# Comics  > Batman >  King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

## millernumber1

So, I'm pretty sure we can't setup an Appreciation thread for King's Batman run, but I'd like to try to get a conversation thread for fans who are generally enjoying the run. Obviously, we can't enforce Appreciation thread rules, but I would counsel that if a wholly negative post is entered into the thread, that instead of getting derailed, the conversation just part around it and continue to discuss the things we think are interesting and enjoyable.

I don't intend this as a wholly appreciative thread, either. There are some stuff in King's run which I haven't enjoyed, some plots which I think have holes, some art that I didn't respond to. But on the whole, I think there should be a place for people to talk about the book which isn't just a bunch of "King is a hack" "I hate this" "A new low for this book" etc.

This would also be a pretty cool place to post variants for #50 that's coming out, since we don't have a thread for that yet.  :Smile: 

Middleton Batman 50.jpg

Arcs to this point:

I Am Gotham - Rebirth + 1-6
Night of the Monster Men
I Am Suicide - 9-13
Annual #1 - Good Boy, 
Rooftops - 14-15
I Am Bane - 16-20
The Button - 21-22
Brave and the Mold - 23
Aftermath - 24
War of Jokes and Riddles - 25-32
Rules of Engagement - 33-35
Annual #2 - Date Nights/Last Rites
Superfriends - 36-37
The Origin of Bruce Wayne - 38
Superfriends part 2 - 39-40
Everyone Loves Ivy - 41-43
Bride or Burglar - 44
The Gift - 45-47
The Best Man - 48-49
The Wedding - 50

As we get going, I'll probably try to post some thoughts and analysis for these arcs as I think of them. I'll probably also link some of the video essays or articles, like Strip Panel Naked, which I think illuminate some of what King's doing.

Hope to see people in here soon!

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## SiegePerilous02

Excellent idea for a thread. I too would not be interested in a total appreciation thread, because there should be room for constructive criticism. I dropped the single issues so any in depth discussion for the issues not yet in trade I won't be able to participate in, but I will check this out from time to time, especially when the arcs in the first five trades are being discussed.

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## BatmanJones

Thank you!

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## BatmanJones

> Excellent idea for a thread. I too would not be interested in a total appreciation thread, because there should be room for constructive criticism. I dropped the single issues so any in depth discussion for the issues not yet in trade I won't be able to participate in, but I will check this out from time to time, especially when the arcs in the first five trades are being discussed.


Constructive criticism, sure. Of course. But it's wonderful to have a thread here where 75% of the posters in it aren't on a campaign to destroy any love anyone might have for King's series. The other threads about his run are so venomous I avoid them as much as I can. 

The posts about King's run have really made me empathize with those that loved Zach Snyder's take on the DCEU. Personally, I hated it and thought it a disaster but, while I was vocal about my dislike of his work, I never posted anywhere to tell others they were wrong for liking or loving it. The difference is that this board has a lot of vocal Zach Snyder supporters. Posters that hate King's Batman have made this forum an unpleasant place to talk about King's outstanding run so fans of it are reticent to poke their heads up, knowing they'll be told to explain their love of such a horrible series. It takes all the fun out of it.

And I'm not sure why this thread couldn't have "appreciation thread" rules, but I'll take what I can get. A place on the best comics forum in the world where it's safe to love King's Batman? Finally. And thank you.

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## millernumber1

> Excellent idea for a thread. I too would not be interested in a total appreciation thread, because there should be room for constructive criticism. I dropped the single issues so any in depth discussion for the issues not yet in trade I won't be able to participate in, but I will check this out from time to time, especially when the arcs in the first five trades are being discussed.


Yes! I want to go through the issues, old and new, and talk about the things that moved us, and stuff that didn't. The stuff that didn't is a weakness, but in general, I think there's plenty of excellent stuff here. Hopefully enough other people feel the same way!

I hadn't thought about the spoiler issues - I think generally assuming that for the first week of release, we'll be having spoiler-tagged discussions about the current issue, but after the first week, maybe just be sure to include a note about the issue number you're talking about early in the post, so people who aren't caught up can make the decision to skip.




> Constructive criticism, sure. Of course. But it's wonderful to have a thread here where 75% of the posters in it aren't on a campaign to destroy any love anyone might have for King's series. The other threads about his run are so venomous I avoid them as much as I can. 
> 
> The posts about King's run have really made me empathize with those that loved Zach Snyder's take on the DCEU. Personally, I hated it and thought it a disaster but, while I was vocal about my dislike of his work, I never posted anywhere to tell others they were wrong for liking or loving it. The difference is that this board has a lot of vocal Zach Snyder supporters. Posters that hate King's Batman have made this forum an unpleasant place to talk about King's outstanding run so fans of it are reticent to poke their heads up, knowing they'll be told to explain their love of such a horrible series. It takes all the fun out of it.
> 
> And I'm not sure why this thread couldn't have "appreciation thread" rules, but I'll take what I can get. A place on the best comics forum in the world where it's safe to love King's Batman? Finally. And thank you.


Yeah, I was just reassigned from reviewing Detective Comics to Batman, so I am moving from a more casual enjoyment to more analytical, and I would love to have more conversation about about what's going on to inform my reviews. And when I peeked into the most recent issue's thread, it's was really distressing.

I don't want to push for appreciation rules because I do want to be able to express constructive criticism, and also because I haven't seen anyone doing a non-character-based appreciation thread.

Please, come in and love it! I've really appreciated your essays on what the series means to you!

I think I'll try to reread I Am Gotham in the next day or so, and post about it soon. We've got about a week and a half before the next new issue comes out, so plenty of time to get the thread started.

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## Phoenyxx1481

I really enjoy how much he has put into the Bruce/Selina relationship.  They've have so much on-again, off-again over the years its nice to see a level of commitment between the characters and the writer.  I think the last time they had anything that was long term was during Loeb's Hush run.  I've re-read that one recently and enjoy their current relationship much more because I feel King 's run does a better job of showing the relationship while Loeb's run relied more on telling.  I remember some quote from Loeb's run about "If we're going to be in each other's lives, then we need to be in each others lives," and being dissapointed that you didn't see the little things that come from being in each others lives.  Now, we get that.  We got a great issue about going to a fair with Clark and Lois.  There a a few things I could nit-pick about, but for me the positives outweigh the negatives.

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## Vakanai

I only manage to grab somewhere along three to six trades a year, and not all of them are Batman, and I am still kind of early in my collection so I am mostly focused on the classics and must reads, so I can't keep up with any one writer's run or any one title...but I do make exceptions for origin stories and early in his career Batman stories, so I did recently read The War of Jokes and Riddles! Spoilers ahead.

I really rather enjoyed this one. Now, I don't think it will ever be considered a classic on the same level as Year One or The Long Halloween, nor did I like it as much as the first part of Zero Year (the Red Hood arc), but they can't all be that big, and it was still a fun read. The dialogue between Joker and Riddler was one of the highlights, nailing their personalities as they used jokes and riddles to cut each other down verbally, and the reveal at the end that the Riddler had orchestrated the whole war and was the smartest man in the room was one of the best Riddler moments I have read to date. He felt much more like the grand mastermind here than in his half of Zero Year. And perhaps the best part of the whole story was the origin of Kite Man! He kept his status as a joke villain, but one with tragic pathos that you truly felt for, hell yeah! And Batman tried to kill Riddler because of what he did to create Kite Man, and the Joker stopped him! And it was actually believable! So, maybe not a classic, it was a very fun read and a worthy addition to Batman's early years. If I can make some complaints, I would have liked to have seen more of the war between the villains and the collateral damage (especially more of the fight between Deadshot and Deathstroke) since so much of it happened off panel.

I could definitely go for more stories like this one, especially if they give secondary characters like Kite Man such good parts and make Riddler feel like the A list villain he is. Very much would recommend this book.

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## millernumber1

> I only manage to grab somewhere along three to six trades a year, and not all of them are Batman, and I am still kind of early in my collection so I am mostly focused on the classics and must reads, so I can't keep up with any one writer's run or any one title...but I do make exceptions for origin stories and early in his career Batman stories, so I did recently read The War of Jokes and Riddles! Spoilers ahead.
> 
> I really rather enjoyed this one. Now, I don't think it will ever be considered a classic on the same level as Year One or The Long Halloween, nor did I like it as much as the first part of Zero Year (the Red Hood arc), but they can't all be that big, and it was still a fun read. The dialogue between Joker and Riddler was one of the highlights, nailing their personalities as they used jokes and riddles to cut each other down verbally, and the reveal at the end that the Riddler had orchestrated the whole war and was the smartest man in the room was one of the best Riddler moments I have read to date. He felt much more like the grand mastermind here than in his half of Zero Year. And perhaps the best part of the whole story was the origin of Kite Man! He kept his status as a joke villain, but one with tragic pathos that you truly felt for, hell yeah! And Batman tried to kill Riddler because of what he did to create Kite Man, and the Joker stopped him! And it was actually believable! So, maybe not a classic, it was a very fun read and a worthy addition to Batman's early years. If I can make some complaints, I would have liked to have seen more of the war between the villains and the collateral damage (especially more of the fight between Deadshot and Deathstroke) since so much of it happened off panel.
> 
> I could definitely go for more stories like this one, especially if they give secondary characters like Kite Man such good parts and make Riddler feel like the A list villain he is. Very much would recommend this book.


The Kite Man interludes, and the way that tied into the conclusion, were definitely the highlight of War of Jokes and Riddles for me! I think it's about the same level as Zero Year for me, maybe a bit more, because it's less grandiose and makes fewer changes to the way I think about Batman's origin.

I also appreciate the prominence of Clay Mann in the art - really cool guy, and King seems to work very well with him!

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## SiegePerilous02

> Yes! I want to go through the issues, old and new, and talk about the things that moved us, and stuff that didn't. The stuff that didn't is a weakness, but in general, I think there's plenty of excellent stuff here. Hopefully enough other people feel the same way!
> 
> I hadn't thought about the spoiler issues - I think generally assuming that for the first week of release, we'll be having spoiler-tagged discussions about the current issue, but after the first week, maybe just be sure to include a note about the issue number you're talking about early in the post, so people who aren't caught up can make the decision to skip.


I personally don't care about spoilers, but this might be a good idea.

Anyway, brief thoughts on positives and negatives:

Main Positives: I love moving the Bat/Cat relationship forward. They've been doing this dance since before most of us were born, and it seems like something is actually happening for a change. I've shipped them since I was like 3 lol, and I love how he writes them as two damaged individuals who view each other as kindred spirits and want to help each other find happiness. The War of Jokes and Riddles was essentially Bruce laying himself bare to Selina and saying he's not the hero everyone views him as, which is honestly just him him being too hard of himself and not something we are meant to agree with (IMO), and I love that Selina accepts him anyway. 

Utilizing pre-Crisis lore in fun and interesting ways. Seeing the parade of Selina's various costumes through the years was great (wish they could have worked the Batman Returns and B:TAS ones in there somewhere). And I love the cameos by Captain Stingaree, Col. Blimp, the Monk and of course Kite-Man. Making me care about the latter was a Herculean feat. And bringing back Ace to continuity in an awesome and touching way.

Strong characterization for certain characters: Bruce and Selina, Alfred, Dick and Damian (especially when they are in scenes together), Superman and Lois, Bane, a surprisingly awesome take on the Ventriloquist and Swamp Ting spring to mind.


Main Negatives: I think he misses the mark with some characters. I'm not terribly invested in Holly or Booster Gold at all, so the uses here don't bother me personally to much but I can see why their fans would be upset. Holly's story at least doesn't appear to be over so maybe things will turn around. She's one of the bridesmaids on one of the alternate covers for #50, so if that reflects what will be in the issue, what's going on there? The use of Wonder Woman was also a big letdown. She deserves far better than that, especially now. Still, that seems to be the one controversy where King took to social media and seemed willing to learn from his mistakes. I'd be more than willing to let him have another shot at her, particularly as he referenced Jumpa (yay!) and after dealing with Robinson, I'll take anything I can get.

The characterizations for some of the rogues gallery are a bit iffy. The Joker worked fine in TWoJaR due to the context of where he was at, but jury's still out on the present day one. I read the DC Nation 0 story in the store and that was great, but I'm on the fence from what I've seen/heard of the latest issue. The Riddler is more brutal than I typically like; I was actually fine with Ivy killing those thugs, and am not thrilled with him back tracking as I like my Ivy with a bit more teeth, but he would be lining up with the current anti-heroic take on her I guess. Eager/cautious to see Mr. Freeze.

The dialogue can be annoying at times, but complaints about it are overblown IMO. Every writer has their quircks. You can tell a Grant Morrison script, a Geoff Johns script, a Greg Rucka script, a Gail Simone script and Scott Synder script apart from each other by the way the characters speak.

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## Vakanai

> The Kite Man interludes, and the way that tied into the conclusion, were definitely the highlight of War of Jokes and Riddles for me! I think it's about the same level as Zero Year for me, maybe a bit more, because it's less grandiose and makes fewer changes to the way I think about Batman's origin.
> 
> I also appreciate the prominence of Clay Mann in the art - really cool guy, and King seems to work very well with him!


Kite Man was a joke you wound up caring about, proving you don't need a villain to be super psycho or serious to be a memorable character. Like I said I prefer the first part of Zero Year to this, but this story definitely does the Riddler better than the second and third parts of Zero Year. It might also help that since I am a bit newer to comics and didn't grow up on Year One I'm not as set in thinking about Batman's origin a certain way, so I don't mind the changes (plus Year One always felt more like a Gordon origin, Zero Year feels more like a Batman origin to me). I also really like the Earth One stuff.

Is Clay Mann the artist for this? I really liked the art in this, it was very fitting for the story. The bit with Poison Ivy early on and the villain dinner at Wayne Manor really stood out for me for some reason.

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## millernumber1

> Kite Man was a joke you wound up caring about, proving you don't need a villain to be super psycho or serious to be a memorable character. Like I said I prefer the first part of Zero Year to this, but this story definitely does the Riddler better than the second and third parts of Zero Year. It might also help that since I am a bit newer to comics and didn't grow up on Year One I'm not as set in thinking about Batman's origin a certain way, so I don't mind the changes (plus Year One always felt more like a Gordon origin, Zero Year feels more like a Batman origin to me). I also really like the Earth One stuff.
> 
> Is Clay Mann the artist for this? I really liked the art in this, it was very fitting for the story. The bit with Poison Ivy early on and the villain dinner at Wayne Manor really stood out for me for some reason.


Clay Mann did the Kite Man sections. Mikel Janin was the main artist.

The Wayne Manor issue was really, really good. That was my turning point from being kinda meh to being engaged.

I feel you on Year One being Gordon's origin, but there's enough stuff for Bruce that I still can't dislodge it in my heart.

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## Vakanai

> Clay Mann did the Kite Man sections. Mikel Janin was the main artist.
> 
> The Wayne Manor issue was really, really good. That was my turning point from being kinda meh to being engaged.
> 
> I feel you on Year One being Gordon's origin, but there's enough stuff for Bruce that I still can't dislodge it in my heart.


I can understand your love for Year One, it is easily one of the best stories I've collected so far. In my own personal head canon I use both origin stories for Batman since the bulk of each story doesn't particularly contradict the other, and the one or two places where they do (like the "I will become a bat" moments) I just squint and go with the Year One version typically.

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## millernumber1

> I personally don't care about spoilers, but this might be a good idea.
> 
> Anyway, brief thoughts on positives and negatives:
> 
> Main Positives: I love moving the Bat/Cat relationship forward. They've been doing this dance since before most of us were born, and it seems like something is actually happening for a change. I've shipped them since I was like 3 lol, and I love how he writes them as two damaged individuals who view each other as kindred spirits and want to help each other find happiness. The War of Jokes and Riddles was essentially Bruce laying himself bare to Selina and saying he's not the hero everyone views him as, which is honestly just him him being too hard of himself and not something we are meant to agree with (IMO), and I love that Selina accepts him anyway. 
> 
> Utilizing pre-Crisis lore in fun and interesting ways. Seeing the parade of Selina's various costumes through the years was great (wish they could have worked the Batman Returns and B:TAS ones in there somewhere). And I love the cameos by Captain Stingaree, Col. Blimp, the Monk and of course Kite-Man. Making me care about the latter was a Herculean feat. And bringing back Ace to continuity in an awesome and touching way.
> 
> Strong characterization for certain characters: Bruce and Selina, Alfred, Dick and Damian (especially when they are in scenes together), Superman and Lois, Bane, a surprisingly awesome take on the Ventriloquist and Swamp Ting spring to mind.
> ...


We'll have to play it by ear on spoilers, but I do want to be respectful (since that's the whole goal of the thread.  :Smile:  )

Totally agree that BatCat progress is a big incentive for me. Though...if they screw the pooch at 50, I'm going to be very skeptical, I think. I'm sure there's a point, but soliciting a Wedding Album and then not having them married seems like a bad move. I think Selina's answer to Bruce's revelation in War of Jokes and Riddles is exactly what you say - "Who cares" - and it's dual layered. First, "It's not as big a deal as you think, Bruce - don't beat yourself up for it." AND it's "Who cares about YOU?" Implying that Selina loves Bruce, so she can help him move on.

I do love how much of a continuity nerd King is. Nothing's quite hit the level of Grayson #12 for me yet, but it's really great to see his reimagining of old scenes and such in #44. Not to mention winning an Eisner for Ace!

Your point about characters is well made - I don't care that much about Holly or Booster, either, but the use of Deathstroke in War of Jokes and Riddles, just being a random assassin to fight with Deadshot - that really annoyed me.

(The Bridesmaids cover is not reflective of the interior of the comic, per the commissioning comic shop. Which is probably good.  :Smile:  )

And yes, the Wonder Woman story didn't hit the way it should have, especially after the Superman issue. King has acknowledged that his cliffhanger shouldn't have gone the way it did. And I love that King is frequently willing to change and acknowledge mistakes, without letting it paralyze him (with the potential exception of what he did with Poison Ivy in Everyone Loves Ivy, which felt a bit too much like a retcon to me.) And I completely agree that King's voice for Diana is much better than Robinson's.

Interesting that you're on the fence with #48's Joker. I really liked this use of Joker - he's horrific, and I hate him (as I always hate the Joker), but he's interesting. Too often, he's just a ridiculous plot device, and here, it feels very much like an actual agent of chaos.

I do think that the dialogue isn't always effective, but it's not bad. It's artificial for a poetic purpose. And I like that kind of thing. But I'm an English  major, so of course I would.

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## WontonGirl

Thanks! I will also variants here as well  :Smile:

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## millernumber1

> Thanks! I will also variants here as well


Let's do it!  :Smile:

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## Sacred Knight

I always believed that #50 would define the run should King do anything mind-numbingly stupid all things considered. *spoilers:*
and he did.  By not going through with the wedding after nearly a year of advertising, marketing, and build up of such, he's sabotaged his entire run; its a complete and utter waste of investment.
*end of spoilers*

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## millernumber1

> I always believed that #50 would define the run should King do anything mind-numbingly stupid all things considered. *spoilers:*
> and he did.  By not going through with the wedding after nearly a year of advertising, marketing, and build up of such, he's sabotaged his entire run; its a complete and utter waste of investment.
> *end of spoilers*


I don't think it's necessarily a waste - and I say this as someone who's pretty darn disappointed. Because this is a midpoint. But I think it could have been a more interesting midpoint.

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## Katana500

> I don't think it's necessarily a waste - and I say this as someone who's pretty darn disappointed. Because this is a midpoint. But I think it could have been a more interesting midpoint.


I think once the 100 issues are up. Issue 50 will definitely be viewed differently.

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## nonsense man

No this is the high point of tom kings run on batman he wanted to deconstruct him and make him incompetent doing so mission accomplish I say

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## Chubistian

Damn, I don’t know if I should spoil myself the surprise. I can’t say I care much if they end up marrying or not, but how King tells it and what he will do with it. But in the other hand, DC pulled such a marketing stunt, that not going along with the wedding would feel as a fraud

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## millernumber1

> I think once the 100 issues are up. Issue 50 will definitely be viewed differently.


I hope so. But remember, it's 103.  :Wink: 




> No this is the high point of tom kings run on batman he wanted to deconstruct him and make him incompetent doing so mission accomplish I say


That's nonsense, man.  :Wink:

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## RepHope

A couple of you guys are saying "we're only halfway through the run, just be patient". Ok but the problem is now that people are pissed off how badly are sales going to drop? DC expects Batman to be selling around the 100k mark. If this stunt causes sales to dip below 90k King is going to be gone. Hell he might be mad enough to just leave thanks to DC's absolutely moronic marketing. 

_He might not GET to write 100 issues now_.

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## millernumber1

> A couple of you guys are saying "we're only halfway through the run, just be patient". Ok but the problem is now that people are pissed off how badly are sales going to drop? DC expects Batman to be selling around the 100k mark. If this stunt causes sales to dip below 90k King is going to be gone. Hell he might be mad enough to just leave thanks to DC's absolutely moronic marketing. 
> 
> _He might not GET to write 100 issues now_.


We'll have to wait and see on that. Tynion was planning to write 66 issues of Detective, and he only got 48. Tomasi and Gleason were planning on 100 issues of Superman, and they got 43ish. So you have a distinct point. I'll be very curious. I know I'm not planning to buy #50 at this point - but it's not like I cancelled my preorder. I just don't intend to pick it up from the stands or anything now. So that's not really a "lost sale". The real test will be the people who have it in their pull list.

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## SiegePerilous02

There's only so much patience you can expect from the audience, especially when they are forking over money for each individual magazine. The full picture should be saved until the end, but mini "rewards" and answers should be dropped along the way.

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## millernumber1

> There's only so much patience you can expect from the audience, especially when they are forking over money for each individual magazine. The full picture should be saved until the end, but mini "rewards" and answers should be dropped along the way.


Agreed. We'll have to see what the fallout is. And King better give one heck of a followup interview on Wednesday/Thursday.

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## scary harpy

> Originally Posted by RepHope
> 
> 
> A couple of you guys are saying "we're only halfway through the run, just be patient". Ok but the problem is now that people are pissed off how badly are sales going to drop? DC expects Batman to be selling around the 100k mark. If this stunt causes sales to dip below 90k King is going to be gone. Hell he might be mad enough to just leave thanks to DC's absolutely moronic marketing. 
> 
> _He might not GET to write 100 issues now_.
> 
> 
> We'll have to wait and see on that. Tynion was planning to write 66 issues of Detective, and he only got 48. Tomasi and Gleason were planning on 100 issues of Superman, and they got 43ish. So you have a distinct point. I'll be very curious. I know I'm not planning to buy #50 at this point - but it's not like I cancelled my preorder. I just don't intend to pick it up from the stands or anything now. So that's not really a "lost sale". The real test will be the people who have it in their pull list.


Should anyone really be surprised by this?

I mean, we have all seen this before: Writer X thinks s/he has Y number of issues but ends up with only Z. 

If I know this and you know this, then King must know this also. Disappointing, yes, but part of job.

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## Celgress

> I always believed that #50 would define the run should King do anything mind-numbingly stupid all things considered. *spoilers:*
> and he did.  By not going through with the wedding after nearly a year of advertising, marketing, and build up of such, he's sabotaged his entire run; its a complete and utter waste of investment.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
This is the Death of Superman all over again. Deceive the casual fans to make a quick buck. If this occurs, I'll never trust King again. I detest bait & switch.
*end of spoilers*

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## Talon1load

> *spoilers:*
> This is the Death of Superman all over again. Deceive the casual fans to make a quick buck. If this occurs, I'll never trust King again. I detest bait & switch.
> *end of spoilers*


Except Superman actually died for a period.

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## Celgress

> Except Superman actually died for a period.


*spoilers:*
Touché, you have a point lol.
*end of spoilers*

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## scary harpy

> Originally Posted by Talon1load
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Celgress
> ...



No one, and I do mean _no one_, expected Superman to *stay dead* for any substantial length of time.

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## Celgress

> No one, and I do mean _no one_, expected Superman to *stay dead* for any substantial length of time.


Me and my friends did, but we were kids at the time. I'll also argue that many casual friends thought he would as well as the media. I clearly recall people buying up his death issue because "it will be a collector's item".

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## Talon1load

Yep.  It was supposed to be DC making a bold move and heading in a new direction because many thought Superman was out dated.  I'm glad they didn't because I love Superman but still, at the time it was huge.

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## Celgress

> Yep.  It was supposed to be DC making a bold move and heading in a new direction because many thought Superman was out dated.  I'm glad they didn't because I love Superman but still, at the time it was huge.


*spoilers:*
I love Sups too and I'm also glad he come back. But acting as is everyone knew Superman would return at the time of the events is b.s. The difference here is the beans were spilled via the media before the trick could even be pulled. There are going to be bad consequences for DC I predict.
*end of spoilers*

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## Talon1load

> *spoilers:*
> I love Sups too and I'm also glad he come back. But acting as is everyone knew Superman would return at the time of the events is b.s. The difference here is the beans were spilled via the media before the trick could even be pulled. There are going to be bad consequences for DC I predict.
> *end of spoilers*


I agree.  The Death of Superman was handled much better.  I think everyone who recognizes me realizes that I've hated this entire run but for those who have enjoyed it, I think it's a slap in the face.

That being said, this is a King appreciation thread so I'll save the rest of my comments for other threads.

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## millernumber1

> I agree.  The Death of Superman was handled much better.  I think everyone who recognizes me realizes that I've hated this entire run but for those who have enjoyed it, I think it's a slap in the face.
> 
> That being said, this is a King appreciation thread so I'll save the rest of my comments for other threads.


Thanks! I mean, I am going to be unloading on this issue when it comes out on Wednesday, but hopefully also trying to find some good stuff in it.

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## Celgress

> I agree.  The Death of Superman was handled much better.  I think everyone who recognizes me realizes that I've hated this entire run but for those who have enjoyed it, I think it's a slap in the face.
> 
> That being said, this is a King appreciation thread so I'll save the rest of my comments for other threads.


Good idea, I'll also refrain from posting any further negative comments in this thread.

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## Talon1load

LOL, I hope you do find things about it you can enjoy.

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## Pohzee

> I agree.  The Death of Superman was handled much better.  I think everyone who recognizes me realizes that I've hated this entire run but for those who have enjoyed it, I think it's a slap in the face.


I mean, Ive enjoyed the run myself and I am not upset by the news in the slightest. Im here to read the story King has set out to tell, not for a wedding.

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## millernumber1

> Good idea, I'll also refrain from posting any further negative comments in this thread.


I mean, we've had a kerfuffle over the purpose of this thread before, but you don't have to be mindlessly fanboyish here. Like I said, I'm going to do some analysis on why I am less than happy with this issue, while still trying to appreciate King's craft.




> I mean, I’ve enjoyed the run myself and I am not upset by the news in the slightest. I’m here to read the story King has set out to tell, not for a wedding.


Interesting! Do you have speculations on what's going on, or just have faith?  :Smile:

----------


## Celgress

> I mean, we've had a kerfuffle over the purpose of this thread before, but you don't have to be mindlessly fanboyish here. Like I said, I'm going to do some analysis on why I am less than happy with this issue, while still trying to appreciate King's craft...


In my defense (as I stated in another post) I think King's run is meh overall the only interesting thing about it was the upcoming marriage. I merely tried to be positive because I was intrigued by the seemingly bold narrative direction. While angry I'm not a fanboy in any way. But I digress.

----------


## millernumber1

> In my defense (as I stated in another post) I think King's run is meh overall the only interesting thing about it was the upcoming marriage. I merely tried to be positive because I was intrigued by the seemingly bold narrative direction. While angry I'm not a fanboy in any way. But I digress.


Oh, that wasn't directed at you - I'm sorry! Someone else came in a posted _only_ negatively about the book. I don't mind comments which combine enjoyment with criticism. It's when it's just completely negative that I get a bit annoyed, because I was very careful with the way I worded the OP.

And I do hope it's a bold direction! I hope we'll see the fallout and progression in the next three months, instead of just meat and potatoes plots.

----------


## Celgress

> Oh, that wasn't directed at you - I'm sorry! Someone else came in a posted _only_ negatively about the book. I don't mind comments which combine enjoyment with criticism. It's when it's just completely negative that I get a bit annoyed, because I was very careful with the way I worded the OP.
> 
> And I do hope it's a bold direction! I hope we'll see the fallout and progression in the next three months, instead of just meat and potatoes plots.


Sorry I got that impress, my bad.  :Smile: 

I hope you are right. I don't want this to have merely been a publicity stunt, but I have my doubts now. Anyway, I don't want to further derail this thread.

----------


## millernumber1

> Sorry I got that impress, my bad. 
> 
> I hope you are right. I don't want this to have merely been a publicity stunt, but I have my doubts now. Anyway, I don't want to further derail this thread.


I think we have to split things up. King has done a bit of hyping, but most of the hype has been DC, with the tie-ins, and the spoiler interviews before release day, and the invitations. So I blame King less for this - though to be fair, if he'd gone with the exact same book, and DC did NOTHING, we'd probably all know "Oh, yeah, this isn't going to happen."

It's hard. I don't want to get in the way of King writing the story he wants to write, but...this just feels a bit cheap.

----------


## Celgress

> .....It's hard. I don't want to get in the way of King writing the story he wants to write, but...this just feels a bit cheap.


As I mentioned in another thread. I hope this is was a creative choice, not an editorial one (as sadly frequently happens with comics). I hope King did have input on the final say of the director at the very least.

----------


## millernumber1

> As I mentioned in another thread. I hope this is was a creative choice, not an editorial one (as sadly frequently happens with comics). I hope King did have input on the final say of the director at the very least.


I think King needs to give a killer INTERVIEW on Wednesday. If he thinks he can just let this speak for itself...I'm just not convinced that'll work.

----------


## scary harpy

> Me and my friends did, but we were kids at the time. I'll also argue that many casual friends thought he would as well as the media. I clearly recall people buying up his death issue because "it will be a collector's item".





> I love Sups too and I'm also glad he come back. But acting as is everyone knew Superman would return at the time of the events is b.s. The difference here is the beans were spilled via the media before the trick could even be pulled. There are going to be bad consequences for DC I predict.


Just for the sake of clarity: How old were you and your friends?

----------


## Celgress

> Just for the sake of clarity: How old were you and your friends?


In elementary school, so rather young.

----------


## scary harpy

> In elementary school, so rather young.


oh. 

okay. my bad.

I can see how some did not know Superman was returning.

----------


## Pohzee

> Interesting! Do you have speculations on what's going on, or just have faith?


No speculation, just faith. I’ve enjoyed the run so far for its exploration of the character, not for my expectation of the Wedding. If all is going as intended, which I assume it is, then I’m on board. I enjoy comics because I care about the characters, but I don’t have set expectations for what happens to them. What happens happens and I just hope it’s a good story. So far it has been. Also, having not read the detailed spoilers (just yes/no) I think that this might be a bit more relatable

—————————————

Alright, so I just reread the parts of King’s run that I had read yesterday and caught up on what I haven’t in order to prepare for issue #50. I really enjoyed it, but I definitely found some things that were not perfect.

The first large quibble that I had was the beginning of I Am Suicide. The story opens up with a lot of infodumping of status quo changes that makes you wonder, when did that happen? When did Catwoman “murder” 237 people? When did Bronze Tiger get addicted to Venom? What happened to Punch and Julee that landed punch in Santa Prisca? And the answer is of course that it wasn’t based on previous comics, it was just a status quo King set for the story arc to work. Obviously the smaller changes don’t really matter. And obviously the big one, Catwoman’s situation, is explained. But even that still leaves the question of when exactly this happened. Was it before I Am Gotham? Why didn’t we see this weighing upon Batman at all or even slightly suggested during that story then?

I mourn The War or Jokes and Riddles. I was extremely excited when I first heard King talking about it on podcasts. It really would have had the potential to be King’s stand-alone, perennial selling Batman story like Snyder’s Court of Owls. But that was if editorial has let it be the 12 issue miniseries that King had intended. Wrangling it into the main Batman book completely neutered it for two reasons. Firstly, the compression of the story from 12 issues to 8 issues really hindered the story. Short for pages, King tells too much of the story through representative splash pages and narration. Secondly, making it beholden to the ongoings of the Batman series makes this story completely irrelevant. It doesn’t work on its own because it is beholden to the engagement, but it is also just padding between Bruce popping the question and Selina saying yes. It’s an fantastic story concept with nice relationship beats at the end, but in the end it’s just unnecessary. I might just skip it in future rereads.

I don’t have much good to say about Everybody Loves Ivy or The Gift either. Both were clearly filler to get the wedding to be #50 and a plug for the upcoming Heroes in Crisis. ELI seemed like a strong overcorrection in response to a vocal minority of fans who took issue with King’s Ivy in TWoJaR. The Gift ended in a way so hilariously gruesome that it seemed like King parodying The Gun Goes Off and his violent storytelling in general.

BUT beyond all that, I really did enjoy it. Sadly, it’s a lot easier to criticize than to praise works of art. It’s difficult for me to elaborate more than “I like it” or “that’s nice.” But I enjoy the way that King writes Bruce. I find his voice for the character to be on point. I prefer this quieter, punctual Batman. Comparing The Best Man and TWoJaR to Snyder’s Endgame, there is a noticeable difference in Batman’s speech. Snyder’s Batman scolds and talks down to the criminals he is defeating. He makes it well known that he hates the Joker from his speech. But with King’s Batman, you can feel Batman’s hate for the Joker radiating from him. He doesn’t taunt him or lash out at him verbally. He speaks the bare minimum to get what he needs and says no more. In TWoJaR he speaks only to try to end the conflict. In all of The Best Man, Batman only says one word. He doesn’t spend the issue verbally assaulting the Joker for the murders he’s committed or calling him a lowly criminal like Snyder’s would. Instead, he is silent, seething. And that’s something that I prefer.

People complain about King’s Batman always being beaten up, ineffectual. But that’s not the case. One doesn’t necessitate the other. Batman is beaten many times in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. He’s killed in Everyone Loves Ivy. But in those instances it is not because he has been outmatched but because it is part of his plan. In the I Am Trilogy, he allows himself to take physical punishment to serve as a distraction to carry out a plan that goes successfully. In Everybody Loves Ivy he successfully baits Ivy into giving him head trauma to find Harley Quinn. And some people would say that that’s stupid. Batman should have a better plan than getting beat up. But it makes sense with King’s take on the character. Throwing himself recklessly into harm’s way is a masochistic symptom of his “suicide” as Batman. Being Batman to Bruce means suffering for the help of others and acting recklessly, and putting himself in a position where he will be punished is emblematic of that. 

I don’t have much more to add because most of the run to this point has been buildup to the wedding and reactions to that. They were all on point and enjoyable enough. I’m certainly not put off of this run and will continue to read it eagerly.

----------


## DarthNeo

I have enjoyed King WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more than Snyder.  The one story that I really did not agree with was, "I am Suicide."  IMO, even young Bruce Wayne would have NEVER contemplated that act...

----------


## millernumber1

> No speculation, just faith. I’ve enjoyed the run so far for its exploration of the character, not for my expectation of the Wedding. If all is going as intended, which I assume it is, then I’m on board. I enjoy comics because I care about the characters, but I don’t have set expectations for what happens to them. What happens happens and I just hope it’s a good story. So far it has been. Also, having not read the detailed spoilers (just yes/no) I think that this might be a bit more relatable
> 
> —————————————
> 
> Alright, so I just reread the parts of King’s run that I had read yesterday and caught up on what I haven’t in order to prepare for issue #50. I really enjoyed it, but I definitely found some things that were not perfect.
> 
> The first large quibble that I had was the beginning of I Am Suicide. The story opens up with a lot of infodumping of status quo changes that makes you wonder, when did that happen? When did Catwoman “murder” 237 people? When did Bronze Tiger get addicted to Venom? What happened to Punch and Julee that landed punch in Santa Prisca? And the answer is of course that it wasn’t based on previous comics, it was just a status quo King set for the story arc to work. Obviously the smaller changes don’t really matter. And obviously the big one, Catwoman’s situation, is explained. But even that still leaves the question of when exactly this happened. Was it before I Am Gotham? Why didn’t we see this weighing upon Batman at all or even slightly suggested during that story then?
> 
> I mourn The War or Jokes and Riddles. I was extremely excited when I first heard King talking about it on podcasts. It really would have had the potential to be King’s stand-alone, perennial selling Batman story like Snyder’s Court of Owls. But that was if editorial has let it be the 12 issue miniseries that King had intended. Wrangling it into the main Batman book completely neutered it for two reasons. Firstly, the compression of the story from 12 issues to 8 issues really hindered the story. Short for pages, King tells too much of the story through representative splash pages and narration. Secondly, making it beholden to the ongoings of the Batman series makes this story completely irrelevant. It doesn’t work on its own because it is beholden to the engagement, but it is also just padding between Bruce popping the question and Selina saying yes. It’s an fantastic story concept with nice relationship beats at the end, but in the end it’s just unnecessary. I might just skip it in future rereads.
> ...


Wow, really nice analysis! I think there's a good chance that we do see the Catwoman situation weighing on Batman in I Am Gotham - the fact that he's so resigned to death, already looking for a replacement, is a pretty different state of mind for Batman, in my reading. Catwoman's situation would help to explain why his emotional state seems so "off".  Pretty much agree about War of Jokes and Riddles - there are some really good things, but too much is squished in the loss of four issues.

In terms of Everyone Loves Ivy and The Gift - I think The Gift especially may play into the Wedding arc more than we know, but I just didn't enjoy it. Good point about The Gun Goes Off (Grayson #3) - an issue I also hated, though later issues somewhat helped with it. I think they're not precisely filler so much as setting up for Heroes in Crisis - and I'm really curious to see if Heroes in Crisis feeds back into Batman. Otherwise, it feels a bit like cannibalizing the sales of Batman to backdoor pilot another series. (And the retcon of Ivy does feel really odd, since she didn't get enough focus to justify this kind of delayed reaction five or more years later from War of Jokes and Riddles.)

I do appreciate the way King is economical with his dialogue for Batman, though every now and then, I think he goes too far (like at the end of The Gift, where Bruce and Selina say nothing). Much preferred to the boastful, almost shrill (and often contradictory) Bruce of Snyder's Joker stories.  And your idea that he's trying to take the suffering of others as Batman really fits into my somewhat spiritual reading of Batman - I really like that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No speculation, just faith. I’ve enjoyed the run so far for its exploration of the character, not for my expectation of the Wedding. If all is going as intended, which I assume it is, then I’m on board. I enjoy comics because I care about the characters, but I don’t have set expectations for what happens to them. What happens happens and I just hope it’s a good story. So far it has been. Also, having not read the detailed spoilers (just yes/no) I think that this might be a bit more relatable
> 
> —————————————
> 
> Alright, so I just reread the parts of King’s run that I had read yesterday and caught up on what I haven’t in order to prepare for issue #50. I really enjoyed it, but I definitely found some things that were not perfect.
> 
> The first large quibble that I had was the beginning of I Am Suicide. The story opens up with a lot of infodumping of status quo changes that makes you wonder, when did that happen? When did Catwoman “murder” 237 people? When did Bronze Tiger get addicted to Venom? What happened to Punch and Julee that landed punch in Santa Prisca? And the answer is of course that it wasn’t based on previous comics, it was just a status quo King set for the story arc to work. Obviously the smaller changes don’t really matter. And obviously the big one, Catwoman’s situation, is explained. But even that still leaves the question of when exactly this happened. Was it before I Am Gotham? Why didn’t we see this weighing upon Batman at all or even slightly suggested during that story then?
> 
> I mourn The War or Jokes and Riddles. I was extremely excited when I first heard King talking about it on podcasts. It really would have had the potential to be King’s stand-alone, perennial selling Batman story like Snyder’s Court of Owls. But that was if editorial has let it be the 12 issue miniseries that King had intended. Wrangling it into the main Batman book completely neutered it for two reasons. Firstly, the compression of the story from 12 issues to 8 issues really hindered the story. Short for pages, King tells too much of the story through representative splash pages and narration. Secondly, making it beholden to the ongoings of the Batman series makes this story completely irrelevant. It doesn’t work on its own because it is beholden to the engagement, but it is also just padding between Bruce popping the question and Selina saying yes. It’s an fantastic story concept with nice relationship beats at the end, but in the end it’s just unnecessary. I might just skip it in future rereads.
> ...


This sums up how I really feel about the War of Jokes and Riddles it was an epic idea that fell apart because it didn't have the space to tell the story properly it would have been worth it to see Deadshot and Deathstroke fight each other. But DC for some reason wanted to cheapen it that's bad.

----------


## millernumber1

> This sums up how I really feel about the War of Jokes and Riddles it was an epic idea that fell apart because it didn't have the space to tell the story properly it would have been worth it to see Deadshot and Deathstroke fight each other. But DC for some reason wanted to cheapen it that's bad.


I think "cheapen" isn't quite what DC wanted. I think they did make a mistake, especially since they didn't ask King if he wanted to do it, they just told him. They were trying to maximize the story that King was telling, get the biggest audience available, and his 12-issue miniseries, though popular, didn't necessarily sell super well all the way through.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think "cheapen" isn't quite what DC wanted. I think they did make a mistake, especially since they didn't ask King if he wanted to do it, they just told him. They were trying to maximize the story that King was telling, get the biggest audience available, and his 12-issue miniseries, though popular, didn't necessarily sell super well all the way through.


So DC told King that his story would not have sold well if it was a 12 issue mini-series? Because if it did it probably would have been a  whole lot more interesting. it was also that story where King managed to sell me on a humourless Joker even though I was not into the idea.

----------


## millernumber1

> So DC told King that his story would not have sold well if it was a 12 issue mini-series? Because if it did it probably would have been a  whole lot more interesting. it was also that story where King managed to sell me on a humourless Joker even though I was not into the idea.


From what I can tell from the podcast at WordBalloon, King submitted his request to do a 12-issue miniseries, and they sat on it for a while, then came back and said, "We've approved this - AS THE MAIN SERIES." They didn't tell him way, from what he said.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> From what I can tell from the podcast at WordBalloon, King submitted his request to do a 12-issue miniseries, and they sat on it for a while, then came back and said, "We've approved this - AS THE MAIN SERIES." They didn't tell him way, from what he said.


Um what way?

----------


## millernumber1

> Um what way?


Whoops, that should have been "why" not "way." My bad.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Whoops, that should have been "why" not "way." My bad.


Looks like no matter howmuch influence you have as a writer DC will still do their head scratching ideas no matter what. They didn't tell why Stephanie could be brought back from the dead to be redeemed and they won't tell Tom King why did the War of Jokes and Riddles had to be part of the main series. They need new leaders but even then there is no guarantee that it will work as evident by C.B. Cebulski's desire to bring back two series that failed witht eh same creative team who ruined them though allegedly they did well in trades.

----------


## Deffinition

I am quite enjoying it, his stories always feel like they fail to climax slightly because of the restrictions of working within the smaller issues that rebirth allows for. The personal levels that his stories go to cannot be faulted though and I think he has provided some interesting takes such as a joker that cannot laugh and Bruce and Selinas wedding

----------


## millernumber1

Just a request: if you are going to post spoilers, please use spoiler tags. There are many thread participants who are not caught up.

----------


## Chubistian

> I mean, I’ve enjoyed the run myself and I am not upset by the news in the slightest. I’m here to read the story King has set out to tell, not for a wedding.


I couldn't help myself and saw the spoiler haha. *spoilers:*
 I'm with you, but still I don't like DC advertising the wedding for over a year just to not go along with it. If the story was the same, without DC making a huge deal of it, I would've been fine, but it's the way the business works. We still have to see how King will play this out, I expect a few surprises at least, and we have a huge number of artists working in the issue to delight our eyes 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Vermathrax

I enjoyed Kings run. I am disappointed in the ending, IF it is how it seems. I really thought several of the story's were well written, some air had problems with. Overall, I can say it was like a great meal, with a very bad dessert.

----------


## millernumber1

> I enjoyed Kings run. I am disappointed in the ending, IF it is how it seems. I really thought several of the story's were well written, some air had problems with. Overall, I can say it was like a great meal, with a very bad dessert.


I am right there with you in being disappointed, but I don't think we can say this is the end. I do hope King has the space to finish this right.

----------


## Mateo3000

Already posted this in the NY times thread but then I realized I should post it here: 

To me it seems like Tom King and DC comics want to move Batman further into the status quo to inevitability prop him back up again. What I mean is that they're going to make batman even darker, more brooding, drive him into depression, and be even more unhappy than ever before. It looks like King (and DC) want to put Bruce through the ultimate hell and is using Bane as the final boss. I do think that after Bruce inevitability takes down Bane he'll get back together with Selina, and maybe even marry her. The issue I have with this payoff (aside from all the bs DC false advertising and marketing) is that I feel it will come at the very end of King's run and only last for about 2 issues. I worry that the only meaningful new development that comes to Batman's characterization will only last for those few issues because I assume King will leave after that. And then a new author will probably revert batman, at least a little, to the old status quo and it just won't be written well.

----------


## Chubistian

King returning to Bane would be great and gets me excited as a fan of the character, but I don’t want to get hyped with rumors. I’m still eager to see what we will get in issue #50, wedding or not

----------


## oasis1313

> Already posted this in the NY times thread but then I realized I should post it here: 
> 
> To me it seems like Tom King and DC comics want to move Batman further into the status quo to inevitability prop him back up again. What I mean is that they're going to make batman even darker, more brooding, drive him into depression, and be even more unhappy than ever before. It looks like King (and DC) want to put Bruce through the ultimate hell and is using Bane as the final boss. I do think that after Bruce inevitability takes down Bane he'll get back together with Selina, and maybe even marry her. The issue I have with this payoff (aside from all the bs DC false advertising and marketing) is that I feel it will come at the very end of King's run and only last for about 2 issues. I worry that the only meaningful new development that comes to Batman's characterization will only last for those few issues because I assume King will leave after that. And then a new author will probably revert batman, at least a little, to the old status quo and it just won't be written well.


Back to depressing old Bat-God.  Yawn.

----------


## gregpersons

#50 was a bummer.

I enjoyed the Bane reveal, and like his plot, i guess, but I'm annoyed that it worked. A more powerful ending would've been revealing Bane was manipulating Selina, and making it seem like she would fall for it and run away, and then see her make her own decision — the one she showed herself to be comfortable with owning for the past 25 issues — and make the choice to go through with it.

Their dynamic has been the major joy of this run, and the fact that we now have to go through their break-up is .... well, it's just kind of annoying. It's not the most fun or interesting or challenging path the story could've taken. 

For a run that has so often brought a great freshness and new life to Batman tales, to fall back on something so routine, it's just disappointing.

The hype balloon I had for this run has deflated. The desire to keep re-reading the back issues of this run, as I had been, has gone away, knowing where it leads.

----------


## CPSparkles

Can't understand why everyone so surprised with the twist didn't anyone think it was strange that Bruce was only proposing because Thomas and Gotham Girl of all people convinced him he wasn't happy prompting him to propose?

Personally this is the 1st time in like a year I've been interested in King's batman.

----------


## Armor of God

So where does the run go from here? I like Bane but King used him in 2 stories. What can King do with him now?

----------


## gregpersons

> Can't understand why everyone so surprised with the twist didn't anyone think it was strange that Bruce was only proposing because Thomas and Gotham Girl of all people convinced him he wasn't happy prompting him to propose?
> 
> Personally this is the 1st time in like a year I've been interested in King's batman.


Because the twist is lame as hell, that's why. It means that neither Bruce nor Selina were really "in charge" of their decisions. They were being carefully manipulated by Bane.

It sucks for both characters, because it removes them of agency.

----------


## gregpersons

> So where does the run go from here? I like Bane but King used him in 2 stories. What can King do with him now?


My guess is that, eventually, Bane will reveal his hand. Or that it will be discovered. At some point down the line, Batman & Bane & Catwoman will be in conflict again.

After Bat/Cat reunite to take Bane down, again — revenge for revenge for revenge — then they will probably wonder, "What if we stopped this cycle? What if we changed?"

And they will wonder, and wonder, but never change.

That's my guess for something that would be in keeping with the run's themes.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Because the twist is lame as hell, that's why. It means that neither Bruce nor Selina were really "in charge" of their decisions. They were being carefully manipulated by Bane.
> 
> It sucks for both characters, because it removes them of agency.


We already knew Bruce wasn't in charge of his decisions. I didn't see it being Bane that was a twist. I was expecting someone or something much bigger and darker.

----------


## Restingvoice

So I read the spoilers and... I still don't care, because that's not the story I'm interested to read. So apparently there's a villain planning and manipulating everything. That's nothing new. That's Light Yagami saying "just as planned"
Batman and Catwoman marrying in actual Earth... whatever number this is... will be new and different, as I will see a new dynamic that Earth-2 skip. Their marriage life before having a child, and how both of them adjust to this new life. 
Enough difference, actually, for me to ignore all the other inconsistencies DC had throughout their universe and their delayed timeline-fixing plot, to actually start reading again, and maybe also pick up all of the story leading up to this. 
So now, Batman #100... I guess? If they actually get married there, maybe I will pick it up? ...and maybe the story leading up to that? But that's a big if, and only if they're actually get married and last more than at least a year. So that will be... at least two years from now.

----------


## dietrich

Okay there's no way this run stays part of DC canon unless Bruce is about to retire. All the villains can't know Bruce is Batman.

Holly at the Manor That one scene shows why Batcat can never happen until both are ready to hang up their masks. It felt wrong Batman hobnobbing with those he's supposed to be fighting.

Also ewww Selina put some underpants on you're a grownarse woman. Way to keep it Classy.
And No Selina you are not a Hero. You are a thief who stole her wedding dress.

This is possibly the worst comic I've ever read. Bruce and Selina sound like dunces and it assumes readers are stupid.

----------


## Chubistian

I will be spoiling the issue, so for those who haven't read it and are still trying to stay safe from spoilers, jump my post.

As a PR stunt, the wedding was underwhelming, why bother to go to such lenghts, even offering so many expensive and exclusives variant covers is beyond me. Some secrecy was in order, and this story could've benefit from receiving less attention and just tell the story it needed to tell.

Because the story fits the tone and path the serie was following. Both ways were possible, they marry or they don't, the seed of doubt was already there, especially with Joker two-part arc. The issue is rather well told, with some amazing art, and I like that the idea of the letters came back, since the way Selina and Bruce talked about each other was more fitting that way.

What this issue does best is, like #24, make the whole second year (and a little more) of King's Batman come full circle but it also ties the first and second year. Everything that happenend in the first 24 issues regain importance and I, sincerely, don't know where the story will go from here (except for Batman being angrier), which is always exciting. 

Now, I'll let some of my fanatism go out... DAMN BANE, YOU REALLY DID IT THIS TIME. Janin owed me a Bane in costume, so I'm satisfied in that aspect and really wondering wtf with Bane's team. I don't know if the payoff will be satisfying, but if there's a place where such a twist could work, it's in comicbooks.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Okay there's no way this run stays part of DC canon unless Bruce is about to retire. All the villains can't know Bruce is Batman.


I don't think they do. Bane already knows and likes to keep it to himself. Since they're all working under him, there's no need for the ones who know to share it with the ones who don't know. The others would be on a need-to-know basis. Assuming the good guys are under influence, they won't be made to reveal it either because the hypnotist is intimidated by Bane.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't think they do. Bane already knows and likes to keep it to himself. Since they're all working under him, there's no need for the ones who know to share it with the ones who don't know. The others would be on a need-to-know basis. Assuming the good guys are under influence, they won't be made to reveal it either because the hypnotist is intimidated by Bane.


Nah Holly knows as do GG, Joker, Ivy, Harley. I don't see how it's not being spread around Arkham once Holly returns from her visit to the manor.

----------


## Chubistian

> Nah Holly knows as do GG, Joker, Ivy, Harley. I don't see how it's not being spread around Arkham once Holly returns from her visit to the manor.


Would it be spread though? Harley and Ivy play closer to the "good" guys nowadays and we don't know yet what GG and Holly's true intentions are, but pre N52 Riddler knew Bruce's identity and he never gave it away and Joker was explicitly revelead to know it in Snyder's Endgame and he didn't say a thing to anyone. Hugo Strange also has been aware of Batman's identity in more than one continuity and Bane has always known it (except, MAYBE, in the N52, since he never did say something that could lead someone to think he knew it). Skeeter and Thomas Wayne are from the future and another timeline respectively , and those type of characters don't go out spoiling everything they know usually. Ventriloquist and PP can pefectly be with the team, unaware of Batman's identity, the latter being someone aware of every continuity though... Well, anyone except from Thomas, GG, Holly, Joker and Bane can be unaware of Batman's identity as far as we know and only know some information of the overall plan to break the Bat ... again

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nah Holly knows as do GG, Joker, Ivy, Harley. I don't see how it's not being spread around Arkham once Holly returns from her visit to the manor.


No, I know they know. That's why I said I don't think they, the ones who know, tell the ones who don't know (Ventriloquist, Riddler, Strange) as long as they're working with Bane. 

(I said, "I don't think they do". I should've said, "I don't think all of them do". My mistake)

About Holly, I only read what's available on the internet. Was the Bane meeting in Arkham? Meaning it's been taken over by Bane? Meaning Holly is free and not detained by Batman?

If so that depends on how much she cares. Let's say she follows Bane's plan to get her self out of jail, because letting Selina married meaning she feels like she has to confess her murder to let Selina live a happy life, just like what they discussed in Talia's sanctuary. If that's the case then she won't need to reveal Batman's identity to anyone, since the plan succeeded. On top of Bane possibly killing her for doing so, of course

----------


## dietrich

> No, I know they know. That's why I said I don't think they, the ones who know, tell the ones who don't know (Ventriloquist, Riddler, Strange) as long as they're working with Bane. 
> 
> (I said, "I don't think they do". I should've said, "I don't think all of them do". My mistake)
> 
> About Holly, I only read what's available on the internet. Was the Bane meeting in Arkham? Meaning it's been taken over by Bane? Meaning Holly is free and not detained by Batman?
> 
> If so that depends on how much she cares. Let's say she follows Bane's plan to get her self out of jail, because letting Selina married meaning she feels like she has to confess her murder to let Selina live a happy life, just like what they discussed in Talia's sanctuary. If that's the case then she won't need to reveal Batman's identity to anyone, since the plan succeeded. On top of Bane possibly killing her for doing so, of course


Holly is locked up at Arkham but it seems like she can come and go. I don't think Bane will care if anyone cares knows. Selina sure didn't seem to care if Holly knew. There was nothing to suggest it was secret. I mean Selina blind folded Holly on the way to Wayne manor and then took the Blindfold off for her to see the surroundings, Bruce and move around the place.

I how idiotic is that? What was the point of that? So she wont know the directions to Wayne manor? 

Right now Batman, his principals and his secret identity is a joke.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Holly is locked up at Arkham but it seems like she can come and go. I don't think Bane will care if anyone cares knows. Selina sure didn't seem to care if Holly knew. There was nothing to suggest it was secret. I mean Selina blind folded Holly on the way to Wayne manor and then took the Blindfold off for her to see the surroundings, Bruce and move around the place.
> 
> I how idiotic is that? What was the point of that? So she wont know the directions to Wayne manor? 
> 
> Right now Batman, his principals and his secret identity is a joke.


Oh yeah, that is weird. If Holly's locked up in Arkham then I assume somewhere in the past Batman already handed her over, which explains how Selina can just walk around free in town in the past issues, but how she can just come and go from Arkham... and getting blindfolded on the way, only to let her see Bruce... that's just counterproductive. 

Selina I guess just trust Holly for being a friend, and Bruce trusts Selina... oh wait... are they assuming because Holly handed herself over for Selina's happiness, that's why they feel they can trust her?

The reason I think Bane care is based on the previous characterization. He never told anyone he found out Batman's identity. I assume because he doesn't want other villains to destroy Batman without being part of his plan.

----------


## millernumber1

> My guess is that, eventually, Bane will reveal his hand. Or that it will be discovered. At some point down the line, Batman & Bane & Catwoman will be in conflict again.
> 
> After Bat/Cat reunite to take Bane down, again — revenge for revenge for revenge — then they will probably wonder, "What if we stopped this cycle? What if we changed?"
> 
> And they will wonder, and wonder, but never change.
> 
> That's my guess for something that would be in keeping with the run's themes.


For this twist to actually matter, I hope that King deals with both Bane and Batman's plots immediately, and doesn't just let it sit. Otherwise it will feel like he took the easy way out of the marriage, which I think would have been harder to write.




> I will be spoiling the issue, so for those who haven't read it and are still trying to stay safe from spoilers, jump my post.
> 
> As a PR stunt, the wedding was underwhelming, why bother to go to such lenghts, even offering so many expensive and exclusives variant covers is beyond me. Some secrecy was in order, and this story could've benefit from receiving less attention and just tell the story it needed to tell.
> 
> Because the story fits the tone and path the serie was following. Both ways were possible, they marry or they don't, the seed of doubt was already there, especially with Joker two-part arc. The issue is rather well told, with some amazing art, and I like that the idea of the letters came back, since the way Selina and Bruce talked about each other was more fitting that way.
> 
> What this issue does best is, like #24, make the whole second year (and a little more) of King's Batman come full circle but it also ties the first and second year. Everything that happenend in the first 24 issues regain importance and I, sincerely, don't know where the story will go from here (except for Batman being angrier), which is always exciting. 
> 
> Now, I'll let some of my fanatism go out... DAMN BANE, YOU REALLY DID IT THIS TIME. Janin owed me a Bane in costume, so I'm satisfied in that aspect and really wondering wtf with Bane's team. I don't know if the payoff will be satisfying, but if there's a place where such a twist could work, it's in comicbooks.


Well said. I do like the idea that everyone being there means it's all been part of a plan - though I'm very curious if this plan started with I Am Suicide, or if it's from the beginning, as is implied by Gotham Girl and Hugo Strange being part of the group. (When my review posts, I'll probably link or repost it here, since I spent a long time thinking through this issue in it.)




> Would it be spread though? Harley and Ivy play closer to the "good" guys nowadays and we don't know yet what GG and Holly's true intentions are, but pre N52 Riddler knew Bruce's identity and he never gave it away and Joker was explicitly revelead to know it in Snyder's Endgame and he didn't say a thing to anyone. Hugo Strange also has been aware of Batman's identity in more than one continuity and Bane has always known it (except, MAYBE, in the N52, since he never did say something that could lead someone to think he knew it). Skeeter and Thomas Wayne are from the future and another timeline respectively , and those type of characters don't go out spoiling everything they know usually. Ventriloquist and PP can pefectly be with the team, unaware of Batman's identity, the latter being someone aware of every continuity though... Well, anyone except from Thomas, GG, Holly, Joker and Bane can be unaware of Batman's identity as far as we know and only know some information of the overall plan to break the Bat ... again


I pretty much agree with this reasoning.




> Holly is locked up at Arkham but it seems like she can come and go. I don't think Bane will care if anyone cares knows. Selina sure didn't seem to care if Holly knew. There was nothing to suggest it was secret. I mean Selina blind folded Holly on the way to Wayne manor and then took the Blindfold off for her to see the surroundings, Bruce and move around the place.


I don't think Holly can come and go - I think that was just Selina's planning for one night. But the implication was that Selina and Holly both knew from the first night they met Batman in Batman Year One. I don't quite get the blindfold, though.

----------


## BruceWayneJr.

Bad plots I can handle, but this thing is just written so poorly written. And if half your book is pin-up art, don't ruin it by slapping "Bat" or "Cat" randomly on the page. King isn't a third as deep or clever as he thinks he is.

----------


## millernumber1

> Bad plots I can handle, but this thing is just written so poorly written. And if half your book is pin-up art, don't ruin it by slapping "Bat" or "Cat" randomly on the page. King isn't a third as deep or clever as he thinks he is.


I'm really not a fan of the us of pinups, but I thought the letters themselves, the parallels, and the character interactions between Bruce and Alfred were really, really well done.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't think Holly can come and go - I think that was just Selina's planning for one night. But the implication was that Selina and Holly both knew from the first night they met Batman in Batman Year One. I don't quite get the blindfold, though.


That makes more sense. Selina wants her best friend to be there before they go their separate ways, so she broke her out.

----------


## millernumber1

> That makes more sense. Selina wants her best friend to be there before they go their separate ways, so she broke her out.


She didn't really break her out - she just took her out, then put her back.

As for "best friend"...I know some people really love Holly and Selina's friendship, but Holly's been a pretty terrible friend in this run. Framing Selina, running away and sticking her with the death penalty, then *spoilers:*
working for Bane to destroy every chance of happines...
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Waterfall

I absolutely enjoyed the issue. The fault falls on DC and the PR team for hyping it up as something it wasn't.

----------


## millernumber1

> I absolutely enjoyed the issue. The fault falls on DC and the PR team for hyping it up as something it wasn't.


I think there is a sort of problem on King's end, but the real blame definitely falls on the overhyping and spoiling, agreed.

What did you like best about the issue? For me, it was Bruce and Alfred, and the parallels, especially the final pages of Bruce and Selina, *spoilers:*
jumping off the rooftops in opposite directions.
*end of spoilers* My heart almost stopped, it was so beautiful and painful.

----------


## Armor of God

My prediction, Bane will have a stint as Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> My prediction, Bane will have a stint as Batman.


Huh. That would be interesting. But I don't see it.

----------


## Celgress

> My prediction, Bane will have a stint as Batman.


Do you mean like how Kraven the Hunter pretended to be Spider-Man during "Kraven's Last Hunt", or something more elaborate?

----------


## Armor of God

Either that or Superior Spider-Manesque run. Would prefer something inspired by KLH. But King has seeded this in his run. Bane doesn't want to break him but replace him and he'll succeed until status quo reverts as usual. Again I could be 100% wrong but that is where I think this run is heading.

----------


## bob.schoonover

> Either that or Superior Spider-Manesque run. Would prefer something inspired by KLH. But King has seeded this in his run. Bane doesn't want to break him but replace him and he'll succeed until status quo reverts as usual. Again I could be 100% wrong but that is where I think this run is heading.


If that is King's plan, using Hugo Strange in the first arc would make some sense - kind of a wink and a nod to what is to come.

----------


## Celgress

> Either that or Superior Spider-Manesque run...


A Superior Spider-Man type run but with Bane as a faux Batman rather than a body swap is an intriguing concept. I've always felt sad that Nightfall was cut short (reportedly by editorial decree) back in the day. The idea of a brutal Batman should be explored more deeply as it shows why not everyone can or should be the Bat. While Batman is important so is Bruce Wayne the man behind the mask.

----------


## millernumber1

I usually don't like to self-promote, but my review just posted for this issue: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/batman-204/

It's really long, which is why I'm not reposting here, but I may start copy and pasting sections of it here depending on how the conversation goes. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I wanted to say, because I am really personally disappointed, but I do think it's a very powerful issue with some significant structural flaws.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I usually don't like to self-promote, but my review just posted for this issue: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/batman-204/
> 
> It's really long, which is why I'm not reposting here, but I may start copy and pasting sections of it here depending on how the conversation goes. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I wanted to say, because I am really personally disappointed, but I do think it's a very powerful issue with some significant structural flaws.


Intersting review quite well thought out I don't know whether the scene where the Joker attacks the Riddler qualifies as recruiting him for Bane's plan. And Bane must have offered the Joker something really good to make join this. Thomas Wayne though is a puzzler since I can't understand how it happened. Did Bane talk to Eobard Thawne into doing it?

----------


## Chubistian

> A Superior Spider-Man type run but with Bane as a faux Batman rather than a body swap is an intriguing concept. I've always felt sad that Nightfall was cut short (reportedly by editorial decree) back in the day. The idea of a brutal Batman should be explored more deeply as it shows why not everyone can or should be the Bat. While Batman is important so is Bruce Wayne the man behind the mask.


I think I read in an interview with Dixon that Jean Paul was written in such a way that readers could see there was only one Batman, and definitely it wasn't Valley. The problem? They showed this so succesfully, that readers didn't wait long to express their dissatisfaction with the new Batman, so they had to end that period sooner than expected. I liked what they tried to do, some cool stories were written in that period, but Jean Paul as Batman felt very humdrum

Also, Bane as Batman is a good idea, but that can be pulled in a not so cool way, as it happened in Arkham War. Kraven as Spider-Man and Killmonger as Black Panther were great moments of villains playing hero

----------


## Talon1load

> I think there is a sort of problem on King's end, but the real blame definitely falls on the overhyping and spoiling, agreed.
> 
> What did you like best about the issue? For me, it was Bruce and Alfred, and the parallels, especially the final pages of Bruce and Selina, *spoilers:*
> jumping off the rooftops in opposite directions.
> *end of spoilers* My heart almost stopped, it was so beautiful and painful.


The scene with Bruce and Alfred was well done.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

On a smaller trivial note regarding the final page

*spoilers:*
How much time do you suppose has passed since we last saw Gotham Girl? You'd think more of her hair would've grown back by now, unless she's keeping it that way deliberately? :P
*end of spoilers*

And another theory I've seen passed around...
*spoilers:*
What if that isn't actually Thomas Wayne's Batman standing there? Presuming Psycho-Pirate still has knowledge of the worlds that once were, perhaps he told Bane about the Flashpoint Earth and Bane had a FP Batman suit made and stuck a random inmate in there to screw with Batman?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## bob.schoonover

> On a smaller trivial note regarding the final page
> 
> *spoilers:*
> How much time do you suppose has passed since we last saw Gotham Girl? You'd think more of her hair would've grown back by now, unless she's keeping it that way deliberately? :P
> *end of spoilers*


I thought the same thing.  War of Jokes and Riddles took one night to tell, one would assume Super Friends happened pretty quickly after Rules of Engagement, the Booster story took, effectively, no time all, and the Ivy story took 3 days (I think).  I suppose it's entirely possible there's been less than a month in comic time since Batman 24.




> And another theory I've seen passed around...
> *spoilers:*
> What if that isn't actually Thomas Wayne's Batman standing there? Presuming Psycho-Pirate still has knowledge of the worlds that once were, perhaps he told Bane about the Flashpoint Earth and Bane had a FP Batman suit made and stuck a random inmate in there to screw with Batman?
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
I'm not sure if it'd be weirder/more inexplicable if it is Flashpoint Thomas Wayne or if it's not.  And Psycho Pirate shouldn't know about Flashpoint, I don't think (if you're referring to him remembering the first Crisis) - that's not another Earth, it's a different timeline (which no longer exists).  If anyone is involved in bringing TW in, it'd have to be Skeets (I'll have to go read the last chapter of the Booster story again to see if it ended with two Skeets around).  
*end of spoilers*

----------


## BatmanJones

> I enjoyed Kings run. I am disappointed in the ending, IF it is how it seems. I really thought several of the story's were well written, some air had problems with. Overall, I can say it was like a great meal, with a very bad dessert.


We're on issue 50 out of 100. One can't be disappointed by the ending; it's 50 more issues away.

----------


## BatmanJones

> I'm really not a fan of the us of pinups, but I thought the letters themselves, the parallels, and the character interactions between Bruce and Alfred were really, really well done.


I loved the issue and was blown away by the final page reveal. I found the issue (especially "The Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar" bit) painful but I'm not the sort of reader that sees my favorite characters in pain and gets mad at a writer for causing it - insert tongue-sticking-out emoji for every poster that thinks that Brad Meltzer hated and then harmed Sue and Ralph Dibny - rather I honor writers that make me feel something and that's often the result of favored characters' pain.

In a two act play the line before intermission is called the "curtain line." That panel with Bane and Friends was mind-blowing and was about as good a curtain line as I can imagine getting at the end of the 50th issue of a 100 issue run. We're only halfway through and I'm already mourning the end of this series. I don't want to live in a world where King isn't writing Batman. Then again I'm very excited to see his take on the rest of the DCU.

----------


## kilderkin

I've not been this annoyed, irritated or in fact disgusted by a comic since marvels one more day

Not by what happened specifically 

But that it came down to a little chat 

I'll be dropping all batman stuff for at least the rest of kings run, Coz I ain't paying for 50 more issues of this kind of payoff

DC and he might say it's only half way, but it was promoted and put forward as a big deal

I'm totally gutted by how this was executed

----------


## charliehustle415

My Dudes has anyone commented on the fact that the human versions of Porky, Elmer Fudd, and Bugs is cannon in the DC Universe? That's the real reveal here!

----------


## Chubistian

> My Dudes has anyone commented on the fact that the human versions of Porky, Elmer Fudd, and Bugs is cannon in the DC Universe? That's the real reveal here!


I wouldn’t be surprised if they are the master minds behind Bane. That’s the ultimate event, Porky beats Batman and the Justice League!!! Batman #100, nuff said!!!!!

----------


## millernumber1

> I loved the issue and was blown away by the final page reveal. I found the issue (especially "The Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar" bit) painful but I'm not the sort of reader that sees my favorite characters in pain and gets mad at a writer for causing it - insert tongue-sticking-out emoji for every poster that thinks that Brad Meltzer hated and then harmed Sue and Ralph Dibny - rather I honor writers that make me feel something and that's often the result of favored characters' pain.
> 
> In a two act play the line before intermission is called the "curtain line." That panel with Bane and Friends was mind-blowing and was about as good a curtain line as I can imagine getting at the end of the 50th issue of a 100 issue run. We're only halfway through and I'm already mourning the end of this series. I don't want to live in a world where King isn't writing Batman. Then again I'm very excited to see his take on the rest of the DCU.


I agree. This is a midpoint climax, not an end.

That being said, I don't think Meltzer hated the Dibneys, but editorial certainly did. (Grumble grumble torturing Steph to death was UNNECESSARY grumble grumble 2005 editorial grumble grumble).




> My Dudes has anyone commented on the fact that the human versions of Porky, Elmer Fudd, and Bugs is cannon in the DC Universe? That's the real reveal here!


They've been canon since the Annual, friend.  :Smile:

----------


## themasething

I'll be honest, I've enjoyed King's run on Batman A LOT. This build up to the wedding with them visiting Talia and The Joker going crazy about not having an invite to the wedding... Amazing. Issue #49 is a great cap off issue between two characters who think they know Batman best. Again, some of the best writing in the modern era. However... I just can't continue with a writer who didn't have the balls to follow through with something that has been built up to be nothing more than a marketing stunt that has pissed off fans to this extent. King could do his best work in the next 50 issues, but I just can't bring myself to read them.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'll be honest, I've enjoyed King's run on Batman A LOT. This build up to the wedding with them visiting Talia and The Joker going crazy about not having an invite to the wedding... Amazing. Issue #49 is a great cap off issue between two characters who think they know Batman best. Again, some of the best writing in the modern era. However... I just can't continue with a writer who didn't have the balls to follow through with something that has been built up to be nothing more than a marketing stunt that has pissed off fans to this extent. King could do his best work in the next 50 issues, but I just can't bring myself to read them.


Understandable, though I hope you'll keep checking this thread to see if you want to come back in a few months.  :Smile:

----------


## charliehustle415

> I agree. This is a midpoint climax, not an end.
> 
> That being said, I don't think Meltzer hated the Dibneys, but editorial certainly did. (Grumble grumble torturing Steph to death was UNNECESSARY grumble grumble 2005 editorial grumble grumble).
> 
> 
> 
> They've been canon since the Annual, friend.


Just went back and spotted it! Mind blown  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

A very helpful fan compiled a list of other times Batman has dealt with a broken engagement. Now, I feel like I've been pretty darn fair to this issue and King so far, but I'm properly irritated with the claim that "we've never seen this before": https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/..._never_before/

----------


## themasething

> A very helpful fan compiled a list of other times Batman has dealt with a broken engagement. Now, I feel like I've been pretty darn fair to this issue and King so far, but I'm properly irritated with the claim that "we've never seen this before": https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/..._never_before/


King's claim of "Doing things you've never seen before" was always called out as bullshit. King, along with a lot of other publishers and writers, believe that readers have the memory of a goldfish; but thanks to things like hardcore fans and Google, we can call them out on the bullshit a lot easier and quicker.




> Understandable, though I hope you'll keep checking this thread to see if you want to come back in a few months.


I may be back. I'll pull the odd issue off the shelf and flick through it from time to time, but it'll take some pretty damn good apology story to make up for this bad marketing stunt bullshit.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> A very helpful fan compiled a list of other times Batman has dealt with a broken engagement. Now, I feel like I've been pretty darn fair to this issue and King so far, but I'm properly irritated with the claim that "we've never seen this before": https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/..._never_before/


No it's not new but what would have been new was a marriage that came true I really don't understand what these people are thinking.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I can't understand all this amount of criticism, it seems to me a mass hysterical reaction cause people didn't have what they wanted.
I like this run more and more, the plot thickens and i like the fact that behind it all there is Bane.
Bane, finally used as a strategist and not as a mere brute force after so many years.
We are only halfway through the run so many things will have to be explained and developed. I really don't understand these complaints, everything is possible even the wedding.
I'm hooked as always with Tom King writing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I can't understand all this amount of criticism, it seems to me a mass hysterical reaction cause people didn't have what they wanted.
> I like this run more and more, the plot thickens and i like the fact that behind it all there is Bane.
> Bane, finally used as a strategist and not as a mere brute force after so many years.
> We are only halfway through the run so many things will have to be explained and developed. I really don't understand these complaints, everything is possible even the wedding.
> I'm hooked as always with Tom King writing.


Marriage is what DC was marketing. So people preordered based on that. People also followed the run because they want to see the marriage happen since the story's been building up to that. 
Then they spoil the marriage is not gonna happen. People are canceling their orders, even though the stores already paid for it. 
This is not just hysteria. People are actually losing money while DC gain a lot because of their false marketing. 
Now after all have been revealed, they're asking to buy another 50 issues so maybe the marriage will be real. Of course, people are angry. Why would they buy another 50 issues for a possibility if DC has proven they outright lie to their customer?

To me personally, it's a sign of how low DC can go for profit, on top of all my problem with them, both in story and out of it.

----------


## oasis1313

> My prediction, Bane will have a stint as Batman.


Interesting.  If the people of Gotham think Batman is the buffest dude around, just wait'll they see the hulking BatBane.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Marriage is what DC was marketing. So people preordered based on that. People also followed the run because they want to see the marriage happen since the story's been building up to that. 
> Then they spoil the marriage is not gonna happen. People are canceling their orders, even though the stores already paid for it. 
> This is not just hysteria. People are actually losing money while DC gain a lot because of their false marketing. 
> Now after all have been revealed, they're asking to buy another 50 issues so maybe the marriage will be real. Of course, people are angry. Why would they buy another 50 issues for a possibility if DC has proven they outright lie to their customer?
> 
> To me personally, it's a sign of how low DC can go for profit, on top of all my problem with them, both in story and out of it.


I'm sorry, but i still think it's hysteria cause you haven't what you wanted.
Loosing money? reading a good comic it's never a loss of money.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Bendis will take over at some point anyways. (snarky remark)

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm sorry, but i still think it's hysteria cause you haven't what you wanted.
> Loosing money? reading a good comic it's never a loss of money.


Did you skip the part about the stores?

Comics are entertainment, and people want different things. If the reason people are interested is because of the marriage then it's not weird that they refuse to buy it.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Did you skip the part about the stores?
> 
> Comics are entertainment, and people want different things. If the reason people are interested is because of the marriage then it's not weird that they refuse to buy it.


It was marketing? Yes
was there marriage? No
has it been a number of quality with so many great artists and with a well-written story that contains everything that has happened in the past and that prepares the bases for the sequel? Yes

All i care is reading good comic, and if DC uses marketing to have new customers I don't find anything new or unusual.
The issue is quality and this is the only thing that matters. If you complain is because the story did not go as you wanted, but then you know how many complaints I have to do?

----------


## Restingvoice

> It was marketing? Yes
> was there marriage? No
> has it been a number of quality with so many great artists and with a well-written story that contains everything that has happened in the past and that prepares the bases for the sequel? Yes
> 
> All i care is reading good comic, and if DC uses marketing to have new customers I don't find anything new or unusual.
> The issue is quality and this is the only thing that matters. If you complain is because the story did not go as you wanted, but then you know how many complaints I have to do?


Exactly. You. But what you asked isn't about you, it's about other people. So I'm answering what those other people's problem with it. You decided to stay with DC despite your complaint, because that's your decision. They don't. That's their decision.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Exactly. You. But what you asked isn't about you, it's about other people. So I'm answering what those other people's problem with it. You decided to stay with DC despite your complaint, they don't. That's their decision.


So other people prefer to read a marriage story without quality rather than a nice comic book written and drawn well?

I think that when you have in your hands a quality thing you can't be upset.
Maybe the marriage will be at the end or maybe not, that really doesn't matter!

DC has exploited marriage as a marketing strategy to sell, of course! I don't find anything new in such a strategy, any company does it, and I don't find anything so despicable if in any case what sold you is a quality product.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So other people prefer to read a marriage story without quality rather than a nice comic book written and drawn well?
> 
> I think that when you have in your hands a quality thing you can't be upset.
> Maybe the marriage will be at the end or maybe not, that really doesn't matter!
> 
> DC has exploited marriage as a marketing strategy to sell, of course! I don't find anything new in such a strategy, any company does it, and I don't find anything so despicable if in any case what sold you is a quality product.


Probably. I know some people follow their favorite character no matter the story is good or bad, and I know others who only tolerate other story elements they dislike because they want to see their favorite characters get together.

...Or they're lapsed reader who is interested to come back because Batman gets married, because that means a change in the status quo... or they're a loyal follower of the series who, while they acknowledge the story's good, won't stand for DC's business ethics... or they're recent follower of DC, so they don't know that DC or Marvel like to do this, and this is their first experience being tricked by marketing so they decided why stick around... especially if they have other entertainment, like movies, tvs, novels to follow.

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## failo.legendkiller

> Probably. I know some people follow their favorite character no matter the story is good or bad, and I know others who only tolerate other story elements they dislike because they want to see their favorite characters get together.
> 
> ...Or they're lapsed reader who is interested to come back because Batman gets married, because that means a change in the status quo... or they're a loyal follower of the series who, while they acknowledge the story's good, won't stand for DC's business ethics... or they're recent follower of DC, so they don't know that DC or Marvel like to do this, and this is their first experience being tricked by marketing so they decided why stick around... especially if they have other entertainment, like movies, tvs, novels to follow.


...or they are occasional readers attracted by the subject of marriage that remain intrigued by the course of events and who will continue to buy the book.

Anyway, I am surprised by the complaints of regular readers, and it is to those I referred to in my first post.
Precisely those who should be more savvy and who know how the comic book market works and who should still recognize when a product is quality or not.

----------


## Restingvoice

> ...or they are occasional readers attracted by the subject of marriage that remain intrigued by the course of events and who will continue to buy the book.
> 
> Anyway, I am surprised by the complaints of regular readers, and it is to those I referred to in my first post.
> Precisely those who should be more savvy and who know how the comic book market works and who should still recognize when a product is quality or not.


I know there's one person in this community whose first Batman book in a long time is this issue, and they find it really good and want to continue, yes. 

Ah okay, that's fair. Then let's wait for their answers.

----------


## kjn

> So other people prefer to read a marriage story without quality rather than a nice comic book written and drawn well?
> 
> I think that when you have in your hands a quality thing you can't be upset.
> Maybe the marriage will be at the end or maybe not, that really doesn't matter!
> 
> DC has exploited marriage as a marketing strategy to sell, of course! I don't find anything new in such a strategy, any company does it, and I don't find anything so despicable if in any case what sold you is a quality product.


You're putting up a false dichotomy here, since quality and topic are orthogonal: you can have good and bad marriage stories in comics, just as you can have good and bad comic stories on any other subject.

Rather, I think the problem lies in how the story was marketed, and not only by DC but also by Tom King. King now appears to have had this story set up for a 100-issue arc, with this as a midpoint climax and pushing the characters to a low point, from which Batman and friends would recover and work their way up from. But neither King nor DC treated it as such. The story in #50 also seems to be more about the reveal to the reader rather than a change in Batman (though the relation between Batman and Catwoman obviously changed).

This is complicated by that a marriage is one of the classic ways to finalise a story. A classic romance story can end at one of three points: a kiss, a marriage, or the birth of a child. This means that no matter what DC or Tom King does, they are working in a huge sea of expectations of storytelling directions and expectations, and neither of them did little to moderate those expectations. Instead, they fanned them with their variant covers and special buildup issues.

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## failo.legendkiller

> You're putting up a false dichotomy here, since quality and topic are orthogonal: you can have good and bad marriage stories in comics, just as you can have good and bad comic stories on any other subject.


I wanted to say that people would also accept a poor quality story as long as the marriage was celebrated.




> Rather, I think the problem lies in how the story was marketed, and not only by DC but also by Tom King. King now appears to have had this story set up for a 100-issue arc, with this as a midpoint climax and pushing the characters to a low point, from which Batman and friends would recover and work their way up from. But neither King nor DC treated it as such. The story in #50 also seems to be more about the reveal to the reader rather than a change in Batman (though the relation between Batman and Catwoman obviously changed).
> 
> This is complicated by that a marriage is one of the classic ways to finalise a story. A classic romance story can end at one of three points: a kiss, a marriage, or the birth of a child. This means that no matter what DC or Tom King does, they are working in a huge sea of expectations of storytelling directions and expectations, and neither of them did little to moderate those expectations. Instead, they fanned them with their variant covers and special buildup issues.


They've pushed the wedding, it's obvious for marketing reasons. Was it an honest choice towards the fans? Probably not, but that's how world goes on, we can't be surprised.
Anyway we had no marriage, but the story is not concluded at all.

----------


## Aahz

> So other people prefer to read a marriage story without quality rather than a nice comic book written and drawn well?


Drawn surely, but written is up to debate imo.

----------


## GreatKungLao

> So other people prefer to read a marriage story without quality rather than a nice comic book written and drawn well?
> 
> I think that when you have in your hands a quality thing you can't be upset.
> Maybe the marriage will be at the end or maybe not, that really doesn't matter!
> 
> DC has exploited marriage as a marketing strategy to sell, of course! I don't find anything new in such a strategy, any company does it, and I don't find anything so despicable if in any case what sold you is a quality product.


I've being reading regular Batman for a enough long time to desire for drastic change of pace and marriage to Catwoman could've been that turning point. We have seen them solo enough already. Having them as a canon couple in main continuity sounded hella exciting. I want high quality married BatCat stories over high quality regular Batman stories. Let the character evolve already, it's been 80 freaking years.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I've being reading regular Batman for a enough long time to desire for drastic change of pace and marriage to Catwoman could've been that turning point. We have seen them solo enough already. Having them as a canon couple in main continuity sounded hella exciting. I want high quality married BatCat stories over high quality regular Batman stories. Let the character evolve already, it's been 80 freaking years.


Nothing of what happened in issue 50 denies that this could happen. They have been cheated, the plot goes on.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Batman and Cat woman were cheated out of a Wedding but so were fans and retailers. EVERYONE at DC knew what the story was and what it entailed as did EVERYONE in DC's PR department. Yet DC and their PR people chose to act as if the wedding was a done deal AT issue #50 and that all that remained was the "I do". There is no other possible way to read all the advertising at all because ALL of it was geared toward the certainty that the wedding was happening. There was not a shadow of a doubt in any of it because if there had been a lot of people wouldn't be livid about the situation. Sorry but DC and everyone involved here aren't getting a free pass on this just because the story is good or this latest twist may lead to their eventual marriage down the line. They made a huge mistake here.

----------


## kilderkin

> Batman and Cat woman were cheated out of a Wedding but so were fans and retailers. EVERYONE at DC knew what the story was and what it entailed as did EVERYONE in DC's PR department. Yet DC and their PR people chose to act as if the wedding was a done deal AT issue #50 and that all that remained was the "I do". There is no other possible way to read all the advertising at all because ALL of it was geared toward the certainty that the wedding was happening. There was not a shadow of a doubt in any of it because if there had been a lot of people wouldn't be livid about the situation. Sorry but DC and everyone involved here aren't getting a free pass on this just because the story is good or this latest twist may lead to their eventual marriage down the line. They made a huge mistake here.


I agree entirely 

they played it as a done deal from all the hype once it got to 50

Sure I fell for it

It won't happen again with kings batman at least

The relationship no longer holds any charm given the unfeasible supposed villain meta plan and the ease with which selina turned

Imo garbage

----------


## Mataza

Would have been a shitty wedding. The moment all preparations were off i knew it couldnt possibly happen, the wedding of Batman and Catwoman cant be a private thing. The real wedding will be BIG, but getting there will be hard, and feel earned.
It will also probably not even be a Batbook, but a 100 page giant book. I wouldnt even be surprised if that book formed or reignited other relationships.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree entirely 
> 
> they played it as a done deal from all the hype once it got to 50
> 
> Sure I fell for it
> 
> It won't happen again with kings batman at least
> 
> The relationship no longer holds any charm given the unfeasible supposed villain meta plan and the ease with which selina turned
> ...


I don't see how the villain plan makes Batman and Catwoman's love less charming? I left the book hoping for more, wanting them to fight.

----------


## Pohzee

With more time to think about the last page reveal, I am now very curious as to how far back Bane has been orchestrating this whole thing. With both Holly and and Gotham Girl involved, the implication seems to me that Bane could be behind the not only the opening arc of the run with I Am Gotham, but also perhaps even before the events of the run with Holly and the Dogs of War.

I'm not sure that I quite like that idea. These kind of overreaching connections make the story feel a bit smaller in some ways. 

I would greatly prefer for this not to be the case. I'd prefer Bane's involvement to begin after and as a result of I Am Suicide. One of the more interesting aspects of I Am Suicide and I Am Bane was that his actions seemed justified. One could easily understand his motivations and could see how Batman could be the villain of Bane's story by breaking into Santa Prisca, stealing the Psycho Pirate, and hooking him back up on Venom. If somehow Bane was behind the events of I Am Gotham and I Am Suicide, then it becomes less interesting to me. Bane's motivations no longer become as understandable and instead seem more like another moustache twirling attempt to "Break the Bat."

Also, King is gonna have to give me a good sell on Skeets and Flashpoint Batman. It's a little out there for me.

----------


## millernumber1

> With more time to think about the last page reveal, I am now very curious as to how far back Bane has been orchestrating this whole thing. With both Holly and and Gotham Girl involved, the implication seems to me that Bane could be behind the not only the opening arc of the run with I Am Gotham, but also perhaps even before the events of the run with Holly and the Dogs of War.
> 
> I'm not sure that I quite like that idea. These kind of overreaching connections make the story feel a bit smaller in some ways. 
> 
> I would greatly prefer for this not to be the case. I'd prefer Bane's involvement to begin after and as a result of I Am Suicide. One of the more interesting aspects of I Am Suicide and I Am Bane was that his actions seemed justified. One could easily understand his motivations and could see how Batman could be the villain of Bane's story by breaking into Santa Prisca, stealing the Psycho Pirate, and hooking him back up on Venom. If somehow Bane was behind the events of I Am Gotham and I Am Suicide, then it becomes less interesting to me. Bane's motivations no longer become as understandable and instead seem more like another moustache twirling attempt to "Break the Bat."
> 
> Also, King is gonna have to give me a good sell on Skeets and Flashpoint Batman. It's a little out there for me.


I actually like the idea that Bane orchestrated the terrorist attack and Holly's revenge, because Batman feels "off" to me in the first arc, and that goes a long way to explaining it for me.

I do hope that it doesn't go back to War of Jokes and Riddles, though. That's too far.

----------


## charliehustle415

> because his sales were killing the title


Dude come on, a drunk monkey could write Batman and it would a top seller for months on end.

Batman and a lack of sales ain’t possible

----------


## lilyrose

> I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!
> 
> 
> On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!


I have a feeling this is all going to end feeling very unfinished. And with Bat/Cat not coming out until March, I don't know what impact it will have. Maybe if it really did lead into that book starting in January it could have kept some momentum or at least continuation of this story, but it looks to me like the first couple months of Tynion's run is going to be boring filler issues.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

I don't like that Alfred is gone, but I do like how it was handled as far as Bruce's reaction.  Sometimes I feel Janin's art feels too stiff, but he nailed it beautifully.  It was interesting to see just how different the two father figures in Bruce's life were.  Alfred the supporting father and Thomas the controlling father.  (Thomas takes controlling to a whole new level.)  I look forward to the next issue to finally learn how and why Thomas is here.  He is a sick person trying to get Bruce to fit the mold about how his life should be.

----------


## gregpersons

> I see where you're going with this - if Dick hadn't been "killed" during Forever Evil, Snyder would have had his Thomas Wayne shoot Dick in the head, too (it's true that Crimemaster doesn't fit the portly part, but the rest holds).


We could make the argument that Thomas Jr. leads to Dick getting "shot" in the head in Snyder's run  when Bruce knocks Dick's tooth out with the suckerpunch at the end of Court of Owls.

It's pretty wild that the last three runs on "Batman" have all involved a play on "Thomas Wayne* is back and he's bad, baby!"

----------


## gregpersons

> I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!
> 
> On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!


The logistical questions in City Of Bane seem to be inspired by Dark Knight Rises.

"Wait, the city was locked down and any heroes are barred from entry... how in the world did they get in?" "Don't worry about it!"

----------


## Chubistian

Just the other day I was thinking how Morrison, Snyder and King had a family member as a main villain in the figure of Dr Hurt, Lincoln March and Thomas Wayne (Flashpoint) respectively, and now that I think about it, and if we take Dr Hurt's and March's real names, the three are named Thomas Wayne. The three writers also seem to hold a "grudge" against Alfred

I liked this issue because I think it was necessary to have some pages dedicated to acknowledge Alfred's death and to deal with it in a profound way so it doesn't feel as something out of nowhere or mere shock value. This comicbook served that purpose perfectly. Of course, 20 pages to just do that may see as an exageration in a bi-weekly schedule (and it would feel even more decompressed in a monthly basis), but in tradepaperback or by reading the whole arc once it's done, I think it will work better (as most of King's run does)

I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonment in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room

I have loved City of Bane thus far. The answers, just like in The Fall and the Fallen came in abruptly in some parts, but the good has surpassed the bad by a very fair margin

----------


## gregpersons

> Just the other day I was thinking how Morrison, Snyder and King had a family member as a main villain in the figure of Dr Hurt, Lincoln March and Thomas Wayne (Flashpoint) respectively, and now that I think about it, and if we take Dr Hurt's and March's real names, the three are named Thomas Wayne. The three writers also seem to hold a "grudge" against Alfred
> 
> I liked this issue because I think it was necesarry to have some pages dedicated to acknowledge Alfred's death and to deal with it in a profound way so it doesn't feel as something out of nowhere or mere shock value. This comicbook served that purpose perfectly. Of course, 20 pages to just that may see as an exageration in a bi-weekly schedule (and it would feel even more decompressed in a monthly basis), but in tradepaperback or by reading the whole arc once it's done, I think it will work better (as most of King's run does)
> 
> I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonement in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room
> 
> I have loved City of Bane thus far. The answers, just like in The Fall and the Fallen came in abruptly in some parts, but the good has surpased the bad by a very fair margin


Plot twist: The Three Thomases are in fact The Three Jokers. Morrison/Snyder/King all used their Thomas figure to get Bruce to "doubt" his grasp on reality. 

The parallel to the Calendar Man speech also highlighted to me how similar the overall theme of King's run is to Morrison's, and Snyder's for that matter — which is "Batman is everlasting, the fight goes on forever, what's old is new again" (and that's admittedly a common theme for more writers than just these three but I think this is due in part to the fact that each writer also began their run with a relatively clean slate of continuity and so aimed for a more ambitious and character defining message)

----------


## Chubistian

> Plot twist: The Three Thomases are in fact The Three Jokers.


And Alfred is Dr Manhattan in disguise. Chop as many hands as you want or break his neck with all your strenght, he will always come back and he will never stop

----------


## bob.schoonover

So to sum up the discussion, we should assume in Tynion's run, he will introduce a Thomas Wayne (maybe this one will be from the future) who will make Bruce doubt his mission. Thomas will endanger the lives of the whole Bat-family, likely with an unattractive ally, possibly putting Dick in mortal danger, but in the end, Batman will prove himself to be everlasting and capable of overcoming the newest threat. However, there will be a point in the story when the supposed mastermind is thwarted not by Batman but by another, greater villain (Joker over Hurt, Owlman over Cluemaster, Thomas over Bane).

----------


## Chubistian

> So to sum up the discussion, we should assume in Tynion's run, he will introduce a Thomas Wayne (maybe this one will be from the future) who will make Bruce doubt his mission. Thomas will endanger the lives of the whole Bat-family, likely with an unattractive ally, possibly putting Dick in mortal danger, but in the end, Batman will prove himself to be everlasting and capable of overcoming the newest threat. However, there will be a point in the story when the supposed mastermind is thwarted not by Batman but by another, greater villain (Joker over Hurt, Owlman over Cluemaster, Thomas over Bane).


And Alfred will be back only to be held hostage or lose a limb or (why not) both

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Maybe King can resurrect Alfred in the pages of Bat/Cat as RoboButler, basically RoboCop except he's a butler instead of a cop.

----------


## gregpersons

> So to sum up the discussion, we should assume in Tynion's run, he will introduce a Thomas Wayne (maybe this one will be from the future) who will make Bruce doubt his mission. Thomas will endanger the lives of the whole Bat-family, likely with an unattractive ally, possibly putting Dick in mortal danger, but in the end, Batman will prove himself to be everlasting and capable of overcoming the newest threat. However, there will be a point in the story when the supposed mastermind is thwarted not by Batman but by another, greater villain (Joker over Hurt, Owlman over Cluemaster, Thomas over Bane).


Hahaha yes that's clearly the course! 

The Thomas Wayne resurgence is interesting. Besides these three runs, there's also the Joker movie, the Telltale games, and Batman Damned. I think this parallel thinking among the writers is reflective of the era, as our view of the 1% has darkened, there's an instinct to address Bruce's blue-blood lineage in a way that frames it as something monstrous that he must overcome.

And I think, though I have really enjoyed King's run overall with the Bat-Cat focus, I am least compelled by the Thomas storyline — although, the next issue could change that with some great reveal of his deeper motivations. I'm still in a "wait and see" with how City Of Bane concludes in the next two issues.

Here's a ranking of my favorite versions of "Thomas Wayne is bad"

1. Telltale — The simplest approach is the most effective. Bruce's actual father was a villain, part of the old Gotham mafia and directly hurt people by wrongfully diagnosing political opponents to be put in in Arkham Asylum. Bruce's war on crime matures from avenging his loss of family, to atoning for the losses his family helped to create. It adds a richer, deeper, more interesting wrinkle to everything.

2. Morrison — This gets points for being first, and for dangling the suggestion that Dr. Hurt might actually be Thomas, or might be The Devil himself impersonating Thomas, which was an exciting new type of threat at the time. In the end, the ultimate reveal that Dr. Hurt was Bruce's indirect ancestor from the 1800s who also happened to be named Thomas Wayne who was kept alive by demonic rituals and Darkseid's Hyper-Adapter was kind of convoluted and ridiculous, but the idea of "an enemy who knows you better than you know yourself, lurking in the shadows from the beginning" was most exciting to me the first time.

3. Joker film — Thomas is a rich asshole running for mayor is good. Tying him to the Joker's origin and vice-versa is unnecessary and annoying. 

4. Snyder — It's hard for me to see The Court of Owls and Lincoln March as anything more than second-draft rewrites of Black Glove and Dr. Hurt... the concept is improved and somewhat streamlined, but hurt contextually by coming right after we _just_ did this storyline!

5. King — I think the incorporation of Flashpoint Batman and then making him integral to the larger run is an example of the writer's reach exceeding their grasp. It still seems, 25+ issues later, like the overall run would've been better had Thomas's plot points been just given to Bane instead.

----------


## TheJudge95

> I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonment in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room


Nice catch for the Calendar Man callback




> I didn't hate this issue by any means, but it's definitely, for me, the issue which most exemplifies the seams in whatever the heck happened to King's run (moving to Bat/Cat, Tony Daniels needing lead time to draw . . . parts of three issues).  Bruce said he sent Damian in because Alfred wasn't there to be a hostage, then Alfred stayed to be the hostage, too?  Bruce and Thomas have recovered from the beatings in issue 81 and 82 already.  Gotham Girl has been neutralized, but the JLA doesn't know?


I agree with what you're saying and a lot of the plot feels like whiplash, on top of Bane's and Batman's convoluted plans and the Bane fake-out. But I think Alfred was supposed to escape (with Clayface or Ventriloquist) but for some reason was unable to, and sent the signal anyway for Damian to move in and sacrificed himself so that the plan could work.

----------


## BatmanJones

Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.

When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.

I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end. 

Those characters we learned were working with Bane were so surprising I felt sure that somewhere in the next 50 issues (now 35) we'd get to see what led to all of those characters working with Bane. I understand now that the issue in which Thomas Wayne told Bane what his plan had been and asked how he could help (essentially a recap of the story to that point) is pretty much all we're going to get with regard to Bane somehow convincing Joker, Riddler, Holly Robinson, Thomas Wayne, Ventriloquist, Skeets(!), and others joining his cause. And I have to say that's a major bummer to me.

This is not at all to say I haven't enjoyed what we have gotten because I have. Still, it seems King is a lot better at writing cliffhangers (Bane breaks Batman's back, Tim gets impaled, Batman gets shot twice in the gut, and most _especially_ that last panel of the wedding issue) than resolving them. Instead, even to an absolute lover of this run, it's clear now that the cliffhangers that have been so shocking are never going to be resolved. Before Knightmares we got one of the most thrilling cliffhangers in the entire run with Thomas Wayne invading the Batcave to attack Alfred and Bruce. To wait through so many dream sequences (all wonderful by the way), waiting for the story to pick back up where it left off, what felt like one of the most exciting scenes just never happened. Why so many cliffhangers with so few resolutions?

I hate to post this on the day that such an emotionally rewarding issue came out but, being we're finally on the verge of the end, I've finally given up on the final 35 issues providing a satisfying solution to the many cliffhangers, some of which the story just sort of ignores ever having happened.

Every week when I pick up my new comics I talk with a LCS worker that's frustrated by the run. Every week since not too long after #50 he's exasperatedly said, "still no explanations." And every week I've said, "King's playing a long game. Just wait. All will be explained and it's gonna be great." It's a jovial exchange every week but after Dec. 18 I'm going to have to admit to him that I'd been wrong. I don't mind being wrong but I do mind being disappointed.

King had so many issues to give us satisfying explanations but in City of Bane he's using about 9 issues to give us about 3 issues worth of story. And the ultimate arc of the run, misleadingly titled "City of Bane" featured Bane only in small cameos. This feels like an awfully bad time to indulge in ultimate decompression. I don't typically mind decompression at all as long as the story is satisfying in the end. But, as with Heroes in Crisis (one of the poorer attempts to stick the landing in memory), I don't think there's any way the last two issues will allow a reader to cash the check King wrote back at the end of #50.

Nothing is going to stop this run from having been my favorite run on my lifelong favorite title, but I'm already a little disappointed in a failure to provide a satisfying resolution to so many long-held questions. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder though if other lovers of this run harbor similar concerns or disappointments.

----------


## BatmanJones

None of the above is to say I didn't enjoy Batman #83. I think it's one of the best issues of Batman of all time.

----------


## gregpersons

> Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.
> 
> When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.
> 
> I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end. 
> 
> Those characters we learned were working with Bane were so surprising I felt sure that somewhere in the next 50 issues (now 35) we'd get to see what led to all of those characters working with Bane. I understand now that the issue in which Thomas Wayne told Bane what his plan had been and asked how he could help (essentially a recap of the story to that point) is pretty much all we're going to get with regard to Bane somehow convincing Joker, Riddler, Holly Robinson, Thomas Wayne, Ventriloquist, Skeets(!), and others joining his cause. And I have to say that's a major bummer to me.
> 
> This is not at all to say I haven't enjoyed what we have gotten because I have. Still, it seems King is a lot better at writing cliffhangers (Bane breaks Batman's back, Tim gets impaled, Batman gets shot twice in the gut, and most _especially_ that last panel of the wedding issue) than resolving them. Instead, even to an absolute lover of this run, it's clear now that the cliffhangers that have been so shocking are never going to be resolved. Before Knightmares we got one of the most thrilling cliffhangers in the entire run with Thomas Wayne invading the Batcave to attack Alfred and Bruce. To wait through so many dream sequences (all wonderful by the way), waiting for the story to pick back up where it left off, what felt like one of the most exciting scenes just never happened. Why so many cliffhangers with so few resolutions?
> ...


I feel largely the same. Somewhere around Knightmares, waiting to see the reveal of Bane and Thomas at the end of the Tyrant Wing, I went back to re-read Knightfall and Vengeance of Bane 1 & 2, and Bane of the Demon (thanks DCU app)... basically all of the Chuck Dixon version of Bane. It'd still wild how much story is packed into Knightfall in so few issues, how epic it feels across 25 or so issues, and how much clearer Bane is — even though, especially in Knightfall, his motivations aren't _that_ much stronger than they are in King's run. Like, Knightfall Bane is more nuanced than Doomsday but not by much. 

All that is to say, I _loved_ the version of Bane we see in the early part of King's run, especially I Am Suicide, and it felt like such a smart evolution for the character. I just wish we'd have gotten more from him. An issue of Bane going around and recruiting the people from #50 — seeing it from Bane's perspective, instead of learning about it secondhand from Thomas to Bane, or the Lex(?) bot in COB part one — would have really helped. 

It needs a "Letter from Bane" style issue, lol... something where we get a better understanding of what the hell this person wants, and why they're doing this incredibly elaborate endeavor. It's not impossible that won't come in the next issue, even though it seems like it'll need to be from Thomas's POV.

Edit: I guess that issue in the overall run would be the one from the "I Am Bane" conclusion, where we see the upbringings of Bruce and Bane mirroring each other. We saw in "War of Jokes and Riddles" that King isn't that interested in showing the logistics of supervillain team-ups and is fine to just hand-wave it and let you fill in the pieces, and I guess that's just how it is with "City of Bane" — the frustration being that both of those Gotham status quos are so unusual, that it feels incomplete without more context. The amount of plot-holes I have to be willing to ignore or fill in myself definitely makes me more forgiving of "TDK Rises".... the one thing I guess we know for sure about Bane is he wants to rule Gotham and he wants to break Batman's back. Why? Because life is a prison, and he is Bane, that's it.

I feel like King is Campbell, the QB from the Gotham Knights, and we're rooting for a late 4th quarter comeback but you can just smell a fumble coming. We'll see! I don't know. Based on the solitics, I'm not optimistic that Catwoman is sticking around as a life partner to Batman after the end of the run, but again who knows. 

Regardless of how City of Bane ends up, I am still very optimistic about Bat/Cat knocking it out of the park.

----------


## TheJudge95

I agree with you BatmanJones but I always had the sense that Bane was going to be the fall guy. Of course, for marketing reasons, Tom King couldn't have come out and spoiled the twist that Thomas Wayne is the big bad, and Bane is a bigger sell than Flashpoint Batman, hence "City of *Bane*". I gave up on there being a thorough explanation of Bane's conspiracy after the issue you're referring to (#72). It was more of a recap of the run up to that point and less an explanation of Bane's seemingly clairvoyant manipulation of events. I chalked it up to a comic-booky tribute to Bane's vaunted brains, but then in #81 and #82 Batman outmaneuvered Bane so thoroughly that it made Bane's schemes lesser in hindsight. Like, Batman replacing Joker with Clayface - when did he figure out that Joker was part of Bane's cabal? Was he really unstable when he punched Tim or was he always in control and using some weird code? I think the cliffhanger of #50 was an attempt to tie the run together in a way that it wasn't meant to be tied together and King is taking the easy explanation of "they're all brainwashed" (though it does make sense). It would have made more sense if only Bane, Flashpoint Batman, Ventriloquist, Gotham Girl, Psycho Pirate, and Skeets were there, but he included Joker and Riddler too just to tie in War of Jokes and Riddles even though Riddler doesn't really factor into the overall plan (Joker manipulated Catwoman in The Best Man). Overall, I'm fine with the lack of explanations, though it does make my previous theory-crafting futile in retrospect, because the real meat of the story is Batman vs. Thomas Wayne and Bane was (unfortunately) used as a plot device to get there.

----------


## millernumber1

Wow, awesome day of conversation today! To match an awesome issue!




> I didn't hate this issue by any means, but it's definitely, for me, the issue which most exemplifies the seams in whatever the heck happened to King's run (moving to Bat/Cat, Tony Daniels needing lead time to draw . . . parts of three issues).  Bruce said he sent Damian in because Alfred wasn't there to be a hostage, then Alfred stayed to be the hostage, too?  Bruce and Thomas have recovered from the beatings in issue 81 and 82 already.  Gotham Girl has been neutralized, but the JLA doesn't know?  
> 
> Alfred's message to Bruce was lovely, and it tied into the opening arc in a way I didn't see coming.  Given that everyone else is under Psycho Pirate's thrall, we'll get the Thomas/Bruce re-match we've all been expecting, and hopefully some answers about his existence (however, given that GG was supposed to have been cured by Pirate during I Am Bane, it'll be interesting to see how the bat-family all becomes un-thralled).


This issue was really powerful to me. I'm normally REALLY against Alfred calling Bruce "son" - see my comments about Batman #49 by Snyder or All Star Batman: The First Ally - but this felt like it was built up to, rather than lazily slipped in, and it profoundly moved me.




> I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!
> 
> On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!


I think we need a whole miniseries about Stephanie Brown infiltrating the city, though  :Wink: 




> Facts in evidence?


I advocate for ignoring the trolls.




> I don't like that Alfred is gone, but I do like how it was handled as far as Bruce's reaction.  Sometimes I feel Janin's art feels too stiff, but he nailed it beautifully.  It was interesting to see just how different the two father figures in Bruce's life were.  Alfred the supporting father and Thomas the controlling father.  (Thomas takes controlling to a whole new level.)  I look forward to the next issue to finally learn how and why Thomas is here.  He is a sick person trying to get Bruce to fit the mold about how his life should be.


The whole issue was a really powerful look at fathers and sons in Batman's life, and what it means to be a father.




> Just the other day I was thinking how Morrison, Snyder and King had a family member as a main villain in the figure of Dr Hurt, Lincoln March and Thomas Wayne (Flashpoint) respectively, and now that I think about it, and if we take Dr Hurt's and March's real names, the three are named Thomas Wayne. The three writers also seem to hold a "grudge" against Alfred
> 
> I liked this issue because I think it was necessary to have some pages dedicated to acknowledge Alfred's death and to deal with it in a profound way so it doesn't feel as something out of nowhere or mere shock value. This comicbook served that purpose perfectly. Of course, 20 pages to just do that may see as an exageration in a bi-weekly schedule (and it would feel even more decompressed in a monthly basis), but in tradepaperback or by reading the whole arc once it's done, I think it will work better (as most of King's run does)
> 
> I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonment in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room
> 
> I have loved City of Bane thus far. The answers, just like in The Fall and the Fallen came in abruptly in some parts, but the good has surpassed the bad by a very fair margin


I loved the connection to the Annual "Every Day" with Bruce's final statement to Thomas. And I hope this issue will stand up as a really good "Batman grieves" issue in years to come.




> Hahaha yes that's clearly the course! 
> 
> The Thomas Wayne resurgence is interesting. Besides these three runs, there's also the Joker movie, the Telltale games, and Batman Damned. I think this parallel thinking among the writers is reflective of the era, as our view of the 1% has darkened, there's an instinct to address Bruce's blue-blood lineage in a way that frames it as something monstrous that he must overcome.
> 
> And I think, though I have really enjoyed King's run overall with the Bat-Cat focus, I am least compelled by the Thomas storyline — although, the next issue could change that with some great reveal of his deeper motivations. I'm still in a "wait and see" with how City Of Bane concludes in the next two issues.
> 
> 5. King — I think the incorporation of Flashpoint Batman and then making him integral to the larger run is an example of the writer's reach exceeding their grasp. It still seems, 25+ issues later, like the overall run would've been better had Thomas's plot points been just given to Bane instead.


Very interesting thoughts. I actually really like the substitution - I'm not really sure how much more King could have said about Batman and Bane than he said in the first 50 issues. Thomas adds thematic depth that I just don't think you could get with Bane.




> Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.
> 
> When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.
> 
> I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end. 
> 
> Those characters we learned were working with Bane were so surprising I felt sure that somewhere in the next 50 issues (now 35) we'd get to see what led to all of those characters working with Bane. I understand now that the issue in which Thomas Wayne told Bane what his plan had been and asked how he could help (essentially a recap of the story to that point) is pretty much all we're going to get with regard to Bane somehow convincing Joker, Riddler, Holly Robinson, Thomas Wayne, Ventriloquist, Skeets(!), and others joining his cause. And I have to say that's a major bummer to me.
> 
> This is not at all to say I haven't enjoyed what we have gotten because I have. Still, it seems King is a lot better at writing cliffhangers (Bane breaks Batman's back, Tim gets impaled, Batman gets shot twice in the gut, and most _especially_ that last panel of the wedding issue) than resolving them. Instead, even to an absolute lover of this run, it's clear now that the cliffhangers that have been so shocking are never going to be resolved. Before Knightmares we got one of the most thrilling cliffhangers in the entire run with Thomas Wayne invading the Batcave to attack Alfred and Bruce. To wait through so many dream sequences (all wonderful by the way), waiting for the story to pick back up where it left off, what felt like one of the most exciting scenes just never happened. Why so many cliffhangers with so few resolutions?
> ...


It's interesting that so many readers, even positively inclined readers, are feeling there's a lot of holes or things left unexplained. For some reason, these things aren't really bothering me - I honestly don't really have a problem with "how did Flashpoint Batman get to our universe" when Skeets is working with Bane. I'll look forward to the next issue to find Thomas's motivations, but I'm mostly satisfied with how the run is turning out.




> None of the above is to say I didn't enjoy Batman #83. I think it's one of the best issues of Batman of all time.


A bold claim! I'll have to sit with it for a bit longer, but it's definitely up there, but not really in the "top ten issues of the run" yet. I guess we'll have to do another ranking with our rereading!

----------


## Katana500

Why were all the batfamily just standing in a line. Are they supposed to have been Psycho pirated.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Why were all the batfamily just standing in a line. Are they supposed to have been Psycho pirated.


That's what I'm thinking, but next issue will explain it (hopefully)

----------


## bob.schoonover

> Why were all the batfamily just standing in a line. Are they supposed to have been Psycho pirated.


After Bruce passed out in 82, Thomas said something like "Let's get the Pirate and end this." I'm pretty sure Catwoman and all seven of the invading party are under his thrall.  

Have I missed any reference to Gotham Girl, or should we assume she's still warded off by Damian's spell?

----------


## Coco Loco

> After Bruce passed out in 82, Thomas said something like "Let's get the Pirate and end this." I'm pretty sure Catwoman and all seven of the invading party are under his thrall.  
> 
> Have I missed any reference to Gotham Girl, or should we assume she's still warded off by Damian's spell?


She was ill when we last saw her (one of the JrJr issues), and was being tended to by Thomas at Wayne Manor.

----------


## charliehustle415

> It's interesting that so many readers, even positively inclined readers, are feeling there's a lot of holes or things left unexplained. For some reason, these things aren't really bothering me - I honestly don't really have a problem with "how did Flashpoint Batman get to our universe" when Skeets is working with Bane. I'll look forward to the next issue to find Thomas's motivations, but I'm mostly satisfied with how the run is turning out.


I think it has to do with how many issues are left, if we had another arc or even a One-Shot to wrap everything up it wouldn't really matter. However, we only have about 40ish pages left, which makes me think it will be a hurried finale to a stellar run and the gem of the Rebirth era (the other being Tomasi's Superman). 

At least when Tomasi & Jurgen's were pushed off their titles they had One-Shots to give them extra pages to put a bow on everything.

Nevertheless, with the 3 last major runs: Morrison, Snyder, and now King. I can comfortably rank them like this:

1st Morrison
2nd King
3rd Snyder

----------


## bob.schoonover

> Nice catch for the Calendar Man callback
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with what you're saying and a lot of the plot feels like whiplash, on top of Bane's and Batman's convoluted plans and the Bane fake-out. But I think Alfred was supposed to escape (with Clayface or Ventriloquist) but for some reason was unable to, and sent the signal anyway for Damian to move in and sacrificed himself so that the plan could work.


To expand a bit, if the plan was to have a hostage that could get free and let everyone else in, I'm not sure why Alfred couldn't have done that himself.  I think the logic would be that they also needed Damian to take Claire off the board, but I think this is one of those seams that shows when they change the story (both plot elements and pacing) on the writer.




> Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.
> 
> When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.
> 
> I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end. 
> 
> SNIP (so my post isn't 1000 pages long)
> 
> Nothing is going to stop this run from having been my favorite run on my lifelong favorite title, but I'm already a little disappointed in a failure to provide a satisfying resolution to so many long-held questions. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder though if other lovers of this run harbor similar concerns or disappointments.


I'm basically here (I still prefer Morrison, but this is a great examination of Batman).  I voiced displeasure with whichever issue of Fall and the Fallen was Thomas explaining Bane's plan to him because it was all too neat. Thomas deduced all sorts of insane stuff Bane must have done, and we're all just expected to go "oh, it was probably pretty easy for the Riddler to get ahold of Skeets and reprogram him."  

I think Heroes in Crisis is causing me to pre-judge how I think the last two issues will go.  I enjoyed each of the first seven issues of that mini on their own, but thought the story was moving pretty slowly.  Then issue eight was a fatally flawed recap of what really happened and nine was just ...not good.  Yeah, I'm dreading #84 being Thomas monologuing to Bruce a story that is unbelievable even for DC (a monologue issue isn't the problem - it's the presumption of inanity).  

As a side note, had they called it Batman vs Bane, I think the Thomas betrayal would have been a little more cute than the basically misleading City of Bane title.  Maybe that made more sense when they were going to do tie-in stuff?




> SNIP
> 
> All that is to say, I _loved_ the version of Bane we see in the early part of King's run, especially I Am Suicide, and it felt like such a smart evolution for the character. I just wish we'd have gotten more from him. An issue of Bane going around and recruiting the people from #50 Â— seeing it from Bane's perspective, instead of learning about it secondhand from Thomas to Bane, or the Lex(?) bot in COB part one Â— would have really helped. 
> 
> It needs a "Letter from Bane" style issue, lol... something where we get a better understanding of what the hell this person wants, and why they're doing this incredibly elaborate endeavor. It's not impossible that won't come in the next issue, even though it seems like it'll need to be from Thomas's POV.
> 
> Edit: I guess that issue in the overall run would be the one from the "I Am Bane" conclusion, where we see the upbringings of Bruce and Bane mirroring each other. We saw in "War of Jokes and Riddles" that King isn't that interested in showing the logistics of supervillain team-ups and is fine to just hand-wave it and let you fill in the pieces, and I guess that's just how it is with "City of Bane" Â— the frustration being that both of those Gotham status quos are so unusual, that it feels incomplete without more context. The amount of plot-holes I have to be willing to ignore or fill in myself definitely makes me more forgiving of "TDK Rises".... the one thing I guess we know for sure about Bane is he wants to rule Gotham and he wants to break Batman's back. Why? Because life is a prison, and he is Bane, that's it.
> 
> I feel like King is Campbell, the QB from the Gotham Knights, and we're rooting for a late 4th quarter comeback but you can just smell a fumble coming. We'll see! I don't know. Based on the solitics, I'm not optimistic that Catwoman is sticking around as a life partner to Batman after the end of the run, but again who knows. 
> ...


I think we lost the thread of Bane wanting Psycho Pirate to just make him happy/content with the #50 reveal, which is a bit unfortunate.  That was a great bit of characterization - it made I Am Suicide and I Am Bane really hum as something different than Knightfall Redux (which is essentially what Fall and the Fallen and City of Bane became from Bane's POV).

I hope King isn't Campbell (or, he is, and in #85 we find out Campbell is leading the team to the Super Bowl finally) - I think it's more likely than not that I find the last two issues mildly disappointing, but not enough to tarnish my feeling about the run (so he's more like Kirk Cousins or Phillip Rivers before this season?).

As to Selina - I don't know.  My guess is DC would prefer them to remain unmarried and DC is in charge, but it'd be such a downer ending (not unlike Morrison's in Batman, Inc) if we spent three+ years seeing Bruce try to prove that he can be Batman and be somewhat happy and have her bail to show us that he can't.  Part of me kind of hopes DC makes Bat/Cat non-canon just so King can give us a happy-ish ending.




> It's interesting that so many readers, even positively inclined readers, are feeling there's a lot of holes or things left unexplained. For some reason, these things aren't really bothering me - I honestly don't really have a problem with "how did Flashpoint Batman get to our universe" when Skeets is working with Bane. I'll look forward to the next issue to find Thomas's motivations, but I'm mostly satisfied with how the run is turning out.
> 
> A bold claim! I'll have to sit with it for a bit longer, but it's definitely up there, but not really in the "top ten issues of the run" yet. I guess we'll have to do another ranking with our rereading!


I think I'd feel less bothered by the plot holes if, as BatmanJones said, the cliffhangers weren't so compelling. HiC had some huge plot holes that infuriated me as I read it (I'm sure I posted them in an appropriate thread), but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them anymore because the story just didn't catch or captivate me.  

We're going to have a lot of time, it seems, after Batman #85 to talk about this run as a whole.  I'm not going to say if #83 would be in my top ten yet, but it was certainly an engaging and well-drawn issue, even if I don't love its fit within the rest of the run.




> She was ill when we last saw her (one of the JrJr issues), and was being tended to by Thomas at Wayne Manor.


Thanks!



> I think it has to do with how many issues are left, if we had another arc or even a One-Shot to wrap everything up it wouldn't really matter. However, we only have about 40ish pages left, which makes me think it will be a hurried finale to a stellar run and the gem of the Rebirth era (the other being Tomasi's Superman). 
> 
> At least when Tomasi & Jurgen's were pushed off their titles they had One-Shots to give them extra pages to put a bow on everything.
> 
> Nevertheless, with the 3 last major runs: Morrison, Snyder, and now King. I can comfortably rank them like this:
> 
> 1st Morrison
> 2nd King
> 3rd Snyder


#85 is listed as 48 pages, so that's presumably 50 total pages for the last two parts.  Hopefully that's enough space to stick the landing.  

As a side note, I didn't think either Tomasi or Jurgens really used their one-shots to full effect to cap off their runs.  They probably had less notice than King did about the shortening of their runs, to be fair to them, but I'm not sure a special in January would have alleviated much.

I agree with your order.  Morrison's run (I have the omnibuses and am impatiently waiting for v3) is so much fun to re-read both in pieces and in full.  RIP just rocks.  So does B&R, ROBW, the League of Batmen 3-parter, etc.

------------------------

One last question for the peanut gallery - do we think the call Bruce made in #50 was related to the Joker/Clayface substitution?

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it has to do with how many issues are left, if we had another arc or even a One-Shot to wrap everything up it wouldn't really matter. However, we only have about 40ish pages left, which makes me think it will be a hurried finale to a stellar run and the gem of the Rebirth era (the other being Tomasi's Superman). 
> 
> At least when Tomasi & Jurgen's were pushed off their titles they had One-Shots to give them extra pages to put a bow on everything.
> 
> Nevertheless, with the 3 last major runs: Morrison, Snyder, and now King. I can comfortably rank them like this:
> 
> 1st Morrison
> 2nd King
> 3rd Snyder


I personally feel that though this is a conclusion, it's not the wrapup. And though Bat/Cat will hopefully more or less stand on its own, I think it also will function as the overall ending of King's Batman run - so I don't really view 85 as the end, just a transition point.

For me, the rankings of the last three Batman runs are definitely King, Morrison, Snyder. And the standout runs of Rebirth have been Rucka's Wonder Woman, Priest's Deathstroke, Tynion's Detective, and King's Batman. We'll have to see how Bat/Cat ends for my final ranking, though - whether I view it as a masterful whole, or a disappointment with moments of intense greatness.




> I think I'd feel less bothered by the plot holes if, as BatmanJones said, the cliffhangers weren't so compelling. HiC had some huge plot holes that infuriated me as I read it (I'm sure I posted them in an appropriate thread), but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them anymore because the story just didn't catch or captivate me.  
> 
> We're going to have a lot of time, it seems, after Batman #85 to talk about this run as a whole.  I'm not going to say if #83 would be in my top ten yet, but it was certainly an engaging and well-drawn issue, even if I don't love its fit within the rest of the run.
> 
> One last question for the peanut gallery - do we think the call Bruce made in #50 was related to the Joker/Clayface substitution?


I don't recall the phone call in #50. We'll have to check that out in the reread!

You make an excellent point that we care more about flaws in things we're engaged in, less so in things we overall don't like.

----------


## Inversed

For me, I liked the direction they took with the Bane and Thomas swap, just because in both #50 and #72, the reveals just made Bane seem way too "omnipresent", and even seemed to contradict his motivations and actions in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. We'll get a fully confirmation next issue, but having Thomas as the manipulator, making him believe all of this is his own plans, not only makes more sense how everything could be brought together as much as it was, but also fits much more in with Thomas' motivations. 

I know alot of people don't like that in "City Of Bane" that Bane was barely in it, but again, just like another poster mentioned, that's kind of the point. You're meant to believe it's "Bane's city", even though reading you see Thomas is the one actually doing everything, before in the end it's finally revealed why.

I also don't really consider this as the full "ending" to his run per se. While #85 is meant to act as a sense of conclusion, and Bat/Cat #1-12 will be able to stand on its own, ultimately they are a part of one continuous story. So given how the past issues have turned out, while I wouldn't be surprised if #85 ends up feeling a bit more rushed than it probably should've, we'll still have another 12 issues of narrative to conclude and pay-off any of the remaining thematic points.

Kind of like how even though Snyder's run ended with #52, technically still continued on through All-Star Batman, Metal, Batman Who Laughs, and Last Knight On Earth, which is all part of his overall story. (And how Morrison went from Batman to Batman & Robin to Batman Incorporated)

----------


## charliehustle415

> I personally feel that though this is a conclusion, it's not the wrapup. And though Bat/Cat will hopefully more or less stand on its own, I think it also will function as the overall ending of King's Batman run - so I don't really view 85 as the end, just a transition point.





> I also don't really consider this as the full "ending" to his run per se. While #85 is meant to act as a sense of conclusion, and Bat/Cat #1-12 will be able to stand on its own, ultimately they are a part of one continuous story. So given how the past issues have turned out, while I wouldn't be surprised if #85 ends up feeling a bit more rushed than it probably should've, we'll still have another 12 issues of narrative to conclude and pay-off any of the remaining thematic points.
> 
> Kind of like how even though Snyder's run ended with #52, technically still continued on through All-Star Batman, Metal, Batman Who Laughs, and Last Knight On Earth, which is all part of his overall story. (And how Morrison went from Batman to Batman & Robin to Batman Incorporated)


I agree it's not the _end_ But Snyder's run was wholly finished by issue 52 you could have stopped reading and it would feel like a conclusion. 

I guess for me I would like a ending that answers everything within said title; of course I may be talking out of my butt because we still have two issues left, but to leave dangling threads for another title seems bad form to me. 

But this is the nature of the medium.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree it's not the _end_ But Snyder's run was wholly finished by issue 52 you could have stopped reading and it would feel like a conclusion. 
> 
> I guess for me I would like a ending that answers everything within said title; of course I may be talking out of my butt because we still have two issues left, but to leave dangling threads for another title seems bad form to me. 
> 
> But this is the nature of the medium.


You could, but Snyder clearly hinted in #51 at what was to come in Metal (though whether he delivered on that hint is another question). Snyder and King write very differently, though. Snyder writes in chunks, building on themes, but not necessarily having a strong through-line between all of his arcs. King tries to think of his runs as one whole - which is why I don't really draw a distinction between Batman and Bat/Cat at this time.

----------


## Inversed

> I agree it's not the _end_ But Snyder's run was wholly finished by issue 52 you could have stopped reading and it would feel like a conclusion. 
> 
> I guess for me I would like a ending that answers everything within said title; of course I may be talking out of my butt because we still have two issues left, but to leave dangling threads for another title seems bad form to me. 
> 
> But this is the nature of the medium.


I do think, at the absolute least, #85 will conclude majority of the main plot points and threads that have been laid throughout the book, but Bat/Cat is where the thematic and emotional ending (Bruce and Selina's relationship and Batman's true purpose) of the run will occur. Which is probably the best and most appropriate way to handle it.




> You could, but Snyder clearly hinted in #51 at what was to come in Metal (though whether he delivered on that hint is another question). Snyder and King write very differently, though. Snyder writes in chunks, building on themes, but not necessarily having a strong through-line between all of his arcs. King tries to think of his runs as one whole - which is why I don't really draw a distinction between Batman and Bat/Cat at this time.


I've said this before in how I've looked into Morrison, Snyder, and King's runs are structured, how they handle their expanded narratives.

Morrison's run is one story split into 5 acts: 
Batman And Son > Batman R.I.P. > Batman And Robin > The Return Of Bruce Wayne > Batman Incorporated

Snyder's is 10 core storylines that are interconnected through a larger narrative (with all of his other series acting as adjacent stories towards these main ones): 
The Black Mirror > The Court Of Owls > Death Of The Family > Zero Year > Endgame > Superheavy > All-Star Batman > Metal > The Batman Who Laughs > Last Knight On Earth

King's is 1 large 100-issue ongoing plot which is connected through its chapters and stories of various sizes that come together to fit a thematic point. 

Also in comparison to the three, I've found that King's bigger arcs are much less standalone than Morrison or Snyder's are, but King's one-shots and short stories can be seen as more standalone than the two's.

----------


## gregpersons

> For me, I liked the direction they took with the Bane and Thomas swap, just because in both #50 and #72, the reveals just made Bane seem way too "omnipresent", and even seemed to contradict his motivations and actions in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. We'll get a fully confirmation next issue, but having Thomas as the manipulator, making him believe all of this is his own plans, not only makes more sense how everything could be brought together as much as it was, but also fits much more in with Thomas' motivations. 
> 
> I know alot of people don't like that in "City Of Bane" that Bane was barely in it, but again, just like another poster mentioned, that's kind of the point. You're meant to believe it's "Bane's city", even though reading you see Thomas is the one actually doing everything, before in the end it's finally revealed why.


I definitely appreciate this perspective but, like... WHAT are Thomas's motivations, though? They don't seem to add up, to me. Like, I get that he doesn't want Bruce to be Batman, but why and to what end? It's initially presented as — "Don't be Batman. Be happy." — but all of his machinations from #50 onward have been to break Bruce's spirit. So... what is the goal? Make him so miserable so he'll be happy?? Huh??

It's odd, too, because the issue of "The Button" in which Thomas says "Don't be Batman" — that issue isn't even scripted by King! It's so strange for that crossover to arc to cast such a long shadow over the run.

----------


## millernumber1

> I definitely appreciate this perspective but, like... WHAT are Thomas's motivations, though? They don't seem to add up, to me. Like, I get that he doesn't want Bruce to be Batman, but why and to what end? It's initially presented as — "Don't be Batman. Be happy." — but all of his machinations from #50 onward have been to break Bruce's spirit. So... what is the goal? Make him so miserable so he'll be happy?? Huh??
> 
> It's odd, too, because the issue of "The Button" in which Thomas says "Don't be Batman" — that issue isn't even scripted by King! It's so strange for that crossover to arc to cast such a long shadow over the run.


I think that we really will get some understanding of Thomas's motivations next issue. At least, that's my hope.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> I definitely appreciate this perspective but, like... WHAT are Thomas's motivations, though? They don't seem to add up, to me. Like, I get that he doesn't want Bruce to be Batman, but why and to what end? It's initially presented as Â "Don't be Batman. Be happy." Â but all of his machinations from #50 onward have been to break Bruce's spirit. So... what is the goal? Make him so miserable so he'll be happy?? Huh??
> 
> It's odd, too, because the issue of "The Button" in which Thomas says "Don't be Batman" Â that issue isn't even scripted by King! It's so strange for that crossover to arc to cast such a long shadow over the run.


I'm hoping next issue we get all the answers we are looking for.  From what I see, Thomas wants Bruce to be his ideal son.  He wants Bruce to need him.  He wants Bruce to not be like him (Batman).  He tried to resurrect Martha in the Nain Pit to give him back his "perfect" family.  He couldn't understand how Bruce didn't want that too and the extremes he went through to make sure it didn't happen.  Thomas could easily view Alfred as a rival and enabler to Bruce's lifestyle.  Removing him from the picture is necessary for him to get his son "back."  Can't wait to find out how long he's been in this timeline and how long he's been trying to control Bruce's life since then.

----------


## Inversed

> I definitely appreciate this perspective but, like... WHAT are Thomas's motivations, though? They don't seem to add up, to me. Like, I get that he doesn't want Bruce to be Batman, but why and to what end? It's initially presented as  "Don't be Batman. Be happy."  but all of his machinations from #50 onward have been to break Bruce's spirit. So... what is the goal? Make him so miserable so he'll be happy?? Huh??
> 
> It's odd, too, because the issue of "The Button" in which Thomas says "Don't be Batman"  that issue isn't even scripted by King! It's so strange for that crossover to arc to cast such a long shadow over the run.


We'll most likely get the official answer next week, but my interpretation was that he wanted him to quit being Batman so he can be happy, so when he ends up in the main DCU and finds out he's planning to still be Batman, and proposed to a "common thief", that's not good enough, so he goes to all of these lengths to essentially force him to give up being Batman, so he can "eventually" be happy that way. Thomas is also very clearly deranged and not really in the right of mind, so I can see why someone like this would do all of this to "break the Bat", since he feels its the only way to make him stop.

----------


## Scott Taylor

To me the run is not going to be about happiness for Batman, but happiness for those around him. Flashpoint Batman was surrounded by people who he let down in one way or another. His wife was the Joker. He had no Bat family. His City had completely gone to hell. I don't know for sure what happened with his Alfred or the other typical Batman characters like Gordon, but we could presume it was not good. All because of him being Batman, probably. 

The same kind of thing was echoed in the alternative universe we saw in the Gift, where Dick is a raging, gun-toting Batman and pretty much everyone else is miserable. 

The lesson here is that the notion of Batman itself is a path that leads to tragedy.

----------


## millernumber1

> To me the run is not going to be about happiness for Batman, but happiness for those around him. Flashpoint Batman was surrounded by people who he let down in one way or another. His wife was the Joker. He had no Bat family. His City had completely gone to hell. I don't know for sure what happened with his Alfred or the other typical Batman characters like Gordon, but we could presume it was not good. All because of him being Batman, probably. 
> 
> The same kind of thing was echoed in the alternative universe we saw in the Gift, where Dick is a raging, gun-toting Batman and pretty much everyone else is miserable. 
> 
> The lesson here is that the notion of Batman itself is a path that leads to tragedy.


I hope that's not the case. Because as tragic as Batman is, I think he should be a symbol of hope - and I think King has leaned pretty hard on that as well.

----------


## Scott Taylor

> I hope that's not the case. Because as tragic as Batman is, I think he should be a symbol of hope - and I think King has leaned pretty hard on that as well.


Remember this is just Thomas Wayne's perspective. He sees Batman differently from Bruce, be what I am saying. Bruce absolutely sees himself as a symbol of hope, and that is the true clash with Thomas, who has lost all of his hope.

----------


## charliehustle415

So I just restarted re-rereading King's run and I just finished all the way up to "I am Bane" 

It's pretty remarkable how much is telegraphed in the early part of the run. 

Bane references how he gives nightmare and what he will do to Gotham, I don't know why people say King didn't plan anything out.

----------


## gregpersons

> So I just restarted re-rereading King's run and I just finished all the way up to "I am Bane" 
> 
> It's pretty remarkable how much is telegraphed in the early part of the run. 
> 
> *Bane references how he gives nightmare* and what he will do to Gotham, I don't know why people say King didn't plan anything out.


Good catch! I forgot that.

----------


## millernumber1

> So I just restarted re-rereading King's run and I just finished all the way up to "I am Bane" 
> 
> It's pretty remarkable how much is telegraphed in the early part of the run. 
> 
> Bane references how he gives nightmare and what he will do to Gotham, I don't know why people say King didn't plan anything out.


I was just chatting about The Brave and the Mold...and I wonder if King was foreshadowing Alfred's death there.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I was just chatting about The Brave and the Mold...and I wonder if King was foreshadowing Alfred's death there.


I have no doubt, especially when Bruce wanted to know where his parents went and started screaming at Swampy

----------


## gregpersons

> I have no doubt, especially when Bruce wanted to know where his parents went and started screaming at Swampy


I wonder if Bruce will make an exception to his rule and kill Thomas.

----------


## millernumber1

> I wonder if Bruce will make an exception to his rule and kill Thomas.


That seems very unlikely. I would be very much against it.

----------


## bob.schoonover

> I wonder if Bruce will make an exception to his rule and kill Thomas.


I believe Thomas will end up dead, but probably not by Bruce's hand.  Jor El was put back where he belonged - Thomas should be next.

----------


## Katana500

> I believe Thomas will end up dead, but probably not by Bruce's hand.  Jor El was put back where he belonged - Thomas should be next.


I could see either Catwoman, Gotham Girl or Bane maybe killing Thomas

----------


## millernumber1

> I believe Thomas will end up dead, but probably not by Bruce's hand.  Jor El was put back where he belonged - Thomas should be next.


I still think he's going to sacrifice himself to resurrect someone.

----------


## charliehustle415

> That seems very unlikely. I would be very much against it.


I don't know about that, I just finished War of Jokes & Riddles and he did try to kill the Riddler. 

Also I just realized the _Him_ that kept being referenced in the early part of the run is the Joker because of Bruce's attempted murder of the Riddler, I always thought it was the memory of Thomas Wayne based on the letter Bruce received during Flashpoint.

Also in the very beginning King laid out his thesis: Batman is Batman because he *cannot* stop, and Thomas is his rival, his antithesis. 

Bane was his dark mirror because he too couldn't stop being Bane. 

Pretty amazing

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know about that, I just finished War of Jokes & Riddles and he did try to kill the Riddler. 
> 
> Also I just realized the _Him_ that kept being referenced in the early part of the run is the Joker because of Bruce's attempted murder of the Riddler, I always thought it was the memory of Thomas Wayne based on the letter Bruce received during Flashpoint.
> 
> Also in the very beginning King laid out his thesis: Batman is Batman because he *cannot* stop, and Thomas is his rival, his antithesis. 
> 
> Bane was his dark mirror because he too couldn't stop being Bane. 
> 
> Pretty amazing


It is pretty cool! I think you have a good point about the parallels between War of Jokes and Riddles and City of Bane...both feature a city controlled by villains. But I hope not. I don't want Batman to kill.

----------


## Scott Taylor

> I wonder if Bruce will make an exception to his rule and kill Thomas.


Hopefully not. It seems much more likely that he will be placed back into the same timeline he left, at the time he left it. Like Jor El, he will then die instantly of "natural causes." The main thing I will be looking for will be whether Bruce can convince him that he is wrong prior to that happening.

----------


## gregpersons

> I could see either Catwoman, Gotham Girl or Bane maybe killing Thomas


Catwoman doing it could make sense (and be yet another parallel to Dark Knight Rises for this run)... and would make sense as the one who "stops" Batman from killing (like Joker in War of Jokes & Riddles) but does it for him, to save him from it, in a different way than Joker did.

----------


## charliehustle415

> It is pretty cool! I think you have a good point about the parallels between War of Jokes and Riddles and City of Bane...both feature a city controlled by villains. But I hope not. I don't want Batman to kill.


I mean, King's Batman is not a _good_ man; I mean he got Kite Man's kid killed. I know Riddler said he planned it, but none of it would have involved him if Batman didn't approach Kite Man first to become a spy. 

I think King's portrayal of Batman is definitely more toward of Dark Knight as opposed to White Knight. A lot of innocent people died because of his gambit to join the Riddler.

Also was there a continuity error in Jokes & Riddles? 

Riddler says he would kill Batman's family and there's a glimpse of his inner thoughts with the entire bat-family on their knees about to be shot, but Bruce has only been Batman for about a year

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean, King's Batman is not a _good_ man; I mean he got Kite Man's kid killed. I know Riddler said he planned it, but none of it would have involved him if Batman didn't approach Kite Man first to become a spy. 
> 
> I think King's portrayal of Batman is definitely more toward of Dark Knight as opposed to White Knight. A lot of innocent people died because of his gambit to join the Riddler.
> 
> Also was there a continuity error in Jokes & Riddles? 
> 
> Riddler says he would kill Batman's family and there's a glimpse of his inner thoughts with the entire bat-family on their knees about to be shot, but Bruce has only been Batman for about a year


I reject the idea that because Batman asked someone to do something dangerous but good, and they agreed (even if under duress), he is responsible for the evil that others do. I don't think Batman is responsible for what the Joker does. That way lies moral madness.

I don't think King's primary argument in this run against Batman is that he's dark. I think if you look at #50, Knightmares, and Rules of Engagement, his argument is that Batman is a boy's response to tragedy - fundamentally immature. My own read on the situation is that King is trying to find a way for Batman to grow up, but still be Batman.

We'll have to wait for the reread to answer the question on the Riddler. I don't remember it clearly enough to say.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I reject the idea that because Batman asked someone to do something dangerous but good, and they agreed (even if under duress), he is responsible for the evil that others do. I don't think Batman is responsible for what the Joker does. That way lies moral madness.
> 
> 
> I don't think King's primary argument in this run against Batman is that he's dark. I think if you look at #50, Knightmares, and Rules of Engagement, his argument is that Batman is a boy's response to tragedy - fundamentally immature. My own read on the situation is that King is trying to find a way for Batman to grow up, but still be Batman.
> 
> 
> We'll have to wait for the reread to answer the question on the Riddler. I don't remember it clearly enough to say.


I don't know about that, if someone forced me to rob a bank I wouldn't be the one in trouble. 

No, not primary; but an argument can be made that is the whole point of Thomas. 

Thomas is what Bruce may become

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know about that, if someone forced me to rob a bank I wouldn't be the one in trouble. 
> 
> No, not primary; but an argument can be made that is the whole point of Thomas. 
> 
> Thomas is what Bruce may become


If someone forced you to rob a bank you would be in trouble. I'm of the Platonic school that it's better to suffer wrong than do wrong. Is it as blameworthy? No - of course we wouldn't blame someone as harshly if they were forced to do something wrong. But, as in the Marvel Civil War movie, that doesn't make the victims any less dead. It was still a wrong thing that you did yourself that (usually) you can prevent.

The whole point of Thomas is to show what an adult response to tragedy CAN be - but I'm hoping that King will find a way forward for Bruce that says that Batman CAN grow up, at least a little, and not become a killer.

----------


## charliehustle415

> If someone forced you to rob a bank you would be in trouble. I'm of the Platonic school that it's better to suffer wrong than do wrong. Is it as blameworthy? No - of course we wouldn't blame someone as harshly if they were forced to do something wrong. But, as in the Marvel Civil War movie, that doesn't make the victims any less dead. It was still a wrong thing that you did yourself that (usually) you can prevent.
> 
> The whole point of Thomas is to show what an adult response to tragedy CAN be - but I'm hoping that King will find a way forward for Bruce that says that Batman CAN grow up, at least a little, and not become a killer.


That's easy in theory, but when faced with broken limbs it would be difficult to say no; nevertheless, I think this is why I love King's run there are so many ways to read it. 

I think Bruce may try to kill Thomas but will probably get stopped by Selina who then in turn will kill Thomas.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's easy in theory, but when faced with broken limbs it would be difficult to say no; nevertheless, I think this is why I love King's run there are so many ways to read it. 
> 
> I think Bruce may try to kill Thomas but will probably get stopped by Selina who then in turn will kill Thomas.


That seems so bleak. I mean, this is King we're talking about, and it WOULD be a pretty close fit to what happens in his Vision series.

(And no, my philosophy is not an easy one live out. But I don't think our world allows for an easy moral philosophy, or everyone would agree!  :Smile:  )

----------


## bob.schoonover

> That's easy in theory, but when faced with broken limbs it would be difficult to say no; nevertheless, I think this is why I love King's run there are so many ways to read it. 
> 
> I think Bruce may try to kill Thomas but will probably get stopped by Selina who then in turn will kill Thomas.


Not to go all Babylon 5 on this, but I think the solution for Bruce is what Lorien said about the Shadow War "You cannot win this war through force. You must understand your way out of this." - Thomas can be physically beaten, certainly, and Deus Ex Manhattan can always take care of him, but in order for the story to make sense, Bruce and Thomas need some sort of closure.  Bruce needs to show Thomas that what Thomas wants for Bruce will not make Bruce happy. 

The family standing up (presumably under Pirate's thrall) are what give Bruce purpose and contentment. If the story ends with Thomas not understanding that, if it's just a physical fight that determines who is Batman, then Thomas serves almost no purpose in the story that couldn't have been filled by Bane.

----------


## charliehustle415

> That seems so bleak. I mean, this is King we're talking about, and it WOULD be a pretty close fit to what happens in his Vision series.
> 
> (And no, my philosophy is not an easy one live out. But I don't think our world allows for an easy moral philosophy, or everyone would agree!  )


Don't I know it (coming from a Philosophy Professor  :Wink: )

----------


## millernumber1

> Don't I know it (coming from a Philosophy Professor )


Well, fist bump from former English adjunct  :Wink:

----------


## charliehustle415

> Well, fist bump from former English adjunct


Whatup, fellow academic!

----------


## gregpersons

> I don't think King's primary argument in this run against Batman is that he's dark. I think if you look at #50, Knightmares, and Rules of Engagement, his argument is that Batman is a boy's response to tragedy - fundamentally immature. My own read on the situation is that King is trying to find a way for Batman to grow up, but still be Batman.


I think that's right. And I do think he will have a moment where he shows his growth to Thomas — perhaps illustrating that Thomas's view of Batman is it's a curse, whereas for Bruce, Batman is just who he is. He's Batman because he's Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think that's right. And I do think he will have a moment where he shows his growth to Thomas — perhaps illustrating that Thomas's view of Batman is it's a curse, whereas for Bruce, Batman is just who he is. He's Batman because he's Batman.


That's an intriguing idea. I personally hope that it's a bit more in line with marrying Selina, but that's me  :Smile:

----------


## cc008

An opportunity's presented itself where I can acquire King's Batman run as individual issues, which I'd very much prefer to paperback (which I've been collecting up through Snyder's run). 

So long as I don't really need to read anything outside the main Batman series, I'd like to pull the trigger. Would I be okay JUST reading King's _Batman_? Or would I need to collect Detective Comics & other Batfamily books to get the whole picture?

----------


## bob.schoonover

> An opportunity's presented itself where I can acquire King's Batman run as individual issues, which I'd very much prefer to paperback (which I've been collecting up through Snyder's run). 
> 
> So long as I don't really need to read anything outside the main Batman series, I'd like to pull the trigger. Would I be okay JUST reading King's _Batman_? Or would I need to collect Detective Comics & other Batfamily books to get the whole picture?


King's run technically crosses over 3 times - the Monster Men arc with Nightwing and 'Tec (4 extra issues to track down - its it's a fun story but it just clears up one plot point from Batman that you can probably figure out), The Button (2 issues of Flash - absolutely essential that you read this story)  and The Price (2 issues of Flash with a story that hasn't been referenced since). I don't think reading anything else will increases your appreciation or lack thereof for King's run.

----------


## millernumber1

> King's run technically crosses over 3 times - the Monster Men arc with Nightwing and 'Tec (4 extra issues to track down - its it's a fun story but it just clears up one plot point from Batman that you can probably figure out), The Button (2 issues of Flash - absolutely essential that you read this story)  and The Price (2 issues of Flash with a story that hasn't been referenced since). I don't think reading anything else will increases your appreciation or lack thereof for King's run.


Agreed. King's run is very self contained outside of those crossovers.

----------


## cc008

Went for it. I'm excited to get reading.

----------


## millernumber1

> Went for it. I'm excited to get reading.


Awesome! We're going to be doing a reread together starting in January, if you want to read along with us!

----------


## cc008

> Awesome! We're going to be doing a reread together starting in January, if you want to read along with us!


That's perfect because by the time I finish the end of Snyder's run and the other New 52 stuff it'll be close to January. I'm in!

----------


## charliehustle415

> Agreed. King's run is very self contained outside of those crossovers.


What about Heroes in Crisis or Prelude to The Wedding?

----------


## Inversed

> What about Heroes in Crisis or Prelude to The Wedding?


Other than a brief mention of Sanctuary, and the HiC Flash tie-in crossover (which he didn't even write), Heroes In Crisis doesn't really connect to or effect the main book, so its easy not to include it from the rest of the run. Same with Preludes to The Wedding, which are fun are on their own, but don't really impact the main book in any meaningful way (and also include alot of continuity errors between the two). The only really wedding prelude I feel is necessary to include is Your Big Day from DC Nation #0.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Other than a brief mention of Sanctuary, and the HiC Flash tie-in crossover (which he didn't even write), Heroes In Crisis doesn't really connect to or effect the main book, so its easy not to include it from the rest of the run. Same with Preludes to The Wedding, which are fun are on their own, but don't really impact the main book in any meaningful way (and also include alot of continuity errors between the two). The only really wedding prelude I feel is necessary to include is Your Big Day from DC Nation #0.


Just finished rereading issue 50, I didn't realize Skeets was with the group of villains; I wonder if Heroes in Crisis was supposed to play on that? Or is that another jettisoned storyline?

----------


## millernumber1

> Just finished rereading issue 50, I didn't realize Skeets was with the group of villains; I wonder if Heroes in Crisis was supposed to play on that? Or is that another jettisoned storyline?


I think The Gift is where Skeets is supposed to play out.

----------


## Inversed

> I think The Gift is where Skeets is supposed to play out.


Yeah, according to Thomas in #72, Bane got Riddler to reprogram Skeets so that he would send Booster to that bad future so that he would then tell Batman & Catwoman, and then lead her to doubt herself, etc. (kinda a tad convoluted, to be honest)

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, according to Thomas in #72, Bane got Riddler to reprogram Skeets so that he would send Booster to that bad future so that he would then tell Batman & Catwoman, and then lead her to doubt herself, etc. (kinda a tad convoluted, to be honest)


A Tom King plot, convoluted? You don't say!  :Smile:

----------


## charliehustle415

> Yeah, according to Thomas in #72, Bane got Riddler to reprogram Skeets so that he would send Booster to that bad future so that he would then tell Batman & Catwoman, and then lead her to doubt herself, etc. (kinda a tad convoluted, to be honest)


I swear King's run cannot be read as they are published you will miss so much; I am happy about the re-read coming up in January. This run begs to be read in huge chunks

----------


## millernumber1

> I swear King's run cannot be read as they are published you will miss so much; I am happy about the re-read coming up in January. This run begs to be read in huge chunks


That is true. I think there is a lot to be gained by reading as a King series comes out, but they do read exceptionally well as a whole.

----------


## Chubistian

I'm reading through the last bit of Alan Moore's run in Swamp Thing and I just read issue #56, which I hadn't visited again in quite some time, and I noticed that this can be the inspiration or part of the inspiration for the issue of Knightmares with a dream construct of John Constantine. In the issue of Swamp Thing, Swampy ends up stuck in a world with no intelligent life and he creates a fake world copying the life he had on Earth. The construct of his that confronts him about what he is doing is John Constantine. Just like in Knightmares, this false Constantine appears as the voice of reason convincing the protagonist that he is trapped in a lie

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm reading through the last bit of Alan Moore's run in Swamp Thing and I just read issue #56, which I hadn't visited again in quite some time, and I noticed that this can be the inspiration or part of the inspiration for the issue of Knightmares with a dream construct of John Constantine. In the issue of Swamp Thing, Swampy ends up stuck in a world with no intelligent life and he creates a fake world copying the life he had on Earth. The construct of his that confronts him about what he is doing is John Constantine. Just like in Knightmares, this false Constantine appears as the voice of reason convincing the protagonist that he is trapped in a lie


Nice find! I know King thinks Alan Moore is pretty great, and we know that he also loves Swamp Thing, so odds are good that he is aware of this and making use of the concepts.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Nice find! I know King thinks Alan Moore is pretty great, and we know that he also loves Swamp Thing, so odds are good that he is aware of this and making use of the concepts.


I'm still trying to understand Damian as Pyg though. 

My reading of the situation is that Father and Son could be happy similar to Pygmalion and his beautiful statue. However, unlike Pygmalion who found happiness with a lifeless statue Bruce will not allow himself to be happy with a flesh and blood son that adores him. I think that's why King had such vivid description of blood, guts, and sinew within the issue.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm still trying to understand Damian as Pyg though. 
> 
> My reading of the situation is that Father and Son could be happy similar to Pygmalion and his beautiful statue. However, unlike Pygmalion who found happiness with a lifeless statue Bruce will not allow himself to be happy with a flesh and blood son that adores him. I think that's why King had such vivid description of blood, guts, and sinew within the issue.


That's a good note! I love the story of Pygmalion, and I think the idea I took from 61 (other than the unusually emotional Frank Miller variant cover) was the idea that Batman feels like his family is his creation, his "fault," and that's why he can't be happy with them. He wishes they could live free of his vow.

----------


## charliehustle415

> That's a good note! I love the story of Pygmalion, and I think the idea I took from 61 (other than the unusually emotional Frank Miller variant cover) was the idea that Batman feels like his family is his creation, his "fault," and that's why he can't be happy with them. He wishes they could live free of his vow.


Ohh, that's good; that's right the _vow_ plays such a big role. How can he honor his vow to Selina if he is beholden to *THE VOW*?

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

The answers are finally coming! https://screenrant.com/flashpoint-ba...ained-preview/

----------


## bat1987

I'd be really pissed if this doesn't end with bruce beating the living crap out of his father.

----------


## bob.schoonover

Hmm.  Thawne doing it as revenge is a nice poetic twist - one wonders if that was always the intention when they were planning out The Button and tying into Doomsday Clock.  The art is beautiful, and I'm a sucker for backwards-told stories.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Hmm.  Thawne doing it as revenge is a nice poetic twist - one wonders if that was always the intention when they were planning out The Button and tying into Doomsday Clock.  The art is beautiful, and I'm a sucker for backwards-told stories.


Would reading doomsday clock make reading Batman better

----------


## Denirac

This Whole thing is retroactively trying to make this make sense: Also Thawne goes "Flash" as he runs off? *Really*, Just 1 More Issue after this Thank God.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Would reading doomsday clock make reading Batman better


Nope, all you have to read is The Button. 


On the preview; I CANNOT wait! Yes finally this is all I wanted some explanation and the art is gorgeous

----------


## millernumber1

> Nope, all you have to read is The Button. 
> 
> 
> On the preview; I CANNOT wait! Yes finally this is all I wanted some explanation and the art is gorgeous


Fornes is amazing. Very glad he's getting to do some more Batman!

----------


## Inversed

Surprise Fornes appearance is MMMMMMMMMMMM good stuff. I know you want Mann to do everything in Bat/Cat to make it more consistent...buuuuuut if you threw in a Fornes appearance here and there I wouldn't mind at all  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Surprise Fornes appearance is MMMMMMMMMMMM good stuff. I know you want Mann to do everything in Bat/Cat to make it more consistent...buuuuuut if you threw in a Fornes appearance here and there I wouldn't mind at all


Neither would I! Or a Lee Weeks special issue...  :Smile:

----------


## Scott Taylor

Looks amazing. Can't believe I never considered Thawne. What a dick that guy is!

----------


## charliehustle415

> Looks amazing. Can't believe I never considered Thawne. What a dick that guy is!


FLASH FACT: Thawne = Dick

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Chubistian

I'm all in for making The Button more relevant, as I think it didn't live up to the hype and originally I thought it was pure promotion to Doomsday Clock, but as times passes it proves itself to be more and more important. I still think the arc had flaws, but at least I can appreciate it more than before. I can't say the same for The Price yet, though ...

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm all in for making The Button more relevant, as I think it didn't live up to the hype and originally I thought it was pure promotion to Doomsday Clock, but as times passes it proves itself to be more and more important. I still think the arc had flaws, but at least I can appreciate it more than before. I can't say the same for The Price yet, though ...


I'm coming to think the same things. I still don't necessarily enjoy reading The Button itself, but I think King did some hard work trying to make it important to the whole thing.

----------


## Scott Taylor

> FLASH FACT: Thawne = Dick


Hah, I laughed more than I should have at that. Needs to be a line on the WB series.

----------


## gregpersons

Preview looks awesome.... can't wait 'til tonight!

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

I'm assuming we'll get the answer when the rest of the issue comes out on Wednesday, but why did Thomas decide to be a creeper in the shadows instead of going to Bruce once Thawne dumped him in this universe?  Thank god The Button took place after Rooftops.

----------


## Denirac

> I'm assuming we'll get the answer when the rest of the issue comes out on Wednesday, but why did Thomas decide to be a creeper in the shadows instead of going to Bruce once Thawne dumped him in this universe?  Thank god The Button took place after Rooftops.


Who knows when Thawne dumped him. Guy was probably there for that too

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm assuming we'll get the answer when the rest of the issue comes out on Wednesday, but why did Thomas decide to be a creeper in the shadows instead of going to Bruce once Thawne dumped him in this universe?  Thank god The Button took place after Rooftops.


Haha. Batman, no matter who is in the cowl, is always kind of a creeper.

----------


## gregpersons

Great issue. 

I loved the reveal behind Thomas's motivations, and loved the Memento-esque approach to the backwards narrative (appropriate enough since City Of Bane has more than a few parallels to Dark Knight Rises). 

Can't wait for 85!

----------


## Gotham citizen

I walked away from the X-men because I was exasperated by the alternative realities and the hyperconvoluted plots and what did I find in Batman? A run heavily based on alternative realities and hyperconvoluted plots; is it some kind of curse?
 :Wink:

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I walked away from the X-men because I was exasperated by the alternative realities and the hyperconvoluted plots and what did I find in Batman? A run heavily based on alternative realities and hyperconvoluted plots; is it some kind of curse?


I don't read Marvel beacause of that and I can feel you man. IMO Batman should stay away from alternative realities, time travels etc. it should be only streetfighting and detective, there are many other franchises for these kind of scenarios.

----------


## Chubistian

I liked the issue. It adds more depth to Thomas' motivations and I enjoyed the parallels, which are essentials in King's run. Jorge Fornes is spectacular as always, same with Jordie Bellaire. There were two mistakes, though. One I can forgive, which was a coloring error that made Flash look like Reverse Flash. The other, was making the Penguin one of the rogues Thomas kills. The Penguin was alive in the original Flashpoint Batman story by Azzarello and Risso and he was helping Thomas in his business with the casino Wayne owned. It's one of those errors that I wonder how it slipped through writer and editors. He's even in the cover of the first chapter of Knight of Vengeance wearing the same outfit he does in this issue!

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Finally, another full Fornes issue! 

I don't know if the entire issue should've been dedicated to the Thomas Wayne flashback, but I suppose that it was necessary to spend a decent bit getting down the motivations for FP Thomas Wayne (and I suppose also exposit what happened in The Button for anyone reading the run who skipped The Button) and I do find that it was one of King's better written issues in this final stretch of his run. 

Though I do have to agree, how did nobody catch the Flashpoint Penguin error? Unless King decided Flashpoint was one of those alternate continuities where Oswald had a completely identical twin brother named Otto who became the Penguin while Oswald became Wayne's employee. I think maybe instead of the Penguin, King should've used Falcone or one of the other starter villains of Batman to further the parallels with Bruce's career.

----------


## gordonm

I really liked this issue. It felt like King finally putting pieces into place after oh-so-long and drawn out stories.

----------


## Desmark

The use of reverse flash instead of Dr Manhattan for explaining Flashpoint Batman surviving was a nice of to continuity.

----------


## millernumber1

> Great issue. 
> 
> I loved the reveal behind Thomas's motivations, and loved the Memento-esque approach to the backwards narrative (appropriate enough since City Of Bane has more than a few parallels to Dark Knight Rises). 
> 
> Can't wait for 85!


This was very Grayson: Future's End. I really enjoyed it. I'm very worried, though, that because Thomas tells Bruce to marry Selina, he won't, and this all turns into "Batman can't change."




> I walked away from the X-men because I was exasperated by the alternative realities and the hyperconvoluted plots and what did I find in Batman? A run heavily based on alternative realities and hyperconvoluted plots; is it some kind of curse?


To be fair, King isn't unique in relying on convoluted plots and alternate realities. Snyder's plots are very convoluted, and issue #49 goes into alternate realities quite a bit. Morrison is even more convoluted and the 666 future is vital to his plot.




> I liked the issue. It adds more depth to Thomas' motivations and I enjoyed the parallels, which are essentials in King's run. Jorge Fornes is spectacular as always, same with Jordie Bellaire. There were two mistakes, though. One I can forgive, which was a coloring error that made Flash look like Reverse Flash. The other, was making the Penguin one of the rogues Thomas kills. The Penguin was alive in the original Flashpoint Batman story by Azzarello and Risso and he was helping Thomas in his business with the casino Wayne owned. It's one of those errors that I wonder how it slipped through writer and editors. He's even in the cover of the first chapter of Knight of Vengeance wearing the same outfit he does in this issue!


I liked Thomas's motivation reveal here as well. And as I've been predicting Skeets as the culprit, Reverse Flash being the villain is a nice surprise.

Fornes is a gift - I really hope he and King are doing something soon!




> Finally, another full Fornes issue! 
> 
> I don't know if the entire issue should've been dedicated to the Thomas Wayne flashback, but I suppose that it was necessary to spend a decent bit getting down the motivations for FP Thomas Wayne (and I suppose also exposit what happened in The Button for anyone reading the run who skipped The Button) and I do find that it was one of King's better written issues in this final stretch of his run. 
> 
> Though I do have to agree, how did nobody catch the Flashpoint Penguin error? Unless King decided Flashpoint was one of those alternate continuities where Oswald had a completely identical twin brother named Otto who became the Penguin while Oswald became Wayne's employee. I think maybe instead of the Penguin, King should've used Falcone or one of the other starter villains of Batman to further the parallels with Bruce's career.


Given how many people I talk to are frustrated with not knowing how or why Thomas is doing what he's doing, I think a full issue is justified. And the build up to this in Beasts of Burden, and even some of the others, makes a lot of sense.




> The use of reverse flash instead of Dr Manhattan for explaining Flashpoint Batman surviving was a nice of to continuity.


It does make the run feel less dependent on outside stories, which I'm generally in favor of.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I liked the issue. It adds more depth to Thomas' motivations and I enjoyed the parallels, which are essentials in King's run. Jorge Fornes is spectacular as always, same with Jordie Bellaire. There were two mistakes, though. One I can forgive, which was a coloring error that made Flash look like Reverse Flash. The other, was making the Penguin one of the rogues Thomas kills. The Penguin was alive in the original Flashpoint Batman story by Azzarello and Risso and he was helping Thomas in his business with the casino Wayne owned. It's one of those errors that I wonder how it slipped through writer and editors. He's even in the cover of the first chapter of Knight of Vengeance wearing the same outfit he does in this issue!


Maybe he killed Penguin after their deal? 


PS: If you're a King fan don't sleep on his Superman Mini holy crap it's amazing

----------


## Inversed

I think if this wasn't the penultimate issue, this would be even more fantastic than it already is. Fornes art, Thomas' backstory, how it all comes together and how its structured, executed extremely well.

Just because of how much story still needs to be wrapped up, and we only have one, albeit slightly longer, issue left, worried there may not be enough time left to get out everything they need to without feeling rushed. If there were maybe a few more issues after this it might've worked better overall, but still just on its own its a truly great one-off.

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe he killed Penguin after their deal? 
> 
> 
> PS: If you're a King fan don't sleep on his Superman Mini holy crap it's amazing


No kidding. Up in the Sky is phenomenal, and I hope it's remembered alongside Superman Unchained as a really good work by the current Batman writer of the time.

----------


## millernumber1

King posted this today: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...25868380295169

"Ah, that’s awesome. And this issue plays a key role in the end of this story in Batman 85." - speaking of Batman Secret Files #1. The platinum kryptonite (I think that's what it was)!

----------


## charliehustle415

> I think if this wasn't the penultimate issue, this would be even more fantastic than it already is. Fornes art, Thomas' backstory, how it all comes together and how its structured, executed extremely well.
> 
> Just because of how much story still needs to be wrapped up, and we only have one, albeit slightly longer, issue left, worried there may not be enough time left to get out everything they need to without feeling rushed. If there were maybe a few more issues after this it might've worked better overall, but still just on its own its a truly great one-off.


This is my fear, I think it will leave us with a lot of dangling threads that may be picked up in Bat/Cat. I hope that we get an update on it's release date soon; I wish we still had double shipped King books because waiting another 16 - 18 months is unbearable I may just trade wait and do another re-read once they are released.




> King posted this today: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...25868380295169
> 
> "Ah, that’s awesome. And this issue plays a key role in the end of this story in Batman 85." - speaking of Batman Secret Files #1. The platinum kryptonite (I think that's what it was)!


I totally forgot about that and I didn't even think that was a canon thing that happened. I thought that was Bruce thinking about somehow getting powers. 

I wonder if it will somehow heal Gotham Girl and potentially Alfred similar to how Clark was healed after Death of Superman (it just takes a while, so we can have Alfred off the board).

----------


## Inversed

> King posted this today: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...25868380295169
> 
> "Ah, that’s awesome. And this issue plays a key role in the end of this story in Batman 85." - speaking of Batman Secret Files #1. The platinum kryptonite (I think that's what it was)!


Oh hey, just barely sneaking it in, but that means True Strength will finally be relevant!  :Stick Out Tongue:  Though I hope this won't be a case of him using it in order to win the fight, and that its used in a more interesting and clever way.




> This is my fear, I think it will leave us with a lot of dangling threads that may be picked up in Bat/Cat. I hope that we get an update on it's release date soon; I wish we still had double shipped King books because waiting another 16 - 18 months is unbearable I may just trade wait and do another re-read once they are released.


It does seem to me like all the main plot threads (the city, Gotham Girl, Bane, Thomas, Psycho Pirate, the family, etc.) will get resolved in the final issue, and Bat/Cat will be the thematic continuation/conclusion of the story, showing where Bruce's journey goes to next, and what it means for their relationship now.

I am disappointed we'll have to wait longer for the rest of the issues, but it is good that they're being allowed to take their time and don't have to rush to get it out at a certain time. Plus by structuring it like the standalone maxi series he has experience with and not as part of the long ongoing will probably mean it'll be paced alot better. Most of the arcs from this year do feel like they are a consequence of rushing to meet the deadlines, working around other projects, and last minute rewrites, so this may be the best approach.

----------


## Chubistian

> Maybe he killed Penguin after their deal? 
> 
> 
> PS: If you're a King fan don't sleep on his Superman Mini holy crap it's amazing


The problem is that Penguin was alongside Thomas in the beggining of Knights of Vengeance, which takes place when Catwoman is already in wheelchairs and here the murder of Penguin is way before Thomas even met Catwoman. I totally want to check Up in the Sky, but I'm waiting to see how it's going to be collected in Spain. 

If the platinium kryptonite is back, I think it will deal with Thomas being able to defeat the Batfamily, or at least it's what I would want. But it being a mechanism to help Gotham Girl works too

----------


## Chubistian

> This was very Grayson: Future's End. I really enjoyed it. I'm very worried, though, that because Thomas tells Bruce to marry Selina, he won't, and this all turns into "Batman can't change."
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, King isn't unique in relying on convoluted plots and alternate realities. Snyder's plots are very convoluted, and issue #49 goes into alternate realities quite a bit. Morrison is even more convoluted and the 666 future is vital to his plot.
> 
> 
> 
> I liked Thomas's motivation reveal here as well. And as I've been predicting Skeets as the culprit, Reverse Flash being the villain is a nice surprise.
> ...


Overall, I think that Bane doing such a convulted trap works as a contraposition of how simple his plan was in Knightfall (which actually was Bird's plan). I think there's something interesting in the idea that the greatest detective is defeated by chaos with no pattern while he tries to uncover something deeper that doesn't really exist.

I agree that it's better to have Reverse Flash as the answer to the mystery instead of Dr Manhattan and that it stays in a safe distance of Doomsday Clock and its trainwreck of a schedule 

I like that Tom King kinda foreshadowed Riddler's ability to deal with technology more advanced than that of Earth in I Am Bane, when Nygma dissabled security measures made in New Genesis. It fits with the mad genius hyper intelligent villain Scott Snyder "introduced" in his run. I think it makes the reveal that Riddler handled Skeets work

----------


## charliehustle415

> The problem is that Penguin was alongside Thomas in the beggining of Knights of Vengeance, which takes place when Catwoman is already in wheelchairs and here the murder of Penguin is way before Thomas even met Catwoman. I totally want to check Up in the Sky, but I'm waiting to see how it's going to be collected in Spain. 
> 
> If the platinium kryptonite is back, I think it will deal with Thomas being able to defeat the Batfamily, or at least it's what I would want. But it being a mechanism to help Gotham Girl works too


I totally forgot about Catwoman in a wheelchair; I guess so did King

----------


## millernumber1

> I totally forgot about Catwoman in a wheelchair; I guess so did King


Sometimes I think I should read Flashpoint and Flashpoint Batman. Then I remember...oh, yeah, I probably wouldn't enjoy them. So I don't.  :Smile:

----------


## Chubistian

> Sometimes I think I should read Flashpoint and Flashpoint Batman. Then I remember...oh, yeah, I probably wouldn't enjoy them. So I don't.


I don't like Flashpoint but I do like Knight of Vengeance. It depends how much you dislike Azzarello's writing. Personally, I think he's a mixed bag, but he has some works that I really love

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't like Flashpoint but I do like Knight of Vengeance. It depends how much you dislike Azzarello's writing. Personally, I think he's a mixed bag, but he has some works that I really love


I'm really not an Azz fan.

----------


## gregpersons

One thing I thought of this morning, though... it doesn't make sense that Thomas would know about the events prior to "The Button" since he was still in the Flashpoint timeline... but in his speech to Bane (the one that takes place during 50, ends with "How can I help?") -- he knew EVERYTHING about I Am Gotham, I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, and War of Jokes and Riddles

Oh well!

----------


## millernumber1

> One thing I thought of this morning, though... it doesn't make sense that Thomas would know about the events prior to "The Button" since he was still in the Flashpoint timeline... but in his speech to Bane (the one that takes place during 50, ends with "How can I help?") -- he knew EVERYTHING about I Am Gotham, I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, and War of Jokes and Riddles
> 
> Oh well!


I don't see how he wouldn't be able to find out - if he's Batman, he can use the internet, and interrogate people. And he had access to Bane's network, including Riddler, Joker, Skeets, etc.

----------


## charliehustle415

> One thing I thought of this morning, though... it doesn't make sense that Thomas would know about the events prior to "The Button" since he was still in the Flashpoint timeline... but in his speech to Bane (the one that takes place during 50, ends with "How can I help?") -- he knew EVERYTHING about I Am Gotham, I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, and War of Jokes and Riddles
> 
> Oh well!


Damn, I wonder if he knew simply by researching prior to Bane

----------


## gregpersons

> Damn, I wonder if he knew simply by researching prior to Bane


Possible. Maybe parallel versions of these events happened in the Flashpoint Universe, as well. But he also knows the secret behind War of Jokes and Riddles, that Joker/Riddler knew Bruce better than he knew himself... and that one is even tougher to explain away, since it was secret only Bruce/Joker/Riddler shared before he told Selina, plus Thomas's version of Joker was Martha and Thomas never had a "no kill" rule so it wouldn't have an identical equivalent in the alt timeline

Maybe Riddler gave it to him

----------


## Inversed

When you piece everything together, this is how Thomas' journey/goals seem to line up: 

After Thomas meets Bruce in The Button and tells him to give up the mantle to be happy, he gets dumped into his universe by Reverse Flash so that he can "suffer" by watching his son do what he doesn't want him to do.

He spends the next while watching him from the shadows, revealing to him that while Bruce is trying to be happy by marrying Selina, he has no intention of quitting being Batman. So then after seeing the Booster and Joker incidents, he realizes someone is messing with him, learns its Bane, and presumably this is when he starts to look into everything that's been going on lately between Bruce and Bane.

He then shows up to Bane under the presumption to partner with him to break Bruce, with his real intentions ultimately being to force Bruce to give up being Batman while Thomas remains as Gotham's new Batman instead.

----------


## lilyrose

I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!

Also, if what Thomas _wanted_ was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?

----------


## millernumber1

> When you piece everything together, this is how Thomas' journey/goals seem to line up: 
> 
> After Thomas meets Bruce in The Button and tells him to give up the mantle to be happy, he gets dumped into his universe by Reverse Flash so that he can "suffer" by watching his son do what he doesn't want him to do.
> 
> He spends the next while watching him from the shadows, revealing to him that while Bruce is trying to be happy by marrying Selina, he has no intention of quitting being Batman. So then after seeing the Booster and Joker incidents, he realizes someone is messing with him, learns its Bane, and presumably this is when he starts to look into everything that's been going on lately between Bruce and Bane.
> 
> He then shows up to Bane under the presumption to partner with him to break Bruce, with his real intentions ultimately being to force Bruce to give up being Batman while Thomas remains as Gotham's new Batman instead.


Nice layout. I'm curious if Thomas intended to be Batman of Gotham for the rest of his life in this universe.




> I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!
> 
> Also, if what Thomas _wanted_ was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?


I think Inversed makes the good point that Thomas doesn't want his son to be Batman - and he thought that Bruce wasn't going to quit.

----------


## Chubistian

A theory was released in Bleeding Cool's website that puts into table the possibility that Thomas might be from an alternate timeline that is not exactly Flashpoint. I think such a big twist isn't likely to be found in a double sized issue that has to resolve other plots and pave the way for the next writer, besides I disagree with part of the "evidence". I only think the Penguin one matters (which seems to be just an error), since the Croc one can be a simple reference and a previous encounter Thomas and Selina had with him way before Thomas killed Killer Croc. Anyways, I thought it was interesting to leave it here

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12...n-84-spoilers/

----------


## K. Jones

> When you piece everything together, this is how Thomas' journey/goals seem to line up: 
> 
> After Thomas meets Bruce in The Button and tells him to give up the mantle to be happy, he gets dumped into his universe by Reverse Flash so that he can "suffer" by watching his son do what he doesn't want him to do.
> 
> He spends the next while watching him from the shadows, revealing to him that while Bruce is trying to be happy by marrying Selina, he has no intention of quitting being Batman. So then after seeing the Booster and Joker incidents, he realizes someone is messing with him, learns its Bane, and presumably this is when he starts to look into everything that's been going on lately between Bruce and Bane.
> 
> He then shows up to Bane under the presumption to partner with him to break Bruce, with his real intentions ultimately being to force Bruce to give up being Batman while Thomas remains as Gotham's new Batman instead.


So I'm of the notion that when he finds Joker bleeding out after the ... best man rejection ... Joker's strange cagey answers are actually because this is Clayface. This is the moment when Batman abducted Joker (leading to Dark Nights: Metal) and left Clayface in disguise to infiltrate whatever was going on in Gotham's underworld. Thomas doesn't know Joker because in his timeline, Martha was the Joker, so he doesn't have the same instincts Batman would have about Clayface pretending to be Joker. Nor any real understanding of their weird Holmes/Moriarty understanding of one another.

Then again maybe he was aware of it and indeed Batman Gambit counting on it to get the one-up on Bane when the whole thing shook out. He needed Batman's mole to think that everyone bought the Joker ruse so Batman would be overconfident in his intelligence apparatus. But ignoring cross-Batman-gambits, I do think this is when Clayface is subbed out for Joker.

----------


## Chubistian

> So I'm of the notion that when he finds Joker bleeding out after the ... best man rejection ... Joker's strange cagey answers are actually because this is Clayface. This is the moment when Batman abducted Joker (leading to Dark Nights: Metal) and left Clayface in disguise to infiltrate whatever was going on in Gotham's underworld. Thomas doesn't know Joker because in his timeline, Martha was the Joker, so he doesn't have the same instincts Batman would have about Clayface pretending to be Joker. Nor any real understanding of their weird Holmes/Moriarty understanding of one another.
> 
> Then again maybe he was aware of it and indeed Batman Gambit counting on it to get the one-up on Bane when the whole thing shook out. He needed Batman's mole to think that everyone bought the Joker ruse so Batman would be overconfident in his intelligence apparatus. But ignoring cross-Batman-gambits, I do think this is when Clayface is subbed out for Joker.


I think Batman became aware of the complot against him much later in the run, when Penguin told him, and that he wasn't sure how big it was until he saw Arkham empty and use his communication language through blow in poor Tim. Besides, with Thomas and in DC Nation #0, Joker used the same phrase to describe who contacted him ("a banana"), which Clayface couldn't have heard so it would be weird that he used the same term if he was playing Joker when Thomas arrived at the church. And Selina and Bruce didn't know that Bane was after their marriage, so I don't think a mole was infiltrated in Bane's team so soon in the story

----------


## Coco Loco

> I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!
> 
> Also, if what Thomas _wanted_ was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?


He didn’t.  Thomas only approached Bane on the day of the wedding.

My first thought when reading this issue was that King was just repeating the formalistic style of the Grayson Futures End book - but in retrospect I think the structure added to the story’s impact.  Working backwards highlights very well not only the guiding principle behind everything Thomas did, but it shows very clearly how his actions have turned him into the bad guy.  He’s horrified when FP Martha kills Alfred - but eventually he does (or is party to) the exact same thing.  He allies himself with the very monsters he was supposed to be fighting.  And every step of the way it makes perfect sense to him - it’s only when you look back at the whole picture that you see how far off-course he’s gotten.  Having those reveals appear in reverse order increases their impact.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

Who would've thought living would be what breaks Thomas?  What is that saying, "You either die a hero of live long enough to see yourself become the villain?"  (I think its something like that.)  He feels everything he has done since being dumped in this world is justified because as he told Bane "I know what is best for the boy."  That's all he sees Bruce as, a rebellious child that didn't turn out the way he wanted him to.  Bruce won't give up.  He denied Thomas of the chance to bring back Martha and reunite the "family."  I really don't know how one more issue is going to wrap this up, but can't wait to see it.  

I don't know what the plans are to do with Thomas once 85 wraps up, but I do hope he sticks around in some way or another.  If we can have the Batman Who Laughs in this universe with no problems I don't see why not Flash Point Batman.

----------


## Chuck

Forgive me if I spoil anything but I wasnt sure how to post a reply with hidden text. Once again Tom King punks Batman as he stands there and lets an old man knock him on his butt with one punch. King is a hack and has no clue how to write Batman

----------


## millernumber1

> Forgive me if I spoil anything but I wasnt sure how to post a reply with hidden text. Once again Tom King punks Batman as he stands there and lets an old man knock him on his butt with one punch. King is a hack and has no clue how to write Batman


The problem is not that you're spoiling anything. It's that you didn't read the opening message of this thread. If you want to hate on King's run, there are threads every issue for that.

----------


## Chuck

> The problem is not that you're spoiling anything. It's that you didn't read the opening message of this thread. If you want to hate on King's run, there are threads every issue for that.


This is a thread titled King Batman run:Analysis and Enjoyment thread so I followed the analysis part which is that King is a terrible writer of Batman and you know what judging by Batman sales most fans agree with me

----------


## millernumber1

> This is a thread titled King Batman run:Analysis and Enjoyment thread so I followed the analysis part which is that King is a terrible writer of Batman and you know what judging by Batman sales most fans agree with me


Read the first post.

----------


## Chuck

> Read the first post.


 You mean the part where you said this?

"I don't intend this as a wholly appreciative thread, either"

----------


## millernumber1

> You mean the part where you said this?
> 
> "I don't intend this as a wholly appreciative thread, either"


Please stop contributing to this thread if you come here only to hate on the run, and refuse to read the entirety of the first post of the thread.

----------


## Fergus

> I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!
> 
> Also, if what Thomas _wanted_ was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?


Because like he said that was false. Bruce was manipulated into proposing remember. He wants Bruce to be happy which means that Bruce should be acting of his own free will, it has to be his decision. The irony of it all.

----------


## millernumber1

> Because like he said that was false. Bruce was manipulated into proposing remember. He wants Bruce to be happy which means that Bruce should be acting of his own free will, it has to be his decision. The irony of it all.


That's an excellent point.

----------


## Fergus

> Who would've thought living would be what breaks Thomas?  What is that saying, "You either die a hero of live long enough to see yourself become the villain?"  (I think its something like that.)  He feels everything he has done since being dumped in this world is justified because as he told Bane "I know what is best for the boy."  That's all he sees Bruce as, a rebellious child that didn't turn out the way he wanted him to.  Bruce won't give up.  He denied Thomas of the chance to bring back Martha and reunite the "family."  I really don't know how one more issue is going to wrap this up, but can't wait to see it.  
> 
> I don't know what the plans are to do with Thomas once 85 wraps up, but I do hope he sticks around in some way or another.  If we can have the Batman Who Laughs in this universe with no problems I don't see why not Flash Point Batman.


Funny how both Thomas and Selina keep calling him a boy. At least when Selina does it it's kinda cute.

----------


## millernumber1

> Funny how both Thomas and Selina keep calling him a boy. At least when Selina does it it's kinda cute.


Well, I think that them both using "boy" is part of the David Mazzucchelli point, that Batman as originally conceived was a boy's fantasy, rather than a man. And I hope that King is going to do something to progress that, and not just leave it that way.

----------


## Inversed

> Because like he said that was false. Bruce was manipulated into proposing remember. He wants Bruce to be happy which means that Bruce should be acting of his own free will, it has to be his decision. The irony of it all.


I don't think it being manipulated is the reason why he wanted to break it up, it was because Bruce was still planning to be Batman while married, and that's the thing Thomas wants more than ever to stop. Even in the issue he tells him to go off and marry Selina, but to throw off the cowl for good and leave the city to him.

It's the twisted, crazy sense of father knows best, that you need to punish your son, break his toys, and make him more miserable, so that he can be happy "the right way."

----------


## Chuck

> Please stop contributing to this thread if you come here only to hate on the run, and refuse to read the entirety of the first post of the thread.


It is my opinion on King's terrible run

----------


## millernumber1

> It is my opinion on King's terrible run


"read the entirety of the first post of the thread": "But on the whole, I think there should be a place for people to talk about the book which isn't just a bunch of "King is a hack" "I hate this" "A new low for this book" etc."

You came into the thread, posted exactly that, and are now surprised.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I don't think it being manipulated is the reason why he wanted to break it up, it was because Bruce was still planning to be Batman while married, and that's the thing Thomas wants more than ever to stop. Even in the issue he tells him to go off and marry Selina, but to throw off the cowl for good and leave the city to him.
> 
> It's the twisted, crazy sense of father knows best, that you need to punish your son, break his toys, and make him more miserable, so that he can be happy "the right way."


Take him down to the "studs" to rebuild him better is what is my rational for BatDad. 

I hope King ends Thomas real good; because he is the anthesis of Bruce. Thomas is so weak that on multiple occasions he breaks his principles because of the people he lost: first Bruce, second Martha, and lastly Selina. Yet, Bruce has lost everything on multiple occasions and never broke and I love that King is totally play that up especially with "I'm still here" 




> It is my opinion on King's terrible run




Go be an ass elsewhere, follow the thread rules.

----------


## millernumber1

> Take him down to the "studs" to rebuild him better is what is my rational for BatDad. 
> 
> I hope King ends Thomas real good; because he is the anthesis of Bruce. Thomas is so weak that on multiple occasions he breaks his principles because of the people he lost: first Bruce, second Martha, and lastly Selina. Yet, Bruce has lost everything on multiple occasions and never broke and I love that King is totally play that up especially with "I'm still here"


While I pretty much agree with your response, the only reason I'm trying to communicate with the negative posters right now is that with the end of the run coming, I want it to be as clear as possible that this is not the thread for fights about whether the run sucks or not. I'm hoping that the message is clear now, and people who hate the run will go to the weekly threads, or create their own thread. Hopefully we can avoid getting dragged into arguments with people who miss the OP.

I am very curious to see how BatDad goes out. I still think Nain Pit is the best, but it seems to be going in a different direction.

----------


## charliehustle415

> While I pretty much agree with your response, the only reason I'm trying to communicate with the negative posters right now is that with the end of the run coming, I want it to be as clear as possible that this is not the thread for fights about whether the run sucks or not. I'm hoping that the message is clear now, and people who hate the run will go to the weekly threads, or create their own thread. Hopefully we can avoid getting dragged into arguments with people who miss the OP.
> 
> I am very curious to see how BatDad goes out. I still think Nain Pit is the best, but it seems to be going in a different direction.


What other option is there other than death or getting zapped back before the heat death of the Flashpoint universe though?

----------


## Chubistian

> What other option is there other than death or getting zapped back before the heat death of the Flashpoint universe though?


I just don't want Thomas to follow a similar path to The Batman Who Laughs, where he becomes overexposed and I end up bored of him, or that he falls into the category of an irrelevant Bat-villain like what happened to Hush. I have liked the few times I've read something with the character (Knight of Vengeance, Flashpoint, despite not really enjoying the overall story, and the current Batman run), so I wouldn't want to become disenchanted with FP Batman

----------


## Fergus

> I don't think it being manipulated is the reason why he wanted to break it up, it was because Bruce was still planning to be Batman while married, and that's the thing Thomas wants more than ever to stop. Even in the issue he tells him to go off and marry Selina, but to throw off the cowl for good and leave the city to him.
> 
> It's the twisted, crazy sense of father knows best, that you need to punish your son, break his toys, and make him more miserable, so that he can be happy "the right way."


He called it a false love in this or something along those lines which to me could only be in reference to it being orchestrated by Bane. It was Bane decision or will not Bruce's. He wants Bruce to make the decision to embrace happiness of his own free will. 

I believe he wants Bruce to choose a Happy Batman free life with selina himself. That makes it 'real' and reduces the chances of Bruce going back to his old lifestyle.
so he's going to help him make him make that decision by punishing him, breaking his toys, and making him see how miserable being Batman is.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I just don't want Thomas to follow a similar path to The Batman Who Laughs, where he becomes overexposed and I end up bored of him, or that he falls into the category of an irrelevant Bat-villain like what happened to Hush. I have liked the few times I've read something with the character (Knight of Vengeance, Flashpoint, despite not really enjoying the overall story, and the current Batman run), so I wouldn't want to become disenchanted with FP Batman


Very good point; I was so interested in Batman Who Laughs in METAL, but now he is like the Joker himself. Like let's build his mystique a little before we start churning it out and for Hush Dini was the last writer that did anything good with him.

----------


## bob.schoonover

This is kind of tangential to the idea that Bruce was manipulated into proposing*: What happened in Arkham while Alfred was supposed to be monitoring Psycho Pirate's "healing" of Claire?  There are four basic possibilities for Claire that I see:

1. Claire was in on it from the beginning (including letting Psycho Pirate screw her up, having her parents killed, etc), so PP's healing in Arkham was merely part of the plot to restore her to her generally evil-ish self 

2. Claire is cured during I Am Bane, but Bane offers the opportunity to join him in return for the reveal in The Price, that her brother might be brought back

3. At some point between I Am Bane and The Wedding, Claire is re-manipulated by Psycho Pirate off screen

4. Alfred somehow failed in getting PP to heal Claire during I Am Bane.

I don't entirely like any of these (3 and 4 happening offscreen is poor storytelling, 2 happened during a non-King story, and 1 just makes me sad for liking Claire so much in the beginning).  Any other ideas?  

*Was Claire manipulating Bruce into proposing in 24 with their chat about happiness?  If not, it's hard to imagine that Bane did something to take Bruce over the top on proposing (rather than it being something he did on his own or something he chose to do because of interacting with his dad in The Button).

----------


## millernumber1

> This is kind of tangential to the idea that Bruce was manipulated into proposing*: What happened in Arkham while Alfred was supposed to be monitoring Psycho Pirate's "healing" of Claire?  There are four basic possibilities for Claire that I see:
> 
> 1. Claire was in on it from the beginning (including letting Psycho Pirate screw her up, having her parents killed, etc), so PP's healing in Arkham was merely part of the plot to restore her to her generally evil-ish self 
> 
> 2. Claire is cured during I Am Bane, but Bane offers the opportunity to join him in return for the reveal in The Price, that her brother might be brought back
> 
> 3. At some point between I Am Bane and The Wedding, Claire is re-manipulated by Psycho Pirate off screen
> 
> 4. Alfred somehow failed in getting PP to heal Claire during I Am Bane.
> ...


I think Claire was part of Bane's manipulation. I don't know if it was conscious on her part at that point or not. By 50, it's clearly conscious.

My own current interpretation is that Psycho Pirate only APPEARED to cure her - a variation of #4. He gave her a temporary fix.

Batman said he was going to destroy PP's mask after I Am Bane...but clearly, he either didn't, or destroyed a fake, or a new one was made. So I think what happened in I Am Bane is deeper than meets the eye.

----------


## Scott Taylor

Great issue, great art. Nice to see all the pieces spelled out. The Penguin thing was odd but so what. Not exactly the point that it was the Penguin - the point was Thomas was going around killing bad guys in cold blood, Judge Dredd style. 

The whole premise of him coming to this universe was good, I feel. But what he did once he got here didn't, to me, fit well with his MO. But then again, had he done what he does then there wouldn't be any Batman villains left alive!

Part of me is hoping for a fight next issue, as seems destined to happen. But I'd rather have them talk this out and have Bruce convincingly lay out why his way is the best way. We've seen Bruce toy with the "Thomas Way" before but he's never really done it.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

King just posted some art from Batman 85:

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...02769825734656

*spoilers:*
Looks like he got to keep his promise of ending the run with Bats and Kite-Man in a bar...
*end of spoilers*

----------


## millernumber1

> King just posted some art from Batman 85:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...02769825734656
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Looks like he got to keep his promise of ending the run with Bats and Kite-Man in a bar...
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Hell Yeah!!
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Chubistian

> King just posted some art from Batman 85:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...02769825734656
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Looks like he got to keep his promise of ending the run with Bats and Kite-Man in a bar...
> *end of spoilers*


That's awesome. Hype!

----------


## charliehustle415

This reminds me, is there a significance for that one Football Player always being name dropped?

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> This reminds me, is there a significance for that one Football Player always being name dropped?


He's named after one of King's real life friends who also happens to do a Batman podcast called Gotham by Geeks.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> King just posted some art from Batman 85:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...02769825734656
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Looks like he got to keep his promise of ending the run with Bats and Kite-Man in a bar...
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
 Hold on, he said Batman and Kiteman.  That is clearly Bruce Wayne and Charles Brown.  Still cool. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## millernumber1

> He's named after one of King's real life friends who also happens to do a Batman podcast called Gotham by Geeks.


Oh, I love that podcast when they do interviews with King. They have a nice chemistry.

----------


## TheJudge95

> My first thought when reading this issue was that King was just repeating the formalistic style of the Grayson Futures End book - but in retrospect I think the structure added to the story’s impact.  Working backwards highlights very well not only the guiding principle behind everything Thomas did, but it shows very clearly how his actions have turned him into the bad guy.  He’s horrified when FP Martha kills Alfred - but eventually he does (or is party to) the exact same thing.  He allies himself with the very monsters he was supposed to be fighting.  And every step of the way it makes perfect sense to him - it’s only when you look back at the whole picture that you see how far off-course he’s gotten.  Having those reveals appear in reverse order increases their impact.


Just wanted to say, great comment. I think Inversed's recap was also correct. As far as Gotham Girl's complicity, I think she's been under the influence of Psycho Pirate at least as far back as The Price (she was really zany in that), and The Price suggests Bane got to her after I am Bane ("After my brother died and Batman left me..."). The fact that Bane had to bribe her with resurrecting her brother suggests that she wasn't under his or Psycho Pirate's control at that point. So I think her conversation with Bats in #24 is genuine and not part of the larger manipulation. 

TLDR; option #2 and #3.

----------


## Rich Johnston

> Forgive me if I spoil anything but I wasnt sure how to post a reply with hidden text. Once again Tom King punks Batman as he stands there and lets an old man knock him on his butt with one punch. King is a hack and has no clue how to write Batman


The old man was also Batman. Batman still won.

----------


## DragonPiece

really makes me sad  King's batcat run isn't starting next month, I know it's for Clay to have time draw the entire series but now we won't see a conclusion to the story till 2021.

----------


## millernumber1

> really makes me sad  King's batcat run isn't starting next month, I know it's for Clat to have time draw the entire series but now we won't say a conclusion to the story till 2021.


Agreed. I really just want to keep reading this Batman - and it's gonna be extra hard now that it's monthly. 4 years of twice a month does something to your expectations!

----------


## Katana500

I'm a wee bit nervous that the last issue has so many plot threads to tie up it might not manage - Bat/Cat, Thomas, Gotham Girl and the Family plus Kite man! I have faith in King though.

Speaking of Gotham Girl - I'm still super curious about what her fate is going to be? Do you think her story might continue as a sub plot in Batman/Catwoman?

----------


## Chubistian

> I'm a wee bit nervous that the last issue has so many plot threads to tie up it might not manage - Bat/Cat, Thomas, Gotham Girl and the Family plus Kite man! I have faith in King though.
> 
> Speaking of Gotham Girl - I'm still super curious about what her fate is going to be? Do you think her story might continue as a sub plot in Batman/Catwoman?


I think her story will continue in Batman/Catwoman. I don't know if King wants to let the character roam free after his run is over or if he will kill her, but I'm more inclined to the first option. He was glad that Viv Vision found her way in other titles, so I don't think he is misgiving towards editorial when it comes to his original characters, contrary to the impression I have about Frank Miller and Elektra back in the 80s. I think King still has some plans for Gotham Girl in the limited series he will write and that her story won't be solved in issue #85, that I think will be dedicated mostly to the conflict between Thomas and Bruce

----------


## DragonPiece

I think Gotham girl is gonna fade into obscurity honestly, she doesn’t serve much purpose and Gotham doesn’t need a actual super hero character.

----------


## Chubistian

> I think Gotham girl is gonna fade into obscurity honestly, she doesn’t serve much purpose and Gotham doesn’t need a actual super hero character.


That certainly can be her destiny. I don't know if DC or other writers have plans for her, but still I think Tom King will let her live, independent if in the years to come she fulfills a role in the Batfamily or if she follows the path characters like Talon did

----------


## Frostbite883

> I'm a wee bit nervous that the last issue has so many plot threads to tie up it might not manage


But, overall, you do acknowledge someone like King (giving what he had written so far) knows what he's doing (not like he's some rookie comic writer fresh off the boat here).

----------


## gregpersons

> That certainly can be her destiny. I don't know if DC or other writers have plans for her, but still I think Tom King will let her live, independent if in the years to come she fulfills a role in the Batfamily or if she follows the path characters like Talon did


Knowing DC, her likeliest fate is a cameo appearance in the next Crisis to die and add to the body count.

----------


## Katana500

> Knowing DC, her likeliest fate is a cameo appearance in the next Crisis to die and add to the body count.


This is sad times!  I think I'm one of like 10 gotham girl fans in existence. I hope she doesnt die! 

I want to read more about her!

----------


## Scott Taylor

Will Kite Man become a permanent part of the rogue's gallery? I'd like to think he will

----------


## charliehustle415

> I think Gotham girl is gonna fade into obscurity honestly, she doesn’t serve much purpose and Gotham doesn’t need a actual super hero character.


Every Batman writer has a pet character that disappears; any one remember Bluebird?

----------


## millernumber1

> Every Batman writer has a pet character that disappears; any one remember Bluebird?


I mean, I do, but Tynion is one of my favorite writers.  :Smile:  I also remember Gunhawk and Gunbunny from the Dixon Tec era, Sasha Bordeaux from the Rucka run, and a few others. Did Denny O'Neil have one?

----------


## charliehustle415

> I mean, I do, but Tynion is one of my favorite writers.  I also remember Gunhawk and Gunbunny from the Dixon Tec era, Sasha Bordeaux from the Rucka run, and a few others. Did Denny O'Neil have one?


Damn, with the deep cuts; brings back memories

----------


## millernumber1

> Damn, with the deep cuts; brings back memories


Isn't that what we love about comics, though? Remembering and reading new stuff that becomes new memories?  :Smile:  It's absolutely one of the things I adore about King's run - those pages where he just FILLS them with references that enrich the story he's telling.

----------


## millernumber1

So, we have some pics out from Mikel Janin at Brazil Comic Con and Tom King on Twitter. Please note that these images are probably pretty big spoilers, but they're also pretty exciting, I think.



Looks like we're getting Batman and Kite Man, or Bruce and Chuck, at Porkys after all. I like that.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12...atman-85-ccxp/

There's a lot of Bat/Cat scenes in these images, and it looks positive, to me, not super depressing like a Hush ending, so I'm still hopeful.

----------


## Westbats

> Every Batman writer has a pet character that disappears; any one remember Bluebird?


I would love to have her come back, even if it meant going back to a civilian role, it's been years since she was last in a comic.

----------


## Fergus

> Every Batman writer has a pet character that disappears; any one remember Bluebird?


Yes she's on the YJ tv show and she was in rebirth Tec

----------


## Fergus

> I would love to have her come back, even if it meant going back to a civilian role, it's been years since she was last in a comic.


She should have been brought in to fill in for Alfred. Not the housekeeping duties that can be covered by Selina but the bat Cave ops. It's right up her street. There was no need to drag old man Fox in after his long days running WE. 

Bruce likes to work kids/young teens and the elderly it seems

----------


## Inversed

> So, we have some pics out from Mikel Janin at Brazil Comic Con and Tom King on Twitter. Please note that these images are probably pretty big spoilers, but they're also pretty exciting, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we're getting Batman and Kite Man, or Bruce and Chuck, at Porkys after all. I like that.


Janin's Chuck in that picture just looks exactly like his version of Riddler and it's really distracting for me lol




> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12...atman-85-ccxp/
> 
> There's a lot of Bat/Cat scenes in these images, and it looks positive, to me, not super depressing like a Hush ending, so I'm still hopeful.


Based on these brief images does look like we'll be getting a decent amount of Bat/Cat in the issue, though I wonder how they're gonna end it off. Will there be some semblance of a conclusion demonstrating where they'll be going in the future that would then be followed up in Bat/Cat, or will they keep it mostly ambiguous to be resolved later in Bat/Cat? I am hoping we get something related to the former.

----------


## millernumber1

> Janin's Chuck in that picture just looks exactly like his version of Riddler and it's really distracting for me lol
> 
> 
> 
> Based on these brief images does look like we'll be getting a decent amount of Bat/Cat in the issue, though I wonder how they're gonna end it off. Will there be some semblance of a conclusion demonstrating where they'll be going in the future that would then be followed up in Bat/Cat, or will they keep it mostly ambiguous to be resolved later in Bat/Cat? I am hoping we get something related to the former.


Kite Man does have a weird similarity to the Riddler there.  :Smile: 

I think, based on the images, that we'll have a more positive spin than, say, Hush, but no guarantees.

----------


## Chubistian

New interview! I like the analysis King does over Batman, Bane, Thomas and Catwoman. Also, some interesting information about FP Batman and his importance to the story


https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...rview-spoilers

----------


## millernumber1

> New interview! I like the analysis King does over Batman, Bane, Thomas and Catwoman. Also, some interesting information about FP Batman and his importance to the story
> 
> 
> https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...rview-spoilers


Very interesting. The idea that Thomas is a relatively newer addition to the story does make some sense - I wonder when he became so important? It does feel like a relatively organic development of what King was trying to say about fathers, sons, growing up, etc.

I am a bit concerned about how he's talking about his next set of projects - "how to deal with the pernicious garbage around us" - I worry it'll become strident and polemical, rather than thoughtful, nuanced, and able to be enjoyed by a wide audience.

----------


## Scott Taylor

Thats something I hadn't considered before - the difference between Batman's reaction to losing his parents versus his reaction to losing Alfred. Overall, it shows how far he has come away from his quest for vengeance and how mature he has become as Batman.

----------


## bob.schoonover

> Very interesting. The idea that Thomas is a relatively newer addition to the story does make some sense - I wonder when he became so important? It does feel like a relatively organic development of what King was trying to say about fathers, sons, growing up, etc.
> 
> I am a bit concerned about how he's talking about his next set of projects - "how to deal with the pernicious garbage around us" - I worry it'll become strident and polemical, rather than thoughtful, nuanced, and able to be enjoyed by a wide audience.


Depends on how allegorical/metaphorical it is - if it's Bat/Cat specifically calling out common criticisms of the run in the course of it, that'd be incredibly bad, but if it's more just a hopeful "here's how we rise above the muck and not worry about what society thinks of us," then it'll probably be pretty great (I think King is 5 for 6 so far on comic runs*, so he definitely gets the benefit of the doubt).  

*I wonder about Heroes in Crisis every now and then - how much changed behind the scenes (if at all) because of the Bleeding Cool leak, Azzarello no longer doing Suicide Squad, etc. to change the story trajectory.  It clearly didn't end up as the murder mystery/whodunnit that was originally touted

----------


## charliehustle415

> Depends on how allegorical/metaphorical it is - if it's Bat/Cat specifically calling out common criticisms of the run in the course of it, that'd be incredibly bad, but if it's more just a hopeful "here's how we rise above the muck and not worry about what society thinks of us," then it'll probably be pretty great (I think King is 5 for 6 so far on comic runs*, so he definitely gets the benefit of the doubt).  
> 
> *I wonder about Heroes in Crisis every now and then - how much changed behind the scenes (if at all) because of the Bleeding Cool leak, Azzarello no longer doing Suicide Squad, etc. to change the story trajectory.  It clearly didn't end up as the murder mystery/whodunnit that was originally touted


What was the BleedingCool leak?

----------


## bob.schoonover

> What was the BleedingCool leak?


According to BC, HiC would open with what appeared to be Wally West gunning down all the heroes at Sanctuary. It would later be revealed to be Zoom that did it, but Wally would go into hiding on the Suicide Squad. That's what I remember of it,  at least

----------


## Inversed

> New interview! I like the analysis King does over Batman, Bane, Thomas and Catwoman. Also, some interesting information about FP Batman and his importance to the story
> 
> 
> https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...rview-spoilers


I really like the idea of how King structures each of his runs like a thematic trilogy.
Vision, The Sheriff Of Babylon, and The Omega Men
Mister Miracle, Heroes In Crisis, and Batman
And now Batman/Catwoman, Strange Adventure, and *Mystery Project*




> Depends on how allegorical/metaphorical it is - if it's Bat/Cat specifically calling out common criticisms of the run in the course of it, that'd be incredibly bad, but if it's more just a hopeful "here's how we rise above the muck and not worry about what society thinks of us," then it'll probably be pretty great (I think King is 5 for 6 so far on comic runs*, so he definitely gets the benefit of the doubt).  
> 
> *I wonder about Heroes in Crisis every now and then - how much changed behind the scenes (if at all) because of the Bleeding Cool leak, Azzarello no longer doing Suicide Squad, etc. to change the story trajectory.  It clearly didn't end up as the murder mystery/whodunnit that was originally touted


I still really wanna know as well what went on regarding HiC, since that's also to me his biggest misstep. I think the most he's come out and said was that he was told by the editors to use Wally, Booster, and Harley and had to work around that, but you're right that even during the story, it feels like it's trying to do two different things at once, and switches trajectory suddenly as well.

----------


## gregpersons

Last year I got married only a month after my father passed away. King's run has definitely connected with me... I wouldn't have minded a more hopeful journey rather than seeing Batman get punched in the balls for 25 straight issues, but it's definitely been an experience.

----------


## gregpersons

> I am a bit concerned about how he's talking about his next set of projects - "how to deal with the pernicious garbage around us" - I worry it'll become strident and polemical, rather than thoughtful, nuanced, and able to be enjoyed by a wide audience.


I interpreted this as his next works will be more hopeful and show the resilience more than the break down.

----------


## millernumber1

> Last year I got married only a month after my father passed away. King's run has definitely connected with me... I wouldn't have minded a more hopeful journey rather than seeing Batman get punched in the balls for 25 straight issues, but it's definitely been an experience.


Congratulations and condolences. I'm glad this run has connected with you - it has with me as well, and I've really appreciated your contributions to the conversation, and hope you will continue with us for the next leg!




> I interpreted this as his next works will be more hopeful and show the resilience more than the break down.


I just worry that he'll go the Greg Rucka route, writing only for people who agree with him. I hope not, but I worry.

----------


## gregpersons

> Congratulations and condolences. I'm glad this run has connected with you - it has with me as well, and I've really appreciated your contributions to the conversation, and hope you will continue with us for the next leg!


Thank you. It's been fun. Glad to find the conversation.




> I just worry that he'll go the Greg Rucka route, writing only for people who agree with him. I hope not, but I worry.


I guess I don't understand.

----------


## charliehustle415

> According to BC, HiC would open with what appeared to be Wally West gunning down all the heroes at Sanctuary. It would later be revealed to be Zoom that did it, but Wally would go into hiding on the Suicide Squad. That's what I remember of it,  at least


That really would have connected with Zoom being the big bad for his Batman run

----------


## millernumber1

> I guess I don't understand.


Sorry for the confusion - I mean I hope that King doesn't decide that he needs to make Bat/Cat a topical political statement.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Sorry for the confusion - I mean I hope that King doesn't decide that he needs to make Bat/Cat a topical political statement.


Hopefully he takes a measured approach and doesn't 1) date his work and 2) lose the _point_ of his story. 

Rucka's initial WW run pre52 was amazing because he wasn't reacting to others within the story, but Rebirth era not so much and you can see it in the story

----------


## millernumber1

> Hopefully he takes a measured approach and doesn't 1) date his work and 2) lose the _point_ of his story. 
> 
> Rucka's initial WW run pre52 was amazing because he wasn't reacting to others within the story, but Rebirth era not so much and you can see it in the story


Yeah, that's what I'm worried about - that it'll become about something different and dated, instead of something timeless and accessible by more than just people who agree with him.

I actually love both of Rucka's WW runs, but I was really disappointed by how narrow his Lois Lane has been.

----------


## Katana500

millernumber1 will you make an enjoyment/analysis thread for Tynions run aswell? Because its nice having somewhere positive to talk about the new issues when they come out!!

----------


## millernumber1

> millernumber1 will you make an enjoyment/analysis thread for Tynions run aswell? Because its nice having somewhere positive to talk about the new issues when they come out!!


I dunno - do you think the normal discussion threads will be really negative? The only reason I made this thread was because it was impossible to have any kind of discussion without constant negativity. If that becomes the case, I definitely will.

----------


## David Walton

Question that's slightly off topic, but I think it's relevant:

I feel like post-*Knightfall*, nearly every major Batman writer has a story in mind where they break Bruce (in different ways, mind you) and then rebuild him so that he's a well-adjusted human being. Most of the major events have promised to get Bruce back to a contemporary take on the Bronze Age, where he's incredibly driven but still capable of healthy relationships as well as having something of a civilian life. *Knightsend* concluded on a hopeful note where Bruce took the mantle of the Bat back from Jean Paul Valley by 'stepping into the light,' both figuratively and literally. *Prodigal* was Bruce's attempt to heal his fractured relationship with Dick after choosing Jean Paul Valley as his successor, and post-*Troika* Bruce tried to regain Tim's confidence. 

*Contagion*/*Cataclysm*/*No-Man's Land* achieves the same effect on a larger scale, with Gotham City falling to a series of natural disasters and being abandoned by the federal government before a period of growth and renewal. 

After that there's *Bruce Wayne: Murderer* and *Bruce Wayne: Fugitive*, where Bruce almost wholly abandons his civilian life and pushes away his closest allies. By the story's end, he realizes his mistake and how his enemies exploited his isolation, and he vows to rebuild his relationships again. 

It seems like whenever Bruce is set up as a more balanced, healthy figure the creative team that did so leaves and the next one takes it as an opportunity to deconstruct the previous team's work on that front. You could argue that's just the nature of a dramatic serialized story. But it's also seemed to me several times like DC was initially sincere in attempting to push a status quo where Bruce is a mature, well-adjusted human being, but it never stuck. 

It seems to me like King is moving Bruce in that direction again, helping him to realize that he can balance his life's work and family, and this will actually make him better at his mission. The real question is, if King does get Bruce to that point, will he get an opportunity to show us what that kind of Bruce Wayne looks like, or will that be the conclusion of his Bat/Cat run?  

And could King be the one to make a character change like that stick?

----------


## charliehustle415

> Question that's slightly off topic, but I think it's relevant:
> 
> I feel like post-*Knightfall*, nearly every major Batman writer has a story in mind where they break Bruce (in different ways, mind you) and then rebuild him so that he's a well-adjusted human being. Most of the major events have promised to get Bruce back to a contemporary take on the Bronze Age, where he's incredibly driven but still capable of healthy relationships as well as having something of a civilian life. *Knightsend* concluded on a hopeful note where Bruce took the mantle of the Bat back from Jean Paul Valley by 'stepping into the light,' both figuratively and literally. *Prodigal* was Bruce's attempt to heal his fractured relationship with Dick after choosing Jean Paul Valley as his successor, and post-*Troika* Bruce tried to regain Tim's confidence. 
> 
> *Contagion*/*Cataclysm*/*No-Man's Land* achieves the same effect on a larger scale, with Gotham City falling to a series of natural disasters and being abandoned by the federal government before a period of growth and renewal. 
> 
> After that there's *Bruce Wayne: Murderer* and *Bruce Wayne: Fugitive*, where Bruce almost wholly abandons his civilian life and pushes away his closest allies. By the story's end, he realizes his mistake and how his enemies exploited his isolation, and he vows to rebuild his relationships again. 
> 
> It seems like whenever Bruce is set up as a more balanced, healthy figure the creative team that did so leaves and the next one takes it as an opportunity to deconstruct the previous team's work on that front. You could argue that's just the nature of a dramatic serialized story. But it's also seemed to me several times like DC was initially sincere in attempting to push a status quo where Bruce is a mature, well-adjusted human being, but it never stuck. 
> ...


This is the nature of corporate superhero comics; the last writer that had Bruce as a Bronze Age Hero was Morrison. However, the New 52 completely scuttled his characterization and Bruce has slowly been coming back to that status quo. King may be moving that way, but his Bruce is still very melodramatic. 

Morrison's Bruce was a loving man and really good humored; for example, Bruce used to troll online forums with conspiracy theories about Batman & Bruce Wayne to throw off the scent of their relationship, that juxtaposed with King's suicidal Bruce means he still has a long way to go.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Question that's slightly off topic, but I think it's relevant:
> 
> I feel like post-*Knightfall*, nearly every major Batman writer has a story in mind where they break Bruce (in different ways, mind you) and then rebuild him so that he's a well-adjusted human being.
> […]


Yesterday I "read" Knightfall and I had your same feelings.





> […]
> It seems like whenever Bruce is set up as a more balanced, healthy figure the creative team that did so leaves and the next one takes it as an opportunity to deconstruct the previous team's work on that front.
> […]


I think we should talk about destruction of the previous team's works and of the character.





> […]
> It seems to me like King is moving Bruce in that direction again, helping him to realize that he can balance his life's work and family, and this will actually make him better at his mission. The real question is, if King does get Bruce to that point, will he get an opportunity to show us what that kind of Bruce Wayne looks like, or will that be the conclusion of his Bat/Cat run?  
> 
> And could King be the one to make a character change like that stick?


King said Batman/Catwoman will be the conclusion of his Batman run, but how can he end his run after the start of the Tynion's run? Anyway if King's purpose was make Bruce Wayne a more balanced character, he has choosen the worst way to do: destroying the character (another time) and his family.

----------


## David Walton

> This is the nature of corporate superhero comics; the last writer that had Bruce as a Bronze Age Hero was Morrison. However, the New 52 completely scuttled his characterization and Bruce has slowly been coming back to that status quo. King may be moving that way, but his Bruce is still very melodramatic.


To a certain extent, sure, it's corporate superhero comics--but so were the various Silver and Bronze Age takes on Batman. There's no logical reason why a less obsessive Batman couldn't take hold again, if that's what creative teams truly want. And sometimes it seems like they do very much want that, but for whatever reason, it just never sticks. It could be that every writer wants the opportunity to deconstruct obsessive Batman in their own way. 




> Morrison's Bruce was a loving man and really good humored; for example, Bruce used to troll online forums with conspiracy theories about Batman & Bruce Wayne to throw off the scent of their relationship, that juxtaposed with King's suicidal Bruce means he still has a long way to go.


I do think Morrison's Batman was generally better-humored, though BATMAN, INC. was closer to end of his vision for the character. So he was at a different point there than when he began.

----------


## millernumber1

> Question that's slightly off topic, but I think it's relevant:
> 
> I feel like post-*Knightfall*, nearly every major Batman writer has a story in mind where they break Bruce (in different ways, mind you) and then rebuild him so that he's a well-adjusted human being. Most of the major events have promised to get Bruce back to a contemporary take on the Bronze Age, where he's incredibly driven but still capable of healthy relationships as well as having something of a civilian life. *Knightsend* concluded on a hopeful note where Bruce took the mantle of the Bat back from Jean Paul Valley by 'stepping into the light,' both figuratively and literally. *Prodigal* was Bruce's attempt to heal his fractured relationship with Dick after choosing Jean Paul Valley as his successor, and post-*Troika* Bruce tried to regain Tim's confidence. 
> 
> *Contagion*/*Cataclysm*/*No-Man's Land* achieves the same effect on a larger scale, with Gotham City falling to a series of natural disasters and being abandoned by the federal government before a period of growth and renewal. 
> 
> After that there's *Bruce Wayne: Murderer* and *Bruce Wayne: Fugitive*, where Bruce almost wholly abandons his civilian life and pushes away his closest allies. By the story's end, he realizes his mistake and how his enemies exploited his isolation, and he vows to rebuild his relationships again. 
> 
> It seems like whenever Bruce is set up as a more balanced, healthy figure the creative team that did so leaves and the next one takes it as an opportunity to deconstruct the previous team's work on that front. You could argue that's just the nature of a dramatic serialized story. But it's also seemed to me several times like DC was initially sincere in attempting to push a status quo where Bruce is a mature, well-adjusted human being, but it never stuck. 
> ...


That's a fascinating question. And part of the problem of Batman - because there are always at least two other major comics being published that are expected to be important at all times (Batman and Detective), so any story, even by a bestselling writer, is going to be working uphill. Just look at how Scott Snyder's characterization of Batman was kind of overwritten by King and Tynion when he was doing All Star Batman - that comic sold a lot, but it didn't seem to really impact the status quo or arcs of the other writers.

----------


## David Walton

> Yesterday I "read" Knightfall and I had your same feelings.


I feel like Knightfall is the Batman franchise's "Born Again"--and that's not intended as a criticism, just an observation. We've gotten a lot of great comics driven by that model.




> I think we should talk about destruction of the previous team's works and of the character.
> 
> King said Batman/Catwoman will be the conclusion of his Batman run, but how can he end his run after the start of the Tynion's run? Anyway if King's purpose was make Bruce Wayne a more balanced character, he has choosen the worst way to do: destroying the character (another time) and his family.


It's a good question. Tynion has said that Bruce Wayne will be a focal point of his work, so maybe that will be a direct result of Bruce's character growth in King's run.

----------


## millernumber1

> I feel like Knightfall is the Batman franchise's "Born Again"--and that's not intended as a criticism, just an observation. We've gotten a lot of great comics driven by that model.
> 
> It's a good question. Tynion has said that Bruce Wayne will be a focal point of his work, so maybe that will be a direct result of Bruce's character growth in King's run.


Could you elaborate a bit on how Knightfall is Born Again for Batman? I know you mentioned how it created a pattern of "break Batman down and build him back up again" - is that what you mean?

Tynion's default Batman is a lot more well adjusted than either Snyder or King's Batman - witness how he often writes Batman hugging his partners. So I think it might be hard to make a conclusive argument that he's changing his characterization. The things we know from his newsletter are that Bruce is cut off from his past with the death of Alfred, so that will be an interesting twist, I think.

----------


## David Walton

> That's a fascinating question. And part of the problem of Batman - because there are always at least two other major comics being published that are expected to be important at all times (Batman and Detective), so any story, even by a bestselling writer, is going to be working uphill. Just look at how Scott Snyder's characterization of Batman was kind of overwritten by King and Tynion when he was doing All Star Batman - that comic sold a lot, but it didn't seem to really impact the status quo or arcs of the other writers.


Very true. 

I also think that, for a variety of reasons, the 80s characterization of major characters tends to stick in a way that others don't. When it comes to escaping the potentially oppressive influence of *Year One* and *The Dark Knight Returns*, the only way out is through--which, in turn, only increases their perceived influence. Because even if you want a more healthy, well-adjusted Bruce Wayne, you have to explain how he gets there.

----------


## Scott Taylor

There is this thing that happens when a parental figure dies where the first born assumes their mantle. Its seen in films such as Lion King, and dozens of other forms of media and literature. And its for certain a real-life happening. I've seen people transform in subtle ways after their mom or dad passes. 

So for Alfred's death, I am hoping we see some of this happen. Batman won't become his own Alfred, thats not what I am saying, but Alfred served as a check and balance on Batman's obsessiveness. So Alfred's death would help the maturity stick in this case. In a similar way that Aunt May's absence help's Spider-Man to mature - we saw that in the books within the past few years, where he felt less like a man-child as Aunt May got married and developed a life of her own. 

But "stick"? Sorry, I'm not seeing anything permanent coming out of King's run. Too many writers love to write Alfred and Batman together to allow them to be apart for long. And Alfred's return will necessitate a bit of immaturity on Batman's part. I'll just be happy if Bat-Dad goes away permanently after this run - really thinking the big heads at DC have other plans for him, though.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> […]
> So Alfred's death would help the maturity stick in this case. In a similar way that Aunt May's absence help's Spider-Man to mature
> […]


I could agree with you, if Bruce Wayne were a young man like Peter Parker, but since the very first issue he is a grown up man, a man who ended his own journey toward the maturity. So (in my humble opinion) if the Bruce Wayne of today need to become the mature man he already was during the golden, the silver and the bronze age, then I think something incredibly wrong happened with the modern Batman's writers.
Obviously I don't criticize your opinion, on the contrary I'm using your opinion to criticize habit to describe Bruce Wayne like a men always on the edge of a PTSD.




> […]
> Sorry, I'm not seeing anything permanent coming out of King's run. Too many writers love to write Alfred and Batman together to allow them to be apart for long.


I agree.




> And Alfred's return will necessitate a bit of immaturity on Batman's part. I'll just be happy if Bat-Dad goes away permanently after this run - really thinking the big heads at DC have other plans for him, though.


I don't agree: like I said during the past ages Bruce Wayne wasn't an immature man at all and yet he had always Alfred on his side.

----------


## charliehustle415

> To a certain extent, sure, it's corporate superhero comics--but so were the various Silver and Bronze Age takes on Batman. There's no logical reason why a less obsessive Batman couldn't take hold again, if that's what creative teams truly want. And sometimes it seems like they do very much want that, but for whatever reason, it just never sticks. It could be that every writer wants the opportunity to deconstruct obsessive Batman in their own way. 
> 
> 
> 
> I do think Morrison's Batman was generally better-humored, though BATMAN, INC. was closer to end of his vision for the character. So he was at a different point there than when he began.


Ah, I mean returning the character to a popular status quo; however, I get your point Bruce was at the end of Morrison's run but even he had to return Bruce back to the popular status quo. 

King's Bruce has not shown any growth, he's always on the backfoot even though he has the qualities of Batgod Batman. Which is weird because King's Batman run is literally like night and day. Bruce is a broken hollow man, but his Batman is at his mythic height. Take for example the I am Suicide arc, Batman went through like 100 soldiers single handedly but Bruce himself is so fallible that he constantly asks Alfred for validation like in the Batman Secret Files issue: "Am I Enough?"

----------


## Scott Taylor

> I could agree with you, if Bruce Wayne were a young man like Peter Parker, but since the very first issue he is a grown up man, a man who ended his own journey toward the maturity. So (in my humble opinion) if the Bruce Wayne of today need to become the mature man he already was during the golden, the silver and the bronze age, then I think something incredibly wrong happened with the modern Batman's writers.
> Obviously I don't criticize your opinion, on the contrary I'm using your opinion to criticize habit to describe Bruce Wayne like a men always on the edge of a PTSD.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> 
> I don't agree: like I said during the past ages Bruce Wayne wasn't an immature man at all and yet he had always Alfred on his side.


Anyone can become more mature through passing through various life events. It should not be read as "they were immature before" just because that happens. Batman being dependent on Alfred is less mature than him not depending on Alfred.

----------


## David Walton

> Could you elaborate a bit on how Knightfall is Born Again for Batman? I know you mentioned how it created a pattern of "break Batman down and build him back up again" - is that what you mean?


Pretty much, yes. Every serialized protagonist falls in and out of certain cycles, but I think the influence and impact of *Born Again* and *Knightfall* is more significant than other comparable stories, in terms of how pervasive the breaking/rebirth cycle became as a result.

----------


## millernumber1

> Pretty much, yes. Every serialized protagonist falls in and out of certain cycles, but I think the influence and impact of *Born Again* and *Knightfall* is more significant than other comparable stories, in terms of how pervasive the breaking/rebirth cycle became as a result.


Hmm. Interesting. I'm not completely convinced that's not just a fairly common storytelling pattern for a knight or heroic figure. But these chicken or egg narrative questions are likely not completely solveable  :Smile:

----------


## David Walton

> Ah, I mean returning the character to a popular status quo; however, I get your point Bruce was at the end of Morrison's run but even he had to return Bruce back to the popular status quo. 
> 
> King's Bruce has not shown any growth, he's always on the backfoot even though he has the qualities of Batgod Batman. Which is weird because King's Batman run is literally like night and day. Bruce is a broken hollow man, but his Batman is at his mythic height. Take for example the I am Suicide arc, Batman went through like 100 soldiers single handedly but Bruce himself is so fallible that he constantly asks Alfred for validation like in the Batman Secret Files issue: "Am I Enough?"


I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.

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## charliehustle415

> I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.


I suppose, but I think it could have been written in a way that isn't so jarring.

----------


## millernumber1

> I suppose, but I think it could have been written in a way that isn't so jarring.


It's always going to be jarring, though. And I like that contrast.

----------


## charliehustle415

> It's always going to be jarring, though. And I like that contrast.


But destroying 100 goons and then crying about if he is enough is taking the cake, don't you think? Maybe if he failed or was bested by Kite Man (hell yeah) then I think it would read a bit better

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## Gotham citizen

> Anyone can become more mature through passing through various life events. It should not be read as "they were immature before" just because that happens. Batman being dependent on Alfred is less mature than him not depending on Alfred.


So you came back to my previous point:




> []
> if the Bruce Wayne of today need to become the mature man he already was during the golden, the silver and the bronze age, then I think something incredibly wrong happened with the modern Batman's writers.
> []






> I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.


It is since Knightfall they are telling this story, to me it is time to move forward and stop to emulate the work of Alan Moore and Frank Miller, because (like I said) there are better ways to acheive that purpose.

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## millernumber1

> But destroying 100 goons and then crying about if he is enough is taking the cake, don't you think? Maybe if he failed or was bested by Kite Man (hell yeah) then I think it would read a bit better


I think that's kind of a mis-statement of what actually happened in I Am Suicide. We read Bruce's letter over the scenes of him taking down hundreds of goons, but the letter was written months before, when he first caught Selina after she "murdered" the terrorists.

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## charliehustle415

> I think that's kind of a mis-statement of what actually happened in I Am Suicide. We read Bruce's letter over the scenes of him taking down hundreds of goons, but the letter was written months before, when he first caught Selina after she "murdered" the terrorists.


Sorry, I'm referring to The Batman Secret Files issue where Superman gives Bruce special Kryptonite to give him powers that last a lifetime

It takes place right before the wedding issue (I think)

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## millernumber1

> Sorry, I'm referring to The Batman Secret Files issue where Superman gives Bruce special Kryptonite to give him powers that last a lifetime
> 
> It takes place right before the wedding issue (I think)


I thought the platinum Kryptonite issue actually took place during the Cold Days stuff?

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## charliehustle415

> I thought the platinum Kryptonite issue actually took place during the Cold Days stuff?


I'm not sure, I'm guessing based the flashback of Joker shooting the bride at the church? It's possible, but I'm not 100% sure

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## millernumber1

> I'm not sure, I'm guessing based the flashback of Joker shooting the bride at the church? It's possible, but I'm not 100% sure


I was just thinking of release date, I guess.

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## Scott Taylor

> It is since Knightfall they are telling this story, to me it is time to move forward and stop to emulate the work of Alan Moore and Frank Miller, because (like I said) there are better ways to acheive that purpose.


We're completely on the same page here. Its sad what has happened to the Bat, always living in the shadow of those two stories now and forever. 

Were Miller and Moore the last two writers to actually make a significant mark on the Batman franchise? If so, then I'd be very careful what you wish for as far as King's lasting effects on the character. Would we really want to see him permanently reside on the "damaged" side of things?

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## Gotham citizen

In my opinion Miller and Moore made a significant mark on all the comic book industry, because since Watchmen, Dark Knight Return and Daredevil Born Again, every character suffer a periodically cycle of deconstruction by almost every new writer; with the difference they aren't Alan Moore or Frank Miller, so they can't reach the same result.

This video explain very well what I thought about "Miller and Moore mark"

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## Vordan

> We're completely on the same page here. Its sad what has happened to the Bat, always living in the shadow of those two stories now and forever. 
> 
> Were Miller and Moore the last two writers to actually make a significant mark on the Batman franchise? If so, then I'd be very careful what you wish for as far as King's lasting effects on the character. Would we really want to see him permanently reside on the "damaged" side of things?


Miller, Moore, and Morrison all shaped the modern Batman. Miller gave us a****** Batman who enjoys hurting people, Batman is his real ID with Bruce just being a mask, and has an antagonistic relationship with Supes. Moore gave us “One Bad Day” Joker and really pushed the idea of maybe Batman being as insane as his Rogues into the mainstream. Morrison gave us Batgod who always has a plan for everything and can beat anyone with prep time. All three did good work with the character, it’s their imitators who failed in their attempts to copy them that led to our current state.

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## millernumber1

> Miller, Moore, and Morrison all shaped the modern Batman. Miller gave us a****** Batman who enjoys hurting people, Batman is his real ID with Bruce just being a mask, and has an antagonistic relationship with Supes. Moore gave us “One Bad Day” Joker and really pushed the idea of maybe Batman being as insane as his Rogues into the mainstream. Morrison gave us Batgod who always has a plan for everything and can beat anyone with prep time. All three did good work with the character, it’s their imitators who failed in their attempts to copy them that led to our current state.


We've ventured a bit far afield of the discussion of King's run here. Anyone have some connections they want to draw out between King's run and Miller, Moore, Morrison, Snyder, Dixon, etc? I know King has said that Miller's DKR is the piece he always tries to reach and fails - but I'm curious if anyone can see how that fits, as I have difficulty seeing the connection.

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## charliehustle415

> We've ventured a bit far afield of the discussion of King's run here. Anyone have some connections they want to draw out between King's run and Miller, Moore, Morrison, Snyder, Dixon, etc? I know King has said that Miller's DKR is the piece he always tries to reach and fails - but I'm curious if anyone can see how that fits, as I have difficulty seeing the connection.


I suppose the connection is what are the things that stick to the Batman Mythos. 

For me the one thing I wish that sticks that King reintroduces is the fact all the villains know one another and have had a long relationship; for example, Joker & Catwoman having a discussion in the church. King makes Gotham lived in and you can imagine the rogues are doing things that we are unaware of, I know Tynion spoke about Gotham and its effect on the heroes and villains.

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## Chubistian

I have a more optimistic look on the Batman franchise. One of the things I like the most about Tom King's Batman is that he plays in a in-narrative way but also in a meta kind of way with the stories that came before his run. 

The discussion between Bruce and Selina about where they met each other for the first time works alongside the story King is building and where he wants to take both characters, as the interlude in City of Bane proves, but it also creates a dialogue between Year One and the first Catwoman story. This is one example, but there are more  that show how he's making, in a similar though more poetic way than Morrison (which doesn't mean "better"), every story in the Batman mythos relevant and part of an everlasting continuity. 

I know that some people like a more defined continuity, but I prefer that any aspect of the Batman mythos is at the hand of the writer to use if (s)he wants to. I don't think the Bat-franchise is stuck forever under the shadow of Knightfall and DKR and that most stories have been a repetitive cycle of breaking the Bat to make him come back better, at least not in a deep level. They might see similar from distance, but they have give me pretty different and interesting reading experiences. I have been a pretty happy Batman fan with the leadership of the franchise passing from Morrison, to Snyder/Capullo, to King, with so many great stories by other teams in between

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## millernumber1

> I suppose the connection is what are the things that stick to the Batman Mythos. 
> 
> For me the one thing I wish that sticks that King reintroduces is the fact all the villains know one another and have had a long relationship; for example, Joker & Catwoman having a discussion in the church. King makes Gotham lived in and you can imagine the rogues are doing things that we are unaware of, I know Tynion spoke about Gotham and its effect on the heroes and villains.


I do love the sense King gives you that these people know each other outside of "work," or off panel land.




> I have a more optimistic look on the Batman franchise. One of the things I like the most about Tom King's Batman is that he plays in a in-narrative way but also in a meta kind of way with the stories that came before his run. 
> 
> The discussion between Bruce and Selina about where they met each other for the first time works alongside the story King is building and where he wants to take both characters, as the interlude in City of Bane proves, but it also creates a dialogue between Year One and the first Catwoman story. This is one example, but there are more  that show how he's making, in a similar though more poetic way than Morrison (which doesn't mean "better"), every story in the Batman mythos relevant and part of an everlasting continuity. 
> 
> I know that some people like a more defined continuity, but I prefer that any aspect of the Batman mythos is at the hand of the writer to use if (s)he wants to. I don't think the Bat-franchise is stuck forever under the shadow of Knightfall and DKR and that most stories have been a repetitive cycle of breaking the Bat to make him come back better, at least not in a deep level. They might see similar from distance, but they have give me pretty different and interesting reading experiences. I have been a pretty happy Batman fan with the leadership of the franchise passing from Morrison, to Snyder/Capullo, to King, with so many great stories by other teams in between


I also love the meta and in-universe duality King likes to play with. I don't mind the cycles we've gotten, even if Morrison and Snyder aren't really to my taste. I think it's cool to have these landmark 4-5 year runs that form "periods" that shape fandom for a time.

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## charliehustle415

> I do love the sense King gives you that these people know each other outside of "work," or off panel land.
> 
> 
> 
> I also love the meta and in-universe duality King likes to play with. I don't mind the cycles we've gotten, even if Morrison and Snyder aren't really to my taste. I think it's cool to have these landmark 4-5 year runs that form "periods" that shape fandom for a time.


Absolutely, for me; my favorite periods are Knightfall, No Man's Land, and Batman & Son (basically all of Morrison's stuff). For me this is the perfect trilogy of Batman stories. If I was on a desert island these are the only Batman books I would need. 

But the great thing about King's run is that it would make an amazing forth book because he builds on these three periods the most. Snyder's New 52 run is a basically a giant bottle episode (stand alone story)

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## Scott Taylor

Batman was retired at the beginning of DKR. He had to make a long journey back against terrible odds, at age 55. He fought a gang leader (one defeat followed by a gutsy victory) and then had a similar fight against the establishment (represented by Superman, who defeated him, and then the grave, which Batman defeated). 

I see parallels to the King run, in that Batman has been undergoing the same cycle of being defeated and rising again afterwards. Its definitely a pattern we have seen over and over in King's run and also appears to be the overarching saga at work here. 

Morrison and Snyder fit the same pattern. Arguably not Moore, because we really don't know what to make of the ending of Killing Joke.

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## millernumber1

> Absolutely, for me; my favorite periods are Knightfall, No Man's Land, and Batman & Son (basically all of Morrison's stuff). For me this is the perfect trilogy of Batman stories. If I was on a desert island these are the only Batman books I would need. 
> 
> But the great thing about King's run is that it would make an amazing forth book because he builds on these three periods the most. Snyder's New 52 run is a basically a giant bottle episode (stand alone story)


I don't know if I have a favorite long period of Batman. Batman Reborn, for both obvious and non-obvious reasons, is my favorite discrete era (I'm counting 2009-2011 as Batman Reborn). I do like Knightfall, NML, and several other periods, but none of them have had the same weight. But never before has a Batman run, as opposed to the overall line, been the heart of my love for a period as Tom King's run (though for the first two years he'd have to split that with James Tynion).

It is very true that King builds heavily on Knightfall and Morrison - but I would argue that he builds in contrast to Snyder. Whereas for Snyder, Batman is an unchangable force of nature who can never truly live (love, change, grow), King's Batman is almost infinitely malleable and vulnerable as well as being unyeildingly committed to living each day to save others. For Snyder, Bruce is so mythic as to be almost impossibly unique - so unique that only a clone of Bruce is "worthy" of Batman. For King, Bruce is us - and his own father isn't the same thing. Batman is the choices he makes, not the DNA he bears. (Very Batman Begins, you might say - not coincidentally, my favorite of all Batman films).




> Batman was retired at the beginning of DKR. He had to make a long journey back against terrible odds, at age 55. He fought a gang leader (one defeat followed by a gutsy victory) and then had a similar fight against the establishment (represented by Superman, who defeated him, and then the grave, which Batman defeated). 
> 
> I see parallels to the King run, in that Batman has been undergoing the same cycle of being defeated and rising again afterwards. Its definitely a pattern we have seen over and over in King's run and also appears to be the overarching saga at work here. 
> 
> Morrison and Snyder fit the same pattern. Arguably not Moore, because we really don't know what to make of the ending of Killing Joke.


Knightfall, in ways both surface (all the TV commentary - what Miller derisively said were "all the talking heads they copied") and profound - contrasting himself with foils and mirrors, deep connections to the pulp hardboiled detective tradition - was very much building on the foundation of DKR, and King is building on both as foundations. I think the basic idea of a hero taking a dark journey to the underworld and coming out wiser isn't really that unique to DKR - DKR just perhaps did it better than almost any (though as I think I've said here before, I don't actually like DKR very much).

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## charliehustle415

> I don't know if I have a favorite long period of Batman. Batman Reborn, for both obvious and non-obvious reasons, is my favorite discrete era (I'm counting 2009-2011 as Batman Reborn). I do like Knightfall, NML, and several other periods, but none of them have had the same weight. But never before has a Batman run, as opposed to the overall line, been the heart of my love for a period as Tom King's run (though for the first two years he'd have to split that with James Tynion).
> 
> It is very true that King builds heavily on Knightfall and Morrison - but I would argue that he builds in contrast to Snyder. Whereas for Snyder, Batman is an unchangable force of nature who can never truly live (love, change, grow), King's Batman is almost infinitely malleable and vulnerable as well as being unyeildingly committed to living each day to save others. For Snyder, Bruce is so mythic as to be almost impossibly unique - so unique that only a clone of Bruce is "worthy" of Batman. For King, Bruce is us - and his own father isn't the same thing. Batman is the choices he makes, not the DNA he bears. (Very Batman Begins, you might say - not coincidentally, my favorite of all Batman films).
> 
> 
> 
> Knightfall, in ways both surface (all the TV commentary - what Miller derisively said were "all the talking heads they copied") and profound - contrasting himself with foils and mirrors, deep connections to the pulp hardboiled detective tradition - was very much building on the foundation of DKR, and King is building on both as foundations. I think the basic idea of a hero taking a dark journey to the underworld and coming out wiser isn't really that unique to DKR - DKR just perhaps did it better than almost any (though as I think I've said here before, I don't actually like DKR very much).


Damn, I never thought about Batman's "worthiness" now I have to reread it again

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## millernumber1

> Damn, I never thought about Batman's "worthiness" now I have to reread it again


Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.

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## charliehustle415

> Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.


Makes me wish King had used Dick more; since to me he is the only one has ever been worthy to be Batman. 

I think I just miss Grayson, what an amazing book

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## Kurisu

> Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.


As someone who feels about Bruce the way you do Steph, this fills my heart with joy lol. Bruce’s character study is the peak of this run and it far outweighs the smattering lows. 

OT: Begrudgingly becoming more interested in Tynion’s run the more I see from it. Damn you, Jiménez!

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## millernumber1

> As someone who feels about Bruce the way you do Steph, this fills my heart with joy lol. Bruce’s character study is the peak of this run and it far outweighs the smattering lows. 
> 
> OT: Begrudgingly becoming more interested in Tynion’s run the more I see from it. Damn you, Jiménez!


Hooray! I do like being able to love more characters. And King has really brought Bruce into my circle of beloved characters.

Also, I'm very excited about seeing Guillem March and Jorge Jimenez's art with Tynion's writing!

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## David Walton

Just to be clear, I wasn't arguing that cycles are a bad thing, or that King's run can only be judged by whether he makes lasting changes to Batman's characterization. 

I'd say the Batman line has been consistently great for the past thirty years. The quality is astounding.

----------


## David Walton

> Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.


Interesting. I think Bruce is a heroic, inherently decent human being even in his more obsessive incarnations (in the mainstream books, I mean, not alternate realities). I've never seen him as being unworthy of his heroic mantle.

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## millernumber1

> Interesting. I think Bruce is a heroic, inherently decent human being even in his more obsessive incarnations (in the mainstream books, I mean, not alternate realities). I've never seen him as being unworthy of his heroic mantle.


If you look at a lot of the writers who were formative when I first got into comics - namely Rucka, Brubaker, Gabrych, Winick, and a few others - they really leaned on how dysfunctional Bruce was in his personal relationships. I like the Bruce Wayne: Murderer crossover, but that Bruce was almost maniacally dedicated to pushing people away. And since I am primarily a Batfamily fan, that doesn't exactly endear me to Bruce as a character. I think what's different to me about King's run is that I start to understand why Bruce makes those destructive choices from the inside, and feel what he's feeling.

----------


## David Walton

> If you look at a lot of the writers who were formative when I first got into comics - namely Rucka, Brubaker, Gabrych, Winick, and a few others - they really leaned on how dysfunctional Bruce was in his personal relationships. I like the Bruce Wayne: Murderer crossover, but that Bruce was almost maniacally dedicated to pushing people away. And since I am primarily a Batfamily fan, that doesn't exactly endear me to Bruce as a character. I think what's different to me about King's run is that I start to understand why Bruce makes those destructive choices from the inside, and feel what he's feeling.


Generally, my preference would be for a Bruce Wayne in the Bronze Age mold, who's not only capable of healthy relationships but even makes wisecracks. 

That said, I don't find Rucka's Bruce Wayne unlikeable. I think like many writers, he was inspired by Miller's work while also trying to make the case that DKR isn't the inevitable outcome. That Bruce can be a kinder, more compassionate human being, but he might have to be pushed to the logical conclusion of his worst tendencies before he can conquer them. And he and Brubaker did an excellent job of accomplishing that. 

Given that Bruce had just gone through Knightfall/Knightquest/Knightsend/Contagion/Catacylsm/No Man's Land, I don't expect him to be at his best, and it's a testament to his character that he was able to work through his problems as quickly as he did (all things considered).

----------


## charliehustle415

> If you look at a lot of the writers who were formative when I first got into comics - namely Rucka, Brubaker, Gabrych, Winick, and a few others - they really leaned on how dysfunctional Bruce was in his personal relationships. I like the Bruce Wayne: Murderer crossover, but that Bruce was almost maniacally dedicated to pushing people away. And since I am primarily a Batfamily fan, that doesn't exactly endear me to Bruce as a character. I think what's different to me about King's run is that I start to understand why Bruce makes those destructive choices from the inside, and feel what he's feeling.


Man, that fight with Nightwing in the cave; ah the memories and the feelings I had as a kid of a father and son fighting

----------


## David Walton

Somewhat paradoxically, the era during which Bruce was most frequently pushing his allies away was also the one where the Bat-Family underwent its most rapid expansion.

----------


## charliehustle415

No Bat/Cat in March either; time to pack it in folks. 

Just like 3 Jokers waiting for Bat/Cat is going to take a couple of years

----------


## millernumber1

> No Bat/Cat in March either; time to pack it in folks. 
> 
> Just like 3 Jokers waiting for Bat/Cat is going to take a couple of years


I appreciate that they're not soliciting then making big delays.

But this does give us more time to plan our reread! We now have three full months to play with - that's roughly an issue a day - what do people think? Should we try that way, or try for arcs that break down in about the same way?

----------


## lilyrose

A couple of _years_???

----------


## millernumber1

> A couple of _years_???


I personally am hoping that we'll see it at least by June  :Smile:

----------


## charliehustle415

> A couple of _years_???


King on Twitter stated it's going to be a "while" 

For me that means at least 6 months out which means it may not end until after June 2021 (of course there may be delays)

----------


## Inversed

We're at least getting Strange Adventures for sure starting in March, and I had a feeling we wouldn't be getting them both first solicited at the same time anyway.

If the delay means the pacing will be as best as possible, and means less likely for any further delays, then it's good they're taking their time.

And if anything, we can expect art with FANTASTIC detail. Heroes In Crisis was basically just Mann showing off, so imagine that level with even more preparation time.

----------


## Katana500

I have a feeling they maybe want Bat/Cat to coincide with 5g.

Have luke in the main batman book and Bruce in batman/catwoman to keep older fans happy.

----------


## bob.schoonover

> I appreciate that they're not soliciting then making big delays.
> 
> But this does give us more time to plan our reread! We now have three full months to play with - that's roughly an issue a day - what do people think? Should we try that way, or try for arcs that break down in about the same way?


I'd still prefer arcs, but we can definitely do smaller chunks, too, like separate Rooftops from either I Am Suicide or I Am Bane.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I have a feeling they maybe want Bat/Cat to coincide with 5g.
> 
> Have luke in the main batman book and Bruce in batman/catwoman to keep older fans happy.


A lot of the older fans complain about batman sharing a book with catwoman a lot, so I don't think they would be fine with that idea. Especailly since King said Batcat focuses more on exploring Selina than Bruce, according to King.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I have a feeling they maybe want Bat/Cat to coincide with 5g.
> 
> Have luke in the main batman book and Bruce in batman/catwoman to keep older fans happy.


This is my theory as well. So Luke for some and Bruce for others

----------


## Noodle

The solicit for the newest issue of Catwoman seems to indicate it's wrapping up the story they've been doing since the start of the series. It doesn't say "Final Issue" but feels that way. They may be closing out the series, maybe getting an epilogue issue in there and then starting Bat/Cat afterwards.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd still prefer arcs, but we can definitely do smaller chunks, too, like separate Rooftops from either I Am Suicide or I Am Bane.


Hmm. Should we try to do a weekly schedule? That'd be easiest to manage, I think.




> The solicit for the newest issue of Catwoman seems to indicate it's wrapping up the story they've been doing since the start of the series. It doesn't say "Final Issue" but feels that way. They may be closing out the series, maybe getting an epilogue issue in there and then starting Bat/Cat afterwards.


I really hope that they will harmonize the Catwoman title with what happens in #85. The current discontinuity is very frustrating.

----------


## Inversed

> The solicit for the newest issue of Catwoman seems to indicate it's wrapping up the story they've been doing since the start of the series. It doesn't say "Final Issue" but feels that way. They may be closing out the series, maybe getting an epilogue issue in there and then starting Bat/Cat afterwards.


When Bat/Cat was first announced, they mentioned that the Catwoman book was still continuing. I would imagine while the issue is wrapping up that story, the book will keep going catching up to the present timeline with Selina doing her own stuff in Gotham alongside whatever else she's doing in Tynion's Batman and then eventually in Bat/Cat. I feel like they'll only end up getting rid of the book is Joelle Jones gets a new project instead.

----------


## gregpersons

Can't believe we're only like 30 hours away from seeing the end of this run.

----------


## millernumber1

> Can't believe we're only like 30 hours away from seeing the end of this run.


Pretty amazing! I made a prediction months ago that Scarface would be key to Batman's victory. Anyone else got last minute predictions they want to get in before 85 drops to see if they come true?  :Smile:

----------


## Chubistian

> Pretty amazing! I made a prediction months ago that Scarface would be key to Batman's victory. Anyone else got last minute predictions they want to get in before 85 drops to see if they come true?


Mine may see less relevant, but I think Campbell will finally make a good game. I just read the preview for #85 and I decided I will bet for the poor Knights's player. I guess he will represent Bruce in his final victory against his father after receiving so much crap. I think your prediction is gonna be right btw

https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...-preview-pages

----------


## millernumber1

> Mine may see less relevant, but I think Campbell will finally make a good game. I just read the preview for #85 and I decided I will bet for the poor Knights's player. I guess he will represent Bruce in his final victory against his father after receiving so much crap. I think your prediction is gonna be right btw
> 
> https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...-preview-pages


I think your prediction about Campbell is actually very relevant - it's thematic!

----------


## bob.schoonover

Last second prediction: Thomas sacrifices himself in the Nain Pit to cure Claire.

----------


## millernumber1

> Last second prediction: Thomas sacrifices himself in the Nain Pit to cure Claire.


Oooh, good one. I've been pitching a Nain Pit Thomas sacrifice for a while now, but didn't think about for Claire!

----------


## bob.schoonover

> Oooh, good one. I've been pitching a Nain Pit Thomas sacrifice for a while now, but didn't think about for Claire!


I have no idea which loose ends King will feel compelled to wrap up in Batman vs Bat/Cat vs leaving for the next person, but I'd think Claire and Thomas are on the short list of plot points that it'd be better to wrap up in Batman.  The other option for curing Claire is that Kryptonite from Superman in the Secret Files (this is obviously comic book science nonsense, but let's just speculate that the dual effects of the Super Venom and Kryptonite cancel out and leave Claire as a moderately powered young woman who is no longer a walking death wish).

----------


## gregpersons

> Pretty amazing! I made a prediction months ago that Scarface would be key to Batman's victory. Anyone else got last minute predictions they want to get in before 85 drops to see if they come true?


I've been thinking that's gotta be coming since the last page reveal in #50... I would be more surprised if it turned out he actually _is_ under Psycho Pirate's control.

----------


## charliehustle415

> I have no idea which loose ends King will feel compelled to wrap up in Batman vs Bat/Cat vs leaving for the next person, but I'd think Claire and Thomas are on the short list of plot points that it'd be better to wrap up in Batman.  The other option for curing Claire is that Kryptonite from Superman in the Secret Files (this is obviously comic book science nonsense, but let's just speculate that the dual effects of the Super Venom and Kryptonite cancel out and leave Claire as a moderately powered young woman who is no longer a walking death wish).


Great prediction, I think this is the key

----------


## Katana500

I think Selina is gonna be pregnant. I reckon it will be revealed tomorrow but if it isnt I think it will happen in Batman/Catwoman.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> Mine may see less relevant, but I think Campbell will finally make a good game. I just read the preview for #85 and I decided I will bet for the poor Knights's player. I guess he will represent Bruce in his final victory against his father after receiving so much crap. I think your prediction is gonna be right btw
> 
> https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...-preview-pages


Is he drinking a ...beer?  I think that may be more of a shocker to me than Campbell possibly leading a scoring drive for the Knights.  

I also think there's a good chance Selina will be pregnant from the trip to Hawaii.  Can't wait to see how everything ends.

----------


## lilyrose

I'd love it if Selina were pregnant. But if that happened, Tynian would also have to write her pregnant, since they're still going to be together in his run it looks like. I mean, I guess that's possible- she'd have to stick around in that case and DC would have insisted on it, esp if they allowed a pregnancy. Maybe it can happen.

----------


## Katana500

> I'd love it if Selina were pregnant. But if that happened, Tynian would also have to write her pregnant, since they're still going to be together in his run it looks like. I mean, I guess that's possible- she'd have to stick around in that case and DC would have insisted on it, esp if they allowed a pregnancy. Maybe it can happen.


her being pregnant could work quite well with the rumoured 6 year timeskip to 5G.

If she only starts showing signs of pregnancy in Batman/Catwoman they could have the baby be born right at the end of the 12 issues - then poof timeskip - six year old Helena around in 5g

----------


## lilyrose

> her being pregnant could work quite well with the rumoured 6 year timeskip to 5G.
> 
> If she only starts showing signs of pregnancy in Batman/Catwoman they could have the baby be born right at the end of the 12 issues - then poof timeskip - six year old Helena around in 5g


Yes, that's true. It's perfect timing for a time skip.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

One last art reveal by King before #85 lands tomorrow!

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...94518563807233

----------


## millernumber1

> One last art reveal by King before #85 lands tomorrow!
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...94518563807233


I love these "every night" type panels that King's done a lot of - from Rooftops, to The Question, to here.

----------


## gregpersons

> I love these "every night" type panels that King's done a lot of - from Rooftops, to The Question, to here.


Me too. 

"What do you do when it's not most nights?"
"I prepare."
"You prepare."
"For what?"
"For most nights."
"For most nights."

----------


## millernumber1

> Me too. 
> 
> "What do you do when it's not most nights?"
> "I prepare."
> "You prepare."
> "For what?"
> "For most nights."
> "For most nights."


It's interesting. Rooftops, despite being the issue where I watched Strip Panel Naked's video helping me to appreciate King's repeated dialogue more, still tends to make me feel it's a bit overdone there. It's why I say that King's improved in balancing the repetition - not just of Bat/Cat, but of all his dialogue.

----------


## Katana500

> Me too. 
> 
> "What do you do when it's not most nights?"
> "I prepare."
> "You prepare."
> "For what?"
> "For most nights."
> "For most nights."


I reckon if they ever made King's story into an animated movie. The dialogue would probably come across better with the way its said. Looks a wee bit unnatural on paper but its not too hard to imagine on screen Catwoman sarcastically parroting Bruce to irritate him.

----------


## David Walton

> I reckon if they ever made King's story into an animated movie. The dialogue would probably come across better with the way its said. Looks a wee bit unnatural on paper but its not too hard to imagine on screen Catwoman sarcastically parroting Bruce to irritate him.


That's a really great point. How you imagine the lines being spoken makes for an entirely different experience. I generally like repetition and think King uses it effectively.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's a really great point. How you imagine the lines being spoken makes for an entirely different experience. I generally like repetition and think King uses it effectively.


I generally do, as well - I just think he had a bit too much at the beginning, and balances it better in the last half of the run. I'm also curious if I'm just used to it now.  :Smile:

----------


## gregpersons

> That's a really great point. How you imagine the lines being spoken makes for an entirely different experience. I generally like repetition and think King uses it effectively.


I agree. It "sounds" right in my head... I imagine them as having a kind of Cary Grant / Katherine Hepburn style of quick-tempo patter. 




> I reckon if they ever made King's story into an animated movie. The dialogue would probably come across better with the way its said. Looks a wee bit unnatural on paper but its not too hard to imagine on screen Catwoman sarcastically parroting Bruce to irritate him.


Good call. Quite a lot of this run feels well-suited to cinematics. 

I wonder if we will see a DC animated movie version of King's run sooner than we expect — only because the animated version of "Hush" emphasized the Bat/Cat angle even more prominently than the original comic. 

Considering how the DC Animated movies tend to streamline things, I think I'd want to limit an adaptation to focus on Bat/Cat. I'd definitely split the storylines up for the sake of coherency and limited time. I don't think it'd be wise to follow the comic to the letter in an adaptation.

With a little bit of tweaking, you could assemble the story like so:

—Date Nights... (prologue)
—I Am Suicide 
—Rooftops
—Every Prologue is a Prelude (the Proposal)
—Super Friends (pt 1 & 2)
—Rules of Engagement
—Something Borrowed, Something Blue
—I Am Bane
—Everyone Loves Bane (a mixture of Everyone Loves Ivy / City Of Bane) — supervillain takes over everyone's minds, Batman is physically broken, recovers with Cat's help to save the day
—...Last Rites (epilogue)

I'd cut the aspect of the run focused on Gotham Girl and Flashpoint Batman and "can Batman be happy?", and most of everything post-50. I think that story track is enough of its own thing that it could work as a sequel.

Okay fine here's the beats to the sequel using King's run.

—The Button
—The Best Man
—The Wedding (Flashpoint Batman replacing Bane)
—I Am Gotham 
—Cold Days
—Tyrant Wing
—Knightmares
—The Fall and the Fallen
—City of Batman (Flashpoint Batman replacing Bane)

You have to change a few details, the biggest one replacing Claire's recovery from I Am Suicide/I Am Bane with someone else... maybe something with Alfred having cancer and Bruce needing to obtain a type of venom from Santa Prisca.  

But otherwise I think if you split it this way, you can picture how it would work in the different format.

You still miss out on some of the more tangential stories like Brave and the Mold, and especially War of Jokes and Riddles — but it makes more sense to cut War, and perhaps instead expand that into being its own thing rather than an extended flashback in these narratives.

----------


## Katana500

> I agree. It "sounds" right in my head... I imagine them as having a kind of Cary Grant / Katherine Hepburn style of quick-tempo patter. 
> 
> 
> 
> Good call. Quite a lot of this run feels well-suited to cinematics. 
> 
> I wonder if we will see a DC animated movie version of King's run sooner than we expect — only because the animated version of "Hush" emphasized the Bat/Cat angle even more prominently than the original comic. 
> 
> Considering how the DC Animated movies tend to streamline things, I think I'd want to limit an adaptation to focus on Bat/Cat, 
> ...


I reckon you could streamline the story into two animated films. Kinda like the death and return of superman movies!

I would absolutely love to see Bruce, Selina, Clark and Lois at the theme park - maybe they would cut the batman/wonderwoman fighting the hordes for time and could add wonderwoman and steve to the theme park visit.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree. It "sounds" right in my head... I imagine them as having a kind of Cary Grant / Katherine Hepburn style of quick-tempo patter. 
> 
> 
> 
> Good call. Quite a lot of this run feels well-suited to cinematics. 
> 
> I wonder if we will see a DC animated movie version of King's run sooner than we expect — only because the animated version of "Hush" emphasized the Bat/Cat angle even more prominently than the original comic. 
> 
> Considering how the DC Animated movies tend to streamline things, I think I'd want to limit an adaptation to focus on Bat/Cat.
> ...


This is an interesting idea...but my favorite stuff is all the post-50 stuff, so I wouldn't love it.  :Frown:  Ah, well.

----------


## gregpersons

That's what I get for posting and then editing after — I agree it works best split into two like Death & Return of Superman.

----------


## Inversed

> Good call. Quite a lot of this run feels well-suited to cinematics. 
> 
> I wonder if we will see a DC animated movie version of King's run sooner than we expect — only because the animated version of "Hush" emphasized the Bat/Cat angle even more prominently than the original comic. 
> 
> Considering how the DC Animated movies tend to streamline things, I think I'd want to limit an adaptation to focus on Bat/Cat. I'd definitely split the storylines up for the sake of coherency and limited time. I don't think it'd be wise to follow the comic to the letter in an adaptation.
> 
> With a little bit of tweaking, you could assemble the story like so:
> 
> —Date Nights... (prologue)
> ...


That's actually really clever idea of how you would split King's run into movies. Would love to see it all structured like this. Though, they each would probably need to be closer to 90 minutes each as opposed to the 70 minutes that the DC Animated films usually are.

They do tend to stick with specific standout storylines whenever they are adapting, and King's run, as shown through here, is better seen as one long arc rather than as individual connected stories like Morrison or Snyder, etc., so this would be a first if they decide to go this route. I think we'll probably end up getting a Dark Nights Metal adaptation first, or possibly something else from Snyder's run (besides the kind of Court Of Owls adaptation we got), before we get a King one.

----------


## David Walton

King will have screenwriting experience now with NEW GODS so maybe he could write the adaptation(s) of his Batman work. Winick adapted UNDER THE RED HOOD and it's one of the strongest DCAU films.

----------


## Scott Taylor

Everyone loves Ivy might be my favorite Poison Ivy story.

----------


## charliehustle415

Can't believe it's almost here the finale to King's epic.

Regardless of the ups and downs in the 85 issues, it is quite a feat to write as much as he did in such a short amount of time. I mean he wrote multiple books, he wrote the biggest most popular superhero in the world that double shipped, and he has been working on multiple television and film projects. 

I am looking forward to see what he does in regards to Batman after Bat/Cat

----------


## millernumber1

> Can't believe it's almost here the finale to King's epic.
> 
> Regardless of the ups and downs in the 85 issues, it is quite a feat to write as much as he did in such a short amount of time. I mean he wrote multiple books, he wrote the biggest most popular superhero in the world that double shipped, and he has been working on multiple television and film projects. 
> 
> I am looking forward to see what he does in regards to Batman after Bat/Cat


After Bat/Cat? You mean after he's finished with Bat/Cat, you hope he does more with Batman? Just trying to understand, as that's quite a distance off.

----------


## charliehustle415

> After Bat/Cat? You mean after he's finished with Bat/Cat, you hope he does more with Batman? Just trying to understand, as that's quite a distance off.


Yup, after Bat/Cat; maybe Justice League or The Outsiders I would love to see him on a team book

----------


## millernumber1

> Yup, after Bat/Cat; maybe Justice League or The Outsiders I would love to see him on a team book


Huh. I'm not thinking nearly that far ahead!

----------


## charliehustle415

> Huh. I'm not thinking nearly that far ahead!


You never know, he can do multiple books at a time. 

The one thing I hope doesn't happen is that he stops writing to do more film and television stuff (like Johns).

----------


## millernumber1

> You never know, he can do multiple books at a time. 
> 
> The one thing I hope doesn't happen is that he stops writing to do more film and television stuff (like Johns).


He's doing Strange Adventures, Bat/Cat, and something else right now.  :Smile: 

I actually think King would like to do film/tv. It pays better.

----------


## charliehustle415

> He's doing Strange Adventures, Bat/Cat, and something else right now. 
> 
> I actually think King would like to do film/tv. It pays better.


Of course, _I_ don't want him to  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Of course, _I_ don't want him to


I mean, if he wrote GOOD tv/film, I'd be a fan. I'd just miss his comics.

----------


## Inversed

I personally hope he moves away from anything Batman related after Bat/Cat, besides maybe occasional guest appearances in other books, just because I like when a writer concludes a run, especially one of a scale like this, that they give it some room to allow it to stand out more, as well as letting them branch out to different projects.

That's also why I hope similarly Snyder stays away from Batman now after Last Knight On Earth, not only because it is effectively the end of his run, but he's done almost nothing BUT Batman since he started, so I'd like to see him take on more and different projects beyond just the one Swamp Thing run and a couple Superman stories.

I personally really want to know what King's TV project will be, especially whether it ends up being a DC project or not (I'd be happy with either or). Also interested to know if he will be the showrunner or just the initial writer.

----------


## gregpersons

Loved it. Well done. Stuck the landing.

----------


## lilyrose

I thought it was good. Liked it a lot. But lol at no marriage, just we're back together and will always love each other. That SCREAMS editorial will not allow us to get married, so we're just like...married in our hearts. 

Okay? Well, that better mean baby Helena is on the way in Bat/Cat then, because I can't imagine what else could be the long promised "generational change."

----------


## charliehustle415

Excellent end, very Morrisony Oroboros and all. 

I'm off Batman until Bat/Cat see you around folks.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> I thought it was good. Liked it a lot. But lol at no marriage, just we're back together and will always love each other. That SCREAMS editorial will not allow us to get married, so we're just like...married in our hearts. 
> 
> Okay? Well, that better mean baby Helena is on the way in Bat/Cat then, because I can't imagine what else could be the long promised "generational change."


I feel its a good compromise for now.  She's wearing the ring.  They can always make it legal in the future if they feel the need to.  (And I do find the reason that they ended up not going through the ceremony this time around pretty hilarious.)  I wish the main Catwoman title wasn't so far behind currently.

----------


## millernumber1

> Loved it. Well done. Stuck the landing.


It took me three readings - first one was a bit underwhelmed. Second liking it a lot better. Third time, in tears.




> I thought it was good. Liked it a lot. But lol at no marriage, just we're back together and will always love each other. That SCREAMS editorial will not allow us to get married, so we're just like...married in our hearts. 
> 
> Okay? Well, that better mean baby Helena is on the way in Bat/Cat then, because I can't imagine what else could be the long promised "generational change."


I mean, if they'd gotten married on the roof with a drunk judge, it wouldn't have been a whole lot better, legally speaking. But I kinda wish they'd done that. Still happy with the way it turned out.




> Excellent end, very Morrisony Oroboros and all. 
> 
> I'm off Batman until Bat/Cat see you around folks.


I still need to finish my comparison essay about Morrison/Snyder/King final issues. There is a sense that all three see Batman as Eternal (lol, looking forward to Tynion!), but for Morrison, it's almost nihilistic, for Snyder, it's a tragedy, for King, it's hope - every day, like the Annual #4.




> I feel its a good compromise for now.  She's wearing the ring.  They can always make it legal in the future if they feel the need to.  (And I do find the reason that they ended up not going through the ceremony this time around pretty hilarious.)  I wish the main Catwoman title wasn't so far behind currently.


Indeed. To all of your points.  :Smile:

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I'm assuming that was King's way of getting them technically married while also still not getting them married-married for presumably DC Editorial's sake - though they do dress up like animals and fight crimes on rooftops, so who's to say that Batman and Catwoman have to get married in a legal, official and ceremonious way?

Kind of disappointed that there was no final "Hell Yeah" from Kite-Man on the last page, but I guess that might only be something he does when he's "working." :P

Given that they're the few pages in the issue where Janin isn't doing the art, I'm guessing Bruce meeting with Thomas in full Hannibal Lecter getup was something King added closer to the deadline. 

And I could've done without Tynion's brief teaser for his run at the end.

On a side note, today's Doomsday Clock #12 mentions 
*spoilers:*
Superman searching for Bruce Wayne's lost daughter in 2026 as one of the things Dr. Manhattan sees in the DCU's future - and it's also placed after he mentions the creation of Earth-5G
*end of spoilers* though I wouldn't take this as a guarantee of anything we'll be getting in Bat/Cat yet.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm assuming that was King's way of getting them technically married while also still not getting them married-married for presumably DC Editorial's sake - though they do dress up like animals and fight crimes on rooftops, so who's to say that Batman and Catwoman have to get married in a legal, official and ceremonious way?
> 
> Kind of disappointed that there was no final "Hell Yeah" from Kite-Man on the last page, but I guess that might only be something he does when he's "working." :P
> 
> Given that they're the few pages in the issue where Janin isn't doing the art, I'm guessing Bruce meeting with Thomas in full Hannibal Lecter getup was something King added closer to the deadline. 
> 
> And I could've done without Tynion's brief teaser for his run at the end.
> 
> On a side note, today's Doomsday Clock #12 mentions 
> ...


I thought the teaser was okay. I like the Guillem March art, but without Batman, it wasn't super exciting. Ah, well.

Interesting that King didn't repeat Hell Yeah in this one.  :Smile: 

I think the Killing Joke scene with Batman and Thomas in Arkham was probably a late addition - it didn't quite feel necessary, though it was tied in thematically.

----------


## ermac

I started hating his run. I couldn't get King's writing at first and would roll my eyes with stuff like Batman holding an airplane, Selina beating Flash or Thomas beating the whole batfamily single handed.

After the revelation of Bane's plan, I became intrigued by it. The War of Jokes and Riddles was an amazing arc. And the issues with Superman and Wonderman were definitely very well written.

The wedding thing was lukewarm, but I still appreciated King's writing. The church issue, the fallout of the wedding and the desert issues were all very well done. I wasn't part of the hating of his run.

After knightmares I grew a little annoyed with King's tropes and the pacing of the run. Too much important stuff happening off panel... Too much poetry being shoehorned into the dialogue... Selina being too perfect... Thomas being too genius... Bat/cat being too repetitive...

Now, I end his run feeling a little sad, because I think it could have been one of the greatest of all time. I really wish the editors had changed some of the artistic decisions that spoiled the fun for me. And I'm still intrigued by how the decision to cut short his run came to be.

----------


## millernumber1

> I started hating his run. I couldn't get King's writing at first and would roll my eyes with stuff like Batman holding an airplane, Selina beating Flash or Thomas beating the whole batfamily single handed.
> 
> After the revelation of Bane's plan, I became intrigued by it. The War of Jokes and Riddles was an amazing arc. And the issues with Superman and Wonderman were definitely very well written.
> 
> The wedding thing was lukewarm, but I still appreciated King's writing. The church issue, the fallout of the wedding and the desert issues were all very well done. I wasn't part of the hating of his run.
> 
> After knightmares I grew a little annoyed with King's tropes and the pacing of the run. Too much important stuff happening off panel... Too much poetry being shoehorned into the dialogue... Selina being too perfect... Thomas being too genius... Bat/cat being too repetitive...
> 
> Now, I end his run feeling a little sad, because I think it could have been one of the greatest of all time. I really wish the editors had changed some of the artistic decisions that spoiled the fun for me. And I'm still intrigued by how the decision to cut short his run came to be.


This interview, released today, has a bit more of a detailed account from King about why his run was changed from 100/105 to 85 + 12. (Though as we did the math a few weeks ago, he IS doing 100 issues, counting specials, Annuals, etc.)

I actually started out really not feeling King's run too - and I largely put that down, in universe, to the fact that Bruce is MASSIVELY unsettled because he just had to put Selina in jail under a death sentence. But of course, I didn't know that until after the Wedding. I still actually don't love the bulk of the pre-50 issues - it's post-50 that I really fell in love with the run. #85 did have to grow on me - hopefully, as we reread it, it will speak more to us.

----------


## Kurisu

Cant believe these two got so horny they forgot to get married.

----------


## gregpersons

> This interview, released today, has a bit more of a detailed account from King about why his run was changed from 100/105 to 85 + 12. (Though as we did the math a few weeks ago, he IS doing 100 issues, counting specials, Annuals, etc.)
> 
> I actually started out really not feeling King's run too - and I largely put that down, in universe, to the fact that Bruce is MASSIVELY unsettled because he just had to put Selina in jail under a death sentence. But of course, I didn't know that until after the Wedding. I still actually don't love the bulk of the pre-50 issues - it's post-50 that I really fell in love with the run. #85 did have to grow on me - hopefully, as we reread it, it will speak more to us.


What interview?


Btw I peaked at re-reading Batman Rebirth #1 and holy god a LOT of the run is telegraphed by Lucius Fox in that scene when Bruce is hanging off the edge of the helipad.

----------


## millernumber1

> What interview?
> 
> 
> Btw I peaked at re-reading Batman Rebirth #1 and holy god a LOT of the run is telegraphed by Lucius Fox in that scene when Bruce is hanging off the edge of the helipad.


Whoops, here is the link: http://11oclockcomics.com/2019/12/18...s-episode-643/

----------


## bob.schoonover

I liked it.  I called Claire getting the platinum kryptonite, although I was wrong about the Nain Pit.  Catwoman being the key to Bruce's plan to defeat the villains was something I'd suggested months ago, and that was mostly right.  I was way wrong about a number of things, of course (although I'd love to have King let us know how he was going to undo Alfred's death originally).  I figured the "we're married in spirit" was a possible outcome, but didn't feel strongly about it.  Thomas not being definitively dead seems . . . wrong.  Even if he wasn't part of Manhattan's plot, put all the toys back in the box - we don't need a lesser writer coming in and giving us a worse Thomas vs Bruce story down the road (c.f. Hush Returns)

I have to say, and this is broadly about expectation setting, calling this arc City of Bane really seemed a misfire.  I enjoyed the story from Fall and the Fallen to the end, and probably will enjoy it more upon the great re-read of 2020, but Bane was such a trivial part of it and I imagined we'd see more of him.  Bane didn't really have a character arc from 50 on that matched what was teased in I Am Suicide - that he actually wanted Psycho Pirate for a reason - and I refuse to believe that was all an act in furtherance of his omniscient plot to break Batman.  I don't know what all got dropped in the shuffle to put Tynion on the book (big whatever from me there - oh, look, someone else telling their great Joker story that'll be bigger than all the ones before it), but I'd be curious if Bane and his rule over the city (especially the Riddler/Joker buddy cop stuff) wasn't the biggest casualty

----------


## millernumber1

> Btw I peaked at re-reading Batman Rebirth #1 and holy god a LOT of the run is telegraphed by Lucius Fox in that scene when Bruce is hanging off the edge of the helipad.


I skimmed through that last night, but I'll need to reread again to see the telegraphing. I can see some of it, but I'm also hampered by the "Snyder and King" authorship problem - trying to figure out what's foreshadowing Metal, and what's foreshadowing KingBats.




> I liked it.  I called Claire getting the platinum kryptonite, although I was wrong about the Nain Pit.  Catwoman being the key to Bruce's plan to defeat the villains was something I'd suggested months ago, and that was mostly right.  I was way wrong about a number of things, of course (although I'd love to have King let us know how he was going to undo Alfred's death originally).  I figured the "we're married in spirit" was a possible outcome, but didn't feel strongly about it.  Thomas not being definitively dead seems . . . wrong.  Even if he wasn't part of Manhattan's plot, put all the toys back in the box - we don't need a lesser writer coming in and giving us a worse Thomas vs Bruce story down the road (c.f. Hush Returns)
> 
> I have to say, and this is broadly about expectation setting, calling this arc City of Bane really seemed a misfire.  I enjoyed the story from Fall and the Fallen to the end, and probably will enjoy it more upon the great re-read of 2020, but Bane was such a trivial part of it and I imagined we'd see more of him.  Bane didn't really have a character arc from 50 on that matched what was teased in I Am Suicide - that he actually wanted Psycho Pirate for a reason - and I refuse to believe that was all an act in furtherance of his omniscient plot to break Batman.  I don't know what all got dropped in the shuffle to put Tynion on the book (big whatever from me there - oh, look, someone else telling their great Joker story that'll be bigger than all the ones before it), but I'd be curious if Bane and his rule over the city (especially the Riddler/Joker buddy cop stuff) wasn't the biggest casualty


Good call! I didn't see the Claire thing coming, but it worked well, I think. I'm pleased with my Ventriloquist prediction, even if it was obvious.  :Smile:  I liked how King made it a mutual plan - Batman wasn't surprised by Catwoman acting, but it was a true partnership.

I actually prefer characters, even villains (except for the Joker) not being dead at the ends of runs. If you kill someone off, it feels too limiting to me for future stories. It's part of why I struggled so much with Alfred's death. I can now see the thematic reasons behind it, and how it can make for good new stories...though if they just replace Alfred with Lucius, I can see writers just repeating the same dynamic. Thankfully, Tynion is definitely not gonna do that - his pitch for his run explictly takes that relationship being gone and makes it a character point (part of why I love Tynion is that, similar to Gail Simone's first run of Birds of Prey, he takes what other writers have done and makes them integral to his story and characters, rather than resetting everything to his preferred status quo).

Thomas as villain is causing a lot of consternation among those who loved him in Flashpoint and Knight of Vengeance. I think leaving him around for others to play with is actually good - if someone wants to "fix" Thomas, this leaves that door open, even though I don't think he needs to be fixed.

I think you are absolutely right about the arc title "City of Bane." I think maybe something more generic wouldn't have caused the expectations - "City of Villains" or better yet, "City of the Year of the Legion of Villains Doom!!!!!" Seeing "City of Bane Conclusion" at the end of this issue was a bit of an emotional "huh". But not that big of one.

----------


## Chubistian

I think the title City of Bane was at the end clearly a deception. Maybe at first Bane was gonna play a bigger role, but I'm fine with how things turned out with the true main villain hiding behind Bane. 

About #85, what can I say? I loved it. It ties every theme and plot I wanted closure to at the same time that it prepares the ground to the limited series Batman/Catwoman. I think the structure of the issue was a pretty bold move, especially considering it was the end of the run, as you know about Bruce's victory within the first pages, but the payoff was worth it, with a nice and nuanced story that sews like a beautiful web of connected events throughout the run where everything matters. 

I'm okay with Thomas staying alive, though broken, and with how Bane uses those phrases Bruce said to him in Batman #20, which shows how far Bane's obsesion goes, before cracking Thomas' s back. Kudos to not go for the usual path of a big, climatic fight. I think the emotional ending was more genuine to the nature of King's Batman

Mikel Janín did a good job and I wasn't bothered by the artist change with Hugo Petrus. The coloring managed to take us back to different moments in the run, even those that Bellaire didn't colored, like I Am Suicide, at the same time that works on its own

----------


## lilyrose

Ok, so I just read this new interview from today with King: https://ew.com/books/2019/12/18/tom-...tman-catwoman/

This makes it sound like the Bat/Cat book might take place as some kind of Elseworlds thing. He keeps going on about it standing alone and having complete freedom with it. I don't mind that in general, because I think he's better with these 12 issue maxi series, but what about this whole "big change" he kept promising?

If he says that the Bruce/Selina resolution from this last issue WAS going to be how they resolved things in his original 100 issue plan, then what was this supposed big change that he was amazed DC would allow? And is that still happening, because he had said like three times in other interviews, on twitter, etc. that it would happen in Bat/Cat now. And if it does happen in Bat/Cat, then is it not really canon or what? Because he says that Tynion's Batman is THE Batman book from now on.

I feel slightly duped. I wonder if DC never really wanted these changes to happen in the main canon in the first place, and now that's why they've delayed the Bat/Cat book- so that no one confuses it for the main run.

----------


## Inversed

> Ok, so I just read this new interview from today with King: https://ew.com/books/2019/12/18/tom-...tman-catwoman/
> 
> This makes it sound like the Bat/Cat book might take place as some kind of Elseworlds thing. He keeps going on about it standing alone and having complete freedom with it. I don't mind that in general, because I think he's better with these 12 issue maxi series, but what about this whole "big change" he kept promising?
> 
> If he says that the Bruce/Selina resolution from this last issue WAS going to be how they resolved things in his original 100 issue plan, then what was this supposed big change that he was amazed DC would allow? And is that still happening, because he had said like three times in other interviews, on twitter, etc. that it would happen in Bat/Cat now. And if it does happen in Bat/Cat, then is it not really canon or what? Because he says that Tynion's Batman is THE Batman book from now on.
> 
> I feel slightly duped. I wonder if DC never really wanted these changes to happen in the main canon in the first place, and now that's why they've delayed the Bat/Cat book- so that no one confuses it for the main run.


By "standing alone" I don't think it means it takes place outside of continuity, I think he means that Bat/Cat can be enjoyed and consumed as its own 12-issue maxi series, divorced from the rest of his Batman run.

Kind of like how most of Snyder's main Batman stories, like Metal, etc., can be read as standalone pieces, but you get more out of it when you look at it as part of a grander scale.

Although it is worth remembering that Bat/Cat won't conclude until next year, which will presumably be after 5G has already started, so that might also be a case of why it may feel so "separate" from everything else as it starts to eventually catch up.

----------


## bob.schoonover

> Thomas as villain is causing a lot of consternation among those who loved him in Flashpoint and Knight of Vengeance. I think leaving him around for others to play with is actually good - if someone wants to "fix" Thomas, this leaves that door open, even though I don't think he needs to be fixed.
> 
> I think you are absolutely right about the arc title "City of Bane." I think maybe something more generic wouldn't have caused the expectations - "City of Villains" or better yet, "City of the Year of the Legion of Villains Doom!!!!!" Seeing "City of Bane Conclusion" at the end of this issue was a bit of an emotional "huh". But not that big of one.


While I'm generally against killing villains, Thomas is spent as a villain (much like the previous two Thomas Waynes, they've done their arc, put Bruce through his paces, and he prevailed definitively), and any redemption would make him wildly duplicative with the rest of the Bat-family.  Sure, someone might find a good role for him someday, but I'm not really convinced he adds something new to the canvas anymore.  Bruce beat him physically and morally.  

That's an epic arc title!  I laughed way too hard.  It's pretty funny with the JL-arcs being so depressing and downward looking how hopeful and uplifting #85 was.  It stands in sharp contrast to the end of Morrison's run where he looked at the arc of where Batman was going and appeared to go in a bit of a nihilistic direction*.  

*Really, the two runs are almost completely opposite. King starts with Batman down, contemplating death and having the rug pulled out from under him where Morrison starts with Bruce supercharged and happy (ish).  Thomas Wayne appears in King's run originally as a helpful person who Bruce wants to save and then becomes the true villain, whereas Thomas is evil from the start in Morrison's but is fundamentally a joke by the time Joker took care of him. Both runs end with a death (Damian' and Alfred's) and Bruce reacting incredibly different in each.  You could even make an attempt at relating Kathy Kane's role in Inc to Catwoman in City of Bane, but that might be trying way too hard. Maybe.  I'll think about it for when we do the re-read.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Ok, so I just read this new interview from today with King: https://ew.com/books/2019/12/18/tom-...tman-catwoman/
> 
> This makes it sound like the Bat/Cat book might take place as some kind of Elseworlds thing. He keeps going on about it standing alone and having complete freedom with it. I don't mind that in general, because I think he's better with these 12 issue maxi series, but what about this whole "big change" he kept promising?
> 
> If he says that the Bruce/Selina resolution from this last issue WAS going to be how they resolved things in his original 100 issue plan, then what was this supposed big change that he was amazed DC would allow? And is that still happening, because he had said like three times in other interviews, on twitter, etc. that it would happen in Bat/Cat now. And if it does happen in Bat/Cat, then is it not really canon or what? Because he says that Tynion's Batman is THE Batman book from now on.
> 
> I feel slightly duped. I wonder if DC never really wanted these changes to happen in the main canon in the first place, and now that's why they've delayed the Bat/Cat book- so that no one confuses it for the main run.


 King has introduced changes already. Killing Alfred, making Thomas so cruel to his son and Thomas Wayne sticking around on this world [his world was blown up] Those seem like big changes to the Batman Status Quo

----------


## gregpersons

> I skimmed through that last night, but I'll need to reread again to see the telegraphing. I can see some of it, but I'm also hampered by the "Snyder and King" authorship problem - trying to figure out what's foreshadowing Metal, and what's foreshadowing KingBats


The more I've become accustomed to King's particular pacing and phrasing, it is now pretty easy to spot who wrote which pages in Rebirth #1, IMO. 

Considering how much of 85 was focused on the theme of "nothing changes. does it?" it's nice to see that was there in the beginning with the Calendar Man stuff in Rebirth #1. 

But yeah I didn't expect to find new meaning in Lucius's story to Bruce about legacy and madness, but it resonates more now that everything is laid out.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

> Can't believe these two got so horny they forgot to get married.


Sometimes dessert is so good, you completely forget you were going to have dinner first.   :Wink: 

What was everyone's favorite part of the issue? I loved when Bruce told Thomas, "You're not my father."

----------


## Chubistian

> Sometimes dessert is so good, you completely forget you were going to have dinner first.  
> 
> What was everyone's favorite part of the issue? I loved when Bruce told Thomas, "You're not my father."


I loved the whole scene where Thomas is remembering his past with Martha and then Bane enters the room and breaks him

My favorite quotes were "There are No good deaths. But there are good lives. Let's try to live one of those" and the entire page that ends with Bruce stating "and I choose Batman"

----------


## millernumber1

> While I'm generally against killing villains, Thomas is spent as a villain (much like the previous two Thomas Waynes, they've done their arc, put Bruce through his paces, and he prevailed definitively), and any redemption would make him wildly duplicative with the rest of the Bat-family.  Sure, someone might find a good role for him someday, but I'm not really convinced he adds something new to the canvas anymore.  Bruce beat him physically and morally.  
> 
> That's an epic arc title!  I laughed way too hard.  It's pretty funny with the JL-arcs being so depressing and downward looking how hopeful and uplifting #85 was.  It stands in sharp contrast to the end of Morrison's run where he looked at the arc of where Batman was going and appeared to go in a bit of a nihilistic direction*.  
> 
> *Really, the two runs are almost completely opposite. King starts with Batman down, contemplating death and having the rug pulled out from under him where Morrison starts with Bruce supercharged and happy (ish).  Thomas Wayne appears in King's run originally as a helpful person who Bruce wants to save and then becomes the true villain, whereas Thomas is evil from the start in Morrison's but is fundamentally a joke by the time Joker took care of him. Both runs end with a death (Damian' and Alfred's) and Bruce reacting incredibly different in each.  You could even make an attempt at relating Kathy Kane's role in Inc to Catwoman in City of Bane, but that might be trying way too hard. Maybe.  I'll think about it for when we do the re-read.


I personally agree that Thomas is probably better dead or destroyed. But I think it'll be a long time before someone uses him again - I mean, it was about 6 years between Flashpoint and this arc, so I'd expect another gap of that, by which time people will hopefully remember King Bats with less vitriol than they do now. Hopefully I'm right about this, and we don't have another Lincoln March situation, where they just kept using him, despite the fact that every arc he was in seemed to end with him dead.  :Smile: 

I was feeling a bit salty with that arc title.  :Smile:  I'm a bit late with my essay comparing Morrison, Snyder, and King's final issues, but a BIG element I'm going to be pulling out is that Morrison, for whatever reason, was pulling from very dark places for his final arc of Batman - his childhood experience of his parents' divorce, the changes DC was making to the universe with the n52 - and that really showed through in the work, to its detriment, I think. King, interestingly, is pulling from some of the same experiences - his father leaving his family particularly - but decides that the best thing to do is to hold his loved ones closer, stick to his vows, and find joy in that, rather than find "a hole in the world."

I think your point about Kathy and Selina in the two runs is actually REALLY key. Because for Morrison (and Snyder, importantly), Kathy, Talia, and Julia represent something Bruce can't have - and I think they argue that it's because Bruce is a child, lost in the hole, trapped by his vow. King, on the other hand, sees Selina as something that Bruce MUST grow up and seek. These romantic relationships are all revolving around the idea of maturity - as David Mazzucchelli said in the afterword to Batman Year One, Catwoman represents a maturity that the boys aren't ready for yet - but King is making the case that after 80 years, Bruce, and we as the fans, ARE ready.

And by God, I hope we are.




> King has introduced changes already. Killing Alfred, making Thomas so cruel to his son and Thomas Wayne sticking around on this world [his world was blown up] Those seem like big changes to the Batman Status Quo


I really don't think the Thomas stuff is that big of a change going forward. Thomas's letter didn't make that big of a change after Flashpoint up until The Button, so I don't see how his character evolution/change will make that much of a difference going forward.




> The more I've become accustomed to King's particular pacing and phrasing, it is now pretty easy to spot who wrote which pages in Rebirth #1, IMO. 
> 
> Considering how much of 85 was focused on the theme of "nothing changes. does it?" it's nice to see that was there in the beginning with the Calendar Man stuff in Rebirth #1. 
> 
> But yeah I didn't expect to find new meaning in Lucius's story to Bruce about legacy and madness, but it resonates more now that everything is laid out.


Oooh, if you could share which pages you think are King vs. Snyder in the Rebirth, I'd be very grateful! Another friend just sent me the page where Lucius is talking about Thomas, and that's SO interesting. King has said that he didn't plan to use Flashpoint Batman so much until after #50...but maybe he unconsciously had an idea even that early!




> Sometimes dessert is so good, you completely forget you were going to have dinner first.  
> 
> What was everyone's favorite part of the issue? I loved when Bruce told Thomas, "You're not my father."


Great question!

For me, I think my favorite parts are Bruce, Chuck, and finally Selina in Porky's bar. Selina winking and then sitting down as the comic fades to black on whether or not Campbell can kick the football is so good. Because I believe he did. And Bruce and Selina will get back up again, forever. And even if they don't - this arc will be here for me, in my heart, just as #32 will be - "Bruce, say it again. But this time, poor boy, don't demand. Please. Just ask me."




> I loved the whole scene where Thomas is remembering his past with Martha and then Bane enters the room and breaks him
> 
> My favorite quotes were "There are No good deaths. But there are good lives. Let's try to live one of those" and the entire page that ends with Bruce stating "and I choose Batman"


Awesome picks!

----------


## bob.schoonover

As a quick and dirty rubric, I think the Calendar Man stuff is King, Duke's new costume is Snyder, and the stuff with Fox is probably King but could also be Snyder or Johns' (supposedly a ghost writer on all the Rebirth issues).

----------


## bob.schoonover

> I was feeling a bit salty with that arc title.  I'm a bit late with my essay comparing Morrison, Snyder, and King's final issues, but a BIG element I'm going to be pulling out is that Morrison, for whatever reason, was pulling from very dark places for his final arc of Batman - his childhood experience of his parents' divorce, the changes DC was making to the universe with the n52 - and that really showed through in the work, to its detriment, I think. King, interestingly, is pulling from some of the same experiences - his father leaving his family particularly - but decides that the best thing to do is to hold his loved ones closer, stick to his vows, and find joy in that, rather than find "a hole in the world."
> 
> I think your point about Kathy and Selina in the two runs is actually REALLY key. Because for Morrison (and Snyder, importantly), Kathy, Talia, and Julia represent something Bruce can't have - and I think they argue that it's because Bruce is a child, lost in the hole, trapped by his vow. King, on the other hand, sees Selina as something that Bruce MUST grow up and seek. These romantic relationships are all revolving around the idea of maturity - as David Mazzucchelli said in the afterword to Batman Year One, Catwoman represents a maturity that the boys aren't ready for yet - but King is making the case that after 80 years, Bruce, and we as the fans, ARE ready.
> 
> And by God, I hope we are.
> !


In some ways, Snyder and Morrison made it easier for King to make the argument for Selina as a true love.  One can like or dislike the pairing, but it's very hard to use a modern comic to make an argument for a different love interest*.  As you say, Julie, Kathy and Talia were somewhat negated by the previous two runs.  While I liked Sasha Bordeaux, I think Rucka effectively took her off the table as a love interest, too, when she joined Checkmate.  Who's left?

Unless he says differently, I'll always assume the end of Batman, Inc took a downward turn tonally because of what Snyder had planned for Death of the Family and editorial's interest in that type of story.  The whole post-52 intent of Morrison's run (as mentioned a couple times in the original 52 TPB notes) was to lighten Bruce up and improve his relationship with his family.  The last couple issues of Inc always read to me as "this isn't what I want, but it's the nature of commercial art that it has to be this way"

*Consider the backlash to the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing, or most of the non-MJ girlfriends of Peter Parker - the argument usually boils down to "She's not Lois/MJ."

----------


## millernumber1

> In some ways, Snyder and Morrison made it easier for King to make the argument for Selina as a true love.  One can like or dislike the pairing, but it's very hard to use a modern comic to make an argument for a different love interest*.  As you say, Julie, Kathy and Talia were somewhat negated by the previous two runs.  While I liked Sasha Bordeaux, I think Rucka effectively took her off the table as a love interest, too, when she joined Checkmate.  Who's left?
> 
> Unless he says differently, I'll always assume the end of Batman, Inc took a downward turn tonally because of what Snyder had planned for Death of the Family and editorial's interest in that type of story.  The whole post-52 intent of Morrison's run (as mentioned a couple times in the original 52 TPB notes) was to lighten Bruce up and improve his relationship with his family.  The last couple issues of Inc always read to me as "this isn't what I want, but it's the nature of commercial art that it has to be this way"
> 
> *Consider the backlash to the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing, or most of the non-MJ girlfriends of Peter Parker - the argument usually boils down to "She's not Lois/MJ."


I love Sasha, but her romance with Bruce was incredibly unhealthy. I much prefer her relationship with Mr. Terrific.

Silver St. Cloud is the one people always bring up. And King brought her up in the Elmer Fudd issue. There's also, of course, Andrea Beaumont.

I think it's almost certain the Morrison always planned to kill of Damian - but it's possible that he didn't originally intend to use him as heavily as he did in Batman and Robin. The really frustrating stuff, for me (since I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who was out of DC from 2012 to 2014, so Damian was already on his way back and no one was seriously worried he'd be gone for any length of time at that point) was the dissolution of Batman Inc - the most exciting idea I've ever heard of for Batman in my entire life. Even more frustratingly, it was pointless to dissolve it, since Batman Eternal and several other series continued using assets and characters from the series for years afterwards.

----------


## Scott Taylor

"And I choose Batman"

Kind of like - "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me." - a brilliant line from Batman Begins. 

Brilliant. This issue took a couple of readings for me to really appreciate, but I think it had the right emotional notes to wrap things up nicely. Going to miss King and what he brought to the Bat Diner.

----------


## Chubistian

> I love Sasha, but her romance with Bruce was incredibly unhealthy. I much prefer her relationship with Mr. Terrific.
> 
> Silver St. Cloud is the one people always bring up. And King brought her up in the Elmer Fudd issue. There's also, of course, Andrea Beaumont.
> 
> I think it's almost certain the Morrison always planned to kill of Damian - but it's possible that he didn't originally intend to use him as heavily as he did in Batman and Robin. The really frustrating stuff, for me (since I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who was out of DC from 2012 to 2014, so Damian was already on his way back and no one was seriously worried he'd be gone for any length of time at that point) was the dissolution of Batman Inc - the most exciting idea I've ever heard of for Batman in my entire life. Even more frustratingly, it was pointless to dissolve it, since Batman Eternal and several other series continued using assets and characters from the series for years afterwards.


I had problems with the Batman Inc concept once the N52 happened. I think it didn't mix well with the rejuvenated Bruce Wayne the reboot was supposed to bring on, but that's not Morrison's fault at all. With the Rebirth continuity, I think Batman Inc works much better. Personally, at the time I would have liked for Inc to end in the old continuity, even if the reboot was already done, so Morrison could do his own thing without worrying to make it fit into the N52 canon. Now that we have a canon that allows itself to play with a larger group of previous stories and that the frame the superheroes have been working has been extended, and with a Bruce Wayne that seems more in his 30 something almost 40s, at least in King's version, it would be great to have Batman Inc still working

----------


## millernumber1

> I had problems with the Batman Inc concept once the N52 happened. I think it didn't mix well with the rejuvenated Bruce Wayne the reboot was supposed to bring on, but that's not Morrison's fault at all. With the Rebirth continuity, I think Batman Inc works much better. Personally, at the time I would have liked for Inc to end in the old continuity, even if the reboot was already done, so Morrison could do his own thing without worrying to make it fit into the N52 canon. Now that we have a canon that allows itself to play with a larger group of previous stories and that the frame the superheroes have been working has been extended, and with a Bruce Wayne that seems more in his 30 something almost 40s, at least in King's version, it would be great to have Batman Inc still working


You are absolutely right that the n52 does not work well with Inc - but the n52 writers, especially Tynion and Higgins - loved Inc (because it was an AWESOME idea) too much to let it go. And it wouldn't be truly fair to Morrison to make him finish his arc all by himself in his own pocket continuity.

I do wish we would have Batman Inc again. Are there any major connective threads from the last few years to Inc? I know that Spyral is sort of connected, but the status of Spyral is pretty up in the air at the moment, given Leviathan.

----------


## millernumber1

Well, this is interesting: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...67246682148864

A reader asks King about Gotham Girl's narration where she says she killed Bruce...and King says "Forthcoming."

Wow. I thought we'd already done the death of Batman.

----------


## lilyrose

If King said in his EW interview that the Bat/Cat conversation at the end would have happened in #100 originally, then what was the whole thing about changing Batman for a generation supposed to be? He'd said before it's still happening in Bat/Cat, but is that still true?

If they were never going to be able to marry, then the only thing it could be is a baby, right? But would that really be allowed to happen in a side book?

----------


## millernumber1

There's an interesting discussion about Bat/Cat (and how it's something of an expansion of Annual #2, which I'm thrilled about!), as well as insight into whether they are really married, and Thomas's motivation, in this podcast!

https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...s-and-riddles/

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well, this is interesting: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...67246682148864
> 
> A reader asks King about Gotham Girl's narration where she says she killed Bruce...and King says "Forthcoming."
> 
> Wow. I thought we'd already done the death of Batman.


Does that mean he'll be back for 5G... or maybe that death will be the back story for 5G...

----------


## millernumber1

> Does that mean he'll be back for 5G... or maybe that death will be the back story for 5G...


That is the question, isn't it!  :Smile:

----------


## lilyrose

> There's an interesting discussion about Bat/Cat (and how it's something of an expansion of Annual #2, which I'm thrilled about!), as well as insight into whether they are really married, and Thomas's motivation, in this podcast!
> 
> https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...s-and-riddles/


Listening to this makes me even more excited for Bat/Cat. It almost sounds like he's going to jump around their whole lives together- maybe that's how Helena Wayne gets in there. So he wouldn't have to say exactly when she's born.

I also like how he asks them if _they_ think that Bruce and Selina are married now- like leaving it to the audience's interpretation of what to make of that last scene of them. To Batman, vowing to love her forever is the same as his vow to fight criminals- he'll never break it. That I believe, and it's not like nowadays people don't accept choosing to be partners forever and marriage is just a technicality...it's just that that technicality really leaves it open for other writers to flat out ignore it if they want to. And that I don't like. I want for everyone else to have to accept it too.

----------


## DragonPiece

If the gotham girl story is still coming, I wonder if that means she will still marry Duke in the future? 




> If King said in his EW interview that the Bat/Cat conversation at the end would have happened in #100 originally, then what was the whole thing about changing Batman for a generation supposed to be? He'd said before it's still happening in Bat/Cat, but is that still true?
> 
> If they were never going to be able to marry, then the only thing it could be is a baby, right? But would that really be allowed to happen in a side book?


It's either about helena wayne coming, alfred's death or selina and bruce being "married." Pick any three and I'd consider them big chanes to the status quo.

----------


## Katana500

> If the gotham girl story is still coming, I wonder if that means she will still marry Duke in the future?


Maybe she will be married to him after a 5g timeskip? Marrying Duke probably is not that big a deal since he doesnt really have any shippers pairing him with anyone who would get annoyed.

----------


## gregpersons

> There's an interesting discussion about Bat/Cat (and how it's something of an expansion of Annual #2, which I'm thrilled about!), as well as insight into whether they are really married, and Thomas's motivation, in this podcast!
> 
> https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...s-and-riddles/


Some thoughts from listening to this

—Who has the longest uninterrupted run on "Batman" as a writer? King's 85 wasn't uninterrupted, there was the Flash crossover but it had long stretches. Morrison or Moench or Snyder would be up there

—I don't know this show, I like the hosts but it's a little frustrating to not ask King more direct questions 20 minutes in. Maybe they get to that. And there's too much emphasis, even jokingly, on the negative reactions to his run without actually considering or responding to it. I guess whatever he says would be too likely to be taken out of context in the blog worlds. I think it's ridiculous, like the BatmanNews reviews especially, some of the over-the-top hate written about it. I'm curious to what degree King takes that in. Seems like he's aware but takes it in stride, which is the right approach.

—Interesting to consider "Batman" wasn't selling six figures until Hush

—I love how the discussion of what makes Batman great and talking about gadgets and comeback moments shifted to Robin being key to the relatability. 

—This is long!

----------


## millernumber1

> Some thoughts from listening to this
> 
> —Who has the longest uninterrupted run on "Batman" as a writer? King's 85 wasn't uninterrupted, there was the Flash crossover but it had long stretches. Morrison or Moench or Snyder would be up there
> 
> —I don't know this show, I like the hosts but it's a little frustrating to not ask King more direct questions 20 minutes in. Maybe they get to that. And there's too much emphasis, even jokingly, on the negative reactions to his run without actually considering or responding to it. I guess whatever he says would be too likely to be taken out of context in the blog worlds. I think it's ridiculous, like the BatmanNews reviews especially, some of the over-the-top hate written about it. I'm curious to what degree King takes that in. Seems like he's aware but takes it in stride, which is the right approach.
> 
> —Interesting to consider "Batman" wasn't selling six figures until Hush
> 
> —I love how the discussion of what makes Batman great and talking about gadgets and comeback moments shifted to Robin being key to the relatability. 
> ...


Morrison, quite apart from the fact that he kept changing series, was constantly interrupted. Snyder had several issues of his run where he either only co-wrote it or there was like a Forever Evil or Villains Month or something issue. I think King's probably got the biggest chunks of issues. I don't know the Moench stuff well enough to say.

The show takes a bit of getting used to. I've been listening to their Tom King interviews for about 3 years now, and I really enjoy the rapport they have with him, since they're all friends IRL.

I'm not sure how much King should be expected to really deal with the over the top hate. I think he's done a good job dealing with the reasonable or even just unhappy fans on twitter. Though I know some people are really upset that he doesn't instantly agree with them and renounce his work or something.

It's funny - I actually own Hush now (thanks to the Walmart comics), but it doesn't come to my mind when I think of "things than changed Batman" - because it's such a weak story. But it did really kind of change the face of DC comics, especially since it convinced Didio of several important things - monthly comics are the heart of the industry (he says that right there in the intro to the trades), killing beloved characters is great (Harold!), making things all sexy and silly (Huntress) is the way to go, and a few other things.

If you want more gadgets, Tynion's got us covered! A new gadget every issue! (I'm actually excited - I loved the stuff he came up with in Tec).

----------


## Inversed

> —Who has the longest uninterrupted run on "Batman" as a writer? King's 85 wasn't uninterrupted, there was the Flash crossover but it had long stretches. Morrison or Moench or Snyder would be up there


I think it depends on how you would classify the runs

For Snyder, if you were just looking at the main "Batman" book, it would be 52 issues between September 2011 to May 2016. However if you were to take all of his other follow-ups and connections (Detective Comics, All-Star Batman, Metal, The Batman Who Laughs, Last Knight On Earth, etc.) then it's November 2010 to December 2019.

In comparison for Morrison, just his "Batman" is just 25 issues between July 2006 to November 2008. But adding Batman & Robin, Return Of Bruce Wayne, and Batman Incorporated, then it's July 2006 to July 2013.

For Moench it's a bit more complicated, since he has his original Batman/Detective Comics run which was 41 issues between June 1983 to October 1986, then his core Batman run which was 80 issues from July 1992 to November 1998, and then had a couple follow-up minis between 1999 and 2001.

King is of course 85 issues between June 2016 to December 2019, and adding Bat/Cat will conclude it sometime in 2021.

So they're each contenders in various ways depending how you wanna look at them.

----------


## gregpersons

After finishing that pod (going to check out old episodes with more of his interviews) I decided to finally give Heroes In Crisis another chance, I'd only read the first issue, heard the mostly negative reactions and didn't bother.

It's great! Wally's motivations help to inform Flashpoint Batman's as well, the pain of having their families and histories wiped out by the multiverse crisises. It's a better companion to King's Batman run than Final Crisis was to Morrison's. 

I loved Mark Waid's Wally and I thought this story was great for acknowledging the loss this character has been casually subjected to in order to push him aside in favor of propping up Barry. I loved the thing with the Robins and Batgirls comparing themselves to each other, each feeling like the odd man out except Damian, perfect. 

I can see how reading Heroes in Crisis issue to issue would be annoying, it's not entirely perfect, but it reads great in trade and I feel like it's pretty underrated.

----------


## gregpersons

> Morrison, quite apart from the fact that he kept changing series, was constantly interrupted. Snyder had several issues of his run where he either only co-wrote it or there was like a Forever Evil or Villains Month or something issue. I think King's probably got the biggest chunks of issues. I don't know the Moench stuff well enough to say.


Moench wrote the character for a long chunk but it was broken up. He was on 'Tec first, then Batman? Or vice versa. He was writing one or the other from right around Crisis up until No Man's Land. He wrote a number of pretty good Catwoman issues too, including "Heat" for the Legends of the Dark Knight anthology title. 




> I'm not sure how much King should be expected to really deal with the over the top hate. I think he's done a good job dealing with the reasonable or even just unhappy fans on twitter. Though I know some people are really upset that he doesn't instantly agree with them and renounce his work or something.


Absolutely. I felt like, I wanted the hosts to speak against it a bit more, in a way that he can't really as directly without being undiplomatic. But like, people have been misreading this run so badly (and Heroes in Crisis as I just discovered) and booing it so loudly, not dissimilar to the Star Wars thrashings, it's so immature and I just want someone to be like "Just because it's different from what you want it to be, doesn't mean it's poor quality." 




> If you want more gadgets, Tynion's got us covered! A new gadget every issue! (I'm actually excited - I loved the stuff he came up with in Tec).


Actually I dislike the gadgets, I much prefer King's approach to just the basic tools. I meant I liked how the podcast (very briefly) touched on the idea of Robin being the key to Batman's popularity and I think that's true, though they didn't get into it. 




> It's funny - I actually own Hush now (thanks to the Walmart comics), but it doesn't come to my mind when I think of "things than changed Batman" - because it's such a weak story. But it did really kind of change the face of DC comics, especially since it convinced Didio of several important things - monthly comics are the heart of the industry (he says that right there in the intro to the trades), killing beloved characters is great (Harold!), making things all sexy and silly (Huntress) is the way to go, and a few other things.


It took me a long time to appreciate Hush. I didn't love it when it was being released. Its popularity was a bit grating. But yeah -- it put the main "Batman" title on the map in a way that hadn't really been done except for "Knightfall." The crossovers following Knightfall tried to keep it up but it was "Hush" that led to the more concentrated high profile modern runs. 

I like it as a great fun Intro To Batman and I like that it centers Catwoman in the story. 

It just occurred to me that Loeb and King are actually pretty similar storytellers with how they pace their visuals, the repetition in the dialogue, emphasizing Catwoman... huh!

----------


## Aahz

> Moench wrote the character for a long chunk but it was broken up. He was on 'Tec first, then Batman?


No he wrote both of them at the same time.Things were a little bit different at that time Batman and TEC were basically in a constant cross over during this time. A story arc would for example start in Batman issue, continue in the in the next issue of TEC, then continue in the next issue of Batman ...
They it was iirc done like this untill Batman #400, the final issue of the Post Crisis continuity.

Once they rebooted the Batman franchise they started to give TEC und Batman to different writers who would write their separate stories.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it depends on how you would classify the runs
> 
> For Snyder, if you were just looking at the main "Batman" book, it would be 52 issues between September 2011 to May 2016. However if you were to take all of his other follow-ups and connections (Detective Comics, All-Star Batman, Metal, The Batman Who Laughs, Last Knight On Earth, etc.) then it's November 2010 to December 2019.
> 
> In comparison for Morrison, just his "Batman" is just 25 issues between July 2006 to November 2008. But adding Batman & Robin, Return Of Bruce Wayne, and Batman Incorporated, then it's July 2006 to July 2013.
> 
> For Moench it's a bit more complicated, since he has his original Batman/Detective Comics run which was 41 issues between June 1983 to October 1986, then his core Batman run which was 80 issues from July 1992 to November 1998, and then had a couple follow-up minis between 1999 and 2001.
> 
> King is of course 85 issues between June 2016 to December 2019, and adding Bat/Cat will conclude it sometime in 2021.
> ...


Except, as I said, Snyder had co-written issues in his n52 run where it was mainly written by someone else. Also, he didn't write #52 at all. There are pretty big gaps between his post-n52 series, and I don't really think Metal counts, though I understand the argument for it. I wouldn't count Heroes in Crisis for King, similarly.

If you're talking about "the period over which the writer defined Batman" - that gets even trickier - because Morrison's driving force ended when the n52 started, despite the fact that he had a full year of story left. Snyder, on the other hand, could be said to have driving at least half of Batman's energy, at least starting with Batman Who Laughs.




> After finishing that pod (going to check out old episodes with more of his interviews) I decided to finally give Heroes In Crisis another chance, I'd only read the first issue, heard the mostly negative reactions and didn't bother.
> 
> It's great! Wally's motivations help to inform Flashpoint Batman's as well, the pain of having their families and histories wiped out by the multiverse crisises. It's a better companion to King's Batman run than Final Crisis was to Morrison's. 
> 
> I loved Mark Waid's Wally and I thought this story was great for acknowledging the loss this character has been casually subjected to in order to push him aside in favor of propping up Barry. I loved the thing with the Robins and Batgirls comparing themselves to each other, each feeling like the odd man out except Damian, perfect. 
> 
> I can see how reading Heroes in Crisis issue to issue would be annoying, it's not entirely perfect, but it reads great in trade and I feel like it's pretty underrated.


Hopefully we don't get a lot of flames based on this! I actually quite enjoy Heroes in Crisis, but at this point, given how poisonous it is to most conversation in the past year, I think King is right that major mistakes were made, mostly in picking Wally. I wish there was a way to read it without people being so angry, but after all, I still get quite heated when Batman: War Games comes up, so I completely understand why they do.

There were a few writing notes that I think King stumbled on, largely in Barbara Gordon's voice (I wrote a whole piece on it when issue #4 came out, I think), but as one of my podcast co-hosts pointed out to me, that's partly because Babs has suffered seriously from a lack of consistent voice since the n52 started.




> Absolutely. I felt like, I wanted the hosts to speak against it a bit more, in a way that he can't really as directly without being undiplomatic. But like, people have been misreading this run so badly (and Heroes in Crisis as I just discovered) and booing it so loudly, not dissimilar to the Star Wars thrashings, it's so immature and I just want someone to be like "Just because it's different from what you want it to be, doesn't mean it's poor quality." 
> 
> Actually I dislike the gadgets, I much prefer King's approach to just the basic tools. I meant I liked how the podcast (very briefly) touched on the idea of Robin being the key to Batman's popularity and I think that's true, though they didn't get into it. 
> 
> It took me a long time to appreciate Hush. I didn't love it when it was being released. Its popularity was a bit grating. But yeah -- it put the main "Batman" title on the map in a way that hadn't really been done except for "Knightfall." The crossovers following Knightfall tried to keep it up but it was "Hush" that led to the more concentrated high profile modern runs. 
> 
> I like it as a great fun Intro To Batman and I like that it centers Catwoman in the story. 
> 
> It just occurred to me that Loeb and King are actually pretty similar storytellers with how they pace their visuals, the repetition in the dialogue, emphasizing Catwoman... huh!


I actually really appreciate that King doesn't get into back and forths with fans. I'm tired of the wars between creators and readers - I want to enjoy things, and if I don't, I'd rather seek out things I do than keep fighting about what I hate. Though I can sort of see the point of view that if someone's writing Batman (or Star Wars, or Justice League, or any other major title that sucks the air out of the room when discussion starts), you can't escape it, so if you hate it, there's no place you can go without being reminded. I don't agree with that point of view, but I can see why people hold it.

I think that gadgets have their thrill. So does a stripped down approach. But Robin, to me, is pretty essential. King is clearly of the O'Neil, Dixon school of thought that without Robin, Batman is just less heroic - and I think that's because Robin is essential to see two things about Batman. 1) Batman's inspirational quality. 2) Batman rebuilding the family he lost, that made him who he is. Both of these are why I think King's Tec 1000 story is so perfect.

I still don't really appreciate Hush, largely because of the factors I mentioned before about Didio, but also because...the plot at the end just doesn't make sense. Ah, well. I know people say that about King's plots, too, so maybe I just can't see it.

King doesn't fall into the Loeb trap of "arbitrarily split Bat/Cat up at the end," though.

----------


## lilyrose

> King doesn't fall into the Loeb trap of "arbitrarily split Bat/Cat up at the end," though.


That's true and I appreciate that, but now it's up to other writers to decide to break them up or keep them together. Or ignore her entirely. I wonder what's going to happen with that. They would have at least been forced to deal with it if he had married them (he tried to marry them in spirit by having her put her ring back on and say we're "forever," but that's just so easy to undo/ignore).

It would have been funny if he had really gone all the way with the whole "we're married in our hearts" thing and had them do a full on ceremony with vows to each other, just not in front of a judge. Maybe that would have made it too obvious that DC wasn't allowing the legal marriage but he was trying to sidestep it as much as possible.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's true and I appreciate that, but now it's up to other writers to decide to break them up or keep them together. Or ignore her entirely. I wonder what's going to happen with that. They would have at least been forced to deal with it if he had married them (he tried to marry them in spirit by having her put her ring back on and say we're "forever," but that's just so easy to undo/ignore).
> 
> It would have been funny if he had really gone all the way with the whole "we're married in our hearts" thing and had them do a full on ceremony with vows to each other, just not in front of a judge. Maybe that would have made it too obvious that DC wasn't allowing the legal marriage but he was trying to sidestep it as much as possible.


Well, to me, I think the fact that Tynion is clearly featuring them as being a romantic couple in his run is a good sign in that regards. It IS easy to ignore, but we're not starting out ignoring it, at least.

----------


## lilyrose

> Well, to me, I think the fact that Tynion is clearly featuring them as being a romantic couple in his run is a good sign in that regards. It IS easy to ignore, but we're not starting out ignoring it, at least.


I really wonder if that was mandated by DC because of the Bat/Cat book. I'd love to know if that's the reason.

----------


## millernumber1

> I really wonder if that was mandated by DC because of the Bat/Cat book. I'd love to know if that's the reason.


I mean, I think Tynion prefers an on-again/off-again, based on how he showran Batman Eternal, but I think he enjoys them together too. But I hope that DC is mandating them for at least the next five years.  :Smile:

----------


## bob.schoonover

> I really wonder if that was mandated by DC because of the Bat/Cat book. I'd love to know if that's the reason.


If all the 5G rumors pan out, it'd seem silly not to keep Bat/Cat around in the short term.  Let the fans be happy, make it seem like things will stick for awhile, and if DC feels like un-coupling them, just make that part of whatever undoes 5G, too (c.f. 52 and Superman/Lois).

----------


## lilyrose

> If all the 5G rumors pan out, it'd seem silly not to keep Bat/Cat around in the short term.  Let the fans be happy, make it seem like things will stick for awhile, and if DC feels like un-coupling them, just make that part of whatever undoes 5G, too (c.f. 52 and Superman/Lois).


Is the 5G rumor about Batman that Bruce is dead or retired? Because if retired, they could easily have him choose to retire to raise his daughter Helena. Fans would like that (well, not _like_ it, because no one wants him gone, but I think they would accept that as a reason. And then when he eventually comes back, Helena could be old enough to be a new, girl Robin, little sister to Damian, etc. That would work perfectly).

----------


## gregpersons

> That's true and I appreciate that, but now it's up to other writers to decide to break them up or keep them together. Or ignore her entirely. I wonder what's going to happen with that. They would have at least been forced to deal with it if he had married them (he tried to marry them in spirit by having her put her ring back on and say we're "forever," but that's just so easy to undo/ignore).
> 
> It would have been funny if he had really gone all the way with the whole "we're married in our hearts" thing and had them do a full on ceremony with vows to each other, just not in front of a judge. Maybe that would have made it too obvious that DC wasn't allowing the legal marriage but he was trying to sidestep it as much as possible.


One thing that I hope to see addressed in the Batman/Catwoman series is that a "we're married in our hearts" is still not actually a true, full commitment from Bruce. I understand King's POV on it -- his vow to Selina is as important to him as his vow to his parents -- but, to really demonstrate that he fully trusts Selina, I think it is important for the marriage to be binding in a more material way.

There's a really interesting angle to it, because Selina is... a thief. So, Bruce would be making himself incredibly vulnerable by trusting her completely by getting married legally, maybe even with no pre-nup. Does he trust her with half of his immense fortune? A full marriage partnership would mean fully sharing the assets. It would be interesting to see that explored on the page.

----------


## gregpersons

> Hopefully we don't get a lot of flames based on this! I actually quite enjoy Heroes in Crisis, but at this point, given how poisonous it is to most conversation in the past year, I think King is right that major mistakes were made, mostly in picking Wally. I wish there was a way to read it without people being so angry, but after all, I still get quite heated when Batman: War Games comes up, so I completely understand why they do.
> 
> There were a few writing notes that I think King stumbled on, largely in Barbara Gordon's voice (I wrote a whole piece on it when issue #4 came out, I think), but as one of my podcast co-hosts pointed out to me, that's partly because Babs has suffered seriously from a lack of consistent voice since the n52 started.


I don't think HIC is perfect -- Babs voice being one of a number of flaws -- but I was just surprised how much I liked it and how much I thought it did work, especially with it being Wally. I sort of knew the twist going in and was expecting to dislike it.

But I felt like Wally was actually the perfect choice? I'm not sure any other character in that role would've been quite as effective. It both makes sense that it's Wally, and it hurts that it's Wally, because we love Wally, or the Wally we want him to be. It works because he's a beloved character. I don't think it's character assassination at all; it's acknowledges the character in a better, more human way than he's had in... who knows how long, idk. My reference for Wally is the Waid/Morrison era when Linda and the kids were what made Wally different from the other JLAers.

Whoever is in that role in the story is going to be the "wrong" choice because it hurts to see the hero screw up so horribly. That's the point. So if not Wally then I don't know who would be a better replacement. You could pick a Z-lister and the story would still work I think and it would definitely be less controversial but I dunno if it would be better.

Again, book isn't perfect. It is meandering and it is messy. The ending is frustratingly unsatisfying with Wally's vague punishment. The cover-up was convoluted to an absurd degree but never clicked motivationally. Didn't think he captured the voices for Batgirl and Harley Quinn, don't think the nursery rhymes worked here. Etc etc. Plenty to pick apart in a thread about picking it apart. But in a thread for analysing what I enjoyed about it, maybe I'm the only person who felt this way but I thought Wally was an inspired choice.

To tie it back to the Batman run, HIC does improve through context some of the weak points of the run -- The Gift, and Thomas's motivations.

----------


## lilyrose

> One thing that I hope to see addressed in the Batman/Catwoman series is that a "we're married in our hearts" is still not actually a true, full commitment from Bruce. I understand King's POV on it -- his vow to Selina is as important to him as his vow to his parents -- but, to really demonstrate that he fully trusts Selina, I think it is important for the marriage to be binding in a more material way.
> 
> There's a really interesting angle to it, because Selina is... a thief. So, Bruce would be making himself incredibly vulnerable by trusting her completely by getting married legally, maybe even with no pre-nup. Does he trust her with half of his immense fortune? A full marriage partnership would mean fully sharing the assets. It would be interesting to see that explored on the page.


In real life with partners who live together, it basically is a marriage. It's not like people don't accept that as real nowadays- but I'll be curious if with Tynion's run (however brief), he really is treating it like a marriage with Selina living with him in the mansion and everything, like she was when they were engaged (it sounds like she probably is, esp with Alfred gone, and with that solicit saying that Bruce Wayne is no longer a playboy, etc).

Although...I'm guessing no one will ever address this, but I assume they're going to retcon the fact that everyone knows Selina Kyle is Catwoman? Because if Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are publicly together, then that means he's dating Catwoman and everyone knows that? And if everyone also knows that Batman and Catwoman are a couple, then, how exactly would it not be obvious that Bruce is Batman?

----------


## gregpersons

> In real life with partners who live together, it basically is a marriage. It's not like people don't accept that as real nowadays- but I'll be curious if with Tynion's run (however brief), he really is treating it like a marriage with Selina living with him in the mansion and everything, like she was when they were engaged (it sounds like she probably is, esp with Alfred gone, and with that solicit saying that Bruce Wayne is no longer a playboy, etc).
> 
> Although...I'm guessing no one will ever address this, but I assume they're going to retcon the fact that everyone knows Selina Kyle is Catwoman? Because if Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are publicly together, then that means he's dating Catwoman and everyone knows that? And if everyone also knows that Batman and Catwoman are a couple, then, how exactly would it not be obvious that Bruce is Batman?


Her secret ID does need a retcon, or some kind of convenient mindwipe like Dick Grayson's secret ID.

But yeah that's the main difference between a boyfriend/girlfriend living together and being married is the assets are legally shared. To most real-life partners, there's not usually a huge disparity in wealth between the two, but in this case, there's some storytelling opportunities if they choose to take it.

I suspect it will be explored in Batman/Catwoman. Because in a certain sense, Selina Kyle having full claim to half of the Wayne fortune is truly her biggest score. It also would've made sense to include that as an element of doubt whispered to Selina in 50, like, "do you totally trust your own motivations here?"

----------


## Mider2009

Was excited when it was announced but as it went on I saw King lacks the ability to catch my attention, his stories aren’t cohesive and worse often they make no sense or rather things about them go no where.

Snyder was a tough act to follow

----------


## gregpersons

Random thought.

I think the run would've been a little better overall if KGBeast had sniped Gordon instead of Nightwing, everything else being the same. 

Gordon only factors in the story again in The Tyrant Wing but he's notably absent in City Of Bane, and the story arc of his falling out with Batman isn't resolved. Gordon's absence from City Of Bane stands out because Gordon is the one legal representative from the city, what he's doing during this time period isn't addressed. So if Gordon goes down instead, it makes it easier for the status quo of "City of Bane" to fit in easily. 

Gordon & Alfred both being fatherly figures to Bruce would make more sense for Thomas. He's eliminating the competition to get his warped message through.

It also saves us from Ric Grayson and allows Dick to be present for the Bat-Family stuff in City Of Bane... you could basically slot him alongside Tim in COB.

----------


## Inversed

> Random thought.
> 
> I think the run would've been a little better overall if KGBeast had sniped Gordon instead of Nightwing, everything else being the same. 
> 
> Gordon only factors in the story again in The Tyrant Wing but he's notably absent in City Of Bane, and the story arc of his falling out with Batman isn't resolved. Gordon's absence from City Of Bane stands out because Gordon is the one legal representative from the city, what he's doing during this time period isn't addressed. So if Gordon goes down instead, it makes it easier for the status quo of "City of Bane" to fit in easily. 
> 
> Gordon & Alfred both being fatherly figures to Bruce would make more sense for Thomas. He's eliminating the competition to get his warped message through.
> 
> It also saves us from Ric Grayson and allows Dick to be present for the Bat-Family stuff in City Of Bane... you could basically slot him alongside Tim in COB.


It all depends on the exact timing of when everything was planned, but I think it's possible that they may have vetoed him letting anything really drastic happen to Gordon because of what Snyder was doing in The Batman Who Laughs. Which also might have been the reason why he was a non-entity in City Of Bane, cause of the Infected stuff that was going on with him at the time. 

We do know that all the Ric Grayson stuff was something DC themselves thought about doing after the fact, and King just assumed he would've been temporarily put out of commission before coming back again, so really anything could've gone.

----------


## millernumber1

> Random thought.
> 
> I think the run would've been a little better overall if KGBeast had sniped Gordon instead of Nightwing, everything else being the same. 
> 
> Gordon only factors in the story again in The Tyrant Wing but he's notably absent in City Of Bane, and the story arc of his falling out with Batman isn't resolved. Gordon's absence from City Of Bane stands out because Gordon is the one legal representative from the city, what he's doing during this time period isn't addressed. So if Gordon goes down instead, it makes it easier for the status quo of "City of Bane" to fit in easily. 
> 
> Gordon & Alfred both being fatherly figures to Bruce would make more sense for Thomas. He's eliminating the competition to get his warped message through.
> 
> It also saves us from Ric Grayson and allows Dick to be present for the Bat-Family stuff in City Of Bane... you could basically slot him alongside Tim in COB.


Well, Gordon is out of City of Bane because of Batman Who Laughs/The Infected Secret Six storyline. But there's no reason he couldn't have been the one who got shot.

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## millernumber1

> It all depends on the exact timing of when everything was planned, but I think it's possible that they may have vetoed him letting anything really drastic happen to Gordon because of what Snyder was doing in The Batman Who Laughs. Which also might have been the reason why he was a non-entity in City Of Bane, cause of the Infected stuff that was going on with him at the time. 
> 
> We do know that all the Ric Grayson stuff was something DC themselves thought about doing after the fact, and King just assumed he would've been temporarily put out of commission before coming back again, so really anything could've gone.


Haha, beat me to it.

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## David Walton

Re-reading Tom King's run from the beginning. Just finished "I Am Gotham" and wow, it's even better than I'd remembered. Right out of the gate, it's an adrenaline rush, but a character-driven one. You get a real sense of just how thoroughly decent a person Bruce really is. The way he inspires others to overcome their fear. He works well with others and he's willing to unmask in front of Claire to help her deal with the trauma of her brother's death. 

And as much as I enjoyed reading it as a monthly, I think it reads so much better in one sitting. 

And I have teared up in several parts (notably, the epilogue issue).

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## millernumber1

> Re-reading Tom King's run from the beginning. Just finished "I Am Gotham" and wow, it's even better than I'd remembered. Right out of the gate, it's an adrenaline rush, but a character-driven one. You get a real sense of just how thoroughly decent a person Bruce really is. The way he inspires others to overcome their fear. He works well with others and he's willing to unmask in front of Claire to help her deal with the trauma of her brother's death. 
> 
> And as much as I enjoyed reading it as a monthly, I think it reads so much better in one sitting. 
> 
> And I have teared up in several parts (notably, the epilogue issue).


I am hoping to enjoy the first half a bit more - as I've said, I didn't really fall for King's series until #32, and really invested after #50. I think my current plan is to start my reread next week, when we have to shutter all the old threads.

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## David Walton

> I am hoping to enjoy the first half a bit more - as I've said, I didn't really fall for King's series until #32, and really invested after #50. I think my current plan is to start my reread next week, when we have to shutter all the old threads.


I loved it the first time around, but there are bigger payoffs when you know what's coming later. King established so much early on that I missed.

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## millernumber1

> I loved it the first time around, but there are bigger payoffs when you know what's coming later. King established so much early on that I missed.


That is always the case, with King. So many things seem to be one thing, but when revealed in the context of the ending, they are something else.  :Smile:

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## Bad Witch

Here in Ontario we have been on a lockdown for about a month now (our third in a year) I decided to read Mr Miracle and have been reading Strange Adventures, Rorschach and bat/cat. 

I decided to go back and 're read his run. I still feel a lot of the same things but the nuance of his other work has helped me understand his deconstruction a bit more. I was lucky my comic shop at all five of the deluxe editions for 20 bucks buy two get one free so I got the whole run aside from what would be book six (is there plans for a deluxe six?) And I think it hit different this time. Having been exhausted from all this covid and watching the world fall apart in ways I never thought I'd see. I could see through batmans eyes easier. There are still things I don't like but the stuff I have grown to like I really fucking like it. 

I think this is a run a lot of people didint get. I also think time will be friendly to this run. I know I keep being pulled into it. I still haven't read monster men or Elmer fudd. I , well I'm finding in my life I'm 're evaluating a lot of things. perhaps I'm just going crazy or having a mid life crisis (I'm 40). It's been a weird few years ha.

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## millernumber1

> Here in Ontario we have been on a lockdown for about a month now (our third in a year) I decided to read Mr Miracle and have been reading Strange Adventures, Rorschach and bat/cat. 
> 
> I decided to go back and 're read his run. I still feel a lot of the same things but the nuance of his other work has helped me understand his deconstruction a bit more. I was lucky my comic shop at all five of the deluxe editions for 20 bucks buy two get one free so I got the whole run aside from what would be book six (is there plans for a deluxe six?) And I think it hit different this time. Having been exhausted from all this covid and watching the world fall apart in ways I never thought I'd see. I could see through batmans eyes easier. There are still things I don't like but the stuff I have grown to like I really fucking like it. 
> 
> I think this is a run a lot of people didint get. I also think time will be friendly to this run. I know I keep being pulled into it. I still haven't read monster men or Elmer fudd. I , well I'm finding in my life I'm 're evaluating a lot of things. perhaps I'm just going crazy or having a mid life crisis (I'm 40). It's been a weird few years ha.


Really glad to hear people are revisiting King's Batman! I also hope that in retrospect, King's run will be more appreciated - I think even with the destructive meddling by editorial, there's still so much good in the work.

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## Chubistian

It's been a while, but I want to know opinions of Batman/Catwoman from people who mostly enjoyed Tom King's run in Batman. I took a pause from the character and floppies, but I now have HBO Max and I'm watching again the amazing Batman TAS; plus, the first three issues of Batman/Catwoman are arriving soon to my country in spanish, so I was thinking in giving the series a try. Is it worth it?

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## millernumber1

> It's been a while, but I want to know opinions of Batman/Catwoman from people who mostly enjoyed Tom King's run in Batman. I took a pause from the character and floppies, but I now have HBO Max and I'm watching again the amazing Batman TAS; plus, the first three issues of Batman/Catwoman are arriving soon to my country in spanish, so I was thinking in giving the series a try. Is it worth it?


I'm enjoying it quite a bit! It's not quite at the level of power as the main Batman run for me, but I love the extrapolation into the future it takes, and the art by both Mann and Sharp is wonderful. Definitely give it a try!

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## Chubistian

> I'm enjoying it quite a bit! It's not quite at the level of power as the main Batman run for me, but I love the extrapolation into the future it takes, and the art by both Mann and Sharp is wonderful. Definitely give it a try!


Thanks!!! I also have to buy The Green Lantern Season Two some time this year, so it seems I will finish 2021 with a lot of comicbooks drawn by Liam Sharp, which is great!

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## Chubistian

I finally got to read Batman/Catwoman #1 and... I NEED MORE!!! 

I knew beforehand that Tom King decided to use time-jumps in an abrupt way as a narrative mechanism, so I was prepared to notice the differences between timelines and, with that in mind, the comic flows well imo. It has enough twists to keep me engaged in the story. I like to see some of that old friendship between Selina and Joker that was referenced way back in the main Batman title, just before "the wedding".

Clay Mann does an amazing job, and he seems the perfect fit for this superhero comicbook that has a high level of sexyness. Tomeu Morey in colors is amazing, as always

I'm looking forward for the next couple of issues that should arrive the next week to my country (shipping's dates are a mess currently)

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## millernumber1

> I finally got to read Batman/Catwoman #1 and... I NEED MORE!!! 
> 
> I knew beforehand that Tom King decided to use time-jumps in an abrupt way as a narrative mechanism, so I was prepared to notice the differences between timelines and, with that in mind, the comic flows well imo. It has enough twists to keep me engaged in the story. I like to see some of that old friendship between Selina and Joker that was referenced way back in the main Batman title, just before "the wedding".
> 
> Clay Mann does an amazing job, and he seems the perfect fit for this superhero comicbook that has a high level of sexyness. Tomeu Morey in colors is amazing, as always
> 
> I'm looking forward for the next couple of issues that should arrive the next week to my country (shipping's dates are a mess currently)


Ooh, nice! So glad you are enjoying it! I also really liked the connection to the Best Man arc, really makes it feel like it's actually part of Tom King's overall plan, even though it's also very distinct in many ways.

Clay Mann's work is really stunning indeed - there's so much detail and richness in composition.

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## Chubistian

I read issue #2; it has a slow pace, but I'm super intrigued by the Phantasm story in the "present", and I wonder where the "future" arc will go next, with Joker dead. I know Helena shows up in the book, but I don't know what she will deal with. I need more on the "past" storyline to know where it's headed and if it's on the same level than the other 2. I guess something will happen between Selina and Joker, that leads Selina to take a morally ambiguos action. Overall, I'm having a blast, but I wish I could get a little more of each storyline. Looking forward for issue #3

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