# Comics  > Batman >  BATMAN ETERNAL Megathread (35-48)

## CBR News

The events of BATMAN ETERNAL have changed the world of Batman for months - jump on here to see the new world order! The third act begins with a bang, as Gotham City's police have done the impossible - they've beaten Batman!


_Full article here._

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## berserkerclaw

Glad to see the events are starting to catch up to the "present". Looks good.

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## Fuzzy Cactus

Art was really nice in this issue.

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## ispacehead

This issue was so good.

I'm starting to wonder if it's Hurt.

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## RobinFan4880

When will these billionaires learn - never tie all of your personal wealth to a company's. Get an offshore account or two. Stash a few million bucks in there, enough to last you several months of good living. What's a million bucks to a billionaire? Nothing! What's a million bucks to a pauper? Everything. Sheesh.

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## Claude

Kind of a shame to see Tim, Jason, Barbara, Steph and Harper all AWOL for what feels like a long stretch in favour of Bruce And Julia. Feels like the whole "Bat Family" thing was this title's USP, and this kind of Bruce-Centric plotline could easily have been in another book.

Having said that, it was still a pretty strong installment - although personally I think they could have done without muddying the timeline in trying to tell this sort of parallel with Arkham Manor.

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## Dzetoun

> Kind of a shame to see Tim, Jason, Barbara, Steph and Harper all AWOL for what feels like a long stretch in favour of Bruce And Julia. Feels like the whole "Bat Family" thing was this title's USP, and this kind of Bruce-Centric plotline could easily have been in another book.
> 
> Having said that, it was still a pretty strong installment - although personally I think they could have done without muddying the timeline in trying to tell this sort of parallel with Arkham Manor.


I think _Eternal_ has long had that problem.  Many things have not been addressed that should have been, whereas many of the things that were included could have been better done elsewhere.  Part of that was poor management, with storylines and plot points being changed much too late, getting lost, or just plain being mishandled.  Part of it probably had to do with the fact that the original plan called for the series to be about 15-20% longer than it ended up being. Part of it was honest miscalculation, as it seems like some parts of the book, including the entire supernatural arc, probably read better in the blackboarding stage than they did when actually put down in four colors.  And part of it was editorial plans and timelines that are now leading to a move to tie the disparate Bat Books together, and which may have not been thought out properly as all the problems with storylines and themes and neglected and clashing plot points are starting to become more obvious.

Still, given that this was a brave attempt at putting together a Batman weekly more-or-less from scratch, and given that they had massive confusion at the beginning that has never been totally cleared up, they have done reasonably well.  Let's hope that the lessons from this round translate into whatever weekly shows up after the move, so some of these problems can be avoided next time.

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## MacD

Yeah, as much as I dislike Harper Row....what happened to that plot point with Red Robin and the nanomachines? 
For a weekly title, there's some serious pacing issues. 

Still loving Eternal, and it's been a blast so far and feels like it'll be able to finish on a strong note, but there's definitely some glaring problems with it.


Back to discussing the plot though:
I'm starting to wonder if Snyder & co. planned on Hush being the big bad in the initial stages, got to writing issues 30 or so and decided to make Bard take the reigns.
Though with 20 issues left, I'm sure there's still a twist or two. Plus the only thing keeping me from being totally sold on Bard being our final villain is the flash-forward in the first issue. As far as he's come, I still don't think he's going to end up finding out Batman is Bruce Wayne, much less tying him to the Batsignal and monologuing to him.

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## Aioros22

The family is bound to catch up to events, most surely. Creators have mentioned the return of Jason to Gotham and Tim and Barbara are nearby. If there are pacing issues is likely - my opinion alone - duo to many cooks in one kitchen. It`s equally part of the charm in testing this format publication, thought. 

All in all they are doing just fine.

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## jules

> Plus the only thing keeping me from being totally sold on Bard being our final villain is the flash-forward in the first issue. As far as he's come, I still don't think he's going to end up finding out Batman is Bruce Wayne, much less tying him to the Batsignal and monologuing to him.


There's also the fact that if Bard is the Big Bad, he went about it by inviting a number of people with grudges against Batman to go to Gotham and do their worst, and then presumably told Hush to hire _him_ as an underling to execute part of the plan. So he ends up as both the boss and his employee's employee.

Of course, the final villain probably _would_ go to that level of plotting complexity.

Even so, I'm thinking that Bard is probably just a quick post-Hush promotion to main threat before we move on to the final stages. He _did_ tell Vicki that he had just one last thing to do, after all, and blowing the bunker caches and disabling all of the Wayne technology appears to be it. There are still a lot of issues left once Batman survives the current cliffhanger.

I'm wondering if what happened to him in Detroit may play in to what's now happening in Gotham though. The details given have been pretty vague, so there might be more to it than "Vicki Vale discovers Jason Bard has a grudge against superheroes".

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## brucekent12

Whatever happened to Bard back in Detroit must have made national headlines to attract the big bad of this story so he could get  Bard involved in this elaborate scheme. So why hasn't anyone in Gotham recognized him or had heard his name in the past? People like Bruce. or Gordon befoe his trouble started, or even Vicki? Otherwise I'm loving this book!

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## RobinFan4880

Isn't that nano-virus still raving the slums?

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## emac

Pacing issues aside, ( and yes i'm very curious about the whole nano-virus plot, just dropped off the face of the book, last i checked wasn't Tim and Harper in hong kong with one of Bruce's old trainers?)
 But that aside,getting to my main point. I really feel that it is Hurt and The Black Glove that is behind it all. The Court of Owls are suspect also, but just recently sitting down and rereading them all, the clues seem to be all there.
 From the invitations to villians to come particpate in the destruction of Batman, to the supernatural elements of the whole arkham story line (where yes Joker's daughter was talking to the Joker who was in disguise as that doctor) where in early issues in the background of the walls of arkham there were black handprints = black glove?.  its big enough to possibly be the court, but seems insider enough to be Hurt.
 The great thing is that we will find out, and should be a very interesting ending.

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## Blacksun

> Yeah, as much as I dislike Harper Row....what happened to that plot point with Red Robin and the nanomachines? 
> For a weekly title, there's some serious pacing issues.


preview issue 36
http://www.newsarama.com/22906-harpe...ternal-36.html

I was missing this plot line too.  
 Julia let you father sleep a little lol

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## Fuzzy Cactus

Is it me, or does the dialogue feel really off?

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## brucekent12

As I said previously, I'm really enjoying the book, I've een a big fan since the beginning, but I'm just not into the Arkham stuff. If you are, more power to you, I'll be glad when the section of the story is OVER. Overall, I'll give the book a 4.5 out of 5 with the . for bringing back Stephanie and introducing Julia. Best new character in forever!

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## BloodOps

> As I said previously, I'm really enjoying the book, I've een a big fan since the beginning, but I'm just not into the Arkham stuff. If you are, more power to you, I'll be glad when the section of the story is OVER. Overall, I'll give the book a 4.5 out of 5 with the . for bringing back Stephanie and introducing Julia. Best new character in forever!


Julia Pennyworth has been around since the early 80's.

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## nepenthes

Apart from the first name the Julia Pennyworth of _Batman Eternal_ is indeed a brand new creation though. The first was a civilian and largely functioned as a love interest to Bruce Wayne, the second is elite military and active mission support and field op. IF we find out later her mother was also the French agent Marie then yeah she may have more in common with the first Julia.

Likewise Jason Bard. First guy was a private dick (never a cop), close ally to Barbara Gordon and at one point Batman's street-level "eyes and ears"  in daylight hours. If the new guy was called Henry McBumbum you'd never now he was supposed to be a New 52 Jason Bard.

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## berserkerclaw

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/ex...s/1100-150648/

*Batman Eternal #52 Solicit - Final Issue* 
This month in BATMAN ETERNAL: The epic Bat-story over a year in the making comes to a stunning end! Gotham City is in flames! Villains are running wild in the streets! Bat-tech has been corrupted! And the mastermind behind it all has put a knife in Batman’s ribs! How will the Dark Knight put an end to this nightmare…and how will it shape the face of Gotham City to come? 

4266468-bmetrl_cv51w.jpg

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## Fuzzy Cactus

dun dun dun

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## napolid

Average art, loose ends tied off, Updated Batgirl, Filler issue.

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## nepenthes

Ha at the end reveal. I'm going to end up being right about everything, aren't I? 

Also, this was good.

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## Fuzzy Cactus

Thought the dialogue felt really stiff this episode. Harper's speech at the beginning, Bard's whole motive reveal, etc. It felt off. And I really hope they're not trying to make Tim and Harper a thing. The whole Jason and Barbara "tease", as brief as it was, was cringey enough.

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## RobinFan4880

Enjoyable issue, especially as it wrapped up many  of the loose ends and teased the final act.

So Batman and Robin is officially set either before or during the early stages of Eternal (since babs was wearing her old outfit in b&r and now she is wearing her new one in Eternal). 

Tim and Harper being a couple was set up long ago, now we're getting pay off.

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## brucekent12

Not getting books til tomorrow, please everyone don't reveal Jason's motive in this thread. If someone must, PLEASE put spoiler alert so it can be avoided. THANHS!

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## RobinFan4880

> Not getting books til tomorrow, please everyone don't reveal Jason's motive in this thread. If someone must, PLEASE put spoiler alert so it can be avoided. THANHS!


To be doubly sure, just avoid this thread until you read the book tomorrow. Its not that long of a wait  :Smile:

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## Godlike13

Where is this "we" coming from with Tim? Bruce and Julia took down Hush. By the way, the end revel, bwahaha!

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## Nite-Wing

julia is getting pretty close to batman. Alfred better watch out batman's love interests have a tendency to die

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## RobinFan4880

> Where is this "we" coming from with Tim? Bruce and Julia took down Hush. By the way, the end revel, bwahaha!


Tim wants to feel included. 

Also, that last page reveal, *spoilers:*
I did not see that coming.
*end of spoilers*




> julia is getting pretty close to batman. Alfred better watch out batman's love interests have a tendency to die


Batman has already revealed his secret identity to her, they're practically in a relationship now!

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## FHIZ

> Also, that last page reveal, *spoilers:*
> I did not see that coming.
> *end of spoilers*


You should read the solicits, haha.

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## ispacehead

Another great issue of Batman: Everything and the Kitchen Sink.

Not shocked to see the way the events have unfurled. 

Still seems a little early for that last page reveal to be the big bad reveal.

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## Godlike13

Either he's the big bad, or he figured out who the big bad is.

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## RobinFan4880

> Either he's the big bad, or he figured out who the big bad is.


*spoilers:*
The Riddler does have a history of helping Batman, so he could have simply figured it out and now wants to push Batman into seeing the whole picture. Not sure I like that as much. The Riddler is a cool Big Bad.
*end of spoilers*




> You should read the solicits, haha.


*spoilers:*
I've been avoiding the solicits for that exact reason. Reading the solicits for a normal book is ok, since you are only previewing 3 issues in advance of where you are today. With a Weekly, you are seeing 12 issues ahead. that's a big difference, at least to me.  :Smile: 
*end of spoilers*

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## ispacehead

> Either he's the big bad, or he figured out who the big bad is.


Or he's just another cog in the wheel...




> I've been avoiding the solicits for that exact reason.


Too much fun to ruin with spoilers.

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## K. Jones

I like that Batman laid out the "three ongoing mysteries". Who initiated the Nanovirus? Who wrecked Arkham? Who set up Gordon?

I mean not to harp on about my Doctor Hurt theory, but last thread I did stipulate that if there ended up being "Five" players in the conspiracy that it would be a big sign pointing to the guy. And here we have five players. Falcone. Hush. And the three other mysterious high-level operators. Villains unite? What, like a club of villains? Probably a psychiatric figure with magical connections, probably somebody with Owl connections, and obviously somebody with insane high tech connections. (My ongoing thoughts are that the other three fingers in the new Black Glove are Professor Milo, Lincoln March and maybe The Wrath.)

Alright, that rampant speculation over, I'm stoked on seeing Riddler. Gotham's Moriarty finally turns up. The Napoleon of Pop Crime. The Prince of Puzzles. I like that this calls upon both his large-scale game-playing and history as a mastermind behind masterminds, but also calls upon his history of aiding the Dark Knight because boredom and ego and loving to play the game with everybody, not just Bats, and be his rival. And I'm even surprisingly cool with the old school Zero Year fedora. It's less quirky than the classic bowler hat, but I suppose a bit more fashionable.

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## Triple J

I still think Owlman is the big bad; I remember seeing him somewhere (along with Luthor). He is doing something..not sure what.

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## megaharrison

Riddler being the Big Bad would be way underwhelming when you bring back Hush.

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## berserkerclaw

That and we just had a loaf of riddle in zero year

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## toddx77

Another great issue.  Does Fox know that Bruce is Batman in the New 52?  The way he was talking made it seem like he didn't, but I thought in some older issue he knew.





> I still think Owlman is the big bad; I remember seeing him somewhere (along with Luthor). He is doing something..not sure what.


In Justice League he is working with Luthor to get Superwoman's baby when it is born.  I don't think Owlman would be the big bad since he is already having a role in Justice League right now plus Owlman seems to be a Justice League character instead of a Batman characters and Johns would have control over him.

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## Naked Bat

the riddler won't be the big bad, I hope, it would be too much of a hush rehash. Also, he was teased months ago in solicits. which I won't read anymore because they spoil too much.

I find both last issue and this one to be disappointing. The trap wasn't that exciting, and him being like "I escaped like this" wasn't either. At least, when Mr Miracle did that, kirby still showed you how he did. The Bard story is not interesting, and it makes no sense that noone, including Gordon and Batman, would search about him. How come nobody but Vicki Vale thought of searching about his past? That doesn't make sense. I can say I prefer the first act over the second one. I hope the third act will be better. I'm being kinda melodramatic, because I really enjoyed act two, but It wasn't as exciting as the first one to me.

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## Maxpower00044

So, the Riddler would be sitting there trying to solve the case if he was the "Big Bad". That makes absolutely no sense! He's obviously not the bad guy. I'm thinking it has to be Hurt or March. I also think that last page has a lot of clues as to who it could be (the bold words seem like clues).  

Man, I'll say it again; these last few issues by unknown (to me) artists, have been great.

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## Babs

It's good to see Babs in her new costume outside of her own book.

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## RobinFan4880

> So, the Riddler would be sitting there trying to solve the case if he was the "Big Bad". That makes absolutely no sense! He's obviously not the bad guy. I'm thinking it has to be Hurt or March. I also think that last page has a lot of clues as to who it could be (the bold words seem like clues).  
> 
> Man, I'll say it again; these last few issues by unknown (to me) artists, have been great.


Agreed. I think the Riddler is a going to nudge Bruce along to finding the real enemy. Maybe we'll get a cool Bat/Riddler team up for the finale! That would be cool given how much focus the Riddler has been given in the last year. 

The art is stupendous, especially considering the artistic oddities/lows that this comic has seen.

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## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I don't think that the Riddler is the big bad here either. Why would he bother to try and solve the case if he was the mastermind behind it? I agree with RobinFan. He's likely going to drop clues for Bruce to find that will eventually point to the real big bad here. I still think its going to be March myself but we'll see.

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## Maxpower00044

Eternal ends in MARCH! Coincidence? Probably, but I still think he'll have a hand in it. I do like K. Jones new Black Glove theory. That would be cool too.

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## JasonTodd428

> Eternal ends in MARCH! Coincidence? Probably, but I still think he'll have a hand in it. I do like K. Jones new Black Glove theory. That would be cool too.


I like the new Black Glove theory K. Jones mentioned as well. Perhaps Lincoln March is involved with this "new" Black Glove somehow.

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## ispacehead

March does seem the most likely I think. Particularly given the reiteration of the Zero Year Riddler this issue.

I had considered perhaps March was working in tandem with Hurt, but a new Black Glove does sound enticing.

And it does go along with the "Everything and the Kitchen Sink" theme.  :Wink:

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## brucekent12

At the very least, I think March is part of this whole thing. Snyder involving the Court of owls would certainly fit into the whole kitchen Sink theory.

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## nepenthes

Eternal #37 Preview

Selina is back.

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## K. Jones

> Eternal #37 Preview
> 
> Selina is back.


Selina name-drops the Penitente Cartel.

Get ready.

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## BloodOps

hmmm the timeline was kinda screwed up with Batgirl no having her modern costume, safe to say Batgirl and Eternal match up.

Now where the hell does that leave B&R...

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## Dzetoun

> hmmm the timeline was kinda screwed up with Batgirl no having her modern costume, safe to say Batgirl and Eternal match up.
> 
> Now where the hell does that leave B&R...


Well, it seems at the moment that _Batman and Robin_ takes place before _Eternal_.  Which means Damian is around somewhere, just no one cares to talk about it.  So Dick is dead and they don't acknowledge it and react to it, and Damian is alive and they don't acknowledge it and react to it.

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## BloodOps

> Well, it seems at the moment that _Batman and Robin_ takes place before _Eternal_.  Which means Damian is around somewhere, just no one cares to talk about it.  So Dick is dead and they don't acknowledge it and react to it, and Damian is alive and they don't acknowledge it and react to it.


I'm hoping we get something about the Bat family's reaction to Dick's death in the future or in the Secret Origins or Annual issue. 


Or the Gleason didn't get the new Batgirl costume in time and the lack of Julia in B&R right now is troubling, if its after Eternal, wouldn't Julia be around more? 

Honestly I'm still putting B&R after Eternal though, right now I just don't see how it isn't afterwards but everything is pointing towards before it.

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## Dzetoun

> I'm hoping we get something about the Bat family's reaction to Dick's death in the future or in the Secret Origins or Annual issue. 
> 
> 
> Or the Gleason didn't get the new Batgirl costume in time and the lack of Julia in B&R right now is troubling, if its after Eternal, wouldn't Julia be around more? 
> 
> Honestly I'm still putting B&R after Eternal though, right now I just don't see how it isn't afterwards but everything is pointing towards before it.


Yeah, it's a mess.  Another thing pointing to B&R being before Eternal is that Bruce still has private access to the manor grounds, as shown when he overturned Damian's marker.

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## Fuzzy Cactus

And Tim talks about the family meeting in the Bat cave for the first time since the Joker. But Scott Snyder said in yesterday's AMA that "all Batbooks take place after Eternal" so who knows.

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## Dzetoun

> And Tim talks about the family meeting in the Bat cave for the first time since the Joker. But Scott Snyder said in yesterday's AMA that "all Batbooks take place after Eternal" so who knows.


Well, we know on the face of it that isn't true, since _Grayson_ is going on simultaneously.  Of course, Snyder may not regard _Grayson_ as a Bat Book.  He seems to have a very chilly attitude to that particular undertaking.

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## Mr.Owl

I don't think the next issue#37 is about this new Catwoman aka Eiko. I bet it's going to show us Selina and Bruce being in each other's shoes: Selina becoming incredibly rich and powerful while Bruce losing everything of it. It's going to be a new experience for both of them and it should be fun.

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## Maxpower00044

After this issue, there's no way Batgirl takes place "after" Eternal. I can believe Arkham Manor and Gotham By Midnight are, but not BG. Also, I can't speak for Catwoman or Acadamy.

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## Dzetoun

> After this issue, there's no way Batgirl takes place "after" Eternal. I can believe Arkham Manor and Gotham By Midnight are, but not BG. Also, I can't speak for Catwoman or Acadamy.


Judging by Selina's situation and dialogue with Batman, _Catwoman_ is apparently after _Eternal_.  As for _Gotham Academy_, we know from _Arkham Manor_ that there is a woman called Silverlock who is a patient there, and in the latest _Academy_ Olive said her mother was a patient at a hospital that burned down "last summer," so it is evidently after _Eternal_ as well.

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## brucekent12

I could have sworn Dick has been mentioned in Eternal, as a throwaway line or something. Don't have a specific though. And I'm sure Snyder thinks of Grayson as a bat book. Tim Seeley cowrites that as well as Eternal.

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## Fuzzy Cactus

There's also Bruce and Alfred hanging out in front of the Christmas-decorated Manor. I'm guessing that Snyder just generalizing.

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## Claude

> After this issue, there's no way Batgirl takes place "after" Eternal. I can believe Arkham Manor and Gotham By Midnight are, but not BG. Also, I can't speak for Catwoman or Acadamy.


I was perfectly happy with Arkham Manor as post-Eternal, but oddly it seems to be happening _alongside_ it now.

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## RobinFan4880

> Judging by Selina's situation and dialogue with Batman, _Catwoman_ is apparently after _Eternal_.  As for _Gotham Academy_, we know from _Arkham Manor_ that there is a woman called Silverlock who is a patient there, and in the latest _Academy_ Olive said her mother was a patient at a hospital that burned down "last summer," so it is evidently after _Eternal_ as well.


If you start referring to something as happening "last summer", you are quite a ways away from it. 6 months, at least. Very interesting.

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## jules

> If you start referring to something as happening "last summer", you are quite a ways away from it. 6 months, at least. Very interesting.


Bear in mind that it's a school, and that they've clearly just started the new academic year. Maps, as a new student, is being mentored by Olive Silverlock.

So _Gotham Academy_ is probably in September, and the Arkham events that Olive's referring to would have taken place during the summer vacation, when she didn't see any of the other students.

_Arkham Manor_ would presumably be at least a couple of weeks into the future from where we are in _Eternal_ right now. Even if Bruce has already handed over the keys and blocked the stairs to the Batcave, it'd still have taken them a while to order the furnishings and equipment and do the building work to convert the Manor for its new inhabitants.

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## K. Jones

> After this issue, there's no way Batgirl takes place "after" Eternal. I can believe Arkham Manor and Gotham By Midnight are, but not BG. Also, I can't speak for Catwoman or Acadamy.


I don't think we can (if we were, I totally was) look at Batman Eternal is a contiguous chunk. But its three-act structure does sort of allow us to figure out where things fall. Stuff that was tied to the beginning, like Gordon's in jail stuff - like Manapul & Booch's Detective so far but simply can't be set in Act 3 because Wayne Manor is lost, must then take place between Act 1 and Act 2. The "New Title" stuff like Catwoman and Batgirl then must take place between Act 2 and Act 3. This is loosely, though, because frankly the transitions from Act 1 to 2 and Act 2 to 3 are pretty tightly connected without much time to breathe - for instance, it's hard to imagine Bruce having the time to do his Jack Shaw bit in Arkham Manor "in the midst" of everything going on, so I tend to think that's probably between Eternal and Endgame (along with "The Meek", which is ultimately like a prologue for it) - but obviously as Eternal plays out more we'll learn if that's overruled or not.

Gotham By Midnight's the one that I feel like is totally "After Everything". We haven't seen hide nor hair of Jim Corrigan since the Arkham debacle - plus I mean, in that one, and granted it wasn't exactly a continuity-heavy panel - it very much could've just been showing a sort of historical "example" of how Corrigan functioned - Gordon is not in jail.

I still think Hunt for Robin/Robin Rises is set BEFORE Eternal, though. Which is both baffling and kind of cool.

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## RobinFan4880

> Bear in mind that it's a school, and that they've clearly just started the new academic year. Maps, as a new student, is being mentored by Olive Silverlock.
> 
> So _Gotham Academy_ is probably in September, and the Arkham events that Olive's referring to would have taken place during the summer vacation, when she didn't see any of the other students.
> 
> _Arkham Manor_ would presumably be at least a couple of weeks into the future from where we are in _Eternal_ right now. Even if Bruce has already handed over the keys and blocked the stairs to the Batcave, it'd still have taken them a while to order the furnishings and equipment and do the building work to convert the Manor for its new inhabitants.


That's a good point. Being in school does give you a better sense of seasonal-time than being an adult.

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## JasonTodd428

> I still think Hunt for Robin/Robin Rises is set BEFORE Eternal, though. Which is both baffling and kind of cool.


I simply find it baffling overall to be honest, which makes it difficult to say with any certainty when the _Batman and Robin_ story arcs you've mentioned take place or at least from my viewpoint I can't say. Then again I'm not reading _B&R_ and haven't been for around two years now so maybe there's some detail there and I've missed it because of that.

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## RobinFan4880

> I simply find it baffling overall to be honest, which makes it difficult to say with any certainty when the _Batman and Robin_ story arcs you've mentioned take place or at least from my viewpoint I can't say. Then again I'm not reading _B&R_ and haven't been for around two years now so maybe there's some detail there and I've missed it because of that.


It has to be set either during the first act of Eternal or before because a) Batman still has Wayne Manor, b) Batman still had the money/resources to gallivant across the world, c)  Julia is now where to be seen, d) Batgirl was still in her old outfit, e) Lex is still in the Justice League (which may or may not be the case during Eternal (notice how Lex was missing in Endgame)), f) Damian/Robin is no where to be seen in Eternal, g) Red Hood and Batwoman were not acquainted in B&R but were in Eternal.

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## Dzetoun

> It has to be set either during the first act of Eternal or before because a) Batman still has Wayne Manor, b) Batman still had the money/resources to gallivant across the world, c)  Julia is now where to be seen, d) Batgirl was still in her old outfit, e) Lex is still in the Justice League (which may or may not be the case during Eternal (notice how Lex was missing in Endgame)), f) Damian/Robin is no where to be seen in Eternal, g) Red Hood and Batwoman were not acquainted in B&R but were in Eternal.


I may be speaking out of turn, but I think what JasonTodd finds baffling, and certainly what I find baffling, is point (f).  If _Batman and Robin_ is before _Eternal_, then where is Damian in all this crisis?  You could explain that by saying the Bruce has hidden him, or that he is recovering from whatever happens at the end of _Robin Rises_.  But then, how do you explain that the Bat Family never mentions Damian.  Heck, now that we know _Grayson_ is concurrent with _Eternal_, how do you explain that *Dick* never mentions Damian, particularly if the kid has been injured in some way?

Having said that, I agree with your analysis.  All of the evidence points to _Batman and Robin_ being before _Eternal_.  I'm afraid it may turn out to be another one of those cases where there is simply not any good or satisfactory explanation and they are going to have to wave their hands and duck the tomatoes.

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## exile001

> I may be speaking out of turn, but I think what JasonTodd finds baffling, and certainly what I find baffling, is point (f).  If _Batman and Robin_ is before _Eternal_, then where is Damian in all this crisis?  You could explain that by saying the Bruce has hidden him, or that he is recovering from whatever happens at the end of _Robin Rises_.  But then, how do you explain that the Bat Family never mentions Damian.  Heck, now that we know _Grayson_ is concurrent with _Eternal_, how do you explain that *Dick* never mentions Damian, particularly if the kid has been injured in some way?
> 
> Having said that, I agree with your analysis.  All of the evidence points to _Batman and Robin_ being before _Eternal_.  I'm afraid it may turn out to be another one of those cases where there is simply not any good or satisfactory explanation and they are going to have to wave their hands and duck the tomatoes.


To be fair, I guess it depends on how long Bruce is without his resources. If Snyder finishes Endgame or the next arc restoring everything, I guess it'll be easier to fit things together. From a continuity perspective right now, this is one of the trickier aspects of allowing the teams to do their own thing, with one book (Snyder's) being the 'spine' of the series.

Not that I don't prefer this take. I'm fine either way, if all books stick doggedly to a strict continuity. The latter being how I deemed things pre-New-52 (and could tie almost ANY Batman comic pre-New-52 into one continuity).

----------


## ispacehead

> If _Batman and Robin_ is before _Eternal_, then where is Damian in all this crisis?


Perhaps Damian's return is short lived.

Or perhaps, he does not remain with Batman. (Those powers might require specialized supervision...)




> I'm afraid it may turn out to be another one of those cases where there is simply not any good or satisfactory explanation and they are going to have to wave their hands and duck the tomatoes.


I doubt that the events were planned in tandem honestly, so get those tomatoes ready.  :Smile:

----------


## RobinFan4880

> I may be speaking out of turn, but I think what JasonTodd finds baffling, and certainly what I find baffling, is point (f).  If _Batman and Robin_ is before _Eternal_, then where is Damian in all this crisis?  You could explain that by saying the Bruce has hidden him, or that he is recovering from whatever happens at the end of _Robin Rises_.  But then, how do you explain that the Bat Family never mentions Damian.  Heck, now that we know _Grayson_ is concurrent with _Eternal_, how do you explain that *Dick* never mentions Damian, particularly if the kid has been injured in some way?
> 
> Having said that, I agree with your analysis.  All of the evidence points to _Batman and Robin_ being before _Eternal_.  I'm afraid it may turn out to be another one of those cases where there is simply not any good or satisfactory explanation and they are going to have to wave their hands and duck the tomatoes.


It is baffling but can be hand waived away so as not to get too "spoiler-rific" for a story that has yet to have its conclusion (the vast majority of readers do not read solicits and so are unaware of how Robin Rises will end). 

In the end, I think the weekly book that radically alters Batman's world and is clearly spaced over the time period of a few (in-story) weeks/months is difficult to integrate into an entire family of (real world) monthly books.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Judging by the latest cover of Batman and Robin (and we know that covers are always 100% indicative of the plot), I think it's safe to say that Damian's currently attending Hogwarts with Barbara and Batcow.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It has to be set either during the first act of Eternal or before because a) Batman still has Wayne Manor, b) Batman still had the money/resources to gallivant across the world, c)  Julia is now where to be seen, d) Batgirl was still in her old outfit, e) Lex is still in the Justice League (which may or may not be the case during Eternal (notice how Lex was missing in Endgame)), f) Damian/Robin is no where to be seen in Eternal, g) Red Hood and Batwoman were not acquainted in B&R but were in Eternal.


Thanks RobinFan.  :Smile:  That was just the sort of thing I needed.  

All of those things would seem to indicate that those events happen before or early in _Eternal_. The thing that keeps throwing me off though is the fact that there's been no mention Damian in _Eternal_ living or dead or at the very least some reference to the rescue mission itself. I can see why they would have not made mention of such a thing early on in the weekly and I can even see why the writers involved with _Eternal_ would not want to steal Tomasi's thunder by revealing to much but but those writers don't need to know every detail about the outcome of it to make a passing reference to it just for the sake of syncing up the two in some way. I suppose in the end it's not all that important and maybe I'm just being nitpicky here but it's like an annoying itch, ya know. Anyway thanks again for the information there.




> I may be speaking out of turn, but I think what JasonTodd finds baffling, and certainly what I find baffling, is point (f).  If _Batman and Robin_ is before _Eternal_, then where is Damian in all this crisis?


That's it exactly. Damian's not the sort to just sit around while things go to merrily to hell around Gotham and round his family. If he's around and able to help then where is he? If he's in recovery somewhere then why not reference it? Heck, if he's in recovery somewhere that would seemingly necessitate Bruce having the funds to pay for it and if he isn't going to have those funds then shouldn't Bruce mention the need to move him elsewhere even if the writers must dance around what he is moving? People have complained about Dick not being involved here but at least he has a reason. There is seemingly no reason for Damian to be likewise missing if the rescue happened before all this took place.

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

The real expert in such things http://www.therealbatmanchronologypr...-seven-part-2/ has put the chronology as: 

(1) *Batman Eternal #11-21*
(2) Robin Rises/Batgirl #33/Grayson #1-?
(3) *Batman Eternal #22-28*
(4) Gotham Academy #1
(5) *Batman Eternal #29-34*
(6) Catwoman #35 (new Catwoman)
(7) Detective #35-36 (Terminal)
(8) Batgirl #34 (new Batgirl)
(9) *Batman Eternal #35-?*
(10) Batman #34 (One-Shot)
(11) Arkham Manor #1-2
(12) Detective #37-? (Anarky)
(13) Batman 35-? (Endgame)

There has obviously been a conscious decision to not discuss Damian

----------


## Frontier

Seeing Batman punch Bard was very satisfying, as was seeing the Bat-Family together and working as a team (albeit in a somewhat different way than in Batman and Robin)  :Smile: .

Hush made a point about Batman needing a new Batmobile. He had one in Batman #34, so presumably Bruce manages to either build one from scratch/spare parts or possibly Lucius donates a new one to make amends for his helping Bard almost kill Batman. 

Seems like Harper's developing a crush on Tim...makes me wonder if Tim will even get one moment with Stephanie in Eternal at this rate? 

Looks like Riddler's figured everything out and is surprised Batman hasn't. I guess with all that's been going on, getting hit with something one after another, Bruce isn't in the best state to piece everything together even when the clues are staring him right in the face. 

I think when it comes to where Batman and Robin takes place in regards to Eternal, that will probably be something Tomasi addresses at the end of Robin Rises or in the new arc with Damian. At best, what I can see is the method through which Damian's revived keeps him completely out of commission for the entirety of Eternal and none of the characters bring him up because it would spoil that Damian was being revived at the end of Robin Rises.  

Batgirl being in her new costume gives me the impression that she's dividing her time between Burnside and Gotham, or this point in Eternal might take place a bit further in Batgirl's timeline where she's back in Gotham to help out. 

My headcanon for Detective is that it's before Eternal, even without Gordon showing up, if only because Bullock seems to have a much better relationship with Batman both in Eternal and in #34, which might be a result of character development in future Detective arcs. Or it could just be a case of different writers with different interpretations  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

To add to my previous post...here is an explanation of events:

"There must be a month-long gap in-between Batman Eternal #20 and Batman Eternal #21. Why? In Batman Eternal #21 several things are specifically mentioned regarding the extended passage of off-panel time from the previous issue. First, Julia Pennyworth will say that it has been “weeks” since she moved into Wayne Manor. Likewise, Carmine Falcone will say that he should have been extradited to Hong Kong “weeks ago.” And last and most importantly, Bullock will say that Gordon and Forbes both went to jail within a span of “some months.” The addition of the month-long gap makes Julia, Carmine, and Bullock’s statements all valid. Several items fill up a good part of the gap below: a Batman Eternal #21 note, Batgirl Vol. 4 #33, Grayson #1-2, the “Hunt for Robin/Robin Rises” saga, a Teen Titans Annual note, the Superman: Doomed saga, Red Lanterns Annual #1, and Green Arrow Vol. 6 #35."

----------


## brucekent12

A month sounds plausible as a gap for this story. And I think Snyder said there wa a couple of weeks or maybe it was a month? between Eternal and Endgame. Man, Bruce must be exhausted!

----------


## K. Jones

> To add to my previous post...here is an explanation of events:
> 
> "There must be a month-long gap in-between Batman Eternal #20 and Batman Eternal #21. Why? In Batman Eternal #21 several things are specifically mentioned regarding the extended passage of off-panel time from the previous issue. First, Julia Pennyworth will say that it has been “weeks” since she moved into Wayne Manor. Likewise, Carmine Falcone will say that he should have been extradited to Hong Kong “weeks ago.” And last and most importantly, Bullock will say that Gordon and Forbes both went to jail within a span of “some months.” The addition of the month-long gap makes Julia, Carmine, and Bullock’s statements all valid. Several items fill up a good part of the gap below: a Batman Eternal #21 note, Batgirl Vol. 4 #33, Grayson #1-2, the “Hunt for Robin/Robin Rises” saga, a Teen Titans Annual note, the Superman: Doomed saga, Red Lanterns Annual #1, and Green Arrow Vol. 6 #35."


I have it between 20 and 21 as well. I can't remember if they specifically stated as much in interviews, as far as Acts go, but we do know that Fabok issues are usually punctuation - arc starters or finishers. We can probably fit "ICARUS" between Act 1 and Act 2, and "ANARKY" between Act 2 and Act 3. Anarky features winter, Christmas time, and I suppose we can presume that this is one of his last nice moments "at home" before Wayne Manor is seized, which happens off camera in both Eternal and Arkham Manor.

So ... tentatively ...

_Futures End related stories wrap - Batwing, and the still ongoing Red Hood & Batwoman stuff_
ETERNAL ACT 1 (1-20) (FALCONE VS PENGUIN)
_ICARUS ... possibly TERMINAL, and maaayyyybe Hunt for Robin/RISES_
ETERNAL ACT 2 (20-33) (HUSH)
_ANARKY ... GRAYSON (so far) ... BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE ... CATWOMAN REVAMP ... possibly ARKHAM MANOR (with "The Meek" as a prologue)_
ETERNAL ACT 3 (34-52) (???)

I'm not touching placing HUNT FOR ROBIN/RISES until it finishes but am still listing it prior for now. To say nothing of "SUPER ROBIN", since that runs three issues before the hiatus. Gotham Academy is an interesting one because my instinct is to run it parallel with Batgirl's revamp and Arkham Manor. Gotham By Midnight is a complete mystery until we know what happens to Corrigan ... or Gordon ... in Eternal.

As a compulsive lister it pains me to split Eternal into segments because it's pretty narratively cohesive and I like to keep "the same story arc" more or less complete in the list. But exceptions must be made for a Weekly series.

----------


## Claude

> I have it between 20 and 21 as well. I can't remember if they specifically stated as much in interviews, as far as Acts go, but we do know that Fabok issues are usually punctuation - arc starters or finishers. We can probably fit "ICARUS" between Act 1 and Act 2, and "ANARKY" between Act 2 and Act 3. Anarky features winter, Christmas time, and I suppose we can presume that this is one of his last nice moments "at home" before Wayne Manor is seized, which happens off camera in both Eternal and Arkham Manor.
> 
> So ... tentatively ...
> 
> _Futures End related stories wrap - Batwing, and the still ongoing Red Hood & Batwoman stuff_
> ETERNAL ACT 1 (1-20) (FALCONE VS PENGUIN)
> _ICARUS ... possibly TERMINAL, and maaayyyybe Hunt for Robin/RISES_
> ETERNAL ACT 2 (20-33) (HUSH)
> _ANARKY ... GRAYSON (so far) ... BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE ... CATWOMAN REVAMP ... possibly ARKHAM MANOR (with "The Meek" as a prologue)_
> ...


How nice, though, that the first Trade runs up to #20. Splitting up the arc you might be, but at least you can run things neatly on your shelf!

----------


## MajorHoy

Just read #5 and #36. Is the actual destruction of parts of Gotham City by Hush and now Bard (with how many people watching and by not physically stopping him almost condoning it) a tad . . . *excessive*? Is the reveal that Hush wasn't the big bad behind it all, but aparently *spoilers:*
The Riddler
*end of spoilers* a tad . . . familiar?

I'm growing tired of this "*let's destroy Bruce's / Batman's life . . . AGAIN!*" theme . . . are they trying to copy or even out-do the recent Batman movies or something?  :Frown:

----------


## M L A

^ He's not the big bad. He just apparently knows who the big bad is.

----------


## K. Jones

Wrench thrown into OCD timeline listing when I realized "oh hell, Ragman has been appearing in Batwoman since September".

But he's just Luke's roommate in Batman Eternal, not yet Ragman.

The Unknowns arc (post-Futures End, and probably the Nocturna stuff prior) almost must take place post-Eternal, apparently.

----------


## brucekent12

I think this book is flipping fantastic. Keep it up guys!

----------


## sicsexsix

Is anyone else wondering if Catwoman mentioning the Penitente Cartel was a hint that we may be seeing Dr. Hurt soon?

----------


## K. Jones

> Is anyone else wondering if Catwoman mentioning the Penitente Cartel was a hint that we may be seeing Dr. Hurt soon?


It was my first thought, but that's just because I've been assuming Doctor Hurt for about a month anyway. Someone sent Flamingo after Spoiler. Professor Pyg was operating big at the beginning (first issue, no less). Scorpiana tried to kill the witnesses to the Falsario operation. There appear to be FIVE key parts of the conspiracy. (FALCONE, HUSH, Whoever Wrecked Arkham, Whoever Set Loose the Nanotech, Whoever Hired Falsario ... of which I suspect Milo, Wrath and Lincoln March, and a Lincoln/Doctor Hurt connection will make their "Willowwood" connection explicit in the text - to say nothing of BOTH being "Thomas Waynes")

This issue didn't have the best art. But there was a lot I liked. Selina has been a bit more "Selina" in Eternal than her own title, which is dealing with its own narrative needs and has crime-comic noir art and is trying to set up the high-stakes, so it's nice to see really Catwomany things happening in Eternal, whether it be Spy-Cats about Gotham (with almost Tesla-esque tech), or hanging on the penthouse wearing sports underwear of a similar make to the stuff she wore back in Batman, Incorporated # 1.

I like Selina one-upping a Ghost Dragon in a big way. (WHO is the Hong Kong connection?) I thought the tension with Bruce was nice.

The post-Arkham War state of the Rogues was really odd. Batman's Usual Suspects are in such a weird place right now. The alliance between Bane and Ivy is actually one I find pretty believable even if it's ironically "Straight Outta Schumacher's Movie", just because she's a gray-area villain and more of an eco-terrorist, lighter on the murder, and he's, well, Bane. But I thought ironically that Clayface being kind of schlubby and go-along was a neat character choice for him. It's hard to believe Freeze teaming with anyone, though. Guy is a cold fish, and is such a loner. I really don't think Crane would've gone within 100 feet of Bane, though. Not good for his health. But I will be interested in seeing his take on the Arkham disaster.

Killer Croc is proving to be an excellent "Wild Card". His tenuous relationship with Batman is interesting because he's a killer, but his reasons we've learned are usually more well-thought and vigilantish than the usual rogue murders (IE; Bane just kills as posturing, Crane does it to test horrific experiments, Freeze does it because he's psychotic). But the irony there is that Batman might just be wrong ... Croc "lost everything" sure, but he'd been building a whole underground homeless network, he's the new Sewer King, and since we know his killings are more statements or revenge against injustice, and he's smarter than his bestial nature belies, we could be seeing Croc turn back into the 80s "Crime Lord Croc" right under Batman's nose.

I'm saying, of the rogues, ironically, he seems to be the one who has "found himself" or got his #*#*# together lately. An alliance between him underground and Selina above could be fascinating (although who knows if the Catwoman in this issue is actually Selina or Eiko.)

I'm all for Penguin being the most visible "legit" businessman in Gotham, but I'm rooting for Croc to rule.

----------


## Claude

For those of you keeping track at home, Mr Freeze is free here having escaped Arkham - whereas he's one of the residents in Arkham Manor, so we _are_ still before that in the timeline.


But good issue, I thought. Felt like a pretty dense one that covered a lot of areas, and Bullock is always a rewarding character when writers put a bit of effort in - nice to see Croc back, and I'm always keen to keep on waiting for that one Good Poison Ivy Story that will sell me on the character. If they can do to her here what they've done with Croc, that oughta do it!


I'd be wary of reading too much into the mention of "El Penitente" though - I still can't _quite_ believe we'll see Hurt as Top Operator here, if only because he's so tied into so many of the more involved (dare one say convoluted?) bits of Morrison's run that he doesn't really lift out into other stories without taking a _lot_ of baggage with him. Seeley just seems to get a little kick out of that kind of reference - he's the only writer since Arkham War happened to even mention it, for one thing!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Selina's dialogue seems so jarring compared to her in Catwoman. I mean, it's consistent with how she's been written in Eternal, but it's just funny since Catwoman is out this same week. It's like that week where Dick was being chased by college girls in Grayson, while he was going Jack Bauer in Detective Comics.

----------


## vitamin

I love different flavours of our favourites.

----------


## sicsexsix

> It was my first thought, but that's just because I've been assuming Doctor Hurt for about a month anyway. Someone sent Flamingo after Spoiler. Professor Pyg was operating big at the beginning (first issue, no less). Scorpiana tried to kill the witnesses to the Falsario operation. There appear to be FIVE key parts of the conspiracy. (FALCONE, HUSH, Whoever Wrecked Arkham, Whoever Set Loose the Nanotech, Whoever Hired Falsario ... of which I suspect Milo, Wrath and Lincoln March, and a Lincoln/Doctor Hurt connection will make their "Willowwood" connection explicit in the text - to say nothing of BOTH being "Thomas Waynes")
> 
> This issue didn't have the best art. But there was a lot I liked. Selina has been a bit more "Selina" in Eternal than her own title, which is dealing with its own narrative needs and has crime-comic noir art and is trying to set up the high-stakes, so it's nice to see really Catwomany things happening in Eternal, whether it be Spy-Cats about Gotham (with almost Tesla-esque tech), or hanging on the penthouse wearing sports underwear of a similar make to the stuff she wore back in Batman, Incorporated # 1.
> 
> I like Selina one-upping a Ghost Dragon in a big way. (WHO is the Hong Kong connection?) I thought the tension with Bruce was nice.
> 
> The post-Arkham War state of the Rogues was really odd. Batman's Usual Suspects are in such a weird place right now. The alliance between Bane and Ivy is actually one I find pretty believable even if it's ironically "Straight Outta Schumacher's Movie", just because she's a gray-area villain and more of an eco-terrorist, lighter on the murder, and he's, well, Bane. But I thought ironically that Clayface being kind of schlubby and go-along was a neat character choice for him. It's hard to believe Freeze teaming with anyone, though. Guy is a cold fish, and is such a loner. I really don't think Crane would've gone within 100 feet of Bane, though. Not good for his health. But I will be interested in seeing his take on the Arkham disaster.
> 
> Killer Croc is proving to be an excellent "Wild Card". His tenuous relationship with Batman is interesting because he's a killer, but his reasons we've learned are usually more well-thought and vigilantish than the usual rogue murders (IE; Bane just kills as posturing, Crane does it to test horrific experiments, Freeze does it because he's psychotic). But the irony there is that Batman might just be wrong ... Croc "lost everything" sure, but he'd been building a whole underground homeless network, he's the new Sewer King, and since we know his killings are more statements or revenge against injustice, and he's smarter than his bestial nature belies, we could be seeing Croc turn back into the 80s "Crime Lord Croc" right under Batman's nose.
> ...



Pretty much agreed with everything you said.  Hurt & March have been on my suspects list since the first issue, and now that we know Hush was only a player, I'm even more convinced it's one or both of them.  And it's funny that Willow Wood was brought up in this month's issue of Batman too.  Little cross references like that are hard for me to ignore.  

The series has picked up a serious amount of steam since it kicked off and has yet to feel too drawn out or stagnant.  

Having all the participants in the Arkham War together under one roof with a tenuous alliance could be it's own mini-series in the hands of a capable writer.  They're certainly in a unique position, kind of off in the periphery, but I can see them taking advantage of the circumstances & trying to move themselves to the center stage (and the irony of seeing Bane & Ivy together on the page was not lost on me  :Wink:  ).  Catwoman as the top mob boss is refreshing change of pace for her, one of the most interesting twists to the character they've done in quite some time, but yes, Croc is most definitely proving to be a stand out.  After all the dimwitted portrayals of him that we've seen (I presume you've seen the thread on it in here?), this series may very well be one of the best things to happen to him.  He's such a cool character, but he's suffered some pretty awful misuse over the years, so it's nice to see someone (I'm gonna guess Seeley) attempting to bring him to potential.  

This might not be the best Batman saga of all time, but it has been solid & every week, without fail, it leaves me waiting to see what's gonna happen next  :Smile:

----------


## king of hybrids

is it not impossible that Hurt, if he is involved; is himself ultimately a pawn?

only one person would have known where to dig him up; and hurt in turn serves an individual with a sizable grudge against several batmen

of course for all we know he's being returned to prominence and granted actual competence solely due to him/owls being a logical addition to the gotham tv show

----------


## chachi

Its probably just me but I found this issue unreadable, and the art wasn't very good at all. Big drop-off from last issue.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Its probably just me but I found this issue unreadable, and the art wasn't very good at all. Big drop-off from last issue.


Welcome to Eternal - where the art goes from amazing to indie to bad in one issue flat.

The art was fine by my eye. Not the best, not the worst. The only thing I didn't like was the way Clayface was drawn.

----------


## ispacehead

This was fun. Not one of my favorite issues, particularly the art. (I had to look twice to distinguish Clayface from Croc on the previous page...)

The Legion of Doom -like villain gathering was silly but fun.

I'm doubting Hurt somehow. 

Maybe Hugo Strange? We haven't seen him in the New 52 yet, have we?

Meh, it's probably Lincoln March. This is Snyder's lovechild afterall...

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

What was the deal with this issue? From a great #36 to this...have to say that through all of the changeover of writers and artists Eternal has felt pretty cohesive to me. This issue was strangely out of left field, like they let Lobdell write it

----------


## brucekent12

Have to wait unil next week to pick this up, since I'm ou of town. Guess all the issues can't be great, the last few have been preety good.

----------


## Naked Bat

those last few issues have been a real letdown. eternal is losing its momentum imo. I hope it manages to get back on its feet soon.

----------


## ispacehead

We wrapped up quite a few threads over the last couple issues. This issue is just setting us up for the final run I'm guessing.

Not my favorite issue like I said, but I'm still onboard to see where we're going with this.

----------


## cgh

This all reminds me of an early '80s storyline where mayoral candidate Rupert Thorne was being manipulated behind the scenes by Hugo Strange to the general detriment of Gotham and Batman. I don't remember all the details but for some reason what's happening in Eternal brought it to mind.

So right now, I'm going with Hugo Strange. He's the consummate behind the scenes mastermind.

----------


## ispacehead

> This all reminds me of an early '80s storyline where mayoral candidate Rupert Thorne was being manipulated behind the scenes by Hugo Strange to the general detriment of Gotham and Batman. I don't remember all the details but for some reason what's happening in Eternal brought it to mind.


That stuff is what made him come to mind for me too. 

Along with those first 10 issues or whatever of Gotham Knights. (Which were a-awesome....)

I can't help but think they're trying to surprise us.

Hugo hasn't debuted yet here in the 52, has he?

----------


## Westbats

> Hugo hasn't debuted yet here in the 52, has he?


I believe his first appearance in The New 52 was in _Detective Comics_; Batman was given an anonymous tip that Scarecrow had kidnapped a kid in a warehouse, and when he arrived he found a thug who was the kid in the photo.  At the end it was shown that Strange was the one who sent Batman the note, calling the thug the "Son of Strange".

After that, I think he was in _Red Hood and The Outlaws_ as Roy's therapist.

----------


## ispacehead

> I believe his first appearance in The New 52 was in _Detective Comics_; Batman was given an anonymous tip that Scarecrow had kidnapped a kid in a warehouse, and when he arrived he found a thug who was the kid in the photo.  At the end it was shown that Strange was the one who sent Batman the note, calling the thug the "Son of Strange".


I vaguely remember that. Was he at the table of villains with lightbulb head too?

----------


## sicsexsix

> After that, I think he was in _Red Hood and The Outlaws_ as Roy's therapist.


Yep, he was!  And I was disappointed that angle got dropped entirely.  I was hoping to see it develop.  Not quite recalling that issue of Detective though, I'm gonna have to go flip through the first few issues because now I'm curious.

----------


## ispacehead

> Yep, he was!  And I was disappointed that angle got dropped entirely.  I was hoping to see it develop.  Not quite recalling that issue of Detective though, I'm gonna have to go flip through the first few issues because now I'm curious.


Now that I think about it more, I'm pretty sure it was in the back ups.

----------


## sicsexsix

> Now that I think about it more, I'm pretty sure it was in the back ups.


You're absolutely right, it was the back up in issue #5.  Eli Strange was helping Catwoman scam some Russian gangsters, and Hugo was revealed to be watching in the last panel.

----------


## Westbats

> You're absolutely right, it was the back up in issue #5.  Eli Strange was helping Catwoman scam some Russian gangsters, and Hugo was revealed to be watching in the last panel.


I apologize, maybe I got it mixed up, I wish I had my TPB's so I could verify before I posted.

----------


## sicsexsix

> I apologize, maybe I got it mixed up, I wish I had my TPB's so I could verify before I posted.


No worries, you were right about where to look  :Smile:

----------


## Westbats

> No worries, you were right about where to look


Glad to have helped then.

Everyone's bringing up a good point with the reoccurring theme of having Hugo Strange be brought into the folds of _Batman Eternal_, like Doctor Death I believe he is also a villain that fought Batman when the character was brand new.  Also, with the popularity of the _Batman:  Strange Days_ short by Bruce Timm, it would be a good time to have him as a central villain (I do support the _Black Glove_ theory).

----------


## fin5

All the Arkham Imates are in Wayne Maner,Catwoman is Crime Boss all Batmans money is frozen his assets are gone,Because he wanted to put weapen sites arcross his city how is this going to impact the Batbooks.
I know this takes place in the near Future 
The Arkham Imates story is in its own book.im Sure that will be resoved by issue 6 
Catwoman being the Crime Boss is in the Catwoman Book
How and When he put Weapon Sites Hasent been seen in the Batbooks yet
All of this can be Resoved when Batman Eternal ends Any Guess which on will Stick when this ends exept fot Julia

----------


## cranger

> All of this can be Resoved when Batman Eternal ends Any Guess which on will Stick when this ends exept fot Julia


I am not sure if the weapon caches were ever mentioned specifically but as for what sticks, the current Batman arc, Endgame, gives a few hints.

----------


## sicsexsix

> How and When he put Weapon Sites Hasent been seen in the Batbooks yet


They made it clear in Eternal that the weapon stockpiles were from when Batman Inc. was in full swing.  That's why Wayne Tech was seized, for their part in bankrolling Inc.

----------


## brucekent12

The good news is that all this will be cleared up by the beginning of April when Convergence starts. The bad news is all this will clear up by the beginning of April.

----------


## ispacehead

Straying into meanderland with today's issue and the last for me.

Maybe it's just too many characters.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Not a huge fan of these last two issues, the art is much too muddy for my tastes and Tynion once again indulges in the "Batman beats up a significant chunk of his rouges gallery without breaking a sweat"-trope. 

Tynion does do a good job in finding an in-key voice for all of the villains though, and it was nice to see Croc reducing his all time score against Bane to 1-3. Still, it's not really a good time for Bane to be thoroughly defeated like that, considering his OTT humiliation at the end of Arkham War. We're skirting dangerously close to making him the played out non-threat he was for a long time in the old continuity, which would be a great waste considering the potential shown in The Dark Knight Rises.

EDIT: Goddamnit, turns out it was a Seeley-written issue. Tynion is absolved!

----------


## K. Jones

I liked the characterization here but hated the art.

But it was really satisfying seeing Croc nerf Bane finally. I've been waiting for that since 1993.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Not a huge fan of these last two issues, the art is much too muddy for my tastes and Tynion once again indulges in the "Batman beats up a significant chunk of his rouges gallery without breaking a sweat"-trope. 
> 
> Tynion does do a good job in finding an in-key voice for all of the villains though, and it was nice to see Croc reducing his all time score against Bane to 1-3. Still, it's not really a good time for Bane to be thoroughly defeated like that, considering his OTT humiliation at the end of Arkham War. We're skirting dangerously close to making him the played out non-threat he was for a long time in the old continuity, which would be a great waste considering the potential shown in The Dark Knight Rises.


It was penned by Seeley and at this point beating Bane isn't even impressive IMO,there's nothing special about beating a jobber and that's precisely what New-52 Bane is. Between Eternal,Batgirl: Futures End and Batwoman,Bane's sole purpose has been to make other characters look impressive,the writers kept telling us how smart and strong and brilliant he is,however he has shown to be anything but,even in characterization he's been a one dimensional brute and bully.
James Tynion is the only one who can write a good Bane,Tomasi is ok.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Not sure why it's "satisfying" to see Croc beat Bane, it was just dumb,idiotic and reeks of writer fanboyism. The only reason Croc is even in Eternal is cause of Seeley,and he's been bitching about Bane since the first issue he was introduced in,looking back what exactly was Bane's story in Eternal? heck what's Crocs story? to be Catwoman's lackey the way I see it. So Bane was just dragged in to a story that HAD NO USE for him other than to see him humiliated 3 straight times again FOR NO REASON. If this was a major Croc story like Knightfall and Arkham War were for Bane then it could have atleast been understandable but it wasn't,even how the fight played out was dumb,blood loss? really Seeley as if Bane has never been stabbed and slashed even the psychology of the fight was off,Bane never considered Croc a dumbass,ugly yes but not dumb so there was no point in forcing Croc's intelligence on us. This is the sort of hack writing I expect from Johns,but looks like Seeley is going in to that territory as well,(look at Midnighter over in Grayson as another example). Time to cool down the wankery and fan service that's been creeping in to his writing.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Straying into meanderland with today's issue and the last for me.
> 
> Maybe it's just too many characters.


Meanderland? It set up both Killer Croc's and Catwoman's role for the rest of the run, re-positioned Bard-relative to Gordon, further showcased how poor Batman is now, and more. It was an important issue.

----------


## sicsexsix

While I'm glad to see Croc finally claim a victory over Bane, I've got to agree that the actual fight between the two was pretty lackluster.  It could have, and should have, been played up as a bigger deal.  Bane has been one of my favorites since the first Vengeance of..., and while I wouldn't go as far as calling him a jobber (not yet anyway), he's definitely been reduced to enhancement talent.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> While I'm glad to see Croc finally claim a victory over Bane, I've got to agree that the actual fight between the two was pretty lackluster.  It could have, and should have, been played up as a bigger deal.  Bane has been one of my favorites since the first Vengeance of..., and while I wouldn't go as far as calling him a jobber (not yet anyway), he's definitely been reduced to enhancement talent.


Bane has definitely been Worf-ed.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> While I'm glad to see Croc finally claim a victory over Bane, I've got to agree that the actual fight between the two was pretty lackluster.  It could have, and should have, been played up as a bigger deal.  Bane has been one of my favorites since the first Vengeance of..., and while I wouldn't go as far as calling him a jobber (not yet anyway), he's definitely been reduced to enhancement talent.


The fight was completely one sided,it didn't even give Bane a chance,even a die hard Croc fan (and I'm A HUGE Croc fan) would admit that Waylon is outclassed against Bane in any fair set up,physically,mentally,intellectually,fighting skills you name it Bane has every advantage. Here though Croc was played up to be a superior fighter,and more tactical. He knew Bane was gonna lift him overhead and give him the chance to sever his link to venom with just ONE bite,he delivered all his attacks with precision, he knew just where he had to bite and slash Bane to make him lose his blood in 3 panels,wow that level of skill and tactical ability would put Slade and Lady Shiva to shame. Croc didn't waste a single attack,whereas Bane was yapping about his superiority,wasting his blows,not displaying an iota of skill or dexterity,he was the literal punching bag. He's been completely played by Ivy and Alfred,and thrashed by Croc.

----------


## bat1987

Ya was surprised by the outcome of Bane vs Croc. I guess its 3-1 for bane now as someone else said. Even though Bane is very smart and calculating, he also has an enormous ego. That was his downfall here, he underestimated Croc. That being said, I think Bane outclasses him in every way, and was downplayed here. I like Seeley, but he's definitely a big Croc fan  :Smile:

----------


## ispacehead

> Meanderland? It set up both Killer Croc's and Catwoman's role for the rest of the run, re-positioned Bard-relative to Gordon, further showcased how poor Batman is now, and more. It was an important issue.


This issue didn't really have any surprises for me.  Just set up and way too much Legion of Doom.

It was pretty obvious who was going to win the croc-bane duke fest. But what a non conclusion.

"I'm going to make an example out of u." 

...by beating up and leaving u alive for no good reason.

It just seemed kinda thin.

The Gordon parts were good, if a bit redundant.

I think they just had to establish more history between them.

----------


## Godlike13

Croc is always getting jobbed, thats been pretty much all they've use him for now a days (well that and weirdly making him an AA sponsor),  so i really didn't mine seeing him beat somebody respectable for once. It about time he got one. Bane will be fine, this isn't a big blow to his rep. Just wish the fight looked better.

----------


## Punisher007

It's not a big hole in Bane's rep, because most writers over the last 20 years don't seem to know how to write him.  I do not understand why so many of them insist on portraying him as a big dumb brute.  Why is it so hard for them to get the "he's also really smart" part of his character, it makes him an even more dangerous opponent.  This, this was just another example of that crappy trend.  You'd think that_ The Dark Knight Rises_ would have led DC to start playing him up as a big threat again, but the opposite seems to have happened.

----------


## brucekent12

DC has some crazy rules, heros can't get married and the bigger you are, the stupider you are!

----------


## brucekent12

There's a preview of this Wesneday's issue up at Comic Vine. Looks great!

----------


## FHIZ

You are echo.

You're echo.

Your echo.

HAY GUISE!



Probably.

----------


## Shinomune

My theory is the other Owl/Wayne. But with Geoff Johns using Owlman in Justice League, I'm not sure, but I think that nobody is more perfect candidate with Batman Eternal (Year One) ending at the same time than FE/WE/Multiversity. We will see.

----------


## MrStatham

> You are echo.
> 
> You're echo.
> 
> Your echo.
> 
> HAY GUISE!
> 
> 
> ...


Not enough "Who? Who?"/Owl-pun lines.

----------


## ispacehead

Best issue of the year. Happy New Year kids.

----------


## king of hybrids

> My theory is the other Owl/Wayne. But with Geoff Johns using Owlman in Justice League, I'm not sure, but I think that nobody is more perfect candidate with Batman Eternal (Year One) ending at the same time than FE/WE/Multiversity. We will see.


while there probably has been some level of talking between johns and the all-powerful bat-office (johns going from "i wanna write catwoman" to sudden silence) i suspect earth-3 owlman, if he is involved, is pretty peripheral to any of hurt/strange/march's plots (probably to ensure most of wayne enterprises stuff passes to lexcorp as per JL and green arrow). ebsides, johns' owlman was "why the hell does this guy bother" v march's "i hate you so much"

so long as its not someone random like mad monk we should still be good

----------


## K. Jones

You are, echo. You are. You are. You are.

So Riddler is the fourth invite to the Party. And there's a checkerboard clue, too. But Eddie "sat this one out". Still, while I was thinking the other invitee could be someone like Milo, Riddler fits alongside Hush and Falcone as a proper Moriarty-level nemesis of Batman's.

Strong issue, good art. I still want it to be Doctor Hurt but more and more lately I've been actually wishing for the big bombshell to be like, a direct connection between our two Willowwood Thomas Waynes. Yeah, that would render the Court of Owls attack "subordinate" to a Doctor Hurt plot, but the impact and mystique of the Owls went out the window the second Snyder let Tynion do a series that peeled back all the layers and revealed a huge chunk of their secrets to us. 

Plus it's just like Doctor Hurt, a long-lived semi-immortal who knows the ins and outs of Gotham, to use other organizations, to use sub-groups of villains who have their own themed henchmen, in a secretive strike. I want Lincoln March to be the Son of Hurt.

----------


## FHIZ

On Earth 3 Owlman or Doctor Hurt, I feel like it's going to be neither of those for the reason of not stepping on anyone's toes.  We know Johns is going to use Owlman again with Lex Luthor, so Scott Snyder is not going to tell next story with him, the same way that no one was going to tell the next Joker story other than Snyder/Capullo (back when people thought Joker was behind this). It just wouldn't make sense to begin with anyways. 

Hurt on the other than, while I'll admit there's a slim chance it could end up that way in some horrible turn of events, I doubt. Scott has been so respectful of Morrison's Batman work, often citing how much he'd bounce his own ideas off of Grant, I can't see him taking focal point of Grant's entire work on Batman and minimizing him to the bad guy revealed in the final issues of this story. Instead, he'd use his own ideas, which he's already promised will be followed up on.

Lincoln March is the only suitable enemy to take the place, at least the only one who makes sense to. Unless someone completely different is thrown into the mix at the last minute, which would be poor storytelling. (I'd argue using Hurt would be equally poor given there's no need to use him right now, and he's a guy that you can't really just wash over, as we see Bruce pretty much over the events of Eternal in the start of Endgame, or not stressing them at least.) March has got reason to come back, as does Snyder to use him, unfinished business and all. Makes sense in terms of story/clues, motive, and fits within Snyder using an idea he has a certain ownership over. The "You are echo" = "Your echo" is also supplemented by Riddler saying the answer is right in front of Bruce. What's usually in front of people? A reflection. What has Owlman in most incarnations been called, a dark reflection of Batman. 

Lest we forget the time spent at Willowood in the past two issues as well as the fact that an owl is the focal point of this issue's cover, and is pretty much the last element of the Thanksgiving teaser that hasn't been touched upon.

----------


## BloodOps

The issue did come out today right? 

I checked the DC Comics app and nothing.

----------


## Dzetoun

> The issue did come out today right? 
> 
> I checked the DC Comics app and nothing.


Comixology did release the weeklies, but several hours past their usual time.

----------


## RobinFan4880

Good issue. It was great seeing the Riddler again!

----------


## Triple J

Yes, Owlman of E3. I have been saying this ever since Eternal started.....we haven't seen him in a while, and I don't think they just forgot about him.

All of this, only he can pull it off!

Lincoln March, Dr. Hurt? I am not sure. I want it to be Owlman so bad, so it will be a bit disappointing (and a bit surprising) if it wasn't him.

It makes sense too, that those villains just didn't question the person (talking to them)......since Owlman is one of the members gave them Gotham during Trinity War (I think. Didn't Gotham's crazies get invited to the big meeting at fallen JL watchtower? And wasn't Owlman the one who busted these guys out of Arkham? Or was that Blackgate? I don't remember).

----------


## Mr.Owl

People who still think Earth 3 Owlman is involved here can't stop but surprise me. Even during Forever Evil Owlman made it pretty clear that he doesn't give a damn about Batman. He spent majority of his time being obsessed with Dick. He barely acknowledged Bruce during the event. Plus being Geoff's character makes it obvious that the Earth-3 Owlman barely has place in bat titles.
In case of Lincoln  I _bet_ it's pretty obvious to decode the main idea of the things happening in Gotham in Eternal: leave Bruce with nothing and powerless, make him feel the way Lincoln did during his terrible childhood. Lots of  these moments suit the current state of things in eternal: no manor, no money, no resources, Gordon is locked, batgadgets are turned against their owner and etc. I believe that's an idea. Just rereading  Batman issues 10-11 makes it pretty obvious. 
But one more thing that wonders me about Bruce right now is his cluelessness, which makes him look pretty stupid. He doesn't have Lincoln even for an option of villians who can be behind the attacks on Gotham. Hurt is out too but, hey, the situation in Gotham looks like _too personal revenge_ against Bruce and at this point Hurt makes a very little sense unlike Lincoln.  Well generally I just can't see anyone else as variants but March. I try to image Dr. Hurt as the  mastermind and personally  I feel it being pointless and disappointing.  Plus Lincoln is a character of Snyder who needs a _serious_ development since the 2012. This's mainly Snyder's/Tynion run  and Snyder's responsible for introducing the guy in the first issue after the reboot. So his story needs a serious step forward because the guy didn't disappeared from the pages unnoticed. The Eternal looks like a pretty good  stage for his return.

 I just hope it won't be too long to finnaly see the mastermind whoever he is. The 3-4 issues before #39 were pretty  boring. The title needs to resume the exiting pace. And I want to go back seing Tim, Harper, Stephanie stories.  




> And wasn't Owlman the one who busted these guys out of Arkham? Or was that Blackgate? I don't remember).


It was Superwoman.  :Smile:  Yes, Owlman was a part of this but _ the whole_ Crime Syndicate was responsible for releasing the criminals and psychos  around, there was no particular accent about Gotham and the Owlman leading _Gotham's_ crazies.

----------


## jules

> Comixology did release the weeklies, but several hours past their usual time.


14 hours late and counting by the time I went to bed.  :Frown:  Glad they showed up in the end.

I suspect it was an oops moment. I'm pretty sure that someone must have to tick a box somewhere to get the issues to show up in the company-specific apps, since the prices and sale content don't always completely match the main comixology site, and there are a handful of titles that are missing entirely. So it's always worth double checking with the website and reporting something if you find it's been released but is missing from the DC app. They're pretty good about correcting mistakes if you report a problem.

----------


## Dzetoun

> 14 hours late and counting by the time I went to bed.  Glad they showed up in the end.
> 
> I suspect it was an oops moment. I'm pretty sure that someone must have to tick a box somewhere to get the issues to show up in the company-specific apps, since the prices and sale content don't always completely match the main comixology site, and there are a handful of titles that are missing entirely. So it's always worth double checking with the website and reporting something if you find it's been released but is missing from the DC app. They're pretty good about correcting mistakes if you report a problem.


Actually, I don't know about the DC app, as I get my stuff from the main Comixology store.  But the issues were about five hours late showing up on Comixology itself, which probably reflects a holiday lag somewhere along the line.  The stuff I get from Image showed up at its usual time, so DC digital may just be shorthanded this week.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Well it's obviously Lincoln, this story is Snyder and Tynions baby. They worked on Talon and probably want to use this opportunity to wrap up the Court of Owls saga,I'm glad to be frank.  Snyder can focus on something else in Batman. 

This issue was good, but it did make the previous one look pointless, the Bane vs Croc fight looks even more meaningless now that Bane & the others are STILL active AND working with Catwoman(Croc's boss),Seeley clearly had a chip on his shoulder that he wanted to be rid off.

----------


## Nick Miller

The art wa snot good in this issue.

Still enjoyable read, needs more tim steph and harper

----------


## brucekent12

I've thought it would be March as the big bad the whole time. Snyder has always said March would be back ,and  he is his creation. I had not thought of Hurt as the villain, as I didn't think Snyder would use one of Morrison's creations as the big bad. To me March makes more sense, and becomes much more personal for Bruce.. I can't believe no one has mentioned the ending at the newsroom. Huge surprise to me, definitely didn't see that coming!

----------


## Triple J

> People who still think Earth 3 Owlman is involved here can't stop but surprise me. Even during Forever Evil Owlman made it pretty clear that he doesn't give a damn about Batman. He spent majority of his time being obsessed with Dick. He barely acknowledged Bruce during the event. Plus being Geoff's character makes it obvious that the Earth-3 Owlman barely has place in bat titles.
> In case of Lincoln  I _bet_ it's pretty obvious to decode the main idea of the things happening in Gotham in Eternal: leave Bruce with nothing and powerless, make him feel the way Lincoln did during his terrible childhood. Lots of  these moments suit the current state of things in eternal: no manor, no money, no resources, Gordon is locked, batgadgets are turned against their owner and etc. I believe that's an idea. Just rereading  Batman issues 10-11 makes it pretty obvious. 
> But one more thing that wonders me about Bruce right now is his cluelessness, which makes him look pretty stupid. He doesn't have Lincoln even for an option of villians who can be behind the attacks on Gotham. Hurt is out too but, hey, the situation in Gotham looks like _too personal revenge_ against Bruce and at this point Hurt makes a very little sense unlike Lincoln.  Well generally I just can't see anyone else as variants but March. I try to image Dr. Hurt as the  mastermind and personally  I feel it being pointless and disappointing.  Plus Lincoln is a character of Snyder who needs a _serious_ development since the 2012. This's mainly Snyder's/Tynion run  and Snyder's responsible for introducing the guy in the first issue after the reboot. So his story needs a serious step forward because the guy didn't disappeared from the pages unnoticed. The Eternal looks like a pretty good  stage for his return.
> 
>  I just hope it won't be too long to finnaly see the mastermind whoever he is. The 3-4 issues before #39 were pretty  boring. The title needs to resume the exiting pace. And I want to go back seing Tim, Harper, Stephanie stories.  
> 
> 
> 
> It was Superwoman.  Yes, Owlman was a part of this but _ the whole_ Crime Syndicate was responsible for releasing the criminals and psychos  around, there was no particular accent about Gotham and the Owlman leading _Gotham's_ crazies.


That is true...Owlman is indeed more obsessed with Grayson. But, could it be that he is trying to get revenge? (Since Grayson is known to be dead?).

Of course...since Owlman is who he is, I don't think he will have any trouble finding that Dick is alive. Although I am not sure.

Ah, okay.

Could this be an obscure villain? Someone Batman has fought in the past (not just in new 52, at least not that we have seen)...an attempt to revitalize the character? Or perhaps a new villain?

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> The art wa snot good in this issue.


I disagree. Really enjoyed the mixture between loose, scratchy pencils and deep blacks, like Klaus Janson and Dustn Nguyen rolled into one. 

Did anyone else notice the pictures of dr. Hurt and E3 Owlman on the screens in the first panel? Probably doesn't mean anything, but it's interesting that Fawkes choose to put a small spotlight on the two most likely suspects (excepting everyone's favorite dark horse Hugo Strange) besides the MOST likely suspect. Perhaps a final, desperate act of misdirection? 

Also, Fawkes writes a mean Riddler. Hopefully he'll keep on my good side by not showing people like Bane and mr. Freeze climb into those Bat-mechas next issue.

----------


## sicsexsix

Anyone still thinking it's the Earth 3 Owlman, you have to remember he has no history or web of intricate connections in Gotham & therefore wouldn't able to orchestrate all these disparate characters in a grand scheme with a singular goal.  Aside from the fact that this is a very personal assault on Bruce & Owlman just doesn't know him well enough to know all the places to hit in order to make him break.  The only way E3 Owlman is involved is if Lex Luthor is behind the whole thing (which I doubt), since it's been revealed that they've got some kind of arrangement.  

Lincoln March and/or Dr. Hurt are the prime suspects.  Snyder has used most of the villains that Morrison created except for the one that ties them all together, so I don't see how Hurt can be written off so easily.  Even the supernatural happenings beneath Arkham can be tied back to him, blood rituals & space voodoo, and the cult he led before he got infected by the Hyper Adapter, trying to summon Barbatos.  And allying himself with Lincoln March, Bruce's "dark twin", would be poetic irony to him.  March has all the reasons in the world to do this, and Hurt is exactly the sort of guy to provide him the resources for it.

----------


## Claude

So, Tim cracks the code but Bruce divines the meaning?

I always enjoy it when a writer can find a neat way to pass skills around the Family without making a character look lesser to do it.  :Smile:

----------


## Sans Simian

> So, Tim cracks the code but Bruce divines the meaning?
> 
> I always enjoy it when a writer can find a neat way to pass skills around the Family without making a character look lesser to do it.


I also like how Penny-Two is becoming more and more capable of doing the job. Makes me wonder what Snyder's got planned for Alfred after this and Endgame.

----------


## K. Jones

> I've thought it would be March as the big bad the whole time. Snyder has always said March would be back ,and  he is his creation. I had not thought of Hurt as the villain, as I didn't think Snyder would use one of Morrison's creations as the big bad. To me March makes more sense, and becomes much more personal for Bruce.. I can't believe no one has mentioned the ending at the newsroom. Huge surprise to me, definitely didn't see that coming!


The ending was shocking to be sure, though it comes with caveats because of the weirdness of Eternal as the "spine" and the lack of cohesive timing with all the other releases - Warren Spacey is alive and well during Endgame (in the Annual).

It would be pretty ballsy to kill off Vicki Vale, even if post-Flashpoint she's not in on any bat-family secrets.

----------


## brucekent12

Endgame takes place  in the present, I don't know if Eternal takes place right before Endgame   or a few months earlier. If that is true and the events of the Annual take place before that, then it would make sese to see Warren in the book. Can't wait for next Wednesday, to see if Vicki makes it or not. That would be a big surprise.

----------


## Sans Simian

> Endgame takes place  in the present, I don't know if Eternal takes place right before Endgame   or a few months earlier. If that is true and the events of the Annual take place before that, then it would make sese to see Warren in the book. Can't wait for next Wednesday, to see if Vicki makes it or not. That would be a big surprise.


Endgame takes place after Eternal. Eternal is in the present.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> The ending was shocking to be sure, though it comes with caveats because of the weirdness of Eternal as the "spine" and the lack of cohesive timing with all the other releases - Warren Spacey is alive and well during Endgame (in the Annual).
> 
> It would be pretty ballsy to kill off Vicki Vale, even if post-Flashpoint she's not in on any bat-family secrets.


Eternal forms the "present" of Batman's world, while all other Bat-Family titles either happen in the weeks/month long gap during the middle of Eternal or takes place well after Eternal has wrapped up. The only exception to this was Batman and Robin.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Eternal forms the "present" of Batman's world, while all other Bat-Family titles either happen in the weeks/month long gap during the middle of Eternal or takes place well after Eternal has wrapped up. The only exception to this was Batman and Robin.


And _Grayson_, which seems to be locked in rough concurrence with _Eternal_.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> And _Grayson_, which seems to be locked in rough concurrence with _Eternal_.


Grayson is detached from Gotham, so that's ok.

----------


## brucekent12

It had to have been an interview at the start of Endgame , but I swore I read Snyder saying that Eyernal was over before Endgame started. Can't prove it, but I know I read it.

----------


## sicsexsix

> It had to have been an interview at the start of Endgame , but I swore I read Snyder saying that Eyernal was over before Endgame started. Can't prove it, but I know I read it.


Yeah, I did too, either on CBR or Newsarama, and he made it crystal clear that Endgame takes place post-Eternal.

EDIT:  Here it is:

http://www.newsarama.com/21585-scott...ontinuity.html

----------


## Dmreyn

If any of you all read Arkham Manor, you just got another hint that Endgame is post Eternal. Actually, it's not really so much of a hint as it is a blatant bridge between Eternal - Arkham Manor - Endgame. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody who hasn't read it, but if you have, you know I'm talking about the mysterious man in the Asylum and Clayface (aka the ending). That is all.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Yeah, I did too, either on CBR or Newsarama, and he made it crystal clear that Endgame takes place post-Eternal.
> 
> EDIT:  Here it is:
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/21585-scott...ontinuity.html





> If any of you all read Arkham Manor, you just got another hint that Endgame is post Eternal. Actually, it's not really so much of a hint as it is a blatant bridge between Eternal - Arkham Manor - Endgame. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody who hasn't read it, but if you have, you know I'm talking about the mysterious man in the Asylum and Clayface (aka the ending). That is all.


In the beginning of the arc in Batman #35, there is a asterisk that clearly states that Endgame is post Eternal

----------


## Minerboh

I would like to see this series in an omnibus collection.

----------


## Westbats

I've been thinking about it for a while, and while it is speculation, could it be possible that the Bluebird that we saw in the _Batman 28_ preview of _Batman Eternal_ is the result of nanite enhancement?  I mean, Harper was able to get into The Egyptian without any of her gear being detected.  Similarly, concealment of her taser rifle would be difficult in her backpack, while has been shown to be green before gearing up, and black afterwards.

----------


## brucekent12

Thank .. That's w you for your help in clearing that up sicsexi. Helping each other out is why this thread is successful!

----------


## Westbats

Sitting down with _Batman Eternal 40_ I'm kind of disappointed that the writers are leaving the whole "Catwoman getting Spoiler" thread loose, because that means that _Batman Eternal 41_/_Batman Eternal 42_ won't be as focused on the nanite/nanovirus plot-line.  Because Harper and Tim haven't had a whole lot of panel time through the series.  

Remember, the nanite/nanovirus plot-line was introduced in _Batman Eternal 05_, almost 10 months ago.  It feels like it got pushed aside for non-essential plot points.  If the nanite/nanovirus story was going to take so long to progress, why was it introduced in the first act?  Why not the second?

Also it feels like Batman is in there for the sake of being there.  Is it fair for me to say that _Batman Eternal_ started out feeling as though it were like a story about the people of Gotham rather than that of Batman?

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I wished there was less Batman in _Batman Eternal_.

----------


## napolid

> Remember, the nanite/nanovirus plot-line was introduced in _Batman Eternal 05_, almost 10 months ago.  It feels like it got pushed aside for non-essential plot points.  If the nanite/nanovirus story was going to take so long to progress, why was it introduced in the first act?  Why not the second?.


Basically because they needed a reasonable amount of time to pass for "Harper training", it is definitely part of the third act.

----------


## Chickfighter

It's about time Steph showed up again before I give up on this whole mess.

----------


## brucekent12

Can't wait until tomorrow, so I can pickup Eternal and Grayson. Can't wait. I've really enjoyed both, with a soft spot for Eternal, since Spoiler is in it.

----------


## ispacehead

Great issue.

As explosive as this was, I still feel like this is the calm before the storm.

----------


## Sans Simian

> Great issue.
> 
> As explosive as this was, I still feel like this is the calm before the storm.


Oh yeah. Gotham isn't near enough in flames yet.

----------


## ispacehead

> Oh yeah. Gotham isn't near enough in flames yet.


Totally. These last few issues feel like the eye of the hurricaine.

It's about to go down.

----------


## brucekent12

Just saw the preview nd it was great. I'll go right after work to pick up my books.

----------


## CatBoy

> Great issue.
> 
> As explosive as this was, I still feel like this is the calm before the storm.


This is definitely one of my favorite issues of the series - I don't think it's my absolute favorite, but in my top fave. I'm glad we're finally getting to what Batman #28 showed us.

----------


## Godlike13

Eeh, im getting bored again. Not enough Julia. Though Catwoman was cool.

----------


## InformationGeek

I really like these panels from this issue:



It feels refreshing that someone in a superhero world realizes that if there's no body, they are probably still alive.

----------


## Frontier

I hope we see more of Signalman  :Cool: .

And you gotta love Batman hunting Riddler down, despite how easy it would be to just let Nigma go and with how much Batman keeps getting bombarded, not because Riddler will tell him anything but because he wants Riddler back behind bars  :Smile: .

I don't expect Clayface impersonating Batman to end well...it looks like Batman will be busy rounding up the villains again now that they're loose and using his tech. Maybe he should call in the rest of the Bat-Family this time? 

Nice that Stephanie is finally coming back into play, with Selina connecting Spoiler's high bounty with whoever's behind all this and setting up that scene at the end of Batman #28. 

I wonder if something bad happens to Croc by the end of Eternal and that's why he's not apart of Selina's operations in the current Catwoman  :Frown: ?

----------


## AUScowboy

Hey there guys, it's good to be back! I just HAD to finally make a new account so I could get in on the discussion of Eternal and the other Bat books. Regardless of who the BIG bad is, im just glad we've gotten this far without the book going completely off the tracks (no pun intended). I've definitely been reading and enjoying all this great speculation..

----------


## Sans Simian

> I really like these panels from this issue:
> 
> 
> 
> It feels refreshing that someone in a superhero world realizes that if there's no body, they are probably still alive.


I had to chuckle at this when I read it. I like to imagine there's a missing double-take look, where he's almost thinking, "Did Freeze really say that?"

----------


## Naked Bat

So glad to read a good issue again, after the letdown of the 3-4 previous issues. I agree, this is the calm before the storm though.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> I really like these panels from this issue:
> 
> 
> 
> It feels refreshing that someone in a superhero world realizes that if there's no body, they are probably still alive.


It just feels right that Signalman is the one to express doubt, as one of the biggest losers to ever walk in a pair of shoes he'd definitely assume that things don't just go his way that easily. Great choice from Fawkes. And hey, the Furnò and Armitano art-team (another group of artists I'd never heard of before who has delivered great stuff on _Eternal_) even made that abysmal Firefly re-design look kind of cool! I'm not a huge fan of Freeze being all into the gangster-aspect of the Gotham underworld though, but that's definitely a minor complaint.

----------


## K. Jones

I thought the art here was great. Plot? Eh. I mean all the rogues not having their own agendas or agency, and kind of being forced to band together as things like "Arkham is destroyed" or "new evil threat takes over" is par for the course these days. Cluemaster and his crew were already working for one puppet master, and Scarecrow and the classics did a lot of politicking and would-be-allying during ... let's see ... White Rabbit's engineered Arkham breakout ... Joker's takeover of Arkham ... Gothtopia ... Villain's Month/Arkham War ... 

Infinite Crisis (Fake Lex, AKA Talia & Slade's Secret Society) ... Gotham Underground ... Salvation Run ... Final Crisis (Libra's Secret Society) ... 

It is weird to see Freeze so gung-ho to work with these mooks. But that's par for the course for Comic Book Freeze, who is always slumming it compared to his superior B:TAS version.

----------


## brucekent12

Twelve more issues to go, and a lot can/will happen. Keep up the great work Bat team!

----------


## K. Jones

New preview with Quinones art is lovely.

Nanovirus slave children! Building "duh duh duh SOMETHING". 

Was it too much to hope from that wide grin in the shadows that it's Doctor Hurt and he's still wearing a rictus? Mwuhahahaha. I'm eager to see. With 12 issues to go there should be callbacks and full circles for earlier elements that haven't been revisited much in the Second Act. Sergei ... Harper's father, Marcus ... um ... the big guy from Hong Kong? Professor Pyg? I'm curious if, when and how any of them might come back into play.

----------


## Westbats

Yes!  I'm glad that Tim and Harper are getting the spotlight this week, it's been far too long since they last showed up for anything substantial.  Now the question remains, what is the purpose of the nano virus, and who's behind it.

----------


## brucekent12

Can't wait, loving this book!

----------


## napolid

Preview

BATMAN ETERNAL #41
Written by Kyle Higgins, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Tim Seeley, and Ray Fawkes
Script by Kyle Higgins
Art by Joe Quinones

----------


## ispacehead

Not easy to skip these previews but these issues are too short to spoil.

----------


## cgh

Any new thoughts on who the Big Bad is? I was thinking Hugo Strange but now, after the Riddler's comments, I'm not so sure. He went and hid in a cabin in the snow, claiming that to do so was "perfectly logical". So someone who doesn't like the cold? Or is that me being way too literal?

I liked the riddles Batman had to crack during that part of the story.

----------


## ispacehead

Lincoln March seems most likely to me still.

----------


## Sans Simian

> Any new thoughts on who the Big Bad is? I was thinking Hugo Strange but now, after the Riddler's comments, I'm not so sure. He went and hid in a cabin in the snow, claiming that to do so was "perfectly logical". So someone who doesn't like the cold? Or is that me being way too literal?
> 
> I liked the riddles Batman had to crack during that part of the story.


I'm putting my early money on a return of Lincoln March/Court of Owls. You don't create a massive new enemy like them, use them for one storyline, and never touch on them again.

----------


## RobinFan4880

Lincoln March/Court of Owls seems incredibly likely. No one else has any set up.

----------


## Claude

> Lincoln March seems most likely to me still.


Ditto. 

Are we still expecting Calvin Rose to turn up, do we think? He was in the original promo art, but Blonde Dick At Batsgiving is clue enough that things have changed....

----------


## Dzetoun

> Lincoln March/Court of Owls seems incredibly likely. No one else has any set up.


Yes.  And as the Talons are vulnerable to cold, the location of Riddler's hideout makes sense.

----------


## Sans Simian

> Yes.  And as the Talons are vulnerable to cold, the location of Riddler's hideout makes sense.


Excellent point. I can't believe I missed that when I was coming up with my reasons why.

----------


## charliehustle415

> Yes.  And as the Talons are vulnerable to cold, the location of Riddler's hideout makes sense.


Whoa. I never even thought of that, great find!

----------


## Westbats

> Yes.  And as the Talons are vulnerable to cold, the location of Riddler's hideout makes sense.


With the state of disarray The Court of Owls was left in after _Talon_ concluded (and the majority of the Talon dismembered by Bane in _Forever Evil:  Arkham Wars_, I wonder if Lincoln is working solo or if he's developed the *Neo-Talons* that were mentioned in passing in _Batman_ issue 36?

Regardless of whether or not he's using Talons, March still has the Talon-serum in him, meaning Bruce can use that to his advantage.

Though that begs the question, will DC wait until the second or third week of March to reveal that Lincoln March is the central figure in all of this?  The *Ides of March* (March 15) doesn't fall on a publishing day this year, so they wouldn't be able to make that simile.

----------


## Frontier

> Yes.  And as the Talons are vulnerable to cold, the location of Riddler's hideout makes sense.


Oh man, that does make so much sense! Especially considering Riddler knows whose behind everything. Maybe that will help Batman finally piece together the identity of the person behind everything?

----------


## brucekent12

> Oh man, that does make so much sense! Especially considering Riddler knows whose behind everything. Maybe that will help Batman finally piece together the identity of the person behind everything?


I agree, March and the Owls for the win.

----------


## tako

For some reason, March isn't on Batman's possible list of people doin bad things:



Luthor, E3 Owlman, Dr. Hurt, Ra's, Joker, Hush...and that other dude.

----------


## Bookem Danno

> So glad to read a good issue again, after the letdown of the 3-4 previous issues. I agree, this is the calm before the storm though.


Agreed. Last issue was particularly blah. My opinion of the MEGATHREAD idea is as blah, too, it would be so much better searching for specific issue thread if they kept their own URLs.




> I had to chuckle at this when I read it. I like to imagine there's a missing double-take look, where he's almost thinking, "Did Freeze really say that?"


It was fun to see such a diverse Rogues Roll Call given the fact that they're out and for the most part they're birds of a feather. 'Birds of a Feather', ha, there's a title suggestion/issue pitch for ya!  :Wink: 




> New preview with Quinones art is lovely.
> 
> Nanovirus slave children! Building "duh duh duh SOMETHING". 
> 
> Was it too much to hope from that wide grin in the shadows that it's Doctor Hurt and he's still wearing a rictus? Mwuhahahaha. I'm eager to see. With 12 issues to go there should be callbacks and full circles for earlier elements that haven't been revisited much in the Second Act. Sergei ... Harper's father, Marcus ... um ... the big guy from Hong Kong? Professor Pyg? I'm curious if, when and how any of them might come back into play.


Is THAT what's going on with those kiddies on the last page? It was unclear to me. Also, are you saying Batman Eternal is only a 52 issue long series/project?

----------


## Matt Krotzer

I was very glad to see the new issue referencing Stephanie Brown again, even if it was a very oblique reference. It seems like a long time since we touched on her part of the story. 

And yes, Eternal's running 52 issues, then taking a break while they get things adjusted a bit for a second run.

----------


## brucekent12

Its been several issues since I've seen Stephanie, I hope he returns this week. I miss her! Im guessing the return of Eternl will be maybe July or August, they should be far enough along by then to release it. At least I hope so.

----------


## napolid

I see Batgirl's personality has changed to match her book.

----------


## cgh

> Yes.  And as the Talons are vulnerable to cold, the location of Riddler's hideout makes sense.


*smacks head* Of course. You guys are almost certainly right, it's those pesky Owls.

----------


## Godlike13

After seeing the title of the next issue, im now thinking we're going to be getting a new BOP book with Harper.

----------


## ispacehead

> After seeing the title of the next issue, im now thinking we're going to be getting a new BOP book with Harper.


I think they were just poking us, but maybe.

Great issue in any event. If those last few pages, don't make you LOVE Harper, I don't think anything can.

----------


## Claude

Now this, _this_, is what I was hoping for from this book all along.

Not the most literary, a little hokey, and the art wasn't the best... But this was an issue of Bat Family Adventures, with everyone with a disctinct voice.

----------


## Nick Miller

> Now this, _this_, is what I was hoping for from this book all along.
> 
> Not the most literary, a little hokey, and the art wasn't the best... But this was an issue of Bat Family Adventures, with everyone with a disctinct voice.


exactly.

One thing was missing. Tim falling in a vat of acid, and being rescued, but alas his uniform is no more! Will someone at DC think of the children?

----------


## nepenthes

This issue was a reminder of how the art has slipped throught out the series. There was a seriously rough patch for a while there, and when you get someone like Quinones on, wow, it's alive again. Storywise however this was no better or no worse than any from the recent stretch. I'm very ready for this to rush headlong into a conclusion.

----------


## brucekent12

Cant wait to get to the LCS tomorrow. Eternal is my first choice to read every week.

----------


## BloodOps

Why can't they do this more often on this book?

This was fantastic. 


Would love for Harper to make a Nightwing reference but I don't see it happening.

----------


## godisawesome

I'm getting a little annoyed at the pacing for some of these storylines, and I'm starting to get irritated at Harper and Steph's storylines and portrayal because of their similarities and bare minimum of appearances. Selina had three or so issues leading up to her deciding to take over, and then we skip over her actual assumption of power both here and in her book. We spend several issues with the Blackfyre plot, but most of it is just repitition. We have Bane team up with ALFRED, but only for maybe one page of actually entertaining interaction between them.

And at the same time, we've got two young female heroes who have loser criminals for fathers, get dragged into the villains' plots, disappear for huge number of issues, and with one of them being extremely derivative of the other. 

This book and story needed a full time editor, and it didn't get it.

And yet, it's still pretty good.

----------


## brucekent12

As I said in another post, weeklies are like tv series, some episodes are good while others are bad an inconsistent. I'm happy, that in my opinion we have a pretty good group of stories that are starting to merge nicely.

----------


## jules

It's uneven, it's true, and I'm sure that the pacing is one of the aspects they're likely to tweak before the second run starts.

But even while it's frustrating to not see a particular character's storyline for weeks or months, I do appreciate that there's somewhere they can have a storyline at all. Without Eternal the characters who don't have books of their own could go missing for years at a time.

And I do like the feeling that even on months where there's a fifth week, or weeks where there isn't another title I follow being published, I'll always have one book to read.

----------


## K. Jones

> It's uneven, it's true, and I'm sure that the pacing is one of the aspects they're likely to tweak before the second run starts.
> 
> But even while it's frustrating to not see a particular character's storyline for weeks or months, I do appreciate that there's somewhere they can have a storyline at all. Without Eternal the characters who don't have books of their own could go missing for years at a time.
> 
> And I do like the feeling that even on months where there's a fifth week, or weeks where there isn't another title I follow being published, I'll always have one book to read.


It's funny because it feels like they tried to hedge their bets with the uneven pacing in the first place by installing that whole "three-parter" angle that has really gotten away from them. At first it was all about three-issue pieces. The first three Fabok issues to set the tone. The next four jumped around, but then there were three chaotic Penguin v. Falcone v. Pyg issues with Batman and Catwoman. Then three Arkham issues with Nguyen art. Then three South America issues. And so on and so on.

I'm not sure if we were to track the last few months we'd get that vibe.

----------


## jules

> It's funny because it feels like they tried to hedge their bets with the uneven pacing in the first place by installing that whole "three-parter" angle that has really gotten away from them. At first it was all about three-issue pieces. The first three Fabok issues to set the tone. The next four jumped around, but then there were three chaotic Penguin v. Falcone v. Pyg issues with Batman and Catwoman. Then three Arkham issues with Nguyen art. Then three South America issues. And so on and so on.
> 
> I'm not sure if we were to track the last few months we'd get that vibe.


I quite liked the three parter thing, and it seemed to work well during the first act. But it does seem to have got away from them now. Whether that's because they're trying to drag the story out to last until Convergence, or shrink it to finish at that point, or whether losing one writer and bringing another one on late meant making room for extra characters, I don't know. But it definitely feels more ragged now than it did last summer.

I do think that giving the writers room to spotlight one particular story thread or character gives it something I haven't seen in the other weeklies, but I think I'd shift the ratio a bit if it were up to me. Maybe make use of single spotlight issues rather than multi-parters, and try to have at least one issue a month that touched base on every storyline in progress. It'll be interesting to see what they _do_ tweak for the second run.

----------


## resipsaloquitur

I met Snyder today!  For fun, I asked him who'd win in a fight: Johns' E-3 Owlman or his own Lincoln March version.  He sheepishly went with his version, of course.  (Snyder was a very, VERY nice guy and a lot of fun to talk to.)  

Of course, his answer suggests to me that he wouldn't use Johns' version of the character when he's got his own Owlman to play with.  If the mystery villain turned out to be an Owlman, it wouldn't be some cosmic alternate-universe version whom Johns has his own plans for.  It'd be his own.  (I would love to see a story where the two Owlmen meet, but that's probably a story best told well after Eternal wraps up.)

----------


## K. Jones

> I quite liked the three parter thing, and it seemed to work well during the first act. But it does seem to have got away from them now. Whether that's because they're trying to drag the story out to last until Convergence, or shrink it to finish at that point, or whether losing one writer and bringing another one on late meant making room for extra characters, I don't know. But it definitely feels more ragged now than it did last summer.
> 
> I do think that giving the writers room to spotlight one particular story thread or character gives it something I haven't seen in the other weeklies, but I think I'd shift the ratio a bit if it were up to me. Maybe make use of single spotlight issues rather than multi-parters, and try to have at least one issue a month that touched base on every storyline in progress. It'll be interesting to see what they _do_ tweak for the second run.


Agreed. Frankly I'm partial to done-in-ones but that's probably not in the cards for a weekly series. But there's stuff I always look to when I structure stories that have comicky formats - Ostrander's Suicide Squad really sticks in my head, because it always did a few issues, then a character spotlight issue to break it up and give us the inside scoop about one of our leads, or an interesting B-character, then back to the bigger arcs.

----------


## Nick Miller

i see Seeley has a Guardians of the Galaxy one-shot for Marvel.

COme on DC, don't let him leave!

----------


## LostinFandom

> i see Seeley has a Guardians of the Galaxy one-shot for Marvel.
> 
> Come on DC, don't let him leave!


Considering he's launching a new title at Vertigo next week I wouldn't worry.

----------


## nepenthes

*Eternal #42 Preview 
*

----------


## Godlike13

Looks good, i really like the art. I have to say though, im glad Dicks not in this and that he doesn't have to take part in the the whole new sidekick save old sidekicks right of passage gag.

----------


## tako

> Looks good, i really like the art. I have to say though, im glad Dicks not in this and that he doesn't have to take part in the the whole new sidekick save old sidekicks right of passage gag.


Actually, that'll be a perfect time for Dick to appear. Harper messes up and Dick has to save her instead.

He ends up saving her while she's trying to save others.

"Oh hey, there's some chick who is dressed in my old colors...I guess I HAVE to save her."

Basically, Dick saves the day.

----------


## Godlike13

> Actually, that'll be a perfect time for Dick to appear. Harper messes up and Dick has to save her instead.
> 
> He ends up saving her while she's trying to save others.
> 
> "Oh hey, there's some chick who is dressed in my old colors...I guess I HAVE to save her."
> 
> Basically, Dick saves the day.


Hmm, well when u put it like that. That would be acceptable.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Dick shows up with Helena and saves the day. He also brings Damian who manages to personally save Tim. Hilarity ensues.

----------


## Westbats

> Actually, that'll be a perfect time for Dick to appear. Harper messes up and Dick has to save her instead.
> 
> He ends up saving her while she's trying to save others.
> 
> "Oh hey, there's some chick who is dressed in my old colors...I guess I HAVE to save her."
> 
> Basically, Dick saves the day.


Why not give Bluebird the benefit of the doubt?  Heroes have to start somewhere.

Besides, this is a trial-by-fire experience for the character, either she's going to do really well, or needs improvement.  From _Batman 28_ we know that the nano-plague is still in active in some form, why else would Harper tell Catwoman's henchmen that it was reason she was there?

----------


## brucekent12

I'm hoping Dick/Nightwing and Damian join the storylines for Eternal 2 or whatever they call it!

----------


## Nick Miller

Roger Robinson?

Holy No Man's Land Batman!!

Last time he worked on a batbook IIRC

----------


## Nick Miller

> I'm hoping Dick/Nightwing and Damian join the storylines for Eternal 2 or whatever they call it!


yes!

Keep him in Grayson.

WHen he is in Eternal 2, it should be as Nightwing, in a new costume.

----------


## Frontier

> *Eternal #42 Preview 
> *


Y'know, I have to imagine Spoiler would have totally pulled that jump off  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though all kidding aside, looking forward to Bluebird's debut  :Smile: .

I wonder if Batman might show up at the end to help Harper out or assist her in stopping Hatter, then deciding to bring her into the fold? Maybe the effects of being infected leave Red Robin, Batgirl, and Red Hood still incapacitated which will leave Bluebird as the only person who can go out with Batman into the field?

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Y'know, I have to imagine Spoiler would have totally pulled that jump off .


But would her dad have noticed? :Stick Out Tongue: 


Today's issue is already on comixology.  The main plot with Harper is alright, but man was the subplot stupid and pointless.  It might just be the most nonsensical and needless filler I've seen.

----------


## RobinFan4880

So the nanovirus was pretty much just an excuse to get Harper onto Team Batman. Works for me. Especially since she and Tim are potentially a _thing_ now. 

So the root cause for every plot from the beginning of the run has been proven to be "by invitation". Now that each of the plots have been largely resolved, the only thing that remains is the big reveal and the inevitable conflict that will ensue.

----------


## Punisher007

Yeah, this mystery bad guy has set in motion what maybe the most complicated and overly-elaborate master plan in Batman history, and that's saying something.

----------


## Punisher007

> So the nanovirus was pretty much just an excuse to get Harper onto Team Batman. Works for me. Especially since she and Tim are potentially a _thing_ now. 
> 
> So the root cause for every plot from the beginning of the run has been proven to be "by invitation". Now that each of the plots have been largely resolved, the only thing that remains is the big reveal and the inevitable conflict that will ensue.


Hmm, Tim likes the punk chicks.  Well played Timmie, well played.   :Wink:

----------


## BatGlamorous

Best issue in quite a while. What a difference choosing to focus on one or two plots at one time makes.  :Big Grin:

----------


## K. Jones

Sudzuka art didn't hurt. Harper's costume needs streamlining, though. Not a ton - generally I like the design. You know, Nguyen's version didn't overcomplicate it, though.

Fun.

----------


## resipsaloquitur

So it looks like we've finally looped back to _Batman_ #28, or we're damn close to doing it.  #28 is weirdly being collected in Snyder's _Batman_ Vol. 6.  Is it going to be reprinted in one of the _Eternal_ volumes too?  I mean, is it going to slide right between the next two _Eternal_ issues, or are we going to get a weird replay of #28 next week?

----------


## K. Jones

> So it looks like we've finally looped back to _Batman_ #28, or we're damn close to doing it.  #28 is weirdly being collected in Snyder's _Batman_ Vol. 6.  Is it going to be reprinted in one of the _Eternal_ volumes too?  I mean, is it going to slide right between the next two _Eternal_ issues, or are we going to get a weird replay of #28 next week?


Toughie. It also serves effectively enough as a flashforward type prologue chapter if you want it to (which it was, of course), but that's all for Eternal, it's beholden to Eternal. It's less of a preface to Endgame than The Meek (which itself is more of a preface to Arkham Manor's bridge-story.)

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

> So it looks like we've finally looped back to _Batman_ #28, or we're damn close to doing it.  #28 is weirdly being collected in Snyder's _Batman_ Vol. 6.  Is it going to be reprinted in one of the _Eternal_ volumes too?  I mean, is it going to slide right between the next two _Eternal_ issues, or are we going to get a weird replay of #28 next week?


Good question. They will put Batman #28 in eventually. Obviously they've got big plans for Harper so she'll be around as a Snyder invention. The first TPB maybe won't have it, but if you wait they'll realize they can put an issue of Batman in there and sell more. I thought this was a good issue and set Harper up well going forward. I still think Higgins is bland, but this was some of his better DC work

----------


## Triple J

And Batman manages to ruin yet another teenager's life  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Anyways, nice to see Harper in action  :Big Grin:

----------


## Sardorim

> So the nanovirus was pretty much just an excuse to get Harper onto Team Batman. Works for me. Especially since she and Tim are potentially a _thing_ now. 
> 
> So the root cause for every plot from the beginning of the run has been proven to be "by invitation". Now that each of the plots have been largely resolved, the only thing that remains is the big reveal and the inevitable conflict that will ensue.


Tim and Harper?

No, she needs to stay the heck away from Tim.

Bad enough she's trying to steal Cassandra's spot in the Dynamic Trio.

----------


## scary harpy

I enjoyed this issue. Harper was a fun read.

I can relate to her falling on the roof. She handled herself well.

I get the feeling there's something between her and Tim.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Tim and Harper?
> 
> No, she needs to stay the heck away from Tim.
> 
> Bad enough she's trying to steal Cassandra's spot in the Dynamic Trio.


But their buddy comic has such a nice ring to it - Red Robin and Blue Bird!

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Considering the amount of flak Harper's been getting for being too similar to Steph it would not be a good idea yet.  If they're serious about Harper being a super-hero she needs to be more established on her own before going into a relationship with an already established character like Tim.

----------


## Claude

> Considering the amount of flak Harper's been getting for being too similar to Steph it would not be a good idea yet.  If they're serious about Harper being a super-hero she needs to be more established on her own before going into a relationship with an already established character like Tim.


I'd actually quite like Harper and Tim to be Platonic Best Friends, and for this to factor into the inevitable Harper/Steph and Tim/Steph relationships.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> I'd actually quite like Harper and Tim to be Platonic Best Friends, and for this to factor into the inevitable Harper/Steph and Tim/Steph relationships.


While that could lead to complaints about her stealing Cass' traits, it's probably the best option at the moment.  And Harper's relationships will automatically be different from Cass'.  Steph is going to react differently to a fighter who is less graceful than her than she did to Cass's mad skills, and not having a speech impediment will make every relationship different.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I wouldn't mind seeing Harper and Tim as friends and partners insofar as night work is concerned but if there's going to be more to their relationship than that I would like it to happen organically.

----------


## InformationGeek

Good issue, though I would have preferred one consistent artist on it.

Also, loved this bit:


I like to imagine this happened to Batman once or twice in the early days.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I wouldn't mind seeing Harper and Tim as friends and partners insofar as night work is concerned but if there's going to be more to their relationship than that I would like it to happen organically.


I thought their rooftop conversation was really nice, and works better if they stayed as platonic friends for the time being.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I thought their rooftop conversation was really nice, and works better if they stayed as platonic friends for the time being.


Exactly what I was getting at. I like them as friends right now and believe that is all they will end up being but like I said before if they want to take it beyond that at some point I'd like any sort of romance between them to grow organically.

----------


## godisawesome

The best part about Harper is the part of her character that actually are unique: her relationship with her brother, her sense of style, and about half her dialogue. The worst part about Harper is all the stuff that seems derivative: her near identical backstory to Steph (neglected daughter of a criminal serving time in Blackgate who inserts themselves into the Batfamily mission after meeting both the big guy and Tim Drake, only to stick to Tim, who has some awkward romantic tension with her), both ladies lack of training leading to humorous moments where they display 'tude and stubborn insistence that they choose to do the night life and enjoy it, and the place in the Bat-family as "the rookie Batman expresses some disapproval of."

I like Harper a bit, but I really dislike her place and overall plot function in Eternal. Considering how little focus both she and Steph get, it clearly would have served the current construction of the series better if the two were one and the same character, as either Harper or Stephanie. It would have doubled their screentime and condensed the story with minimal loss of story impact.

Again, I kind of like Harper; unlike her story _function_ (being the precocious new female sidekick with issues teamed with Tim), I actually enjoyed her actual story _structure_ (having the goal of rescuing her brother first and foremost). But any writer on a team up book is going to have to define the difference between her and Stephanie in personality and portrayal. Hopefully, we'll see that in an upcoming issue of Eternal.

Oh, and the mastermind has to be Lincoln March. This master scheme has so few long term goals (seizing the city, replacing Bruce Wayne, driving everyone permanently insane) and so much focus on long term damage (lots of explosions/wrecked buildings/needless chaos without even the Joker's theatricality) that it can't be any of the classic suspects, and is both so uncoordinated (Falcone, Hush, Hatter, and Blackfyre are clearly not working together, and Hatter is clearly not even following the few orders he got) and so petty (again, Hatter's mission was to make people artificially hate Batman) that the only viable candidate who just wants to hurt Bruce and is throwing the Machiavellian equivalent of a temper tantrum. That's Lincoln.

----------


## Sardorim

> But their buddy comic has such a nice ring to it - Red Robin and Blue Bird!


Red Robin and Spoiler or Red Robin and Black Bat or Red Robin, Black Bat, and Spoiler are far superior. Not to mention that Steph and Cass are way better than forced Harper.

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## Bluebow

> Red Robin and Spoiler or Red Robin and Black Bat or Red Robin, Black Bat, and Spoiler are far superior. Not to mention that Steph and Cass are way better than forced Harper.


Forced is exactly the right word for Harper. She is also what I would call a defensible Mary-Sue. The punch from Batman being written in to point to as proof that she is not having easy acceptance from Batman, when aside from that she pretty much has.

----------


## K. Jones

Ah, the old "Defensible Mary-Sue". I mean I can't quite agree. Mary-Sueism is hard to prove but usually a literal Mary-Sue is like, better than the protagonist at skill, shows up the supporting players and is typically something of a Chosen One archetype. But I know what you mean and then again, she is apparently some electronics prodigy who can counter-act nano-tech that Tim "Tech-Savvy Robin" Drake and Barbara "You guys remember I was Oracle, right?" Gordon can't handle. She's definitely got at least a couple of Mary-Sue traits. What a complete and helpful coincidence to Batman's war on crime and this Nanotech story plot that Harper, this poor kid with a probably self-taught education is such an electronics wizard!

But I mean Tim's debut had him solving the unsolvable diagetic riddle of "Who is Batman?" (Remember that time Tim Drake defeated Lady Shiva? Somehow that was totally in-character, too!) and Barbara's debut had her going from "Gordon's daughter at a costume party" to "something tells me I can fight crime just as easily as these trained professionals". Jason's two debuts had him being A. "Almost as good an acrobat as Dick Grayson, I know, right?" and B. "Yeah I can totally jack the rims off of the most security-heavy car on the planet." Damian's debut had him kick Tim Drake's ass. A ten year old. Kicking a seventeen year old's ass. Batman's debut had him casually fooling a veteran police detective, showing how Mary-Sue his acting talent and foolproof his alias is. Cass Cain was so Mary-Sue that she, a 90 pound girl, could apparently obliterate large men in combat.

At least it took three very real years for Harper to go from "random skilled poor person who likes Batman and he runs into here and there" to "Sidekick, bird-themed." That's like several months, Batman time!

----------


## Claude

> Ah, the old "Defensible Mary-Sue". I mean I can't quite agree. Mary-Sueism is hard to prove but usually a literal Mary-Sue is like, better than the protagonist at skill, shows up the supporting players and is typically something of a Chosen One archetype. But I know what you mean and then again, she is apparently some electronics prodigy who can counter-act nano-tech that Tim "Tech-Savvy Robin" Drake and Barbara "You guys remember I was Oracle, right?" Gordon can't handle. She's definitely got at least a couple of Mary-Sue traits. What a complete and helpful coincidence to Batman's war on crime and this Nanotech story plot that Harper, this poor kid with a probably self-taught education is such an electronics wizard!
> 
> But I mean Tim's debut had him solving the unsolvable diagetic riddle of "Who is Batman?" (Remember that time Tim Drake defeated Lady Shiva? Somehow that was totally in-character, too!) and Barbara's debut had her going from "Gordon's daughter at a costume party" to "something tells me I can fight crime just as easily as these trained professionals". Jason's two debuts had him being A. "Almost as good an acrobat as Dick Grayson, I know, right?" and B. "Yeah I can totally jack the rims off of the most security-heavy car on the planet." Damian's debut had him kick Tim Drake's ass. A ten year old. Kicking a seventeen year old's ass. Batman's debut had him casually fooling a veteran police detective, showing how Mary-Sue his acting talent and foolproof his alias is. Cass Cain was so Mary-Sue that she, a 90 pound girl, could apparently obliterate large men in combat.
> 
> At least it took three very real years for Harper to go from "random skilled poor person who likes Batman and he runs into here and there" to "Sidekick, bird-themed." That's like several months, Batman time!


Good points, all! But I actually quite like the distinction they seem to have drawn between Tim "Science Detective" Drake and Harper "Engineer" Row. Tim could probably hack into a computer quicker and better, Harper could build a nicer one.

In the absence of Oracle, it'll be quite nice to have a technologically _constructive_ member of the Bat Family.

----------


## godisawesome

I actually quite like her skills niche in the family. Whereas Tim's the Silicon Valley software boss, she's the MIT hardware genius. It good and making her a aficionado at her own gadgets would be a very good move. And I like all the strengths of each Batfamily member, especially at their mos (competently) portrayed.

I jus don't like it when members seem derivative of each other; whether it's Harper having Steph's starting point, or Pre-Crisis Jason being a Dick clone, or Tim being hammered into Dick's archetype as leader of the Titans (someone please read PAD's Young Justice; that's Tim as a leader). The characters read far better when they have a distinct foundation.

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## Claude

> Red Robin and Spoiler or Red Robin and Black Bat or Red Robin, Black Bat, and Spoiler are far superior. Not to mention that Steph and Cass are way better than forced Harper.


Isn't it a coincidence that you prefer those characters _and_ their names have a better ring in the title than the one RobinFan suggested?

What are the odds?  :Big Grin:

----------


## brucekent12

I'm more of a Stephanie person, proably due more to her being around longer, and her days (and nights) as Batgirl, but for me, Harper's charm is that she is new at all this, and is rough around the edges, yet can still d things that let her fit into Batman's world.

----------


## Cowtools

> Ah, the old "Defensible Mary-Sue". I mean I can't quite agree. Mary-Sueism is hard to prove but usually a literal Mary-Sue is like, better than the protagonist at skill, shows up the supporting players and is typically something of a Chosen One archetype. But I know what you mean and then again, she is apparently some electronics prodigy who can counter-act nano-tech that Tim "Tech-Savvy Robin" Drake and Barbara "You guys remember I was Oracle, right?" Gordon can't handle. She's definitely got at least a couple of Mary-Sue traits. What a complete and helpful coincidence to Batman's war on crime and this Nanotech story plot that Harper, this poor kid with a probably self-taught education is such an electronics wizard!
> 
> But I mean Tim's debut had him solving the unsolvable diagetic riddle of "Who is Batman?" (Remember that time Tim Drake defeated Lady Shiva? Somehow that was totally in-character, too!) and Barbara's debut had her going from "Gordon's daughter at a costume party" to "something tells me I can fight crime just as easily as these trained professionals". Jason's two debuts had him being A. "Almost as good an acrobat as Dick Grayson, I know, right?" and B. "Yeah I can totally jack the rims off of the most security-heavy car on the planet." Damian's debut had him kick Tim Drake's ass. A ten year old. Kicking a seventeen year old's ass. Batman's debut had him casually fooling a veteran police detective, showing how Mary-Sue his acting talent and foolproof his alias is. Cass Cain was so Mary-Sue that she, a 90 pound girl, could apparently obliterate large men in combat.
> 
> At least it took three very real years for Harper to go from "random skilled poor person who likes Batman and he runs into here and there" to "Sidekick, bird-themed." That's like several months, Batman time!


I just wanted to say 'Great post!'

----------


## Bluebow

> Ah, the old "Defensible Mary-Sue". I mean I can't quite agree. Mary-Sueism is hard to prove but usually a literal Mary-Sue is like, better than the protagonist at skill, shows up the supporting players and is typically something of a Chosen One archetype. But I know what you mean and then again, she is apparently some electronics prodigy who can counter-act nano-tech that Tim "Tech-Savvy Robin" Drake and Barbara "You guys remember I was Oracle, right?" Gordon can't handle. She's definitely got at least a couple of Mary-Sue traits. What a complete and helpful coincidence to Batman's war on crime and this Nanotech story plot that Harper, this poor kid with a probably self-taught education is such an electronics wizard!
> 
> But I mean Tim's debut had him solving the unsolvable diagetic riddle of "Who is Batman?" (Remember that time Tim Drake defeated Lady Shiva? Somehow that was totally in-character, too!) and Barbara's debut had her going from "Gordon's daughter at a costume party" to "something tells me I can fight crime just as easily as these trained professionals". Jason's two debuts had him being A. "Almost as good an acrobat as Dick Grayson, I know, right?" and B. "Yeah I can totally jack the rims off of the most security-heavy car on the planet." Damian's debut had him kick Tim Drake's ass. A ten year old. Kicking a seventeen year old's ass. Batman's debut had him casually fooling a veteran police detective, showing how Mary-Sue his acting talent and foolproof his alias is. Cass Cain was so Mary-Sue that she, a 90 pound girl, could apparently obliterate large men in combat.
> 
> At least it took three very real years for Harper to go from "random skilled poor person who likes Batman and he runs into here and there" to "Sidekick, bird-themed." That's like several months, Batman time!


Stephanie Brown was around for twenty years, constantly being sent home and treated as an unworthy  disposable character, Helena Bertinelli had similar treatment most notably in No Man's Land, by contrast Harper Rowe is being treated with great respect by both characters and writers.

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## jules

> Stephanie Brown was around for twenty years, constantly being sent home and treated as an unworthy  disposable character, Helena Bertinelli had similar treatment most notably in No Man's Land, by contrast Harper Rowe is being treated with great respect by both characters and writers.


But it's a different set of writers now, and maybe it's a sign of the times and of keeping at least one eye on the diversification tickbox. You don't just dismiss the girls' contribution out of hand any more.

It never felt fair when Helena was shut out of the boys club for not being psychic about what Batman actually wanted from her, when it would have made more sense to bring her into the circle and rein her aggression in a bit. It never felt fair when Steph was offered training, then dropped, then brought back in again according to Batman's mood and whim. It'd be no more fair to dismiss Harper's skills out of hand either. Not everybody can be equally well suited to the vigilante life, of course. But if they're sincere and determined enough, it makes sense to find their level and find them a niche.

Voicing reservations about whether they were sufficiently trained to do the job is another matter. Harper clearly isn't ready for a frontline role, but her engineering skills are useful and deserve respect. Steph currently shows better physical coordination and improvises well, but can be rash and over-ambitious. Brought on together as apprentices they'd actually make a pretty good contrast to each other. We've not really seen anyone taken slowly and in detail through the raw, apprentice-in-training stage since Tim Drake 25+ years ago. I kind of hope that's what they do with these two.

----------


## Chickfighter

> But it's a different set of writers now, and maybe it's a sign of the times and of keeping at least one eye on the diversification tickbox. You don't just dismiss the girls' contribution out of hand any more.
> 
> It never felt fair when Helena was shut out of the boys club for not being psychic about what Batman actually wanted from her, when it would have made more sense to bring her into the circle and rein her aggression in a bit. It never felt fair when Steph was offered training, then dropped, then brought back in again according to Batman's mood and whim. It'd be no more fair to dismiss Harper's skills out of hand either. Not everybody can be equally well suited to the vigilante life, of course. But if they're sincere and determined enough, it makes sense to find their level and find them a niche.
> 
> Voicing reservations about whether they were sufficiently trained to do the job is another matter. Harper clearly isn't ready for a frontline role, but her engineering skills are useful and deserve respect. Steph currently shows better physical coordination and improvises well, but can be rash and over-ambitious. Brought on together as apprentices they'd actually make a pretty good contrast to each other. We've not really seen anyone taken slowly and in detail through the raw, apprentice-in-training stage since Tim Drake 25+ years ago. I kind of hope that's what they do with these two.


This all seems pretty accurate. But I must say the Batverse trope that everyone has to be a mentored intern and bow down to the absolutes of the big Bat annoys me. I'd like for the story to be how characters like Steph or Harper stand up to the Bat at the same time they admire him and tell him when they think he's wrong. To me that's the way to not dismiss the girls' contribution. Slap him again, Steph!  :Wink:

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## brucekent12

Stephanie's my girl, but its a sign of the times IMHO. Steph and Helena were created  at least 20 years ago, Harper was created a few years ago as female crime fighters and heros are on the rise and very popular. Plus, and this is not a putdown at all. but Harper was created by superstar Bat writer Scott Snyder, which is also a plus.

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## sunofdarkchild

The issue with Harper is that it was painfully obvious how her story would play out from the moment she was introduced, partially because of the similarities to other characters, and partially because it was all telegraphed a mile away.  Tim had a similar issue when he was introduced, but that was largely because there was not only no Robin at the time, but no sidekick at all.  Any kid character introduced at the time would have become the new Robin.  When Carrie Kelley was introduced in B&R we had no idea what kind of role she'd end up playing.

Though we still don't know what the plan is with CK. :Frown: 

But that's just been Snyder's approach during his run, spell everything out so there's no doubt what's going on.  Eternal has been the exception, and I'd bet it's because it has several other writers.  It's hard to fault Snyder's pet character for being written exactly the same way Snyder writes everything these days.

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## Punisher007

I don't see anything going on differently with Harper then went on with Dick, Tim, Jason, Babs, etc.  They were ALL writer's "pet characters" at one point or another and they ALL got big pushes.  I'm not going to fault Snyder for doing the same thing that CB writers have been doing for DECADES!  Plus, I just like Harper (she's fun).  I really do want her and Stephanie to meet.  That much adorable awesomness cannot be contained.

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## Sans Simian

> I don't see anything going on differently with Harper then went on with Dick, Tim, Jason, Babs, etc.  They were ALL writer's "pet characters" at one point or another and they ALL got big pushes.  I'm not going to fault Snyder for doing the same thing that CB writers have been doing for DECADES!  Plus, I just like Harper (she's fun).  I really do want her and Stephanie to meet.  That much adorable awesomness cannot be contained.


Totally agree with you. If I was able to I would cosplay as Bluebird at my next con. 

And yeah, when Steph and Harper meet up (when we catch up to Batman #28) it will be awesome.

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## JasonTodd428

> I don't see anything going on differently with Harper then went on with Dick, Tim, Jason, Babs, etc.  They were ALL writer's "pet characters" at one point or another and they ALL got big pushes.  I'm not going to fault Snyder for doing the same thing that CB writers have been doing for DECADES!  Plus, I just like Harper (she's fun).  I really do want her and Stephanie to meet.  That much adorable awesomness cannot be contained.


I agree as well. Personally, I like Harper myself because she is new at this whole thing and she's an interesting character. I look forward to the time when Harper and Stephanie meet for the first time and to seeing them work together sometime down the line. I think the two characters will have an interesting dynamic when together.

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## Nick Miller

Isn't Harper more capable of being a "jerk" than STEPH? Being a hero in Gotham will definately test her, and sometimes that can bring out the worst in someone. See Batjerk.

I think that's one way to defirentiate her from Steph. 
Also wasn't Steph middle class and Harper lives in poverty?

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## Godlike13

I don't have a problem with Harper. I like her style. However i do have a problem with the lack of originality, not seeing anything going on differently with Harper then yada, yade, yada and doing the same things we have seen for decades is not something that should be used to defend her lol, and even more i have a problem with the splitting of hairs with these "niches". Thats part of whats turned me sour on Tim, and whats turning me sour on Jason.

Also i do not want to see Steph become an "apprentice". Not being one of Batman's apprentices is all that separates the role of Spoiler from Batgirl. Things shouldn't be fair for Steph. Its part of her underdog schtick. Which is something that i think has been absent with Eternal's Spoiler. With the professorial looking gear, and the going from sleeping in a vent to doing motorcycle stunts and beating up guards and professional bounty hunters with relative ease.

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## Blacksun

> Isn't Harper more capable of being a "jerk" than STEPH? Being a hero in Gotham will definately test her, and sometimes that can bring out the worst in someone. See Batjerk.
> 
> I think that's one way to defirentiate her from Steph. 
> Also wasn't Steph middle class and Harper lives in poverty?


Steph middle class? her mother is a nurse that has to keep the house with only her money because the father is on prison or scheming. when steph went to college pre new 52 she didn't had a laptop.

I'm happy that new writers doesn't has this boys club mentality from 90s and early 2000s.

for spoiler maybe she will do things on her own, because she doesn't agree with batman methods.

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## jules

> I don't have a problem with Harper. I like her style. However i do have a problem with lack of originality with her road, not seeing anything going on differently with Harper then yada, yade, yada and doing the same things we have seen for decades is not something that should be used to defend her lol, and even more i have a problem with the splitting of hairs with these "niches". Thats part of whats turned me sour on Tim, and whats turning me sour on Jason.


What turned me sour on Tim was the killing-off of his father. I liked that there was a Robin with a normal-ish homelife, who struggled to juggle that with his extra-curricular night time activities. Losing his father turned him grimmer and more obsessive, as well as making it far too easy for him to go out and be a Robin at the drop of a hat. Because, really, did he not have any other relatives who could assume guardianship? It'd be pretty rare that he wouldn't have an uncle, an aunt or a grandparent remaining.

As for New 52 Tim, he might as well have no parents. If he ever gets a solo title I'd hope that his given new background would factor in to it to give him some complications to face, even if I'm not entirely sold on it.




> Also i do not want to see Steph become an "apprentice". Not being one of Batman's apprentices is all that separates the role of Spoiler from Batgirl. Things shouldn't be fair for Steph. Its part of her underdog schtick. Which is something that i think has been absent with Eternal's Spoiler. With the professorial looking gear, and the going from sleeping in a vent to doing motorcycle stunts and beating up guards and professional bounty hunters with relative ease.


Though she does have that massive bounty hanging over her head. (Even if what her mother told her is all there was to it, I doubt the whole of the Gotham underworld knows of it being paid out yet. And where did Crystal get that much money? Has she got it? Or will she default on payment?) I'm pretty sure that life will carry on not being fair for Steph.

You're right that she should always have to struggle and go off and do things on her own, but I think she's probably at the stage where a helping hand to set her on the way would be useful - and would help make it convincing that she has a certain level of achievement and equipment. Mentoring doesn't have to come from Batman though; of his current lieutenants both Dick and Tim would seem suited to the role. Historically Tim was the one who helped Steph out, but Eternal has him tied more into Harper's story while Steph has met almost nobody as yet apart from Batman and Selina, and both only briefly. It's one of the reasons why it feels like Harper is encroaching on Steph's territory.

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## Aioros22

> I don't see anything going on differently with Harper then went on with Dick, Tim, Jason, Babs, etc.  They were ALL writer's "pet characters" at one point or another and they ALL got big pushes.  I'm not going to fault Snyder for doing the same thing that CB writers have been doing for DECADES!  Plus, I just like Harper (she's fun).  I really do want her and Stephanie to meet.  That much adorable awesomness cannot be contained.


There`s hardly anything organically bold in her introduction. There was in Dick`s and post crisis Jason. There wasn`t in Tim but the handling of his character made for it. 

I have nothing against Harper, but I personally disagree here. She just showed up out of nowhere and so far her presence slips by just as fine.

----------


## RobinFan4880

It has been hinted at that Harper would eventually join the Family since pretty much her first appearance. To be blunt, I am shocked they held off this long.

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## K. Jones

> I don't see anything going on differently with Harper then went on with Dick, Tim, Jason, Babs, etc.  They were ALL writer's "pet characters" at one point or another and they ALL got big pushes.  I'm not going to fault Snyder for doing the same thing that CB writers have been doing for DECADES!  Plus, I just like Harper (she's fun).  I really do want her and Stephanie to meet.  That much adorable awesomness cannot be contained.


I wanted to say I hope they hate each other, but frankly that opens up too many lazy doors for cliches to then be applied to Tim Drake.

So I'll just say I hope Steph just goes back to hanging out with Babs a lot. Their relationship was the golden heart of the BQM run, more than the cute costume, the BFF with Supergirl or any other element.

----------


## Westbats

> So I'll just say I hope Steph just goes back to hanging out with Babs a lot. Their relationship was the golden heart of the BQM run, more than the cute costume, the BFF with Supergirl or any other element.


Wasn't Black Canary a mentor for Stephanie at one point?  With the current direction of _Batgirl_, I think Stephanie and Barbara would disagree with one another about openness to the public.  Barbara is very keen on making sure there isn't any impostors running around, so she updates and uploads things to do with her heroics.  Stephanie, on the other hand, has been living with a target on her back since _Batman Eternal 03_, she would be highly apprehensive about being in Gotham's limelight.

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## brucekent12

Assuming all storylines are cleared up at the end of Eternal, there shouldn't be a target on Stephanie anymore, so if Barbara wanted to train Spoiler, she could.

----------


## Bluebow

> The issue with Harper is that it was painfully obvious how her story would play out from the moment she was introduced, partially because of the similarities to other characters, and partially because it was all telegraphed a mile away.


This, and the fact that she was described as a _'Fan Favourite'_ by DC after she had only made two or three appearances together with the fact that she seemed to have been designed by consulting focus groups to _'tick boxes'_ as has already been mentioned. Added to this that at the time that Harper was introduced Stephanie Brown was in a limbo state with DC unwilling to say if she would even exist in the New52 did not help with introduction of the new character at all.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

http://www.craveonline.com/comics/pr...man-eternal-43

Steph and Harper meet in the latest preview. Looks like this happens after Batman #28.

----------


## resipsaloquitur

> http://www.craveonline.com/comics/pr...man-eternal-43
> 
> Steph and Harper meet in the latest preview. Looks like this happens after Batman #28.


Well, except for the "six hours ago" part--that looks like it's before #28.  I'm guessing we'll see some overlap with #28.  That, or the collected edition will read really weird.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Maybe the collected edition will include Batman #28.

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## Punisher007

> This, and the fact that she was described as a _'Fan Favourite'_ by DC after she had only made two or three appearances together with the fact that she seemed to have been designed by consulting focus groups to _'tick boxes'_ as has already been mentioned. Added to this that at the time that Harper was introduced Stephanie Brown was in a limbo state with DC unwilling to say if she would even exist in the New52 did not help with introduction of the new character at all.


Typical hyperbole design to build hype.  Happens all the time, nothing special about it in this case.  As for the "focus group" thing, I've heard that claim before and quite frankly, I don't buy it.  I've seen nothing to support that assertion whatsoever.

----------


## Nick Miller

> http://www.craveonline.com/comics/pr...man-eternal-43
> 
> Steph and Harper meet in the latest preview. Looks like this happens after Batman #28.



about time! I am loving that art..

These last 10 or so issues need to be dynamic and meaty.

----------


## godisawesome

> Typical hyperbole design to build hype.  Happens all the time, nothing special about it in this case.  As for the "focus group" thing, I've heard that claim before and quite frankly, I don't buy it.  I've seen nothing to support that assertion whatsoever.


I don't see focus groups, either. I could, however, believe it if Harper's backstory similarities to Steph were originally the result of Snyder wanting a character who occupied Steph's social standing and ties to the underbelly of Gotham since Steph was banished, and then simply moving on when Steph was cleared.

Because again, the best part of Harper's act so far has been her devotion to her brother and the tech reliance. Otherwise, her arc has been not only predictable in light of her being earmarked for Batfamily membership, but also because of how many story beats she hits in common with Steph.

This week should see greater definition between the characters, which is needed considering how both of them largely disappeared for a huge chunk of the story, which only let the parallels between them stand out more. I mean, I kind of believe that Harper and Tim have some kind of tension, but it seems so paint by the numbers and off screen that it seems we're just expected to plug in our own memories of Steph and Tim's somewhat vitriolic flirtation, and Steph is still so much a cipher with so little explained about her: where the hell did she get an adequate, seemingly armored costume and gear?

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Well, except for the "six hours ago" part--that looks like it's before #28.  I'm guessing we'll see some overlap with #28.  That, or the collected edition will read really weird.


They could have skipped the whole subplot with her mother last issue and it would both flow better and make more sense.

And wow is Harper being a jerk.  At least it qualifies her to be Batman's apprentice.  Steph didn't seem to have anything against Batman until this moment, but she had 2 opportunities to come to him with what she knew and deliberately didn't take them.  Really doubt Selina turned her against Batman.

----------


## Triple J

After everything that has happened in the new 52 (Jason did die, and he came back. Dick almost died. Damien died, but came back. And Barbara was paralyzed by Joker). After all this, he still welcomes kids into his little club?

(Someone needs to tell that to Bruce...to stop endangering/destroying kids' life - perhaps even Alfred).

----------


## Maxpower00044

Streets of Rage 2! Best issue of Eternal yet? It definitely is a contender (this is based soley off of Streets of Rage 2).

----------


## coffeelad

> I don't see anything going on differently with Harper then went on with Dick, Tim, Jason, Babs, etc.  They were ALL writer's "pet characters" at one point or another and they ALL got big pushes.  I'm not going to fault Snyder for doing the same thing that CB writers have been doing for DECADES!  Plus, I just like Harper (she's fun).  I really do want her and Stephanie to meet.  That much adorable awesomness cannot be contained.


I don't agree.
The characters you mention all have very unique threads that set them apart. Even Julia Pennyworth, who's newer than Harper, feels fresher. 
I wouldn't have minded Harper if she was actually unique. As it is, her backstory is an actual compilation of all the other characters'. I mean, a shit dad? Stephanie. A lower-income background? Jason. Tech genius? Tim and Barbara.
It's honestly embarrassing on Scott Snyder's part.

----------


## Blacksun

> After everything that has happened in the new 52 (Jason did die, and he came back. Dick almost died. Damien died, but came back. And Barbara was paralyzed by Joker). After all this, he still welcomes kids into his little club?
> 
> (Someone needs to tell that to Bruce...to stop endangering/destroying kids' life - perhaps even Alfred).


it doesn't make difference Bat take them or not, they will just risk their lives anyway. Better do it with a good training than without it.




> I don't agree.
> The characters you mention all have very unique threads that set them apart. Even Julia Pennyworth, who's newer than Harper, feels fresher. 
> I wouldn't have minded Harper if she was actually unique. As it is, her backstory is an actual compilation of all the other characters'. I mean, a shit dad? Stephanie. A lower-income background? Jason. Tech genius? Tim and Barbara.
> It's honestly embarrassing on Scott Snyder's part.


well the abusive dad is more on Cassandra cain than steph. Snyder tried to get a character that could fullfill cass and steph role, and that was what we got


lol steph and the cat.

----------


## TGW

> I don't agree.
> The characters you mention all have very unique threads that set them apart. Even Julia Pennyworth, who's newer than Harper, feels fresher. 
> I wouldn't have minded Harper if she was actually unique. As it is, her backstory is an actual compilation of all the other characters'. I mean, a shit dad? Stephanie. A lower-income background? Jason. Tech genius? Tim and Barbara.
> It's honestly embarrassing on Scott Snyder's part.


The one thing that I wish the New 52 did was to remove or reassign characters such as Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown and maybe even Jason Todd from Batman continuity. There are just too damn many former Robins, it's ridiculous. Tim could have just been a Teen Titan and Stephanie as a character always seemed ridiculous. Where did she get her suit from in Eternal and how is she able to handle herself against thugs and criminals when she's basically a typical teenager that excelled in gymnastics? As for Jason Todd, I actually don't mind his character. Instead of dying and coming back to life, I would have just had him be a failure as Robin, so that way Bruce could have had one successful Robin (Dick), one failure that eventually redeems himself as Red Hood (Jason) and one loss (Damian, although he's back to life now) in his history. This way, the latest Robin could be Harper, who doesn't necessarily need to even be Robin and can be her own person. This especially works now that Damian is resurrected, although he hasnt been seen in Eternal, and would avoid the redundant clutter of Tim and Stephanie. 

What I like about Harper is that her character takes parts of Tim and Stephanie's back story and at least comes off like a more believable person. I like that her appearance seems to be influenced by Lisbeth Salander from the Girl with a Dragon Tattoo series and not just some generic looking blonde girl (Steph) or another damn teenager with dark hair (Tim). I also like that she is Bluebird (the name is what it is) and not another Robin. Im a fan of Alfreds daughter as well, another interesting character who doesnt necessarily have to become a permanent fixture in the Batman universe.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I don't agree.
> The characters you mention all have very unique threads that set them apart. Even Julia Pennyworth, who's newer than Harper, feels fresher. 
> I wouldn't have minded Harper if she was actually unique. As it is, her backstory is an actual compilation of all the other characters'. I mean, a shit dad? Stephanie. A lower-income background? Jason. Tech genius? Tim and Barbara.
> It's honestly embarrassing on Scott Snyder's part.


Well yes, people that are well adjusted don't become crime fighters.

half the people in the world have Harpers background, and about 75% of the vigilantes.  

I am being hyperbolic, by the way.  :Smile:

----------


## king of hybrids

so; have we any idea what the big secret with harper's mother was?

as for steph's grudge; depending on how much she knows, she might know that half the big players are after bats personally, or that; since bruce *is* operating on sentiment; how many guys like her dad got off because they could play directly to his monumental issues?

if eternal is partially about bringing as much of morrison's stuff into the fold; then that means the bad as well as the good. and bruce's net contribution does not look so great with the bad.

----------


## Sans Simian

> so; have we any idea what the big secret with harper's mother was?


Not yet. Maybe in season two of the book?

----------


## Westbats

> so; have we any idea what the big secret with harper's mother was?


I'm not sure what the secret is, but Scott Snyder has said on on Twitter that Harper and Cullen are going to be heavily involved in the next arc of _Batman_ in June after _Convergence_.  Since he seems to be the revisiting topics from earlier in his run, the history of Mrs. Row looks as though it'll pop up soon.

----------


## jules

> as for steph's grudge; depending on how much she knows, she might know that half the big players are after bats personally, or that; since bruce *is* operating on sentiment; how many guys like her dad got off because they could play directly to his monumental issues?
> 
> if eternal is partially about bringing as much of morrison's stuff into the fold; then that means the bad as well as the good. and bruce's net contribution does not look so great with the bad.


Well, Steph's reasons for being wary of the Bat-family get addressed in this week's issue.

*spoilers:*
I actually realised a couple of pages in what that reason must be, and who she thought the Big Bad was. I just got the ID wrong.  :Smile:  As Harper doesn't know any more than she does about certain things, it's going to be interesting after their little bonding moment to see how they both react.

My reaction was to laugh a lot. The Batman Inc announcement finally comes home to roost.
*end of spoilers*

As for Spoiler's overly professional costume, I'm just going to believe that she stole a lot of equipment from Daddy's stores at some point either before or after she ran for her life. That'd only leave the sewing machine and the purple dye job to explain away.

----------


## Punisher007

That would be fine, if they'd just SAY it in-universe.  It's the fact that they've offered NO explanation for it that's the issue, not the costume itself (which looks cool).

----------


## DragonPiece

> Well, Steph's reasons for being wary of the Bat-family get addressed in this week's issue.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> I actually realised a couple of pages in what that reason must be, and who she thought the Big Bad was. I just got the ID wrong.  As Harper doesn't know any more than she does about certain things, it's going to be interesting after their little bonding moment to see how they both react.
> 
> My reaction was to laugh a lot. The Batman Inc announcement finally comes home to roost.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> As for Spoiler's overly professional costume, I'm just going to believe that she stole a lot of equipment from Daddy's stores at some point either before or after she ran for her life. That'd only leave the sewing machine and the purple dye job to explain away.


Ending of the issue basically confirmed *spoilers:*
 Thomas Wayne Jr.
*end of spoilers* as the big bad honestly.  I've honestly been predicting this for the last few weeks anyway. There are only a few other villains it could be at this point, and non would match the description Stephanie said at the end of this issue.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Ok.  I get why Steph was avoiding Batman.  But why leave him a note if that's the case?

----------


## Triple J

> it doesn't make difference Bat take them or not, they will just risk their lives anyway. Better do it with a good training than without it.


Batman could just help those kids, as supposed to taking them under his wings - Wayne enterprises does have many social welfare programs, does it not?

----------


## Babs

Ok who did the art for this issue? Because this was awesome work! Best issue so far for Steph Brown fans. Very reminiscent of her Batgirl book. This makes me really want DC to consider filling the space of the 13 canceled titles up with a new book: SPOILER #1! This book would instantly make it in my top 3. 

1:Batgirl
2:Spoiler
3: Gotham Academy

----------


## Bluebow

I found the interaction between Cat woman and Stephanie more than a little creepy. Also there was the way that Harper judged Stephanie merely for being from a suburb, terrible things can happen behind behind closed doors in supposedly respectable neighbourhoods

----------


## magicallypuzzled

> Ok who did the art for this issue? Because this was awesome work! Best issue so far for Steph Brown fans. Very reminiscent of her Batgirl book. This makes me really want DC to consider filling the space of the 13 canceled titles up with a new book: SPOILER #1! This book would instantly make it in my top 3. 
> 
> 1:Batgirl
> 2:Spoiler
> 3: Gotham Academy


really? the faces were awful and stuck out horribly the bodies were too small for the terribly huge heads also every one looked hook noised and well like female versions of snape.  I have never seen such awful art in my life and I usually don't care at all.   

the rest of the post I agree with though except I don't read batgirl.

----------


## Godlike13

Hmm, this was a pretty good. I found Harper likable for more then just her style, and i really liked Catwoman here. At first i was a little off put by how the artist drew her, but it quickly grew on me. Also the latest couple of artists have really been killing it on Eternal. Im liking the various stylizations im seeing from these artists.

----------


## Claude

Feels like the book's fulfilling it's potential now in a way it hasn't since Batgirl and Red Hood were in Brazil. Pacey, characterful and mythos-building. Best work I've seen from Tynion, along with a couple of his earlier issues this series.  :Smile:

----------


## AUScowboy

Soo.. I'm REALLY hoping that the "Bruce Wayne" mentioned by Steph is either Lincoln or even (ugh..) Hurt being mistaken as Wayne.

----------


## ispacehead

*spoilers:*
"I don't think that shirt even HAS buttons!"
*end of spoilers*

lol 

I was thinking the same thing actually.

Wonderful issue again.

I love the dynamic Harper brings to the mix. Kinda a female Jason Todd for the modern age. Might seem redundant to some, but it's working well for me.

----------


## Nick Miller

> Batman could just help those kids, as supposed to taking them under his wings - Wayne enterprises does have many social welfare programs, does it not?


and then the story ends. and what a gripping read!!!!

----------


## Nick Miller

the artist is David Lafuente. HE did some Ultimate Spiderman with Bendis


indeed this was a meaty read. 

Is HUSH still in the batcave?

----------


## AUScowboy

He was there in Arkham Manor this week, if that still takes place along with Eternal..

----------


## Stazz

I liked it, but I think the weird thing about Harper is that between her, Steph and Julia, she makes the LEAST sense in the role she wants to play. When she was introduced, she was a tech "genius" who could apply her skill in creative ways to help Batman, which logically set her up to be the Oracle of the Family, right? Yet, they instead have her determined to be a costumed agent out in the field, and give the Oracle-like role to Julia, the woman who ACTUALLY has the intelligence training and experience in combat, undercover work and the like, and if I recall wasn't particularly knowledgeable of the Bat-Computer systems when Batman asked her to fill that job. Steph also makes a bit more sense because she's actually been FORCED into this situation. She doesn't really want it, while Harper does and is acting REALLY entitled about it at times. Also...I can't stand Cullen. He's just such a burden. He seems to only exist to be someone who can't take care of himself and needs Harper to constantly stick up for him/defend him/save his life. 

Also, what happened to Catwoman being mad at Bruce because he "left her to die", as stated in the Batman issue that flashforwarded to this?

----------


## brucekent12

Good question Stazz. This issue is the linkup to Batman 28, so that should have been answered already. I originally thought it had something to do with when Falcone had captured her, but she wasn't at death's door then, as I remember. Maybe she was mad that Killer Croc rescued her that one time instead of Bats!

----------


## Triple J

> and then the story ends. and what a gripping read!!!!


Not really. That's like saying there are no great Batman stories without his 'sidekicks'.

I do like the 'sidekicks' - particularly the first few - Dick, Jason, Barbara and Tim. But, after that..doesn't even make sense for Batman to be taking new kids under his wing; to me, it just doesn't fit his character (being paranoid, helping Gotham and all).

And, I wonder how the people in Gotham think about this, particularly parental groups and such. I don't think those folks are going to be too happy (I have never read a story that explores what the people think - The Bat using kids to fight criminals? Is there any story that explores it?).

----------


## Sans Simian

> He was there in Arkham Manor this week, if that still takes place along with Eternal..


It does, last I checked!

----------


## nepenthes

> Not really. That's like saying there are no great Batman stories without his 'sidekicks'.
> 
> I do like the 'sidekicks' - particularly the first few - Dick, Jason, Barbara and Tim. But, after that..doesn't even make sense for Batman to be taking new kids under his wing; to me, *it just doesn't fit his character (being paranoid, helping Gotham and all).*
> 
> And, I wonder how the people in Gotham think about this, particularly parental groups and such. I don't think those folks are going to be too happy (I have never read a story that explores what the people think - The Bat using kids to fight criminals? Is there any story that explores it?).


That Batman collects sidekicks like trading cards proves that the loner paranoid thing is a rare exception. For the overwhelming majority of his publishing history, Batman has been surrounded by a wide and colorful cast of hangers on. The cries of parental groups are indeed a long running joke in the the Frank Miller stories - of course they hate him, but then again you're talking a universe where kids do this kind of thing all the time. That fictional parents might be concerned is not something we as readers need to factor in.

----------


## Cowtools

> Also there was the way that Harper judged Stephanie merely for being from a suburb, terrible things can happen behind behind closed doors in supposedly respectable neighbourhoods


I think that reflects on how Harper isn't nearly as clued-in as she thinks she is (and I think that's intentional)
Also, I think they could be looking to use class differences as a way to differentiate Harper and Steph. Thinking of Steph as a middle-class suburban kid feels off for the moment, but I think they can make it work.

As for this issue: if, after Convergence, they don't run a new Birds Of Prey book, with Tynion on script and LaFuente on art, featuring Harper and Steph (with Black Canary and Batwoman as their mentors. And Starling as well), then they may as well take a big pile of money and set fire to it. This was such a fun issue!

----------


## godisawesome

As to Batman always seeming to collect sidekicks, I've noticed that each sidekick has at least one origin story variation where they seek him out or throw themselves into the line of fire; it may be best if, in the future, writers of the family emphasize moments like Harper's declaration of wanting to follow in his footsteps. 

Dick's had at least one or two origins where he goes out searching for Zucco on his own, Jason's original tires-stealing origin has major cajones and he got involved in Ma Gunn's plans (you could expand it to him actually persistently trying to steal the tires just for the challenge; that'd be better than the Thompkins guilt trip Lobdell used to make him Robin), Tim's two origins both feature him seeking out Batman and the family (the first added humility and caution to the story, the second sucks because it doesn't have any brains and makes him the type of arrogant entitled kid people think millennials are), Damian's been raised in his father's shadow and leaps at the chance, and every single person who's worn a Batgirl suit or variation of it has entered the business without his blessing.

It may work better if they make it clear that Bruce inspires extraordinary individuals to follow him, and then he scrambles to keep them from getting killed through a lack of training or inexperience, with each of them having to prove themselves capable. It doesn't take away the worrying aspects of the tale, but it twists them so that Bruce seems less like a master of child soldiers and more like he's enabling risky behavior for kids who only seem to be emotionally mature enough for the "job."

----------


## heyevaxx

_@godisawesome said:
"... and every single person who's worn a Batgirl suit or variation of it has entered the business without his blessing."_

I wonder if Cassandra Cain becoming Batgirl might be an exception about entering the business without Batman's blessing.

In Cassandra Cain's 3rd appearance, Batman Legends of the Dark Knight #120 1999-08, Batman presents Cassandra to the rest of the Bat-Family as a new member of their team.

*Batman:* He tells the team she's a new member, period.
*"You can trust her"
"The young woman is as well-trained and committed as any of you. She will never take a life. She will never surrender a fight."*

Jean-Paul: he's been a Bat Family member the shortest time, is somewhat naive and is trusting and accepting of good people in general. He doesn't protest at all and he and Cass become fast friends.

Tim: He's youngest in the group and can only muster a slack jawed "Cain trained you?" exclamation. He's not the deciding factor.

Dick: he and Babs are the senior members of the Bat-Family and Dick is not convinced despite Batman's confidence in Cassandra.

*Barbara:* As the second most senior Bat-Family member after Dick and the former long time Batgirl, Batman turns to her to help push Nightwing into acceptance. Babs 100% wants Cassandra as Batgirl:
*"You can trust her."
"Everything Batman said about her is true."
"She can do the job."
"She has my blessing."*

So no matter what came later with OYL, Evil Cass and Didio trying (and succeeding) to dump Cassandra Cain, she was appointed by Batman to be Batgirl with Barbara Gordon's complete approval and support.

----------


## king of hybrids

i suppose the question is: which of the 3 is it?

hurt and march would gladly do all this just to mess with bruce; on the other hand bruce losing control of wayne enterprises does mean that certain... business partners profit in both business and leverage over the league.

if it was hurt; we wouldn't really need to guess who dug him up at least

----------


## CatBoy

I like that Batman 28 was supposed to be in between Eternal #28 and #29, but I'm kind of glad that it took this long because this was the climax of Selina's arc.

But, with that said - this issue was dynamite! I love the Ivan Reis cover and David Lafuente's interiors were phenomenal. The story really has picked up these last few issues and now that we are in the last act of the story - I have to really appreciate the ride that Eternal has taken us on. No, it wasn't perfect by any means - but I was excited for the next issue every week. 

When is Eternal 2 planned for again?

----------


## Triple J

> That Batman collects sidekicks like trading cards proves that the loner paranoid thing is a rare exception. For the overwhelming majority of his publishing history, Batman has been surrounded by a wide and colorful cast of hangers on. The cries of parental groups are indeed a long running joke in the the Frank Miller stories - of course they hate him, but then again you're talking a universe where kids do this kind of thing all the time. That fictional parents might be concerned is not something we as readers need to factor in.


Yeah..that was the reason he was shutdown in DKR, wasn't it? Parental groups going after him.

What irks me more is people like Alfred or Gordon not saying anything about this (Gordon had reacted during his Batgirl hunt - after she seemingly killed Gordon Jr - slapping Bats for enabling a young person to take up the suit and become a vigilante).

----------


## Nite-Wing

Most of the kids batman takes on are orphans,emancipated, or just legally old enough to make their own decisions
Yeah its crazy how batman collects sidekicks but DC realizes that young fans love to project themselves onto the robins/batgirls,etc 

Batman is a vigilante anyway he breaks the law all the time I doubt he cares about some parents group

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, you have to realize that Batman collected all of these sidekicks over a 75 year history. Originally there was just Dick. And then there was Barb who was (in pre-Crisis) a grown-up Congresswoman who occasionally flirted with her underage partner (...). Then Dick did stuff with Titans and became Nightwing, Babs got crippled, etc, and they had to be replaced. For the most part, there has been decades separating each kid. Generally, the Bat "family" has been Batman, Oracle, a grown-up Robin who did his own thing, a young Robin, and a Batgirl, and maybe a few other loosely connected allies who were mostly independent (Huntress, Batwoman, etc).

----------


## Ceebiro

Came for the Lafuente art and I have to say the writing was a lot stronger than I had expected it to be.

Put Tynion and Lafuente on a Bat-kids books and I'd be all over it.

Better yet? Just give them Teen Titans.

----------


## Nick Miller

> Came for the Lafuente art and I have to say the writing was a lot stronger than I had expected it to be.
> 
> Put Tynion and Lafuente on a Bat-kids books and I'd be all over it.
> 
> Better yet? Just give them Teen Titans.


I can't believe how bad Teen Titans is.

Birds of Prey is definately coming back post convergence. Hopefully under Doyle's editorship.

----------


## Ceebiro

> I can't believe how bad Teen Titans is.
> 
> Birds of Prey is definately coming back post convergence. Hopefully under Doyle's editorship.


There are definitely two things I'd say about Doyle - guy has an eye for talent and a will to make each Batbook stand out from the next - two things any new Birds of Prey book would definitely need to make it worthwhile. I'm very curious to see how they set that up, as I was really a fan of concept behind the New 52 BoP and the original team line-up. I would think including Bluebird would be a no brainer, and it seems Secret would be a good character for her to play off. Black Canary of course has to be there, but I can't say how I'd fill out the team past that.

----------


## K. Jones

In other news I had a convention center named after me.

More on the story as it develops.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> i suppose the question is: which of the 3 is it?
> 
> hurt and march would gladly do all this just to mess with bruce; on the other hand bruce losing control of wayne enterprises does mean that certain... business partners profit in both business and leverage over the league.
> 
> if it was hurt; we wouldn't really need to guess who dug him up at least


I'm drawing a complete blank right now, who is the third candidate you're alluding to? 




> In other news I had a convention center named after me.
> 
> More on the story as it develops.


We're all ears!

----------


## Turn the Page

> Well, you have to realize that Batman collected all of these sidekicks over a 75 year history. Originally there was just Dick. And then there was Barb who was (in pre-Crisis) a grown-up Congresswoman who occasionally flirted with her underage partner (...). Then Dick did stuff with Titans and became Nightwing, Babs got crippled, etc, and they had to be replaced. For the most part, there has been decades separating each kid. Generally, the Bat "family" has been Batman, Oracle, a grown-up Robin who did his own thing, a young Robin, and a Batgirl, and maybe a few other loosely connected allies who were mostly independent (Huntress, Batwoman, etc).


Child endangerment aside, Batman Eternal is my favorite Bat book on the stands.

----------


## king of hybrids

> I'm drawing a complete blank right now, who is the third candidate you're alluding to?


March - destroy bruce
E3 Owlman - his morality refuses to even consider that gotham, or the waynes, are worth fighting for. he also need luthor's help with the whole coming doom thing, and events have to be distracting bruce from his "watch the evil genius" job, including the in-the-works merger of wayne enterprises and lexcorp.
Hurt - Dug up by Joker to mess with bats while he set up his punchline

----------


## K. Jones

> March - destroy bruce
> E3 Owlman - his morality refuses to even consider that gotham, or the waynes, are worth fighting for. he also need luthor's help with the whole coming doom thing, and events have to be distracting bruce from his "watch the evil genius" job, including the in-the-works merger of wayne enterprises and lexcorp.
> Hurt - Dug up by Joker to mess with bats while he set up his punchline


Hurt is for my money the one guy on that list with extensive knowledge of things like the occult, magic, blood rites, Satanism, and who could maybe f*** with the Spectre. He's got Vandal Savage connections, too, before you get to the whole "he's essentially a host for a Darkseid emanation/weapon" angle. He's a pro at mind control. He's got Arkham connections not just in his one-time Arkham takeover but because he worked at Willowwood, too, back when Bruce was a child. He's got the Professor Milo connection because of the whole Silver Age "Robin Dies At Dawn" key word projects (IE; Because Morrison). He's got the Latin American connection because of the Penitente Cartel. He's put together "Clubs of Villains" before.

Admittedly 90% of the reason I want it to be Hurt is because there's good likelihood that it's Lincoln March, and I just want the two of them to be linked. We know that March was in Willowwood when he was a kid, the same time we know Doctor Hurt worked there, some time after having developed a grudge against his great-great-great-great grandnephew Thomas. It hasn't really been acknowledged much. They're both claiming to be somebody called Thomas Wayne. One kind of is. One might or might not be.

----------


## K. Jones

> We're all ears!


Page whatever of the preview, with the map, has a "K JONES CONVENTION CENTER" in Midtown (not far from the Wayne Building). My ego's just big enough to figure it's totally a nod and a wink.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Page whatever of the preview, with the map, has a "K JONES CONVENTION CENTER" in Midtown (not far from the Wayne Building). My ego's just big enough to figure it's totally a nod and a wink.


Congrats, man.  :Smile:

----------


## Punisher007

> Came for the Lafuente art and I have to say the writing was a lot stronger than I had expected it to be.
> 
> Put Tynion and Lafuente on a Bat-kids books and I'd be all over it.
> 
> Better yet? Just give them Teen Titans.


I'm kind of hoping that "Year Two" of Eternal focuses on the "young" Bat-characters.  Tim, Steph, Cass (come on DC, you've had more than enough time bring her back already), Harper, Damian, etc all playing off of/interacting with each other could be really fun.  Put one of the "older" Bat-family members on as the "mentor" figure and there you go.

----------


## Punisher007

> I think that reflects on how Harper isn't nearly as clued-in as she thinks she is (and I think that's intentional)
> Also, I think they could be looking to use class differences as a way to differentiate Harper and Steph. Thinking of Steph as a middle-class suburban kid feels off for the moment, but I think they can make it work.
> 
> As for this issue: if, after Convergence, they don't run a new Birds Of Prey book, with Tynion on script and LaFuente on art, featuring Harper and Steph (with Black Canary and Batwoman as their mentors. And Starling as well), then they may as well take a big pile of money and set fire to it. This was such a fun issue!


it's also true to life in a way.  If you're not from a certain places and don't spend a lot of time there, then you might very well make assumptions/generalizations about said place and the people who live there.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm kind of hoping that "Year Two" of Eternal focuses on the "young" Bat-characters.  Tim, Steph, Cass (come on DC, you've had more than enough time bring her back already), Harper, Damian, etc all playing off of/interacting with each other could be really fun.  Put one of the "older" Bat-family members on as the "mentor" figure and there you go.


I'm hoping that Eternal 2.0 is exactly that myself. Seeing the younger Bats interacting could make for a fun and enjoyable read.

----------


## Ragdoll

I just read the newest issue, and that reveal at the end was great. I have ni clue what is even happening now, and can't wait to find out.

----------


## napolid

Preview

BATMAN ETERNAL #44
Art: Aco
Script: Ray Fawkes

----------


## brucekent12

Preview looks great can't wait!

----------


## sicsexsix

Them shifting the focus of this issue back to the supernatural happenings at Arkham really reinforces my belief that Dr Hurt is involved with this whole scheme, him and Lincoln March working together.  It just makes sense.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

I knew Ra's al Ghul was involved in all this.

----------


## K. Jones

The thing I'm most interested about Ra's al Ghul showing up is finally figuring out exactly where Tomasi's last dozen issues fit with Eternal. Because I still can't figure out if it's supposed to be before or after. I mean it's gotta be after, right? You don't spend 52 issues in Gotham with Damian Wayne being alive and not see the little guy!

That's a beautiful Jae Lee cover. Between that and Pat Gleason, Ra's has been looking better lately than he has in ages. All evil and twisted and mysterious.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> Them shifting the focus of this issue back to the supernatural happenings at Arkham really reinforces my belief that Dr Hurt is involved with this whole scheme, him and Lincoln March working together.  It just makes sense.


That'd be pretty crazy, but could very well be.  The two brothers sort of.  I think GMo made it sort of clear that the Waynes passed off Hurt as Bruce's brother when Hurt was under the Wayne's care temporarily (they sent him to Willowood Asylum (where he was cared for for a period before taking over the place somehow (probably by morphing his face)), and Lincoln outright thinks he is Bruce's brother.

----------


## M L A

Aw Ra's looks so happy.

----------


## cgh

Evidence for Lincoln March:

1. He already looks kind of like Bruce and could have had Dr. Hush add the finishing touches via plastic surgery, explaining the revelation at the end of #43.

2. He commands the Owls which explains why the Riddler went and hid somewhere cold.

Evidence for Dr. Hurt:

1. All the supernatural stuff.

2. Similar behind-the-scenes, ruin-your-life tactics as last time.

3. South American connection.

The fact that they were together at Wormwood is pretty interesting. If it really is them both, then it's a great job by Snyder to pull together a lot of dangling threads.

On the other hand, it means the Joker probably dug Hurt up. You'd think he'd have mentioned it during Endgame.

----------


## nepenthes

Very nice cover, but I'm not buying Ra's as the ultimate bad. That would be way too underwhelming and cliched at this point. Hurt/March.

----------


## ispacehead

> Very nice cover, but I'm not buying Ra's as the ultimate bad. That would be way too underwhelming and cliched at this point. Hurt/March.


Makes perfect sense for Ra's to make an appearance in Batman: EBTKS but issue 46 is likely a bit too early for him to be big bad.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Very nice cover, but I'm not buying Ra's as the ultimate bad. That would be way too underwhelming and cliched at this point. Hurt/March.


I agree. Ra's is an important part of a bigger puzzle obviously.

----------


## AUScowboy

Ill dig it either way, but if it DOSENT turn out to be Hurt and/or March there are gonna be some seriously p.o.ed CBR posters.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> but if it DOSENT turn out to be Hurt and/or March there are gonna be some seriously p.o.ed CBR posters.


Yea. :Cool:   Lincoln could be.  I bet Snyder and them won't use Hurt because he'll be viewed as moreso Grant's character.  (of course Pyg and Damian and etc counterargue this, but still)

I want it to be Hurt the most, but I just doubt it.

----------


## brucekent12

I always thought it might be Lincoln and the Court as Eternal's Big Bad, since that was Snyder's creation, but I'd be alright with Hurt. Actually, I'd be alright with anyone, since we wouldn't have a choice.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Ill dig it either way, but if it DOSENT turn out to be Hurt and/or March there are gonna be some seriously p.o.ed CBR posters.


There are gonna be some seriously PO'd CBR posters no matter what.

----------


## godisawesome

I don't really feel that having Batman and co. face a gauntlet of chessmasters was the greatest idea, especially since none of them seem to be cooperating competently. Hush, Falcone, Blackfyre, Riddler, Ra's-they're all big name, big scheme villains. You put that many Machiavellian manipulator sin the same storyline, they should be operating together, or having much more internal warfare with each other, kind of like Hush vs Falcone, but constantly. Instead, they all seem just thrown at Batman, far too few are curious about who's manipulating them, and other villains, like Bane, Penguin, and Scarecrow, all who should be lead villains in their own right, are being reduced to cannon fodder.

I still like parts of this weekly a lot, but it would work so much better if either they had a focused and well paced story (like the first half) or multiple series to focus on the different plotlines (having Steph and Harper waste another two pages doing what could be done in two panels is frustrating, and these last two months have been slow and meandering, with far too many wasted moments (where does Steph get her costume? How did Catwoman actually establish her power? When was Harper getting any training? Why are all these villains just now showing up for one issue when we could have had a lot more fun exploring their individual schemes?)

----------


## king of hybrids

shouldn't ra's be a rather large hint towards hurt? its not impossible that they might have crossed paths over the centuries?

as for joker not mentioning digging hurt up; perhaps, in joker's mind, he doesn't matter?
he knew bruce would somehow triumph; he really only needed the distraction in order to set up his own punchlines for endgame.

that, or one of darkseid's underlings had him dug up as payback for bruce's little jaunt to armaghetto?

----------


## tako

> For some reason, March isn't on Batman's possible list of people doin bad things:
> 
> 
> 
> Luthor, E3 Owlman, Dr. Hurt, Ra's, Joker, Hush...and that other dude.


srsly guys. Would the true villain be anyone Batman actually suspects? March is the only one not on this list.

----------


## cgh

> There are gonna be some seriously PO'd CBR posters no matter what.


Haha, this is very true. Disproportionate anger on CBR is like a universal constant. It's too bad the original Grayson thread was deleted with the old board as that was a gold mine of sputtering outrage.

----------


## king of hybrids

regarding bruce not suspecting march; is it maybe to do with the theory that march has no apparent assets to pull it off?

calvin presumably informed bruce about the court's current status. if they've managed to re-seize the assets march tried to rob from them and dealt with the power vaccum; then they'll have a fair few of their remaining talons hunting him. and he, being an owl themed ninja zombie with ha famous face, can't exactly go extract any of his more legitimate funds.

or it could be that same subconcious spot that already has Bruce thinking march *is* his brother (from the same annual where we were introduce to certain arkham staff)

----------


## Batman Fan

Why was Batman so bothered about getting the Arkham doctor at the airport? I thought the Arkham portion was all to do with Blackfire and endd after the Spectre showed up?

What is the Arkham Doctor supposed to have done?

----------


## K. Jones

> Why was Batman so bothered about getting the Arkham doctor at the airport? I thought the Arkham portion was all to do with Blackfire and endd after the Spectre showed up?
> 
> What is the Arkham Doctor supposed to have done?


Milo was using chemistry, apparently magically-attuned chemicals to mind-control the Arkham inmates. Magpie, for instance, we saw him controlling her. (Classically Milo is a guy who uses a lot of crazy gasses to make people hallucinate - something Morrison pointed at with the whole "I shall hang up my cape" mind attack - the various Silver Age trippy psychedelic flashbacks were mostly ascribed to Professor Milo's attacks back in the day), as well as his inclusion in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House).

Somebody else besides Milo was directing Joker's Daughter (probably Joker as Border), but all the occult rituals to resurrect Deacon Blackfire? Maxie Zeus as a carrier, Ten-Eyed Man screwing with Croc's Underground, as well as tormenting Scarecrow and Professor Pyg specifically? That seems to all be what Milo was doing.

----------


## Nick Miller

He was also given an invitation by this "mastermind" to sow chaos in Gotham.

His shenanigans led to Arkham blowing up and some of the inmates escaping.

----------


## K. Jones

> He was also given an invitation by this "mastermind" to sow chaos in Gotham.
> 
> His shenanigans led to Arkham blowing up and some of the inmates escaping.


Yeah, that makes all five, right?

Falcone (Muscle: Initiates the gang war, takes Penguin out of play). Hush (Revengist: Shuts down Gotham's infrastructure and takes Wayne Enterprises out of play). Mad Hatter (Tech Guy: Runs amok as a plague in the Narrows, and is connected to the wild goose chase they sent the Bat-Kids on down south). Professor Milo (Occult Guy: Trashes Arkham with mind control and magic). Riddler (Skips town because Batman's Moriarty doesn't play bit parts - it's possible with Riddler declining, there's another "Fifth" Man out there working for the Big Bad).

----------


## Batman Fan

^^ Great explanations there cheers.

----------


## Naked Bat

a March/Hurt team-up would be great. but I don't know, that very first page, the end, makes it seem there is only one big bad. It could be deception of course.

----------


## Sans Simian

> a March/Hurt team-up would be great. but I don't know, that very first page, the end, makes it seem there is only one big bad. It could be deception of course.


That's easy enough to work around. March and Hurt are a team, but when it gets down to the beginning of the first issue, March takes Hurt out to establish March as the one Big Bad. 

Then of course Batman takes March down, and we head out to where Endgame begins.

----------


## brucekent12

I haven't gotten issues 43 or 44 yet. But plan to get them tonight. Is Ra's aplayer in this story now as well. I didn't think he would be in it because of his involvement in Batman and Robin.

----------


## ispacehead

We haven't actually seen him yet except on the cover of 46.

But let's face it. You can't have a Batman roast and not invite Ra's, right?

----------


## Sans Simian

> We haven't actually seen him yet except on the cover of 46.
> 
> But let's face it. You can't have a Batman roast and not invite Ra's, right?


It would be very impolite.

----------


## K. Jones

For all we know Ra's just hold a key piece of intelligence Bruce needs or something. "Somebody is destroying Gotham and it isn't you!" "Oooooh! Tra la la, I'm jelly, Detective, I'll help you with your game of oneupsmanship!" (<- real Ra's al Ghul dialogue.)

----------


## Naked Bat

> That's easy enough to work around. March and Hurt are a team, but when it gets down to the beginning of the first issue, March takes Hurt out to establish March as the one Big Bad. 
> 
> Then of course Batman takes March down, and we head out to where Endgame begins.


It could totally happen. I hope it's a team-up now.

----------


## Bookem Danno

> I haven't gotten issues 43 or 44 yet. But plan to get them tonight. Is Ra's aplayer in this story now as well. I didn't think he would be in it because of his involvement in Batman and Robin.


43 was at least 5x more enjoyable than 44 imo. Your mileage may vary? 

BMETRI-Cv43-ds-6cfd9.jpg vs BMETRI-Cv44-ds-b246c.jpg?

----------


## Harpsikord

43 kinda was infinitely more enjoyable than 44 was.

Am I the only one who thinks it might end up being a straight up 'Bruce is essentially at fault for all of this' kinda thing because one of his stupid plans? I feel March is too obvious.

----------


## Chickfighter

> 43 kinda was infinitely more enjoyable than 44 was.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks it might end up being a straight up 'Bruce is essentially at fault for all of this' kinda thing because one of his stupid plans? I feel March is too obvious.


I agree that 43 was a lot more fun than 44.

I think I'd be okay with this all somehow being Bruce's fault honestly. One of my complaints about comics is general is that they so often go ridiculously out of their way to provide "clever" plot twists. Not holding my breath but I'd like to see a coalition of daughters be the ones to save the day.

----------


## K. Jones

Ah, a daughters coalition. Yeah. Which reminds me: Batboys are always tragic orphans. Batgirls are always the daughters of villains. Except Babs. And Julia. Actually Jason Todd's latter continuity dad Willis is probably still alive somewhere, isn't he?

----------


## godisawesome

Willis is supposed to be dead. Lobdell's subpar plotted Death of the Family tie-in teased that Joker had captured him and Jack Drake, but they were used strictly as decoy bait.

----------


## Naked Bat

The true bad guy is Matches Malone.

----------


## AUScowboy

Regardless of who the big bad is, I want  some stuff with Joker/Endgame set up.

----------


## K. Jones

So ... who else is getting the big fat red herring vibes?

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> So ... who else is getting the big fat red herring vibes?


For sure. Also, was this the first time Court of Owls got a namecheck in Eternal? 

I do agree with Batman about the whole "plunging Bruce Waynes's world, including Gotham, into chaos" - thing not being their style, but that still doesn't rule out Lincoln March. 

And let's not forget the weird dwelling on what kind of bird visited Milo in his dream... Some kind of Owl-reveal certainly looks likely to be coming up.

----------


## AUScowboy

Im with you two, my gut says its gonna be "Thomas jr."/March. I hope we're wrong though, if only for the sake of an honest and sensible surprise..

----------


## Sans Simian

> And let's not forget the weird dwelling on what kind of bird visited Milo in his dream... Some kind of Owl-reveal certainly looks likely to be coming up.


Are there any other major Bat-villains who use a bird motif other than the Court/March? I'm trying to rack my brain, but I'm having a hard time coming up with one.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> Are there *any other major Bat-villains who use a bird motif* other than the Court/March? I'm trying to rack my brain, but I'm having a hard time coming up with one.


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not regarding The Penguin. :Confused:

----------


## Sans Simian

> I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not regarding The Penguin.


...

I'll blame this oversight on lack of sleep and alcohol consumption. 

Blue furry ape-cats and Jaeger do not mix, it would seem.

----------


## ispacehead

> So ... who else is getting the big fat red herring vibes?


Yup yup.

But I betcha Ra's knows all about it anyway, and is likely quite amused by it all.

A little bird told me. : ) (maybe not a *little* one...but a bird.)

Great issue.

"You gotta understand, Harper. Everyody in this game is a a sucker. Everybody's a pawn. Nobody's in charge."

It's all chaos to distract Bats from the true villain.




> I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not regarding The Penguin.


Where the heck is Pengy in all this, anyway? That would be a twist.

And once again, how can we have a Batman roast and NOT invite Mr. Cobblepot?

Do Owls and Penguins get along?

----------


## jules

> So ... who else is getting the big fat red herring vibes?


There's certainly a distinct fishy aroma coming from Gotham right now.

I'm going to predict that Batman is right, and it is Ra's who's been buying up pieces of Wayne Enterprises, but only to stop them from getting swooped on by the likes of Lexcorp. Why not seize the opportunity provided by someone else to pick up ammunition to use the next time that he and Batman clash? But like the Riddler, he's probably just figured it out before Bruce has and taken advantage.

And no, it's not the way the Court of Owls play the game, but although they hatched Lincoln March he left the nest a long time ago.

----------


## chachi

in what issue does everyone think the big baddie will be revealed? Somewhere around issue 50?

----------


## ispacehead

I'd guess the reveal will be at the end of 49 and the last 3 issues will deal with whoever or whomevers... it is.

Ra's undoubtedly has some integral knowledge at least.

----------


## K. Jones

I'm definitely of the mind that Ra's bought up Bruce's assets because A.) It's a dick move and B.) Better he has control of them than others and C.) He then labeled them with the demon front companies because it's as good as an invitation to visit his mountain lair for people like them. He probably considers handwritten danse macabre stationary somewhat gauche and boring.

It'd be funny if he intended to hand over all those businesses to his grandson now.

----------


## jules

> I'm definitely of the mind that Ra's bought up Bruce's assets because A.) It's a dick move and B.) Better he has control of them than others and C.) He then labeled them with the demon front companies because it's as good as an invitation to visit his mountain lair for people like them. He probably considers handwritten danse macabre stationary somewhat gauche and boring.
> 
> It'd be funny if he intended to hand over all those businesses to his grandson now.


Oh! He almost certainly will, if it's temporally possible. And wouldn't Damian just love it?

At least this little visit to Ra's might clear up the Batman & Robin timeline. Whatever Ra's is doing for or against Batman, it's almost certainly about Talia and Damian.

What's the betting that Harper's quest to go and talk to Batman and tell him Bruce Wayne is behind everything will end in failure because he's gone off on a road trip?

----------


## Sans Simian

> What's the betting that Harper's quest to go and talk to Batman and tell him Bruce Wayne is behind everything will end in failure because he's gone off on a road trip?


Hell, it's the perfect time for her to find out The Secret.

----------


## king of hybrids

what are the chances that march is filling in for the catspaw role riddler and ra's rejected?

i wouldn't be shocked if it turned out joker dug hurt up specifically to cause utter havoc on the parts of bruce joker considers "surplus to requirements"; if only because burning gotham to the ground isn't exactly in the courts' interests

pity JL and Eternal are basically ignoring each other; a ra's/Lex/Owlman meeting over this stuff would have been interesting

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Hell, it's the perfect time for her to find out The Secret.


I wouldn't be surprised if she did. Although someone may stop her from finding out? Damian's back so he might delay her from discovery. By the way has their been any mention of Carrie Kelly? I thought she was going to be playing a role in all of this? Or did they drop her?

----------


## Frontier

> Where the heck is Pengy in all this, anyway? That would be a twist.
> 
> And once again, how can we have a Batman roast and NOT invite Mr. Cobblepot?
> 
> Do Owls and Penguins get along?


Pretty sure Penguin is still locked up in Blackgate, and it seems he was just a casualty of the overall plan with Falcone, Bard, and Hush. #34 hinted he's out of prison, so maybe once Bard is revealed to the public his previous arrest and charges will be revoked letting him out into the streets again.

----------


## JLH

Wish I had the time to re-read this series.  I'd like to focus on Julia to see if she's legit.  It'd be a great betrayal if she turned out to be the "mastermind."

----------


## Naked Bat

> Wish I had the time to re-read this series.  I'd like to focus on Julia to see if she's legit.  It'd be a great betrayal if she turned out to be the "mastermind."



which won't happen, since she's still there after eternal.

----------


## K. Jones

Previews are out for both Eternal 45 and Batman and Robin 39.

Suffice it to say - final confirmation that all of Hunt for Robin/Robin Rises/Superpower takes place not after, not in the midst of, not even between Acts - Tomasi's story all happens before Eternal starts. Penguin's not in jail, Croc doesn't have his act together, Bruce is living in the mansion, and in the Eternal preview Batman mentions leaving Ra's in a chasm in the ice at Nanda Parbat.

Obviously "where the hell is Damian?" comes to mind.

----------


## ispacehead

> Obviously "where the hell is Damian?" comes to mind.


Hanging with Clark?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Previews are out for both Eternal 45 and Batman and Robin 39.
> 
> Suffice it to say - final confirmation that all of Hunt for Robin/Robin Rises/Superpower takes place not after, not in the midst of, not even between Acts - Tomasi's story all happens before Eternal starts. Penguin's not in jail, Croc doesn't have his act together, Bruce is living in the mansion, and in the Eternal preview Batman mentions leaving Ra's in a chasm in the ice at Nanda Parbat.
> 
> Obviously "where the hell is Damian?" comes to mind.


He's taking acrobat lessons from a gay French gymnast until proven otherwise.

----------


## Shinomune

> Obviously "where the hell is Damian?" comes to mind.

----------


## napolid

Batman eternal 45 preview

Script: Tim Seeley
Art: Alessandro Vitti, Christian Duce, Ronan Cliquet

----------


## brucekent12

The preview looks great, can't wait. As for Robin, wouldn't he be considered dead, if this takes place before Robin Rises? And isn't the first girl in the preview Talia? She should be dead as well.

----------


## Claude

> He's taking acrobat lessons from a gay French gymnast until proven otherwise.


Seriously though, if the "present" of the Bat Books has to introduce Damian and Dick back to the status quo at around the same time - it makes sense to do it together.

----------


## resipsaloquitur

When Damian's not on-panel, everyone should be standing around saying "Where's Damian"?

----------


## ispacehead

> When Damian's not on-panel, everyone should be standing around saying "Where's Damian"?


It's just the obvious question. Many of us have been wondering how Batman and Robin worked with Eternal. These issues seem to clear that up. Whatever's about to happen to Damian in BAR happens, and then Eternal happens.

So given that Batman and Robin have traditionally worked together, if Robin is back, but not appearing in Eternal....then where the heck is he?

----------


## jules

> So given that Batman and Robin have traditionally worked together, if Robin is back, but not appearing in Eternal....then where the heck is he?


Boarding school in Europe, establishing his alibi for the time while he was dead. Not a girl's boarding school, mind you, but maybe he gets to see the gay French gymnast occasionally.

----------


## ispacehead

(Get Smart voice)

Would you believe traversing the globe with Clifford the Big Red Manbat?

----------


## Frontier

> Batman eternal 45 preview
> 
> Script: Tim Seeley
> Art: Alessandro Vitti, Christian Duce, Ronan Cliquet


I wonder if this is setting up Ivy being away from Gotham so she can make her appearances in Harley Quinn...

----------


## K. Jones

I figure Damian traversing the globe is a solid step for him. He needs to walk the path, take the trails, do what Bruce, then Bruce, Dick and Tim did - travel around solving international mysteries ... learn from the masters ... return to Gotham whole and a master of his own Kung-Fu and psychology. It's a full circle story beat that connects back to not just Bruce's ten-eyed demon surgery and Thogal ritual and how they link to Damian coming into the picture ... but also back even to the reflection of that we get from Nobody and how he's tied to Bruce's travels with the Ducards back in the day.

Plus it's just good comics to have Robin fly solo for a while.

----------


## K. Jones

> I wonder if this is setting up Ivy being away from Gotham so she can make her appearances in Harley Quinn...


More likely Suicide Squad, though I guess if we had to figure out where Harley Quinn and the Ivy guest spots fall in any kind of sensible storyline, it'd probably be like, between their Squad tenures. (Poison Ivy is in the post-Convergence Suicide Squad)

----------


## Frontier

> More likely Suicide Squad, though I guess if we had to figure out where Harley Quinn and the Ivy guest spots fall in any kind of sensible storyline, it'd probably be like, between their Squad tenures. (Poison Ivy is in the post-Convergence Suicide Squad)


Yeah, that's possible too and work, though I wonder if this is the last we'll see of Ivy in Eternal? We've still got plenty of other Supervillains running around the streets too...

----------


## brucekent12

I really like this book. Good jobs creators! I'll be sorry to see this book end.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I really like this book. Good jobs creators! I'll be sorry to see this book end.


Eternal 2 starts after Comvergence. Hope it stays 2.99.

Thank you colorist for not destroying the art in a dull monochrome! Good Job

any speculation on who the writers will be on Eternal 2?

----------


## K. Jones

> Eternal 2 starts after Comvergence. Hope it stays 2.99.
> 
> Thank you colorist for not destroying the art in a dull monochrome! Good Job
> 
> any speculation on who the writers will be on Eternal 2?


Sure, speculation. "A lot of the same writers". And "a few different ones".

I expect Snyder to continue overseeing the weekly. Tim Seeley I can see sticking around. Ray Fawkes might stick around, though who knows if he'll continue playing with the occult angles since G.B.M. gives him a full venue to do that in elsewhere on his own terms. Tynion is a wild-card. Tynion's notably the architect of Eternal, and while Snyder's name is on the bill, Tynion, who is basically Snyder's writing partner anyway, definitely owns this volume. I think he's got a solid voice for the youthful Bat-Teens, and if they'd let him run a competition between House Artists to fix Tim's costume we'd have a solid direction! But anyway, as he's been getting Marvel work, who can say?

Higgins and Layman probably won't be returning, since they have no stake in the game anymore, having left Detective and Nightwing, respectively. I like both voices in a group chorus, but they seem out of the picture come June. Which makes me curious if we might see Manapul or Booch, or Tom King step into it. Tom King seems like a no-brainer to me.

As for other new additions, it depends on who's content to stay in their title and just run parallel, or who might want to have a little more control of the landscape. I suspect Pat Gleason will do his own thing and let editorial handle the links, but Genevieve Valentine or Brendan Fletcher could be great voices to join the chorus.

So offhand, I'd I suppose like to see our V.1 sextet of Snyder, Tynion, Fawkes, Layman, Seeley, Higgins replaced with maybe a King, Seeley, Fawkes, Valentine, Fletcher, and a wild-card sixth.

----------


## godisawesome

So, new issue dropped. And yeah it's the same as the last few issues, albeit very well executed with a nice way of dropping the title of the book and addressing the future, and with Ra's being awesome.

Still....we seem to be in a holding pattern for the main event instead of in an actual Act of the story. And while I enjoyed this issue, it still make some hanker for a more sidekick heavy book. Please let We Are Robin be about the sidekicks....

----------


## K. Jones

Well, Eternal. I like Seeley bringing these elements back from Talon that he brought back from the end of Batman Incorporated. This also links those plots up with the fallout from Ra's in Robin Rises. Plus while Lord Death Man is totally cool, I really like this spin on a horribly "kept alive" Doctor Darrk (though didn't he have some success using the Talon formula to restore his vitality and appearance? Eh, maybe it didn't take.) So anyway, there's Morrison elements from Batman, Incorporated II.

The hallucinogenic "ghosts" of future Batmen was neat, too, particularly because Ra's used time travel nomenclature (hinting at Morrison again) and showed glimpses of real future Batmen like Dick-Bats, Damian as Batman 666, Terry, Frank Miller Batman, Kingdom Come Batman, Batman One Million, et al. Using glimpses of all possible "future Batmen" was used back in, you guessed it, Batman # 700 by Morrison, during Batman and Robin/Return of Bruce Wayne.

Catwoman mentions El Penitente specifically by title this time, making I believe the second or third reference to the Penitente Cartel of Morrison's Batman and Robin gun. At this point it is officially a Chekov's Gun, not a one-off name-drop. It could still be a red herring, much like this Ra's al Ghul detour proved to be.

Joker's Daughter is attempting to utilize imagery from The Killing Joke, a story that haunts every run of Batman, not just Morrison's run. But Morrison did take us back to that exact carnival, where Professor Pyg and the Circus of Strange were holed up. If Joker's Daughter is lurking there and this series began with a major threat from Pyg, we've got a bit of a circular connection. (I assume the bag of craft feathers are for her to replicate the "tar & feather" trick.)

Freeze being shown I think could point in the direction of the Owls, Hush and Ivy getting spotlights and dialogue at least references in spirit Batman: Hush. Certainly those are meant to be evoked by the writers, but possibly by the Masterminds as well, since they're some of Batman's harshest trials.

I'm more convinced than ever that we're about to see a team-up between the two Thomas Waynes of Willowwood, Simon Hurt and Lincoln March. But while it was sort of an idle fancy and "where I'd take it" before, now I'm actually a little scared for Batman.

What if it is both of them? Dear god.

----------


## ispacehead

I know I've said this before, but this might have been my favorite issue. 

Lord Death Man was a riot. Ra's was as amused by it all, and his circumstances were properly surprising.

Yet another unexpected participant next issue it seems, coming back to proper form. Nepenthes, you must be thrilled.  :Wink: 

Really great issue. I might change my user name to Sally Batman.

----------


## Nat

I think Year 2 will have Snyder, Tynion (He's done only two Marvel books, I think he's staying with DC), Tomasi (he said he had something Batrelated coming up, and he could be a good addition to a weekly), Seeley, maybe Booch (he's doing Injustice which is also weekly), and one of King/Valentine/Fletcher (Fletcher's doing a lot, which is both a plus and minus for inclusion).

The other question is will it be called Batman Eternal Year 2, just Batman Eternal (renumbered/keep going from 52?), or a completely new title?

----------


## K. Jones

So Riddler burned his invitation and Ra's burned his as well. The Moriarty and Fu Manchu of Batman will suffer no second-hand plots from wicked interlopers - they like playing "the complete game" with the supreme Batman.

Falcone, Hush, Milo and Mad Hatter are accounted for, but is it possible that Hatter and maybe a fifth culprit were "replacement candidates" for whoever sent out the invites? (Obviously I'm still rolling with the old Black Glove theory). Hard to say. Like, could Hush or Falcone have been a replacement for Riddler's **********g? Could Milo have been a replacement for Ra's skills with the arcane and occult? Or were more than five invites sent?

Anyway, I just got around to reading the Rucka/Brubaker years recently (I'm through the runs and moving on to Catwoman now!) and I'm delighted that if I had ever read "Unknowing" before the fact that it was Hatter using nanotech would've been kind of obvious. He's been a master of nano since 2002!

----------


## ispacehead

> Or were more than five invites sent?


I've always been of this mind.




> Anyway, I just got around to reading the Rucka/Brubaker years recently


I enjoyed that period. Sasha Bordeaux's story was like Casablanca for me at the time. 

I am plodding through 1957 currently.

----------


## K. Jones

> I've always been of this mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoyed that period. Sasha Bordeaux's story was like Casablanca for me at the time. 
> 
> I am plodding through 1957 currently.


It's weird to start in different places. I read most of the 50s and 60s Batman runs back during R.I.P., starting with The Black Casebook and just going wild. Then the hype for some of the legendary runs was so up there I just delayed them to the point of forgetting. 

The only extenuating circumstance in my delayed reading is The Invisibles - I simply refuse to read it digitally or in singles so I can't read it until I can afford the collected book. Which'll be never, apparently. I wish I'd had better taste in material a decade ago when I was a teenager who shoplifted books.

The Sasha stuff is truly so fun. I mean there's only one way the whole thing can go! And the art is lovely. Rucka's colorists sticking with that "everything is almost grayscale except for the red spectrum" thing is so cool. The whole era has the smack of Noir design akin to what Cooke does now with Parker novels, as well as the whole Animated Series evocation.

I really liked how Rucka's Detective runs a current of O'Neil era vibe and Brubaker angles for almost more of a weird psychology Alan Grant thing. Highly complimentary. And it fascinates me how much the Morrison/Dini era feels like the natural continuation of those stories, which are themselves continuations of Grant/Dixon, and O'Neil/Wein before that (with Miller/Carlin splashes). Which is why Incorporated Volume 2 is almost like the end of a 40 year storyline.

Of course, Alan Grant period is my next stop. I'm stoked to read Scarface and Black Mask's origins, and all those truly effed up villains he invented. I'm also going to track down Rucka's Checkmate run and transition into Trautmann stuff I haven't read since 2009 - The Shield and JSA/Kobra and all that fun stuff.

----------


## ispacehead

> It's weird to start in different places. I read most of the 50s and 60s Batman runs back during R.I.P., starting with The Black Casebook and just going wild. Then the hype for some of the legendary runs was so up there I just delayed them to the point of forgetting. 
> .


RIP made me want to go back and read some of that Golden Silver stuff, so I started from the beginning. Been slowly worming my way to my prior starting point.

Time is not as plentiful as it was. I get through an issue of Tec and a half an issue of Batman during my lunchbreaks.




> I really liked how Rucka's Detective runs a current of O'Neil era vibe and Brubaker angles for almost more of a weird psychology Alan Grant thing. Highly complimentary.


Definitely. One of the things I miss about the old DCU. Much more complimentary, though we are making progress.




> Which is why Incorporated Volume 2 is almost like the end of a 40 year storyline.


Except that it's not really an end. I guess there doesn't need to be one though. Shouldn't be one even.

Even if I kinda want one.  :Wink: 

Edit: Actually what I really want is just to continue from that point forward.

But I digress.




> Of course, Alan Grant period is my next stop. I'm stoked to read Scarface and Black Mask's origins, and all those truly effed up villains he invented.


Tons of good stuff there. You'll get to enjoy the original Anarky and Yap at a timely moment.

Black Mask was Moench's though. You doing that whole late 80's through early 90's period, all books included? Or just Grant's first?

----------


## Dzetoun

Nice issue, but raises lots of continuity questions.  So Ra's is still recovering from his fight with Batman at Nanda Parbat, and it took him weeks to crawl out of the ravine.  That would indicate that Damian's return happened weeks ago.  So where is he?  Why hasn't anybody bothered to mention that little jaunt to Apokalips? Oh, and what was up with that wistful "Damian?" Unless Bruce waited literally weeks after the encounter at Nanda Parbat to mount a rescue, which seems highly unlikely and does not match the internal evidence of _Batman and Robin_,  that is no Julia, still living in the Manor, etc.

What a mess.

Good to see Lord Death Man, though.

----------


## ispacehead

> Nice issue, but raises lots of continuity questions.  So Ra's is still recovering from his fight with Batman at Nanda Parbat, and it took him weeks to crawl out of the ravine.  That would indicate that Damian's return happened weeks ago.  So where is he?  Why hasn't anybody bothered to mention that little jaunt to Apokalips?


Seems Damian's revival and even the current issues of Batman and Robin all take place prior to Eternal.

Ra's has had weeks and then some to crawl out and partially recover. 

They're probably just too busy to reminisce about Apokolips.

We're still waiting to see where Damian ends up.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Seems Damian's revival and even the current issues of Batman and Robin all take place prior to Eternal.
> 
> Ra's has had weeks and then some to crawl out and partially recover. 
> 
> They're probably just too busy to reminisce about Apokolips.
> 
> We're still waiting to see where Damian ends up.


Chuckle.  It seems that matters of life and death sit very lightly on the bats of Gotham.  Neither Dick being dead (okay "dead") nor Damian being alive impresses them at all.

----------


## K. Jones

> RIP made me want to go back and read some of that Golden Silver stuff, so I started from the beginning. Been slowly worming my way to my prior starting point.
> 
> Time is not as plentiful as it was. I get through an issue of Tec and a half an issue of Batman during my lunchbreaks.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely. One of the things I miss about the old DCU. Much more complimentary, though we are making progress.
> 
> 
> ...


I'll probably run post-Crisis through Zero Hour. Which means Grant, Moench and Dixon, but yeah I'm looking to read Grant's stuff first. I thought Mask was his, but again with the complimentary - he and Moench definitely set a tone and had knacks for creating original villains, many of whom are real lasting ones.

I'll skip Knightfall-through-Quest only because those are actually the only comics I really did read when they came out back in the day. Even as a like eight-year-old my memory of them is pretty good. There's a lot of re-tread in this period though. I mean who hasn't read Year One? And I read Year Two once a while back. In fact I've read most of Barr's stuff (again, researching for Morrison's run) though I'll definitely be reading Batman and the Outsiders for the first time.

I've read all of Carlin's ruination of Jason Todd, in addition to all of the pre-Crisis Jason stuff, so there's some redundancy. I've read DOTF, I've read Lonely Place of Dying, Killing Joke, Cult, the Max Collins stuff. It's really just Grant and Moench's "not big event" stuff I haven't caught from that time period, so it'll be a shorter read than say, catching up with Rucka/Bru. And I'm of course half in it because of the Breyfogle art.

I'll say this real quick, too - I mean I knew I liked both Rucka and Brubaker and knew how much I liked Gotham Central (absolutely their high point) but I didn't expect their run to get as close in "personal rating" as Morrison's run for me. Boy it sure comes close. And if I was a different kind of Batman fan it would probably exceed it.

----------


## BloodOps

So this entire B&R run takes place before Eternal yet no Damian reference and barely any Grayson references. Interesting. 

Not to mention that puts Grayson's cameo in B&R a few months ago early on in his series, maybe even before #1 because most of these events have been coinciding with Eternal.

----------


## K. Jones

> So this entire B&R run takes place before Eternal yet no Damian reference and barely any Grayson references. Interesting. 
> 
> Not to mention that puts Grayson's cameo in B&R a few months ago early on in his series, maybe even before #1 because most of these events have been coinciding with Eternal.


Grayson's timeline certainly seems to be stretched, but at least he's only got his own title to worry about reconciling with and not like, a half dozen books and a team-book. We can just assume that the events of "Grayson" have taken place over several weeks where he's gotten settled into that gig ... and the events of EVERY OTHER Batbook are all crammed into those same several weeks.

"Yeah I did these eight or nine highly dangerous missions. What have you been up to?"
"World tour chasing Ra's after Damian's body ... stole Hellbat from JLA. Went to Apokolips. Punched Darkseid in the face. Resurrected Damian. Barbara defeated her nemesis Knightfall with help from huge super-allies and some other minor threats. Jason and his friends beat addiction and defeated an alien despot. Tim and his friends prevented NYC from being nuked. Falcone returned. Pyg returned. Gordon was arrested. Gang war. Conspiracy. Hung out with Jiro out East ... picked up Alfred's daughter. Spectre nuked Arkham. Hush returned. Barbara went back to college. I became invested in my old high school. Penitente Cartel returning. Old Rogues teamed up. Selina became kingpin. Ra's resurfaced. Doctor Darrk is alive again. Helped Superman defeat Phantom King. Got infected by Amazo Virus. Hate Luthor. That dick Hal Jordan is back. Probably Owlman or Doctor Hurt are stalking and ruining my life. Lost house. Lost company. No Damian to hug because he's off finding himself. Chased murderer through Wayne Manor. Oh, and Joker's probably coming back to ruin my life again and make me break my one rule. How are you?"
"Uhhhhh ... (whistles and walks backwards out of the room) ... I am SOOOOO glad I'm not Batman anymore."

----------


## Nick Miller

No, Robin Rises takes place after Eternal.

IN this issue, Batman, when he sees Damian in the vision sequence, is pining for him.

----------


## ispacehead

> No, Robin Rises takes place after Eternal.


Based on what? I don't recall anything that pins it down.




> IN this issue, Batman, when he sees Damian in the vision sequence, is pining for him.


To me he appears aghast to see his 666 vision come to life more than he appears to be pining.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Grayson's timeline certainly seems to be stretched, but at least he's only got his own title to worry about reconciling with and not like, a half dozen books and a team-book. We can just assume that the events of "Grayson" have taken place over several weeks where he's gotten settled into that gig ... and the events of EVERY OTHER Batbook are all crammed into those same several weeks.
> 
> "Yeah I did these eight or nine highly dangerous missions. What have you been up to?"
> "World tour chasing Ra's after Damian's body ... stole Hellbat from JLA. Went to Apokolips. Punched Darkseid in the face. Resurrected Damian. Barbara defeated her nemesis Knightfall with help from huge super-allies and some other minor threats. Jason and his friends beat addiction and defeated an alien despot. Tim and his friends prevented NYC from being nuked. Falcone returned. Pyg returned. Gordon was arrested. Gang war. Conspiracy. Hung out with Jiro out East ... picked up Alfred's daughter. Spectre nuked Arkham. Hush returned. Barbara went back to college. I became invested in my old high school. Penitente Cartel returning. Old Rogues teamed up. Selina became kingpin. Ra's resurfaced. Doctor Darrk is alive again. Helped Superman defeat Phantom King. Got infected by Amazo Virus. Hate Luthor. That dick Hal Jordan is back. Probably Owlman or Doctor Hurt are stalking and ruining my life. Lost house. Lost company. No Damian to hug because he's off finding himself. Chased murderer through Wayne Manor. Oh, and Joker's probably coming back to ruin my life again and make me break my one rule. How are you?"
> "Uhhhhh ... (whistles and walks backwards out of the room) ... I am SOOOOO glad I'm not Batman anymore."


And, if one of the upcoming covers of Gotham Academy is any indication, "Oh, I also got beaten up by a teenaged schoolgirl."

----------


## jules

> No, Robin Rises takes place after Eternal.
> 
> IN this issue, Batman, when he sees Damian in the vision sequence, is pining for him.


It's equally likely that he'd be pining for him/horrified at the prospect of Batman 666 if he'd just been through the Robin-has-superpowers scenario, and then Robin had left Gotham for some reason. Which we know he must have, as he's not in Eternal. We just know now that he's not with his grandfather either.

My guess is that he'll either have been sent somewhere to learn how to control those superpowers more reliably, or to convalesce if he loses them in a way that has an impact on his health. So he could be on a Swiss alp inhaling clean air and collecting giant red Man-Bats to compensate for not having his menagerie with him, or at a boarding school making good on his death alibi, or living on the island Talia got him for his birthday, getting better acquainted with his clones.

Hopefully the final issue of Batman & Robin will make it clear.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> No, Robin Rises takes place after Eternal.


thats not possible
the entirety of the plot is that Bruce thinks that Ras is behind everything since Eternal #1
but he is not because he is still hurt from the events that LEAD to Robin Rises.

so Rises -> Robin with super powers -> Batman Eternal

----------


## Dzetoun

> It's equally likely that he'd be pining for him/horrified at the prospect of Batman 666 if he'd just been through the Robin-has-superpowers scenario, and then Robin had left Gotham for some reason. Which we know he must have, as he's not in Eternal. We just know now that he's not with his grandfather either.
> 
> My guess is that he'll either have been sent somewhere to learn how to control those superpowers more reliably, or to convalesce if he loses them in a way that has an impact on his health. So he could be on a Swiss alp inhaling clean air and collecting giant red Man-Bats to compensate for not having his menagerie with him, or at a boarding school making good on his death alibi, or living on the island Talia got him for his birthday, getting better acquainted with his clones.
> 
> Hopefully the final issue of Batman & Robin will make it clear.





> thats not possible
> the entirety of the plot is that Bruce thinks that Ras is behind everything since Eternal #1
> but he is not because he is still hurt from the events that LEAD to Robin Rises.
> 
> so Rises -> Robin with super powers -> Batman Eternal


What we have here, in the case of both Damian and Grayson, is what happens when plans change suddenly and existing storylines can't adjust appropriately.  We know, because Seeley told us, that the decision about Grayson's new direction came down very suddenly, evidently from very high up.  Something similar seems to have happened with Damian.  There was the set up with Carrie Kelley, and the entire HUNT FOR ROBIN arc featured Bruce talking about how he just wanted to bury Damian again so they could both be at peace.  Then, literally in the space of one panel, he did a 180 and declared his goal in life was bringing Robin back ALIVE.  One suspects somebody very high up ran some numbers and decided that keeping Damian on the shelf was just too costly.  All this after _Eternal_ was plotted out and probably half-written. It seems the Batman Office just threw up their hands and decided to plow through to _Convergence_, logic, continuity, and believability be darned.

----------


## jules

> One suspects somebody very high up ran some numbers and decided that keeping Damian on the shelf was just too costly.  All this after _Eternal_ was plotted out and probably half-written. It seems the Batman Office just threw up their hands and decided to plow through to _Convergence_, logic, continuity, and believability be darned.


I wouldn't be at all surprised. Eternal was in the works before Mark Doyle took over as Batman group editor as well, so it's possible he had some input in changing the Robin direction. A Batman who doesn't have a dead son is more in keeping with the general lightening of the tone in the Bat-books, after all.

In any case, I would say that the complete absence of both Dick and Damian throughout Eternal is a deliberate choice, and certainly one that makes it easier to slot things in after the fact. They're just... somewhere else at the time, and pinning them down can be left to their own books and their own writers. Or not. If the writers don't explain it, the readers can generally figure something out that works for them.

(Of course, Dick's title _has_ referenced Eternal now, but that's helped somewhat by the fact that Seeley is co-plotting and co-writing on both.)

----------


## Maxpower00044

> No, Robin Rises takes place after Eternal.
> 
> IN this issue, Batman, when he sees Damian in the vision sequence, is pining for him.




No, the reference Robin Rises right in this issue. It happens before or at the very beginning of Eternal. My guess is that 'Tec does, too. 

There doesn't need to be any reference to Damian or Grayson for them to be before Eternal. It could just be that they weren't talking about. There are plenty of tragedies in my life that I don't talk about or reference all the time. I can see why they wouldn't wanna talk about it. 

The pages with all the Batmen was awesome. Part of me thinks maybe the Multiverse can come into play. Just a thought.

----------


## sicsexsix

> "Yeah I did these eight or nine highly dangerous missions. What have you been up to?"
> "World tour chasing Ra's after Damian's body ... stole Hellbat from JLA. Went to Apokolips. Punched Darkseid in the face. Resurrected Damian. Barbara defeated her nemesis Knightfall with help from huge super-allies and some other minor threats. Jason and his friends beat addiction and defeated an alien despot. Tim and his friends prevented NYC from being nuked. Falcone returned. Pyg returned. Gordon was arrested. Gang war. Conspiracy. Hung out with Jiro out East ... picked up Alfred's daughter. Spectre nuked Arkham. Hush returned. Barbara went back to college. I became invested in my old high school. Penitente Cartel returning. Old Rogues teamed up. Selina became kingpin. Ra's resurfaced. Doctor Darrk is alive again. Helped Superman defeat Phantom King. Got infected by Amazo Virus. Hate Luthor. That dick Hal Jordan is back. Probably Owlman or Doctor Hurt are stalking and ruining my life. Lost house. Lost company. No Damian to hug because he's off finding himself. Chased murderer through Wayne Manor. Oh, and Joker's probably coming back to ruin my life again and make me break my one rule. How are you?"
> "Uhhhhh ... (whistles and walks backwards out of the room) ... I am SOOOOO glad I'm not Batman anymore."


Thank you for that, it legit made me LOL  :Smile: 

This week's issue was insane.  All the Morrison-invoking got me even more psyched up for what's coming next.  Ra's dialogue was great... "Discover your enemy.  Defeat him.  Save your city.  Become better.  Evolve.  And then wait for me."  He has not been written so well in I don't know how long.  Lord Death Man cracks me up, we need more of him.  Period.

"...his darker half" = "drink deep, dark twin"

It seems that all of us who have been placing our bets on Hurt & March are about to get paid off.  Selina left no question about it by mentioning El Penitente.  The last time it was mentioned in the series could have been argued it was just a throwaway line, an Easter Egg for some of us, but that sure doesn't seem to be the case now.  

And did anyone read Johnston's Eternal article on Bleeding Cool?  The guy actually thinks the Kingdom Come Batman from the hallucination scene might be whatever that armored thing on DC's FCBD cover is.  That's the sound of his credibility swirling down the toilet.

----------


## K. Jones

That's pretty "Not a Batman expert". C'est la vie. That's why we clever nerds compare and contrast notes here before we go and publish things as credible.

Seeley evokes Morrison every issue he writes, of course, but given we only got a like half a line of Ra's al Ghul back in Talon, I didn't expect Seeley's Demon to be as good as he is. And boy it's really good, he's got the voice nailed. I heard David Warner's voice the whole time. Not only that but I like the direction he took it, too, and even how narratively, Ra's being weak and hospitalized, under care of an old "traitorous" minion and a skeleton lunatic bodyguard, establishes that Ra's is just as hobbled right now as Batman is. They're running parallel to one another.

It's hard work rebuilding an assassin empire.

Tangential ... does anyone here know if there's ever been a comic where Ra's al Ghul interacts with Etrigan? They're both so frequently referred to as "The Demon".

----------


## AUScowboy

I wouldnt be too surprised if it was Hurt, but what sense does that make? Its a stretch if you ask me. I dont see Snyder as the type of writter to pull ole Dr. H out the fridge an heat him up in the microwave to use as Eternal's big bad..

----------


## BatGlamorous

I love all the issues Seeley writes. I definitely want him to be the head writer next time over Snyder. Also major props for re-introducing Lord Death Man, he's always been a favorite "gimmick villain" of mine!  :Big Grin: 

Given how _incredibly_ hesitant the writers are to actually reveal the big bad, I'm starting to think that they're going to be revealed in the final issue and that "season two" is going to be all about hunting them down and defeating them. I think revealing them and defeating them in six more issues would be a little bit of a let down at this point.

----------


## ispacehead

> I dont see Snyder as the type of writter to pull ole Dr. H out the fridge an heat him up in the microwave to use as Eternal's big bad..


I tend to agree.

As much as I'd like to see Hurt return, it seems far more likely that this is March.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Lots to talk about here, which is to be expected from an issue that starts progressing the plot again after what has basically been a (slow) month of breathing space focusing on various Bat-family people.

I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of artists working on Eternal, but having three heavily clashing styles in a single issue like this is rarely a good thing. It didn't help that a lot of it felt rushed as well, especially the conveniently smoky dream landscape. Still, with someone who nails Bat-villain voices like Seeley on writing this was sure to be up my alley. I generally have a hard time digging stuff involving Ra's al-Ghul, but his speach to Bruce was pretty much unquestionably awesome. I guess I enjoy seeing him portrayed more as a batshit insane sociopath than a noble but misguided power player. 

Some quick notes:

* Seline Kyle referred to El Pentinente as "he", which means that if it really is a reference to Dr. Hurt , he's running an established international drug business as one single guy hiding behind an alias while at the same time masterminding the fall of Bruce Wayne. Doesn't jive.  

*"How's Mrs. Batman? And your daughter, Sally Batman?"

*If Batman keeps Hush locked up in the Batcave without any law enforcement or due process involved, surely he could have done the same to a bedridden Ra's al-Ghul?

*This is heading towards another "Batman beats up his entire rouge gallery in one go", isn't it?

*What the hell is Freeze going to do with a deluxe soda fountain, an industrial size freezer and root beer?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I want Tim Seeley to write a comedy book with D-list villains.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Im just going to go out on a limb and say its lincoln march owlman since it cant be ras or joker

----------


## Nick Miller

> thats not possible
> the entirety of the plot is that Bruce thinks that Ras is behind everything since Eternal #1
> but he is not because he is still hurt from the events that LEAD to Robin Rises.
> 
> so Rises -> Robin with super powers -> Batman Eternal


nevermind..............

----------


## ispacehead

> nevermind..............


I haven't been much of a continuity freak since the reboot (not that I ever really was one...), but it does seem like they are trying to do some clean up. Or...clarification if you prefer.

----------


## jules

> Seeley evokes Morrison every issue he writes, of course, but given we only got a like half a line of Ra's al Ghul back in Talon, I didn't expect Seeley's Demon to be as good as he is. And boy it's really good, he's got the voice nailed. I heard David Warner's voice the whole time. Not only that but I like the direction he took it, too, and even how narratively, Ra's being weak and hospitalized, under care of an old "traitorous" minion and a skeleton lunatic bodyguard, establishes that Ra's is just as hobbled right now as Batman is. They're running parallel to one another.
> 
> It's hard work rebuilding an assassin empire.


After this issue I'm really hoping that we get a Ra's appearance in Grayson after the break. Or that rebuilding that assassin empire becomes part of the plot of Eternal 2.0, with Seeley pulling his strings.

Actually, I wonder if there'll be anything fed into the final few issues that leads into the next run. Not that there's room for it, of course, since we don't have the reveal of the big bad yet, but I wouldn't put it past them to slip in a couple of pages of setup right at the last minute.

----------


## ispacehead

> *"How's Mrs. Batman? And your daughter, Sally Batman?"


Pure hilarity.




> *This is heading towards another "Batman beats up his entire rouge gallery in one go", isn't it?


Seems more like it's heading towards a bunch of loose ends and chaos waiting to happen from just about any side, regardless of *who* big bad (Lincoln March) turns out to be.

----------


## Dzetoun

> After this issue I'm really hoping that we get a Ra's appearance in Grayson after the break. Or that rebuilding that assassin empire becomes part of the plot of Eternal 2.0, with Seeley pulling his strings.
> 
> Actually, I wonder if there'll be anything fed into the final few issues that leads into the next run. Not that there's room for it, of course, since we don't have the reveal of the big bad yet, but I wouldn't put it past them to slip in a couple of pages of setup right at the last minute.


Well, _Grayson_ is ending on a cliffhanger.  Maybe Ra's, or for that matter Damian, decides the time has come to even the score with Spyral for what happened to Talia.

----------


## Blacksun

preview http://www.comicvine.com/articles/ex...7/1100-151422/

----------


## K. Jones

I knew it was a Seeley script the second we got a cross-section of the Manor, the ground, and the cave underneath it. It's like Wes Anderson does Batman! The last cross-section I remember was probably Quitely in issue # 1 of Batman and Robin, and even that skipped a lot of the Wayne Building's interiors (which we assume are mostly offices anyway). Of course the super-nerd in me wants to nitpick that much of the old-timey elevator entrance to the Bat-Cave should probably be sealed off with 20 feet of cement.

----------


## AUScowboy

Bummer..just looked at solicits, I was really hoping to get another couple of Fabok issues. Him drawing JL most likely left him too busy. I was really hoping he had one or two in the can waiting (ya know, with ALL that lead time they had..). Okay, enough whiney complaints.

Man oh man, that panel of Bats snapping LDM's arm at the elbow...AWESOME! Cant remember the artist's name but I really dug that section, it was nice to see him again too (Lord Death Man!). I also find myself hoping it's March, that way he'll be wrapped up and not involved w/ whatever happens in June.

----------


## Nix Uotan

Seeley does a lovely Lord Death Man and makes good use of Darrk. Plus, Ra's reasoning was perfect on why it was not him and something to be expected from him. Initially, I thought it might have been Ra's but Ra's has no interest in beating a weak Batman. No, he wants to topple him at his height to prove that Batman even at his best is nothing to him and that's perfect. Absolutely perfect to me.

So, if its not Ra's, who is it... Dr. Hurt comes to mind to me as the next possible alternative. 




> *If Batman keeps Hush locked up in the Batcave without any law enforcement or due process involved, surely he could have done the same to a bedridden Ra's al-Ghul?


Multiple reasons I could think:
1) He has many followers who would seek him out and try to free him.
2) Ra's is not an immediate threat, Hush is. If Hush was set free, Hush would immediately move against Batman whilst Ra's has no intention to do so at the moment.
3) Space really, its not like he can turn the entire Cave into a prison.

That's just me personally though.

----------


## Nick Miller

Hot damn that art is cool!

----------


## ispacehead

Wow. I just noticed that the covers for March are up on DC. 

Looks like we aren't done with Penguin after all, and Bane still has an appearance to make.  (Wouldn't be ETBTKS without him.)

Going to be a pretty exciting, quick month.

----------


## brucekent12

It looks great, Julia vrs. Selina. Wow!

----------


## Godlike13

I like Julia a lot, but jobbing Selina is totally unnecessary.

----------


## brucekent12

Unless there's a red herring with a villain saying he wasn't involved when he really is, there's only 6 issues left and no big bad yet revealed. If the mastermind is revealed this week or next, do y'all think that's enough time to satisfactorily handle  him or her for the book?

----------


## SickAlice

I thought it was digestible. Lot's of staging and review but I support foundation. It gets confused often as filler when it's in ones hands, but filler is empty, foundation isn't. It ends up being worthwhile later on looking back at it, though of course we'll have to wait and see then. I do know that I stuck with the series this far so it must be doing something right. I'm a notorious one for dropping series three to five in when displeased more often than not.




> *What the hell is Freeze going to do with a deluxe soda fountain, an industrial size freezer and root beer?


Make a root beer soda fountain of course. And who can blame him? Gotham's a dirty place, I wouldn't want to drink whatever comes out of the tap there either.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I like Julia a lot, but jobbing Selina is totally unnecessary.


I love Seeley,he's my favourite Bat writer by far but he's been doing this for a while now and I find it frustrating, first it was Dick/Midnighter,then Bane/Croc and now Selina/Julia.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Unless there's a red herring with a villain saying he wasn't involved when he really is, there's only 6 issues left and no big bad yet revealed. If the mastermind is revealed this week or next, do y'all think that's enough time to satisfactorily handle  him or her for the book?


You wont be seeing Lincoln before March cause get it MARCH, this was their opportunity to take a lousy character whose only claim to fame is being Bruce's brother(except he isn't) and give him much needed development, March is one of the worst "big" villains ever created of not THE worst.

----------


## LostinFandom

> I like Julia a lot, but jobbing Selina is totally unnecessary.





> I love Seeley,he's my favourite Bat writer by far but he's been doing this for a while now and I find it frustrating, first it was Dick/Midnighter,then Bane/Croc and now Selina/Julia.


He's actually been setting the Selina/Julia thing up for a while, hence the pole dancing call back.  This is just more direct than the time Julia mocked Selina in Bat's earpiece while Selina, in her underwear, summoned him for information. It's pretty tiresome.

I wish hey would at give Selina at leas a year's worth of story without Batman or even mentioning him.  Preferably longer.

----------


## SickAlice

I wouldn't say unnecessary. The Worf Effect is just a common plot device. Show how cool the newcomer is by having them one up the established awesome character. That's pretty much par the course and we don't often go without an example of it any book. Can be corny when it happens but it's not a capitol offense. No different than the villain almost losing when trying to apply a logical framework to it. I think Selina has otherwise been played with pretty fairly in this series. I have a little irk reading if only because I like the current Catwoman series much more than Eternal, so seeing her out of that element is seeing her in lesser form through my looking glass. I think it's more out of propping than anything, having the character star in order to promote one series or the other.

----------


## Godlike13

If ur gonna do it, do it right. Make the character at least really work for it. Don't just have Julia bend Catwoman over her knee. Julia is by far my favorite character in Eternal, but this is the first time they made me roll my eyes with her. Honestly as reader i find that scene kind of insulting. Not just as a Catwoman fan, because its not flattering to her at all, but also as a Julia fan because u can tell that they just gave her that beating of Catwoman.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

Meh. I'm sick and tired of propping up the flavor of the year at Catwoman's expense. Super spies seem to be a dime a dozen at DC nowadays. Is it a case of when all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail?

----------


## AlexanderLuthor

Why is it unrealistic to think that a British super-spy, special forces type would be able to outfight a master thief with no special training that we know of? That's far more realistic than a 115-20 pound woman with a whip and pole dancing moves being able to hold her own with one of the best hand to hand combatants in the world over and over as we've been shown for the last 75 years

----------


## godisawesome

> I love Seeley,he's my favourite Bat writer by far but he's been doing this for a while now and I find it frustrating, first it was Dick/Midnighter,then Bane/Croc and now Selina/Julia.


My biggest problem was with the Croc and Bane fight, and it's gotten worse in hindsight. I think they wasted two of Bane's appearances. First, they didn't do anything awesome with his team up with Alfred, who I think he should still have recognized as Batman's butler, and they didn't get any humor out of the situation. I was expecting a team Hell No style alliance, and instead we got filler. And I actually support having Croc get a win on Bane, but considering we wasted so many recent issues with the same story points, would it have hurt to give us a knock-down, drag out, full issue fight where we could see Bane give some great shots in before he went down?

----------


## ispacehead

> You wont be seeing Lincoln before March cause get it MARCH....


Though of course the final issue drops on fools day.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Why is it unrealistic to think that a British super-spy, special forces type would be able to outfight a master thief with no special training that we know of? That's far more realistic than a 115-20 pound woman with a whip and pole dancing moves being able to hold her own with one of the best hand to hand combatants in the world over and over as we've been shown for the last 75 years


It's not a question of realism. We've had months of Julia snarking on Selina before this beat down to prove over and over again  that Selina is a flirt who doesn't get the guy she's flirting with doesn't trust or even really like her.  Its static and boring to read.  And considering Selina's "arc" in this title had her off panel for major developments, it's annoying as someone who likes the character.

----------


## SickAlice

Lol, well Alfred did keep pace with then take down Bane in this series. Just saying it's not a surprise nor no less a comic book norm than anything else. In a bizarro way it's a nod in the character on the receiving ends favor to establish them as the one worfed to make the other character look tough. If Julia had stepped up on some nobody or known loser it wouldn't do anything for pushing her character up the bad-assery ladder, you know? It's just a writing tool that doesn't so much work the other way. Like I said in this case as well I sense promotion, mainly to bring readers off Eternal and onto the Catwoman series and matter of opinion here but Valentine just writes her so well that I'm not surprised to see a different writer not pull off the same complexities. It's doofy certainly, much of Selina's in that issue were, but not the end of the world as much of her appearances and her depiction in her own series look good. I guess as humans sometimes we focus on the blemish more so than the rest of the epidermis though.

----------


## Punisher007

This isn't even remotely comparable to the Bane/Croc thing.  Bane was portrayed as a dumb brute in that scene, which yet again goes against the entire point of the character (why the Hell so many writers have such trouble getting him right is something that I'll never understand).  That's not what happened here.  It really does seem like to some people here, Selina losing to Julia is "jobbing" no matter how it's done, and I simply don't agree with that.  As stated above, Julia is a highly-trained and competent British Special Forces operative/spy.  If anything, her skill-set/training eclipse Selina's.  So Julia winning is not at all hard to buy.  I don't really buy the premise that Selina must win, well just because she's Catwoman.

----------


## LostinFandom

As I kee saying its not about how Julia can beat Selina in combat it's about Julia (and the writers) constantly mocking Selina's sexuality and unrequited attention to Batman. It's been going on for months, it's one note and it's boring.

----------


## Nick Miller

things may not all be resolved, heading into Eternal 2.

Either way 6 issues are enough pages

----------


## Blacksun

It's very realistic julia take out catwoman. But i didn't liked the dialogue, just sounds very weird

----------


## Godlike13

How has Selina survived if she's that easy to defeat, and can't hold her own against someone with military training? Julia beat Catwoman in 3 moves. This is jobbing. They're clearly using Selina to help put over Julia. Thing is though its no fun when its that easy. Plus aren't they trying to push Cawoman too.

----------


## darkseidpwns

It's not just a simple question of who beats who or who has the power set necessary to beat another character,that is up to the writers. It's about EARNING the victory,Julia didnt earn a win over Selina and Croc certainly didn't earn one over Bane.

----------


## Naked Bat

Wasn't Seeley the writer of Ra's vilain month issue too? I remember Ra's being written spectacularly well in this issue.

----------


## Punisher007

> It's not just a simple question of who beats who or who has the power set necessary to beat another character,that is up to the writers. It's about EARNING the victory,Julia didnt earn a win over Selina and Croc certainly didn't earn one over Bane.


And what counts as "earning" a victory?  That is such a nebulous/subjective term that it's almost meaningless.

----------


## Punisher007

> How has Selina survived if she's that easy to defeat, and can't hold her own against someone with military training? Julia beat Catwoman in 3 moves. This is jobbing. They're clearly using Selina to help put over Julia. Thing is though its no fun when its that easy. Plus aren't they trying to push Cawoman too.


A highly-trained special forces operative.  No, I'm not seeing the problem with Selina getting taken down hard by someone like that, nor is it a "jobbing" imo.

----------


## Shinomune

> Wasn't Seeley the writer of Ra's vilain month issue too? I remember Ra's being written spectacularly well in this issue.


Nope, was James Tynion IV.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I love Seeley,he's my favourite Bat writer by far but he's been doing this for a while now and I find it frustrating, first it was Dick/Midnighter,then Bane/Croc and now Selina/Julia.


*Dick/Midnighter*- Dick only beat Midnighter in that fight because Midnighter was unaware that the Hypnos had a trigger word attached that would bring down the person using it. There was no possible way for Midnighter to have predicted that with his battle computer if he was completely unaware of that fact and it was something it would have been impossible for him to know. Thus,  Dick only "won" because of dumb luck and not brawn. If that fight had gone on longer it was pretty clear that Dick would have lost it and even he knew that, which is way Dick activated the trigger word in the first place. For these reasons I don't believe that Midnighter was "jobbed out" in order to make Dick look better. 

*Bane/Croc*- I don't really remember much about this one to be honest with you so I can't honestly say whether one was "jobbed" just so the other one would look good. Personally, I would expect that type of fight to either end up in a draw or with Venom enhanced Bane the victor so if Croc won that fight I might question it myself. 

*Selina/Julia*- I don't feel that Selina was being "jobbed" here either. She's not been out fighting in recent months because she's setting herself up as a mob boss and they don't do their own fighting. They tend to send underlings out to do the dirty work so to speak. Julia is a highly trained spy among other things so I would expect her to win a "fight" against Selina. I'm not entirely sure that even Selina's street fighting capabilities would necessarily give her a victory here. Having said that though I think it's also possible that Selina 1. doesn't want Julia to know how "trained" she is so she can get the better of her another time (and also because this isn't the time for that), which fits in perfectly with her mob boss angle and 2. she may have also "lost" the fight because she wants to get a sense of how "trained" Julia is and how she fights, again just for the information.

----------


## InSavnity

> *Bane/Croc*- I don't really remember much about this one to be honest with you so I can't honestly say whether one was "jobbed" just so the other one would look good. Personally, I would expect that type of fight to either end up in a draw or with Venom enhanced Bane the victor so if Croc won that fight I might question it myself.


We should remember that the _Eternal_ Bane/Croc fight is one of the few times in the latter's editorial life where Killer Croc doesn't charge his opponent head-on. Smarting from his defeat in the _Arkham War_ mini-series where he had been destroyed by Bane, his approach to the fight is avoiding close quarters and inflicting a "death by a thousand cuts" to his opponent, on the grounds that severe blood-loss will deprive Bane's muscle cells of their much needed Venom (it works).

----------


## K. Jones

> We should remember that the _Eternal_ Bane/Croc fight is one of the few times in the latter's editorial life where Killer Croc doesn't charge his opponent head-on. Smarting from his defeat in the _Arkham War_ mini-series where he had been destroyed by Bane, his approach to the fight is avoiding close quarters and inflicting a "death by a thousand cuts" to his opponent, on the grounds that severe blood-loss will deprive Bane's muscle cells of their much needed Venom (it works).


It's also important that Croc's intelligence has finally reasserted itself. I mean, from Hush onward Croc was always "mutating Croc", all animalistic, cannibalistic and while he had human moments (not wanting to be part of Black Mask II's operations and chewing his arm off to remove an implant), he was going all feral. But immediately prior to that he actually resembled the way he looked in Azzarello/Bermejo's JOKER GN. More human than ever ... with a Hawaiian shirt. (Wasn't the implication then that Hush is the one who monstrified him?)

Anyway, Croc is ironically one of the only A-List Batman Rogues who hasn't been overexposed with New 52 story. He's usually there in the kitchen sink scenarios but he's served no big functions anywhere, not in Snyder's book except a cameo in #1, not in B&R except a cameo in a recent issue, not in the Dark Knight, not in Detective. Pretty much just in the Villain's Month one-shot, Arkham War and now in Eternal.

But historically if his being mutated by Hush or whatever was the long, long low point after a history of starting out like a cunning gangster and devolving, he's on a huge uptick now back to his starting position. (Finally!)

Look, if Croc and Bane ever get a "Round Three" I fully expect Bane to win that fight. But I think it was important to give King Croc his crown. Now if we can just get more of his sewer society, I'll be a happy boy.

----------


## LostinFandom

Why is the reaction to Selina/Julia just about who would win and not the general slut shaming way Selina has been treated in this book from her first appearance?  

Why do two women who've never met before have to fight as they meet?

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Julia has been an asshole since the first time she appeared. It's part of her personality, so I don't have any particular problem with that.  However, I'm not into the whole using women to slut-shame other women thing. There are a ton of different ways to have your characters insult each other, but somehow the women always call each other sluts. So unimaginative.

Now, on to why Julia got the upperhand in a fight. That's pretty easy, tbh. She's (former?) british special forces and has trained and been on quite a bit of field missions. I can totally see her holding her own and even winning against some of the rogues & batfam.

----------


## AUScowboy

She was still an active agent as of ish 3 or 4 of Endgame. I actually really like Julia as a character, she both references an older version of the character (pre COIE?) and adds a pretty cool dynamic to what ive started referring to as Snyder's Bat-verse. Like when GMo got to build his epic, im along for the ride no matter what.. although Snyder's yarn is a different kind of beast altogether, I love it none the less.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

Depending on the end and reader reviews, I may get Eternal in Omnibus form...which is probably a long way away.  (Or I suppose I could custom bind it)

----------


## AUScowboy

> Depending on the end and reader reviews, I may get Eternal in Omnibus form...which is probably a long way away.  (Or I suppose I could custom bind it)


Good idea man, I may have to do the same. Takes up a ridiculous amount of longbox space. Ive seen a guys collection somewhere online of the original Batman and Detective runs. REALLY slick looking binding and spines with silver embossed Bat and Tec logos..classy stuff.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

> Good idea man, I may have to do the same. Takes up a ridiculous amount of longbox space. *Ive seen a guys collection somewhere online of the original Batman and Detective runs.* REALLY slick looking binding and spines with silver embossed Bat and Tec logos..classy stuff.


Which runs?  Recall what guy?  I'm just embarking on the custom binding train.  I've come up with sick custom bind of Knightfall thru Troika/Veng of Bane II....hope to have it bound in weeks or so.

----------


## AUScowboy

I remember the logo was from the 1990 Wolfman/Milligan/Grant era. Sound like you have a pretty thoughtful set up man, either post it up or send me pics once its bound. Honestly, if I could afford to bind any run Idont think Eternal sould crack my top 25 lol.

----------


## oanswat

Exactly, I don't know who Julia is but to be honest...Beating Catwoman in a fight would be pretty easy for anyone experienced in combat. The fact that she's shown being able to hold her own against batman is absolutely mind-blowing. Catwoman never left for years to go train with every combat and deception expert in the world like Bruce did. She's just a thief with a weird cat obsession and a bent towards S and M. Every time Catwoman is shown, they boost her to make her seem tough and relevant with no explanation as to how she became so skilled. She has more plot armor than Batman because she could literally survive anything with nothing but whip skills and some tumbling abilities. I literally hate Catwoman, I think she represents everything wrong about the entertainment gender gap. Batman is incredible so we need to shoehorn in a female rival, who put in none of the work to train for what she's doing, and put her on Batman's level because...well...gender equality. The only woman on Batman's level should be Wonder Woman, she's a bad ass who has earned her reputation and skills and I think she could out do him in almost every way. Really, anyone in the big 7 should be on his level but just about no one else and the idea that Catwoman could ever be an equal to Bruce is laughable. She's just a street rat with barely any training, like Jason Todd before he jacked Batman's wheels. Nowhere near Bruce's level.

Edit: I know who Julia IS, just not what she really has under her belt. Obviously she's a capable spy and special forces combat trained. In the end, I actually think she's the one responsible for bringing down Gotham. The whole Father/Daughter thing seems to be prevalent in this conspiracy, eternity/insanity is also a major theme. I think there are some reasons we haven't seen Alfred raise his daughter and I think she's not what she seems, she was just accepted much too easily into the Bat family and the cave and at a much too convenient time. She's literally running the cave, days at a time while everyone is off being superheroes.

----------


## oanswat

> Why is the reaction to Selina/Julia just about who would win and not the general slut shaming way Selina has been treated in this book from her first appearance?  
> 
> Why do two women who've never met before have to fight as they meet?


Because everyone in comics fight when they meet, it's like a staple. 

edit: Oh, and maybe Julia is a prude. I mean, she's all brittish and a government worker. Maybe she see's Selina as a slut and that's a negative for her. Selina is sexy, that's one of her traits, Julia's not, she didn't even cave-shower nude when she had been alone for days already and covered Hush's tank with a tarp. I think Selina would see her as an uptight douche.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

Pre-Reboot Catwoman was trained in Martial arts by a master and taught boxing by Ted Grant (Wildcat). Most of the time, I think she was underpowered when fighting in books not her own. She was still a far-cry from Batman and most of the Batfam's abilities but she could always hold her own as a fighter. 

Sadly, we don't know anything about her training or if she even had any in the new 52 so it's hard to say if Julia should or shouldn't have won their little spat so easily.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Because everyone in comics fight when they meet, it's like a staple. 
> 
> edit: Oh, and maybe Julia is a prude. I mean, she's all brittish and a government worker. Maybe she see's Selina as a slut and that's a negative for her. Selina is sexy, that's one of her traits, Julia's not, she didn't even cave-shower nude when she had been alone for days already and covered Hush's tank with a tarp. I think Selina would see her as an uptight douche.


But it's not just Julia. This is a title in which Selina's first appearance was hitting on a non responsive Batman while every other character was reacting to the train crash.  The  scene existed to show Falcone's first appearance and that he has history with Selina, so why did that have to start with her failed pass? It would later turn out that Batman didn't know she had any relation to Falcone, which furthers the impression that the writers don't have a way to write her besides reducing her to someone interested in  Batman and mocking her for it.

And while we're on the subject, Julia's a kind of depressing example of a "good" woman in the Bat-world. In her second issue she gets impaled so she's forced to learn that her estranged father is actually the most noble of professionals and take over his job while he's ill. That's her entire story.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Why is the reaction to Selina/Julia just about who would win and not the general slut shaming way Selina has been treated in this book from her first appearance?


Care to elaborate? I honestly haven't reacted to anything like that concerning Catwoman during Eternal, other than the general puerile ridiculousness of her costume(s) of course.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Care to elaborate? I honestly haven't reacted to anything like that concerning Catwoman during Eternal, other than the general puerile ridiculousness of her costume(s) of course.


The last post I did, right before this got into her the first appearance aspect.  Besides the fact that Julia has been making voice over commentaries about how gross Selina for months, Clayface using her relationship to Batman to reject her as an ally. She also got ties up to a pole in strip club. I remember thinking the near torture with Falcone was boarder line rape-y, but that may have just been me projecting the anxiety from Guillem March's previous work with the character.

----------


## Sans Simian

> Exactly, I don't know who Julia is but to be honest


She's Alfred's daughter. British special forces, and in Eternal and Endgame she's helping out in the Batcave as "Penny-Two". Hope that helps!

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> The last post I did, right before this got into her the first appearance aspect.  Besides the fact that Julia has been making voice over commentaries about how gross Selina for months, Clayface using her relationship to Batman to reject her as an ally. She also got ties up to a pole in strip club. I remember thinking the near torture with Falcone was boarder line rape-y, but that may have just been me projecting the anxiety from Guillem March's previous work with the character.


The slut shaming of Catwoman isn't limited to Eternal, you know. It was there in pockets of the old52 (Sterling Gates, Grant Morrison, PaulDini, etc) but definitely much more brazen and demeaning in the nu52 (Catwoman 1 set the tone). And of course When called out, the excuse they trot out is that Catwoman uses sex as a weapon (Jim Lee mansplaining Catwoman #1, David Finch interview on why he draws her with iron mountain boobs with her zipper down to her waist).

Anyway, I'm glad Gotham TV is taking a different tone with her and turning these stupid cliches on its head. I'm very pleased with her scene with Barbara tonight. It's basically a big f*** you to how she's been portrayed in the nu52.

----------


## Sans Simian

> The slut shaming of Catwoman isn't limited to Eternal, you know. It was there in pockets of the old52 (Sterling Gates, Grant Morrison, PaulDini, etc) but definitely much more brazen and demeaning in the nu52 (Catwoman 1 set the tone). And of course When called out, the excuse they trot out is that Catwoman uses sex as a weapon (Jim Lee mansplaining Catwoman #1, David Finch interview on why he draws her with iron mountain boobs with her zipper down to her waist).
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad Gotham TV is taking a different tone with her and turning these stupid cliches on its head. I'm very pleased with her scene with Barbara tonight. It's basically a big f*** you to how she's been portrayed in the nu52.


That scene tonight was _amazing_.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> That scene tonight was _amazing_.


Absolutely. In less than a year, these non comic guys have come up with a much more engaging teen Selina who's become a fan favorite (Camren's Twitter followers have exploded since the show). Contrast that to the sorry ass nu52 Catwoman woman who's constantly ridiculed and objectified by this inbred fanboy mentality.

----------


## LostinFandom

> The slut shaming of Catwoman isn't limited to Eternal, you know. It was there in pockets of the old52 (Sterling Gates, Grant Morrison, PaulDini, etc) but definitely much more brazen and demeaning in the nu52 (Catwoman 1 set the tone). And of course When called out, the excuse they trot out is that Catwoman uses sex as a weapon (Jim Lee mansplaining Catwoman #1, David Finch interview on why he draws her with iron mountain boobs with her zipper down to her waist).


I'm reluctant to blame the way Selina's written here in the New 52 because the examples you mention cover pretty much all of her appearances in the last years before the reboot. That said the slut shaming isn't limited to this book. I still say that the most degrading use of Catwoman in the New 52 was in _Batman The Dark Knight_ 18 where she lewdly hit on Batman leading him to really try to work things out with his girlfriend the pianist.  One more scene of knocking "bad girl" Selina to prop up a "good girl" character. Which brings us back to Julia.

----------


## Mr.Owl

Poor Alfred. Two Bat titles for today and DC just can't stop making his life hell. 

So,*spoilers:*
 lots of iconic Batman villians get their heart desires fulfilled by getting the crap they want a lot. Obviously Tommy's always wanted to be Bruce Wayne and I wonder whether the secret big bad also tries to give him (or gave already) something close to this dream? The big bad.... I'm so tired from his hiding. I hope he's not going to be reveald in the last 3 or 2 issues of Eternal. 
*end of spoilers*

Also I've got an impression of Julia having quite a big role in Eternal. I bet she does something in the end and it helps a lot.

----------


## Godlike13

Minus the Catwoman fight, i quite enjoyed this issue. They should have titled it "Rise of the new Oracle".

----------


## K. Jones

> Minus the Catwoman fight, i quite enjoyed this issue. They should have titled it "Rise of the new Oracle".


Ditto Secret Origins this week.

Julia's cool though. It was nice to see the facial-holo-mask used yet again. I always liked that thing. The Seeley script was strong as usual, though they really are trolling us with the mastermind reveals here. My big thing with Julia is like, "where the hell are her superiors?" She goes missing from Hong Kong doing what again? Reappears in Gotham (admittedly, on the down-low). You'd think they'd be wondering where the hell she is and making Batman's life miserable. But perhaps that's a story beat for June. (For that matter, is Mademoiselle Marie still her mom?)

At any rate, what do we know about shadow-man? He got the jump on Julia so we don't actually know if he's someone who can "take her in a fight" like her set-up as a fighter in the opening scene plays. He calls Tommy Tommy, which is an interesting notion considering that the odds are pretty good that his name is Tommy, too.

----------


## ispacehead

Who's to say Selina wasn't just toying with Julia to study her style? She was going to give Batman the information anyway.

In any event, I enjoyed this issue.

"An old friend of the family."  ???

Is Hurt involved after all?

My "Everything and the kitchen sink" theory seems to keep panning out as they've found a way to include everybody, even if only briefly. They've even squeezed Joker in, even if it wasn't really him.

So why not Hurt, I suppose. 

I still expect March as the ultimate string puller.

----------


## marcotheblerd

I really thought Julia's Spidey-esque mask with the bat logo was pretty damn cool. I dont know if she is going by a codename yet, but I love the look. For a supposed loner, Batman has the largest supporting team. It just keeps growing.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> Ditto Secret Origins this week.
> 
> Julia's cool though. It was nice to see the facial-holo-mask used yet again. I always liked that thing. The Seeley script was strong as usual, though they really are trolling us with the mastermind reveals here. My big thing with Julia is like, "where the hell are her superiors?" She goes missing from Hong Kong doing what again? Reappears in Gotham (admittedly, on the down-low). You'd think they'd be wondering where the hell she is and making Batman's life miserable. But perhaps that's a story beat for June. (For that matter, is Mademoiselle Marie still her mom?)
> 
> At any rate, what do we know about shadow-man? He got the jump on Julia so we don't actually know if he's someone who can "take her in a fight" like her set-up as a fighter in the opening scene plays. *He calls Tommy Tommy,* which is an interesting notion considering that the odds are pretty good that his name is Tommy, too.


I reacted to that as well, seems weirdly familliar for someone like March or Hurt. Then again, the only history of a buddy-relationship Hush has had with another villain is his teamup with Scarecrow from Heart of Hush, and I'm pretty sure it's not him... Still doesn't rule out Hugo Strange though. The dark horse still lives! 

Also, it seems like we might finally get to the teaser from Eternal #1 next week, with Batman being out of commission from having crashed his jet and the city being on fire and all.

----------


## chachi

best issue in a while. Great art. Hopefully last 5 issues are great as well.

----------


## Naked Bat

the art was amazing. Really. The issue was quite good, but it's time the mastermind shows himself. With all this talk about bruce being a single child, it seems to indicate it's indeed March. I have to say I'm getting tired of Alfred being tortured all the time in eternal and batman though.

----------


## SickAlice

Enjoyed this issue. Very on point and got the action moving proper. The art was nice as well.

----------


## Nick Miller

Harper Row was in this weeks Person of Interest, the Real Batman live action show.

Don't know if it was a deliberate nod.

----------


## LostinFandom

> Harper Row was in this weeks Person of Interest, the Real Batman live action show.
> 
> Don't know if it was a deliberate nod.


She was "Harper Rose", but I wondered about that too.

----------


## napolid

batman-eternal-48-preview/

Art: Fernando Blanco

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

That art style is interesting.

----------


## AUScowboy

Really starting to hope that it's March. If Snyder covers him in Eternal, he'll be dealt with. It's not that I  dislike the character, but I want to read new concepts and characters when we come back in June. Hell, I was one of the folks that wholly enjoyed the outcome of Court of Owls. I'll be totally one hundred if he ends up as Eternal's mastermind. It fits when you re-read all the issues, I recommend it actually. It's easy forget detail with a story this big.

----------


## godisawesome

Well, today's issue in a few words: **** gets worse. Everybody's tech starts to explode when Tommy messes with the computer, the baddies get the upper hand, Bats steals a jet, and the new commish tries to rescue the old commish.

Still think the latter half of Eternal has been moving at a snail's pace compared to it's first half. And I really think Robo-Bane is stupid; I'm actually liking Arkham War's interpretation for he character much more. By a lot.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

At this point, all of the big reveals and last-second rescues will happen in Eternal #52.

----------


## bat1987

> Still think the latter half of Eternal has been moving at a snail's pace compared to it's first half. And I really think Robo-Bane is stupid; I'm actually liking Arkham War's interpretation for he character much more. By a lot.


Agreed on both accounts. Wasn't a bad issue per say but its 4 issues to go, and I really wish they reveal the mastermind already. Don't want them to rush the ending, but it seems that's gonna happen.

----------


## Godlike13

Oh no, Gordon's poor butt. This is like the store room scene from Shawshank. Fight the good fight Jim, fight!

----------


## AUScowboy

...And the Lion will most likely sacrifice himself to save Gordo. It's also really starting to seem like our mastermind wont be revealed untill #50 or even later! This DOES bum me out, we the readers should have been introduced to him issues ago IMO...then a reveal to Bats at issh 49/50.

----------


## Shinomune

> At this point, all of the big reveals and last-second rescues will happen in Eternal #52.


Well...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/03/...-140-price-33/

----------


## Claude

> Well...
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/03/...-140-price-33/


Yiiiiikes.... Nice to know they found they had plenty of room to finish the story.  :EEK!:

----------


## jules

At this point, especially given the reveal of the bumper-sized issue #52, I'm willing to bet that the Big Bad will be revealed on the final page of issue #51 with a nice big cliffhanger.

Then #52 will be dedicated to figuring out how to deal with them.

They also need to spend some time mopping up afterwards, since most of the Bat-titles have sailed off into the future at this point, so can't be used to establish the new status quo. Hopefully a few of those 48 pages will be devoted to that.

----------


## ispacehead

Kind of a bummer that they give away the probable ending for 51 in the solicit for 52.

This issue was good but not wonderful.

RoboBane is lame.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

Most still thinking it's Lincoln March?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So when Hush hacks the gadgets coming from Waynetech, Jason's FREAKING *GUNS* explode

Are you serious?

----------


## ispacehead

> So when Hush hacks the gadgets coming from Waynetech, Jason's FREAKING *GUNS* explode
> 
> Are you serious?


Yeah, I was rolling my eyes at that as well.

----------


## ispacehead

> Most still thinking it's Lincoln March?


I still do.

But what the heck is Loser Squad up to?

Are they in March's employ? Or working with Hush?

Or is it just Hush after all?

----------


## jules

> I still do.
> 
> But what the heck is Loser Squad up to?
> 
> Are they in March's employ? Or working with Hush?
> 
> Or is it just Hush after all?


Maybe it's Signalman.

Working as his own minion.  :Smile: 

All the tech blowing up when Hush hacked the computers seems _way_ beyond the bounds of probability. Not all of it is electronic and/or microchipped, and surely not all their gear comes from Waynetech? Jason is too independent, and Harper's too new (and invents her own gadgets). As for Babs... if she's wearing that costume she ought to be getting her gear from her pal Qadir at college rather than Bruce, but there are hand-wavy indications that her title's set after Eternal so who knows?

Disrupting comms and giving them an earful of static... that would be plausible, and could be distracting enough to lose some of them their fights. The rest, not so much.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So when Hush hacks the gadgets coming from Waynetech, Jason's FREAKING *GUNS* explode
> 
> Are you serious?


*facepalm* So Waynetech is into making guns now are they and Jason just happens to have one of them?  :Confused:  I don't think so. Sorry but Jay isn't a typical regular member of Batman's posse and his guns are not the typical Bat gaget either. If his guns are modified in any way it would be with alien tech not Bat tech. He doesn't use the same toys as they do, might not have access to such toys and it's unlikely that his weapons supplier is Waynetech or Batman for that matter. He's got access to other sources for his weapons and frankly this took my right out of the story because of the implausibility of that happening. Blocking out com signals is one thing but everyone's tech just going haywire, not a chance. Seriously, what's next, exploding All Blades? Gah. Between that, RoboBane and Hush being back this was a pretty meh issue in my honest opinion.

----------


## Gokaifire

> I still do.
> 
> But what the heck is Loser Squad up to?
> 
> Are they in March's employ? Or working with Hush?
> 
> Or is it just Hush after all?


What about Owlman? Isn't he still at large after Forever Evil?

----------


## Bookem Danno

Ugh. A megathread. A dedicated one to 48 would be better IMO. 
Anyways, this was a solid installment all round. But could someone remind me *HOW Hush got out of his Batcell?* I read the issue but it either was not clear exactly how he overcame Penny2 or it's not registering. Either way, it's very illogical and problematic that remoted control of all the Batsidekicks is so all-inclusively convenient.  I liked the IOU detail a lot. If Penguey is smart he'll be dealing with Gordon rather than beating on him. Spoiler should have just undid her cape to escape her imminent slapdown. Vicki better post that memorystick data ASAP if she wants to regain credibility. Great cover.

Preview.
BMETRI-Cv48-ds-df770.jpg

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## TheNewFiftyForum

> Ugh. A megathread. A dedicated one to 48 would be better IMO. 
> Anyways, this was a solid installment all round. But could someone remind me *HOW Hush got out of his Batcell?* I read the issue but it either was not clear exactly how he overcame Penny2 or it's not registering. Either way, it's very illogical and problematic that remoted control of all the Batsidekicks is so all-inclusively convenient.  I liked the IOU detail a lot. If Penguey is smart he'll be dealing with Gordon rather than beating on him. Spoiler should have just undid her cape to escape her imminent slapdown. Vicki better post that memorystick data ASAP if she wants to regain credibility. Great cover.
> 
> Preview.
> BMETRI-Cv48-ds-df770.jpg


It was implied that Hush was let out from his cell by the unknown mastermind in issue #47. How he makes various Bat-equipment (including two ordinary guns) explode or why Bane would get off on walking around in a huge mecha are both still very unclear though.

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## Vil_Dee

> Most still thinking it's Lincoln March?


Nah.  What is the logic of a 52 issue series who's main focus is the mystery of a mastermind's identity, complete with red herrings, fake-outs, and purposefully convoluted plotlines just for it to turn out that the actual mastermind is the character who was on everyone's top two guesses before they even read the first issue?  The teaser image had an owl smack dab in the middle.  They were obviously not trying to direct you away from Lincoln March.  So what's issue#52 gonna look like "Surprise! The guy everyone thought it was since issue#1 is indeed the mastermind!  You sat through 52 issues to find this out, suckahs!"

I'll stick with my Joker guess.

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