mind works and prevents flanderization.     

You'll have to prove that people can change from one temperament to another. They might work on improving their temperament, which is a different matter.    

Seriously, don't take your facts from TVTropes. It's like taking your reference from cartoons. They even got it wrong. The neutral temperament Phlegmatic, was part of the original four, the fifth was Supine, those who feel happy serving people and rarely get angry. Some versions displace phlegmatic as a combination.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> You'll have to prove that people can change from one temperament to another.


No I don't because you have yet to prove this "temperament" bullshit is anything more than bullshit. *If you're going to make an assertion that something is real, it's on you to then prove that*. You haven't.

Hell, TV Tropes is at least a half-hearted attempt at a source  of anyone who is even using this temperament stuff (seriously, no one else does) but all you have done is ramble your ramble and never once link to a certified academic source so it's laughable you of all people are going to lecture on sources when you have not one single source. Not one. 

I'm done and your ignored. I don't need this.

----------


## Crimson Knight

> Nope, it's not.


Well, it _could_ be. It could be much of anyone, really.

Jack Napier, Joker, Joe Chill, one of the League of Assassins, someone working for Mooney/Cobblepot/Falcone.

Any amount of people really. A big twist, however much sense it'd make, would be Alfred himself as the killer, but we don't know if it's the Joker or not, here, really. Not yet.

----------


## bagocats

Am I the only one that has a problem with all these characters being vastly older than Bruce? Bruce is like 12, right? Selina seems to be like 24 which kinda kills it for me.I would have been able to buy it a lot more if it wasn't immediately after Bruce's parents dying but basically right before he left Gotham. 

DISCLAIMER: I have yet to watch it or read the entirety of this thread. I'm going strictly off of the ads run in Batman Eternal

----------


## Crimson Knight

> Am I the only one that has a problem with all these characters being vastly older than Bruce? Bruce is like 12, right? Selina seems to be like 24 which kinda kills it for me.I would have been able to buy it a lot more if it wasn't immediately after Bruce's parents dying but basically right before he left Gotham. 
> 
> DISCLAIMER: I have yet to watch it or read the entirety of this thread. I'm going strictly off of the ads run in Batman Eternal


I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and David Mazouz, Bruce Wayne, is 13, while Camren Bicondova, Selina Kyle, is 15, so there's not _too_ much of an age difference, I think.

----------


## magicallypuzzled

oh nice to see i wasn't too far off in my own guess i though selina was 16  though if i had been given leeway i really would of guessed 16-18 instead of younger.

----------


## bagocats

> I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and David Mazouz, Bruce Wayne, is 13, while Camren Bicondova, Selina Kyle, is 15, so there's not _too_ much of an age difference, I think.


Ok so that does put put me more at ease, maybe she just looks a lot older than she really is and I'm used to 2-+ year olds being cast as teenagers.

----------


## The Red Monk

> I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and David Mazouz, Bruce Wayne, is 13, while Camren Bicondova, Selina Kyle, is 15, so there's not _too_ much of an age difference, I think.


Meh, I prefer Catwoman being younger than Batman.

----------


## Adam West

Repost it from the TV forum

Sorry, but I hate that pilot

Hate the comic booky dialogue, hate the name droppings. The show seems can't focus whether to be realistic gritty cop drama, or the CW super hero soap. It feels like Arrow without the cool 'superhero' action, and that's a bad thing. Because cool superhero action was the one thing that make me able to stomach the cast wooden acting. Yes, I don't see why we can't compare it with Arrow. I always like the escalation idea in Begins, and it seems off to me that all that villain already in Gothamwayy before Batman shows up. The only good thing about it is Logue, and McKenzie to some degree. I like his Gordon, but everything else just doesn't do it for me. 
Oh and one other reason I can watch Arrow is that it show character never seen on TV before, while Gotham, it's the nth interpretation of how Bruce Wayne parents got killed and leads to Batman. Unfortunately this interpretation doesn't show anything interesting for me

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Well, the ratings and reviews indicate to me _Gotham_ will be very successful, which is good because I think it's super. Yes, it's a police drama, but it's the most unique one in TV history, IMO.

----------


## Smart

I really enjoyed it, pilots are usually a bit awkward, they have to introduce the characters and the concept in 45 mins while setting a tone and direction going forward, so I can understand the over packing of villains and Easter egg references etc. I've read some reviews complaining about showing the batman origin, but I can't understand how they could do a pilot for this show without that being in there from day one.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm wondering if the constant name-dropping was also about selling the show to the network.  Fox may have been reluctant to back a Batman-less show set in Gotham, so they threw in appearances by well-known Bat-characters just to get Fox onboard.  Also, these characters will clearly play big roles in the future.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

> II've read some reviews complaining about showing the batman origin, but I can't understand how they could do a pilot for this show without that being in there from day one.


I'm usually first on-board with complaints about rebooting, going back to origins, etc.

In Gotham's case, I think they nailed it. The newly added things (Selina witnessing, the shooter actually brushing past Bruce rather than running away from him) didn't detract from it, and the mood, scene and pacing were spot on right up to Bruce's death wail.

My complaints are still focused on too much name dropping, the chosen time period, and the possibility of this going the Smallville route with having too much Batman stuff going on pre-Batman. I accept the fact that it isn't Gotham Central, but that doesn't mean I can't view things with rose-colored glasses and play "what if".

----------


## Ultra Magnotron

> ...A big twist, however much sense it'd make, would be Alfred himself as the killer, but we don't know if it's the Joker or not, here, really. Not yet.


*In Comic Book Guy's vocie*

Worst. Twist. EVER! I can already hear the Internet imploding with disgust and eyeballs rolling entirely out of their sockets. Good day, sir.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> *In Comic Book Guy's vocie*
> 
> Worst. Twist. EVER! I can already hear the Internet imploding with disgust and eyeballs rolling entirely out of their sockets. Good day, sir.


Yeah, that would be horrible. Though I would like Joe Chill to be the killer, I could handle someone else instead. Alfred? Nope.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Does it seem clear that while there yet is no true Big Bad in GOTHAM, the city itself will always be the Bigger Bad?

----------


## colossus34

Ugh people actually liked the Fish Mooney character? Jada seemed so out of place tonally compared to the rest of the cast. It's like they took her form the shumacker films and plopped her into Nolan movies. All I'm waiting for is for her to have an evil maniacal laughter moment. Other that her horrible scene chewing moments, the rest of the show worked. A little too predictable of a plot and Gordan's gf is a wooden actress but I think the show still has some time to grow and will probably keep enough intrigue and viewers to maintain a few seasons.

----------


## The Nuke

Pilot won't bad, but I fear that everything the show had to say was in the pilot. Now its just a cop show set in Batman world, without Batman.

Does Gotham have the weight in plots to keep it going? We'll start finding out tonight I guess.

----------


## Kapparition

They already showed some of Selina's prowess as a cat burglar. She jumped off a roof and ended up unharmed after all.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Wow they are basically just tossing out the whole rogue's gallery for this season.

----------


## tabo61

Good episode tonight. I loved that scene of Cobblepot's mom.

----------


## InformationGeek

Really liked this new episode, a bit more than the previous.  Also liked that we got a hint at new foe on the horizon, the Dollmaker.  Really curious to see how they handle him.

----------


## The Nuke

> Wow they are basically just tossing out the whole rogue's gallery for this season.


Which could lead to the shows downfall amongst fans of the universe pretty fast.

----------


## FuturePasta

Much better episode than the first. More action and an interesting plot to follow, acting and direction were much improved as well. Thoroughly enjoyed it, especially when Selina had her time to shine. As mentioned above, I'm interested in how the Dollmaker will be brought in, too - actually, I'm looking forward to it. Really hope this show continues in good stride, they have a nice thing going here.

----------


## Dabrikishaw

My thoughts: Some parts were better than the pilot, others were worse. Can't wait for the next one.


I don't know which version of The Dollmaker I find creepier, Arrow's or this.

----------


## Beantownbrown

Looks like Pyg is in the next episode

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

As I've said before, I really want this show to succeed. But for me it's all glitz and no substance. Now I'll readily admit that I think most network "dramas" are complete trash, so maybe I just don't like the style. But there is no subtlety here and nothing particularly intelligent - it just kind of beats you over the head that this is Batman w/o Batman. I do like Selina Kyle, I think the actress is perfect and I like how they are portraying her. I do like McKenzie and think he was a nice choice for Gordon. Daniel Logue is a good actor, but they have made Bullock too seedy. Biggest complaint, what is up with Alfred? Even Michael Caine's portrayal, while tough, was more introspective and obviously loved Bruce. This Alfred seems like he might get in a Scottish bar fight rather than act in London.

----------


## Pinsir

jesus christ this show is dark

----------


## nepenthes

> As I've said before, I really want this show to succeed. But for me it's all glitz and no substance. Now I'll readily admit that I think most network "dramas" are complete trash, so maybe I just don't like the style. But there is no subtlety here and nothing particularly intelligent - it just kind of beats you over the head that this is Batman w/o Batman. I do like Selina Kyle, I think the actress is perfect and I like how they are portraying her. I do like McKenzie and think he was a nice choice for Gordon. Daniel Logue is a good actor, but they have made Bullock too seedy. Biggest complaint, what is up with Alfred? Even Michael Caine's portrayal, while tough, was more introspective and obviously loved Bruce. This Alfred seems like he might get in a Scottish bar fight rather than act in London.


Yep many of its flaws naturally stem from it being network TV geared to a family audience. It can't even be The Americans or Person of Interest or Homeland - which would've been nice - but instead is justifiably geared to the same people as NCIS and Arrow; which means easy viewing. Superficial, cheesy, formulaic and obvious. But it's a bit silly to begin complaining about this.

Likewise any continuity or comic accuracy dilemmas. Yes it's going to be very different. Yes it basically transplants all of Batman's villains over to a young Jim Gordon. Deal with it. Again is the nature of the show. 



A week out from the pilot however i think I've isolated it's central problem back to the most addressable and most severe; Jim Gordon lives in a goddamn penthouse. 



WTF is up with this. He comes home from a hard day and despairs in the arms of a rich model bisexual girlfriend while a fire crackles cozily in the hearth and city lights sparkle beyond elaborate floor-to-ceiling windows. I have NO IDEA idea why the writers thought this would be a preferable set-up. It actually comes very close to gutting Jim Gordon as a character, and if they can't deliver a compelling protagonist then we genuinely do have a serious problem. Where's the struggle? We need the rock-solid cop with a conflicted personal life and crummy apartment who despairs for the future of not only his city but for his unborn child and neglected wife. Whose idea of domestic bliss is butter chicken and a back massage. I find it difficult to care about a whiny rookie-nerd in a penthouse. Where is this couple?

----------


## AngelsXDemons

Tonight's episode of "Gotham" was definitely another solid hit in my book. I loved the Bat comic Easter eggs and it even seemed as if there was a hint at Professor Pyg. Catgirl/Selina Kyle once again stole the show and Fish Mooney continues to be a heavy hitting powerhouse. It was also nice to see that Alfred isn't totally austere and it's clear that Bruce is beginning to walk the path to donning the Bat cowl. Penguin continues to be a well developing villain.

----------


## The Whovian

I didn't think this episode was as good as the first. Alfred yelling at Bruce instead of comforting him was terrible. This Alfred acts nothing like the Alfred from the comics or movies. 
This episode was titled "Selina Kyle" but she was hardly even featured. It was more centered on Gordon and Bullock again.

The girl playing Selina has been great though. I couldn't help but laugh when she told that cop she was going to tell someone he touched her and his reaction. That and her talk with Gordon at the end was the best part of the episode.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> Yep many of its flaws naturally stem from it being network TV geared to a family audience. It can't even be The Americans or Person of Interest or Homeland - which would've been nice - but instead is justifiably geared to the same people as NCIS and Arrow; which means easy viewing. Superficial, cheesy, formulaic and obvious. But it's a bit silly to begin complaining about this.
> 
> Likewise any continuity or comic accuracy dilemmas. Yes it's going to be very different. Yes it basically transplants all of Batman's villains over to a young Jim Gordon. Deal with it. Again is the nature of the show. 
> 
> 
> 
> A week out from the pilot however I've isolated it's central problems back to the most addressable and most severe; Jim Gordon lives in a goddamn penthouse. 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, there is that, but I'll disagree that I should "just get over it". Alfred is a character that's lasted over a half century because of certain aspects of his character that have remained pretty true across all media. Why they decided to go with what appears to be a different angle on the character makes no sense to me. I'll say the same with Bullock - one of the intriguing things about the character is that he actually is a protagonist despite what you expect. Is the Bullock you've seen here someone you would root for? As for Penguin - to me a rich kid from a storied family in Gotham (they could play that off Bruce) is far more interesting than a straight up homicidal maniac. These characters have been refined down to what makes them work for 40, 50 , 60 years and lasted to the point they are part of culture (Alfred and Penguin at least). Why reinvent the wheel there?

Having beautiful flats that would likely cost $5,000 a month is just what happens on network TV

----------


## Nick Miller

> Tonight's episode of "Gotham" was definitely another solid hit in my book. I loved the Bat comic Easter eggs and it even seemed as if there was a hint at Professor Pyg. Catgirl/Selina Kyle once again stole the show and Fish Mooney continues to be a heavy hitting powerhouse. It was also nice to see that Alfred isn't totally austere and it's clear that Bruce is beginning to walk the path to donning the Bat cowl. Penguin continues to be a well developing villain.


Agreed. 
Also, following along on Twitter, viewers are loving this. The show is in the TIm Burton vein. It is playing it very serious, but underneath, it knows it is freaking bizarre. And it revels in it. Bullock is so over the top. (we know he will see the light eventually, right guys?)

Also please don't expect Mad Men level complexity, it has to be mainstream.

Also lol at Twitter, everyone Is LUVING baby Selina Kyle! Everyone is like, wow she looks like michelle pfeifer! Well duh we only knew that months ago.

----------


## Nick Miller

Alfred being harsh after the murders is a natural overreaction on his part. He is now responsible. He is simply being way way overprotective. I expect him to soften up.

Also the episode was about the kidnapping of selina and the other kids, so i am fine with the detectives on the case getting the same face time.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Agreed. 
> Also, following along on Twitter, viewers are loving this. The show is in the TIm Burton vein. It is playing it very serious, but underneath, it knows it is freaking bizarre. And it revels in it. Bullock is so over the top. (we know he will see the light eventually, right guys?)
> 
> Also please don't expect Mad Men level complexity, it has to be mainstream.
> 
> Also lol at Twitter, everyone Is LUVING baby Selina Kyle! Everyone is like, wow she looks like michelle pfeifer! Well duh we only knew that months ago.


Yeah, as a child I was literally raised on the Tim Burton Batman movies starring Michelle Pfeifer which I'll take any day over the Nolan movies. I really am enjoying Gotham and thanks to Gotham rear ending Sleepy Hollow each Monday night I am now getting into a show I otherwise would not have watched and I am enjoying it. My parents were big DC Comics fans due to the Christopher Reeves movies and as a young adult I got into the Arkham Asylum games and now my family is really digging 'Gotham' too. So DC Comics addiction really runs in my family and extended family lol. 

The best part about the latter part of tonight's episode was Selina Kyle's breakout performance from Carmen Bicondova. I was killing myself with laughter as she told the police officer she was going to scream that he touched her and boy his freaking out was priceless. Then Cat's revelatory chat with Jim Gordon about "the boy" was just epic and then Penguin signed, sealed and delivered the episode with the horrifying ending. 

 But yeah, you're right Twitter is blowing up with praise and accolades of excitement from Gotham viewers. In fact, Gotham is the number one trending subject on Twitter tonight. It's even trending ahead of both Monday Night Football and Dancing With the Stars. Gotham speaks for itself.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Selina turned out much better than I thought. I wasn't too impressed last week and the preview wHere she was mouthing off the child services police lady made me cringe. She redeemed herself in the last scene though. That was pretty funny. So I guess her arc is going to be "how I find my mother"

The rest of the episode was ... I mean where do they find these velveeta villains?! Those doll maker henchpeople were hilariously bad. And the contrived chest thumping nonsense between Gordon and Bullock makes me feel like I'm reading a Geoff Johns comic. Are all of DC's TV shows like this?

----------


## Ginkasa

I disliked this episode for many of the same reasons I disliked the first one.  "Cat" is a highlight and if it focused on her the show might have something, but it does not.  I was actually fine with Alfred's portrayal here.  Yeah, the scene was jarring, but it makes sense.  If you've ever seen a parent's reaction (or been the parent reacting) when their kid has done something stupid and dangerous, this initial anger is pretty natural.  Your kid is in danger, so you're adrenaline start pumping out of fear and the drive to get them to safety.  Since the kid put himself in danger, you get kind of angry at him for doing that.

It felt natural to me.  And, keep in mind, the kid isn't Batman yet.  He's just a kid and Alfred isn't his ally in the fight on crime, but his father figure.  Its a different relationship to what we're used to.

----------


## colossus34

Another off episode in my book. Even if you get over the superficial, cheesy, and formulaic nature of the show it's really not even well written.

The whole plot with the children is never explained. We kill off the two baddies and then move on without a proper explanation or delving into the mystery. 

Selina looks exactly the part no doubt, but her voice is kind of high-pitched and whiney to be honest. Also I find it hard to believe a 70 pound girl somehow gouges out the eyeballs of a 250pound grown man. Does she have the strength of a chimp?

Alfred's portrayal was the most atrocious. He was borderline abusive towards Bruce and then admits that Bruce is harming himself and quite possibly in danger but won't go to a psychiatrist or get professional help. Shouldn't Gordan turn him in to Child Protective Services? Really disappointed in the direction they're taking with things.

----------


## Kid A

This show is kind of a mess.  On one hand, Jada Pinkett Smith is playing this over the top campy villain, and meanwhile Ben McKenzie feels like he's coming straight out of Southland.  The show can't seem to decide if this is a network crime drama or a Burton-esque, kooky sort of deal.  In the pilot,x it seemed like they were trying and failing at the former, but now it looks like they're slowly but surely drifting to the latter and embracing the superficial and cheesy nature of the show.

----------


## MichaelC

> Yep many of its flaws naturally stem from it being network TV geared to a family audience. It can't even be The Americans or Person of Interest or Homeland - which would've been nice - but instead is justifiably geared to the same people as NCIS and Arrow; which means easy viewing. Superficial, cheesy, formulaic and obvious. But it's a bit silly to begin complaining about this.
> 
> Likewise any continuity or comic accuracy dilemmas. Yes it's going to be very different. Yes it basically transplants all of Batman's villains over to a young Jim Gordon. Deal with it. Again is the nature of the show. 
> 
> 
> 
> A week out from the pilot however I've isolated it's central problems back to the most addressable and most severe; Jim Gordon lives in a goddamn penthouse. 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's a pretty common problem with Hollywood stuff in general: real working-class life is completely incomprehensible to the execs who run these things. They make every main character rich in practice if not in theory, because to do otherwise is utterly alien to them.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

Dollmaker? Seriously? What the hell are they reading?

----------


## josai21

Did anyone else find Alfred being creeped out by Bruce sneaking up on them absolutely hilarious? I don't know..I just had that whole image of Bruce as Batman disappearing on people...

----------


## magicallypuzzled

got to say i am really starting to like this show.  as far as my taste go it's not too dark or atleast i can easily skip the parts that are and it's not too adult and i say that as an adult  but really the crap most adults seem to want in an adult show sickens me so i am glad it isn't .  also i think selina and bruce's actors are amazing heck i like pretty much all of the castings.

----------


## Nite-Wing

This show is riding too close to Schumacher level of terrible 
Emo super edgy lil Bruce is something only bad writers play straight

----------


## Adam West

The number of reference to Bat-villains in only the first episode feels like the writers don't have enough imagination and creativity to explore Gotham and Gordon. Only one of them serve any purpose to the story (Penguin). They feel they have to put as many reference to Batman to make it interesting, while for me it's the opposite.  Personally, I think a good original story of how an idealist cop came into a corrupt town, try to clean it up only to failed miserably and realized that he needs help would be nice. Maybe throw in some future Batman villains here and there. That would be a whole lot cooler than this.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Didn't like the second episode as much as the pilot.  I felt it highlighted a lot of the shows flaws; bad dialogue and overly dramatic acting in some scenes.  I like the more campy fun versions of Batman and I feel The Dollmaker's underlings (Lili Taylor and Frank Whaley) gave off that vibe.  I like Sean Pertwee but I'm not really feelin' him as Alfred.  Robin Lord Taylor is pretty good as The Penguin though. I  kind of like that teenage Bruce was listening to heavy metal and drawing.

----------


## InformationGeek

> Dollmaker? Seriously? What the hell are they reading?


The New 52 Batman books (I believe he appeared in Judd Winick's Catwoman run).




> The whole plot with the children is never explained. We kill off the two baddies and then move on without a proper explanation or delving into the mystery.


Sure it was.  Someone called The Dollmaker needed these kids for some reason (if you recall the comics where he appeared, he wants them for a very creepy reason) and if we will be following the comics a bit on his character, he'll certainly appear again.  I mean, they named dropped him so it's not like he won't be coming back.  Also, his two henchmen are still alive and weren't killed, one was just knocked out.




> A week out from the pilot however i think I've isolated it's central problem back to the most addressable and most severe; Jim Gordon lives in a goddamn penthouse. 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF is up with this. He comes home from a hard day and despairs in the arms of a rich model bisexual girlfriend while a fire crackles cozily in the hearth and city lights sparkle beyond elaborate floor-to-ceiling windows. I have NO IDEA idea why the writers thought this would be a preferable set-up. It actually comes very close to gutting Jim Gordon as a character, and if they can't deliver a compelling protagonist then we genuinely do have a serious problem. Where's the struggle? We need the rock-solid cop with a conflicted personal life and crummy apartment who despairs for the future of not only his city but for his unborn child and neglected wife. Whose idea of domestic bliss is butter chicken and a back massage. I find it difficult to care about a whiny rookie-nerd in a penthouse. Where is this couple?


Doesn't remotely bother me.




> Alfred being harsh after the murders is a natural overreaction on his part. He is now responsible. He is simply being way way overprotective. I expect him to soften up.


Indeed.  Let's also remember something that people seem to be forgetting that's important.  Bruce Wayne's parents did die and its natural Bruce be affected... but what about Alfred?  He's served the family for a long time and most likely was naturally close to them.  With them gone and Bruce being the only one left, of course he would be overprotective and a bit on edge by what he's doing.  I mean, when he finds out that Bruce hurt himself with the candle, he got mad and yelled at him, but almost immediately followed it up by hugging him.  Alfred cares deeply about him, but is also upset with what he's doing and he doesn't want to lose him as well.

----------


## Nite-Wing

So Alfred shouldn't be worried that Bruce is hurting himself in response to grief about his parents dying?
The show has a really weird sense of how young Bruce became driven to be Batman. He didn't turn into the personification of a rich goth teen who cuts himself as he listens to music.
They want a young character to have such a grown up response but its just ridiculous. It would be more believable to have Bruce just become really quiet and really serious
Alfred's deal is a whole different issue but with the popular micheal caine portrayal we are left with this archetype

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Dollmaker? Seriously? What the hell are they reading?


Oh crap. Enough with the haters and people who aren't in tune with the ACTUAL Batman comics.

----------


## Noviere

I liked the campiness of the two villains, and thought Selina was great. Definitely enjoying it for what it is.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

I thought the episode was fine. I'm finding the show goes very quickly, which is always a good thing. 

The actors who play young Bruce and Selina are really good. Not your typical teen thespians, that's for sure.

----------


## MikeMC005

Really enjoying the show. I think the Penguin is portrayed perfectly and I cant wait to see his character grow and progress. One thing I am concerned about is that 3-4 seasons down the line Bruce and Selina are no longer going to look like kids they are going to look like 16 or 17 year olds and I feel at that point the show is going to face some very difficult challenges in trying to keep the focus on the GCPD and not on the evolution of The Batman and Catwoman characters.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> I liked the campiness of the two villains, and thought Selina was great. Definitely enjoying it for what it is.


I like the complicated strained and awkward friendship between James Gordon and Bullock; it's kind of like a Kirk and Spock bromance with occasional fights.

@MikeMC005, I'm actually hoping that the show will turn it's focus towards Batman rising in the later seasons of the show just as Smallville did with Oliver Queen and Clark Kent's heroes rising thing in the latter seasons of the show. It's going to be a bit hard for Gotham to ignore Catwoman and Batman's destines especially seeing how the show is already alluding to their futures; Wayne sneaks up on Alfred and Gordon, Bruce was testing himself in the opening of episode 2, Seline has pet cats, goes by the alias 'Cat' and kitty hides on a bus. See my point? 

In fact, it'd be a disservice for the show to ignore and not depict how Alfred went from fatherly/protective figure to a supportive Butler and ally to Batman. I certainly want to see how the show would handle young Batman attempting to hint in some way to Gordon who is really behind the Bat-cowl. Batman Arkham Origins has me wanting this show to go all the way.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Only one of them serve any purpose to the story (Penguin).


Well Selena was in this one and others will be followed up on later. It was a little heavy in the pilot but that was last week so on this weeks:




> Did anyone else find Alfred being creeped out by Bruce sneaking up on them absolutely hilarious? I don't know..I just had that whole image of Bruce as Batman disappearing on people...


It was a good "call back(?)" to the comics. Kid has skills.




> Alfred's deal is a whole different issue but with the popular micheal caine portrayal we are left with this archetype


Michale Caine didn't even portray Alfred as often and Michael Gough did and for others Alfred is just the some old guy hanging around the cave. It's a different world in "Gotham" than any of the other Batman portrayals, people are going to be different in it.




> Biggest complaint, what is up with Alfred? Even Michael Caine's portrayal, while tough, was more introspective and obviously loved Bruce. This Alfred seems like he might get in a Scottish bar fight rather than act in London.


It's an Alfred who is in over his head trying to raise a kid who's parents instructed should be allowed to make all his own decisions.




> Yep many of its flaws naturally stem from it being network TV geared to a family audience.


And yet we also have the complaint:



> jesus christ this show is dark


So which is it? Too family or too dark?




> A week out from the pilot however i think I've isolated it's central problem back to the most addressable and most severe; Jim Gordon lives in a goddamn penthouse.


Technically, his girlfriend lives in a penthouse. And Frank Miller isn't the be all end all for Gordon or Batman. BTW the penthouse was complained about last week, your late to the party.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## darkseidpwns

It's a decent show,certainly much better than Arrow was at this point. It does have it problems,most notable being certain phoned in acting performances that make you cringe and constantly being reminded that it's a Batman show.

Gordon needs a character arc fast.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It does have it problems,most notable being certain phoned in acting performances that make you cringe and constantly being reminded that it's a Batman show.


The only problems acting-wise that I see are maybe the ones who plays Nigma (need to see him a little bit more before I make a final decision) and Barbara (the latter is pretty and leggy, so her acting gets a pass from me, anyway  :Big Grin: ). 

Everybody I either like or *really* like.

----------


## Maxpower00044

Decent episode. I'm still on board.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I enjoyed this episode better than the pilot last week. Selina really stole the show for me and though we don't normally get to see an Alfred who feels he's in over his head as a parent I enjoyed seeing a different angle on the character and though his reactions were all spot on.

----------


## SXVA

Just now starting the episode,

Bullock: "People shoot bums all the time..."

Cracking up at that.

Donal Logue is so good.

Decent episode, nice developing of Cat/Selina and Bruce... fun to watch Frank Whaley and Lili Taylor in their roles, i've been watching them both in movies for so long... i thought it was a good episode to have follow the pilot [which was too much too soon] moving slower, and developing/building.

Really have a feeling that i'm going to enjoy this series greatly, hope it stays on at least 3 seasons.

----------


## byrd156

> Just now starting the episode,
> 
> Bullock: "People shoot bums all the time..."
> 
> Cracking up at that.
> 
> Donal Logue is so good.
> 
> Decent episode, nice developing of Cat/Selina and Bruce... fun to watch Frank Whaley and Lili Taylor in their roles, i thought it was a good episode to have follow the pilot [which was too much too soon] moving slower, and developing.


That line by Bullock was really funny. Do the people of Gotham just go out at night and shoot at homeless people?

----------


## ispacehead

Awesome episode! Love that Gotham is already brimming with weirdness.

Love the level of violence.

LOVE Gordon's character.  Probably my favorite physical portrayal.

Anybody else get the feeling that Falcone is behind the death of Jim's father somehow?

----------


## Xhatch

"You're a monkey riding a race horse" -Bullock

Great line, made me LOL. Have to say I'm loving this show so far and Bullock is my favorite character.

----------


## Abishai100

Maybe our world needs a vigilante like Batman, since people seem to distrust cops more and more these days.  Maybe Gotham is our subconscious social perception of Boston, Massachusetts.


Imagine the dark knight combatting this bizarre set of villains in Gotham City ---

1. Scarecrow: contaminates the city's drinking water with dangerous levels of LSD, so people are running around unable to feel sane

2. Riddler: creates a pirate TV broadcast about sexy women with AIDS tempting men to have sex with them anyway

3. Ra's al Ghul: kidnaps the mayor's daughter and holds her for ransom until the citizens agree to pay him millions for his eco-radical initiative

4. Harley Quinn: plants bombs in cop cars to unnerve the people of Gotham


Batman saves the day by funding fancy eco-friendly electric cop cars to the Gotham City police department through his lucrative Wayne Enterprises under his sociable identity of Bruce Wayne.

Can these electric cop cars reach the people in time to save their morale?


I liked the second episode of "Gotham" (Fox TV).  The development of Penguin continues to be interesting as is that of Catwoman and Riddler (Edward Nygma).  I was also intrigued by the new eerie kidnapping duo dressed up deceitfully as do-gooders (portrayed by Lili Taylor and Frank Whaley).



 :Embarrassment: 


Street Justice (TV) 


mc.jpg

----------


## ispacehead

> I was also intrigued by the new eerie kidnapping duo dressed up deceitfully as do-gooders (portrayed by Lili Taylor and Frank Whaley).


They made the episode feel more like Batman in so many ways. I hope for more colorful henchmen and cameos from actors like this.

----------


## Mantis Girl 94

Not totally hooked yet, but I will say I did really enjoy this episode... I will be back next Monday  :Big Grin:

----------


## colossus34

> This show is kind of a mess.  On one hand, Jada Pinkett Smith is playing this over the top campy villain, and meanwhile Ben McKenzie feels like he's coming straight out of Southland.  The show can't seem to decide if this is a network crime drama or a Burton-esque, kooky sort of deal.  In the pilot,x it seemed like they were trying and failing at the former, but now it looks like they're slowly but surely drifting to the latter and embracing the superficial and cheesy nature of the show.


Yea I'll forgive them on the glaring tone mismatches for now. Lots of shows take a few episodes to hit their stride. Smallville went from meteor monster of the week to soapy drama over the course of its first season. I'm hoping the plots start making more sense and the character portrayals become more consistent but I'll give them another episode or two.

----------


## K. Jones

I took the time tonight to finally watch the first episode, and catch up with the second episode of _Gotham_.

Mark my words, stuff from this show that can, is going to immigrate to the comics.

Anyway, main point just from my initial pleased reaction - TV is a superior storytelling device these days compared to movies because it's forced to treat material with a bit more practicality, pragmatism and less grandiosity. SUPERMAN is very much a movie theater character. You need to see a man flying on a huge screen in an open sky. Gotham cops? TV's the right choice.

Foundation characterization is strong. Gordon & Bullock carry the whole thing. One's straight-laced, the other's walking the edge, but neither comes off as anything less than a cool character with a great choice of actor behind them. The natural drama of Montoya and Allen actually being foils works (Montoya and Barb Keane less so) because we know Jim's not crooked, and the Montoya and Allen actors are also a bit standout, and even "cool" as characters. Hopefully in the future we might get to see them borrow the spotlight here and there.

Distinctions are everywhere and excellent. Distinction between Homicide, Major Crimes and Beat Cops. Distinctions between petty crime, organized crime, would-be gangsters, and crazy bastards. Even the telegraphing once it stops after initial introductions (Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler) becomes far more palatable very quickly. 

I can't wait to meet people like Commissioner Loeb, Maroni, maybe Tony Zucco. With the accuracy of even using Mayor James (right name!) I was curious if we'd see crazy comics cohesiveness, like Bruce's maternal grandparents or a couple of his uncles still being around.

----------


## nightrider

I think a huge step up from the first episode. Unlike some other shows who take half a season to get better, Gotham already got better at the 2nd episode.

----------


## NewMutant

> I think a huge step up from the first episode. Unlike some other shows who take half a season to get better, Gotham already got better at the 2nd episode.


I tend to agree.  This episode was more focused on the GCPD.  The series has MANY flaws, but this episode showed promise.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I think a huge step up from the first episode. Unlike some other shows who take half a season to get better, Gotham already got better at the 2nd episode.


I agree. This was better. However, the villains sucked. They look like Oliver Twist rejects. 

However, I don't like the type of plots this episode is bringing up. GCPD is about perspective. The whole pint should be how law enfrocers used to common crime perceive super crimes, but that doesn't work if every little crime is going to be extraordinary. Big contrast is needed.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I agree. This was better. However, the villains sucked. They look like Oliver Twist rejects. 
> 
> However, I don't like the type of plots this episode is bringing up. GCPD is about perspective. The whole pint should be how law enfrocers used to common crime perceive super crimes, but that doesn't work if every little crime is going to be extraordinary. Big contrast is needed.





> Oh crap. Enough with the haters and people who aren't in tune with the ACTUAL Batman comics.


Oh, crap. Enough with people who dig crap.  

Also, Dollmaker stuff is not "actual" over the decent Batman stories, just more current. And it's concerning that these writers are taking their cues from the lesser writing, even by new 52 standards. In any case, using Pyg could have been a better reference. I'd even take Sewer King or Boss Biggis over Dollmaker.

----------


## K. Jones

Actually I thought Dollmaker worked because part of his built-in backstory that Tony Daniel gave him was being somebody that Gordon had been trying to take down a lot earlier in his career, you know, purely from a "wow, that's strangely accurate to current comic books" kind of way.

But hell, I was impressed they got Mayor James's name right. If some day we get an episode where he puts on a domino mask and carpools with Commissioner Loeb to a black mass in Bruce Wayne's graveyard where an evil psychiatrist, evil actress, evil moviemaker, and a guy who looks suspiciously like a time-traveled adult Bruce Wayne are gathered, my head may well explode.

Or for that matter, Lew Moxon.

Or Judson Caspian. Explore vigilantism PRE-Batman, dammit!

----------


## Flash Gordon

The kid playing Selina is really the best thing this show has going. 

Too bad this wasn't on FX or something, it's a shame. I hate seeing Gordon in a penthouse, reminds me of how Clark was never working on Smallville- can from humble means and still had huge flats.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Also take a shot every time they go out of their way to hammer home how shitty Gotham cops are. I swear to you you'll be off your rocker in the first 10 minutes.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Awesome episode! Love that Gotham is already brimming with weirdness.


It's still sorting out how they're hybridizing it but I think what I like it how it's sort of like "Bates Motel". Some people don't like how Bates Motel blends "Psycho" with "Twin Peaks" but I like it creepy-weird too. It kind of takes the edge off the violence when it's done in a stylish way. I like that Gotham isn't just corrupt but has a weird streak to it. There's something wrong with that town and something that a man dressed as a bat would think he could fix.




> Anybody else get the feeling that Falcone is behind the death of Jim's father somehow?


I think (or I'm lead to think now) that Falcone could be the cause of several major deaths. You do need his permission too kill a cop in this town. could be to kill a DA or a couple millionaires you need him too.




> I can't wait to meet people like Commissioner Loeb, Maroni, maybe Tony Zucco. With the accuracy of even using Mayor James (right name!) I was curious if we'd see crazy comics cohesiveness, like Bruce's maternal grandparents or a couple of his uncles still being around.


Tony Zucco makes me think of the Graysons circus and while I don't want to see the Graysons I did have an odd idea for a guest star from the circus. What about a still living Boston Brand?
1173483-boston_brand_of_earth_live.jpg
If they wanted a plausible costume they could have him do his act in a "morphsuit" under his gymnastic wear. Maybe Bruce would decide to start working on doing flips after that.
morphsuit-world-record-bid-1337703887-5157.jpg

----------


## ABH

Finally watched the second episode last night, and I enjoyed it. 

I'm really starting to like how twisted this show's Oswald is, and I felt his mother had a Burton-esque quality to her, which seems appropriate.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but I swear there are times where Jada is purposely trying to make Fish sound a bit like Eartha Kitt's Catwoman -- not all the time, but a line here and there.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Finally watched the second episode last night, and I enjoyed it. 
> 
> I'm really starting to like how twisted this show's Oswald is, and I felt his mother had a Burton-esque quality to her, which seems appropriate.
> 
> Maybe I'm imagining things, but I swear there are times where Jada is purposely trying to make Fish sound a bit like Eartha Kitt's Catwoman -- not all the time, but a line here and there.


I'm not seeing the Eartha-Jada similarity myself.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

> So which is it? Too family or too dark?


It's definitely dark. The scene where Penguin breaks the bottle and sticks the kid and the guy plainly showing his eyes gouged out are all things I wouldn't call "family friendly fare".




> Technically, his girlfriend lives in a penthouse.


Is it her place? I totally misheard/misremembered a line about her "moving in" during the pilot, then.

Likes:
-Casting/directing works all around for me. These are all actors I can easily translate in their roles from the source material. Any character issues I may have are all down to the writing of the character and not acting/direction chops. Except maybe Barbara - she's pretty bad at delivering her lines.
-Young Selina Kyle. Spot on, and highlight of the recent episode.
-Bruce sneaking up on Alfred and Jim - a great nod to Batman's usual "disappearing act" with Gordon.
-They kept things moving and at a good pace and interest. There weren't any dragging points and it actually didn't seem as long as it was - a sign that I'm enjoying myself.
Dislikes:
-They dialed it back a lot, but there is still some heavy-handedness with some things (perhaps to ensure the more general audience can pick up on things and not just comic fans). The opening scene with Selina batting at a locket on a chain as if she were feline was over-the-top.
-Changing Sara Essen's ethnicity seemed random. I can't recall if she was off-screen, or if we didn't get a good camera angle on her during the pilot, but she was openly visible in this episode.
-The "Nolanverse" Alfred. Never been a fan of that version and it's the one they've chosen here.
-The "cozy penthouse suite". I agree that the gritty "hole in the wall" ala Miller was a far better image of Gotham for Gordon to come home to. We're going out of our way to constantly beat us over the head with how corrupt the cops are, why not reinforce just how hopeless and alone Jim feels by being the only moral one on the force (excepting Montoya and Allen who apparently somehow can be straight cops without getting bumped off?)
-I still want the glasses and 'stache. I know I'm not getting them anytime soon, but still.

I'm still tuning in because it is entertaining to watch despite any nitpicks. I feel they are still doing more positive things than negative, at least so far.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Finally watched the second episode last night, and I enjoyed it. 
> 
> I'm really starting to like how twisted this show's Oswald is, and I felt his mother had a Burton-esque quality to her, which seems appropriate.
> 
> Maybe I'm imagining things, but I swear there are times where Jada is purposely trying to make Fish sound a bit like Eartha Kitt's Catwoman -- not all the time, but a line here and there.


Just watched the show myself.
Enjoying as well. Yeah I also got that Burton feel about his mother as well even the penguin look burtonish because he was so dirty. Especially his teeth gave him the look. However letting him having a caring mother (even though she wasn't doing to well) seemed off compared to the Batman Returns. 
Interesting that they are taking the Dollmaker and Toyman (i think he was mentioned one time?). It seems like the are going for the Anton Schott version of the Dollmaker.

----------


## nightrider

I just had a thought, I think if we were ever getting a chance to see Damien on screen, I think the young bruce wayne actor would be a perfect Damien.

----------


## Ronin705

This made me wonder about Batman's age in the current comics?? Only because of the age differences between he and the featured rogues so far. Don't feel comfortable thinking Batman's out there punching geriatrics lol

----------


## Tupiaz

> This made me wonder about Batman's age in the current comics?? Only because of the age differences between he and the featured rogues so far. Don't feel comfortable thinking Batman's out there punching geriatrics lol


Penguin has always been older. Selina and Ivy are about the same age as Bruce. There is a huge mismatched with age in the series. Montoya, Bullock and Allen being the same age as Jim. Get your suspense of disbelief going. 




> Dollmaker? Seriously? What the hell are they reading?


I think it is rather positive they use a lesser know character. Seems like the will use a lot of different characters and not only a-listers.




> "You're a monkey riding a race horse" -Bullock
> 
> Great line, made me LOL. Have to say I'm loving this show so far and Bullock is my favorite character.


You mean Flass right? 




> The number of reference to Bat-villains in only the first episode feels like the writers don't have enough imagination and creativity to explore Gotham and Gordon. Only one of them serve any purpose to the story (Penguin). They feel they have to put as many reference to Batman to make it interesting, while for me it's the opposite.  Personally, I think a good original story of how an idealist cop came into a corrupt town, try to clean it up only to failed miserably and realized that he needs help would be nice. Maybe throw in some future Batman villains here and there. That would be a whole lot cooler than this.


All the characters can be there at the same time. The however needs to be if you wanna sell a story with a pilot. Ed getting another scene which was a nice scene he wants to be acceptable but he isn't and that seams to be what drives him over the edge in this universe.




> Did anyone else find Alfred being creeped out by Bruce sneaking up on them absolutely hilarious? I don't know..I just had that whole image of Bruce as Batman disappearing on people...


Yep it was nice.




> Another off episode in my book. Even if you get over the superficial, cheesy, and formulaic nature of the show it's really not even well written.
> 
> The whole plot with the children is never explained. We kill off the two baddies and then move on without a proper explanation or delving into the mystery.


It will be answer later on. Dollmaker will be featured in an episode later. That is a given. We have only scratched the surface. Give it time.




> I disliked this episode for many of the same reasons I disliked the first one.  "Cat" is a highlight and if it focused on her the show might have something, but it does not.  I was actually fine with Alfred's portrayal here.  Yeah, the scene was jarring, but it makes sense.  If you've ever seen a parent's reaction (or been the parent reacting) when their kid has done something stupid and dangerous, this initial anger is pretty natural.  Your kid is in danger, so you're adrenaline start pumping out of fear and the drive to get them to safety.  Since the kid put himself in danger, you get kind of angry at him for doing that.
> 
> It felt natural to me.  And, keep in mind, the kid isn't Batman yet.  He's just a kid and Alfred isn't his ally in the fight on crime, but his father figure.  Its a different relationship to what we're used to.


Alfred's reaction was very logical. He hugged Bruce and said sorry afterwards.




> WTF is up with this. He comes home from a hard day and despairs in the arms of a rich model bisexual girlfriend while a fire crackles cozily in the hearth and city lights sparkle beyond elaborate floor-to-ceiling windows. I have NO IDEA idea why the writers thought this would be a preferable set-up. It actually comes very close to gutting Jim Gordon as a character, and if they can't deliver a compelling protagonist then we genuinely do have a serious problem. Where's the struggle? We need the rock-solid cop with a conflicted personal life and crummy apartment who despairs for the future of not only his city but for his unborn child and neglected wife. Whose idea of domestic bliss is butter chicken and a back massage. I find it difficult to care about a whiny rookie-nerd in a penthouse. Where is this couple?


Yep besides bullock being too crooked this is my biggest complain. It takes away the grittiness and the feeling that Gordon is from the streets and knows what is going on down there because he can relate and feel it. Now he can redraw in his penthouse apartment and forget about his work (he doesn't do it but in theory he could). If the police station has so much money that their cops can afford to live in a penthouse then they should be able to get better cops. Yes, the money can be Barbara or it could be his parents but it just takes away the noir feel about a cop who is living with crime around him. 

Bullock disliked Batman because he thought the police should fight crimes not "freaks". He didn't always did it by the book but he wasn't crooked or "in the program".

----------


## ABH

> Yeah I also got that Burton feel about his mother as well even the penguin look burtonish because he was so dirty. Especially his teeth gave him the look. However letting him having a caring mother (even though she wasn't doing to well) seemed off compared to the Batman Returns.


Oh yeah, Oswald's mother in this show is nothing like Burton's Mrs. Cobblepot, but she still had a bit of that Burton charm, I thought.

And yeah, Oswald himself -- maybe this is more or less how Burton's would look, without the sewer/abandoned zoo upbringing. Both "Penguins" aren't much for looks and are prone to violence, so they got that going for them...

----------


## EdwardNigma

I enjoyed the second episode. The kidnappers were creepy and the Doll maker should be interesting. I want to see more Edward Nigma time though.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I think it is rather positive they use a lesser know character. Seems like the will use a lot of different characters and not only a-listers.


You know what... You almost convinced me. And I said that as a good thing, at least you changed my mind a bit: Sure, I wouldn't want them to ruin the big shots (that's new for me), then again, I'd hate if the show prevents the Dollmaker to be forgotten.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Oh yeah, Oswald's mother in this show is nothing like Burton's Mrs. Cobblepot, but she still had a bit of that Burton charm, I thought.
> 
> And yeah, Oswald himself -- maybe this is more or less how Burton's would look, without the sewer/abandoned zoo upbringing. Both "Penguins" aren't much for looks and are prone to violence, so they got that going for them...


She definitely had a Burton feel.

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

I enjoyed it a lot, but I thought that the "Batman" bits were some of the worst things about the show. 
If its just hero cop Tim Garden's moving to Gothup city to find corruption, it works quite well. 

When the Penguin talks like Elias from Clerks 2, and Pamela Isley's name is Ivy Pepper, things feel weird. 
All the boring normal bits were great, for a tv show. 

All the Batman bits were a bit "ta-da!   here you go person who only saw 20 minutes of each Batman movie whilst also on a cellphone....look its that characther you half remember."

Also, I don't like the CGI city, it makes it look cheap and weird.

Also, minor nitpick, but it might've been nice to have Tommy Eliot in there somewhere. 



All minor nitpicks aside though, I'm very positive on this show. I just have to turn the nerd-dial down a bit, like I did with Nolan-Bane. I can enjoy THIS VERSION eventually once the "that doesn't seem right" factor washes out.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Also, minor nitpick, but it might've been nice to have Tommy Eliot in there somewhere.


Hopefully they will keep him far awway from this show. Spoiler: The character is so unrealistic and it would be in such a poor taste to have kid in the show who are jealous that his parents are dead.

Why do you btw way want a Batman character in the show when the Batman stuff seams of?

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Hopefully they will keep him far awway from this show. Spoiler: The character is so unrealistic and it would be in such a poor taste to have kid in the show who are jealous that his parents are dead.
> 
> Why do you btw way want a Batman character in the show when the Batman stuff seams of?


Young Bruce is a main character. Why not use someone he has business hanging out with at this point in time rather then force a childhood relationship with Selina Kyle or have him meet the Riddler as a child or "Ivy Pepper".

----------


## Tupiaz

> Young Bruce is a main character. Why not use someone he has business hanging out with at this point in time rather then force a childhood relationship with Selina Kyle or have him meet the Riddler as a child or "Ivy Pepper".


For the reason I put in the spoiler. Elliot is the worst character in Batman universe heck I will even say in comics in general. His motives makes no sense what so ever.

----------


## PretenderNX01

I don't mind if Bruce has a friend named Tommy but yeah some of the comic version would need to be fixed (like that bit you had listed). Hush is basically the anti-Bruce, how someone might go bad in all the ways Bruce went good but I'm not sure how much would work here. They could just play boardgames and talk about thinking like your enemies with Tommy being a little creepy about it. They haven't really had chance to show Bruce with anybody else, for all we know they have plans. 



> I'm not seeing the Eartha-Jada similarity myself.





> Maybe I'm imagining things, but I swear there are times where Jada is purposely trying to make Fish sound a bit like Eartha Kitt's Catwoman -- not all the time, but a line here and there.


I actually thought I heard it more this episode than the pilot (and I heard it a bit in the pilot) Not sure if it's on purpose or just her trying to have Fish do an affected pleasantry to guests.



> -The "Nolanverse" Alfred. Never been a fan of that version and it's the one they've chosen here.


People see things differently, I guess, even if we're all watching the same show.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
I would argue this is probably the opposite of Nolan's Alfred.  In fact others in this thread argued no one had done an Alfred this way before.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Next episode is the much hyped balloon man episode
I wonder how long it takes before he shows up in the comics again, that concept seems way cooler than something like crazy quilt

----------


## DurararaFTW

> For the reason I put in the spoiler. Elliot is the worst character in Batman universe heck I will even say in comics in general. His motives makes no sense what so ever.


They never really fixed Hush, no. But a supporting character that Bruce can interact with beside Alfred that he actually has business interacting with is something the show could use now.

----------


## MykeHavoc

Dini did plenty to "fix" Hush and made him one of the best bat rogues prior to the reboot. Heart of Hush/Hush Money/House of Hush is some of my favorite stuff written.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Dini did plenty to "fix" Hush and made him one of the best bat rogues prior to the reboot. Heart of Hush/Hush Money/House of Hush is some of my favorite stuff written.


We were talking motivations/originwise.

----------


## Lee Stone

I have to say I like it so far.

Plus...the cinematography is the most beautiful I've seen in a long time.
I see a Bladerunner influence.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Dini did plenty to "fix" Hush and made him one of the best bat rogues prior to the reboot. Heart of Hush/Hush Money/House of Hush is some of my favorite stuff written.


How did those stories fix the character?

----------


## MykeHavoc

I was referring to motivations and origin.

Go read them. Its all there.

----------


## The World

Having seen two episodes I think the show is kind of meh but I'll stick with it for a while. Many of the characters are cartoonishly over the top while the main character is pretty flat feels odd, and frankly the show is more funny than anything else. Definitely lacks any real gripping moments despite being considered a drama and feels more like a comedy to me. It's like Lazy Town meets The Shield.


Bullock and Alfred are definitely the best parts of the show for me though far and away and are primarily why I'm bothering to go further. Though I did form a soft spot for Selina in ep 2.

----------


## godisawesome

If I may offer my interpretation re: Hush's revised origins under Dini as opposed to the Loeb and Tynion renditions...

Dini established that Tommy still had at least vaguely friendly feelings towards Bruce after his murder of his parents wound up half-botched. This implied that the envy that propelled him into becoming Hush was a slowly fomenting storm under the service. Having another decade under his mother's thumb, and establishing her as always comparing him to Bruce and finding him lacking while raising him with her twisted world view, served to establish a logical mental pathway towards Elliot becoming consumed by his envy of Bruce and believe in a moral code where Tommy was better than everyone else without immediately being a biological sociopath. In Dini's interpretation, Hush emerges only after the revelation of Bruce's nocturnal activities, theoretically already planning to replace Bruce, and with a somewhat more intellectual hatred of Bruce. It's all in Dini's execution, but his Hush seems like a guy who's considerably more cold and logical than the other interpretations.

----------


## Mantis Girl 94

> Young Bruce is a main character. Why not use someone he has business hanging out with at this point in time rather then force a childhood relationship with Selina Kyle or have him meet the Riddler as a child or "Ivy Pepper".


I wish he would meet a Young Clark Kent (Ala Batman/Superman new52 #1)....

That would be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Beantownbrown

I'd like to see him and a young Tommy interact together in school. I was hoping that Harvey would be his schoolmate too but with the recent news we can forget about that.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I'd like to see him and a young Tommy interact together in school. I was hoping that Harvey would be his schoolmate too but with the recent news we can forget about that.


Oh, crap... And we'll probably see that. As much as I dislike Hush, that's likely the go-to storyline that gives young bruce some action. Then again, there is Gothic, or, a bit harder to pull, the Gray Ghost.
As for Harvey, sure, he'd be an interesting friend.
I really dislike when they perpetuate bad characters like the Dollmaker or Hush when they can do classics that are still missing their shot at the silver screen.




> Hopefully they will keep him far awway from this show. Spoiler: The character is so unrealistic and it would be in such a poor taste to have kid in the show who are jealous that his parents are dead.
> 
> Why do you btw way want a Batman character in the show when the Batman stuff seams of?





> For the reason I put in the spoiler. Elliot is the worst character in Batman universe heck I will even say in comics in general. His motives makes no sense what so ever.


Finally, some common ground.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Finally, some common ground.


Yeah that took us a while.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Gotham's episode 2 "Selina Kyle" was an improvement over the pilot.  Bruce and Selina were great.  I'm enjoying this version of Alfred, who is rightfully the legal guardian and adoptive father of Bruce.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Gotham's episode 2 "Selina Kyle" was an improvement over the pilot.  Bruce and Selina were great.  I'm enjoying this version of Alfred, who is rightfully the legal guardian and adoptive father of Bruce.


Yeah, a rightfully A hole.

----------


## Dabrikishaw

http://tvline.com/2014/10/02/gotham-...41003_32769596

Now Harvey is someone who absolutely doesn't work a decade before Batman's arrival.

----------


## Kid A

> http://tvline.com/2014/10/02/gotham-...41003_32769596
> 
> Now Harvey is someone who absolutely doesn't work a decade before Batman's arrival.


Don't see why not.  He's obviously several years away from being district attorney, let alone Two-Face. 

I mean, I have a problem with how this show is cramming so many to-be-Bat-villains in the show, but as an isolated case, I can imagine a young Harvey Dent here.

----------


## PretenderNX01

I guess Tommy Lee Jones was 14 years older than Val Kilmer but i still would have expected Harvey to be a bit younger than that guy, maybe he's playing 20s.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Don't see why not.  He's obviously several years away from being district attorney, let alone Two-Face. 
> 
> I mean, I have a problem with how this show is cramming so many to-be-Bat-villains in the show, but as an isolated case, I can imagine a young Harvey Dent here.


Yeah, a _young_ Harvey Dent. This guy is quite a bit older then Penguin, the Riddler and Gordon. What's up with that? Are they gonna revisit him and Renee as a couple?

----------


## Tupiaz

> Yeah, a _young_ Harvey Dent. This guy is quite a bit older then Penguin, the Riddler and Gordon. What's up with that? Are they gonna revisit him and Renee as a couple?


Don't think about the time gab just enjoy the show and take it for what it is.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

On the calls for seeing Tommy Elliot, why no calls for the original "Bruce's playmate", Roman Sionis? I know it hasn't been explored much, but they could probably do something with the kid who was forced to be friends because of his parent's wishes.

Then again, since there isn't really any serviceable plot they could shoehorn either Elliot or Sionis into, and since the larger public likely wouldn't even have an inkling on who Hush or Black Mask are, let alone their younger selves, I doubt we'll see either.

----------


## Kid A

> This guy is quite a bit older then Penguin, the Riddler and Gordon.


This is based on what what exactly?

----------


## EdwardNigma

I would really like to see Thomas Elliot in as Bruce's friend. It would be perfect. You could explore more about Bruce as a character while Tommy is.....Tommy. Think about what happens to HIS family.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I was referring to motivations and origin.
> 
> Go read them. Its all there.


thank you. Hush is a great Batman character. 

ON Gordon living in a penthouse: I am positive he will leave her and live in a shitty apartment, real soon. Be patient.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Don't see why not.  He's obviously several years away from being district attorney, let alone Two-Face. 
> 
> I mean, I have a problem with how this show is cramming so many to-be-Bat-villains in the show, but as an isolated case, I can imagine a young Harvey Dent here.


I'd prefer if he was a teenager, but It's not that bad. The problem is that they are cramming all the key players in the first season. I thin they should be doing the likes of the Human Eraser, the Tweedles, Spellbinder, Etc.




> thank you. Hush is a great Batman character. 
> 
> ON Gordon living in a penthouse: I am positive he will leave her and live in a shitty apartment, real soon. Be patient.


...How can you be sure? she is still around by the time Bruce becomes Batman in the comics. 

I though Sarah was supposed to be the hot young one. I'm not a fan of the casting there. If they were going to go with older and hispanic, as shallow as it sounds, how about someone with a bit more of an Eva Longoria thing going on? 

Hush is an unlikable character, even Dini can't make people like an unlikable character.

----------


## heyevaxx

Ok, I don't know if this should be in the Gotham thread or the Catwoman Appreciation thread. Gotham it is!

I think Camren Bicondova has been great as Selina, what a casting win. She had the "moves" as in great body language and facial expressions in episode 1 but no lines. And in episode 2 she finally speaks and for a new actress I think she did an excellent job. It'll be interesting to see her grow her acting skills surrounded with a big budget, high quality cast and crew.

But, a little trivia or maybe a trivial point.

Up until the 2014.09.29 video "Selina Kyle | GOTHAM" Camren has always said in interviews that Julie Newmar was her fave Catwoman.

Now, with this new video Camren says:
*"Michelle Pfeiffer was like the greatest Catwoman ever.  She's the one who really sticks out to me. And it's actually kind of crazy cause all my life people have told me that I could play her daughter."*

I got into comics because of Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman performance so I couldn't agree more.

It's interesting that there's been a flip flop. I'm not thinking this is just Camren here, I'm quite sure Fox PR is directing what she says. This show is so heavily promoted and advertised I think every utterance by anyone involved is carefully crafted.

So I wonder: did Fox PR tell Camren "Say you like Julie Newmar so we don't start a pre-pilot Burton vs Nolan fan war and then after your performance is accepted you can say you like Pfeiffer."

Does Camren have a preference either way? I can't really imagine her liking (or dis-liking) Newmar since the 60s pre-date when Camren's parents were born. It would have to be a Pfeiffer/Hathaway decision since Halle Berry's movie was so terrible (and she didn't even play Selina Kyle).

Also of note, Camren mentioned the "you look so much like Michelle Pfeiffer" thing in this video. That's gotta be something of a pain for her since she has to want to be her own person and not just known for looking like someone else, albeit a famous, beautiful actress who defined the Catwoman character on the big screen.

All in all, Camren's doing a great job as a new 15 year old actress in the spotlight. So no matter how real, planned or flip-floppy these comments are, I'm really impressed by her composure and performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sLG5lqzk00#t=1m10s *<< click this link to go directly to the Pfeiffer quote*

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I feel like the second episode probably gave us a better idea of how an average episode will go.  Notice how they weren't too crazy with the villain references and they're developing some side stories with Montoya and Allen as well as Penguin before they cross Gordon's path again.  Setting up the pieces better than the pilot did.  Loved Falcone exerting his control by visiting Fish.  It's great seeing Gordon and Bullock together.




> If anyone has ever been to Bridgeport, CT- that on a larger scale is Gotham. Just the shitty damn place- that you have to go through on the metro. Every time I go through there (which isn't much)- I stop and and say hello to Batsy.


Aw come on, man, you too?  I remember when they revealed Gotham was in Connecticut on Young Justice people were speculating it's really Bridgeport.  I know you said larger scale, but our downtown isn't nowhere near as huge as Gotham's, there aren't tall buildings and crazy architecture to fight villains through.  Bridgeport's a lot more than what you see on a train ride from New Haven to New York.




> Now that could really make for an interesting turn of events in the pages of a Batman comic. Fish Mooney organizing criminal activity from jail? That could actually be pretty neat because here in the Atlanta, GA region we've had a lot of prison bust where the law enforcement system has been cracking down on crime operations that are being run from by the incarcerated kingpins. It seems to be a real problem here in Atlanta and the surrounding suburbs and now the gangs are even getting involved. I wonder if Gotham, The Flash and Arrow would ever cross over in such a way? I wouldn't be surprised if Suicide Squad might show up in Arrow or The Flash. We've already had both Deathstroke and Harley Quinn in Arrow.


The Flash and Arrow, sure, but Gotham, probably not.  They all take place in the present so you can't even say Gotham is a prequel.  Bruce is too young, Harley is already active on Arrow, and then there's the case of Dollmaker.




> Well, there is that, but I'll disagree that I should "just get over it". Alfred is a character that's lasted over a half century because of certain aspects of his character that have remained pretty true across all media. Why they decided to go with what appears to be a different angle on the character makes no sense to me. I'll say the same with Bullock - one of the intriguing things about the character is that he actually is a protagonist despite what you expect. Is the Bullock you've seen here someone you would root for?


What do you suppose is the worst thing Bullock has done?  He's not the one shooting bums, it just might be negligence/laziness.  I'm rooting for him to respect Jim so much and to believe he has a fighting chance of turning Gotham around that he becomes a clean cop eventually.




> Did anyone else find Alfred being creeped out by Bruce sneaking up on them absolutely hilarious? I don't know..I just had that whole image of Bruce as Batman disappearing on people...


I loved it.  All it needed was Jim telling Bruce not to make a habit of sneaking up on him like that.




> One thing I am concerned about is that 3-4 seasons down the line Bruce and Selina are no longer going to look like kids they are going to look like 16 or 17 year olds and I feel at that point the show is going to face some very difficult challenges in trying to keep the focus on the GCPD and not on the evolution of The Batman and Catwoman characters.


That's part of the fun.  They could easily do that and keep the cops central.  I mean, maybe Gordon becomes so influential on Bruce's life that he tries becoming a cop before going the Batman route.

----------


## El Sombrero

Not sure how long I'm going to stick with this show.  I think the cinematography is stunning and the direction is solid, but the acting is really hit or miss, and the writing is often just bad.  I really dislike how not subtle everything is.  Like, this guy ASKS RIDDLES ALL THE TIME, this little girl is named Ivy and HAS A LOT OF PLANTS, this guy WALKS LIKE A PENGUIN AND PEOPLE SAY HE LOOKS LIKE A PENGUIN, it's just obnoxious.  It feels like poorly done fanservice and like you're treating the fans like idiots.

I don't really feel any connection to Gordon or Bruce.  I like Selina and think the Fish Mooney vs Falcone storyline is probably the most interesting plotline of the show.  The actor who plays Penguin is doing a really great job but the writing for his character often demeans what he's doing.  The Harvey Bullock character is probably the best mix of writing and acting where both actually work well together.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Are they gonna revisit him and Renee as a couple?


Might be fun if he asked her out and she shot him down. The actress told AfterEllen that she's playing her as already 'out'.

“Gotham” exclusive: Victoria Cartagena talks playing a lesbian detective with mad swagger

*AE: I’m familiar with the many incarnations of Renee Montoya in DC’s comic books and cartoons, but will you tell me a little bit about Gotham’s version?*
VC: I think what you’ll see with her personality and her life are actually really consistent with what’s in the comic book universe. She is a detective in the Major Crimes Unit of the Gotham City Police Department and she is a lesbian character. She definitely has a history with James Gordon’s fiance. It’s not even a big deal that she’s gay; she just is. So she won’t be going through that “Half a Life” arc from Gotham Central.

_(Comic nerd note: The “Half a Life” arc of Gotham Central deals with the personal and professional fallout Renee suffers when she’s revealed as a closeted lesbian and framed for the murder of the guy who supposedly outed her. It was written by Greg Rucka—you know him from Batwoman: Elegy—and you should definitely read it because it is sexy and intense and perfect.)_

*AE: That was actually my next question. I was going to ask if Renee is already out and if being a lesbian is going to be a hinderance to her career, but you’re telling me, awesomely, that it just is what it is.*
VC: It absolutely is what it is. GCPD has a lot of problems, but that’s not one of them. They’re pretty accepting.

There's also an interview with FoxNews Latino, she's a big Batman fan.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ent...seen-them-all/
_Victoria Cartagena loves Batman.

She grew up watching the old films of the Caped Crusader, devouring the comics and even spent many weeks doing chores around the house to raise enough money to buy a knock-off TV shirt with the iconic bat symbol._

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Might be fun if he asked her out and she shot him down. The actress told AfterEllen that she's playing her as already 'out'.
> 
> “Gotham” exclusive: Victoria Cartagena talks playing a lesbian detective with mad swagger
> 
> *AE: I’m familiar with the many incarnations of Renee Montoya in DC’s comic books and cartoons, but will you tell me a little bit about Gotham’s version?*
> VC: I think what you’ll see with her personality and her life are actually really consistent with what’s in the comic book universe. She is a detective in the Major Crimes Unit of the Gotham City Police Department and she is a lesbian character. She definitely has a history with James Gordon’s fiance. It’s not even a big deal that she’s gay; she just is. So she won’t be going through that “Half a Life” arc from Gotham Central.
> 
> _(Comic nerd note: The “Half a Life” arc of Gotham Central deals with the personal and professional fallout Renee suffers when she’s revealed as a closeted lesbian and framed for the murder of the guy who supposedly outed her. It was written by Greg Rucka—you know him from Batwoman: Elegy—and you should definitely read it because it is sexy and intense and perfect.)_
> 
> ...


It's a bit hard for me to see her that way. In the comics the character wasn't much more than a latin female, so it wasn't outrageous to get her ruckarized into a leasbian as well. However, the BTAS version was superior in that she was all about contrast with Batman and Bullock. She was a religious widow, proceeded by the book with common sense and wasn't a mess. 

POV BTAS.jpg

----------


## inisideguy

> Might be fun if he asked her out and she shot him down. The actress told AfterEllen that she's playing her as already 'out'.
> 
> “Gotham” exclusive: Victoria Cartagena talks playing a lesbian detective with mad swagger
> 
> *AE: I’m familiar with the many incarnations of Renee Montoya in DC’s comic books and cartoons, but will you tell me a little bit about Gotham’s version?*
> VC: I think what you’ll see with her personality and her life are actually really consistent with what’s in the comic book universe. She is a detective in the Major Crimes Unit of the Gotham City Police Department and she is a lesbian character. She definitely has a history with James Gordon’s fiance. It’s not even a big deal that she’s gay; she just is. So she won’t be going through that “Half a Life” arc from Gotham Central.
> 
> _(Comic nerd note: The “Half a Life” arc of Gotham Central deals with the personal and professional fallout Renee suffers when she’s revealed as a closeted lesbian and framed for the murder of the guy who supposedly outed her. It was written by Greg Rucka—you know him from Batwoman: Elegy—and you should definitely read it because it is sexy and intense and perfect.)_
> 
> ...


 FoxNews.Latino? Who would have thunk lol

----------


## The Red Monk

> It's a bit hard for me to see her that way. In the comics the character wasn't much more than a latin female, so it wasn't outrageous to get her ruckarized into a leasbian as well. However, the BTAS version was superior in that she was all about contrast with Batman and Bullock. She was a religious widow, proceeded by the book with common sense and wasn't a mess. 
> 
> POV BTAS.jpg


Huh. Guess I'm not the only one who wasn't much of a fan of Rucka's take on Montoya's character. Rucka's version also came off as colder than _B:TAS_' version, which I didn't like very much.

Also, LOL at the "Motivation: Orphan, Widow, Jerk" part of the chart. And the View/POV part.

----------


## Tupiaz

> It's a bit hard for me to see her that way. In the comics the character wasn't much more than a latin female, so it wasn't outrageous to get her ruckarized into a leasbian as well. However, the BTAS version was superior in that she was all about contrast with Batman and Bullock. She was a religious widow, proceeded by the book with common sense and wasn't a mess. 
> 
> POV BTAS.jpg


Because latin women aren't homosexuals? 

The chart clearly doesn't work for the Gotham show Bullock. In Gotham he is a dirty cop unless the do something about what he is doing.

----------


## Tendrin

> Because latin women aren't homosexuals? 
> 
> The chart clearly doesn't work for the Gotham show Bullock. In Gotham he is a dirty cop unless the do something about what he is doing.


To be fair, I don't think he implied they couldn't be. Just that the character hadn't been established as much more than a latina police officer. That said, if I'm being honest, I was never fond of what Rucka did with the character, no matter how good Half a Life was. Something about having both Maggie /and/ Montoya being gay irked me, in the sense that I felt it had some unfortunate implications. And that's not even getting into the whole mess that turning her in to the Question was.

----------


## The Red Monk

> To be fair, I don't think he implied they couldn't be. Just that the character hadn't been established as much more than a latina police officer. That said, if I'm being honest, I was never fond of what Rucka did with the character, no matter how good Half a Life was. Something about having both Maggie /and/ Montoya being gay irked me, in the sense that I felt it *had some unfortunate implications*. And that's not even getting into the whole mess that turning her in to the Question was.


_Now_ you've piqued my curiosity.

Could you elaborate a bit?

----------


## Tendrin

> _Now_ you've piqued my curiosity.
> 
> Could you elaborate a bit?


There's a certain trend to paint women who have certain characteristics, or engage in typically 'male' professions, in a certain way. And I feel making both Montoya /and/ Sawyer gay reinforced a /different/ and unfortunate stereotype.

----------


## PretenderNX01

As a gay guy, sometimes there just are things that gay people are drawn to.  :Stick Out Tongue:  If you see an atypical man who loves fashion, it's not outside the realm of possibility he has a boyfriend. Tough jobs do attract gay women, there are some in the WNBA and so on. Not every tomboy or female-adventurer is going to be gay but it's truthful to acknowledge they are there.

Even now, we have two lesbians on the police force in comics. Two. That's not that many (you can count a third in law enforcement, sort of, with Batwoman). Does that mean her coming out in the comics was handled well? Probably not as they never really are but following writers tend to make things better and adaptions like Gotham can treat it as a part of her and not her defining trait which is cool. Being a lesbian doesn't mean being a mess or negate the possibility of having spiritual or religious beliefs and pride in her Latina heritage.

I don't recall her being a widow on the Animated series, Wiki says the show bible said it but it was never used on screen. Mind you she could have been with a female officer who was killed. I remember she worked with Batman and didn't seem that skeptical of him in BTAS.

----------


## Tendrin

> As a gay guy, sometimes there just are things that gay people are drawn to.  If you see an atypical man who loves fashion, it's not outside the realm of possibility he has a boyfriend. Tough jobs do attract gay women, there are some in the WNBA and so on. Not every tomboy or female-adventurer is going to be gay but it's truthful to acknowledge they are there.
> 
> Even now, we have two lesbians on the police force in comics. Two. That's not that many (you can count a third in law enforcement, sort of, with Batwoman). Does that mean her coming out in the comics was handled well? Probably not as they never really are but following writers tend to make things better and adaptions like Gotham can treat it as a part of her and not her defining trait which is cool. Being a lesbian doesn't mean being a mess or negate the possibility of having spiritual or religious beliefs and pride in her Latina heritage.
> 
> I don't recall her being a widow on the Animated series, Wiki says the show bible said it but it was never used on screen. Mind you she could have been with a female officer who was killed. I remember she worked with Batman and didn't seem that skeptical of him in BTAS.


I don't think we can discount the prominence of the characters, though. Can you name off any other female police officers who have the attention, name recognition, and more of either Sawyer and Montoya? I can't. At all. And what I stated is also a thing, and I feel it's a bad thing. It is certainly, however, a better problem to have than the previous ones. I am friends with a female police officer. She does a tough, demanding job. She enjoys it. She is not married. She is not interested in women, but there are expectations that she must /obviously/ be gay. It's a different problem and stereotype. That probably goes for most female police officers. Women are drawn to tough jobs and can do them just as well as men. It doesn't make them less feminine or gay, imo. I've known plenty of effeminate guys who aren't gay too. XD

So I feel that it's an unfortunate implication, but that implication is still a better problem to have than the previous problem, easily.

----------


## Hoosier X

> Dini did plenty to "fix" Hush and made him one of the best bat rogues prior to the reboot. Heart of Hush/Hush Money/House of Hush is some of my favorite stuff written.


I fully agree on Heart of Hush and about Dini fixing Hush. I was dabbling in comics again after being out for 8 years and among the first back issues I latched on to were the Detective Comics issues of Heart of Hush. I thought they were great! (I also got the Faces of Evil issues.) It was one of the things that got me back into comics for a while. I didn't even know Hush was a hated character for a long time. (When I read Hush by Loeb and Lee, I understood where all that came from. Nice art, though.)

I wouldn't mind seeing Tommy Elliott in Gotham. I'd rather see somebody who's supposed to be in Bruce's childhood rather than all these random cameos of characters who will be IMPORTANT later. (It reminds me of those projects where an existing mythology gets an elaborate retcon where all the characters have known each other since high school or even earlier. In a way, Gotham is like Muppet Babies.)

----------


## Dabrikishaw

New episode is on. Balloon Man makes his first kill.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

"The Balloonman" was not as bad as the last episode.  I actually liked the swashbuckling scene with Alfred and Bruce.  Nice to see David Zayas from Dexter show up.  I hope he's a series regular.  Dan Bakkedahl who played Balloonman was pretty funny in Legit on FX.  The Penguin scenes continue to be good and I wasn't expecting that ending!

----------


## tabo61

Cobblepot showing up at Gordon's place was awsome.

----------


## InformationGeek

Saw it, watched it, enjoyed it.  Another enjoyable episode with a lot of good moments to it (loved that scene where Bullock was getting the crap kicked out of him) and there were some surprisingly good quotes in there: 




> Everybody has to matter or nobody matters.


that was a good one.  Really dug the ending.  Great stuff if a bit silly (good to know Gotham was over the top even at the beginning).

----------


## JasonTodd428

I agree. I'm continuing to enjoy this show and that ending. Can't wait for the next episode.

----------


## blackbolt396

Three episodes in ,I'm hooked the show is getting its legs.

----------


## Pinsir

Balloon Man is confirmed for greatest Batman villain.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Balloon Man is confirmed for greatest Batman villain.


As someone with a fear of heights, just the thought of being chained to a weather balloon makes me sweat.  :EEK!:

----------


## dropkickjake

Easily the best episode so far. I actually enjoyed this one.

----------


## magicallypuzzled

> As someone with a fear of heights, just the thought of being chained to a weather balloon makes me sweat.


yeah i am actually not sure i want to watch this episode for exactly that reason.

----------


## Tupiaz

How many catch that Lamond killed Lt. Cranston covered in a scarf was a reference to Lamont Cranston (aka the Shadow one of the inspirations for Batman)?

----------


## JohnnyGoodboy

Loving the show so far could do without Jada-Pinkett Smith's Eartha Kitt tribute act though.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Yeah most people are saying Jada is hamming it up too much but I think her scenes are literally the best part of the show.
Not really a fan of renee turning into the man hating lesbian trying to break up Barbara and Jim because raisins lol

----------


## InformationGeek

> Not really a fan of renee turning into the man hating lesbian trying to break up Barbara and Jim because raisins lol


She's not a man-hating lesbian (if she was, you would see an animosity between her and her partner), she just doesn't want to see Barbara with Jim because she believes Jim killed the Penguin and is corrupt (in this city, it's not a far of theory considering the public officials).

----------


## Tupiaz

> Yeah most people are saying Jada is hamming it up too much but I think her scenes are literally the best part of the show.
> Not really a fan of renee turning into the man hating lesbian trying to break up Barbara and Jim because raisins lol


I think she does acutally don't like Jim and think he is a bad cop so it has nothing to do with her being a "man hating lesbian". Is there unresolved issue about their relationship? Sure but that doesn't make her a man hating lesbian.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I thought Barbara pinned the tail on the donkey when she said she seemed to be out to destroy Gordon because she loved him. I guess man hating lesbian is too strong but renee is being a jerk
She seemed to be immediately antagonistic towards him (its partly because he's dating barbara now) and first holds a grudge on him for killing Mario pepper(a criminal who shot at him as said by Bullock)  
Now she thinks he's killed Penguin and is this out of control cop under falcone but not taking this to IAA but just antagonizing Gordon and flirting with his girlfriend

Yeah I'm not liking how they are portraying renee, too much lady Macbeth for me

----------


## Maxpower00044

Thought this episode was pretty bad. The 'vigilante' (balloonman? Really?) was lame as hell. This show is already starting to lose my interest.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

Yeah, this latest one dragged on for me. There were some brief good points (Selina and the sewer, Gordon's "everyone has to matter" speech, some of the Bruce/Alfred bit) but a lot of it seemed like exposition and set-up for future plot lines, leaving the main plot of the episode (the balloon man) a little thread-bare. I get the message they were trying to go for in regards to vigilante justice, but, meh.

----------


## gsnake007

episode was solid just dont like Montoya or allen dragging it down guy who plays penguin is killing it in every scene

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Cobblepot showing up at Gordon's place was awsome.


That was a great ending. I think this was a bit more serious episode (despite the wackier premise of a Baloonman). I liked the character development it gave Bruce/Alfred and Renee/Barbara. Also confirmed it's Barbara's place as Renee wouldn't have a key to Jim's home.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I thought Barbara pinned the tail on the donkey when she said she seemed to be out to destroy Gordon because she loved him. I guess man hating lesbian is too strong but renee is being a jerk


Jealousy happens regardless of gender. Plus she thinks her ex is with someone dirty and may feel responsible for whatever went down when Rene wasn't sober so she wants to "save" Barbara. Oswald showing up might give Jim the chance to explain what all went down to Barbara.




> Can you name off any other female police officers who have the attention, name recognition, and more of either Sawyer and Montoya? I can't. At all.


Well I can't name to many male ones either. Bullock, Gordon and...  :Stick Out Tongue: 
If you mean in media in general, all the women in Law and Order (minus the one blond girl)

----------


## Tupiaz

> I thought Barbara pinned the tail on the donkey when she said she seemed to be out to destroy Gordon because she loved him. I guess man hating lesbian is too strong but renee is being a jerk
> She seemed to be immediately antagonistic towards him (its partly because he's dating barbara now) and first holds a grudge on him for killing Mario pepper(a criminal who shot at him as said by Bullock)  
> Now she thinks he's killed Penguin and is this out of control cop under falcone but not taking this to IAA but just antagonizing Gordon and flirting with his girlfriend
> 
> Yeah I'm not liking how they are portraying renee, too much lady Macbeth for me


No. Gordon got heat because Bullock is know to be a dirty cop (he should have been Flass) and therefore has mistrust against Gordon because he is not going against his partner.

----------


## Kid A

Oh come on, the didn't even bother to change the name of Water Street in Gotham.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

I just finished watching the latest episode of 'Gotham' and it was quite solid. The ending was certainly solid gold. The Penguin (Cobblepot) showing up at Gordon's apartment was just unexpectedly good. My younger sister totally loved the whole 'Balloonman' thing as it reminded her of Pixar's Up but in my opinion it reminded me of Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban for obvious reasons. The bonding between Alfred and Bruce is definitely good watching and I like how the cover-up of the the lies and dishonesty of the GCPD is unraveling. The show is certainly worthy. Selina Kyle continues to be the esoteric Harper Row and I like that. I'm definitely looking forward to watching 'The Flash' tonight on The CW.

----------


## Kid A

So Balloon Man was dressed like the Shadow and killed a guy named Cranston?  Coupled with Gordon's line about vigilantes, these writers really don't know subtlety, but it's a nice narrative I guess.  The balloon gimmick was way too silly to take seriously though I guess that sort of works in the quasi-camp tone this show has going.

By the way this is probably my favorite version of Penguin ever.  I'd love if someone portrayed current day Penguin with a nod to the idea that he started out this way.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Loved this episode. Felt a lot more evenly paced like they are starting to find their legs. Wish there had been some Nygma though.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> So Balloon Man was dressed like the Shadow and killed a guy named Cranston?  Coupled with Gordon's line about vigilantes ... The balloon gimmick was way too silly to take seriously though I guess that sort of works in the quasi-camp tone this show has going.
> 
> By the way this is probably my favorite version of Penguin ever.  I'd love if someone portrayed current day Penguin with a nod to the idea that he started out this way.


Gotham City and Batman's universe have always had a level of campyness, quirky and sometimes even bizarre and that's all for the best in my opinion. The Batman franchise is at it's best when it straddles and combines humor, the quirky and the dark. I loved the Tim Burton Batman films, I loved Adam West Batman, I love Beware The Batman, I enjoy the Arkham video games and I certainly enjoyed Batman The Animated Series but I disdain Nolan's awful Bat films.

I certainly agree with you regarding Robin Taylor's embodiment of the Penguin but for me the breakout performance is from Carmen Bicondova as she really channel's Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman.

----------


## Mace Dolex

> Not sure how long I'm going to stick with this show.  I think the cinematography is stunning and the direction is solid, but the acting is really hit or miss, and the writing is often just bad.  I really dislike how not subtle everything is.  Like, this guy ASKS RIDDLES ALL THE TIME, this little girl is named Ivy and HAS A LOT OF PLANTS, this guy WALKS LIKE A PENGUIN AND PEOPLE SAY HE LOOKS LIKE A PENGUIN, it's just obnoxious.  It feels like poorly done fanservice and like you're treating the fans like idiots.


Here are few more:

- the college football all-star using steroids is Bane
- the weird emo kid that likes to cut himself with a knife is Zsaz
- the two portly twins that are always picked on are Tweedledum and Tweedledee
- the kid with the weirdly shaped cranium is Eggheah (Batman '66 reference)

----------


## Vic Vega

This show's tone is interesting-its set itself firmly in between Batman66 and the Nolan films without picking a side.

Its Violent, Gothic camp.

So they can have Henchpersons dressed like 40's era Salvation Army types kidnapping children to do god knows what with them.
Or a Priest accused of moslestation being killed by a Weather Baloon.

The most interesting thing to me, is how hard the show is selling the central concept of how utterly screwed up Gotham is.

We are seeing a Gotham so jacked up, so cartoonishly  corrupt, that Bruce Wayne's eventual decision to be become a vigilante 
and Gordon's decision to help him will seem reasonable.

I can see Future Gordon thinking "Batshaped Assault weapons. Well, its not like anything else worked."

----------


## godisawesome

This. 

This Gotham genuinely feels like it needs a Batman. And the cartooniness is perfect for my sense of humor.

----------


## Kusanagi

It's been said earlier, but I feel it was the perfect description. Out of of the various Batman incarnations in mainstream media it most reminds me of Tim Burton.

It's violent, it's serious, but it's bizarre with a hint of camp. So far I really like it.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's been said earlier, but I feel it was the perfect description. Out of of the various Batman incarnations in mainstream media it most reminds me of Tim Burton.
> 
> It's violent, it's serious, but it's bizarre with a hint of camp. So far I really like it.


It really reminds me of Tim Nolan (or Christopher Burton, if you like).

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Gotham City and Batman's universe have always had a level of campyness, quirky and sometimes even bizarre and that's all for the best in my opinion. The Batman franchise is at it's best when it straddles and combines humor, the quirky and the dark. I loved the Tim Burton Batman films, I loved Adam West Batman, I love Beware The Batman, I enjoy the Arkham video games and I certainly enjoyed Batman The Animated Series but I disdain Nolan's awful Bat films.


Thats it. I am going to make the necessary arrangements with God : You are going to Heaven. Going to contact you soon when its done.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

> Thats it. I am going to make the necessary arrangements with God : You are going to Heaven. Going to contact you soon when its done.


Why thank you Saintly Kind Sir! I truly appreciate it. Let's see? Ebola, Taxes, Mysterious Baby Killing Viruses, ISIS Terrorist Cells, Police who beat up on minorities? I certainly could use a ticket to Heaven. Watching Sleepy Hollow, Supernatural and Constantine certainly encourages me to aim to keep my lifestyle and soul in good standing with Providence. To bad I don't know a good neighborhood friendly angel like Castiel  :Wink:

----------


## Flash Gordon

Yeah this show is terrible. It's sad since it has so many great actors to work with but man is it bad. The entire fault lies on the network TV writers. This is the only network show I watch, are they all like this? 

It can't tell if it wants to be gritty and noir or Adam West with gore. Just really, really lame TV.

----------


## godisawesome

Why can't it be both? I enjoy being able to laugh at Cobblepott being a 60s style villain spiced up with a 2000s style murderous streak. It makes his scenes darkly humorous; he's still a somewhat pathetic and pitiful character, but he is by no means harmless or overly sympathetic, and since he's actually been a protagonist these last few weeks, it makes his scenes more enjoyable.

And the mixture of noir with "camp" or at the very least a very snarky sense of humor is a nice one. It fits Bullock perfectly and makes Gordon the straight man to the chaos around him, which is good, because if they want to sell any kind of Gordon-Essen style hijinks, they should build up his morality first before putting some dents in it. And that's the thing that keeps me pondering; the actress playing Barbara looks much more like Sara Essen from the comics, and Essen on the show seems like a chief stereotype. But this episode they tarnished Barb a bit, so maybe we'll see Gordon's coming in  by while.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Gotham City and Batman's universe have always had a level of campyness, quirky and sometimes even bizarre and that's all for the best in my opinion. The Batman franchise is at it's best when it straddles and combines humor, the quirky and the dark. I loved the Tim Burton Batman films, I loved Adam West Batman, I love Beware The Batman, I enjoy the Arkham video games and I certainly enjoyed Batman The Animated Series but I disdain Nolan's awful Bat films.
> 
> I certainly agree with you regarding Robin Taylor's embodiment of the Penguin but for me the breakout performance is from Carmen Bicondova as she really channel's Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman.


Camp and quality are not correlated either way.  When it comes to Batman, the thing is, that as lovely and well acted and produced as the 66 show is, the best writing so far has been on the side of the straight and postmodern versions. So far, the best comic book stories are Year One, DKR, Killing Joke and the likes. The best movies are Nolan's (even if they are not flawless). If by camp, you mean Gotham and Burton levels, I'd say Morrison has evened up the field. Now, I don't really favor either version. While I'm as much of Dozier fan as I'm a Nolan fan, for me, the ultimate Batman is Timm's. If you take the Batman of Dini, Englehart, Conway and, to a lesser degree, O'Neil, Breyfogle and Year One, that's the one for me, right there. Even if the other versions are fun. The stories I dislike tend to come from Alan Grant wannabes who, lacking his talent, put all their focus on making Arkham Asylum look like some nauseating slashing film. I find the war on crime a lot more interesting than that.     

As a Penguin fan (to the point that he is my favorite Batman villain), I love the spotlight he is going to get. It might actually inspire his Killing Joke equivalent if Batman editors bet again on crazy levels of talent. This version is growing on me. 

Can't see the Pfeiffer thing beyond the haircut and the cat type of face. She was a dorky-turned-sexy secretary, his one is a street rat, like Hathaway.   

The last Gotham episode was a bit better than both of the previous.




> Why can't it be both? I enjoy being able to laugh at Cobblepott being a 60s style villain spiced up with a 2000s style murderous streak. It makes his scenes darkly humorous; he's still a somewhat pathetic and pitiful character, but he is by no means harmless or overly sympathetic, and since he's actually been a protagonist these last few weeks, it makes his scenes more enjoyable.


The 60s Penguin wasn't pathetic. He basically pulled whatever he wanted. To the point that the Joker actually relied on his talent to seduce women and Mayor Linseed got crushed against him.

As for Essen... Seing her age, I started to think that she might have a daughter called Sarah Essen as well.

----------


## SXVA

> Gotham City and Batman's universe have always had a level of campyness, quirky and sometimes even bizarre and that's all for the best in my opinion. The Batman franchise is at it's best when it straddles and combines humor, the quirky and the dark. I loved the Tim Burton Batman films, I loved Adam West Batman, I love Beware The Batman, I enjoy the Arkham video games and I certainly enjoyed Batman The Animated Series but I disdain Nolan's awful Bat films.
> 
> I certainly agree with you regarding Robin Taylor's embodiment of the Penguin but for me the breakout performance is from Carmen Bicondova as she really channel's Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman.


Agree, i like how it's establishing Gotham as this bizarre, quirky somewhat insane place and not just dark... that's what sets Gotham apart from a more realistic dark portrayal of New York for example, where it can have someone like "Balloon Man", or those two quirky villains from last episode.

Enjoyed the episode, the part where they were interviewing people saying "the balloon man will get you, come get my landlord, etc" had me rolling.  And the corrupt LT was hilarious...

Fish Mooney was the only part that dragged a bit for me... Bullock, Selina, Bruce, Penguin, Gordon continue to be awesome.

----------


## Godzilla2099

I'm enjoying this show.  Every new episode gets better for me.

My favorites are Falcone and Alfred.  The actors give these characters such a strong presence.

Worst part of the show is easily Montoya.  She acts all high and mighty trying to bring Gordon to 'Justice' when all she really wants is a piece of his fiancee.  Her partner is also an annoying one dimensional character.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I'm enjoying this show.  Every new episode gets better for me.
> 
> My favorites are Falcone and Alfred.  The actors give these characters such a strong presence.
> 
> Worst part of the show is easily Montoya.  She acts all high and mighty trying to bring Gordon to 'Justice' when all she really wants is a piece of his fiancee.  Her partner is also an annoying one dimensional character.


Completely agree. I can't stand Montoya.

----------


## LobsterJohnson

> How many catch that Lamond killed Lt. Cranston covered in a scarf was a reference to Lamont Cranston (aka the Shadow one of the inspirations for Batman)?


I caught that too. I was wondering if anyone else did.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

3 episodes into GOTHAM (aka "BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE") and here's how I feel so far ...

Jim Gordon: Very Good.  Heart of the show.  Liking him a bit more each episode.

Harvey Bullock: Excellent.  Embodiment of this city.  Already prefer him to the B:TAS version.

Fish Mooney: Good.  Definite Eartha Kitt vibe.  Pretty decent amount of camp and menace.

Oswald Cobblepot: Excellent.  Way better than Danny DeVito.  May well one day sit on the Penguin Throne that Burgess Meredith occupies.

Carmine Falcone: Very Good.  He radiates dangerous power and willful intelligence.

Barbara Keane: Very Bad.  This is supposed to be Babs' future mom?  Spends an inordinate amount of her screen-time bare-legged and barefoot (no pants).  

Sarah Essen: Meh.  OK with the race-swap.  Not sure about the aging up, tho.  Can't see Gordon eventually hooking up with her, but who knows?

Crispus Allen: Bad.  All I've seen him do is smile.

Renee Montoya: Horrible.  Potentially home-wrecking intruder.  Least likable portrayal ever. 

Edward Nygma: Bad.  Way too much Jim Carrey in this interpretation.

Ivy Pepper: Very Bad.  Changes are too drastic and too much on-the-nose imagery.  

Selina Kyle: Very Good.  "Catgirl" works for me.  Like that she is a few years older than expected.

Alfred Pennyworth: Excellent.  I love this version of Alfred as the foster father who both barks and hugs as necessary (Batman's Jonathan Kent).

Bruce Wayne: Excellent.  Soul of the show.  I can totally see this kid one day becoming Batman.       

Overall, very satisfied with what I've seen so far from GOTHAM.  Some bumps, but the product is good.  Bring on episode 4!

----------


## godisawesome

Montoya and Allen feel out of place with the rest of this last episode. They and Gordon all occupy the straight nosed hero trope, but Gordon at least has Bullock, allowing him to play the straight man to Bullock's comic crooked cop. It gives him more depth and a greater oppurtunity to act and react. Montoya and Allen don't have that, so they come off as wooden even if the actor's aren't. Gordon gets to have Bullock call him "a monkey riding a racehorse," watch Bullock get beat up by a rather tall lady, and gets the whacky case to focus on. All that gives him something to react to, while Montoya and Allen have their faux-IA storyline played seriously, so they pretty much have to act like their on L&O and never have an emotion.

By the way, I heard that  Leslie Thompkins might be on the show soon, as a peer to Gordon and Barabra, maybe so she can take Sara Essen's place as Gordon's temptation.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> 3 episodes into GOTHAM (aka "BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE") and here's how I feel so far ...
> 
> Jim Gordon: Very Good.  Heart of the show.  Liking him a bit more each episode.
> 
> Harvey Bullock: Excellent.  Embodiment of this city.  Already prefer him to the B:TAS version.
> 
> Fish Mooney: Good.  Definite Eartha Kitt vibe.  Pretty decent amount of camp and menace.
> 
> Oswald Cobblepot: Excellent.  Way better than Danny DeVito.  May well one day sit on the Penguin Throne that Burgess Meredith occupies.
> ...


Overall I agree. But claiming superiority over previous too actors like DeVito, Costanzo is too far fetched for now. Nitpicking: Alfred doesn't suck as hard, but isn't great either, Indiferenet to Pepper (hate the name), indifferent to Bruce, and I'm not big on Selina's age. Too bad they didn't look at Gorshin  and Bruce Timm's work before doing this show.

----------


## The Red Monk

> Completely agree. I can't stand Montoya.


Seconded. They made Montoya really unlikeable. And Crispus Allen might as well be a piece of wood.

----------


## Knightsilver

> I'm enjoying this show.  Every new episode gets better for me.
> 
> My favorites are Falcone and Alfred.  The actors give these characters such a strong presence.
> 
> Worst part of the show is easily Montoya.  She acts all high and mighty trying to bring Gordon to 'Justice' when all she really wants is a piece of his fiancee.  Her partner is also an annoying one dimensional character.


Agreed.  I'm hoping against hope that Montoya will cross Falcone and "disappear".

----------


## Tupiaz

> I caught that too. I was wondering if anyone else did.


I think small easter eggs like that is cool. There seems to be some in Gotham however not as many as in Flash.

----------


## ispacehead

I love this show. 

Seems like it's just getting better each episode.

Not crazy about the actresses playing the forced relationship between Montoya and Barbara, but everything else about the show is so good it doesn't bother me so much.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I love this show. 
> 
> Seems like it's just getting better each episode.
> 
> Not crazy about the actresses playing the forced relationship between Montoya and Barbara, but everything else about the show is so good it doesn't bother me so much.


Now that you said it, Montoya, Barbara and Sarah are the least interesting aspect of the show.

----------


## ispacehead

> Now that you said it, Montoya, Barbara and Sarah are the least interesting aspect of the show.


Strikes me as a forced storyline. 

The actresses' performances don't help in the least. The girl who plays Montoya is stiff as a board, and Barbara is just a little too sugary-ditzy-damsely.  I didn't even realize that was supposed to be Essen. She's pretty awful too.

Really a minor nitpick though at this point.


I did like that Barbara made the anonymous call to the police last episode.

----------


## Tupiaz

> 3 episodes into GOTHAM (aka "BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE") and here's how I feel so far ...
> 
> Harvey Bullock: Excellent.  Embodiment of this city.  Already prefer him to the B:TAS version.
> 
> Oswald Cobblepot: Excellent.  Way better than Danny DeVito.  May well one day sit on the Penguin Throne that Burgess Meredith occupies.
> 
> Edward Nygma: Bad.  Way too much Jim Carrey in this interpretation.
> 
> Ivy Pepper: Very Bad.  Changes are too drastic and too much on-the-nose imagery.
> ...


Harvey Bullock is way to corrupt in the series so far. He don't seem like a straight but though cop which has always been his. Style he might not like Batman but that doesn't mean he is a bad cop. Could you see Batman wanted to help Bullock like he did in a Bullet for Bullock? I can't.

Even though I like this version of the Oswarld we need to see more of him (which we will in the next episode):




See Penguin with some kind of power is going to be interesting.

We have seen why to little to Edward and Ivy at this point. Was Ivy's connection to the show forced? Yes, it was. However all we have seen is a kid that likes plants, nothing more, nothing less. Edward being attached to the police force isn't new (however the motives are). That he is not being repsected and being seen as a freak can very well be the reason why he goes against and turned him self into a criminal. 

Even though I like the kid playing Bruce I would like him to be put more in the background a let the show focus on the city, the crime and so on. What is Bruce going to do? Solve crimes at the age of ten? Batgod brought to new dimensions.

----------


## ispacehead

> Even though I like the kid playing Bruce I would like him to be put more in the background a let the show focus on the city, the crime and so on. What is Bruce going to do? Solve crimes at the age of ten? Batgod brought to new dimensions.


I like the idea of him simply observing and absorbing info. 

Obviously Gordon is Batman in this series, so he'll get all the meat, though I expect Bruce will have adventures of his own somewhere down the line.

Anybody catch that scene with Gordon suiting up? Seemed mighty similar to cinematic portrayals of the Bat getting ready for action.

----------


## MykeHavoc

I'm really finding myself most drawn to Oswald's scenes the most. He's absolutely terrifying. Its nice to see such a longtime yet under utilized rogue be portrayed as a genuine threat. He's smimey, but smart and quick-witted. He allows his pride to be stripped away continually, as long as it keeps him alive and gains him the upper hand in the long-term. He reminds me of John Turturro's character in Miller's Crossing. Actually, it's that, to a "T", as it seems he's about to pull the blackmail angle on Gordon.

----------


## ispacehead

> He reminds me of John Turturro's character in Miller's Crossing. Actually, it's that, to a "T", as it seems he's about to pull the blackmail angle on Gordon.


Good call. 

I love this depiction of Pengy.

His character is probably neck and neck with Gordon for me as favorite.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Harvey Bullock is way to corrupt in the series so far. He don't seem like a straight but though cop which has always been his. Style he might not like Batman but that doesn't mean he is a bad cop. Could you see Batman wanted to help Bullock like he did in a Bullet for Bullock? I can't.


Actually the very first version of Bullock (pre-Crisis) in the comics had him seeming more corrupt than not but reforming after giving Gordon a heart attack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_...cter_biography
I think they're going for a character who gets redeemed through his relationship with James Gordon- his sort of Jiminy Cricket.




> Even though I like the kid playing Bruce I would like him to be put more in the background a let the show focus on the city, the crime and so on. What is Bruce going to do? Solve crimes at the age of ten? Batgod brought to new dimensions.


It's a delicate balance between wanting to give some Bruce Wayne to the bat-fans but not going too far with him. This last ep has him interested in looking for clues even if he isn't finding any and taken with the idea of vigilantes. Also he created his no-kill rule. But they have to take their time with it.




> I did like that Barbara made the anonymous call to the police last episode.


Yeah i'd like them to explore more of that side of Barbara. I think the issue is right not they only have enough story for them as if they were guest stars. It takes time to build up a cast that big. 

After many years Star Trek DS9 had their main cast (Sisko, Jake, Quark, O'brien, Dax, Worf, Kira, Odo, Dr Bashir) as well as regular guests like Rom, Leeta, Nog , the female shapeshifter, Weyoun, Gul Dukat, Garak, Damar, Kai Win, etc but you can't dump all that in the first season.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Granted, I've seen three episodes of GOTHAM and only one of THE FLASH, but for a couple of reasons I'm drawn more to GOTHAM (though I still really like THE FLASH too and will continue to watch it and ARROW as well).

1) The production values on GOTHAM.  This show is fully utilizing a clearly larger budget than its CW counterparts.  The cinematography is great, the colors pop, the imagery is striking.  At times, it looks and feels like a major motion picture.

2) The acting level on GOTHAM.  There have been some definite misfires so far (everything about Renee Montoya, for one), but it kinda seems like this show has a better cast overall than either of the 2 CW shows (outside of the respective leads Stephen Amell and Grant Gustin).  

3) The fact that you can see/hear/feel most of Batman's cinematic past in GOTHAM.  I get a sense of the Adam West Era campiness, a lot of the Tim Burton Era weirdness, some of the Joel Schumacher Era scenery-chewing, a lot of the B:TAS Era atmosphere, and flashes of the Christopher Nolan Era grittiness.  If I had seen the two Batman serials from the 1940s or BIRDS OF PREY, I'd probably find something from those eras too.  

Basically, I think I can see every major Hollywood aspect of Batman reflected in some way on this show, while also seeing that the show brings some original elements to the Batverse.

It's way too early, but if it keeps improving, here's to 10 seasons of GOTHAM, ending with the debut of the Batman!

----------


## ispacehead

> 3) The fact that you can see/hear/feel most of Batman's cinematic past in GOTHAM.  I get a sense of the Adam West Era campiness, a lot of the Tim Burton Era weirdness, some of the Joel Schumacher Era scenery-chewing, a lot of the B:TAS Era atmosphere, and flashes of the Christopher Nolan Era grittiness.  If I had seen the two Batman serials from the 1940s or BIRDS OF PREY, I'd probably find something from those eras too.  
> 
> Basically, I think I can see every major Hollywood aspect of Batman reflected in some way on this show, while also seeing that the show brings some original elements to the Batverse.


It's pretty interesting how they've harkened so much history already in what we've seen so far. 

I'm really impressed by the way this has come together. 

Obviously they hired some people that know their stuff.




> It's way too early, but if it keeps improving, here's to 10 seasons of GOTHAM, ending with the debut of the Batman!


Not to early for me.   :Wink: 

I'm hoping this season is a raging hit.

----------


## Red_11

> ...We have seen why to little to Edward and Ivy at this point...


I disagree with this.  One of the things I disliked about the pilot was the _"let's throw everything and everyone in the mix at once"_ feel of it.  No need to introduce so many characters at once.  I'm pretty content with the focus on Penguin and the other mobsters at this point.




> Even though I like the kid playing Bruce I would like him to be put more in the background a let the show focus on the city, the crime and so on. What is Bruce going to do? Solve crimes at the age of ten? Batgod brought to new dimensions.


This I do agree with.  I suspect that most everyone watching the show already knows what Bruce Wayne's character arc is.  I find him to be one of the least interesting characters on the show.  I'd be fine if he faded into the background and they focused on Gordon, the GCPD and the future bat villains.

Overall I'm still on the fence about this show.  There's potential there, but I wish they would settle on a tone and stick with it.  I'd be happy with either campy _or_ gritty, but the mix of both is off putting for me.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I can't believe this show made me interested in Penguin who was probably my least favorite Batman villain outside of Bane. Well done Gotham.

----------


## The Red Monk

Just out of curiosity, how many episodes is this season supposed to be? 10? 20? 25?

----------


## daningotham

> I love this show. 
> 
> Seems like it's just getting better each episode.
> 
> Not crazy about the actresses playing the forced relationship between Montoya and Barbara, but everything else about the show is so good it doesn't bother me so much.


Totally agree.  I watch all the comic book related shows.  Arrow, Flash, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and Gotham is by far my favorite.  Of course it could be because I'm a Batman guy.  The Penguin is my favorite character in the show.  He is awesome.  Wait, I should say it's my 2nd favorite comic book show behind the Walking Dead.  But it's still awesome. ;-)

----------


## brucekent12

If this show does last (and I hope it does)I imagine Bruce helping on a few cases, maybe helping Gordon see a clue h missed, something like that. Hadn't thought  Pengy might be getting ready to blackmail Jim. That could be interesting.

----------


## MykeHavoc

Ideally, it'd be cool to see this show last long enough for them to do a big finale which mirrors the events of Year One.

----------


## K. Jones

Balloon Man was funny. I think I liked Ep.2 Selina Kyle more, but I don't hate any of the continuing developments, or the on-the-nose "law & order versus vigilantism" stuff cropping up so early. I do think we're getting a little too inside a look at The Roman's dealings, but that said - we're only ever really seeing it from Fish's point of view, not his, so he's still mysterious. I liked Maroni though, quite a bit. A little more of the stereotypical goodfella, the Tony Soprano type, who reminds us that Gotham is in Jersey, capiche? The Roman's a bit more Shakespearean. I'd be interested to see if we'll meet Tony Zucco early or not.

Also nice to see they're not going to make us live with the Gordon/Cobblepot shame-fest for too long. Bullock was still great. Barb was better here. I even liked the vigilante's motive. If they ever get around to something on the level of Judson Caspian the conflict is going to be pretty decent-sized.

----------


## FutureLabRat

I'm really into it this show. Mostly because of the Penguin! I like how Gordon and Bruce are being portrayed as well.

----------


## Black_Adam

I want to know what the writers were smoking when they came up with the idea of Balloonman as the proto-guardian of Gotham, this episode felt much more pulpy comic book cheese than the others which I'm fine with but overall I liked the first 2 episodes more. Bullock is hilarious though, pretty much the example of everything a cop should NOT be, really enjoy the banter between him and Gordon.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Not really seeing the Balloonman as a proto guardian at all. Even Bruce noted he was a criminal. I LOVED when Harvey was talking about how he deserved a Danish.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Balloon Man was supposed to be a reference to the shadow right? I'm not familiar with the character but the costume is familiar
The show is really pushing the camp. I mean Jada is fine on her own but when Bullock and Gordon starting chewing scenes you know this show isn't all that serious
Its not exactly adam west batman

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The show is really pushing the camp.


The only thing that has bordered on camp so far might have been Carol Kane as Oswald's mother. Other than that, there have been some Burtonesque weirdness here and there, but nothing that would constitute campiness, IMO. The show is too serious for that.

----------


## Kid A

> The only thing that has bordered on camp so far might have been Carol Kane as Oswald's mother. Other than that, there have been some Burtonesque weirdness here and there, but nothing that would constitute campiness, IMO. The show is too serious for that.


Oh come on, the balloon man's deal of having people fly in the air was pure camp.

It's a really weird narrative decision, because Balloon Man was a nod to Batman's predecessor Shadow by sharing his costume and the name Lamont (and a victim's name Cranston), not to mention he's supposed to touch on the idea of vigilantism in the face of corruption, foreshadowing Batman.  And so it's just weird to examine this kind of important theme to the show in such a goofy way.  I'm fine with the show trying to veer into pulpy camp here and there, but I'm not sure this was the appropriate place for it.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Oh come on, the balloon man's deal of having people fly in the air was pure camp.


It's bizarre, surely, but not camp. The Balloon Man himself was in no way, shape, or form campy at all. The way he was constructed on _Gotham_ would never have flied on the old Adam West comedy program, that's for sure.

----------


## DebkoX

Very much looking forward to Monday (Premieres here in the UK)
At first I was very anti-Gotham, didn't like the look at all, but I'll give it a shot.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I'm liking this show more and more.  Just when I was kind of wishing plotlines would intersect more, we get Montoya after Gordon for Cobblepot's murder and Cobblepot himself showing up at Gordon's door.  Not that it wasn't fun to watch Penguin return to Gotham, love being there, and start killing people/working his way up from the bottom.

Alfred and Bruce were removed from the rest of the cast, but that's okay.  One of the problems with Alfred being Bruce's guardian after the death of his parents is what kind of man would allow the child he is taking care of to grow up and become a costumed vigilante who fights criminals?  It's clearly the Alfred on this show.




> So Balloon Man was dressed like the Shadow and killed a guy named Cranston?  Coupled with Gordon's line about vigilantes, these writers really don't know subtlety, but it's a nice narrative I guess.


That flew over my head, but then, I don't know much about the Shadow.




> We are seeing a Gotham so jacked up, so cartoonishly  corrupt, that Bruce Wayne's eventual decision to be become a vigilante 
> and Gordon's decision to help him will seem reasonable.
> 
> I can see Future Gordon thinking "Batshaped Assault weapons. Well, its not like anything else worked."


That's very true.  It kind of reminds me of the "Trial" episode of BTAS where that lawyer accused Batman of creating all these freakish criminals until the end of the episode where she realized they created him.  We can see Bruce's journey to becoming Batman on this show and that Batman really will be the kind of force that responds specifically to the criminal threat and works outside the broken legal system.




> Montoya and Allen feel out of place with the rest of this last episode. They and Gordon all occupy the straight nosed hero trope, but Gordon at least has Bullock, allowing him to play the straight man to Bullock's comic crooked cop. It gives him more depth and a greater oppurtunity to act and react. Montoya and Allen don't have that, so they come off as wooden even if the actor's aren't.


Considering how Montoya is harassing Barbara here, she might start to become a little unhinged.

----------


## Randumbz

To be honest, I think that Gotham is pretty disappointing so far. I was excited when if fist heard about it and couldn't wait for the season to begin, but now I don't know if I even want to keep watching it. I'm find on it incredibly dull and I can barely follow what's going on. Why does Cobblepot keep randomly killing people? How is it that every single person who eventually becomes a super villian has a connection to the Gotham police department? If you asked me what happened in the story so far, I wouldn't even be able to tell you. The cinematography and production value are good, but the most of the actors except for the penguin aren't that great. Bullock doesn't look or act like Bullock and I don't get why he's so much older than Gordon. Jada Smith overact in very single scene that she's in and it's really annoying. I like the pilot episode of The Flash much more than all 3 of the Gotham episodes we've seen so far. That show is fresh and fun, whereas Gotham is unnecessarily dark (even for a batman show) and weird. Hopefully it'll improve.

----------


## Kid A

> It's bizarre, surely, but not camp. The Balloon Man himself was in no way, shape, or form campy at all. The way he was constructed on _Gotham_ would never have flied on the old Adam West comedy program, that's for sure.


Twin Peaks is bizarre, this is just plain goofy.  Adam West's Batman is not the ultimate standard to define what is and isn't camp.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Twin Peaks is bizarre, this is just plain goofy.  Adam West's Batman is not the ultimate standard to define what is and isn't camp.


Well, I don't see it and _Gotham_ doesn't fit any definition of the word that I have seen.

----------


## Vil_Dee

Yeah, the show's not campy, it just has some random campy elements. I guess they didn't want to go full blown grimy darky.  Which considering the stretch of the premise, is probably a good idea not to take themselves too seriously.

Gordon and Bullock are growing on me.

I'm thinking of Taylor's Penguin more as the Penguin than the comic book version. 

I like Maroni better than Falcone. 

Jada's character isn't annoying me like I thought she would.  

Eddy needs to turn down the geeky and turn up the douchey.

Babara needs to put on some pants and leave her apartment already (it's a nice apartment, but come on).

Alfred needs to be channeling Remains of the Day, not Layer Cake

Montoya and Allen might as well be Fringe agents from a parallel universe.   They just pop up out of thin air to get in a character's face, stir up shizzle, and then disappear back to their own universe.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I like the pilot episode of The Flash much more than all 3 of the Gotham episodes we've seen so far. That show is fresh and fun, whereas Gotham is unnecessarily dark (even for a batman show) and weird.


Well I wouldn't think a Bat show should be "fun" like The Flash but I am having fun with how weird and dark "Gotham" is.




> I wish they would settle on a tone and stick with it.  I'd be happy with either campy _or_ gritty, but the mix of both is off putting for me.


I hate to disappoint you but I think the mix *is* the tone they are sticking with.




> Just out of curiosity, how many episodes is this season supposed to be? 10? 20? 25?


I thought I heard 16. Not sure why that number but that's what I heard.




> Adam West's Batman is not the ultimate standard to define what is and isn't camp.


Still, when people think of "camp" it's usually a little more flamboyant than this show is.

----------


## EdwardNigma

It is supposed to be 16 episodes fyi.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Still, when people think of "camp" it's usually a little more flamboyant than this show is.


Right. The show from the '60s was comedy, _Gotham_ is not.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Twin Peaks is bizarre, this is just plain goofy.  Adam West's Batman is not the ultimate standard to define what is and isn't camp.


Since it isn't funny I wouldn't call it camp and definitely not pure camp. You could maybe call it goofy or silly. The idea seems like it could have come right out of a comic book weirdly enough it didn't (at least not to my knowledge).

----------


## nightrider

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...ber-28/313337/

Gotham tops biggest adults 18-49 ratings increase and tops percentile gains.
Gotham increased from a 3.3 to 6.0

----------


## Kid A

> Right. The show from the '60s was comedy, _Gotham_ is not.


Uh no, not all camp has to beat you over the head with comedy.  The fact that the balloon killing was played as straight and serious if anything lends it even more to camp.  It's just another vein of black comedy.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Uh no, not all camp has to beat you over the head with comedy.  The fact that the balloon killing was played as straight and serious if anything lends it even more to camp.  It's just another vein of black comedy.


Going to have to agree to disagree, Kid A. IMO, the word "campy" is used too often for things it's not meant for. This is one of those times.

----------


## Crimson Knight

> It is supposed to be 16 episodes fyi.


Unless they've gotten more since, or will, it's currently 18, as far as I'm aware. From the Pilot on.

----------


## Crimson Knight

> I can't believe this show made me interested in Penguin who was probably my least favorite Batman villain outside of Bane. Well done Gotham.


Yeah, he was one of my least favourite villains in Batman: The Animated Series, while The Batman version had a bit more spice and here, I'm A LOT happier with him.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

I can't see any way Fish Mooney lasts much into next season for two reasons:

1)  I think Jada Pinkett Smith is here mainly to draw non-fan interest while the show finds its audience (and that her contract is for one season).

2)  I think (just guessing here) Fish Mooney's character has to die dramaticly, either directly or indirectly, at Penguin's hand, probably by this season finale episode or in next season's premiere episode.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Unless they've gotten more since, or will, it's currently 18, as far as I'm aware. From the Pilot on.


It is 16. Sure you are not thinking about Sleppy Hallow which will have 18 episodes this season?

----------


## Crimson Knight

> It is 16. Sure you are not thinking about Sleppy Hallow which will have 18 episodes this season?


SH definitely has, but... It thought it was, for now, only 18, for Gotham, as well?

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Unless they've gotten more since, or will, it's currently 18, as far as I'm aware. From the Pilot on.


As far as I know/can see it is 16.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> 1)  I think Jada Pinkett Smith is here mainly to draw non-fan interest while the show finds its audience (and that her contract is for one season).


What's your source for Jada's contract?
I would argue that considering how man non-fans she has brought in (based on my brief Facebook research) that they would want to stretch that to at least two seasons.




> Uh no, not all camp has to beat you over the head with comedy.  The fact that the balloon killing was played as straight and serious if anything lends it even more to camp.  It's just another vein of black comedy.


I don't think "camp" and "black comedy" are interchangeable words. "Camp" originated as a word to describe flamboyant/effeminate men pertaining to drag acts and other over the top performances. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(s...nd_development




> http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...ber-28/313337/
> 
> Gotham tops biggest adults 18-49 ratings increase and tops percentile gains.
> Gotham increased from a 3.3 to 6.0


Oh, awesome.

Also:
_Before the most anticipated network show of the fall season has even aired, Warner Bros. — which produces the Fox series — announced a deal with Netflix. The streaming giant is reportedly paying $1.75 million per episode to license worldwide rights to the show, and it can’t even begin showing “Gotham” until after the 16-episode season is over._
http://www.dailynews.com/arts-and-en...tory-of-batman
_FOX's "Gotham" will have a slightly longer run that most new shows do out of the gate. The network has picked up 16 episodes for Season 1, three more than the standard 13 for a freshman series. 

"That's No. 1, a comment on how strongly we feel about it -- we were only contractually obligated to order 13 and we ordered 16, FOX Entertainment chairman Kevin Reilly says. "We think that's the way that show, at least in its first iteration, will be very strong to arc to." 

There's a chance that, if it does well, FOX will add more episodes to the order, but that's a decision for later. "That show's going to have a very strong serialized element, and because they're off to such a strong start ... we'll size that up," Reilly says. "But 16 felt like the right amount."_ 
http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/gotham_s..._least-2014-05
So it's 16.

----------


## Kid A

> I don't think "camp" and "black comedy" are interchangeable words. "Camp" originated as a word to describe flamboyant/effeminate men pertaining to drag acts and other over the top performances.


I didn't say they're interchangeable, but DKD is insisting that the balloon seen wasn't humorous and therefore not camp, when I'm saying that it is humorous in a black way. Camp can be thought of as "failed seriousness" and that's basically what this was.  

And word meanings tend to diverge from original intent over time.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Episode on tonight!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I didn't say they're interchangeable, but DKD is insisting that the balloon seen wasn't humorous and therefore not camp, when I'm saying that it is humorous in a black way.


Just because you feel it's gallows humor doesn't make it campy, though. They're not the same word.

----------


## Randumbz

Camp means over the top. Using weather balloons to kill people is pretty over the top.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Camp means over the top. Using weather balloons to kill people is pretty over the top.


Depends on the presentation, however. If Cesar Romero's Joker had done this on _Batman_, I have no doubt it would have been presented as pure camp (and the victims wouldn't have been victims, either - they would have been floating around Gotham City harmlessly, but very humiliated). It would have been done for pure laughs, unlike _Gotham_ (which I didn't find humorous at all, only bizarre).

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> What's your source for Jada's contract?
> I would argue that considering how man non-fans she has brought in (based on my brief Facebook research) that they would want to stretch that to at least two seasons.


No source, just a gut feeling that her character has to die (and probably in a very brutal manner) for Penguin to rise.  Also, while JPS is a certified cinematic actor, she hasn't been a "movie star" for about a decade now, and TV seems her more natural home at this point (3 seasons of HAWTHORNE recently).  Scratch it, you're probably right.  

If GOTHAM is going to go SMALLVILLE's route and take us all the way to Batman's debut as its endgame, then we might be looking at a possible 10-season run and 200 episodes total.  Gotta stretch out the good characters.  My updated best guess: Fish Mooney probably makes it all the way through the end of season 2, with a parting shot of her corpse in the Season 3 opener.

----------


## protege

> No source, just a gut feeling that her character has to die (and probably in a very brutal manner) for Penguin to rise.  Also, while JPS is a certified cinematic actor, she hasn't been a "movie star" for about a decade now, and TV seems her more natural home at this point (3 seasons of HAWTHORNE recently).  Scratch it, you're probably right.  
> 
> If GOTHAM is going to go SMALLVILLE's route and take us all the way to Batman's debut as its endgame, then we might be looking at a possible 10-season run and 200 episodes total.  Gotta stretch out the good characters.  My updated best guess: Fish Mooney probably makes it all the way through the end of season 2, with a parting shot of her corpse in the Season 3 opener.


Yeah, because we know that Falcone is going to be around when Batman shows up (Not sure how that's going to work either) as well as the penguin, so i don't know how they can stretch out Fish's character indefinitely,

----------


## Beantownbrown

Show is 22 episodes now.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/13/go...r-22-episodes/

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Show is 22 episodes now.
> 
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/13/go...r-22-episodes/


Bloody brilliant! I have really enjoyed the series so far and the U.K première is today so I will be watching again.

----------


## heyevaxx

Remember the episode 3 fight scene with Gordon and Harv vs the perp and the really tall sex worker? 

The song in the background is "Down On The Street" by The Stooges from Fun House (1970)!

That's the second Iggy Pop song in Gotham. The first was a snippet in the pilot when Harv calls Gordon from a bar where Funtime is playing.

I love The Stooges and Iggy so this is just delicious, musical icing on a fantastic TV cake.  :Smile: 

The Stooges - Down On The Street:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qannFs974gg

----------


## Nite-Wing

Oh so there's going to be a full season now. I wonder if the show is gonna go on break since I think they are still filming season 1

----------


## Mr. Mastermind

Just watched the pilot.

The dialogue is hackneyed and there are too many set up characters (mainly Poison Ivy) but the main cast is interesting enough even if it feels a bit too like Smallville. The guy playing Penguin was so insane and perfect.

Not sure who thought this version of Alfred was a good idea but he made me laugh whenever he showed up.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Oh so there's going to be a full season now. I wonder if the show is gonna go on break since I think they are still filming season 1


They are. The are filming episode 8 or 9 I believe. Harvey Dent has just been casted as well. A winter break and then begin sometime in the spring is not unlikely.

----------


## Kapparition

This is for the people complaining about the weather balloon being campy. Most Batman stories feature villains who have obsessions. Penguin has his umbrellas..two face his coin.. Scarecrow his fear gas. Are we forgetting this is a comic book TV show? It has to have some of that fun factor that the comics have. I am sure this guy using weather balloons will inspire other villains in Gotham to find their own.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Depends on the presentation, however. If Cesar Romero's Joker had done this on _Batman_, I have no doubt it would have been presented as pure camp (and the victims wouldn't have been victims, either - they would have been floating around Gotham City harmlessly, but very humiliated). It would have been done for pure laughs, unlike _Gotham_ (which I didn't find humorous at all, only bizarre).


Exactly, The Balloon man wasn't overacting at all he was pretty down to earth. Camp is as I see it overacting for humorous points. The scene in Batman 89 where joker is walking around spray painting the gallery or killing a person with a shocker in his hand is camp because it is there with Jack Nicholson being over the top Joker. In Nolan's Batman Heath Ledger is a much more down to earth joker. 




> This is for the people complaining about the weather balloon being campy. Most Batman stories feature villains who have obsessions. Penguin has his umbrellas..two face his coin.. Scarecrow his fear gas. Are we forgetting this is a comic book TV show? It has to have some of that fun factor that the comics have. I am sure this guy using weather balloons will inspire other villains in Gotham to find their own.


Even though yes, the show will be coloured by the fact that is based on comic books. Gotham is much closer to the Nolan version than for instance the Batman 89 or 92 that had some of the comic goofyness/cartoon feel it was just put in a grotesque gothic Tim Burton universe. The more I think about this more is Tim Burton's movie the 66 show put into Tim Burton gothic universe.

----------


## doodledude

> I was only half serious, but no I think having a proto-Batman running around before Batman himself would be dumb on so many levels.  It makes the impact of Batman himself redundant, you may as well give people a Batman show or a Gotham Central show if they went that route.


Now after the Ballonman episode they have now established vigalantes in Gotham pre Batman.Some costumes running around would really make this dog of a show bark.

----------


## InformationGeek

I definitely liked this episode more than the last.  I'm really intrigued to see where this future gang conflicts go.

----------


## tabo61

Another great episode tonight.   My favorite part was listening on how the new Arkham Asylum and other areas proposed would bring profit to  Maroni.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

"Arkham" The scene showing the Arkham Asylum gate looked great.  The villain of the week had an interesting weapon.   Jada Pinkett Smith making out with that girl was pretty cool as was the cat fight.  Other than that I didn't think this episode was particularly interesting.

----------


## blackbolt396

This was a homerun,and The Penguin is without question the best thing in this show.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

This show keeps getting a few percentage points better with each episode in my book.

Like the Falcone/Maroni war (this could seriously go on for the entire series run), 

OK with Fish Mooney (the seduction/catfight bit was alright), 

Love the Penguin (he's a superstar), 

Hate Barbara Keane (what a hypocrite), 

Dislike the assassin (more confused than anything: who hired him to kill both Falcone and Maroni's puppets?  Penguin?  Fish?  Someone else?)

Also, the violence in the episode was more than I was expecting ... got more than a little uncomfortable when that bound dude in the oil drum was begging for his life while having gasoline dumped on him and then BURNED ALIVE.  That scream ...

On the plus side, NO Stalker Montoya  :Smile:

----------


## Kid A

Yeah Barbara is awful.  Hopefully she is out of the show now, and Jim will get out of the penthouse. 




> Exactly, The Balloon man wasn't overacting at all he was pretty down to earth. Camp is as I see it overacting for humorous points. The scene in Batman 89 where joker is walking around spray painting the gallery or killing a person with a shocker in his hand is camp because it is there with Jack Nicholson being over the top Joker. In Nolan's Batman Heath Ledger is a much more down to earth joker.


Balloon Man doesn't need to be acting flamboyant; his MO was still campy.   




> Now after the Ballonman episode they have now established vigalantes in Gotham pre Batman.Some costumes running around would really make this dog of a show bark.


Yeah, but even though Balloon Man had nods to the Shadow, he was played more as a procedural killer who had good intentions than a costumed vigilante.

----------


## MichaelC

Anyone else catch the Fox influence on the plot? The story is basically about two corrupt unions wanting to build low-income housing and removing the Arkham renovation control from the Waynes(private enterprize) and giving it to a mob-union-controlled government. Reminds me of the stuff in the V remake about evil clean energy.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> My updated best guess: Fish Mooney probably makes it all the way through the end of season 2, with a parting shot of her corpse in the Season 3 opener.


After tonight's ep, I'm not sure Penguin needs to do anything to Fish anymore as he seems to be rising in power all on his own. I'm sure he'll want to confront her eventually but I wonder if Fish will take on Falcone and Penguin will take over Maroni? They could get some mileage out of that with the two of them being the two families now in power.

Fish was pretty brutal, I didn't expect that fight. 

I liked how they used Bruce in this ep, he had some personal info but it was more him learning how Gotham works as an audience surrogate and Gordon explaining he believes they should try to save Gotham.

I also like that they didn't try to say Barbara went through a phase or something as an excuse for her and Renee, she had a relationship and ended it (supposedly it's over) and James has secrets although I think Barbara was clearly projecting when she acted like he might be doing more than working late. Mind you in the comics he does although they don't seem to be setting up anything with this Essen.

----------


## colossus34

Fish Mooney is the most annoying thing on the show. Seriously, what purpose does she serve? Are we supposed to root for her? She's not very sympathetic of a character and her motivations seem pretty petty. Not to mention she chews up scenery every time she's on. 

With Cobblepot we're rooting for him to work his way up the ranks and earn respect and power and become the man we know as Penguin. With Gordon we root for him to survive in the morally corrupt world around him. Even little Bruce is someone we can watch grow and mature into a young man.

Glad Barbara Keane is gone too. Hopefully, this means no more Gordon in the million dollar condo and he's forced to slum it a bit. There's some interesting sub plots dwelling I'm hoping they keep the focus on Gordon/Cobblepot/Bruce for the remainder of the season.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

THIS is what I'm talking about. Not the bullcrap fest that was the first episode or the  so-so mediocrity of the next two. This is finally Batman-level of entertainment.

With a good script and under good direction even Barbara can be a decent character. Take of the lame whine cliche, and the episode would have been perfect. 

This Penguin is becoming something really interesting. AS a fan of the character, I think this show will finally get the character back to his original spot as second only to the Joker.

----------


## DurararaFTW

I imegine Fish Mooney was the one hiring the hitman to stoke the flames between Falcone and Maroni.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Fish Mooney is the most annoying thing on the show. Seriously, what purpose does she serve? Are we supposed to root for her? She's not very sympathetic of a character and her motivations seem pretty petty. Not to mention she chews up scenery every time she's on. 
> 
> With Cobblepot we're rooting for him to work his way up the ranks and earn respect and power and become the man we know as Penguin. With Gordon we root for him to survive in the morally corrupt world around him. Even little Bruce is someone we can watch grow and mature into a young man.
> 
> Glad Barbara Keane is gone too. Hopefully, this means no more Gordon in the million dollar condo and he's forced to slum it a bit. There's some interesting sub plots dwelling I'm hoping they keep the focus on Gordon/Cobblepot/Bruce for the remainder of the season.


I don't think she is placed there for to be rooted for. She is there to be player the cops can use and the Penguin had a connection to instead of tying everything up to Maroni/Falcone. My first thought about Barbara leaving was also. Thank god now we will hopefully get rid of that penthouse. That apartment really bugs me. Also the episode she stood out as a character and didn't take no for an answer good to see some interaction. 




> Dislike the assassin (more confused than anything: who hired him to kill both Falcone and Maroni's puppets?  Penguin?  Fish?  Someone else?)


It was explained in the show that he worked for both sides.




> Balloon Man doesn't need to be acting flamboyant; his MO was still campy.


Yes, it does. Others and I has told you that overacting for comical effect is the very definition of campy. No overacting of funny about the Balloon man. It is about as cheesy as a man walking around with a stick killing people by poking them in the eye.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I think each episode is better than the last. They are finding their footing. I really enjoyed the intro for Arkham and my least favorite villain (Penguin) is becoming one of my faves. Great show.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I think each episode is better than the last. They are finding their footing. I really enjoyed the intro for Arkham and my least favorite villain (Penguin) is becoming one of my faves. Great show.


Speaking of you  :Stick Out Tongue:  I thought Nigma was done well, not so over the top as he had been. I liked how he was used this time.




> Fish Mooney is the most annoying thing on the show. Seriously, what purpose does she serve? Are we supposed to root for her? She's not very sympathetic of a character and her motivations seem pretty petty. Not to mention she chews up scenery every time she's on.


Scenery chewing has it's fans. I think the show has different enough characters to have somebody that a viewer will like and somebody the viewer won't but it's different depending on the viewer. I don't think we have to root for Fish, she is kinda the show's antagonist. Penguin is the sympathetic villain and Fish is the one that's also amassing power but in a way people kind of root against.

----------


## ABH

I think this was the best episode yet. Everyone, including Jada/Fish, was a lot better in this episode.

Of course it's Oswald that steals the show. I'm loving his slow rise through manipulation. Maybe once Fish is out of the picture, he'll open up the Iceberg Lounge/Casino.

----------


## Kid A

> Yes, it does. Others and I has told you that overacting for comical effect is the very definition of campy. No overacting of funny about the Balloon man. It is about as cheesy as a man walking around with a stick killing people by poking them in the eye.


Telling me your narrow definition of camp that's soley based on the Adam West show over and over won't change its meaning.

----------


## Flash Gordon

The difference is the Adam West show was fun camp, this is dumb camp that doesn't fit. 

The whole tone of this show is off- it's basic network TV junk. I honestly found THE FLASH to be more entertaining annnnd that's not saying much.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Telling me your narrow definition of camp that's soley based on the Adam West show over and over won't change its meaning.


The problem is that you have expanded the definition of camp to fit things it never was intended for, however. 

Are any serious reviewers of the show stating Balloon Man is campy? I highly doubt it. Egghead he's not.

----------


## Vil_Dee

OMG! People are still discussing whether this show is camp or not?!  One guy had a metal spike shot into his eye and you saw the eye all mushed up in his socket and another guy got burned alive in a trash can!!!  

The Arkham visuals were great, btw.

----------


## doodledude

I just watched Nightwing fan made series on youtube and it is better than this show.This show is really shitty if fans can make a show that's better and more Batman than Gotham.




> The problem is that you have expanded the definition of camp to fit things it never was intended for, however. 
> 
> Are any serious reviewers of the show stating Balloon Man is campy? I highly doubt it. Egghead he's not.


Its bad camp and trying to be serious at the same time does not work.It's a show that has no idea about what it wants to be.Its lost writing they don't seem to know where they are going with it.Why is Bruce not training?He is just sitting around sulking and acting depressed.It just feels bullshit and not Batman he should be more driven.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Its bad camp and trying to be serious at the same time does not work.


It's not camp at all, bad or good. Based on this discussion on this thread, I have to assume some people think Jigsaw from the _Saw_ movies is campy, too. 




> Why is Bruce not training?


You're joking here, right?  Besides, he is training to some degree,




> OMG! People are still discussing whether this show is camp or not?!  One guy had a metal spike shot into his eye and you saw the eye all mushed up in his socket and another guy got burned alive in a trash can!!!


To be fair, you can combine horror/violence with camp. _The Abominable Dr. Phibes_ in some scenes is a good example.

----------


## Vil_Dee

> I just watched Nightwing fan made series on youtube and it is better than this show.This show is really shitty if fans can make a show that's better and more Batman than Gotham.


Well how can Gotham possibly be as good as a fan made series about Nightwing when it has no Dick in it!

Dick! Dick! Dick!  Is that all people can think about around here?

----------


## ispacehead

I thought this episode was decent. Not my favorite so far but still good.

In regards to the camp discussion, I think they have a pretty good balance going on so far.

The camp isn't overplayed.

Simply using balloons to kill people isn't camp. If he had said "Going UP!" as he did it...THAT would be camp.

So far I'm finding the mix to be pretty enjoyable.

Barbara still doesn't thrill me, but this episode might have been a little better.

----------


## colossus34

> Scenery chewing has it's fans. I think the show has different enough characters to have somebody that a viewer will like and somebody the viewer won't but it's different depending on the viewer. I don't think we have to root for Fish, she is kinda the show's antagonist. Penguin is the sympathetic villain and Fish is the one that's also amassing power but in a way people kind of root against.


Scene chewing only works when its a consistent aspect of the show not when Gordon looks like he's a hard boiled detective in Batman Begins and Fish seems like she's trapped in an Adam West tv show. 

Also, if she's "kinda the show's antagonist" then why is she not in direct conflict with Gordon/Wayne or even Fish really? She has a personal agenda against the Falcones and wants to enact some sort of vengeance on them. Are we supposed to care? We certainly aren't rooting for her like we are cobblepot or Gordan or wayne. You could literally cut out all of her scenes and the story would be fine.

----------


## ispacehead

Fish serves a purpose. She's someone for Oswald to take down on his rise to power.

Can't just have him go head to head with Falcone.

I imagine her demise will be quite unpleasant.

I,  for one, am looking forward to it.

I mean...she called him Penguin. 

She's done. Right?

----------


## doodledude

> It's not camp at all, bad or good. Based on this discussion on this thread, I have to assume some people think Jigsaw from the _Saw_ movies is campy, too. 
> 
> 
> 
> You're joking here, right?  Besides, he is training to some degree,


Play sword fighting with Alfred and burning his hands is not training.




> Well how can Gotham possibly be as good as a fan made series about Nightwing when it has no Dick in it!
> 
> Dick! Dick! Dick!  Is that all people can think about around here?


No the fan made series has better drama and action.It does include Dick also which is also a good thing.There's no such thing as to much Dick is there?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Play sword fighting with Alfred and burning his hands is not training.


I can't believe I have to explain this... obviously, Bruce is not going to be in full training not that long after his parents' death and, well, he's only 13. Frankly, the thought of that is beyond ridiculous. He is testing his limits, though, and working on his deductive skills. It's more than a reasonable start.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Telling me your narrow definition of camp that's soley based on the Adam West show over and over won't change its meaning.


No, I haven't. I have called Batman Forever, Batman and robin camp and said that the Burton movies (especially the first one) had elements of camp. Heck even many slasher I consider to have camp in them. You are simply using a straw man argument instead of arguing for your case.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I can't believe I have to explain this... obviously, Bruce is not going to be in full training not that long after his parents' death and, well, he's only 13. Frankly, the thought of that is beyond ridiculous. He is testing his limits, though, and working on his deductive skills. It's more than a reasonable start.


I hopefully they will keep it at that. It would be ridiculous to have a 13 year old buy going around fighting crime or training to be some kind of super soldier.

----------


## ispacehead

> I can't believe I have to explain this... obviously, Bruce is not going to be in full training not that long after his parents' death and, well, he's only 13. Frankly, the thought of that is beyond ridiculous. He is testing his limits, though, and working on his deductive skills. It's more than a reasonable start.


I totally agree. He's learning about reality and the city and trying to make sense of what has happened to his life. That's enough for me.

I like the air of authority he exudes.

And his sense of compassion. 

The last thing I want to see is Bruce learning martial arts from an exotic master.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Fish Mooney came off more antagonistic this episode with her whole dark choice thing 
I mean she's not supposed to be the Joker or anything

----------


## byrd156

> I can't believe I have to explain this... obviously, Bruce is not going to be in full training not that long after his parents' death and, well, he's only 13. Frankly, the thought of that is beyond ridiculous. He is testing his limits, though, and working on his deductive skills. It's more than a reasonable start.


Did they state his age? I thought he was supposed to be 8 years old, like in every other Batman origin story.

----------


## ABH

Yeah, I like what they are doing with Bruce, so far, and the kid playing him was especially good in this last episode.

----------


## doodledude

> I can't believe I have to explain this... obviously, Bruce is not going to be in full training not that long after his parents' death and, well, he's only 13. Frankly, the thought of that is beyond ridiculous. He is testing his limits, though, and working on his deductive skills. It's more than a reasonable start.


BS  man kids five and six years old do martial arts now.He is supposed to be one of the best hand to hand combatants on earth.He's already late starting his martial training at 13.He will also have to master free running this will take this little whiner years to learn.Almost all great athelete's start training as a child.Batman is definitely a great athelete.Not only that he will have to be master of hand to hand combat to train his sidekicks.He does'nt have time to bullshit around.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Did they state his age? I thought he was supposed to be 8 years old, like in every other Batman origin story.


I think the actor playing Bruce is about 13, but I might be wrong about that.

----------


## Randumbz

Yesterday's episode was a little bit better, but some things about it seemed really weird to me. The Fish Mooney "seduce me" thing was so random, and both girls had the sex appeal of a paper bag. Making them fight was so stupid and I don't see why any of that stuff was even included in the episode. It had nothing to do with anything. It was obvious that Cobblepot put poison in the cannoli from the start. Why didn't the goons get suspicious when he stared at them while they ate and didn't eat any of it himself? I'm very desensitized to violence, but the murder scenes in this show are unsettling even for me (the guy who was burned alive...). If Fish got less screentime and they turned down the graphic stuff, I think I'd enjoy it more.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> BS  man kids five and six years old do martial arts now.He is supposed to be one of the best hand to hand combatants on earth.He's already late starting his martial training at 13.He will also have to master freerunning this will take this little whiner years to learn.


First of all, watch the attitude. Secondly, your argument is still ridiculous.

----------


## doodledude

> Did they state his age? I thought he was supposed to be 8 years old, like in every other Batman origin story.


He's supposed to be around the same age as Selina she said she was 13 did'nt she?

----------


## doodledude

> First of all, watch the attitude. Secondly, your argument is still ridiculous.


No my argument makes sense you are trying to defend bad writing on a bad show.I've been reading Bat's for years he's really supposed to be Batman the minute his parents are killed.Bruce Wayne is just a mask after that.Martial training should have started on the second episode weightlifting running.Detective training and forensics come later it would definitely make this show more interesting.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> No my argument makes sense you are trying to defend bad writing on a bad show.I've been reading Bat's for years he's really supposed to be Batman the minute his parents are killed.Bruce Wayne is just a mask after that.


I have been following Batman for almost half a century and I have never, ever seen any incarnation where he instantly becomes Batman after his parents' death. Also, if you keep posting this nonsense, you're in danger of being banned for a spell for trollish behavior.

----------


## The Lonely Man

First episode aired here in the UK last night, I quite enjoyed it and think the show has promise. Highlights for me were Jim Gordon and young Bruce, I think both have been very well cast.
I wasn't so keen on Sean Pertwee as Alfred and the whole 'cockney Guvnor' style he was playing, early days but I hope that passes, he also used the word 'mate' too much. 

Interesting but understandable route they are taking with highlighting so many future Bat villians in the first epsisode, I particularly liked the idea of Selina witnessing the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne. 

Just briefly touching on the whole camp thing currently being discussed in here, I have only seen the pilot episode so am probably not best placed to comment yet but initial thoughts are this is nowhere near camp, by any definition.

----------


## ispacehead

> Fish Mooney came off more antagonistic this episode with her whole dark choice thing 
> I mean she's not supposed to be the Joker or anything


No, but her violent tendencies do seem to have some sort of influence on him in this Gotham. (If he is indeed the bad comedian from the first episode that witnessed her ferocious rage....)

----------


## ispacehead

> I've been reading Bat's for years he's really supposed to be Batman the minute his parents are killed.


Yeah...I gotta disagree here.

It would be silly to see him going all Kick Ass as an immediate response to his parents death.  Bruce Wayne is supposed to be a bit more withdrawn, focusing inward, studying outward, studying and learning about Gotham and the way the world works. Cerebral long before physical.

Gordon is the "Batman" character in this series, helping to shape young Bruce's idea of justice, and perseverance in a world that is spinning out of control.

Violence is only a tool.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Speaking of you  I thought Nigma was done well, not so over the top as he had been. I liked how he was used this time.


HA!!! I agree with you. I was a little worried in his first appearance but this one was more subdued. I love how he thinks Harvey is a moron which aligns with Riddler's personality. I hope we start to see him more.

----------


## ispacehead

> HA!!! I agree with you. I was a little worried in his first appearance but this one was more subdued. I love how he thinks Harvey is a moron which aligns with Riddler's personality. I hope we start to see him more.


That brief flash of madness describing the murder weapon was brilliant.

Like a dog licking his chops.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Agree about pre-Riddler. He might be fine after all.

----------


## Tupiaz

> No, but her violent tendencies do seem to have some sort of influence on him in this Gotham. (If he is indeed the bad comedian from the first episode that witnessed her ferocious rage....)


Easter egg not more nothing less. As we have seen there has been several different people auditioning at her place. Their will likely be more.




> Yesterday's episode was a little bit better, but some things about it seemed really weird to me. The Fish Mooney "seduce me" thing was so random, and both girls had the sex appeal of a paper bag. Making them fight was so stupid and I don't see why any of that stuff was even included in the episode. It had nothing to do with anything. It was obvious that Cobblepot put poison in the cannoli from the start. Why didn't the goons get suspicious when he stared at them while they ate and didn't eat any of it himself? I'm very desensitized to violence, but the murder scenes in this show are unsettling even for me (the guy who was burned alive...). If Fish got less screentime and they turned down the graphic stuff, I think I'd enjoy it more.


She wants a weapon, she wants to go after Falcon. She probably want the weapon to seduce Falcon or someone near him to get information or get close to him. I taught that was quite oblivious from what we know so far.

----------


## ispacehead

> Easter egg not more nothing less. As we have seen there has been several different people auditioning at her place. Their will likely be more.


Seems silly to think they would make a Batman series like this featuring Penguin and 
Riddler and catwoman in the first episode, but not give us a glimpse of Mr. J.

Sometimes the obvious truth really is true.

----------


## Randumbz

> Easter egg not more nothing less. As we have seen there has been several different people auditioning at her place. Their will likely be more.
> 
> 
> 
> She wants a weapon, she wants to go after Falcon. She probably want the weapon to seduce Falcon or someone near him to get information or get close to him. I taught that was quite oblivious from what we know so far.


But the girl didn't even do anything seductive. She just sat on a table and kissed Fish for a couple of seconds.

----------


## ispacehead

> But the girl didn't even do anything seductive. She just sat on a table and kissed Fish for a couple of seconds.


That whole bit was kinda lame and forced.

Chalk it up to target marketing.

It's an important demographic.

----------


## Tupiaz

Btw it seems like Szasz will be the villain in the next episode. I would wish that that the villains would stay on longer and not just be villain of the week thing. 




> But the girl didn't even do anything seductive. She just sat on a table and kissed Fish for a couple of seconds.


She sat at the table very seductive and drank very seductive of Fish glass with an intense look at Fish. If a girl is ever doing that to you she is either up to no good, your lover, a prostitute or all the three things at the same time. You can call it forced, unnecessary and what nut. But compared to the first girl she did a much better job in seducing Fish.




> Seems silly to think they would make a Batman series like this featuring Penguin and 
> Riddler and catwoman in the first episode, but not give us a glimpse of Mr. J.
> 
> Sometimes the obvious truth really is true.


He is only supposed to be one of several possible jokers and most likely there will be no joker since he was created by Batman. He is meant to be that could be Joker he is not meant to be Joker. Easter egg because you in a pilot need to show what you will do with the show and have a lot of different characters. The same reason Ivy was in the show who has not been seen since the Pilot either. We wont see Two-Face either but Harvey Dent fighting with inner demons.

----------


## heyevaxx

The show keeps impressing me.

Negatives first: I can do without the spike in the eye and then the gory close up. Plus the immolation murder was way too much for my taste. No Selina is a big minus! 

Pluses: Mooney is cool and I like Jada in the role. Her "casting call" was creepy and disturbing; she carried those scenes well.

Gordon is shining as a sympathetic, hard working cop smothered in crime, crooked politics and police corruption with personal problems to boot. Bullock is great as his frenemy slash partner. Donal is a real gem and pulls off Harv really well.

I like Bruce and Alfred; Bruce can carry a scene despite being 13. I like the rougher Alfred but the actor's voice sounds louder than everyone else. I always turn the volume down for his dialog.

BTW, IIRC Bruce/David are 12/13 [edit: young Bruce is 12 not 13 from the original post] and Selina/Camren are 14/15. I wonder when/if each young actor will go through a growth spurt. He's listed as 5' 86lb and she's 5'1" 98lb - I hope he starts growing soon since Bruce ends up pretty tall (6'2" I think from dc wikia). Camren's resume went from 4'11" up 2" so he better start growing!

The show does a great job with sets, props, etc. Barbara's penthouse, the Maroni restaurant, the police station, Bruce's (only?) room at the mansion, the Richard Gladwell's office etc are all decked out in a sleek, crisp manner with a nebulous 70s/80s/90s feel. E.g. tube monitors and type writers. Not to mention Oswald using a payphone! And boxy 80s police cars.

I liked Gladwell as a pro hitman, he's got (had) a great voice and was intense. I'm convinced that... *spoilers:*
Oswald hired the hitman to kill council members on both sides of the Arkham vote to spur a gang war. He's always going on and on about an upcoming war, rivers of blood and what not. I don't think it's Fish - she's working her revenge vs Carmine. Pengy is playing the long game of bringing all the gangs down by making them fight amongst themselves while he pulls strings in the background gathering his strength. Very Penguin-ish! (if true)
*end of spoilers*

Liza (played by Makenzie Leigh), who won the Fish job, was excellent and I like how each singer played the seduce me audition. I thought it was funny how the blond singer just started to nonchalantly take off her earings when she knew she had to fight for the job.

BTW, I don't think the "seduce me" bit was about seduction: it was about having the guts to do something you don't really feel. If Fish wants an attractive woman to seduce the top crime boss in Gotham the woman has to be able to have nerves of steel and be able to be sexual with someone they don't like and/or aren't attracted to. If a woman like Fish with gravitas orders a straight woman interviewing for a job to kiss her, that is super awkward and intimidating. That what Fish needs: a woman with guts who can fake it.

Weird trivia: search Google Images on Makenzie Leigh and the top hit in the upper left is Camren Bicondova! Then a bunch of Leigh pics.

And, wow, the music hits just keep coming! The song that Liza sings is a very slow, sultry version of Spellbound by Siouxsie And The Banshees! I'd love to hear Leigh do the full song in the same style as this episode. Here's Siouxsie And The Banshees doing their classic:
album - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL-NVZ6FQMI
live  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7COZEhmeA

----------


## K. Jones

I think to date my favorite part of the show is just that they use real New York and then add a bit of Gotham skyline in the back and maybe a gargoyle here and there. I mean that's part of the mise-en-scene and we get things like ... well things we'd better not take for granted, like Arkham Asylum actually looking like a late-19th Century Gothic Revival hospital in a Northeastern United States city instead of some fantasy place. I live a few miles from a sprawling late-19th Century massive insane asylum and they don't look like the house from Addams Family or that towering monolith from Begins, either (well, that wasn't bad. The Animated Series was way out there, though).

But I did think it was a nice touch to have a couple crows sitting on the very traditionally depicted Arkham gates. Sure it's subtle foreshadowing of like, Scarecrow, and totally cliche ... but crows are everywhere. In Utica, this time of year, they fill the sky as the sun is going down by the hundreds of thousands, and they stay through winter, perching on the asylum too. *Insta-Gothic*.

What else? I dig how they're depicting young Bruce and Alfred. Sure, they've gotta shoehorn them into whatever storyline of the week, but they still haven't had any huge developmental missteps. Just a young man who's surprisingly thoughtful and concerned about his parents' legacy and who views detectives positively and thinks he can do what they do. Right on. I wonder if he'll like, go back to school at any point.

No Selina was fine, she certainly doesn't have to be in every episode. I do hope to see her in a less dire straights scenario. She's a street thief with an ear toward what the city's doing but that doesn't mean her life should be dire. I'd like to see Gordon run into her in a more jaunty adventurous scenario.

As usual Jim and Harvey's dynamic is the meat and Oswald gets to steal the show. Fish was fun to watch, the Maroni dynamic was great, the hitman interesting, targets logical, and man, he got killed extra hard by our detectives.

----------


## ispacehead

> He is only supposed to be one of several possible jokers and most likely there will be no joker since he was created by Batman. He is meant to be that could be Joker he is not meant to be Joker. Easter egg because you in a pilot need to show what you will do with the show and have a lot of different characters. The same reason Ivy was in the show who has not been seen since the Pilot either. We wont see Two-Face either but Harvey Dent fighting with inner demons.


You mean like there's one of many possible Penguins? Or one of many possible Riddlers?

Not sure what you're trying to say.

Seems to me like they probably cast the role of "a comedian" pretty intentionally.

This is television.

Not saying we're going to see him become Joker, only that it's pretty obvious that's who they intended him as.

Bad comedian, obviously upset by the violence...who else could he be? 

How could they possibly exclude the character in EPISODE 1 in some form on his 75th anniversary?

It would just be silly.

That was totally him, dude.

He even kinda looks like Ledger. (Probably very intentionally...)

----------


## ispacehead

Wanna know how I got these scars?

----------


## SXVA

Young Bruce is phenomenal, i'm already down for a spinoff focusing entirely on him.

The villain this week was kind of lame but everything else was good... another enjoyable EP, Gotham continues to shine.

This series is certainly elevating the Penguin character in a way i didn't see the character previously.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Agree about pre-Riddler. He might be fine after all.


I hope so!

----------


## Tupiaz

> You mean like there's one of many possible Penguins? Or one of many possible Riddlers?
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say.
> 
> Seems to me like they probably cast the role of "a comedian" pretty intentionally.
> 
> This is television.
> 
> Not saying we're going to see him become Joker, only that it's pretty obvious that's who they intended him as.
> ...


The point is that Joker doesn't have an origin like penguin, Riddler or any of Batman's villains. Therefor we will doing the season see multiple person who could become Joker but it is not certain who it is. So, yes it could be the Joker. But it isn't the Joker per se. if we don't see him ever again it is just a nod and an ester egg that it could be Joker. But the show hasn't directly said it is him.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Scene chewing only works when its a consistent aspect of the show not when Gordon looks like he's a hard boiled detective in Batman Begins and Fish seems like she's trapped in an Adam West tv show.


So all those comics with a serious Batman and his crazy over the top villains must be terrible to you? In comics his villains still manage to chew scenery. 




> You could literally cut out all of her scenes and the story would be fine.


Other than when they get information from her? I think right now the plot seem to be developing on their own but will come together more as they progress. 




> I've been reading Bat's for years he's really supposed to be Batman the minute his parents are killed


And yet other people were convinceed him trying his hand at detective work was taking "bat god" to new heights. Can't please everyone.




> You mean like there's one of many possible Penguins? Or one of many possible Riddlers?
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say.


He's trying to say what the producers themselves have said- Joker doesn't have one definite origin and they don't want to give him one. He could be the comedian in the club as that's what "Killing Joke" claimed he was before becoming Red Hood (although the original Red Hood story claimed he worked in a lab). He could be another character as that's what other origins have claimed (the Animated series used the mafia guy origin from Burton's movies (Jack Napier).

He was the pilot episode's Joker reference but he's not the only one that will be in the series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(comics)#Origins




> The whole tone of this show is off- it's basic network TV junk.


Yes we get it, you hate all network TV. You've only said it several times in this thread already.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I Fast forawarded all of Fish's scenes. God I hope she dies sooner rather than later. Other than that the show is solid. And pengy is awesome.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> You mean like there's one of many possible Penguins? Or one of many possible Riddlers?
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say.
> 
> Seems to me like they probably cast the role of "a comedian" pretty intentionally.
> 
> This is television.
> 
> Not saying we're going to see him become Joker, only that it's pretty obvious that's who they intended him as.
> ...


That wasn't the Joker, it was one of the many possibilities of Joker. As I've noticed some have already mentioned, the show runners already talked about how they are going to have people throughout the show's seasons that could possible wind up being The Joker because of their character traits. The character in the pilot was just one, and probably the most obvious we'll get of possible Joker candidates. 


Ok, just watched this last night, and this was easily the best episode so far. I really enjoyed this one. Some of the acting is still pretty bad (Ben McKenzie might be one of the worst actors on the show, and he's the lead), but it still entertained me. I'd like to see a lot less Bruce Wayne, though. And him being pals with Gordon at such a young age feels forced to me.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Let's try to map out this series long-term.

Bruce is 12 years old at the start of the show (actor is 13), Selina is 14-15 years old at the start of the show (actress is 15).

If GOTHAM is really BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE, and the showrunners have a long-term plan in mind, then here's my prediction (presuming it doesn't get canned on cancel-happy Fox network prior to the intended series finale):

I'm presuming up to a maximum of 10 seasons, ending with the Batman's official debut.

Season 1 - 2 = The Jim Gordon & Harvey Bullock show, Bruce mostly quietly in the background, more of a meta commentary.

Season 3 - 6 = Still the Jim Gordon & Harvey Bullock show, but Bruce's role increased during his Gotham Academy high school years

Season 7 - 9 = Bruce on par with Gordon & Harvey, in and out of Gotham, really learning from the masters (basically two separate shows in one show)

Season 10 = The Bruce Wayne show, with lots of Gordon & Harvey, building directly up to Batman's debut at age 22 in the final episode.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I Fast forawarded all of Fish's scenes. God I hope she dies sooner rather than later. Other than that the show is solid. And pengy is awesome.


Personally, I think she's great, though maybe it's partially because I just like looking at Jada.  :Smile:

----------


## Randumbz

> Let's try to map out this series long-term.
> 
> Bruce is 12 years old at the start of the show (actor is 13), Selina is 14-15 years old at the start of the show (actress is 15).
> 
> If GOTHAM is really BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE, and the showrunners have a long-term plan in mind, then here's my prediction (presuming it doesn't get canned on cancel-happy Fox network prior to the intended series finale):
> 
> I'm presuming up to a maximum of 10 seasons, ending with the Batman's official debut.
> 
> Season 1 - 2 = The Jim Gordon & Harvey Bullock show, Bruce mostly quietly in the background, more of a meta commentary.
> ...


Sounds about right. I doubt that the show will last that long though.

----------


## Custodes

I see some folks don't like Fish. Well, she is a villain. And a nasty one. Jadas' acting seems right on. Just like I imagine a villain of that kind to be. She seems to be doing a good job, to me. 

As evil as evil can be.

----------


## ispacehead

> That wasn't the Joker, it was one of the many possibilities of Joker. As I've noticed some have already mentioned, the show runners already talked about how they are going to have people throughout the show's seasons that could possible wind up being The Joker because of their character traits. The character in the pilot was just one, and probably the most obvious we'll get of possible Joker candidates.


I didn't realize the creators of the show had said this was the case. 

Looking around, it seems that it's mostly fan speculation that there will be "many possible Jokers."

One site even suggests that there will be a different one to be featured in each episode, but I haven't noticed any such thing.

Have you?

I'd like to see an official statement on the subject if anybody has a link.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I didn't realize the creators of the show had said this was the case. 
> 
> Looking around, it seems that it's mostly fan speculation that there will be "many possible Jokers."
> 
> One site even suggests that there will be a different one to be featured in each episode, but I haven't noticed any such thing.
> 
> Have you?
> 
> I'd like to see an official statement on the subject if anybody has a link.


The creators have commented on it themselves:

“We will be playing with… Not just with Joker. Half the fun with all of these characters is who is going to turn into what and when? Certainly the Joker is a good example. In the pilot, you see there’s a comedian there. People immediately leap… And that’s really letting the audience do our work for us. Because I haven’t said anything about that guy and people go there!....Yeah, we’ll play with that down the line. Not over the course of one season, no, because people will still get tired of that. ‘Is that the Joker? Is that the Joker?’ No. In a subtle way, we’ll be doing that and hopefully we’ll fool them in the end.”

It was revealed several months before the premiere that there would be multiple jokers and not one.

----------


## heyevaxx

@Tupiaz - you beat me to the response!  :Smile: 

http://screenrant.com/gotham-tv-show-joker-actors-hint/
_But there is one nemesis that rises above the rest, but fans looking for evidence of a Joker-in-the-making will be given more than one hint in the shows first season. In fact, the showrunners apparently have several actors in line to keep fans guessing._

http://screenrant.com/gotham-tv-seri...-facts-batman/
_Joker is coming, but its going to be a slow-burn and carefully built reveal._
_Itll be a darker sort of Joker (like Heath Ledger), but a new design; they arent shying away from interpreting the character for their own universe._

----------


## ispacehead

Hmmm...Interesting quote. Not a straight forward answer.  He's obviously dancing around it as to not spoil the reveal. 

The second link doesn't necessarily say there will be many Jokers only  "it would be a “slow burn” and “carefully-built” reveal" and then an insinuation by the writer of the article.

Doesn't really change anything for me.

Like the Ivy character, I imagine we will see the comedian again.




> @Tupiaz - you beat me to the response!


Slow burn and carefully built reveal does not = multiple jokers or eliminate the comedian as possibly being the character.

Not insisting that I'm correct, but the writers of these articles are simply filling in the blanks on a statement that was made to sustain the mystery and suspense. 

Heller never said "multiple Jokers" once. Only that they would be "playing with that down the line."

Heller: “The great thing about the slow burn now is we can take our time getting there and really draw people in, and earn the right to discover somebody who may or may not be the Joker.” 

To me that doesn't sound like he's saying that The Comedian is not Joker, only that he hopes the story of how Joker surfaces is more interesting than the fact that he simply is the Joker.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Hmmm...Interesting quote. Not a straight forward answer.  He's obviously dancing around it as to not spoil the reveal. 
> 
> The second link doesn't necessarily say there will be many Jokers only  "it would be a “slow burn” and “carefully-built” reveal" and then an insinuation by the writer of the article.
> 
> Doesn't really change anything for me.
> 
> Like the Ivy character, I imagine we will see the comedian again.
> 
> 
> ...


The point is that they will have several answer to who is the Joker and it wont directly be hinted who the Joker is. Second since this is a slow burn and something the will play with down the line likely spending second season as well since the focus is on Falcon and Maroni this is season it is unlikely the actor can be used later on. Since well he needs butter on the bread as well and can wait to be used. I will said it is very unlikely we will she the comedian again. In a pilot you thrown in a lot of stuff you want to do since you need to show what you want to do. That is why Ivy is in the pilot and linked she wont be relevant until later on spoiler: Where she will get a foster home.

----------


## ispacehead

> The point is that they will have several answer to who is the Joker and it wont directly be hinted who the Joker is.[/COLOR]


This quote would lead me to believe that ultimately there will be only one.

-   In an interview with Entertainment Weekly, Heller said that the Joker is, ”the crown jewel of the Batman villains. He will be brought in with great care and a lot of thought.” 

I think that by slow burn he simply meant that we wouldn't be seeing him jumping around laughing with scars during the first season. Like many of the characters, he has a beginning. 

Heller doesn't want to say "the comedian is the joker" because he wants to show us who the man is first I'm imagining.

----------


## heyevaxx

@ispacehead - I've read a bunch of these Heller and Cannon quotes and to boil it down:

- The final Joker (scarred/deformed faced from acid/knife/whatever) will not appear in Gotham. You need final, costumed Batman before final Joker and I think they've said there won't be a costumed Batman in the Gotham series.

- Pre-Joker will be teased by showing multiple people who could become the Joker to keep viewers guessing, talking and watching.

- Pre-Joker will be sprung on us eventually according to Heller.

- The comedian in Fish's bar is probably not the person who becomes the Joker according to Cannon at NYCC.

http://collider.com/gotham-joker-det...ler-interview/
_Obviously, the question that everybody has about the show is, when will we see The Joker, and you’ve talked about wanting to establish a possible Joker, in every episode.  Why did you decide to take that route with that character?  And will we see someone who we’ll definitely know to be The Joker, by the end of the season?_

HELLER: No, not definitely.  One of the advantages of series TV is that you can change your mind and plan things as you go.  The Joker is the crown jewel of the DC villain universe.  It’s not a stumbling block, but it’s a solid issue that, in the mythology of The Joker, Batman precedes The Joker.  The Joker can’t appear as The Joker before Batman appears.  That means, in the life of this series, whoever becomes The Joker is always going to be pre-Joker, if you follow me. 

So, for all kinds of reasons, we want to be careful with that and create a real world for a real character to inhabit.  The joy of going, “Oh, look, that’s the bloke that’s gonna be The Joker,” will wear very thin, very quickly, if we’re not telling a good, true and engaging story about that character.  Not about where he’s going or what cool make-up he’s wearing, but whether you’re interested in that guy, care for him, have empathy for him, and worry about where he’s going.  Those are the issues.  It’s not about what sadistic, evil crime he’s gonna commit this week.  It’s about creating a coherent, living, three-dimensional person.

_Will some of the possibilities for The Joker be more obvious than others?_

HELLER: Yes.  Some of them will be schmuck bait for idiots, and others will be ones that only deep-thinking DC afficionados will even understand where we’re going.  And then, hopefully we’ll pull the rug out.  That’s the fun of being able to do things on two tracks.  There’s the real cognoscenti that we have to respect and listen to and understand, and then there’s the larger audience who doesn’t give a fuck.  And we have to please both those audiences, equally.

http://foxct.com/2014/10/13/fox-at-new-york-comic-con/
When asked if the young comedian from Fish Mooney’s club in the pilot was the future Joker, Cannon gave a long pause before saying that they’re going “way, way back” for the Joker, and that he “probably isn’t telling jokes yet.”  That seems a safe enough assumption that the boy is not, and will not be, Gotham‘s version of the Joker.

----------


## ispacehead

Wow. Thanks for the link. 

I have to read the whole thing but what I see doesn't necessarily rule out the comedian or suggest that there will be multiple actors that may or may not be the joker.

I took this:

Will some of the possibilities for The Joker be more obvious than others?

HELLER: Yes. Some of them will be schmuck bait for idiots, and others will be ones that only deep-thinking DC afficionados will even understand where we’re going.

...to be in reference to character plot points rather than a bait and switch on the characters identity, but I guess we'll see.

Looks like a great interview though. I will need to look at it a little more closely later.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I seriously hate waiting for the next episode lol.

----------


## Godzilla2099

The 4th Episode:

I liked it but I found it the weakest of them.

-Cobblepot is moving up the ladder and getting more twisted and diabolical.  His plan had huge risks when he hid in the fridge with all that cash.  Maroni's thugs could have gunned him down.  Hell, even the hit men he hired could have offed him and took the rest of the loot.

-I didn't get the scenes with Fish Mooney.  It was just 'wtf'.  She ends up hiring some stoned putz chic which Fish is looking to use as a 'weapon?'  What kind of weapon?  Seductress?  The chic was sloppy.  She obviously lacks brains, grace, and natural talent.  But it looks like she'll do anything for a buck.

-I liked the Assassin.  He was menacing.  However, his weapon of choice was odd.  A flute that turned into a spike?  Ok.  Also, it took quite some time to put the damn thing together.  I was REALLY hoping that putz of a mayor would have got killed.  I mean damn, if you're going to take time putting a spike together at least have a hidden mechanism where it could kill the guy at a further distance

- I can see Barbara's Point.  She's no saint but at least she came clean.  Gordon bro, don't let this job ruin your life (although we all know in the end it does)

- No Falcone =/

----------


## Chickfighter

> The 4th Episode:
> 
> I liked it but I found it the weakest of them.
> 
> -Cobblepot is moving up the ladder and getting more twisted and diabolical.  His plan had huge risks when he hid in the fridge with all that cash.  Maroni's thugs could have gunned him down.  Hell, even the hit men he hired could have offed him and took the rest of the loot.
> 
> -I didn't get the scenes with Fish Mooney.  It was just 'wtf'.  She ends up hiring some stoned putz chic which Fish is looking to use as a 'weapon?'  What kind of weapon?  Seductress?  The chic was sloppy.  She obviously lacks brains, grace, and natural talent.  But it looks like she'll do anything for a buck.
> 
> -I liked the Assassin.  He was menacing.  However, his weapon of choice was odd.  A flute that turned into a spike?  Ok.  Also, it took quite some time to put the damn thing together.  I was REALLY hoping that putz of a mayor would have got killed.  I mean damn, if you're going to take time putting a spike together at least have a hidden mechanism where it could kill the guy at a further distance
> ...


I pretty much agree with all this. And more importantly, other than perhaps Selina, I don't know that there's any character here that I actually "like." So there will need to be a lot of Selina as an intricate part of the goings on soon or I'll be moving on.

----------


## heyevaxx

@Chickfighter: On Selina ...

- She's my fave character and performer so I too missed her in episode 4.

- Fish had extended time this episode plus the assassin had 2 kills and the attack on the Mayor - all this chewed up possible Selina time.

- Camren, David and Clare all have schooling responsibilities which limits their show time. I hope we get at least some Ivy eventually.

- Camren is still dancing and working out which takes up more time.

- Selina, after Oswald, has been a big fan favorite.

Heller/Cannon recently mentioned that Selina will be meeting and talking with Bruce soon. I'm sure the Gotham producers have loads more Selina coming our way re: the search for the killer, search for her mother, bouncing her between the street/juvi/foster homes/etc, developing her crime skills, etc.

----------


## Big Geek

I finally had some free time and I did a mini marathon and watched episodes 2-4.  I thought the Pilot episode was weak and the acting was awful but most Pilots aren't very good as they are trying to appeal to as wide an audience as possible to hook as many people as possible.

2-4 was just as bad as the Pilot for me.  I find the acting to be AWFUL for pretty much everyone other than Cobblepot and Nygma.  The stories just don't flow and the characters are all pretty much unlikable.  Bruce Wayne is a whiney brat and Alfred is an unlikeable jerk.  

I don't mean to pee in the cereal but as a huge fan of Batman and anything and everything Gotham, I just can't stick with it.  

Perhaps it's me?  Oh well, Carry on.

----------


## PretenderNX01

While most shows don't increase the viewership of their commercials during the Live+3 delay, Gotham is one of few shows who's commercial viewership within 3 days (C3) increased buy almost a full point for it's pilot episode.




> When the three days of commercial deliveries were factored in, the Week One average inched up just 5%, to a 2.5 rating. In other words, despite all the marked increases the networks are touting with their time-shifted program ratings, the evidence continues to show that viewers who "catch up" via their DVRs are usually zipping through the ads.





> Fox's Batman origin story "Gotham" soared from its initial 3.3 rating to a 4.2 in C3, gaining nearly an entire ratings point in playback mode for an almost unheard-of increase of 27%. Not coincidentally, "Gotham" was also the No. 1 VOD program in Week One on Comcast's Xfinity On Demand platform.


http://adage.com/article/media/comme...-small/295417/

----------


## Chickfighter

> @Chickfighter: On Selina ...
> 
> - She's my fave character and performer so I too missed her in episode 4.
> 
> - Fish had extended time this episode plus the assassin had 2 kills and the attack on the Mayor - all this chewed up possible Selina time.
> 
> - Camren, David and Clare all have schooling responsibilities which limits their show time. I hope we get at least some Ivy eventually.
> 
> - Camren is still dancing and working out which takes up more time.
> ...


Hope so. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll soon be in Big Geek's camp on this one. So many comic-based shows to choose from this year that one can be picky.

----------


## Tupiaz

Some clips has been released for the next episode Viper.
There is three more clips after this one. However the site only let me post one video.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Some clips has been released for the next episode Viper.
> There is three more clips after this one. However the site only let me post one video.


Thanks for posting this Tupiaz!!

----------


## Randumbz

> Some clips has been released for the next episode Viper.
> There is three more clips after this one. However the site only let me post one video.


Looks like the show is starting to get better.

----------


## godisawesome

"It's lunch!"

Bullock is still the most consistently great part of the show, though Selina was also nice in that scene. Hopefully, they tie her back into the main plots soon.

And I'm calling it; Viper the street drug will have someone take it, and try and refine it into Venom.

----------


## Tupiaz

> "It's lunch!"
> 
> Bullock is still the most consistently great part of the show, though Selina was also nice in that scene. Hopefully, they tie her back into the main plots soon.
> 
> And I'm calling it; Viper the street drug will have someone take it, and try and refine it into Venom.


Apparently you first become ecstatic and then you die.  It sounds more like a nod towards the joker than anything else. However a guy walking away with an ATM sounds like somebody pumped on venom. 




> Looks like the show is starting to get better.


It does even though I never think it was that bad. However the ATM taken by somebody with their bare hands seems a bit far away from the realistic tone they have chosen for the show.

----------


## nathdog

I have liked the first two episodes aired in Australia but there were times that I thought that the show is going to be a general cop show using established characters to sell itself to audiences.  Unfortunately for the show, I watched the first episode of season 5 of the walking dead the following night and it blew Gotham away.

Gotham does have a distinct darkness about the shoe, especially the child appears taking their victims to the Dollmaker and the Pengui.....oops sorry Oswald... slicing up the college students in the car.  The Penguin is the most interesting character and really captures the darkness of the series for me.  I think there is more to Alfred given the nautre of Sean Pertwee's acting where the producers might go,down the road of having Alfred as ex-army or spy etc. he just doesn't seem the Butler type.  I am not sure why Fish is in the show, perhaps she provides an avenue for titilation?

Being a Batman fan I am really interested where they take the show as Gotham's characters offer rich opportunities to try new things.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> It does even though I never think it was that bad. However the ATM taken by somebody with their bare hands seems a bit far away from the realistic tone they have chosen for the show.


I think the writing and the direction was superior in the last episode. 

It also had a Game of Thrones sort of vibe with the big players and their pawns fighting for power with conspiracies, betrayals, lies and murder.

This series is going to be great for the Penguin's popularity. I just hope it doesn't erase his volatility as a trait in other versions.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> It does even though I never think it was that bad. However the ATM taken by somebody with their bare hands seems a bit far away from the realistic tone they have chosen for the show.


I once saw a lady bending frying pans with her bare hands.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I once saw a lady bending frying pans with her bare hands.


Bending a fyring pan and walking with an ATM machine is nit quite the same. http://www.answers.com/Q/How_heavy_is_an_ATM_machine




> I think the writing and the direction was superior in the last episode. 
> 
> It also had a Game of Thrones sort of vibe with the big players and their pawns fighting for power with conspiracies, betrayals, lies and murder.
> 
> This series is going to be great for the Penguin's popularity. I just hope it doesn't erase his volatility as a trait in other versions.


I don't quite see him having a volatile personality care to explain?

----------


## Kid A

I think the show is fine in quality, even if it has obvious imperfections.  They just need to figure out if they want to do gritty or campy.  I'm all for straddling the line between the two, but not this bipolar style.

----------


## Aioros22

> No my argument makes sense you are trying to defend bad writing on a bad show.I've been reading Bat's for years he's really supposed to be Batman the minute his parents are killed.Bruce Wayne is just a mask after that.Martial training should have started on the second episode weightlifting running.Detective training and forensics come later it would definitely make this show more interesting.


I don`t know if you noticed, but this is a Batman forum. Most posters here have been Reading the character for years. Case in point, Bruce doesn`t become "Batman" the moment he swears that oath as a child, that merely gave his life a purpose, a path. He *isn`*t the Phantom. 

"Batman" is born after miserably failing on his first night out and Bruce realizing you can`t just kick on crime nonsentically. Until then he was a human Pinnacle without wisdom on mothods or identity. In that respect he`s much more like Zorro who set the final piece of the puzzle after growing up. At this point all the kid knows is that he wants to fight injustice, he got no idea on "how". But first he needs to accept his parent`s death. 

Your running down on each episode having Bruce doing different kinds of training is too comic book exagerated. It`s not just how early you start, it`s how dedicated you get once you start. "Arrow" had Ollie going from colleage jock to martial arts master in a span of 5 years and he was already an adult. You have to bring a level of realism to the show and a child stone-cold starting to train because he already knows he wants to wear a cape and ears as an adult doesn`t work.

----------


## ThiefHookUps

> Its bad camp and trying to be serious at the same time does not work.It's a show that has no idea about what it wants to be.Its lost writing they don't seem to know where they are going with it.Why is Bruce not training?He is just sitting around sulking and acting depressed.It just feels bullshit and not Batman he should be more driven.


You think a few weeks after his parents' death, child Bruce immediately began his physical combat training?

----------


## Nite-Wing

> You think a few weeks after his parents' death, child Bruce immediately began his physical combat training?


Not in the comics when he was 8 but in this show he's just about a teenager now.

----------


## ThiefHookUps

How old is he supposed to be? 11 or 12? I think it'd be a little silly to see him training by episode 4. He's mourning and figuring things out. The training will come I'm sure. What do you think?

@Tupiaz: "I don't quite see him having a volatile personality care to explain?"

I think he might be referring to anytime someone makes a casual reference to a penguin he flips the hell out and kills them. That's pretty volatile haha. He's calculating but has the unpredictable streak. I agree that I hope they maintain that.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Not in the comics when he was 8 but in this show he's just about a teenager now.


At any age, it's farfetched to believe anybody would immediately train and prepare to fight crime right after the death of a loved one(s)..

----------


## doodledude

> I don`t know if you noticed, but this is a Batman forum. Most posters here have been Reading the character for years. Case in point, Bruce doesn`t become "Batman" the moment he swears that oath as a child, that merely gave his life a purpose, a path. He *isn`*t the Phantom. 
> 
> "Batman" is born after miserably failing on his first night out and Bruce realizing you can`t just kick on crime nonsentically. Until then he was a human Pinnacle without wisdom on mothods or identity. In that respect he`s much more like Zorro who set the final piece of the puzzle after growing up. At this point all the kid knows is that he wants to fight injustice, he got no idea on "how". But first he needs to accept his parent`s death. 
> 
> Your running down on each episode having Bruce doing different kinds of training is too comic book exagerated. It`s not just how early you start, it`s how dedicated you get once you start. "Arrow" had Ollie going from colleage jock to martial arts master in a span of 5 years and he was already an adult. You have to bring a level of realism to the show and a child stone-cold starting to train because he already knows he wants to wear a cape and ears as an adult doesn`t work.


Im saying that from a mental standpoint he is Batman after his parents death.He is driven to fight crime and to stop what happened to him from happening to others.I see him starting to train as soon as possible.The mental aspects of the character will come easy.Batman is a genius even as a child.You don't become a genius overnight you are born a genius.Martial training would take years to master.He is not just an ok martial artist he is one the best on the planet.From my research Batman Richard Dragon Bronze Tiger Lady Shiva and Cobra were the best hand to hand human combatants in DC.Deathstroke was always a gauge because he had fighting skills but was also ultra human.Cassandra Cain came along later and got in the mix because she killed Lady Shiva hand to hand so it seemed in the Batgirl comic.Arrow at his best in the comics was never in the top tier hand to hand combatants.Batman Richard Dragon Shiva Bronze Tiger and Cobra were grandmasters of martial arts in the DC universe for a long time.Anytime they had a fight it could go either way.Batman would start his martial training young he is a far better fighter than Ollie will ever be.Ollie was never ever part of the discussion when it came to hand to hand combatants.If I remember correctly Ollie's son was a great martial artist and was rising far better than his father.Another problem I have with the show is that Bruce does not feel super intelligent.He should be smart and witty as Damian.Damian was just a half clone of Bruce.Bruce is the real Bruce 100 percent.But on the show I have not seen any flashes of a brilliant mind.

----------


## byrd156

> At any age, it's farfetched to believe anybody would immediately train and prepare to fight crime right after the death of a loved one(s)..


When Bruce's parents died when he was 8, didn't he stay in Gotham until he was 13 or 14 and then leave to train?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> When Bruce's parents died when he was 8, didn't he stay in Gotham until he was 13 or 14 and then leave to train?


Something like that, depending on which origin you're reading at the moment.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Im saying that from a mental standpoint he is Batman after his parents death.He is driven to fight crime and to stop what happened to him from happening to others.I see him starting to train as soon as possible.The mental aspects of the character will come easy.Batman is a genius even as a child.You don't become a genius overnight you are born a genius.Martial training would take years to master.He is not just an ok martial artist he is one the best on the planet.From my research Batman Richard Dragon Bronze Tiger Lady Shiva and Cobra were the best hand to hand human combatants in DC.Deathstroke was always a gauge because he had fighting skills but was also ultra human.Cassandra Cain came along later and got in the mix because she killed Lady Shiva hand to hand so it seemed in the Batgirl comic.Arrow at his best in the comics was never in the top tier hand to hand combatants.Batman Richard Dragon Shiva Cobra were grandmasters of martial arts in the DC universe for a long time.Anytime they had a fight it could go either way.Batman would start his martial training young he is a far better fighter than Ollie will ever be.Ollie was never ever part of the discussion when it came to hand to hand combatants.If I remember correctly Ollie's son was a great martial artist and was rising far better than his father.Another problem I have with the show is that Bruce does not feel super intelligent.He should be smart and witty as Damian.Damian was just a half clone of Bruce.Bruce is the real Bruce 100 percent.But on the show I have not seen any flashes of a brilliant mind.


Could you please make a space after you have made a punctuation. Likewise use comma between each name when you mention multiple names. It is hard to read what you write simply because of these few steps. You believe being a genius is pure genetics that is not the case you also has to work hard for it. Batman is btw not a genius in the sense that he will rethink science. He is much more practical and something he has trained to be. I will recommend you read Shaman, Prey, Year One, THL,  and DV and you will see that Batman isn't mentally Batman at age 8. Heck even Nolan's movies shows this perfectly. 

Olie is btw a very god hand to hand fighter he is very underrated in this regard because he is primarily know for his abilities at range.




> Something like that, depending on which origin you're reading at the moment.


In the TV series he is 12.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> In the TV series he is 12.


Right. We were talking strictly comics.

----------


## doodledude

> Could you please make a space after you have made a punctuation. Likewise use comma between each name when you mention multiple names. It is hard to read what you write simply because of these few steps. You believe being a genius is pure genetics that is not the case you also has to work hard for it. Batman is btw not a genius in the sense that he will rethink science. He is much more practical and something he has trained to be. I will recommend you read Shaman, Prey, Year One, THL,  and DV and you will see that Batman isn't mentally Batman at age 8. Heck even Nolan's movies shows this perfectly. 
> 
> Olie is btw a very god hand to hand fighter he is very underrated in this regard because he is primarily know for his abilities at range.
> 
> 
> 
> In the TV series he is 12.


No I respectfully disagree with you.Bruce is a born genius and is very intelligent before his parents murder.The murder of his parents just gives him the engine to do something with his intelligence.He is a knife the murder of his parents gives him reason to sharpen it for a certain purpose.If his parents had not died he would have been a genius at buisness or some other area besides crimefighting.Ollie was never one of DC'S great hand to hand combatants.He may be now but not in prior DC universes.Oh and by the way I have read all those comics.

----------


## Aioros22

> Im saying that from a mental standpoint he is Batman after his parents death.


He isn`t. He vows to not let injustice happen but he`s got no idea on how he`s going to achieve such notion. Per his origin from day one, he only becomes actually "Batman" as an adult and by most writers he spent his teenager years a loner. His oath only hints to readers what he will become years later.  




> He is driven to fight crime and to stop what happened to him from happening to others.I see him starting to train as soon as possible..


He is driven but he`s got no plan whatsoever on how to accomplish such a thing and what he needs to do. He needs to find his way out of revenge first. Like I said, he`s not the Phantom. He doesn`t start training as a pup so one day he gets to take his father`s place. 




> The mental aspects of the character will come easy.Batman is a genius even as a child.You don't become a genius overnight you are born a genius..


And because he`s something of a prodigy that means he maps his whole life path right away? That`s not how it works. Where did you read Bruce being such a genius since that age anyway? He was smart, but that isn`t particularly unique in real life or fiction. 




> Martial training would take years to master.He is not just an ok martial artist he is one the best on the planet.


Sure, it takes years and he`s got years ahead. 

In real life athletes start early because they are either going to perform or get in offcial competitions (and a good deal of them are encouraged to do so by family). Bruce isn`t doing either. In comic book terms, most of the Kit Walker line started training to be Phantoms since a very early age due to a huge motivator bigger than themselves: the lineage, the whole history, the immortality. But the ones who didn`t? They end up piking it up. Drive needs to meet the motivator. 




> Arrow at his best in the comics was never in the top tier hand to hand combatants.


He is in the tv show, hence my reference. 




> He should be smart and witty as Damian.Damian was just a half clone of Bruce.Bruce is the real Bruce 100 percent.But on the show I have not seen any flashes of a brilliant mind.


I don`t recall Damian being particularly witty. Certainly cult and with flahes of false nobility, but he was engenered to be that way. 

Here`s the thing. You kind of want "Batgod" and it`s not going to happen if they want this to run a couple seasons. Part of the trill is to slowly see Bruce finding out his way, not to suddently say "hey, parents dead, better start training!"

----------


## Aioros22

> No I respectfully disagree with you.Bruce is a born genius and is very intelligent before his parents murder.The murder of his parents just gives him the engine to do something with his intelligence.He is a knife the murder of his parents gives him reason to sharpen it for a certain purpose.If his parents had not died he would have been a genius at buisness or some other area besides crimefighting.Ollie was never one of DC'S great hand to hand combatants.He may be now but not in prior DC universes.


Ok, how about you let us know which stories have you read that describe Bruce the way you say? I`m curious. 

A genius of business? You realize there are stories where Bruce learns to properly run the company the hard way?

----------


## doodledude

> Ok, how about you let us know which stories have you read that describe Bruce the way you say? I`m curious. 
> 
> A genius of business? You realize there are stories where Bruce learns to properly run the company the hard way?


Grant  Morrison and Frank Miller's work probally inform my view of Batman Mike W Barr's Batman from the eighties along with the Outsiders I really love.I really like Snyder's take also I really feel like he get's Batman.Dennis O'neil old stuff from the seventies.It just all swirls together informing how I see Batman.I do love Morrison's Batgod from his JLA run I cannot lie.He even bought him down a notch when he started writing the Batbooks.I love Batman and I feel like I know when he's being done right by.This show I don't know it could just be better.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> At any age, it's farfetched to believe anybody would immediately train and prepare to fight crime right after the death of a loved one(s)..


Yeah this is true but in Gotham lil Bruce is cutting and hurting himself and generally displaying unchildlike behavior so they might as well get him started doing something productive that helps him become Batman.

----------


## ispacehead

> Yeah this is true but in Gotham lil Bruce is cutting and hurting himself and generally displaying unchildlike behavior so they might as well get him started doing something productive that helps him become Batman.


We get that from seeing that he is gathering information about his parents murder case, and other cases that may seem related.

The pace they've taken with Bruce's personal progress and the progression in his relationship with Alfred has worked for me. They don't seem to be dawdling for long, just hitting the necessary marks to establish the growth.

I would guess that Bruce might take interest in self defense later in the series after some other still unwritten incident. It seems to be implied pretty heavily that he already has become quite adept at fencing.... one can only wonder what else he might already know.

In any event, I think it's too early for standing on one hand, or a flaming obstacle course.  :Wink:

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Grant  Morrison and Frank Miller's work probally inform my view of Batman Mike W Barr's Batman from the eighties along with the Outsiders I really love.I really like Snyder's take also I really feel like he get's Batman.Dennis O'neil old stuff from the seventies.It just all swirls together informing how I see Batman.I do love Morrison's Batgod from his JLA run I cannot lie.He even bought him down a notch when he started writing the Batbooks.I love Batman and I feel like I know when he's being done right by.This show I don't know it could just be better.


How does Snyder "get Batman" any more than all the others you mentioned or the ones you didn't? 
I think he does the contemporary, relatively darker version of these days a bit better than the rest, although he doesn't have much competition. 
Other than that you seem to be well informed. I'd just add Conway, Dini, Timm, Englehart, Dozier, Breyfogle, Fox and Finger to the mix to have the absolute version.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Bending a fyring pan and walking with an ATM machine is nit quite the same. http://www.answers.com/Q/How_heavy_is_an_ATM_machine
> 
> 
> 
> I don't quite see him having a volatile personality care to explain?


The Penguin is usually Tony Montana in supervillain situations. So far, in every series and in most comics, the Penguin can go from charming, to throw tantrums depending on what he is doing.  When he wants stuff from people he usually plays mr. charming, the second he perceives a menace, he goes into attack mode. Even if he is a coward, like in Arkham, he is highly volatile when cornered.

----------


## doodledude

> How does Snyder "get Batman" any more than all the others you mentioned or the ones you didn't? 
> I think he does the contemporary, relatively darker version of these days a bit better than the rest, although he doesn't have much competition. 
> Other than that you seem to be well informed. I'd just add Conway, Dini, Timm, Englehart, Dozier, Breyfogle, Fox and Finger to the mix to have the absolute version.


Dini and Timm Your talking about Batman the animated series I guess.Yeah thats good stuff. Jeff Matsudas Batman cartoon is underated I think.I think of all the writer's in the 2000,s era Snyder is trying to bring new things to the mythos and not just reimagining old stuff.But he does have the restart to help him.I also think Court of owls was the best Batman story that I've read in a long time I mean a long time since like the eighties.That's why I singled him out.Breyfogle's art I never liked visually Neil Adams Jim Lee Alan Davis Frank Miller Michel Golden Berni Wrightson define the look of Batman for me.Joker 5 ways revenge really stands out but I dont have all Englehart's Batman stuff.Greg Capullo drawing comics after years on hiatus is a treat from Snyders run also.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Dini and Timm Your talking about Batman the animated series I guess.Yeah thats good stuff. Jeff Matsudas Batman cartoon is underated I think.I think of all the writer's in the 2000,s era Snyder is trying to bring new things to the mythos and not just reimagining old stuff.But he does have the restart to help him.I also think Court of owls was the best Batman story that I've read in a long time I mean a long time since like the eighties.That's why I singled him out.Breyfogle's art I never liked visually Neil Adams Jim Lee Alan Davis Frank Miller Michel Golden Berni Wrightson define the look of Batman for me.Joker 5 ways revenge really stands out but I dont have all Englehart's Batman stuff.Greg Capullo drawing comics after years on hiatus is a treat from Snyders run also.


Matsuda is underated because he isn't as good. Early BTAS had a lot of hit or miss, while saving face because of the tight production. Despite improvements in animation consistency, The Batman had really predictable plots until Burnett took over and made it a bit more like BTAS.

I don't perceive Snyder as particularly original. Loeb was definitively refrying his routine of refrying old villains while introducing an overarching whodunnit villain. Dini was a rather "back to the basics" approach, which was a good idea. Morrison definitively did something new with the character. He basically put a pin on the rogues gallery and the usual Gotham setting to introduce new challenges. Snyder did yet another Joker story, which feels a lot like the character is just revisiting stuff he has done before and Zero Year, which is yet another Batman origin. While his exploration of regular psychopaths is interedting, it has been done before (At least in the first Black and White) and it basically ruined Gordon Jr. (and that's too much for a single family). I couldn't care less about the Court (teacher's pet). Since the 80s? C'mon. 
Breyfogle is a good artist, but he is often mentioned as a reference because all the writers and titles during his run were pretty good. 
Jose Luis Garcia Lopez defines Batman for me. Even if he didn't work that much with the character.
Capullo's Batman is ok for me.

----------


## doodledude

> Matsuda is underated because he isn't as good. Early BTAS had a lot of hit or miss, while saving face because of the tight production. Despite improvements in animation consistency, The Batman had really predictable plots until Burnett took over and made it a bit more like BTAS.
> 
> I don't perceive Snyder as particularly original. Loeb was definitively refrying his routine of refrying old villains while introducing an overarching whodunnit villain. Dini was a rather "back to the basics" approach, which was a good idea. Morrison definitively did something new with the character. He basically put a pin on the rogues gallery and the usual Gotham setting to introduce new challenges. Snyder did yet another Joker story, which feels a lot like the character is just revisiting stuff he has done before and Zero Year, which is yet another Batman origin. While his exploration of regular psychopaths is interedting, it has been done before (At least in the first Black and White) and it basically ruined Gordon Jr. (and that's too much for a single family). I couldn't care less about the Court (teacher's pet). Since the 80s? C'mon. 
> Breyfogle is a good artist, but he is often mentioned as a reference because all the writers and titles during his run were pretty good. 
> Jose Luis Garcia Lopez defines Batman for me. Even if he didn't work that much with the character.
> Capullo's Batman is ok for me.


Garcia Lopez is one of my fondest and earliest comic memories.That Batman VS Hulk comic. My grandmother bought it for me at the IGA grocery store after I threw a shit fit because she was not going to buy it for me.It might have been the been the book that made me a comic fan and an artist.Because I would trace and copy drawings out of it.It also made me think until I was older that DC and Marvel heroes lived in the same place.Which is probaly why I'm a Marvel and a DC fan.

----------


## The Whovian

> Matsuda is underated because he isn't as good. Early BTAS had a lot of hit or miss, while saving face because of the tight production. Despite improvements in animation consistency, The Batman had really predictable plots until Burnett took over and made it a bit more like BTAS.
> 
> *I don't perceive Snyder as particularly original*. Loeb was definitively refrying his routine of refrying old villains while introducing an overarching whodunnit villain. Dini was a rather "back to the basics" approach, which was a good idea. Morrison definitively did something new with the character. He basically put a pin on the rogues gallery and the usual Gotham setting to introduce new challenges. Snyder did yet another Joker story, which feels a lot like the character is just revisiting stuff he has done before and Zero Year, which is yet another Batman origin. While his exploration of regular psychopaths is interedting, it has been done before (At least in the first Black and White) and it basically ruined Gordon Jr. (and that's too much for a single family). I couldn't care less about the Court (teacher's pet). Since the 80s? C'mon. 
> Breyfogle is a good artist, but he is often mentioned as a reference because all the writers and titles during his run were pretty good. 
> Jose Luis Garcia Lopez defines Batman for me. Even if he didn't work that much with the character.
> Capullo's Batman is ok for me.


I agree about Dini. Loved his run. I do _disagree_ though about Snyder. He has brought some original stuff to Batman, especially with the Court of Owls.

----------


## doodledude

> I agree about Dini. Loved his run. I do _disagree_ though about Snyder. He has brought some original stuff to Batman, especially with the Court of Owls.


Court of Owls rocked me there is a certain segment where you kind of experience Batman being dizzy and drugged out.You have to keep turning the book upside down and sideways.In all my years of reading comics I have never seen an artist and writer do that.After that sequence it just got better and better.It's a brilliant piece of sequential art not just a good Batman comic.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Could The Reaper work as an early boogeyman in GOTHAM's universe?



I vaguely recall his original story (in YEAR TWO) was that he initially pre-dated the debut of Batman by several years and then made a comeback after Bats showed up.

I would love to see the Reaper, Doctor Death, and Hugo Strange all made their debuts in GOTHAM either season or (hopefully) next season.

Imagine Jim Gordon in place of Batman here:

----------


## doodledude

> Could The Reaper work as an early boogeyman in GOTHAM's universe?
> 
> 
> 
> I vaguely recall his original story (in YEAR TWO) was that he initially pre-dated the debut of Batman by several years and then made a comeback after Bats showed up.
> 
> I would love to see the Reaper, Doctor Death, and Hugo Strange all made their debuts in GOTHAM either season or (hopefully) next season.


Classic Mike W Barr right there.I could see how they could do a version of "The player on the other side." Having the young Jim Gordon kill a poor kids parents in a police raid.Then following him through his journey to becoming a villain while Bruce is becoming a hero.

----------


## Tupiaz

If they are going to bring in vigilantes pre Batman (which I'm not necessarily a fan of) maybe the Cavalier (Blades version) an idea.




> The Penguin is usually Tony Montana in supervillain situations. So far, in every series and in most comics, the Penguin can go from charming, to throw tantrums depending on what he is doing.  When he wants stuff from people he usually plays mr. charming, the second he perceives a menace, he goes into attack mode. Even if he is a coward, like in Arkham, he is highly volatile when cornered.


I see.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

So the guy in this episode seems to follow in the tradition of villains who talk too much when they should be getting the job done.  If he didn't say that little quip first, Bullock and Gordon wouldn't have shot him before he killed the mayor.




> Of course it's Oswald that steals the show. I'm loving his slow rise through manipulation. Maybe once Fish is out of the picture, he'll open up the Iceberg Lounge/Casino.


I could see that.




> It was obvious that Cobblepot put poison in the cannoli from the start. Why didn't the goons get suspicious when he stared at them while they ate and didn't eat any of it himself?


Obvious to us, maybe, but not to them.  Cobblepot just got them a huge score that was beneficial for all parties and everyone was happy.  Just because he didn't eat a canoli doesn't mean they'd jump to the conclusion he's poisoning them.




> -I liked the Assassin.  He was menacing.  However, his weapon of choice was odd.  A flute that turned into a spike?  Ok.  Also, it took quite some time to put the damn thing together.  I was REALLY hoping that putz of a mayor would have got killed.  I mean damn, if you're going to take time putting a spike together at least have a hidden mechanism where it could kill the guy at a further distance


Am I the only one who thinks Cobblepot is going to appropriate that technology into an umbrella weapon?

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I could see how they could do a version of "The player on the other side." Having the young Jim Gordon kill a poor kids parents in a police raid.Then following him through his journey to becoming a villain while Bruce is becoming a hero.


Did you miss the pilot where young Jim Gordon killed Ivy Pepper's dad in a raid?  :Cool:

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Did you miss the pilot where young Jim Gordon killed Ivy Pepper's dad in a raid?


I did. I remember Harvey killing him to save Gordon's life after Pepper ran and Gordon tried to apprehend him.

----------


## Abishai100

*Simon Says*


I'd like to talk about something very interesting in the subtext of "Gotham" (Fox TV).  This is fast becoming a lauded comic book adapted television program.  The vigilantism-fantasy entertainment sector (i.e., comic books) has been booming.

It is perhaps therefore semi-accurate to note that "Gotham" (Fox TV) has us all playing a Simon Says game.   Simon Says is a simple command-response challenge game in which the game-master delivers dares or daring commands, and the contestants must follow the instructions exactly and only if the game-master precedes the command prompt with the words "Simon Says."  The game is meant to trick people's sensibilities about basic Pavlovian conditioning.  When the human brain keeps hearing commands from the same commander, it may forget to listen to all the exact procedures surrounding the command (i.e., context).

"Gotham" (Fox TV) provides so much stimulation regarding modern social fascination with vigilantism-themed fantasy scenarios, that audiences are somewhat humbled by this new trend in entertainment.  We're conditioned Pavlovian-style to just blindly watch these slick Gotham City nemeses develop their labyrinths.

I would not be surprised if Batman costume sales rise for Halloween 2014.



 :EEK!: 

Riddlerr[1].jpg

----------


## BatGlamorous

> Could The Reaper work as an early boogeyman in GOTHAM's universe?


Definitely, if only in one of the later seasons. I think there should be a slow burn from crime bosses and murderers to so-called "costumed freaks". Characters like Zsas, Holiday (as a recurring plot thread), and even Anarky and Spoiler I could all see working in the early Gothamverse. I could also see Batman's rogues outdating him by a season or two, and him donning the cowl in response to them instead of vise versa. If they save Batman _and_ the rogues all for the last season I think the show will run the risk of getting boring pretty fast.

----------


## Dabrikishaw

Oh crap, does the title "Viper" mean Bane's venom?

----------


## Pinsir

> Oh crap, does the title "Viper" mean Bane's venom?




I bet its Maxie Zues though

EDIT: Eh nevermind

----------


## Dabrikishaw

Proto-Bane went down.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

"Viper" I thought this was better than last week.  Gotham has definitely become the Penguin show and that's not a bad thing by any means.  I'm really enjoying David Zayas as Salvatore Maroni.  Nice to see Venom mentioned.

----------


## InformationGeek

Another episode I enjoyed.  Very enjoyable to watch and I'm liking some of these new plotthreads building.

----------


## Pinsir

> Another episode I enjoyed.  Very enjoyable to watch and I'm liking some of these new *banethreads* building.


I like your thinking!

----------


## Vic Vega

This episode, Bulluck almost gets killed by an old man with a walker. 

The episode before that he was nearly killed by a TV set hurled by what might have been a transvestite.

Then Gordon was nearly killed by weather balloon.

Being a Gotham cop isn't just dangerous its humiliating.

----------


## Guy1

> This episode, Bulluck almost gets killed by an old man with a walker. 
> 
> The episode before that he was nearly killed by a TV set hurled by what might have been a transvestite.
> 
> Then Gordon was nearly killed by weather balloon.
> 
> Being a Gotham cop isn't just dangerous its humiliating.


To be fair, the old man was on roids.  :Wink:

----------


## SXVA

Weakest episode so far imo.

Wasn't feeling the venom storyline.

However, the young Bruce stuff and Bullock being hilarious made up for it... really liked when Alfred sat down and started to help Bruce in his quest, no words were spoken and it was a short scene but the smile by Bruce and Alfred being there for Bruce said it all.

----------


## Kid A

A lot of suspense is killed knowing that Falcone won't lose.

----------


## MykeHavoc

Best episode yet. As I suspected, the directing, editing, acting, scripting, pacing etc. would all improve with time, and 5 episodes in, we have made a fairly large jump in quality. I can only imagine it getting even better.

----------


## tabo61

I enjoyed watching Edward Nygma's reaction when he was looking at all the Venom drug users in custody struggling with GCPD at the headquarters.

----------


## Tupiaz

Did other see the easter egg with Zorro on the TV (at least that is what I believe it was). It was the B/W movie right seen right after Alfred woke up Bruce who had been sleeping on the coach and before the TV broadcast about viper.

Not the biggest fan of the episode whoever Edward clearly proves he lacks empathy in this episode. He was pretty creepy. He is slowly but steady growing as a character. I had problem with as to why Bullock and Gordon had to deal with Viper. They are in homocide not the drug apartment it made no sense until after the city was filled with super power people who killed people. But chasing the guy who stole the ATM? Made no sense what so ever. I chose to just go with it but not solid writing.

----------


## CatBoy

I obviously love the Selina Kyle character - she feels like the young Selina from the comics - but Fish Mooney is a very close #2. I love that Fish almost feels like a modern-day Eartha Kitt. I'm hoping that at some point she takes young Selina under her wing and helps form her in to who she becomes as Catwoman. Especially in the direction Selina is going in comics currently as the new Kingpin of Gotham.

----------


## ispacehead

I thought this episode was better than last week.

I love what they're doing with Bruce. So pragmatic, and practical. I had wondered how they would write him into the show as a child and make it work. I can't wait to see him seize control of Wayne Enterprises.

----------


## PretenderNX01

I like how the series trolls us.  :Stick Out Tongue:  The episode "Selena" wasn't really about her and with "Viper" everybody was freaking out about Bane's drug being introduced when it wasn't really about that so much as uncovering corruption in Wayne Enterprises and the crime families politicking.




> But chasing the guy who stole the ATM? Made no sense what so ever.


It's Gordon going above and beyond to get his man, even though Bullock never wanted to get involved. Just part of their character. 




> A lot of suspense is killed knowing that Falcone won't lose.


I think you make a lot of assumptions. They're not beholden to setting up Year One in it's entirety and even if they wanted the pieces there, it could be after he's had to rebuild some thanks to Fish, Penguin and so on tearing him apart for a while.

----------


## CatBoy

> I like how the series trolls us.  The episode "Selena" wasn't really about her and with "Viper" everybody was freaking out about Bane's drug being introduced when it wasn't really about that so much as uncovering corruption in Wayne Enterprises and the crime families politicking.


Not to mention the dude with the balloons wearing a pig-mask... thinking it's Professor Pyg... g*ddamnit.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Good episode, even Nigma kinda worked this episode.

----------


## ABH

I really didn't like any of the Viper stuff, it just all looked really bad.

Everything else was great, though. Especially, Alfred beginning to help Bruce in his detective work and everything with Maroni and Penguin/Cobblepot.

----------


## Kid A

> I think you make a lot of assumptions. They're not beholden to setting up Year One in it's entirety and even if they wanted the pieces there, it could be after he's had to rebuild some thanks to Fish, Penguin and so on tearing him apart for a while.


If Falcone has to rebuild, then he didn't lose, he's just dealing with a setback.

----------


## Tupiaz

> It's Gordon going above and beyond to get his man, even though Bullock never wanted to get involved. Just part of their character.


It is not the bell I'm talking about. But that they are at the police station were they are told they should be looking for the guy who stole the ATM. Why there has been no homicide there is a man who gets super strong and dies. It is a job for the drugs department to find him not the homicide since well there has been no homicide at that point.

----------


## doodledude

Pure garbage you should'nt have to cheerlead a show into being good it should just be good.It's still a lost show and does not have momentum.At least we have two other DC shows that are worth watching.

----------


## heyevaxx

Another good episode.

- Cool seeing Selina slide into frame and have Gordon spoil her pick. I like her being skilled and capable but not great and lacking judgment sometimes. This bit was probably included to remind us Selina is still around and to not have 2 episodes in a row lacking a popular character.

- Penguin is great as always. Things had been going too well for Pengy so I was glad to see Maroni (Zayas is awesome) slam his head and get Gordon to corroborate. What a fantastically complicated spaghetti of mob/police intrigue! 

- Did Nygma turn a corner or have an epiphany after seeing the woman have a viper meltdown? The stunned look on his face and double fascinating made me think this had more impact on him than his normal morbid fascination with crime scene science.

- The Fish/Liza scenes were well done, Fish has a really strong presence despite being tiny. I hope Falcone doesn't completely fall for this incredible chance meeting with a knockout who's humming his childhood lullaby.

- Yet more twists with Fish and Nikolai - is nothing what it seems in Gotham?!? (loving it)

- The viper drug was fine by me; for superhuman stuff it felt very Gotham. I like how it was written as a terrible drug and criminal but how the professor and the bio-chemist had noble goals. Gray, it's all gray.

- Love the Wayne Enterprises stuff with the corruption and Bruce relentlessly investigating it and steadfast in his belief in "right" given to him by his parents.

- I liked seeing Alfred as Bruce's protector at the lunch; as soon as he knew gas was being piped in, he whipped his jacket off and around Bruce's head and then hustled Bruce out; nice coolness under fire and smarts, pure Alfred. And the scene with Alfred coming in to help at the end was done perfectly.

- Harv is great: "What's Altruism?!"  :Smile:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> - The Fish/Liza scenes were well done, Fish has a really strong presence despite being tiny.


It's all in her facial gestures. Though petite, she exudes power. 




> - Harv is great: "What's Altruism?!"


"Jim! It's lunch time!" That scene was very funny.

----------


## colossus34

Interesting twist to the Venom concept from the comics sure its not the last time it will pop up.

Still found the Fish Mooney scenes cringe worthy and I think the show would do much better with her character cut out. I also don't understand the idea that she needs to "train" a beautiful girl who looks like she has the face of Victoria's secret model how to seduce/charm men. I mean she wasn't exactly some homely plain jane who needed to be turned into a vixen. I think that entire subplot is just so predictable and obvious. We can see the betrayal a mile away. Liza will "fall in love" with Falcone and betray Mooney. I just dont see any intrigue with this but as a way to shoe horn her into the main plot.

Also found it odd that Penguins arc as been regressed heavily since the last few episodes. He goes from cowering, nervous, inept henchman of Mooney to competent, ruthless, vicious serial killer and now he's cowering as the mob bosses goons again? Where did his balls go? It seemed like he regressed and for unexplained reasons...

----------


## Kid A

> Also found it odd that Penguins arc as been regressed heavily since the last few episodes. He goes from cowering, nervous, inept henchman of Mooney to competent, ruthless, vicious serial killer and now he's cowering as the mob bosses goons again? Where did his balls go? It seemed like he regressed and for unexplained reasons...


Yeah all the scenes with Mooney and that girl were just awful.  




> Also found it odd that Penguins arc as been regressed heavily since the last few episodes. He goes from cowering, nervous, inept henchman of Mooney to competent, ruthless, vicious serial killer and now he's cowering as the mob bosses goons again? Where did his balls go? It seemed like he regressed and for unexplained reasons...


Well remember he got Maroni's trust by getting people to shoot/rob the place and pin it on Falcone. Suffice to say he has bigger plans than being Maroni's henchman.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Interesting twist to the Venom concept from the comics sure its not the last time it will pop up.
> 
> Still found the Fish Mooney scenes cringe worthy and I think the show would do much better with her character cut out. I also don't understand the idea that she needs to "train" a beautiful girl who looks like she has the face of Victoria's secret model how to seduce/charm men. I mean she wasn't exactly some homely plain jane who needed to be turned into a vixen. I think that entire subplot is just so predictable and obvious. We can see the betrayal a mile away. Liza will "fall in love" with Falcone and betray Mooney. I just dont see any intrigue with this but as a way to shoe horn her into the main plot.


Mooney's time would probably be better spent teaching her how to not walk like a drunk hooker.

----------


## ABH

> Also found it odd that Penguins arc as been regressed heavily since the last few episodes. He goes from cowering, nervous, inept henchman of Mooney to competent, ruthless, vicious serial killer and now he's cowering as the mob bosses goons again? *Where did his balls go? It seemed like he regressed and for unexplained reasons...*


He probably left his balls under the table, after Maroni smashed his face into it.

----------


## Vic Vega

> Also found it odd that Penguins arc as been regressed heavily since the last few episodes. He goes from cowering, nervous, inept henchman of Mooney to competent, ruthless, vicious serial killer and now he's cowering as the mob bosses goons again? Where did his balls go? It seemed like he regressed and for unexplained reasons...


Penguin's expertise is in ambush rage stabbings, blindsidings and poisoning trusting henchmen.

Cobblepot's no good against anybody who can see it coming.

Maroni would have beat him to death. 

*Fish Mooney* nearly beat him to death.

Penguin was crapping his pants because he was in a roomful of thugs looking for an excuse to 
murder him outright and that he had no answer for.

Trying a slick move would only have gotten him capped in the best case scenario.

The worst case scenario would have been the Cobblepot forcibly getting up close and personal with the meat slicer.

----------


## General Nerditry

Man, this show is getting good!  I thought the first episode was a little cheesy, but that's to be expected with pilots.  They are doing a good job setting up the bleakness and corruption of Gotham and balancing what the characters really well despite my initial concerns there were too many.

----------


## Randumbz

Is Scarecrow going to be in the next episode?

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Is Scarecrow going to be in the next episode?


Looks like some kind of proto Scarecrow.

----------


## Powerboy

Just caught up, watching the first four episodes in the last few days.  I really like it.  The funny thing is that, in a newspaper article I read, they went on about how it would be more fun and lighthearted than the recent movies.  I'm still waiting for that lightheartedness.  In fact, I'm kind of tempted to go out and buy a Batman '66 collection just to off-set it.  But I still really like it.

Obviously, they are going with the psychotic version of the Penguin but it seems to be working amazingly well.  

I liked "Smallville" in some ways but one thing I always found detracted from it was having a full grown 24 year old man playing a character who was supposed to be 14 years old at the start.  With the rest of the teenage cast likewise being played by adults, this often led to situations where a bunch of kids were doing things they wouldn't really be doing until sometime in college.  So I really like that Bruce Wayne as a boy is played by a boy.  I keep forgetting to look up how old the actor is.  But clearly not 24.  For the episodes I've seen so far, this forces him to be a minor character with a few scenes per episode but also allows for a slow and detailed process of becoming Batman.  

I've really not been this hyped about Batman for a long time.

----------


## ThiefHookUps

Is Venom green in the comics? I always thought it was black (though Viper is a prototype so the color could be different). I ask because the green gas reminded me of Joker gas and I was wondering if this was done on purpose.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Is Venom green in the comics? I always thought it was black (though Viper is a prototype so the color could be different). I ask because the green gas reminded me of Joker gas and I was wondering if this was done on purpose.


It was green in Batman and Robin. Also the pills Batman took in Dennis O'Neil's story Venom was green and yellow (the first issue has the venom pills as green and white).




> Interesting twist to the Venom concept from the comics sure its not the last time it will pop up.
> 
> Still found the Fish Mooney scenes cringe worthy and I think the show would do much better with her character cut out. I also don't understand the idea that she needs to "train" a beautiful girl who looks like she has the face of Victoria's secret model how to seduce/charm men. I mean she wasn't exactly some homely plain jane who needed to be turned into a vixen. I think that entire subplot is just so predictable and obvious. We can see the betrayal a mile away. Liza will "fall in love" with Falcone and betray Mooney. I just dont see any intrigue with this but as a way to shoe horn her into the main plot.
> 
> Also found it odd that Penguins arc as been regressed heavily since the last few episodes. He goes from cowering, nervous, inept henchman of Mooney to competent, ruthless, vicious serial killer and now he's cowering as the mob bosses goons again? Where did his balls go? It seemed like he regressed and for unexplained reasons...


Because Fish knew that Falcone would need someone with more style and less of a vixen.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Because Fish knew that Falcone would need someone with more style and less of a vixen.


Right. She has to be someone Falcone would be attracted to in a meaningful way. While she was very pretty before her transformation, there's no way Falcone would have taken her seriously.

----------


## ThiefHookUps

Thanks Tupiaz!

----------


## Tupiaz

> Thanks Tupiaz!


You are welcome. 




> Right. She has to be someone Falcone would be attracted to in a meaningful way. While she was very pretty before her transformation, there's no way Falcone would have taken her seriously.


Exactly. I thought it it was done quite well with the music and her being dressed in white and looking very pure and different from her first look and contrasted it quite well. It was maybe a bit over the top and corny with them sitting together and listening to the music together but in general it was fine.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> If Falcone has to rebuild, then he didn't lose, he's just dealing with a setback.


Again, I just said that as one possibility. They don't have to match Year One.




> Pure garbage you should'nt have to cheerlead a show into being good it should just be good.It's still a lost show and does not have momentum.At least we have two other DC shows that are worth watching.


I hate to break it to you babe but the show's ah huge hit for FOX:
_One blazing bright spot on the network's schedule is "Gotham," the Batman prequel centered on Detective Jim Gordon. Consistently ranked in the top 25, the show is Fox's highest-rated fall drama debut in 14 years._
http://www.bizjournals.com/losangele...ash-other.html




> I really didn't like any of the Viper stuff, it just all looked really bad.
> 
> Everything else was great, though. Especially, Alfred beginning to help Bruce in his detective work and everything with Maroni and Penguin/Cobblepot.


I didn't love the CGI for the Viper gas, it was minor nitpick from me. I agree the stuff with Bruce/Alfred was cool. Bruce showing initiative but not being too bat-god.




> Just caught up, watching the first four episodes in the last few days.  I really like it.  The funny thing is that, in a newspaper article I read, they went on about how it would be more fun and lighthearted than the recent movies.  I'm still waiting for that lightheartedness.  In fact, I'm kind of tempted to go out and buy a Batman '66 collection just to off-set it.  But I still really like it.


LOL, well even here we seem to debate what "lighter" and "camp" mean with some arguing it's too campy or restricted by being network and others it's too dark.  :Stick Out Tongue:  It's more stylized than the Nolan movies but I like all the bats so it's good by me too.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Nice to see they toned down the in your face easter eggs.

----------


## GlennSimpson

So I guess Alfred is home-schooling Bruce?

----------


## byrd156

> So I guess Alfred is home-schooling Bruce?


Maybe he goes to school off screen.

----------


## Nite-Wing

this show is so cheesy 
I mean everything with gordon and bullock is like straight up camp police detectives and then when they want to go back to the mob and maroni war it gets serious again...
If the show maintaned the mob war tone it would be a great show but all this jokey corrupt bullock stuff is hampering Gordon's development as a character. Donal Logue gets to chew scenes and show is acting chops more than he should, I mean he's not fish mooney(a character who is doing it properly and not coming off as one note).
lil bruce still isn't training but I guess everyone treating him like he's an adult besides alfred is good enough

----------


## GlennSimpson

> this show is so cheesy 
> I mean everything with gordon and bullock is like straight up camp police detectives and then when they want to go back to the mob and maroni war it gets serious again...
> If the show maintaned the mob war tone it would be a great show but all this jokey corrupt bullock stuff is hampering Gordon's development as a character. Donal Logue gets to chew scenes and show is acting chops more than he should, I mean he's not fish mooney(a character who is doing it properly and not coming off as one note).
> lil bruce still isn't training but I guess everyone treating him like he's an adult besides alfred is good enough


Arguably, the kind of research Bruce is doing now is the same kind he will be doing in the future, so he is "training".  Just not his body yet.

----------


## Francisco

This show is kicking Smallville's ass all over the place. Pretty good show and verry well casted.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Arguably, the kind of research Bruce is doing now is the same kind he will be doing in the future, so he is "training".  Just not his body yet.


Yeah he's training his mind right now, learning how Gotham works. I think people may forget Batman is a great detective too.  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah he's training his mind right now, learning how Gotham works. I think people may forget Batman is a great detective too.


That's the one thing the Adam West show did better than the movies did. They might have played the show for laughs, but you couldn't mistake Batman for anything else but a stellar detective.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Leslie Thompson has been cast.

Yeah.

----------


## Randumbz

> this show is so cheesy 
> I mean everything with gordon and bullock is like straight up camp police detectives and then when they want to go back to the mob and maroni war it gets serious again...
> If the show maintaned the mob war tone it would be a great show but all this jokey corrupt bullock stuff is hampering Gordon's development as a character. Donal Logue gets to chew scenes and show is acting chops more than he should, I mean he's not fish mooney(a character who is doing it properly and not coming off as one note).
> lil bruce still isn't training but I guess everyone treating him like he's an adult besides alfred is good enough


Are you joking? Nobody on the show is more one note than Fish Mooney.

----------


## colossus34

> It was green in batman and Robin. Also the pills Batman took in Dennis O'Neil's story Venom was Green and Yellow (first issue has it as green and white).
> 
> 
> 
> Because Fish knew that Falcone would need someone with more style and less of a vixen.


That doesn't answer my question or issue. Lisa looks like a Victoria's secret model but somehow doesn't know how to charm or flirt with a man? I don't buy that whole subplot one bit.

----------


## Tupiaz

> That doesn't answer my question or issue. Lisa looks like a Victoria's secret model but somehow doesn't know how to charm or flirt with a man? I don't buy that whole subplot one bit.


The main pot was that Falcone don't want a Victoria Secret model he wants a type of virgin marry who has style and elegance. Flirt and charm is not one ideal but severals different ideas combine into one term.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> That doesn't answer my question or issue. Lisa looks like a Victoria's secret model but somehow doesn't know how to charm or flirt with a man? I don't buy that whole subplot one bit.


Everyday flirting isn't going to get inside Falcone's head. She has to know what to say for him and how to say it for him, what music to like. Sexy to a young person isn't always appealing to an older person. This is more espionage than just getting his attention. 




> I mean he's not fish mooney(a character who is doing it properly and not coming off as one note





> Are you joking? Nobody on the show is more one note than Fish Mooney.


I think everyone needs to accept there are characters we like and characters we don't but that we're not all going to answer the same ones for those lists.
Our opinions are not the only opinions possible. Scrolling through the thread I can see they're all over the place on everything.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Tupiaz

> Everyday flirting isn't going to get inside Falcone's head. She has to know what to say for him and how to say it for him, what music to like. Sexy to a young person isn't always appealing to an older person. This is more espionage than just getting his attention.


Exactly she isn't flirting for a one night stand but a serious relationship.

----------


## Powerboy

> That's the one thing the Adam West show did better than the movies did. They might have played the show for laughs, but you couldn't mistake Batman for anything else but a stellar detective.


True we could make a book out of the incredible if hilarious deductions that the Adam West Batman and Burt Ward Robin made.

I see how widely opinions differ on the new show.  Not surprising.  One person sees it as cheesy if they allow the slightest bit of humor and not have all dark and morbid every single second.  Another sees endless gloom and doom with some scenes having slightly less gloom and doom than other scenes.  

Personally, I think they've established a good tone.  Sometimes, I find myself wanting slightly less gore (such as a guy getting his eyes gouged out), but at other times, I smile at how unrealistically the violence is toned down such as when Cobblepot stabs a guy multiple times while rolling on the floor with him and then walks out the door without a trace of blood on him.  

The characters, by and large, are great blends of realism and total unreality, perhaps an illusion of reality being the best way to describe them.

----------


## ispacehead

> I smile at how unrealistically the violence is toned down such as when Cobblepot stabs a guy multiple times while rolling on the floor with him and then walks out the door without a trace of blood on him.


LOL!

I agree with you though, that the balance of humor and darkness has established a good tone for the show.

----------


## Dr Will Hatch

The violence doesn't really bother me. If anything, I think Gotham should be MORE violent just to emphasize just how screwed up the place is, but that's besides the point. This show is a wasted opportunity to me. Bad writing, unnecessary cameos, the fact that Gordon lives in a penthouse...

I thought that the show would be a straight crime drama, like The Untouchables meets The Sopranos, with Gordon being an a superb cop and detective,  but being foiled at every turn due to Gotham's inherent corruptness.

----------


## PretenderNX01

Just because it's different than what you person thought it would be doesn't make it a "wasted opportunity". And aren't we over Gordon's penthouse yet? It's not even his, it's Barbara's that's why Renee still had a key to it.

JOHNS OPENS UP ON DC TV EASTER EGGS, MULTIVERSE CROSSOVERS & MORE
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56544

*"Gotham" is designed to be more Westeros than "Law & Order." 
*According to Johns, showrunner Bruno Heller approaches the pre-Batman series more as a "Game of Thrones" show, with various factions vying for control and power, than a police procedural.

*Fish Mooney may follow Diggle's lead and make the move to comics.* 
Apparently, a number of DC Comics creative types are interested in introducing Jada Pinkett Smith's "Gotham" crime boss to Batman's four-color world.

Edit: The Buzzfeed article linked has some more:
_there’s a bunch of stuff coming up with Alfred that Sean is just itching to do because he’s a pretty physical guy, and it’s exciting because you’ll see a different side to Alfred than you’ve seen before. The exploration of these characters is what makes the show worthwhile. I think Oswald has already captured people’s imaginations._

----------


## doodledude

> Just because it's different than what you person thought it would be doesn't make it a "wasted opportunity". And aren't we over Gordon's penthouse yet? It's not even his, it's Barbara's that's why Renee still had a key to it.
> 
> JOHNS OPENS UP ON DC TV EASTER EGGS, MULTIVERSE CROSSOVERS & MORE
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56544
> 
> *"Gotham" is designed to be more Westeros than "Law & Order." 
> *According to Johns, showrunner Bruno Heller approaches the pre-Batman series more as a "Game of Thrones" show, with various factions vying for control and power, than a police procedural.
> 
> *Fish Mooney may follow Diggle's lead and make the move to comics.* 
> ...


This show is nowhere near even in the realm of Game of Thrones.If the writing was visual art the writing on Game of Thrones would be Van Gough the writing on Gotham would be a child drawing stick figures.That's how far apart they are.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Comparing it to game of thrones because there are multiple factions vying for power?
To me it seems like the guy with all the power Falcone/corrupt gcpd vs fish mooney vs penguin/maroni with jim gordon filling out the jon snow role
Not exactly the war of five kings going on here

----------


## DurararaFTW

> This show is nowhere near even in the realm of Game of Thrones.If the writing was visual art the writing on Game of Thrones would be Van Gough the writing on Gotham would be a child drawing stick figures.That's how far apart they are.





> Comparing it to game of thrones because there are multiple factions vying for power?
> To me it seems like the guy with all the power Falcone/corrupt gcpd vs fish mooney vs penguin/maroni with jim gordon filling out the jon snow role
> Not exactly the war of five kings going on here


I imagine he's addressing all critics that thought this would be a strict police procedural and feel surprised and betrayed to see characters like Bruce and Selina not be oneshots.

----------


## ispacehead

> I imagine he's addressing all critics that thought this would be a strict police procedural and feel surprised and betrayed to see characters like Bruce and Selina not be oneshots.


Yeah, I kinda took it to be a tonal comparison rather than a direct one.

One glaring difference between Game of Thrones and Gotham that I can see... No floppy wieners.





 :Wink:

----------


## Kid A

> This show is nowhere near even in the realm of Game of Thrones.If the writing was visual art the writing on Game of Thrones would be Van Gough the writing on Gotham would be a child drawing stick figures.That's how far apart they are.


Game of Thrones is shit once you strip away the fantasy nerd hype and HBO hype structure.

----------


## Vil_Dee

> This show is nowhere near even in the realm of Game of Thrones.If the writing was visual art the writing on Game of Thrones would be Van Gough the writing on Gotham would be a child drawing stick figures.That's how far apart they are.


So what you're saying is Gotham isn't 70% Porno and 30% storyline? 

Hmmmm, maybe next time Montoya and Allen interview Mrs. Cobblepot she should be in the middle of a pole dancing class.

----------


## doodledude

> Game of Thrones is shit once you strip away the fantasy nerd hype and HBO hype structure.


If it is shit  why the hell is it so popular across generations ethnic groups and people who really don't give a damn about the fantasy genre.That's some good shit right there and it says something about humanity. :Big Grin:  Last time I checked sex was part of life in fact without it there is no life.Do you not like sex? I enjoy it very much but to each his own.

----------


## beetle_booster

> This show is nowhere near even in the realm of Game of Thrones.If the writing was visual art the writing on Game of Thrones would be Van Gough the writing on Gotham would be a child drawing stick figures.That's how far apart they are.


I would say, if GOT is Van Gough, Gotham is Jim Lee.  Both are good in different aspects.

----------


## Kid A

> If it is shit  why the hell is it so popular across generations ethnic groups and people who really don't give a damn about the fantasy genre.That's some good shit right there and it says something about humanity. Last time I checked sex was part of life in fact without it there is no life.Do you not like sex? I enjoy it very much but to each his own.


It's popular for the same reason other terrible soap operas are popular. 

And I didn't say a thing about sex.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I am glad Nygma showed up a little this episode. Hopefully they can incorporate him more mirroring his persona in the Animated series and the Arkham games.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Leslie Thompson has been cast.
> 
> Yeah.


They couldn't pick a better one, after that news i'm in  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## DurararaFTW

> They couldn't pick a better one, after that news i'm in


I have a feeling Leslie will be Gordon's much, much more popular love interest. Whilst Barbara still has marry Gordon and give birth to Barbara.

----------


## ChucksComics

I'm enjoying it so far. Just watched episode 3 on Hulu last night....

----------


## Tupiaz

Clips from next episode:

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Clips from next episode:


*spoilers:*
Well, obviously the kidnapper IS gonna come for Bruce which should be loads of fun but really Bruce is rght. I don't think Alfred would be able to withdraw millions to pay the ransom, and the shadowy and enigmatic shareholders of Wayne Enterprises ain't gonna care.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## The Batlord

I don't love the show, but I'm still sort of entertained. The problem is that it's waiting for the mob war to really become interesting. Until then we're left with a second rate police procedural, and I've been tired of those for years. If the episodic villains, like the balloon guy or the couple who were kidnapping kids, were more interesting then it would be a different story, but they're trying to make them comic bookish, and unfortunately they've been pretty uninspired so far, so even the comic book element is falling short. I see potential, but I'm still dubious. I'm a pathetic Batman fanboy though, so I'll continue to watch regardless.

Props to Alfred though. I like that they've made him a bit more reserved in a slightly working class dad kind of way. It makes sense for the character since he's trying to be a father figure to Bruce, but doesn't quite know how to connect with him

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Clips from next episode:


Thanks Tupiaz

----------


## Tupiaz

> Thanks Tupiaz


You are welcome.




> *spoilers:*
> Well, obviously the kidnapper IS gonna come for Bruce which should be loads of fun but really Bruce is rght. I don't think Alfred would be able to withdraw millions to pay the ransom, and the shadowy and enigmatic shareholders of Wayne Enterprises ain't gonna care.
> *end of spoilers*


That could be a huge backfire at the company if they didn't.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Game of Thrones is shit once you strip away the fantasy nerd hype and HBO hype structure.


Game of Thones is shit once you strip away the fantasy nerd hype, HBO hype structure, the plot, the production values, the cast, the directing and the writing and you put shit instead.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Game of Thones is shit once you strip away the fantasy nerd hype, HBO hype structure, the plot, the production values, the cast, the directing and the writing and you put shit instead.


The source material and their budget is amazing. The original content can be pretty hit and miss. More hits then misses but they've made plenty dumb mistakes.

----------


## doodledude

> I would say, if GOT is Van Gough, Gotham is Jim Lee.  Both are good in different aspects.


No Jim Lee would be Arrow action and great looking cast members.Gotham would still be stick figures by a child.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> No Jim Lee would be Arrow action and great looking cast members.Gotham would still be stick figures by a child.


Heh. Too bad for you the show will be on for quite a few years.  :Wink:

----------


## Kid A

> Game of Thones is shit once you strip away the fantasy nerd hype, HBO hype structure, the plot, the production values, the cast, the directing and the writing and you put shit instead.


No the show is pretty terrible even if you keep its sorry excuse of a plot.

----------


## Aioros22

> Grant  Morrison and Frank Miller's work probally inform my view of Batman Mike W Barr's Batman from the eighties along with the Outsiders I really love.I really like Snyder's take also I really feel like he get's Batman.Dennis O'neil old stuff from the seventies.It just all swirls together informing how I see Batman.


I almost forgot this thread, my apologies. 

The writers you mention did not write child Bruce starting to train his body after his parents were murdered. That came later on. What the show is doing (quality of the show opinion aside, I am only adressing this plot hook) is on point with most origin retellings: Bruce as a child accepting his grief and slowly honing the direction of his life. That means, first - as usual, honing his mind. 

He`s not going to go full ninja training until he "sees" the path he is willing to take. It`s the same thing with anyone else. You can`t just start training on anything seriously, without making up your mind about it and set a plan of training.

----------


## PretenderNX01

Not a lot of information but some words with the wardrobe designer, Lisa Padovani.
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/20/go...9491f0d0bea072

----------


## EdwardNigma

Anyone catch Nygma's question mark coffee mug? I want that!

----------


## doodledude

> Heh. Too bad for you the show will be on for quite a few years.


The torrents do not seem to be very popular.Walking dead and Arrow and Doctor Who have like 20 thousand seeders the nights they premiere a new episode.Gotham does'nt have the same level af seeders as Agents of Shield on premiere nights.Gotham only get's around 4 0r 5 thousand seeders on premiere nights.It's not that popular a show.It could only go one season friend.

----------


## doodledude

> I almost forgot this thread, my apologies. 
> 
> The writers you mention did not write child Bruce starting to train his body after his parents were murdered. That came later on. What the show is doing (quality of the show opinion aside, I am only adressing this plot hook) is on point with most origin retellings: Bruce as a child accepting his grief and slowly honing the direction of his life. That means, first - as usual, honing his mind. 
> 
> He`s not going to go full ninja training until he "sees" the path he is willing to take. It`s the same thing with anyone else. You can`t just start training on anything seriously, without making up your mind about it and set a plan of training.


There has not been that much written about Bruce's childhood by any Batman writer.One thing is true by most though that Bruce has a genius level intellect.You do not develop that you are born with it.To become a master martial artist takes a lifetime.A master not a good martial artist a master.I don't think you get that.How long did Bruce Lee train himself to become a master?His whole life from childhood.By 12 or 13 Bruce should be training to get to that level.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The torrents do not seem to be very popular.Walking dead and Arrow and Doctor Who have like 20 thousand seeders the nights they premiere a new episode.Gotham does'nt have the same level af seeders as Agents of Shield on premiere nights.Gotham only get's around 4 0r 5 thousand seeders on premiere nights.It's not that popular a show.It could only go one season friend.


What are you talking about? _Gotham_ is one of the top 25 programs at the moment. If it stays that way for the remainder of the season, that will be better than _Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D._ and much, much better than _Arrow_.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> There has not been that much written about Bruce's childhood by any Batman writer.One thing is true by most though that Bruce has a genius level intellect.You do not develop that you are born with it.To become a master martial artist takes a lifetime.A master not a good martial artist a master.I don't think you get that.How long did Bruce Lee train himself to become a master?His whole life from childhood.By 12 or 13 Bruce should be training to get to that level.


We'll see him improve his self-defense in this season at some point I'm sure. Selina will start helping him in arts of urban gymnastics and not fighting fair at some point as well. Having Bruce take up karate by the 5th episode really wouldn't help make his development organic tho.

----------


## JohnQZ

This video is pretty interesting if you're a fan of the show. I didn't know much outside of the show.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> The torrents do not seem to be very popular.Walking dead and Arrow and Doctor Who have like 20 thousand seeders the nights they premiere a new episode.Gotham does'nt have the same level af seeders as Agents of Shield on premiere nights.Gotham only get's around 4 0r 5 thousand seeders on premiere nights.It's not that popular a show.It could only go one season friend.


I've never heard of online piracy as a gauge of popularity.  Interesting concept.

Since someone has to download (presumably to view) in order to become a seeder, isn't it also possible that these shows are SO popular that everyone is watching them live rather than needing to download them?

----------


## doodledude

> I've never heard of online piracy as a gauge of popularity.  Interesting concept.
> 
> Since someone has to download (presumably to view) in order to become a seeder, isn't it also possible that these shows are SO popular that everyone is watching them live rather than needing to download them?


That would be totally backwards.We know for a fact that The Walking dead is probaly the most popular show on tv.Torrent downloads are highest with the most popular shows.In my everyday life nobody talks about Gotham.Walking Dead Arrow and Doctor Who are always the big Watercooler talk shows.I can't possibly imagine Gotham getting better ratings than Arrow.The Flash gets more props than  Gotham already from people I know.Neilsen ratings are bullshit and have gotten alot of watched shows canceled.

----------


## The Batlord

> The torrents do not seem to be very popular.Walking dead and Arrow and Doctor Who have like 20 thousand seeders the nights they premiere a new episode.Gotham does'nt have the same level af seeders as Agents of Shield on premiere nights.Gotham only get's around 4 0r 5 thousand seeders on premiere nights.It's not that popular a show.It could only go one season friend.


It's a new show, give it a break. I'm also dubious about how long it will last, but judging that by how many people steal it after it's only been around for like four or five episodes doesn't make any sense.

----------


## Randumbz

> What are you talking about? _Gotham_ is one of the top 25 programs at the moment. If it stays that way for the remainder of the season, that will be better than _Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D._ and much, much better than _Arrow_.


Just gonna leave this here: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.1970832

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Just gonna leave this here: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.1970832


I know about that. It's still the best way to gauge the popularity of a program. It sure isn't tracking online piracy figures, at any rate.

----------


## heyevaxx

Regarding p2p and illegal downloading, all that can be said with certainty is that it is an accurate gauge of ... illegal downloading.

Also based on the CBR Community Standards & Rules, maybe it would be best to drop the p2p and illegal downloading thread.

Gotham has lots of angles to discuss without pushing the forum rule limits.

----------


## heyevaxx

Regarding ratings, Nielsen said "some of the viewing numbers were credited to the wrong source" from March 2 to about early October. "The beneficiary of the glitch turned out to be ABC" and not Fox. So there's no indication that show distributors and advertisers will suddenly not use Nielsen to negotiate advertising rates.

Gotham isn't directly competing with other top shows on cable. Gotham competes mostly with other *Fox* offerings and it is getting the best scripted Fox ratings for a new show in years. Put another way, what does Fox have to replace Gotham with that's more profitable? Should Fox just air nothing or repeats of 24 if Gotham isn't rated as highly as the 2 or 3 most successful shows on TV?

Who knows: maybe we'll just get one more season (I'm 99% convinced it'll get renewed) and it'll be two and out. But Gotham is definitely not a train wreck, horrible, a disaster, etc. And in the meantime, I'm enjoying the heck out the show and am thrilled at what we've got so far.

----------


## godisawesome

It's also drawing similarly strong numbers in the teens to thirties demographic as Flash and Arrow have done, and added to decent ratings compared to other network shows, it has done very well.

----------


## heyevaxx

Why are the character ages all wrong? Why isn't Bruce doing martial arts training right away? Why is the show campy or too funny? Why is the show so dark and violent?

From day one when I started getting interested in Gotham, I told myself that the comics are simply a template on which the characters and stories for Gotham will be based on.

Even within the comics and within the same "Earth" (Prime, New, -1, etc) version there are changes, soft reboots and hard reboots. Writers, editors and artists come and go so this isn't like a book with one author being put on TV.

I've watched Gotham only looking for pluses and found plenty: a great young Selina; a gritty, determined Gordon; a wily, scheming Oswald; and a first on screen Bullock that's jaded, harsh, corrupt and a great odd couple paring with Jim. Plus, a spaghetti of plots/sub-plots that are interestingly intertwined.

Even the characters that are most often slammed don't bug me that much. There's only been 5 episodes and there's a lot more that could happen with Barbara, Renee, Crispus, Ivy, etc.

And the casting hits keep coming with Morena Baccarin who's got a great resume and could be an interesting love interest for Gordon or maybe Alfred. I'm not going to get upset over her age (she's too young!) or her great beauty (she's too pretty!).

This is TV show based on comic books. The 43 minute presentations are completely different than 24 page (and then 23, 22, 21, 20, ...) comic book presentations.

Would it make for good TV to have 5'0" 86lb young Bruce doing exercises and martial arts training? 

Or, should young Bruce be building his relationship with Alfred, working through his parent's death, concerned with their good goals for Gotham and wanting to stop Gotham criminals and corrupt politicians/police?

I don't see Gotham as a TV show documentary of the comic book period between Bruce's parents death and Batman Year One.

It's a TV show that uses comics as its template. It won't satisfy strict comic fundamentalists but it will hit many notes that ring true to the comics and, most importantly, create a great, unique TV experience.

For people how really don't like Gotham, maybe there's other TV they'll get into. Personally, I hope the show goes for years, maintains its high quality and interesting story archs. I'm enjoying Gotham a lot now and hope many other like it too.

----------


## heyevaxx

@PretenderNX01
Thanks for costume link; it's really interesting to see the thought that goes into each wardrobe decision. Not only has the casting been a home run for Gotham but I keep learning about how good the behind the scenes crew is. Amazing.

@JohnQZ
Great first post re: 10 Things You Didn't Know About Gotham. I only knew 1.5 out of 10 and I thought I knew a lot about Gotham, thanks!

For anyone interested in seeing Camren Bicondova's dance moves which propelled her into the role of young Selina, here's her latest, short dance video. It's with a best friend, KK, who was also a member of their dance group 8 Flavahz. KK has been the featured dancer for Usher recently. Camren said she's gong to post more dancing vids ... there's been a drought because of her Gotham filming.
*Camren Bicondova and Kaelynn Harris in NYC 10/23/14*

----------


## EdwardNigma

Gotham's ratings have been pretty good. I think we are set for several seasons at least.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Gotham's ratings have been pretty good. I think we are set for several seasons at least.


Think how the ratings will be now that they are not up against _The Big Bang Theory_, too.

----------


## Superman_The Man Of Steel

I love the way Bruce is portrayed in this series. It makes me not want to see him become Bruce Wayne, the arrogant playboy and Batdick. He's extremely likable and caring and warm. The Bruce/Batman who's cold and seemingly uncaring and essentially being Batdick to his friends and family is very unappealing. Hopefully this will show us a better Batman.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> That would be totally backwards.We know for a fact that The Walking dead is probaly the most popular show on tv.Torrent downloads are highest with the most popular shows.In my everyday life nobody talks about Gotham.Walking Dead Arrow and Doctor Who are always the big Watercooler talk shows.I can't possibly imagine Gotham getting better ratings than Arrow.The Flash gets more props than  Gotham already from people I know.Neilsen ratings are bullshit and have gotten alot of watched shows canceled.


Yeah, but how many people get the AMC channel vs getting Fox? Fox is generally built into most basic packages while for AMC you have have to get a second tier.  Ergo more people HAVE to download Walking Dead in order to see it, potentially.

As far as your personal life, I will counter that pretty much nobody I encounter in day-to-day life has ever heard of Doctor Who, much less watching it.  And since BBC America is an upper-tier channel, lots of people would have to download it to see it.  I do know people who are familiar with Arrow - again, it being on a basic channel.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Just gonna leave this here: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.1970832


Yeah, those 7 months were 7 months ago and it's fixed. They say on the whole it wasn't too big a mistake either other than helping ABC which doesn't matter since this isn't on ABC. You can doubt them but they came forward with the info, it wasn't from others exposing them, 

Fox's most watched shows are The OT (football, sports show) The Simpsons, Family Guy, Brooklyn Nine Nine and Gotham. Every media outlet is referring to Gotham as their only new show that's a hit. It's real.  :Cool: 




> I've never heard of online piracy as a gauge of popularity.  Interesting concept.
> 
> Since someone has to download (presumably to view) in order to become a seeder, isn't it also possible that these shows are SO popular that everyone is watching them live rather than needing to download them?


Well, Kick Ass 2 was one of the more popular downloads and no one really went to see it in theaters which is what Chloe Grace Mortez blames on there being no KA3. Mind you, it wasn't in the Top 10 pirated films of 2013 the way Gangster Squad was.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Still, "Fox’s ‘Gotham’ Tops Piracy of Fall TV Premieres with 1.3 Million Downloads"
http://variety.com/2014/digital/news...ds-1201317365/




> I can't possibly imagine Gotham getting better ratings than Arrow.


Not trying to be mean but are you on the autism spectrum? Your inability to see that other people might feel differently than you just makes me wonder. I'll be nice if you are otherwise I'm tempted just to post memes.

----------


## Captain Smith

As a crime  show, it's not bad. As a DC show - the later Bats Universe is just hints. If you never knew about Bats, the show is quite watchable as the Jim Gordon as a crime fighter show. Supporting character some kid who should be seeing a shrink.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> @PretenderNX01
> For anyone interested in seeing Camren Bicondova's dance moves which propelled her into the role of young Selina, here's her latest, short dance video. It's with a best friend, KK, who was also a member of their dance group 8 Flavahz. KK has been the featured dancer for Usher recently. Camren said she's gong to post more dancing vids ... there's been a drought because of her Gotham filming.
> *Camren Bicondova and Kaelynn Harris in NYC 10/23/14*


This kid really has a ton of screen presence. Maximum impact in whatever little screentime they give her. They need to leverage her more.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

This season is obviously about the rise of Penguin, do you guys think each consequent season will see the rise of another villain? Hopefully after each season they do a timeskip.

----------


## Randumbz

> This season is obviously about the rise of Penguin, do you guys think each consequent season will see the rise of another villain? Hopefully after each season they do a timeskip.


But if they time skip every season then they would have to replace the actors for Bruce and Selina.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> But if they time skip every season then they would have to replace the actors for Bruce and Selina.


I don't mind them recasting Bruce he doesn't really become important to the story until he goes off and train anyway (or take over Wayne Enterprises.), but I totally forgot about Selina that does poise a problem.

----------


## Superman_The Man Of Steel

> This season is obviously about the rise of Penguin, do you guys think each consequent season will see the rise of another villain? Hopefully after each season they do a timeskip.


Why would you want that? I wouldn't want that at all. I would definitely mind them recasting Bruce and Selena as both are brilliantly cast. I like their roles as they are now. It's refreshing.

----------


## GlennSimpson

I do like the show, but I also admit I'm not sure what the plan is to fill the next few years, due to the age issue.  We can see some guy named Matt Hagen commit some crimes and get a big "wink" when he falls into a pit of clay or something, but at least half of the villains need to be Bruce's age, and there's only so much trouble they can get into...

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I don't mind them recasting Bruce he doesn't really become important to the story until he goes off and train anyway (or take over Wayne Enterprises.), but I totally forgot about Selina that does poise a problem.


Bruce is a main cast member, part of all thw marketing for the show. Kid Bruce is part of this show's pitch. Doing a timeskip, casting adult Bruce back from Batman training ready to start his crusade by the second season is an open admission of complete failure of the shows premise if you ask me.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I am not saying cast adult Bruce immediately, by time skip I mean a year or so after each season has finished, I just feel the villains are too old ie. Falcone. 
I am very curious too see how they handle this.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Think how the ratings will be now that they are not up against _The Big Bang Theory_, too.


Are there plans or just hopes about Gotham or Big Bang Theory moving to another day/time?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Are there plans or just hopes about Gotham or Big Bang Theory moving to another day/time?


_
The Big Bang Theory_ is moving back to Thursdays this week.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I am not saying cast adult Bruce immediately, by time skip I mean a year or so after each season has finished, I just feel the villains are too old ie. Falcone. 
> I am very curious too see how they handle this.


Then what did you mean by recasting Bruce? I really don't see why we need a seperate actor for 14-15ish Bruce. And if he is on training abroad then he shouldn't on the show at all. Otherwise he's gonna inevitably be keeping contact with Gordon during his intense martial arts training at which point yeah, gordon should really, really know Bruce is Batman

----------


## heyevaxx

> _
> The Big Bang Theory_ is moving back to Thursdays this week.


Thanks, that's great news. Here's hoping that 2 Broke Girls and The Millers do so-so and/or don't overlap with Gotham's audience.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Thanks, that's great news. Here's hoping that 2 Broke Girls and The Millers do so-so and/or don't overlap with Gotham's audience.


The ratings of both of those shows last season were around _Gotham_'s so far this season, but that's still better than facing _The Big Bang Theory_.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 6 "Spirit of the Goat" was decent.  Nice to see Dan Hedaya show up as Detective Dix.  I find this version of Edward Nigma to be slightly annoying.  The Penguin scenes were pretty weak and uneventful.  The ending was great though.

----------


## tabo61

I enjoyed the conversation between Cobblepot and his mom from tonight's episode.  By the way, Spirit of the Goat= Court of Owls?????

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> I enjoyed the conversation between Cobblepot and his mom from tonight's episode.  By the way, Spirit of the Goat= Court of Owls?????


I hope not, I kinda hate them.

I didn't think this episode was as fine as the 2 previous ones, but it was definitively still better than the first two. It was good character development for Bullock and Nigma. The Spirit of the Goat has a good Alan Grant vibe going on.  I think it was a good idea to give Fish a little rest. The final scene was a bit over the top and the rich guy attacking Bullock was kinda awkward.




> Episode 6 "Spirit of the Goat" was decent.  Nice to see Dan Hedaya show up as Detective Dix.  I find this version of Edward Nigma to be slightly annoying.  The Penguin scenes were pretty weak and uneventful.  The ending was great though.


Nigma is often annoying, but that's rather in the sense that he is an unbearable jerk when it comes to rubbing his intelligence in everybody's face. Not by being out of touch like a geeky spaz.

----------


## SXVA

What a fantastic and creepy episode.

Everything was great, only disappointment was it looks like Bullock did really think Gordon killed Penguin after all, was hoping he didn't.

----------


## PretenderNX01

I thought this was an interesting episode in that it kept me guessing. With the penny reveal I thought they might be taking on The Penny Plunderer. Only because there was a list going around of villains too wacky to work on Gotham. Had one of the Goats been Joesph Coyne, it would have worked for me. But this way was cool too. Therapists in Gotham have a lot of power and they haven't even introduced Hugo Strange yet.

Poor Bruce has no one to kidnap him from. And the Selena tease was interesting, she's apparently a little taken with him. I wonder if she recognized the killer on his wall or if she knows he hasn't found the person yet. I also wonder what she took?




> The Penguin scenes were pretty weak and uneventful.


I think genre fans need to realize not every scene that isn't huge is automatically useless. We got some character moments with him which I found interesting.




> Not by being out of touch like a geeky spaz.


This guy might disagree  :Stick Out Tongue: 


I was more into the sedate Animated Series genius Riddler but he's had his share of over the top performances. 


Edit:


> What a fantastic and creepy episode.
> 
> Everything was great, only disappointment was it looks like Bullock did really think Gordon killed Penguin after all, was hoping he didn't.


Yeah I think the creepyness worked being close to Halloween too.

The part with Bullock and Gordon ready to fight was a twist. Interesting Harvey was once a white knight type but Gotham's rule "no heroes" must have worn him down. Hopefully Gordon can redeem him.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

for being called Gotham's Most Terrifying enemy in the "Next Episode" Promo....The Goat didn't really do all that much and it was never explained why it was the spirit of the goat instead of something else....after the previous episode where The Drug "Venom" was teased at with the introduction of it's prototype version "Viper" i was expecting this villain to maybe have hints of the scarecrow due to his mask and way of talking

but nope...we didn't really get that  all we got was some therapist brainwashing her patients so they could murder rich people.....eh

i agree with Tabo61  The Conversation between Oswald and his mother was great  i really wonder if he cares about his dear old mother or if he's just manipulating her like everyone else he meets

but the biggest question on our minds.....what are they going to do now that Oswald's death is now confirmed to be a straight up lie....are they going to arrest him?  are they going to arrest gordon and bullock for even trying to kill him in the first place? what's gonna go down?

at first You'd think Oswald would lurk in the shadows longer and use that to his advantage...now that he's just stepped right into Police HQ  i see it being much harder for him to simply be trusted by anyone once word of this spreads

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> What a fantastic and creepy episode.
> 
> Everything was great, only disappointment was it looks like Bullock did really think Gordon killed Penguin after all, was hoping he didn't.


considering Bullock's still eating out of fish mooney's hand....i don't see why he would think gordon didn't kill penquin especially with how much was gonna be at risk if they didn't off him

----------


## SXVA

> considering Bullock's still eating out of fish mooney's hand....i don't see why he would think gordon didn't kill penquin especially with how much was gonna be at risk if they didn't off him


It was an ongoing theory, how he said "atta boy" to himself after Gordon fake killed Penguin almost in a way where he knew Gordon didn't do it and was relived that Gordon wasn't like everyone else who had given in and been corrupted by Gotham which then gave Bullock hope, and the idea Bullock wasn't so corrupt as to approve such an act... anyway, it seems debunked at the moment.


"Holy ghost on a bicycle" 
"Copygoat"
"You are 100% nuthouse crazy, lady"

At some point there needs to be a compilation with Bullock quotes/one liners hah.

Nygma's scene where he organized all that stuff was great as well, "laterally" with the hand gesture...
Does anyone know who played Kringle? The girl Nygma likes and who finds him frustrating. Can't find it on IMDB.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Bruce needs to hurry up and meet Nygma. It's quite clear that Bruce is the only one that is ever gonna answer any of these riddles, might as well get on with it.

----------


## heyevaxx

Kristin Kringle is played by Chelsea Spack. Oddly, her IMDB entry is messed up but I found:
* lots of theater experience
* master in theater, BA in theater/French
* lots of dance experience, former soccer player and "Certified in Stage Combat (SAFD 2012)"
http://www.chelseaspack.com/
https://twitter.com/ChelseaSpack/with_replies
http://www.rutgersactorpresentation.com/chelsea-spack

She's listed twice at IMDB:
Chelsea Spack (I) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6871938/ >> pictures only
Chelsea Spack (II) (Actress, Gotham (2014)) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6872175/ >> Gotham entry only

I liked the episode since it gave some plot lines a rest, moved some others forward and had a good killer-of-the-week who again is trying to "fight" the corruptness of Gotham in their own, illegal way.

I really liked seeing Harv in the past and finally caring about a case. And just as it seems he's drawing closer to his partner the Gordon arrest and Penguin showing up happens! Nice back and forth.

Selina sneaking around raises lots of questions and probably starts the path of her meeting/helping/combating Bruce.

The Nygma and Kringle stuff was great, they've got good, weird chemistry. It was nice to get Nygma for more than one scene and get him kicked off into a sub-plot of his own.

----------


## Red_11

Best ep. yet.  First one where I felt any real tension and had some eagerness to see what happens next.

The promo and the first couple of episodes were shaky, but the show seems to  be finding it's footing.  I hope it continues to improve.

----------


## SXVA

> Kristin Kringle is played by Chelsea Spack. Oddly, her IMDB entry is messed up but I found:
> * lots of theater experience
> * master in theater, BA in theater/French
> * lots of dance experience, former soccer player and "Certified in Stage Combat (SAFD 2012)"
> http://www.chelseaspack.com/
> https://twitter.com/ChelseaSpack/with_replies
> http://www.rutgersactorpresentation.com/chelsea-spack
> 
> She's listed twice at IMDB:
> ...


Thanks! I see that it's now added on IMDB... must have simply taken some time to update as it wasn't there when i first checked.

----------


## protege

This whole subplot with bruce is starting to rub me the wrong way; I know the kid is supposed to become Batman one day, but right now, he's just a kid who's obviously been traumatized. He gathers fact on the goat, the mob, etc, but he doesn't do anything with them. i suppose it would be too much of a stretch to have him informing gordon of his theories at this stage, but what's the point of this? What does he do with the information? We never see him doing anything normal kids do, like got to school or play outside. Doesn't he have any relatives he cold go stay with? Maybe if he had something of a normal life, He might have grown up differently. Knowing what he becomes is small comfort when I'm getting a front row seat on the steps he took to get there, and i don't like what I see. Then there's the future Riddler. I just can't see this guy being any kind of real threat to bruce in the future. I was actually starting to warm up to Bullock in this episode, but then they had to go back to the status quo at the end of the episode. And I'm really hoping we get Alfred's backstory soon- Having him kow tow to bruce's growing obsession isn't endearing the character to me.

----------


## Kid A

The gimmick behind this episode was better in True Detective.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> This whole subplot with bruce is starting to rub me the wrong way; I know the kid is supposed to become Batman one day, but right now, he's just a kid who's obviously been traumatized. He gathers fact on the goat, the mob, etc, but he doesn't do anything with them.


Well, he's got his own Wall of Weird going trying to connect the dots. And as he said, he's trying to learn how Gotham works. He's not going to be Gordon's informant at 13  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Riddler isn't usually a physical threat to Batman. It's mind games which this Nygma is starting to like.

----------


## Kid A

Oswald continues to steal this show; although the Goat killer plot was pretty interesting, the best scene was the cliffhanger.  But yeah nice to see this show really is finding its footing.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well, he's got his own Wall of Weird going trying to connect the dots. And as he said, he's trying to learn how Gotham works. He's not going to be Gordon's informant at 13


Of course not. Seriously, some posters here need a shot of patience.  :Smile:  We're used to stories of Bruce becoming Batman only a few panels after losing his parents in the comics. IMO, _Gotham_ has the right pacing in this regard so far. Personally, Bruce's evolving nature is the most singular thing about this show.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Oswald continues to steal this show; although the Goat killer plot was pretty interesting, the best scene was the cliffhanger.  But yeah nice to see this show really is finding its footing.


It's nice to see Harvey was a lot like Jim when he was younger, too, which means he will be redeemed as the show progresses.

----------


## AngelsXDemons

I'm in love with Gotham! Last night's episode was killer good. That ending had me like "Some crae stuff is about to go down next week." Plus, Catgirl sneaking into Bruce's house was so unexpectedly cool. I wish that lesbian Montoya would just die already; she's a little twerp who hates Bullock and Jim's guts.

----------


## ispacehead

This show keeps hitting it's marks for me. 

Really enjoyed this episode.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Soooo glad we're not gonna have a 'trial of Jim Gordon' story.  Thank you Oswald.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> This whole subplot with bruce is starting to rub me the wrong way; I know the kid is supposed to become Batman one day, but right now, he's just a kid who's obviously been traumatized. He gathers fact on the goat, the mob, etc, but he doesn't do anything with them. i suppose it would be too much of a stretch to have him informing gordon of his theories at this stage, but what's the point of this? What does he do with the information? We never see him doing anything normal kids do, like got to school or play outside. Doesn't he have any relatives he cold go stay with? Maybe if he had something of a normal life, He might have grown up differently. Knowing what he becomes is small comfort when I'm getting a front row seat on the steps he took to get there, and i don't like what I see. Then there's the future Riddler. I just can't see this guy being any kind of real threat to bruce in the future. I was actually starting to warm up to Bullock in this episode, but then they had to go back to the status quo at the end of the episode. And I'm really hoping we get Alfred's backstory soon- Having him kow tow to bruce's growing obsession isn't endearing the character to me.


I don't think he was gathering data on the Goat. Just the mob. And it might pay off. Maybe he'll be the one variable that Penguin hasn't accounted for thus ruining whatever master plan he's enacting. Other then that I agree. Show him going to school already. Cast Hush as his classmate if you have since you already have to have a fullgrown Two-Face.

----------


## Randumbz

This was the best episode yet. I'm pumped to see next week's episode.

----------


## Tony

> I'm in love with Gotham! Last night's episode was killer good. That ending had me like "Some crae stuff is about to go down next week." Plus, Catgirl sneaking into Bruce's house was so unexpectedly cool. I wish that lesbian Montoya would just die already; she's a little twerp who hates Bullock and Jim's guts.


I agree great episode, and very much agree Montoya is an annoying waist of air time.  I really hated the on again off again thing with Lana and Clark on Smallville.  If her whole role is to be annoying and to try to drive a wedge between Jim and Barbara every other week I'm hoping she just eats a bullet.

----------


## ispacehead

> ...'m hoping she just eats a bullet.


Well, I doubt that will happen, but hopefully some of the weak female characters will get nailed down as the season progresses. I appreciated the brevity of Montoya's appearances in this ep, as well as those of Barbara and Essen.

The hypnotist was even a little weak I thought.

Is Jada Pinkett Smith the only female actress of any caliber available??

----------


## Black_Adam

> This was the best episode yet. I'm pumped to see next week's episode.


Agreed, I really liked it. For once a semi-interesting villain and some nice plot twists, also a very Bullock centric episode, and more Donal Logue is never a bad thing!
I like it how they showed he was a good cop when he was young very much like Gordon is now and he was still looking after his old partner in that nursing home.

Nygma having a crush, kinda cheesy but it was entertaining he reminded me of a male Felicity lol. I hope we start to get some development with him and we see his dark side come out, so far its been all fun and games with Ed but The Riddler can be a pretty sadistic, psychopathic individual, they need to start hinting towards that part of his persona with more than 5 minutes screen time every week.

The ending it looks like everything has hit the fan now and with Mr Zsasz also making his debut next week, should be interesting.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Take out boring old Fish and what do you have? The best episode yet. 

Finally, more Nygma screen time! Nice change of pace to have Gordon on the back seat. Loved the twist about the villain. All in all Gotham keeps improving!

----------


## brucekent12

Godd episode, it seems like th show overall is finding its way. Hooray!

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Is Jada Pinkett Smith the only female actress of any caliber available??


Morena Baccarrin is coming in as Dr Thompkins. She's not as famous but been working on Homeland and Stargate as well as being known for Firefly. She also voiced Black Canary in JLU and Talia in the DVD "Son of Batman" I know this strictly thanks to Google.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Showrunner Bruno Heller says the creation myth of Gotham can't be told without the creation of Arkham
http://tvline.com/2014/10/29/gotham-...arkham-asylum/
It says "spoilers" but I didn't hear anything new really.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Morena Baccarrin is coming in as Dr Thompkins. She's not as famous but been working on Homeland and Stargate as well as being known for Firefly. She also voiced Black Canary in JLU and Talia in the DVD "Son of Batman" I know this strictly thanks to Google.


She's also muy caliente.  :Smile:  Out-of-this-world gorgeous, even.

----------


## ispacehead

> Morena Baccarrin is coming in as Dr Thompkins. She's not as famous but been working on Homeland and Stargate as well as being known for Firefly. She also voiced Black Canary in JLU and Talia in the DVD "Son of Batman" I know this strictly thanks to Google.


I read that. Not familiar with her, but hopefully she'll be an improvement over some of the other female casting decisions.

----------


## josai21

Episode 8 Summary:Gordon and Bullock investigate a Gothamite who runs a deadly fight club for candidates applying to work at his financial firm. Meanwhile, Bruce returns to school and gets a visit from a new friend in the all-new “The Mask” 

Looks like we might be seeing Thomas Elliot if the preview pics are anything to go by...

----------


## The Whovian

Was able to finally watch this episode and it was fantastic! The best ep yet. I loved it. Bullock was awesome. The story was great. And the end of the ep with Cobblepot walking in and everyone's reaction was cool. Can't wait for next week's ep

----------


## The Whovian

> She's also muy caliente.  Out-of-this-world gorgeous, even.


She was stunning is Firefly, but looked homely in Homeland. Hope they let her grow her hair back out and that she looks like she did in Firefly

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> She was stunning is Firefly, but looked homely in Homeland. Hope they let her grow her hair back out and that she looks like she did in Firefly


_Firefly_ Morena would also be my preference.

----------


## Abishai100

Tomorrow is Devil's Night, the night-before-Halloween traditionally reserved for special libertine acts of mischief which have in the past escalated to problematic vandalism; and, of course, this Friday, Halloween eve, the last episode of "Gotham" (Fox TV) will re-air.

There has been such handsome talk about "Gotham" (Fox TV), and it is really beginning to stand out amidst all the flurry of comic book adapted television programs such as "Arrow" (The CW).

This popularity is in no small way related to recent trends in populism politics that have given rise to the street-justice fantasy comic book universe.  Eco-activists have been referencing Batman (DC Comics) villains such as Poison Ivy, the radical female scientist-turned-ecoterrorist, in populist talks about liberal intrigue.

We don't want this comic book fervor to catalyze into media-catalyzed hysteria or even mayhem.  Remember some years back when people were claiming that the Hollywood (USA) movie "Natural Born Killers" (Oliver Stone) was catalyzing copycat crimes by media-crazed youth?

Perhaps "Gotham" (Fox TV) will feature an episode about a new libertine nemesis such as Black Mask or Bombman (a madman who plants explosive devices in cop cars and taxi-cabs) who will challenge Gotham with vigilantism mayhem.





 :EEK!: 


Mayhem (Avatar)


scarecrow.jpg

----------


## Godzilla2099

Finally watched the episode.  Excellent as usual.  

What did Selena take from Wayne Manor?  I don't recognize the object

Montoya is so Fk'ing unlikable its not even funny

----------


## The Whovian

> Finally watched the episode.  Excellent as usual.  
> 
> What did Selena take from Wayne Manor?  I don't recognize the object
> 
> *Montoya is so Fk'ing unlikable its not even funny*


Yep, it's obvious she has it out for Jim because she still loves Barbara

----------


## JasonTodd428

Montoya is really starting to annoy me to be honest but then again I think we are supposed to find her unlikable. I'd say the actress is doing her job pretty well if that is the case.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Montoya is really starting to annoy me to be honest but then again I think we are supposed to find her unlikable. I'd say the actress is doing her job pretty well if that is the case.


Well, yeah they definitely have written her as unlikable so far. Can't fault the actress.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

anyone else find themselves dropping out of watching Marvel's Agents Of Shield And Arrow while at the same time being hyped for the next episode of gotham? It's weird i can still catch the flash and I'm gonna try to see constantine(missed the first episode cause i was asleep)but Arrow And Shield have just somehow became boring for me...i don't know how to explain it

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Yep, it's obvious she has it out for Jim because she still loves Barbara


i almost feel like the only reason she's A Lesbian in the show is just to cause problems between Barbara And Jim

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> anyone else find themselves dropping out of watching Marvel's Agents Of Shield And Arrow while at the same time being hyped for the next episode of gotham? It's weird i can still catch the flash and I'm gonna try to see constantine(missed the first episode cause i was asleep)but Arrow And Shield have just somehow became boring for me...i don't know how to explain it


I like all five comic-book shows, but _Gotham_ and _The Flash_ are my favorites.

----------


## General Nerditry

I'm still really enjoying Agents of Shield, but Gotham also keeps improving.  It's a great time to be a comic book geek.  :Smile:

----------


## GlennSimpson

> anyone else find themselves dropping out of watching Marvel's Agents Of Shield And Arrow while at the same time being hyped for the next episode of gotham? It's weird i can still catch the flash and I'm gonna try to see constantine(missed the first episode cause i was asleep)but Arrow And Shield have just somehow became boring for me...i don't know how to explain it


I'd say Arrow and Flash are my favorites, followed by Gotham and SHIELD, followed by Constantine (so far).

(Which leaves out Walking Dead which is rather in a category all its own).

----------


## PretenderNX01

There's an article with a bit of an interview with Andrew Baseman, the set decorator for Gotham about the set for Wayne Manor.
http://www.latimes.com/home/la-lh-go...023-story.html
The actual house is a 1914 mansion on Long Island. The interiors are shot on a soundstage. There's a slideshow too (the phrase "leather bound books" always makes me think of Ron Burgandy. LOL)

Also, Vulture noted that "Gotham" actually means "goat's town" which is probably what inspired the Spirit of the Goat. 
http://www.vulture.com/2014/10/gotha...-the-goat.html
_There is a flimsy but almost-thoughtful reason why the villain of the week on last night's Gotham is called the Goat: Gotham comes from the Middle English word for "Goat's Town." Washington Irving didn't coin the term, but he is credited as the first person to use it in association with New York City. Prior to that, British fairy-tales refer to Gotham as the home of madmen, simpletons, and fools. So it stands to reason that the bad guy in "Spirit of the Goat," a serial killer who ostensibly represents the city rebelling against its more wealthy patrons, is the Goat. Once you know who he is and why he does what he does, you can read all sorts of things into the Goat's name._ 




> i almost feel like the only reason she's A Lesbian in the show is just to cause problems between Barbara And Jim


Well, she was a lesbian in the comics but younger and not a part of Barbara/Jim so that whole triangle is for the show. I guess every show needs one but it's not my favorite part of the series. I don't hate it but they haven't really established them enough to care that much. It's kind of like over-hearing a couple arguing at the mall. It's like "Well that's too bad but I don't really know them"




> anyone else find themselves dropping out of watching Marvel's Agents Of Shield And Arrow while at the same time being hyped for the next episode of gotham?


Shield and Gotham are the only ones I watch so I'm still on board with both. They're very different shows though, I'd actually argue Shield is more serious even though it's not as dark. Gotham gets dark but it more stylized. I haven't seen Flash but it seems to be more of a flair than maybe Arrow? That could be what you're reacting to. I don't know.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> It's a great time to be a comic book geek.


Totally. We actually have choices. The fact we can even complain about one comic book show and say we prefer a different one is pretty cool. Same for movies.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> (Which leaves out Walking Dead which is rather in a category all its own).


If we are including it, though (and I wasn't before), it would be in front of even _Gotham_. That show is just flat-out perfect, IMO.

----------


## ispacehead

> Montoya is really starting to annoy me to be honest but then again I think we are supposed to find her unlikable. I'd say the actress is doing her job pretty well if that is the case.


Her character isn't likeable, but the performance is dreadful. Well, that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but definitely not my favorite performance. Her partner's character isn't supposed to be likeable either, and I find that performance to be much much better. The guy just oozes slime behind that smile. I wanna take shower after his scenes.

The Barbara/Montoya storyline kinda seems forced, so maybe it isn't entirely the fault of the actors involved.

Maybe Montoya's character will improve when she's dragged into the light by our hero.

----------


## General Nerditry

> If we are including it, though (and I wasn't before), it would be in front of even _Gotham_. That show is just flat-out perfect, IMO.


If you're talking about season 5, I agree.  They are *nailing* it this season, but past seasons have been wildly uneven, though I thought season 4 was mostly really good.  Season 3 got pretty awful for a while...

But go Gotham!

----------


## JohnnyGoodboy

Best episode of Gotham so far no coincidence Fish Mooney was nowhere to be seen.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The Barbara/Montoya storyline kinda seems forced, so maybe it isn't entirely the fault of the actors involved.


I feel the same way about that subplot and I think its pretty much only there to add to the tension in their relationship perhaps in order to mirror Jim's affair with Essen in the comics. Personally, I think there would be enough tension between them anyway without it given the kind of job Jim has and the city that they live in. 




> Maybe Montoya's character will improve when she's dragged into the light by our hero.


I hope your right. At the moment I cringe whenever she comes onscreen.

----------


## Red_11

> anyone else find themselves dropping out of watching Marvel's Agents Of Shield And Arrow while at the same time being hyped for the next episode of gotham? It's weird i can still catch the flash and I'm gonna try to see constantine(missed the first episode cause i was asleep)but Arrow And Shield have just somehow became boring for me...i don't know how to explain it


Nope.  

I gave up on AoS partway through the first season, it's just not very good.  Flash is fantastic, the new season of Arrow is shaping up to be great, and Constantine shows promise.  Gotham is better than AoS, but it is wildly uneven in it's tone and pace.  Despite liking the last ep, Gotham has a ways to go before it catches up to most of the other comics related shows currently airing.

----------


## The Batlord

What's with all the people that find Montoya, and apparently her partner, unlikable? They're two of the only honest cops in Gotham, who are investigating someone who they have every reason to believe killed someone for the mob, and who is the partner of Harvey Bullock, a known corrupt cop. Sure Montoya's thing with Barbara is influencing her, but if it wasn't she'd still be doing exactly what she's doing. Do people just not like someone who's butting heads with the main character on principle or something? I mean, I don't particularly care about her, but I've never felt negatively towards her.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> What's with all the people that find Montoya, and apparently her partner, unlikable? They're two of the only honest cops in Gotham, who are investigating someone who they have every reason to believe killed someone for the mob, and who is the partner of Harvey Bullock, a known corrupt cop. Sure Montoya's thing with Barbara is influencing her, but if it wasn't she'd still be doing exactly what she's doing. Do people just not like someone who's butting heads with the main character on principle or something? I mean, I don't particularly care about her, but I've never felt negatively towards her.


Yeah, they are the only honest cops in Gotham. How the hell can they possibly have time devote so much energy towards going after Gordon, of all people for the one crime he may have actually committed as opposed to the dozens of crimes all the other cops in Gotham commit in broad daylight every day. If this is their job (and they are major crimes unit, not Internal Affairs, really they should be contributing to the serial killer cases Gordon and Bullock have been working on, or the ongoing gangwar that their precious cobblepot has stirred up), then where do they find the time? 

Gordon's the one that's new to Gotham, and because of that has to explain to his boss why he lacks to corruption they are so transparant about they probably put in the job application, where do these two live?

----------


## EdwardNigma

I liked that they focused a little more on Nigma but he needs to be more arrogant and egotistical like his Animated or Arkham games persona. Ed isn't awkward and despised. Ed is so arrogant he believes he is superior to everyone else therefore despised. Hopefully they focus on that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What's with all the people that find Montoya, and apparently her partner, unlikable? They're two of the only honest cops in Gotham, who are investigating someone who they have every reason to believe killed someone for the mob, and who is the partner of Harvey Bullock, a known corrupt cop. Sure Montoya's thing with Barbara is influencing her, but if it wasn't she'd still be doing exactly what she's doing. Do people just not like someone who's butting heads with the main character on principle or something? I mean, I don't particularly care about her, but I've never felt negatively towards her.


I don't have a problem with Montoya butting heads with Gordon or with her wanting to believe that he is just as corrupt as the other GPD officers or for her wanting to find evidence that backs up her assumption. My problem, if you can call it that, is that she's quite clearly letting her jealosy at Jim's relationship with Barbara be the motivation behind her actions. She's not doing this to bring a corrupt cop to justice at all she's doing it for a far less noble reason. She's hurt so she wants Barbara to hurt as much as she does and I find that to be petty even if it's also something that happens in real life.

----------


## godisawesome

Yeah, at some point during the translation from script to screen, Montoya's orientation went from "character trait" to "character." It clashes a lot with the very professional nature of her original interpretation, and since both aspects of her character (opposed to Gordon professionaly and personally) as current are manufactured conflicts with Gordon for the purpose of the show having inter-police drama, she's in a weird place that makes it hard for the audience to root for her or her partner at all.

I'm predicting that at some point, Bullock and Gordn will be split as partners, with Gordon getting Flass as a partners deliberately try and corrupt him, and Montoya and Bullock will get their partnership, which will naturally feature them slowly coming to respect each other.

----------


## ispacehead

> I'm predicting that at some point, Bullock and Gordn will be split as partners, with Gordon getting Flass as a partners deliberately try and corrupt him, and Montoya and Bullock will get their partnership, which will naturally feature them slowly coming to respect each other.


I'd be down for that.

I like her more when she isn't in scenes with Barbara.

Matter of fact I like Barbara more in scenes without Montoya.

That whole storyline really just isn't working for me I guess.

----------


## heyevaxx

Different views on Montoya ...

Comics background:
I read Renee from the tail end of Gotham Central (#33-40) and through the rest of her pre-52 appearances. Great character, intense, conflicted, almost "Wire-ish." I even liked her as The Question.

TV show implementation:
Ok, in Gotham she's Latina (check), lesbian (check), GCPD (check), partnered with Crispus (check) and she has a hard edge (check).

Despite these comic book connections, the tv show has only stressed 2 characteristics for Renee making her kind of mono-jerk-ish:
1) she's hung up on a former relationship with Barbara creating an angst filled love triangle with the show's lead and fiancee
2) she's working with Crispus investigating and finally arresting Gordon and then (bonus!) Harv too

I don't think we've been given much to actually *like* about Montoya up to now. She's still hooked on her old flame who's engaged now and she's investigating Gordon. And I don't think she's just investigating/chasing Gordon because of Barbara. Both Renee and Crispus think Harv is corrupt and a jerk; nailing Harv's new partner might also pull Harv down. And right after they arrest Jim, Harv says something that earned him cuffs too.

Has Montoya really done anything that's unreasonable? Her first scene has her asking to take the Wayne case from Harv and Jim. It's obvious she and Cris don't respect Harv, they know he's corrupt and they dislike him, a lot. Plus, Harv says to Renee "you can kiss my ass." No wonder Renee and Cris think Harv is corrupt a-hole (I love Harv by the way).

So I'm not disappointed with how Renee's been written or acted. It's just that so far we've only been given things to dislike about her and there's just been 6 episodes. Given some more time we might see something else about Renee and maybe get some solo scenes for her and Cris.

PS - @godisawesome _...Montoya and Bullock will get their partnership, which will naturally feature them slowly coming to respect each other._
This would be great! I think there's a lot the writers can do with Montoya over time like mixing up the partners, good idea.

----------


## The Batlord

> Yeah, they are the only honest cops in Gotham. How the hell can they possibly have time devote so much energy towards going after Gordon, of all people for the one crime he may have actually committed as opposed to the dozens of crimes all the other cops in Gotham commit in broad daylight every day. If this is their job (and they are major crimes unit, not Internal Affairs, really they should be contributing to the serial killer cases Gordon and Bullock have been working on, or the ongoing gangwar that their precious cobblepot has stirred up), then where do they find the time? 
> 
> Gordon's the one that's new to Gotham, and because of that has to explain to his boss why he lacks to corruption they are so transparant about they probably put in the job application, where do these two live?


We're not talking about just police corruption, we're talking about a Gotham police officer doing a hit for the mob. That's much bigger than shaking down someone for money, or taking favors from a hooker, or not paying for your donuts.

And it's a cop show. How can _any_ of the cops in _any_ cop show on TV have the kind of time to spend on their cases that they do? Same thing with the internal affairs thing. I forget how their investigation started, but it may just be that he wasn't a suspect at first, and so it just wasn't an IA case. If so, then I also don't know internal affairs procedures about taking over other another officer's case. Maybe the original detectives still continue to investigate a case even after another police officer becomes a suspect. Regardless, it's still a cop show, and cop shows don't make sense. Why on Earth, in every cop show ever made, do non-SWAT main characters always take point on SWAT operations WHILE carrying pistols and wearing less body armor than the SWAT members who are always carrying automatic rifles?

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Love the reversal of Bullock being the caring white knight cop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what changed to make him the man he is today.  Wow, that ending, a LOT of stuff hit the fan!  Explains why they kept all the mob people out of this episode, but it looks like their tensions will escalate next week.




> I thought this was an interesting episode in that it kept me guessing. With the penny reveal I thought they might be taking on The Penny Plunderer. Only because there was a list going around of villains too wacky to work on Gotham.


I could see them doing King Tut.  With LOTS of tweaking, sure, but it'd be fun to reference him.




> but nope...we didn't really get that  all we got was some therapist brainwashing her patients so they could murder rich people.....eh


I liked it, and she reminded me a lot of Spellbinder from Batman Beyond (not really familiar with how he operates in the comics) since he was a high school psychologist who brainwashed rich kids to rob from their parents.  I loved Bullock putting all the pieces together and how excited he was when he explained the grasping hand thing...I just think it was kind of weird how she casually admitted to him being right and then ordered a brainwashed patient to kill him.  That's a lot harder to cover up when she had a good scheme going before.




> Nygma having a crush, kinda cheesy but it was entertaining he reminded me of a male Felicity lol. I hope we start to get some development with him and we see his dark side come out, so far its been all fun and games with Ed but The Riddler can be a pretty sadistic, psychopathic individual, they need to start hinting towards that part of his persona with more than 5 minutes screen time every week.


He seemed really perverse to me in the Viper episode, practically giggling whenever someone died in a fascinating way.  Felicity, ha, that's funny, he actually reminded me of Sheldon from Big Bang Theory.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Has Montoya really done anything that's unreasonable?


She deliberately lied to Barbara about how Mario Pepper died to try and set her against Gordon.




> We're not talking about just police corruption, we're talking about a Gotham police officer doing a hit for the mob. That's much bigger than shaking down someone for money, or taking favors from a hooker, or not paying for your donuts.
> 
> And it's a cop show. How can _any_ of the cops in _any_ cop show on TV have the kind of time to spend on their cases that they do? Same thing with the internal affairs thing. I forget how their investigation started, but it may just be that he wasn't a suspect at first, and so it just wasn't an IA case. If so, then I also don't know internal affairs procedures about taking over other another officer's case. Maybe the original detectives still continue to investigate a case even after another police officer becomes a suspect. Regardless, it's still a cop show, and cop shows don't make sense. Why on Earth, in every cop show ever made, do non-SWAT main characters always take point on SWAT operations WHILE carrying pistols and wearing less body armor than the SWAT members who are always carrying automatic rifles?


First of all, yes he was a suspect from the very beginning. They were on his case before they knew Cobblepot was dead. Secondly the MCU ASKED for the Wayne case. Bullock only got stuck with it because they were the first ones there. Since then all murder cases go to Gordon and Bullock regardless of whether they are first ones there. Even in the shows internal established rules, the MCU don't add up.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

i also like to remind people that just Like Harley Quinn....Montoya originally appeared on Batman TAS(The Comics weren't where she got her start)

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I could see them doing King Tut.  With LOTS of tweaking, sure, but it'd be fun to reference him.


That's actually the one that jumped out at me too.  :Stick Out Tongue:  
People think they're reincarnated religious figures and start cults and Arkham might be a place to treat someone like that in the way they have Maxie Zeus.
Maybe instead of going mad in Jerusalem as in Jerusalem Syndrome he snapped while in Egypt. 
And supposedly Fox owns the rights to him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cters#King_Tut

----------


## Tupiaz

Falcone aren't happy with Gordon not killing Penguin so he is sending Zsasz. Penguin and Maroni plans who to strike against Falcone.

----------


## The Batlord

> She deliberately lied to Barbara about how Mario Pepper died to try and set her against Gordon.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, yes he was a suspect from the very beginning. They were on his case before they knew Cobblepot was dead. Secondly the MCU ASKED for the Wayne case. Bullock only got stuck with it because they were the first ones there. Since then all murder cases go to Gordon and Bullock regardless of whether they are first ones there. Even in the shows internal established rules, the MCU don't add up.


Your entire argument seems to assume that Gotham, unlike all other cop shows, is consistent with real life police logic, and isn't full of CSI-like nonsense. Of course Gordon and Bullock are getting all the murder cases, because it's a cop show and that's what happens in cop shows. Blame _Law and Order_, not Renee Montoya. I need to put that on a shirt, just to confuse people.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Your entire argument seems to assume that Gotham, unlike all other cop shows, is consistent with real life police logic, and isn't full of CSI-like nonsense. Of course Gordon and Bullock are getting all the murder cases, because it's a cop show and that's what happens in cop shows. Blame _Law and Order_, not Renee Montoya. I need to put that on a shirt, just to confuse people.


Besides just because you don't heard about other murder cases doesn't mean they aren't there. It is not right to assume Gordon and Bullock gets all the cases just because we don't hear about them.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Your entire argument seems to assume that Gotham, unlike all other cop shows, is consistent with real life police logic, and isn't full of CSI-like nonsense. Of course Gordon and Bullock are getting all the murder cases, because it's a cop show and that's what happens in cop shows. Blame _Law and Order_, not Renee Montoya. I need to put that on a shirt, just to confuse people.


I don't care about real life police logic, I care about the shows internal logic. In which, firstly, Montoya and Allen should never have made it far without having to make some concessions concerning the corruption in the Gotham City like Gordon is surrounded by.

----------


## ispacehead

> Falcone aren't happy with Gordon not killing Penguin so he is sending Zsasz....


Oooohh.....

That's exciting.

----------


## CocktailXYZ

So I may have missed it, but... why the penny thing? 

Was it just there as a MacGuffin to lead Bullock to solving the case, or was the psychiatrist making some sort of statement with it? And ignoring the poor perceptive abilities or lack of thoroughness from the coroner...if it was a statement, why not make it easier to find?

----------


## The Batlord

> I don't care about real life police logic, I care about the shows internal logic. In which, firstly, Montoya and Allen should never have made it far without having to make some concessions concerning the corruption in the Gotham City like Gordon is surrounded by.


I'm not saying you shouldn't criticize the show for conforming to cliched tropes---I've been sick of them since before even CSI---but it's unfair to use that to characterize Montoya because of them, since they don't necessarily reflect her _as a character_. I agree with heyvaxx. I don't think we've seen enough of her really to judge her yet. I see her preoccupation with Gordon and his wife as a (hopefully) good way to build tension in what will clearly become a more comic book-like relationship between her, Gordon, Bullock, her current partner, and likely Bruce in an unofficial capacity, when they all finally band together to take down corruption in Gotham.

I actually kind of like her and Barbara's dynamic, as it shows that she can become conflicted toward her duty vs. her own personal sense of right and wrong; after all, it's not just an issue of some guy marrying the woman she loves, but of someone she cares about marrying a suspected murderer---and if she's willing to possibly put her investigation in danger by giving warnings to her suspect's fiance, then she might also be willing to deal with a vigilante out of necessity. So, if you look at it in the long term, it's (maybe) actually a good character building device.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> So I may have missed it, but... why the penny thing? 
> 
> Was it just there as a MacGuffin to lead Bullock to solving the case, or was the psychiatrist making some sort of statement with it? And ignoring the poor perceptive abilities or lack of thoroughness from the coroner...if it was a statement, why not make it easier to find?


Making a statement. But yeah, you'd think she would've made the statement a little bigger after it was being kept out of the press

----------


## ispacehead

> I actually kind of like her and Barbara's dynamic, ...


Watching the episode a second time, I will say this is the best episode for that dynamic.

Their relationship got off to a clunky onscreen start, but it seems to bother me less as time goes on.

----------


## Abishai100

I'm becoming concerned that comic book television programs such as "Gotham" (Fox TV) could motivate copycat maniacs.

Remember those crimes some years back supposedly related to copycat killers hysterically hyping the crime-glorification Hollywood (USA) movie "Natural Born Killers" (Oliver Stone)?

Well, today at 3am in DC a man with an ax attacked a police officer sitting in his parked cop car.  Some weeks ago, NYC cops were attacked with hatchets.

We shouldn't blame the comic book world, just as we can't really blame Hollywood movies, but you would think that comic book programs would also inspire optimistic acts of community values (i.e., neighborhood curfews, etc.).

I'm excited to see Edward Nygma (the future Riddler!) becoming involved with a fingerprint-identification scheme in "Gotham" (Fox TV).


 :EEK!:

----------


## Tupiaz

> So I may have missed it, but... why the penny thing? 
> 
> Was it just there as a MacGuffin to lead Bullock to solving the case, or was the psychiatrist making some sort of statement with it? And ignoring the poor perceptive abilities or lack of thoroughness from the coroner...if it was a statement, why not make it easier to find?


I couldn't figure out if it was an easter egg for Penny Plunderer.




> I'm becoming concerned that comic book television programs such as "Gotham" (Fox TV) could motivate copycat maniacs.
> 
> Remember those crimes some years back supposedly related to copycat killers hysterically hyping the crime-glorification Hollywood (USA) movie "Natural Born Killers" (Oliver Stone)?
> 
> Well, today at 3am in DC a man with an ax attacked a police officer sitting in his parked cop car.  Some weeks ago, NYC cops were attacked with hatchets.
> 
> We shouldn't blame the comic book world, just as we can't really blame Hollywood movies, but you would think that comic book programs would also inspire optimistic acts of community values (i.e., neighborhood curfews, etc.).
> 
> I'm excited to see Edward Nygma (the future Riddler!) becoming involved with a fingerprint-identification scheme in "Gotham" (Fox TV).


If you go out and kill people because you see it in a comic/game/video/whatever then you already lack the values of the society. It is not the mediums fault but the person attackings fault. Seems rather bizzare to say "we should not blame comics but videos those are the true problem forcing people to kill each other."

----------


## blackbolt396

Show is getting better with each episode,glad it has legs now.Just wish we can have more Alfred I love that they show the loyalty  he has for Bruce.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Glad they have Zsasz. I would love if they had Maxie Zeus on this. He would be perfect for Gotham.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> What's with all the people that find Montoya, and apparently her partner, unlikable? They're two of the only honest cops in Gotham, who are investigating someone who they have every reason to believe killed someone for the mob, and who is the partner of Harvey Bullock, a known corrupt cop. Sure Montoya's thing with Barbara is influencing her, but if it wasn't she'd still be doing exactly what she's doing. Do people just not like someone who's butting heads with the main character on principle or something? I mean, I don't particularly care about her, but I've never felt negatively towards her.


Honest?  They're piss poor cops!  Hell, Bullock was shown to be a better police officer than both of them combined

If they were good cops:

- They'd have made a more diplomatic attempt at taking the Wayne Case from Bullock
- Montoya would have done a far better job investigating Gordon

Montoya only was after Gordon because she wants a piece of Barbara.  Period.  

- Did she make attempts at going after Bullock?  Other GCPD?  The Mayor?
- Hell, why not go after the real criminals?

Monotoya is utterly unlikable.  Her holier-than-thou approach makes me cringe every time she is on screen.

My only other problem with this show was how they tried to make the man framed for the Wayne Murders 'innocent'.  LOL, the SOB was a rapist, wife beater, and he no problem trying to add murder to his list.  I loved the part when Bullock killed his ass.  I rolled my eyes so hard when the wife was upset with GCPD for killing him.  What a tool.  Great mother exposing your child through that.

The only Honest Cop is Jim Gordon.  He's proved it even when thrown in some of the worst situations

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

2 days until another new episode of gotham hits the airwaves....I Gotta Wonder how they are gonna keep this momentum going when crap like Fish Mooney's Sexy Killer And Montoya's Hunt for Gordon Take Up Too Much Screen Time....

what the hell is even going on anymore? 

Oswald Cobblepot has spilled the beans on his assumed demise...making bullock not only furious at gordon but heavily questioning how much he can trust him...knowing that he let cobblepot live and has secretly been using him to get Intel on this arkham war

falcone and mooney now know that cobblepot's still alive...so his ass is about to be in much hotter water

what kind of cliffhanger could they leave us on this monday?....knowing that oswald won't be allowed to leave so quickly without being taken in for questioning and gordon will be on a much shorter leash

----------


## PretenderNX01

_Roughly 22.2 million watched the premiere of “Gotham” in the month following its Sept. 22 premiere on Fox, which drew 8.3 million same-night viewers. An additional 8.9 million watched either via DVR playback in the first week or via video on demand in the first three days, but there were also about 5 million more who watched on VOD on day four or after or online via Hulu and FoxNow.

Non-linear viewing accounted for 23% of “Gotham’s” total audience, and the 5 million gained via this manner is the largest for any Fox telecast in the last three years, the network said./_

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/rati...ng-1201344529/

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## EdwardNigma

> _Roughly 22.2 million watched the premiere of “Gotham” in the month following its Sept. 22 premiere on Fox, which drew 8.3 million same-night viewers. An additional 8.9 million watched either via DVR playback in the first week or via video on demand in the first three days, but there were also about 5 million more who watched on VOD on day four or after or online via Hulu and FoxNow.
> 
> Non-linear viewing accounted for 23% of “Gotham’s” total audience, and the 5 million gained via this manner is the largest for any Fox telecast in the last three years, the network said./_
> 
> http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/rati...ng-1201344529/


Great news! Glad the show is doing well. Hopefully it lasts for many season.

----------


## The Batlord

> Honest?  They're piss poor cops!  Hell, Bullock was shown to be a better police officer than both of them combined
> 
> If they were good cops:
> 
> - They'd have made a more diplomatic attempt at taking the Wayne Case from Bullock


How do you diplomatically take someone's case? Kind of nitpicky, and I'll bet I can find just as relevant nitpicks about any character ever created in anything.




> - Montoya would have done a far better job investigating Gordon


How did she do a bad job? There wasn't even a body, so there was no way to figure out a murder weapon, or a time of death, or... anything. I mean the fact that, within six episodes, she was able to gather enough evidence to arrest Gordon for killing a man who wasn't even dead is actually kind of impressive.




> - Did she make attempts at going after Bullock?  Other GCPD?  The Mayor?


Didn't kill anybody.




> - Hell, why not go after the real criminals?


How do you know she didn't? She might have like five cases going on. And I'd say a cop who killed someone for the mob would qualify as a "real criminal".




> My only other problem with this show was how they tried to make the man framed for the Wayne Murders 'innocent'.  LOL, the SOB was a rapist, wife beater, and he no problem trying to add murder to his list.  I loved the part when Bullock killed his ass.  I rolled my eyes so hard when the wife was upset with GCPD for killing him.  What a tool.  Great mother exposing your child through that.
> 
> The only Honest Cop is Jim Gordon.  He's proved it even when thrown in some of the worst situations


Human relationships are complicated, and I'm sure abusive relationships are even more so. Whatever else the man was to her, he was also someone who had been an important and defining part of her life, likely many years, not to mention the father of her child. To assume that every abused woman is going to just dust her hands off and move on when her partner bites the big one is assuming a world where human interaction is two-dimensional.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> How do you diplomatically take someone's case? Kind of nitpicky, and I'll bet I can find just as relevant nitpicks about any character ever created in anything.


Yeah but accusing Gordon of crimes he didn't commit whilst at the same time trying to steal his fiance is ALL Montoya has going for her. We got mobhits goling down all over the place, not all being investigated by Gordon and Bullock but the writers see no reason to try and depict her doing anything productive. It's all in on being disruptive in a way that can't actually go anywhere because if Barbara even saw a picture of Cobblepot, or the GCPD heard how Montoya was trying to falsify the facts of the Pepper arrest, or Cobblepot read in the news that a hero cop was being tried for his murder it would end right there and then. And even if not, no body, no bullet, no case.

And audiences don't generally warm up to a character that is just one big time-wasting distraction. Hopefully she'll be more then that in the future.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> First of all, yes he was a suspect from the very beginning. They were on his case before they knew Cobblepot was dead.


This. Really no other reason I can think of, other than Montoya not liking Gordon because of Barbara.

----------


## MichaelC

> How did she do a bad job? There wasn't even a body, so there was no way to figure out a murder weapon, or a time of death, or... anything. I mean the fact that, within six episodes, she was able to gather enough evidence to arrest Gordon for killing a man who wasn't even dead is actually kind of impressive.


Eh, basically she just went to the last place anyone saw him and found a witness. It's more a testimony to the simple but effective job Gordon did framing himself.

----------


## The Batlord

> Yeah but accusing Gordon of crimes he didn't commit whilst at the same time trying to steal his fiance is ALL Montoya has going for her. We got mobhits goling down all over the place, not all being investigated by Gordon and Bullock but the writers see no reason to try and depict her doing anything productive. It's all in on being disruptive in a way that can't actually go anywhere because if Barbara even saw a picture of Cobblepot, or the GCPD heard how Montoya was trying to falsify the facts of the Pepper arrest, or Cobblepot read in the news that a hero cop was being tried for his murder it would end right there and then. And even if not, no body, no bullet, no case.
> 
> And audiences don't generally warm up to a character that is just one big time-wasting distraction. Hopefully she'll be more then that in the future.


How much time can you give her in an hour-long show that isn't about her, and where her whole storyline has been mostly a sideplot? Why would she be shown investigating anything else when anything else she would be doing would have nothing at all to do with the actual show? Should they introduce TWO police procedural plots in every episode? One the matters, and one that doesn't? And again, I doubt she'd be so concerned with Barbara if Montoya didn't think that the woman she probably loves was _marrying a murderer_.

But it's all a moot point now, since everybody knows that Cobblepot isn't dead, and, unless they just write her out of the show for some inexplicable reason, her role will now completely change.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> How much time can you give her in an hour-long show that isn't about her, and where her whole storyline has been mostly a sideplot? Should they introduce TWO police procedural plots in every episode? One the matters, and one that doesn't?


The mobwar fallout matters, it's the whole reason Montoya knew Cobblepot to begin with!

----------


## Nite-Wing

The only thing wrong with the show's portrayal is the lack of renee being focused on. She's only there to lead the manhunt on gordon for working with the mob.
Barbara is the same way she just reacts to all of Gordon's stress and secrets he's keeping from her.
The only time she got out of her apartment was this episode to talk to renee

----------


## heyevaxx

On why Renee Montoya chases Gordon, I think it's pretty clear she and Cris disliked and disrespected Harvey. They definitely thought Harv was a "bad" cop and corrupt from the moment we meet Renee and Cris.

From Renee's perspective, a dirt bag, corrupt cop gets a new partner who's engaged to her former flame. Then, she and Cris learn Gordon may have murdered a Fish lackey. It would be weird for her not to try to bring down Gordon.

Plus, in the midst of this Renee vs Jim talk recall: as far as Harv knew Jim *did* execute Oswald. Let that sink in ...

Harvey actually is a purely corrupt, easy going murderer who works closely with Gotham organized crime. Remember how Harv couldn't care less about Fish having a crook tortured in the alley? Recall how Harv was very matter a fact about getting Jim to execute Oswald? I wonder how many times has Harv arranged murders or did it himself? This isn't just protection money or skimming confiscated cash; planning and implementing murder.

Along with Fish, Harv planned Oswald's murder by a new, goodie goodie detective. How frakkin' corrupt can a cop get?!?

So, even though Jim didn't execute Oswald and Renee is hung up on her old flame, Harv is way, way corrupt and criminal and Renee going after Jim and hopefully Harv makes perfect sense.

BTW, I really like Harvey in Gotham and in the comics. I think Donal is hitting it out the park. The complicated writing (like Ivy's father) show nuanced, layered characters who have a ton of flaws. But they can also be funny, likable (at times), effective and even loved. Very Wire-ish indeed.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> On why Renee Montoya chases Gordon, I think it's pretty clear she and Cris disliked and disrespected Harvey. They definitely thought Harv was a "bad" cop and corrupt from the moment we meet Renee and Cris.
> 
> From Renee's perspective, a dirt bag, corrupt cop gets a new partner *who's engaged to her former flame*. Then, she and Cris learn Gordon may have murdered a Fish lackey. It would be weird for her not to try to bring down Gordon.


The part that I have in bold should mean absolutely nothing, in professional terms at any rate, when Montoya first meets Gordon. Should she keep an eye on him because of Bullock? Sure, but there's zero reason at the start (pre-Cobblepot "death") to think Gordon is corrupt. Yet, she had a chip on her shoulder at their first meeting.

----------


## heyevaxx

@The Darknight Detective

So "...who's engaged to her former flame" should mean absolutely nothing to Renee? Professional or not, emotions exist in the whole person and while others may think differently, I can see Renee casting a critical eye on Gordon.

IRL, police, DMV and our secret services have all been caught mining intel illegally on ex spouses and lovers and frequently doing more than just searching databases.

I'm not saying Renee working hard to take Jim down is *right* but that I understand it and I think it's a reasonable, believable reaction. Of course she shouldn't do it from a professional point of view but neither should Harv be arranging murders with the Gotham mob.

I just re-watched their first meeting and Renee and Cris ignore Jim except when Cris says "Good luck" as they walk to a booth to sit. It was plain from their meeting they totally dislike Harv and this he's corrupt. "Do the right thing for once" Renee says to Harv.

So I don't see Renee suspecting Jim himself is corrupt from their first meeting but I could see her thinking anyone partnered with Harv is corrupt or will be. Add after she finds out Barbara is engaged to the "rook" there's a recipe for Renee wanting to find dirt on Jim.

At least that's how I see it and I understand other viewers will think and feel very differently which is totally cool.

----------


## The Batlord

I still don't see why's she's unlikable. Even if her pursuit of Gordon is at least partially biased, she never comes across as being disingenuous in her suspicions. She's not trying to screw him over just to get Barbara back, she legitimately suspects him and not without reason. Her concern for Barbara is natural and commendable. Who wouldn't allow themselves to become emotionally involved in a case where a loved one was possibly in danger?

----------


## godisawesome

It's her getting introduced with a somewhat subpar story arc, accompanied by "needlessly" tying her into Gordon's personal life in a way that introduces her in an antagonistic and unprofessional manner, that grates on people's nerves. If a character is introduced as an honest cop and we see them calmly and cooly display their honesty in a productive manner, then that impression is going to be the first one used to formulate that character's identity on the mind of most of the viewing audience. Therefore, diverging from that characterization by showing introducing the character in a harsher light is taking a risk.

If they successfully transition Montoya back to cool honest cop, it'll be okay. But right now, there's a bad taste in the mouths of some fans because this is their initial impression of her, and only a few shows have ever managed to introduce a character like this and also make the reveal of their better nature organic as opposed to an about face by the writing team.

It's kind of like the Laurel vs Sara situation on Arrow. Laurel was introduced to the audience not as the badass and sultry Black Canary, but as an angsty Rachel Dawes archetype, then spent one season floating between other original but poorly executed plot arcs, and now has finally transitioned to...someone implicitly replacing an addiction to substance abuse with violence towards transgressors, with all the flaws that implies. Sara, on the other hand, was reintroduced as the kickass, mostly altruistic and mature heroine most fans were expecting Black Canary to be. That appeals more to a certain demographic that is alienated by the clearly more "soapy" styling of Laurel/Montoya's initial writing, so they express their displeasure by disliking the character.

It's demographics and unexpected and possibly inconsistent writing that's causing the problem on both shows with regards to these to female characters.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Oooohh.....
> 
> That's exciting.


I just hope he will be more than an assassin. That is not really who he is in the comics.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> On why Renee Montoya chases Gordon, I think it's pretty clear she and Cris disliked and disrespected Harvey. They definitely thought Harv was a "bad" cop and corrupt from the moment we meet Renee and Cris.


Only one reason why Renee chases Gordon:  She wants Barbara.  That's it.  Its beyond apparent that Bullock is a crooked cop but she never gave a rat's about it until Gordon came into the picture.  Her motive are greed and lust.  Like I said, she's utterly unlikable.

I don't get how this is even a debate.

What I loved about last week's episode is that how it showed how Bullock was an idealistic cop much like Gordon was.  Gotham molded him into the police officer he is today.  This is what's great having Bullock and Gordon together.  Gotham changed one cop but the other is trying to change Gotham.




> I still don't see why's she's unlikable. Even if her pursuit of Gordon is at least partially biased, she never comes across as being disingenuous in her suspicions. She's not trying to screw him over just to get Barbara back, she legitimately suspects him and not without reason. Her concern for Barbara is natural and commendable. Who wouldn't allow themselves to become emotionally involved in a case where a loved one was possibly in danger?


Even before Cobblepot, Montoya specifically went after Gordon during the framing of the Wayne's Murders.  Most GCPD was involved.  Did she target Bullock, a known crooked cop with ties to the mafia?  The person who found the pearls that actually planted the evidence?  No, she 'suspects' this straight-arrow rookie cop (because he had so much motive to do this) and goes straight to Barbara trying to cause drama and get a piece.

She's despicable

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

speaking of cobblepot....i don't see how he's gonna keep Gordon's trust after this goes down unless he somehow saves gordon's life and reputation(because  i don't see Oswald just letting gordon get into trouble when he still needs him....And Gordon Needs Him too)

that's the interesting thing about Oswald Cobblepot he's a villain while at the same time he has more or less a bit of a neutral side to him helping whoever can get him to the top of the mountain

at this moment he sees James Gordon as the perfect one because he's this upstanding pure rookie that has yet to be corrupted by gotham and so if he tells him he can save gotham city  He'll play along for awhile...

----------


## ispacehead

> I just hope he will be more than an assassin. That is not really who he is in the comics.


I've never really seen him as a mob guy, (...or a GUN guy for that matter...)  but I guess he had to start somewhere. Lots of time for him to become the freak we love.

I enjoyed his brazen attitude in the promo, but I hope they don't get carried away with the acrobatic bullet dodging bit.




> It's her getting introduced with a somewhat subpar story arc, accompanied by "needlessly" tying her into Gordon's personal life in a way that introduces her in an antagonistic and unprofessional manner, that grates on people's nerves.





> It's demographics...


Nailed it. I think her character will improve as the show progresses, as it seems to have already.




> speaking of cobblepot....i don't see how he's gonna keep Gordon's trust after this goes down...


I don't think Jim trusts Penguin for a second.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

but Penguin thinks he has gordon's trust that's all that matters and Gordon is simply just tolerating penguin for the facts he provides....i know he'd hate to admit it this but the sad truth is that Cobblepot probably knows more about this impending arkham war than anyone else around James Gordon and with how corrupt the city is...what's the difference between trusting A Known Criminal And Trusting A Cop who is more likely to stab you in the back than lend you a helping hand

gordon doesn't have many allies and even bullock isn't really all that as he still turns a blind eye to fish mooney

----------


## brucekent12

> but Penguin thinks he has gordon's trust that's all that matters and Gordon is simply just tolerating penguin for the facts he provides....i know he'd hate to admit it this but the sad truth is that Cobblepot probably knows more about this impending arkham war than anyone else around James Gordon and with how corrupt the city is...what's the difference between trusting A Known Criminal And Trusting A Cop who is more likely to stab you in the back than lend you a helping hand
> 
> gordon doesn't have many allies and even bullock isn't really all that as he still turns a blind eye to fish mooney


This is true. Gordn has saved Cobblepot's hide twice now, when he didn't shoot him in the pilot, and when he saved him from Maroni. And now Oswald has saved Gordon by showing up at the station. Sad thing is they will both use each other til one of them doesn't need the other one anymore, and then it will be war. Look out Gotham!

----------


## Tupiaz

> I've never really seen him as a mob guy, (...or a GUN guy for that matter...)  but I guess he had to start somewhere. Lots of time for him to become the freak we love.


In the show he already has several marks so he has killed several people. In the comics he seems to get the idea that all people should be liberated from life the first time he kills. This will make him a pretty different character. It seems like he is just to be a good assassin who likes to killed that is hired by the mob. I hope I'm wrong.

----------


## The Batlord

> Only one reason why Renee chases Gordon:  She wants Barbara.  That's it.  Its beyond apparent that Bullock is a crooked cop but she never gave a rat's about it until Gordon came into the picture.  Her motive are greed and lust.  Like I said, she's utterly unlikable.
> 
> I don't get how this is even a debate.


Because that's a totally shallow, knee-jerk characterization. Nobody has still countered my point that her primary motivation for repeatedly contacting Barbara is that someone she cares about is marrying a possible murderer. If she weren't understandably concerned over that then that would reflect far worse on her than her current actions. And it's completely ridiculous to think that the writers would write a character who is clearly meant to be a main protagonist as someone motivated only by "lust and greed", especially when they already have Bullock (Who is himself more nuanced than how you're describing Montoya.)

----------


## godisawesome

Y'know, some law enforcement officials and psychologists consider Hitmen to just be Serial Killers with a monetary sense of worth attached to their job, and all you'd need to establish that Zsasz is more than a stooge is some kind of mention about how he's only done a few jobs for Falcone-everything else is just his mission, like in the comics.

Or, Zsasz could be a hit man with a big ego, then he gets sent to Arkham, which we already know is going to be Gordon's beat for at least on episode, get "treated" by Hugo Strange, who has been mentioned as part of the show's planned cast, and becomes the one dimensional nightmare we all love to see get the crud beat out of.

----------


## godisawesome

> Because that's a totally shallow, knee-jerk characterization. Nobody has still countered my point that her primary motivation for repeatedly contacting Barbara is that someone she cares about is marrying a possible murderer. If she weren't understandably concerned over that then that would reflect far worse on her than her current actions. And it's completely ridiculous to think that the writers would write a character who is clearly meant to be a main protagonist as someone motivated only by "lust and greed", especially when they already have Bullock (Who is himself more nuanced than how you're describing Montoya.)



I actually agree with your more objective view; I do believe, however, that fans of the character from the comics are aggravated that Montoya, the kick-ass-take-names-and-all-out-of-Bubblegum badass and competent professional whose orientation was secondary to her altruism and protagonistic nature, has been introduced to new views and observers in an antagonistic role scripted for the demographic that cares far more about "shipping" and character conflicts than heroism and villainy. 

The old fans perceive it at best as a risky move, at worst a disservice to the character and the fanbase. And at least some new viewers have already turned on the character because she's in an antagonistic role and hasn't been written in a manner that emphasizes her altruism first and her tie to Barbara second. It's possible for someone watching the show without knowledge of the characters but a lifetime's experience from old TV shows about cops to believe wholeheartedly that Montoya is driven by jealousy above all else, because her relationship has been emphasized and because outside of Jim, the rest of the department has been portrayed as uniformly self-interested, if not corrupt.

Having seen screen caps of future episode, I think they're about to actually portray Montoya for the demographic most of us are: people far more interested in seeing heroes and villains who have somew on fete standing on the morality scale, as opposed to a subjective interpretation based on which relationship is written best. It looks like Allen and Montoya have allied with Gordon, and he's still working with Bullock, so maybe we'll see the nucleus of Gotham's good cops formed this week.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I just re-watched their first meeting and Renee and Cris ignore Jim except when Cris says "Good luck" as they walk to a booth to sit. It was plain from their meeting they totally dislike Harv and this he's corrupt. "Do the right thing for once" Renee says to Harv.


You're right. I just watched it again myself. However, the next time she meets him is after the planted evidence in Pepper's apartment. She already has gone to Barbara to tell her Jim is dirty. Evidence? Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Why assume he's involved then? Montoya and Allen should definitely be sniffing around him because of Bullock's influence, but there is absolutely no reason to conclude he was in on it.

I'm not one of the posters here who find her disagreeable, BTW. I understand what is going on here with her characterization, so I'm just waiting for her change of heart regarding Gordon in the future (besides, she's cute  :Smile: ). Having said that, I think her feelings for Barbara are affecting her professionalism at the moment, IMO.

----------


## The Batlord

> I actually agree with your more objective view; I do believe, however, that fans of the character from the comics are aggravated that Montoya, the kick-ass-take-names-and-all-out-of-Bubblegum badass and competent professional whose orientation was secondary to her altruism and protagonistic nature, has been introduced to new views and observers in an antagonistic role scripted for the demographic that cares far more about "shipping" and character conflicts than heroism and villainy.


I think some people are misinterpreting the demographic Fox is going for. Nobody watches the CW except for teenage girls (and now nerds because of _Arrow_ and _Flash_), whereas Fox is a network that is legitimately competitive in the general 18-35 demographic. They might not be in the top spot, but I'm certain they're far more concerned with a more general audience, if probably a bit of a younger one than CBS. So CW-like teen melodrama probably isn't going to fly in Gotham, and won't be a major focus. Also, they don't care about us nerds any more than the movie studios who make superhero movies do. We'll watch Gotham regardless, but Joe and Jane Sixpack require pandering if this show is to remain on the air.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> This is true. Gordn has saved Cobblepot's hide twice now, when he didn't shoot him in the pilot, and when he saved him from Maroni. And now Oswald has saved Gordon by showing up at the station. Sad thing is they will both use each other til one of them doesn't need the other one anymore, and then it will be war. Look out Gotham!


Cobblepot has no plans on cutting ties with gordon anytime soon and i really wouldn't them to....it's great seeing Gordon have to trust such a cunning weasel like  Cobblepot because he has nobody else to turn to...and for cobblepot to use Gordon's Pure Heart to clear away the competition before he takes full control of the city

----------


## Godzilla2099

> Because that's a totally shallow, knee-jerk characterization. Nobody has still countered my point that her primary motivation for repeatedly contacting Barbara is that someone she cares about is marrying a possible murderer. If she weren't understandably concerned over that then that would reflect far worse on her than her current actions. And it's completely ridiculous to think that the writers would write a character who is clearly meant to be a main protagonist as someone motivated only by "lust and greed", especially when they already have Bullock (Who is himself more nuanced than how you're describing Montoya.)


Montoya was trying to get Barbara to doubt Jim before he was suspected of murder.  It started with the Wayne Case. Like I said before, she didn't put any heat on Bullock or any of the other GCPD during the Wayne Fiasco.  Only Gordon.  Hm, I wonder why?  Then she used Cobblepot to add more fuel to the fire.  

Montoya doesn't genuinely care.  She wants what Jim has.  

Yes, she is a shallow character.  I hope Bullock uses her as a human shield when Zsasz starts unloading some rounds

----------


## ispacehead

> In the show he already has several marks so he has killed several people. In the comics he seems to get the idea that all people should be liberated from life the first time he kills. This will make him a pretty different character. It seems like he is just to be a good assassin who likes to killed that is hired by the mob. I hope I'm wrong.


I hope so too. 

In the preview, it looks like we see him in a different setting marking himself, so perhaps those killings are not ordered. The whimpering in the room as he marks himself might mean he's doing his own jobs in his down time.




> I think some people are misinterpreting the demographic Fox is going for.


How so?

----------


## godisawesome

> I think some people are misinterpreting the demographic Fox is going for. Nobody watches the CW except for teenage girls (and now nerds because of _Arrow_ and _Flash_), whereas Fox is a network that is legitimately competitive in the general 18-35 demographic. They might not be in the top spot, but I'm certain they're far more concerned with a more general audience, if probably a bit of a younger one than CBS. So CW-like teen melodrama probably isn't going to fly in Gotham, and won't be a major focus. Also, they don't care about us nerds any more than the movie studios who make superhero movies do. We'll watch Gotham regardless, but Joe and Jane Sixpack require pandering if this show is to remain on the air.


 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think that Arrow, Flash, Gotham and Shield are all competing just about equally at this point in that "all important" 18-35 demographic, and in such a way that it's not just the "geek vote" propelling that number. And while you're probably right in saying that the creators don't especially care what the most vocal fandoms say about the movies or shows, they do clearly utilize the nerds as free advertisements and all the shows have a powerful new media presence to capitalize on this.

And when I said shippers, I meant viewers who watch TV almost exclusively for the character relationships, not just the fanatical Tumblr people who make everyone else feel horribly uncomfortable. This group I think they're aiming at with the Barbara/Montoya subplot are the ones who watch medical dramas or stuff like Outlander, where a huge focus is put on emotional drama, but where there is at least an illusion of movement and maturity, as opposed to the CW-esque tween girl demographic. For instance, my buddy Chris's girlfriend is in the, er, more _mature_ section of the 18-35 demographic, and isn't nearly the geek we are. 

She's also definitely a Jane Sixpack in comparison to my sister, who is most definitely a shipper.

The first moment she got vocally interested in the show was when she realized there was a same-sex relationship with drama on the screen.

Contrast this with the more stereotypically male and "traditional comic book" audience of, say Gotham Central or 52, and you can see how the portrayal of Montoya in the show has favored the more "feminine" demographic in the show than the one that most of her vocal comic fans are a member of. It's not nearly as bad as Arrow, mind you, but it's still intended for a different audience than say, myself, or most of the geeky viewers. 

Thus far, Montoya's screen time has been focused on giving viewers who may have been dragged into watching the show by geekier friends or family a reason to stick around. All her scene's have been quieter, more subdued, and generally more straight faced than the rest of the show's dark humored, Burton Noir stylings.

----------


## heyevaxx

*So excited for this meeting in episode9!*

Mad props to Trevel8182 who posted this in the Catwoman (Selina Kyle) Appreciation thread.

See the post below by chipsnopotatoes in the Catwoman thread for some episode 9 and 10 previews/SPOILERS.

----------


## heyevaxx

Gotham is appealing to a much broader demographic than just the comic book readers. In fact, it's reaching lots of the movie goer crowd (Nolan-ites and casuals) to get it's ratings.

godisawesome makes a great point about getting to a broad audience. Strictly speaking there should be no Selina no Ivy, and no Renee due to their ages in the comics. Based on comics canon, we should have *zero* female characters after Bruce's parents being killed. Except for Dr Leslie Thompkins in one timeline. Plus, Montoya being gay is actually canon so her relationship with Barbara is at least partially rooted in canon.

So I don't mind at all their making the show more appealing to woman and non-comic readers. It's the only way we'll get a big budget show with high production values.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> *So excited for this meeting in episode9!*
> 
> Mad props to Trevel8182 who posted this in the Catwoman (Selina Kyle) Appreciation thread.
> 
> See the post below by chipsnopotatoes in the Catwoman thread for some episode 9 and 10 previews/SPOILERS.


Didn't read the spoilers but yeah, I think this pic is cute.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## ABH

Forgive me if this was posted, but I thought this was pretty cool...


http://www.pinterest.com/pin/120752833734544724/

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Gotham is appealing to a much broader demographic than just the comic book readers. In fact, it's reaching lots of the movie goer crowd (Nolan-ites and casuals) to get it's ratings.
> 
> godisawesome makes a great point about getting to a broad audience. Strictly speaking there should be no Selina no Ivy, and no Renee due to their ages in the comics. Based on comics canon, we should have *zero* female characters after Bruce's parents being killed. Except for Dr Leslie Thompkins in one timeline. Plus, Montoya being gay is actually canon so her relationship with Barbara is at least partially rooted in canon.
> 
> So I don't mind at all their making the show more appealing to woman and non-comic readers. It's the only way we'll get a big budget show with high production values.


honestly though...this part of Bruce's life is usually skipped over and we only see little pieces of what bruce did after his parents were killed by way of flashbacks

we never spend too much time there because it's all about what's going on in the present and not what has already happened so it's interesting that this show is filling in the blanks that the comics either didn't care about or figured it wasn't worth mentioning

i doubt anyone would really care about this series if the only comic book characters involved were Bruce Wayne  Harvey Bullock And James Gordon...You Gotta get them invested somehow! even comic book fans won't stick around if the show just turns into Gordon And Bullock Hunting Down Random No Name Criminals

you gotta learn to get everyone involved and give comic book fans something to enjoy and think about

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> honestly though...*this part of Bruce's life is usually skipped over and we only see little pieces of what bruce did after his parents were killed by way of flashbacks*
> 
> we never spend too much time there because it's all about what's going on in the present and not what has already happened so it's interesting that this show is filling in the blanks that the comics either didn't care about or figured it wasn't worth mentioning
> 
> i doubt anyone would really care about this series if the only comic book characters involved were Bruce Wayne  Harvey Bullock And James Gordon...You Gotta get them invested somehow! even comic book fans won't stick around if the show just turns into Gordon And Bullock Hunting Down Random No Name Criminals
> 
> you gotta learn to get everyone involved and give comic book fans something to enjoy and think about


QFT.

I think what we're going to see with GOTHAM is similar to what we saw with THE SIMPSONS, only in reverse.  Kinda.

THE SIMPSONS clearly started out as the Bart Simpson show ... for about the first two seasons (1989/1990, 1990/1991).  From the 3rd season onward, the emphasis shifted from the kid Bart to the show's true star (and my vote for greatest TV character ever): Homer Simpson. 

GOTHAM will start out as the Jim Gordon show, but give it a few successful seasons and it will undoubtedly eventually become the Bruce Wayne show. 

Also, I'm glad we're covering the fallout to the Wayne's murder bit by bit.  In some versions of the Batman legend, young Bruce Wayne leaves Gotham pretty much right after his parents' funeral ... which, in hindsight, was utterly ridiculous even by Batverse standards.  I hope we follow Bruce Wayne into high school, into his formal martial arts training, maybe as a proto-Robin afterhours, all leading up to a 21-year-old Batman on his first patrol.

----------


## Tupiaz

> honestly though...this part of Bruce's life is usually skipped over and we only see little pieces of what bruce did after his parents were killed by way of flashbacks
> 
> we never spend too much time there because it's all about what's going on in the present and not what has already happened so it's interesting that this show is filling in the blanks that the comics either didn't care about or figured it wasn't worth mentioning
> 
> i doubt anyone would really care about this series if the only comic book characters involved were Bruce Wayne  Harvey Bullock And James Gordon...You Gotta get them invested somehow! even comic book fans won't stick around if the show just turns into Gordon And Bullock Hunting Down Random No Name Criminals
> 
> you gotta learn to get everyone involved and give comic book fans something to enjoy and think about


Exactly! Besides people are way to concern about canon. It tells a part of the Batman mythos there has not been dealt with a lot (what can be brought into the comics will one way or another happen in the future if the success continues). The show has its own continuity and life let be with that and don't try to fit it in age wise with the current Batman books.

----------


## protege

> QFT.
> 
> I think what we're going to see with GOTHAM is similar to what we saw with THE SIMPSONS, only in reverse.  Kinda.
> 
> THE SIMPSONS clearly started out as the Bart Simpson show ... for about the first two seasons (1989/1990, 1990/1991).  From the 3rd season onward, the emphasis shifted from the kid Bart to the show's true star (and my vote for greatest TV character ever): Homer Simpson. 
> 
> GOTHAM will start out as the Jim Gordon show, but give it a few successful seasons and it will undoubtedly eventually become the Bruce Wayne show. 
> 
> Also, I'm glad we're covering the fallout to the Wayne's murder bit by bit.  In some versions of the Batman legend, young Bruce Wayne leaves Gotham pretty much right after his parents' funeral ... which, in hindsight, was utterly ridiculous even by Batverse standards.  I hope we follow Bruce Wayne into high school, into his formal martial arts training, maybe as a proto-Robin afterhours, all leading up to a 21-year-old Batman on his first patrol.


What I'm finding ridiculous and a bit unsettling is that this kid stayed in town., with no one to look after him other than the Family butler. Where's the rest of his family? he's developing into the batman at this early age, and it's just uncomfortable for me to watch.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Exactly! Besides people are way to concern about canon. It tells a part of the Batman mythos there has not been dealt with a lot (what can be brought into the comics will one way or another happen in the future if the success continues). The show has its own continuity and life let be with that and don't try to fit it in age wise with the current Batman books.


just look at agents of shield....the entire cast of characters are originals made for the television series(aside From Coulson who was created within the films)and having no prior attachment to those characters you don't really feel invested in what's going on  they have to build up the characters and unfortunately  they can't give every character an equal share of screen time so You'll always have that one character who you can't really care about one way or another

here?...there are expectations sure but I'd imagine there are a lot more people interested in seeing the penguin's rise to the top and selina's early start as a thief instead of seeing skye hack into something again while looking sexy doing it

----------


## phonogram12

> What I'm finding ridiculous and a bit unsettling is that this kid stayed in town., with no one to look after him other than the Family butler. Where's the rest of his family?


Well, like the comics, movies, other tv shows, etc., it's quite likely this version of Bruce has no other living family. Considering what's come before, it's not terribly far fetched.

----------


## Ceebiro

My problem with the inclusion of Bruce Wayne thus far is that it feels far too limited. If they're going to use it him, I'd like it if they explored Bruce's life outside of the family study. Surely he had friends somewhere or at least play companions. Didn't he go to school or was he home-schooled?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> My problem with the inclusion of Bruce Wayne thus far is that it feels far too limited. If they're going to use it him, I'd like it if they explored Bruce's life outside of the family study. Surely he had friends somewhere or at least play companions. Didn't he go to school or was he home-schooled?


pretty sure he was home-schooled....Gotham doesn't really seem like it has much in the way of schools

----------


## phonogram12

> My problem with the inclusion of Bruce Wayne thus far is that it feels far too limited. If they're going to use it him, I'd like it if they explored Bruce's life outside of the family study. Surely he had friends somewhere or at least play companions. Didn't he go to school or was he home-schooled?


One of the upcoming episodes has him returning to school.

----------


## phonogram12

> pretty sure he was home-schooled....Gotham doesn't really seem like it has much in the way of schools


God, could you imagine how terrible they would be?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> God, could you imagine how terrible they would be?


seeing as the city is so screwed up that most homes have rabbit ear television sets(while the rich have wide flat screen tv's)and the cars resemble ancient rellics

i could imagine....

----------


## heyevaxx

> My problem with the inclusion of Bruce Wayne thus far is that it feels far too limited. If they're going to use it him, I'd like it if they explored Bruce's life outside of the family study. Surely he had friends somewhere or at least play companions. Didn't he go to school or was he home-schooled?


I think having Bruce almost exclusively in the Wayne Manor study has to do with establishing all the sub-plots in the last 6 episodes. Also, the crew invested a lot of time and money in the study but I don't think any other Wayne Manor room has been built. Recall seeing Selina sneak into the study by a sleeping Bruce on a study couch and not in his bed.

Bruce will likely get out more once the plots are all rolling. It's tricky introducing too many characters though since there's already a big cast.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Chrysalis_Changling: i doubt anyone would really care about this series if the only comic book characters involved were Bruce Wayne Harvey Bullock And James Gordon...*You Gotta get them invested somehow!*





> Tupiaz: Besides people are way to concern about canon. It tells a part of the Batman mythos there has not been dealt with a lot... *The show has its own continuity and life let be with that and don't try to fit it in age wise with the current Batman books*.


I totally agree! I'm glad the producers and writers haven't gone strictly by the comics. While that might have satisfied more readers, I don't think it would have nearly as broad an appeal.

While they've changed a bunch of things, it's mostly been ages which I'm totally fine with. And by starting all the way back at the Wayne murders, they have more leeway with how they get Bruce to all the way to Batman.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

what annoys me is the legion of comic book nerds that rage whenever a batman character appears on this show...complaining that we gotta save some villains for when batman shows up...when batman shows up?!

how many times do we have to tell these idiots?! it's not a batman show it's not a batman show it's not a batman show....if we do see Bruce Don the Cowl it'll be after several seasons and It'll be the last scene of the series(much like what smallville did)...so what good does hoarding a bunch of villains do you if batman's not gonna be around to fight them?!

----------


## protege

> My problem with the inclusion of Bruce Wayne thus far is that it feels far too limited. If they're going to use it him, I'd like it if they explored Bruce's life outside of the family study. Surely he had friends somewhere or at least play companions. Didn't he go to school or was he home-schooled?


Personally, I'm waiting for Alfred's backstory.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Forgive me if this was posted, but I thought this was pretty cool...
> 
> 
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/120752833734544724/


Awesome art!




> One of the upcoming episodes has him returning to school.


Ah, is it summervacation right now or something? Would explain a lot. Though that makes me even sadder that a contemporary Harvey Dent can't be waiting for him there.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

i really cannot wait for Penguin to get his revenge on mooney

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> i really cannot wait for Penguin to get his revenge on mooney


And hopefully that means killing her in the most horrific manner possible.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> And hopefully that means killing her in the most horrific manner possible.


I saw a clip that was uploaded to the gotham youtube channel today that involved Mooney coming to Maroni's place to discuss her and falcone feeling disrespected by oswald cobblepot....so they demand a apology

after he apologizes...Fish Slaps Him and squeezes his face because he called her fish(which only her friends are allowed to do)

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 7 "Penguin's Umbrella" Starting to like Drew Powell as Butch Gilzean.  Whoa Mr. Zsasz!  Nice save by Montoya and Allen.   The Penguins scenes continue to entertain me and I wasn't expecting the reveal at the end.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> Episode 7 "Penguin's Umbrella" Starting to like Drew Powell as Butch Gilzean.  Whoa Mr. Zsasz!  Nice save by Montoya and Allen.   The Penguins scenes continue to entertain me and I wasn't expecting the reveal at the end.


I didn't expect that ending either.  Don Falcone is going to be right about Gordon.  Bullock was hilarious.

What was Butch and Barbara talking about?  It looks like much of that conversation was censored

----------


## tabo61

Great plot twist reveal.  Loved that scene where Zsaz forced everyone one to leave the police headquarters by being polite.

----------


## Nite-Wing

This was a really good episode
So much happened in one hour. We got Montoya's redemption,Penguin finally played his hand and revealed to the viewer how he's manipulating everyone,Falcone now knows about fish's lack of loyalty, Gordon and Bullock grow closer.
This show needs to be like this all the time and not just when the plot needs to move forward.

----------


## Tony

> Great plot twist reveal.  Loved that scene where Zsaz forced everyone one to leave the police headquarters by being polite.


The end reveal was great, but I felt Zsaz getting all the cops to leave so he could grab Jim was too far.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> We got Montoya's redemption,


She also confirmed what many of us felt about her personal feelings towards Barbara clouding her professional judgment. Since she's now on Team Gordon, though, all is good.  :Smile:

----------


## Pinsir

Eh, I really don't like these kinds of things where the villain says, "It was part of my plan all along!"

The Dark Knight was this and that is partly why I didn't like it that much.

----------


## doodledude

Another half assed lamely written episode.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Very entertaining episode tonight.  Penguin continues to soar higher and higher on this show.  To borrow a GAME OF THRONES analogy, the Penguin is GOTHAM's Littlefinger.  Taking that bit further than necessary ... Jim Gordon is GOTHAM's Ned Stark, Harvey Bullock seems like he is GOTHAM's (way less powerful) Robert Baratheon, Fish Mooney is clearly GOTHAM's Cersei Lannister, Don Falcone is GOTHAM's Tywin Lannister, Selina Kyle is GOTHAM's Daenerys Targaryen, and Bruce Wayne is GOTHAM's Jon Snow.  OK, fine, reading way too much into this.

And next week's preview ...

Bruce: "Alfred, can you teach me to fight?"

Alfred: "Yes, I can."

----------


## Kid A

> Eh, I really don't like these kinds of things where the villain says, "It was part of my plan all along!"
> 
> The Dark Knight was this and that is partly why I didn't like it that much.


Yeah the writing was ridiculously cliche; I had to roll my eyes. Such a volatile plan with so many variables and it just happened to work out that way. 

I was defending this show earlier today because I was really impressed with last week's episode, but this one...oof.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Very entertaining episode tonight.  Penguin continues to soar higher and higher on this show.  To borrow a GAME OF THRONES analogy, the Penguin is GOTHAM's Littlefinger.  Taking that bit further than necessary ... Jim Gordon is GOTHAM's Ned Stark, Harvey Bullock seems like he is GOTHAM's (way less powerful) Robert Baratheon, Fish Mooney is clearly GOTHAM's Cersei Lannister, Don Falcone is GOTHAM's Tywin Lannister, Selina Kyle is GOTHAM's Daenerys Targaryen, and Bruce Wayne is GOTHAM's Jon Snow.  OK, fine, reading way too much into this.
> 
> And next week's preview ...
> 
> Bruce: "Alfred, can you teach me to fight?"
> 
> Alfred: "Yes, I can."


I wouldn't go as far as saying Bullock is Robert in niche (he is close in personality and getting corrupt, though), but with every episode it sounds more like Gotham is taking its cues from GoT.

I think it's about time to introduce other players. I think Thorne would be a great addition, but there's also Professor Strange, Zucco, Moxon and Black Mask.




> Yeah the writing was ridiculously cliche; I had to roll my eyes. Such a volatile plan with so many variables and it just happened to work out that way. 
> 
> I was defending this show earlier today because I was really impressed with last week's episode, but this one...oof.


I'd agree to somewhat cliché. I'd have liked to leave it at Falcone greeting the Penguin and telling him Gordon is safe and the flashback as the cold open of another episode. 

For the record, I don't think that was a plan, just Penguin playing the hell out of the hand that he had. A lot like House of Cards in that schemes don't get Frank exactly where he expects, but help him to weave in that direction.

I thought last week episode was inferior to the previous and this one got the show back on track.

----------


## Pinsir

> I'd agree to somewhat cliché. I'd have liked to leave it at Falcone greeting the Penguin and telling him Gordon is safe and the flashback as the cold open of another episode. 
> 
> For the record, I don't think that was a plan, just Penguin playing the hell out of the hand that he had. A lot like House of Cards in that schemes don't get Frank exactly where he expects, but help him to weave in that direction.


My problem is that supposedly during the first episode Penguin was somehow able to predict his career path. If he had just said, "Pick Gordon and if he lets me live, I'll serve you," that would be fine. Yet he outlines exactly what he is going to do, and it all happens. It isn't realistic for characters to behave like they're omniscient. 

It just is not impressive when a character is written like this, and I partly blame the Dark Knight for popularizing the 'always one step ahead' villain trope. It is so common now a lot of villains are like this and it is somewhat expected of them to be like this. Plans need to be changed, put on hold and so on.

----------


## Randumbz

Barbara is such an idiot. This episode was so freaking ridiculous. Why would she think that a mob boss could be convinced to give up a grudge? Didn't she stop and think about the fact that she could be used as bait for Gordon? I don't know what Gordon sees in her.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Barbara is proving why Gordon will inevitably end up cheating on her
Shame when she finally gets something to do she drops the ball so hard

----------


## neonrideraryeh

I'm glad Montoya is finally on Team Gordon.  It's good that he has more allies.  I liked the rescue scene.

Also yes, Barbara was really stupid.  I want to root for their relationship because I want her daughter to be born at some point, but her actions are making it difficult to.

----------


## DurararaFTW

To be fair Gordon was gonna purposefully get his ass killed, even Bruce could see that clear as day. She did the only thing she could to save him, and it worked.

----------


## Agent Z

> My problem is that supposedly during the first episode Penguin was somehow able to predict his career path. If he had just said, "Pick Gordon and if he lets me live, I'll serve you," that would be fine. Yet he outlines exactly what he is going to do, and it all happens. It isn't realistic for characters to behave like they're omniscient. 
> 
> *It just is not impressive when a character is written like this, and I partly blame the Dark Knight for popularizing the 'always one step ahead' villain trope. It is so common now a lot of villains are like this and it is somewhat expected of them to be like this. Plans need to be changed, put on hold and so on.*


This trope has been in fiction long before the Dark Knight was released. David Xanatos (Gargoyles) and Sosuke Aizen (Bleach) are two examples of villains being 1 or more steps ahead of the heroes that predate the Nolan Trilogy.

----------


## SXVA

Another fantastic, riveting episode.

"Honk Honk" and Maroni's reaction to it was the highlight dialogue that had me cracking up imo.. First time all series it wasn't Bullock.

That and Niko's response to Falcone watching the girl do chores, "That's weird!... but... if that's what he's into..." 

"The most dangerous person is a honest one"  was great in combination with the display of the cops being commanded to leave the room showing that the police wasn't in change.

I love how Gotham is set up as up being down, light is dark, wrong is right, the quirkiness, the madness, and the extreme contrast of it as well, etc... it really sets the stage for Batman's genesis, this... mad "Gotham thing" being the womb in which Batman is born.

Nice to see Montoya and Crispus being redeemed from some of their earlier portrayals, it felt like when Gordon was telling young Bruce he could trust them, they were good Detectives that he was also speaking to the audience who might have been doubting them.

Gordon with nothing to lose ready to go down fighting, and then doomed Bullock joining him with the girl he brought was fabulous.

Fish was good, could feel the anger she had for Penguin.. she wanted to choke the life out of him but had to keep herself disciplined. Thought it was one of the character's better showings.

Penguin was great as always, young Bruce and Alfred also... liked how Alfred had the Detective down.

I'm conflicted in how Barbara was portrayed... my initial reaction was of disbelief in how stupid she was but i'm not so sure after thinking about it, seeing as Falcone is a reasonable leader but it could've ended up terribly and i'm not sure it was a good move on her part, i don't know.. it's difficult to say but it's probably not something she should try again.

The only negative beyond certain chacter's like Nygma and Catgirl being absent was Gordon's boss, how she was portrayed seemed ridiculous for a person in her position it was more like she was a girl scout leader or something, i can't imagine a Female fighting her way to that position in a typically all male environment would be that nice and upbeat.. not blaming the actress as she has a certain charisma but the character's not coming across very well as a person fitting that particular position in a regular series let alone an insane one like Gotham.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> To be fair Gordon was gonna purposefully get his ass killed, even Bruce could see that clear as day. She did the only thing she could to save him, and it worked.


Yep. I don't see anything stupid regarding her actions. Now, if Gordon actually had a reasonable chance to survive this on his own, then that would be a different story.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This trope has been in fiction long before the Dark Knight was released. David Xanatos (Gargoyles) and Sosuke Aizen (Bleach) are two examples of villains being 1 or more steps ahead of the heroes that predate the Nolan Trilogy.


Wasn't Fu Manchu doing this a century ago?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

any ideas who the guy with the Black Demon Mask was in the preview for next week's episode? it's most likely an original character although there are some people saying it's confirmed to be black mask....but I'd wanna know what's with the Oni Mask?

----------


## brucekent12

IMHO it was a great episode. The best one yet!

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't know what Gordon sees in her.


You mean other than her leggy gorgeousness and penthouse?  :Wink:

----------


## The Batlord

Banging a fat hooker in your friend's bed is my new favorite form of revenge.

----------


## Pinsir

> This trope has been in fiction long before the Dark Knight was released. David Xanatos (Gargoyles) and Sosuke Aizen (Bleach) are two examples of villains being 1 or more steps ahead of the heroes that predate the Nolan Trilogy.



Well I did say 'popularize.' I'm sure it did exist before, but now it is such a popular trope. Even then I am willing to assume that before many of these people were superhuman to some extant. The Joker and Penguin are suppose to be regular people.

A good example of how to do this archtype properly is Deathstroke from Arrow. He has a master plan, but as he tries to fulfill it he endures set backs, successes, and changes his plan as things develop.

----------


## SXVA

Pretty sure they were going for a Keyser Soze thing with the Penguin there.

Although, in real life he would've been doomed... the Mafia, or any of the various gangs and cartels and crime groups doesn't tolerate a rat under any circumstances no way he would've been allowed safety.. and if it came out Falcone or Maroni was supporting a rat they would be done for.

...but it's not real life... so different rules, variables and perspectives are applied.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Well I did say 'popularize.' I'm sure it did exist before, but now it is such a popular trope. Even then I am willing to assume that before many of these people were superhuman to some extant. The Joker and Penguin are suppose to be regular people.
> 
> A good example of how to do this archtype properly is Deathstroke from Arrow. He has a master plan, but as he tries to fulfill it he endures set backs, successes, and changes his plan as things develop.


I hope Bruce will be Penguin's big unexpected setback in someway.

----------


## Agent Z

> I hope Bruce will be Penguin's big unexpected setback in someway.


Given he becomes Batman in the future, that could be enough of a setback.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Given he becomes Batman in the future, that could be enough of a setback.


If by that you mean, he won't do something on the actual show, then no, it isn't.

----------


## ispacehead

This was the best episode yet I thought. 

I'm enjoying this show so much that I don't even want to watch commercials anymore. (I've actually only watched a couple of em anyway...I hate spoilers.)

LOVED that Alfred got the drop on Allen the way he did.

Once again, Gordon sets a precedence for Batman by going to what seemed to be his certain death, with 2 bullet wounds. I love what they're doing with him and Bruce and the obvious affect that he has on the young lad.

I have zero complaints about this episode. Even the characters that I didn't particularly care for in other episodes were wonderful.

Can't wait for next week.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> If by that you mean, he won't do something on the actual show, then no, it isn't.


There's no way the Penguin's plan goes off without a hitch. It's just too perfect. Something's going down, he's juggling way to much to not drop one.




> David Xanatos (Gargoyles) and Sosuke Aizen (Bleach) are two examples of villains being 1 or more steps ahead of the heroes that predate the Nolan Trilogy.


Over in the Young Justice threads we used to talk about how The Light had a Xanatos Gambit going each week. 
Considering Batman defeated the bad guys in the Nolan movies, I wouldn't really say it was so prevalent there.

FIY Gotham's ratings were up last night
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/04/gotham-ratings-rise/

----------


## ispacehead

> FIY Gotham's ratings were up last night
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/04/gotham-ratings-rise/


9% spike!!!

Nice.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Let me amend my GOTHAM / GAME OF THRONES analogy ...

Jim Gordon = Stern, honorable, capable war hero who doesn't know who to trust = Ned Stark

Harvey Bullock = Once eager, now corrupt and angry drunk who likes his whores = Robert Baratheon

Fish Mooney = Calculating, scheming, ruthless woman with secrets to hide = Cersei Lannister

Oswald Cobblepot = Intelligent, witty "grotesque" person who doesn't seem harmful at first = Tyrion Lannister/Petyr Baelish hybrid

Don Falcone = Older, wise, gravitas-laden, true master of the realm = Tywin Lannister

Victor Zsasz = Cruel sociopathic murderer = Ramsey Snow (Bolton)  

Selina Kyle = Young woman whose future will heavily feature a predatory animal theme = Daenerys Targaryen

Bruce Wayne = Young man from a stately manor with murdered parents whose future involves wearing lots of black = Jon Snow

Barbara Keane = Wet blanket, nag, audience's least favorite, future demise anticipated by many = Catelyn Stark

----------


## Nick Miller

> She's also muy caliente.  Out-of-this-world gorgeous, even.



haha, no doubt about that, i have to avert my gaze, she is staring-into-the-sun HOT

the best scene was with Nigma and Kringle

----------


## ispacehead

> Let me amend my GOTHAM / GAME OF THRONES analogy ...
> 
> Barbara Keane = Wet blanket, nag, audience's least favorite, future demise anticipated by many = Catelyn Stark


I don't watch GOT, but as this episode concreted the bond between her and Gordon, I don't see her going anywhere. 

While she hasn't been a favorite of mine in earlier episodes, I thought this was her best episode as a performer.




> You mean other than her leggy gorgeousness and penthouse?


Hello? 

Right?

Yugga yugga.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Bruce Wayne = Young man from a stately manor with murdered parents whose future involves wearing lots of black = Jon Snow


Bruce is more of a Bran Stark given his relative youth and his confinement to his manor far away from all the action. (Alfred being Rodrik and Luwin combined)

----------


## godisawesome

> Pretty sure they were going for a Keyser Soze thing with the Penguin there.
> 
> Although, in real life he would've been doomed... the Mafia, or any of the various gangs and cartels and crime groups doesn't tolerate a rat under any circumstances no way he would've been allowed safety.. and if it came out Falcone or Maroni was supporting a rat they would be done for.
> 
> ...but it's not real life... so different rules, variables and perspectives are applied.


I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the "mafia code" so popular in pop culture is hogwash at a certain level, and more than a few powerful criminals have sold out rivals and enemies. And at least around Kansas City, a newspaper article implied that the "snitches get stitches" mantra is still applied mostly as a threat to civilian witnesses as opposed to some rule followed by everyone. The phrase, to borrow an expression from Captain Barbossa, is more like a guideline than an actual rule. The biggest inaccuracy to Oswald's rise is the lack of trust you could place on him, but they've built Maroni as being arrogant enough to think he's okay, and Falcone being the even more savvy shark plays very well.

No honor among thieves (thank you, Oswald) seems a far more reliable rule, especially in the land of fiction; it reminds me of the Departed and Jack Nicholson's mob boss.

And if we're comparing Bruce to Jon Snow, does that make Selina Kyle some kind of Ygritte? Because a future episode has Bruce and her running around Gotham and away from some assassins. 

And no, that's not actually Black Mask. It's his father.

----------


## Tupiaz

I'm the only one thinking the show wanted to hint at Anarky with Falcone's speech about that Gotham needs law and order? All the rats when Gordon woke up made me think they could do something with the rat Catcher in the future. It can of course just be teasers. 




> I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the "mafia code" so popular in pop culture is hogwash at a certain level, and more than a few powerful criminals have sold out rivals and enemies. And at least around Kansas City, a newspaper article implied that the "snitches get stitches" mantra is still applied mostly as a threat to civilian witnesses as opposed to some rule followed by everyone. The phrase, to borrow an expression from Captain Barbossa, is more like a guideline than an actual rule. The biggest inaccuracy to Oswald's rise is the lack of trust you could place on him, but they've built Maroni as being arrogant enough to think he's okay, and Falcone being the even more savvy shark plays very well.
> 
> No honor among thieves (thank you, Oswald) seems a far more reliable rule, especially in the land of fiction; it reminds me of the Departed and Jack Nicholson's mob boss.
> 
> And if we're comparing Bruce to Jon Snow, does that make Selina Kyle some kind of Ygritte? Because a future episode has Bruce and her running around Gotham and away from some assassins. 
> 
> And no, that's not actually Black Mask. It's his father.


The question is if you see criminals/mobsters as thieves. To switch sides in organised crime is not a popular move (but has been seen several times) and people involved in organised crime rarely snitch to the police. Snitching about your old employer to a new, well that is just business and insider information. 




> Well I did say 'popularize.' I'm sure it did exist before, but now it is such a popular trope. Even then I am willing to assume that before many of these people were superhuman to some extant. The Joker and Penguin are suppose to be regular people.
> 
> A good example of how to do this archtype properly is Deathstroke from Arrow. He has a master plan, but as he tries to fulfill it he endures set backs, successes, and changes his plan as things develop.


It is nothing new and has been done in movies, comics, literature long before the Nolan movie.




> Nice to see Montoya and Crispus being redeemed from some of their earlier portrayals, it felt like when Gordon was telling young Bruce he could trust them, they were good Detectives that he was also speaking to the audience who might have been doubting them.
> 
> The only negative beyond certain chacter's like Nygma and Catgirl being absent was Gordon's boss, how she was portrayed seemed ridiculous for a person in her position it was more like she was a girl scout leader or something, i can't imagine a Female fighting her way to that position in a typically all male environment would be that nice and upbeat.. not blaming the actress as she has a certain charisma but the character's not coming across very well as a person fitting that particular position in a regular series let alone an insane one like Gotham.


The whole thing with "go boss I can handle it" (or whatever Gordon said) was pretty weak. Would a boss just leave one of her employees like that? If he/she did they wouldn't be trusted.

People have been way to fast on jumping to conclusions about Montoya and Allen and haven't been able/willing to see the problem for their perspective. Gordon is faking a killing everybody is thinking Penguin is dead and that it was done by Gordon. What are they supposed to do? Don't arrest him for because he is a cop? They don't know him or his values and only knows he works with Bullock who is know for being a crooked cop. 




> Yeah the writing was ridiculously cliche; I had to roll my eyes. Such a volatile plan with so many variables and it just happened to work out that way. 
> 
> I was defending this show earlier today because I was really impressed with last week's episode, but this one...oof.


The point is that Falcone had nothing to loose woth the deal. If Penguin had died at the time Gordon would had been on the team which would have been great to. He would have won either way.  People taking new sides in organised crime is nothing new and has happened on multiple occasions. 




> This was a really good episode
> So much happened in one hour. We got Montoya's redemption,Penguin finally played his hand and revealed to the viewer how he's manipulating everyone,Falcone now knows about fish's lack of loyalty, Gordon and Bullock grow closer.
> This show needs to be like this all the time and not just when the plot needs to move forward.


You can have episodes like this all the time since you have to build up for it. However this was by far the best episode so far.

----------


## ABH

A little late, but did you guys see Ben McKenzie's Halloween costume? 


https://twitter.com/AwardShowUpdate/...16443936038912

----------


## SXVA

> I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the "mafia code" so popular in pop culture is hogwash at a certain level, and more than a few powerful criminals have sold out rivals and enemies. And at least around Kansas City, a newspaper article implied that the "snitches get stitches" mantra is still applied mostly as a threat to civilian witnesses as opposed to some rule followed by everyone. The phrase, to borrow an expression from Captain Barbossa, is more like a guideline than an actual rule. The biggest inaccuracy to Oswald's rise is the lack of trust you could place on him, but they've built Maroni as being arrogant enough to think he's okay, and Falcone being the even more savvy shark plays very well.
> 
> No honor among thieves (thank you, Oswald) seems a far more reliable rule, especially in the land of fiction; it reminds me of the Departed and Jack Nicholson's mob boss.
> 
> And if we're comparing Bruce to Jon Snow, does that make Selina Kyle some kind of Ygritte? Because a future episode has Bruce and her running around Gotham and away from some assassins. 
> 
> And no, that's not actually Black Mask. It's his father.


'Tis not a code exclusive to the Mafia really, it's a code of the streets... applying to any number of crime groups or people living that life.

The part of him switching sides, or betraying one side and going to another isn't the rat part... it's him ratting to the police and being an informant for the police that makes him a rat.

----------


## ispacehead

> A little late, but did you guys see Ben McKenzie's Halloween costume?


= Awesome.

----------


## nepenthes

Has this guy appeared on the show yet? Nice story - I hope he gets more than 5 lines!

----------


## PretenderNX01

> The whole thing with "go boss I can handle it" (or whatever Gordon said) was pretty weak. Would a boss just leave one of her employees like that? If he/she did they wouldn't be trusted.


She's got a family and she knows they'll go after them is she sticks her neck out too far. It's not the cops who are in danger, Falcone's goon chained a bunch of nuns up to send a message to Maroni. They went to Jim's house to get Barbara. 

Essen believes like Gordon but is afraid if the consequences, hence most superheroes don't have families in comics. No one to be collateral damage.




> A little late, but did you guys see Ben McKenzie's Halloween costume?


That is cool.  :Cool: 

edit:



> Has this guy appeared on the show yet? Nice story - I hope he gets more than 5 lines!


Yeah, he's the one who had the stack of pre-signed warrants in his desk.

I didn't know the character but he's in the comics:
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Carlos_Alvarez
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Carlos_Alvarez_(Prime_Earth)

----------


## Tupiaz

> She's got a family and she knows they'll go after them is she sticks her neck out too far. It's not the cops who are in danger, Falcone's goon chained a bunch of nuns up to send a message to Maroni. They went to Jim's house to get Barbara. 
> 
> Essen believes like Gordon but is afraid if the consequences, hence most superheroes don't have families in comics. No one to be collateral damage.


I know she cared about her family she just told us in the scene before it doesn't change the fact that if a assassin came in to a police station and asked everybody to go and they do including the boss is ridiculous. The entire station should be fired after words for not doing their job. She is not shown as a leader but a dog with its tail between its leg.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I know she cared about her family she just told us in the scene before it doesn't change the fact that if a assassin came in to a police station and asked everybody to go and they do including the boss is ridiculous. The entire station should be fired after words for not doing their job. She is not shown as a leader but a dog with its tail between its leg.


If this was a normal city, I would agree, but Gotham City is not in any way normal.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Wow, Babara's actor is awful. 
Fish is still alive?!!? Ffs. Penguin just stab her already. There is no point to her being alive anymore. 

Again pointless Bruce Wayne screen time.

Having said all that. Victor was awesome. Pengy was awesome. Jim was awesome.  Bullock was awesome. Best episode yet, though they still have a few kicks to sort out but I am happy. I was against the idea of this show but it has been good, and I like where it is heading. 

Just cast better female actors in the future please. They're all awful atm.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I know she cared about her family she just told us in the scene before it doesn't change the fact that if a assassin came in to a police station and asked everybody to go and they do including the boss is ridiculous. The entire station should be fired after words for not doing their job. She is not shown as a leader but a dog with its tail between its leg.


I didn't say she was a good leader.  :Stick Out Tongue:  
This just shows the level of corruption and fear Gotham is dealing with. Everyone there was shocked Jim Gordon showed up for work because they would have run away if they had been in his place (and then they do)

----------


## GlennSimpson

> I know she cared about her family she just told us in the scene before it doesn't change the fact that if a assassin came in to a police station and asked everybody to go and they do including the boss is ridiculous. The entire station should be fired after words for not doing their job. She is not shown as a leader but a dog with its tail between its leg.


She's not a very good leader.  She's a cop in Gotham.  Other than Gordon,  none of the cops in Gotham are very good.  That's kinda the whole point to Gotham.

Note that in about 12-15 years, the cops in Gotham will allow a vigilante to virtually do their job for them.

----------


## Red_11

> I know she cared about her family she just told us in the scene before it doesn't change the fact that if a assassin came in to a police station and asked everybody to go and they do including the boss is ridiculous. The entire station should be fired after words for not doing their job. She is not shown as a leader but a dog with its tail between its leg.


Yeah, that scene was ridiculous even by comic book standards.  Hell, in Gotham Central the cops shot the hell out of the Joker (who's in-arguably way more dangerous than Zsasz) in the station when he tried to pull something.  I understand cops being corrupt, lazy or just plain bad at their jobs, but really the _whole_ station walks out?  Also what was up with the Zsaszettes?  I always pictured Victor as a loner and not one to attract followers.




> Wow, Babara's actor is awful.


Her scenes are painful to watch.  I was begging for her to get killed by Victor.  The quicker she turns into a drunk and moves away the better off the show will be.





> Again pointless Bruce Wayne screen time.


I tend to agree.  While I think the actors playing Bruce and Alfred are doing a great job, Bruce is the pretty much the least interesting character in the show.  We all know how his story ends up.




> Best episode yet...


Nah, I liked the previous episode far more.  I still feel this show is extremely uneven in terms of tone, pacing and quality of writing

----------


## Tupiaz

> I didn't say she was a good leader.  
> This just shows the level of corruption and fear Gotham is dealing with. Everyone there was shocked Jim Gordon showed up for work because they would have run away if they had been in his place (and then they do)


I get the idea I just think the execution is horrible. Bribes are supposed to be unknown to work. It would have work better if some corrupt police men tried to arrest him, go for his apartment or beeing chased at the street. There is so many possibilities but this. Besides Victor Zsasz being a assassin wasn't something I was a fan of either (and I don't care much for the character to begin with).




> If this was a normal city, I would agree, but Gotham City is not in any way normal.


The problem I have with the whole scene is that it makes no sense besides making an action scene. Falcone wants law and order and not anarchy then why on earth do he wants to create anarchy at a police station of all places. 




> She's not a very good leader.  She's a cop in Gotham.  Other than Gordon,  none of the cops in Gotham are very good.  That's kinda the whole point to Gotham.
> 
> Note that in about 12-15 years, the cops in Gotham will allow a vigilante to virtually do their job for them.


She has actually been showcased as a leader which cares earlier in the show. She had her grey area moments with the whole "Look Gordon I can't make you break the Law but this is Gotham" speech. So has Montoya and Allen. I had always found the level security of Gotham to be a problem. Because it also has to be a place where people make (legal) money like saes or stock market something in that area. If it wasn't then people would have to leave like people have left Detroit.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah, that scene was ridiculous even by comic book standards.  Hell, in Gotham Central the cops shot the hell out of the Joker (who's in-arguably way more dangerous than Zsasz) in the station when he tried to pull something.  I understand cops being corrupt, lazy or just plain bad at their jobs, but really the _whole_ station walks out?


The difference is _Gotham Central_  had Commissioner Gordon, while _Gotham_ doesn't have Jim Gordon in that position yet. Again, you can't compare Gotham City at this point with any realistic city, because it's not supposed to be that way.




> The problem I have with the whole scene is that it makes no sense besides making an action scene. Falcone wants law and order and not anarchy then why on earth do he wants to create anarchy at a police station of all places.


The GCPD, either directly or indirectly, are in Falcone's hip pocket. That scene was a way to maintain that hegemony. Also, Falcone was referring to citizens of Gotham as a whole, not his "employees."

----------


## The Batlord

As other people have said, this series has an uneven tone, and I think the scene with Zsasz in the police station was a glaring example of this. Much of this show is a relatively realistic police procedural, and the interaction of the police has always been treated in a non-comic book way, but now all of a sudden you have Victor Zsasz walking in with the Matrix Twins and stepping all over that dynamic. It's just jarring. Other than that scene I loved this episode, but that was definitely a misstep. They're still clearly trying to figure out to mix CSI and comic books.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Did anyone else notice the flash of authority in young Bruce's voice when he said "Explain." to Jim Gordon?  My eyes saw the 13-year-old, but my ears heard the voice of the future Batman.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Did anyone else notice the flash of authority in young Bruce's voice when he said "Explain." to Jim Gordon?  My eyes saw the 13-year-old, but my ears heard the voice of the future Batman.


Yep and it was intentional.

----------


## Tupiaz

> The GCPD, either directly or indirectly, are in Falcone's hip pocket. That scene was a way to maintain that hegemony. Also, Falcone was referring to citizens of Gotham as a whole, not his "employees."


However bribes works best when they are unknown are the well known then they don't work so well.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> However bribes works best when they are unknown are the well known then they don't work so well.


True, but Falcone was worrying about that since he wasn't doing this publicly.

----------


## Red_11

> The difference is _Gotham Central_  had Commissioner Gordon, while _Gotham_ doesn't have Jim Gordon in that position yet. Again, you can't compare Gotham City at this point with any realistic city, because it's not supposed to be that way.


Good point.  I didn't think of that.  

But still, realistic or not, the show has to have some grounding in reality or it loses all credibility.  I mean c'mon, _every_ cop is in Falcone's pocket, or afraid of him?  I find that hard to believe.  It breaks my suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the show.  The point where that happens is different for everyone though.  For me at least the show's inconsistent tone is one of the major problems that I have with it.

----------


## Imraith Nimphais

For someone who has never ever been interested in the Batbooks (love the animated films, series and movies) I LOVE this Show! Cobblepot was WICKED in this last episode.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

not sure what to think about next week's episode....Alfred teaching bruce how to fight and black mask's daddy shows up to cause some trouble...plus more fish mooney/penguin interaction and bullock deciding that being the hero and risking your life isn't as great as being the stooge in falcone's pocket that gets to live

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I mean c'mon, _every_ cop is in Falcone's pocket, or afraid of him?  I find that hard to believe.  It breaks my suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the show.  The point where that happens is different for everyone though.  For me at least the show's inconsistent tone is one of the major problems that I have with it.


Watch some old noir gangster movies or read up on the corruption during Capone's time in Chicago. Yeah, I think a lot of cops can be scared of one guy or several. I don't feel it's that out of line for the tone Gotham has established, it's very pulp-comic.  All of it really.

Over in the TV forum, Jack Flagg was pointing out how the corruption in Miami due to drugs was similar and the druglords in Mexico.

----------


## ispacehead

> I mean c'mon, _every_ cop is in Falcone's pocket, or afraid of him?  I find that hard to believe.


Not that different from Gotham PD's depiction in Year One really.

It's just become SOP to stay out of Falcone's way. Or else.

I did think it was a bit much to brazenly walk into the police station, but the way Zsasz simply dismissed the entire staff made the scene work for me. 

I thought it played out nicely. Perfect blend of reality and comic book fantasy.

I was relieved that the bullet dodging thing didn't go on for more than a second. The commercial had me worried about that.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I get the idea I just think the execution is horrible. Bribes are supposed to be unknown to work.


If one is worried about secrets but Falcone owns them and they all know it. I'd bet even the people of Gotham know it, we know our politicians are owned by oil but we feign surprise by it.




> Falcone wants law and order and not anarchy then why on earth do he wants to create anarchy at a police station of all places.


He didn't. He wanted Jim to go quietly but Jim didn't want to play by Falcone's rules so things got messy.




> She has actually been showcased as a leader which cares earlier in the show. She had her grey area moments with the whole "Look Gordon I can't make you break the Law but this is Gotham" speech. So has Montoya and Allen. I had always found the level security of Gotham to be a problem. Because it also has to be a place where people make (legal) money like saes or stock market something in that area. If it wasn't then people would have to leave like people have left Detroit.


She cares but she's helpless. Or she has grown to think she's helpless but James may be showing her she isn't. She thought she should stay but he told her not to and she took him up on that offer. She may decide differently next time. 

FYI plenty of people still live in Detroit. It's not that easy to up and leave even when the water's shut off. Gotham doesn't seem to have much industry other than crime.  :Stick Out Tongue:  It sure doesn't look like a happy. healthy city. Burton's vision was Hell erupted through the earth and kept going. It's kind of like that here.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Best episode yet. Hopefully we see more Zsasz soon.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

i just realized why i like Gotham More Than Arrow At Least(Still Don't know why i fell out of Shield)...it's because arrow is often filled with too much angst and whiny after school special style drama than i can handle

----------


## Kid A

> As other people have said, this series has an uneven tone, and I think the scene with Zsasz in the police station was a glaring example of this. Much of this show is a relatively realistic police procedural, and the interaction of the police has always been treated in a non-comic book way, but now all of a sudden you have Victor Zsasz walking in with the Matrix Twins and stepping all over that dynamic. It's just jarring. Other than that scene I loved this episode, but that was definitely a misstep. They're still clearly trying to figure out to mix CSI and comic books.


I think the show started out this way, but now I think it's clear they're actively trying to avoid any comparisons to CSI or Law and Order, and embracing the surreal absurdity of Gotham.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Zsazz is really quirky in this show. I like him more as a mob enforcer than a serial killer. Although his two female flunkies reminds me of something out of adam west batman.

----------


## The Batlord

> I think the show started out this way, but now I think it's clear they're actively trying to avoid any comparisons to CSI or Law and Order, and embracing the surreal absurdity of Gotham.


I hope so. I've been tired of police procedurals for years, and Gotham was only passingly good at it to boot. How they're going to square the more serious tone that they've already developed for much of the show and actually make it work with the comic book stuff has me worried, but I tend to give shows the benefit of the doubt so long as it doesn't start to feel like a chore to watch something.




> Zsazz is really quirky in this show. I like him more as a mob enforcer than a serial killer. Although his two female flunkies reminds me of something out of adam west batman.


I'm only familiar with him from the Arkham games, but he just felt like a cheesy holdover from the 90s. Just self-consciously controversial and gritty, but without anything else to make him a worthwhile character. Not sure I give a shit about him now, but he can only improve as far as I'm concerned.

----------


## Imraith Nimphais

> I think the show started out this way, but now I think it's clear they're actively trying to avoid any comparisons to CSI or Law and Order, and *embracing the surreal absurdity of Gotham.*


This is one of the reasons why I enjoy it so very much.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> This is one of the reasons why I enjoy it so very much.


it's funny you look at gotham and you see people trying to have fun with the fact that this is a comic book world...then you look at something like Arrow and it's like every moment has to be full of tears or angst and anger

----------


## heyevaxx

> Zsazz is really quirky in this show. I like him more as a mob enforcer than a serial killer. Although his two female flunkies reminds me of something out of adam west batman.


The only very mild negative for me in the last episode was Zsasz having 2 new wave thugs.

If Zsasz is so terrifying and has so much gravitas that he can walk into police HQ and simply order everyone out, there's no need for him to have 2 goons.

I think the writers wanted him to have extra help so during the firefights it would be more even.

But my Monday morning quarterbacking would have Zsasz come in solo and when the shooting began, he'd pull 2 pistols and fight ala John Woo in the Gun Fu style. And when Zsasz ran out of ammo he'd pull 2 more pistols revealing that he had lots of them under his coat. Oh well, new flunkies won out.

I don't mind a bit about him using guns instead of knives - it's a concession to the format and how the writers need to use the character.

And Anthony Carrigan was great with his twitchy, goofy, creepy, unsettling interpretation of Zsasz - I love it!

The rest of the episode was excellent and had me on the edge of my seat: reveal after reveal, tense situations, stand offs, rescues, Harv almost murdering Jim then showing up at Jim's drunk with a lady of the night. Harv is awesome.

The redemption of Renee and Cris was nice - they're finally on the team. Sadly, no Selina and I don't think she's in the episode 8 previews though she is in episode 9.

----------


## EdwardNigma

My only problem was Gordon telling Bruce that Montoya and Allen are "good" cops. They aren't corrupt but they are the two most idiotic cops on force.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> My only problem was Gordon telling Bruce that Montoya and Allen are "good" cops. They aren't corrupt but they are the two most idiotic cops on force.


i think he had no choice but to trust them that much....only because he's now let everyone know that he's the rogue the wild cat wanting to break loose from the pack and serve real justice....everyone else was ready to serve him up on a silver platter for Falcone when Victor Z. came calling

Bullock is a huge question mark and someone that gordon can't afford to have too close to him in situations like this....

true montoya and allen are stupid idiot cops(montoya being driven purely by her hornyness and allen just rolling with her decisions)but they are the only ones that actually came to his rescue

----------


## The Batlord

> true montoya and allen are stupid idiot cops(montoya being driven purely by her hornyness and allen just rolling with her decisions)but they are the only ones that actually came to his rescue


If she were motivated entirely by her horniness, then why did she put her life at risk to save Gordon when just about every other cop in Gotham sold him out? Maybe, she's actually a good, honest cop?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> If she were motivated entirely by her horniness, then why did she put her life at risk to save Gordon when just about every other cop in Gotham sold him out? Maybe, she's actually a good, honest cop?


because barbara cares about jim and she's doing what's best for barbara she wasn't doing it to do the right thing  she was doing it just so she could say she did a nice thing for barbara and maybe get some...

----------


## The Batlord

> because barbara cares about jim and she's doing what's best for barbara she wasn't doing it to do the right thing  she was doing it just so she could say she did a nice thing for barbara and maybe get some...


Where did you get that from? Why would she then admit to Gordon that she let her feelings for Barbara influence her? The most logical conclusion is that she felt guilty about accusing an innocent man and decided to come clean because she has integrity.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Where did you get that from? Why would she then admit to Gordon that she let her feelings for Barbara influence her? The most logical conclusion is that she felt guilty about accusing an innocent man and decided to come clean because she has integrity.


And?.....she's not really proved that her feelings aren't still motivating her

----------


## signalman112

> Zsazz is really quirky in this show. I like him more as a mob enforcer than a serial killer. Although his two female flunkies reminds me of something out of adam west batman.


The crooked babes recall Two-Face's Dolls from BATMAN FOREVER, Sugar & Spice.

Penguin continues to be the BEST part about this series. Although the body count is getting rather high.

----------


## The Batlord

> And?.....she's not really proved that her feelings aren't still motivating her


Part of her motivation, but I see absolutely no indication that it's her entire, or even her primary motivation. Just because her judgement is clouded does not mean that she doesn't have _any_ judgement.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Part of her motivation, but I see absolutely no indication that it's her entire, or even her primary motivation. Just because her judgement is clouded does not mean that she doesn't have _any_ judgement.


you can't turn Rene Montoya into a likable character in just one episode and have everyone believe she's truly sorry for what she did.....i can't think of a character that fans of gotham hate more than Rene Montoya other than barbara(and that's only because Barbara seems to have no clear focus or purpose)

----------


## Tupiaz

> If one is worried about secrets but Falcone owns them and they all know it. I'd bet even the people of Gotham know it, we know our politicians are owned by oil but we feign surprise by it.
> 
> 
> He didn't. He wanted Jim to go quietly but Jim didn't want to play by Falcone's rules so things got messy.
> 
> 
> She cares but she's helpless. Or she has grown to think she's helpless but James may be showing her she isn't. She thought she should stay but he told her not to and she took him up on that offer. She may decide differently next time. 
> 
> FYI plenty of people still live in Detroit. It's not that easy to up and leave even when the water's shut off. Gotham doesn't seem to have much industry other than crime.  It sure doesn't look like a happy. healthy city. Burton's vision was Hell erupted through the earth and kept going. It's kind of like that here.


My point is that Gotham needs some kind of industry to live by. A City can't have crime as the only income. Falcone said "to have organised crime you need law and order".




> True, but Falcone was worrying about that since he wasn't doing this publicly.


He sent Zsazs out there wide open in a police station of all places. That is not discreet.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> you can't turn Rene Montoya into a likable character in just one episode and have everyone believe she's truly sorry for what she did.....i can't think of a character that fans of gotham hate more than Rene Montoya other than barbara(and that's only because Barbara seems to have no clear focus or purpose)


Yep on the other boards people can't stand Montoya.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> He sent Zsazs out there wide open in a police station of all places. That is not discreet.


To Falcone, though, that's not a public place but a place he owns.

----------


## Tupiaz

> To Falcone, though, that's not a public place but a place he owns.


Whatever he owns or not doesn't make it less public. You think that people won't hear about 50 cops including the chief leaving a police station while shoots are being fired in the station because an assassin is on a rampage?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Whatever he owns or not doesn't make it less public. You think that people won't hear about 50 cops including the chief leaving a police station while shoots are being fired in the station because an assassin is on a rampage?


Nope, because it will be covered up. Again, don't compare it to a typical US city in reality. Gotham City makes the most corrupt city today look very tame.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Nope, because it will be covered up. Again, don't compare it to a typical US city in reality. Gotham City makes the most corrupt city today look very tame.


You can cover stuff like that up. People will hear it and see it It is happening right there in the city. You don' think people would see the police storm out of the door and hear shoots being fired everywhere? Strategy it makes zero sense to make such a public move.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> You can cover stuff like that up. People will hear it and see it It is happening right there in the city. You don' think people would see the police storm out of the door and hear shoots being fired everywhere? Strategy it makes zero sense to make such a public move.


But what is going to happen to Falcone? Nothing. He's not worried about being sent to prison, so he can afford to be more blatant than what we would see in reality.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

it's disappointing that robin lord taylor isn't nominated for the 2015 People's Choice awards...i know how far these things are done in advance  but I'm just assuming that nobody expected him to be as good as he has been in "Gotham"

----------


## blackbolt396

Best episode of Gotham yet, Penguin is without question a must see character.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

five preview clips for #8(The Mask)were  uploaded to the gotham youtube channel just an hour ago

----------


## Tupiaz

Clips for the next episode:



Gordon's boos seeks redemption, black mask is introduced, Bruce has his first fight (seems like Alfred wants to try him so he will not get hurt again) and lastly Penguin and Fish is still not friends. 




> But what is going to happen to Falcone? Nothing. He's not worried about being sent to prison, so he can afford to be more blatant than what we would see in reality.


Maybe not directly but indirectly it can hurt his business. Brides works best when people don't know who is behind or it is happening.

----------


## SXVA

> you can't turn Rene Montoya into a likable character in just one episode and have everyone believe she's truly sorry for what she did.....i can't think of a character that fans of gotham hate more than Rene Montoya other than barbara(and that's only because Barbara seems to have no clear focus or purpose)


Female characters always get the most outrageous hate in series, it's nothing new. Almost every series i've followed where there's been continued negative vocal expression about a character or characters, and i've followed many... it was Female characters. 

It's usually best to ignore it after a certain point imo. I don't really think it's a commentary on anything related to the actual series but more to do with the people. I mean, think about a series like Arrow where three seasons in and people are still expressing the same negativity and hate toward Laurel... i'm sure if Gotham lasts a while, these same people who take that approach with Montoya/Barbara/Fish will be doing it 2-3 seasons later even still.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Female characters always get the most outrageous hate in series, it's nothing new. Almost every series i've followed where there's been continued negative vocal expression about a character or characters, and i've followed many... it was Female characters. 
> 
> It's usually best to ignore it after a certain point imo. I don't really think it's a commentary on anything related to the actual series but more to do with the people. I mean, think about a series like Arrow where three seasons in and people are still expressing the same negativity and hate toward Laurel... i'm sure if Gotham lasts a while, these same people who take that approach with Montoya/Barbara/Fish will be doing it 2-3 seasons later even still.


Uh no that is not true at all. Look at your own avatar. People LOVE Scully on X files. There are just shows where people hate female characters just like they hate male characters. Feminists just like to complain when things don't go their way all the time.

----------


## SXVA

> Uh no that is not true at all. Look at your own avatar. People LOVE Scully on X files. There are just shows where people hate female characters just like they hate male characters. Feminists just like to complain when things don't go their way all the time.


That's not Scully, understandable mix up though. [and the girl in my avatar does get hate]

And you seemed to misinterpret what was said, it didn't say Female characters were automatically hated... it said, when there is an extreme expression as such directed toward characters... it's usually directed at Female characters.

X-Files isn't a good example as there wasn't much hate for characters [probably not being a coincidence in that it didn't have many Female characters] on X-Files except toward the end where the new Female agent definitely got some hate, and there was only the one main Female character overall in Scully until that time when the new agent. Gillian Anderson had 201 episodes credited to her where the next Female actor had 23.

I don't believe in absolutes so i wouldn't go as far to say "it's true" in contrast to your post, but i would say it's not false and to say that it's not true definitively [citing one example] when i've stated that i've followed many series is a bit dismissive of my experiences, but fair enough.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Renee and Barbara are written just like andrea was written in the walking dead. the one female character making ourageous life choices that we the omniscient viewer can see as stupid and unlikely to work out. From a writers perspective this makes the character seem flawed but its time they start thinking about how the viewer will respond to these things. More often then not it evokes anger and causes them to view the character as stupid.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> Female characters always get the most outrageous hate in series, it's nothing new. Almost every series i've followed where there's been continued negative vocal expression about a character or characters, and i've followed many... it was Female characters. 
> 
> It's usually best to ignore it after a certain point imo. I don't really think it's a commentary on anything related to the actual series but more to do with the people. I mean, think about a series like Arrow where three seasons in and people are still expressing the same negativity and hate toward Laurel... i'm sure if Gotham lasts a while, these same people who take that approach with Montoya/Barbara/Fish will be doing it 2-3 seasons later even still.


Strongly disagree on the female characters getting the hate.  If they do, then there is a reason for it.  For me, its all about how you present yourself.  Fans had such a strong reaction to female characters they soared as a result:

Xena:  Started out as a villain in Hercules.  She got her own series and arguably a larger fan-base.  

Harley Quinn:  Started out as Joker's airhead assistant in the animated series.  She's well known through the media now and her comic sales are taking out the heavy hitters.

Michonne:  Do I need to explain this one?  

Temperance "Bones" Brennan:  I put her on this list because even though her partner is FBI Agent played by David Boreanaz, she has a stronger presence.  I can see the show continuing without him, but not her.

Cassandra Cain:  One of my favorite all-time heroes.  Next to Bruce, she's my favorite in the Bat Family

As for this hate, if it it happens, there's a reason.  

- Montoya:  Do I really need to explain this one?  Before the last episode (hell, one episode doesn't redeem her in my books) she's by far the most unlikable character.  Holier than thou attitude but the reason why she went specifically after Gordon was because she wanted a piece of Barbara.  Even before the Cobblepot incident, she was all over Gordon when there were suspects far more likely of crimes than him.  Seriously, how the hell could anybody like Montoya?  

As for Barbara and Fish.  I strongly doubt its because they're female that fans have the problem with, its because if you compare them to the other cast members (Cobblepot, Alfred, Falcone, and Bullock are killing it) they lack substance.  Barbara, I personally don't mind her.  Not the brightest bulb in the box, but I agree with Falcone.  She's a good woman.  Fish, she has an impressive presence, but the two problems I have with this character is that I find her acting performance weaker compared to the other cast members and her story is by far the least interesting to me.

----------


## Hypestyle

When are Orpheus's parents going to get a glimpse?

----------


## SXVA

> Strongly disagree on the female characters getting the hate.  If they do, then there is a reason for it.  For me, its all about how you present yourself.  Fans had such a strong reaction to female characters they soared as a result:
> 
> Xena:  Started out as a villain in Hercules.  She got her own series and arguably a larger fan-base.  
> 
> Harley Quinn:  Started out as Joker's airhead assistant in the animated series.  She's well known through the media now and her comic sales are taking out the heavy hitters.
> 
> Michonne:  Do I need to explain this one?  
> 
> Temperance "Bones" Brennan:  I put her on this list because even though her partner is FBI Agent played by David Boreanaz, she has a stronger presence.  I can see the show continuing without him, but not her.
> ...


Again, like the other person you seem to be misinterpreting the post. What the post was saying wasn't that Female characters are automatically hated it's when there's extreme hatred and/or negativity expressed at a character, what characters are at the receiving end.

You're listing a few examples where Female characters were liked but not taking into account what was said in the post where the hate and negative expression that existed if there were any, was directed... like for example in Walking Dead how Sarah Wayne Callies character was so hated, venomously so.

[In examples, like Bones/Xena... the main character isn't typically hated by the viewers, and so a Female led/driven series the main character generally isn't going to be the one getting the hate, although it can happen like with Blacklist where Agent Keen gets the most hate, although it could be said that Spader's Red Reddington is the driving force and not Keen]

The comic examples are a different context altogether than what's being discussed in TV series.

----------


## LK3185

Has this show gotten any better past the first few episodes? I found them to be really dreary and awful. As an everything Batman related fan, it makes me feel bad that I dropped the show but I can't just watch out of a feeling of obligation. Literally the only thing I liked was the Selina story.

----------


## The Batlord

> Female characters always get the most outrageous hate in series, it's nothing new. Almost every series i've followed where there's been continued negative vocal expression about a character or characters, and i've followed many... it was Female characters. 
> 
> It's usually best to ignore it after a certain point imo. I don't really think it's a commentary on anything related to the actual series but more to do with the people. I mean, think about a series like Arrow where three seasons in and people are still expressing the same negativity and hate toward Laurel... i'm sure if Gotham lasts a while, these same people who take that approach with Montoya/Barbara/Fish will be doing it 2-3 seasons later even still.


I have to agree. When female characters are strong there generally isn't a problem, but when there's something to be criticized it gets blown out of proportion until "Oh god she's the worst character ever she should be killed off!" I mean Bullock, aside from being amusing, is far more unlikable than Montoya. But he's acted well and entertains on screen, while Montoya has been a relatively lackluster character so far. But rather than just say, "Jeez Louise, Montoya is boring", every flaw is scrutinized to an extent that probably wouldn't happen to a male character, and her character is assassinated far more than is reasonable.

And I think comments like "Barbara, I personally don't mind her. Not the brightest bulb in the box, but I agree with Falcone. She's a good woman." is pretty condescending. As if, while she's boring and stupid, it's okay, cause a woman doesn't need to be smart so long as she's a loyal and devoted wife.

Edit: I'm new here, so I don't know the ropes so well, but if the mods tend to lock threads that go this direction I'd be more than happy to drop this.

----------


## General Nerditry

I can't speak to an overall trend in media, but in this show, I think claim that the female characters are getting undue amounts of criticism are thin at best.  Specific to Gotham, Barbara and Gordon got lots of heat because they were horribly written and making awful choices that seem stupid to us and make like harder for our protagonists.  The female characters of Gotham don't have problems because of fans; they have problems because of their writing.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Strongly disagree on the female characters getting the hate.  If they do, then there is a reason for it.  For me, its all about how you present yourself.  Fans had such a strong reaction to female characters they soared as a result:
> 
> Xena:  Started out as a villain in Hercules.  She got her own series and arguably a larger fan-base.  
> 
> Harley Quinn:  Started out as Joker's airhead assistant in the animated series.  She's well known through the media now and her comic sales are taking out the heavy hitters.
> 
> Michonne:  Do I need to explain this one?  
> 
> Temperance "Bones" Brennan:  I put her on this list because even though her partner is FBI Agent played by David Boreanaz, she has a stronger presence.  I can see the show continuing without him, but not her.
> ...


Well said.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Back on track, can't wait until tomorrow. It will be Black Mask now for Gotham!

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

is it strange that I'm still upset that Donal Logue and Robin Lord Taylor weren't nominated for next year's peoples choice awards yet Jada And Mckenzie were?

----------


## Tupiaz

> Has this show gotten any better past the first few episodes? I found them to be really dreary and awful. As an everything Batman related fan, it makes me feel bad that I dropped the show but I can't just watch out of a feeling of obligation. Literally the only thing I liked was the Selina story.


I think it has become better. However there hasn't happened much with Selina lately. The only scene there has been lately has been where she was in Bruce Mansion and stole something (what it was is unclear).

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

as we inch closer and closer to EP8(The Mask) i have to say this show is surprising me with how good it's been and how that something like this ended up on fox....the network that some viewers became convinced was out to cancel any new show that didn't instantly impress them

----------


## The Batlord

> as we inch closer and closer to EP8(The Mask) i have to say this show is surprising me with how good it's been and how that something like this ended up on fox....the network that some viewers became convinced was out to cancel any new show that didn't instantly impress them

----------


## PretenderNX01

> As for Barbara and Fish.  I strongly doubt its because they're female that fans have the problem with, its because if you compare them to the other cast members (Cobblepot, Alfred, Falcone, and Bullock are killing it) they lack substance.  Barbara, I personally don't mind her.  Not the brightest bulb in the box, but I agree with Falcone.  She's a good woman.  Fish, she has an impressive presence, but the two problems I have with this character is that I find her acting performance weaker compared to the other cast members and her story is by far the least interesting to me.


I'm going to argue anyone comparing Barbara's character and actress to Fish's character and actress is doing so strictly because of their gender. 

I'll grant you Babs is lame so far but Fish is planning on taking on Falcone and her actress seems to be having a blast being there (less weak of a performance than the  standard Goodfellas mobsters). Yet I read comments from people (and we can assume they're men) who post about how they can't wait for Penguin to kill her and they hope it's excruciating. They also post about how they want someone to out a bullet in Montoya's head. I get people don't like how they're writing but Babs and Renne get maybe three minutes of screen time and yet guys obsess over how much they hate them.

It's never "I wish they'd improve this female" it's always "kill her". 

That's a very different reaction to how when they find Nigma annoying (and many do) they just wish he wasn't telegraphed so much as being Riddler. One can argue they can't kill Riddler but they can kill Fish but I'd counter they can't kill Question yet people keep posting they should.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I'm going to argue anyone comparing Barbara's character and actress to Fish's character and actress is doing so strictly because of their gender. 
> 
> I'll grant you Babs is lame so far but Fish is planning on taking on Falcone and her actress seems to be having a blast being there (less weak of a performance than the  standard Goodfellas mobsters). Yet I read comments from people (and we can assume they're men) who post about how they can't wait for Penguin to kill her and they hope it's excruciating. They also post about how they want someone to out a bullet in Montoya's head. I get people don't like how they're writing but Babs and Renne get maybe three minutes of screen time and yet guys obsess over how much they hate them.
> 
> It's never "I wish they'd improve this female" it's always "kill her". 
> 
> That's a very different reaction to how when they find Nigma annoying (and many do) they just wish he wasn't telegraphed so much as being Riddler. One can argue they can't kill Riddler but they can kill Fish but I'd counter they can't kill Question yet people keep posting they should.


In the case of Montoya it was especially noteworthy since everybody was hating her for going after Gordon. Which was quite logical since everybody thought Gordon did it and he did fake Penguins death. Add to that he works with Bullock who is know for being dirty then you will get suspicious.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> In the case of Montoya it was especially noteworthy since everybody was hating her for going after Gordon. Which was quite logical since everybody thought Gordon did it and he did fake Penguins death. Add to that he works with Bullock who is know for being dirty then you will get suspicious.


but They've even managed to make Bullock a likable character to some extent....yet all they've done with Montoya so far is make her look like a psychotic jealous lover who can't control her emotions long enough not to make a stupid decision plus everyone else was quite aware of Falcone pulling the strings yet Montoya is seen making a huge scene about this case in The GCPD  not once thinking about how this might come back to bite her in the ass

most people hate on montoya because she went straight after gordon because of barbara and barbara alone...she had little to no evidence that would actually prove gordon even killed anyone(if there's no body or sign that anyone was killed....it's a huge risk just running this case like it's your mission)

----------


## The Batlord

It was also kind of a red flag that a female whose character really hasn't been fleshed out yet was being thrown under the bridge without being given a chance because she was seen as an irrational woman whose entire motivation was romantic. The show didn't necessarily do itself any favors by introducing her in the way that it did, but more than a few people weren't even considering a wait-and-see attitude.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It was also kind of a red flag that a female whose character really hasn't been fleshed out yet was being thrown under the bridge without being given a chance because she was seen as an irrational woman whose entire motivation was romantic. The show didn't necessarily do itself any favors by introducing her in the way that it did, but more than a few people weren't even considering a wait-and-see attitude.


The latter sentence of your comments is what I don't understand. Did people here really think Montoya was going to stay this way throughout the entire series run? While I feel her actions were more than questionable before last week's episode (even she agreed with that), I really had no doubts as to her changing her tune later on. IOW, patience is a virtue.

----------


## Tupiaz

> but They've even managed to make Bullock a likable character to some extent....yet all they've done with Montoya so far is make her look like a psychotic jealous lover who can't control her emotions long enough not to make a stupid decision plus everyone else was quite aware of Falcone pulling the strings yet Montoya is seen making a huge scene about this case in The GCPD  not once thinking about how this might come back to bite her in the ass
> 
> most people hate on montoya because she went straight after gordon because of barbara and barbara alone...she had little to no evidence that would actually prove gordon even killed anyone(if there's no body or sign that anyone was killed....it's a huge risk just running this case like it's your mission)


The whole point was she believed Gordon was in Falcone pocket. Bullock has over the episodes become more straight. However in the beginning Bullock was more of Flass character than the Bullock we now from the show. 

Montoya believes (and rightfully so) Gordon is a dirty cop she then choose to tell this to her former girlfriend because she cares for her. Is Gordon a dirty cop? No, but he did do much to come across as a straight cop when he faked Penguins death. Montoya got the rumours from Fish that Gordon did it and Gordon was already on her radar because he works with Bullock which is a dirty cop. The heat Montoya has been over the top especially with the air time she has gotten. The same goes for Babera which has just been forgettable but the shows is not about her and the shows premiss is that she is first and foremost Gordon's love interest. She doesn't really do that much besides that. Hopefully the show will show her in a different setting in the future but the Show can do everything to begin with.

----------


## brucekent12

I understand that Barbara is the love interest of the show's main character, but it seems her only  two functions on the show so far is to either defend her man, or say she doesn't understand him anymore. The actress seems nice in interviews but the part  at this point seems useless and a waste of time. Since you can't make her a cop, maybe he can have an affair with Falcone or something that might make her more interesting.Especially if Jim has something going on with Leslie Thomkins.

----------


## The Batlord

> Since you can't make her a cop, maybe *he* can have an affair with Falcone or something that might make her more interesting.


That would certainly make _Jim_ more interesting at least.

----------


## byrd156

> That would certainly make _Jim_ more interesting at least.


Man Gordon sure gets around.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I understand that Barbara is the love interest of the show's main character, but it seems her only  two functions on the show so far is to either defend her man, or say she doesn't understand him anymore. The actress seems nice in interviews but the part  at this point seems useless and a waste of time. Since you can't make her a cop, maybe he can have an affair with Falcone or something that might make her more interesting.Especially if Jim has something going on with Leslie Thomkins.


Leslie Thomkins hasn't even been on the show (if she has I have missed it). I think an affair with Falcone would be so out of place especially since she was captured by him and he threaten Jim. Would I like to see more interesting things done with her? Yes, but I also have the patience to wait for it.

----------


## colossus34

> Female characters always get the most outrageous hate in series, it's nothing new. Almost every series i've followed where there's been continued negative vocal expression about a character or characters, and i've followed many... it was Female characters. 
> 
> It's usually best to ignore it after a certain point imo. I don't really think it's a commentary on anything related to the actual series but more to do with the people. I mean, think about a series like Arrow where three seasons in and people are still expressing the same negativity and hate toward Laurel... i'm sure if Gotham lasts a while, these same people who take that approach with Montoya/Barbara/Fish will be doing it 2-3 seasons later even still.


No need to be playing the typical victim/sympathy card. Female characters are treated EXACTLY the same here. Selina on the show has gotten great reviews so far and she's been a nice addition, but its not our fault Montoya/Barbara/Fish are horribly played. The characters are badly written and really unlikable at this point. Fish is a like a cartoon character and Barbara is a plot device who does nothing but get in the way. What I've notice happens frequently is female/minority characters are usually shoe-horned into ensembles without much thought put into it. There is an over compensation to show them as "badass" or overly competent/strong and they end up having very few vulnerabilities that make them relatable.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> The whole point was she believed Gordon was in Falcone pocket. Bullock has over the episodes become more straight. However in the beginning Bullock was more of Flass character than the Bullock we now from the show. 
> 
> Montoya believes (and rightfully so) Gordon is a dirty cop she then choose to tell this to her former girlfriend because she cares for her. Is Gordon a dirty cop? No, but he did do much to come across as a straight cop when he faked Penguins death. Montoya got the rumours from Fish that Gordon did it and Gordon was already on her radar because he works with Bullock which is a dirty cop. The heat Montoya has been over the top especially with the air time she has gotten. The same goes for Babera which has just been forgettable but the shows is not about her and the shows premiss is that she is first and foremost Gordon's love interest. She doesn't really do that much besides that. Hopefully the show will show her in a different setting in the future but the Show can do everything to begin with.


If Gordon was in Falcone's pocket then i don't think montoya could really do anything about that now could she?....you keep saying how bullock is a dirty cop....well almost every cop in gotham city is dirty and plays by falcone's rules

so i don't see what good going after gordon did her when in the end....it made everyone's lives that much harder to live

she disregarded the nature of the city and what happens to people who jump the gun....she thought she could just come in and arrest whoever she wanted to.....

her being female has nothing to do with people hating her...Selina is like the best female character on the show because she's actually a character and not some poorly constructed plot device or mental ex-girlfriend that only gave gordon more crap to worry about

----------


## SXVA

> No need to be playing the typical victim/sympathy card. Female characters are treated EXACTLY the same here. Selina on the show has gotten great reviews so far and she's been a nice addition, but its not our fault Montoya/Barbara/Fish are horribly played. The characters are badly written and really unlikable at this point. Fish is a like a cartoon character and Barbara is a plot device who does nothing but get in the way. What I've notice happens frequently is female/minority characters are usually shoe-horned into ensembles without much thought put into it. There is an over compensation to show them as "badass" or overly competent/strong and they end up having very few vulnerabilities that make them relatable.


I don't really mind Barbara, Fish or Montoya at this point.

I don't see how Fish is a cartoon character as such a negative when the series has been very cartoonish at it's core and other characters like Nygma, Bullock, Penguin and some of the villains have been "cartoony" as well, i don't see how Montoya's flaws bring her to be rejected when most of the characters in the series have flaws, and don't really get the excessive negativity surrounding Barbara because she happens to be in love with the lead character and that's where she's being developed currently. That's not all that she's been, she's also dealing with the Montoya stuff to where she's made effort to handle things with Montoya, helping Gordon out and even sacrificing her safety in going to Falcone. She's the romantic partner of the main character, she's not Batman or Harley Quinn... as far as i can tell she's just a normal person in love with Gordon trying to find her way in Gotham and deal... i don't know what people expect from the character that would appease them.

[At the beginning i can understand all that, but now that we're progressing into the story more and more it's a bit different going forward as we become familiar and more connected... sort of like the example i pointed out with Laurel in Arrow after 3 seasons]

It's not a coincidence that three Female characters get the most hate and negativity, i don't believe in coincidences anyway... as i've already stated i've seen it in almost every series i've followed which is numerous going back years [if it did exist], where even terrible/ghastly villains will be liked over those characters. There wasn't much hate or negativity for Zsaz for example, and he's an evil villain who slaughters people without care, while Montoya/Barbara who while flawed is a good person and on the good side is crucified because they're not perfect in dealing with a complicated situation.

I find it a bit ummm surprising that someone would say they've been made out to be unlikable but so many other unlikable characters in the series are given a pass somehow. I don't think most of the people are even meant to be likeable straightaway as Gotham is a madhouse and there's so much corruption and insanity surrounding it.

One person's reasoning is another person's excuse... in different perspectives, that is. At the end of the day what's left, however... is that three Female characters get the most negativity and hate. Which make up the majority of time Female characters have had on the screen between those three, if i were to take a guess i think it would make up the majority of time. And it was the same way in a lot of other series i've experienced. I left it open to interpretation in stating that when there is that sort of negativity/hate toward character's it's almost always Female characters... i didn't say why, or what type of characters or anything, i left it open to interpretation as to the why, just that it is.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I don't really mind Barbara, Fish or Montoya at this point.
> 
> I don't see how Fish is a cartoon character as such a negative when the series has been very cartoonish at it's core and other characters like Nygma, Bullock, Penguin and some of the villains have been "cartoony" as well, i don't see how Montoya's flaws bring her to be rejected when most of the characters in the series have flaws, and don't really get the excessive negativity surrounding Barbara because she happens to be in love with the lead character and that's where she's being developed currently. That's not all that she's been, she's also dealing with the Montoya stuff to where she's made effort to handle things with Montoya, helping Gordon out and even sacrificing her safety in going to Falcone. She's the romantic partner of the main character, she's not Batman or Harley Quinn... as far as i can tell she's just a normal person in love with Gordon trying to find her way in Gotham and deal... i don't know what people expect from the character that would appease them.


I don't mind Barbara, but it doesn't seem like she's allowed to do anything. She can't even appear in public with Montoya because the danger and she can only be important by getting taken hostage. 

I've given Laurel a lot of crap but at least she was given a job from day 1 that gave her something to do.

----------


## Tupiaz

> If Gordon was in Falcone's pocket then i don't think montoya could really do anything about that now could she?....you keep saying how bullock is a dirty cop....well almost every cop in gotham city is dirty and plays by falcone's rules
> 
> so i don't see what good going after gordon did her when in the end....it made everyone's lives that much harder to live
> 
> she disregarded the nature of the city and what happens to people who jump the gun....she thought she could just come in and arrest whoever she wanted to.....
> 
> her being female has nothing to do with people hating her...Selina is like the best female character on the show because she's actually a character and not some poorly constructed plot device or mental ex-girlfriend that only gave gordon more crap to worry about


She was going after him because she was investigating a murder. It was a simply as that. She was doing her job. She thought Gordon had done a hit for Falcone which is much worse than being a random dirty cop.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> She was going after him because she was investigating a murder. It was a simply as that. She was doing her job. She thought Gordon had done a hit for Falcone which is much worse than being a random dirty cop.


Again...Falcone owns the city so her efforts would be wasted and she would probably be dead if she tipped off falcone in the wrong way

----------


## magicallypuzzled

> Again...Falcone owns the city so her efforts would be wasted and she would probably be dead if she tipped off falcone in the wrong way


are you actually advocating that she'd be a better character if she accepted that falcone will always win so she should not try and bring in people she thinks she has proof of being a murder?  cause i can't understand you at all if you are.

edit just thought i should mention that i love barbara montoya and fish as characters my only thing i don;t like about any of them is fish has a tendency to be more bloody and violent then i tend to like same with penguin who i loathe.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> are you actually advocating that she'd be a better character if she accepted that falcone will always win so she should not try and bring in people she thinks she has proof of being a murder?  cause i can't understand you at all if you are.
> 
> edit just thought i should mention that i love barbara montoya and fish as characters my only thing i don;t like about any of them is fish has a tendency to be more bloody and violent then i tend to like same with penguin who i loathe.


No I'm just saying that she shouldn't rush into everything like she has no patience and alert everyone about what she's doing

----------


## colossus34

> I don't really mind Barbara, Fish or Montoya at this point.
> 
> I don't see how Fish is a cartoon character as such a negative when the series has been very cartoonish at it's core and other characters like Nygma, Bullock, Penguin and some of the villains have been "cartoony" as well, i don't see how Montoya's flaws bring her to be rejected when most of the characters in the series have flaws, and don't really get the excessive negativity surrounding Barbara because she happens to be in love with the lead character and that's where she's being developed currently. That's not all that she's been, she's also dealing with the Montoya stuff to where she's made effort to handle things with Montoya, helping Gordon out and even sacrificing her safety in going to Falcone. She's the romantic partner of the main character, she's not Batman or Harley Quinn... as far as i can tell she's just a normal person in love with Gordon trying to find her way in Gotham and deal... i don't know what people expect from the character that would appease them.
> 
> [At the beginning i can understand all that, but now that we're progressing into the story more and more it's a bit different going forward as we become familiar and more connected... sort of like the example i pointed out with Laurel in Arrow after 3 seasons]
> 
> It's not a coincidence that three Female characters get the most hate and negativity, i don't believe in coincidences anyway... as i've already stated i've seen it in almost every series i've followed which is numerous going back years [if it did exist], where even terrible/ghastly villains will be liked over those characters. There wasn't much hate or negativity for Zsaz for example, and he's an evil villain who slaughters people without care, while Montoya/Barbara who while flawed is a good person and on the good side is crucified because they're not perfect in dealing with a complicated situation.
> 
> I find it a bit ummm surprising that someone would say they've been made out to be unlikable but so many other unlikable characters in the series are given a pass somehow. I don't think most of the people are even meant to be likeable straightaway as Gotham is a madhouse and there's so much corruption and insanity surrounding it.
> ...


Fair enough. Sounds more like you're placing your own personal bias on it rather than looking at this show/characters objectively from the rest. You're also comparing Zsaz which was a one episode appearance to someone like Fish whose had numerous episodes to flesh the character out, but still remains a one-note, scene chewing and over-acted part. She hasn't done one redeeming thing the entire series so its hard to really compare her to Bullock whose saved numerous other people's lives and shown sides to himself besides the "cartoony" detective stereotype. And don't forget, Lili Taylor gave a great performance in her one episode appearance and was mostly praised for her role as Patti so there's obviously no bias against great villain characters regardless of gender. 

Barbara is a very badly written part, she serves no purpose but being fodder and plot propellant for Gordon as was perfectly evidenced in the last episode when he had to chose to save her life over arresting Falcone. It doesn't help that the actress who plays her shows very little subtlety and looks more like she belongs on a daytime soap than a late night drama, frankly she just doesn't have the acting chops to add many layers to her role. i dont see her charcter lasting very long, especially with word that Leslie Thompkins will be a love interest for Gordon soon.

Montoya was written into a hole from day one. I mean it's not good when a character is in the dark to something that the audience already knows is false. She caried along for episode after episode chasing after Gordon for a crime he didn't commit, and seemed more spiteful in her pursuit than she should have been. It made her rub audiences the wrong way from the get go, add to that she's rude, confrontational and abrasive in all her appearances so its not hard to see the hate she is brewing up. Honestly, I enjoyed her BTAS treatment much better and wish they would write her more in that direction, instead of trying to drive a manufactured wedge between her and Bullock/Gordon. Which I'm sure is going to keep flaring up again and again.

I'm optimistic though, if they write Leslie Thompkins as someone relatable and rounded, I could see her really meshing well with Gordon and Young Bruce and being one of the more liked characters on the show. Guess we'll have to wait and see..

----------


## tabo61

Was the bully kid that Bruce beat the hell out of Thomas Elliot?

----------


## Tupiaz

> Again...Falcone owns the city so her efforts would be wasted and she would probably be dead if she tipped off falcone in the wrong way


It doesn't change it was her job to investigate the murder. She had a very good reason to believe Gordon did it. She did her job and had a change to go after what she believed was a dirty cop. Besides the difference between a cop killing for the mob and a cop taking bribes like many cops in Gotham is a huge difference.




> Montoya was written into a hole from day one. I mean it's not good when a character is in the dark to something that the audience already knows is false. She caried along for episode after episode chasing after Gordon for a crime he didn't commit, and seemed more spiteful in her pursuit than she should have been. It made her rub audiences the wrong way from the get go, add to that she's rude, confrontational and abrasive in all her appearances so its not hard to see the hate she is brewing up. Honestly, I enjoyed her BTAS treatment much better and wish they would write her more in that direction, instead of trying to drive a manufactured wedge between her and Bullock/Gordon. Which I'm sure is going to keep flaring up again and again.


Which was only know to a few people involved in the case even Bullock thought Penguin got killed. Montoya was put on case to solve the Penguin murder because it was believed she was dead. When you partner is now for being a dirty cop it doesn't help you. Gordon has just arrived to Gotham so he hasn't done anything to make her trust him. As a good cop in Gotham you don't trust your colleagues because so many of them are dirty. I really don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 8 "The Mask"  While I didn't really care for the Penguin or the Fish Mooney scenes I thought the case Gordon was investigating was interesting.  Nice to see Todd Stashwick show up as Black Mask.  The kid who plays Tommy Elliot is pretty creepy and seeing Bruce punch him in the face was kind of satisfying.




> Was the bully kid that Bruce beat the hell out of Thomas Elliot?


Yeah

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

anyone else disappointed the cliffhanger scene was something we saw a week ago in the first preview?  this episode wasn't that great all around but i look forward to Selina Kyle popping back up for next week's episode

----------


## magicallypuzzled

> No I'm just saying that she shouldn't rush into everything like she has no patience and alert everyone about what she's doing


i don't see how there was any rushing what so ever she simply got the evidence and did her job.

----------


## InfamousBG

I thought the episode tonight was pretty good. Seeing Tommy was awesome.

----------


## Godzilla2099

- Fish is finally getting development to her character.  I loved watching her interact with the older woman.  
- Cobblepot continues to be a clever, manipulative little bastard 
- Alfred continues to be one of my favorite characters on the show
- Nygma is pushing forward
- Bruce wants to fight
- More Gordon/Barbara issues
- Bullock is awesome
- Selina is charming and crafty

Excellent episode as always.  Loved seeing Tommy getting his ass kicked.  I could never stand his character.

----------


## Nite-Wing

See this episode is prime fodder for barbara hate. all she does is whine and then run off being super flighty

----------


## SXVA

> Fair enough. Sounds more like you're placing your own personal bias on it rather than looking at this show/characters objectively from the rest. You're also comparing Zsaz which was a one episode appearance to someone like Fish whose had numerous episodes to flesh the character out, but still remains a one-note, scene chewing and over-acted part. She hasn't done one redeeming thing the entire series so its hard to really compare her to Bullock whose saved numerous other people's lives and shown sides to himself besides the "cartoony" detective stereotype. And don't forget, Lili Taylor gave a great performance in her one episode appearance and was mostly praised for her role as Patti so there's obviously no bias against great villain characters regardless of gender. 
> 
> Barbara is a very badly written part, she serves no purpose but being fodder and plot propellant for Gordon as was perfectly evidenced in the last episode when he had to chose to save her life over arresting Falcone. It doesn't help that the actress who plays her shows very little subtlety and looks more like she belongs on a daytime soap than a late night drama, frankly she just doesn't have the acting chops to add many layers to her role. i dont see her charcter lasting very long, especially with word that Leslie Thompkins will be a love interest for Gordon soon.
> 
> Montoya was written into a hole from day one. I mean it's not good when a character is in the dark to something that the audience already knows is false. She caried along for episode after episode chasing after Gordon for a crime he didn't commit, and seemed more spiteful in her pursuit than she should have been. It made her rub audiences the wrong way from the get go, add to that she's rude, confrontational and abrasive in all her appearances so its not hard to see the hate she is brewing up. Honestly, I enjoyed her BTAS treatment much better and wish they would write her more in that direction, instead of trying to drive a manufactured wedge between her and Bullock/Gordon. Which I'm sure is going to keep flaring up again and again.
> 
> I'm optimistic though, if they write Leslie Thompkins as someone relatable and rounded, I could see her really meshing well with Gordon and Young Bruce and being one of the more liked characters on the show. Guess we'll have to wait and see..


Well, there's probably a little bit of a bias in most perspectives/views... it's difficult to remain purely objective at all times. I wasn't really meaning to be objective though, the post was through the lens of how i see it.

I wasn't directly comparing Zsaz and anyone, i was simply pointing out that a ghastly evil villain like his character was receiving praise to contrast the reception of Barbara/Montoya who are both good characters especially when it's being said that those three Female characters were unlikable, establishing contrast with terrible villains. Fish being a villainous character i would expect to receive a certain level of negativity and so i didn't include her but i was trying to point out where i've seen numerous occasions where terrible, evil villain characters were liked/praised or didn't receive negativity/hate in comparison to where the hate/negativity was instead directed which leaves me bewildered.

I can't say that i agree with your viewpoint and how you see a few of the characters, i guess i'm much easier to please and less critical.. i'm not really analyzing the writing and judging, or determining the particular skills of the actor... i'm more in "escapist mode" enjoying the fantasy. I don't really care if the actress who plays Barbara is the best ever, she brings enough to the character to where it doesn't put me off and that's good enough for me. Then again, i probably don't know good acting as i enjoy some of those daytime soaps.  :Smile: 

However, it would seem you have valid points in your own view relative to your own perspective and to why you don't like certain characters which is fair enough, i'm not suggesting people can't dislike the characters... from my point of view it just doesn't seem like it applies to those three characters exclusively and so it seems unfair to condemn those characters specifically but too each their own. I wasn't even really speaking exclusively to Gotham, or to this thread... i was making a very broad and general sentiment of my experiences throughout many series, in which i see continuing here in Gotham.

Like i said previously, i left it open to interpretation... it might actually be on the side of the writers, actors or directors and not the fanbase or a combination of the creative side and viewer side... i wasn't blaming anyone specifically or saying why this was how it was. Again, i was just saying that it's something i've seen on way too many occasions and experiences. Why that is, it's still a mystery to me exactly why.

[Although, it's usually the viewers expressing themselves one way or the other and so that's what stands out first and foremost. What the cause of these reactions is, that remains an elusive mystery. Then there becomes questions like, if the main cause is on this side couldn't the other side be more forgiving and accepting, or.. what can be done, etc]

----------


## Tupiaz

> See this episode is prime fodder for barbara hate. all she does is whine and then run off being super flighty


Or maybe she has just gotten enough of not being including in Jim's life. This is something new and has happened in the comics (for instance in Turning Point #1).

----------


## gsnake007

Bruce made this episode for me. Slapping the hell out of tommy then beating his ass at his own house with the help of alfred was priceless. Good riddance to Barbara though make way for leslie thompkins to hook up with jim

----------


## MykeHavoc

Which is just weird, as she was utilized as a love interest for Alfred in her early comic appearances. I would've preferred that, as Alfred's social life outside of serving Bruce's needs is always something I'd like to see more of. More depth and dimension is never a bad thing. I do hope Tommy and Bruce can strike up a friendship after their fight and find some common ground with losing parents. But they portray him as a little shit, so hopefully he gets some pathos added at some point. Never to early to plant some seeds. 

I dont think anyone expected a show like say Smallville to last a decade, so a lot could be explored if they start hinting at things early on and allow them to organically grow. Im also thinking we obviously dont see Bruce dawn the cowl (unless they start flashing forward in later seasons) but if he were to develop the Robin persona (I think some pre-crisis iteration did that) we could see him and Selina getting into some crime prevention.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Was the bully kid that Bruce beat the hell out of Thomas Elliot?


Yes, that I'm pretty sure was the intent. If this who Elliot is going to be I'm fine with it. You can even let him have a few appearances. I would hope the ut Bruce more in the background however seems like he is going to be pushed more in the foreground after this episode.

----------


## neonrideraryeh

Some bad-ass Gordon moments there which was good.

The scenes with Penguin's mother go on way too long.

----------


## PennyD

Did anyone else want a Bruce that took the higher road with Elliot to become friends, like the dynamic school buddy duo then tell Alfred he needs to learn how to fight because he understands his weaknesses?  I dont like this pre Hush, I dont like a Bruce that likes to fight because he is angry, and i dont like a Alfred that encourages bullying! This Show is getting weird with it.

----------


## blackbolt396

> Did anyone else want a Bruce that took the higher road with Elliot to become friends, like the dynamic school buddy duo then tell Alfred he needs to learn how to fight because he understands his weaknesses?  I dont like this pre Hush, I dont like a Bruce that likes to fight because he is angry, and i dont like a Alfred that encourages bullying! This Show is getting weird with it.


Alfred wasn't encouraging bullying , my opinion he gave a great lesson in taking care of one's business.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Which is just weird, as she was utilized as a love interest for Alfred in her early comic appearances. I would've preferred that, as Alfred's social life outside of serving Bruce's needs is always something I'd like to see more of.


Nothing says she can't later on in the future. A girl can date more than one guy in her life.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Did anyone else want a Bruce that took the higher road with Elliot to become friends, like the dynamic school buddy duo then tell Alfred he needs to learn how to fight because he understands his weaknesses?  I dont like this pre Hush, I dont like a Bruce that likes to fight because he is angry, and i dont like a Alfred that encourages bullying! This Show is getting weird with it.


Why would anyone want to be friends with someone who not only speaks ill of their mother but has a thing for dead bodies? Um, no.

I also don't think Tommy and Bruce need to be friends just in general. Tommy was always jealous of Bruce. And Alfred had the right response, Tommy needs to remember that Alfred let Bruce. Tommy can't go running for the authority figure after causing trouble, he has to deal with the consequences. Fighting back isn't bullying,




> I do hope Tommy and Bruce can strike up a friendship after their fight and find some common ground with losing parents.


I don't think Tommy's parents are dead yet. Hence he hasn't seen a real dead body.




> The scenes with Penguin's mother go on way too long.


Yeah but they provide interesting info. Instead of telling on the girl who was getting special attention- she told on the girl's father. She hurt the girl by hurting someone she cared about. Then Penguin went after Fish's new umbrella guy. I'm thinking the apple don't fall far from the tree.

----------


## Tupiaz

Sneak peak at Harvey Dent in next episode. I think the coin was a bit much however they did handle it better than it could have been. Also made me wonder if the kid is some kind of easter egg. 







> Did anyone else want a Bruce that took the higher road with Elliot to become friends, like the dynamic school buddy duo then tell Alfred he needs to learn how to fight because he understands his weaknesses?  I dont like this pre Hush, I dont like a Bruce that likes to fight because he is angry, and i dont like a Alfred that encourages bullying! This Show is getting weird with it.


I like the Bruce who likes to fight because well he dose that as an adult as well. I have never been a fan of Hush but I like this version better than the original.

----------


## MykeHavoc

> Nothing says she can't later on in the future. A girl can date more than one guy in her life. 
> 
> I don't think Tommy's parents are dead yet. Hence he hasn't seen a real dead body


True, but I'd say the intended age difference between Gordon and Alfred here is at least 20 years, so Leslie has tended to skew older in her appearances. 

I thought Tommy had a line of dialogue about "not having parents" himself in the episode. Maybe I misheard.

----------


## MykeHavoc

> I have never been a fan of Hush but I like this version better than the original.


Have you read the Dini Hush trilogy (Heart/Money/House)? THAT is the real Hush. Made him one of the best villains ever with that run.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Did anyone else want a Bruce that took the higher road with Elliot to become friends, like the dynamic school buddy duo then tell Alfred he needs to learn how to fight because he understands his weaknesses?  I dont like this pre Hush, I dont like a Bruce that likes to fight because he is angry, and i dont like a Alfred that encourages bullying! This Show is getting weird with it.


I thought it was a terrible scene. Teaching a kid self defense is one thing, but having him go to Tommys house to exact revenge makes him no better than a thug. Bruce using his father's watch to deck Tommy and risk breaking a cherished memento? Ugh, total lack of respect. This show just has no class at all.

----------


## blackbolt396

> I thought it was a terrible scene. Teaching a kid self defense is one thing, but having him go to Tommys house to exact revenge makes him no better than a thug. Bruce using his father's watch to deck Tommy and risk breaking a cherished memento? Ugh, total lack of respect. This show just has no class at all.


Well Tommy want bully him anymore, what do we know of Alfred's upbringing if he's from the working class that was spot on.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> True, but I'd say the intended age difference between Gordon and Alfred here is at least 20 years, so Leslie has tended to skew older in her appearances. 
> 
> I thought Tommy had a line of dialogue about "not having parents" himself in the episode. Maybe I misheard.


I could have missed a line. 
Edit: _I remember Tommy wondering if Bruce was there to tell Tommy's parents, right before Bruce decked him. So yeah, I think they're alive._

Women sometimes date older though, so her still dating Alfred isn't out of the question. The actors are 15 years apart. If my math is good, when she's 50 then he'll be 65. 




> I thought it was a terrible scene. Teaching a kid self defense is one thing, but having him go to Tommys house to exact revenge makes him no better than a thug. Bruce using his father's watch to deck Tommy and risk breaking a cherished memento? Ugh, total lack of respect. This show just has no class at all.


Bruce's dad's watch was a symbol to remind him how personal it was (and acted like brass knuckles) and well Batman is a thug sometimes but I didn't think he was in that moment..

----------


## Tupiaz

> Have you read the Dini Hush trilogy (Heart/Money/House)? THAT is the real Hush. Made him one of the best villains ever with that run.


I have no interest in it whatsoever.

----------


## Typhoeus

At first I was unsure about this show but the last couple of episodes really made the difference for me.
Young Bruce fighting back against the bully: Best moment of the episode/milestone moment for Batman.
This young actor, David Mazouz is really doing a fantastic job; I really feel the anger, the loneliness and the pain of young Bruce. The last sequence: "Alfred...can you teach me how to fight?", that was priceless.
Sean Pertwee is also an amazing Alfred Pennyworth, by the way!
I also like how they handled the aftermath of the "James Gordon incident"; now every cop in the city despises Jim Gordon for reminding them how much they suck. Ironically, the best cop after Jim turns out to be Harvey Bullock. Donal Logue did a great job. It was really touching how he got the other cops to help Gordon in the end.
I'm not sure where the Penguin-Mooney-Falcone triangle is going but it's getting more and more intriguing.
Really a good episode, got me yearning for more. Good job DC!

----------


## ABH

My favorite bits continue to be Gordon, Bullock, Bruce and Cobblepot. Not my favorite interpretation, but Alfred is certainly moving up my list, as well. The rest of the characters range from "okay" to "mediocre".




> Did anyone else want a Bruce that took the higher road with Elliot to become friends, like the dynamic school buddy duo then tell Alfred he needs to learn how to fight because he understands his weaknesses?  I dont like this pre Hush, I dont like a Bruce that likes to fight because he is angry, and i dont like a Alfred that encourages bullying! This Show is getting weird with it.


It didn't really bother me, but I could still see Tommy and Bruce becoming friends, after this. It's pretty clear that Tommy didn't respect Bruce, but that might change now.

Bruce needs to learn to fight for himself, before he can fight for others.

----------


## Kid A

Jesus, did Bullock REALLY have to clarify he was making a pun?

----------


## ispacehead

This show just gets better and better. 

Loved that Alfred took Bruce to deal with Tommy the bully one on one immediately. Old school parenting, though the watch was a bit much, actually constituting assault with a deadly weapon... Still nice.

----------


## Kid A

The last two episodes were showing improvement and promise, but this one was pretty blah.  The writing got all clunky again, and Selina's appearances were just laughable.

Also, if we're going to play by the rules of this show, Bruce missed an opportunity to tell Tommy Elliott to HUSH.

----------


## phonogram12

> Well Tommy want bully him anymore, what do we know of Alfred's upbringing if he's from the working class that was spot on.


Yeah, I agree with this. Bruce couldn't do anything to help save his parents. However, stopping some spoiled brat of a bully from disrespecting not only their memory but also him is something he can and should do something about.

In other words, you talk smack about my mom you'll be picking your ass up from off the floor. And standing up for your parents (dead or alive) is about the classiest thing a person can do, IMHO.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I thought it was a terrible scene. Teaching a kid self defense is one thing, but having him go to Tommys house to exact revenge makes him no better than a thug.


It's not revenge, it's getting him to back off. Can't do that by waiting for him to instigate again with all his buddies around.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's not revenge, it's getting him to back off. Can't do that by waiting for him to instigate again with all his buddies around.


From personal experience as a kid, the last time I ever had a problem with a bully at school was when I said enough was enough back in 7th grade. Everybody knew it didn't pay to bother me after that. Oh, I haven't had another fight in 37 years, too.  :Smile:

----------


## The Batlord

> I thought it was a terrible scene. Teaching a kid self defense is one thing, but having him go to Tommys house to exact revenge makes him no better than a thug. Bruce using his father's watch to deck Tommy and risk breaking a cherished memento? Ugh, total lack of respect. This show just has no class at all.


He's Batman. Not Superman. He does what's necessary, short of killing. And since Bruce had failed to respond the first time, it was either wait for the next time (when Tommy would be taking the initiative) or make his own opportunity, _and_ hit "the enemy" when he wasn't expecting it to boot. Classic Batman.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Oh please now Bruce is a bully because he went to a bully's house and kicked his ass?
A bully preys on the weak this was just sending a message that he's not the one to pick with
Alfred did the right thing

----------


## blackbolt396

> Oh please now Bruce is a bully because he went to a bully's house and kicked his ass?
> A bully preys on the weak this was just sending a message that he's not the one to pick with
> Alfred did the right thing


Tell them again he's The God#!@& Batman.

----------


## colossus34

Solid episode. Dragged on in some moments, but the Bruce/Alfred interactions were really good. It felt natural and you can already see the life long torment/torture building up in Bruce at such a young age. You really feel invested in his story from the brief times we've seen him so far.

Finally nice to see Fish get something of a character moment with her "mother" "aunt" or whoever that old black lady is. Let's see them flesh that out a bit and see some more sides to her character. I think it's obvious at this point her lady mole is going to start having affections for Falcone. In fact, I'm predicting she already came out to him and the items she delivered to Fish are fake/concocted by Falcone himself. I hope there's another twist coming because that would be too predictable.

Unfortunately, Barbara keeps digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself with her portrayal. Very awkward conversation/scene with her and Gordon in the opening and then nagging him at his job was really unnecessary. I feel like the writers are really trying their best to make us annoyed by her character. So happy to see she once again is leaving Gordon the second time in 3 episodes. Very faithful women you got there Gordon. Hopefully, Leslie will be a more interesting/complex role.

----------


## ispacehead

> Unfortunately, Barbara keeps digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself with her portrayal. Very awkward conversation/scene with her and Gordon in the opening and then nagging him at his job was really unnecessary.


I haven't been a big fan of that performance, but I feel like it's coming together. 

She's a beautiful, capable, loyal woman involved with a man that is married to his job.

Seems a little early for them to be having problems, but it kinda sets the tone for why she eventually leaves him.

----------


## Nick Miller

people need to accept the way characters are. And not wish for Barbara to be different.

There are women like her, in fiction and in real life.

And the actor has been doing a better job. 

I can't understand a single word Alfred and Mama Penguin say! ;( 

So Black Mask is in custody now, right?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I can't understand a single word Alfred and Mama Penguin say! ;(


I have no problem with Alfred, but Simka (I keep expecting Andy Kaufman to show up and say "Thank you very much!" every time I see her on the show) is sometimes difficult to understand.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> From personal experience as a kid, the last time I ever had a problem with a bully at school was when I said enough was enough back in 7th grade. Everybody knew it didn't pay to bother me after that. Oh, I haven't had another fight in 37 years, too.


Well I had different experiences as a kid. Getting bigger friends is the only thing that seemed to work to me.

----------


## Powerboy

Liking the show so far.  I was surprised by Alfred's solution to the problem.  Resolving a situation by taking the child to beat up the other child who beat him up seems, well, not exactly responsible adult behavior.  It's not as if Alfred through his position with the Waynes has no political or financial power to bring to bear in taking it up with the school system nor as if he knows Bruce will become Batman and has to take things into his own hands.

That aside, I like the buildup with the Penguin (oh, wait, I better not call him that) and just generally enjoy seeing the show unfold.  It's obviously well planned out.  I don't like every single detail.  But since no show could make every single person happy on every detail, I'm loving seeing Batman's origin presented in such detail.  

Just watched the last three episodes today on Hulu.  The streaming was very slow so every time it stopped, I jumped over to my DVDs while waiting for it to load more.  I've been re-watching the 1960s Batman.  So I was watching Julie Newmar's first appearance as Catwoman and, a minute later, watching the new Selina Kyle.

Let me tell you, the back and forth of moods and atmosphere of jumping back and forth between "Gotham" and "Batman '66" was- interesting.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well I had different experiences as a kid. Getting bigger friends is the only thing that seemed to work to me.


Well, I have never been small, so that's an advantage not everybody has. Probably why I was taunted more than bothered physically, too. If I had been smaller, though, I would have had to also look for bigger friends.

----------


## magicallypuzzled

> See this episode is prime fodder for barbara hate. all she does is whine and then run off being super flighty



i love it gordon acts like a jerk and its some how barbara that gets the hate for it.

----------


## phonogram12

> i love it gordon acts like a jerk and its some how barbara that gets the hate for it.


How is Gordon acting like a jerk?

----------


## Tupiaz

> How is Gordon acting like a jerk?


He has not let her in his life as a cop he has kept her at a distance and wont talk about any of the stuffs going on and then cut her short on several occasions.

----------


## phonogram12

> He has not let her in his life as a cop he has kept her at a distance and wont talk about any of the stuffs going on and then cut her short on several occasions.


The cut her short-thing I'll give you (pressure's of the job, but still), but the rest is just a part of his job. He wants to keep her safe. I honestly can't blame him for that, especially after what's happened in the series so far.

----------


## The Batlord

> Unfortunately, Barbara keeps digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself with her portrayal. Very awkward conversation/scene with her and Gordon in the opening and then nagging him at his job was really unnecessary. I feel like the writers are really trying their best to make us annoyed by her character. So happy to see she once again is leaving Gordon the second time in 3 episodes. Very faithful women you got there Gordon. Hopefully, Leslie will be a more interesting/complex role.


Well, she was sort of kidnapped by a mob boss and his psychotic hitman. You'd probably be thinking about ditching too.

----------


## ispacehead

> The cut her short-thing I'll give you (pressure's of the job, but still), but the rest is just a part of his job.


I think the point is that it's really difficult to be in a relationship with someone who is that driven.

I thought her departure was kinda sudden after all she's been through and stood up to recently, but who could blame a person? Perhaps next time we see her she'll be preggo and returning reluctantly.

----------


## phonogram12

> I think the point is that it's really difficult to be in a relationship with someone who is that driven.
> 
> I thought her departure was kinda sudden after all she's been through and stood up to recently, but who could blame a person?


I can agree with all of this.

----------


## magicallypuzzled

> How is Gordon acting like a jerk?


he's apparently so busy that a 30 second phone call is already 30 seconds too long and he has to hang up in the middle of his girl saying good bye  completely douchebag move.  really jim you couldn't take just a few seconds to be somewhat reassuring  if this were the fifth phone call in a row or something i'd understand getting exasperated but no theres no indication that it is.

----------


## phonogram12

> he's apparently so busy that a 30 second phone call is already 30 seconds too long and he has to hang up in the middle of his girl saying good bye  completely douchebag move.  really jim you couldn't take just a few seconds to be somewhat reassuring  if this were the fifth phone call in a row or something i'd understand getting exasperated but no theres no indication that it is.


See my above posts as well as ispacehead's.

----------


## Tupiaz

Promo for next week's episode, I think it looks pretty cool. 







> See my above posts as well as ispacehead's.


The whole Babera/Jim relationship had its up and downs. She would several times leave and they did had marriage counselling. However Jim not bothering talking with his wife just after she was kidnapped is not about being driven it is about not caring and being a douche.

----------


## phonogram12

> The whole Babera/Jim relationship had its up and downs. She would several times leave and they did had marriage counselling. However Jim not bothering talking with his wife just after she was kidnapped is not about being driven it is about not caring and being a douche.


Again, I agree with the idea that he was short. But her getting kidnapped was technically her own fault. When you walk into the lion's den...

While it did turn out for the best (I guess?), he still coulda' been miffed that she didn't stay safe and unkidnapped the way he had asked her to.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Again, I agree with the idea that he was short. But her getting kidnapped was technically her own fault. When you walk into the lion's den...
> 
> While it did turn out for the best (I guess?), he still coulda' been miffed that she didn't stay safe and unkidnapped the way he had asked her to.


I certainly don't hope that Jim thinks "Oh well, it was your own fault you got kidnap, why should I care?" A normal person would have taken some days of with your love one.

----------


## phonogram12

> I certainly don't hope that Jim thinks "Oh well, it was your own fault you got kidnap, why should I care?"


I honestly don't think he thinks that. That said, I can see him being a bit frustrated with her, though.




> A normal person would have taken some days of with your love one.


Except he knows that Gotham isn't going to clean itself up. He's on a very specific and very personal mission to take down Falcone, Mooney, the mayor, and any crooked cops that cross his path. As we've seen, a mission like that is very time-consuming. Is it rational? Hell no, it's not. But it's the path he's chosen for himself. Barbara's a grown woman. She can stay or go as she pleases. But she knows that these are the things he's set out to do. If she chooses to stay with him, she has to love him for who he is, not who she wants him to be.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I honestly don't think he thinks that. That said, I can see him being a bit frustrated with her, though.


I really don't think so. It was a hyperbole statement. 





> Except he knows that Gotham isn't going to clean itself up. He's on a very specific and very personal mission to take down Falcone, Mooney, the mayor, and any crooked cops that cross his path. As we've seen, a mission like that is very time-consuming. Is it rational? Hell no, it's not. But it's the path he's chosen for himself. Barbara's a grown woman. She can stay or go as she pleases. But she knows that these are the things he's set out to do. If she chooses to stay with him, she has to love him for who he is, not who she wants him to be.


This is why her action makes sense. It is also taken very much out of the comics. Jim cares more about his job than his family/Barbara. I really don't understand why Barbara is getting all the hate about the relationship. It is clearly Jim who is not committed to the relationship. You can argue that Barbara should be used more as a character than just a wife but the way she is portrayed don't make up for the hate she has gotten (at least here). Lastly what else should Barbara do who would it fit into the crime show that we would see her doing her job? It wouldn't really fit. A character like Leslie Thompson has a more logical fitting since she has been running health clinics for poor people and this fit more into the overall theme than Barbara (which job I have forgotten at the moment).

----------


## phonogram12

> This is why her action makes sense. It is also taken very much out of the comics. Jim cares more about his job than his family/Barbara. I really don't understand why Barbara is getting all the hate about the relationship. It is clearly Jim who is not committed to the relationship.


Perhaps not, but at the same time, he's never lied to her about where he wants certain aspects of his life positioned. And (clearly) he wants her and his job as a policeman at opposite ends of the spectrum, mostly for her own safety. Is that unhealthy and more than a tad bit condescending? Well, yeah, obviously. But he thinks that if they were positioned any closer she's that much closer to being in the line of fire, which has clearly been the case. That's for her to accept or not. If she would just make a definitive choice to either stay or leave instead of just being angry or needy all the time, I think fan reaction might change.




> Lastly what else should Barbara do who would it fit into the crime show that we would see her doing her job? It wouldn't really fit. A character like Leslie Thompson has a more logical fitting since she has been running health clinics for poor people and this fit more into the overall theme than Barbara (which job I have forgotten at the moment).


Which is one of the reasons they're bringing her on the show it seems.

----------


## The Batlord

> Perhaps not, but at the same time, he's never lied to her about where he wants certain aspects of his life positioned. And (clearly) he wants her and his job as a policeman at opposite ends of the spectrum, mostly for her own safety. Is that unhealthy and more than a tad bit condescending? Well, yeah, obviously. But he thinks that if they were positioned any closer she's that much closer to being in the line of fire, which has clearly been the case. That's for her to accept or not. If she would just make a definitive choice to either stay or leave instead of just being angry or needy all the time, I think fan reaction might change.


So she either has to accept second place with a man she is supposed to be partners with and suck it up, or ditch a man she's agreed to marry with the same kind of nonchalance one uses when cancelling their car insurance? Relationships are messy, complicated, and never ever work out quite the way we thought it would. To just expect her to make a choice like that at the drop of a hat is unreasonable, and would turn her into a far more two-dimensional character.

----------


## America / Bucky / Russia

I tried watching the first episode but just couldn't get into it. Think I'll stick with the _Constantine_ show.

----------


## Randumbz

> He has not let her in his life as a cop he has kept her at a distance and wont talk about any of the stuffs going on and then cut her short on several occasions.


Cops aren't allowed to discuss cases with civilians. She knew what she was getting into when they started dating and yet she still demands attention 24/7. It's ridiculous.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Gordon-God!!!

Why are DC trying to push Tommy Eliot lately?

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Have you read the Dini Hush trilogy (Heart/Money/House)? THAT is the real Hush. Made him one of the best villains ever with that run.


Just finished reading that. It was really good.

----------


## EdwardNigma

This episode was GREAT! They really nailed the show and it has found its groove. I loved the introduction of Sionis Industries and Nygma got a little more screen time. He still needs to show that arrogance Riddler is known for but his scene in the morgue was awesome!!

----------


## Tupiaz

> Perhaps not, but at the same time, he's never lied to her about where he wants certain aspects of his life positioned. And (clearly) he wants her and his job as a policeman at opposite ends of the spectrum, mostly for her own safety. Is that unhealthy and more than a tad bit condescending? Well, yeah, obviously. But he thinks that if they were positioned any closer she's that much closer to being in the line of fire, which has clearly been the case. That's for her to accept or not. If she would just make a definitive choice to either stay or leave instead of just being angry or needy all the time, I think fan reaction might change.


When there is miscommunication in a relationship they will rarely end from one day to another. It is not like she or he has been cheating where you can break it of. There is miscummincation and therefore the relationship will have up and downs and not a clear cut because people will try to be in a relationship where they love their partner.




> Cops aren't allowed to discuss cases with civilians. She knew what she was getting into when they started dating and yet she still demands attention 24/7. It's ridiculous.


You honesty believe that cops don't speak about what happened with their day at the dinner table like all other peoples do. Attention 24/7? No, she called him once and got cut short. She has doing the season seen her husband being stressed out and distancing him self so of cause she wants to talk with him because she cares.

----------


## ispacehead

> You honesty believe that cops don't speak about what happened with their day at the dinner table like all other peoples do. Attention 24/7? No, she called him once and got cut short


 I actually know quite a few cops.

 Most cases the last thing in the world they want to do is talk about work.

 Particularly murder police or major crimes.

 He's a driven man with a very difficult job. Much like Bruce in the future just too busy for a relationship.

----------


## phonogram12

> So she either has to accept second place with a man she is supposed to be partners with and suck it up, or ditch a man she's agreed to marry with the same kind of nonchalance one uses when cancelling their car insurance? Relationships are messy, complicated, and never ever work out quite the way we thought it would. To just expect her to make a choice like that at the drop of a hat is unreasonable, and would turn her into a far more two-dimensional character.


Never said she should be nonchalant or make this decision at the drop of a hat. I never once typed those words. I also disagree that that would make her a two-dimensional character. If anything, it would make her a bit more tolerable. Certainly all her neediness, passive aggressiveness, and ultimatums aren't doing the trick.

Also, only she has the ability to let someone feel bad about herself. Not Jim, just her. No one should have to stay in a relationship if they're not happy.

----------


## phonogram12

> When there is miscommunication in a relationship they will rarely end from one day to another. It is not like she or he has been cheating where you can break it of. There is miscummincation and therefore the relationship will have up and downs and not a clear cut because people will try to be in a relationship where they love their partner.


Except I really don't see how there's been any miscommunication (at least recently). He's clearly told her that there are just certain things he cannot discuss with her because of his job. She can't accept that and it doesn't seem he's going to change his mind about that any time soon (mostly for her own safety).

At this point, it's on her.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Except I really don't see how there's been any miscommunication (at least recently). He's clearly told her that there are just certain things he cannot discuss with her because of his job. She can't accept that and it doesn't seem he's going to change his mind about that any time soon (mostly for her own safety).
> 
> At this point, it's on her.


It isn't. He is taking the problem with him back home which is her problem. If he don't want to talk about he should go to a psychologist and talk about it so he doesn't drag his job with him home. If you don't want to talk about your job at home. Down show it and drag it with you. You can expect people will not care about when you are clearly effected by it. 




> I actually know quite a few cops.
> 
>  Most cases the last thing in the world they want to do is talk about work.
> 
>  Particularly murder police or major crimes.
> 
>  He's a driven man with a very difficult job. Much like Bruce in the future just too busy for a relationship.


However it is not because she wants details about murder cases it is because she wants to know what is bugging him which is the whole Falcone story which he should have told her about so she knows want danger she is up against. Saying that the city is dangerous is pretty unspecific. Not saying what is going on was what put her in real danger has she known all the details from the start it would probably have been a different outcome (logical not story wise).

----------


## phonogram12

> It isn't. He is taking the problem with him back home which is her problem. If he don't want to talk about he should go to a psychologist and talk about it so he doesn't drag his job with him home. If you don't want to talk about your job at home. Down show it and drag it with you. You can expect people will not care about when you are clearly effected by it.


He really hasn't taken the problem back home with him in awhile. She's mostly insisting that he talk about it, which he doesn't want to do for obvious reasons.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> He really hasn't taken the problem back home with him in awhile. She's mostly insisting that he talk about it, which he doesn't want to do for obvious reasons.


after the cobblepot incident she shouldn't force him to spill the beans on everything because she'll just try to make things right and end up getting herself killed

----------


## ispacehead

> However it is not because she wants details about murder cases it is because she wants to know what is bugging him which is the whole Falcone story which he should have told her about so she knows want danger she is up against.


I don't really see what you're getting at.

It's a pretty stereotypical display of male communication issues. Men go to their caves to sort out their problems. They don't have tea parties.

It's not about murder cases, it's about how overwhelming and huge this problem is. Gordon is outnumbered. Alone. Seemed like he was pretty sure he was going to die last episode. He's going through heavy stuff.

Watching this episode again, it seems even more abrupt that Barbara leaves, but once again...a stereotypical display.

----------


## Abishai100

I think I know why so much attention is being given to the development of the Penguin, which, by the way, is being very well-presented and portrayed by the gifted Robin Lord Taylor.

If you think about it, Penguin represents something very intriguing and troubling about the modern city --- cynicism.

While other Batman villains such as Two-Face (a maniac cop) and the Ventriloquist (a gangster demon) also capture basic curiosities about city corruption, Penguin is particularly focused on human traffic ghoulishness (i.e., fortune gluttony).

I remember a neat episode of "Batman: The Animated Series" (Fox TV) in which Penguin hosted a special lavish ice-skating charity event guised as some kind of a seedy campaign scheme and which was intruded on by an even more nasty scheme of the anxious Joker.

I can see Penguin managing a hellish druglord controlled Las Vegas styled gambling ring operation just for the pure 'cityscape cynicism' of it.

The storyboard writers of "Gotham" (Fox TV) seem extra-interested in Penguin's roots of anti-city consciousness.





 :EEK!: 

Robin Lord Taylor


penguin.jpg

----------


## WraizeM

> I think I know why so much attention is being given to the development of the Penguin, which, by the way, is being very well-presented and portrayed by the gifted Robin Lord Taylor.
> 
> If you think about it, Penguin represents something very intriguing and troubling about the modern city --- cynicism.
> 
> While other Batman villains such as Two-Face (a maniac cop) and the Ventriloquist (a gangster demon) also capture basic curiosities about city corruption, Penguin is particularly focused on human traffic ghoulishness (i.e., fortune gluttony).
> 
> I remember a neat episode of "Batman: The Animated Series" (Fox TV) in which Penguin hosted a special lavish ice-skating charity event guised as some kind of a seedy campaign scheme and which was intruded on by an even more nasty scheme of the anxious Joker.
> 
> I can see Penguin managing a hellish druglord controlled Las Vegas styled gambling ring operation just for the pure 'cityscape cynicism' of it.
> ...


I agree with everything but also think they will use him to bring in other characters like Harvey Dent or even help bring Ridler out of Nygma. I also have a feeling we will see a young Harley Quinn at some point.

----------


## Cosmic Spider

Personally, I'm glad that Barbara is taking a break. That woman irritates the hell out of me.

She keeps demanding that Jim tell her all about his work; And when he does... She calls the newpapers, She tells Montoya. When Jim sends her safely out of town; Barbara very neatly checkmates Him by turning herself into the very people Jim is trying to protect Her from.

It's obvious that this Woman isn't smart enough to be the Wife/Partner of a Cop or a Soldier or anyone else whose work is dangerous or requires discretion

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Personally, I'm glad that Barbara is taking a break. That woman irritates the hell out of me.
> 
> She keeps demanding that Jim tell her all about his work; And when he does... She calls the newpapers, She tells Montoya. When Jim sends her safely out of town; Barbara very neatly checkmates Him by turning herself into the very people Jim is trying to protect Her from.
> 
> It's obvious that this Woman isn't smart enough to be the Wife/Partner of a Cop or a Soldier or anyone else whose work is dangerous or requires discretion


Completely agree and it doesn't help that the actress who plays her is pretty bad. Luckily, they seemed to have the most interesting characters nailed, acting wise so I can forgive them casting the first person they see as Barbara.

----------


## Tupiaz

All I have to say about next episode is tension and it is every where:






> I don't really see what you're getting at.
> 
> It's a pretty stereotypical display of male communication issues. Men go to their caves to sort out their problems. They don't have tea parties.
> 
> It's not about murder cases, it's about how overwhelming and huge this problem is. Gordon is outnumbered. Alone. Seemed like he was pretty sure he was going to die last episode. He's going through heavy stuff.
> 
> Watching this episode again, it seems even more abrupt that Barbara leaves, but once again...a stereotypical display.


But how is that Barbara's fault? Besides Gordon has with the last two episodes built some trustworthy colleagues. It is only going to expand with Harvey on board.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> All I have to say about next episode is tension and it is every where:


Ugh, such a strawman position. Should they be sparring with knives and guns, Selina? Really think that's the best way?

----------


## Abishai100

I'm going to propose that "Gotham" (Fox TV) offer up a storyline such as this in the near future:



"Two-Face, Joker, Scarecrow, Penguin, and Poison Ivy gang up on the Gotham City police department, because they are convinced that Jim Gordon has been acting unethically and taking too many matters into his own hands.  These maniacs are convinced that Gotham's sense of self-righteousness has gone out of hand.  They believe that they embody Gotham's real jurisprudence future.  Can Gordon's forces coordinate everything wisely so as to guide such radical sentiments toward the right place --- Arkham Asylum?"



We've already seen an intricate introduction of Penguin, and Ivy Pepper (the future Poison Ivy) was introduced in episode 1 of "Gotham" (Fox TV).  Maybe Ivy decides to become a self-proclaimed crusader at a young age and in doing so, becomes the right foil to the developing Catwoman (portrayed nicely so far by ‎Camren Bicondova).  Harvey Dent has also been alluded to, so all we need are the right introductions of Joker and Scarecrow.  Maybe they can be introduced as budding vigilantes in this early-Gotham 'dark crusade' scheme, while the young Bruce Wayne shrewdly watches the goings-on of Gotham in the news.

There's no reason that such a storyline can not feel vital or entertaining since we're also viewing the clever development of Edward Nygma (the future Riddler) in the background (also portrayed nicely so far by Cory Michael Smith).

There's just a tad too much showtime so far on "Gotham" (Fox TV) about random vigilantes.  It seems like the development of Penguin is not satisfying enough to imagine Batman's future Gotham City being over-run by vigilantism-maniacal super-villains such as Ra's al Ghul.  However, I admit that those two eerie youth kidnappers in episode 2 (portrayed with fun by Lily Taylor and Frank Whaley) were a nice addition.

I've been lobbying for an appearance by Ra's al Ghul (perhaps portrayed by an actor such as David Duchovny).





 :EEK!: 


The Balloonman



scarecrow.jpg

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I'm going to propose that "Gotham" (Fox TV) offer up a storyline such as this in the near future:
> 
> 
> 
> "Two-Face, Joker, Scarecrow, Penguin, and Poison Ivy gang up on the Gotham City police department, because they are convinced that Jim Gordon has been acting unethically and taking too many matters into his own hands.  These maniacs are convinced that Gotham's sense of self-righteousness has gone out of hand.  They believe that they embody Gotham's real jurisprudence future.  Can Gordon's forces coordinate everything wisely so as to guide such radical sentiments toward the right place --- Arkham Asylum?"
> 
> 
> 
> We've already seen an intricate introduction of Penguin, and Ivy Pepper (the future Poison Ivy) was introduced in episode 1 of "Gotham" (Fox TV).  Maybe Ivy decides to become a self-proclaimed crusader at a young age and in doing so, becomes the right foil to the developing Catwoman (portrayed nicely so far by ‎Camren Bicondova).  Harvey Dent has also been alluded to, so all we need are the right introductions of Joker and Scarecrow.  Maybe they can be introduced as budding vigilantes in this early-Gotham 'dark crusade' scheme, while the young Bruce Wayne shrewdly watches the goings-on of Gotham in the news.


Harvey Dent hasn't even appeared yet. And Poison Ivy was like an 8 year old girl. This would not be the near future, maybe a season 3 plot.





> I've been lobbying for an appearance by Ra's al Ghul (perhaps portrayed by an actor such as David Duchovny).


Ra's Al Ghul is indian. And appearing on Arrow, so he won't show up on Gotham any time soon.

----------


## Randumbz

> Ugh, such a strawman position. Should they be sparring with knives and guns, Selina? Really think that's the best way?


I thought she meant that they fight bare knuckle.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I thought she meant that they fight bare knuckle.


That helps them how? Literally the only tangible difference would that Bruce gets looked at weird when he comes to school with skinned knuckles and black eyes and bruises.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> That helps them how? Literally the only tangible difference would that Bruce gets looked at weird when he comes to school with skinned knuckles and black eyes and bruises.


So you propose he carry boxing gloves wherever he goes?

She's calling it as it is.

----------


## godisawesome

Ideally, in the episode LoveCraft, when Bruce and Selina are supposed to be running away from assassins, we'll see that the boxing lessons do have practical application in the way Bruce Lee once put it: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times." Alfred just having Bruce practice the same rythym for punching at least gives him a practical reflex of some quality. Selina can still show more experience and pragmatism with her clawing skills, but seeing Bruce use disciplined  strikes even when over his head would be good.

The main point of the gloves here is to practice without Bruce hurting his hands. And I'm sure our Alfred will have other tactics to teach him; they've established he's got skills, and there's nothing overly fancy about pugilism.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> So you propose he carry boxing gloves wherever he goes?
> 
> She's calling it as it is.


I propose she not take offense with using gloves for training.

----------


## Nick Miller

Baby Selina was obv being sarcastic, geez guys.

Alfred is the worst Butler, lol. When a guest makes a request, don't be an ass. Does he want Baby Selina to go hungry?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I propose she not take offense with using gloves for training.


She wasn't taking offense, just pointing out that it's useless in the real world. Nothing false about her statement. Street kids like her don't have the benefit of protective gloves when they learned to fight. And yes they end up with skinned knuckles, black eyes and bruises. But that's the real world for you.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> She wasn't taking offense, just pointing out that it's useless in the real world. Nothing false about her statement. Street kids like her don't have the benefit of protective gloves when they learned to fight. And yes they end up with skinned knuckles, black eyes and bruises. But that's the real world for you.


Yeah, when they fight in real life. Not because they refuse to protect themselves when boxing at the gym. And training hardly suddenly becomes pointless because they got gloves on. It's not like Bruce is already ready to be Batman in terms of physical fitness and martial arts form and _all_ he has to learn is how to take a punch. And hey, I don't think getting his knuckles getting skinned and stuff from beating the trash out of Bruce is something Alfred is obligated or eager to do. There's only so much you can ask of him.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Yeah, when they fight in real life. Not because they refuse to protect themselves when boxing at the gym. And training hardly suddenly becomes pointless because they got gloves on. It's not like Bruce is already ready to be Batman in terms of physical fitness and martial arts form and _all_ he has to learn is how to take a punch. And hey, I don't think getting his knuckles getting skinned and stuff from beating the trash out of Bruce is something Alfred is obligated or eager to do. There's only so much you can ask of him.


YOU think he needs training because YOU know he'll need it to become Batman. She, on the other hand, doesn't know that. It's perfectly natural for her to be curious why he needs to learn to fight with his fists when he doesn't really need it (other than for fending off a few bullies. I can imagine she's had to face worse). When he says he it's for Gotham, she simply points out the truth: It's going to take a lot more than faux fighting with gloves to survive in that city. So I don't see why you're upset with her statement.

In any case, looks like Selina's going to be his tour guide around the bowels of Gotham. Am anticipating a lot of butt hurt fanboy reactions to Selina teaching Bruce a thing or two.

----------


## ispacehead

> But how is that Barbara's fault? Besides Gordon has with the last two episodes built some trustworthy colleagues.


It's only Barbara's fault for holding his attitude against him. This is a pretty traditional depiction of this type of relationship. As readers, we know the two won't stay together. The show is providing us an explanation as to why.

Gordon's accomplishments within the GCPD are only going to drive him on.

----------


## godisawesome

> YOU think he needs training because YOU know he'll need it to become Batman. She, on the other hand, doesn't know that. It's perfectly natural for her to be curious why he needs to learn to fight with his fists when he doesn't really need it (other than for fending off a few bullies. I can imagine she's had to face worse). When he says he it's for Gotham, she simply points out the truth: It's going to take a lot more than faux fighting with gloves to survive in that city. So I don't see why you're upset with her statement.
> 
> *In any case, looks like Selina's going to be his tour guide around the bowels of Gotham. Am anticipating a lot of butt hurt fanboy reactions to Selina teaching Bruce a thing or two.*


I'm actually looking forward to that. It's economical from a storytelling perspective, allows for interaction between two of our so far mostly neglected actors, and it allows them to embrace a combination of the "Bruce explores life on the underside of Gotham" and the "Batman chases Catwoman free running scene."

----------


## DurararaFTW

> YOU think he needs training because YOU know he'll need it to become Batman. She, on the other hand, doesn't know that. It's perfectly natural for her to be curious why he needs to learn to fight with his fists when he doesn't really need it (other than for fending off a few bullies. I can imagine she's had to face worse). When he says he it's for Gotham, she simply points out the truth: It's going to take a lot more than faux fighting with gloves to survive in that city. So I don't see why you're upset with her statement.


_Whatever_ it is for, neither Bruce nor Alfred claimed that this is all that is needed. But you have to start somewhere. The last episode established that Bruce can't hold his own in a fight against someone bigger then he is. What would be accomplished from Alfred taking the gloves off and kicking his ass in earnest? He'd be lying on the floor in two seconds, Nothing learned, nothing gained.

----------


## Handsome men don't lose fights

> Oh please now Bruce is a bully because he went to a bully's house and kicked his ass?
> A bully preys on the weak this was just sending a message that he's not the one to pick with
> Alfred did the right thing


I have to agree with that.  Kids have a tendency to delineate their "school lives" from their "real lives."  They'll act one way with their friends in a public setting, and then act differently while at home.  Going to Tommy's house to continue the 'discussion' put Tommy on edge and confused him because that's 'school stuff.'  _And then he got his ass kicked._  Now Tommy knows that there are no safe zones.

Alfred's a scary guy.  Physical reprisals with a healthy mix of psychological warfare?  No wonder Bruce grows up to be such a terror.

----------


## Handsome men don't lose fights

> Ugh, such a strawman position. Should they be sparring with knives and guns, Selina? Really think that's the best way?


Well, the first time we saw Selina in action, she ripped open a guy's eyes with her fingernails.  Her observations have value.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Well, the first time we saw Selina in action, she ripped open a guy's eyes with her fingernails.  Her observations have value.


Presumably, she didn't get the finger muscles to reach into a guy skull and retrieve his eyeballs in one fluid motion by attacking grown men in the faces from day one either. I'm sure she too had to work her way up to that.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I'm going to propose that "Gotham" (Fox TV) offer up a storyline such as this in the near future:
> 
> 
> 
> "Two-Face, Joker, Scarecrow, Penguin, and Poison Ivy gang up on the Gotham City police department, because they are convinced that Jim Gordon has been acting unethically and taking too many matters into his own hands.  These maniacs are convinced that Gotham's sense of self-righteousness has gone out of hand.  They believe that they embody Gotham's real jurisprudence future.  Can Gordon's forces coordinate everything wisely so as to guide such radical sentiments toward the right place --- Arkham Asylum?"


Harvey dent seems to be the person going an unethical route if you see the clip. It also fits the character better. It is most logical if Poison Ivy was tied to Bruce because of the age.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> _Whatever_ it is for, neither Bruce nor Alfred claimed that this is all that is needed. But you have to start somewhere. The last episode established that Bruce can't hold his own in a fight against someone bigger then he is. What would be accomplished from Alfred taking the gloves off and kicking his ass in earnest? He'd be lying on the floor in two seconds, Nothing learned, nothing gained.


You're taking her comment too literally and missing the point of that scene (which is surprising cuz this show ain't all that deep). She's not telling him to fight bare knuckles with Alfred, but that if he really wants to learn to survive in Gotham, he needs to venture beyond his manicured lawn and get himself out there. Given what we know of Episode 10 (stills and write up), Bruce takes her advice.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I am so loving Alfred's parenting style right now.  Bruce basically is an adult at this point, and Alfred is realizing that.  Here's a smart, tough kid that needs to reach his full potential rather than be sheltered from the world.




> What I'm finding ridiculous and a bit unsettling is that this kid stayed in town., with no one to look after him other than the Family butler. Where's the rest of his family? he's developing into the batman at this early age, and it's just uncomfortable for me to watch.


Someone put in a call to Aunt Harriet!




> The scenes with Penguin's mother go on way too long.


I think so too and, as others have said, she is a little difficult to understand.




> Finally nice to see Fish get something of a character moment with her "mother" "aunt" or whoever that old black lady is.


I like how the story she told seemed to kind of parallel Bruce's situation and his vow...only for her to admit it was mostly a lie a second later.  Who was that woman and how much of Fish's story was the truth, I wonder?

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Someone put in a call to Aunt Harriet!


Being a total dork, I'll point out that Aunt Harriet was actually Dick's aunt not Bruce's.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And LOL at people taking Selina's comment so seriously. She was being _catty_.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Being a total dork, I'll point out that Aunt Harriet was actually Dick's aunt not Bruce's.


As a Batman fan for 45 years, that's the first time I ever heard that.

----------


## Abishai100

I like the presentation of Catwoman in "Gotham" (Fox TV) so far, but personally, I still haven't decided what kind of contribution a character such as Catwoman is supposed to make.

I mean, according to the storyboards from various sources, sometimes she's an asset for Batman, and sometimes she's a liability.

Batman does of course have real allies --- Robin, Batgirl, Alfred, Nightwing (etc.) --- but the stories about the criminally insane in Gotham City lend themselves rather conveniently to ideas about betrayal (i.e., Two-Face).

That's why I want to see Ra's al Ghul make an appearance in "Gotham" (Fox TV).  Ra's is the only Batman nemesis to really represent Gotham City's brooding contemplation of high-profile terrorism as it relates to the challenges associated with criminal insanity.  Rogue terrorists (i.e., those working outside the agreed confines of the IRA) are considered self-serving rogues, radicals, and rascals (i.e., just plain nuts).  Ra's brings all these ideas together; plus, he revitalizes himself from that weird water source.

Ra's has worldly backgrounds, but I'd like to see a 'normal' actor such as David Duchovny portray him.




 :EEK!: 

Ra's al Ghul


spook.jpg

----------


## DurararaFTW

> You're taking her comment too literally and missing the point of that scene (which is surprising cuz this show ain't all that deep). She's not telling him to fight bare knuckles with Alfred, but that if he really wants to learn to survive in Gotham, he needs to venture beyond his manicured lawn and get himself out there. Given what we know of Episode 10 (stills and write up), Bruce takes her advice.


Clearly living on the streets of Gotham all her life hasn't saved Selina from having to learn how to defend herself from physical attacks. And again, I don't see evidence that Bruce and Alfred genuinely thought that boxing was all that Bruce would ever need until Selina entered into their world and showed them the light.

----------


## Abishai100

In many ways, "Gotham" (Fox TV) is America's art totem symbolism response to the social hype surrounding England's fabled Scotland Yard police.

America is not like England, and America's currents of populism festivity (i.e., Halloween) give rise to culture fantasies about vigilantism (i.e., Hell's Angels).  Certainly, "Gotham" (Fox TV) is a reflection of such currents.

America has of course boasted real-life 'supercops' such as Eliot Ness and Pat Garrett.  So it shouldn't be a surprise that "Gotham" (Fox TV) is becoming such a comic book fan favorite.

I think the show has ground to cover to catch up to the prestige of "Arrow" (The CW), but I think it's making fine progress, and I'm excited about tonight's episode.  I think "The Balloonman" (S1, Episode 3) is perhaps my favorite so far.

Did you know that a number of American cities are considering funding their police departments with eco-friendly electric cars?

Boston, Massachusetts has already talked about a fleet of eco-friendly taxi-cab cars.





 :EEK!: 

Street Justice (TV)



balloonman.jpg

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

hoping tonight's episode is better than last week's episode....didn't much care for the office fight segment and the sub-plot was where my interest was focused

----------


## daBronzeBomma

A little surprised that anyone would think Bruce Wayne, of all people in all of fiction, even (esp?) a young freshly-traumatized version of him, would NOT resort to violence as a means of conflict resolution.

You want restraint?  Let me introduce you to Clark Kent over here.

You want reformation?  Take a look at Diana over there.

You want retribution, with theatricality a plus?  Young or old, Bruce Wayne is your guy.

Plus, the Batverse always tends to take a dim view of psychologists and psychiatrists (see Hugo Strange and Joker's bleeding heart liberal Doc from Frank Miller's DKR).  Bruce stubbornly won't get anything out of therapy, now or later.

Loved that episode of GOTHAM.  Can't wait for tonight's!

----------


## PretenderNX01

> As a Batman fan for 45 years, that's the first time I ever heard that.


Well, huh. It's out there:

_Harriet Cooper, best known simply as Aunt Harriet from the Batman television series, is a character that first appeared in the comic book Detective Comics #328 (June 1964).Created by writer Bill Finger and artist Sheldon Moldoff, the character is the maternal aunt of Bruce Wayne's ward, Dick Grayson._
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Harriet_Cooper

_Characters:Batman [Bruce Wayne]; Robin [Dick Grayson]; Aunt Harriet (Dick's aunt; intro); Alfred Pennyworth (apparent death); Commissioner James Gordon; VILLAINS: Tri-State Gang [Paul Pardee; Duke]_
http://www.comics.org/issue/18452/

_Harriet Cooper is one of Gotham City's elite because her nephew is Dick Grayson, who is the ward of millionaire Bruce Wayne. She devotes much of her time to work with community groups, such as the Gotham City Film Decency League. She is also a member of the Gotham City Gourmet Society, an organization she is quite active in. For instance, at one time she was in charge of their annual tea-tasting. But being a well-rounded person, she also enjoys a good fight (as in a boxing match)._
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Harriet..._(Madge_Blake)

_Real Name	Richard "Dick" Grayson
Current Alias	Nightwing
Aliases	Robin
Relatives	John Grayson (father, deceased), Mary Cooper Grayson (mother, deceased), Harriet Cooper (aunt), Bruce Wayne (guardian)_
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Grayson_(Earth-One)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well, huh. It's out there:


I wasn't disputing what you posted, only that I never heard it before. It definitely surprised me.

----------


## Superman_The Man Of Steel

> A little surprised that anyone would think Bruce Wayne, of all people in all of fiction, even (esp?) a young freshly-traumatized version of him, would NOT resort to violence as a means of conflict resolution.
> 
> You want restraint?  Let me introduce you to Clark Kent over here.
> 
> You want reformation?  Take a look at Diana over there.
> 
> You want retribution, with theatricality a plus?  Young or old, Bruce Wayne is your guy.
> 
> Plus, the Batverse always tends to take a dim view of psychologists and psychiatrists (see Hugo Strange and Joker's bleeding heart liberal Doc from Frank Miller's DKR).  Bruce stubbornly won't get anything out of therapy, now or later.
> ...


Wrong. Batman should NOT be portrayed as mentally unstable and driven by rage and revenge. He should not be one step away from being a villain. This portrayal has been done to death.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Wrong. Batman should NOT be portrayed as mentally unstable and driven by rage and revenge. He should not be one step away from being a villain. This portrayal has been done to death.


It's a fairly recent interpretation, too. He wasn't that way for most of his existence.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Can't wait to see what happens tonight.

----------


## Crimson Shadow

Wow... this show went full Smallville. I thought it would take at least a few seasons (if it made it that far) but they managed it in only half a season.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 9 "Harvey Dent" The case with the bomber was kind of interesting but I thought the scenes with Bruce and Selina were hard to watch.  I did like that Alfred didn't interrupt their food fight though.

----------


## tabo61

I liked how the episode ended with the beginning of Arkham. Jim Gordon has to deal with all the madness in Gotham and on top of that his girl is cheating on him.

----------


## Godzilla2099

Tonight's Episode.  Not Bad

- Cobblepot: still a crafty little bastard
- Nygma:  Warming up to him
- Bruce and Selina:  Great Chemistry 
- Harvey:  Not sure about him yet.  I like how the show already displays his mental issues
- Montoya:  Ho-bag and a half.  No wonder she was happy earlier.  She got what she wanted.  lololololololol at the posters thinking she 'redeemed' herself
- Falcone:  I expect him to be pissed off
- Barbara:  She makes Harley Quinn look like Einstein.  Jim can do better

----------


## Nite-Wing

Yep I knew I disliked renee for a reason. Only a crazy ex could look her coworker in the eye while she's hooking up with his girlfriend.
Barbara....whatever her writing this season has been abysmal. 
Its a good thing the rest of this show is so interesting because the focus on Gordon has probably been the weakest part  of this show

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Lol, take that Ann Nocenti!

----------


## marvelguy25

> I liked how the episode ended with the beginning of Arkham. Jim Gordon has to deal with all the madness in Gotham and on top of that his girl is cheating on him.


With another girl! How messed up is that!?!

----------


## marvelguy25

So anyway, another fantastic episode! Harvey dent I feel should be two face in this show seeing as how whenever he snaps you cannot wait to he releases his inner demon and enigma will definitely be built up to destroy Gotham PD and gotham to the ground and cobblepott I cannot wait to see how much damage he'll cause. I cannot believe the finale is next week. I always thought that it could've been longer.

And poor Jim. He gets threatened, blackmailed, hunted down, cause some major damage, and a top of all that his girlfriend left him with another girl. How sad is his life. And I thought Peter Parker had it bad :Frown:

----------


## Godzilla2099

> With another girl! How messed up is that!?!


I wonder what the odds of Jim meeting another woman named Barbara?  I now shudder thinking about that creature giving birth.

----------


## marvelguy25

> I wonder what the odds of Jim meeting another woman named Barbara?  I now shudder thinking about that creature giving birth.


I wonder if he will have the balls enough to get into a fist fight with Renee. Hell, Barbara would be shocked to find out that her mother was in a relationship with another woman

----------


## Tupiaz

> Wrong. Batman should NOT be portrayed as mentally unstable and driven by rage and revenge. He should not be one step away from being a villain. This portrayal has been done to death.


That Batman could have been his villains but isn't is what makes him interesting. He has the background like many other villains but he is not.That is an interesting aspect and you can reflect the villains in Batman or vice versa. It creates a bond between the villains and Batman and that is why the portrayal works. 




> It's a fairly recent interpretation, too. He wasn't that way for most of his existence.


If you will call more than 1/3 of his existence new then yeah.

----------


## gsnake007

Jim is apparntly gonna hook up with leslie thompkins played by morena baccarin and she is a major step from barbara to hell with her ass

----------


## godisawesome

There's an interesting article for people who dislike the writing for Barbara on this show on Cracked. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-unwrit..*****-following/

Basically, the first article says that Hollywood writers are convinced that the "strong wife" character has to fit certain cliches, and those cliches end up being naturally aggravating and irritating to certain viewers.

And I can kind of see why they'd rewrite the character this way: Year One Barbara is a good woman, but she ultimately seems underdeveloped because she's too good for Jim, and very much seperate from his work life. And since TV thrives off conflict more than anything when it comes to its characters, they gave her conflict. And unfortunately, it hit all the things that are wrong about the type on Cracked's list.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> Jim is apparntly gonna hook up with leslie thompkins played by morena baccarin and she is a major step from barbara to hell with her ass


You know that Barbara has to play a role big enough to keep her name in the Gordon family. 

However, she has been barely likable as a character, and cheating the protagonist never helped any character to become more sympathetic. So, there's that.




> There's an interesting article for people who dislike the writing for Barbara on this show on Cracked. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-unwrit..*****-following/
> 
> Basically, the first article says that Hollywood writers are convinced that the "strong wife" character has to fit certain cliches, and those cliches end up being naturally aggravating and irritating to certain viewers.
> 
> And I can kind of see why they'd rewrite the character this way: Year One Barbara is a good woman, but she ultimately seems underdeveloped because she's too good for Jim, and very much seperate from his work life. And since TV thrives off conflict more than anything when it comes to its characters, they gave her conflict. And unfortunately, it hit all the things that are wrong about the type on Cracked's list.


Well, I don't perceive Year One Barbara as too good for Gordon. She's ok, but kind of a drag. Forget the cheating and Skyler White is a perfect example of the same. On the surface both are good, but the problem is that they can't relate to the hero's cause. This is why nobody really hates Sarah in YO, but Barbara cheating in Gotham [i'm willing to bet] makes her an ungrateful b*tch in the eyes of most people. I bet that despite the name problem, everybody is going to root for Leslie, who'll likely get Jim's cause. 

I do dislike the Barbara character, but instead of droping her, I hoped writers fixed her, it's them who got her wrong. She's not destined to be the love of Jim's life, but it sucks to see her this way. 

I bet she is preggo and that she'll die after giving birth to twins.

----------


## Rac7d*

I Dont know much about Gordon wife int he comic, but I have hated Bab this entire season. I was hoping she would get herself killed, but at the same time I know someone has to give birth to Barbra and James jr. That the only thing about her

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If you will call more than 1/3 of his existence new then yeah.


Well, I did say "fairly" new and Batman hasn't been that way for a third of his existence, anyway.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Well, I did say "fairly" new and Batman hasn't been that way for a third of his existence, anyway.


Yeah it has. Whatever Batman was sane or not was something that was at done as early as in Arkham Asylum by Grant Morrison which is from October 89. Batman being revengeful is being seen as early as Year Two from 87.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah it has. Whatever Batman was sane or not was something that was at done as early as in Arkham Asylum by Grant Morrison which is from October 89. Batman being revengeful is being seen as early as Year Two from 87.


I was talking about him being not that much different than the villains he fights. That's a fairly new interpretation and one I'm not crazy about at all.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> Wrong. Batman should NOT be portrayed as mentally unstable and driven by rage and revenge. He should not be one step away from being a villain. This portrayal has been done to death.


Wrong.

Batman HAS been portrayed as not-quite-all-there for a while now.  Ever since THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS by Frank Miller in 1986.  And it continued since, especially with Tim Burton's BATMAN movie in 1989.  Just about every act he does as Batman would leave him charged with so many crimes if he were ever actually caught: breaking and entering, aggravated assault & battery, damage of private and public property, disturbing the peace, harassment, stalking, etc).

But that's part of the appeal.  Just as Batman kicking Superman's ass has been done to death, but there's no sign of that train stopping anytime soon either (cue 2016's DAWN OF JUSTICE).  Whenever anything, be it Batman's near-psychosis or BatsVSupes has been done to death, it's because, for better or worse, it clearly resonates with a large audience.  Batman's been portrayed as a near-psychopath for over 28 years (out of 75) and counting now.  It has become part of his mythos, whether you like it or not.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> I was talking about him being not that much different than the villains he fights. That's a fairly new interpretation and one I'm not crazy about at all.


Disagree.  

Going back to THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (to which the entire Batverse must bow down to, including Zack Snyder apparently), Frank Miller described Bruce Wayne as a "clearly a terrorist, but fortunately for us, he picks the right targets".  That was in 1986, this is now 2014.  That description has stuck for 28 out of 75 years (and counting).  That's over 1/3 of his existence.  That vibe was clearly present in Tim Burton's BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS movies.

Back on track:

This week's episode of GOTHAM was a bit of a letdown.  I liked some bits: Penguin showing off his own detective skills, the show taking a fairly  outspoken stand on the shabby treatment of the mental ill (aka BlackGate), the interaction between Bruce, Selina and Alfred was a nice change of pace ... though I hated their too-cutesy food fight.  I know I said GOTHAM should be subtitled BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE, but I didn't mean that literally.  

I do like the idea that this Selina Kyle will be even more central to GOTHAM's future Batman than any version of Lois Lane ever was to Superman.  And that Selina is a few years older than Bruce.  Although why is she talking like she's from the 1920s?  She didn't sound like that before.

The boxing scenes with Alfred and Bruce didn't live up to last week's promo for this episode.  Why is Bruce boxing in dress clothes?  Doesn't he own a pair of shorts and a t-shirt and gym shoes?

I really dislike that Harvey Dent.  All sizzle, no steak.  Way too much foreshadowing with the literal shadowing of half his face.  He should be in middle school and be Bruce's age, not 10-15 years older.  

The villain (whose name I've already forgotten) was nothing special, other than the show drawing a distinction between the mentally unwell and the true sociopaths.

That ending:  Just when I thought I could start liking this Renee Montoya and that I couldn't dislike this Barbara Keane any more, I'm proven wrong on both counts.  I despise cheaters of any stripe: male, female, trans, straight, gay, bi, whatever.  Poor showing, ladies.  

Barbara Keane is not important to the Batverse anyway, but surely the showrunners could have picked a different path for her.  I cannot see this version being Batgirl's mom (although she is totally that sociopathic James Gordon Junior's mom).  Montoya is the character getting the real screwjob here, as she IS more important to the Batverse.  Right now, both of these female characters are my least favorite on the show.

Show's a bit of a roller-coaster ride so far.  But it's still the best thing on Monday nights (which says a lot about Monday prime-time programming).

----------


## Nite-Wing

Next episode looks like alfred gets to have his very own version of Taken. Stuff like this should have been happening since the 2nd episode. Kidnapping plots and attempts on young bruce's life would justify having such a dangerous butler like alfred.
selina and bruce is kinda cute on this show but only because they are so much younger when they met

----------


## neonrideraryeh

Damnit, Montoya why you do this?  Yeah, after dealing with her being unreasonable for most of the show and then finally being on Gordon's side, I thought she would actually become an ally.  Instead, she takes advantage of somebody.  These characters are making it very hard to like them.

Honestly, I'm enjoying the Bruce/Selina stuff more than the other stuff because I want the training to eventually be Batman and this gives Selina something interesting to do rather than randomly show up in episodes pickpocketing somebody.  Even Penguin is getting on my nerves now with the overplaying of his creepiness (they could serve to be a little more subtle.  It's like yeah we get it already, he's a wacky guy).  The Fish dialogue is still the worst dialogue ever and I really want her to just piss off some thug who then just shoots her and gives her a not so glorious death.

I liked the mentally ill guy wanting to get caught cos he didn't want his bombs hurting people.  That was more interesting than silly proto bat villains.  That was good.  I'd say it makes this episode one of the better ones as for the most part, the dialogue was alright.  The last few episodes have been much better than the earlier ones, but it's still not grabbing me as much as the other comic shows I watch.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Disagree.  
> 
> Going back to THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (to which the entire Batverse must bow down to, including Zack Snyder apparently), Frank Miller described Bruce Wayne as a "clearly a terrorist, but fortunately for us, he picks the right targets".  That was in 1986, this is now 2014.  That description has stuck for 28 out of 75 years (and counting).  That's over 1/3 of his existence.  That vibe was clearly present in Tim Burton's BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS movies.


Except Batman was not universally portrayed that way in all that time. Again, it's in recent years where we see the close-to-sociopathic Batman pop up the most.

----------


## Miraclo__Pill

> Except Batman was not universally portrayed that way in all that time. Again, it's in recent years where we see the close-to-sociopathic Batman pop up the most.


Precisely. TDKR wasn't the cannon for Batman's mental instability in the years to follow Miller's story. The first aspects of this come as the aftermath of A Death in the Family and they were soon resolved when Tim Drake came on board.

----------


## PretenderNX01

You gotta be a little touched in the head to dress up like a bat and launch your own war on crime. I wouldn't say near villain level but like many CEOs and politicians there's a sociopathy needed to be that driven.




> Damnit, Montoya why you do this?  Yeah, after dealing with her being unreasonable for most of the show and then finally being on Gordon's side, I thought she would actually become an ally.  Instead, she takes advantage of somebody.  These characters are making it very hard to like them.


Who's to say Barbara didn't run back to Montoya and took advantage of how lonely Renee is? It's hard to turn your feelings off for an ex, doesn't mean she isn't on Jim's side when it comes to Gotham but she still likes her ex too. In the comics Jim cheats too.




> With another girl! How messed up is that!?!


Not really messed up for a bisexual woman. She has past relationships, I'm sure he does too but hers aren't in another city so she's still conflicted.

----------


## SXVA

A bit strange to me how Barbara cheating with Renee is some sort of unredeemable sin, when Penguin brutally kills many people and is like the best thing since toast... Bullock has been corrupt to the point that he supported Gordon murdering someone in cold blood for the mafia and all of his sins are looked past, even people like Falcone and Maroni seem to get a pass for their sins...

I think the underlying point of Gotham at least initially is how twisted and corrupt Gotham is and how it effects people, most of the people i don't think are meant to be extremely likable and have flaws/sins...

While Barbara's actions aren't justified, one could empathize/sympathize with her situation and i don't think it's all on her... Gordon basically chose Gotham and his obsession with Gotham [his obsession being Gotham effecting him in a different way and like a virus also effecting Barbara through that] over her, *he was willing to die for Gotham instead of live for Barbara*. And he's not being very understanding of her in that he's been to war, and has worked as a cop and might be able to deal with these things but she hasn't, and again he seems to be choosing Gotham rather than be with her in a time where she might need someone... Renee chose her, which i could see how that might be comforting in such a context and they've had a past together and intimacy together where she might need something familiar from the past to get away from her present.

It was wrong, not trying to excuse it but i'm just saying i don't think Renee/Barbara can't be redeemed because of it and i can somewhat understand the situation all things considered.

----------


## Kid A

Harvey Dent was just awful.  Over-acted, and as usual with this show the hamfisted foreshadowing.   It's a bit premature for him to already be one accident away from becoming Two-Face.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

I thought this was far and away the best episode to date and gives me real hope going forward - the show seems to have found its footing

----------


## ispacehead

I thought this was a good episode.  A bit quiet after the last couple of big action episodes, but still great.

I enjoyed Harvey. I like that he's being portrayed as a good person. 

Not my favorite ending to an episode, as I'd hoped that plotline might just wither away, but still a good ep.

----------


## Tupiaz

> Harvey Dent was just awful.  Over-acted, and as usual with this show the hamfisted foreshadowing.   It's a bit premature for him to already be one accident away from becoming Two-Face.


If there wasn't part of him being Two-face now he wouldn't make sense as Two-face later on. Could it be handle more subtle? Sure, but it makes sense to show him being a split personality.

----------


## Powerboy

The main plot of this was pretty much nothing.  But I liked the developing spark between Bruce and Selina as well as Bruce's training.  I really didn't think we'd see much of anything in the first season on the latter.  I liked the scene where Alfred wants her to stay because, for the first time, Bruce is acting like a kid and having fun.

The stuff going on with Barbara is just soap opera.  That's the way it is.  

Also liking how things are getting even more complex.  I'm assuming Falcone will be killed and the crime structure of Gotham drastically change at the end of the season.

----------


## Red_11

> I thought this was a good episode.  A bit quiet after the last couple of big action episodes, but still great.
> 
> I enjoyed Harvey. I like that he's being portrayed as a good person. 
> 
> Not my favorite ending to an episode, as I'd hoped that plotline might just wither away, but still a good ep.


The show is definitely improving.  The last few episodes have been decent to good.  Like yourself I had hoped that Barbara would just disappear for a while, but no such luck.  The Barbara/Montoya relationship just seems so forced to me.  The show's hardly lacking in over the top drama as it is.  The Barbara/Gordon/Montoya triangle is like putting sugar on your Fruit Loops, really just not necessary.

----------


## heyevaxx

> @SXVA
> "A bit strange to me how Barbara cheating with Renee is some sort of unredeemable sin, when Penguin brutally kills many people and is like the best thing since toast... Bullock has been corrupt to the point that he supported Gordon murdering someone in cold blood for the mafia and all of his sins are looked past, even people like Falcone and Maroni seem to get a pass for their sins..."


This is a superb point SXVA that I'd like to pop psychologize on a bit. Note, this is just my opinion that I'm not claiming it as fact that applies to everyone.

I think (not *know) that most (not *all) commenters who are critical of Barbara and/or Renee are young males who are attracted to displays of power and repulsed by displays of weakness.

Renee is the discarded ex-lover of Barbara who left Renee for a man. Not only is Renee thrown aside but she looses out to a man, a big deal for a gay person. And Renee still loves and is protective of Barbara so she investigates Jim, our manly male hero. This could be seen as failure and weakness in spades on Renee's part.

Barbara loves Jim with all her heart which puts her in a bind since he can't/won't share much/all about his job. This creates loads of anxiety for Barbara which is gotta be a real turn off for many young male viewers. "She's an anchor" or "she's so stupid" or "she won't let Jim do his job" etc.

Both female characters can appear weak in the eyes of some young male viewers due to their strong "soft" emotions and actions: love, affection, anxiety, worry, concern, protectiveness, etc.

Let's talk men now! Jim is our manly, do gooding hero who is right, violent, relentless and noble. All admirable qualities in the eyes of many young male viewers. "Barbara is holding Jim back" or "Renee has no right investigating Jim" etc. 

Harv is a slob, slacker, smart-arse who doesn't play by the rules. Young male viewers should love this character! He doesn't give a poop and does what's easy and feels good. Very manly!

Despite not looking threatening like a big bruiser, Oswald is extremely dangerous. He tortures, murders and does what he wants for power. He is the classic hidden menace, not appearing tough but being uber-deadly and bent on revenge. This is super appealing to many young male viewers.

Lastly, Falcone and Maroni are the typical organized crime chieftains who use violence and the threat of violence for money and power. That's basically mana from heaven for lots of young male viewers.

So it's not surprising that Barbara/Renee get tons of heat while the Jim/Harv/Oswald/Falcone/Maroni are well enjoyed overall. And *I think it's a lot to do with many young male viewers being drawn to displays of power through violence and conversely being repulsed by "soft" emotions and relationships.*

I wonder how Barbara and Renee rate among female viewers and males over 30. I bet it's a lot better than average opinion of the total viewership.

----------


## SXVA

^ An interesting insight, thanks for sharing. I would probably agree with some of your analysis/theory especially in how and what certain people consider weak/strong within perception, and how that relates with some people. Although, i might disagree to where it's defined by age or gender as it exists currently... i don't believe that was your intention but i could see how it could be interpreted as such... i believe it to be more of sustained perception that's been passed down and accepted as standard for awhile... however, that being said i might agree to where it reveals itself more evidently in some of what you described, but not defined by.

----------


## godisawesome

The argument also makes sense when you consider the idea that demographics are probably at play when the writers come up with plotlines for Barbara and Montoya. Which could add another layer to the dislike pointed at Montoya; she used to be a character written very much for the traditional comicbook demographic, with displays of power and strength, and now she's a character tied intrinsically to the "softer" part of the show's formula.

I like to think that my main discomfort with her screen time is that it doesn't seem as good as it could be; there's been enough female characters I've enjoyed who've had flaws and traits clearly aimed at the "softer" demographic while still being enjoyable main elements of a shows formula, that I'm disappointed at the "condoning off" of segments of the show. For instance, if Iris West on Flash is also clearly aimed at the "softer demographic," I at least find her endearing and the wit in her scenes to be enjoyable. Whereas Laurel's storyline throughout Season 2 seemed so at odds with the "better" features of the show that I grew to dislike her screen time.

----------


## heyevaxx

@SXVA
I do think that it's more likely for young (maybe 13-30) male viewers would be more attracted to characters of power (violence, independence) versus characters of weakness (affection, anxiety, relationships). 

Hormones, genetics and our cultures all play a huge part in how judgements get formed. Free will and random chaos are there too but the average 18 year old male is going to have a very different set of perceptive bias' than a 40 year old woman.

To me, this could explain some of the strong negativity about Renee and Barbara.

----------


## ispacehead

> The show is definitely improving.  The last few episodes have been decent to good.  Like yourself I had hoped that Barbara would just disappear for a while, but no such luck.  The Barbara/Montoya relationship just seems so forced to me.  The show's hardly lacking in over the top drama as it is.  The Barbara/Gordon/Montoya triangle is like putting sugar on your Fruit Loops, really just not necessary.


I could definitely do without that storyline. Seems like there's plenty of tension in her relationship with Gordon without the inclusion of Montoya. 

I really think it's just a target marketing thing.

----------


## heyevaxx

I liked the episode. It was nice to see some new offerings this go round: a villain who's not campy or really even evil, Harvey Dent (our second Harvey!) and Bruce meeting Selina.

I found the villain to be sympathetic and well used (abused really). Past Gotham baddies on the show were definitely mentally and emotionally impaired but the flow of their stories and their crimes just has them defeated. Here we see the guy get plugged into the newly born Arkham and I felt a pang of sadness for him since this is not what a mentally ill criminal needs. And Arkham only gets worse.

Harvey Dent was great. I know it's a new take on Harvey (I'm reserving Harv for Bullock). He's intense, wants to improve Gotham and will bend/break rules to do it. I liked how Harvey snapped into rage mode ("I will rip you open!") and spit some on his chin. Then back to normal, smooth Harvey ("It's good to see you") and he's still got some spit glistening on his chin. Nice!

Also, it occurred to me that we have three characters with different approaches to Gotham and how to play:
Gordon: does care,    plays by the rules
Bullock: doesn't care, doesn't play by the rules
Dent:    does care,    doesn't play by the rules

Bruce and Selina: I was nervous about this because Selina is my fave comic character and I think Camren has knocked it out of the park as young Selina. And while new-to-acting Camren has acted well up to now, I wasn't sure she'd hold her own with lots of lines.

She did great! I think Selina and Bruce had excellent chemistry. I love the look on Bruce's face when he meets her; I bet he's thinking "all right!" Their rapport was nice with him being obviously attracted to her and deferential while she's dismissive and flirty.  The look on Bruce's face is great when Selina said "did you ever kiss a girl" as she gets up and walks over to him. "No." "Do you want to?" "Why, why do you ask?" "Just curious." And Alfred walks in quickly. Priceless!

I thought the food fight was fine at the end. Sure, this is a million miles away from Year One with Bruce in the East End (=red light district) getting stabbed by Holly and then knocking out Selina. But this is an excellent meet up for Bat&Cat for Gotham: they come from different words but both have experienced great loss. Bruce is attracted to Selina and she is amused/interested/threatened by Bruce and what he represents. Plus, this is Bruce at 13 meeting Selina at 15 so it was kind of cool that they finally broke down into a silly, childish food fight. It's nice to see being kids transcending class in the show: super rich vs street kid.

I can't wait to see where their relationship goes especially since I think that the sketch of the killer based on Selina's memory is fake; she may be making up that description to keep Gordon wrapped around her finger. If true, that's going to cause serious heartbreak and anger from Bruce. Classic Bat&Cat!

----------


## Randumbz

I think I like the Bruce and Selina stuff more than anything else on the show so far. It was really refreshing.

----------


## SXVA

> @SXVA
> I do think that it's more likely for young (maybe 13-30) male viewers would be more attracted to characters of power (violence, independence) versus characters of weakness (affection, anxiety, relationships). 
> 
> Hormones, genetics and our cultures all play a huge part in how judgements get formed. Free will and random chaos are there too but the average 18 year old male is going to have a very different set of perceptive bias' than a 40 year old woman.
> 
> To me, this could explain some of the strong negativity about Renee and Barbara.


To me, however... the question becomes, is that "average" and the way people are naturally or is it something nurtured and brought about externally.

What i mean by that is within the entire perception of what's weak and strong, if within more so of the entirety it became "average" for those things that are perceived weak to rather be perceived as strong would the same types of people still see it the same way.

If i were to attempt at using an example, i could look at how the internet completely changed perception. Back in the day before the internet was mainstream, geek/nerd culture was shunned and thought of as something weak and undesirable and most people included within the "in crowd" avoided it and the people who were a part of it. However, if one takes a look at the state of things since the internet age the entire perception has been changed where those same types of people now embrace those things once previously shunned and thought of as undesirable within perception. 

So, the question that sticks with me is could something similar happen with the perception of what's strong/weak... if there was a great change to the perception of Femininity and certain stereotypical qualities being weak and instead perceived as strong and perhaps certain stereotypical masculine qualities as weak [for example], what effects and changes could that have on this greater perception. Would the aforementioned person used within the initial example who might see violence or certain masculine attributes as strong and powerful, now see something else entirely. I believe so.

[Keeping in mind, and considering that the perception and way of things relative to this have been a certain way since the dawn of humanity possibly necessary for survival in response to what some might see as the unevolved savage/primal environments and perceptions of the time, and it very well could be so deeply ingrained within humanity that the very will of humanity itself resists it's change]

----------


## Godzilla2099

> Renee is the discarded ex-lover of Barbara who left Renee for a man. Not only is Renee thrown aside but she looses out to a man, a big deal for a gay person. And Renee still loves and is protective of Barbara so she investigates Jim, our manly male hero. This could be seen as failure and weakness in spades on Renee's part.
> 
> Barbara loves Jim with all her heart which puts her in a bind since he can't/won't share much/all about his job. This creates loads of anxiety for Barbara which is gotta be a real turn off for many young male viewers. "She's an anchor" or "she's so stupid" or "she won't let Jim do his job" etc.


Love?  Those disturbing acts?  That's greed and lust.  Before the Cobblepot Incident, there were plenty of suspects for the Wayne Murder.  Who does Montoya target?  Gordon.  And don't throw this BS about Montoya trying to protect Barbara.  Even when Gordon's name was cleared, and Barbara was vulnerable after being traumatized.  She still went for getting Barbara in the sack.  Montoya is scum.  I don't see how this is even debatable.  If she really loved Barbara, then she'd convince her that Gordon is a good dude and this job is dangerous, not take advantage. If that Saw Puppet played a 'game' with me and asked me to name one redeeming quality with Montoya I'd have a better chance getting out of that reverse bear trap.

At least Cobblepot paid his respects for the man who saved his life in his own odd way.  He cleared Gordon's name at the Police Station and convinced Falcone to spare Gordon and Barbara.  Barbara on the other hand, after Jim risks everything to ensure her safety, how does she repay him?  Leaves and cheats on him with the most despicable character in the show.  I don't buy that "I'm scared" crap.  Then she wouldn't have jumped in the sack with another police officer.  Both those women know Montoya is working with Gordon.    

At this point I'm hoping Jim meets another woman named Barbara and moves on.  He's not perfect but he's far too good for her.

Its easy to target these two and its not because they're women 

1. Not interesting at all.  
2. All they bring to the table are their unlikable qualities
3. Montoya is holier than thou and views herself as some good guy.  Bullock, Falcone, and Cobblepot know they're slime 

I do agree that this show lacks a strong female presence.  I hope Leslie Thompkins fixes this (and hooks up with Jim instead).  I hope this actress can deliver.

36 male by the way

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> This is a superb point SXVA that I'd like to pop psychologize on a bit. Note, this is just my opinion that I'm not claiming it as fact that applies to everyone.
> 
> I think (not *know) that most (not *all) commenters who are critical of Barbara and/or Renee are young males who are attracted to displays of power and repulsed by displays of weakness.
> 
> Renee is the discarded ex-lover of Barbara who left Renee for a man. Not only is Renee thrown aside but she looses out to a man, a big deal for a gay person. And Renee still loves and is protective of Barbara so she investigates Jim, our manly male hero. This could be seen as failure and weakness in spades on Renee's part.
> 
> Barbara loves Jim with all her heart which puts her in a bind since he can't/won't share much/all about his job. This creates loads of anxiety for Barbara which is gotta be a real turn off for many young male viewers. "She's an anchor" or "she's so stupid" or "she won't let Jim do his job" etc.
> 
> Both female characters can appear weak in the eyes of some young male viewers due to their strong "soft" emotions and actions: love, affection, anxiety, worry, concern, protectiveness, etc.
> ...


I don't think so. I'm over 30. I like Bullock as a character, but as redeemable as he is, I hated that the betrayal. Everybody dislikes Barabara as a character and hates her betrayal. In Archer I hated Cyril for cheating on Lana. You're over thinking it. Nobody likes the weak character that ends up cheating on the protagonist while he is carrying the mission. While the villains are challenges and the more sinful, the better, nobody is interested in useless weak characters.




> If there wasn't part of him being Two-face now he wouldn't make sense as Two-face later on. Could it be handle more subtle? Sure, but it makes sense to show him being a split personality.


I agree. The BTAS idea that he repressed his double personality before it became physically evident makes sense, as nobody develops a mental disorder like that from just an accident. The accident only blew up the cover.

----------


## Nick Miller

my favorite part was Bruce swimming with all his clothes on, lol

He needs to hit hit the weights next episode. And maybe Alfred can make some protein shakes? He's a tiny kid, lol.

Dent i have always seen him as a bit older than Bruce, so i have no problems there. Same with Riddler and Pengy and Joker

----------


## heyevaxx

@SXVA
Interesting comments, thanks for the engagement.

I agree that "average" perceptions are a function of time and definitely can go through big changes.

Could this happen to this hypothetical that young males like violence/independence/aggression and are put off by affection/relationships/anxiety? I hope so!  :Smile: 

Seriously, compared to your good example of the change in the perception of geek culture, I think the violence vs affection thing is much more deeply hard wired into our physiology. Genetics, hormones, reproductive systems, etc. Despite the low level nature of male=aggression/female=nurture there are changes over time for the better.

So how does this work into Gotham? Well, as a TV show everyone seems to have to be messed up. The men are all violent, even the good guy hero.

One woman is violent like Fish and another is being used and manipulated like Liza. Renee and Barbara are strongly relationship focused; Renee with Barbara and Barbara with both Renee and Jim. Neither are particularly violent but that just might be since they don't get a lot of screentime. Essen is kind of a lightweight character: someone for Jim and Harv to go to when something happens and then she says "fix it!" Last but not least, Young Selina is sometimes violent (the eye gouging was a bit strong) but she seems more of an in-between character in the aggression-affection spectrum; more of a survivalist.

So, all in all I'm pretty happy with at least the women having some affection/relationship action. I'd like some more strong, positive female portrayals but so far, so (pretty) good considering a tv show now a days. And it's a show about Gotham where everything is dark.

It's just that I don't get the hate for Barbara and Renee. That's how my posts started about this episode. I'll keep watching the show and this thread so maybe I'll figure it out eventually.

----------


## colossus34

> This is a superb point SXVA that I'd like to pop psychologize on a bit. Note, this is just my opinion that I'm not claiming it as fact that applies to everyone.
> 
> I think (not *know) that most (not *all) commenters who are critical of Barbara and/or Renee are young males who are attracted to displays of power and repulsed by displays of weakness.
> 
> Renee is the discarded ex-lover of Barbara who left Renee for a man. Not only is Renee thrown aside but she looses out to a man, a big deal for a gay person. And Renee still loves and is protective of Barbara so she investigates Jim, our manly male hero. This could be seen as failure and weakness in spades on Renee's part.
> 
> Barbara loves Jim with all her heart which puts her in a bind since he can't/won't share much/all about his job. This creates loads of anxiety for Barbara which is gotta be a real turn off for many young male viewers. "She's an anchor" or "she's so stupid" or "she won't let Jim do his job" etc.
> 
> Both female characters can appear weak in the eyes of some young male viewers due to their strong "soft" emotions and actions: love, affection, anxiety, worry, concern, protectiveness, etc.
> ...


You sound like the type who got livid and brought out the pitchforks for a man who wore a tacky tshirt the day he landed a rocket on a comet. Seriously, get over the social justice shtick and obvious gender bias. Trying to say young male viewers are drawn to violence and power as if its an evil thing. Guess what, my gf HATES the Babs character as well as Renee, not for any other reasons besides they are terrible characters with no redeeming qualities. It's not our fault they're written as being unrelatable.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> You sound like the type who got livid and brought out the pitchforks for a man who wore a tacky tshirt the day he landed a rocket on the moon. Seriously, get over the social justice shtick and obvious gender bias.


Yeah that's not generalizing at all...




> Trying to say young male viewers are drawn to violence and power as if its an evil thing. Guess what, my gf HATES the Babs character as well as Renee, not for any other reasons besides they are terrible characters with no redeeming qualities. It's not our fault they're written as being unrelatable.


Well she didn't say everyone. I will however note you're both heterosexuals and there can be a bias on this thread "she cheated with a woman" was mentioned back a couple pages.

There's a different reaction on the gay forums I go to than here. Renee is still popular with the women even if Barbara is written uneven, Fish is popular with gay black men in particular even if she's hated on here. Is it because she has drag like qualities to her? Does that attract gay guys and repulse straight ones? Maybe.




> Harvey Dent was just awful.  Over-acted, and as usual with this show the hamfisted foreshadowing.   It's a bit premature for him to already be one accident away from becoming Two-Face.


Not really when you consider the average age of onset for mental illness disorders is at least by early 20s (if not earlier).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1925038/

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Fish is popular with gay black men in particular even if she's hated on here. Is it because she has drag like qualities to her? Does that attract gay guys and repulse straight ones? Maybe.


Well, I'm straight, yet find Fish very sexy and "fun."

----------


## EdwardNigma

Pros
More Edward Nigma
Penguin gives a two minute performance and it is great
Arkham stuff is interesting
I really like Alfred's scenes
Harvey Dent is GREAT so far

Cons
Barbara and Renee can pretty much die at any point and I am fine with it. They both are backstabbing Jim in different ways
The actor that played the bomber is kind of weak (his brother even seemed like a better actor)

Overall pretty good but honestly I wish they would just get rid of Montoya completely. It won't happen but I can dream.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Pros
> More Edward Nigma
> Penguin gives a two minute performance and it is great
> Arkham stuff is interesting
> I really like Alfred's scenes
> Harvey Dent is GREAT so far
> 
> Cons
> Barbara and Renee can pretty much die at any point and I am fine with it. They both are backstabbing Jim in different ways
> ...


My overall feelings too, another solid episode. Regarding, Montoya and Babs it doesn't help when the actresses are terribubble too, I just can't buy into a single word the say.

----------


## PennyD

> I think I like the Bruce and Selina stuff more than anything else on the show so far. It was really refreshing.


Yes for some acid induced elseworlds tale.

----------


## The Batlord

> Love?  Those disturbing acts?  That's greed and lust.  Before the Cobblepot Incident, there were plenty of suspects for the Wayne Murder.  Who does Montoya target?  Gordon.  And don't throw this BS about Montoya trying to protect Barbara.  Even when Gordon's name was cleared, and Barbara was vulnerable after being traumatized.  She still went for getting Barbara in the sack.  Montoya is scum.  I don't see how this is even debatable.  If she really loved Barbara, then she'd convince her that Gordon is a good dude and this job is dangerous, not take advantage. If that Saw Puppet played a 'game' with me and asked me to name one redeeming quality with Montoya I'd have a better chance getting out of that reverse bear trap.
> 
> At least Cobblepot paid his respects for the man who saved his life in his own odd way.  He cleared Gordon's name at the Police Station and convinced Falcone to spare Gordon and Barbara.  Barbara on the other hand, after Jim risks everything to ensure her safety, how does she repay him?  Leaves and cheats on him with the most despicable character in the show.  I don't buy that "I'm scared" crap.  Then she wouldn't have jumped in the sack with another police officer.  Both those women know Montoya is working with Gordon.


Seriously? You're willing to give credit for being a good guy to a character who is motivated entirely by sociopathic manipulation (Penguin), but one who is clearly meant to be a "good guy" is scum? However you perceive Montoya right now, and even if you never like her, she IS a protagonist who is meant to play a large part on the "good side". So... you clearly need question your assumptions about the character. Poorly written or not, calling her "scum" is OTT.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> Seriously? You're willing to give credit for being a good guy to a character who is motivated entirely by sociopathic manipulation (Penguin), but one who is clearly meant to be a "good guy" is scum? However you perceive Montoya right now, and even if you never like her, she IS a protagonist who is meant to play a large part on the "good side". So... you clearly need question your assumptions about the character. Poorly written or not, calling her "scum" is OTT.


Your 'protagonist' spent the extreme majority of the series trying to place the real protagonist behind bars.  She is using her police powers to ruin an innocent man's life.

----------


## WraizeM

I can't wait to see more of Harvey dent I kind of hope they don't make him two face anytime soon though.

----------


## Ceebiro

I'd be surprised if anyone can name 5 redeeming qualities about Montoya in Gotham that don't involve her being a multiple minority in a traditionally male role.

Actually, make that 3. 

She really is the worst character in this show and one of the worst characters I've seen in recent television (not that I watch much). She's manipulative, untrustworthy in pretty much any capacity and apparently really crap at her job.

----------


## Ceebiro

> Seriously? You're willing to give credit for being a good guy to a character who is motivated entirely by sociopathic manipulation (Penguin), but one who is clearly meant to be a "good guy" is scum? However you perceive Montoya right now, and even if you never like her, she IS a protagonist who is meant to play a large part on the "good side". So... you clearly need question your assumptions about the character. Poorly written or not, calling her "scum" is OTT.


It is possible to be on the "good side" and still be an antagonist. Montoya has clearly been set opposite of Gordon every step of the way and has done nothing but try to undermine him in an effort to get in his fiancee's pants, including arrest him with no real evidence. That's pretty scummy any way you look at it.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

I think it all comes down to the expectations we already had for these characters going in, and whether or not GOTHAM has met, exceeded or failed them.

IMHO, so far:

1. Jim Gordon: met
2. Harvey Bullock: exceeded
3. Bruce Wayne: exceeded
4. Alfred Pennyworth: exceeded
5. Selina Kyle: met
6. Oswald Cobblepot: exceeded
7. Edward Nygma: met
8. Sarah Essen: failed
9. Carmine Falcone: exceeded
10. Sal Maroni: met
11. Fish Monney: exceeded
12. Harvey Dent: failed
13. Crispus Allen: failed
14. Renee Montoya: failed
15. Barbara Keane: met
16. Tommy Elliott: met
17. Ivy Pepper: failed
18. Victor Zsasz: met

So far, by my count, out of 18 Batverse* characters on GOTHAM, I have  6 characters exceeding my expectations, 7 characters meeting my expectations, and 5 characters failing my expectations.

For me, Barbara Keane is pretty much what I expected, which is to say, I didn't expect much from the future ex-Mrs. Gordon.  She plays next to no role in the general Batverse anyway, and neither her presence/absence is noted in the comix.  So outside of maybe birthing "our" Barbara Gordon (which at this point, I'll happily take the "Gordon's niece" route for GOTHAM's future Batgirl), or more likely with this version of Keane, "our" sociopathic James Gordon Jr. (or maybe both as twins?), she serves no role except to make Gordon realize the job will always come first for him.

For me, Oswald Cobblepot thoroughly exceeded my expectations.  Yes, he's a murderous creep, and he does not lack for a certain charisma.  But those are the qualities I WANT in the villianous Penguin.  We're being showed how this guy will eventually be a worthy challenge for Batman.  GOTHAM's Oswald is already miles ahead of BATMAN RETURNS' version.  I have been pleasantly surprised with this portrayal.

For me, Renee Montoya thoroughly failed my expectations.  I expected her to be a damn good cop, regardless of what orientation she is.  Not this overly-petty, borderline-buffoonish, creepy-stalker with lax morals on trying to break up an already-strained couple.  Turning Montoya from straight (or non-descript) to gay in the comix is fine with me ... turning her from a good cop to full-fledged home-wrecker on this show is NOT fine with me.

* - I fully expect Fish Mooney to "Do A Harley Quinn" and make the jump into canon Batverse comics as soon as possible, if she's not there already.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Here's my take on the lastest episode of _Gotham_. 

-Penguin continues to be interesting and suitably creepy. I'm really enjoying the actors work here.
-Nigma continues to grow on me. Riddler is one of my favorite Bat villains and I'm enjoying how he's being developed here. 
-Fish seems to be getting better and better. 
-Loved the Selina and Bruce scenes here. Liked how she was able to get Bruce to laugh and relax a little. 
-Alfred continues to be enjoyable even if this is an Alfred we have never seen before. I like the guy myself.
-Gordon and Bullock continue to be favorites. 

That's the good stuff now onto the bad.

The issue of Renee and Barbara. I'm really growing to dislike them both because of how they are being portrayed here. Also I want to know how much "safer" is Barbara with Renee than she is with Jim? I don't really think that she really is seeing as how Renee has the same type of job as Jim with all it's inherent dangers. Also if she wanted to "get herself together" it might have served her better to get out of Gotham to do so instead of staying there and with her ex to boot. She's the one that put herself into a dangerous position when she was asked to leave for her own safety. It was her choice to come back and place herself in danger not Jim's so why blame him? Sounds to me like Barbara is placing the blame on the wrong person.

Pretty good episode all in all. Looking forward to next week's episode and a bit of butt kicking Alfred.

----------


## SXVA

> @SXVA
> Interesting comments, thanks for the engagement.
> 
> I agree that "average" perceptions are a function of time and definitely can go through big changes.
> 
> Could this happen to this hypothetical that young males like violence/independence/aggression and are put off by affection/relationships/anxiety? I hope so! 
> 
> Seriously, compared to your good example of the change in the perception of geek culture, I think the violence vs affection thing is much more deeply hard wired into our physiology. Genetics, hormones, reproductive systems, etc. Despite the low level nature of male=aggression/female=nurture there are changes over time for the better.
> 
> ...


It would be a much more massive change for sure, i doubt it will happen in this lifetime. I have hope that one day there will be a great change to that end though. Even today things have come a long way by comparison with years ago and so there has been underlying change ongoing just not on that scale of effect. A lot of it simply depends on where the world ends up years down the road, if there becomes a necessity to survive based on the more primal/savage instincts as a result of certain occurrences or environmental cause/effect like in the distant past.. then things would regress. Which, that's likely to occur in the near future and so i don't expect the kind of change i'm envisioning/hoping for a long, long time.

----------


## ispacehead

Bah! Stupid Heller and his spoilers. I'm enjoying this so much I don't want to know a thing about what's coming.

----------


## Powerboy

> A bit strange to me how Barbara cheating with Renee is some sort of unredeemable sin, when Penguin brutally kills many people and is like the best thing since toast... Bullock has been corrupt to the point that he supported Gordon murdering someone in cold blood for the mafia and all of his sins are looked past, even people like Falcone and Maroni seem to get a pass for their sins...
> 
> I think the underlying point of Gotham at least initially is how twisted and corrupt Gotham is and how it effects people, most of the people i don't think are meant to be extremely likable and have flaws/sins...
> 
> While Barbara's actions aren't justified, one could empathize/sympathize with her situation and i don't think it's all on her... Gordon basically chose Gotham and his obsession with Gotham [his obsession being Gotham effecting him in a different way and like a virus also effecting Barbara through that] over her, *he was willing to die for Gotham instead of live for Barbara*. And he's not being very understanding of her in that he's been to war, and has worked as a cop and might be able to deal with these things but she hasn't, and again he seems to be choosing Gotham rather than be with her in a time where she might need someone... Renee chose her, which i could see how that might be comforting in such a context and they've had a past together and intimacy together where she might need something familiar from the past to get away from her present.
> 
> It was wrong, not trying to excuse it but i'm just saying i don't think Renee/Barbara can't be redeemed because of it and i can somewhat understand the situation all things considered.


I can see the Penguin getting a pass because he's the villain and is supposed to do rotten things.  But, yes, Bullock is far worse than anything Barbara has done.  Realistically, she's having a problem common to real life cop's spouses where she can't deal with the constant danger to him (or to her self in this case too).  That she retreated to a former lover is understandable and that it's a woman should be incidental.  I definitely don't see where it's something she cannot come back from.  Gordon's relationship with her also helps ground the show with a certain level of reality despite all the other stuff.

----------


## The Batlord

> I'd be surprised if anyone can name 5 redeeming qualities about Montoya in Gotham *that don't involve her being a multiple minority in a traditionally male role.*
> 
> Actually, make that 3. 
> 
> She really is the worst character in this show and one of the worst characters I've seen in recent television (not that I watch much). She's manipulative, untrustworthy in pretty much any capacity and apparently really crap at her job.


Really? This? You didn't type that, look at it, and think "Man, I really shouldn't say something like that on the internet, or people will think I'm a racist misogynist."?

----------


## Powerboy

> I'd be surprised if anyone can name 5 redeeming qualities about Montoya in Gotham that don't involve her being a multiple minority in a traditionally male role.
> 
> Actually, make that 3. 
> 
> She really is the worst character in this show and one of the worst characters I've seen in recent television (not that I watch much). She's manipulative, untrustworthy in pretty much any capacity and apparently really crap at her job.


1. She's an honest cop in a city where almost all of them are dishonest.

2. She's willing to apologize when she's wrong.

3. She worries what will happen to someone she cares about.

None of these are anything to do with gender or minority status and the very qualities that caused her to oppose Gordon were really good qualities.  She also seems to be pretty good at her job and every scrap of evidence indicated Gordon was guilty at the time.

----------


## Randumbz

> 1. She's an honest cop in a city where almost all of them are dishonest.
> 
> 2. She's willing to apologize when she's wrong.
> 
> 3. She worries what will happen to someone she cares about.
> 
> None of these are anything to do with gender or minority status and the very qualities that caused her to oppose Gordon were really good qualities.  She also seems to be pretty good at her job and every scrap of evidence indicated Gordon was guilty at the time.


What good is apologizing to someone if you're just going to betray them again a few days later? And she isn't worrying about Barbara because she cares. They've made it pretty clear that Montoya just wants to have sex with her.

----------


## Powerboy

> What good is apologizing to someone if you're just going to betray them again a few days later? And she isn't worrying about Barbara because she cares. They've made it pretty clear that Montoya just wants to have sex with her.


They did?  I read it as Montoya still having a whole bag full of feelings for her.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Here's my take on the lastest episode of _Gotham_. 
> 
> -Penguin continues to be interesting and suitably creepy. I'm really enjoying the actors work here.
> -Nigma continues to grow on me. Riddler is one of my favorite Bat villains and I'm enjoying how he's being developed here. 
> -Fish seems to be getting better and better. 
> -Loved the Selina and Bruce scenes here. Liked how she was able to get Bruce to laugh and relax a little. 
> -Alfred continues to be enjoyable even if this is an Alfred we have never seen before. I like the guy myself.
> -Gordon and Bullock continue to be favorites. 
> 
> ...


You are correct the danger with renee is the same as with Gordon although I guess Barbara just wanted someone who would confide in her.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> They did?  I read it as Montoya still having a whole bag full of feelings for her.


I think they were a little vague on that.  Montoya talks about caring for her, but then when we see them together, the first thing we see is them having sex.  Which is delightful from another point of view, but it does cast doubt on Montoya.

----------


## Powerboy

> I think they were a little vague on that.  Montoya talks about caring for her, but then when we see them together, the first thing we see is them having sex.  Which is delightful from another point of view, but it does cast doubt on Montoya.


Because of all the previous exchanges between Montoya and Barbara, I took it there is clearly genuine concern and caring there.  I took that scene with them in bed as the powers that be on the show naturally wanting to end the episode on a provocative note so they are going to skip everything that led up to that for the moment and get right to the ratings grabber.

----------


## blackbolt396

So are people starting to like this show now?

----------


## The Batlord

> What good is apologizing to someone if you're just going to betray them again a few days later? And she isn't worrying about Barbara because she cares. They've made it pretty clear that Montoya just wants to have sex with her.


Well, she's not friends with him. She didn't go back on her apology by trying to get him arrested or killed. She just went to bed with someone who she had shown interest in the entire series. The fact that it's _Gordon's_ fiance is incidental. Does it reflect well on her that she slept with a woman with a fiance? No. But it doesn't make her a villain. Just flawed.

And she's clearly shown emotional involvement in Barbara's well-being the entire series as well. Her bearing always showed emotional conflict and worry when she was talking to Barbara. To interpret her as merely motivated by lust seems to pay attention only to her actions and ignore tone, subtext, facial expressions, etc, all of which show her to be far more than just... horny. I mean, if all she is concerned with is a little poon, then why go through all the trouble? She's smack dab in the middle of a messy love triangle that she's only in the last episode made any progress with, and trying to screw with Gordon has been far more of a hassle than I expect anyone who was only trying to get in someone's pants would be willing to put up with. It just doesn't make sense.

----------


## heyevaxx

Some people say that Renee unfairly investigated Gordon. I figured I probably forgot some key dialog or a plot point that demonstrates this unfairness so I went back through the episodes.

Also, I couldn't remember any references to Renee not caring about Barbara and just wanting to have sex with her.

It's interesting what the actual dialog from the episodes tells us. I highlighted some key passages.

I'm sure I missed a lot that supports the other opinions so please post direct quotes from the episode that show Renee unfairly persecuting Jim or that Renee doesn't care for Barbara and just wants sex from her.

Summary:
s01e01@24:41 Oswald implicates Jim&Harv in the framing and murder of Mario Pepper
s01e01@27:31 Renee warns Barbara about Jim's involvement in the framing and murder
s01e03@27:56 Renee says to Barbara: "But I still care about you."
s01e06@26:10 Renee says "Barbara, you know how much I care about you."
s01e07@22:11 Renee apologies to Jim and asks "So Barbara's safe though? You're sure she's safe?"

s01e01 Pilot @24:41 Oswald gets into Cris and Renee's car and they talk
Oswald: *Mario Pepper was framed by Fish Mooney and the cops. I saw Ms. Mooney with Martha Wayne's necklace. She was discussing how to get it into Pepper's home inside a bag of drugs. This was shortly after she met with Detectives Bullock and Gordon from the homicide squad.*
Cris: Mooney works with Carmine Falcone's mob. You saying Falcone had the Waynes killed?
Oswald: I'm just telling you what I saw.
Renee: Why? Why snitch on your own boss?
Oswald: I confess, that...that poor orphan boy pricked my conscience.
Cris: Nah. You want to push Fish out, huh?
Oswald: That's beside the point. I've done my civic duty. Good day to you both.

s01e01 Pilot @27:31 Renee comes to Barbara's apartment and they talk
Renee: The GCPD framed Mario Pepper for the murder of the Waynes.
Barbara: What?
Renee: *They framed and killed an innocent man.*
Barbara: *And you're here to tell me that James was in on this?*
Renee: *Yes.*
Barbara: And what's your proof?
Renee: I can't tell you, but it's the truth. James Gordon is not a good guy. You deserve better.
Barbara: James Gordon is the most honest man I've ever met. He's not capable of doing that.
Renee: You sure you know what he's capable of?
Barbara: Yes, thank you. I know him.
Renee: Does he know you?
Barbara: Don't.
Renee: Like I know you?

s01e03 The Balloonman @27:56 Renee uses her key to come into Barbara's apartment and they talk
Barbara: Is it just because I love him? Is that why you are so determined to destroy him?
Renee: I've been sober for a year. Look, and I know that doesn't erase the things that I did. *But I still care about you. I can't stand you being with this man. You deserve better.*
[after a long pause while they're faces are close, Renee leans into to kiss and Barbara turns her head]
Barbara: Leave. Now.

s01e06 Spirit of the Goat @26:10 Barbara waits for Renee to come out of GCPD HQ and they talk on the steps
Barbara: Wait. Why?
Renee: *Because it'll get you killed, okay?* You understand what he knows, who he knows will kill you. We got a judge issuing a warrant tonight. *Barbara, you know how much I care about you. When Gordon gets arrested, you have to get out of here.*
Barbara: If Jim gets arrested, then this is exactly where I have to be. By his side.
Renee: *Please, just leave. Get out of Gotham Just till this is over.* And don't come to me again.

s01e07 Penguins Umbrella @22:11 Jim talks with Renee in her car as he hides out in the woods
Renee: I owe you an apology. You were telling the truth, and I wouldn't believe you. *Maybe my personal feelings towards Barbara got tangled up in there.* And that was wrong.
Jim: Forget it.
Renee: Anyhow, I-I'm sorry for misjudging you, and I'm very glad that we're on the same side now. [she offers her hand]
Jim: [after a pause, he shakes her hand] Yeah, me, too.
Renee: *So Barbara's safe though? You're sure she's safe?*
Jim: I'm sure.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Bah! Stupid Heller and his spoilers. I'm enjoying this so much I don't want to know a thing about what's coming.


I totally agree!
I don't read/watch any previews but I still get a little spoiled by article titles and some posts.
The show is a blast and I'll watch it; there's no need to tease me into watching.  :Smile:

----------


## heyevaxx

> Because of all the previous exchanges between Montoya and Barbara, I took it there is clearly genuine concern and caring there.  I took that scene with them in bed as the powers that be on the show naturally wanting to end the episode on a provocative note so they are going to skip everything that led up to that for the moment and get right to the ratings grabber.


Well said Powerboy.

We just don't know all the details about how they ended up in bed which happens a lot in TV and comics. A scene jumps and you either have to fill in the blanks or it gets revealed later.

Did Barbara call Renee or vice a versa? My guess is Barbara was totally freaked out by almost being killed and Jim being too busy for her to get reassurance so she left town and called Renee.

It can't be understated that being kidnapped by Falcone's top assassin and then threatened with a torturous death by him should seriously rattle anyone. I'm actually a little surprised that Jim ends up calling and begging for her return. Really? Back to Gotham where Barbara almost was killed because of his job? [BTW, I still love Gordon]

And just because we see Renee and Barbara in bed doesn't mean sex was the *only* reason they both got back together. Past affection, caring, emotional intimacy probably plays the biggest role based on what we've seen regarding Barbara and Renee leading up to them getting in bed.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

I don't think Barbara can play the "didn't feel safe" card after Jim got her out of Gotham City only for her boneheaded move to go directly to Falcone and plead on Jim's behalf.  The sheer stupidity of her doing that was so bad that I can't even blame the character anymore, I blame the writers of the show itself.  NO ONE in their right mind would think that tactic would have any positive result.

I'm fairly certain that on this show Jim and Barbara are clearly NOT going to make it as a couple, and now I'm doubting she's even going to be Babs' future mom ... in which case, I can totally see GOTHAM not dragging this out and just having her killed off or written out either at this season's end or the next season's beginning to further Gordon's manpain.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> Summary:
> s01e01@24:41 Oswald implicates Jim&Harv in the framing and murder of Mario Pepper
> s01e01@27:31 Renee warns Barbara about Jim's involvement in the framing and murder
> .


I believe this is the initial issue. Why did Montoya believe Oswald, someone who clearly has his own agenda, over a fellow cop, to the point where she is warning Barbara and getting all in Jim's face?  She went from zero to guilty after one conversation with Oswald.   That suggests another agenda on her part.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> So are people starting to like this show now?


People have been liking it.  :Cool: 




> 1. She's an honest cop in a city where almost all of them are dishonest.
> 
> 2. She's willing to apologize when she's wrong.
> 
> 3. She worries what will happen to someone she cares about.
> 
> None of these are anything to do with gender or minority status and the very qualities that caused her to oppose Gordon were really good qualities.  She also seems to be pretty good at her job and every scrap of evidence indicated Gordon was guilty at the time.


She's driven too, which on the wrong path can be a problem but when she's on the right one I can see this Renee being a good presence in Gotham as a cop or as The Question.

As the saying goes, the other woman didn't make any vows so she didn't break any either. Come to think of it James and Barbara haven't made anything official but still split. I guess he gets the house though. LOL




> I believe this is the initial issue. Why did Montoya believe Oswald, someone who clearly has his own agenda, over a fellow cop, to the point where she is warning Barbara and getting all in Jim's face?  She went from zero to guilty after one conversation with Oswald.   That suggests another agenda on her part.


Well, it's Gotham and all the cops are dirty so it makes sense to assume Gordon would be as the mafia tended to have more honor there. We know he's a good guy but to her the odds were against him being so.




> I'm fairly certain that on this show Jim and Barbara are clearly NOT going to make it as a couple, and now I'm doubting she's even going to be Babs' future mom ... in which case, I can totally see GOTHAM not dragging this out and just having her killed off or written out either at this season's end or the next season's beginning to further Gordon's manpain.


I kind of wonder if they'd have Barbara get pregnant and then die either in labor or they'd have to save the baby when she's killed, might be a reason for him to name the daughter Barbara then.

Barbara not being there also means Montoya has nothing to be jealous of which could develop her character (assuming they wouldn't make her blame Jim for it, maybe they both bond over trying to save her). Who knows? I'm often wrong on predictions, they like to throw little surprises in .

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I believe this is the initial issue. Why did Montoya believe Oswald, someone who clearly has his own agenda, over a fellow cop, to the point where she is warning Barbara and getting all in Jim's face?  She went from zero to guilty after one conversation with Oswald.   That suggests another agenda on her part.


Maybe if she and Allen had followed up at the Peppers later on, too, she might have found out Jim had been there again because he wasn't that sure of Mario Pepper's guilt now. Of course, there's the whole corpus delicti problem of charging Gordon with the murder of Cobblepot without an actual body. As Montoya admitted, maybe her own feelings for Barbara got in the way of her professionalism.

Having said that, I don't have the hate for her character like others here do.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't think Barbara can play the "didn't feel safe" card after Jim got her out of Gotham City only for her boneheaded move to go directly to Falcone and plead on Jim's behalf.  The sheer stupidity of her doing that was so bad that I can't even blame the character anymore, I blame the writers of the show itself.  NO ONE in their right mind would think that tactic would have any positive result.


That I don't agree with. As has been pointed out before, Gordon was dead man walking at that point. Barbara's only chance to stop that was going to Falcone. Was it destined to succeed? While the odds were low, wassn't it worth a try if you love someone in trouble? 




> I'm fairly certain that on this show Jim and Barbara are clearly NOT going to make it as a couple, and now I'm doubting she's even going to be Babs' future mom ... in which case, I can totally see GOTHAM not dragging this out and just having her killed off or written out either at this season's end or the next season's beginning to further Gordon's manpain.


I'll be extremely shocked if Barbara Kean doesn't become Bab's mother.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> Maybe if she and Allen had followed up at the Peppers later on, too, she might have found out Jim had been there again because he wasn't that sure of Mario Pepper's guilt now. Of course, there's the whole corpus delicti problem of charging Gordon with the murder of Cobblepot without an actual body. As Montoya admitted, maybe her own feelings for Barbara got in the way of her professionalism.
> 
> Having said that, I don't have the hate for her character like others here do.


Yeah, that was one thing I thought about when they were giving Gordon crap - he should have just looked them in the eye and said "show me a body."  :Smile:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yeah, that was one thing I thought about when they were giving Gordon crap - he should have just looked them in the eye and said "show me a body."


Right. How would this even go to trial? Montoya and Allen had enough to continue the investigation, granted, but not nearly enough for a grand jury, IMO.

----------


## heyevaxx

> I believe this is the initial issue. Why did Montoya believe Oswald, someone who clearly has his own agenda, over a fellow cop, to the point where she is warning Barbara and getting all in Jim's face?  She went from zero to guilty after one conversation with Oswald.  That suggests another agenda on her part.


A few points.

Agendas. I suppose everyone has an agenda for everything they do and don't do, even if that agenda is don't think about something. I personally think the agenda label is too frequently applied simply to devalue another's actions and not to directly address the rightness or wrongness of the actions. E.g. someone is trying to sell home alarms in a high crime area; is this effort devalued or inappropriate because the alarm salesmen has an "agenda" of making her monthly sales quota? Well, that doesn't really focus on the main issue: the problem of high crime and using alarms as a possible remedy.

About Oswald, he appears to be Cris and Renee's snitch, meaning he has an established track record of giving them information. Why would Oswald give them info about some bad cops (Harv and Jim) and potentially ruin his rep with Renee and Cris? If anything, Oswald has *more credibility since he's a known quantity who's given them correct intel in the past. I'm not saying it's right that a crook is trusted over cops but it's sadly all too realistic.

"...zero to guilty after one conversation with Oswald"
Based on our very first meeting of Renee and Cris, it's uber-obvious that they:
* dislike Harvey
* don't respect Harvey professionally
* think he's unethical

So I don't think it's zero to guilty at all. Harv indicates that they're "Self-righteous do-gooding skell huggers" (skell = poor substance user) so it's fair to say that Cris and Renee are fairly clean cops who try to do the right thing.

And Harv? OMG, he's a frakkin' nightmare! He coordinated the framing and killing of Mario Pepper. He facilitated the (near) execution of Oswald by a new cop, his partner! This on orders for the town's crime lord. And last but not least, Harv drew his gun with Jim on the floor and was about to kill him!

So based on their first meeting dialog and Harv's on-screen actions, I think it's completely reasonable for Montoya to be very suspicious of Harv and anyone working with Harv.

s01e02 Pilot @10:43
Renee: Come on, Bullock, you know you're scared of this case.
Harv: You're damn right I'm scared.
Renee: *So then do the right thing for once.*
Harv: "For once"? *Where the hell you get the nerve to say that to me? You can kiss my ass.*
Cris: Okay, you be that way, brother. Just trying to be collegial here.
Harv: You know, I almost gave it to you, but you couldn't help yourself, could you? You had to go and be disrespectful.
Cris: Okay, Harvey. Stay frosty. Good luck.
Harv: *Self-righteous do-gooding skell huggers. Always bad-mouthing us like they're such freaking angels.* Please.

----------


## Tupiaz

> I think it all comes down to the expectations we already had for these characters going in, and whether or not GOTHAM has met, exceeded or failed them.
> 
> IMHO, so far:
> 
> 1. Jim Gordon: met
> 2. Harvey Bullock: exceeded
> 3. Bruce Wayne: exceeded
> 4. Alfred Pennyworth: exceeded
> 5. Selina Kyle: met
> ...


This is not to be critical but I'm a bit confused. Who could you have expectation for Fish Mooney since she is anew character? I find it kind of weird that you can say that Both Ivy and Harvey has failed since their screen time has been so little. Heck even Nigma's screen time is so little that it makes it hard to judge him as a character yet especially since all he does is collecting evidence. Hopefullly they will not touch upon Tommy Elliot any more. It was fine as a nod but I don't have a need to see hime more than we already have.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Montoya went from 0-100 in regards to Gordon's possible corruption. Its one thing to take the word of a criminal but its another to take the word of some suspicious character like penguin and go to her ex(while inviting herself into her apartment) and talk bad about the guy.
Montoya just wanted to be with Barbara and while she is one of the good cops on the show she is a pretty lowly person. At least Bullock had a flashback where you see the city changed him to how he is now. With Montoya all you have is her relationship with babs and their issues with drugs and drinking.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> This is not to be critical but I'm a bit confused. Who could you have expectation for Fish Mooney since she is anew character?


Easy: new characters almost always have the lowest bar to clear in terms of fan expectations.  They just have to not completely suck from that particular fan (in this case, mine) point of view.  I was expecting next to nothing from Fish going into the pilot, and so far, I've been pleased with what I've seen from her.  




> I find it kind of weird that you can say that Both Ivy and Harvey has failed since their screen time has been so little. Heck even Nigma's screen time is so little that it makes it hard to judge him as a character yet especially since all he does is collecting evidence.


Well, that's why the disclaimer "IMHO, so far" is above all the grades.  All the grades are subject to change.  

Ivy was heavily promoted before the pilot aired.  Her faces was on posters and screens everywhere.  So far, I've seen nothing from Ivy to have justified that kind of early hype (which generated the expectations in the first place).  So, yeah, definite failure in my eyes. Harvey Dent had a fair amount of hype for his self-titled debut episode, but he was underwhelming (way too much foreshadowing way too soon).  And Nygma was pretty much what I expected, given that it was explained what role he'd be in ahead of time.  I stand my grades.  So far. 




> Hopefullly they will not touch upon Tommy Elliot any more. It was fine as a nod but I don't have a need to see hime more than we already have.


I hope the opposite:  I hope we see Tommy again and again, every other time we see young Bruce at school.  They're still classmates and have to deal with each other.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> A few points.
> 
> Agendas. I suppose everyone has an agenda for everything they do and don't do, even if that agenda is don't think about something. I personally think the agenda label is too frequently applied simply to devalue another's actions and not to directly address the rightness or wrongness of the actions. E.g. someone is trying to sell home alarms in a high crime area; is this effort devalued or inappropriate because the alarm salesmen has an "agenda" of making her monthly sales quota? Well, that doesn't really focus on the main issue: the problem of high crime and using alarms as a possible remedy.
> 
> About Oswald, he appears to be Cris and Renee's snitch, meaning he has an established track record of giving them information. Why would Oswald give them info about some bad cops (Harv and Jim) and potentially ruin his rep with Renee and Cris? If anything, Oswald has *more credibility since he's a known quantity who's given them correct intel in the past. I'm not saying it's right that a crook is trusted over cops but it's sadly all too realistic.
> 
> "...zero to guilty after one conversation with Oswald"
> Based on our very first meeting of Renee and Cris, it's uber-obvious that they:
> * dislike Harvey
> ...


All of this explains why they would suspect Harvey, but why Gordon?  He just arrived in town.

And if they are so observant, they should see that Gordon and Harvey aren't really agreeing on much.

And did they really understand WHY Oswald was giving them the information?  Obviously he's doing it because it benefits him - what if he's giving them bad information on purpose for a change, now that he has built up good will.  At the end of the day, Oswald is a known criminal, and Gordon is a cop who just got into town.  Trusting Oswald over Gordon is what makes them come across as a-holes.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> All of this explains why they would suspect Harvey, but why Gordon?  He just arrived in town.


Guilt by association, he's Harvey's partner so they figure it must be for a reason. Everyone else who comes to Gotham corrupts eventually. A little personal bias thrown in too but not the only reason.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> And if they are so observant, they should see that Gordon and Harvey aren't really agreeing on much.


This is the most salient point so far. Gordon is annoying Bullock and even Essen with his disregard for the de facto rules almost every cop follows in Gotham City, yet Montoya and Allen peg him as dirty and even arrest him. Nah, nothing personal about that.  :Wink:

----------


## soyster89

> I think it all comes down to the expectations we already had for these characters going in, and whether or not GOTHAM has met, exceeded or failed them.
> 
> IMHO, so far:
> 
> 1. Jim Gordon: met
> 2. Harvey Bullock: exceeded
> 3. Bruce Wayne: exceeded
> 4. Alfred Pennyworth: exceeded
> 5. Selina Kyle: met
> ...


My two cents - I've only left my exceeded and failed and removed the ones I feel met my expectations of the character:

1. Jim Gordon: exceeded (one of my favorite characters on the show)
2. Harvey Bullock: exceeded (Bullock has been portrayed fantastically)
4. Alfred Pennyworth: failed (I don't know who this guy is, but he's not Alfred)
6. Oswald Cobblepot: exceeded (fantastic thus far)

Nygma, Cat and Bruce are all closer to exceeded than failed, but I don't feel any of the 3 have truly exceeded my expectations. Maybe Nygma has. He's been portrayed very well so far. All are portraying the role well, and I expect that each could reach the exceeded level with time if they continue.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

So how do GOTHAM watchers (note I did not say "fans of the show", just Batverse fans who watch the show) feel about the recent "Pre-Natal Robin" announcement from the showrunners?

Since they mention "The Flying Graysons" being on the show, my guess is they'll introduce John and Mary Grayson (what was her maiden name in canon?) as newly married teenagers (maybe 18 or 19 years old), just a few years older than both Bruce (12) and Selina (14). 

Personally, since the show is clearly its own universe (Earth-2014?), I don't mind this news at all.  The more Batverse, the better, IMHO.  

I'm also hoping we eventually get an already-"out" young military cadet named Kate Kane for Renee Montoya to healthily focus on at some later point in the show.

----------


## ispacehead

> So how do GOTHAM watchers (note I did not say "fans of the show", just Batverse fans who watch the show) feel about the recent "Pre-Natal Robin" announcement from the showrunners?
> 
> Since they mention "The Flying Graysons" being on the show, my guess is they'll introduce John and Mary Grayson (what was her maiden name in canon?) as newly married teenagers (maybe 18 or 19 years old), just a few years older than both Bruce (12) and Selina (14).



I'm down with it. I think Heller said that they're going to show Dick's parents hooking up, so maybe pre-natal Robin was just a figure of speech.

Interesting to think that in this Gotham, Bruce may have known the Graysons some time before their demise.

It's all pretty golden from where I'm sitting. They could give us Bookworm, Egghead or Crazy Quilt and I'd probably do back flips.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It's all pretty golden from where I'm sitting. They could give us Bookworm, Egghead or Crazy Quilt and I'd probably do back flips.


Egg-zactly!

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> This is the most salient point so far. Gordon is annoying Bullock and even Essen with his disregard for the de facto rules almost every cop follows in Gotham City, yet Montoya and Allen peg him as dirty and even arrest him. Nah, nothing personal about that.


In this Gotham it's a pretty safe bet that every other cop is dirty, so when you are told by someone that doesn't have an apparent motive that a cop murdered a person it's not a big stretch to believe them. When the alleged murderer just so happens to date your former lover I think it's pretty easy to see why she went from 0 to 100

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> In this Gotham it's a pretty safe bet that every other cop is dirty, so when you are told by someone that doesn't have an apparent motive that a cop murdered a person it's not a big stretch to believe them.


Maybe, but arresting Gordon at that time was premature based on what tangible evidence Montoya and Allen had. 




> When the alleged murderer just so happens to date your former lover I think it's pretty easy to see why she went from 0 to 100


Everybody understand why she went 0 to 100, but not why she discarded her professional instincts at the same time. Again, she herself admitted this, so I'm not sure why we're still debating her actions as being completely pure.

----------


## Powerboy

1. Jim Gordon: exceeds expectations.

2. Harvey Bullock: Okay I don't really know that part of the mythos and had no preconceptions about him though I like the character.

3. Bruce Wayne: exceeded

4. Alfred Pennyworth: exceeded.  He makes sense ever sense the idea was introduced long ago that he has some sort of "badass" background.  This is the first live action role where we see Batman's early training and Alfred's involvement so he has to be more than just a guy who serves tea.

5. Selina Kyle: Obviously younger by a lot than any previous live action Catwoman but we definitely see the beginnings of the classic Catwoman personality.

6. Oswald Cobblepot: exceeded.  I LOVED Burgess Meredith's comical take on the Penguin and Danny DeVito's take was okay by me but this take on the Penguin exceeds all my expectations.

7. Edward Nygma: Again, loved the Frank Gorshin character with his antics and his laugh and obsessiveness.  This version is simply to drama what that version was to comedy: great!

8. Sarah Essen
9. Carmine Falcone
10. Sal Maroni
11. Fish Monney

Not enough solid image of what these characters should be (and, in Mooney's case, no previous version) but they are good, especially Falcone.

12. Harvey Dent: a bit over the top as a Batman villain should be.
13. Crispus Allen: not familiar enough.
14. Renee Montoya: from what I've seen of her, very well presented.
15. Barbara Keane: I don't know the comic version enough to draw comparisons.  She works well enough.
16. Tommy Elliott: don't know.
17. Ivy Pepper: a character with a cameo appearance perhaps to foreshadow the future.  Nothing to judge by.
18. Victor Zsasz: don't know.

----------


## Abishai100

I want to see more inter-connectedness between developing sectors of crime in Gotham City.

I remember an episode of "Batman: The Animated Series" (Fox TV) titled "Almost Got 'Im" (11/11/1992) in which various nemeses of Batman described how they were perhaps the closest in destroying the Dark Knight, and as their insidious stories unfolded, we imagined the connections between each villain and how their approaches to chasing Batman were related.

After all, Batman's Gotham City is a symbol of the ongoing ominous and menacing quality of urban crime perpetrated by maniacs and criminally insane society terrorists.

I mean, what do all criminals have in common --- maybe a desire to be daredevils?  What does all types of urban crime have in common --- maybe a desire to be power merchants and demons of the night?

We've seen connections between Fish Mooney, Falcone, and Penguin, and we've seen the weird work of Edward Nygma (the future Riddler) in Jim Gordon's police station.  We should see more connections between seemingly disparate or unconnected sectors of Gotham City crime --- maybe a public transportation system related narcotics ring involving Penguin and Fish Mooney (something like that!).

Jim Gordon and Harvey Bullock seem to be carrying the weight in providing adequate jurisprudence background talk about Gotham City's 'deranged face,' and we saw inferences to demonic force characterization in S1/Episode 6, "Spirit of the Goat" (10/27/2014).

Hey, don't they sell goat's milk in Gotham City?


I also hope they introduce Harleen Quinzel if they introduce the Joker in some fashion.





 :EEK!: 


S1/Episode 6 (IMDb)


goat-demon.jpg

----------


## josai21

One thing I don't understand regarding the argument for Montoya going guilty by association with Gordon is that Gordon just arrived in Gotham. Furthermore...he is supposedly a war hero. So, bias played a huge role in her going after Gordon. 

Secondly, apologizing is only sincere if you begin working to change things. Turning around and sleeping with Barbara was a jerk move. It doesn't even matter if you like Gordon or are his friend. You are fellow agents of the law. There is respect that should be had there.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Wait, is 42 eyes right because you forgot to double 21?  Don't some of the face cards have only one eye showing?  I'm curious enough about this to wonder but not enough to look it up.  I wonder what Nygma's favorite video games are.

Loved Bruce and Selina!  Every bit of it, and Jim's reasoning that Selina is more likely to help having met the victim is sound.  I felt bad about her obvious lie concerning her mother.  She really needs to show Bruce the REAL Gotham.  The biggest unanswered question of the episode, though, is...was Bruce able to hit Selina with the biscuit?  Did they kiss?!  I'm assuming not since they probably don't want that off camera, but...what happened?

That Arkham Asylum stuff...brr.  Same with Harvey Dent showing signs of Big Bad Harv.

It was shocking seeing Barbara with Montoya (as it was meant to be), but I didn't see it as Barbara cheating on Jim.  She clearly broke up with him (or "took a break") and Jim knows it.  Heck, Selina and Bullock knew it too.  It makes little sense for Barbara to want to be in a relationship with Montoya since she comes with the same baggage as Gordon, but to seek comfort in her?  I buy it.  Barbara is really shaken by this whole thing...to the point she knows how to properly spell Zsasz's name and is able to write it so neatly in her letter.




> Being a total dork, I'll point out that Aunt Harriet was actually Dick's aunt not Bruce's.


Argh, right you are.  Has Bruce EVER had extended family show up in any continuity?




> Hell, Barbara would be shocked to find out that her mother was in a relationship with another woman


Maybe the Barbara we all knew and grew up with, but a Barbara Gordon born after 2014 will probably be raised in a more open and accepting world and not find it that weird.




> the interaction between Bruce, Selina and Alfred was a nice change of pace ... though I hated their too-cutesy food fight.  I know I said GOTHAM should be subtitled BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE, but I didn't mean that literally.


I'm really hoping this show lasts to at least season five.  Can you imagine what an 18 year old Bruce Wayne and a 20 year old Selina Kyle will be like having this foundation?  More growth and maturity than five years of Smallville, I'm betting.




> I'm assuming Falcone will be killed and the crime structure of Gotham drastically change at the end of the season.


I still think Falcone is going to survive and be around by the time Bruce becomes Batman.  However, they could still incapacitate him in some way so there is a power vacuum.  Coma, maybe?




> Since they mention "The Flying Graysons" being on the show, my guess is they'll introduce John and Mary Grayson (what was her maiden name in canon?) as newly married teenagers (maybe 18 or 19 years old), just a few years older than both Bruce (12) and Selina (14).


These days with Dick Grayson being in his 20's and Bruce probably somewhere in his 30's, it's easier to see their relationship as older brother/younger brother, but this feels more like a classic situation where it's father/son, so it would make sense for Bruce Wayne to be closer age-wise to Dick's parents.  I'm just wondering who will be born first, Dick Grayson or Barbara Gordon?

----------


## godisawesome

My prediction for this week: Fish is Falcone's daughter. It's how she knows about his ledger, how she knows his favorite aria, why she's still alive, and she's a composite of Long Halloween's Selina and the 60s Catwoman.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> My prediction for this week: Fish is Falcone's daughter. It's how she knows about his ledger, how she knows his favorite aria, why she's still alive, and she's a composite of Long Halloween's Selina and the 60s Catwoman.


Interesting theory. I certainly get the Eartha Kitt vibe from her. Despite Jada's hamming it up, I really find her to be a hoot. And flirting with Alfred? Wow.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> My prediction for this week: Fish is Falcone's daughter. It's how she knows about his ledger, how she knows his favorite aria, why she's still alive, and she's a composite of Long Halloween's Selina and the 60s Catwoman.


Now THAT is a very interesting idea.  

We've already met a very likely candidate for Fish Mooney's mom (the unnamed elderly singer), and the altered origin story Fish told could easily slot in Carmine Falcone, and position him as her abusive dad.  It would answer a lot of questions about their twisted relationship.  And Jada could pass for biracial (esp with those two as her parents).

----------


## PretenderNX01

'Gotham' showrunner: Killing iconic characters not entirely off the table
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/20/go...ng-characters/

The headline says "yes" but if you ask me he was saying "probably not":
_I wouldnt say its iron clad. Youd need a damn good reason to do it and a damn good end game to justify it. Were certainly just learning the ropes at this stage. Not to be modest about it, but were still learning how to do a show this big. Im always deeply reluctant to kill off characters simply for the shock value of killing them off. Im not averse to cheap tricks. But apart from anything else, this season literally every actor has come through and [performed really strong]. I would hate to lose any of them. Killing off Sean Bean in the first season of Game of Thrones made everyone go, Oh, what a good idea that is! But I dont think its a good idea if youve got Sean Bean. The bad one was on Deadwood, when they had David Carradine doing that marvelous Wild Bill Hickok, and then he was gone._

He also adds about Harley not being in this season that there are definitely plans for her later on.

He also makes a joke about Ra's still being in Ghul School that people take way to seriously. The Internet is full of idiots.  :Frown: 




> Interesting to think that in this Gotham, Bruce may have known the Graysons some time before their demise.


Bruce knowing the Graysons would make his adopting their kid less random.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Wait, is 42 eyes right because you forgot to double 21?  Don't some of the face cards have only one eye showing?  I'm curious enough about this to wonder but not enough to look it up.


One of the Jack's is a one-eyed Jack but then I got curious and googled "cards eyes" and found 2 Jacks were:
_All queens are full face - 4x4=16 
King of diamonds is in profile - 3x4=12+2=14 
Jack of clubs and diamonds are full face - 2x4=8 
Jacks of spades and hearts are in profile - 2x2=4 
Therefore, 42 eyes. I checked 3 different sets of playing cards to verify this._ 
http://www*****trivia.com/askft/Question12929.html

----------


## heyevaxx

I humbly request that spoilers be posted within the spoil markup:


```

[spoil] spoiler test [/spoil] 


```

I carefully avoid reading or viewing articles and previews of future episodes. I'm going to watch for sure and I don't want any reveals to be... well, spoiled.

I know it's a great show and everyone wants to share which is totally cool. Just please use the spoiler tags for previews, stuff from the producers and actors about upcoming episodes, etc.

*spoilers:*
Thank you!!!
*end of spoilers*

----------


## ispacehead

> 'Gotham' showrunner: Killing iconic characters not entirely off the table
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/20/go...ng-characters/
> 
> The headline says "yes" but if you ask me he was saying "probably not"


I got the same thing. 

Not the first time I've seen Heller's statements misrepresented.




> Bruce knowing the Graysons would make his adopting their kid less random.


Exactly.  :Wink:

----------


## Dzetoun

> Argh, right you are.  Has Bruce EVER had extended family show up in any continuity?


Yes, the Kane family are his cousins.  Uncle Philip, who appeared in _Zero Year_, is also a Kane.






> These days with Dick Grayson being in his 20's and Bruce probably somewhere in his 30's, it's easier to see their relationship as older brother/younger brother, but this feels more like a classic situation where it's father/son, so it would make sense for Bruce Wayne to be closer age-wise to Dick's parents.  I'm just wondering who will be born first, Dick Grayson or Barbara Gordon?


Traditionally Barbara is older, although by how much has varied a lot over the years.  In the New 52, they seem to be about the same age.

----------


## Abishai100

Why are these comic book programs so seemingly egregiously paranoid?

Is there something about modern urbanization jurisprudence intrigue fantasy-adventure stories that create natural curiosities about crazy terrorism?

Remember when there were reports of anthrax distribution related terrorism following 9/11?

When Bob Kane surmised terrorism-magnification characters such as Harley Quinn, he must have been forecasting society's fascination with 'psychiatric escapism.'

How do you guys feel about the presentation of Harvey Dent?



 :EEK!: 

Two-Face

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Why are these comic book programs so seemingly egregiously paranoid?
> 
> Is there something about modern urbanization jurisprudence intrigue fantasy-adventure stories that create natural curiosities about crazy terrorism?
> 
> Remember when there were reports of anthrax distribution related terrorism following 9/11?
> 
> When Bob Kane surmised terrorism-magnification characters such as Harley Quinn, he must have been forecasting society's fascination with 'psychiatric escapism.'
> 
> How do you guys feel about the presentation of Harvey Dent?
> ...



I like Harvey so far. I want to see more of him fighting crime but slowly having his anger issues present themselves. They can build on this for YEARS literally and I would find it fascinating.

----------


## Abishai100

Nicholas D'Agosto is doing a fine job of presenting Harvey Dent on "Gotham" (Fox TV) as a man subtly tortured by the details of the law.  It's rather easy imagining him as the future Two-Face, the ultimate 'justice stickler' from hell.

They haven't done anything with Ivy Pepper since Episode 1.




 :EEK!: 

Ivy Pepper

----------


## DurararaFTW

> It's rather easy imagining him as the future Two-Face, the ultimate 'justice stickler' from hell.


Indeed it is, in fact I'd say nothing else needs to happen to the character other then meeting Batman and getting acid splashed in his face. I don't think that's neccesarily a good thing however.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Indeed it is, in fact I'd say nothing else needs to happen to the character other then meeting Batman and getting acid splashed in his face. I don't think that's neccesarily a good thing however.


Well it's not like Harvey's Two-Face persona just happened overnight in any other adaption (Joker's the one who is insta-crazy). They seem to always show Two Face as being in development for some time which makes sense if we are dealing with mental illness as that usually takes hold by early 20s if not earlier.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> Well it's not like Harvey's Two-Face persona just happened overnight in any other adaption (Joker's the one who is insta-crazy). They seem to always show Two Face as being in development for some time which makes sense if we are dealing with mental illness as that usually takes hold by early 20s if not earlier.


Well, technically I'd say the original version did "snap" as a result of his beautiful face being scarred, but that was before they really put much thought or plausibility into these things.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well, technically I'd say the original version did "snap" as a result of his beautiful face being scarred, but that was before they really put much thought or plausibility into these things.


Right, Pre-_COIE_, Harvey didn't have any known mental issues before the acid toss. However, I think the later interpretation makes more sense to me.

----------


## GrandKaiser

Harvey and Bruce went to high school together in the comics -___-

----------


## brucekent12

Entirely different concept for this series!

----------


## GlennSimpson

> Harvey and Bruce went to high school together in the comics -___-


It's going to be so rude of this punk Batman going around beating up all these senior citizens  :Smile:

----------


## The Batlord

To all you people who don't like the new Alfred: suck on it. Alfred be beatin' dat ass.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> To all you people who don't like the new Alfred: suck on it. Alfred be beatin' dat ass.


He's not the Alfred of my youth, but he really is great.

----------


## GrandKaiser

How cool would it be if Judson Caspian (The Reaper from Batman Year Two) was introduced in this show. He was Gotham's first vigilante

I hate this show but I'd watch that episode

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 10 "Lovecraft"  The opening scene with the kids was probably their best so far.  This was the first time I didn't find them annoying.  This was Sean Pertwee's best episode yet.  It's always nice to see Alfred kick some ass and I liked seeing him yell at Gordon and Bullock.  Gordon was great during the scene in the Mayor's office.  Looking forward to developing Arkham Asylum.

----------


## tabo61

I liked that plot twist of Jim Gordon being assigned to Arkham.  He's going to hell.

----------


## Nite-Wing

aww Bruce got a kiss
Still not as good an episode as I expected for a mid season finale

----------


## GrandKaiser

Why does the state of New Jersey fund Arkham, it's a mental asylum not a prison

----------


## colossus34

Alfred has won me over. Sad to see Bullock disappearing into the background as he's one of my fav characters on the show.

I did find it annoying that they keep making young Bruce very timid, and emasculated around Selina. Why does he have to talk to her like a subordinate? "Yes, ma'am." This feels like try hard way to make her seem strong and Bruce weak. No need to make the men or boys on a show look impotent to show us how cool Catgirl is.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

anyone else notice how monday is suddenly just another boring day with gotham on hiatus for the rest of the year?

quite sad how this show was making me look forward to mondays and now all i have to look forward to is another crappy edition of monday night raw

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Why does the state of New Jersey fund Arkham, it's a mental asylum not a prison


It's supposed to be part of a prison-alternative/treatment center so it's part of the criminal justice system and probably a PR boost to state officials who think it will do well.



> Harvey and Bruce went to high school together in the comics -___-


...and Bruce and Hush knew each other as kids in the comics and yet we swap out Dent for someone else (Selina in this case) and people claim Bruce knowing them before being Batman is too much. It's just a swap. 




> It's going to be so rude of this punk Batman going around beating up all these senior citizens


Because 40 is a senior citizen? Take your avatar's advice.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> No need to make the men or boys on a show look impotent to show us how cool Catgirl is.


I don't think it's a gender thing. He's inexperienced on the streets and she's his teacher. Nothing everything is a conspiracy to keep men down.

----------


## MykeHavoc

Ass-kicking Alfred was the highlight of my day. I was literally screaming at my TV in delight.

----------


## The Batlord

> Why does the state of New Jersey fund Arkham, it's a mental asylum not a prison


They do have state-run mental health facilities.




> Episode 10 "Lovecraft"


Am I the only one who giggles every time they hear "Dick Lovecraft"?

----------


## Godzilla2099

Good episode.  I just wish there would have been more to this hit on Selina.  So if it wasn't the billionaire then who put the green light on it?

As much as I love Alfred, I'm surprised he didn't get killed.  The twist at the end was good.  It will make for some interesting stories.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> On Monday's fall finale, “Gotham” will introduce Larissa Diaz, a.k.a. Copperhead (Lesley-Ann Brandt), the latest in a long line of known quantities from the DC Universe making their way onto the Fox show early. ”We definitely went for it Season 1,” Stephens admitted of the crop of characters they've introduced already. And Copperhead won't be the last, he teased, as the final DC biggie in this 22-episode run will be inserted into Episode 14 (which, at the time of our interview, just began filming) or 15, then they're going to take a break from that deluge until Season 2.





> “We'll also peel back another onion layer of the Wayne Industries mystery that we have planted a couple of times in the season.”


http://www.thewrap.com/gotham-fox-co...-bruno-heller/

Looks like they've been setting up stuff and now will be moving to following up on it.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Well this show has certainly been more successful in bringing us an engaging young Catwoman than the pathetic efforts of the nu52.

Camren's Selina is rough around the edges but endearing. That part in the phone booth where she grudgingly shoves a quarter to Bruce made me laugh. And that rooftop chase scene was done really well and puts a new spin to the classic batcat encounter.

"Pls don't run off again, I'm out of breath". Haha.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Good episode.  I just wish there would have been more to this hit on Selina.  So if it wasn't the billionaire then who put the green light on it?
> 
> As much as I love Alfred, I'm surprised he didn't get killed.  The twist at the end was good.  It will make for some interesting stories.


 I think we find out next season. There must be some significance to that silver box she stole or it wouldn't feature so prominently in the ending.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> It's just 
> I don't think it's a gender thing. He's inexperienced on the streets and she's his teacher. Nothing everything is a conspiracy to keep men down.


Lol. It's actually good that this show isn't writing him as some know it all bat godling.

----------


## Rac7d*

Ivy peppers was disturbing me. She got the  look, and thy explained how she will get a good education to become a biochemist/botanist in the future. Though I never thought that she and Cat would be friends

----------


## The Batlord

> Ivy peppers was disturbing me. She got the  look, and thy explained how she will get a good education to become a biochemist/botanist in the future. Though I never thought that she and Cat would be friends


I like how she was irrationally aggressive, yet curiously flirty, while he was just kind of freaked out and confused. A good start to their dynamic.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Lol. It's actually good that this show isn't writing him as some know it all bat godling.


Agreed. Inexperience isn't weakness and it would be weird for him to know everything about everything just by being alive. 



> I think we find out next season. There must be some significance to that silver box she stole or it wouldn't feature so prominently in the ending.


I was just thinking that as I was going over the ep in my mind and came here to ask if anyone else felt that way
vlcsnap-2014-11-25-11h40m32s195.jpg

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Loved this fall (mid-season) finale episode:

Penguin showing his survival instincts and wits again.

Falcone terrifying everyone in his "family".

Dent screwing everything up.

Bullock finally meeting Alfred for the first time and then teaming up with him.

Fish flirting with Alfred (and vice versa).

Copperhead looking like a lethal version of Padma Lakshmi from TOP CHEF.

Ivy Pepper finally makes an appearance, and it's a good one, to boot!

Nygma's surprisingly heartfelt brief good-bye.

Gordon mouthing off to the mayor and getting reassigned to Arkham Asylum as punishment.

and now the three main stars of the episode:

David Mazouz is doing such a much better job as pre-Batman Bruce in GOTHAM than Tom Welling did as pre-Superman Clark in the same point of the 1st season of SMALLVILLE.  He is both serious, angry, afraid, daring and (esp around Selina) vulnerable.  I have zero trouble envisioning this boy growing up into the Batman I know and love.  And this episode was technically his first real adventure.

Camren Bicondova is making Selina Kyle more central to this Batman's story than Lois Lane & Lana Lang combined for Superman.  I love that Bruce, clearly out of his isolated element, followed Selina's lead, both b/c she's way more street-wise and b/c she's also older (those 2 extra years mean a lot at this age).  LOVED the kiss she stole from him at the end.

Sean Pertwee is redefining my expectations for Alfred Pennyworth.  Alfred has been getting progressively tougher as the decades rolled on.  Compare BATMAN '66's Alfred to BATMAN '89's Alfred (sharper tongue) to B:TAS Alfred (former intelligence officer) to THE DARK KNIGHT's Alfred (Bruce is clearly his "son") to BEWARE THE BATMAN's Alfred (quantum leap in toughness) and finally to GOTHAM's Alfred (most badass version yet).  Basically Alfred is becoming more and more Batmannish in his ways, and I am all for continuing this gradual development.  I wonder how tough Jeremy Irons' version will be in BVS : DOJ?

Two months (or so) till the next new ep in January  :Frown:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> David Mazouz is doing such a much better job as pre-Batman Bruce in GOTHAM than Tom Welling did as pre-Superman Clark in the same point of the 1st season of SMALLVILLE.  He is both serious, angry, afraid, daring and (esp around Selina) vulnerable.  I have zero trouble envisioning this boy growing up into the Batman I know and love.  And this episode was technically his first real adventure.


I never thought Tom Welling, though likeable as Clark, was ever really that good of an actor. David Mazouz, OTOH, has serious acting chops at such a young age. 




> I wonder how tough Jeremy Irons' version will be in BVS : DOJ?


Following the progression Alfred is making, I believe he will become Batman himself!  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I like how she was irrationally aggressive, yet curiously flirty, while he was just kind of freaked out and confused. A good start to their dynamic.


Ivy was a question mark for me after her first appearance in the pilot, but I don't feel that way anymore. Looks like she will be a compelling presence on the show in the future.

----------


## The Batlord

> I wonder how tough Jeremy Irons' version will be in BVS : DOJ?


It will be quite bland, I assure you.

----------


## Randumbz

Not gonna lie, a lot of things in this episode made me cringe. Ivy, the unnecessarily sexual stuff that the assassin lady was doing, the guy who betrayed Selina were all poorly done. The action scenes, Selina and Bruce interactions and what Gordon said to the mayor were pretty good though.

----------


## Powerboy

Really good episode.  This is the first one where Bruce Wayne really emerged as the main character or at least equally significant with other characters.  Liked the growing "friendship" between Batman to be and Catwoman to be.

One little joke I couldn't help running in my mind was (cue fake British accent): "Whut?  Sure he's a 12 year old but he's a millionaire 12 year old.  He doesn't have a bloody cell phone?"

But that one piece of arguably dramatic license made for a great story line.  Or maybe he just didn't have it on him at the moment.

----------


## phonogram12

> Lol. It's actually good that this show isn't writing him as some know it all bat godling.


I actually agree with this. If he knows and can do everything now, he might as well just put on the suit already. I'm looking forward to actually witnessing the evolution of the character and seeing the steps he's going to take into becoming Gotham City's biggest badass. :Smile: 

Ivy was probably my favorite part of the episode, though. She is just so creepy and weird it's awesome! Alfred pretty much owning every scene he was in wasn't too shabby, either.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Alfred was awesome in this episode!

My favorite line:

Bullock: You're pretty handy for a valet.

Alfred: Butler, mate. I'm the butler.

----------


## heyevaxx

What an episode! Lovecraft was great.

Selina and Bruce: so many excellent moments. I think a lot of Cat's little lies and manipulations with Bruce really captures the comic Selina well. E.g. her lying to Bruce that the assassins were after him just so they could spend more time together: classic Selina! And we got some roof running, nice! Loved Selina easily  making the jump and Bruce not being daunted and barely (with some help) making it. And the kiss! Wow, that was directed, acted and edited to a tee, perfect. I think that goes down and one of the great BatCat kisses, really perfect for Gotham.

Ivy: nice to see her again and it was worth the wait. She - was - creepy. I like how she was twitchy and was being eaten by the (wrongful or at least unnecessary) killing of her father and tragic suicide of her mother. This will probably come down on Gordon again.

Falcone: I just can't see Don Falcone rising to power in Gotham and being easily taken down. I'm just not sure if he'll only destroy Fish or if he'll also wisen up to Penguin's machinations. I liked Falcone's dinner table execution and speech. Notice how 2 of his captains complained about the 25% tariff but Fish didn't? Followed by that little smile the Don gave Fish right as he started eating. And the executed guy is there the whole time! John Doman carries himself with so much gravitas, I find myself rooting for him. Also, Jada acted very well in those scenes at the table: uncertain, a little scared but trying to look calm and confident.

Alfred: wow, Alf is a total BAMF! I really enjoyed this and it's been telegraphed all season that this is a new, gruff, tough Alfred. He just contained himself until unleashing a can of whoop butt was appropriate and not showy. How very British!  :Smile:  I also loved his pairing with with Harv who's ready to torture the kid for info and trade favors with Fish. Nope, that's not how Alfred works: a $100 bribe easily gets the info from the teen informant and Alf puts on the charm to get Fish to help. I think Fish was genuinely charmed but she knew and pointed it out that she'll want payback some day. Real nice acting from both Sean and Jada in that scene.

Mayor James: this guy is awesome. I've thought well of his portrayal all season but he really shined with Lovecraft. He's kind of slimy just from the way he talks but he also comes across as savvy and authoritative. I loved his comparison of Harvey Dent who knows how to walk the line and then how Gordon does not know where the edge is.

Production: the show is so slick and well produced outside of the great writing, casting, directing and acting. Little things can make big differences. Like when Selina hands Bruce the little bag of stuff she had stolen from Wayne Manor. Bruce opens the bag and looked in and it appeared so sharp. Was it CGI, special digital photography or special post-production? It just flashes by but they put thought, time and money into that little shot for just a second to make it look really cool.

Music: whoever is picking this music for Gotham is incredible. They're using a lot of late 60s to late 70s plus some 80s and 90s songs. The mix is eclectic and doesn't easily pin to a single era but usually feels very New York, probably since a lot of it is punk related. For Lovecraft there are 2 new gems.

In their second scene at the Flea, when Selina buys Bruce some non-mega-preppy clothes the Sex Pistols "New York" is playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcYls25VaQM

When Cat and Bruce walk into the office for Clyde The Fence, Bauhaus' "Dark Entries" is playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8n6k8QcU3k

Last but not least Jim Gordon: "Mayor James, kiss my @ss!" Wow! Jim boldly said that with conviction. The Mayor had just torn down and attacked everything Jim stands for: being honest, doing right and seeking justice. And after that blast, Mayor James doesn't blink and sternly stares at Jim as he walks out to do the presser. Great scene for both of them! But, zinging the mayor like that isn't without repercussions: off to Arkham Asylum for you mister do-gooder! And who will be Harv's new partner? Mid-season cliff hangers ...

Wow, what a fantastic first half season. I'm enjoying this Gotham as much or really more than the New52 Gotham world. 

PS - *Gotham (probably!) RENEWED*
http://ontheflix.com/2014/11/24/new-...-winter-break/
_Harvey Dent star, Nicholas D'Agosto', recently told Zap2it that he has been promoted to a season regular for season 2! So, that means that they are definitely planning to bring the show back for another season, though a season 2 renewal hasn't been official announced by Fox yet._

----------


## heyevaxx

http://www.soundonsight.org/gotham-s...-10-lovecraft/
_Stick a batarang on your calendars for Gotham’s return January 5th, 2015 at 8pm on FOX._

----------


## heyevaxx

Credit to The TV Addict http://www.thetvaddict.com/2014/11/2...-project-more/ for these great behind the scenes shots.

Jim and Harv flashing some weird GCPD hand sign:


Filming the Mayor, Gordon and Dent scene:


Selina behind the camera! What's this all about I wonder? It's really an awesome amount of technology that goes into creating this art: that camera dolly, the rails, the camera, the dolly operator and of course the camera operator. Amazing.

----------


## heyevaxx

Ivy close-up being shot:


Jim Gordon making the camera operator very nervous:

----------


## Toreador

> Really good episode.  This is the first one where Bruce Wayne really emerged as the main character or at least equally significant with other characters.  Liked the growing "friendship" between Batman to be and Catwoman to be.
> 
> One little joke I couldn't help running in my mind was (cue fake British accent): "Whut?  Sure he's a 12 year old but he's a millionaire 12 year old.  He doesn't have a bloody cell phone?"
> 
> But that one piece of arguably dramatic license made for a great story line.  Or maybe he just didn't have it on him at the moment.


Bruce is pretty much a loner right now and never far from Alfred's side, why would he need a cell phone?

----------


## Black_Adam

So who is pulling the strings really, who hired Copperhead to take out Lovecraft and Selina? I seriously don't think Falcone is the mastermind behind all of it has to be someone or something else, Court of Owls? They were one of the first things that came to mind, would love to see a Talon in the 2nd half of the season.

Also Jim going to work at Arkham is unexpected but cool, think he'll almost definitely run into Hugo Strange there and who knows who else. After a slow start Gotham is starting to pick up some steam now, really excited for the 2nd half of the season.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> Bruce is pretty much a loner right now and never far from Alfred's side, why would he need a cell phone?


For surfing the Internet? He probably has one but since they left Wayne Manor in a hurry, didn't get a chance to take it with him.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> What an episode! Lovecraft was great.
> 
> Selina and Bruce: so many excellent moments. I think a lot of Cat's little lies and manipulations with Bruce really captures the comic Selina well. E.g. her lying to Bruce that the assassins were after him just so they could spend more time together: classic Selina! And we got some roof running, nice! Loved Selina easily  making the jump and Bruce not being daunted and barely (with some help) making it. And the kiss! Wow, that was directed, acted and edited to a tee, perfect. I think that goes down and one of the great BatCat kisses, really perfect for Gotham.
> 
> Alfred: wow, Alf is a total BAMF! I really enjoyed this and it's been telegraphed all season that this is a new, gruff, tough Alfred. He just contained himself until unleashing a can of whoop butt was appropriate and not showy. How very British!  I also loved his pairing with with Harv who's ready to torture the kid for info and trade favors with Fish. Nope, that's not how Alfred works: a $100 bribe easily gets the info from the teen informant and Alf puts on the charm to get Fish to help. I think Fish was genuinely charmed but she knew and pointed it out that she'll want payback some day. Real nice acting from both Sean and Jada in that scene.


Selina really shined in the last two episodes. She's written rather tough and unlikeable, but Camren makes her endearing at the same time. They struck gold with this kid.

We see Bruce learn from Selina, but I hope the writers explore the reverse next year. For instance, we know she's being taken  for a ride by fences because she doesn't know the intrinsic value of high end stuff she steals. It takes Bruce to point out how much his stuff was worth and haggle for her. Hopefully Bruce's influence gets her to do a bit more planning and research on her mini heists. Wouldn't that be ironic?

I want to see more Fish Alfred scenes next year. Alfred sweet talking Mooney was pretty fun.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Bit early for a mid-season break, no?
Anyway, I have to admit this series has been great so far, much better then what I was expecting, they have the majority of the cast nailed and clicking, Bruce and Selina were great together, Alfred is just a total badass. Hope they give Dent some time to shine though, he is the only major player I am iffy on.

----------


## Agent Z

Loved Alfred in this episode. His hug with Bruce really tugged at the heart strings. 

Does anyone find it odd that Bruce knows three of his future Rogues Gallery as children? We're getting into Muppet Babies territory here. 

Alfred and Fish's scene certainly explains how Bruce can get not one but two villainesses to fall for him. 

Weird as it is, I kind of liked Copperhead going out her way to spare Bruce and Jim. Whether its pragmatic or some sense of nobility on her part, it was a nice touch.

----------


## brucekent12

Best episode yet! I could see a scene coming up where Fish asks Alfred to lie or cover up something to Jim as payback for her giving info to help find Selina and Bruce.Things will get sticky for the butler I think!

----------


## colossus34

> Does anyone find it odd that Bruce knows three of his future Rogues Gallery as children? We're getting into Muppet Babies territory here. 
> .


I've given up trying to figure that out, at this point I dont think this show can be looked at from regular continuity. This is obviously some sort of elseworld tale from here on out. Nothing in this mythology would fit into the current timelines even by the most conservative estimates. I wouldn't be surprised if this version of Bruce has a much more compressed world traveling period and maybe comes back to be Batman in Gotham before his 18th bday.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> I've given up trying to figure that out, at this point I dont think this show can be looked at from regular continuity. This is obviously some sort of elseworld tale from here on out. Nothing in this mythology would fit into the current timelines even by the most conservative estimates. I wouldn't be surprised if this version of Bruce has a much more compressed world traveling period and maybe comes back to be Batman in Gotham before his 18th bday.


Considering every media iteration has had several differences, I'm not sure why this is surprising.  Every timeline has been pretty different.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> considering every media iteration has had several differences, i'm not sure why this is surprising.  Every timeline has been pretty different.


this..........

----------


## JohnnyGoodboy

I thought the whole sending Gordon off to be a security guard at Arkham was stupid and spoilt what had been a good episode before then. The whole "LoveCraft killed himself with your gun so now you're a guard in a mental hospital" was a bit strange. Gordon being pretty pleased with himself seemed a bit off too with his reasoning of  "I'm not quitting , It's what they want me to do." It's not like he got assigned to desk duty. He's not a cop now.

----------


## Powerboy

> Considering every media iteration has had several differences, I'm not sure why this is surprising.  Every timeline has been pretty different.


Yes.  I'm amazed anyone thought this would follow comic book continuity (and which comic book continuity for that matter?).  

In some versions, Bruce never encountered Selina Kyle until he was Batman and she Catwoman.  In others, (Batman Year One), they met just before he became Batman.  

The Penguin and the Riddler are much older than Bruce so no "Muppet Babies" there and having Catwoman meet him when they are this young is a new continuity that almost begs to be told.  Not doing so would be throwing away a fantastic story and character opportunity for some rigid adherence to some previous versions of continuity.  It would be a waste to even do a show like this if you aren't going to take advantage of it and have these various characters be integral to each other's development.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Does anyone find it odd that Bruce knows three of his future Rogues Gallery as children? We're getting into Muppet Babies territory here.


In the comics he knows Harvey as a kid, Black Mask as a kid and Hush as a kid. That you can accept?

----------


## king of hybrids

> So who is pulling the strings really, who hired Copperhead to take out Lovecraft and Selina? I seriously don't think Falcone is the mastermind behind all of it has to be someone or something else, Court of Owls? They were one of the first things that came to mind, would love to see a Talon in the 2nd half of the season.
> 
> Also Jim going to work at Arkham is unexpected but cool, think he'll almost definitely run into Hugo Strange there and who knows who else. After a slow start Gotham is starting to pick up some steam now, really excited for the 2nd half of the season.


while lovecraft's mention of a maze and the leaving bruce alive does hint towards the owls (they want to maintain a semblance of stability); involvement in the wayne killings makes me thin it'll be hurt. the owls don't hire assassins or 3rd party lackies to do their dirty work; hurt does.

----------


## Rac7d*

We should meet the boy who will be bane in the next half right? Wanst he rasied in arkham or somthig

----------


## The Kid

One thing this show made me wonder about the comics is whether or not Bruce and Selina know each other? I mean just their civilian lives.

----------


## Rafa-Rivas-2099

> In the comics he knows Harvey as a kid, Black Mask as a kid and Hush as a kid. That you can accept?


That's not much, actually.

----------


## Randumbz

So when do the new episodes air?

----------


## PretenderNX01

> One thing this show made me wonder about the comics is whether or not Bruce and Selina know each other? I mean just their civilian lives.


Depends on the continuity. Old 52 they knew figured each other out. Pre-Crisis Earth 2 they got married and had Huntress. I don't know New52  :Stick Out Tongue: 
Batman usually knows Catwoman is Selena even if she doesn't always know he's Bruce Wayne.




> That's not much, actually.


Three villains he knows as a kid in the comics and on the show there's 3- Tommy again and Ivy and Selena replacing Roman and Harvey. Roman could still show up or they may have figured they did their Black Mask.




> So when do the new episodes air?


January but I don't know if it's right away on the 5th or not.

----------


## Abishai100

I like this show.

"Gotham" (Fox TV) makes me curious about a great deal including the following three eerie considerations:

1. Are these high-profile comic book adapted entertainment programs being marketed properly so as not to incorrectly sway impressionable youth?  Remember when the crime-glorification Hollywood (USA) movie "Natural Born Killers" (1994) seemed to be spawning copycat killers in America?

2. Is the introduction of Batman's most 'sane' sounding vigilantism-maniac Harvey Dent (the future villainous Two-Face) addressing social fascination with jurisprudence frailties?

3. Since this show presents views on the paranoia associated with the development of crime in urban areas, how does the characterization of the Riddler, Poison Ivy, Penguin, and Harvey Dent (Two-Face) so far represent media focus on modern life?





 :EEK!: 


The Jungle


Gotham (2).jpg

----------


## The Kid

> Depends on the continuity. Old 52 they knew figured each other out. Pre-Crisis Earth 2 they got married and had Huntress. I don't know New52 
> Batman usually knows Catwoman is Selena even if she doesn't always know he's Bruce Wayne.
> 
> 
> Three villains he knows as a kid in the comics and on the show there's 3- Tommy again and Ivy and Selena replacing Roman and Harvey. Roman could still show up or they may have figured they did their Black Mask.
> 
> 
> January but I don't know if it's right away on the 5th or not.


I don't mean if they know their secret identities. I mean do Bruce and Selina know each other personally? As in do they interact outside the suit even when Selina doesn't know who he is

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I don't mean if they know their secret identities. I mean do Bruce and Selina know each other personally? As in do they interact outside the suit even when Selina doesn't know who he is


As I recall in the old 52 at the beginning of the Hush storyline Bruce and Selena went to the opera together. I think both knew each other's ID by then. 

I found a website with some examples of Bruce and Selena through the years
http://bamsmackpow.com/2014/11/20/go...e-selina-kyle/

----------


## The Kid

> As I recall in the old 52 at the beginning of the Hush storyline Bruce and Selena went to the opera together. I think both knew each other's ID by then. 
> 
> I found a website with some examples of Bruce and Selena through the years
> http://bamsmackpow.com/2014/11/20/go...e-selina-kyle/


Thanks a lot!

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Copperhead was one scary lady!  I love how equal opportunity this show is.  Doesn't matter if the bad guy is male or female, Gordon will trade blows with them just the same.  Best Gordon moment was "Kiss my ass", of course.  Didn't see him being transferred to Arkham coming.  How possible is it that Montoya will be Bullock's new partner?  Unlikely, probably, but it'd be nice.

Loved Bruce and Selina, and they got to kiss!  Alfred was great this episode.  He and Fish had better interact again and soon.

In just one hour we got five A-list Batman villains (Penguin, Riddler, Catwoman, Ivy, and Two-Face) and it DIDN'T feel crowded like Batman The Movie.  Good job juggling such a huge cast, show!




> Yes, the Kane family are his cousins.  Uncle Philip, who appeared in _Zero Year_, is also a Kane.


Cool, thanks!  I think I knew about the Kane family.




> Ivy peppers was disturbing me. She got the  look, and thy explained how she will get a good education to become a biochemist/botanist in the future. Though I never thought that she and Cat would be friends


Why not?  It's Gotham Girls Jr!  Ivy is really unbalanced, but I guess that's to be expected, so Selina will probably want to keep her distance.




> Weird as it is, I kind of liked Copperhead going out her way to spare Bruce and Jim. Whether its pragmatic or some sense of nobility on her part, it was a nice touch.


She's probably all "I didn't get paid to kill you, and if I do kill a Gotham Cop or a rich kid, I sure as hell won't do it for free."




> I don't mean if they know their secret identities. I mean do Bruce and Selina know each other personally? As in do they interact outside the suit even when Selina doesn't know who he is


Reminds me of Batman the Animated Series.  Bruce "won" Selina at an auction and they remained friends but while he was interested in her romantically, she only had eyes for Batman.  You know, Selina has made several appearances on TV and in movies in the last few decades and her backstory is always incredibly different from the last.  I kinda like that, considering her comic book incarnations.

----------


## EdwardNigma

It sucks waiting until January for more episodes!

----------


## brucekent12

I


> It sucks waiting until January for more episodes!


I agree. C'mon January!

----------


## Abishai100

I want to take a look at four possible villainy scenarios for the next season (beginning January 2015):

1. Penguin creates an elaborate Arkham Asylum corruption program.
2. Fish Mooney begins a narcotics-smuggling operation using Gotham's subways.
3. Harvey Dent begins to lose his cool and employs vigilantes to work for him secretly.
4. A copycat killer of the Balloonman (from the Fall season) emerges and targets Gotham's elite.


These four crime scenarios all seem viable and worthy of exploration, and I'm sure they'll be investigated in some form or another, especially since they sound generic enough to fit the show's nice treatment of urbanization fingerprinting.


 :EEK!:

----------


## daBronzeBomma

So, since we still have another month to kill before new GOTHAM episodes air in early January, what grade would you give the first half-season (1st 10 episodes) ?  Talking about from the beginning of the "Pilot" episode through the end of the "Lovecraft" episode.

GOTHAM Season 1A grades
=================

Jim Gordon: B+.  I had my doubts about the actor from THE OC and SOUTHLAND being able to pull off this central role.  But so far, he has.  

Harvey Bullock: A+.  My favorite version of the character that I've seen.

Bruce Wayne: A. He's young, but this kid will eventually be the star of this show if it's successful long enough.  This is how you do a youthful prequel version of a superhero. 

Selina Kyle: A-.  Her slang is sometimes confusing, but I love how central they've remade Selina to their Batverse.  She is adorable/scary and has great chemistry with Bruce.  

Alfred Pennyworth:  A.  Yes, THIS is the man who could raise the Batman.  I like the prim-and-proper Alfred too, but man, this version is a breath of cockney-ed fresh air. 

Oswald Cobblepot: A+.  Favorite version of the character ever.  Breakout star of the series so far.

Fish Mooney: B-.  Intentionally scenery-chewing, campy/vampy/cartoonishly violent, with more than a little Eartha Kitt vibe.  Still, glad to have her onboard.

Carmine Falcone: B.  If GOTHAM were a sea, he's the biggest great white shark in it.  All roads lead to him (really intrigued by the idea that he may be Fish's secret & abusive dad)

Barbara Keane: C-.  The grade would be lower, but I had no real expectations of her from the start.  Babs' mom/aunt is basically a non-entity in the main Batverse, so whatever.  

Renee Montoya: F.  Complete character assassination.  The one outright gay character on the show has to be an unlikeable home-wrecking stalker?  They need to fix her in Season 1B.

Crispus Allen: D+.  Do something other than flashing those pearly whites or getting beat up by Alfred.

Edward Nygma: D.  Stop channeling Jim Carrey so much.

Sal Maroni: C-.  Dances a little too close to the Italian stereotypes sometimes, and seems like a low-rent Tony Soprano.

Ivy Pepper: C+.  Probably should be more of an "I" for "Incomplete", but her second appearance in the most recent episode WAS vastly superior to her first one in the pilot.

Harvey Dent: D-.  Really wish they had made him a classmate of Bruce alongside Tommy Elliott, but this guy is way too much of a dunce so far.  White Knight my @$$.

Tommy Elliott: B+.  So enjoyed the violent beatdown Bruce gave him, really hopes he shows up again to give us more insight into Bruce's school life.

Sarah Essen: C.  Kinda wish she and the actress soon playing Leslie Thompkins would have switched parts.  No way does Gordon fall for her.  And she's kinda blah anyways.

Victor Zsasz: C+.  Scary enough, but didn't actually kill anyone but a defenseless cop?  Loved his phone's ring-tone shtick tho.

Aubrey James: B-.  Well, he's incompetent enough (and humorously so at times) that I buy Gotham being a hellhole under his watch as Mayor, so there's that. 

*Overall GOTHAM Season 1A grade: B. * 

Lot of setup, lot of missteps, but there's more potential for awesome (that cinematography: whoo!) than capacity for awful (Montoya, ugh), IMHO.  

Can't wait for Season 1B!

What does Season 1A of GOTHAM rate from you?

----------


## EdwardNigma

I would rate Gotham as an A- so far. Entertaining and great characters. The guy who plays Edward Nigma REALLY needs to focus on making Edward more arrogant though.

----------


## Powerboy

> I would rate Gotham as an A- so far. Entertaining and great characters. The guy who plays Edward Nigma REALLY needs to focus on making Edward more arrogant though.


Pardon the pun but he's the big question mark.  With the other characters, they are already on the side of the law that you expect them to be on and you can see them becoming what they will, perhaps of necessity, eventually become.  But, with Edward Nygma, it is going to be interesting to see the entire process of how he becomes the Riddler.  Oh we can see he loves riddles but we will get to see how he becomes a criminal.

----------


## Abishai100

Imagine a real world scenario that illuminates the intricate networks of consumerism-culture corruption related underworlds:

1. an airline stewardess involved in an international in-flight smuggling network

2. a Tijuana druglord taking advantage of shoreline-borderline traffic

3. a Middle Eastern oil tycoon making conspicuously influential and controversialcontracts with the Islamic government

4. an Internet hacker working for the IRA (Irish Republican Army)



These are the sorts of realistic modern age problem related underworld scenarios that inspire writers to come up with stories about Gotham City.


I'd like to see more development of Ivy Pepper (the future Poison Ivy) next season on "Gotham" (Fox TV).  Eco-terrorism has, after all, become a coffee-shop topic.



 :EEK!: 

Batman: City of Crime


poison-ivy.jpg

----------


## Abishai100

The development of these super-villains in a brooding Gotham creates nice hype for modernized Sherlock Holmes detective stories.



 :EEK!: 

The Riddler


riddler.jpg

----------


## JoeJoe

I'm loving this show. I work so much tho so i'm behind like 1 or 2 episodes

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

I finished it last night. I dunno, I went through liking it and not liking it. It has its pros and cons. 
I like a lot of the characters, like Bullock and Alfred... but they're not MY Bullcok or Alfred... but I can accept that in a "this is the ultimate universe version" thought process. 

I hate all the bad CGI clouds all the time, it looks stupid. Just use the sky that's there and save yourself time and money. 

I don't like when they try and go too cartoony, like Selina posing like a cat or the venom guy's faces and skin... you could do it almost the same but tastefully. 

I do like how slow they're being and how everything is allowed to happen slowly, Harvey turns less evil, Gordon doesn't date Essen at all yet, Riddler isn't creepy yet just misunderstood. I like how the time for characters to develop and mature is given instead of just blurting it all out in one quick go. 

I hated Penguin at the start because he was just Elias from Clerks 2, but grew to really like him. But my oh my, his mother is such a silly cartoony painful stereotype who couldn't act worse if she tried. There's not one ounce of real life in that mother. 

So yeah, a mixed bag but with real potential. If they just keep doing the good parts right, and in season 2 become more tasteful then I think its got the potential to be great.

----------


## Powerboy

> I finished it last night. I dunno, I went through liking it and not liking it. It has its pros and cons. 
> I like a lot of the characters, like Bullock and Alfred... but they're not MY Bullcok or Alfred... but I can accept that in a "this is the ultimate universe version" thought process. 
> 
> I hate all the bad CGI clouds all the time, it looks stupid. Just use the sky that's there and save yourself time and money. 
> 
> I don't like when they try and go too cartoony, like Selina posing like a cat or the venom guy's faces and skin... you could do it almost the same but tastefully. 
> 
> I do like how slow they're being and how everything is allowed to happen slowly, Harvey turns less evil, Gordon doesn't date Essen at all yet, Riddler isn't creepy yet just misunderstood. I like how the time for characters to develop and mature is given instead of just blurting it all out in one quick go. 
> 
> ...


Like the CGI comment.  For crying out loud, just go out and film the sky

I love the slow development here.  The only problem I have is here

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/05/08/gotham-interview/

Interesting interview but pretty solidly indicates we are going to get a "Smallville" in the sense that he won't be Batman until the last episode.  Predictable and maybe the whole idea but probably not the payoff most people want.  Rather, they want to eventually see what this version of Batman will be like and not just for one minute at the end.  

I do like that he clearly states, as I thought was obvious so far, that this show has been mapped out in detail.  I really don't get the people who can believe the show doesn't know what it's about.

----------


## thewiseguy

> Like the CGI comment.  For crying out loud, just go out and film the sky
> 
> I love the slow development here.  The only problem I have is here
> 
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/05/08/gotham-interview/
> 
> Interesting interview but pretty solidly indicates we are going to get a "Smallville" in the sense that he won't be Batman until the last episode.  Predictable and maybe the whole idea but probably not the payoff most people want.  Rather, they want to eventually see what this version of Batman will be like and not just for one minute at the end.  
> 
> I do like that he clearly states, as I thought was obvious so far, that this show has been mapped out in detail.  I really don't get the people who can believe the show doesn't know what it's about.


Not sure if its just me, but I always figured it was a given that they wouldn't show too much of batman in this series... I mean its supposed to be about Gotham, which is interesting since you never actually see anything about Gotham, instead just the characters in Gotham...

As for the show itself I really loved it, except for once they started with the whole love triangle nonsense... I hate when shows start with this distracting soap opera affair

----------


## thewiseguy

> Like the CGI comment.  For crying out loud, just go out and film the sky
> 
> I love the slow development here.  The only problem I have is here
> 
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/05/08/gotham-interview/
> 
> Interesting interview but pretty solidly indicates we are going to get a "Smallville" in the sense that he won't be Batman until the last episode.  Predictable and maybe the whole idea but probably not the payoff most people want.  Rather, they want to eventually see what this version of Batman will be like and not just for one minute at the end.  
> 
> I do like that he clearly states, as I thought was obvious so far, that this show has been mapped out in detail.  I really don't get the people who can believe the show doesn't know what it's about.


Not sure if its just me, but I always figured it was a given that they wouldn't show too much of batman in this series... I mean its supposed to be about Gotham, which is interesting since you never actually see anything about Gotham, instead just the characters in Gotham...

As for the show itself I really loved it, except for once they started with the whole love triangle nonsense... I hate when shows start with this distracting soap opera affair

----------


## Abishai100

I'm feeling optimistic about the writers of this show working on story arc ideas pertinent to Ivy Pepper (the future Poison Ivy).

Poison Ivy is Gotham's most alluring eco-terrorist, and eco-terrorism is the hot topic for our times it seems.



 :EEK!: 

The Monkey Wrench Gang


ivy.jpg

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Not sure if its just me, but I always figured it was a given that they wouldn't show too much of batman in this series... I mean its supposed to be about Gotham


That and the actor playing Bruce is like 13. The show would have to be on a long time before he's even old enough to be Batman.




> I really don't get the people who can believe the show doesn't know what it's about.


For some reason people think if they don't know what the show is about then the show doesn't know.

----------


## Powerboy

> That and the actor playing Bruce is like 13. The show would have to be on a long time before he's even old enough to be Batman.


I understand that.  I had just hoped that, maybe, he might become Batman at 18.  Then, if the show ran 7 seasons, we'd at least get a couple of seasons of Batman.  But it doesn't look like that will happen.

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

Maybe it'll be like Battlestar Gallactica and Caprica.... so Gotham will never see Batman, but then the show runners start a new show called Batman ?

----------


## marvelguy25

like the overacting in the show. i mean you all agree that some moments with characters like fish mooney, harvey bullock, victor zsazz, the doctor who created the venom, etc. made you laugh right?

----------


## EdwardNigma

I want January episodes NOW!  :Smile:

----------


## brucekent12

I can't wait either. C'mon January!

----------


## Mgoldman14

What age does Bruce become Batman? And do you guys think that the show will end when Bruce grows up and becomes Batman?

----------


## EdwardNigma

> What age does Bruce become Batman? And do you guys think that the show will end when Bruce grows up and becomes Batman?


I would assume around 22.

----------


## phonogram12

If I had to guess, the show will probably end with Bruce leaving Gotham to seek out those who could teach him the skills he needs to become Batman with a flash forward at the very end of a now grownup Bruce-as-Batman meeting the newly appointed Police Commissioner James Gordon for the first time.

Or something like that.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> like the overacting in the show. i mean you all agree that some moments with characters like fish mooney, harvey bullock, victor zsazz, the doctor who created the venom, etc. made you laugh right?


No, because I buy into the fact that this isn't the real world, it's a world where one day a guy will dress like a bat and beat up the mentally ill.

----------


## GlennSimpson

> What age does Bruce become Batman? And do you guys think that the show will end when Bruce grows up and becomes Batman?


I'll go with a 10-year plan, with Bruce becoming Batman in the last episode.

That's 10 story-years.  This doesn't preclude the possibility that the actor will reach an age where he can believably play a little older and they decide to jump forward a little.  "One year later" sort of thing.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> like the overacting in the show. i mean you all agree that some moments with characters like fish mooney, harvey bullock, victor zsazz, the doctor who created the venom, etc. made you laugh right?


Why do you ask a question you know will be shot down by the vast majority of posters here? Also, since you're a self-confessed Marvel guy, I hope your post wasn't in any way meant to be trollish.

----------


## heyevaxx

IIRC in Batman Year One, Bruce left Gotham at 13 and returned at 25. He became Batman shortly after that, still at 25.

About when the show will end and how long it will run, the big driver will not be the story; it will be ratings. If it's making money, we'll keep seeing it (e.g. The Simpsons, the U.S. Office, etc.)

If the ratings go down and costs go up in season X, we'll see some kind of wrap up story. The show could hop to another network too, like NBC (who produces it) or Netflix or Amazon.

The producers need a some rough long term plan but they go for ratings episode to episode, always striving to get renewed for another season and keeping costs under control.

There's a non-business factor about long term stories and will we see Batman: David Mazouz growing up. He's listed in his IMBD resume as 5'0" and 86lbs. At 13, that's pretty small even for fit kids. I ran his stats at the CDC and got:
David Mazouz 5'0" 86lbs: BMI 16.8 placing the BMI-for-age at the 14th percentile for boys aged 13

14th percentile with 5th to 85th percentiles listed as healthy. That means he's small for healthy kids his age.

Now he may be taller/heavier than his IMDB resume lists. Camren Bicondova was 4'11" 98lbs when she was announced as Selina on Gotham. At 15 now she's 5'1" 105lbs (taller than Fish now). And if you look at Camren's dance videos when she was 10-14 she was a *lot* smaller. So she's going through a growth spurt.

What if David stays smaller than average? The 6 main Hobbit actors were 5'5" to 5'7" ... what if David got up to 5'6", is that Batman sized?  Ben McKenzie is 5'8" so I'd want Batman at least that height.

Who knows? Maybe David will go through a 3" or 4" growth spurt this off season. We'll see.

PS - Mazouz's parents are doctors! His mom is a psychotherapist and his dad is a physician.

PPS - come on January 5th!!!

----------


## Abishai100

Eco-terrorism is simply a hot issue right now in our modern world of eco-conscious politics (i.e., Green Party).

This culture trend really began with the publishing of Edward Abbey's incendiary eco-terrorism hype novel "The Monkey Wrench Gang" (1975).

If "Gotham" (Fox TV) continues to present the clever presentation of the Batman (DC Comics) adapted character Ivy Pepper (the future maniacal eco-terrorist Poison Ivy), then audiences will be drawn to the show's satisfying balance between real world intrigue and urbanization-paranoia catering entertainment.



 :EEK!: 

Ivy Pepper



pi.jpg


pi2.jpg

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> There's a non-business factor about long term stories and will we see Batman: David Mazouz growing up. He's listed in his IMBD resume as 5'0" and 86lbs. At 13, that's pretty small even for fit kids. I ran his stats at the CDC and got:
> David Mazouz 5'0" 86lbs: BMI 16.8 placing the BMI-for-age at the 14th percentile for boys aged 13
> 
> 14th percentile with 5th to 85th percentiles listed as healthy. That means he's small for healthy kids his age.
> 
> Now he may be taller/heavier than his IMDB resume lists. Camren Bicondova was 4'11" 98lbs when she was announced as Selina on Gotham. At 15 now she's 5'1" 105lbs (taller than Fish now). And if you look at Camren's dance videos when she was 10-14 she was a *lot* smaller. So she's going through a growth spurt.
> 
> What if David stays smaller than average? The 6 main Hobbit actors were 5'5" to 5'7" ... what if David got up to 5'6", is that Batman sized?  Ben McKenzie is 5'8" so I'd want Batman at least that height.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe David will go through a 3" or 4" growth spurt this off season. We'll see.


I thought about that too.  Hopefully David will grow up to be at least 5'10, and it'd be great if he cracked 6', but if not, and they do want to show him as Batman in the final episode interacting with Gordon, there's always creative camera angles.  Batman sticks to the shadows anyway.  I hope they don't have to recast.

----------


## katie

> IIRC in Batman Year One, Bruce left Gotham at 13 and returned at 25. He became Batman shortly after that, still at 25.
> 
> About when the show will end and how long it will run, the big driver will not be the story; it will be ratings. If it's making money, we'll keep seeing it (e.g. The Simpsons, the U.S. Office, etc.)
> 
> If the ratings go down and costs go up in season X, we'll see some kind of wrap up story. The show could hop to another network too, like NBC (who produces it) or Netflix or Amazon.
> 
> The producers need a some rough long term plan but they go for ratings episode to episode, always striving to get renewed for another season and keeping costs under control.
> 
> There's a non-business factor about long term stories and will we see Batman: David Mazouz growing up. He's listed in his IMBD resume as 5'0" and 86lbs. At 13, that's pretty small even for fit kids. I ran his stats at the CDC and got:
> ...



He can get up only to 5'6'' or maybe, have a strong growth spurt. Look Asa Butterfield, when he was 13 years-old (in Hugo), he was so tiny http://pad.mymovies.it/cinemanews/20...ocabret_07.jpg. Now, at 17 years-old, his IMDB lists him as 5'11'' http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2633535/?ref_=nv_sr_2. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> What if David stays smaller than average? The 6 main Hobbit actors were 5'5" to 5'7" ... what if David got up to 5'6", is that Batman sized?  Ben McKenzie is 5'8" so I'd want Batman at least that height.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe David will go through a 3" or 4" growth spurt this off season. We'll see.


That is short for an up-and-coming Batman, though. By 13, I was 5'7''. At 14, I was 5'9''. When I graduated high school, I was now 5'11'' (I grew an extra half inch in my early twenties). Though I have a large frame , I have never, ever considered myself a Batman type. Hopefully David can fool us and have a nice growth spurt, because it would be sad if someone as talented as he is might be replaced for a larger kid.

----------


## Abishai100

I was thinking about why Batman (DC Comics) is so popular among comic book fans and fans of superhero movies.

Perhaps it is because Gotham City represents all of the modern era intrigue surrounding urbanization paranoia (crime, greed, vagrancy, etc.).

The Christian Bible suggests that at the time of the prophetic apocalypse, a proverbial army of darkness will rise to wage war against humanity on many fronts.

Perhaps it is indeed an army of darkness that challenges our modern world's management of high-traffic urban areas.

"Gotham" (Fox TV) has already introduced fans of Batman (DC Comics) to a plethora of dastardly maniacs such as Edward Nygma (the future diabolical Riddler), Ivy Pepper (the future ominous Poison Ivy), and Oswald Cobblepot (the future bizarre Penguin).

Penguin is just the type of nemesis to devise a Gotham City traffic light network malfunction; Poison Ivy just might dump dangerous toxins in Gotham's water reservoir.

I want to see how the development of Jim Gordon next season on "Gotham" (Fox TV) illuminates some of the general social meanderings associated with modern 'urbanization soothsaying.'




 :EEK!: 

James Gordon


gordon.jpg

----------


## PretenderNX01

> it's a world where one day a guy will dress like a bat and beat up the mentally ill.


That's the funniest description of Batman ever! I actually laughed out loud. 

I like the throwback style "Gotham" does including the actors, I suppose if one wants serious they can watch something like "Arrow" since I don't know much from Marvel that offers it  :Stick Out Tongue: 
Tony Stark chews up scenery like Fish Mooney, Spider-Man babbles like Nigma. Thor? If that's acting but I think Cat Girl is less wooden.




> Hopefully David can fool us and have a nice growth spurt, because it would be sad if someone as talented as he is might be replaced for a larger kid.


Michael Keaton is 5' 10" so far the shortest of the Batmen but people still like him. They could one day have a more armored look, with some weaponry I think David will be fine when the time comes.

----------


## Powerboy

> That's the funniest description of Batman ever! I actually laughed out loud. 
> 
> I like the throwback style "Gotham" does including the actors, I suppose if one wants serious they can watch something like "Arrow" since I don't know much from Marvel that offers it 
> Tony Stark chews up scenery like Fish Mooney, Spider-Man babbles like Nigma. Thor? If that's acting but I think Cat Girl is less wooden.
> 
> 
> Michael Keaton is 5' 10" so far the shortest of the Batmen but people still like him. They could one day have a more armored look, with some weaponry I think David will be fine when the time comes.


Even if he ends up being 5'8", they can work with it.  Back in the day, Robert Conrad, who is probably 5'6" or something regardless of publicity claims, pulled off playing a leading man James Bond style of character over and over.  That could even be a great part of the disguise.  Nobody suspects Bruce Wayne of being Batman because Bruce Wayne is 5'8" while Batman is at least 6 feet tall (in the bat suit/ armor).  I remember one version of Batman's origin in the comics where he was still a teenager and overpowered the school bully and beat him senseless and the bully was whining, "But, but, you can't be stronger than me.  I'm bigger than you."

----------


## heyevaxx

Mild spoilers about the January 5th episode 11 from http://www.sneakpeek.ca/2014/12/goth...id-season.html
*spoilers:*
Take another look @ footage from the Mid-Season premiere of the Fox produced "Batman" prequel TV series "Gotham" airing January 5, 2015, as 'Detective Gordon' reports to duty @ 'Arkham Asylum':
"...Gordons assignment at 'Arkham Asylum' gets off to a rocky start when the murder of a guard ignites an investigation, leading him to meet 'Dr. Leslie Thompkins' (Morena Baccarin). 
"Meanwhile, crippled killer 'Cobblepot' continues to build his army..."
Guest cast also includes Drew Powell as 'Butch Gilzean', David Zayas as 'Maroni', Allyce Beasley as 'Dorothy Duncan', Isiah Whitlock Jr. as 'Gerry Lang', Kyle Massey as 'Mackey', Christopher Heyerdahl as 'Jack Gruber', Kevin McCormick as 'Aaron Helzinger' and Anthony Grasso as 'Ganza'.
Click the images to enlarge and Sneak Peek "Gotham: Rogue's Gallery"...
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Nick Miller

I need to see David's parents to guess his future height.

Get on that, heyevaxx,  :Cool:

----------


## EdwardNigma

I hate these winter breaks.

----------


## heyevaxx

Yet more mild spoilers about the January 5th episode 11...

I'm very excited about seeing *spoilers:*
Cat and Ivy teaming up and not just having Ivy in a brief cameo. Based on their last appearance, I think Selina will try to protect/guide Ivy who's basically a broken kid and bent on revenge on her dad's killer.
*end of spoilers* Come on January 5th!  :Smile: 

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=112596
*spoilers:*
DET. GORDON REPORTS TO DUTY AT ARKHAM ON AN ALL-NEW “GOTHAM” MONDAY, JANUARY 5, ON FOX
Det. Gordon’s assignment at Arkham Asylum gets off to a rocky start when the murder of a guard ignites an investigation, leading him to meet Dr. Leslie Thompkins (guest star Morena Baccarin, “Homeland”). Meanwhile, Cobblepot continues to build his army in the all-new “Rogues’ Gallery” episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, Jan. 5 (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-111) (TV-14 L, S, V)
Cast: Ben McKenzie as Detective James Gordon, Donal Logue as Harvey Bullock, Jada Pinkett Smith as Fish Mooney, Sean Pertwee as Alfred, Robin Lord Taylor as Oswald Cobblepot/The Penguin, Erin Richards as Barbara Kean, David Mazouz as Bruce Wayne, Camren Bicondova as Selina Kyle/the future Catwoman, Zabryna Guevara as Captain Sarah Essen, Cory Michael Smith as Edward Nygma/the future Riddler, Victoria Cartagena as Renee Montoya, Andrew Stewart Jones as Crispus Allen, John Doman as Carmine Falcone
Guest Cast: Morena Baccarin as Dr. Leslie Thompkins, Drew Powell as Butch Gilzean, David Zayas as Maroni, Allyce Beasley as Dorothy Duncan, Isiah Whitlock Jr. as Gerry Lang, Kyle Massey as Mackey, Christopher Heyerdahl as Jack Gruber, Kevin McCormick as Aaron Helzinger, Anthony Grasso as Ganza.
*end of spoilers*
http://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/gotha...emiere-images/
*spoilers:*
Visit Arkham Asylum In New Images From Gotham Mid-Season Premiere
If you thought Gotham had already taken a nose dive right into the deep end of Batman’s future rogues gallery, you’ve got another thing coming. The show may be on winter hiatus right now, but will hit the ground running when it returns in early January and opens the creaky gates of Arkham Asylum.
Jim Gordon was transferred to Arkham in the mid-season finale, and is sure to meet up with a host of familiar inmates. Today, Fox released a handful images from the mid-season premiere, “Rogues’ Gallery,” as well as a description of the episode, and they both promise exciting things to come.
Gotham will return on January 5th on FOX. Check out the screens and description below and let us know if you’ll be tuning in.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## brucekent12

Sounds good. Really enjoying this show!

----------


## Abishai100

Next season of "Gotham" (Fox TV) seems to promise a lot of stories about Arkham Asylum, which should be interesting.

While I am interested in the development of Ivy Pepper (the future Poison Ivy), since eco-terrorism is today's eerie topic, I would like to see more dastardly fun with the development of Edward Nygma (the future Riddler), since, of course, the Riddler represents Gotham City's struggle with 'incarceration elocution.'


 :EEK!: 


riddler.jpg

----------


## JasonTodd428

I'm looking forward to getting back to this on Jan. 5. Those spoilers look great.

----------


## ispacehead

I'm enjoying the break as I really like having things of this caliber to look forward to, but I'm getting a little antsy.

----------


## Abishai100

I'm satisfied with at least one aspect of "Gotham" (Fox TV) --- its succinct treatment of modern paranoia (i.e., urban crime).

We've been introduced to the future Riddler, the future Penguin, the future Poison Ivy, and the future Catwoman; and they all seem impressive.

I also like the camera work behind "Gotham" (Fox TV).  After all, shouldn't paranoia-themed entertainment present handsome images of 'memorable traffic?'


 :EEK!:

----------


## Abishai100

I want to see something like this on "Gotham" (Fox TV) in the near future:

Jervis Tetch, the future Mad Hatter, begins a program to subvert the bureaucratic efficiency in Arkham Asylum.  Penguin continues his personal crusade to create a personal gangster dominion designed to subvert Gotham police procedures.  Dr. Victor Fries, the future Mr. Freeze, is studying a way to cryogenically preserve human cells, but there are signs that his wife is in danger and this is making the good doctor cynical about Arkham Asylum.  Ivy Pepper (the future Poison Ivy) meets a teenage boy on the Gotham streets who seems to be fascinated by 'organized vandalism,' and it seems this boy is the future Black Mask.


Such plot developments should nicely complement the show's seeming investment next season in the urban paranoia aspects of Arkham Asylum.





 :EEK!: 

Arkham Asylum



hq.jpg

----------


## brucekent12

I woud think/hope that Gordon will be back on the beat before the end of this season, le alone next year.

----------


## heyevaxx

Camren Bicondova teasing the show's return:

----------


## heyevaxx

More mild spoilage for episode 11 "Rogues' Gallery" coming on January 5th:
*spoilers:*
http://www.tvguide.com/News/Mega-Buzz-Gotham-OUAT-Elementary-1090979.aspx
Even though Gordon will be working a new gig at Arkham Asylum, it won't take him long to make a new friend: Dr. Leslie Thompkins (guest star Morena Baccarin), who, despite being a bit different from her comic book counterpart, is one of the good guys. "She doesn't fall into the corrupt Gotham world," Baccarin says. "She wants to make it a better place." Because she shares that mentality with Gordon, they become a natural pair. "They have this immediate connection... based on just how insane everything is around them," she says. "It's the beginning of a really great, great friendship." But now that Gordon's fiancée skipped town, could that "friendship" become more? "There's definitely chemistry  so I'm not going to say no!" Baccarin teases.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Beantownbrown

GOTHAM Video Recaps Ten Episodes In Just Five Minutes

----------


## heyevaxx

http://www.eonline.com/news/609249/t...ble-thing-ever

*The Gotham Cast Reveals Their Secret Santa Picks and It's the Most Adorable Thing Ever*

Merry Christmas Eve, y'all!

While the city of Gotham might be as dangerous and corrupt as ever, that doesn't mean the cast of the hit Fox drama can't enjoy the holidays!

In fact, the cast even participated in a Secret Santa exchange, and they exclusively revealed to E! Online what they all got each other. But here's where it gets super adorable: They didn't get gifts for their cast members...they each picked a character on the show to get a gift for this holiday season!

And based on what they all decided to get for the characters they picked, it's pretty clear that everyone in Gotham needs a little break this holiday season. The crime rate is as high as ever, the GCPD just lost their top detective as Jim Gordon (Ben McKenzie) has been transferred to Arkham, and unhinged villain Oswald Cobblepot (Robin Lord Taylor) keeps on climbing that crime ladder, so it's no surprise that most gifts include booze or fluffy things like cats and teddy bears.

The cast really got into the holiday spirit and were super creative and thoughtful with their gifts, so check out their Secret Santa picks below!

*Ben McKenzie's Gift for Fish Mooney:*
"It's hard to know what to give a girl who has everything, but Fish definitely needs to unwind at the end of a long day. I would buy her a bottle of tequila and a large Teddy beartequila to relax, the Teddy because somebody needs a hug."

*Jada Pinkett Smith's Gift for Oswald Cobblepot/The Penguin:*
"I would get him a session with an Orthopedist and get his leg reset..."

*Robin Lord Taylor's Gift for Detective Harvey Bullock:*
"I'm getting Detective Harvey Bullock a kitten. I think it would soften him up a little bit. He could call it Oswald and feed it lots of tuna fish."

*David Mazouz's Gift for Crispus Allen:*
"A new name that doesn't sound like 'Christmas Salad.' Must be tough with a name like that around the GCPD!!"

*Cory Michael Smith's Gift for Renee Montoya:*
"I'd get our beloved Renee Montoya a Freezer... 'cause girl needs to CHILL OUT and back away slowly from the Barbara Kean situation."

*Camren Bicondova's gift for Detective James Gordon:*
"I would give Jim Gordon a gift card to Gotham Groceries. I would also set up a blind date because I think he needs some love in his life."

*Andrew Stewart Jones' Gift for Carmine Falcone:*
"I would give Carmine Falcone a cat. To put amongst his pigeons. Seems to me he would smile while hating it!"

*Zabryna Guevara's Gift for Alfred Pennyworth:*
"What better gift for good old Al than a BUTLER! Between cleaning that ENTIRE mansion alone, single parenting and fending off intruders I think he could do with a little help from a friend who knows what it's all about. His future self, Alfred, who can anticipate any need before it's made. Now the servant has become the master...Happy Christmas, mate."

*John Doman's Gift for Captain Sarah Essen:*
"I would get her a life sized teddy bear so she would have someone to cuddle with."     

*Erin Richards' Gift for Bruce Wayne:*
"I would gift Bruce Wayne an invisible cape, so he could practice being Batman without anyone knowing!"

*Victoria Cartagena's Gift for Selina Kyle/the Future Catwoman:*
"I would give the future Cat Woman the 'Selina Kyle Care Kit.' The kit would include everything a girl 'on the go' needs: a first-aid kit for those minor cuts and scrapes that inevitably come from all those climbing, jumping and kick-butting shenanigans; a couple of milk chocolate candy bars, because a girl who is always on the run is bound to crave a snack every once in a while; and, of course, a spare set of goggles. I'd also slip in a self-help book for wayward kids because, while unquestionably resourceful and fiercely independent, Selina still needs some guidance in her life. Finally, I would include a prepaid cellphone with three numbers in it: Montoya and Allen's, just in case of an emergency, and Camren Bicondova's, because she is sweet, funny, kind-hearted and would make an awesome friend (maybe she can even teach Selina some awesome dance moves :-))"

(Note: Donal Logue and Sean Pertwee couldn't participate in the Secret Santa exchange because they had already left for the holidays and were unreachable. They had chosen "Edward Nygma/The Future Riddler" and "Barbara Kean.")

----------


## Thirteen

Any idea of the Erin Richard's Barbara Kean character has been written out in favor of the Dr Thompkins played by Morena Baccarin?
Catching up on episodes now and Kean's exit seems sudden, considering how much they referred to her past with Renee Montoya,  as if tptb decided she wasn't working.  
In my wildest dreams she's spending her time offscreen becoming some sort of Proto-Batwoman type of toughened up character.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Keep watching the show 
she's sticking around

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Any idea of the Erin Richard's Barbara Kean character has been written out in favor of the Dr Thompkins played by Morena Baccarin?
> Catching up on episodes now and Kean's exit seems sudden, considering how much they referred to her past with Renee Montoya,  as if tptb decided she wasn't working.  
> In my wildest dreams she's spending her time offscreen becoming some sort of Proto-Batwoman type of toughened up character.


So you're assuming this universe will never have a Barbara Gordon? If not, who would be her mother then? IOW, I think Barbara Kean will be on the show until at least Babs is born.

----------


## godisawesome

Babs was his niece originally, then his adopted daughter, then his possibly illegitimate daughter, then his legal daughter. Babs isn't Barbara Kean's safety net. James Jr. is, and neither is really that secure if the creators decide to play around with the Gordon family.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Babs was his niece originally, then his adopted daughter, then his possibly illegitimate daughter, then his legal daughter. Babs isn't Barbara Kean's safety net. James Jr. is, and neither is really that secure if the creators decide to play around with the Gordon family.


For most of her history (including at her creation), Barbara Gordon has been the biological daughter of James and Barbara Kean Gordon. Even more importantly, she has been that way throughout her live-action history.

----------


## godisawesome

Yes. But the show is willing to bend the rules and ways of portraying classic characters without precedent (Penguin's new origin/the Sionis family's history/Barbara Kean's portrayal herself.) If the only real endgame they have for her is "gets pregnant, delivers Babs," then yeah she's safe, but also kind of tenuously tied to any part of the series purpose.

I figure she is safe, but I'd say she's less safe than Bullock; her writing is clearly slaved more to demographics writing than any kind of mythology framework. The fact that they had her cheat on him first already discards one of her main plot points in favor of adding drama/angst/man-pain to the story. She is somewhat less strong than Gordn right now; I'm curious to see if they'll rebuild her only to have James Jr. end up crushing her a bit.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Yes. But the show is willing to bend the rules and ways of portraying classic characters without precedent (Penguin's new origin/the Sionis family's history/Barbara Kean's portrayal herself.) If the only real endgame they have for her is "gets pregnant, delivers Babs," then yeah she's safe, but also kind of tenuously tied to any part of the series purpose.
> 
> I figure she is safe, but I'd say she's less safe than Bullock; her writing is clearly slaved more to demographics writing than any kind of mythology framework. The fact that they had her cheat on him first already discards one of her main plot points in favor of adding drama/angst/man-pain to the story. She is somewhat less strong than Gordn right now; I'm curious to see if they'll rebuild her only to have James Jr. end up crushing her a bit.


Is it possible she could be dropped from the show? I guess, but I still seriously doubt it. I would be shocked if that were the case, at any rate

----------


## brucekent12

I'm thinking that things will heat up  quickly between Jim and Leslie, then Barbara will return with those three little words. "honey I'm pregnant!'.

----------


## General Nerditry

It seems like the show creators are going out of their way to make Barbara as unlikable and useless a character as possible.  What on Earth does Jim see in her as written?  That's the weakest part of the show for me, but I am enjoying it quite a lot overall.

----------


## EdwardNigma

A little over a week before it begins again. Grrr can't wait.

----------


## brucekent12

New episodes in a week. The previews look great. YAY!

----------


## heyevaxx

I can't wait!  :Smile:

----------


## Abishai100

If we look at the Gotham villain Ra's al Ghul, who is as of yet not introduced in "Gotham" (Fox TV) but is in fact being presented on "Arrow" (The CW), we find a character in the universe of Batman (DC Comics) who embodies societal anxieties about fascism and terrorism that can oddly enough arise from criminal insanity (i.e., subtle allusions to Nazi Germany).

After all, Gotham City is a pop art symbol of modern age sin anxieties associated with urbanization paranoia (i.e., corruption, vagrancy, prostitution, drug abuse, mob rule, etc.).  So why not create Batman characters who exemplify human history angst towards social coordination (i.e., Nazism)?

I'm hoping a nifty known actor such as David Duchovny will show up on "Gotham" (Fox TV) portraying the nefarious Ra's al Ghul.

The world of Spider-Man (Marvel Comics) features city super-villains such as Black Cat, Green Goblin, and Venom who represent modern age anxieties about spiritualism failures (i.e., moral apathy, sin magnification, mayhem fixation).  These Marvel villains can be likened to symbolic Biblical 'villains' such as the AntiChrist (perhaps Venom), the dreaded manslayer described in the Book of Daniel (perhaps the Green Goblin), and the mysterious and slinky harlot of Babylon (perhaps Black Cat).


Likewise, we can use the artistic inspiration drawn from Ra's al Ghul, a maniacal fascist and pseudo-ecoterrorist, to create Biblical portraits of urban mayhem for Gotham City and yes for "Gotham" (Fox TV).  Why not draw connections between Ra's al Ghul (or the Riddler) and Satan?

I'm excited to see what themes will be presented in the next season on "Gotham" (Fox TV) about Arkham Asylum --- perhaps female frailties (i.e., Ivy Pepper or Harleen Quinzel)?





 :EEK!: 

Ra's al Ghul (DC Comics Wikia)

----------


## heyevaxx

Outstanding fanedit covering the first 1/2 season of Gotham. Fox/NBC Universal/Warner/DC Comics should hire this person!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBK1oKqSgyI

----------


## brucekent12

Nicely done sir, nicely done!

----------


## Abishai100

I remember that funny scene from the wonderful Star Wars spoof "Spaceballs" (Mel Brooks) in which all the inhabitants of an ecologically mismanaged territory have to resort to breathing purchased boxes of oxygen (since the regular atmospheric air is so polluted).

Today, we have water bottling companies such as Poland Spring distributing millions of bottles of purified spring water bottles to consumers in supermarkets (since natural tap water quality has diminished in U.S. states such as New Jersey due to pollution).  Hence, fiction is not far from the truth.

I'd like to see the introduction of Scarecrow next season on "Gotham" (Fox TV), since previews seem to indicate a focused attention on Arkham Asylum and terror related to criminal insanity.

Perhaps Scarecrow will ruffle Jim Gordon's feathers.  Dr. Crane (the future Scarecrow), a budding psychologist, is pondering how to create social frenzy (and morbid vigilantism) by contaminating Gotham City's water reservoir with dangerous amounts of a potent hallucinogen in a pseudo-political gesture meant to draw attention to 'civics sarcasm.'



 :EEK!:

----------


## Abishai100

I'm the heir to a rather priestly Brahmin Hindu family in India which includes members such as the first mayor of New Delhi and a prominent Nobel Laureate.

I was thinking the other day that if an apocalyptic asteroid reached Earth before the year 2025, and "Gotham" (Fox TV) was still on the air, then I would want people to remember that Robin Lord Taylor's performance of the eeie Oswald Cobblepot (the future crime-maniac named Penguin) on the unusual show was certainly worthy of spiritual archaeology by my family's descendants.



 :EEK!:

----------


## Punisher007

> It seems like the show creators are going out of their way to make Barbara as unlikable and useless a character as possible.  What on Earth does Jim see in her as written?  That's the weakest part of the show for me, but I am enjoying it quite a lot overall.


Every time I see Barbara on this show, I feel just a little bit better about Laurel on _Arrow._  At least Laurel has her moments (and I didn't mind her in season 1).  Barbara has NEVER worked on this show, not once.  That scene was the worst cliffhanger that I've ever seen, or at least the worst in recent memory.

Oh and can we PLEASE stop throwing Renee Montoya under the bus just because the writers want to give Barbara something to do?  Montoya is awesome, and this show REALLY isn't doing her justice.

----------


## brucekent12

I like the Montoya character as well, not to the degree Punisher007 does, but she isn't as bad as other have made her out to be. Maybe the writers should have pushed her being a good cop more, instead of pushing the gay angle right away. I also don't think producers had planned on making Montoya and Allen regulars in the beginning.

----------


## eternaldream24

Am I the only one who hates fish and hope she gets killed off soon. I feel like the only reason shes there is to make the show more sexual

----------


## Nite-Wing

Fish is just pure camp without her in the show people would think this was some super serious police procedural

----------


## Zorkel567

> I like the Montoya character as well, not to the degree Punisher007 does, but she isn't as bad as other have made her out to be. Maybe the writers should have pushed her being a good cop more, instead of pushing the gay angle right away. I also don't think producers had planned on making Montoya and Allen regulars in the beginning.


Yeah, I definitely feel like making Montoya and Allen series regulars was a last minute decision. They seem to appear so little, and never contribute a lot to the plotline. I'm hoping their roles can be expanded come the second half, and they get further scenes. I'd also like Montoya to branch out from just being Barbara's ex, and get more scenes of her doing her job. 




> Am I the only one who hates fish and hope she gets killed off soon. I feel like the only reason shes there is to make the show more sexual


I love Fish, not even kidding. She is campy, but she's fun, and adds an interesting dynamic.

----------


## Sleeves

> Am I the only one who hates fish and hope she gets killed off soon. I feel like the only reason shes there is to make the show more sexual


Nope, just about everyone I talk to about this show agree's she's just about the worst thing in it. Im still not totally sure I like Gotham, It had a bit of a shakey start IMO, but it does appear to be getting better as things progress.

----------


## Red_11

> I love Fish, not even kidding. She is campy, but she's fun, and adds an interesting dynamic.


Me too.  She's one of my favorite character's on the show.  She's such a deliciously over the top villain.

I like Montoya too, and agree she's been misused, or at least ill used by the writers so far.

----------


## brucekent12

I can't wait for the show to come on again tomorrow. Maybe the show lost its footing a bit after the pilot, but it  has gotten better. I think it will improve more with Morena Baccarin. Good classy actress.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I'd love it if they had allen comment on how dirty montoya is playing with her whole pursuit of barbara. So far all he's been on the show is the smirking black man

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

I think not enough attention is payed to how awful Penguin's mother is. 
You think Fish Mooney is bad? - Well, she is, but still... Penguin's mother is unbearably bad. Borderline offensive, and almost completely pointless.

----------


## Mr. Dent

I've enjoyed the show so far, there are some annoying cast members and some things that don't seem right based on the comics but it's still entertaining, original and nice to have a Batman based show on TV that isn't just animated. 

Also not tomorrows episode, but the one after seems to have Detective Flass as a guest star. Could be interesting if true. 




> Guest Cast: Morena Baccarin as Dr. Leslie Thompkins, Drew Powell as Butch Gilzean, David Zayas as Maroni, Christopher Heyerdahl as Jack Gruber, Anthony Carrigan as Victor Zsasz, Kevin McCormick as Danzig, *Dash Mihok as Detective Arnold Flass*, Peter Scolari as Commissioner Loeb, Adrian Martinez as Irwin, Caroline Lagerfelt as Mrs. Kean, Richard Poe as Mr. Kean, Victor Cruz as Desk Sergeant
> 
> Source

----------


## eternaldream24

I'm a fan of Montoya in the comics but on the show not so much. Maybe if they developed her character more I would be. My favorite tho has to be penguin. I was never a huge fan of the penguin before but I think the show has done a superb job with him.

----------


## Triple J

> I've enjoyed the show so far, there are some annoying cast members and some things that don't seem right based on the comics but it's still entertaining, original and nice to have a Batman based show on TV that isn't just animated. 
> 
> Also not tomorrows episode, but the one after seems to have Detective Flass as a guest star. Could be interesting if true.


It did annoy me at first..but then I realized something...this is an Elseworld. All of the DC tv shows are. Similar the characters in comics, but different in a lot of ways (DC cinematic universe being the main continuity in other media).

Which of course means that they can change a lot of things. Make Penguin a lot older than Bruce etc.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I also don't think producers had planned on making Montoya and Allen regulars in the beginning.


I get the feeling they're meant to be reoccurring characters but not quite regular. It's hard to fit them in too much right now. A lot of shows develop over seasons a larger cast so I think as they get going they'll fit into the mix better.




> Fish is just pure camp without her in the show people would think this was some super serious police procedural


And she's a great foil to Penguin.




> I can't wait for the show to come on again tomorrow. Maybe the show lost its footing a bit after the pilot, but it  has gotten better. I think it will improve more with Morena Baccarin. Good classy actress.


I actually thought the pilot was shaky and the show has found it's footing after that. 




> I think not enough attention is payed to how awful Penguin's mother is. 
> You think Fish Mooney is bad? - Well, she is, but still... Penguin's mother is unbearably bad. Borderline offensive, and almost completely pointless.


Hey look, someone on the internet is offended by something.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Reading through more of the thread...



> For most of her history (including at her creation), Barbara Gordon has been the biological daughter of James and Barbara Kean Gordon. Even more importantly, she has been that way throughout her live-action history.


That's not entirely true. Yes she was created as the daughter of James Gordon but for a long time her mother wasn't named. 
In fact the name Barbara was first used in an alternate reality and then used again and then it stuck (except for occasions when she was Barbara Eileen-Gordon).
http://www.comicvine.com/barbara-kea...on/4005-70561/

In live action on the 66 series she's the daughter of James Gordon (I don't think they name a mother) but in the Batman and Robin movie Alicia Silverstone plays Barbara Pennyworth the niece of Alfred.

So I could see Barbara Keen being a red herring and not Batgirl's mom. Maybe he ends up naming his daughter after her.

----------


## Nick Miller

Count me in as anti-Fish.

They havent done anything remotely interesting since the pilot. I cringe at her scenes with her "dancer friend/mole"

----------


## devil leonx

> Nope, just about everyone I talk to about this show agree's she's just about the worst thing in it. Im still not totally sure I like Gotham, It had a bit of a shakey start IMO, but it does appear to be getting better as things progress.


I think its a love or hate thing with Fish...honestly I like her and it makes the show feel more well comic bookey lol in a good way in my opinion anyway.




> I can't wait for the show to come on again tomorrow. Maybe the show lost its footing a bit after the pilot, but it  has gotten better. I think it will improve more with Morena Baccarin. Good classy actress.


I am looking forward to Morena joining as well, I hope to see the relationship between her and bruce as she becomes his mother figure.




> I like the Montoya character as well, not to the degree Punisher007 does, but she isn't as bad as other have made her out to be. Maybe the writers should have pushed her being a good cop more, instead of pushing the gay angle right away. I also don't think producers had planned on making Montoya and Allen regulars in the beginning.


I tihnk Montoya is alright I agree with you on that, the gay angle gets pushed in our faces a bit too much, how about we see other aspect of her life?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

next episode is in two weeks....what?! is something happening next monday?

----------


## tabo61

Good episode tonight.  I like the storyline of Jim working as a guard at Arkham. I think he and Leslie Thompkins will be in the sack by the end of this season.

----------


## Nite-Wing

come back for one episode and then return for a regular run in two week only to go on hiatus again in march. Man this show is just trying to lose all its fanbase

Anyway nice episode but its only saved by the end where they reveal its the electrocutioner and Gotham gets its first supervillain
Renee and Barbara are just a plague on this show but its grimly entertaining to see their scenes together. I loved Ivy trolling her but how low do you have to be to get pissed at your boyfriend when you are already cheating on him.
Dr leslie was nice enough
Its odd not having lil bruce in an episode
I swear Fish's plot is just terrible how is she not dead I'll never know

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 11 "Rogues' Gallery"  Nice to see Isiah Whitlock from The Wire and Christopher Heyerdahl from Hell on Wheels show up.  I've been looking forward to Leslie Thompkins appearing and I think Morena Baccarin is a good addition to the show.

----------


## heyevaxx

Gotham is back!

It was a nice (though too short) bit with 2/3s of the GCS. Ivy's answering the phone and pranking Barbara was both hilarious and tragic. Poor Barbara: she felt pushed away by Jim, she gets kidnapped after trying to help, she flees to an old flame who then dumps her since she went right back to druggin'. Then Ivy acts like Jim's new girl! Doh.

I'm glad that Renee quickly came to her senses and saw what a bad idea hooking back up with Barbara was. She was bouncing off of Jim and jumped right back into drugs. Good on Renee for quickly cutting it off.

The Wire's Senator Clay Davis is in the house! He was great though I did a Darth Vader style Nooooooooooo! at the end of the episode. Well, Clay was awesome as the Arkham director. May he "sheeeeeeeeeeeit" in peace.

Oswald was excellent as always. I liked that he overstepped his bounds and was taken down a notch; he's not a crime lord yet. Maroni had some great lines and carried himself like a boss. But that look Penguin gave him after the cheek patting and (I assume) Maroni turned away. Serious dagger eyes!

Jack Gruber was creepy with a smooth, commanding voice. He sure felt like an evil shrink. I guess we'll find out later how his name morphs into the more familiar form we all know.

Finally, the bit with Butch and Saviano was really strong. I went from not knowing about their relationship to believing they were super tight, old friends. And in the final scene in the car, I really didn't know which way Butch would go. Great acting and the directing that had a strong Scorsese feel which is a good thing.

Great episode and a great kickoff to the second half.

----------


## Vakanai

So, was that bad guy Gruber/electric guy from the comics?

----------


## ABH

Really good episode. Putting Gordon in Arkham was a pretty brilliant move.




> come back for one episode and then return for a regular run in two week only to go on hiatus again in march. Man this show is just trying to lose all its fanbase


Yeah, they should have planned that a little better.

----------


## ispacehead

> come back for one episode and then return for a regular run in two week only to go on hiatus again in march. Man this show is just trying to lose all its fanbase


Pretty standard stuff for network tv.

Gotta line up their A game for sweeps.

It's nice to have the show back. This episode was pretty much faultless in my book. 

This Electrocutioner got a nice intro, but how bout his sidekick Aaron? (... Helzinger ...anyone....? I've always wanted an origin for Amygdala.  :Smile:  ) 

Pretty damn cool.

Morena Baccarin makes a fine addition to the cast. I thought we needed another strong female character, other than Fish.




> So, was that bad guy Gruber/electric guy from the comics?


Electrocutioner is a villain from the comics, but his name was not Gruber.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> So, was that bad guy Gruber/electric guy from the comics?


The round glasses and other features reminded my of Hugo Strange. I wonder if this is Gotham's origin for him. Seems too intelligent to be Elctrocutioner. He was using electricity but as part of his supposed treatments for the inmates.

Butch is becoming very interesting. I had though him just to be Fish's thug but he may be a schemer himself. Everyone wan't Falcone out and to be top dog. He swears to Fish he's loyal but I don't buy it.

And Penguin got smacked down a bit, I sure don't think he cared for that lesson. 

Scheduling does scare me, it's what I thought was to blame for AOS ratings falling even as that show shaped up over the season but it can't be helped on Fox. At least ratings were up 9% over the last episode
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...s-down/346154/

2.5 share in the demo is pretty good. Up against CBS comedies, Celebrity Apprentice night 2, The Bachelor's premiere and still solid.

----------


## devil leonx

> Pretty standard stuff for network tv.
> 
> Gotta line up their A game for sweeps.
> 
> It's nice to have the show back. This episode was pretty much faultless in my book. 
> 
> This Electrocutioner got a nice intro, but how bout his sidekick Aaron? (Helzinger anyone....? I've always wanted an origin for Amygdala.  ) 
> 
> Pretty damn cool.
> ...


I do not want to be negative but the episode was far from perfect...what kind of Asylum lets a patient give medication to other inmates....and shes allow to dress as a nurse as well. it lacks total common sense!!!!.... The scenes between Jim and Leslie were good and I felt they had good chemistry  so that is fine and seeing bullock come back reminded me how important he is to the show cause he adds the humor to the series. Also the interrogation scene....maybe on paper it was a good idea but was executed quite badly. Also the thing with Ivy I like the idea there as well but the lines delivering was....less than par. The crime drama was alright I guess.

----------


## Agent Z

Wow, Barbara must have been really off the deep end if she thought that kid on the phone was supposed to be "friend" of Jim's. And how the hell did Jim not know the patient wasn't really a staff member. No one bothered to tell him? He never saw her doing something that proved she wasn't a staff member.

----------


## ispacehead

> I do not want to be negative but the episode was far from perfect...


I think critique is healthy.

The Arkham nurse reveal was a bit weird, I'll admit. I think what we're supposed to get out of it is what a mess Arkham is. Insufficient budget... poorly managed with an ill prepared staff. 

Not a place of recovery, but simply confinement.

I enjoyed Ivy's performance this episode. 

The interrogation scene was fast and loose, but it's Gotham, right?  :Wink: 




> Wow, Barbara must have been really off the deep end if she thought that kid on the phone was supposed to be "friend" of Jim's.


A girl's voice on the phone is a girl's voice. Lots of women have girly sounding voices. Ask Kimmy Robertson. Or Arleen Sorkin. 

Barbara didn't bother me this episode. Not my favorite performance on the show, I'll admit.

----------


## Randumbz

The preview at the end of the episode made me think that Jim will be getting his GCPD job back soon. He was talking to someone in the police office and said that they need him if they want to find the electrocutioner.

----------


## brucekent12

That  was his captain, Sarah essen. Good episode, loved the scenes with Jim and Leslie Thomkins. Morena Baccarin is a great a addition to the cast.

----------


## devil leonx

> That  was his captain, Sarah essen. Good episode, loved the scenes with Jim and Leslie Thomkins. Morena Baccarin is a great a addition to the cast.


I will  agree about Jim and Leslie completly

----------


## devil leonx

> I think critique is healthy.
> 
> The Arkham nurse reveal was a bit weird, I'll admit. I think what we're supposed to get out of it is what a mess Arkham is. Insufficient budget... poorly managed with an ill prepared staff. 
> 
> Not a place of recovery, but simply confinement.
> 
> I enjoyed Ivy's performance this episode. 
> 
> The interrogation scene was fast and loose, but it's Gotham, right? 
> ...


Gotham does have a odd charm but to me it felt kind of messing for most of the episode...and also I was surprised to see i miss seeing Bruce already... I know its just a ep it did come up in my mind though I think it was best he was not in it too much was happening .

----------


## PretenderNX01

> .what kind of Asylum lets a patient give medication to other inmates....and shes allow to dress as a nurse as well.


While I think they could have handled that reveal a bit better, they wanted to show case it being understaffed and inmates who seem to be on the road to rehabilitation can get more responsibilities. It's not bright by our standards but that must be what Bruno Heller was talking about when he said he wanted to show how a places like Arkham (where everyone escapes from) comes about.
_The revolving door of Arkham is both a brilliant narrative device because it allows you to -- you don't have to kill people off, you can just put them in cold storage -- but if you're telling the story from the start you kind of have to explain, 'What the f***? Why don't you make that place a place people don't escape from?'_ 
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/...-of-season-one




> Wow, Barbara must have been really off the deep end if she thought that kid on the phone was supposed to be "friend" of Jim's.


I thought Ivy affected a seductress voice alright (but Barbara is a bit of a mess too). 




> The interrogation scene was fast and loose, but it's Gotham, right?


I don't know what people want from that scene, it was just meant to be a showcase of the types that Arkham houses. I thought it accomplished that. It was like the montage of Bullock and Gordon roughing up people in an earlier episode. Just gives you an idea of what life is there.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I thought Ivy affected a seductress voice alright (but Barbara is a bit of a mess too)


I agree. She didn't sound like a little kid messing around with the phone.

----------


## Powerboy

I thought it was rather run of the mill for the lead-off after a hiatus.  For some reason, I focused on Fish Mooney's henchman and that killing.  I noted something trivial like the guy uses his own gun and isn't even wearing gloves.  But then, considering that mob bosses order cops to unlock cells and let people go, it's just a reminder that they don't need to be too cautious as the cops are owned in Gotham.  On the other hand, it should take the Mob bosses about ten minutes to use their police connections and find out who did the hit.

Lack of Bruce Wayne was a downside but Ivy is shaping up to already be a real sadist.

----------


## Powerboy

> I agree. She didn't sound like a little kid messing around with the phone.


No, that really did not sound like a child's voice when she was talking on the phone.

----------


## ispacehead

> I don't know what people want from that scene, it was just meant to be a showcase of the types that Arkham houses. I thought it accomplished that. It was like the montage of Bullock and Gordon roughing up people in an earlier episode. Just gives you an idea of what life is there.


And we got Amygdala to boot! 

I can't believe nobody is as excited about that as I am.

----------


## General Nerditry

Yeah, great episode.  Things really feel like they are firing on all cylinders, and it's great to see Arkham.  I thought the episode was really balanced, and while I missed Bruce, I agree he would have been out of place here.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Great to have this show back again. I was missing it. Sad that there was a lack of Bruce here but it would have made no sense for him to be in this episode anyway. I loved Ivy here and Penguin was great as always. Loved Leslie and Gordon as well. If I had one complaint it would be Barbara but that's pretty much been my only hang up with this show anyway so I won't bore people with it.

----------


## Abishai100

The first significant scenes involving Jim Gordon's monitoring of Arkham Asylum on "Gotham" (Fox TV) seem to cast a long shadow about the contours of criminal insanity in Gotham City that give rise to personality-morbid super-villains such as the ghoulish Harley Quinn.

So, will we see Dr. Harleen Quinzel make an appearance on the show soon?


 :EEK!:

----------


## Nick Miller

> next episode is in two weeks....what?! is something happening next monday?


they are airing a rerun "Spirit of the Goat"

my guess is they don't want to go up against the NCAA football championship game.


This episode was ok.

No Bruce and very little Baby Cat is pretty lame.

Someone kill all the gangsters fast. Start with Fish.

----------


## Toreador

> I do not want to be negative but the episode was far from perfect...what kind of Asylum lets a patient give medication to other inmates....and shes allow to dress as a nurse as well. it lacks total common sense!!!!.... The scenes between Jim and Leslie were good and I felt they had good chemistry  so that is fine and seeing bullock come back reminded me how important he is to the show cause he adds the humor to the series. Also the interrogation scene....maybe on paper it was a good idea but was executed quite badly. Also the thing with Ivy I like the idea there as well but the lines delivering was....less than par. The crime drama was alright I guess.


I thought the show said that she hid in the basement after the previous closure and after it re-opened she appeared in a nurse's outfit and everyone assumed she was part of the staff and no one bothered to verify it (when the inmate was hurt the director expected her to administer medical aide).

----------


## Lucette

I think that it is pretty safe to assume that Fish is going to be killed off eventually because Penguin definitely wants her gone.

I get the feeling Barbara left Jim just so that Cat had to go to Wayne Manor.

----------


## ispacehead

> I think that it is pretty safe to assume that Fish is going to be killed off eventually because Penguin definitely wants her gone.



While this was my initial belief, Fish has become a popular character. It would seem she is surely done for, but twisting the knife and making you wait for it = good television.

I'm hoping they twist that knife for a while.

Maroni has provoked Penguin's ire for the moment, though we can expect him to at least survive the repercussions I  imagine.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> So, will we see Dr. Harleen Quinzel make an appearance on the show soon?


Not this season. I think they said they had an idea for Harley at some point but I don't know how far along she'll be. They don't have to go by traditional ages but I usually think of her being younger than Joker and the same age as Ivy and Catwoman. But who knows?




> I think that it is pretty safe to assume that Fish is going to be killed off eventually because Penguin definitely wants her gone.


It might be after he offs Maroni though. Penguin was looking daggers at him after he got out of jail.  :Wink: 




> I thought the show said that she hid in the basement after the previous closure and after it re-opened she appeared in a nurse's outfit and everyone assumed she was part of the staff and no one bothered to verify it (when the inmate was hurt the director expected her to administer medical aide


Yeah there was some quick explanation but I wish they had done it a little bit more. Then she wasn't even the one electrocuting everyone. 




> Someone kill all the gangsters fast.


Hate to break it to you but the whole gang war was part of the selling point of the series.

----------


## ispacehead

> It might be after he offs Maroni though.


He can't kill Maroni though. What's the point in including the character if he doesn't have a future in court with Harvey Dent. (One we won't see onscreen in THIS particular show perhaps, but nonetheless...)

Penguin will punish Maroni I'm guessing. Just maybe not with death. More likely, he'll take everything that belongs to him, and make Maroni *his* monkey.




> So, will we see Dr. Harleen Quinzel make an appearance on the show soon?


About the same time that Heller announced the "prenatal Robin" we can expect some time this season, he also said no plans for Harley this season or at all thus far.

----------


## General Nerditry

Honestly, I don't particularly need or want them to cram in the entire A-list rogue's gallery into this show.  It's already pretty packed, and it would feel a little forced if every single villain interacted with every other before Batman even arrived.

----------


## MichaelC

Anyone going wtf??? after Montoya dumped Barbara? I...wuh...buh...huh???? You spent the whole season winning her back and then immediately dump her?????? That was such repulsively contrived writing. Might as well have had a sign saying, "this is happening because the plot says so!" in giant letters.

----------


## ispacehead

> Honestly, I don't particularly need or want them to cram in the entire A-list rogue's gallery into this show.  It's already pretty packed, and it would feel a little forced if every single villain interacted with every other before Batman even arrived.


I'm really enjoying the show, but I do hope they don't go too overboard with the villains. 

Not sure how crazy I'll be about it if every one of Batman's foes are 10-15 years older than he is.




> Anyone going wtf??? after Montoya dumped Barbara? I...wuh...buh...huh???? You spent the whole season winning her back and then immediately dump her??????


She was spending the day in bed, taking pills and drinking and is obviously unhappy.

I was more confused as to why Jim called out for Barbara when he returned from Arkham.

----------


## Abishai100

*Villainy Origin Story Cellar*


I'm wondering if "Gotham" (Fox TV) will inspire comic book writers from Marvel to come up with alternative creative super-villain origins stories:

"Electro, the mutant who tampers with the city's electrical grids and is a nemesis of the webbed wonder Spider-Man began his crime career as a fake telephone repair man who made house calls claiming that phone lines needed inspection and proceeded to kill the occupants of the home he was visiting.  It was only later that this maniac decided to expand his diabolical reach by toying with the city's electrical power grids."


 :EEK!:

----------


## devil leonx

> I thought the show said that she hid in the basement after the previous closure and after it re-opened she appeared in a nurse's outfit and everyone assumed she was part of the staff and no one bothered to verify it (when the inmate was hurt the director expected her to administer medical aide).



The ep does say that but i thought it mentioned  also that everyone there was part of his staff even her and she moved with the staff to Arkham....I just feel the whole idea that she was a patient  being quite dumb. Why not she make her a real nurse that had been dealing with some issues?? that be way more believable.

----------


## devil leonx

> I thought it was rather run of the mill for the lead-off after a hiatus.  For some reason, I focused on Fish Mooney's henchman and that killing.  I noted something trivial like the guy uses his own gun and isn't even wearing gloves.  But then, considering that mob bosses order cops to unlock cells and let people go, it's just a reminder that they don't need to be too cautious as the cops are owned in Gotham.  On the other hand, it should take the Mob bosses about ten minutes to use their police connections and find out who did the hit.
> 
> Lack of Bruce Wayne was a downside but Ivy is shaping up to already be a real sadist.


I have to agree, I think that might have been it also . I was looking quite forward to Gotham's return and instead we got more of a Meh epside....also I focused more on the henchmen thing to, it just  kind of seemed more interesting...even if you could see what would happen a mile away.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Anyone going wtf??? after Montoya dumped Barbara? I...wuh...buh...huh???? You spent the whole season winning her back and then immediately dump her??????





> She was spending the day in bed, taking pills and drinking and is obviously unhappy.


Yeah, it's a matter of being careful what you wish for. And Renee basically admitted it was part of her own issue wanting to go back to where they had been but it wasn't healthy for her or Barbara.




> I was more confused as to why Jim called out for Barbara when he returned from Arkham.


It's her house and there was food and bowls lying around so he wondered is she was back.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> She was spending the day in bed, taking pills and drinking and is obviously unhappy.


She spent all of S1 in her bedroom too. Montoya pointed that out too.

----------


## ispacehead

> It's her house and there was food and bowls lying around so he wondered is she was back.


Watch it again. His tone of voice doesn't sound like he's wondering, it sounds like he expects her to be there. 

Just weird.


> She spent all of S1 in her bedroom too. Montoya pointed that out too.


Most of her scenes were in her apartment, I'll give you that, but she wasn't popping pills and pretending to be asleep all day.

She seemed much healthier and was trying to participate in Jim's life. 

Now, she just seems miserable. She obviously didn't want to go back to Renee, but was so distraught over things with Jim, that she fell back into it.

Renee recognized that and didn't want to be a part of it.

----------


## ImprobableQuestion

At first I thought they were going to do a rogue a season, but I think they can sustain Penguin's arc for a good long while. The whole Penguin thing is about the slow death of old organized crime (orderly, inconspicuous) and the rise of new costumed crime (ostentatious, chaotic). 

I still hope we start to see Eddie's start of darkness next season though.

----------


## Abishai100

We must remember that Bob Kane envisioned Gotham City to be a comic book symbol of the prophetic 'cauldron city of crime.'

That is why we must allow Gotham storyboard writers to have free reign over what they 'allow in' to the world of anarchy that the Dark Knight occupies.  Writers must feel they have the liberty to think aloud about seemingly bizarre or even ridiculous conceptualizations of crime if they are to capture Bob Kane's vision of a city defined by the anarchy that arises with the hypothetical 'criminal insanity' gauged terrorism:

"Jim Gordon is up to his neck in paperwork and crime statistics and there is real anarchy in the streets.  He signals to Batman who shows up in his office for a private meeting.  The two discuss how Gotham is being over-run by a handful of real sickos --- Toyman (a maniac who devises toys implanted with explosives), Two-Face (a cunning merciless vigilante whose terrible deeds inspire impressionable youth to curse the regular police), Mysterio (a bizarre death-trap creator who disguises himself as a hot dog vendor but sells hot dogs laced with a lethal and untraceable neurotoxin), Harley Quinn (a psychiatrist-turned-maniac who creates general mayhem with random acts of violent vandalism), Poison Ivy (an eco-terrorist who sends death threats to Gotham's botany labs and chemical plants), and Black Mask (an AntiChrist who creates crime syndicates bent on focused hellraising).  Batman decides to raise the morale of Gotham City by setting up an elaborate aquarium through Wayne Industries which will fund the regular visits of school children and working people of Gotham."

If people do not feel comfortable coming up with outlandish stories and proposing human spiritualism solutions, then we'll miss the chance to portray Gotham City as an urbanization paranoia symbol of modern psychiatry art.


That's why the development of the Penguin is so important for "Gotham" (Fox TV), since the character capitulates all of these qualities of Bob Kane's vision --- which is why these laissez-faire comments about Robin Lord Taylor's Oswald Cobblepot possibly being the Joker are so foolish.



 :EEK!:

----------


## ispacehead

> At first I thought they were going to do a rogue a season, but I think they can sustain Penguin's arc for a good long while. The whole Penguin thing is about the slow death of old organized crime (orderly, inconspicuous) and the rise of new costumed crime (ostentatious, chaotic).


Exactly. And that can take as long as it needs to. It can go on for the duration of the show even, and probably will to some degree since Batman is not expected to appear.

----------


## brucekent12

I don't think  they need any more rogues, or new characters for the rest of this season, the cast is big enough already. Put a new rouge or two next season, eliminate a character or two,  and give the cast you have some exciting plots. I really like the show but please don't go overboard.

----------


## Nick Miller

> While this was my initial belief, Fish has become a popular character. It would seem she is surely done for, but twisting the knife and making you wait for it = good television.
> 
> I'm hoping they twist that knife for a while.
> 
> Maroni has provoked Penguin's ire for the moment, though we can expect him to at least survive the repercussions I  imagine.



yeah she is popular. 

I would be shocked if she isn't ported into the comics, or maybe we get a Gotham comic after Convergence

----------


## ispacehead

> yeah she is popular. 
> 
> I would be shocked if she isn't ported into the comics, or maybe we get a Gotham comic after Convergence


Seems like it would have to be a Gotham comic, though I don't know how interested I would be in such a thing.

I'm hoping she gets the death we all know Penguin wants to give her some time down the road in the show.

Not knowing her future onscreen, it would be hard to work her into anything other than a flashback or a dedicated series.

I wonder if she has any kids that might grow up to hate Penguin? Or maybe a sibling? Seems like a workable way to reference her in modern comic continuity.

----------


## Randumbz

> I'm really enjoying the show, but I do hope they don't go too overboard with the villains. 
> 
> Not sure how crazy I'll be about it if every one of Batman's foes are 10-15 years older than he is.
> 
> 
> 
> She was spending the day in bed, taking pills and drinking and is obviously unhappy.
> 
> I was more confused as to why Jim called out for Barbara when he returned from Arkham.


The door was unlocked and there was a bowl of good on the table. Of course he'd assume that she came back.

----------


## ispacehead

> The door was unlocked and there was a bowl of good on the table. Of course he'd assume that she came back.


Watch again. He says it too immediately on his way in to have spotted that stuff.  He's on the doorstep and hasn't even examined the room yet. He sees the bowls and stuff on his left as he steps down into the living room.

His tone of voice makes it sound as if he hasn't even realized she bailed.

Just a weird moment. 

I need to see the last episode again now so I can recall how she left him. Her apartment was depicted to be dusty as if not even Jim had been by since Barbara left.

Does he have his own place? Did he sleep at the asylum?

Edit: Did a little recapping. Seems like he must have been very optimistic about her return, and has just been working his butt off as always.

Somehow, when he calls for her at the end of this episode, it just sounds too expectant. Too certain. Like he assumed she was there, though we have no reason to think she would be.

Might just seem extra weird because of the duration between episodes. Seems like she's been gone longer to me than she has in show-time.

----------


## heyevaxx

Some behind the scenes photos via The TV Addict:

*BTS from Gotham: Season 1, Episode 11 Rogues' Gallery (5 Jan. 2015)*

----------


## EdwardNigma

So glad the show is back on.

----------


## Abishai100

As Jim Gordon prepares his personal notes about his work at Arkham Asylum, Bullock sends him a strange memo about a creepy-looking spook wandering around Gotham Library.  According to Bullock, the librarians report that a 30-something Caucasian male keeps checking out books on the American Civil War and cannibalism, two seemingly unrelated topics.  As Gordon investigates further, he realizes that during the Mexican-American War and the American Civil War, soldiers were in situations of extreme physical duress and had to endure cold weather, perhaps opening up eerie considerations of using the flesh from dead soldiers on the battlefield for food or their articles of clothing for warmth.  Gordon wonders if this strange 30-something Caucasian male wandering around Gotham Library and checking out books on the American Civil War and cannibalism may simply be studying such cases or is developing some odd obsession with a dark figment of America's history.

Should Gordon investigate further?

Such storylines have comprised the brunt of "Gotham" (Fox TV) so far.  The development of Oswald Cobblepot (Penguin), portrayed entertainingly by Robin Lord Taylor, as been engaging, and various crime world innuendos shed light onto Bob Kane's vision of a brooding Gotham City.  The set designs are ambitious but elegant, and the camera-work is playful but clever.

Americans develop odd curiosities, and "Gotham" (Fox TV) is a nice representation of this fact.  When I think about how American horror film-makers invent maniacal roadie maniacs such as Leatherface (a cannibalistic chainsaw-wielding vagrant killer) and Jason (a hockey-mask wearing stalker of vulnerable teenagers), I realize that Bob Kane's vision of an urbanization-paranoia Gotham City symbolic of mania sociology illuminates America's shrewd analysis of 'demon traffic.'

Would you be scared of someone in New York City who was prowling around the libraries taking out every book on the American Civil War he could get his greedy little hands on?






 :EEK!: 

Leatherface

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Watch again. He says it too immediately on his way in to have spotted that stuff.  He's on the doorstep and hasn't even examined the room yet. He sees the bowls and stuff on his left as he steps down into the living room.


You are 100% wrong. I still have the episode I downloaded.

At 40:46 he walks through the door
At 40:55 he sees the bowls
The camera cuts between him staring at them and a closeup of the bowls
At 41:02 calls out "Barbara?"
He looks around again and squints at 41:09 
Then they cut to Butch in the car.

----------


## Abishai100

In a soon-to-be-aired episode, Robin and the Graysons will be introduced.

The show is continuing to present Arkham Asylum, long before it became a mental institution incarceration center for the likes of Poison Ivy and the Joker.

Remember folks that Gotham City represents pure mania as it relates to modern age urbanization paranoia (i.e., crime syndicates, prostitution, vagrancy, night stalkers, etc.).

How "Gotham" (Fox TV) balances stories about characters such as the Graysons with stories about the character development of Dr. Leslie Thompkins (a practitioner at Arkham Asylum and something of a foil for Harley Quinn) will further reveal how the show fits into the Batman (DC Comics) empire's treatment of the Jungian Hellmouth that is Gotham City.

By the way, is Gotham City supposed to represent 1970s New York City or 1960s Boston?




 :EEK!:

----------


## brucekent12

I've always thought it was suppose to be New York City.

----------


## ispacehead

> You are 100% wrong. I still have the episode I downloaded.
> 
> At 40:46 he walks through the door
> At 40:55 he sees the bowls
> The camera cuts between him staring at them and a closeup of the bowls
> At 41:02 calls out "Barbara?"
> He looks around again and squints at 41:09 
> Then they cut to Butch in the car.


He calls her name upon walking in. (40:50)

Like I said.

He does say it in a more appropriate confused tone at 41:02, after seeing the bowls.

----------


## EdwardNigma

Good news Everyone! Gotham has been renewed for a second season!

----------


## EdwardNigma

Woo hoo! Just wanted to share the good news with everyone. Gotham has already been renewed for a second season! Good stuff.

----------


## ispacehead

> Good news Everyone! Gotham has been renewed for a second season!


I never doubted that it would for a second, but it's nice to get the official word.

Can't wait to see how they close out this season.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I never doubted that it would for a second, but it's nice to get the official word.
> 
> Can't wait to see how they close out this season.





> FOX is not wasting any time shoring up its primetime lineup for the 2015/2016 TV season, by announcing at the ongoing Television Critics Association (TCA) annual press tour in Pasadena, CA, that it has ordered second seasons for freshman series "Gotham" and "Empire," as well as a third season "Brooklyn Nine-Nine."
> 
> "Gotham" has averaged a healthy 10.6 million viewers, and a 4.2 rating in adults 18-49; “Empire,” meanwhile, is averaging 10.3 million viewers and a 5.3 adults 18-49 rating. So it's a certifiable hit for FOX!


http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowand...third-20150117

----------


## Abishai100

It feels like "Gotham" (Fox TV) is stylistically inspired by the works of Ray Bradbury.

The atmospheric designs are reminiscent of 1970s New York City but with the distinct Bob Kane neo-noir gothic tone.

So far, I'm impressed by the characterization of the Penguin and Harvey Dent, and the development of Edward Nygma is offbeat, quirky, and though under-appreciated, true to the Riddler colors from the comics.

The trend of exploring Gotham City's subconscious development explored in works such as "Batman: Year One" (Frank Miller) and "Batman Begins" (Christopher Nolan) indicates a fan base interest in analyzing the Jungian psycho-analytic aspects of the Dark Knight.

The deeds and daring of Jim Gordon on "Gotham" (Fox TV) will anchor the show as a very young Bruce Wayne simply watches the goings-on of Gotham City on the news.

If the writers of the show want to really push forward the idea that Batman (DC Comics) is America's version of Sherlock Holmes (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle), then themes about urban values will have to be coordinated with 'nihilism bravado.'  After all, the modern city is a nest for the pedestrianism critic.

I'm excited to see the introduction of Robin and the Graysons as well as the introduction of Dr. Crane (the future Scarecrow).




 :EEK!:

----------


## heyevaxx



----------


## tabo61

Spurned love played a role in Edward Nygma becoming the Riddler?

----------


## Godzilla2099

Gordon got with a good woman tonight.  

Too bad nice things don't last.

----------


## Nite-Wing

interesting how this season would have ended before fox ordered more episodes
electrocutioner went from hannibal lector to simply revenge obsessed mobster....meh

----------


## Triple J

> interesting how this season would have ended before fox ordered more episodes
> electrocutioner went from hannibal lector to simply revenge obsessed mobster....meh


While that was disappointing...I am glad that they spent the time on Fish/Penguin.

Anyways, I am intrigued to see where it goes now.

Will Maroni make a move? (he already suspects Penguin; Maroni might just kidnap Penguin's mother).

Also the scene at Fish's place was awesome...Falcone becoming who he used to be!

----------


## brucekent12

Enjoyed the episode, really like the series as a whole, and congrats to the cast and crew for an early sesson 2 renewal!

----------


## Xrated48

I thought this was a better episode than usually. I feel like the part with the penguin at the end should have ended it instead of the kiss but oh well

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Gordon got with a good woman tonight.  
> 
> Too bad nice things don't last.


I know I have said it before, but Morena Baccarin is so crazy good looking. It seems like time stops whenever she appears on screen.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> interesting how this season would have ended before fox ordered more episodes
> electrocutioner went from hannibal lector to simply revenge obsessed mobster....meh


I'm not entirely sure this would have been the ending, Fox ordered more eps a while back so stuff may be stretched out a bit.
I wasn't too into Electrocutioner so I found it decent development for Maroni. Speaking if, I wonder what he really thinks of Penguin? And whether Fish can use any of that to her advantage.




> Spurned love played a role in Edward Nygma becoming the Riddler?


It worked for animated Mad Hatter. Or maybe he's more upset she wasn't into riddles.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Agent Z

Looks like Falcone is now doing away with the friendly, grandpa act. :Frown:  Thanks for nothing, Fish.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 12 "What the Little Bird Told Him"  Really enjoyed Christopher Heyerdahl as the Electrocutioner.  Kind of funny how underwhelming Gordon stopping him with a cup of water was.  I'm curious what will happen to Penguin now that he's accidentally outed himself to Maroni.  It almost looked like Falcone had The Girls of Old Town with him when he showed up to his meeting with Fish.

----------


## ispacehead

Fun episode. 

Aaron Denzinger, not Helzinger apparently. This must be one of those 'pokes' we were told to expect.

And Jim is staying at the station. I knew there was something weird about his arrival at Barb's last episode. Doesn't really make sense still, since I doubt he could have been staying at the station while he was working at Arkham.... but anyway...

Great tension this episode. Nice to see Pengy get a one up on Fish. 

"Hi Fish!" coming from him was brilliant.

I'm glad she's still around. It'll be interesting to see what happens with her.

Gordon's final words with the Commissioner were awesome as well. "I'll make them EAT it."

On the negative side, Barb's parents were as uninteresting as she is. Like many, I haven't found her to be a favorite in the show. Still, pretty sad to see some of the hate she gets on Facebook posts from the show.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Gordon's final words with the Commissioner were awesome as well. "I'll make them EAT it..


Speaking of Peter Scolari, nice to see him getting a recurring role on this show. Been a fan of his since _Bosom Buddies_, though Donna Dixon inexplicably grabbed more of my attention back then.  :Smile:

----------


## ispacehead

> Speaking of Peter Scolari, nice to see him getting a recurring role on this show. Been a fan of his since _Bosom Buddies_, though Donna Dixon inexplicably grabbed more of my attention back then.


Nice. I didn't recognize him, but his performance was wonderful. Definitely look forward to seeing more sparks betweein him and our hero.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Nice. I didn't recognize him, but his performance was wonderful. Definitely look forward to seeing more sparks betweein him and our hero.


Yeah, he usually appears in more light-hearted fare, but Essen is the most serious role of his that I can recall. Very good addition.

----------


## ispacehead

> Yeah, he usually appears in more light-hearted fare, but Essen is the most serious role of his that I can recall. Very good addition.


Loeb, actually. Essen is the female Captain.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Loeb, actually. Essen is the female Captain.


Right. My fingers are not always in sync with my brain.   :Smile:  Thanks!

----------


## ispacehead

I figured it was something like that.  :Smile:

----------


## FishboneX

> Speaking of Peter Scolari, nice to see him getting a recurring role on this show. Been a fan of his since _Bosom Buddies_, though Donna Dixon inexplicably grabbed more of my attention back then.


I also recognized hi immediately, and always love when he pops up. He has a decent "hardest working guy in Hollywood" career, it just pales when you consider he co-starred with Tom Hanks!

Was also happy to see Dash Mihok show up there, is he going to be on more eps?

----------


## ispacehead

> I was more confused as to why Jim called out for Barbara when he returned from Arkham.


Now that I think about it, this is even more confusing. There really was no reason for Jim to be at the apartment except to realize that Cat and Ivy were squatting there. He knew that Barb had left, and he was apparently staying elsewhere.

So why did he go there?

Beyond that, why did Barbara call her own apartment looking for Jim? Doesn't he have his own cell?

Somehow all of the plot lines with Barbara seem to be the weakest of the show.

Not looking forward to finding out why her parents are so stuffy. Her role in the show should be minimalized.




> Was also happy to see Dash Mihok show up there, is he going to be on more eps?


Given his character's name, I'm guessing yes.  :Wink:

----------


## Randumbz

Yesterday's episode was fantastic. It might sound twisted to say this, but I was happy when Liza died and I was a little disappointed that Fish is still around. At least she's getting what she deserved now. It's great that Gordon is back on the force. I cheered when Gordon kissed Dr. Thompkins lol. Next week's episode is going to be even crazier.

----------


## Typhoeus

Great episode, great show. Falcone is really the boss...don't mess with the boss.
BTW, I got a bad feeling Fish will escape and expose penguin to Maroni.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Great episode, great show. Falcone is really the boss...don't mess with the boss.
> BTW, I got a bad feeling Fish will escape and expose penguin to Maroni.


I would say you're correct. Just waiting for Oswald to say, 'Uh, uh, Don Maroni, you know I would never, ever sell you out! Uh, I'm totally loyal to you!"  :Big Grin:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

I was just about to comment saying what a pussy Falcone is but wow!! that's the first time I have genuinely felt scared of Falcone. Brilliant stuff. The police stuff was kind of meh this week though. Also, why is Barbara still hogging pointless screen time?

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Great episode, great show. Falcone is really the boss...don't mess with the boss.
> BTW, I got a bad feeling Fish will escape and expose penguin to Maroni.


Maroni knows, he let him loose probs to track him. Atleast I hope that is the case.

----------


## ispacehead

> ...I was happy when Liza died and I was a little disappointed that Fish is still around. .


They totally psyched us. It really looked like it might be the end for Fish, but she's become a popular character. It makes sense to keep her around. I'm sure she still has some damage to do.

Not surprised about Liza, but I kinda expected Penguin to do the deed and lay it at Fish's feet. 

The turn of events worked for me.

My wife had it called when Liza said "He's never laid a hand on me," and I should have known she was right when Falcone said "Don't hurt her, she's a civilian." 

Obviously, she was not the civilian he thought she was.

----------


## Triple J

I think we are going to get our first official gang war soon...Falcone is going to run Maroni out of town (and Penguin might just take his - Maroni's - place).

Or maybe that's too soon. I want more of this - Crime Families of Gotham!

Anyways, Maroni suspects that Penguin is working with Falcone. So, he might do something - to Penguin (I am sure he had someone shadowing Penguin, after he left GCPD Hq).

----------


## Nite-Wing

I thought Fish was very stupid this episode 
I mean her whole plan was to run falcone out of town and take over but she has no backup in her own place to help her out?
riddler is weird 
some writer must really hate barbara to just stick her with this storyline even her parents don't like her come on
Its good to see Jim is going to be more proactive

I wonder why the show keeps dropping what's going on with selina,ivy,and bruce. I mean they are around

----------


## ispacehead

> I wonder why the show keeps dropping what's going on with selina,ivy,and bruce. I mean they are around


It really is Gordon's show.

As much as I love the kids, I don't want them to rely too much on them for the plot. 

I do enjoy the balance, and too much of a good thing can be too much. 

It's more of a cop drama after all than an after school special. 

 :Wink: 

I would rather see the kids than give Barbara a sideplot, though. ..

The kids are far more integral.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I think we are going to get our first official gang war soon...Falcone is going to run Maroni out of town (and Penguin might just take his - Maroni's - place).
> 
> Or maybe that's too soon. I want more of this - Crime Families of Gotham!
> 
> Anyways, Maroni suspects that Penguin is working with Falcone. So, he might do something - to Penguin (I am sure he had someone shadowing Penguin, after he left GCPD Hq).





> BTW, I got a bad feeling Fish will escape and expose penguin to Maroni.


If she does, I'm sure Penguin will high tail it back to Falcone. Which could set up Falcone/Penguin against maybe Maroni and Fish. That could be cool, Fish wwould want revenge on Falcone and Maroni would want Penguin too (as would Fish)




> I thought Fish was very stupid this episode 
> I mean her whole plan was to run falcone out of town and take over but she has no backup in her own place to help her out?


She isn't quite ready to lead the family yet but I'm sure she's past wanting to give Falcone an out and wants him dead now.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I wonder why the show keeps dropping what's going on with selina,ivy,and bruce. I mean they are around


They got to pace the story a bit. I think it works better to focus on smaller cast groupings so a bit of mafia episodes here and then some Bruce/Selena (and Ivy) there.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Is Fish only alive because she is played by Will Smith's wife?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Is Fish only alive because she is played by Will Smith's wife?


Her marriage to Will Smith isn't a factor. Fish is just a fun character.

----------


## JLH

> some writer must really hate barbara to just stick her with this storyline even her parents don't like her come on


I get the impression her parents don't "like" anyone!

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Her marriage to Will Smith isn't a factor. Fish is just a fun character.


But she served her purpose now why is she still alive? She should have been slaughtered (perhaps a bit too far lol) Needless to say she isn't as bad as Laurel on Arrow so I can live with Fish for now.

----------


## Agent Z

You know the irony of Fish's failure; she wanted Falcone out because she felt he was getting too soft. Well, that clearly isn't a problem now.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> But she served her purpose now why is she still alive?


Probably because she's popular with _Gotham_ fans.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Probably because she's popular with _Gotham_ fans.


Is she, really?  :Frown:  
I find Butch far more fascinating than her.

----------


## Cyberskeletor

> Is she, really?  
> I find Butch far more fascinating than her.


 Personally I like her simply because they managed to write her as the biggest drama queen ever. So.much.drama. It makes me laugh which is a good thing I'd say. My only complaint is a few minor character details from the few rouges we've seen and Barbara, geeze I hate her portrayal in the show.

----------


## PretenderNX01

Who says Fish's purpose is over? She did bring Falcone back but the mob war isn't really raging yet. She may be involved with that.




> I get the impression her parents don't "like" anyone!


I'm curious what's up with them. Kinda random to be nothing. I'm going out on a limb and saying they're Court of Owls  :Stick Out Tongue: 

CBR has an interview up with some teases from Bruno Heller (for anyone who doesn't see the "Breaking" notification)
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=58645

----------


## ispacehead

> Who says Fish's purpose is over? She did bring Falcone back but the mob war isn't really raging yet. She may be involved with that.


Yeah, Fish is far from done. Otherwise, why keep her alive?




> I'm going out on a limb and saying they're Court of Owls


Nice. Or perhaps they are involved in a high stakes private gambling ring?  :Wink:

----------


## king of hybrids

i'm going to guess that if fish escapes; she'd need to act through anonymous proxies for any future moves against falcone or maroni... like the red hood gang.

----------


## devil leonx

I have to say over all much better episode! it has cheesy moments and one scene did not quite make sense...the EMP grenade...what was the point?? but still quite a enjoyable episode, Gotham is at its best when it is being silly in a good way.

----------


## EdwardNigma

It was a great episode.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> i'm going to guess that if fish escapes; she'd need to act through anonymous proxies for any future moves against falcone or maroni... like the red hood gang.


Now that would be an interesting twist.

----------


## Cyberskeletor

> i'm going to guess that if fish escapes; she'd need to act through anonymous proxies for any future moves against falcone or maroni... like the red hood gang.


 That would be soooo awesome!! I'd be game to watch that!

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I loved Gordon being slightly unhinged here, taking risks he wouldn't have before.  The city has really got to him, but at least now he sort of knows the rules of the game he's playing.  Also nice to see him make that move on Leslie, I thought he was just going to let her go.

Loved Falcone.  You can tell he knows how to read people.  What Penguin told him was plausible, but he didn't want to believe that about Liza, so he had to see her first.  He asked her how long she had known Fish, she faltered, and that was enough to convince Falcone that Liza had been lying to him the whole time.  So to show his strength, he killed her with his bare hands.  Don't strike at the man through the memory of his mother!




> Spurned love played a role in Edward Nygma becoming the Riddler?


It looks like it's being spurned by society.  Eddie is having trouble connecting to anyone, even his attempts to be friendly with Gordon and Bullock are brushed off, and his affections for Miss Kringle go unwanted.  He's a smart guy, creepy at times, and wants companionship but can't go about finding it in the right way.  I'm wondering if he'll meet Query and/or Echo and if that would start him down his path.




> Great tension this episode. Nice to see Pengy get a one up on Fish. 
> 
> "Hi Fish!" coming from him was brilliant.


He sounds like a little kid tattling on her every time he says her name.




> I'm curious what's up with them. Kinda random to be nothing. I'm going out on a limb and saying they're Court of Owls


That'd be nuts.  They do come from money, though, so it's possible they are connected to the Waynes.

----------


## ispacehead

> He sounds like a little kid tattling on her every time he says her name.


Somehow, when he said it this time it was like the first time I realized the obvious. 

Penguins eat fish.

Such a wonderful delivery.

----------


## heyevaxx

http://www.toofab.com/2015/01/23/got...penguin-video/
*Gotham Star Robin Lord Taylor on Danny DeVito's Penguin Praise: It Feels Incredible, Let's Get a Drink!*

Gotham star Robin Lord Taylor is basking in the glow of some major praise from his Penguin predecessor, Danny DeVito. 

The "Batman Returns" star recently revealed he's seen the new Fox series and is a fan of Taylor's work so far. "I've watched the show. I think he's a very good young Penguin," he told Access Hollywood. "He's a terrific actor."

Well, Robin heard the good word -- and he's thrilled!

"I still can't get over it. I've said it before, but I've watched 'Batman Returns' a billion times, it's one of those films where I can continually watch it over and over again because of his performance," Robin tells toofab. "it doesn't get any better than that. I just feels incredible."

And while he has yet to meet the "Always Sunny In Philadelphia" star in person, he's very close to someone who could make it happen.

"Carol Kane, who plays my mom [on Gotham], is really good friends with Danny and Rhea, so she'll come to set and go 'Guess who I had dinner with last night? Your predecessor.' Could you call me next time? I just want to get drunk with the guy, two Penguins on the town!" 

Though DeVito only played Oswald Cobblepot for one film, Taylor just found out he'll play the Batman villain for at least two seasons of television. The Fox show was just picked up for Season 2 over the weekend -- and the 36-year-old actor found out the same time everyone else did.

"I woke up in bed, rolled over, let's look at Twitter," he says. "No call or anything, but it was just amazing!"

----------


## brucekent12

Congratulations to Robin and everyone associated with the show on the second season pickup. Well deserved!

----------


## devil leonx

> Congratulations to Robin and everyone associated with the show on the second season pickup. Well deserved!


same here! looking forward to rest of this season and the next, may the show be great!

----------


## Abishai100

Tonight's episode promises to offer continued development of Jim Gordon's interactions between the GCPD and Arkham.  That should be a good primer for the anticipated upcoming introduction of Dr. Crane (the future Scarecrow).


Gotham City represents our modern social anxieties regarding over-ambitious urbanization venom paranoia.



 :EEK!:

----------


## brucekent12

Love Monday nights. Cant wait to see another great episode!

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 13 "Welcome Back, Jim Gordon" I liked the case Gordon was working on but this episode didn't do much else for me.  Almost felt like we were getting the origin of the Iceberg Lounge during the Penguin scene.  I did like the scene with Zsasz and "The Girls of Old Town" though as well as the scene with Flass getting arrested.  I hope Butch survives.

----------


## tabo61

My favorite scene from tonight's episode was Gordon's reaction when he met Cobblepot's mom

----------


## Typhoeus

I knew Fish would escape! I knew it! I knew it! I knew it!!!




> Great episode, great show. Falcone is really the boss...don't mess with the boss.
> BTW, *I got a bad feeling Fish will escape* and expose penguin to Maroni.


Now to the next phase... Exposing Penguin.

----------


## TheUbiquitous

I unironically enjoyed tonight's episode entirely. 

Gotham is finally turning around! Hurrah! 

----

I really hope this show makes it to showing Nora Fries walking around before her accident. I really hope. (And with the Timm backstory, not the new poser backstory.)

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Almost felt like we were getting the origin of the Iceberg Lounge during the Penguin scene.


It seemed like it but then Fish walked in which actually surprised me. Now with her leaving town though it could be his again. And  think that scarf was Liza's right? The one his mom found. Foreshadowing or just an example of what he's keeping from her?




> Gotham is finally turning around! Hurrah!


I think it's been fine for a whole now but glad you are liking it.

I'm curious where that last scene leads. Did the guy set up the cop out of fear or was his confession still valid but now he thinks Gordon's a thug? It was nice to see some more of the GCPD standing up for what's right.

And I wonder if Selena's been so coy because she didn't see the killer's face or if she made that part up to keep Bruce away?

----------


## JoeJoe

I loved it tonight!

----------


## marvelguy25

How do you guys feel about that ending?

----------


## zwixxx

I'm calling s2 will begin with a time jump (though this ain't no original thought). But I don't think anyone else's said s1 will end with Jim in prison, leading to the s2 opening, 4-5 years later, with Jim released having been cleared.

----------


## Triple J

> It seemed like it but then Fish walked in which actually surprised me. Now with her leaving town though it could be his again. And  think that scarf was Liza's right? The one his mom found. Foreshadowing or just an example of what he's keeping from her?
> 
> 
> I think it's been fine for a whole now but glad you are liking it.
> 
> I'm curious where that last scene leads. Did the guy set up the cop out of fear or was his confession still valid but now he thinks Gordon's a thug? It was nice to see some more of the GCPD standing up for what's right.
> 
> And I wonder if Selena's been so coy because she didn't see the killer's face or if she made that part up to keep Bruce away?


I think Gordon just realized that most of those people (in GCPD) aren't really bad folks..they are just afraid of the people running the city (afraid for their families and so forth). Sure, Captain Essen had told him that several times, but I don't think he realized it until now. When his own determination to get a corrupted cop (Flass) arrested led to someone else's family being tortured/kidnapped.

----------


## neonrideraryeh

I love how Gordon basically has had absolutely no filter these past couple episodes.  He says and does whatever the hell he wants and it's awesome.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Show is really picking up and I love how they are showing that the corruption is so rampant in Gotham, getting help will put you in a compromising situation as with Gordon and getting the evidence to take down Flass.

----------


## ispacehead

> How do you guys feel about that ending?


I'm guessing he was acting under direction after the threat to his wife. 

"We're gonna need a little more than that."




> And I wonder if Selena's been so coy because she didn't see the killer's face or if she made that part up to keep Bruce away?


I've been wondering about this since she made the claim. We were never given any reason to believe she had seen the killer's face in the first episode. I get the impression she really was lying, but maybe we'll find out more about that scene later down the road. Did Selena follow the killer?

----------


## daBronzeBomma

After two consecutive episodes with no Bruce and Alfred (though I admit, they DID give a solid reason), the first episode with them back has made me realize something: the only reason I care about this show is its connection to the Batverse.  The stronger the connection, the more invested I get.  The weaker the connection, the less invested I get.  The past two eps without young Bruce I wound up wondering why I was even watching the dang show in the first place.  As soon as I saw Bruce and Alfred in this ep, I remembered why.

I treat GOTHAM as if it's subtitled: "BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE".  And I'm not apologizing for it.  

My enjoyment of this show is directly correlated with how much Bruce Wayne they give us.  There's no other factor even close to as strong for me to watch.  Guess I'll check the previews to make sure Bruce will be featured in the actual episode from now on.  

No Bruce = no GOTHAM.  

Not for me.  

Don't care.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

It is kind of the opposite with me I have enjoyed these past couple issues more because they didn't shove Bruce down our throat and because of that I was fine seeing him again this week, I hope they continue doing it this way here on out.

----------


## ispacehead

> I treat GOTHAM as if it's subtitled: "BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE".  And I'm not apologizing for it.


No reason why you should. That certainly is one of the elements that make the show good.




> My enjoyment of this show is directly correlated with how much Bruce Wayne they give us.  There's no other factor even close to as strong for me to watch.


While I was definitely missing Alfred and Bruce, I thought the last 2 episodes were better than last night's.

(Not that I didn't enjoy the episode...)

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I'm calling s2 will begin with a time jump (though this ain't no original thought). But I don't think anyone else's said s1 will end with Jim in prison, leading to the s2 opening, 4-5 years later, with Jim released having been cleared.


I would be cool with that.

----------


## TheUbiquitous

> I think it's been fine for a whole now but glad you are liking it.


It's been getting better, for sure. Until now, though, there have always been things about each episode that break the suspension of disbelief for me, usually Barbara Gordon- or Renee Montoya-shaped.

----------


## TheUbiquitous

I think we need another season of corrupt Gotham before Gordon starts to make real headway against the Commissioner and organized crime, then the timejump, and then all of a sudden he's the man appointed to fix the GCPD because of his stand against corruption.

----------


## Tupiaz

> It is kind of the opposite with me I have enjoyed these past couple issues more because they didn't shove Bruce down our throat and because of that I was fine seeing him again this week, I hope they continue doing it this way here on out.


Agreed I also like that the connection don't have to be with Batman but can be with other characters related to Batman. I kind of hope the will make a spin off series with Arkham however Arkham seem to just be loosely out there especially now since Jim is back in homicide.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> then the timejump,.





> I'm calling s2 will begin with a time jump


People need to get over the idea of Gotham having a timejump or timeskip. It's not going to happen. Grieve it and move on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/t...tman/15457671/
_Unlike other comic-book series CW's The Flash and NBC's Constantine muscling their way into the fall lineup, those tuning in to see the Dark Knight in action may be disappointed, as Batman won't appear until the end of the series  which Heller hopes will extend for five to seven seasons._

----------


## ispacehead

I love that Jim is the one to come up with the answers to Nygma's riddles when he poses them.

----------


## Toreador

They really need to bring the Reaper for an arc or lingering in the background now and then.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> After two consecutive episodes with no Bruce and Alfred (though I admit, they DID give a solid reason), the first episode with them back has made me realize something: the only reason I care about this show is its connection to the Batverse.  The stronger the connection, the more invested I get.  The weaker the connection, the less invested I get.  The past two eps without young Bruce I wound up wondering why I was even watching the dang show in the first place.  As soon as I saw Bruce and Alfred in this ep, I remembered why.
> 
> I treat GOTHAM as if it's subtitled: "BATMAN'S SMALLVILLE".  And I'm not apologizing for it.  
> 
> My enjoyment of this show is directly correlated with how much Bruce Wayne they give us.  There's no other factor even close to as strong for me to watch.  Guess I'll check the previews to make sure Bruce will be featured in the actual episode from now on.


The difference being Clark Kent was the main character on Smallville and is the main character in the Superman Mythos.  Bruce Wayne may be the main character in the Batman Mythos, but Jim Gordon is the main character on Gotham.  It's a lot easier to do an episode without Bruce than an episode without Gordon.  Your reaction is understandable, but I feel connected to the Batverse as long as the Gotham PD is out there doing its job.  Doesn't mean I don't miss Bruce when he's not around, though.




> People need to get over the idea of Gotham having a timejump or timeskip. It's not going to happen. Grieve it and move on.


Especially not while Bruce and Selina actors' ages match up so well with how old the characters are supposed to be.  There might be one towards the end of the series to skip over some of Bruce's overseas training, but there's no need for one this early on.

----------


## brucekent12

IMHO the show is relly picking up steam over the last few episodes as it races to the first season conclusion. And I predict its going to be a good one!

----------


## TheObsessor

Good things about Gotham:
Riddler
Penguin
Falcone, Maroni
Harvey Bullock (despite being different from his comic book counterpart)
Bruce Wayne
Zsasz 

Bad things about Gotham:
Renee Montoya and Crispus Alan
Barbara Kane
Cases solved with leaps of logic
Bad writing masked by good characterization
plot moves to quickly (Gordon reinstated after one episode? COME ON)

Despite it's many flaws, I find the show extremely enjoyable. It and Hannibal are the only two shows I keep up with, barring a few anime (I have little patience with American television).

----------


## Tupiaz

> Crispus Alan
> Bad writing masked by good characterization


Well to make good characterisation you need to have good writing so the statement is kind of counteract itself. Yes the show as you mention has it problem with pacing which could be solved in having more two part stories. Making time for the crime story to unfold and thus making the need for Deus Ex Machina and quick answer to the murder mystery less needed. I don't understand why you can say Allen is a bad thing with the show since he has barely been in it and has maybe had like three lines in the show so far. I think we need to see more of him to make a final judgment. Many disliked the Riddler in the beginning as well.

----------


## ispacehead

I don't mind Allen.

He actually reminds me very much of a police friend of mine. Paricularly the way he interacts with Bullock in the first episode.

That whole "stay frosty" cocky charm seems very authentic to me.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I for one still dislike the riddler he's getting a quirky reinvention like Penguin only its not working because his character was never about being weird

I'm not sure how the show is bad because it is a glorious representation of the dumb campy elements in Batman and Gotham city but I feel like half the plot since the pilot discovering the Wayne's killer has been dropped and now were on the other half which is ongoing gang war interspersed with villain of the week. The latter is great but we aren't getting enough of it.
Also the cast is pretty big and they aren't even really focusing on Gordon(the main character) as much as they should

----------


## ispacehead

Riddler is a bit George Mcfly nerdy but it's still working for me.

I'm kinda glad they aren't focusing too much on the Wayne murders. Lots of crime in Gotham. And plenty of characters to explore. 

I'm actually kinda surprised at how quickly Gordon is progressing in the department. 

Saw today that a Joker storyline is coming before the end of the season.  : )

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 14 "The Fearsome Dr. Crane"  I liked the intro.  Nice to see Maria Thayer show up.  Nod to Professor Pyg.  Morena Baccarin needs more screen time.  I found the Fish Mooney, Riddler and Penguin story lines uninteresting.  Although the ending has me curious.

----------


## tabo61

I liked how Cobblepot used his wits to get out of that car compactor

----------


## Tupiaz

> I for one still dislike the riddler he's getting a quirky reinvention like Penguin only its not working because his character was never about being weird
> 
> I'm not sure how the show is bad because it is a glorious representation of the dumb campy elements in Batman and Gotham city but I feel like half the plot since the pilot discovering the Wayne's killer has been dropped and now were on the other half which is ongoing gang war interspersed with villain of the week. The latter is great but we aren't getting enough of it.
> Also the cast is pretty big and they aren't even really focusing on Gordon(the main character) as much as they should


Both in the 66 show and in the Batman Forever show he is weird probably been shown this way other places as well. For him to go against stupidity and society it makes sense that he is treated they way he is for who he is. He is not appreciated nor valued which makes him turn against society. Besides many of the character has been tweaked to fit the show. Penguin never came for a poor family. His weird relationship with his mother I haven't seen or heard of before this.

----------


## Typhoeus

First I said this:



> Great episode, great show. Falcone is really the boss...don't mess with the boss.
> BTW, I got a bad feeling *Fish will escape and expose penguin to Maroni*.


Then last week, I said that:



> I knew Fish would escape! I knew it! I knew it! I knew it!!!
> Now to the next phase... *Exposing Penguin*.


That's confirmed, I'M THE GOD OF GOTHAM!!!!
ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE ME!

----------


## The Kid

Penguin is MVP of the show so far. I've gone from thinking he was one of the most overrated Bat villains to him being one of my favorites

----------


## PretenderNX01

I like that Nygma got a little more nefarious to get what he wanted this week. He wasn't out and out super-villain but he crossed a line and then acted so innocent about it.
It also seems they are avoiding him being jilted as his reason for going bad, more like him impressing her took one dark choice and that can lead to another and make it easier for him to go too far.

I wonder if Leslie will tolerate Nygma's help more than the last medical examiner did? 




> I liked how Cobblepot used his wits to get out of that car compactor


That was good too. I wondered how they'd do it, he could just slip out but his threatening the guy was good.




> Bad writing masked by good characterization


I'd say that's a good thing. If I have to choose between the two, I'll take a show with competent actors as this is TV and not a book. Writing alone can't help a TV show if the actors aren't good.

Mind you I don't think the writing is bad on Gotham, it's maybe more comic book-y that people are used to but it's still good fun.

Come on, pirates boarded Fish's boat and she charged at him. I think she can handle herself but I'm sure there will be some drama first. Could Falcone be behind it or someone new?

----------


## Red_11

> Come on, pirates boarded Fish's boat and she charged at him. I think she can handle herself but I'm sure there will be some drama first. Could Falcone be behind it or someone new?


Tiger Shark?   (no idea, just guessing)

That was my favorite episode by far, just great all around.

----------


## ispacehead

That was a great episode.

They seem to be falling into a groove. We got just enough of everything.

No more tears from Bruce I'm guessing, eh?

----------


## brucekent12

The show is getting better and better each week!

----------


## godisawesome

> Tiger Shark?   (no idea, just guessing)
> 
> That was my favorite episode by far, just great all around.


My friend and I thought that would be a great idea.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> No more tears from Bruce I'm guessing, eh?


Yeah it was a quieter moment but I think we saw Bruce step up as an independent detective.




> Tiger Shark?   (no idea, just guessing)





> My friend and I thought that would be a great idea.


Oh, that's actually a great idea. I hadn't thought of that but one of the Tiger Sharks that DC has used does have ties to Court of Owls and wears a red mask (Red Hood is coming)


http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Tiger_Shark_(New_Earth)

I couldn't think of any modern pirates who would be near Gotham but that would totally work.

----------


## Abishai100

What will the Graysons look like?  Will Bruce Wayne interact with them?


There's been a good deal of cross-overs of Ra's al Ghul between "Arrow" (The CW) and "The Flash" (The CW), so I'd be fascinated by a pre-tribulation presentation of Ra's al Ghul on "Gotham" (Fox TV).



 :EEK!: 

warner.jpg

----------


## ispacehead

> Yeah it was a quieter moment but I think we saw Bruce step up as an independent detective.


And as a young man. 

I love that Alfred has such a hand in the shaping of Bruce's demeanor. It makes the bond between them stronger.

It's interesting to see the transformation this way.

Also, that Catwoman had such a role in the hardening of Bruce's heart.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Also, that Catwoman had such a role in the hardening of Bruce's heart.


It does add an extra layer to their on-again-off-again relationship they have later on.

Milo Vetimilgia has been cast as a character original to Gotham, Jason Lennon
http://deadline.com/2015/02/milo-ven...in-1201366256/

No relation to the Ogre or OGRE armor.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> That's confirmed, I'M THE GOD OF GOTHAM!!!!
> ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE ME!


Any thoughts on who killed the Waynes, then?

I'm hoping the subplot of Bruce searching for the murderer goes somewhere, but at the same time, I do want Gordon to be the one who solves it.  Maybe through an important clue Bruce uncovers.

----------


## EdwardNigma

It was good to see Crane's dad. Glad they didn't catch him.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I for one still dislike the riddler he's getting a quirky reinvention like Penguin only its not working because his character was never about being weird
> 
> I'm not sure how the show is bad because it is a glorious representation of the dumb campy elements in Batman and Gotham city but I feel like half the plot since the pilot discovering the Wayne's killer has been dropped and now were on the other half which is ongoing gang war interspersed with villain of the week. The latter is great but we aren't getting enough of it.
> Also the cast is pretty big and they aren't even really focusing on Gordon(the main character) as much as they should


COMPLETELY agree with you. He should be more arrogant than awkward.

----------


## Abishai100

With the upcoming feature about the premonitions of the Scarecrow (Jonathan Crane), it seems prudent to ask just how "Gotham" (Fox TV) is casting Gotham City as an urbanization consciousness symbol of traffic omens (i.e., street crime, pedestrian terrorism, etc.).

Our world seems to be gauged by consumerism conveniences (i.e., eTrade, eBay, email, etc.).  Inside-man corruption seems to be the standard of crime.

How will "Gotham" (Fox TV) address relevant modern age social issues such as sales of violence-themed consumer toys (i.e., water-guns)?

Will Jonathan Crane be revealed as a prophet of modern indiscretions?



 :EEK!: 

greengun.jpg

----------


## PennyD

I really hope the do Joker well. I am pleased by the show but am still skeptical about it's future.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 15 "The Scarecrow" I wasn't interested in the Fish or Bruce stories but I am curious how Fish got from the boat to where ever she is now.  My first guess was that she might be in Santa Prisca but I'm not sure.  I did like the special effects for the scarecrow though especially at the end.  Tickets to the circus must mean we will get to see The Flying Graysons soon.

----------


## tabo61

So the Scarecrow's dad was more crazier than him.

----------


## brucekent12

Still like the show, think it gets better every week.

----------


## The Moviegoer

> Episode 15 "The Scarecrow" I wasn't interested in the Fish or Bruce stories but I am curious how Fish got from the boat to where ever she is now.  My first guess was that she might be in Santa Prisca but I'm not sure.  I did like the special effects for the scarecrow though especially at the end.  Tickets to the circus must mean we will get to see The Flying Graysons soon.


I'm willing to bet the Dollmaker is the one who captured Fish, just based on what they did to that woman at the end. Dollmaker does appear to have the resources to hold all those people and he did try to smmugle all those kids in one of the earlier episodes. I also think I heard he would be showing up soon.

----------


## colossus34

So tired of seeing Bruce cry tears literally every episode he's in. He really needs to man up a bit. 

The Scarecrow origin was actually very cool, I'm digging that fact Crane now lives in a perpetual state of fear himself, very twisted/demented.

Fish Mooney as usual is a predictable bore, that "twist" with her killing the guy was telegraphed so heavy handed. Why can't they kill her off already?

Seems a bit too soon to be seeing the origin of Joker, but I'm curious to see their "origin" for him,

----------


## PretenderNX01

> So tired of seeing Bruce cry tears literally every episode he's in. He really needs to man up a bit.


Well, he's a kid and he is growing up quite a bit. I think people are too accustomed to bat-god and i'm glad this is giving him real growth.

Fish was maybe predicable but still enjoyable, she can take control of any situation which is how and why she survives. Hoping for her death is futile. Not sure how she got tangled up with Dollmaker but that seems to be what happened. Creepy.

I liked the origin for Scarecrow and the interaction between Lee and Gordon was cute, same as Penguin meeting Riddler.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Well, he's a kid and he is growing up quite a bit. I think people are too accustomed to bat-god and i'm glad this is giving him real growth.


I agree. It would be ridiculous if he was Batman emotionally at this point.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

I think the new Scarecrow origin is the best departure from the comics they've had so far.

It's interesting to see just how ruthless Falcone can be while still doing everything he can to stay on good terms with Maroni.  I think his 'present' actually scared Maroni into leaving Penguin alone.

----------


## ispacehead

> So tired of seeing Bruce cry tears literally every episode he's in. He really needs to man up a bit.


He's still learning to put all the loss in place. His tearful tantrum here doesn't seem so far removed from other portrayals, particularly when he's seen visiting his parents' graves. And it did seen to transform from misery to anger pretty quickly.




> Fish was maybe predicable but still enjoyable, she can take control of any situation which is how and why she survives. Hoping for her death is futile.


I agree. I initially expected her to die at Penguin's hands some time this season. I still can't help but think she'll get hers down the line, but I don't see it happening any time soon.




> I think the new Scarecrow origin is the best departure from the comics they've had so far.


I enjoyed the episode a lot, but I did think the inclusion of an actual scarecrow was a bit unnecessary. It was a pretty nice visual though.

I did enjoy seeing Eddie and Ozzy meet. Loved that they didn't particularly hit it off.  

Alfred's brief appearances were wonderful, though sometimes I have to listen back to figure out what the heck he's said.

My favorite line was probably the one where Falcone talked about Peguin realizing that he's just a freak, and that he'll never run this town. Heh. Oh yes he will...   :Wink: 

Oh...and as much as I'm enjoying Jim and Lee, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop when Barb returns. (Pregnant?)

----------


## Jorriss

Don't take this to be a large complaint, but is it just me or is Penguin horrible at thinking on his feet?

----------


## ispacehead

> Don't take this to be a large complaint, but is it just me or is Penguin horrible at thinking on his feet?


He has been caught flat footed at the club twice now.

You'd think he would have learned to keep some extra muscle about after Fish.

----------


## colossus34

> He's still learning to put all the loss in place. His tearful tantrum here doesn't seem so far removed from other portrayals, particularly when he's seen visiting his parents' graves. And it did seen to transform from misery to anger pretty quickly.


I get that once or twice would have been okay but he literally bursts into tears every episode, I'm waiting for the inevitable 5 minute youtube compilation of crying Bruce Wayne a year from now.

----------


## Scott Taylor

Last night was my first episode of Gotham. Nice stuff, I especially like the young Penguin and Gordon. Man, I don't know what to think about that Scarecrow origin. That was so messed up.

----------


## ispacehead

> I get that once or twice would have been okay but he literally bursts into tears every episode.


That seems a little exaggerated. 

This episode he didn't really burst into tears. He sobbed in anguish once after throwing the rocks and then his anguish turned to rage.

----------


## Naked Bat

a kid who lost his parents crying? This is ridiculous! He should be training in the moutains instead! how come he's not already chasing thigs in the east end?

----------


## PretenderNX01

> a kid who lost his parents crying? This is ridiculous! He should be training in the moutains instead! how come he's not already chasing thigs in the east end?


LOL and when he is running around through Gotham with Selena avoiding assassins people get mad too. Can't win with some.




> Don't take this to be a large complaint, but is it just me or is Penguin horrible at thinking on his feet?


It depends on the situation, he thought his way out of being crushed but that was all he had going on a the time. I think he's weaker in multitasking which is how they can get him at the club, too much going on.




> Last night was my first episode of Gotham. Nice stuff, I especially like the young Penguin and Gordon. Man, I don't know what to think about that Scarecrow origin. That was so messed up.


Cool, glad you liked it. I think it's been shaping up well.

----------


## Black_Adam

> I think the new Scarecrow origin is the best departure from the comics they've had so far.


Yeah I was impressed with how they handled it, in the end Jonathan was another victim of his fathers madness. Will be interesting to see if he appears again down the road, maybe in a season or two, still struggling to conquer his demons (or scarecrows in his case).

I like how they actually fleshed out Dr. Crane and his son, with a real motive and story behind their actions. This compared to the episode with Black Mask's father, it was like: he's evil, likes violence and has a fetish for masks, GEE I WONDER WHAT ROMAN WILL GROW UP TO BECOME?! lol

----------


## ispacehead

Holy cow.

1st peek at Joker.




"Do you know why you're here?"

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I don't want to criticize Bruce's plot, but it didn't hold my attention as much as the rest of the episode did.  The Alfred stuff at the end was nice, but it didn't amount to a big moment I thought it might (not a Batcave moment, just...something bigger).




> It's interesting to see just how ruthless Falcone can be while still doing everything he can to stay on good terms with Maroni.  I think his 'present' actually scared Maroni into leaving Penguin alone.


That was the most disturbing part of the episode.  Seeing that judge in a compromising position and then talking about "sharing" him...

----------


## Abishai100

Since this show is exploring all kinds of angles about the developing seediness of Gotham and its various intricate infrastructure (by the way, the set designs for this show are way above average), they really should explore thematic relevances to Killer Croc.


Killer Croc is a very under-appreciated Batman nemesis.  He's deformed, monstrous, sinister, brutish, and creepy.  He sort of looks like a crocodile-man, and he's adept at wrestling (and bullying), and he captures Bat-fan fascination with 'evil imagery.'

Maybe Jim Gordon can find some odd happenings in Gotham's sewers, and this could serve as a nice foreshadow to the rise of Killer Croc.

I liked the portrayal of Jonathan Crane (the future Scarecrow), and I'm excited to see Joker and the Graysons as well as the appearance of the talented actor Colm Feore.

There's a lot on slate for this show, but I'm still hoping David Duchovny (of X-Files fame) will be picked up to portray a younger Ra's al Ghul.

Anyways, a Killer Croc theme focus could serve nicely, and it could be just the right sort of detective feather that Jim Gordon needs to establish himself as a true inspector of maniacs.

I'm going to eat jalapeno poppers from now on as a personal new "Gotham" (Fox TV) night tradition.





 :EEK!:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Why won't Fish die!!!! She is hogging too much screen time.

----------


## signalman112

Agree!!!
Every time I see Fish on screen I cringe from Jada's overacting. It almost unwatchable.

The Crane story was very good.
And I enjoy the sceen with Edward and Oswald.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Why won't Fish die!!!! She is hogging too much screen time.





> Agree!!!
> Every time I see Fish on screen I cringe from Jada's overacting. It almost unwatchable..


Those are your opinions, other people feel differently. I know some who love Fish best, she's popular with some earlier on this thread.

----------


## neonrideraryeh

I also cringe from the overacting from Fish and hope she is killed off too.  Worst part of the show for sure.

----------


## ispacehead

I don't think Pinkett Smith's performance is any more over dramatic than some of the other colorful denizens of Gotham. Victor Zsasz is a great character, but the guy's performance is borderline hammy. 

I'm still digging. And there have been worse performances on the show, though luckily not from such prominent characters.

I like Fish, though I do hope to see her get hers at some point.  :Wink:

----------


## brucekent12

Maybe Jada learned some acting from the master of overacting, William Shatner!

----------


## devil leonx

> I think the new Scarecrow origin is the best departure from the comics they've had so far.
> 
> It's interesting to see just how ruthless Falcone can be while still doing everything he can to stay on good terms with Maroni.  I think his 'present' actually scared Maroni into leaving Penguin alone.


Indeed, this is one of the times Gothams teasing of what's to come worked out pretty well and made for a mostly good episode...the fish parts are still.......lets say iffy... also just to say the scene with riddler  and Penguin  while i liked it...it was point less lol.

----------


## Abishai100

I hope the writers of "Gotham" (Fox TV) do not allow the presentation/development of the Joker to interfere with the presentation/development of Harvey Dent/Two-Face.

"Gotham" (Fox TV) is an investment in the Batman (DC Comics) empire's artistic presentation of Jim Gordon's early Gotham City, a place where super-villains are just developing and revealing Gotham City's face of urban seediness and sarcasm.

Two-Face is a very symbolic character, and how Harvey Dent interacts with the GCPD (and with Jim Gordon's office) will represent how "Gotham" (Fox TV) presents Gotham City's development of modern age urbanization-paranoia related anxieties about anarchism and its related crimes (i.e., crime syndicates, arson, etc.).

"I will compel Gotham City to see its other face --- the face of justice dissatisfaction.  I am Two-Face."


 :EEK!: 

Here's a YouTube mobile of a Two-Face interview:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJgyULUt_4

----------


## tabo61

I liked how they filmed the scene where Cobblepot dealt with that heckler when his mom was singing.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 16 "The Blind Fortune Teller" Haly's Circus and the Flying Graysons!  Nice to see Cameron Monaghan from Shameless show up and I thought he had a creepy Joker smile and laugh.  I also liked Mark Margolis as Paul Cicero.  Glad that Butch survived.  Red Hood next week.

----------


## Zorkel567

> I also cringe from the overacting from Fish and hope she is killed off too.  Worst part of the show for sure.


I haven't watched since the mid season finale, still have to catch up, but I love Fish myself. She is interesting because she's not a classic villain, and she is fun. She's different, but I feel she's one of my favorites, alongside Oswald Cobblepot.

----------


## Double 0

> Those are your opinions, other people feel differently. I know some who love Fish best, she's popular with some earlier on this thread.


I really like Fish and Zsasz.  They make the show less police drama and more comic-booky.

----------


## Jadeb

Tonight's episode was a mess, and it really pointed up the limitations of the "procedural prequel" format. As soon as they teased that the kid might be the Joker, it set him up as the prime suspect and we're left waiting for the last 10 minutes to see what will either be exactly what we're expecting or a disappointment. The actor did a good job in the end, but it made the preceding 45 minutes feel like filler -- just something to pass the time until the reveal. 

Overall, the casting is saving this show. They've found some tremendous actors and actresses to embody the freakier residents of Gotham.

----------


## Panfoot

> Tonight's episode was a mess, and it really pointed up the limitations of the "procedural prequel" format. As soon as they teased that the kid might be the Joker, it set him up as the prime suspect and we're left waiting for the last 10 minutes to see what will either be exactly what we're expecting or a disappointment. The actor did a good job in the end, but it made the preceding 45 minutes feel like filler -- just something to pass the time until the reveal. 
> 
> Overall, the casting is saving this show. They've found some tremendous actors and actresses to embody the freakier residents of Gotham.


Agreed, and they still seem to just...don't know what to do with Barbara. Though I suppose her little bit tonight was then the last time she popped up.

----------


## Jorriss

> Tonight's episode was a mess, and it really pointed up the limitations of the "procedural prequel" format. As soon as they teased that the kid might be the Joker, it set him up as the prime suspect and we're left waiting for the last 10 minutes to see what will either be exactly what we're expecting or a disappointment. The actor did a good job in the end, but it made the preceding 45 minutes feel like filler -- just something to pass the time until the reveal. 
> 
> Overall, the casting is saving this show. They've found some tremendous actors and actresses to embody the freakier residents of Gotham.


It really was a mess. I also do not like this rendition of Leslie Thomkins so far. Her attitude towards the psychic was silly in my opinion.

I really would have been satisfied if the entire episode was based on that boardroom scene.

----------


## Jadeb

> It really was a mess. I also do not like this rendition of Leslie Thomkins so far. Her attitude towards the psychic was silly in my opinion.


Agree. There was a lot of stupidity in this episode, from Leslie's irrational faith in the psychic to the entire Fish storyline to the scene where Gordon almost immediately happens upon key evidence half-buried in leaves in the dark with a flashlight. 

The Grayson references felt really ham-fisted, too. One of the worst episodes they've done.

----------


## Jorriss

> Agree. There was a lot of stupidity in this episode, from Leslie's irrational faith in the psychic to the entire Fish storyline to the scene where Gordon almost immediately happens upon key evidence half-buried in leaves in the dark with a flashlight.


With all that being said, I did enjoy the last scene with the (pre) Joker. I was worried I wouldn't be able to see him as not Ian (from Shameless) but I thought his laugh and facial gestures were fitting.

----------


## colossus34

> ham-fisted, too.


Ham fisted, yup that sums up this show well.

And that last scene with Babs walking in on Gordon/Leslie felt straight out of a day time soap opera... major cringe.

Only highlight of the episode was the joker monologue at the end, great casting and spot on performance for the kid. I could see him becoming a terrifying joker.

----------


## ispacehead

I thought it was a great episode.

So much going on. Fish's storyline seemed a little more tacked on than usual, but at least it moved forward amidst the many other events of the evening.

A fine performance by our young Joker. The punchline about Mom was brilliant.

So much for that "tap on the door" comment from Heller, huh?

I loved the Grayson's costumes. I loved everything about the circus feud. Jerome's father. (!!!)

Bruce taking it to the board.

Fashion tips from the Sirens.

Leslie likes riddles.

Man. What wasn't there to like this episode?

Oswald's was a bit over the top bad, but I guess this thing with Butch should be fun.

Looking forward to next week already.

----------


## The Kid

The guy who played Joker was pretty great. Wish they hadn't spoiled it in the promos. Would have been a major surprise otherwise

----------


## ispacehead

> The guy who played Joker was pretty great. Wish they hadn't spoiled it in the promos. Would have been a major surprise otherwise


I gotta agree, but even knowing. ...that was pretty stunning.

----------


## MykeHavoc

I like incorporating Haly's Circus more into the mythos. I had perceived a way for most of the Major villains to have a connection to it. I felt it could make an interesting origin point, even more so than Arkham. Speaking of which. What is the state of the place currently? Did they shut it down after the last few episodes? Seems like obvious place for Gerome to end up.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Good episode overall but I just can't see what they are doing with Bruce or the other kids on this show.
Jerome should have just been called Joe, he pulled the part off

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Only highlight of the episode was the joker monologue at the end, great casting and spot on performance for the kid. I could see him becoming a terrifying joker.


Man, he was a totally different person once he went pre-Joker mode. Terrifying he will be.

----------


## ispacehead

It's interesting that they came right out and called this character Joker in the commercial spot. 

My understanding was that his identity would be more ambiguous.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I liked how they filmed the scene where Cobblepot dealt with that heckler when his mom was singing.


Gotham does have a cool style to it and how they film things.




> I really like Fish and Zsasz.  They make the show less police drama and more comic-booky.


Yeah, and I thought this week's had a very comic book/Gothic quality to it that I enjoyed. It was obviously Gotham and not just a CSI episode.
I really enjoyed it. While it's a dark show it doesn't seem to run away from it's pulp roots.




> Man. What wasn't there to like this episode?


I got to admit I dug everything about it. The style, the soap, the intrigue.

And Baby Bats balls finally dropped and he's about to go to town on Wayne Enterprises. 




> My understanding was that his identity would be more ambiguous.


I suppose it was to get people buzzing, he could still be just another suspect as I assume he'll be in jail for some time.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Maybe he'll be found incompetent for trial and sent to Arkham? He could escape I guess. Who knows?

----------


## zwixxx

> My understanding was that his identity would be more ambiguous.


I thought they planned to bring on a bunch of could-bes over the series and not nail down the actual lil-Joker's identity at all.

----------


## ispacehead

> I thought they planned to bring on a bunch of could-bes ...


That was one interpretation of Heller's quote from last September when the show got going.




> Interviewer: Will some of the possibilities for The Joker be more obvious than others?
> 
> HELLER:  Yes.  Some of them will be schmuck bait for idiots, and others will be ones that only deep-thinking DC afficionados will even understand where we’re going.  And then, hopefully we’ll pull the rug out.


He actually says prior to that in the interview that Joker would be an actual character and that they would go to great lengths to make him a believable character rather than an immediate diabolical menace.

He also said this:




> Interviewer: Obviously, the question that everybody has about the show is, when will we see The Joker, and you’ve talked about wanting to establish a possible Joker, in every episode.  Why did you decide to take that route with that character? And will we see someone who we’ll definitely know to be The Joker, by the end of the season?
> 
> HELLER:  No, not definitely.  One of the advantages of series TV is that you can change your mind and plan things as you go.


So maybe it was an idea they toyed with and discarded. Network pressure maybe?

I wouldn't have been against multiple characters playing possible future Jokers if it was done right.

----------


## Abishai100

*Blackbeard Premonitions*


The recent introduction on "Gotham" (Fox TV) of the colorful Graysons in a Gotham City simmering with strangeness parallels the relevant plot investment Christopher Nolan makes in his bright "Batman Begins" (2005) --- an unusual blue flower (sought by Ra's al Ghul) representing the desire for human nature perception.

The premonitions of the Joker too suggest that the writers of "Gotham" (Fox TV) seek to use upcoming villain presentations (i.e., Red Hood) to re-cast an early Gotham City as a modern age urbanization-paranoia symbol of 'raggedy anticipation.'

I'm excited to see Colm Feore's performance and how he will fit into the show.

So far, I like how "Gotham" (Fox TV) is making me feel that the Batman (DC Comics) empire represents a modernized American version of Sherlock Holmes mixed with pirate-toned folk tales (i.e., Blackbeard).


: )

----------


## Nick Miller

The first 3 episodes were the best ones.

But I can see how some have been satisfied. 

Penguin has been getting worse and worse, same with Fish and the gangsters.

Looks like they are not happy with Cam, since they have basically written out her Baby Selina.
Bruce is awesome (Alfred, just awful)
Riddler is awesome
Bullock is awesome

Gordon, major disappoint. Ben McKensie just doesnt feel, look, or act like the Jim we know. He's just an ok,actor imo.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> The first 3 episodes were the best ones.
> 
> But I can see how some have been satisfied. 
> 
> Penguin has been getting worse and worse, same with Fish and the gangsters.
> 
> Looks like they are not happy with Cam, since they have basically written out her Baby Selina.
> Bruce is awesome (Alfred, just awful)
> Riddler is awesome
> ...


Well, this is before the Gordon we know  :Wink:  

And I don't read they are unhappy with Cam's Selena as she showed up again and will be around in the next ep too. All the characters go through times of use and being set on  shelf, it's a side effect of having such a large cast.

I actually like Fish more using her wits than just inside her club and it's cool seeing Penguin starting out to be the lounge owner he is in the comics. 




> So maybe it was an idea they toyed with and discarded. Network pressure maybe?


I don't know, I thought I read he felt audiences wanted more of an answer and less teasing but maybe he just hit on an idea and then with Cameron's performance they just figured he should be it. 

_Although executive producer Bruno Heller initially planned to wait a while to introduce Batman's most famous nemesis, he now says that viewers will actually get a glimpse before the end of the first season. "We've said you're going to be waiting a bit longer for it, but this is America -- nobody wants to wait," Heller tells TVGuide.com with a laugh. "So, we will scratch the surface of that story, yes. But just scratch it -- a little tap on the door."_
http://www.tvguide.com/news/mega-buzz-gotham-the-joker/

I think it was more than a scratch, but hey.

Edit: Beantownbrown posted this in the TV-Film forum
http://www.eonline.com/news/625629/i...oss-weighs-in/
_I know you've been dropping little fun Easter Eggs here and there for the Joker so why did you decide to start introducing this storyline now?
It just seemed like the right moment in the season to, as the season is moving towards its conclusion and as we are setting up for next season, this just seemed like the right moment. Early on, it would have been a mistake. We had other stories to tell and we wanted this season to be about the emergence of the Penguin and Gordon's rise. This appearance of Cameron is the beginning of the third act that will lead us toward the next chapter._

----------


## Agent Z

Was I the only one who found Leslie's enthusiasm for the case a little weird? Also the argument about whether or not the psychic was for real reminded me of a plot in the Big Bang Theory.  

Did Gotham accidentally date the show with this episode, they talked about the feud being as old as WWI which ended in 1918 or 1919 depending on how you see it. And the families had been fighting for three generations, which is normally measured in 25 years (although 20 years was used as well at one point) so the show could be set as late as 1994 or as early as 1979. Though the texting and cell phone usage would tend to put it in the 1990's IMO.

----------


## ispacehead

> The first 3 episodes were the best ones.


I think the show has gotten better as the players become more comfortable with their roles. There were a couple awkward scenes in episode one.




> Gordon, major disappoint. Ben McKensie just doesnt feel, look, or act like the Jim we know. He's just an ok,actor imo.


I couldn't disagree more. I love his performance. His banal comments are the best. "Any kind of pie."

I love his no nonsense attitude and unflinching disregard for what has become standard procedure in Gotham.

He is in every way Jim Gordon for me.




> I don't know, I thought I read he felt audiences wanted more of an answer and less teasing but maybe he just hit on an idea and then with Cameron's performance they just figured he should be it.


His early comments in interview always made me feel like their would be one actual actor playing the part. I think a lot of the "multiple jokers" stuff got kinda taken out of context and blown out of proportion. 

I actually said so to somebody here at the time.




> Heller tells TVGuide.com with a laugh. "So, we will scratch the surface of that story, yes. But just scratch it -- a little tap on the door."
> 
> I think it was more than a scratch, but hey.


You and me both.




> Was I the only one who found Leslie's enthusiasm for the case a little weird?


I thought it was cute.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

"Oh COME ON, Jim!"

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Was I the only one who found Leslie's enthusiasm for the case a little weird?


I find nothing that woman does as weird. Just putting that down on the record.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godzilla2099

What I don't get about this episode is that why did the old blind guy give the clue that led to Gerome's Arrest if he cared about his son.

If he kept his mouth shut the murder wouldn't have been solved

----------


## ispacehead

> What I don't get about this episode is that why did the old blind guy give the clue that led to Gerome's Arrest if he cared about his son.
> 
> If he kept his mouth shut the murder wouldn't have been solved


I get what you're saying but most criminals are hardly genius material. Sicero wasn't even really a criminal. More like an unwitting accomplice. And Jerome? Let's face, it...deep down he probably didn't really care if he got caught.

After Lila's body was discovered Sicero probably felt like they needed to give the cops something to throw off the scent, which of course led to their capture because James Gordon is smarter than he is.

The cute part is that Leslie helped solve the case by believing in the mumbo jumbo.

I thought it was strange that Gordon had no interest in Sicero's message simply because he was a psychic. 

My first thought would have been: SUSPECT.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> Tonight's episode was a mess, and it really pointed up the limitations of the "procedural prequel" format. As soon as they teased that the kid might be the Joker, it set him up as the prime suspect and we're left waiting for the last 10 minutes to see what will either be exactly what we're expecting or a disappointment. The actor did a good job in the end, but it made the preceding 45 minutes feel like filler -- just something to pass the time until the reveal.


I thought they were going to end up turning this into a two parter.  John and Mary go from bickering to the reveal they are lovers to engaged SUPER quick, and the promos really spoiled Jerome's big scene which happened late in the episode.




> It really was a mess. I also do not like this rendition of Leslie Thomkins so far. Her attitude towards the psychic was silly in my opinion.


Silly in Jim's opinion too, but like she said, people of science can believe in the unexplainable as well.  Also, this is a DC property.  I'm not saying we should have Constantine level weirdness all the time, but stuff like psychics, the Viper/Venom, Crane's drug...it's nice to be reminded of that every now and then.  This shouldn't be as restricted and down to earth like Nolan's Batman was.




> Oswald's was a bit over the top bad, but I guess this thing with Butch should be fun.


I felt SO bad for Butch!  Scared too, really.  Almost scared like Penguin was, but more like "What happened to that poor guy's mind?!"  Creepiest dance I've ever seen on network TV.




> Good episode overall but I just can't see what they are doing with Bruce or the other kids on this show.


I'm sure there'll be future plots for Selina, but there's already plenty for Bruce to do.  Investigating his parents' murder, taking back his company, and continuing to train his mind and body, of course.




> It's interesting that they came right out and called this character Joker in the commercial spot.


Did they?  I thought they were like "You've seen the Penguin, the Riddler, and the next villain...is no joke".  Y'know, vague stuff.




> What I don't get about this episode is that why did the old blind guy give the clue that led to Gerome's Arrest if he cared about his son.


What I don't get is what was up with that kid in the coonskin cap leading him around.  Maybe THAT KID is going to be the Joker.




> I thought it was strange that Gordon had no interest in Sicero's message simply because he was a psychic. 
> 
> My first thought would have been: SUSPECT.


His reasoning made sense to me.  He didn't want Cicero to be able to say he's consulting on a case for the Gotham PD.  Gordon already had plenty of suspects by that point.

----------


## Godzilla2099

Overall, I thought the episode was great.  It had some strong points but its share of weak ones too:

_What I Liked_

Jerome:  When I first heard of a possible Joker making an appearance I thought it was going to be a bad idea all around.  However, after seeing his performance, I was completely wrong.  This young actor nailed it so perfectly.  The look.  Tone.  Atmosphere.  Brilliant Performance.  He stole the show.

Bruce and Alfred:  Their chemistry is amazing.  Young Bruce is growing strong and it feels organic.  The members at the board meeting was expecting some kid but he showed them he means business.

Gordon and Leslie:  Leslie is a breath of fresh air.  To me, she's the strong female lead this show has been lacking.  What I like about her is that she's 'Natural.'  No over the top acting.  She doesn't have to try hard to look good or confident.  Everything comes off as organic.  Her character also challenges Gordon in a good way too.  Pointing out strengths and flaws.  Really hoping she stays in the picture

_Didn't Like:_

Penguin:  Surprise here because I always credit Penguin and Harvey's Character for having the best performance on the show but he fell flat.  I didn't like his scenes and I found them too over the top.

Fish Mooney:  No surprise here.  Jada is a gorgeous woman with a strong presence, but her acting (trying too hard) and story can't grab my interest in the character.  

Barbara and the Sirens:  Pointless.  That's all I can say.  Babs leaves Jim because she feels like his cop life is too dangerous, cheats on him with another cop (very happy Montoya has been missing) returns home, finds a few homeless girls taking shelter there, and simply asks them for fashion tips?  All I can say is wtf?

----------


## signalman112

I highly DOUBT that the son of the snake dancer will become the Joker.
He was nothing more then a red herring.

Anyone else think Oswald face looked weird?  Very reddy, like he has measles.

----------


## Abishai100

*Crime CB*


Since "Gotham" (Fox TV) is a modern media symbol of urbanization-paranoia themed art, we can think of it perhaps as a dramatized and 'salted' TV-adapted version of Ron Howard's bright arson-management themed Hollywood (USA) movie "Backdraft" (1991).

The Bat-villains who represent arson (a modern crime associated with urban sprawl and mischief-profit insurance scams) best are perhaps the Joker, Two-Face, and Mad Hatter.

You want to portray ideas about human traffic catalyzed moral maladies, which is why I really liked the hallucination-exploratory episode, "The Scarecrow" (February 9).



 :EEK!: 

Backdraft (Film)

city1.jpg

----------


## devil leonx

> Was I the only one who found Leslie's enthusiasm for the case a little weird? Also the argument about whether or not the psychic was for real reminded me of a plot in the Big Bang Theory.  
> 
> Did Gotham accidentally date the show with this episode, they talked about the feud being as old as WWI which ended in 1918 or 1919 depending on how you see it. And the families had been fighting for three generations, which is normally measured in 25 years (although 20 years was used as well at one point) so the show could be set as late as 1994 or as early as 1979. Though the texting and cell phone usage would tend to put it in the 1990's IMO.


No I found Leslie strange fascination with magic of all things a came out of no where...does because of Morena is such a talented actress..she makes it work..mostly..

----------


## comiccraze

i just wish they wouldve gave cameron monaghan a different background. After all the critics talk FOX will not use his character which is sad because i think he was great.

----------


## Panfoot

The fish mooney sub-plot going on right now went from boring to off the rails in a single glorious moment.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Episode 17 "Red Hood"  The Red Hood gang and Dollmaker.  Great to see both David O'Hara and Jeffrey Combs show up.  I like getting a window into Alfred's past and am  interested in seeing more of Bruce's training.  Fish gouging her own eye out with a spoon was just over the top ridiculous even for this show.  I was not expecting Reggie to stab Alfred or the reveal that Reggie was working for the Wayne Enterprise board of directors.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

I've actually been enjoying the show, but the Fish Mooney scene will surely be up for The Soup's Clip of the Year. I understand why they brought Jada Smith on originally, but her whole subplot is absurd. That was just bad

----------


## Godzilla2099

"I need a Danish"

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Loved Selina's comeback to Barb advising her to use her looks as a weapon. Gotham writers turned that cliche on its head and basically said "f*** you to nu52's treatment of Cats.

----------


## Jorriss

What was Fish thinking? Did she actually think she had any power in this position?

I like Bruce on the show but practically speaking I feel like he should go begin his training soon.

----------


## The Kid

This was a damn good episode. Lot of twists and surprising moments
I love the show and I hope it has a long run but I have an idea for a future Batman show I'm surprised they've never done. 

Why not make a show about Bruce when he's out training for however many years he's gone? He can face off against Ra's, team up with Zatanna, and travel all over the DCU before actually becoming Batman.

----------


## ispacehead

Anybody else notice that the first Red Hood had Mr J's animated series haircut?

MrJ.jpg

Up til he got shot in the heart I thought we might have a second Joker candidate.

Nice laugh.

----------


## colossus34

> I've actually been enjoying the show, but the Fish Mooney scene will surely be up for The Soup's Clip of the Year. I understand why they brought Jada Smith on originally, but her whole subplot is absurd. That was just bad


Her entire character is absurd at this point what purpose does she serve now? She should have been killed off 5 episodes ago by Penguin. I cringe every second she's on.

----------


## Godzilla2099

While this show leaves me wanting more when it ends, some stories I really want to know what happens next while others I could care less if its never touched on again.

Gordon/Bullock and Bruce/Alfred were the ones that kept my attention pasted.  I had a feeling Wayne Enterprises was behind the attack.  

Barbara/Sirens I find completely irrelevant, although I did smile at Selina's comeback line.  With Fish, its just too over the top and frankly, I just don't care.  With Harvey, he didn't do a fraction of the crazy things Fish did but I find him far more interesting because he's more organic.  If I DVR'd it, I'd have fast forward those scenes.  Sadly, I also found Penguin's Scenes bland too.

----------


## ABH

Overall, I thought it was a great episode, though it's funny how this show can be so good and so bad, at the same time.

Everything with Bruce, Alfred, and his friend (including the Wayne Enterprises bit) -- great.
The Red Hood gang, with Gordon and Bullock investigating -- really good.

Barbara, Selina and Ivy -- bleh. boring.
Fish -- over it. Clever use of a spoon, but one shock moment doesn't add much.

And I'm sorry to say the Penguin is beginning to bore me too.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Loved Selina's comeback to Barb advising her to use her looks as a weapon. Gotham writers turned that cliche on its head and basically said "f*** you to nu52's treatment of Cats.


It was a standard bit of "wisdom" in comics years before the DCnU was set up in order to rationalize the skimpy outfits.

----------


## ispacehead

> Overall, I thought it was a great episode, though it's funny how this show can be so good and so bad, at the same time.


I'm still really enjoying it, but I hear what you're saying about Penguin. I have a feeling things won't stay quiet for long.

This episode was the first time I actually enjoyed Barbara's scenes more than Fish's. 

I was okay with Fish when I expected her to get offed by Oswald, but now that she's off on her own, her plot is meandering. As the "made for tv" character, she should work as a foil to other plots rather than going off on her own. The spoon deal was just over the top.

The tragic tale of the first Red Hood Gang was pretty wonderful though, and Alfred's old buddy was an entertaining direction.

For me, the good still outweighs the bad pretty heavily.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Vague initial promise of Hugo Strange in fish's storyline and ivy's presence made me not fast forward through those scenes this time. Still  kinda bad tho. especially since Selina didn't ACTUALLY finally put something new on. Red Hood plot was really good. bruce took several crucial steps this episodes.

----------


## zwixxx

> Why not make a show about Bruce when he's out training for however many years he's gone? He can face off against Ra's, team up with Zatanna, and travel all over the DCU before actually becoming Batman.


That's was my idea too.  :Smile:  Series would start with Bruce waving goodbye to Alfred, and as it progressed we'd see him learning various skills from various masters as he journeys around the world. We'd also see Gordon back in Gotham battling a wide variety of villains, with a big bunch being recognizable fledgling versions of Batman's foes, and follow his rise through the rank to Commisioner.
And the series finale would see Bruce return to Gotham, take back control of Wayne Enterprises and the final shot possibly being him sat by the fire, on a rainy night and a bat comes crashing through the window.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> What was Fish thinking? Did she actually think she had any power in this position?
> 
> I like Bruce on the show but practically speaking I feel like he should go begin his training soon.


Bruce is training, that's what all his running and fighting is. It's basic now but it's a start. 

Fish always has a third option, like Captain Kirk. Hers are more messy but she had the power to kill a guy Dollmaker wanted and she can sacrifice an eye so he can't have both. She has power.

----------


## tabo61

I liked how anyone who wore that red hood went a little crazy

----------


## ispacehead

> Why not make a show about Bruce when he's out training for however many years he's gone?


Pretty sure this was the rejected premise of a show from a few years back. 

I'm much happier with the direction taken.

What they've done with Jim Gordon here amazing. It makes him a much more three dimensional character, and is an amazing set up for his first meeting with Batman. I feel like I have a much better picture of the character.

The relationship between Bruce and Alfred is the real gem of the show. Alfred, like Gordon is just so much more completely developed. The show does a great job of depicting the emotional bond between them.

So much of Bruce's formative training is being portrayed so well via the influences of those close to him.

I really don't want to see him travel the world fighting ninjas.

What they've done is so much more relatable. 




> Fish always has a third option, like Captain Kirk. Hers are more messy but she had the power to kill a guy Dollmaker wanted and she can sacrifice an eye so he can't have both. She has power.


I liked her more when she was in Gotham. I doubt she'll be gone long, but the longer she is, the more we stray from the show's premise.

I don't know that Duhlmacher is that compelling of a character to keep this storyline interesting.

----------


## Nick Miller

> Loved Selina's comeback to Barb advising her to use her looks as a weapon. Gotham writers turned that cliche on its head and basically said "f*** you to nu52's treatment of Cats.


I thought you were pro femme fatale?

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> I thought you were pro femme fatale?


Nu52 Cats isn't a femme fatale. Prior to Genevieve, she's actually written more like Barbara Kean (aka pathetic mess). Besides, Selina is too young to femme fatale anyone here and I'd rather they don't rush her into growing up. As it is, I'm really enjoying her portrayal as a teen (complete with rudeness and awkward mannerisms). I've grown to love how she's such a tough smart cookie that can see through people's bullshit. She reminds me very much of Arya from Game of Thrones.

Anyway, despite her being a tomboy now, I have no doubt she'll grow into her destined role when she's good and ready as opposed to being manipulated into it by someone else. She already has Bruce wrapped around her finger. She has natural instincts, that one.

Look at this video. She doesn't need lessons nor expensive hand me downs from Barbara.

----------


## Punisher007

She's what, like 13-14?  She doesn't need to be in "femme fatale" mod yet.  Not only would it strain credulity given her age/background, but it'd just be plain creepy.

Regardless of whether or not he turns out to be THE Joker, can we please bring Jerome back at some point?  He's REALLY good.

----------


## theonetruebatman

This show for me is the equivalent of taking all of your favorite Batman comics and putting them in an oil drum and striking a match. Sure, it might keep you warm for a while and look pretty and all your favorite characters are together. But then you have to remember it's burning and all fires have to go out. The way they are burning through storylines haphazardly by the end of season two there isn't going to be any story to tell that isn't full of regurgitated dialogue and recycled storylines. 

This show should have been a mob vs cop show. We certainly deserve a better mob storyline (aside from the the amazing Penguin portrayal) than we are getting with the hammy Fish Mooney. Where are characters like Rupert Thorne? Or if you really wanted to make it fun bring in Carl Grissom as a nod back to Batman 1989. Give us the 5 families of Gotham instead of unbelievable motivations for villains that shouldn't be seen for at least another 9 seasons.

----------


## Punisher007

Except that then you have lots of people whining about how there needs to be more Batman stuff in it.  They're going to get slammed no matter what they do.

----------


## godisawesome

> She's what, like 13-14?  She doesn't need to be in "femme fatale" mod yet.  Not only would it strain credulity given her age/background, but it'd just be plain creepy.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not he turns out to be THE Joker, can we please bring Jerome back at some point?  He's REALLY good.


I think they did a good job of making her seem like the pre-teen equivalent to a femme fatale around Bruce. She was using some charisma and flirtation on him, but only because she seems to have a bit of a crush on him and sympathize with his loss. And having Bruce suspect she had ulterior motives in daring him to kiss her was hilarious!

Personally, my biggest problem with the series so far is that they either don't seem to have any solid subplot fans for some of the characters, or they rush through the good ones they have. Selina staying at the Manor and escaping an assassin with Bruce was an engaging and fun storyline. But otherwise, she's basically been making cameo appearances instead of actual storyline developments.

 I really wish they would have built off the idea of her roof-hopping being tied to Bruce's future skill at the job, or his ability to recognize quality merchandise perhaps leading to her expertise in the matter when she grows up. Even now, after she revealed that she didn't see the killer, I think they could do something like this and take their time with it. Setting a slow methodical pace worked great for most of the Penguin's story thus far. I'd love about five or six episodes of Selina teaching Bruce how to navigate Gotham and to understand how life is like for others, and for Bruce to start to develop the empathy that makes him more than a vengeful crusader.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Except that then you have lots of people whining about how there needs to be more Batman stuff in it.  They're going to get slammed no matter what they do.


Yeah, I think they do a good balance of not too much of any one thing. 
A little mob here, a little pre-Bats there. People complain when it's too camp, or too dark or too much of a procedural or not enough Bullock/Gordon, it isn't tied into Batman enough or it's too many callbacks to bat-mythology. 




> Regardless of whether or not he turns out to be THE Joker, can we please bring Jerome back at some point?  He's REALLY good.


I agree, he's pretty compelling and such a good actor.




> I liked her more when she was in Gotham. I doubt she'll be gone long, but the longer she is, the more we stray from the show's premise.
> 
> I don't know that Duhlmacher is that compelling of a character to keep this storyline interesting.


I'm a little grossed by Dollmaker  :Stick Out Tongue:  but yeah I do wonder what their plan for her is. She was tied into Gotham's mob war and now she's separated from everyone else. I would assume they won't off her from afar but I wonder how it's all getting tied up. We know Dollmaker was mentioned early on with the orphans. I dunno.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I want to see more with Penguin and Riddler together.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> What was Fish thinking? Did she actually think she had any power in this position?


Well, she kept them from getting what they wanted and kept herself alive.  She's still dealing with a middle man, though, and he's not going to really risk upsetting the whole system or else Dollmaker will come back really pissed at him.




> Pretty sure this was the rejected premise of a show from a few years back.


I believe it was to be called Bruce Wayne and it evolved into Smallville.  The problem with a Bruce Wayne traveling the Earth show is you can't really have a strong supporting cast in every episode.  Having Harvey Dent be his buddy that eventually goes dark would be harder to fit in every episode than the easy solution Smallville had with Lex Luthor.  Also, Smallville had the idea of using kryptonite to mutate people into having powers so the powered Clark Kent could fight them.  Cooler and more open to various ideas than Bruce always fighting ninjas or gun toting mobsters.  What Gotham is going is good, though, since there is the procedural Gotham PD aspect to it and they aren't afraid to show various skills and gimmicks (notice how Bullock is developing a hatred of guys in masks).  This show has a young Bruce Wayne AND Gotham in it.




> This show for me is the equivalent of taking all of your favorite Batman comics and putting them in an oil drum and striking a match. Sure, it might keep you warm for a while and look pretty and all your favorite characters are together. But then you have to remember it's burning and all fires have to go out. The way they are burning through storylines haphazardly by the end of season two there isn't going to be any story to tell that isn't full of regurgitated dialogue and recycled storylines. 
> 
> This show should have been a mob vs cop show. We certainly deserve a better mob storyline (aside from the the amazing Penguin portrayal) than we are getting with the hammy Fish Mooney. Where are characters like Rupert Thorne? Or if you really wanted to make it fun bring in Carl Grissom as a nod back to Batman 1989. Give us the 5 families of Gotham instead of unbelievable motivations for villains that shouldn't be seen for at least another 9 seasons.


They could easily bring in those other organized crime figures later.  And not all the plots are being burned through quickly.  Not while Eddie is still working for the GCPD, anyway.

----------


## Abishai100

The last episode featuring the bold and barbaric Red Hood Gang intimated at the introduction of the Dollmaker, an eccentric Bat-villain who makes dolls out of the limbs and skins of his human victims, sort of like the iconic American horror film avatar Leatherface from Tobe Hooper's seminal fear-fest themed "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" (1974).

We know that "Gotham" (Fox TV) is presenting pre-Batman stories about a young detective Jim Gordon dealing with a Gotham City seething with criminality and mania and slowly giving rise to future super-villains such as Penguin, Dollmaker, and Poison Ivy.

It's interesting that the writers chose to lump together the Red Hood and Dollmaker in the same episode, and Dollmaker was also hinted at in the episode "Selina Kyle" (09/29/2014) in which two eerie child kidnappers were presumably abducting homeless children from the streets and trying to ship them to Asia (possibly for strange experiments conducted by the Dollmaker).

It does seem that the writers of "Gotham" (Fox TV) are focused on creating an urbanization-paranoia relevant storyboard atmosphere of 'vigilantism hives.'

I'd like to see an episode featuring a mass prison or Arkham breakout which requires Jim Gordon to assist in a massive quarantine assignment (i.e., transporting all registered citizens by truckloads out of the city while securing all exit routes out of the city to prevent the criminals/maniacs from leaving).




 :EEK!: 

Street Justice (TV)

Dollmaker (Batman Wikia)


city-lights.jpg

----------


## PretenderNX01

No squeamish moments this week  :Stick Out Tongue:  Though the rag-doll look of Jefferey Combs was a bit of a shocker. Dr. Dullmacher (sp?) has some really good skills and can do more intracte transplanting that is currently possible. Not that this is the first time Gotham is a little sci-fi like "Venom"




> I want to see more with Penguin and Riddler together.


That would be cool, I was glad to see some more of both of them and it wasn't too crazy. They both tie in Mosley to the main plot.




> Well, she kept them from getting what they wanted and kept herself alive.  She's still dealing with a middle man, though, and he's not going to really risk upsetting the whole system or else Dollmaker will come back really pissed at him.


Yeah, I think the end reveal when she's looking out at the ocean was meant to show she was trying to bide her time until escape but that's going to be a whole lot harder than she thought. I don't think she wanted to be a part of his scam to much, she just wants out. Get in the captor's good graces is one way to survive.





> I believe it was to be called Bruce Wayne and it evolved into Smallville.  The problem with a Bruce Wayne traveling the Earth show is you can't really have a strong supporting cast in every episode.


I guess WB Film wanted Batman to themselves and so WB TV had to let it go but then went on to develop a young Superman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(TV_series)
It too featured a bunch of pre-Batman versions of the villains.




> They could easily bring in those other organized crime figures later.  And not all the plots are being burned through quickly.  Not while Eddie is still working for the GCPD, anyway.


Yeah, we've only got 4 episodes left this season so I don't think the mob war is going away but it could change and that could open doors for newer families like maybe the Thornes or maybe Roland Dagget. They have to save something for season 2.

----------


## Agent Z

what if Gotham is actually a prequel to the 1960s Batman tv series?: http://io9.com/what-if-gotham-is-act...tma-1689145092

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> what if Gotham is actually a prequel to the 1960s Batman tv series?: http://io9.com/what-if-gotham-is-act...tma-1689145092


I'm not seeing it at all. The '60s show was a comedy, while _Gotham_ isn't.

----------


## tabo61

I like how Cobblepot is becoming more ruthless.  What he did to that crooked married couple?  Ouch!!!!

----------


## ispacehead

This week's episode was kinda meh.

The best scenes were the hospital scenes with Alfred, Bruce, Gordon, and Selina I thought.

Fish Mooney's storyline continues to wander further and further from being interesting.

I'd guess she'll be returning to Gotham in Dulmacher's employ. Meh. 

As much as I am enjoying the show, I think their reluctance to kill Fish and Butch is kinda wimpy. Fish seems like she was just created to get skewered by Penguin. When she escaped, Butch should have gotten it.  I understand that it's a comic book style series, but I'd like it if they took an extra page from the Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire. Let's see some fatalities already. Introduce a new criminal element as a foil to Cobblepot's storyline next season.

It does make sense to give Oswald a mentor, as he's obviously pretty green still, but Butch??

Gordon vs Loeb was fun, if not explosively so. Nice to see Gordon's slow progression continue.

Hopefully next week will be a little more exciting.

----------


## Crimson Knight

> No squeamish moments this week  Though the rag-doll look of Jefferey Combs was a bit of a shocker. Dr. Dullmacher (sp?) has some really good skills and can do more intracte transplanting that is currently possible. Not that this is the first time Gotham is a little sci-fi like "Venom"
> 
> 
> That would be cool, I was glad to see some more of both of them and it wasn't too crazy. They both tie in Mosley to the main plot.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think the end reveal when she's looking out at the ocean was meant to show she was trying to bide her time until escape but that's going to be a whole lot harder than she thought. I don't think she wanted to be a part of his scam to much, she just wants out. Get in the captor's good graces is one way to survive.
> 
> 
> ...


For spelling, it's Dulmacher, I believe.

Yeah, besides the stuff with Bruce and Wayne Enterprises, Fish and Dulmacher, Penguin and Butch etc, there's The Ogre coming up as well as whatever comes up amidst this election, the finale, all that.

Still, having to wait until April - month of Game of Thrones, Daredevil, The Messengers, Olympus etc - to see what happens next.

And, ah, it's some painful wait. Least I've got Community, iZombie, The Flash, Supernatural and Arrow in two weeks.

----------


## Abishai100

Well, *Colm Feore* was rather impressive as the Dollmaker, and the continuing development of Fish Mooney is still interesting, although I'm having difficulty connecting her characterization to the overall silhouette of Gotham City.

The introduction of all these villains (Riddler, Penguin, Poison Ivy, Dollmaker, Red Hood, Joker, Scarecrow, etc.) should require the writers to come up with more stories involving the young Bruce Wayne snooping around police files or investigating the maintenance of Arkham Asylum at least.

That's why I keep thinking that a great move for the writers of "Gotham" (Fox TV) would be to introduce *Dr. Harleen Quinzel* (the future Harley Quinn) and present her as a significant character foil in Arkham for the pensive Dr. Leslie Thompkins.





 :EEK!: 

Harleen Quinzel


hq.jpg

thompkins-gordon.jpg

----------


## Venom2099

I just started watching this show....I really wanted to hate it, but after watching it....I am addicted!  Another superhero show without superheroes....it is just damn good!  I keep thinking that in future seasons there will be a batman.....

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I just started watching this show....I really wanted to hate it, but after watching it....I am addicted!  Another superhero show without superheroes....it is just damn good!  I keep thinking that in future seasons there will be a batman.....


Just let yourself love it.  :Cool: 




> what if Gotham is actually a prequel to the 1960s Batman tv series?: http://io9.com/what-if-gotham-is-act...tma-1689145092





> I'm not seeing it at all. The '60s show was a comedy, while _Gotham_ isn't.


I think it may be an attempt at talking smack about Gotham in that it's kinda wacky even with how dark it is. I'd argue a prequel to Burton's Batman would be more likely that the 66 series.

Unless they're trying to say it's like Bates Motel being a modern prequel to Psycho, the vintage wine they drank was from 1966 so it can't literally be. 




> Fish seems like she was just created to get skewered by Penguin. When she escaped, Butch should have gotten it.  I understand that it's a comic book style series, but I'd like it if they took an extra page from the Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire. Let's see some fatalities already. Introduce a new criminal element as a foil to Cobblepot's storyline next season.


Well we've still got some time left this season but I think people were to quick to assume Fish was made to die. 

And we did see a couple of deaths in the pilot  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I think it may be an attempt at talking smack about Gotham in that it's kinda wacky even with how dark it is. I'd argue a prequel to Burton's Batman would be more likely that the 66 series.


That I can see a lot more easily than the old TV show.

----------


## ispacehead

> what if Gotham is actually a prequel to the 1960s Batman tv series?


They seem to be drawing from several wells.




> Well we've still got some time left this season but I think people were to quick to assume Fish was made to die.


That seems pretty accurate.




> And we did see a couple of deaths in the pilot


We did. And Crane killed a few people as well, just nobody important.

That was one of the thrilling things about both of the shows I mentioned. Nobody was really safe.

A good death can be a wonderful thing.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Gordon had no problem trading in one Harvey for another.  That's cool he can trust Dent, though, and Bullock came to their rescue, which was nice.




> No squeamish moments this week  Though the rag-doll look of Jefferey Combs was a bit of a shocker. Dr. Dullmacher (sp?) has some really good skills and can do more intracte transplanting that is currently possible.


Yeah, that was like something out of Reanimator.  Very freaky!  Dulmacher was fun, and fleshed out more than the one on Arrow.  But that's because I guess they have a little arc for him here, especially since Fish ain't escaping that easily.




> what if Gotham is actually a prequel to the 1960s Batman tv series?: http://io9.com/what-if-gotham-is-act...tma-1689145092


It can't be because in the 1960's series Edward Nygma is a high school dropout, and on Gotham, he clearly has some kind of advanced degree.  Plus, ya know, billions of other reasons.

----------


## Guy1

> That was one of the thrilling things about both of the shows I mentioned. Nobody was really safe.
> 
> A good death can be a wonderful thing.





 :Wink:

----------


## signalman112

Anyone else thing that Oswald hair is getting WEIRDER?
That is one odd hair style.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Anyone else thing that Oswald hair is getting WEIRDER?
> That is one odd hair style.


Maybe it's a metaphor for how his life is getting out of control  :Wink:

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Well we've still got some time left this season but I think people were to quick to assume Fish was made to die.





> That seems pretty accurate.


Well, I don't know what's going to happen to Fish but apparently Jada told "Kelly&Michael" 
*spoilers:*
that she won't be coming back for the second season and was just on a one year contract
*end of spoilers*
Again, possible spoilers if you haven't heard it elsewhere but http://youtu.be/95h9xzLrDdo?t=5m46s

----------


## BatGlamorous

The way she phrased it at the end, I'm inclined to think that Fish *spoilers:*
is written out instead of killed off. It's a shame though, I wanted Selina to have at least some interaction with Fish considering how hard she channels the Eartha Kitt CW. But then again, the season's not over yet.  :Big Grin: 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## LoganAlpha30X33

> I just started watching this show....I really wanted to hate it, but after watching it....I am addicted!  Another superhero show without superheroes....it is just damn good!  I keep thinking that in future seasons there will be a batman.....


The producers said that Batman won't show up until the very end of the show, like the show's final episode and final scene, basically Gotham runs the time before Bruce's first night out as Batman...

----------


## Godzilla2099

Possible Huge Spoiler 

Click Here

----------


## ispacehead

> Again, possible spoilers if you haven't heard it elsewhere but http://youtu.be/95h9xzLrDdo?t=5m46s


Thanks for not spoiling it. It popped up on my facebook feed too, so there was no avoiding it.

Maybe I'll get my wish after all.  :Smile:

----------


## PretenderNX01

Yeah I was trying not to spoil anything, got a post from ComicBookMovie in my feed since it mentioned Gotham and I've liked Gotham on Facebook. Mind you I record Kelly and Michael and watch them at the end of the day so I would have seen it then but I tried not to spoil anything for anyone else and she does try to be vague. 




> The way she phrased it at the end, I'm inclined to think that Fish *spoilers:*
> is written out instead of killed off. It's a shame though, I wanted Selina to have at least some interaction with Fish considering how hard she channels the Eartha Kitt CW. But then again, the season's not over yet. 
> *end of spoilers*


Yeah at least something between those two. *spoilers:*
If she's written out and not killed then maybe it could happen in future seasons after Selena is a bit older and needing some sort of guidance. I thought how Fish turned Liza into a weapon could have been something she could have done with Selena which would make more sense than Barbara saying looks can be a weapon. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## colossus34

> Possible Huge Spoiler 
> 
> Click Here


How is this a "huge" spoiler?? People have been saying she should have been killed off soon as Penguin returned to Gotham mid season. Her entire presence is redundant and quite frankly makes cobblepot look inept if she's around any longer. Not to mention she's been quite the decisive character on the show, some people love the over the top camp, most, myself included find it to be cringeworthy and misplaced. Glad she's getting the boot.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

I loved Her Royal Hamminess. She fit right in to the tone of this show.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I loved Her Royal Hamminess. She fit right in to the tone of this show.


Fish was a good embodiment of the show, harsh but still tongue-in-cheek. It's gritty and violent but with style and it serious but without taking itself too seriously.




> Not to mention she's been quite the decisive character on the show, some people love the over the top camp, most, myself included find it to be cringeworthy and misplaced.


I love how people declare themselves to be "most" when they aren't in with the majority on this thread, in other threads, in Facebook groups or anything. But haters always think they're in with the most.

----------


## Abishai100

The last episode featuring the deranged villain the Dollmaker really made me think about how "Gotham" (Fox TV) is focusing on themes relevant to the modern age --- profiteerism, crime syndicates, mad science, etc.

As we know from the Batman comics, the Dollmaker makes 'dolls' out of the limbs and skin of his victims.  This unusual psychopath reflects our anxieties about 'actualizing ambitions' and 'acting out' on our 'awe.'

So far, Colm Feore is very effective in this role.




 :EEK!: 

Dollmaker (Wikipedia)



feore.jpg

----------


## Venom2099

> The producers said that Batman won't show up until the very end of the show, like the show's final episode and final scene, basically Gotham runs the time before Bruce's first night out as Batman...


Then they can start a brand new show starring that batman....because an ending like that would be a pretty shitty ending....We all know that longer run shows get different producers that often change course throughout the show.

----------


## ispacehead

> Fish was a good embodiment of the show, harsh but still tongue-in-cheek. It's gritty and violent but with style and it serious but without taking itself too seriously.


Couldn't agree more. It will be interesting to see what they do to fill the void next season.

There are obviously plenty of characters to work with, but it's always nice to start a new season with a fresh face and a new deadly scenario.




> Then they can start a brand new show starring that batman....because an ending like that would be a pretty shitty ending....


I don't expect to see Batman in this show, and I don't expect the show's timeline to ever approach that moment. 

Maybe they'll end it with Bruce leaving Gotham.

That makes sense. 




> We all know that longer run shows get different producers that often change course throughout the show.


Oh...You mean shows like the Simpsons, the Sopranos, Cheers, Mash, South Park, Wonder Years, or Six Feet Under?

Uh....wait, no that's not right.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Batman belongs strictly to the silver screen in live-action mode as long as he stays profitable, so I don't really understand anybody actually thinking there should be a show featuring him on television. Why have him in the minor leagues when he's already a major leaguer? IOW, _Gotham_'s current path is the right one, IMO.

----------


## Abishai100

I think this show is now in a great position to hoist the Red Hood Gang in a position of serious importance.

That would be a great writing decision, since, as we know from the Batman (DC Comics) comics themselves that the Red Hood Gang is an iconic representation of the 'menacing criminality' of Gotham City.

Remember that in "The Killing Joke" (Alan Moore/Brian Bolland) storyboard, the penultimate maniacal Batman nemesis, the Joker, got his start working as a leader of the radical Red Hood Gang.

How much attention "Gotham" (Fox TV) gives to the young Jim Gordon investigating the activities of the Red Hood Gang will illuminate how the show presents the sort of 'vigilantism vertigo' representative of the 'urbanization seriousness' of the overall Dark Knight story-arc.



 :EEK!:

----------


## devil leonx

> Anyone else thing that Oswald hair is getting WEIRDER?
> That is one odd hair style.


Indeed I notice that too, I think they just need to pick one consistent hair style and stick with it!

----------


## brucekent12

Is there a possibility that Fish could go out of town for some reason at the end of the season, then come back the middle of nex season recast?

----------


## ispacehead

Heck, anything's possible.

Considering that she's with Dulmacher now, he might give her a complete makeover, eliminating the need to keep Jada onboard while still utilizing the character.

I'm still hoping for a proper finish.

Oswald still owes her.

----------


## Venom2099

> I think this show is now in a great position to hoist the Red Hood Gang in a position of serious importance.
> 
> That would be a great writing decision, since, as we know from the Batman (DC Comics) comics themselves that the Red Hood Gang is an iconic representation of the 'menacing criminality' of Gotham City.
> 
> Remember that in "The Killing Joke" (Alan Moore/Brian Bolland) storyboard, the penultimate maniacal Batman nemesis, the Joker, got his start working as a leader of the radical Red Hood Gang.
> 
> How much attention "Gotham" (Fox TV) gives to the young Jim Gordon investigating the activities of the Red Hood Gang will illuminate how the show presents the sort of 'vigilantism vertigo' representative of the 'urbanization seriousness' of the overall Dark Knight story-arc.


HOW????  They are all dead.  I guess a copycat....or the guy who picked up the hood at the end.

----------


## devil leonx

I wanted to bring up the last episode that aired, I believe called " Everyone has a cobblepot", I believe this was perhaps one of the first great episode's of Gotham. While the show has had good eps but bad ones too,this episode was the first IMO to have a good consistent  tone throughout and the ep did not jump to many characters . i think this ep would be a good blue print for Gotham henceforth , I will say Bruce was barely present in this episode which is not to say his story has been bad but it just happened to be that way.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I hope Penguin kills off Fish in the Season 1 finale and Edward starts to turn bad (arrogance a plus!)

----------


## MentalManipulator

I like the show but I would love it more if in season two they fast forwarded like eight years in the future so we could have teenage cat, bat and ivy

----------


## Abishai100

*Red Hood Street Signs*



The Red Hood Gang is very important in the overall story geometries surrounding Gotham City and its seething mania (and corruption).

We've heard of the story of the nefarious Joker having his criminal origins with the Red Hood Gang, and "Gotham" (Fox TV) introduced the gang as a band of clever radical bank robbers.

Maybe the Red Hood Gang is not as frightenting to Gothamites as Scarecrow, but certainly, it creates eye-catching crime stories.




 :EEK!: 

Red Hood

red-hood.jpg

----------


## ispacehead

> HOW????  They are all dead.  I guess a copycat....or the guy who picked up the hood at the end.


Like Gordon said. Anybody can be the Hood.

We're left with the notion that someone else will use the gimmick down the line.

I doubt we'll see it in the show, but perhaps....

That was only the *beginning* of the story.

----------


## Abishai100

"Gotham" (Fox TV) reveals the sort of new age arts investment in modern American urbanization-paranoia related theme-parallels to England's traffic-paranoia Jack the Ripper stories that make Batman (DC Comics) America's version of Sherlock Holmes and the young Jim Gordon on "Gotham" (Fox TV) America's version of Hercule Poirot.

That's why I'm interested in stories about the young detective Jim Gordon investigating the infiltrations in urban infrastructure perpetrated by the shocking Red Hood Gang.

The world of Batman (DC Comics) features criminally insane modern networking issues related super-terrorists such as the fiendish Poison Ivy, an eco-terrorist who makes strange anti-urbanization schemes involving rainbows appearing after manmade pollution-created acid rain.  So far, the presentation of the young Ivy Pepper, the childhood version of the future Poison Ivy, on "Gotham" (Fox TV) reveals some of the 'crime gothika' themes popular in modern art.

I want more of this show, and more Red Hood Gang, Scarecrow, Joker etc.  The presentation of lesser-known intriguing Gotham City villains such as the Dollmaker (portrayed by the gifted Colm Feore) seems to be getting great momentum in recent storyboards on "Gotham" (Fox TV).

*Venom2099*, even though the 'original' members of the first Red Hood Gang did die on "Gotham" (Fox TV), the writers deciding to have a mysterious unnamed young male pick up the red hood mask off the streets with a gleam of curiosity in his eye (at the end of the episode) seems to suggest that the writers may opt to keep the 'spirit' of the Red Hood Gang under close 'psycho-sociological' investigation, sort of similar to how they write about many different kinds of people (such as the Joker) working as 'rotational' members of the Red Hood Gang in the actual Batman-related comics.





 :EEK!: 

Hercule Poirot


city-line.jpg

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I like the show but I would love it more if in season two they fast forwarded like eight years in the future so we could have teenage cat, bat and ivy


Well 8 years would be past teenage for Cat and I think for Bats too.

Just looked it up, David Mazous turned 14 on  February 19th. So he is teenage  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Abishai100

The presentation of the Red Hood Gang on "Gotham" (Fox TV) was very entertaining.

Why is that?  Is it because as a society we're fascinated by bank robbers and the tedium of bureaucracy and everyday labors (i.e., finance, employment, etc.)?

How do I feel about the young detective Jim Gordon 'assessing' the impact and sinister value of the likes of the Red Hood Gang?

I kind of feel eerily comforted by the young Catwoman befriending the young Bruce Wayne...it's a nice premonition of a future Dark Knight wrestling with the Red Hood Gang without the obstacles of 'sentimental crusades.'

I'd like to see more thematics about Red Hood types of Gotham corruption.  At the very least, it will entertain my normal anxieties about 'death and taxes.'

Remember that James Bond film about Fort Knox?




 :EEK!: 

Goldfinger

red-hood.jpg

----------


## Abishai100

I'm thinking these last series of episodes of "Gotham" (Fox TV) for this season (starting in April) could draw enough critical and ratings popularity to warrant more seasons, seasons that could offer us the introduction of a young Ra's al Ghul (possibly portrayed by someone like David Duchovny).

I'm of the mind that continuing development of the interaction between the young detective Jim Gordon and the young Edward Nygma (the future Riddler) on "Gotham" (Fox TV) will enhance the show's focus on police department bureaucracy, and the continuing development of Red Hood Gang themes (there was that nice allusion to its legacy following the death of the original members) will enhance the show's focus on city activity psychology.




 :EEK!: 

Dark City (1998 Film)


darkcity.jpg

----------


## PretenderNX01

Gotham's back and setting up it's final arc of the season.

We got a bit more into Bruce's investigation abilities and Cat...well one could argue he was after them so what she did was self-defense but it still plays into a gray area that Catwoman is known for. 

I love that Fish manages to paint her nails to match her outfit even on The Island of Dr Dollmaker.  I'm curious about why she chose the particular prisoners to escape with.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Gotham's back and setting up it's final arc of the season.
> 
> We got a bit more into Bruce's investigation abilities and Cat...well one could argue he was after them so what she did was self-defense but it still plays into a gray area that Catwoman is known for. 
> 
> I love that Fish manages to paint her nails to match her outfit even on The Island of Dr Dollmaker.  I'm curious about why she chose the particular prisoners to escape with.


Probably cause she's been working to earn their loyalty and they have little else to go. The big thugs could be selfsufficent off the island and go their own ways.

Either way, when Fish is in the "last time" bit, I groan. She's overstayed her welcome. Disappointed that the toughening up off Bruce just asn't kicked in yet, he still has a shaky voice when talking. Did notice that the show seems to have doubled down on the more oldfashioned aestetic, the flashbacks ending like old film.

----------


## heyevaxx

I'm glad Gotham is back, if only for a month.

The Bad: The Ogre flashbacks. I didn't care at all about this. I knew the woman would die. I knew he was the killer. I had no interest in seeing her getting picked up, seduced, enslaved, tortured and killed. None. I wish the writers just focused on established characters and plots that I'm still trying to unravel.

The Good: Still lovin' the Gordon/Bullock dynamic, it's still enjoyable after 19 episodes. I think it's a testament to the actors that Bullock trying to dial Jim down still seems fresh, compelling. Ed was great in his little bit.

The Fish: though I know she's not back for season 2, I'm really enjoying Fish's island story. Kinda wish she did a quick kill on the Dollmaker when he was lying on the ground but I guess the writers want him for later. BTW, my hunch is she goes with the sick/losers and not the thugs because the writers don't want her to be completely unsympathetic. And in the show's reality, the thugs were better decoys and maybe harder for her to handle if she escaped with them.

The Batkids: I really liked Bruce with Gordon and Alfred. He's angry and torn up about Alfie and is desperate to help. Cat helping Bruce was great, they have a good chemistry. And their confrontation with Reggie ... wow! Cats can be unpredictable and dangerous.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Alfred, you're killing us!  Please pay more attention to your health!




> The Bad: The Ogre flashbacks. I didn't care at all about this. I knew the woman would die. I knew he was the killer. I had no interest in seeing her getting picked up, seduced, enslaved, tortured and killed. None. I wish the writers just focused on established characters and plots that I'm still trying to unravel.


I thought there was going to be some kind of twist, maybe she did run away, to explain why she was found the way she was.  But no, it was pretty straightforward, so we didn't really need the flashbacks, except maybe to pad this out to continue next week.  I like the fact that his anonymity makes him so dangerous, though, and a reason for cops to stay off the case.

----------


## Godzilla2099

Awesome Episode

-Gordon/Bullock were great.  
-Bruce/Selina/Alfred were awesome.
- Penguin: meh
- Riddler:  I saw it coming a mile away but the scene was well done
- Barbara:  You sure know how to pick em

One question:  

*spoilers:*
 Was it me or did Barbara seem to smile at Ogre's dirty little secret?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Awesome Episode
> 
> -Gordon/Bullock were great.  
> -Bruce/Selina/Alfred were awesome.
> - Penguin: meh
> - Riddler:  I saw it coming a mile away but the scene was well done
> - Barbara:  You sure know how to pick em
> 
> One question:  
> ...


I don't know how much she knows but yeah, if anyone in Gotham would be a fan of "50 Shades of Grey" (and I don't just mean the S&M bu that whole bad relationship) it would be Barbara. 

Riddler we knew would break at some point but it was still well done. I wonder how they'll follow up on that? As a medical examiner wannabe, he could help throw the case of he doesn't lose it. 

Baby Bats and Baby Bat were a cute team and Harvey/Gordon as are always good. Penguin was kinda placeholder, we know a bit more about how he's gonna try something and we didn't get a followup to Fish yet. But it still interesting to me.

----------


## tabo61

I liked the Bruce-Selina date

----------


## ispacehead

I enjoyed this episode more than last week's set up.

Barbara is still horrible, and no Fish (yay!!!) .

I never really saw Nygma as the stabby type, but I guess everyone's gotta start somewhere.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I never really saw Nygma as the stabby type, but I guess everyone's gotta start somewhere.


Love can make you do crazy things, as he said. Speaking of love:




> I liked the Bruce-Selina date




They were cute together.

----------


## Londo Bellian

I will go down with this ship,
and I won't put my hands up and surrender.

----------


## heyevaxx

Hitting on all cylinders! What an episode.

Better than last week; the Ogre setup was a gruesome, boring drag. But this week was the payoff: he was dangerous, creepy and has a great (i.e. horrible) back story.

And Babs, wow, what a come back! I know some folks don't enjoy the character and/or actress but I think she was great with Selina and Ogre. Barbara has a reckless, risky and bold attitude. Plus there's her booze problem and trying to cover up her Jim heart break by picking up guys. And yes, she did smile at Ogre at the very end! Great writing, acting, direction and editing.

Lovin' Maroni! I'm so glad the Gotham writers aren't giving Pengy a cake walk. And wanting to just knock off the number two crime boss in Gotham is a tall order. Loved, loved, loved Sal taking the offensive right to where Oswald is most sensitive. Zayas is great, I hope he lasts at least into season 2.

Yowza, don't push Eddie too far! I really liked how that crescendo worked. He was angry but nervous. And once he started, he couldn't stop ... "oh dear, oh no!"

And to finish, Bats and Cats were superb. Both were such casting home runs. Camren really had a chance to act here and it was good to see. She did great with her edgy, angry defensive response to Bruce nagging her about killing. I know Selina killing (especially as a kid) is *not* comic canon but I think the Gotham take on Selina is working well. They have to show her torn and conflicted and being both a criminal and someone who wants to help. I'm interested in seeing where they take her killing in the future; does she blow it off or was this her first kill and something that eats at her?

Side note: I still worry about David getting taller. Notice how we saw Selina do the dress reveal and twirl to see her 3"+ shoes but we never saw her or Bruce's feet later? I wonder if they gave Selina a ball gown with a large bottom on purpose to hide her wearing flats. Looking at them side by side at the ball, they're pretty close in height. The good news is David Mazouz IMDB resume now lists him at 5'3" 94lb so he's growing taller! Camren's resume now says 5'2" 110lb so she's gained an inch to his 2-3". She's still a very fit, solid dancer to his very sleight frame but he might beef up this summer.

Great episode, great series. The summer break is gonna be tough.  :Smile: 

ps - the music playing when Babs walks into "the room" at the end was Black by The Soft Moon. Fantastic! I'm constantly impressed with their music choices.

----------


## ispacehead

> Speaking of love:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were cute together.


They were indeed.

You gotta think Camren was gritting her teeth having to do that simple box step though.  :Wink:

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

Again the best episodes are the one's without Fish! Please be dead come S2! More Riddler screen time  :Big Grin:

----------


## ispacehead

> Again the best episodes are the one's without Fish! Please be dead come S2! More Riddler screen time


I would have much rather she perished at Penguin's behest, as it seemed might happen at the beginning.

As the made for TV character, her story has taken up waaay too much screen time for my liking.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I was hoping Penguin would tell the truth to his mother and she would reveal some crazy crime secrets to him.




> Riddler we knew would break at some point but it was still well done. I wonder how they'll follow up on that? As a medical examiner wannabe, he could help throw the case of he doesn't lose it.


It'd be interesting if they had him cover it up and get away with it.  Then he realizes he can commit more murders and cover them up.  Then he realizes it's no fun and he wants a bigger challenge, so he starts killing people and leaving clues for the police.




> I will go down with this ship,
> and I won't put my hands up and surrender.


Well maybe you should wave that white flag because despite how well they worked together, there's definitely something between Bruce and Selina.  The law.  He felt REALLY strongly about killing.  That was a good scene in the beginning and well acted, but did they have to put such a silly looking hat on Bruce?  It was distracting.

----------


## Londo Bellian

If there was a Like button on this forum I would have pressed the one on your post.

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> I would have much rather she perished at Penguin's behest, as it seemed might happen at the beginning.
> 
> As the made for TV character, her story has taken up waaay too much screen time for my liking.


Completely agree, her story was done and when Falcone didn't kill her it was obvious that they were under some sort of obligation to keep her running, apparently she is super popular.  There is no way in hell would Falcone have not killed her.

----------


## ispacehead

> ...it was obvious that they were under some sort of obligation to keep her running, ...


The thought had definitely occurred to me. She is the biggest name on the show I suppose. Or at least the name with the most weighty connections.  :Wink: 

If she just bleeds out after being shot, it will be a total cop out.

I would probably have appreciated her character more if she had just taken an umbrella to the throat about episode 6 or 7.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> I would have much rather she perished at Penguin's behest, as it seemed might happen at the beginning.
> 
> As the made for TV character, her story has taken up waaay too much screen time for my liking.


It would be so sweet if Butch aided the Penguin in killing her. The look on her face would be worth it alone.

----------


## devil leonx

I had to say a episode  that did not have Fish......it felt like nothing was missing at all....Also I like Bruce and Selina growing dynamic.

----------


## colossus34

Skimmed through the new episode tonight... wow this show is seriously unwatchable for me at this point. Such a mess! 5-6 plot lines all running at once. Terrible "twist" for Barbara's character that comes out of nowhere. Watch 2-3 episodes of Daredevil and "dare" I say come back and try to sit through one episode of Gotham, this show is night and day in terms of quality of writing and story.

----------


## Punisher007

*spoilers:*
 Actually, it could be kind of interesting if Barbara was always a psychopath deep down (it'd certainly explain a lot of her actions so far) and all that Ogre is doing is bringing that out into the open.

OR, the writers are realizing that she's a pretty despised character amongst the viewership and are just running with it.  "Screw it, let's just turn her into what the audience already thinks that she is, a nutjob."
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Black_Adam

This was one of those weeks where the subplots were more interesting than the main one. I enjoyed the Riddler and Penguin scenes, the last 2 episodes have been great for Nygma, all season I've wanted to see that dark side of him finally come out, loved that little "riddle" right at the end.

Overall the Ogre was a decent villain but with a great actor like Milo Ventimiglia think they could of found a better role for him on the show instead of a bizarre Christian Grey-esque serial killer.

----------


## colossus34

> This was one of those weeks where the subplots were more interesting than the main one. I enjoyed the Riddler and Penguin scenes, the last 2 episodes have been great for Nygma, all season I've wanted to see that dark side of him finally come out, loved that little "riddle" right at the end.


You honestly are enjoying this hack job of the Riddler's origin? I mean what is there to like? He's basically posses none of the poise, intellect or sophistication of The Riddler. It's a boring, hackneyed and oh so predictable trope of the awkward, socially inept beta male turning evil from the rejections of the fairer sex. There is no surprise in anything we've seen from this. Batman The Animated series did this entire arc better with the Mad Hatter origin episode and they didn't need to drag it on over an entire season, it worked fine in 15 minutes. Not to mention, I always saw a young Riddler as the sort of man cursed with such high intellect he felt above lowly sexual urges. Sort of an evil version of Tesla. To each their own though.

----------


## Kid A

This show is so bad lol.   I used to even defend it because I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt and to be fair there is some stuff going for it (Awesome looking Gotham, good performances from some of the cast esp. Penguin), but basically this is a show with no real vision; they're just exploiting Batman IP into a shallow and meaningless soap+crime drama that's ultimately neither campy nor gritty; just trashy. 

I don't think Daredevil is the masterpiece that Marvel fanboys do, but this show is unwatchable after that.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

The Bruce stuff is still interesting, and I thought it was a nice touch that learning that his father kept somedark secrets compelled Bruce to be 100% honest with Alfred about what he'd been up to.  Also, yay for Lucius Fox.

Still like Gordon, Bullock, and Penguin, but their plots are dragging and/or repeating now, and Barbara is still horrid.  If they made her a villain it could turn her around, but it's unclear.  The plotting has gotten really sloppy just to fill up 20 episodes.

----------


## Panfoot

Well, if nothing else, we did get Bullock walking befuddled through that party.

----------


## Agent Z

So does this mean that Selina killing Reggie was pointless in hindsight? All Bruce did was get a 'talk' from Bunderslaw.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Watch 2-3 episodes of Daredevil and "dare" I say come back and try to sit through one episode of Gotham, this show is night and day in terms of quality of writing and story.


I did, outside of Vincent and Rosario and a good stunt team there isn't much to crow about with Dardevil. The lead is bland.




> I don't think Daredevil is the masterpiece that Marvel fanboys do, but this show is unwatchable after that.


I disagree, I appreciate there being some style to Gotham even more now. And there's a greater number of characters I'm interested in on Gotham. 

Clearly, since you both show up week after week this is the series you're more passionate about. Some people will love it, some will hate it but if you're not inspiring passion you're not doing it right. Gotham is therefore doing it right.

----------


## tabo61

Gordon's future wife is going to be traumatized for the rest of her life

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Gordon's future wife is going to be traumatized for the rest of her life


She really must have hated her parents so much for her to give them up to the Ogre. BTW, I thought Erin Richards was pretty good here. She has gotten a lot of grief this season, but I think it's more to due with Barbara's quasi-unlikeability as a character (especially compared to Leslie Thompkins) rather than her acting, IMO.

----------


## ispacehead

> This show is so bad lol.   I used to even defend it because I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt and to be fair there is some stuff going for it (Awesome looking Gotham, good performances from some of the cast esp. Penguin), but basically this is a show with no real vision; they're just exploiting Batman IP into a shallow and meaningless soap+crime drama that's ultimately neither campy nor gritty; just trashy.


I kinda agree. I want to like the show so bad that I overlook some of the cringing  I go through.

I can only take so much of Penguin. Nygma has strayed a little too quickly into violence for my liking. 

The absence of Fish this episode means sadly that we have that to look forward in the finale.

Bruce's story is fun, but I don't know if it's fun enough to carry the show. We're straying a little too close to Smallville.

I do love Ben McKenzie's Gordon still.

Hopefully next season will ratchet things up a notch.




> I don't think Daredevil is the masterpiece that Marvel fanboys do, but this show is unwatchable after that.


I've only seen the first couple episodes but I'm enjoying it more than I expected to.

Masterpiece is a stretch, certainly.

----------


## skyvolt2000

Did anyone else's comic book store give out free Gotham bags today?

It's black with the show's name and Fox on it. I would say it's about the size of magazine.

----------


## ispacehead

Mine didn't.  :Frown:

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Mine didn't.


I'll ask them where they got them from. They were nice quality. I wonder if they were for FCBD.

----------


## ispacehead

"I've got an idea! Let's get awful haircuts and seize Gotham!"

Horrible episode. They saved all the worst ideas for the end apparently. 

The last two seconds were the only decent moments of the whole episode.

OMFG That was bad.

----------


## Kid A

> Clearly, since you both show up week after week this is the series you're more passionate about. Some people will love it, some will hate it but if you're not inspiring passion you're not doing it right. Gotham is therefore doing it right.


Considering that my last post in this thread before the one you quoted was in November, no, I don't show up here "week after week."  Painting everyone who criticizes something you like as implicatively irrational about it doesn't always work.

But even if I was still watching this show, the only thing it shows Gotham doing right is that they know how to take iconic IP like Batman and you'll have thousands of fans who will watch it no matter how shitty it gets.

----------


## neonrideraryeh

Well then...

So Fish and her terrible haircut (along with bad haircut Selena too for some reason) strolls into Gotham with really bad dialogue "good morning child, (it's not morning) it will be" what is this rubbish  :Stick Out Tongue:   Fish is so out of place in this show, I hope she's gone for good.

Butch shoots them both because he didn't want to shoot either.  Logic!  Why didn't he just shoot neither of them.  Fish is finally defeated by Penguin, but they leave it vague cos she plops in the water.  Sadly no "penguins eat fish" line that I was waiting for (yes that's tacky but comparatively to the rest of the show, it's not).  I really wish he had just stabbed her and watched the life leave her slowly.

Intercut between the action, we had a bunch of Barbara therapy scenes, which I thought were weird.  Plus she was being really creepy and uncomfortable which I guess is decent acting, but then they showed us these scenes were actually going somewhere and Barbara snaps.  She goes nuts and then the ensuing fight is hilarious.  Barbara as a character really is not salvageable anymore and probably going to prison/arkham/to a farm upstate/etc.  There is no way she'd have a relationship with Jim after that. She's full on bad guy now.

Finally we get the only story-line that matters.  Bruce finally finds the entrance to the cave.  No clock though, but there was the fireplace moving back.  No bats flying out unfortunately.  You'd think they would add some symbolism considering the rest of this show has been unsubtle with its symbolism.  It ends at that point unfortunately, because I wanted to see them go down and see the cave.  Though realistically, the set probably hasn't been built yet. 

So Penguin is the king of Gotham apparently, but he doesn't actually have anything besides the club.  He doesn't have any loyal grunts like the others did.  He would have to work hard to get people on his side now.  Also considering Jim saw him attempt murder, he should just waltz up to him and arrest him.  Penguin doesn't have the army of grunts, so nobody would really lift a finger if they just locked him away.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Considering that my last post in this thread before the one you quoted was in November, no, I don't show up here "week after week."  .


Yet you're here right on schedule. Hmm.




> But even if I was still watching this show,


So you don't watch the show but are here to complain? Troll much? Meh.




> Butch shows them both because he didn't want to shoot either. Logic! Why didn't he just shoot neither of them.


I think he wanted to shoot both of them since he's sick of being both their lackeys. 




> Barbara as a character really is not salvageable anymore and probably going to prison/arkham/to a farm upstate/etc. There is no way she'd have a relationship with Jim after that. She's full on bad guy now.


Doesn't mean her character isn't salvageable, just different than you expected. Some might even say improved  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> So Penguin is the king of Gotham apparently, but he doesn't actually have anything besides the club. He doesn't have any loyal grunts like the others did. He would have to work hard to get people on his side now. Also considering Jim saw him attempt murder, he should just waltz up to him and arrest him. Penguin doesn't have the army of grunts, so nobody would really lift a finger if they just locked him away.


Jim still owes him a favor. And we have next season to see him build his empire. I'm sure it won't be overnight.




> Bruce finally finds the entrance to the cave. No clock though, but there was the fireplace moving back. No bats flying out unfortunately.


I heard fluttering and the subtitles captioned it "leathery wings fluttering"

----------


## ispacehead

> Doesn't mean her character isn't salvageable, just different than you expected. Some might even say improved


I don't know if making her this psychologically damaged qualifies as an improvement. 

As awful as the character already was, this makes it even more difficult to buy Jim getting back with her at any point.

But I guess that, along with the death of Sal Maroni, puts us in uncharted territory.  With Maroni's gone, does that mean they might introduce the McKillens next season? (God help us if so.)

Penguin was over the top bad this episode. The "Look ma, top a the world!" scene was just silly.

Nygma's transformation wasn't really doing it for me to begin with, and psycho camera effects cannot fix that.

Funny enough, I wanted to see Selina and Fish in a scene together since early in the season before Fish's storyline went off the rails. Even that was a let down. It's like they couldn't figure out any other way to write Cat in, so they just tacked her on there so she could be in the episode.

What a disappointment of a finale.

The show certainly hasn't ever qualified as high art, but I've been able to enjoy some aspects of it still up until this episode.

----------


## Maxpower00044

I watched about 5 minutes of the finale before I turned it off. Haven't watched the show since episode 4 and it's gotten so much worse. 

I see a lot of people dogging Daredevil to prop this s**tshow up, and it's hysterical. Daredevil is 10x the show this is, and could possibly be the best Superhero related show/movie since TDK (and no, I'm not a Marvel fanboy, at all). Daredevil isn't just good superhero TV, it's good tv, period. I've recommended DD to so many non-comic book fans and everyone seems to echo the same sentiment. 


I wouldn't recommend Gotham to anyone.

----------


## ispacehead

> I wouldn't recommend Gotham to anyone.


I would recommend it to Smallville fans. It seems similarly trite.

Hopefully next season will go a different direction, but I'm not holding my breath during the break.

Daredevil is a much better show for sure.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> I would recommend it to Smallville fans. It seems similarly trite.
> 
> Hopefully next season will go a different direction, but I'm not holding my breath during the break.
> 
> Daredevil is a much better show for sure.


Yeah, I've already watched DD twice through (it's better than every Marvel movie I've seen). It certainly raised the bar and made me very interested in the other shows Marvel is bringing to Netflix. It even makes Arrow and Flash a little more difficult to watch, and I enjoy those shows a lot. I saw someone say Charlie Cox was Bland. If Charlie Cox is bland, then Ben McKenzie has been dead since episode 1. 

Here's to hoping that 'Titans' does our boy Dickie G justice. I want the show to be good so badly.

I expected so much more from Gotham, but it just didn't deliver.

----------


## tabo61

Batgirl's mom is a killer.  How tragic.

----------


## ispacehead

> Yeah, I've already watched DD twice through (it's better than every Marvel movie I've seen). It certainly raised the bar and made me very interested in the other shows Marvel is bringing to Netflix. It even makes Arrow and Flash a little more difficult to watch, and I enjoy those shows a lot. I saw someone say Charlie Cox was Bland. If Charlie Cox is bland, then Ben McKenzie has been dead since episode 1.


I really like Ben McKenzie's performance. Unfortunately, that's about all I like...

Daredevil is good though. I'm only up to episode 4, so I have lots more to enjoy, but I'm digging it. I wish Gotham would have taken a page from this style, rather than from Once Upon A Time.

Charlie Cox is interesting in the role. I wouldn't call him bland, but it is a rather subdued performance.

I'm glad to see him in a feature after his wonderful performance in Boardwalk Empire.




> Batgirl's mom is a killer.  How tragic.


Made me think of James.

Barbara's (batrgirl's) parentage has become such a clouded issue.

There's no telling what they'll do with her.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Well, my father and I still enjoy the show. Is it perfect? No. Is it fun? Yep. I'll keep watching until the latter doesn't happen for me anymore.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> I don't know if making her this psychologically damaged qualifies as an improvement.


She was always damaged, now she's got something to do with it and gonna put some power behind it.




> Haven't watched the show since episode 4 and it's gotten so much worse.


Ok so you didn't like it and still don't. And if you both want to push Dardevil, go to a Daredevil thread.




> Well, my father and I still enjoy the show. Is it perfect? No. Is it fun? Yep. I'll keep watching until the latter doesn't happen for me anymore.


That's the way to live  :Smile:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> That's the way to live


Yeah, I can't be bothered about this or that show not following the source material completely, since that's never happened with any previous television show/film that I can think of. My septuagenarian father is actually even more understanding about this than I am.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> She was always damaged, now she's got something to do with it and gonna put some power behind it.
> 
> 
> Ok so you didn't like it and still don't. And if you both want to push Dardevil, go to a Daredevil thread.
> 
> 
> That's the way to live



So, I'm not allowed to make comparisons to a show that feel has set the bar for Comic Book shows? I didn't start the DD talk, it was here already. I'm sorry if me thinking Gotham is trash bums you out so much, but I'll chat in whatever thread I want.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Yeah, I can't be bothered about this or that show not following the source material completely, since that's never happened with any previous television show/film that I can think of. My septuagenarian father is actually even more understanding about this than I am.


For me, it's not about sticking completely to the source material. Nolan's films don't stick to the source, and yet I found them to be great films (Rises slightly less so). It's about spinning the source material in a way that doesn't seem so forced and convenient. The biggest thing though, is the writing/acting isn't very good at all.

----------


## ispacehead

> It even makes Arrow and Flash a little more difficult to watch, and I enjoy those shows a lot.


Meant to respond to this in my earlier post. I don't watch Arrow. Haven't even seen one episode. Looks more Smallvilley than Gotham. Is it actually better?

I do like Flash. Daredevil doesn't really detract from that for me cuz they're just totally different shows.

----------


## Punisher007

-So did Selina going evil/joining Fish come out of complete nowhere, or did I miss some kind of buildup beforehand?  Also, it's completely contrary to what her character's been thus far.

-Fish's death was lame.

-Going against canon and offing Maroni this early COULD have actually been interesting, but again awful execution.

-Speaking of which, that action scene SUCKED!!

-Barbara, you've been horribly mistreated all season.  But hey, her embracing her inner psychopath might actually make her an semi-interesting character going forward, maybe?

-YEAH, Leslie.

-Penguin taking over felt way too easy, and Riddler's turn happened way too fast.

----------


## ispacehead

> -Fish's death was lame.


*IF* she even died.

I just read an interview with Smith where she says she is not a series *regular* next season. Kind o cryptic.

That was water she fell into after all.

And yeah....the Cat thing was totally forced.

----------


## Agent Z

> She was always damaged, now she's got something to do with it and gonna put some power behind it.
> 
> 
> Ok so you didn't like it and still don't. And if you both want to push Dardevil, go to a Daredevil thread.
> 
> 
> That's the way to live


Honestly this development with Barbara seems out of the blue. Is being a killer really the next logical step from 'drug addict'.

----------


## Punisher007

No be she's been doing selfish and reprehensible things all season.  Perhaps she was always a psychopath at heart and all that The Ogre did was to bring that side of her out into the open.

----------


## Agent Z

Selina: Cat got your tongue?

Come on, Gotham. I thought you had more dignity than at. 

Also, Butch's brainwashing seems really inconsistent. Several episodes ago he was being very unhelpful to Penguin and was almost like his old self, but this episode he was basically a mindless, fragile goon. 




> No be she's been doing selfish and reprehensible things all season.  Perhaps she was always a psychopath at heart and all that The Ogre did was to bring that side of her out into the open.


Again, I'm not saying she hasn't been a pain, but killing her own parents and then trying to kill Jim's current girlfriend just seemed so random. Watching that part of the episode reminded me of those really bad fanfics were a character gets crapped on for the sake of the author's favored pairing.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> For me, it's not about sticking completely to the source material. Nolan's films don't stick to the source, and yet I found them to be great films (Rises slightly less so). It's about spinning the source material in a way that doesn't seem so forced and convenient. The biggest thing though, is the writing/acting isn't very good at all.


I think, overall, the acting has been good. The writing less so, but not to the point that it's problematic for me.

----------


## ispacehead

> Again, I'm not saying she hasn't been a pain, but killing her own parents and then trying to kill Jim's current girlfriend just seemed so random.


She's been wildly awful the entire series, but this episode was over the freaking top.

How are we supposed to buy any sort of reconciliation between her and Jim? She's a nutbag now.

Unless of course she convinces Jim that Leslie started the whole thing, which seems farfetched to the soapy degree.

I really hope they iron out some of the wrinkles next season to make this show a little more worthwhile.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> She's been wildly awful the entire series, but this episode was over the freaking top.
> 
> How are we supposed to buy any sort of reconciliation between her and Jim? She's a nutbag now.
> 
> Unless of course she convinces Jim that Leslie started the whole thing, which seems farfetched to the soapy degree.
> 
> I really hope they iron out some of the wrinkles next season to make this show a little more worthwhile.


I have to admit that Barbara-as-psycho is really pushing it for me. Hopefully, the producers can give us a plausible reason why Jim should go back to her in the future.

----------


## Powerboy

> She's been wildly awful the entire series, but this episode was over the freaking top.
> 
> How are we supposed to buy any sort of reconciliation between her and Jim? She's a nutbag now.
> 
> Unless of course she convinces Jim that Leslie started the whole thing, which seems farfetched to the soapy degree.
> 
> I really hope they iron out some of the wrinkles next season to make this show a little more worthwhile.


It did seem rather forced.

Of course, Jim Gordon's daughter being named Barbara doesn't inherently mean it's this Barbara's daughter.  

If I didn't know better (well, really I don't know), it's almost like they were setting Barbara up to be a Harley Quinn character, perhaps literally.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Bruce spends the whole episode looking around the room, only finding something at the end, not thanks to anything he did in the episode leading up to it but a clue he already had. 
Selina joins Fish for no reason and it doesn't take her to a new status quo.
Time was spent on Barbara's character, and they didn't leave her memory intact in a way that I can buy Gordon naming his daughter after her.
Butch is conflicted thanks to his brainwashing, but not, somehow concerning Carmine, whose men did the brainwashing, before assigning him to Penguin was the plan.

But worst of all, Fish didn't die conclusively. That really killed the season for me.

----------


## Powerboy

> Bruce spends the whole episode looking around the room, only finding something at the end, not thanks to anything he did in the episode leading up to it but a clue he already had. 
> Selina joins Fish for no reason and it doesn't take her to a new status quo.
> Time was spent on Barbara's character, and they didn't leave her memory intact in a way that I can buy Gordon naming his daughter after her.
> Butch is conflicted thanks to his brainwashing, but not, somehow concerning Carmine, whose men did the brainwashing, before assigning him to Penguin was the plan.
> 
> But worst of all, Fish didn't die conclusively. That really killed the season for me.


Yeah, the Bruce thing was a deus ex machina revelation though it was nice to see him discover the Bat-Cave.  Though I doubt we'll see anything even resembling Batman for a long time if ever.

The Selina business also seemed forced.  She was never so bad as to stand by and just allow a person she liked to be executed.  If all she wanted was a good deal, she could have just played up to Bruce more.

I don't really think the explanation for Gordon's daughter eventually being named Barbara was that it will be someone else's daughter than the current Barbara Gordon.  That was just a wild thought.

Also, I would assume Butch's brainwashing would make him loyal to Falcone above all else.  Granted there were conflicting loyalties there with the penguin turning on Falcone and Fish too so I could see his shooting them both.

I dislike that just about every future Batman villain has to become some complete psychopath rather than some of them just being thieves, for example.

In the early part of the season, I really thought there was a coherent plan but it seemed more and more through the season that the choices characters made and the things that happened gave a feeling of either making it up as they go or the character's decisions just make little sense at times.

Early on, I found the whole thing very dark and serious.  Now I find it rather campy.  NOT Adam West campy, which would be perfectly cool as far as I'm concerned, but halfway serious and halfway campy.  I don't know if I would call it Burton-esque (which was halfway by a guy who knew what he was doing) or Schumacher-esque (which was halfway by a guy who didn't know how to do that).

There's no doubt I will keep watching the show.  It's a genre I love and it's hardly like there are as many super hero shows on the air as some genres have.  But, of the genre shows I watch, it started as my number one above Arrow, Flash and AoS.  Long before the season was over, it has dropped to last behind them all for me.  

Maybe I think it's trying to be serious but just seems to absurd to work.  If it is really trying to be lighthearted, they have a different definition of lighthearted than I do.

Mostly though, there are just too many situations where characters are smart and savvy in one episode or scene and then morons in another or make choices that make no sense.

----------


## ispacehead

> Of course, Jim Gordon's daughter being named Barbara doesn't inherently mean it's this Barbara's daughter.


I would think that after dating this particular Barbara, he would swear off em.  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Of course, Jim Gordon's daughter being named Barbara doesn't inherently mean it's this Barbara's daughter.


No, but since Barbara Kean is Bab's madre in the comics, I wouldn't bet against her being the mother of Batgirl in this universe just yet.

----------


## ispacehead

Not everyone's preference, but I enjoyed the Batman Chronicles telling of Barbara Gordon's parentage. That would mean Jim is her father, but Barbara Keen is NOT her mother. (Now James on the other hand is still screwed...)

Interesting thought that they might go that way. I wonder if we'll be meeting Jim's brother next season.

----------


## heyevaxx

*The Bad*

* Where, how, why did Selina go bad out of nowhere? Fish appears on a boat, talks with Selina and next she's a Fish goon lugging a shotgun?!? And when Jim tries to get her to help she doesn't want to blow "the coolest gig ever." WTF? How on earth would any incarnation of Selina see this as a cool gig?!? This is not only way out of canonical character but it's out of character for Selina in Gotham. She's not flat out evil, doesn't play well in groups, is independent and a survivor. Why would she be a goon? It just makes no sense; very disappointing. I hope they can salvage my fave comic character in season 2 or this might be an "if I catch it" show.

* Carmine decides to quit? Huh? Crime lords do that, really? Earlier this year he was telling Victor something similar about quitting but he bounced back into the game. And now he just quits. Huh? I'm not pissed that this isn't comic book canon, it just seems weird for both real life and fictional worlds.

* I'm a bit tired of Penguin. Powerboy astutely observed that all the Gotham baddies are complete psychos and I feel this applies to Gotham's Oswald. Like when the unarmed goon who said "don't shoot" and Penguin pops him anyway. Or the fisherman he killed crawling out of the river. Of the flower delivery man. This is Joker or Zsasz level murderousness. Why can't Penguin be a clever criminal who wants power because he's greedy, not cause he wants to kill at every chance?

* The scene in the elevator with Jim, Harv and Carmine with the old lady and dog was out of place. They cut it in the middle of the big Babs/Leslie fight - why? Dumb, dumb, dumb.

* A small thing but Bruce's father practiced classical music which was really played on a stereo. Ok, makes sense. But if the fireplace hidden entrance was activated, you wouldn't need super hearing to notice it! The whole house, or certainly anyone within 50ft would hear it. That was so loud. But not a big deal.

*The Good*

* Sal! I love the guy. Too bad he got it but I totally buy that he'd mouth off and piss someone off. I thought that scene was well done with him and Fish and her surprising him ... wow.

* Nygma was excellent. I like his being torn over the murder since he's not a natural killer/criminal. Plus, he's attracted to Ms. Kringle and afraid she'll find out what he did. I like his conflicted progression/fall.

* Best thing in the episode: Barbara! I think Erin Richards has really excelled since her return including lots of distant, vacant, disturbed, glass eyed, uncertain and dangerous looks. She's been great. And we do not *know* she killed her parents. Yes, she said to Leslie she did but that's not what we saw in the previous episode. When the Ogre and she are talking with her parents alive and tied up, she says "please" and he answers "Barbara, we're doing this for you." He then pulls a knife and walks off screen towards her parents and her mother starts screaming. I'm convinced that the Ogre drugged/hypnotized/etc Barbara to make an unstable but still sane person an erratic nut job. I'm very interested to see her story unfold. 

Well, that's it for season 1. Overall, a great season even though they took Selina's character in an unbelievable direction (a goon, really... really!?!), Carmine fizzled out and I have Penguin fatigue. Season 2 can still be great and they've got a fantastic cast, incredible production values and good ratings (most important!).

----------


## devil leonx

> Bruce spends the whole episode looking around the room, only finding something at the end, not thanks to anything he did in the episode leading up to it but a clue he already had. 
> Selina joins Fish for no reason and it doesn't take her to a new status quo.
> Time was spent on Barbara's character, and they didn't leave her memory intact in a way that I can buy Gordon naming his daughter after her.
> Butch is conflicted thanks to his brainwashing, but not, somehow concerning Carmine, whose men did the brainwashing, before assigning him to Penguin was the plan.
> 
> But worst of all, Fish didn't die conclusively. That really killed the season for me.


it was just mostly bad the finale...I used to think Smallville was the only show that had bad stupid moments...do not get me wrong it was decent to good most of the time Smallville but when it was bad its bad....but not gotham bad...

----------


## Baggie_Saiyan

> Well, my father and I still enjoy the show. Is it perfect? No. Is it fun? Yep. I'll keep watching until the latter doesn't happen for me anymore.


Oh man the show is incredibly fun. I laughed quite a few times in the finale especially the end where Alfie was like it might be a bomb and Bruce's reaction xD. 

Overall I will say S1 has been 7/10. Far from perfect but it isn't as bad as people say. I would give Arrow 9/10, Flash 10/10 and DD 7.5-8/10.

----------


## Black_Adam

Riddler going all Two-Face at the end. Was a decent finale, pretty much cleared the board for next season. 

The Penguin/Fish showdown was so cheesy, Penguin yelling "FIIIIIIISSSSH" was hilarious but I can't deny it was kinda cool seeing him become top dog in Gotham. This moment pretty much summed up the 1st season for me, its been cheesy and sometimes downright stupid and bad, but also fun as well it its own quirky way.

Now if only they would burn Barbara, I don't see how the hell she can come back from this and somehow end up raising the future Batgirl, the woman is messed up.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Honestly this development with Barbara seems out of the blue. Is being a killer really the next logical step from 'drug addict'.


According to most anti-drug people, yes  :Stick Out Tongue: 
She was also fairly manipulative and distant and for some reason her parents butler didn't even know who she was.




> a great season even though they took Selina's character in an unbelievable direction (a goon, really... really!?!)


Selena is currently running a mafia family in the comics. It could be related to that or it was just to get their Michelle Pfiefer in a scene with their Eartha Kitt. Once shit got real, Cat ran away so I don't think she's cut out for thuglife even if she'll scratch somebody's eyes out or push you out a window.




> I don't see how the hell she can come back from this and somehow end up raising the future Batgirl, the woman is messed up.


Well she doesn't raise Batgirl in a lot of the comics. Jim's usually widowed (presuming this Barbara even gives birth to the future Barbara)

----------


## Punisher007

> *The Bad*
> 
> * Where, how, why did Selina go bad out of nowhere? Fish appears on a boat, talks with Selina and next she's a Fish goon lugging a shotgun?!? And when Jim tries to get her to help she doesn't want to blow "the coolest gig ever." WTF? How on earth would any incarnation of Selina see this as a cool gig?!? This is not only way out of canonical character but it's out of character for Selina in Gotham. She's not flat out evil, doesn't play well in groups, is independent and a survivor. Why would she be a goon? It just makes no sense; very disappointing. I hope they can salvage my fave comic character in season 2 or this might be an "if I catch it" show.
> 
> * Carmine decides to quit? Huh? Crime lords do that, really? Earlier this year he was telling Victor something similar about quitting but he bounced back into the game. And now he just quits. Huh? I'm not pissed that this isn't comic book canon, it just seems weird for both real life and fictional worlds.
> 
> * I'm a bit tired of Penguin. Powerboy astutely observed that all the Gotham baddies are complete psychos and I feel this applies to Gotham's Oswald. Like when the unarmed goon who said "don't shoot" and Penguin pops him anyway. Or the fisherman he killed crawling out of the river. Of the flower delivery man. This is Joker or Zsasz level murderousness. Why can't Penguin be a clever criminal who wants power because he's greedy, not cause he wants to kill at every chance?
> 
> * The scene in the elevator with Jim, Harv and Carmine with the old lady and dog was out of place. They cut it in the middle of the big Babs/Leslie fight - why? Dumb, dumb, dumb.
> ...


In regards to Falcon, yes mob bosses have been known to retire on occasion (for various reasons).  It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.  I can even list some examples of this.  Besides, the guy nearly died, so he wants a break for awhile.  There's nothing to say that he cannot change his mind and come back later.

----------


## Powerboy

An off the wall question but does anybody think that if they just fudged a bit on the technology, lost the cell phones and the occasional computer, this story-line could easily be taking place in 1939, the year Batman really began?  Or even in the gang era of the 1920's leading to Batman appearing in 1939?

I ask because it just feels like the whole thing in many respects has a noire quality to it that could easily displace it into a bygone era in terms of it's culture just by glossing over a few technological details.

----------


## brucekent12

In this show, Selina is a teenage girl. My 16 yr old changes her mind about everything all the time, it seems to me to be a normal thing for a teenager, and actually realistic.

----------


## devil leonx

> In this show, Selina is a teenage girl. My 16 yr old changes her mind about everything all the time, it seems to me to be a normal thing for a teenager, and actually realistic.


Yes but does she betray her friends  , your daughter??

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> -So did Selina going evil/joining Fish come out of complete nowhere, or did I miss some kind of buildup beforehand?  Also, it's completely contrary to what her character's been thus far.


Not completely contrary, and it seems like Selina wasn't there to kill people.  Just to get on the good side of someone who is rising up in power.  During those couple weeks after she met Fish, there could've been some persuading going on.




> Not everyone's preference, but I enjoyed the Batman Chronicles telling of Barbara Gordon's parentage. That would mean Jim is her father, but Barbara Keen is NOT her mother. (Now James on the other hand is still screwed...)
> 
> Interesting thought that they might go that way. I wonder if we'll be meeting Jim's brother next season.


At this point I'm thinking there already has to be a girl named Barbara that Jim is related to and eventually gets custody of.  Because him having a child with Barbara Keen or even naming his daughter Barbara seems unlikely.




> The Penguin/Fish showdown was so cheesy, Penguin yelling "FIIIIIIISSSSH" was hilarious but I can't deny it was kinda cool seeing him become top dog in Gotham.


It cracks me up whenever he says her name.  Every single time.  But that one was the best.




> An off the wall question but does anybody think that if they just fudged a bit on the technology, lost the cell phones and the occasional computer, this story-line could easily be taking place in 1939, the year Batman really began?  Or even in the gang era of the 1920's leading to Batman appearing in 1939?


It's too late for that now, but you could probably do this whole season without cell phones, computers, and any other technology of the past 75 years and there wouldn't be any huge differences.  Gotham City should always have this kind of timeless quality to it anyway.

----------


## Punisher007

They seem to be doing the whole "it's a mix-match of different eras" thing ala _Batman: The Animated Series._  And I might have bought the Selina thing more if they'd spent ANY time whatsoever building it up, as opposed to it all happening off-screen.

----------


## brucekent12

Maybe it would have been better if Fox had added another episode, like CW does with Flash and Arrow, doing 23 shows instead of 22.

----------


## ispacehead

http://screenrant.com/gotham-season-...lie-thompkins/

Morena Baccarin will be a regular cast member next season.

Not a huge surprise, but good news anyway.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> http://screenrant.com/gotham-season-...lie-thompkins/
> 
> Morena Baccarin will be a regular cast member next season.
> 
> Not a huge surprise, but good news anyway.


She was for all intents and purposes a regular cast member from the time she was introduced, so I agree it isn't a surprise and that it's good news.

----------


## ispacehead

> She was for all intents and purposes a regular cast member from the time she was introduced, so I agree it isn't a surprise and that it's good news.


Yeah, kind of a no brainer announcement.

----------


## josai21

Finally watched the finale. Honestly...it sucked. I really think the hiatus the show had killed a lot of the momentum. In addition, the ogre storyline was okay; but I feel that the finale's storyline should have been spread out over the last few episodes. The gang war should have been explored more. Same for the Cat/Fish relationship.

----------


## JohnnyGoodboy

Yeah I hated the finale the only bit I liked was the final scene with Bruce and Alfred.

----------


## devil leonx

> Finally watched the finale. Honestly...it sucked. I really think the hiatus the show had killed a lot of the momentum. In addition, the ogre storyline was okay; but I feel that the finale's storyline should have been spread out over the last few episodes. The gang war should have been explored more. Same for the Cat/Fish relationship.


yeah it was pretty bad...ironically I liked the moments that diverted from the comics well forever.....

----------


## devil leonx

> She was for all intents and purposes a regular cast member from the time she was introduced, so I agree it isn't a surprise and that it's good news.


She was a brighter spot on the show the moment she came on.........its more like the show NEEDS HER.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

So, my weekend plans fell through and I was bored and stuck at home today.  I was flipping through my DVR and noticed there were 3 episodes of GOTHAM I had had recorded but never watched.  So, I thought, screw it, may as well see how this played out (despite writing off this show about a month earlier).  And commenced with binge-watching the last 3 episodes all the way through the end of the season 1 finale.

Thoughts (all IMHO, naturally):

- Neutral: The show itself.  GOTHAM will never be prestige tv, and that's OK.  It is always going to be a weird, quirky, wildly over-the-top vibe that will vaguely remind me of Tim Burton's Batverse from the late '80s and early '90s.

- Good: Lucius Fox.  About dang time.  Looking forward to more of him.

- Bad: Fish Mooney.  Good riddance.  Character had potential at the beginning of this show and every last bit was squandered.  I sincerely hope Jada has other gigs lined up so she doesn't need to return.

- Bad: Oswald Cobblepot.  Basically went from like GAME OF THRONES' mostly brilliant Littlefinger to a blithering unstable idiot whose every scheme gets undone.  Mastermind, my butt.

- Good: Falcone and Maroni.  If they're (and Fish) are gone from the show, that kinda paves the way clear for Cobblepot and Nygma(?) to take over.

- Good: Killing Maroni.  Like GAME OF THRONES, steering away from the rigid aspects of the source material will only do the show good.

- Bad: The Ogre.  Really wanted to see him actually doing a competent job of corrupting Barbara

- Great: Barbara Keane.  I didn't know how intriguing I'd find the concept of Barbara being broken and driven mad.  But they somehow hooked me on this subplot.  I can totally see her becoming this show's version of Harley Quinn who serves as a crazy older mentor / partner to this show's eventual Joker (and it better wind up being that creepy laughing ginger teen).  Or screw it, surprise people and have her officially become THE friggin' Joker herself (shades of E-2 Martha Wayne's female Joker).

- Bad: Selina Kyle.  What the hell?  Where was the build-up to that change-up?  Barbara turning evil I totally buy (here, take my money), but Selina?  Nope, she was either scamming Fish in a long and convincing con, or they really are trying to make her the living embodiment of the line between good and evil.

- Bad: Edward Nygma.  Too big an unprovoked jump into sheer villainy.

- Neutral: Jim Gordon and Leslie Thompkins.  Nothing new really to write home about.

- Good: Harvey Bullock. Him killing the Ogre was surprising, and what do you suppose he saw at the secret club that caused him to blow his cover?  I'd say ... donkey show maybe?  That got an extreme reaction from him, whatever was happening onstage.  

- Good: Bruce Wayne and Alfred Pennyworth.  Discovering the Batcave.  GOTHAM truly is, for better or worse, Batman's SMALLVILLE.

I think I will be back for GOTHAM, season 2.  (and Barbara Keane better still be a regular, and they better not shy away from the fascinating road they've set her down upon).

----------


## DurararaFTW

http://www.comicsbeat.com/sdcc-15-go...-storytelling/

Good news, I suppose. Dunno if I wanna see more from proto-Joker.

----------


## heyevaxx

Gotham: congratulations on getting 4 Emmy nominations! More than any other comics based TV show in a year of lots of great competition. Gotham's production values are so high, it just looks so good.

CBR: shame for not putting the most nominated comic based TV show in the title or teaser for your Emmy article.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news 
_2015 Emmy Nominations Include "Flash," "Constantine," "Daredevil" & More
"The Flash," "Constantine" and "Agents of SHIELD" were among the shows nominated for an Emmy Award at this year's ceremony._

So the article title mentions 3 shows and the teaser sentence below lists another 3 shows, 2 that were also in the title.

Where's Gotham? You know, the show that got the most nominations? Shouldn't it be highlighted in the title or at least the teaser sentence below the title?

Here's an alternative:
_2015 Emmy Nominations Include "Gotham" with 4 and "Daredevil" with 3
"The Flash," "Constantine" and "Agents of SHIELD" were also nominated each for 1 Emmy Award_

I understand if CBR wants to bury the nomination counts in the article to get the click, but at least list Gotham in the 2 lines on the News page.

So here's another option:
_2015 Emmy Nominations Include "Gotham," "Daredevil,"  "Constantine" and more
One show led with 4 noms and another had 3_

4 - Gotham
Costumes
Production Design (with Constantine)
Sound Editing For A Series (with Daredevil)
Special Visual Effects In A Supporting Role  (with Daredevil)

3 - Daredevil
Main Title Design
Sound Editing For A Series
Special Visual Effects In A Supporting Role

1- Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Special Visual Effects

1 - Constantine
Production Design

1 - The Flash
Special Visual Effects

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Gotham: congratulations on getting 4 Emmy nominations! More than any other comics based TV show in a year of lots of great competition. Gotham's production values are so high, it just looks so good.
> 
> CBR: shame for not putting the most nominated comic based TV show in the title or teaser for your Emmy article.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/news 
> _2015 Emmy Nominations Include "Flash," "Constantine," "Daredevil" & More
> "The Flash," "Constantine" and "Agents of SHIELD" were among the shows nominated for an Emmy Award at this year's ceremony._
> 
> So the article title mentions 3 shows and the teaser sentence below lists another 3 shows, 2 that were also in the title.
> ...


I like this site overall since I'm here all the time but CBR totally plays favorites when it comes to who and how they promote series.  It's so obvious I just laugh at it at this point.

----------


## PretenderNX01

New Gotham. What we got was a lot of set up for the new season but also some interesting questions regarding whether the ends justify the means, including Bruce and Jim discussing personal integrity. 

And Barbara has inspired a reaction image for me to use whenever people talk smack about Gotham:
barbara.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

This episode does feel like a newer show; all the characters seemed to serve a connected purpose to the central plot this time, and the familiar plot beats (like Gordon dealing with Loeb firing him and Penguin wanting a deal with the devil to get him back on the force) were executed with a much more bold and brave spin. This felt nothing like a procedural, and that's good. I liked both of the show's styles last season, but picking one and embracing it gives you more energy to work with.

And yeah, this episode was much closer to camp and cartoon than any previous episode, and I liked that. I still think it's a far cry from the 60s Batman and B&R, and seems more like a distillation of Burton's Gotham for a weekly format.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> And yeah, this episode was much closer to camp and cartoon than any previous episode, and I liked that. I still think it's a far cry from the 60s Batman and B&R, and seems more like a distillation of Burton's Gotham for a weekly format.


I don't see any camp aspects at all, but I agree it was more cartoony or Burtonesque.

----------


## heyevaxx

Overall: my initial impression is "meh" though I may think better of the opener as the season unfolds. I wasn't thrilled with the new villains, the Galavans. And things felt rushed, the stuff with Gordon and the Arkham stuff too. I may just need to adjust to the new arch format. The production quality - sets, sound, video, costumes, make up, lighting, etc - is still top notch and just amazing to see.

Selina: a short appearance but it was decent. It was cool that when Penguin said "Leave us" Butch and 2 other lieutenants got up to leave but Selina stayed. Her dialog was made up of: "Trying" and later "Always." Sparse! She also seemed to drop her voice as much as possible, especially with Always. Deeper, older sounding. It seems that her goggles will stay which I don't mind if they'd just let her use them one dang time. Just once! She's exploring her evil side this season so she'll be Penguin's "cat" to get her screentime. Maybe she'll get some stories this season that'll explain her hooking up with Fish and going to the dark side in s1e22.

Villains: The Joker is fine, crazy Barbara is crazy, and I like Nygma's Gollum-like dual personalities arguing. I loved the bald, fat guy! He was good at being crazy and his being a weapon delivery mechanism was a nice nod to The Dark Knight.

Gordon1: he quits the Wayne case again! He left the case three times in season 1! 
1) at the end of s1e01 Gordon apologizes to Bruce for killing an innocent man (Pepper) and offers Bruce his badge
2) in s1e07 Gordon says he's not sure he can keep the Wayne case promise and Cris&Renee might have to take over
3) in s1e14 Bruce dismissed Gordon from the Wayne case and said he'd pursue it on his own

Gordon2: You gotta be kidding me! *spoilers:*
He collects a mob debt for Penguin and kills a mobster in the process to get Penguin to make Loeb quit and get his detective job back? And in the process, Loeb
s bodyguard is beheaded? What the? I can't see Gordon doing this debt collecting with a bonus hit for Penguin and using him to take care of internal police issues. The whole Gordon/Loeb/Penguin story felt rushed, maybe they should have spread it over 2-3 episodes.
*end of spoilers*

Bruce: he was good and he looks a little bigger though he's still rail thin. But I liked his attitude, it's stronger, a bit tougher. I just don't get using a *spoilers:*
fertilizer bomb inside an old wooden house to blow a steel security door. And why not shut the fireplace secret door before detonation? I know, it's TV and they want the boom and dust hitting the actors.
*end of spoilers* I still have a hard time understanding Alfred's low, raspy, UK jargon laden, smokers voice. I had no trouble understanding Reggie but Alfy is tough sometimes.

Penguin: He was good but I think I saw a huge plot hole. *spoilers:*
Penguin says Loeb can't be black mailed but what about Loeb's daughter that's hidden in a safe house attic from s1e18? Penguin knows about this. Come to think of it, so does Gordon so why didn't Gordon use that to at least get his job back? Unless Loeb's daughter died or something, I think Heller really blew it writing this bit.
*end of spoilers*

Theo Galavan: I can't help but look at his huge ears. He seemed bland otherwise unlike the Ogre who was very intense. Maybe a casting miss but he could improve.

Tabitha Galavan: I guess it's a comic book trope to have a woman with a big chest show it off. Sadly, I'm guessing we're gonna get Power Girl levels of chestiness with Tabitha. Maybe her s2e01 outfit was just to get the season going and they'll tone it down later, but I doubt it. And the whip. I'm sure she's going to be the one to open Selina's eyes to whips which is too bad. If it couldn't have been Ted Grant, I'd rather Selina discover whips on her own and not have some made for tv character do it for her. 

Slowdive by Siouxsie And The Banshees was used in the club! The music selections for Gotham are so good, it's one of the things they keep getting right.

----------


## Agent Z

I just realized the Tabitha's name is a play on "tabby cat". 

Yeah.

----------


## Nite-Wing

and just like that I like Gotham again 
I dropped this show around the time fish stabbed her eye out 
New season is definitely starting strong and since the show has kinda moved away from the mob plot which while good got so boring and embraced the crazy over the top nature of gotham I'm hooked.
I love the new rise of the villains thing they have going 
I can see Joker and Penguin being the stars of this show should it keep going in this direction. I almost want lil Bruce to just go off and train but I guess there are more girls for him to flirt with
Not sure what Selina's point is now is she supposed to be working for Penguin now? From the previews it looks like she's going bad

----------


## Immortal Weapon

I wonder they gotta keep Bullock on the show. He's clearly happy no longer being a cop and has his life in order.

----------


## ispacehead

Great new beginning. 

Eddie's scene was a bit over the top for my liking but other than that, I thought it was pretty darn good.

I'm wondering if this Barbara is in fact NOT the Barbara that Jim ends up married to. Seems pretty likely. (Alota frikin barbaras though.)

----------


## The Whovian

> I wonder they gotta keep Bullock on the show. He's clearly happy no longer being a cop and has his life in order.


It won't be long and he'll be back as a cop

----------


## The Whovian

> Great new beginning. 
> 
> Eddie's scene was a bit over the top for my liking but other than that, I thought it was pretty darn good.
> 
> I'm wondering if this Barbara is in fact NOT the Barbara that Jim ends up married to. Seems pretty likely. (Alota frikin barbaras though.)


I was just going to say the same thing. It's not like there isn't more than one woman in Gotham with the name Barbara

----------


## ABH

I enjoyed it -- thought it was a good season opener.

Was a little disappointed that the Arkham jailbreak happened so quickly, as I liked seeing those characters in that particular setting, but beyond that I appreciate the accelerated pacing.

----------


## ispacehead

> I was just going to say the same thing. It's not like there isn't more than one woman in Gotham with the name Barbara


I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me previously.

These guys are pretty good at messing with fanboys' heads.

Jim? Shooting a guy? 

I think they're messing with us there too. 

Penguin probably arranged the whole thing just to have something on Jim.

Anyway though, back on Barbara....you'd think Jim would swear off chicks with that name after this one. But I guess if there is another one, she really sweeps him off his feet. At least initially.

We can already see the seeds of demise for his relationship with Leslie.  :Frown:

----------


## heyevaxx

> I enjoyed it -- thought it was a good season opener. Was a little disappointed that the Arkham jailbreak happened so quickly, as I liked seeing those characters in that particular setting, but beyond that I appreciate the accelerated pacing.


Indeed, super accelerated! For Gordon he was:
1) demoted to traffic duty
2) fired from the GCPD
3) did a collection job for Penguin with a bonus killing
4) got reinstated as a detective
No slow burn here that's for sure.




> Penguin probably arranged the whole thing just to have something on Jim.(


Very good point. After Penguin takes the money and says don't worry, Jim says "You knew, you knew Odgen would go off." So I guess Penguin knew this guy was a hot head and would go nuts when Jim came round asking for the money.

I still can't get over this plot hole. Am I missing something?
*spoilers:*
Penguin says Loeb can't be black mailed but what about Loeb's daughter that's hidden in a safe house attic from s1e18? Penguin knows about this. Come to think of it, so does Gordon so why didn't Gordon use that to at least get his job back? 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Nick Miller

Bloody awful

Needs moe Baby Bruce and Selina

----------


## AJpyro

Not sure how to feel about this. It's clear this is all different from comics (which it should be) but...I don't know. Maybe I'm too fanboy for the original mythos. I'll go back and try gotham again.

----------


## mathew101281

This is a fundamentally flawed series. The creators are doing their best to create something out of it. But it doesn't change the fact that a Batman series without batman is fundamentally dumb.

----------


## Toreador

> Indeed, super accelerated! For Gordon he was:
> 1) demoted to traffic duty
> 2) fired from the GCPD
> 3) did a collection job for Penguin with a bonus killing
> 4) got reinstated as a detective
> No slow burn here that's for sure.
> 
> 
> Very good point. After Penguin takes the money and says don't worry, Jim says "You knew, you knew Odgen would go off." So I guess Penguin knew this guy was a hot head and would go nuts when Jim came round asking for the money.
> ...


It's probable that Loeb made alternate arrangements soon after that episode to prevent it from being used against him and Gordon is/was a man of honor and said he would keep it a secret.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> This is a fundamentally flawed series. The creators are doing their best to create something out of it. But it doesn't change the fact that a Batman series without batman is fundamentally dumb.


Except it isn't about Batman, so I don't understand your objection.

----------


## Punisher007

_Gotham Central_ wasn't really about Batman, and it was great.

----------


## heyevaxx

> It's probable that Loeb made alternate arrangements soon after that episode to prevent it from being used against him and Gordon is/was a man of honor and said he would keep it a secret.


That's a good explanation and I wish Heller committed just 10-15 seconds to it. E.g., when Gordon met with Penguin the first time Oswald could have casually said:
"And we both know Loeb moved his daughter so she's can't be leveraged."

I mean, I know it's a TV adaptation so comic characters will be changed and stories redone or created out of whole cloth.

But staying internally consistent helps suspension of disbelief and allows for immersion.

The show really blew it regarding internal consistency with Selina in the season 1 finale. Becoming a follower of Fish, this being a great gig, not minding Gordon being lined up for execution, and then leading a crew to recover him. If she just ran when all the shooting started I could see her as being mercurial and looking out for herself, but no. So these Selina changes were completely out of the blue, unexplained, and contrary to Selina in the TV show, forget the comics.

Now Heller just has Jim get fired like there's nothing he can do about it. And Penguin says to Loeb that he's un-blackmail-able. Huh? No time for one quick sentence about Loeb's daughter being moved, re-hidden, or dead?

That's ok, the episode is done. I hope future episodes don't require headcannons to fill big gaps.

----------


## Toreador

> That's a good explanation and I wish Heller committed just 10-15 seconds to it. E.g., when Gordon met with Penguin the first time Oswald could have casually said:
> "And we both know Loeb moved his daughter so she's can't be leveraged."
> 
> I mean, I know it's a TV adaptation so comic characters will be changed and stories redone or created out of whole cloth.
> 
> But staying internally consistent helps suspension of disbelief and allows for immersion.
> 
> The show really blew it regarding internal consistency with Selina in the season 1 finale. Becoming a follower of Fish, this being a great gig, not minding Gordon being lined up for execution, and then leading a crew to recover him. If she just ran when all the shooting started I could see her as being mercurial and looking out for herself, but no. So these Selina changes were completely out of the blue, unexplained, and contrary to Selina in the TV show, forget the comics.
> 
> ...


Seems a little odd for Penguin to be throwing out that comment like that especially since if Jim wanted to go that route he wouldn't need Penguin's help at all. 

They might have put in a little reference to Loeb's daughter but cut it for time. Just running the episode through my head it seemed pretty tight, I can't think of any scenes that could have been trimmed to give the Loeb/Penguin scene the extra time to explain about the special needs daughter and threatening her to make Loeb reinstate Gordon and then quit. They made it short and to the point to get Gordon back on the force.

I agree about Selina's abrupt turn during last season's finale and hope she gets some kind of 'wake-up call' that this isn't the route she wants to go down and drops back to just being a cat burglar.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Safely locked away in Arkham?  Really, Jim.  Maybe this is the first instance of some sort of magic voodoo curse where when someone utters those words, it suddenly allows for inmates to break out.

I'll miss Maroni, but I'm loving the rise of these villains.  Penguin, naturally, and Nygma will be fun.  I really like Jerome, I just don't want him to be the Joker because we know too much of his backstory.




> Anyway though, back on Barbara....you'd think Jim would swear off chicks with that name after this one. But I guess if there is another one, she really sweeps him off his feet. At least initially.


If there is a new Barbara for Jim, what would her last name be?  We already had Keane, is "Kane" Bruce's mother's maiden name in this continuity?

----------


## DurararaFTW

I think Penguin meant it ironically. Loeb is beyond blackmail, but not because he is without vice, but because he already has so much dirt on every judge, cop and lawyer in Gotham that you can't use it against him.

----------


## heyevaxx

> ... They might have put in a little reference to Loeb's daughter but cut it for time. Just running the episode through my head it seemed pretty tight, I can't think of any scenes that could have been trimmed to give the Loeb/Penguin scene the extra time to explain about the special needs daughter and threatening her to make Loeb reinstate Gordon and then quit. ...


 Indeed, this episode was packed! I think only the season 1 opener and finale had as much going on.




> I think Penguin meant it ironically. Loeb is beyond blackmail, but not because he is without vice, but because he already has so much dirt on every judge, cop and lawyer in Gotham that you can't use it against him.


 Good point. Also, it may be that leverage regarding Loeb's daughter was "used up" when he gave over Bullock's file last season.




> ... Needs moe Baby Bruce and Selina


 This!
Selina and Bruce really had great chemistry last season. And when they argued after Reggie's fall, Selina said tell no one, not even your butler. Of course Bruce can't keep it in and spills the beans. I want to see Selina find out about this and confront him. I think it could be a great building block of distrust for their conflicted relationship.

----------


## Punisher007

So with Ben and Morena expecting a baby in real life (congrats to them btw), I wonder if they'd consider writing her pregnancy into the show?  Maybe Leslie is Bab's mother in the Gotham-verse.  Granted you have to explain why Jim would choose to name her "Barbara" after all that's happened, but still.

----------


## heyevaxx

> So with Ben and Morena expecting a baby in real life (congrats to them btw), I wonder if they'd consider writing her pregnancy into the show?  Maybe Leslie is Bab's mother in the Gotham-verse.  Granted you have to explain why Jim would choose to name her "Barbara" after all that's happened, but still.


Huge congratulations to Morena and Ben! (Benrena? Morben?) They've been seen stepping out together in the last week and Gotham reps have confirmed the pregnancy so they're officially an out in the open happy couple now. 

I very much hope they don't write Morena's real life pregnancy into Gotham. Ever since Katey Sagal's loss in early 90s I've wanted IRL pregnancies kept out of TV stories.

I think she's just shy of showing, maybe 3 months in. I bet Bruno and Danny already had Barbara Gordon's genesis planned. My old guess was that Jim and Lee would have some drama and upset with Ben hooking up with crazy Barbara to get baby Barbara started. Then Jim goes back to Lee with lots of emotion and baggage. Of course, all this could change, maybe TPTB will write in the real life pregnancy and maybe they planned on Lee being baby Babs' momma the whole time.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Just watched GOTHAM s02e01.

Such an improvement.

Listen, this show is deliberately bat-**** crazy (pun clearly intended).  IMHO, It's become an even clearer mix of mostly Burton-Bats mixed with slices of Nolan-Bats and pinches of Timm-Bats.  It makes little sense, but man, it's the most watchable car-wreck out there.

Love Jerome as young Joker.

Love, LOVE Barbara's journey to super-villainy.

Intrigued by Theo Galavan as a potentially disguised Ra's al Ghul.

Seriously, did anyone else get a sense that the Man to Unite the Villains in GOTHAM is none other than a younger Head of the Demon?

Introducing Tabitha as his "sister" (when they don't look at all related) could just be a ruse.

----------


## godisawesome

Some people keep saying the show is campy; I've used the phrase once myself, but I think the term "pulpy" fits a little better. It isn't as self-mocking as actual camp, and it does have some serious moments thrown in contrast to the insanity and hammyness of the world.

And as for Galavan; if he is a Ra's Al Ghul alias, Tabitha could be a variation on the Daugters of Acheron that Chris Yost and FabNic introduced in Red Robin. This could also mean that Silver St. Cloud could be a version of Talia. I think he's more likely to be connected to the Court of Owls, since his motivation is supposed to be family business, and Ra's tends to be more large scale in his motivations.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I would say this show is kinda too out there now to call it a serious show anymore. Its not gone off the deep end in terms of camp but a lot of what is going on is straight up hammy over the top acting placed within a dreary dark setting.
I like the show well enough but a lot of people seem to hate the over reliance on villains to carry the show. I think the show has all but given up on the gotham central accept of the plot and just embraced the crazy gotham spectacle

----------


## Nick Miller

So let me get this straight, Bruce Wayne, the young whip smart kid who grows up to be a genius level detective, cannot figure out the 5 letter code to his dad's vault, may be B R U C E?

Yeah this episode isnt winning any writer's guild awards, that's for sure.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I would say this show is kinda too out there now to call it a serious show anymore. Its not gone off the deep end in terms of camp but a lot of what is going on is straight up hammy over the top acting placed within a dreary dark setting.
> I like the show well enough but a lot of people seem to hate the over reliance on villains to carry the show. I think the show has all but given up on the gotham central accept of the plot and just embraced the crazy gotham spectacle


And this would be OK, if it was done well.

----------


## bholderman

With all its faults, Ive enjoyed the show, but I think its also too Easter Egg heavy.  It was originally described as being influenced by French Connection, so Im still waiting for an epic car chase through the streets of Gotham, the season finale of trying to save Falcone was the perfect chance for that.  Also, I think the series vastly improved over the mid-season break.  Both Arrow and Gotham last season saw big improvements with mini-story arcs (i.e. Brick and the Ogre).  In reviewing and rewatching material from season one, every episode concluded with and ok evaluation, but gets contrasted with stellar small moments lined throughout.  I almost wonder if and entire season could be edited into an amazing film.

I never like Fish until the final episode, then walla she was gone (or is she?)

I think the show can improve with a reduction of story lines and the addition of multi-episode story-arcs.  There's a lot of good in this series, it just needs to be teased out.

----------


## Punisher007

> So let me get this straight, Bruce Wayne, the young whip smart kid who grows up to be a genius level detective, cannot figure out the 5 letter code to his dad's vault, may be B R U C E?
> 
> Yeah this episode isnt winning any writer's guild awards, that's for sure.


Umm yeah, that's completely believable.  Being really smart doesn't preclude you from sometimes missing things that some would consider to be "obvious."  Heck it's happened to Batman in the comics before, and that's when he's an adult with all of the training/experience, not a kid.  Actually, being really smart could make that more likely since you'd never think that something could be that simple.

----------


## Punisher007

> Just watched GOTHAM s02e01.
> 
> Such an improvement.
> 
> Listen, this show is deliberately bat-**** crazy (pun clearly intended).  IMHO, It's become an even clearer mix of mostly Burton-Bats mixed with slices of Nolan-Bats and pinches of Timm-Bats.  It makes little sense, but man, it's the most watchable car-wreck out there.
> 
> Love Jerome as young Joker.
> 
> Love, LOVE Barbara's journey to super-villainy.
> ...


I seriously doubt that Theo Galavan is Ra's.  My current theory that he's tied into the Court of Owls somehow.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> So with Ben and Morena expecting a baby in real life (congrats to them btw), I wonder if they'd consider writing her pregnancy into the show?  Maybe Leslie is Bab's mother in the Gotham-verse.  Granted you have to explain why Jim would choose to name her "Barbara" after all that's happened, but still.


If they go with a bit of Year One, Leslie could take the place of Sarah Essen and be the mother of James Jr. Then Li'l Barbara is just like a niece he takes in later on (or Barbara Jr is just Barbara and someone else's kid he adopts when she dies, you know Li'l Babs has red hair...)




> So let me get this straight, Bruce Wayne, the young whip smart kid who grows up to be a genius level detective, cannot figure out the 5 letter code to his dad's vault, may be B R U C E?
> 
> Yeah this episode isnt winning any writer's guild awards, that's for sure.


It's more believable than the bat-god version of Bruce some of the comics use where the moment his parents die he becomes a genius and Batman right then and there.




> Not sure how to feel about this. It's clear this is all different from comics (which it should be) but...I don't know. Maybe I'm too fanboy for the original mythos. I'll go back and try gotham again.


Are you able to read comics not from the Golden Age? Those also deviate from the original mythos.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Another good episode this one was clearly Jerome heavy and I can almost say for sure his performance is the strongest of the cast now
I think they just made Luscious Fox gay but maybe it was just awkward dialogue
Not sure how I feel about them killing established characters yet. 
Next episode is apparently a meeting between Jerome and Bruce

----------


## The Whovian

Another superb episode. If they keep churning out episodes like the first two, this season will be awesome

----------


## Agent Z

Gotta love how Barbara, a wanted, known criminal manic can enter the station and talk on the payphone for a few minutes with NOBODY except Jim noticing her! And really, 5-6 crazies were able to kill at least two dozens of armed cops on said cops’ home turf with only a single casualty? Man, the police in Gotham is incompetent.

I really wish, we'd seen what Essen was like as Commissioner. Like Jim no longer being a cop in season 1 and again in 2, it was over way too quickly

On the plus side, Jerome's actor is great.

Interesting how Alfred made two references to food while threatening Lucuis.

Also,
Lucuis: “I loved your father, and I’m sorry I never told him.”

I might be reading too much into that line but did anyone else think Lucuis meant love in... that way.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Also,
> Lucuis: “I loved your father, and I’m sorry I never told him.”
> 
> I might be reading too much into that line but did anyone else think Lucuis meant love in... that way.


I thought he meant it in a father/son way.

----------


## Frontier

> Gotta love how Barbara, a wanted, known criminal manic can enter the station and talk on the payphone for a few minutes with NOBODY except Jim noticing her! And really, 5-6 crazies were able to kill at least two dozens of armed cops on said cops’ home turf with only a single casualty? Man, the police in Gotham is incompetent.


Well, to be fair, she had a completely different hairstyle in her mugshot  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though you'd think the laugh would've garnered more attention than from just Gordon even if he was already on the phone with her...

Fitting that, just when it seemed like the GCPD was finally getting their act together, the Maniax would prove they're still the GCPD  :Frown: .




> I really wish, we'd seen what Essen was like as Commissioner. Like Jim no longer being a cop in season 1 and again in 2, it was over way too quickly


Agreed.




> Also,
> Lucuis: “I loved your father, and I’m sorry I never told him.”
> 
> I might be reading too much into that line but did anyone else think Lucuis meant love in... that way.


I admit it kind of took me back a bit too, but I agree with The Dark Knight Detective that it was probably intended in a fatherly/friendly/platonic way rather than Lucius actually being in love with Thomas.

----------


## MykeHavoc

I didn't get anything gay out of what Lucius said. If anything, it was admiration. And he says this in front of the man's son, to reaffirm that Thomas was a good man, above and beyond the normal ilk, to counter the corruption of Gotham. It was a sweet moment mixed with sadness and regret. People reading anything sexual into it... you guys just confuse me.

----------


## ispacehead

Wow. Another fun episode. 

With this episode's fatality, we take another step away from previously established continuity. 

I'm cool with that. It's their own take, and I'm enjoying it for what it is. 

I guess the plans to slowly introduce Joker, or to be ambiguous about it went out the window.

I do remember Heller saying something like "The people have made it known what they would like, and we plan to give it to them."

I guess the Joker show is it. 

I'm cool with it.

Some of the music was very reminiscent of the original TV show to me.

----------


## AJpyro

What happened to Crisp Allen and Renee Montoya?

Oh and GPD=worst cops ever.

----------


## heyevaxx

Gotham season2 episode2

lows:
* no Selina!
* Alfred going to a bar to get Lucius' help and simultaneous threaten his life; so un-Alfred, brutish, and simple. And please dial back the UK jargon or put up subtitles when Alfie goes on a lingo bender.

silly:
* A high powered, high caliber sniper rifle bullet is likely to go through a human target! That's ok, it's tv.
* So Lucius is working on a computer PCB (a motherboard?) with a solder iron?!? WTF? If the data storage is intact, boot a new OS on new hardware and get to work with the data. Is this a unique, magic computer that must be repaired to process Bruce's father's secret projects? Ok, it's nitpicking but still. At least he didn't ask for a blow torch and a 3lb ball-peen hammer.

highs:
* Jerome! He was fantastic and really shined with lots of screen time. His young Joker is great, I wouldn't change a thing. Tossing people off the building, the Russian Roulette power struggle, the school bus, at the police station, and on the video; just great all around.
* Essen had been kind of a boring character but she really went out well, very intense.
* Lucius was fantastic, cool and controlled under pressure. And his voice is a pleasure to listen to (unlike Alfred's).
* Crazy Barbara is crazy! She was great this episode. I re-watched all last season and I like her character all the more. Her breakdown and then the Ogre and now being a nut-job - she's excellent. I didn't understand the pockets of fandom hate for her in s1. I hope now that she's got a very different role more viewers will enjoy her.
* Bruce is really shaping up, determined, and iron willed. His response to Alfred breaking the computer, the farewell, and going to get him were right on.
* I think they hit a casting home run with Aaron Helzinger - he's really good and the pipe to the head response of "Ow" was hilarious.

overall:
An excellent episode, I really liked it (except for no Selina). I hope the Mayor sticks around (the actor is fantastic) and I'm glad Harvey is back on the force. Can't wait for next Monday!

----------


## Nick Miller

> Umm yeah, that's completely believable.  Being really smart doesn't preclude you from sometimes missing things that some would consider to be "obvious."  Heck it's happened to Batman in the comics before, and that's when he's an adult with all of the training/experience, not a kid.  Actually, being really smart could make that more likely since you'd never think that something could be that simple.



umm no, you are really stretching things. 

He just tries random numbers, lol... 

They had a chance to show his deduction skills and failed miserably. Thanks Bruno Heller, what a hack.

----------


## tabo61

Worder what Cobblepot was doing when the Arkham inmates were on the rampage?

----------


## Nick Miller

> It's more believable than the bat-god version of Bruce some of the comics use where the moment his parents die he becomes a genius and Batman right then and there.


i don't know what comics you are referring to, but the password was as simple as it could get, other than someones birth date. Imagine if it was a difficult puzzle to solve? 

this was hardly believable, 

oh and god darn is the casting for Alfred terrible, wth were they thinking?

----------


## Nick Miller

> Gotham season2 episode2
> 
> lows:
> * no Selina!
> An excellent episode, I really liked it (except for no Selina). I hope the Mayor sticks around (the actor is fantastic) and I'm glad Harvey is back on the force. Can't wait for next Monday!


I think she (camren) is really struggling and the producers are limiting her role. I wish she was a little better, but it is her first acting gig

----------


## heyevaxx

> I think she (camren) is really struggling and the producers are limiting her role. I wish she was a little better, but it is her first acting gig


Why do you think this?

I think Camren's acting has been fine and much better than I expected for a first time actor. In s1 I liked her time at the manor, going to The Flea with Bruce, crashing at Barbara's, the snow globe scene, her stealing a kiss from Bruce, the ball, the bit with Reggie, and then the shouting and threats with Bruce about not telling anyone about Reg. She's been great. Now, the season 1 finale was a big "Huh?" moment but that's the writers, not her. 

There's absolutely zero indication from any source that she's having issues and producers are cutting her role. Heck, Penguin wasn't even in this episode. And this episode was big for Jerome, Essen, and Barbara so not every character could be in it. I'm just a big Catwoman fan so I want her in every episode.

----------


## Cosmic Spider

> I think she (camren) is really struggling and the producers are limiting her role. I wish she was a little better, but it is her first acting gig


You may have missed it in the first episode, Selina was revealed among the members of Penguins inner circle. This strongly suggests to me that the character will feature prominently in this seasons storyline.

Of course, That's not surprising. in the first season Selina showed herself to a Tough, Intelligent, Highly resourceful survivor. She met, interacted with and impressed a number of the other lead characters including Jim Gorden, Bruce Wayne, Alfred(Maybe?) and Fish Mooney. 

Penguin is a Brilliant, Ruthless, Master Manipulator and a shrewd judge of character. Selina isn't there because she has pretty eyes; She's there because Penguin recognizes that she is a uniquely capable young lady and He believes that Selina can be used as a tool to help Him grow his empire.

----------


## Agent Z

> umm no, you are really stretching things. 
> 
> He just tries random numbers, lol... 
> 
> They had a chance to show his deduction skills and failed miserably. Thanks Bruno Heller, what a hack.


How exactly was he supposed to deduce that Thomas would be that obvious when selecting a password? Especially at the age he's depicted as.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> With this episode's fatality, we take another step away from previously established continuity.


The timing was different but in the comics she was killed by Joker and here she was killed by proto-Joker Jerome.




> What happened to Crisp Allen and Renee Montoya?
> 
> Oh and GPD=worst cops ever.


Allen and Montoya were dropped from the show (with everybody dropping lke flies maybe they'll have room for them in the future?) And yeah, I think it's canon the GCPD are terrible  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> i don't know what comics you are referring to, but the password was as simple as it could get, other than someones birth date. Imagine if it was a difficult puzzle to solve? 
> 
> this was hardly believable


It's completely believable to everyone else in this thread and they've said so...




> oh and god darn is the casting for Alfred terrible, wth were they thinking?


That they were going another way with the character. In this case more like the new Earth One book Alfred. 

The casting isn't wrong if they are deliberately changing a character. A writer is not a "hack" just because he makes choices you don't agree with.





> You may have missed it in the first episode, Selina was revealed among the members of Penguins inner circle. This strongly suggests to me that the character will feature prominently in this seasons storyline.


Yeah, the show has a lot of characters to juggle. She's with Penguin and he's not being featured during the Maniax storyline. Kind of like the first season where she just hopped around for a while before being tied more into Bruce's storyline.

----------


## Agent Z

> i don't know what comics you are referring to, but the password was as simple as it could get, other than someones birth date. Imagine if it was a difficult puzzle to solve? 
> 
> this was hardly believable, 
> 
> oh and god darn is the casting for Alfred terrible, wth were they thinking?


Sometimes the most simple passwords are the most effective because no one would deduce someone to be so obvious. Many times, a password is just a series or letters and/or numbers that the person thinks will be easy to remember for them, not something others will instantly think of. 

And again, this Bruce is still just a kid.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Sometimes the most simple passwords are the most effective because no one would deduce someone to be so obvious. Many times, a password is just a series or letters and/or numbers that the person thinks will be easy to remember for them, not something others will instantly think of. 
> 
> And again, this Bruce is still just a kid.


Exactly. In fact, Bruce had a look on his face that showed he wasn't expecting such an obvious code.

----------


## ispacehead

> oh and god darn is the casting for Alfred terrible, wth were they thinking?


OMG! You're out of your mind. This is a great portrayal.  

I love what they're doing with his relationship with young Bruce. 

Awesome in every way.




> I think she (camren) is really struggling and the producers are limiting her role. I wish she was a little better, but it is her first acting gig


I like her, but I don't think she's ready to carry the show. Limiting each character's exposure is just a better idea. Leave the people wanting more. She's working for me this season.

And I'm sure she'll end up with a showcase episode.




> The timing was different but in the comics she was killed by Joker and here she was killed by proto-Joker Jerome.


Still...Maroni's dead before scarring Harvey, Essen is dead before falling in love with Jim, Barbara is a maniac....

I think it's safe to say this is it's own show.

Unless there's a Sal Maroni Jr, a second Sarah Essen and Jim isn't put off by the name Barbara so much that he swears off chicks with that name forever.   :Wink: 




> Allen and Montoya were dropped from the show (with everybody dropping lke flies maybe they'll have room for them in the future?)


I hadn't read about the characters or the actors being dropped. Did you read this, or is it just an assumption based on the fact that they haven't been in a couple episodes?

I figure we'll see them when the story presents itself.  Major crimes is bound to be pretty busy with what's going on now.




> Sometimes the most simple passwords are the most effective...


That moment was brilliant and hilarious. Bruce thought right past the answer, as one tends to do with any good riddle.

----------


## Zorkel567

> I hadn't read about the characters or the actors being dropped. Did you read this, or is it just an assumption based on the fact that they haven't been in a couple episodes?
> 
> I figure we'll see them when the story presents itself.  Major crimes is bound to be pretty busy with what's going on now.


http://tvline.com/2015/08/02/penny-l...dding-married/

"*Question: Do you have any info as to who will not be returning for Gotham Season 2 as a series regular? (Other than Jada Pinkett-Smith, I assume.) Alex*

Ausiello: Matt Mitovich did some digging around and learned that, as suspected, neither Victoria Cartagena nor Andrew Stewart-Jones (AKA Montoya and Allen) will return as regulars. Meanwhile, though Michael Chiklis is coming on board as GCPD Captain Nathaniel Barnes, Zabryna Guevara, who plays Captain Essen, is still a series regular  and in fact will play a key role this season."

----------


## ispacehead

> http://tvline.com/2015/08/02/penny-l...dding-married/
> 
> "*Question: Do you have any info as to who will not be returning for Gotham Season 2 as a series regular? (Other than Jada Pinkett-Smith, I assume.) Alex*
> 
> Ausiello: Matt Mitovich did some digging around and learned that, as suspected, neither Victoria Cartagena nor Andrew Stewart-Jones (AKA Montoya and Allen) will return as regulars. Meanwhile, though Michael Chiklis is coming on board as GCPD Captain Nathaniel Barnes, Zabryna Guevara, who plays Captain Essen, is still a series regular  and in fact will play a key role this season."


Interesting. I wonder if Montoya will be back down the road. One of my least favorite performances last season, but if they can fix Barbara's character, why not Montoya's?

Interesting that Essen is announced as a series regular, only to die after 2 episodes.

----------


## Punisher007

Oh lord what they did to Montoya was painful to watch.  Please fix that, pretty please.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

"Knock, Knock" is my favorite episode of GOTHAM yet.

Regarding Jerome ...

You really have to think of GOTHAM, like every other live-action adaptation the Batverse has had, as an Elseworlds setting.

And on this Elseworlds, the Joker has a definitive origin.

And I am perfectly fine with that.

Cameron Monaghan is the perfect Joker for this show.

Yeah, the showrunners may have publicly said that they'd have multiple people who could be Joker.

But that was when Season 1 was debuting.  Things have changed.

A year later, and especially after "Knock Knock", it feels (to me) that the showrunners realized they had caught lightning in a bottle, and are going to go all-in with Jerome as the Joker-to-be.

Plus, kinda surprised no one seems to have picked up on the non-coincidence of Jerome = long for "Jerry", as in Jerry Robinson (tho his birth name is Sherrill David Robinson), the co-creator (with Bill Finger, of course ... for the umpteenth time, screw you, Bob Kane) of the Joker character.

----------


## Agent Z

I think it's still possible for them to keep the "multiple candidates for the Joker" angle. It's not like Jerome's calling himself the Joker.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> I think it's still possible for them to keep the "multiple candidates for the Joker" angle. It's not like Jerome's calling himself the Joker.


Actually .... I wonder ....

Could Heller & Co actually try to run through ALL Joker's origins through Jerome during GOTHAM's run?

Seriously, what is there to stop them from having Jerome 

A) moonlight (maybe in disguise) as a stand-up comedian who simply isn't funny to his (non-captive) audience

B) have a wife/girlfriend who dies during childbirth (could be Barbara Keane's series exit w/ the birth of James Gordon Jr)

c) finally joins the Red Hood Gang and then falls into the vat of acid due to his confrontation with Bruce's not-yet-Batman vigilante

all over the course of multiple seasons of GOTHAM?

Are there any other major variations of the Joker's origin out there that could also be used?

----------


## Punisher007

If the previous are accurate, then it would appear that:  *spoilers:*
 Barbara and Tigress are going to be getting "closer." 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## bholderman

> "Knock, Knock" is my favorite episode of GOTHAM yet.
> 
> Regarding Jerome ...
> 
> You really have to think of GOTHAM, like every other live-action adaptation the Batverse has had, as an Elseworlds setting.
> 
> And on this Elseworlds, the Joker has a definitive origin.
> 
> And I am perfectly fine with that.
> ...


Knock, Knock was a really good episode.  I thought the bus scene struggled just a bit with the choreography, but other than that, excellent.  The sometimes not-so-subtle camp even works.  And they minimized the plotlines, just two for the most part.  I assume we will get back to Penguin next week, but keeping things to two plotlines per episode works.

One thing, as much as I thought the assault on the precinct was excellent, between that and Zsaz's shootout last season, why would an entire precinct floor be open to public access?  It's nitpicking, but a thought.

But yeah, Gordon stumbling down the alleyway, bloodied and gun in hand, well-filmed.  Gordon of Gotham.  )But I think they need to back off on the hair product a bit.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> Gotta love how Barbara, a wanted, known criminal manic can enter the station and talk on the payphone for a few minutes with NOBODY except Jim noticing her! And really, 5-6 crazies were able to kill at least two dozens of armed cops on said cops home turf with only a single casualty? Man, the police in Gotham is incompetent.


They need to have, like, guards outside the building or something.  Same for the mayor and whoever is guarding him...they need to be a little more watchful.




> Actually .... I wonder ....
> 
> Could Heller & Co actually try to run through ALL Joker's origins through Jerome during GOTHAM's run?
> 
> Seriously, what is there to stop them from having Jerome 
> 
> A) moonlight (maybe in disguise) as a stand-up comedian who simply isn't funny to his (non-captive) audience
> 
> B) have a wife/girlfriend who dies during childbirth (could be Barbara Keane's series exit w/ the birth of James Gordon Jr)
> ...


There's nothing keeping them from doing that.  The only problem with Jerome being the definitive Joker is that everyone knows his real name and family history.  Gordon, the GCPD, Bruce...the multiple choice origin loses its impact if it doesn't obscure who he really is and where he came from.

----------


## tabo61

Jerome is really dead???

----------


## Nite-Wing

*spoilers:*
Hey they pulled the Joker is dead gag only its before he's even Joker
*end of spoilers*
If they remove Jerome from the next few episodes I'll probably give the show a break and watch recaps 
not enough to keep me hooked weekly

----------


## daBronzeBomma

I was genuinely shocked that they killed Jerome in the episode "The Last Laugh".

Then I remembered something.

Three words: Comic-Book Death.

And then, two more words: Lazarus Pit.

J/k ... sorta.

I can see them bringing Jerome back after several seasons, but that point, he would be THE Joker.

----------


## PretenderNX01

Well he warned us before the show even began:



> Will some of the possibilities for The Joker be more obvious than others?
> 
> HELLER:  Yes.  Some of them will be schmuck bait for idiots, and others will be ones that only deep-thinking DC afficionados will even understand where we’re going.  And then, hopefully we’ll pull the rug out.


http://collider.com/gotham-joker-det...ler-interview/

----------


## ispacehead

Great episode, and interesting turn of events. 

I am bummed about Jerome, but what a wonderful performance. 

Seeing him and Barbara doing Mr. J and Harley was priceless, even if it really wasn't them.

Alfred & Leslie!!!

----------


## bholderman

> Great episode, and interesting turn of events. 
> 
> I am bummed about Jerome, but what a wonderful performance. 
> 
> Seeing him and Barbara doing Mr. J and Harley was priceless, even if it really wasn't them.
> 
> Alfred & Leslie!!!


"Oh bugger, you knew that all along didn't you?"

----------


## ispacehead

> "Oh bugger, you knew that all along didn't you?"


Ha! The punchline.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Aw, poor Jerome.  He who would be clown prince of crime.

I loved Bullock confronting Penguin.  Just strolling up in his place and making fun of how he used to carry Fish's umbrella.  Although he was acting kind of like Maroni when he mocked Fish and was killed for it.  Bullock needs to be more careful!

----------


## tabo61

Is that Gotham elite strike team introduced tonight based on any storyline from the Batman comics?

----------


## godisawesome

They've got an immediate resemblance to the team assembled in Dark Victory, albeit as complete rookies.

----------


## heyevaxx

So Alfred smacks a 16 year old girl who killed a guy who tried to murder him and was threatening to kill Bruce and Selina? This makes as much sense as his making a death threat to Lucius at a bar. Plus, there's the clumsy, undignified hit on Leslie. I don't like how Alfie is going this season.

On the upside, I liked Camren's acting after the hit, it was good. Upset, almost tearful, but working hard to keep it together for pride's sake. I didn't like one of her lines last week but that could have been that director. I really hope we get more Selina and Bat&Cat action. I look forward to her dealing with Silver and Bruce ratting her out.

To me, Theo Galavan sucks, he's a big disappointment. He doesn't move the villain meter at all for me. I did have a Batman City Of Light flash when he unveiled his evil real estate plan.

As much as i like crazy Barbara I can't help but think that Barb as Jim's straight love is ok, but then she breaks down and is gay later and now bi (with both Theo and Tabitha?). It may be coincidental but it seems like the old trope of bad equals not straight is being used by the writers.

And how freakin' juvenile can the director get with both Tabitha and Barbara sitting together, sucking on cylindrical Popsicles at the end? So stupid, very simple, and lame.

The new captain is pretty good. I don't care for the "broken windows" philosophy and the militarization angle but whatever. Getting fresh police grads is a good idea though. Going after Penguin coupled with Jim's debt collecting murder could be really interesting.

I really liked Victor's appearance and shoot out with the guards and then the Strike Force (kinda goofy name). I'm glad the new team didn't embarrass Vic to get credibility.

Love Nygma's apartment, him being a great cook and the cool Riddler green lighting. And his alter-ego was cool again and the date was nicely handled.

I can't wait for the Galavan story to wrap up. But with him running for mayor and Silver needing to get through her bit with Bruce, I'm afraid he might take all season to get killed. Oh well, I can hope for more Batkids and Nygma in the meantime.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Why did Penguin go himself to do the first murder?  He's got plenty of people, most notably Zsaz, to do that for him.  In fact seeing Zsaz at the end was enough to get the 'Penquin Is the prime suspect' ball rolling.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> So Alfred smacks a 16 year old girl who killed a guy who tried to murder him and was threatening to kill Bruce and Selina? This makes as much sense as his making a death threat to Lucius at a bar. Plus, there's the clumsy, undignified hit on Leslie. I don't like how Alfie is going this season.


Well, Alfred also knows she lied about Thomas Wayne's murder and led Gordon and Bruce on all last season.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> So Alfred smacks a 16 year old girl who killed a guy who tried to murder him and was threatening to kill Bruce and Selina? This makes as much sense as his making a death threat to Lucius at a bar. Plus, there's the clumsy, undignified hit on Leslie. I don't like how Alfie is going this season.


Alfred should have given her a straight. She's been putting  Bruce through the ringer all last season on top of murdering Alfred's friend. Alfred seemed to be aware there was something going on with him that lead him to doing what he did. I don't blame him for reacting the way he did.

----------


## PretenderNX01

This Alfred's definitely more of a hothead that the usual Alfred. It was a little extreme, I guess he was looking at it from her almost getting Bruce killed and killing his own friend (who had stabbed him but I guess what's a stabbing between friends?)

I do wonder what's in store for Selena? She's been seen with Penguin in the premiere and has a past staying with Barbara, I could see her getting entangled with Galavan (maybe even for Penguin?) She wanted to say something to Bruce but Alfred stopped that, she knows more about the Waynes than she lets on.

Galavan is interesting, he has a longer plan than many villains do.

----------


## Agent Z

If Barnes really read everyone's files, Bullock would have been fired too. 

This is the most we've seen of Penguin since he took over as crime boss, and now I'm wondering how he kept anything together at all. The combined resources of Fish, Maroni, and Falcone's networks, and he can't protect his own mother.

Captain Barnes was awesome. It will be cool to see Gordon with a mentor. 

So Zsasz isn't as invincible as thought. Good to know.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> If Barnes really read everyone's files, Bullock would have been fired too.


He definitely would have been a year ago, but Bullock has shown he isn't that man anymore (though not up to Gordon's level, of course).

----------


## Agent Z

> He definitely would have been a year ago, but Bullock has shown he isn't that man anymore (though not up to Gordon's level, of course).


Except Barnes said the department wouldn't be giving free passes while he was in charge.

----------


## godisawesome

Bullock and Gordon also said that Barnes could fire pretty much the rest of the department if he kept his standards. I'm thinking the current implication is that either the ones he fired were flagrantly corrupt and open about it, thus the files saying it outright, while the rest of the department's dirt is hidden a bit deeper. Barnes may be pragmatic enough to let some of them survive for right now, particularly those like Bullock who were motivated to return by the death of Essen. Or they could just be screwing it up themselves.

And my preferred reason for Penguin killing the first candidate himself was that he had to ensure that no one could question it was done under his authority; he just got done chewing out his people for needless violence, so doing it himself makes it seem like he's still in control.

----------


## Agent Z

> Alfred should have given her a straight. She's been putting  Bruce through the ringer all last season on top of murdering Alfred's friend. Alfred seemed to be aware there was something going on with him that lead him to doing what he did. I don't blame him for reacting the way he did.


I was fine with him telling her to stay away from Bruce. Actually hitting her- in a place with possible witnesses no less -was going too far.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I must've totally missed the casting announcement for Silver St. Cloud since I was shocked to see her.  Glad to see Bruce having a new love interest, if just to spice things up a bit.  I liked Alfred sticking him with the task of running home.




> I do wonder what's in store for Selena? She's been seen with Penguin in the premiere and has a past staying with Barbara, I could see her getting entangled with Galavan (maybe even for Penguin?) She wanted to say something to Bruce but Alfred stopped that, she knows more about the Waynes than she lets on.


Selina is really living the stray cat lifestyle.  She'll never stay in one place for too long, but she'll return every now and then if it's warm and has food.




> This is the most we've seen of Penguin since he took over as crime boss, and now I'm wondering how he kept anything together at all. The combined resources of Fish, Maroni, and Falcone's networks, and he can't protect his own mother.


Without Fish, Maroni, and Falcone there was a huge power vacuum, and Penguin knew just enough about their operations to keep the organized crime in Gotham...organized.  Seems like he isn't surrounding himself with deep thinkers, anyway.  Glad to see him meeting a challenge on the criminal front, though.  Had to laugh when he said Galavan should look up assassins in the phone book.




> I was fine with him telling her to stay away from Bruce. Actually hitting her- in a place with possible witnesses no less -was going too far.


It's Gotham City, though.  Witnesses mean squat.  If a well dressed adult man smacks a wall-scaling street urchin, I'm sure the average Gothamite would just shrug and go back to minding their business.

----------


## ispacehead

A fun episode, and nice reassurance after last week. I was really enjoying Jerome.

Anyway, Chiklis is a great addition to the show. Great to see 'Vic' in charge of a new Strike Team. (that was a hilarious little nod to The Shield, if you didn't catch it...)

Alfred actually striking Selina was pretty harsh. Not only is she a female, she's a child. But then, I guess she's also a murderer, so there's that...

----------


## The Whovian

> A fun episode, and nice reassurance after last week. I was really enjoying Jerome.
> 
> Anyway, Chiklis is a great addition to the show. Great to see 'Vic' in charge of a new Strike Team. (that was a hilarious little nod to The Shield, if you didn't catch it...)
> 
> *Alfred actually striking Selina was pretty harsh. Not only is she a female, she's a child.* But then, I guess she's also a murderer, so there's that...


I hated that scene. For some reason this show is playing Alfred like he's an evil alternate version of himself instead of the caring, loving butler that we all know.

----------


## Jay Dogg

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Bullock has a "clean slate" now because he blackmailed Loeb to "erase" his files near the tail end of last season.

----------


## Toreador

> A fun episode, and nice reassurance after last week. I was really enjoying Jerome.
> 
> Anyway, Chiklis is a great addition to the show. Great to see 'Vic' in charge of a new Strike Team. (that was a hilarious little nod to The Shield, if you didn't catch it...)
> 
> Alfred actually striking Selina was pretty harsh. Not only is she a female, she's a child. But then, I guess she's also a murderer, so there's that...


I think that despite Alfred's friend stabbing him Alfred still considered him his best friend/family. Whatever their history was growing up their friendship was so strong that Alfred was willing to put him up at the mansion and only threw him out when he was being a wrong influence on Bruce and never tried pressing charges when he was stabbed. And it still hurts him when he died and found out that Selina killed him. 
If he ever steps back and looks objectively at his friend he'll realize that his childhood friend (war buddy?) took a wrong turn in life and doesn't deserve the loyalty that Alfred gave him.

----------


## ispacehead

> I hated that scene. For some reason this show is playing Alfred like he's an evil alternate version of himself instead of the caring, loving butler that we all know.


I thought it was harsh, but I don't agree with your description of what they're doing with Alfred. I'm actually quite enjoying the way his relationships with Bruce and the world are being portrayed. It's rare that we see such a multi dimensional take on the character. 




> I think that despite Alfred's friend stabbing him Alfred still considered him his best friend/family. Whatever their history was growing up their friendship was so strong that Alfred was willing to put him up at the mansion and only threw him out when he was being a wrong influence on Bruce and never tried pressing charges when he was stabbed. And it still hurts him when he died and found out that Selina killed him. 
> If he ever steps back and looks objectively at his friend he'll realize that his childhood friend (war buddy?) took a wrong turn in life and doesn't deserve the loyalty that Alfred gave him.


Honestly, I think it was supposed to be more a protective gesture than a vengeful one, despite what Alfred said.

Despite Reggie's shortcomings, murder is murder and I think Alfred just doesn't want that type of person anywhere near Bruce.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Selina murdered someone though and it was Alfred's best friend is he supposed to pretend to owe her for doing it? Did his friend have to die? I think its safe to say if Alfred didn't kill Reggie Selina didn't need to and that's probably why Alfred punched her.
I can see the overall season plot lining up to be Penguin vs Galvan
I'm really bored of this riddler subplot

----------


## heyevaxx

Alfred slapping Selina hard is a super hot discussion topic at the IMDB forums. One comment caught my eye which I mostly agree with.



> Re: What Alfred did was unacceptable! by DrSant1
> This version of Alfred has been weirdly cruel since Day One, come to think of it. Some of that can be read as him being hard on Bruce to get the boy to toughen up, but then how do you explain things like him snarling "She looks like she's got the mange!" at a visibly ill Ivy? (Ha ha, yeah, Alfred, homeless children are basically disgusting animals, amirite?)
> It's pretty clear that what they're aiming for with him is "Tough, Unsentimental Disciplinarian With A Hidden Heart Of Gold", and in a few scenes that characterization lands, but too often they miss that mark and wind up closer to "Abusive, Mean-Spirited A-hole". Basically, they're going for Minerva McGonagall and ending up with Snape.


I really love the Harry Potter reference at the end which I think is funny and pretty accurate.

I liked season 1 Alfred despite his being changed from a composed, knowing, do-anything butler to a rough and tumble protector. Which is fine since with no Batman in the TV show to provide action, a combative, fighting Alfred makes sense for the producers. I do have a hard time understanding his accent with his smokers' voice filter, but that's ok.

But season 2 Alfred has been a mess. He gets fired by Bruce, he hits super awkwardly on Leslie, he bizarrely goes to get help from Lucius and threatens his life (?!?), and then he strikes Selina.

Now I've seen lots of thoughtful comments on this along with loads of misogynistic, teen boy trolling. I think the main thing is that Alfred struck her while under no stress and seemingly in control of himself.

If Selina broke into the manner and he stalked her and upon catching her he angrily slapped her saying "You stupid street urchin, I could have shot you by accident, I don't want to ever see you near this house or Bruce again! Get out!"

But no, she drops down behind him at the wall with lots of distance. She has no weapon and is not threatening him beyond being a teen smart arse. And then he hits her.

And this wasn't a quick quick slap, an equivalent in boxing to an open hand jab. I've viewed in slow motion several times and he winds up big time. He throws his right arm back and down and then brings it forward in a big arc. This was a *big* slap. They should have had Selina stumble back due the huge wind up. BTW, it was definitely open hand, not a punch like some claim on other forums.

There are so many angles to Alfred's unprovoked attack, it's really great fodder for fans:
1) he "only" slapped her
2) she killed his old military friend
3) she killed Reg because he was very explicitly threatening her and Bruce
4) Bruce wanted to push him out and she clearly saw that
5) she (probably) lied and never saw the Wayne killer so the assassin coming for her and Bruce was her fault
6) Reg stabbed Alfred over a corporate intel job (some "friend") and could have killed him
7) not only is he a grown man and she a young woman, she's under 18 and legally a child

I think that my biggest issue is that Alfred didn't maintain his composure. Comic Alfred is as cool as a cucumber while TV Alfred is a hot head. I don't mind that so much but his not liking Selina being smart with him and smacking her is wrong, even for this Alfred, even if she killed Reg.

I'm really excited to see how this plays out. Bruce will find out eventually that Alfred slapped Selina and she knows now that Bruce ratted her out. She straight up told him "tell no one! not even your butler" and the little doofus blabbed. And with this new prep school vixen about to mess up his life, he's gonna want the Cat back.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> I was fine with him telling her to stay away from Bruce. Actually hitting her- in a place with possible witnesses no less -was going too far.


She murdered his best friend and been stringing along Bruce since she met him with disastrous results. The slap is obviously Alfred going easy. If that's what it takes for Selina to realize just how much she screwed up at this point I'm all for it.

----------


## The Whovian

> She murdered his best friend and been stringing along Bruce since she met him with disastrous results. The slap is obviously Alfred going easy. If that's what it takes for Selina to realize just how much she screwed up at this point I'm all for it.


Wait, what? You condone a grown man slapping a little girl? I don't care if she murdered someone or not. You don't hit kids. Had Bruce seen him do it, Alfred probably would be looking for another job again.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Wait, what? You condone a grown man punching, not slapping by the way, a little girl? I don't care if she murdered someone or not. You don't hit kids. Had Bruce seen him do it, Alfred probably would be looking for another job again.


I do. I'm not the type to let things go just because she's a child. I'm not gonna be morally outrage if Alfred wants to sucker punch the his friend's murderer.

----------


## Nite-Wing

I don't think anyone can defend Selina with the she's just a child excuse when the whole reason Alfred hit her is because she murdered his best friend. Even if said best friend stabbed him alfred had made his peace with that.
Selina climbs over the wall and makes a crass statement about her killing reggie and yeah... I'm not surprised Alfred popped her.

This isn't quite the good son but yeah I doubt Bruce would have fired Alfred either considering how Selina has been treating Bruce

----------


## The Whovian

> I don't think anyone can defend Selina with the she's just a child excuse when the whole reason Alfred hit her is because she murdered his best friend. Even if said best friend stabbed him alfred had made his peace with that.
> Selina climbs over the wall and makes a crass statement about her killing reggie and yeah... I'm not surprised Alfred popped her.
> 
> This isn't quite the good son but yeah I doubt Bruce would have fired Alfred either considering how Selina has been treating Bruce


Geez, you guys are cold hearted

----------


## heyevaxx

This might nit picking, but Selina did not murder Reg, she killed him. There's a legal distinction. Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse, and it is especially the unlawful killing of another person with malice aforethought.

*Reggie:*
_Don't you patronize me.
I may have vices, yeah, but I'm a professional.
You want me to tell Bunderslaw that you're onto him?
Because he'll come after you.
And there's nothing that you can do to stop him!
You're just silly little children.
I'm gonna tell on you._

*Selina:*
_No, you won't!_

1) Reggie was hired by Wayne Corp executives who also hired assassins to kill Selina since she says she saw the Wayne murder

2) Reggie was spying in Wayne Manor and committed attempted murder with a deadly weapon on Alfred (it doesn't matter that Alfred says he's my friend, stabbin' is stabbin' in the eyes of the law)

3) Reggie directly threatened Bruce and Selina by saying "I'm gonna tell on you" and referencing Buderslaw who either hired the assassins or knew about it.

I'd bet a ton of money that no jury, even a Gotham jury, would convict Selina of murder.

I think it would be declared a justifiable homicide and Selina would get off on that charge.

*Justifiable Homicide:*
_A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The victim must reasonably believe, under the totality of the circumstances that the assailant intended to commit a serious crime._

And I am 100% sure any court that heard comments from Alfred like this would convict him of battery, possibly with additional charges since she's under 18:
1. The slap is my obviously going easy.
2. I'm not the type to let things go just because she's a child.
3. I don't care if others are morally outraged if I want to sucker punch my friend's murderer. 

There's something incredibly un-Alfred like in being comfortable hitting a female, especially one under 18. I kind of wish we could cross over Puckett's Cassandra Cain into this Gotham world: Cassie would slap this child hitting Alfred silly. She hated anyone who hurt kids.

It's just too much. Rough and tough season 1 Alfred still had a good heart but now I don't know.

Is this the guy that raises Bruce to become the Batman?

----------


## heyevaxx

> Selina climbs over the wall and makes a crass statement about her killing reggie and yeah... I'm not surprised Alfred popped her.


Hi Nite-Wing,
When did Selina make "a crass statement about her killing reggie"? Did I make a mistake transcribing the scene below or am I mis-reading it?

*Alfred:* You waitin' for someone?

*Selina:* No.

*[Selina flips down]*

*Selina:* That's your job.

*[Alfred winds up and slaps Selina]*

*Alfred:* That's for Reggie. I know you killed him. 

*Alfred:* Now I don't know what you want with Master Bruce but I'm certain that his life is going to be a damn site better without you in it. So you do yourself a favor treacle and jog on.

*Selina:* All good.

*[Selina climbs the wall and leaves]*

----------


## DurararaFTW

> 5) she (probably) lied and never saw the Wayne killer so the assassin coming for her and Bruce was her fault


How is this "probably"? Either she lied about seeing the Wayne killer or she lied later about not seeing him. Either way she obstructed justice, caused Bruce needless heartache and mortal danger and wasted months of the police investigation into Alfred's master's murder. Also she has broken into Wayne Manor and stolen items. And then she killed Reggie. Alfred had let all this slide. Now Selina's coming back for more. Any version of Alfred would make sure Selina screwed all the way off.

----------


## byrd156

She killed one of Alfred's friends, she deserved more than a slap. I don't get what the big deal is about her getting slapped.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

Heyevaxx, I doubt that Selina can get away with justified homicide given that she neutralized Reggie when she took his meds. She had the guy at her mercy when she did that. He was a threat to no one when she pushed him. Reggie actually warned Bruce about his company and warn him not to dig further for his own sake.

----------


## heyevaxx

> How is this "probably"? Either she lied about seeing the Wayne killer or she lied later about not seeing him. Either way she obstructed justice, caused Bruce needless heartache and mortal danger and wasted months of the police investigation into Alfred's master's murder. Also she has broken into Wayne Manor and stolen items. And then she killed Reggie. Alfred had let all this slide. Now Selina's coming back for more. Any version of Alfred would make sure Selina screwed all the way off.


I said "probably" since we don't really know for sure what she saw; also, I'm a huge Selina Kyle fan so I'm naturally biased. I definitely agree with you that she was lying one way or another and manipulating the situation for her benefit and at the cost of Bruce's emotions.

Quite right about her stealing stuff from Wayne Manor, I should have listed that too. I did list her killing Reggie.

"Now Selina's coming back for more." I don't know about that. Bruce came to her for help in season 1 to get the key. Bruce was looking for her as soon as he came back from Europe. And Selina showing up at his school doesn't exactly mean she's going to lie to Bruce, steal his stuff, and kill Alfred's friends again. 

Remember, when Selina and Bruce were fleeing the charity event aka Jerome: Last Laugh?
*Selina:* _I'm not going back._
[Selina starts turning to go]
*Bruce:* _Selina. I miss you. I just wanted to say that._

Powerful stuff for a billionaire who's parents were murdered and a street thief survivor who are obviously in love.

For all the pros and cons about Bruce, Selina, Alfred, Jim, and soon Silver, this back story is great for the future Bat&Cat "special" relationship. Tumultuous, passionate, combative, and frequently on opposite sides but with an unbreakable bond deep below the surface.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> On the upside, I liked Camren's acting after the hit, it was good. Upset, almost tearful, but working hard to keep it together for pride's sake.


I think it was the fact that Bruce snitched on her that made her tear up.

----------


## JSAFan4Life

Jerome was amazing!!  Whoever does eventually get cast as Joker has some big shoes to fill.

----------


## bholderman

> Jerome was amazing!!  Whoever does eventually get cast as Joker has some big shoes to fill.


I think the Joker needs to be put away for a bit, unless the show transitions back to the Red Hood Gang.  Jerome was near perfect, but I thought the infectious transition of his curse was a little over the top (but I could see how the producers wanted to emphasize that plot aspect).

I sort of have an issue with Penguin being knocked down a notch on the totem pole already, but this does create an environment where he has to fight simply to maintain his supremacy.  I'm sure by the end of the season, Galavan is done with Penguin still standing.

----------


## tabo61

So that teenage girl was a female version of Firefly.

----------


## godisawesome

So....

Anybody else hope we somehow get an Azrael vs. Talon fight now?

----------


## heyevaxx

What's with this show and gore? Are the producers mimicking GoT and Walking Dead and amping up the gross out factor for ratings? Hopefully we'll only get one eyeball scene per season. But 2 amputations, 1 incineration, and 1 exploded body in an episode - that's impressive!

Tabitha is still bleh to me though she is such a knock out. She's snarky and irreverent and she doesn't have any character background at all. At least she wasn't slobbering all over Barbara this episode or seductively sucking a popsicle.

Great to see Ed and Kris doing well. Of course, this is going to crash and burn eventually but it's good for now.

Jim is starting to remind me of Yoda in the pre-quels. The frakin' Evil Sith Lord is right there under Yoda's nose and he's oblivious. Gordon just blindly trusts this out of nowhere billionaire who survives Jerome and a machine gun attack to run for mayor. Jim has exactly zero Spider-sense.

Firefly was nice. I don't think her "family" has a good outlook though. I forecast fire in their future.

Theo finally got a little interesting when he meant the monk. I hope his story fleshes out more and he faces some challenges. Up to now, Theo has done anything he wanted to and nothing has gone wrong for him.

Come on Azrael! "Our brothers are crossing the ocean even now. Warriors like this city has never known."

Highlight of the show: Selina! We got to see her pad (very nice!), she had a good talk with Butch, nice reference back to Fish, she knows and supported Bridgit/Firefly, and helped her escape at the end. I really like Selina pushing Bridgit to leave her pseudo-family and their arguing. Nice to hear a little more about Selina's background. They'll both be in the next episode so I'm really looking forward to it.

Good episode overall but the gore is either too gross or kind of ridiculous. Looks like Theo is shaping up and even a hint of Az coming is really exciting.

ps - I loved "The Merc" store! 10% markup if you're using spattered cash. The voice on the intercom announcing specials was great. This is the kind of dark humor Gotham needs.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> So that teenage girl was a female version of Firefly.


Looks like she's the one before Garfield Lynns or Ted Carson take it up.




> What's with this show and gore? Are the producers mimicking GoT and Walking Dead and amping up the gross out factor for ratings? Hopefully we'll only get one eyeball scene per season. But 2 amputations, 1 incineration, and 1 exploded body in an episode - that's impressive!


Someone give Butch a hand  :Stick Out Tongue:  Ok but for real I made a face when Penguin did that. It's like 2000s era DC Comics with all the hand chopping going on.

I wonder if someone spent money developing prop eyes and they want to get their cast per use out of it? LOL




> ps - I loved "The Merc" store! 10% markup if you're using spattered cash. The voice on the intercom announcing specials was great. This is the kind of dark humor Gotham needs.


The villain store was pretty funny.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Tabitha is still bleh to me though she is such a knock out.


Even if I thought she was bleh (I don't), the latter part of your sentence would be a huge overrider for me in that case.  :Smile:

----------


## AUScowboy

Well versed Bat comic reader here, ive also watched every episode of Gotham so far, and i still cant find the reference to Court of Owls.. Or have they yet to drop that hint/easter egg?

----------


## bholderman

> Well versed Bat comic reader here, ive also watched every episode of Gotham so far, and i still cant find the reference to Court of Owls.. Or have they yet to drop that hint/easter egg?


Court of Owls is supposed to be coming, but I havent seen any eggs yet either. Not sure if its even supposed to be this season.

----------


## heyevaxx

I haven't read the Court of Owls stuff but last night's episode felt very Gates of Gotham.

GoG only had 3 families - Wayne, Elliott, Cobblepot - but last night's episode listed...



> Back then five families ruled Gotham high society.
> The Elliotts, the Keans, the Crownes, the Dumas and the most powerful of them all, the Waynes.


Did she say Kanes or Keans? Either a homage to Bob Kane (boo!) or a reference to Barbara's ancestors.

Nice that Gotham is getting Elliott back in the story. And I understand why they couldn't have the Cobblepots are a founding family since that would change Oswald's role in this story and how her can leverage this vs Theo.

Anyway, founding families, ancient grievances, the desire for revenge, the old flashbacks - all very GoG.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> Did she say Kanes or Keans? Either a homage to Bob Kane (boo!) or a reference to Barbara's ancestors.


Kane probably.  Martha Kane...Bruce's mother's family.  A Bob Kane homage, which I'm fine with...Finger might sound too silly.

----------


## Jadeb

Last night's ep made me think they're taking the worst excesses of Snyder's run without the good parts. The gore was ridiculous.

This show is dire, but I keep watching. The start of the season gave me hope, but it's looking like that was misplaced.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Last nights ep teased the order of st dumas so the court of owls might not be the big bad this season.

----------


## ispacehead

Interesting episode, though not my favorite by far.

Anybody else get the feeling that Galavan had Barbara lead Gordon out of the precinct so that it might look like he was involved? 

PS I miss Jerome.  :Frown: 




> The gore was ridiculous.


As someone who doesn't want them to flinch from the violence, I have to admit that I was a little shocked.

Cop shootings, dismemberment, execution, ....

 What *won't* they do. (Other than kill Fish off clean....  :Wink:   )

----------


## Immortal Weapon

I'm hyped for the Order of St. Dumas.

I'm not familiar with The Crownes family. Are they new or super obscure?

----------


## Sonia

> I'm hyped for the Order of St. Dumas.
> 
> I'm not familiar with The Crownes family. Are they new or super obscure?


According to comicbook.com, this family is related to the Court of Owls. 

Source: Comicbook.com

Also this may be helpful Who are the Five Founding Families of Gotham? - This is a slide show of the 5 Gotham family history for those who kind of relatively new to the Batman mythos, like me

35

----------


## godisawesome

The way that monk said "our brothers are coming" implies to me that we may see more than one Azrael, or that the title bearer will be the Order's champion.

And yes, as someone else pointed out, the Crownes are tied to the Court of Owls, as are the Kanes, though the latter are only implied by the old Kane one of their ancient patriarchs carried.

And I've mentioned this before, but now I really want to see them unveil the Court of Owls and Talons as well, and I want an Azrael vs Talon fight. I could see them revealing that Thomas Wayne's secret room is tied to dirty family secrets that may tie into The Court, then have the Court decide that the Galavans/Dumas cannot be allowed back into the city. Heck, I could even see them deploying a Talon to defend Bruce, while still suggesting they may have been enemies of Thomas Wayne.

But seriously; wouldn't it be awesome to see a zombie ninja vs a fanatical flame sword wielder?

----------


## king of hybrids

i'm hoping they might introduce the kanes as bruce's cousins

----------


## bholderman

> According to comicbook.com, this family is related to the Court of Owls. 
> 
> Source: Comicbook.com
> 
> Also this may be helpful Who are the Five Founding Families of Gotham? - This is a slide show of the 5 Gotham family history for those who kind of relatively new to the Batman mythos, like me
> 
> 35


My only issue there is the retcon/removal of the Cobblepots, but that would screw with the Penguin's origins in this universe, where it seems the immigrant story is a large part of its foundation.

----------


## bholderman

> But seriously; wouldn't it be awesome to see a zombie ninja vs a fanatical flame sword wielder?



The campiness of this series is starting to work for me, I just hope they dont ramp it up too much, until this anyway.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Loved Selina in this episode, but this just proved how much they wasted the opportunity to show Selina learning from Fish.  Fish really didn't need to be away at the Dollmaker's for so many episodes when she should've been bonding with Selina!  We didn't see any of that last season and yet everyone seems to know it happened.

Poor what's his name...an easily avoided casualty.  Now I'm wondering if this task force is going to be killed off one by one.




> But seriously; wouldn't it be awesome to see a zombie ninja vs a fanatical flame sword wielder?


...maybe.  I don't know if I want to see actual zombie Talons...something along those lines perhaps...but yeah, bring on the fiery sword avenging angels!

----------


## tabo61

That Indian Hill facility that's part of Wayne Enterprises is some form of Arkham Asylum

----------


## bholderman

> That Indian Hill facility that's part of Wayne Enterprises is some form of Arkham Asylum


The one thing that got me, is considering evrything contained is illegal, having Wayne Enterprise branded on the walls isn't a smart thing to do.

That said, a good episode.  The firefly costume was well done, close-ups gave a Spiderman-esque, but creepy look to her.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> The one thing that got me, is considering evrything contained is illegal, having Wayne Enterprise branded on the walls isn't a smart thing to do.


That's probably not what this section was originally for when it was designed and built.  It has just been re-purposed and...well...why repaint?

----------


## godisawesome

The interesting thing to me about the Indian Hill facility is that it continues to push forces within Wayne Enterprises as a major threat to the city right after an episode where Sid Bunderslaw, the face of WE's corruption, was removed by our nominal season Big Bad, Theo Galavan. So either Theo's going to get power over the place, or we may very well see a multi-faction war over Gotham. Penguin looks like he's going to be incapacitated next week, so that will leave the forces at WE, the Galavans and the Order, Gordon (who may know what Galavan is by next week), and anyone else still around in contention for the King of Gotham, with Penguin probably rejoining after the first shots are fired.

I'm not saying it's a clue that the Court of Owls is going to oppose the Galavans (much as I wish it were so), but it does imply that the show's pacing is going to keep this speed, in which case I could see Theo biting the dust by Christmas and another Dumas figure taking over for their group.

And we know we've got Hugo Strange this year in some capacity...

----------


## bholderman

> The interesting thing to me about the Indian Hill facility is that it continues to push forces within Wayne Enterprises as a major threat to the city right after an episode where Sid Bunderslaw, the face of WE's corruption, was removed by our nominal season Big Bad, Theo Galavan. So either Theo's going to get power over the place, or we may very well see a multi-faction war over Gotham. Penguin looks like he's going to be incapacitated next week, so that will leave the forces at WE, the Galavans and the Order, Gordon (who may know what Galavan is by next week), and anyone else still around in contention for the King of Gotham, with Penguin probably rejoining after the first shots are fired.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a clue that the Court of Owls is going to oppose the Galavans (much as I wish it were so), but it does imply that the show's pacing is going to keep this speed, in which case I could see Theo biting the dust by Christmas and another Dumas figure taking over for their group.
> 
> And we know we've got Hugo Strange this year in some capacity...


A lot of people, myself included are looking forward to the CoO, it would be nice to see owls start appearing in background architecture and other symbolic avenues.

----------


## heyevaxx

What a great episode! Except for one character, every element was outstanding.

Bad news first: I think Tabitha is bad. No, no, she's ... awful? Or is it terrible? I actually found myself cringing at her scenes and looking away. It's really a shame since the actress is capable and an absolute knock out. But she's written like a petulant, silly, middle school mean girl who likes to torture and kill. Could we have any background or motivation for her, any at all?

Poor Butch.  :Frown:  This guy has got it something bad between Victor's mental programming, Penguin's abuse/maiming, and now Theo and Co.

I really liked Jim getting reported by his a-team rookies. That's what straight out of training top cops would do. Nice that the new captain wouldn't hear Jim's excuses either.

It was nice to finally see Ivy if only for a quick scene.  Bullock kicking the nearly dead burn victim! So Harvey. Right after he says they smell like good BBQ. Oh, Harv, you sick maniac, you're the best.  :Smile: 

I'm kind of worried about Penguin. He's just lost it over his mom's kidnapping. Gotham needs a steady hand like Carmine, heck, even Sal was steady compared to Oswald. I wonder if he's gonna realize his mom is his only weakness and ...

Oh wow, Ed and poor Kris. So heavy, so sad. And as he was saying I would never do anything to hurt you. CMS and Chelsea Spack were perfect.

Selina and Bridgit made a great pair. I really liked Selina's blankets: a bunch of fur coats! Though I was sure Bridgit's brothers would get cooked, I wasn't sure how she'd end up. The final scene with her getting wheeled in for "testing" at [REDACTED] was an eye popper.

Very cool seeing arse-kicking Selina at the slave auction and when she fought with Bridgit's "brother" when they abducted Bridgit. That was really Camren initially climbing up his leg before the stunt woman flipped him over. Nice! And Camren's acting was spot on when she confronted Jim, very emotional and intense. The guy can't keep him pie hole shut! He's always making promises which he can't keep.

Things don't look good for Butch. I can't imagine the mother rescue turning out well for him. Plus, I don't think he just happened to escape Tabitha. The poor guy needs to be let loose so he can find Fish and they can run a bar and some low key crime ring far from Gotham.

Can't wait for next week. I wouldn't mind Penguin blowing Theo/Tabitha away but it's too soon sadly. He's got more mayoral and Wayne Corp stuff to do. Plus, most importantly, he's gotta be around for Azrael's intro!

----------


## PretenderNX01

> But seriously; wouldn't it be awesome to see a zombie ninja vs a fanatical flame sword wielder?





> ...maybe.  I don't know if I want to see actual zombie Talons...something along those lines perhaps...but yeah, bring on the fiery sword avenging angels!


Maybe instead of zombies, Talons in Gotham could be some of those re-purposed people being experimented on at Indian Hill?

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Things don't look good for Butch. I can't imagine the mother rescue turning out well for him. Plus, I don't think he just happened to escape Tabitha. The poor guy needs to be let loose so he can find Fish and they can run a bar and some low key crime ring far from Gotham.


I get the feeling that Butch set the Penguin up. It's quite clear in his scenes with Penguin he's trying to resist his mental programming. Theo figured it out and offered him "help".

----------


## heyevaxx

Another incredible episode.

Just like last week, my only real complaint is Tabitha who I maximally disenjoy. Theo is a little better in stressful situations which there were many of this week.

Penguin, wow, very intense stuff. And Nygma continues to amaze me with his performance, he's really shining. Poor Butch, no one stuck by him!  :Frown: 

The highlight for me was a great confrontation between Selina and Silver.

So Silver is not just being used by Theo, she's knowingly participating in the plan to wreck Bruce's life. I guess she's cocky with Selina because Theo is always there guiding the grand plan and Tabitha kills whoever is a threat. But Selina is a survivor and tough, she'll win in the end and Bruce will have major crow to eat.

*That smell really does slap you in the face, doesn't it Alfred?*

Oh snap! No she didn't! .... Perfect and so funny. I love Alfie being disarmed and quickly hustling out of the room. That was a great way for Selina to ping Alfred about the hit without losing her cool.

And when Silver asks about Selina's family, probably trying to hit a nerve on purpose, is when Selina says "You really buying her act?" I like that Selina isn't fooled for a second with Silver. Unlike Bruce who's completely smitten with Silver.

Both Bruce and Jim and pretty lame judges of character. I'm really glad that Jim finally came around about Theo being the root of recent troubles. But why confront him to his face? It seems like Theo will get him fired or something worse. That's ok, it's *drama* to have them face off at the end.

Great, great episode (except for Tabitha, who is awful) with every story keeping me on the edge of my seat. Can't wait for next week!

----------


## tabo61

The Cobblepot impersonators was a nice trick from Penguin.

----------


## Jorriss

> I like that Selina isn't fooled for a second with Silver. Unlike Bruce who's completely smitten with Silver.
> !


Considering how Silver introduced herself, there was nothing to be fooled by from Selina's point of view.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Considering how Silver introduced herself, there was nothing to be fooled by from Selina's point of view.


*Silver to Selina once Bruce left the room:*
While it's just us girls, let me give you a little advice.
You come around here again...
Well, that would be bad.
For you.
I'm Bruce's friend.
His only friend.
And you're a piece of gutter trash.
Now, tell me something, would anyone miss you if one day you were just... gone?
I didn't think so.

*Selina with Bruce and Silver present:*
You really buying her act?
Let me ask you a question.
How long have you been a two-faced slut?
No, seriously, what're you after?
It's the money, right?
I mean it's not his wacky sense of humor.

No doubt Selina knew Silver was up to no good but was she:
1) just after Bruce as a boyfriend? or,
2) manipulating Bruce for a devious reason, e.g. getting his money

Though come to think of it, Silver coming back hard at Selina when Bruce left the room is like Theo antagonizing Penguin: why? In both cases subtlety could have been much more affective. Silver could have counted on her being the "new girl" and in Bruce's same social class. Plus, though she might not know it, Alfred would totally be on Silver's side in a Selina vs Silver battle for Bruce's affections.

Selina could have taken another route and just clammed up and retreated to safety on the streets. It was pretty bold of her to again sneak into Wayne Manor after someone, in her eyes, is old, crazy, ex-special forces child assaulter. (I'm talking her perspective here). 

So I'm glad she just didn't think it was a boyfriend battle with a really mean, competitive girl. Or, that she should back off to safety and maybe return once Bruce begs her. She straight up confronted Silver in the harshest terms possible, seeing that there's more than just teen boy competition involved.

I'm really glad Selina delt with this immediately while Jim "uber-detective" Gordon took weeks and Butch flat out telling him that something was up with Theo. Score one for Selina!  :Smile:

----------


## Immortal Weapon

Theo really knows how to twist the knife. Saying Penguin is someone not even a mother of love. Straight up calling out Penguin to go Rambo on him. I really wanted Jim to step aside and let Oswald handle business.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

So Silver is as big a manipulative bastard as Theo is, eh?  Man, I felt sorry for Selina.  She's been great these past couple episodes, and she really wants to look out for Bruce despite the fact that she doesn't have to (and neither Bruce nor Alfred want her to).




> Poor Butch, no one stuck by him!


It seems like he only got the lowest grade thugs in the first place.  And why would anyone follow him when there are a lot smarter bosses and dons out there?  Butch is just muscle, he's not a leader.  And when the muscle starts thinking it's the brains, then it's time to amputate (speaking of, I guess he's lucky Gordon handcuffed that particular hand).  And hey, Gabe showed up.  Penguin had been using Butch and Zsasz a lot lately, I was wondering about that guy.




> Theo really knows how to twist the knife. Saying Penguin is someone not even a mother of love. Straight up calling out Penguin to go Rambo on him. I really wanted Jim to step aside and let Oswald handle business.


Yeah, Theo is cold blooded.  He knew what he was doing, though.  The worst thing for him would be if Penguin went in hiding for an extended period of time.

----------


## devil leonx

> Another incredible episode.
> 
> Just like last week, my only real complaint is Tabitha who I maximally disenjoy. Theo is a little better in stressful situations which there were many of this week.
> 
> Penguin, wow, very intense stuff. And Nygma continues to amaze me with his performance, he's really shining. Poor Butch, no one stuck by him! 
> 
> The highlight for me was a great confrontation between Selina and Silver.
> 
> So Silver is not just being used by Theo, she's knowingly participating in the plan to wreck Bruce's life. I guess she's cocky with Selina because Theo is always there guiding the grand plan and Tabitha kills whoever is a threat. But Selina is a survivor and tough, she'll win in the end and Bruce will have major crow to eat.
> ...


I have to say Gotham's second season is way better than season 1 so far...it seems they are just going for it now instead of playing it safe in terms of the story. Some stuff does bug me though, why doesn't anyone ware a helmet that is SWAT or part of the strike force....I mean they have everything else covered.... I guess maybe guess it makes it harder to see the characters act...???

----------


## Godzilla2099

Jim Gordon is a complete idiot

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Jim Gordon is a complete idiot


He's a little more cocksure than he should be, that's for sure.  :Wink:

----------


## The Darknight Detective

BTW, whatever acting deficiencies she has had in the past, Erin Richards is pretty captivating going all psycho this season, IMO.

----------


## heyevaxx

I'd give this 3, maybe 3.5 stars out of 5. Until the very last scene, I'd have said this was the weakest episode of season 2 and maybe of both seasons.

Ok, the bad: no Selina! That's very bad though she's had a lot of screen time recently. She better come back next week to deal with Silver.

The episode had 3 stories: Nygma, Jim/Barbara, and Bruce/Theo. All 3 felt like they were just going through the motions, it felt very predictable and had no tension. Nygma's bit was boring but he executed it well, CMS is awesome.

I would have liked to see more about Barabara's psychosis starting with the Ogre and her parent's death. How the Ogre abused and tortured her and exactly how her parents died is still uncertain. Weaving that in would have been interesting and added depth to Barbara acting crazy. Instead, I was just tapping my finger waiting for the looonnnggg scenes with her and Jim to finish. They dragged and I didn't care. Also, I didn't really buy Jim being manipulated by her. The show was breaking the 4th wall by constantly saying "it's a trap, feels like a trap, looks like we drove into a trap" - no shoot it's a trap! Jeez.

Why on earth did Theo invest all these resources to kidnap Jim and Lee? Theo said Jim "can not interfere but his death would upset Bruce so we need him distracted" so he could work on Bruce to get Wayne Corp. That was one heck of a complicated plan to just "distract" Jim! How about just kidnap Jim and drive him upstate? Unleashing this crazy Barbara fantasy was his undoing since crazy Barbara be crazy and she ratted Theo out in a classic villain monologue. 

The whole church thing was so drawn out, I felt no excitement at all. Like when she pulls out the knife there's a music flourish and I just think "meh, so what." The scenes just dragged and were boring. As soon as Harv listened to the tape, I thought Jim and Lee will get saved asap. And the rope on Jim's chair was so telegraphed! Look, I get it, he's going to break the rope and stop Barbara from threatening Lee, stop showing shot after shot of him working the rope.

[at this point I started live writing the episode review because it was so boring]

I know this is TV/comics but Jim's pistol grip shotgun had no kick when fired, none at all. No kick back means no energy going forward. Interestingly, Tabitha's pistol had kick. This is how dull this episode was! I'm blabbing about weapon kick and production realism. BTW, I'm pausing the fight to type this, right at the action packed conclusion of the episode!

Yay! Tabitha got shot! Next week, please let Zsasz shot her. Like a 100 times.

As soon as I saw Barbara in the attic like room with the big stained glass window, I thought she is going out that window! And she did, I nailed it, I nailed it! I didn't guess she'd be hanging off Jim's hand so I only get partial credit.  :Smile: 

I'm glad Bruce finally decided on his own not to sell. And he did it *before* Jim walked in to arrest Theo. That's one good thing for this episode.	

Oops, I wrote too soon. Bruce's "no, no, tell me who killed them, please I'll do anything" was kind of a let down. I guess he's still young and doesn't have Batman's iron willpower yet but I'd like to see young Bruce start to get stronger, on the inside. He was crying again this episode and wanting it all to end and getting hugs from Alfred. It would have been nice to end the episode with Bruce rejecting Theo *and* being steely and determined despite the file getting burned. Alas, no.

What a great ending!!! The last scene almost makes up for the dull, boring, predictable drag up to now. Fantastic ending!!!

Funniest moment: Barnes introducing more cannon fodder, I mean Strike Team Alpha members. Poor sods, they still can't find their helmets...

Best thing about the episode: Erin Richards' has some very fit arms that we get to see with her armless outfits. Again, this is a sign of how slow and telegraphed the writing and direction was this episode.

To sum up: definitely not the greatest, maybe one of the worst. But the show will have downs every now and then and it still was slick looking, it had a few good parts, and the story archs are progressing.

My hopes for next week: Zsasz v Tabitha and Selina v Silver (might be too early but hope springs eternal!)

----------


## Toreador

I was hoping Nygma would be doing something smarter than just bury Kringle's body in the woods. When someone disappears the first person the police suspect is the spouse/SO. I was thinking that Nygma would go to Gordon a day later about not being able to get a hold of her or find her at her apartment. Then tell him about the date they had and plant clues of her leaving his apartment after their 'fight' and being abducted outside the building (her shoe being found in a nearby alley, broken purse found further down). 

Gordon might still suspect Nygma but Nygma could throw suspicion off himself and onto someone else, like Kringle's bad cop/ex-boyfriend. Nygma could explain that their 'fight' was about her ex-boyfriend contacting her and asking her for a favor (something a bit illegal) and Nygma was telling her to go to Gordon but she was afraid that the ex-boyfriend still had some friends on the force that would find out. Then Nygma could plant some more clues pointing toward the bad cop (pile of cigarette butts outside Nygma's or Kringle's apartment like someone was watching the building that were his brand, loose floor boards in Kringle's apartment that looked like something was hidden underneath).

Just a thought.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Everyone but Bullock and Barnes had a bad case of idiot ball.  Really glad to see Galavan get arrested right after he becomes mayor.  Nygma scenes were good even if his plan wasn't, and the proposed teamup at the end looks awesome.  I don't remember Gordon admitting to Lee what happened when he did Penguin's favor, but I like that he did.  Bruce scenes were good.

But the whole Barbara plot was ridiculous.  Her plan was stupid.  Galavan was stupid for letting her do it.  Gordon was stupid for going along with it.  At least Barbara has the excuse that she's crazy.

----------


## tabo61

Gordon has his own Joker with Barbara.  The writers might as well turn her into Harley

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> I was hoping Nygma would be doing something smarter than just bury Kringle's body in the woods. When someone disappears the first person the police suspect is the spouse/SO. I was thinking that Nygma would go to Gordon a day later about not being able to get a hold of her or find her at her apartment. Then tell him about the date they had and plant clues of her leaving his apartment after their 'fight' and being abducted outside the building (her shoe being found in a nearby alley, broken purse found further down).


Yeah, Nygma needs to do something more active than getting rid of the body.  He basically told Lee he and Kristin would be together the night he killed her.




> Everyone but Bullock and Barnes had a bad case of idiot ball.  Really glad to see Galavan get arrested right after he becomes mayor.  Nygma scenes were good even if his plan wasn't, and the proposed teamup at the end looks awesome.  I don't remember Gordon admitting to Lee what happened when he did Penguin's favor, but I like that he did.  Bruce scenes were good.
> 
> But the whole Barbara plot was ridiculous.  Her plan was stupid.  Galavan was stupid for letting her do it.  Gordon was stupid for going along with it.  At least Barbara has the excuse that she's crazy.


I'd say even Bullock was a little stupid.  When Barnes told them to go back, he should've listened rather than pretend his message was breaking up.  Gordon, understandably, wasn't thinking clearly and figured he could handle whatever Barbara had planned, but you'd think Bullock would've had more common sense.  At least he figured out where Barbara was.  Now all we need for Lee to do is take some self defense classes and arm herself...unless they want to do the whole pacifist Leslie Thompkins thing.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Yeah, Nygma needs to do something more active than getting rid of the body.  He basically told Lee he and Kristin would be together the night he killed her.


Maybe a plot point will be Lee suspecting him but I suppose he could say Kristin left him for her ex and moved away to be with him instead. I guess neither of the people he killed had a family?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

I've really enjoyed the 2nd season so far, but this week had some really WTF moments - I can see Gordon giving Barbara some hope while trying to get information, but to plant a kiss on her in an interrogation room in front of his gf and superior? Huh? And then the car scene was so contrived, did anyone not know what was going to happen there? Finally, he just walks in and punches Galavan? It's like they've completely switched Gordon and Bullock in Season 2 when it comes to over the top police work

----------


## tabo61

I enjoyed last night's storyline of assassins targeting Gordon.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I love Selina not giving up on exposing Silver to Bruce.  Alfred is doing his best, but it looks like Selina has some actual dirt on her.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

anyone else think the hiatus after the next episode is way overboard? i mean to go from November to February?!

----------


## Toreador

> anyone else think the hiatus after the next episode is way overboard? i mean to go from November to February?!


I don't know. What's the time slot for the X-files return?

----------


## heyevaxx

Gotham took a BIG ratings hit after their season1 Spring hiatus, a loss of 24.5% of live and 20.2% of total viewers.

In contrast, the season1 December break only lost 0.5% live and 6.4% total viewers.

I think the producers want to only have 1 break to get it out of the way all at once. Breaks are momentum killers and this way they can have continuous mini-seasons that keep viewers on their seat week to week.

s01e07-s01e10 average tv=6.38m tv+dvr=10.09m
>1st 1 month break<
s01e11-s01e14 average tv=6.35m tv+dvr=09.44m
1st percentage loss = tv=00.5% tv+dvr=06.4%

s01e15-s01e18 average tv=6.11m tv+dvr=09.15m
>2nd 1 month break<
s01e19-s01e22 average tv=4.61m tv+dvr=07.30m
2nd percentage loss = tv=24.5% tv+dvr=20.2%

The season2 ratings have been 4.23m over 9 episodes and 7.05m over 6 episodes, a drop of 8.2% tv and 3.4% tv+dvr. That's not great but it's good enough considering what it competes against and the other shows Fox currently has and what they have in the pipe. The most recent 18-49 ratings for Gotham/Flash/Arrow are 1.51/1.42/0.98. Both Arrow and Flash are very likely to be renewed; they're CW's top 2 shows in total and 18-49 viewers.

BTW, if Gotham gets a 3rd season it's highly likely they'd win a 4th since 4 seasons means syndication deals. Or it means more deals for more money. They'd have to really crash in s3 to not get s4.

*FOX Renew/Cancel standings, week 8: Gotham is a sure bet for renewal*
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...t-for-renewal/

_Gotham is going to get a third season.

The show is FOXs No. 3-rated drama, behind sure thing Empire and likely pickup (for now) Rosewood, but its in a better position than Rosewood at the moment.

Aside from a one-week blip where it dropped to a 1.3 same-day rating, Gotham has been a model of consistency this season, scoring a 1.5 or 1.6 for every episode. Thats right on FOXs scripted average, and its doing those numbers with no help, as it leads off Monday nights.

The network is going to have several drama spots to fill next season, even if Rosewood is able to sustain its numbers enough for a renewal. Gotham wont be one of them._

----------


## heyevaxx

Real good episode, a big improvement on last week's gore/violence fest and the previous week's boredom.

Penguin and Nygma make a great odd couple. I hope they stay teamed up in some way for a while.

I was getting kind of sick of little Jim Gordon kicking everyone's butt, including assassins and crazy killer monks. Until the end! That was a great fight and I'm glad we finally saw someone stomp Gordon. I mean he's a capable tough cop in the comics but having no Batman has made him (and Alfred) the show's buttkickers. Finally a little balance.

Theo was great. I like him under stress and not just sauntering around, condescending and self-confident, getting whatever he wants often off screen. He was great tonight.

Tabitha finally gets a challenge! Another great fight scene, superb choreography. I can't wait for her comeuppance.

And wow, Bruce and Selina! Great bits with them dealing with Silver. At the end of their confrontation, that steely Batman look and tone was starting to come through!

To sum up, huge improvement, no boredom, no goredom, great fights, all story threads were interesting and fun.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Gotham took a BIG ratings hit after their season1 Spring hiatus


Yeah that Spring hiatus was a killer. Hopefully X-Files keeps the timeslot warm and Gotham returns to just being played straight through. Also the fact that other dramas are doing worse helps Gotham's odds of survival  :Wink: 




> I don't know. What's the time slot for the X-files return?


X-Files premieres on a Sunday January 24 and the airs their next ep Monday January 25 at 8pm and airs on Mondays at 8 after that with the finale on February 22 and Gotham starting back up the next week: February 29. Hopefully some good promotion will show people who may have left last year that now is a good time to come back.

This was a great episode, no dull moments and everything coming together. Baby Bats balls dropped and he's stepping up to become a decent detective, skills I guess he'll need to find Alfred (if he doesn't come home on his own, I missed the preview for next week).

----------


## tabo61

I felt that the Bruce Wayne interrogation trick was pretty good on last night's episode

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

Everything about that episode just worked!  Alfred's intense fight with Tabitha, Bruce tricking Silver (it's not just the smart Bruce we're seeing here, but the suave one too), and Gordon vs. Galavan.




> Penguin and Nygma make a great odd couple. I hope they stay teamed up in some way for a while.


Me too.  The whole "I've Got Penguin in My Penthouse" was funny with Penguin calling Nygma at work.  I guess now we know how Nygma is going to play off Kristin's disappearance to his co-workers.

----------


## josai21

Honestly, I think the thing I love most about Gotham is the development of Bruce. I feel like for the first time we are getting a live action of Bruce the Detective. In most of his solo movies, they play up the martial arts/action hero vibe. Here, however, we truly get to see the mind of Bruce Wayne. It's absolutely awesome.

----------


## Aioros22

> Real good episode, a big improvement on last week's gore/violence fest and the previous week's boredom.
> 
> Penguin and Nygma make a great odd couple. I hope they stay teamed up in some way for a while.
> 
> I was getting kind of sick of little Jim Gordon kicking everyone's butt, including assassins and crazy killer monks. Until the end! That was a great fight and I'm glad we finally saw someone stomp Gordon. I mean he's a capable tough cop in the comics but having no Batman has made him (and Alfred) the show's buttkickers. Finally a little balance.


He`s not just a cop though, he`s a former army vet with combat experience.

----------


## josai21

> He`s not just a cop though, he`s a former army vet with combat experience.


The more I watch Gotham, the more I begin to think of characters in tiers when it comes to combat ability. Like the first season was your common, real world criminals albeit quite quirky when it comes to danger level. This season we are beginning to see 'super' villains. There is a reason Gotham needs batman. Gordon is good, but I feel he will slowly become more and more out of his league against the criminals of Gotham. So, for tiers

Common:
Fish
Butch 
Falcone
Marino
Essen
Bullock
Fellow cops/thugs
Barbara

Strong (special ops/potential super villains):
Gordon
Alfred
Tigress
Penguin
Doll maker
Domingo
Riddler
Monks
Domingo

Arkham villains

Elite (nonexistent in real world/comic book level)

Jerome (potentially)
Firefly (potentially)
Monks
Zaaz 
Theo Galavan


I feel like the intro of "elite" villains in this season will open up Bruce's mind to what he is potentially capable of.

----------


## tabo61

I liked the Mr Freeze reveal at the end of the episode.

----------


## PretenderNX01

It's an interesting one. Is Freeze committing crimes to finance his work? Is he freezing random people as part of his work? Only the next half of the season will tell.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Honestly, I think the thing I love most about Gotham is the development of Bruce. I feel like for the first time we are getting a live action of Bruce the Detective. In most of his solo movies, they play up the martial arts/action hero vibe. Here, however, we truly get to see the mind of Bruce Wayne. It's absolutely awesome.


I agree. In the e future episodes I look forward to Bruce changing and growing. He is the world's greatest  detective. I actually wanna see that develop. I want some of his training shown while hes still in Gotham. Because even if the e seasons keep coming will he ever start his traveling/training years

----------


## Black_Adam

The Freeze reveal was cool (literally!) but yeah he looked a bit too much like Wentworth Miller's Captain Cold, would be nice if they had given him some sort of proto-fish bowl helmet, though this may be Victor before his accident.

So who will be the big bad going forward now that Theo is out of the picture? I'm guessing Freeze and Strange, with Freeze having an extended arc but Hugo Strange being the ultimate "endgame" villain of season 2.

----------


## Jadeb

Definitely needed a helmet. Those sunglasses looked straight out of Rocky Horror.

I was surprised how much I enjoyed the latest arc. For the first time, Bruce was given something to do. The most compelling storyline the show's given us so so far, IMO.

----------


## ManSinha

Sorry if this comes Johnny come lately but the one glaring error in Galavan's proposed trade with Brice was the Truth. How was Bruce to trust any name that Galavant provided him with, was the real one? In the first season, they already showed a patsy being set up for suicide by cop. Yet neither Alfred nor Bruce raised this even after knowing that Galavan was not on the up and up. Other than that I enjoyed the show - for reasons not delved into - I recorded them and watched all of the last six episodes back to back - does the Order of St Dumas have a parallel in the comic book lore?

----------


## PretenderNX01

> does the Order of St Dumas have a parallel in the comic book lore?


Yes, it's involved in the creation of Azrael (the famous Batman substitute Jean Paul Valley was established as being one of many Azraels over the years)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sa...of_Saint_Dumas




> How was Bruce to trust any name that Galavant provided him with, was the real one?


That is something I wondered too. It's possible if the Order was part of the Wayne's deaths they had always planned on the killer being sacrificed for their larger plan and just got did a favor by the GCPD looking for a fall-guy and guessing wrong. It's also possible Galavan is lying.

I can see how Bruce at this point could be blinded to that but yeah, Alfred should have said something. Maybe Lucius will point that out?

----------


## devil leonx

> I agree. In the e future episodes I look forward to Bruce changing and growing. He is the world's greatest  detective. I actually wanna see that develop. I want some of his training shown while hes still in Gotham. Because even if the e seasons keep coming will he ever start his traveling/training years


I do think that has been developing somewhat, I rather liked the whole torture scene twist as predictable as it was .

----------


## heyevaxx

'Gotham': New Artwork Teases "Wrath of the Villains"
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li...s-wrath-859162

Gotham Stories motion comic preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VRIzldfcU

----------


## hero talk

maybe gordon will be batman he is in the comics and it is his show :Smile:

----------


## anygill

How awesome is Morena Baccarin in this show! I haven't watched the latest episodes, but love the way they have shown Bruce Wayne's childhood.

----------


## heyevaxx

Fish Mooney's Returning to Gotham
http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2016/01...ning-to-gotham

----------


## ispacehead

> maybe gordon will be batman he is in the comics and it is his show


For all intents and purposes, Gordon IS Batman in this show.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

My main problem with this show, what really, really grates on me, is Riddler. They gave him a Two-Face origin story!!!! It's like they couldn't think of anything else, or didn't do research into anything else, so they just threw in a spilt-perosnailty arc and a predictable, weird, out-of-character love interest backstory to make Edward more "tragic" I guess. 

Oh, and I hate the way they have to tie everything together like this. Riddler working at GCPD, Selina meeting Bruce like right after his parents died, introducing the Joker in the very first season (which effectively put me off the show and is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen), and etc and etc. It ruins the Bat mythos, takes away the variety and uniqueness, and puts Bruce in a very bad and inconsistent light. That's not really the show-makers fault, just the idea of making a network television show about each Bat character's origin in the first place. 

Selina is perfectly cast though. One of the best Catwomans I've seen.

----------


## heyevaxx

How about the core qualities of the characters?

Gordon: steadfastly trying to be a good guy despite overwhelming odds.
Bullock: a rule bender/breaker that's not a crusader but is a good guy inside.
Penguin: a manipulative, power hungry organized crime player.
Riddler: weird, quirky, brilliant, and twisted.
Bruce: a hurt, determined, intense young man seeking justice.
Selina: street tough, survivor who is uncomfortable letting anyone close.

These basic templates for the tv characters are pretty close to the comics. Not exact for sure, but very good for an adaptation.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

Yeah, I guess you have a point there. Writers, no matter what medium they write in, have a certain artistic license and shouldn't have to worry too much about fan backlash and staying completely true to every single element about a character. People have different, personal takes on the stories and people inside these worlds and I've long said that one of the best things about comics is that sort of personal preference. Comics are just as much about staying the same as they are about change and reinvention and taking things to different levels. I guess I'm just not a fan of this particular adaptation.

*How about the core qualities of the characters?

Gordon: steadfastly trying to be a good guy despite overwhelming odds.

Bullock: a rule bender/breaker that's not a crusader but is a good guy inside.

Penguin: a manipulative, power hungry organized crime player.

Riddler: weird, quirky, brilliant, and twisted.

Bruce: a hurt, determined, intense young man seeking justice.

Selina: street tough, survivor who is uncomfortable letting anyone close.

These basic templates for the tv characters are pretty close to the comics. Not exact for sure, but very good for an adaptation.*

Agreed with everyone except Eddie. He should be a lot more sophisticated to me. That's kinda of his character. He dresses all classy (normally) and acts all cocksure and better than everyone else, but when the chips are down, and his back is against the wall, you get to see the angry, abused little child inside, crying out how smart he is and how everyone else is cheating. Personally, I think that's what makes him one of Batman's most deranged villains (definitely one of the most tragic).﻿

But this version of him is a lot more timid and geeky. Which is fine, as he _has_ had some of those aspects to his character in the past. They're just amplified here. Like with Zsasz. They really  downplayed parts of his character as well (mainly his insanity), and then brought other facets, like his chilling composure in dangerous situations, to a higher degree. 

*I'd say Alfred is very different from the comics but I think that's cause the show runners wanted more than one guy (Gordon) to be a butt kicker to maintain a lot of action.*

But he hit Selina!! Like punched a little girl right in the face! Lol, I know they wanted him to be more of an ally to Bruce and show how he helped heal his mental wounds a little, but that part was still pretty jarring, wouldn't you say? 

*And, though it's not a big deal, Lee has got 2 things in common with the comics Dr. Thompkins:
1) female
2) medical doctor
That's it! I don't mind tv Lee being super pretty, younger, and dating Gordon. I just think they missed a great opportunity showing the comics Dr Thompkins non-violent side. That would be great to throw at Jim amidst all the Gotham craziness. Who knows, maybe they'll do that when the show returns. The writers do seem to dig into the comics quite a bit so they gotta know that non-violence was Leslie's #1 thing.*

Lee's fine, but yeah I agree about the violence thing. Also think her relationship with Barbara (who I really hope doesn't turn into Harley) was kind of predictable and rushed, from what I saw of it at least. 

Oh and the bridge thing with Reggie was really spot-on for Selina's personality and very true to that character. Willing to kill for the good of those close to her, but also maybe holding some vulnerability about it (regret, grief, self-loathing). Of course, Catwoman will never let anyone in expect for Bruce, but only if he probes hard enough.

----------


## batnbreakfast

There's actually a great show about Gotham City. It's called True Detective Season 2 (season 1 while great isn't about a Gotham City type city)

----------


## heyevaxx

Interesting point

----------


## Nasty_Boys

Anybody know when they might announce about getting a season 3 or cancelling the series?

----------


## heyevaxx

No word yet on s3.

----------


## Aahz

> How about the core qualities of the characters?
> 
> Penguin: a manipulative, power hungry organized crime player.


One of the core qualities of the Penguin is that he is not insane, and not as violent as the other batman villains. And thats not the case with this Penguin.




> Riddler: weird, quirky, brilliant, and twisted.


It's similar with the Riddler, who is usually more an intellectual guy and doesn't kill.

----------


## heyevaxx

Given the realities of tv today and comic adaptations in general, I think Gotham has done a very good job overall at presenting the characters.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

> One of the core qualities of the Penguin is that he is not insane, and not as violent as the other batman villains. And thats not the case with this Penguin.


Yeah, in this series he belongs more in Arkham. With as much security and medication as they would give someone like Riddler or Joker. But I like Cobblepot more King-Pin style myself. I mean, it molds well with his desire to get that respect and own everything in spite of his laughable appearance (which is also clearly, but not surprisingly, absent in this story). He's supposed to have a Napoleon complex after all. Makes him more real and sympathetic, but also keeps the essential comic-book elements in regards to both his appearance and his more _non-violent_ abilities. 




> It's similar with the Riddler, who is usually more an intellectual guy and doesn't kill.


True about him being a more brain-stimulating Bat villain, but that doesn't mean he shies away from killing. In the comics, and the Arkham games, and even in BTAS, he'll kill almost anyone out of his own pride and/or to prove some sort of point and laugh at other peoples' "stupidity." Those motives are drastically different in this one (more timid, hurt-puppy, love-struck and spilt-persoanilty crisis, which I hate that they stole from Harvey). Because, see, what I find so interesting about him is that he's supposed to be this spectacular genius, right? But somehow . . . he's also such an idiot at the same time. He peacocks and compensates and constantly searches for validation and respect instead of just, truly, believing in himself. He's the guy who views everyone as some dim-witted, primitive thug, like his father, like _Batman_, but yet . . . contradicts himself and cries out for their attention. For their recognition. For them to give them and handshake and say "You're one smart S.O.B, Eddie." 

And god, I can relate to that so much more than Gotham's Nigma (who, the more I think about it, kind of rips off Jervis just as much as he does Dent). That's my favorite Riddler anyways, and the more human one too, I think. Oh well. My favorite story of his will probably always be the 1995 Detective Comics annual I read some time ago. It just really spoke to me, the way a classic episode of the Animated Series will do and will _continue_ to do every time I watch it.

----------


## tabo61

Looking forward to seeing Hugo Strange

----------


## PretenderNX01

> Looking forward to seeing Hugo Strange


He had an interesting calm to him which is a great contrast to the other characters, especially the other villains. The look was perfect. It'll be interesting to see more of his experiments.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> He had an interesting calm to him which is a great contrast to the other characters, especially the other villains. The look was perfect. It'll be interesting to see more of his experiments.


He makes an excellent Strange, so I'm in total agreement with you.

----------


## tabo61

I enjoyed the plot line where Freeze was snatching people with his freeze gun to experiment on.

----------


## Toreador

Glad they went with the classic Mr. Freeze origin. Don't care for the nu52 origin, makes him unique among the villains.

----------


## PretenderNX01

> No word yet on s3.


Fox has been random in announcing which shows were renewed. Empire of course was renewed but then so was Scream Queens and it isn't nearly as watched as Gotham.

Maybe they were waiting to see how Gotham returned after the break? I know last year that caused a big drop in ratings but Gotham returned as steady as ever and even beat Supergirl in the 18-49 demo.
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...y-feb-29-2016/




> I enjoyed the plot line where Freeze was snatching people with his freeze gun to experiment on.





> Glad they went with the classic Mr. Freeze origin. Don't care for the nu52 origin, makes him unique among the villains.


Yeah it was interesting seeing his origin playing out rather than just as a flashback in the cartoon. I wonder how he and Strange are going to get along?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

_Gotham_ is a good bet to be renewed, so don't worry about it, guys.

----------


## devil leonx

> I enjoyed the plot line where Freeze was snatching people with his freeze gun to experiment on.


I have to admit i like that idea a lot, also like how his wife was loyal to him despite it all...very untypical.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> _Gotham_ is a good bet to be renewed, so don't worry about it, guys.


Gotham is currently the most popular show on Fox that hasn't already been renewed. No other show got better ratings on Fox this week than Gotham. And the only one TV by the Numbers lists as a Sure Bet for Fox.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Gotham is currently the most popular show on Fox that hasn't already been renewed. No other show got better ratings on Fox this week than Gotham. And the only one TV by the Numbers lists as a Sure Bet for Fox.


That's why I'm not worrying about it.  :Smile:

----------


## Starter Set

That episode with Freeze was pretty darn good. (is Nora charming or what?) And Strange was so creepy.

Good story, good execution, good characters and almost no Jim "one facial expression" Gordon.

Sweeeeet.

----------


## tabo61

That's a big surprise that Nora's really dead unless Hugo lied to Fries and she's stored somewhere in Arkham

----------


## Mister BoMan

BD Wong is rocking it as Hugo Strange. Really liked what they are doing with Mr. Freeze.

----------


## blackbolt396

B.D. Wong has made this must see tv for me , the last two episodes of gotham has been great.

----------


## Panfoot

Wong is really knocking it out of the park as Hugo Strange. I think they did Mr. Freeze pretty okay so far, I was surprised to actually see him alive again with the classic Mr. Freeze look. I think they did a pretty good job with his suit, good blend between somewhat realistic, but still being this big clunky thing.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> Wong is really knocking it out of the park as Hugo Strange. I think they did Mr. Freeze pretty okay so far, I was surprised to actually see him alive again with the classic Mr. Freeze look. I think they did a pretty good job with his suit, good blend between somewhat realistic, but still being this big clunky thing.


Agreed.  Although he still needs to lose his hair to look like the true Mr. Freeze.

----------


## Frontier

> Agreed.  Although he still needs to lose his hair to look like the true Mr. Freeze.


Yeah, that was probably my only big disappointment with the look.

I do hope they update his armor design so that the helmet is cone-shaped.

----------


## fin5

Im loving this show and with Lucifer after this it should be called Guilty pleaser night on fox

----------


## tabo61

I liked that ending with Nygma drawing a question mark on that Gordon photo.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

So Malone won't kill babies and he charges twice for women what he does for men...I wonder if there's a discount for old people?




> I liked that ending with Nygma drawing a question mark on that Gordon photo.


Yeah, although it was sad that he's turning on Gordon who, from his perspective, is just trying to help out his co-worker and friend after the possible disappearance of his ex.

----------


## Nasty_Boys

Show got renewed for a 3rd season!

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Show got renewed for a 3rd season!


Which also means it's getting renewed for a 4th season no matter what!

----------


## Kirby101

Wrong forum

----------


## tabo61

Pretty clever how Nygma framed  Gordon.

----------


## Desean101101

> Pretty clever how Nygma framed  Gordon.


Yup Nygma got Gordon real good.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

I'm always amazed with the extreme lawlessness of the city of Gotham juxtaposed with it's super-speedy judicial process.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I'm always amazed with the extreme lawlessness of the city of Gotham juxtaposed with it's super-speedy judicial process.


You would think the trial of Gotham's "top cop" Jim Gordon would be the trial of the century, but then we get a time-skip and the verdict is already delivered  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Granted, Galavan's trial probably would've been the trial of the century if it had gone through. Gotham is certainly not a legal drama  :Wink: .

----------


## tabo61

That prison episode was pretty good.  That corrupted warden make's a good villain.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> That prison episode was pretty good.  That corrupted warden make's a good villain.


Good episode. Too bad about Puck, though.

----------


## ouroboros

> Good episode. Too bad about Puck, though.


Was Puck supposed to have any sort of comics-analogue?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Was Puck supposed to have any sort of comics-analogue?


I don't know. I have been running that through my brain the past few days myself.

----------


## heyevaxx

What a great episode! And mostly with main cast members being featured. I hope the rest of the season goes like this.

----------


## ABH

Not bad, but a bit of a reset for Penguin, Gordon, Bruce... and then there's Barbara...

Things have really changed for Eddie, though.

----------


## tabo61

I liked how every time Nygma said a riddle to Gordon he knew the answer.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

anyone else disappointed in how we could have had a real batman tv show like this? if only WB didn't think movies were the only way to generate interest for their characters

----------


## PurpleGlovez

So, this show is absolutely insane, but god help me, I've really been enjoying this season. My ultimate hope is that they eventually do a Reaper storyline. The Reaper is in that small box of storytelling opportunities that actually makes sense for this time frame, and I've been thinking about it ever since this show was announced.

*spoilers for this episode*

With that being said, you know what? This new Galavan-as-Azrael thing is really cool too. At least they've built it up over the course of the entire season and it really feels deserved, like they didn't just plop Azrael into an episode and go "well, there he is!" So, I would actually be okay if they massaged this into the canon. The idea that, before Jean Paul's father, this guy called himself Azrael briefly and they can even keep his whole mayor storyline and whatnot. I wouldn't mind them bringing Fish Mooney over too. This show is actually adding some things to the mythos that I kind of like, or in some cases at least don't mind, which surprises me.

But yeah, it would debatably be cooler if we could just get a straight-up Batman show, with some of these brilliant actors playing the fully-realized versions of their characters (Cory Michael Smith! He was absolutely chilling last episode.) And it's interesting they're having Hugo Strange be so involved with the Wayne deaths - but remember, they could still throw us a curveball at the last second with the Court of Owls coming up and there's still the possibility that Matches Malone wasn't actually the one who killed them (they'll have to pull some fancy footwork with that one, though.) All in all, this show isn't perfect, but I'd still say it's a must-watch for Batman fans or fans of gritty-but-still-colorful crime drama.

----------


## Bukdiah

This show went full camp and is so unintentionally funny. Last episode with the girl was the talon made me laugh so hard. Little Bruce Wayne in a turtleneck was looking like a Steve Jobs type lmao. Theo Galavan shouting "Azrael!" repeatedly was also pretty funny.

----------


## Bukdiah

> anyone else disappointed in how we could have had a real batman tv show like this? if only WB didn't think movies were the only way to generate interest for their characters


For sure, I was hoping for Gotham Central. What we have here is an abomination of a show that is so bad that it's good. You should watch it for laughs. There's an episode where Alfred punches Bruce square in the face during a sparring session and an episode where he bitch slaps Selina Kyle LMAO!

----------


## tabo61

Interesting that Mr Freeze didn't wear a helmet.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

I'm probably one of the few people on Earth that like Barbara Kean, so I had a lot of fun with her coming back sane, but still crazy Barbara bad-ass.  I was sure she was up to something when Jim was tied to the chair, but it was still fun to see how her plan played out. I'm glad they kept Barbara and figured out something to do with her.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I'm probably one of the few people on Earth that like Barbara Kean, so I had a lot of fun with her coming back sane, but still crazy Barbara bad-ass.  I was sure she was up to something when Jim was tied to the chair, but it was still fun to see how her plan played out. I'm glad they kept Barbara and figured out something to do with her.


Erin Richards seems to me like she has improved quite a bit in the acting department since the first season. Back then, her talents seemed, for the most part, only to be that she was pretty and leggy. Now I enjoy it when she wigs out, while the non-crazy moments seem acted better.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> For sure, I was hoping for Gotham Central. What we have here is an abomination of a show that is so bad that it's good. You should watch it for laughs. There's an episode where Alfred punches Bruce square in the face during a sparring session and an episode where he bitch slaps Selina Kyle LMAO!


But it is a good show. It has its problems, but it gets the characterization of so many characters so right. It's definitely part comedy however.

----------


## Bukdiah

> But it is a good show. It has its problems, but it gets the characterization of so many characters so right. It's definitely part comedy however.


That's your opinion man. You are most definitely not gonna convince me that it is good show lol. Ben Mackenzie cannot act to save his life and always speaks like he is growling. A little Bruce Wayne is hilarious because of how precocious he is. His vocabulary and sentence structure is so awkward at times because they try to make him mature for his age.

Selina is probably the dumbest shit I ever seen. They had her wearing bandoliers and toting shotguns. They also gave her the quotable "Old enough to shoot you!" line lol. Aw man, show is just a hot mess. The first season especially (Barbara goes crazy outta no where) and was a run of the mill procedural. The second season they just said "Screw it" and went FULL camp. It's like a Saturday Morning cartoon on Mondays at prime time. I watch it but not because it's good. It's so me and my coworkers can say random lines like "SACRILEGE!" and burst out laughing.

----------


## ispacehead

> Not bad, but a bit of a reset for Penguin, Gordon, Bruce... and then there's Barbara...
> 
> Things have really changed for Eddie, though.


I dig it. I like the way they keep this show moving without dwelling too long in any scenario. 

This was a fun episode. Once again, in the absence of Batman, Gordon fills the role, stepping outside the lines in his interrogation techniques. "WHERE IS THE PHILOSOPHER?? DON'T MAKE ME HURT YOU."

They are bending the lore a little, but it's working for me.

----------


## GreenLanternRanger

I honestly don't see how anyone could see this show as campy, Batman 66 is camp, Gotham is what happens when you mix Tim Burton with a Sociopath.


  Anywho I've been catching up on Gotham and have to say its been interesting overall, I think the biggest thing for me that was a big nono was when Oswald killed the dog with that poison.   Killing dogs is not cool man.  Kill all the people you want, but leave the household pets out of it.

 But yea, other then that, still an interesting show.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I honestly don't see how anyone could see this show as campy, Batman 66 is camp, Gotham is what happens when you mix Tim Burton with a Sociopath.


That's what I have been saying all along. It's not like Joel Schumacher is in charge of production.

----------


## Bukdiah

> That's what I have been saying all along. It's not like Joel Schumacher is in charge of production.


It sure feels like it sometimes. Can I remind you guys of the MERCENARY store where criminals purchase illicit goods? They had shopping carts and people yelling over intercoms like "Clean up in the explosives aisle..." That Firefly episode was way too silly and funny.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It sure feels like it sometimes. Can I remind you guys of the MERCENARY store where criminals purchase illicit goods? They had shopping carts and people yelling over intercoms like "Clean up in the explosives aisle..." That Firefly episode was way too silly and funny.


There's definitely dark humor on the show, no doubt about it. However, the Adam West show was actually nominated for best comedy for its first season, while I can't see _Gotham_ remotely ever being honored the same way.

----------


## Inhuman X

> This show went full camp and is so unintentionally funny. Last episode with the girl was the talon made me laugh so hard. Little Bruce Wayne in a turtleneck was looking like a Steve Jobs type lmao. Theo Galavan shouting "Azrael!" repeatedly was also pretty funny.


Galvan... It was kind of Disney on ice I'll admit. Like he was singing to the crowd while doing a figure eight... Oh man. I hope they get Azrael interesting. Maybe back into comic print.

----------


## Bukdiah

> There's definitely dark humor on the show, no doubt about it. However, the Adam West show was actually nominated for best comedy for its first season, while I can't see _Gotham_ remotely ever being honored the same way.


Wow, I didn't know that about the Adam West Batman. I actually never watched them since I wasn't even alive then. I think Gotham is more unintentionally funny if anything. That's why I laugh so hard because it takes itself seriously, but has outrageous stories and moments in it. Sure they try to inject their own dark humor, but I feel the best funny moments happen unintentionally. Like, Alfred slapping Selina was supposed to be a turning point, but I almost coughed up a lung laughing.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Galvan... It was kind of Disney on ice I'll admit. Like he was singing to the crowd while doing a figure eight... Oh man. I hope they get Azrael interesting. Maybe back into comic print.


LMAO I'm just mad such a lame guy like Theo is gonna wear the Azrael mantle. This is the man who said to his niece Silver, "My what a little vixen you've become."  The costume looks amazing though.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Wow, I didn't know that about the Adam West Batman. I actually never watched them since I wasn't even alive then. I think Gotham is more unintentionally funny if anything. That's why I laugh so hard because it takes itself seriously, but has outrageous stories and moments in it. Sure they try to inject their own dark humor, but I feel the best funny moments happen unintentionally. Like, Alfred slapping Selina was supposed to be a turning point, but I almost coughed up a lung laughing.


For someone who doesn't like this show, you sure want to talk about it a lot.

The show has a lot of quality aspects to it. You should try to appreciate them if you're going to talk this much about the show.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

so we were back for 2 episodes and then suddenly another break....

----------


## Bukdiah

> For someone who doesn't like this show, you sure want to talk about it a lot.
> 
> The show has a lot of quality aspects to it. You should try to appreciate them if you're going to talk this much about the show.


I do like the show. It is really funny. It crossed the, it's so bad it's good stage for me a long time ago. I could find myself enjoying movies like The Happening or The Room because they are the same way. I'm sure you felt that way about some shows/movies too?

As far as quality is concerned...like what? I do like the props and costumes. They shoot in New York, but did a great job adding additional structures and such that makes you think it's really Gotham. They also do a good job with obscuring the time period it takes place in. Cars look very boxy like the early 90s but then they have some advanced technology thrown in too. Reminds me of Batman: The Animated Series cartoon.

----------


## Bukdiah

> so we were back for 2 episodes and then suddenly another break....


I blame The Walking Dead for this. I think they made it the "cool" thing to do lol.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

> For someone who doesn't like this show, you sure want to talk about it a lot.
> 
> The show has a lot of quality aspects to it. You should try to appreciate them if you're going to talk this much about the show.


Not my argument but, I'm sorry, this is a weird quote to me. Why does it bother you so much? I know a thousands of things that I hate that I only find healthy to discuss why I hate it. That just makes sense to me, I have to get it out there. It's called expressing yourself.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

> I do like the show. It is really funny. It crossed the, it's so bad it's good stage for me a long time ago. I could find myself enjoying movies like The Happening or The Room because they are the same way. I'm sure you felt that way about some shows/movies too?
> 
> As far as quality is concerned...like what? I do like the props and costumes. They shoot in New York, but did a great job adding additional structures and such that makes you think it's really Gotham. They also do a good job with obscuring the time period it takes place in. Cars look very boxy like the early 90s but then they have some advanced technology thrown in too. Reminds me of Batman: The Animated Series cartoon.


Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. This show, to me, it seems like it's on the fence on whether or not it should embrace its comic-book elements or just stave them off completely. I also think that it suffers from trying to be too gritty and "realistic" in order to compensate for all its fanciful elements instead of just using them to tell good, meaningful stories. I also feel like they're cramming a bunch of stuff down our throats the whole time; like, Mr. Freeze already? Seriously? Gordon is basically Batman before Bruce ever got the chance, Joker is a copy-cat, and the bad guys just so generally out-of-character that, yes, it's pretty freaking funny. Some scenes that are supposed to be "dark" also make me laugh, like that frozen head in the windshield thing. It's a very lazily written show, is the thing, and every time I start to pick it up again--I love the characters in the comics and I think the concept could be really interesting if placed in the right hands--I immediately drop it, because that's how bad it is.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. This show, to me, it seems like it's on the fence on whether or not it should embrace its comic-book elements or just stave them off completely. I also think that it suffers from trying to be too gritty and "realistic" in order to compensate for all its fanciful elements instead of just using them to tell good, meaningful stories.* I also feel like they're cramming a bunch of stuff down our throats the whole time*; like, Mr. Freeze already? Seriously? Gordon is basically Batman before Bruce ever got the chance, Joker is a copy-cat, and the bad guys just so generally out-of-character that, yes, it's pretty freaking funny. Some scenes that are supposed to be "dark" also make me laugh, like that frozen head in the windshield thing. It's a very lazily written show, is the thing, and every time I start to pick it up again--I love the characters in the comics and I think the concept could be really interesting if placed in the right hands--I immediately drop it, because that's how bad it is.


Agreed. I think the Riddler's appearance now is kinda weird because he'd be a lot older by the time Bruce becomes Batman. Also, the not so subtle nods to people's future characters such as having Selina's nickname be Cat and Pamela's as Ivy. It's almost like they wanna remind the audience "HEY, it's a Batman show! Did you get our hint?!" then tell their own random stories using the existing characters. I feel the show bastardizes the crap outta the Batman mythos, but I learned not to take it too seriously anymore. I started to enjoy it more if I viewed it as an "Elseworld" campy comedy with some action thrown in. I wish I didn't have to though.

----------


## Nasty_Boys

So there's only 4 episodes left of this season and their was an article saying Clayface and Mad Hatter would appear in Season 2 and we have yet to see them.  Hope they haven't been forgotton.

----------


## ispacehead

> so we were back for 2 episodes and then suddenly another break....


Lining themselves up for sweeps week.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I do like the show. It is really funny. It crossed the, it's so bad it's good stage for me a long time ago. I could find myself enjoying movies like The Happening or The Room because they are the same way. I'm sure you felt that way about some shows/movies too?
> 
> As far as quality is concerned...like what? I do like the props and costumes. They shoot in New York, but did a great job adding additional structures and such that makes you think it's really Gotham. They also do a good job with obscuring the time period it takes place in. Cars look very boxy like the early 90s but then they have some advanced technology thrown in too. Reminds me of Batman: The Animated Series cartoon.


Incredible acting from several of the actors, spot on portrayals of some characters(Riddler, Catwoman, Bruce Wayne) , and whenever creative liberty is taken it usually improves the character(Firefly, Penguin, Alfred, Harvey Bullock, Silver St.cloud, Bruce Wayne and Catwoman can be included here as well), compelling narrative. Ironically enough, the weakest character and performance on the entire show is Gordon himself. 

You were complaining about something ridiculous before - Selina using a shotgun and wearing a bandolier, but it made sense for her to do that in that context. Fish Mooney took her in, and because Selina yearns for a parental figure in her life, she admired her and followed her.

However, there are two problems I've seen related to Selina, one relates to the above event. At no point is it ever shown that Selina views Fish as a surrogate mother. Instead Fish was pointlessly sent to Who-Cares island to deal with the Dollmaker instead of being shown interacting with Fish.  Secondly, when she's saving Bruce from the Order of St. Dumas, she's NOT using a gun. She's fighting men twice her size, despite making fun of Bruce for learning how to fight in season 1. That was genuinely laughable. 

My point is, yes this show has problems, but on other levels it knocks it out of the park.




> Agreed. I think the Riddler's appearance now is kinda weird because he'd be a lot older by the time Bruce becomes Batman. Also, the not so subtle nods to people's future characters such as having Selina's nickname be Cat and Pamela's as Ivy. It's almost like they wanna remind the audience "HEY, it's a Batman show! Did you get our hint?!" then tell their own random stories using the existing characters. I feel the show bastardizes the crap outta the Batman mythos, but I learned not to take it too seriously anymore. I started to enjoy it more if I viewed it as an "Elseworld" campy comedy with some action thrown in. I wish I didn't have to though.


Many of Batman's enemies are older than him. Nygma at best is 15 years older. That's not much. 

The nicknames are annoying. I want them to change her name back to Pamela Isley.

They've told some amazing stories with existing characters.




> Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. This show, to me, it seems like it's on the fence on whether or not it should embrace its comic-book elements or just stave them off completely. I also think that it suffers from trying to be too gritty and "realistic" in order to compensate for all its fanciful elements instead of just using them to tell good, meaningful stories. I also feel like they're cramming a bunch of stuff down our throats the whole time; like, Mr. Freeze already? Seriously? Gordon is basically Batman before Bruce ever got the chance, Joker is a copy-cat, and the bad guys just so generally out-of-character that, yes, it's pretty freaking funny. Some scenes that are supposed to be "dark" also make me laugh, like that frozen head in the windshield thing. It's a very lazily written show, is the thing, and every time I start to pick it up again--I love the characters in the comics and I think the concept could be really interesting if placed in the right hands--I immediately drop it, because that's how bad it is.


But it's not lazily written. There's a lot of depth to the show. 

Which villains are OOC? As I've said before,  some are written spot on, and those that have been subjected to creative liberty are better off for it, most of the time anyway. 

Gordon IS NOT Batman. He's failing left and right. He's becoming corrupted by the city. He's fighting a losing battle. Are you watching the same show?

This is why I mind your "self-expression." You're just so off the mark. Somethings are a matter of opinion(people use that word like it's worth something), but other times I can't help but ask, are you watching the same show?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

i think the people making the show want to make a batman tv series so badly that they go over the top with providing batman villains and elements

i don't think they ever had any intention on making this a jim gordon fights the criminal underworld story  they wanted to make this more about the various batman characters than him

and it shows when he's the least interesting character on the show

----------


## Bukdiah

> *Incredible acting from several of the actors*, spot on portrayals of some characters(Riddler, Catwoman, Bruce Wayne)


I'm a little iffy on that, but as long as one of those actors isn't Jada Pinkett, it's cool lol. Good acting is pretty subjective anyway, so live and let live. I'm not familiar enough with Riddler or Catwoman to speak on their accurate portrayals. I do not remember Riddler having a split personality thing going on though (talking to his reflection in the mirror, etc). I've never seen a kid Bruce Wayne portrayal either, aside from Hush, so I cannot really speak on that.




> and whenever *creative liberty is taken it usually improves the character*(Firefly, Penguin, Alfred, Harvey Bullock, Silver St.cloud, Bruce Wayne and Catwoman can be included here as well), compelling narrative. Ironically enough, the weakest character and performance on the entire show is Gordon himself.


How? I felt Alfred was pretty unrecognizable at times except for the nods of his skill with firearms (though in the comics, it was mostly a shotgun?) and how he can administer first aid. His skills are all over the place in comics, so I guess anything is possible. This Gotham Alfred had Bruce Wayne use his dad's watch as brass knuckles to beat up a kid lol. He then squats over the kid and says something along the lines of, "Yeah, he almost killed you. And I just stood and watched" WTF is that? lol

Robin Taylor who plays Penguin is so...meh and all over the place. He's basically reprising his role in Accepted

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> This was a fun episode. Once again, in the absence of Batman, Gordon fills the role, stepping outside the lines in his interrogation techniques. "WHERE IS THE PHILOSOPHER?? DON'T MAKE ME HURT YOU."
> 
> They are bending the lore a little, but it's working for me.


Kind of makes you wonder if it'll even be possible for Bruce to hide the fact that he's Batman from Gordon or Selina.

----------


## josai21

In Comics/cartoons we don't see a lot of Alfred before Bruce became the Batman. The Alfred of the batman is the servant. The support role.

Here, we have the guardian. And let's be honest, any man who raises a kid to the point where that boy becomes the Batman has to be a little screwed up in the head himself.

It makes sense to me. In recent comics we've seen Alfred have his military history expanded.

What are Alfred's core traits?

Loves Bruce and wants to protect him? Check 

Permissive? Check

Servant? Check 

Just throwing out thoughts? What are the core values of Alfred and how does this version meet/differentiate from those values.

----------


## Bukdiah

> In Comics/cartoons we don't see a lot of Alfred before Bruce became the Batman. The Alfred of the batman is the servant. The support role.
> 
> Here, we have the guardian. And let's be honest, *any man who raises a kid to the point where that boy becomes the Batman has to be a little screwed up in the head himself*.
> 
> It makes sense to me. In recent comics we've seen Alfred have his military history expanded.
> 
> What are Alfred's core traits?
> 
> Loves Bruce and wants to protect him? Check 
> ...


I'm not entirely sure if that was ever the case; that Alfred's upbringing caused the birth of Batman. I always thought Bruce did it on his own accord.

----------


## josai21

> I'm not entirely sure if that was ever the case; that Alfred's upbringing caused the birth of Batman. I always thought Bruce did it on his own accord.


I wouldn't say his upbringing caused it, but he certainly allowed it.

And then joined Bruce in it. So I feel this stays true to the core of the character while at the same time modernizing the character.

This isn't the age where plot holes are easily forgiven. There must be rational. The writers get flamed enough as is...imagine if they didn't care and simply wrote with the fantastical philosophy of older comics. 

Most writers and readers today find it much harder to suspend their disbelief in a comic book than our counterparts from previous decades.

----------


## tabo61

I enjoyed the Azrael episode involving Nygma locked up in Arkham.  I'm surprised that Strange didn't put him through shock therapy like he did to Cobblepot.

----------


## Panfoot

> I enjoyed the Azrael episode involving Nygma locked up in Arkham.  I'm surprised that Strange didn't put him through shock therapy like he did to Cobblepot.


I assumed he hasn't really bothered with Nygma yet because he's been so per-occupied with Azrael.

----------


## Bukdiah

Hugo Strange with the "I AM your father...and Lord" line had me in stitches. Theo's look of surprise like "DAD?!" was funny too. They gave Azrael a very good costume.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Oh man I was laughing so hard while watching this, Azrael is comedy gold who'd have thunk that,Hugo had plenty of funny moments too.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Oh man I was laughing so hard while watching this, Azrael is comedy gold who'd have thunk that,Hugo had plenty of funny moments too.


Azrael: "Since you lead these men, we can parley. Let me kill Jim Gordon and you can leave"

Nathaniel: "GO TO HELL"

Azrael: "I've already been. You go!"

lol. How Hugo and his assistant speak to each other is pretty funny too. They have very long, draw out words and low volume "oooohs" thrown in.

----------


## Nasty_Boys

Is their anywhere online I can watch the Azrael episode?  I forgot to record and doesn't look like fox re airs it later in the week???

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

I was immediately reminded of this cartoon when Nygma was searching through Arkham and they played that song:







> Is their anywhere online I can watch the Azrael episode?  I forgot to record and doesn't look like fox re airs it later in the week???


Check Fox.com, they have full episodes of Gotham.

----------


## ispacehead

> Kind of makes you wonder if it'll even be possible for Bruce to hide the fact that he's Batman from Gordon or Selina.


Or it lends to the thought that Gordon always knew, or figures it out early at least.

I like what they've done with 'Azrael.' They've left it so that the Azrael we know remains unaffected, but still created a character with the same nuances. He's wacky JPV Azrael, talking to ghosts and freaking out in his head.

Interesting also the role they've given Hugo Strange, hiding behind it all and creating Batman's future foes.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

I pray they do right by Jervis (my favorite Bat villain). When he appears, it'll be the first live-action appearance of him, if I'm not mistaken, and I really hope they don't just use him there for shock value, like "oh, look at this pervert, look at all the awful things he can do with his mind-control, he's really dark!" No. Write him like he's an actual character, a truly broken person who'll do anything to be happy, and not just some plot device to keep the story fresh... like half the characters on the show.  :Frown: 

 They're gonna ruin him, aren't they?

----------


## devil leonx

> Hugo Strange with the "I AM your father...and Lord" line had me in stitches. Theo's look of surprise like "DAD?!" was funny too. They gave Azrael a very good costume.


I was surprised by Azrael costume...its looks really damn good, it kind of annoys me though that he seems to some kind of inspiration for young Bruce.

----------


## Bukdiah

> I was surprised by Azrael costume...its looks really damn good, it kind of annoys me though that he seems to some kind of inspiration for young Bruce.


For sure. I saw the leaks for the costume a while back and was amazed. Onto Bruce...yeah, it seems like he was all googly eyed and awestruck of Azrael beating people up and disappearing into the shadows. Quite the role model I guess...lol

----------


## Bukdiah

> I pray they do right by Jervis (my favorite Bat villain). When he appears, it'll be the first live-action appearance of him, if I'm not mistaken, and I really hope they don't just use him there for shock value, like "oh, look at this pervert, look at all the awful things he can do with his mind-control, he's really dark!" No. Write him like he's an actual character, a truly broken person who'll do anything to be happy, and not just some plot device to keep the story fresh... like half the characters on the show. 
> 
>  They're gonna ruin him, aren't they?


Prepare to have your world shattered! I actually don't know much about Mad Hatter outside his Alice in Wonderland fascination.

----------


## Unfinishedsentenc

> Prepare to have your world shattered! I actually don't know much about Mad Hatter outside his Alice in Wonderland fascination.


Well, I hope they do their research and not just go by that  :Smile:  He's a lot more than just his obsession.... or at least he is in some stories.

----------


## Panfoot

Oh boy that ending was amazing.

----------


## GreenLanternRanger

Well today's episode was entertaining.  Gotta say, when they used a Bazooka against Azreal, I cracked up.

----------


## tabo61

I enjoy the fights Alfred get's into.  The one with Azarel  tonight was pretty good

----------


## Godzilla2099

> Well today's episode was entertaining.  Gotta say, when they used a Bazooka against Azreal, I cracked up.


A guy who is fast enough to escape multiple officers shooting at him just stands there to be killed by a bazooka?  Kind of rolled my eyes at that scene.

Wong is doing a fantastic job portraying Strange.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

did anyone else notice during the preview for next week's episode they showed someone on a television screen who seems to see Hugo Strange as a failure and said person wears a mask that invokes a court of owls vibe

----------


## Tuck

Uhm . . .  . .

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Well today's episode was entertaining.  Gotta say, when they used a Bazooka against Azreal, I cracked up.



I know, A BAZOOKA!,  I was laughing and clapping after that one.  I feel sure that Hugo Strange isn't going to bring him back to life this time.

----------


## The Whovian

This was one of the better episodes of late. I loved seeing Selina creeping around like Catwoman would. That was cool. And the end with Azrael, Bruce, Alfred and Penguin was really neat.

----------


## Bukdiah

Holy shit, this episode was hilarious. It's great they went full camp and said "Fuck it, we'll bring a bazooka" lmao. One of the dopest comedies around. Did you guys see the previews for next episode? "I'm Fish Mooney, bitch" is the new "I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!" LMAO

----------


## AdamFTF

> I pray they do right by Jervis (my favorite Bat villain). When he appears, *it'll be the first live-action appearance of him, if I'm not mistaken,* and I really hope they don't just use him there for shock value, like "oh, look at this pervert, look at all the awful things he can do with his mind-control, he's really dark!" No. Write him like he's an actual character, a truly broken person who'll do anything to be happy, and not just some plot device to keep the story fresh... like half the characters on the show. 
> 
>  They're gonna ruin him, aren't they?


Regarding the bolded part, The Mad Hatter previously appeared on the 1966 Batman show.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> Uhm . . .  . .


Apparently, according to the Azrael legend, no weapon forged can kill him.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Regarding the bolded part, The Mad Hatter previously appeared on the 1966 Batman show.


that wasn't Jervis though but the imposter mad hatter

----------


## AdamFTF

> that wasn't Jervis though but the imposter mad hatter


Oh, that.

But at the time, that was Jervis Tetch.  The whole "it was an impostor" story didn't happen until after his appearances.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Apparently, according to the Azrael legend, no weapon forged can kill him.


Good thing Butch didn't use a weapon that required forging to make.  Just a rolled metal tube packed with explosives.

----------


## The Lonely Man

> Apparently, according to the Azrael legend, no weapon forged can kill him.


Kinda like The Judge in season 2 of Buffy.

Easily explained away with a , that was then comment.

----------


## tabo61

Clayface!!!!!

----------


## AdamFTF

> Clayface!!!!!


Yes!  We also got more of Firefly and Riddler, as well as Fish Mooney resurrected with super-powers (not sure if this is a good thing, because I felt like that character already served her purpose to the narrative), and cameo appearances by Ivy and Cornelius Stirk of all people.

----------


## Coco Loco

> Yes!  We also got more of Firefly and Riddler, as well as Fish Mooney resurrected with super-powers (not sure if this is a good thing, because I felt like that character already served her purpose to the narrative), and cameo appearances by Ivy and Cornelius Stirk of all people.


Fish's powers are interesting.  Pheromone-based, perhaps?  I wonder if that's an element they're establishing to eventually use with Ivy.

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> Fish's powers are interesting.  Pheromone-based, perhaps?  I wonder if that's an element they're establishing to eventually use with Ivy.


That would explain her brief appearance in the episode.  It's crazy how the science on this show is even more comic booky than on The Flash.  I feel like Strange wasn't trying hard enough to see if these resurrected people still had their memories.  Selina was getting through to Firefly after some trying and yet Strange tries to give Fish a new identity almost instantly.

----------


## Aioros22

That first episode of Azrael was so good. Such a great atmosphere that was lost in the follow up. 

Ah well.

----------


## Nasty_Boys

I'm hoping the final scene next week will be Jerome resurrected and laughing.

----------


## tabo61

Bruce Wayne was cloned????

----------


## Panfoot

I don't even know where to start with that finale, can't wait for season 3 (and I hope for plenty more I'M FISH MOONEY BITCH).

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I don't even know where to start with that finale, can't wait for season 3 (and I hope for plenty more I'M FISH MOONEY BITCH).


Same here. BTW, Clayface Jim was hilarious.

----------


## Panfoot

> Same here. BTW, Clayface Jim was hilarious.


Clayface Jim was great, I also really enjoyed that scene with Penguin figuring out where to put the head in the room (I hope Barbara sticks around working with Penguin), and the scene of Jim and Lucius being dumbfounded in trying to diffuse the bomb. Really the only complaint I have is that those court of owl masks are 10 times less cool than the original comic versions.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> I'm hoping the final scene next week will be Jerome resurrected and laughing.


Same.  Jerome was light years more intriguing and scary than Fish Mooney, Azrael, and most of those villains combined.

Such a colossal waste of talent

----------


## kevink31593

> Bruce Wayne was cloned????


Or, that was Thomas Wayne Jr.

----------


## Toreador

> Or, that was Thomas Wayne Jr.


That was my thought.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Yup, Thomas Wayne created Pinewood farms to help his son, the Court then took it over.

----------


## devil leonx

> I don't even know where to start with that finale, can't wait for season 3 (and I hope for plenty more I'M FISH MOONEY BITCH).


While I agree, I think its amazing how all over the place the writing is for this show, and though its bad all around its still quite entertaining and over the top I cannot help but like it.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> While I agree, I think its amazing how all over the place the writing is for this show, and though its bad all around its still quite entertaining and over the top I cannot help but like it.


Gotham is one of those shows that are so stupid and over the top that that is what makes it fun to watch.  Sort of like Supergirl or the old Adam West Batman.  I seriously think the writers have their tongue in cheek when they write this. Seriously, disarming a nuclear bomb that looked like it was stolen from  Los Alamos by using a glass of water?

----------


## Drz

While the season finale was rather weak, the overall quality of season 2 was fantastic!

    8/10 easily for the entire season, it was a lot of dumb fun with gore, awesome characters and flatout stupidity.

----------


## GreenLanternRanger

Gotham Season 2 will be out on DVD & Blu-Ray in August.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Gotham-Season-2/22297

----------


## tabo61

Alfred sure does get his butt kicked a lot lately.

----------


## GreenLanternRanger

The season 3 premire felt kind of rushed to me.

----------


## williamtheday

I'm gonna miss Dr. Peabody...

----------


## tabo61

This Wayne doppelganger has me wondering. Was he ever cloned in the comics?

----------


## ABH

> This Wayne doppelganger has me wondering. Was he ever cloned in the comics?


With the Court involved this season, I'm halfway expecting them to call the doppelganger "Thomas", and _try_ to pass him off as Bruce's long lost brother. But yeah, he could be a clone.

----------


## signalman112

The addition of Jamie Chung playing Valeria Vale has been a huge plus.
Nice to see Hugo Strange, that's good, the bad, he is stuck working with the most disliked character on TV, Fish.

----------


## The Whovian

> With the Court involved this season, I'm halfway expecting them to call the doppelganger "Thomas", and _try_ to pass him off as Bruce's long lost brother. But yeah, he could be a clone.


That's the first thing I thought of when he appeared at the end of last season

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

> The addition of Jamie Chung playing Valeria Vale has been a huge plus.
> Nice to see Hugo Strange, that's good, the bad, he is stuck working with the most disliked character on TV, Fish.


the show is stock piling the most beautiful women on tv; Morena Baccarin, Jessica Lucas, Erin Richards and now Jamie Chung. Reminds me of all the foxes running around on Buffy TVS (or any Whedon show) back in the day.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> the show is stock piling the most beautiful women on tv; Morena Baccarin, Jessica Lucas, Erin Richards and now Jamie Chung. Reminds me of all the foxes running around on Buffy TVS (or any Whedon show) back in the day.


Yeah, it's terrible, isn't it?  :Wink:

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Huge stills from the upcoming episode:

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/sectio...y4/gallery.htm

----------


## JJ!

I've liked the first two episodes well enough. They haven't blown me away though. Hopefully things will pick up soon.

----------


## tabo61

Mad Hatter have a sister in the comics?

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Mad Hatter have a sister in the comics?


Is she really his sister? His love for her would be on the creepy side if that were the case.

----------


## SicariiDC

Tetch was pretty creepy without the wierd pedophile stuff. 

I get a kick out of Gordon the bounty hunter. And that dumb smile>>>

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

man not much activity in this topic since Season 3 Began

----------


## Stinky

Really wanted to like this show.  It's shot beautifully.  I was just hoping they'd stick to the more street level/organized crime themes and not "super powered freaks."  Still watch it but keep wondering what if....

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> Really wanted to like this show.  It's shot beautifully.  I was just hoping they'd stick to the more street level/organized crime themes and not "super powered freaks."  Still watch it but keep wondering what if....


they fell into the same hole that agents of shield  nobody cares about Another Police Show Or A Spy Show Dealing with stealth and secrets

they want some comic book fun and that's why Agents of shield has had to pull out the robie reyes ghost rider for this season because the agents of shield was a boring concept to begin with

----------


## tabo61

I liked how they made Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum a prowrestling tag team act.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> they fell into the same hole that agents of shield  nobody cares about Another Police Show Or A Spy Show Dealing with stealth and secrets
> 
> they want some comic book fun and that's why Agents of shield has had to pull out the robie reyes ghost rider for this season because the agents of shield was a boring concept to begin with


Yah, the show is better now. Anybody saying that making Gotham Central on TV would have been better is fooling themselves.

----------


## JohnnyGoodboy

Not been a huge fan of this season so far but I liked this weeks episode interested to see where they go with the Cobblepot mayor storyline.

----------


## josai21

Ugh... ina recent interview David Mazous said they are really going to play up the playboy/partner aspect of Bruce; but it won't be a mask...it'll be who he actually is.

Ugh.

Just ugh.

Bruce was developing so well too.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Ugh... ina recent interview David Mazous said they are really going to play up the playboy/partner aspect of Bruce; but it won't be a mask...it'll be who he actually is.
> 
> Ugh.
> 
> Just ugh.
> 
> Bruce was developing so well too.


Where did he say this specifically? 

Barf if true. Bruce Wayne is supposed to act like Justin Beiber, not actually BE Beiber.

----------


## josai21

https://www.google.com/amp/www.ibtim...?client=safari

On mobile so sorry for crappy link

----------


## SicariiDC

> Ugh... ina recent interview David Mazous said they are really going to play up the playboy/partner aspect of Bruce; but it won't be a mask...it'll be who he actually is.
> 
> Ugh.
> 
> Just ugh.
> 
> Bruce was developing so well too.


How is he gonna be a playboy at 12 years old?

----------


## Powertool

> How is he gonna be a playboy at 12 years old?


Fourteen. The characters in the show age in real time. And I've known very few boys who, at fourteen years of age, aren't in the most active phase of puberty. He may not have reached the final form of the quintessential playboy, but the seeds are planted either in that phase or never at all.

----------


## brucekent12

I watch some of it on DVR after Supergirl unti I cant take any more of its stupidity. Keep hoping it will get better, but nope!

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I watch some of it on DVR after Supergirl unti I cant take any more of its stupidity. Keep hoping it will get better, but nope!


Are you kidding? It's better than any of the CW-shows. I'm actually writing an essay on why I prefer it. 

I would really like to hear what you find stupid about it.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Are you kidding? It's better than any of the CW-shows. I'm actually writing an essay on why I prefer it. 
> 
> I would really like to hear what you find stupid about it.


Supergirl is probably the purist comic book show on TV, the one that most resembles a comic book, bright, colorful, outlandish villains,
with Flash being a close second.  Arrow and Gotham are basically the same show, with Gotham having slightly more outlandish villains.
DC's Legends of Tomorrow is really just a time travel show that has a few superheroes as members, so not really all that comic book like.
But better is subjective.  They all do things that are stupid to be honest. It's really more of which style one prefers.   Gotham and Arrow 
are better at being dark and noir.  Flash and Supergirl are better at being light and colorful.

----------


## SicariiDC

Arrow is my favorite of the bunch.  Might just because of Stephen Amell tho, he's an amiable cat

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Supergirl is probably the purist comic book show on TV, the one that most resembles a comic book, bright, colorful, outlandish villains,
> with Flash being a close second.  Arrow and Gotham are basically the same show, with Gotham having slightly more outlandish villains.
> DC's Legends of Tomorrow is really just a time travel show that has a few superheroes as members, so not really all that comic book like.
> But better is subjective.  They all do things that are stupid to be honest. It's really more of which style one prefers.   Gotham and Arrow 
> are better at being dark and noir.  Flash and Supergirl are better at being light and colorful.


Being a "pure" comicbook show isn't a good or bad thing, even when dealing with comicbook properties. 

Arrow and Gotham are nothing alike. Whatever similarities exist only exist because Arrow tries so hard to be Batman, to the point that it's just embarrassing.  

The difference between Gotham and the rest of the DC shows are simple:

- Gotham mixes its drama with its humor, while the CW shows draw a clear line between the two. Actually, Gotham does both. 
- The CW shows exploit the emotions of the audience every chance they get, and Gotham doesn't . . . to its own detriment sometimes. 
- The CW shows cater to a more modern and female audience, whereas Gotham doesn't.
- The CW shows are set in a recognizable modern-day setting, whereas Gotham's setting is hard to pin down. 
- The CW shows reduce good and evil to superheroes versus supervillains. Gotham deals with both supervillains and normal human corruption, or at least it deals with it in a more extensive manner. 
- Gotham is more cinematically impressive, whereas the CW shows have more impressive special effects.
- The CW shows are formulaic, and often competently so in terms of their scripting, whereas Gotham is more experimental.

Calling Gotham "dark and noir" is frankly an oversimplification. It's a dark comedy with some dramatic moments, or it's a dark origin story with some comedic moments. It's hard to describe, I guess is my point.

Calling Arrow "dark and noir" is being too generous. It's a straight-up superhero show usually set at night.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Yesterday's episode of Gotham . . . wow. So good.

----------


## tabo61

That ending with Mad Hatter was creepy. Awsome!

----------


## SicariiDC

> Yesterday's episode of Gotham . . . wow. So good.


Yeah it's starting to heat up now

----------


## SicariiDC

However, does anyone feel like these 23 episode seasons are a bit much? Shit inevitably drags or loses momentum. 

All my favorite dramas (non comics) were like 12 or 13 episodes...idk, just a thought

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> However, does anyone feel like these 23 episode seasons are a bit much? Shit inevitably drags or loses momentum. 
> 
> All my favorite dramas (non comics) were like 12 or 13 episodes...idk, just a thought


I agree, especially with Gotham's pacing.

----------


## Punisher007

I was so expecting:

*spoilers:*
 Penguin and Riddler to kiss at one point.  This has to be intentional on the shows part by this point, it has to be. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## JJ!

> That ending with Mad Hatter was creepy. Awsome!


That dude is nuts....I'm liking the actor's portrayal of MH as well as the writers' interpretation. I haven't seen a lot of MH in the shows/comics I've read so this is awesome. 

I'm loving Cobblepott/Nygma 2016 (the political pairing.) The whole set-up/downfall of Butch was fantastic.

Also, to weigh in on the CW-Verse vs Gotham debate...

I LOVE the Flash. And I LOVED Gotham (at least season one and two. S3 is off to a pretty slow start but it seems promising.) The Flash, to me, nails the comic-book TV show style/what it should be.

----------


## SicariiDC

> I was so expecting:
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Penguin and Riddler to kiss at one point.  This has to be intentional on the shows part by this point, it has to be. 
> *end of spoilers*


haha yoooo, i thought that same thing when they were all gazing in eachother's eyes like a centimeter away. i wouldn't have liked if they did tho. i'm "ok" with homosexuality typically, but neither of these characters has, to my knowledge, ever been portrayed as such.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> However, does anyone feel like these 23 episode seasons are a bit much? Shit inevitably drags or loses momentum. 
> 
> All my favorite dramas (non comics) were like 12 or 13 episodes...idk, just a thought



I am of the school the more the merrier.  I don't think they do enough episodes.  Why do I want to limit my fun?  At one time TV series had episode counts in the 30s and I heard no complaints about any dilution in quality. 
Some of my favorite shows back in the days had high episode counts.  The Rifleman had 40 episodes the first season. Gunsmoke had multiple seasons of episodes in the high 30s.  Bonanza was also mid 30s episode counts.
Are you saying today's writers aren't capable of producing high quality drama week after week with a subject that has far more options than a Western? 




> haha yoooo, i thought that same thing when they were all gazing in eachother's eyes like a centimeter away. i wouldn't have liked if they did tho. i'm "ok" with homosexuality typically, but neither of these characters has, to my knowledge, ever been portrayed as such.


For the most part Riddler and Penguin have been depicted as pretty much asexual in past versions.  Penguin was horny for Catwoman in Batman Returns, but that was about it.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Penguin was horny for Catwoman in Batman Returns...


Who wasn't?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Penguin had also fallen in love with a female sex slave in that _Joker's Asylum: Penguin_ one-shot. And apparently now a "son" will be appearing in Batgirl so at one point Ole Cobblepot got busy, as nightmarish as that is to visualize.

The Riddler's orientation was never delved into lol. Jim Carrey played him a little flaming in Batman Forever but that could have just been the Schumacher influence.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Today's episode of Gotham, 3x06, was pretty good. 

Oswald struggles with his feelings over Ed. Meanwhile, Ed meets Ms.Too-Perfect. 

Jim is forced to choose in the Mad Hatter's evil game. The Mad Hatter was amazing. Such a good casting.

----------


## PurpleGlovez

In the (amazing) Riddle Me That storyline from Legends of the Dark Knight 185-189, let's just say Riddler is... quite heterosexual. Plus he did have a supposed daughter. And Penguin had a female love interest in Batman Annual #11 and in Gotham Underground it's mentioned that he's had sex with at least one of his female employees, and he is almost always accompanied by a gaggle of beautiful girls at any rate. _So,_ it's disingenuous to say these characters have always been asexual. However, I guess I don't have a problem with what the show's doing... Regardless of that specifically, this show is _incredible._ I was blown away by this episode and Jim's choice. The dude playing the Mad Hatter is really good. This is one of the best shows on TV (fight me, I don't care!) and everyone, especially Batman fans, needs to be watching it.

----------


## SicariiDC

Haven't seen this week yet but I'm excited to do so after the good feedback

----------


## TsukiSentinel

No Alfred, Bruce, Selina or Butch this episode though. Hopefully next time.

Also, can I say I love how the Mad Hatter continues to rhyme even when he's stressed out of his element. 

Also, the phone-thing . . . HILARIOUS.

----------


## tabo61

So far Mad Hatter is doing a awsome job being a nightmare on the city of Gotham.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> No Alfred, Bruce, Selina or Butch this episode though. Hopefully next time.
> 
> Also, can I say I love how the Mad Hatter continues to rhyme even when he's stressed out of his element. 
> 
> Also, the phone-thing . . . HILARIOUS.


I was disappointed with this episode.  Just felt boring.  Lunatic kills two people, badly injures a third, and gets away.  And that was the entire episode.  Even the Penguin/Riddler side story was a waste of time.
And then it was over.  I was like, wait, is that it?  It's over?  And so now Mad Hatter has gone from hypnosis to mind control?  How exactly do you hypnotize two people on the happiest day of their lives into
wanting to jump off a building?  Hypnosis doesn't work that way, people have to want to do something subconsciously. All hypnosis does is take away the inhibition. There was no build up to this, just a plot device.
Please bring back Bruce, Alfred, Selina, Ivy, Butch, asap. Hell even Fish at this point would be more entertaining.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> I was disappointed with this episode.  Just felt boring.  Lunatic kills two people, badly injures a third, and gets away.  And that was the entire episode.  Even the Penguin/Riddler side story was a waste of time.
> And then it was over.  I was like, wait, is that it?  It's over?  And so now Mad Hatter has gone from hypnosis to mind control?  How exactly do you hypnotize two people on the happiest day of their lives into
> wanting to jump off a building?  Hypnosis doesn't work that way, people have to want to do something subconsciously. All hypnosis does is take away the inhibition. There was no build up to this, just a plot device.
> Please bring back Bruce, Alfred, Selina, Ivy, Butch, asap. Hell even Fish at this point would be more entertaining.


You don't have to like the episode, but are you really trying to apply logic to a TV show based on a comicbook? Have you read batman comics?

Also, you sounds like the sort of person who needs story progression to keep your interest, and this episode was clearly filler. That's fine, but that's not how I gauge quality.

----------


## Tony

I'm coming around to Gotham being the strongest DC show.  Flash is ok but a little played out, Legends is better and above average but not amazing, Supergirl is probably still my favorite since we got Superman, Superman, Wonder Woman/Mon El, but I expect this to change without the guest stars.  I think Gotham has the best actors.

I love the crazy.

----------


## SicariiDC

> I'm coming around to Gotham being the strongest DC show.  Flash is ok but a little played out, Legends is better and above average but not amazing, Supergirl is probably still my favorite since we got Superman, Superman, Wonder Woman/Mon El, but I expect this to change without the guest stars.  I think Gotham has the best actors.
> 
> I love the crazy.


Your not into arrow?

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Hell even Fish at this point would be more entertaining.


Let's not get crazy.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling



----------


## SicariiDC

I've liked all the hatter episodes but I'm kinda ready for it to be done now

----------


## Tony

> Your not into arrow?


Never could get into it.  I saw the first few and the crossover episodes but it hasn't grabbed me.

----------


## tabo61

That Red Queen drug is powerful

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> That Red Queen drug is powerful


But nothing is more powerful than the Mighty Jim.   Not sure that was Touched's intended effect.

Babs just keeps getting hotter and hotter.  Phooey on everyone who wanted her killed off.

Anyone else annoyed by the blatant heterosexuality on display between Ed and Isabella in this episode? 

Bat-Cat is back.  Missed them last episode. Even if the sub-plot didn't amount to much in the story.

Barnes going Negan on Touched was a sight to behold. Hopefully Touched stays in Arkham for a while.

----------


## SicariiDC

> Never could get into it.  I saw the first few and the crossover episodes but it hasn't grabbed me.


Fair enough. I feel that way about the Flash

----------


## TsukiSentinel

Every time a new episode airs, I say the same thing: Gotham is the best DC TV show out right now.

----------


## JJ!

I'm all caught up. The Mad Hatter is amazing. He's a well written character and the actor does an awesome job. The scene where Jim has to choose is great.

----------


## TsukiSentinel

> Fair enough. I feel that way about the Flash


I'm starting to feel that way about the Flash. It took me a couple of episodes, but it's becoming apparent to me that the Flash doesn't have anything interesting up its sleeve. 

Silly humor, forced melodrama, villain-twist, rinse and repeat.

----------


## ispacehead

A very Twin Peaks like episode this week I thought. 

Gordon's trip was amazing.

Will Barb's role as Gordon's spirit guide spark a change in their real life relationship? Hmm....

Mad Hatter was simply fantastic. One of the best takes on the character ever.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> A very Twin Peaks like episode this week I thought. 
> 
> Gordon's trip was amazing.
> 
> Will Barb's role as Gordon's spirit guide spark a change in their real life relationship? Hmm....
> .


Babs is starting to look more and more like she will be Jim's wife after all.   Sorry to all those folks who thought Jim would marry Lee and Lee would name her daughter Barbara. That never made any sense to me anyway.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

a reminder that a day after next week's gotham  everyone will be frantically fearing the election results

----------


## tabo61

That Captain Barnes is headed toward a cozy cell at Arkham.

----------


## Tony

> Babs is starting to look more and more like she will be Jim's wife after all.   Sorry to all those folks who thought Jim would marry Lee and Lee would name her daughter Barbara. That never made any sense to me anyway.


I really hope so.  Barbara is my favorite Gordon love interest.  In a town like Gotham you need a little crazy on your side.  Gonna say as of now Gotham is the must see DCTV.  I agree with the poster up stream about the Flash and all CW shows not pulling me in this year other than enjoying Superman guest starring on Supergirl.

I still need to get too season 2 of IZombie and Lucifer.  I might just give the CW a break and catch up on those.  Is Lucifer on streaming anywhere?  Maybe day after Thanksgiving sale.

I can't wait to get back to butch and Tabitha.  True Love.

----------


## berserkerclaw

I do not like what they are doing with Penquin and Riddler this season.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

Did this show forget that Thompkin's actual name is Leslie? There no way the glass on her office should have her nickname imprinted on it.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> This is show forget that Thompkin's actual name is Leslie? There no way the glass on her office should have her nickname imprinted on it.


yeah when you think about it...everyone calling her lee is just weird

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> That Captain Barnes is headed toward a cozy cell at Arkham.


i think barnes will most likely get killed by bullock instead.....the question though is who will be the big boss of GCPD then?

----------


## Toreador

> yeah when you think about it...everyone calling her lee is just weird


That is how she introduces herself to people or have her friends call her 'Lee'.

----------


## SicariiDC

I don't love the Ed/Oswald stuff either. 

Is Barnes suppose to be inspired by that executioner character from the end of BTAS? If so, thats cool as hell

----------


## tabo61

The scenes between Poison Ivy and Selina gave me deja vu of that Tom Hanks movie "Big" when he went to his friend for help after he was transformed into an adult.

----------


## Confuzzled

The whole deal with Ivy this season reminds me of

----------


## Bukdiah

lmao what a great comparison. It kinda reminds me of Jack with Robin Williams for some reason. "I got a little kid's mind but I'm so grown"

----------


## ispacehead

Another great episode! Really fun, I thought.

I love the dynamic of Ivy with Bruce and Selina. Great performance from that actress, mimicking the other young lady.

The tragic tale of Ozzy's unrequited love is coming together nicely.

And we see Jim move another step toward the man we know he is to become.

----------


## tabo61

I liked the Falcone involved with the Court of Owls storyline

----------


## tabo61

That was funny how Mad Hatter created a top hat out of newspapers when Gordon went to see him at Arkham.

----------


## SicariiDC

> That was funny how Mad Hatter created a top hat out of newspapers when Gordon went to see him at Arkham.


Yeah hatter is hilarious. Those rhymes under stress are amazing. Gordon's were wack lol

----------


## ispacehead

Finally watched the last episode last night. Least favorite episode to date.

Kinda soapy. 

Hatter was the only good part.

----------


## Killercroc357

For me, Jerome has been a high point on this show.

----------


## Killercroc357



----------


## Bukdiah

LMAO Frankenstein Jerome. Oh, this show provides great giggles.

----------


## Killercroc357

> LMAO Frankenstein Jerome. Oh, this show provides great giggles.


So mark you down as a viewer tonight?

 :Smile:

----------


## Bukdiah

I didn't even know it returned tonight, but I'll definitely check it out for some laughs lol.

----------


## Killercroc357

For some this show is going to come across off-the-wall. For others, moderately entertaining. And others are going to treat it like an Elseworld storyline.

It's okay if folks do not care for it.

----------


## Godzilla2099

I'm catching back up with Gotham.  How did Mario Falcone get infected blood virus?

----------


## Bukdiah

> I'm catching back up with Gotham.  How did Mario Falcone get infected blood virus?


That's Leslie Thompkin's husband right? He got infected when the Mad Hatter went to the hospital. I think he was found knocked out with the virus beside him.

----------


## Godzilla2099

> That's Leslie Thompkin's husband right? He got infected when the Mad Hatter went to the hospital. I think he was found knocked out with the virus beside him.


Thanks.  I must have missed that part.  Carmine is going to be pissed.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Thanks.  I must have missed that part.  Carmine is going to be pissed.


lol indeed. He's gonna be like, "GORDON! You said you'd bring my son back alive!" Little does he know, Gordon sucks with promises.

----------


## Killercroc357

> That's Leslie Thompkin's husband right? He got infected when the Mad Hatter went to the hospital. I think he was found knocked out with the virus beside him.


I don't think the show has confirmed yet when he got infected. But there is a hint he was given an injection at some point.

There was one scene where Jim Gordon meets Mario, and noticed he has a bandage on his neck. But they never confirmed why. So it could be the Court of Owls may have experimented on Mario out of revenge, or Mad Hatter got to him in advance. I originally thought he got it possibly through an autopsy of Alice. But thinking back, that never took place.

----------


## Bukdiah

Jerome's Heath Ledger impersonation never fails to make me laugh. Gotta love the people chanting in unison too right? I guess they...watch that reel a lot? lol

----------


## tabo61

That's chilling how Jerome is wearing that smile on his face while he's dead or whatever.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Thanks.  I must have missed that part.  Carmine is going to be pissed.


I liked how Victor admitted to Jim that he didn't like Mario either, but a job is a job.  And his nonchalant attitude when Carmine said his services were no longer needed.

----------


## kevink31593

Gotham is only back for 3 episodes in January then its taking another break. It won't be back on air until April 24. Season 3 is supposed to be 22 episodes, and only 14 will have aired by the end of January. Assuming they finish out the season with weekly episodes starting April 24, the season finale won't air until mid-June.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/mor...remiere-dates/

----------


## signalman112

Riddler haunting Penguin reminds of an early 80's Gerry Conway subplot where Hugo Strange haunts Rubert Thorne.

----------


## loudmouthcollector

I love Gotham, but I'm one of those difficult fans who can't be pleased. I thought the Mad Hatter arc went on waaaay too long, yet I get upset at the rumor of Harley Quinn's (Dr. Quinzel) upcoming debut. I hate the introduction of too many villains yet when they do slow down I don't like that either. I'm confusing.

----------


## Panfoot

> Gotham is only back for 3 episodes in January then its taking another break. It won't be back on air until April 24. Season 3 is supposed to be 22 episodes, and only 14 will have aired by the end of January. Assuming they finish out the season with weekly episodes starting April 24, the season finale won't air until mid-June.
> 
> http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/mor...remiere-dates/


I'm so damn sick of all these breaks.

----------


## Bukdiah

Get ready for some silliness

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> I'm so damn sick of all these breaks.


so am i....But Fox Gotta Air 24 Legacy And that futuristic cop show instead

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

Gotham home to some of the most beautiful women on all of TV, which is a major reason why it is my favorite of the DC shows on tv, despite it being the least like it's source material.

----------


## Bukdiah

Morena Baccarin is stunning. Erin Richards grew on me, I guess. Her short hair on Monday's episode was nice.

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

Morena is an all time beauty and I have a thing for Jessica Lucas too she is quite stunning. Barbara (Erin Richards) was never unattractive but has grown on me as well and Selina (Camren) who I didn't care for in the casting originally is maturing into a beauty herself.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Morena is an all time beauty and I have a thing for Jessica Lucas too she is quite stunning. Barbara (Erin Richards) was never unattractive but has grown on me as well and Selina (Camren) who I didn't care for in the casting originally is maturing into a beauty herself.


The first two are indeed stunning. Erin Richards may be the sexiest one (at least portrayed on this show). As for Camren, she's a beautiful kid, but a kid is what she looks like to me.   :Smile:

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

she is just a kid but at first I was like this isn't what Selina looks like even a young Selina but as time marches on she is making the character her own. I don't find myself thinking this isn't Catwoman anymore. Sort of like I NEVER thought of Dr. Thompkins as sexy until they got the sexiest woman on television to play her, lol.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Sort of like I NEVER thought of Dr. Thompkins as sexy until they got the sexiest woman on television to play her, lol.


Heh. I actually got a copy of the first appearance of Leslie Thompkins back in '79 for Christmas and younger Leslie is quite attractive in the flashback panels. With that said, I never thought of a Morena Baccarin-type to play her back then.

----------


## SicariiDC

> Gotham home to some of the most beautiful women on all of TV, which is a major reason why it is my favorite of the DC shows on tv, despite it being the least like it's source material.


It sure is.Tabitha is amazingly sexy, god I love her lol. 

Part of my liking it so much is how different from the source material it is...it's some wacky shit

And what's with those breaks in airing? I don't like that at all

----------


## Bukdiah

lmao Tabby always cracked me up. She has a white brother (I guess one of them is adopted which made it even funnier when Hugo Strange convinced Theo he was his dad) and she flip flops between "Do I like guys or girls?" and someone was like "WHY NOT BOTH?!" and bam, it just happens.

----------


## tabo61

That whole thing with Jerome and his face reminded me of the New 52 storylines with Joker's cut off face.

----------


## Bukdiah

> That whole thing with Jerome and his face reminded me of the New 52 storylines with Joker's cut off face.


Did you like how the face suddenly became a hardened mask that maintained it's shape? When Dwight wore it, I was like "What the...oh god. How is it moving that way?" lol

----------


## SicariiDC

> lmao Tabby always cracked me up. She has a white brother (I guess one of them is adopted which made it even funnier when Hugo Strange convinced Theo he was his dad) and she flip flops between "Do I like guys or girls?" and someone was like "WHY NOT BOTH?!" and bam, it just happens.


Why is that...anything? She likes guys and girls...cool

----------


## Bukdiah

> Why is that...anything? She likes guys and girls...cool


Probably because it wasn't really hinted and they kinda just threw it in there. Same thing happened to Barbara after they did not know what to do when her and Jim Gordon broke up. It strikes me as a lazy way to ship certain characters together when they have nothing else going on in their arcs.

----------


## SicariiDC

How do people feel about dude pretty much emulating Heath ledger's vocal tone and inflections and stuff...kinda like a young version of that joker...idk tho, seemed too much like homage maybe for me

----------


## Bukdiah

> How do people feel about dude pretty much emulating Heath ledger's vocal tone and inflections and stuff...kinda like a young version of that joker...idk tho, seemed too much like homage maybe for me


lmao I think the actor watching The Dark Knight repeatedly and tries to emulate Heath like you said. He even does that weird tongue flick thing too before he talks to the camera. When he first took over the GCPD and did that TV broadcast, it was exactly like when Heath interrogated that one Batman impostor. When does something become a rip off versus a homage? I don't exactly know.

----------


## tabo61

> Did you like how the face suddenly became a hardened mask that maintained it's shape? When Dwight wore it, I was like "What the...oh god. How is it moving that way?" lol


Yeah,that felt like a horror movie scene especially the other scene where Jerome started stapling his face back on.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Yeah,that felt like a horror movie scene especially the other scene where Jerome started stapling his face back on.


That's Franken-Jerome to you!

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> Morena Baccarin is stunning. Erin Richards grew on me, I guess. Her short hair on Monday's episode was nice.


There's something about being evil and devious that has made Barbara a lot more attractive.




> And what's with those breaks in airing? I don't like that at all


Yeah, this one is bad.  Winter finales are supposed to be before the December holidays, not at the end of January.




> How do people feel about dude pretty much emulating Heath ledger's vocal tone and inflections and stuff...kinda like a young version of that joker...idk tho, seemed too much like homage maybe for me


I think he's great.  More entertaining to watch than Jared Leto was.

----------


## SicariiDC

> I think he's great.  More entertaining to watch than Jared Leto was.


I gotta disagree here. Idc what anyone says I loved Leto's Joker. He was magnetic. He seemed genuinely crazy as fuck. This kid is definitely cool, but seems like a child doing their impression of a performance, rather than a performance itself. I know people online love this kid tho, on YouTube they worship him like Gotham crazies worship Jerome in the show

----------


## brucekent12

I watched the first couple of episodes at the beginning of the season, thought that they were as bad as last year and stoppwd watching. Is it getting better now that the Joker is finally coming on? If so, Ill try it out again!

----------


## SicariiDC

> I watched the first couple of episodes at the beginning of the season, thought that they were as bad as last year and stoppwd watching. Is it getting better now that the Joker is finally coming on? If so, Ill try it out again!


If you didn't like last season or the start of this one, I don't see much different besides the Jerome stuff. Aside from season 1 which tried for like a second to be a cop show, the vibe has been pretty consistent for me. I love the show, it strikes me as like dark modern camp, and I get why some don't watch it, but yeah if u always thought it was trash, it's still the same trash lol. Just with Jerome, who I think is overrated, and this is his last episode and then a huge sucky winter break...ughhh

----------


## Drako

It's too bad i can't get over the fact that all those villains are appearing before Bruce even became Batman. I enjoyed season one, but when Jerome came back it all started to go down hill for me. 

You guys think i should give the series another chance? It's worth a try?

----------


## Bukdiah

If you think of it as fanfic gone wild, then sure. It's pretty funny. I don't think it's particularly good though. The first season was a police procedural that wasn't too well received, but then they went balls to the walls crazy second season and it took off running. People seem to enjoy the wacky villains and antics.

----------


## willtupper

On the off chance that there's any young people reading this board who are enjoying the show and might be curious about some of this particular episode's influences:

1. Again, David Fincher's 1999 classic _Fight Club_ is a key inspiration. Jerome's speech... that bit he says about Gotham and everything, well... that is almost _word-for-word_ what the character of Tyler Durden (played by Brad Pitt) says in _Fight Club_.

In fact, pretend Bruce Wayne is "Jack" (Edward Norton's character), and Jerome is "Tyler" (Brad Pitt's character), and it's more or less the same film (also with Nigma - there was some shaky cam stuff, some episodes back, that were _shot-for-shot_ taken from _Fight Club_.

2. That big, climatic end scene? Pretty cool, right? I agree. Although the all-time best version of that conflict is still the _first_ version. Which you can see in the 1973 classic, _Enter the Dragon_, starring martial arts legend, Bruce Lee.

Now we wait (AGAIN) until this season picks up again.  

2.

----------


## Bukdiah

When Jerome got his pizza face punched off. The look on Jim Gordon's face was amazing lmao. He was like  :EEK!: !

----------


## Bukdiah

> On the off chance that there's any young people reading this board who are enjoying the show and might be curious about some of this particular episode's influences:
> 
> 1. Again, David Fincher's 1999 classic _Fight Club_ is a key inspiration. Jerome's speech... that bit he says about Gotham and everything, well... that is almost _word-for-word_ what the character of Tyler Durden (played by Brad Pitt) says in _Fight Club_.
> 
> In fact, pretend Bruce Wayne is "Jack" (Edward Norton's character), and Jerome is "Tyler" (Brad Pitt's character), and it's more or less the same film (also with Nigma - there was some shaky cam stuff, some episodes back, that were _shot-for-shot_ taken from _Fight Club_.
> 
> 2. That big, climatic end scene? Pretty cool, right? I agree. Although the all-time best version of that conflict is still the _first_ version. Which you can see in the 1973 classic, _Enter the Dragon_, starring martial arts legend, Bruce Lee.
> 
> Now we wait (AGAIN) until this season picks up again.  
> ...


The house of mirrors things is so cliche, but I definitely got the Enter The Dragon vibes from it. It was also used in one of the Batman TAS episodes with that Baby Doll character too.

----------


## Mace Dolex

I don't know if it's been discussed pages back but did anyone see a resemblance of Selina Kyle's mom to Michelle Pfeiffer? I thought it was a pretty cool nod to Batman Returns.

----------


## bobellis75

I really liked the episode...hate that it's going away until April now as it is picking up some steam. Bruce starting to do some real Bruce Wayne type stuff. 

and yes as someone mentioned....when his face came off...that was pretty cool, I'll admit, and Gordon's reaction was great. And Harvey was like "Well hey, at least now you can say you punched someone's face off." (or something to that effect)

----------


## Bukdiah

Oh god, looked like he was in a pizza eating competition. Only that..he couldn't use his hands and got tomato sauce everywhere lol

----------


## tabo61

I liked that death trap Nygma set up for Cobblepot in the beginning of the episode.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

I'm kinda disappointed that Nygma went through with shooting Penguin. I liked their friendship.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm kinda disappointed that Nygma went through with shooting Penguin. I liked their friendship.


I was actually kind of happy about it since I think Penguin needs this kind of wakeup call at this point.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> It's too bad i can't get over the fact that all those villains are appearing before Bruce even became Batman. I enjoyed season one, but when Jerome came back it all started to go down hill for me. 
> 
> You guys think i should give the series another chance? It's worth a try?


The trick to watching Gotham is to forget that any other versions of Batman have ever existed, do a complete mind wipe, and go at it as a story you have never seen before.  It's why I enjoy Lucifer.
I have never read the comic books so it's a whole new thing for me.




> I liked that death trap Nygma set up for Cobblepot in the beginning of the episode.


Just shooting Oswald was more effective though. It's like in the Austin Powers movie where Dr. Evil's son basically says "Just shoot him"

Dr. Evil: Scott, I want you to meet daddy's nemesis, Austin Powers
Scott Evil: What? Are you feeding him? Why don't you just kill him?
Dr. Evil: I have an even better idea. I'm going to place him in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic death.

Dr. Evil: All right guard, begin the unnecessarily slow-moving dipping mechanism.
[guard starts dipping mechanism]
Dr. Evil: Close the tank!
Scott Evil: Wait, aren't you even going to watch them? They could get away!
Dr. Evil: No no no, I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying, I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. What?
Scott Evil: I have a gun, in my room, you give me five seconds, I'll get it, I'll come back down here, BOOM, I'll blow their brains out!
Dr. Evil: Scott, you just don't get it, do ya? You don't.

----------


## Bukdiah

Osiris-Rex, did you laugh when you saw that part of the chain was in a block of ice? I was never more dumbfounded lmao. 

"I submerged this portion of the chain under freezing waters! Now you shall watch as this flame slowly melts the block and seals your fate!"

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Osiris-Rex, did you laugh when you saw that part of the chain was in a block of ice? I was never more dumbfounded lmao. 
> 
> "I submerged this portion of the chain under freezing waters! Now you shall watch as this flame slowly melts the block and seals your fate!"


It was cleverly stupid.  It was like scenes from the Batman '66 TV series where Batman was tied to a mattress stitching machine or put in a giant tea cup and a giant coffee pot is rigged to pour acid on him.

----------


## tabo61

Riddler episode was great.

----------


## Castiel

That was a fantastic episode loved Riddler! Honestly though I am hoping against hope that neither Barbara or Lee are related to Batgirl honestly I'm starting to think Jim will end up with Tabitha I mean at this point she's the most sane woman on the show. Which says a lot about how crazy Gotham is.

----------


## Tony

Glad we don't have to bother with another resurrection.  Bruce is really starting to feel like a kid who could grow into being Batman.

----------


## SicariiDC

Batgirl? Bruce hasn't even trained to become Batman yet...That may be jumping the gun lol. 

This episode was Aiight, loved this Riddler since day one. But the penguin angle is getting a little played. 

The Bruce plot is what interests me most; that's Ra's right? Would that make Ra's apart of the Court tho? Maybe not idk

----------


## Panfoot

> Batgirl? Bruce hasn't even trained to become Batman yet...That may be jumping the gun lol. 
> 
> This episode was Aiight, loved this Riddler since day one. But the penguin angle is getting a little played. 
> 
> The Bruce plot is what interests me most; that's Ra's right? Would that make Ra's apart of the Court tho? Maybe not idk


Ra's is going to be played by Alexander Siddig (Dr. Bashir from Star Trek: DS9), so the old guy is either someone else or we might get some Lazurus pit shenanigans.

Anyway, definitely glad we aren't going to do a full couple of episodes of "Penguin is totally really dead for real(but isn't)".

----------


## Castiel

> Batgirl? Bruce hasn't even trained to become Batman yet...That may be jumping the gun lol. 
> 
> This episode was Aiight, loved this Riddler since day one. But the penguin angle is getting a little played. 
> 
> The Bruce plot is what interests me most; that's Ra's right? Would that make Ra's apart of the Court tho? Maybe not idk


I do agree I believe it is Ra's al Ghul.

I also agree about the jumping the shark bit because honestly it's just a theory I have regarding Tabitha that she'll reform or become gradually more morally grounded and eventually become Jim's wife. I just think it makes sense for her to go in a sort of reverse direction in contrast to the other villains of the show like how they keep getting darker I think Tabitha is gradually becoming more human and I think this started with her saving her niece and was shown again when she saved Butch and gave up her hand for him. Another reason I suspect this is that if Batgirl is at least named after Barbara Kean it would make sense for both Tabitha and Jim to be her parents since both have history with her and both might be the only ones left by the end that still care about her enough to do something like that.

Also Tabitha has a psychopath for a brother (Theo) just like Barbara does (Jim Gordon Junior) so that would explain that I guess I mean looking back on Season 2 Theo was clearly the more obsessive and demented between the two, to the point that Tabitha ultimately betrayed him. That being said Tabitha not only has a few traits in common with Catwoman but with Talia al Ghul, for example like Talia, Tabitha is also connected to a secret society and was so loyal to Theo(like Talia is to Ra's al Ghul) that even though she knew he probably didn't care about her she was willing to do whatever he wanted and it took him threatening her niece to make her turn on him but even after that she was willing to try talking to him (when he was Azrael) even though she knew he would likely kill her.

I just think it's not outside the realm of possibilities for Tabitha to become Jim's own personal Catwoman especially with how this show shakes up alliances. Besides Jim I think feels guilty or at least regrets how he dealt with Theo and in a way Tabitha is perhaps the person that can really forgive him for what he did. Still it's just a theory and though I like it I doubt it will happen.

I think Ra's though will be tied to the resurrecting of the Talons since there's the Lazarus pit thing. Also I think this version of Ra's is also the Azrael mentioned in Dumas lore (the one who supposedly never died but vanished) especially since according to the show the original Azrael was raised from the dead. I just wouldn't be surprised if Ra's al Ghul was connected to all the secret societies on this show in one way or another.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Finally watched last week's ep.

Fast-forwarded through most non-Bruce scenes.  More bearable that way for me.

I will say, the ending was kind of ... genius?

We all know that Bruce travels the world for training in every major version of the mythos.  But how can they do that on GOTHAM without making 2 completely disconnected mini-shows?  

Answer: by Kidnapping Real Bruce to train with Ras al Ghul on the other side of world for a bit while Fake Bruce stays in Gotham.

And then at the end of this season/ beginning of next season, have Real Bruce and Fake Bruce merge as "Bruce Reborn" with both memories and ... wait I'm thinking of Superman in the comics right now 🤔

----------


## tabo61

Ras al Ghul runs the Court of Owls?????

----------


## ouroboros

Doesn't Batman of the comics have a revered Asian master/mentor?

Or is that only in THE ANIMATED ADVENTURES?

----------


## Desean101101

> Doesn't Batman of the comics have a revered Asian master/mentor?
> 
> Or is that only in THE ANIMATED ADVENTURES?


The guy training him is not Ra's. Its Henry Ducard/ Ra's has already been cast and its not t his guy. We haven't met Ra's yet.

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

with all of the foes already being so clearly established and Gotham appearing more of an elseworldly tale than DC canon I am now thinking could it be possible that in this TV universe Gordon is Batman and Bruce is the Robin that will eventually replace him. Jim is the more driven character and Bruce (like Dick in the comics) though also touched by tragedy is the more balanced, younger of the two. It would work age wise with the set up being everyone knowing that one day Bruce would replace Jim, just like one could assume that Dick would replace Bruce. It would eliminate the villains being already established before Batman problem because if Jim is Bats they all begin at basically the same time. Jim has the closer relationship to the villains than Bruce does. Just a thought, but it would be a wild swerve to throw at the people expecting one thing and getting another. Hey as long as they have screen time for Jessica Lucas, Morena Baccarin and Erin Richards on the show count me in.

----------


## ouroboros

> The guy training him is not Ra's. Its Henry Ducard/ Ra's has already been cast and its not t his guy. We haven't met Ra's yet.


I saw the earlier post, and I'm not among those who keep saying that it's "Ra's" just because that's what happened in BATMAN BEGINS. I would actually prefer that GOTHAM stay as far away from Christopher Nolan as possible, but that's me. I was asking about other mentors in the comics & cartoons to see if there was another character on whom the prospective teacher may have been modeled.

----------


## tabo61

The Batman Returns scene was a interesting surprise.

----------


## ouroboros

I'm liking the way this season brought Freeze, Firefly, and Poison Ivy into the mix. I can't get enough Penguin, but for me a little Riddler goes a long way.

I liked the way Oswald sneers at the obviousness of his foe's choice in names, and how he got pissed at Ivy calling him "Pengy." Was that the first time anyone called him that on the show?

----------


## ouroboros

> with all of the foes already being so clearly established and Gotham appearing more of an elseworldly tale than DC canon I am now thinking could it be possible that in this TV universe Gordon is Batman and Bruce is the Robin that will eventually replace him. Jim is the more driven character and Bruce (like Dick in the comics) though also touched by tragedy is the more balanced, younger of the two. It would work age wise with the set up being everyone knowing that one day Bruce would replace Jim, just like one could assume that Dick would replace Bruce. It would eliminate the villains being already established before Batman problem because if Jim is Bats they all begin at basically the same time. Jim has the closer relationship to the villains than Bruce does. Just a thought, but it would be a wild swerve to throw at the people expecting one thing and getting another. Hey as long as they have screen time for Jessica Lucas, Morena Baccarin and Erin Richards on the show count me in.


That scenario would solve the looming problem of continuing to promise a Batman who won't be old enough for at least five-ten years still.

----------


## tabo61

I liked how Ivy nursed Selina back to health.

----------


## lotjx

New to the forums, but I do a podcast about Gotham with my wife. We do the show in the car due to time restraints. We also review Shield and spastically do the CW Shows. I know Gotham doesn't get much love in a lot of corners, so I will post the link each week if that is ok. Here is this week's episode. We also have podcasts from episode one on if you are just starting the show. 

https://comicbookspotlight.com/2017/...mical-warfare/

----------


## Tony

I keep hoping Lee will leave the show, I'm so sick of her whining at this point.  The plant thing was silly but worked in a comic book sort of way.  Looking forward to Catwoman's revenge on fake Bruce.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I keep hoping Lee will leave the show, I'm so sick of her whining at this point.


I thought she was wonderful last season and Morena Baccarin is very easy on the eyes, but she has progressively been a downer this season. I'm hoping for Season 2 Lee to emerge again, though.

----------


## Tony

It would be nice.  

Lee:  Jim I hate you and want you to go down in flames and die.  Why wont you confide in me all the stuff your up too?

----------


## tabo61

Look's like Leslie is going to have a room at Arkham.

----------


## Tony

That was awesome!  

I want an Alfred.

----------


## Captain Cringe

Yoo Alfred was badass as fk in the latest episode

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I keep hoping Lee will leave the show, I'm so sick of her whining at this point.  The plant thing was silly but worked in a comic book sort of way. Looking forward to Catwoman's revenge on fake Bruce.


It's funny how everybody hated Barbara and wanted her gone.  And Lee was so beloved that people were so sure Jim would marry Lee and they would have a child they named  Barbara (for no convincing reason why).
Now most everyone loves crazy Barbara and people want Lee gone because Lee has basically become 1st season Barbara.

Shows based on comic books should do things that happen in comic books.  We get they were trying to shed the Adam West/Joel Schumacher Batman  with the Dark Knight trilogy and Batman v Superman. 
But do we really need to go  so far in the other direction that it takes all the fun out of it? So magic plants, why not?

Hopefully Selina does sometime before the season ends.  Though maybe it would be more fitting if Bruce deals with fake Bruce.

----------


## tabo61

That was shocking when Gordon injected himself with that virus.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

Selina with a whip in the promo.  Loving it.

----------


## darkseidpwns

While I wouldn't say Barbara is ultra popular either, the reversal of fortune does amuse me. Same happened to Laurel on Arrow.

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

Lee has been a downer lately but Morena is so easy on the eyes she could just do random costume changes and I would be ok. She and Jessica Lucas (Tabby) are so gorgeous I am never able to complain when they get screen time in fact I am disappointed when they don't. I just hope for better writing and more screen time for them both. However in most types of shows in this genre the girlfriend (significant other) is annoying by nature. (Lois, Laurel, Felicity, Iris heck even Steve Trevor so as not to be too sexiest about it).

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Lee has been a downer lately but Morena is so easy on the eyes she could just do random costume changes and I would be ok. She and Jessica Lucas (Tabby) are so gorgeous I am never able to complain when they get screen time in fact I am disappointed when they don't. I just hope for better writing and more screen time for them both. .


I feel the same way about Erin Richards.   When people would wanted Barbara Kean killed off, I'm NOOOoooooo!!! She's just too damn beautiful.  And somehow she's even sexier now that she's crazy.

.


> However in most types of shows in this genre the girlfriend (significant other) is annoying by nature. (Lois, Laurel, Felicity, Iris heck even Steve Trevor so as not to be too sexiest about it).


Mon-El on Supergirl.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> I feel the same way about Erin Richards.   When people would wanted Barbara Kean killed off, I'm NOOOoooooo!!! She's just too damn beautiful.  And somehow she's even sexier now that she's crazy.


It's those crazy eyes of hers. I wouldn't want to be in the same zip code with someone like that, mind you, but there's something very, very sexy when she gets nutso. 

.

----------


## tabo61

Young Bruce is the "masked crusader"?

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

Lee can't leave Gotham, Noooooooo. Sadly not because the character has been so enjoyable as of late but the actress that portrays her. Add to that I also got some shared screen time between her and Tabby. I guess the Harley rumors were just that planted to goose watching but I didn't see her appearance, what I did notice was a Swampy individual's origin. Just please don't make Penguin and Riddler a couple.

----------


## Bukdiah

Hilarious show all around. I watched the last two episodes just shaking my head at it's silliness lol. Little Bruce running around, beating people up as a vigilante now. Selina randomly asking Tabby to join her crew and Tabby is like, "Well...OK. I see you staring at my whip. Why don't you try it out." Making Butch Solomon Grundy...whew.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Hilarious show all around. I watched the last two episodes just shaking my head at it's silliness lol. Little Bruce running around, beating people up as a vigilante now. Selina randomly asking Tabby to join her crew and Tabby is like, "Well...OK. I see you staring at my whip. Why don't you try it out." Making Butch Solomon Grundy...whew.


Always been a big Catwoman fan every since the Adam West Batman show back in the 1960s when Julie Newmar played Catwoman.  So I was crapping my pants when Selina used the whip
and smashed the bottle dead on. And the "holy hell" look on the face of Tigress.

----------


## Bukdiah

> Always been a big Catwoman fan every since the Adam West Batman show back in the 1960s when Julie Newmar played Catwoman.  So I was crapping my pants when Selina used the whip
> and smashed the bottle dead on. And the "holy hell" look on the face of Tigress.


The 60s Batman is before my time, but I can see why you were taken by Julie Newmar. 

Yeah, man, me and me coworkers have a good time reenacting/recapping episodes at work. I still scream out "SACRILEGE!" from time to time.

----------


## Tony

They really cleaned house this time.  It's Gotham though so anyone could be back in the future.  I'll miss Barbara.

----------


## tabo61

This License of Misconduct storyline Penguin's running is pretty good so far.

----------


## Rac7d*

grown ivy still bothers me

----------


## DR14

> This License of Misconduct storyline Penguin's running is pretty good so far.


It was great seeing him and Bruce have meaningful interaction on this show for the first time.

----------


## Castiel

I'm loving Tabitha on here. I hope they develop her more and make her stand apart from Selina.

----------


## tabo61

Barbara's in cahoots with Ra's al Ghul perhaps?

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

Ivy confirmed for Bane!




> Barbara's in cahoots with Ra's al Ghul perhaps?


Pretty much. It would explain how she came to life and the sudden wealth and weapons.

----------


## DR14

> Barbara's in cahoots with Ra's al Ghul perhaps?


She is, it was teased a few months back at the SDCC.  What Ra's wants her for is still TBD.  I knew he'd be involved with Bruce, I wonder if his plans with Barbara and Bruce at some point connect somehow.

----------


## tabo61

I like how Riddler is mentally broken from being a popsicle.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

Is Ridder's fangirl Query or Echo?

It seems that this season is rushing Bruce's development as Batman.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> It seems that this season is rushing Bruce's development as Batman.


Too bad it's not on the physical level. I know he has the special skills, but it would be nice to have a Bruce Wayne with shoulders broader than mine were when I was age 9.  :Smile:

----------


## Punisher007

> Barbara's in cahoots with Ra's al Ghul perhaps?


Oh she's FAR more than just "in cahoots" with him it would seem.   :Wink:

----------


## Jackalope89

While I am liking Selina's ever more apparent transformation into Catwoman, I still want to see someone like Zatanna or Talia. The latter of whom may be possible with Ra's taking a fairly important role this season.

----------


## tabo61

Falcone 's daughter is smoking hot.

----------


## tabo61

The Riddler-Solomon Grundy team up is great

----------


## 90'sCartoonMan

> The Riddler-Solomon Grundy team up is great


It is.  Kind of messed up how Nygma is treating him, but I see why they did the whole brains and brawn partnership.  Also it's interesting to put those two together considering they are both Legion of Doom members.

----------


## tabo61

Professor Pyg is frightening

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Professor Pyg is frightening


Yes, he is. In fact, he has been the most frightening villain on the show so far, IMO.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yes, he is. In fact, he has been the most frightening villain on the show so far, IMO.


Oink oink.

Pyg.jpg

----------


## Barbatos666

It was a real treat to watch Pyg and Deathstroke over on Arrow virtually back to back. I was in DC fanboy heaven until I remembered that there is a JL film out there.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It was a real treat to watch Pyg and Deathstroke over on Arrow virtually back to back. I was in DC fanboy heaven until I remembered that there is a JL film out there.


And it looks like Penguin is gonna flip out and being an all out war with the GCPD, and probably anyone else that he doesn't like. Victor (Zasz) is going to have some fun.

----------


## Denirac

Gotham announced 2 Major Suprises for the Mid-Season Finale. 
Gotham: A Dark Knight: Queen takes Knight
"Things get complicated for Gordon, Sofia and Penguin when Carmine Falcone comes to town. Alfred tries to get through to Bruce once and for all, while Nygma struggles to gain control over the Riddler persona and Tabitha attempts to make Grundy remember his past. Meanwhile, a familiar smile resurfaces in Gotham."

The Guest Cast List confirms Pyg and Zsasz in addition to Carmine Falcone... It also includes... HIM... "So hang on to your hats folks, You aint seen nothing yet"

----------


## tabo61

When is Gordon going to learn to stop getting involved with a femme fatale

----------


## signalman112

Gordon looked good in a trench coat. Now he needs glasses and a mustache.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> When is Gordon going to learn to stop getting involved with a femme fatale


When they start becoming unattractive?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Punisher007

Honestly my only real disappointment was with Sofia's motivations. It was so predictable from Day One and I wish that at least one female villain can have a motivation that doesn't revolve around the men in her life.

I was hoping for something more interesting.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Honestly my only real disappointment was with Sofia's motivations. It was so predictable from Day One and I wish that at least one female villain can have a motivation that doesn't revolve around the men in her life.
> 
> I was hoping for something more interesting.


Fish Mooney seemed pretty single minded.  She just wanted to rule Gotham.  All the men in her life, Carmine, Maroni, Penguin, Gordon, Doll Maker, were just roadblocks to that goal, except maybe Harvey Bullock, 
who is the only man Fish seemed to have affection for.  And even Harvey played no part in Fish's goals.

----------


## ironman2978

Apparently there is talks of them replacing the Scarecrow's actor:

http://tvline.com/2017/12/13/the-ori...llain-big-bad/
http://www.ibtimes.com/gotham-season...-actor-2628771



> *Question: Sorry I pronounced your name wrong, and basically called you old, at your hometown book signing in Roselle Park. If all is forgiven can you give us a scoop on Gotham? —Derin*
> Ausiello: Scarecrow is coming… back? The Fox drama is quietly looking for an actor to take over the role of Dr. Jonathan Crane (played earlier this season by Charlie Tahan) later this season. It’s also entirely possibly the show is pulling a bait-and-switch and “Scarecrow” is a cover for another nefarious DC villain. Time will tell. (And no worries about botching my name Dennis. It happens!)


Honestly it's irritating that they just brought him on at the beginning only to replace him just as quickly.

----------


## Rac7d*

So this is over with Disney Buying Fox

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> So this is over with Disney Buying Fox


Probably safe for another season because Disney can't buy the Fox broadcast channel.  Because Disney already owns ABC and can't solely own two broadcast networks. 
So Disney was only able to buy the Fox studios. So the Fox broadcasting network will need programming from outside vendors like Warner Bros. if Disney pulls all the 
Fox studio shows for their streaming service.

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> Apparently there is talks of them replacing the Scarecrow's actor:
> 
> http://tvline.com/2017/12/13/the-ori...llain-big-bad/
> http://www.ibtimes.com/gotham-season...-actor-2628771
> 
> Honestly it's irritating that they just brought him on at the beginning only to replace him just as quickly.


They've been recasting a lot of roles these last couple of seasons. It's pretty messy, since they're all villains/future villains as well. 




> So this is over with Disney Buying Fox


Fox needs to have their Fall 2018 programming ready. They'll have to renew at least one more season of the show to get ready for that.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> They've been recasting a lot of roles these last couple of seasons. It's pretty messy, since they're all villains/future villains as well. 
> .


It's just for seldom seen characters though.  An actor can't wait around forever on the off chance she or he might get a chance to play the character again.  
So far the only ones I know of have been Firefly, Ivy, and now Scarecrow.  All the actors now on the show in major roles have been around since the beginning.

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

Season 4B Trailer. New footage starts at 2:58.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder who does apparition Batman's voice?

----------


## CoffeeCup

Show has become my absolute favorite current TV series.

----------


## tabo61

Sad to watch Riddler go insane again

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Sad to watch Riddler go insane again


Isn't Riddler supposed to be nutso?   I mean he commits crimes and then begs to be caught by leaving clues in the form of riddles.  What sane person does that?

----------


## ironman2978

Well, they dropped the new Jerome trailer:




http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/04/02/g...trailer-joker/

----------


## AzraelOnline

The fact that they're actually saying Joker in a trailer is kind of interesting.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

What color is Jeremiah's suit?  :Wink:

----------


## tabo61

Scarecrow's new look is awesome.

----------


## MajorHoy

I'm not watching the show, but is Jim Gordon finally getting a mustache yet?  :Confused:

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> I'm not watching the show, but is Jim Gordon finally getting a mustache yet?


Is it necessary for Jim to have one?  He didn't have one in the 1966 Batman TV series.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Is it necessary for Jim to have one?  He didn't have one in the 1966 Batman TV series.


Well, Neil Hamilton didn't have one, but I really don't know how much he was suppose to really be comic book Jim Gordon sometimes.

And, no, I guess the _Gotham_ version doesn't have to have one, but it does sort of make a further disconnect in my mind from the comic book version that character was inspired by.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm not watching the show, but is Jim Gordon finally getting a mustache yet?


He's supposed to this season.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is it necessary for Jim to have one?  He didn't have one in the 1966 Batman TV series.


only if its necceast for this Selina kyle to get implants or for this bruce to grow another 6 inches

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Did Jim have a mustache in his thirties pre-_COIE_? I'm thinking no, but I might be wrong.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Did Jim have a mustache in his thirties pre-_COIE_? I'm thinking no, but I might be wrong.


He most definitely *did* have one starting with his first appearance in the original _Detective Comics #27_, though it looked more like the pencil-thin type.



As for stories with younger, pre-Commissioner Jim, I can't recall specific ones, so can't say "yay" or "nay" either way, but I don't recall him not having one. (He did shave it off when he was robo-Bat-Bunny, though.)

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> He most definitely *did* have one starting with his first appearance in the original _Detective Comics #27_, though it looked more like the pencil-thin type.
> 
> 
> 
> As for stories with younger, pre-Commissioner Jim, I can't recall specific ones, so can't say "yay" or "nay" either way, but I don't recall him not having one. (He did shave it off when he was robo-Bat-Bunny, though.)


Not the Thirties, Major, but his thirties.  :Wink:

----------


## MajorHoy

> Not the Thirties, Major, but his thirties.


That's why I also said


> . . . As for stories with younger, pre-Commissioner Jim, I can't recall specific ones, so can't say "yay" or "nay" either way, but I don't recall him not having one. (He did shave it off when he was robo-Bat-Bunny, though.)

----------


## Rac7d*

way to whitewash bane, and let me guess the actor is a toothpock so he is wearing the inflatable suit

It aint hard to a latin bodybuilder

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> way to whitewash bane, and let me guess the actor is a toothpock so he is wearing the inflatable suit
> 
> It aint hard to a latin bodybuilder


I don't remember anyone having this problem when Tom Hardy was Bane.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't remember anyone having this problem when Tom Hardy was Bane.


peoepl didn't have a lot problems back in 2012, but its 2018 so wake up

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> peoepl didn't have a lot problems back in 2012, but its 2018 so wake up


There's nothing to "wake up" to as Bane was born in a fictional prison island. He doesn't need to be latin.

----------


## MajorHoy

> peoepl didn't have a lot problems back in 2012, but its 2018 so wake up


What about 2007?

I definitely had problems back in 2007.

----------


## babybats

> I don't remember anyone having this problem when Tom Hardy was Bane.


I had a LOT of problems with it lol  And with the Al Ghuls being white.  It's the same logic behind them, too, "As long as there's plausible deniability, let there be whites!"

Bane's canonically half-white and I think his mom was a member of a revolution in Santa Prisca?  So I GUESS you could assume that his mom was also a white lady living there but I mean...come on. :/  I hope they at least leave in his cultural roots, not make him American or something.  They already took his muscles and wrestling mask away and turned him into some kind of steampunk scuba diver...

----------


## babybats

> Is it necessary for Jim to have one?  He didn't have one in the 1966 Batman TV series.


The mustache is the source of his strength.

----------


## Armor of God

> I had a LOT of problems with it lol  And with the Al Ghuls being white.  It's the same logic behind them, too, "As long as there's plausible deniability, let there be whites!"
> 
> Bane's canonically half-white and I think his mom was a member of a revolution in Santa Prisca?  So I GUESS you could assume that his mom was also a white lady living there but I mean...come on. :/  I hope they at least leave in his cultural roots, not make him American or something.  They already took his muscles and wrestling mask away and turned him into some kind of steampunk scuba diver...


Well, on the other hand Shane West's wiki says this about him:
*His mother is of Cajun French descent and his father was born in Jamaica, of British and Portuguese origin*
So he's mixed like Bane himself.
There's an episode called Pena Dura so who knows what they'll do.

----------


## babybats

> Well, on the other hand Shane West's wiki says this about him:
> *His mother is of Cajun French descent and his father was born in Jamaica, of British and Portuguese origin*
> So he's mixed like Bane himself.
> There's an episode called Pena Dura so who knows what they'll do.


Oh cool, that's nice then.  I'll withhold judgement until I see it then.  (He still looks sooo ridiculous though lol)

----------


## ironman2978

> Well, on the other hand Shane West's wiki says this about him:
> *His mother is of Cajun French descent and his father was born in Jamaica, of British and Portuguese origin*
> So he's mixed like Bane himself.
> There's an episode called Pena Dura so who knows what they'll do.


Not to mention his name is Eduardo Dorrance, giving King Snake's name more Hispanic elements, so I feel like they will play into it a little.

----------


## numberthirty

On the whole "Bane" angle, they appear to be just welding a pair of characters together.

- For starters, the Bane we are discussing is roughly in Bruce Wayne's age bracket. That would make him having served with Jim Gordon almost impossible. Never mind that the odds that a a non-American served with Jim seems rather slim(though not entirely impossible).

- Second, the Bane we are discussing has a father who is pretty squarely British. If that's where they are going, you can't "Whitewash" a character who was white.

They seem to be far enough off that trying to make the comparison might not make any sense.

----------


## josai21

> only if its necceast for this Selina kyle to get implants or for this bruce to grow another 6 inches


Mazouz is 5'8. And only 17 years old.

He will prolly hit 6 foot once he's done growing. 

Honestly, I'd love for him to bulk up a bit between 18 and 22. Then maybe in 3 or four years we see HBO or something do a continuation with David as the lead for Batman. It won't happen, but I can dream.

----------

