# Comics  > Batman >  Controversial Batfamily Opinions

## Harpsikord

I've seen (and participated in) threads akin to this one in other boards on this forum, and thought it might be a good idea to stick one up here. Basically the premise is to post opinions about members of the batfamily, or the behind the scenes aspects, that you have realized are controversial opinions to have around these-- or most-- parts. Here are a few examples, and some of my own:

Bruce Wayne is hardly interesting; the rest of the batfamily are the more interesting ones.
Damian Wayne is probably better off dead.
Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is weak, whiny, and was an unnecessary character degradation.
Scott Lobdell is the best writer for Red Hood and the Outlaws.
I now consider Roy Harper and Starfire unofficial members of the batfamily.
Cassandra Cain is vastly unappealing.
The "Harley Quinn" series is trite and disgusting.

How about you guys?

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## brandnewfan

Batman is actually my least favorite character in the Batbooks.

Tim Drake should be gay.

Harley Quinn's solo book is boring and unfunny.

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## Claude

A Batman who gets on well with -  and has an honest, caring and friendly relationship with - the Bat Family is a more interesting and engaging character than Solo Batman or Untrusting Batman.

There shouldn't be a huge gulf between "Batman" and "Bruce Wayne".


Sooner or later, there needs to be a proper Red Hood batfamily story that addresses what on Earth everyone thinks about Jason Todd running happily about the place.

I'm not convinced that Stephanie Brown can carry her own title without being Batgirl - but she and Bluebird (and Carrie Kelly?) should work under Barbara on a new Birds Of Prey.



Dick Grayson has a more interesting dynamic with each and every other member of the Family than Bruce does.

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## Tupiaz

The batfamily is in general unimportant. 
For the most part the batfamily lack their own flavour and arch enemies.
Getting a new Robin nor or in the near future would be ridiculous.

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## BooCoo

Bruce should get married, with a wife that becomes an "oracle" type character balancing him out. Her reaction to his deep psychology and secrets? "Big deal."

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## tako

Dick Grayson should have sex with every woman in the DCU.

Wait, no, that's not an unpopular opinion. Everybody agrees.

Carry on.

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## HLOTS

Never liked the Dick/Tim relationship. Always found them annoying together. Glad they're not close anymore.

Loathe the Dick/Babs ship.

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## SiegePerilous02

With the exception of certain portrayals (Bat-God/Bat Jerk), Bruce is a way more interesting character than the majority of his sidekicks.
Dick is the only one that is absolutely essential to the mythos. Babs is a distant second, and the rest aren't even close. 
Dick-as-Nightwing works far better away from Gotham than he does in it.
I love Barbara as Oracle, but she'll always be Batgirl to me
There only needs to be two Robins, at most, in any given canon.
Damian is a far better Robin than Tim, but:
Carrie Kelley > Jason, Tim and Damian
Bullock and Montoya > the Batfamily
The classic villains, in their better portrayals, are way more interesting as well.

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## godisawesome

You can never have too many members of the Batfamily, and really the only thing that should be harped on an emphasized should be the little details that define their differences and their various levels of compassion and antagonism between each other:

Tim should not be played as completely graduated from Batman's sidekick yet. Instead, his MO should match his code name of being half promoted and half dependent. He needs strong connections to the family and some of his old history back and be experiencing growing pains. All of FabNic's issues should be referenced in continuity.

Damian should never have been killed. The latter half of. Batman Inc. was not worth killing off the the kid for some BS divorce allegory.

Cass Cain is easily the most awesome and creative Batgirl, Stephanie Brown is the most fun, and Babs should be the most dangerous but the decision to neuter her computer skills demotes the character below all her male peers. The latter should be rectified and all three should work together to create a huge geek-girl faction of comic readers united under the Bat's banner. I need comics to suggest to my sister, dagnabit!

Any attempt to comport or limit the Bat-family to the five year timeline of the New 52 should be smothered in its crib, buried, and then have it's tombstone peed on by Gene Simmons. Seriously, nothing good has come from the limited timeframe (Tim's new origin, fewer Batgirls, etc.) and all the good stuff has ignored it. Besides, Batman rocks as an experienced 30 year old.

Any relationship between Batman and Catwoman that has elements of the #1 issue will ruin the fun of the dynamic. Neither Bruce or Selina are that stupid, both have better standards, and it makes the entire UST feel wasted and tacked on. Either they know each other, or they aren't doing the hippity dippity.

Talia Al Ghul is wasted as a two dimensional villain, and the entire conception of Damian should be redefined. Broken hearts and genuine attempts at redemption for Mama Talia and appeals to Papa Bruce's dark side make a much better story than some quaint and heartless eugenics story. Just have them actually be in love because they have some common ground and separate over distances. Bruce has three adopted sons; he's the rare comic book character who actually can work older than his twenties.

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## LoneNecromancer

> Talia Al Ghul is wasted as a two dimensional villain, and the entire conception of Damian should be redefined. Broken hearts and genuine attempts at redemption for Mama Talia and appeals to Papa Bruce's dark side make a much better story than some quaint and heartless eugenics story. Just have them actually be in love because they have some common ground and separate over distances. Bruce has three adopted sons; he's the rare comic book character who actually can work older than his twenties.


No, that just makes for a "happy story". That doesn't make it "better".

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## oasis1313

> No, that just makes for a "happy story". That doesn't make it "better".


Three adopted sons and one adopted daughter (Cass).

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## Godlike13

Tim Drake needs to go. He's a creative sinkhole, void of any originality, and with this stupid 5 year time line he just clutters things up. 

Jason Todd needs to break bad again. 

I don't think Cass Cain is a very good character, and i don't think they should bring her back anytime soon. Sorry Cass fans. But with a five year time line there just really isn't the room for more characters who would, quite frankly, be with out a purpose or a role.

Kate Kane needs more of a personality.

DC has diminished "Nightwing" with the likes of Red Robin, Batwing, and new 52 Red Hood. So as much as i adore the Nightwing persona, i actually think that it might be good for Dick to ditch Nightwing for a bit. We have to many Nightwings right now.

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## son of booyah

Dick never should have taken the cowl off. And I believe that.

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## Step

New 52 Harley's characterisation has been pretty bad for the entirety of the new 52, the only one who got her right recently was Tom Taylor in Injustice, and that wasn't even new 52!

Her solo book isn't funny either, and the only reason I'm sticking around is cause she's my fav DC character and that might not even be enough for long.

I find the women of the batfam are far more interesting than the men in general.

Solo batman is not interesting to me.

I LOVE the Poison Ivy/Harley Quinn friendship but it doesn't make sense in the New 52, what with Poison Ivy being more of an anti-hero and Harley being more of a straight villain, either Ivy should influence Harley to be better or they should just break it off, hell they were fighting on opposite sides in the Gothtopia story arc, Harley's group captured Ivy, how are they still buddy-buddy?

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## Agent Z

> I don't think Cass Cain is a very good character


Not trying to pick a fight here, but could you explain this a bit better just so I know where you're coming from

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## retical

> New 52 Harley's characterisation has been pretty bad for the entirety of the new 52, the only one who got her right recently was Tom Taylor in Injustice, and that wasn't even new 52!
> 
> Her solo book isn't funny either, and the only reason I'm sticking around is cause she's my fav DC character and that might not even be enough for long.
> 
> I find the women of the batfam are far more interesting than the men in general.
> 
> Solo batman is not interesting to me.
> 
> I LOVE the Poison Ivy/Harley Quinn friendship but it doesn't make sense in the New 52, what with Poison Ivy being more of an anti-hero and Harley being more of a straight villain, either Ivy should influence Harley to be better or they should just break it off, hell they were fighting on opposite sides in the Gothtopia story arc, Harley's group captured Ivy, how are they still buddy-buddy?


Exactly. Their relationship does not make any sense.

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## Godlike13

> Not trying to pick a fight here, but could you explain this a bit better just so I know where you're coming from


She had a cool look, and on the surface the whole innocent silent ninja girl thing has an appeal, but in dept i just don't think she is a very compelling character. Her personality is too subtle, and her abilities make her undefeatable in the Batman setting. Undefeatable characters tend to be boring and limited, as i found Cass to be. Its hard for them to be physically challenged or there to be a credible struggle when a character is just so naturally good that they can beat anybody.

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## Agent Z

> She had a cool look, and on the surface the whole innocent silent ninja girl thing has an appeal, but i just don't think she is a very compelling character. Her personality is too subtle, and* her abilities make her undefeatable in the Batman setting*. Undefeatable characters tend to be boring and limited, as i found Cass to be. Its hard for them to be physically challenged or there to be a credible struggle when a character is just so naturally good that they can beat anybody.


See this is funny because I was under the impression that martial arts was pretty much all she could do. She wasn't good at reading or writing, didn't have great detective skills, was terribly socially inept etc. Seems she had more weaknesses than strengths sometimes. Anyway thanks for the reply, but we'll have to agree to disagree

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## nepenthes

_All Star Batman_ is the one and only origin of Dick Grayson 

_Dark Knight Strikes Again_ is the most fun ever had in Batman comics 

Scumachers Batman & Robin > The Dark Knight Rises

Batman should be shown to have a better diet - he should be constantly devouring protein bars on rooftops and mixing up shakes from tap water in peoples kitchens. 

Barbara Gordon can be Oracle AND Batgirl at the same time - see_ Batman Incorporated #8. _ 

Kate Kane and Maggie Sawyer should NOT be married....just yet. 

The Joker should be cured with neural surgery and hidden away from the world in the Batcave as Alfred's new apprentice.   

The Batman editors and DC in general should follow the lead of whats happening outside the comics more closely. In terms of content, style, marketing, cross promotion, everything. Comics are far too insular 





> Tim Drake should be gay.





> A Batman who gets on well with -  and has an honest, caring and friendly relationship with - the Bat Family is a more interesting and engaging character than Solo Batman or Untrusting Batman.
> 
> Dick Grayson has a more interesting dynamic with each and every other member of the Family than Bruce does.





> You can never have too many members of the Batfamily, and really the only thing that should be harped on an emphasized should be the little details that define their differences and their various levels of compassion and antagonism between each other:
> 
> Cass Cain is easily the most awesome and creative Batgirl, Stephanie Brown is the most fun, and Babs should be the most dangerous but the decision to neuter her computer skills demotes the character below all her male peers. The latter should be rectified and all three should work together to create a huge geek-girl faction of comic readers united under the Bat's banner. I need comics to suggest to my sister, dagnabit!


Agreed!

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## sidekick77

> See this is funny because I was under the impression that martial arts was pretty much all she could do. She wasn't good at reading or writing, didn't have great detective skills, was terribly socially inept etc. Seems she had more weaknesses than strengths sometimes. Anyway thanks for the reply, but we'll have to agree to disagree


But that one hook was often a large problem.  Because h2h was made to be her one godlike gift, writers would consistently have more powerful opponents attempt to defeat her with physical combat...  and predictably or unrealistically lose.

You had characters like Slade with abilities above peak human, but more importantly, who preps and executes strategies on par with Batman and who is a difficult villain for hero teams on a good day, suddenly decide "_Oh, I'm just going to walk up to Batgirl with h2h combat.  That'll work out well_."  The writing around her got lazy.

Not to say Cass or non-powered heroes can never win, but street level fighters need to use clever tactics if the plot calls in some heavy hitters.  By the time Cass was written to hatch a complex plan, she was unfortunately being written as a villain post-OYL.  

...So yeah, I guess chalk me up as having the unpopular opinion that Cass was an uninspiring read beyond her first two years.  Also, illiteracy is not a character flaw, it is a character _conflict_ which can be written for development or succeeded over.  Watching Cass slowly learn to read would have given her book more depth than being telepathically healed.  Another example of lazy writing that robbed her of continued interest.

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## neonrideraryeh

I find the Bat Family more interesting than Batman.  To me, Batman is defined by his allies and how he has been a mentor to them.  Without them, he wouldn't be as interesting to me.  Babs, Dick, Tim and Jason are all much higher on my favourites list than Bruce himself is.

Babs is best as Batgirl and should always be Batgirl instead of Oracle.  I'm glad her being Oracle before because Barbara still got to be involved in comics, but really they shouldn't have have had be shot in the first place.  I'm glad she's back to being Batgirl like she should be.  Like Bruce said to her recently "You were always meant to be Batgirl".  Though I do like to see her computer skills shown off some more.  
The past Batgirls are better with their own identities like Spoiler and Black Bat.  Though honestly I'm not too big a Cass fan because it gets a bit silly when she's like totally unbeatable and it gets more "Batgod" than Batman himself really.

Tim's New 52 outfit is great.  The old outfit was pretty bad, with that silly cowl without ears that made him look a bald guy haha.

Nolan Batman movies were pretty bad and I couldn't take his voice seriously.  Also whitewashing Bane is stupid and takes away what makes him who he is.

Dark Knight Returns is super overrated.  Frank doesn't have an ounce of understanding of Batman.

I think the Joker's story has run its course for now and he shouldn't come back for a long time.

I want to see more Detective stories where Batman has to solve a mystery rather than "oh it's Scarecrow again, he's right here to fight me" stories without much mystery.

Damian shouldn't come back for a long long time, because his death would be cheapened by it.

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## greenish lantern

Jason Todd is a better villain or deadman than hero.
Red Robin is a terrible name, as is the character.
Barbara Gordon was better as Oracle than Batgirl.
Dick Grayson should be Batman, and Damian should be his Robin.
Bruce should just find happiness already, I pity that guy  :Frown: 
Too many sidekicks/heroes in Gotham.
Blue Bird, her brother, Jason Todd, Batwoman's side kick should al die. The Batman is losing his originality.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Morrison's and Snyder's run are overrated and good at best, mediocre at worst.

Tomasi is a mediocre writer that it needs to go.

Damian should've never died.

Eternal is boring and dumb.

Cassandra is better on the comic book limbo.ç

I really enjoy writers trying new thing with Jason and keeping him he farthest away from Gotham as possible.

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## failo.legendkiller

Robin mantle has to be only for a male character.

Nightwing is not a light version of Batman, i'll miss him so much in the New52.

Unveil to the world Dick's secret ID is the worst thing they could do to the character. I can (hardly) bear the spy stuff, but why subtract him of his secret ID? I'll never understand.

Jason Todd should be dead for good.

Harley Quinn who? Never liked her and i don't care what she does.

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## mathew101281

Oracle is a better character then Batgirl for several reasons. 
1. She's a more unique character. Between Huntress, Batwoman and Spoiler how many Female Batman Analogues do we need? 
2. With the exception of Batgirl year 1 all the good Barbera Gordon stories are Oracle stories. 
3. Oracle plays a more important role in the DCU then Batgirl ever will. Putting her back in costume is almost a demotion.

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## Harpsikord

Exactly _what_ about Huntress and Spoiler are Batman analogues, though? Saying every vigilante is a Batman analogue simply because they fight crime without powers isn't fair.

That said, I agree about Oracle being a better character and persona for Babs than Batgirl.

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## ABH

*This thread is a good place to vent frustration -- but any posts that are seen as insults to fans of certain characters, will be deleted.*

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## Harpsikord

> *This thread is a good place to vent frustration -- but any posts that are seen as insults to fans of certain characters, will be deleted.*


For the record, it wasn't my intention to flame-bait or anything. I've just realized on other boards - Spider-Man and the X-Books, specifically - that these kinds of threads seem to be good for discussion and helps to get to know another poster better, what their likes and dislikes are. The intent wasn't to bring about any in-fighting.

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## ABH

> For the record, it wasn't my intention to flame-bait or anything. I've just realized on other boards - Spider-Man and the X-Books, specifically - that these kinds of threads seem to be good for discussion and helps to get to know another poster better, what their likes and dislikes are. The intent wasn't to bring about any in-fighting.


No, I know -- this thread is exactly what it should be "Controversial Batfamily Opinions", and I have no issue with that. 

Saying why you dislike 'X' is fine (as long as it's done in a civil manner), but anything that sounds like a dig at fans of 'X', will be removed. That's all I'm saying.

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## byrd156

The new 52 should only have Batman and Robin. No other Batfamily members yet.

Dick Grayson should be Robin and leading the Titans. The Titans should be the original sidekicks like they should be.

Changes to the Family:

I think the BTAS version of Tim Drake should be the New 52 one.

Jason Todd shouldn't exist.

Barbra should be Oracle and Stephanie should be Batgirl.

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## Vil_Dee

Batman is not Mike Brady and should not have a Brady Bunch.  He's not warm and cuddly.  His relationship with his "family" should be dysfunctional.

Damian should have been erased in the reboot.

Unlike the other Robins, being a douche suits Tim well. 

I thought I hated Punisher Todd, but then I was introduced to the "Dean Winchester in a Kung Fu movie set in space" version, now Punisher T doesn't look so bad anymore

I'm still trying to figure out the mass appeal of Dick Grayson other then the fact that he's a good looking dude performing acrobatics in a suit that might as well be body paint. . .oh, ok, nevermind.

Every Babs Batgirl appearance since the reboot can be summed up with one eye roll. 

Batwoman had the potential to be a successful solo character, but they ruined the good will she got from Elegy by separating her from the Batverse (know who's paying your bills, girl). Now it's too late for the title to be salvaged.

Is it official yet, anti-hero Catwoman is a flop?  After over a decade of mediocrity and poor comic book sales, can we safely say that most people aren't here for Robin Hood Selina.  It looks like DC has finally realized this. Now please hurl those god forsaking goggles into Mount Doom already.

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## Aioros22

The family is what makes Bruce stand out as a character. That being said, half the problems steem because this guy keeps shooting himself in the foot when it comes to "rules" and "trust".

All the former Robins are more interesting than Batman is. 

I like Damian as an aristrocrat ass, not as Jason 2.0. Sorry kid, you can`t pull sarcasm the same way. 

Ratho has been the fun bat title for the most part. 

Those Drake wings have got to GO. 

Jason Todd should keep evolving as a character. He`s not the Punisher. Hey, have him break the 4th Wall to adress the fandom. 

Make solo Todd stories more noir in the core "I`m about to bust that slave trade ring..air is cold and I could kill for a pizza".

Let Alfred be the father of the family since Bruce is terrible at it. In fact, make him interact differently with each one, but making sure he considers them his "boys". 

Give Dick a stable of characters to interact with. A life, anything, outside of being the younger brother of Batman.

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## dropkickjake

Dick Grayson was a far more interesting Batman than Bruce has ever been. 

Bruce and Damian do not work as a Dynamic Duo. They are both too dark; there is little in the way of interesting contrast. Damian should always be paired with Dick, whether he is Batman or Nightwing.

Jason alone works best as street level anti hero. Jason with Kory and Roy should be a gallivanting crew of space bounty hunters.

Each Batfamily title needs its own distinct direction. Having a half dozen angsty street level vigilantes can only be so interesting.

The Batfamily works best when it is big and multilayered, with Batman being the head of the family and Grayson being the glue that keeps it all together (as well as clear second in command).

Babs should have the use of her legs, but should have grown out of Batgirl into something else.

Tim works best as a solo detective, not a leader of Titans, Young Justice, or any other group. I liked the character direction during his solo series under Yost.

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## neonrideraryeh

Dick should never rejoin the Teen Titans.  Neither should Cyborg, Starfire or such.  It would be a demotion.  Those characters are all grown up now as adults and in better places for them like being an Outlaw or in the League.  People need to stop trying to recreate the '80s and making them be "teens" again, which would be a detriment to the characters.  The new lineup is better now because it's the current teen generation and isn't pointlessly recreating the past.  It's annoying how people are bias against the current characters just because it's not the old lineup, rather than about the actual quality of the characters.  I get that some people don't like Lobdell but that doesn't mean they have to hate everything about the lineup, just because it's not the old one.  Dick Grayson, Cyborg, Starfire and Roy Harper are not teens anymore, so people need to get over that and stop hampering character growth for the sake of nostalgia.  Even pre-New 52, the characters had mostly grown out of the team.  I don't want the same Titan stories forever.

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## oasis1313

> Dick Grayson was a far more interesting Batman than Bruce has ever been. 
> 
> Bruce and Damian do not work as a Dynamic Duo. They are both too dark; there is little in the way of interesting contrast. Damian should always be paired with Dick, whether he is Batman or Nightwing.
> 
> Jason alone works best as street level anti hero. Jason with Kory and Roy should be a gallivanting crew of space bounty hunters.
> 
> Each Batfamily title needs its own distinct direction. Having a half dozen angsty street level vigilantes can only be so interesting.
> 
> The Batfamily works best when it is big and multilayered, with Batman being the head of the family and Grayson being the glue that keeps it all together (as well as clear second in command).
> ...


I like these suggestions.  I would give Dick and Damian their own book, too.  And I agree that Tim should have his own solo detective book; if "Grayson" sells, maybe we'll soon see "Drake".

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## byrd156

> Dick should never rejoin the Teen Titans.  Neither should Cyborg, Starfire or such.  It would be a demotion.  Those characters are all grown up now as adults and in better places for them like being an Outlaw or in the League.  People need to stop trying to recreate the '80s and making them be "teens" again, which would be a detriment to the characters.  The new lineup is better now because it's the current teen generation and isn't pointlessly recreating the past.  It's annoying how people are bias against the current characters just because it's not the old lineup, rather than about the actual quality of the characters.  I get that some people don't like Lobdell but that doesn't mean they have to hate everything about the lineup, just because it's not the old one.  Dick Grayson, Cyborg, Starfire and Roy Harper are not teens anymore, so people need to get over that and stop hampering character growth for the sake of nostalgia.  Even pre-New 52, the characters had mostly grown out of the team.  I don't want the same Titan stories forever.


Have you ever read the series Titans? It was pretty good until Helfer ruined the ending for the series. It showed how all the characters had grown up but decided to get the team together. The Titans isn't and never will be a demotion of a character the whole point of the Teen Titans was to show that the original sidekicks could work together and away from their mentors so they could grow up into their own heroes. 

The whole reason I hate the new 52 Teen Titans is because there isn't a sense of family and belonging that the Titans did in the pre 52 Teen Titans and Titans. The Titans are family first, Team book second. Since the New 52 was supposed to be a reboot why not have Dick back as Robin and create the Teen Titans. Its not treading old ground as long as its not the same stories and most people who complain about the "same stories" haven't even read all the issues. In the 80's the Teen Titans weren't even teens except Cyborg and Beast Boy. Go watch Linkara's March of the Titans, he really shows off how great the team was and how important it was. http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...e-team-history

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## byrd156

> Dick should never rejoin the Teen Titans.  Neither should Cyborg, Starfire or such.  It would be a demotion.  Those characters are all grown up now as adults and in better places for them like being an Outlaw or in the League.  People need to stop trying to recreate the '80s and making them be "teens" again, which would be a detriment to the characters.  The new lineup is better now because it's the current teen generation and isn't pointlessly recreating the past.  It's annoying how people are bias against the current characters just because it's not the old lineup, rather than about the actual quality of the characters.  I get that some people don't like Lobdell but that doesn't mean they have to hate everything about the lineup, just because it's not the old one.  Dick Grayson, Cyborg, Starfire and Roy Harper are not teens anymore, so people need to get over that and stop hampering character growth for the sake of nostalgia.  Even pre-New 52, the characters had mostly grown out of the team.  I don't want the same Titan stories forever.


There are four parts to the retrospective and its really good.

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## swing kinker

Post crisis Jason Todd was exactly what Batman needed at the time and although I think it's a shame he was killed off, it also lead to a lot of pathos and motives

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## MidTierHero

I really don't understand Bat fans who seem to love the extended bat family, but can't stand Batman himself. He's the core from which everyone else emanates. 

Batman acts to intimidate thugs, and strangers, but he shouldn't be pulling that act with his clsoe friends and family. "Psycho Batman" is as much of an act as "Drunk Playboy Bruce Wayne" - it's a persona he puts on to do a job. He doesn't use it on people who know better. 

Steph Brown's Batgirl series was pretty much the best depiction of Batgirl ever.

Batman can go toe-to-toe with any non-meta H2H fighter. He needs to stop jobbing to make other characters look good.

Cass Cain needs to stay in Limbo. Or be revamped as someone who's not in the Bat family; she was shoehorned in by her creator in the first place. 

Batman can and should be used in all different types of stories - sci-fi, magic, ninja, vampire, street crime, world crime conspiracies.

It's silly to try and put exact date periods on the tenures of the various Robins.

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## Diggy

None of the Batman movies before Nolan are any good (except maybe the Adam West one)

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## chipsnopotatoes

> Is it official yet, anti-hero Catwoman is a flop?  After over a decade of mediocrity and poor comic book sales, can we safely say that most people aren't here for Robin Hood Selina.  It looks like DC has finally realized this. _Now please hurl those god forsaking goggles into Mount Doom already._


Woohoo! I'm not alone! Can we trample it a few times before we hurl it?

Also: 90's unabashed "I'm doing it for me" fun thief Catwoman > Brubaker conflicted "protector of East End get my friends and family in trouble" Catwoman

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## The_Greatest_Username

-I love Barbara Gordon as Batgirl and Oracle, but if I had to choose I'd prefer for her to be Batgirl.
-Helena Bertinelli >>> Helena Wayne
-Tim Drake should be gay.
-4 Robins ruins the whole "5 years" thing. Comics should almost never give real time frames.
-I like that Cassandra Cain adds diversity to the Batverse, but she doesn't interest me as a character and her look isn't that original.

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## Pharozonk

Tim Drake is the best Robin.

Damian Wayne is not likable, not even in an endearing jerk way.

Stephanie Brown hasn't been tolerable since she stopped being Spoiler

Jason Todd has only gotten even more interesting since his return from death. 

Catwoman is only interesting as an anti-villain.

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## Hoosier X

Barbara Gordon should run for Congress again.

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## The Kid

Batman is the best character in the franchise and I wouldn't be upset if he was the only character in Gotham
Damian Wayne is the best Robin since Dick Grayson
Tim Drake is useless and the biggest Mary Sue in the Batfamily
Jim Gordon is the second most important character in Gotham after Batman
The Dark Knight Returns is a classic story

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## Diggy

> The Dark Knight Returns is a classic story


This isn't controversial at all lol. A vocal minority on this site dislike it because its not their idea of a traditional Batman I guess, but I think it's pretty widely considered a top 5 graphic novel of all time in general.

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## Sacred Knight

The Nolan Trilogy is really good, but vastly overrated nonetheless. 
Michael Keaton remains the best actor to ever play Batman/Bruce Wayne.
Damian is the second best Robin, behind only Dick Grayson.

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## The Kid

> This isn't controversial at all lol. A vocal minority on this site dislike it because its not their idea of a traditional Batman I guess, but I think it's pretty widely considered a top 5 graphic novel of all time in general.


I know lol but it could be controversial here

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## dupersuper

> Robin mantle has to be only for a male character.


Um    ...why?

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## lancerman

Not to rain on anybody's parade or get down on anyone, but the reason these "controversial opinions" threads aren't all that great is because there isn't an opinion I've seen in here that I a haven't seen on this site by someone else before. Just kind of seems redundant.




> Um    ...why?


Playing devil's advocate on this one you could make the argument that Robin was created so the young boy readers could have a character to resonate with and latch on to. And since Batman is still a character that primarily gains new fans when they are young boys, the Robin character can still serve that purpose. Meanwhile the Steph Brown version of Robin was generally a failure. And the Carrie Kelly version was created in a comic that wouldn't be aimed at a younger readership and was explicitly used to subvert the norms of the original Batman tropes, and shouldn't be taken as the default. 

Though I guess you could equally argue that today in modern comics it doesn't matter as much since you don't have kids picking up these comics and any decision hence forth is more for literary creativity. I just still highly doubt a female Robin would take off in the mainstream the same way a male would. Even Damian was a perfect vehicle for the 21st century kid who is a little more entitled and savvy than his 1940's counterpart.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Um    ...why?


Because there are dynamics of relationship between Batman and Robin that can be strong only with a male charcter. 
The relationships teacher/student, father/son, older brother/brother work better if the sexual element is totally out.
If you put a female in this role, it will bring troubles for sure.

Robin is a character that for definition needs his Batman, his tutor, his mentor, a Partner. Batfamily girls are all less under the influence of the Bat than a Robin is.
Hardly he goes flying solo, Tim Drake did it very well in the 90's, just because he did it always staying at the rules of his mentor (under his influence).

With Damian DC crossed the line, creating a new frontier for the Robin legacy: With the son of the bat, more of the relationships between Batman and Robin are changed for good. This is the reason beacuse, the ultimate Robin is, and forever will be, Damian Wayne. Maybe a new son, or a daughter (in this case i can accept it) will carry on the mantle of Robin, but i think that 4 (or 5 or 6?) Robins are enough.

----------


## Vinsanity

- Poison Ivy should be a Nightwing villain like in a way of Catwoman Batman
- I like Tim Drake as a cocky arrogant smart ass jerk. He is trained by Batman and gets to do cool things, surely he has to have a massive ego in a way
- I prefer Bruce Greenwood over Kevin Conroy
- Jason Todd is better in New52 than ever before sicne he came back from the dead
- We need to see more Bruce Wayne. Yes I know Wayne is the mask but I want to see it
- Terry should have hooked up with Chelsea not Dana....heh
- Batman Beyond is better than BTAS
- I find Stephanie Brown a dull character even as Batgirl because she just comes off well dull. I don't know hot to explain it but yeah.
- DKR is one of the most average popular Bat books I've read
- Can we have one woman either not get killed (Vesper, Silver or that Piano girl) or leave Bruce (Silver) for a long long while. Then make her leave without killing her.
- Bring back Sarah Essen Gordon and not kill her either
- Batwing should be given a better role in Bat Fam since Dick has gone all Ethan Hunt

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

Grayson should still be Batman, or else Batman & Nightwing should be a permanent team-up as equals, 24/7 in Gotham. No "Be his own man somewhere else stuff." Just double Batman action. 



Also, not relevant, but kill of Ventriloquist and Mad Hatter.

----------


## M L A

I'm actually looking forward to reading Grayson. I also don't mind the whole gun thing.

While _Batgirl_ was a good insight to Cass and how she ticks and how she thinks, I thought it was, for the most part, boring. She works much better when she has upbeat characters (like Tim and Steph) to bounce off of, and there wasn't nearly enough of that.

I don't want Tim to go back to being Robin.

----------


## dupersuper

> Because there are dynamics of relationship between Batman and Robin that can be strong only with a male charcter. 
> The relationships teacher/student, father/son, older brother/brother work better if the sexual element is totally out.
> If you put a female in this role, it will bring troubles for sure.


Like keeping him male has taken the sexual element out of it...

----------


## keeen

Batman should not be in the Justice League.

----------


## godisawesome

> No, that just makes for a "happy story". That doesn't make it "better".


Sorry to be so late on responding to this, but I don't mean I want Bruce and Talia to have a happy love life or to have Talia be a hero; I just think that if a character is directly linked to the Batfamily, they should be compelling, which the Leviathan Talia was not.

She can still be an evil overlord who overthrows her father. She can still try and murder millions of people. She can still order or nearly tolerate the death of her son. But she should have characterization and personality that both allow for that, and that still heartens back to her most sympathetic depictions. I'm not interested in a femme fatale Baby Mama of evil who makes Fah Lo Suee look like a multifaceted character; I want to see how a woman could love Batman and even start a family with him before transforming into a ruthless monster that makes even Ra's Al Ghul feel she's gone too far. That journey and that nuance was tossed out the window for stupid damn reasons, and the entire eugenics/rape idea sucks compared to what it could be.

----------


## phonogram12

Everything from Batman RIP to the beginning of the New 52 is pretty much unreadable.

Bat-Jerk is Best Batman.

Tim Drake is the best Robin second only to Dick.

Dick makes a terrible Batman.

Tomasi and Dini wrote the only likable versions of Damien.

I never realized just how great of a character Steph Brown was as Spoiler until she became terrible versions of both Robin and Batgirl.

Although I love the iconography of Babs-as-Batgirl, she's far outgrown the role.

Cass is realistically the best Batgirl.

The only writer to get Jason Todd right is Scott Lobdell (this one even blew my mind).

Balent drew Catwoman as a porn star. Brubaker and Cooke were the only writers to get Selina right.

Along with Nolan's Batman, Loeb's from Long Halloween and Dark Victory is pretty bland.

----------


## oasis1313

I hate Bat-Jerk.

I like Titus, Alfred the Cat, Bat-Cow, and the turkey from Lil' Gotham.  They should have their own book:  Bat-Pets (heavily concentrating on The Adventures of Bat-Cow).

Bruce should think of Batman as his legacy to Gotham City, and have different divisions of Wayne Enterprises run by Dick (Public Relations and/or the Pin-Up Division), Tim (Accounting), and Damian (CEO-in-Training).  Jason can head the Accounts Receivable Department for Wayne Enterprises and collect on outstanding debts to the company.

Alfred the Amazing Butler should be an ongoing monthly title.

Talia should show up a few times a year as The Ex from Hell and demand child support money from Bruce.

Batman admits that his life wouldn't be worth living without the Joker.

Two-Face gets plastic surgery and Harvey Dent becomes a good-guy crusading district attorney.

Wayne Manor gets termites.

----------


## Diggy

Prior to Incorporated I wanted Batman to marry Talia, and I always thought they were the most interesting match. 

Now that Talia is off the table I want Batman's relationship with Selina to actually go somewhere, instead of seeing "it can't be Selina" for the 100000th time.

----------


## Raichi

-Dick Grayson should still be Batman, Dick was way more interesting than Bruce returning as Batman
-Bruce should of never return to the Bat Mantle after he came back, He should of instead became something like the Oracle especially in the New 52
-Tim Drake should of never been called (the laughable) Red Robin and instead he should of taken over the Nightwing Mantle during the whole transitioning period.
-Bruce should change his mind and get more seriously into a romantic relationship instead of the usual temporary love interests
-Batman needs more diversity in his Robin lineup than the usual straight caucasian child he finds like why can't Tim be interested only in guys and also be half Asian?
-No live action Batman movie to this date really captures Bruce Wayne/Batman.

----------


## Michael24

At the end of the day, I like my Batman to be Bruce Wayne, my Robin to be Dick Grayson, and my Batgirl to be Barbara Gordon.

That's kinda how I grew up with them, and I don't like when multiple people start taking turns as the same identity.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> Balent drew Catwoman as a porn star.


And Zod Bless him for that! Balent Catwoman is the sexiest Catwoman, and always be drawn that way (except perhaps in black & not purple).

The 60's show is...terrible. It looks fantastic & authentic to the comic of the time, but Adam West was really bad and he should feel bad. And yes, I know the camp was intentional...it doesn't make it good.

Dick should have moved on from costumed crime fighting after being Robin, and should have gone into law enforcement full-time. This would give Bruce another ally in the PD besides Gordon. 

Jason should have died heroically *while following Bruce's orders*, and remained dead. 

There is no in-story reason for Tim to be gay. What would this serve, story-wise? How would it make him a more interesting character? Instead, as much as I liked Tim pre-52, he should just not exist in the N52.

Villains do not constantly need 6-issue evil plans. I like those, but occasionally just give me 22 pages of "Two-Face robbing the 2nd National Bank on the 2nd of February. Again."  Sometimes I miss those. 

Joker works best as a mass murderer / serial killer type. The absolute dark mirror to Batman. Batman is order & never kills, Joker is chaos & kills everyone when he's done with them. 

Joker should be used sparingly, and only with permission of DC higher-ups. Make his appearances special, and only by the best writers. 

Joker works better as a Heath Ledger type. The white skin is makeup. Scars for a smile. No acid bath. 

Joker should be that one badguy that Batman can never catch. 

KnightQuest: The Search is better than people say. If Batman can be on the JL, then having his back healed by "magic" works just fine. 

AzBats era was one of the funnest, and although his descent to madness was predictable it was still fun to watch. 

Snyder couldn't write a decent ending if his life depended on it. 

Morrison's run is the best Batman run of all-time, and should have been the "final" Batman story of the Post-Crisis era. 

Christian Bale's Batman voice is great, and is the only realistic voice that could be used. If you saw a guy in a Bat costume at night, talking like mostly normal but with a whisper, you'd laugh at him. If Bale's Batman grabbed you at night, you'd sh!t your pants. Not necessarily because you'd think a giant bat creature was in front of you, but you'd see this guy & think "holy crap, this dude is crazy! I hope he doesn't have rabies or something". 

New 52 batsuit design is one of the best batsuits ever in the comics. It would be #1 if it were all-black, though. 

Batman should never have "special" suits ("The Insider" suit from Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, the "armored Iron-Man thing from Snyder's Court of Owls, etc.). If he has flightsuits sitting around, why would he ever leave the cave without them?

And finally...

Bruce should have a romantic relationship, a SERIOUS relationship, with a regular woman. NO heiress to a fortune. NO villain in disguise (Jezebel). No daughter-of-villain (Talia). No villain herself (Catwoman). No news reporter (Vicki Vale), no radio personality, no doctor, no cop. NOBODY that could ever serve a purpose for Batman in any way, shape, or form. A complete nobody. Just someone for Bruce to love, and someone to love him back. 

She never gets killed off. And she should know everything about him, and be supportive of it.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Oh, and Batman vs Predator is in the top 10 of greatest Batman stories of all-time. Writing & art don't get much better than this here. Should be given a deluxe hardcover treatment.

----------


## Diggy

Why do so many of you want Tim Drake to be gay? His character has never been gay, it doesn't make any sense... Snyder has already written a gay character, in the form of Cullen (and possibly Harper) Row. Homosexuality is not so common that there needs to be multiple relevant gay characters in the mythos...

----------


## Billy Batson

> Why do so many of you want Tim Drake to be gay? His character has never been gay, it doesn't make any sense...


*But but Tim and Kon...
*

----------


## Diggy

> Morrison's run is the best Batman run of all-time, and should have been the "final" Batman story of the Post-Crisis era.


Yeah, I really agree with this one. During Batman Inc I really started to feel like I was reading the grand finale of the Bat mythos. I think the ending of Inc is pretty effective for that point, where we see that no matter what happens or how bad things get, Batman keeps on fighting and "Batman & Robin will never die." Now I personally think of Morrison's run as the climax and epilogue of the Batman's story, since the New 52 is technically a new world I guess.

----------


## Mr. Mastermind

> Why do so many of you want Tim Drake to be gay? His character has never been gay, it doesn't make any sense... Snyder has already written a gay character, in the form of Cullen (and possibly Harper) Row. Homosexuality is not so common that there needs to be multiple relevant gay characters in the mythos...


The whole "Tim is gay" thing comes from him being a teenage boy that refuses to have sex with girls with supermodel looks (then again, that seem to be the norm in the DCu) and his strong bromance with Kon, to the point where he creepily tries to clone him.

As for my controversial opinions...

The Burton films are really bad and so is the Batman character in them.

Rucka ruined Talia, not Morrison.

Alot of the women Rucka writers are all pretty similar. They're good characters, but he writes them way too predictably.

Tim is an awful character that should have been erased with the reboot. He now just clogs up the timeline.

Babs as Batgirl just doesn't work for me, even before the reboot. Oracle is just a better version of the character.

The Long Halloween is pretty good, but each Loeb effort in the Batverse gets worse and worse until the crap that is Hush.

Catwoman is better as a more villainous type, but if she is to be a hero I'd rather see her in a comitted relationship with Batman instead of the "will they, won't they" schtick which has gone on for too long now.

The Joker is still a good villain, despite Snyder's effort.

Snyder's work deserves neither the intense praise or hatred it gets.

Batman had the punch from GL Rebirth coming.

----------


## Billy Batson

> The whole "Tim is gay" thing comes from him being a teenage boy that refuses to have sex with girls with supermodel looks (then again, that seem to be the norm in the DCu) and his strong bromance with Kon, to the point where he creepily tries to clone him.






> Alot of the women Rucka writers are all pretty similar. They're good characters, but he writes them way too predictably.


*Agreed.*

----------


## Diggy

> The whole "Tim is gay" thing comes from him being a teenage boy that refuses to have sex with girls with supermodel looks (then again, that seem to be the norm in the DCu) and his strong bromance with Kon, to the point where he creepily tries to clone him.


Ah alright well at least there's some basis in it

----------


## Pharozonk

My thoughts continued:

The Nolan Batman movies range from boring to good enough to terrible. 

Scarecrow is the best Batman villain.

Morrison's Batman work is boring and overrated. 

Cassandra Cain should never have given the Batgirl moniker to Stephanie Brown.

Doug Moench is one of the best Batman writers.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

The characters and stories of the Burton films were terrible, and both movies were needlessly silly even when they tried to be dark.

Keaton's Batman voice should be just as maligned as Bale's.  All he does is whisper.

Snyder's first few storylines in the Nu52 were mediocre retreads of material that's been done better before.

Jason should never have been brought back.

Had DC ever been willing to have a real female Robin Stephanie Brown would have been even better in the role than she later was as Batgirl.

Batman Beyond is a mediocre cartoon.  I dislike pretty much everything about it, from the future Gotham, to crochety Bruce, to Terry's costume.

The Batman is very underrated.  It's not close to BTAS, but it gets a lot right.

TNBA that ran alongside the Superman cartoon wasn't anywhere near as good as the earlier BTAS.  Too much batjerk.  Lame new villains.  Overall worse designs.  And Batman became a pushover for having so much trouble with these lame villains.

Subzero is the best direct to video Batman film.

2000s Batman was a much bigger jerk than 90s Batman.

No Man's Land was the last good Batman crossover until Morrison.

For a modern setting I feel only Tim and Damian work as male Robins, because the whole 'Bruce's ward' thing doesn't fly in this day and age, and it makes the secret identity thing even more ridiculous.  With the Nu52 now none of them work and the whole concept has been reduced to a joke.

At a certain point the escalation becomes so bad that I just have to declare Batman a complete and utter failure.  The previous continuity reached that point with War Games.  So far the Nu52 hasn't reached that point.  For once the 5 year timeline helps a little, and there's a better explanation for why the gang war is so bad in Eternal.

I don't like Catwoman as a romantic interest.  She's better as a villain most of the time.

Dick/Starfire>Dick/Babs.

----------


## Blight

> Oh, and Batman vs Predator is in the top 10 of greatest Batman stories of all-time. Writing & art don't get much better than this here. Should be given a deluxe hardcover treatment.


This is one of my favorite tales too. I wish they had a new edition of it too.

----------


## cgh

> _All Star Batman_ is the one and only origin of Dick Grayson 
> 
> _Dark Knight Strikes Again_ is the most fun ever had in Batman comics 
> 
> Scumachers Batman & Robin > The Dark Knight Rises
> 
> Batman should be shown to have a better diet - he should be constantly devouring protein bars on rooftops and mixing up shakes from tap water in peoples kitchens. 
> 
> Barbara Gordon can be Oracle AND Batgirl at the same time - see_ Batman Incorporated #8. _ 
> ...


Haha, these are awesome! Although I liked The Dark Knight Rises so I disagree there. 

Some other things:

1. Damian Wayne should stay dead. His story is over.

2. If Talia is resurrected, she should continue to be a global-empire badass. When she gets mad and puts on that skull mask, it's all kinds of awesome.

3. Tim Drake is irrelevant.

4. Unmasking Dick was a great move as he'll finally become his own man as a Jason Bourne-like super-spy.

5. I never liked Oracle and I don't want her to return in any capacity. 

6. I kind of like Joker's Daughter. She's just really really crazy and unlike most other female villains.

----------


## brenster21

i want to see jason todd in his own solo book, fighting crime as the red hood in DC's worst city, Hub city. (it is not like the question is using it)

----------


## dancj

> Dick is the only one that is absolutely essential to the mythos. Babs is a distant second, and the rest aren't even close.


I'd put Alfred and Gordon both way above Dick.

----------


## dancj

> Oracle is a better character then Batgirl for several reasons. 
> 1. She's a more unique character. Between Huntress, Batwoman and Spoiler how many Female Batman Analogues do we need? 
> 2. With the exception of Batgirl year 1 all the good Barbera Gordon stories are Oracle stories. 
> 3. Oracle plays a more important role in the DCU then Batgirl ever will. Putting her back in costume is almost a demotion.


Yup, yup and yup.

FWIW, Cass was the best Batgirl by a mile - but I wish they'd kept her limited to barely speaking.

----------


## phonogram12

Selina and Slam, Sr. make a way better couple than Bruce and Selina.

Babs' true love is Ted Kord, not Dick Grayson.

The League of Assassins gradually and quite obviously became a ripoff of the ninja clan The Hand Frank Miller created for Daredevil.

----------


## The Red Monk

> Selina and Slam, Sr. make a way better couple than Bruce and Selina.
> 
> Babs' true love is Ted Kord, not Dick Grayson.
> 
> *The League of Assassins gradually and quite obviously became a ripoff of the ninja clan The Hand Frank Miller created for Daredevil.*


Except that the League Of Assassins came first.

----------


## phonogram12

> Except that the League Of Assassins came first.


Yeah, but they weren't ninjas. That didn't come until _waaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy_ later (we're talking the earliest the '90s, here, years after The Hand were first introduced).

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Why do so many of you want Tim Drake to be gay? His character has never been gay, it doesn't make any sense... Snyder has already written a gay character, in the form of Cullen (and possibly Harper) Row. Homosexuality is not so common that there needs to be multiple relevant gay characters in the mythos...


I don't see the problem with increasing the number or _relevant_, gay Bat-characters from 0 to 1.

----------


## phonogram12

> I don't see the problem with increasing the number or _relevant_, gay Bat-characters from 0 to 1.


Well, there's Batwoman.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Well, there's Batwoman.


I haven't read her book in a while. Does she have anything to do with the rest of "family" outside of having _Bat_ in her name?

----------


## phonogram12

> I haven't read her book in a while. Does she have anything to do with the rest of "family" outside of having _Bat_ in her name?


Well, during the new 52 she's come across Batman and Batgirl on occasion, but I can see where you're coming from. I just don't see Tim as being gay, though, personally. Damien, maybe.

----------


## Diggy

> Well, during the new 52 she's come across Batman and Batgirl on occasion, but I can see where you're coming from. I just don't see Tim as being gay, though, personally. Damien, maybe.


Why would you want Damian to be gay either he's a little kid wtf

----------


## phonogram12

> Why would you want Damian to be gay either he's a little kid wtf


I honestly don't care either way, but I can see it. At least more than Tim.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> Homosexuality is around 5-10% of the population. Batwoman and Cullen Row are Bat-mythos characters that are both somewhat relevant right now (or will be in the near future) and they're both gay. There's no significant absence of gay characters and there's no need for more when that wouldn't even make sense with the % of homosexuals in the world. Out of 4 Robins I don't get why people on this forum think at least 1 of them should be gay when only 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 people are gay.


I couldn't care less about whether or not having a gay Robin would reflect the population. The Robins are also all white males (Damian being a slight exception) with black hair. That can't be an accurate reflection of the world's population. What about the blondes and the brunettes, and shouldn't at least one of them be black? It's all pretty irrelevant.

----------


## Diggy

> I couldn't care less about whether or not having a gay Robin would reflect the population. The Robins are also all white males (Damian being a slight exception) with black hair. That can't be an accurate reflection of the world's population. What about the blondes and the brunettes, and shouldn't at least one of them be black? It's all pretty irrelevant.


Not necessarily. Batman isn't exactly picking these kids out of a hat.

----------


## Kuwagaton

> Homosexuality is around 5-10% of the population. Batwoman and Cullen Row are Bat-mythos characters that are both somewhat relevant right now (or will be in the near future) and they're both gay. There's no significant absence of gay characters and there's no need for more when that wouldn't even make sense with the % of homosexuals in the world. Out of 4 Robins I don't get why people on this forum think at least 1 of them should be gay when only 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 people are gay.


The notion of "too many gay characters" is pretty funny. That's not really how population reflection works, and in any case I think the comics ask us to accept a lot more fantastic ideas than more than two homosexuals running in the same circle.

Damian is impossible to say, especially since he's dead. I doubt the comics would have explored it anyway but there's nothing impossible about having a gay 10 year old.

As far as Tim goes (I think he was the first mentioned in this thread), well... I think he's absolutely redundant. I think Dick and Damian have the whole "Robin" thing covered. He made sense in the '90s when Nightwing was doing his own thing but now all he really does is lead the Titans, and they're not very good at the moment. Make Tim gay, reveal his Saiyan heritage, give him a time traveling pet dog, whatever.

----------


## phonogram12

Well, it seems pretty clear that TPTB seem to think Dick's redundant considering they took him out of a costume altogether. That isn't a diss, btw. Dick's one of my favorite characters. It just seems as if no one has any idea of what to do with him. With Tim they at least have a pretty decent idea.

----------


## The Duke

Batman as a character has not been enjoyable for some years now. I remember they killed him off because everyone was tired of writing him and then he's just being written awfully similar to how he used to be.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Well, it seems pretty clear that TPTB seem to think Dick's redundant considering they took him out of a costume altogether. That isn't a diss, btw. Dick's one of my favorite characters. It just seems as if no one has any idea of what to do with him. With Tim they at least have a pretty decent idea.


Well, DiDio IS tptb so yeah.

----------


## phonogram12

> Well, DiDio IS tptb so yeah.


Exactly my point. That doesn't really reflect on the quality of either Dick or Tim, though.

----------


## t hedge coke

The idea that a new Robin somehow cancels out old Robins, or a new/alternate reality's Robin cancels out another reality's Robin is just ridiculous.

The idea that too many characters in the bat-universe waters down Batman is silly. Too many characters in one comic, one story, sure, maybe, but across all Batman or Batman-related stories?

"Robin needs to be a boy because little boys" trades on the idea that a new Robin/different Robin would somehow erase previous Robins from existence or memory and that's just silly. We've had kid Robins, adult Robins, boys, girls, clones, dinosaurs, robot Robins, former Robins and current Robins, and none of them have ever caused a single Dick Grayson story to evaporate out of existence.

Batman is best when he can smile and when he can appreciate others. When he has a range of emotions and acts as a force for positivity, not a whiny eidolon.

Anyone who thinks Barbara as Batgirl was a weak failure hasn't really read many Barbara as Batgirl stories. She was a genius politician with a motorcycle who ran alongside Batman and Robin with minimal training and no fortune to fund her.

Both Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli are great.

Oracle is best when she's still physically capable of kicking ass (see JLA: WW3 or the Red Robin arc where she took out R'as' assassins before her backup got there).

Denny O'Neil writes a better Batman in prose than in comics.

Birds of Prey was a great tv show and Harley was much better for not being incompetent-genius with a bunch of pratfalls.

----------


## dupersuper

> The Robins are also all white males (Damian being a slight exception) *with black hair*.


Jason being a slight exception...




> I remember they killed him off because everyone was tired of writing him


They what now?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'd put Alfred and Gordon both way above Dick.


I thought the term "Batfamily" generally encompasses the costumed sidekicks and other vigilantes? If we're going by that criteria, my original statement still stands.

Otherwise, yeah I totally agree, Alfred and Gordon > Dick in terms of importance.

----------


## Lorendiac

Controversial opinions? Okay, I'll dust off a few -- most of which I have expressed in the past on the old CBR forums. 

1. Barbara Gordon is my favorite *former* Batgirl, but she should never have reverted to that role all over again. 

2. Likewise, Dick Grayson is my favorite *former* Robin, but Tim Drake is his most worthy replacement, and should have stayed in that role instead of "moving on" to that silly "Red Robin" identity. 

3. Cassandra Cain should still be Batgirl today. (But she should also be well-written, and how often has *that* happened to her in the last eight years? So maybe she's better off staying out of sight for the time being until things have changed sufficiently at DC for her to get some respect under a new editorial regime.) 

4. Jim Starlin's "A Death in the Family" was one of the most clumsily-plotted "epic Batman story arcs" that the world has ever endured. (Which is really saying something!)

5. Despite the above, after Jason Todd was killed off in "A Death in the Family," he should have *stayed dead*, plain and simple. The only acceptable excuse for bringing him back would be if the Batman Canon got Totally Rebooted so that "A Death in the Family" had never even happened in the first place and Jason was "starting all over again!"  

6. Jeph Loeb is a pretty good writer of Big Batman Epics, except for his strange *inability* to satisfactorily "resolve" the mystery and suspense and various loose ends from the previous chapters when he is phoning in the dialogue for his "Grand Finale." Since he creates those mysteries and such himself, you'd think he'd know how to tie them up in a logical way at the end of the story, wouldn't you? (But you'd be wrong!  :Frown: )

7. Doug Moench got off to a superb start when he began his _first_ big run as a Batman writer in the mid-1980s. However, most of his second big run in the 1990s was _mediocre._ 

8. Finally getting his own solo "Nightwing" title in the mid-1990s was one of the *worst* things that ever happened to Dick Grayson. Chuck Dixon's treatment of him over the next few years just made him come across as "Batman Lite," and who needs that when the real Batman is available?  

9. I own all three seasons of "Batman Beyond" on DVD, but even when I'm watching several of them in the same evening, I've *never yet* been able to think of the star of the show as really being "Batman." As "Batman Beyond," yes. As "Terry McGinnis," yes. But to call him "Batman" with a straight face? No. In fact, there was one episode (I forget the title) in which it was announced that the GCPD now had an arrest order out for "Batman," and I swear to you that my first thought was: "Whoa! Commissioner Barbara Gordon is finally planning to arrest her old friend Bruce?" It was only about _ten seconds later_ that I realized that "Batman" in this context meant Terry and nobody else -- because that sure wasn't what it meant in my mind!

10. On the other hand, the show "Batman: The Brave and the Bold" should still be coming out regularly today with new episodes. (I want to see Music Meister make a big comeback! The poor guy only got one episode, even though it was one of the best things that show -- or any Batman animated series -- ever did!)

----------


## The Red Monk

As for my unpopular opinions:

1) Dick Grayson is the only decent Robin. Everyone else has barely interested me.

2) I don't give a shit about the Batgirls either way, but Barbara Gordon is the only one I've ever remotely cared about.

3) Cassandra Cain should not be part of the Bat-Family. She was shoe-horned in, and she sticks out like a sore thumb. To top that off, she's just not a very good character.

4) Tim Drake should have been "disappeared" in the New 52.

5) Jason Todd works best either dead, or as the "black sheep" anti-thesis to Dick, who abandoned Batman. Hell, he'd make the perfect arch-rival for Grayson that way.

6) Stephanie Brown was OK as Spoiler, terrible as Robin, and "meh" as Batgirl.

7) Catwoman should ditch the anti-hero shtick already, and go back to being an amoral thief who only looks out for herself. DC has been trying to make her a goody two-shoes for years, and nothing remotely interesting has come out of it.

8) Helena Bertinelli is annoying.

9) Batwoman should be to Batman what Spider-Woman is to Spider-Man - the only thing they share is the name.

10) Instead of costumed allies, how about we give Batman more civillian allies instead? He has far too many of the former, and not nearly enough of the latter.

----------


## The Duke

> They what now?


That's what I was told by a D.C. hireling I met in the U.S. back when D.C. was about to do final crisis. They said that he was carrying too much baggage, which just makes me laugh now with the top heavy new 52.

----------


## Magnum Valentino

> Batman is best when he can smile and when he can appreciate others. When he has a range of emotions and acts as a force for positivity, not a whiny eidolon.


Brave And The Bold #100 is a great comic because Batman's confined to a wheelchair and he gets Robin, Green Arrow, Green Lantern and Black Canary to help him out and is super appreciative of it. He even uses the word 'chum'. Whenever I think of modern Batman, it's that issue that makes me pine for the old days in comparison.

----------


## Shadowcat

I didn't care for Morrison's Batman. The man is a wonderfully creative writer, his Batman just didn't connect with me.

----------


## Shadowcat

> Common misconception, but untrue. It's actually more around 2%.


I'm going to need to see where your statistics come from. Most of the studies I've read place it around 5-10%.

----------


## Diggy

Red Hood is too good right now. Someone should write a major Batman storyline where he ventures back into a darker area. I dont want him as a complete villain but he should be closer to villain than hero.

----------


## Aioros22

More unpopular opinions:

Batman: Shaman is more entertaining than Batman: Year One. 

Batman: the Dark Knight Strikes Again is one of the best straight-face comments on modern popular culture. It`s among Miller`s best writting. It`s pure, it`s raw. 

Jason Todd is more interesting and entertaining to read than any other "Robin". Dick comes second and mostly because of his former TT run. 

New52 Jason is by far the most balanced write up on the character and a nice progression on Winnick`s/Nicieza and Morrison (Batman:INC) ideas.

I like the idea of Joker having a stronger connection to Jason beyond the crowbar and I like the idea of the black sheep being the prodigial son on certain matters.

----------


## chipsnopotatoes

> 7) Catwoman should ditch the anti-hero shtick already, and go back to being an amoral thief who only looks out for herself. DC has been trying to make her a goody two-shoes for years, and nothing remotely interesting has come out of it.
> .


I agree. Nu52 Cats like a little tabby cat right now. And this obsessed by Batman is stupid. Whoever thought up this direction for her deserves a big fat pink slip.

She can be an accidental good guy, but only if it aligns with her interest. Her first priority should be herself, not mole people from the Gotham underground (which I assume is the nu52's version of the East End).

Earth 2 Cats deserves her own book. Nu52 Cats, not so much.

----------


## Shadowcat

I enjoyed the 90's series Catwoman more than Brubaker's relaunch. I also enjoyed Dixon's run on Nightwing more than Dick's run as Batman.

----------


## HLOTS

Love All Star Batman and Robin. One of my favorite Batman book.

----------


## kidstandout

bat girl sucks










under gail simone

----------


## Hoosier X

> I didn't care for Morrison's Batman. The man is a wonderfully creative writer, his Batman just didn't connect with me.


I tried so hard to like Batman RIP because it started out with such good ideas. But it just got dumber and dumber as it went along.

----------


## oasis1313

> I tried so hard to like Batman RIP because it started out with such good ideas. But it just got dumber and dumber as it went along.


Yeah, it was like, "This guy never made a will?  He thought he'd live forever or something?"

----------


## t hedge coke

> Yeah, it was like, "This guy never made a will?  He thought he'd live forever or something?"


There was nothing about a will in RIP, nor a need for one.

----------


## John Venus

-Gotham Central was not fully enjoyable for me because Jim Gordon and Harvey Bullock weren't part of the cast.  Renee was the saving grace of the series but you can't do a GCPD story without the holy triumvirate of Jim Gordon, Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya.  

-The Bat books should just stop creating new characters and start on making existing ones work.  

-Cass Cain should still be a prominent member of the Bat Family with her own book.  

-Jason Todd should have stayed dead.  

-Making Batman the Bat God in the early 00's was a mistake.  

-Batman should go back to being a Detective.   

-Joker is overused and need to be killed off for a while.  

-The upcoming Gotham tv series looks horrible.

----------


## Batman Forever

> Schumachers Batman & Robin > The Dark Knight Rises


For sure. I will never get tired of watching batman and robin. Dark Knight Rises was exhausting enough for an entire lifetime. And doesn't feel all that much like a batman movie to me besides.




> Batman should be shown to have a better diet - he should be constantly devouring protein bars on rooftops and mixing up shakes from tap water in peoples kitchens.


YES! I am so sick of writers having him neglecting meals. Bruce would be completely anal about what he eats and when.





> The Batman editors and DC in general should follow the lead of whats happening outside the comics more closely. In terms of content, style, marketing, cross promotion, everything. Comics are far too insular


Disagree. I've seen nothing that indicates this helps comics. Neither sales wise nor imo content wise. If anything the comics need to try and do more to distinguish themselves as a unique medium and trailblaze new characters, new stories, new directions. Mine stuff to fuel the mythology of batman in pop culture, because comics aren't popular, and if they are only used to form an echo chamber with the bat-media that actually is popular, well then they've lost what makes them important.

Plus, the idea of executives deciding what comic creators used to decide makes me queasy.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Jason Todd's return was one of the best things to ever happen in Batman mythos

Batman Forever is better than any Nolan film

----------


## Sunbird

To quote Yahtzee from Zero Punctuation, Batman is always the least interesting thing in everything he's in.
Post Lego Movie I'm no longer sure this is true.

----------


## Jabare

-Jason Todd was far better under Winicks hand. Current Jason Todd is not unique anymore just another former Robin.

-DC has continually neutered Dick Grayson. Only 5 writers have treated him like an A-list character, but DC continually undermines him. The current version is just an empty shell without his past accolades or connections.

-Winick's run on Batwing was by far the best.

-Sometimes DC overcompensates for BAtman at the expense of several other characters and it gets hold especially when the same old troupes are rehashed.

-Batman and Catwoman don't belong together, and it's pretty obvious they won't ever truly end up together.

-Stephanie Brown was the best Batgirl in the comics (other media we've only had 1 so...)

----------


## byrd156

> -Jason Todd was far better under Winicks hand. Current Jason Todd is not unique anymore just another former Robin.
> 
> -DC has continually neutered Dick Grayson. Only 5 writers have treated him like an A-list character, but DC continually undermines him. The current version is just an empty shell without his past accolades or connections.
> 
> -Winick's run on Batwing was by far the best.
> 
> -Sometimes DC overcompensates for BAtman at the expense of several other characters and it gets hold especially when the same old troupes are rehashed.
> 
> -Batman and Catwoman don't belong together, and it's pretty obvious they won't ever truly end up together.
> ...


The whole Dick Grayson thing is more of a fact than an opinion.

----------


## Cape and Cowl

> 3) Cassandra Cain should not be part of the Bat-Family. She was shoe-horned in, and she sticks out like a sore thumb. To top that off, she's just not a very good character.


Agreed.  She's one of the few DC characters I try to forget.

----------


## jgprime

Tim Drake has always been the best Robin.

Jason Todd is better off dead.

Dick should have remained as Batman, or at least as the Gotham Batman. His ascendance to the cowl was _perfect_.

Barbara should remain as Oracle.

Bruce should only love one woman and that woman should be Selina. I don't understand how could he ever love someone as Talia Al Ghul.

----------


## t hedge coke

The whole "Bruce just dates these women, he never *means it* or sleeps with them" thing that comes up occasionally is incredibly shady. Way to manipulate and use a bunch of people as props, Bruce! Way heroic.

----------


## phonogram12

> The whole "Bruce just dates these women, he never *means it* or sleeps with them" thing that comes up occasionally is incredibly shady. Way to manipulate and use a bunch of people as props, Bruce! Way heroic.


Yeah, I've always thought that was pretty bad, IMHO.

----------


## Lorendiac

> The whole "Bruce just dates these women, he never *means it* or sleeps with them" thing that comes up occasionally is incredibly shady. Way to manipulate and use a bunch of people as props, Bruce! Way heroic.


I think "he goes on dates with beautiful society girls of Gotham and visiting celebrities, sometimes, but he resists temptation and _never_ sleeps with them" *is*, in fact, closer to heroic than the following _alternative interpretation_ of Bruce Wayne's social life as a "zillionaire playboy" would be. "Bruce frequently has one-night stands with beautiful women who don't realize they don't have a prayer of luring him into a long-term romantic relationship -- he's just using them as a) props for his public image, and b) convenient ways to get temporary sexual gratification, as if they were blow-up dolls without feelings of their own."

In other words: Simply taking a woman out to dinner, and then returning her safely to her own apartment where she will sleep alone while Bruce is running around the dark streets of Gotham as "Batman" for the next several hours, strikes me as _far less_ reprehensible than luring her into bed in order to keep his frivolous reputation alive, and *then* basically saying to her, after it's over and she wants to schedule another rendezvous: "Yeah, yeah, it was kind of  nice -- but I have no idea when we'll do it again. Don't call me; I'll call you. (Maybe.)"

----------


## Jabare

> The whole "Bruce just dates these women, he never *means it* or sleeps with them" thing that comes up occasionally is incredibly shady. Way to manipulate and use a bunch of people as props, Bruce! Way heroic.


Onl works in the comics.

You see Nolan's Batman didn't have that problem.  If you start applying real world logic than of course Bruce sleeps with some of them. The number he goes around with from time to time. People will talk one way or another.  I think adopting all those young boys as a single bachelor with his projected lifestyle would raise a few more eyebrows though. At leas tNew 52 there were years between each robin.

----------


## t hedge coke

> Onl works in the comics.
> 
> You see Nolan's Batman didn't have that problem.  If you start applying real world logic than of course Bruce sleeps with some of them. The number he goes around with from time to time. People will talk one way or another.  I think adopting all those young boys as a single bachelor with his projected lifestyle would raise a few more eyebrows though. At leas tNew 52 there were years between each robin.


It was Rucka who did the "everybody knows (that is, says behind his back) that Bruce is gay" thing, right? That the rumor mill just pinned him as a closet case.

But, in any case, dating people under false pretenses, with no interest in them, in them romantically or socially, but as props, is not what I'd think of as heroic or decent. That's whether it's to protect his superheroing (which many manage without that tactic) or bearding for something else. It's taking advantage of people, people who likely do mean it, who are earnestly dating him, who think he's being honest with them and have no good reason to doubt it.

And, casual relationships don't have to mean that after sex once he'll never ever contact them again. That, too, implies they're just props. People maintain contact with non-colleagues they don't sleep with ever, quite often, but it's also entirely possible to maintain an incredibly light relationship with someone you have slept with or dated once or twice. Bruce has old friends. The idea that the women he's casually dated could never be amongst those old friends is... sad, at the least.

(Which puts me in mind of Year One, again, and how it plays Bruce's, Selina's, and Jim's relationships to sex, money, family, and dating against each other so well.)

----------


## Red obin

Steph Brown is a lot more interesting of a batgirl then Barbara.

----------


## Korath

Tim's best Red Robin suit is from the New 52, the Rebirth one is just ugly.

----------


## kaimaciel

Scott Lobdell has done more for Jason Todd than anyone since the New 52. Who ever thought the idea of turning Jason into a tentacle monster who ate people was either dumb or high.

DC should stop shoving Damian Wayne down my throat. He's the most overrated, overpowered, annoying character written in the last 8 years.

----------


## Caivu

Holy thread necro, Batman.

Seriously, two-and-a-half years. WTF, why?

----------


## Batgirll

I think Barbara is the best character in the Batfamily, because she had 3 versions: Barbara, Batgirl and Oracle, and she is great in all them.
I don´t understand all this love for Dick Grayson, I think he had potencial, but DC don´t use this, To me he needs one city, job and charaacter regulares in his comics, to he have one strong name.
Tim Drake is the best Robin
Stephanie is better as Spoiler.
The onlys character really importants in the Bat family are: Dick, Tim, Jason e Babs. Maybe Cass too.

----------


## zebracross

Jason, Damian and Talia should stay dead. Batman/Bruce has had too many sidekicks and more interesting lovers-villains.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph Brown is a lot more interesting of a batgirl then Barbara.


Wait, how is that controversial? Or just to DC editorial?  :Wink:

----------


## Atlanta96

Bruce should never have more than 10 Bat-Family members. Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Babs, Steph, Cass, Kate, Selina, and Luke are all he needs at the moment. That's not to say temporary allies like Clayface or Gotham Girl who will almost certainly die or go evil can't be a thing, or that characters like Leslie Thompkins or even Alfred and Gordon can't assist the family. But there comes a point when the Family is so bloated that almost no one has any real importance, almost anyone could die and it would hardly affect a thing.

So yeah, in the future I think writers should mutually agree on a size limit to long term vigilantes in the Bat-books. Cause they're more of a Bat-Army at this point. And not in a good way.

----------


## yash

Barbra gordon sucks as batgirl 
Dick/babs sucks barbra should be as away from a nightwing book as possible 
Nightwing should be the least traditional street superhero story it should not be boxed in with traditional elements like home city and its corruption rather his stories should be allowed to go anywhere and as crazy as it gets

----------


## Frontier

Joker should have normal speech bubbles.

----------


## Aahz

> Who ever thought the idea of turning Jason into a tentacle monster who ate people was either dumb or high.


And it is imo still not the worst thing they did with him.

- I prefer Bruce Silver/Bronze Age Orgin over the newer version

- The Lego DC Movie series is the best current DC Movie series

- Jason belongs into the Age Group of Tim, Stephs and Cass generation, not in Dicks and Barbaras

- Lance Bruner (Bruce second ward) and Mary Wills (aka Roberta the Girl Wonder) should be aknowledged in canon

----------


## Pohzee

A majority of the "bat-family" takes away more from the Batman mythos than they add to it.

----------


## Caivu

> A majority of the "bat-family" takes away more from the Batman mythos than they add to it.


In what ways?

(And I know I'm a hypocrite here but holy shit why are people still bumping a dead thread)

----------


## millernumber1

> Joker should have normal speech bubbles.


I'm with you! Also, Joker should only appear once every five years.  :Smile:

----------


## Pohzee

> In what ways?
> 
> (And I know I'm a hypocrite here but holy shit why are people still bumping a dead thread)


Having a few sidekicks and partners is one thing, but having a small army of brightly colored sidekicks really kills the mystique that makes Batman so popular in the first place and a couple of them spoil the noir, grounded take on Batman that is incredibly popular.

And it's been bumped, it's fair game  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

> Having a few sidekicks and partners is one thing, but having a small army of brightly colored sidekicks really kills the mystique that makes Batman so popular in the first place and a couple of them spoil the noir, grounded take on Batman that is incredibly popular.


I don't see how.

----------


## Pohzee

> I don't see how.


Well it is a controversial opinions thread, but I don't think that two ninjas trained from childhood to be master assassains, four Robins, three Batgirls, ten teenage sidekicks, and a Batcousin helps the mysterious solo vigilante vibe that makes stories like the Long Halloween and Year One provide. On the flipside, I don't really see or appreciate what some of these characters bring to the table.

----------


## Agent Z

Ah yes the popular "grounded" take on Batman that involves him taking on crocodile men that live in the sewers, eco terrorists that control plants, shape shifting mud monsters and comedians with bad skin conditions. 

Any way for my opinion, Batman's Rogues Gallery, like many superhero rogues galleries, feed into many toxic and outdated stereotypes. Particularly about the mentally ill.

----------


## Caivu

> Well it is a controversial opinions thread, but I don't think that two ninjas trained from childhood to be master assassains, four Robins, three Batgirls, ten teenage sidekicks, and a Batcousin helps the mysterious solo vigilante vibe that makes stories like the Long Halloween and Year One provide.


I get all that, but _why_ do they lessen the mysteriousness? You're just saying _that_ they do, not why they do.




> On the flipside, I don't really see or appreciate what some of these characters bring to the table.


Sorry to hear that. Your loss.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Ah yes the popular "grounded" take on Batman that involves him taking on crocodile men that live in the sewers, eco terrorists that control plants, shape shifting mud monsters and comedians with bad skin conditions. 
> 
> Any way for my opinion, Batman's Rogues Gallery, like many superhero rogues galleries, feed into many toxic and outdated stereotypes. Particularly about the mentally ill.


You mean like, having half your face burned off with acid will kick your split-personality disorder into top gear? Or that cartoonishly over the top and unrealistic clown themed super villains, who use razor sharp playing cards and parade floats as weapons of mass destruction, make real life insane people look bad?

I think you're over-thinking this. The Batman villains are, for the most part, not meant to reflect reality. I doubt many people look at Arnold Wesker or Edward Nygma and think "This is what mentally ill people are like". No more than they view Selina Kyle as a representation of real life burglars.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it is a controversial opinions thread, but I don't think that two ninjas trained from childhood to be master assassains, four Robins, three Batgirls, ten teenage sidekicks, and a Batcousin helps the mysterious solo vigilante vibe that makes stories like the Long Halloween and Year One provide. On the flipside, I don't really see or appreciate what some of these characters bring to the table.


Fundamentally, the Batfamily provides three vital things to the Batman story.

1) They show that Batman is not the only person in Gotham who wants to make the city better.  Batman becomes not merely a figure of fear, separated by a fine line from his villains, but a figure of inspiration.

2) They extend his mission, but often in ways that allow readers to become more invested in the Batman world (from the famous inclusion of Robin so young readers would be more invested in a younger character, to the way many Batfamily members can have happier relationships than Bruce, etc). They are the grin in the dark, allowing contrast, diversity, and variety to the eternal struggle for justice in a world of evil.

3) Bruce Wayne became Batman because his family was ripped from him. The Batfamily allows him, slowly and imperfectly, to heal by allowing him to prevent what happened to him from happening to his new family.

----------


## godisawesome

Stephanie Brown Batgirl could almost certainly kick (Pre-Rebirth) Burnside Babs Batgirl's butt in just about every category. And in a manner that would embarrass the Doc Martin wearing, not body armor equipped, not-actually-Oracle-in-her-past and lets-get-blackout-drunk-cause-lulz downgrade of Babs. Simone's Batgrilcould probably handle StephBats at least decently, but not the retread-of-Steph's-formula-but-hipster package.

Also, Batflekc had better have Batfamily in so next film or risk being a generic Batman movie.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Stephanie Brown Batgirl could almost certainly kick (Pre-Rebirth) Burnside Babs Batgirl's butt in just about every category. And in a manner that would embarrass the Doc Martin wearing, not body armor equipped, not-actually-Oracle-in-her-past and lets-get-blackout-drunk-cause-lulz downgrade of Babs. Simone's Batgrilcould probably handle StephBats at least decently, but not the retread-of-Steph's-formula-but-hipster package.
> 
> Also, Batflekc had better have Batfamily in so next film or risk being a generic Batman movie.


All I want for Christmas is this post  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie Brown Batgirl could almost certainly kick (Pre-Rebirth) Burnside Babs Batgirl's butt in just about every category. And in a manner that would embarrass the Doc Martin wearing, not body armor equipped, not-actually-Oracle-in-her-past and lets-get-blackout-drunk-cause-lulz downgrade of Babs. Simone's Batgrilcould probably handle StephBats at least decently, but not the retread-of-Steph's-formula-but-hipster package.
> 
> Also, Batflekc had better have Batfamily in so next film or risk being a generic Batman movie.


So much this post.

----------


## Frontier

I want a live-action Batman movie that's true to the character and mythos, while still being more family-friendly then the DCEU or Nolan Batman, without being as necessarily campy as _Batman and Robin_/_Batman '66_.

Also, I'd watch a CW Batman show  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Aioros22

- The family makes Batman interesting in the long haul. 

- The Retun of Jason Todd was wanting and one of the best things DC ever did. 

- Maybe an army of allies dismifies Batman`s aura a bit but the days of him as an urban legend are long gone. They`ve been gone ever since he became a member of oficial teams . It`s time to #dealwithit. 

- Joker works the best the least he apears. 

- Winnick`s Jason was great. Current Jason is better in the long haul. 

- Jason was a more interesting Robin than Dick or Tim. 

- Steph was more interesting than Barbara. 

- Naked Bane is the best thing that has happened to the character since Secret Six.

----------


## Frontier

I think Joker needs to be toned down a little in the comics. 

I also miss him being a recurring villain.

----------


## byrd156

> I want a live-action Batman movie that's true to the character and mythos, while still being more family-friendly then the DCEU or Nolan Batman, without being as necessarily campy as _Batman and Robin_/_Batman '66_.
> 
> Also, I'd watch a CW Batman show .


That's what I want for Christmas, I want a very true to the character live-action series. 

I wouldn't want Batman on the CW but I would take whatever we get.

----------


## Aioros22

> And it is imo still not the worst thing they did with him


No, c`mon it is. 

A few of the takes that were bad could be easily reversed or tampered. A porn hentai monster is something you just need to pretend it never happened and burned it off your mind.

----------


## Godlike13

They shouldn't have brought Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain back. They brought them back just to bring them back, but they have done nothing and serve no actual purpose. They just further clutter an already cluttered Bat family, and quite frankly they just haven't been very good. Stephanie has become depressing, angsty, and super smart, losing her former appeal, and Cass is as boring as ever.

----------


## Atlanta96

> All I want for Christmas is this post


I wouldn't care for a more family friendly Batman film, the Nolan films were family friendly enough. But one with a proper family of heroes is almost necessary to make it stand out from the other films, especially the Nolan films which seemed embarrassed by Batman's supporting cast.

I hope Robin and Nightwing are in it, and while I'm not a fan of overcrowding it would be nice to see one of the Batgirls too. I think it would be a great opportunity to introduce these heroes and develop them over time into new roles and identities. Cause by now "Batman vs the villain, Catwoman may show up" is pretty overdone.

----------


## Aahz

> No, c`mon it is. 
> 
> A few of the takes that were bad could be easily reversed or tampered. A porn hentai monster is something you just need to pretend it never happened and burned it off your mind.


I take the tentakle monster over, everything post Countdown. And seriously the tentakle monster is not worse than some of the stuff Bruce was transformed in during the silver age.

----------


## oasis1313

> They shouldn't have brought Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain back. They brought them back just to bring them back, but they have done nothing and serve no actual purpose. They just further clutter an already cluttered Bat family, and quite frankly they just haven't been very good. Stephanie has become depressing, angsty, and super smart, losing her former appeal, and Cass is as boring as ever.


They could be written better than they are.  It's up to their fans to communicate with DC and make their wishes known.

----------


## t hedge coke

> They could be written better than they are.  It's up to their fans to communicate with DC and make their wishes known.


This is where it becomes tricky, though, because _fans of what?_ Godlike13 isn't a fan of Cass. So, should DC listen to them or someone who is? Or, neither, and just go with what seems like a good pitch down the line?

Honestly, I've been enjoying Cass and Steph in Detective, and I enjoyed their pseudo-resurrection and goodbye during Convergence, too.

DC can't please everyone all the time.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> This is where it becomes tricky, though, because _fans of what?_ Godlike13 isn't a fan of Cass. So, should DC listen to them or someone who is? Or, neither, and just go with what seems like a good pitch down the line?
> 
> Honestly, I've been enjoying Cass and Steph in Detective, and I enjoyed their pseudo-resurrection and goodbye during Convergence, too.
> 
> DC can't please everyone all the time.


I'm a fan of Steph or atleast was when she was Batgirl. The current version bears no resemblance to that character and frankly just exists for the sake of existing and Cass similarly shows up for Kung Fu poses. That and hugging Harper seems to be their primary aim in life.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm a fan of Steph or atleast was when she was Batgirl. The current version bears no resemblance to that character and frankly just exists for the sake of existing and Cass similarly shows up for Kung Fu poses. That and hugging Harper seems to be their primary aim in life.


I think the issue with those 2 is that they've been gone so long that they needed a better chance to be reestablished than a team book with a million characters. Yeah there was the Eternals but those weren't very good. Steph's arc in Tec wouldn't be out of place for her character, but we haven't seen enough of her being good old Steph for it to feel satisfying. I'm not super familiar with Cass and her arc hasn't happened yet so I'll hold off on her.

So yeah, I think these characters still have a role to fill in the books. Not as much as they would if they weren't crowded with NOBODIES, but still. DC just doesn't understand that even when a character has been around a while, they still need a lot of care and attention to stay relevant. You can't just drop them in a single book with a decent writer and expect them to fulfill their potential, or for their fans to be satisfied. This is why I keep harping on the bloated Bat-Family, it hurts everyone but it hurts the struggling characters the most.

----------


## t hedge coke

> I'm a fan of Steph or atleast was when she was Batgirl. The current version bears no resemblance to that character and frankly just exists for the sake of existing and Cass similarly shows up for Kung Fu poses. That and hugging Harper seems to be their primary aim in life.


Hey! Steph hugged Batman, too.  :Smile:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I think the issue with those 2 is that they've been gone so long that they needed a better chance to be reestablished than a team book with a million characters. Yeah there was the Eternals but those weren't very good. Steph's arc in Tec wouldn't be out of place for her character, but we haven't seen enough of her being good old Steph for it to feel satisfying. I'm not super familiar with Cass and her arc hasn't happened yet so I'll hold off on her.
> 
> So yeah, I think these characters still have a role to fill in the books. Not as much as they would if they weren't crowded with NOBODIES, but still. DC just doesn't understand that even when a character has been around a while, they still need a lot of care and attention to stay relevant. You can't just drop them in a single book with a decent writer and expect them to fulfill their potential, or for their fans to be satisfied. This is why I keep harping on the bloated Bat-Family, it hurts everyone but it hurts the struggling characters the most.


Isn't Steph leaving? and it's not just about the number of characters involved. It's about having an arc, Steph's arcs are just being repeated, same goes for Cass. We've already seen a story where Shiva was revealed to be Cassandra's mother so why is it a BOMBSHELL to be getting the same story all over again? why not just reintroduce  their previous lives and essentially continue where they left off? it's what DC is doing with Superman and largely the same thing they're doing with Deathstroke. All they've done with Cass and Steph is use the same pool of storylines and reproduce them and so far each new version is inferior to what came before.

----------


## millernumber1

> Isn't Steph leaving? and it's not just about the number of characters involved. It's about having an arc, Steph's arcs are just being repeated, same goes for Cass. We've already seen a story where Shiva was revealed to be Cassandra's mother so why is it a BOMBSHELL to be getting the same story all over again? why not just reintroduce  their previous lives and essentially continue where they left off? it's what DC is doing with Superman and largely the same thing they're doing with Deathstroke. All they've done with Cass and Steph is use the same pool of storylines and reproduce them and so far each new version is inferior to what came before.


Steph seems to be leaving the team, at least until #950, but Tynion has said he has big plans for her, so hopefully she'll be a guest like Harper is - and a regular one.

Oooh, since this is controversial opinions thread:

I love Batman Eternal. I like Batman and Robin Eternal. I like Harper (with a few caveats for dumb stuff like having her lecture Steph on running away).

----------


## Caivu

> We've already seen a story where Shiva was revealed to be Cassandra's mother so why is it a BOMBSHELL to be getting the same story all over again?


Because maybe it might actually be a bombshell? We don't actually _know_ if Shiva is still Cass's mom, after all, we just assume so because that's how it was before. And with as coy as DC is being with it, it does make me wonder if she's actually not. Or at least, Shiva herself doesn't know she is and someone _else_ thinks she's Cass's mom.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Isn't Steph leaving? and it's not just about the number of characters involved. It's about having an arc, Steph's arcs are just being repeated, same goes for Cass. We've already seen a story where Shiva was revealed to be Cassandra's mother so why is it a BOMBSHELL to be getting the same story all over again? why not just reintroduce  their previous lives and essentially continue where they left off? it's what DC is doing with Superman and largely the same thing they're doing with Deathstroke. All they've done with Cass and Steph is use the same pool of storylines and reproduce them and so far each new version is inferior to what came before.


I dunno, it's still too soon to tell whether or not they're going to repeat the same old crap with them. I'm still more concerned about panel time and D.C. placing actual value in their characters. But we all know what their priorities are at the moment so, I won't get my hopes up yet.

----------


## G-Potion

> - The family makes Batman interesting in the long haul. 
> 
> - The Retun of Jason Todd was wanting and one of the best things DC ever did. 
> 
> - Maybe an army of allies dismifies Batman`s aura a bit but the days of him as an urban legend are long gone. They`ve been gone ever since he became a member of oficial teams . It`s time to #dealwithit. 
> 
> - Joker works the best the least he apears. 
> 
> - Winnick`s Jason was great. Current Jason is better in the long haul. 
> ...


Blessed. 

Re-reading UTH I'm still in love with Winnick's Jason just as much, but wouldn't trade it for N52 Jason's journey to maturity. He's gained a lot as a character.

----------


## Godlike13

Ehh, i don't know about that. Im not a fan of RHatO, though i respect that it has its fans. Still I feel like Jason is arguably the most irrelevant he's even been these days. Marooned on a book that is kind of ignored, on a journey that makes him honestly kind of boring and pointless. Like, im sorry, but whats the point of a mature and stable Red Hood? Where's the fun there? I liked Red Hood's issues. To me its what made him complex and interesting. I liked that he was antagonistic and defiant, its what made him different, and when he popped up in a story he had a presence you couldn't ignore. Its like giving us a humble and respectful Damian Wayne, or a Bruce Wayne thats content. No thank you.

----------


## Fergus

Tim Drake is the most interesting member of the bat family and the least redundant. Not at all superfluous or easily replaceable. He does not at all deserve to be killed off/retired since he's still very relevant.

Tim is not a useless regressed Not-Robin whose current continued existence is only thanks to nostalgia.

----------


## Godlike13

Uh, oh. Someone has hacked Fergus' account.

----------


## Fergus

> They could be written better than they are.  It's up to their fans to communicate with DC and make their wishes known.


The fans should never be allowed to communicate anything. Talk about the inmates running the asylum! Here's an idea, why don't we just let creators create. If you like it read it if you don't, go read something else. Fans must never be allowed to dictate the direction of stories/characters especially the vocal minority.

----------


## Fergus

> Uh, oh. Someone has hacked Fergus' account.


Dastardly fiends  :Mad:

----------


## Agent Z

> Ehh, i don't know about that. Im not a fan of RHatO, though i respect that it has its fans. Still I feel like Jason is arguably the most irrelevant he's even been these days. Marooned on a book that is kind of ignored, on a journey that makes him honestly kind of boring and pointless. Like, im sorry, but whats the point of a mature and stable Red Hood? Where's the fun there? I liked Red Hood's issues. To me its what made him complex and interesting. I liked that he was antagonistic and defiant, its what made him different, and when he popped up in a story he had a presence you couldn't ignore. Its like giving us a humble and respectful Damian Wayne, or a Bruce Wayne thats content. No thank you.


Aren't you the one always talking about how character stagnation is a bad thing?

----------


## G-Potion

> Ehh, i don't know about that. Im not a fan of RHatO, though i respect that it has its fans. Still I feel like Jason is arguably the most irrelevant he's even been these days. Marooned on a book that is kind of ignored, on a journey that makes him honestly kind of boring and pointless. Like, im sorry, but whats the point of a mature and stable Red Hood? Where's the fun there? I liked Red Hood's issues. To me its what made him complex and interesting. I liked that he was antagonistic and defiant, its what made him different, and when he popped up in a story he had a presence you couldn't ignore. Its like giving us a humble and respectful Damian Wayne, or a Bruce Wayne thats content. No thank you.


I get the appeal of Winnick Jason, but honestly it would get old fast if it stays that way. Saying Jason is like a humble Damian Wayne or a content Bruce Wayne is a gross dismissal of his character development that has been happening non-stop since the N52. But this is a conversation that happened before and went nowhere, and I don't care to repeat it here. I'll say only this, Rebirth Jason continues to be a complex character, with his viewpoint frequently being challenged by almost everybody in his book and it's fascinating to see where he will go from here.

----------


## Godlike13

Most things get old after a while. Im not saying he needed to stay that exact way, or should have, or that they shouldn't have him do different things. Doing the same things does get boring after a while, but in reforming him and having him get over his issues, or "mature", he kind of loses his point and purpose (which has been going on, and under the same creator, for how long now?). Sure now they get to have him work next to Batman and friends, but he fades into the background working next to Batman and friends.

----------


## Fergus

While I think RHATO isn't as bad as some say I prefer a darker more villainous Jason to the watered down version. He was more interesting and compelling.

----------


## Aahz

> . Sure now they get to have him work next to Batman and friends, but he fades into the background working next to Batman and friends.


But thats imo mostly a problem with the Batman writers, who don't really do something with him that let him stand out. 

Jason is in his own boook (at leat pre rebirth) still quite willing to cross lines the other wouldn't, look for example what he did with the Iron Rule in the final issue of RH/A.

But in the cross overs he suddely plays nice, and the other charcters are suddenly doing the more drastic things (like Dick using his Hypnos on Sculptor in B&RE and Damian blowing up the prison or elctrocuting Robo-Bat in Robin War).

----------


## Mr. Mastermind

> Scott Lobdell has done more for Jason Todd than anyone since the New 52. Who ever thought the idea of turning Jason into a tentacle monster who ate people was either dumb or high.


True but he hasn't got much competition. How many people have written Jason in a major capacity since the New 52?




> DC should stop shoving Damian Wayne down my throat. He's the most overrated, overpowered, annoying character written in the last 8 years.


How is Damian "overpowered" when compared to the other Robins? Dick was just a kid in the circus who was able to beat up fully grown men on a regular basis at the age of 12. The whole concept of Robin requires a kid who can somehow beat up adults and Damian isn't any different. At least he has the backstory of being trained by the League as an explanation for his skills.

----------


## dietrich

> True but he hasn't got much competition. How many people have written Jason in a major capacity since the New 52?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				How is Damian "overpowered" when compared to the other Robins? Dick was just a kid in the circus who was able to beat up fully grown men on a regular basis at the age of 12. The whole concept of Robin requires a kid who can somehow beat up adults and Damian isn't any different. At least he has the backstory of being trained by the League as an explanation for his skills.


This right here. Seems people only have a problem with kids taking on grown men when that kid happens to be Damian. That's what Robins do. It's what they've always done and he's the only one with a reasonable explanation for why he's able to do so.

----------


## Godlike13

Damian gets as good as he gives. While sometimes writers can get carried away, he isn't infallible by any means. Many stories have him in over his head and out powered. In fact im not sure any Robin has been brutalized as much as Damian has.

----------


## byrd156

Jason works better as a villain or in the ground than as an anti-hero.

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce should never have more than 10 Bat-Family members. Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Babs, Steph, Cass, Kate, Selina, and Luke are all he needs at the moment.


I would probaly go for a slightly diffrent cast but appart from it I agree.

----------


## Pohzee

I'd more controversially prefer that was cut down to like 5. 10 is still a bloated number. I don't see characters like Luke as important members of the Bat-Family, and I don't think of Selina as a Bat-Family member. Three Robins (with one in the ground) and two Batgirls, or just a Robin and a Batgirl.

I guess that makes another controversial opinion of mine that the New52's truncation of the Bat-Family was a good thing and also not far enough.

----------


## Aioros22

> While I think RHATO isn't as bad as some say I prefer a darker more villainous Jason to the watered down version. He was more interesting and compelling.


Here`s the thing. Current Jason _is_ dark. 

What you actually want is a _villanous_ Jason alright. They`re not exclusively the same thing. It`s not really about writers, they`re simply not giving you the kind of dark_ you_ would like. 

As to whoever talked about stagnation, that`s exactly what it was Pre-Flashpoint. Un-poignant villany cliché. Even Winnick actually moved past that when he last wrote him, if you notice.

----------


## Aioros22

> Most things get old after a while. Im not saying he needed to stay that exact way, or should have, or that they shouldn't have him do different things. Doing the same things does get boring after a while, but in reforming him and having him get over his issues, or "mature", he kind of loses his point and purpose (which has been going on, and under the same creator, for how long now?). Sure now they get to have him work next to Batman and friends, but he fades into the background working next to Batman and friends.


If you read RATHO, you know Jason hasn`t gone over all his issues. No character does and keeps being interesting, Batman included. What they`ve been doing is something else, is making him deal with them in a mature way (or more than he did before) and learn from it. 

To be more precise, the first RATHO was how he dealt past his UTRH drama. RHAA was about how he tries to be what Roy looked as him as. Current Jason is trying to start on a clean state but this time he`s been placed as the Batman of his surrogate family and for the first time he has to act like the father instead of the son asnwering things back.

----------


## Fergus

Oops  double post

----------


## Fergus

> Here`s the thing. Current Jason _is_ dark. 
> 
> What you actually want is a _villanous_ Jason alright. They`re not exclusively the same thing. It`s not really about writers, they`re simply not giving you the kind of dark_ you_ would like. 
> 
> As to whoever talked about stagnation, that`s exactly what it was Pre-Flashpoint. Un-poignant villany cliché. Even Winnick actually moved past that when he last wrote him, if you notice.


Pretty sure my original post said villainous and no I don't find him particularly dark at the moment not with people like Bruce and Damian running around upping the Dark ante. I would prefer his darkness knocked up a notch.

----------


## Aioros22

. Dick Grayson`s best stint as a character was in Teen Titans heydays, his Nigthwing included. He kind of gets boring everywhere else, save some especific runs here and there like Grayson. 

. I actually enjoyed Azz`s run on Luke and I think it works best in a sort of DKR setting. I feel he`s meh everywhere else. 

. 90`s Azrael was the shit.

----------


## Aioros22

> Pretty sure my original post said villainous and no I don't find him particularly dark at the moment not with people like Bruce and Damian running around upping the Dark ante. I would prefer his darkness knocked up a notch.


It said villanous and it also said dark and it`s not automatically the same. Just pointing it out. 

I get you don`t find him particularly dark, that`s fine. I don`t find Damian dark _one bit_. He`s an entitled primadona was who raised to be so. Batman does, especially under two writers and I chose to appreciate how both he and Jason deal with their themes.

----------


## Frontier

> . 90`s Azrael was the shit.


As in it was really good, or do you mean that literally  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Fergus

> It said villanous and it also said dark and it`s not automatically the same. Just pointing it out. 
> 
> I get you don`t find him particularly dark, that`s fine. I don`t find Damian dark _one bit_. He`s an entitled primadona was who raised to be so. Batman does, especially under two writers and I chose to appreciate how both he and Jason deal with their themes.


Well it all personal opinions and what not lets agree to disagree.

----------


## Aioros22

> As in it was really good, or do you mean that literally ?


Oh, the good kind of shit  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Well it all personal opinions and what not lets agree to disagree.


Absolutely, hats off.

----------


## Aahz

> I'd more controversially prefer that was cut down to like 5. 10 is still a bloated number.


You don't have to have all 10 allways arround at the same time, and you can also devide between members that are closer connected to Bruce (Batgirl, Nightwing, Robin) and some that are not so close (Red Hood, Catwoman, Spoiler, Huntress).




> I don't see characters like Luke as important members of the Bat-Family, and I don't think of Selina as a Bat-Family member.


I also don't think Luke is important (and I'm not a fan of having a guy in a power suit around), but Selina is imo an important character in the franchise.

Maybe Batfamily is here the wrong word here, but I think that the number of charcters the Batfranchise can support is at best in the order of 10, and that they shouldn't add more if it isn't a really unique and fresh character.

----------


## Celgress

Bruce doesn't need a biological son.

----------


## Fergus

> Bruce doesn't need a biological son.


Of course he does. Bout time he endangered his own kid instead of other peoples.

----------


## Korath

I don't like the usual Batman costume that Damian has in flash-forward. I mean, the guy is a trained assassin from birth, how could he reduce so much his field of vision with his _col roulé_ of death ? Plus, it's ugly...

And while we are talking about costumes... I would like to see the remnants of the Bat-bunny-robot armour of James Gordon in the Batcave. He liked this robotic partner  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> I don't like the usual Batman costume that Damian has in flash-forward. I mean, the guy is a trained assassin from birth, how could he reduce so much his field of vision with his _col roulé_ of death ? Plus, it's ugly...
> 			
> 		
> 
> And while we are talking about costumes... I would like to see the remnants of the Bat-bunny-robot armour of James Gordon in the Batcave. He liked this robotic partner


 Maybe it's an homage to Dick's 1st nightwing costume? Anyway as he demonstrated when Dick had similar concerns he can hear opponents breathe in the dark thanks to the ninja training. So a high collar isn't a problem. I like the costume. If a high collar is good enough for Dick Grayson it's good enough for Damian Wayne .

----------


## Frontier

> And while we are talking about costumes... I would like to see the remnants of the Bat-bunny-robot armour of James Gordon in the Batcave. He liked this robotic partner


I actually like the idea of Jim's armor being a memorial/trophy in the Batcave. Be a cool way of referencing Snyder's run in future stories  :Smile: .

----------


## Agent Z

Batman being okay with torture and privacy violation is baffling and unnerving.

----------


## Celgress

> Of course he does. Bout time he endangered his own kid instead of other peoples.


LOL valid point  :Big Grin:

----------


## Stanlos

The Batfamily works best under the pen of Chuck Dixon.

----------


## byrd156

> The Batfamily works best under the pen of Chuck Dixon.


I don't think that's very controversial.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Batman should not give two figs about other superheroes (non-Batfam) turning evil or going crazy.

If it doesn't directly and immediayely affect Gotham, then Bruce has no time for it.

Also, no Batman on the Justice League.  Justice League Batman makes Gotham Batman look like a failure.

The Joker had become way too evil.  He is now more evil than Darkseid and Lucifer combined.  He is so horrific that his success at murder makes Batman look worse than weak, it makes him look complicit.

The Joker needs to become less evil and more prankster or he needs to permanently die (which won't happen b/c $$$).

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> The Batfamily works best under the pen of Chuck Dixon.


100% agree.

----------


## Red obin

> Holy thread necro, Batman.
> 
> Seriously, two-and-a-half years. WTF, why?


Superman forums have a thread like this,only appropriate we reintroduce batman's.

Also i like new 52 red robin suit too.
Tim has the best robin suits,both his original and one year later.

----------


## Stanlos

> I don't think that's very controversial.


Really??  I didn't know that. 

I guess I should try again.

Hmmm.  How about**:

Batman and the human fighters are orders of magnitude below the likes of Orion, Barda, and the Amazons in fighting ability (armed or unarmed).

----------


## Caivu

> Batman and the human fighters are orders of magnitude below the likes of Orion, Barda, and the Amazons in fighting ability (armed or unarmed).


I don't think that's controversial, either.

----------


## Vinsanity

- The Joker shouldn't be that dangerous. It's just not possible for him to be more dangerous than Lex and other heavy hitters.
 - Tim, Barbara and Dick shouldn't date within the family. That means no Babs/Dick and no Tim/Steph. 
 - Too many fake heroes stuff. Need to stop that.

----------


## Agent Z

> - The Joker shouldn't be that dangerous. It's just not possible for him to be more dangerous than Lex and other heavy hitters.
>  - Tim, Barbara and Dick shouldn't date within the family. That means no Babs/Dick and no Tim/Steph. 
>  - Too many fake heroes stuff. Need to stop that.


What do you mean by fake heroes?

----------


## Vinsanity

> What do you mean by fake heroes?


I guess I meant like vigilantes or like Gotham Girl and stuff like that. It just crowds everything even more so.

----------


## 16 Bit

My Bat family hot takes are that Bluebird is pretty cool and I'm sick of hearing about how smart Tim drake is.

----------


## Fergus

Alfred is a stirrer.

----------


## Korath

> My Bat family hot takes are that Bluebird is pretty cool and I'm sick of hearing about how smart Tim drake is.


Thanks you !

----------


## millernumber1

> My Bat family hot takes are that Bluebird is pretty cool and I'm sick of hearing about how smart Tim drake is.


I agree that Bluebird is pretty cool! Don't mind Tim being smart, though  :Smile:

----------


## Vinsanity

> My Bat family hot takes are that Bluebird is pretty cool and I'm sick of hearing about how smart Tim drake is.



Yeah I agree on the Tim Drake.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I agree that Bluebird is pretty cool! Don't mind Tim being smart, though


Ditto for Bluebird.  :Smile: 

I don't mind Tim being smart either, but I can see how it being brought up all the time as a propping mechanism by fans can be wearying.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> Superman forums have a thread like this,only appropriate we reintroduce batman's.
> 
> Also i like new 52 red robin suit too.
> Tim has the best robin suits,both his original and one year later.


You don't know how happy I am to see other like his New 52 suit.

I really love it and I truly miss it. His Rebirth costume feels like such a iconic and uniqueness downgrade to me.  :Frown:

----------


## Brave Sir Robin

Nightwing has been consistently excellent. The book was awesome in New 52 and it has not let up. 

Harley Quinn is getting boring. Crazy is better when it is in smaller doses. 

Batwoman needs her own series and should be allowed to get married. The DC rule that the Bat people can't get married is pathetic.

I miss the Talons. I had a love hate feeling about the Court of Owls but I love it when they show up. I could go for another Talon book. 

Gail Simone was so great at writing Batgirl that she made it painful to read the absolute crap that followed. Her Birds of Prey was also amazing but the latest incarnation is decent and her time on the book was pre New 52. But I wonder if the Batgirl book needs to be retired for a while to give it some space and have a new strong writer on it because it is sort of drifting into oblivion.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

I've read some comments about people saying that Cass is so capable at fighting that she's unbeatable and thus boring...first of, since when being badass is boring? plus, thats forgetting that she can barely read or write and has lots of trouble doing detective work, even when she tries...plus, i think that i don't need to remind everyone of why Cass is the best, coolest and most badass Batgirl ever (and only Batgirl to  have ever been truly respected and taken seriously by everyone) she brought the Batgirl mantle to new heights never seen before or again...i mean, no offense to Babs, Nell and Stephanie, i like them as well, but just compare "Batgirl" as a character and as a concept then, and now, if you do this comparisson all you want to do is laugh afterwards...

----------


## bat_girl_cc

And then people wonder why "their Batgirl" doesn't get treated more seriously or gets to be apart of bigger story-lines, its because the character as a crime-fighter isn't good enough, and doesn't have that much to offer to begin with, which its funny-enough and ironic at the same time.
Babs is better as Oracle, where she's truly amazing and unique, and can make a real difference.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Oh, Batgirl villains are kinda weak and lame, they cry...lol, and who do you want her to fight? which note-worthy villain can she take down with Jobbing/PIS?
Sure, current writting team is bad, the art and style they use for her on the books is just awful and wrong for her character, that all takes its tool, i agree, but even without that, it still wouldn't compare to Cass, not even close.

----------


## dietrich

> I've read some comments about people saying that Cass is so capable at fighting that she's unbeatable and thus boring...first of, since when being badass is boring? plus, thats forgetting that she can barely read or write and has lots of trouble doing detective work, even when she tries...plus, i think that i don't need to remind everyone of why Cass is the best, coolest and most badass Batgirl ever (and only Batgirl to  have ever been truly respected and taken seriously by everyone) she brought the Batgirl mantle to new heights never seen before or again...i mean, no offense to Babs, Nell and Stephanie, i like them as well, but just compare "Batgirl" as a character and as a concept then, and now, if you do this comparisson all you want to do is laugh afterwards...


Taste is subjective so there really is no right or wrong. You can't berate people who find Cass boring that's just how they feel [not saying they are right mind] There is no best, coolest, worst. It's all down to individual taste. We all gravitate to different things. Your interpretation of how Batgirl as a concept should work varies from that of others and that's okay doesn't mean that their's is laughable.

I like Cass as Orphan, Blackbat and as Batgirl but I would much rather have Babs or Steph in that role. Babs might be more nostalgia but I really enjoyed Steph's run as batgirl.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Taste is subjective so there really is no right or wrong. You can berate people who find Cass boring that's just how they feel [not saying they are right mind] There is no best, coolest, worst. It's all down to individual taste. We all gravitate to different things. Your interpretation of how Batgirl as a concept should work varies from that others and that okay doesn't mean that their's is laughable.
> 
> I like Cass as Orphan, Blackbat and as Batgirl but I would much rather have Babs or Steph in that role. Babs might be more nostalgia but I really enjoyed Steph's run as batgirl.


You're right, there's no right or wrong on this matters, just personal opinions and views really.
I was talking about the people that talk as if bringging back Cass wasn't worth it, nobody in the whole family (including Batman) is worth more as fighter than Cass. she can kick anybodies ass while holding back  :Cool:  and thats just one of the reasons why i love her  :Embarrassment:

----------


## bat_girl_cc

And like i said, i do like both Babs and Steph, but in different roles, Babs was better as Oracle, for caring about her character its why i say that, it won't be long until the current Batgirl title gets cancelled, and this time i don't think that there will be a relaunch with the same stuff...if you know what i mean, and that could be very bad for Babs.

----------


## Aahz

I don't like to have charcters like Cass, Damian, Batwing and Azrael in the core Batfamily that don't really work in a down to earth "real world" universe like Earth One or the Nolan Verse or a book like Batman Year One.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s a bit amazing how all you talk about Cass is how good a figther she gets to be and thus how she earns bigger plotlines that way. 

In truth, whether you like her or not, Barara will always be the more relevant Batgirl over either Steph or Cass. It got nothing to do with how many people x character can beat.

----------


## The World

With both Cass and Steph holding their own roles I don't think DC really has any incentive to shift Babs out of the Batgirl role. It's another character they can give a title to and infinitely relaunch.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> I've read some comments about people saying that Cass is so capable at fighting that she's unbeatable and thus boring...first of, since when being badass is boring? plus, thats forgetting that she can barely read or write and has lots of trouble doing detective work, even when she tries...plus, i think that i don't need to remind everyone of why Cass is the best, coolest and most badass Batgirl ever (and only Batgirl to  have ever been truly respected and taken seriously by everyone) she brought the Batgirl mantle to new heights never seen before or again...i mean, no offense to Babs, Nell and Stephanie, i like them as well, but just compare "Batgirl" as a character and as a concept then, and now, if you do this comparisson all you want to do is laugh afterwards...


If she's so great, why doesn't she get any use outside of the comics? The truth is that she didn't add much to the role except for being a good fighter, which is why she didn't last long. Even her kewl costume wasn't even her own,

----------


## Ragged Maw

The new prologue of The Killing Joke movie was brilliant and moving.

----------


## ed2962

Batman has no right to tell anyone not to be a vigilante superhero.

----------


## Baseman

> Batman has no right to tell anyone not to be a vigilante superhero.


Depends on who it is.If its someone with actual training behind them then yea.

If its just some kid off the street.Than he has every right to scold them for it.

----------


## Agent Z

> If she's so great, why doesn't she get any use outside of the comics? The truth is that she didn't add much to the role except for being a good fighter, which is why she didn't last long. Even her kewl costume wasn't even her own,


She doesn't get any use outside of the comics because the higher ups have no interest in her. A character's lack of use outside the comics is not always down to their quality. 

Cass brings to the role of Batgirl being the child of two assassins as well as racial and disability representation which DC could definitely use given how much more diversity is being appreciated today.

----------


## Agent Z

> Depends on who it is.If its someone with actual training behind them then yea.
> 
> If its just some kid off the street.Than he has every right to scold them for it.


No he doesn't. Vigilantism is still illegal regardless of the skill the vigilante in question possesses. There's also the fact that more often than not Bruce's issue with other vigilantes has less to do with their skill set and more to do with their not upholding his vaunted one rule.

----------


## Baseman

> No he doesn't. Vigilantism is still illegal regardless of the skill the vigilante in question possesses. There's also the fact that more often than not Bruce's issue with other vigilantes has less to do with their skill set and more to do with their not upholding his vaunted one rule.


Eh.Not really concerned with the legality as much as preventing someone from getting themsevles killed.

Bruce has trained for years and has the support of his parents muti millon dollar company.So I don't think its wrong for disprove of someone trying a be vigilante without out any of that shit since its likely that they'll die

----------


## ed2962

> Eh.Not really concerned with the legality as much as preventing someone from getting themsevles killed.
> 
> Bruce has trained for years and has the support of his parents muti millon dollar company.So I don't think its wrong for disprove of someone trying a be vigilante without out any of that shit since its likely that they'll die


That's the supposed  in story reason he says that, but it still doesn't give him the right. 

He also doesn't have the right to tell other heroes to stay out of "his" city.

----------


## Frontier

I think if someone with Batman's wealth of training, experience, resources, and intuition told me I wasn't cut out to be a vigilante, I would take his word for it. Because who else has a better idea of what it takes?  

But that's just me  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though, honestly, I think we could use more examples in-universe of people who try and emulate Batman or become a Gotham vigilante and just can't cut it or deal with the lifestyle. Showcase how the Batfamily is a cut above the rest and that the life of a vigilante is not something that anyone can take on lightly (least of all without the proper training).

----------


## Baseman

> That's the supposed  in story reason he says that, but it still doesn't give him the right. 
> 
> He also doesn't have the right to tell other heroes to stay out of "his" city.


I have to disagree.Ones trained.The other isn't. Therefore I see no problem with Batman disapproving. Because if the kid gets killed playing vigilante, its batman that has to live with it.

----------


## Alan2099

Given how Gotham is typically treated as the crime and insanity capital of the world, you'd think he'd welcome some new talent helping out or the occasional visits from other heroes.

----------


## Agent Z

> I have to disagree.Ones trained.The other isn't. Therefore I see no problem with Batman disapproving. Because if the kid gets killed playing vigilante, its batman that has to live with it.


Why? it's not his kid and he doesn't have a patent on vigilantism.

----------


## Aahz

> Cass brings to the role of Batgirl being the child of two assassins as well as racial and disability representation which DC could definitely use given how much more diversity is being appreciated today.


The only disabilty she had for the most part of her chareer was that she couldn't read because she never learned it. I'm not really sure if that really counts as "disability representation".

And having assassins or villains as parents is hardly something unique in current comics.

----------


## darkseidpwns

The problem with other vigilantes is that
They were either inspired by Batman, wear his hand me downs etc. These people operate on a faulty premise to begin with. Why diss and disobey the guy whos your supposed role model?
Either that or you get outright bad vigilantes who are antagonists, like Azbat JPV or old Jason.
Ragman to my knowledge is the only one who doesn't fall in either category and it's largely why there hasn't ever been much conflict with Batman.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The only disabilty she had for the most part of her chareer was that she couldn't read because she never learned it. I'm not really sure if that really counts as "disability representation".
> 
> And having assassins or villains as parents is hardly something unique in current comics.


Yeah she's never really been a mute, hardly a disability.

----------


## Agent Z

> The only disabilty she had for the most part of her chareer was that she couldn't read because she never learned it. I'm not really sure if that really counts as "disability representation".
> 
> And having assassins or villains as parents is hardly something unique in current comics.


It is unique to the cartoons and movies and those were what I was referring too. Besides I was talking about what she brought to the role of Batgirl not to the comics in general.

----------


## Agent Z

> The problem with other vigilantes is that
> They were either inspired by Batman, wear his hand me downs etc. These people operate on a faulty premise to begin with. Why diss and disobey the guy whos your supposed role model?
> Either that or you get outright bad vigilantes who are antagonists, like Azbat JPV or old Jason.
> Ragman to my knowledge is the only one who doesn't fall in either category and it's largely why there hasn't ever been much conflict with Batman.


1) Batman is not the only vigilante in the DCU. Inspiration could have come from anywhere and it's just coincidence the new guy was in Gotham as well. 

2) Bruce being a role model does not give him the right to be a condescending tool towards others. 

3) the depiction of vigilantes like Jason or Balley as antagonists is an example of writers treating any new hero who could compete with the main hero as a threat. For non-Batman examples, see The Elite or Magog.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah she's never really been a mute, hardly a disability.


There are variations of muteness and the causes range from the psychological to the physical.

----------


## Harpsikord

The Batman line is much more interesting when you read about the non-Batman (Bruce Wayne) members, like Nightwing, Batgirl, Red Hood, Red Robin, and Spoiler.

As a general thing I just don't really like Bruce Wayne.

Also, for the record? Cassandra IS mute. She is selectively mute, which means she only speaks around those she is comfortable with or does not speak at all, but by choice.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 1) Batman is not the only vigilante in the DCU. Inspiration could have come from anywhere and it's just coincidence the new guy was in Gotham as well. 
> 
> 2) Bruce being a role model does not give him the right to be a condescending tool towards others. 
> 
> 3) the depiction of vigilantes like Jason or Balley as antagonists is an example of writers treating any new hero who could compete with the main hero as a threat. For non-Batman examples, see The Elite or Magog.


The Elite and Magog were specifically created to prove a point and so was Jasons resurrection. They're at the service of the story. Now someone like Vigilante and Ragman, that's a different story altogether.
The inspiration comes from Batman when it comes to Gotham based vigilantes almost all the time.
Nor do the newbies have any right to diss the guy they've based themselves on. I have no problem with Vigilante mouthing off  to Batman but people like Steph need to shut up.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> There are variations of muteness and the causes range from the psychological to the physical.


Except in Cass stories its never the focus, doesn't even compare to say Babs own disabity. If she can communicate and even speak or take orders without any difficulty then what exactly is the disabity again?

----------


## Agent Z

Yeah and that point appears to be that Batman and Superman are always right. 

They only diss them when they act like assholes. 

What are you talking about? Her inability to communicate using speech was repeatedly being brought up in her stories as much Barbara's paralysis. Did you even read Cass's book? 

She could speak but it was with extreme difficulty. And even then she mostly spoke to people she was comfortable with which is called selective mutism as Endso g said. She could take orders because she was mute not deaf. Look up selective mutism.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah and that point appears to be that Batman and Superman are always right. 
> Yeah Bruce sure was a hole to Steph in the VS arc.
> Yeah all of it actually.
> Her disability is one in which communication or lack of should be the focus. If Cass can communicate without a hitch, if others can understand her and she can understand them then it's not a disability, the number of words spoken be damned.
> 
> They only diss them when they act like assholes. 
> 
> What are you talking about? Her inability to communicate using speech was repeatedly being brought up in her stories as much Barbara's paralysis. Did you even read Cass's book? 
> 
> She could speak but it was with extreme difficulty. And even then she mostly spoke to people she was comfortable with which is called selective mutism as Endso g said. She could take orders because she was mute not deaf. Look up selective mutism.


Because the other characters like Magog were created to service their stories, they have no value of their own.

----------


## Agent Z

> Because the other characters like Magog were created to service their stories, they have no value of their own.


Says you. 

Again, Cass cannot communicate without a hitch. I really have to wonder which stories you actually read.

----------


## josai21

-Batman's no kill rule is not a healthy representation of someone trying to do the right thing. It demeans real life heroes who kill in self defense or soldiers who fight to protect the innocent. 

Not considering the numerous people who are killed by his villains that he could stop. 

Batman should not be for murder, but killing in self defense or allowing the State to enforce capital punishment should be allowed.

----------


## Agent Z

> -Batman's no kill rule is not a healthy representation of someone trying to do the right thing. It demeans real life heroes who kill in self defense or soldiers who fight to protect the innocent. 
> 
> Not considering the numerous people who are killed by his villains that he could stop. 
> 
> Batman should not be for murder, but killing in self defense or allowing the State to enforce capital punishment should be allowed.


The fact that Bruce has no problem breaking this rule when it comes to non humans makes it clear the rule only exists to keep iconic but underpowered villains like the Joker alive.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Why? it's not his kid and he doesn't have a patent on vigilantism.


Just because it's not his kid doesn't mean that he won't care what happens to them. He and his parents were victims of violence when he was 10. It doesn't make any sense for his character to ever condone young people getting into violent situations. It's one of the main issues people have always had with the Robin concept.

Bruce telling the stupid kids to go home before they get hurt is just him being sensible. If they're feelings get hurt they can go cry in their rooms and get over it, or put some effort into training and approach the situation again as a legal adult responsible for their own decisions.

----------


## Carabas

> The only disabilty she had for the most part of her chareer was that she couldn't read because she never learned it. I'm not really sure if that really counts as "disability representation".


She was never very good at spoken language either. Very monosyllabic, mostly half sentences. 

And she wasn't analphabetic becayuse she had never learned to read, but because of the way she was trained she was using the language center of her brain for body reading and combat. She did not have the capability to learn how to read.




> Except in Cass stories its never the focus, doesn't even compare to say Babs own disabity. If she can communicate and even speak or take orders without any difficulty then what exactly is the disabity again?


Have you read any Cass stories that weren't written by Adam "Wikipedia? What's that" Beechen?

----------


## Agent Z

> Just because it's not his kid doesn't mean that he won't care what happens to them. He and his parents were victims of violence when he was 10. It doesn't make any sense for his character to ever condone young people getting into violent situations. It's one of the main issues people have always had with the Robin concept.
> 
> Bruce telling the stupid kids to go home before they get hurt is just him being sensible. If they're feelings get hurt they can go cry in their rooms and get over it, or put some effort into training and approach the situation again as a legal adult responsible for their own decisions.


If you think about it him turning to vigilantism instead of proper law enforcement is as nonsensical as the Robin thing. It's one of those instances of writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too where they have superheroes operate outside the law but we're  meant to see them like authority figures which should make the DCU a nightmare to live in. To say nothing of how these guys can only maintain there careers because of supernatural or economical means so there's good old classicism mixed in there too.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> It`s a bit amazing how all you talk about Cass is how good a figther she gets to be and thus how she earns bigger plotlines that way. 
> 
> In truth, whether you like her or not, Barara will always be the more relevant Batgirl over either Steph or Cass. It got nothing to do with how many people x character can beat.


Relevant how, exactly? Her career is basically in the shadow of Batman, her origin is too corny for the exploding comic book movies that are coming out and the only time she was recognized as equal to Bruce in any meaningful way was when she was Oracle.

Yes, she's appeared in more media forms, but that's a fickle thing. Ask Wally West and John Stewart about that

You're right in that Cass hasn't been in as many media forms, but then, the current regime suppressed her for 10 stinkin' years. Prior to that, she had the longest running Batgirl series that sold pretty well. 

Call me crazy, but I think a bi-racial ass kicker, struggling to overcome the 'nature vs. nurture', her abusive upbringing and trouble expressing herself could be pretty damn compelling. 

Babs' Batgirl is like Hal Jordan, an artifact of the Silver Age that writers struggle to update and find a place for. Sadly, Babs had a pretty good place as Oracle, but they took that from her.

If and when DC gets their act together, I'd put money on them choosing Cass, or Steph, over Babs. 

Hell, Cass' origin is such that you could have her be Batman's sidekick without inviting the ethical question of 'Why is he training an underaged kid to fight alongside him?', as she would already be trained.

----------


## Aahz

> Hell, Cass' origin is such that you could have her be Batman's sidekick without inviting the ethical question of 'Why is he training an underaged kid to fight alongside him?', as she would already be trained.


Pre flashpoint Barbra wasn't underaged when she started as Batgirl.
And the comic book versions of Cass origin are something you can't easily tell in one episode.

On top of this Cass is imo a charcter that works well in a solo but not that great as support charcter or team member, unless you pick the team members very carefully and that doesn't work that great as sidekick for Bruce.

----------


## Agent Z

Why does Cass' origin need to be told in one episode?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Pre flashpoint Barbra wasn't underaged when she started as Batgirl.
> And the comic book versions of Cass origin are something you can't easily tell in one episode.
> 
> On top of this Cass is imo a charcter that works well in a solo but not that great as support charcter or team member, unless you pick the team members very carefully and that doesn't work that great as sidekick for Bruce.


The underage thing was more for Robin et all, not Babs  :Wink: 

Cass' origin is pretty easy to tell, all things considered. They did it in one issue all the time in the comics. 

As for being a sidekick, they could easily have it as Batman trying to coax Cass, already a crime fighter, into having a civilian life.

When it comes to possible movies, Robins undermine current suspension of disbelief, in that Batman is encouraging and training under age kids to fight crime. Cass deftly avoids both issues, and can help Batman be more human as he tries to coax her into civilian life.

Babs may lack the under age bit, but she always lacks a compelling origin. Her usual MO is "I'm awesome at everything and think Batman's awesome! So, here comes Batgirl!" She has no tragedy/motivation to push her character, and her training background is usually pretty mundane/underwhelming. In many ways, Steph has her beat in terms of origin.

----------


## Frontier

> If you think about it him turning to vigilantism instead of proper law enforcement is as nonsensical as the Robin thing. It's one of those instances of writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too where they have superheroes operate outside the law but we're  meant to see them like authority figures which should make the DCU a nightmare to live in. To say nothing of how these guys can only maintain there careers because of supernatural or economical means so there's good old classicism mixed in there too.


Is it though? Especially when you take into account the corruption and general ineffectiveness of the GCPD. 

If Bruce wants to wage a one-man war against crime, then working outside an institution that's let it prosper in the city or is almost consumed by it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch.

----------


## Agent Z

> Is it though? Especially when you take into account the corruption and general ineffectiveness of the GCPD. 
> 
> If Bruce wants to wage a one-man war against crime, then working outside an institution that's let it prosper in the city or is almost consumed by it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch.


To which I must ask, how is Bruce not further adding to crime and corription? The guy pretty much goes after whatever target he deems worthy of his wrath the law be damned. To say nothing of how he's a walking evidence contaminant. Any crook he drags can easily claim they were framed.

----------


## Frontier

> Too bad Bruce doesn't do anything to make the GCPD less corrupt. One could even argue he adds to its corruption. The guy pretty much goes after whatever target he deems worthy of his wrath the law be damned. To say nothing of how he's a walking evidence contaminant. Any crook he drags can easily claim they were framed.


Well, he does as Batman, by working with Jim Gordon and helping Jim root out corruption. I imagine their partnership also allows Batman to effectively subdue criminals and work within the law to the extent where they can effectively catch crooks. 

And I imagine Bruce Wayne probably contributes to the police in some ways, through either grants or donations as part of his numerous charity works.

----------


## dietrich

Double post

----------


## dietrich

> Relevant how, exactly? Her career is basically in the shadow of Batman, her origin is too corny for the exploding comic book movies that are coming out and the only time she was recognized as equal to Bruce in any meaningful way was when she was Oracle.
> 
> Yes, she's appeared in more media forms, but that's a fickle thing. Ask Wally West and John Stewart about that
> 
> You're right in that Cass hasn't been in as many media forms, but then, the current regime suppressed her for 10 stinkin' years. Prior to that, she had the longest running Batgirl series that sold pretty well. 
> 
> Call me crazy, but I think a bi-racial ass kicker, struggling to overcome the 'nature vs. nurture', her abusive upbringing and trouble expressing herself could be pretty damn compelling. 
> 
> Babs' Batgirl is like Hal Jordan, an artifact of the Silver Age that writers struggle to update and find a place for. Sadly, Babs had a pretty good place as Oracle, but they took that from her.
> ...


Relevant in that she is ingrained in public consiciouness. She is the only batgirl the non comic reader audience know. All members of the Batfamily are in batman's shadow.

_"a bi-racial ass kicker, struggling to overcome the 'nature vs. nurture', her abusive upbringing and trouble expressing herself could be pretty damn compelling

Cass' origin is such that you could have her be Batman's sidekick without inviting the ethical question of 'Why is he training an underaged kid to fight alongside him?', as she would already be trained"_ 


All those aspects of Cass' origin and mixed ethnicity would work except that Damian is currently flying all those colours. That's his "Shtick" and they are exploring the whole nature v nurture aspect with him and have been doing for sometime now. Of course there isn't a law that says they couldn't work the same angle with 2 characters it just gets a tad repetitious.

Anyway it's a shame, the fact is that when it comes down to it DC clearly has a very strong preference for Babs as Batgirl.

----------


## Carabas

> And the comic book versions of Cass origin are something you can't easily tell in one episode.


One episode of wat?

"Trained from birth by her father to be the perfect assassin, Cassandra Cain rebelled, vowed to never kill, and chose to use her preternatural skills as a superhero instead."

There, done. 

Green Arrow is taking five years to tell his origin story on tv.

----------


## Frontier

For what it's worth, Babs' Batgirl origins in the DCAU and _The Batman_ were both two-parters  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Y'know, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Cass as Batgirl in _Beware the Batman_ had that show continued. The show was deliberate about avoiding the "usual suspects" for the most part, and already setup Barbara as Oracle, not to mention it was the first Batman cartoon to use Shiva.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> If you think about it him turning to vigilantism instead of proper law enforcement is as nonsensical as the Robin thing. It's one of those instances of writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too where they have superheroes operate outside the law but we're  meant to see them like authority figures which should make the DCU a nightmare to live in. To say nothing of how these guys can only maintain there careers because of supernatural or economical means so there's good old classicism mixed in there too.


A grown man responsible only for himself and putting himself in danger by becoming a vigilante, as legally sketchy as that is, is definitely less nonsensical than him bringing an 8 year old with him as he fights supervillains, gangsters, rapists and serial killers. There are degrees to these things, not everything is the same degree of ridiculous. If he looks the other way when a 13 year old kid goes out to fight crime and gets ripped apart by Killer Croc then, I'm sorry, he's a bigger asshole than he was when he told the kid to pack up and go home and leave the dangerous situations to adults.

Robin has become so iconic that there is no way around not having at least one in canon, but any new kids on the scene? I think Bruce telling them to not endanger themselves is just being a responsible human being. Putting myself in his shoes, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable if some kids modeled themselves after me and got shot in the face when I could have done something to prevent it. That's basic morality, I don't need to have Bruce's economical means to feel that way. 





> Well, he does as Batman, by working with Jim Gordon and helping Jim root out corruption. I imagine their partnership also allows Batman to effectively subdue criminals and work within the law to the extent where they can effectively catch crooks. 
> 
> And I imagine Bruce Wayne probably contributes to the police in some ways, through either grants or donations as part of his numerous charity works.


Yeah, suspension of disbelief is definitely a vital component to these stories. It's fantasy. I can buy that Bruce somehow has enough money to do Bat-things while also donating a considerable amount of money to charities and the police force. Because he lives in a universe where Zeus and leprechauns exist.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Relevant in that she is ingrained in public consiciouness. She is the only batgirl the non comic reader audience know. All members of the Batfamily are in batman's shadow.
> 
> _"a bi-racial ass kicker, struggling to overcome the 'nature vs. nurture', her abusive upbringing and trouble expressing herself could be pretty damn compelling
> 
> Cass' origin is such that you could have her be Batman's sidekick without inviting the ethical question of 'Why is he training an underaged kid to fight alongside him?', as she would already be trained"_ 
> 
> 
> All those aspects of Cass' origin and mixed ethnicity would work except that Damian is currently flying all those colours. That's his "Shtick" and they are exploring the whole nature v nurture aspect with him and have been doing for sometime now. Of course there isn't a law that says they couldn't work the same angle with 2 characters it just gets a tad repetitious.
> 
> Anyway it's a shame, the fact is that when it comes down to it DC clearly has a very strong preference for Babs as Batgirl.


DC had a strong preference for Wally, until they didn't. Babs being the only Batgirl the public knows doesn't matter much if the powers that be think that there's money to be made elsewhere. Remember, Cass was the first Batgirl with her own series, and it's still the longest unbroken Batgirl series around.

As for Damien, he really doesn't fly Cass' colors. If anything, they act as if the nature vs. nurture debate with him is settled since being Batman's son automatically entitles him to be Robin (somehow), his ability to function in society is hampered only by his ego and while he might technically be bi-racial, he still somehow manages to look like all the other Robins that came before him. In addition to that, he has no real redemption arc.

At best, Damien is Cass-lite  :Wink:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Says you. 
> 
> Again, Cass cannot communicate without a hitch. I really have to wonder which stories you actually read.


Says the writers themselves and the story, it's called *Batman Under the Hood* and *Superman vs Elite* These along with KC are stories about Supes and Bats not jobbers who were set up to be squashed.
Now if Vigilante and Ragman are squashed to make Supes/Bats look good then I'll agree with you and there are instances of those but squashing Magog is like kicking Jokers ass, they're wrong, they're created to be wrong, that's the intent of the writer, and that's what I always go with, same goes for Judas Contract, if Terra is a villain then she's a villain her age be damned, unless you know better.

I have read all stories with Cass thank you, her disability was only a problem in NML and the early issues of her series but near the end of the first year of her series and onwards she's been communicating just fine. Even the new version says words that she wants to say, if she can easily convey her intentions and follow orders then there's no disability regardless of the word count. Even Bizarro and Doomsday are more disable  than Cass. Jericho is another example and a relevant one here, he talks when he occupies someone's body, he cant speak otherwise, writers actually treat his disability like a disability.

----------


## dietrich

> Well, he does as Batman, by working with Jim Gordon and helping Jim root out corruption. I imagine their partnership also allows Batman to effectively subdue criminals and work within the law to the extent where they can effectively catch crooks. 
> 
> And I imagine Bruce Wayne probably contributes to the police in some ways, through either grants or donations as part of his numerous charity works.


I always wonder instead of making and training robins and other such sidekicks what if Bruce founded a crack team of Lawyers, scientists and social workers. Obviously he doesn't have a problem catching criminals. He manages that just fine where he fails is in the keeping em locked up rehabilitation bit.
Imagine it:

Tim could be the Incorruptible DA working to get and keep the criminals lockup and in his spare time he can partner with Damian and Harper to build a hi tech bobby trapped inescapable jail/ asylum.
Dick could come home, get a job on the force [fighting corruption from within] and Nightwinging on the side.
Jason would make a ruthless jailer. i'm sure he can think up some inventive ways to keep the inmates from misbehaving.
Babs since she was once a member of congress could run for mayor and end all corruption.
Alfred, Leslie and Steph can run the numerous orphanages and rehabilitation centres.
Damian can Robin
Cass can Batgirl.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> It`s a bit amazing how all you talk about Cass is how good a figther she gets to be and thus how she earns bigger plotlines that way. 
> 
> In truth, whether you like her or not, Barara will always be the more relevant Batgirl over either Steph or Cass. It got nothing to do with how many people x character can beat.


Yes, i don't like it, and i now that Babs will always be the number 1 Batgirl in the comics and specially out-side of the comics medium...but that has nothing to do with her worthyness as a crime-fighter..."In truth", wether you like it or not, DC Comics higher-ups don't like Cass in the slightest, they have their own head-cannon's on which Babs is Batgirl forever regardless if there's someone out there bettter than her, and thus Cass will never be used in any media until there's new blood in charge, and the only reason why Cass got brought back was because of the new Bat-group director "Mark Doyle" is a fan of her, and you can bet that he had a (big) "voice" on it.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> If she's so great, why doesn't she get any use outside of the comics? The truth is that she didn't add much to the role except for being a good fighter, which is why she didn't last long. Even her kewl costume wasn't even her own,


The reason its pretty obvious, why it happens that the coolest and most badass Batgirl there is and that there ever was, doesn't get even some small exposition out-side of comics, while a much lamer Batgirl gets to be in movies and games? its because the people in charge want it that way, but its sad because if they really cared about business, both Cass, and Steph and many other characters should already had appeared in movies, games, etc, because people say: "oh, nobody knows them..." and nobody ever will, if they get no exposition...only that way can DC win money big time with their characters, actually they should have been long fired because its obvious that they either don't know the first thing about running a company, or they don't care, as long as their favourite characters get to appear.
Another proof of that (besides ruining their own characters) is that it toke them a huge money-loss with the New 52 fiasco and then DC-you, for Rebirth to happen.
Geoff Jhons seems to know what's best for business, but i'm afraid that he's to close to Dan Didio and the rest of his gang to ever do things right.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Now, for a Cass movie to happen, it would be tricky for several reasons...
1) there's already more than one origin of Cass and one contradicts the other...
2) Cassandra's origin is both awesome and compeling, but it would take some "screen time" for it to make it good, and we know that a Cass-solo-movie isn't going to happen, because it wouldn't sell, only characters like "Batman" or "Superman" have enough fans already to sustain a solo-movie, its not about being good or bad, its about DC not even trying it, at best we would get a Batman vs Batgirl movie similar to Batman vs Robin, but this time instead of the characters joining forces to fight some foe, i imagine that they would tell Cassandra's story and they would fight Lady Shiva and some other League Of Assassins members in the process, but honestly, after watching Damian_son_of_batman who IMO suposedly should have been easier to make , i really don't trust DC to give Cass justice, but thats another story...
3) Damian came after Cass, way after actually, Damian was introduced in the comics in 2006 about the same time that Cassandra's 73-issue-long Batgirl solo series ended, just to give you an idea...but the fact is that because he's the "son of Batman" DC saw in him a cash-cow, and i got to admit, it was smart move of them, but this creates a problem, even tho Cass and Damian's origin are different (Cass was original meant to become Ra's all ghul perfect body-guard, while Damian was to become the leader of the league) the fact is that Damian shares some of the same "themes" with Cass origin-wise, (child-daughter-of-assassins, rebells, and now tries to be good...which again, Damian "stole" from Cass, and he was doing a "redemption road" on his solo book last year, while Cass did it like more than a decade ago...) but fact remains, that a movie with Cass while essentially different and much more badass, it would inevitably revisit some of the same already explored themes that were explored with Damian.
All in all, a Cass movie would always be worth it, even if i don't trust DC to do it right even if they were up to it, but this discussion its kinda of a lost-cause because it won't happen, not until new people get to be in charge, at least.

----------


## dietrich

> DC had a strong preference for Wally, until they didn't. Babs being the only Batgirl the public knows doesn't matter much if the powers that be think that there's money to be made elsewhere. Remember, Cass was the first Batgirl with her own series, and it's still the longest unbroken Batgirl series around.
> 
> As for Damien, he really doesn't fly Cass' colors. If anything, they act as if the nature vs. nurture debate with him is settled since being Batman's son automatically entitles him to be Robin (somehow), his ability to function in society is hampered only by his ego and while he might technically be bi-racial, he still somehow manages to look like all the other Robins that came before him. In addition to that, he has no real redemption arc.
> 
> At best, Damien is Cass-lite



Yes but I don't see that love affair ending anytime soon not with the killing joke and the fact that when the had to pick a version of batgirl to introduce in their new animated universe they still chose Babs.
Steph was an extra on YJ 2 so she might appear in YJ3  but as spoiler.
Of course something drastic could happen but I wouldn't hold my breathe.

Not really the new teen titans book has him learning how to be good. In fact the book heavily stresses the awful conditions of his upbringing the fact that he has bad blood, that he never had a choice growing up but once he did once he was exposed to his fathers environment he chose to walk that path.
Yes he felt he was entitled to the mantle and yes he was more than combat qualified to hold the position but he still had to earn it ie prove that he was worthy.
He's inability to function socialy is a result of his warped upbringing and childhood. His ego is the result of his upbringing.
They are depicting him as visually ethnic in some books like TT, Robin son of batman Gotham Academy etc but yeah in most versions he is still visually white. There are minorities who look white though.
He did have a Redemption arc Robin Son of Batman. The entire book is all about his redemption. The writers even spell it out by declaring that the R on his robin costume now stands for Redemption.
Batman Inc 8 was also his redemption Anyone who willingly and bravely gives their life against ridiculous odds for others is redeemed in my eyes.

I wouldn't say so though I believe Cass is the better fighter unfortunately for Cass Damian is currently working all her niche angles right now. To the General Public attributes all those things to Damian cos they got to know him 1st.

He is the bi-racial ass kicker, struggling to overcome the 'nature vs. nurture' aspects his abusive upbringing resulted in. He has trouble expressing
himself however he is already very well trained that it doesn't raise the ethical question of 'Why is he training an underage kid to fight alongside him?'

----------


## Carabas

> Now, for a Cass movie to happen, it would be tricky for several reasons...
> 1) there's already more than one origin of Cass and one contradicts the other...


Same goes for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Iron Man, Thor...




> 2) Cassandra's origin is both awesome and compeling, but it would take some "screen time" for it to make it good


That is true for all superhero origins. At least she has an origin story. Not all Batgirls can say that.




> and we know that a Cass-solo-movie isn't going to happen, because it wouldn't sell, only characters like "Batman" or "Superman" have enough fans already to sustain a solo-movie,


Guardians Of The Galaxy, Ant-Man, Suicide Squad... Comicbook popularity does not matter in these things. All it takes is a movie maker who wants to tell a Cassandra Cain story.

I have read 3), but can't work out what you're trying to say there.

----------


## Agent Z

> Says the writers themselves and the story, it's called *Batman Under the Hood* and *Superman vs Elite* These along with KC are stories about Supes and Bats not jobbers who were set up to be squashed.
> Now if Vigilante and Ragman are squashed to make Supes/Bats look good then I'll agree with you and there are instances of those but squashing Magog is like kicking Jokers ass, they're wrong, they're created to be wrong, that's the intent of the writer, and that's what I always go with, same goes for Judas Contract, if Terra is a villain then she's a villain her age be damned, unless you know better.
> 
> I have read all stories with Cass thank you, her disability was only a problem in NML and the early issues of her series but near the end of the first year of her series and onwards she's been communicating just fine. Even the new version says words that she wants to say, if she can easily convey her intentions and follow orders then there's no disability regardless of the word count. Even Bizarro and Doomsday are more disable  than Cass. Jericho is another example and a relevant one here, he talks when he occupies someone's body, he cant speak otherwise, writers actually treat his disability like a disability.


Yeah that's a load right there. A character's position as the protagonist is not an automatic defense for them. That's Twilight style of crappy writing. Or are you telling me if some writer wrote a Batman or Superman story decrying vaccination and used a cartoonish straw man to represent their opposition you'd just accept it? 

Nope. Cass only spoke with extreme difficulty with people she was comfortable with as seen in the ellipses in her speech. What the books didn't do was present her as stupid or slow thinking because of her disability. Her taking orders does not negate that.

----------


## dietrich

> The reason its pretty obvious, why it happens that the coolest and most badass Batgirl there is and that there ever was, doesn't get even some small exposition out-side of comics, while a much lamer Batgirl gets to be in movies and games? its because the people in charge want it that way, but its sad because if they really cared about business, both Cass, and Steph and many other characters should already had appeared in movies, games, etc, because people say: "oh, nobody knows them..." and nobody ever will, if they get no exposition...only that way can DC win money big time with their characters, actually they should have been long fired because its obvious that they either don't know the first thing about running a company, or they don't care, as long as their favourite characters get to appear.
> Another proof of that (besides ruining their own characters) is that it toke them a huge money-loss with the New 52 fiasco and then DC-you, for Rebirth to happen.
> Geoff Jhons seems to know what's best for business, but i'm afraid that he's to close to Dan Didio and the rest of his gang to ever do things right.


Can I ask does it have to be batgirl seems to me that we could have Babs as Batgirl, Cass as Orphan and Steph as Spolier. What if Cass and Steph were given representation in mass media as under current mantles. Say if Orphan and Spoiler popped up in YJ or GO!

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Can I ask does it have to be batgirl seems to me that we could have Babs as Batgirl, Cass as Orphan and Steph as Spolier. What if Cass and Steph were given representation in mass media as under current mantles. Say if Orphan and Spoiler popped up in YJ or GO!


No, i doesn't have to be Batgirl, but IMO it would have been better with Babs as Oracle, Cass as Batgirl, and Steph as Spoiler.
Cass and Steph won't appear on either of those shows, lol, thats just people who as much power in DC as me or you, speculating on the internet foruns.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Besides, i wasn't talking about only Cass and Steph, but all characters! its clear that DC doesn't know how to do things, or doesn't want to for some reason...DC has ALOT of great characters that could earn them ALOT of money, its just that those ideas were never tried...

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah that's a load right there. A character's position as the protagonist is not an automatic defense for them. That's Twilight style of crappy writing. Or are you telling me if some writer wrote a Batman or Superman story decrying vaccination and used a cartoonish straw man to represent their opposition you'd just accept it?


No, I'd just think that's terrible characterization and bad writing  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Agent Z

> Same goes for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Iron Man, Thor...
> 
> 
> That is true for all superhero origins. At least she has an origin story. Not all Batgirls can say that.
> 
> 
> Guardians Of The Galaxy, Ant-Man, Suicide Squad... Comicbook popularity does not matter in these things. All it takes is a movie maker who wants to tell a Cassandra Cain story.
> 
> I have read 3), but can't work out what you're trying to say there.


I believe what she means is that since Damian and Cass share similar themes a Cass movie would be considered a rehash of Damian. Especially now that Damian had gotten some out old comic exposure in the animated movies.

----------


## Carabas

> I believe what she means is that since Damian and Cass share similar themes a Cass movie would be considered a rehash of Damian. Especially now that Damian had gotten some out old comic exposure in the animated movies.


Hmm.
I'd say all Batman-related characters share a huge amount of similar themes.

----------


## Agent Z

> No, I'd just think that's terrible characterization and bad writing .


How do you think I feel about Kingdom Come, What's So Funny and Under The Red Hood :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> No, i doesn't have to be Batgirl, but IMO it would have been better with Babs as Oracle, Cass as Batgirl, and Steph as Spoiler.
> Cass and Steph won't appear on either of those shows, lol, thats just people who as much power in DC as me or you, speculating on the internet foruns.


You never know Steph was in YJ2. DC could use these shows to feature / introduce non A list heroes to the GA. I mean it doesn't have to be a big role just cameo's or tiny background roles just to get them in public consciousness. those mini DC shorts should feature these characters who so far are only known to comic readers. That would be a good way to get them off the ground introduced then take from there.

----------


## Agent Z

> Hmm.
> I'd say all Batman-related characters share a huge amount of similar themes.


Well that's probably why you won't see a whole lot of em in the films if some here are to b e believed.

----------


## Frontier

> Well that's probably why you won't see a whole lot of em in the films if some here are to b e believed.


Well, I think it's more to do with that you can only fit so many characters into something and that, like it or not, the "originals" have a better chance of making it in then their successors do by virtue of iconography. 

But I don't think that should be used as a slight against any character, personally. I also don't have any dog in the "who's the best Batgirl" or "who's the best Robin" debate and on the topic of whether those characters need to exist because I like and enjoy them all. 



> How do you think I feel about Kingdom Come, What's So Funny and Under The Red Hood


Fair enough, although I think the issues with those stories can be subjective depending on your opinion/stance on the characters involved. 

I don't think their actions were as OOC as saying "vaccinations are wrong" would be.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Cass and Damian are different in alot of ways...
1) For instances, a movie with Cass would always be much more action packed and darker than a Damian movie...i mean, Cass was mostly raised in isolation so that she wouldn't comunicate with others, and as a little child Cass used to be shot all over her body by her own father, who also had her facing some of the most dangerous fighters in the world, and basically led her to take a human life...even in the rebirth continuity Cass was forced to watch her father literally killing and slicing people in front of her, a movie with her would IMO be much more violent than a movie with Damian.
2) Also, Bruce-Cass relationship is different from Bruce-Damian, with Damian being his biological son, Bruce is almost "forced" (story-wise) to care for him...with Cass, it was different, Bruce cared for her for who she was, and also because they had alot in common with each other, this was explored in the pre-flashpoint continuity.
3) Cass was meant to become Ra's all ghul perfect Body-Guard, as in their most deadly assassin/fighter...while Damian was meant to become their Leader, as in "the one in charge" (different things).

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> You never know Steph was in YJ2. DC could use these shows to feature / introduce non A list heroes to the GA. I mean it doesn't have to be a big role just cameo's or tiny background roles just to get them in public consciousness. those mini DC shorts should feature these characters who so far are only known to comic readers. That would be a good way to get them off the ground introduced then take from there.


I don't think that you get what i'm saying...they won't appear, because DC won't let them appear, because they don't want them to appear, because they don't like them.

----------


## Carabas

> 3) Cass was meant to become Ra's all ghul perfect Body-Guard, as in their most deadly assassin/fighter...while Damian was meant to become their Leader, as in "the one in charge" (different things).


Strictly speaking, Damian was intended to be nothing more than a replacement body for Ra's to inhabit, if we're going by all the retcons.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah that's a load right there. A character's position as the protagonist is not an automatic defense for them. That's Twilight style of crappy writing. Or are you telling me if some writer wrote a Batman or Superman story decrying vaccination and used a cartoonish straw man to represent their opposition you'd just accept it? 
> 
> Nope. Cass only spoke with extreme difficulty with people she was comfortable with as seen in the ellipses in her speech. What the books didn't do was present her as stupid or slow thinking because of her disability. Her taking orders does not negate that.


Load of what? it's a Batman story, it exists to serve Batman's narrative. The writer is not obligated to serve your personal political beliefs and WOW nice strawman there, I love how we're comparing murderers to vaccination, next you'll be comparing rapists to abortion. If you want a story about a killer being glorified then go read Deathstroke or Punisher, different flavors exist for different people. A Batman story will never result in Batman killing or Batman hugging it out with a killer vigilante. I dont support Batman's code either on a personal level but I dont project my own politics and morality on to him nor do I want writers to do that, I have my substitutes for that. You're way too obsessed with Batman's no kill code, why do you even read stories with Batman? just read Punisher and be done with it.

Means nothing, it's not a disability if it doesn't matter.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> I believe what she means is that since Damian and Cass share similar themes a Cass movie would be considered a rehash of Damian. Especially now that Damian had gotten some out old comic exposure in the animated movies.


In a way, yes, and that could be a reason for them not trying it...but lets separate things, as i've already said, a movie with Cass would always be different from a movie with Damian, and if DC was invested in doing it, it would always be worth it, but they won't, not with the current board of directors they won't.
No matter how many similarites Cass and Damian shared (and it aren't that many, when you think about it = connections to the league of assassins, so does jason todd, and trained since childhood to be assassins, but so have been other characters in Marvel as well, besides Cass > Damian, in what she had to endure, in skills, etc, just much more badass) they wouldn't do a movie with Cass on it, and Cass sharing some similarites with Damian is the least of their reasons.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> How do you think I feel about Kingdom Come, What's So Funny and Under The Red Hood


Weren't the antagonists of What's So Funny based upon characters from works by Warren Ellis and the like, created to deconstruct the superhero genre? What's wrong with the superhero genre throwing shade right back at it? If those works use strawman arguments to point out the flaws in superhero fiction, why couldn't Joe Kelly do the same in reverse? I'm sure Ellis and Millar didn't care, _The Authority_ is a strong enough work that it can handle being poked.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Strictly speaking, Damian was intended to be nothing more than a replacement body for Ra's to inhabit, if we're going by all the retcons.


Yeah, but that on itself could be used as a possible plot for a story, imagine, Ra's disapears, gets abducted, or something...and Damian is declared the new leader of the league of assassins, Damian is threatned that the League would kill Batman, Alfred, and the others, if he didn't step up as the leader of he League, so he agrees while inteending to double-cross them from the start...the enemies of the League learn that the League has a new leader, and attack thinking that they are weaker now without Ra's...enter Cass, saving Damian, who then learns about the child-prodigy...Batman, Nightwing, Bawing and Batwoman then, also join the fight to take down the enemy...There! i just gave you a possible plot, for a new film  :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

> Load of what? it's a Batman story, it exists to serve Batman's narrative. The writer is not obligated to serve your personal political beliefs and WOW nice strawman there, I love how we're comparing murderers to vaccination, next you'll be comparing rapists to abortion. If you want a story about a killer being glorified then go read Deathstroke or Punisher, different flavors exist for different people. A Batman story will never result in Batman killing or Batman hugging it out with a killer vigilante. I dont support Batman's code either on a personal level but I dont project my own politics and morality on to him nor do I want writers to do that, I have my substitutes for that. You're way too obsessed with Batman's no kill code, why do you even read stories with Batman? just read Punisher and be done with it.
> 
> Means nothing, it's not a disability if it doesn't matter.


Yeah a Batman story won't end with him killing. Except when he does. Also, you do know his two most well known love interest are killers right? And that one of his sidekicks is one too?

I get my share of bloodletting from other stories. What I have issue with is the book trying to wring cheap drama out of its franchise restrictions. I have an issue with stories that try to do The Killing Jone all the while missing the point of that story and why Alan Moore wanted it out of continuity. If the writers don't have the balms to kill Joker off them stop writing stories where Bruce is shown as an impotent, ineffectual martyr for clinging to a self-defeating rule. In short, I dislike that the writers portray the heroes as if they were in the Silver Age while using modern age writing for the villains. 

I don't even know what to say to this. It's like I'm speaking to a brick wall. I'm done here.

----------


## Agent Z

> Weren't the antagonists of What's So Funny based upon characters from works by Warren Ellis and the like, created to deconstruct the superhero genre? What's wrong with the superhero genre throwing shade right back at it? If those works use strawman arguments to point out the flaws in superhero fiction, why couldn't Joe Kelly do the same in reverse? I'm sure Ellis and Millar didn't care, _The Authority_ is a strong enough work that it can handle being poked.


I could say the same about Superman.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I could say the same about Superman.


Ok so...what's the issue here? It's ok for the Authority to make strawman arguments against the superhero genre, but not ok for Superman to do the same? And of course, YMMV on whether either stance is a strawman. I don't think "it's wrong to murder people" is all that arrogant of a stance, especially since the Elite weren't eager to get what they'd been dishing out.

----------


## Agent Z

> Ok so...what's the issue here? It's ok for the Authority to make strawman arguments against the superhero genre, but not ok for Superman to do the same? And of course, YMMV on whether either stance is a strawman. I don't think "it's wrong to murder people" is all that arrogant of a stance, especially since the Elite weren't eager to get what they'd been dishing out.


As someone who isn't much of a fan of the Authority, I can't help but see some of the arguments against the superhero genre as being rather on point, if not presented in a somewhat crass manner. Meanwhile,What's So Funny is one of many stories shilling the hero by presenting in-universe critics as unsympathetic straw men. All while tackling an issue that ongoing comic superhero continuities heave neither the will nor intelligence to address.

----------


## Carabas

> Weren't the antagonists of What's So Funny based upon characters from works by Warren Ellis and the like, created to deconstruct the superhero genre?


Not really. They were very badly based on characters from works by Warren Ellis that Joe Kelly didn't like, and told proper superhero stories about real, honest to god superheroes. Who killed people, but that comes with the Wildstorm teritory. 

"What's So Funny" didn't poke The Authority, it poked Joe Kelly's reading comprehension. His Elite acted like (very minor) Authority villains.

----------


## Mr. Mastermind

> Yes, she's appeared in more media forms, but that's a fickle thing. Ask Wally West and John Stewart about that


Wally West has more media appearances than Barry Allen? Wally was in JLU but he was mainly the comic relief and his real name barely mentioned. Barry was the star of the main Flash TV show in the early 90s, the current show and now the movies. Even when they brought Barry back their media appearances were pretty even.

On Cass Cain, I like the appearances I've read of her but prefer Steph. Much better than Babsgirl though.

----------


## Agent Z

> Not really. They were very badly based on characters from works by Warren Ellis that Joe Kelly didn't like, and told proper superhero stories about real, honest to god superheroes. Who killed people, but that comes with the Wildstorm teritory. 
> 
> "What's So Funny" didn't poke The Authority, it poked Joe Kelly's reading comprehension. His Elite acted like (very minor) Authority villains.


Didn't Ellis state the Authority were villains who fought worse villains? 

Not that I'm necessarily defending What's So Funny?

----------


## ed2962

> Ok so...what's the issue here? It's ok for the Authority to make strawman arguments against the superhero genre, but not ok for Superman to do the same? And of course, YMMV on whether either stance is a strawman. I don't think "it's wrong to murder people" is all that arrogant of a stance, especially since the Elite weren't eager to get what they'd been dishing out.


Under Warren Ellis, the Authority really weren't about deconstruction. Ellis has said that he was just trying to do superheroes big dumb summer action movies. There was a higher level of violence, but they otherwise functioned just like the Avengers and the JLA.

It was Mark Millar that brought in the more satirical elements..."We're saving the world no matter how many people we have to kill," The Authority fighting Jack Kirby, fighting the G-8, the violence cranked up to almost cartoon levels.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah a Batman story won't end with him killing. Except when he does. Also, you do know his two most well known love interest are killers right? And that one of his sidekicks is one too?
> 
> I get my share of bloodletting from other stories. What I have issue with is the book trying to wring cheap drama out of its franchise restrictions. I have an issue with stories that try to do The Killing Jone all the while missing the point of that story and why Alan Moore wanted it out of continuity. If the writers don't have the balms to kill Joker off them stop writing stories where Bruce is shown as an impotent, ineffectual martyr for clinging to a self-defeating rule. In short, I dislike that the writers portray the heroes as if they were in the Silver Age while using modern age writing for the villains. 
> 
> I don't even know what to say to this. It's like I'm speaking to a brick wall. I'm done here.


When does he kill? unless you're talking about Burton and Zack Snyder and he actively tries to reform them, he does the same for Joker.
Huh? this makes no sense at all.
I'll repeat it's not a disability if she can communicate just fine, I gave you legit examples of disabilities.

----------


## Agent Z

> When does he kill? unless you're talking about Burton and Zack Snyder and he actively tries to reform them, he does the same for Joker.
> Huh? this makes no sense at all.
> I'll repeat it's not a disability if she can communicate just fine, I gave you legit examples of disabilities.


The Golden Age as written by his original creators. Cosmic Odyssey, any story where he slaughters vampires, sentient robots and other non-human beings. The only people he tries to reform are Harvey, Selina and Talia and the latter two is because he has the hots for them. 

And I've already explained how mutism is a lot more varied than what you're saying and how your understanding of disability is greatly limited. 

Whatever, I think I've said all I need to with this conversation. Have a nice day.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The Golden Age as written by his original creators. Cosmic Odyssey, any story where he slaughters vampires, sentient robots and other non-human beings. The only people he tries to reform are Harvey, Selina and Talia and the latter two is because he has the hots for them. 
> 
> And I've already explained how mutism is a lot more varied than what you're saying and how your understanding of disability is greatly limited. 
> 
> Whatever, I think I've said all I need to with this conversation. Have a nice day.


Vampires don't count. Neither do robots. Batman hasn't directly killed another human in comics since the Golden Age, he is staunchly anti-murder. Even when he associates with killers he strongly discourages them from killing when he's around.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The Golden Age as written by his original creators. Cosmic Odyssey, any story where he slaughters vampires, sentient robots and other non-human beings. The only people he tries to reform are Harvey, Selina and Talia and the latter two is because he has the hots for them. 
> 
> And I've already explained how mutism is a lot more varied than what you're saying and how your understanding of disability is greatly limited. 
> 
> Whatever, I think I've said all I need to with this conversation. Have a nice day.


Lol Golden Age  monsters and aliens aren't human. He's tried to help Joker, Bane,Dent,Freeze, Lane and plenty of other villains. The whole idea of sending them to Arkham is hoping for them to get better.

You can make it varied all you want but Cass never struggles in communication inside the narrative. Ergo if the narrative cant convince me then it doesn't matter because we're dealing with a fictional character not an actual person. Naaratively Cassandra doesn't suffer from any disability, she has mastered her own form of communication which writers try to pass off as superior and is passable when it comes to normal forms.NOT disable.

----------


## Agent Z

Lol yeah they do. 

Please, given what a hell hole Arkham is, he'd have to be a complete moron to think there's any hope of them being cured.

You do realize there's a difference between coping with a disability and it not existing right?

----------


## Carabas

> Vampires don't count. Neither do robots. Batman hasn't directly killed another human in comics since the Golden Age, he is staunchly anti-murder. Even when he associates with killers he strongly discourages them from killing when he's around.


He murdered the KGBeast with premeditation.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Lol yeah they do. 
> 
> Please, given what a hell hole Arkham is, he'd have to be a complete moron to think there's any hope of them being cured.
> 
> You do realize there's a difference between coping with a disability and it not existing right?


Monsters and vampires are human?
That's what the narrative says, it's an iconic location that is fertile ground for more stories.
If Cass writers were interested in writing her interacting with normal people and doing normal and mundane things they could pick on her disability which they sparingly did in her first series then maybe the disability angle could work. As it stands though for a very long time Cass writers have been more interested in martial arts and ass kicking to care about any mutism and normality.

----------


## Agent Z

Human, no. Snetient, yes. or do you think humans are the only sentient creatures?

This is like saying Babs wasn't crippled because the writers didn't mention it every time even when we could clearly see it. Again, getting around a disability does not mean it does not exist. Babs' paralysis wasn't the subject of all her stories but it was still there. And the same goes for Cass' mutism.

----------


## Rise

Let's see.. :Big Grin: 

G.C.P.D are more interesting than the batfamily and I wish Tec was about them instead.

I don't mind the batfamily, but I wish they weren't full of teenagers and are actually older.

No one has the right to blame Batman for what happened to Damian, Stephanie and Tim because it's actually their fault what happened to them.

Clayface is the only good thing about Tynion's Tec and Stephanie is one of the many bad things about it.

----------


## Godlike13

> Human, no. Snetient, yes. or do you think humans are the only sentient creatures?
> 
> This is like saying Babs wasn't crippled because the writers didn't mention it every time even when we could clearly see it. Again, getting around a disability does not mean it does not exist. Babs' paralysis wasn't the subject of all her stories but it was still there. And the same goes for Cass' mutism.


Writers didn't have to mention Babs was crippled because readers could see it, and it had an actual meaningful impact on pretty much every thing the character did, or could not do, whether they mentioned it or not. Its more like trying to call the current Babs disabled because she has an implant that allows for her to walk. Even though in the end she's able to walk around just fine and one can't really tell the difference. Cass' mutism has to be mention otherwise no one would know. It never really hindered the character in a meaningful way, especially as a superhero. It more so acted as a means to invoke sympathy, and as soon as it might have become inconvenient they hand waved it away. And its just flat out not there with the current Cass, who understands speech and communicants fine, and more so just uses words sparingly.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Human, no. Snetient, yes. or do you think humans are the only sentient creatures?
> 
> This is like saying Babs wasn't crippled because the writers didn't mention it every time even when we could clearly see it. Again, getting around a disability does not mean it does not exist. Babs' paralysis wasn't the subject of all her stories but it was still there. And the same goes for Cass' mutism.


I mentioned human not sentinent, same goes for Batman and besides Bacteria are also sentinent creatures so is that chicken you eat for lunch, in short if it aint human it dont matter in the story unless the writer wants it to matter.
Babs spent her time unable to get out in to the field despite being trained to do simply because of her disability, it worked in the narrative. Cassandra stories were never interested in that, or at least lost interest with in the first few issues of her solo. Maybe you're the one who hasn't read Cass stories.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Let's see..
> 
> G.C.P.D are more interesting than the batfamily and I wish Tec was about them instead.
> 
> I don't mind the batfamily, but I wish they weren't full of teenagers and are actually older.
> 
> No one has the right to blame Batman for what happened to Damian, Stephanie and Tim because it's actually their fault what happened to them.
> 
> Clayface is the only good thing about Tynion's Tec and Stephanie is one of the many bad things about it.


I dont think anyone blames Batman for what happened to Damian though, even Damian doesn't blame him, Batman blamed himself till Dick showed him otherwise.

----------


## Godlike13

> I dont think anyone blames Batman for what happened to Damian though, even Damian doesn't blame him, Batman blamed himself till Dick showed him otherwise.


I actually thought Dick, if anybody, should have blamed himself. Not that he's to blame, but i think it would have made sense for his character to do so, even if just a little, given that he was the one that put the R on him and he was pretty much right there when it happened.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Lol yeah they do. 
> 
> Please, given what a hell hole Arkham is, he'd have to be a complete moron to think there's any hope of them being cured.


What else can one do with vampires? They're not technically alive to begin with, and *we* are their food of choice. They are not bound by human laws, cannot be reformed, and are basically a plague outbreak when they spread. There's no other option but to wipe them out. 

Bruce isn't the one who sends them to Arkham, Gotham's legal system does. The Arkham games imply that he donates money to the facilities to improve them but the money gets pocketed elsewhere. Unless you want him to start killing the mentally ill, what happens to the villains after he stops and apprehends them is out of his hands.

----------


## Aioros22

> Vampires don't count. Neither do robots. Batman hasn't directly killed another human in comics since the Golden Age, he is staunchly anti-murder. Even when he associates with killers he strongly discourages them from killing when he's around.


How many times has Batman used a gun/shot someone, since the Golden Age?

Point to take: he`s done it since the Golden Age. What may vary is the intent or circumstance.

----------


## Aioros22

> He murdered the KGBeast with premeditation.


I enjoy how aptly this is not mentioned again in the conversation. He also let Deacon Blackfire be tore apart by the mob after beating him up. 

Robots don`t count? Tell that to Magnus Robot Figther  :Cool:

----------


## byrd156

> I enjoy how aptly this is not mentioned again in the conversation. He also let Deacon Blackfire be tore apart by the mob after beating him up. 
> 
> Robots don`t count? Tell that to Magnus Robot Figther


Which was retconned so does it really count?

----------


## Aioros22

If the point of the conversation was to only name things that are currently in cuntinuity then "Golden Age where he used to use guns and shot criminals" probably wouldn`t have been brought up.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> What else can one do with vampires? They're not technically alive to begin with, and *we* are their food of choice. They are not bound by human laws, cannot be reformed, and are basically a plague outbreak when they spread. There's no other option but to wipe them out.


That is entirely dependent on the rules of the story. There are many stories in which vampires are redeemable and reasonable. It always depends on the rules of vampirism, which, like the rules for magic, vary wildly from one writer to another. 

If vampires absolutely, positively, MUST consume blood from living human beings, then yeah. That makes them very hard to reason with. Under those circumstances, asking them for peace is essentially asking them to agree to starve. If they can survive on animal blood or some kind of scientific replacement? Then yes, they may be willing to make some sacrifices in order to survive. 

If vampires are truly soulless, evil monsters and there is no humanity in them to which one can appeal? Then yeah, they're probably irredeemable. If, on the other hand, they retain any semblance of their original humanity, then it's a simple matter of convincing them that there are other, less monstrous, ways for them to survive. 

This is just another thing that Marvel and DC should really think about doing: establishing some VERY firm rules about how certain things work in their universes. If you have magic, how does it work? If vampires exist, how do THEY work? Once you have these rules established, Editorial's job is to see to it that those rules are enforced in every book. Because right now? There have been DC stories with truly evil and inhuman vampires, for whom wiping them out is the only option, and there have been stories in which vampires are essentially very ill people who still cling to their humanity and would happily embrace another option if it were offered. 

Saying "Batman is ALWAYS okay with killing vampires" is only a valid statement if vampires are pretty much universally evil and irredeemable. If they are more complex than that? Then he DOES have other options than just "Slaughter them like dogs." There are heroic vampires in the DCU. Should he kill them?

----------


## Frontier

Didn't Batman team-up with the_ I, Vampire_ guy?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Didn't Batman team-up with the_ I, Vampire_ guy?


I believe he did. And he and Looker have been on the Outsiders together, if memory serves me.

----------


## Frontier

> I believe he did. And he and Looker have been on the Outsiders together, if memory serves me.


True, but I think that stretches to long before Looker became a vampire...

----------


## Carabas

> I enjoy how aptly this is not mentioned again in the conversation. He also let Deacon Blackfire be tore apart by the mob after beating him up.


Pretty sure Batman also killed someone when he was part of Blackfire's cult.

Jim Starlin's Batman had a short career, but he managed to rack up an impressive body count.

----------


## Agent Z

> What else can one do with vampires? They're not technically alive to begin with, and *we* are their food of choice. *They are not bound by human laws, cannot be reformed, and are basically a plague outbreak when they spread. There's no other option but to wipe them out.* 
> 
> Bruce isn't the one who sends them to Arkham, Gotham's legal system does. The Arkham games imply that he donates money to the facilities to improve them but the money gets pocketed elsewhere. Unless you want him to start killing the mentally ill, what happens to the villains after he stops and apprehends them is out of his hands.


Replace vampires with Arkham Rogues and the argument wouldn't be any different.




> That is entirely dependent on the rules of the story. There are many stories in which vampires are redeemable and reasonable. It always depends on the rules of vampirism, which, like the rules for magic, vary wildly from one writer to another. 
> 
> If vampires absolutely, positively, MUST consume blood from living human beings, then yeah. That makes them very hard to reason with. Under those circumstances, asking them for peace is essentially asking them to agree to starve. If they can survive on animal blood or some kind of scientific replacement? Then yes, they may be willing to make some sacrifices in order to survive. 
> 
> If vampires are truly soulless, evil monsters and there is no humanity in them to which one can appeal? Then yeah, they're probably irredeemable. If, on the other hand, they retain any semblance of their original humanity, then it's a simple matter of convincing them that there are other, less monstrous, ways for them to survive. 
> 
> This is just another thing that Marvel and DC should really think about doing: establishing some VERY firm rules about how certain things work in their universes. If you have magic, how does it work? If vampires exist, how do THEY work? Once you have these rules established, Editorial's job is to see to it that those rules are enforced in every book. Because right now? There have been DC stories with truly evil and inhuman vampires, for whom wiping them out is the only option, and there have been stories in which vampires are essentially very ill people who still cling to their humanity and would happily embrace another option if it were offered. 
> 
> Saying "Batman is ALWAYS okay with killing vampires" is only a valid statement if vampires are pretty much universally evil and irredeemable. If they are more complex than that? Then he DOES have other options than just "Slaughter them like dogs." There are heroic vampires in the DCU. Should he kill them?


Hell, one pf the stories that features Batman killing vamps even shows some of them are capable of managing their bloodlust and in general are no more Always Chaotic Evil than humans. It wouldn't surprise me if the Joker alone has a higher body count than most vampires in the DCU who at least have the excuse of needing blood to survive.

----------


## Frontier

> Replace vampires with Arkham Rogues and the argument wouldn't be any different.


Well, I wouldn't say they're not bound by human laws since they go to jail so often and have actual criminal records (most don't even have powers)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Agent Z

> Well, I wouldn't say they're not bound by human laws since they go to jail so often and have actual criminal records (most don't even have powers) .


No one's treated jails in superhero universe ever since "clever" writers started pointing out how ineffective they are in universe.

----------


## Frontier

> No one's treated jails in superhero universe ever since "clever" writers started pointing out how ineffective they are in universe.


But they still exist, and criminals are still sent there, as one would expect.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Much as we might complain about the excessive violence Frank Miller had Batman commit and the all-consuming grimness he brought to the franchise, I think he was the one who really made the 'no-killing' rule such a big deal.  I can't think of too many stories from before DKR where it was an issue.  The late 80s is when writers really began exploring it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

@Vanguard-01.

I confess the only real exposure I have to DCU vampires is Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run, where they seemed like soulless abominations. But then I, Vampyre kind of screws that up. 

DC really needs to sort out the ground rules for that. Of course, outside of Angel, I'm not wild about vampire redemption stories. I like them to actually be evil and scary, so reforming vampires doesn't really appeal to me. 




> Replace vampires with Arkham Rogues and the argument wouldn't be any different.


Except no, because they're still human and protected by the law, and if Batman started putting stakes in their hearts Gordon wouldn't look the other way for him anymore and would be determined to throw him in Arkham himself.

I'm not really getting your stance here. You seem to have a problem with Batman taking the law into his own hands, but you also want him to just start killing criminals, some of whom are genuinely mentally ill? Or taking them away from the law and throwing them into a more secure facility of his own making or something? Because that sounds way worse than what he does already.

----------


## Atlanta96

So what if he kills vampires? He can kill as many as he wants, witches too. Burn through the witches and slam them in the back of his Batmobile!  :Smile:

----------


## Vanguard-01

> @Vanguard-01.
> 
> I confess the only real exposure I have to DCU vampires is Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run, where they seemed like soulless abominations. But then I, Vampyre kind of screws that up. 
> 
> DC really needs to sort out the ground rules for that. Of course, outside of Angel, I'm not wild about vampire redemption stories. I like them to actually be evil and scary, so reforming vampires doesn't really appeal to me.


Oh, same here, for the most part. I like Angel because he was literally a "one in a million" kind of scenario. But I'm not a fan of vampires who can just "decide" not to feed on people and basically keep their human lives as if nothing changed. 

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Vampire: The Masquerade, and Vampire: The Requiem tabletop role playing games. In those games, all vampires have a "beast" that lives inside them. The Beast is this animalistic force that is basically the id run amok. In the games, your choices determine your moral capability. If you give in to your Beast and do horrible, monstrous things? You will become a horrible, monstrous vampire. If you fight the Beast and try to force yourself to live a more moral life? You retain a lot of your humanity.........but the Beast is still always there, waiting for it's chance to push you into doing something horrible.




> So what if he kills vampires? He can kill as many as he wants, witches too. Burn through the witches and slam them in the back of his Batmobile!


Ahem! 

Zatanna_Zatara_(Injustice_The_Regime)_003.jpg

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Carabas

> But they still exist, and criminals are still sent there, as one would expect.


When criminals can get out of prison whenever they feel like, then they are not in any way at all bound by human laws.

----------


## Frontier

> Ahem! 
> 
> Zatanna_Zatara_(Injustice_The_Regime)_003.jpg


This reminds me that I'd be down for seeing them give a real shot at a Batman/Zatanna romance in the comics or other media. 

I doubt it would work long-term anymore then Zee and Constantine do, but I'd like to see it explored (and it would probably mean more Zatanna appearances, which would be awesome).

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This reminds me that I'd be down for seeing them give a real shot at a Batman/Zatanna romance in the comics or other media. 
> 
> I doubt it would work long-term anymore then Zee and Constantine do, but I'd like to see it explored (and it would probably mean more Zatanna appearances, which would be awesome).


Yeah, I doubt it would last long, like ALL of Batman's romances. As long as Batman as a tortured soul, LIVING his PTSD 24/7 is the Batman that sells comics, I just don't see how ANY romance of his can last long. Heck, a bright and positive woman like Zee would probably be driven away once she got a real look at how deep his pain (and his need for it) goes. 

Besides isn't Zee like the closest thing Bruce has to a sister? It would be pretty weird for the both of them. Although, that hasn't stopped Barry and Iris on the CW!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, I doubt it would last long, like ALL of Batman's romances. As long as Batman as a tortured soul, LIVING his PTSD 24/7 is the Batman that sells comics, I just don't see how ANY romance of his can last long. Heck, a bright and positive woman like Zee would probably be driven away once she got a real look at how deep his pain (and his need for it) goes. 
> 
> Besides isn't Zee like the closest thing Bruce has to a sister? It would be pretty weird for the both of them. Although, that hasn't stopped Barry and Iris on the CW!


Kate Kane is probably the closest thing Bruce has to a sister right now. 

Depending on the continuity, they know each other as kids or in their youth but not to the degree where you would expect them to have a deep sibling dynamic (especially considering the romantic feelings involved during those periods). 

I think it would be fun to see explored if a writer was willing to try it and see how it works, maybe in a more lighter period in Bruce's life. It might have shades of Bruce's dynamic with Catwoman, only he doesn't have to worry about what side of the law Zatanna is on, but maybe with a little more...razzle dazzle involved.

Though I think Paul Dini is the only one who'd be willing to write it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Agent Z

> @Vanguard-01.
> 
> I confess the only real exposure I have to DCU vampires is Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run, where they seemed like soulless abominations. But then I, Vampyre kind of screws that up. 
> 
> DC really needs to sort out the ground rules for that. Of course, outside of Angel, I'm not wild about vampire redemption stories. I like them to actually be evil and scary, so reforming vampires doesn't really appeal to me. 
> 
> 
> 
> Except no, because they're still human and protected by the law, and if Batman started putting stakes in their hearts Gordon wouldn't look the other way for him anymore and would be determined to throw him in Arkham himself.
> ...


I doubt they'd have an issue with it. The only time people turn on superheroes is when they've been thought to have killed innocent or as is the case in What's So Funny when they don't use lethal force on criminals who should have gotten the chair anyway. 

Please like any of these guys is anything resembling a genuine depiction of mental illness. 

I want him to act with some goddamb consistency. I want him to stop prattling on about the value of life while tossing frag grenades and knives everywhere, packing his vehicles with more heat than Texas Tailgate, and only applying his one rule to non human enemies all because writers have s hard on for Joker dialogues the size of the Washington Monument.

----------


## Carabas

> @Vanguard-01.
> 
> I confess the only real exposure I have to DCU vampires is Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run, where they seemed like soulless abominations. But then I, Vampyre kind of screws that up. 
> 
> DC really needs to sort out the ground rules for that. Of course, outside of Angel, I'm not wild about vampire redemption stories. I like them to actually be evil and scary, so reforming vampires doesn't really appeal to me.


I, Vampire predates Alan Moore on Swamp Thing by a year.

----------


## JamesC

Well I don't know how controversial this is but I don't think there should be a Batgirl. It should be Batman and Robin with Nightwing over in Bludhaven and able to pop back if need be. 
I think Batgirl seems too much like a marketing niche being filled. I'd be happy with Robin being female but the mantle of Batgirl seems too much like the (to paraphrase Dr Evil) Diet Coke version of Batman.
I'd much rather see a female hero who doesn't rely on the reflected glory of the Bat mantle (haven't read Mother Panic yet but heard it's pretty good). 
None of this is to say that writers haven't done a good job with the character in the past but going forward I'd rather see things move in a different direction.

----------


## Caivu

> I'd much rather see a female hero who doesn't rely on the reflected glory of the Bat mantle (haven't read Mother Panic yet but heard it's pretty good).


Mother Panic is a good series and I'd recommend it, but she's not a hero. Not right now, anyway.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I doubt they'd have an issue with it. The only time people turn on superheroes is when they've been thought to have killed innocent or as is the case in What's So Funny when they don't use lethal force on criminals who should have gotten the chair anyway. 
> 
> Please like any of these guys is anything resembling a genuine depiction of mental illness. 
> 
> I want him to act with some goddamb consistency. I want him to stop prattling on about the value of life while tossing frag grenades and knives everywhere, packing his vehicles with more heat than Texas Tailgate, and only applying his one rule to non human enemies all because writers have s hard on for Joker dialogues the size of the Washington Monument.


They would totally have an issue with it. Every time the GCPD believes Batman finally snapped and started killing people they start gunning for him pretty hard until he clears his name. 

The majority outside of Harvey and Wesker don't, but there have been in-universe explanations such as the corrupt lawyers twisting the legal system to get the rogues into the more lax Arkham Asylum regardless of whether they should be there or not. The idea of a story to depict actual mentally ill people being placed in the same facility as these remorseless killers has some potential

He kind of has been acting with consistency, at least of late. With DC going through yet another continuity shake up with Rebirth, who knows if those previous instances are even canon anymore? Their reception by fans and other writers were pretty dubious anyway so that's why they get swept under the rug, because nobody wants to pay money to dwell on it. People are letting Jason off the hook for gunning down two hospital security guards in Morrison's run for the same reason. 

Outside of BvS, has the Batmobile actually had that much fire power and have we actually seen Batman _using_ it to kill people? How often does he encounter non-human enemies in his title? 




> I, Vampire predates Alan Moore on Swamp Thing by a year.


I should have worded it better: I meant I, Vampyre messes up my assumption that vampires in the DCU are soulless, not anything to do with either work themselves. It would be nice if DC picked a depiction of vampires and stuck with it.

----------


## Carabas

> I should have worded it better: I meant I, Vampyre messes up my assumption that vampires in the DCU are soulless, not anything to do with either work themselves. It would be nice if DC picked a depiction of vampires and stuck with it.


I think they're fairly consistant in that no DCU vampire is soulles, but that most of them are evil.

----------


## Mutant God

Batman should lock up Bat-Mite in Arkham Asylum because hes a threat to reality...lol

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> He murdered the KGBeast with premeditation.


Russians from the 80s weren't really people. Just dirty commies!

*cough*

----------


## Vanguard-01

Okay! Controversial opinion time!

Bruce's anti-Justice League suits are stupid, and worse, they make HIM look stupid. This is a guy who is supposed to be a genius. What kind of genius devises plans to take down beings who could crush him like a bug that involve him standing right in front of them, waiting for them to come at him with all their overwhelming power? Sure, that suit let's him punch hard enough to hurt Superman (somehow,) and that armor protects him from punches from Superman (somehow.) What it DOESN'T do is allow him to move and react at super-speed. So he can take some punches? Great! Too bad an out-of-control Superman should be able to land about a thousand punches before Bruce even thinks about throwing one. 

The last thing in the world Bruce should want to do when fighting such powerful foes is be anywhere near their line of fire. He needs to take down Superman? Honestly? His first idea should always be to round up Wonder Woman, Shazam, Martian Manhunter and/or anyone else he believes has a chance at subduing him. Failing that? His plans should involve attacks on Clark that do not give him the option of counterattacking. Instead of putting on a suit and trying to kickbox with a guy who can shatter mountains he should attack indirectly. How about he lures Superman to a pre-determined location, activates some gravity trap to hold him in place, and then shoots a green Kryptonite laser from an orbiting satellite down at him. He can do all of that from a lead-lined underground bunker that even Superman has never been to. Bingo. One downed Superman and ZERO chance of Batman getting his head ripped off. 

If Batman has to take down Superman or any other major characters, putting on a suit of power armor and going out to punch him/her into submission should be the absolute LAST thing he tries. A desperation maneuver when all other plans have failed. 

(Yes, before anyone asks, this applies to Lex Luthor and other similar characters just as much.)

----------


## JamesC

^^Completely agree with the above. It always makes me sigh when this sort of thing happens.

With the case of Superman, it just about makes sense in DKR as Batman basically challenges Supes to fight him like a man while wearing armour just about powerful enough to make Superman feel it. The actual plan is to distract him enough that Green Arrow can shoot him with a Kryptonite arrow. Not the best plan but it sort of makes sense.

In the case of Superman going off the rails you pretty much have two chances - Kryptonite or magic (I've said on another thread, an enchanted Batsuit would make more sense than an armoured one).

----------


## Agent Z

> They would totally have an issue with it. Every time the GCPD believes Batman finally snapped and started killing people they start gunning for him pretty hard until he clears his name. 
> 
> The majority outside of Harvey and Wesker don't, but there have been in-universe explanations such as the corrupt lawyers twisting the legal system to get the rogues into the more lax Arkham Asylum regardless of whether they should be there or not. The idea of a story to depict actual mentally ill people being placed in the same facility as these remorseless killers has some potential
> 
> He kind of has been acting with consistency, at least of late. With DC going through yet another continuity shake up with Rebirth, who knows if those previous instances are even canon anymore? Their reception by fans and other writers were pretty dubious anyway so that's why they get swept under the rug, because nobody wants to pay money to dwell on it. People are letting Jason off the hook for gunning down two hospital security guards in Morrison's run for the same reason. 
> 
> Outside of BvS, has the Batmobile actually had that much fire power and have we actually seen Batman _using_ it to kill people? How often does he encounter non-human enemies in his title? 
> 
> 
> ...


Realistically the GCPD shouldn't let Bruce get away with any of the crap he pulls if only for the bad publicity.

And any such story, if it were being remotely respectful, would also do well to point out that actual mentally ill people are nothing like the Gotham Rogues. Until such a story is done - and let's face it the writers only give a crap about the costumed killers - maybe the writers should catch up with the 21st Century and quit acting like these guys are accurate depictions of the mentally ill. 

It's been shown as having heavy artillery since Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" especially in stories like "The Cult". And I have yet to see a non-lethal use of hellfire missiles hence my point. If you want to give the idea Batman is non-lethal don't have him use lethal weapons.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Realistically the GCPD shouldn't let Bruce get away with any of the crap he pulls if only for the bad publicity.
> 
> And any such story, if it were being remotely respectful, would also do well to point out that actual mentally ill people are nothing like the Gotham Rogues. Until such a story is done - and let's face it the writers only give a crap about the costumed killers - maybe the writers should catch up with the 21st Century and quit acting like these guys are accurate depictions of the mentally ill. 
> 
> It's been shown as having heavy artillery since Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" especially in stories like "The Cult". And I have yet to see a non-lethal use of hellfire missiles hence my point. If you want to give the idea Batman is non-lethal don't have him use lethal weapons.


Realistically, none of this is happening to begin with. We're reading Batman comics. Everybody knows the character is not realistic in the slightest and _nobody cares_. 

That would be lovely. Unfortunately, Arkham Asylum is way too cool of a gothic, creepy setting that I can understand them not wanting to get away with sticking the villains in there, even if the representation is irksome in many ways.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

Bruce Wayne as a playboy celebrity, sometimes even a world wide one, is an unnecessary leftover from the early pulp days of Batman and both could and should easily be discarded. It doesn't add much to the mythos except a bunch of strain on his secret identity, and isn't even necessary from a pseudo-realistic standpoint. I mean, even if he's a well known socialite/party animal in Gotham, it doesn't mean that people outside of those fairly small circles, let alone the city or the country, would have ever heard his name or seen his picture.

----------


## Godlike13

He's well known or a celebrity because he's super rich, not because he's a socialite. When your super rich, like one of the richest people in the world, people know who you are.

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce Wayne as a playboy celebrity, sometimes even a world wide one, is an unnecessary leftover from the early pulp days of Batman and both could and should easily be discarded.


In his early days Bruce was actually not such a big celebrity and not so super rich, he was just "normal rich" and the Waynes were not "Gothams first family" or something like that.
Thats something that started imo in the Bronze Age, a than got more and more pushed.

Even Wayne Manor was originally a normal house that Bruce bought after he became Batman.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> He's well known or a celebrity because he's super rich, not because he's a socialite. When your super rich, like one of the richest people in the world, people know who you are.


Does he have to be one of the richest people in the world though? There were (apparently) 1080 dollar billionaires in the world last year, I bet not all of them are world famous celebrities.




> In his early days Bruce was actually not such a big celebrity and not so super rich, he was just "normal rich" and the Waynes were not "Gothams first family" or something like that.
> Thats something that started imo in the Bronze Age, a than got more and more pushed.
> 
> Even Wayne Manor was originally a normal house that Bruce bought after he became Batman.


I see. The juxtaposition of white aristocracy and down and dirty crimefighting seem very pulp-era trope to me, but I do believe you when you say that most of those elements were emphasized much later.

----------


## Godlike13

> Does he have to be one of the richest people in the world though? There were (apparently) 1080 dollar billionaires in the world last year, I bet not all of them are world famous celebrities.


How many of them share their name with a huge conglomerate. Does he have to be one of the richest people in the world, i don't know, but with Wayne Enterprises and how rich they present him to be in DC's world, it makes sense for him to be famous.

----------


## Mutant God

> maybe the writers should catch up with the 21st Century and quit acting like these guys are accurate depictions of the mentally ill.


Whos saying that they are accurate depictions? I thought they were suppose to be exaggerations of their specific illness or their gimmick/theme is based off of the illness they have?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Whos saying that they are accurate depictions? I thought they were suppose to be exaggerations of their specific illness or their gimmick/theme is based off of the illness they have?


Yeah, the average reader is smart enough to realize that people like Harvey Dent and the Riddler don't actually exist. Just like we're smart enough to realize that a teenage boy in tights wouldn't make a very effective crimefighter in real life. Or a pre-teen. Even little kids can tell that the Joker is a work of fiction.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Realistically the GCPD shouldn't let Bruce get away with any of the crap he pulls if only for the bad publicity.
> 
> And any such story, if it were being remotely respectful, would also do well to point out that actual mentally ill people are nothing like the Gotham Rogues. Until such a story is done - and let's face it the writers only give a crap about the costumed killers - maybe the writers should catch up with the 21st Century and quit acting like these guys are accurate depictions of the mentally ill. 
> 
> It's been shown as having heavy artillery since Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" especially in stories like "The Cult". And I have yet to see a non-lethal use of hellfire missiles hence my point. If you want to give the idea Batman is non-lethal don't have him use lethal weapons.


It's fiction
It's fiction
It's fiction

----------


## Agent Z

> It's fiction
> It's fiction
> It's fiction


I trust you'll keep this in mind next time you go on a tirade against the DCEU's version of Batman

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I trust you'll keep this in mind next time you go on a tirade against the DCEU's version of Batman


I never accuse that Batman of being a crap character because he ragdolls grown men despite being just human himself. I call him a crap character because that's what he is. Even if ignore his killings he's still crap.

----------


## Agent Z

> I never accuse that Batman of being a crap character because he ragdolls grown men despite being just human himself. I call him a crap character because that's what he is. Even if ignore his killings he's still crap.


Good for you. You have your standards by how I judge characters and I have mine.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Good for you. You have your standards by how I judge characters and I have mine.


Your standards involve injecting personal politics and wish fulfiilment though

----------


## Agent Z

> Your standards involve injecting personal politics and wish fulfiilment though


Everyone brings their own personal politics to judging a story. One that's aimed towards an older audience any way. 

And this _is_ a controversial opinions thread, is it not?

----------


## Aahz

> Also, for the record? Cassandra IS mute. She is selectively mute, which means she only speaks around those she is comfortable with or does not speak at all, but by choice.


I think that they handled that better with Strix than with Cass.

And in in the new 52, it is afaik not really defined how much she can speak, understand and read. But unlike the original version she was able to understand normal language and to speak from the beginning.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Whos saying that they are accurate depictions? I thought they were suppose to be exaggerations of their specific illness or their gimmick/theme is based off of the illness they have?


I think the problem is how they depict the characters getting away with countless crimes by pleading insanity. Batman is hardly the only offender there, but it does treat mental illness as a 'get out of jail free' card, when in reality it's anything but.

----------


## Mutant God

> I think the problem is how they depict the characters getting away with countless crimes by pleading insanity. Batman is hardly the only offender there, but it does treat mental illness as a *'get out of jail free' card*, when in reality it's anything but.


But remember the villain Great White, corrupt bussiness man who plead insanity and then became insane after a few days in Arkham. If your a criminal who pleads insanity and doesn't mind going to Arkham then they must be insane to go to a place that is 10x more dangerous, with both killers and metahumans, and unpredicitable then Blackgate. Plus I think with some doctors and Hugo Strange, they are fascinated with these cases of extreme insanity and want to further study them and compare them with "normal" insanity so they lower the bar on the entry level and get as many patients as they can. Also some of them are mobsters so they probably bribed people into getting their henchmen into the same place they are.

----------


## FishyZombie

Bruce should be harsher with Selina
Dick needs to change his name to "Rick," I don't think anyone as young as he's supposed to be still goes wth that nickname. 
Tim is a good character but right now he's an unfortunate case of how legacy can make a character redundant. Everything about him is either derivative of Dick or got ended up being copied by the others. 
Besides the dark knight trilogy, I don't really like Lucious Fox being responsible for the gadgets.
I think some villains in  Arkham should genuinely get rehabilitated. I'd feel a lot better about Arkham if it wasn't completely useless.
New 52 was the best batsuit.
Arkham Origins gets too much hate.

----------


## byrd156

> Bruce should be harsher with Selina
> Dick needs to change his name to "Rick," I don't think anyone as young as he's supposed to be still goes wth that nickname. 
> Tim is a good character but right now he's an unfortunate case of how legacy can make a character redundant. Everything about him is either derivative of Dick or got ended up being copied by the others. 
> Besides the dark knight trilogy, I don't really like Lucious Fox being responsible for the gadgets.
> I think some villains in  Arkham should genuinely get rehabilitated. I'd feel a lot better about Arkham if it wasn't completely useless.
> New 52 was the best batsuit.
> Arkham Origins gets too much hate.


What is wrong with Dick?

----------


## lucius121

Whenever i read these threads it's funny how most of the controversial opinions are not controversial at all and go with the general consensus on the forum. It's not just on the Bat forum though it's in all these threads, it kinda of similar to Trump supporters thinking their rebels because they have non PC views, if the majority of the population agree with you that not controversial it's the opposite. 

Anyway my controversial views:

1. Harley Quinn is one of the best character DC have created in the last 30 years.
2. There are too many Robins
3. The bat family is full enough, writers need to stop creating new characters just to pad their egos.
4. I think rather than creating new villains DC needs to work on creating new more compelling villains.

----------


## Westbats

1.  I like a big supporting cast in titles; _We Are Robin_, Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr's _Batgirl_,Seeley's _Nightwing_.  It makes the world feel big, even if the world is just a single city.
2.  I hope the characters from _We Are Robin_ make a return.  Duke is awesome, and he works well of of the rest of the Batfamily, I'd like to see how he'd bounce off of the Robin Crew after his training with Bruce.
3.  The Row siblings are woefully underdeveloped and they could be major characters if the right writer worked on expanding their characters.  We could make people want Harper back as Bluebird.

----------


## rev516

My opinions:

1. Duke and all of Snyder's OC's are useless. They add nothing to the mythos and are boring. Kill them off or send them away.

2. Zatanna and Bruce should be an item. I like Batcat but I'm tired of it at this point. 

3. There are way too many vigilantes in Gotham. Trim the herd down. It should be only Bruce and Damian in Gotham. It doesn't make sense if there's five plus heroes in Gotham and crime is STILL rampant.

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

1. Dick Grayson should've been the Robin to die, not Jason Todd. 

2. Barbara Gordon was a much better character when she was disabled, returning her to the Batgirl role is a step-down. 

3. Damien Wayne is a boring, dull and uninteresting character that ages Batman too much(Batman should not have any offspring imo)

----------


## Agent Z

> My opinions:
> 
> 1. Duke and all of Snyder's OC's are useless. They add nothing to the mythos and are boring. Kill them off or send them away.
> 
> 2. Zatanna and Bruce should be an item. I like Batcat but I'm tired of it at this point. 
> 
> 3. There are way too many vigilantes in Gotham. Trim the herd down. It should be only Bruce and Damian in Gotham. It doesn't make sense if there's five plus heroes in Gotham and crime is STILL rampant.


Why does anyone think the number of vigilantes in Gotham, a city that is corrupt on virtually every level, reduce crime in the city? The number of people fighting crime has never affected its occurrence. That's like saying there should be no supervillains with all the heroes running around

----------


## millernumber1

> Why does anyone think the number of vigilantes in Gotham, a city that is corrupt on virtually every level, reduce crime in the city? The number of people fighting crime has never affected its occurrence. That's like saying there should be no supervillains with all the heroes running around


Well, the problem is that DC will never let Batman actually win. It's a structural problem, since realistically, Batman would either win or lose eventually.

----------


## Frontier

It's the Never-Ending Battle...

----------


## phantom1592

I don't see how Zatanna and Batman would ever be an item. He's spent decades doing every kind of training possible to hone himself into a perfect crimefighting machine... She waves her hand and says something backwards and accomplishes anything that pops into her head.  Best case scenario he would resent her for having it so easy... worst case scenario he'd consider a superman level threat.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't see how Zatanna and Batman would ever be an item. He's spent decades doing every kind of training possible to hone himself into a perfect crimefighting machine... She waves her hand and says something backwards and accomplishes anything that pops into her head.  Best case scenario he would resent her for having it so easy... worst case scenario he'd consider a superman level threat.


She "just waves her hand" = spent her childhood being trained to do it. 

Not so controversial now?

----------


## Aioros22

> Why does anyone think the number of vigilantes in Gotham, a city that is corrupt on virtually every level, reduce crime in the city? The number of people fighting crime has never affected its occurrence. That's like saying there should be no supervillains with all the heroes running around


You mean the tell me Batman was wrong on the whole premise of Batman:Inc? Batman is always right, man. 

That said, I raise your game. Crime is indeed lower by having the others there. But "crime" on a general sense isn`t the Joker.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

> What is wrong with Dick?


The character?  Nothing really.

The nickname "Dick"?  Mostly that is far more well-known as slang for "penis".  And more importantly, IRL, no Richard under the age of 50 goes by Dick anymore, mainly because of the slang.  The youngest Richard I know who actually still goes by Dick is over 55 years old.  

I'd fully support DC if they started having young Richard Grayson going by Rick across all media.

He looks more like a "Rick" anyway.

----------


## Aahz

> This little retcon also means that Bruce was going to marry his widowed sister-in-law, which is at least a little wierd.


If you are referring in Kathy Kane, she was actually married to Bruce Uncle, which makes this ever more wierd imo.

I would like in general to see a family tree for the Wayne/Kane Family, who for example are Bette's parents? And why are Kate and her Father jewish?

----------


## Frontier

> I don't see how Zatanna and Batman would ever be an item. He's spent decades doing every kind of training possible to hone himself into a perfect crimefighting machine... She waves her hand and says something backwards and accomplishes anything that pops into her head.  Best case scenario he would resent her for having it so easy... worst case scenario he'd consider a superman level threat.


Well, depending on the continuity, he trained with the Zatara's to master his escape artist skills so he probably owes a lot to them and is already close to Zee before he even becomes Batman. 

And I personally don't really see Batman resenting someone for having powers, which ostensibly makes it easier for them to fight crime, so long as they're working towards the same goal of justice as he is. 

I also think he would understand, maybe better then anyone, how what they do is probably not as easy as they might make it look and that's the same for those with magic or superpowers as well.

----------


## Aahz

If we are going by her pre crisis origin Cass stopped actually to train at the age of 9.

And even with her training some of the speed and strength feats they are giving her are just ridiculous. But in Damians case it is even worse imo.

----------


## dietrich

Outside of animation Damian is in no way OP.

----------


## Aahz

> Outside of animation Damian is in no way OP.


He could finish the flying Batmobil, repair a Justice league teleporter, fix Wayne Enterprises Finances, one shot Tim and Jason, finish the Year of Blood and tons of other over the top stuff during his training by Talia, that is imo all quite ridiculous.
Seriously just reread the Batman & Robin Zero  issue and the flashbacks in Year of Blood.

----------


## Carabas

> Uh, _Cass has, too._ She's spent a larger percentage of  it that way than Bruce has.


Not just a larger percent. During her life she probably spent more hours training than Bruce Wayne. And I'd be inclined to say that her training was harsher than Bruce's.

----------


## dietrich

> He could finish the flying Batmobil, repair a Justice league teleporter, fix Wayne Enterprises Finances, one shot Tim and Jason, finish the Year of Blood and tons of other over the top stuff during his training by Talia, that is imo all quite ridiculous.
> Seriously just reread the Batman & Robin Zero  issue and the flashbacks in Year of Blood.


That's not OP for a comic book character not any more OP than Building a self healing building or some crap like that or Bruce being master of anything and everything.

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce didn't go live with the Kanes because Thomas and Jacob didn't like each other. Almost certainly there was something in the Waynes' wills about Bruce staying with Alfred.


 And if not Alfred it would have been probably Uncle Phillipp and not Jacob. 






> It's also interesting that you use Barbara as a character who had their skills developed over decades when, in her very first appearance, she saved Batman from being kidnapped. That kind of undermines your point a bit.


She saved Bruce who had to keep up his secret identity. And  she actually lost against Killer Moth, and got saved by Bruce who used the time to suit up as Batman.

----------


## Bat-Meal

-If a character is killed off they should stay dead and not be resurrected, unless the entire storyline where they died is retconned and removed from continuity.

-Spoilers reasons for betraying the team were stupid, and unless the character redeems herself in some way I don't like her.  She could have just walked away rather than attack everyone, they'd get the message that she doesn't approve.

-Batwoman needs to do something about her mask/cowl because she's been unmasked twice in a short space of time (previous solo and 'Tec), three times if you count the DEO (although that was through tricking her sidekick, so not literal).  She only gets away with it because her main enemies are led by family members so they know anyway(RoC and Colony).  The Nocturna storyline was stupid though, so that unmasking and entire storyline would be best to be removed from continuity IMO.

-Batman keeping his own private prison is messed-up.  Extra weird since he's conspiring with a relative to imprison another relative.  If it was a temporary couple of days before handing them over to the authorities it wouldn't be as bad, but it's been months!  Plus, he interrogates them.

----------


## Caivu

> -Spoilers reasons for betraying the team were stupid, and unless the character redeems herself in some way I don't like her.  She could have just walked away rather than attack everyone, they'd get the message that she doesn't approve.


I don't think anyone here would disagree that her actions were dumb, or at least, very naive, but I think that's the point. The reason she didn't just walk away was because she wants thw others to stop, as well. Just leaving wouldn't convey that message as strongly.




> -Batman keeping his own private prison is messed-up.  Extra weird since he's conspiring with a relative to imprison another relative.  If it was a temporary couple of days before handing them over to the authorities it wouldn't be as bad, but it's been months!  Plus, he interrogates them.


What else can he do? If word gets out to the press that a close relative of not one, but two prominent Gotham socialites was responsible for an attack on the city, that means months and months of the media hounding them. That's extra stress Bruce and Kate don't need, so keeping Jacob in his own custody solves that issue. Plus, yes, he needs to interrogate him.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> I don't think anyone here would disagree that her actions were dumb, or at least, very naive, but I think that's the point. The reason she didn't just walk away was because she wants thw others to stop, as well. Just leaving wouldn't convey that message as strongly.


I know the character's motivations for what she did.  Doesn't make me like her though.  :Smile: 




> What else can he do? If word gets out to the press that a close relative of not one, but two prominent Gotham socialites was responsible for an attack on the city, that means months and months of the media hounding them. That's extra stress Bruce and Kate don't need, so keeping Jacob in his own custody solves that issue. Plus, yes, he needs to interrogate him.


And it's messed-up.  Reminds me of this in some ways: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...omanInTheAttic

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

I love Batman Eternal and Batman & Robin Eternal, and specifically the whole Robin team up vibe. I really like the New 52's dynamic between the Robins and Batgirls/Etc and the little Xmen vibe it creates when they interact. 

I really wish the whole New 52 and the old thing existed beside eachother like Marvel and Ultimate Marvel did, becuase so much of the Tim is wrong or Cass is wrong thing would go away if you could have both simultaneously.

----------


## Ianbarreilles

I still think batwoman is massively underrated and Harper row too lots of people hated Harper but I like her....

----------


## Totoro Man

I really hate the fact that they turned Catwoman into an orphan.  honestly, I don't think it adds that much to the character.

----------


## Frontier

> I really hate the fact that they turned Catwoman into an orphan.  honestly, I don't think it adds that much to the character.


Kind of dovetailing from this, while I'm fine with a Selina Kyle that grew up as an orphan on the streets with nothing, I don't mind the wealthy socialite turned cat burglar Catwoman either.

----------


## millernumber1

> I love Batman Eternal and Batman & Robin Eternal, and specifically the whole Robin team up vibe. I really like the New 52's dynamic between the Robins and Batgirls/Etc and the little Xmen vibe it creates when they interact. 
> 
> I really wish the whole New 52 and the old thing existed beside eachother like Marvel and Ultimate Marvel did, becuase so much of the Tim is wrong or Cass is wrong thing would go away if you could have both simultaneously.


Hehe. I love Batman Eternal, and large parts of Batman and Robin Eternal. They both  have flaws, but show me a Batman crossover that doesn't.  :Smile: 

I think the idea of multiple continuities running parallel is great, but I don't think DC is currently willing to play with splitting the fanbase with something they know the fans love as much as the post-Crisis continuity.  :Smile:

----------


## KC

Damian Wayne should never become Batman. 
I don't mind Duke Thomas and Harper Row. 
I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but, Dennis O'Neil's Nightwing miniseries is awful.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

" Cass is OP and her being mute does not nerf he bc a young girl beating everyone up is far to good to be believable. "

This is the problem of not knowing a character, and just say things like this, just because...

1) Cass is one of the very few characters out there who doesn't win fights "just because"...there's a reason for it! Casandra's mother (Lady Shiva) was hand-picked by Cassandra's father (David Cain) due to Shiva being able to read body-language and also being a crazy skilled fighter even as a teenager, then Cass was born and rised in a environement of pretty much torture, she wasn't taught how to speak or how to read and just how to read body language fluently and training martial-arts, for the most part she wasn't allowed contact with others, her father used to beat her up even using guns to shoot on her body to amp her pain-tolerance, etc...as a result, Cass was able to effortlessy know what her opponents next moves would be before they actually did them, and she could even know their feelings/thoughts to a extent! this was all explained and shown on panel.
Unlike, most characters, Cass doesn't depend on the PLOT to win her fights, on her case it's the PLOT that holds her back...she doesn't just win just because she's more popular than her oponents like most characters do.

2) Cassandra's abillities and skill-set aren't a one time-thing-type-of deal, like most characters...Cass has beaten Shiva twice in hand-to-hand only contest's...stallemated Batman while only going hand-to-hand the whole time and with Batman using Gear + Gadgets + Dirty Tactics, just to stay in the fight...in another ocasion out-fighted a "morals-off" Batman and forced him to run away from her...oneshotted Bronze Tiger, when she was just a small child...defeated David Cain despite his mind-games, which according to Deathstroke are the only way to beat her, speaking of Deathroke, Cass fought Slade 1-on-1 3 times on 3 different titles (Nightwing, Batgirl, Teen Titans) and it always ended with no clear winner...she defeated The Ravager (Rose Wilson) 1-on-1 on their first confrontation, she stallemated with her on their second despite Cass having just come up of being drugged...Nightwing on Batgirl #29 addmited that he can't touch her unless she lets him, on Batgirl redemption road #1 Nightwing atacked Cass and she dodged his every attack and then he tried to use his scrima-sticks on her she blocked his attack and disarmed him, making him look harmless to her, on Batgirl redemption road #5 Nightwing again attacked Cass and she just "kicked him away"...etc, etc.
- To sum it up, Cass is able to do what she does for a reason, and she does it consistently, its good-writting, most of the people that don't like Cass, just get but-hurt that she's superior to their favourite characters and kicks their butts  :Cool:  as she should.

----------


## Aahz

@bat_girl_cc

Finding a explanation why a character has a certain power or skill is not a problem in comics, the question is if a character should have it and if it fits in the franchise.

And in Cass case there are at least imo certain feats that are not in line, the explanation of how her powers work and are clearly far above the level of someone who is supposed to be peak human and on top of it the writers tend to ignore her limitations. 
How far example was she able to do the stunt with the Argus Jet in B&RE or find the human traffickers in the last 'Tec issue? That are things that should be very hard for her to do (at least much harder than for any other Batfamily member).

----------


## Pohzee

> " Cass is OP and her being mute does not nerf he bc a young girl beating everyone up is far to good to be believable. "
> 
> This is the problem of not knowing a character, and just say things like this, just because...
> 
> 1) Cass is one of the very few characters out there who doesn't win fights "just because"...there's a reason for it! Casandra's mother (Lady Shiva) was hand-picked by Cassandra's father (David Cain) due to Shiva being able to read body-language and also being a crazy skilled fighter even as a teenager, then Cass was born and rised in a environement of pretty much torture, she wasn't taught how to speak or how to read and just how to read body language fluently and training martial-arts, for the most part she wasn't allowed contact with others, her father used to beat her up even using guns to shoot on her body to amp her pain-tolerance, etc...as a result, Cass was able to effortlessy know what her opponents next moves would be before they actually did them, and she could even know their feelings/thoughts to a extent! this was all explained and shown on panel.
> Unlike, most characters, Cass doesn't depend on the PLOT to win her fights, on her case it's the PLOT that holds her back...she doesn't just win just because she's more popular than her oponents like most characters do.
> 
> 2) Cassandra's abillities and skill-set aren't a one time-thing-type-of deal, like most characters...Cass has beaten Shiva twice in hand-to-hand only contest's...stallemated Batman while only going hand-to-hand the whole time and with Batman using Gear + Gadgets + Dirty Tactics, just to stay in the fight...in another ocasion out-fighted a "morals-off" Batman and forced him to run away from her...oneshotted Bronze Tiger, when she was just a small child...defeated David Cain despite his mind-games, which according to Deathstroke are the only way to beat her, speaking of Deathroke, Cass fought Slade 1-on-1 3 times on 3 different titles (Nightwing, Batgirl, Teen Titans) and it always ended with no clear winner...she defeated The Ravager (Rose Wilson) 1-on-1 on their first confrontation, she stallemated with her on their second despite Cass having just come up of being drugged...Nightwing on Batgirl #29 addmited that he can't touch her unless she lets him, on Batgirl redemption road #1 Nightwing atacked Cass and she dodged his every attack and then he tried to use his scrima-sticks on her she blocked his attack and disarmed him, making him look harmless to her, on Batgirl redemption road #5 Nightwing again attacked Cass and she just "kicked him away"...etc, etc.
> - To sum it up, Cass is able to do what she does for a reason, and she does it consistently, its good-writting, most of the people that don't like Cass, just get but-hurt that she's superior to their favourite characters and kicks their butts  as she should.


And some people think that a character who always wins by nature is boring.

----------


## Aioros22

I personally enjoy watching Cass and Bruce losing a fight.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> @bat_girl_cc
> 
> Finding a explanation why a character has a certain power or skill is not a problem in comics, the question is if a character should have it and if it fits in the franchise.
> 
> And in Cass case there are at least imo certain feats that are not in line, the explanation of how her powers work and are clearly far above the level of someone who is supposed to be peak human and on top of it the writers tend to ignore her limitations. 
> How far example was she able to do the stunt with the Argus Jet in B&RE or find the human traffickers in the last 'Tec issue? That are things that should be very hard for her to do (at least much harder than for any other Batfamily member).


1) Batman IMO already crosses the line between peak-human and low-level-meta-human, many times, Azrael and Cass more so yes, but its not uncommon in comics, Captain America and Daredevil do it too and they are all seen as "peak-humans", heck some people see Spider-Man as being a street-leveler and most people agree with it, so...
2) With Argus, it was more a matter of stealth, which IMO Cass is top notch on it, even on the last issue of detective comics she sneaked up on Batman she was watching him talking with the mayor without Batman noticing her and when someone finally saw her Batman smirked as in he figured out it was Cass and he wasn't surprised...on the same issue, Cass literally disappeared on Batman while talking to him on a rooftop.
As for finding out the human-trafficing ring, Batman himself said he was trying to find it, but the idea that i got from it was that Batman was doing it as a Detective analizing clues, etc, Cass just got down to the streets and randomily caught them, besides we know that Batman wasn't focusing 24/7 on that human trafficing ring, he must have lots of cases like that he follows, not counting his work for the Justice League, for Cass who in this new continuity we know that she has been hell-bent in punishing thugs that pick on girls and children, for Batman its just tuesday.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> And some people think that a character who always wins by nature is boring.


Depends...Wonder Woman, Superman, Martian Man Hunter, The Flash, etc, are characters that should win 99.999% of the time they are in a fight, regardless of the opponent, and yet, writters have been making compeling stories for them and giving them challenging enemies for decades now...why should be any more dificult with Cass?...a low-level-meta-human should already be a challenge for her at least a little bit, some have made Cass work for it a bit in the past, a telepath could be fun, a android/cyborg, etc etc. you just have to be creative, should Cass beat people like Batman, Batwoman, Batgirl, Nightwing, Red Hood, etc when/if they go hand-to-hand against her? absolutely, does that serve as a excuse for lazyness on a writter's part? absolutely not.

----------


## Aahz

> 1) Batman IMO already crosses the line between peak-human and low-level-meta-human, many times,


 Thats unfortunatly a tendency since the last 10 years, but it is not an intrinsic part of his characterisation.




> Azrael and Cass more so yes, but its not uncommon in comics, Captain America and Daredevil do it too and they are all seen as "peak-humans", heck some people see Spider-Man as being a street-leveler and most people agree with it, so...


Azrael (at least the pre flashpoint version) and Spiderman are metahumans (not sure about Cap) and Spiderman is probaly not even that low (at least for Marvel where the popular heros not as powerfull as the DCs). 
If Cass was actually a meta, I wouldn't have problems with her showings (but I think that Metas don't belong in the Batman franchise).

----------


## JamesC

> Thats unfortunatly a tendency since the last 10 years, but it is not an intrinsic part of his characterisation.
> 
> Azrael (at least the pre flashpoint version) and Spiderman are metahumans (not sure about Cap) and Spiderman is probaly not even that low (at least for Marvel where the popular heros not as powerfull as the DCs). 
> If Cass was actually a meta, I wouldn't have problems with her showings (but I think that Metas don't belong in the Batman franchise).


I've always considered Cap a metahuman because he has peak human abilities simultaneously. He's as fast as an olympic sprinter but also has the stamina of a long distance runner while being as strong as an olypmic power-lifter. That type of physical prowess couldn't possibly occur naturally.

Has Cass ever fought Midnighter? That would be interesting as they bothe have a similar body-reading type ability.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Midnighter doesn't have body reading, he has computer that tells him the future, body reading is rather tame in comparison. Prometheus and Deathstroke are better comparisons. So is current Azrael.

----------


## Aahz

> 2) With Argus, it was more a matter of stealth, which IMO Cass is top notch on it


No it is said that she changed the flight plan of the plane, and thats something she shouldn't be able to do. And I also doubt that she could beat a security system, pre flash point it was in one issue shown that she isn't even able to pick locks.

----------


## Aahz

I don't know if thats controversial, but I think it is overdue that they are doing an Orgins Story for Alfred and clarify kind of what he did before he became the Butler of the Wayne's. 
Did he grew up in England or Gotham (his father and Grand Father were apparently all ready butlers of the Wayne family). Was in the Army or in the MI-5 or both, and how long. How long was is acting career and were did he learned all the Buttler stuff if he was an soldier and actor.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't know if thats controversial, but I think it is overdue that they are doing an Orgins Story for Alfred and clarify kind of what he did before he became the Butler of the Wayne's. 
> Did he grew up in England or Gotham (his father and Grand Father were apparently all ready butlers of the Wayne family). Was in the Army or in the MI-5 or both, and how long. How long was is acting career and were did he learned all the Buttler stuff if he was an soldier and actor.


I'm actually kind of surprised how long we've gone without a writer really diving into and detailing Alfred's background outside of casual mentions of his theater/government background and, obviously, now Julia as his daughter.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm actually kind of surprised how long we've gone without a writer really diving into and detailing Alfred's background outside of casual mentions of his theater/government background and, obviously, now Julia as his daughter.


On the other hand the details of Alfreds Pre flashpoint origins (Batman Annual#13, Nightwing-Alfreds Return and Tec #806-#807) were also never brought up outside of these issues. And these also kind of contradic each other.

For example I can't recall that Alfreds mother (who was also actress) was ever mentioned outside of Batman Annual#13, and it also mentioned it Brother (a pre crisis character) who is also nowhere else mentioned in the post crisis continuity, the story with Alfreds fiancée from Nightwing - Alfreds Return, was also never mentioned again and Tec #806-#807 (where it is revealed that his real name is Alfred Beagle and he just took that name when he had to go into hiding after a mission for the MI-5, and where his father was a butler but not the one of the Waynes) contradicts anyway anything that was established about Alfreds past.

----------


## Aahz

Imo the Kid in this scene is the Nolanverse version of Jason Todd.

----------


## Totoro Man

> I don't know if thats controversial, but I think it is overdue that they are doing an Orgins Story for Alfred and clarify kind of what he did before he became the Butler of the Wayne's. 
> Did he grew up in England or Gotham (his father and Grand Father were apparently all ready butlers of the Wayne family). Was in the Army or in the MI-5 or both, and how long. How long was is acting career and were did he learned all the Buttler stuff if he was an soldier and actor.


never really bought the MI-5 backstory. (but it's there in the comics, so there you have it) 

the army is fairly believable though.  if he had basic training in field medicine, logistics, and things like that it wouldn't be too hard to believe.  a lot British officers back in the day had 'batmen' (aka servants) who would basically be doing many of the sorts of things that Alfred is doing now.

personally, I don't like the family lineage = destiny.  (probably because I'm an American)  the idea that everybody has a predestined purpose and skill-set based on their family name seems a bit too convenient and over-used.  as though nobody would every wish to deviate from their parent's chosen, or established, profession.

there's no real reason to have the Pennyworth clan be the Wayne family's butlers for multiple generations.  (it makes him seem too much like Baldrick, from Blackadder)  besides, it would actually make the MI-5 and British army things too far-fetched and complicated.

----------


## Aahz

> the army is fairly believable though.  if he had basic training in field medicine, logistics, and things like that it wouldn't be too hard to believe.  a lot British officers back in the day had 'batmen' (aka servants) who would basically be doing many of the sorts of things that Alfred is doing now.


Based on Alfreds age it could also be possible that he was drafted into the Army, at least untill the beginning of the post crisis continuity.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Thats unfortunatly a tendency since the last 10 years, but it is not an intrinsic part of his characterisation.
> 
> Azrael (at least the pre flashpoint version) and Spiderman are metahumans (not sure about Cap) and Spiderman is probaly not even that low (at least for Marvel where the popular heros not as powerfull as the DCs). 
> If Cass was actually a meta, I wouldn't have problems with her showings (but I think that Metas don't belong in the Batman franchise).


Batman has crossed that line so many times now, thats not even funny...
Cass is not a meta on paper, she's peak-human, although it was statted on panel that her aggregate speed is meta-human, but she's overall meta-human by feats and they are consistent, as for the others what i meant is that "street-leveler" is a term used mostly in battle-foruns and a "street-leveler" or just "street" is everyone from Alfred to Spider-man...every low-grade human hero, peak-human, and low-level-meta-human, Azrael, Batman, Cass, Deathstroke, and Spider-Man are in this category...Midnighter would be a "mid-tier"...Superman, Wonderwoman, etc, are "high-tier"...Darkseid is "cosmic-level"...the point is, people often associate Batman with Spider-Man in terms of capabilities, because Batman is close to meta-level, and Spider-man is not far above as in he's low-level-meta.
Metas don't belong in the bat-verse? where have you been in last decades? should i name 50 or so meta-humans that have appeared on bat-books, heros and villains? Poison Ivy, Bane, KG Beast, 2 Azraels, The Sensei, etc etc.

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## bat_girl_cc

> No it is said that she changed the flight plan of the plane, and thats something she shouldn't be able to do. And I also doubt that she could beat a security system, pre flash point it was in one issue shown that she isn't even able to pick locks.


Well, its a new continuity, so its possible that it will become consistent Cass being a little more capable on that are that she used to be.
Besides, that isn't even that difficult to begin with, when you think about it, i'm not that good with computers myself, i only know what most people of today's era knows, i'm not a computer-wizard, and i would probably be able to do that as well, change the route of a plane, change the route of a car on the GPS, those are not hard things, as in, you don't need to be a Tim Drake/Harper Row/Stephanie Brown to do those things...in the previous continuity a rookie Cass beat a security sistem (cameras on multiple angles, which should detect any movement from anything) easly...as i said, in my opinion, those are more stealth feats than tech feats.

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## Aahz

> Metas don't belong in the bat-verse? where have you been in last decades? should i name 50 or so meta-humans that have appeared on bat-books, heros and villains? Poison Ivy, Bane, KG Beast, 2 Azraels, The Sensei, etc etc.


I meant as Heros. And Bane, Sensai aren't metas afaik.

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## bat_girl_cc

> I meant as Heros. And Bane, Sensai aren't metas afaik.


- Azrael 1 (JPV), Azrael 2 (Michael lane), both Batman Beyond and both Batwing's Standard-Gear allows them to perform meta-human feats on a basis so by all intents and purposes they are meta-humans when they are fighting-crime, same thing for Robo-Batman (Jim-Gordon) who barely did anything without the big suit on hence why he needed it, and so on...
- Bane's venom makes him meta-human and its a big part of his character, Sensei has lived throughout centuries and his limited-stamina is the only "human-thing" about that guy who could stomp Batman in 2 minutes, Batman needed the suit of sorrows which significantly amps the physical-stats of the one who wears it to even be able to compete with the Sensei.

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## Aahz

> Well, its a new continuity, so its possible that it will become consistent Cass being a little more capable on that are that she used to be.
> Besides, that isn't even that difficult to begin with, when you think about it, i'm not that good with computers myself, i only know what most people of today's era knows, i'm not a computer-wizard, and i would probably be able to do that as well, change the route of a plane, change the route of a car on the GPS, those are not hard things, as in, you don't need to be a Tim Drake/Harper Row/Stephanie Brown to do those things...in the previous continuity a rookie Cass beat a security sistem (cameras on multiple angles, which should detect any movement from anything) easly...


Problem is that Cass can't read (I think that was even mentioned in the last Tec issue), and had in general next to no education apart from martial arts.
Alone that she knew where she could find a secret Argus base is not really plausible.

And that writers ignored her limitations already in the previous continuity doesn't make it better.

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## bat_girl_cc

> Problem is that Cass can't read (I think that was even mentioned in the last Tec issue), and had in general next to no education apart from martial arts.
> Alone that she knew where she could find a secret Argus base is not really plausible.
> 
> And that writers ignored her limitations already in the previous continuity doesn't make it better.


Cass having a hard time speaking-reading is intrinsic part of her character, but its possible that she has been trained to do those things by David Cain.
What i meant is that those things are alot more related with stealth (its the hardest part of what she did) than with tech, and stealth was never a limitation for her, if anything she's even better with stealth than with fighting, she just sneaked up on Batman and watched him having a conversation without getting seen, and after that while talking to him she disappeared on him.

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## Aahz

> both Batman Beyond and both Batwing's Standard-Gear allows them to perform meta-human feats on a basis so by all intents and purposes they are meta-humans when they are fighting-crime, same thing for Robo-Batman (Jim-Gordon) who barely did anything without the big suit on hence why he needed it, and so on...


Batman Beyond, is not in the main Batman Books and Batwings suit gives him afaik only invisibility, the ability to fly, armor and some tech stuff (and the invisibility is ignored by most writers). Afiak it was never said or shown that it increases his speed or strength, iirc he even got his ass kicked by Lady Vic back in his own series.
And all the Robo-suits are imo also stuff that don't belong into Batman. Especially since they are used very inconsistent. Bruce seems to have tons of them, but hardly ever uses or gives other Batfamily members access to them (appart from Batwing).




> - Bane's venom makes him meta-human and its a big part of his character, Sensei has lived throughout centuries and his limited-stamina is the only "human-thing" about that guy who could stomp Batman in 2 minutes, Batman needed the suit of sorrows which significantly amps the physical-stats of the one who wears it to even be able to compete with the Sensei.


Bane stipped using Venom after Knightfall untill the new 52, and it can be used by everyone (and Bruce used it actually before Bane).
The Sensai was afaik a normal human, before they made this stupid retcon with him beeing Ras father. And even after this his long live is very likely just achieved by the Lazarus pit, which wouldn't really make him a meta.

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## Aahz

> Cass having a hard time speaking-reading is intrinsic part of her character, but its possible that she has been trained to do those things by David Cain.


Which would remove her limitations. 




> What i meant is that those things are alot more related with stealth (its the hardest part of what she did) than with tech, and stealth was never a limitation for her, if anything she's even better with stealth than with fighting, she just sneaked up on Batman and watched him having a conversation without getting seen, and after that while talking to him she disappeared on him.


She might be able to evade cameras, but as soon as she needs to hack something or "short-circuit" (don't know if thats the right word in english) she is imo screwed.
And an Argus facility should usually have a quite advanced Security System. If she had managed to do it with civilan or maybe even a military jet maybe, but Argus?

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## bat_girl_cc

> Batman Beyond, is not in the main Batman Books and Batwings suit gives him afaik only invisibility, the ability to fly, armor and some tech stuff (and the invisibility is ignored by most writers). Afiak it was never said or shown that it increases his speed or strength, iirc he even got his ass kicked by Lady Vic back in his own series.
> And all the Robo-suits are imo also stuff that don't belong into Batman. Especially since they are used very inconsistent. Bruce seems to have tons of them, but hardly ever uses or gives other Batfamily members access to them (appart from Batwing).
> 
> Bane stipped using Venom after Knightfall untill the new 52, and it can be used by everyone (and Bruce used it actually before Bane).
> The Sensai was afaik a normal human, before they made this stupid retcon with him beeing Ras father. And even after this his long live is very likely just achieved by the Lazarus pit, which wouldn't really make him a meta.


- Bane uses venom much more than everyone else, in this new continuity IIRC Bronze Tiger has been under the effects of the Venom and he told Batman that he doesn't know how its like, i think it means that Batman using venom is no longer cannon.
- If Batman (who already is a at peak-human condition) needed to severely amp his physical-stats with the Suit Of Sorrows to even compete with The Sensei for 2 minutes (The Sensei's limit stamina)...now imagine how big Sensei's stats are.

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## bat_girl_cc

> Which would remove her limitations. 
> 
> She might be able to evade cameras, but as soon as she needs to hack something or "short-circuit" (don't know if thats the right word in english) she is imo screwed.
> And an Argus facility should usually have a quite advanced Security System. If she had managed to do it with civilan or maybe even a military jet maybe, but Argus?


- Being trained to change the course of a plane, removes her limitations? so she can become a detective now and analyse clues, etc, while not being able to porperly speak or read, because she can change the course of a plane?...security matters aside, i would probably be able to do that too, and i don't think i would make a acareer out of being a detective, now imagine Cass.
- i guess thats its possible that they didn't thought that anyone not from Argus would be able to get into the plane to begin with, which Cass did

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## lorraine

- The Batfam is just too big. The writers should just stop creating more new creators and instead concentrate on writing more intriguing story arcs using old Batfam characters (Bruce, Dick, Tim, Jason, Damien, Barbara, Alfred) like they did in the 1980s to early 2000s.
- Gotham is now filled with meta-human villains which are totally unnecessary. They should emphasise more on 'detective' crime story arcs instead of Batman calling for backing from all Batfam members (plus even from outside) to help him fight. Remember back in the 80s and the early 2000s? Those were the true essence of what Batman stories are supposed to be like.
- And i believe the two points above are not even controversial.
- I hate the Dickbabs ship... *getting ready for all the backlashes from 'ship' fans*
- I prefer Babs as Oracle because it's realistic and even empowers who she really is as a disabled person. I HATE what N52 had done with her to bring her back to Batgirl. Batgirl is so whiney, childish at times, and just ugh
- Don't like the relationship between Harley and Ivy because I feel like they just pushed them to be romantic partners so that the Batman-related comics will have more diversity by adding same-sex partners. I prefer their dynamic platonic relationship back in the BTAS days because of excellent writing.
- Duke and Harper should have never been created
- B&RE was a total snoozer

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## lucius121

> - The Batfam is just too big. The writers should just stop creating more new creators and instead concentrate on writing more intriguing story arcs using old Batfam characters (Bruce, Dick, Tim, Jason, Damien, Barbara, Alfred) like they did in the 1980s to early 2000s.
> - Gotham is now filled with meta-human villains which are totally unnecessary. They should emphasise more on 'detective' crime story arcs instead of Batman calling for backing from all Batfam members (plus even from outside) to help him fight. Remember back in the 80s and the early 2000s? Those were the true essence of what Batman stories are supposed to be like.
> - And i believe the two points above are not even controversial.
> - I hate the Dickbabs ship... *getting ready for all the backlashes from 'ship' fans*
> - I prefer Babs as Oracle because it's realistic and even empowers who she really is as a disabled person. I HATE what N52 had done with her to bring her back to Batgirl. Batgirl is so whiney, childish at times, and just ugh
> - Don't like the relationship between Harley and Ivy because I feel like they just pushed them to be romantic partners so that the Batman-related comics will have more diversity by adding same-sex partners. I prefer their dynamic platonic relationship back in the BTAS days because of excellent writing.
> - Duke and Harper should have never been created
> - B&RE was a total snoozer


I think it's interesting you list Damian amongst the old batfam characters when he was created after Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain, yet neither of them made the list. Either way I agree with the majority of your points, especially on the whole shipping thing which doesn't seem to add anything meaningful to the narrative of the characters involved.

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## Aahz

> I think it's interesting you list Damian amongst the old batfam characters when he was created after Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain, yet neither of them made the list.


They were gone from the comics for years and are now newly introduced.

And Steph was mostly a support character of Tim and later Cass, but she was hardly ever really in the Batfamily. I don't think that she (appart from War games) ever really had a role in one of the big cross overs pre flashpoint.

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## VolcanikTiger86

> - The Batfam is just too big. The writers should just stop creating more new creators and instead concentrate on writing more intriguing story arcs using old Batfam characters (Bruce, Dick, Tim, Jason, Damien, Barbara, Alfred) like they did in the 1980s to early 2000s.


Well for me I would drop Jason because fans voted for his death and from what I have read the writing has been spotty since Ideally I would want something like 
Bruce Dick Tim, Barbara, Steph Alfred 



> - Gotham is now filled with meta-human villains which are totally unnecessary. They should emphasise more on 'detective' crime story arcs instead of Batman calling for backing from all Batfam members (plus even from outside) to help him fight. Remember back in the 80s and the early 2000s? Those were the true essence of what Batman stories are supposed to be like.


Truthfully you are sorta right other than the joker and Bane you dont really seen any of Batmans classic rogues any more not that I can remember anyway



> - And i believe the two points above are not even controversial.


IMO you arent that far from the truth. 



> - I hate the Dickbabs ship... *getting ready for all the backlashes from 'ship' fans*


I hate the ship to ship combat between fans of two different ships but thats not exactly controversial 



> - I prefer Babs as Oracle because it's realistic and even empowers who she really is as a disabled person. I HATE what N52 had done with her to bring her back to Batgirl. Batgirl is so whiney, childish at times, and just ugh


I have to admit I like that thought of Steph as Batgirl again but thats just me. 



> - Don't like the relationship between Harley and Ivy because I feel like they just pushed them to be romantic partners so that the Batman-related comics will have more diversity by adding same-sex partners. I prefer their dynamic platonic relationship back in the BTAS days because of excellent writing.


If I have to choose between Joker and Ivy sorry Ivy has my vote. 



> - Duke and Harper should have never been created


You arent wrong imo 



> - B&RE was a total snoozer


Need to read it before I can comment. 

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## Aahz

I'm not sure if it counts as controversial opinion but:

Tim never followed Batman and Robin with a camera during their night patrols.

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## Totoro Man

> Well, its a new continuity, so its possible that it will become consistent Cass being a little more capable on that are that she used to be.
> Besides, that isn't even that difficult to begin with, when you think about it, i'm not that good with computers myself, i only know what most people of today's era knows, i'm not a computer-wizard, and i would probably be able to do that as well, change the route of a plane, change the route of a car on the GPS, those are not hard things, as in, you don't need to be a Tim Drake/Harper Row/Stephanie Brown to do those things...in the previous continuity a rookie Cass beat a security sistem (cameras on multiple angles, which should detect any movement from anything) easly...as i said, in my opinion, those are more stealth feats than tech feats.


changing the flight plan of an aircraft in flight should be a pretty big deal.  you would need to know how much fuel you have left, the distances between the new waypoints, planned loiter time prior to landing (if any), weather patterns, the gross weight of the aircraft.  that's not something a barely literate person should really know how to do.  I mean, people go to school for this sort of thing, and usually put in a lot of flight hours before they're allowed to do that sort of thing.  now, if she'd had somebody like Tim, Stephanie, or Oracle there to hijack the thing remotely and do it for her that'd be a piece-of-cake

it's like how every computer hacker on film and in TV can break into something in less than 5 minutes when in reality it might take days, or even months, to do that sort of thing.

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## Assam

Alright, let's do this:

-Barbara Gordon, while great as Oracle, is by far the worst Batgirl. 
- Dick Grayson is the worst Robin. 
-Cassandra Cain is the character most worthy of becoming Batman after Bruce. 
-Stephanie Brown would be happier in a relationship with Cass than with Tim. 


I'd love to hear your all of your thoughts on these.

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## darkseidpwns

Cass cant be Batman because you know she aint a man.
My opinion
Ra's al Ghul is overexposed, taking comics alone he just showed up in TT, will show up in Tec, ASB, Trinity and Batman Beyond in the next few months.

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## Assam

> Cass cant be Batman because you know she aint a man.
> My opinion
> Ra's al Ghul is overexposed, taking comics alone he just showed up in TT, will show up in Tec, ASB, Trinity and Batman Beyond in the next few months.


Cass doesn't care about gender. From her earliest solo issues, she's said that she wants to be Batman, and she has the skill and drive to back it up. 

And I totally agree with you about Ra's. DC needs to give him a rest.

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## millernumber1

> -Barbara Gordon, while great as Oracle, is by far the worst Batgirl. 
> - Dick Grayson is the worst Robin. 
> -Cassandra Cain is the character most worthy of becoming Batman after Bruce.


Depending on the writer, I agree on the last. I absolutely agree with the first. But why Dick as worst Robin? He was Robin longest, I think.

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## Assam

> Depending on the writer, I agree on the last. I absolutely agree with the first. But why Dick as worst Robin? He was Robin longest, I think.


What I meant was that out of the 5 canon Robins, Dick is my least favorite as a character. Pre-Nightwing I found him incredibly bland, and as Nightwing, while a great hero in his own right, I still find him to be less interesting than Jason, Tim, and especially Stephanie and Damian.

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## millernumber1

> What I meant was that out of the 5 canon Robins, Dick is my least favorite as a character. Pre-Nightwing I found him incredibly bland, and as Nightwing, while a great hero in his own right, I still find him to be less interesting than Jason, Tim, and especially Stephanie and Damian.


Ah. I tend to agree.  :Smile:

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## Pohzee

The mid-90s to early '00s was the worst time period for Batman, and the characters that were introduced during this era drag down the Batbooks of today.

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## Assam

> The mid-90s to early '00s was the worst time period for Batman, and the characters that were introduced during this era drag down the Batbooks of today.


Appropriately enough for this forum, I couldn't disagree with you more. The storylines of this era were some of my favorites, like "Anarky" and "No Man's Land", and Cassandra Cain is my favorite character in all of fiction.

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## millernumber1

> The mid-90s to early '00s was the worst time period for Batman, and the characters that were introduced during this era drag down the Batbooks of today.


Could you explain which characters you think are currently dragging down the Batbooks?

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## Pohzee

> Could you explain which characters you think are currently dragging down the Batbooks?


 1.) Cain
 2.) Brown doesn't click with me unless she is Batgirl
 4.) Drake has been horrible since at least the New52 and Rebirth hasn't helped a lick.
 5.) Azreal
 6.) I have never liked Huntress until Grayson, and had been bad in Rebirth.
 7.) General overcrowding of a Batfamily
 8.) That didn't need to be reintroduced into the New52, especially since their rushed reintroductions mean that they have less experience, none of their classic stories, and inferior origins.
 9.) The New52 didn't go far far enough in character cutdowns.
10.) Introducing the 90's cast along with the new New52 characters means that the Batfamily is the largest and most overcrowded and bloated it's ever been.
11.) See my sig line.

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## Assam

> 1.) Cain
> 2.) Brown doesn't click with me unless she is Batgirl
> 4.) Azreal
> 5.) General overcrowding of a Batfamily
> 6.) That didn't need to be reintroduced into the New52, especially since their rushed reintroductions mean that they have less experience, none of their classic stories, and inferior origins.
> 7.) The New52 didn't go far far enough in character cutdowns.
> 8.) Introducing the 90's cast along with the new New52 characters means that the Batfamily is the largest and most overcrowded and bloated it's ever been.


I like my Batfamily big and bloated, mostly because I find almost everyone in it vastly more interesting than Batman himself. In fact, unless a Batman book has other family members in it, I won't read it.

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## millernumber1

> 1.) Cain
>  2.) Brown doesn't click with me unless she is Batgirl
>  4.) Drake has been horrible since at least the New52 and Rebirth hasn't helped a lick.
>  5.) Azreal
>  6.) I have never liked Huntress until Grayson, and had been bad in Rebirth.
>  7.) General overcrowding of a Batfamily
>  8.) That didn't need to be reintroduced into the New52, especially since their rushed reintroductions mean that they have less experience, none of their classic stories, and inferior origins.
>  9.) The New52 didn't go far far enough in character cutdowns.
> 10.) Introducing the 90's cast along with the new New52 characters means that the Batfamily is the largest and most overcrowded and bloated it's ever been.


1) Cass? She's great! How is she dragging things down?
2) I mean, I love Steph as Robin, but I love her outsider status as Spoiler, too, and her sense of normal fun in the face of incredibly dark circumstances. Also, Steph was created in 92.
4) (Did I miss 3?) Tim was created in 89 or 90, I'm pretty sure. And I think you're pretty alone in thinking that Rebirth didn't do something to help Tim's characterization.
5) Aww, poor brainwashed religious fanatic!
6) Huntress was created in 89, revamped by Dixon in 92-94. Her strongest incarnation was from 99-2011, though, so I might have to give you that one. But I don't see how she's bad in Rebirth - I love Birds of Prey.  :Smile: 
7) Overcrowding accusations always annoy me. It's only overcrowding if the characters aren't being used well. Two can be overcrowded if poorly written.
8) ?
9) I will agree that the N52 was way, way too inconsistent - if they cut down the Batgirls, they should have cut down the Robins (except that Morrison was using Jason and Damian, and Dick wasn't going anywhere, and people liked Tim too much to get rid of him at the time).
10) That's just a repetition of your earlier complaint. It seems that you don't like how they're handled, but that's not a universal feeling.




> I like my Batfamily big and bloated, mostly because I find almost everyone in it vastly more interesting than Batman himself. In fact, unless a Batman book has other family members in it, I won't read it.


Agreed. It's my biggest problem with Batman solo books, honestly. It's why I adore the idea and most of the execution of current Tec.

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## Pohzee

> 1) Cass? She's great! How is she dragging things down?
> 2) I mean, I love Steph as Robin, but I love her outsider status as Spoiler, too, and her sense of normal fun in the face of incredibly dark circumstances. Also, Steph was created in 92.
> 4) (Did I miss 3?) Tim was created in 89 or 90, I'm pretty sure. And I think you're pretty alone in thinking that Rebirth didn't do something to help Tim's characterization.
> 5) Aww, poor brainwashed religious fanatic!
> 6) Huntress was created in 89, revamped by Dixon in 92-94. Her strongest incarnation was from 99-2011, though, so I might have to give you that one. But I don't see how she's bad in Rebirth - I love Birds of Prey. 
> 7) Overcrowding accusations always annoy me. It's only overcrowding if the characters aren't being used well. Two can be overcrowded if poorly written.
> 8) ?
> 9) I will agree that the N52 was way, way too inconsistent - if they cut down the Batgirls, they should have cut down the Robins (except that Morrison was using Jason and Damian, and Dick wasn't going anywhere, and people liked Tim too much to get rid of him at the time).
> 10) That's just a repetition of your earlier complaint. It seems that you don't like how they're handled, but that's not a universal feeling.


I originally didn't have Tim and Steph, but since I haven't liked either since the New52, I threw them in. That's what screwed up the numbering too. And indeed, these are controversial opinions.

Some other rapid fire ones:

-I like Damian Wayne
-He should have stayed dead
-Nobody knows what to do with him in the Bat-Office. Robin should be the second half of "Batman and..." But he is noticeably absent, and it reflects poorly on Bruce.

-Dick Grayson was the best Robin
-Dick Grayson is a better Batman than Bruce
-Dick Grayson is best as Nightwing
-Dick Grayson is the best.

-Agent 37 was well written and interesting, it suited Dick's character well, but it was not a natual progression for the character.
-I like the idea of Babs as Batwoman

-Making Kate Kane Bruce's cousin made me like her less.

-Mother Panic, based on premise, sounds likd a Batwoman knock off.

-I have enjoyed rereading '60s camp more than the New52 Batman
-While it seemed like a good idea following Black Mirror, putting Snyder in charge of the Bat-line was a mistake. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

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## Assam

> I originally didn't have Tim and Steph, but since I haven't liked either since the New52, I threw them in. That's what screwed up the numbering too. And indeed, these are controversial opinions.
> 
> Some other rapid fire ones:
> 
> -I like Damian Wayne
> -He should have stayed dead
> -Nobody knows what to do with him in the Bat-Office. Robin should be the second half of "Batman and..." But he is noticeably absent, and it reflects poorly on Bruce.
> 
> -Dick Grayson was the best Robin
> ...


Thoughts on those rapid fire opinions:

-I like Damian as well. In fact, he's my favorite male Robin. 
- Eh, maybe. I didn't read any New 52 Batbooks so I can't say for sure. 
- I like Robin being an independent character, so I'm happy to see him leading the Titans and partnering up with Jon. 
- I think Dick Grayson is the worst Robin.
- Agreed, though that has more to do with me not liking Bruce. 
- Agreed. 
- Bitchwing as I like to call him is far from the best. 
- Babs is only good as Oracle. 
- I'd take 60's camp over the New 52 any day.

----------


## Drako

Cassandra Cain is a broken character.

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## Assam

> Cassandra Cain is a broken character.


Oh, her abilities are absolutely ridiculous. But, because of her personality and development, she remains my favorite.

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## SiegePerilous02

> The mid-90s to early '00s was the worst time period for Batman, and the characters that were introduced during this era drag down the Batbooks of today.


Aside from Huntress and Kate (if she counts, though I agree the cousin thing is stupid), I fully agree.

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## bat_girl_cc

> Cassandra Cain is a broken character.


I agree that "old cass" is superior to "new Cass", but the fact is that has far as i'm concerned she's still the best and most interesting character that DC has to offer...now imagine that...she would have to be degraded to like 50% of her full capacity right now, for someone else to step up to the number 1 spot in my liking...Batman used to be my number 1 then Cass was created...with everything that i like about Batman but only better and cooler in all of those aspects (overall badassery, fighting, stealth, willpower, etc) and Batman went to my number 2 spot, then flashpoint happened and we got "new cass" (granted that this is still a very young continuity, and "new Cass" might surprise me alot still) but so far she can't hold a candle to her former self...and guess what, she's still my number one in my personal list.

----------


## Caivu

> -I like the idea of Babs as Batwoman


Ew, why?




> -Making Kate Kane Bruce's cousin made me like her less.


Why?




> -Mother Panic, based on premise, sounds likd a Batwoman knock off.


It may sound like it, but it's totally not. I would even argue that making Violet similar to Kate is part of the point.

----------


## Drako

> I agree that "old cass" is superior to "new Cass", but the fact is that has far as i'm concerned she's still the best and most interesting character that DC has to offer...now imagine that...she would have to be degraded to like 50% of her full capacity right now, for someone else to step up to the number 1 spot in my liking...Batman used to be my number 1 then Cass was created...with everything that i like about Batman but only better and cooler in all of those aspects (overall badassery, fighting, stealth, willpower, etc) and Batman went to my number 2 spot, then flashpoint happened and we got "new cass" (granted that this is still a very young continuity, and "new Cass" might surprise me alot still) but so far she can't hold a candle to her former self...and guess what, she's still my number one in my personal list.


I'm not saiyng that the new 52 version is worse than the old one when i say she is broken. 
I understand you find her really cool because she is invencible and this kind of stuff, but I don't have any interest in theses types of characters.

Well, BatGod is also broken, but we can see he being beaten once in awhile.
Cassandra is invencible to a point that if she lose a fight her fans start a riot.

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## bat_girl_cc

> The mid-90s to early '00s was the worst time period for Batman, and the characters that were introduced during this era drag down the Batbooks of today.


Actually the characters that came after those, were and still are the reason why DC's ship sinked as low as it did...the mid90's to early '00s characters that were created, are the rescue team...why do you think Rebirth is happening in the fist place? IMO Rebirth is DC bringing in its "A game", even Dand Didio has said it so himself.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> I'm not saiyng that the new 52 version is worse than the old one when i say she is broken. 
> I understand you find her really cool because she is invencible and this kind of stuff, but I don't have any interest in theses types of characters.
> 
> Well, BatGod is also broken, but we can see he being beaten once in awhile.
> Cassandra is invencible to a point that if she lose a fight her fans start a riot.


This has been debated many times, the difference between Cass winning and any other character, is the fact that Cass has a reason to win, she doesn't win just because, besides she was created to be a unstopable combatant...
Looking past skills alone, Cass is also easy to like, and to feel compassion for her, for what happened to her, and seeing how hard it is for her to make friends, and basically just to fit, as she can hardly talk at all, and read, and while she understands people better than they understand themselves through body-reading, that doens't help her because the other characters don't have that abillity...its really sad, if have a soul, you gotta feel for her  :Smile:

----------


## Pohzee

> Ew, why?


Someone in one of the Batgirl threads mentioned the idea, and I really like it. She was introduced as a PhD, served as a senator, and even after reboots is still an adult. It seems disrespectful to call her Bat*girl*. Her youthful name is also why she's being written like a moron despite having 25 years on everybody but Dick and Jason. In theory, Oracle would be a good mantle, but in execution it relegates her to a supporting character. And while that may still sound like a good concept, I find that in execution, this only serves to dumb down Batman's detective skills or work as a hacking plot device (my least favorite trope.) Barbara will always be seen as 'Batgirl,' but it wouldn't be a hard sell for people to buy her as 'Batwoman.' I know that it won't happen though because Kate Kane has the mantle.





> Why?


It is a retcon that makes the universe too hyperconnected. It's too coincidental and makes Gotham feel smaller. It doesn't help Bruce's character. It doesn't help Kate's character. It was a bad idea.

----------


## Pohzee

> This has been debated many times, the difference between Cass winning and any other character, is the fact that Cass has a reason to win, she doesn't win just because, besides she was created to be a unstopable combatant...
> Looking past skills alone, Cass is also easy to like, and to feel compassion for her, for what happened to her, and seeing how hard it is for her to make friends, and basically just to fit, as she can hardly talk at all, and read, and while she understands people better than they understand themselves through body-reading, that doens't help her because the other characters don't have that abillity...its really sad, if have a soul, you gotta feel for her


Ah yes, she has a reason for winning every fight she gets in. "B3c@u$3 sh3's @m@z1ng." That isn't really a legit reason. It's a "because I said so." It takes very little effort to introduce a "best fighter ever" character. It makes her unbearable, but she could be a decent character if she was nerfed down to a point where she was still a very good fighter, but not unbeatable. It wouldn't take anything away from her character.

----------


## Caivu

> It is a retcon that makes the universe too hyperconnected. It's too coincidental and makes Gotham feel smaller. It doesn't help Bruce's character. It doesn't help Kate's character. It was a bad idea.


Disagree on all fronts. 

How does one relationship change make things "too hyperconnected"? And even if that's true, so what? 

Actually, Kate _not_ being related to Bruce would be a lot more coincidental. If she's not, that just means that Bruce just randomly showed up in that alleyway that night Kate saw him. But if they're cousins, it would make sense because he would've known she was going through a rough time and was keeping tabs on her to make sure she was okay. There would be an actual reason for him to be there in that case.

And if you think their relationship as cousins isn't helping their characters, you must not be reading 'Tec.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

> Disagree on all fronts. 
> 
> How does one relationship change make things "too hyper connected"?
> 
> Actually, Kate _not_ being related to Bruce would be a lot more coincidental. If he's not, that just means that he randomly showed up in that alleyway that night Kate saw him. But if they're cousins, it would make sense because he would've known she was going through a rough time and was keeping tabs on her to make sure she was okay. There would be an actual reason for him to be there in that case.
> 
> And if you think their relationship as cousins isn't doing anything for their characters, you must not be reading 'Tec.


Batman saves people in alleys all the time. One of hundreds he's saved taking inspiration isn't coincidental. It builds on the idea of Bruce as a symbol of inspiration. It's not like she knew he was Bruce at the time. It also takes away from the idea that even though Bruce was alone in the world after he was orphaned, he built up his own family. I just think crime-fighting cousins with matching costumes is kinda dumb.

And reading 'Tec is mostly what brought me to this conclusion.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Ah yes, she has a reason for winning every fight she gets in. "B3c@u$3 sh3's @m@z1ng." That isn't really a legit reason. It's a "because I said so." It takes very little effort to introduce a "best fighter ever" character. It makes her unbearable, but she could be a decent character if she was nerfed down to a point where she was still a very good fighter, but not unbeatable. It wouldn't take anything away from her character.


Due to the unique way that she was born, raised and trained, Cass can read her opponents body-language to the point that she can easly know what her opponents next moves will be way before they actually make them, and shes' alot faster than them, and knows many different ways to take them down, thats way she wins...even "new cass" was recently stated on Tec' to know hundreds of different ways to beat every opponent, and she has to hold back with all of her might just not to kill them...and thats on top of knowing what they will do in advance...although to be fair it hasn't been clarifyed how her body-reading works in this new continuity in detail.
Cass can lose, just not in hand-to-hand against other "humans" for obvious reasons...plus, she can be beaten with prep from a distance (even with prep, take her down up close its hard due to her speed, she would react faster and just speed-blitz K.O).
She's already a very interesting character, you people just have to get over her being so skilled, and looking past that, into her other "good things" like her struggles to fit into to society, and how she sees the others, etc, actually its pretty amazing that she became a nice person after what she been through, it would been expectable that she would be mpore violent than she is, but no she's actually very caring about the others.
Cass is already a very interesting character

----------


## millernumber1

> This has been debated many times, the difference between Cass winning and any other character, is the fact that Cass has a reason to win, she doesn't win just because, besides she was created to be a unstopable combatant...
> Looking past skills alone, Cass is also easy to like, and to feel compassion for her, for what happened to her, and seeing how hard it is for her to make friends, and basically just to fit, as she can hardly talk at all, and read, and while she understands people better than they understand themselves through body-reading, that doens't help her because the other characters don't have that abillity...its really sad, if have a soul, you gotta feel for her


Is it okay if I feel for her and like her a lot, but she's not my fave?  :Wink:  Am I still having of a soul?




> And if you think their relationship as cousins isn't helping their characters, you must not be reading 'Tec.


Agreed. I really like the family relationship there!

----------


## Assam

> Is it okay if I feel for her and like her a lot, but she's not my fave?  Am I still having of a soul?
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. I really like the family relationship there!



As a representative of the Cassandra Cain fanbase, I'm gonna say that since your favorite character is Steph, Cass's best friend/potential GF, you can get a pass. XD

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Is it okay if I feel for her and like her a lot, but she's not my fave?  Am I still having of a soul?
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. I really like the family relationship there!



Yes  :Big Grin: 
But if she's not in your top 10 you're probably a bad person  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes 
> But if she's not in your top 10 you're probably a bad person


I mean, I am a bad person. But not for that reason. Cass is definitely top ten, maybe top five.

----------


## Caivu

> Batman saves people in alleys all the time. One of hundreds he's saved taking inspiration isn't coincidental.


I'm not concerned with those other people. I'm talking about from the standpoint of Kate's story. Batman just happens to be there at the right time, just so she can get inspired by him? Nuh-uh. Pure coincidence. It's an awesome moment in Elegy, but that aspect of it always bugged me a bit. 




> It builds on the idea of Bruce as a symbol of inspiration. It's not like she knew he was Bruce at the time.


That's not harmed in any way by them being cousins. She _did_ take inspiration from him.




> It also takes away from the idea that even though Bruce was alone in the world after he was orphaned, he built up his own family.


This isn't harmed, either. Kate's always been "freelance", for lack of a better term, as far as the Batfamily goes, so her independence from him doesn't disturb that aspect. And they've never been particularly close in their civilian lives, so him being "alone" works too.




> And reading 'Tec is mostly what brought me to this conclusion.


What, specifically?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Disagree on all fronts. 
> 
> How does one relationship change make things "too hyperconnected"? And even if that's true, so what? 
> 
> Actually, Kate _not_ being related to Bruce would be a lot more coincidental. If she's not, that just means that Bruce just randomly showed up in that alleyway that night Kate saw him. But if they're cousins, it would make sense because he would've known she was going through a rough time and was keeping tabs on her to make sure she was okay. There would be an actual reason for him to be there in that case.
> 
> And if you think their relationship as cousins isn't helping their characters, you must not be reading 'Tec.


It's not that coincidental. Rescuing people in alleys is what Batman does 24/7, him happening to be there to help Kate isn't really all that crazy. I think it makes it a more powerful encounter if he doesn't really know who she is and he still has a profound impact on her life. 

There's also the fact that Rucka never intended them to be cousins, and I don't see how going against his wishes really adds to either character. Not helped by Morrison doing that while also re-introducing Golden Age Kathy back into continuity, meaning Bruce...dated his aunt. Johns' Earth One graphic novels are mostly underwhelming, but I think he struck gold with the idea of making Martha an Arkham.  Let the Kanes be another wealthy clan that Bruce has no connection to. Not everything in Gotham needs to come back to the Waynes and their extended families (though I guess making her an Arkham trades one example for another).

----------


## Pohzee

> It's not that coincidental. Rescuing people in alleys is what Batman does 24/7, him happening to be there to help Kate isn't really all that crazy. I think it makes it a more powerful encounter if he doesn't really know who she is and he still has a profound impact on her life. 
> 
> There's also the fact that Rucka never intended them to be cousins, and I don't see how going against his wishes really adds to either character. Not helped by Morrison doing that while also re-introducing Golden Age Kathy back into continuity, meaning Bruce...dated his aunt. Johns' Earth One graphic novels are mostly underwhelming, but I think he struck gold with the idea of making Martha an Arkham.  Let the Kanes be another wealthy clan that Bruce has no connection to. Not everything in Gotham needs to come back to the Waynes and their extended families (though I guess making her an Arkham trades one example for another).


Lots of this.^^^



> This isn't harmed, either. Kate's always been "freelance", for lack of a better term, as far as the Batfamily goes, so her independence from him doesn't disturb that aspect. And they've never been particularly close in their civilian lives, so him being "alone" works too.


She coleads the 'Tec team with him...





> What, specifically?


The part that you didn't quote.



> I just think crime-fighting cousins with matching costumes is kinda dumb.


*Edit:* Man, I shoulda use the Schlieffen Plan on this thread or somethin'. Not feeling a two-front argument.

----------


## Caivu

> It's not that coincidental. Rescuing people in alleys is what Batman does 24/7, him happening to be there to help Kate isn't really all that crazy. I think it makes it a more powerful encounter if he doesn't really know who she is and he still has a profound impact on her life.


Not from an outside standpoint, no, you're right. It's not weird. But from inside her story, it comes off as random and little bit Chosen One-esque.

It's not exactly a deus ex machina, but it's close.




> There's also the fact that Rucka never intended them to be cousins, and I don't see how going against his wishes really adds to either character. Not helped by Morrison doing that while also re-introducing Golden Age Kathy back into continuity, meaning Bruce...dated his aunt.


I'm slightly skeptical of that claim that she was never intended to be Bruce's cousin. I mean, I know Rucka has said that and I don't think he's lying, but then why give her the same surname as Martha's maiden name, which was established several years before Kate debuted? It was a topic of some speculation ever since.

As for Morrison's additions... I liked them, but they've been pretty firmly out of canon for a while now, particularly in regards to Kathy.

----------


## Pohzee

> Not from an outside standpoint, no, you're right. It's not weird. But from inside her story, it comes off as random and little bit Chosen One-esque.
> 
> 
> It's not exactly a deus ex machina, but it's close


Only because we don't see the story of everybody else he saves. This is the story of the person inspired by Batman, not a chosen one.



> I'm slightly skeptical of that claim that she was never intended to be Bruce's cousin. I mean, I know Rucka has said that and I don't think he's lying, but then why give her the same surname as Martha's maiden name, which was established several years before Kate debuted? It was a topic of some speculation ever since.
> 
> As for Morrison's additions... I liked them, but they've been pretty firmly out of canon for a while now, particularly in regards to Kathy.


Are you serious? How is it any different than the other Kate Kane having the same name? She's not his cousin. In fact, I'm pretty sure Kate was originally supposied to be a Post-Crisis modernization of the character. And Katherine Kane was in Inc., which was New 52.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Kate being Bruce's cousin largely made me lose interest. She wasn't intended that way in ELEGY, and one of the things I loved so much about her was how random it was. She was someone Batman saved, who went and pushed herself to live up to him.

----------


## Caivu

> Are you serious? How is it any different than the other Kate Kane having the same name? She's not his cousin.


Because Kathy Kane came along long before Martha's maiden name was given as Kane. And Morrison established that Kathy Kane wasn't her real name anyway.




> In fact, I'm pretty sure Kate was originally supposied to be a Post-Crisis modernization of the character.


I've heard this, but it doesn't make a lot of sense and to my knowledge there's nothing to back it up. 




> And Katherine Kane was in Inc., which was New 52.


She wasn't in the New 52 series, unless I missed it. She was in #4 and #5 (I think it was) of the 2010 series, before the New 52.




> Kate being Bruce's cousin largely made me lose interest. She wasn't intended that way in ELEGY, and one of the things I loved so much about her was how random it was. *She was someone Batman saved, who went and pushed herself to live up to him.*


The "intended" argument isn't very compelling to me. The Colony almost certainly wasn't intended when that was written, but that new addition was slotted into the spaces of that story almost perfectly. This is no different.

That bolded bit does not change at all with them being related.

I should maybe mention that when I first read Batwoman #25, the issue where the cousin relationship was established, it didn't come off as a retcon to me; I assumed they had _always_ been cousins, and I just didn't know about it. I literally didn't know that was the first time that had been mentioned.

----------


## Pohzee

> Because Kathy Kane came along long before Martha's maiden name was given as Kane. And Morrison established that Kathy Kane wasn't her real name anyway.She wasn't in the New 52 series, unless I missed it. She was in #4 and #5 (I think it was) of the 2010 series, before the New 52


She was in the finale of Inc as the head of Spyral.



> I've heard this, but it doesn't make a lot of sense and to my knowledge there's nothing to back it up.


More evidence than there is for the "theory" that she was made to be Bruce's cousin. She has the same name, the sams moniker, and a costume reminiscient of the old Batwoman suit.

----------


## Caivu

> She was in the finale of Inc as the head of Spyral.


Oh, I thought you meant Kate. Not Kathy. Yes, Kathy was in it.




> More evidence than there is for the "theory" that she was made to be Bruce's cousin. She has the same name, the sams moniker, and a costume reminiscient of the old Batwoman suit.


And a different backstory, different personality, different hair color and sexual orientation... (Edit: Good idea asking Rucka about it)

----------


## Pohzee

Whelp. Guess that solves that. She was orginally a reinvention. Guess I'll add that since you mentioned the Colony, _that_ is a chosen one trope that completely alters the character and makes her something other than a victim inspired by Batman. I didn't like that either. At all. These two changes really alter the character.

----------


## Caivu

> Whelp. Guess that solves that.


What solves what? The answer Rucka gave you isn't exactly clear:

Screenshot_20170226-195659.jpg

It could mean she was originally planned to be that way, but the idea was scrapped.




> Guess I'll add that since you mentioned the colony, _that_ is a chosen one trope that completely alters the character and makes her something other than a victim inspired by Batman. I didn't like that either. At all. *These two changes really alter the character.*


No, they don't. At all.

Not as a detriment, anyway. They simply add onto her.

----------


## Pohzee

> What solves what? The answer Rucka gave you isn't exactly clear. It could mean she was originally planned to be that way, but the idea was scrapped.


Intent. Rucka did not intend for her to be Bruce's cousin. She was originally supposed to be a reinvention of the Batwoman Katherine Kane. Her name is Kate Kane. She was not supposed to be Bruce's cousin.[/QUOTE]



> No, they don't. At all.
> 
> Not as a detriment, anyway. They simply add onto her.


Yes, it does. You think that Batman rescuing a woman in an alleyway is too "chosen one" tropey, but her being unknowingly being trained for a elite, secret military unite isn't? You think that making her Batman's cousin, changing her father's motovation for training her, and making her destined to lead the Colony doesn't frame the character differently?

----------


## Caivu

> Rucka did not intend for her to be Bruce's cousin.


I'm not arguing that.




> She was originally supposed to be a reinvention of the Batwoman Katherine Kane.


Originally, sure. Doesn't mean that idea made it to print.




> Yes, it does. You think that Batman rescuing a woman in an alleyway is too "chosen one" tropey, but her being unknowingly being trained for a elite, secret military unite isn't?


"Chosen One" isn't the exact term for either situation, it just broadly gets across my point. That's my bad for not being clear, sorry. Destiny is closer to what I mean.

The Colony stuff isn't either one, though. It's nepotism, plan and simple. And Kate violently rejects it to boot.




> You think that making her Batman's cousin, changing her father's motovation for training her, and making her destined to lead the Colony doesn't frame the character differently?


Ansolutely not. It doesn't change anything about her personality or characterization prior to that revelation (either one, really).

----------


## Pohzee

> I'm not arguing that.
> 
> 
> 
> Originally, sure. Doesn't mean that idea made it to print.
> 
> 
> 
> "Chosen One" isn't the exact term for either situation, it just broadly gets across my point. That's my bad for not being clear, sorry. Destiny is closer to what I mean.
> ...


You can handwave each argument individually, but together they form a coming argument. Kate was originally supposed to be a modernization of Kathy Kane. This is where she derives her name, even if she evolved into a different character. She does not bear the Kane name out of relation to Martha. This retcon was not intended and creates awkward continuity kinks like Bruce attempting to marry his Aunt. It brings into question why Bruce didn't go to live with his extended family, even if reasons have been fabricated. 

Kate was a solo vigilante with limited connections to the Batfamily. Now, she coleads a team with her cousin who has a matching Batsuit. Because of numerous retcons, Kate is no longer _somebody_ who Batman rescued and inspired to fight crime. She is his direct cousin who was trained as a superhero to be the chosen one to lead a covert military group. This reframes the entire context of Kate's motivations and training to start crime fighting. It changed he father's reasons for helping her. It changes the basis of the character. It changes her focus and her story. It makes far to many hyperconnections, shrinking Gotham and weakening her character. I personally don't like it. And you can't change my opinion by ignoring my arguments and saying that these changes don't matter. You're focusing on arguing away the details and missing the bigger picture. They do.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I should maybe mention that when I first read Batwoman #25, the issue where the cousin relationship was established, it didn't come off as a retcon to me; I assumed they had always been cousins, and I just didn't know about it. I literally didn't know that was the first time that had been mentioned.


It recontextualized the entire character for me and totally felt like a retcon. She already had an interesting family and cast of characters around her, she didn't need Bruce Wayne. I also liked that Batman was more of a symbol of heroism. She didn't know Bruce Wayne. Batman could have been anyone, but he was someone who entered her life at her darkest hour and reached out.

----------


## Caivu

> It recontextualized the entire character for me and totally felt like a retcon. She already had an interesting family and cast of characters around her, she didn't need Bruce Wayne.


I mean, it _is_ a retcon, but retcons aren't inherently bad. It would've been much worse if she'd previously been said anywhere to not be related to him, but instead it was just ambiguous.




> She didn't know Bruce Wayne. Batman could have been anyone, but he was someone who entered her life at her darkest hour and reached out.


That didn't change. She didn't know who Batman was when she first met him.

----------


## Caivu

> This retcon was not intended and creates awkward continuity kinks like Bruce attempting to marry his Aunt.


By the time Kate was revealed as his cousin, Kathy had already been revealed as not being his aunt. So this isn't a problem.




> It brings into question why Bruce didn't go to live with his extended family, even if reasons have been fabricated.


It's not hard, man. It was in the Waynes' wills that Bruce not be sent away, and Jacob didn't like/want him anyway. Easy.




> Kate was a solo vigilante with limited connections to the Batfamily. Now, she coleads a team with her cousin who has a matching Batsuit.


She's actually had kind of a lot of connections to the rest of the Batfamily. And a big theme of her solo series was that going it alone isn't really a great idea. The "Batwoman is a loner" thing isn't really that true.

What does her batsuit have anything to do with this? It's the same one she's always had, pretty much.




> Because of numerous retcons, Kate is no longer _somebody_ who Batman rescued and inspired to fight crime. She is his direct cousin who was trained as a superhero to be the chosen one to lead a covert military group.


She's both, man. And again, it's _not_ "the chosen one". It's nepotism. Very different.

The Chosen One: one person has been prophesied to do a thing.

Nepotism: Giving your family members positions of status regardless of actual merit. 




> This reframes the entire context of Kate's motivations and training to start crime fighting.


No it doesn't. How? Her motivations haven't changed one bit. It changes Jacob's somewhat, but not hers.




> It changed he father's reasons for helping her.


Specifically, yes, but not in general. Jacob's still the supporting, caring dad he's always been. He just wanted a certain path for her that, had certain things not changed between them, she very well might have accepted.




> It changes the basis of the character. It changes her focus and her story. It makes far to many hyperconnections, shrinking Gotham and weakening her character.


_How_, man? You're not explaining the _how_ of any of this. You're just saying that it _is_, like that's an argument (it's not).

----------


## thefiresky

> You can handwave each argument individually, but together they form a coming argument. Kate was originally supposed to be a modernization of Kathy Kane. This is where she derives her name, even if she evolved into a different character. She does not bear the Kane name out of relation to Martha. This retcon was not intended and creates awkward continuity kinks like Bruce attempting to marry his Aunt. It brings into question why Bruce didn't go to live with his extended family, even if reasons have been fabricated. 
> 
> Kate was a solo vigilante with limited connections to the Batfamily. Now, she coleads a team with her cousin who has a matching Batsuit. Because of numerous retcons, Kate is no longer _somebody_ who Batman rescued and inspired to fight crime. She is his direct cousin who was trained as a superhero to be the chosen one to lead a covert military group. This reframes the entire context of Kate's motivations and training to start crime fighting. It changed he father's reasons for helping her. It changes the basis of the character. It changes her focus and her story. It makes far to many hyperconnections, shrinking Gotham and weakening her character. I personally don't like it. And you can't change my opinion by ignoring my arguments and saying that these changes don't matter. You're focusing on arguing away the details and missing the bigger picture. They do.


o-PIMP-570.jpg
OK I'm done.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Cass doesn't care about gender. From her earliest solo issues, she's said that she wants to be Batman, and she has the skill and drive to back it up. 
> 
> And I totally agree with you about Ra's. DC needs to give him a rest.


She can not care about gender all she wants but she is a woman, therefore she can be Batgirl or Batwoman but not Batman. It's like saying Dick or Jason could be Batwoman because they have the skills to back it up, hilarious.

----------


## Pohzee

> No it doesn't. How? Her motivations haven't changed one bit.





> How, man? You're not explaining the how of any of this. You're just saying that it is, like that's an argument (it's not).


If the guiding motivations of a character are altered, it recontextualizes their entire development. All the training that Kate went through with her father now means something entirely different. She was pushing herself, training to be a vigilante, but now she was also being unknowingly being pressured and shaped by her father to groom her for the Colony. This calls into question Kate's drive and inspiration versus her father's influence.

You can't possibly tell me that the 'Tec leading, Colony destined cousin of Batman isn't a character who hasn't been altered by retcons.

Best I got.

----------


## Caivu

> If the guiding motivations of a character are altered, it recontextualizes their entire development. All the training that Kate went through with her father now means something entirely different. She was pushing herself, training to be a vigilante, but now she was also being *unknowingly* being pressured and shaped by her father to groom her for the Colony. This calls into question Kate's drive and inspiration versus her father's influence.


It's that word "unknowingly" that's the key here. If she didn't know that any of that was going on, then it couldn't have changed her. Her own drive and desire to become a vigilante doesn't change in any way because of this.

_She didn't know about any of what was planned for her._ That's why nothing about her changed.




> You can't possibly tell me that the 'Tec leading, Colony destined cousin of Batman isn't a character who hasn't been altered by retcons.


Not her _as a character,_ no. Those things _could not_ have changed her _because she didn't know about them._





> OK I'm done.


 :Confused:

----------


## thefiresky

I'm honestly surprised this argument has been civil this long between you two. I'm over here with popcorn just learning. I feel like I don't even need to read Batwoman back issues 'cuz now I know her whole story. This is great. Keep going.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm honestly surprised this argument has been civil this long between you two. I'm over here with popcorn just learning. I feel like I don't even need to read Batwoman back issues 'cuz now I know her whole story. This is great. Keep going.


It's a little bit funny because I'm pretty sure I remember reading that NightwingIvI doesn't even _like_ Batwoman (correct me if I'm wrong)...

----------


## Pohzee

> It's that word "unknowingly" that's the key here. If she didn't know that any of that was going on, then it couldn't have changed her. Her own drive and desire to become a vigilante doesn't change in any way because of this.
> 
> _She didn't know about any of what was planned for her._ That's why nothing about her changed.
> 
> 
> 
> Not her _as a character,_ no. Those things _could not_ have changed her _because she didn't know about them._


Are you arguing that subconsious influences can't change one's character or motivation? Subconsious influences still sway people's actions and motivations. Just because her father's influences were subconcious does not change the fact that he was influencing her motivations. This changes the framing of Kate's training and indeed her entire career if she was nudged into it by her Dad so she could lead a team of SEALs dressed as Bats.

----------


## Pohzee

> It's a little bit funny because I'm pretty sure I remember reading that NightwingIvI doesn't even _like_ Batwoman (correct me if I'm wrong)...


I've come to appreciate her earlier appearances, but have disliked everything about her Rebirth direction. I have issues with a large Batfamily and my main issue with her was percieved bloating.

----------


## thefiresky

> my main issue with her was percieved bloating.


Can you explain? I'm just unsure what you meant.

----------


## Caivu

> Are you arguing that subconsious influences can't change one's character or motivation? Subconsious influences still sway people's actions and motivations. Just because her father's influences were subconcious does not change the fact that he was influencing her motivations. This changes the framing of Kate's training and indeed her entire career if she was nudged into it by her Dad so she could lead a team of SEALs dressed as Bats.


They certainly can, but they didn't in this case. Not significantly, at least. Her motivation, service, wouldn't have changed anyway, even if she were conscious of what was going on.

And we saw in 'Tec #934 that she wasn't exactly itching to go out an do big missions like Jacob was suggesting she do. She was perfectly happy doing small-time street-level work in Gotham (for a variety of reasons).

----------


## Assam

> She can not care about gender all she wants but she is a woman, therefore she can be Batgirl or Batwoman but not Batman. It's like saying Dick or Jason could be Batwoman because they have the skills to back it up, hilarious.


If Dick or Jason wanted to be Batwoman, I'd be down for that. XD

When you take on an alter ego, you can be whoever you want to be, and Cass wants to be BatMAN, not Batwoman, because of what Batman represents. It has nothing to do with gender, just ideals.

----------


## Pohzee

> They certainly can, but they didn't in this case. Not significantly, at least. Her motivation, service, wouldn't have changed anyway, even if she were conscious of what was going on.


Because it was subconsious manipulating, it is impossible to tell the extent of her father's influence. This retcon undermines Kate's training and inspiration for a payoff of a rather boring "Arkham Knighesque" rogues group. Not a fair trade IMO.



> Can you explain? I'm just unsure what you meant.


I think the "Batfamily" is much too large. I don't like when people try to make them out to be the X-Men. See sig line.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> If Dick or Jason wanted to be Batwoman, I'd be down for that. XD
> 
> When you take on an alter ego, you can be whoever you want to be, and Cass wants to be BatMAN, not Batwoman, because of what Batman represents. It has nothing to do with gender, just ideals.


Not when the alterego is gender specific, it's Bat*MAN* *MAN* not Bat person, the mantle is not gender neutral. How about calling Kara Superman because she represents the ideals? that's why Batgirl and Batwoman  or Supergirl and Superwoman exist.

----------


## Assam

> Because it was subconsious manipulating, it is impossible to tell the extent of her father's influence. This retcon undermines Kate's training and inspiration for a payoff of a rather boring "Arkham Knighesque" rogues group. Not a fair trade IMO.
> 
> 
> I think the "Batfamily" is much too large. I don't like when people try to make them out to be the X-Men. See sig line.


As I said before the discussion on Batwoman started, I like a massive Bat Family. Honestly, instead of Duke and Harper being invented, I think it would have been cool if we'd gotten some more extensions of Batwoman. We already have Bette as a start, but I think there's room for a few more.

----------


## Assam

The difference is that, far as we know, Kara has no desire to be known as Superman. Cass has repeatedly stated what she wants, and I'm actually now picturing someone, not you, just a random guy, telling her, "You can't be Batman because you're a girl," and her just responding by punching him in the face.

----------


## Caivu

> Because it was subconsious manipulating, it is impossible to tell the extent of her father's influence. This retcon undermines Kate's training and inspiration for a payoff of a rather boring "Arkham Knighesque" rogues group. Not a fair trade IMO.


You left out the second part of my response that indicates that any manipulation Jacob was doing to Kate's desires, inasfar as "leading a military group" is concerned, didn't seem to take.
And in what way does it undermine her training? Just because something shady was going on doesn't negate what she learned.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The difference is that, far as we know, Kara has no desire to be known as Superman. Cass has repeatedly stated what she wants, and I'm actually now picturing someone, not you, just a random guy, telling her, "You can't be Batman because you're a girl," and her just responding by punching him in the face.


For her sake I hope she doesn't punch an actually evil Clayface or Mr Bloom or Wrath or anyone of Riddler, Hatter, Joker death traps. I repeat, her desire is inconsequential unless she undergoes a sex change operation.
Also makes her look like an entitled prick if she punches someone who's telling her the obvious, I know Damian would probably do the same but the story would also reinforce that he is infact a prick, no whitewashing of his actions. Here I'm betting the narrative will be skewed to make it look like the other guy was mansplaining and Cass only put him in his place.

----------


## Assam

> For her sake I hope she doesn't punch an actually evil Clayface or Mr Bloom or Wrath or anyone of Riddler, Hatter, Joker death traps. I repeat, her desire is inconsequential unless she undergoes a sex change operation.
> Also makes her look like an entitled prick if she punches someone who's telling her the obvious, I know Damian would probably do the same but the story would also reinforce that he is infact a prick, no whitewashing of his actions. Here I'm betting the narrative will be skewed to make it look like the other guy was mansplaining and Cass only put him in his place.


At this point we're getting into ideological differences. I'm an SJW and a Feminist, and from what you're saying, I'm guessing that you're...not.

----------


## Pohzee

> You left out the second part of my response that indicates that any manipulation Jacob was doing to Kate's desires, inasfar as "leading a military group" is concerned, didn't seem to take.
> And in what way does it undermine her training? Just because something shady was going on doesn't negate what she learned.


It diminishes her motivations and agency by having her father influencing her decions, moreso because she is unaware of his manipulation, not less.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> At this point we're getting into ideological differences. I'm an SJW and a Feminist, and from what you're saying, I'm guessing that you're...not.


I'm just a person who looks at things as they are. But I'm pretty sure Feminism says that women are mens equals and should be treated as such which I agree with, not that women are men. 
Batman is not a gender neutral title, that has nothing to do with feminism or social justice, its fact.

----------


## Assam

> I'm just a person who looks at things as they are. But I'm pretty sure Feminism says that women are mens equals and should be treated as such which I agree with, not that women are men. 
> Batman is not a gender neutral title, that has nothing to do with feminism or social justice, its fact.


Gender is psychological. Not physical. It doesn't matter what body parts you were born with, just how you see yourself. And because Cass was raised without being taught the concept of different genders, I doubt she even really considers herself male or female. Remember, Bruce and Barbara told her she was Batgirl, she didn't pick the name herself.

----------


## Caivu

> It diminishes her motivations and agency by having her father influencing her decions, moreso because she is unaware of his manipulation, not less.


Assuming that's true, that was already the case in Elegy. Kate didn't build her Batsuit or her gear, or come up with the idea of wearing a Batsymbol. She never tried to ape Batman's theme on her own. Those were all Jacob's ideas. And that's in addition to her training.

If that's a problem, it's not a new one.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Gender is psychological. Not physical. It doesn't matter what body parts you were born with, just how you see yourself. And because Cass was raised without being taught the concept of different genders, I doubt she even really considers herself male or female. Remember, Bruce and Barbara told her she was Batgirl, she didn't pick the name herself.


Alright sex then, the Batman mantle is not sex neutral. It's pretty much why Batgirl and Batwoman titles were invented.

----------


## Pohzee

> Assuming that's true, that was already the case in Elegy. Kate didn't build her Batsuit or her gear, or come up with the idea of wearing a Batsymbol. She never tried to ape Batman's theme on her own. Those were all Jacob's ideas. And that's in addition to her training.
> 
> If that's a problem, it's not a new one.


But it's the context behind his decisions that has changed. Less supportive, more manipulative.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> But it's the context behind his decisions that has changed. Less supportive, more manipulative.


It's hard to deny that Tynion has rebooted Kate Kane, I actually had this debate with Caivu before.

----------


## Assam

> Alright sex then, the Batman mantle is not sex neutral. It's pretty much why Batgirl and Batwoman titles were invented.


Actually, Batgirl and Batwoman were created because people were accusing Batman and Robin of being gay. Since there were, and still are, people stupid enough to think that that's wrong, of course, as characters we know that that's just wrong, but it has nothing to do with the idea of being gay, Bette and Kathy Kane were created to serve as the objects of their affection. 

And no, it's not sex neutral either. During "No Man's Land", Helena Bertinelli acted as Batman since Bruce wasn't around. There's a funny interaction where a guy, after getting saved by her, comments that he was thought Batman was a man. 

Her response is great, not using quotes because I don't remember the exact wording: 

If you were a criminal, would you rather tell people you were beaten up by a 6 foot tall, buff man, or a tiny woman?

----------


## Caivu

> But it's the context behind his decisions that has changed. Less supportive, more manipulative.


Okay. So what?





> It's hard to deny that Tynion has rebooted Kate Kane, I actually had this debate with Caivu before.


He's not rebooted anything about her. Just expanded some things.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Actually, Batgirl and Batwoman were created because people were accusing Batman and Robin of being gay. Since there were, and still are, people stupid enough to think that that's wrong, of course, as characters we know that that's just wrong, but it has nothing to do with the idea of being gay, Bette and Kathy Kane were created to serve as the objects of their affection. 
> 
> And no, it's not sex neutral either. During "No Man's Land", Helena Bertinelli acted as Batman since Bruce wasn't around. There's a funny interaction where a guy, after getting saved by her, comments that he was thought Batman was a man. 
> 
> Her response is great, not using quotes because I don't remember the exact wording: 
> 
> If you were a criminal, would you rather tell people you were beaten up by a 6 foot tall, buff man, or a tiny woman?


Bat-girl was created because of the homophobia, Batgirl was created because they wanted a female Batman counterpart.

Its not sex neutral, its in the name. Playing dress up doesn't change that, I can buy Rose Wilson becoming Deathstroke because THAT is sex neutral or Emiko Queen becoming Green Arrow for that matter. Bat*MAN* is not sex neutral, Tigress likewise is not sex neutral. Now if they called her Batmaiden, Lady Bat or even Lady Batman I might agree but Batman by itself is not sex neutral. There is a reason Riri Williams is called Ironheart, even a company with a heavy handed liberal agenda(outwardly atleast) realized that they couldn't actually call her Iron Man.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Okay. So what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's not rebooted anything about her. Just expanded some things.


Its a reboot.

----------


## Assam

> Bat-girl was created because of the homophobia, Batgirl was created because they wanted a female Batman counterpart.
> 
> Its not sex neutral, its in the name. Playing dress up doesn't change that, I can buy Rose Wilson becoming Deathstroke because THAT is sex neutral or Emiko Queen becoming Green Arrow for that matter. Bat*MAN* is not sex neutral, Tigress likewise is not sex neutral. Now if they called her Batmaiden, Lady Bat or even Lady Batman I might agree but Batman by itself is not sex neutral. There is a reason Riri Williams is called Ironheart, even a company with a heavy handed liberal agenda(outwardly atleast) realized that they couldn't actually call her Iron Man.


I was actually very disappointed when it turned out Riri was called Ironheart and not Iron Man. 

And fine, if you REALLY want to be technical, then lets just say that when she's out as Batman, her body is completely covered, and her breasts, which, when drawn properly, are actually rather small,  would be made unseeable. Happy?

----------


## Caivu

> Its a reboot.


And your argument for that is...?

You can't just say "it is" and leave it at that, c'mon. Let's hear some reasoning.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> And your argument for that is...?
> 
> You can't just say "it is" and leave it at that, c'mon. Let's hear some reasoning.


We've been through it before though and Nightwinglvl has pretty much covered how I feel.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I was actually very disappointed when it turned out Riri was called Ironheart and not Iron Man. 
> 
> And fine, if you REALLY want to be technical, then lets just say that when she's out as Batman, her body is completely covered, and her breasts, which, when drawn properly, are actually rather small,  would be made unseeable. Happy?


Which proves my point.

I guess guys like Joker, Bane and Dent will be fooled by that. Oh hey Bruce you just shrunk and lost quite a bit of body mass, what the hell happened lol what difference does an average Gothamite make? when the villains and supporting characters can spot the difference from a mile away.

----------


## Assam

Bruce has a different body type from plenty of the guys in the Batfamily too. Jason and Jean-Paul come close, but Dick and Tim are a lot more slim, and we have no idea what Damian will be like when he's older.

----------


## millernumber1

> Bruce has a different body type from plenty of the guys in the Batfamily too. Jason and Jean-Paul come close, but Dick and Tim are a lot more slim, and we have no idea what Damian will be like when he's older.


Untrue, Batman 666 and the followups show what he might look like grown up and in the cowl.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Untrue, Batman 666 and the followups show what he might look like grown up and in the cowl.


Yeah, forgot about that. But that's just a potential future. It's equally possible that what Alfred foretold will come to pass, and, because he doesn't sleep much, Damian will remain tiny forever.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Bruce has a different body type from plenty of the guys in the Batfamily too. Jason and Jean-Paul come close, but Dick and Tim are a lot more slim, and we have no idea what Damian will be like when he's older.


Bruce's biggest villains will be able to spot the difference from light years away.

----------


## Assam

> Bruce's biggest villains will be able to spot the difference from light years away.


Very true. But do you not think ANYONE should be Batman after Bruce? Because the Bat symbol is a lot bigger than just one man.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Very true. But do you not think ANYONE should be Batman after Bruce? Because the Bat symbol is a lot bigger than just one man.


There's no point, Bruce will never die. Successors will always be temporary unless they completely flip the settings like they did with Batman Beyond but even that series is past its prime.
Dick can replace Bruce in the interim because he actually deserves it, he has the history to back it up.

----------


## Assam

> There's no point, Bruce will never die. Successors will always be temporary unless they completely flip the settings like they did with Batman Beyond but even that series is past its prime.
> Dick can replace Bruce in the interim because he actually deserves it, he has the history to back it up.


And just like that, we come full circle. Because if its a matter of who "Deserves to take Bruce's place while he travels through time for a year", then I'd say the people who "deserve" it are the ones who are straight up better than Bruce in the key aspects of being Batman. Tim's a better detective, and Cass is a better fighter. 

And yes, obviously, Bruce will never die for good...at least unless I take over DC Comics one day XD

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Bat-girl was created because of the homophobia, Batgirl was created because they wanted a female Batman counterpart.
> 
> Its not sex neutral, its in the name. Playing dress up doesn't change that, I can buy Rose Wilson becoming Deathstroke because THAT is sex neutral or Emiko Queen becoming Green Arrow for that matter. Bat*MAN* is not sex neutral, Tigress likewise is not sex neutral. Now if they called her Batmaiden, Lady Bat or even Lady Batman I might agree but Batman by itself is not sex neutral. There is a reason Riri Williams is called Ironheart, even a company with a heavy handed liberal agenda(outwardly atleast) realized that they couldn't actually call her Iron Man.


Batman could be a woman, it would simply be a woman calling herself BATMAN. It's just a name/title.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, forgot about that. But that's just a potential future. It's equally possible that what Alfred foretold will come to pass, and, because he doesn't sleep much, Damian will remain tiny forever.


Batgirl #17 reference!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Batman could be a woman, it would simply be a woman calling herself BATMAN. It's just a name/title.


I don't see what is wrong with "The Bat". (Though I could do without "The Batt"  :Wink:  ).

----------


## Assam

> Batgirl #17 reference!


I may or may not have re-read that issue earlier today, because Steph and Cass's respective Batgirl books are pretty much my favorite things ever.  :Wink:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Batman could be a woman, it would simply be a woman calling herself BATMAN. It's just a name/title.


It's a name/title that is *not sex neutral*

----------


## Assam

Dude, I am a man. And sometimes when I go to a convention, I cosplay as Batgirl. Explain to me how this is any different from Cass, Steph, Helena, or Kate deciding to dress up and act as Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> I may or may not have re-read that issue earlier today, because Steph and Cass's respective Batgirl books are pretty much my favorite things ever.


Yes! They are amazing.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> And just like that, we come full circle. Because if its a matter of who "Deserves to take Bruce's place while he travels through time for a year", then I'd say the people who "deserve" it are the ones who are straight up better than Bruce in the key aspects of being Batman. Tim's a better detective, and Cass is a better fighter. 
> 
> And yes, obviously, Bruce will never die for good...at least unless I take over DC Comics one day XD



And storywise that hold no consequence, writers would want someone different not a Bruce clone just slightly better in some area. It's all about switching the settings and flipping everything.
You'd have to take over WB.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Dude, I am a man. And sometimes when I go to a convention, I cosplay as Batgirl. Explain to me how this is any different from Cass, Steph, Helena, or Kate deciding to dress up and act as Batman.


Never said they couldn't play dress up.

----------


## Assam

> And storywise that hold no consequence, writers would want someone different not a Bruce clone just slightly better in some area. It's all about switching the settings and flipping everything.
> You'd have to take over WB.


No consequence? Tim is a computer nerd who enjoys having a social life outside of his heroics, and Cass is a socially confused sweetheart. Both of these characters would make for far different Batman stories than Bruce. Characters are NOT their abilities.

----------


## Assam

> Never said they couldn't play dress up.


Do I really need to go out there and fight crime in my Batgirl costume to convince you of my point?! Cause off my meds, I'm crazy and stupid enough to try that!

----------


## robert

> It's a name/title that is *not sex neutral*


Can someone please call *Nicole Kidman* and tell her:

1 she should act like a *Kid*
2 she should gender swap
3 or she should change her name to *Nicole GrownUpWoman*

;-)

----------


## darkseidpwns

> No consequence? Tim is a computer nerd who enjoys having a social life outside of his heroics, and Cass is a socially confused sweetheart. Both of these characters would make for far different Batman stories than Bruce. Characters are NOT their abilities.


You mentioned their abilities to prove they are worthy. By the same token they might as well make Babs Batman because she's smarter than Drake and better with computers and JPV should be Batman because he is much more dangerous than Cass and equally a socially awkward sweet heart. Every Batfamily character can be Batman, Anti Batmen villains could be Batman.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Can someone please call *Nicole Kidman* and tell her:
> 
> 1 she should act like a *Kid*
> 2 she should gender swap
> 3 or she should change her name to *Nicole GrownUpWoman*
> 
> ;-)


Nice strawman there pal. But Batman, Superman, Omni man, Spider- Man were named because of their sex. It's why there are derivative characters like Batgirl, Supergirl etc. That's fact and besides Kidman, Osterman etc are not pronounced like MAN. Jesus cant believe this is even an argument. Why not off Wonder Woman and replace her with a guy? just a title right. Make Alfred the new Batgirl too while we're at it.

----------


## dancj

> Nice strawman there pal. But Batman, Superman, Omni man, Spider- Man were named because of their sex.


Spider-Man isn't a great example.  He called himself Spider-Man when he was still a boy - and no-one minded.

It's a bit moot though.  She doesn't need to keep the "man" in the title to take the role.  As someone said above "The Bat" is fine.  And if she does insist on keeping the "man" then I'm not going to be the one to tell her she can't.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Bruce has already been replaced 3 times in the past 30 years and each time returns as top dog. Azbats and GordonBats had solid runs but will never measure up to other Batman stories while Dick has his run with Damian and Black Mirror which will always be a solid non-Bruce stories. I'f you include Batman Beyond then eventually you must ebb the rate of doppelgängers because it becomes stale and unoriginal. And honestly the whole Tim is a better Detective or Cass is a better fighter are really held to Comic Book circles. If you were to suggest this to someone outside of comics who fuel most of the money Batman brings to D.C./WB they will either not know them or completely disagree with that statement or their inclusion in the story.

----------


## VolcanikTiger86

> 1.) Cain


I can see how Cassie would be hard to right when she is a complete and utter badass which is borderline Mary Sue. 




> 2.) Brown doesn't click with me unless she is Batgirl


I have to agree when she became Batgirl and earned Bruce’s respect and then N52




> 4.) Drake has been horrible since at least the New52 and Rebirth hasn't helped a lick.


I think Tim leaving Steph and his friends is a OOC moment, but other than that I think that he was written quite well and it lead to that hug. 




> 5.) Azreal


Please tell me he isn’t counted as a Bat family member, never did like him. 




> 6.) I have never liked Huntress until Grayson, and had been bad in Rebirth.


I think I like her if written by Gail Simione but otherwise it’s a hit or miss heavy on the miss




> 7.) General overcrowding of a Batfamily


I personally think that the Batfamily should be Bruce, Babs, Dick, Tim, Steph, and Damien. 
Jason was the Robin fans voted to kill, Duke Thomas seems to be a pain, Harper Row I haven’t heard good things about the only possible addition would be Katie but not sure what code name to give her. 




> 8.) That didn't need to be reintroduced into the New52, especially since their rushed reintroductions mean that they have less experience, none of their classic stories, and inferior origins.


Yes I agree with this 




> 9.) The New52 didn't go far far enough in character cutdowns.


I don’t know about that, I don’t know if Jason should have come back or Bluebird. Then again see above my Batfamily is about 7 characters. 




> 10.) Introducing the 90's cast along with the new New52 characters means that the Batfamily is the largest and most overcrowded and bloated it's ever been.


Can we get confirmation on who the hell the members of the batfamily are I mean does Gotham Girl count for example. 




> -I like Damian Wayne


I don’t like him, he is my second to last favourite Robin (the only other one is Jason)




> -He should have stayed dead


Kinda think he should 




> -Nobody knows what to do with him in the Bat-Office. Robin should be the second half of "Batman and..." But he is noticeably absent, and it reflects poorly on Bruce.


Well my understanding is that Robin should be Batman’s partner so yeah 





> -Dick Grayson was the best Robin


To some my fav is Tim




> -Dick Grayson is a better Batman than Bruce


I humbly disagree




> -Dick Grayson is best as Nightwing


I agree 




> -Dick Grayson is the best.


No comment 





> -Agent 37 was well written and interesting, it suited Dick's character well, but it was not a natual progression for the character.


Havent read Grayson yet. Is it any good. 




> -I like the idea of Babs as Batwoman


Hear Hear I agree




> -Making Kate Kane Bruce's cousin made me like her less.


Well Bruce is meant to be an orphan if he has family does that label still apply. 




> Ew, why?


Really you going to say Ew to a mantle being passed to a character who before the 52 had long since earned it. 




> Why?


Well the only thing I can think of is if Bruce’s identity as a orphan comes into question which is a important part of the character well to me anyway. 




> Someone in one of the Batgirl threads mentioned the idea, and I really like it. She was introduced as a PhD, served as a senator, and even after reboots is still an adult. It seems disrespectful to call her Batgirl. Her youthful name is also why she's being written like a moron despite having 25 years on everybody but Dick and Jason. In theory, Oracle would be a good mantle, but in execution it relegates her to a supporting character. And while that may still sound like a good concept, I find that in execution, this only serves to dumb down Batman's detective skills or work as a hacking plot device (my least favorite trope.) Barbara will always be seen as 'Batgirl,' but it wouldn't be a hard sell for people to buy her as 'Batwoman.' *I know that it won't happen though because Kate Kane has the mantle*.


Mantles can be passed on




> I'm not concerned with those other people. I'm talking about from the standpoint of Kate's story. Batman just happens to be there at the right time, just so she can get inspired by him? Nuh-uh. Pure coincidence. It's an awesome moment in Elegy, but that aspect of it always bugged me a bit.


You could relate it to a case he was working on or they could be old friends it’s just before she was introduced Bruce was an orphan with no family now he has family.

----------


## Assam

Just gonna comment on a few things:

Cass is NOT a mary sue. She just hasn't been written consistently well since before Infinite Crisis. 

Steph as Batgirl is indeed amazing. 

Azrael is indeed a member of the Family. In the late 90's and early 2000's, the core team was made of him, Tim, Dick, and Cass. 

My favorite Robin, by a large margin, is Stephanie Brown. 

Dick Grayson, by a small margin from Jason, is my least favorite Robin.

----------


## Carabas

> Well Bruce is meant to be an orphan if he has family does that label still apply.


An orphan isn't somebody who has no family.

----------


## robert

> Nice strawman there pal. But Batman, Superman, Omni man, Spider- Man were named because of their sex. It's why there are derivative characters like Batgirl, Supergirl etc. That's fact and besides Kidman, Osterman etc are not pronounced like MAN. Jesus cant believe this is even an argument. Why not off Wonder Woman and replace her with a guy? just a title right. Make Alfred the new Batgirl too while we're at it.


Actually, as Batman was created, there was no need to distinguish him from a potential Batwoman. The man part of his name is there to emphasize, that he is a *human* dressed as a Bat.

----------


## millernumber1

> Azrael is indeed a member of the Family. In the late 90's and early 2000's, the core team was made of him, Tim, Dick, and Cass. 
> 
> My favorite Robin, by a large margin, is Stephanie Brown.


FRIEND! Steph as Robin was so much fun (except when she got fired). I have nearly every issue she appears as Robin (including Robin #101!  :Wink:  ).

It's so strange for me to read some of those NML issues where Azrael is so close to the inner circle of the Batfamily, and then vanishes. I know he was replaced by Michael Lane and such, but I've never read any of that Azrael series or appearances, so to me, Azrael always is the Knightfall character in my mind (particularly from the radio drama) - which is why I'm enjoying him currently in Tec, since he has the tendency to go all "I AM THE FURIOUS VENGEANCE BLAH BLAH BLAH" when Tynion's writing him that makes me smile.

----------


## Assam

> FRIEND! Steph as Robin was so much fun (except when she got fired). I have nearly every issue she appears as Robin (including Robin #101!  ).
> 
> It's so strange for me to read some of those NML issues where Azrael is so close to the inner circle of the Batfamily, and then vanishes. I know he was replaced by Michael Lane and such, but I've never read any of that Azrael series or appearances, so to me, Azrael always is the Knightfall character in my mind (particularly from the radio drama) - which is why I'm enjoying him currently in Tec, since he has the tendency to go all "I AM THE FURIOUS VENGEANCE BLAH BLAH BLAH" when Tynion's writing him that makes me smile.



Michael Lane is the one member of the Batfamily, if he even counts, that I know barely anything about. I really like Jean-Paul though. Probably has something to do with the fact that No Man's Land is my favorite Batman story of all time. I'm happy to see him back on the 'Tec team, though I'd rather they revisited his odd friendship with Cass than whatever it is they're doing with him and Batwing now.

----------


## millernumber1

> Michael Lane is the one member of the Batfamily, if he even counts, that I know barely anything about. I really like Jean-Paul though. Probably has something to do with the fact that No Man's Land is my favorite Batman story of all time. I'm happy to see him back on the 'Tec team, though I'd rather they revisited his odd friendship with Cass than whatever it is they're doing with him and Batwing now.


NML is such a rich story, with so many great issues and characters. I can't love it, though, because the ending just sours the entire thing. Perhaps that's my current controversial opinion: killing off Sarah Essen-Gordon makes NML unnecessarily cheap tragedy.

----------


## Assam

> NML is such a rich story, with so many great issues and characters. I can't love it, though, because the ending just sours the entire thing. Perhaps that's my current controversial opinion: killing off Sarah Essen-Gordon makes NML unnecessarily cheap tragedy.


It definitely wasn't a good plot point, but it didn't ruin the whole thing for me.

----------


## ProgmanX

> NML is such a rich story, with so many great issues and characters. I can't love it, though, because the ending just sours the entire thing. Perhaps that's my current controversial opinion: killing off Sarah Essen-Gordon makes NML unnecessarily cheap tragedy.


I still think the death of Sarah Essen-Gordon was devastating...but an appropriate end. NML was _already_ over. The government had reincorporated the city, and reconstruction efforts had begun. Laws were officially back in effect. Even in the biggest, most unstoppable nightmare that Gotham would ever have to face, the one thing Batman could never prevent under any circumstance, the city survived by banding together. It wasn't just a sacrifice made by Bruce or Alfred or Dick, but _everyone_. 

And it was only when things were all said and done that the Joker chooses to act. Sure, he made a few things happen across the story, but it was small random potatoes since he was kinda bored. Since, if he started causing death and destruction when it was _everything had already descended into chaos and anarchy_ there would be no point, in his mind. If he wants to spread the most chaos, and to fuck with the most people, and to promote the most painful of dramatic ironies...giving Sarah a choice between the death of infants or her own is perfect. 

He enacted his plan and killed her only after he knew that the GCPD could no longer kill him without hesitation. That's why he walks outside and immediately surrenders. The point is that the law shackles them, but is irrelevant to him in a way they hadn't really...fully seen before. They hadn't lived in HIS world before, not to that extent. But they did, and they came out the other side, and through this they all learn that even in that nightmare, even after surviving that hell...Joker is worse than all of it. 

He IS No Man's Land, and Sarah's sacrifice is just one of another hundreds or thousands they will have to endure without end. But they CAN endure it.

However, if he actually did kill the children anyway, then I'd agree with you.

----------


## millernumber1

> I still think the death of Sarah Essen-Gordon was devastating...but an appropriate end. NML was _already_ over. The government had reincorporated the city, and reconstruction efforts had begun. Laws were officially back in effect. Even in the biggest, most unstoppable nightmare that Gotham would ever have to face, the one thing Batman could never prevent under any circumstance, the city survived by banding together. It wasn't just a sacrifice made by Bruce or Alfred or Dick, but _everyone_. 
> 
> And it was only when things were all said and done that the Joker chooses to act. Sure, he made a few things happen across the story, but it was small random potatoes since he was kinda bored. Since, if he started causing death and destruction when it was _everything had already descended into chaos and anarchy_ there would be no point, in his mind. If he wants to spread the most chaos, and to fuck with the most people, and to promote the most painful of dramatic ironies...giving Sarah a choice between the death of infants or her own is perfect. 
> 
> He enacted his plan and killed her only after he knew that the GCPD could no longer kill him without hesitation. That's why he walks outside and immediately surrenders. The point is that the law shackles them, but is irrelevant to him in a way they hadn't really...fully seen before. They hadn't lived in HIS world before, not to that extent. But they did, and they came out the other side, and through this they all learn that even in that nightmare, even after surviving that hell...Joker is worse than all of it. 
> 
> He IS No Man's Land, and Sarah's sacrifice is just one of another hundreds or thousands they will have to endure without end. But they CAN endure it.
> 
> However, if he actually did kill the children anyway, then I'd agree with you.


I'm not saying it doesn't have justification, I just do not like the story because of it. (Also, I hate the Joker and wish he were dead immediately after Jason's death. No takebacks.)

----------


## Carabas

> I still think the death of Sarah Essen-Gordon was devastating...but an appropriate end. NML was _already_ over. The government had reincorporated the city, and reconstruction efforts had begun. Laws were officially back in effect. Even in the biggest, most unstoppable nightmare that Gotham would ever have to face, the one thing Batman could never prevent under any circumstance, the city survived by banding together. It wasn't just a sacrifice made by Bruce or Alfred or Dick, but _everyone_. 
> 
> And it was only when things were all said and done that the Joker chooses to act. Sure, he made a few things happen across the story, but it was small random potatoes since he was kinda bored. Since, if he started causing death and destruction when it was _everything had already descended into chaos and anarchy_ there would be no point, in his mind. If he wants to spread the most chaos, and to fuck with the most people, and to promote the most painful of dramatic ironies...giving Sarah a choice between the death of infants or her own is perfect. 
> 
> He enacted his plan and killed her only after he knew that the GCPD could no longer kill him without hesitation. That's why he walks outside and immediately surrenders. The point is that the law shackles them, but is irrelevant to him in a way they hadn't really...fully seen before. They hadn't lived in HIS world before, not to that extent. But they did, and they came out the other side, and through this they all learn that even in that nightmare, even after surviving that hell...Joker is worse than all of it. 
> 
> He IS No Man's Land, and Sarah's sacrifice is just one of another hundreds or thousands they will have to endure without end. But they CAN endure it.
> 
> However, if he actually did kill the children anyway, then I'd agree with you.


On one hand it was an incredibly powerful, effective scene, easily the best use of the Joker in the last 20 years... 

On the other hand it still was yet another fridging of a beloved character.

And you know what, Jason frelling Todd first got a monument in the Batcave, and then his own book when he came back to life. Sarah's life and death probably are not even canon anymore.

----------


## Assam

> On one hand it was an incredibly powerful, effective scene, easily the best use of the Joker in the last 20 years... 
> 
> On the other hand it still was yet another fridging of a beloved character.
> 
> And you know what, Jason frelling Todd first got a monument in the Batcave, and then his own book when he came back to life. Sarah's life and death probably are not even canon anymore.


Jim Gordon was never married in the new continuity, F**K you New 52.

----------


## millernumber1

> Jim Gordon was never married in the new continuity, F**K you New 52.


Wait, what? I thought he was married then divorced from Barbara Sr., per Simone's Batgirl run?

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

When and where was Michael Lane, I've read about every trade from NML to Black Mirror and I can't think or remember many apperance by him. Did he have hsi own Azreal book or something?

----------


## Aahz

> When and where was Michael Lane, I've read about every trade from NML to Black Mirror and I can't think or remember many apperance by him. Did he have hsi own Azreal book or something?


He had his own series (18 issues) in the end of the pre flashpoint continuity.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Actually, as Batman was created, there was no need to distinguish him from a potential Batwoman. The man part of his name is there to emphasize, that he is a *human* dressed as a Bat.


The original Bruce Wayne was a man, there is nothing ambiguous about it, please stop grasping at straws.

----------


## Mutant God

Lex Luthor would make a great member for the Court of Owls.

I don't like Lincoln March and Simon Hurt having the name Thomas Wayne as their "real names", in fact I don't like any villain having the name Thomas Wayne.

----------


## btmarine23

Red Hood, Cass and Spoiler together infiltrating crime families, doing stuff Bruce doesn't have time for, dodging law enforcement, corporate espionage and other stuff not involving super powers..maybe its not controversial but is a bit wish listing.

 Also put Damian in the Batman title as Robin and leave him there.  I think he should be with his father as Robin and his son..all the time.  Batman and Robin.

----------


## Assam

> Red Hood, Cass and Spoiler together infiltrating crime families, doing stuff Bruce doesn't have time for, dodging law enforcement, corporate espionage and other stuff not involving super powers..maybe its not controversial but is a bit wish listing.
> 
>  Also put Damian in the Batman title as Robin and leave him there.  I think he should be with his father as Robin and his son..all the time.  Batman and Robin.


The first one I'd love! Jason isn't my favorite Robin (in fact he's ranked 5th) but I still like him a lot, and seeing him interact with the Batgirlfriends could be a lot of fun. Plus, they're 3 of the bats who work best when they're kept AWAY from supernatural stuff. 

Disagree on the second opinion. In my book, Dick and Damian are a much better team than Bruce and Damian.

----------


## rev516

> Red Hood, Cass and Spoiler together infiltrating crime families, doing stuff Bruce doesn't have time for, dodging law enforcement, corporate espionage and other stuff not involving super powers..maybe its not controversial but is a bit wish listing.
> 
>  Also put Damian in the Batman title as Robin and leave him there.  I think he should be with his father as Robin and his son..all the time.  Batman and Robin.


The second one I agree with fully. Bruce and Damian are the one true dynamic duo to me.

----------


## phantom1592

> Also put Damian in the Batman title as Robin and leave him there.  I think he should be with his father as Robin and his son..all the time.  Batman and Robin.


I KIND of agree with this... I mean, I hate Damian and think he's a terrible character... but he IS Robin. There is a constant push that Batman needs a Robin (which I agree with), then they keep trying to age him up, spin him off, put him on teams and solos... and he's not filling the role that he was made for. 

I loved Tim's Solo Robin series... But Damian has had too much of a push in too many different directions. If the writers insist there must be Batman and Robin... then HAVE Batman and ROBIN...

----------


## Assam

Although not a member of the Batfamily, Charlie Gage-Radcliffe is the third best character to use the Batgirl mantle.

----------


## Fergus

> I KIND of agree with this... I mean, I hate Damian and think he's a terrible character... but he IS Robin. There is a constant push that Batman needs a Robin (which I agree with), then they keep trying to age him up, spin him off, put him on teams and solos... and he's not filling the role that he was made for. 
> 
> I loved Tim's Solo Robin series... But Damian has had too much of a push in too many different directions. If the writers insist there must be Batman and Robin... then HAVE Batman and ROBIN...


I disagree Damian wasn't made to be Robin He has shown that he is more than just Robin. As a Damian fan while I miss him on the batbooks and love his partnership with Bruce I prefer the current direction they are taking with him.
Supersons is a really great concept, he is amazing in TT and his guest spots in Nightwing are pure magic. This is a better direction and use of the character.

I won't mind Damian in the batbooks but I strongly dis agree with the leave him there part. Everything he's doing outside the batbooks since rebirth has been great so I would like that to continue.


And no Batman does not need Robin that was just an excuse to force the red ham burglar into the family.

----------


## millernumber1

> Although not a member of the Batfamily, Charlie Gage-Radcliffe is the third best character to use the Batgirl mantle.


Haha, I love Huntress more than Charlie, but I never think of her as Batgirl.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Haha, I love Huntress more than Charlie, but I never think of her as Batgirl.


Helena is weird for me. I love Birds of Prey, and she's had tons of great moments, but she's never really been a character that connected with me. 

And yeah, out of the three unofficial Batgirls, Helena is the one I have the hardest time actually calling Batgirl. I've always thought of her stint during NML as more of a rookie Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> Helena is weird for me. I love Birds of Prey, and she's had tons of great moments, but she's never really been a character that connected with me. 
> 
> And yeah, out of the three unofficial Batgirls, Helena is the one I have the hardest time actually calling Batgirl. I've always thought of her stint during NML as more of a rookie Batman.


I think it makes sense, though, since Catholicism is such a deep part of Helena's character.  :Smile:  Her story in Birds of Prey, from someone who's so angry and isolated she has nothing holding her back from lethal justice, to someone who is a vital, valued part of a family again, is one of my very favorites (and if she'd had a run like Steph, she might have supplanted her as my favorite purple clad heroine, since I actually loved Helena first, since I got into comics more heavily right after War Games, which wasn't a very Steph-rich period, but it was a golden era for Helena).

I don't know about rookie Batman - she was The Bat. She never called herself Batgirl, and only took the mask because it worked, not because she really bought into Bruce's crusade like any of the other Batgirls. (What's the third, in your view - Betty/Bette? I wish there was more stuff for all of them - Bette, Babs, Helena, Cass, Charlie, Steph, Nissa, and Carrie. Wow, eight of em. I wonder how many Robins there would be if you counted all the alternates...Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, Damian, Robot, Tris, the billion We Are Robins)

----------


## Assam

> I think it makes sense, though, since Catholicism is such a deep part of Helena's character.  Her story in Birds of Prey, from someone who's so angry and isolated she has nothing holding her back from lethal justice, to someone who is a vital, valued part of a family again, is one of my very favorites (and if she'd had a run like Steph, she might have supplanted her as my favorite purple clad heroine, since I actually loved Helena first, since I got into comics more heavily right after War Games, which wasn't a very Steph-rich period, but it was a golden era for Helena).
> 
> I don't know about rookie Batman - she was The Bat. She never called herself Batgirl, and only took the mask because it worked, not because she really bought into Bruce's crusade like any of the other Batgirls. (What's the third, in your view - Betty/Bette? I wish there was more stuff for all of them - Bette, Babs, Helena, Cass, Charlie, Steph, Nissa, and Carrie. Wow, eight of em. I wonder how many Robins there would be if you counted all the alternates...Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, Damian, Robot, Tris, the billion We Are Robins)


Bette was the third I was thinking of, yeah.

And yeah, the extended Batfamily is freaking massive.

----------


## hotroddii

Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Kate Kane, Maggie Sawyer, Renee Montana, Nocturna, Holly Robinson, Karon, ... possibly Harper and Julia ... 

... too many lesbian/bi-sexual women in the bat universe .... especially in relation to gay male characters.

----------


## Assam

> Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Kate Kane, Maggie Sawyer, Renee Montana, Nocturna, Holly Robinson, Karon, ... possibly Harper and Julia ... 
> 
> ... too many lesbian/bi-sexual women in the bat universe .... especially in relation to gay male characters.


Haprer IS confirmed bi-sexual. 

Why do you have a problem with the number? "Over-representation" is not a thing. Would it be better if more guys than just Cullen were LGBT? Of course. I'm personally of the opinion that *when they're older,* Damian and Jon Ken would make a really cute couple. So yeah, wish there were more LGBT men, but there's nothing wrong with the amount of LGBT women.

----------


## The tall man

Batman does not need a Robin or the Bat-Family at all, they only serve to criticize and hold him back.

No one is the rightful heir to the mantle of Batman, when Bruce dies so should the mantle die with him.

Bruce and the bat-symbol are one in the same, on one but him should wear it unless sanctioned by him.

----------


## Assam

> Batman does not need a Robin or the Bat-Family at all, they only serve to criticize and hold him back.
> 
> No one is the rightful heir to the mantle of Batman, when Bruce dies so should the mantle die with him.
> 
> Bruce and the bat-symbol are one in the same, on one but him should wear it unless sanctioned by him.


1. Take away the Batfamily from existence, and Bruce is dead, and Gotham, and probably the world, are f**ked many times over. And that's ignoring that while he may be my personal least favorite (Besides Snyder's pets), he's still an objectively worse character than half the Family. 

2. There are several people worthy in terms of skill and dedication to be the heir. Bruce is not the symbol, it's not his to die with, as shown...

3. 

Not you.jpg

Also, a million other examples of the Bat being a separate entity, but that's the one that comes to my mind the most.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I disagree Damian wasn't made to be Robin He has shown that he is more than just Robin. As a Damian fan while I miss him on the batbooks and love his partnership with Bruce I prefer the current direction they are taking with him.
> Supersons is a really great concept, he is amazing in TT and his guest spots in Nightwing are pure magic. This is a better direction and use of the character.
> 
> I won't mind Damian in the batbooks but I strongly dis agree with the leave him there part. Everything he's doing outside the batbooks since rebirth has been great so I would like that to continue.
> 
> 
> And no Batman does not need Robin that was just an excuse to force the red ham burglar into the family.


I love what they're doing with Damian as well. I wouldn't trade TT and Super-Sons for anything. But don't you think he should be working with Bruce as well? Isn't that the point of being 'Robin', the partner to Batman? But as you said above, I wouldn't want him there permanently. I just really feel they cut Damian's time as Robin at Batman's side way too short.

----------


## TheSupernaut

Bruce Wayne and Helena Bertinelli would have made a really dynamic couple during the Pre-Flashpoint era. They oozed unresolved sexual tension.

----------


## Aahz

They should give Gordon his white hair back.

----------


## The tall man

> 1. Take away the Batfamily from existence, and Bruce is dead, and Gotham, and probably the world, are f**ked many times over. And that's ignoring that while he may be my personal least favorite (Besides Snyder's pets), he's still an objectively worse character than half the Family. 
> 
> 2. There are several people worthy in terms of skill and dedication to be the heir. Bruce is not the symbol, it's not his to die with, as shown...
> 
> 3. 
> 
> Not you.jpg
> 
> Also, a million other examples of the Bat being a separate entity, but that's the one that comes to my mind the most.


The Bat-Family owe their existence to Bruce, he in no way needs them for anything and is head and shoulders a much better character than all of them put together. He has acomplished more good and endured more pain and sacrifice for the "mission" than all the so-called family.

Bruce is the symbol, he created the symbol when he put on the cowl, without him the symbol does not exist. He can do whatever he wants with it because it is his and his alone. And if someone else wants to wear the symbol then they need Batman's approval. You cannot take what is not yours, the symbol is not theirs. 

Bruce and the Bat are one in the same, the Bat was born from within him. You cannot separate the two and no one else but him has a claim to be the Bat. And when he dies the Bat will die with him because no one will ever surpass him as batman.

----------


## Assam

> The Bat-Family owe their existence to Bruce, he in no way needs them for anything and is head and shoulders a much better character than all of them put together. He has acomplished more good and endured more pain and sacrifice for the "mission" than all the so-called family.
> 
> Bruce is the symbol, he created the symbol when he put on the cowl, without him the symbol does not exist. He can do whatever he wants with it because it is his and his alone. And if someone else wants to wear the symbol then they need Batman's approval. You cannot take what is not yours, the symbol is not theirs. 
> 
> Bruce and the Bat are one in the same, the Bat was born from within him. You cannot separate the two and no one else but him has a claim to be the Bat. And when he dies the Bat will die with him because no one will ever surpass him as batman.


I mean, none of those are facts to support your opinions, just re-stating what your opinions are, but I suppose facts aren't ALWAYS necessary for opinions. Sometimes people,myself included, just feel a certain way. 

Even if they're way off base.

----------


## Caivu

> The Bat-Family owe their existence to Bruce, he in no way needs them for anything *and is head and shoulders a much better character than all of them put together.*


Okay, that bolded bit is just silly.

----------


## millernumber1

> Bruce Wayne and Helena Bertinelli would have made a really dynamic couple during the Pre-Flashpoint era. They oozed unresolved sexual tension.


Interesting. I think they're too similar, and would never really get along. Plus, she hooked up with Nightwing, and I'm not a fan of the way Winick handled Talia and Jason.

----------


## Assam

> and I'm not a fan of the way Winick...


...does anything!

----------


## Fergus

> I love what they're doing with Damian as well. I wouldn't trade TT and Super-Sons for anything. But don't you think he should be working with Bruce as well? Isn't that the point of being 'Robin', the partner to Batman? But as you said above, I wouldn't want him there permanently. I just really feel they cut Damian's time as Robin at Batman's side way too short.


In an ideal world Damian would be in a B&R book, Supersons , TT and Nightwing but that would be 4 books and Damian might be the son of Batman but he isn't Batman. I miss Damian in the batbooks but I wouldn't trade where he is now for that.

I wish he had more time at Batman's side but it is what it is in the meantime i'm just enjoying whenever batman and robin pop up in other titles

----------


## millernumber1

> ...does anything!


Haha - well, I like Under the Hood okay. But yeah, everything else, nope.

----------


## Pohzee

I do find it telling that the must read Batman stories --Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, etc-- contain few to no Batfamily members and instead use characters like Gordon, Alfred, and Catwoman as Bruce's supporting characters.

----------


## Assam

> I do find it telling that the must read Batman stories --Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, etc-- contain few to no Batfamily members and instead use characters like Gordon, Alfred, and Catwoman as Bruce's supporting characters.


At the same time though, some of the BEST Batman storyLINES are filled with Batfamily. No Man's Land, Hush, Knightfall, etc. 

Plus, I know I'm not alone in thinking DKR, Long Halloween, and to a lesser extent Year One are very overrated.

Besides, most of the Batfamily have had an abundance of their own amazing storylines. Just aren't as appreciated cause they're not Batman.

----------


## Caivu

> I do find it telling that the must read Batman stories --Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, etc-- contain few to no Batfamily members and instead use characters like Gordon, Alfred, and Catwoman as Bruce's supporting characters.


That's not really a fair comparison. The ones you mentioned either take place before the Batfamily was established, were _written_ before a lot of them were even created, or take place in another universe entirely.

Plus they've all had ~30 years to reach "classic" status.

----------


## Aioros22

On the other hand "Robin" in Millerverse is a main character and essentail to the story. It was the death of one that made him stop and the coming of another saved his life and gave him new lease to keep going. No beef to whoever feels Batman is a better character than "all combined", those are opinions. I find it silly but it raises no eyebrow to me. But it does when claiming Batman has suffered and endured more pain or traumatic experiences than any of his satellite or supporting characters. 

Did he? He had loving people helping him deal with his trauma, others weren`t as lucky.

----------


## Assam

> Did he? He had loving people helping him deal with his trauma, others weren`t as lucky.


Exactly.

 Bruce at least had Alfred and some other figures. Compare that to Jason and Steph's shitholes of early lives, Cass's constant abuse for the first half of her life and then being all alone for the second half, pretty much Jean-Paul's entire existence, Hell's sake, he may be cool with it now, but with all the people he killed before he was 10, Damian is gonna be f**ked up when he's older, especially since while he had loving people in his life, they were, like David Cain, supportive of the trauma.

----------


## The tall man

> I mean, none of those are facts to support your opinions, just re-stating what your opinions are, but I suppose facts aren't ALWAYS necessary for opinions. Sometimes people,myself included, just feel a certain way. 
> 
> Even if they're way off base.


What facts support the argument that the symbol and mantle of Batman does not belong to Bruce?
What facts support the argument that Bruce and the Bat are separate and not one in the same? 

If he created all of it how can one argue that it does not belong to him?

----------


## The tall man

> Okay, that bolded bit is just silly.


Let me guess,  Kate Kane is a much better character than Batman, right?

----------


## Caivu

> No beef to whoever feels Batman is a better character than "all combined", those are opinions. I find it silly but it raises no eyebrow to me.


It's kind of a tall thing to say though, when a majority of the Batfamily are rich, complex characters in their own rights.

----------


## Caivu

> Let me guess,  Kate Kane is a much better character than Batman, right?


I would agree with that, yes. As is Cass, Damian, Dick, Jason, Barbara, Steph... you get the idea. But that _doesn't mean Bruce is a bad character._

To put it simply: I think pretty much any two Batfamily characters will be better than any one of them in isolation. That's how rich they all are as characters.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's kind of a tall thing to say though, when a majority of the Batfamily are rich, complex characters in their own rights.


Yeah it is, it just doesn`t surprise me that someone would say it.

----------


## Carabas

> The Bat-Family owe their existence to Bruce, he in no way needs them for anything and is head and shoulders a much better character than all of them put together. He has acomplished more good and endured more pain and sacrifice for the "mission" than all the so-called family.
> 
> Bruce is the symbol, he created the symbol when he put on the cowl, without him the symbol does not exist. He can do whatever he wants with it because it is his and his alone. And if someone else wants to wear the symbol then they need Batman's approval. You cannot take what is not yours, the symbol is not theirs. 
> 
> Bruce and the Bat are one in the same, the Bat was born from within him. You cannot separate the two and no one else but him has a claim to be the Bat. And when he dies the Bat will die with him because no one will ever surpass him as batman.


Nope. Nope. Nope.

Bruce has created something that has grown bigger than him, and that he only has a limited control over.
The Bat has become a symbol that is far bigger than Bruce Wayne, no matter who created it or for what.

----------


## Carabas

> Let me guess,  Kate Kane is a much better character than Batman, right?


Several Bat-family characters are better characters than Bruce Wayne, who can be a bit of one-note.

----------


## millernumber1

> I do find it telling that the must read Batman stories --Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, etc-- contain few to no Batfamily members and instead use characters like Gordon, Alfred, and Catwoman as Bruce's supporting characters.


That's just cherry picking the ones that support your argument. As unclepulky points out, there are tons of classic and beloved Batfamily stories. (Also, seriously, DKR features Robin...)




> At the same time though, some of the BEST Batman storyLINES are filled with Batfamily. No Man's Land, Hush, Knightfall, etc. 
> 
> Plus, I know I'm not alone in thinking DKR, Long Halloween, and to a lesser extent Year One are very overrated.
> 
> Besides, most of the Batfamily have had an abundance of their own amazing storylines. Just aren't as appreciated cause they're not Batman.


I completely agree with everything (except one), especially DKR and everything Loeb's every written being overrated and mostly loved for its art. But Year One isn't overrated - every time I read it, I'm struck by just how masterful everything is.  :Smile: 




> I would agree with that, yes. As is Cass, Damian, Dick, Jason, Barbara, Steph... you get the idea. But that _doesn't mean Bruce is a bad character._
> 
> To put it simply: I think pretty much any two Batfamily characters will be better than any one of them in isolation. That's how rich they all are as characters.


I don't think any of the Batfamily are per se "better characters" than others. I love some of them much more than others, but I think that's because they connect with me more, and that's not a universal thing, and can't and shouldn't be. However, I do think that Batman, for both archetypical and commercial reasons, tends to get flattened out a bit more than those he inspires. I do think that Batman should be seen as the inspiration for the entire Batfamily - either in reaction against or in sympathy with - but he's not the end all and be all, and shouldn't be. His whole point (I believe) is not a solo war on crime, but twofold - 1) to prevent what happened to him from ever happening to anyone else if he can help it, and 2) to form a new family to heal what he's lost. Without 2, you just have a crazy person dressed as a flying rat - I think Denny O'Neil said that, and I think he knew a bit about Batman.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> But Year One isn't overrated - every time I read it, I'm struck by just how masterful everything is.


Don't get me wrong, I like Year One, and think it's the best depiction of Batman's early days. It's just that I don't think it's a work of brilliance like some others do. 






> I don't think any of the Batfamily are per se "better characters" than others. I love some of them much more than others, but I think that's because they connect with me more, and that's not a universal thing, and can't and shouldn't be. However, I do think that Batman, for both archetypical and commercial reasons, tends to get flattened out a bit more than those he inspires. I do think that Batman should be seen as the inspiration for the entire Batfamily - either in reaction against or in sympathy with - but he's not the end all and be all, and shouldn't be. His whole point (I believe) is not a solo war on crime, but twofold - 1) to prevent what happened to him from ever happening to anyone else if he can help it, and 2) to form a new family to heal what he's lost. Without 2, you just have a crazy person dressed as a flying rat - I think Denny O'Neil said that, and I think he knew a bit about Batman.


When I think of what makes a character objectively better than another, ex. Charles Foster Kane is a better character than Barney the Dinosaur, it comes down to three things: Depth, Development, and how well they tie in the core themes of their stories. 

I already mentioned that Bruce lacks proper development as a character, and due to his nature, never will. As even a film can show, Batman Begins (the BEST live action Batman film), Bruce DOES have a depth. But unfortunately, because writers are so focused on making him an asshole who's the best at everything, we rarely ever get to SEE that depth. On the rare occasion we do, Bruce suddenly becomes just as great a character as the rest of the Family. 

And as for themes, they work well for Bruce, but, and much like the development issue this isn't his fault, at this point, it's just the SAME points repeated over and over again, and I've stopped being invested.

----------


## The tall man

> Nope. Nope. Nope.
> 
> Bruce has created something that has grown bigger than him, and that he only has a limited control over.
> The Bat has become a symbol that is far bigger than Bruce Wayne, no matter who created it or for what.


I just see it differently. The Bat was born within Bruce and out of that came the symbol. Yeah maybe he inspired others to fight crime but the idea that his own symbol no longer belongs to him and that others can just take for their own without his consent never sat right with me. Let's take Batwoman for example, she took his symbol and likeness and then proclaimed that she didn't need his blessing or permission. She is running around with a bat symbol on her chest and calling herself Batwoman but Batman shouldn't have problem with this. Look if others take inspiration from him and want to go fight crime that's fine, but don't steal his symbol and then say it no longer belongs to him; it's not a brand. I may not like Mother Panic that much but at least she is her creation, not connected to Batman at all.

----------


## millernumber1

> When I think of what makes a character objectively better than another, ex. Charles Foster Kane is a better character than Barney the Dinosaur, it comes down to three things: Depth, Development, and how well they tie in the core themes of their stories. 
> 
> I already mentioned that Bruce lacks proper development as a character, and due to his nature, never will. As even a film can show, Batman Begins (the BEST live action Batman film), Bruce DOES have a depth. But unfortunately, because writers are so focused on making him an asshole who's the best at everything, we rarely ever get to SEE that depth. On the rare occasion we do, Bruce suddenly becomes just as great a character as the rest of the Family. 
> 
> And as for themes, they work well for Bruce, but, and much like the development issue this isn't his fault, at this point, it's just the SAME points repeated over and over again, and I've stopped being invested.


I think those things are solid measures of a character's weight, but not necessarily whether a character will be loved by Fan A or B.  However, I think the deepest problem with Batman is that his story cannot end. Sure, you can try to put someone else in the mask, but every time, sales have indicated that people want Bruce as Batman. But that's ridiculous, and the stories eventually start to show the strain of trying to justify one man doing everything Batman has done.

Which is fine, but it does make those of us who find Bruce increasingly implausible less likely to have him as our favorite character.




> I just see it differently. The Bat was born within Bruce and out of that came the symbol. Yeah maybe he inspired others to fight crime but the idea that his own symbol no longer belongs to him and that others can just take for their own without his consent never sat right with me. Let's take Batwoman for example, she took his symbol and likeness and then proclaimed that she didn't need his blessing or permission. She is running around with a bat symbol on her chest and calling herself Batwoman but Batman shouldn't have problem with this. Look if others take inspiration from him and want to go fight crime that's fine, but don't steal his symbol and then say it no longer belongs to him; it's not a brand. I may not like Mother Panic that much but at least she is her creation, not connected to Batman at all.


It doesn't sit right with many people. But it's the heart of the Batman mythos for others. If one take on the character and the symbol don't work, there are many that hopefully do.

----------


## Carabas

> I just see it differently. The Bat was born within Bruce and out of that came the symbol. Yeah maybe he inspired others to fight crime but the idea that his own symbol no longer belongs to him and that others can just take for their own without his consent never sat right with me. Let's take Batwoman for example, she took his symbol and likeness and then proclaimed that she didn't need his blessing or permission. She is running around with a bat symbol on her chest and calling herself Batwoman but Batman shouldn't have problem with this. Look if others take inspiration from him and want to go fight crime that's fine, but don't steal his symbol and then say it no longer belongs to him; it's not a brand. I may not like Mother Panic that much but at least she is her creation, not connected to Batman at all.


There is nothing in this post I can agree with, including not liking Mother Panic.

What exactly is Bruce Wayne going to do if he wants to stop other heroes using his symbol? Go to war against other heroes over copyright infringement?

And if there are "heroes" operating in Gotham whose methods he disaproves off, he's going to go after them regardles of whether they call thelmselves Bat-Lad or the Green Gazelle.

The fact that other heroes have taken his symbol for their own without his permission pretty much establishes in canon that The Bat his rown into something that is a lot bigger than Bruce Wayne. 

There is still a Batman in the 853rd Century.

----------


## Caivu

> Let's take Batwoman for example, she took his symbol and likeness and then proclaimed that she didn't need his blessing or permission. She is running around with a bat symbol on her chest and calling herself Batwoman but Batman shouldn't have problem with this. Look if others take inspiration from him and want to go fight crime that's fine, but don't steal his symbol and then say it no longer belongs to him; it's not a brand.


Batwoman didn't even pick out the symbol or suit herself; that was Jacob. But whatever, that's a quibble. The reason Bruce didn't have a problem with it, even before the revelation that they were cousins, was because A) she's really damn good at what she does, and B) she obeys the "rules" (on the whole, anyway) because she respects the symbol.

And plus, like Kate herself said in her first series, the Batsymbol she wears _is_ hers. It's not taking away Bruce's, because she's never at all been about replacing him, aside from times when he literally wasn't around.




> What exactly is Bruce Wayne going to do if he wants to stop other heroes using his symbol? Go to war against other heroes over copyright infringement?


Exactly.

----------


## Agent Z

Ironically enough that's one area where a secret identity bites you in the ass. Because if he were public he could do something about her destroying his brand

----------


## Frontier

> And no Batman does not need Robin that was just an excuse to force the red ham burglar into the family.


I don't know, I think there's some precedent for it beyond Tim being the one to push it when he became Robin. 

He's generally always had someone fulfilling a partner role and bouncing off of him the same way a Robin does, and sometimes highlighted the necessity of having these people in his life, even when they're not a Robin. This extends across multiple media, and most media generally depict him with or gaining a Robin at some point. 

Right now we have Duke who is basically a Robin in all but name in terms of the role he currently serves in the books while Damian is off doing his own thing. If Damian hadn't been brought back to life, I would not have been shocked if Duke had become the official Robin.

Batman will always have a Robin, in some form or another.

----------


## Assam

> If Damian hadn't been brought back to life, I would not have been shocked if Duke had become the official Robin.
> .


GASP. The darkest timeline!

----------


## Fergus

> GASP. The darkest timeline!


Duke is alright

----------


## Fergus

> I don't know, I think there's some precedent for it beyond Tim being the one to push it when he became Robin. 
> 
> He's generally always had someone fulfilling a partner role and bouncing off of him the same way a Robin does, and sometimes highlighted the necessity of having these people in his life, even when they're not a Robin. This extends across multiple media, and most media generally depict him with or gaining a Robin at some point. 
> 
> Right now we have Duke who is basically a Robin in all but name in terms of the role he currently serves in the books while Damian is off doing his own thing. If Damian hadn't been brought back to life, I would not have been shocked if Duke had become the official Robin.
> 
> Batman will always have a Robin, in some form or another.


Exactly. That line was just used to give us T** but Batman doesn't need a Robin he will do just fine with Alfred or Gordon or Duke by his side.

----------


## Assam

> Duke is alright


I admit to not having read much with him, but I'm not a fan so far. He certainly hasn't done anything to make me think he's an equal to Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, and Damian.

----------


## Frontier

> Exactly. That line was just used to give us T** but Batman doesn't need a Robin he will do just fine with Alfred or Gordon or Duke by his side.


But they serve basically the same exact role as a Robin, even if they're not called that or wear the costume they're basically still Robins in all but name. 

So he effectively _does_ need a Robin and someone to fill that role for him in the franchise at some point.

----------


## Agent Z

> Exactly. That line was just used to give us T** but Batman doesn't need a Robin he will do just fine with Alfred or Gordon or Duke by his side.


Odd how his creators didn't seem to think so.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ironically enough that's one area where a secret identity bites you in the ass. Because if he were public he could do something about her destroying his brand


That's what he did with Batman, Inc, though. And the first arc of Batwoman's solo deals with him conflicting with her on that.




> I don't know, I think there's some precedent for it beyond Tim being the one to push it when he became Robin. 
> 
> He's generally always had someone fulfilling a partner role and bouncing off of him the same way a Robin does, and sometimes highlighted the necessity of having these people in his life, even when they're not a Robin. This extends across multiple media, and most media generally depict him with or gaining a Robin at some point. 
> 
> Right now we have Duke who is basically a Robin in all but name in terms of the role he currently serves in the books while Damian is off doing his own thing. If Damian hadn't been brought back to life, I would not have been shocked if Duke had become the official Robin.
> 
> Batman will always have a Robin, in some form or another.


Well said. I still think Denny O'Neil is dead on. Batman without a Robin isn't human, he's a crazy rat-man.




> Duke is alright


Riko, Troy, Shug, Dax, and Dre are way better.  :Smile: 




> Exactly. That line was just used to give us T** but Batman doesn't need a Robin he will do just fine with Alfred or Gordon or Duke by his side.


Ehhhhhhhhhhh. Maybe it's because Tim and Steph were my Robins, but I really feel that Batman isn't the best Batman he can be without a Robin. My biggest beef with Duke right now (other than Snyder being stupid and refusing to give him a name) is Snyder being stupid and having him diss the Robin legacy. Oh, yes, Snyder says on Twitter he's not hating on Robin, but if that's the case, then he needs to stop using All Star Batman to say that Robins are inferior to what he's doing with Duke.




> I admit to not having read much with him, but I'm not a fan so far. He certainly hasn't done anything to make me think he's an equal to Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, and Damian.


I think you might enjoy the We Are Robin title. I liked it okay, even though I liked Duke least of the Robins they featured there. I honestly think it probably would have made a better miniseries, with fewer issues. There wasn't enough story there, and too many gaps that a tighter writing requirement might have helped fill.

----------


## Frontier

> Well said. I still think Denny O'Neil is dead on. Batman without a Robin isn't human, he's a crazy rat-man.


Well, I think that's going a little too-far the other way... :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, I think that's going a little too-far the other way....


But that's why this is the "Controversial" opinions, neh?  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

Whether or not Batman needs a Robin he certainly doesn't need 5 of them.

----------


## Fergus

Robin is just someone to give exposition to batman did just fine without Robin he doesn't need Robin never did. A Duke, an Alfred will do just fine it doesn't need to be Robin. Synder's batman is proof of that.

@millernumber1 well I prefer Duke.

----------


## Fergus

> Whether or not Batman needs a Robin he certainly doesn't need 5 of them.


The batfamily is bloated to ridiculous proportions.

----------


## Assam

> The batfamily is bloated to ridiculous proportions.


While I'm not a fan of a lot of the extended Batfamily (Batman Inc., Creeper (He's cool on his own), etc.), I love most of the immediate members. 

All 5 Robins? Love em

All 6 Batgirls? Love em (Babs only as Oracle) 

Azrael, Clayface, and Batwoman? Love em

Batwing I'm neutral towards, and we can't get rid of Bruce. I honestly think the only real problem within the immediate Family is the Snyder Trio.

----------


## millernumber1

> Whether or not Batman needs a Robin he certainly doesn't need 5 of them.


That's why he doesn't have 5 - he has over two dozen!  :Smile:  (And you should be fair - he only has one at a time.)




> Robin is just someone to give exposition to batman did just fine without Robin he doesn't need Robin never did. A Duke, an Alfred will do just fine it doesn't need to be Robin. Synder's batman is proof of that.
> 
> @millernumber1 well I prefer Duke.


No, Robin is someone for young kids to identify with so they buy more Batman toys and comics. Additionally, Robin serves to get captured so Batman will have a personal stake in the danger! Last, but not least, Robin exists because Batman is a symbol of inspiration, but it's kinda dumb to have someone being inspiring without someone being inspired, thus Robin.

Snyder's Batman is not proof of anything of the kind. Robin was there 70 years before Duke, and will be around just as long after. Snyder hasn't killed Robin or the idea of Robin by any means - on the whole, he's mostly just made people love it more by contrast with the weak sauce he's giving them with Duke.

Why do you prefer Duke to the other We Are Robin kids?




> The batfamily is bloated to ridiculous proportions.


That's not controversial. It's on like every page of this thread.  :Smile:

----------


## Fergus

> While I'm not a fan of a lot of the extended Batfamily (Batman Inc., Creeper (He's cool on his own), etc.), I love most of the immediate members. 
> 
> All 5 Robins? Love em
> 
> All 6 Batgirls? Love em (Babs only as Oracle) 
> 
> Azrael, Clayface, and Batwoman? Love em
> 
> Batwing I'm neutral towards, and we can't get rid of Bruce. I honestly think the only real problem within the immediate Family is the Snyder Trio.


I too love/like all the family members except for 1 but I still feel that there's too many.

----------


## Assam

> I too love/like all the family members except for 1 but I still feel that there's too many.


I think an easy solution to that problem of feeling bloated would just be to give most of them more autonomy, getting some of them out of Gotham, and others just acting independently within the city.   The problem there is autonomy requires a solo book, and much as these characters are great, we can't have the Batfamily take over the entire main DC line of books.

----------


## Fergus

> That's why he doesn't have 5 - he has over two dozen!  (And you should be fair - he only has one at a time.)
> 
> 
> 
> No, Robin is someone for young kids to identify with so they buy more Batman toys and comics. Additionally, Robin serves to get captured so Batman will have a personal stake in the danger! Last, but not least, Robin exists because Batman is a symbol of inspiration, but it's kinda dumb to have someone being inspiring without someone being inspired, thus Robin.
> 
> Snyder's Batman is not proof of anything of the kind. Robin was there 70 years before Duke, and will be around just as long after. Snyder hasn't killed Robin or the idea of Robin by any means - on the whole, he's mostly just made people love it more by contrast with the weak sauce he's giving them with Duke.
> 
> Why do you prefer Duke to the other We Are Robin kids?
> ...


Yes i get that Robin is also there as an insert for younger fans but that doesn't mean by any means that Batman needs Robin

I like Duke's personality and story better.

Duke has nothing to do with Synder's Batman or my point not sure what you're talking about. I like the robins but I also enjoy solo batman stories.

It wasn't supposed to be controversial I was talking to Godlike13

----------


## Fergus

> I think an easy solution to that problem of feeling bloated would just be to give most of them more autonomy, getting some of them out of Gotham, and others just acting independently within the city.   The problem there is autonomy requires a solo book, and much as these characters are great, we can't have the Batfamily take over the entire main DC line of books.


This is another reason why I'm happy that damian is away from the clusterf**k that is Gotham and the batbooks

----------


## Frontier

> Robin is just someone to give exposition to batman did just fine without Robin he doesn't need Robin never did. A Duke, an Alfred will do just fine it doesn't need to be Robin. Synder's batman is proof of that.
> 
> @millernumber1 well I prefer Duke.


Robin gives someone for Batman to bounce off of and contrast against in the field, a partner he can rely on and develop a relationship with, someone he can mentor, someone he can inspire, someone who can challenge him in different ways, and yes, serve as a means for Batman to give exposition  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

Duke is basically the Robin of Snyder's run.

----------


## millernumber1

> I like Duke's personality and story better.
> 
> Duke has nothing to do with Synder's Batman or my point not sure what you're talking about.
> 
> It wasn't supposed to be controversial I was talking to Godlike13


Right, I get that, but WHAT do you like better about them?

You said "Snyder's Batman is proof" that Batman doesn't need a Robin because of Duke.

Ah, I thought you were just going with the thread title.  :Smile:

----------


## Fergus

> Robin gives someone for Batman to bounce off of and contrast against in the field, a partner he can rely on and develop a relationship with, someone he can mentor, someone he can inspire, someone who can challenge him in different ways, and yes, serve as a means for Batman to give exposition . 
> 
> Duke is basically the Robin of Snyder's run.


No he wasnt Duke is Kings Robin and ASB robin. Synder's run didn't have a robin.

----------


## Fergus

> Right, I get that, but WHAT do you like better about them?
> 
> You said "Snyder's Batman is proof" that Batman doesn't need a Robin because of Duke.
> 
> Ah, I thought you were just going with the thread title.


No I meant how Synder's batman was mainly flying solo. I enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed other stories that had robin along for the ride. I feel like Alfred works just fine.

----------


## millernumber1

> No he wasnt Duke is Kings Robin and ASB robin. Synder's run didn't have a robin.


We're talking about ASB right now. You're right that Snyder/Capullo's run does not have a "main" robin (though Duke does function as a Robin during Zero Year and Superheavy).

----------


## Assam

> This is another reason why I'm happy that damian is away from the clusterf**k that is Gotham and the batbooks


Yeah, Damian is doing REALLY well for himself these days, and that's good for everyone. TT, Super Sons, Nightwing guest spots, it's all great stuff. 

Darkseidpwns and I have talked about ways to get the most Batfam in the fewest books, and a new version of it I've thought up is: 

Batman:  Batman. I wouldn't read it, but I know a LOT of people really want solo Batman adventures. Plus, Duke and Claire could be here sometimes if writers actually want to use them. 
'Tec: Batwoman alone leading a PERMANENT team of Hawkfire, Azrael, Batwing, and Clayface, dealing with crime around the world. 
Nightwing: Starring Dick obviously, with Huntress as a supporting character. 
Red Hood and the Outlaws: Exactly what it is now. 
Batgirl: F**k this book, but we're not getting rid of Babsgirl. 
90's Batkid Book: Any of the 3 could be the lead, with the other 2 working perfectly as their main support. Put them in a college setting and it'd be something unique to them. 

Damian is fine where he is now outside the main Batline.

----------


## Caivu

> That's not controversial. It's on like every page of this thread.


Yep, it's not controversial, just wrong.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yep, it's not controversial, just wrong.


So true.  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

> I think an easy solution to that problem of feeling bloated would just be to give most of them more autonomy, getting some of them out of Gotham, and others just acting independently within the city.   The problem there is autonomy requires a solo book, and much as these characters are great, we can't have the Batfamily take over the entire main DC line of books.


We can't?  :Stick Out Tongue:  

I'd be okay with the Batman title, 'Tec, Nightwing, RHATO, maybe another B&R and a Red Robin title once Tim comes back.

Though you could switch 'Red Robin' by a YJ team book and I'd be content.

----------


## Aioros22

> Whether or not Batman needs a Robin he certainly doesn't need 5 of them.


He never had the 5 of them as Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

> Robin is just someone to give exposition to batman did just fine without Robin he doesn't need Robin never did. A Duke, an Alfred will do just fine it doesn't need to be Robin. Synder's batman is proof of that.
> 
> @millernumber1 well I prefer Duke.


He doesn`t need Robin to functionas a character but needs it as part of the narrative. DC is all too aware of it. Look how often and long he`s been published without "Robin".

----------


## Carabas

> GASP. The darkest timeline!





> I admit to not having read much with him, but I'm not a fan so far. He certainly hasn't done anything to make me think he's an equal to Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, and Damian.


Cassandra Cain fans should know better than to hate on the newest Bat-character that they don't actually have read a lot about.

----------


## Frontier

Rino Romano wasn't a bad Batman but was certainly ill-suited for the role. 

A voice modulator is no substitute for a real batman voice. 

Jason O'Mara isn't that bad a Batman VA. 

DCNAU Damian is accurate to the comics, but his character development hasn't been handled as well or been as nuanced.

Paul Dini writes the Joker better then most modern comic book writers do. 

Anarky deserves better media representation then Joker/Riddler-lite characterizations he's saddled with on either _Beware the Batman_ or _Arrow_.  

We should see more of Bruce Wayne. And by Bruce Wayne, I mean Bruce Wayne outside the Batfamily and being Batman. Heck, I'd love to see the rest of the family do or be more active outside their costume, because that interests me just as much as their vigilante work. 

I prefer Batman's main partner be Robin under most circumstances but I also think he should have a good dynamic with Batgirl as well.

Alfred should only call Bruce "Bruce" under  the most extreme and emotional of circumstances.

----------


## Assam

> Cassandra Cain fans should know better than to hate on the newest Bat-character that they don't actually have read a lot about.


I could say that I loved Cass from her first appearence and that I've read several issues with Duke without liking him, but I understand what you're saying. So alright. Until I read We Are Robin, I'll cease talking crap about Duke

----------


## millernumber1

> Jason O'Mara isn't that bad a Batman VA. 
> 
> DCNAU Damian is accurate to the comics, but his character development hasn't been handled as well or been as nuanced.
> 
> Paul Dini writes the Joker better then most modern comic book writers do. 
> 
> We should see more of Bruce Wayne. And by Bruce Wayne, I mean Bruce Wayne outside the Batfamily and being Batman. Heck, I'd love to see the rest of the family do or be more active outside their costume, because that interests me just as much as their vigilante work. 
> 
> I prefer Batman's main partner be Robin under most circumstances but I also think he should have a good dynamic with Batgirl as well.
> ...


Agree with all of these. But that last I would supplement by saying Alfred should never, ever call Bruce "son." We know he's your son, Alfred. If you say it, it breaks.

----------


## Assam

> I could say that I loved Cass from her first appearence and that I've read several issues with Duke without liking him, but I understand what you're saying. So alright. Until I read We Are Robin, I'll cease talking crap about Duke


I have read We Are Robin! (Thank you, local library) 

Honestly, it was pretty good. 7or 8 /10 I'd give it. 

And regarding Duke, I can say!....he's better than Claire. I'm still not a fan of his, but I don't hate him by any means (though I do still hate how Snyder says he's MORE than a Robin), and I definitely think he's a better character than Gotham Girl. 

However, I do concur with Millernumber1. Every one of Duke's fellow Robins is a more interesting character.

----------


## Assam

> Rino Romano wasn't a bad Batman but was certainly ill-suited for the role. 
> 
> A voice modulator is no substitute for a real batman voice. 
> 
> Jason O'Mara isn't that bad a Batman VA. 
> 
> DCNAU Damian is accurate to the comics, but his character development hasn't been handled as well or been as nuanced.
> 
> Paul Dini writes the Joker better then most modern comic book writers do. 
> ...


In order:

Rino was...eh. Danielle Judovits was the highlight of the show though. By far my favorite take on Babsgirl. (Plus we got to see Oracle once, and that was awesome.)

Hate O'Mara's take personally. I'm not sure if it was for legal or money reasons, but I have no idea why they didn't just get Bruce Greenwood. 

I disagree, but I can definitely see why someone would think so. 

Agreed 100%

YES. I've said it before and I've said it again, Lonnie Machin is THE BEST. His ideologies and general characterization will likely never being depicted properly since it's easier to just go "I'M ALL ABOUT ANARCHY!" Hence why I plan on one day making an Anarky fan film. (No I'm not talking out of my ass. I DO have film experience) 

Agreed 100% Unless it's really well drawn or particularly stylized, I don't really care about the action in comics. I want to see some civilian lives.

In any case but Damian's, agreed. 

Yup

----------


## millernumber1

> However, I do concur with Millernumber1. Every one of Duke's fellow Robins is a more interesting character.


YES! Which one is your fave? Mine is probably Riko, but Dax and Dre are really great too.




> Rino was...eh. Danielle Judovits was the highlight of the show though. By far my favorite take on Babsgirl. (Plus we got to see Oracle once, and that was awesome.)
> 
> Hate O'Mara's take personally. I'm not sure if it was for legal or money reasons, but I have no idea why they didn't just get Bruce Greenwood. 
> 
> In any case but Damian's, agreed.


I was a fan of Judovits from other work, so her as Batgirl was really fun. Plus, I liked that she was the first sidekick - a fun twist on normal canon. And the Oracle bit was great, indeed!

I was similarly a fan of O'Mara's work before he voiced Bruce, so hearing him as Batman worked for me.

Why is Damian different?

----------


## Assam

> YES! Which one is your fave? Mine is probably Riko, but Dax and Dre are really great too.
> 
> Why is Damian different?


Hmm. I'd say Dre was my favorite, with Riko as a close second.

Maybe Batman and Robin New52 will win me over, but for now, Dick and Damian are the team I want to see, not Bruce and Damian,

----------


## millernumber1

> Hmm. I'd say Dre was my favorite, with Riko as a close second.
> 
> Maybe Batman and Robin New52 will win me over, but for now, Dick and Damian are the team I want to see, not Bruce and Damian,


I definitely agree. Bruce and Damian are too similar, especially in their flaws, and I need a team that calls each other out on their flaws.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, Damian is doing REALLY well for himself these days, and that's good for everyone. TT, Super Sons, Nightwing guest spots, it's all great stuff. 
> 
> Darkseidpwns and I have talked about ways to get the most Batfam in the fewest books, and a new version of it I've thought up is: 
> 
> Batman:  Batman. I wouldn't read it, but I know a LOT of people really want solo Batman adventures. Plus, Duke and Claire could be here sometimes if writers actually want to use them. 
> 'Tec: Batwoman alone leading a PERMANENT team of Hawkfire, Azrael, Batwing, and Clayface, dealing with crime around the world. 
> Nightwing: Starring Dick obviously, with Huntress as a supporting character. 
> Red Hood and the Outlaws: Exactly what it is now. 
> Batgirl: F**k this book, but we're not getting rid of Babsgirl. 
> ...


I think there are enough Bat-titles, so that everyone can have a spot somewhere, the bigger problem are imo the events where you put a large number of characters in one story. Here the writers seem often to strugle to give everyone his moment to shine, or even push some characters at the expence of the others.

Night of the Monsterman might not have been the best story in the last time, the writer at least manged to highlight almost every character of the quite big cast (8 characters iirc), even if it was only a 6 issue story. A point where for example the Eternals imo mostly failed despite having way more issues and (at least in case B&RE) a smaller main cast.

----------


## dietrich

> Yep, it's not controversial, just wrong.


No it's an opinion. You might not agree with it but it's his.

----------


## Buried Alien

At some point, Dick Grayson should become Batman *permanently.*

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Caivu

> No it's an opinion. You might not agree with it but it's his.


Pssst. Look at the emoticon.

----------


## byrd156

> At some point, Dick Grayson should become Batman *permanently.*
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Dick should become the "public" Batman. He runs around with the Justice League and deals with bigger fights while Bruce stays in Gotham.

----------


## Assam

> Dick should become the "public" Batman. He runs around with the Justice League and deals with bigger fights while Bruce stays in Gotham.


I mean if we're going the two Batman route, I'd say have Tim be the public Batman and Cass the one who stays in Gotham.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I mean if we're going the two Batman route, I'd say have Tim be the public Batman and Cass the one who stays in Gotham.


I don't see Cass as Batman. Dick sure, Tim maybe and Damian once he comes of age.
I like the idea of Dick and Bruce as the two Batmen.

----------


## rev516

Bruce and Damian as two Batmen would be my dream come true.

----------


## Fergus

> Yep, it's not controversial, just wrong.


You have your opinion I have mine.

----------


## Fergus

> Bruce and Damian as two Batmen would be my dream come true.


That would be mine too though I don't mind Dick taking Damian's spot till he comes of age[if hes not too busy in Bludhaven of course]

----------


## Assam

> I don't see Cass as Batman. Dick sure, Tim maybe and Damian once he comes of age.
> I like the idea of Dick and Bruce as the two Batmen.


I've explained several times on a few different threads why Cass is best for the job, and I also think Damian is the only one who's up there with her. Dick and Tim aren't as worthy of being a solo Batman IMO. 

I don't feel like tracking down one of MY  explanations, so I'll just leave this: http://comicbook.com/2014/12/25/why-...batman-mantle/    Not perfect, but they get most of the main points.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I've explained several times on a few different threads why Cass is best for the job, and I also think Damian is the only one who's up there with her. Dick and Tim aren't as worthy of being a solo Batman IMO. 
> 
> I don't feel like tracking down one of MY  explanations, so I'll just leave this: http://comicbook.com/2014/12/25/why-...batman-mantle/    Not perfect, but they get most of the main points.


Cool will give it a read.

----------


## Assam

> Cool will give it a read.


Shway. Enjoy.

----------


## dancj

> Why do you have a problem with the number? "Over-representation" is not a thing. Would it be better if more guys than just Cullen were LGBT? Of course. I'm personally of the opinion that *when they're older,* Damian and Jon Ken would make a really cute couple. So yeah, wish there were more LGBT men, but there's nothing wrong with the amount of LGBT women.


Representation is great, but it does at times feel like it's more about fanboy wet dream fulfilment than representation.

----------


## hotroddii

> Representation is great, but it does at times feel like it's more about fanboy wet dream fulfilment than representation.


Exactly!!!

----------


## Harpsikord

> Exactly!!!


I don't think that this is fair at all. Is it fanboy wet dream fulfillment to have myriads of straight characters? No, not really, so why should it be to have more lgbt characters?

Honestly, lgbt characters popping up or heroes coming out as being on the lgbt spectrum should be normalized more than anything; not disregarded or sensationalized. Just normalized.

----------


## dancj

> I don't think that this is fair at all. Is it fanboy wet dream fulfillment to have myriads of straight characters? No, not really, so why should it be to have more lgbt characters?


It shouldn't.

It's nothing to do with how many there are and more about the execution.  There's none of it (that I've seen) in Renee Montoya, Kate Kane or Maggie Sawyer.

With Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn, and to a lesser extent, Catwoman - yeah it feels like they're going for titillation.




> Honestly, lgbt characters popping up or heroes coming out as being on the lgbt spectrum should be normalized more than anything; not disregarded or sensationalized. Just normalized.


I agree.

----------


## Buried Alien

This version of the Batsuit should make a comeback:



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## sakuyamons

> This version of the Batsuit should make a comeback:
> 
> 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


1+

Best Batman ever.

----------


## Frontier

> This version of the Batsuit should make a comeback:
> 
> 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


If not the whole suit, but the yellow oval. I feel like it's due a resurgence  :Smile: .

----------


## Carabas

> This version of the Batsuit should make a comeback:
> 
> 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


The ears need to be at least 50% taller, and the cape should be about 5 times that size.

----------


## Godlike13

I like the child's size cape lol.

----------


## dancj

Nah - He looks much better these days.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Nah - He looks much better these days.


Too much purple, the N52 suit was perfection for me, now his framed symbol looks stupid.

----------


## dancj

> Too much purple, the N52 suit was perfection for me, now his framed symbol looks stupid.


I read trades, so I was talking about N52.  

I haven't seen the rebirth look yet...

Just googled it and the purple lining on the cape doesn't bother me too much, but I hate the yellow outline around the bat.

----------


## The Kid

These are a couple that I've been sitting with recently..

Dick Grayson should be more of a global superhero as opposed to being stuck in a city as Batman-lite. He can even still have the Nightwing mantle while being a public hero. Grayson sort of hit the vibe there. He can do that as Nightwing and outside of any spy agency. Just himself

Batman would fit better on the Avengers than he does in the Justice League, where he feels very out of the place

The Batfamily shouldn't all be stuck in Gotham. I've already said I think Dick should be a world traveling superhero but Cass fits that mold too

----------


## adrikito

> This version of the Batsuit should make a comeback:
> 
> 
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Nothing against that.. I am fan of Batman Brave and Bold.

Bman_Character.jpg

They are similar.

----------


## Assam

> The Batfamily shouldn't all be stuck in Gotham. I've already said I think Dick should be a world traveling superhero but Cass fits that mold too


Really, the closest we've gotten to a solo, global Bat hero was Azrael back in the 90's. (Agent 37 was a spy, not a superhero, so I don't count Dick). 

That said though, Dick DID prove in Grayson that it's a good fit for him, and I agree about Cass. In the former's case, I'd have it be Dick living in a city with his own life, but ready to gear up as Nightwing whenever he hears about a crisis or a disaster in the world. With Cass, something I think would work would be if she was constantly traveling the world, helping people, fighting unique metas (The only thing that can give Cass a real challenge), and spreading the symbol and ideology of "The Bat" wherever she goes. That last part I think especially works for her, because of how her whole life is based on that philosophy.

----------


## Assam

A new controversial opinion of mine? My updated list of my favorite Batfamily members, counting extended Batfamily members: 

10. Huntress
9. Onyx
8. Clayface
7. Jean-Paul Valley
6. Misfit
5. Damian Wayne
4. Tim Drake
3. Jason Todd
2. Stephanie Brown
1. Cassandra Cain

----------


## thefiresky

> A new controversial opinion of mine? My updated list of my favorite Batfamily members, counting extended Batfamily members: 
> 
> 10. Huntress
> 9. Onyx
> 8. Clayface
> 7. Jean-Paul Valley
> 6. Misfit
> 5. Damian Wayne
> 4. Tim Drake
> ...



 :Frown:  why do you hate Dick Grayson?

----------


## adrikito

> A new controversial opinion of mine? My updated list of my favorite Batfamily members, counting extended Batfamily members: 
> 
> 10. Huntress
> 9. Onyx
> 8. Clayface
> 7. Jean-Paul Valley
> 6. Misfit
> 5. Damian Wayne
> 4. Tim Drake
> ...


You put members(Misfit and Onyx).. that... Even after see certain old bat-comics maybe I never see.. 

both are female characters, I saw them in internet... Less than 40 appearances.. 

*Onyx was interesting?* the other girl is like one young barbara...

----------


## Assam

> why do you hate Dick Grayson?


These days, I don't HATE him. Not like I used to. I can't say I actually HATE anyone in the Batfamily. Am I completely indifferent to Duke and Claire, and wish the former wasn't having such importance placed on him? Yes. But I don't hate them as characters. 

I mean, yes, I DO hate Babsgirl, but because I love Oracle, I'm left in  a weird middle ground in my feelings toward Babs. 

In the case of Dick, there are tons of comics where I like him, but he's also acted in certain ways that really piss me off. Like I said, I don't hate him, but I'd probably put him near the bottom of my Batfamily ranking, alongside Bruce, Duke, Claire, and Sasha. 

Hold on! There's someone I hate! F**K Sasha Bordeaux.

----------


## Buried Alien

The yellow oval around the Bat Symbol should return to Batman's costume, both in the present, and as part of his character history.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Assam

> Misfit and Onyx(like one pokemon).. Curiously, both are women(I saw them in internet) with less than 40 appearances..


I'm pretty sure they both had a little more than 40, actually. 

But yeah, in the time they had I loved them. And number of appearances are meaningless to me. My 2nd favorite DC comics character is Slobo, and he appeared in less than *20*  issues.

----------


## Frontier

> These are a couple that I've been sitting with recently..
> 
> Dick Grayson should be more of a global superhero as opposed to being stuck in a city as Batman-lite. He can even still have the Nightwing mantle while being a public hero. Grayson sort of hit the vibe there. He can do that as Nightwing and outside of any spy agency. Just himself
> 
> *Batman would fit better on the Avengers than he does in the Justice League, where he feels very out of the place*
> 
> The Batfamily shouldn't all be stuck in Gotham. I've already said I think Dick should be a world traveling superhero but Cass fits that mold too


The Avengers already have a Batman though. It's the Black Panther  :Wink: .

----------


## adrikito

> I'm pretty sure they both had a little more than 40, actually. 
> 
> But yeah, in the time they had I loved them. And number of appearances are meaningless to me. My 2nd favorite DC comics character is Slobo, and he appeared in less than *20*  issues.


I see both characters in DC WIKI... Misfit appeared 2 times in N52..
*
Onyx was interesting unclepulky?*

----------


## Assam

> I see both characters in DC WIKI... Misfit appeared 2 times in N52..
> *
> Onyx was interesting?*


Just another reason on the pile of reasons I hate the Nu52  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And yeah, Onyx was pretty cool. Unsurprisingly, like with Jean-Paul, my favorite thing about her was her relationship with Cass. Also like Jean-Paul, it was only shown off in a handful of issues, but those were damn good issues.

----------


## adrikito

> Just another reason on the pile of reasons I hate the Nu52 
> 
> And yeah, Onyx was pretty cool. Unsurprisingly, like with Jean-Paul, my favorite thing about her was her relationship with Cass. Also like Jean-Paul, it was only shown off in a handful of issues, but those were damn good issues.


Interesting... She is a black character, we never needed Duke for that... 

The fans should make like with Steph and Cass.. Make something for make her return.. or... *MAYBE BIRDS OF PREY IS HER CHANCE, ONE DAY..

You are right... more than 40 appearences.. she participated in 70 issues according comicvine.. She appeared in Green Arrow during N52 and futures end.. But she is... different.. a little similar to cass:*

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/onyx/.../issues-cover/

*
CONTROVERSIAL OPINION.. DC SHOULD FORGET THE IDEA OF INCREASE THE NUMBER OF BAT-FAMILY MEMBERS... THEY ARE ENOUGH.*

----------


## Assam

> Interesting... She is a black character, we never needed Duke for that... 
> 
> The fans should make like with Steph and Cass.. Make something for make her return.. and...


Onyx's fanbase is a grain of sand compared to Steph's and Cass's. She didn't get the exposure, she was never the main character in  a book, she wasn't a central part of the family, etc. 

Surprisingly, she DID pop up in Future's End, but that's no guarantee of seeing her in the main DCU. 

Personally I'd love her to make a return, and, obviously, I prefer her to Duke.

----------


## adrikito

> Onyx's fanbase is a grain of sand compared to Steph's and Cass's. She didn't get the exposure, she was never the main character in  a book, she wasn't a central part of the family, etc. 
> 
> Surprisingly, she DID pop up in Future's End, but that's no guarantee of seeing her in the main DCU. 
> 
> Personally I'd love her to make a return, and, obviously, I prefer her to Duke.


Yeah, this character exist since 1985, before Steph and Cass, characters with more opportunities to shine...

... BIRDS OF PREY is her chance..

onyx.jpg

SORRY, comicvine put a bad image, she is a black character in N52..

----------


## sakuyamons

Misfit was a riot, I miss her terribly. Apparently Gail wanted Helena to get Charlie under her wing, and God if I wouldn't have enjoyed reading Misfit driving Helena crazy.

Unpopular Opinion? Hm...for little I've read of his run as Robin, Jason didn't seem so bad, he actually was likeable. Don't get why fans (or a certain fan, according to the rumours) wanted him dead.

----------


## Assam

> Misfit was a riot, I miss her terribly. Apparently Gail wanted Helena to get Charlie under her wing, and God if I wouldn't have enjoyed reading Misfit driving Helena crazy.
> 
> Unpopular Opinion? Hm...for little I've read of his run as Robin, Jason didn't seem so bad, he actually was likeable. Don't get why fans (or a certain fan, according to the rumours) wanted him dead.


GAAAAH! How is it that so many amazing pitches never to be, and yet Rob Leifeld's Hawk and Dove book was allowed to exist?! The world needs more DARK VENGEANCE! 

I liked Jason as Robin too. He had quite a few interesting plots. I didn't like that he died, but I also didn't like that he came back to life. Its only been the current RHatO book that's made me glad he's back.

----------


## sakuyamons

> GAAAAH! How is it that so many amazing pitches never to be, and yet Rob Leifeld's Hawk and Dove book was allowed to exist?! The world needs more DARK VENGEANCE! 
> 
> I liked Jason as Robin too. He had quite a few interesting plots. I didn't like that he died, but I also didn't like that he came back to life. Its only been the current RHatO book that's made me glad he's back.


I liked the Under the  Hood arc, though I prefer the movie  because the explanation was way less dumb than Superboy Prime Punched Reality. Though between his resurrection and that now every Robin dies or fakes their death, it diminished his death as a turning point on Bruce's life...and it actually makes Bruce look like kinda like a terrible mentor figure. The thing is that after his UTH arc we got terrible stories like:

-Jason, wearing his Robin costume UNDER his normal costume and beating poor Tim out. (Thanks Geoff.) 
-Red-haired Jason was pretty much a terrible thing.
-Battle of the Cowl Jason
-A lot more that I'm too lazy to name

Lobdell on the first run made him a classic bad boy antihero which is...meh, but he actually got better on this run!

----------


## Assam

> I liked the Under the  Hood arc, though I prefer the movie  because the explanation was way less dumb than Superboy Prime Punched Reality. Though between his resurrection and that now every Robin dies or fakes their death, it diminished his death as a turning point on Bruce's life...and it actually makes Bruce look like kinda like a terrible mentor figure. The thing is that after his UTH arc we got terrible stories like:
> 
> -Jason, wearing his Robin costume UNDER his normal costume and beating poor Tim out. (Thanks Geoff.) 
> -Red-haired Jason was pretty much a terrible thing.
> -Battle of the Cowl Jason
> -A lot more that I'm too lazy to name
> 
> Lobdell on the first run made him a classic bad boy antihero which is...meh, but he actually got better on this run!


I love the movie Under the Red Hood, but I don't care for the storyline in the comics. It certainly wasn't good enough to warrant bringing him back to life. And everything that followed was just drek. 

Prior to the current run, Jason was my 4th favorite Robin, but this run has done so much good for his character, I actually like him a little more than Tim and Damian now, the three of them may as well being tied for me.  (He's not passing the Eggplant Avenger though)

----------


## Vinsanity

> I liked the Under the  Hood arc, though I prefer the movie  because the explanation was way less dumb than Superboy Prime Punched Reality. Though between his resurrection and that now every Robin dies or fakes their death, it diminished his death as a turning point on Bruce's life...and it actually makes Bruce look like kinda like a terrible mentor figure. The thing is that after his UTH arc we got terrible stories like:
> 
> -Jason, wearing his Robin costume UNDER his normal costume and beating poor Tim out. (Thanks Geoff.) 
> -Red-haired Jason was pretty much a terrible thing.
> -Battle of the Cowl Jason
> -A lot more that I'm too lazy to name
> 
> Lobdell on the first run made him a classic bad boy antihero which is...meh, but he actually got better on this run!


Yeah Lobdell has really written Jason Todd the best. Everyone either did good but missed a lot. He's just nailed it in my mind.

----------


## millernumber1

> Onyx's fanbase is a grain of sand compared to Steph's and Cass's. She didn't get the exposure, she was never the main character in  a book, she wasn't a central part of the family, etc. 
> 
> Surprisingly, she DID pop up in Future's End, but that's no guarantee of seeing her in the main DCU. 
> 
> Personally I'd love her to make a return, and, obviously, I prefer her to Duke.


Which Future's End stuff did Onyx pop up in? Or was it in the actual Future's End weekly series? (cause if it was the latter...ugh. Not going to do it. The one-shots I'll track down and read.)

----------


## Assam

> Which Future's End stuff did Onyx pop up in? Or was it in the actual Future's End weekly series? (cause if it was the latter...ugh. Not going to do it. The one-shots I'll track down and read.)


It was in the Green Arrow Future's End tie-in. She barely did anything mind you, just being a part of the new Outsiders (I think? Its been awhile) 

And yeah, the main book was total s**t.

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

I agree with most of this! I've always thought that if only one person were to take the mantle, it should be Cass.   Although, I would say that she isn't ready yet, a lot of batman is his detective skills and intelligence, that's how he beats or figures out guys like the joker or riddler and how he hangs with the Justice League.  Cass is better than him h2h no doubt but she needs to learn the rest of it too. Or she'd be too limited in situations where she needs to figure stuff out or the opponent is beyond her physically. But in terms of dedication to the cause, no one beats cass.  Batman is about taking personal tragedy and hardship and using it to empower you.  Cass does that in spades.  It's also sad though, because in order to function on that level, the human in some ways has to give up their humanity.  That's the idea of batman, that personal sacrifice and no one has shown that same ideal on a more consistent basis than Cass, tragically.  I might have said Tim also, but only Johns showed Tim with a bit of a dark streak.  Tynions Tim was cool, but way too hopeful, light and had all the answers ever.  What's the point, if you could do all that and not need to sacrifice anything to get it, that's just not Batman.  Correct me if i'm wrong, I'm sure youd remember better than me (given your quote at the bottom of your posts) but at one point didn't bruce want Cass and Tim to team up so they could learn from each other? One teaches the brains and the other teaches the braun?  In my mind though, bruce always wanted Cass to one day take over.

oops, sorry unclepulky, I met to answer one of your posts on the previous page where you posted a link.  Haven't figured out how to respond directly yet.

----------


## Assam

> I agree with most of this! I've always thought that if only one person were to take the mantle, it should be Cass.   Although, I would say that she isn't ready yet, a lot of batman is his detective skills and intelligence, that's how he beats or figures out guys like the joker or riddler and how he hangs with the Justice League.  Cass is better than him h2h no doubt but she needs to learn the rest of it too. Or she'd be too limited in situations where she needs to figure stuff out or the opponent is beyond her physically. But in terms of dedication to the cause, no one beats cass.  Batman is about taking personal tragedy and hardship and using it to empower you.  Cass does that in spades.  It's also sad though, because in order to function on that level, the human in some ways has to give up their humanity.  That's the idea of batman, that personal sacrifice and no one has shown that same ideal on a more consistent basis than Cass, tragically.  I might have said Tim also, but only Johns showed Tim with a bit of a dark streak.  Tynions Tim was cool, but way too hopeful, light and had all the answers ever.  What's the point, if you could do all that and not need to sacrifice anything to get it, that's just not Batman.  Correct me if i'm wrong, I'm sure youd remember better than me (given your quote at the bottom of your posts) but at one point didn't bruce want Cass and Tim to team up so they could learn from each other? One teaches the brains and the other teaches the braun?  In my mind though, bruce always wanted Cass to one day take over.
> 
> oops, sorry unclepulky, I met to answer one of your posts on the previous page where you posted a link.  Haven't figured out how to respond directly yet.


To do a direct response, click on "reply with quote", at the bottom of the post you want to reply to. 

As for what you said, you're pretty spot on. Cass isn't stupid OR a bad detective (Within her solo book, Babs described her as highly intelligent, and on a few occasions, she displayed some sleuthing skills), but she's definitely not as good in those areas as Tim. And conversely, he's no where near her combat skill level. I f**king loved the idea of them serving as "Bludhaven's Dynamic Duo", teaching each other along the way, but like so much other amazing stuff, it was thrown away so EvilCass (HAAAAAATE) could happen. At the time, Bruce's intentions were very clear: Tim and Cass were to be his successors, with Cass and her unmatched dedication being the one to take up the cowl. 

Personally, I never liked a darker Tim. IMHO, it was a bad direction for his character, and why I feel the Tim Drake from 2004-2009 IS NOT Tim Drake. Though admittedly, he's still more Tim Drake than NuTim...

----------


## RedQueen

Maybe ship wise, I find the dynamic between Tim and Stephanie unhealthy if you look at their issues. I believe that they're teenage first love sort of things but would be an absolute car crash as adults just because they're too different.

I want Cass to be the next Robin rather than Batgirl (I just want the Batgirl mantel to retire itself because of the debates surrounding it). I don't mind Damian but I think Cass could bring something new. I know she's older but since Robins are now older in New 52 I think she could pull it off. Plus it would bring in the Robin and Batman dynamic to her and Bruce since their relationship doesn't really have the depth as his other kids.

Misfit deserves to have her place in the Batfam/BoP panatheon.

----------


## Assam

> Maybe ship wise, I find the dynamic between Tim and Stephanie unhealthy if you look at their issues. I believe that they're teenage first love sort of things but would be an absolute car crash as adults just because they're too different.
> 
> I want Cass to be the next Robin rather than Batgirl (I just want the Batgirl mantel to retire itself because of the debates surrounding it). I don't mind Damian but I think Cass could bring something new. I know she's older but since Robins are now older in New 52 I think she could pull it off. Plus it would bring in the Robin and Batman dynamic to her and Bruce since their relationship doesn't really have the depth as his other kids.
> 
> Misfit deserves to have her place in the Batfam/BoP panatheon.


THANK YOU! The Tim/Steph relationship, while not AS unhealthy as Dick/Babs, is romanticized by many. They definitely had their sweet and tender moments, but they weren't enough IMO. Cass/Steph forever!

Cass as Robin would be interesting. I'd certainly take it over "Orphan." Plus, Steph proved that you CAN be both a Batgirl and a Robin. I'd say that Bruce and Cass's relationship, Pre-Flashpoint, had just as much depth as the others, but it definitely isn't now. That why while I DO want Bruce to adopt NuCass, I don't want it to happen until its earned like Pre-Flashpoint (Where she was basically his daughter for years before the official adoption anyway). 

100% agree about Misfit. She's awesome.

----------


## Aahz

> I want Cass to be the next Robin rather than Batgirl (I just want the Batgirl mantel to retire itself because of the debates surrounding it). I don't mind Damian but I think Cass could bring something new. I know she's older but since Robins are now older in New 52 I think she could pull it off. Plus it would bring in the Robin and Batman dynamic to her and Bruce since their relationship doesn't really have the depth as his other kids.


I don't think that Damian is loosing the Robin mantle anytime soon. And it would be anyway wired if a Robin would be replaced by an older character.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think that Damian is loosing the Robin mantle anytime soon. And it would be anyway wired if a Robin would be replaced by an older character.


Its definitely not a likely scenario, and I foresee Damian being Robin for at least another decade. I don't think age really matters though. 3-4 years isn't THAT much, and hey, Steph's older than Tim.

----------


## Jokerz79

Maybe controversial opinion I think Dark Knight Returns is a good story but not the great story it's acclaimed as.  I also can't stand it when Frank Miller says "I gave Batman back his balls" no you made him borderline psychotic Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams brought back Batman to his Dark Knight roots.

----------


## Assam

> Maybe controversial opinion I think Dark Knight Returns is a good story but not the great story it's acclaimed as.  I also can't stand it when Frank Miller says "I gave Batman back his balls" no you made him borderline psychotic Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams brought back Batman to his Dark Knight roots.


QFT

10char

----------


## Aioros22

> I love the movie Under the Red Hood, but I don't care for the storyline in the comics. It certainly wasn't good enough to warrant bringing him back to life. And everything that followed was just drek. 
> 
> Prior to the current run, Jason was my 4th favorite Robin, but this run has done so much good for his character, I actually like him a little more than Tim and Damian now, the three of them may as well being tied for me.  (He's not passing the Eggplant Avenger though)


Nah, the storyline was too huge not to. The one thing that brings it down was warranted by Office as part of a tie-in event. Doesn`t matter to me. And with each offering (the movie, AK, LC) you get the impact spread in. It probably isn`t as controversial but the idea that one writer or two try to pass as Dick`s "death" had any impact is laughable to me. It was a fake out that went nowehere as far as widespread continuity is served. Damian`s death has impact. Its well done. 

Dick? Please.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Maybe ship wise, I find the dynamic between Tim and Stephanie unhealthy if you look at their issues. I believe that they're teenage first love sort of things but would be an absolute car crash as adults just because they're too different.


I agree with this. Tim and Steph just don't suit each other well in how they are written. Tim needs someone like Cassie or just someone like Ariana (his first girlfriend )

----------


## Assam

> I agree with this. Tim and Steph just don't suit each other well in how they are written. Tim needs someone like Cassie or just someone like Ariana (his first girlfriend )


Him and Cassie I never liked. I'm sorry, but you don't date your dead best friend's girlfriend. 

Tim/Ariana is actually my favorite pairing for Tim though.

----------


## Assam

This is something I've been thinking about for awhile: My BOTTOM 10 Batfamily members. A lot more difficult to make than my top favorites, and only counting Batfam and Extended Batfam, no allies, please remember when reading this that the only one I truly hate is #1. (And the first few I just hold pure indifference) 

10. Batman Inc. (As a concept. I actually quite like the individual characters)
9. Selina Kyle
8. Luke Fox
7. Dick Grayson
6. Bruce Wayne
5. Barbara Gordon (Only not lower because of how much I love Oracle. If I could separate Babsgirl and Oracle as entities in my mind, not only would Babs not be on this list, but in my top 5 favorites.) 
4.Michael Lane
3. Duke Thomas
2. Gotham Girl
1. Sasha Bordeaux

----------


## Aahz

> please remember when reading this that the only one I truly hate is #1.


May I ask why? She is not really a character i care about but why the hate?

----------


## Assam

> May I ask why? She is not really a character i care about but why the hate?


Ted Kord. 

She was there at Checkmate. She _knew_ what Max was going to do. But because Max was her boss, she just let him kill Ted.  

She was not under mind control. Max had no metas with him. She could have killed him.

But she didn't.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ted Kord. 
> 
> She was there at Checkmate. She _knew_ what Max was going to do. But because Max was her boss, she just let him kill Ted.  
> 
> She was not under mind control. Max had no metas with him. She could have killed him.
> 
> But she didn't.


That's a bummer. She's one of my faves. But there's a reason I haven't read Infinite Crisis or the Omac Project.  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

> Him and Cassie I never liked. I'm sorry, but you don't date your dead best friend's girlfriend.


I hated every single part of the TimCassie subplot in pre-Flashpoint. 

I like Tim/Steph on Tynion's run way more than what they had on the pre-Flashpoint.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I think people exaggerate the amount of push Duke gets. It's like they are acting as if he is receiving the same amount Barbara got in the New 52. Where Steph isn't even allowed to be in Smallville season 11 because DC wants Babs to be the only batgirl. I admit that he is getting a push and it might not be fair to certain other characters but lets keep things in perspective.

it could be worse

----------


## millernumber1

> it could be worse


You jinxed it!  :Wink:

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I think people exaggerate the amount of push Duke gets. It's like they are acting as if he is receiving the same amount Barbara got in the New 52. Where Steph isn't even allowed to be in Smallville season 11 because DC wants Babs to be the only batgirl. I admit that he is getting a push and it might not be fair to certain other characters but lets keep things in perspective.
> 
> it could be worse



You got folks crying about him being him being in best selling Batman books. 

It's no good if he does nothing in the book.

Out of what 25 Batman books his appearances make up about what 6-7 issues whole? How is that a push? If his push is like Cyborg's there is NOTHING to fear. Except looking up at Moon Girl on sales charts eventually.

There is nothing to complain about. Now lets see after the events before folks go off.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> You jinxed it!


how will I sleep at night ?  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

I've come to a realization, and I'm not happy about it one bit...I don't think I like Damian Wayne. Nor have I ever. 

To give some context, when Damian first appeared, I found his brattiness charming...but I also thought _actually_ giving Batman a son in the main continuity was absolutely stupid and unnecessary. Also, right after he debuted, he nearly killed Tim, so THAT took away any good will he was earning.   And of course, I'm _me_ so I was still *ABSOLUTELY LIVID* about the EvilCass fiasco, which had just happened earlier that year. And between Damian, and soon after Kate, it really seemed to me that Cass had been removed for the sake of these new additions. (And ignoring the rumor that DiDio DID think Cass would distract from Kate, please remember that at the time, I was like 11. Didn't exactly know how these things worked) 

This attitude continued till 2009. EvilCass had been retconned away, and although she no longer had a solo book, Cass was still around, and had gotten adopted. Thus, my bitterness toward Kate and Damian faded...except for the part where I still thought Bruce having a biological son was a dumb concept. 

DickBats and Robin happened, and I was actually more upset over Dick becoming Batman instead of Tim or Cass than I was Damian becoming Robin. And for me, the DickBats Batman and Robin series was the ultimate example for me of "Hate the concept. Love the execution." Here is where I really started loving Damian on the page, primarily because of his relationship with Dick. And over in Batgirl, his relationship with Steph is probably my 2nd favorite between any Robin and Batgirl. I even liked his bash brothers relationship with Tim. Hell, even in Gates of Gotham, I loved his interactions with Cass. 

I also loved his fondness for animals, and now in the present I love his relationship with Jon, as well as BOTH of the books he's a lead in...

But I still don't like him.

I enjoy the Hell out of him!  Put him with Dick, Steph, Jon, Cass, Tim, or an animal, and I'm gonna have a good time. Super Sons is one of my two favorite Rebirth titles! 

But for whatever reason, the result has always been the same. Once I put the book down, I have almost nothing but negative thoughts about him in my mind. 

Maybe it stems back to the original bitterness, maybe its because its now treated as if its a forgone conclusion that _he's_  meant to succeed Bruce, maybe its something else. The only thing I know its NOT is his personality, because that I love. 

Not really sure what the point of saying all this was, but hey, its something I felt I needed to get off my chest.

----------


## Fergus

> I've come to a realization, and I'm not happy about it one bit...I don't think I like Damian Wayne. Nor have I ever. 
> 
> To give some context, when Damian first appeared, I found his brattiness charming...but I also thought _actually_ giving Batman a son in the main continuity was absolutely stupid and unnecessary.  And of course, I'm _me_ so I was still *ABSOLUTELY LIVID* about the EvilCass fiasco, which had just happened earlier that year. And between Damian, and soon after Kate, it really seemed to me that Cass had been removed for the sake of these new additions. (And ignoring the rumor that DiDio DID think Cass would distract from Kate, please remember that at the time, I was like 11. Didn't exactly know how these things worked) 
> 
> This attitude continued till 2009. EvilCass had been retconned away, and although she no longer had a solo book, Cass was still around, and had gotten adopted. Thus, my bitterness toward Kate and Damian faded...except for the part where I still thought Bruce having a biological son was a dumb concept. 
> 
> DickBats and Robin happened, and I was actually more upset over Dick becoming Batman instead of Tim or Cass than I was Damian becoming Robin. And for me, the DickBats Batman and Robin series was the ultimate example for me of "Hate the concept. Love the execution." Here is where I really started loving Damian on the page, primarily because of his relationship with Dick. And over in Batgirl, his relationship with Steph is probably my 2nd favorite between any Robin and Batgirl. I even liked his bash brothers relationship with Tim. Hell, even in Gates of Gotham, I loved his interactions with Cass. 
> 
> I also loved his fondness for animals, and now in the present I love his relationship with Jon, as well as BOTH of the books he's a lead in...
> ...


Well there's a shocker. 

You dislike Dickbats, you believe Tim and Cass should take over from Bruce, You believe Tim is better at H2H than Damian.

It's not a huge surprise but not sure why you are upset about it. These are fictional characters so it really doesn't matter.

----------


## Assam

> You believe Tim is better at H2H than Damian.
> 
> It's not a huge surprise but not sure why you are upset about it. These are fictional characters so it really doesn't matter.


Actually, I freely admit that NuDamian is WAY better than NuTim, and I've come around to thinking that yeah, while Tim should be good, it makes sense for Damian to be better. 

As for "it really doesn't matter." Maybe for some fiction is just something to enjoy, like what you like, dislike what you don't, this stuff is maybe a little _too_ important to me. If something, good or bad, happens with a character I care about, it stays at the forefront of my mind for days, sometimes weeks. And with Damian, I honestly *do* wish I could love him as much as I do whenever I'm reading a comic with him. Its not like its a major problem in my life or anything (My god would THAT be nice), but its still frustrating.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well there's a shocker. 
> 
> You dislike Dickbats, you believe Tim and Cass should take over from Bruce, You believe Tim is better at H2H than Damian.
> 
> It's not a huge surprise but not sure why you are upset about it. These are fictional characters so it really doesn't matter.


It's a good thing you've never gotten upset over a fictional character before, oh wait...

----------


## Fergus

> It's a good thing you've never gotten upset over a fictional character before, oh wait...


Pot. kettle. Duke 

Doesn't mean we should encourage it in others.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Pot. kettle. Duke 
> 
> Doesn't mean we should encourage it in others.


But you've gone on anti-Tim rants before so don't pretend you have a problem with character bashing.

----------


## nightbird

I dunno how "controversial" it is, after all it's all about preference, but one thing I actually liked about Nu52, that they removed Cass and Steph from Batfamily. Never really got into them, always thought they were "too much". If we must have Batgirl, I'm okay with Barbara being the only one.

----------


## Aioros22

> But you've gone on anti-Tim rants before so don't pretend you have a problem with character bashing


Let`s be honest and fair. You`re both equally terrible.

----------


## sakuyamons

Can't we all be friends?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Can't we all be friends?





> I dunno how "controversial" it is, after all it's all about preference, but one thing I actually liked about Nu52, that they removed Cass and Steph from Batfamily. Never really got into them, always thought they were "too much". If we must have Batgirl, I'm okay with Barbara being the only one.


NOPE!  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue: :

----------


## Fergus

> But you've gone on anti-Tim rants before so don't pretend you have a problem with character bashing.


Who said i have a problem with character bashing? Don't care one way or the other except when that character is that useless Red Hambugler in which case I go out of my way to rip his weebo a**e a new one but  Plucky isn't ranting. 

He's upset and I'm saying that it doesn't matter. He shouldn't be upset since it's a fictional character so it doesn't matter. 

However just because I enjoy hating on and insulting that What's his face I would never encourage it in others.

----------


## Assam

> Doesn't mean we should encourage it in others.


I honestly don't see what's wrong with being upset over a fictional character. Its not like I'm going on a mindless hate rant. I simply feel how I feel, and personally, I don't feel anyone should ever feel bad over _feeling_ anything, with obvious exceptions such as feelings of bigotry.

----------


## Fergus

> Can't we all be friends?


Where's the fun in that?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Fergus

[QUOTE=unclepulky;2771477]I honestly don't see what's wrong with being upset over a fictional character. Its not like I'm going on a mindless hate rant. I simply feel how I feel, and personally, I don't feel anyone should ever feel bad over _feeling_ anything, with obvious exceptions such as feelings of bigotry.[/QUOT]

But my point was why should you care.
Why are you upset about your recent realisation? It doesn't matter.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Can't we all be friends?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uuL6cJPz3Nk

----------


## millernumber1

> I dunno how "controversial" it is, after all it's all about preference, but one thing I actually liked about Nu52, that they removed Cass and Steph from Batfamily. Never really got into them, always thought they were "too much". If we must have Batgirl, I'm okay with Barbara being the only one.


It's definitely controversial.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

[QUOTE=Fergus;2771480]


> I honestly don't see what's wrong with being upset over a fictional character. Its not like I'm going on a mindless hate rant. I simply feel how I feel, and personally, I don't feel anyone should ever feel bad over _feeling_ anything, with obvious exceptions such as feelings of bigotry.[/QUOT]
> 
> But my point was why should you care.
> Why are you upset about your recent realisation? It doesn't matter.


Let me put it like this. 

Have you ever seen a movie? A movie that everyone's raving about, but when you go to see it, while there's a lot of stuff you like, the film just doesn't _click_ for you, and you can't figure out why. That's this for me. 

And if you don't think that's a rational way of thinking either, well, how about this? My life is really damn stressful (like most people's) and sometimes its nice to be concerned with less important things than "How bad is my daily anxiety attack gonna be today"

----------


## nightbird

> It's definitely controversial.


I guess because this forum has a lot of Cass/Steph fans xD So, I guess if I say that Steph was the worst Robin or that Cass adds nothing to Batfamily, someone would eat me alive  :Stick Out Tongue:  //I think I should go and hide now lol//
But as I said, it's preference. We all have our favorites, Cass/Steph just not for me.

----------


## Fergus

[QUOTE=unclepulky;2771562]


> Let me put it like this. 
> 
> Have you ever seen a movie? A movie that everyone's raving about, but when you go to see it, while there's a lot of stuff you like, the film just doesn't _click_ for you, and you can't figure out why. That's this for me. 
> 
> And if you don't think that's a rational way of thinking either, well, how about this? My life is really damn stressful (like most people's) and sometimes its nice to be concerned with less important things than "How bad is my daily anxiety attack gonna be today"


Well you do you. Whatever works for you.

----------


## Fergus

> I guess because this forum has a lot of Cass/Steph fans xD So, I guess if I say that Steph was the worst Robin or that Cass adds nothing to Batfamily, someone would eat me alive  //I think I should go and hide now lol//
> But as I said, it's preference. We all have our favorites, Cass/Steph just not for me.


You're not alone. I don't much care for Steph as Robin I don't count her as Robin. Don't know much about Cass expect that she's like them rock em sock em robots. She's a great fighter but I'm not really interested in fighting so.......

----------


## Assam

> I guess because this forum has a lot of Cass/Steph fans xD So, I guess if I say that Steph was the worst Robin or that Cass adds nothing to Batfamily, someone would eat me alive  //I think I should go and hide now lol//
> But as I said, it's preference. We all have our favorites, Cass/Steph just not for me.


Look at my avatar, back to me. Now back at my avatar, back to me. 

I am not my avatar. I'm just a huge fan. *And now I'm going to eat your soul!* 

XDDD

I kid  of course. Much like there's no problem with me disliking Dick and Bruce, there's nothing wrong with you not liking Cass or Steph. Everyone's opinions are valid, despite what trolls think

However, while Steph being the worst Robin is a subjective opinion, she's actually _my_ favorite BTW, the idea that "Cass adds nothing to the Batfamily" is objectively wrong. Like I said, nothing wrong with not liking her. But that idea simply isn't true.

----------


## Assam

> Don't know much about Cass expect that she's like them rock em sock em robots. She's a great fighter but I'm not really interested in fighting so.......


Cass being the best fighter is barely a footnote on my list of reasons why I love her. This summer, I plan on finally writing my own essay about Cass's character, but for now, this may help you understand the appeal: http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/10019...-of-my-classes

----------


## nightbird

> You're not alone. I don't much care for Steph as Robin I don't count her as Robin. Don't know much about Cass expect that she's like them rock em sock em robots. She's a great fighter but I'm not really interested in fighting so.......


For me Cass is pretty boring. And it's not like I dislike certain type of characters (like some people always bash boy-scouts, then other think anti-heroes lame, etc.), I used to click with her type of heroes, but in the past two years I read like maniac almost all Batfamily related comics and there was no story that made me care about her. I guess she is just not for me. 
As for Steph, she was Robin for like what a few issues (?) and while people can argue if she was true Robin or not, with all respect, no one can stop me from ranking her the last in my list. 
I don't dislike or hate them though.




> Look at my avatar, back to me. Now back at my avatar, back to me. 
> 
> I am not my avatar. I'm just a huge fan. *And now I'm going to eat your soulmate !* 
> 
> XDDD
> 
> I kid  of course. Much like there's no problem with me disliking Dick and Bruce, there's nothing wrong with you not liking Cass or Steph. Everyone's opinions are valid, despite what trolls think
> 
> However, while Steph being the worst Robin is a subjective opinion, she's actually _my_ favorite BTW, the idea that "Cass adds nothing to the Batfamily" is objectively wrong. Like I said, nothing wrong with not liking her. But that idea simply isn't true.


Woah, what my soulmate did to you TT__TT Though it will be hard to swallow him anyway xD

You see, we probably search for different things in our favorites, because I care about Bruce and Dick more than about anyone in Batfamily. But me thinking that Cass adds nothing to the family, still just opinion. It's not meant to be objective or subjective. For me take her down from Batfamily and nothing would change; for her fans of course it would be a different story.

----------


## Assam

> For me Cass is pretty boring. And it's not like I dislike certain type of characters (like some people always bash boy-scouts, then other think anti-heroes lame, etc.), I used to click with her type of heroes, but in the past two years I read like maniac almost all Batfamily related comics and there was no story that made me care about her. I guess she is just not for me.


The sad truth about Cass is that outside No Man's Land, nearly all of Cass's well written appearances are confined to her original solo book.  Most writers just don't _get_ her, or understand how to write her unique voice. Its possible that its not that she isn't for you, but that you haven't met the real Cass.  :Smile: 




> You see, we probably search for different things in our favorites, because I care about Bruce and Dick more than about anyone in Batfamily. But me thinking that Cass adds nothing to the family, still just opinion. It's not meant to be objective or subjective. For me take her down from Batfamily and nothing would change; for her fans of course it would be a different story.


My bad, I misunderstood what you meant. Yeah, I'm sure we all have Batfamily members we wouldn't care if they disappeared. 

What I thought you meant was that she didn't contribute anything to the mythos as a whole. With the exception of Snyder's pets, I'd argue that every Batfamily member has themes surrounding them that enrich the mythos.

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

I don't hate Duke. Or Bluebird.  I don't think they have a role yet, but I think that's the point of them right now.  I guess the controversial opinion would be that I don't want any of them to have field roles.  I always appreciated when creators of whatever medium show examples of people being heroes or helpful without having to punch or beat things in some way.  That's why Barbara as Oracle will always be better to me than Barbara as Batgirl (although I like her too).

----------


## Assam

> I don't hate Duke. Or Bluebird.  I don't think they have a role yet, but I think that's the point of them right now.  I guess the controversial opinion would be that I don't want any of them to have field roles.  I always appreciated when creators of whatever medium show examples of people being heroes or helpful without having to punch or beat things in some way.  That's why Barbara as Oracle will always be better to me than Barbara as Batgirl (although I like her too).


I don't hate them either. At worst, I'm indifferent to Duke, and simply frustrated by Snyder's attitude with the character, and with Harper, I actually like her more than a good chunk of the Batfamily. (She's not in my top ten, but she's not in my bottom 10 either)

Duke definitely isn't staying out of the field once Dark Days comes around, and while Harper is currently retired, Snyder hinted in a podcast that she's going to be on a team book that _isn't_ 'Tec next year (I'm hoping the team consists of her, Cass, Steph, and Clayface)

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

> I don't hate them either. At worst, I'm indifferent to Duke, and simply frustrated by Snyder's attitude with the character, and with Harper, I actually like her more than a good chunk of the Batfamily. (She's not in my top ten, but she's not in my bottom 10 either)
> 
> Duke definitely isn't staying out of the field once Dark Days comes around, and while Harper is currently retired, Snyder hinted in a podcast that she's going to be on a team book that _isn't_ 'Tec next year (I'm hoping the team consists of her, Cass, Steph, and Clayface)


Oh I didn't know that.  That would be really interesting.  Maybe it would happen with the return of Tim.  Tynion has said that only he knows when Tim comes back, and that he has Detective mapped out until 975, which means, I'm just assuming here, Tim has to come back soon.

----------


## Atlanta96

I believe that mediocre characters like Duke are actually the worst characters ever. Because at least when a character is truly awful then the majority of the fandom will rally against them and they'll go away. But with a mediocre block of wood like Duke there's an epidemic of "give him a chance" attitudes that keep him around longer than he needs to.

If you're a perfectionist like me you'll find these characters infuriating. If you're a more casual reader you probably don't think much of them at all.

----------


## Jokerz79

I have nothing against Duke no love or hate if he stays fine if he goes also fine.  I think him as any type of Robin is pointless Bruce has enough of those.  I think a more interesting root for Duke instead of Batman grooming another vigilante would had been Bruce grooming a young man for Wayne and being his eyes and ears for the day Lucius retires.  The focus on that aspect of Bruce's life would had been different and interesting to me and seeing Bruce as a mentor but not teaching a kid how to be a vigilante would also be interesting to me.

----------


## RedQueen

Ok I was just thinking, I preferred the smaller Batfam of the New 52: Bruce, Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim and Damian. Not for the characters themselves as such but to me that is the perfect amount of Batfamily. It also had the essential members who had the appropriate history to be in Bruce's inner circle and still keep the well known stories. While I absolutely adore characters like Cass, this is not me excluding her importance, but these are characters who have the iconography because DC had been very dismissive of Cass by the time Damian established himself as a core character. It's not so much characters I prefer, but characters you can tell DC can easily prioritize. 

I like Steph as a character, but Stephanie never felt like a core character in the Batfam. I didn't like the idea of her time as Batgirl because it meant she shafted Cass out of her mantel and Cass wasn't seen for ages. I also highly doubt Barbara would endorse a new Batgirl, especially when her daughter figure was MIA. The story telling was cute but I didn't enjoy what it meant for Cass and her absence. And every time someone's like Steph should be the next Batgirl after Babs, it's like no honey.

----------


## Assam

> Ok I was just thinking, I preferred the smaller Batfam of the New 52: Bruce, Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim and Damian. Not for the characters themselves as such but to me that is the perfect amount of Batfamily. It also had the essential members who had the appropriate history to be in Bruce's inner circle and still keep the well known stories. While I absolutely adore characters like Cass, this is not me excluding her importance, but these are characters who have the iconography because DC had been very dismissive of Cass by the time Damian established himself as a core character. It's not so much characters I prefer, but characters you can tell DC can easily prioritize. 
> 
> I like Steph as a character, but Stephanie never felt like a core character in the Batfam. I didn't like the idea of her time as Batgirl because it meant she shafted Cass out of her mantel and Cass wasn't seen for ages. I also highly doubt Barbara would endorse a new Batgirl, especially when her daughter figure was MIA. The story telling was cute but I didn't enjoy what it meant for Cass and her absence. And every time someone's like Steph should be the next Batgirl after Babs, it's like no honey.


I personally really like a BIG Batfamily, but I do think the core group should be kept under 10 at any given time. I didn't care for the NuBatfamily, or any of their books. I'm not a fan of Bruce and Dick, to this day I boycott Babsgirl books, not out of my love for Cass and Steph, but for *respect* to Oracle, Jason I wasn't a fan of at the time, and have only become on in Rebirth, I had no interest in seeing Damian with Bruce and not Dick...and there was NuTim. I don't need to explain NuTim. 

So yeah, as a life-long Batfamily fan, like in most areas, the Nu52 was a rough time. 

When Steph's Batgirl book first came out, yeah, I was pissed because I was hoping for another Cass ongoing. Still, I was and still am a Steph fan, AND she was Cass's best friend. I'd be doing nobody a favor by rejecting the book outright, and low and behold, it was a really damn good book. 

As far as Babs endorsing her was concerned, she didn't at first, though not for the reason you brought up, and I've always thought the explanation was obvious: She's Oracle. She knows everything going on in the world at any given time, so while the reader didn't know, and Steph didn't know, Babs probably knew that Cass was acting as the Batman of Hong Kong (Which, while an incredibly seemingly racist move since Cass has very little if any connection to her heritage, DID mean that she was in charge of defending a much larger and more prominent territory than Gotham  :Smile:  

Babs is Batgirl now, much as I hate that that's a fact, and even if there's a massive editorial and executive shake-up, the chances of ANYONE else becoming Batgirl again is slim. 

But that's okay. 

I miss Oracle, and I wish Cass could have her old Batgirl suit, and the fact that on paper we'll likely never see the Babs Cass mother-daughter relationship again stings (If they try giving Kate that role, my fury will not be containable)...but at this point, if they give me a well-written and drawn Cass solo book, and I will be able to ignore EVERYTHING else that's wrong.

----------


## Clark_Kent

Controversial opinions, eh? Boy, do I have a few lol 

• Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better. 

• Having said that, Stephanie Brown should have stayed dead. Dead dead dead. Deader than disco. Deader than a doornail. She's a terrible character. 

• Cass is...ok? I guess? I stopped being interested around the Murderer/Fugitive time period. A character that can do everything perfectly all the time is boring. And yes, this also applies to Bruce quite often. 

• Batman's Rebirth costume is ugly. If you're going to put yellow on the chest, bring back the oval. 

• Jason should never have been brought back permanently. I love UtH, but I wish there had been a way for Bruce to experience Jason's post-return feelings about the Joker being alive, but not actually have Jason be alive. If that makes sense. 

• If Jason has to be alive, he should be a villain & not part of the batfamily.

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

> I personally really like a BIG Batfamily, but I do think the core group should be kept under 10 at any given time. I didn't care for the NuBatfamily, or any of their books. I'm not a fan of Bruce and Dick, to this day I boycott Babsgirl books, not out of my love for Cass and Steph, but for *respect* to Oracle, Jason I wasn't a fan of at the time, and have only become on in Rebirth, I had no interest in seeing Damian with Bruce and not Dick...and there was NuTim. I don't need to explain NuTim. 
> 
> So yeah, as a life-long Batfamily fan, like in most areas, the Nu52 was a rough time. 
> 
> When Steph's Batgirl book first came out, yeah, I was pissed because I was hoping for another Cass ongoing. Still, I was and still am a Steph fan, AND she was Cass's best friend. I'd be doing nobody a favor by rejecting the book outright, and low and behold, it was a really damn good book. 
> 
> As far as Babs endorsing her was concerned, she didn't at first, though not for the reason you brought up, and I've always thought the explanation was obvious: She's Oracle. She knows everything going on in the world at any given time, so while the reader didn't know, and Steph didn't know, Babs probably knew that Cass was acting as the Batman of Hong Kong (Which, while an incredibly seemingly racist move since Cass has very little if any connection to her heritage, DID mean that she was in charge of defending a much larger and more prominent territory than Gotham  
> 
> Babs is Batgirl now, much as I hate that that's a fact, and even if there's a massive editorial and executive shake-up, the chances of ANYONE else becoming Batgirl again is slim. 
> ...


I agree that Cass won't be batgirl again, BUT I think she'll be changing her name from Orphan at the end of this story.  Maybe back to Blackbat? the way I see it is she'll realizes she has a family with the team and the name Orphan won't apply anymore.  Also, I have to say, it does KIND of look like Kate and Bruce are set to me a, if not mentor, guiding influence on her, at least that's what is seems to be building towards to me.

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

> Controversial opinions, eh? Boy, do I have a few lol 
> 
> • Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better. 
> 
> • Having said that, Stephanie Brown should have stayed dead. Dead dead dead. Deader than disco. Deader than a doornail. She's a terrible character. 
> 
> • Cass is...ok? I guess? I stopped being interested around the Murderer/Fugitive time period. A character that can do everything perfectly all the time is boring. And yes, this also applies to Bruce quite often. 
> 
> • Batman's Rebirth costume is ugly. If you're going to put yellow on the chest, bring back the oval. 
> ...


I kind of agree with the Jason point.  But not a straight up villain more like a Wolverine/Punisher type hero.  In general, although I'm mainly a DC guy, the one thing Marvel has over DC with its heroes is that they don't always find the perfect solution that saves everyone.  They sometimes have to compromise their ideals, and when they don't sometimes people suffer for it.  Jason could be the "do what needs to be done" person in DC.  Not saying they should kill everyone, or even anyone, but having Jason in that role opens up the conversation that just isn't there now.  For example, the first (i think) spiderman wolverine team up was all about this and I thought it was fantastic.

----------


## Assam

> I agree that Cass won't be batgirl again, BUT I think she'll be changing her name from Orphan at the end of this story.  Maybe back to Blackbat? the way I see it is she'll realizes she has a family with the team and the name Orphan won't apply anymore.  Also, I have to say, it does KIND of look like Kate and Bruce are set to me a, if not mentor, guiding influence on her, at least that's what is seems to be building towards to me.


Yeah, ever since the explanation of the name in #950, I've been expecting the name change at the end of the arc. Honestly, ANYTHING will be a better name for brand purposes than Orphan, and since pretty much any fan of her's just calls her Cass anyway, the branding is what really matters in this case. And I'm HOPING that the reason we haven't seen the covers for #956-#958 is partially because one of them has a new costume for her on it. 

I want adorkable Batdad yesterday. His protectiveness of Cass in her solo was glorious.  Kate, I'm fine with acting as sort of a cool aunt, as Millernumber1 proposed, but Cass's view of Babs as a mother was very clear, and I don't want them to try to re-create that dynamic with Kate.

----------


## Assam

> Controversial opinions, eh? Boy, do I have a few lol 
> 
> • Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better. 
> 
> • Having said that, Stephanie Brown should have stayed dead. Dead dead dead. Deader than disco. Deader than a doornail. She's a terrible character. 
> 
> • Cass is...ok? I guess? I stopped being interested around the Murderer/Fugitive time period. A character that can do everything perfectly all the time is boring. And yes, this also applies to Bruce quite often. 
> 
> • Batman's Rebirth costume is ugly. If you're going to put yellow on the chest, bring back the oval. 
> ...



I've considered Wargames's quality before, doing my best to ignore what it did to Steph and Leslie, and honestly, its mostly pretty mediocre. There's nothing great about it at all, and what it DID do to those characters brings it into garbage territory. 

You're entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I kid, but think about it this way. To this day, Steph fans blame Bruce for what happened to her, myself included, and while losing a few thousand fans isn't much to Batman, as time went on, and more characters were mistreated, there's no telling what could have happened. 

The fact that you think Cass "Can do everything perfectly all the time", makes me think you don't actually know anything about the character.  :Confused: 

Eh. I think the suit is decent. Not the best. 

Surprisingly, I agree here. These days Jason may be my 3rd favorite Robin, but bringing him back and destroying the effect his death had on the franchise wasn't worth it. 

Disagree.

----------


## Carabas

>  Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better.


I don't think that bad stories becoming less bad if you take out the most of the bad stuff is particularily controversial.

----------


## Clark_Kent

> I've considered Wargames's quality before, doing my best to ignore what it did to Steph and Leslie, and honestly, its mostly pretty mediocre. There's nothing great about it at all, and what it DID do to those characters brings it into garbage territory. 
> 
> *That's why I said "good bat-event", and not "great". * 
> 
> You're entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong.  I kid, but think about it this way. To this day, Steph fans blame Bruce for what happened to her, myself included, and while losing a few thousand fans isn't much to Batman, as time went on, and more characters were mistreated, there's no telling what could have happened. 
> 
> The fact that you think Cass "Can do everything perfectly all the time", makes me think you don't actually know anything about the character. 
> 
> *I admit to never reading her solo series, but between the time she appeared during NML and when I lost interest in her, she was portrayed as practically unbeatable hand to hand because she "reads her opponent so well", and in the Murderer arc she was shown moving around Wayne Manor freely, in costume, amongst all of the detectives and police there, because she moved so swiftly and silently that nobody even heard she was there. I can get behind these characters suddenly appearing or disappearing from a room, I mean that's a Batman staple; but, for me, what they portrayed Cass as was too much. 
> ...


A few responses in bold to help clear up my thoughts. 

My favorite period for the batfam was during No Mans Land. Nightwing, Robin, Huntress, Oracle, Azrael, Batgirl (I liked Cass in NML! Really!).

----------


## adrikito

> You're entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong.  I kid, but think about it this way. To this day, Steph fans blame Bruce for what happened to her, myself included, and while losing a few thousand fans isn't much to Batman, as time went on, and more characters were mistreated, there's no telling what could have happened. 
> .


Yes... No matter the DC opinion, Steph was another Robin.. and even with N52, Cass and Steph are a true batgirls.

Resurrect Steph was A GOOD OPTION, I followed her in many comics(that previosly I never read) during N52 and I see the Batgirl Vol3.. only for her.

Cluemaster died in eternal batman and ... I am sure, I will see him again. And his daughter Steph is better character.

----------


## byrd156

If you read War Games with the retcon in mind it isn't nearly as bad as everyone says it is. It's not bad or great but I think it's still enjoyable if you read it with that mind set.

----------


## Assam

> My favorite period for the batfam was during No Mans Land. Nightwing, Robin, Huntress, Oracle, Azrael, Batgirl (I liked Cass in NML! Really!).


That's my favorite Batfamily era as well! And she may not have been part of the core family at that point, pretty much just interacting with Tim and Cass, but I group Steph in with the Family at that point. 

Cass's NML appearances were gold, yeah. (As a whole, NML is my favorite Batman story) 

And regarding one of you bold points, yes, when it comes to H2H and stealth, very few can match Cass. However, as I point out to people more than I'd like to, pretty much all of Cass's growth and development happened within her solo book.(And kinda one issue of Gotham Knights) There, we see she has a _lot_ of flaws, flaws that without which, I wouldn't love her like I do. It was rarely ever a question of "How will Cass win this fight?" Generally, the fights were just there to show her being awesome. The real draw of the book was Cass's growth as a character, and her unique relationships with a bunch of characters.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't think that bad stories becoming less bad if you take out the most of the bad stuff is particularily controversial.


Ahaha, that's brilliantly said.




> Yes... No matter the DC opinion, Steph was another Robin.. and even with N52, Cass and Steph are a true batgirls.
> 
> Resurrect Steph was A GOOD OPTION, I followed her in many comics(that previosly I never read) during N52 and I see the Batgirl Vol3.. only for her.
> 
> Cluemaster died in eternal batman and ... I am sure, I will see him again. And his daughter Steph is better character.


Yup! Steph is part of the Robin legend, and she made Batgirl her own thing.

----------


## Assam

> Yes... No matter the DC opinion, Steph was another Robin.. and even with N52, Cass and Steph are a true batgirls.
> 
> Resurrect Steph was A GOOD OPTION, I followed her in many comics(that previosly I never read) during N52 and I see the Batgirl Vol3.. only for her.
> 
> Cluemaster died in eternal batman and ... I am sure, I will see him again. And his daughter Steph is better character.


QFT

10char

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason could be the "*do what needs to be done*" person in DC.  Not saying they should kill everyone, or even anyone, but having Jason in that role opens up the conversation that just isn't there now.  For example, the first (i think) spiderman wolverine team up was all about this and I thought it was fantastic.


He *is*. That`s virtually the resolution of the first arc and what the conversation between him and Bruce was about.

----------


## The Kid

I'm fine with as big a Batfamily as possible but I think there should be a degree of separation when it comes to Batman. I think the Batfamily most of the time drags Batman as a character down which is why I think Batman himself should only really interact with Dick, Babs, Damian, and maybe Tim at most

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

> He *is*. That`s virtually the resolution of the first arc and what the conversation between him and Bruce was about.


Yeah I know, I think that's a great start.  But technically, he didn't kill Black Mask, although what he did might have been worse.  But I would love to see the other members confront him about stuff like that and be wrong sometimes.  And Jason would be wrong sometimes too.  And all of their decisions would have consequences, because each is selfish in a sense.  One youre deciding to take a life and the other youre saying my ideals are more important than your lives.  It  is a hard topic with no easy answers.  RHATO  have a great start to that, but if you read the Spider-Man VS Wolverine one shot, or the punisher daredevil issue with the rooftop  conversation that inspired the Netflix scene (plays out differently in the comic) or Remenders Xforce run, the heroes are confronted with harder choices and don't come out scott free at all,  no matter what side of the argument they fall on.

----------


## dancj

I'd say War Games is one of the better Bat-crossovers.  Certainly better than Contagion and Cataclysm.

I don't really care about what it did to Steph - but I really hate what War Crimes did to Leslie

----------


## Assam

I'm not really sure if this counts as an opinion; it's more of a quandary, really. 

Some people say that the Batfamily is too big. They say that too many new characters get introduced and it needs to be sized down. 

That's a fine and valid opinion, even if I don't agree with it. 

But these same people I find are generally ones who are glad that Damian and Jason came back to life, despite the former's resurrection going against what the character's creator wanted, and the latter's, at the time especially, ruining a major part of the Batmythos. 

Some people like Duke, Harper, and (Does Gotham Girl have any fans? I honestly don't know.) Others don't. Again, I have my opinions and others have theirs. 

Still, when I hear people cheering on Damian and Jason, and saying that Duke, Harper, Claire, Luke, and sometimes hearing people basically say that everyone created after Tim, save Damian,  should be cut...it leads me to think that the problem these people have isn't that the Batfamily is too big, but that they don't like any limelight  being given to someone who isn't their favorite. 

This may seem obvious, but there are plenty of people who claim to not have a problem with a lot of characters, but think of them as "pointless." 

Obviously, this is a case that varies from person to person, and isn't an absolute overview of the situation from my eyes. 

But I'll close with this summary: People who say you want a smaller Batfamily? If Jason and Damian had stayed dead, you'd get your smaller Batfamily. It may not be with the characters _you_ want, but you'd have it.

----------


## phantom1592

> I'm not really sure if this counts as an opinion; it's more of a quandary, really. 
> 
> Some people say that the Batfamily is too big. They say that too many new characters get introduced and it needs to be sized down. 
> 
> That's a fine and valid opinion, even if I don't agree with it. 
> 
> But these same people I find are generally ones who are glad that Damian and Jason came back to life, despite the former's resurrection going against what the character's creator wanted, and the latter's, at the time especially, ruining a major part of the Batmythos. 
> 
> Some people like Duke, Harper, and (Does Gotham Girl have any fans? I honestly don't know.) Others don't. Again, I have my opinions and others have theirs. 
> ...



Yeah, that always seems a bit hypocritical... Myself, I think the Batfamily is too big AND don't want Jason or Damian around. 1 robin who grew up, 1 robin who died and was off the table... and 1 robin who learned the best lessons from each.  End of story.

In the 90's, the batfamily was fairly sizable too... but it didn't FEEL that sizable.  Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Batgirl, Azrael, Huntress, ummm... Harold?? I think I'm forgetting someone.... Catwoman could probably count...

However, back then they were more 'separated'. Nightwing had moved on to his own adventures with Titans and his solo book. Batgirl and Huntress were off on their own adventures... Harold had disappeared and nobody bothered to look for him. Azrael was nearly forgotten after Knightsend... still around but not imposing himself on the Bat-books.. If not for the occasional Contagion style crossover, they all did their own thing and stayed out of the cave.  Batman Sometimes Robin, Oracle on the computer screen... that's about it AND with the huge family. 

Now it feels like the cast has gotten bigger and the number of solo books have gotten smaller. All the batfamily are showing up in the batman books. There's less spotlight for what people consider 'the main characters' and more devoted to introducing 'new' characters. 

As for the 'pointless', I'm not a fan of redundant characters. I notice it the most in things like GIJoe and Transformers. Every time they introduce some new character in a cartoon or movie there SHOULD be a REASON they are introduced. Those two properties have very detailed file cards and personalities... and if they are going to be doing the EXACT same job description as someone that already has the history... than they're pretty much pointless. We don't need a NEW doctor in Transformers... we have Rachet... or First Aid... or even Perceptor...GIJoe had Doc.... and LifeLine...  Introducing a hotshot pilot or tough marine... those characters slots already exist. it's part of the fun of having decades of resources and characters at yoru fingertips...

----------


## Pohzee

I understand what you mean Unclepulky, but my preference for a tighter Batcast has as much to do with iconography as it does with conciseness. I personally believe that the large supporting cast dilutes the Batman brand. Because I think that recognizable mantles are important, I believe that it is of the upmost importance that the Batman family contain only iconic members. For this reason, in my opinion, a Batwing or a Bluebird isn't worth a Robin or a Batgirl.

My ideal Batman family is the size and consistency of Batman: The New Adventures- Batman, Nightwing, a Robin, and a Batgirl. I really don't care how this is achieved, whether Jason is Robin; Jason is dead and Tim is Robin; or Jason is dead, Tim is retired, and Damian is Robin. My issues with Tim Drake appeared when he was removed from the Robin mantle, and I suspect my feelings for Damian will be the same if he is removed from the role in the forseeable future. I don't like the idea of Batgirl as a legacy mantle, which is why I stick with Babs, but I'd settle for Steph's Batgirl.

To summarize: The Batman mythos is like a chemical solution and the Batfamily members are like various acids; certain acids are stronger than others, and diluting them reduces their potency.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> I'm not really sure if this counts as an opinion; it's more of a quandary, really. 
> 
> Some people say that the Batfamily is too big. They say that too many new characters get introduced and it needs to be sized down. 
> 
> That's a fine and valid opinion, even if I don't agree with it. 
> 
> But these same people I find are generally ones who are glad that Damian and Jason came back to life, despite the former's resurrection going against what the character's creator wanted, and the latter's, at the time especially, ruining a major part of the Batmythos. 
> 
> Some people like Duke, Harper, and (Does Gotham Girl have any fans? I honestly don't know.) Others don't. Again, I have my opinions and others have theirs. 
> ...


This is the dark secret of most comic book fans.  Focus on my favorites, kill off/humiliate/write out everyone else.

----------


## Rise

> I'm not really sure if this counts as an opinion; it's more of a quandary, really. 
> 
> Some people say that the Batfamily is too big. They say that too many new characters get introduced and it needs to be sized down. 
> 
> That's a fine and valid opinion, even if I don't agree with it. 
> 
> But these same people I find are generally ones who are glad that Damian and Jason came back to life, despite the former's resurrection going against what the character's creator wanted, and the latter's, at the time especially, ruining a major part of the Batmythos.


You are sure becoming more _subtle_, unclepulky. It's definitely less direct than the one time when you said that Jason fans are either his fans because of the movie or dudebros loving gunz who thinks that they are coolz. Which makes me wonder, where did you meet these Jason fans..oh sorry...._the people who were glad that Jason is alive_ who thinks that the batfamily should be sized down? Here? Twitter? Instagram? Because I know people from different part of the social media and I don't see anyone caring about this issue. I definitely couldn’t care less about it because I only care about reading good stories. 

Also, the whole issue about Jason's death and how he should have stayed dead which I'm getting really sick of it.

First, most of the batfamily have dead at some point so if the issue of comics death and its permanently concerns you so much, how about you give up one of your favorite characters who died and kill them permanently? You wouldn't agree, right? So, what makes Jason fans less deserving to enjoy having their favorite around than the rest? (This question is to everyone who complain about it)

Second, how did Jason return from death ruin the Batmythos? Did they suddenly changed it to Jason never had died and Batman mourning him all these years was for nothing without me knowing? Because last time I checked Jason is still killed by the joker, Batman still changed after it and both are still haunted by it. So, what was ruined?

----------


## Godlike13

The Batfamily is too big. The Batfamily doesn't really need multiple not Robins and not Batgirls that more or less can do many of the same things. DC doesn't even know what to do with a big family. They have repeatedly show this time and time again. They bastardize each other, few actually even compliment Batman anymore, and too many are around just to be around. 
Answer isn't to just simply jettison members though, sure cutting some of the fat will help, but they also need to find more unique directions and purposes for the members. Which is of course is easier said then done. And they all don't need to necessarily be part of the family. Like Jason for instance. Personally i think it would serve him better to be out side the family, not necessarily opposed, but not on speed dial or part of the group either. Like I would much rather see Jason tell them to F off in a Bat event then see him come in to be wallpaper. That would strike my interest more then having him just be there to do nothing really. Batwoman too i much preferred when she was her own independent thing, and not an agent of Batman.

----------


## sakuyamons

> The Batfamily is too big. The Batfamily doesn't really need multiple not Robins and not Batgirls that more or less can do many of the same things. DC doesn't even know what to do with a big family. They have repeatedly show this time and time again. They bastardize each other, few actually even compliment Batman anymore, and too many are around just to be around. Answer isn't to just simply jettison members though, sure cutting some of the fat will help, but they also need to find more unique directions and purposes for the members. Which is of course is easier said then done. And they all don't need to be part of the family. Like Jason for instance. Personally i think it would serve him better to be out side the family, not necessarily a opposed, but not on speed dial. Batwoman too i much preferred when she was her own independent thing, and not an agent of Batman.


Well, to be honest, it's not like the four/five Robins are Robins at the same time. Though I agree they should do their own thing, that's why I like the Outlaws idea for Jason.

----------


## Atlanta96

While it's true that everyone has their favorite characters who they'll defend to the death, it's not selfish to be opposed to a character who's nobody's favorite. Sometimes a character just doesn't catch on. Is there anything wrong with saying they should be disposed of so writers can focus on the ones who actually matter?

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## millernumber1

> The Batfamily is too big. The Batfamily doesn't really need multiple not Robins and not Batgirls that more or less can do many of the same things. DC doesn't even know what to do with a big family. They have repeatedly show this time and time again. They bastardize each other, few actually even compliment Batman anymore, and too many are around just to be around. 
> Answer isn't to just simply jettison members though, sure cutting some of the fat will help, but they also need to find more unique directions and purposes for the members. Which is of course is easier said then done. And they all don't need to necessarily be part of the family. Like Jason for instance. Personally i think it would serve him better to be out side the family, not necessarily opposed, but not on speed dial or part of the group either. Like I would much rather see Jason tell them to F off in a Bat event then see him come in to be wallpaper. That would strike my interest more then having him just be there to do nothing really. Batwoman too i much preferred when she was her own independent thing, and not an agent of Batman.


I feel like this isn't so much an unpopular opinion, as an opinion that at least 30% of the fandom holds. At the very least, it comes up every third page or so of this thread.  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> I feel like this isn't so much an unpopular opinion, as an opinion that at least 30% of the fandom holds. At the very least, it comes up every third page or so of this thread.


I'd guess closer to 60%.

----------


## Godlike13

I wasn't stating an unpopular opinion but responding to the current discussion about the Batfamliy.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd guess closer to 60%.


That high? I mean...then why do so many Batfamily title sell?

----------


## Coal Tiger

> While it's true that everyone has their favorite characters who they'll defend to the death, it's not selfish to be opposed to a character who's nobody's favorite. Sometimes a character just doesn't catch on. Is there anything wrong with saying they should be disposed of so writers can focus on the ones who actually matter?


Every character is someone's favorite.

----------


## nightbird

Having "someone who is better than Robin", when Robin is still here, that what makes Batfamily crowed. It's about them popping out, when there is no need for them; there is no place for them even outside Batbooks, let alone Batfamily books. Big Batfamily, honestly, never made sense to me.

----------


## Atlanta96

> That high? I mean...then why do so many Batfamily title sell?


Because readers care about the core members of the Family. Nobody bought B&RE for Harper and no one bought Robin War for Duke, is what I'm saying.




> Every character is someone's favorite.


Isn't it a bit troubling that character is only 1 person's favorite?

----------


## Aahz

> That high? I mean...then why do so many Batfamily title sell?


Most fans don't agree on which members should go, and the lest popular ones don't lead their own title but are regulars on the books staring Batman.

----------


## RedQueen

some characters actually need to be in team books to sell. Spoiler, Azrael and Batwing etc don't really have brand recognition like Nightwing or Red Hood. Batwing is on his way though. But either way TEC gives them the opportunity to be featured with a solid writer and DC doesn't need to risk a solo title tanking after a few months. A team books also allows them to be rotated if necessary and TEC has the added boost because of the mystery of Tim's "death" which will tie into the button story line. Could Stephanie maintain a title by herself in the current climate? No, probably not. DC is not afraid to take risks but they know when a characters warrants a title or a miniseries.

----------


## Coal Tiger

> Isn't it a bit troubling that character is only 1 person's favorite?


I'm not sure what character you're talking about, but the cbr message board is too small a sample size to determine how many fans a character has.

----------


## Aahz

> My ideal Batman family is the size and consistency of Batman: The New Adventures- Batman, Nightwing, a Robin, and a Batgirl. I really don't care how this is achieved, whether Jason is Robin; Jason is dead and Tim is Robin; or Jason is dead, Tim is retired, and Damian is Robin.


Personally I would be completly satisfied with Bruce as Batman, Dick as Nightwing, barbara as Batgirl and Jason as a (DCAU Tim like) Robin.
But I think that the Batman franchise can support more charcaters.

I would go for something like this.

Buce and Dick are fine as they are handled at the moment.

Barbara should become again more central in the family and the top female crimfighter in Gotham.

Damain and Tim are imo popular and different enough that they could keep both in a Robin like postion. Tim should imo get a solo at some point, Damian works imo better in a team (he needs somelike Dick or Jon arround or his humor doesn't work).

Jason is fine as Red Hood, eighter in the outlaws and hopefully at some point in a solo, but imo how he is written and handled in the Batfamily events has to change complelty. Him just beeing one of the Robins doesn't really work imo.

I would keep Steph in a supporting role and keep her mostly outside  of the big events (she is imo not the right character for stuff like this).

Cass is for me a problematic character since in Batfamily stories she either fades in the background or having her arround goes at the expense of everybody else (thats why I kind of prefer Strix who has a similar characterisation but is not the worlds greatest martial artist). 

Helena should stay in Birds of Prey but for the most part out side of the Batfamily.

Not sure what do with Selina, unless she can get a solo again, either put her in Birds of Prey, or let her just pop up from time to time in batman stories. 

With Kate's I would wait how succsess full her solo is, and if it doesn't work retire her. And I would stop with this she is the third pillar of the Batfamily stuff.

The others I would send into limbo.

----------


## WonderNight

I would just spit some of the up, i'd send Stephanie to bludhaven and have spoiler become nightwing's sidekick. she needs a role and propose and needs someone to play off of and a popular female lead. plus dick, Stephanie and daiman adventures :Embarrassment: win.

cass can be with babs, luke with kate, tim i don't know. then cass, steph, luke etc will have more room to grown and roles to feel and dick, babs, kate solo would do better.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I think what the mantle of robin represents is more important than the mantle itself.

----------


## Avi

I really wouldn't have anything about Harper returning if she was was not written by Tynion. I think writers like Seeley or Orlando could handle her character much better.




> I would just spit some of the up, i'd send Stephanie to bludhaven and have spoiler become nightwing's sidekick. she needs a role and propose and needs someone to play off of and a popular female lead. plus dick, Stephanie and daiman adventureswin.
> 
> cass can be with babs, luke with kate, tim i don't know. then cass, steph, luke etc will have more room to grown and roles to feel and dick, babs, kate solo would do better.


I would love to see Stephanie in Blüdhaven! Not sure about Cass in the current Batgirl, BoP seems to be a better fit to me though I might be biased because I actually read BoP where as Batgirl has left me disappointed until recently.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Because readers care about the core members of the Family. Nobody bought B&RE for Harper and no one bought Robin War for Duke, is what I'm saying.


It could be argued that people bought We are Robin for Duke and grew to like other characters and that was able to maintain sale numbers similar to Jason's book and sold better than almost every other almost every other DC You book, which include big names like Black Canary and Cyborg.

This was a book that didn't have any of the core family members. I think it show the power of the Batman brand and why DC likes linking new characters to Batman

I don't mind a big Batfamily as long as they are used well, which I think have gotten better post Rebirth but there still need some minor adjustments. This is why I support more spin off book from the Batfamily line but it should not be heavily dependent on Batman. 

One of my suggestion would be a crime fighting buddy adventure series book with Azreal and Batwing that take place outside of Gotham or while their base is in Gotham they travel a lot. I think this would do wonders for both character like the Green Lanterns book have done for Jessica and Baz.

----------


## Aahz

> It could be argued that people bought We are Robin for Duke and grew to like other characters and that was able to maintain sale numbers similar to Jason's book and sold better than almost every other almost every other DC You book, which include big names like Black Canary and Cyborg.


They made a lot of adds for the book and quite from the beginning it was know that it would lead into the Robin War event. And the sales were quite low in the end.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> They made a lot of adds for the book and quite from the beginning it was know that it would lead into the Robin War event. And the sales were quite low in the end.


Duke was also the main focus of that advertisement. That said I do think the book would have done better, if it had more main characters like Steph who I think clearly was meant to be one of the characters in the book.

The writing became  unfocused at the end, and I also think most of the DC You books were hurt at the end because people knew they were being cancelled and a relaunch was about to happen. Outside of Damian's book every other book began to tank including Jason's. Rehood final issue was about 1600 units and We are Robin was at 1400 units Cyborg was at 1200.

----------


## Atlanta96

> It could be argued that people bought We are Robin for Duke and grew to like other characters and that was able to maintain sale numbers similar to Jason's book and sold better than almost every other almost every other DC You book, which include big names like Black Canary and Cyborg.
> 
> This was a book that didn't have any of the core family members. I think it show the power of the Batman brand and why DC likes linking new characters to Batman
> 
> I don't mind a big Batfamily as long as they are used well, which I think have gotten better post Rebirth but there still need some minor adjustments. This is why I support more spin off book from the Batfamily line but it should not be heavily dependent on Batman. 
> 
> One of my suggestion would be a crime fighting buddy adventure series book with Azreal and Batwing that take place outside of Gotham or while their base is in Gotham they travel a lot. I think this would do wonders for both character like the Green Lanterns book have done for Jessica and Baz.


LOL you're wrong. We Are Robin was a bomb even compared to the other DCYou books.

IMG_9973.jpg

By issue #8 was outsold by Black Canary, Starfire, Martian Manhunter, Batman Beyond with Tim Drake, Cyborg, and Gotham Academy. Even Omega Men was a bigger success when you factor in trade sales. The only reason it didn't do worse was because it was a Robin War tie-in.

Heads up, don't try to use sales figures against me. I've done my homework :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> some characters actually need to be in team books to sell. Spoiler, Azrael and Batwing etc don't really have brand recognition like Nightwing or Red Hood. Batwing is on his way though. But either way TEC gives them the opportunity to be featured with a solid writer and DC doesn't need to risk a solo title tanking after a few months. A team books also allows them to be rotated if necessary and TEC has the added boost because of the mystery of Tim's "death" which will tie into the button story line. Could Stephanie maintain a title by herself in the current climate? No, probably not. DC is not afraid to take risks but they know when a characters warrants a title or a miniseries.


I honestly don't think any of the MAJOR Batfam need to be in a team book to sell. 

Cass's book lasted 73 issues and Stephanie's 24, and both were cut off by editorial, not because of sales. (Even Steph's book was still selling over 20,000) Yes, they each had the Batgirl mantle to go off of, but with how long and well they were selling, I think it's safe to say people were coming for the characters, not the Brand. 

Az's solo book lasted 100 issues. Yeah, sales had tanked to around 13,000 by the end, but that, from what I can tell, was because O'Neil was told the book was getting cancelled, so he had to quickly rush with little build-up one of the most frustratingly bad final arcs I've ever read. 

Not too sure what makes you think Batwing is on his way any more than the others. Because he had a minor role in Bad Blood? Don't really see the connection... 

And honestly, same deal with Kate. She had a minor role in Bad Blood. Having "Bat" in the title will help any book, and I don't think "Batwoman" as a title sells any more books than, "Agent of the Bat", "Daughter of the Bat", or "Eggplant of the Bat" would. (That last one would definitely catch people's attention XD.) 

Yes, these other characters succeeded in different climates, but Tynion is basically doing his best right now to restore that climate in 'Tec. No, Steph's arc didn't do a good job of showing off why people love her (Her solo adventure might help with that), but, shitty retconned origin aside, Tynion has done a great job with Cass, probably earning her a lot of new fans, and based on what we've seen so far, he's gonna do a damn fine job with Azrael next. 

I'm not even going to get into the ridiculous idea that DC knows "When a character warrants a title or a miniseries", so I'll stop here.

----------


## Aahz

> I honestly don't think any of the MAJOR Batfam need to be in a team book to sell.


But if everyone had a solo at the same time it would probably be to many books.





> Az's solo book lasted 100 issues. Yeah, sales had tanked to around 13,000 by the end, but that, from what I can tell, was because O'Neil was told the book was getting cancelled, so he had to quickly rush with little build-up one of the most frustratingly bad final arcs I've ever read.


That was ~15 years ago, I kind of doubt that he is still popular enough to carrie a title.




> And honestly, same deal with Kate. She had a minor role in Bad Blood. Having "Bat" in the title will help any book, and I don't think "Batwoman" as a title sells any more books than, "Agent of the Bat", "Daughter of the Bat", or "Eggplant of the Bat" would.


I think she has currently a bigger fanbase than Azrael and Batwing. And her Last series reached 40 issues, thats not to bad in todays market.

----------


## Aahz

> By issue #8 was outsold by Black Canary, Starfire, Martian Manhunter, Batman Beyond with Tim Drake, Cyborg, and Gotham Academy. Even Omega Men was a bigger success when you factor in trade sales. The only reason it didn't do worse was because it was a Robin War tie-in.


But by issue #9 the sales were much higher again. But it was anyway not a big succsess.

----------


## Atlanta96

> But by issue #9 the sales were much higher again. But it was anyway not a big succsess.


And it was back down by issue #10.

IMG_9974.jpg

To be fair Black Canary and Martian Manhunter were worse off by this point. But again, they never had tie ins to a major event to boost sales.

----------


## Assam

> That was ~15 years ago, I kind of doubt that he is still popular enough to carrie a title.


True. But, as I said, he's about to get an arc all about him in one of DC's best selling titles. One way or another, it's gonna rise his profile. 




> I think she has currently a bigger fanbase than Azrael and Batwing. And her Last series reached 40 issues, thats not to bad in todays market.


This I will agree with. In fact, Damian aside, she's probably the most beloved Batfam addition of the 21st Century. Still, unless someone was able to wrangle up undeniable proof, somehow, nothing could get me to believe that Kate has a stronger fanbase than Tim, Steph, Cass, or  Hell, even Huntress.

----------


## NK1988

How do the Red Hood books do in terms of sales?

----------


## Assam

> How do the Red Hood books do in terms of sales?


Pretty good, not amazing. Think the book is around 28,000 in sales last I checked.

----------


## NK1988

> Pretty good, not amazing. Think the book is around 28,000 in sales last I checked.



That's good to hear. It's one of the books I'm gonna be starting to follow. I'd hate for it to be canceled on me.


Also in a technical sense, wouldn't Jason almost count as a "beloved Batfam addition of the 21st Century"?  Far as I know, he had no fans before his resurrection and after that he has plenty of supporters. (lots of haters too but still popular enough) Plus he had very different characterization and everything. Basically an all new character in all but name from what I've heard.


I'm just wondering how he compares in popularity since that's what is being discussed. Is there any way to measure Bat Family popularity?

----------


## Aioros22

> How do the Red Hood books do in terms of sales?
> 
> Also in a technical sense, wouldn't Jason almost count as a "21st Century addition to the Batfam"? *Far as I know, he had no fans before his resurrection* and after that he has plenty of supporters. (lots of haters too but still popular enough) Plus he *had very different characterization and everything. Basically an all new character in every way*.


1) You would be wrong and it`s something easy to check these days online.

2) All new character he isn`t since they never scrapped his old character just as they didn`t when Dick became Nigthwing. But obviously after a graduation of sorts, they can`t be the kids they used to be.

----------


## Assam

> 1) You would be wrong and it`s something easy to check these days online.
> 
> 2) All new character he isn`t since they never scrapped his old character just as they didn`t when Dick became Nigthwing. But obviously after a graduation of sorts, they can`t be the kids they used to be.


THIS

Also, RobinJason fan right here.

----------


## Atlanta96

> How do the Red Hood books do in terms of sales?


The first Outlaws book was a surprisingly big hit for its first couple years, but lost steam towards the end. Red Hood/Arsenal and the current outlaws sold mediocre. Looks like Starfire was carrying that first series the whole time

----------


## dietrich

> That's good to hear. It's one of the books I'm gonna be starting to follow. I'd hate for it to be canceled on me.
> 
> 
> Also in a technical sense, wouldn't Jason almost count as a "beloved Batfam addition of the 21st Century"?  Far as I know, he had no fans before his resurrection and after that he has plenty of supporters. (lots of haters too but still popular enough) Plus he had very different characterization and everything. Basically an all new character in all but name from what I've heard.
> 
> 
> I'm just wondering how he compares in popularity since that's what is being discussed. Is there any way to measure Bat Family popularity?


Jason did have fans as Robin however as the Red Hood his popularity skyrocketed. I would say that currently he is probably the 2nd most popular after Dick or maybe tied 2nd with Damian. Either way dude is very popular.

----------


## NK1988

> 1) You would be wrong and it`s something easy to check these days online.
> 
> 2) All new character he isn`t since they never scrapped his old character just as they didn`t when Dick became Nigthwing. But obviously after a graduation of sorts, they can`t be the kids they used to be.



*shrugs* Fair enough.I guess the Jason haters were exaggerating in how he was supposedly ruined forever after his resurrection. Not surprising.

My bad.

----------


## Assam

> Jason did have fans as Robin however as the Red Hood his popularity skyrocketed. I would say that currently he is probably the 2nd most popular after Dick or maybe tied 2nd with Damian. Either way dude is very popular.


I'd agree with this, though with the whole Family in consideration, I'd either say Babs is a little above Jason and Damian, or is at least on the same level popularity wise.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Jason did have fans as Robin however as the Red Hood his popularity skyrocketed. I would say that currently he is probably the 2nd most popular after Dick or maybe tied 2nd with Damian. Either way dude is very popular.


He's more popular with non-comic fans actually. Among actual readers he relies on other characters to carry his books. I think he had a successful mini-series Pre-Flashpoint but I don't know how well that would've carried over into a Red Hood solo.

----------


## Assam

> He's more popular with non-comic fans actually. Among actual readers he relies on other characters to carry his books. I think he had a successful mini-series Pre-Flashpoint but I don't know how well that would've carried over into a Red Hood solo.


This is also true. 

Speaking as someone who's LOVING it, I'm kind of curious how non-comic reading Jason fans would feel about his more heroic portrayal these days.

----------


## Aioros22

> The first Outlaws book was a surprisingly big hit for its first couple years, but lost steam towards the end. Red Hood/Arsenal and the current outlaws sold mediocre. Looks like Starfire was carrying that first series the whole time

----------


## Aahz

> He's more popular with non-comic fans actually. Among actual readers he relies on other characters to carry his books.


I would claim that he is mostly the one who carries RHatO, especally now with Bizzaro and Artemis on the team, who are both not really big draws.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I would claim that he is mostly the one who carries RHatO, especally now with Bizzaro and Artemis on the team, who are both not really big draws.


And the book isn't doing that well. Sales aren't God-awful or anything but it's far from a hit. Not like it was when Kori was on the team.

----------


## Assam

> And the book isn't doing that well. Sales aren't God-awful or anything but it's far from a hit. Not like it was when Kori was on the team.


Please stop referring to that sexual goldfish as Kory.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Please stop referring to that sexual goldfish as Kory.


LOL, the only good version of Kori we've gotten since the reboot was this.

IMG_9977.jpg

Considering how well received that book was, I'm surprised they didn't make it the basis for Rebirth Starfire.

----------


## Assam

> LOL, the only good version of Kori we've gotten since the reboot was this.
> 
> IMG_9977.jpg
> 
> Considering how well received that book was, I'm surprised they didn't make it the basis for Rebirth Starfire.


I mean, Starfire in Teen Titans has been pretty good so far.

----------


## NK1988

> This is also true. 
> 
> Speaking as someone who's LOVING it, I'm kind of curious how non-comic reading Jason fans would feel about his more heroic portrayal these days.



Hello, I'm here because Under the Red Hood was a fantastic movie and I want to see more.

Personally, while I have much to read, I don't mind the idea of him being more heroic.The allure of Jason for me is the bad boy thing .I can admit it without shame. The Bat Family black sheep is interesting.

But you can't ride that horse forever. He's been back for years now, there has to be some kind of development. Besides, I hear he was mostly just used as a punching bag for the "real" Bat Family when he was a straight-up antagonist. Seems logical, villains rarely win for obvious reasons.

Does he kill people? I don't mean machinegun waving maniac, I just mean is he at least still renouncing Bats' ridiculous rule? (I admire Bruce for having that rule but I don't agree with it)

----------


## Assam

> Does he kill people? I don't mean machinegun waving maniac, I just mean is he at least still renouncing Bats' ridiculous rule? (I admire Bruce for having that rule but I don't agree with it)


The general idea in the current book is that he's _willing_ to kill, but won't do it if not necessary, and NEVER in Gotham.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> LOL you're wrong. We Are Robin was a bomb even compared to the other DCYou books.
> 
> Attachment 48706
> 
> By issue #8 was outsold by Black Canary, Starfire, Martian Manhunter, Batman Beyond with Tim Drake, Cyborg, and Gotham Academy. Even Omega Men was a bigger success when you factor in trade sales. The only reason it didn't do worse was because it was a Robin War tie-in.
> 
> Heads up, don't try to use sales figures against me. I've done my homework


I knew someone would look at the numbers at issue 8 to score point without remember the context. The was a shipment problem with issue 8 of We are Robin ( and other books) and was eventually shipped later and accounted for in the next month which was about 10,500 units
Sale 3.jpg


Which would mean that its total estimate estimate would be around 22 000 units. Higher than Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Batman Beyond with Tim Drake and Cyborg.

If you took your time and actually did your home work better you would have seen that it bounced back in the following months.
sales 1.jpg

As you can see We are Robin units sold in issue 9  was higher than  Cyborg, Martian Manhunter ,Batman Beyond and Black Canary (was at est. 14000 units, not in the attachment).

Also We are Robin did well in digital sale during.

Statistics, data analysis and sales records are my field of expertise, this is why I know when I see sharp dip in number, you should do a bit of research and not just stop when I feel like I found the numbers that prove my point  :Cool:

----------


## Carabas

> 


None of those hooks have bait on them...

----------


## Aahz

> And the book isn't doing that well. Sales aren't God-awful or anything but it's far from a hit. Not like it was when Kori was on the team.


The sales dropped in the region they are now allready around 15 issues before Kory left the team.

The sales are currently not that great, but the book is still outselling Batgirl, Birds of Prey and Deathstroke in the last month (OK not by much). 

But it is sometimes hard to say if it is just the popularity of the charcater. RHatO and RH/A were pre rebith for a long time among the DC books that consitently got the worst reviews. Lobdell himself was also quite controversial due to who Starfire was written in the early issues, and his Teen Titans run. And it is nor like there was much done to to give Jason a push (more the oposite if I look at the Batfamily events) or make the book feel relevant for the Batfranchise.

----------


## Aahz

> This I will agree with. In fact, Damian aside, she's probably the most beloved Batfam addition of the 21st Century. Still, unless someone was able to wrangle up undeniable proof, somehow, nothing could get me to believe that Kate has a stronger fanbase than Tim, Steph, Cass, or  Hell, even Huntress.


I agree with Tim, Steph and Cass, but I don't think that Huntress has such a strong fanbase.

----------


## Assam

> I agree with Tim, Steph and Cass, but I don't think that Huntress has such a strong fanbase.


Definitely not as strong as the Batkids, but while she's always had a decent sized fanbase, I think Simone's BoP run earned her a lot of fans. (If you haven't read the run, she really was at her best there.) Maybe these days Kate _has_ surpassed her thanks to her recent solos and now 'Tec, its definitely closer than the gap between her and the 90's kids, but just based on what I've seen around different forums and IRL, I   don't think Kate's as popular as Helena overall, and certainly not more than Helena  was at her peak.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I knew someone would look at the numbers at issue 8 to score point without remember the context. The was a shipment problem with issue 8 of We are Robin ( and other books) and was eventually shipped later and accounted for in the next month which was about 10,500 units
> Sale 3.jpg
> 
> 
> Which would mean that its total estimate estimate would be around 22 000 units. Higher than Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Batman Beyond with Tim Drake and Cyborg.
> 
> If you took your time and actually did your home work better you would have seen that it bounced back in the following months.
> sales 1.jpg
> 
> ...


You left out the part where it dipped down to 16k the very next month.

IMG_9974.jpg

So that little shipping error didn't make much of a difference in the end. But, I already acknowledged the sales increase in a previous post which you either ignored or didn't notice. So maybe you should go back and actually read my posts before responding  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

> None of those hooks have bait on them...


Hahaha, I'm dying...

----------


## Assam

> Hahaha, I'm dying...


Carabas is the master of quips.

----------


## Rise

> None of those hooks have bait on them...


....
.....



_Hint: notice the difference_

----------


## RedQueen

> LOL, the only good version of Kori we've gotten since the reboot was this.
> 
> Attachment 48714
> 
> Considering how well received that book was, I'm surprised they didn't make it the basis for Rebirth Starfire.


I liked her in that. I enjoy her being her more cheerful self and the concept of it, but I felt like they made her a little too clueless on human customs just for laughs. Still it was good seeing Starfire feeling more familiar and definitely out of the tape costume.

----------


## Aioros22

> LOL, the only good version of Kori we've gotten since the reboot was this.
> 
> Attachment 48714
> 
> Considering how well received that book was, I'm surprised they didn't make it the basis for Rebirth Starfire.


I`m not. The book was a vaccum cleaner.

----------


## Aioros22

> None of those hooks have bait on them...

----------


## Aahz

> Definitely not as strong as the Batkids, but while she's always had a decent sized fanbase, I think Simone's BoP run earned her a lot of fans. (If you haven't read the run, she really was at her best there.) Maybe these days Kate _has_ surpassed her thanks to her recent solos and now 'Tec, its definitely closer than the gap between her and the 90's kids, but just based on what I've seen around different forums and IRL, I   don't think Kate's as popular as Helena overall, and certainly not more than Helena  was at her peak.


But the current Helena is not really the pre crisis one (maybe Rebith can somehow restore her). And even back than she never had a long running solo.

Personally I like the old Helena would certainly prefer to have her over Kate, but there seems to be lot of excitment for Kates series. I'm courios to see how ucsessfull her series will be after all the efford they put into pushing her in TEC.

----------


## RedQueen

I hope Helena and Kate meet up. I enjoyed their Convergence story with Renee

****
And yeah look Barbara's new personality sucks. I get they want to appeal to young teen girls, but it does not feel like Babs. I'm not even in my mid twenties and I get frustrated with this neutered down version of Babs. Batgirl Year One had exactly the right formula for what DC thinks they're producing at the moment. With New 52, having her as Batgirl with PTSD was powerful and I read how former military people were actually praising Gail Simone for the research and how they thanked her for having that represented. It was refreshing to see PTSD explored in the superhero genre through such an iconic heroine. But her current character it's like when you want an animated Teen Titans revival but instead you get Teen Titans Go. 

It's also weird that Kate is now the older of the two and Babs is now only like two years older than Jason.

----------


## Assam

> It's also weird that Kate is now the older of the two and Babs is now only like two years older than Jason.


And even though she's still older, she _looks_ no older than Cass and Steph, so when they're together, Steph has met her, Cass hasn't, it's super surreal for anyone who read their Batgirl runs.

----------


## Aahz

> And even though she's still older, she _looks_ no older than Cass and Steph, so when they're together, Steph has met her, Cass hasn't, it's super surreal for anyone who read their Batgirl runs.


they basically replaced Barbara with Kate as Cass Mentor.

----------


## RedQueen

> And even though she's still older, she _looks_ no older than Cass and Steph, so when they're together, Steph has met her, Cass hasn't, it's super surreal for anyone who read their Batgirl runs.


Yeah, I hope they at least age her up to 25 soon (which I think was her original age when she became Batgirl before retcons). 21 is far too young for Babs to be with her history (but it also has the implication that TKJ falls at the time when she was about 17 given the time line and history they've presented which makes TKJ have a much worse squeak factor to it if that was possible.) 
I also hate how they're drawing her short nowadays. She used to be about 5"11 and now she's down at like tiny levels.

----------


## Assam

> they basically replaced Barbara with Kate as Cass Mentor.


And while I'm obviously not happy about that, I'm _OK_ with it, just so long as they don't have Cass start to think of Kate as a mother, as I've said before,

----------


## RedQueen

> they basically replaced Barbara with Kate as Cass Mentor.


I don't mind Kate having a relationship with Cass, but Barbara's relationship will always be more powerful and it's annoying that they haven't even talked to each other yet. Barbara was so important in Cass's life and it's bull that it's not even worthy of at least a page of panel time for them to actually have met even in B&RE. It's one of the best Batfam dynamics and I'm not saying Babs has to automatically be a mentor figure right away but it's just Babs used to actively involve herself into mentoring and taking care of Cass and even that was a learning experience for Babs. I mean recently Cass got kicked out of Stephanie's apartment so Stephanie can have her boyfriend time and no one followed up on Cass's wandering around especially with her past and developing skills?? A lot of head scratchers. Like even Babs being her english tutor at this point, I'm desperate.

----------


## Assam

> I don't mind Kate having a relationship with Cass, but Barbara's relationship will always be more powerful and it's annoying that they haven't even talked to each other yet. Barbara was so important in Cass's life and it's bull that it's not even worthy of at least a page of panel time for them to actually have met even in B&RE. It's one of the best Batfam dynamics and I'm not saying Babs has to automatically be a mentor figure right away but it's just Babs used to actively involve herself into mentoring and taking care of Cass and even that was a learning experience for Babs. I mean recently Cass got kicked out of Stephanie's apartment so Stephanie can have her boyfriend time and no one followed up on Cass's wandering around especially with her past and developing skills?? A lot of head scratchers. Like even Babs being her english tutor at this point, I'm desperate.


QFT. 

I really don't know how Cass would interact with Burnside Babs, but if she can't have her old relationship with Cass ( and I REALLY do agree that that's one of the best dynamics), at least having her at a tutor would be kind of nice.

----------


## Caivu

> And while I'm obviously not happy about that, I'm _OK_ with it, just so long as they don't have Cass start to think of Kate as a mother, as I've said before,


I've been thinking about this recently, and while I also want them to be more sisterly or aunt-niece, I can see Cass defaulting to that because I'm not 100% sure she knows what an aunt _is._ 

It _would_ make for a hilariously awkward scene where Kate tries to delicately put a kibosh on the whole "mom" angle.

----------


## Assam

> I've been thinking about this recently, and while I also want them to be more sisterly or aunt-niece, I can see Cass defaulting to that because I'm not 100% sure she knows what an aunt _is._ 
> 
> It _would_ make for a hilariously awkward scene where Kate tries to delicately put a kibosh on the whole "mom" angle.


Well, we now know that Carolyn IS out there so she may learn down the line.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And yeah, that'd be a pretty fun scene.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> You left out the part where it dipped down to 16k the very next month.
> 
> Attachment 48717
> 
> So that little shipping error didn't make much of a difference in the end. But, I already acknowledged the sales increase in a previous post which you either ignored or didn't notice. So maybe you should go back and actually read my posts before responding


No I didn't leave that out,  I didn't say that We Are Robin was a hit. I did say it sold better than most DC You books, and I am right.

In that same month;
Red Hood Arsenal           17,707
We Are Robin	            16,412 * on par with Jason's numbers but better than the other DC You titles. 
Martian Manhunter	    13,761
Cyborg		            13,578
Black Canary		    13,566
Midnighter		              9,803

We Are Robin number are higher that most of the non Batman DC You titles.

If you want to say that We Are Robin got a sale boost from Robin Wars the numbers shows the RedHood tie in gave Jason the same benefit.  We Are Robin and Redhood had similar rates of increase sales;

The issue before Robin Wars;
Red Hood Arsenal 19,857
We Are Robin	  19,210

Robin Wars/ tie in
We Are Robin             28,181
Red Hood Arsenal	25,789

And both books fell within and maintain close enough numbers after the event for the rest of their run.


However, the overall point I was  trying to make that a Batman book with a non core Batfamily member was at least able to;
1. Sell at the same rate as Jason's book (RedHood and Arsenal)
2. It also did better that most of the DC You titles with bigger names.

So how was We Are Robin a bomb even compared to the other DC You books ? Which is what you were saying.

Outside of Starfire, We are Robin maintain better sales than almost all the *non Batman family DC You titles* to the end of its run.

The only sales hit from DC You was Damian's book. 

I was not disagreeing with you that fans want to read core Batfamily members, I think they do. However, I was just showing that We Are Robin was able to keep close enough to a Batfamily member that have a strong fan base, while not having a core Bat family member.

Edit: My bigger point was that there should be more Batbooks if DC want to use the brand to launch new character, because I understand why they would do that.

----------


## Aioros22

Did We Are Robin ended because Azzarelo felt the story was told or because of sales, really? It culminates in Robin:War and then Duke just takes the next logical step partnering with Batman.

----------


## Alycat

Speaking of family I hope they expand Huntress  position in the  Bat family. NuHelena is in an odd position with being connected to Dick and Babs and not much else. But as one of the few women of color at D.C. and in the family outside of  Cass, I hope she gets more integration.

----------


## millernumber1

> Did We Are Robin ended because Azzarelo felt the story was told or because of sales, really? It culminates in Robin:War and then Duke just takes the next logical step partnering with Batman.


As far as I can tell, it ended because sales didn't justify relaunching it (though that poses the question of why Gotham Academy is justified, but people tell me "the book market" or something), and Bermejo wasn't generating the kind of fan buzz that indicates there's some way to increase the readership. Plus, Rebirth.




> Speaking of family I hope they expand Huntress  position in the  Bat family. NuHelena is in an odd position with being connected to Dick and Babs and not much else. But as one of the few women of color at D.C. and in the family outside of  Cass, I hope she gets more integration.


I would like that as well - but remember, it took almost a decade before Helena really got any traction in the Batfamily the first time. She was connected to Bruce and Tim, but both of them were wary of her. Not until she teamed up with Nightwing did she start making any serious inroads, and that was really fits and starts until 2003 when she joined the Birds.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I can't take credit for this one. It comes courtesy of Shellhead, over on the Rumbles board, but I totally agree with it.

You know how Marvel likes to retcon any low-showings for Doctor Doom with the "It was a Doombot" excuse? 

Well? Every Batgod moment isn't really Batman at all. It's just Batmite playing at being Batman!

The mystery is finally solved!  :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

> I can't take credit for this one. It comes courtesy of Shellhead, over on the Rumbles board, but I totally agree with it.
> 
> You know how Marvel likes to retcon any low-showings for Doctor Doom with the "It was a Doombot" excuse? 
> 
> Well? Every Batgod moment isn't really Batman at all. It's just Batmite playing at being Batman!
> 
> The mystery is finally solved!


This is crazy enough to actually be canon.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> This is crazy enough to actually be canon.


I know, right? 

It explains EVERYTHING!  :Smile: 

It certainly explains how he can beat up gods in Justice League, and yet has trouble with a clown in his own books.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Did We Are Robin ended because Azzarelo felt the story was told or because of sales, really? It culminates in Robin:War and then Duke just takes the next logical step partnering with Batman.


It was actually written by Lee Bermejo, who said that this was the story he wanted to tell, but I also think sales and Rebirth where bigger factors in any decisions made.

I personally, I think that the writers missed an opportunity when the didn't have Tim Drake be the one behind the scenes building a team of Robin, it would have fit his New 52 personality.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Did We Are Robin ended because Azzarelo felt the story was told or because of sales, really? It culminates in Robin:War and then Duke just takes the next logical step partnering with Batman.


Logical step...

IMG_9988.JPG

----------


## Atlanta96

> It was actually written by Lee Bermejo, who said that this was the story he wanted to tell, but I also think sales and Rebirth where bigger factors in any decisions made.
> 
> I personally, I think that the writers missed an opportunity when the didn't have Tim Drake be the one behind the scenes building a team of Robin, it would have fit his New 52 personality.


Lee Bermejo hates the other Robins. In an interview for WaR he described them as "teenage white kids who all look the same". Funny how all the writers who worked on Duke have a bit of disdain for the rest of the Bat-Boys. Almost like he's a toxic character or something.

----------


## dietrich

> Lee Bermejo hates the other Robins. In an interview for WaR he described them as "teenage white kids who all look the same". Funny how all the writers who worked on Duke have a bit of disdain for the rest of the Bat-Boys. Almost like he's a toxic character or something.


To be fair they are all teenage white kids who look the same.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

----------


## Godlike13

Damian has some color.

----------


## Caivu

> Damian has some color.


Occasionally, when the colorist remembers.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No I didn't leave that out,  I didn't say that We Are Robin was a hit. I did say it sold better than most DC You books, and I am right.
> 
> In that same month;
> Red Hood Arsenal           17,707
> We Are Robin	            16,412 * on par with Jason's numbers but better than the other DC You titles. 
> Martian Manhunter	    13,761
> Cyborg		            13,578
> Black Canary		    13,566
> Midnighter		              9,803
> ...


You left out that WaR was outsold by Batman Beyond with Tim Drake almost every month, that's a Bat-Family book isn't it? So despite a tie-I'm to a major Batman event, WaR was still outsold (most of the time) by a crappy elseworlds title with a downright offensive premise. As well as Red Hood/Arsenal in later months, a crappy continuation of a reviled New 52 series minus the eroticized alien woman that made the series a hit in the first place.

WaR didn't have to bomb that badly, Starfire did better than expected. Batman Beyond did better than it had any right to. WaR was just an extremely unwanted title.

----------


## Atlanta96

> To be fair they are all teenage white kids who look the same.
> 
> Not that there is anything wrong with that.


Well if that's all one has to say about all the Robins and their history then maybe they shouldn't be working on a series with "Robin" in the title. You don't hire someone who thinks the X-Men are a bunch of "Ridiculously dressed mutant freaks" to write an X-Men book.

----------


## dietrich

> Occasionally, when the colorist remembers.


This^^ Funny the last issue of Superman had he quite tan in the 1st two pages but white in the rest.

----------


## dietrich

> Well if that's all one has to say about all the Robins and their history then maybe they shouldn't be working on a series with "Robin" in the title. You don't hire someone who thinks the X-Men are a bunch of "Ridiculously dressed mutant freaks" to write an X-Men book.


Not condoning it esp if he said it with disdain but there's also the possibility that he was trying to highlight how different this new bunch were..... visually.

we're making Robin diverse and tapping into youth culture. Idk

Also what he said isn't the same as the X-men example you gave. Ridiculously dressed and freaks are derogatory. Nothing about White, teenagers and looking similar is derogatory.

----------


## sakuyamons

> To be fair they are all teenage white kids who look the same.
> 
> Not that there is anything wrong with that.


I love the bat kids but...true.

----------


## Frontier

> I can't take credit for this one. It comes courtesy of Shellhead, over on the Rumbles board, but I totally agree with it.
> 
> You know how Marvel likes to retcon any low-showings for Doctor Doom with the "It was a Doombot" excuse? 
> 
> Well? Every Batgod moment isn't really Batman at all. It's just Batmite playing at being Batman!
> 
> The mystery is finally solved!


Or at least all those moments were Batmite fan-ficition...

----------


## Atlanta96

> Not condoning it esp if he said it with disdain but there's also the possibility that he was trying to highlight how different this new bunch were..... visually.
> 
> we're making Robin diverse and tapping into youth culture. Idk
> 
> Also what he said isn't the same as the X-men example you gave. Ridiculously dressed and freaks are derogatory. Nothing about White, teenagers and looking similar is derogatory.


Well he meant it in a derogatory way, that's undeniable. Tapping into youth culture by insulting a group of characters that young people like, calling an established half-Arab character a white boy, smart move Bermejo.

----------


## DragonPiece

I'm not gonna argue, but I keep seeing two of you point out sales, but at the end of the day, none of us know the real sale numbers for these books including digital,trades,etc so arguing about them is pointless. But I do think it's fair to say We Are Robin certainly did not do that well in sales, and I'm sure the writer of the book would agree.  I'm curious now that DC has a more stable reader base if that book would do better with a relaunch and a more consistent artist though? I hope with that Duke solo book we will see the we are robin kids from time to time and what they are up to now a days.

----------


## Atlanta96

It's a good thing they're giving Duke another shot at a solo instead of stupid Cass Cain, Steph Brown, or Tim Drake who nobody likes or cares about and have never had successful solo series in the past. DC always looks out for their fans.

----------


## dietrich

> Well he meant it in a derogatory way, that's undeniable. Tapping into youth culture by insulting a group of characters that young people like, calling an established half-Arab character a white boy, smart move Bermejo.


Dc has never celebrated or spotlighted Damian's Arabian side aside from the name Al ghul nothing indicates that he is half-Arabian. They purposefully depict him as a white kid yet when they introduce his evil twin Heretic they dress him up in traditional Arabian gear. Classy move. They could make him more tan, hightlight his culture more, occasional show him lounging in his traditional gear. Anything to make him visually a bit different but no they go for the matching set.

So yeah they are all white kids who look the same even if one of them is half-Arabian they still all look white and similar. The one error in that sentence was the teenage part. At that point Damian wasn't a teenager.

Bermejo isn't the only one who has made that distinction or had such criticism. Plenty on this site have made reference to Bruce and his clones.

I don't agree with a writer criticising other characters. If he said it with disdain then that was wrong and unprofessional but the statement in itself is descriptive of the Robins. Visually

----------


## Atlanta96

> Dc has never celebrated or spotlighted Damian's Arabian side aside from the name Al ghul nothing indicates that he is half-Arabian. They purposefully depict him as a white kid yet when they introduce his evil twin Heretic they dress him up in traditional Arabian gear. Classy move. They could make him more tan, hightlight his culture more, occasional show him lounging in his traditional gear. Anything to make him visually a bit different but no they go for the matching set.
> 
> So yeah they are all white kids who look the same even if one of them is half-Arabian they still all look white and similar. The one error in that sentence was the teenage part. At that point Damian wasn't a teenager.
> 
> Bermejo isn't the only one who has made that distinction or had such criticism. Plenty on this site have made reference to Bruce and his clones.


Many people with Middle Easterm heritage don't look or act like they have it. I am half Middle Easterm and no one knows unless I tell them. They're not purposefully portraying him as a white kid, it just comes naturally. They choose not to go out of their way to remind us of his heritage but that doesn't mean the heritage isn't there.

----------


## Assam

> I hope with that Duke solo book we will see the we are robin kids from time to time and what they are up to now a days.


I can really only see two outcomes from the release of a Duke solo. 

1) The book tanks. They can call him a "fan-favorite" all they want, but the general attitude toward the character is pure indifference. And I'm also pretty sure that plenty of fans would simply be pissed at him getting a solo book, and not any of the characters from the 'Tec team. The book would be cancelled, and much like what happened to Harper following BR:E's negative reaction, his role would be minimized for some time, pissing off Duke's fanbase. 

2) The book is somehow a success. (The only way I could honestly see this happening would be if Sndyer was writing it and his loyalists all read it). Duke, with his new major role in the Batfamily and possibly the DCU as a whole if Snyder has his way, grows a larger fanbase, but at the same time, earning a whole legion of fans who resent him. Right now, people who actually "Hate" Duke are just a vocal minority. But if this happened, you can bet fans of all the older Batfamily members who don't care about Duke would be up in arms about this, resulting in non-stop arguments until, like all books, "Lark" runs its course.

----------


## Assam

> It's a good thing they're giving Duke another shot at a solo instead of stupid Cass Cain, Steph Brown, or Tim Drake who nobody likes or cares about and have never had successful solo series in the past. DC always looks out for their fans.


Hold on...was this bullcrap actually CONFIRMED?!

----------


## Caivu

> Hold on...was this bullcrap actually CONFIRMED?!


Not that I know of.  I haven't seen anything about a solo for him.

----------


## Assam

> Not that I know of.  I haven't seen anything about a solo for him.


Yeah, a quick search just now and I didn't see anything either.

----------


## Katana500

Was a Harper book not mentioned too some point next year! I doubt she will have a solo so maybe its another bat family team book (maybe batgirls or something)  :Smile:  


I think a Duke book was mentioned by Scott Sydner on Twitter... I think I remember seeing it their atleast! 

I'm not complaining though I like both Harper and Duke  :Smile:  I dont really care about which bat family characters get a book aslong as the story is good!

----------


## Aahz

> Dc has never celebrated or spotlighted Damian's Arabian side aside from the name Al ghul nothing indicates that he is half-Arabian. They purposefully depict him as a white kid yet when they introduce his evil twin Heretic they dress him up in traditional Arabian gear. Classy move. They could make him more tan, hightlight his culture more, occasional show him lounging in his traditional gear. Anything to make him visually a bit different but no they go for the matching set.


And the league of Assassins is not really an Arabian orgainisation, they have members from all over the world and Bases all over the world (I think has in his base more comics in the Himalayas or in Switzerland than in the middle east). And they sem usually more oriented on Ninjas than on Arabians.

And Damian was rased on some tropical island, is cultural background is not really middle eastern.

----------


## Assam

> Was a Harper book not mentioned too some point next year! I doubt she will have a solo so maybe its another bat family team book (maybe batgirls or something)  
> 
> 
> I think a Duke book was mentioned by Scott Sydner on Twitter... I think I remember seeing it their atleast! 
> 
> I'm not complaining though I like both Harper and Duke  I dont really care about which bat family characters get a book aslong as the story is good!


Yeah, Snyder said Harper will be in a book in the next year during a podcast. I didn't listen to it myself, but according to Caivu, it sounds like a team book. (And as I've said before, I want that team to consist of Harper, Cass, Steph, and Clayface) 

I'm glad you can like all characters like that, it'd be nice if we all could, but no, most of us, myself included, have our biases.

----------


## Katana500

> Yeah, Snyder said Harper will be in a book in the next year during a podcast. I didn't listen to it myself, but according to Caivu, it sounds like a team book. (And as I've said before, I want that team to consist of Harper, Cass, Steph, and Clayface)


that would be an awesome team! I hope myself that its a 'batgirls team' with Steph, Cass, Harper and Bette. You could have other characters like Clayface,Bruce, Babs and Tim appear regularly

----------


## Caivu

> Was a Harper book not mentioned too some point next year! I doubt she will have a solo so maybe its another bat family team book (maybe batgirls or something)


This is literally the first I've heard of this.




> I think a Duke book was mentioned by Scott Sydner on Twitter... I think I remember seeing it their atleast!


The only thing I can find about this is a CBR article, and even then it was a maybe:

Screenshot_20170430-112536.jpg

----------


## Assam

> This is literslly the first I've heard of this.


Really? Could have sworn it was you that told me...

----------


## Caivu

> Yeah, Snyder said Harper will be in a book in the next year during a podcast. I didn't listen to it myself, but according to Caivu, it sounds like a team book. (And as I've said before, I want that team to consist of Harper, Cass, Steph, and Clayface)


I don't remember mentioning that at all...

----------


## dietrich

> Many people with Middle Easterm heritage don't look or act like they have it. I am half Middle Easterm and no one knows unless I tell them. They're not purposefully portraying him as a white kid, it just comes naturally. They choose not to go out of their way to remind us of his heritage but that doesn't mean the heritage isn't there.


And yet someone choose to and went out of their way to remind us of that heritage with the Heretic.

I believe that you are correct. They're not purposefully doing it they just default to whatever shade they use on the others. Though in both Teen Titans and Robin Son of Batman, he is darker to reflect his Arabian heritage.

And yes you are right that most people of Arab decent are simply white but that brings us back to the fact the Robins consist of 4 white teenagers who look the same.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Dc has never celebrated or spotlighted Damian's Arabian side aside from the name Al ghul nothing indicates that he is half-Arabian. They purposefully depict him as a white kid yet when they introduce his evil twin Heretic they dress him up in traditional Arabian gear. Classy move. They could make him more tan, hightlight his culture more, occasional show him lounging in his traditional gear. Anything to make him visually a bit different but no they go for the matching set.
> 
> So yeah they are all white kids who look the same even if one of them is half-Arabian they still all look white and similar. The one error in that sentence was the teenage part. At that point Damian wasn't a teenager.
> 
> Bermejo isn't the only one who has made that distinction or had such criticism. Plenty on this site have made reference to Bruce and his clones.
> 
> I don't agree with a writer criticising other characters. If he said it with disdain then that was wrong and unprofessional but the statement in itself is descriptive of the Robins. Visually


He said it "jokingly" more as a descriptive and historical fact than any thing else. That Robin has always looked a particular way and he was simply pointing of that WAR was messing with that notion, that Robin didn't have to look like a Bruce clone. No where did he state that he hate the Robins. 

WAR also contained white kids that had distinct looks so it not like Lee was saying that diversity only means non white, I think as an artist he see the fact that there are four Robins but they look so alike as a bit lazy.

Also on the census, people from an Arab background are classified as White. Both Damian and Dick backgrounds add cultural differences to the characters but based on how America classify race (which is complicated) they are for intent and purpose white. There is nothing wrong with that, but weird that people use them as examples as non white Robins.

----------


## Katana500

> Listening to a podcast that Scott Snyder was on this week and he mentioned Harper's shortcomings and he said afterwards that there is plans for Harper coming in Detective and she will be in a new series next year(sounded like a team book).


I checked it was DragonPiece  :Smile:  in the Harper Thread

----------


## DragonPiece

> I can really only see two outcomes from the release of a Duke solo. 
> 
> 1) The book tanks. They can call him a "fan-favorite" all they want, but the general attitude toward the character is pure indifference. And I'm also pretty sure that plenty of fans would simply be pissed at him getting a solo book, and not any of the characters from the 'Tec team. The book would be cancelled, and much like what happened to Harper following BR:E's negative reaction, his role would be minimized for some time, pissing off Duke's fanbase. 
> 
> 2) The book is somehow a success. (The only way I could honestly see this happening would be if Sndyer was writing it and his loyalists all read it). Duke, with his new major role in the Batfamily and possibly the DCU as a whole if Snyder has his way, grows a larger fanbase, but at the same time, earning a whole legion of fans who resent him. Right now, people who actually "Hate" Duke are just a vocal minority. But if this happened, you can bet fans of all the older Batfamily members who don't care about Duke would be up in arms about this, resulting in non-stop arguments until, like all books, "Lark" runs its course.


I think it just depends on how well the character is recieved after his role in the big summer event. If he still can't get a following after that, I don't see his solo book doing well unless they can get a writer who can do something really interesting with him.




> This is literally the first I've heard of this.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I can find about this is a CBR article, and even then it was a maybe:


Bat Force Radio had Scott Snyder as a guest a few weeks ago and he said there were plans for Harper in Detective and possibly a team books in the work next year. He also said big plans for Duke are gonna be announced soon. So both are going to continue being pushed.

----------


## Rise

> This is literally the first I've heard of this.


Snyder said in a recent interview that there's a new book (not written by him) going to be announced soon that going to involve Harper and Duke I think? Seeing that he was excited about it, I guess it's safe to assume that Duke will be in it.

And about Bermejo, he doesn't hate the robins. He already said once that Jason and Carrie are his favorites.

----------


## dietrich

> I can really only see two outcomes from the release of a Duke solo. 
> 
> 1) The book tanks. They can call him a "fan-favorite" all they want, but the general attitude toward the character is pure indifference. And I'm also pretty sure that plenty of fans would simply be pissed at him getting a solo book, and not any of the characters from the 'Tec team. The book would be cancelled, and much like what happened to Harper following BR:E's negative reaction, his role would be minimized for some time, pissing off Duke's fanbase. 
> 
> 2) The book is somehow a success. (The only way I could honestly see this happening would be if Sndyer was writing it and his loyalists all read it). Duke, with his new major role in the Batfamily and possibly the DCU as a whole if Snyder has his way, grows a larger fanbase, but at the same time, earning a whole legion of fans who resent him. Right now, people who actually "Hate" Duke are just a vocal minority. But if this happened, you can bet fans of all the older Batfamily members who don't care about Duke would be up in arms about this, resulting in non-stop arguments until, like all books, "Lark" runs its course.


Why would Duke's fan base growing lead to resentment.
Dick Grayson fans Didn't resent Tim, Jason or Damian as their fan bases grew or vice versa. So long as fans of other batfamily members are getting good books featuring their favourites I don't see them hating or giving a toss about what Duke is doing.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Was a Harper book not mentioned too some point next year! I doubt she will have a solo so maybe its another bat family team book (maybe batgirls or something)  
> 
> 
> I think a Duke book was mentioned by Scott Sydner on Twitter... I think I remember seeing it their atleast! 
> 
> I'm not complaining though I like both Harper and Duke  I dont really care about which bat family characters get a book aslong as the story is good!


I think they might show up in the Dark Matter book because they where also Capullo inventions. 

However, I know he also said that he wants his writing class that he teaches at DC, to put out a book with lesser known characters so that they have more freedom to develop so it possible that is where they would show up.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Snyder said in a recent interview that there's a new book (not written by him) going to be announced soon that going to involve Harper and Duke I think? Seeing that he was excited about it, I guess it's safe to assume that Duke will be in it.
> 
> And about Bermejo, he doesn't hate the robins. He already said once that Jason and Carrie are his favorites.


I listened to the podcast and Duke wasn't mentioned, so I think the plans are separate. I don't even think he's involved with Harper anymore, he was just mentioning what Tynion is planning.

----------


## Assam

> Why would Duke's fan base growing lead to resentment.
> Dick Grayson fans Didn't resent Tim, Jason or Damian as their fan bases grew or vice versa. So long as fans of other batfamily members are getting good books featuring their favourites I don't see them hating or giving a toss about what Duke is doing.


There's a difference though. With the exceptions of Steph and Damian taking over as Batgirl and Robin (And that was just because their predecessors were really removed in terrible ways), yeah, transitions have been pretty smooth. 

But this isn't a matter of a someone new taking over as Robin or Batgirl. This is a new, still underdeveloped character who, while he definitely has his fans, does not have close to the same backing that every Robin, every Batgirl, and almost every other non-extended Batfam member has, getting a solo book, while others either remain in limbo, are stuck as guest stars, or fight for panel time in 'Tec.

----------


## Assam

> I listened to the podcast and Duke wasn't mentioned, so I think the plans are separate. I don't even think he's involved with Harper anymore, he was just mentioning what Tynion is planning.



Considering I trust Tynion far more than Snyder, I hope this turns out to be the case.

----------


## Rise

> I listened to the podcast and Duke wasn't mentioned, so I think the plans are separate. I don't even think he's involved with Harper anymore, he was just mentioning what Tynion is planning.


Wasn't the bat something podcast? I could swear that Duke was mentioned and he was excited about some news that going to be announced soon. I guess I misremeber it.

----------


## ayanestar

> Why would Duke's fan base growing lead to resentment.
> Dick Grayson fans Didn't resent Tim, Jason or Damian as their fan bases grew or vice versa. So long as fans of other batfamily members are getting good books featuring their favourites I don't see them hating or giving a toss about what Duke is doing.


Back then people were furious when Dick was supposed to grow up and replaced with a new kid however I think it was simply because people loved the Robin they already had and didn't want him to grow up. Today the situation is different. I personally could care less about Tim and Jason but the hate against Duke is obviously because of jealousy. Fans of Tim, Cass, Steph etc. want to see their favorites getting a solo and more stories and are not willing to accept new characters. They will make all kind of excuses how he is a bland character and a copy of Tim or whatever you want to believe. People also hated Damian especially fans of Tim. Fans of Jason and Dick don't always get along either. Fans of the other Batgirls hate on Babs (and Kate). There are also a lot of Batman fans who dislike having the other members of the franchise around because they prefer solo Batman. I personally still dont like Duke or Harper because I think there are more than enough characters in the Batfamily but I like what Snyder is doing with him right now and I did like We Are Robin so I don't mind to see more of him. Harper however can die as far as I care. Anyway all characters used to be new at some point, nowadays it is more difficult to indroduce characters because they have a lot of competition but if DC keep pushing them and include them in some books they will gain a fanbase. Duke already has a decent following for a new character. In 10-20 years there will be new characters again and then fans of Duke and Harper might complain about the same thing as most fans are doing right now.

----------


## btmarine23

I like Snyder a lot, I just don't like him anywhere near Batman or the Batfamily.  I actually think he would be best on Justice League.  I place all my trust in Tynion..that dude IMHO feels the pulse of the batfamily fan.

----------


## dietrich

> There's a difference though. With the exceptions of Steph and Damian taking over as Batgirl and Robin (And that was just because their predecessors were really removed in terrible ways), yeah, transitions have been pretty smooth. 
> 
> But this isn't a matter of a someone new taking over as Robin or Batgirl. This is a new, still underdeveloped character who, while he definitely has his fans, does not have close to the same backing that every Robin, every Batgirl, and almost every other non-extended Batfam member has, getting a solo book, while others either remain in limbo, are stuck as guest stars, or fight for panel time in 'Tec.


We don't know plans for character in Tec could be some are gonna get solo or team up books. Surely if Cass, Steph and Tim got a well written team book you wouldn't resent Duke having a successful solo since you are getting what you want. You have been very vocal about how much you would love such a book.

Violet has her own book and she is new do you resent her? New character's are introduced and given books all the time.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Hold on...was this bullcrap actually CONFIRMED?!


Scott Snyder constantly teases a Duke solo in interviews and has confirmed negotiations for one, so I assume it's going to happen. Scott always gets his way.

I tried finding the exact interview where he talks about Duke's solo book, but they were too painful for me to read. Hopefully someone else can find it.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I like Snyder a lot, I just don't like him anywhere near Batman or the Batfamily.  I actually think he would be best on Justice League.  I place all my trust in Tynion..that dude IMHO feels the pulse of the batfamily fan.


Snyder and Capullo doing a Wonder Woman title could be greatness.

Wes Anderson should do a campy Batmovie. Look at his insane setpieces and costumes. Batman'66 tonally.

After Gotham Academy (boarding school) I'd like to see a different institution: a hotel. Think of all the stuff that could happen there.

----------


## dietrich

> Considering I trust Tynion far more than Snyder, I hope this turns out to be the case.


Tynion is a student of Synder's and Synder has said that he would love for one of his student  to pick up and play with the Duke character so Tynion's new writing project could be a  Duke solo or involve Duke.

I too have seen interviews where Synder teases/hints at a Duke solo so yeah it is coming.

----------


## ayanestar

> But this isn't a matter of a someone new taking over as Robin or Batgirl. This is a new, still underdeveloped character who, while he definitely has his fans, does not have close to the same backing that every Robin, every Batgirl, and almost every other non-extended Batfam member has, getting a solo book, while others either remain in limbo, are stuck as guest stars, or fight for panel time in 'Tec.


Duke is new and underdeveloped that's why he is getting more and more spotlight. How else do you expect a new character to get decent character development. His creator is also one of DC's top writers and nowadays you have to do more pushing to make a characters success. It makes perfectly sense no matter how much it pisses off other fanbases. It might be difficult to believe on this forum but Duke has a decent following, he has potential and fans who want to see more of him. My only problem with Snyder is how he keeps pushing Damian away when he is the one who should be by Batman's side. King sadly did nothing to change it. Snyder is obviously way too obsessed to make a huge impact on Batman and it's franchise but he is doing too much lately. He is a good writer and should be used elsewhere instead, he has done enough for Batman.

----------


## Assam

> We don't know plans for character in Tec could be some are gonna get solo or team up books. Surely if Cass, Steph and Tim got a well written team book you wouldn't resent Duke having a successful solo since you are getting what you want. You have been very vocal about how much you would love such a book.
> 
> Violet has her own book and she is new do you resent her? New character's are introduced and given books all the time.


Look, I GET that it's impossible to please everyone, because obviously, everyone has different tastes. If Tim, Cass, and Steph got their team book, who knows, maybe die hard Batwing fans would resent them. 

I've gone over before how every major Batfam member could be included in an equally spaced book, while still keeping the total number of Batbooks under 10. There IS a way to give the fans of ALL these characters a decent amount of time with them each month. 

I don't resent Violet, no. 1) Because she's not Batfamily, 2) Because from what I've heard she's got an interesting personality and backstory, and 3) Because up until just now, since I pay very little attention to Young Animal, I didn't even realize she was a Gotham based character.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

_Another_ former student of Snyder's writing class getting work on a newly launched series? This all sounds like blatant nepotism at the Bat-Office, which is pretty much at this point "Snyder 'n' Pals."

----------


## Atlanta96

> Back then people were furious when Dick was supposed to grow up and replaced with a new kid however I think it was simply because people loved the Robin they already had and didn't want him to grow up. Today the situation is different. I personally could care less about Tim and Jason but the hate against Duke is obviously because of jealousy. Fans of Tim, Cass, Steph etc. want to see their favorites getting a solo and more stories and are not willing to accept new characters. They will make all kind of excuses how he is a bland character and a copy of Tim or whatever you want to believe. People also hated Damian especially fans of Tim. Fans of Jason and Dick don't always get along either. Fans of the other Batgirls hate on Babs (and Kate). There are also a lot of Batman fans who dislike having the other members of the franchise around because they prefer solo Batman. I personally still dont like Duke or Harper because I think there are more than enough characters in the Batfamily but I like what Snyder is doing with him right now and I did like We Are Robin so I don't mind to see more of him. Harper however can die as far as I care. Anyway all characters used to be new at some point, nowadays it is more difficult to indroduce characters because they have a lot of competition but if DC keep pushing them and include them in some books they will gain a fanbase. Duke already has a decent following for a new character. In 10-20 years there will be new characters again and then fans of Duke and Harper might complain about the same thing as most fans are doing right now.


A) No, he doesn't have a decent following. I once again bring up the poll showing that only 10% of people on these boards like him and over half are indifferent. Almost no one on Twitter or Tumblr talks about him (I've checked) even when an issue of All Star has just come out. Even most of his defenders will admit he's boring or underdeveloped, that is not a sign of a thriving character.

B) People don't hate Duke because of jealousy, he's a genuinely bad and underdeveloped character who is wasting panel time and filling the Bat-books with dead weight. It's a hatred of bad creative decisions and a refusal to learn from mistakes than jealousy. Moments like "Duke is better than Robin" and "Duke is Batman's greatest ally" only make it worse.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Tynion is a student of Synder's and Synder has said that he would love for one of his student  to pick up and play with the Duke character so Tynion's new writing project could be a  Duke solo or involve Duke.
> 
> I too have seen interviews where Synder teases/hints at a Duke solo so yeah it is coming.


I saw the interview to where he teases that there maybe a Duke solo, but I he have been saying for a while now that it is something that he wants one of his student to do, after Metal so I don't think it something happening any time soon.

----------


## dietrich

> Duke is new and underdeveloped that's why he is getting more and more spotlight. How else do you expect a new character to get decent character development. His creator is also one of DC's top writers and nowadays you have to do more pushing to make a characters success. It makes perfectly sense no matter how much it pisses off other fanbases. It might be difficult to believe on this forum but Duke has a decent following, he has potential and fans who want to see more of him. My only problem with Snyder is how he keeps pushing Damian away when he is the one who should be by Batman's side. King sadly did nothing to change it. Snyder is obviously way too obsessed to make a huge impact on Batman and it's franchise but he is doing too much lately. He is a good writer and should be used elsewhere instead, he has done enough for Batman.


Correct. And as a Damian fan I'm okay with the lack of Robin in Batbooks because he is in good stories elsewhere so my needs are being met. If Tec characters are in good stories somewhere isn't that what matters? 
Why resent a character cos they have a solo if you have good stories featuring your favourites.

----------


## nightbird

Well, Duke is not messing with any my favorite characters (they all have solo books), so it's not me being "jealous", but honestly as a character for me he is a ketchup or mayonnaise. Don't go good by himself. So, I don't see what "new and interesting" his possible solo could ever bring to Batbooks. On the other hand if it means that we will get rid of him from main Batbooks, I'm okay with it lol

----------


## ayanestar

> A) No, he doesn't have a decent following. I once again bring up the poll showing that only 10% of people on these boards like him and over half are indifferent. Almost no one on Twitter or Tumblr talks about him (I've checked) even when an issue of All Star has just come out. Even most of his defenders will admit he's boring or underdeveloped, that is not a sign of a thriving character.
> 
> B) People don't hate Duke because of jealousy, he's a genuinely bad and underdeveloped character who is wasting panel time and filling the Bat-books with dead weight. It's a hatred of bad creative decisions and a refusal to learn from mistakes than jealousy. Moments like "Duke is better than Robin" and "Duke is Batman's greatest ally" only make it worse.


A) Make up all kind of excuses you want. The poll thing you bring up every time is simply ridiculous so I won't even bother with it. I follow enough people on tumblr, twitter and what not to know that there are enough people who want to see more of Duke. There is a decent amount of people who are interested in him despite all the hate he gets. You are a primary example of such people especially on this forum, you even go so far to bring your hate of his own appreciation thread so yes you are like the least person I want to have this discussion with.

B) Yes it is called jealousy when people complain over and over again how their favorites deserve so much better because they have a larger fanbase and have been around for longer - well yes newsflash these characters also have been created a long time ago compared to Duke. I agree that Duke had a rather bad first impression and character development when he was introduced but right now I like what Snyder is doing with him and I'm willing to give him a 2nd chance.




> Correct. And as a Damian fan I'm okay with the lack of Robin in Batbooks because he is in good stories elsewhere so my needs are being met. If Tec characters are in good stories somewhere isn't that what matters? 
> Why resent a character cos they have a solo if you have good stories featuring your favourites.


Damian is thankfully popular enough that he can survive outside of Batman's shadow now and I love to see him in other books and building up relationships outside of his family but it still makes me angry how all the effort of Batman and Robin are ignored. It is however just stupid how much hate some users are spreading. 




> Well, Duke is not messing with any my favorite characters (they all have solo books), so it's not me being "jealous", but honestly as a character for me he is a ketchup or mayonnaise. Don't go good by himself, not intesring or tasty enough. So, I don't see what "new and interesting" his possible solo could ever bring to Batbooks. On the other hand if it means that we will get rid of him from main Batbooks, I'm okay with it lol


There are almost no "new and interesting" books beside Batman. Nightwing also always suffers from the fact that he is usually doing almost the same as Batman, reason number #73846 why I hate him in Blüdhaven. Batgirl is also doing the same just in a silly and childrish way. If Tim ever gets a solo again he will also be doing the exact same thing. I do agree that Duke works better with others, I would like to see him with Nightwing and Damian. I'm not sure how many solo books the Batman franchise can sell but I wouldn't mind a mini series.

----------


## dietrich

> A) No, he doesn't have a decent following. I once again bring up the poll showing that only 10% of people on these boards like him and over half are indifferent. Almost no one on Twitter or Tumblr talks about him (I've checked) even when an issue of All Star has just come out. Even most of his defenders will admit he's boring or underdeveloped, that is not a sign of a thriving character.
> 
> B) People don't hate Duke because of jealousy, he's a genuinely bad and underdeveloped character who is wasting panel time and filling the Bat-books with dead weight. It's a hatred of bad creative decisions and a refusal to learn from mistakes than jealousy. Moments like "Duke is better than Robin" and "Duke is Batman's greatest ally" only make it worse.


You've checked. I would question why you spend your free time checking the internet for mentions or fans of Duke a character you dislike but....

Not jealousy? Yeah right. The guy's solo isn't even out and some are already hoping for the worst. Hoping that a successful Duke solo results in widespread resentment smacks of jealousy to me.

----------


## dietrich

> I saw the interview to where he teases that there maybe a Duke solo, but I he have been saying for a while now that it is something that he wants one of his student to do, after Metal so I don't think it something happening any time soon.


Yeah I saw that too and those new books that are coming are coming after Metal so I think it will be amongst those. I really won't be surprised if it's Tynion

----------


## Assam

> Duke is new and underdeveloped that's why he is getting more and more spotlight. *How else do you expect a new character to get decent character development*.


A new character definitely needs a push. But what good has the push done for Duke as a character? 

Tim was introduced in the pages of Batman, got a few minis, and by the time he got a solo, he was a fully fleshed out character. 

Steph, the character never actually MEANT to be part of the Batfamily, appeared in one story, just one, but after Dixon used her again in Robin, there was enough demand for more Steph because of how engaging she was that she just started appearing more in Robin, her appearances slowly becoming more frequent, with her development happening in these stories, until eventually becoming something of a co-star. 

Plenty of other examples I could list of well executed introductions of new Batfamily members from both the 90's and even a few cases of more modern times. 

I recently read "We Are Robin" for the first time, and while I don't think it was bad at all, if he was the one they wanted to push ,Duke shouldn't have been the least interesting of the Robins in that book. That should have been for Duke what Robin's minis, Huntress's solo book (BTW, great example of a new character starting off in a solo done well, right there), and Sword of Azrael did for their respective new characters. Had it been, who knows? I might be on Duke's side, rather than in the indifferent but frustrated zone.

----------


## Atlanta96

> You've checked. I would question why you spend your free time checking the internet for mentions or fans of Duke a character you dislike but....
> 
> Not jealousy? Yeah right. The guy's solo isn't even out and some are already hoping for the worst. Hoping that a successful Duke solo results in widespread resentment smacks of jealousy to me.


A term search takes about 5 minutes total. It's not a significant portion of my free time.

Is criticizing bad creative decisions really jealousy? You've got the Bat-Family in shambles after the New 52, almost no one is as important as they were before the reboot, and instead of fixing things they decide to put all their energy into a nothing of a character nobody asked for? That's just stupid. Hating stupid decisions isn't jealousy.

----------


## Atlanta96

> A) Make up all kind of excuses you want. The poll thing you bring up every time is simply ridiculous so I won't even bother with it. I follow enough people on tumblr, twitter and what not to know that there are enough people who want to see more of Duke. There is a decent amount of people who are interested in him despite all the hate he gets. You are a primary example of such people especially on this forum, you even go so far to bring your hate of his own appreciation thread so yes you are like the least person I want to have this discussion with.
> 
> B) Yes it is called jealousy when people complain over and over again how their favorites deserve so much better because they have a larger fanbase and have been around for longer - well yes newsflash these characters also have been created a long time ago compared to Duke. I agree that Duke had a rather bad first impression and character development when he was introduced but right now I like what Snyder is doing with him and I'm willing to give him a 2nd chance.


LOL you know a few people on Tumblr who like Duke that makes a huge difference, but an anonymous poll showing that almost no one likes the guy is completely irrelevant. Come on, you can be better than this.

And once again, hating terrible creative decisions is not jealousy. Especially when the majority of the fandom agrees that those decisions are feces. Hating on terrible characters is admirable work that everyone should join in on.

----------


## Assam

> LOL you know a few people on Tumblr who like Duke that makes a huge difference, but an anonymous poll showing that almost no one likes the guy is completely irrelevant. Come on, you can be better than this.


Dude, I'm saying this as someone whose closest to your side in this discussion: Stop bringing up the poll. 

This is just one forum. The number  of voters in that one poll was only 114.  You HAVE some valid points. Bringing up the poll only serves to weaken your arguments, and makes you seem desperate.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Dude, I'm saying this as someone whose closest to your side in this discussion: Stop bringing up the poll. 
> 
> This is just one forum. The number  of voters in that one poll were only 114.  You HAVE some valid points. Bringing up the poll only serves to weaken your arguments, and makes you seem desperate.


Ok, what do you suggest as an alternative?

----------


## skyvolt2000

> We don't know plans for character in Tec could be some are gonna get solo or team up books. *Surely if Cass, Steph and Tim got a well written team book you wouldn't resent Duke having a successful solo since you are getting what you want.* You have been very vocal about how much you would love such a book.
> 
> Violet has her own book and she is new do you resent her? New character's are introduced and given books all the time.


Lets see X-men fans got what they wanted yet still HARASS Inhuman fans and books.

You can give Tim, Cassandra, Batwing and the rest their own books and the same fans will still go ham in their hatred of Duke. Because they want him gone.

And your point about Violet is right. Why does she get a free pass? In fact why does Jessica & Simon get a free pass? While if that was Duke or John Stewart-the outrage would make the Marvel backlash look tame.

She is still taking a book slot from the established guys. Why is she and the Gotham kids immune.

We keep hearing all this crap about pets but Jessica & Simon are PETS as those 2 took Hal's spots in 2 books.





> Duke is new and underdeveloped that's why he is getting more and more spotlight. How else do you expect a new character to get decent character development. His creator is also one of DC's top writers and nowadays you have to do more pushing to make a characters success. It makes perfectly sense no matter how much it pisses off other fanbases.


While this is true, it can be done without some of the stuff we have seen.

Tim had consistent development in Batman when he showed up. Followed by 3 minis-1 started 2 years after he appeared. Followed by his own series. No one got screwed over. No one with a hard on for the Silver Age was around. No one viewed this guy or that guy as a threat.

That only happened after certain folks got in charge. Who decided there can only be one-as you see with Barry Allen, Wally West & Fake Wally. Or Cyborg the only black guy with a solo and the worst trade sales of all minority characters at DC.

If we were back in the 90s-

Duke pops up in Batman. Gets a story in DC SHowcase. Gets a series. He might pop up in Young Justice.

All this happens and not at the expense of Tim nor Stephanie nor Cassandra.

----------


## Assam

> Ok, what do you suggest as an alternative?


Pretty much everything else you say. You make your points in a very heated way, and that turns some people off (I completely understand why you're so passionate though  :Cool: ), but ignoring the pathos behind your rhetoric, all of your points besides the poll are valid to some degree.

----------


## nightbird

> There are almost no "new and interesting" books beside Batman. Nightwing also always suffers from the fact that he is usually doing almost the same as Batman, reason number #73846 why I hate him in Blüdhaven. Batgirl is also doing the same just in a silly and childrish way. If Tim ever gets a solo again he will also be doing the exact same thing. I do agree that Duke works better with others, I would like to see him with Nightwing and Damian. I'm not sure how many solo books the Batman franchise can sell but I wouldn't mind a mini series.


Dick is different from Batman, he does suffer most of the time from the fact that he tied down to Bat mythology and DC afraid to push him too much, so nothing important ever happens in his books (also Nu52 messed up him a lot), but honestly you don't read his book thinking "that what Batman would do, this is exactly Batman story here", no matter how much you associate Bludhaven with Gotham. Same with Batgirl. Now Duke has nothing to offer that other Batkids can't offer. This is my problem with the guy. He is "been there, done this". With so many predecessors I bet it was a hard task to come up with something new for another Bat sidekick, yet not impossible, instead they went and created Duke. He has mediocrity written all over him and excuse me if I'm not found of having him around in books that I read.
That being said, he can have this solo. I personally don't think it would work, but there is a room to prove me wrong, also I can always drop it or never pick it up in the first place. And I guess his fans should have a chance to show support and love for their favorite character.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Pretty much everything else you say. You make your points in a very heated way, and that turns some people off (I completely understand why you're so passionate though ), but ignoring the pathos behind your rhetoric, all of your points besides the poll are valid to some degree.


So the lack of enthusiasm or discussion about Duke on social media, poor sales of We are Robin, overexposure of the character and un-earned inclusion in a major event, and points regarding his writing and development are all valid?




> Now Duke has nothing to offer that other Batkids can't offer. This is my problem with the guy. He is "been there, done this". With so many predecessors I bet it was a hard task to come up with something new for another Bat sidekick, yet not impossible, instead they went and created Duke. He has mediocrity written all over him and excuse me if I'm not found of having him around in books that I read.


You're wrong, he has radar sense. That makes him totally unique different from everyone else and he will carve out his own special role in the DCU because of it. Checkmate, haters!

----------


## Assam

> So the lack of enthusiasm or discussion about Duke on social media, poor sales of We are Robin, overexposure of the character and un-earned inclusion in a major event, and points regarding his writing and development are all valid?


To VERY different degrees, I'd say yes. (Please don't ask which ones I view as the most and least valid. I honestly don't feel like breaking that down right now)

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Dude, I'm saying this as someone whose closest to your side in this discussion: Stop bringing up the poll. 
> 
> This is just one forum. The number  of voters in that one poll was only 114.  You HAVE some valid points. Bringing up the poll only serves to weaken your arguments, and makes you seem desperate.


I voted indifferent on that poll and I actually like Duke.

I don't think Duke is that popular, but he does have a growing fan base and I also know that DC is getting enough good feedback from fans who like the character that it have caught their attention,it was editorial who pushed Snyder, to make him a bigger part of the Dark Days story. This was not simply Snyder forcing his "pet" character into a story, he was always going to be there but editorial decided that they want some of the things that was planned for him to happen on a bigger stage and not in a backup.

----------


## nightbird

> Lets see X-men fans got what they wanted yet still HARASS Inhuman fans and books.


This is the saddest thing that I've ever read lmfao /s/

----------


## Assam

> This is the saddest thing that I've ever read lmfao /s/


I take it you haven't read about anything involving America in the past year, have you?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> You're wrong, he has radar sense. That makes him totally unique different from everyone else and he will carve out his own special role in the DCU because of it. Checkmate, haters!


Oh yeah. Totally forget about it. Now he is for sure "better than Robin" and you bet I'm jealous.




> I take it you haven't read about anything involving America in the past year, have you?


I did. But I have China and Russia around myself to cry about first. You guys too far from me  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> A term search takes about 5 minutes total. It's not a significant portion of my free time.
> 
> Is criticizing bad creative decisions really jealousy? You've got the Bat-Family in shambles after the New 52, almost no one is as important as they were before the reboot, and instead of fixing things they decide to put all their energy into a nothing of a character nobody asked for? That's just stupid. Hating stupid decisions isn't jealousy.


No criticising bad creative decisions isn't jealousy. However I call shenanigans and  say I don't believe you when you say there is no jealousy.




> Dick is different from Batman, he does suffer most of the time from the fact that he tied down to Bat mythology and DC afraid to push him too much, so nothing important ever happens in his books (also Nu52 messed up him a lot), but honestly you don't read his book thinking "that what Batman would do, this is exactly Batman story here", no matter how much you associate Bludhaven with Gotham. Same with Batgirl. Now Duke has nothing to offer that other Batkids can't offer. This is my problem with the guy. He is "been there, done this". With so many predecessors I bet it was a hard task to come up with something new for another Bat sidekick, yet not impossible, instead they went and created Duke. He has mediocrity written all over him and excuse me if I'm not found of having him around in books that I read.
> That being said, he can have this solo. I personally don't think it would work, but there is a room to prove me wrong, also I can always drop it or never pick it up in the first place. And I guess his fans should have a chance to show support and love for their favorite character.


The guy is barely in two books!
Well Duke had WAR that was different and wouldn't have been the same with any other of the Batkids, Now we might have Dayman or this new Meta stuff. Point is why don't you wait to see what their big reveal is before you write him off. This new direction might just wow you.

From small acorns dude.

----------


## dietrich

> I voted indifferent on that poll and I actually like Duke.
> 
> I don't think Duke is that popular, but he does have a growing fan base and I also know that DC is getting enough good feedback from fans who like the character that it have caught their attention,it was editorial who pushed Snyder, to make him a bigger part of the Dark Days story. This was not simply Snyder forcing his "pet" character into a story, he was always going to be there but editorial decided that they want some of the things that was planned for him to happen on a bigger stage and not in a backup.


That's what Synder said but me thinks that Synder helped convince them. Though Duke a black character taking off is a big win for DC.

----------


## nightbird

> The guy is barely in two books!
> Well Duke had WAR that was different and wouldn't have been the same with any other of the Batkids, Now we might have Dayman or this new Meta stuff. Point is why don't you wait to see what their big reveal is before you write him off. This new direction might just wow you.
> 
> From small acorns dude.


I still read that two books. 
I remember not liking WAR and him being the weakest link in it. 
As I said, there is a room to prove me wrong. But as we're talking right now, he is not pushing the envelope.

----------


## dietrich

> Look, I GET that it's impossible to please everyone, because obviously, everyone has different tastes. If Tim, Cass, and Steph got their team book, who knows, maybe die hard Batwing fans would resent them. 
> 
> I've gone over before how every major Batfam member could be included in an equally spaced book, while still keeping the total number of Batbooks under 10. There IS a way to give the fans of ALL these characters a decent amount of time with them each month. 
> 
> I don't resent Violet, no. 1) Because she's not Batfamily, 2) Because from what I've heard she's got an interesting personality and backstory, and 3) Because up until just now, since I pay very little attention to Young Animal, I didn't even realize she was a Gotham based character.


Quite the Artful dodger aren't you.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> That's what Synder said but me thinks that Synder helped convince them. Though Duke a black character taking off is a big win for DC.


Agreed I don't believe that Snyder had no role in convincing them, companies to look at feedback and from why I heard it has been mostly positive and they are getting interest from young new readers which what comic companies like to hear.

It is not like it was with Harper, they were getting positive feedback from her also but there was also a huge backlash because of the lack of Cass and Steph. Duke is not really getting any real backlash even though Tim is not around. I think most fans don't connect the absence of Tim to Duke, the way they did with the absence of Steph and ass to Harper.

----------


## Atlanta96

> That's what Synder said but me thinks that Synder helped convince them. Though Duke a black character taking off is a big win for DC.


Of course he did. DC didn't call him up out of nowhere and tell him to push Duke even harder, it's all Snyder's doing.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> *I recently read "We Are Robin" for the first time, and while I don't think it was bad at all, if he was the one they wanted to push ,Duke shouldn't have been the least interesting of the Robins in that book.* That should have been for Duke what Robin's minis, Huntress's solo book (BTW, great example of a new character starting off in a solo done well, right there), and Sword of Azrael did for their respective new characters. Had it been, who knows? I might be on Duke's side, rather than in the indifferent but frustrated zone.


Glad someone else noticed that too.

With the way that book was promoted-you thought it was about him not the others. While falls on DC editors for not doing their jobs.





> Especially when the majority of the fandom agrees that those decisions are feces. Hating on terrible characters is admirable work that everyone should join in on.


What majority? 

So have you met every single comic book fan on this planet we called Earth?

What defines a terrible character? I know plenty of folks who HATE Hal Jordan, Real Wally West, Superman, Batman and so on.

If you listen to X-Men fans its all Inhumans.

If you listen to certain retailers its' any book that stars a POC, LGBT & women.

So if we don't listen to them why would we listen to you? 

Because if I look at Amazon.com sales of superhero trades who outsells every single DC character not named Batman or Flash-some minority named Black Panther with 3 top 20 books and one in the top 10(at one point) . He outsells all the X-Men too. 5 in the top 300.

And Duke's We Are Robin trades are doing better then Tim & Damian's trades. In fact they are doing better than face of black heroes Cyborg whose trades are below 3,000.

SOOO whose right this forum or all those folks who bought those trades? So all 100,000+ folks who bought We Are Robin have bad taste?

I think Dc will pay attention to Amazon.com.




> s criticizing bad creative decisions really jealousy?


When you OBSESS over it-it is. It's X-Men behavior. It's Rich Rider behavior. To constantly attack a character to the point no one can have a civil discussion.




> You've got the Bat-Family in shambles after the New 52, almost no one is as important as they were before the reboot, and instead of fixing things they decide to put all their energy into a nothing of a character nobody asked for? That's just stupid. Hating stupid decisions isn't jealousy.


Nobody asked for Mother Panic. Yet she gets a free pass.
Nobody wants Cyborg in Justice League.
Nobody wanted John, Kyle & Guy stuck in a book with Hal.
Nobody asked for ANY of the Hanna Barbera books.
Nobody asked for the Dark Matter books.
Yet they are all around.

The Bat family is a mess because certain folks with POWER caused it. Who ruined Tim's generation? Who got into it with Cassandra & Stephanie fans?

It wasn't Duke Thomas. This mess started long before Snyder got hired.

Take your rage out on those who DESERVE it. Funny Johns, Dan & Jim Lee get free passes.

Failure of the pass are now issues of today.

----------


## dietrich

> Agreed I don't believe that Snyder had no role in convincing them, companies to look at feedback and from why I heard it has been mostly positive and they are getting interest from young new readers which what comic companies like to hear.
> 
> It is not like it was with Harper, they were getting positive feedback from her also but there was also a huge backlash because of the lack of Cass and Steph. Duke is not really getting any real backlash even though Tim is not around. I think most fans don't connect the absence of Tim to Duke, the way they did with the absence of Steph and ass to Harper.


What they did with Harper in BRE was very stupid and a kick in the crotch to Robin fans. When I heard that better than Robin line I feared he was about to do the same with Duke.

I hope Synder does pass Duke on to someone else cos honestly that guy is Duke's biggest problem.
 He works so hard to alienate the character from the rest of the batfamily and that creates a divide. We need more scenes like the batboys at lunch and his cinema scene with Damian from Robin War.

If Duke had more interaction or a semblance of a relationship with Tim, Steph and Cass I bet some of their fans would warm to him and he needs to quit with the fan favourite nonsense. Duke isn't there yet but his fans are growing everyday.

Honestly find Duke boring under Synder [aside from the issue where he went to the youth centre] I enjoy him the most when written by others.

----------


## Aioros22

> Logical step...
> 
> Attachment 48743

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Of course he did. DC didn't call him up out of nowhere and tell him to push Duke even harder, it's all Snyder's doing.


Not that I am saying I believe this is what happen in this case but that actually happens.

While Snyder is their star writer and he get some leeway, editorial does have some control over him and what character he can use and where they can be used. For example, directions and plans he and other writers had for both Steph and Harper where changed last year due to what editorial wanted.

This is why we often hear that a writer might be planning to do this and that and it never comes into being because if editorial what to shift director they can. 

Yes, if they wanted to during an editorial meeting they would say we would like you to use this character here instead or think this would be the best place to develop this character, this happens all the time.

DC likes Snyder because he is a team player and he sells but he have not even reached the level of control Morrison had over characters directions in terms of being able to do what he wants.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What they did with Harper in BRE was very stupid and a kick in the crotch to Robin fans. When I heard that better than Robin line I feared he was about to do the same with Duke.
> 
> I hope Synder does pass Duke on to someone else cos honestly that guy is Duke's biggest problem.
>  He works so hard to alienate the character from the rest of the batfamily and that creates a divide. We need more scenes like the batboys at lunch and his cinema scene with Damian from Robin War.
> 
> If Duke had more interaction or a semblance of a relationship with Tim, Steph and Cass I bet some of their fans would warm to him and he needs to quit with the fan favourite nonsense. Duke isn't there yet but his fans are growing everyday.
> 
> Honestly find Duke boring under Synder [aside from the issue where he went to the youth centre] I enjoy him the most when written by others.


"Fans are growing everyday"

LOL based on what? What is happening in the Bat-books that is winning readers over to his side every day? You yourself say he is boring under Snyder, the one writer who regularly uses him anymore. His fans are a vast minority on every platform from Twitter to CBR and even diversity obsessed Tumblr. It's almost a year into Rebirth and his situation hasn't changed a bit, if anything the number of readers willing to give him a chance has probably shrunk.

----------


## btmarine23

> Glad someone else noticed that too.
> 
> With the way that book was promoted-you thought it was about him not the others. While falls on DC editors for not doing their jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What majority? 
> 
> ...


 Did Batwing have a solo comic well before Duke?   How does his TPB sell?

----------


## dietrich

> "Fans are growing everyday"
> 
> LOL based on what? What is happening in the Bat-books that is winning readers over to his side every day? You yourself say he is boring under Snyder, the one writer who regularly uses him anymore. His fans are a vast minority on every platform from Twitter to CBR and even diversity obsessed Tumblr. It's almost a year into Rebirth and his situation hasn't changed a bit, if anything the number of readers willing to give him a chance has probably shrunk.


Maybe I shouldn't say everyday since i really don't have any facts to back that up. Unlike some I don't devote 5 mins of my day to investigating Duke on the Internet. I have however noticed increased support for him on this site.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Maybe I shouldn't say everyday since i really don't have any facts to back that up. Unlike some I don't devote 5 mins of my day to investigating Duke on the Internet. I have however noticed increased support for him on this site.


Reading old posts, I can't find anyone on this site who supports this character who didn't back in 2016. Unsurprising, considering his lack of development and unique traits.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Glad someone else noticed that too.
> 
> With the way that book was promoted-you thought it was about him not the others. While falls on DC editors for not doing their jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What majority? 
> 
> ...


Skyvolt, I just checked Amazon. We Are Robin vol 1 currently ranks at #409 in DC Comics. Batman Beyond vol 1 with Tim Drake, the one that pissed off thousands of fans by killing off Terry, ranks at #239 in DC Comics. You said WaR trades sold better than Tim's trades. Why did you lie?

----------


## skyvolt2000

> That's what Synder said but me thinks that Synder helped convince them. *Though Duke a black character taking off is a big win for DC*.


Not really as DC's track record with black sis BAD.

They had access to Static. Who could wipe the floor with Miles Morales. Kids were going NUTS that he was in Young Justice yet we saw how that ended.

John Stewart-I don't even want to go there.

Vixen-see John

Black Lightning-if we were about BUSINESS-those issues with Tony would have been dealt with EARLIER.

Batwing-either one.

Steel-most successful black male lead and can't sniff a new series.

Cyborg-a JOKE who is fighting Static/TMNT/Ben 10 & Power Ranger villains in his book.

Yes Snyder did convince them-I will not debate that with anyone. You can't sit at DC HQ and see Black Panther, Sam Wilson, Miles Morales, Mosaic, Flint, Blue Marvel, Nick Fury Jr, Luke Cage and add in the tv debuts of Night Trasher, Alex Wilder & Cloak and be happy. In 6 years (7 if you count the tv shows) all these guys have done MORE than every single black character at DC.

Cyborg got beat by MOON GIRL.

So yes Snyder saw this as a shot to get HIS creation that top black male (teen) hero slot. I would have done the SAME thing except I would not have done it at the expense of others.

I would have done the backups in All Star. Main part of that book belongs to BATMAN only. Duke arc ends at issue 7 and one of the girls get the new back up.

Batman book him, Tim & Duke and if Tim had to go a better focus on him. Arc 2 would have been Bane storyline and arc 3 leads up with Duke and Metal.

I probably would have fought for a book with Tim, Cass, Steph & Duke. That would focus on development for all of them.

----------


## dietrich

> Reading old posts, I can't find anyone on this site who supports this character who didn't back in 2016. Unsurprising, considering his lack of development and unique traits.


That's a lie. i joined up in late 2016 and had my 1st debate with you around that time and have noticed new voices pitching in to voice their support. Heck there are new members who joined this year who have voiced their support for the character.

----------


## Assam

> I probably would have fought for a book with Tim, Cass, Steph & Duke. That would focus on development for all of them.


Throw Harper in there, and you've got your five teenagers with attitude ready to become the Power Rangers! XD Seriously, they're color coded, Duke's suit looks like some Power Rangers uniforms already (And actually as a huge PR fan I dig that), and as seen in Monster Men, the Batfamily has Zords! It's perfect! 

Really though, at this point, Duke NEEDS more relationships in the Batfam. The fast food restaurant scene is the best thing to come out King's run! 

Just look at Clayface, an even NEWER addition the Family. Being re-introduced in a team book meant he could instantly start making relationships, and both his development on his own during the Victim Syndicate,  as well as his interactions with Bruce, Cass, and Luke have all helped to flesh out the character. 

Honestly, while seeing Duke interact with my favorites  on a team COULD actually be cool so long as they didn't make him _consistently_ look better than the others, I'd settle just for having Duke's back-up stories be Brave and the Bold style. Introduce him to the rest of the Family one by one in short team-ups.

----------


## Atlanta96

> That's a lie. i joined up in late 2016 and had my 1st debate with you around that time and have noticed new voices pitching in to voice their support. Heck there are new members who joined this year who have voiced their support for the character.


Well if they're new members then they weren't on these boards at that time, were they?  :Smile:

----------


## dietrich

> Not really as DC's track record with black sis BAD.
> 
> They had access to Static. Who could wipe the floor with Miles Morales. Kids were going NUTS that he was in Young Justice yet we saw how that ended.
> 
> John Stewart-I don't even want to go there.
> 
> Vixen-see John
> 
> Black Lightning-if we were about BUSINESS-those issues with Tony would have been dealt with EARLIER.
> ...


So a black character taking off is not a win for DC?

----------


## Assam

> That's a lie. i joined up in late 2016 and had my 1st debate with you around that time and have noticed new voices pitching in to voice their support. Heck there are new members who joined this year who have voiced their support for the character.


Yeah, Dietrich is definitely right here. I only joined the forum a few months ago, but I've been following threads as a non-member for around a year. It's not a massive amount or anything, but there are definitely more Duke supporters these days.

----------


## dietrich

> Well if they're new members then they weren't on these boards at that time, were they?


Exactly so they are new voices showing support and that is increased support to the few when I joined.

----------


## dietrich

> Throw Harper in there, and you've got your five teenagers with attitude ready to become the Power Rangers! XD Seriously, they're color coded, Duke's suit looks like some Power Rangers uniforms already (And actually as a huge PR fan I dig that), and as seen in Monster Men, the Batfamily has Zords! It's perfect! 
> 
> Really though, at this point, Duke NEEDS more relationships in the Batfam. The fast food restaurant scene is the best thing to come out King's run! 
> 
> Just look at Clayface, an even NEWER addition the Family. Being re-introduced in a team book meant he could instantly start making relationships, and both his development on his own during the Victim Syndicate,  as well as his interactions with Bruce, Cass, and Luke have all helped to flesh out the character. 
> 
> Honestly, while seeing Duke interact with my favorites  on a team COULD actually be cool so long as they didn't make him _consistently_ look better than the others, I'd settle just for having Duke's back-up stories be Brave and the Bold style. Introduce him to the rest of the Family one by one in short team-ups.


This^^it's such a simple thing and so obvious I don't know why they don't do stuff like that. Sometimes I think they like division and fighting amongst fans.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Exactly so they are new voices showing support and that is increased support to the few when I joined.


You missed my point. My point was, no one on these boards seems to have changed their mind about Duke since 2016. Everyone who hated him still hates him and his defenders are still using the exact same arguments. Nothing's changed.

----------


## Atlanta96

I don't know about the rest of you but when I hate a character the LAST thing I want to see is them hooking up with my favorites. In fact I find it revolting.

If you hate Tim Drake but love Dick and Damian would more interaction among those 3 make you like Tim more? Of course it wouldn't, it's the exact same character you hate wasting the time of your personal favorites. The Gotham teens have better things to do than waste their time salvaging a broken character.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Throw Harper in there, and you've got your five teenagers with attitude ready to become the Power Rangers! XD Seriously, they're color coded, Duke's suit looks like some Power Rangers uniforms already (And actually as a huge PR fan I dig that), and as seen in Monster Men, the Batfamily has Zords! It's perfect! 
> 
> Really though, at this point, Duke NEEDS more relationships in the Batfam. The fast food restaurant scene is the best thing to come out King's run! 
> 
> Just look at Clayface, an even NEWER addition the Family. Being re-introduced in a team book meant he could instantly start making relationships, and both his development on his own during the Victim Syndicate,  as well as his interactions with Bruce, Cass, and Luke have all helped to flesh out the character. 
> 
> Honestly, while seeing Duke interact with my favorites  on a team COULD actually be cool so long as they didn't make him _consistently_ look better than the others, I'd settle just for having Duke's back-up stories be Brave and the Bold style. Introduce him to the rest of the Family one by one in short team-ups.


This was something similar to what they where planning pre Rebirth, if DC You was a success a new BOP type of book but Rebirth happened and the decided to put most of the Batkids in Detective, and for whatever reason Johns wanted Tim off the board.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I don't know about the rest of you but when I hate a character the LAST thing I want to see is them hooking up with my favorites. In fact I find it revolting.
> 
> If you hate Tim Drake but love Dick and Damian would more interaction among those 3 make you like Tim more? Of course it wouldn't, it's the exact same character you hate wasting the time of your personal favorites. The Gotham teens have better things to do than waste their time salvaging a broken character.


I don't know. If Tim and Duke got a team book, I could see Tim fans eventually growing to like Duke.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't know. If Tim and Duke got a team book, I could see Tim fans eventually growing to like Duke.


Not this one.

----------


## Katana500

> Throw Harper in there, and you've got your five teenagers with attitude ready to become the Power Rangers! XD Seriously, they're color coded, Duke's suit looks like some Power Rangers uniforms already (And actually as a huge PR fan I dig that), and as seen in Monster Men, the Batfamily has Zords! It's perfect! 
> 
> Really though, at this point, Duke NEEDS more relationships in the Batfam. The fast food restaurant scene is the best thing to come out King's run! 
> 
> Just look at Clayface, an even NEWER addition the Family. Being re-introduced in a team book meant he could instantly start making relationships, and both his development on his own during the Victim Syndicate,  as well as his interactions with Bruce, Cass, and Luke have all helped to flesh out the character. 
> 
> Honestly, while seeing Duke interact with my favorites  on a team COULD actually be cool so long as they didn't make him _consistently_ look better than the others, I'd settle just for having Duke's back-up stories be Brave and the Bold style. Introduce him to the rest of the Family one by one in short team-ups.


That would be awesome! 

I really think Duke should have been in TEC or maybe as a male sidekick for the BofP or something, cause I think characters relationships are sometimes what makes characters most interesting

----------


## dietrich

> You missed my point. My point was, no one on these boards seems to have changed their mind about Duke since 2016. Everyone who hated him still hates him and his defenders are still using the exact same arguments. Nothing's changed.


And I am telling you that's not true. People like TheKid, Aioros22 are just 2 off the top of my head. There are more whose ids I can't remember off the top of my head and I just couldn't be bothered to go check.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't know about the rest of you but when I hate a character the LAST thing I want to see is them hooking up with my favorites. In fact I find it revolting.
> 
> If you hate Tim Drake but love Dick and Damian would more interaction among those 3 make you like Tim more? Of course it wouldn't, it's the exact same character you hate wasting the time of your personal favorites. The Gotham teens have better things to do than waste their time salvaging a broken character.


I agree. Dd interacting with Tim will likely only result in me hating Tim more since his presence will over serve to sully the perfection that is Dick and Damian. 

But that's just cos I REALLY hate Tim.
However seeing as that poll which you put stock in states that the majority are indifferent to Duke then more interaction could sway them. 

Indifference isn't hate.

----------


## Atlanta96

> And I am telling you that's not true. People like TheKid, Aioros22 are just 2 off the top of my head. There are more whose ids I can't remember off the top of my head and I just couldn't be bothered to go check.


Oh look.

IMG_9995.jpg

Aioros22 has been defending Duke since June 2016, he hasn't been swayed at all. Nice try  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

7e7.jpg

Might post a real opinion later.

----------


## Pohzee

I thought I might weigh in here.

Duke is in a weird spot for me. Like many members of the extended Batfamily, I find his existence unnecessary. He is also a monument of much of what I have come to dislike about Scott Snyder's period as head of the Batline: his desire to leave a lasting mark on the mythos over good stories. Interviews where Snyder talks about the difficulty of finding a role for Duke solidifies in my mind without a doubt that he was created to placify his ego first and to tell stories second.

On the other hand, I have found him to be quite likable when written by other writers such as Tom King in both Robin War and I am Bane. And though I find his existence superfluous and he sometimes takes me out of a story, this is no different than any member of the Detective Comics cast.

So while I used to hate Duke Thomas, I would say that attitude towards him has mellowed somewhat. While I don't think that I can say that I like him, more hot and cold than anything, I'm certainly not a Duke hater like I used to be.

I think that my change in attitude of many posters here. Not all of the former Duke haters have become Duke fans, but their dislike has subsided to a degree that they are rather indifferent about it and don't feel the need to attack him. We've seen a quieting resistance and a growing population of new members who enjoy him. Like their counterparts in politics, comics conservatives often lose the long term battle against change as it is normalized to a new generation.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Like their counterparts in politics, comics conservatives often lose the long term battle against change as it is normalized to a new generation.


Ahem.

IMG_9996.JPG

----------


## Pohzee

> Ahem.
> 
> IMG_9996.JPG


Democracy. Federalism. Slavery. Woman's Rights. Desegregation. Gay marriage. Up next marijuana. _Long term_.

----------


## Assam

> Ahem.
> 
> IMG_9996.JPG


Oh look, its the Nazi Cheetoh who despite being a real person is somehow more evil than Lex Luthor.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Democracy. Federalism. Slavery. Woman's Rights. Desegregation. Gay marriage. Up next marijuana. _Long term_.


I'm not interested in arguing over politics. Point is, ypu never know who's going to win these battles anymore. Even if one side looks to have a 98% chance of winning, that 2% could still make all the difference.




> Oh look, its the Nazi Cheetoh who despite being a real person is somehow more evil than Lex Luthor.


I agree with this.

----------


## sakuyamons

Eh, I guess I'll post my opinion too

I don't mind Duke, I'm indifferent, however I can understand why Duke strikes a chord with some fans, especially with the 'Better than Robin' angle given on ASB and because...let's be real, there is nothing that Duke can't do than a previous estabilished character like Tim can do, unlike the other members of the family, who could find time away from Bruce in solo books (Nightwing), Team-ups (Titans, Young Justice, Teen Titans, Outlaws, Birds of Prey), Duke seems to be almost...grounded in Gotham.

It doesn't happen to Jon Kent, because a) the adventures with Superdad are always different from another, while there is a limit of things that you can do in Gotham before a crazy clown decides to screw around while hAvInG dIaLoGuE LiKe tHiS #damaged (we get it, Snyder, he is crazy), and strangely enough, it doesn't happen to Emiko Queen in Green Arrow even if she only features that book, it might be because she acts independent from Ollie imo. Then again, DC seems to have a plan for these characters, while I think Duke's plans only limit to the Bat-verse. 

I overall I think that a character with a estabilished fanbase like Tim should come first (It's getting tiresome, honestly, just bring him back from Oz' cell), but I wouldn't just throw Duke onto limbo like that. He has less of a shot than other returning characters like Steph or Cass who indeed have fans who waited for their return, but his fan-base is growing.

----------


## Pohzee

> I'm not interested in arguing over politics. Point is, ypu never know who's going to win these battles anymore. Even if one side looks to have a 98% chance of winning, that 2% could still make all the difference.


I'm not arguing my political beliefs. I am stating long term political trends based on the scope of history. You are looking at the short-term. The rules haven't changed now and things aren't any different, you need to broaden your scope of history. Look at the trends, not the specifics.




> Oh look, its the Nazi Cheetoh who despite being a real person is somehow more evil than Lex Luthor.


Hyperbole like this helped hand Trump the election.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm not arguing my political beliefs. I am stating long term political trends based on the scope of history. You are looking at the short-term. The rules haven't changed now and things aren't any different, you need to broaden your scope of history. Look at the trends, not the specifics.
> 
> 
> 
> Hyperbole like this helped hand Trump the election.


Sometimes progress moves in reverse, certain countries have become even more hostile towards women and LGBTs in recent years. If you see Duke's acceptance as the progressive outcome (I don't, I really really don't) that doesn't guarantee anything.

----------


## Assam

> Hyperbole like this helped hand Trump the election.


Really don't want to get into a political debate here, but I genuinely don't consider any part of the sentence I said to be hyperbole. 

Its not like I was spewing things like that during the election itself. I was too busy doing my part by phone banking and going door to door for Bernie.

----------


## Atlanta96

I've seen many claims today that Duke's fan base is growing. I ask again, based on what? What progress has his character made that has led to more support for him? In 10 months he has gained radar sense, an implied relationship with Gotham Girl, and an ugly costume. Is that enough to win people over to the side of Duke?

----------


## Pohzee

> I've seen many claims today that Duke's fan base is growing. I ask again, based on what? What progress has his character made that has led to more support for him? In 10 months he has gained radar sense, an implied relationship with Gotham Girl, and an ugly costume. Is that enough to win people over to the side of Duke?





> Sometimes progress moves in reverse, certain countries have become even more hostile towards women and LGBTs in recent years. If you see Duke's acceptance as the progressive outcome (I don't, I really really don't) that doesn't guarantee anything.


I am speaking from experience when I say that the hate that many users felt towards Duke has subsided. At the same time, new readers and members have no reason to dislike Duke. This is what brought up the progressive comparison in the first place. Like social progress, new members who were introduced to comics will not see anything wrong with him. At the same time, resistance towards Duke among will lessen as general opinion shifts. There is merit to the saying that conservatives are simply the liberals of a few decades ago. Look at Damian, he was initially received with widespread criticism but is now generally accepted by all but a few fringe members. Tim Drake was a new character at one point too, but by the time you were reading comics he was an established character that you accepted as legitimate. This is exactly the same way that new readers view Duke Thomas. 

From your arguments both about comics and politics, I can now see that your scope of view focused on the immediate past and present rather than history as a whole. 
To understand this world, you have to accept that you are not special and neither is your time in history. Everything is as it always was, humanity is not any different than it was and neither are the course of politics.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I am speaking from experience when I say that the hate that many users felt towards Duke has subsided. At the same time, new readers and members have no reason to dislike Duke. This is what brought up the progressive comparison in the first place. Like social progress, new members who were introduced to comics will not see anything wrong with him. At the same time, resistance towards Duke among will lessen as general opinion shifts. There is merit to the saying that conservatives are simply the liberals of a few decades ago. Look at Damian, he was initially received with widespread criticism but is now generally accepted by all but a few fringe members. Tim Drake was a new character at one point too, but by the time you were reading comics he was an established character that you accepted as legitimate. This is exactly the same way that new readers view Duke Thomas. 
> 
> From your arguments both about comics and politics, I can now see that your scope of view focused on the immediate past and present rather than history as a whole. 
> To understand this world, you have to accept that you are not special and neither is your time in history. Everything is as it always was, humanity is not any different than it was and neither are the course of politics.


Dude, new readers have no reason to care about Duke if he fails to become an interesting character. His handling since Rebirth has been underwhelming to put it nicely, a new reader isn't going to pick up All Star Batman and think Duke is some amazing character. Newcomers are gravitating towards Dick, or Jason, or maybe even the 'Tec cast who all stand out more than that block of wood. Don't compare him to Tim and Damian who were fully developed characters in the same amount of time it's taking Duke to get a damn codename.

Again, what evidence do you have that new readers are loving him?

And your point about subsiding hate for Duke doesn't mean much when you consider he still barely has any fans. Bringing it back to politics, I remember a quote describing the 2012 election. Saying "The guy a lot of people hate is still going to win over the guy who no one really likes". Duke is Romney in this situation, he doesn't have enough support to win. Obama, like the rest of the Bat-Family, has his share of haters. But his existing supporters still gave him the victory in the end.

Lack of seething hatred for Duke does not equal a growing fan base. People don't hate Ghostbusters as much as they did last year but that doesn't mean it's gained a fanbase since then. Emotions calm down over time, the only reason I'm still ranting about Duke is because I'm filled with hate and will never run out of it. In spite of growing indifference for the character, he has still failed to earn readers love.

----------


## Pohzee

> Dude, new readers have no reason to care about Duke if he fails to become an interesting character. His handling since Rebirth has been underwhelming to put it nicely, a new reader isn't going to pick up All Star Batman and think Duke is some amazing character. Newcomers are gravitating towards Dick, or Jason, or maybe even the 'Tec cast who all stand out more than that block of wood. Don't compare him to Tim and Damian who were fully developed characters in the same amount of time it's taking Duke to get a damn codename.


New readers will accept Duke as a legitimate member of the Batfamily because they know no different. In my opinion, Duke is getting more new development that the 'Tec team, who are simply going through the broadstrokes of older storylines.




> Again, what evidence do you have that new readers are loving him?


You yourself have acknowledged that many new members to CBR seem to be more accepting of Duke Thomas, and again, see my point above.




> And your point about subsiding hate for Duke doesn't mean much when you consider he still barely has any fans. Bringing it back to politics, I remember a quote describing the 2012 election. Saying "The guy a lot of people hate is still going to win over the guy who no one really likes". Duke is Romney in this situation, he doesn't have enough support to win. Obama, like the rest of the Bat-Family, has his share of haters. But his existing supporters still gave him the victory in the end.


And again you are looking at specific instances rather than larger trends that I have discussed above.




> Lack of seething hatred for Duke does not equal a growing fan base. People don't hate Ghostbusters as much as they did last year but that doesn't mean it's gained a fanbase since then. Emotions calm down over time.


People aren't talking about Ghostbusters anymore because the movie has been released. It's done. People have seen it and there is nothing more to say about it. Comics are a serialized medium that are continually ongoing. It's apples to oranges.




> The only reason I'm still ranting about Duke is because I'm filled with hate and will never run out of it. In spite of growing indifference for the character, he has still failed to earn readers love.


That cannot be healthy. I have said that I don't particularly like Duke Thomas either, but _man_ you have a deep rooted hatred for him.

----------


## Atlanta96

> New readers will accept Duke as a legitimate member of the Batfamily because they know no different. In my opinion, Duke is getting more new development that the 'Tec team, who are simply going through the broadstrokes of older storylines.
> 
> 
> You yourself have acknowledged that many new members to CBR seem to be more accepting of Duke Thomas, and again, see my point above.
> 
> 
> And again you are looking at specific instances rather than larger trends that I have discussed above.
> 
> 
> ...


"Know no different"? LOL that's a bit patronizing. I'm not an avid manga reader but if I were to get into it I wouldn't call myself a fan of the first character I read if I thought they were boring and unlikable. New readers will pick and choose their favorites based on who's written best. They probably won't fall for the dullard in the Power Ranger getup.

----------


## Pohzee

> "Know no different"? LOL that's a bit patronizing. I'm not an avid manga reader but if I were to get into it I wouldn't call myself a fan of the first character I read if I thought they were boring and unlikable. New readers will pick and choose their favorites based on who's written best. They probably won't fall for the dullard in the Power Ranger getup.


Who's your favorite Robin? Who's your favorite Batgirl? Why do you like the 'Tec cast so much? Reflect upon that.

And new readers will certainly believe that Duke is a proper member of the Batfamily because he will have been a member of the Batfamily when they started. They literally would have no perspective of a time when he wasn't a member of the Batfamily in the proper context to believe otherwise.

----------


## Assam

> Who's your favorite Robin? Who's your favorite Batgirl? Why do you like the 'Tec cast so much? Reflect upon that.


I know what you're trying to say.  "They're who you found first so that's who you love." 

I don't know about Atlanta, though I'm sure they'll come in with their own response, buuuuuut, for me, my first Robin? Dick Grayson. First Batgirl? Barbara Gordon. 

For my first few years of comic reading, I only read Silver Age stuff. 

And yet despite them being the only characters I knew for so long, once I found the 90's Bats, they, not counting Oracle, couldn't hope to compete because I simply found everyone from Helena to Tim and Steph to Az and Cass to be more appealing and deeper characters. 

For a lot of people, yes, the first characters you meet are your favorites. But it's not the case with everyone.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> For a lot of people, yes, the first characters you meet are your favorites. But it's not the case with everyone.


TRUE.

The first Archie book I read was The Cartoon Life of Chuck Clayton by Alex Simmons. Before that my Archie collection was ZERO-after that it's 300 issues 90% of Archie at Riverdale (where it was about him & Chuck). That doesn't happen without Chuck.

I had ZERO issues of Tim's Robin run until Stephanie took over. I stayed from 126-180.

I even went back and got her first appearance. Now I own the first appearance of Tim, Duke, Cass & Stephanie.

The point is you don't know who will lead someone to get interested in other characters.

However that doesn't happen if every single comment aimed at one character is an insult. A reality Hal & Rich Rider fans are now learning. You can't keep being hostile towards folks and then wonder why sales under achieve and disinterest hits your favorite.

----------


## Frontier

> It doesn't happen to Jon Kent, because a) the adventures with Superdad are always different from another, while there is a limit of things that you can do in Gotham before *a crazy clown decides to screw around while hAvInG dIaLoGuE LiKe tHiS #damaged (we get it, Snyder, he is crazy)*, and strangely enough, it doesn't happen to Emiko Queen in Green Arrow even if she only features that book, it might be because she acts independent from Ollie imo. Then again, DC seems to have a plan for these characters, while I think Duke's plans only limit to the Bat-verse.


This is why I'm not looking forward to seeing Snyder write Joker again...

----------


## C_Miller

- My favorite part of the Batman Universe is the Bat-Family. 9 times out of 10, the characters are far more interesting to be than Bruce. That said, I find Bruce the most interesting when he's not with the Bat-Family save for a Robin here and there.

Kind of contradictory, but it makes sense in my head.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Who's your favorite Robin? Who's your favorite Batgirl? Why do you like the 'Tec cast so much? Reflect upon that.
> 
> And new readers will certainly believe that Duke is a proper member of the Batfamily because he will have been a member of the Batfamily when they started. They literally would have no perspective of a time when he wasn't a member of the Batfamily in the proper context to believe otherwise.


Tim Drake was probably the 3rd Robin I was exposed to. I knew Dick from the Teen Titans and Batman TAS cartoons and the first Robin I read in the comics was Damian. I didn't get to any Tim stories until a while later. He's my favorite Robin now, what does that tell you?

I'd been reading Barbara Gordon Batgirl for a while before I read anything featuring Steph or Cass. I don't like them the best because I read them first, they are genuinely better characters to me. Your point is moot, readers aren't going to fall in love with Duke just because they read him first. If they have sensibilities they'll probably find him boring.

And you don't like Duke either so stop trying so hard to defend him, stick up for characters who actually deserve it instead.

----------


## godisawesome

I really don't think anyone can objectively grade Duke's appeal. Trying to say that the "sensible" view is that he's boring betrays a bias that can, eventually, turn out to be only temporary. I was very cool on Damian Wayne at first, even though I knew the concept had strength. I only really came around to him after seeing how he could be utilized alongside Tim and Steph, and now I'm a fan. And I didn't really care for *Tim* at first; I only started taking note of his appeal once I became a fan of Young Justice and his straight-man comic role became apparent. Arguing that Duke as an IP is eating up creative resources and page time that other already successful characters could have *may* be a valid point, but that's a temporary thing; eventually the paradigm will shift one way or another.

Hating on Duke is a waste of effort, at least at the moment. He doesn't even have any badly written character moments to justify the anger, in contrast to, say, Tarantula in the 2000s when the character was supposed to be both a protagonist (for a time) and Nightwing's rapist. The main overriding issue people have with Duke is founded entirely on the meta-level, and it's not worth arguing there; writers will only respond to the financial success of the character if they know the complaint isn't rooted in the character's portrayal. 

Duke's fellow-traveler, Harper Rowe, shows what so fate may very well be of he doesn't fully catch on; a quiet fade into the background. And Harper arguably had a more intrusive push, considering her central role in two weeklies. I'd argue that she suffered from following what would be Stephanie Brown's plot beats, but I didn't hate her for that. And I can't hate Duke for existing as an IP when Tim's in Rebirth Rehab. 

It's pointless.

----------


## FishyZombie

> I really don't think anyone can objectively grade Duke's appeal. Trying to say that the "sensible" view is that he's boring betrays a bias that can, eventually, turn out to be only temporary. I was very cool on Damian Wayne at first, even though I knew the concept had strength. I only really came around to him after seeing how he could be utilized alongside Tim and Steph, and now I'm a fan. And I didn't really care for *Tim* at first; I only started taking note of his appeal once I became a fan of Young Justice and his straight-man comic role became apparent. Arguing that Duke as an IP is eating up creative resources and page time that other already successful characters could have *may* be a valid point, but that's a temporary thing; eventually the paradigm will shift one way or another.
> 
> Hating on Duke is a waste of effort, at least at the moment. He doesn't even have any badly written character moments to justify the anger, in contrast to, say, Tarantula in the 2000s when the character was supposed to be both a protagonist (for a time) and Nightwing's rapist. The main overriding issue people have with Duke is founded entirely on the meta-level, and it's not worth arguing there; writers will only respond to the financial success of the character if they know the complaint isn't rooted in the character's portrayal. 
> 
> Duke's fellow-traveler, Harper Rowe, shows what so fate may very well be of he doesn't fully catch on; a quiet fade into the background. And Harper arguably had a more intrusive push, considering her central role in two weeklies. I'd argue that she suffered from following what would be Stephanie Brown's plot beats, but I didn't hate her for that. And I can't hate Duke for existing as an IP when Tim's in Rebirth Rehab. 
> 
> It's pointless.


Very well said, and I absolutely agree. But what's an IP?

----------


## Caivu

Intellectual Property.

----------


## FishyZombie

> Intellectual Property.


I was going to guess "important player," thanks Caivu

----------


## dietrich

> Oh look.
> 
> Attachment 48755
> 
> Aioros22 has been defending Duke since June 2016, he hasn't been swayed at all. Nice try


Bloody good show Watson old chap!

Like i said I don't devote a portion of my day to Dukevestigations like you do hence why I've not been thorough and suck so bad at it. Next time while you're at it be helpful and check if the other poster I mentioned has been doing it since before I joined the site as well cos I could also be wrong about him/her there's a good lad. 

We must all work together to rid our beloved Batman comics of the scourge of bad creative directions and bland useless characters.

Again good work. Clearly I was wrong Duke does not have any new supporters since I first joined this site.

----------


## dietrich

> I'm not interested in arguing over politics. Point is, ypu never know who's going to win these battles anymore. Even if one side looks to have a 98% chance of winning, that 2% could still make all the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this.


No Atlanta the point is that unlike you claim and like I claimed but failed to prove the attitude towards Duke on this site since Nov 2016 has changed.

NightwingIvI might not be a Duke cheerleader but his attitude certainly changed and I know there are more. He isn't a beloved fan favourite like Harper but he's also not as hated as you say he is.

----------


## dietrich

> "Know no different"? LOL that's a bit patronizing. I'm not an avid manga reader but if I were to get into it I wouldn't call myself a fan of the first character I read if I thought they were boring and unlikable. New readers will pick and choose their favorites based on who's written best. They probably won't fall for the dullard in the Power Ranger getup.


What new fans will fall for a boring, unlikable piece of wood?
What new fans will gravitate towards Tim Drake ripoff Duke while the original dullard Tim Drake rots in Oz's Jail?

Mmmmm well ........ lol looks to me Atlanta that if you were a new reader. YOU would fall for Duke. 



Not even gonna lie that thought gives me so much pleasure  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## btmarine23

Why don't they just kill Duke like every other Robin?  They could then resurrect him and that could fail…then they can say "See death means something"  Snyder has a dream where he can write Bruce with children and Boom!  Cass is adopted, Steph is Robin and Damian is just his son.  Or the resurrection just kind of fails and he becomes Solomon Grundy's sidekick named Ghoul or Wraith or Duke.  Either way I like Duke.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What new fans will fall for a boring, unlikable piece of wood?
> What new fans will gravitate towards Tim Drake ripoff Duke while the original dullard Tim Drake rots in Oz's Jail?
> 
> Mmmmm well ........ lol looks to me Atlanta that if you were a new reader. YOU would fall for Duke. 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even gonna lie that thought gives me so much pleasure


LOL nice try. The main difference between Tim and Duke is that Tim is charismatic and likable and expresses a wide range of emotions. Meanwhile Duke is so bland he can hardly be bothered to show any emotion at all most issues. And then there's the hideous costume, and the fact that his development moves at a snails pace, and his lack of standout qualities.

Just because the film Eragon is a ripoff of Star Wars doesn't mean that people who haven't seen Star Wars will love Eragon. Although that's not really fair, comparing that film to Duke is really insulting to Eragon  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

Can't you guys have a proper discussion without calling characters names?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Tim is not dull, by the way. If he was dull he wouldn't be the only Robin that had an ongoing.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Can't you guys have a proper discussion without calling characters names? 
> 
> Tim is not dull, by the way.


They're fictional characters with no real feelings. Better to insult them than other posters, right?

----------


## WonderNight

well im just going to say i want steph to go join dick in nightwing and have her become dick's official partner /sidekick. it would give Steph a niche and a purpose all her own, also alot more room to grow with way more focus and panel time with just to main leads instead of 3 or 4 or 7 leads. Dick would gain a popular second lead and primary lead female like superman with lois, aquaman with mera ang green arrow with black canary. also bring both they fanbases together and both more popular.

plus we'd get alot more damian and steph when he shows up in nightwing. plus you can steal get your steph and cass and tim and harper etc in guses, coss and events.

that's what I want, is everyone else cool with this?

----------


## nightbird

> They're fictional characters with no real feelings. Better to insult them than other posters, right?


You know that for most people insulting character = insulting people who likes him/her lol
I'm passionate and protective of my favorites too xD

----------


## Atlanta96

> You know that for most people insulting character = insulting people who likes him/her lol
> I'm passionate and protective of my favorites too xD


I see people insult my favorites almost every day and I don't take it as a personal insult. It's not that hard to separate hatred of a character from a personal attack.

----------


## nightbird

> well im just going to say i want steph to go join dick in nightwing and have her become dick's official partner /sidekick. it would give Steph a niche and a purpose all her own, also alot more room to grow with way more focus and panel time with just to main leads instead of 3 or 4 or 7 leads. Dick would gain a popular second lead and primary lead female like superman with lois, aquaman with mera ang green arrow with black canary. also bring both they fanbases together and both more popular.
> 
> plus we'd get alot more damian and steph when he shows up in nightwing. plus you can steal get your steph and cass and tim and harper etc in guses, coss and events.
> 
> that's what I want, is everyone else cool with this?


Are you trying to torture me? 
Also Dick is one of those characters that doesn't need Lois, Mera and etc. type of females in his book, imo. Any Batfamily member could be a guest, but there is literally no need to make them regulars.

----------


## sakuyamons

> You know that for most people insulting character = insulting people who likes him/her lol
> I'm passionate and protective of my favorites too xD


Quoted for truth  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## btmarine23

> well im just going to say i want steph to go join dick in nightwing and have her become dick's official partner /sidekick. it would give Steph a niche and a purpose all her own, also alot more room to grow with way more focus and panel time with just to main leads instead of 3 or 4 or 7 leads. Dick would gain a popular second lead and primary lead female like superman with lois, aquaman with mera ang green arrow with black canary. also bring both they fanbases together and both more popular.
> 
> plus we'd get alot more damian and steph when he shows up in nightwing. plus you can steal get your steph and cass and tim and harper etc in guses, coss and events.
> 
> that's what I want, is everyone else cool with this?


 Right at this moment I like Tynion writing Stephand I like her with Cass for now.  But if Steph was going as Robin or BatgirlI would be really excited for that.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Right at this moment I like Tynion writing Steph…and I like her with Cass for now.  But if Steph was going as Robin or Batgirl…I would be really excited for that.


I agree.

I really want Steph to do a cameo on birds of prey. I feel it would do her a lot of good imo.

----------


## dietrich

> LOL nice try. The main difference between Tim and Duke is that Tim is charismatic and likable and expresses a wide range of emotions. Meanwhile Duke is so bland he can hardly be bothered to show any emotion at all most issues. And then there's the hideous costume, and the fact that his development moves at a snails pace, and his lack of standout qualities.
> 
> Just because the film Eragon is a ripoff of Star Wars doesn't mean that people who haven't seen Star Wars will love Eragon. Although that's not really fair, comparing that film to Duke is really insulting to Eragon


Those differences are all subjective dude. I like him more than Tim. I find Tim about as charismatic as a kick in the teeth.However one of the complaints and observations that have echoed across this site is that Duke is essential a black Tim Drake.

Sorry Dude its in my head and can't unthink it now. I'm not even gonna try  :Stick Out Tongue:  No wonder you spend those 5 mins a day tracking him on line.

----------


## dietrich

> Can't you guys have a proper discussion without calling characters names? 
> 
> Tim is not dull, by the way. If he was dull he wouldn't be the only Robin that had an ongoing.


I find him dull. 
Maybe he is the only one cos he was Robin so long and his run was unchallenged. We all know happened when other characters entered the field. Hard to choose a different option when you only have the ONE item on the menu. 

If Duke had come after Jason you can't say that he would not have had the same success.


I don't call characters names. I simply quoted Atlanta's words.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Those differences are all subjective dude. I like him more than Tim. I find Tim about as charismatic as a kick in the teeth.However one of the complaints and observations that have echoed across this site is that Duke is essential a black Tim Drake.
> 
> Sorry Dude its in my head and can't unthink it now. I'm not even gonna try  No wonder you spend those 5 mins a day tracking him on line.


Duke may intrude on Tim's role in the Bat-books because of certain similarities, but that doesn't make him as entertaining or well developed or even as good looking as Tim. Duke is so underdeveloped that Tom King can't even keep his character consistent between issues. Say what you want about Tim he never went from "We have to listen to Batman!" to "Hi Commissioner, I'm disobeying Batman right now!" in consecutive issues of 'Tec.




> I find him dull. 
> Maybe he is the only one cos he was Robin so long and his run was unchallenged. We all know happened when other characters entered the field. Hard to choose a different option when you only have the ONE item on the menu. 
> 
> If Duke had come after Jason you can't say that he would not have had the same success.


Stop pretending Duke is just as well developed as everyone else. It's been almost 4 years since his debut, who else in the Bat-books has taken this long to find their role in the books? This isn't normal, good characters don't have to be drawn out like this.

----------


## Aioros22

Tim is dull, Damian is a brat, Dick is a cheater and Jason is a rat. 

There you go. Punch some bags yearrrghh.

----------


## dietrich

> Duke may intrude on Tim's role in the Bat-books because of certain similarities, but that doesn't make him as entertaining or well developed or even as good looking as Tim. Duke is so underdeveloped that Tom King can't even keep his character consistent between issues. Say what you want about Tim he never went from "We have to listen to Batman!" to "Hi Commissioner, I'm disobeying Batman right now!" in consecutive issues of 'Tec.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop pretending Duke is just as well developed as everyone else. It's been almost 4 years since his debut, who else in the Bat-books has taken this long to find their role in the books? This isn't normal, good characters don't have to be drawn out like this.


As good looking? As good looking? Are you serious? That is an actual point that you are making? They are drawings that change frequently depending on the artist.  And again that is subjective.

I think you might need a lie down Atlanta.

----------


## dietrich

> Tim is dull, Damian is a brat, Dick is a cheater and Jason is a rat. 
> 
> There you go. Punch some bags yearrrghh.


Did that feel good?

Personally I like to think of Dick as generous with himself. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## ayanestar

> Tim is dull, Damian is a brat, Dick is a cheater and Jason is a rat. 
> 
> There you go. Punch some bags yearrrghh.


Perfect let's add "Duke is ugly" and we have all we need. Now move on guys it is getting ridiculous.

----------


## WonderNight

> Tim is dull, Damian is a brat, Dick is a cheater and Jason is a rat. 
> 
> There you go. Punch some bags yearrrghh.


don't you dare  talk bad about my dick... :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

I would if he wasn`t such a soap opera drag about it sometimes. And fellas, fellllass, Tumblr got the good lookings covered in spades for the boys. Leave it to experts.

----------


## nightbird

> Tim is dull, Damian is a brat, Dick is a cheater and Jason is a rat. 
> 
> There you go. Punch some bags yearrrghh.


Da heck. Why Jason and Dick's insults more offensive and stronger than Tim and Damian's. Not fair, I call you super biased.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, I`ll have to upgrade them, true believer. 

Then again, ask any woman if they like it dull. That`s the dead end, boy.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Perfect let's add "Duke is ugly" and we have all we need. Now move on guys it is getting ridiculous.


Me reading Batboy vs Batboy drama like 

IMG_6371.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> As good looking? As good looking? Are you serious? That is an actual point that you are making? They are drawings that change frequently depending on the artist.  And again that is subjective.
> 
> I think you might need a lie down Atlanta.


It was a joke. Calm down dear.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Me reading Batboy vs Batboy drama like 
> 
> IMG_6371.jpg


Sorry, but you'll have to take it up with DC for treating those boys so badly. Our anger is perfectly justified.

----------


## Assam

I missed the last few pages of the conversation, and reading through them just now, I gotta say, I was laughing my ass off.  :Wink:

----------


## sakuyamons

> Sorry, but you'll have to take it up with DC for treating those boys so badly. Our anger is perfectly justified.


There are some characters who got better treatment than others, though. And since they are all different they should be allowed to coexist

----------


## Atlanta96

> There are some characters who got better treatment than others, though. And since they are all different they should be allowed to coexist


When you force too many characters to coexist, the end result is this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ6gfbBfD_M

Sometimes, there isn't enough room for everyone.

----------


## Assam

> When you force too many characters to coexist, the end result is this.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ6gfbBfD_M
> 
> Sometimes, there isn't enough room for everyone.


I'm afraid I can't get behind that logic since that's basically what DC thought when they wiped Steph and Cass from existence. 

Oh yeah, you talk about the poor boys? THEY WERE ALLOWED TO EXIST!

----------


## dietrich

> It was a joke. Calm down dear.


It's okay I've mostly managed to find my words now.

I enjoy discussing with you Atlanta. The things you come out with once you're on a roll. Interesting.

----------


## nightbird

> I'm afraid I can't get behind that logic since that's basically what DC thought when they wiped Steph and Cass from existence. 
> 
> Oh yeah, you talk about the poor boys? THEY WERE ALLOWED TO EXIST!


As sad bunch of punchbags  :Frown:

----------


## sakuyamons

> As sad bunch of punchbags


It's better that than limbo...right?

----------


## nightbird

> It's better that than limbo...right?


Sometimes limbo is better, than character assassination.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Sometimes limbo is better, than character assassination.


...yes, good point. Especially when we had to endure n52 TT

----------


## dietrich

> Sorry, but you'll have to take it up with DC for treating those boys so badly. Our anger is perfectly justified.


We were angry?

----------


## sakuyamons

> We were angry?


We are DC fans, we are always angry.

----------


## nightbird

> ...yes, good point. Especially when we had to endure n52 TT


I stared reading DC comics only at the end of 2015,  yet even I was horrified with what they did to the characters.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I stared reading DC comics only at the end of 2015,  yet even I was horrified with what they did to the characters.


I was reading when n52 was starting, I was very confused because "? Why are they acting so different?"

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Controversial opinion/idea:

Bruce should be the only one putting themselves directly in harm's way.  This is his war and his cause alone.  He can and should haves allies like Alfred, Leslie, Lucius and Jim as they presently are.

But all the underage (less than 18 yrs) Robins and Batgirls should not be going up against adult criminal psychopaths.  

They should collectively be much more akin to Sherlock Holmes' "Baker Street Irregulars":  Bruce's eyes and ears on the street.  They can have codenames but no costumes.  They rarely if ever fight anything beyond henchmen by themselves.

No one else is probably going to like that idea, but well, there it is for your judgment anyway.

----------


## Assam

> Controversial opinion/idea:
> 
> Bruce should be the only one putting themselves directly in harm's way.  This is his war and his cause alone.  He can and should haves allies like Alfred, Leslie, Lucius and Jim as they presently are.
> 
> But all the underage (less than 18 yrs) Robins and Batgirls should not be going up against adult criminal psychopaths.  
> 
> They should collectively be much more akin to Sherlock Holmes' "Baker Street Irregulars":  Bruce's eyes and ears on the street.  They can have codenames but no costumes.  They rarely if ever fight anything beyond henchmen by themselves.
> 
> No one else is probably going to like that idea, but well, there it is for your judgment anyway.


If you think its a matter of age that's the problem, you must have REALLY hated the 90's where there were pretty much just as many teen heroes running around as adults. (If not MORE)

I'd also like to point out that "18 means adult" is not a universal concept.

----------


## sakuyamons

> If you think its a matter of age that's the problem, you must have REALLY hated the 90's where there were pretty much just as many teen heroes running around as adults. (If not MORE)


As "amoral" the idea is, i miss the times when there were more teen heroes than adults  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> As "amoral" the idea is, i miss the times when there were more teen heroes than adults


Same! Especially since all of those teen books were so damn good! 

Get her.jpg

I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamed that I can name all these kids XD

----------


## Frontier

> Same! Especially since all of those teen books were so damn good! 
> 
> Get her.jpg
> 
> I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamed that I can name all these kids XD


I'm not sure if I should be disappointed that I can't  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## nightbird

> I was reading when n52 was starting, I was very confused because "? Why are they acting so different?"


I guess even  if new readers think you screwed-up, then you for sure did something wrong.

----------


## Atlanta96

> We are DC fans, we are always angry.


Not angry enough if you ask me.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Not angry enough if you ask me.


Well, we managed to get rebirth, didn't we? :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well, we managed to get rebirth, didn't we?


Post deleted.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Well, we managed to get rebirth, didn't we?


But the damage to everybody was not undone.

Forcing John, Guy & Kyle fans to read Hal's love letter book is not a solution.

Two guys named Wally is not a solution.

Getting rid of Jason Rusch is not a solution

Cyborg still being a joke is not a solution.

The first two years of Rebirth should be about getting fans BACK not cherry picking who you want back.

I should not have to give up Tim for Duke, I should be able to have both in some form. I rather have a series about Tim in college with some of the MIA guys from his era in it. That could lead to a Young Justice series or a book in the vein of New Warriors. The same with Duke and the We Are Robin kids. Two new bat franchises that can be used like Harley to expand the empire. And do stories that can be done without messing up the other.

----------


## Frontier

> But the damage to everybody was not undone.
> 
> Forcing John, Guy & Kyle fans to read Hal's love letter book is not a solution.


Well, given that book isn't really that much of a Hal Jordan love letter and each of the other Earth Lanterns have had decent focus across it's run, I think it's as good a solution as we can get with only two Lantern books and all 4 stuck in one book. 




> Two guys named Wally is not a solution.


I don't think having two Wally Wests is ideal, but I personally think it's working for the best right now between _Titans_, _Flash_, and _Teen Titans_ unless you want much more of OG!Wally. 




> Getting rid of Jason Rusch is not a solution


The stuff with Jason was pre-Rebirth, and it's not like Firestorm is around in general for that to really be an issue yet.  




> Cyborg still being a joke is not a solution.


Define "joke." His sales aren't as great as they could be, but I've heard his solo is actually decent and I can't say there's been anything in his League appearances that warrants calling him a joke. 




> The first two years of Rebirth should be about getting fans BACK not cherry picking who you want back.


And haven't they for the most part? I don't think they're cherry-picking so much as just trying to do the best they can and include all the versions or characters that fans like without needing to downplay or discredit their main heroes. 




> I should not have to give up Tim for Duke, I should be able to have both in some form. I rather have a series about Tim in college with some of the MIA guys from his era in it. That could lead to a Young Justice series or a book in the vein of New Warriors. The same with Duke and the We Are Robin kids. Two new bat franchises that can be used like Harley to expand the empire. And do stories that can be done without messing up the other.


I don't think you need to give up Tim for Duke, much like I don't feel like enjoying Jon or Wally II means giving up on Conner and Bart, since there are obviously plans for them and the Young Justice generation given their notable absence in Rebirth.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Myths and horror. Snyder and Capullo doing a Wonder Woman title should be great.

Wes Anderson should do a campy Batmovie. Look at his insane setpieces and costumes! Tonally Batman'66.

After Gotham Academy (boarding school) I'd like to see a different institution: a hotel. Think of all the stuff that could happen there.

----------


## Assam

> After Gotham Academy (boarding school) I'd like to see a different institution: a hotel. Think of all the stuff that could happen there.


The Bat Life of Zack and Cody  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## batnbreakfast

> The Bat Life of Zack and Cody


Hmmmm... I was thinking Grand Budapest Hotel or The Shining. _Zack and Miri_ I know at least.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Why do you like Dark Knight, Dark City, guys? Never cared much for it but it ties into Morrison's run, no?

----------


## Carabas

> Why do you like Dark Knight, Dark City, guys? Never cared much for it but it ties into Morrison's run, no?


The other way round: Morrison's run ties into Dark Knight, Dark City.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> The other way round: Morrison's run ties into Dark Knight, Dark City.


My mistake. Did you like it? I don't but kinda want to? Am I missing an angle?

----------


## Carabas

I thought it was a clever little story that made the riddler something else than a joke for a change.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I thought it was a clever little story that made the riddler something else than a joke for a change.


Oh, Ok. I like Riddler more than most of the rogues gallery and a little goofy fits him well. For example: Yay, Dini Riddler and Gorshin Riddler. Nay, Winnick Riddler and Rocksteady Riddler. Oh, Snyder Riddler I liked as well.

----------


## Assam

> Oh, Ok. I like Riddler more than most of the rogues gallery and a little goofy fits him well. For example: Yay, Dini Riddler and Gorshin Riddler. Nay, Winnick Riddler and Rocksteady Riddler. Oh, Snyder Riddler I liked as well.


Good old Edward Nigma is definitely among my favorite Bat Rogues. Right up there with the original Ventriloquist and Pre-Flashpoint David Cain. (I like Clayface more than them, but only now that he's a hero, and Catman is my favorite DC villain in general, but I'm not if he still counts as a Batman rogue.)

----------


## Frontier

> Oh, Ok. I like Riddler more than most of the rogues gallery and a little goofy fits him well. For example: Yay, Dini Riddler and Gorshin Riddler. Nay, Winnick Riddler and Rocksteady Riddler. Oh, Snyder Riddler I liked as well.


Rocksteady Riddler's got Wally Wingert's performance and the writing really going for him in my opinion  :Smile: .

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

If Batman has to pop up on Arrow I wanna see a take similar to how he was portrayed in Beware the Batman. He was younger and more cerebral plus more optimistic with a dry sense of humor. Just felt like it be a better foil for Ollie given how he's portrayed in the show.

----------


## The Kid

The only truly important supporting characters to the Batman mythos are Alfred and James Gordon. Everyone else is negligible and can easily be replaced in different adaptations. That includes many characters I enjoy but I still think Bruce, Alfred, and Gordon are the only necessary absolutes

----------


## Frontier

> The only truly important supporting characters to the Batman mythos are Alfred and James Gordon. Everyone else is negligible and can easily be replaced in different adaptations. That includes many characters I enjoy but I still think Bruce, Alfred, and Gordon are the only necessary absolutes


I think you could extend that to potentially Robin and Catwoman, because of how integral they are and how important the roles they play in the mythos are. 

Though I guess Catwoman also still counts as a rogue and not a supporting character  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Kid

> I think you could extend that to potentially Robin and Catwoman, because of how integral they are and how important the roles they play in the mythos are. 
> 
> Though I guess Catwoman also still counts as a rogue and not a supporting character .


Yeah I consider Catwoman to be more a rogue who straddles that line. If you're including villains, then Joker is probably #3 and possibly even #2 behind only Batman himself. Hell, I think Batman v. Joker is as established with the general audience as a Batman and Robin team, possibly even more so considering how big The Dark Knight was almost 10 years ago (wow time flies..)

Robin is a very interesting concept in that I think he's def up there but he's not necessarily as important as Alfred and Gordon. I kinda am confused about where to put him. Ultimately though I think the concept of 'Robin' is an important supporting character but not necessarily any particular one themselves. If you know what I mean.. lol I don't know if I worded that properly

----------


## WonderNight

I don't know, robin think robin is very important to batman even more that alfred and jim but just in a different way. robins role for the bat franchise is different, al and jim are important for gotham story's and solo batman but robin helps extend the the Batman brand to young kids and the greater dcu.

plus batman may not need robin now but in the 40s,50s and 60s he did or he may not be were he is today.

----------


## Carabas

If Robin was all that important his name wouldstill be Dick Grayson.

The concept of Robin is important, the actual character in the Robin suit far less so. You can tell by how many of them there are.

----------


## WonderNight

the only reason why there are so many robins is because dick left the role behide so DC milked it to dead. now DC has more robins (and batgirls) then they know what to do with.

----------


## Carabas

> the only reason why there are so many robins is because dick left the role behide so DC milked it to dead. now DC has more robins (and batgirls) then they know what to do with.


The only reason there are so many Robins is because it's not important who Robin is.

Jason Todd became Robin in 1983 (Batman #366); Dick became Nightwing in 1984, more than half a year later (Tales of the Teen Titans #44).

Dick Grayon at the time made DC a lot more money as a Titans leader than as a Batman sidekick.

----------


## Godlike13

I do wonder, if Nightwing didn't work out would we have so many Robins.

----------


## Assam

> I do wonder, if Nightwing didn't work out would we have so many Robins.


Honestly? I think the only one who wouldn't still be around is Tim. 

Jason was created before Dick became Nightwing. Say people didn't like Nightwing and they wanted Dick back as Robin, Death in the Family would have happened (Possibly without the vote) to kill off Jason to make room for Dick. With him dead, he'd still be set to come back as Red Hood years later. With no Tim, Dick would probably get a _Robin_ book, but _not_ before Steph made her first appearance in a Detective Comics story. Dixon would still like the character, he'd still use her in _Robin_, and while she'd probably never develop a romance with Dick because his Bat-Romance is with Babs, most of her history would probably still play out the same way till today. And years down the road, I think Damian would still exist because Morrison basically had free reign with his run. He would have become Robin during DickBats, and probably would have gotten a new identity with the Nu52. 

Obviously this is all just speculation, but yeah, even if Nightwing hadn't taken off, the only one of the main 5 I see not existing would be Tim...which would suck for me and a lot of other 90's kids, but I'm sure would make a lot of you happy.

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly? I think the only one who wouldn't still be around is Tim. 
> 
> Jason was created before Dick became Nightwing. Say people didn't like Nightwing and they wanted Dick back as Robin, Death in the Family would have happened (Possibly without the vote) to kill off Jason to make room for Dick. With him dead, he'd still be set to come back as Red Hood years later. With no Tim, Dick would probably get a _Robin_ book, but _not_ before Steph made her first appearance in a Detective Comics story. Dixon would still like the character, he'd still use her in _Robin_, and while she'd probably never develop a romance with Dick because his Bat-Romance is with Babs, most of her history would probably still play out the same way till today. And years down the road, I think Damian would still exist because Morrison basically had free reign with his run. He would have become Robin during DickBats, and probably would have gotten a new identity with the Nu52. 
> 
> Obviously this is all just speculation, but yeah, even if Nightwing hadn't taken off, the only one of the main 5 I see not existing would be Tim...which would suck for me and a lot of other 90's kids, but I'm sure would make a lot of you happy.


I don't see Dick back as Robin coming out of _Death in the Family_. Part of the impetus of that story was doing away with Robin in the first place.

----------


## Assam

> I don't see Dick back as Robin coming out of _Death in the Family_. Part of the impetus of that story was doing away with Robin in the first place.


So if Nightwing was unpopular, and you don't think he'd go back to Robin, what do you think would happen with Dick?

----------


## Frontier

> So if Nightwing was unpopular, and you don't think he'd go back to Robin, what do you think would happen with Dick?


Well, I didn't say that I thought Dick would never go back to being Robin, just not in that specific storyline  :Smile: .

I guess he could pull a Hank Pym and just be "Dick Grayson," which, given the fondness for the_ Grayson_ series might have actually worked out...

----------


## DurararaFTW

You can do Batman stories without Gordon or Alfred. They are not mandatory. Batman needs a person to interact with in his investigation, sure. It can be Robin, Lucius, Oracle, Batgirl, Renee Montoya, Harvey Bullock, ect. Nothing puts Gordon, let alone Alfred, on a higher pedestal.

----------


## Grim Ghost

Here is mine.  DC no longer believes that Batman has enough personality or interest on his own to carry a title.  It's always Batman and sidekicks, Batman and partners, Batman and teams.  This goes FAR beyond just a Robin.  And as much as I prefer a solo Batman I am starting to think they are right.  Batman may not have enough personality to carry his own title at this point.  Bruce Wayne certainly has very little personality and seems to barely exist.  It certainly wasn't always this way and I find it kind of sad that it has come to this point.

The irony here is that Batman is the most popular character DC has, yet he has very little actual character left to him at this point.  It is all about how other characters see Batman, how he reflects off of them and what they think about him now.  The real show is the supporting characters at this point in every Bat book.

----------


## rev516

I think it's because DC refuses to have Bruce be happy. And when he is, it's for five minutes before ANOTHER tragedy happens.

A brighter and optimistic Bruce Wayne would definitely be able to carry a title with himself alone.

----------


## The Kid

> You can do Batman stories without Gordon or Alfred. They are not mandatory. Batman needs a person to interact with in his investigation, sure. It can be Robin, Lucius, Oracle, Batgirl, Renee Montoya, Harvey Bullock, ect. Nothing puts Gordon, let alone Alfred, on a higher pedestal.


You can do Batman stories without any  characters if you want. Gordon and Alfred play very unique roles in the mythos however. I could see one replacing Gordon but Alfred at this point is as important of a supporting member 




> Here is mine.  DC no longer believes that Batman has enough personality or interest on his own to carry a title.  It's always Batman and sidekicks, Batman and partners, Batman and teams.  This goes FAR beyond just a Robin.  And as much as I prefer a solo Batman I am starting to think they are right.  Batman may not have enough personality to carry his own title at this point.  Bruce Wayne certainly has very little personality and seems to barely exist.  It certainly wasn't always this way and I find it kind of sad that it has come to this point.
> 
> The irony here is that Batman is the most popular character DC has, yet he has very little actual character left to him at this point.  It is all about how other characters see Batman, how he reflects off of them and what they think about him now.  The real show is the supporting characters at this point in every Bat book.


Tbh I pretty much completely disagree with that. I find most of the supporting characters to be pretty bland and interchangeable with a few exceptions. Heck, Snyder's run was pretty empty of the Batfamily and it was consistently the best selling book for the entirety of the New 52. More than any of the books featuring the rest of the family (Detective Comics, Batman and Robin, etc..) So Bruce still holds a title better than any other character. Batman's personality is basically driven, serious, and dark hero and it still sells like crazy. As much as people want Bruce to be a lighter hero, the numbers don't lie. That personality kills it in the comics and the films

I don't think it's a surprise that the most popular Batman film adaptations pretty much get rid of all sidekicks and just play with Bruce and his villains

----------


## sakuyamons

> Here is mine.  DC no longer believes that Batman has enough personality or interest on his own to carry a title.  It's always Batman and sidekicks, Batman and partners, Batman and teams.  This goes FAR beyond just a Robin.  And as much as I prefer a solo Batman I am starting to think they are right.  Batman may not have enough personality to carry his own title at this point.  Bruce Wayne certainly has very little personality and seems to barely exist.  It certainly wasn't always this way and I find it kind of sad that it has come to this point.
> 
> The irony here is that Batman is the most popular character DC has, yet he has very little actual character left to him at this point.  It is all about how other characters see Batman, how he reflects off of them and what they think about him now.  The real show is the supporting characters at this point in every Bat book.


Batman has two solo books (that I don't read) so I think DC knows he sells well.

----------


## The Kid

> Batman has two solo books (that I don't read) so I think DC knows he sells well.


They are also the two of best selling DC books on a monthly basis. In April, Batman was #1 and All-Star at #3 and April was an exception in that Flash was the 2nd best... because of a crossover with Batman

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yeah, Jim Gordon has a unique role. It's not the same when somebody takes his place as Police Commissioner, because his relationship with Batman is special.

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## Carabas

> So if Nightwing was unpopular, and you don't think he'd go back to Robin, what do you think would happen with Dick?


Same thing that happened to the other unpopular Robin Jason Todd: gone and largely forgotten until somebody brought him back 20-ish years later.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Same thing that happened to the other unpopular Robin Jason Todd: gone and largely forgotten until somebody brought him back 20-ish years later.


Nope, New Teen Titans best years were when he was Robin, even if Nightwing was rejected than franchise survived on Wolfman until 92-94 Total Chaos.

----------


## Carabas

> Nope, New Teen Titans best years were when he was Robin, even if Nightwing was rejected than franchise survived on Wolfman until 92-94 Total Chaos.


The question was what if Nightwing was massively unpopular, and they did NOT revert back to Robin for whatever reason.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

He was still under Wolfman control and as shown with Grayson he can survive without an identity. Not to mention Jason Todd started in the 80's and never made it out of the 80's while Dick was around sine 1940. It would be unimaginable that they would let him just fade into obscurity.

----------


## Buried Alien

> I don't see Dick back as Robin coming out of _Death in the Family_. Part of the impetus of that story was doing away with Robin in the first place.





> So if Nightwing was unpopular, and you don't think he'd go back to Robin, what do you think would happen with Dick?


Some of the marketing/hype for A LONELY PLACE OF DYING in 1989 did initially lead readers to think that perhaps Dick would return to being Robin at that point.   :Smile: 




Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

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## phantom1592

> Yeah, Jim Gordon has a unique role. It's not the same when somebody takes his place as Police Commissioner, because his relationship with Batman is special.
> 
> Attachment 49783
> 
> Attachment 49784
> 
> Attachment 49785


I'm not sure if this sarcasm or not... 

Honestly, I LIKE Jim Gordon... but I don't see him as 'unique'. There was a time when he retired and someone else was Commissioner... Any police with a cooperating eye would fill that spot just the same. 

If Renee Montoya from the animated series became Commissioner I could see those panels playing out exactly the same way. 


Alfred?? I don't like how they use him lately... They can't decide between hired help and father figure and it REALLY doesn't work on BOTH levels. Batman at his core is a man who lost his parents and became dark and intense... he raised Robin so he Wouldn't be like he turned out... If Alfred was there in the beginning and raising him as it claims now... What the heck happened?? 

It's one of the worst things about 'Gotham'... I LOVE the guy playing Alfred... but he's personally creating Batman intentionally and Bruce isn't going to be a self-made man anymore... The story falls apart.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'm not sure if this sarcasm or not... 
> 
> Honestly, I LIKE Jim Gordon... but I don't see him as 'unique'. There was a time when he retired and someone else was Commissioner... Any police with a cooperating eye would fill that spot just the same. 
> 
> If Renee Montoya from the animated series became Commissioner I could see those panels playing out exactly the same way. 
> 
> 
> Alfred?? I don't like how they use him lately... They can't decide between hired help and father figure and it REALLY doesn't work on BOTH levels. Batman at his core is a man who lost his parents and became dark and intense... he raised Robin so he Wouldn't be like he turned out... If Alfred was there in the beginning and raising him as it claims now... What the heck happened?? 
> 
> It's one of the worst things about 'Gotham'... I LOVE the guy playing Alfred... but he's personally creating Batman intentionally and Bruce isn't going to be a self-made man anymore... The story falls apart.


Jim was mad at Bruce. It was after AzBats and DickBats. They are close friends so Jim felt betrayed. 
Their relationship is unique, because you don't see Bruce acts this way with somebody else. 

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## the illustrious mr. kenway

I've been curious about Anarky having a period where he served as Robin so if he were to make it to the big screen i'd make him a former robin that struck out on his own.

----------


## Aioros22

> He was still under Wolfman control and as shown with Grayson he can survive without an identity. Not to mention Jason Todd started in the 80's and never made it out of the 80's while Dick was around sine 1940.


Grayson is one comic run and "Agent 37" is basically an idenity on itself. They also revert him back to Nigthwing. 

Wolfman`s Dick Grayson without any identity whatsoever was too brief to be accountable. 




> It would be unimaginable that they would let him just fade into obscurity.


Yeah, because he was that popular. If he wasn`t popular, it wouldn`t be.

----------


## Assam

> I've been curious about Anarky having a period where he served as Robin so if he were to make it to the big screen i'd make him a former robin that struck out on his own.


Lonnie was never actually Robin. Alan Grant wanted him to eventually become Robin, but then Tim Drake happened.

----------


## Mutant God

I might like the idea of Gordon Sr. being Mayor of Gotham, cleaning up Gotham from the political standpoint while a new Commissioner make things harder for Batman and other vigilantes.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Lonnie was never actually Robin. Alan Grant wanted him to eventually become Robin, but then Tim Drake happened.


I know I just thought it be cool if he was.

----------


## phantom1592

> Jim was mad at Bruce. It was after AzBats and DickBats. They are close friends so Jim felt betrayed. 
> Their relationship is unique, because you don't see Bruce acts this way with somebody else.


It depends on the writer really. They really wanted to push that Gordon and him had a special relationship during that No Man's Land stuff. However, that's just not really so... as they pointed out there, Batman is a TERRIBLE Friend. Asking about Jim's home life and telling him he's important doesn't really mean much. I've seen the same conversations with Superman, Hal, Ollie, etc... Not to mention Dick, Tim, Barbara and the others... but with Gordon he's always keeping that 'Legend' alive. He's still using the scary voice and sticking to shadows... He sneaks in the office, makes demands (or just helps himself) to files and then leaves when his back's turned... Batman knows if they're alone or being watched (because he's BATMAN...) yet never really drops the act or lowers his guard like he does with the Robins and Alfred. 

It's fun and interesting to see Batman be awesome... but that's not 'friend' behavior. I love that Jim calls him on it those pages too... and really 'I don't like saying goodbye' is a painfully stupid excuse. If Gordon became Mayor and Bullock or Montoya became Commissioner... he'd act the same way toward them. Dark, spooky, all-knowing... 'I got this, stay out of my way'. The problem is that it's a relationship that's been around for 70+ years... so they really can't upset it too much. 

Now... I remember the 'Officer Down' story had some good moments in there after Gordon was Shot and dying in a hospital bed... THAT showed how Batman felt about him pretty well I thought... though it's been a LONG time since I read it.

----------


## sakuyamons

My other controversial opinion (that changes a lot depending of what I see) is that...Harley Quinn ain't that bad, she's overexposed, yes, but I don't think she deserves the hate imo. I hate that DC is trying to turn her into their Deadpool though.

----------


## Frontier

> My other controversial opinion (that changes a lot depending of what I see) is that...Harley Quinn ain't that bad, she's overexposed, yes, but I don't think she deserves the hate imo. I hate that DC is trying to turn her into their Deadpool though.


I don't think you should feel self-conscious about liking or not hating on a popular character, even if they are really overexposed  :Smile: . 

And that's my controversial opinion of the day  :Wink: .

----------


## pansy

> My other controversial opinion (that changes a lot depending of what I see) is that...Harley Quinn ain't that bad, she's overexposed, yes, but I don't think she deserves the hate imo. I hate that DC is trying to turn her into their Deadpool though.


She's *really* a mental patient. More ironically for her to be by your side.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't think you should feel self-conscious about liking or not hating on a popular character, even if they are really overexposed . 
> 
> And that's my controversial opinion of the day .


How could you have such an outlandish opinion?  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

I don't make it a secret that I like a big Batfam. That said, I obviously have issues with characters I view as lesser, or I have some other problem with. 

So here's an opinion: Duke, Harper, and Claire should disappear and never be seen again, BUT, I'd love for Onyx and Orpheus to make a come back. Those two had so much potential, and they both seriously got screwed over. ( With Steph and Leslie's treatment in War Games being so GOD AWFUL, people tend to forget that Gavin also died) I wouldn't even care if they were just other Gotham heroes who only occasionally hung with certain BatFam members. It'd just be great to have them back.

----------


## Carabas

I think you do not have an issue with lesser characters, you have an issue with newer characters, with oddly gives you something in common with DC editorial.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think you do not have an issue with lesser characters, you have an issue with newer characters, with oddly gives you something in common with DC editorial.


I wouldn't say that. I've seen him express liking for new characters like Jessica Cruz and Jackson Hyde. And some of those characters he likes where new at some point.

----------


## Assam

> I think you do not have an issue with lesser characters, you have an issue with newer characters, with oddly gives you something in common with DC editorial.


Not in the slightest. Don't go making assumptions. I really don't think Duke or Claire are good characters (I like Harper actually, but want her gone for other reasons). It has nothing to do with them being _new._ There are plenty of new characters I really, really like. Over in the GL franchise, Jessica Cruz is by far my favorite Lantern, Clayface, basically an entirely new version of Basil, has become one of my favorite Batfam members, I absolutely love Emiko Queen, moreso that Oliver, Mia, or by a bit, Connor, The Justice League of China are all characters I adore (Save Bat-Man) to the point they have one of my favorite Rebirth books, The Others from the Aquaman franchise were some of the best new characters of the Nu52 (My favorite being Prisoner of War), Jon Kent is an adorable ball of adorableness, Hell, even at Marvel, Kamala Khan is just shy of being my favorite character they have (And to a lesser degree, I prefer most of Marvel's new legacy heroes over their older ones). 

So long as a character is good, I have no problem with them. 

Don't. Compare me. To DC f**king Editorial.

----------


## Aahz

> Don't go making assumptions. I really don't think Duke or Claire are good characters (I like Harper actually, but want her gone for other reasons).


the thing with clair is that she is way to powerfull for the Batfamily, and if you really want a character like her in a story, why not just bring in Supergirl as a guest character.

----------


## Frontier

> the thing with clair is that she is way to powerfull for the Batfamily, and if you really want a character like her in a story, why not just bring in Supergirl as a guest character.


Probably because King wants to do stuff with Claire that he could never do with the actual Supergirl.

----------


## Mutant God

The Court of Owls makes me think of Owlman and the Crime Syndicate, I think they could change name like to Court of Cats (Cats - Egypt - Pyramids - Pyramid on Money - Economy - Government - Illuminati) or The Faceless Society (their mascot/icon could be a faceless mannequin, also could connect with The Question)

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Tim reminds me of Cypher from All-New X-Factor for some reason.

----------


## Vinsanity

I hate the notion that Jason has to be at odds with every single Robin. If anything they should be at odds with Batman considering all the shit he has pulled. 
- Steph is a boring character and Tim is better off dead at the moment. I love Tim but they need to find a place for him. 
- I used to dislike Barbara and Dick together but I'm getting okay with it. Bring back Bette and Dick though. :J

----------


## Godlike13

Im not actually a fan of the notion that every character has to get along. Everybody getting along with everybody is boring. Not everybody likes everybody, and that's okay. I kind of wish there were more rilveries and friction between some characters, other than just with Damian.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Im not actually a fan of the notion that every character has to get along. Everybody getting along with everybody is boring. Not everybody likes everybody, and that's okay. I kind of wish there were more rilveries and friction between some characters, other than just with Damian.


I agree on that part but in terms of Jason v. Dick. I don't see it anymore. It just doesn't make sense in Rebirth/New 52 because Jason isn't some evil, crazy guy anymore. 

Like basically don't try to make force conflict for the sake of it. Stuff like Guy v. Bruce, Green Arrow v. Hawkman. That stuff works.

----------


## daBronzeBomma

Batman should cover every part of his body, including his lower face.

Hell, Silver St. Cloud was able to deduce that Bruce was Batman bt studying Batman's exposed mouth/chin.  Its a liability.

Dont get started on Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman and Nightwing (or heaven help me, Superman) when it comes to effective disguises.  Because, y'know, comics.

But Bats has a real easy fix.  Look no further than than the face of Batman Beyond:



Now, maybe that is a bridge too far to put on the main Batman uniform.  

Ok, then use the Batman look from Smallville Season 11:



Cover Bats mouth/chin with the same grey material as his chest.  No exposed skin.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Batman should cover every part of his body, including his lower face.
> 
> Hell, Silver St. Cloud was able to deduce that Bruce was Batman bt studying Batman's exposed mouth/chin.  Its a liability.


Silver St. Cloud is a legend. More detective than several heroes.

----------


## phantom1592

I enjoyed in NML when Helena in a classic cowl took a face full of spray paint staining her mouth and chin and showing how problematic that mask is. Same with Sunburn or even more mundane burning building... that would leave some ridiculously unnecessary tan lines. 

For many characters not that big a deal, but the billionaire, playboy, most eligible bachelor who's always on the cover of some tabloids?? Yeah, That was a man that ALWAYS should have protected his face. I was thinking that back when Azbats took over. Didn't like most the costume, but that original mask? That made too much sense....

----------


## nightbird

> Batman should cover every part of his body, including his lower face.
> 
> Hell, Silver St. Cloud was able to deduce that Bruce was Batman bt studying Batman's exposed mouth/chin.  Its a liability.
> 
> Dont get started on Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman and Nightwing (or heaven help me, Superman) when it comes to effective disguises.  Because, y'know, comics.
> 
> But Bats has a real easy fix.  Look no further than than the face of Batman Beyond:
> 
> 
> ...


...Batman Beyond has no mask, let's admit, it's freakin' face paint lol. And it gives just the same amount of exposure as Batman's cowl or domino mask.

----------


## Jcady59

Here some of my controversial opinions i wanted to share.

I think Affleck has the potential to be the best Batman/Bruce in live action if given the right material to work with. As of now however i feel Keaton is still the best so far.

Arkham origins isn't that bad of a game. 

I like The Batman and its version of the Joker.

My most controversial however is that i prefer Zero Year to Year One(yeah i said it).

----------


## oasis1313

> Silver St. Cloud is a legend. More detective than several heroes.


I loved Silver St Cloud.  They should bring her back and actually have a successful, long running relationship with Bruce.  And if not Bruce, I'd LOVE to see Dick with a smart, beautiful, classy woman like Silver.

----------


## Citizen Kane

Here's one to rile all of you up.

Jason Todd should have stayed dead, and Damian Wayne should have ended up becoming the Red Hood.


I don't always speak for the people...

----------


## Jcady59

> Here's one to rile all of you up.
> 
> Jason Todd should have stayed dead, and Damian Wayne should have ended up becoming the Red Hood.
> 
> 
> I don't always speak for the people...


While i don't think he should of stayed dead, I do think he should have remained a villain or semi-villain like . I kinda liked him as Dick's evil counterpart and the idea behind that was sound, someone with knowledge passed on to him by Batman goes rogue is an interesting premise for stories.

----------


## phantom1592

> Here's one to rile all of you up.
> 
> Jason Todd should have stayed dead, and Damian Wayne should have ended up becoming the Red Hood.
> 
> 
> I don't always speak for the people...


I could get behind that. I hated seeing Jason come back. I hate Damian... the idea of him going rogue seems inevitable to me. That works pretty well.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> You can do Batman stories without any  characters if you want. Gordon and Alfred play very unique roles in the mythos however. I could see one replacing Gordon but Alfred at this point is as important of a supporting member


You do need characters to write stories, particularly detective stories that take place in the city. Just not neccesarily a butler or police commissioner. Though if I had to  pick Gordon comes before Alfred. Batman needs some understanding with some representative of the police department to operate with the ideology that he does. Alfred not existing is fine. And Batman was indeed fine before Alfred existed. Unique roles? Sure but Dick, Damian, Superman, Huntress and Lesliee Thompson all have 'unique'  roles. Are any of them mandatory? No.

----------


## Frontier

> You do need characters to write stories, particularly detective stories that take place in the city. Just not neccesarily a butler or police commissioner. Though if I had to  pick Gordon comes before Alfred. Batman needs some understanding with some representative of the police department to operate with the ideology that he does. Alfred not existing is fine. And Batman was indeed fine before Alfred existed. Unique roles? Sure but Dick, Damian, Superman, Huntress and Lesliee Thompson all have 'unique'  roles. Are any of them mandatory? No.


And you need someone to shine the Bat-Signal and for Batman to disappear on in a recurring basis  :Wink: .

----------


## Carabas

> And you need someone to shine the Bat-Signal...


The GCPD has/had somebody whose job is specifically just that. Her name is Stacy. Because it would be illegal for a cop to turn it on.

----------


## Aioros22

> Here's one to rile all of you up.
> 
> Jason Todd should have stayed dead, and Damian Wayne should have ended up becoming the Red Hood.
> 
> 
> I don't always speak for the people...


You`re some years behind to rile all of us with that one  :Cool:  I get those who prefer him to be Dick`s evil twin, I`m just glad he`s an actual character that doesn`t depend on such a low bar premise.

----------


## Frontier

> The GCPD has/had somebody whose job is specifically just that. Her name is Stacy. Because it would be illegal for a cop to turn it on.


I know, but it's still more commonly seen as Gordon's job  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> You`re some years behind to rile all of us with that one  I get those who prefer him to be Dick`s evil twin, I`m just glad he`s an actual character that doesn`t depend on such a low bar premise.


Yeah, for the longest time, I was in the camp that wished he'd stayed dead. These days though, HUZZAH, Rebirth finally made Jason into a character worth telling stories about; much preferable to anything else done with him since his resurrection. 

As for Damian, I'm actually starting to side with the Morrison lovers that think he should have stayed dead. It _was_ the end of his arc, and while that doesn't mean it had to be the end of his story, I'm not entirely convinced DC knows what the next step for the kid is if he can't stop being Robin (He's too marketable) and can't ever grow up (He'd either be a manchild or he'd lose all his unique traits.) Yeah, they know how to give him character arcs like in the first arc of TT or recently in Nightwing, but I'd bet what we just saw in Lazarus Contract isn't going to be the last time we see a writer set the character back to square one, and force him to learn things he already knows.

----------


## Batarang

Give all the brats to Joker to play and kill. HAhaAhaHAhaHaHAHa !!!!!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

> The GCPD has/had somebody whose job is specifically just that. Her name is Stacy. Because it would be illegal for a cop to turn it on.


Best Gotham income ever but the downside is ludricious. 

Gordon - "You virtually just needed to switch it on. You had one job!"

----------


## Bionicman

> The GCPD has/had somebody whose job is specifically just that. Her name is Stacy. Because it would be illegal for a cop to turn it on.


To quote TVTropes: "...though some [comics] have gotten it wrong while trying to be clever (no, bringing in a bureaucrat whose only job is to turn on the Bat-Signal doesn't make it okay because the bureaucrat is acting as an agent of the police which makes Batman an agent of the police)."

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah, for the longest time, I was in the camp that wished he'd stayed dead. These days though, HUZZAH, Rebirth finally made Jason into a character worth telling stories about; much preferable to anything else done with him since his resurrection. 
> 
> As for Damian, I'm actually starting to side with the Morrison lovers that think he should have stayed dead. It _was_ the end of his arc, and while that doesn't mean it had to be the end of his story, I'm not entirely convinced DC knows what the next step for the kid is if he can't stop being Robin (He's too marketable) and can't ever grow up (He'd either be a manchild or he'd lose all his unique traits.) Yeah, they know how to give him character arcs like in the first arc of TT or recently in Nightwing, but I'd bet what we just saw in Lazarus Contract isn't going to be the last time we see a writer set the character back to square one, and force him to learn things he already knows.


This applies perfectly to Cass, Damian didn't rediscover his mother or best friend like Cass. They're not retreading the old ground with Damian, what is happening is what we call mileage in characterization or inconsistency exagerrated by the cross over/event effect of the storyline

----------


## Assam

> This applies perfectly to Cass, Damian didn't rediscover his mother or best friend like Cass. They're not retreading the old ground with Damian, what is happening is what we call mileage in characterization or inconsistency exagerrated by the cross over/event effect of the storyline


Actually it doesn't. The main difference is that Damian's story wasn't interrupted and restarted from the beginning, because his continuity was mostly unaffected by the reboot. Much like with Steph, certain story beats unfortunately needed to be repeated to get the characters back to the way people loved them. (Although with Steph, the results are clearly much more divisive.) Yes, they did another Cass finds out Shiva is her mom conflict, but the key themes and Cass's character arc are completely different from the ones presented Pre-Flashpoint. Same result, different journey, and as I said, something that needed to be done.  

With Damian, of course this was out of character behavior in the crossover, and was only as bad as it was because of the lingering effects. I've been reading Teen Titans and Super Sons; I know this isn't how he is now. I never said I was positive, but I have a feeling this isn't the last time writers are going to ignore Damian's character development.

----------


## Selina

I may have liked damien wayne better if his mother was selina and not talia see batman the brave and the bold for more details. I like talia more than damien wayne

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

Tom King's run, at least what I've read of it so far up to Rooftops, has already proven to be better than Scott Snyder's New 52 Batman. Where Snyder's run felt very formulaic, wordy, and boring after everything new grant morrison introduced to the character, King's Batman feels like more of a breath of fresh air. Weird instances of dialogue aside (not a fan of bat and cat), I think Tom King is taking the character to more new and interesting places.

Tynion's detective comics is so bland, at least going off of Rise of the Batmen. I like that he tried to salvage Tim Drake, but all of his characters speak in the same voice. There's just something very off about how he writes everyone, no one really speaks right but I can't place my finger on it.

Can we please get past Kevin Conroy? I love his work in the DCAU, Mask of the Phantasm especially, but he phones in every single performance nowadays and doesn't sound intimidating in the slightest. Bring back Bruce Greenwood, Jeremy Sisto, Anthony Ruivar, and Troy Baker back for more chances to reprise the role. I'm so sick of hearing Conroy's stilted and awkward delivery in everything he pops up in.

Troy Baker does a better Joker than Mark Hamill currently. I love Mark, I truly do, but he should have retired the role after Arkham City. He sounds way too old to be convincing now. There's plenty of actors I'd love to hear reprise, like John Dimaggio, Michael Emerson, and Richard Epcar.

Jason Todd only works as a villain. Judd Winick and Grant Morrison were the only writers to get that right after he returned.

Ben Affleck could be a wonderful Batman, but going off of what he's had to work with, he's not so far. I still love Christian Bale and Michael Keaton, but I can't decide which one I like more due to Bale being a better Bruce Wayne, and Keaton a better Batman.

Arkham Knight is a horrible, horrible game, at least compared to the other arkham games.

Damian should have stayed dead after Morrison killed him off.

Gotham Central is the tv series we should have gotten.

----------


## Agent Z

Huntress, Cass and Steph are the most noble and heroic of the Batfamily.

Bruce should have fired Dick after he almost beat the Joker to death. It would only be fair since he did the same to Helena after she tried to kill Promtheus but relented.

I don't like Steph's current direction but not because she's against Batman. Rather I dislike it because she'll be proven wrong in the most heavy handed way just like anyone who criticizes superheroes in universe.

----------


## Baseman

> Huntress, Cass and Steph are the most noble and heroic of the Batfamily.
> 
> Bruce should have fired Dick after he almost beat the Joker to death. It would only be fair since he did the same to Helena after she tried to kill Promtheus but relented.
> 
> I don't like Steph's current direction but not because she's against Batman. Rather I dislike it because she'll be proven wrong in the most heavy handed way just like anyone who criticizes superheroes in universe.


Well its not like she has much of a point to begin with.

----------


## Caivu

> I like that he tried to salvage Tim Drake, *but all of his characters speak in the same voice. There's just something very off about how he writes everyone, no one really speaks right but I can't place my finger on it.*


I really wish you could give some examples of what you mean, because otherwise that's simply untrue. Cass sounds like everyone else? Clayface does? JPV? Kate? Are you sure?

----------


## Aioros22

Really comfortable that some of my favorite characters have moved past one note characterizatons and gotten even more popular out of it. Not sure I`d even bother asking for examples when it`s unanimaously clear that some directions hit a Wall to serve best other characters interests. 

*wistles*

----------


## phantom1592

> Bruce should have fired Dick after he almost beat the Joker to death. It would only be fair since he did the same to Helena after she tried to kill Promtheus but relented.
> 
> .


Fired him from what?? Nightwing was always about Dick being independent.... I suppose he could have ostracized him (again) but Dick's not really an 'employee' so much as he's 'family'.

----------


## Alycat

> I may have liked damien wayne better if his mother was selina and not talia see batman the brave and the bold for more details. I like talia more than damien wayne


But he wouldn't be Damian anymore would he?

Not sure if this is controversial or not, but I don't like Catwoman. Or at least I don't like her relationship with Batman anymore. I wish it would go away.

Also it annoys me that Bat female villains are mostly anti heroes now. Wish they'd go back to being villians or not shown in some positive light as much.

----------


## FLGibsonIII

Damian is at his best when he is written like a POS, like when Morrison's run started.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Bruce should have fired Dick after he almost beat the Joker to death. It would only be fair since he did the same to Helena after she tried to kill Promtheus but relented.


Huntress wasn't going to relent, she was 100% going to kill him while he was defenseless and already beaten. She only stopped when Batman caught her in the act and made it super awkward. He's hardly the only League member who wouldn't want her around after that either.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Wasn't Dick beating the joker to death a dream because Jason's death? He was Nightwing anyway so he couldn't get fired.
More costumed heroes in Gotham should become credible citizens with degrees or companies other than Wayne Enterprises.

----------


## Godlike13

No its wasnt a dream. He lost his shit. Though Batman couldn't have fired him even if he wanted to, and its not like it would a have served a point as no one was more upset at Dick then he was at himself.

----------


## phantom1592

> Wasn't Dick beating the joker to death a dream because Jason's death? He was Nightwing anyway so he couldn't get fired.
> More costumed heroes in Gotham should become credible citizens with degrees or companies other than Wayne Enterprises.


If it was the Joker's last laugh storyline, it was because it had appeared that Joker had killed Tim, who Dick was pretty fond of. And completely lost it as 2 Robins murdered were 2 too many.

He takes it a bit personally when Robins are killed  :Wink:

----------


## Godlike13

He was also dating Oracle at the time. His state of mind was understandable, and purposeful as Joker wanted him to kill him.

----------


## Agent Z

> Fired him from what?? Nightwing was always about Dick being independent.... I suppose he could have ostracized him (again) but Dick's not really an 'employee' so much as he's 'family'.


Even then the lack of consequences is rather glaring.

----------


## Agent Z

> Huntress wasn't going to relent, she was 100% going to kill him while he was defenseless and already beaten. She only stopped when Batman caught her in the act and made it super awkward. He's hardly the only League member who wouldn't want her around after that either.


If that's the case, Bruce sure is lucky none of the other Leaguers were there when he tried to kill the Joker for killing Tommy Elliot.

Also, I think Diana might have had a different opinion given she didn't condemn Bruce for trying to kill Alexander Luthor.

----------


## phantom1592

To quote Sideshow Bob....  "I was convicted of a crime I didn't even commit! ATTEMPTED murder... Nobody gets the Nobel prize for ATTEMPTED Chemistry!!!"


Honestly that was such a fuzzy area... because the times that the dynamic duo have 'almost' beat someone to death must be STAGGERING. Just the bare concept of pounding people till they stop moving... but are still breathing isn't very realistic. Not even counting all the explosions and crashes that they've caused... often with the Joker inside them... that consequences for something that 'almost' happened would be... Annoying at best, Hypocritical at worst. 

Even with Joker's heart stopping, at the end of the day he was still alive and kicking, so it'll always come down to 'no harm, no foul'.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Actually it doesn't. The main difference is that Damian's story wasn't interrupted and restarted from the beginning, because his continuity was mostly unaffected by the reboot. Much like with Steph, certain story beats unfortunately needed to be repeated to get the characters back to the way people loved them. (Although with Steph, the results are clearly much more divisive.) Yes, they did another Cass finds out Shiva is her mom conflict, but the key themes and Cass's character arc are completely different from the ones presented Pre-Flashpoint. Same result, different journey, and as I said, something that needed to be done.  
> 
> With Damian, of course this was out of character behavior in the crossover, and was only as bad as it was because of the lingering effects. I've been reading Teen Titans and Super Sons; I know this isn't how he is now. I never said I was positive, but I have a feeling this isn't the last time writers are going to ignore Damian's character development.


Cass was off track ever since she found out Shiva was her mom back in her first book, the character was a train wreck after that. Damian post death didn't go off the rails.

What we saw here applies to every character, no character will remain consistent over time and in this case they couldn't focus on him fully due to a large cast so they resorted to a more unorthodox characterization.

----------


## nightbird

> Even then the lack of consequences is rather glaring.


Consequences for what? Killing villain psycho? Yeah, no.

----------


## Agent Z

> Consequences for what? Killing villain psycho? Yeah, no.


If Bruce wasn't so anal about the no killing rule, I'd have let it slide.

----------


## Godlike13

There was consequences, emotional ones. Joker manipulated Dick into almost killing him. What were you looking for, Bruce to bring down the hammer on a guy that fell into a trap and was already punishing himself, or have him try to take away something he has no authority to take away. Let's not pretend these two situations or circumstances were equal.

----------


## Agent Z

> There was consequences, emotional ones. Joker manipulated Dick into almost killing him.


And nothing was made of it. That's not consequences.






> What were you looking for, Bruce to bring down the hammer on a guy that fell into a trap and was already punishing himself, or have Batman try to take away something he has no authority to take away.


Given the guy has never had a problem getting on his high horse for people who have killed for more justified reasons, I don't know, for him to act with some consistency? Or is DIck immune from Bruce's wrath because he's his son?

----------


## nightbird

> If Bruce wasn't so anal about the no killing rule, I'd have let it slide.


And? He doesn't kill. Not in cold blood. He doesn't go after villains in attempt to kill them either.. 
He was emotionally compromised at that moment. And Dick was the best punisher for himself. End of story. His heart still on the right place. 
And Bruce can be "anal" about a lot of stuff, not like he is right about all of them (and he is the last person to judge almost any member of his family. Especially Robins).

----------


## Agent Z

> And? He doesn't kill. Not in cold blood. He doesn't go after villains in attempt to kill them either..









> And Bruce can be "anal" about a lot of stuff, not like he is right about all of them (and he is the last person to judge almost any member of his family. Especially Robins).


Yeah, kind of my point.

----------


## darkseidpwns

The equivalency doesn't hold to even begin with, Dick ALMOST killed an active psychopath in a fit of rage and regretted it. Huntress tries to kill a harmless cripple(who another hero took down when he was actually dangerous) in cold blood and gets caught, I've seen villains with more honor than Huntress.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah, kind of my point.


Didn't kill Darkseid either so wrong again, you can even see the shoulder wound, look at your own picture.

----------


## Agent Z

> The equivalency doesn't hold to even begin with, Dick ALMOST killed an active psychopath in a fit of rage and regretted it. Huntress tries to kill a harmless cripple(who another hero took down when he was actually dangerous) in cold blood and gets caught, I've seen villains with more honor than Huntress.


Joker was unarmed and was merely taunting Dick. 

That's not even getting into the times Bruce needed to be talked down from killing someone.

Given your idea of an "honorable" villain is Deathstroke, yeah not going to put much stock in that comment.

----------


## Agent Z

> Didn't kill Darkseid either so wrong again, you can even see the shoulder wound, look at your own picture.


1) Yes it did.

2) Even if it didn't, what do you think the intent of shooting somebody is?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 1) Yes it did.
> 
> 2) Even if it didn't, what do you think the intent of shooting somebody is?


No it didn't, go read the story for Christ's sake, he only intended to injure him so that DS would abandon TURPIN'S body.
OHO you cant shoot somebody without killing them? this is news to me, you clearly see DS getting a shoulder wound. The story makes Batman's intentions clear, people can be shot non letahlly, 1+1+1=3, its that simple.

----------


## Batarang

> 1) Yes it did.
> 
> 2) Even if it didn't, what do you think the intent of shooting somebody is?


I can't agree more. 

And this is why i kind of lost my interest to Batman... He's such a hypocrite, he's like ''i don't kill, i don't use guns'' and then this... And This is not the only example. He killed a darkside minion with a gun in Comic Odyssey adventure. He was like '' what else i could do, i was out matched so i improvised''  yeah, you improvised to be an hypocrite for sure Batman. And a friend of mine showed me like 10 examples of Batman killing people, i don't know where he found them so i can't show them but they were all the stuff the creative teams squeezed in probably without the notice of editorial but i don't think editorial really gives a crap too anyway... 

So that does it... Batman is such a hypocritecal bastard. I haven't read any Batman for like 9 months now... i don't feel like it...

----------


## Agent Z

> No it didn't, go read the story for Christ's sake, he only intended to injure him so that DS would abandon TURPIN'S body.
> OHO you cant shoot somebody without killing them? this is news to me, you clearly see DS getting a shoulder wound. The story makes Batman's intentions clear, people can be shot non letahlly, 1+1+1=3, its that simple.


You do know people have died from shoulder wounds right? It's a lot easier to kill someone by shooting than injure them by shooting.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Joker was unarmed and was merely taunting Dick. 
> 
> That's not even getting into the times Bruce needed to be talked down from killing someone.
> 
> Given your idea of an "honorable" villain is Deathstroke, yeah not going to put much stock in that comment.


Taunting him with Tim's death you mean. If someone kills your loved one and then taunts you then I'm pretty sure you're going to want to kill said person too. Zero comparison with the Prometheus situation.
Yes in a fit of understandable rage, Huntress was about to commit murder outright. She was going to kill a braindead cripple whom she wasn't even good enough to beat. Even Lions and Tigers dont go after dead meat.
Even Slade would never kill a sitting duck, you want proof go read his appearances in Azrael. So yeah even he's got more honor despite being a VILLAIN, villain being the operative word. What a hero Huntress turns out to be.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> You do know people have died from shoulder wounds right? It's a lot easier to kill someone by shooting than injure them by shooting.


You do know people have lived from shoulder wounds right?

----------


## Batarang

> You do know people have lived from shoulder wounds right?


that bullet was poisiones, even if Darkseid had  a shoulder wound, The Batman intended to kill.

Don't you people read what i write ? he killed with a gun in Cosmic Odyssey. Batman's a freaking murderer to begin with when he shot Darkseid.

----------


## Agent Z

> Taunting him with Tim's death you mean. If someone kills your loved one and then taunts you then I'm pretty sure you're going to want to kill said person too. Zero comparison with the Prometheus situation.
> Yes in a fit of understandable rage, Huntress was about to commit murder outright. She was going to kill a braindead cripple whom she wasn't even good enough to beat. Even Lions and Tigers dont go after dead meat.
> Even Slade would never kill a sitting duck, you want proof go read his appearances in Azrael. So yeah even he's got more honor despite being a VILLAIN, villain being the operative word. What a hero Huntress turns out to be.


And Helena considered killing a guy once brought down nearly the entire Justice League, who has been partly responsible for a global war, untold (and mostly off-panel) murder and decimation.

And the only reason Dick didn't end up becoming a murderer is because Bruce bailed him out. Must be nice having others to cover up your screw ups. Helena at least owns what she does.

No, he'll just wipe an entire city full of sitting ducks off the face of the Earth and brag about it. You do remember the guy's an assassin, right? He has a code that he is ludicrously inconsistent with. If I had a dollar every time I read about him breaking his so called standards I'd be rich enough to buy DC comics.

If Helena isn't heroic because she tried to kill someone who couldn't fight back and needed to be stopped from doing it, then Bruce and Dick should also turn in their hero cards for every time they've been needed to be talked out of killing someone.

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah, kind of my point.


You know that you can just wound with guns, right? No killing rule, doesn't equal no harm. No guns police, doesn't equal to not use them when situation calls for that. 

Btw, I don't know why we're talking about Bruce, when I talked about Dick. 

You could say that. See, it's not hard. It was about Bruce and Huntress. But you instead decided to insist that Dick needs to suffer some consequences, because Huntress had to listen Bruce's lecture. She didn't even blink.

----------


## Batarang

Batman kills with a gun in cold blood.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Batman kills with a gun in cold blood.


Hey, Starlin doesn't count  :Wink:

----------


## nightbird

What a villain. He killed alien minion in cold blood. With a gun. Huh.

----------


## Batarang

> What a villain. He killed alien minion in cold blood. With a gun. Huh.


It's a living being. Batman's no killing rule applies on all kinds of living beings, villains, alien, clowns all of them.

----------


## Agent Z

> You know that you can just wound with guns, right? No killing rule, doesn't equal no harm. No guns police, doesn't equal to not use them when situation calls for that. 
> 
> Btw, I don't know why we're talking about Bruce, when I talked about Dick. 
> 
> You could say that. See, it's not hard. It was about Bruce and Huntress. But you instead decided to insist that Dick needs to suffer some consequences, because Huntress had to listen Bruce's lecture. She didn't even blink.


He shot Darkseid with a bullet made of a substance lethal to New Gods. The placement of the shot is irrelevant.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> And Helena considered killing a guy once brought down nearly the entire Justice League, who has been partly responsible for a global war, untold (and mostly off-panel) murder and decimation.
> 
> And the only reason Dick didn't end up becoming a murderer is because Bruce bailed him out. Must be nice having others to cover up your screw ups. Helena at least owns what she does.
> 
> No, he'll just wipe an entire city full of sitting ducks off the face of the Earth and brag about it. You do remember the guy's an assassin, right? He has a code that he is ludicrously inconsistent with. If I had a dollar every time I read about him breaking his so called standards I'd be rich enough to buy DC comics.
> 
> If Helena isn't heroic because she tried to kill someone who couldn't fight back and needed to be stopped from doing it, then Bruce and Dick should also turn in their hero cards for every time they've been needed to be talked out of killing someone.


1) He was finished, period.
2) Joker didn't die, period.
3) He didn't wipe the city, period and he didn't brag about it period. As per your logic Cass Cain is also a certified murderer, I mean, inconsistent writing and all.
4) Good thing Bruce and Dick never tried to kill a physical and mental cripple with their full senses intact and emotions in check. Your equivalency is shockingly false and disturbing.

----------


## Aioros22

> What a villain. He killed alien minion in cold blood. With a gun. Huh.


Ah, it`s fine as long its minions. 

With a gun.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> that bullet was poisiones, even if Darkseid had  a shoulder wound, The Batman intended to kill.
> 
> Don't you people read what i write ? he killed with a gun in Cosmic Odyssey. Batman's a freaking murderer to begin with when he shot Darkseid.


That poison was intended to force him out, Darkseid did not die in FC because of the bullet and Morrison's Darkseid isn't even a person, he's a literal embodiment of evil, there's no killing that.
Some mindless alien stooge, might as well hold funerals for Parademons.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, if the talk only concerns "major villains"..





This is after Batman spends a whole page wailing on Deacon and enjoying bringing him pain. But hey! I`ve made it easier, no guns.

----------


## TheSupernaut

I want Damian dead. I hate that kid. 

~Sincerely a Wally West fan.

----------


## nightbird

> He shot Darkseid with a bullet made of a substance lethal to New Gods. The placement of the shot is irrelevant.


I'm not gonna argue he that didn't had some intentions to kill him. Not sure about how harmful that substance was in a long terms, because I read Final Crisis fast (I had a lot of stuff to read), so I could overlook the fact where it says it could kill New Gods just by wounding them, without hitting vital parts. But hardly changes what I said. 
I also stand by what I said earlier about Bruce. I see it as a character flaw (sometimes writing is just bad). Personally, it hardly makes me dislike Bruce. 
By feeling bad for your favorite character, you made it others. Bruce breaking his own rules or Dick being emotionally compromised doesn't excuse Huntress and she didn't own anything more, than Dick did. You can call out anyone on hypocrisy, it would hardly change  persepective on what she did. Not like I started to think any less of her, to make it clear. But she wasn't right either.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Also, I think Diana might have had a different opinion given she didn't condemn Bruce for trying to kill Alexander Luthor.


Diana still convinced him not to do it. And he was emotional because his son was nearly killed. Helena just wanted to kill a dude who had not even done anything to her specifically.

Diana wouldn't support it. Prometheus was no longer a threat, Max Lord was.

----------


## nightbird

> Ah, it`s fine as long its minions. 
> 
> With a gun.


I'm waiting when people start call out Bruce for not being a vegan.

----------


## Agent Z

> 1) He was finished, period.
> 2) Joker didn't die, period.
> 3) He didn't wipe the city, period and he didn't brag about it period. As per your logic Cass Cain is also a certified murderer, I mean, inconsistent writing and all.
> 4) Good thing Bruce and Dick never tried to kill a physical and mental cripple with their full senses intact and emotions in check. Your equivalency is shockingly false and disturbing.


1) So was Joker. Well he almost was til Bruce gave him CPR cause he's such a glutton for punishment.

2) Neither did Prometheus.

3) Um, yeah he did. Seriosuly, how many times are you gonna deny this? Also, Cass is way more consistent. Now who's using false equivalencies.

4) As is you're whitewashing and double standards.

----------


## Agent Z

> Diana still convinced him not to do it. And he was emotional because his son was nearly killed. Helena just wanted to kill a dude who had not even done anything to her specifically.
> 
> Diana wouldn't support it. Prometheus was no longer a threat, Max Lord was.


Diana actually advocated for killing Dr, Light to stop him from possibly raping again. 

So Helena wanted to kill Prometheus to prevent future deaths at his hands *cough*Cry For Justice*cough but we're giving Bruce a pass because of his emotions? Because, you know, he's so supportive of people letting their emotions get the better of him. 

Helena's also been talked out of killing people too.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm waiting when people start call out Bruce for not being a vegan.


Yeah, no. 

It`s not about him having character flaws, the "gun" thing is hardly the only one he`s got. That`s fine. Now, trying to categorize the no killing rule with "it`s minions, it`s not minions" is silly. You`d have better luck with "It`s robots, it`s not robots" at least until a crossover with Magnus Robot Figther happens and he wails over his head about the Robots having the sentinent right to live.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 1) So was Joker. Well he almost was til Bruce gave him CPR cause he's such a glutton for punishment.
> 
> 2) Neither did Prometheus.
> 
> 3) Um, yeah he did. Seriosuly, how many times are you gonna deny this? Also, Cass is way more consistent. Now who's using false equivalencies.
> 
> 4) As is you're whitewashing and double standards.


No he hasn't, his mind and his mouth are equally dangerous weapons. Joker can be a threat even if he's tied up.
Because Bruce stopped Helena, she didn't relent out of good heart.
No he didn't, he was part of a council that did, get over it, even if he had voted to not nuke Bludhaven  that city was still doomed. Slade still keeps his promises, that is atleast consistent and he promised Dick he wouldn't harm the Haven. He was out voted, democracy for the kill. Oh so if Slade acts ooc then it's Slade's fault, Cass acts ooc then it's the writers fault, yeah right.
So if I try to kill a serial killer in a fit of rage while he's bragging about killing someone I cared for its totally similar to me killing someone who's out cold with a clear calculated precision. The former is called normal human behavior, the latter is called assassination.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Diana actually advocated for killing Dr, Light to stop him from possibly raping again. 
> 
> So Helena wanted to kill Prometheus to prevent future deaths at his hands *cough*Cry For Justice*cough but we're giving Bruce a pass because of his emotions? Because, you know, he's so supportive of people letting their emotions get the better of him. 
> 
> Helena's also been talked out of killing people too.


She never made a case for future deaths, she's no fortune teller.

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah, no. 
> 
> It`s not about him having character flaws, the "gun" thing is hardly the only one he`s got. That`s fine. Now, trying to categorize the no killing rule with "it`s minions, it`s not minions" is silly. You`d have better luck with "It`s robots, it`s not robots" at least until a crossover with Magnus Robot Figther happens and he wails over his head about the Robots having the sentinent right to live.


Mmm, yes. 
Bruce's rule was about humans and criminals. Then you have writers to bend it the way they want and how their own common sense tells them.
I don't see a point in arguing over minion. Feel free to think that Bats broke his rule there and total hypocrite.

----------


## Aioros22

As long it`s not a human from Earth (because there`s other humanoids around) it`s viable. 

Check.

----------


## Agent Z

> No he hasn't, his mind and his mouth are equally dangerous weapons. Joker can be a threat even if he's tied up.
> Because Bruce stopped Helena, she didn't relent out of good heart.
> No he didn't, he was part of a council that did, get over it, even if he had voted to not nuke Bludhaven  that city was still doomed. Slade still keeps his promises, that is atleast consistent and he promised Dick he wouldn't harm the Haven. He was out voted, democracy for the kill. Oh so if Slade acts ooc then it's Slade's fault, Cass acts ooc then it's the writers fault, yeah right.
> So if I try to kill a serial killer in a fit of rage while he's bragging about killing someone I cared for its totally similar to me killing someone who's out cold with a clear calculated precision. The former is called normal human behavior, the latter is called assassination.


If the person is dumb enough to listen to him apparently. The Joker's basically the super villain equivalent of a troll doing stuff to get attention.

And Joker is alive because Bruce gave him CPR not because Dick relented.

He promised Dick he wouldn't harm the Haven and kept that promise by harming the Haven, yeah that makes sense. Seriously, he told the Brotherhood that Nightwing should be made to believe that he can never go home again.

Slade acting like a villain is a hell more believable than Cass acting like a villain. Not even close.

And the former is called homicide. And the law doesn't give a crap how "understandable" it is. Especially if you have no proof the person you care about is dead. helena at least knew of Prometheus' crimes

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah I was trying to recall whether Dick saved his arse or Bruce did. 

But hey, he`no minion. He`s a human from Earth and deserves ta live more.

----------


## nightbird

> As long it`s not a human from Earth (because there`s other humanoids around) it`s viable. 
> 
> Check.


It's neither viable, nor it's something to cry over. You can act like you care, we both know it doesn't bother you a bit. It was always fun to collect "Bruce broke his rules" moments. I'm not gonna stop your fun  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah I was trying to recall whether Dick saved his arse or Bruce did. 
> 
> But hey, he`no minion. He`s a human from Earth and deserves ta live more.


I'm sure Clark, Kara and all other non human heroes will be thrilled to hear that :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> If the person is dumb enough to listen to him apparently. The Joker's basically the super villain equivalent of a troll doing stuff to get attention.
> 
> And Joker is alive because Bruce gave him CPR not because Dick relented.
> 
> He promised Dick he wouldn't harm the Haven and kept that promise by harming the Haven, yeah that makes sense. Seriously, he told the Brotherhood that Nightwing should be made to believe that he can never go home again.
> 
> Slade acting like a villain is a hell more believable than Cass acting like a villain. Not even close.
> 
> And the former is called homicide. And the law doesn't give a crap how "understandable" it is. Especially if you have no proof the person you care about is dead. helena at least knew of Prometheus' crimes


Calling dumb people who suffer from psychological attacks is only dumb on your own part. Joker killed and crippled people close to Dick. There was no reason to take his words easily, because his is well known total psycho. Second, Dick also knew about Joker's past crimes. It wasn't his intention to kill Joker, Helena went after Prometheus. Maybe it's time to stop, huh? If she owned what she did, then let her own it.

----------


## nightbird

> I'm sure Clark, Kara and all other non human heroes will be thrilled to hear that


I bet they also would be happy that you put them in the same line as Darksides' minions. Hooray.

----------


## Agent Z

> Calling dumb people who suffer from psychological attacks is only dumb on your own part. Joker killed and crippled people close to Dick. There was no reason to take his words easily, because his is well known total psycho. Second, Dick also knew about Joker's past crimes. It wasn't his intention to kill Joker, Helena went after Prometheus. Maybe it's time to stop, huh? If she owned what she did, then let her own it.


Joker's also a known liar which Dick should be aware of.

Again, if your logic is that Dick should be excused because he felt personally victimized why doesn't Bruce give anyone else a pass?

----------


## Agent Z

> I bet they also would be happy that you put them in the same line as Darksides' minions. Hooray.


Please don't twist my words.

----------


## nightbird

> Joker's also a known liar which Dick should be aware of.
> 
> Again, if your logic is that Dick should be excused because he felt personally victimized why doesn't Bruce give anyone else a pass?


Because of course Dick should've consider that Joker is lying, when he had every right and evidence to belive, that he is telling the truth considering his track record with Robins, but Helena could to go after villain considering his track record, believing (without any evidence) that he would do something in the future.

What pass your talking about? Dick who immediately regretted what he did or Helena who would kill without batting an eye, if Bruce wasn't here. Dick had no intention to kill Joker, Helena agreed with rules, but went after Prometheus with clear intentions to end his life, while not having any emotional baggage.  You want to pass two different scenarios as something similar, but it just doesn't work.




> Please don't twist my words.


I didn't.

----------


## Agent Z

> Because of course Dick should've consider that Joker is lying, when he had every right and evidence to belive, that he is telling the truth considering his track record with Robins, but Helena could to go after villain considering his track record, believing (without any evidence) that he would do something in the future.
> 
> What pass your talking about? Dick who immediately regretted what he did or Helena who would kill without batting an eye, if Bruce wasn't here. Dick had no intention to kill Joker, Helena agreed with rules, but went after Prometheus with clear intentions to end his life, while not having any emotional baggage.  You want to pass two different scenarios as something similar, but it just doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't.


You keep bringing up Dick's mental state as if I give a crap about it. I don't.

Oh really? Tell me, when did say I put them in the same line as Darksides' minions.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Yeah we kinda get that context is something that eludes you.
By equating their lives with the lives of mindless minions that Batman killed?

----------


## DurararaFTW

Joker took the crowbar to Tim, he didn't carefully calculate how much damage he can inflict leave him seeming dead just long enough to convince an onlooker but no more. There was no lie. Tim just got lucky. As for personally forgiving Dick for his reaction, that's entirely up to Batman. It isn't anymore illegal then a hundred other things any of them have done. Given that he raised Dick, trained him and has worked with him for many years I can certainly see the argument that Batman feels responsible and has reason to expect better in the future but isn't half as invested in Huntress. I'd say it should have been a bigger deal, Batman should be shown considering distancing himself from Dick and his Lady MacBeth Barbara for stooping to killing.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> If the person is dumb enough to listen to him apparently. The Joker's basically the super villain equivalent of a troll doing stuff to get attention.
> 
> And Joker is alive because Bruce gave him CPR not because Dick relented.
> 
> He promised Dick he wouldn't harm the Haven and kept that promise by harming the Haven, yeah that makes sense. Seriously, he told the Brotherhood that Nightwing should be made to believe that he can never go home again.
> 
> Slade acting like a villain is a hell more believable than Cass acting like a villain. Not even close.
> 
> And the former is called homicide. And the law doesn't give a crap how "understandable" it is. Especially if you have no proof the person you care about is dead. helena at least knew of Prometheus' crimes


I'll be sure to tell that to people who were victims of sociopaths. 

Dick killed him in a fit or rage then regretted it, Joker still lives so there is nothing to talk about. Bruce recognized that Dick felt remorse.
He didn't have the power to keep it, Slades failure was literally pointed out by Batman at the end of IC.

Inconsistent writing can attack any character. Villain or hero or whatever.

The law absolutely will give a crap about context which you're hell bent on ignoring.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah we kinda get that context is something that eludes you.
> By equating their lives with the lives of mindless minions that Batman killed?


Look who's talking.

Oh you mean when I called out Bruce's hypocrisy? Yeah I know how much you hate when that happens. My bad.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Show me where I ignored context? 

So Batman is a murderer because he killed a Parademon? ok.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Here's one to rile all of you up.
> 
> Jason Todd should have stayed dead, and Damian Wayne should have ended up becoming the Red Hood.
> 
> 
> I don't always speak for the people...


I agree, Jason being back cheapens his death.   Tim should still be Robin.

----------


## Agent Z

> Show me where I ignored context? 
> 
> So Batman is a murderer because he killed a Parademon? ok.


You mean in just this conversation?

More like Bruce is a hypocrite if he's willing to do that but whines when someone else does the same because the victim looked human.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> helena at least knew of Prometheus' crimes


Joker has killed hundreds, if not thousands that Dick know about. He's a mass murdered several times over, whatever Helena knows about Prometheus, he's small time compared to the Joker.

----------


## Carabas

> that bullet was poisiones, even if Darkseid had  a shoulder wound, The Batman intended to kill.


What is crucial here is that Batman did not shoot Darkseid. He shot the Darkseid's host body.

The intention was to make Turpin's body toxic to Darkseid, forcing Darkseid's spirit out of it. Which is what happened.

Also, Jim Starlin shouldn't be allowed to write Batman in the same sense he shouldn't be allowed to write Darkseid: he has zero unerstanding of the characters. All of the Batman killings (parademons, The Cult, KGBeast) were written by him.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> You mean in just this conversation?
> 
> More like Bruce is a hypocrite if he's willing to do that but whines when someone else does the same because the victim looked human.


Helena is also a hypocrite when saying Batman is arrogant and judgemental while not recognizing she is exactly the same way. She was passing judgement on Prometheus when it was not her place 

It is also the point of her character to be that way, whereas it generally isn't for most versions of Bruce as Carabas pointed out.

----------


## Agent Z

> Helena is also a hypocrite when saying Batman is arrogant and judgemental while not recognizing she is exactly the same way. She was passing judgement on Prometheus when it was not her place 
> 
> It is also the point of her character to be that way, whereas it generally isn't for most versions of Bruce as Carabas pointed out.


Trying to kill Prometheus is arrogant? Yeah they're both judgemental which is why I don't get why Bruce gets on Helena's case when she decides to take it a few steps further. Yeah it's not her place but it isn't his either.

I can live with that provided he's not breathing down others necks for not playing by that rule and writers don't try to wring cheap drama out of a rule that only exists to keep popular villains in print.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Trying to kill Prometheus is arrogant? Yeah they're both judgemental which is why I don't get why Bruce gets on Helena's case when she decides to take it a few steps further. Yeah it's not her place but it isn't his either.
> 
> I can live with that provided he's not breathing down others necks for not playing by that rule and writers don't try to wring cheap drama out of a rule that only exists to keep popular villains in print.


Batman doesn't want killer vigilantes in his city or on his team. It's not difficult to understand.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Trying to kill Prometheus is arrogant? Yeah they're both judgemental which is why I don't get why Bruce gets on Helena's case when she decides to take it a few steps further. Yeah it's not her place but it isn't his either.
> 
> I can live with that provided he's not breathing down others necks for not playing by that rule and writers don't try to wring cheap drama out of a rule that only exists to keep popular villains in print.



Uh yeah it is super arrogant to kill someone who is no longer a threat. There have to be limits or else there would be chaos. Prometheus was handed to the court's and regardless of how effective they are that's the way things are done. Killing him without a jury or doing it based on what he MIGHT do in the future is sketchy as Hell.

He is a senior member of the League and she's there on his reccomendation. He had every right to breathe down her neck because she's pissing on the opportunity herself. Sparing a defenseless foe isn't  wringing cheap drama, it's being a decent human being.

----------


## Carabas

> Uh yeah it is super arrogant to kill someone who is no longer a threat. There have to be limits or else there would be chaos. Prometheus was handed to the court's and regardless of how effective they are that's the way things are done. Killing him without a jury or doing it based on what he MIGHT do in the future is sketchy as Hell.
> 
> He is a senior member of the League and she's there on his reccomendation. He had every right to breathe down her neck because she's pissing on the opportunity herself. Sparing a defenseless foe isn't  wringing cheap drama, it's being a decent human being.


It was massively out of character for Huntress, and the only reason she did it was because the Bat-Editorial had edicted that the character was leaving the JLA and returing to Gotham for whatever reason.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It was massively out of character for Huntress, and the only reason she did it was because the Bat-Editorial had edicted that the character was leaving the JLA and returing to Gotham for whatever reason.


Yeah I think I heard that, which is a shame as I liked her development until that point. In-universe though it's still not justified.

Was it so Rucka could do his arc with her in NML?

----------


## Agent Z

> Batman doesn't want killer vigilantes in his city or on his team. It's not difficult to understand.


Two words: Damian Wayne. Two other words: Jason Todd.

----------


## Caivu

> Two words: Damian Wayne. Two other words: Jason Todd.


Six more: Kate Kane, Cassandra Cain, and Clayface.

----------


## The Kid

> Two words: Damian Wayne. Two other words: Jason Todd.


Tbh this really proves is what a weakness the Batfam can be sometimes. It's why Batman ultimately works best when there's at best only one or two other vigilantes in his city. Comics as a medium I can handwave it for but when they adapt live action, nothing more than Nightwing and Batgirl should ever show up. Maybe Damian if they want to go in that direction

----------


## Agent Z

> Uh yeah it is super arrogant to kill someone who is no longer a threat. There have to be limits or else there would be chaos. Prometheus was handed to the court's and regardless of how effective they are that's the way things are done. Killing him without a jury or doing it based on what he MIGHT do in the future is sketchy as Hell.
> 
> He is a senior member of the League and she's there on his reccomendation. He had every right to breathe down her neck because she's pissing on the opportunity herself. Sparing a defenseless foe isn't  wringing cheap drama, it's being a decent human being.


Everything superheroes do is sketchy.

And what of every other time he's gotten on her case when she isn't on the League?

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Two words: Damian Wayne. Two other words: Jason Todd.


Yeah, and those developments suck, complained about them plenty. Does not mean there never should have been a time when Batman paid some iota of heed to his no killing rule, or had some slight of expectation of his allies to be superheroic.

----------


## Assam

> Six more: Kate Kane, Cassandra Cain, and Clayface.


One More: LOBO!  :Mad:  (Seriously, JLA is so dumb) All the other characters who've been brought up as killers _regret_ their actions deeply.(Except for Jason. Maybe Kate too. Not sure on her end.)

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah I think I heard that, which is a shame as I liked her development until that point. In-universe though it's still not justified.
> 
> Was it so Rucka could do his arc with her in NML?


I don't know but it could be, I suppose.

Granted, that was a great arc for the character.

----------


## Caivu

> All the other characters who've been brought up as killers _regret_ their actions deeply.(Except for Jason. Maybe Kate too. Not sure on her end.)


The only time Kate has shown regret over killing is when she thought she killed Beth. Other than that, nope. She's only killed when necessary, and as someone who originally intended to join the Army, she would totally be okay with that.

----------


## Assam

> The only time Kate has shown regret over killing is when she thought she killed Beth. Other than that, nope. She's only killed when necessary,* and as someone who originally intended to join the Army, she would totally be okay with that.*


Yeah, I figured as much.

----------


## Frontier

> Two words: Damian Wayne. Two other words: Jason Todd.


Contrary to what the recent _Teen Titans_ annual would have you believe, Damian actively tries not to be a killer anymore and follow the ideals of his father, not wanting to become like the boy his mother raised again.

Whether Jason regrets his kills or not or how much he'll still abide by Bruce's code is heavily dependent on the writer and the story. 



> One More: LOBO!  (Seriously, JLA is so dumb) All the other characters who've been brought up as killers _regret_ their actions deeply.(Except for Jason. Maybe Kate too. Not sure on her end.)


I know this probably sounds ridiculous, but I'll take Lobo on JLA over Harley. At least he's fun in that book.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Six more: Kate Kane, Cassandra Cain, and Clayface.


Cass doesn't count on that score, as she's only ever killed one person and wasn't raised within a proper environment to understand why it is wrong. Ignorance and abuse is her defense.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The only time Kate has shown regret over killing is when she thought she killed Beth. Other than that, nope. She's only killed when necessary, and as someone who originally intended to join the Army, she would totally be okay with that.


Once she adopts the Bat mantle she seems dead set against killing. She wouldn't let Montoya take a killingshot in 52.

----------


## Caivu

> Once she adopts the Bat mantle she seems dead set against killing. She wouldn't let Montoya take a killingshot in 52.


She killed Bruno Mannheim in 52.

She killed Medusa.

She killed three of Morgan le Fay's goons and then Morgan herself.

She shot Colony Prime in the face with a shotgun after he became a monster (even though it didn't kill him).

She's against _needless_ killing. Not killing, full-stop.




> Cass doesn't count on that score, as she's only ever killed one person and wasn't raised within a proper environment to understand why it is wrong. Ignorance and abuse is her defense.


I know. The point is, she _has_ killed, and Batman still accepts her.

----------


## Frontier

I think Batman's willing to accept someone with a past of killing so long as they seem repentant, or their killings were due to circumstances outside of their control, or are absolutely committed to not killing so long as they wear his symbol.

----------


## Aioros22

> *Yeah, and those developments suck*, complained about them plenty. Does not mean there never should have been a time when Batman paid some iota of heed to his no killing rule, or had some slight of expectation of his allies to be superheroic.


Said developments doesn`t jeopardize someone whose stance on the killing rule has been sketchy in moments. 

It`s not even a Batfam thing. Remember Year Two? First thing he does after getting the mother of beatodowns in the hands of the Reaper is to grab a gun to fight fire with fire. There was only Jim Gordon and Alfred.

----------


## Aioros22

> What is crucial here is that Batman did not shoot Darkseid. He shot the Darkseid's host body.
> 
> The intention was to make Turpin's body toxic to Darkseid, forcing Darkseid's spirit out of it. Which is what happened.
> 
> Also, Jim Starlin shouldn't be allowed to write Batman in the same sense he shouldn't be allowed to write Darkseid: he has zero unerstanding of the characters. All of the Batman killings (parademons, The Cult, KGBeast) were written by him.


So...intending to kill a host body is less of a killing?

----------


## Aioros22

> It's neither viable, nor it's something to cry over. You can act like you care, we both know it doesn't bother you a bit. It was always fun to collect "Bruce broke his rules" moments. I'm not gonna stop your fun


If it`s the argument at hand, it`s the argument at hand. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I don`t feel guilty either way and I don`t know why anyone would.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think Batman's willing to accept someone with a past of killing so long as they seem repentant, or their killings were due to circumstances outside of their control, or are absolutely committed to not killing so long as they wear his symbol.


I think some fans, honestly take a sacred stance on narrative when it`s mutable. Back in WW2 days, Superman was busting tanks while shouting racial slur, these days he doesn`t act that way for obvious reasons. He use dto kill corporate suits and from a certain point became known as the Boy Scout. 

Batman, understandly so, in a modern view, will protect life. Not just human life, since you know - a good deal of his friends aren`t human, despite looking humanoids. But also understandably so, will take the hard decision if there`s something in the balance. That`s part of the Hero journey. That`s part of what the protectores do. 

And this is why Jason is allowed on the team. It`s written plainly and easy to get. Jason, in certain situations will do the hard decision that Batman might not be able to because he`s afraid to lose his way while Jason has proven he can come back. He knows the way better than Bruce ever will. 

And sometimes, _sometimes_, to varying degrees, Bruce will do it if there`s no other way. He`s done it before. Fans need to realize it`s not a batfam thing, it`s a media thing. It`s a perception thing. Burton`s Batman killed and maimed. Pure and simple.

----------


## Frontier

I still want to see a modern live-action Batman movie where he definitively doesn't kill anybody  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I think some fans, honestly take a sacred stance on narrative when it`s mutable. Back in WW2 days, Superman was busting tanks while shouting racial slur, these days he doesn`t act that way for obvious reasons. He use dto kill corporate suits and from a certain point became known as the Boy Scout. 
> 
> Batman, understandly so, in a modern view, will protect life. Not just human life, since you know - a good deal of his friends aren`t human, despite looking humanoids. But also understandably so, will take the hard decision if there`s something in the balance. That`s part of the Hero journey. That`s part of what the protectores do. 
> 
> And this is why Jason is allowed on the team. It`s written plainly and easy to get. Jason, in certain situations will do the hard decision that Batman might not be able to because he`s afraid to lose his way while Jason has proven he can come back. He knows the way better than Bruce ever will. 
> 
> And sometimes, _sometimes_, to varying degrees, Bruce will do it if there`s no other way. He`s done it before. Fans need to realize it`s not a batfam thing, it`s a media thing. It`s a perception thing. Burton`s Batman killed and maimed. Pure and simple.


Nice to know for all the people Jason gets to kill indiscriminately that he will eventually, probably, lighten up.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, that`s about what I`d expect someone to say out of not reading about said development. 

But hey, they`re pretty much all minions.

----------


## Carabas

> So...intending to kill a host body is less of a killing?


He shot him in the shoulder, which in fiction isn't lethal. Unles you're allergic to the bullet.

It was but a flesh wound for Dan Turpin, but would have been lethal to Darkseid if he has stayed in that body.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Yeah, that`s about what I`d expect someone to say out of not reading about said development. 
> 
> But hey, they`re pretty much all minions.


And Jason served as a member of the League of Assassins. But he gets to judge himself worthy of life but not the goons of a Gotham villain. Or when he ordered Starfire to wipe out a tank battalion, they were just participating in the same foreign conflict that Roy got put in prison for. But they all died at Jason's command in exchange for Roy's freedom. And the only thing Lobdell's Batman had to say about it was "I can't argue with the results, so I've instructed Superman and the rest of the Justice League to give you guys carte blanche." If Batman really can't argue with the result of killing the villains he encounters, the Joker would be dead. He's not because Batman obviously CAN conjure some arguments against killing in his head, just to much of a coward to use them against Jason. That's a not a Batman I like seeing.

----------


## Agent Z

> He shot him in the shoulder, which in fiction isn't lethal. Unles you're allergic to the bullet.


But he was allergic to it

----------


## Carabas

> But he was allergic to it


Turpin was not. Darkseid was, but he had the option of avoiding the poison by leaving the body. Which he took.

----------


## Aioros22

> And Jason served as a member of the League of Assassins. But he gets to judge himself worthy of life but not the goons of a Gotham villain. Or when he ordered Starfire to wipe out a tank battalion, they were just participating in the same foreign conflict that Roy got put in prison for. But they all died at Jason's command in exchange for Roy's freedom. And the only thing Lobdell's Batman had to say about it was "I can't argue with the results, so I've instructed Superman and the rest of the Justice League to give you guys carte blanche." If Batman really can't argue with the result of killing the villains he encounters, the Joker would be dead. He's not because Batman obviously CAN conjure some arguments against killing in his head, just to much of a coward to use them against Jason. That's a not a Batman I like seeing.




Jason isn`t around preaching how he`s more deserving, so that`s a moot point. He`s there doing what feels is a tremendous lack of Justice in the world but doesn`t shrug off that responsability. 

Batman, since it`s the important question, has been said under Loedbell`s Rebirth that he trusts Jason to make the best out of what he has become. He trusts him because he knows he can deal with that sort of burden, whereas he wouldn`t. Until he might and he has to pay penance for it like he did when he was lost in time.

Said dealing of burden from Jason`s part isn`t a happy place as anyone can read in his stories. It`s not supposed to either and there`s a reason why he`s synpathetic to the audiences.

----------


## Aioros22

> He shot him in the shoulder, which in fiction isn't lethal. Unles you're allergic to the bullet.
> 
> It was but a flesh wound for Dan Turpin, but would have been lethal to Darkseid if he has stayed in that body.


He intented to shoot with something that could kill Darkseid. 

Look, I`m not even trying to tag him the hypocrite card but I don`t see why there`s so much technicality in defense of intention from his part as if we were in a Court of Law.

----------


## RedQueen

> I still want to see a modern live-action Batman movie where he definitively doesn't kill anybody .


Yes! He can be Batgod or super grimdark but I think him not willing to kill is a staple of of his morality. I think him not killing also explains why Gordon is willing to work with him, because it wouldn't make much sense if a commissioner of police publicly worked with someone who kills under his watch. The moral dilemma of Bruce not willing to kill has always interested to me.

----------


## Frontier

> Yes! He can be Batgod or super grimdark but I think him not willing to kill is a staple of of his morality. I think him not killing also explains why Gordon is willing to work with him, because it wouldn't make much sense if a commissioner of police publicly worked with someone who kills under his watch. The moral dilemma of Bruce not willing to kill has always interested to me.


Agreed  :Smile: .

----------


## Carabas

> He intented to shoot with something that could kill Darkseid.


Well, he did not intend to shoot. He shot.
But Darkseid would have had to be feeling extremely suicidal for the bullet to hurt him.




> Look, I`m not even trying to tag him the hypocrite card but I don`t see why there`s so much technicality in defense of intention from his part as if we were in a Court of Law.


I don't get why it is so hard to get that all that Batman did was force Darkseid to stop posessing Dan Turpin.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Jason isn`t around preaching how he`s more deserving, so that`s a moot point. He`s there doing what feels is a tremendous lack of Justice in the world but doesn`t shrug off that responsability. 
> 
> Batman, since it`s the important question, has been said under Loedbell`s Rebirth that he trusts Jason to make the best out of what he has become. He trusts him because he knows he can deal with that sort of burden, whereas he wouldn`t. Until he might and he has to pay penance for it like he did when he was lost in time.
> 
> Said dealing of burden from Jason`s part isn`t a happy place as anyone can read in his stories. It`s not supposed to either and there`s a reason why he`s synpathetic to the audiences.


What makes Jason sympathetic or not, or how he struggles with it is neither here not there. Problem is Batman picked him out and said "yes, _you_, and you alone can kill in my city. Or any damn city you want, really. As far as the Justice League is concerned, the world is Jason's oyster exclusively." There is NOTHING Jason could have possibly done to deserve this in Batman's eyes.

----------


## Aioros22

You`re making a statement that isn`t there. Vouching for him never gave card blanche for Jason to kill without discrimination. Which is _exactly_ what his development is partly about and why it is_ here_ and _now_ to mention it. That development is every bit the reason he could ever possibly deserve any level of trust in Batman`s eyes. Cue in everytime he saved innocents lives. 

This isn`t Deathstroke (of whom he also worked with) this isn`t the Joker (of whom he has paired with) this isn`t Two Face (of whom he has paired with). This is someone that despite the pain and methods will aim for the greater good. He may not agree with how he works but he _gets_ it. That level of understanding of who Jason is will always make it more deserving than some other characters.

Oh, but he traded lives for Roy. Yeah he was in the middle of a war conflit and he made a decision. Roy`s life for slavers.

----------


## Bionicman

Here's an opinion that might not be controversial on this forum but seemingly is in the general Batman fanbase: I hate, despise, and abhor the idea that Batman/Bruce 'needs' the Joker and would feel saddened by his death, and am similarly contemptuous of any story where he actively saves the Joker's life. At that point, Bruce is a villain who needs to be killed as much as any member of his rogues gallery.

Less controversial overall, but more so on this forum: the presence of the Batfamily, which theoretically should improve Bruce as a character, has in practice horribly damaged him, by pigeonholing him as the jerk. The expansion of the family coincided with the 'Batjerk' phase where Bruce's entire personality could be summed up as 'paranoid asshole'. Some of this is because making Bruce the stern jerk allows easier contrast with the rest of the family (The New Batman Adventures, the follow-up season to Batman: The Animated Series, did a less extreme version of this), and some is because 'teenager rebelling against tyrannical parent' is a time tested formula. A perfect example is the work of Chuck Dixon, who 1) is easily the most important author in the history of the non-Bruce family members, and 2) loved portraying Bruce as a jerk in his interactions with those characters. Remember, he is the guy who retconned the mature, respectful separation between Dick and Bruce into an acrimonious split that lasted about a decade of real time. The result is that Bruce is consistently a far less likable and entertaining character with the family than without, due to him being stereotyped as 'stern, humorless, controlling patriarch'.

Combine my opinions on the Joker and on family-induced asshole behavior, and you can see why I'm glad I skipped the Lego Batman movie; just reading the Wikipedia summary raised my blood pressure.

----------


## Baseman

> Here's an opinion that might not be controversial on this forum but seemingly is in the general Batman fanbase: I hate, despise, and abhor the idea that Batman/Bruce 'needs' the Joker and would feel saddened by his death, and am similarly contemptuous of any story where he actively saves the Joker's life. At that point, Bruce is a villain who needs to be killed as much as any member of his rogues gallery.
> 
> *Less controversial overall, but more so on this forum: the presence of the Batfamily, which theoretically should improve Bruce has a character, has in practice horribly damaged him, by pigeonholing him as the jerk. The expansion of the family coincided with the 'Batjerk' phase where Bruce's entire personality could be summed up as 'paranoid asshole'. Some of this is because making Bruce the stern jerk allows easier contrast with the rest of the family (The New Batman Adventures, the follow-up season to Batman: The Animated Series, did a less extreme version of this), and some is because 'teenager rebelling against tyrannical parent' is a time tested formula. A perfect example is the work of Chuck Dixon, who 1) is easily the most important author in the history of the non-Bruce family members, and 2) loved portraying Bruce as a jerk in his interactions with those characters. Remember, he is the guy who retconned the mature, respectful separation between Dick and Bruce into an acrimonious split that lasted about a decade of real time. The result is that Bruce is consistently a far less likable and entertaining character with the family than without, due to him being stereotyped as 'stern, humorless, controlling patriarch'.*
> 
> Combine my opinions on the Joker and on family-induced asshole behavior, and you can see why I'm glad I skipped the Lego Batman movie; just reading the Wikipedia summary raised my blood pressure.


To be fair.His 'Paranoid asshole' characterization is hardly limited to Bat family interactions.

Its seems to be the Batman version what Wonder woman sometimes suffers from.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I loved Silver St Cloud.  They should bring her back and actually have a successful, long running relationship with Bruce.  And if not Bruce, I'd LOVE to see Dick with a smart, beautiful, classy woman like Silver.



I would so love to see her back. But not with Dick Grayson. It would just ruin that dynamic. Then again if the writers can make it good then it's an okay with me.




> Here some of my controversial opinions i wanted to share.
> 
> I think Affleck has the potential to be the best Batman/Bruce in live action if given the right material to work with. As of now however i feel Keaton is still the best so far.
> 
> Arkham origins isn't that bad of a game. 
> 
> I like The Batman and its version of the Joker.
> 
> My most controversial however is that i prefer Zero Year to Year One(yeah i said it).


I love The Batman. First cartoon that we really see who is Bruce Wayne. I get the whole Bruce Wayne is Batman stuff but I want to see some Bruce Wayne.





> Tom King's run, at least what I've read of it so far up to Rooftops, has already proven to be better than Scott Snyder's New 52 Batman. Where Snyder's run felt very formulaic, wordy, and boring after everything new grant morrison introduced to the character, King's Batman feels like more of a breath of fresh air. Weird instances of dialogue aside (not a fan of bat and cat), I think Tom King is taking the character to more new and interesting places.
> 
> Tynion's detective comics is so bland, at least going off of Rise of the Batmen. I like that he tried to salvage Tim Drake, but all of his characters speak in the same voice. There's just something very off about how he writes everyone, no one really speaks right but I can't place my finger on it.
> 
> Can we please get past Kevin Conroy? I love his work in the DCAU, Mask of the Phantasm especially, but he phones in every single performance nowadays and doesn't sound intimidating in the slightest. Bring back Bruce Greenwood, Jeremy Sisto, Anthony Ruivar, and Troy Baker back for more chances to reprise the role. I'm so sick of hearing Conroy's stilted and awkward delivery in everything he pops up in.


I agree with Tynion and also agree on Conroy. The thing where he lost me was TNBA where Bruce sounded the same as Batman. I mean come on. To me Bruce Greenwood is the best Batman voice.

----------


## Caivu

> *I agree with Tynion* and also agree on Conroy.


Why do you think everyone in 'Tec sounds the same? Because they really don't, unless I'm missing something.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Why do you think everyone in 'Tec sounds the same? Because they really don't, unless I'm missing something.


Just the feel and from my perspective. I feel like all the characters he wrote just feel the same in tone and stuff like that. I might be reading way too much into it or it is just my perspective plus I'm not a fan of the writer in the first place, so some bias comes into play. 

It is probably more me than you.

----------


## Caivu

> Just the feel and from my perspective. I feel like all the characters he wrote just feel the same in tone and stuff like that. I might be reading way too much into it or it is just my perspective plus I'm not a fan of the writer in the first place, so some bias comes into play. 
> 
> *It is probably more me than you.*


I suppose, because Cass _alone_ disproves that notion. I don't get it at all.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Two words: Damian Wayne. Two other words: Jason Todd.


One word, redemption. Damian and Jason showed willingness to listen, Damian in particular craves approval and will do anything Bruce asks and Jason has daddy issues with Bruce as well.
Helena? yeah no. Also Jason recently spared Black Mask after he became a mindless retard himself, it was the same situation as Prometheus.

----------


## nightbird

> You keep bringing up Dick's mental state as if I give a crap about it. I don't.


Because it's freakin' important. You constantly make up excuses for Huntress, while ignoring crucial moments. But thank you for showing me that this discussion actully pretty pointless.

----------


## Frontier

I wouldn't trade Conroy in certain situations for anyone. 

He's helped sell me on _Injustice_ Batman and JLA Batman wouldn't be half as funny if Conroy wasn't voicing him  :Wink: .

----------


## DurararaFTW

> You`re making a statement that isn`t there. Vouching for him never gave card blanche for Jason to kill without discrimination. Which is _exactly_ what his development is partly about and why it is_ here_ and _now_ to mention it. That development is every bit the reason he could ever possibly deserve any level of trust in Batman`s eyes. Cue in everytime he saved innocents lives. 
> 
> This isn`t Deathstroke (of whom he also worked with) this isn`t the Joker (of whom he has paired with) this isn`t Two Face (of whom he has paired with). This is someone that despite the pain and methods will aim for the greater good. He may not agree with how he works but he _gets_ it. That level of understanding of who Jason is will always make it more deserving than some other characters.
> 
> Oh, but he traded lives for Roy. Yeah he was in the middle of a war conflit and he made a decision. Roy`s life for slavers.


That Jason can be trusted to deal with killing better then the villains or Batman emotionally does not give him the right to take away people's lives. It's not about what it does to Jason, it's about what it does to his victims. And no. Starfire could have just grabbed Roy and Jason and flown _up_, instead of straight through the enemy lines. No ****s were given. Which is fine for a book titled "Outlaws", but Batman who does respect the law should not be on board with their methods, regardless of whether he "gets it".

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

> I suppose, because Cass _alone_ disproves that notion. I don't get it at all.


Ok, you got me on cass, so me saying EVERYONE is an exaggeration. Tynion is not as bad as Bendis in that regard, but there's just a very off and bland feel to the dialogue when it comes out of characters' mouths. For Tom King's faults, he at least tries to do interesting things with how the characters speak, and the plot structure.

----------


## Alan2099

> Here's an opinion that might not be controversial on this forum but seemingly is in the general Batman fanbase: I hate, despise, and abhor the idea that Batman/Bruce 'needs' the Joker and would feel saddened by his death, and am similarly contemptuous of any story where he actively saves the Joker's life. At that point, Bruce is a villain who needs to be killed as much as any member of his rogues gallery.


I'm really not that fond of the idea that Joker _needs_ Batman either.  

I much prefer the take Joke would kill him in a minute if it was dramatic or funny enough.  I doesn't want their game to go on forever.  Joker is just interested in Joker.  He wants to be Gotham's Number 1 and he just can't as long as Batman "gets all his press," and of course that means he can't let anyone _else_ kill batman either.   

I loved the loine he gave to Bruce in Return of the Joker.  "I suppose I should salute you as a worthy adversary and all that, but the truth is I really did hate your guts."

----------


## Caivu

> Ok, you got me on cass, so me saying EVERYONE is an exaggeration. Tynion is not as bad as Bendis in that regard, but there's just a very off and bland feel to the dialogue when it comes out of characters' mouths. For Tom King's faults, he at least tries to do interesting things with how the characters speak, and the plot structure.


Thanks for the explanation, but I still don't see what you mean. Every single one of them sounds distinct to me (some more so than others).

Since you brought up King, I should maybe mention that his Batman and Catwoman sound way more alike than anyone in 'Tec does (partially due to them repeating each other).

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## Agent Z

> One word, redemption. Damian and Jason showed willingness to listen, Damian in particular craves approval and will do anything Bruce asks and Jason has daddy issues with Bruce as well.
> Helena? yeah no. Also Jason recently spared Black Mask after he became a mindless retard himself, it was the same situation as Prometheus.


Irrelevant to my point. That Damian and Jason have daddy issues does not make them any less killers which is what I was responding to. Helena has spared people too without needing Bruce and unlike Jason didn't target civilians just to piss him off.

And I haven't even mentioned Bruce turning a blind eye to Selina and Talia's kills.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Thanks for the explanation, but I still don't see what you mean. Every single one of them sounds distinct to me (some more so than others).
> 
> Since you brought up King, I should maybe mention that his Batman and Catwoman sound way more alike than anyone in 'Tec does (partially due to them repeating each other).


Like I said before it is just perspective. Just like preferring certain writers to others. 

I haven't read Tom King's Batman yet tbqh. 

Also another opinion. I never liked Dick being super happy and stuff. I don't know why but it just doesn't fit that well. He's written great when he has a positive outlook in life like Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman and Supergirl but like not too happy and quippy.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Irrelevant to my point. That Damian and Jason have daddy issues does not make them any less killers which is what I was responding to. Helena has spared people too without needing Bruce and unlike Jason didn't target civilians just to piss him off.
> 
> And I haven't even mentioned Bruce turning a blind eye to Selina and Talia's kills.


Helena wasn't raised by LOA nor did she unnaturally return from the dead but both still got over it. You're just pissed she isn't as popular.

Talia died and I've already said that he's willing to reform criminals as long as they take a new path. Bane, Riddler, Dent etc.

----------


## Agent Z

> Helena wasn't raised by LOA nor did she unnaturally return from the dead but both still got over it. You're just pissed she isn't as popular.
> 
> Talia died and I've already said that he's willing to reform criminals as long as they take a new path. Bane, Riddler, Dent etc.


And Helena was raised by the mafia. Your point? They still killed. Jason still kills. Popularity's got nothing to do with it. Don't know why you keep going to that well for deflecting when it is never brought up. I could give less of a crap how popular Jason or Damian is

You and I both know that his treatment of Talia or Selina had nothing to do with reformation. When those Bane commits a crime Bruce still takes him down

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## DurararaFTW

> Irrelevant to my point. That Damian and Jason have daddy issues does not make them any less killers which is what I was responding to. Helena has spared people too without needing Bruce and unlike Jason didn't target civilians just to piss him off.
> 
> And I haven't even mentioned Bruce turning a blind eye to Selina and Talia's kills.


Those people aren't serving in the Justice League either. Batman DID warm up too Helena, she was the only one he was okay with working in Gotham during No Mans Land.

----------


## Aioros22

> That Jason can be trusted to deal with killing better then the villains or Batman emotionally does not give him the right to take away people's lives. It's not about what it does to Jason, it's about what it does to his victims. And no. Starfire could have just grabbed Roy and Jason and flown _up_, instead of straight through the enemy lines. No ****s were given. Which is fine for a book titled "Outlaws", but Batman who does respect the law should not be on board with their methods, regardless of whether he "gets it".


I don`t recall all she required was _flying up_ and be done with it but regardless of it why are you picking an example where _Law_ is *exactly* sketchy? Law and space conflit = whose law? 

Batman who respects _mostly_ the Law reconliced with Diana after she snapped Lord`s neck. I don`t believe she ever lost sleep over it either.

----------


## Aioros22

> Irrelevant to my point. That Damian and Jason have daddy issues does not make them any less killers which is what I was responding to. Helena has spared people too without needing Bruce and unlike Jason didn't target civilians just to piss him off.
> 
> And I haven't even mentioned Bruce turning a blind eye to Selina and Talia's kills.


You two need to kiss and make up, none of the points are wrong.

Batman makes his own cavetae with Law and working with outlaws or heroes who do the necessary evil. Check. 

But he does it only for a select few because they offer something that most necessary evils or outright evils won`t or can`t. Double Check. 

If you want to say he has a bias that`s only bloody natural. Everybody does but he`s not sanctioning sweet Jason because of dead son issues, he`s sanctioning Jason because he`s done enough to prove to him he is someone they can work with. Red Hood may not lose sleep over slavers, pedophiles and such but he`s not a walking machine without feelings, regrets or the ability to grow and listen.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I don`t recall all she required was _flying up_ and be done with it but regardless of it why are you picking an example where _Law_ is *exactly* sketchy? Law and space conflit = whose law? 
> 
> Batman who respects _mostly_ the Law reconliced with Diana after she snapped Lord`s neck. I don`t believe she ever lost sleep over it either.


They broke up the Justice League because of stuff like that and when they reformed, Diana wasn't still snapping the necks the villains they encounter. Bruce reconciling with and forgiving his teammates for their past mistakes (regardless of whether Diana views them as such) is one thing, but condoning and actively enabling killing while it is still happening, like with Jason, is a completely different story.

----------


## Aioros22

> They broke up the Justice League because of stuff like that and when they reformed, Diana wasn't still snapping the necks the villains they encounter. Bruce reconciling with and forgiving his teammates for their past mistakes (regardless of whether Diana views them as such) is one thing, but condoning and actively enabling killing while it is still happening, like with Jason, is a completely different story.


Is it? Rebirth starts with Batman keeping an eye on Jason about Black Mask. He wanted to bring him down when it seemed he had gone rogue again after the Mayor`s assault. 

You keep acting like Batman just lets Jason do whatever he feels like, and that, at the very least in Gotham is _false_. You also brought the point of victims. Who vouches for Jason`s victims? Well, his targets (if it gets there) are usually unsympathetic  to any sane audiences. It`s hard to feel compassion for the likes of Joker, rapists or the ilk. If you bring the noton of law and state then who vouches for Joker`s victims? State won`t take matters in hand because in the eyes of Law he`s a cuckoo. In the few instances he looked rational he`s ever flat out rejected any semblance of redemption or truce from Bruce. From wanting to kill him. From wanting to hurt whoever. 

Who vouches for them everytime he flies out the cukoo nest? 

Batman? 

Readers wanted to embrace realism and now they have it. This is why Jason works. The whole law and victims argument runs _both ways_, even for Batman. The difference between Jason and some others is that he`s proven he can help and he`s willing to listen and understand/compromise given the situation, especially because, he sees the difference between some and others. Hence why the no kill shots in missions with the others in Gotham (Batman&Robin/Eternal) and hence why despite still making sure Black Mask didn`t come out smiling, he didn`t kill him. 

Back to Wonder Woman, curiously enough, she has also decapited enemies of her. She didn`t show any remorse for either act. How do you reconcilie _that_ with working together with Batman?

----------


## Carabas

> They broke up the Justice League because of stuff like that and when they reformed, Diana wasn't still snapping the necks the villains they encounter. Bruce reconciling with and forgiving his teammates for their past mistakes (regardless of whether Diana views them as such) is one thing, but condoning and actively enabling killing while it is still happening, like with Jason, is a completely different story.


Of course, snapping Lord's neck was not a mistake, but the only possible course of action.
And the JLA broke up over not killing villains, but mindwiping them, and any JLAer who disagreed.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Is it? Rebirth starts with Batman keeping an eye on Jason about Black Mask. He wanted to bring him down when it seemed he had gone rogue again after the Mayor`s assault.


Superman was told to back off from dealing the Outlaws in general by Batman. 




> You keep acting like Batman just lets Jason do whatever he feels like, and that, at the very least in Gotham is _false_. You also brought the point of victims. Who vouches for Jason`s victims? Well, his targets (if it gets there) are usually unsympathetic  to any sane audiences. It`s hard to feel compassion for the likes of Joker, rapists or the ilk. If you bring the noton of law and state then who vouches for Joker`s victims? State won`t take matters in hand because in the eyes of Law he`s a cuckoo. In the few instances he looked rational he`s ever flat out rejected any semblance of redemption or truce from Bruce. From wanting to kill him. From wanting to hurt whoever. 
> 
> Who vouches for them everytime he flies out the cukoo nest? 
> 
> Batman?


If Jason only targeted the Joker, and those with the same bodycount accompanied with an as obvious an insanity plea as the Joker (even among Gotham's rogue gallkery that list would be very slim) it'd be a different story. But it isn't. Jason doesn't go after the Joker or his ilk. Guns down mooks who for all he knows are in the same tough place he was before Bruce picked him up or after the Joker got to him.




> Readers wanted to embrace realism and now they have it. This is why Jason works. The whole law and victims argument runs _both ways_, even for Batman. The difference between Jason and some others is that he`s proven he can help and he`s willing to listen and understand/compromise given the situation, especially because, he sees the difference between some and others. Hence why the no kill shots in missions with the others in Gotham (Batman&Robin/Eternal) and hence why despite still making sure Black Mask didn`t come out smiling, he didn`t kill him.


Please don't use "realism" and "no kills shots" in the same argument. I really don't know how to take that mixed message. Jason relies on bullets to stop his enemies because them dying as a result is not big deal for him. That remains the case. Doesn't mean it always happens but he's okay with it. Even in Gotham.




> Back to Wonder Woman, curiously enough, she has also decapited enemies of her. She didn`t show any remorse for either act. How do you reconcilie _that_ with working together with Batman?


I don't, I have a big problem with Batman choosing to work alongside a version of Wonder Woman that is that much of an utterly needless psycho. But Wonder Woman forged her own way unto the Justice League. Red Hood is protected from being stopped by other superheroes because of Batman. And I don't see Bruce bringing WW too Gotham to deal with his crossover event, bringingall her swords and torture apparatus with her.

----------


## Vegan Daddy

Batman comics are dull without the homoerotic, half-naked orphan boys. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

----------


## darkseidpwns

> And Helena was raised by the mafia. Your point? They still killed. Jason still kills. Popularity's got nothing to do with it. Don't know why you keep going to that well for deflecting when it is never brought up. I could give less of a crap how popular Jason or Damian is
> 
> You and I both know that his treatment of Talia or Selina had nothing to do with reformation. When those Bane commits a crime Bruce still takes him down


Which she didn't believe in, she just used them for her own bloodlust. What part of wanting to be better did you fail to catch?

It does, he wants to believe they can reform. He also takes down Selina and Talia when they commit crimes.

----------


## yohyoi

Jason should have stayed a villain. He is suppose to be Batman's greatest failure. As a villain he was both relatable and the great tragedy of Bruce's war on crime, that he can't save all the people he cares about. Making Jason into a hero reduces the impact of his death and resurrection. Right now he feels out of place in the Bat family. Why would Batman allow a killer in the Bat family? Batman has put people in jail for less. It doesn't make sense. Jason just feels like a generic edgy bad boy of the Bat family. Tumblr loves Jason, but they also love a lot of things I don't care about. Ehhh... I don't really care, just putting it out since Jason's thread is full of fan art from Tumblr.

----------


## yohyoi

> If Jason only targeted the Joker, and those with the same bodycount accompanied with an as obvious an insanity plea as the Joker (even among Gotham's rogue gallkery that list would be very slim) it'd be a different story. But it isn't. Jason doesn't go after the Joker or his ilk. Guns down mooks who for all he knows are in the same tough place he was before Bruce picked him up or after the Joker got to him.


I wish this happens. It would make sense for Jason to keep on hunting the Joker with his dying breath. Why the hell is he shooting generic thugs when the Joker is running loose? He should use all that angst and anger trying to kill the Joker like in the Under The Red Hood. It makes it look like Jason has either amnesia or he is scared of the Joker.

----------


## Aioros22

> Superman was told to back off from dealing the Outlaws in general by Batman.


During the time in the book where the Outlaws were shown helping Leaguers and allies in more than one occassion. And _again_ more due to Jason`s rep. This is clear right away in the first lines of dialogue of Superman to Jason where he mentions he remembers him from years ago when Robin saved him _but.._rep. 




> *If Jason only targeted the Joker, and those with the same bodycount accompanied with an as obvious an insanity plea as the Joker (even among Gotham's rogue gallkery that list would be very slim) it'd be a different story. But it isn't.* Jason doesn't go after the Joker or his ilk. Guns down mooks who for *all he knows are* in the same tough place he was before Bruce picked him up or after the Joker got to him.


Make me a list of people in RATHO that he gun down that weren`t: "His ilk", mystical threats, space slavers, assassins, mercenaries, etc. 

He does go after the Joker and the only reason he hasn`t suceed is Batman. This of course, is taking in consideration he does know the difference between a Joker and a Penguin and that insanity on itself doesn`t excuse it. On the other hand, he tried to reform Joker`s Daugther..




> Please don't use "realism" and "no kills shots" in the same argument. I really don't know how to take that mixed message. Jason relies on bullets to stop his enemies because them dying as a result is not big deal for him. That remains the case. Doesn't mean it always happens but he's okay with it. Even in Gotham.


There`s no mixed message. An Anti-Hero is defined by how he views Justice and the use of lethal force. That`s the broad definition and there`s plenty of examples where he doesn`t go for the kill shot. Eternal is one such book where you can see this happening. He went plenty for wound shots only on whatever mooks until for example he encounters a factory of working children where he had clear intention of gunning slavers down. 

_Again_ there`s people he doesn`t lose sleep over. That`s nothing new. But this isn`t the reason he gets a level of trust, of which I already laid it out. After all, an anti hero will not have the shinning gleaming qualities of the conventional archetype but he requires to have heroic qualities to shoulder the bigger tragedy of character. Just so, why he gave JD the chance and after it backfires and taking down the Iron Rule he _breakes away from Roy_. This is development of character tragedy. Hence why at the start of Rebirth Batman keeps an eye on him again, because he fears Jason might go down the old path but he doesn`t. 

And that is why Batman gives him a lease of trust. 

_Lease_. Not card blanche. Don`t make the statement that isn`t there.

----------


## Aioros22

To be more precise, he has gone after the Joker but Joker happens to be more protected by Batman than any card blanche you could picture and Jason has tried to stay away from Gotham and _that_. But things have a way to keep grabbing you.

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## DurararaFTW

> During the time in the book where the Outlaws were shown helping Leaguers and allies in more than one occassion. And _again_ more due to Jason`s rep. This is clear right away in the first lines of dialogue of Superman to Jason where he mentions he remembers him from years ago when Robin saved him _but.._rep.


In the five year timeline, the first year was Dick Grayson being Robin, the next two was Jason's time as Robin. Then he died, then he trained with the League for year and then csme back insane. It's referenced in the first issue that he still tried to kill Divk several times, Tim makes mention that Jason still did terrible things to him. And we see that in the new version of Under the Hood, Jason does not stop short from killing Batman himself, Nightwing intervenes when Jason is looking batman down from a gunbarrel. Now forgiveness and understanding afterwards is one thing, but what wide spread reputation as reliable and unerring agent of justice do you imagine Jason built up already in that pretty short timespawn?




> Make me a list of people in RATHO that he gun down that weren`t: "His ilk", mystical threats, space slavers, assassins, mercenaries, etc.


mercenaries, assassins, random mooks, gangbosses that sort of thing. Bad people, but they are NOT Jokers. They don't have his bodycount by long shot nor his record of escaping justice through Arkham Asylum after arrest time and again, like the Joker.




> There`s no mixed message. An Anti-Hero is defined by how he views Justice and the use of lethal force. That`s the broad definition and there`s plenty of examples where he doesn`t go for the kill shot. Eternal is one such book where you can see this happening. He went plenty for wound shots only on whatever mooks until for example he encounters a factory of working children where he had clear intention of gunning slavers down.


Putting bullets in people and leaving them on the battlefield regardless of whether you shot them in the heart or brain can still result in their death. It's a constant probability that Jason accepts with all of his enemies and one he chooses to seek out despite being more then trained to do without the use of a gun. Jason IS a more realistic character for choosing firearms, yes. That goes out of the window again  when you pretend guns aren't actually dangerous even when you point them at people and pull the trigger.




> _Again_ there`s people he doesn`t lose sleep over. That`s nothing new. But this isn`t the reason he gets a level of trust, of which I already laid it out. After all, an anti hero will not have the shinning gleaming qualities of the conventional archetype but he requires to have heroic qualities to shoulder the bigger tragedy of character. Just so, why he gave JD the chance and after it backfires and taking down the Iron Rule he _breakes away from Roy_. This is development of character tragedy. Hence why at the start of Rebirth Batman keeps an eye on him again, because he fears Jason might go down the old path but he doesn`t. 
> 
> And that is why Batman gives him a lease of trust. 
> 
> _Lease_. Not card blanche. Don`t make the statement that isn`t there.


Yeah, there's people Jason doesn't lose sleep over killing, that's nothing new. And it does not have to be a case where there's documentation that no rehabilitation is possible or that no prison sentence will be dealt out by the law like Joker. Jason makes his own justice even with the smaller criminals. And Batman does not define that as being on the old path already. That Jason has to do more then kill criminals when he doesn't really need to to get Batman's attention is a problem for me.

----------


## Aioros22

> In the five year timeline, the first year was Dick Grayson being Robin, the next two was Jason's time as Robin. Then he died, then he trained with the League for year and then csme back insane. It's referenced in the first issue that he still tried to kill Divk several times, Tim makes mention that Jason still did terrible things to him. And we see that in the new version of Under the Hood, Jason does not stop short from killing Batman himself, Nightwing intervenes when Jason is looking batman down from a gunbarrel. Now forgiveness and understanding afterwards is one thing, but what wide spread reputation as reliable and unerring agent of justice do you imagine Jason built up already in that pretty short timespawn?


The five year timeline was supposed to compromisse alot of narratives that they didn`t want to let go of and is the reason it`s been dropped and expanded again. But I`m not saying his good reputation was widespread, I`m merely pointing out that by the time Superman comes in we`re already past his most violent arc as a character. It`s clear its those that are pointed out by Superman for coming for them but I don`t think anybody is saying how Superman was off base. He only recalls Jason as a young pup and now knows he`s done criminal things. 

But the reason _Batman_ does it is because Jason started a walking rogue but grew to be more. Batman didn`t give him the lease during the events of UTRH - which is where he is at his most violent, he gave it afterwards in a title that literally starts with Jason stating that "Batman" and "Joker" deserve each other and wants nothing from Gotham anymore. Obviously he gets pulled back on ocassion but that feeling alone already shows a distance from where he was some time ago. Jason isn`t exactly nice to kal which I disliked but as he tells him he`s a work in progress. It also shows that the same vouch from Batman comes from knowing about the good things the Outlaws have been doing, whether it`s widespread or not. 

Lodbell could have done more with bridging that up, yes. We have Tim telling Jason at the rooftop: "Yeah, you died and came back and your killer was out and that`s too much to emotionally compress so I get why you went hard on it", even here we see Jason takes upon him the consequences. He tells Tim he wasn`t "nice to him before", which implies they fought and that`s part the reason he also kept distance from them. So, what you have is someone who is aware and repents himself over what he does. This is also essential in getting why they give him the chance. Someone like Deathstroke would never do that. 




> mercenaries, assassins, random mooks, gangbosses that sort of thing. Bad people, but they are NOT Jokers. They don't have his bodycount by long shot nor his record of escaping justice through Arkham Asylum after arrest time and again, like the Joker.


How do you _know_ they don`t have a similar bodycount? They aren`t media friendly as the Joker and the vast majority wouldn`t go to AA anyhow. The Untitled agent that awoke, alone, killed the whole of the All Caste to start with and then civilians. The mission with Batman and the Superman family against Warworld had Earth in peril and the mission with Superman and Grayson was to shut down someone with clearly a bigger bodycount. 

Which random mooks are you thinking that aren`t part of those mercenary/space slavers/walking dead guilds?




> Putting bullets in people and leaving them on the battlefield regardless of whether you shot them in the heart or brain can still result in their death. It's a constant probability that Jason accepts with all of his enemies and one he chooses to seek out despite being more then trained to do without the use of a gun. Jason IS a more realistic character for choosing firearms, yes. That goes out of the window again  when you pretend guns aren't actually dangerous even when you point them at people and pull the trigger.


There`s nothing unrealistic about wound shots that don`t instantly kill you. I see no reason to mention how the probablity of dying of the same is real if not assisted when the point of doing is for exactly that same possibility to occur. In this genre of fiction, most people in that line of work have basic knowledge to stop wounds for getting worse before professional medical assistance or flat out have gear/abilities/armor that stops from making it fatal. True to the superhero world, most of the enemies he engages in do have those.

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## Aahz

> In the five year timeline, the first year was Dick Grayson being Robin, the next two was Jason's time as Robin. Then he died, then he trained with the League for year and then csme back insane. It's referenced in the first issue that he still tried to kill Divk several times, Tim makes mention that Jason still did terrible things to him.


In the five year timeline Dick imo Robin for 2 years and it is said that Jason was only Robin for few month.
And the first issues after flashpoint are in all cases a little bit problematic since the writers didn't really know at this point what was continuity and what wasn't, there were for example rreffernces to Dicks Titans in RHatO and TT, and only later it became canon that Tims Titans were the first.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> The five year timeline was supposed to compromisse alot of narratives that they didn`t want to let go of and is the reason it`s been dropped and expanded again. But I`m not saying his good reputation was widespread, I`m merely pointing out that by the time Superman comes in we`re already past his most violent arc as a character. It`s clear its those that are pointed out by Superman for coming for them but I don`t think anybody is saying how Superman was off base. He only recalls Jason as a young pup and now knows he`s done criminal things. 
> 
> But the reason _Batman_ does it is because Jason started a walking rogue but grew to be more. Batman didn`t give him the lease during the events of UTRH - which is where he is at his most violent, he gave it afterwards in a title that literally starts with Jason stating that "Batman" and "Joker" deserve each other and wants nothing from Gotham anymore. Obviously he gets pulled back on ocassion but that feeling alone already shows a distance from where he was some time ago. Jason isn`t exactly nice to kal which I disliked but as he tells him he`s a work in progress. It also shows that the same vouch from Batman comes from knowing about the good things the Outlaws have been doing, whether it`s widespread or not. 
> 
> Lodbell could have done more with bridging that up, yes. We have Tim telling Jason at the rooftop: "Yeah, you died and came back and your killer was out and that`s too much to emotionally compress so I get why you went hard on it", even here we see Jason takes upon him the consequences. He tells Tim he wasn`t "nice to him before", which implies they fought and that`s part the reason he also kept distance from them. So, what you have is someone who is aware and repents himself over what he does. This is also essential in getting why they give him the chance. Someone like Deathstroke would never do that.


Deathstroke _is_ aware that he screwed things up with his family too, and is also trying to make things different with them. He also tries to keep a distance. What he won't do, is give up that whole killing people thing which is why he and Batman will never see eye to eye. Unlike Jason who stops by for every crossover despite his killing.




> How do you _know_ they don`t have a similar bodycount? They aren`t media friendly as the Joker and the vast majority wouldn`t go to AA anyhow. The Untitled agent that awoke, alone, killed the whole of the All Caste to start with and then civilians. The mission with Batman and the Superman family against Warworld had Earth in peril and the mission with Superman and Grayson was to shut down someone with clearly a bigger bodycount. 
> 
> Which random mooks are you thinking that aren`t part of those mercenary/space slavers/walking dead guilds?


Because there are people left in Gotham. And yeah, a vast majority of them wouldn't go to AA, or any mental institution. Batman captured him and the legal system subsequently failed with the Joker time and again. Turned the people assigned to diagnose him into supervillains at least once. The people you are talking about the legal system hasn't even had a chance to fail yet. Equating all criminals to the Joker is misleading. And Suzie Sue's henchmen weren't space slavers or death guilds or whatnot. Nor the crew of submarine he sunk, killing every person on board, nor were neccesarily every person working at the prison Roy was sprung from or every person inside every tank. Point is, Jason doesn't know either. He reacts to threats, those threats turn  out to have men working for them, men who don't neccesarily eat babies and kill puppies themselves and Jason guns them down despite Batman having trained him to neutralise enemies non-lethally. And Batman can't argue with the results (the result being a lot of people dead). 




> There`s nothing unrealistic about wound shots that don`t instantly kill you.


I didn't say instantly. If by "no kill shots" you just mean they don't kill right that second and what happens to them afterwards is not Jason's problem then we are on the same page.

----------


## Aioros22

> Deathstroke _is_ aware that he screwed things up with his family too, and is also trying to make things different with them. He also tries to keep a distance. What he won't do, is give up that whole killing people thing which is why he and Batman will never see eye to eye. Unlike Jason who stops by for every crossover despite his killing


He never takes upon him the responsability of his actions, even those that include his family. That`s why they`re all about stabbing each other. True, they are the only people he gives a damn about but that`s it. He doesn`t try to change. He doesn`t listen. He will never see eye to eye with Batman because unlike Jason he`s not adaptable or willing.  

Even still, Deathstroke and Batman have worked together. Deathstroke and other heroes have worked together. He was the reigning general of all the heroes, Superman included, during "Invasion". 




> Because there are people left in Gotham


There`s people left in Gotham even with the Joker out. Without an audience he`s not "funny". 




> And yeah, a vast majority of them wouldn't go to AA, or any mental institution. Batman captured him and the legal system subsequently failed with the Joker time and again. Turned the people assigned to diagnose him into supervillains at least once. The people you are talking about the legal system hasn't even had a chance to fail yet. Equating all criminals to the Joker is misleading. And Suzie Sue's henchmen weren't space slavers or death guilds or whatnot. Nor the crew of submarine he sunk. killing every person on board, nor were neccesarily every person working at the prison Roy was sprung from or every person inside every tank. Point is, Jason doesn't know either. He reacts to threats, those threats turn out to have men working for them, men who don't neccesarily eat babies and kill puppies themselves and Jason guns them down despite Batman having trained him to neutralise enemies non-lethally. And Batman can't argue with the results (the result being a lot of people dead)


The legal system doesn`t have a chance to fail because it doesn`t even go there. Roy was a political prisioner thrown to the wolves by the very people he was trying to help in the middle of a war torn dictatorship hiring mercenaries. If Jason hadn`t shown up he would be dead. The sub was smugling _nuclear weapons_ to Miami. Some of those mercenaries didn`t looked half humans either (see first page ever of RATHO). 

Jason usually doesn`t just bark in without knowing what his targets are under Loedbell. Could he have disarmed them non-lethaly? Perhaps, but who would have vouched for Roy in that situation? Superman? The League? By the time they arrived they would have his corpse laid out somewhere because they would try the legal venues first. What if the bomb hit over the water surface closer to Miami? Who checks over these guys that swim under your radar? The League? No. The government? Again, legal venues first. Aquaman? Maybe the obvious answer but just like every threat in the skies not being stopped by Superman the same applies. It`s a big wide world with a even bigger wide ocean drop. 

Jason is supposed to embody a certain type of heroic+tragedy quality that uses fire with fire. It`s not supposed to be without argument of moral conduct or supposed to state "yeah, it`s cool to just shoot them!". He does it because he`s the necessary evil in situations where Law guidelines have proven time and again to fail. Batman sees a level of validity in someone targetting situations where he wouldn`t have the same mobility. 




> I didn't say instantly. If by "no kill shots" you just mean they don't kill right that second and what happens to them afterwards is not Jason's problem then we are on the same page


I`m meaning that in this sort of fiction not going for the kill shot means giving that person/situation a chance to live and back off.

Now, you don`t have to like it, sure enough. You don`t have to like that Batman is willing to adapt his lawful and moral stance whereas Jason is more about moral equity but it`s exactly why you don`t like him doing it that validates Jason as the necessary evil. Batman, in situations, won`t bend over enough from his moral stance upon legal matters and the result is: people he could have saved, will still die. Innocents will die. 

Me? I think that in terms of character study, it works that he`s aware he`s an outlaw himself. He won`t pass a breaking point but it works to me he`s aware that there`s someone he can trust and keep close by that _can_ because he came back from it. The end result is: more people die but more _innocents_ get to live.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> He never takes upon him the responsability of his actions, even those that include his family. That`s why they`re all about stabbing each other. True, they are the only people he gives a damn about but that`s it. He doesn`t try to change. He doesn`t listen. He will never see eye to eye with Batman because unlike Jason he`s not adaptable or willing.  
> 
> Even still, Deathstroke and Batman have worked together. Deathstroke and other heroes have worked together. He was the reigning general of all the heroes, Superman included, during "Invasion".


And I don't mind Batman encountering immediate big threats that make apprehending the likes of Deathstroke and Red Hood right then and there is secondary. But no amount of being a good family man will make Batman defend, facilitate and provide business for Deathstroke's day to day activities of solving the problems in front of him by shooting them dead.




> There`s people left in Gotham even with the Joker out. Without an audience he`s not "funny".


He massacred a entire floor of Gotham P.D. by himself. If every character that Jason has gone up against in Gotham did the same, there would be no Gotham P.D.. There is, because they don't. They are not as hard core as the Joker.




> The legal system doesn`t have a chance to fail because it doesn`t even go there. Roy was a political prisioner thrown to the wolves by the very people he was trying to help in the middle of a war torn dictatorship hiring mercenaries. If Jason hadn`t shown up he would be dead. The sub was smugling _nuclear weapons_ to Miami. Some of those mercenaries didn`t looked half humans either (see first page ever of RATHO). 
> 
> Jason usually doesn`t just bark in without knowing what his targets are under Loedbell. Could he have disarmed them non-lethaly? Perhaps, but who would have vouched for Roy in that situation? Superman? The League? By the time they arrived they would have his corpse laid out somewhere because they would try the legal venues first. What if the bomb hit over the water surface closer to Miami? Who checks over these guys that swim under your radar? The League? No. The government? Again, legal venues first. Aquaman? Maybe the obvious answer but just like every threat in the skies not being stopped by Superman the same applies. It`s a big wide world with a even bigger wide ocean drop. 
> 
> Jason is supposed to embody a certain type of heroic+tragedy quality that uses fire with fire. It`s not supposed to be without argument of moral conduct or supposed to state "yeah, it`s cool to just shoot them!". He does it because he`s the necessary evil in situations where Law guidelines have proven time and again to fail. Batman sees a level of validity in someone targetting situations where he wouldn`t have the same mobility.


Miami isn't some modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. It has authorities that Jason can hand criminals off too that won't just turn a blind eye on account of their attempts to smuggle nuclear weapons and in some cases perhaps not being entirely being human. What the procedure is can be debated but I don't see it as obviously worse then killing everyone. And no, there's little vouching to be done, but a attempt to free him without enacting a massacre could be attempted. Roy is one of the mercenaries that entered this conflict and overthrew the present regime. Either he's guilty or the new regime is to some degree just. Neither being the case I find difficult to defend. It's clearly more of a "Roy is one of us, they are not, so they can go" case. And I don't see Batman signing off on that stuff.




> Now, you don`t have to like it, sure enough. You don`t have to like that Batman is willing to adapt his lawful and moral stance whereas Jason is more about moral equity but it`s exactly why you don`t like him doing it that validates Jason as the necessary evil. Batman, in situations, won`t bend over enough from his moral stance upon legal matters and the result is: people he could have saved, will still die. Innocents will die. 
> 
> Me? I think that in terms of character study, it works that he`s aware he`s an outlaw himself. He won`t pass a breaking point but it works to me he`s aware that there`s someone he can trust and keep close by that _can_ because he came back from it. The end result is: more people die but more _innocents_ get to live.


Batman is as guilty of what he has Jason do as Jason's victims are of the things the people they work for do or what the victims order to be carried out. Batman shouldn't just work with Gordon, handing off the criminals he takes down to the police for arresting because he personally can't come back from the alternative. He should work with Gordon because he respects and believes in what he does. Every time he associates with and answers for Jason he proves he does not. I'm fine with Red Hood being more about moral equity. I don't like Batman being on board. He should not be flexible on that shooting people dead thing.

----------


## Mutant God

The only way Strange could of have known Batman's identity is if he known Bruce's obsession with bats so my opinion is that Hugo Strange was Bruce's child therapist after the death of his parents.

----------


## Carabas

> The only way Strange could of have known Batman's identity is if he known Bruce's obsession with bats...


Bruce has an obsession with bats now?

----------


## Mutant God

> Bruce has an obsession with bats now?


Unless I'm mixing several different universes/mediums up I thought Bruce had a fear of bats or at least Bruce notice the bats living under Wayne Manor sometimes as a kid.

----------


## Aioros22

> He massacred a entire floor of Gotham P.D. by himself. If every character that Jason has gone up against in Gotham did the same, there would be no Gotham P.D.. There is, because they don't. They are not as hard core as the Joker.


Vandal Savage has wiped entire cultures. 

The Untitled wiped out an entire Monestary plus civilians. 

Warworld brought to the ground entire worlds. 

Nuclear weapon smuggling is self explanatory. 

Whether most would find Joker more hardcore is irrelevant when it comes to body count. Some don`t care to enter the Gotham P.D and kill cops for fun. Some have other agendas that don`t make them the lesser danger. 




> *Miami isn't some modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. It has authorities that Jason can hand criminals off too that won't just turn a blind eye on account of their attempts to smuggle nuclear weapons and in some cases perhaps not being entirely being human.* What the procedure is can be debated but I don't see it as obviously worse then killing everyone. And no, there's little vouching to be done, but a attempt to free him without enacting a massacre could be attempted. Roy is one of the mercenaries that entered this conflict and overthrew the present regime. Either he's guilty or the new regime is to some degree just. Neither being the case I find difficult to defend. It's clearly more of a "Roy is one of us, they are not, so they can go" case. And I don't see Batman signing off on that stuff.



1) Most comic book autorithies that mirror ones from real life bring that realistic aspect to it. There`s entire runs of Check Mate and Suicide Squad dealing with those items. Political agendas exist. Bias exists. Governments exist. You have Batman who does the work the police should do on what lawful ground? It`s not just to help, he`s also made sure to be _better equipped_ than the Forces are to deal with this sort of thing. 

2) Except when it comes to Bronze Tiger, Catwoman, Deadhstroke..._Joker_. 




> Batman is as guilty of what he has Jason do as Jason's victims are of the things the people they work for do or what the victims order to be carried out. Batman shouldn't just work with Gordon, handing off the criminals he takes down to the police for arresting because he personally can't come back from the alternative. He should work with Gordon because he respects and believes in what he does. Every time he associates with and answers for Jason he proves he does not. I'm fine with Red Hood being more about moral equity. I don't like Batman being on board. He should not be flexible on that shooting people dead thing.


1) Batman is as guilty as the Joker everytime he tries to save his life knowing full well the later will never stop, will never repent and flat out does not care for anything else other than make others suffer. The court doesn`t work in his case and the alternative Batman offers doesn`t work either. 

2) I`m fine with Batman respecting the Law so long he doesn`t forget he`s a vigilante himself otherwise he will just come off as a hypocrite. He places himself above the law to bring justice, often times defying what Gordon or the Government will ask of him. Jason does the _same_ except to a different and more morally challenging degree. Deadthstroke and Joker do not, so I`m not okay with Batman siding with them. 

I _am_ okay with Batman siding with flexible people like himself who understand the consequences of their actions even if their morally differ, like Jason has (hence why he breaks away from Roy after failing to reform the Joker`s Daugther for example).

----------


## Carabas

> Unless I'm mixing several different universes/mediums up I thought Bruce had a fear of bats or at least Bruce notice the bats living under Wayne Manor sometimes as a kid.


And this is an obsession how exactly?

----------


## Mutant God

> And this is an obsession how exactly?


Well, at least in the Nolan movies, Bruce blames his fear of bats for making his parents leaving the theater early causing them to meet Chill and getting shot, or the bats living Wayne Manor keeping Bruce up at night would go down on his Strange's profile of him which would lead to modern day of Strange connecting Batman to Bruce. Maybe its not an obsession but its still a connection for Strange to guess Bruce Wayne is Batman and be his final answer.

----------


## batnbreakfast

I like the Miller bat better than Nolan's "I shall become a bat".
Mark of Zorro (movie theatre) is better than Die Fledermaus (opera), too.
I'd kill for an awesome Zorro reboot.

----------


## Agent Z

> Bruce has an obsession with bats now?


What would you call dressing up like one and basing the design of your equipment on them?

----------


## Godlike13

> What would you call dressing up like one and basing the design of your equipment on them?


A theme.
...

----------


## Agent Z

> A theme.
> ...


It's a theme because he's obsessed with them

----------


## Godlike13

Except we don't see him thinking about bats all the time or preoccuping much of his time with them. Crimefighting is his obsession, bats are just a theme.

----------


## The Kid

Normally don't like it when existing characters have major tenets changed about them. But revealing that Batman is bisexual imo works better than that reveal for just about any other character. Considering he has about as much historical subtext there as Wonder Woman and her bisexuality recently got canonized. Don't think DC will ever go there though

----------


## Frontier

> What would you call dressing up like one and basing the design of your equipment on them?


It depends on which Bruce Wayne we're talking about.

There's a Bruce Wayne who did it because he thought the bat was the perfect symbol to use in his war on crime. 

There's a Bruce Wayne who had a traumatic experience with bats that led him to channel that fear into fighting crime and inspiring fear in criminals. 

But I don't think he's obsessed with them like Joker is jokes, Riddler is riddles, or Two-Face is duality.

----------


## Mutant God

> It depends on which Bruce Wayne we're talking about.
> 
> There's a Bruce Wayne who did it because he thought the bat was the perfect symbol to use in his war on crime. 
> 
> There's a Bruce Wayne who had a traumatic experience with bats *that led him to channel that fear into* fighting crime and *inspiring fear* in criminals. 
> 
> But I don't think he's obsessed with them like *Joker* is jokes, Riddler is riddles, or Two-Face is duality.


Actually speaking of that, not really an opinion just an hilarious thought, in the same universe as Batman was afraid of bats I think it would be funny if Joker had a fear of clowns that resulted him using it to spread crime and fear lol.

----------


## Carabas

Or if he'd been afraid of spiders... Marvel would be crippled.

----------


## WonderScott

I'm way more into the moniker Black Bat than Orphan. 

Flamebird (ugh, not Hawkfire) should appear more regularly. 

The huge Batcast of sidekicks adds more to Gotham than takes away from it. 

Renee Montoya should return to being The Question. 

She's not my favorite, but I liked Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle.

----------


## WonderScott

Ubu doesn't get enough credit for having one of the hardest jobs in comics.

----------


## oasis1313

> Renee Montoya should return to being The Question.


Vic Sage should return to being The Question.

----------


## millernumber1

> Vic Sage should return to being The Question.


There should be TWO QUESTIONS!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I'm way more into the moniker Black Bat than Orphan.


Not too controversial. I don't think ANYONE except for Tynion likes the Orphan name. Black Bat isn't an option for legal reasons, but there are plenty of other great options. I was okay with it when it seemed like it would be dropped after League of Shadows...but then it wasn't. 




> Flamebird (ugh, not Hawkfire) should appear more regularly.


Agreed.




> The huge Batcast of sidekicks adds more to Gotham than takes away from it. 
> 
> Renee Montoya should return to being The Question.


Agreed to the Nth degree. 

I wouldn't object to Vic working alongside Renee as "The Questions" since their dynamic in 52 was incredible, but I really want Renee back in the role.

----------


## Frontier

I prefer Renee as a cop then I do as the Question, and that's just setting aside my feelings for Vic Sage. 

Also, Vanessa Marshall was completely miscast as Renee in _Batman: Bad Blood_. She would make a terrific Batwoman though. 

And a voice modulator is no substitute for a good Batman voice.

----------


## millernumber1

> And a voice modulator is no substitute for a good Batman voice.


But I think Bale's Batman voice was pretty good.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> But I think Bale's Batman voice was pretty good.


Well, let's agree to disagree there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I think his voice in _Begins_ was fine, personally. It's when it started getting ramped up in the sequels...

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, let's agree to disagree there .
> 
> I think his voice in _Begins_ was fine, personally. It's when it started getting ramped up in the sequels...


Well, Begins is my favorite of the three.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I prefer Renee as a cop then I do as the Question, and that's just setting aside my feelings for Vic Sage.


Understandable, but Renee really got screwed out of the role in the first place. Her storyline in 52 was building up to it, she got the excellent Pipeline storyline...and that was it, save for a cameo here and there. 

Plus, _Gotham Central_ is fantastic, but unless a book/story made today addressed how most American cops are horrid, and all the reasons why, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any storyline where cops are portrayed as "heroes" or "the good guys."

----------


## Assam

> Well, Begins is my favorite of the three.


Mine too. As this point, I think of it as the only good movie in the Nolan trilogy, Dark Knight only have Joker as its saving grace, and Rises being one of the worst superhero movies of the 21st Century. Even then, Begins doesn't hold a candle to something like Mask of the Phantasm.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Understandable, but Renee really got screwed out of the role in the first place. Her storyline in 52 was building up to it, she got the excellent Pipeline storyline...and that was it, save for a cameo here and there. 
> 
> Plus, _Gotham Central_ is fantastic, but unless a book/story made today addressed how most American cops are horrid, and all the reasons why, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any storyline where cops are portrayed as "heroes" or "the good guys."


She never did anything to get screwed out of it in the first place, she just kept popping up in others books as Question and then Rucka bailed and that was the end. Never understood Rucka's obsession with taking these normals and making them major DCU characters. Renee as Question, Crispus as Spectre,  Sasha as Checkmate leader/Black Queen. The universe just made things right as they should be.

----------


## millernumber1

> Mine too. As this point, I think of it as the only good movie in the Nolan trilogy, Dark Knight only have Joker as its saving grace, and Rises being one of the worst superhero movies of the 21st Century. Even then, Begins doesn't hold a candle to something like Mask of the Phantasm.


I would agree it's the only good movie of the three, but I really enjoy the Batman/Catwoman parts of Rises. It's really silly, and the nuke at the end makes me so mad, but that's the Batman with another themed character fighting side by side I wanted so desperately.

----------


## darkseidpwns

TDK and TDKR are both listed in AFI top 10 films of their respective years and made more money than Begins and have a higher critical rating across the board and that's just the start.

----------


## Assam

> TDK and TDKR are both listed in AFI top 10 films of their respective years and made more money than Begins and have a higher critical rating across the board and that's just the start.


And your point is, what, exactly? Sales do not equal quality, and a critic's opinion on a film is really no more valid than anyone else's.

People have different opinions on these things.

----------


## Frontier

> Well, Begins is my favorite of the three.


I enjoy the other movies, but sometimes I feel this way too  :Smile: .

----------


## darkseidpwns

> And your point is, what, exactly? Sales do not equal quality, and a critic's opinion on a film is really no more valid than anyone else's.
> 
> People have different opinions on these things.


Sounds less like having a different opinion an awful lot like "muh opinion is more valid than that of everyone else".

Either way, they made butt loads of money back to back without 3D, without TDK getting a release in China and TDKR having to suffer through a tragic event. So clearly a lot of people liked them and if all those reviewers whose job is to rate these movies think they're good then there's your proxy for quality.

But ofcourse dismiss the commercial success with " it doesn't equal quality" and dismiss the quality indicator because "they're not really valid", so unless you can come up with a third tool or variable yourself you cant really make naked statements like those. Either that or you go around banging peoples front doors  demanding them to rate TDK and TDKR, should only take you years.

----------


## Assam

> Sounds less like having a different opinion an awful lot like "muh opinion is more valid than that of everyone else".
> 
> Either way, they made butt loads of money back to back without 3D, without TDK getting a release in China and TDKR having to suffer through a tragic event. So clearly a lot of people liked them and if all those reviewers whose job is to rate these movies think they're good then there's your proxy for quality.
> 
> But ofcourse dismiss the commercial success with " it doesn't equal quality" and dismiss the quality indicator because "they're not really valid", so unless you can come up with a third tool or variable yourself you cant really make naked statements like those. Either that or you go around banging peoples front doors  demanding them to rate TDK and TDKR, should only take you years.


What is your problem? I said that I believe Batman Begins to be the only good movie in the Nolan Trilogy, look back at my wording, I wasn't _at all_ trying to pass my opinion off as fact. I'm not blind to the consensus; I KNOW a lot of people love the other two movies. 

Instead of responding to my post asking WHY I thought BB was better, or what my problems with the other movies were, your response was to try and invalidate my opinion. People have accused me of this before, but sometimes I think you just like to argue.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> What is your problem? I said that I believe Batman Begins to be the only good movie in the Nolan Trilogy, look back at my wording, I wasn't _at all_ trying to pass my opinion off as fact. I'm not blind to the consensus; I KNOW a lot of people love the other two movies. 
> 
> Instead of responding to my post asking WHY I thought BB was better, or what my problems with the other movies were, your response was to try and invalidate my opinion. People have accused me of this before, but sometimes I think you just like to argue.


And if you look back I didn't actually directly respond to you, I merely inserted a fact check to which you responded by dismissing both fans and critics. Its not like I directly addressed your post and told you that you're wrong. It was then you who chose to utterly twist and disregard the facts and assert supremacy of your opinion.

----------


## Assam

> And if you look back I didn't actually directly respond to you, I merely inserted a fact check to which you responded by dismissing both fans and critics. Its not like I directly addressed your post and told you that you're wrong. It was then you who chose to utterly twist and disregard the facts and assert supremacy of your opinion.


I really don't know how you construed this: 




> And your point is, what, exactly? Sales do not equal quality, and a critic's opinion on a film is really no more valid than anyone else's.
> 
> People have different opinions on these things.


as a dismissal of the opinions of fans, or the assertion of "supremacy" of my own. Yes, I "dismissed" critics, but that's because I feel their opinion is just as valid as any given fan.

Let's just stop this. We both know by now that most of our conversations go nowhere constructive.

----------


## Pohzee

> Plus, _Gotham Central_ is fantastic, but unless a book/story made today addressed how *most American cops are horrid*, and all the reasons why, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any storyline where cops are portrayed as "heroes" or "the good guys."


Lol, dial it back a little Lonnie Machin.

----------


## Assam

> Lol, dial it back a little Lonnie Machin.


Funny you say that since as far as fictional characters go, Lonnie Machin is one of my personal heroes, and every time a hack writer tries to portray him as a straight up villain, it feels like shards of glass are being pushed down my throat. Sure, a few of the facts spouted in his original mini aren't exactly 100% true, but I still believe in the philosophies wholeheartedly, and many of the points he brought up about the world _are_ true.

----------


## WonderScott

> I would agree it's the only good movie of the three, but I really enjoy the Batman/Catwoman parts of Rises. It's really silly, and the nuke at the end makes me so mad, but that's the Batman with another themed character fighting side by side I wanted so desperately.


This. The Bat and the Cat fighting alongside one another makes the movie.

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## millernumber1

> This. The Bat and the Cat fighting alongside one another makes the movie.


Aw, yeah.

Another controversial Batfamily opinion (at least, from what I can tell) - I really liked the art during the early 2000s before Jim Lee and Hush shifted things - Shawn Martinborough, Scott McDaniel, Trevor McCarthy, Steve Lieber, Damion Scott, Rick Burchett - it was cartoony, but I love clean lines and appealing designs, and it all meshed well while still having unique artistic qualities.

----------


## KC

I loved Zero Year and I like that it is Batman's current origin story.

----------


## WonderScott

Helena Wayne > Damian Wayne 

::ducks for cover::

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## dietrich

> Helena Wayne > Damian Wayne 
> 
> ::ducks for cover::


No need to duck for cover it's a controversial opinions thread after all.

----------


## bretmaverick2

There are various artist that I enjoyed on Batman / Detective that it seems many don't have a real fondness for:

Don Newton
Scott McDaniel
Kelley Jones
Jim Aparo ( I guess folks don't appreciate the over expressive co)
Gene Colan

I also wish that back in the day we could have had a Man-Bat series with Gene Colan doing the artwork. I would say it should be written by Marv Wolfman but I think there would have been too many unfair comparisons to Tomb Of Dracula.

----------


## bretmaverick2

(((Plus, _Gotham Central_ is fantastic, but unless a book/story made today addressed how most American cops are horrid, and all the reasons why, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any storyline where cops are portrayed as "heroes" or "the good guys.")))

How small minded are you?  The THOUSANDS of good law enforcement officers that are out there risking their lives day and night FAR outnumber the bad officers.  I don't know what world you live in but I live in a world where the good officers far outnumber the bad.  I'm not defending the bad, not at all. But I will stand up for the good all day long.

----------


## Assam

> How small minded are you?  The THOUSANDS of good law enforcement officers that are out there risking their lives day and night FAR outnumber the bad officers.  I don't know what world you live in but I live in a world where the good officers far outnumber the bad.  I'm not defending the bad, not at all. But I will stand up for the good all day long.


The number of cops who murder innocent people and get away with it are not the majority, no. But who _are_ the majority are the cops who stand by their fellow officers who've committed monstrous acts, and who continue to enforce unjust laws. 

The cops I have the most respect for are the ones who, during the Dakota Access Pipeline protests, chose to resign instead of continue to partake in the atrocities the authorities were committing. 

I only brought up what I did as it related to comics. Let's not make a whole political debate out of this.

----------


## bretmaverick2

> ....and who continue to enforce unjust laws.


it's not their job to decide what laws to enforce or not.  Their job is to enforce the laws On the books and keep people safe. 

And, FYI, you made it a whole big police thing with your broad, sweeping generalizations that can't be supported by facts.

----------


## Assam

> it's not their job to decide what laws to enforce or not.  Their job is to enforce the laws On the books and keep people safe.


I don't make the rules. I just enforce them. Blindly and without question.  :Mad:  Would you excuse the actions of the members any other oppressive force because they were "Just following orders?" 




> And, FYI, you made it a whole big police thing with your broad, sweeping generalizations that can't be supported by facts.


Exactly what generalizations did I make, and what did I say that can't be supported by facts? 

I also can't help but notice you'd didn't refute my other arguments. 

If you'd like to continue this conversation, even though it seems pretty clear neither of us is going to convince the other of anything, PM me. We don't need to derail the thread.

----------


## TheSupernaut

Bruce and Helena(Bertinelli) should have given it a go pre-flashpoint.

----------


## rev516

I like that idea ^.

----------


## TheSupernaut

> I like that idea ^.


^I like you.

----------


## batnbreakfast

It be nice to see some influence from Lego Batman movie on future writers and issues. For me the movie was a tad too long and some scenes were too busy but seeing thousands of ideas compressed in one small movie was pretty much *awesome*. It wouldn't hurt Bruce's character too much writing him like a thrillseeker who enjoys what he does once in a while.

----------


## dancj

> It wouldn't hurt Bruce's character too much writing him like a thrillseeker who enjoys what he does once in a while.


That's one element from The Dark Knight Returns which never seemed to make it back to regular continuity.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> That's one element from The Dark Knight Returns which never seemed to make it back to regular continuity.


Now, that you've mentioned it... during Morrison's last run he sometimes seemed to enjoy it (not on a LEGO level but... yeah), Snyder's awesome "BINGO" moment during Court of Owls and maybe even in that Joe Casey Mini (Imperfect???)

----------


## reni344

I hate the Batman Beyond comics universe. :Mad:

----------


## RedQueen

some people are too focused on the shipping aspects of the characters.

----------


## Darkseid Is

Christian Bale's voice never bothered me in the Nolan movies. Even after people pointed it out and I re-watched them it never bothered me.

Any type of costume that has too much armor or too much tech just looks like crap. I understand they try to make it look more realistic or extreme or whatever and the Dark Knight Returns/Batman V. Superman armor is alright considering it's temporary but when I look at the Injustice costume I cringe. The character didn't get this popular being Iron Man he got this popular being Batman.

I never liked Jason Todd after he came back from the dead. I was actually surprised to find out a lot of people really like him.

I think Bane is really interesting and I think they should have done a story where he takes over for Batman at some point. Maybe for the One Year Later storyline. I don't remember much about the Batman One Year Later stuff but I think it could have been really interesting.

----------


## Assam

> I never liked Jason Todd after he came back from the dead. I was actually surprised to find out a lot of people really like him.


If you're not reading it, or haven't tried it, check out the current RHatO book. Up until Rebirth, I was very firmly in the Jason should have stayed dead camp as I felt nothing good had been done with the character in the comics since his return, but Rebirth has been really good for him. 




> I think Bane is really interesting and I think they should have done a story where he takes over for Batman at some point. Maybe for the One Year Later storyline. I don't remember much about the Batman One Year Later stuff but I think it could have been really interesting.


This has actually happened a couple times. 

In Gail Simone's Secret Six, while neither put on a Bat suit or anything, we did get an enjoyable one-issue romp where Bane and Catman try to fill in as heroes while Batman was gone. (With Ragdoll wanting to be Robin) Like the entire run, it was pretty great. 

Bane actually DID put on a Batsuit during the events of Forever Evil, but I didn't read that, so I can't tell you how it turned out.

----------


## Darkseid Is

> If you're not reading it, or haven't tried it, check out the current RHatO book. Up until Rebirth, I was very firmly in the Jason should have stayed dead camp as I felt nothing good had been done with the character in the comics since his return, but Rebirth has been really good for him. 
> 
> 
> 
> This has actually happened a couple times. 
> 
> In Gail Simone's Secret Six, while neither put on a Bat suit or anything, we did get an enjoyable one-issue romp where Bane and Catman try to fill in as heroes while Batman was gone. (With Ragdoll wanting to be Robin) Like the entire run, it was pretty great. 
> 
> Bane actually DID put on a Batsuit during the events of Forever Evil, but I didn't read that, so I can't tell you how it turned out.


I haven't got around to Forever Evil but I always thought that would be a pretty cool idea. The man who once tried to destroy Batman in an act of redemption tries to carry the torch.

----------


## darkseidpwns

It wasn't an act of redemption though, more like a tactical maneuver.

----------


## adrikito

> I hate the Batman Beyond comics universe.


The same But... I hate THE CURRENT Batman Beyond comics universe... I want the old.

----------


## reni344

> The same But... I hate THE CURRENT Batman Beyond comics universe... I want the old.


I was fine with the Batman Beyond Universe until the Bruce/Barbara baby storyline I hate the idea that this is the thing that breaks up the batfamily and causes Dick to leave. The whole thing felt gross to me.

----------


## Aioros22

> Christian Bale's voice never bothered me in the Nolan movies. Even after people pointed it out and I re-watched them it never bothered me.
> 
>  Any type of costume that has too much armor or too much tech just looks like crap. I understand they try to make it look more realistic or extreme or whatever and the Dark Knight Returns/Batman V. Superman armor is alright considering it's temporary but when I look at the Injustice costume I cringe. The character didn't get this popular being Iron Man he got this popular being Batman.
> 
>  I never liked Jason Todd after he came back from the dead. _I was actually surprised to find out a lot of people really like him._
> 
>  I think Bane is really interesting and I think they should have done a story where he takes over for Batman at some point. Maybe for the One Year Later storyline. I don't remember much about the Batman One Year Later stuff but I think it could have been really interesting.


We. Are. _Everywhere_

----------


## TheJudge95

Superheavy was a better arc than the Court of Owls. Batman 48-49 impacted me a lot more than seeing Batman get his ass kicked and the introduction of the Illuminati to the Batman mythology.

----------


## phantom1592

> The same But... I hate THE CURRENT Batman Beyond comics universe... I want the old.



I'm in that weird paradoxey realm where I really Hate the Batman Beyond universe... but actually liked the show. I thought Terry made a really cool Nightwing/Robin (Never REALLY Batman) and Old Bruce training and mentoring was awesome... but the art style and the heavy computerize future design... was always really 'meh' to me. Too Tron-lite for my tastes. I couldn't buy that as 'the future'.  Characters and story? Those were pretty sweet.

----------


## WalterO5james

> I was fine with the Batman Beyond Universe until the Bruce/Barbara baby storyline I hate the idea that this is the thing that breaks up the batfamily and causes Dick to leave. The whole thing felt gross to me.


Pal, you Ain't the only one

----------


## WalterO5james

> Helena Wayne > Damian Wayne 
> 
> ::ducks for cover::


Don't be ridiculous, almost everyone's better than Damian

----------


## WontonGirl

I am STILL stuck on Dick Grayson being the only Robin for Batman. All others are just "after Jasons"...._*__runs for cover*_

----------


## millernumber1

> Superheavy was a better arc than the Court of Owls. Batman 48-49 impacted me a lot more than seeing Batman get his ass kicked and the introduction of the Illuminati to the Batman mythology.


Interesting! What about those issues was more powerful to you? I tend to agree the Court is overhyped, but I think the first trade was really effective and creepy, if way too drawn out and incredibly unsatisfying as a conclusion.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Christian Bale's voice never bothered me in the Nolan movies. Even after people pointed it out and I re-watched them it never bothered me.
> 
> Any type of costume that has too much armor or too much tech just looks like crap. I understand they try to make it look more realistic or extreme or whatever and the Dark Knight Returns/Batman V. Superman armor is alright considering it's temporary but when I look at the Injustice costume I cringe. The character didn't get this popular being Iron Man he got this popular being Batman.
> 
> I never liked Jason Todd after he came back from the dead. I was actually surprised to find out a lot of people really like him.
> 
> I think Bane is really interesting and I think they should have done a story where he takes over for Batman at some point. Maybe for the One Year Later storyline. I don't remember much about the Batman One Year Later stuff but I think it could have been really interesting.


Are you me? Wait... checking... Nope. Probably not. Brother from another mother?

----------


## Chubistian

I found Death in the family to be pretty average. Too many coincidences plaguing the story and not in a "poetic" way as in "Jason Todd was destinied to die", more as in forced ones, from Jason founding his birth certificate with only an S on his mother's name, to Bruce and Jason's path crossing in every possible way, and let's not talk about Joker going to meet Jason's mother, even though I've always liked the panel of Joker going out of her tent. Also, I think politically it's too much propagandistic, specially considering other works from Starlin on Batman, as Ten Nights of the Beast or The Cult, that depicted political plots in a much more clever way imo (I'm not from the US, but I've never discussed to other people if they get the same impression). I'm not saying that I hate it, it's has some very strong moments, but it's not as espectacular as other classic Batman stories and I wouldn't recommend it except for his importance in the history of the character

----------


## Lorendiac

> I found Death in the family to be pretty average. Too many coincidences plaguing the story and not in a "poetic" way as in "Jason Todd was destinied to die", more as in forced ones, from Jason founding his birth certificate with only an S on his mother's name, to Bruce and Jason's path crossing in every possible way, and let's not talk about Joker going to meet Jason's mother, even though I've always liked the panel of Joker going out of her tent.


Looking back, I see that three years ago, when I offered some Controversial Opinions of my own in this thread, one was this:




> 4. Jim Starlin's "A Death in the Family" was one of the most clumsily-plotted "epic Batman story arcs" that the world has ever endured. (Which is really saying something!)


I didn't go into as much detail as you did, but you're covering some of the same points that I had in mind. I'll add one embellishment, though.

My main complaint about the "birth certificate clue" was not just that only the first letter of the biological mother's first name was still legible. It was that Jason didn't realize all he had to do was run down to City Hall and pay a few bucks for a fresh copy of his official birth certificate, and then he'd get to see the woman's name spelled out for him! 

In other words: Once upon a time, I needed some extra copies of my birth certificate. It wasn't hard to arrange. Because when government agencies issue a birth certificate, they don't give the one-and-only copy to the parents of the newborn child, and then forget all about it. They also file one or more copies in their own archives, for future use. 

Jason's birth certificate had been issued right there in Gotham City, and Batman is supposed to have taught him all about detective work, which would naturally include tracing people's histories through public records. So why couldn't Jason take an hour to run downtown and get a fresh copy, instead of running halfway around the world to start interviewing every woman his father ever knew who had "S" as her first initial? 

(The answer, of course, is because Jim Starlin desperately wanted Jason to run over to the Middle East and then Ethiopia, so he stacked the deck that way without caring if it made any sense.)

----------


## WonderScott

Anne Hathaway was a decent Selina Kyle. ::ducks for cover::

IMG_0077.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

Would his real mother`s name be on his birth certificate if she wasn`t there when he was born?

----------


## millernumber1

> anne hathaway was a decent selina kyle. ::ducks for cover::
> 
> Attachment 52390


i agree!  :Smile:

----------


## Darkseid Is

I can understand why people wouldn't like Death in the Family or find it overrated but I just thought it was so ridiculous with the diplomatic immunity stuff with the Joker, it just made it so much fun to me. Combine that with the brutality of the death of Robin and you have one of the most bizarre stories I've ever read. I love it.

----------


## EMarie

> Once upon a time, I needed some extra copies of my birth certificate. It wasn't hard to arrange. Because when government agencies issue a birth certificate, they don't give the one-and-only copy to the parents of the newborn child, and then forget all about it. They also file one or more copies in their own archives, for future use. 
> 
> Jason's birth certificate had been issued right there in Gotham City, and Batman is supposed to have taught him all about detective work, which would naturally include tracing people's histories through public records. So why couldn't Jason take an hour to run downtown and get a fresh copy, instead of running halfway around the world to start interviewing every woman his father ever knew who had "S" as her first initial?


I can believe Jason wasn't in the emotional state to use common sense. It's still bad writing but this is the same story that Bruce tells Alfred that Jason was acting like someone looking to die. Though Bruce ignored that fact to chase Joker instead of calling the JLI, which is ironic since diplomatic immunity screwed him over so much during this period. 

Anyway what I don't get with the birth certificate? The fact that BRUCE doesn't know who Jason's birth mother is. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't a legal guardian have a copy of his birth certificate? I find it even more unbelievable that Bruce wouldn't know since he looked up Jason's family history before he became Robin. He found out about Catherine and knew about Willi working with Two-Face yet I'm supposed to believe Bruce had no idea who the birth mother was?

The same story also tries to make use believe that Willis Todd had Lady Shiva in his little black book? It never even explains how he knows these women.



> Would his real mother`s name be on his birth certificate if she wasn`t there when he was born?


What? How would that happen?

----------


## Carabas

> Would his real mother`s name be on his birth certificate if she wasn`t there when he was born?


You may want to reread your question and think about it for a while, and the answer will come to you.

----------


## dancj

> Anne Hathaway was a decent Selina Kyle. ::ducks for cover::


She was fine. Michelle Pfeiffer on the other hand, I thought was terrible.

----------


## dancj

> I found Death in the family to be pretty average.


You're being kind there.

----------


## Agent Z

If you believe that Jason Todd should have stayed dead then by your logic, no teen heroes or sidekicks should have been made or allowed to continue after Death in the Family.

----------


## Pohzee

Bruce/Babs is so fucked up and so soapy that it could almost be interesting.  :EEK!:

----------


## Shadowcat

Wein, Conway, and Moench’s Bronze Age Batman runs were better than everything that came after the Crisis.

----------


## TheDukeOfTheCosmos

Not sure if it's unpopular, but I like Dick Grayson much more as Nightwing than Robin.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Wein, Conway, and Moenchs Bronze Age Batman runs were better than everything that came after the Crisis.


Those were some really great runs. One of the best eras.

Ill follow that up with the opinion that Moench is the most underrated Batman writer.

----------


## Gurz

Ok, i will go nuts  :Big Grin: 

Kill all the brats in the most brutal of ways, Lone wolf Batman all the way !  :Big Grin:

----------


## Pohzee

> Ok, i will go nuts 
> 
> Kill all the brats in the most brutal of ways, Lone wolf Batman all the way !


Interesting sig then.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Wein, Conway, and Moench’s Bronze Age Batman runs were better than everything that came after the Crisis.


I wouldn't say better than EVERYTHING after Crisis, but I do prefer the Bronze Age, yeah. I'd add Englehart/Rogers to that list. 




> If you believe that Jason Todd should have stayed dead then by your logic, no teen heroes or sidekicks should have been made or allowed to continue after Death in the Family.


I actually think that should have been the case, because it makes the heroes look irresponsible otherwise. Or better yet, never kill off Jason in the first place and allow audiences to continue suspending their disbelief with teen sidekicks being a good idea. It sucked the fun out of things, casts a pall over everything that came before and after, and gives Bruce dead kid baggage to angst about. No thank you.

----------


## Mutant God

> Ok, i will go nuts 
> 
> Kill all the brats in the most brutal of ways, Lone wolf Batman all the way !


I agree just to show how dangerous Batman's villains both major and minor are (and you could reverse it by having Batman forced Superman into rotating the planet by a day lol)

----------


## Mataza

> I actually think that should have been the case, because it makes the heroes look irresponsible otherwise. Or better yet, never kill off Jason in the first place and allow audiences to continue suspending their disbelief with teen sidekicks being a good idea. It sucked the fun out of things, casts a pall over everything that came before and after, and gives Bruce dead kid baggage to angst about. No thank you.


I agree, would have never killed Jason. But i also would have never had Jason kill in the first place. That to me is the moment the character was fucked, the crowbar was just a formality.

----------


## oasis1313

If Jason had been given the rollout and promotion Tim got at his debut, the character wouldn't have been considered a "failure."  I'm so glad he's coming into his own now; he deserves it after decades of raw deals at DC.

----------


## Mia

Damien needs to be killed off or at least his true parentage needs to be revealed that he's not Bruce's biological son. I know that it will tarnish the character of Talia. But the horse has already left the barn on that one thanks to Grant Morrison. Batwoman is nothing but a shoehorned PC/SJW character, there was no reason for her to be added. Since Selina's friend Holly already checked the LGBTQ box. Further I find her origin a turn off, She's an irresponsible teenage woman. At least Holly admitted her mistakes and chose to grow. Chuck Dixon needs to be brought back to write Nightwing. Ditto for Greg Rucka on Batman. No writer should be able to write Batman without filling out a questionnaire about who they think Batman is. Batman is not a one dimensional angry thug  who throws in the towel at the slightest sign of adversity and looses his **** when some woman dumps him. He's a self made, focused, brilliant strategist and renaissance man who has a zest for life. He is not a burnt out middle aged man with failed dreams.

----------


## Caivu

> Batwoman is nothing but a shoehorned PC/SJW character, there was no reason for her to be added.


That is completely wrong in every single sense.




> Since Selina's friend Holly already checked the LGBTQ box.


Because multiple LGBT+ characters is just unrealistic, right?




> Further I find her origin a turn off, She's an irresponsible teenage woman. At least Holly admitted her mistakes and chose to grow.


I don't think you've read much Batwoman if you think this is true. Kate has absolutely grown from her prior irresponsibility.

----------


## Vinsanity

I would love to see Kate do more with the wider DCverse. There is so much potential for the character with her origin, learnings and stuff.

----------


## Mia

> That is completely wrong in every single sense.
> .


She isn't a shoehorned?

Let's see, Kate gets herself kicked out of WP by publicly making out with her girlfriend during the entire 'don't ask don't tell' era of the US military. Did she not think anyone was going to see her? She's supposed to be an officer in the military, is she going to make those kind of reckless decisions and get her people killed?

Also she must have known that she would have to graduate from  USMA and do her military obligations or else she would have to pay the government. for the full four years. Who would  have to re-fund the money to the US government if she didn't graduate and full fill her military obligations. The last I heard it's at least half a million dollars dollars to sen she expect would pay back the government?Her family. That's not the behaviour of responsible adult. That's a woman child...and not at all heroic. At least Holly made no excuses for her drug taking.

Also she claims that she wants to serve. But we're supposed to believe that becoming a superhero is the only option she had. Kate could easily have finished her degree and joined the FBI or the CIA or joined some other law enforcement agency. That's why I say that she's  nothing but a shoehorned SJW/PC character. Bruce became Batman because he found that there were things that the cops couldn't do and if he joined the FBI he would have to go where the agency sent him.

----------


## Caivu

> Let's see, Kate gets herself kicked out of WP by publicly making out with her girlfriend during the entire 'don't ask don't tell' era of the US military. Did she not think anyone was going to see her?


Yes...? Or else she wouldn't have kissed her. It was evening, in a private-ish area of the campus, during a weekend when many cadets were going home to visit. 

Plus, we don't know the specifics of the accusation brought up against her. 




> She's supposed to be an officer in the military, is she going to make those kind of reckless decisions and get her people killed?


Gasp. A 20-year-old makes a risky decision. Stop the presses.   :Stick Out Tongue: 
And this situation is in no way comparable to making life-or-death decisions on a battlefield. Seriously?




> she must have known that she would have to graduate from  USMA and do her military obligations or else she would have to pay the government. for the full four years. Who would  have to re-fund the money to the US government if she didn't graduate and full fill her military obligations. The last I heard it's at least half a million dollars dollars to sen she expect would pay back the government?Her family. That's not the behaviour of responsible adult. That's a woman child...and not at all heroic.


It absolutely _is_ heroic. Kate's decision to resign, rather than lie and take the easy way out, prevented a larger investigation that would have outed not only her but Sophie and any other LGBT cadets. That's why she asks BTO Reyes if she was the only one under suspicion.

And yeah, she would have to repay the Academy, that's true. But as Jacob said to her, her decision let her keep her integrity. That's worth way more than a measley half a mil. It's worth, to Kate, even more than her very future. 




> Also she claims that she wants to serve. But we're supposed to believe that becoming a superhero is the only option she had. Kate could easily have finished her degree and joined the FBI or the CIA or joined some other law enforcement agency.


It _was_ the only option she had. She tried to finish her degree, but military service had been her only dream, and having that suddenly gone sent her on a fast downward spiral.




> That's why I say that she's  nothing but a shoehorned SJW/PC character. Bruce became Batman because he found that there were things that the cops couldn't do and if he joined the FBI he would have to go where the agency sent him.


I don't follow your logic of how that's supposed to make Kate shoehorned or SJW/PC. What do Bruce's motives have anything to do with this?

----------


## Jackalope89

Dick is a better head of the Bat Family than Bruce.

Trying to call Batman, and Gotham in general, more "grounded" than other parts of the DC Universe is bull. Super zombies, a woman that can control most plant life out there, a mud man that can grow as big as a kaiju that is immune to most ways of being neutralized, a vigilante that can supposedly beat anyone with prep time... Yeah.

Bruce's moments of being a good family person are badly outnumbered by him being pretty bad at being a family person.

----------


## Jcady59

> Dick is a better head of the Bat Family than Bruce.
> 
> Trying to call Batman, and Gotham in general, more "grounded" than other parts of the DC Universe is bull. Super zombies, a woman that can control most plant life out there, a mud man that can grow as big as a kaiju that is immune to most ways of being neutralized, a vigilante that can supposedly beat anyone with prep time... Yeah.
> 
> Bruce's moments of being a good family person are badly outnumbered by him being pretty bad at being a family person.


I agree with the second but not with 1 and 3. Neither Dick or Bruce are particularly good heads of the bat family, and Bruce has only been written to be a bad family person within the last 10-15 years but there are still 65-70 years of Bruce being good that drowns it out.

----------


## king81992

> Dick is a better head of the Bat Family than Bruce.
> 
> Trying to call Batman, and Gotham in general, more "grounded" than other parts of the DC Universe is bull. Super zombies, a woman that can control most plant life out there, a mud man that can grow as big as a kaiju that is immune to most ways of being neutralized, a vigilante that can supposedly beat anyone with prep time... Yeah.
> 
> Bruce's moments of being a good family person are badly outnumbered by him being pretty bad at being a family person.


Bruce when competently written is the best head of the Bat Family. Unfortunately, we live in an era where broken heroes who can't save anyone  and make everything worse are popular and it's easy for writers to twist Batman into that role.

I never understood the fans who insisted that Batman and Gotham were 'more grounded'. Gotham is probably the least grounded part of the DC Universe with all of the wacky stuff that goes on there.

----------


## Mia

> Yes...? Or else she wouldn't have kissed her. It was evening, in a private-ish area of the campus, during a weekend when many cadets were going home to visit. 
> 
> Plus, we don't know the specifics of the accusation brought up against her.


I could point out not acting on it at all. But then again I dont have half million dollars to blow down the drain or spend the rest of my life in debt or needlessly put financial hardship on my family. 
 But how about the obvious one of them finding a place behind closed doors. Kate has money I am sure she could have rented a hotel room or an apartment. 




> Gasp. A 20-year-old makes a risky decision. Stop the presses.  
> And this situation is in no way comparable to making life-or-death decisions on a battlefield. Seriously?


The small decisions lead to the big ones. She clearly has no impulse  control and doesnt think things through. God help anyone who would be under her command on the battle field.




> It absolutely _is_ heroic. Kate's decision to resign, rather than lie and take the easy way out, prevented a larger investigation that would have outed not only her but Sophie and any other LGBT cadets. That's why she asks BTO Reyes if she was the only one under suspicion.
> 
> And yeah, she would have to repay the Academy, that's true. But as Jacob said to her, her decision let her keep her integrity. That's worth way more than a measley half a mil. It's worth, to Kate, even more than her very future.


I dont think that someone fessing up to a mess that they created is heroic. 



> It _was_ the only option she had. She tried to finish her degree, but military service had been her only dream, and having that suddenly gone sent her on a fast downward spiral.


If you are arguing that it was the only optionthat she was fixated on the military to all else. Then she should not be a superhero. In fact being a vigilante is as far from a military organization as you could get. If she wanted to serve, she could have joined the police force, the FBI or the CIA. She could even have gone to work for a private military contractor.
 Further if youre arguing that the military is the only option she had. Then that means she is rigid and inflexible and incapable of adapting to change. Shes little more than a silly child who thinks that if she cant get her own way, She should sit in a corner and pout. Thats not heroic. 




> I don't follow your logic of how that's supposed to make Kate shoehorned or SJW/PC. What do Bruce's motives have anything to do with this?


I showed why Bruce became Batman instead of just joining law enforcement. He wanted to directly affect Gotham City. Kate simply said that she wanted to _serve_. She had other options and choices whereby she can serve and help others. Methods that are much closer to the structured military way which she claims to like so much.
Her inclusion came out of the blue. Not only did she have no relation to the Batbooks she didnt even exist in the DC universe.  Didio just as admitted that she was created to add LGBTQ quotient to the Bat books. Thats how she was shoehorned in..to satisfy the SJW/PC fans.

----------


## Caivu

> I could point out not acting on it at all. But then again I dont have half million dollars to blow down the drain or spend the rest of my life in debt or needlessly put financial hardship on my family. 
>  But how about the obvious one of them finding a place behind closed doors. Kate has money I am sure she could have rented a hotel room or an apartment.


It was a completely spontaneous moment, though. Kate had thought Sophie was gone. It's not like they _planned_ to go there and make out. Even if they had, they're a couple 20-year-olds who made a boneheaded decision. So what? Why are you acting like that's somehow a problem? It's pretty realistic.




> The small decisions lead to the big ones. She clearly has no impulse  control and doesnt think things through. God help anyone who would be under her command on the battle field.


She _does_ have impulse control, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Again: 20-year-old. Your equivocation of a spur-of-the-moment bit of affection to battlefield duties remains absurd. To generalize this: do you actually think that people behave the same on the job as they do when at leisure?
You seem to also be under the impression that military personal are like... robots or something. They aren't. 




> I dont think that someone fessing up to a mess that they created is heroic.


You don't? That's... kinda weird, honestly. But there's no evidence that Kate's accusation has anything to do with her kissing Sophie that one time. Even if it did, blaming her for it is absurd, as if DADT was in any way a just policy.

The heroic part is that she completely, without hesitation, gave up the only thing she wanted in life in order to protect others. That displays a wealth of moral courage.




> If you are arguing that it was the only optionthat she was fixated on the military to all else. Then she should not be a superhero. In fact being a vigilante is as far from a military organization as you could get. If she wanted to serve, she could have joined the police force, the FBI or the CIA. She could even have gone to work for a private military contractor.


You're not understanding the situation. Kate was dedicated to a life of military service to such an extent that by giving it up, she literally had no other plans for her life. It quickly led to alcohol abuse and other aimlessness. You think the alphabet agencies or even the GCPD would ever hire her after she becomes tabloid fodder, and a public laughingstock for her alcohol issues? No. And at the depths she was at during that time, it's not like she had the wherewithal to try.

She became a vigilante because that was the _only_ way out of the mess she was in.




> Further if youre arguing that the military is the only option she had. Then that means she is rigid and inflexible and incapable of adapting to change. Shes little more than a silly child who thinks that if she cant get her own way, She should sit in a corner and pout. Thats not heroic.


What are you even talking about here? This isn't about inflexibility or not getting one's way. It's about having one singular goal and focus for your life, and then in an instant giving that all up for the sake of protecting others. Do you seriously think that couldn't mess someone up pretty profoundly, just as we see happen to Kate? 




> I showed why Bruce became Batman instead of just joining law enforcement. He wanted to directly affect Gotham City. Kate simply said that she wanted to _serve_. She had other options and choices whereby she can serve and help others. Methods that are much closer to the structured military way which she claims to like so much.


See above for why that was not an option for her.




> Her inclusion came out of the blue. Not only did she have no relation to the Batbooks she didnt even exist in the DC universe.


This is nonsensical. Every character's creation comes out of the blue. What, are they supposed to exist before they debut or something?

----------


## oasis1313

The military frowns on PDA in general.

----------


## Caivu

> The military frowns on PDA in general.


Yep. IIRC West Point couples aren't even allowed to hold hands in public. So even if Kate had been with a guy, she would've gotten in at least _some_ trouble for kissing another cadet had she been seen.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yep. IIRC West Point couples aren't even allowed to hold hands in public. So even if Kate had been with a guy, she would've gotten in at least _some_ trouble for kissing another cadet had she been seen.


The military makes no secret of it, either; you're warned in advance what will land you in trouble.  When they say, "It's not just a job--it's a way of life," they're not kidding.  You can't separate your personal life from your professional life because they've got you 24/7.

----------


## cgh

> Wein, Conway, and Moenchs Bronze Age Batman runs were better than everything that came after the Crisis.


Conways run in particular is way underrated, in my opinion. The original Croc arc is classic.

Heres my seemingly unpopular opinion: a married Batman would be completely terrible. Luckily, this is superhero comics, so even if it does happen, it wont last.

----------


## dancj

> Wein, Conway, and Moenchs Bronze Age Batman runs were better than everything that came after the Crisis.


Moench's pre-Crisis run was passable.  His post-crisis run was terrible.

Most post-Crisis Batman runs have been better than his stuff.

(notable exception for Prey which is inexplicably good)

----------


## oasis1313

> Conway’s run in particular is way underrated, in my opinion. The original Croc arc is classic.
> 
> Here’s my seemingly unpopular opinion: a married Batman would be completely terrible. Luckily, this is superhero comics, so even if it does happen, it won’t last.


Ha ha--Batman would be a widower within a year.

----------


## bretmaverick2

The original Bat ladies. 

Kathy Kane.   My favorite between the two Batwomen.  I dont like the current Kate version at all.  If the point was to have Batwoman as a gay character could Kathy have not just come out?  I just like the character better, overall.  I still remember being ticked when they had Bronze Tiger kill her in DETECTIVE years ago. 

Betty Kane - likes her a lot as well.  Enjoyed her Bat-Girl stories.  Her brief time as a Titans West member set up what could have been a good return for her.  They could have just maybe taken her costume more crimson and made it a one piece like Kathys.  I didnt even mind when they made her Flamebird I just wish they used her more.  

The original Bat-Ladies, still the best.  Except for Babs, of course.

----------


## bretmaverick2

> Wein, Conway, and Moenchs Bronze Age Batman runs were better than everything that came after the Crisis.


Gotta agree with this!!  The Moench / Jones stories are some of my favorite among Batman material.

----------


## Aahz

> Kathy Kane.   My favorite between the two Batwomen.  I dont like the current Kate version at all.  If the point was to have Batwoman as a gay character could Kathy have not just come out?  I just like the character better, overall.  I still remember being ticked when they had Bronze Tiger kill her in DETECTIVE years ago.


I'm actually not really sure if Kathy and Kate were really supposed to be different characters. I had the impression that Kate was originally supposed to be an alternate Version of Kathy (who did not exist in the post crisis continuity at that point), and that Kathy being back as separate character was due to Morrison doing his dumb "everything is continuity" thing.

----------


## Caivu

> I just like the character better, overall.


Serious question: why? I've never gotten a sense that Kathy Kane was ever a complex or particularly well-developed character. Or even a modestly well-developed one.

----------


## lemonpeace

Swapping David Zavimbe for Luke Fox as Batwing was one of the dumbest things they've done in the batfamily franchise. Also, retiring Batwing entirely when Duke finally rose to herodom instead if letting the only two black heroes working under the batbrand actually interact was mindbogglingly dumb and just terrible for optics; especially given they make the same mistake with the Justice League. It reads like tokenism.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, retiring Batwing entirely when Duke finally rose to herodom instead if letting the only two black heroes working under the batbrand actually interact was mindbogglingly dumb and just terrible for optics; especially given they make the same mistake with the Justice League. It reads like tokenism.


I think that was more because of the Batwings low sales (the last issue had only 8,223 issues shipped). He would have very likely went to limbo without Duke introduction.

And he still appears from time to time (Batgirl, Batman Eternal, Tynions run in TEC), but he is just not popular enough to sell a solo book, and after Tynions TEC run ended there is not really a book at the moment for Batfamly members that don't have there own book.

----------


## Aahz

Honestly I think the really dumb decision from DC was to do series like Batwing and Talon instead of giving one to Red Robin.

----------


## Godlike13

TTs at that time basically was Red Robin’s series. He was their flag barer for their teen line.

----------


## Aahz

> TTs at that time basically was Red Robins series. He was their flag barer for their teen line.


He had a solo and a team book at the same time for more than a decade pre flashpoint (and Dick and Damian are also often leading two books).

And just look at the result, Tim's popularity declined massively in the last years, and Talon and both Batwings flopped.

----------


## Shadowcat

> Swapping David Zavimbe for Luke Fox as Batwing was one of the dumbest things they've done in the batfamily franchise. Also, retiring Batwing entirely when Duke finally rose to herodom instead if letting the only two black heroes working under the batbrand actually interact was mindbogglingly dumb and just terrible for optics; especially given they make the same mistake with the Justice League. It reads like tokenism.


They should reform the Outsiders or Global Guardians book, and add Batwing to the team.

----------


## Godlike13

> He had a solo and a team book at the same time for more than a decade pre flashpoint (and Dick and Damian are also often leading two books).
> 
> And just look at the result, Tim's popularity declined massively in the last years, and Talon and both Batwings flopped.


New 52 Teen Titans wasn’t simply a team book though, it was the centerpiece for an entire line and focused on Tim. I assume the idea was to let that office, and that line, have complete control and agency with character as he the face with TT even now being his creation. While his "popularity" was never gonna be the same as Red Robin then as Robin, being the head of the centerpiece of an entire line was actually a bigger spot and more ambitious then a simple solo. 

And Talon and Batwing were just bad ideas in general.

----------


## Aahz

> They should reform the Outsiders or Global Guardians book, and add Batwing to the team.


The Global Guardians never had a book.

And while this not really falls under "Controversial Batfamily Opinions": The Global Guardians are imo pretty terrible, and alot of the characters are just lame stereotypes (that's also the case with Batman Inc.).

----------


## Mataza

> TTs at that time basically was Red Robins series. He was their flag barer for their teen line.


During the new 52? this isnt true. Tim was criminally underused. Thank god for that tho, the more you got used the worse off you were. Bart and Kon, poor lads.

----------


## lemonpeace

> *I think that was more because of the Batwings low sales (the last issue had only 8,223 issues shipped). He would have very likely went to limbo without Duke introduction.*
> 
> And he still appears from time to time (Batgirl, Batman Eternal, Tynions run in TEC), but he is just not popular enough to sell a solo book, and after Tynions TEC run ended there is not really a book at the moment for Batfamly members that don't have there own book.


That's...debatable. It's not limbo I'm annoyed with, it's taking him completely off the board. If they had retired him after his book got cancelled then I could see that being the reason BUT that's not when the character got retired. They retired him within months of Duke becoming The Signal, 4 years after his title got canned and after years of him popping up in small spots like Batgirl, Eternal, and Tec. There are plenty heroes who exist in limbo who aren't retired so they could pop up at anytime. The fact that they actively retired him (and only him out of the Gotham Knights team) is suspect, especially when they had JUST raised Duke to hero status. Now am I not saying it was outright nefarious, I can't say I know what goes into DC's creative decisions but I can say that the optics of canning the previous black character (who himself teetering on tokenism and was swapped in for a different black character before him) looks suspect and problematic. 

Going back to your point about there not being a book to put batmembers without their own book, there are plenty of them who didn't have books post-Tec who didn't get retired. Batwoman's currently kicking somewhere despite no book, Spoiler left with Tim Drake to do their own thing and is currently in limbo (but at least they compellingly set her up to want out if the cape), Azreal wasn't doing anything until he got put onto JL: O, Cassandra hasn't had her own book in years but is still kicking too. Hell, after his mini, Duke was pretty much in limbo, popping up rarely until Bryan Hill pulled him into Outsiders. 

It was just a dumb move to me that they would outright retire Batwing. At the absolute least, it was horribly timed.

----------


## byrd156

> New 52 Teen Titans wasnt simply a team book though, it was the centerpiece for an entire line and focused on Tim. I assume the idea was to let that office, and that line, have complete control and agency with character as he the face with TT even now being his creation. While his "popularity" was never gonna be the same as Red Robin then as Robin, being the head of the centerpiece of an entire line was actually a bigger spot and more ambitious then a simple solo. 
> 
> And Talon and Batwing were just bad ideas in general.


David Batwing was pretty awesome. Making Luke Fox Batwing was stupid as hell.

----------


## 9th.

> David Batwing was pretty awesome. Making Luke Fox Batwing was stupid as hell.


I kinda liked both but David satisfied a couple of more niches. That suit is way too cool to go to waste, I hate that t's retired.

----------


## Aahz

> The fact that they actively retired him (and only him out of the Gotham Knights team) is suspect, especially when they had JUST raised Duke to hero status.


Ok I missed that.

But when it comes to the other TEC members, those are all bigger names than Luke. 
Batwoman had far higher sales than Batwing, and has an upcoming TV show (and is DCs flagship LGBT charcter).
Azrael was as at least back in the day quite successful (his orginal run went on for 100 issues).
Cass was also quite successful as Batgirl.

And Steph is at least as Supporting character for Tim and Cass quite popular.


And Btw. wasn't he already retired before TEC and and just came out of retirement to help after Tim died? It kind of makes sense that he goes back to his civilian life after the end of the team, opposed to characters like Azrael and Cass who don't have a civilian life.

----------


## Cmbmool

> David Batwing was pretty awesome. Making Luke Fox Batwing was stupid as hell.


I second this, but at least that character left the Batman family before it got too dark for him.

----------


## Buried Alien

Dick Grayson should have remained Robin for life (as he did on Pre-COIE Earth-Two).  He would have become increasingly independent from Batman, and would have upgraded his costume to something resembling what Tim Drake wore during the 1990s, but he would have remained as the only Robin.

Not that I haven't enjoyed the characters of Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and to a lesser extent, Damian Wayne and Stephanie Brown, but to me, Dick Grayson will always be Robin.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick Grayson should have remained Robin for life (as he did on Pre-COIE Earth-Two).  He would have become increasingly independent from Batman, and would have upgraded his costume to something resembling what Tim Drake wore during the 1990s, but he would have remained as the only Robin.
> 
> Not that I haven't enjoyed the characters of Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and to a lesser extent, Damian Wayne and Stephanie Brown, but to me, Dick Grayson will always be Robin.
> 
> Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Life would be a lot less complicated than it is now. :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## The tall man

Not really controversial but I would like to see the Batman who laughs and/or the Grim Knight go after the Bat-family and see how they deal with that. Honestly I think they would be screwed, having two psychotic and murderous Batmen with all the skills, focus and determination of the "original" intent on killing them would be something. I would like to see Jason going up against the Grim Knight or Kate facing off against the TBWL, even Damien bonding with a "killer daddy dearest". I foresee a lot of maiming and death, it would be glorious.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Not really controversial but I would like to see the Batman who laughs and/or the Grim Knight go after the Bat-family and see how they deal with that. Honestly I think they would be screwed, having two psychotic and murderous Batmen with all the skills, focus and determination of the "original" intent on killing them would be something. I would like to see Jason going up against the Grim Knight or Kate facing off against the TBWL, even Damien bonding with a "killer daddy dearest". I foresee a lot of maiming and death, it would be glorious.


Just looked up Grim Knight. Sounds like the version of Batman who avenged Jason Todd, but with Lazarus pit insanity.

----------


## TheNewFiftyForum

> David Batwing was pretty awesome. Making Luke Fox Batwing was stupid as hell.


The first six or so issues were great, but the book went south when they tried propping it up by finding ways to involve Batman and Gotham as much as possible.

----------


## dietrich

> Not really controversial but I would like to see the Batman who laughs and/or the Grim Knight go after the Bat-family and see how they deal with that. Honestly I think they would be screwed, having two psychotic and murderous Batmen with all the skills, focus and determination of the "original" intent on killing them would be something. I would like to see Jason going up against the Grim Knight or Kate facing off against the TBWL, even Damien bonding with a "killer daddy dearest". I foresee a lot of maiming and death, it would be glorious.


That's a story I'd like to read.

----------


## Agent Z

> Not really controversial but I would like to see the Batman who laughs and/or the Grim Knight go after the Bat-family and see how they deal with that. Honestly I think they would be screwed, having two psychotic and murderous Batmen with all the skills, focus and determination of the "original" intent on killing them would be something. I would like to see Jason going up against the Grim Knight or Kate facing off against the TBWL, even Damien bonding with a "killer daddy dearest".* I foresee a lot of maiming and death*, it would be glorious.


Yes, Grim Knight and BMWL will indeed be screwed when dealing with heroes who have no problem killing.

----------


## ermac

Nightwing belongs in the Justice League.

Gotham can be taken care of by Oracle, Tim, and Cassie.

Maybe Damian on the Titans?

Retire Batwoman, Spoiler, Huntress, Signal... Let Red Hood die.

And let Bruce be happy with Selina somewhere else.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Nightwing belongs in the Justice League.
> 
> Gotham can be taken care of by Oracle, Tim, and Cassie.
> 
> Maybe Damian on the Titans?
> 
> Retire Batwoman, Spoiler, Huntress, Signal... Let Red Hood die.
> 
> And let Bruce be happy with Selina somewhere else.


Agree on the first.
Second one is iffy, as Gotham is a big city.
Damian already has his own Teen Titans team.
Just plain disagree with this line.
Agree on the last. Both Bruce and Selina are practically geriatrics now. They need to be focusing more on their nest eggs and raising Helena Wayne. And for Bruce to be less emotionally constipated.


Anyway; not so much "unpopular", but Cass should be, I don't necessarily want to say adopted by Bruce again, but should be an official member of the family either way, and interact more with the main Bat Kids. Duke too.

----------


## The tall man

> Yes, Grim Knight and BMWL will indeed be screwed when dealing with heroes who have no problem killing.


Oh really! You honestly think Jason or Kate can take out the BMWL and the Grim Knight? Well maybe with some massive jobbing on the part of the latter. They can't even handle "regular" Batman if he's written correctly and not holding back. But family fans would be in an uproar if that happened. All things being even and given what we've seen the both of them being capable of doing, the family cannot survive an assault by the BMWL and the Grim Knight. It would be slaughter.

----------


## Agent Z

> Oh really! You honestly think Jason or Kate can take out the BMWL and the Grim Knight? Well maybe with some massive jobbing on the part of the latter. They can't even handle "regular" Batman if he's written correctly and not holding back. But family fans would be in an uproar if that happened. All things being even and given what we've seen the both of them being capable of doing, the family cannot survive an assault by the BMWL and the Grim Knight. It would be slaughter.


Jason had the Joker dead to rights in Under The Red Hood and Grim Knight got taken down by his universe's James Gordon, a non-superhero cop with no superpowers or any of the Batfamily's training. Most of the family has dealt with evil Batmen in some form or another. I think they'll do fine. 

You mean to tell me fans don't like when their favorite characters get killed off? What a shock! Meanwhile, I can hardly think of fandom like Bruce's that throws a fit every time someone so much as wags their finger at him.

----------


## Aahz

> You honestly think Jason or Kate can take out the BMWL and the Grim Knight?


 Jason imo potentially, he has really a lot of training and is supposed to be natural fighter, that's just often ignored by the writers (and he can of course play dirty).
With Kate it is hard to say, based on the comics it is really hard to judge how good she is in comparison to the rest of the family.

----------


## Caivu

> Oh really! You honestly think Jason or Kate can take out the BMWL and the Grim Knight?


With guns? Uh... yes. BMWL and GK are just dudes. Kate and Jason are both excellent marksmen, and guns are the proverbial equalizer.




> With Kate it is hard to say, based on the comics it is really hard to judge how good she is in comparison to the rest of the family.


Not really. Maybe in terms of _direct_ comparisons, but that doesn't make things that difficult.

----------


## Godlike13

Except they are not just dudes, they’re Batmen. With Batman equivalent skill mastery and dedication.

----------


## Caivu

> Except they are not just dude, they’re Batmen. With Batman equivalent skill mastery and dedication.


Not the same thing as superpowers.

----------


## Godlike13

For all intents and purposes it is. Guns aren't even an equalizer against regular batman.

----------


## Aahz

> For all intents and purposes it is. Guns aren't even an equalizer against regular batman.


Guns are pretty useless in Batman comics.

----------


## Arsenal

Batman #55 showed that guns work pretty well against a Bat when you use them properly/ remove the plot armor.

----------


## Pohzee

If Batman can beat Kate and Jason without guns (which he can) then he can beat them while still holding a gun. He doesn’t need to use them if they aren’t effective. He’s Batman.

----------


## Gurz

Don't you know your Batman, Batman hates guns. Guns killed his parents in his head. He despises them. I like Punisher and even i'm respectful to Batman's wish. Stop forcing a gun in Batman's hands.

----------


## The tall man

> Except they are not just dudes, theyre Batmen. With Batman equivalent skill mastery and dedication.


Exactly! Bruce (any version of him) has the family beat when it comes to strategy, tactics and preparation. He is always several steps ahead of his opponents and has contingencies and alternate plans in place. You think any Batman going after the family won't have knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, as well as a detailed plan of attack to kill them all? Some may not like it because nowadays its cool to hate on Batman but a Batman written properly will beat the family. And two evil Batmen with no emotional feelings towards the family will destroy them.

----------


## Aahz

> Batman #55 showed that guns work pretty well against a Bat when you use them properly/ remove the plot armor.


Not really other wise Dick would be dead. The same goes btw. for Penguin and Clayface.

In general most of Jasons opponets seem to be completely imune to bullets, therefore I'm actually glad he finally dropped them since his last redesign.

----------


## Arsenal

> Not really other wise Dick would be dead. The same goes btw. for Penguin and Clayface.
> 
> In general most of Jasons opponets seem to be completely imune to bullets, therefore I'm actually glad he finally dropped them since his last redesign.


The only reason Dick survived is because Bruce was there to take care of him (and KGBeast didn't fire a second shot). I kind of doubt in this scenario that somebody will be there to save Grim Knight or B-Man who Laughs should somebody shoot them in the head.

----------


## Jackalope89

Would the Grim Knight really have much issue with Jason though? Both believe in lethal force (if in varying degrees), both are wary at best of cops, etc. 

BWL, well, he's a different story.

----------


## Agent Z

Again, Grim Knight got taken down by a cop with no super powers or any of the Batfamily's training.

----------


## Aahz

> The only reason Dick survived is because Bruce was there to take care of him (and KGBeast didn't fire a second shot).


Even with care head shots are not that easy to survive. But that depends of course on a lot of factors.

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

Jim Gordon should have stayed retired. I do like his character a lot, but aside from Black Mirror, I don’t really feel like there’s anything interesting you can do with him as the police comissioner in mainline continuity again. If Montoya can’t be the question ever again, see how she does in this role. That or give me Aikins back and do more with his character. 

There’s a lot of bat characters that should have stayed dead, but Bruce and Joker are on the top 2 of that list for me. The bat family has so much more room to grow with Bruce out of the picture, and the joker has just been played out. Start giving other Bat villains big stories, like scarecrow. 

Cassandra Cain needs a new identity ASAP. I still want her history as batgirl back first and foremost, but it’s time she gets the respect she deserves in the DCU. 

Jason Todd should have stayed a villain, and be used as either Dick or Tim’s arch nemesis. 

Harvey dent needs some sort of stopping point for his character. Either allow him to finally be redeemed, or kill him off.

----------


## Pohzee

Alfred is overrated. And attempts to make him overly badass make my eyes roll.

----------


## Godlike13

Alfred should die.

----------


## Pohzee

> Alfred should die.


He already did that one time.

I still like Alfred, and I think that him having an interesting background is fine, but stories like the First Ally went totally overboard. He serves as an interesting support figure for Batman, but I don't need a TV show about him. I'm also super big on the overt fatherhood role so many stories seem to play up. Even more so than the Dick and Bruce relationship, it should be more nuanced than that. Part faithful servant, part partner in crime, with a dash of reluctance and perhaps concerned parental figure. I'm over him being reduced Bruce's adopted dad who angsts about whether Bruce is well adjusted or not.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s not that I don’t like Alfred. I don’t like how he has become this sacred cow immune from accountability. Maybe it’s time to explore a Bat world without him for a bit.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It’s not that I don’t like Alfred. I don’t like how he has become this sacred cow immune from accountability. Maybe it’s time to explore a Bat world without him for a bit.


There's actually an ongoing fanfic with that (along with Dick, Jason, and Tim not being taken in by Bruce) as a premise. Though set in the DCAU (to an extent). 


Anyway, Jason Todd for Mayor of Gotham City!

----------


## TheJudge95

> There's actually an ongoing fanfic with that (along with Dick, Jason, and Tim not being taken in by Bruce) as a premise. Though set in the DCAU (to an extent). 
> 
> 
> Anyway, Jason Todd for Mayor of Gotham City!


What's the fanfic called?

----------


## Jackalope89

> What's the fanfic called?


Its a series, actually. Begins with this one.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9656392/1/The-Ninth-Circle

And from there, it builds upon the AU DCAU. A lot of stories, and each one has some build up to the next.

----------


## 9th.

I love Alfred but I'd be ok with him dying, not I'd like how much of an emotional wreck Bruce would be in though.

----------


## Arsenal

Maybe just have him retire instead. Still takes him out of the picture while leaving any easy route to bring him back plus we avoid more emotional wreck Bruce.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> Maybe just *have him retire instead*. Still takes him out of the picture while leaving any easy route to bring him back plus *we avoid more emotional wreck Bruce*.


But, but...he'd have to answer the door himself and do his own laundry - are you sure that wouldn't make Bruce an emotional wreck?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zudomon

I think retiring Alfred or killing him off is a good idea.  He's older now and Bruce has a huge cast of supporting characters that they can draw from in the future.  I know some purists would be pissed off, but I think it makes sense in the evolution of Bruce's character.

----------


## Godlike13

Ooh, or how about Bruce fires him.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I think retiring Alfred or killing him off is a good idea.  He's older now and Bruce has a huge cast of supporting characters that they can draw from in the future.  I know some purists would be pissed off, but I think it makes sense in the evolution of Bruce's character.


I think the problem there is that by letting Alfred go, Bruce loses a foil and sounding board who isn't involved in the action

----------


## TheCape

> He already did that one time.
> 
> I still like Alfred, and I think that him having an interesting background is fine, but stories like the First Ally went totally overboard. He serves as an interesting support figure for Batman, but I don't need a TV show about him. I'm also super big on the overt fatherhood role so many stories seem to play up. Even more so than the Dick and Bruce relationship, it should be more nuanced than that. Part faithful servant, part partner in crime, with a dash of reluctance and perhaps concerned parental figure. I'm over him being reduced Bruce's adopted dad who angsts about whether Bruce is well adjusted or not.


Man i really came to dislike Snyde's Alfred, a few days ago, i decided to read The First Ally and it was pretty bad, especially the last issue, pretty much agreed with your post regarding his past and relationship with Bruce, Snyder own vice of inserting something in the past that we didn't know was there got out control.

----------


## WonderNight

Nightwing has reached his full potential under batman and Nightwing needs to be spined off into the head of his ip.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I love Alfred, but would be fine with him being killed off. 

Also, I prefer the pre-Crisis setup of their relationship to the post-Crisis one. Bruce sometimes viewing Alfred as a father stand in and Alfred worrying about how ill-adjusted Bruce is as an adult can get tedious. Plus it makes Alfred look like an ineffectual guardian if he lets all this Batman stuff happen under his watch. Better for Bruce to be well on his way there when they first meet.

----------


## twiztor

> Nightwing has reached his full potential under batman and Nightwing needs to be spinned off into the head of his ip.


i thought this was controversial opinions, not a thread for facts!

----------


## oasis1313

> I love Alfred, but would be fine with him being killed off. 
> 
> Also, I prefer the pre-Crisis setup of their relationship to the post-Crisis one. Bruce sometimes viewing Alfred as a father stand in and Alfred worrying about how ill-adjusted Bruce is as an adult can get tedious. Plus it makes Alfred look like an ineffectual guardian if he lets all this Batman stuff happen under his watch. Better for Bruce to be well on his way there when they first meet.


Awwwww, don't kill Alfred--kill Bruce instead!

----------


## dancj

Man - so many people out for Alfred's blood!

He's the best character in Batman.  That said, I think they should stop trying to make him badass in the comics.  Sean Pertwee's one in Gotham is great, but in the comics I want the prim and proper sarcastic Alfred we know and love.

----------


## Restingvoice

Alfred has about as many back story occupation as Batman has martial arts kinda annoy me. Theater actor, secret agent, bodyguard, army cook, mechanic, army medic, detective, did I miss anything? I'm sure it's not all at once, and sometimes they use it to explain why he's such a badass, sometimes just for a gag. I prefer the gag. 

I never really like the multidisciplinary/renaissance genius of the DCU. I prefer each character only have one branch of discipline they're a genius at, while the rest is average.

----------


## mathew101281

> Alfred has about as many back story occupation as Batman has martial arts kinda annoy me. Theater actor, secret agent, bodyguard, army cook, mechanic, army medic, detective, did I miss anything? I'm sure it's not all at once, and sometimes they use it to explain why he's such a badass, sometimes just for a gag. I prefer the gag. 
> 
> I never really like the multidisciplinary/renaissance genius of the DCU. I prefer each character only have one branch of discipline they're a genius at, while the rest is average.


In reality most of those disciplines can be rolled up into him being a secret agent that had been required to preform in different roles over the years.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> Alfred has about as many back story occupation as Batman has martial arts kinda annoy me. Theater actor, secret agent, bodyguard, army cook, mechanic, army medic, detective, did I miss anything? I'm sure it's not all at once, and sometimes they use it to explain why he's such a badass, sometimes just for a gag. I prefer the gag. 
> 
> I never really like the multidisciplinary/renaissance genius of the DCU. I prefer each character only have one branch of discipline they're a genius at, while the rest is average.


Gary Stus and Mary Sues are bound to become annoying, a character needs a number of actual flaws to be relate-able, and not 'flaws' that actually make them better at what they do.  And definitely not the old 'cursed with awesome' trope.  

I like Batwoman, and Red Hood the most out of the main Bat-fam - as a result of them being more interesting due to their flaws, and rebellion against Batman's control.

I can't stand Tim, due to his personality and press-a-button-solves-everything routine in 'Tec.  Cass has potential, but the 'cursed with awesome' trope ruins her for me because she's basically meta-human whilst the writers try to pretend she isn't.  If she was acknowledged as Meta I would be more forgiving, otherwise OP.

----------


## Aahz

> Gary Stus and Mary Sues are bound to become annoying, a character needs a number of actual flaws to be relate-able, and not 'flaws' that actually make them better at what they do.  And definitely not the old 'cursed with awesome' trope.


The is imo more that they never really managed to put this stuff in one coherent origin story.

Snyders "The First Ally" for example didn't had the actor part in it, and iirc also didn't showed his skills as medic.

Pre flashpoint we had a origin story, where was an acting teacher for the MI6 than went on one mission undercover, and after that became Bruce Buttler, which ignored the soldier and medic part.

Also the question bout why he grew up in England if his family has served the Waynes for generations, is also often not really explained.

----------


## oasis1313

> Gary Stus and Mary Sues are bound to become annoying, a character needs a number of actual flaws to be relate-able, and not 'flaws' that actually make them better at what they do.  And definitely not the old 'cursed with awesome' trope.  
> 
> I like Batwoman, and Red Hood the most out of the main Bat-fam - as a result of them being more interesting due to their flaws, and rebellion against Batman's control.
> 
> I can't stand Tim, due to his personality and press-a-button-solves-everything routine in 'Tec.  Cass has potential, but the 'cursed with awesome' trope ruins her for me because she's basically meta-human whilst the writers try to pretend she isn't.  If she was acknowledged as Meta I would be more forgiving, otherwise OP.


I'd like to see Tim really killed off, even though he's guaranteed not to.  Alfred is a nice person and he does all the scut work , all the lawn maintenance, and all the cooking.  I'd rather see more focus on Cass learning how interface with the world.

----------


## dancj

> Alfred has about as many back story occupation as Batman has martial arts kinda annoy me. Theater actor, secret agent, bodyguard, army cook, mechanic, army medic, detective, did I miss anything?


Agreed. 

Leave it at army medic.  That's the most important one for him supporting Batman.  Any time they bring up the others (particularly the actor) it can get cringe-worthy.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> The is imo more that they never really managed to put this stuff in one coherent origin story.
> 
> Snyders "The First Ally" for example didn't had the actor part in it, and iirc also didn't showed his skills as medic.
> 
> Pre flashpoint we had a origin story, where was an acting teacher for the MI6 than went on one mission undercover, and after that became Bruce Buttler, which ignored the soldier and medic part.
> 
> Also the question bout why he grew up in England if his family has served the Waynes for generations, is also often not really explained.


Ugh, Alfred is too darn confusing.  The writers should make up their minds about his background and try to stick to it.  

Otherwise, I'm just going to assume that Alfred is a chronic liar, and tells Bruce all kinds of made-up stories about his past.

----------


## lemonpeace

The four core/former Robins should NOT all look like mini Bruce Waynes, the fact that they look like Bruce in various phases of his life is lazy and dumb. Damian has an excuse (even though i have my own minuscule issues with his design) but Dick, Jason, and Tim have zero excuse and belay a underlying lack of creativity either on the part of artist or, more likely, editorial.

----------


## Arsenal

I’m not sure what to do about Tim or Dick but Jason is an easy fix. Just give him his random strip of white hair back which instantly make him stand out. Or make him Hispanic since apparently that was a thing some people want(ed).

----------


## dropkickjake

Ironically Damian is the one who is often drawn the most differently, sometimes being drawn to look half Asian/middle eastern.

----------


## Aahz

> I’m not sure what to do about Tim or Dick but Jason is an easy fix. Just give him his random strip of white hair back which instantly make him stand out. Or make him Hispanic since apparently that was a thing some people want(ed).


And Jason should not look like a "mini" version, he is supposed to be only 2 inch shorter than Bruce (and 15 pounds heavier) I find it wired that he is often completely dwarfed by batman when they appear on the same page.

When we are at it: the artists should put a little more though in the evolution of the Robin costume, and have the look fit better to the wearer.
It makes imo no sense, that Damian costume to incorporate parts of the classic costume, if that costume didn't exist in the new 52, and for Jason to have costume that is brighter and less protective than the one Dick had.

----------


## dropkickjake

Jokey-small-batman
Shooty-small-batman
Nerdy-small-batman
ninja-small-batman

----------


## 9th.

> The four core/former Robins should NOT all look like mini Bruce Waynes, the fact that they look like Bruce in various phases of his life is lazy and dumb. Damian has an excuse (even though i have my own minuscule issues with his design) but Dick, Jason, and Tim have zero excuse and belay a underlying lack of creativity either on the part of artist or, more likely, editorial.


I never got why they all looked the same, isn't Jason atleast supposed to have red hair or something?

----------


## Aahz

> I never got why they all looked the same, isn't Jason atleast supposed to have red hair or something?


Only the pre crisis version.

----------


## byrd156

> The four core/former Robins should NOT all look like mini Bruce Waynes, the fact that they look like Bruce in various phases of his life is lazy and dumb. Damian has an excuse (even though i have my own minuscule issues with his design) but Dick, Jason, and Tim have zero excuse and belay a underlying lack of creativity either on the part of artist or, more likely, editorial.


I mean Dick has more of a reason than most. He's supposed to be a reflection of Bruce right down to losing his parents to crime in a similar fashion at the same age. Looking similar to Bruce I think is important for Dick.

----------


## phantom1592

> And Jason should not look like a "mini" version, he is supposed to be only 2 inch shorter than Bruce (and 15 pounds heavier) I find it wired that he is often completely dwarfed by batman when they appear on the same page.
> 
> When we are at it: the artists should put a little more though in the evolution of the Robin costume, and have the look fit better to the wearer.
> It makes imo no sense, that Damian costume to incorporate parts of the classic costume, if that costume didn't exist in the new 52, and for Jason to have costume that is brighter and less protective than the one Dick had.


I don't see why Jason should be so big. He should still be young. A few younger than Dick and just a couple older than Tim. 19 to EARLY 20's at best. 


As for the costumes... I REALLY want them to stop retconning the costumes. If they don't like the old costumes... grow out of them, but pretending they never happened while still sort of kind of maybe referencing them is too confusing... for their own creators. They don't know whehterh they're coming or going. 





> The four core/former Robins should NOT all look like mini Bruce Waynes, the fact that they look like Bruce in various phases of his life is lazy and dumb. Damian has an excuse (even though i have my own minuscule issues with his design) but Dick, Jason, and Tim have zero excuse and belay a underlying lack of creativity either on the part of artist or, more likely, editorial.


It would be editorial. DC's biggest problem is their 'legacy' concept. They never care as much for the character in the costume as the costume itself. Those are the things on lunchboxes and action figures... so while Dick or Wally may be wearing the costume... it still looks like 'Flash and Batman'. Same with Robin. Editorial didn't care about individual secret identities.. just that they can have a Robin teamed with Batman and that they look identifiable. Therefore the Dark haired boy in a domino mask. It's 'iconic'.

----------


## Arsenal

> I don't see why Jason should be so big. He should still be young. A few younger than Dick and just a couple older than Tim. 19 to EARLY 20's at best.


You can still be that size at age 19 to early 20's. 

If anything, when they are all fully grown, Dick should be the shortest of them all since he's the acrobat of the family.

----------


## Jackalope89

> You can still be that size at age 19 to early 20's. 
> 
> If anything, when they are all fully grown, Dick should be the shortest of them all since he's the acrobat of the family.


Agreed. Age doesn't mean too much when it comes to whose bigger when the people in question are adults. Even blood-related brothers that I've known have had an older brother shorter than the younger brother. And since the two come from completely different biological backgrounds, that isn't even a hangup.

----------


## 9th.

Jason's supposed to be 19!?!?!?!, I keep forgetting how young these characters are supposed to be. He's like 24-25 in my mind, while Dick is 27, and Tim is 18-19.

----------


## Frontier

> I mean Dick has more of a reason than most. He's supposed to be a reflection of Bruce right down to losing his parents to crime in a similar fashion at the same age. Looking similar to Bruce I think is important for Dick.


I also always just assumed the Robins all looking alike is a kind of deliberate visual consistency...

----------


## byrd156

> I also always just assumed the Robins all looking alike is a kind of deliberate visual consistency...


That too. I like the idea of Batman and Robin always look a specific way that way to the rest of the world they could be the same person.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't see why Jason should be so big. He should still be young. A few younger than Dick and just a couple older than Tim. 19 to EARLY 20's at best.


At that age you have pretty much reached your adult hight (and 6'0'' is not that tall). And it is his offical hight.





> I mean Dick has more of a reason than most. He's supposed to be a reflection of Bruce right down to losing his parents to crime in a similar fashion at the same age. Looking similar to Bruce I think is important for Dick.


Than you could also make the argument that (post crisis) Jason was to remind Bruce on Dick.

----------


## Aahz

> As for the costumes... I REALLY want them to stop retconning the costumes. If they don't like the old costumes... grow out of them, but pretending they never happened while still sort of kind of maybe referencing them is too confusing... for their own creators. They don't know whehterh they're coming or going.


I would prefer if they came up with one design for each Robin and stick with it (at least untill the next reboot), I just want it to make sense.

Btw. I think that it would be possible, to update Dicks costume without changing it to drastically, just by adding pants.
In Jasons case I think it would be just nice to give him his own look.
Tim's and Damian's costume are anyway fine (appat from the continuity problems caused by the reboot).

----------


## adrikito

I prefer the old Catwoman costume and hairstyle.

CW.jpg

----------


## dancj

> The four core/former Robins should NOT all look like mini Bruce Waynes, the fact that they look like Bruce in various phases of his life is lazy and dumb.


Well Jason only looks like him because he dyes his hair.

----------


## Agent Z

Telltale's Joker is the second best depiction of the character beaten out only by the Heath Ledger version.

----------


## jetengine

Jason needs the white stripe back and to have a deep, angry and difficult relationship with Bruce. Bruce loves him as a Father but can't understand why he's so angry post Lazarus pit, nor can he agree with his methods. Jason softens eventually to Bruces nagging and instead of using live ammunition to disable* (shooting knees etc) moves to rubber bullets instead. Bruce still doesn't let him in his home with his guns and its a contentious point between them.

Too many of Batmans rogues fall into each other as "Mobster with gimmick". Have Two Face be redeemed to show Bruce that what he does matters.

Penguin deserves a revamp, he fits my above statement as well. Make him a bit younger, lose the stomach but keep the beaky nose, monocole and waddle. Reinvent him less as a gang-leader but more of a "Gentleman theif" whom works alone. A male Catwoman if you will. He infact could be both Batman AND Catwomans rival.

*Yes, shooting to disable doesn't actually exist and kills people irl but this is comics where Batman punches through walls.

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason needs the white stripe back and to have a deep, angry and difficult relationship with Bruce. Bruce loves him as a Father but can't understand why he's so angry post Lazarus pit, nor can he agree with his methods. Jason softens eventually to Bruces nagging and instead of using live ammunition to disable* (shooting knees etc) moves to rubber bullets instead. Bruce still doesn't let him in his home with his guns and its a contentious point between them.
> 
> Too many of Batmans rogues fall into each other as "Mobster with gimmick". Have Two Face be redeemed to show Bruce that what he does matters.
> 
> Penguin deserves a revamp, he fits my above statement as well. Make him a bit younger, lose the stomach but keep the beaky nose, monocole and waddle. Reinvent him less as a gang-leader but more of a "Gentleman theif" whom works alone. A male Catwoman if you will. He infact could be both Batman AND Catwomans rival.
> 
> *Yes, shooting to disable doesn't actually exist and kills people irl but this is comics where Batman punches through walls.


You are exactly on target here.  I find it strange that Jason has a more amiable relationship with Bruce than Dick does.

----------


## jetengine

> You are exactly on target here.  I find it strange that Jason has a more amiable relationship with Bruce than Dick does.


The most I could see Bruce being angry about with Dick is the leaving era but then I'd expect a few weeks in for him to realise how much of a selfish ass he's being but their both too stubborn and awkward to actually meet up and apologise. When they do its heartwarming however.

----------


## Arsenal

> Jason needs the white stripe back and to have a deep, angry and difficult relationship with Bruce. Bruce loves him as a Father but can't understand why he's so angry post Lazarus pit, nor can he agree with his methods. Jason softens eventually to Bruces nagging and instead of using live ammunition to disable* (shooting knees etc) moves to rubber bullets instead. Bruce still doesn't let him in his home with his guns and its a contentious point between them.


I don’t think this is controversial at all, Jason’s and Bruce’s relationship should absolutely be a complicated mess. They should have periods where they’re on good terms but the peace between them should fragile at best.

----------


## jetengine

> I don’t think this is controversial at all, Jason’s and Bruce’s relationship should absolutely be a complicated mess. They should have periods where they’re on good terms but the peace between them should fragile at best.


Considering some want him to either be a villain or a straight up Batfamily member a kind of estranged ally is better imo

----------


## lemonpeace

I REALLY dig that Duke is a metahuman. It's main thing that makes him standout among the batfamily and his power is pretty unique in the DC landscape; it's not overly powered but it compliments his skillset as a batmember. Also it differentiates him from the other black tokens in the batfamily, especially now since Batwing's retirement has made him pretty much a token himself.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

What exactly are Duke's powers anyways?

----------


## Korath

He gets to see were light was and will be, which allow him to see past and future actions, to a limited degree. He is also able to enhance some meta-human abilities when near the metas who have been created by Gnomon.

----------


## lemonpeace

> What exactly are Duke's powers anyways?


In simplest terms, he has photokinetic vision; his eyes take in light better than humans and he can manipulate the way he processes it. The main ability is limited precognition and clairvoyance but he has a couple ancillary abilities. He can track people and see through walls, he can see outside the visible spectrum, he can detect tiny light retractions, he can see variations in light others can't see, and he's reactive to Nth metal (particularly 8th metal). His reaction to 8th metal is why he amplifies metas made by Gnomon (his father), who used 8th metal to make metas. Certain forms of Nth Metal can enhance his abilities too.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I don’t think this is controversial at all, Jason’s and Bruce’s relationship should absolutely be a complicated mess. They should have periods where they’re on good terms but the peace between them should fragile at best.


Uh, their relationship is a hot mess. The last issue had Batman bust into the Iceberg Lounge after Jason's takeover. And not in a friendly way. When he left, tensions were high.

----------


## Arsenal

> Uh, their relationship is a hot mess. The last issue had Batman bust into the Iceberg Lounge after Jason's takeover. And not in a friendly way. When he left, tensions were high.


Agreed! His relationship with Bruce is exactly as it should be. Never meant to imply that it wasn’t already.

----------


## Westbats

Hmm, opinions that come to mind are

Purely hypothetical, but if a storyline had Barbara stop being Batgirl, I'd be okay with Cassandra, Stephanie, or someone entirely new taking up the mantle.  I do think there can be multiple Batgirls simultaneously.

Harper Row wasn't a bad character, it's how she was handled.  Much like how Geoff Johns keeps writers from using Shazam or the Justice Society, Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV kept writers from working with her, which I think is why _Batman and Robin Eternal_ was so convoluted (among other things); it had to stuff entire storylines into a story that should have been about every Robin.  I'd love for someone else to bring her back, eventually into a vigilante role.

I enjoyed Tim Seeley writing Dick Grayson out of suit, and I like Shawn Tsang, she was interesting and a good foil (and romantic interest) to Dick.

----------


## Tzigone

There's controversial and then controversial _here_.  Before I found this board, I'd have said '90s Tim (and Kon) or bronze-age Batman being better than later versions was controversial, but I'm not sure it is here.

So:

Steph was better as Spoiler than Batgirl. I liked her not backing down from heroing Batman's orders. As bad as she got treated by everyone, I don't find her getting accepted as Batgirl a victory. It's like the end of "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" - are you glad all the reindeer love him or would you rather he tell them to take a hike?  I'm in the later character. I consider going from an independent hero to being Oracle's underling (and yes, I do think Oracle is frequently written as her boss) is a demotion.  Liked her personality more before all the wisecracking, too.

Barbara should not have been de-aged and made Batgirl again. Doesn't sound that controversial in my old circles (maybe here?), but she _should_ have had her paralysis healed.  I'm not sure if I've met anyone else who holds both ideas.  It makes sense with the technology in the world (particularly Damian's healing - they could have tried to steal info on that process, at least), and it eases my frustration over the double standard where Bruce gets healed and Damian gets healed, but Barbara doesn't.  There were of course, several other options they could have tried earlier, but didn't because...plot demands she not be healed.

While Barbara was a good character as Oracle (as always, dependent on who's writing), the purpose was created for her to fill rather than her filling a needed purpose. Everyone did fine with gathering their own intel before she came along, and premise demanded they needed her.  I liked her better running her own team than doing work for other groups (including JL) for this reason.

Barbara's Batgirl origin was better pre-COIE, when she was not Batman's protege, but more independent. When he found out her identity at the same time she found out his. They were on much more equal footing then, and I preferred it.  I do not like Bagirl: Year One at all.

The setup for Death In the Family (searching for Jason's mom) is bad, and the bad continuity regarding his parents (dad's personality and mom's cause of death) annoys me.

I kinda prefer Alfred meeting Bruce after Dick comes along.  I think it's better for how Bruce turned out (at least in his later, unhealthier versions) and keeps the first Batfamily addition and Dick and means he didn't take in a kid expecting someone else to do all the hard work.

I prefer Talia as a villain.  Not as evil as sometimes made out, but definitely in line with her earlier bronze age appearances where she'd amnesia-drug someone, accede to the kidnapping of Bruce's ward, be fine with an unconscious kidnapped Batman being forcibly married to her, etc.

Dick Grayson should be Bruce's best man if he ever marries when these two are in a good emotional place.

Bruce shouldn't have been given a biological child.  I wouldn't get rid of Damian now, but the division/difference between him and the others couldn't have been made plainer when N52 came and the others all lost their places as his kids, and Damian didn't.

I liked Selina having a daughter that wasn't Bruce's, especially if they were to end up together (this is in retrospect, because I never read until after Damian was introduced). He has a whole passel of kids that aren't hers (including a bio one), and hers being adopted out or ceasing to exist makes it feel like a double-standard where he's allowed to have a child not his, but she isn't allowed to have one not his.

Neither Cass nor Tim should have been adopted by Bruce. Tim worked better with his father and it helped to make "son" and "Robin" not interchangeable and dependent on each other.  Cass was, it seems to me, made to spin-off character, not integrated in the family.  Of course, the boys don't have all have deep bonds to each other, either, but that doesn't stop the fandom from acting like they do - something they do not extend to Cass.  Which is a bit unfair.

Alfred should be wrong more - I mean wrong in a way acknowledged by those other than Bruce.  Sometimes - not always - he's written as a sort of all-wise figure that never screws up, and that's an issue with me. 

Moratorium on new members of Batfamily until Damian is grown.  Some are only very distantly connected and end up dropped and forgotten. I understand the business reasons for tying them to the Bat symbol, but would rather new _completely independent_ heroes be developed.  Children too young to side-kick don't count here.

Dick should never, ever move back to Gotham again.  He needs to be out of Batman's shadow or TPTB won't let him shine, since everyone must be inferior to Batman.

Lastly, the grand finale: I don't like Miller's Batman in general, and do not like Batman: Year One.

----------


## Arsenal

> The setup for Death In the Family (searching for Jason's mom) is bad


I don't think there's anything controversial about this. It's really not that good of a story and the only reason it's worth mentioning these days is because it ended with Joker killing robin. Had it gone the other way (Robin lived) I honestly don't think it would ever be discussed.

----------


## Tzigone

> I don't think there's anything controversial about this. It's really not that good of a story and the only reason it's worth mentioning these days is because it ended with Joker killing robin. Had it gone the other way (Robin lived) I honestly don't think it would ever be discussed.


Fair enough.  What about not liking the concept of No Man's Land?  Just all the other heroes not getting involved and helping Gotham.  It's a fictional government, so I could maybe force myself to suspend disbelief to a degree with what happened, if I really wanted to.  But I didn't want to. I can handle Batman saying "Gotham's mine" to other heroes because he thinks he's the kind of Gotham and gets to decide all that happens there, or that somehow thinks he'd do better without them than with them. I can't handle all those other major superheroes abiding by his wishes.  It's so OOC for some of them that I can't get into the story at all. I know they were given other things to do, but there's just too many heroes for that to work for all of them.  I can't swallow the premise, so cannot enjoy the story.  Alien invasions, metas, etc. work fine for me. This one does not. Weird, but there you have it.

Oh, and I absolutely loathe the gay jokes and shipping of Batman and any of his Robins (and that includes Dick and Damian in the roles).  They were children in his care.  A relationship with one of them is pedophilia. Grooming, even if it happens later. A blatant imbalance of power. Treating it like a same-sex love affair (even as a joke) is just so incredibly wrong-headed to me, because there are so many things wrong with that dynamic.  The time Clark and Lois dressed up as Batman and Robin for a costume event and then had an in-costume kiss was not a good thing for me.  Joking about Booster and Blue or Tim and Kon is a completely different thing.  Heck, even if DC wanted to actually ship them would be fine.  But not Batman and Robin, not with their ages and family relationships.  I am actually much more okay with pedophile cracks about Batman than gay jokes about Batman and Robin.

----------


## TheCape

> Fair enough.  What about not liking the concept of No Man's Land?  Just all the other heroes not getting involved and helping Gotham.  It's a fictional government, so I could maybe force myself to suspend disbelief to a degree with what happened, if I really wanted to.  But I didn't want to. I can handle Batman saying "Gotham's mine" to other heroes because he thinks he's the kind of Gotham and gets to decide all that happens there, or that somehow thinks he'd do better without them than with them. I can't handle all those other major superheroes abiding by his wishes.  It's so OOC for some of them that I can't get into the story at all. I know they were given other things to do, but there's just too many heroes for that to work for all of them.  I can't swallow the premise, so cannot enjoy the story.


That's an understandable position, i personally stomach it because honestly no Batman fans want to have the JL interfering in a family storyline, you don't pay to read a Batman comic to to read GL doing the heavy lifting, just like i don't want Bruce to help Clark with his problems on Metropolis when the situation gets bad. I do agreed thought that it set a bad precedent for Batman in the future and led Bruce to become an unlikable asshole more often than not (2000s Batman is an awfull human being more often than not), to the point that you wonder why he still have allies.




> Oh, and I absolutely loathe the gay jokes and shipping of Batman and any of his Robins


You are in luck, in all my time here i have never seen anyone bringing this up, i'm sure that someone has at some point, but is by no means common.

----------


## Arsenal

> Fair enough.  What about not liking the concept of No Man's Land?  Just all the other heroes not getting involved and helping Gotham.  It's a fictional government, so I could maybe force myself to suspend disbelief to a degree with what happened, if I really wanted to.  But I didn't want to. I can handle Batman saying "Gotham's mine" to other heroes because he thinks he's the kind of Gotham and gets to decide all that happens there, or that somehow thinks he'd do better without them than with them. I can't handle all those other major superheroes abiding by his wishes.  It's so OOC for some of them that I can't get into the story at all. I know they were given other things to do, but there's just too many heroes for that to work for all of them.  I can't swallow the premise, so cannot enjoy the story.  Alien invasions, metas, etc. work fine for me. This one does not. Weird, but there you have it.


Unfortunately I can't comment on No Man's Land since I've yet to have the chance to read it. Though, in theory, I think its easier to accept if you have some other major event(s) going on at the same time to explain why nobody came to help.

----------


## Tzigone

> Jason's supposed to be 19!?!?!?!, I keep forgetting how young these characters are supposed to be. He's like 24-25 in my mind, while Dick is 27, and Tim is 18-19.


Do we have to talk about their ages? It's scary. Actually, I love it, screwed up and contradictory and they are. I don't like the close-age between Dick and Jason, because I'm still stuck on their original (and first post-COIE) age gap of 7 years (or was it 8 pre-crisis). I really have a pet peeve about Jason being made more Dick's peer than Tim's. Tim's who he might have been the same age as (Tim was 13 when introduced, and Jason in 7th grade - not held back - shortly before he died). Or Tim who he might be two years older than (he was said to have died at 15, and Dick was 20 in a NTT shortly post-crisis, and Roy said he was 22 and same age as Dick back before Jason died). But still much closer to Tim's age than Dick's.  Though, of course, N52 changed all that. But really, even late post-COIE, they said Dick was 21, which was ridiculous.




> At that age you have pretty much reached your adult hight (and 6'0'' is not that tall). And it is his offical hight.


Agree there's no reason he shouldn't be that tall.  Also, it's sad that official heights are meaningless.  Consistency would be nice.  Their sizes vary as much as facial features.  And teens are short.  The original TT grew up overnight (did you see them at Mento and Elastigirl's wedding?). Teenagers are always way too short compared to adults. I understand why for a visual medium - to indicate they are kids - but when a 14 year old girl is 5'3" but she's 5'11 as adult (Cassie Sandsmark), it's just ridiculous.

----------


## Jackalope89

I don't mind Jason being a little bit closer to Dick in age than Tim. 

But Jason only 19? Come on!

----------


## Aahz

> Do we have to talk about their ages? It's scary. Actually, I love it, screwed up and contradictory and they are. I don't like the close-age between Dick and Jason, because I'm still stuck on their original (and first post-COIE) age gap of 7 years (or was it 8 pre-crisis). I really have a pet peeve about Jason being made more Dick's peer than Tim's. Tim's who he might have been the same age as (Tim was 13 when introduced, and Jason in 7th grade - not held back - shortly before he died). Or Tim who he might be two years older than (he was said to have died at 15, and Dick was 20 in a NTT shortly post-crisis, and Roy said he was 22 and same age as Dick back before Jason died).


Thats also a pet peeve of me, it is even worse if you compare Jasons age to some other characters, in the orginal NTT run Jason was roughly 3 years younger than Beast Boy.





> Agree there's no reason he shouldn't be that tall.  Also, it's sad that official heights are meaningless.  Consistency would be nice.  Their sizes vary as much as facial features.  And teens are short.  The original TT grew up overnight (did you see them at Mento and Elastigirl's wedding?). Teenagers are always way too short compared to adults. I understand why for a visual medium - to indicate they are kids - but when a 14 year old girl is 5'3" but she's 5'11 as adult (Cassie Sandsmark), it's just ridiculous.


Was Cassy Sandsmark ever drawn that tall (appart from maybe in Titans of Tomorrow), I think he official height was allways something between 5'1 and 5'4.
What I find more annoying is something like Connor Kent, it makes not much sense that a clone of Superman is still that short as his age or Damian Wayne who is absurdly short for a 13 year old even by comics standards (unless he has his growth spurt really really late, he would as an adult be probably even shorter than Tim is now).

What also annoys me is how Katana is drawn, she is supposed to be really tiny (5'2''), and was iirc also drawn like that originally (her adoptive dauther Halo was iirc taller than her), but now she allways drawn as roughly 5'8'' which makes her taller than the teen characters.

----------


## dietrich

> Thats also a pet peeve of me, it is even worse if you compare Jasons age to some other characters, in the orginal NTT run Jason was roughly 3 years younger than Beast Boy.
> 
> 
> Was Cassy Sandsmark ever drawn that tall (appart from maybe in Titans of Tomorrow), I think he official height was allways something between 5'1 and 5'4.
> What I find more annoying is something like Connor Kent, it makes not much sense that a clone of Superman is still that short as his age or Damian Wayne who is absurdly short for a 13 year old even by comics standards (unless he has his growth spurt really really late, he would as an adult be probably even shorter than Tim is now).
> 
> What also annoys me is how Katana is drawn, she is supposed to be really tiny (5'2''), and was iirc also drawn like that originally (her adoptive dauther Halo was iirc taller than her), but now she allways drawn as roughly 5'8'' which makes her taller than the teen characters.


a 13 year old will grow eventually you don't know what his parents were like at his age nor do you know the side effects of whatever Talia added to her baby brew. I won't stress over Damian and Tim since they are still growing boys.

----------


## nhienphan2808

It’s not until DKR or DKSA that Miller ruined Batman. Year One usually is regarded as his best work and most decent, but it’s already bad and misunderstood Batman on an fundamental level. To me it’s even worse because it’s in the mainverse in stead of its earth where it belongs.

----------


## Aahz

> a 13 year old will grow eventually you don't know what his parents were like at his age nor do you know the side effects of whatever Talia added to her baby brew. I won't stress over Damian and Tim since they are still growing boys.


Damians official Height is 4'6'', and that fits with how he is usually drawn, thats roughly the average height of a 10 year old, and about 8 inch shorter than an average 13 year old.
It is of cause possible that Damian might just hit puberty extremely late, but if his development is otherwise normal he would probably end up beeing something like 5'0'' as an adult.

And when it come to Tim and his generation, they are all 16 or 17, most people are pretty close to their final height at this age.

----------


## BatmanJones

Here's my "controversial Bat-Family opinion": Tom King is the best Batman/Batman Family writer of all time. True story.

----------


## dietrich

> Damians official Height is 4'6'', and that fits with how he is usually drawn, thats roughly the average height of a 10 year old, and about 8 inch shorter than an average 13 year old.
> It is of cause possible that Damian might just hit puberty extremely late, but if his development is otherwise normal he would probably end up beeing something like 5'0'' as an adult.
> 
> And when it come to Tim and his generation, they are all 16 or 17, most people are pretty close to their final height at this age.


Like I said I don't much mind because they are still growing even though people have reached their adult size by 16 it wouldn't feel like too much of an asspull if Tim suddenly shot up in height.

Damian doesn't yet have a consistent appearance for when he's older. he's either tall and slender like Talia or built like a tank. Either way he's always tall so I like to think he'll have a spurt later.

----------


## Aahz

> Like I said I don't much mind because they are still growing even though people have reached their adult size by 16 it wouldn't feel like too much of an asspull if Tim suddenly shot up in height.


Still something like the Titans of Tomorrow Tim version, where he has suddenly Bruce height and build and completely dwarf his 16 year old self seems off.
It would be also kind of wired if his whole team would suddenly hit a growth spurt at the age of 18.




> Damian doesn't yet have a consistent appearance for when he's older. he's either tall and slender like Talia or built like a tank. Either way he's always tall so I like to think he'll have a spurt later.


I wondering if we will see at some point a tiny adult Damian  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Tzigone

> Damians official Height is 4'6'', and that fits with how he is usually drawn, thats roughly the average height of a 10 year old, and about 8 inch shorter than an average 13 year old.
> It is of cause possible that Damian might just hit puberty extremely late, but if his development is otherwise normal he would probably end up beeing something like 5'0'' as an adult.
> 
> And when it come to Tim and his generation, they are all 16 or 17, most people are pretty close to their final height at this age.


I agree.  Yes, occasionally someone has a late growth spurt after 18, but it's not common (and more likely in boys than girls, of course, because they start and finish puberty/adolescence later) to gain more than a couple inches then.  And Damian is really an issue. They really didn't have him grow between 10 and 13 and, IMO, that's when you take  kid to the doctor to make sure everything is alright.

Kon makes more sense if they'd never had him get as tall as Supes in adulthood. Initally, he wasn't actually a clone of Superman, and we didn't know his human donor or how tall he was.  Even with Lex and Clark contributing the DNA, sometimes kids just turn out shorter than their parents. I could make an exception for an atypical late growth spurt, if it didn't happen to so many characters.

----------


## Aahz

> Kon makes more sense if they'd never had him get as tall as Supes in adulthood. Initally, he wasn't actually a clone of Superman, and we didn't know his human donor or how tall he was.  Even with Lex and Clark contributing the DNA, sometimes kids just turn out shorter than their parents. I could make an exception for an atypical late growth spurt, if it didn't happen to so many characters.


The thing with Kon is just that he seems supposed to be tallest guy of the YJ4, so it is somehow odd that he is still that short in comparison to adult characters.

----------


## Tzigone

> The thing with Kon is just that he seems supposed to be tallest guy of the YJ4, so it is somehow odd that he is still that short in comparison to adult characters.


Probably comes down the variable height thing.   People shrink or grow depending on who they are around or the emotional tone of the scene (growing to dominate villains, shrinking when with senior figures or being beaten in battle, etc.).

----------


## dietrich

> I agree.  Yes, occasionally someone has a late growth spurt after 18, but it's not common (and more likely in boys than girls, of course, because they start and finish puberty/adolescence later) to gain more than a couple inches then.  And Damian is really an issue. They really didn't have him grow between 10 and 13 and, IMO, that's when you take  kid to the doctor to make sure everything is alright.
> 
> Kon makes more sense if they'd never had him get as tall as Supes in adulthood. Initally, he wasn't actually a clone of Superman, and we didn't know his human donor or how tall he was.  Even with Lex and Clark contributing the DNA, sometimes kids just turn out shorter than their parents. I could make an exception for an atypical late growth spurt, if it didn't happen to so many characters.


bruce said he was similar height to Damian when he was his age so there's an in story explanation.

----------


## dietrich

> I wondering if we will see at some point a tiny adult Damian


It'd be funny to see Damian as a 5'0 batman trying to be intimidating  :Smile:

----------


## Tzigone

> bruce said he was similar height to Damian when he was his age so there's an in story explanation.


Okay, but it's still pretty weak, IMO.  Just doesn't seem to be a reason that Damian shouldn't have been allowed to grow. Also now wondering how many flashbacks we've actually seen to Bruce that age (only remember him being Robin in old days, which I wouldn't count, anyway).

----------


## Aahz

> Okay, but it's still pretty weak, IMO.  Just doesn't seem to be a reason that Damian shouldn't have been allowed to grow. Also now wondering how many flashbacks we've actually seen to Bruce that age (only remember him being Robin in old days, which I wouldn't count, anyway).


Not many, most of the flaschback are either set around the time his parents died (when he was 8-10 years old) or he travels the word to become Batman (so probably age 18-25 ?).
If we look at the older stuff apart from the mentioned Robin story, most of the other flashback stories usually have him meet Superboy (in this case Clark) somehow and have him in his late teens (16 or 17).

Btw, they do the same age in live action with the actors they chose to play Bruce and Selina in Gotham.

----------


## dietrich

> Okay, but it's still pretty weak, IMO.  Just doesn't seem to be a reason that Damian shouldn't have been allowed to grow. Also now wondering how many flashbacks we've actually seen to Bruce that age (only remember him being Robin in old days, which I wouldn't count, anyway).


Well he doesn't grow because Tim doesn't grow either until Tim grows Damian can't since he is the baby. I don't mind damian being short. I think it's cute.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't mind damian being short. I think it's cute.


I have actually a bigger problem with Damian bigger problem with him being 13 now. Since he is exactly like he was at 10, which makes ageing him up by 3 years kind of pointless.

----------


## Starter Set

> I prefer the old Catwoman costume and hairstyle.
> 
> Attachment 80801


That's too controversial for me.

----------


## Tzigone

Been reading old messages and I saw someone mention not liking Kate as Bruce's cousin. Never thought about it, but I admit, I don't think her being related adds anything meaningful to the character.

I actually have another controversial (or perhaps just flatly unpopular) opinion on Kate that I didn't think to mention because I don't feel strongly about it or think about Kate much.  Because of the opinion.

One of the first things I read _about_ Kate, other than her being a lesbian, is that Batwoman was cool for being more equal to Batman than his other family associates, she never worked for him and was more stand-on-her-own.  Sounded cool to me  So I started with 52.  I enjoyed the dynamic with Montoya a lot and the character seemed interesting.

Then I went to Detective Comics (skipping all of Final Crisis, which may have had important bits, I admit), and it was pretty much all downhill from there to me, for the very limited amount I read.  Characters often get many aspects added or even change a good bit when they go from guest to star of their own story, and sometimes I like the new bits and sometimes I don't, and in this one I did not.

I liked the wig, and I liked her DADT story.  But there was so much I didn't like.  Little things, like not having the love interest I already liked (and I just think of Maggie in Metropolis) and the wicked stepmother irked. Especially stepmom being unlikable. I'd think I'd have rather had Kate never warm up to her for no reason (if you wanted friction) even though she was a likable woman than what we got.  Love Dana as Tim's stepmom.

But first and foremost, *I really didn’t like how her father seemed to be her boss in Detective Comics*.  I’d much rather her be on her own or have an assistant or even a partner that she didn’t call “sir” - someone not her boss, not her father, not with any sort of authority (and who couldn’t cut off her funds).  I felt like she was a subordinate in her own story, and that was a buzzkill for me.  I mean, stories about subordinates can be good, but that’s not what I wanted for her, especially after Dad wasn’t shown in that role at first.  People on tumblr disagreed with me "he's her Alfred," they said. Alfred didn't hold purse strings, arrange training, or call the shots. He had no authority over Bruce in any context (especially since their adult relationship was largely established before Alfred as his guardian was part of the story).  So, a strong female character not subordinate to Batman is just subordinate to another man. If I hadn't read those explicit "like Batman" equivalencies of her, I'd probably not have disliked this so much.  Doesn't really matter much whether or not it changed later; I wasn't enjoying reading it.

I didn't like Bette as a victim - I liked her as a hero in her own right, too.

The evil twin (brainwashed into evil, but still) clinched it for me.  I've even started a thread to express my hatred of evil siblings.  I tuned out only a few issues later, and have only read Kate when she crosses over with others.  So I don't think of her much, and didn't even think to include her here.  So for me, Kate is a character that could have been awesome, but wasn't. I'm not going to keep reading comics I don't enjoy (learned that lesson long ago with a show I thought I had to get better again, but instead crashed and burned in awfulness), so I stopped.  If I was really into the character earlier, I'd pick it up again later if I heard it got good, but I only just met her, and I don't think the elements I most disliked (father and sister) were ever going to go away, since they're too tied into origin now.

Oh yeah, and the she's-totally-not-dead-ending with Beth was weak.

----------


## Caivu

> and the wicked stepmother irked. Especially stepmom being unlikable. I'd think I'd have rather had Kate never warm up to her for no reason (if you wanted friction) even though she was a likable woman than what we got.


Catherine's not wicked, and having Kate dislike her for no reason at all would be unrealistic; that's not how people behave. Kate doesn't even dislike her, really, she just enjoys irritating her.




> But first and foremost, *I really didn’t like how her father seemed to be her boss in Detective Comics*.  I’d much rather her be on her own or have an assistant or even a partner that she didn’t call “sir” - someone not her boss, not her father, not with any sort of authority (and who couldn’t cut off her funds).


Jacob's not her boss. She calls him "sir" because it's a term of respect, and she respects him. He _is_ her father, after all, and an accomplished Colonel to boot; even if Kate had stayed in the Army, he'd still outrank her, and actually _would_ be her boss (of a sort).

He also doesn't control her funds. No offense, but your interpretation of both characters is skewed. One of the major themes of Batwoman as a character is that being alone is detrimental to her.




> So, a strong female character not subordinate to Batman is just subordinate to another man.


Being subordinate to someone doesn't indicate weakness. Like... _wow._




> Oh yeah, and the she's-totally-not-dead-ending with Beth was weak.


Even though they set it up over two years in advance?

----------


## Tzigone

> Catherine's not wicked


Earliest things we see in Detective Comics (that I recall - it's been a while since I read, so I may misremember) are her hanging out with snotty friends who insult her ring, and then her problems with Kate's evening wear - both of which surely seemed to be setting her up as unlikeable. 




> He also doesn't control her funds. No offense, but your interpretation of both characters is skewed. One of the major themes of Batwoman as a character is that being alone is detrimental to her.


No, my interpretation is different than  yours.  And that's a problem to me.  And with funds, I'm talking about vigilante funds, not living funds.   He outfits her, he sets up her headquarters, etc.  I assumed he paid for it (or obtained it from his sources). I like people around. I like a supporting cast. I didn't like that he held the strings and he made so many of the decision and got the supplies, etc.  It's been a while, but didn't he ever arrange her training instead of her finding her own teachers?




> Being subordinate to someone doesn't indicate weakness. Like... wow.


I'm not talking about weakness (I don't think I ever used that word for her character, only a plot device) - I'm talking about equal footing with Batman  (which was what I'd read about), and she wasn't that. Batman is the undisputed boss of himself. Independent.  No matter how much anyone else doesn't like it. His money, his cave, his supplies, his tech, his rules.  She isn't that (at least in early issues). Does she have to be? No.  But it's not what I was expecting, and was a disappointment.  Like I said, if I'd never read that article (blog post, something), I'd likely have felt differently.  But I did, and I felt the way I felt.

And later didn't he even do some stupid "test" (one of the things most loathe that Batman does to his proteges-he-certainly-doesn't-see-as-equals)?




> and an accomplished Colonel to boot; even if Kate had stayed in the Army, he'd still outrank her, and actually would be her boss (of a sort).


Which is kind of the problem to me. I didn't want her to have a boss-figure.  That her primary supporting hero in vigilante-dom is that means she's not in the same status (boss of the group or even completely standalone hero or team hero) that Batman is.  Which would not have been an issue if my intro into of the idea the character (and reason for reading) is that she wasn't like his proteges.  But she is, just to another person.  Someone else sets up her training, gives her her costume, provides her with supplies, and tests her.  Heck Batgirl was more in control of her own vigilante setup when she was created than that.




> Even though they set it up over two years in advance?


I mean ever trying to make it look like she's dead (to other characters, even) was weak. Nobody buys it, it's old and tired.  I'm as tired of fake deaths as I am of deaths and resurrections.

----------


## Caivu

> Earliest things we see in Detective Comics (that I recall - it's been a while since I read, so I may misremember) are her hanging out with snotty friends who insult her ring, and then her problems with Kate's evening wear - both of which surely seemed to be setting her up as unlikeable.


Unlikable =/= wicked. She's at worst stuffy and old-fashioned. Heck, Catherine actually likes Kate a lot.




> No, my interpretation is different than  yours.  Jacob said he'd put a stop to the whole vigilante thing - that is definitely him having control over her. And that's a problem to me.


Yes, it's different, but it's also wrong because it's not supported by the text. This is what you have a problem with:




> Jacob said he'd put a stop to the whole vigilante thing - that is definitely him having control over her.


Think about this for a moment. 

Jacob is her _father_. And he wants to stop her from doing something _incredibly dangerous_ that, at the time, _she was not trained for_, because _he has already lost one of his daughters._

Like... do you _genuinely_ take issue with that? That a father wants to protect his only living daughter from very reasonable danger?

And that point becomes moot anyway once Jacob sees how serious she is about it.




> And with funds, I'm talking about vigilante funds, not living funds.   He outfits her, he sets up her headquarters, etc.  I assumed he paid for it (or obtained it from his sources).


He does do that. But when Kate breaks off ties with him, her operations don't shut down, because she has her own income. Even before becoming Batwoman, she was buying weapons and gear off the black market, for instance, and that's not anywhere in the neighborhood of cheap.




> And later didn't he even do some stupid "test" (one of the things most loathe that Batman does to his proteges-he-certainly-doesn't-see-as-equals)?


Jacob? Well, technically, Kate's entire training was a test that Jacob designed specifically to be as difficult as possible to make her quit. But her final mission is where he tested her to make sure she would never kill in anger. That's hardly stupid; that's something you absolutely want to make sure someone is capable of if they're going to be working as a vigilante in Gotham, of all places.




> Which is kind of the problem to me. I didn't want her to have a boss-figure.


And she doesn't.




> Someone else sets up her training, gives her her costume, provides her with supplies, and tests her.


So what? Is Kate somehow supposed to do all that stuff herself? Especially when her father has way more connections, especially to the special operations community?




> I mean ever trying to make it look like she's dead (to other characters, even) was weak. Nobody buys it, it's old and tired.


I bought it when I first read it. I had no expectation that Beth would ever return, because she's not a huge character like any of the Trinity or whatever.

----------


## Tzigone

> Unlikable =/= wicked. She's at worst stuffy and old-fashioned. Heck, Catherine actually likes Kate a lot.


Sorry, I wasn't being literal. Just a watered-down wicked stepmother trope, a thorn in the side. I'd have preferred a neutral of likable one.  Again, as I've said, I didn't read many issues.  The entire point is first impressions that turned me off so I didn't bother reading anymore.




> Jacob is her father. And he wants to stop her from doing something incredibly dangerous that, at the time, she was not trained for, because he has already lost one of his daughters.
> 
> Like... do you genuinely take issue with that? That a father wants to protect his daughter from very reasonable danger?


No, I take issue with an _authority figure_ as a fellow worker in the hero businesses with her when I specifically thought (incorrectly) and chose to read her because she was unlike the Bat proteges specifically because she didn't have an authority figure like they did.




> He does do that. But when Kate breaks off ties with him, her operations don't shut down, because she has her own income. Even before becoming Batwoman, she was buying weapons and gear off the black market, for instance, and that's not anywhere in the neighborhood of cheap.


Right. But I never got that far because I didn't like the initial set up.  No reason for me to read what I'm not enjoying.





> So what? Is Kate somehow supposed to do all that stuff herself? Especially when her father has way more connections, especially to the special operations community?


*Yes*, she is supposed to do that herself. Just like Bruce did. Just like every silver age hero did. I really miss when heroes could start out on their own instead of having previous generations (heroes or not) do all the training, set all the rules, and judge them.  Really irked me during the early Post-COIE comics when new heroes didn't get the same freedom and independence to form that older generations of heroes did, but instead had to have older heroes drop by to either train them and grant approval or judge and chastise them.  It would have been *much* better IMO, if her father was a normal guy instead of being in a position to do all this. She could have done it herself, the way the old heroes got to.  That's what I was looking for.  No matter how wonderful the character is, she wasn't what I wanted.




> I bought it when I first read it. I had no expectation that Beth would ever return, because she's not a huge character like any of the Trinity or whatever.


A dead evil twin? No way.  Way too much dramatic potential to stay dead.  And early in a hero's career is the time to build up a rogue's gallery, so candidates really can't be killed off.  Joker supposedly died his first or second time out, but of course he didn't.  No one is dead without a very visible on-panel death and a body remaining in comic books. And she already had one fake death, so there was that.


I understand you see it differently - my problem is that I had a certain expectation based on what I'd read _about_ the character.  The first few issues of Detective Comics dashed my expectations of that by not having her in control and setting the course and making the decisions and getting to do all those things heroes used to get to do for themselves. And introduced a "bad" stepmother (a trope I don't like) and an evil twin (a trope I despise).  While it may become fantastic later, it just wasn't to my taste, wasn't what I wanted. As such, I have no personal feelings on Kate as a character, just disappointment for a premise that I think would have been better.  For how much I enjoyed the character before the elements I don't like came into play.  For me, she's a "what might've been" character.  Like I said before, if I hadn't gone in with high hopes for a specific aspect that was lacking, I'd likely have had different perspective (though not on the sister or stepmother).  But I had certain expectations that weren't met, so it was a disappointment, even if it might have been good without those expectations.

----------


## Caivu

> No, I take issue with an authority figure as a fellow worker in the hero businesses with her when I specifically thought (incorrectly) and chose to read her because she was unlike the Bat proteges specifically because she didn't have an authority figure like they did.


And she doesn't. Jacob isn't her boss. Your initial thought still seems to be correct.




> *Yes*, she is supposed to do that herself. Just like Bruce did. Just like every silver age hero did.





> my problem is that I had a certain expectation based on what I'd read about the character. The first few issues of Detective Comics dashed my expectations of that by not having her in control and setting the course and making the decisions and getting to do all those things heroes used to get to do for themselves.


So you basically just want her to be like every other superhero?  :Confused:

----------


## Agent Z

The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> I take issue with an _authority figure_ as a fellow worker in the hero businesses with her when I specifically thought (incorrectly) and chose to read her because she was unlike the Bat proteges specifically because she didn't have an authority figure like they did.


You won't like what happened with the 'Tec run of Gotham Knights, and her most recent solo then, since she became subordinate to Batman.  

Supposedly they were set up as equals for the Team, but really, since Batman was able to dismiss Batwoman from the Team and she obeyed - she was subordinate.  Plus he manipulated her into joining his team as a means of controlling her so she wouldn't join her father's Colony group - which by the way her father was trying to manipulate her into joining.  So she was caught between two male family members trying to control her and decide her future for her.  And don't get me started on all 3 of the Bat-Kids in the team, at some point,  using her as a punching bag (both verbally and physically) when she didn't behave in a way that they wanted.  Didn't see them physically smacking Batman around, though Steph did attack every other adult on the team besides Batman.  There was context, but it matters little, since the pattern repeated 3 times (on Batwoman, no other adult member of the team got such abuse from all 3 kids) so they all got a turn.

Furthermore, what I really didn't like with the second solo is, Batman ordered Batwoman to investigate a terrorist network, so she does.  On top of that, he sends Julia Pennyworth to babysit and spy on her, and they literally refer to her as a babysitter at one point, so it's not like they were even trying to hide it.  And if that wasn't enough, by the end of that solo Batwoman and Batman have a fight, because of course they do, with Batwoman pleading with Batman to not put her sister in Arkham and Batman deciding whether he'd let Batwoman stay in the city - the gall of it.

But the worst of the worst was after the creative team for the original solo was replaced - the replacement writer not only turned her into a ditz but had her repeatedly raped and mind controlled by a vampire, and then had the perpetrator victim-blame Batwoman by the end of it.

So I get where you are coming from, definitely.

That said, I still love Batwoman, but what keeps getting done with the character is frustrating.  I'm hopeful that the TV series does a better job of respecting the character.

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.


That's incredibly fair and accurate. What would be really fascinating to see is someone addressing them within the context of actual history. Having read half of Empires of the Silk Roads (Beckwith, Princeton University Press 2011), I desperately want to read something where the writers examine Ra's within the context of Eurasian history between 100-900. The fact that he's obviously Avar or Tocharian ought to be explored. I mean, have you considered Ra's and the collapse of the Turk Dynasty, the Arabic empire, the Tibetan empire, and the struggles of the Tang dynasty during the mid 700s which was all clearly a connected to each other and orchestrated through the Sogdians?

----------


## byrd156

> The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.


Everything is a trope or cliche at this point. So should DC just erase these characters/idea or what? How do you update them to not be outdated?

I thought the point was that the League was to be outdated idea. Since they are an ancient secret order that is hell bent on creating a perfect world. That kind of thinking doesn't really fly anymore and hasn't really for a really long time.

----------


## Agent Z

> Everything is a trope or cliche at this point.


This is as weak a response to what I said as you could possibly get.







> So should DC just erase these characters/idea or what?


You tell me, seeing as how I never suggested erasing them.




> How do you update them to not be outdated?


Not writing them as a mish-mash of vaguely defined Asian and Middle Eastern cultures would be a start. 

Of course, I'm sure any attempt to update them will likely be met with hostility from certain segments of fans.

----------


## byrd156

> This is as weak a response to what I said as you could possibly get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You tell me, seeing as how I never suggested erasing them.
> 
> 
> ...


I find complaining about tropes to be the basis for a weak start to an argument/point. Every story has been told, tropes/cliches are just foundations/shorthand for people to use and I only ever see people use the word trope(s) as a negative buzzword. 

I didn't say you suggested it, just wanted to know if you had a solution or idea in mind. That vaguely defined Asian/Middle eastern fusion to me felt like DC's Latveria or another Kandaq. Just another fictional area in the comic universe so I never thought of it as meant to be offensive/outdated or what have you. Just a made up culture for the world like the Dothraki in GoT.

And no I don't know what you mean. I only said what I mean when I think of the League of Assassins, about their order and way of doing things.

----------


## Agent Z

> I find complaining about tropes to be the basis for a weak start to an argument/point. Every story has been told, tropes/cliches are just foundations/shorthand for people to use and I only ever see people use the word trope(s) as a negative buzzword. 
> 
> I didn't say you suggested it, just wanted to know if you had a solution or idea in mind. That vaguely defined Asian/Middle eastern fusion to me felt like DC's Latveria or another Kandaq. Just another fictional area in the comic universe so I never thought of it as meant to be offensive/outdated or what have you. Just a made up culture for the world like the Dothraki in GoT.
> 
> And no I don't know what you mean. I only said what I mean when I think of the League of Assassins, about their order and way of doing things.


Here is my comment again: 




> The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of *outdated Orientalist* tropes.


Emphasis mine. I don't have an issue with tropes in and of themselves. I have a problem with bad, racist tropes like the ones the LoA embody. How you came to the conclusion I was complaining about tropes themselves I have no idea. 

"Everything is a cliche" is a weak argument because at no point was I complaining about them being cliche.

----------


## Jackalope89

I find those that complain about overused tropes, are overused tropes.

----------


## byrd156

> I find those that complain about overused tropes, are overused tropes.


Okay, how is that a controversial Batman opinion?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Okay, how is that a controversial Batman opinion?


It was merely in response to the previous few posts complaining about it. Wasn't really meant to be read as a new idea in the thread.

----------


## byrd156

> Here is my comment again: 
> 
> 
> 
> Emphasis mine. I don't have an issue with tropes in and of themselves. I have a problem with bad, racist tropes like the ones the LoA embody. How you came to the conclusion I was complaining about tropes themselves I have no idea. 
> 
> "Everything is a cliche" is a weak argument because at no point was I complaining about them being cliche.


You were complaining about the trope. Tropes and cliches often blend together. Like the old secret society of ninjas could be considered a trope right? If that trope is considered to be over-used it becomes cliche as-well. So that's where my line of thinking was so I don't think it's out of nowhere. It's not like bringing up the stock market or something. There's a relation. 

What has been racist about the LoA in recent years? I haven't read anything recent about them since Red Robin.

----------


## byrd156

> It was merely in response to the previous few posts complaining about it. Wasn't really meant to be read as a new idea in the thread.


Okay then.

----------


## Agent Z

> You were complaining about the trope. Tropes and cliches often blend together. Like the old secret society of ninjas could be considered a trope right? If that trope is considered to be over-used it becomes cliche as-well. So that's where my line of thinking was so I don't think it's out of nowhere. It's not like bringing up the stock market or something. There's a relation. 
> 
> What has been racist about the LoA in recent years? I haven't read anything recent about them since Red Robin.


Again, I am not complaining about this particular trope because it is overused. I am complaining about it being bad, plain and simple.

It's not recent years. It's pretty much everything about them since their conception. The aforementioned mish mash of Asian and Middle Eastern cultures that pretty much screams 1970s Orientalism.

----------


## Harpsikord

I completely forgot I created this thread. Anyway.

The idea of Dick leaving Nightwing behind to try and pursue a normal life isn't a bad concept. Ric Grayson is just the entirely wrong way to go about it.

----------


## Arsenal

> I completely forgot I created this thread. Anyway.
> 
> The idea of Dick leaving Nightwing behind to try and pursue a normal life isn't a bad concept. Ric Grayson is just the entirely wrong way to go about it.


How do you think it should be done?

----------


## Harpsikord

> How do you think it should be done?


No edgy amnesiac phase, for one thing. Dick is a very down to earth kind of character who's spent most of his life being a superhero - there was that time where Dick was just a police officer for a while when Cheyenne Freemont took over as Nightwing, something like that would probably work rather well.

----------


## Godlike13

> I completely forgot I created this thread. Anyway.
> 
> The idea of Dick leaving Nightwing behind to try and pursue a normal life isn't a bad concept. Ric Grayson is just the entirely wrong way to go about it.


I don't think thats controversial, lol.

----------


## Pohzee

> I completely forgot I created this thread. Anyway.
> 
> The idea of Dick leaving Nightwing behind to try and pursue a normal life isn't a bad concept. Ric Grayson is just the entirely wrong way to go about it.


I want the exact opposite. Let him go public and use Inc. to shield eyes from Bruce.

----------


## Tzigone

> I want the exact opposite. Let him go public and use Inc. to shield eyes from Bruce.


Not sure I'm reading this right - Dick destroying any chance at normal life for himself (if going public means revealing identity) to further Bruce's ends?  And working for Inc. -  serving Bruce's needs for the rest of his life and never ever being independent or having his own job or whatnot unrelated to Bruce?  Controversial, I'll grant you.

Although if you mean reveal his identity as Nightwing to the public, I don't see that shielding Bruce, but drawing more eyes to him.

----------


## Pohzee

A normal life never worked for Dick. He failed out of college. He's been fired from every job and lost every girlfriend. His intro the the first Dixon era trade is him lamenting about how much of a loser he his. So dump the baggage. Be a public superhero. Dick goes from a loser with a fake face to his cool genuine self.

And if people start asking about what Bruce's ward being Robin means for Bruce, he can claim that connections through Bruce's Batman Inc. rather than implicate Bruce as Batman directly.

----------


## Godlike13

That would be kind of the point or hook though, Dick leaving Nightwing behind to try and pursue a normal life when he has no idea how to even have a normal life. So how would that look, can he do it, what would he even do, and ultimately would it actually fulfill him or would he realize being superhero truly is his calling. There could be meat there. I'd take that over him just bitching about how he doesn't want to be a superhero as does exactly that as a sidekick to a bunch of nobodies.

----------


## Arsenal

I’m not sure how appealing it would be to read a story about Dick trying to discover a life without Nightwing knowing damn well that it leads right back to Nightwing. That honestly just feels like filler until those in charge figure out what to do with him next.

----------


## Godlike13

Thats fair, and what he tries to do for a living to do would be important. Cause "normal" isn't really what people look for with these characters. But ultimately leading back to Nightwing isn't necessarily be a bad thing, ideally the journey would lead to a better overall and refreshed Nightwing. After that maybe one doesn't waste readers time with having him get a mundane job like bus boy, counselor, or personal trainer again. Or with that time, and depending if people respond to certain things, they actually find that other career path for him and integrate it into his overall mythos.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

Dick ought to be the Sam Axe of the DC verse. He's friends with everyone, even some villains, and heroes come to him looking for help

----------


## WonderNight

> Dick ought to be the Sam Axe of the DC verse. He's friends with everyone, even some villains, and heroes come to him looking for help


how can dick be interact with everyone if he's isolated in bludhevan? They would need a reason to go come bludhevan or dick would need a reason to leave bludhevan. 

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just make the nightwing solo into a globetrotting team up book? Honestly just make nightwing the lead of whatever organization comes out of the leviathan event.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Morrison Dick is OOC. As OOC as Jason or talia or Bruce compared to the classic versions.

----------


## Tzigone

> how can dick be interact with everyone if he's isolated in bludhevan? They would need a reason to go come bludhevan or dick would need a reason to leave bludhevan. 
> 
> Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just make the nightwing solo into a globetrotting team up book? Honestly just make nightwing the lead of whatever organization comes out of the leviathan event.


I don't like mobile heroes. I like a homebase and steady supporting cast for comics I read.  And I want a Nightwing (and Dick Grayson) I can like.

----------


## WonderNight

> I don't like mobile heroes. I like a homebase and steady supporting cast for comics I read.  And I want a Nightwing (and Dick Grayson) I can like.


And I want what's best for the character.

----------


## Pohzee

> Morrison Dick is OOC. As OOC as Jason or talia or Bruce compared to the classic versions.


That’s a good one. Can you explain?

----------


## lemonpeace

as callus as it may sound, they need to cripple Barbara again.

and it needs to be by Harley Quinn

----------


## Arsenal

> as callus as it may sound, they need to cripple Barbara again.
> 
> and it needs to be by Harley Quinn


Why? (to both)

----------


## phonogram12

> Morrison Dick is OOC. As OOC as Jason or talia or Bruce compared to the classic versions.


#accurate

10 characters

----------


## phonogram12

Damien's only every been tolerable when written by Peter Tomasi. Morrison's is literally my least favorite version.

Bruce should be middle aged. The fact that TPTB even pretend that he's still in his 30s is preposterous.

Post-Crisis, Selina with long hair is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

----------


## byrd156

> as callus as it may sound, they need to cripple Barbara again.
> 
> and it needs to be by Harley Quinn


It's not callus, she was a great disabled hero. Scrapping that was a bad move.

Why Harley?

----------


## Restingvoice

No sexual harassment, just a giant mallet?

----------


## nhienphan2808

> That’s a good one. Can you explain?


I can only try, because out of all he is the one that SEEMS right also he helped Damian, so he's often overlooked in terms of Morrison OOC-ness. 

He is OOC the way Jason is OOC, self-pity. Now we readers know Jason needs help seriously. And he might or might not be salvaged. But Jason doesnt know that. He wouldn't say things like "i cant be saved anymore.", He knows what he believes in. The Dick that came before Morrison isnt that self-conscious. He has better control and planning over the projection of himself. Think whatever you want about his real abilities vs acting, but Under Winick he said "Damian can't see me doubting myself" but Morrison's Dick is more unhinged, impulsive,  lets Damian insult him, and says things like "i dont know shit about business,, im an acrobat!!!!" Dude you lived with Bruce Wayne and went to business school and taught Tim. Act proud and detective-y better. 

He is OOC the way Bruce is OOC, ie different view of the legend of Batman and Robin. Bruce took in Jason because he loves family and wanted a child that's beside him like Dick was. Morrison Bruce forced Jason to dye his hair to look like Dick . It's creepy and showed Bruce's obsession with the past, which classic Bruce got depression straight from. He created Batman Inc because he wanted Batman to continue as a family tradition. It should be the reverse. Bruce doesnt want Batman to continue, for Batman is only him, but Dick, the one who's past-oriented, says it needs to. Also "Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore" is nice but Dick never says that explicitly. He doesnt care about how special he is. He might not "like" it, but he was open to people fighting, continue the tradition. I know he said that in a flashback as a child, but again, too self-consicious and idealistic for Dick.

He is OOC the way Talia is OOC, motivation. Robin didn't come as "colour" and "Light", he comes as a moral compass. The Dickbats that was with Tim # Damian's Dickbats. Damian should be a child for him to care for to complete his development, not insults and points out to him why he is Batman again.  Tim's Dick, who was in every other book at that same time,  thinks closer to Tim, actually doesnt understand or like Damian. He's also family oriented, he doesn't symphathise that much with either Tim or Damian as individuals, He's much harsher about what he wants them to be as his family. ("Get in the damn car Damian", "What more do you want Damian, you are wearing that suit.") Non-Morrison Damian couldn't get that close to him emotionally except in fighting experiences. Damian would get more emotional support for what he individually values from Bruce by Tomasi.

Wow this got long and nitpicking, but i have to get that feeling out in words. I do think a lot of these is due to Morrison's liking of the IDEA of these characters. He discarded the post crisis timeline, so they feel very static instead of developing though a long timeline. Like it's true Bruce would continue Batman either way, but slowly realising it, is better than "Batman should be inc because my dad was Batman" in the first place. And Dick isn't JUST idealistic or the best for Batman, because he was, it's that he has gone though Jason and Tim and enough bullshit in his life; Morrison Dick never had Tim. 

Oh and also "Bruce IS dead Tim" in every other book and throwing not-even-Bruce into the Pit. 

Do i personally like a lighter, happy and more genuine Dick and that Dick taught Damian his ideals of himself rather than a Dick that's past-oriented and oppressive ? Yes. OOC is still OOC. And he's twisted so he could partner with a Bruce that i hate, so i stay away from him.

----------


## lemonpeace

> It's not callus, she was a great disabled hero. Scrapping that was a bad move.
> 
> Why Harley?





> Why? (to both)


I feel her time as Oracle and having her come to terms with being disabled was a powerful and interesting move for the character that I think was more distinct than her being another bat-characters. I am a firm believer that the batfamily should start as extensions of him like Batgirl or Robin but should eventually move on to their own unique role. Her time as Oracle feels more independant and significant (to me) than her being Batgirl. The inciting incident was gratuitous and a little grotesque but I feel Oracle was a great idea that came from it in response.

Why Harley? I'm just not a fan of Harley as a "hero" or anti-hero. It feels like the deadpool/venom effect, a cool looking villain character gets popular so they HAVE to be a hero now. I would like Harley to go back to being a villain and I think her betraying and crippling Barbara would be the best move to kick her off on that path.

----------


## byrd156

> I feel her time as Oracle and having her come to terms with being disabled was a powerful and interesting move for the character that I think was more distinct than her being another bat-characters. I am a firm believer that the batfamily should start as extensions of him like Batgirl or Robin but should eventually move on to their own unique role. Her time as Oracle feels more independant and significant (to me) than her being Batgirl. The inciting incident was gratuitous and a little grotesque but I feel Oracle was a great idea that came from it in response.
> 
> Why Harley? I'm just not a fan of Harley as a "hero" or anti-hero. It feels like the deadpool/venom effect, a cool looking villain character gets popular so they HAVE to be a hero now. I would like Harley to go back to being a villain and I think her betraying and crippling Barbara would be the best move to kick her off on that path.


I hate hero/anti-hero Harley as well but giving her Bab's crippling is dumb. Create new important universe events. Taking important events, costumes, relationships, etc and passing them off to another character is just lazy. Even having it happen with the Joker there and Harley was an accomplice, that would still be a lazy retcon/new version but it's better than just loaning it out like a $5 dollar bill. If things can just change or be given to another character so willy-nilly no one is unique or interesting anymore.

----------


## lemonpeace

> I hate hero/anti-hero Harley as well but giving her Bab's crippling is dumb. Create new important universe events. Taking important events, costumes, relationships, etc and passing them off to another character is just lazy. Even having it happen with the Joker there and Harley was an accomplice, that would still be a lazy retcon/new version but it's better than just loaning it out like a $5 dollar bill. If things can just change or be given to another character so willy-nilly no one is unique or interesting anymore.


I disagree, I think it's the most logic way to accomplish both things I need to do. Killing Joke still happened (apparently), so for Batgirl to be crippled again it wouldn't make sense to have the Joker do it. to respect the character's growth it would only be logical that Babs wouldn't let herself be caught lacking like that again. she would need to be caught off guard; enter Harley. they've been playing up Batgirl and Harley Quinn's friendship for a minute, so it would make sense that Harley would be someone who could catch her slipping. If we are going to have Harley Quinn stick as a villain (for a time at least) she can't just do something heinous (she already murdered a bunch of kids), it has to be brutal and definitive. to have her betray someone who believed in her, not just crippling but RE-crippling them, she's taking away that bodily agency Barbara fought so hard to regain after Killing Job, that's would be the kind of mark that don't easily rub off. She's throwing a middle finger to the Joker, to Batman, and taking a major player (in their current form at least) off the table.

----------


## Godlike13

Terrible. First you keep referring to it as if its Babs fault, her "being caught lacking" and "slipping". And whats more you want Harley to do it yet still make it about Batman and Joker. Making Babs her victim so she can "throw a middle finger" to them. So a big no thanks to that.

If they were to put that genie back it the bottle, not that I think they should as her not being able to use her legs should not be a requirement for Oracle, then it should be from Babs doing something heroic and awesome. Like she gets hurt saving the universe or something. Not so someone else can get more villain cred, or somehow stick it to Batman and Joker.

----------


## Timothy Hunter

I agree that Barbara Gordon should step down from the Bat mantle and become Oracle again (Unless you want a wheelchair Batgirl.), but I think crippling her again would seen repetative and gratuitous. Just revert her to her Pre Flashpoint status quo via Doctor Manhattan.

----------


## Jackalope89

I don't think Babs should be re-crippled just to be Oracle again. Could be 100 reasons why she would prefer to be behind the monitor than out in the field without sticking her in a wheelchair again.

And when she steps back from it, Cass could be given the mantle, or even Steph (that both were robbed of their time under the mantle and under Babs' tutelage is still awful).

----------


## Blue22

I didn't realize this was an unpopular opinion until recently but....The original Robin costume should stay dead and buried.

Also, I completely agree about making Babs Oracle again and giving Batgirl to Cass or Steph. Not so much Bout crippling her again though. And definitely not Harley doing it (I actually..like hero Harley)

----------


## Tzigone

> I don't think Babs should be re-crippled just to be Oracle again. Could be 100 reasons why she would prefer to be behind the monitor than out in the field without sticking her in a wheelchair again.
> 
> And when she steps back from it, Cass could be given the mantle, or even Steph (that both were robbed of their time under the mantle and under Babs' tutelage is still awful).


I agree on that she should not be re-crippled.  And I don't see why she shouldn't run a team and occasionally get into the field (something she really enjoyed).  Or even do so often.  While I didn't mind it, I felt her doing intel for the JL and stuff was kind of a manufactured role - everyone managed their own research and many worked fine without someone at headquarters directing them before they needed something for paralyzed Barbara to do.  Plus, wheelchair-runs-the-show is kind of a trope.  I mean, there was Calder and Professor X.  And when you extend it to the person running the show being someone who just can't do the physical stuff, the list gets much, much longer.  

Her running her own team works much better for me than intel for others, though, because it seems less like an unnecessary role created to fit her needs.  But I enjoyed her at Batgirl in the old days (as well as as Oracle), and see no reason she shouldn't stay in the field. Just not as a de-aged Batgirl, not taken to an earlier, less-mature point in her life. New code name, and not de-aged would be my preference, but I just don't think they're going to let her and Dick be the ages they should be, that we saw them grow to.  Ages Batman too much.

As for the second part - I want more people having their own codenames instead of re-using old ones (this especially applies to adult characters), and kinda thought Batgirl was a demotion for Steph (which I know no one agrees with, but I much preferred her as Spoiler, thematically speaking), and a bad message overall (yay - she gets validation from the people who treated her like crap).  So if someone has to take it, then Cass, again with a mentor/student thing going on with Barbara.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I agree on that she should not be re-crippled.  And I don't see why she shouldn't run a team and occasionally get into the field (something she really enjoyed).  Or even do so often.  While I didn't mind it, I felt her doing intel for the JL and stuff was kind of a manufactured role - everyone managed their own research and many worked fine without someone at headquarters directing them before they needed something for paralyzed Barbara to do.  Plus, wheelchair-runs-the-show is kind of a trope.  I mean, there was Calder and Professor X.  And when you extend it to the person running the show being someone who just can't do the physical stuff, the list gets much, much longer.


Eh, could be she retires from the field because of family reasons or something (barring something drastic happening).   



> Her running her own team works much better for me than intel for others, though, because it seems less like an unnecessary role created to fit her needs.  But I enjoyed her at Batgirl in the old days (as well as as Oracle), and see no reason she shouldn't stay in the field. Just not as a de-aged Batgirl, not taken to an earlier, less-mature point in her life. New code name, and not de-aged would be my preference, but I just don't think they're going to let her and Dick be the ages they should be, that we saw them grow to.  Ages Batman too much.


Meh to "aging Batman" too much. Make the old fart 50+, and a grandpa to Dick's kids (if not Jason's as well by this point). 




> As for the second part - I want more people having their own codenames instead of re-using old ones (this especially applies to adult characters), and kinda thought Batgirl was a demotion for Steph (which I know no one agrees with, but I much preferred her as Spoiler, thematically speaking), and a bad message overall (yay - she gets validation from the people who treated her like crap).  So if someone has to take it, then Cass, again with a mentor/student thing going on with Barbara.


While short, Steph's run as Batgirl was pretty fun, and added her own element to it. Just like Cass did, and Babs before both. DC is known for its legacy characters, and DiDio can stuff it on that part.

----------


## kingaliencracker

Dick Grayson should be Robin, at or around 12-years-old.

BOOM!

----------


## Jackalope89

Bruce should be a senior citizen, and the "grumpy old grandpa" that ends up doing whatever his grandkids say.
Dick should be in his 30s, and a parent of at least Mar'i Grayson (marital status in the air)
Jason in his mid-to-late 20s, possibly a parent, but a doting uncle that can be a bit too over protective.
Tim finally off the coffee, with a mini-horde of kids (maybe with Steph). 
Damian in his final years of high school, having mellowed out overall, though not above tricking others to do his bidding. Often hangs out with Jon, getting into shenanigans.

Babs still keeps an eye on the Boys Wonder, though now looking to follow in her father's footsteps as a cop. Whether she and Dick are together, or just friends, don't know.
Cass, by day, is the lead dancer for the Gotham Ballet Troupe, and Bat Orphan by night. She spends time getting to know the others as well.
Steph is going through college with Tim, possibly WITH Tim, to be a social worker.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick Grayson should be Robin, at or around 12-years-old.
> 
> BOOM!


He was robin at 12
8-12-15
it doesnt matter

Bruces still has to age

----------


## kingaliencracker

> He was robin at 12
> 8-12-15
> it doesnt matter
> 
> Bruces still has to age


I guess my point is, Bruce would always be around 35-40, while Dick will always be around 12-15.  

I don't really need nor want to see these characters age.

----------


## Cmbmool

Grant Morrison Batman is overrated and completely complexing. 

Tim should retire from the Batman family. 

Jason Todd is better off dead than alive.   

There should be a new Oracle within the DCU. 

Cass and Stephanie belong as members of the Batman family.  

Stephanie time as Robin should have been longer and she should have lived from her first demise.


Scott Snyder Batman should be seen as an alternative reality/world of Batman.

----------


## Tzigone

> I guess my point is, Bruce would always be around 35-40, while Dick will always be around 12-15.  
> 
> I don't really need nor want to see these characters age.


Why 35-40 for Bruce when he started out more like 25?  I get not wanting them to age (though I don't agree), but why age up Bruce a decade first?




> DC is known for its legacy characters, and DiDio can stuff it on that part.


I don't care about Didio, it's just my opinion that characters deserve their own identities and names.  And I loved Impulse not being Kid Flash (but look what happened).  Also makes it much easier to scan summaries and search tags IRL.  Also because I think it'd cut down on inter-fanbase squabbling over who the best to bear the name is or comparing all latercomers to the "real" whatever-name-it-is.   And I don't care for a grown woman to switch to a code name with "girl" in the title.

----------


## kingaliencracker

> Why 35-40 for Bruce when he started out more like 25?  I get not wanting them to age (though I don't agree), but why age up Bruce a decade first?.


My feeling is that most of the prominent heroes (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc.) would have started about 10 years ago, similar to the Zero Hour timeline. So all would be about 35 or thereabouts. With Robin or any of the sidekicks for that matter, they would have only been around for a couple of years at most.

----------


## Tzigone

> My feeling is that most of the prominent heroes (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc.) would have started about 10 years ago, similar to the Zero Hour timeline. So all would be about 35 or thereabouts. With Robin or any of the sidekicks for that matter, they would have only been around for a couple of years at most.


Ah, that doesn't work for me.  I'm very tied to Robin early in Batman's career, since he appeared so very early in the golden age.

----------


## Blue22

> Cass and Stephanie belong as members of the Batman family.


That's a controversial opinion?

----------


## byrd156

> That's a controversial opinion?


It is the DC higher ups apparently.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> It is the DC higher ups apparently.


Yup! And I share your controversial opinion 100%.

----------


## Tzigone

> So you basically just want her to be like every other superhero?


No.  I wanted her to be like the more independent heroes of yesteryear and *less like* the more newly introduced heroes that are so often subordinate/answerable to someone else.  To set her own goals, arrange her own training, be self-funding, make her own decisions, forge her own destiny. Rather than being somewhat guided/hand-held/managed by someone else, like so many new heroes get. As I said, I was sold on her *not* being a protege, and she was a protege (Jacob's).  Just like all Batman's proteges (including an unfortunately retconned Barbara -  he managed their training, he funded them, he set up tests, he made rules, etc. even if some eventually outgrew the role).  That's exactly what Jacob did for Kate.  She's less self-guiding and less in-control than early Batman - not the equal footing I was told I would get.  As I said, if I hadn't read an article/blog post that specifically highlighted that she wasn't supposed to be all that, I likely wouldn't have cared.  But to me, she was every bit what those proteges were (in contrast to Batman, who set out independently and managed everything himself and answered to no one), only with Jacob in place of Bruce.  Hell, he's even a parent, just as Bruce was to so many of his proteges.

----------


## Agent Z

> No.  I wanted her to be like the more independent heroes of yesteryear than the more newly introduced heroes that are all subordinate to someone else.  To set her own goals, arrange her own training, be self-funding, make her own decisions, forge her own destiny. Rather than being guided/hand-held/managed by someone else, like so many new heroes get. As I said, I was sold on her *not* being a protege, and she was a protege (Jacob's).  Just like all Batman's proteges.  Less self-guiding and less in-control than Batman - not the equal footing I was told I would get.


What new heroes are being hand held by someone else? And how are they being hand held as opposed to just having people who help them out like plenty of heroes of yester year have had?

----------


## Caivu

> No.  I wanted her to be like the more independent heroes of yesteryear and less like the more newly introduced heroes that are so often subordinate/answerable to someone else.  To set her own goals, arrange her own training, be self-funding, make her own decisions, forge her own destiny. Rather than being somewhat guided/hand-held/managed by someone else, like so many new heroes get. *As I said, I was sold on her not being a protege, and she was a protege (Jacob's).*  Just like all Batman's proteges (including an unfortunately retconned Barbara -  he managed their training, he funded them, he set up tests, he made rules, etc. even if some eventually outgrew the role).  That's exactly what Jacob did for Kate.  She's less self-guiding and less in-control than early Batman - not the equal footing I was told I would get.  *As I said, if I hadn't read an article/blog post that specifically highlighted that she wasn't supposed to be all that, I likely wouldn't have cared.*  But to me, she was every bit what those proteges were (in contrast to Batman, who set out independently and managed everything himself and answered to no one), only with Jacob in place of Bruce.  Hell, he's even a parent, just as Bruce was to so many of his proteges.


If all this hinges on the bolded parts... why don't you just change your initial view, since it turned out to be mistaken, or based on misleading info? You're basically letting something that was never true in the first place color your opinion, even in light of the correct information.

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## Tzigone

> What new heroes are being hand held by someone else? And how are they being hand held as opposed to just having people who help them out like plenty of heroes of yester year have had?


Well - "new" in this case means "post-crisis."  And I'd say plenty.  It works okay with Kon-El or Jaime Reyes in their early days, since they are younger, but they definitely have heroes come around to encourage them and tell them they are doing well (or alternately castigate them).  Judgement and condemnation got piled on Booster and Huntress by senior heroes.  Back when the silver age heroes were heroes, they had team-ups, but they were always peer-to-peer.  No training provided, no casting judgement, and most especially no junior-to-senior dynamic.  Early post-crisis really drove me crazy with this.  They wanted to use established heroes to guest for sales, I guess, but it was extremely frustrating to read new heroes not allowed the space to grow independently and had to receive either validation or confirmation from the senior class.  And, as it seems like more and more heroes are legacy now, they are more and more tied to previous "generations" they are more likely to be trained by others than to set manage their own training, more likely to be judged (as good or not), more likely to be funded by others, and overall, IMO, less allowed to be really independent of their mentors.  That they even have specific, continually involved mentors, is something that sets them apart.  Which wouldn't matter so much if it was only a few, but it certainly feels like a large percentage of the new ones to me.  As I said previously (not sure on this thread), a lot of it is the more integrated nature of comics (they didn't mix fandoms as much back when), and that later there were a lot more pre-existing heroes still around and in the same world, but to me I do feel like new heroes don't get the same freedom and independence that old ones did.  It's frustrating to me to see a character that got to do things their own way without any interference (Superman, Batman, etc.) come and criticize and try to control new generations because they aren't allowed the same opportunity.

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## Agent Z

> Well - "new" in this case means "post-crisis."  And I'd say plenty.  It works okay with Kon-El or Jaime Reyes in their early days, since they are younger, but they definitely have heroes come around to encourage them and tell them they are doing well (or alternately castigate them).  Judgement and condemnation got piled on Booster and Huntress by senior heroes.  Back when the silver age heroes were heroes, they had team-ups, but they were always peer-to-peer.  No training provided, no casting judgement, and most especially no junior-to-senior dynamic.  Early post-crisis really drove me crazy with this.  They wanted to use established heroes to guest for sales, I guess, but it was extremely frustrating to read new heroes not allowed the space to grow independently and had to receive either validation or confirmation from the senior class.  And, as it seems like more and more heroes are legacy now, they are more and more tied to previous "generations" they are more likely to be trained by others than to set manage their own training, more likely to be judged (as good or not), more likely to be funded by others, and overall, IMO, less allowed to be really independent of their mentors.  That they even have specific, continually involved mentors, is something that sets them apart.  Which wouldn't matter so much if it was only a few, but it certainly feels like a large percentage of the new ones to me.  As I said previously (not sure on this thread), a lot of it is the more integrated nature of comics (they didn't mix fandoms as much back when), and that later there were a lot more pre-existing heroes still around and in the same world, but to me I do feel like new heroes don't get the same freedom and independence that old ones did.  It's frustrating to me to see a character that got to do things their own way without any interference (Superman, Batman, etc.) come and criticize and try to control new generations because they aren't allowed the same opportunity.


Bare in mind that Kon and Jaime are teenagers and did need guidance just like previous teen superheroes did. Booster and Huntress were pretty independent and didn't actually have mentors or people holding their hands. Well those people weren't the other heroes any way. In Booster's case people just dumped on him for not taking things seriously and in Huntress' case she was more a foil than Bruce's side kick and she told him to screw off plenty of times and made it clear she didn't really need his approval.

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## Tzigone

> If all this hinges on the bolded parts... why don't you just change your initial view, since it turned out to be mistaken, or based on misleading info? You're basically letting something that was never true in the first place color your opinion, even in light of the correct information.


I have correct information.  The thing is - what I wanted isn't what I got. _And I think what I wanted was superior to what I got_ (that's the controversial opinion). As I said, I view Batwoman as a missed opportunity.  Something that could have been great, but wasn't. She and her setup were just "meh."  I like a bit or two. But with the other things I didn't like (stepmother as unlikeable, evil twin), it was already an uphilll battle.  I was going to say "There's nothing _wrong_ with her as she is, but there was also nothing in those issues that grabbed or made me love the character. " but yes, there is something wrong to me - I'm really tired of heroes that don't get to be fully in charge of themselves. Jacob set up everything, and he controlled the funding. It's not a setup I enjoyed - it's one I dislike. I don't like someone else holding all that power over an adult hero (I also associate it heavily with some of my most disliked attributes of Bruce, and her with a bat on her chest is going to be a reminder).  It was not enjoyable to me.  It may  have changed later, but I'm not going to read something I don't enjoy just because it might get good later.




> Bare in mind that Kon and Jaime are teenagers and did need guidance just like previous teen superheroes did. Booster and Huntress were pretty independent and didn't actually have mentors or people holding their hands. Well those people weren't the other heroes any way. In Booster's case people just dumped on him for not taking things seriously and in Huntress' case she was more a foil than Bruce's side kick and she told him to screw off plenty of times.


That's why the slashes, sort of.  Some get handheld.  Some get trained.  Some get comforted.  Some get castigated. Few get all of those.  I'm much more comfortable with it with teens.  And I was *much* more okay with Guy's or Peacemaker's open offer than Bruce's surreptitious funding (I really don't like him using money that way; I feel it gives him too much control or indebts others to him too much, even unknowingly).  I was _thrilled_ when Jaime told Barbara to take a hike, because her methods were intentionally intrusive and probably a bit intentionally intimidating/awing.  But even with the adult heroes, it becomes so important that we (or they) know what senior heroes think of them.  Whether they find them worthy or want to insult them.  I'm not talking about sidekickness with Huntress. I'm talking about him showing up in her comic and trying to "school" her.  He may even be right.  Which is worse in a way, because it diminishes the new hero in the eyes of the readers because they get good advice they don't take.  Again, that works better for teens than adults.  And you can say senior heroes do that to each other.  And they do. But they all had years to build up reps before that happened.  And they are confronted by people who regard them as peers, not rookies who need to be taught.  But for some of those adult heroes, they had older (pre-existant) heroes just basically show up and tell them what to do. Whether or not they did what they were told, they are at least partially defined by their reactions to those interventions.  Very few just work alone, then meet the older heroes on equal footing as peers.  While I expect fans to have a hierarchy, I don't like in-universe heroes perceiving other adult heroes in such fashion at all (and it's been used as a joke way too many times, too).  I would like heroes to be regard newbies as implicit equals rather than juniors until they prove themselves unworthy of it.  And once one has established hero cred, s/he should be seen as an equal.  Not everyone has the same power, of course, and not everyone will get along, and they won't _all_ respect each other, and that's okay.  But I don't think one adult hero should regard another as lesser in the sense of "rank" ...I guess.  I don't really have the words.  But one shouldn't feel that it's inherently their place to instruct, validate, or judge another _as a person senior to them_.  It's one of the reasons I like the JL not to have a particular leader and especially not to have one group (Trinity, Big Seven, etc.) the "boss" of the others.  Once they're there, they should regard each other as equals, even if the readers don't.

EDIT: Shoutout to Wally - who originally was a teen who did not get any particular training or instruction, but immediately went to working on his own rather than sidekicking. Retconned to an extent later, but it was nice.

----------


## Caivu

> Jacob set up everything, *and he controlled the funding.*





> I don't like someone else holding all that power over an adult hero


You're still overemphasizing the actual amount of power Jacob had over her. He didn't control her funding or have executive power over her or something. That's simply not the case, nor was it ever.

----------


## TheRay

I liked how Robin killed Nightwing in Injustice.

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## Arctic Cyclist

> I liked how Robin killed Nightwing in Injustice.


Honestly? I do too as it highlights the hypocrisy of Bruce and the other "heroes," especially since Dick's death is a direct result of Harley Quinn's actions as are all the deaths in the entire series except for Jim Gordon's. Sure, Damian should not have thrown the escrima stick. However, he had done it hundreds of times before without any harm to Dick, he was 13, angry, and needed some level of stability in his life for a moment particularly after having just been carried off by Solomon Grundry.

It's a scene that highlights how children are treated after accidentally causing the deaths of a family member by other family members: they themselves become orphans and outcasts even in cases where they have good, upstanding, ethical and moral parents, who love them unconditionally. You know, people who are the opposite of most versions of Bruce Wayne.

Dick's death is at the core of the theme of Injustice as it was an accident caused by a child who is held responsible for it and all other actions of the adults around him, yet Harley Quinn who is an adult, has shades of pedophilia in her character, and is shown unequivocally to be fully cognizant and aware of the consequences of her actions as well as a willing participant not a coerced victim walks free of all guilt and consequences.

At the core of the series, Superman was right. Everything that happened was Bruce's fault. Had Harley been brought in to face a court of law not in Gotham she would have been tried, convicted, and received lethal injection. The world would have have healed. 

It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.

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## Jackalope89

> Honestly? I do too as it highlights the hypocrisy of Bruce and the other "heroes," especially since Dick's death is a direct result of Harley Quinn's actions as are all the deaths in the entire series except for Jim Gordon's. Sure, Damian should not have thrown the escrima stick. However, he had done it hundreds of times before without any harm to Dick, he was 13, angry, and needed some level of stability in his life for a moment particularly after having just been carried off by Solomon Grundry.
> 
> It's a scene that highlights how children are treated after accidentally causing the deaths of a family member by other family members: they themselves become orphans and outcasts even in cases where they have good, upstanding, ethical and moral parents, who love them unconditionally. You know, people who are the opposite of most versions of Bruce Wayne.
> 
> Dick's death is at the core of the theme of Injustice as it was an accident caused by a child who is held responsible for it and all other actions of the adults around him, yet Harley Quinn who is an adult, has shades of pedophilia in her character, and is shown unequivocally to be fully cognizant and aware of the consequences of her actions as well as a willing participant not a coerced victim walks free of all guilt and consequences.
> 
> At the core of the series, Superman was right. Everything that happened was Bruce's fault. Had Harley been brought in to face a court of law not in Gotham she would have been tried, convicted, and received lethal injection. The world would have have healed. 
> 
> It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.


Not going to argue that Harley was a main cause of most the issues, Supes isn't exactly absolved either. He brutally murdered Ollie (a guy as opposed to killing as Bruce is). Nearly wiped out new Metropolis and Gotham as "examples", murdered Shazam/Billy for NOT wanting to kill all of those people...

Yeah. Supes lost whatever pedestal he had throughout the series.

Honestly, Jason Todd had the best balance. He did kill bad people, but he never went to being a global dictator. Strictly about protecting the innocent.

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## Arctic Cyclist

> Not going to argue that Harley was a main cause of most the issues, Supes isn't exactly absolved either. He brutally murdered Ollie (a guy as opposed to killing as Bruce is). Nearly wiped out new Metropolis and Gotham as "examples", murdered Shazam/Billy for NOT wanting to kill all of those people...
> 
> Yeah. Supes lost whatever pedestal he had throughout the series.
> 
> Honestly, Jason Todd had the best balance. He did kill bad people, but he never went to being a global dictator. Strictly about protecting the innocent.


Injustice is an interesting "What if?" situation with The Kingdom Universe. In both, the Joker kills Lois and most of Metropolis and then is killed by Superman.  In the Kingdom, Clark recieved support and compassion from Bruce (and Selina is written realistically as unredeemable and ends up with the Riddler). There are no Robins but Dick, and Damian doesn't technically exist as Talia had successfully evaded her family to carry the baby to term and give him a few years of a happy childhood before Grandpa found him. These things are the various lines that create a different universe, one where the last twenty years of Batman's life are filled with joy, happiness, live, and family.

Notably, there's no Harley Quinn, no BatCat as a feasible romance, and Steve Trevor was not a Nazi. Hence a happy ending for the survivors, unlike Injustice which has no happy ending only more injustice piled up on every victim, except Jason who once again demonstrates that he's the actual smart one.

I absolutely hate how Seely gave Bruce redemption in Injustice vs Masters. Injustice Bruce was never defined as or shown to be a loving, caring parent nor did he deserve any devotion from Damian. The original Trinity should have died, along with Harley and most of their generation, to pave the way for Damian and Kara to rebuild the world as like Nala and Simba in The Lion King.

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## Blue22

> It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.


Which is exactly why I've never been against Jason and Damian's ways of doing things (even if Damian's way in Teen Titans was VERY flawed). For someone who knows just how corrupt Gotham (and the US government as a whole) is, Bruce sure does love leaving the dangerous criminals on their doorsteps. Knowing full well, they'll be out in about a week. Is this really the crusade against crime that he wanted so badly? Stopping criminals and murderers only to send them to the same Asylum that they routinely escape from? Hell, as much as I support BatCat, even that's all kinds of fucked up considering given Bruce's supposed stance on crime. For fuck's sake, she even stole her wedding dress. Bruce is a hypocrite. And he's just as responsible for all the crime related deaths in Gotham City as the madmen that he has put in time out for five minutes.

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## lemonpeace

Duke Thomas could wash Tim Drake in straight-up hand-to-hand combat.

----------


## dietrich

> Not going to argue that Harley was a main cause of most the issues, Supes isn't exactly absolved either. He brutally murdered Ollie (a guy as opposed to killing as Bruce is). Nearly wiped out new Metropolis and Gotham as "examples", murdered Shazam/Billy for NOT wanting to kill all of those people...
> 
> Yeah. Supes lost whatever pedestal he had throughout the series.
> 
> *Honestly, Jason Todd had the best balance. He did kill bad people, but he never went to being a global dictator. Strictly about protecting the innocent.*


What?! Are you Joking?  Jason was a hired killer for Ra's [a Dictator] as they tried to wipe out majority of humanity .Jason tried to kill an innocent child and he was just a hired goon so he had no principles. Surly you are kidding when you say he had the best balance? You are being selective and incorrect.

Damian and Brainac those two were the ones that Taylor said are the halfway point between the two extremes that are Superman and Batman. 
Damian was the one that got Jason to quit being a goon for Ra's and think of what is right. Damian's the one who got Jason into protecting the innocent. 
Damian is the Bat that spent his evenings still patrolling and protecting the innocent. Sometimes with Kara. We never saw Jason protecting the innocent.

Damian was the only Bat shown to care strictly about protecting the innocents. That's his whole thing. The reason why he went against his dad. The reason why he took down Ra's. The reason he was out every night and the reason why in the spin off he gathers the resistance and overthrows Superman

----------


## dietrich

> Duke Thomas could wash Tim Drake in straight-up hand-to-hand combat.


That's not unpopular or even debated. That's just what is  :Cool:

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## Jackalope89

> What?! Are you Joking?  Jason was a hired killer for Ra's [a Dictator] as they tried to wipe out majority of humanity .Jason tried to kill an innocent child and he was just a hired goon so he had no principles. Surly you are kidding when you say he had the best balance? You are being selective and incorrect.
> 
> Damian and Brainac those two were the ones that Taylor said are the halfway point between the two extremes that are Superman and Batman. 
> Damian was the one that got Jason to quit being a goon for Ra's and think of what is right. Damian's the one who got Jason into protecting the innocent. 
> Damian is the Bat that spent his evenings still patrolling and protecting the innocent. Sometimes with Kara. We never saw Jason protecting the innocent.
> 
> Damian was the only Bat shown to care strictly about protecting the innocents. That's his whole thing. The reason why he went against his dad. The reason why he took down Ra's. The reason he was out every night and the reason why in the spin off he gathers the resistance and overthrows Superman


Video game ending man.

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## dietrich

Who knew CBR polls were facts. Both Talia and Selina are bad. A criminal is a criminal. Sure I would rather get stolen from than killed but Bruce never even tries to ever arrest Talia. Selina often gets wrangled banged in handcuffs and thrown in jail by batsy but not the killer[well mass since both ladies are killers]

That is what I dislike about Batman. He is a hypocrite and not a good person a lot of the time. He lets criminals off so long as they are hot or because he's horny. After Damian's death he was still smitten with Talia. Still snogging her. I felt like screaming "Your kid is dead man!".

That's my unpopular opinion Batman is a questionable as a hero and he clearly discriminates against male villains

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## dietrich

> Video game ending man.


No that comics we are talking about the comics. And we are not talking about the ending we are talking about the story what went on since all endings in the game vary so none matter.

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## Aahz

The Injustice 2 comic did anyway not a good job with Jason. His first a appearance as Fake Batman was pretty cool, but they didn't really do anything with him later. (And the thing with Damians sister was also kind of a let down.) 

If you consider how popular Jason was among the injustice fans, it is wired that they never did an issue that focused on him.

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## Arctic Cyclist

> Duke Thomas could wash Tim Drake in straight-up hand-to-hand combat.


Probably. But why would he? Duke is a master of break them by talking. He's how Gotham Girl will be defeated: he'll do the same thing to her that both he and Goliath have done to Damian and that's how they'll end up married for a year. Then she'll die, because it's a firm rule dating back to Maggie and Kate that no member of the Batfamily is allowed to be happily married. 

I think it actually dates back to Sarah Essen, hence her death in No Man's Land.

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## lemonpeace

> That's not unpopular or even debated. That's just what is


really? huh, it felt like something I'd get push back on.

----------


## Agent Z

> Honestly? I do too as it highlights the hypocrisy of Bruce and the other "heroes," especially since Dick's death is a direct result of Harley Quinn's actions as are all the deaths in the entire series except for Jim Gordon's. Sure, Damian should not have thrown the escrima stick. However, he had done it hundreds of times before without any harm to Dick, he was 13, angry, and needed some level of stability in his life for a moment particularly after having just been carried off by Solomon Grundry.
> 
> It's a scene that highlights how children are treated after accidentally causing the deaths of a family member by other family members: they themselves become orphans and outcasts even in cases where they have good, upstanding, ethical and moral parents, who love them unconditionally. You know, people who are the opposite of most versions of Bruce Wayne.
> 
> Dick's death is at the core of the theme of Injustice as it was an accident caused by a child who is held responsible for it and all other actions of the adults around him, yet Harley Quinn who is an adult, *has shades of pedophilia in her character,* and is shown unequivocally to be fully cognizant and aware of the consequences of her actions as well as a willing participant not a coerced victim walks free of all guilt and consequences.
> 
> At the core of the series, Superman was right. Everything that happened was Bruce's fault. Had Harley been brought in to face a court of law not in Gotham she would have been tried, convicted, and received lethal injection. The world would have have healed. 
> 
> It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.


Could you explain the bolded, please?

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## Restingvoice

> Could you explain the bolded, please?


Oh, she's attracted to Shazam! and kinda sorta kidnapped Billy from school by pretending to be his aunt or something like that. She's not attracted to Billy the kid, but to his superhero persona. She asked him to say the magic word and turn into an adult so they can have a date.

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## Swallowtail

> That's part of the ongoing racism rampant in both the DC editorial and fandom, particularly at WB which is the source for everything that particular idiot working for CBR wrote. People who have actually read comics, of which there are very few, know that Talia for the majority of her history was someone who acted out of live and loyalty. She was actively depicted as someone who did not want to kill, or even commit crimes up until the post 9/11 world.


Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.

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## Zaresh

> Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon *a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura* tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.


A lot more of Aura before, a lot more of a Bond girl now. Talia wasn't as villanious and crude until recent times, as far as I know.

----------


## Tzigone

> Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.


I agree with you. In her early appearances, Talia was morally gray, at best. She was perfectly fine with Batman being kidnapped and married to her against his will. She was seemingly onboard with the kidnapping of Robin (and the life-threatening "tests" for Bruce involved in rescuing him), she amnesiac-drugged someone, and she participated in framing Batman for murder.  Yes, she also saved Batman's life, and saved a boy royal (can't recall exact royal title), so she certainly wasn't all bad.  But she was definitely not all that good, either.  Ultimately, she sided with Batman for one issue when he father got taken down.  Then, aside from one anniversary issue, she disappeared from comics (so far as I can tell), for a decade, as did Ra's (and Bride of a Demon was originally out of continuity, as I understand it). When she shows up again in post-COIE land in the mid-90s, she's working for her father again. She certainly expressed a willingness to kill then (Huntress, at least, since she pointed a gun at Helena and told Dick or surrender or she's shoot). I've read that issue.  I didn't see her actually kill, I admit, or read the other titles crossed over, so cannot say whether that was a ruse. This is circa Detective Comics 700/Robin #33.  Her father also planned to kill 90% of the world's population in Legacy, and was was at least seemingly still loyal to him then, but I don't know if she actually was or was faking, or if she knew the plan, since I haven't read that story.  I know the the Hush-era she was on Superman's side, but I have only seen a few crossover appearances there. But I have read all the bronze age appearances of Talia, and she was definitely not created as a primarily admirable or noble character, nor did she have an aversion to killing as a general principle at that time.  She was not suddenly "made bad" post 9/11 because of her race.

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## Jim Kelly

Talia should not be called "Talia al Ghul." It always bugs me when I see that. Ra's al Ghul is the name that the unknown man was given--as the Demonhead. Al Ghul isn't the family name. Back in the 1970s, Talia was always just Talia, no other name.  And that's the way I like it. Talia doesn't need any other name than Talia, but if she has a family then it shouldn't have to be al Ghul. Makes more sense that, given the mystery around the man called Ra's al Ghul, his baby daughter would be registered under a different name, such as Talia Khan.

----------


## Zaresh

> I agree with you. In her early appearances, Talia was morally gray, at best. She was perfectly fine with Batman being kidnapped and married to her against his will. She was seemingly onboard with the kidnapping of Robin (and the life-threatening "tests" for Bruce involved in rescuing him), she amnesiac-drugged someone, and she participated in framing Batman for murder.  Yes, she also saved Batman's life, and saved a boy royal (can't recall exact royal title), so she certainly wasn't all bad.  But she was definitely not all that good, either.  Ultimately, she sided with Batman for one issue when he father got taken down.  Then, aside from one anniversary issue, she disappeared from comics (so far as I can tell), for a decade, as did Ra's (and Bride of a Demon was originally out of continuity, as I understand it). When she shows up again in post-COIE land in the mid-90s, she's working for her father again. She certainly expressed a willingness to kill then (Huntress, at least). I've read that issue.  I didn't see her actually kill, I admit, or read the other titles crossed over, so cannot say whether that was a ruse. This is circa Detective Comics 700/Robin #33.  Her father also planned to kill 90% of the world's population in Legacy, and was was at least seemingly still loyal to him then, but I don't know if she actually was or was faking, or if she knew the plan, since I haven't read that story.  I know the the Hush-era she was on Superman's side, but I have only seen a few crossover appearances there. But I have read all the bronze age appearances of Talia, and she was definitely not created as a primarily admirable or noble character, nor did she have an aversion to killing as a general principle at that time.  She was not suddenly "made bad" post 9/11 because of her race.


For the record, she appeared in Tec for an issue in pre-COIE. I know this because it was part of the issues I've got to read in the Jason re-reading club thread. It was in Detective Comics #526, a special issue that put an end to the story arc that presented both Jason Todd and Killer Croc. I remember this because I thought it was funny that Blond Jason met (and rescued) Talia (before anything post-COIE Black haired Jason did) in his very first actual story.

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## SiegePerilous02

No way is Selina less redeemable than Talia, or incapable of stopping her thieving ways if the narrative allowed her to. Status Quo is God being in place is the main reason she won't, but the unspoken truth is she would retire from crime just like Bruce would retire from crime fighting if the narrative was allowed to go there. it won't because comics need to be sold. But we have Earth-2 Selina classically retiring and marrying Bruce to have a daughter. Pre-crisis she served her prison sentence and even tried to stay reformed and began dating Bruce, and I believe that was hijacked and she returned to villainy because O'Neil wanted Talia to be the main love interest. even as an anti-hero, at this point we've had Batman and some of his allies (Jason, Damian and Huntress to varying degrees across various writers) do just as morally/legally questionable things.

Talia was always morally shady. It's been ramped up over the years, but that's how she started out. The circumstances she grew up in and being raised and manipulated by a whack job like Ra's produced the end result, and that makes her a tragic figure who didn't have to turn out that way. But all that justification ultimately ends up as bullshit when she's doing things like killing innocent people as Leviathan. Selina victimizes the rich and/or corrupt and is self serving a lot of the time, but won't victimize the majority of the populace and certainly not in  the same way Talia has. 

The fact that the non-white woman is chosen for this arc is a wider issue, but the creation of the Al Ghuls to begin with has unfortunate implications. 





> Which is exactly why I've never been against Jason and Damian's ways of doing things (even if Damian's way in Teen Titans was VERY flawed). For someone who knows just how corrupt Gotham (and the US government as a whole) is, Bruce sure does love leaving the dangerous criminals on their doorsteps. Knowing full well, they'll be out in about a week. Is this really the crusade against crime that he wanted so badly? Stopping criminals and murderers only to send them to the same Asylum that they routinely escape from? Hell, as much as I support BatCat, even that's all kinds of fucked up considering given Bruce's supposed stance on crime. For fuck's sake, she even stole her wedding dress. Bruce is a hypocrite. And he's just as responsible for all the crime related deaths in Gotham City as the madmen that he has put in time out for five minutes.


If Batman went the extra step, Gordon and the cops would be all over him like flies on dog crap. It would be incredibly OOC of Jim not to take that action, the alliance with Batman is inherently shaky as it is and his not killing the criminals is the main reason the partnership is allowed to work. What else is Batman supposed to do with the criminals besides turn them over to the police. He and his allies within the system like Gordon have tried to fight the system, Bruce has even donated money to hire and equip better cops and make Arkham more progressive and secure. There is only so much he can do.

No way is he responsible for the crime related deaths. He and his allies are responsible for cutting those statistics down, and I refuse to not give the villains agency for their own damn actions that lead to those deaths. If Bruce is responsible, he is far from being responsible alone. But again, Status Quo is God is the true reason.

----------


## TheCape

> Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.


Also, since Damian's introduction she always been portrayed as an abusive mom toward her son, Damian call her on that in Morrison's run pre-52. Just read the last TT croosover, to see her latest flashback, their relationship is pretty much a gender inverted David/Cassandra at this point. Except for maybe when Tomasi is writing her (i think).

----------


## Swallowtail

> Also, since Damian's introduction she always been portrayed as an abusive mom toward her son, Damian call her on that in Morrison's run pre-52. Just read the last TT croosover, to see her latest flashback, their relationship is pretty much a gender inverted David/Cassandra at this point. Except for maybe when Tomasi is writing her (i think).


Yeah, she's not a model mother, but then neither is Bruce a model father. And the scenario she and Damian are implanted into it would be hard to imagine her acting any other way. After all, the reason she gave him up in the Son of the Demon timeline was to protect him from that life. You get the feeling Ra's would have Damian killed if he was brought up to be weak like his father and Talia has been raised to value strength and ruthlessness. 

I'm not a particular fan of Batman Inc style crazyevil ex-wife Talia, and as SiegePerilous says, there are wider questions you can ask about the Al Ghuls period, but I do think it is in keeping with whom she has always been characterised.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah, she's not a model mother, but then neither is Bruce a model father. And the scenario she and Damian are implanted into it would be hard to imagine her acting any other way. After all, the reason she gave him up in the Son of the Demon timeline was to protect him from that life. You get the feeling Ra's would have Damian killed if he was brought up to be weak like his father and Talia has been raised to value strength and ruthlessness. 
> 
> I'm not a particular fan of Batman Inc style crazyevil ex-wife Talia, and as SiegePerilous says, there are wider questions you can ask about the Al Ghuls period, but I do think it is in keeping with whom she has always been characterised.


Yeah, neither one of them are going to win a parent of the year award. But to the casual observer, Bruce is the better parent. Talia and the life she was part of and Damian was born into already did the heavy lifting in screwing that kid up, so there is nowhere to go but up. Even if Bruce isn't perfect (but well meaning), he still comes with Dick and Alfred. It's perhaps sad, but not surprising, that being raised by Ra's and having him as her only example (barring one brief encounter with her mother, whose best advise was "appear helpless so everyone underestimates you"), that she turned into a lousy parent herself. 

I actually prefer the Batman Inc depiction over what generally came before. If we have to have her around, I'd prefer that to the tedious "Beloved" stuff. But the Al Ghuls in general hold my interest less than the Gotham villains, so I'm not super invested enough in Talia to be bothered by her turn. It seems in keeping enough with prior characterization to not feel too unnatural. And besides, I know _Death and the Maidens_ by reputation only, but didn't Nyssa have something to do with driving her crazy?

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah, neither one of them are going to win a parent of the year award. But to the casual observer, Bruce is the better parent. Talia and the life she was part of and Damian was born into already did the heavy lifting in screwing that kid up, so there is nowhere to go but up. Even if Bruce isn't perfect (but well meaning), he still comes with Dick and Alfred. It's perhaps sad, but not surprising, that being raised by Ra's and having him as her only example (barring one brief encounter with her mother, whose best advise was "appear helpless so everyone underestimates you"), that she turned into a lousy parent herself. 
> 
> I actually prefer the Batman Inc depiction over what generally came before. If we have to have her around, I'd prefer that to the tedious "Beloved" stuff. But the Al Ghuls in general hold my interest less than the Gotham villains, so I'm not super invested enough in Talia to be bothered by her turn. It seems in keeping enough with prior characterization to not feel too unnatural. And besides, I know _Death and the Maidens_ by reputation only, but didn't Nyssa have something to do with driving her crazy?


Nyssa killed and revived Talia several times near a Lazarus Pit until she broke her mentally, the whole thing ends being to much for Talia and she surrender toward her brainwashing to stop that torture cycle and Nyssa craddle her in her arms (Talia was also naked the whole time, just to add to the creepyness).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Nyssa killed and revived Talia several times near a Lazarus Pit until she broke her mentally, the whole thing ends being to much for Talia and she surrender toward her brainwashing to stop that torture cycle and Nyssa craddle her in her arms (Talia was also naked the whole time, just to add to the creepyness).


With Morrison's tendency to try to "make it all count," I wouldn't be surprised if these events were meant to play a part in Talia sliding into full villainy in his run.

----------


## TheCape

> With Morrison's tendency to try to "make it all count," I wouldn't be surprised if these events were meant to play a part in Talia sliding into full villainy in his run.


Eh, Morrison pick and choose when is convenient too, you can look his X-Men run to get an idea of that. The difference with other writers is that his ideas are so creative and interesting that most people don't notice, besides i always got the sensation that he considered Talia firmly a villain, although he did a backtrack in the New 52 when changed Damian's conception as something consensual, probably realizing that he comited some mistakes regarding her.

----------


## Aahz

> Eh, Morrison pick and choose when is convenient too, you can look his X-Men run to get an idea of that.


He also changed the stuff he choose and ignored way more current canon when it was convenient.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Eh, Morrison pick and choose when is convenient too, you can look his X-Men run to get an idea of that. The difference with other writers is that his ideas are so creative and interesting that most people don't notice, besides i always got the sensation that he considered Talia firmly a villain, although he did a backtrack in the New 52 when changed Damian's conception as something consensual, probably realizing that he comited some mistakes regarding her.


I think in addition to that, his runs are more accessible and new reader friendly despite being packed with older references. If his stuff contradicts some older comics that a new reader may not care to even track down anyway, does it really matter? Chances are said comics were already contradicted or contradicted something else already. I feel this way about his X-Men run, as the X-Men have the most convoluted nonsense continuity ever. I'm sure he gets some things wrong, but his run is easier to pick up and is better written than the glut of 90s excess that occurred between Claremont's first departure and his arrival, so whatever.

----------


## Agent Z

> The fact that the non-white woman is chosen for this arc is a wider issue, but the creation of the Al Ghuls to begin with has unfortunate implications.


And DC has only added to that problem since their creation.







> If Batman went the extra step, Gordon and the cops would be all over him like flies on dog crap. It would be incredibly OOC of Jim not to take that action, the alliance with Batman is inherently shaky as it is and his not killing the criminals is the main reason the partnership is allowed to work. What else is Batman supposed to do with the criminals besides turn them over to the police. He and his allies within the system like Gordon have tried to fight the system, Bruce has even donated money to hire and equip better cops and make Arkham more progressive and secure. There is only so much he can do.


I find this excuse difficult to accept. Firstly, if Gordon is going to come after Bruce for killing (not even murder, just killing in general) why is he allowing Bruce to run rampant across Gotham? Bruce regularly commits torture, assault, breaking and entering, tampering with crime scenes, child endangerment and so on. Just one of these crimes should put him at odds with a truly ethical Gordon. Hell, not too long ago, Bruce broke Selina out of prison when she was arrested for mass murder. That she turned out to be innocent is moot as neither Bruce not Gordon had any proof she was innocent at the time.




> No way is he responsible for the crime related deaths. He and his allies are responsible for cutting those statistics down, and I refuse to not give the villains agency for their own damn actions that lead to those deaths. If Bruce is responsible, he is far from being responsible alone. But again, Status Quo is God is the true reason.


Its less that the villains dont have any agency in these deaths its that Bruces own responsibility is often ignored. That the system in Gotham is corrupt is acknowledged by fans, its pretty much the premise upon which Batman is built. Which makes his seeming half assed solutions all the more glaring, especially when they have so many stories pointing out how his methods arent getting results yet not doing anything about it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> And DC has only added to that problem since their creation.
> I find this excuse difficult to accept. Firstly, if Gordon is going to come after Bruce for killing (not even murder, just killing in general) why is he allowing Bruce to run rampant across Gotham? Bruce regularly commits torture, assault, breaking and entering, tampering with crime scenes, child endangerment and so on.


Because the GCPD are incapable to rein in some of the more dangerous criminals, so they compromise. The Bat fam gets results, so he... they, allow them some leeway, but only to a certain point. If he goes as bad as the criminal they're trying to catch, then they're done. I think that's reasonable.

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## SiegePerilous02

> And DC has only added to that problem since their creation.


So it may be best to get rid of them entirely. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
But if they're around, treating them like the horrible people they are is in-character. Talia's upbringing resulted in her being the way she was, and she never had a chance. But as it stands now, despite how tragic she is, she's still a mass murdering and selfish asshole who was always on the edge anyway. 





> I find this excuse difficult to accept. Firstly, if Gordon is going to come after Bruce for killing (not even murder, just killing in general) why is he allowing Bruce to run rampant across Gotham? Bruce regularly commits torture, assault, breaking and entering, tampering with crime scenes, child endangerment and so on. Just one of these crimes should put him at odds with a truly ethical Gordon. Hell, not too long ago, Bruce broke Selina out of prison when she was arrested for mass murder. That she turned out to be innocent is moot as neither Bruce not Gordon had any proof she was innocent at the time.


I don't really see your logic here. Gordon drew a line Batman cannot cross, which is killing. It's already shaky for all the other things you mentioned (though those are a case by case basis depending on who is writing, though if he's getting results that help the GCPD clearly he is not tampering with crime scenes to their detriment), so they don't want to cross the line and go too far. Why then do you think they should just go "fuck it, let chaos run in the streets and just dig ourselves in further and let the dude kill people"? That would defeat the whole premise of the uneasy partnership and potential tension.

As for the child endangerment, the whole superhero community is guilty of this. That's just the weird *fantasy* world they live in. If we apply realism and bring this to the logical conclusion, the Teen Titans and Young Justice should never have existed, and I'm sure fans of those characters would not be happy with excising them for the sake of realism. I personally don't think Bruce needs another sidekick after Dick and would happily jettison Jason and his brutal death from canon (or put a hard stop to it after that, no Tim, Steph or Cass), but I know I'm in the minority on these boards as far as that is concerned. 

It's fantasy. Nobody cares about hard realism and consequences in Batman comics or else they wouldn't read them. Realistically Batman would die within a week or get locked up, and then we'd have no stories. 





> It’s less that the villains don’t have any agency in these deaths it’s that Bruce’s own responsibility is often ignored. That the system in Gotham is corrupt is acknowledged by fans, it’s pretty much the premise upon which Batman is built. Which makes his seeming half assed solutions all the more glaring, especially when they have so many stories pointing out how his methods aren’t getting results yet not doing anything about it.


Again, it fluctuates depending on the writer. The GCPD had been shown to become less corrupt with Gordon in charge after Batman's arrival, and street crime and social reform can be shown to improve. The super crime gets weirder, but the entire DCU is weird and nobody in the DCU, not just Batman, is capable of stopping it. Even Diana, who is willing to kill when necessary, doesn't exactly after a shrinking rogues gallery, does she? And hers are lethal than Batman's. 

We know DC won't let him (OR his allies, most of whom have the same strict code) kill criminals for the same reason they constantly break out no matter how hard Batman and Gordon work to put them away: the bad guys are needed for stories, and DC needs to sell comics. Even death is not a permanent solution to keep villains down, especially the popular ones. What is the point in complaining about Batman being ineffective when the entire publishing model is against him? If Red Hood killed the Joker and was declared a more effective hero, it's not a matter of if the Joker would come back, but when.

----------


## Agent Z

> So it may be best to get rid of them entirely. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
> But if they're around, treating them like the horrible people they are is in-character. Talia's upbringing resulted in her being the way she was, and she never had a chance. But as it stands now, despite how tragic she is, she's still a mass murdering and selfish asshole who was always on the edge anyway.


Why are these the only two options? It isn't like Talia is without her sympathetic traits and DC has made semi-heroic characters out of people just as bad or worse. Making the one of the few prominent woc in the Batman mythos into a eugenics obesessed terrorist is hardly ideal but believe it or not, there are ways to write her that aren't something out of a right-wing, anti-Arab novel. DC is constantly finding more complex ways to depict their white villains so why shouldn't the same be done with Talia, especially when she's only recently been at her worse?

I mean, saying Talia never had a chance is weird given Damien's arc. 




> I don't really see your logic here. Gordon drew a line Batman cannot cross, which is killing. It's already shaky for all the other things you mentioned (though those are a case by case basis depending on who is writing, though if he's getting results that help the GCPD clearly he is not tampering with crime scenes to their detriment), so they don't want to cross the line and go too far. Why then do you think they should just go "fuck it, let chaos run in the streets and just dig ourselves in further and let the dude kill people"? That would defeat the whole premise of the uneasy partnership and potential tension.


My point is it’s an arbitrary line that makes no sense with a supposedly ethical Gordon and supposedly less corrupt GCPD.




> As for the child endangerment, the whole superhero community is guilty of this.


Most superhero stories are smart enough to not really bring attention to it. Batman comics, on the other hand, have been pushing the dark and edgy thing since the 80s if not further back. 
But you know what? Fair enough. The child endangerment isn’t the best example. It isn’t like the Batman books don’t give me more than enough ammo anyway.






> Even Diana, who is willing to kill when necessary, doesn't exactly after a shrinking rogues gallery, does she? And hers are lethal than Batman's.


I’d dispute that. There is a lot more diversity in methodology and motivation among Diana’s rogues and hell it’s even been pointed out they aren’t all that threatening much of the time. By contrast, you can’t throw a rock at Bruce’s rogues without hitting someone who isn't a serial killer, terrorist (and I don't just mean the al Ghuls), hitman or some combination of all three.

----------


## lemonpeace

Ric Grayson has been the best jumping on point for Nightwing for me.

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## Restingvoice

> Ric Grayson has been the best jumping on point for Nightwing for me.


Well, it _is_ a jumping-on point. Not gonna argue with that.

----------


## Celgress

> Well, it _is_ a jumping-on point. Not gonna argue with that.


You mean a jumping-off point. Sorry, I couldn't resist.  :Wink:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Why are these the only two options? It isn't like Talia is without her sympathetic traits and DC has made semi-heroic characters out of people just as bad or worse. Making the one of the few prominent woc in the Batman mythos into a eugenics obesessed terrorist is hardly ideal but believe it or not, there are ways to write her that aren't something out of a right-wing, anti-Arab novel. DC is constantly finding more complex ways to depict their white villains so why shouldn't the same be done with Talia, especially when she's only recently been at her worse?
> 
> I mean, saying Talia never had a chance is weird given Damien's arc.


Damian isn't Talia. His arc is about a child leaving a toxic environment with an abusive and manipulative parent to a new support system. It being superhero comics, it's just heightened to be a family of crime fighting superhero vigilantes. Talia unfortunately did not have a Dick Grayson to rescue her, so she was stuck being raised by THAT man in THAT environment. So no, she never had much of a chance to turn out to be better than she is. If Damian had been left with his mother, or worse his grandfather without the interference of the Bat-Family he'd end up the same. 

I think making sympathetic anti-heroes out of these people is an obnoxious trend in fiction. Think the "Draco in Leather Pants" trope, or women marrying serial killers in prison. Making them semi-heroic with a carefully done redemption arc and some punishment/penance might be worth it in some cases, but it doesn't always work. It makes them "cool" in a way when they may not deserve it. And fanatical cultists, terrorists and assassins should never be made cool in a way to make you want to root for them. Screw them. I don't really buy DC's attempts to absolve Harley either, and she's white. It does mean DC needs to put more effort into Gotham's WOCs though, but don't absolve Talia unless the arc is going to be well written. And on the downside, we'd lose a good a villain. One of the major complaints about the X-Men franchise in recent years is they have nobody to fight anymore because all their enemies end up on their team. 





> My point is it’s an arbitrary line that makes no sense with a supposedly ethical Gordon and supposedly less corrupt GCPD.


So the solution to Gordon's loose morals is to make them looser?
If he's uneasy about the alliance already and the no-kill thing is in-character as a limit, why do you think it'd be in character for him to be like "lol fuck it, yolo, let him do whatever." 





> Most superhero stories are smart enough to not really bring attention to it. Batman comics, on the other hand, have been pushing the dark and edgy thing since the 80s if not further back. 
> But you know what? Fair enough. The child endangerment isn’t the best example. It isn’t like the Batman books don’t give me more than enough ammo anyway.


It's not particularly difficult to find the ammo you're looking for. Point is, everybody already knows the Batman franchise is not realistic and doesn't hold up to real world scrutiny and his every action wouldn't be feasible or legal irl. It's a comic about a crime fighting dracula who battles evil clowns, madmen with freeze rays and a shape shifting pile of mud who drives a rocket car, is best friends with an invincible flying alien and has a limitless amount of money that he can somehow use both on his personal crusade, aiding other crime fighters and spreading it around to various charities and reform causes.  

Even children know he's just make believe and don't scrutinize this stuff too closely. Nothing in this genre, in terms of what is feasible in the real world, was designed to be. 

Considering all the dead teen heroes we've had throughout the DCU, even if most of them have come back from the dead, I'm not sure the rest of it is much better at not addressing things. Kon and Bart have both been killed, and we've recently had Wallace West hospitalized by Thawne. 





> I’d dispute that. There is a lot more diversity in methodology and motivation among Diana’s rogues and hell it’s even been pointed out they aren’t all that threatening much of the time. By contrast, you can’t throw a rock at Bruce’s rogues without hitting someone who isn't a serial killer, terrorist (and I don't just mean the al Ghuls), hitman or some combination of all three.


Cheetah and Psycho alone escape as often as any Gotham rogue and probably have comparable body counts and trauma victims in their wake. Why isn't Diana killing them or putting them into a more secure prison? Because DC would just break them out for the next story when they need them. If DC finally gives a crap about her villains to develop them the same way as the rest of the rogues galleries, their threat level would be upped considerably because everything needs to be edgy now I guess. None of them would be permanently imprisoned or killed if they become popular, body counts be damned.

Now I personally would love all the Bat-villains to be toned down from being slasher villains, especially the Joker. But we all know about the main behind the curtain, we all know that the edginess sells and we all know why Batman won't be allowed to successfully reform or imprison any of his villains no matter how lethal they become. DC wants to use them. Nothing they come up with in-universe will change anything because of out of universe demands.

----------


## Swallowtail

> So it may be best to get rid of them entirely. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
> 
> 
> It's fantasy. Nobody cares about hard realism and consequences in Batman comics or else they wouldn't read them. Realistically Batman would die within a week or get locked up, and then we'd have no stories.


This is a pretty arbitrary line. Either all aspects of a story are open for interrogation or none are. Not that I'm saying that every aspect has to be interrogated in every story or that 'don't worry about how a man can fly' isn't a valid option most of the time. But saying, "well these bits are problematic so lets take them off the table but chill out about these bits because, hey, it's just a story" is inconsistent. 

Part of Batman's appeal is his flexibility when it comes to genre and tone. He can fit into "POW, THWAP" Golden age adventures, and into melodrama and into horror. And there is definitely room in there for asking the question, "Is Batman just repeating the same action over and over with the Rogues and expecting a different result? Does that make him morally culpable? Does that just just make him look stupid?"

Removing the ability to ask those questions, and removing most of his supporting cast, and rendering his villains back down to a defined set of 'morally black and white but not too evil' cast of Gotham rogues, drastically reduces the scope of the character and the stories you can tell with him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You mean a jumping-off point. Sorry, I couldn't resist.


Oh. Don't apologize. Same.

----------


## nonsense man

Maybe each writer should tell their own arc and just reboot the universe again and again it is limitless and then.  Since choices are infinite just make any story with the character but with the same starting point but with different casts friends and ending each writer writes his universe and then the next one shows us or writes a new one.

----------


## Aahz

> I think in addition to that, his runs are more accessible and new reader friendly despite being packed with older references. If his stuff contradicts some older comics that a new reader may not care to even track down anyway, does it really matter?


I wouldn't really call comics from the same continuity "old".
Sticking with the established canon would have been imo as accessible for new reader, and more accessible for the old readers. While the number of readers that were really into the stories Morrison brought back, were probably quite small. And I don't really feel that the silver age stuff he brought back really added anything of worth to the Batman mythos.

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## SiegePerilous02

> I wouldn't really call comics from the same continuity "old".
> Sticking with the established canon would have been imo as accessible for new reader, and more accessible for the old readers. While the number of readers that were really into the stories Morrison brought back, were probably quite small. And I don't really feel that the silver age stuff he brought back really added anything of worth to the Batman mythos.


Canon at DC has always been fluid to varying degrees. And yeah, the stories are older. Anything prior to the current story is by default older, and the goal is to make it accessible to new readers and old readers both. If a new reader picks up Morrison's run and enjoy it for its own merits, should they change their opinion if they are told "actually not all the details line up 100% with a previous story you haven't read and likely weren't going to anyway" or be allowed to not care?

His run is one of the most successful in recent memory. Readers don't have to be into the stories he brought back to be into what he did with them (I never read a single one of them, but researched them after and thought the way he used them was cool). I don't think removing them from the mythos is adds anything either, but then I find the post-Crisis versions of the Trinity (more so Supes and Bats) had all the fun sucked out of them compared to the older versions anyway.

----------


## AnakinFlair

> Tim Drake needs to go. He's a creative sinkhole, void of any originality, and with this stupid 5 year time line he just clutters things up. 
> 
> Jason Todd needs to break bad again. 
> 
> I don't think Cass Cain is a very good character, and i don't think they should bring her back anytime soon. Sorry Cass fans. But with a five year time line there just really isn't the room for more characters who would, quite frankly, be with out a purpose or a role.
> 
> Kate Kane needs more of a personality.
> 
> DC has diminished "Nightwing" with the likes of Red Robin, Batwing, and new 52 Red Hood. So as much as i adore the Nightwing persona, i actually think that it might be good for Dick to ditch Nightwing for a bit. We have to many Nightwings right now.


I'm sorry, but as a fan of both Cassandra and Tim, I have to disagree.

What they need to do is throw out that ri-goddamn-diculous 5 year time line. It was arbitrary, only sporadically enforced, and in the case of the Bat family, made no damn sense. It meant that Bruce had FOUR different Robins in 5 years, and then none of their ages made sense.

Both Tim and Cass can be great characters, and their old books showed this. But what was done to their characters in the New 52 (ESPECIALLY Tim) was beyond reprehensible, and should either be retconned back out of existence, or completely ignored.

----------


## Mistah K88

Controversy eh...

Mr. Freeze's sympathetic backstory limits him. I love Victor's story, but I'd be lying if I said that he in that state is only good for maybe 3-5 stories. 

Gotham's rogues need to be toned down. I get that the only way to show someone is a threat is for them to have a body count, however I'd like to see some less hyper violence from some of the Arkham baddies. It gets harder and harder to justify them being taken in alive. While Batman isn't judge, jury, and executioner, it gets hard to believe that everyone in Gotham is as moral. Thus, I'd like to see some smaller stories where the villain is simply after a big score (you know a lot of the stuff some of the villains do cost money, and they can't steal EVERYTHING)

Gotham's PD shouldn't rely on Batman. I get that it's the selling point of stories and Bruce's money makes him equipped to handle some of the crooks that the GPD can't. However there is a HUGE difference between someone like Clayface and someone like Zsasz.

----------


## Tzigone

> Mr. Freeze's sympathetic backstory limits him. I love Victor's story, but I'd be lying if I said that he in that state is only good for maybe 3-5 stories.


Someone else (or maybe it was you) said that earlier. I tend to agree, and started a thread on villains that needed a limited shelf life in response, since the post made me think about it.




> Gotham's rogues need to be toned down. I get that the only way to show someone is a threat is for them to have a body count, however I'd like to see some less hyper violence from some of the Arkham baddies. It gets harder and harder to justify them being taken in alive. While Batman isn't judge, jury, and executioner, it gets hard to believe that everyone in Gotham is as moral. Thus, I'd like to see some smaller stories where the villain is simply after a big score (you know a lot of the stuff some of the villains do cost money, and they can't steal EVERYTHING)


A thousand times this. I agree so much.  Also gets to a trend of having to top themselves over and over or "it doesn't matter" and people won't read. So, bigger and bigger body counts and more and more shocking gruesomeness follow.  But that doesn't necessarily improve the stories. And, it makes it more unlikely to allow any villain-hero team-up (not that I like those, anyway) without making the heroes completely out of character for working with these baddies.  Not that DC care if in-character gets in the way of potential sales.

Then again, I guess the heroes have done those kind of team-ups often enough that it's no longer out of character, and instead just sad that they are so diminished morally.

Also, it makes Batman seem ineffective as a hero.  Sometimes something that big happens and he can't stop it - okay.  But not this often. Especially if you go the route of Batman making the Joker (I don't like it, myself).  Which ties into - Gotham needs to improve. If it's the same corrupt, crime-ridden cesspit after 10-20 years of Batman, what was the point?  So the trick become a balancing act of keeping the city a certain amount bad while still seeing some improvement.  And I know the progressively-worse-Gotham (via retcons and reboots rather than getting worse since Bruce donned the cowl in-universe) has been discussed before.

----------


## Blue22

Tim's best costume was the one he had at the start of the New 52. The one with the wings.

----------


## Mistah K88

> Someone else (or maybe it was you) said that earlier. I tend to agree, and started a thread on villains that needed a limited shelf life in response, since the post made me think about it.


Yeah That was me.




> A thousand times this. I agree so much.  Also gets to a trend of having to top themselves over and over or "it doesn't matter" and people won't read. So, bigger and bigger body counts and more and more shocking gruesomeness follow.  But that doesn't necessarily improve the stories. And, it makes it more unlikely to allow any villain-hero team-up (not that I like those, anyway) without making the heroes completely out of character for working with these baddies.  Not that DC care if in-character gets in the way of potential sales.
> 
> Then again, I guess the heroes have done those kind of team-ups often enough that it's no longer out of character, and instead just sad that they are so diminished morally.
> 
> Also, it makes Batman seem ineffective as a hero.  Sometimes something that big happens and he can't stop it - okay.  But not this often. Especially if you go the route of Batman making the Joker (I don't like it, myself).  Which ties into - Gotham needs to improve. If it's the same corrupt, crime-ridden cesspit after 10-20 years of Batman, what was the point?  So the trick become a balancing act of keeping the city a certain amount bad while still seeing some improvement.  And I know the progressively-worse-Gotham (via retcons and reboots rather than getting worse since Bruce donned the cowl in-universe) has been discussed before.


It's kind of funny, it takes me back to what got me into comics in the first place (animation). Because they were for children, they had to be a bit more creative than filling graveyards anytime someone got out. 

While simply being greedy isn't one of the best motivations, sometimes its not WHAT you do, but HOW you do it which can drastically alter a story. Using an example of a cartoon doing the "steal money" approach, doing something like muscling your way into a bank to rob it is one way to steal money, but taking advantage of a troubled teen by lying to her about having an antidote to her condition only to discard them when you get what you needed (Static Shock episode), is quite a different approach for the same goal. (I mainly remember THAT specific instance due to Poison Ivy's line "Science ain't cheap huh".) I read this one Scarecrow story (I'll have to track it down) where he lied on broadcast saying he coated the city in fear gas to cause mass paranoia for the sole purpose of "study".

I suppose I might as well throw in that the city being on the verge of collapse every week is ALSO starting to become old hat.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I never liked the concept of biological and also naturally loved and badass child Helena Wayne and that Earth 2 Batman retired - not the retirement itself, but the fact that they still said Batman is still needed and his kids still have to fight as heroes but he retired. What even is the point. If that was a real life situation  I would say the reason he was killed was because he retired to soon. 

Golden Age Catwoman is better than any other version of her, tho. Really Bruces soulmate. 

golden Age Robin Dick is the best and most valid version of the character. Dc struggles with him in modern times because bar TT and NTt hes a shell of the Golden Age self .

Oracle being Babs’ evil enemy is a GREAT idea for the character, her most fitting rogue yet, and one of the only things that  can make her more interesting than a knock-off yet more arrogant and less likeable old school Batman. Pity it will go nowhere as the universe is right now.

----------


## Agent Z

> I never liked the concept of biological and also naturally loved and badass child Helena Wayne and that Earth 2 Batman retired - not the retirement itself, but the fact that they still said Batman is still needed and his kids still have to fight as heroes but he retired. What even is the point. If that was a real life situation  I would say the reason he was killed was because he retired to soon. 
> 
> Golden Age Catwoman is better than any other version of her, tho. Really Bruces soulmate. 
> 
> golden Age Robin Dick is the best and most valid version of the character. Dc struggles with him in modern times because bar TT and NTt hes a shell of the Golden Age self .
> 
> Oracle being Babs evil enemy is a GREAT idea for the character, her most fitting rogue yet, and one of the only things that  can make her more interesting than a knock-off yet more arrogant and less likeable old school Batman. Pity it will go nowhere as the universe is right now.


What was wrong with Helena's parents loving her? And I'm pretty sure they said heroes were needed not merely Batman. The world he existed in wasn't that messed up so him retiring wasn't an issue. 

Golden Age Selina barely even qualified as a love interest. 

Oracle being a villain is just more of DC's tonedeafness.

----------


## nonsense man

Tom King and anyone who likes his run all hate batman as a competent hero who might act like a bastard sometimes and actually succeeds in his mission

----------


## kilderkin

> Tim's best costume was the one he had at the start of the New 52. The one with the wings.


I really liked that tbh

----------


## Jim Kelly

What if there was no Batman family.

In 1986, when they rebooted Superman, they got rid of the family and all the other Kryptonians. It was back to basics with Superman being the only survivor of the doomed planet. Of course, over time, the family gradually came back into the Superman comics. But what if DC had taken the same approach with Batman as they had with Superman. Dick Grayson wouldn't exist in the Teen Titans--instead like, with Valor and Laurel Gand in the Legion, a retcon character would become the Nightwing of that group, with no connection to Bruce. There would be no Robins, no Batgirls, no Bathounds.

We would get a stripped down version of Batman--one man fighting the corruption in Gotham City with no other costumed allies to help him out. I imagine it would be like in many of the Batman movies, where Bruce has no assistance other than what comes from Alfred and Gordon.

----------


## Jackalope89

> What if there was no Batman family.
> 
> In 1986, when they rebooted Superman, they got rid of the family and all the other Kryptonians. It was back to basics with Superman being the only survivor of the doomed planet. Of course, over time, the family gradually came back into the Superman comics. But what if DC had taken the same approach with Batman as they had with Superman. Dick Grayson wouldn't exist in the Teen Titans--instead like, with Valor and Laurel Gand in the Legion, a retcon character would become the Nightwing of that group, with no connection to Bruce. There would be no Robins, no Batgirls, no Bathounds.
> 
> We would get a stripped down version of Batman--one man fighting the corruption in Gotham City with no other costumed allies to help him out. I imagine it would be like in many of the Batman movies, where Bruce has no assistance other than what comes from Alfred and Gordon.


No. 

I don't like the "last Kryptonian" kind of thing to begin with. And erasing Dick's time as Robin, as well as the others, no. And when the New52 tried to shove 4 Robins into 5 years, that was just plain stupid.

----------


## byrd156

> What if there was no Batman family.
> 
> In 1986, when they rebooted Superman, they got rid of the family and all the other Kryptonians. It was back to basics with Superman being the only survivor of the doomed planet. Of course, over time, the family gradually came back into the Superman comics. But what if DC had taken the same approach with Batman as they had with Superman. Dick Grayson wouldn't exist in the Teen Titans--instead like, with Valor and Laurel Gand in the Legion, a retcon character would become the Nightwing of that group, with no connection to Bruce. There would be no Robins, no Batgirls, no Bathounds.
> 
> We would get a stripped down version of Batman--one man fighting the corruption in Gotham City with no other costumed allies to help him out. I imagine it would be like in many of the Batman movies, where Bruce has no assistance other than what comes from Alfred and Gordon.


Batman needs a Robin, specifically Dick Grayson. Everyone always paints this picture that he's always been a loner or needs to be a one man army. He only existed for 11 issues before Dick came along, not even a year.

----------


## lemonpeace

> Tom King and anyone who likes his run all hate batman as a competent hero who might act like a bastard sometimes and actually succeeds in his mission


that's not really a controversial take, it a pretty popular one on this site specifically, it's just kinda insulting and condescending. be nicer people dude, people have different taste, I actually like some (not all admittedly) of King's stuff and I don't hate Batman being competent; the bastard thing is contextual.

----------


## Westbats

If Bat-Editorial is so sure on Dick not being Nightwing right now, I'd rather someone else in the Batfamily take up the mantle, like Cass or Harper. It makes me shake my head thinking about people's reaction to Harper becoming Nightwing back when _Batman Eternal_ came out, because I don't find the Team Nightwing group to be engaging at all. At least we know Cass and Harper's names, right now I'd have to do a Google search to tell you the names of the people being Nightwing.

----------


## Harpsikord

> If Bat-Editorial is so sure on Dick not being Nightwing right now, I'd rather someone else in the Batfamily take up the mantle, like Cass or Harper. It makes me shake my head thinking about people's reaction to Harper becoming Nightwing back when _Batman Eternal_ came out, because I don't find the Team Nightwing group to be engaging at all. At least we know Cass and Harper's names, right now I'd have to do a Google search to tell you the names of the people being Nightwing.


Consider:

----------


## Frontier

> Consider:


She got screwed out of it in that _Smallville_ comic  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Harpsikord

> She got screwed out of it in that _Smallville_ comic .


She *really* did. Man, I hate Dan Didio. And I mean Steph is the member of the bat family that's the most like Dick, she's the one that would fit the best.

----------


## Tzigone

I don't want anyone else to be Nightwing. That's Dick's.  I like people having their own titles, and not just hand-me-downs (okay, technically, it was hand-me-down for Dick, but much well after we'd last seen it used, and it wasn't a full-time title for prominent character).

Steph is Spoiler - she doesn't need to give up own identity to take someone's else hand-me-down...again.




> And I mean Steph is the member of the bat family that's the most like Dick, she's the one that would fit the best.


I like both their older personalities better than their newer, flakier, ones, so meh.

As Nightwing, she'd just be a fill-in for the "real thing". At least as long as Dick doesn't have a superhero identity of his own.  And him claiming that one was such an important storyline.

----------


## Jim Kelly

Given comic book logic on last names, Tim *Drake* should be the legacy Black Canary.

----------


## Frontier

> I like both their older personalities better than their newer, flakier, ones, so meh.
> 
> As Nightwing, she'd just be a fill-in for the "real thing". At least as long as Dick doesn't have a superhero identity of his own.  And him claiming that one was such an important storyline.


In the context of Smallville I think she was supposed to be her own, distinct, thing as Nightwing (it was that kind of property).

Dick and Steph must be written extremely out-of-character to come off as flakes in my opinion.

----------


## 9th.

> She got screwed out of it in that _Smallville_ comic .


What's the story here?

----------


## Harpsikord

> What's the story here?


The writer, Brian Q Miller (who wrote Steph as Batgirl, mind), wanted to use Stephanie as Nightwing in Smallville Season 11 (or whatever season the comic was) and originally was told that it was fine but this was right after Flashpoint so once Didio got wind of it Miller was forced to change the character to someone else: namely, Barbara Gordon.

----------


## 9th.

> The writer, Brian Q Miller (who wrote Steph as Batgirl, mind), wanted to use Stephanie as Nightwing in Smallville Season 11 (or whatever season the comic was) and originally was told that it was fine but this was right after Flashpoint so once Didio got wind of it Miller was forced to change the character to someone else: namely, Barbara Gordon.


Does he hate Steph, why would it matter if she was Nightwing in a completely separate continuity?

----------


## Jackalope89

Like Detective Comics is basically ignoring Teen Titans and other series, could make Damian mini-Nightwing...

I may or may not have gotten that from a fanfic...

----------


## Frontier

> Does he hate Steph, why would it matter if she was Nightwing in a completely separate continuity?


I think it was around the time of the New 52 so they were phasing out the other Batgirls in favor of the original, so that's why it ended up being Babs.

----------


## Robanker

> Does he hate Steph, why would it matter if she was Nightwing in a completely separate continuity?


His own words: https://www.newsarama.com/10376-dan-...own-issue.html

I've heard rumors that he pushed against her getting a memorial in the Batcave after she died (for the minute she was dead), but I haven't bothered to see them substantiated. Considering his well-documented hate of legacies, his idea to put her in the Robin suit and then kill her does make me think he never liked her to begin with.

----------


## Jackalope89

> His own words: https://www.newsarama.com/10376-dan-...own-issue.html
> 
> I've heard rumors that he pushed against her getting a memorial in the Batcave after she died (for the minute she was dead), but I haven't bothered to see them substantiated. Considering his well-documented hate of legacies, his idea to put her in the Robin suit and then kill her does make me think he never liked her to begin with.


Yeesh. Sounds like what happened with Jason Todd. The writer back then absolutely loathed him to the point of even trying to give him AIDS just to kill him, to say nothing of Death in the Family.

----------


## TheRay

There is a lot of heat over Harley right now, but I have honestly not hated anything that has been done with her.
Outside of her obviously abusive relationship with Joker, but I think we are meant to be put off by that.

----------


## Shadowcat

The Batfamily is too big, and it’s at a size that isn’t sustainable.

----------


## Korath

I just realized recently (as in, today) but Bruce Wayne needs to willingly step down as Batman for a time. The last few years, he has been a particularly terrible person when it came to his family - ever since Rebirth, really. I love Batman as a character, but I seriously couldn't feel it for some time now, whatever the title he was in, and now I think that having a replacement who is fun and open and sympathetic to the rest of the family, even with a grumbling Bruce in the background, as seems to be the case in the future, would do wonder for the characters and the mantle of Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

Speaking of Bruce being a dick, when did he start doing that? He wasn't like that when I read him as a kid, which is a mix of random Golden, Silver, Bronze Age stuffs.

----------


## Korath

He was kind of a jerk in New 52, but it was mostly during period of stress, and he always - at least to me- managed to offset it by genuine moments of shame or sorrow even when he was too stubborn to admit his mistakes immediately. 

I think it predates Flashpoint however, but he truly turned into an unlikeable character since Rebirth : ignoring his son's birthday, dismissive of Dick's actions as a Titan and the like, beating Jason to a pulp because he tried to kill Penguin without hearing any of his reasons, etc. 

All of this could have been offset if he at least had been fun, somewhat, like he was under Snyder, with his cold gruff humor, but he was simply angry and bitter in Rebirth (under King's pen but also other writers).

----------


## Restingvoice

Bruce admitted, in private, to Dick, after Dick keeps insisting for Bruce to be honest, that Bruce made Jason Robin in post-crisis immediately after firing Dick because he misses Dick, then promptly tell him to get out of the cave. Both of them didn't tell Jason of course, but that's the earliest dickishness I know.

I forgot which issue. Dick is in Discowing outfit and it was drawn by Jim Aparo.

Found it. Batman (Vol. 1) #416 (1988)

----------


## Swallowtail

> The Batfamily is too big, and its at a size that isnt sustainable.


I never really get why this is such a popular opinion. The batfamily has a rotating core cast of about 8-10 people and has for the last twenty years. For a franchise of it's size, that's a small to normal-sized cast.

----------


## TheCape

> Speaking of Bruce being a dick, when did he start doing that? He wasn't like that when I read him as a kid, which is a mix of random Golden, Silver, Bronze Age stuffs.


Since Frank Miller interpretation of the character, he became colder and more paranoic after it, but he was still likable, it was after Knightfall when it took almost a full effect, some writers are able to walk it back to a more nice characterization for a bit, but it never last, he goes back to being an asshole sooner or later. 2000s Batman in particular is more often than not, someone that is too unlikable to actually root for.

----------


## Pohzee

> I never really get why this is such a popular opinion. The batfamily has a rotating core cast of about 8-10 people and has for the last twenty years. For a franchise of it's size, that's a small to normal-sized cast.


The problem is that they all do the same thing and start to take away more from eachother and Batman than they add. Of course they have their fans, but when that fandom necessitates that these characters always get their moment it draws away from Batman. They aren't a supporting cast so much as an ensemble. 

Other characters like Jim Gordon, Harvey Bullock, Leslie Thompson, Alfred, and Harold bring more new things to Batman's world than a 10th Robin or 7th Batgirl.

----------


## Jim Kelly

> I never really get why this is such a popular opinion. The batfamily has a rotating core cast of about 8-10 people and has for the last twenty years. For a franchise of it's size, that's a small to normal-sized cast.


But Batman isn't supposed to be a franchise like the Justice League of America or the Green Lantern Corps. There's one Batman, that's it. I'm not against other characters operating out of Gotham City--in the 1940s, Green Lantern was in Gotham (and hardly ever met Batman) and in the 1970s, the Demon/Jason Blood was in Gotham (only rarely meeting up with the Bat). And I'm not against Batman having associates that work in other cities and countries--like the Club of Heroes--or even Batman being a member of a group like the Justice League or the Outsiders. Or Batman hanging around with characters that are clearly not trying to steal his act, like the Mystery Analysts of Gotham City or Jason Bard or Elongated Man or Gotham Central. But it takes something away from the Batman if there's a pack of them all working in the same city, with the same M.O., fighting the same villains and stepping on the Cape Crusader's cape.

----------


## Jackalope89

> But Batman isn't supposed to be a franchise like the Justice League of America or the Green Lantern Corps. There's one Batman, that's it. I'm not against other characters operating out of Gotham City--in the 1940s, Green Lantern was in Gotham (and hardly ever met Batman) and in the 1970s, the Demon/Jason Blood was in Gotham (only rarely meeting up with the Bat). And I'm not against Batman having associates that work in other cities and countries--like the Club of Heroes--or even Batman being a member of a group like the Justice League or the Outsiders. Or Batman hanging around with characters that are clearly not trying to steal his act, like the Mystery Analysts of Gotham City or Jason Bard or Elongated Man or Gotham Central. But it takes something away from the Batman if there's a pack of them all working in the same city, with the same M.O., fighting the same villains and stepping on the Cape Crusader's cape.


Yeah! Batman doesn't need help to look after a city of millions of people, rampant crime and corruption, and numerous areas...

Besides, other than Damian in Detective Comics, and Babs in Burnside (which might as well be a different city anyways), the others aren't even IN Gotham. Dick is being a hobo in Bludhaven, Tim is doing who knows what under Bendis, Jason was exiled (despite being born and grew up in Gotham) and is now looking after some meta-teens, Steph... I don't know. Cass and Duke are with the Outsiders which aren't even restricted to Gotham. And Kate, other than an appearance here and there, hasn't even been really touched upon since her solo ended.

----------


## The Red Monk

> Yeah! Batman doesn't need help to look after a city of millions of people, rampant crime and corruption, and numerous areas...
> 
> Besides, other than Damian in Detective Comics, and Babs in Burnside (which might as well be a different city anyways), the others aren't even IN Gotham. Dick is being a hobo in Bludhaven, Tim is doing who knows what under Bendis, Jason was exiled (despite being born and grew up in Gotham) and is now looking after some meta-teens, Steph... I don't know. Cass and Duke are with the Outsiders which aren't even restricted to Gotham. And Kate, other than an appearance here and there, hasn't even been really touched upon since her solo ended.


That's not a valid defense. Just because they are in other cities or otherwise doing fuck all doesn't mean they need to exist at all. They are superfluous and add nothing that no-one else already does. It would be somewhat mitigated if they had vivid personalities to make up for it but the vast majority of them don't. They are just sitting there. Just because some fans would screech like harpies if they were to be culled does not justify their continued existence in the Bat-Family.




> Speaking of Bruce being a dick, when did he start doing that? He wasn't like that when I read him as a kid, which is a mix of random Golden, Silver, Bronze Age stuffs.


Post-Frank-Miller stuff, really. I was reluctant to blame Miller initially, since his version of Batman made sense and was crafted specifically for that world and figured it was just hack writers copying what worked with Miller without understanding why it worked, but then I saw Miller himself kind of pushing that same interpretation everywhere else and yeah, fuck Frank Miller for that. Problem is, it's entrenched too deep now. If you have Batman talking, laughing and politely conversing with someone like Superman, instead of acting like a standoffish dick who is one sentence away from telling Clark to go fuck himself for asking him how his day was or waiting for Gordon to finish talking to him instead of leaving while his back is turned without saying goodbye, then many fans will start raging that it's not "the real Batman". Even the most "kind-hearted" versions of Batman have unfortunately been infected by it and every other media version of Batman cribs from it. He's no longer a generally well-adjusted man who was inspired to take up his crusade by tragedy but grew beyond it like in the Golden/Silver/Bronze Ages, he's now an emotionally stunted weirdo who pushes people away because psychological issues. People would be confused nowadays if you showed them a scan of Batman walking down the street and greeting civilians from a Bronze Age comic or fighting crime during the day or goofing off with lighthearted jokes.

----------


## Caivu

> It would be somewhat mitigated if they had vivid personalities to make up for it but the vast majority of them don't.


Uh... yes they do. What are you talking about?

----------


## Tzigone

> That's not a valid defense. Just because they are in other cities or otherwise doing fuck all doesn't mean they need to exist at all. They are superfluous and add nothing that no-one else already does. It would be somewhat mitigated if they had vivid personalities to make up for it but the vast majority of them don't. They are just sitting there. Just because some fans would screech like harpies if they were to be culled does not justify their continued existence in the Bat-Family.


I disagree  - if that "screeching" resulted in reduced sales, that does justify it.

I do think they don't need to add more members. I don't think they "needed" all the ones they added.  But that doesn't mean the ones that already exist can't be used well, and developed into good characters themselves.  Alas, many of them are being used crappily right now.  And personalities have gotten to "segmented" for my flavor - like they have to be aspects of Bruce or dominated by one emotional trait (to make them "distinctive") instead of being well-rounded individuals.  Doesn't happen all the time, but does happen.  Discussed this on the Steph thread a week or two ago, I think.

I think they'd do better to have no more than two in Gotham with Batman at a time (interacting with him in any significant sense or being funded by him rather than just being in city), and only one minor at a time - the others growing up and moving on as time passes. And not being so tied to Bruce or wearing his emblems on their outfits or whatnot.  To me, spinning them off well is the key.  Dick was done well the Titans and even his early Nightwing-solo-era.  Tim was pretty good before his dad was killed. Steph was more Tim's supporting cast and Batfamily-adjacent back then. Helena Bertinelli never needed to be part of the Bats, IMO (maybe a holdover from Helena Wayne?).  Duke doing more separate from Bruce and with his own friends would be nice, but I guess that won't happen (his mini seemed to set up for it - did it not sell well). I'd have just had occasional crossovers where he worked with Tim or Damian, but not so much with Bruce.

One problem with Bruce's kids/proteges to me is that they aren't allowed to grow up, and they very often aren't allowed to measure up.  And they have to stay subordinate to him. It didn't always seem like it was going to be that way, but certainly has been for the last 20 years, and maybe even since the COIE-rewrite of Dick becoming Nightwing and the resurgence of his I-don't-measure-up or Bruce-doesn't-see-me-as-capable issues.  I really do think Barbara's character was harmed by rewriting her into a protege of Bruce's, too.  Actual de-aging with reboots doesn't help.

----------


## The Red Monk

> Uh... yes they do. What are you talking about?


Outside of the regulars like Dick, Jason, Damian, Barbara and some others like Cassandra Cain, the quality starts to rapidly drop off. Some that once were interesting (Tim Drake) are now long overdue to be retired because they have very little to offer. By the time you get to the likes of Duke Thomas and Harper Row, there's barely anything of interest there.




> I disagree  - if that "screeching" resulted in reduced sales, that does justify it.


If Gotham Girl or Duke Thomas disappeared tomorrow, I guarantee you that sales would be barely affected. That goes for many other Bat-Family members.

----------


## Godlike13

> I disagree  - if that "screeching" resulted in reduced sales, that does justify it.


And how many of them truly effect sales. Its not that the Bat family shouldn't exists, but that its too big. Even the ones that do sell just become more and more marginalized.

----------


## Blue22

I actually kinda like the idea of Flashpoint Thomas Wayne sticking around as one of those "good intention'd villains"

----------


## Jim Kelly

I accept that producing a lot of Batman-related product is a necessary evil for DC to stay solvent. But I think it really stops them from trying out new brands--and they've become too dependent on the Batman label (which is never a good thing in business, because if you've built your whole enterprise on selling one thing and that one thing goes out of demand--you're screwed).

I gave up on the Batman family comics when there were all these titles every month that you had to read because they all claimed to be important and if you didn't read them you were lost. So now if I read a Batman comic (or more likely a TPB), I'll read the stuff that isn't important--because then I don't have to know a ton of stuff about all the characters.

I would much rather DC produced individual Batman spin-off comics that exist in their own unverses, just so I don't have that problem. And they really need to develop new and different characters, to remain relevant.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Outside of the regulars like Dick, Jason, Damian, Barbara and some others like Cassandra Cain, the quality starts to rapidly drop off. Some that once were interesting (Tim Drake) are now long overdue to be retired because they have very little to offer. By the time you get to the likes of Duke Thomas and Harper Row, there's barely anything of interest there.
> 
> 
> 
> If Gotham Girl or Duke Thomas disappeared tomorrow, I guarantee you that sales would be barely affected. That goes for many other Bat-Family members.


The sales would barely be affected because they're already in another book. Batman's book. So if they're gone, most Batman buyers won't stop buying since Duke and Claire aren't why they pick a Batman book. 

It does affect sales if they have their own book. I don't know how many fans Duke has, but the series he starred in has been canceled twice, though both times it was on borrowed time. We Are Robin was only going to last until Bruce's cured of his amnesia, and The Signal was a limited miniseries, though I guess the fact that Duke never got his full series show that there's not enough interest to buy a book starring him.

DC then do what makes sense with characters that can't sustain a book. Fold them as a supporting cast in a different book. Duke in Outsiders, Azrael in Detective Comics and now Odyssey, Batwoman will appear later in Gotham Monsters or whatever the title... isn't this enough?

----------


## dietrich

Ha lols.
Seems to me the only bat currently doing FUCK ALL is Bruce Wayne. At least Ric is driving a cab  :Stick Out Tongue: 

l'm sorry I couldn't resist

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Batman needs a Bat-Family in his life, it is a very meaningful element to his narrative.

you get the exact same result for him with 3-4 members as you do with the current amount. Anything more than a focused, intimate core (and it mostly works with Dick, Babs and maybe one other Robin at most) and it gets superfluous. it's all about flooding the market with Bat-crap than anything else, because otherwise these characters have nowhere else to go to get noticed. it's why most Bat-centric media never gets that far, if they even go past having one Robin.

----------


## Frontier

> Batman needs a Bat-Family in his life, it is a very meaningful element to his narrative.
> 
> you get the exact same result for him with 3-4 members as you do with the current amount. Anything more than a focused, intimate core (and it mostly works with Dick, Babs and maybe one other Robin at most) and it gets superfluous. it's all about flooding the market with Bat-crap than anything else, because otherwise these characters have nowhere else to go to get noticed. it's why most Bat-centric media never gets that far, if they even go past having one Robin.


But Batman has different relationship with all the other Batfamily members so it's not like there isn't good dynamics or interactions that writers can mine, they just don't care to. 

Part of the problem is DC walking back some of the progress they made with characters and just the market being so unsustainable to have to condense characters as much as they have.

----------


## Godlike13

He does?
...

----------


## Pohzee

What does Duke add to Batman's narrative that is new? What does Harper add to Batman's character that is new?

----------


## Korath

> What does Duke add to Batman's narrative that is new? What does Harper add to Batman's character that is new?


Gnomon, the metahumans, grassroot social movement, a very different perspective on things (especially the relation between the Joker and Batman), the tie into more immortals than just Ra's, the actual days of Gotham and how all -from citizens to criminals- have adapted to the Batman striking at night. 

From the top of my head for Duke.

Harper had the more grunge, queer and poor elements (compared to Kate, who is a very wealthy queer person), a kind of funny, gritty and crafty character. As Bluebird, I agree that she was badly presented then, but it doesn't mean that she shouldn't be used more. Her dropping the vigilante act to actually help victims would also be interesting to see more.

----------


## Pohzee

Batman transcends genre. He can be in crime, supernatural, action, and sci-fi stories. He doesn't need Duke Thomas to be in his supporting cast to take him anywhere. He's on the Justice League. He teams up with superheroes all the time. Tying one to his ankle doesn't make this novel. And every Bat-Character has interacted with and have an opinion on the Joker. 

If Duke were his own independent hero, he could still occasionally team up with Batman just like Deadman does. Duke isn't a Bat-Character to help Batman, he's a Bat-Character to help Duke.

And those things you listed about Harper are good points about the diversity that she brings (which is a good thing.) But none of it shows what she brings to Batman as a character, not a franchise. She would have been a lot more interesting if she never put on a mask.

I also think Tim, Steph, and Jason are pointless in their current states, but that's a harder sell because at one point they did have a place.

----------


## Restingvoice

Again, the reason we're thinking they have to add anything to Batman is because they're Batman's supporting cast who doesn't have their own books and the reason they don't have their own books because they fail to launch, each for different reasons. All make sense.

However, the reason they also don't add much to Batman as a supporting cast in a Batman book is that the writers aren't using them. Duke in King's Batman was just there because he's too busy trying to pair Batman with Catwoman. He teased Duke's relationship with Claire but doesn't develop them. There should be a way to integrate them more during the whole arc but he didn't, and now Gotham Girl's a villain and Duke's in The Outsiders, as in, he has a place and a different writer, so there's even less reason for King to care about him. 

So we're back again to the fact that Duke is not a supporting cast in a Batman book, but part of an ensemble of an Outsiders book, so why does he need to contribute something to Batman, when he already has his own place, albeit as a part of an ensemble?

To summarize, the reason we feel the Batfam need to add something to Batman is that we view them as a Batman supporting cast, but if they have their own books, they don't need to add anything to Batman because they're main characters of their own books. At that point, they're not supporting cast anymore.

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## Pohzee

Why should the writers have to accommodate new characters in favor of Batman? This is EXACTLY the problem with them. They exist for their own sake, not Batman's. Dick!Robin didn't need fleshed out upon his introduction. He was there to compliment Batman. He was a supporting character. Now ever character is the star of their own show. Except it isn't their show, it's Batman's and he's been here 75 years without them.

Duke would be just as good or even better as an independent character who occasionally teamed up with Batman. Like Deadman.

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## Korath

> Why should the writers have to accommodate new characters in favor of Batman? This is EXACTLY the problem with them. They exist for their own sake, not Batman's. Dick!Robin didn't need fleshed out upon his introduction. He was there to compliment Batman. He was a supporting character. Now ever character is the star of their own show. Except it isn't their show, it's Batman's and he's been here 75 years without them.
> 
> Duke would be just as good or even better as an independent character who occasionally teamed up with Batman. Like Deadman.


For starter, Batman doesn't deserve to have characters here only to prop him. Just like every other one out there, he needs to stand by his own merit (and seems to do that rather well). It isn't Batman show. It hasn"t been for a very long time, and he doesn't get special treatment to prevent new characters, and thus new story-telling potential, to appear just because he's older. 

Furthermore, I don't believe that Batman is fitting for all kind of stories, just like Superman or Wonder Woman aren't. Stories like Metal or Last Knight on Earth works because he's part of a larger world, where he is just oen cog and was thus able to use elements of other mythos, in a story which involves those mythos. 

But by himself, Batman can't be the main character in a grassroot social justice movement for Gotham. How could he when his public and heroic persona are both so removed from the lives of the common citizens ? He was never part of the worlds of the poors of Gotham. Never but for one moment, after two gunshots. Samewise, he isn't a metahuman. You can't put him at the forefront of a story about an immortal meta and his lineage without him usurping the descendants of said immortal. 

And I'm using Duke here, but it's also true for Jason. Batman CAN'T be an Outlaw. He can't be the one befriending Artemis and Bizarro and forming a sort of outwardly broken but in truth really functional and charming farmily with them. Or he can't be that young teenager divided between two legacies which are unreconciliable like Damian. Or he can't be that young biy who lost his parents to crime but managed to preserve and rekindle a gentle and charming nature because a mentor who had suffered the same thing helped him when it was needed, like Dick.

But all those characters almost never get the chance to truly stretch their wings and take off, because of several campaigns against them, and a general rejection by fans, who want "Batman" but not "Batman" but won't trust a book about non-Bat characters (the centric ones at that) because "It'll have low sales thus will be stopped really soon", creating a constant vicious circle where incredible potentials are squandered.

And so, we end with Deadman. A character who, expect for perhaps one story every five years, won't appear anywhere, because he has been billed as so niche and devoid of other potential that he's just there for the stories when the deads are to speak, and that nothing more plot convenient can be contrived by the writer.

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## Restingvoice

Yes, people who buy Batman book for Batman, not for Duke, or Claire, or Harper. When they're acting as a supporting cast in Batman book, they don't matter that much compared to the titular character.

Which is why I'm confused. Why people keep being bothered by their existence? If they don't matter that much, what's the problem? They're supporting cast, they act as a supporting cast, sometimes they're important sometimes they're not... so does Gordon and Alfred. What's the difference? Why are they a problem?

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## SiegePerilous02

> But Batman has different relationship with all the other Batfamily members so it's not like there isn't good dynamics or interactions that writers can mine, they just don't care to. 
> 
> Part of the problem is DC walking back some of the progress they made with characters and just the market being so unsustainable to have to condense characters as much as they have.


I really don't know that he does. Not different enough in the current set up to really have many of them stand out from each other, at least, especially the further down we go to the newer characters. All the reboots and retcons definitely don't help, I think the likes of Tim and Cass were better off before all that and when the cast was smaller. Cass has had her dynamic with Bruce erased and now Babs is back as Batgirl, and Tim was better off when he was the only Robin and Dick was the only former Robin present. His decline started as soon as Damian was introduced and Jason came back as Red Hood, so he has a new Robin as competition but two former Robins to be compared to. And that's just all the Robins and Batgirls competing against each other before we get into the Azraels, the Batwomen, and the Huntresses. 

It all orbits around Batman, who is largely an independent character by himself and doesn't need many of these other individual pieces to work. They need him more than the reverse. Especially the likes of present Tim and Steph, Luke, Harper and Duke who don't really enrichen his character on this already crowded stage. Like is DCAU Batman any less of a definitive version of the character, if not THE definitive version, for having a much smaller Bat-Family?

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## Frontier

> I really don't know that he does. Not different enough in the current set up to really have many of them stand out from each other, at least, especially the further down we go to the newer characters. All the reboots and retcons definitely don't help, I think the likes of Tim and Cass were better off before all that and when the cast was smaller. Cass has had her dynamic with Bruce erased and now Babs is back as Batgirl, and Tim was better off when he was the only Robin and Dick was the only former Robin present. His decline started as soon as Damian was introduced and Jason came back as Red Hood, so he has a new Robin as competition but two former Robins to be compared to. And that's just all the Robins and Batgirls competing against each other before we get into the Azraels, the Batwomen, and the Huntresses.


He does if you look into the character history and interaction the characters have had over the years. Bruce's relationship with Dick isn't his relationship with Jason, which isn't his relationship with Tim, etc. Ditto for the Batgirls. 

Tim was in a better place as Red Robin Post-Crisis then he was when the New 52 hit and he got shipped off to the Titans editorial office. It's been a struggle to recover him since then.

Cass and Steph defintiely got screwed over by DC editorial and Babs becoming Batgirl again. Heck, in some ways Babs becoming Batgirl again kind of screwed herself over. 

There's only really been one consistent Batwoman for a long time. I don't think Helena Wayne had much of an impact in Gotham compared to Bertinelli so I don't think she's an issue. The Azrael most people think of is Jean-Paul.  



> It all orbits around Batman, who is largely an independent character by himself and doesn't need many of these other individual pieces to work. They need him more than the reverse. Especially the likes of present Tim and Steph, Luke, Harper and Duke who don't really enrichen his character on this already crowded stage. Like is DCAU Batman any less of a definitive version of the character, if not THE definitive version, for having a much smaller Bat-Family?


B:TAS is definitive in a lot of ways but it also didn't showcase the many ways the Batfamily evolved or changed over time. 

Like, to most fans now the lack of a proper Jason Todd or Red Hood would be seen as "less definitive." Or showcasing the Batgirl successions. Or Damian as Robin, even. 

Just as a lot of people see the DCAU as the definitive take on the DC Universe even when there was so much they didn't tackle or showcase. That's why we get different interpretations like _Young Justice_, _Beware the Batman_, or the Arkham games that are allowed to adapt that kind of stuff.

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## Godlike13

I dont know, a lot of what new Bat family additions do is try to recapture familiar relationships of old.

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## Frontier

> I dont know, a lot of what new Bat family additions do is try to recapture familiar relationships of old.


Well, there were rumors Harper was created because Snyder couldn't use either Cass or Steph and you can kinda see that, and Duke was there because he wanted to write a Robin-esque character that wasn't Damian. 

I think that's probably why both characters have struggled so much to find their own niche.

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## SiegePerilous02

> He does if you look into the character history and interaction the characters have had over the years. Bruce's relationship with Dick isn't his relationship with Jason, which isn't his relationship with Tim, etc. Ditto for the Batgirls. 
> 
> Tim was in a better place as Red Robin Post-Crisis then he was when the New 52 hit and he got shipped off to the Titans editorial office. It's been a struggle to recover him since then.
> 
> Cass and Steph defintiely got screwed over by DC editorial and Babs becoming Batgirl again. Heck, in some ways Babs becoming Batgirl again kind of screwed herself over. 
> 
> There's only really been one consistent Batwoman for a long time. I don't think Helena Wayne had much of an impact in Gotham compared to Bertinelli so I don't think she's an issue. The Azrael most people think of is Jean-Paul.


But I think a lot of that is due to all of these characters not really meant to be around at the same time in specific forms, which is why the issue of bloat is really bad now compared to even just the early 2000s. Stuff like Jason's death and Babs as Batgirl were in the history, but were in the past and now Tim was Robin and there was only one other Batgirl. Now, Babs is back as Batgirl without really any history or role to make Cass and Steph distinct.

Tim fared better then compared to the New 52, but that's not saying much. Red Robin is the dumbest possible name they could give him and just SCREAMS "we can't call him Robin anymore, but we already have two other adult Robins, we're fresh out of ideas." Like there is fan demand to have all these characters around at all times and not always a lot of material or desire from DC to use them, so they are all just hanging around with not much else to do. Either in Batman's immediate orbit or elsewhere. And since Batman is a major player in the larger DCU and always has new stuff thrown at him, it's not as if he's ever hurting for material to interact with. 




> B:TAS is definitive in a lot of ways but it also didn't showcase the many ways the Batfamily evolved or changed over time. 
> 
> Like, to most fans now the lack of a proper Jason Todd or Red Hood would be seen as "less definitive." Or showcasing the Batgirl successions. Or Damian as Robin, even.


That's because it came out before most of them were introduced, so it was utilizing everyone who mattered at the time. And Batman made his strides in other media, between the Adam West show, BTAS and the sporadic live action films and video games, either before or around the time these other characters were being invented and they developed their fan followings. He largely became the most popular superhero in the world on his own, which is why some fans (not all) see the most of the rest of the Bat-Family as tacked on extras rather than anything 100% necessary for Batman to work. Some of it more interesting than other parts, but extras nontheless. Bruce is a fully formed character there, he's largely the same if a little more miserable in the comics, and the new glut of characters aren't really telling us anything we didn't already know. 

Obviously their fans would disagree, but that's part of the larger debate. Does Batman benefit from their inclusion, or do they need him more than the reverse?

----------


## Frontier

> But I think a lot of that is due to all of these characters not really meant to be around at the same time in specific forms, which is why the issue of bloat is really bad now compared to even just the early 2000s. Stuff like Jason's death and Babs as Batgirl were in the history, but were in the past and now Tim was Robin and there was only one other Batgirl. Now, Babs is back as Batgirl without really any history or role to make Cass and Steph distinct.


I think regressing Babs as Batgirl ended up being very problematic, especially when it ended up taking away Cass and Steph's entire history to boot. Heck, it took away some of Babs' development. 

Jason isn't an issue because he's so distinctive as a character. Even Tim as Red Robin felt more distinctive then the character he is now, especially since he was still primed to be Bruce's partner before the reboot. 



> Tim fared better then compared to the New 52, but that's not saying much. Red Robin is the dumbest possible name they could give him and just SCREAMS "we can't call him Robin anymore, but we already have two other adult Robins, we're fresh out of ideas." Like there is fan demand to have all these characters around at all times and not always a lot of material or desire from DC to use them, so they are all just hanging around with not much else to do. Either in Batman's immediate orbit or elsewhere. And since Batman is a major player in the larger DCU and always has new stuff thrown at him, it's not as if he's ever hurting for material to interact with.


Considering the situation he was in when he came up with the identity and the kind of character he was, I don't think Red Robin was a terrible choice in name. At least the material he was starring in was actually good. 

I think the lack of desire from DC is a major reason the characters or certain Batfamily members are floundering as much as they are. And DC Editorial's issues with legacy heroes. 

I think it's an exaggeration to say they're just carry-ons or just hanging around close enough to touch Batman's cape. Most of them are in limbo and not doing anything. 



> That's because it came out before most of them were introduced, so it was utilizing everyone who mattered at the time. And Batman made his strides in other media, between the Adam West show, BTAS and the sporadic live action films and video games, either before or around the time these other characters were being invented and they developed their fan followings. He largely became the most popular superhero in the world on his own, which is why some fans (not all) see the most of the rest of the Bat-Family as tacked on extras rather than anything 100% necessary for Batman to work. Some of it more interesting than other parts, but extras nontheless. Bruce is a fully formed character there, he's largely the same if a little more miserable in the comics, and the new glut of characters aren't really telling us anything we didn't already know.


BTAS came out in the 90's, so it was really just when they were all being introduced and utilized. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl had not been as relevant since then and Dick Grayson wasn't even Robin, even if he was still a focal character. 

I mean, if we're talking video games, the most popular Batman games came well after these characters were introduced. Heck, Babs' first appearance in the Arkham games is as Oracle.

But those other characters can examine the and explore different or new facets of the franchise that weren't there before, or reach an audience that normal Batman stories can't. That's part of the appeal of creating new characters and diversifying the cast of characters in Gotham who can explore different facets of the mythos and appeal to different kind of audiences. 



> Obviously their fans would disagree, but that's part of the larger debate. Does Batman benefit from their inclusion, or do they need him more than the reverse?


It should be a symbiotic relationship. I don't think things have to be pragmatic enough that it's one over the other.

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## Pohzee

Red Robin had a place because there was no Nightwing.

Harper Rowe was inspired by a cosplay at a comic con. Not to tell a Batman story. To tell a Harper story.

Duke was made because Harper failed.

Imo

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## TheBatman

BTAS didn't need the wider bat family to be definitive. In fact, to me it's definitive in how it kept the Bat Family to its most essential elements: Bruce, Dick, Babs, and a new Robin when Dick moves on to Nightwing. That's all you really need at the end of the day.

Also, Timmverse Tim Drake ended up having elements of Jason Todd in his characterization anyway, right down to having a tragic encounter with The Joker.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Jason isn't an issue because he's so distinctive as a character. Even Tim as Red Robin felt more distinctive then the character he is now, especially since he was still primed to be Bruce's partner before the reboot.


Jason is distinct, yes and I can see the appeal. I largely think he brings baggage and a dynamic with Bruce that I feel Bruce can do without, but I know I'm in the minority on that on these boards.

Tim's not my guy so I don't see the appeal of him even when he's at his best, but I have no doubt he was better written then. But people expect Robin to be Batman's partner, and when e have a successful Robin in Damian, why wouldn't he be Batman's partner over Tim? 




> Considering the situation he was in when he came up with the identity and the kind of character he was, I don't think Red Robin was a terrible choice in name. At least the material he was starring in was actually good.


He's named after a restaurant. It's not a good name.




> BTAS came out in the 90's, so it was really just when they were all being introduced and utilized. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl had not been as relevant since then and Dick Grayson wasn't even Robin, even if he was still a focal character.


Yeah, but Babs as Oracle hadn't yet taken off like it would later on and there were no other Batgirls to choose from. BTAS ensured that a new generation of kids associated the name Batgirl with Barbara, and that feeds into other media portrayals. Dick is always used as the first Robin no matter what adaptation we're looking at, and adaptations seem to feel the need to condense the Robins down here and there. BTAS Dick used a similar costume to Tim, Tim was given Jason's backstory and a similar fate in the DCAU, (God help us) Shumacher's Dick was orphaned when his parents were killed by Two-Face and had some anger in him like Jason. The Nolan films, the definitive take for many modern audiences, just combined all the Robins into one general character and slapped a new name on him. Zack Snyder almost had Dick be the Robin that was killed, and while I'm glad that didn't pan out, I can kind of see the logic in it. "Batman and Robin" is essential for a take on Batman, not so much all of them. We will see what Reeves wants to do, but he is unlikely to squeeze everything in. YJ has all the Robins present, but can't focus on all of them in too much depth. 




> I mean, if we're talking video games, the most popular Batman games came well after these characters were introduced. Heck, Babs' first appearance in the Arkham games is as Oracle.


She also got the DLC to be Batgirl. I haven't kept tabs on the Arkham games in a while, but while they utilized more of the Bat-Family than most adaptations, they didn't use all of them. And even did some weird stuff like have Tim and Babs be in a romance because Batgirl loves Robin, doesn't matter which one apparently. 




> It should be a symbiotic relationship. I don't think things have to be pragmatic enough that it's one over the other.


It should be. I'm not so certain it always is. In general, I've found modern Batman to be a lot less engaging of a character even when he's surrounded by all these people. If anything he was more enjoyable back when Dick as his only Robin. 




> Red Robin had a place because there was no Nightwing.


Yep.

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## Bat-Meal

> I haven't kept tabs on the Arkham games in a while, but while they utilized more of the Bat-Family than most adaptations, they didn't use all of them. And even did some weird stuff like have Tim and Babs be in a romance because Batgirl loves Robin, doesn't matter which one apparently.


I just finished Arkham Knight last year, let's see what I can remember.

*Bat-Family:*

Oracle - tech support, plus rescue her 
Robin - team-up, plus rescue him
Nightwing - team-up, plus rescue him
Red Hood - no team-up, of course
Catwoman - team-up, plus rescue her multiple times

*DLC:* 
Batgirl, with Robin team-up
Nightwing 
Red Hood
Robin
Catwoman

All of these DLCs were really short though.  In the main game it felt like the Robins and Catwoman were there just so you could keep rescuing them all the time, like playing as Batman meant babysitting the family in addition to fighting crime.  Not one of them could get by on their own without Bruce coming to the rescue.  IMHO, it was sexist that there were 3 Robins (all playable to some degree), and apart from a very short DLC of the past - no Batgirls (or playable Huntress or Batwoman).  Only Catwoman.

*Other:*

Azrael - optional side mission

*Confirmed Existence, no cameos:*

Huntress - mentioned in a broadcast (in a prior Arkham game)
Kate Kane - answering machine message inviting Bruce to her engagement party with Maggie, and checking-in on him (no confirmation of being Batwoman in the Arkham universe)

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## Frontier

> Tim's not my guy so I don't see the appeal of him even when he's at his best, but I have no doubt he was better written then. But people expect Robin to be Batman's partner, and when e have a successful Robin in Damian, why wouldn't he be Batman's partner over Tim?


I like Bruce and Damian but Morrison set the precedent that he and Damian didn't work well together as Batman and Robin. Especially compared to how well Damian gelled with Dick. 



> Yeah, but Babs as Oracle hadn't yet taken off like it would later on and there were no other Batgirls to choose from. BTAS ensured that a new generation of kids associated the name Batgirl with Barbara, and that feeds into other media portrayals. Dick is always used as the first Robin no matter what adaptation we're looking at, and adaptations seem to feel the need to condense the Robins down here and there. BTAS Dick used a similar costume to Tim, Tim was given Jason's backstory and a similar fate in the DCAU, (God help us) Shumacher's Dick was orphaned when his parents were killed by Two-Face and had some anger in him like Jason. The Nolan films, the definitive take for many modern audiences, just combined all the Robins into one general character and slapped a new name on him. Zack Snyder almost had Dick be the Robin that was killed, and while I'm glad that didn't pan out, I can kind of see the logic in it. "Batman and Robin" is essential for a take on Batman, not so much all of them. We will see what Reeves wants to do, but he is unlikely to squeeze everything in. YJ has all the Robins present, but can't focus on all of them in too much depth.


I know all of that, but I don't think that takes away from the value and necessity of the characters they didn't use or the aspects of them they didn't mine, especially when other adaptions end up using them to good effect, especially when they think traits that worked well for their successors are worth just giving to their predesccesors. 



> She also got the DLC to be Batgirl. I haven't kept tabs on the Arkham games in a while, but while they utilized more of the Bat-Family than most adaptations, they didn't use all of them. And even did some weird stuff like have Tim and Babs be in a romance because Batgirl loves Robin, doesn't matter which one apparently.


The _Knight_ thing with Babs and Tim was weird but, again, there was more of an attempt there to use more then what previous adaptions had used, which is what I was getting at. 



> It should be. I'm not so certain it always is. In general, I've found modern Batman to be a lot less engaging of a character even when he's surrounded by all these people. If anything he was more enjoyable back when Dick as his only Robin.


For me it's just that modern Batman isn't as well written with them as he used to be. None of the strong interpersonal dynamics or relationships of the Batfamily are a thing anymore, it's all just vague, nebulous, relationships and Batman having inconsistent levels of closeness or relationships to his family.

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## CPSparkles

> I like Bruce and Damian but Morrison set the precedent that he and Damian didn't work well together as Batman and Robin. Especially compared to how well Damian gelled with Dick.


That was just shortly after Bruce returned and before he got to know Damian. Tynion and Tomasi on Tec established that Damian and Bruce can and do work well as Batman and Robin.

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## Aahz

> Also, Timmverse Tim Drake ended up having elements of Jason Todd in his characterization anyway, right down to having a tragic encounter with The Joker.


Imo it is more like the Timmverse Jason Todd ending up with Tim's name.
The DCAU Tim hasn't really any really elements of Tim that are not shared by all Robins.

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## dancj

> Post-Frank-Miller stuff, really. I was reluctant to blame Miller initially, since his version of Batman made sense and was crafted specifically for that world and figured it was just hack writers copying what worked with Miller without understanding why it worked, but then I saw Miller himself kind of pushing that same interpretation everywhere else and yeah, fuck Frank Miller for that. Problem is, it's entrenched too deep now. If you have Batman talking, laughing and politely conversing with someone like Superman, instead of acting like a standoffish dick who is one sentence away from telling Clark to go fuck himself for asking him how his day was or waiting for Gordon to finish talking to him instead of leaving while his back is turned without saying goodbye, then many fans will start raging that it's not "the real Batman". Even the most "kind-hearted" versions of Batman have unfortunately been infected by it and every other media version of Batman cribs from it. He's no longer a generally well-adjusted man who was inspired to take up his crusade by tragedy but grew beyond it like in the Golden/Silver/Bronze Ages, he's now an emotionally stunted weirdo who pushes people away because psychological issues. People would be confused nowadays if you showed them a scan of Batman walking down the street and greeting civilians from a Bronze Age comic or fighting crime during the day or goofing off with lighthearted jokes.


I have a theory.

In The Wonder Years, the main character tended to learn life lessons each episode - usually "don't be a dickhead" it seems.  Unfortunately the way he learned those lessons tended to be for him to act like a dickhead - and then later realise his mistake.  The net result of this - for me at least - was that this character was a complete dickhead.  He was a bully, he got off with his brother's girlfriend, he regularly treated his best friend like crap and was generally an arrogant prick.

I think the same thing might happen with Batman.  Writers want to take him through an arc where he comes out lighter on the other side.  So of course they have him acting like a dick for most of the story.

It doesn't bother me as much with Batman though, but he works quite well as a dick.

----------


## dietrich

> Imo it is more like the Timmverse Jason Todd ending up with Tim's name.
> The DCAU Tim hasn't really any really elements of Tim that are not shared by all Robins.


You are correct. The role was written for Jason [the writers found his story more interesting] but higher ups made them name the character after the current Robin at the time. Tim

----------


## TheRay

Have Batman and Green Arrow had a conversation about their similarities? If not that should be given at least a limited series.

----------


## Jim Kelly

In the 1960s and 1970s, when I read reprints of Batman stories from the 1940s and 1950s, I would get jazzed to find these stories from a period that I knew little about. I remember when I got the hardcover BATMAN FROM THE 30'S TO THE 70'S, I couldn't contain my excitement. Just the pages that showed thumbnails of old covers from the '40s and the '50s excited me so much. And I loved all those stories where the mythology of the Batman was being built up. Stories about the Batcave, the Batmobile, the Utility Belt. I still get a tingle thinking about these discoveries.

I wonder if kids feel the same way now. When they find info about a Batman they never knew before, one that doesn't jibe with the present version, are they excited? Or is there just so much available without any effort to find it, that kids find all this dusty old stuff really boring and not interesting whatsoever. I mean, I've seen some people react to the old comics with complete contempt--like they were hurt by such comics even existing and not being the Batman they wanted. I wonder if that's now the common response.

----------


## Pohzee

> In the 1960s and 1970s, when I read reprints of Batman stories from the 1940s and 1950s, I would get jazzed to find these stories from a period that I knew little about. I remembering when I got the hardcover BATMAN FROM THE 30'S TO THE 70'S, I couldn't contain my excitement. Just the pages that showed thumbnails of old covers from the '40s and the '50s excited me so much. And I loved all those stories where the mythology of the Batman was being built up. Stories about the Batcave, the Batmobile, the Utility Belt. I still get a tingle thinking about these discoveries.
> 
> I wonder if kids feel the same way now. When they find info about a Batman they never knew before, one that doesn't jibe with the present version, are they excited? Or is there just so much available without any effort to find it, that kids find all this dusty old stuff really boring and not interesting whatsoever. I mean, I've seen some people react to the old comics with complete contempt--like they were hurt by such comics even existing and not being the Batman they wanted. I wonder if that's now the common response.


Growing up in the 21st century, I was still the same way. I read my copy of the DC Encyclopedia until the binding broke, and then some. The only comics I owned and read were reprints from the '40s newspaper strips and the black and white phonebook DC Showcase presents from the '60s. Every single one of those stories is burned into my memory. Anything about equipment or the Batcave was revisted often.

----------


## bretmaverick2

Not sure this is controversial but....

I would take Kathy Kane Batwoman over Kate Kane Batwoman every single day.  

A Batfamily member that isnt all dark and grim, a lighter tone.  Every Batfamily member seems to mimic his dark and gritty tone. 

Kathy Kane IS Batwoman.  And Betty Kane IS Bat-Girl (note the spelling).

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## Caivu

> Not sure this is controversial but....
> 
> I would take Kathy Kane Batwoman over Kate Kane Batwoman every single day.  
> 
> A Batfamily member that isn’t all dark and grim, a lighter tone.  Every Batfamily member seems to mimic his dark and gritty tone.


Aren't you forgetting about Dick, or Barbara, or Steph? Why not go with them if you want a lighter character, rather than replacing one, especially such a good one?

Other than being light, why do you think Kathy is in any way a compelling character?

----------


## Jim Kelly

> Aren't you forgetting about Dick, or Barbara, or Steph? Why not go with them if you want a lighter character, rather than replacing one, especially such a good one?
> 
> Other than being light, why do you think Kathy is in any way a compelling character?


How would Kathy Kane be replacing Kate Kane? Isn't it the other way around? Kathy Kane was the first female member of the Batman family (if you don't count Catwoman), being introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS 233 (July 1956)--created by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff. Kate Kane has supplanted the original Batwoman.

I wouldn't want to speak for bretmaverick2, but Kathy comes from a period when the Batman family was as light as could be. The only family members that can compete with her for that tone are Bat-Mite, Bathound and Bat-Girl (Betty Kane). Even Dick Grayson was introduced at a time when the comics were grittier. And while the 1960s "New Look" Batman wasn't as dark as the 1970s (when Man-Bat was introduced), the "New Look"  comics were a little more adult than the comics just prior, so when Barbara Gordon made her million dollar debut, she was more serious-minded. Thus, if you're looking for a character that represents the lighter tone of Batman comics, then Kathy Kane is your woman.

----------


## bretmaverick2

Jim Kelly is exactly correct 

There could easily be two Batwomen. Why not?  It’s not that I don’t like Kate. I just see room for Kathy as well.

----------


## Caivu

> How would Kathy Kane be replacing Kate Kane? Isn't it the other way around? Kathy Kane was the first female member of the Batman family (if you don't count Catwoman), being introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS 233 (July 1956)--created by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff. Kate Kane has supplanted the original Batwoman.


Kate is the current Batwoman and has been for 13 years. Kathy hasn't been Batwoman since, what, the mid-80s? There's no overlap between them, and bringing Kathy back as Batwoman now would indeed be replacing Kate (and for no good reason). 




> Jim Kelly is exactly correct 
> 
> There could easily be two Batwomen. Why not?  It’s not that I don’t like Kate. I just see room for Kathy as well.


When you say things like this:




> I would take Kathy Kane Batwoman over Kate Kane Batwoman every single day.





> Kathy Kane IS Batwoman.


That doesn't exactly make it sound like you want both to exist.

----------


## Jim Kelly

I would take chocolate ice cream over vanilla. I would take a Hawaiian pizza over pepperoni. That's just stating a preference. Some people like fun stories, that doesn't mean they don't also like gritty stories--it's just saying that one kind of story happens to please them more than another.

----------


## Aahz

> How would Kathy Kane be replacing Kate Kane? Isn't it the other way around? Kathy Kane was the first female member of the Batman family (if you don't count Catwoman), being introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS 233 (July 1956)--created by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff. Kate Kane has supplanted the original Batwoman.


Honestly Kathy was imo not a particularity good character, and to me it seems like she was only created as stand in for Catwoman, who could not be used due to the comics codes.

And when it comes to the first female member appart from Catwoman, you cold also make a case for "Roberta the Girl Wonder".

----------


## Aahz

> Kathy hasn't been Batwoman since, what, the mid-80s?


She stopped appearing in the Btamn comics in 1964, then had a few guest appearences in Batman Family in 1977 and 1978 and was killed in 1979 in Detective Comics #485.

----------


## Jackalope89

Kate is fine as Batwoman. Trying to shoehorn in a minor character not seen since the 1970s into the same role (40 years) is unnecessary. And now with Bruce related to the Kanes, Kathy Kane would be an aunt or something.

----------


## witchboy

> Honestly Kathy was imo not a particularity good character, and to me it seems like she was only created as stand in for Catwoman, who could not be used due to the comics codes.
> 
> And when it comes to the first female member appart from Catwoman, you cold also make a case for "Roberta the Girl Wonder".


I don't think I had heard that Catwoman wasn't allowed to be used due to the comics code. I'll have to look into that.
Kathy's creation actually has an even more ugly background than that. She was created to fight the image that Batman (and Robin) were gay. So considering her creation was inspired by reactionary homophobia, there's some justice in the character being re-imagined as a strong gay person. 
I am fond of Kathy all the same in those campy 50s and 60s comics, but that character as she wasn't written wouldn't work today. 
What would you do with Kathy now if she were brought back? There's already a Batwoman, and a Batgirl, and many many other Batfamily members. I can't see a place for her. And as the Kanes are now related to the Waynes, she couldn't be a love interest for Bruce either, which was initially the whole point of her character.
If Kate were replaced by Kathy it would be a PR disaster, as you'd be erasing arguably DC's more prominent gay character, and arguably the most prominent lesbian in comics.

----------


## charliehustle415

Bruce is only interesting as a older Bruce Wayne. 

Seeing him in Dark Knight Returns or Batman Beyond is far more interesting then his current characterization simply because as a reader I want to know how did things go so wrong. 

Fans may always him to be the brooding grimdark hero, but in Batman Beyond he is the exemplar of a man who has lost all semblance of emotional intelligence and would have been forever alone if not for Terry. Bruce from DKR is the same and he was looking for a "out" trying to constantly push himself. 

Bruce as a young man is only interesting because I have hope that he will escape the trauma and when he stubbornly stays the same he becomes boring. 

This is why New 52 Batman & Robin is so good, Bruce was basically happy and you can imagine him stopping all of the shenanigans and being a father to his son(s).

----------


## Bat-Meal

> Kathy's creation actually has an even more ugly background than that. She was created to fight the image that Batman (and Robin) were gay. So considering her creation was inspired by reactionary homophobia, there's some justice in the character being re-imagined as a strong gay person. 
> 
> ...If Kate were replaced by Kathy it would be a PR disaster, as you'd be erasing arguably DC's more prominent gay character, and arguably the most prominent lesbian in comics.


Yes, Kathy was created for the wrong reasons.  Then re-purposed as Kate for the right reasons.

https://www.history.com/news/gay-batman-fears-batwoman

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yes, Kathy was created for the wrong reasons.  Then re-purposed as Kate for the right reasons.
> 
> https://www.history.com/news/gay-batman-fears-batwoman


I would like to see Kate and Bruce interact more, either with or without the costumes. Not saying a constant team-up, but making it happen a little more often than crises that require most of the city's vigilantes to begin with. They are cousins, each took their own path after tragic childhood traumas (a running theme for most Bats it seems), and both ended up as vigilantes.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Bruce and Dick's dynamic is more older brother/younger brother than father/son and the shift in writing to the latter is weird. Bruce is at most a little over a decade older than Dick, they should be more like best buds (with Clark being his other one). It's why the casting in live action Titans is so weird, the age difference is nowhere near that big. 




> Bruce is only interesting as a older Bruce Wayne. 
> 
> Seeing him in Dark Knight Returns or Batman Beyond is far more interesting then his current characterization simply because as a reader I want to know how did things go so wrong. 
> 
> Fans may always him to be the brooding grimdark hero, but in Batman Beyond he is the exemplar of a man who has lost all semblance of emotional intelligence and would have been forever alone if not for Terry. Bruce from DKR is the same and he was looking for a "out" trying to constantly push himself. 
> 
> Bruce as a young man is only interesting because I have hope that he will escape the trauma and when he stubbornly stays the same he becomes boring. 
> 
> This is why New 52 Batman & Robin is so good, Bruce was basically happy and you can imagine him stopping all of the shenanigans and being a father to his son(s).


He used to be pretty laid back and at peace with himself and his life before Frank Miller, when he was younger. 
I miss that dude. He was so much better than what we've got now.

----------


## Tzigone

> I would like to see Kate and Bruce interact more, either with or without the costumes. Not saying a constant team-up, but making it happen a little more often than crises that require most of the city's vigilantes to begin with. They are cousins, each took their own path after tragic childhood traumas (a running theme for most Bats it seems), and both ended up as vigilantes.


My controversial opinion is that I like Kate as re-imagining of Kathy (so both should not exist), and as a version of such that is not Bruce's cousin.  Ship has sailed, though.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> My controversial opinion is that I like Kate as re-imagining of Kathy (so both should not exist), and as a version of such that is not Bruce's cousin.  Ship has sailed, though.


I like what Morrison did with Kathy Kane a lot, but yeah. As originally intended by Rucka, Kate seemed to be the first and only Batwoman, a modernization of Kathy, and wasn't part of Bruce's extended family.

Establishing Martha as one of those Kanes and having Bruce date his aunt was also really weird.

----------


## byrd156

> Bruce and Dick's dynamic is more older brother/younger brother than father/son and the shift in writing to the latter is weird. Bruce is at most a little over a decade older than Dick, they should be more like best buds (with Clark being his other one). It's why the casting in live action Titans is so weird, the age difference is nowhere near that big. 
> 
> 
> 
> He used to be pretty laid back and at peace with himself and his life before Frank Miller, when he was younger. 
> I miss that dude. He was so much better than what we've got now.


The casting is weird in Titans is because they wanted Iain Glenn. Love the actor, we even share the same name but it was a bad choice. I don't really see how that reflects the father/son or brothers dynamic.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The casting is weird in Titans is because they wanted Iain Glenn. Love the actor, we even share the same name but it was a bad choice. I don't really see how that reflects the father/son or brothers dynamic.


IDK, I don't watch the show, just the idea isn't appealing. 
I think it reflects the father/son shift we see in general in making Bruce "Bat-Dad" because he is clearly way older. There is no way they are close to being peers age wise, which is what I prefer for Bruce and Dick.

----------


## Pohzee

Even weirder- making him Bat-Dad to Nightwing ages him up more than Bat-Bro, which is the scary thing that Didio hates

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Even weirder- making him Bat-Dad to Nightwing ages him up more than Bat-Bro, which is the scary thing that Didio hates


I know, right?
At one point pre-Crisis I believe it was stated that Dick became Nightwing at 19-20 and Bruce was around 29, that's nowhere near old enough for the latter to be "father figure" material. So Didio's weird hang up with Dick's generation making Bruce's look old makes no sense. If anything, the next two down do that.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Even weirder- making him Bat-Dad to Nightwing ages him up more than Bat-Bro, which is the scary thing that Didio hates


I don't think DiDio has has much say in things outside of comics. That's more Geoff Johns (thankfully).

----------


## Bat-Meal

> I would like to see Kate and Bruce interact more, either with or without the costumes. Not saying a constant team-up, but making it happen a little more often than crises that require most of the city's vigilantes to begin with. They are cousins, each took their own path after tragic childhood traumas (a running theme for most Bats it seems), and both ended up as vigilantes.


I think many people would like to see that.  We got some of that in Tec for a while, but more would be nice, and without all the teenagers.  I think they would step on each others toes somewhat, which could be fun to see, since they are both kinda control-freaks.  

Be more fun that they team-up occasionally (or just socialise) than writers keep pitting them against each other for the dramas: Batwoman first solo, Tec 'Batmen' run, near end of second Batwoman solo - quit making them fight all the time, it's getting old.

----------


## millernumber1

> I like what Morrison did with Kathy Kane a lot, but yeah. As originally intended by Rucka, Kate seemed to be the first and only Batwoman, a modernization of Kathy, and wasn't part of Bruce's extended family.
> 
> Establishing Martha as one of those Kanes and having Bruce date his aunt was also really weird.


I thought Morrison's idea of Kathy was later transmogrified in Grayson to be Luka Netz?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I thought Morrison's idea of Kathy was later transmogrified in Grayson to be Luka Netz?


Transmogrify it back or have her be a third daughter since they might as well be different characters

----------


## Restingvoice

> I know, right?
> At one point pre-Crisis I believe it was stated that Dick became Nightwing at 19-20 and Bruce was around 29, that's nowhere near old enough for the latter to be "father figure" material. So Didio's weird hang up with Dick's generation making Bruce's look old makes no sense. If anything, the next two down do that.


The semi exact words he said was Nightwing fans like Dick to keep growing so he doesn't want him to get older than Batman. It wasn't even about father figure or making Bruce old, it's about making Dick older than Bruce. 

I don't know if he believes that literally, which doesn't make sense since that's not gonna happen, or he meant in maturity, which already happened but subtle and not often enough people can miss it, or he's talking about character evolution, which makes sense since he likes things tight and neat in its place, heroes are heroes, sidekicks are sidekicks, but he said the wrong word.

----------


## Godlike13

Brothers can be looked at as father figures too. Bruce and Dick’s relationship is multifaceted and complex. It wears many hats. Big brother/little brother, father/son, teacher/students, hero/rescuee, partners, friends, etc. They are more to each other then just one thing. That’s why it’s such a lovely relationship. Or at least that’s how I see it.

----------


## Mago dos Gatos

Batman Begins is the best of the Nolan trilogy.

----------


## bretmaverick2

Here’s another opinion I doubt you all will agree with:

It’s time to get rid of Joker.  Change the whole status quo.  Kill him or put him in a coma for several years, just keep him ‘off canvas’.  But let it make either Harley or the new version of Joker’s Daughter go for revenge and take over his mantle - costume and all. Let this new female Joker add a very twisted sexual tension to the whole story.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Brothers can be looked at as father figures too. Bruce and Dick’s relationship is multifaceted and complex. It wears many hats. Big brother/little brother, father/son, teacher/students, hero/rescuee, partners, friends, etc. They are more to each other then just one thing. That’s why it’s such a lovely relationship. Or at least that’s how I see it.


Yeah that's why out of all relationship in DC they intrigue me most. It's so complex. 




> Here’s another opinion I doubt you all will agree with:
> 
> It’s time to get rid of Joker.  Change the whole status quo.  Kill him or put him in a coma for several years, just keep him ‘off canvas’.  But let it make either Harley or the new version of Joker’s Daughter go for revenge and take over his mantle - costume and all. Let this new female Joker add a very twisted sexual tension to the whole story.


I'm in for the coma but not for new sexual tension with female Joker because most female villains have sexual tension with Batman. That's not new. Also, Joker's Daughter was originally Dick's generation, and the most recent version is even younger so that's icky. Unless that's the twisted part, but no... with the image of Barbara having sex with Bruce still fresh on memory, I don't want another younger female go near him... even if it's meant to be twisted.

----------


## Gurz

Blow a bottle of champagne in the ass of every side kick... HAHHAH Joker would love it... lol

----------


## Jackalope89

I'm pretty well over the Joker now. And Joker-esque characters (looking at you, Batman Who Laughs). Drop them down a volcano and don't touch them for the next 10 or so years.

----------


## TheRay

I don't think they will add anyone else to the Batfamily. Some of its members are not really overtly involved with them anyway, so adding anyone else does not seem worth the effort.

----------


## Jim Kelly

Has Arleen Sorkin been completely erased from the memory of fandom? I always think of her as one of the primary creators of Harley Quinn--but I never hear her name mentioned in discussions of Harley anymore. Yet surely all the actresses that have taken on the Harley Quinn persona are following her lead.

----------


## Tzigone

> I don't think they will add anyone else to the Batfamily. Some of its members are not really overtly involved with them anyway, so adding anyone else does not seem worth the effort.


I really don't know - depends on sales.  Tim, I felt was introduced because they decided they wanted a Robin again after Jason died. Cass seems to have been created with pure intent to be spun off immediately - made sense, since at the time there Robin and Nigthwing, and Birds of Prey, and I can only assume they were selling well and someone thought yet another Bat-title/Bat-character would bring in the bucks.  If they get in that sort of situation again, where it seems like a license to print money, then yeah, another could be created. But there are more now than there were then, of course, so less need for new.

I'm really not sure why Helena Bertinelli was brought into or associated with the Bat-fam even somewhat except as a hold-over from Helena Wayne.  Anyone ever heard why they went that route?  Like Jean Paul, she didn't seem to stay a constant member. 

I never really felt like Kate qualified as Batfam - as in Batman's fam in early days. Despite the later revelation of actual blood connection to Batman.  She didn't work with them the same way as some others.  To be fair, though, Barbara didn't either, early on (which I liked).  She started working with Robin heavily the 1970s Batman Family, but that didn't last long.  She really did become deeply enmeshed until the 1990s.

Haven't read Luke Fox stories, but it seems like he was also made to be spun off and not one I'd immediately think of as family.

Duke was used some, but none of them have been in main title much lately. And he got a cousin and a new home - I was cool with that, and thought they might be setting him up for a solo series.  But it was not forthcoming and neither has another mini been announced that I know of. But I understand he's appearing in the Outsiders.  Never read the title, as I really don't care for the concept of Batman having his own team - always felt like a putdown to the JL and and kind of a manifestation of the Batman-must-be-in-charge thing he's had since the 80s. May be some great stories, but just not my thing.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm really not sure why Helena Bertinelli was brought into or associated with the Bat-fam even somewhat except as a hold-over from Helena Wayne.  Anyone ever heard why they went that route?  Like Jean Paul, she didn't seem to stay a constant member.


Helena's problem was that she wanted to be in the Batfamily, or at least get Batman's approval, but her own methods and Batman's extremely high standards always kept her at arms length even though she was on relatively good terms with Tim, romanced Dick, and became part of Barbara's team.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I really don't know - depends on sales.  Tim, I felt was introduced because they decided they wanted a Robin again after Jason died. Cass seems to have been created with pure intent to be spun off immediately - made sense, since at the time there Robin and Nigthwing, and Birds of Prey, and I can only assume they were selling well and someone thought yet another Bat-title/Bat-character would bring in the bucks.  If they get in that sort of situation again, where it seems like a license to print money, then yeah, another could be created. But there are more now than there were then, of course, so less need for new.
> 
> I'm really not sure why Helena Bertinelli was brought into or associated with the Bat-fam even somewhat except as a hold-over from Helena Wayne.  Anyone ever heard why they went that route?  Like Jean Paul, she didn't seem to stay a constant member. 
> 
> Since Jason's angry, I wonder where they will ship Dick next year to make Luke the only adult male in the fam to fill the suit.
> 
> I never really felt like Kate qualified as Batfam - as in Batman's fam in early days. Despite the later revelation of actual blood connection to Batman.  She didn't work with them the same way as some others.  To be fair, though, Barbara didn't either, early on (which I liked).  She started working with Robin heavily the 1970s Batman Family, but that didn't last long.  She really did become deeply enmeshed until the 1990s.
> 
> Haven't read Luke Fox stories, but it seems like he was also made to be spun off and not one I'd immediately think of as family.
> ...


Luke Fox was created simply because the original Batwing, who is a member of Batman Inc and the Batman of Congo, didn't sell well. So they made Luke who lives in Gotham and son of Lucius to get Batwing closer to the main Batman setting. His role was to test the most futuristic Fox-Wayne Batsuit tech. That didn't help much. The series was eventually canceled and he's been more of a supporting cast lately.

Since Jason's angry at the moment and Jean Paul's still in space, I wonder where they will ship Dick next year to make Luke the only adult male family member left to fill the main suit.

----------


## Arsenal

> Luke Fox was created simply because the original Batwing, who is a member of Batman Inc and the Batman of Congo, didn't sell well. So they made Luke who lives in Gotham and son of Lucius to get Batwing closer to the main Batman setting. His role was to test the most futuristic Fox-Wayne Batsuit tech. That didn't help much. The series was eventually canceled and he's been more of a supporting cast lately.
> 
> Since Jason's angry at the moment and Jean Paul's still in space, I wonder where they will ship Dick next year to make Luke the only adult male family member left to fill the main suit.


That’s easy: Dick will be busy coming to terms with the traumatic experience known as Ric when it’s time to make Luke the big Bat in Gotham.

----------


## Tzigone

> Helena's problem was that she wanted to be in the Batfamily, or at least get Batman's approval, but her own methods and Batman's extremely high standards always kept her at arms length even though she was on relatively good terms with Tim, romanced Dick, and became part of Barbara's team.


No - I mean from an editorial perspective, why did they go that way and associate her with Batman?  And didn't he first show up in her book, uninvited, to tell her how wrong she was about everything?  I did read it, but it wasn't my favorite, and I liked the issues with him less.  Was she less inclined to want to be included or want his approval back when she had her own title?  I know she started showing up in Bat-titles well before she joined the BoP, as I remember her showing up in issues of Robin earlier and working with them against Talia/Ra's that one time.

Also, controversial -  I'm so sick of everyone trying to win over or impress Batman and think his "extremely high standards" are crap, considering what very low standards he has for his own behavior in other respects. I think he needs to be called onto the carpet more often than he needs to be listened to.

----------


## Frontier

> No - I mean from an editorial perspective, why did they go that way and associate her with Batman?  And didn't he first show up in her book, uninvited, to tell her how wrong she was about everything?  I did read it, but it wasn't my favorite, and I liked the issues with him less.  Was she less inclined to want to be included or want his approval back when she had her own title?  I know she started showing up in Bat-titles well before she joined the BoP, as I remember her showing up in issues of Robin earlier and working with them against Talia/Ra's that one time.


Probably because the Huntress mantle felt associated with Batman, so she ended up in Gotham. 

Just from my own experience, Helena wanting Batman to accept her has been an issue with her character right up until NML. 



> Also, controversial -  I'm so sick of everyone trying to win over or impress Batman and think his "extremely high standards" are crap, considering what very low standards he has for his own behavior in other respects. I think he needs to be called onto the carpet more often than he needs to be listened to.


To be honest, I think he is called onto the carpet more then he is actually listened to. It feels kind of rare for anyone to actually listen when Batman tells them to do something or advises against something.

----------


## Aahz

> Probably because the Huntress mantle felt associated with Batman, so she ended up in Gotham.


And I guess they thought it would improve the sales...

And maybe they wanted a female character, there was no Batgirl or Batwoman at the time only Catwoman, how was iirc more of a villain and not that close to the Batfamily at the time.

----------


## dancj

> Tim, I felt was introduced because they decided they wanted a Robin again after Jason died.


IIRC Tim was introduced because all of the people paying royalties to be allowed to make "Batman and Robin" lunchboxes and the like were unhappy that there was no longer a Robin.

----------


## Gurz

off batwoman. I liked her at the begining and supported her, but later on they gave guns in her hand........ that was sneaky of DC. She didn't have guns at the begining, she was like female gay Batman with batarangs and grapheling guns etc... I liked that but later all of a sudden guns appeared in her hands after her first cancelled run. That pissed me off to no end.... so off her. off jason, off blue bird. I don't want anyone with guns... off all the sidekick brats acutally but i can live with them as long as they don't have guns. If you give them guns, make them villains. Jason was so good when he was villain,  OMG the drama of a robin turned out wrong... A failioure of Batman... But now, he's a hero with guns that batman tolerates.... why don't you give your nra crap a rest DC... that's retarded... off him again...

----------


## TheRay

I don't think Batman's marriage with Catwoman should last that long. Batman being that close to anyone for so long, especially somebody who stands for a lot of things he fights against does not seem like a good fit. Unless they both hang it up, which I don't want them to do.

----------


## Gurz

> I don't think Batman's marriage with Catwoman should last that long. Batman being that close to anyone for so long, especially somebody who stands for a lot of things he fights against does not seem like a good fit. Unless they both hang it up, which I don't want them to do.


They will hang it up, dude. that's like a the end senario.

----------


## Lex Luthor

Bruce, or any well trained male fighter, shouldn't get beat up by his female peers without them having an aide or him having a crutch. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be female street levelers, but there really isn't a good reason why a normal human being should be able to beat someone that is just physically stronger, faster, etc. than them if their skill levels are equal or comparable. I just don't think that Shiva or Black Canary alone should be able to fight Bruce and win. I could see if the female character is just significantly stronger/bigger than the average female hero  but even then that is not likely either. I could see them holding their on in a fight but even then I don't think they should be able to beat him in a straight up fight.

I like Batman and the Batfamily using guns and other similar weapons. I think it should be a rare occasion and not something he carries on him personally but I don't believe he should have an aversion to guns.

----------


## phonogram12

With the exception of the Englehart/Rogers run on Detective, I just don't get Bronze Age Batman. Like, at all.

----------


## Harpsikord

> Bruce, or any well trained male fighter, shouldn't get beat up by his female peers without them having an aide or him having a crutch. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be female street levelers, but there really isn't a good reason why a normal human being should be able to beat someone that is just physically stronger, faster, etc. than them if their skill levels are equal or comparable. I just don't think that Shiva or Black Canary alone should be able to fight Bruce and win. I could see if the female character is just significantly stronger/bigger than the average female hero  but even then that is not likely either. I could see them holding their on in a fight but even then I don't think they should be able to beat him in a straight up fight.
> 
> I like Batman and the Batfamily using guns and other similar weapons. I think it should be a rare occasion and not something he carries on him personally but I don't believe he should have an aversion to guns.




Black Canary and Lady Shiva are the best martial artists in the DC Universe bar none other than maybe Cassandra Cain, who is also a woman. If Batman is able to beat them in a fair hand to hand fight it's them that'd need the crutch, not him.

----------


## Frontier

> Black Canary and Lady Shiva are the best martial artists in the DC Universe bar none other than maybe Cassandra Cain, who is also a woman. If Batman is able to beat them in a fair hand to hand fight it's them that'd need the crutch, not him.


Yeah, I think the only one of them who hasn't handed Bruce his butt in a straight-up fight is Dinah, but she would probably give him a good run for his money.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Black Canary and Lady Shiva are the best martial artists in the DC Universe bar none other than maybe Cassandra Cain, who is also a woman. If Batman is able to beat them in a fair hand to hand fight it's them that'd need the crutch, not him.


If Batman is comparable to them in skill which he has been said to be one of the best in the DCU then yeah him being stronger and faster than them would mean he'd win in a straight up fight. Granted I don't think Batman would fight Cassandra or Black Canary unless he is not himself and vice versa but it just doesn't make a lot of sense that Shiva can beat him unless she is on some godly level or Batman just isnt that good which I don't believe either has ever been true.

----------


## Harpsikord

> If Batman is comparable to them in skill which he has been said to be one of the best in the DCU then yeah him being stronger and faster than them would mean he'd win in a straight up fight. Granted I don't think Batman would fight Cassandra or Black Canary unless he is not himself and vice versa but it just doesn't make a lot of sense that Shiva can beat him unless she is on some godly level or Batman just isnt that good which I don't believe either has ever been true.


Batman is a good hand to hand fighter, but he doesn't hold a candle to Dinah, Cassandra, or even Shiva - and to assume that he's stronger and faster just because he's a man is laughable and sexist. I like the fact that there are a few characters, male or female, in the DC Universe that can beat Batman at hand to hand combat because it makes him that much more fallible and interesting. Batgod is the worst version of the character. It doesn't make him any weaker when other characters are more capable at one thing than he is, and honestly it just makes me sad when people have to prop him up just 'cause. If it were Catwoman or Riddler or even Green Arrow I'd agree, but Canary and Shiva? No. They're his superiors here.

----------


## Frontier

It's not even like he's never beaten Shiva before, he just doesn't need to be a better martial artist to do it.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Batman is a good hand to hand fighter, but he doesn't hold a candle to Dinah, Cassandra, or even Shiva - and to assume that he's stronger and faster just because he's a man is laughable and sexist. I like the fact that there are a few characters, male or female, in the DC Universe that can beat Batman at hand to hand combat because it makes him that much more fallible and interesting. Batgod is the worst version of the character. It doesn't make him any weaker when other characters are more capable at one thing than he is, and honestly it just makes me sad when people have to prop him up just 'cause. If it were Catwoman or Riddler or even Green Arrow I'd agree, but Canary and Shiva? No. They're his superiors here.


Its not sexist to assume a man is faster and stronger than a female hero if she doesn't have powers because men are stronger/faster than women. This is why I said if their skill is equal or comparable. Im not claiming to be an expert on the most skilled fighters in the DC universe but I have never known Batman to be a subpar or average fighter. He is always mentioned as if he is one of the best even if he is overrated. I said Shiva and Canary because those are the class of fighters I have seen him compared too and I have never seen anyone or anything that would suggest Batman isn't one of the best martial artists in the DCU.

----------


## Harpsikord

> It's not even like he's never beaten Shiva before, he just doesn't need to be a better martial artist to do it.


This, exactly. Batman is a planner more than anything; he's the strategist. That's what gives him the edge.

----------


## The tall man

> Batman is a good hand to hand fighter, but he doesn't hold a candle to Dinah, Cassandra, or even Shiva - and to assume that he's stronger and faster just because he's a man is laughable and sexist. I like the fact that there are a few characters, male or female, in the DC Universe that can beat Batman at hand to hand combat because it makes him that much more fallible and interesting. Batgod is the worst version of the character. It doesn't make him any weaker when other characters are more capable at one thing than he is, and honestly it just makes me sad when people have to prop him up just 'cause. If it were Catwoman or Riddler or even Green Arrow I'd agree, but Canary and Shiva? No. They're his superiors here.


Shiva and Cassandra I can buy but not Dinah. I have known Dinah to be a better fighter than Bruce and I don't believe for a minute that she can beat him in fight. Yes she's a great fighter but not better than Bruce.

----------


## Frontier

> Shiva and Cassandra I can buy but not Dinah. I have known Dinah to be a better fighter than Bruce and I don't believe for a minute that she can beat him in fight. Yes she's a great fighter but not better than Bruce.


Didn't Dinah beat Shiva in a fair fight? Or down right close to it without killing her? Bruce can't beat Shiva so that might say something about where Dinah fares.

----------


## Agent Z

> Its not sexist to assume a man is faster and stronger than a female hero if she doesn't have powers because men are stronger/faster than women. This is why I said if their skill is equal or comparable. Im not claiming to be an expert on the most skilled fighters in the DC universe but I have never known Batman to be a subpar or average fighter. He is always mentioned as if he is one of the best even if he is overrated. I said Shiva and Canary because those are the class of fighters I have seen him compared too and I have never seen anyone or anything that would suggest Batman isn't one of the best martial artists in the DCU.


Shiva has displayed feats of speed and strength equaling and even surpassing Bruce and there is nothing in the books suggesting Bruce is stronger and faster than Dinah. Even then, strength and speed are not the only deciding factors in a fight. Floyd Mayweather jr is an example of this when he moved to the the welterweight division. He lost the power he had at the lower weight classes, and on top of having hand issues, was able to continue his undefeated career based off of pure boxing skills, ring intelligence, and masterful defense.

----------


## Lex Luthor

> Shiva has displayed feats of speed and strength equaling and even surpassing Bruce and there is nothing in the books suggesting Bruce is stronger and faster than Dinah. Even then, strength and speed are not the only deciding factors in a fight. Floyd Mayweather jr is an example of this when he moved to the the welterweight division. He lost the power he had at the lower weight classes, and on top of having hand issues, was able to continue his undefeated career based off of pure boxing skills, ring intelligence, and masterful defense.


I'm just bowing out of this conversation because its clear everyone is determined to completely misconstrue or understand what I am saying.

----------


## Godlike13

I could beat Shiva with my car. Martial arts isn’t a superpower. She is one of the most overrated characters. 

To Lex’s point though, with technical skills being comparable, physical prowess being a factor isn’t that absurd of an opinion. That being said this is a world of fiction.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm just bowing out of this conversation because its clear everyone is determined to completely misconstrue or understand what I am saying.


You're talking about muscle mass that means someone with huge muscles like Bruce should be able to hit harder and take hits better than someone slender with less muscle mass, such as the female martial artists you mention, but martial arts isn't about just hitting or tanking. 

Various martial arts are designed so you can take down opponents that are bigger and denser than you, like judo throw taking advantage of the opponent's weight, kung fu moves that aim to strike at the enemy's weak points like the neck, or jiu-jitsu that redirect an opponent's strike back to themselves.

----------


## Pohzee

IRL, there's a reason there's weight classes. Size and strength absolutely makes a difference. 

But in a drawn medium where cartoon people are flying and 13 year old boys are talking on multiple 200lb+ henchmen, its kind of telling if that's where you can't suspend your disbelief.

----------


## Agent Z

> I could beat Shiva with my car. Martial arts isn’t a superpower. She is one of the most overrated characters.


I mean, by that logic so is Batman.

----------


## Frontier

> I could beat Shiva with my car. Martial arts isnt a superpower. She is one of the most overrated characters.


To be honest, she could probably kick your car in half  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## phonogram12

If DC's '70s kung-fu comics is any indication, the only people who should be able to beat Shiva, Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger in hand-to-hand combat is Shiva, Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger. As late as the '90s Batman's been beaten by brand new characters like the Silver Monkey. So while he's obviously no slouch, Bruce should maybe be #5 (if that).

----------


## Aahz

> Didn't Dinah beat Shiva in a fair fight? Or down right close to it without killing her? Bruce can't beat Shiva so that might say something about where Dinah fares.


Bruce has actually beaten Shiva two times as far as I'm aware.
But I can't remember Dinah beating Shiva.
Dinah has in general not that many impressive feats as martial artist (at least not against established characters), especially not post flashpoint.

----------


## Aahz

> But in a drawn medium where cartoon people are flying and 13 year old boys are talking on multiple 200lb+ henchmen, its kind of telling if that's where you can't suspend your disbelief.


But even there are limits, the fight between Damian and Ubu in the "Son of Batman" movie, just looks completely ridiculous.

And pre flashpoint Tim had his Bo-staff to fight against grown up men.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But even there are limits, the fight between Damian and Ubu in the "Son of Batman" movie, just looks completely ridiculous.
> 
> And pre flashpoint Tim had his Bo-staff to fight against grown up men.


Oh, when Son of Batman setup Deathstroke as a resentful heir candidate to Al Ghul I just tuned out.

----------


## phantom1592

> Dinah has in general not that many impressive feats as martial artist (at least not against established characters), especially not post flashpoint.


Yeah... when did Dinah get such a reputation? She used to be considered excellent martial artist trained in Judo... but I don't know when she got the credit of being one of the 'best in the entire world.'

Heck, she usually has powers to back her up. Even with the retconned 'trained from childhood by her mother and occassionaly Ted Grant... that's still just Boxing and Judo with a little dirty streetfighting. Not world class Ninja/Assassin level.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah... when did Dinah get such a reputation? She used to be considered excellent martial artist trained in Judo... but I don't know when she got the credit of being one of the 'best in the entire world.'
> 
> Heck, she usually has powers to back her up. Even with the retconned 'trained from childhood by her mother and occassionaly Ted Grant... that's still just Boxing and Judo with a little dirty streetfighting. Not world class Ninja/Assassin level.


She trained Young Justice in the cartoon and Barbara in New 52, so out of the Birds she's considered the best. I don't know in comparison to Batman and Shiva though. 

Pre-Flashpoint, I think Shiva considered her a worthy opponent, and one of the candidates to replace her as Shiva... I think... I only skimmed. The other people she considered to replace her are Cass Cain and Connor Hawke. 

That's all I know

----------


## Jackalope89

Yeah, same. Always got that Dinah was very good, but not top level (Shiva, Cass, etc) good.

How would people rank Jason Todd though? I understand his beating Shiva is controversial, but otherwise?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah, same. Always got that Dinah was very good, but not top level (Shiva, Cass, etc) good.
> 
> How would people rank Jason Todd though? I understand his beating Shiva is controversial, but otherwise?


I don't remember clearly but when he beat Ra's and Shiva he's using special method specifically to take down a powered up Ra's and a moved taught by Shiva. The controversial part for me is the way it's drawn and that Shiva in character won't teach something like that. 

Taking everything I read into account, I see Jason as someone who doesn't view himself highly but actually really good. He doesn't think he can take on Batman without cheating, he's not as acrobatic as Dick and he looks up to Dick and Babs, but during his evil phase, he's a threat to Batman and Nightwing and he can handle Tim and Damian, but once he mellowed out he never goes all out on any of them like he used to do. 

I think he should be about the average skill of the adult member of the fam. Bruce, Dick, Kate, and Babs. This tier tends to fluctuate in general. A lot of times Bruce is better than anyone, sometimes Dick is better than Bruce, sometimes Babs is better than Dick, depending on how they're written so it's more like a circle than a tier.

----------


## phantom1592

> *She trained Young Justice in the cartoon and Barbara in New 52, so out of the Birds she's considered the best. I don't know in comparison to Batman and Shiva though.* 
> 
> Pre-Flashpoint, I think Shiva considered her a worthy opponent, and one of the candidates to replace her as Shiva... I think... I only skimmed. The other people she considered to replace her are Cass Cain and Connor Hawke. 
> 
> That's all I know


And that's the key I think. She can be very good. She can certainly have something to teach the kids... but I just don't think she should be put into the same category as people who have studied from a variety of masters and learned multiple styles to become the best of the best in the entire world. That's not who Dinah was. Heck a lot of the time when I was reading her, Ollie seemed a better fighter. Her main claim to fame was "I don't need rescuing... I can handle these punks myself!" 

To put her into the top tier category... I don't know. It sounds Mary-sue to me. She's the star of the book so she's going to win all the time... but c'mon...

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah... when did Dinah get such a reputation? She used to be considered excellent martial artist trained in Judo... but I don't know when she got the credit of being one of the 'best in the entire world.'
> 
> Heck, she usually has powers to back her up. Even with the retconned 'trained from childhood by her mother and occassionaly Ted Grant... that's still just Boxing and Judo with a little dirty streetfighting. Not world class Ninja/Assassin level.


Boxing and Judo are not the only fighting styles she uses. She has been trained in a number of martial arts and Rabbit of the Twelve Brothers of Silk was one of her instructors. Dinah also tends to avoid using her powers against non-metas because of the damage they can cause and usually busts them out for more dangerous enemies. Remember that for a long time, she didn't even have her powers so she was relying her fighting skills and some equipment. 

Another thing about ninjas and assassins is they are not primarily fighters. Their job relies mostly on stealth and killing and you don't need to be a good fighter to do that. Hell, if you're really good at being an assassin you don't even need to in the same room as your target.

----------


## Agent Z

> And that's the key I think. She can be very good. She can certainly have something to teach the kids... but I just don't think she should be put into the same category as people who have studied from a variety of masters and learned multiple styles to become the best of the best in the entire world. That's not who Dinah was.* Heck a lot of the time when I was reading her, Ollie seemed a better fighter.* Her main claim to fame was "I don't need rescuing... I can handle these punks myself!" 
> 
> To put her into the top tier category... I don't know. It sounds Mary-sue to me. She's the star of the book so she's going to win all the time... but c'mon...


That only happens in the Green Arrow comics and the Arrow show, specifically Winnick and Kreisberg which are considered to be poor showing of Oliver. 

I mean, even if you want to question Dinah's level of martial arts skill, Oliver being better than her in that regard is questionable given he's known primarily as an archer

----------


## nhienphan2808

> With the exception of the Englehart/Rogers run on Detective, I just don't get Bronze Age Batman. Like, at all.


How so? Can you elaborate?

----------


## TheRay

> They will hang it up, dude. that's like a the end senario.


I heard its already over and it didnt end with them hanging it up.

----------


## Superbat

Batman's true love is Superman, and DC should have them hook up already.

----------


## Cmbmool

No one cares about Stephanie Brown and her place in the Batman Family.

----------


## Tzigone

> No one cares about Stephanie Brown and her place in the Batman Family.


That's just incorrect. I care. Now, you not caring is fine, but it's almost objectively wrong that no on does (well, judging by actions as we cannot know the hearts of others).  Not really an opinion, as such, to me.  FTR, I like her as Spoiler, not Batgirl, and feel Batgirl was a demotion for her (talk about controversial) and liked her pre-death personality better.

----------


## TheRay

Im honestly surprised the same idea that created Manbat hasnt been used with other characters.
Like Nightwing having a rogue named Wing Knight.

----------


## Zorintien

Bruce Wayne belongs with Barbara Gordon, not Selina Kyle.

----------


## Osiris-Rex

> Bruce Wayne belongs with Barbara Gordon, not Selina Kyle.


She's too young.  It almost seems incestuous because it would be like getting it on with his daughter or niece.  She seems more like a mate of Robin.

----------


## phantom1592

> She's too young.  It almost seems incestuous because it would be like getting it on with his daughter or niece.  She seems more like a mate of Robin.


Depends on the continuity. Silver/bronze age she was a congresswoman in her mid 20's at least with Bruce in his mid 30's.  I seem to remember some serious innuendo's and flirting in the 66' series too between them. Robin had more experience, but he was always younger. 

However she was always his friends daughter... so yeah, not acceptable.  :Wink:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Depends on the continuity. Silver/bronze age she was a congresswoman in her mid 20's at least with Bruce in his mid 30's.  I seem to remember some serious innuendo's and flirting in the 66' series too between them. Robin had more experience, but he was always younger. 
> 
> However she was always his friends daughter... so yeah, not acceptable.


I think Bruce was even younger than that pre-COIE. 29 at the youngest, if not early 30s. So the age gap wasn't really an issue then.

But when a piece of media pulled the trigger (DCAU), they did it after establishing that Barbara was either Dick's age or a year or two younger than him. And had a more serious dating history with him, so Bruce was banging his adopted son's ex. it was super gross.

----------


## gordonm

Mother Panic should be Batman's next sidekick.

----------


## lemonpeace

Duke Thomas should interact more with Poison Ivy. sunlight and plants? it's a perfect combination thematically.

----------


## Caivu

> Mother Panic should be Batman's next sidekick.


Why and how?

----------


## jetengine

Doesn't Mother Panic....

A. Hate Batman because he's an asshole to her.
B. Take place in a different universe? Like identical in all but a few ways but still different.

----------


## Aahz

> I think Bruce was even younger than that pre-COIE. 29 at the youngest, if not early 30s. So the age gap wasn't really an issue then.


I think he was implied to be in his early 30s by the time Barbara became a congress woman.

----------


## nhienphan2808

He actually was 28 in the Bronze Age. He celebrated his 28th in an Batman Family issue, and said "it's been 20 years since i was 8 and my parents died". When 18 year old Dick left for college he called Bruce "brother". It's weird and one of the reason i dont get Bronze Age Batman.

----------


## Harpsikord

> No one cares about Stephanie Brown and her place in the Batman Family.


What a bold thing to say in a thread created by one of Stephanie's biggest fans on this forum hahaha.

But this is the most relevant post here in a while.

----------


## Caivu

> Doesn't Mother Panic....
> 
> A. Hate Batman because he's an asshole to her.
> B. Take place in a different universe? Like identical in all but a few ways but still different.


He was actually pretty nice to her the one time they met. She just doesn't like any of the bats at all.
Originally, the series was on the main Earth, but Violet got transported to a different universe during Milk Wars.

----------


## Godlike13

Mother Panic's autonomy makes her more interesting, same use to go for Batwoman. Batman has more the enough sidekicks.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Batman and Catwoman are boring. Give me Wonder Woman and Batman.

----------


## Denirac

a One Night Stand between Jason Todd and Harley Quinn would be an interesting angle for a Story about the Trauma caused by Joker and I'm surprised it hasnt happened yet

----------


## TheRay

We have a lot of instances where Nightwing and Robin interact, so I'd like to see Robin and Red Hood together more.

----------


## gordonm

> Why and how?


While the other Robins (and most of the Bat-family) have been 'shaped' by Batman (trained by him, inspired by him etc) MP built herself outside of Gotham and the Bat's shadow. However, like Bruce she comes from money and suffered horrendous trauma as a child that led to her becoming a costumed fighter. This gives her a nice parallel to Batman but at the same time she's a self-made (and self-destructive) hero with no allegiance, debt, hero worship etc to Bruce. I think there's a lot to work there if they bring MP back into the main universe and pair her up with Batman.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> While the other Robins (and most of the Bat-family) have been 'shaped' by Batman (trained by him, inspired by him etc) MP built herself outside of Gotham and the Bat's shadow. *However, like Bruce she comes from money and suffered horrendous trauma as a child that led to her becoming a costumed fighter. This gives her a nice parallel to Batman but at the same time she's a self-made (and self-destructive) hero with no allegiance, debt, hero worship etc to Bruce*. I think there's a lot to work there if they bring MP back into the main universe and pair her up with Batman.


Huntress says hello. I do like MP but those exact themes have been explored in the Batverse before.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Batman and Catwoman are boring. Give me Wonder Woman and Batman.


Wonder Woman's way better off without Batman.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Batman and Catwoman are boring. Give me Wonder Woman and Batman.


The real Batman's soulmate.  :Wink: 

batman-superman-selfie-variant.jpg

----------


## Jackalope89

> The real Batman's soulmate. 
> 
> batman-superman-selfie-variant.jpg


Well, both are terrible fathers the last couple of years, so I can't say you're completely wrong.

----------


## lemonpeace

Alfred should've died (I think he might have before actually) years ago, and he should stay dead; whether the death was handled well or not. beyond being Bruce's dad (and Bruce's found family has expanded significantly) he hasn't really served a purpose that anyone else couldn't fill in a long time. DEATHS. NEED. TO. HAVE. CONSEQUENCES. There are 5 million and fifteen different afterlifes they could explore, you don't need to resurrect every character that dies if you wanna keep using them.

----------


## Frontier

> Alfred should've died (I think he might have before actually) years ago, and he should stay dead; whether the death was handled well or not. beyond being Bruce's dad (and Bruce's found family has expanded significantly) he hasn't really served a purpose that anyone else couldn't fill in a long time. DEATHS. NEED. TO. HAVE. CONSEQUENCES. There are 5 million and fifteen different afterlifes they could explore, you don't need to resurrect every character that dies if you wanna keep using them.


I've always felt that if a death was dumb or not handled well it invalidates the need for it to stick. Of course, your mileage may vary on that. 

I mean...Alfred fulfilled a lot of roles in the Batfamily, so it's hard for me to imagine anyone else just coming in and fulfilling it exactly without some modification to existing characterization. He was basically everyone's dad in terms of the family dynamic, or even the cool and wise uncle, at least when the family was actually close and felt like an actual family. 

I think comics are way past the point where deaths can really have serious consequences. At this point it's only believable if it happens in a media adaption or Elseworlds.

----------


## Tzigone

> I mean...Alfred fulfilled a lot of roles in the Batfamily, so it's hard for me to imagine anyone else just coming in and fulfilling it exactly without some modification to existing characterization. He was basically everyone's dad in terms of the family dynamic, or even the cool and wise uncle, at least when the family was actually close and felt like an actual family.


I agree no one else could fill the dad role for Bruce. I'd be more into seeing Bruce without anyone there for role.  Of course, lost time that happened, we ended up with early 2000s Bruce, and I'd really like to avoid that.  I can't say the entire family has ever been close since COIE.  I mean, first Dick and Bruce were estranged.  And Dick and Jason knew each other then, but weren't close.  Then even when they weren't, Dick and Tim were close, but Dick and Bruce weren't (and there was a time when Tim did not talk about personal stuff with Bruce). Cass and Tim weren't close at first and I don't think Cass and Dick ever were.  Then when Jason came back, obviously he wasn't close to anyone for a while.  Damian and Tim usually haven't been.  And only Damian and Cass have spent time with Duke, I think?  Haven't read as much since New52.  




> I think comics are way past the point where deaths can really have serious consequences. At this point it's only believable if it happens in a media adaption or Elseworlds.


Agreed.

I don't want Alfred to be dead, I just don't like way the role (and so many others) have shifted over time.  And I don't like the deification of Alfred (though him dead may make that worse) that seems to come in at times. The idea that if he says it, it's true and correct. I have other issues, too, though, discussed elsewhere and mostly tying into Bruce's mental health, which, let's face it, isn't likely to improve long-term no matter who is dead or alive.

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

More a minority position than an unpopular opinion, but: I have one hell of a time accepting resurrections if the death was carefully worked out and the resurrection occurs without due explanation.

Alfred's death may have been sophomoric symbolism, but it was enough a part of King's master plan (such as it was) that fishing him back from oblivion would be all but a frank admission by DC that King was wrong--that letting King carry on was wrong--at a fundamental level. On the other hand, King's Batman feels so little like "real" Batman that if everything King did were retconned in one blow it would strike me less as a violation of continuity than simplying bringing Alfred back would. At this time they appear inclined to do neither.

----------


## Tzigone

> Alfred's death may have been sophomoric symbolism, but it was enough a part of King's master plan (such as it was) that fishing him back from oblivion would be all but a frank admission by DC that King was wrong--that letting King carry on was wrong--at a fundamental level. On the other hand, King's Batman feels so little like "real" Batman that if everything King did were retconned in one blow it would strike me less as a violation of continuity than simplying bringing Alfred back would. At this time they appear inclined to do neither.


You're probably right.  I was expecting at least some sort of reboot, but who even knows what's going to happen there anymore (even with 5G coming).  And Doomsday Clock has seemingly been close to dead in the water for a while, so Alfred's presence there (not reading myself, but heard he was there) is likely meaningless.

----------


## Frontier

I'll be honest, I don't really care for Harley and Ivy as this "grand" DC romance on par with Lois and Clark that makes them better people or more heroic. I don't mind the relationship as a whole, but just the level of importance they keep placing on it. I guess it's good they have a prominent LGBT couple, but I just don't feel it. 

And I'm tired of Ivy coming off like Harley's plus one.

----------


## Jim Kelly

"Bonnie and Clyde were pretty lookin' people
But I can tell you people they were the devil's children"

That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.

----------


## Tzigone

> That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.


I very much agree.  These are killers.  Usually quite unremorseful ones.  And they made pretty good villains. I'd like them to stay good villains.

Also, I admit, I'm so fed up with "gray" - no. A character does enough bad things, and they aren't gray, they're just evil.  And I like my heroes _good_ and admirable. Not perfect, but good.  I like good guys and bad guys and heroes triumphing over evil.  But publishers love to muddy the waters by having heroes do terrible things. Sometimes just for shock value, and sometimes properly followed up on. Often without regard to whether it's in character. But I guess there isn't a real "in character" anymore for a lot of them, given how long they've been around and how varied their portrayals.

But for my way, there'd be good guys and bad guys and very, very small number of gray characters.

----------


## Jackalope89

> "Bonnie and Clyde were pretty lookin' people
> But I can tell you people they were the devil's children"
> 
> That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.


Well, Condiment King has endangered peoples' clothes with ketchup and mustard stains, but no one wants to give him a redemption arc.

----------


## TheRay

The Joker should sick Solomon Grundy on Batman way more often.

----------


## phantom1592

> "Bonnie and Clyde were pretty lookin' people
> But I can tell you people they were the devil's children"
> 
> That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.


Agreed !00% 

I'm not a fan of Ivy in the first place... Her entire purpose is to be a murderous seductress. In this day and age, I don't see how you can have 'Drugs and seduces victims then kills them' in the first place...  but then to hand wave it away with redemption arcs is just tone-deaf. She really needs to either die, or get locked away in Arkham and ignored for a good long time... but trying to make people root for her misses so many points... 

Harley's no better. She basically boils down to 'Well... I haven't murdered anyone TODAY... so what's the problem??'  At least with Catwoman they went decades with her being 'just a thief' and 'nobody really got hurt'.... but Ivy's left a trail of bodies and there have been races to beat her infections before they killed Bruce Wayne, Lucius Fox and even Black Canary... Not to mention tons of other random people. She's... NOT a good person. She's not even neutral. She's out to kill some folks.

----------


## WonderNight

Unpopular opinion. Dick needs a long break away from the batfamily.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick needs to die. Give the character some regroup time and a hard reset point after Ric, cause after 2 year of what they been doing they are going to have a hard time convincing general readers to check out the character. Creative standing with the character is in the toilet, and fan sentiment is beyond negative.

----------


## Tzigone

> Unpopular opinion. Dick needs a long break away from the batfamily.


Dick used to be my favorite character. Old-school Dick still is.  I especially like him in both the first half of the 80s (away from Batfam) and second half of the '90s (with Batfam), though those versions are different in characterization.  I ship him and Barbara (Dixon-era). While there were certainly problems as early as the post-COIE story of him becoming Nightwing (it really regressed him back to proving himself issues to Bruce, which he'd passed, and that's something we've never really gotten away from long-term since), I think Grayson's run is when he went downhill quick.  I've heard it said she had a huge influence on shaping the character, and I agree, but I think it was a huge _bad_ influence and that he's much diminished from what he once was.   But it's certainly not all on her.  My problem is that for a long while he's been placed in deliberately subordinate role to Batman. As though being part of the family means he must remain lesser. It's not actually _being_ around Batman that causes the problem, in the sense that he could be around the gang and be written well. But I don't think that will happen.  As long as he's with the Bats, I think there will be slap-downs to show he's just not in Bruce's league (ugh), he'll come running when Bruce wants him and follow the unreasonable orders, he'll revert to acting like a child who needs his dad periodically instead of a grown man, and we'll get that extremely frustrating compartmentalization of Robins I've complained about before where each can have only one overwhelming trait leaving Dick either an immature manchild airhead or the immature lothario airhead.




> Dick needs to die. Give him some regroup time and the a hard reset point after Ric, cause after 2 year of what they been doing they are going to have a hard time convincing general readers to check out the character. Creative reputation with the character is in the toilet, and fan sentiment very negative.


I don't want to advocate death and resurrection - it's so old and tired and boring. And Didio might jump at the chance to keep him dead. How's the Titans tv show doing?  I'm not watching it, but if it's doing well, there might be some worth in trying to capitalize on it. Not that I want to try to recreate the NTT yet again.  I liked in the pre-COIE-era, but they do love repeating storylines with them over and over and over and there's such a thing as moving on.

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

I like Ivy when she's written well and can sometimes, with an effort, like Harley for a moment. But her fans make it hard. One of my main grievances against Harley is that she has *always* gotten away with murder, on and off the page. Now, all in all, I prefer the rogues to the heroes. I don't mind having some gray characters, or characters who pass through gray phases. I don't mind the writers playing with rehabilitation in a story line. I don't mind sympathetic villains with complicated motivations. But I cannot stand it when writers or fans give horrendous characters a free pass.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't want to advocate death and resurrection - it's so old and tired and boring. And Didio might jump at the chance to keep him dead. How's the Titans tv show doing?  I'm not watching it, but if it's doing well, there might be some worth in trying to capitalize on it. Not that I want to try to recreate the NTT yet again.  I liked in the pre-COIE-era, but they do love repeating storylines with them over and over and over and there's such a thing as moving on.


Well they burned the whole give him amnesia and have him retire route, and they clearly have no interest on capitalizing on the show. I personally think its existence offends some of the old dudes running the comic department. Either way my point is they have done so poorly, and obnoxiously ignored reception on what they have been doing, that if they think they can just put him back to the old norms and readers are just gonna care again they will be fooling themselves. It might even hurt the character further. Dick's comic situation is bad to the point that a regroup period might be in the characters best interest.

----------


## Blue22

Unpopular Opinion: I think Harley's original costume sucks. Tacky as some of them may be, I'm actually pretty fond of a lot of her new looks.




> a One Night Stand between Jason Todd and Harley Quinn would be an interesting angle for a Story about the Trauma caused by Joker and I'm surprised it hasnt happened yet


You know...I wouldn't object to them having some sort of relationship. Not a full blown romance or anything. Hell, even sleeping together once seems a bit overkill...

But I could see those two working together or having some sort of reluctant bonding moment from time to time.

----------


## gregpersons

DC's overall vision is embarrassing and juvenile, especially for Batman. They've been carried by the strength of adaptations and legacy. The DCU app's original content is horrible - Titans and Harley Quinn. The animated films are cringey. They're creatively driving the IPs into obscure niche territory, while Marvel continues to make DC a niche afterthought aside from Batman movies/games.

----------


## Tzigone

> a One Night Stand between Jason Todd and Harley Quinn would be an interesting angle for a Story about the Trauma caused by Joker and I'm surprised it hasnt happened yet


Profoundly creepy and indicative of overall poor mental health is how I would perceive that. 

Doesn't help that they've toyed with several hero hookups with Harley in various realities. Including implied with Dick I've heard (haven't read), which I loathe the idea of.

----------


## Agent Z

> DC's overall vision is embarrassing and juvenile, especially for Batman. They've been carried by the strength of adaptations and legacy. The DCU app's original content is horrible - Titans and Harley Quinn. The animated films are cringey. They're creatively driving the IPs into obscure niche territory, while Marvel continues to make DC a niche afterthought aside from Batman movies/games.


Titans, Harley Quinn, Young Justice and Doom Patrol have been well received. Aquaman pulled in a billion. Wonder Woman became the first female led superhero movie to be a success. DC has both good and bad comics same as Marvel.

----------


## hova4life

> I'll be honest, I don't really care for Harley and Ivy as this "grand" DC romance on par with Lois and Clark that makes them better people or more heroic. I don't mind the relationship as a whole, but just the level of importance they keep placing on it. I guess it's good they have a prominent LGBT couple, but I just don't feel it. 
> 
> And I'm tired of Ivy coming off like Harley's plus one.


agreed 100% I'm tired of Harley period lol

----------


## Agent Z

> I'll be honest, I don't really care for Harley and Ivy as this "grand" DC romance on par with Lois and Clark that makes them better people or more heroic. I don't mind the relationship as a whole, but just the level of importance they keep placing on it. I guess it's good they have a prominent LGBT couple, but I just don't feel it. 
> 
> And I'm tired of Ivy coming off like Harley's plus one.


When has DC claimed they were on par with Lois and Clark?

----------


## TheRay

Freight Train should join the Batfamily so that he can get more exposure.

----------


## Agent Z

I've got my issues with Harley but I think the best thing you can do for yourself if you don't like her is just ignore her.

----------


## Harpsikord

As much as I find the idea of a selectively mute character interesting, no matter what I do, I just cannot invest myself in Cassandra Cain.

----------


## Tzigone

> I've got my issues with Harley but I think the best thing you can do for yourself if you don't like her is just ignore her.


True of all characters, but hard to do when they are popular characters that pop up everywhere. And maybe take over other franchises (::cough:: BOP).




> As much as I find the idea of a selectively mute character interesting, no matter what I do, I just cannot invest myself in Cassandra Cain.


I can't get that interested, either. Which is sad, because I'd like to.  I even bristle at the unfairness of her being demoted from daughter (and left out of fic as Bruce's kid long before that).  But I'm just not that into her. I even read some issues of her solo series (started with Brenda Miller's introduction specifically because I read she was a friend of Cass and I wanted to see Cass interact with a friend).  I don't dislike her, but neither does she grab me. I've liked her best when she hanging out with Steph (who, admittedly, I do very much like in pre-death days), as long as she wasn't just knocking her out because she rated her so lowly in skill (so much hatred for so many characters treating Steph like a hopeless loser who couldn't accomplish anything, and then of course, made even worse by that mindset being proven correct with the ghastly War Games).

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

> I've got my issues with Harley but I think the best thing you can do for yourself if you don't like her is just ignore her.


Hard to do when she's everywhere. Her presence on a cover does reduce the likelihood that I will buy the book. I hold high hopes for Sejic's "Harleen," but that's because it looks unlike any other version of Harley.

Locally uncontroversial opinion: DC invests far too much energy into far too few characters while allowing others to languish on the margins or vanish altogether.

----------


## Robanker

Poison Ivy hasn't been a compelling character since she became Harley's girlfriend. I'm fine with them dating, both are bisexual and it's cool to have a same-sex couple last a long time in comics, but since DC needs Harley to be likable, they defanged Ivy and left her as Harley's boring hot redhead girl who is part ficus. 

She used to bring Gotham City to it's knees. She was compelling. Net loss.

----------


## Aahz

> I can't get that interested, either. Which is sad, because I'd like to.  I even bristle at the unfairness of her being demoted from daughter (and left out of fic as Bruce's kid long before that).


Honestly she never really was. She wasn't really a part of Bruce life out of costume, she was imo more Barbaras kid then Bruce's and as soon as Bruce adopted her he "died" and once he came back she had moved to Hong Kong.

----------


## Tzigone

> Honestly she never really was. She wasn't really a part of Bruce life out of costume, she was imo more Barbaras kid then Bruce's and as soon as Bruce adopted her he "died" and once he came back she had moved to Hong Kong.


I don't know. I know she was part of Barbara's life, but he _did_ adopt her.  And from right after her introduction (way before adoption), she seemed rather worshipful of Batman and eager to be around him and learn from him (which I did feel was kind on an insult to Barbara, since the same level of "respect" was not extended to her).  The two each exerting control and fighting over what Cass' life would be definitely played a part from time to time.

----------


## lucius121

Pretty sure hating on Harley isn’t controversial on this board.

----------


## hova4life

> As much as I find the idea of a selectively mute character interesting, no matter what I do, I just cannot invest myself in Cassandra Cain.


I feel the same. I've tried to read issues where she's in and i'm just not interested in her or her backstory. I'd be okay if she never appeared again tbh.

----------


## kaimaciel

I hate it whenever writers claim Damian is Bruce's only son or his true son, I think it's a disservice to Dick, Jason and Tim. 

Also, though I don't dislike her, I can't connect with Cassandra Cain. I've always found her rather boring.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Cassandra's problem is she is the typical 90s ' cool and quite Asian martial artist" trope. She was good for all she is, but she's a product of that era rather than a true long-lasting Batman hero. 

While im at this i have the same thoughts about Talia and Ras as well. They were created for their time in the 70s.

----------


## Bat-Meal

I have never found Alfred compelling or interesting.  Doesn't matter when his backstory changes, he gets his own TV series, he dies in main continuity - I still don't care.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Agent Z

> *Cassandra's problem is she is the typical 90s ' cool and quite Asian martial artist" trope.* She was good for all she is, but she's a product of that era rather than a true long-lasting Batman hero. 
> 
> While im at this i have the same thoughts about Talia and Ras as well. They were created for their time in the 70s.


That's what she seems on the surface but she is a lot more complex than that. For one thing, her being quiet is a result of being selectively mute not simply trying to make her look cool.

----------


## Restingvoice

Also, the mute martial artist was also done in the 80s by Snake Eyes, and he's still the most popular GIJoe today, and when that movie that not a lot of people like came out. So I think that's a pretty timeless trend. 

Anyway, anyone can have that character they just can't get into despite there's nothing wrong with them. Mine, for example, is Batwoman. Already talked about it in her thread, and I think it's just her personality, coz I like everything else. The costume, the setup, the supporting cast, some of the villains.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> That's what she seems on the surface but she is a lot more complex than that. For one thing, her being quiet is a result of being selectively mute not simply trying to make her look cool.


There's always childhood trauma with this trope, as they are brutally trained or abused, made them quite and introverted. That's nothing new. 

The point is, I don't think this is a bad trope or just for the 90s. Its blown up in the 90s due to Chinese and Japanese medias popularity. Its whether it fits in with the batlore and mythos and whether one cares for a "perfect fighter" . It's a problem of "this trope is cool so I'll use it for a batman character and make her better than him in skills". I am not into it.

It's the same thing with ras and talia. They are good characters, but only as his rouge to me. Because they only works best in certain themes and eras. That's why making talia as Bruce's main love interest didn't work.

----------


## Agent Z

> There's always childhood trauma with this trope, as they are brutally trained or abused, made them quite and introverted. That's nothing new. 
> 
> The point is, I don't think this is a bad trope or just for the 90s. Its blown up in the 90s due to Chinese and Japanese medias popularity. Its whether it fits in with the batlore and mythos and whether one cares for a "perfect fighter" . It's a problem of "this trope is cool so I'll use it for a batman character and make her better than him in skills". I am not into it.


What examples of this trope have childhood trauma? Cass is the only example I've seen of this. And how many of these examples actually treat it as abuse?

Every Bat character is a long standing trope if you boil them down to what they seem on the surface. There isn't anything about Cass that is out of place in the Bat mythos (where ninjas and martial artists are very common) and frankly, given how often Batman is portrayed as being better than other people in some area or another, I don't see why Cass being a better fighter than him should be an issue.

----------


## Zaresh

> There's always childhood trauma with this trope, as they are brutally trained or abused, made them quite and introverted. That's nothing new. 
> 
> The point is, I don't think this is a bad trope or just for the 90s. Its blown up in the 90s due to Chinese and Japanese medias popularity. Its whether it fits in with the batlore and mythos and whether one cares for a "perfect fighter" . It's a problem of "this trope is cool so I'll use it for a batman character and make her better than him in skills". I am not into it.
> 
> It's the same thing with ras and talia. They are good characters, but only as his rouge to me. Because they only works best in certain themes and eras. That's why making talia as Bruce's main love interest didn't work.


Eh, I think it kind of fits her trope. Think of Flash Gordon's Mings. Or the classic evil scientist's daughter trope. They're Fu Manchu-esque characters, kind of timeless (even if sort of old fashioned with those backgrounds now), but they're not really layered unless some writer gives them something more to go for them, I think.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Eh, I think it kind of fits her trope. Think of Flash Gordon's Mings. Or the classic evil scientist's daughter trope. They're Fu Manchu-esque characters, kind of timeless (even if sort of old fashioned with those backgrounds now), but they're not really layered unless some writer gives them something more to go for them, I think.


I meant i have no problem with the trope itself, but whether it fits in with the Batman mythos. 
This also relates to one more of my controversal opinion : i dont get into the bat books under Dennis Oneil in both the 70s and 90s and all the mythical magic demon and ninja tropes he tried to incorporate in the bat mythos. I get it was to help the "fear" narrative and the "shadow" part of Batman and they are nice for all they are, but to me that was never the ONE thing Batman is about. Make it the ONE thing damaged his character now in 2020.

Characters like Ras, Talia and Cass would work better now in a different imprint.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I kind of wish writers would have the characters like Nightwing or the other robins not be like Bruce when it comes to relationships.  I do get it but most of their love interested are heroes to so I do wish the writers do try to stop and have them have committed issues. It becomes a too over use trope

----------


## Ulysses

My controversial Batfamily opinion is that the Batfamily is more bad than good. To me the Batfamily is Alfred.

----------


## Katana500

> . 
> Anyway, anyone can have that character they just can't get into despite there's nothing wrong with them. Mine, for example, is Batwoman. Already talked about it in her thread, and I think it's just her personality, coz I like everything else. The costume, the setup, the supporting cast, some of the villains.


For me its Tim Drake. I'm not quite sure why. I just cannot for the life of me find his character interesting like the rest of the Batfamily.

If he slipped on a banana skin and broke his neck in an issue tomorrow I doubt Id even care. But the rest of the family I defo would.

I have no idea what puts me off him. I like characters like Luke, Duke and Barbara who are relatively similiar personality/role wise. so idk.

----------


## Tzigone

> My controversial Batfamily opinion is that the Batfamily is more bad than good. To me the Batfamily is Alfred.


I'd love elaboration on this. On why. Sounds very interesting.

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

> For me its Tim Drake. I'm not quite sure why. I just cannot for the life of me find his character interesting like the rest of the Batfamily.
> 
> If he slipped on a banana skin and broke his neck in an issue tomorrow I doubt Id even care. But the rest of the family I defo would.
> 
> I have no idea what puts me off him. I like characters like Luke, Duke and Barbara who are relatively similiar personality/role wise. so idk.


Aw, poor Tim.

I don't care a fig about most of the extended Batfamily, but I do like Tim, and the Robins generally. I think his problem is that he's _such_ a middle son; Dick, Jason, and Damian stand out more boldly. The writers don't help when they're dismissive of him.

My opinion is that Tim would be ideal as a non-costumed tech guru. So, you know, maybe let's have him slip on that banana peel and break his back, not his neck? Or just retire from hands-on crimefighting. (Dixon had Tim admit to Dick that he had no intention of continuing indefinitely. [Dixon's "Nightwing, Vol 2," I *think*.) I'd have preferred Tim over Lucius, by a long way, in a modified Alfred role. I am not interested in Lucius or Luke, but I do have some emotional stakes in Tim.

----------


## AmiMizuno

That the Batam need to be less characters. It's just they keep growing the characters but sometimes the main cast suffers more.

----------


## Valentonis

I'm beginning to fall out of love with the concept of the batfamily myself. It's become increasingly obvious that they aren't a team of equally respected heroes like the JL or Titans, but instead just Batman's cabal of disposable sidekicks, that can be fed to whatever villain of the month for easy drama.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm beginning to fall out of love with the concept of the batfamily myself. It's become increasingly obvious that they aren't a team of equally respected heroes like the JL or Titans, but instead just Batman's cabal of disposable sidekicks, that can be fed to whatever villain of the month for easy drama.


But that's not a problem of the concept. It's a problem of what they do with it in the actual Batman book.

----------


## Tzigone

> That the Batam need to be less characters. It's just they keep growing the characters but sometimes the main cast suffers more.


I'm kinda in the same boat.  I don't want lose any of the characters I like, but I don't think they manage/balance the characters well, and don't want any new characters added because TPTB will diminish the ones already there. I haven't read very much New 52, so I'm willing to discard all those characters, as I don't know them, but of course, people who do like them won't feel that way.  Huntress and Batwoman are fine to me, but should be outside the Batfam (especially Huntress).  Read very little of Jeal Paul and not interested. But at least not creating new characters seems a safe bet - not one will be upset their character is neglected if the character is never created in the first place.  Actually, regarding N52 characters, I wouldn't mind keeping Duke, but would prefer him be like I like Huntress and Batwoman and not much work with Batman.




> I'm beginning to fall out of love with the concept of the batfamily myself. It's become increasingly obvious that they aren't a team of equally respected heroes like the JL or Titans, but instead just Batman's cabal of disposable sidekicks


Yep. And what makes it so much worse for me is that it's not just DC's attitude, but that Bruce seems to value them so lightly - maybe not their lives/deaths, but in terms of respect and caring about their happiness, etc.

I liked Tim better back when he had a dad and stepmom and civilian friends and so forth.

----------


## Sergard

> For me its Tim Drake. I'm not quite sure why. I just cannot for the life of me find his character interesting like the rest of the Batfamily. [...]


For me it's Dick Grayson. I just can't bring myself to like him.
Although I don't hope that he slips on a banana peel and breaks his neck.
Everyone should be allowed to enjoy their favorite characters.

----------


## johnpeelgothisgun

> Yep. And what makes it so much worse for me is that it's not just DC's attitude, but that Bruce seems to value them so lightly - maybe not their lives/deaths, but in terms of respect and caring about their happiness, etc.


For me, the Batfamily is pretty much what we're shown in the Batcave in "Death of the Family": Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara, and Alfred. I'd guess that most of the writers and many of the readers feel the same way and this is given expression in the Joker's selection of victims. The Joker has more than once been employed as a Mary Sue-ish mouthpiece.




> I liked Tim better back when he had a dad and stepmom and civilian friends and so forth.


Yes. I wish they'd stuck to Wolfman's original idea of Tim.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I feel like the best way is to keep major character and the rest of the new characters should be expand family. We see them but not has often That maybe some of them are in the TT or other groups and return to the Batfam if they are very serious. I mean Batwing? I feel there really is no reason for them to always appear.

----------


## jetengine

The issue isnt Batman its comics in general. For the family to work you need growth and only two characters have had any substantial growth.

Dick - Done when you could feasibly make big changes and have them stick.
Jason - Was a footnote for 30 odd years so when he came back he HAD to be different.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm kinda in the same boat.  I don't want lose any of the characters I like, but I don't think they manage/balance the characters well, and don't want any new characters added because TPTB will diminish the ones already there. I haven't read very much New 52, so I'm willing to discard all those characters, as I don't know them, but of course, people who do like them won't feel that way.  Huntress and Batwoman are fine to me, but should be outside the Batfam (especially Huntress).  Read very little of Jeal Paul and not interested. But at least not creating new characters seems a safe bet - not one will be upset their character is neglected if the character is never created in the first place.  Actually, regarding N52 characters, I wouldn't mind keeping Duke, but would prefer him be like I like Huntress and Batwoman and not much work with Batman.


I think about 10 the max of what the writers could handle and the franchise can support.

----------


## phantom1592

> I think about 10 the max of what the writers could handle and the franchise can support.


Man... they don't even let the Justice League get past 7 very often....  I really don't like 'Batman' books to be full legitimate 'Team' books. Just not enough spotlight to go around. A partner or two maybe... but either someone's getting too much attention... or someone else is pushed off and forgotten about completely... Not a lot of middle ground here.

----------


## WonderNight

> Man... they don't even let the Justice League get past 7 very often....  I really don't like 'Batman' books to be full legitimate 'Team' books. Just not enough spotlight to go around. A partner or two maybe... but either someone's getting too much attention... or someone else is pushed off and forgotten about completely... Not a lot of middle ground here.


Yeap so please move nightwing to another office please. There's no room in the bat office.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeap so please move nightwing to another office please. There's no room in the bat office.


What other office would take him?

----------


## Restingvoice

> For me it's Dick Grayson. I just can't bring myself to like him.
> Although I don't hope that he slips on a banana peel and breaks his neck.
> Everyone should be allowed to enjoy their favorite characters.


It didn't involve a banana but he already broke his neck XD

Wait let me count the Batfam members again, starting with the ones with costume
1. Bruce
2. Dick
3. Selina
4. Jason 
5. Tim
6. Steph
7. Cass
8. Helena
9. Duke
10. Luke
11. Jean-Paul
12. Kate
13. Bette
Then the ones not in costume but close enough proximity to be recurring
14. Alfred
15. Gordon
16. Lucius
17. Leslie
Then the ones in or out of costume but inactive 
18. Harper
19. Harold Alnut
Then the extended family 
20. Cullen Row
21. Tamara Fox
22. Tiffany Fox
23. Lucius' wife
24. Duke's... brother?
25. Duke's parents
Then the ones who died but once has been a supporting cast
26. Tim's parents
More of the forgotten ones
27. Kathy Kane
28. Onyx
29. Sasha Bordeaux (I think she's in Wonder Woman now) 
30. Misfit? Or does she count as Birds of Prey supporting cast?
Became Enemy
31. Gotham Girl
32. Holly Robinson
Another one I forgot if you wanna count her
33. Kitrina Falcone (Catgirl) 
Might as well since he's in the Batman Family book in the 70s
34. Kirk Langstrom
and his family, a wife and two kids

Accidentally deleted
35. Babs
36. Damian

----------


## RedBird

> It didn't involve a banana but he already broke his neck XD
> 
> Wait let me count the Batfam members again, starting with the ones with costume
> 1. Bruce
> 2. Dick
> 3. Selina
> 4. Jason 
> 5. Tim
> 6. Steph
> ...


There's also Babs and Damian.

----------


## Restingvoice

> There's also Babs and Damian.


Oh, I deleted them? That was my second list. My first one includes Babs and Dami but I included everyone so the second one I categorize them better.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> It didn't involve a banana but he already broke his neck XD
> 
> Wait let me count the Batfam members again, starting with the ones with costume
> 1. Bruce
> 2. Dick
> 3. Selina
> 4. Jason 
> 5. Tim
> 6. Steph
> ...


And I thought the X-men roster was too large.

----------


## Aahz

> Man... they don't even let the Justice League get past 7 very often....  I really don't like 'Batman' books to be full legitimate 'Team' books. Just not enough spotlight to go around. A partner or two maybe... but either someone's getting too much attention... or someone else is pushed off and forgotten about completely... Not a lot of middle ground here.


In the late 90s early 2000s, they had the following members running around in costume, and back then it worked quite good:
1. Bruce
2. Dick
3. Tim
4. Barbara
5. Cass
6. Steph
7. Selina
8. Helena
9. Jean-Paul

So I think that's about the maximum you could do. Of course it is easier with less, and I'm not sure if the current writers could handle that many characters.

----------


## Tzigone

I thought it worked okay in the 90s (besides the crossovers) in that Tim had his book and his supporting characters, and his supporting characters didn't generally show up in Batman (so I would not have ever considered them Batfam).  But Tim was still young and learning.  Dick wasn't as spun-off in that era as earlier, and I do think the distance he had earlier helped, and he still had more distance with Tim.  Whenever he's with Batman, he doesn't shine as brightly because someone decided he absolutely had to be inferior to Batman when they are together. I don't know if it's to preserve rank or because it happens more often in Batman books and Batman's the star (the latter, though, doesn't seem to apply to Batman in other people's books).  I almost dread them working together sometimes, because there is too often a "put him in his place and his place isn't equal footing" element.




> In the late 90s early 2000s, they had the following members running around in costume, and back then it worked quite good:
> 1. Bruce
> 2. Dick
> 3. Tim
> 4. Barbara
> 5. Cass
> 6. Steph
> 7. Selina
> 8. Helena
> ...


I think these worked, even if I didn't love them all. I think it helped that many operated independently and did not work for Batman, did not use his cave, did not live or even have dinner at his house, etc.   Now, certainly that's happening now, but in a less palatable way, since instead of them just being independent operators, they're being diminished/disregarded by Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

Honestly, though, Batman Robin and Batgirl is the most classic must-have core team
You can include Batwoman if you want
Then the core supporting cast is the Info Breaker, Healer, and Inventor/Engineer. 
In this case, it's usually Gordon, Alfred, and Lucius. 
You can add an extra helper since Wayne Manor is big
Those are the cast
The rest either has to have their own book because they're gonna be background characters if you go beyond that.

Now since Batgirl and Robin are popular enough characters that can maintain their own book and supporting cast, you can replace them with another set of male and female sidekicks in the Batman books.
Currently, that should be Duke and Cass, but in a different era, they can be different characters, like Jean-Paul and Luke, since Stephanie can be a cast for Young Justice and Helena for Birds of Prey.

Either way, the regular sidekick/supporting role within Batman books should be given to those who don't have their own team or can't carry their own books. The Bat Family's only crowded when they try to include everyone but most of the time they don't. 

The big ones like Dick, Jason, Tim, Babs, and Damian have their own books, and they shouldn't be dragged into a Batman book to be assistants, especially the ones who operate in a different city. Unless it's not just a Bat-family crossover, but a regional event that involves the cities they operate, and a kind of anniversary. 

While they're a Batfam member, they should be treated more as main characters with their own supporting cast. They've graduated, so leave them be.

Well, maybe not Damian since he's a son and underage...

----------


## Tzigone

> Then the core supporting cast is the Info Breaker, Healer, and Inventor/Engineer.
> In this case, it's usually Gordon, Alfred, and Lucius.


I agree on info breaker - they did fine without a dedicated healer or engineer for decades.




> Now since Batgirl and Robin are popular enough characters that can maintain their own book and supporting cast, you can replace them with another set of male and female sidekicks in the Batman books.
> Currently, that should be Duke and Cass, but in a different era, they can be different characters, like Jean-Paul and Luke, since Stephanie can be a cast for Young Justice and Helena for Birds of Prey.
> 
> Either way, the regular sidekick/supporting role within Batman books should be given to those who don't have their own team or can't carry their own books. The Bat Family's only crowded when they try to include everyone but most of the time they don't.


I agree partially. But those growing out of the sidekick role need not to be ignored and rarely to be killed off, and never to be forgotten.  They shouldn't cycle kids/youths if they don't want Batman growing older, either. If time passes (instead of freezing for non-aging purposes), then adult side kicks need to start being regarded as equals.




> While they're a Batfam member, they should be treated more as main characters with their own supporting cast. They've graduated, so leave them be.


Kind of agree.




> Well, maybe not Damian since he's a son and underage...


I think Dick and Jason should be just as much regarded as sons as Damian. Albeit now the are _grown_ sons (and I believe the relationship between a parent and grown child should be one of equals).  I'm more on the fence with Tim and Cass and being adopted and/or regarded as Bruce's kids, but that's a separate issue that's about personal preference.  And, despite it making no sense, isn't Tim still underage, too?  I'd thought he went to 18, but then was told that despite Damian's age up and his college cover-story, he was still 16?

BTW, did "sidekick" ever become popular _within the universe_?  I know fans use it, of course.  And it's a proper description of the role.   But originally Robin was often (always?) "partner" - sure we all knew he was very much a junior partner, but the language used was less overtly unequal.

----------


## Zaresh

Mmmm. I think it did good during decades because Batman's menaces and gadgets weren't so dangerous or sophisticated. Nowadays, with how dangerous his enemies are, and how much dependant on complex technology he is, he needs some help to be believabe, or be believable that he can sustain a passable façade in his civilian life and persona.

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## Restingvoice

> I agree on info breaker - they did fine without a dedicated healer or engineer for decades.
> 
> I agree partially. But those growing out of the sidekick role need not to be ignored and rarely to be killed off, and never to be forgotten.  They shouldn't cycle kids/youths if they don't want Batman growing older, either. If time passes (instead of freezing for non-aging purposes), then adult side kicks need to start being regarded as equals.
> 
> Kind of agree.
> 
> I think Dick and Jason should be just as much regarded as sons as Damian. Albeit now the are _grown_ sons (and I believe the relationship between a parent and grown child should be one of equals).  I'm more on the fence with Tim and Cass and being adopted and/or regarded as Bruce's kids, but that's a separate issue that's about personal preference.  And, despite it making no sense, isn't Tim still underage, too?  I'd thought he went to 18, but then was told that despite Damian's age up and his college cover-story, he was still 16?
> 
> BTW, did "sidekick" ever become popular _within the universe_?  I know fans use it, of course.  And it's a proper description of the role.   But originally Robin was often (always?) "partner" - sure we all knew he was very much a junior partner, but the language used was less overtly unequal.


The engineer is needed as the gadgets get more advanced, so it's more needed now compared to decades ago. Healer, even multiple ones maybe needed as the family grows bigger. It's just good to have back up outside of the costumed heroes in case they're all incapacitated at the same time. 

Yeah, Tim is still underage too, but all of them are used to go off on their own, so I guess I automatically emphasize on Damian because he's the baby.

Not sure about sidekicks. After Golden Age Robin, everyone gets some, and it still continues to recent years. More often in the story, it's the sidekick that starts appealing to the adults, sometimes nagging and doing dangerous things until the adult heroes are like "FIIIINE... it's better me training you than you end up dead"

The term sidekick isn't really used in the story unless a third person is narrating by describing what the heroes' relations are, or if the former sidekicks call themselves a former sidekick in their narration boxes.

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## Tzigone

> The term sidekick isn't really used in the story unless a third person is narrating by describing what the heroes' relations are, or if the former sidekicks call themselves a former sidekick in their narration boxes.


Yes, it's in-story use of the term that I was talking about, not their existence.

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## AmiMizuno

I know it's a comic but how does the Batfam get around with not have CPS called on them for having underage minors in dangerous events. I often wanted to see a parody of that.

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## Restingvoice

> I know it's a comic but how does the Batfam get around with not have CPS called on them for having underage minors in dangerous events. I often wanted to see a parody of that.


The CPS doesn't know where they live and The Bat-Signal is on the rooftop of GCPD, inaccessible to most people.




> Yes, it's in-story use of the term that I was talking about, not their existence.


Then yeah, it's used in those cases. Like a thug explaining "That's Nightwing. Batman's first sidekick" to another thug. So I guess the term is quite common.

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## Tzigone

> The CPS doesn't know where they live and The Bat-Signal is on the rooftop of GCPD, inaccessible to most people.


What about a court order to turn it on the lure them and social services grabbing the kid (just ignoring all the cops that occasionally interact with the younger members and could act then).  Well, it'd be funny for a parody, anyway - especially if it was Damian.




> Then yeah, it's used in those cases. Like a thug explaining "That's Nightwing. Batman's first sidekick" to another thug. So I guess the term is quite common.


Okay, so I guess now the question is when it started getting used a lot.

----------


## Gotham citizen

So the Commissioner Gordon is the one who risks everything with the children protection service.
I think Robin should be 18/20 years old (no more older).

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## AmiMizuno

> So the Commissioner Gordon is the one who risks everything with the children protection service.
> I think Robin should be 18/20 years old (no more older).



If anything Gordon can arrest Batman. But in a sense it makes sense. Gotham is a messed up place. So Kids can be superheroes.

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## Restingvoice

> What about a court order to turn it on the lure them and social services grabbing the kid (just ignoring all the cops that occasionally interact with the younger members and could act then).  Well, it'd be funny for a parody, anyway - especially if it was Damian.
> 
> 
> Okay, so I guess now the question is when it started getting used a lot.


Court order can do that. Other people that also can override Gordon's authority are the FBI or Amanda Waller. Other people charismatic enough to convince him to change his mind like Harvey Dent in the old days can apply.

Most of the Gothamites are probably so thankful for Batman and Robin that they don't want to report them. 

No idea when they started to use the term sidekick.

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## jetengine

Batman has been called out a few times for endangering kids in his vigilante antics. Iirc the Flash really let loose on him.

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## AmiMizuno

I mean what would be one way around this sitution? I mean in many cases we due have robins getting PTSD

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## Gotham citizen

> If anything Gordon can arrest Batman. But in a sense it makes sense. Gotham is a messed up place. So Kids can be superheroes.


A thirteen year old boy is too immature to be a anything, he can to want became a superhero and he can create (a lot of) trouble with this desire, but he cannot be an hero, maybe when he become sixteen year old might be enough mature, but not first.

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## Tzigone

I like the kid heroes, even if they are unrealistic - so much else is, too.  But I can understand the desire not to have any more now that comics are supposedly "more realistic" (I'd argue they are just unrealistic in different ways).  Still don't want the ones we already had erased or retconned to starting older.

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## AmiMizuno

> A thirteen year old boy is too immature to be a anything, he can to want became a superhero and he can create (a lot of) trouble with this desire, but he cannot be an hero, maybe when he become sixteen year old might be enough mature, but not first.


By that I  mean no one would say anything about Batman having kids helping him. That any little bit to helps Gotham. One question also which in a way was answered in Batman: animated series. Is Batman making the villains or are the villans already crazy before Batman

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## Gotham citizen

In my opinion Gotham created Batman and his enemies, but in this moment it is a topic too complex for me, so I prefer await a little and explain what I mean another time.

About the Robin's age I wanted say in the book Robin did never behaved like an actual thirteen year old boy and neither he could, because he would be a source of trouble, not an help for Batman and in fact he behaved, talked and thought in a way more similar to a sixteen year old boy; at least this is the feeling I had reading the stories with Robin.

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## Blue22

Damian definitely acts older than most 13 olds but there's a reason for that. I think younger heroes like Tim, Bart, Cassie, Jon and the Titans didn't act any older or younger than they actually were though. Some of them were smarter than the average child (Tim in particular) but they still acted like kids.

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## AmiMizuno

I get why due to his upbringing. At times I wish Damien was less and less uptight. We see that but then writers go back and change him as if he was meeting Bruce for the first time. I don’t mind his personality just cat times I feel they aren’t letting him grow.

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## Blue22

I've been saying something similar for a few years now. Damian and his emotional growth has always fluctuated more than his physical growth. Especially during (and after, to an extent) Rebirth, where he could almost be a completely different person depending on who writes him. I wouldn't say there's no growth at all but a lot of the times it really does feel like he's learning the same lessons all over again.

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## Godlike13

> Honestly, though, Batman Robin and Batgirl is the most classic must-have core team
> You can include Batwoman if you want
> Then the core supporting cast is the Info Breaker, Healer, and Inventor/Engineer. 
> In this case, it's usually Gordon, Alfred, and Lucius. 
> You can add an extra helper since Wayne Manor is big
> Those are the cast
> The rest either has to have their own book because they're gonna be background characters if you go beyond that.
> 
> Now since Batgirl and Robin are popular enough characters that can maintain their own book and supporting cast, you can replace them with another set of male and female sidekicks in the Batman books.
> ...


Here is the problem with give to those who don't have their own team or can't carry their own books. Sometimes its just boils down to there are character that people are interested in, and characters that people aren't very interested in. The ones that can carry their own book are the one they know people are interested in. So who would you use characters people will pay money to read about or character who people don't know or could give 2 shits about. Part of the reason the Bat family has got so bloated and redundant is because they keep creating new members that don't necessarily catch to fill the roles left by the one that did catch.

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## AmiMizuno

This is why maybe characters like Batwing could me a little more in the Batman books than Nightwing.

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## Godlike13

Except if someone shot Batwing in the head no one would give a shit. Thats not big deal or traumatic moment for Batman's character or his readers. Though apparently Dick getting shot isn't either, but you get my point. They need to better balance doing more with the characters people actually care about and creating new characters to fill old roles. Otherwise you find yourself with a bloated and redundant cast portions of your fan base starts to resent.

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## Restingvoice

> Here is the problem with give to those who don't have their own team or can't carry their own books. Sometimes its just boils down to there are character that people are interested in, and characters that people aren't very interested in. The ones that can carry their own book are the one they know people are interested in. So who would you use characters people will pay money to read about or character who people don't know or could give 2 shits about. Part of the reason the Bat family has got so bloated and redundant is because they keep creating new members that don't necessarily catch to fill the roles left by the one that did catch.


I don't really see the problem since they're gonna be a supporting cast and not the main character. 

You mean they like to use the popular character because they make their fans want to read the Batman books? But there are already more people reading Batman books than Batfam books, sometimes double the numbers. They don't need more. Though I guess numbers are numbers.

and yeah they should stop creating more.

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## Godlike13

You don't want a supporting cast people aren't interested in, that doesn't help your main character or book overall. And just because Batman sells more then Bat family books doesn't mean the Batman books doesn't needs more readers or even to keep readers. Take Catwoman for example, what do you think is a bigger draw. Them teasing marriage between Batman and Catwoman, a character a relationship people are invested in, or some new person no one knows or or would care about otherwise. 

And my point isn't to stop creating new characters, thats not good either, but there needs to be a better balance. Like i said they need to balance doing more with the characters people actually care about and creating interesting new characters to fill old roles in new and interesting ways. We don't need 17 different versions of the same character to do similar things, but at the same time no new characters isn't any fun either.

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## AmiMizuno

The issue is how many characters should be in the books. We need a balance to make it okay. Like maybe Batwing and Dick on in one issue and it recycles. Batfam is there but each other doesn't appear too often

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## Restingvoice

Hmm... maybe those YA graphic novels or digital-only books would be the better way if there are not enough fans of that character to move the numbers for single issues or if the readers aren't the type who go to the comics shop.

But in order to get those books, the characters have to be reasonably popular first, like how Cass and Super Sons got graphic novels now.

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## AmiMizuno

I mean I don't mind new characters but I feel no one really would cares for them

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## Godlike13

Also i think its fair to point out, a lot of new Bat characters aren't even created to be supporting characters. Now they often just slap the Bat brand on characters created or envisioned to be central characters. Dick was created to be Bruce's Watson, so its his character to be able to help support Batman. To a fault now maybe, but still. But a character that was mentioned like Cass Cain. That character wasn't built to support anyone. Its uncharacteristic for her to even lose a fight. Seriously if a non super powered character even touches her, and even some super powered people, its often perceived as out of characters. Now im not trying to knock Cass here, thats not my point here, but hopefully you see what im saying. Batwing is another one. He was created to be the Batman of Africa, and then recreated to be a Batman Beyond/Nightwing like central character. Shoot him in the head just to make Batman sad. Your gonna find yourself with people who either don't care or find it offensive. 

BTW i say this as someone who would have loved to see anyone else shot in the head instead of Dick at this point. I don't want what im saying to be misconstrue to i just want Dick in Batman. Right now the further he could get away from Batman and the current Bat office the better IMO.

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## Restingvoice

> Also i think it fair to point out, a lot of new Bat characters aren't even created to be supporting characters. Now they often just slap the Bat brand on characters created or envisioned to be central characters. Dick was created to be Bruce's Watson, so its his character to be able to help support Batman. To a fault now maybe, but still. But a character that was mentioned like Cass Cain. That character wasn't built to support anyone. Its uncharacteristic for her to even lose a fight. Seriously if a non super powered character even touches her, and even some super powered people, its often perceived as out of characters. Now im not trying to knock Cass here, thats not my point here, but hopefully you see what im saying. With good number of the current Bat family its not even in their nature to be supporting characters. Its not what they were designed for. Batwing is another one. He was created to be the Batman of Africa, and then recreated to be a Batman Beyond/Nightwing like central character. Shoot him in the head just to make Batman sad. Your gonna find yourself with people who either don't care or find it offensive.


Point. Maybe that's why Cass Cain Batgirl series can go for so long because she can stand on her own. 

David didn't because he's too far away, and Luke... well, I think by this point there are already so many more popular Batfam characters with their own books that people just don't have any pocket money left. 

Duke and Harper are created as a supporting cast though, Duke to be a Robin and Harper as a civilian point of view character. Then they push Harper too hard before gathering enough fans and make people don't like her.

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## Tzigone

> Duke and Harper are created as a supporting cast though, Duke to be a Robin and Harper as a civilian point of view character. Then they push Harper too hard before gathering enough fans and make people don't like her.


Never read Harper, but I liked Duke in the mini and we are Robin. More ensembley. Well, in WaR somewhat, in his mini, he was the star with the has supporting cast. I'd rather see him with them than with the Bruce.   Maybe work with Damian some, as that dynamic was a bit interesting. Though mostly in a way that "expires" naturally for a hero (he didn't like the kid's personality, but knew the kid was capable and suited to handling things way out Duke's league, but his skill would move up in time and make that no longer the case).

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## jetengine

I maintain that some of the sidekicks they want to flourish need to go to other cities. Gotham is crowded as fuck and Batman having agents all across the globe is semi-canon.

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## Restingvoice

> Never read Harper, but I liked Duke in the mini and we are Robin. More ensembley. Well, in WaR somewhat, in his mini, he was the star with the has supporting cast. I'd rather see him with them than with the Bruce.   Maybe work with Damian some, as that dynamic was a bit interesting. Though mostly in a way that "expires" naturally for a hero (he didn't like the kid's personality, but knew the kid was capable and suited to handling things way out Duke's league, but his skill would move up in time and make that no longer the case).


Yes. Duke in We Are Robin works because that story came out naturally based on all the conditions that happened beforehand. His parents were attacked and incapacitated by the Joker, then Batman was presumed dead while Bruce got amnesia and Damian went away to atone for his past sins. Duke has an issue to settle but no way to go, so when he and other kids were offered a chance to make a difference in a city that lost its Batman and Robin, they take it. 

It's a series with a deadline, can only go up until the city got their official Batman and Robin again, but it works for that particular setting.

Then once he's actually taken into the Manor, they have to rack their brains again to make him stand out.

Now that I think about it, since the Robin War has Dick and the others trained him, and they acknowledged his and the other kids' ability, they should be able to continue operating and the series can continue, but Snyder wants Duke at the Manor.

We Are Robin as a series theoretically can continue with Damian, the official Robin, and Duke, the acknowledged unofficial Robin, co-leading the same cast.

----------


## Zaresh

Edited: 

Nevermind. I read wrong. This is what happens when I read too fast.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How much do people even like the new cast? Because if they don’t like it they shouldn’t really have them around much

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## Restingvoice

> How much do people even like the new cast? Because if they don’t like it they shouldn’t really have them around much


Sale number wise, Luke managed to sustain a series for two or three years I think? Before it gets canceled? Beyond appearances in team books, they haven't tried again, but he's gonna be Batman in the 5th Generation story.

Duke is popular enough they give him a mini-series after We Are Robin, though it could also be that the person who keeps pushing him is Scott Snyder, one of the biggest names at DC so maybe they allow it to see if he can sustain a series but looks like the sale is not enough for a solo ongoing, but he's around long enough and proved himself so he gets to be featured in another team book. 

Harper never got a solo chance because of all the problems I mentioned before. Aside from a few cameos in Detective Comics, she got benched.

----------


## Blue22

Which is a shame because I always found Harper to be a million times more interesting than Duke. I liked Duke in We Are Robin (even though I hated that little arc as a whole) but after officially joining the family he just became...boring.

----------


## jetengine

Wasnt Harpers problem that someone outed Snyders intention to make her Nightwing ?

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## Godlike13

> Sale number wise, Luke managed to sustain a series for two or three years I think? Before it gets canceled? Beyond appearances in team books, they haven't tried again, but he's gonna be Batman in the 5th Generation story.
> 
> Duke is popular enough they give him a mini-series after We Are Robin, though it could also be that the person who keeps pushing him is Scott Snyder, one of the biggest names at DC so maybe they allow it to see if he can sustain a series but looks like the sale is not enough for a solo ongoing, but he's around long enough and proved himself so he gets to be featured in another team book. 
> 
> Harper never got a solo chance because of all the problems I mentioned before. Aside from a few cameos in Detective Comics, she got benched.


Luke lasted just over a year, and it was probably given some leeway to even get that far.




> Wasnt Harpers problem that someone outed Snyders intention to make her Nightwing ?


It was just the wrong time for Harper. And the what they tried to do with her didn't really seem to connect. After spending a biweekly on her they seem to give up on her.

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## AmiMizuno

How is Batman’s parenting style? I kind of have to wonder he has done some twisted things in some comcis. Making you wonder bad or good parent. One it’s just something I wish was kind of made a parody

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## gregpersons

> How is Batman’s parenting style? I kind of have to wonder he has done some twisted things in some comcis. Making you wonder bad or good parent. One it’s just something I wish was kind of made a parody

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## gregpersons

Rachel Dawes from the Nolan-verse should be incorporated into the main continuity's backstory. She could be part of Batman's ongoing dynamic with Two Face with a retcon, maybe with 5g.

I like that Andrea Beaumont will be part of Batman/Catwoman, whenever that comes out, and generally like the idea of "everything happened" continuity.

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## lemonpeace

> It didn't involve a banana but he already broke his neck XD
> 
> Wait let me count the Batfam members again, starting with the ones with costume
> 1. Bruce
> 2. Dick
> 3. Selina
> 4. Jason 
> 5. Tim
> 6. Steph
> ...


Duke doesn't have a brother

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## TheRay

Batman should be complex and it should be debatable whether or not he should get a happy conclusion to his story.

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## Restingvoice

> Wasnt Harpers problem that someone outed Snyders intention to make her Nightwing ?


I forgot if it's leaked or Dustin Nguyen posted the concept art of her superhero identity, but when people saw it they immediately assumed she's gonna be Nightwing, and with Nightwing recently unmasked, murdered, revived and make secret agent in stories no one asked, people flipped, as she hasn't earned an identity so personal to Dick. Turns out she's gonna be named Bluebird.

Fast forward recently however, Snyder admitted that they wanted to make her Nightwing, but fan backlash changed their mind




> How is Batman’s parenting style? I kind of have to wonder he has done some twisted things in some comcis. Making you wonder bad or good parent. One it’s just something I wish was kind of made a parody


Entirely different based on the era, the writers, editors, a clash of intention between writers and the different tone of the books 

Like if one writer is focusing in one relationship, the other in the others, but it's portrayed differently because of the tone of the story or the writer's own interpretation, the impression became that he cares more about one than the other. 

The most common example is he looks like he cares more, or at least, have fun more with people's kid and the Justice League than his own because Batman book is dark, dangerous and obsessive, he sets this high standard and harsh for his kids, but because the League books are more superheroic and fun, he can appear kindly or having fun with the others. 




> Rachel Dawes from the Nolan-verse should be incorporated into the main continuity's backstory. She could be part of Batman's ongoing dynamic with Two Face with a retcon, maybe with 5g.
> 
> I like that Andrea Beaumont will be part of Batman/Catwoman, whenever that comes out, and generally like the idea of "everything happened" continuity.


I like everything happened too.

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## Restingvoice

Update
Costumed family members
1. Bruce
2. Dick
3. Selina
4. Jason
5. Tim
6. Steph
7. Cass
8. Helena
9. Duke
10. Luke
11. Jean-Paul
12. Kate
13. Bette
Then the ones not in costume but close enough proximity to be recurring
14. Alfred
15. Gordon
16. Lucius
17. Leslie
Then the ones in or out of costume but inactive
18. Harper
19. Harold Alnut
Then the extended family
20. Cullen Row
21. Tamara Fox
22. Tiffany Fox
23. Lucius' wife
24. Duke's mom
25. Duke's dad
Then the ones who died but once has been a supporting cast
26. Tim's parents
More of the forgotten ones
27. Kathy Kane
28. Onyx
29. Sasha Bordeaux (I think she's in Wonder Woman now)
30. Misfit? Or does she count as Birds of Prey supporting cast?
Became Enemy
31. Gotham Girl
32. Holly Robinson
Another one I forgot if you wanna count her
33. Kitrina Falcone (Catgirl)
Might as well since he's in the Batman Family book in the 70s
34. Kirk Langstrom
and his family, a wife and two kids

Accidentally deleted
35. Babs
36. Damian

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## Aahz

There are a few more extended members.

- The Batman Inc. Members
- The Rest of the We are Robin Kids
- Talon and Strix

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## Godlike13

> Duke doesn't have a brother


Yes he does, his name is Nukem  :Cool:

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## Restingvoice

> There are a few more extended members.
> 
> - The Batman Inc. Members
> - The Rest of the We are Robin Kids
> - Talon and Strix


Okay. Let's count all of them ^^

Costumed family members
1. Bruce
2. Dick
3. Selina
4. Jason
5. Tim
6. Steph
7. Cass
8. Helena
9. Duke
10. Luke
11. Jean-Paul
12. Kate
13. Bette
Then the ones not in costume but close enough proximity to be recurring
14. Alfred
15. Gordon
16. Lucius
17. Leslie
Then the ones in or out of costume but inactive
18. Harper
19. Harold Alnut
Then the extended family
20. Cullen Row
21. Tamara Fox
22. Tiffany Fox
23. Lucius' wife
24. Duke's parents
25. Duke's cousin
Then the ones who died but once has been a supporting cast
26. Tim's parents
More of the forgotten ones
27. Kathy Kane
28. Onyx
29. Sasha Bordeaux (I think she's in Wonder Woman now)
30. Misfit? Or does she count as Birds of Prey supporting cast?
Became Enemy
31. Gotham Girl
32. Holly Robinson
Another one I forgot if you wanna count her
33. Kitrina Falcone (Catgirl)
Might as well since he's in the Batman Family book in the 70s
34. Kirk Langstrom
and his family, a wife and two kids

Accidentally deleted
35. Babs
36. Damian

Another forgotten
37. Talon Calvin Rose
38. Talon Strix 
Batman Inc
39. Knight
40. Squire
41. Man of Bats
43. His son/sidekick
44. The one from Australia
45. El Gaucho
46. Michael Lane Azrael
47. The Japan one. Hiro.
48. Something Canary

We Are Robins
49. Dex Chill
50. Riko
51. The one with the hood
52. The black girl
Sorry I don't remember the names

Gotham Academy, might as well
53. Maps Mizoguchi
54. Kyle Mizoguchi
55. Colton Rivera
56. Pomeline
57. Olive Silverlock
58. The Man-Bat kid
59. Clayface's daughter

You know what, this supposed to be a family list, not the whole supporting cast so I'm stopping there and you guys can stop anywhere.

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## Tzigone

> Duke doesn't have a brother


I believe poster mean his cousin from the mini and just didn't know the nature of the familial relationship. Could be wrong.

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## TheRay

Bruce Waynes Uncle Philip should play a larger role in his stories.

----------


## Robanker

Bruce should hang a sign at every entrance to the cave that reads "no vacancies, try Star City."

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## AmiMizuno

I mean Bruce generally while being dark does should light from time to time. Shouldn't that extend to the robins?

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## Jackalope89

> I mean Bruce generally while being dark does should light from time to time. Shouldn't that extend to the robins?


It generally does. The Robins have each had a number of light moments, both as Robin, and after. Even Damian has had those, notably when teamed up with Dick or in Super Sons when that was still going. 

Its Bruce that has been the grim dark guy, barring a writer here and there in modern times.

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## AmiMizuno

I notice that and I do understand it from time to time. When it comes to poisons or fear has aren’t the Batfam generally immune to Ivy and scarecrow’s gases and posions.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I notice that and I do understand it from time to time. When it comes to poisons or fear has aren’t the Batfam generally immune to Ivy and scarecrow’s gases and posions.


Some resistance, I believe. But ultimately, they have antidotes on hand for those two.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I wonder if they should ever be almost competely immue. Like it could actually take hourse before they feel affects.

----------


## Restingvoice

Batman's usually shown as having enough will and determination to hold off the effects until he gets the antidote as part of his badass cred. 

The others not so much. Often nerfed. It depends on the writers. 

When they're trying to make a point in the narrative, like in Death of The Family, therefore, to show their family bond, all the Batfam including Alfred can hold off Joker venom long enough for the antidote.

----------


## TheRay

Red Robin should join the Doom Patrol for a series.

----------


## Robanker

Now that the dust's cleared, don't care for Last Knight on Earth. Didn't really work for me, but damn if every page wasn't beautiful.

----------


## Zaresh

> Red Robin should join the Doom Patrol for a series.


I would read that.
Actually, I think that's a good idea.
I mean, it could be pretty interesting, and it could bring a few interesting interaction and stories to the table.

----------


## phantom1592

> Red Robin should join the Doom Patrol for a series.


Why?   Isnt' the theme of Doom Patrol being the freaks and outcasts banding together? What does Tim have to do with any of that?

----------


## Zaresh

> Why?   Isnt' the theme of Doom Patrol being the freaks and outcasts banding together? What does Tim have to do with any of that?


It would be a nice outsider view.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious. How does Bruce or any of the Batfam get away from no voice analyses

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm curious. How does Bruce or any of the Batfam get away from no voice analyses


voice analysis from where?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> voice analysis from where?


Every now and then the Batfam would talk to news reporters. What’s stopping one person from running a voice test to see if it belongs to someone in Gotham

----------


## Tzigone

> Every now and then the Batfam would talk to news reporters. What’s stopping one person from running a voice test to see if it belongs to someone in Gotham


How are they going to get voice samples of every person in Gotham? Sure, Bruce Wayne is a pretty public figure, but they have no reason (most of the time) to suspect he (or any other public figure) is Batman, so no reason to compare them.  It's needle in a very large haystack with a very low chance of success to someone who doesn't already have suspect.  They'd need access to a huge library of voices to compare - does Amazon keep that stuff?  Not that Bruce would have that in his home, but I'm just trying to think of large repositories of data.  Not sure how much speaker distance, etc. matter since I know nothing about it, really.

----------


## Caivu

> How are they going to get voice samples of every person in Gotham? Sure, Bruce Wayne is a pretty public figure, but they have no reason (most of the time) to suspect he (or any other public figure) is Batman, so no reason to compare them.  It's needle in a very large haystack with a very low chance of success to someone who doesn't already have suspect.  They'd need access to a huge library of voices to compare - does Amazon keep that stuff?  Not that Bruce would have that in his home, but I'm just trying to think of large repositories of data.  Not sure how much speaker distance, etc. matter since I know nothing about it, really.


Plus they could just disguise their voices while in costume. Wouldn't even have to be much, just enough to muddy up their civilian voices.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Every now and then the Batfam would talk to news reporters. What’s stopping one person from running a voice test to see if it belongs to someone in Gotham


Why for godssake would they do something stupid like that? If I were a vigilante with suicidal tendencies... sure. Then I'd talk to Reporters. From a story perspective it wouldn't be interesting unless you are Tynion... then maybe you'd write something like that.

----------


## Katana500

the only groups which could probably keep a database of every voice in gotham would probably be the government or maybe at a stretch extremely big companies that are a bit dodgy and I'm not sure that they would want to arrest Bruce even if they did know. If they went after Batman and caught him all it would do is leave Gotham very vulnerable to one of its 100s of super villian pychopaths.

----------


## dietrich

> How is BatmanÂ’s parenting style? I kind of have to wonder he has done some twisted things in some comcis. Making you wonder bad or good parent. One itÂ’s just something I wish was kind of made a parody


Parenting Style - Did you see that story of the dad who took his 9yr old shooting and then accidentally shot him? That's pretty much Bruce. 

Bruce is without question a bad parent. A Good Parent or Guardian at the very least does what's in the child's best interest.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Every now and then the Batfam would talk to news reporters. What’s stopping one person from running a voice test to see if it belongs to someone in Gotham


They avoid reporters, and Batman at least has a voice modulator. The fam usually only talks to the police, coroner, informants, victims or criminals themselves. They're usually gone by the time reporters start coming in, and if they find the body, they can be gone before the cops are even there.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Every now and then the Batfam would talk to news reporters. What’s stopping one person from running a voice test to see if it belongs to someone in Gotham


Do you suggest to record the voices of all white male with the same age, the same height and the same physique of Batman, even if no one know exactly his age, height and physique, in order to confront those voices whit the record of the Batman's one? I think it would be an huge works even if all the records would be perfect, but if those records were distorted by the noise of the street (like it is probably), then it would be a mission almost impossible.
Moreover Bruce, Tim, Dick could decide to use the same costume in the same night, in order to have three Batman, or three Nightwing, or three Red Robin (or whatever the Tim's identy is) in different place of Gotham and set on the wrong track who try to find out their real identity; obviously Batwoman, Batgirl & Co. could do the same thing.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Do you suggest to record the voices of all white male with the same age, the same height and the same physique of Batman, even if no one know exactly his age, height and physique, in order to confront those voices whit the record of the Batman's one? I think it would be an huge works even if all the records would be perfect, but if those records were distorted by the noise of the street (like it is probably), then it would be a mission almost impossible.
> Moreover Bruce, Tim, Dick could decide to use the same costume in the same night, in order to have three Batman, or three Nightwing, or three Red Robin (or whatever the Tim's identy is) in different place of Gotham and set on the wrong track who try to find out their real identity; obviously Batwoman, Batgirl & Co. could do the same thing.


And until recently, Jason was legally dead. So no one in the general populace would have been looking for him.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is Robin’s colors of yellow,red and green to make him a target? I know that each robin has slightly different colors but still have standout colors

----------


## Gotham citizen

I answered to you here: Bat-family suit, because I fear we are off topic.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, continuing from the voice topic, the Batfam erases every record that can identify them. The most often cited is DNA. No one has their DNA records except them. If such records exist in the GCPD or hospitals, they'll steal or destroy them.

----------


## 9th.

> Okay. Let's count all of them ^^
> 
> Costumed family members
> 1. Bruce
> 2. Dick
> 3. Selina
> 4. Jason
> 5. Tim
> 6. Steph
> ...


Does Julia count? Alfred's daughter

----------


## Restingvoice

> Does Julia count? Alfred's daughter


She should be there but if she's not then I also forget about her when I rewrite the list.

60 then.

----------


## TheRay

> Isnt the theme of Doom Patrol being the freaks and outcasts banding together?


I think you have them confused with The Outsiders.

----------


## phantom1592

> I think you have them confused with The Outsiders.


Nahhhh That one of the core themes mentioned a few times with Doom Patrol. Made them very very similar to X-Men as they were 'freaks'. The Robotman… negative Man... the 'mutated' movie starlet... None had lives they could go back to... outside of Rita, none were going to get their pictures on a cereal box or anything. It was like the Fantastic Four if everyone was the Thing.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think you have them confused with The Outsiders.


The Outsiders are a special strike team of superheroes. The Doom Patrol are outcasts.

----------


## TheRay

Even so, anyone can be described as an outcast given the right perspective.
For example, all of the Robins can easily be described as such because Batman had to take them in for one reason or another.

----------


## Agent Z

> Even so, anyone can be described as an outcast given the right perspective.
> For example, all of the Robins can easily be described as such because Batman had to take them in for one reason or another.


Tim and Dick cannot be described as outcasts by any definition of the word. Dick was taken in because Bruce felt sorry for him after his parents died and Tim was a suburban-raised kid who had his own circle of friends before he ever met Batman. Damian isn't an outcast just anti-social and Duke also had friends before he met Bruce.

The only Robin that is/was an outcast is Jason.

----------


## Frontier

> Tim and Dick cannot be described as outcasts by any definition of the word. Dick was taken in because Bruce felt sorry for him after his parents died and Tim was a suburban-raised kid who had his own circle of friends before he ever met Batman. Damian isn't an outcast just anti-social and Duke also had friends before he met Bruce.
> 
> The only Robin that is/was an outcast is Jason.


I don't know if I'd call him an outcast, but he definitely did not have a normal background before Bruce took him in, what with growing up in a carnival and never really settling down in one place.

I wouldn't say that made him isolated, but it set him apart from normal folks.

----------


## TheRay

> Tim and Dick cannot be described as outcasts by any definition of the word.


I simply disagree. At the very least it’s far too extreme to be accurate. Nightwing was seen as in danger of going down the same road as Batman, so he was, if he wasn’t already, at high risk of becoming an outcast. As for Red Robin, the case for him slightly more difficult to make, but having your own circle of friends doesn’t preclude you from being an outcast. That friend group could have been considered the outcasts of their school.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If we look at things emotional Bruce is somewhat more open with Dick than the other Robins. So in order to figure out who is the outcast, it would need to be compared to how they feel about each other and their training.

----------


## Agent Z

> I simply disagree. At the very least it’s far too extreme to be accurate. Nightwing was seen as in danger of going down the same road as Batman, so he was, if he wasn’t already, at high risk of becoming an outcast.


Not the same thing as actually being one. And Bruce's belief that Dick would go down the same road as him was based on no evidence not to mention Bruce isn't and never has been an outcast either. 






> As for Red Robin, the case for him slightly more difficult to make, but having your own circle of friends doesn’t preclude you from being an outcast. That friend group could have been considered the outcasts of their school.


There was no indication Tim and his friends were outcasts.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Even so, anyone can be described as an outcast given the right perspective.
> For example, all of the Robins can easily be described as such because Batman had to take them in for one reason or another.


Outcasted by society. Considered freaks physically. So the Robins are not since they're more liked than Batman.

----------


## Tzigone

> Tim and Dick cannot be described as outcasts by any definition of the word. Dick was taken in because Bruce felt sorry for him after his parents died and Tim was a suburban-raised kid who had his own circle of friends before he ever met Batman. Damian isn't an outcast just anti-social and Duke also had friends before he met Bruce.


I definitely don't think the Robins were outcasts.  But what friends did Tim have before meeting Batman. I know we met his public school friends in the 90s (I liked them existing), but I don't recall meeting or hearing reference to any school friends before he moved to Bristol (honestly, I'm not sure where his parents lived before that - they were later said to have a penthouse in Gotham and Tim himself was in boarding school at the time we met him).  Did we meet them later or see them in flashbacks?  Anyway, I don't remember anything indicating him in a outcast state, certainly.  But I also certainly don't remember everything.

For me, an outcast is someone who isn't accepted or welcome in the larger society around them (could be school, community, or general world).  Definitely applies to the Doom Patrol.  Doesn't really apply to any of the Bats who immediately come to mind.  Tim had a bully at his first school, sure, but plenty of friends, and the entire group was not generally ostracized.  Dick has always been generally well-liked.  Barbara and Steph and Duke are all ones who seemed to have friends, even if we didn't see them much.  Cass and Jason might come closest in the sense of how the homeless are generally treated.  Cass's communication difficulties separate her from people, but not equate to outcast status to me.  Alfred and Bruce are easily accepted in larger society and both used to have friends before Bruce got all brooding (and who they think he is is still very accepted) and before Alfred became all about Bruce. Damian's a weird case. Can't really comment on everyone else.

----------


## Katana500

Maybe you could argue Dick as an outcast due to his Romani heritage. Since Romani seem to be hated wherever they go - albeit im not sure the extent of that in the USA compared to say Europe.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim had a bully at his first school, sure, but plenty of friends, and the entire group was not generally ostracized.


Not really, if you mean Karl Ranck he was the standard arrogant Jock but he never really bullied Tim, in his frist appearance he iirc even invited Tim to hang out with him instead of his geek friends.

The only instance I can remember that one could be considered bulling, was him bragging with his car in front of Adriana (when Tim didn't had a drivers license), which was quite harmless even if it really got under Tims skin.

----------


## Godlike13

Outcast in what perspective, outcasts in the Batfamily or outcasts in society?

----------


## king81992

From a narrative perspective, Dick(and most of the Titans characters)are outcasts because of their marginalized role in the comics and years of derailment by writers/ editorial.

There were times when Dick alienated his frienda and teammates but he was never an outcast.

Tim and his buddies were never outcasts as well, they were more like likable popular kids until Johns and his successors got hold of them and they got derailed.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick grew up in a circus. Not sure if the makes him an outcast, but raised with outcasts.

----------


## Tzigone

> Dick grew up in a circus. Not sure if the makes him an outcast, but raised with outcasts.


I disagree.  They're just people with jobs. Nothing, by definition, makes circus employees outcasts.  There's the very old "freak show" aspect, but I can't think of an occasion where Haly's is said to have such a thing.  But, admittedly, I only remember about two stories with the circus, so only remember aerialists, clowns, and a strongman.

----------


## Godlike13

Not really, circus life is a lifestyle. Moving town from town, living outside of society norms with its own community. Circus people don't wake up, clock in, then go home like its a regular 9 to 5. Circus' and carnivals are havens for outcasts. Its why the Court used it for a Talon farm.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Maybe you could argue Dick as an outcast due to his Romani heritage. Since Romani seem to be hated wherever they go - albeit I'm not sure the extent of that in the USA compared to say Europe.


He's bullied at school in Batman Black/white but it's about him being a lower-class kid adopted by the richest man in Gotham and enrolled in a private school which I assume is attended by snobby rich kids. 

As an adult, he's treated no different than any other guys, aside from the ups and downs of being a known Bruce Wayne's kid.

I've heard of Romani kids experience in the US, but it's mainly about people not knowing what Roma is, they only know Gypsy, which is a slur, so they have to introduce themselves as a Gypsy first before their friends get it, and after that the equate them, innocently, with Esmeralda from Hunchback. So it's more annoying than outright bullying.

Not as bad as Europe where I read they're actually rejected from schools.

----------


## Tzigone

> He's bullied at school in Batman Black/white but it's about him being a lower-class kid adopted by the richest man in Gotham and enrolled in a private school which I assume is attended by snobby rich kids.


I really hate how in later decades they retcon misery/unhappiness into everyone's backgrounds.  Apparently, his parents being murdered in front of him wasn't bad enough.  Now he has to be bullied (despite that back when he was a kid and we actually saw him in school in the golden and silver ages, there were no such issues). And the nice-nun-orphanage prior to Bruce - had to add in him being stuck in juvenile detention facility and being beat up there. Hate that being added in.  It matters to me that Dick did have a good childhood, and was well-liked. It formed the character that he was when I liked him most.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Everyone in Batfam has to be messed up in someway. I wouldn’t mind if it happened every now and then but it doesn’t have to be every time.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Not really, circus life is a lifestyle. Moving town from town, living outside of society norms with its own community. Circus people don't wake up, clock in, then go home like its a regular 9 to 5. Circus' and carnivals are havens for outcasts. Its why the Court used it for a Talon farm.


I find it hard to believe that the Circuses would still be operating after hundreds of their performers were kidnapped (granted, over a period of years but still) or disappeared mysteriously.

The Court of Owls is a crappy 'mystery cowl' with no meaningful contrast or fowl for the Bats, and tacked onto Nightwing to give the illusion of relevance. I hope the next Crisis wipes it out.

----------


## Tzigone

> The Court of Owls is a crappy 'mystery cowl' with no meaningful contrast or fowl for the Bats, and tacked onto Nightwing to give the illusion of relevance. I hope the next Crisis wipes it out.


I agree. Hate it. I hate what it made of Pop Haly. Don't like more recent changes with Dick's parents, either. But mostly I hate the "it's all connected" trope(#13) where everyone is connected to their villains or their lives have been arranged without their knowledge (done with Jason and Joker more recently).  I mean, I'm usually okay with it when it's part of the origin. But when it's retconned in years or even decades later, it's often clunky, makes no sense, or ruins previous stories.

----------


## Aahz

> He's bullied at school in Batman Black/white but it's about him being a lower-class kid adopted by the richest man in Gotham and enrolled in a private school which I assume is attended by snobby rich kids.


is Batman Black/white even canon?

----------


## CPSparkles

The Robins weren't outcasts.

Jason maybe because he was homeless
Damian maybe also for a while since he was disowned by his mother and homeless on the streets of Gotham as well before the Batfamily took him in.
Dick's Romani heritage was too late an addition and the DC world has never treated him as a Romani so I can't just apply it here because i need a reason to make him an outcast. He wasn't. The Grayson's were a very popular and successful group. Yes Bruce feared that Dick was in danger of going down a dangerous path but that doesn't mean he was an outcast.
Tim was not an outcast however you look at it or however you stretch the meaning of the word outcast it doesn't apply to Tim

----------


## CPSparkles

> Everyone in Batfam has to be messed up in someway. I wouldn’t mind if it happened every now and then but it doesn’t have to be every time.


I don't feel Dick, Duke, Tim, Babs or Kate are messed up. The others sure but 5 I feel are fairly okay.

Cass and Damian were really messed up before joining the family but they've improved.

Jason has become more messed up since joining the family. meeting Bruce hasn't been a positive thing in his life.
Tim's life got messed up after he joined but Tim himself isn't messed up.

----------


## Tzigone

> Tim's life got messed up after he joined but Tim himself isn't messed up.


He definitely has been at times.  Way too Bruce-like in certain eras.

----------


## CPSparkles

> He definitely has been at times.  Way too Bruce-like in certain eras.


That's his personality nothing to do with messed up. This is the kid who stalked batman and robin. Obsessed about Robin and convinced himself that batman needs Robin. not Nightwing but Robin just so he can join the gang.

Tim isn't messed up he's just that type of person that believes he knows better and he's very detached.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> He definitely has been at times.  Way too Bruce-like in certain eras.


I miss the Tim that was guided by a sense of justice lacking tragedy

----------


## Westbats

I enjoyed the finale to _Batman: Last Knight on Earth_ this week, but I'm really confused as to why Harper Row was never referenced or appeared in the series. From the three issues, it celebrates Scott's time on other titles (_Swamp Thing_, _Justice League_), as well as the various arcs in his various Batman series (_All-Star Batman_ and _Batman Eternal_ for example). Though I know I'm in the vast minority of it, I really would have liked to have seen her in a panel while Bruce is in Gotham.

----------


## Tzigone

> That's his personality nothing to do with messed up. This is the kid who stalked batman and robin. Obsessed about Robin and convinced himself that batman needs Robin. not Nightwing but Robin just so he can join the gang.
> 
> Tim isn't messed up he's just that type of person that believes he knows better and he's very detached.


I disagree. Firstly, he did not convince himself Batman needs a Robin so he could join the gang. He set out to find Dick and to convince Dick to go back to being Robin again.  That failed. I believe, but would not swear, that Dick initially brought up the idea of Tim being Robin.  This is, of course, as it originally played out rather than anything said/retconned later.

And Tim was not detached and far less likely to think he knew best in the old days.  He had a _very_ different personality in the 1990s then in the 2005-2011 era.  I would argue that having this role, having so many around him die, having writers decided he need to change absolutely messed him up, emotionally-speaking. He used to be a good deal healthier.  Not necessarily when he first showed up (when he still wasn't detached), but definitely during the first 100 issues of his own comic.  I definitely consider him, like Bruce to have quite emotionally "messed up" in some eras.

Stalking Batman and Robin - as far as I can tell, it's heavily fanon. I started a thread on it a while back.  As far as I've been able to glean from his original appearance, he only followed Batman _after_ Jason died and he became concerned about increased violence levels.  All the other material he has seems to be newspaper and magazine clippings.

As for "Batman needs a Robin" - it gets attribute to Tim, because it's part of his origin story, but he's not the first to say it.  I've actually discussed the difference in tone and implication in it's earlier usage before.  I won't say this was the first time it was used, but it was close enough to Tim's debut to make me wonder if it was deliberate.
batman needs robin.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

> is Batman Black/white even canon?


Nope. Does it have to be?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I don't feel Dick, Duke, Tim, Babs or Kate are messed up. The others sure but 5 I feel are fairly okay.
> 
> Cass and Damian were really messed up before joining the family but they've improved.
> 
> Jason has become more messed up since joining the family. meeting Bruce hasn't been a positive thing in his life.
> Tim's life got messed up after he joined but Tim himself isn't messed up.


I don't mean all of them. It just seems certain writers want many of the characters to almost be like Bruce. It's not all the time.

----------


## Godlike13

Lazy writing. They are a bat character so they act like Batman. You see it a lot in team settings.

----------


## Aahz

> Nope. Does it have to be?


If you want to use it as an Argument for Dick being an outcast imo it should be, as non canon story it has imo much less weight than main continuity stories that show him in school.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If you want to use it as an Argument for Dick being an outcast imo it should be, as non canon story it has imo much less weight than main continuity stories that show him in school.


Oh, it's more of an FYI.

Canon wise, aside from what Tzigone already mentioned, he has no problem in New 52 high school.

----------


## Godlike13

Did Dick even go to high school in the New 52?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Did Dick even go to high school in the New 52?


Yeah. It's only in one flashback issue and lasts for a page, I think. Batman and Robin Annual #2. Bruce invited Dick because he found Damian's secret gift for Dick post mortem. Dick told the story from his Robin days that he told Damian that lead to the gift.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why can’t the Batfam other than Bruce have relationships outside their own books last? Like Dick and Kori. Is it because they might have to appear more and more in Batman comics?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Did Dick even go to high school in the New 52?


Why wouldn't he? Bruce ain't a home schooler

----------


## CPSparkles

> I disagree. Firstly, he did not convince himself Batman needs a Robin so he could join the gang. He set out to find Dick and to convince Dick to go back to being Robin again.  That failed. I believe, but would not swear, that Dick initially brought up the idea of Tim being Robin.  This is, of course, as it originally played out rather than anything said/retconned later.
> 
> And Tim was not detached and far less likely to think he knew best in the old days.  He had a _very_ different personality in the 1990s then in the 2005-2011 era.  I would argue that having this role, having so many around him die, having writers decided he need to change absolutely messed him up, emotionally-speaking. He used to be a good deal healthier.  Not necessarily when he first showed up (when he still wasn't detached), but definitely during the first 100 issues of his own comic.  I definitely consider him, like Bruce to have quite emotionally "messed up" in some eras.
> 
> Stalking Batman and Robin - as far as I can tell, it's heavily fanon. I started a thread on it a while back.  As far as I've been able to glean from his original appearance, he only followed Batman _after_ Jason died and he became concerned about increased violence levels.  All the other material he has seems to be newspaper and magazine clippings.
> 
> As for "Batman needs a Robin" - it gets attribute to Tim, because it's part of his origin story, but he's not the first to say it.  I've actually discussed the difference in tone and implication in it's earlier usage before.  I won't say this was the first time it was used, but it was close enough to Tim's debut to make me wonder if it was deliberate.
> Attachment 90574



I can't tell if this is something that has been put in deliberately but I still don't buy that Batman needs a Robin and the story's after Tim don't support that. 

Batman need a robin can only be applied to Dick because Dick is the 1st family Batman had ever since then Batman has had a reason to come home at  night he has had someone who he is responsible for. Batman did  not need Tim  Drake a random kid to be his light when he had a family so that was nonsense. that DC has since  Retconed. batman's light is family

Tim was a stalker since he had photo evidence and newspaper cuttings of the duo. It doesn't matter that he had mostly newspaper evidence he was obsessing over the duo, collecting info about them and keeping a file. That is very obsessional Batman.

Tim when he was pitching to take the Robin role. Yes he went looking for Dick but he also every quality of Robin that he listed he followed up with demonstrating how he had said skill then In tec when he was forced to elaborate on why he went to Batman and Robin he said he wanted to impressive. When asked why it couldn't be Nightwing. he said it had to be him (Tim) he was the only one who could save batman. That's manipulative batman

Tim bursting into a grieving family and telling them what they need. Forcing his way in shows how detached he is. Shows how much of that Batman arrogance he has. He storms in believing that he knows better that Bruce, Dick and Alfred. that is un able to recognise social cues and crossing boundaries Batman 


if that panel isn't deliberate then Batman really is the most busted and useless hero out. What kind of hero needs a young kid to rein him in? Suddenly Tom King's batman is overflowing with agency.


Tim has always had that sort of personality that doesn't take much to turn into the worst. And all the negative elements of it were present in his origin story.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean certain things in New 52 have changed certain things about certain characters

----------


## Godlike13

> Why wouldn't he? Bruce ain't a home schooler


He was like 18 when Bruce met him according the the new 52, and I recall he didn’t even live with him. The new 52 did some weird stuff trying to fit in all the Robins.

----------


## Tzigone

> Why can’t the Batfam other than Bruce have relationships outside their own books last? Like Dick and Kori. Is it because they might have to appear more and more in Batman comics?


I don't think Batman is as much to blame for that one - and certainly not in that way.  The great decline of NTT was a large part of it.  When NTT was the big dog, it was fine.  Then the built up reasons for a breakup.  Then had the breakup.  Then they had them get back together almost immediately. Not a fan of that decision, but I know many were.  Then a lot of bad writing followed. Still, I guess ultimate breakup did come with failed wedding and Dick being closer to the Bats.  I'd say the decline in the Titans franchise (and the rise of the Bat one) were a big part of why that happened. The idea the character of Dick Grayson would do better with Bats than Titans.  Also, though that really came later, there were the de-aging or keeping-Bruce-seeming-young efforts and a married "son" would make him seem older (and grandkids totally out of the question).

But, really, sure Dick and Kory didn't work out.  But has any other Batfam-with-outsider relationship even existed?  The other Bat-characters came after the rise of the Batman franchise, and that probably plays in. I don't think it's because the new character would need to show up more in Batfam books.  Honestly, it's more likely because Batman is such a powerhouse, sales-wise, that the other character would end up subordinate to Bat-family needs.  And even the Batfam member - the other writer (even a team-book-writer) couldn't do what they want with them because Bat-editorial would have more sway.  

That's not even just a Bat-issue.  *Shipping across "families" or even which each character has their own book doesn't really happen very often.*  No one wants someone else messing with the story they want to tell. I mean, when Dick and Kory were an item, they were both primarily Titans characters, neither being featured by different writers. When Dick and Barbara were an item, Chuck Dixon was writing both BoP and Nightwing.  Whenever Catwoman gets her own series, she gets new love interests.  Usually if Dinah and Ollie are each in their own book, they are broken up.




> Tim was a stalker since he had photo evidence and newspaper cuttings of the duo. It doesn't matter that he had mostly newspaper evidence he was obsessing over the duo, collecting info about them and keeping a file. That is very obsessional Batman.


Keeping newspaper clippings of a relatively famous person is not stalking. It's a bit obsessive, but not stalking.  More fanboy.




> Tim bursting into a grieving family and telling them what they need. Forcing his way in shows how detached he is. Shows how much of that Batman arrogance he has. He storms in believing that he knows better that Bruce, Dick and Alfred. that is un able to recognise social cues and crossing boundaries Batman


I disagree. That's the _opposite_ of detached. It's very, very emotionally-involved.   And he _didn't_ think he knew better than Dick. He thought (correctly) that Dick did not know what Batman was up to and that if he did, he would try to intervene.  




> Tim when he was pitching to take the Robin role. Yes he went looking for Dick but he also every quality of Robin that he listed he followed up with demonstrating how he had said skill then In tec when he was forced to elaborate on why he went to Batman and Robin he said he wanted to impressive. When asked why it couldn't be Nightwing. he said it had to be him (Tim) he was the only one who could save batman. That's manipulative batman


I disagree. Tim was straightforward and direct there. No game-playing, no secretly moving the pieces around.  Sure, he wanted to impress his idols.  But not to manipulate them, and I don't believe he was aiming for Robin.  The really creepy part was trying to coerce Dick to give up his identity/llife in service to the Batman and Robin duo.

And Tim was way less brooding, and less obsessed with "work" in his first 100 issues of solo series. He ate pizza and hung out with friends and went to car shows and smiled and laughed and even slept regularly.  He did not manipulate others, as a general rule, and certainly not his colleagues. 

Tim was kind of creepy when introduced, particularly in regards to want Dick to give up his life. Also, he had disturbing notions of Batman's abilities (that ties into DC victim-blaming Jason).  But when shifted over to his own series (really well before that), he was pretty awesome.  For _years_.  Then he became all emotionally detached and manipulative.  Obsession can certainly be counted as an older trait - I don't think the other two can.




> if that panel isn't deliberate then Batman really is the most busted and useless hero out. What kind of hero needs a young kid to rein him in? Suddenly Tom King's batman is overflowing with agency.


Batman has been a very busted hero many times.  In different ways.  A hero needing others to reign him in is  a very common thing. And _absolutely_ Robin - any Robin should stand up to Batman when he thinks he's wrong. It's something far too few of Batman's colleagues do. Sure, they say something occasionally. But generally, the ultimately fall in line an let him keep treating them all like dirt and stick around while he keeps doing whatever he pleases.





> Batman need a robin can only be applied to Dick because Dick is the 1st family Batman had ever since then Batman has had a reason to come home at night he has had someone who he is responsible for. Batman did not need Tim Drake a random kid to be his light when he had a family so that was nonsense. that DC has since Retconed. batman's light is family


Even that's a retcon.  He was emotionally fine back in the golden age and didn't need Dick to be there be okay. Nor did having someone at home make him take fewer risks. It was far healthier because they were together because they _wanted_ to be.  No adult should ever put that sort of burden of needing them on a child.  And, of course, in post-COIE, Alfred was family.  Not that Alfred has ever been decent at reigning Batman in (a reason I don't like him being there from the start).  And Dick could not fulfill that role for Batman at the time for two reasons - firstly, because they were mostly estranged. Dick wasn't even there to be his "light."  Secondly, and I think this ties in very much to Batman emotional-brokenness (of which I am not a fan), modern Batman cannot deal with peers.  He too often demands to be in charge and reacts poorly when challenged.  While Dick could theoretically choose to do as Tim wanted and go back to that "junior" role and so that he could fulfill that role of compatriot to Batman, it would be very destructive to Dick and a very poor choice. I think "Batman needs a Robin" in this context is very much a statement of Bruce's brokenness and his inability to deal with peers, meaning he can only have healthy relationships with those willing to take orders.  When they get older and start to challenge him, the relationships fall apart.

I'm sure you've realized, I'm not much a fan of modern Batman's personality.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. It’s better to have that never happen if it will mess up a writers story. Well the only way the ship survives is in outside media. Or if the get elsewhere stories.

----------


## Zaresh

May be relevant to the topic right now, but Artemis is coming back to RHATO, she's a Wonderfam character, and Lobdell seems to be wasting no time in adressing their blossoming relationship. They're a relatively well liked ship, so we may see how it all goes if other writers address that outside that book, if it actually ends being "something."

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Batman need a robin can only be applied to Dick because Dick is the 1st family Batman had ever since then Batman has had a reason to come home at  night he has had someone who he is responsible for. Batman did  not need Tim  Drake a random kid to be his light when he had a family so that was nonsense. that DC has since  Retconed. batman's light is family


Err, at the time, Batman had no real family.

Nightwing was a part of the Titans, and Babs was in the Suicide Squad as Oracle (and retired as Batgirl long before that).

More than that, Batman's bad behavior in the field was escalating as a result of losing Jason.

So yeah, Bruce needed someone to reign him in. Frankly, I liked Tim's intellectual approach/motivation to crimefighting vs. yet another dead parent.

----------


## Tzigone

> More than that, Batman's bad behavior in the field was escalating as a result of losing Jason.


Though I've been told (have not read era between Jason and Tim) that his violence only started escalating when they decided to create a new Robin. Meaning a problem was created for the new character to solve rather than a new character created to solve an existing problem. Then again, Jason's violence/anger ratcheted up only after they decided to kill him. 




> Frankly, I liked Tim's intellectual approach/motivation to crimefighting vs. yet another dead parent.


I'm not quite sure I'd call Tim's motivation intellectual, but I did like when he had a living dad and stepmom (mom had to go bye bye immediately).  Once he was spun off, he had to have his own supporting cast. I liked that, though. I liked him having other people in his life. I would say the relationship dynamics with Bruce were significantly different from what I saw from his earliest days to his own-title days.  I preferred his own, but I read more of that. I like him having family outside the Bats (and he closer emotionally to both Barbara and Dick and even Alfred than Bruce during a lot of the Dixon era), and having to "serve two masters" in the sense that both Bruce and Jack had expectations of him. And Jack knew nothing of Bruce's, of course, so was quite upset and worried, even angry, when his teenager disappeared for days (over a week, on at least one occasion) at a time and then would either refuse to tell him where he'd been or lie about it.  But I think that's reasonable anger.  And then Tim would lash out because Jack wasn't there so often when he was younger and _now_ he cares.  But I always did have the sense they loved each other, and it was interesting to watch them succeed sometimes and flounder others in building/maintaining that relationship.

----------


## AmiMizuno

It’s going to be interesting to see Diana with The outlaws

----------


## Fergus

> Err, at the time, Batman had no real family.
> 
> Nightwing was a part of the Titans, and Babs was in the Suicide Squad as Oracle (and retired as Batgirl long before that).
> 
> More than that, Batman's bad behavior in the field was escalating as a result of losing Jason.
> 
> So yeah, Bruce needed someone to reign him in. Frankly, I liked Tim's intellectual approach/motivation to crimefighting vs. yet another dead parent.


I left home years ago so does that mean my folks don't have a family? Going away to uni or moving out due to marriage doesn't mean that one is no longer family. 

I mean right now does that mean that Damian is Bruce's only family since he's the one who lives with him? No

And in what stories did we see Tim's presence act as a counter in the decades that Tim was Robin till Damian? What stories do we have that support this promotional line?

What stories did we see Tim reigning Batman in? Zero

I'll tell you what we had, a few stories where Tim would offended or uncaring whenever Bruce so much as brought up Jason or set off by things that reminded him of Jason.

Tim Drake I feel corrupted Robin. No longer was it to give purpose and direction to a child who needed saving but it was co opted by a kid from the surbarbs who was bored and had a Robin obsession.

Robin is an ethical and moral minefield but Bruce taking on a child that had zero connection to the lifestyle. A kid from a stable home and putting him in danger every night without his folks being aware of the set up is one of the worst things Batman has ever done.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I left home years ago so does that mean my folks don't have a family? Going away to uni or moving out due to marriage doesn't mean that one is no longer family.


That depends. Did you join another successful franchise when you left? Because otherwise, it's not really compatible 




> I mean right now does that mean that Damian is Bruce's only family since he's the one who lives with him? No


Damian moved out a while ago, actually. Just sayin'.




> And in what stories did we see Tim's presence act as a counter in the decades that Tim was Robin till Damian? What stories do we have that support this promotional line?


Well, Batman was going over the edge before Tim and straightened out after, so it looks like it worked. And Jean Paul 'firing' Tim showed that he was a moderating effect on the Bat




> I'll tell you what we had, a few stories where Tim would offended or uncaring whenever Bruce so much as brought up Jason or set off by things that reminded him of Jason.


Every Bat sidekick did the same, Tim was just the first. And Tm's trait was being emotionally balanced, so it worked.




> Tim Drake I feel corrupted Robin. No longer was it to give purpose and direction to a child who needed saving but it was co opted by a kid from the surbarbs who was bored and had a Robin obsession.
> 
> Robin is an ethical and moral minefield but Bruce taking on a child that had zero connection to the lifestyle. A kid from a stable home and putting him in danger every night without his folks being aware of the set up is one of the worst things Batman has ever done.


No, the one who corrupted it was Damien, who is allowed to treat the role as his because of his birth right. Who combines the worst traits of Jason and Dick, yet still gets to go into the field unsupervised.

Tim wasn't a rehash, he brought a sense of justice to the role that lacked personal tragedy

----------


## king81992

> I left home years ago so does that mean my folks don't have a family? Going away to uni or moving out due to marriage doesn't mean that one is no longer family. 
> 
> I mean right now does that mean that Damian is Bruce's only family since he's the one who lives with him? No
> 
> And in what stories did we see Tim's presence act as a counter in the decades that Tim was Robin till Damian? What stories do we have that support this promotional line?
> 
> What stories did we see Tim reigning Batman in? Zero
> 
> I'll tell you what we had, a few stories where Tim would offended or uncaring whenever Bruce so much as brought up Jason or set off by things that reminded him of Jason.
> ...


Tim had morality when he first started as Robin, if anything led to his corruption it was following Bruce's example and the drama that happened during Johns TT run, which derailed him and the YJ cast.

----------


## Tzigone

> I left home years ago so does that mean my folks don't have a family? Going away to uni or moving out due to marriage doesn't mean that one is no longer family.


Post-COIE, Dick moved out because Bruce fired him and then didn't speak to Bruce at all for 18 months. Didn't even know Bruce had taken in another kid.  Then, when he came back to  angrily confront Bruce, Bruce told him to leave.  Dick even gave Jason a phone number to call for when Bruce was being difficult. Then Bruce didn't even attempt to contact Dick when Jason died. And when Dick went to talk to him, Bruce punched him.  They were estranged, not just living in separate homes/cities.  Bruce was 99% responsible for this (and that's when I'm being generous towards him) in post-COIE-land. But in no way was Dick "there" to be family or "a light" to Bruce.  When Dick did try to come back to help, Bruce blew that up, too.  Dick simply could not fulfill that sort of role at the time.  As I said, I view that being because Batman wasn't willing to have to listen to anyone if it might threaten his own authority, and that was not a good thing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean maybe Dick needs another break from the Batfam again. Nothing permanent but still something long enough to show Nightwing isn’t just Batfam.

----------


## Ansa

> Damian moved out a while ago, actually. Just sayin.
> 
> No, the one who corrupted it was Damien, who is allowed to treat the role as his because of his birth right. Who combines the worst traits of Jason and Dick, yet still gets to go into the field unsupervised.
> 
> Tim wasn't a rehash, he brought a sense of justice to the role that lacked personal tragedy


Damian living with Bruce or not currently depends on the writer. Some write them as estranged, in other issues Damian is working at his father's side. Damian still being there after the two months timeskip during Detective Comics 1017 implies that Damian shows up at home more regularly again.

"Corrupting" the Robin role? That's a weird way to read that storyline. Damian got the role because Dick saw Tim as an equal and he wanted to give Damian a place in the family so he would feel more secure. Without that he couldn't have begun to help the boy. And Robin should be about helping the child, not Batman.
A lot of Damian's behaviour comes down to a deep insecurity about family, trust and love, which makes absolute sense when you consider how he was raised. If you don't understand that you don't get Damian. Damian didn't get the role because he yelled the loudest, he got the role because Dick and later Bruce wanted to help a ten year old who wanted to leave his life as an assassin behind.

Going into the field unsupervised is more Bruce's fault, don't you think?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea, it's more Bruce's fault. Dick does have his own life. I feel that the writers are also the problem. Damien's personality can get better but than it's worst off.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Damian living with Bruce or not currently depends on the writer. Some write them as estranged, in other issues Damian is working at his father's side. Damian still being there after the two months timeskip during Detective Comics 1017 implies that Damian shows up at home more regularly again.
> 
> "Corrupting" the Robin role? That's a weird way to read that storyline. Damian got the role because Dick saw Tim as an equal and he wanted to give Damian a place in the family so he would feel more secure. Without that he couldn't have begun to help the boy. And Robin should be about helping the child, not Batman.
> A lot of Damian's behaviour comes down to a deep insecurity about family, trust and love, which makes absolute sense when you consider how he was raised. If you don't understand that you don't get Damian. Damian didn't get the role because he yelled the loudest, he got the role because Dick and later Bruce wanted to help a ten year old who wanted to leave his life as an assassin behind.
> 
> Going into the field unsupervised is more Bruce's fault, don't you think?


I think corrupting is fair.

He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.

When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump  :Wink:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think corrupting is fair.
> 
> He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.
> 
> When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump


"Corrupting" is not fair. Who says passion for justice or personal trauma are the only prerequisites for becoming Robin? He does not get it because of daddy, daddy had no part to play in giving it to him. It came from Dick Grayson, the real Robin, who is Bruce's #1 heir despite not having a blood relation to him. He was given the identity by Dick in an attempt to straighten the brat out, and it worked in many ways. He didn't corrupt the identity, but it did influence him.

He's also just a more interesting alternate Robin to Dick than Tim is. They actually have contrasting personalities and a well earned closeness after working as Batman and Robin with a rough start. I don't think his death is treated as more of a big deal than Jason. After all, we've had years of tedious angst from Bruce about Jason's death whereas Damian was only dead for like a year, and Jason was long since alive again at that point.

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## king81992

> I think corrupting is fair.
> 
> He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.
> 
> When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump


If anyone 'corrupted the Robin role' it was Bruce. All of the Robins after Jason inherited more of Bruce's negative traits(Dick has some too, but his 'negative Batman like traits' have been downplayed in recent years).

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## dietrich

> I think corrupting is fair.
> 
> He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.
> 
> When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump


This is a stand taht I've seen amongst fans who like to ignore canon.

Damian before he became Robin already rejected his mother's side and was in Gotham as ahero. He was already already actively displaying his passion for Justice by endangering his life for others including saving Tim Drake.

Dick Giving Robin to Damian was doing exactly what the role was created for. Giving direction to a lost child.

Saying that personal trauma had nothing to do with Damian becoming Robin is so insane I don't even know whether you are being serious.

Your comments are more personal bias rather than what actually happened. Bruce sent Damian home, Damian went out his way to prove himself including saving a Batman then Alfred and Dick came to his rescue. That sounds very familiar to me. That sounds just like Tim Drake.

Yes Damian in Batman and Son believed Robin was his Birth right but Damian didn't become Robin in Batman and Son. Damian by the time he was working as solo hero in Gotham wasn't even trying for Robin, He was doing it because it was what he believed was right.

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## dietrich

> That depends. Did you join another successful franchise when you left? Because otherwise, it's not really compatible 
> 
> 
> 
> Damian moved out a while ago, actually. Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Batman was going over the edge before Tim and straightened out after, so it looks like it worked. And Jean Paul 'firing' Tim showed that he was a moderating effect on the Bat
> ...


The worst traits of Jason and Dick huh and none of Tim's. Figures.

----------


## dietrich

Not so controversial opinion but it's about time Robin fans stop hating on replacements.

----------


## Tzigone

> Not so controversial opinion but it's about time Robin fans stop hating on replacements.


Probably no controversy here, but I think the setup with regards to Damian replacing Tim was pretty much designed by DC in a way that couldn't help but make fans feel toxic.  Dick's original exit and the introduction of Jason was much better for not splitting fanbases.  Other splits came later for other reasons.  I feel the current writing with Selina is apt to make people who weren't already big fans dislike her and the 'ship, too. I do think when one character has things/importance taken from them (either in-universe or from a meta perspective) for the sake another, it's going to make some fans of lost-something-character feel negatively towards gained-something character, whether or not that is rational. And since DC seems too often to view Robin-hood (or other same-name-heroes) as a zero-sum game, it happens a lot that one is diminished to further another.

Also, thought I know it will never happen because of business reasons, I'm much more a fan of each hero having their own superhero identity and not inheriting them from others. I think it would cut down on intra-fandom rivalries and toxic behavior a lot.

----------


## dietrich

> Probably no controversy here, but I think the setup with regards to Damian replacing Tim was pretty much designed by DC in a way that couldn't help but make fans feel toxic.  Dick's original exit and the introduction of Jason was much better for not splitting fanbases.  Other splits came later for other reasons.  I feel the current writing with Selina is apt to make people who weren't already big fans dislike her and the 'ship, too. I do think when one character has things/importance taken from them (either in-universe or from a meta perspective) for the sake another, it's going to make some fans of lost-something-character feel negatively towards gained-something character, whether or not that is rational. And since DC seems too often to view Robin-hood (or other same-name-heroes) as a zero-sum game, it happens a lot that one is diminished to further another.
> 
> Also, thought I know it will never happen because of business reasons, I'm much more a fan of each hero having their own superhero identity and not inheriting them from others. I think it would cut down on intra-fandom rivalries and toxic behavior a lot.


And before that the way they set up Tim on victim blaming Jason. 
That doesn't mean that fans should wallow in toxicity especially when the company after faltering is making efforts to make certain replacements stand and progress. Not like Jason who's been stuck to Lobdell with editorial not making any effort to promote the character.

Actually fans can wallow if they feel like it but the truth is attacking Damian and Duke hasn't resulted in anything positive.

As a Damian fan I've made my peace that He's role is one that gets passed on. He's not Dick Grayson so he's not indispensable or irreplaceable. I can only hope that when the time come for him to be replaced that he's given the Tim Drake rather than the Jason Todd treatment/opportunities.

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## phantom1592

> The really creepy part was trying to coerce Dick to give up his identity/life in service to the Batman and Robin duo.


meh...  In my mind it's like trying to convince a musician that went 'solo' that he was better off getting the band back together. Who DIDN'T want the Beatles back together? Or Simon and Garfunkle or any of the other great duo's where one guy wanted to go solo... but separately they just didn't have the magic that they did together. 

And I always point out that 'Nightwing' could easily have just been a phase. Robin was as much his own personal identity as Nightwing was. Earth-2/Golden Age Dick Grayson rode that Robin identity long into adulthood and kept close ties with Bruce. For all we know he had a few years there where he changed his name too and then came back to Robin :P In Tim's mind he wasn't trying to regress Dick or take his identity/life... he was trying to remind Dick who he really WAS. 

Potentially misguided... but not really 'creepy'.

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## Tzigone

We'll have to disagree on that (at least until I re-read and have a different perception or found I've remembered details). He wanted Dick to permanently leave the Titans (at least not be there full time) and move cities. 

What he expected of Dick was not just go back to using the identity of Robin, but to go back to the role he had when he was younger.  Maybe he didn't get what that meant - Dick's comment about going back to being 13 should have tipped him off, but Tim was already fixated on his idea of Dick being Robin again. 

That he pressed after Dick decline was the part that bothered me.




> meh... In my mind it's like trying to convince a musician that went 'solo' that he was better off getting the band back together. Who DIDN'T want the Beatles back together? Or Simon and Garfunkle or any of the other great duo's where one guy wanted to go solo... but separately they just didn't have the magic that they did together.


Yeah, but that's all of us putting what's best for us above what's best for them. And it's an insult to Dick as Nightwing so he didn't measure up to B&R to me.  And to Jason as Robin, but that was typical for DC at the time.  

Also, it's putting the band/team above the people in it. Fine to do on a message board, but insulting to one's face.  Completely disregards any personal feelings.  He didn't seem to see Dick as an individual to me. Just as Robin and used-to-be-Robin and in terms of what he could do for Batman.

EDIT: Which is another thing: Tim kept talking about how Dick could be what Batman needed by going back to being Robin. What Dick needed didn't even figure in. Didn't seem to even cross Tim's mind.  Batman and Robin is symbol him. He wants that symbol fulfilled, he wants it to hold the meaning he thinks it should. Whether or not it's actually beneficial to Robin doesn't play in - on whether it's beneficial to Batman (and to Tim's needs).

I'm also influenced by Tim a little later (if I'm remembering correctly - been a while since I read) thinking how Bruce is different than Dick and with Bruce (Batman) here, nothing will happen to him (Tim).  Very unhealthy and inaccurate.  Very scary way for a junior hero (or any hero) to be thinking. What's worse, is I think we're maybe meant to think of it as actual Truth.  And that the reason Jason died was disobeying/being separated from Batman, and so Tim won't disobey and so it's okay for Batman to have another kid sidekick after the last one died.  But, either way, it, to me, contributes to the same inaccurate/unhealthy view of Batman that early Tim had.  Thankfully, he largely got past that soon enough.

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

Harvey Dent is a boring character post transformation, and is better off dead. The only writer to do anything interesting with him post transformation is Greg Rucka.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I feel like many people always referenced Golden Age Batman and Robin just being Robin in regards to Nightwing not able to be what it could potentially be, that it was "a phase", WITHOUT any context. The thing is, any later Bruce after GOlden Age Batman, was simply not that man. Golden Age Batman let Dick Grayson be free to be who he is' He was able to have fun and go solo, made more appearance than his Batman. Robin back then was big.  When he was being a kid and rebelious, Golden Age Bruce understood and never act fearful, bitchy or replace him IMMIDIATELY. (i know there are golden Age issues where Dick was "replaced", but that's for character moments and study, and they are 1-issue stories where the replacements couldn't messure up to Dick) Robin back then stayed Robin because he was actually respected and his own hero. 

As soon as the Silver Age rolled around, when Bill Finger stopped writing Batman altogether, Bruce started to act like a different character. Under the comic code he was sometimes abusive and emotionally incompetent to Dick. In the Bronse Age, the Bat office boasted that they brought the Golden Age Batman back, but actually they never did. They used a younger, more idealistic and less pragmatic Bruce. ("i want to eradicate ALL crime." really? ) And Dennis Oneil straight up don't know how to write Robin. Robin was 1 year into Golden Age Batman. HOW did erasing him and making Bruce act like an asshole to him "bringing the golden age Batman back?" I dont see it. Most of the people who believed that or believed early Robin really did have no personality never really read Golden Age Bill Finger comics. And those weird Jason origins didnt even bother me as much as the fact alongside it that they tried to make readers forget about the first Robin by replacing him. 

It was because of the Silver Age camp and Bronze Age underulterisation that Robin faded away. Dick was no longer secure in that mantle. It's in character that he felt like he had to make a new one for himself. Essencially, NTT Nightwing was the return of the golden Age Dick Grayson after the camp dragged him for more than a decade, and it was a real return in personality and characterization, more so than Bronse Age to Golden Age Batman like DC loved to boast to us.

----------


## Gotham citizen

Give a medal to nhienphan2808.

----------


## Sergard

> Not so controversial opinion but the Robin fandom is hella toxic and it's about time Fans stop hating on replacements


It's about time fans stop hating in general.
This also includes Damian Wayne fans hating on Tim Drake.
This year I've seen some ridiculous comments about Tim in the Damian Wayne Appreciation thread - and I've seen some ridiculous comments by Damian Wayne fans in the Tim Drake appreciation thread. I'm so tired of this stuff - and I don't even like Tim! It's the same - again and again. Everyone is angry  and is getting angrier.

Personally, I'm neither a fan of Tim nor Damian. Maybe I like Damian a little less nowadays because he's done horrible stuff that triggers me hard, but all in all I'm glad I don't have to pick sides in these childish "discussions" between Tim Drake and Damian Wayne fans.

What's the point of discussing characters when fans only emphasize the good qualities of their favorite character and exaggerate the bad qualities of the other character?

----------


## Gotham citizen

> It's about time fans stop hating in general.
> This also includes Damian Wayne fans hating on Tim Drake.
> This year I've seen some ridiculous comments about Tim in the Damian Wayne Appreciation thread - and I've seen some ridiculous comments by Damian Wayne fans in the Tim Drake appreciation thread. I'm so tired of this stuff - and I don't even like Tim! It's the same - again and again. Everyone is angry  and is getting angrier.
> 
> Personally, I'm neither a fan of Tim nor Damian. Maybe I like Damian a little less nowadays because he's done horrible stuff that triggers me hard, but all in all I'm glad I don't have to pick sides in these childish "discussions" between Tim Drake and Damian Wayne fans.
> 
> What's the point of discussing characters when fans only emphasize the good qualities of their favorite character and exaggerate the bad qualities of the other character?


Second medal of the day.

----------


## dietrich

> It's about time fans stop hating in general.
> This also includes Damian Wayne fans hating on Tim Drake.
> This year I've seen some ridiculous comments about Tim in the Damian Wayne Appreciation thread - and I've seen some ridiculous comments by Damian Wayne fans in the Tim Drake appreciation thread. I'm so tired of this stuff - and I don't even like Tim! It's the same - again and again. Everyone is angry  and is getting angrier.
> 
> Personally, I'm neither a fan of Tim nor Damian. Maybe I like Damian a little less nowadays because he's done horrible stuff that triggers me hard, but all in all I'm glad I don't have to pick sides in these childish "discussions" between Tim Drake and Damian Wayne fans.
> 
> What's the point of discussing characters when fans only emphasize the good qualities of their favorite character and exaggerate the bad qualities of the other character?


Yep and I've seen ridiculous comments about Damian [including death wishes] and other robins from Tim fans and fans of other Robins on different threads but I kept it general since it seemed counter productive to the whole lets stop the Toxicity New year point I was trying to get acrosss and stop hating replacements [I say replacements since Dick Grayson fans are the only ones that seem not to engage in this]

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yep and I've seen ridiculous comments about Damian [including death wishes] and other robins from Tim fans and fans of other Robins on different threads but I kept it general since it seemed counter productive to the whole lets stop the Toxicity New year point I was trying to get acrosss and stop hating replacements [I say replacements since Dick Grayson fans are the only ones that seem not to engage in this]


Dick Grayson fans are too busy getting angry at DC ^^

----------


## Sergard

> Yep and I've seen ridiculous comments about Damian [including death wishes] and other robins from Tim fans and fans of other Robins on different threads but I kept it general since it seemed counter productive to the whole lets stop the Toxicity New year point I was trying to get acrosss and stop hating replacements [I say replacements since Dick Grayson fans are the only ones that seem not to engage in this]


"hating replacements" makes it sound like Damian Wayne fans are the only ones not hating on another character because Damian has no replacement - and that contradicts reality.
The worst hate comments I've personally encountered, came from Damian Wayne or Dick Grayson fans, including death wishes towards Tim and Jason (or other characters ... or real people in Dick's case).
But that's my own subjective observation. Obviously, I rather notice it when someone hates on a character I like than on a character I don't like - and I don't read every thread.
There isn't one fan group that hates "less" or "more" than the others, that's what I'm certain of.

It would be a good first step if fans were to reflect a little more on themselves before they write a comment about a character they obviously don't like or even hate and asked themselves if it's really necessary to post a certain comment, especially if it could potentially make things escalate.

Fans should also reflect a little more on their favorite character. No character is perfect. Not Dick, not Tim, not Jason, not Damian - not any other character in the DC universe. Every character has flaws, bad qualities, has done bad stuff that can offend others or has stories that are interpreted differently by others. So it's okay when people don't like a character. It's okay to not like Dick. It's okay to not like Jason. It's okay to not like Tim. It's okay to not like Damian. Not liking a character is not "bad taste", it's not "not getting the character", it's not any other defensive or even sometimes insulting "counterargument". It's just plain and simple personal preference.

Fans don't have to defend their favorite characters all the time. If I'd always start a discussion when someone hates on Jason ... well, I'd spend a lot of hours in this forum attacking others and being attacked by others. I know from myself that I quickly react emotionally. So when I realize that a comment makes me angry, I don't respond (well, I try - sometimes it's just too much).

From my own experience I can say that ignoring haters is not the best solution but the most effective because some people never change even if you tell them that their behavior is childish and hurtful.

----------


## Zaresh

I subscribe to *@Sergard*, full text.
I want to nominate him for that medal, too.

I remember leaving Dick's threads and Tim's threads for a while because haters and general bad mood (I don't visit Damian's enough to notice hateful comments regularly). It's why I'm not happy with that behaviour in our thread and actively discourage it. Also, because I know my own temper and, unfortunately, I'm not that good at keeping it at bay; it wouldn't be the first time I find myself regretting posting something. I like all the Robins, even if Jason is my favourite. I also have some characters I positively dislike, and I usually don't like to comment on them because I don't want others to feel, for a better word, "wrong" for liking what they like. It's fiction, it doesn't hurt; it shouldn't hurt.

Btw, we're in need of someone with a good grasp of English grammar in our Jason Thread. If anyone wants to lend us a hand, he will be welcomed, I think :3.

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick Grayson fans are too busy getting angry at DC ^^


I pick on other characters all the time. It helps vent my anger  :Cool:

----------


## TheRay

> So the Robins are not since they're more liked than Batman.


Being popular by people who don't even know who you are does not disqualify you from being an outcast.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Yep and I've seen ridiculous comments about Damian [including death wishes] and other robins from Tim fans and fans of other Robins on different threads but I kept it general since it seemed counter productive to the whole lets stop the Toxicity New year point I was trying to get acrosss and stop hating replacements [I say replacements since Dick Grayson fans are the only ones that seem not to engage in this]


Maybe not on this forum, but most of the hate comments I've read about Jason (that he should have stayed dead or "I paid to have him killed", he's a failure, he stole Dick's friends, he's a whiner, etc) come from Nightwing fans, especially certain ones on Youtube. It's hard not to lash back, just let people enjoy their favorite Robins!

----------


## dietrich

> "hating replacements" makes it sound like Damian Wayne fans are the only ones not hating on another character because Damian has no replacement - and that contradicts reality.
> The worst hate comments I've personally encountered, came from Damian Wayne or Dick Grayson fans, including death wishes towards Tim and Jason (or other characters ... or real people in Dick's case).
> But that's my own subjective observation. Obviously, I rather notice it when someone hates on a character I like than on a character I don't like - and I don't read every thread.
> There isn't one fan group that hates "less" or "more" than the others, that's what I'm certain of.
> 
> It would be a good first step if fans were to reflect a little more on themselves before they write a comment about a character they obviously don't like or even hate and asked themselves if it's really necessary to post a certain comment, especially if it could potentially make things escalate.
> 
> Fans should also reflect a little more on their favorite character. No character is perfect. Not Dick, not Tim, not Jason, not Damian - not any other character in the DC universe. Every character has flaws, bad qualities, has done bad stuff that can offend others or has stories that are interpreted differently by others. So it's okay when people don't like a character. It's okay to not like Dick. It's okay to not like Jason. It's okay to not like Tim. It's okay to not like Damian. Not liking a character is not "bad taste", it's not "not getting the character", it's not any other defensive or even sometimes insulting "counterargument". It's just plain and simple personal preference.
> 
> ...


No Damian fans are included since some damian fans were hostile to Duke on this site. I meant fans of the OG robin myself included who at times are make comments that make it clear that their opinions are influenced by fandom politics wars like usurped positions etc.

----------


## Sergard

> No Damian fans are included since some damian fans were hostile to Duke on this site. I meant fans of the OG robin myself included who at times are make comments that make it clear that their opinions are influenced by fandom politics wars like usurped positions etc.


I don't understand what you mean. What kind of comments?  Can you give examples?

----------


## dietrich

> I don't understand what you mean. What kind of comments?  Can you give examples?


Fans blaming Duke for the lack of Damian in the Batbooks despite the writer giving a logical reason and using Damian in other series when he got older and he didn't have to endanger him. 

Calling for a characters [new/replacement Duke and damian] death repeatedly because of some believe that they are the reason why our fav is neglected ignoring  facts like a new character [ All new characters] need some push to get off the ground or that the role is one that's passed from character to character.
This is heading further down the track I was hoping to avoid so I'm bailing. Some much for generalisation.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I've accepted Ric Grayson. I got my Nightwing stories and it seems like Dick will never be back and if he comes back, it'll be with the Ric mindset.

I'm so meh to it just like I was with "Red Robin but never Robin", "Kon-El the clone of Jon Kent", and Bar Tor.

I'm sure that was the whole point of the Ric story tho.

Also, yeah the whole Damian/Tim fan fight is ridiculous. They don't even fight in the comics anymore. At this point its just fans protecting their insecurities over their favorite Robin.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Being popular by people who don't even know who you do not disqualify you from being an outcast.


So who outcasts them if the general public doesn't?

----------


## CPSparkles

> Fans blaming Duke for the lack of Damian in the Batbooks despite the writer giving a logical reason and using Damian in other series when he got older and he didn't have to endanger him. 
> 
> Calling for a characters [new/replacement Duke and damian] death repeatedly because of some believe that they are the reason why our fav is neglected ignoring  facts like a new character [ All new characters] need some push to get off the ground or that the role is one that's passed from character to character.
> This is heading further down the track I was hoping to avoid so I'm bailing. Some much for generalisation.


What!? Some fans [some Damian's] didn't like Duke at first but I don't recall any wishing him death or even a large number commenting outside of the whole Synder not using Damian. 

I do recall fans [not Damian's] starting threads asking the same question. what's the point of Duke? How do you feel about Duke? that quickly turned into hate threads. similar threads about Damian were also popular.


The 1st Duke Thomas Appreciation thread here was started by a couple of not Damian Robin fans as a mockperciation thread. Making fun and mocking the character. This was later re-purposed and turned into an actual appreciation thread. 

To claim Duke hate was from Damian fans isn't correct at all. Those Rebirth threads are still right here. It's easy to fact check.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I've accepted Ric Grayson. I got my Nightwing stories and it seems like Dick will never be back and if he comes back, it'll be with the Ric mindset.
> 
> I'm so meh to it just like I was with "Red Robin but never Robin", "Kon-El the clone of Jon Kent", and Bar Tor.
> 
> I'm sure that was the whole point of the Ric story tho.
> 
> Also, yeah the whole Damian/Tim fan fight is ridiculous. They don't even fight in the comics anymore. At this point its just fans protecting their insecurities over their favorite Robin.


The thing is those insecurities or defending a favourite aren't specific to Robins but fans in general. It's a reality of all fandoms. 

What even is the Ric mindset? Reject his hero past but works helping out randoms hero wanna be's? I'm not spending money on that comic so I'm behind.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> The thing is those insecurities or defending a favourite aren't specific to Robins but fans in general. It's a reality of all fandoms. 
> 
> What even is the Ric mindset? Reject his hero past but works helping out randoms hero wanna be's? I'm not spending money on that comic so I'm behind.


You're right haha, that's fandoms in general. I just feel like the Robins have been one of the more senseless ones I've seen in comics.

For me, the Ric mindset is that despite still having the trauma of losing his parents, he didn't retain any of the strong feelings of justice he had that made him Robin. He remembers only up to their death, so I'm sure the feelings should be raw as well. But he doesn't have those feelings and views being a superhero as a chore he didn't ask for. Even after he "supposedly" accepted the superhero role in the end of the first Ric arc. It's that situation in where if he sees a capable superhero(not the fake NWs), he would prob not try to contribute and help them and just be a civilian.

It's a worse version of Dick Grayson in the beginning of Titans S01.

----------


## CPSparkles

> You're right haha, that's fandoms in general. I just feel like the Robins have been one of the more senseless ones I've seen in comics.
> 
> For me, the Ric mindset is that despite still having the trauma of losing his parents, he didn't retain any of the strong feelings of justice he had that made him Robin. He remembers only up to their death, so I'm sure the feelings should be raw as well. But he doesn't have those feelings and views being a superhero as a chore he didn't ask for. Even after he "supposedly" accepted the superhero role in the end of the first Ric arc. It's that situation in where if he sees a capable superhero(not the fake NWs), he would prob not try to contribute and help them and just be a civilian.
> 
> It's a worse version of Dick Grayson in the beginning of Titans S01.


And zero agency or conviction in both options. He just reacts to the based on external influences. That I think is what i hate most about this phase [I still refuse to accept it]

I thought the Talon arc was supposed to lead to his rediscovering himself.

I know Outside media doesn't automatically lead to comics but it's odd to me how many Main Character of current shows are missing or in could be better comics. Batwoman, Dick, Titans, Green Arrow. DC could do better especially on a title like Nightwing where the problem isn't sales or end of run like #50 with GA

On the Fandom topic even the antagonisms come and go.  I hesitate to jump on a soapbox though since I know I've made snide comments or lashed out so would be hypocritical

----------


## Agent Z

A lot of Dick Grayson fans have a shallow, idealized head canon of the character that has very little in common with the comic version. 

Batman is mostly a perfect father in fanfiction.

----------


## Zaresh

> A lot of Dick Grayson fans have a shallow, idealized head canon of the character that has very little in common with the comic version. 
> 
> Batman is mostly a perfect father in fanfiction.


Depends on the writer, to be honest. I know of a few fics that have made justice to Dick's full character, and not few fics picture Bruce the polar oposite of what a good parent is.

I know it's "popular", to some degree, to dismiss fanfiction; but there are some talented people out there that do make a good job when they write known characters.

----------


## Agent Z

> Depends on the writer, to be honest. I know of a few fics that have made justice to Dick's full character, and not few fics picture Bruce the polar oposite of what a good parent is.
> 
> I know it's "popular", to some degree, to dismiss fanfiction; but there are some talented people out there that do make a good job when they write known characters.


I'm not dismissing fanfiction at all. I've read and enjoyed plenty of fanfics myself. 

My issue was with how certain fanfics and head canons portray Bruce and Dick.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm not dismissing fanfiction at all. I've read and enjoyed plenty of fanfics myself. 
> 
> My issue was with how certain fanfics and head canons portray Bruce and Dick.


Oh, ok, I understand.

----------


## Agent Z

> Oh, ok, I understand.


No worries.

----------


## Restingvoice

Following medieval knighthood law, I want any and all Robin to stay out of the field until training is over and they're old enough

Starting at 8 years old, their task as Page is to help around the manor and cave and assist Alfred on his duty
Once they hit 13, proper training for these Squires can begin in the cave. Martial arts, investigation, problem-solving, and various equipment.      
Up until this point, if there's an emergency, Alfred will be the one driving to the field, while Robins stay in the cave and take over Command Center. 
They can begin knighthood at age 15, the first time they're allowed out in the field, but only to assist and not jump in, except in the case of emergency. 
At 18, there's graduation, and they become equal partners.  

That's all well and good, but then there's their personality.

Tim, Duke, and Steph will have no problem following these orders because they know their limits and eager to please. When they're solo though, they're not Bruce's responsibility, and each of their parents is unavailable, so if they wanna go off on their own, it's no one's responsibility but their own. 

Damian will follow orders because he pretty much worships his dad and he can be intimidated to do so, but he has a much shorter fuse and larger pride. As long as Talia, Alfred, Dick or Tim aren't involved I guess he'll be fine, but even if he goes to the field, it will lead to his death anyway just as the story went.

Jason, despite the initial meeting, is so thankful to have proper home and education he'll obey, at least until he found out about his dad and Two-Face while on Command Center duty, and later, the rapist protected by Diplomatic Immunity. Though if we're keeping A Death in The Family, his understandable disobedience will lead to the foregone conclusion anyway.

Dick... disobeys Bruce from day one and he has revenge thirst on Zucco. Barring straitjackets, I can see no way of keeping him off the field at least until Zucco's dead and in prison since we're talking about an 8-year-old at the youngest who can scale down a third-floor window. Even after that's done, his thirst for excitement, adventure and performance will be a problem, especially if he's allowed to wear a costume when hunting Zucco. Maybe the Two-Face trauma is necessary to keep him off-field, I don't know. This is before he meets the other kid sidekicks, which is another temptation, but at the very least, Wally and Donna can protect him.

The Costume
Bulletproof vests and cowl are a must, also pants. I just don't know what it will look like. Red Robin? 
The color is Tim's costume. Red and Black.

Anyway, as a father, a CEO, and a superhero, that's as much as Bruce can do barring retiring completely to take care of them, and we know he won't retire.

----------


## Gotham citizen

92 minutes of applauses for Restingvoice!




I like the idea the Robins should be for Batman what a squire was for a knight: it justifies their young age, preserves their role of Batman's assistant and solve the atavistic issues of Robin: a thirteen years old boy can't have the strength (both physical than mental) and the stamina to fight against criminals, but if Robin is meant to be the Batman's squire, then he shouldn't fight (if everything works like it should) and so his youth is no more an issue. This also fit with an idea the movie Dark Knight Rises gave to me: most of the Wayne Manor should be an orphanage/instituite for poor children (the Thomas & Martha Wayne Institute for Children); except an apartment where Bruce lives with Alfred and (if need be) also Alfred's daughter Julia in the role of housemaid. In this way Bruce can easily oversee the education of the guests of the Institute every day and if he found a child with the right attitude, he can (discretely) trial him to see if he can became a Robin.
Unfortunately it is a dangerous idea, because in this way a bad writer would give the idea Bruce Wayne is a fanatic who see the Institute like a recruiting office, while on the contrary in my idea he doesn't want use the T&M Institute in that way, but to help some poor children and the recruitment of the Robins should be aimed to rise, because after all Bruce hopes a future where Gotham doesn't need Batman; at least this is my humble opinion.

P.S. This idea of the T. & M. Wayne Institute solves another atavistic Batman's issue: how can Alfred manage the entire Wayne Mansion alone?

P.P.S. About the costumes: they could be red and black for Tim Drake (alias Red Robin) and green and black for Damian (alias Green Robin).

----------


## Tzigone

Eh, for me that defeats the entire purpose of Robin - kid adventurer who can kick adult butt. Unrealistic - certainly. But fun.  

Also, I like someone in the field with Batman. I enjoy the stories more that way

I also sort of miss the idea of heroes that readers could wish they were - in the old sense of comics - and kid heroes are nice for that, too. Not that kids can't put themselves in the place of a adult heroes, but still, one their own age is cool.

----------


## Zaresh

> Following medieval knighthood law, I want any and all Robin to stay out of the field until training is over and they're old enough
> 
> [...]


This is awesome and I wish it were like this if we were to write a new DCU from scratch. Throw in Orders for fun, and a few more medieval elements.

The children could still kick ass, but not big bad, big guys or assassin's asses. Not in a regular basis, putting them in grave peril. Which is really unrealistic, not just a bit, and hightly reckless for an adult to allow.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Eh, for me that defeats the entire purpose of Robin - kid adventurer who can kick adult butt. Unrealistic - certainly. But fun.  
> 
> Also, I like someone in the field with Batman. I enjoy the stories more that way
> 
> I also sort of miss the idea of heroes that readers could wish they were - in the old sense of comics - and kid heroes are nice for that, too. Not that kids can't put themselves in the place of a adult heroes, but still, one their own age is cool.


Usually, I agree, but the main comic has established itself as a chaotic take-all world where they want the brand, the fanservice, the darkness, the realism, the tragedy, and wacky comic book stuff. I can't do that. I can't read Batman realistically grieving while at the same scene the Robins make fun of their own deaths, and after multiple deaths still train more kids, still being neglectful (I mean literally forgetting their birthdays and hang out more with sentient starfish and Catwoman than the kids).

So if fans want all or most of the story, a good Batman, a Jason who died and resurrected as Red Hood, a trained assassin kid, then this is the best I can think of. 

Though I haven't thought about the Teen Titans part so this idea still may change. 

The Robin wish-fulfillment adventures will be in the kids line. They're not supposed to die anyway if it's aimed at kids.

----------


## dietrich

Robin is a concept I struggle with. Most of fav characters are/were Robins but I don't actually agree with the idea of Batman taking kids into the field esp his kids. It just doesn't feel like something a caring father would do. Esp after losing one.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Robin is a concept I struggle with. Most of fav characters are/were Robins but I don't actually agree with the idea of Batman taking kids into the field esp his kids. It just doesn't feel like something a caring father would do. Esp after losing one.


This is why I really only like Dick and Damian. Jason makes things too real and adds way too much angst baggage, and him taking on someone else's kid as a partner without the parent's consent is gross and creepy and why I don't like Tims story

----------


## lemonpeace

Due to their powers, Cassandra Cain, Jason Todd, and Duke Thomas should be the top 3 most dangerous Bat-Members

----------


## Agent Z

> Due to their powers, Cassandra Cain, Jason Todd, and Duke Thomas should be the top 3 most dangerous Bat-Members


What powers does Jason have?

----------


## Robanker

> What powers does Jason have?


Being a sidekick who ages Batman that somehow doesn't have editorial clamoring for his death is a pretty good one...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Being a sidekick who ages Batman that somehow doesn't have editorial clamoring for his death is a pretty good one...


Jason and Tim age Bruce more than Dick ever has.
It makes no sense that he's the one with a target on his back, if there needs to be anyone at all.

----------


## Agent Z

> Being a sidekick who ages Batman that somehow doesn't have editorial clamoring for his death is a pretty good one...


Well they already killed him once. They even almost gave him AIDS just to show you how tasteless they were.

----------


## Sergard

> What powers does Jason have?


He has the All-Blades.
And he was trained by the All-Caste, an ancient group of warrior monks hidden in the Himalayan mountains that have been around for thousands of years, in assassination techniques and martial arts. It's a very nice concept, especially since it's one of the few that shows a more classic version of martial arts, i.e. it isn't solely focused on learning movements but also has some "spiritual" element.

----------


## Caivu

> He has the All-Blades.
> And he was trained by the All-Caste, an ancient group of warrior monks hidden in the Himalayan mountains that have been around for thousands of years, in assassination techniques and martial arts. It's a very nice concept, especially since it's one of the few that shows a more classic version of martial arts, i.e. it isn't solely focused on learning movements but also has some "spiritual" element.


Neither of those are powers.

----------


## Zaresh

> Neither of those are powers.


Cassandra doesn't have powers either, technically, I think.
I guess @Sergard came from there with the blades because of that.
I would argue that with that in mind, Dick too sometimes seems to display some really preternatural abilities and strength. But comics are like that.

----------


## Restingvoice

Damian can move his liver a little bit to the left to avoid stabbing and Dick is so handsome he made a female gangster tripped off her bike when he revealed his face

I am never gonna let that go, Seeley XD

----------


## Sergard

> This is why I really only like Dick and Damian. Jason makes things too real and adds way too much angst baggage, and him taking on someone else's kid as a partner without the parent's consent is gross and creepy and why I don't like Tims story


I'm the opposite. I need some sort of realness and I like characters I can take seriously.
I can't take Dick or Damian seriously - and I tried. Didn't work.

----------


## kaimaciel

Here's something that might be considered controversial: I really dislike how artists make Jason look whenever he shows up with Dick in the same comic. I get it that Dick is the pretty one and that he's lean, but they keep drawing Jason uglier and super buff which, I know how his stats claim he's around Bruce's height and weight, but when you compare Bruce and Jason in other comics, Jason is visibly smaller and leaner, especially in the Red Hood comics, so it's a bit jarring to see him suddenly so different just because he shows up next to Dick.

Fan artists can easily draw them both and still make them different, so I don't see why professionals don't. 

Oh! And I liked the white streak, again, plenty of fan artists can draw Jason with a white streak and not make him look old.

----------


## Tzigone

> Here's something that might be considered controversial: I really dislike how artists make Jason look whenever he shows up with Dick in the same comic. I get it that Dick is the pretty one and that he's lean, but they keep drawing Jason uglier and super buff which, I know how his stats claim he's around Bruce's height and weight, but when you compare Bruce and Jason in other comics, Jason is visibly smaller and leaner, especially in the Red Hood comics, so it's a bit jarring to see him suddenly so different just because he shows up next to Dick.
> 
> Fan artists can easily draw them both and still make them different, so I don't see why professionals don't. 
> 
> Oh! And I liked the white streak, again, plenty of fan artists can draw Jason with a white streak and not make him look old.


I'd actually say that Jason should be buffer than Bruce and am more annoyed at him being smaller in other comics (I disagree with the notion that Bruce must be biggest and also think he's just too dang big sometimes). I've definitely seen outright scrawny Jason, but that's not my preference.  The ugly thing is an issue, but then to me they've all varied a lot in looks.  Not a fan of Tim shrinking when around other Bats, either (boy was that common in the '90s and early '00s - he'd suddenly look 11 when in some other comics).  Consistent sizing for everyone would be great. I think kids especially get hit on that one, too.

There does seem to be a certain segment of the fanbase that wants all the "boys" (some of these are grown men) to be tiny, and I don't like that. Frankly, I often see it used as part of a larger infantilizing effort, where emotional maturity and professional capability is lessened, and they all stay with Bruce and he takes care of them (or neglects them while they wish he'd take care of them).

I particularly dislike "hierarchical" art for them, be it professional or fanart - you know, where each (former) Robin is smaller and/or leaner than his elder, with all smaller than Batman.

I like the whitestreak just for differentiation, even if there's not that strong a logical basis for it. All their features and builds change with every artist, and most have the same coloring, and without reading the dialog, it can be difficult to tell it you're looking at Bruce/Dick/Jason (even Jean Paul or very occasionally Tim depending on era).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'm the opposite. I need some sort of realness and I like characters I can take seriously.
> I can't take Dick or Damian seriously - and I tried. Didn't work.


Dick and Damian can be plenty serious, especially Dick. They are also fantastical characters in a fantasy setting, but that doesn't mean they can't have realistic or nuanced aspects of their characters. 

The Robin concept is a holdover from a less realistic age. The kid sidekick thing doesn't work realistically and can end very badly, but Robin is so entrenched in the Bat-mythos that you can't remove it. And as long as the tone never gets more serious than it was in the Bronze age, it can work. That's why I like Dick being the only Robin that against all odds worked out, and if we have to have a second one, Damian's the best because he comes from such an OTT and dark background that him becoming Robin is the saner alternative. But Jason getting killed makes Bruce look extremely bad, and worse he lets another 13 year old convince this grown ass man that he needs to have a kid helping him fight crime. It's a bad look and kills the fantasy in a way it can't fully recover from, but DC tried it anyway because it's all about the almighty brands and $$.

So if you want to keep having kid sidekicks and maintain the fantasy and fun tone, don't kill them. If you kill one and reality sets in, that should put an instant end to the trend because you can't continue and have your main heroes look good. So Jason's situation brings some realness but is also very unrealistic. Because you can do one or the other, but absolutely can't do both.

----------


## Sergard

> Dick and Damian can be plenty serious, especially Dick. They are also fantastical characters in a fantasy setting, but that doesn't mean they can't have realistic or nuanced aspects of their characters. 
> 
> The Robin concept is a holdover from a less realistic age. The kid sidekick thing doesn't work realistically and can end very badly, but Robin is so entrenched in the Bat-mythos that you can't remove it. And as long as the tone never gets more serious than it was in the Bronze age, it can work. That's why I like Dick being the only Robin that against all odds worked out, and if we have to have a second one, Damian's the best because he comes from such an OTT and dark background that him becoming Robin is the saner alternative. But Jason getting killed makes Bruce look extremely bad, and worse he lets another 13 year old convince this grown ass man that he needs to have a kid helping him fight crime. It's a bad look and kills the fantasy in a way it can't fully recover from, but DC tried it anyway because it's all about the almighty brands and $$.
> 
> So if you want to keep having kid sidekicks and maintain the fantasy and fun tone, don't kill them. If you kill one and reality sets in, that should put an instant end to the trend because you can't continue and have your main heroes look good. So Jason's situation brings some realness but is also very unrealistic. Because you can do one or the other, but absolutely can't do both.


We'll have to agree to disagree on basically everything you wrote.
My first answer draft was longer and more detailed but at the end I noticed that it would only lead to a useless fan discussion about personal character and story preferences.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> We'll have to agree to disagree on basically everything you wrote.
> My first answer draft was longer and more detailed but at the end I noticed that it would only lead to a useless fan discussion about personal character and story preferences.


That's fine. I know I'm in the minority opinion on this board as far as Jason and Tim are concerned and my own biases are in play.

But personal and story preferences are basically all these fan discussions are anyway lol.

----------


## Godlike13

Doesnt Jason pull magic swords out of thin air? Not that I have preference for realness one way or the other, but Jasons story has become the most ridiculous out of all of them has it not?

----------


## Zaresh

> Doesn’t Jason pull magic swords out of thin air? Not that I have preference for realness one way or the other, but Jason’s story has become the most ridiculous out of all of them has it not?


You have a problem with some magic swords, in the DCU?

What about magical water pools that heal all illness and can even bring back the dead to life?
Or intergalactic multiverse hopping in some dimensional apocalypse.
Edit: or Batman travelling across time from eons before because some god pushed him down there.
Or some trained mute assassin who can read people's movements as if they were their minds. Because her very special training and lineage.

The whole Batman franchise if full of these ridiculousnesses. I don't have any problem with Jason embracing his more pulp soul, something Batman forgot long ago. Because the all-caste are that: a pulp story at its core, with some mystics and magics and action and adventure, mixed with its hardboiled vigilante heart. Edit: and this take hasn't even been a first for Lobdell. You can argue that Countdown was already playing some pulp tropes, which is fair, because they were the Challengers, or meant to be.

Edit: I mean, I get why some people dislike the idea. But it's not even a ridiculous one, given some of the stuff that you get to read in the superheroes of the DCU nowadays. Look at Metal, for example. Or some of Morrison's stories. They take the hero genre to its limits.

----------


## Sergard

I love Jason's swords - I love the whole All-Caste aspect. But I'm also a sucker for stories like that.

@Godlike13: The swords and the ability to manifest them were given to Jason. Jason wasn't born with any magical powers and he still has none. Maybe that's confusing you.
It's not any different from receiving a Lantern ring or Wonder Woman granting someone the power to use her lasso. Owning a magical weapon doesn't turn the owner into a magician.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> @Godlike13: The swords and the ability to manifest them were given to Jason. Jason wasn't born with any magical powers and he still has none. Maybe that's confusing you.
> It's not any different from receiving a Lantern ring or Wonder Woman granting someone the power to use her lasso. Owning a magical weapon doesn't turn the owner into a magician.


But that also doesn't make him any more real or serious than the other Robins. He's just as unrealistic as them.

I think it's the story of his death (which could be any sidekick) that's uncomfortably real and had a negative impact on the mythos surrounding it.

----------


## lemonpeace

> I love Jason's swords - I love the whole All-Caste aspect. But I'm also a sucker for stories like that.
> 
> @Godlike13: The swords and the ability to manifest them were given to Jason. Jason wasn't born with any magical powers and he still has none. Maybe that's confusing you.
> It's not any different from receiving a Lantern ring or Wonder Woman granting someone the power to use her lasso. Owning a magical weapon doesn't turn the owner into a magician.


the initial bronze All-Blades were physically given items but the current ones he wields are something he achieved. He can manifest them from his soul, that's a magical ability. Does that make him a magician or a mage or a sorcerer? not even remotely, but yanking swords from your soul is straight up a supernatural skill. it's more like John Stewart BEING a power ring than someone receiving a power ring.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Cass should be shelved if DC still ignores their Batgirl history post DDC. Bendis has brought up Steph referencing herself as Batgirl in YJ but it seems like Cass doesn’t get too much development unless it involves her mother.

----------


## Godlike13

> You have a problem with some magic swords, in the DCU?
> 
> What about magical water pools that heal all illness and can even bring back the dead to life?
> Or intergalactic multiverse hopping in some dimensional apocalypse.
> Edit: or Batman travelling across time from eons before because some god pushed him down there.
> Or some trained mute assassin who can read people's movements as if they were their minds. Because her very special training and lineage.
> 
> The whole Batman franchise if full of these ridiculousnesses. I don't have any problem with Jason embracing his more pulp soul, something Batman forgot long ago. Because the all-caste are that: a pulp story at its core, with some mystics and magics and action and adventure, mixed with its hardboiled vigilante heart. Edit: and this take hasn't even been a first for Lobdell. You can argue that Countdown was already playing some pulp tropes, which is fair, because they were the Challengers, or meant to be.
> 
> Edit: I mean, I get why some people dislike the idea. But it's not even a ridiculous one, given some of the stuff that you get to read in the superheroes of the DCU nowadays. Look at Metal, for example. Or some of Morrison's stories. They take the hero genre to its limits.


I have no issue with realness in comics one way or the other, as I said. I wasn’t the one saying I need ‘realness’. I was just pointing out the disparity there.

----------


## Zaresh

> I have no issue with realness in comics one way or the other, as I said. I wasn’t the one saying I need ‘realness’. I was just pointing out the disparity there.


Yeah, but saying that it's the most ridiculous isn't fair, I think. I mean, Cassandra's story is as wild as Jason's. Or Damian's.

Dick's, Tim's, Steph's, Bruce's, Kate's and Barbara's are pretty normal.

Edit: the only non "vanilla" parts in Jason's story and background in the current canon are, that he didn't stay dead (and that's still a mystery. Yep: he wasn't resurrected by a pit), and that he had trained with some mystical clan or magic and become what's an average mystic knight (you have Moon Knight or Iron Fist in Marvel, for example. Edit again: I'm trying to think of some in the DC, but I'm a Marvel long time reader and those are the ones that I remember better, sorry. Maybe Blue Beetle could fit, if you go the magic route with Jaime. Some of the Golden Age heroes, too). An average hero background, except for coming back from the death. Comprare that with Damian's and Cass' story and background.

I mean, in my opinion, at least.
(I don't mean to argue, just in case)

----------


## Sergard

> But that also doesn't make him any more real or serious than the other Robins. He's just as unrealistic as them.
> 
> I think it's the story of his death (which could be any sidekick) that's uncomfortably real and had a negative impact on the mythos surrounding it.


I think there is a misunderstanding.
I wrote that I need some sort of realness and that I can't take Dick or Damian seriously.

The first point doesn't mean that the DC universe should be a copy of our world. There are aliens, magic and meta-humans in the DC universe. Those are the reality and physical laws that DC has decided for. So within the DC universe it's realistic that someone is granted powers by a Lantern ring, has a magical lasso or in Jason's case magical swords. The sort of realness I need/crave is more of an emotional kind and is rooted in a character's personality, how bad and good qualities are balanced, how they interact with others and how others interact with them and that they have to experience good and bad moments in their life. I love characters - even if it sounds sappy - who can touch my heart and who make me root for them that they continue their adventures, reach their goals and find happiness. That's the sort of realness I want to see and feel. Dick or Damian - and some other DC characters - can't convey these feelings to me. It's a 100% personal perception.

When I say that I can't take Dick or Damian seriously, this doesn't mean that Dick or Damian don't have serious or good moments. It means that I've experienced too many aspects of their characters that are unappealing to me. 

These aspects can be part of their personality, backstory, the way they act in certain situations, how they treat other people, how they are treated by different writers, how other characters or even franchises are (mis)treated by those writers in order to push them as main characters - it even can be the fanbases that can make a character unappealing to me because they are - for my taste - sometimes too biased or too hateful towards other characters. Fanbases can be too demanding/too hypocritical, they can over-exaggerate good qualities of their favorite character and over-exaggerate bad qualities of other characters to make their favorite character look better. There can be too much fraction within a fanbase itself because fans want different things for their favorite character, etc.

And as already said, everything comes down to personal preference. Something I detest about a character can be celebrated by another person. That's why I decided to not give specific examples for Dick and Damian. There are enough people who have Dick or Damian as their favorite character or as one of their favorite characters. This forum is full of such fans - and I'm sure that those people love Dick and Damian as passionately as I love Jason or someone else loves Tim, etc. There is not a single character in the DC universe that's objectively the "best" character and "deserves" more love/popularity than an other. I also know that there are enough people who for example like Dick and Tim but don't like Damian and Jason. There are people who like Dick and Jason but aren't into Tim and Damian. There are Damian fans who only like Damian but appreciate Dick as Damian's second father figure, etc. One can choose a random selection of Robins and there'll be fans who exactly like those Robins only. No fan is "more right" loving certain characters than an other fan loving different characters.

And personally, I don't care for any "mythos". In my eyes, there is not just one universal meaning behind "Batman" or "Robin". Batman and Robin have changed over the decades and every Robin has brought their own interpretation to the table. It's up to readers to choose the interpretation that appeals to them the most. Some see Robin as a mantle for "lost" kids who need guidance, others see Robin as the "light" in Batman's life. Others see Robin as a story element to create adventures starring kid sidekicks. Some readers prefer fun and light stories, others enjoy some darkness and angst here and there, some want over-the top-fighting skills, etc.

----------


## redmax99

I like tim, tam. I think ric grayson story is ok because i like bea and ric togather and i think talia,jason hook up was hot. There i said it.

----------


## Zaresh

> I like tim, tam. I think ric grayson story is ok because i like bea and ric togather and i think talia,jason hook up was hot. There i said it.


True to the thread. Definitely controversial XD.

----------


## Godlike13

Bea should be stuffed in a fridge...

----------


## king81992

> Bea should be stuffed in a fridge...


I'd rather not turn Dick/ Ric into the next Kyle Rayner, a character who never recovered from his woman getting fridged. Everything that happened to Kyle after that was DC pretending he was going to be relevant.

----------


## redmax99

> Bea should be stuffed in a fridge...


naw she might not be a hero but when cobb was beating dick she was trying to help. they semi jump cobb and still lost i respect her effort, she was attacking a train assassin for dick. now i just want to see will a dick and bea relationship workout when he gets his memories back.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## redmax99

to me they're the same person same body he just lost his memory it's like if ric commit a crime they both go to jail and dick gets his memory back there he' still be doing 5 years even though ric commited the crime

----------


## batnbreakfast

DC should parody themselves more and make a the Divorce Album. It would sell

----------


## Valentonis

I'm not sure how controversial this is, but: Dick Grayson is my favorite DC hero, not necessarily Nightwing. I love him as Nightwing, but I also love him as Robin, Batman, 37 etc. I think he has a strong enough core character that he is bigger than whatever costume he happens to be wearing at the time. Which is why the Ric situation sucks so much, because for the first time in his long history he's not himself.

----------


## Westbats

I know Scott Snyder said that _Last Knight on Earth_ was his last Batman story, but I'd love for him to write a miniseries that fills in the gap between the end of _Last Knight on Earth_ and his _Twenty-Seven_ story. If each Batman-clone got his own artist, a couple of issues, that'd be cool.

I'm also holding out hope that one day, Harper Row/Bluebird will get her due. And that's due, with an U.

----------


## Rakiduam

> to me they're the same person same body he just lost his memory it's like if ric commit a crime they both go to jail and dick gets his memory back there he' still be doing 5 years even though ric commited the crime


Except Dick wouldn't have committed said crime in the first place, or date whoever, but I think the comparison to a 5 year sentence is accurate.

----------


## TheRay

> So who outcasts them if the general public doesn't?


People who know them.

----------


## Tzigone

> People who know them.


You'll have to describe how they consistently do that.

For me, outcast is "a person who has been rejected by society or a social group" and that is definitely not Dick or Tim.  Being rejected by one person (as Dick was by Bruce in early post-COIE) is not being an outcast.  I think one has to be rejected by a larger group on a consistent basis (one time being told to go away or not invited doesn't count as outcast).  And this just is not how they are treated, IMO.  Maybe Jason and Cass were rejected by other Batfam when they were evil (haven't actually read Cass' evil issues), but that doesn't count to me, because they were bad guys, and rejecting them appropriate.  Dick and Tim are generally very accepted by broader hero community, who know them. And by social friends who know them, but not their secret identities.

----------


## TheRay

It doesn’t really matter if you, or I, consider them an outcast. The point is they can easily be written as such.

----------


## Restingvoice

> People who know them.


Wait, what? Who? How?

----------


## Agent Z

> It doesnt really matter if you, or I, consider them an outcast. The point is they can easily be written as such.


For them to be written as outcasts they'd have to be totally different characters entirely.

----------


## Stars & Stripes

> I know Scott Snyder said that _Last Knight on Earth_ was his last Batman story, but I'd love for him to write a miniseries that fills in the gap between the end of _Last Knight on Earth_ and his _Twenty-Seven_ story. If each Batman-clone got his own artist, a couple of issues, that'd be cool.
> 
> I'm also holding out hope that one day, Harper Row/Bluebird will get her due. And that's due, with an U.


Maybe she shows up in the next season of Young Justice as Bluebird? Heck, have her drop by the CW’s Batwoman show, even if she’s just plain ‘ol Harper (obviously building up to her suiting up as Bluebird).

----------


## AmiMizuno

I know this has been talked about but should Nightwing really become Batman? I know this has been part of a few storylines. But doesn’t this prove the fact Nightwing isn’t truly able to stand out on his own?

----------


## Godlike13

Depends on the story, but like anything do it too much and it becomes watered down. I don’t think it’s something that should be revisited anytime soon. Unless Morrison wants to do Batman and Robin again, then ok.

----------


## kaimaciel

It pains me that Harper Row got more screen time than Jason Todd on Young Justice. That really hurt.

----------


## CPSparkles

> It pains me that Harper Row got more screen time than Jason Todd on Young Justice. That really hurt.


I feel like next season they'll have Jason become more of a presence.

----------


## Tzigone

> I know this has been talked about but should Nightwing really become Batman? I know this has been part of a few storylines. But doesn’t this prove the fact Nightwing isn’t truly able to stand out on his own?


No, he definitely should not become Batman. Certain storylines hit that point (others go the other way, as you acknowledge).  I think he needs to be himself, to stand out on his own. He'd always be not the "real" Batman to fans, and that's not a good thing.  But I'm that way about all the heroes - much prefer they make their own identities great (as the first gen did) instead of getting hand-me-down identities.  I really dislike stories that show the future and show the "kids" grown up to take on the mantle of the mentors.  Dick and Kon are ones that particularly bug me, since they've both had storylines that point out that's not what they should do.  This is too much them getting validation or deriving worthy from being successors instead of from themselves.

----------


## Stars & Stripes

> I feel like next season they'll have Jason become more of a presence.


Certainly, and I honestly don’t think Harper becomes Bluebird next season just yet.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I know this has been talked about but should Nightwing really become Batman? I know this has been part of a few storylines. But doesn’t this prove the fact Nightwing isn’t truly able to stand out on his own?


He doesn't want it but he will take over if there's no other option

----------


## AmiMizuno

I do love his personality in young justice. I just wish the comics would write him like that.

----------


## dietrich

> I know this has been talked about but should Nightwing really become Batman? I know this has been part of a few storylines. But doesnt this prove the fact Nightwing isnt truly able to stand out on his own?


I don't mind him donning the cowl if Batman for whatever reason is unable [it's got to be a serious absence not just because bruce had to travel or something like that, more like when he was presumed dead].

I love DickBats but he is Nightwing and Nigthwing has responsibilities this is why I feel BludHaven is so important. It means that he can't just be expected to fill in at the drop of a hat.

Nightwing isn't something he's doing until Batman position becomes vacant. Nightwing is who he is.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I don't mind him donning the cowl if Batman for whatever reason is unable [it's got to be a serious absence not just because bruce had to travel or something like that, more like when he was presumed dead].
> 
> I love DickBats but he is Nightwing and Nigthwing has responsibilities this is why I feel BludHaven is so important. It means that he can't just be expected to fill in at the drop of a hat.
> 
> Nightwing isn't something he's doing until Batman position becomes vacant. Nightwing is who he is.


I agree. The issue becomes how writers have written his Bliudhaven

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I think Nightwing can be who he is, but he doesn't need Bludhaven for that to work. He works better without it.

Even with a new Bludhaven that he was inventing himself, it came through in the pages that Seeley wasn't that interested in Bludhaven. that's why his first and third arcs were the strongest.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I think Nightwing can be who he is, but he doesn't need Bludhaven for that to work. He works better without it.
> 
> Even with a new Bludhaven that he was inventing himself, it came through in the pages that Seeley wasn't that interested in Bludhaven. that's why his first and third arcs were the strongest.


So maybe Dick would work better if yes he lives in Bludhaven but generally is moving from place to place helping others

----------


## dietrich

> So maybe Dick would work better if yes he lives in Bludhaven but generally is moving from place to place helping others


I really liked the Globe Trotting Nightwing that Seeley pitched at the start of his Rebirth run but that never became a real thing.

Kind of a mash up of Agent 37 and Nightwing.

----------


## dietrich

> I think Nightwing can be who he is, but he doesn't need Bludhaven for that to work. He works better without it.
> 
> Even with a new Bludhaven that he was inventing himself, it came through in the pages that Seeley wasn't that interested in Bludhaven. that's why his first and third arcs were the strongest.


I feel that Dick having a city that's his own gives him independent and shows his strength as a hero. It should also make it harder for Bat writers to tag him for cave duties and other Bat support roles. Makes him less available. 

Well I keep hoping it will do that but it hasn't so far has it.

I like Dick with his own Town, duties and life away from Gotham.

What about BludHaven but with frequent missions/trips away so it doesn't feel like he's tied down? Also give the writers a reason to create a Nightwing support staff/cast. people to to fill in when Nightwing's away.

The globe trotting = diverse characters from all over the DCU [new and existing]

----------


## AmiMizuno

Going back to the original Bludhaven. The replace Nightwing could be a Ex cop Dick knows. One other things would be as Nightwing what would cause him to global travel a lot? I think it would be easy due to leads outside the town. Or work.  The next question that is in important what would happen if there is no Nightwing? If there is no Batman the crime world will go crazy. Should the same be said with Nightwing?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I feel that Dick having a city that's his own gives him independent and shows his strength as a hero. It should also make it harder for Bat writers to tag him for cave duties and other Bat support roles. Makes him less available. 
> 
> Well I keep hoping it will do that but it hasn't so far has it.
> 
> I like Dick with his own Town, duties and life away from Gotham.
> 
> What about BludHaven but with frequent missions/trips away so it doesn't feel like he's tied down? Also give the writers a reason to create a Nightwing support staff/cast. people to to fill in when Nightwing's away.
> 
> The globe-trotting = diverse characters from all over the DCU [new and existing]


Placing him anywhere never stopped them using Dick in Batman's story. He's supposed to be guarding Bludhaven these days too but he's still called to fill in as Batman when Bruce had to appear in court and then stayed long enough to be shot because Batman's sad. 

When he's in Chicago he's moved back to Gotham to be a hostage in Forever Evil, and that's even farther than Bludhaven. 

The early months of secret agent, he's not supposed to be involved because he's supposed to be in hiding, but even then Tomasi and Snyder managed to make his cameo in Robin Rises and Endgame, where the story of Grayson supposed to say that the first time he disobey order and goes to Gotham was the next year. 

He's only not involved if they don't want him to be involved. It doesn't matter how far he goes or what's the situation.

----------


## Zaresh

You know.

I would like a what if-esque mini exploring Jason taking on the cowl, in a non-murderous way (you know what I mean and what I'm remembering). I think it would make for a nice non-canon story, has a lot of potential. And I think I'm not the only fan who would like to read that (in official material), given that I've read a few fics with that premise.

Given the circumstances, I don't think Jason would be that much against the idea. He respects Bruce*, even if he disagrees with him regarding how to fight crime. And he would respect his rules if he were to inherit the mantle* (I think he would, honestly, out of respect).

But something canon-divergence. I don't think people would like to see Jason as Batman in the main universe. Not the general audience, at least.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Batman White Knight is boring. So. Much. Text. There is no flow. Amazing art and character designs, though.

----------


## Sergard

> You know.
> 
> I would like a what if-esque mini exploring Jason taking on the cowl, in a non-murderous way (you know what I mean and what I'm remembering). I think it would make for a nice non-canon story, has a lot of potential. And I think I'm not the only fan who would like to read that (in official material), given that I've read a few fics with that premise.
> 
> Given the circumstances, I don't think Jason would be that much against the idea. He respects Bruces, even if he disagrees with him regarding how to fight crime. And he would respect his rules if he were to inherit the mantles (I think he would, honestly, out of respect).
> 
> But something canon-divergence. I don't think people would like to see Jason as Batman in the main universe. Not the general audience, at least.


I agree with everything, especially that Jason wouldn't kill as Batman out of respect for Bruce (But he would probably also do everything to avoid this "honor".)
General audience wouldn't like to see anyone other than Bruce as Batman in the main universe, myself included.
I personally believe that it's a better idea to permanently replace Bruce as Batman in an elseworlds story or on another earth in the multiverse.
At least in main continuity I'm not a fan of adult heroes/vigilantes, etc. throwing away their own personal identity, that they have used for years, to take over the identity of someone else. It's nonsensical.

----------


## dietrich

> I agree with everything, especially that Jason wouldn't kill as Batman out of respect for Bruce (But he would probably also do everything to avoid this "honor".)
> General audience wouldn't like to see anyone other than Bruce as Batman in the main universe, myself included.
> I personally believe that it's a better idea to permanently replace Bruce as Batman in an elseworlds story or on another earth in the multiverse.
> At least in main continuity I'm not a fan of adult heroes/vigilantes, etc. throwing away their own personal identity, that they have used for years, to take over the identity of someone else. It's nonsensical.


General Audience doesn't really mind if DC replaces Bruce in the main Universe for sometime as shown by the success of DickBats and the sales of JimBat.



A small minority will complain of course but if the story is good then they fall in.

----------


## dietrich

> Placing him anywhere never stopped them using Dick in Batman's story. He's supposed to be guarding Bludhaven these days too but he's still called to fill in as Batman when Bruce had to appear in court and then stayed long enough to be shot because Batman's sad. 
> 
> When he's in Chicago he's moved back to Gotham to be a hostage in Forever Evil, and that's even farther than Bludhaven. 
> 
> The early months of secret agent, he's not supposed to be involved because he's supposed to be in hiding, but even then Tomasi and Snyder managed to make his cameo in Robin Rises and Endgame, where the story of Grayson supposed to say that the first time he disobey order and goes to Gotham was the next year. 
> 
> He's only not involved if they don't want him to be involved. It doesn't matter how far he goes or what's the situation.


Yep. I'm just wishfully thinking at this point.

Bludhaven citzen's matter just as much dang it!

----------


## dietrich

> Going back to the original Bludhaven. The replace Nightwing could be a Ex cop Dick knows. One other things would be as Nightwing what would cause him to global travel a lot? I think it would be easy due to leads outside the town. Or work.  The next question that is in important what would happen if there is no Nightwing? If there is no Batman the crime world will go crazy. Should the same be said with Nightwing?


It should be important what happens to the city without Nightwing just like if Batman or any other hero who protects suddenly goes missing. It's just that the batbooks ignore it.

Currently in Nightwing, the city felt the loss which is why the group The Nightwings took it on themselves to protect the city in his absence.

----------


## Zaresh

> I agree with everything, especially that Jason wouldn't kill as Batman out of respect for Bruce *(But he would probably also do everything to avoid this "honor".)*
> General audience wouldn't like to see anyone other than Bruce as Batman in the main universe, myself included.
> I personally believe that it's a better idea to permanently replace Bruce as Batman in an elseworlds story or on another earth in the multiverse.
> At least in main continuity I'm not a fan of adult heroes/vigilantes, etc. throwing away their own personal identity, that they have used for years, to take over the identity of someone else. It's nonsensical.


Of course, I think Jason would prefer to not wear those shoes; but if he had to, because the circumstances require him to do so, I think he would.




> General Audience doesn't really mind if DC replaces Bruce in the main Universe for sometime as shown by the success of DickBats and the sales of JimBat.
> 
> *A small minority will complain of course but if the story is good then they fall in.*


I don't know about Jim as Batman, but I think DickBats worked well, and was so liked in the end, because two very strong reasons. One: because it was a fun, really fun read. It was fresh, it was balanced (good team dynamic, beside others things), has a good pace, and was well written. And two: it wasn't mean to last long. Everyone new that Bruce would come back eventually, as he did. I didn't read it at the time, but I remember people in my country forums—when it started— being as much against it as they were against Grayson; but when the run was finished, people had enjoyed it so much that they wouldn't mind more of it.

What I mean is, even when an idea doesn't look like is going to be well received, even if when it is not well received, it may work and be well liked in the end. It depends on a bunch of things.

I don't think that would be the case with Jason, and I don't think people would like if Bruce were permanently replaced; but I agree about that one of the reasons for a change to be accepted is that the story is good.

----------


## Jackalope89

It would take an awful lot for Jason to take up the mantle, even hesitantly. Like Bruce being done (due to age, death, injury, or some other reason), Dick being unavailable ("Ric", and the same as Bruce), and Damian either being too young or else unable too as well. Tim... Almost every time he becomes Batman, he seems to go dictator. Best to keep him away from the mantle. Whereas Jason was actually Batman on one Earth, and even a member of the Justice League. Take that how you will.

Dick as Batman at least makes some sense. Jim Gordon, not a good decision that one.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason as Batman but he doesn't kill. Whats the hook then...

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## Zaresh

> Jason as Batman but he doesn't kill. Whats the hook then...


All that's behind that, precisely. The fact that he has conflicting feels, for example. Or the reflection on what's justice and what's vigilantism, or what's really his role in the system they've created in Gotham, how the people in Gotham see and perceive him, including the police and the rouges, how the JL sees him, or the remaining bats, his strugglings with his shortcomings, his past relationship with Bruce...

There's a lot of potential for a good story there.

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## dietrich

> Of course, I think Jason would prefer to not wear those shoes; but if he had to, because the circumstances require him to do so, I think he would.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about Jim as Batman, but I think DickBats worked well, and was so liked in the end, because two very strong reasons. One: because it was a fun, really fun read. It was fresh, it was balanced (good team dynamic, beside others things), has a good pace, and was well written. And two: it wasn't mean to last long. Everyone new that Bruce would come back eventually, as he did. I didn't read it at the time, but I remember people in my country forumswhen it started being as much against it as they were against Grayson; but when the run was finished, people had enjoyed it so much that they wouldn't mind more of it.
> 
> What I mean is, even when an idea doesn't look like is going to be well received, even if when it is not well received, it may work and be well liked in the end. It depends on a bunch of things.
> 
> I don't think that would be the case with Jason, and I don't think people would like if Bruce were permanently replaced; but I agree about that one of the reasons for a change to be accepted is that the story is good.


Yeah a good story is important as is the legitimacy of the character's right to inherit the role in the audience's mind.

Bruce won't be replaced in main universe. That's not financially smart. 

When The Death of Bruce Wayne was announced a lot of the outrage was that fans genuinely thought it would be permanent. Now everyone's using Morrison's guideline for Batman. Death and Rebirth without getting it but back then it was a shock. No one knew how long he would be dead especially since Morrison had such a long term contract.

DC should do a Spiderverse type story or show with Batman showing Bruce, Dickbats, Terry and Damibats like Batman 700 did. Just to show the legacy progression.

A Spiderverse for Robins just so fans know there was more than one or two.

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## Sergard

I don't think any Robin has more or less potential to become a good Batman. It's up to the writer to lay the path, like Morrison decided to make Dick a good Batman.
Maybe another writer would have decided to make Dick fail as Batman - and it still could have felt like a natural progression.
So Tim being like a dictator in other universes doesn't mean that main continuity Tim or a Tim from another universe will go down the same road.

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## Zaresh

> I don't think any Robin has more or less potential to become a good Batman. It's up to the writer to lay the path, like Morrison decided to make Dick a good Batman.
> Maybe another writer would have decided to make Dick fail as Batman - and it still could have felt like a natural progression.
> So Tim being like a dictator in other universes doesn't mean that main continuity Tim or a Tim from another universe will go down the same road.


It seems like Tim issues always tend to fall into his controlling and fix-it-all tendencies, but they are not worse than Bruce's. Or, heck, Dick's sometimes. Jason's controlling tendencies are fundamentally about having control over his own life alone, so that at least wouldn't be a problem for him (he would struggle with others). I agree with you here: if Tim's what ifs had shown him as they had, it's just because writers chose that way because they needed a villain. Same as how Morrison chose to force Jason as a villain for his story. That doesn't means that the character has to naturally progress always to that state and characterisation.

And for what's worth, a Tim was Batman in Batman Beyond. I didn't read that, but it's there.

----------


## Godlike13

> All that's behind that, precisely. The fact that he has conflicting feels, for example. Or the reflection on what's justice and what's vigilantism, or what's really his role in the system they've created in Gotham, how the people in Gotham see and perceive him, including the police and the rouges, how the JL sees him, or the remaining bats, his strugglings with his shortcomings, his past relationship with Bruce...
> 
> There's a lot of potential for a good story there.


Jason as the new Batman but doesn’t kill, would be like Dick as the new Batman that doesn’t smile. Take away the biggest thing that would make the idea of him as the new Batman new and different, then what’s the point. All those questions you propose become far more complicated and interesting if Jason is actually doing something that Bruce didn’t do. Something that certain people and likes the JL might actually have a problem with.

----------


## Sergard

> Jason as the new Batman but doesn’t kill, would be like Dick as the new Batman that doesn’t smile. Take away the biggest thing that would make the idea of him as the new Batman new and different, then what’s the point. All those questions you propose become far more complicated and interesting if Jason is actually doing something that Bruce didn’t do. Something that certain people and likes the JL might actually have a problem with.


There's nothing new about a Batman that smiles. Pre-crisis Batman smiled a lot. Why are people forgetting that? Dick wasn't the first "happy" Batman.
There's also nothing new about a Batman that kills: Pre-crisis Batman, King's DickBats from an alternate timeline, Tim's Batman/Savior, the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman (I think), some evil versions of Damian too, other versions of Bruce etc.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't think any Robin has more or less potential to become a good Batman. It's up to the writer to lay the path, like Morrison decided to make Dick a good Batman.
> Maybe another writer would have decided to make Dick fail as Batman - and it still could have felt like a natural progression.
> So Tim being like a dictator in other universes doesn't mean that main continuity Tim or a Tim from another universe will go down the same road.


No writer can make a fan feel like a replacement is a legitimate choice if they already have a character that they have their mind set on who belongs in that role. 

A good batman isn't the same as a legitimate heir. This why some fans to this day have never accepted Damian as a Robin and why so many are asking why isn't Dick Replacing Batman in 5G and why No one why isn't Jim replacing Batman in 5G. One is a legitimate choice in the minds of fans the other isn't.

We already saw Tim as Batman in main Universe. He got stab by Jason and left for dead because he rushed into the fray. Damian had to go save him along with Squire.

----------


## dietrich

> There's nothing new about a Batman that smiles. Pre-crisis Batman smiled a lot. Why are people forgetting that? Dick wasn't the first "happy" Batman.
> There's also nothing new about a Batman that kills: Pre-crisis Batman, King's DickBats from an alternate timeline, Tim's Batman/Savior, the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman (I think), some evil versions of Damian too, other versions of Bruce etc.


Evil Damian? Is Jason evil because he occasionally kills? This is so strange to me when One character does something he's evil another then he's an anti hero. Batman666 who sole his soul to protect the citzens of Gotham . So evil.

No future Damian is evil fyi. I don't understand how some can read something and remember another.

----------


## dietrich

> It seems like Tim issues always tend to fall into his controlling and fix-it-all tendencies, but they are not worse than Bruce's. Or, heck, Dick's sometimes. Jason's controlling tendencies are fundamentally about having control over his own life alone, so that at least wouldn't be a problem for him (he would struggle with others). I agree with you here: if Tim's what ifs had shown him as they had, it's just because writers chose that way because they needed a villain. Same as how Morrison chose to force Jason as a villain for his story. That doesn't means that the character has to naturally progress always to that state and characterisation.
> 
> And for what's worth, a Tim was Batman in Batman Beyond. I didn't read that, but it's there.


Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?

I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.

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## Jackalope89

> Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?
> 
> *I actually liked Jason as a villain.* I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.


We'll agree to disagree on that.

As for Jason, he likes to say he's "neither good nor evil", but he's still chaotic good. He just took in a bunch of wayward meta teens, gave the Su Sisters a legit chance of starting over, and found a good home for his dog, Dog.

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## Godlike13

> There's nothing new about a Batman that smiles. Pre-crisis Batman smiled a lot. Why are people forgetting that? Dick wasn't the first "happy" Batman.
> There's also nothing new about a Batman that kills: Pre-crisis Batman, King's DickBats from an alternate timeline, Tim's Batman/Savior, the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman (I think), some evil versions of Damian too, other versions of Bruce etc.


Your taking it the too literal and missing the point. The point isn't Dick smiled, Bruce didn't. Its about the whole behavioral and personality differences that made Dick different from Bruce. Dick wasn't even the "happy" Batman, because he didn't want to be Batman and well his hero just died. Point is if he didn't act or operate like Dick, and instead just tried to be more like Bruce by honoring his rules or whatever, there there would have been nothing really different or new about his Batman from the Batman previous. It would have been terrible, and you wouldn't have had Dick and Damian reversing the classic Batman and Robin dynamic. Same would be true for Jason. Jason becoming Batman only to act more like Bruce did because he's going to honor Bruce's rules now, defeats the entire purpose. If he's Batman he would have to be a Batman that is willing kill and be generally go to more extremes. Cause that is the sell that Jason could bring to the table there.

That being said with having the likes of the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman, and Batman666 even. That doesn't really help the idea of Jason becoming Batman.

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## Zaresh

> *Jason as the new Batman but doesn’t kill, would be like Dick as the new Batman that doesn’t smile*. *Take away the biggest thing that would make the idea of him as the new Batman* new and different, then what’s the point. All those questions you propose become far more complicated and interesting if Jason is actually doing something that Bruce didn’t do. Something that certain people and likes the JL might actually have a problem with.


So, what you're telling me is, that the many, many conflicts and implications that Jason,

-A known vigilante that has committed murdering,
-That has serious emotional problems,
-Doesn't have a constant and strong support system
-And is overall looked warily by everyone, if not straight distrusted, 

Could* have* are the same that Dick being "the Batman who smiles" (and that's not fair for Dick as Batman either).

Eh.... (edit: imagine me doing a so-so gesture with my hand: it's that kind of "eh")
I know that you and me see and expect different things of Jason. But reducing Jason to "the bat who kills" is simplistic. I've listed already a handfull of interesting points that would make his story as Batman interesting, and they're definitely something that Dick couldn't bring to the table, just because they don't share the same struggles. At best, they share some insecurity filling the cowl: but that's all.

And lets not forget that we're talking about a what if scenario. "Elseworlds" tend to be minis or one-shots, not even short runs. The premise is more than enough for an interesting read.

(Edit: just in case, I don't mean to sound disrespectful. I respect you're opinion, but I disagree)

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## Zaresh

> Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?
> 
> I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.


Winick's Jason was an antagonist, not exactly a villain. An Anti-Villain. He antagonized Bruce and didn bad deeds, but wasn't evil in nature, as you could expect of a straight villain. Actually, he was pretty grey and neutral outside that story under Winick, as far as I recall. And he was definitely an anti-hero in Dini's Countdown to Final Crisis, which was just before RIP and Battle for the Cowl, which is where Morrison's Jason comes from. When Winick got to write Jason again, later in Morrison's run, he was, again, (as far as I remember him) being rather gray more than evil, even if he was antagonistic still.

Jason was the one thing I definitely disliked in Morrison's Dickbats. And I loved reading that book.

If I'm not remembering wrong, or I didn't read it out of order (because I wasn't reading up to date then. I read it all a few years later).

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## Godlike13

> Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?
> 
> I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.


Jason was a counter argument under Winick. He wasn't good guy, but he wasn't a villain in a classical sense either. But ya, he was far more interesting then whatever they try to pretend he is these days.

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## Godlike13

> So, what you're telling me is, that the many, many conflicts and implications that Jason,
> 
> -A known vigilante that has committed murdering,
> -That has serious emotional problems,
> -Doesn't have a constant and strong support system
> -And is overall looked warily by everyone, if not straight distrusted, 
> 
> Are the same that Dick being "the Batman who smiles".
> 
> ...


They are not conflicts if there isn't actually conflict then. A known vigilante that has committed murder not murdering isn't conflict. Having serious problems, but those problems not causing problems then isn't conflict. Ect, ect. Not killing, and respecting Bruce's rules, would take off the table the biggest source of potential conflict Jason's Batman would have. Hooks don't need to be overly complicated, but something people can easily digest and be brought in. And then you get more complicated.

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## Sergard

> No writer can make a fan feel like a replacement is a legitimate choice if they already have a character that they have their mind set on who belongs in that role. 
> 
> A good batman isn't the same as a legitimate heir. This why some fans to this day have never accepted Damian as a Robin and why so many are asking why isn't Dick Replacing Batman in 5G and why No one why isn't Jim replacing Batman in 5G. One is a legitimate choice in the minds of fans the other isn't.
> 
> We already saw Tim as Batman in main Universe. He got stab by Jason and left for dead because he rushed into the fray. Damian had to go save him along with Squire.


Of course fans are biased. Dick fans want Dick as next Batman - and other fans want maybe other characters as next Batman. In my mind every Robin is a legitimate heir/choice. I'm fine with Luke too for 5G. There will always be some fans who are butthurt because their favorite character wasn't chosen.

I don't see how Jason stabbing Tim and Damian saving Tim makes Tim a bad Batman. Would you claim that Damian is a bad Robin because he died or that Dick is a bad Nightwing because he nearly died in Forever Evil? Or that Bruce is a bad Batman because Bane broke his back?




> Evil Damian? Is Jason evil because he occasionally kills? This is so strange to me when One character does something he's evil another then he's an anti hero. Batman666 who sole his soul to protect the citzens of Gotham . So evil.
> 
> No future Damian is evil fyi. I don't understand how some can read something and remember another.


Fyi, I wasn't talking about Batman666. Batman666 isn't evil. Chill a little bit. Every Robin has an evil version. That's DC - and DC earns their money with evil Batman and Robin versions.
I can't remember the comic, but I remember some panels about an evil Damian - and some screenshots from a movie.
I'm not a Damian fan, I don't know his whole DC history in every detail.




> Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?
> 
> I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.


Winnick's Jason didn't have red hair, neither in BUtH nor in Red Hood: The Lost Days. Winnick also made it a point that Jason is not crazy while Morrison's Jason was completely nuts.
I hated what Morrison did with Jason, especially in comparison to Dick and Damian. Dick and Damian were pushed as "heroes" while Jason had to be the "evil Robin" in order to symbolize Dick and Damian as "good Robins". Damian and Jason are both murderer and traumatized characters but for some reason Dick "Heart of the family" Grayson decided that Damian deserves happiness and Jason punishment.

He's an anti-hero in my eyes, because he kills when necessary, fights crime and protects civilians/innocent people. Others still see him as hero because he only kills "bad guys". The easy way is to call Jason a vigilante. That's always true.
I also call everyone in the batfamily a vigilante because I don't consider anyone a "hero". For example, characters like Jason, Damian, Cass or Kate can never be heroes for me because they have killed in the past. That's not something that can be undone.
"Hero", "anti-hero", "anti-villain" and "villain" can be very vague depending on your own definition.

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## Zaresh

> They are not conflicts if there isn't actually conflict then. A known vigilante that has committed murder not murdering isn't a conflict. Having serious problems, but those problems not causing problems then isn't conflict. Ect, ect. Not killing, and following rules, would take off the table the biggest source of potential conflict Jason's Batman would have. Hooks don't need to be overly complicated, but something people can easily digest and be brought in. And then you can get complicated.


But they're going to conflict him. He's going to wear the cowl because he has to and he's going to respect Bruce code out of respect. That's a lot to bear while people know who you're, what you did and don't repent, and what you're doing while struggling with it (because at some point he's going to come across some baddie that he would rather kill). People are not going to want to work with him, they're not going to respect him. Heck, they would even want to imprison him even when he's Batman. I could see Gordon hunting him pretty restlessly because he fears he's going to return to his actual methods at some point. And rogues? Those guys are going to play dirty and nasty with him because they think that he's not much better than him, if at all.

I would love to write that story (it I could, but I'm not good enough). I can think of a lot of nice stuff that I would enjoy reading. I have a hard time not seeing the appeal, personally :3.

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## Godlike13

> Winnick's Jason didn't have red hair, neither in BUtH nor in Red Hood: The Lost Days. Winnick also made it a point that Jason is not crazy while Morrison's Jason was completely nuts.
> I hated what Morrison did with Jason, especially in comparison to Dick and Damian. Dick and Damian were pushed as "heroes" while Jason had to be the "evil Robin" in order to symbolize Dick and Damian as "good Robins". Damian and Jason are both murderer and traumatized characters but for some reason Dick "Heart of the family" Grayson decided that Damian deserves happiness and Jason punishment.


Jason wasn't Dick's to save. He was grown ass man, making grown ass man decisions. Damain was the 10 year old son of Dick's savior that didn't know any better.

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## Zaresh

> Jason wasn't Dick's to save. He was grown ass man, making grown ass man decisions. Damain was the 10 year old son of Dick's savior that didn't know any better.


Jason was, what? 20 then? Barely a man. And he did most of his Red Hood stuff when he was 17 or so. He was 14 when he died. I wouldn't say that a teenager with already PTSD problems and an awful upbringing but for three years he passed with Bruce and Alfred—fighting crime, even—, then died, then was brainwashed/manipulated by some dark cult of assassins, is a "grownass man." Edit: He needed support and help, as any other victim, at the very least. Edit again: Because even when he was a perpetrator, he was also a victim.

Edit: More if you take into account that he was:
-Freshout of Arkham (or Blackgate, I don't remember which one was), where he was imprisoned with people that knew him.
-Saw that awful tape. Godlord, it was a tasteless move.
-Had just lost his father, because he still loved Bruce, despite of all.

Edit: and I'm someone who thinks that if you're old enough to vote, you are already half-way to maturity and should be responsible enough to know what you're doing. But that's not always the case, or not the case for every responsibility out there. I couldn't manage to be a judge, for example, even if I actually am a grownass adult, because I'm just not prepared to decide what's to become of the life of someone else.

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## Sergard

> But they're going to conflict him. He's going to wear the cowl because he has to and he's going to respect Bruce code because out of respect. That's a lot to bear while people know who you're, what you did and don't repent, and what you're doing while struggling with it (because at some point he's going to come across some baddie that he would rather kill). People is not going to want to work with him, they're not going to respect him. Heck, they would even want to imprison him even if he's Batman not. I could see Gordon hunting him because pretty restlessly because he fears he's going to return to his actual methods at some point. And rogues? Those guys are going to play dirty and nasty with him because they think that he's not much better than him, if at all.
> 
> I would love to write that story (it I could, but I'm not good enough). I can think of a lot of nice stuff that I would enjoy reading. I have a hard time not seeing the appeal, personally :3.


Agreed. (And I'd love to read that story.)
Jason has also the potential to be a symbol of redemption for characters who want to redeem themselves - because Jason has been in a similar position, he has a better understanding of their situation.
He knows their struggles/problems, he knows how it feels to have nobody in one's corner - and he knows that redemption is a life-long journey - not just one story arc or mini-series. Or not just a simple excuse.
That's what I loved about Earth-15 (Batman Jason). There weren't only well-known heroes in the Justice League but also ex-villains like Zod as Superman and Lex Luthor.
And that's also what I love about the current Rebirth run. Jason gives people like Bizarro, Artemis or Generation Outlaw a genuine chance - others wouldn't have done the same.

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## Sergard

> Jason wasn't Dick's to save. He was grown ass man, making grown ass man decisions. Damain was the 10 year old son of Dick's savior that didn't know any better.


Of course Jason was Dick's to save. Dick is supposed to be a hero. And heroes save people who need help. And Jason needed help. Even "grown ass men" (and women) sometimes need help from others, not just 10 year old kids. And I think it's a sad testimony for Dick when he only saved Damian because he is Bruce' blood. Don't you think Dick would have still saved Damian if he hadn't been the "son of Dick's savior"?

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## Godlike13

> Of course Jason was Dick's to save. Dick is supposed to be a hero. And heroes save people who need help. And Jason needed help. Even "grown ass men" (and women) sometimes need help from others, not just 10 year old kids. And I think it's a sad testimony for Dick when he only saved Damian because he is Bruce' blood. Don't you think Dick would have still saved Damian if he hadn't been the "son of Dick's savior"?


Lets not pretend Jason was just some poor lamb who lost his way. He was grown man murdering people. People needed to be saved from him. And call it favoritism if you want, Dick probably wouldn't have made Damian his Robin is he wasn't Bruce's son. He would have helped him if he wasn't, but probably not like he did. Dick was doing for Damian what Bruce did for him. Though if he was Bruce's newly adopted 10 year old son he would have look after that kid all the same. It's not really a blood thing.

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## Rakiduam

> Of course Jason was Dick's to save. Dick is supposed to be a hero. And heroes save people who need help. And Jason needed help. Even "grown ass men" (and women) sometimes need help from others, not just 10 year old kids. And I think it's a sad testimony for Dick when he only saved Damian because he is Bruce' blood. Don't you think Dick would have still saved Damian if he hadn't been the "son of Dick's savior"?


Dick sending Jason to jail for 5 minutes, was basically a time off. Why are you pretending it was a big deal?

On the other I do think Damian is Dick's favorite, Jason is the step brother you have to tolerate because your parents got remaried and only see on holidays and birthdays, and that is already too much.

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## Zaresh

> *Dick sending Jason to jail for 5 minutes, was basically a time off. Why are you pretending it was a big deal?
> *
> On the other I do think Damian is Dick's favorite, Jason is the step brother you have to tolerate because your parents got remaried and only see on holidays and birthdays, and that is already too much.


Because it wasn't mean to be 5 minutes.
Because he could have done better, and he didn't. And yes, that's a faultly decision, something that shows how human Dick is. He has his flaws, that often show when he's stressed, which was the case when he started as Batman. He was coming from a very stressful period of his life, and it showed.


Guys, it's clear we hold different positions in this matter. What if we leave it here, stopping this pretty controversial discussion (we've already stated our thoughts), before we start to heat this sweet potato anymore?

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## Valentonis

https://66.media.tumblr.com/8ad374b1...rrwb7v_540.png

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Not that Jason's actions weren't understandable due to his trauma, but you can't say that Dick didn't try.

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## dietrich

> Of course fans are biased. Dick fans want Dick as next Batman - and other fans want maybe other characters as next Batman. In my mind every Robin is a legitimate heir/choice. I'm fine with Luke too for 5G. There will always be some fans who are butthurt because their favorite character wasn't chosen.
> 
> I don't see how Jason stabbing Tim and Damian saving Tim makes Tim a bad Batman. Would you claim that Damian is a bad Robin because he died or that Dick is a bad Nightwing because he nearly died in Forever Evil? Or that Bruce is a bad Batman because Bane broke his back?
> 
> 
> 
> Fyi, I wasn't talking about Batman666. Batman666 isn't evil. Chill a little bit. Every Robin has an evil version. That's DC - and DC earns their money with evil Batman and Robin versions.
> I can't remember the comic, but I remember some panels about an evil Damian - and some screenshots from a movie.
> I'm not a Damian fan, I don't know his whole DC history in every detail.
> ...


Nope it wasn't just Dick fans who thought Dick is the most likely. Even Batman fans who hated the idea of him being replaced.

Fans of other character's who aren't into the batman but are aware of the franchise. Tim Drake Fans, Flash fans, Superman fans, Iron Man fans they all had the same response when Morrison proposed the idea of Killing bruce. They are having this response right now on comic vine, here and they had the same response back on comic Bloc.

You are the the one that said anything about Tim being evil/bad. I never did. I actually don't know why you keep bringing up bad batmen in a conversation about legitimacy.

You are not the only fan to have this notion that grown up Damian will be evil or a Killer without any evidence. it's cool like I said once fans have their minds made up no amount  of stories that counter that view will alter it.

Bias is very difficult to counter. Changing mind sets isn't easy hence why fans accept Dick Grayson as the legitimate heir. 

Dick Grayson fans are about the only ones who don't want Dick to be Batman  as can easily be seen in discussions and multiple threads on this very site.

Jason has always been considered and written as the bad Robin. Have you read the Batman stories after his death? Since then that's been the case and still is to a lesser extent so not exclusive to Morrison especially in a Batman title. What did you expect? Batman to be the villain? Even when Bruce is beating Jason with his fists or tormenting him mentally Batman is still the hero because he's the hero.

If Morrison was writing a Jason book and had anyone else as the hero then I might have issues or if he was the 1st to write a Jason that was willing to kill but he isn't so I have Zero issues.

 Yeah we've had this vigilante conversation before and I'm not going to get dragged into another pointless conversation on how all heroes are vigilantes. Which then begs the question if they are all in the wrong then they are all Bad so why did you bring up the point about Robins being good or Bad Batmen depending on the writer.  

They are all Bad Batmen by that logic? You see the futility.

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## dietrich

> Jason was, what? 20 then? Barely a man. And he did most of his Red Hood stuff when he was 17 or so. He was 14 when he died. I wouldn't say that a teenager with already PTSD problems and an awful upbringing but for three years he passed with Bruce and Alfredfighting crime, even, then died, then was brainwashed/manipulated by some dark cult of assassins, is a "grownass man." Edit: He needed support and help, as any other victim, at the very least. Edit again: Because even when he was a perpetrator, he was also a victim.
> 
> Edit: More if you take into account that he was:
> -Freshout of Arkham (or Blackgate, I don't remember which one was), where he was imprisoned with people that knew him.
> -Saw that awful tape. Godlord, it was a tasteless move.
> -Had just lost his father, because he still loved Bruce, despite of all.
> 
> Edit: and I'm someone who thinks that if you're old enough to vote, you are already half-way to maturity and should be responsible enough to know what you're doing. But that's not always the case, or not the case for every responsibility out there. I couldn't manage to be a judge, for example, even if I actually am a grownass adult, because I'm just not prepared to decide what's to become of the life of someone else.


Again how is that Dick's problem? Dick was dealing with the stress and traumas of losing a father and a brother falling apart and had just inherited a killer 10 year old that he was suddenly meant to care for. He had the weight of not just Batman's City but JL and wE.

You diagnosed Jason's issues but you didn't say in your answer why any of that was Dick's problem. Why Dick shouldn't put a law Breaker who threatened to exposed a 10year old's nudity on live Tv in Jail or have in thrown into Arkham.

The fact is ALL the Robins are victims and they all have issues they are always working through so I don't see why this is mentioned.

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## Zaresh

> Again how is that Dick's problem? Dick was dealing with the stress and traumas of losing a father and a brother falling apart and had just inherited a killer 10 year old that he was suddenly meant to care for. He had the weight of not just Batman's City but JL and wE.
> 
> You diagnosed Jason's issues but you didn't say in your answer why any of that was Dick's problem. Why Dick shouldn't put a law Breaker who threatened to exposed a 10year old's nudity on live Tv in Jail or have in thrown into Arkham.
> 
> The fact is ALL the Robins are victims and they all have issues they are always working through so I don't see why this is mentioned.


I have already said a few times in this forum how Morrison's Jason was straight OOC and and an "evulz villain", so I'm not going to enter to discuss that nudity bit here. I'm going to talk about what happened in general terms.

So why we mention that Dick should've involved himself into helping Jason too? It's been mentioned because we were arguing that Damian was saved (as in emotional supported and helped) but Jason, who dealt with a very similar package of issues, were treated as another criminal of their gallery. When both Damian and Jason were family. Dick didn't know Damian, not really; and he had not much contact with Jason prior either. They both were almost strangers to him with heavy emotional issues and no supporting system and familial ties. But Dick got involved with Damian and his problems in a personal level, but he decided to straight ignore and reject Jason. I don't understand how is it that you guys can see how he could do one but had nothing to do with the other. Yeah, I hear: Jason was a grownass adult. But the thing is, he really wasn't: he was barely 20, and I already mentioned what I think of that statement.

Besides, Jason was dealing with the loss of a father too. A father that in his last message to him straight said Jason himself that Jason was too broken. Which is an awful thing to say to your child as your last words: that you're too broken and need to be fixed. With the many issues that Jason was already dealing with, going all psychotic and all, you'd expect for Dick to be tactful. He wasn't. I may be remembering BftC wrong, but I think he even used that to hurt Jason more and fight him.

And I know Dick was dealing with a lot in his plate, and he's human; and that's why it doesn't annoy me much. He was pretty tactless with Tim too, deciding to change his dynamic with the family without consulting Tim, at all. That was a bad move too. Dick was stressed, chose poorly. Decided he didn't want to deal with more and chose to treat Jason as just another villain. Ok, that's ok. But doesn't make Dick right: it makes him human.

Now, you can say that Jason didn't want help. @Valentonis  posted that pic, that I think is from the end of BftC. And that is true too. And we all know that you cannot help someone who doesn't want help. Or... cannot help him much.

I'm going to bed, guys. I'm not going to reply until tomorrow late in the evening, most probably.

----------


## Godlike13

Again one is an adult responsible for his own actions, and one is a child someone legally had to be responsible for. You should understand the difference here. Jason isn't even that much younger then Dick, but yes why oh why didn't Dick help Jason as he shoots at and stabs them. 

Dick did help Jason btw, by stopping his murderous rampage and saving him from Flamingo. Plus it wasn't just at the end of BftC, he again offered his hand to Jason in B&R too. But at that point it was out of Dicks hands.

----------


## lemonpeace

Duke as a character needs his own logo, sunlight-themed hero with a bat on his face is mixed messaging at best and shamelessly bad branding at worst

----------


## Godlike13

Duke should have blinking right and left lights  :Cool:

----------


## TheRay

Nightwing can have his own sidekicks at this point.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Nightwing can have his own sidekicks at this point.


Agreed, but DC seems allergic to Dick and Kori being a thing. And having canonical kids.

----------


## Restingvoice

Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick, but DC says branding though.

Incidentally, DC can't seem to decide if they want a Robin by Batman or not, or to be exact, the marketing wants there to be a Batman and Robin brand, but the writers are divided between those who are more interested in writing Batman by himself, by their OCs, and by the actual Robin

I feel New 52 and Rebirth were when things get inconsistent. 

Before that, Robin is always by Batman in both of his series and some cameo on Titans or League. Even when they separated by distance to Hudson University, Knightfall, or Bludhaven, there's a consistent number of appearances based on what are they doing and where. If they're away, they're away, if they're there, they're there.

In New 52 and Rebirth Robin appearances is confined to certain series, while in other series, he isn't mentioned at all, as if he doesn't even live in the same house.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick, but DC says branding though.
> 
> Incidentally, DC can't seem to decide if they want a Robin by Batman or not, or to be exact, the marketing wants there to be a Batman and Robin brand, but the writers are divided between those who are more interested in writing Batman by himself, by their OCs, and by the actual Robin
> 
> I feel New 52 and Rebirth were when things get inconsistent. 
> 
> Before that, Robin is always by Batman in both of his series and some cameo on Titans or League. Even when they separated by distance to Hudson University, Knightfall, or Bludhaven, there's a consistent number of appearances based on what are they doing and where. If they're away, they're away, if they're there, they're there.
> 
> In New 52 and Rebirth Robin appearances is confined to certain series, while in other series, he isn't mentioned at all, as if he doesn't even live in the same house.


What makes you say Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick? I mean generally ronin is often seen as Batman sidekick





> Agreed, but DC seems allergic to Dick and Kori being a thing. And having canonical kids.


Agreed. Especially after they use the couple in elsewhere stories and in animated media

----------


## Aahz

> Jason isn't even that much younger then Dick


Pre Flashpoint he was closer to Tims age then to Dicks.

I anyway don't get why these stories are brought up again, they were imo allready out of character for the pre flashpoint version of Jason and even more so for the current that has been around since flashpoint.

----------


## Aahz

> Winick's Jason was an antagonist, not exactly a villain. An Anti-Villain. He antagonized Bruce and didn bad deeds, but wasn't evil in nature, as you could expect of a straight villain. Actually, he was pretty grey and neutral outside that story under Winick, as far as I recall. And he was definitely an anti-hero in Dini's Countdown to Final Crisis, which was just before RIP and Battle for the Cowl, which is where Morrison's Jason comes from. When Winick got to write Jason again, later in Morrison's run, he was, again, (as far as I remember him) being rather gray more than evil, even if he was antagonistic still.


The last thing Jason did under Winick's pen pre count down was afaik provide intel for Dick in Outsiders about Black Lighting being framed for murder and being about to get murdered in prison.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What makes you say Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick? I mean generally ronin is often seen as Batman sidekick


Dick made Damian Robin. They're the next generation of Batman and Robin. Sidekick of the original Batman grew up to become Batman himself and trained Batman's little boy.

----------


## dietrich

> I have already said a few times in this forum how Morrison's Jason was straight OOC and and an "evulz villain", so I'm not going to enter to discuss that nudity bit here. I'm going to talk about what happened in general terms.
> 
> So why we mention that Dick should've involved himself into helping Jason too? It's been mentioned because we were arguing that Damian was saved (as in emotional supported and helped) but Jason, who dealt with a very similar package of issues, were treated as another criminal of their gallery. When both Damian and Jason were family. Dick didn't know Damian, not really; and he had not much contact with Jason prior either. They both were almost strangers to him with heavy emotional issues and no supporting system and familial ties. But Dick got involved with Damian and his problems in a personal level, but he decided to straight ignore and reject Jason. I don't understand how is it that you guys can see how he could do one but had nothing to do with the other. Yeah, I hear: Jason was a grownass adult. But the thing is, he really wasn't: he was barely 20, and I already mentioned what I think of that statement.
> 
> Besides, Jason was dealing with the loss of a father too. A father that in his last message to him straight said Jason himself that Jason was too broken. Which is an awful thing to say to your child as your last words: that you're too broken and need to be fixed. With the many issues that Jason was already dealing with, going all psychotic and all, you'd expect for Dick to be tactful. He wasn't. I may be remembering BftC wrong, but I think he even used that to hurt Jason more and fight him.
> 
> And I know Dick was dealing with a lot in his plate, and he's human; and that's why it doesn't annoy me much. He was pretty tactless with Tim too, deciding to change his dynamic with the family without consulting Tim, at all. That was a bad move too. Dick was stressed, chose poorly. Decided he didn't want to deal with more and chose to treat Jason as just another villain. Ok, that's ok. But doesn't make Dick right: it makes him human.
> 
> Now, you can say that Jason didn't want help. @Valentonis  posted that pic, that I think is from the end of BftC. And that is true too. And we all know that you cannot help someone who doesn't want help. Or... cannot help him much.
> ...


Nope Nope nope. Dick has zero responsibility to Jason especially when Jason had tried to wipe out his family and was a danger to innocents everywhere. Jason tried to kill Tim, Damian and Dick himself. Killed lots of others in Gotham. 

Locking him up was the best way to keep him from hurting more family and citizens. Dick's 1st responsibility was to family that was why he had him locked up.

At least Dick did him that much Bruce just threatens it and does nothing to help. Jason for his actions since he came back needed to be grounded. Just like Bruce shipped Damian away when he endangered his family [Tim] 

Dick started helping Damian because Damian had already left his mother and was working as an independent hero in Gotham. He was seeking redemption already not acting out.

Jason and Damian where at very different stages and were different things which is why you can't expect Dick to treat them the same and why he shouldn't.

----------


## dietrich

> Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick, but DC says branding though.
> 
> Incidentally, DC can't seem to decide if they want a Robin by Batman or not, or to be exact, the marketing wants there to be a Batman and Robin brand, but the writers are divided between those who are more interested in writing Batman by himself, by their OCs, and by the actual Robin
> 
> I feel New 52 and Rebirth were when things get inconsistent. 
> 
> Before that, Robin is always by Batman in both of his series and some cameo on Titans or League. Even when they separated by distance to Hudson University, Knightfall, or Bludhaven, there's a consistent number of appearances based on what are they doing and where. If they're away, they're away, if they're there, they're there.
> 
> In New 52 and Rebirth Robin appearances is confined to certain series, while in other series, he isn't mentioned at all, as if he doesn't even live in the same house.


That is not true at all.

DC likes the name and promoting them as a duo but they don't actually want the two always working together.
Tim was created to be an independent Robin and since the 90's Robin hasn't been a regular in the Bat books.

Before the new 52 Batman was in Robin's solo but not the other way around.

----------


## Aahz

> That is not true at all.Before the new 52 Batman was in Robin's solo but not the other way around.


IIRC Batman hardly guest stared in the Robin solo,  if they teamed up it was usually in the Big Crossover stories, and occasionally in Batmans books (at least in the 90s).

----------


## Zaresh

> The last thing Jason did under Winick's pen pre count down was afaik provide intel for Dick in Outsiders about Black Lighting being framed for murder and being about to get murdered in prison.


I didm't remember it was for BL, but I do remember this. Well, I didn't know it was so later, but that's because I read it out of order. But I think that you can argue that it was because Jason needed the Outsiders to help getting someone innocent free, not because he wanted to help the Outsiders. He went to Dick armed and ready, after all. Can't say that he wouldn't: Dick would have atracked him straight if not.

I can see that @dietrich, @Godlike13 and I are not going to agree at all. It's clear that you guys see the problem very differently than me, see the characters differently, and  give importance to different things. So, like I said yesterday, before the discussion heats further, I'm out.

----------


## Aahz

> I know (I didm't remember it was for BL, but I do remember this). Well, I didn't know it was so later, but that's because I read it out of order. But you can argue that it was because Jason needed the Outsiders to help getting someone innocent free, not because he wanted to help the Outsiders. He went to Dick armed and ready, after all. Can't say that he wouldn't: Dick would have atracked him straight if not.


Maybe but he was still helping the good guy in the end and didn't profit from it.
So at this point he was neither crazy nor evil.

And the characterizations in BFTC were in general off, it had for example Damian taking the Batmobile for a joy ride.

And the whole social media angle in Morrsions B&R story felt also off for Jason, that more something Anarky would do.

----------


## Zaresh

> Maybe but he was still helping the good guy in the end and didn't profit from it.
> So at this point he was neither crazy nor evil.
> 
> And the characterizations in BFTC were in general off, it had for example Damian taking the Batmobile for a joy ride.
> 
> And the whole social media angle in Morrsions B&R story felt also off for Jason, that more something Anarky would do.


Oh, you have a point.

And I agree: BftC was showing some conflicting characterizations. Tim too was off, and know that I know him better, I feel it clearer. Dick, to me, was off too (but with all that happened before that point, I can see why). And Jason was psychotic and delusional kind of... too much. And very loud. Jason being very, very loud. Uhu, yeah, heh, so much in character. But whatever: it wasn't as bad as Morrison's afterwards, who I see as a completely new character entirely, for strong reasons that have to do with his behaviour. For me, behaviour is a moot point: you can change his past, his looks, even how he talks. But if you change his behaviour, if you change how a character acts and thinks so much, it's not that character again, not in this everchanging medium of corporate comics that is rebooting and remaking history and designs every few years. Not for me.

Heh, I really don't want to follow this discussion. It angries me a bit.

----------


## dietrich

I'm not disputing that Jason was a victim or that he needed help.

I believe that Dick as a hero and the head of the family should do his best to safe guard his family and protect the everyone. Help those who need it and that's what he did for Jason and where Jason was concerned. 

Dick prioritised the most vulnerable. Damian was more vulnerable. more traumatised and a heck of a lot more broken than Jason. He was alone. He had no one the last family he knew had disowned him because he chose to do good.

He was a minor [10yrs or less] alone at a critical point risking his life for others. I don't need to be a hero or even an adult to know who should take priority or what the right thing is for Dick to do. he should safe guard the minor who was trying to fix things. Dick did the right thing.

As for characters in Battle for the cowl being OCC or not it is canon and that is all that matters. I believe Damian taking a girl for a Joyride or strapping bombs to himself are OCC but they are canon so I have to accept it.

I can't pick and choose.

----------


## dietrich

> IIRC Batman hardly guest stared in the Robin solo,  if they teamed up it was usually in the Big Crossover stories, and occasionally in Batmans books (at least in the 90s).


My point is that Robin wasn't a constant in the Batman book like it was back when Dick and Jason were Robins.

----------


## Sergard

I agree with Zaresh. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when opinions diverge that drastically, a discussion becomes pointless.

----------


## dietrich

Shocker controversial opinions threads used for opinions. 

Anyway getting back to the discussion that was going on. I know it's wishful thinking hoping that Blud would prevent writers from dragging Dick into the Batman or making him take the cowl every time the need arises but I can't help it.

BludHaven I feel is essential to making Dick feel removed from the Batverse.

Nightwing is an Independent hero and not a Batman in waiting as I've said before.

----------


## Zaresh

> Shocker controversial opinions threads used for opinions


And we lay out ours, and even discussed them.
And it was going nowhere but the mad corner (for me, at least). So why continue with the discussion?

Edit: yeah, open new discussions (or previous, in this case) is better.
How do you guys feel about making Dick travel a road trip? After this Ric stuff is over, I mean.

----------


## Sergard

> Duke as a character needs his own logo, sunlight-themed hero with a bat on his face is mixed messaging at best and shamelessly bad branding at worst


It's more bat branding than bad branding  :Wink: 
But an own logo is always nice. Some kind of sun logo would be the obvious choice for Duke. But not something that's too close to Gnomon's sun symbol.

----------


## dietrich

> And we lay out ours, and even discussed them.
> And it was going nowhere but the mad corner (for me, at least). So why continue with the discussion?


You don't. I don't which is why I'm not.

----------


## Zaresh

> You don't. I don't which is why I'm not.


I saw your post before you edited to follow the discussion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It sounded like you were open to discuss more then.

Edit: just in case, I'm not trying to stir discussion. I'm explaining why I posted that. It's clearer now that you don't, either.

----------


## Valentonis

I think discussions like these ultimately come down to reader perspective vs character perspective. As readers we can look at BftC and BaR and see that Jason is acting in a way he wouldn't under another writer's pen, but the characters in the story don't have that type of foresight. They can only respond with what the writers give them to work with, and unfortunately with the way Jason was written in that era of batbooks, Dick kinda had his hands tied when it came to helping him.

Not trying to add fire to a discussion I can see is getting a little heated, just trying to give my viewpoint.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That is not true at all.
> 
> DC likes the name and promoting them as a duo but they don't actually want the two always working together.
> Tim was created to be an independent Robin and since the 90's Robin hasn't been a regular in the Bat books.
> 
> Before the new 52 Batman was in Robin's solo but not the other way around.


Independent Robin or other supporting cast work if they live someplace else, like Tim having his own home, parents, and school, or each of Robins if they stay in Titans Tower, but if they're supposed to live in Wayne Manor then they need to be in the story. At the very least they need to be mentioned, but some of these stories don't mention them at all

If it's been going on before New 52, then that just means the problem is bigger and older than I thought

----------


## Zaresh

> I think discussions like these ultimately come down to reader perspective vs character perspective. As readers we can look at BftC and BaR and see that Jason is acting in a way he wouldn't under another writer's pen, but the characters in the story don't have that type of foresight. They can only respond with what the writers give them to work with, and unfortunately with the way Jason was written in that era of batbooks, Dick kinda had his hands tied when it came to helping him.
> 
> Not trying to add fire to a discussion I can see is getting a little heated, just trying to give my viewpoint.


This is a pretty good addition, actually. It's insightful.

----------


## Sergard

> I think discussions like these ultimately come down to reader perspective vs character perspective. As readers we can look at BftC and BaR and see that Jason is acting in a way he wouldn't under another writer's pen, but the characters in the story don't have that type of foresight. They can only respond with what the writers give them to work with, and unfortunately with the way Jason was written in that era of batbooks, Dick kinda had his hands tied when it came to helping him.
> 
> Not trying to add fire to a discussion I can see is getting a little heated, just trying to give my viewpoint.


I also don't want to add fire to the discussion. I just want to add that it's not just the way Jason was written but also Dick. Morrison wrote a Dick who had his hands tied.
It still saddens me that Dick is one of the very few people who could have helped Jason. There are not many characters in the DC universe who knew Jason's story.
And Dick has connections. He could have asked the Justice League or the Titans for help in finding a place where Jason can't hurt others and where Jason doesn't get hurt.
A place where Jason's mental state/trauma could have been treated. Even sending Jason to the Phantom Zone would have been an act of mercy.

At the moment, I'm not even angry. I'm just sad.

----------


## CPSparkles

Jason's real dad and Grand mother were recently revealed to be alive and well I'm sure. Where were they during the time he came back and the time of his death?

Alfred I guess wasn't so close to Jason at the time when he came back I guess leading to him pushing Dick that it was his duty to take in and nurture Damian  as well as taking on all of Bruce's responsibilities. It's hard being the eldest.

I'm just curious why they [all 3] remained silent and sat on their hands.

Also how did Bruce handle Jason? Did they try to get him help? I didn't read much of Jason's time before Batman died. I followed Tim's books and I recall Jason trying to kill him at the TT's tower and Jason trying to kill Bruce and of course there was the time he pretended to be Nightwing. The time he had tentacles.

My gosh that was a thing that happened Jason had tentacles.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Independent Robin or other supporting cast work if they live someplace else, like Tim having his own home, parents, and school, or each of Robins if they stay in Titans Tower, but if they're supposed to live in Wayne Manor then they need to be in the story. At the very least they need to be mentioned, but some of these stories don't mention them at all
> 
> If it's been going on before New 52, then that just means the problem is bigger and older than I thought



Tim did live with his parents and had school. That was what made him special.

He was the one that showed that Robin can be independent. The 1st independent robin balancing his personal life with heroics.

Even after his was orphaned he maintained an apartment.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Also how did Bruce handle Jason? Did they try to get him help? I didn't read much of Jason's time before Batman died. I followed Tim's books and I recall Jason trying to kill him at the TT's tower and Jason trying to kill Bruce and of course there was the time he pretended to be Nightwing. The time he had tentacles.
> 
> My gosh that was a thing that happened Jason had tentacles.


We don't talk about the tentacles. Never happened! 

The thing I hate about the Pre New 52, and why Under Red Hood and Lost Days are the only Jason books I own from that time, was the way Jason was handled. They had no idea what to do with him: was a villain? An anti-hero? A psycho? A hero? All the above? He was handled very, very poorly, and after Dick became Batman, Jason was mostly used to be Dick's foil rather than his own character. Say what you want about the New 52, but I loved what they did to Jason, they gave him stability and, most importantly, sanity. Nowadays, I don't think I would be Jason fan if they kept him as his pre-New 52 psycho.

----------


## Tzigone

> He was the one that showed that Robin can be independent. The 1st independent robin balancing his personal life with heroics.


Well, no. Dick did it first. But Tim was the first to be an independent Robin while still being a minor.  I liked that about him. That he has his outside family/supporting cast and that his mentor wasn't his parent.  Also a difference I liked between Wally and Dick/Roy/Garth in the old days that I thought was much diminished in post-COIE, where Wally's family sucked and now so many people have this concept that Iris and Barry were his "real" parents, even if he didn't live with them, and that's so very much not what it was like back them. He was the most independent young hero. Even moreso than Tim, as he operated in another city, almost never acted as sidekick and didn't even know the Flash's identity for a while.

----------


## CPSparkles

> *We don't talk about the tentacles. Never happened! 
> *
> The thing I hate about the Pre New 52, and why Under Red Hood and Lost Days are the only Jason books I own from that time, was the way Jason was handled. They had no idea what to do with him: was a villain? An anti-hero? A psycho? A hero? All the above? He was handled very, very poorly, and after Dick became Batman, Jason was mostly used to be Dick's foil rather than his own character. Say what you want about the New 52, but I loved what they did to Jason, they gave him stability and, most importantly, sanity. Nowadays, I don't think I would be Jason fan if they kept him as his pre-New 52 psycho.


lol Gotcha.

----------


## Zaresh

> lol Gotcha.


There is probably a story behind why Brothers in Blood was so awful and has to do with editor's meddling, if I'm not recalling wrong the once time I read that story somewhere. And then there's a reason why we don't talk about that, even when I'm pretty sure most of us secretly think it was hilarious.

We don't talk about Jason's tentacles! xddddd

----------


## redmax99

> Jason's real dad and Grand mother were recently revealed to be alive and well I'm sure. Where were they during the time he came back and the time of his death?
> 
> Alfred I guess wasn't so close to Jason at the time when he came back I guess leading to him pushing Dick that it was his duty to take in and nurture Damian  as well as taking on all of Bruce's responsibilities. It's hard being the eldest.
> 
> I'm just curious why they [all 3] remained silent and sat on their hands.
> 
> Also how did Bruce handle Jason? Did they try to get him help? I didn't read much of Jason's time before Batman died. I followed Tim's books and I recall Jason trying to kill him at the TT's tower and Jason trying to kill Bruce and of course there was the time he pretended to be Nightwing. The time he had tentacles.
> 
> My gosh that was a thing that happened Jason had tentacles.


bruce put his head in the sand, just like every other hero when it came to jason and cass,well every big hero.

----------


## redmax99

> There is probably a story behind why Brothers in Blood was so awful and has to do with editor's meddling, if I'm not recalling wrong the once time I read that story somewhere. And then there's a reason why we don't talk about that, even when I'm pretty sure most of us secretly think it was hilarious.
> 
> We don't talk about Jason's tentacles! xddddd


wasn't editor meddling jason was to become nightwing in OYL when they killed dick but you know he didnt die. one writer still want to tell a jason and dick story so we got brother in blood instead.

----------


## Tzigone

> Jason's real dad and Grand mother were recently revealed to be alive and well I'm sure. Where were they during the time he came back and the time of his death?


Dead and not his grandma.  That's comic book continuity for you. It generally irritates when retcons make previous stories make no sense. Of course, we've rebooted the universe since then, and I at least find major retcons more palatable when they are different universes, because then they aren't even _supposed_ to be compatible.  I haven't actually read the New 52 version of Jason's death. I know that at one point Sheila was nixed and the Joker was annoyingly making plans for him back before he became Robin, but frankly, it's all a bit hazy.

----------


## Zaresh

> wasn't editor meddling jason was to become nightwing in OYL when they killed dick but you know he didnt die. one writer still want to tell a jason and dick story so we got brother in blood instead.


Ah, right. It was that, yes. You're right.
But there was a story for it behind, regardless! (XD)

----------


## kaimaciel

> Dead and not his grandma.  That's comic book continuity for you. It generally irritates when retcons make previous stories make no sense. Of course, we've rebooted the universe since then, and I at least find major retcons more palatable when they are different universes, because then they aren't even _supposed_ to be compatible.  I haven't actually read the New 52 version of Jason's death. I know that at one point Sheila was nixed and the Joker was annoyingly making plans for him back before he became Robin, but frankly, it's all a bit hazy.


In the N52, Catherine was Jason's birth mother, there was no Sheila. Joker implied that he was behind Jason becoming Robin in the first place, that was retconned/disproven by Bruce after the Death of the Family arc as one of Joker's lies.

----------


## Zaresh

> Dead and not his grandma.  That's comic book continuity for you. It generally irritates when retcons make previous stories make no sense. Of course, we've rebooted the universe since then, and I at least find major retcons more palatable when they are different universes, because then they aren't even _supposed_ to be compatible.  I haven't actually read the New 52 version of Jason's death. I know that at one point Sheila was nixed and the Joker was annoyingly making plans for him back before he became Robin, but frankly, it's all a bit hazy.


I don't think either Faye or Willis were good enough or in a place good enough to give Jason some kind of support/help/whatever. They're very flawed individuals, not really good people. They're bad people, actually, even if they somehow care. And well, going by current cont, Faye should've been in jail by that time (Batman got her in Jason's post-crisis story), and I doubt Willis knew Red Hood was Jason before Batman Inc. happened (if he got Wingman's costume because of that).

I mean, if we want to justify they not being there for him. Retcons are messy.

----------


## Tzigone

> In the N52, Catherine was Jason's birth mother, there was no Sheila. Joker implied that he was behind Jason becoming Robin in the first place, that was retconned/disproven by Bruce after the Death of the Family arc as one of Joker's lies.


Glad the puppet-master Joker is not/no longer canon.

----------


## Sergard

> bruce put his head in the sand, just like every other hero when it came to jason and cass,well every big hero.


Plot twist: Bruce' grandfather was an ostrich.

----------


## Zaresh

> Plot twist: Bruce' grandfather was an ostrich.


Now, now, this is a thematic thing with Gotham. First robins, then owls, now ostrichs...

----------


## Sergard

> Now, now, this is a thematic thing with Gotham. First robins, then owls, now ostrichs...


Be aware of Ostrichman - if he can't see you, you can't see him!

----------


## Zaresh

> Be aware of Ostrichman - if he can't see you, you can't see him!


XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I hate you so much. My father thinks that I've lost my marbles now. I wasn't prepared for that!!!

----------


## CPSparkles

> Dead and not his grandma.  That's comic book continuity for you. It generally irritates when retcons make previous stories make no sense. Of course, we've rebooted the universe since then, and I at least find major retcons more palatable when they are different universes, because then they aren't even _supposed_ to be compatible.  I haven't actually read the New 52 version of Jason's death. I know that at one point Sheila was nixed and the Joker was annoyingly making plans for him back before he became Robin, but frankly, it's all a bit hazy.


Ahh thanks for the info.

----------


## Stars & Stripes

> Now, now, this is a thematic thing with Gotham. First robins, then owls, now ostrichs...


Then you get flamebirds and bluebirds and whatever the hell kind of bird a nightwing is breaking up the pattern.

----------


## Tzigone

> Then you get flamebirds and bluebirds and whatever the hell kind of bird a nightwing is breaking up the pattern.


A Kryptonian one
Nightwing bird.jpg

----------


## Zaresh

> A Kryptonian one
> Nightwing bird.jpg


Yeah, and also, NW is also the God of Secrets and Shadows for the kryptonians (or something along that line. Flamebird was the god of creativity, life and fire or something?).

(Damn you, DC. I liked Chris)

----------


## Tzigone

> Yeah, and also, NW is also the God of Secrets and Shadows for the kryptonians (or something along that line. Flamebird was the god of creativity, life and fire or something?).
> 
> (Damn you, DC. I liked Chris)


I liked Chris, too. Another reason not to want Lois and Clark to have another child - she'll just be speed-aged up like the others.

Not sure how I feel about Nightwing and Flamebird being retconned to Kryptonian gods so much later, though.  Weirdly, I once saw someone say that the nature of the Kryptonian god was part of what Dick was (alone, a creature of darkness, etc.) and that was just so wrong-headed to me because that version of Nightwing, in the Kryptonian sense, didn't exist until way after Dick took the name, and when he took the name he was a daylight hero on a team.

----------


## Zaresh

> I liked Chris, too. Another reason not to want Lois and Clark to have another child - she'll just be speed-aged up like the others.
> 
> Not sure how I feel about Nightwing and Flamebird being retconned to Kryptonian gods so much later, though.  Weirdly, I once saw someone say that the nature of the Kryptonian god was part of what Dick was (alone, a creature of darkness, etc.) and that was just so wrong-headed to me because that version of Nightwing, in the Kryptonian sense, didn't exist until way after Dick took the name, and when he took the name he was a daylight hero on a team.


I think that they decided to give NW that background because original Nightwing (Dick) ended like a night hero in the end.
The concept itself was nice. Pulpy, which is something I always welcome; and it gave chirpy, clever Chris something different going for him that wasn't neither what the original Nightwing was, nor anything like any other member of the super cast had (and a cool costume and cool superpowers). Unfortunately, the story itself wasn't that good. The end was kind of a mess, as far as I recall.

----------


## Tzigone

> Unfortunately, the story itself wasn't that good. The end was kind of a mess, as far as I recall.


I didn't like the story at all. I read for Chris (and later Thara), not for the storyline. 

Chris seemed to be a Robin fan - I seem to recall him commenting on it before begin returned to the Phantom Zone the first time.  How does everyone feel about the idea of Robin having particular fans among the masses of the DC universe.  People (likely kids) who think Robin, rather than Batman, is the awesomest?  I like the idea.  Shouldn't be everyone, but a few random kids is cool.  People should only ever think Robin is joke if they're there to be proved wrong.

----------


## Zaresh

> I didn't like the story at all. I read for Chris (and later Thara), not for the storyline. I'd have rather he had typical Kryptonian powers, though. And kept Kon limited to tactile tk, only.
> 
> Chris seemed to be a Robin fan - I seem to recall him commenting on it before begin returned to the Phantom Zone the first time.  How does everyone feel about the idea of Robin having particular fans among the masses of the DC universe.  People (likely kids who think Robin, rather than Batman, is the awesomest?  I like the idea.  Shouldn't be everyone, but a few random kids is cool.  People should only ever think Robin is joke if they're there to be proved wrong.


I can't remember when he did, but I remember him commenting that too, and me thinking "that's a nice touch". Edit: I've been trying to remember, and it wasn't in Last Son, I'm almost sure (but maybe you're right. I don't own a copy, unfortunately). It was much later, I think. I such at remembering this stuff. Edit again: nevermind, you're right. It has to be in Last Son.

I think it's very likely that there're more fans of the "sidekicks" out there in-universe. It's just that there aren't a lot of young heroes, or young characters, that aren't under some 7-big influence. Featured outside those "sidekicks" books, I mean.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

they should expunge Joker's 'Red Hood falling into Ace Chemicals' origin from canon. The Joker being evil because he fell into chemicals takes a lot of the intrigue out of the character. His backstory should always be ambiguous. Hell I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the bleached skin and made him look more in line with Heath Ledger or Joequin Phoenix with the makeup.

----------


## Tzigone

> they should expunge Joker's 'Red Hood falling into Ace Chemicals' origin from canon. The Joker being evil because he fell into chemicals takes a lot of the intrigue out of the character. His backstory should always be ambiguous. Hell I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the bleached skin and made him look more in line with Heath Ledger or Joequin Phoenix with the makeup.


I agree that his backstory should be shrouded in mystery. I didn't realize the chemical origin was still in-continuity.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> I agree that his backstory should be shrouded in mystery. I didn't realize the chemical origin was still in-continuity.


Well it was in Zero Year. It’s probably always been canon since they introduced Red Hood in the silver age, one way or another. Which is why it’s probably controversial that I think the character is better off without it.
I get the appeal of Batman being partially responsible for the Joker becoming what he is. But I think Joker is more interesting when you know nothing about him. And getting rid of the bleached skin, making him appear like a regular human being. Idk, I think that makes him more disturbing than him just being some chemical monster.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Tim did live with his parents and had school. That was what made him special.
> 
> He was the one that showed that Robin can be independent. The 1st independent robin balancing his personal life with heroics.
> 
> Even after his was orphaned he maintained an apartment.


That is not the problem, my problem is, in a shared universe that DC tries to sell, they seem to want to have both, have the Batman and Robin brand and while making Robin stay away from him, and they do it without a good explanation.

Tim is not a problem here. Tim having his own world and supporting cast is a good example of how to do it right, but with Damian, for example, he's supposed to be living in Wayne Manor but often not even mentioned. That's the problem. That's the thing that breaks the story for me. 
Like I said before, Tim's house, academy, Titans Tower, Hudson University, are not included in the problem I brought up because they provide a good explanation of why the Robins are gone. 

I'm talking specifically when they're gone, not in the story, Gotham or Manor but there's not even a mention where they are, and this I see often in New 52 or Rebirth.

----------


## Restingvoice

Nevermind. Misread.

----------


## TheRay

> And having canonical kids.


Why do his sidekicks have to be his children?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Why do his sidekicks have to be his children?


Well, why can't they be his sidekicks? All of Bruce's kids were sidekicks, adopted or otherwise. Having a kid with Starfire, they would be half-alien as well.

----------


## phantom1592

> I didn't like the story at all. I read for Chris (and later Thara), not for the storyline. 
> 
> Chris seemed to be a Robin fan - I seem to recall him commenting on it before begin returned to the Phantom Zone the first time.  How does everyone feel about the idea of Robin having particular fans among the masses of the DC universe.  People (likely kids) who think Robin, rather than Batman, is the awesomest?  I like the idea.  Shouldn't be everyone, but a few random kids is cool.  People should only ever think Robin is joke if they're there to be proved wrong.


I think it's always been in-universe that Robin was awesome. Admittedly it was Dick Grayson... the sidekick who was inspirational enough that all the young heroes look to him as a defacto leader. In the real world Robin was more popular than Batman and showing up in more adventures than he was... because he was the character that kids could relate to and wished they were... no reason that couldn't bleed over into the DC universe too.  Robin's the kid with no powers but still leads the titans and is partner to Batman...   

Admittedly just like the real world... the name 'Robin' carries so much history and power, that I don't think anyone really cares WHO is wearing the mask... but if they're Robin than they must have ths stuff.

----------


## CPSparkles

> That is not the problem, my problem is, in a shared universe that DC tries to sell, they seem to want to have both, have the Batman and Robin brand and while making Robin stay away from him, and they do it without a good explanation.
> 
> Tim is not a problem here. Tim having his own world and supporting cast is a good example of how to do it right, but with Damian, for example, he's supposed to be living in Wayne Manor but often not even mentioned. That's the problem. That's the thing that breaks the story for me. 
> Like I said before, Tim's house, academy, Titans Tower, Hudson University, are not included in the problem I brought up because they provide a good explanation of why the Robins are gone. 
> 
> I'm talking specifically when they're gone, not in the story, Gotham or Manor but there's not even a mention where they are, and this I see often in New 52 or Rebirth.


well that's not what your 1st post was about. Robin is at the TT's tower then. Does that help? he has 2 homes and you can read and see him there so I don't see what the problem is.

I mean Cass is also living at Wayne manor and is working in Gotham but we don't see her at least we know where Robin is.

Dc doesn't have a Batman and Robin Brand. They Have The Batman Brand and they have The Robin Brand.

They are separate. Damian and Dick were the 1st time we had that book.

----------


## Aahz

> well that's not what your 1st post was about. Robin is at the TT's tower then. Does that help? he has 2 homes and you can read and see him there so I don't see what the problem is.
> 
> I mean Cass is also living at Wayne manor and is working in Gotham but we don't see her at least we know where Robin is.


At the moment, but there were times were he wasn't a member of the Titans, or when Duke was also living at the Manor ...

There have really been times where the wrter made a better job in keeping track were every one is.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think it's always been in-universe that Robin was awesome. Admittedly it was Dick Grayson... the sidekick who was inspirational enough that all the young heroes look to him as a defacto leader. In the real world Robin was more popular than Batman and showing up in more adventures than he was... because he was the character that kids could relate to and wished they were... no reason that couldn't bleed over into the DC universe too.  Robin's the kid with no powers but still leads the titans and is partner to Batman...   
> 
> Admittedly just like the real world... the name 'Robin' carries so much history and power, that I don't think anyone really cares WHO is wearing the mask... but if they're Robin than they must have ths stuff.


Robin was never more popular than Batman.

----------


## redmax99

> Robin was never more popular than Batman.


yes he was, why do you think there so many kid sidekicks nowadays. dick was the reason there was a bucky and a teenage spiderman. comics were trying to copy the essence and popularity of robin not to mention detective comics sold more once robin appeared.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Robin was never more popular than Batman.


he was back in the Golden age

----------


## CPSparkles

> At the moment, but there were times were he wasn't a member of the Titans, or when Duke was also living at the Manor ...
> 
> There have really been times where the wrter made a better job in keeping track were every one is.


You are not wrong there.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Question is what are sidekicks in the DC universe? In a sense what is the way, Dick would be with his sidekick than Bruce? Are sidekicks just mentees or something else? Plus any names for his sidekicks? If they were his kids. I feel that should come later now the line

----------


## redmax99

> Question is what are sidekicks in the DC universe? In a sense what is the way, Dick would be with his sidekick than Bruce? Are sidekicks just mentees or something else? Plus any names for his sidekicks? If they were his kids. I feel that should come later now the line


dick tried out little wing for jason in one year later and little wing for tim in a young justice story and before anyone say no he didnt it was the title of the story for dick and tim hanging out

----------


## TheManhunterfromMars

Jason Todd evolved better as individual character than Dick ever did. I don´t like Dick starring a solo, I think he fits better in teams

----------


## Restingvoice

> Question is what are sidekicks in the DC universe? In a sense what is the way, Dick would be with his sidekick than Bruce? Are sidekicks just mentees or something else? Plus any names for his sidekicks? If they were his kids. I feel that should come later now the line


Sidekicks are apprentices and field assistants. 

Bruce acts differently to his sidekicks depend on the era.
In  Golden Age, he acts as a combination of big brother, father, uncle and mentor, very casual and having fun
In the modern era where things are more realistic, he demands perfection because if they're not good they're dead, and he says upfront that he won't be a father only to get emotionally attached anyway.

The big difference between Dick and Bruce I think is Bruce demands his apprentices to follow his rule to the letter but Dick doesn't demand change. He gives them time to be themselves and grow at their own pace. 

Damian didn't respect him at first because he thinks he's a poor replacement, but once he went off on his own and fail to save someone, he realized that he's still incapable, and when Dick still rescued and believe in him, he started to respect him. 

He's also able to read what his charges are thinking and give them an alternative. 

Like with Ravager, he knows she's taught to be an assassin, and he doesn't demand her to instantly change or pretend she's not a killer, but he provides an alternative to settle disputes that don't involve killing people, and give a good reason for it that she can believe, such as "we need them alive so we can interrogate them or lead us to their boss"

Bruce is more hammer and nail. 

"You fail to win against 100 gangsters, Helena, even though I give that task because I believe you could, so you're not in" and they have to prove things in a different way to gain his approval. Batman finally complimented Helena when she managed to give him a list of all the mob in Gotham, which is beyond what he asked or care for her.  

With Stephanie, it's "one mistake and you're out"

----------


## phantom1592

> Robin was never more popular than Batman.


I've heard otherwise. Especially back in the golden age when he was promoted in everything from Batman, Detective, World's finest, and Star Spangled Comics. Popularity is a fleeting thing and depends from person to person... but obviously DC saw him as a cash cow and kids responded to him.

----------


## TravelerInTheDark

I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.

Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.
> 
> Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.


That's on the writer though. They can write him as a likable character and have a family at the same time

----------


## Rakiduam

> Jason Todd evolved better as individual character than Dick ever did. I don´t like Dick starring a solo, I think he fits better in teams


Has Jason ever starring a solo?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Has Jason ever starring a solo?


Red Hood Lost Days from when he first revived until returning to Gotham as Red Hood
Red Hood Outlaw from when he lost Artemis and Bizarro until they return

----------


## AmiMizuno

With the Nightwing solos vs team is really is on the writer. He has been given good runs. It really has to be established what is Nightwing’s  mythos outside Batman. What does he do. Who does he hang outside of Teen Titans and Bats. It’s important to make sure Nightwing has his own set of rules

----------


## Rakiduam

> I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.
> 
> Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.


Yes, I agree. From time to time someone manages to use the familly succefully, I think Morrison did it, and even then ignoring some of them. But the cannibalization effect has intensified since the new 52, the city, the characters and the mithos have been watered down. And Bruce has been portrayed like a jerk to keep conflicts going.




> Red Hood Lost Days from when he first revived until returning to Gotham as Red Hood
> Red Hood Outlaw from when he lost Artemis and Bizarro until they return


Oh, Ok, then I'm not impressed with Jason as an individual character.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.
> 
> Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.


i think it's more that Batman has begun to go downhill in character and ideals since Dixon, so he suddenly "needs" all these people.

----------


## Ansa

> Yes, I agree. From time to time someone manages to use the familly succefully, I think Morrison did it, and even then ignoring some of them. But the cannibalization effect has intensified since the new 52, the city, the characters and the mithos have been watered down. And Bruce has been portrayed like a jerk to keep conflicts going.


I wouldn't say so, King's run was mostly Batman solo or Batman and Selina and he was still an ass.

Other stories that show him with his family bring his nicer and lighter side to shine.

I think the problem is that a lot of writers want to be the new Miller or someone similar and think the only way they'll be taken seriously or get attention is if they write Bruce even darker than before.
Hitting a sidekick in the face is cheaper drama than actually putting some thought into interesting character interaction. Most of the time beef with Batman isn't even adressed in the main book.
You could read King's run and not need to know what he did to Jason in RHatO, why Ric doesn't like Bruce or why Damian is also angry at him.

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason Todd evolved better as individual character than Dick ever did. I don´t like Dick starring a solo, I think he fits better in teams


He he, I think the other way around.

I think Dick works better when he's alone in his book, not as a team. And I do like Titans.
Jason for me works a lot better when he's in a book with a team dynamic, most of the time because having people around himself usually has made him be his best version of himself. He also is a character that benefits of interacting with others to show his range of voice, so to speak. Works with a lot of different types of personalities in his team, which is something I can't say of others. He's the kind of a facilitator than a leader, too,, which is something I like. And ge makes for a great "lancer" role, when he's not the leader of a team.

I also think that Dick had a better evolution as a character than Jason. It's just that currently we had  a clearer direction for him than for Dick. But the period from 2004 to 2011 had a lot of problems for him as a character.

(I don't know if I made myself clear, I'm currently a bit too sick to write something properly)

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.
> 
> Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.


Yep. It's not necessarily the fault of the characters', but there really isn't much for me to like the whole package together. I'm not overly interested in a lot of the Bat-Family members, though some of them I can enjoy in small doses, but not enough to constantly have them around and most of the time Bruce is just a flat, boring character they orbit around.




> i think it's more that Batman has begun to go downhill in character and ideals since Dixon, so he suddenly "needs" all these people.


But they aren't really helping him go back uphill. If anything, sometimes they make it worse because Bruce needs to act like an abusive asshole to give their stories some drama.

For Batman himself, I often have to go back to much older comics or other media to actually enjoy him, and most of the time that includes a much smaller Bat-Family or none at all. I think he works better as a character without all these hangers on. Their inclusion in the Bat-mythos often benefits them (because it gives them a spotlight) but seldom the actual main character.

----------


## Restingvoice

lol Batman has been the least interesting character whenever the family and villains are around because his default mode is "brood" just like every other character whose default mode is "brood" 

They often become the butt of the joke because nobody goes to a party just to stand around sulkily. 
He's still the smartest person in the room though, so if there's trouble at the party, the rest, whether the family of Justice League will defer to him for a solution. 

Saying the family makes Batman boring or abusive is disingenuous when he's not like that with the Justice League. So who decides to write him that way? 

Why do they need to give drama, even? The family consists of some very colorful personalities that became the life of the party with snarks and jokes. They're not the ones in need of drama because their personality and banters make up for it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> lol Batman has been the least interesting character whenever the family and villains are around because his default mode is "brood" just like every other character whose default mode is "brood"


His default personality should not be brood though. He didn't used to be that way. Back in the Bronze Age (which is the best Batman, IMO) he had a much more varied personality set.

----------


## Ansa

I honestly don't understand why you're even complaining.

85 issues of Tom King's Batman: Family is almost non-existent.
1 Batman issue by Tynion: No family
Detective Comics by Tomasi: Except for one arc, no family
The Batman's grave: No family
Batman Damned: No family
Batman Universe: Except for one issue with Nightwing, no family.
Doomsday Clock: No family
Batman/Superman: No family
Batman White Night: Except for Dick and Barbara here and there, no family.
Justice League: Family appeared once in a group shot and said like two sentences.

Batman appearances in RHato, Nightwing, Teen Titans and Young Justice have been minimal or didn't happen at all for over a year.

The family is not the problem if you don't like current Batman.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I honestly don't understand why you're even complaining.
> 
> 85 issues of Tom King's Batman: Family is almost non-existent.
> 1 Batman issue by Tynion: No family
> Detective Comics by Tomasi: Except for one arc, no family
> The Batman's grave: No family
> Batman Damned: No family
> Batman Universe: Except for one issue with Nightwing, no family.
> Doomsday Clock: No family
> ...


It can be one of the problems. And they've been around (and growing) since the Dixon days, so it's not like it's just the comics from the last few years. 

Anyway, this is the controversial opinions thread. Not everyone has to love the Bat-Family. Gotham is filled with a bunch of uninteresting spin off characters and they may or may not have a hand in Batman being a boring, one note brooding patriarch, but one can dislike it all around.

----------


## Sergard

I've just read Supersons of Tomorrow for the first time. Well ... "read". (I didn't read every dialog. Some character depictions rubbed me the wrong way and some scenes were just ... I don't know.)
Unfortunately I don't remember if I ever called Savior!Tim "evil", but in case I did, I take it back. (But I still don't like the Savior costume and identity.)
I also take the "evil Damian versions" back. There isn't any detailed information about the Damian of Savior!Tim's future in order to have a clear picture of his character. (And the other evil Damian I remembered was just some hallucination in an animated movie.)

Since yesterday I've been thinking about the word "evil" and how difficult it is to describe. The internet suggests different definitions and so far I haven't found one that coincides with my perception (Wikipedia has a nice article about the topic). Thinking about "evil" sheds also a new light on the term "villain". Until now I was under the impression that a villain is always an evil person. But I realized that's not true, at least not for me. There are a lot of villains that I don't consider evil, in a few occasions they are not even "bad".

----------


## Restingvoice

> His default personality should not be brood though. He didn't used to be that way. Back in the Bronze Age (which is the best Batman, IMO) he had a much more varied personality set.


I agree. Especially someone who has experience dealing with children since the beginning of his career. The authors can argue that the brood is back because he lost his kids but we know it's because they just want him to be a cool solitary figure of their personal preference since they retcon that depiction even during Dick's Robin days.




> Since yesterday I've been thinking about the word "evil" and how difficult it is to describe. The internet suggests different definitions and so far I haven't found one that coincides with my perception (Wikipedia has a nice article about the topic). Thinking about "evil" sheds also a new light on the term "villain". Until now I was under the impression that a villain is always an evil person. But I realized that's not true, at least not for me. There are a lot of villains that I don't consider evil, in a few occasions they are not even "bad".


Evil is a conscious, deliberate, selfish act to cause harm, physically or psychologically. 
It's not self-defense, not accident, not to protect someone, and not beneficial except to the perpetrator, although the perpetrator may claim otherwise or pretend that their actions benefit someone else. 

In a narrative, the term Villain is often used in exchange with Antagonist, just like Hero and Protagonist, but a story Antagonist is not always Evil and the Protagonist is not always Good, they're just in opposition, but a Hero is usually defined by their selflessness.

----------


## Gotham citizen

I'm sorry if I seem pedantic, but I think can be interesting say the word villain derives from the latin word villanus, which means farmhand, because a villanus was an ill-mannered person (often a slave) make wicked by the hard life he lived, so a villain doesn't has to be an evil person: he can be a good person turned in a wicked one by some disgrace. The villain is became synonyms of antagonist, because the hero is almost always also the good guy of the story, but there are a lot of characters who are "villain-heroes" (Punisher, Catwoman…); we calls them anti-heroes.

----------


## Zaresh

Mmmm...

For Selina to be antiheroic, she would have to still do something not only for her sake and profit, but for others too. Does she? I don't know her well enough.

I guess Frank would count, because his is a crusade against the bad guys, technically. But again, I don't follow Punisher well enough to tell.

----------


## Gotham citizen

Selina helped often Batman and she didn't do that for money. Good examples of that are show in the miniseries Catwoman of 1989, Catwoman Defiant, Birds of Pray (Batgirl/Catwoman) and Birds of Prey (Catwoman/Oracle), so I think she can be called anti-heroine. Same thing for the Punisher: he fight the crime using their same methods because they need a punishment, but the justice seems unable to give them that punishment; like it was said in "Punisher year one".

----------


## Zaresh

> Selina helped often Batman and she didn't do that for money. Good examples of that are show in the miniseries Catwoman of 1989, Catwoman Defiant, Birds of Pray (Batgirl/Catwoman) and Birds of Prey (Catwoman/Oracle), so I think she can be called anti-heroine. Same thing for the Punisher: he fight the crime using their same methods because they need a punishment, but the justice seems unable to give them that punishment; like it was said in "Punisher year one".


Alright them  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Rise

> He he, I think the other way around.
> 
> I think Dick works better when he's alone in his book, not as a team. And I do like Titans.
> Jason for me works a lot better when he's in a book with a team dynamic, most of the time because having people around himself usually has made him be his best version of himself. He also is a character that benefits of interacting with others to show his range of voice, so to speak. Works with a lot of different types of personalities in his team, which is something I can't say of others. He's the kind of a facilitator than a leader, too,, which is something I like. And ge makes for a great "lancer" role, when he's not the leader of a team.
> 
> I also think that Dick had a better evolution as a character than Jason. It's just that currently we had  a clearer direction for him than for Dick. But the period from 2004 to 2011 had a lot of problems for him as a character.
> 
> (I don't know if I made myself clear, I'm currently a bit too sick to write something properly)


I'm someone who usually prefer team books over solo books, but Jason is in desperate need of a good solo book to prove that he can stand on his own.

RH: Outlaw was unfortunately built on a weak premise from the beginning and Lobdell had no idea what to do with him. He moved from refusing to kill to suddenly shooting Penguin live in national tv and burning people alive to "weeeell, I actually didn't plan to kill penguin..." (then, why the heck did you kill bunch of random gangsters?) to running a casino and now apparently he become a teacher to bunch of wannabe-villain kids. This literally all happened in 15 issues which is crazy and not in good way. 

Red Hood can work well and shine brighter in a solo than a team book. He just needs someone who knows how to write a solo book with him.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm someone who usually prefer team books over solo books, but Jason is in desperate need of a good solo book to prove that he can stand on his own.
> 
> RH: Outlaw was unfortunately built on a weak premise from the beginning and Lobdell had no idea what to do with him. He moved from refusing to kill to suddenly shooting Penguin live in national tv and burning people alive to "weeeell, I actually didn't plan to kill penguin..." (then, why the heck did you kill bunch of random gangsters?) to running a casino and now apparently he become a teacher to bunch of wannabe-villain kids. This literally all happened in 15 issues which is crazy and not in good way. 
> 
> Red Hood can work well and shine brighter in a solo than a team book. He just needs someone who knows how to write a solo book with him.


I don't know, @Rise. I'm thinking about the kind of characters that work well for me in a solo book, and they are not much like Jason (the closer would be Moon Knight). Maybe with the right writer, but, I don't know. What would you had in mind for him in a solo run? Sell me the idea  :Big Grin:  (I'm very open to change my mind)

----------


## Sergard

> I don't know, @Rise. I'm thinking about the kind of characters that work well for me in a solo book, and they are not much like Jason (the closer would be Moon Knight). Maybe with the right writer, but, I don't know. *What would you had in mind for him in a solo run? Sell me the ide*a  (I'm very open to change my mind)


Should we move the discussion to the Jason Todd Thread? Exchanging story ideas doesn't sound very controversial.

----------


## Zaresh

> Should we move the discussion to the Jason Todd Thread? Exchanging story ideas doesn't sound very controversial.


You're right. I'll move it there.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So when Bruce dies who becomes Batman? I mean I can't see Tim doing it. Dick I generally don't want to. I mean Damian isn't ready.

----------


## TheManhunterfromMars

Batwoman is an awful character and probably the worst member of the bat family

----------


## The tall man

> So when Bruce dies who becomes Batman? I mean I can't see Tim doing it. Dick I generally don't want to. I mean Damian isn't ready.


Actually I think no one should, Batman was born with Bruce and should die with him. Besides does Bruce even want a successor, is he actively grooming anyone to replace him in the future? I think it's the complete opposite, he would actively discourage anyone from taking up the mantle and encourage them to find their own path. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if he has a protocol in place to seal or destroy the Batcave after his death. So no I don't think there should be another Batman after Bruce, he is the one and only Batman. Anyone else who takes up the mantle will always be seen as a pretender.

----------


## Caivu

> Batwoman is an awful character and probably the worst member of the bat family


What's your reasoning? What makes her an "awful" character?

----------


## Restingvoice

> So when Bruce dies who becomes Batman? I mean I can't see Tim doing it. Dick I generally don't want to. I mean Damian isn't ready.


The first time he died it was Dick. He didn't want to but he realized the necessity of people thinking Batman is still alive because the villains are not as scared to the rest of the family compared to Batman.

The second time it was Gordon, with backing from the government and GCPD, but it didn't work as well because it's limited by their official capacity as law enforcers, they ban the Bat-family, and the villain that showed up is just too strong.




> Actually I think no one should, Batman was born with Bruce and should die with him. Besides does Bruce even want a successor, is he actively grooming anyone to replace him in the future? I think it's the complete opposite, he would actively discourage anyone from taking up the mantle and encourage them to find their own path. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he has a protocol in place to seal or destroy the Batcave after his death. So no I don't think there should be another Batman after Bruce, he is the one and only Batman. Anyone else who takes up the mantle will always be seen as a pretender.


He has a protocol to clone himself and transfer his memory and trauma to the next clone so Batman will be the exact same character with the exact same obsession to fight crime, but this is a new addition, and one of the machines was destroyed by Alfred.

In a DCeased, he has prepared a suit for Damian, he just didn't expect him to use it so soon.

In Batman Beyond, he forces himself to be Batman until he can't move properly anymore and closed shop until Terry came along. In this version, he has a bad relationship with Dick and Tim so he couldn't ask them. 

In Rebirth, when he thought he's about to die, he recommends Duke to go to Dick to continue their mentorship, but mention nothing about Batman.

So, in general, he doesn't ask any of his kids to become Batman, but he has some sort of preparations anyway. He has no protocol to destroy the Batcave, most likely because he knows the family is going to use it, even if they're not Batman.

----------


## Mutant God

> So when Bruce dies who becomes Batman? I mean I can't see Tim doing it. Dick I generally don't want to. I mean Damian isn't ready.


Terry McGinnis

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is he cannon in main earth or just multiverse?

----------


## redmax99

main verse future ends brought them to main earth

----------


## Restingvoice

Batman Beyond is canon in New 52 but the canon status in Rebirth is questionable since Rebirth introduces a lot of alternate futures while the character and story that leads up to New 52 Batman Beyond is no longer canon.

----------


## The tall man

Controversial opinion more about Batman than the family, I have absolutely no problem with the Batgod perception of Batman. The guy as trained his body and mind to be at the pinnacle of human potential and is always pushing himself to greater heights. But somehow some see this as a bad thing. Batman is the only character that some want to be less effective/competent or not the best. Not so for others. Superman must always be the strongest, the best hero. Wonder woman must always be the best warrior, but Batman must be scaled back; he should not be so capable, I don't get it. Jordan and Brady are considered the best in their fields because they train and push themselves to be the best. Bruce did the same and beyond, so I have no issues with him being the best fighter, detective, strategist, tactician, ect. He has earned it over a lifetime of training and dedication. Now that doesn't mean he shouldn't struggle or face adversity, that he shouldn't face setbacks or losses but when he wins people shouldn't start shouting Batgod. Every victory Batman has is earned and he deserves all of them.

----------


## Agent Z

> yes he was, why do you think there so many kid sidekicks nowadays. dick was the reason there was a bucky and a teenage spiderman. comics were trying to copy the essence and popularity of robin not to mention detective comics sold more once robin appeared.


That doesn't mean he was more popular than Batman. Batman also has his share of copycats too.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Does Tim need to be adopted? Why can’t he out of all the robins actually be just have a normal life then became Robin? His parent are still alive and didn’t die. It would be nice to have some of the Batfam not live crazy or sad lives.  Bat woman had a reason is dark. Now I’m not saying something bad can’t happen but his parents can still be alive

----------


## Blue22

I actually do like that about Tim too. I like the other Robins 
still considering him their brother, but I also thought I was cool that he seemed to be the only Robin who was allowed to have normal and living parents.

----------


## Wrestler

> Controversial opinion more about Batman than the family, I have absolutely no problem with the Batgod perception of Batman. The guy as trained his body and mind to be at the pinnacle of human potential and is always pushing himself to greater heights. But somehow some see this as a bad thing. Batman is the only character that some want to be less effective/competent or not the best. Not so for others. Superman must always be the strongest, the best hero. Wonder woman must always be the best warrior, but Batman must be scaled back; he should not be so capable, I don't get it. Jordan and Brady are considered the best in their fields because they train and push themselves to be the best. Bruce did the same and beyond, so I have no issues with him being the best fighter, detective, strategist, tactician, ect. He has earned it over a lifetime of training and dedication. Now that doesn't mean he shouldn't struggle or face adversity, that he shouldn't face setbacks or losses but when he wins people shouldn't start shouting Batgod. Every victory Batman has is earned and he deserves all of them.


Thanks for this!

----------


## CPSparkles

> Terry McGinnis


Damian then Terry.

Ideally it goes the way it did in Batman 700  Terry;s introduction to the main DCu universe and his 1st canon appearance.
Damian saves baby Terry  then raises him, trains him and his cave support similar to Bruce's role in BB

----------


## Ansa

> It can be one of the problems. And they've been around (and growing) since the Dixon days, so it's not like it's just the comics from the last few years. 
> 
> Anyway, this is the controversial opinions thread. Not everyone has to love the Bat-Family. Gotham is filled with a bunch of uninteresting spin off characters and they may or may not have a hand in Batman being a boring, one note brooding patriarch, but one can dislike it all around.


Yes, this is a controversial opinion threat and I'm telling you why I don't think your reasoning for disliking modern Batman makes much sense. Batman has had many solo books and stories for years that have the same Batman personality problem you guys keep complaining about. In fact there are so many it would take forever to write them down so I only used recent examples.
And I'm not telling you to love the batfamily. I'm explaining to you why your reasoning is bad.

----------


## phantom1592

> I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.
> 
> Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.



I've been saying that for years. Dick and Tim were great. I loved them... but pretty much everyone else took more then they gave.  Batman used to be the the great detective using cutting edge tech...  Then he started asking Oracle to remotely pick locks and study blueprints over his comms… He used to be the best fighter... then Cass came and took that title. Azrael was 'scary Batman'  Spoiler was 'New Tim'. Eventually Batman became a shadow of what he should have been... just to give everyone else stuff that they could excel at. 

Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is personal preference, but I definitely felt an extended family diluted the Darknight Detective. 





> Actually I think no one should, Batman was born with Bruce and should die with him. Besides does Bruce even want a successor, is he actively grooming anyone to replace him in the future? I think it's the complete opposite, he would actively discourage anyone from taking up the mantle and encourage them to find their own path. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if he has a protocol in place to seal or destroy the Batcave after his death. So no I don't think there should be another Batman after Bruce, he is the one and only Batman. Anyone else who takes up the mantle will always be seen as a pretender.


DC wants there to be a Batman. Bruce Wayne would not. The only way 'New Batman' means anything... is if the rest of the city doesn't realize there IS a 'new' batman. They have to still be scared of the same old unkillable, inhuman, creature of the night that they always were... And of course they'd never fool Two-face, Penguin or Joker... so it's really just the petty thugs he wants the fear put into. 

I just don't see Bruce ever planning or expecting for Nightwing to 'die' and Batman to keep going. He's always been focused on raising these kids to be their best possible and create their own identities. But adding in 'Unless I die, then someone else has to kill their own personal ambitions and keep mine alive. 

That's just DC pushing their trademarks and $$$$.   So IF it ever happened... somone certainly WOULD take the identity, but no, nobody SHOULD... and Bruce wouldn't WANT them to. 

If the city knew Batman died.... they'd still be just as scared of getting tore up by Azrael, Arkham Knight, or Nightwing…Heck, if Green Arrow moved to town, they'd be just as concerned about an Arrow. It doesn't need 'Batman' specifically.

----------


## Blue22

Terry's honestly the only other Batman I'll accept. Even if I did enjoy Dick's time in the role, I'll still always prefer *all* Robins growing into their own identities rather than taking on an name and responsibility that Bruce wouldn't want for any of them. That is a hill I will die on XD

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## SiegePerilous02

> Controversial opinion more about Batman than the family, I have absolutely no problem with the Batgod perception of Batman. The guy as trained his body and mind to be at the pinnacle of human potential and is always pushing himself to greater heights. But somehow some see this as a bad thing. Batman is the only character that some want to be less effective/competent or not the best. *Not so for others. Superman must always be the strongest, the best hero. Wonder woman must always be the best warrior, but Batman must be scaled back;* he should not be so capable, I don't get it. Jordan and Brady are considered the best in their fields because they train and push themselves to be the best. Bruce did the same and beyond, so I have no issues with him being the best fighter, detective, strategist, tactician, ect. He has earned it over a lifetime of training and dedication. Now that doesn't mean he shouldn't struggle or face adversity, that he shouldn't face setbacks or losses but when he wins people shouldn't start shouting Batgod. Every victory Batman has is earned and he deserves all of them.


Not so for Superman and Wonder Woman, there can be considerable pushback from other fanbases about their strength.

And Batman gets pushback as the Batgod because he often punches above his weight class, often to the detriment of the super powered hero he takes out, who usually have to forget their skill sets to give him a fighting chance. A Batgod to an extent is needed to justify having him in the JL, which is why Morrison writes the best Bat-God. Because he wrote EVERYONE as a god in his JL run. And in his Batman run he demonstrated how Bruce's Bat-God traits in his own wheelhouse, but his ultimate plan to defeat the Hyper Adapter was still to bring it to the present day and have the JL take care of it. Which is still pretty badass on its own.

----------


## phantom1592

> Controversial opinion more about Batman than the family, I have absolutely no problem with the Batgod perception of Batman. *The guy as trained his body and mind to be at the pinnacle of human potential* and is always pushing himself to greater heights. But somehow some see this as a bad thing. Batman is the only character that some want to be less effective/competent or not the best. Not so for others. Superman must always be the strongest, the best hero. Wonder woman must always be the best warrior, but Batman must be scaled back; he should not be so capable, I don't get it. Jordan and Brady are considered the best in their fields because they train and push themselves to be the best. Bruce did the same and beyond, so I have no issues with him being the best fighter, detective, strategist, tactician, ect. He has earned it over a lifetime of training and dedication. Now that doesn't mean he shouldn't struggle or face adversity, that he shouldn't face setbacks or losses but when he wins people shouldn't start shouting Batgod. Every victory Batman has is earned and he deserves all of them.


I have trouble with Batgod when he goes BEYOND the pinnacle of Human potential.  Even by comic book standards he gets completely unrealistic. Being the best detective, psychologist, criminologist, is one thing... as are fields that help him there... chemistry, poisons, medicine, forensics...not to mention one of the greatest fighters in the world. Sure he's spent decades becoming the best he can to beat crime in Gotham... That's who he is and what makes him special. 

However, When/Where does he gain the ability to develop teleporters, build/repair Red tornado, build mech suits that can defeat Darkseid… Brother Eye... the list goes on. 'Because he's Batman' is just a lame reasoning for the crap he pulls off.  When he's capable of finding fool proof method of stopping Martian Manhunter and hypersonic bullets for Flash, plans to stop Green Lantern and wonder woman.... but can't seem to stop Killer Croc or Clayface… and can't even keep Joker or Two-face locked up...  He really needs to question his priorities.  :Wink:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yes, this is a controversial opinion threat and I'm telling you why I don't think your reasoning for disliking modern Batman makes much sense. Batman has had many solo books and stories for years that have the same Batman personality problem you guys keep complaining about. In fact there are so many it would take forever to write them down so I only used recent examples.
> And I'm not telling you to love the batfamily. I'm explaining to you why your reasoning is bad.


My reasoning is my own. His personality is a wider problem, but him gradually becoming more insufferable coincides with the Dixon days where the family started to get expanded. So for me, there are few examples of all these characters coinciding with a Bruce I actually like and I find a lot of them uninteresting even on their own.

----------


## The tall man

> Not so for Superman and Wonder Woman, there can be considerable pushback from other fanbases about their strength.
> 
> And Batman gets pushback as the Batgod because he often punches above his weight class, often to the detriment of the super powered hero he takes out, who usually have to forget their skill sets to give him a fighting chance. A Batgod to an extent is needed to justify having him in the JL, which is why Morrison writes the best Bat-God. Because he wrote EVERYONE as a god in his JL run. And in his Batman run he demonstrated how Bruce's Bat-God traits in his own wheelhouse, but his ultimate plan to defeat the Hyper Adapter was still to bring it to the present day and have the JL take care of it. Which is still pretty badass on its own.


With regards to punching above his weight class I would say its because he out thinks his superpowered opponent. In a fight/battle between a superpowered person of average intelligence with no skill in tactics and strategy, and a non-powered person in top physical condition with genius level intellect and and expertise in tactics and strategy who wins? My money is on the guy who can out think, outwit and outmaneuver his opponent. And that is the definition of who Batman is and what he does. He plans, he studies, he preps. He knows everyone has a weakness and he finds it and exploits it. So I have no problem with him defeating individuals above his weight class because he works for it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> With regards to punching above his weight class I would say its because he out thinks his superpowered opponent. In a fight/battle between a superpowered person of average intelligence with no skill in tactics and strategy, and a non-powered person in top physical condition with genius level intellect and and expertise in tactics and strategy who wins? My money is on the guy who can out think, outwit and outmaneuver his opponent. And that is the definition of who Batman is and what he does. He plans, he studies, he preps. He knows everyone has a weakness and he finds it and exploits it. So I have no problem with him defeating individuals above his weight class because he works for it.


Except a lot of his peers in the JL are above average in intelligence and no slouches in terms of skills, tactics or strategy, as are their villains. The worst examples are when they don't even both with the pretense of him planning, he just defies logic and does impossible things he shouldn't be able to. 
Batman has no business doing stuff like out running Darkseid's Omega Beams or punching out the Cheetah with a single blow to the face (who has taken hits from Wonder Woman, nothing Batman does is going to be able to harm her). 

Most of his strategies against Superman involve Kryptonite, and at this point Superman has more than enough experience surviving Lex Luthor, who is even smarter than Batman and actually murderous in intent, doing the same thing that Batman is kind of screwed if Supes ever goes full evil and stops screwing around.

----------


## phantom1592

> Most of his strategies against Superman involve Kryptonite, and at this point Superman has more than enough experience surviving Lex Luthor, who is even smarter than Batman and actually murderous in intent, doing the same thing that Batman is kind of screwed if Supes ever goes full evil and stops screwing around.


YES!! Around the Batman V Superman came out I had similar discussions with my friends. Batman's all powerful tactics and genius plan to fight superman always seems to be...  kryptonite and power armor... The EXACT thing that he's been overcoming for 80+ years now...   

It's like Batman given enough time and planning came up with the sure fire way to beat Spider-man. and decides 'Mechanical Tentacles!!! He'll NEVER be able to beat THAT!! :P

----------


## Agent Z

> I've been saying that for years. Dick and Tim were great. I loved them... but pretty much everyone else took more then they gave.  Batman used to be the the great detective using cutting edge tech...  Then he started asking Oracle to remotely pick locks and study blueprints over his comms He used to be the best fighter... then Cass came and took that title. Azrael was 'scary Batman'  Spoiler was 'New Tim'. Eventually Batman became a shadow of what he should have been... just to give everyone else stuff that they could excel at. 
> 
> Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is personal preference, but I definitely felt an extended family diluted the Darknight Detective. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DC wants there to be a Batman. Bruce Wayne would not. The only way 'New Batman' means anything... is if the rest of the city doesn't realize there IS a 'new' batman. They have to still be scared of the same old unkillable, inhuman, creature of the night that they always were... And of course they'd never fool Two-face, Penguin or Joker... so it's really just the petty thugs he wants the fear put into. 
> 
> ...


Bruce's detective skills have always been considerably overrated given the guys he usually deals with aren't known for their subtlety and in some cases like the Riddler, _want_ to be caught. Also, good detective work is not a solo venture. It involves consulting experts in other fields.

And Bruce was never the best fighter. He was getting schooled by the likes of Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger long before Cass was ever created. Not that I understand why fans care about this so much when him being a detective is supposed to be what he's known for.

----------


## Fergus

> I've been saying that for years. Dick and Tim were great. I loved them... but pretty much everyone else took more then they gave.  Batman used to be the the great detective using cutting edge tech...  Then he started asking Oracle to remotely pick locks and study blueprints over his comms He used to be the best fighter... then Cass came and took that title. Azrael was 'scary Batman'  Spoiler was 'New Tim'. Eventually Batman became a shadow of what he should have been... just to give everyone else stuff that they could excel at. 
> 
> Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is personal preference, but I definitely felt an extended family diluted the Darknight Detective.


Tim Took a lot from Batman. The Detective who is at said to be on par or better than Bats. He builds super AI's and buildings that repair themselves. Sometimes he steals Batman personality. RR solo series he pretty much became Batman 2.0

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## phantom1592

> Tim Took a lot from Batman. The Detective who is at said to be on par or better than Bats. He builds super AI's and buildings that repair themselves. Sometimes he steals Batman personality. RR solo series he pretty much became Batman 2.0


That took a lot of time, and I would argue it didn't REALLY happen until Damian took HIS role away. The Tim of the 90's and Dixon years shone on his own, but when he was Batman supported his character. His detective skills and computer skills and anything else was always credited as 'Having a lot of potential, and could someday in the future be the best...'  As Robin, he always had a lot to learn. At least till they started breaking the character around OYL and Identity Crisis... Then by the time Red Robin came around, they had to amp everything about him just to try and keep him relevant. 

But Tim as 'the perfect Robin', kept that balance of 'not as wild as Jason and not as skilled as Dick to a very 'human' level. He supported Batman without taking away from him. 





> Bruce's detective skills have always been considerably overrated given the guys he usually deals with aren't known for their subtlety and in some cases like the Riddler, _want_ to be caught. Also, good detective work is not a solo venture. It involves consulting experts in other fields.
> 
> And Bruce was never the best fighter. He was getting schooled by the likes of Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger long before Cass was ever created. Not that I understand why fans care about this so much when him being a detective is supposed to be what he's known for.


Not really. Sherlock Holmes has always been the model for the 'perfect detective'. He's pretty much a one man show and someone to chronicle his adventures.  Hercule Poirot, Jessica Fletcher, Sam Spade... I haven't read all their adventures but they set the film versions are them finding the clues and then determining what they mean. Maybe unrealistic in the real world, but in fiction... one man regularely does it all. The Genius detective is pretty much a whole genre now on Tv. 

As for Best fighter, depends on who's writing him. In the first appearance of Shiva when she wanted to fight, he described it as it being like a gunslinger, and everyone wanting a shot at the best... and then beat her easily. 

Whether he was the absolute bestest best puncher in the whole wide world is irrelevant, but he was certainly up there, and between his endless training, techniques, and tricks... he's always manages to pull off the win, and usually with just enough effort to make it an interesting story.

----------


## Agent Z

> Not really. Sherlock Holmes has always been the model for the 'perfect detective'. He's pretty much a one man show and someone to chronicle his adventures.


Holmes is also not the ubermensch that fans have elevated him into. In the original stories Watson wasn't that far behind Holmes in the intelligence department and it was stressed that anyone could do what he did if they really put their minds to it.




> Whether he was the absolute bestest best puncher in the whole wide world is irrelevant,


You're the one who said he was.




> but he was certainly up there, and between his endless training, techniques, and tricks... he's always manages to pull off the win, and usually with just enough effort to make it an interesting story.


Bruce is still a great martial artist. He just has others that are equal to or better than him. And the number of people who can match or outfight him based on skill alone isn't even large.

----------


## Godlike13

That role was never HIS. He was an contributor but not its owner. Legacy giveth, legacy taketh away.

Also who gives a crap if someone can karate chop better. Martial arts is so overrated.

----------


## Agent Z

> That role was never Tim’s. Legacy giveth, legacy taketh away.
> 
> Also who gives a crap if someone can karate chop better. Martial arts is so overrated.


Apparently not when it comes to Bruce.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yes, this is a controversial opinion threat and I'm telling you why I don't think your reasoning for disliking modern Batman makes much sense. Batman has had many solo books and stories for years that have the same Batman personality problem you guys keep complaining about. In fact there are so many it would take forever to write them down so I only used recent examples.
> And I'm not telling you to love the batfamily. I'm explaining to you why your reasoning is bad.


The funny thing is that the biggest victim of Bruce's abuse is Dick Grayson and the first instance of Bruce being abusive goes at least as far back as the Silver Age. The only thing reducing the Batfamily will accomplish is limiting Bruce's victim to one person.

To say nothing of his dickery to other superheroes like the Justice League.

----------


## Gotham citizen

You understand the writers got everything wrong, when the readers start to think the hero is an abusive character and his sidekicks are his first victims.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How different would things be if Tim was just not adopted but had his parents? I mean majority of the Batfam have their parents died or family die. In some timeline or another.

----------


## RachelGrey

> Except a lot of his peers in the JL are above average in intelligence and no slouches in terms of skills, tactics or strategy, as are their villains. The worst examples are when they don't even both with the pretense of him planning, he just defies logic and does impossible things he shouldn't be able to. 
> Batman has no business doing stuff like out running Darkseid's Omega Beams or punching out the Cheetah with a single blow to the face (who has taken hits from Wonder Woman, nothing Batman does is going to be able to harm her). 
> 
> Most of his strategies against Superman involve Kryptonite, and at this point Superman has more than enough experience surviving Lex Luthor, who is even smarter than Batman and actually murderous in intent, doing the same thing that Batman is kind of screwed if Supes ever goes full evil and stops screwing around.


I thought they did a great job in Batman Hush the animated movie.  They showed how frightening it can be to fight Superman, he nearly killed Batman, if Clark hadn't woken up when Catwoman threw Lois off the building, Clark was just on the verge of killing Bruce.  They really presented it that Bruce, even with Kryptonite was barely able to delay Superman long enough for Catwoman to get Lois.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The funny thing is that the biggest victim of Bruce's abuse is Dick Grayson and the first instance of Bruce being abusive goes at least as far back as the Silver Age. The only thing reducing the Batfamily will accomplish is limiting Bruce's victim to one person.
> 
> To say nothing of his dickery to other superheroes like the Justice League.


Beyond the typical cartoony Silver age dickery (which is applicable to almost every character, Dick Grayson included), Bruce's abuse towards Dick is mostly retroactive due to stuff like the post-COIE tweaks to the dissolution of their partnership and stuff like Dixon's godawful Nightwing: Year One. Beyond that, the two could be jerks to each other but also hashed it out and made up like actual adults, like the pre-retcon (and vastly superior) story of Dick becoming Nightwing. I might actually like the larger Bat-Family more if they were built up around the pre-COIE guy instead of the douche the likes of Miller, Dixon, Rucka and Brubaker left us. 

The JL is a similar issue, but none of them have permanent homes in the Bat-books. 




> I thought they did a great job in Batman Hush the animated movie.  They showed how frightening it can be to fight Superman, he nearly killed Batman, if Clark hadn't woken up when Catwoman threw Lois off the building, Clark was just on the verge of killing Bruce.  They really presented it that Bruce, even with Kryptonite was barely able to delay Superman long enough for Catwoman to get Lois.


That actually sounds a little better than the comic version, which itself isn't as bad as other examples.

----------


## Agent Z

> Beyond the typical cartoony Silver age dickery (which is applicable to almost every character, Dick Grayson included), Bruce's abuse towards Dick is mostly retroactive due to stuff like the post-COIE tweaks to the dissolution of their partnership and stuff like Dixon's godawful Nightwing: Year One. Beyond that, the two could be jerks to each other but also hashed it out and made up like actual adults, like the pre-retcon (and vastly superior) story of Dick becoming Nightwing. I might actually like the larger Bat-Family more if they were built up around the pre-COIE guy instead of the douche the likes of Miller, Dixon, Rucka and Brubaker left us.


The earlier stages of the New 52 drastically reduced the Batfamily and we still got an abusive Batman, one arguably worse than anything that had come before (well except for Miller's ASBAR). Look at what he did to Dick after Forever Evil where Dick had been tortured, unmasked and nearly killed on live television. He fakes Dick's death without even consulting him and then verbally and physically beats him down for getting his identity exposed forcing him to go undercover. 

The wider Batfamily gets blamed for Bruce's character derailment into an abusive control freak but most of his vile moments have nothing to do with them and the biggest victim of Bruce's cruelty is Dick, the original Robin. Reducing or removing the Bat family won't make Bruce a better person. The writers will just have him be an asshole to other people. Hell, I'd make the argument he's treated the JL members worse than most of his kids so why aren't we seeing more calls for him to be removed from the League?

----------


## Pohzee

The New 52 Batfamily was still too big.

----------


## Tzigone

I think it's just correlation, rather than causation, with post-COIE-and-beyond Batdick and the expanded family.  Much like Alfred becoming his parental figure and his increasing emotionally-unhealthy state.  They happened in the same era, but don't really have anything to do with each other.  Post-COIE Bruce also tends to treat other heroes like crap fairly frequently.  The way he treats the fam abusively is a symptom of his changed characterization to a jerk, rather than their presence causing him to be jerk.

Dixon is weird one to me - I liked a lot of his 90s Batfam stuff. I mean, he had some good Bruce & Dick moments. But then there was some crap, too, and it got much worse later. Nightwing: Year One was really unreadable to me, and I deeply disliked Batgirl: Year One.  Robin: Year One started well, but went downhill. And, I will say that for me, Bruce was going downhill by 1999.  Some put it after NML, but it was definitely during for me (at latest), and there were problems before that. Late 80s Batman was frequently crappy to other heroes when not in his own book, too, really. But there was still some good stuff in the early-to-mid-90s. By the NML, though, the bad outweighed the good for me.  It's not fair of me perhaps - there's certainly been some good with Bruce and how he treats others since - but late 90s is the crossover point to me when I go to only reading Batman if there's a specific story that sounds interesting or a writer I've heard good things about.




> The writers will just have him be an asshole to other people. Hell, I'd make the argument he's treated the JL members worse than most of his kids so why aren't we seeing more calls for him to be removed from the League?


Well, I wouldn't be opposed...seriously, I've said before that there are times when Bruce has been so abusive to people that it would be better for them to just excise him from their lives and not interact with him anymore at all (oh, the early 2000s). That it would be much healthier for them.  I'd read everyone else and be fine with letting Batman go.  He could be the loner so many want him to be.  I guess his abusive nature wouldn't be as  noticeable if there was no one around for him to be abusive to, but that's not the solution I'm looking for.

But I cannot deny that the Batman who treats people that way moves product and makes money for DC.  So we'll get more of him, no doubt.


I will agree that the original Robin-to-Nightwing transition was so much better.  But the change is not one that I think was made to further Dick's character (emotional journey, etc.) by casting Bruce in  bad light. It wasn't Dick's existence that caused Batman to be made to look bad. I think the idea of an emotionally stunted Batman was popular at the time - and it has held on since. Likewise, the way he treated Jason in recruiting him (calling Robin instead of Jason, later saying he took him in because he missed Dick, etc.) was, I think, to the same end.  The idea of Batman that couldn't relate healthily to others was what they were going for.  It was _about_ Bruce.  The kids were just a means to that end.  Also, perhaps, though, it was a way to keep Dick more separate, I don't know. I doubt it, though, since he was adequately separate without all that pre-COIE.  And I think Bruce the Leaguers the way he does because writers/fans perceive that to make more of a badass, and more awesome. I don't agree with that, but I do think it is the mindset.

Part of it, too, is that family often took a dive in more recent comics.  Once Hal got along fantastically with both his brothers.  Wally wrote letters about how awesome his parents were.  Later, for the sake of "realism" (seriously, a loving electronics engineer dad is less realistic than a Manhunter dad?) or more accurately for drama, a lot of inter-family relationships got worse.  Some in bronze age, some post-COIE, and some even later.  That's unfortunate to me.  I don't mind a character created with a bad family relationship, but I don't like it retconned on relationships that were previously good.

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## SiegePerilous02

> The earlier stages of the New 52 drastically reduced the Batfamily and we still got an abusive Batman, one arguably worse than anything that had come before (well except for Miller's ASBAR). Look at what he did to Dick after Forever Evil where Dick had been tortured, unmasked and nearly killed on live television. He fakes Dick's death without even consulting him and then verbally and physically beats him down for getting his identity exposed forcing him to go undercover.


Tzigone said it better than me: it's more correlation than causation. Writers like Dixon who built up the modern Bat-Family and the dynamics between them also laid the foundation for Bruce to become the horribly abusive asshole he can be exaggerated as now. It's not that the two ideas are necessarily or deliberately linked, it's just unfortunate timing. Beyond that it's gotten to the point where Batman is now a jerk regardless of who he is around, but that still doesn't leave a lot of examples of stories where there is a larger Bat-Family and Batman being likeable at the same time. If other media like films and serialized cartoons can expand the Bat-Family more while keeping Bruce likeable it will be a better take. 

The New 52 Bat-Family was reduced, but not as drastically as you make it sound. Four Robins squeezed into a five year timeline is still way too big. It was basically only missing Cass and Steph and had them added back in later, with the additions of Duke and Harper. 




> Dixon is weird one to me - I liked a lot of his 90s Batfam stuff. I mean, he had some good Bruce & Dick moments.* But then there was some crap, too, and it got much worse later. Nightwing: Year One was really unreadable to me, and I deeply disliked Batgirl: Year One.  Robin: Year One started well, but went downhill.* And, I will say that for me, Bruce was going downhill by 1999.  Some put it after NML, but it was definitely during for me (at latest), and there were problems before that. Late 80s Batman was frequently crappy to other heroes when not in his own book, too, really. But there was still some good stuff in the early-to-mid-90s. By the NML, though, the bad outweighed the good for me.  It's not fair of me perhaps - there's certainly been some good with Bruce and how he treats others since - but late 90s is the crossover point to me when I go to only reading Batman if there's a specific story that sounds interesting or a writer I've heard good things about.


Yeah those are all REALLY bad as far as Bruce is concerned. I don't think Dixon writes the character well at all.
And honestly, while he has a solid grasp on Dick and Babs, you can get better writing for both elsewhere.

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## lemonpeace

the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...

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## SiegePerilous02

> the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...


That could be part of the trend that makes people think it's too big...

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## lemonpeace

> That could be part of the trend that makes people think it's too big...


I find it silly because people often aim it at characters created post-New 52 (characters that are usually underutilized anyway) as if new these characters are the herald of the end times. even subtracting Batman Inc, the Batfamily wasn't much smaller. it just seems like one of those fandom things where people need to show how much of a fan they are by complaining about non-problems and sucking the fun out of the properties they claim to "love"

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## Tzigone

> Yeah those are all REALLY bad as far as Bruce is concerned. I don't think Dixon writes the character well at all.
> And honestly, while he has a solid grasp on Dick and Babs, you can get better writing for both elsewhere.


It's his writing of Barbara I don't like in Batgirl: Year One. I really dislike the post-COIE convention of her being a protege of Bruce. Of starting off incompetent. I loathe the power-imbalace of them knowing her identity for so long when she didn't know theirs. I hate Bruce granting permission for her to work or giving her supplies (the rope).




> the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...


For the record, I really don't like the concept of Batman Incorporated at all.  And, while I like Damian and would not get rid of him, I would not have given Bruce a biological child.  It definitely leads to a difference in perception and treatment of the others (like a reboot where he's still Bruce's kid, and no one else is).  

I liked Tim better when his dad was alive.  And I just never could get into Cass, but think she should be present.  I do like Barbara, Dick, Tim, and Steph.  I preferred Steph as Spoiler, not Batgirl. Don't like Barbara running Bruce's tech support/doing his research/operating out of his building.  Dick, as an adult, should only visit, definitely not live in Gotham. I liked Duke (though not the concept of We Are Robin), but prefer him not with Batman and not operating out of Batman's cave (I'd ever prefer he not use a headquarters built by Batman as in mini). I do think the Duke and Damian vibe can work well. Like him with Riko and Izzy, too, of course.  Can't say I read any of the others, but nothing about them was interesting enough to make me want to read New 52 (which I have issues with changed Tim origin, Dick a late-teen when recruited, Dick and Barbara de-aged, etc. so it would take a bit to get me to read).  I'm not into anti-heroes so don't read Jason (and he was all over the map, to say the least, in post-COIE), but he was fine as a kid, and I don't like the bad-seed-victim-blaming tactic DC went with at all.

So, for me, it's that I haven't read a lot of the New 52 characters, and they aren't important to the Batfamily or mythos to me. So I'm willing put them on the chopping block to devote time and attention to the characters I do like. But that doesn't mean I think then new characters themselves are the problems.

Edit: And I forgot, because I so don't include them in the Batfamily. Helena Bertinelli is fine, but she doesn't need to be part of the Batfam.  Jean Paul Valley is pretty forgettable/droppable to me, despite his participation in a major storyline.  And I never remember Harold.  And am willing to lose Leslie as part of Bruce's life (simply keeping her clinic as one Wayne funds in adulthood) and not have her a secretkeeper.

----------


## phantom1592

> I thought they did a great job in Batman Hush the animated movie.  They showed how frightening it can be to fight Superman, he nearly killed Batman, if Clark hadn't woken up when Catwoman threw Lois off the building, Clark was just on the verge of killing Bruce.  They really presented it that Bruce, even with Kryptonite was barely able to delay Superman long enough for Catwoman to get Lois.


As much as I hated the Superman: Sacrifice storyline... I loved the fact that it showed a 'real' Superman v Batman fight.   Superman was tricked into thinking that he was fighting someone else... Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid I can't remember which one this was,  but in reality he was fighting Batman.   Next issue shows Batman in the Watchtower in a full body cast on life support while Superman looks sad/guilty...

----------


## kaimaciel

> I liked Tim better when his dad was alive.  And I just never could get into Cass, but think she should be present.  I do like Barbara, Dick, Tim, and Steph.  I preferred Steph as Spoiler, not Batgirl. Don't like Barbara running Bruce's tech support/doing his research/operating out of his building.  Dick, as an adult, should only visit, definitely not live in Gotham. I liked Duke (though not the concept of We Are Robin), but prefer him not with Batman and not operating out of Batman's cave (I'd ever prefer he not use a headquarters built by Batman as in mini). I do think the Duke and Damian vibe can work well. Like him with Riko and Izzy, too, of course.  Can't say I read any of the others, but nothing about them was interesting enough to make me want to read New 52 (which I have issues with changed Tim origin, Dick a late-teen when recruited, Dick and Barbara de-aged, etc. so it would take a bit to get me to read).  *I'm not into anti-heroes so don't read Jason (and he was all over the map, to say the least, in post-COIE), but he was fine as a kid, and I don't like the bad-seed-victim-blaming tactic DC went with at all.*


Oof, the Pre-New 52 victim-blaming was everywhere. I love the Hush comic but Bruce's line "I always knew Dick had talent. Jason only had rage." always bothers me. Someone made an article a while back with every single time Jason was either demeaned or blamed for his own murder, I had no idea how frequent it was until I read it. Some were even incorrect, with characters saying that Jason rushed in to face the Joker and disobeyed Batman: he didn't. Jason was lured by his mother to a warehouse to talk, neither he or Bruce knew she was working with the Joker. 

The funny thing is, during both the New 52 and Rebirth, Jason took all responsibility for his death. He never blamed Bruce. During Rebirth he had a whole comic "talking" with his Robin self and telling him that he died because he went alone, his last words were "Bruce... I'm sorry..."

----------


## Tzigone

Yeah, like I said, I'm not even a Jason fan, but the way that character was treated still makes me angry.

----------


## Aahz

Batman should be again a deputized member of the GCPD.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Batman should be again a deputized member of the GCPD.


I would actually be 100% fine with this.

I want Batman hanging out with them at parties and singing Christmas carols with them again.

----------


## Frontier

> Batman should be again a deputized member of the GCPD.


_Arrow_ kind of lost it's luster for me when they made Green Arrow and Team Arrow SCPD deputies. I get why they did it, it was kind of interesting, but it just didn't do it for me like them being mysterious, masked, vigilante's. 

There are Superheroes I can buy being deputized. Superman? Sure. But not really modern Batman.



> It's his writing of Barbara I don't like in Batgirl: Year One. I really dislike the post-COIE convention of her being a protege of Bruce. Of starting off incompetent. I loathe the power-imbalace of them knowing her identity for so long when she didn't know theirs. I hate Bruce granting permission for her to work or giving her supplies (the rope).


If we're talking strictly about Year One, I don't think she started off incompetent. She was just a rookie, and the identity thing didn't really last that long before everyone knew who everybody was. 

It was also less Bruce granting her permission and more Babs making it clear she would keep doing this with or without his permission, so he thought it better to be involved in molding her as a hero instead of letting her do this without supervision.

----------


## Tzigone

> If we're talking strictly about Year One, I don't think she started off incompetent. She was just a rookie, and the identity thing didn't really last that long before everyone knew who everybody was.


It's been a long time since I read it - I recall her jumping off with a pretty regular rope that immediately broke. That's pretty incompetent to me - she'd have immediately been dead if not for the intervention of others.  Apologies if I am misremembering.  And it may not have lasted "that long" (how long?), but it was a very definite power imbalance.  He had all the control, all the power.




> It was also less Bruce granting her permission and more Babs making it clear she would keep doing this with or without his permission, so he thought it better to be involved in molding her as a hero instead of letting her do this without supervision.


You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to - either way, it's set up for him to allow it. You can say she _would_ have done it without him being okay with it, but what it comes down to is him "allowing" it.




> so he thought it better to be involved in molding her as a hero instead of letting her do this without supervision.


Which is vastly inferior to the original where she did not need him to mold or teach her.  And, again, a very definitely power imbalance with her made subordinate to him.  Not okay with me.


Actually, I have a real issue with second-gen (not Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman who were made second gen by JSA being moved to same earth, but the actual later ones - bronze or post-COIE introductions) in the post-COIE era, especially, needing to prove their mettle or be approved or guided or molded by first-geners. It's not all of them, but I hate it.  Those heroes, for the most part, got to operate on their own, with no one else's interference.  To be totally independent, without needing instruction or validation from anyone else or having anyone show up to criticize them.  And be awesome from the start.  Too often with newer heroes, they have get validation (or worse, correction) from the older heroes to be deemed worthy or respected, and that does not work for me.  Not with adults (kids are something of a different story).

Also, Batman acting like the King of Gotham who gets to forbid other heroes from working there - not okay with me.  One of the reasons I mark his Batjerkness to No Man's Land at latest.

----------


## Rakiduam

> the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...


Why? One is supposed to be a family, the other an enterprise. One is crammed in Gotham, the other operate internationally, nevermind that Batman INC had a very specific objective.

----------


## Caivu

> Why? One is supposed to be a family, the other an enterprise. One is crammed in Gotham, the other operate internationally, nevermind that Batman INC had a very specific objective.


They're hardly "crammed" when they'd each be responsible for patrolling, at the absolute minimum, 6 square miles (it's really more like 10 at minimum).

----------


## Frontier

> It's been a long time since I read it - I recall her jumping off with a pretty regular rope that immediately broke. That's pretty incompetent to me - she'd have immediately been dead if not for the intervention of others.  Apologies if I am misremembering.  And it may not have lasted "that long" (how long?), but it was a very definite power imbalance.  He had all the control, all the power.


Again, rookie mistake. 

He may have been presented in control but we had Barbara challenging and rebelling against it. 



> You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to - either way, it's set up for him to allow it. You can say she _would_ have done it without him being okay with it, but what it comes down to is him "allowing" it.


But I think the point is less just him accepting her and more that she forced him to do it, providing more agency on her part. 



> Which is vastly inferior to the original where she did not need him to mold or teach her.  And, again, a very definitely power imbalance with her made subordinate to him.  Not okay with me.


Well, I mean, she was technically in the same position as Robin and, depending on how you look at Robin, in-practice he's supposed to be a partner and not a subordinate/sidekick. So she wouldn't necesarilly have been a subordinate, but a partner in her own right. 



> Actually, I have a real issue with second-gen (not Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman who were made second gen by JSA being moved to same earth, but the actual later ones - bronze or post-COIE introductions) in the post-COIE era, especially, needing to prove their mettle or be approved or guided or molded by first-geners. It's not all of them, but I hate it.  Those heroes, for the most part, got to operate on their own, with no one else's interference.  To be totally independent, without needing instruction or validation from anyone else or having anyone show up to criticize them.  And be awesome from the start.  Too often with newer heroes, they have get validation (or worse, correction) from the older heroes to be deemed worthy or respected, and that does not work for me.  Not with adults (kids are something of a different story).


I think that's realistic for any situation where you have these pioneers who are the first to really cultivate and start a new field on their own and then new, younger, people come in and try their hand at it and try to prove themselves. 



> Also, Batman acting like the King of Gotham who gets to forbid other heroes from working there - not okay with me.  One of the reasons I mark his Batjerkness to No Man's Land at latest.


It does lead to Batjerk but I usually tend to think he has good reasons for wanting to do it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay, I'm just gonna ask straight up

Does DC intend for Batgirl to be subordinate to Batman? Yes or No?

...and you can write the reason below that, because Yes and No is not 10 characters lol

I say yes because, after Batgirl Year One, unless I miss anything, her next origin is New 52, which goes like this
- Barbara admires Batman and wants to be like him
- He stole a suit from a GCPD to fight an escaped criminal and Batman complimented him for it
- She made her own suit and operate independently for a year until she's drafted officially to join Batman and Robin
- A year passed, she made a mistake that's never clarified, got fired by Batman, retired and went to college
- Killing Joke happened, Batman silently regrets it

Then once New 52 started
- Barbara returned as Batgirl, fully funded by Batman
- When she thought accidentally killed her brother, she thought she doesn't deserve to wear the symbol and cut it off
- After Damian died, still in regret she asked to be made Robin since she doesn't feel she deserved to be Batgirl

She doesn't feel like an independent character until Burnside. She's fed up at Batman after Death of The Family and fed up at Gotham in general because she can't save her father who was framed, so she moved out to gather herself. She lost her Batman funded suit in a fire, so she made her own and also made crimefighting apps while continuing her study.

So independent in fact that the Burnside creators wanted to retcon The Killing Joke until Rebirth happened.

I don't know if it's already started in Batgirl Year One, but from your discussion, it sounds like they're going there, and during New 52 they're fully in.

----------


## Rise

> .........





> .......


Batfamily isn't hurting Batman, it's the writers who love cheap drama or simply incompetent are hurting him. I would even say their existence and variety are what helped Batman becoming a bigger brand.

As for Batgirl needing his permission. As long as she (and anyone else) carry his symbol and associated with him, Batman absolutely has an authority over how she operates in Gotham. That doesn't mean he has the right to ban people from his city because this is stupid.


And I just realized that I never posted any controversial opinion here despite having many and here's one of mine. 

While I do believe that Damian's existence did undermine Batman's relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim, I have no problem with him loving Damian more than them. It's already great of him to take care of other people's children and give them home, but he isn't terrible nor selfish for caring more about Damian because it's natural and he has more responsibility and obligation towards him.

----------


## Aahz

> _Arrow_ kind of lost it's luster for me when they made Green Arrow and Team Arrow SCPD deputies. I get why they did it, it was kind of interesting, but it just didn't do it for me like them being mysterious, masked, vigilante's. 
> 
> There are Superheroes I can buy being deputized. Superman? Sure. But not really modern Batman.


I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.

And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.

----------


## Frontier

> I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.
> 
> And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.


The government in Gotham strikes me as the type who would be slow to officially accept something like that. Batman and the GCPD have always had an unspoken agreement that I think works better.

----------


## jetengine

I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an asshole, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" shit could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an asshole, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" shit could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.


Agreed, it should always be about standards. Being a crimefighter in Gotham ought to be dangerous and not everyone should be able to match up

----------


## Aahz

> The government in Gotham strikes me as the type who would be slow to officially accept something like that. Batman and the GCPD have always had an unspoken agreement that I think works better.


The government of Gotham has not really been a factor for at least an decade at this point.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an asshole, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" shit could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.


The my City thing would also make more sense if he was officially sanctioned.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an asshole, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" shit could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.


I second this




> The government in Gotham strikes me as the type who would be slow to officially accept something like that. Batman and the GCPD have always had an unspoken agreement that I think works better.


Yeah, officially sanction means there's less conflict. 

I think I'll hold off on officially sanctioned until at least when Batman is known as a member of the Justice League because that's when people and government will be comfortable enough to officially sanction him.

Oh, and there will still be detractors within the GCPD and government of course. The corrupt ones will continue working to overturn that sanction.




> I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.
> 
> And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.


Oh, I missed reading this. Yeah, I agree it make sense for him to be deputized if he's a known member of the League. At least for show. 




> The government of Gotham has not really been a factor for at least a decade at this point.


It should be since it's implied they're being steered by The Court, but they rarely do that except for The Court storyline... which make sense, but I kinda want there to be always a looming threat, because without that The Court only looks like quirky rich people who like to arrange overly complicated plot to either bring a Bat God to the world or recruit Dick Grayson again. They're on their third attempt right now, I believe.




> While I do believe that Damian's existence did undermine Batman's relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim, I have no problem with him loving Damian more than them. It's already great of him to take care of other people's children and give them home, but he isn't terrible nor selfish for caring more about Damian because it's natural and he has more responsibility and obligation towards him.


People may not like to hear this but some dads do feel self-conscious if it's his biological children, and it does play into the insecurity of the adoptive children. I just wish this is the kind of family drama that DC actually tackle, instead of the power player at WB/DC deliberately prioritizing Damian in marketing because HEY HE HAS A SON NOW! DID WE MENTION HE HAS A SON?

----------


## Ansa

> I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an asshole, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" shit could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.


This only works if Bruce is written as a highly competent hero though. Another reason why King's run didn't work for me. That Bruce had no business telling anyone what to do.

----------


## Ansa

> People may not like to hear this but some dads do feel self-conscious if it's his biological children, and it does play into the insecurity of the adoptive children. I just wish this is the kind of family drama that DC actually tackle, instead of the power player at WB/DC deliberately prioritizing Damian in marketing because HEY HE HAS A SON NOW! DID WE MENTION HE HAS A SON?


I understand why a lot of fans are bothered by this, but if you take a look at the way Bruce has been written for the last few years, why would you even want Bruce to be your father?
He teaches you how to communicate through punches, beats you half to death if you cross his lines, abandons you for months and if you confront him with that fact he gives you a lame excuse that Gotham is in danger...well no shit Sherlock, that's what happens when you leave Gotham in the hands of Bane for several months. If even Deathstroke, out of all people, thinks Bruce sucks as a father, you know it's bad.

----------


## Korath

I don't know if it's controversial or not, but I think Tom King made a terrible mistake at the end of his rn by giving unlimited Superman-like powers to Gotham-Girl. She undermines the whole of Gotham if she uses them correctly, or just comes out as woefully incompetent if she doesn't. And it's really sad in both cases.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't know if it's controversial or not, but I think Tom King made a terrible mistake at the end of his rn by giving unlimited Superman-like powers to Gotham-Girl. She undermines the whole of Gotham if she uses them correctly, or just comes out as woefully incompetent if she doesn't. And it's really sad in both cases.


I get the feeling future writers are going to avoid writing her or send her out of town in a soul searching journey 

... by the way, since I never read it, what is Claire's parents' opinion on her being a superhero slash enforcer of Bane? Do they know? Are they still alive?

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, I think some are projecting with Damian being favored or loved more by Bruce.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't know if it's controversial or not, but I think Tom King made a terrible mistake at the end of his rn by giving unlimited Superman-like powers to Gotham-Girl. She undermines the whole of Gotham if she uses them correctly, or just comes out as woefully incompetent if she doesn't. And it's really sad in both cases.


King made a mistake with Gotham Girl general. One of the weakest things about his run imo.

----------


## Zaresh

> I get the feeling future writers are going to avoid writing her or send her out of town in a soul searching journey 
> 
> ... by the way, since I never read it, what is Claire's parents' opinion on her being a superhero slash enforcer of Bane? Do they know? Are they still alive?


I don't think King is interested in writing about her that much. Maybe, if we¡'re lucky, we will know more in a short story or something, like that one with Ace. But I've the feeling he's going to write about her anymore.

I don't think any other writer is going to. She's a character created for a certain story, hasn't been as well received as Damian, for example, and she's too tied to King to be a "toy" for other writers to play with, in my opinion. I guess she will fade, like Harper, unless the next writers on Batman or Tec (or any other batbook) uses her soon.

So yep, I too think she's going to be put in a bus.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I liked Heath Ledger's Joker but i would have executed him offscreen if he was to be used post The Dark Knight.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I get the feeling future writers are going to avoid writing her or send her out of town in a soul searching journey 
> 
> ... by the way, since I never read it, what is Claire's parents' opinion on her being a superhero slash enforcer of Bane? Do they know? Are they still alive?


Yeah, count Claire as yet another orphan Bruce has indoctrinated.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah, count Claire as yet another orphan Bruce has indoctrinated.


Wait. They were orphans too?
Gotham has a problem.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Wait. They were orphans too?
> Gotham has a problem.


Or Bruce does, considering how many orphans he tends to take in.

----------


## Korath

> Wait. They were orphans too?
> Gotham has a problem.


They weren't until they met Psycho Pirate and Hugo Strange, who had overtaken a bunch of Task Force X grunts. Gotham killed them all and removed his mask, but one of them had faked his death, invaded their home and killer their parents, which sealed Gotham's madness and was the reason why Claire had to kill her brother.

----------


## Zaresh

> They weren't until they met Psycho Pirate and Hugo Strange, who had overtaken a bunch of Task Force X grunts. Gotham killed them all and removed his mask, but one of them had faked his death, invaded their home and killer their parents, which sealed Gotham's madness and was the reason why Claire had to kill her brother.


Thank you. Huh, I really didn't pay attention to that book when I was reading, sigh. I've to have read that part, but I can't remember it for my life :/.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Or Bruce does, considering how many orphans he tends to take in.


Gotham does have a problem. Someone keeps throwing parents off gargoyles for petty crimes leading to an orphan epidemic that thankfully Gotham's bestest son Bruce Wayne is here to take care of  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

> I just wish this is the kind of family drama that DC actually tackle, instead of the power player at WB/DC deliberately prioritizing Damian in marketing because HEY HE HAS A SON NOW! DID WE MENTION HE HAS A SON?


They sure say it a lot.
Now if only those same power players at DC would let us have some stories with this son. Maybe a Batman and Robin story. batman has had sidekicks helping him in some titles since rebirth
Tec had RR
ASB had Duke
JL has Jarro

It would be great if we got some family stories but DC instead declares Damian off limits stopping writers who want to write him from using him. 
Show don't tell and this is without getting into the fact that adopted are also sons part.

I feel it's the writers not the power players which is why the gimmick isn't backed up by action and why writers like King after intense back went from one son to including everyone from Kate to huntress as Batman's kids.

----------


## Valentonis

I think this might have been mentioned before but I think that the chemical vat origin for Joker needs to go. It's far more interesting if he becomes the way he is by more organic means.

----------


## Jackalope89

> They sure say it a lot.
> Now if only those same power players at DC would let us have some stories with this son. Maybe a Batman and Robin story. batman has had sidekicks helping him in some titles since rebirth
> Tec had RR
> ASB had Duke
> JL has Jarro
> 
> It would be great if we got some family stories but DC instead declares Damian off limits stopping writers who want to write him from using him. 
> Show don't tell and this is without getting into the fact that adopted are also sons part.
> 
> I feel it's the writers not the power players which is why the gimmick isn't backed up by action and why writers like King after intense back went from one son to including *everyone from Kate* to huntress as Batman's kids.


Huh!?
It was revealed that Kate and Bruce are about the same age in Kate's Batwoman series. So her being on of his "kids" seems really off.

----------


## Tzigone

> Show don't tell and this is without getting into the fact that adopted are also sons part.


Yeah, DC was fine with weakening those family bonds. And eliminating Cass's entirely.  Disliked Damian and "one son" idea we saw.




> Huh!?
> It was revealed that Kate and Bruce are about the same age in Kate's Batwoman series. So her being on of his "kids" seems really off.


It's a relative age that wouldn't have made sense in post-COIE era (I think - she was a cadet 10 years ago?).  Bruce was much younger in N52 than he was before.  Barbara and Dick have had some more years added back recently.  Don't really know how old Bruce or Selina is now, but has he become older than Kate?

Not that I would ever think of Kate as one of his kids, but  I absolutely hate Barbara cast as one of the protoges, too.   Of course, I still prefer Kate unrelated to Bruce as a re-imagined Kathy Kane (and no separate Kathy Kane).  Though it does muddy the waters on Bette and what her role should to whom and what connection there is and such.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yeah, DC was fine with weakening those family bonds. And eliminating Cass's entirely.  Disliked Damian and "one son" idea we saw.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a relative age that wouldn't have made sense in post-COIE era (I think - she was a cadet 10 years ago?).  Bruce was much younger in N52 than he was before.  Barbara and Dick have had some more years added back recently.  Don't really know how old Bruce or Selina is now, but has he become older than Kate?
> 
> Not that I would ever think of Kate as one of his kids, but  I absolutely hate Barbara cast as one of the protoges, too.   Of course, I still prefer Kate unrelated to Bruce as a re-imagined Kathy Kane (and no separate Kathy Kane).  Though it does muddy the waters on Bette and what her role should to whom and what connection there is and such.


That was in the Rebirth Storyline where it showed them at the funeral for Kate's mother and sister. The two were nearly the same size and age.

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## Tzigone

> That was in the Rebirth Storyline where it showed them at the funeral for Kate's mother and sister. The two were nearly the same size and age.


I knew it was sometime N52 - didn't realize Rebirth. Sorry if I was unclear about that - was trying to say that it wouldn't have made sense post-COIE when she was introduced (not that that would necessarily stop DC from doing it, since Nightwing Year One claimed Dick was 21 in 2005), and it only worked with their changes in age for New 52.  And those changes haven't stuck; Barbara has seemingly had a few years added to her sometime post-2018.  And Bruce has gone back to getting Dick as a child (not teen) so Bruce has to be older than 31 (or 34 with Damian's age up).  So I don't know what Bruce's age is anymore, or if it's changed (and if it has, has Kate's?).

----------


## Jackalope89

> I knew it was sometime N52 - didn't realize Rebirth. Sorry if I was unclear about that - was trying to say that it wouldn't have made sense post-COIE when she was introduced (not that that would necessarily stop DC from doing it, since Nightwing Year One claimed Dick was 21 in 2005), and it only worked with their changes in age for New 52.  And those changes haven't stuck; Barbara has seemingly had a few years added to her sometime post-2018.  And Bruce has gone back to getting Dick as a child (not teen) so Bruce has to be older than 31 (or 34 with Damian's age up).  So I don't know what Bruce's age is anymore, or if it's changed (and if it has, has Kate's?).


I don't know. Honestly, once most of the Rebirth series ended, my reading list shrunk drastically. Down to Red Hood basically.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I knew it was sometime N52 - didn't realize Rebirth. Sorry if I was unclear about that - was trying to say that it wouldn't have made sense post-COIE when she was introduced (not that that would necessarily stop DC from doing it, since Nightwing Year One claimed Dick was 21 in 2005), and it only worked with their changes in age for New 52.  And those changes haven't stuck; Barbara has seemingly had a few years added to her sometime post-2018.  And Bruce has gone back to getting Dick as a child (not teen) so Bruce has to be older than 31 (or 34 with Damian's age up).  So I don't know what Bruce's age is anymore, or if it's changed (and if it has, has Kate's?).


I don't remember who or when but I think someone did tell me once that while Rebirth started with them being around the same age,  presently Bruce is a few years older than Kate like he's mid-thirties and Kate is the early thirties or late twenties.

----------


## TheRay

> Well, why can't they be his sidekicks?


They can, I just think it would be more interesting if his sidekick were somebody else.

----------


## Aahz

> Barbara has seemingly had a few years added to her sometime post-2018.


In the last story arc it was iirc said that she is in her late 20s.

Kate was pre flashpint 32 when she became Batwoman, I think in Rebirth that was changed to 27 or 28, but I have now idea how old she is supposed to be in the current comics, how long she is supposed to have been Batwoman at this point, and when in relation to other events on the Batmantimeline she actually started in the current continuity.

----------


## Restingvoice

> In the last story arc it was iirc said that she is in her late 20s.
> 
> Kate was pre flashpint 32 when she became Batwoman, I think in Rebirth that was changed to 27 or 28, but I have now idea how old she is supposed to be in the current comics, how long she is supposed to have been Batwoman at this point, and when in relation to other events on the Batmantimeline she actually started in the current continuity.


'Kay I checked. In Rebirth, she first became Batwoman age 27 and 2 years before Lady Shiva and the League of Shadows attacked Gotham.

----------


## jetengine

Gotham Girl is going to be event fodder I suspect.

----------


## Korath

> Gotham Girl is going to be event fodder I suspect.


Sadly, there isn't miuch she could be anyway. Her power level makes no sense in Gotham, and since King never bothered to make her truly likeable, it's really hard to care about her anyway.

----------


## jetengine

> Sadly, there isn't miuch she could be anyway. Her power level makes no sense in Gotham, and since King never bothered to make her truly likeable, it's really hard to care about her anyway.


Hence event fodder, when some Crisis level  being needs to flex how powerful they are Gotham Girl is getting squished

----------


## Jackalope89

Which is a shame. When she was first introduced, I felt there was potential for her.

----------


## Korath

> Which is a shame. When she was first introduced, I felt there was potential for her.


Me too; but King's run was one long road of destruction where he built nothing and left on a very unsatisfying ending and note, while its worst aspect (the Batcat romance) being apparently upheld by DC Editorial.

----------


## Ansa

> Sadly, there isn't miuch she could be anyway. Her power level makes no sense in Gotham, and since King never bothered to make her truly likeable, it's really hard to care about her anyway.


What is her true character anyway? King used the Psycho Pirate a lot to explain characters acting a certain way but it was never explored that well.

----------


## dietrich

> Huh!?
> It was revealed that Kate and Bruce are about the same age in Kate's Batwoman series. So her being on of his "kids" seems really off.


Tom King gives no F**k when it comes to pandering. The man retconed his own story to pander to irate Ivy fans. According to king's Batman Kate, Huntress, cass, Steph, and Duke are all Bruces kids and thomas' grandkids. 

it's hilarious unless he's poking fun at tumblr's obsessional need for everyone to be adopted by Bruce

----------


## Caivu

> According to king's Batman Kate, Huntress, cass, Steph, and Duke are all Bruces kids and thomas' grandkids.


Eh, I never got that sense about Kate from King. He pretty much left her alone, which I appreciated (aside from Annual #2...).

----------


## dietrich

> Eh, I never got that sense about Kate from King. He pretty much left her alone, which I appreciated (aside from Annual #2...).


he had thomas refer to them all as his grand kids.

----------


## Restingvoice

> he had thomas refer to them all as his grand kids.


Ah. Bat-Family grandkids, because he's the granddad Batman and Bruce is the dad Batman, so everyone after that is considered the Bat grandkids.

----------


## Caivu

> he had thomas refer to them all as his grand kids.


Thomas is also a madman, so... eh. He was delusional ever since he showed up, so I wouldn't put too much stock into anything he says.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Nightwing should be taken out of the Batfam for a bit.

----------


## phonogram12

> Nightwing should be taken out of the Batfam for a bit.


To an extent, I have to agree. While obviously his '90s series with Chuck Dixon and Scott McDaniel was great, the only other time the character has really thrived was during his initial run with the New Teen Titans with Wolfman & Perez.

----------


## AmiMizuno

They put too much of him in Batman but never really take his own series seriously. There comes a bit where even NIghtwing has to cut himself off for a bit.

----------


## Frontier

The Titans haven't been treating him much better though.

----------


## E.Marie

> Nightwing should be taken out of the Batfam for a bit.


I feel the same for all the bat family currently being featured in their own title. Not because I don't like the bat family getting together but I haven't been liking how their being portrayed.

----------


## 9th.

I usually don't complain about names, I'm even a fan of The Signal which a lot of people hate but Orphan is a terrible name. Cass deserves better, it sounds like a one off villain.

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

> I usually don't complain about names, I'm even a fan of The Signal which a lot of people hate but Orphan is a terrible name. Cass deserves better, it sounds like a one off villain.


Agreed. The costume is whatever, but it’s time for her to get a new name. I still think it makes no sense how she doesn’t have a bat motif anywhere in her costume or code name, despite how important the meaning of the symbol is to her in Tynion’s run.

----------


## Aahz

it kind of irks me that usually Gail Simone is the one who is named in connection with Birds of Prey, when it was actually Jordan B. Gorfinkel was the Creator of that team, and Chuck Dixon laid all of the ground work.

----------


## Frontier

> Agreed. The costume is whatever, but it’s time for her to get a new name. I still think it makes no sense how she doesn’t have a bat motif anywhere in her costume or code name, despite how important the meaning of the symbol is to her in Tynion’s run.


And she just  doesn't look the same without a cape on. 



> it kind of irks me that usually Gail Simone is the one who is named in connection with Birds of Prey, when it was actually Jordan B. Gorfinkel was the Creator of that team, and Chuck Dixon laid all of the ground work.


I agree to some extent, although Simone is usually cited for the most popular incarnation of the group and for really popularizing them as a team even though she inherited it from Dixon.

----------


## Aahz

> I agree to some extent, although Simone is usually cited for the most popular incarnation of the group and for really popularizing them as a team even though she inherited it from Dixon.


The Series went already for more then 50 Issues and got a (failed) live action adaption before Simone took over, so I would claim that it was already popular at that point.

OK she added Huntress to the team, but she was before already part of the TV series, Birds of Prey Manhunt and appeared in a lot of other Batman related stuff.

----------


## ChaosIncarnate

> And she just  doesn't look the same without a cape on. 
> 
> .


True that. It’s crazy how much young justice improved her orphan costume, all by just adding a cape.

----------


## sifighter

I actually find Batgirl to be very confusing and it took me a while to really get into her series. I started reading comics after Killing Joke had already been around for at least a decade or two and Barbara was with the Birds of Prey and Cassie was Batgirl. Then a few years later Stephanie was Batgirl and then it all rebooted and Barbara was suddenly Batgirl again which made me totally lost on what happened because Barbara has never been Batgirl for me. If there’s any good news after New 52, Rebirth, and old comics on the DC universe app I’m good with Barbara being Batgirl.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How do you guys feel about the fact at times many of the relationships in a sense are within the family? I don't mind it every now and then. It's just at times I would rather have it branch out. Sure we get Babs and Dick but we also get Babs and Bruce. I rather like it now where Jason is with Artemis. So far I think no one is dating each other

----------


## millernumber1

> How do you guys feel about the fact at times many of the relationships in a sense are within the family? I don't mind it every now and then. It's just at times I would rather have it branch out. Sure we get Babs and Dick but we also get Babs and Bruce. I rather like it now where Jason is with Artemis. So far I think no one is dating each other


There's a clear struggle in DC about relationships, at least there appears to be from the way they've handled Bat/Cat and Dick/Babs, and even Jason/Artemis. There's a real sense that we're in the early 2000s and no writer has figured out how to write couples who are together but still interesting romantically.

But that's because they are bad writers. Not because there's some magic in UST that makes it a better story. It's just an easier story to tell.

----------


## Jackalope89

> How do you guys feel about the fact at times many of the relationships in a sense are within the family? I don't mind it every now and then. It's just at times I would rather have it branch out. Sure we get Babs and Dick but we also get Babs and Bruce. I rather like it now where Jason is with Artemis. So far I think no one is dating each other


Babs and Bruce was only in the animated series and its spin-off comics. Not the mainline (at least Post-Crisis). And that was more like Bruce Timm imagining himself as Batman and getting every girl all the time. Except for Hawkgirl.

----------


## E.Marie

> How do you guys feel about the fact at times many of the relationships in a sense are within the family? I don't mind it every now and then. It's just at times I would rather have it branch out. Sure we get Babs and Dick but we also get Babs and Bruce. I rather like it now where Jason is with Artemis. So far I think no one is dating each other


I don't want anymore "dating within the family." Someone posted a chart years ago with the X-Men based on who dated who, after awhile it gets ridiculous and starts to feel pretty incestuous. So nothing beyond Dick/Babs, Step/Tim and Bruce/Selina for me. I like Jason with Artemis too although I get the impression it's being held back. It's one of the only new pairings that I feel is being built up well. They went from reluctant allies to friends with their attraction building up.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> How do you guys feel about the fact at times many of the relationships in a sense are within the family? I don't mind it every now and then. It's just at times I would rather have it branch out. Sure we get Babs and Dick but we also get Babs and Bruce. I rather like it now where Jason is with Artemis. So far I think no one is dating each other


I think a romantic relationship has sense if is useful to develop the characters and/or tell a story: the relationship among Bruce and Seline did both things and this is why I think it became so iconic. But if a relationship is created only to put some cheap romance in the book (or if the writer isn't able to write it well), well I prefer not to have any relationship. Personally I see a good potential both in the relationship between Dick and Barbara than in the one between Tim and Stephanie, so I support them, but in my opinion those are the only good relationships inside the Bat-family while any other (hypothetycal or not) relationships seem to me only cheap romanticism.
To conclude I support all the relationships if:
1) they are well written
2) they help to develop the characters
3) they are useful to develop the story
otherwise I prefer not to have any relationship; it doesn't matter if it is inside or outside the family.
Obviously too many relationships inside the family would be boring and they would seem forced, but in certain cases can be good.





> There's a clear struggle in DC about relationships, at least there appears to be from the way they've handled Bat/Cat and Dick/Babs, and even Jason/Artemis. There's a real sense that we're in the early 2000s and no writer has figured out how to write couples who are together but still interesting romantically.
> 
> But that's because they are bad writers. Not because there's some magic in UST that makes it a better story. It's just an easier story to tell.


I agree.

----------


## Otto Gruenwald

Bruce needs to retire and say retired. Let Dick take over.

----------


## Gotham citizen

In my humble opinion Bruce needs writers able to write him like he was in the animated series of ninety: serious, resolute, determined, but not jerk and without any psychopath or sociopath trait.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> In my humble opinion Bruce needs writers able to write him like he was in the animated series of ninety: serious, resolute, determined, but not jerk and without any psychopath or sociopath trait.


But then we can't have any tedious drama.

(I agree with you 100%)

If DC is going to push Batman as much as they do, the least they could do is make him likable like he used to be in BTAS or pre-COIE.

----------


## Blue22

> I don't want anymore "dating within the family." Someone posted a chart years ago with the X-Men based on who dated who, after awhile it gets ridiculous and starts to feel pretty incestuous.


Good God, if you can find that chart please PM it to me. That sounds hilarious XD




> Bruce needs to retire and say retired. Let Dick take over.


I'm okay with Bruce retiring. Not so much with Dick or any of the Robins taking his place. Let them find their own paths. I'd personally be okay if Batman began and ended with Bruce. But Batman Beyond has made me really like Terry in the role

----------


## gregpersons

Batman (the brand) and Batman (the character) need to embrace the Family in a healthier way.

Fans like the family. There's a whole "MCU" amount of potential movie adaptations if you did a "Gotham Cinematic Universe" that took advantage of the wealth of valuable IP within the Bat Family alone.

Joker 
Harley Quinn
The Batman
Batgirl
Nightwing & Robin
Red Hood
Catwoman
The Huntress
Batwoman
Gotham City Sirens
Gotham City Cops 

All different possible film or TV franchises with the right management... there's how many Ant Man movies but it's just impossible to do a competent Batgirl or Robin film?

----------


## millernumber1

> Batman (the brand) and Batman (the character) need to embrace the Family in a healthier way.
> 
> Fans like the family. There's a whole "MCU" amount of potential movie adaptations if you did a "Gotham Cinematic Universe" that took advantage of the wealth of valuable IP within the Bat Family alone.
> 
> Joker 
> Harley Quinn
> The Batman
> Batgirl
> Nightwing & Robin
> ...


I mean, that's not even counting the team up movies (a la Ant-Man and Wasp and the Disney Plus shows) - Batman/Catwoman, Nightwing/Oracle (or Batgirl), League of Batgirls, Batman Inc, Robins (all five).

And yes. My biggest problem with this issue is that Tynion promised "this is where the Batfamily is going," and...it's nothing anybody seems to want. Everyone hating each other, everyone mad, nobody teaming up or offering any kind of positive relationships.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> […]
> All different possible film or TV franchises with the right management... there's how many Ant Man movies but it's just impossible to do a competent Batgirl or Robin film?


Why was the USA army more effective during the Second World War than the later ones? Because they fired the Generals who made some mistakes.




Or like a bigwig of Yamaha said last year, about the lack of competitiveness of their MotoGP bike: «To change the bike is necessary change ourselves»; then they fired the chief designers of that bike.




> […]
> And yes. My biggest problem with this issue is that Tynion promised "this is where the Batfamily is going," and...it's nothing anybody seems to want. Everyone hating each other, everyone mad, nobody teaming up or offering any kind of positive relationships.


I'm starting to think Tynion's task is prepare the ground for the 5G event. So if there will be a new Batman, then Bruce need a reason to retire.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Bruce needs to retire and say retired. Let Dick take over.


Dick doesn't want the mantle if it's not an emergency




> In my humble opinion Bruce needs writers able to write him like he was in the animated series of ninety: serious, resolute, determined, but not jerk and without any psychopath or sociopath trait.


Hear! Hear!

----------


## Ansa

> And yes. My biggest problem with this issue is that Tynion promised "this is where the Batfamily is going," and...it's nothing anybody seems to want. Everyone hating each other, everyone mad, nobody teaming up or offering any kind of positive relationships.


Bruce not doing anything about his family problems is very much in character for Rebirth Bruce and considering what happened in King's run and in their own titles I don't get why people expected this to be the issue where the batfamily would cheer Bruce up.
And some people here on cbr really act as if everyone was just straight up insulting Bruce when that's not what happened. Damian didn't blame Bruce one bit, Tim offered help, Jason also didn't blame Bruce he just said it was Bruce's responsibility to fix things, Ric tried to do the best he could without having is memories and while Barbara wasn't polite to Bruce I don't see why she should be and none of what she said wasn't legitimate criticism.

And Tynion announced a batfamily event for the summer in his news letter, I always expected the reconciliation to happen then. Until then Bruce has some time to think and try fix his relationships.

----------


## Korath

> Bruce needs to retire and say retired. Let Dick take over.


I agree, 100%.

----------


## Tzigone

> I usually don't complain about names, I'm even a fan of The Signal which a lot of people hate but Orphan is a terrible name. Cass deserves better, it sounds like a one off villain.


When I first heard the name, I very much associated it with her now not being Bruce's adopted child anymore.  But I thought it meant that of course she'd be restored to her place as daughter super-quickly and the name would go away. That the whole point was THAT it was inaccurate in the meta-sense and all would be righted.  Nope.




> I'm okay with Bruce retiring. Not so much with Dick or any of the Robins taking his place. Let them find their own paths. I'd personally be okay if Batman began and ended with Bruce. But Batman Beyond has made me really like Terry in the role


I definitely want them in their own places. For the idea that, in-unverse, their own names will rise as high as Batman (though it probably won't happen in the real world).  I can't get behind Batman Beyond. I liked the cartoon at first.  I liked Terry. But then it just went downhill (but then I already though when the show changed from B:TAS, it went bad for me).  The Bruce/Barbara. The "Batman's attic."  But worst of all was making Terry Bruce's bio kid.  Both the adopted kids were unfit for the job, unworthy, but bio kid is the proper successor, the one who can succeed where they failed and measure up where they couldn't.  Doesn't work for me.


Haven't read BB comic.

----------


## Jackalope89

> When I first heard the name, I very much associated it with her now not being Bruce's adopted child anymore.  But I thought it meant that of course she'd be restored to her place as daughter super-quickly and the name would go away. That the whole point was THAT it was inaccurate in the meta-sense and all would be righted.  Nope.
> 
> I definitely want them in their own places. For the idea that, in-unverse, their own names will rise as high as Batman (though it probably won't happen in the real world).  I can't get behind Batman Beyond. I liked the cartoon at first.  I liked Terry. But then it just went downhill (but then I already though when the show changed from B:TAS, it went bad for me).  The Bruce/Barbara. The "Batman's attic."  But worst of all was making Terry Bruce's bio kid.  Both the adopted kids were unfit for the job, unworthy, but bio kid is the proper successor, the one who can succeed where they failed and measure up where they couldn't.  Doesn't work for me.
> 
> 
> Haven't read BB comic.


Batman Beyond Comic doesn't have the BrucexBabs and as far as I know, Terry is not Bruce's bio kid.

----------


## AmiMizuno

He is Bruces biology child. Also there is a cannon comic that confirms Bruce and Babs was a thing


Terry being Bruces son

https://youtu.be/XFMOgIIv0Fs

----------


## Aahz

> He is Bruces biology child. Also there is a cannon comic that confirms Bruce and Babs was a thing
> 
> 
> Terry being Bruces son
> 
> https://youtu.be/XFMOgIIv0Fs


Those comics were set in the DCAU-Continuity while the current Batman Beyond Comic is set in an possible future of the cuurent comics continuity.
Thats why Damian and Jason were Robin in the current Batman Beyond Comics (even if the they don't exist in the DCAU) and Joker was also still alive (which means that the events we sow in Return of the Joker also didn't happen).

----------


## phantom1592

> When I first heard the name, I very much associated it with her now not being Bruce's adopted child anymore.  But I thought it meant that of course she'd be restored to her place as daughter super-quickly and the name would go away. That the whole point was THAT it was inaccurate in the meta-sense and all would be righted.  Nope..


I'm a bit out of the loop... but last i heard both Shiva and Caine were still alive.... making her the ONLY major bat-family member who is NOT an orphan.... Ughhh... 




> I definitely want them in their own places. For the idea that, in-unverse, their own names will rise as high as Batman (though it probably won't happen in the real world).  I can't get behind Batman Beyond. I liked the cartoon at first.  I liked Terry. But then it just went downhill (but then I already though when the show changed from B:TAS, it went bad for me).  The Bruce/Barbara. The "Batman's attic."  But worst of all was making Terry Bruce's bio kid.  Both the adopted kids were unfit for the job, unworthy, but bio kid is the proper successor, the one who can succeed where they failed and measure up where they couldn't.  Doesn't work for me.
> .


Yeah, I'll never be able to see terry as 'Batman'. He was a fun character and I enjoyed the early episodes a lot... but he always had more of a Robin or Nightwing feel than a 'one true Batman'. Like he was trying to earn the mantle... instead of BEING the mantle if that makes sense.  Fun show, but Batman=Bruce Wayne.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I usually don't complain about names, I'm even a fan of The Signal which a lot of people hate but Orphan is a terrible name. Cass deserves better, it sounds like a one off villain.


It _was_ a one-off villain XD




> I'm a bit out of the loop... but last i heard both Shiva and Caine were still alive.... making her the ONLY major bat-family member who is NOT an orphan.... Ughhh...


Cain died saving Cass or something like that, so she took his name Orphan in memoriam. I think David did apologize for his treatment of her but it's been a while since I read Eternal. At that time she didn't know about Shiva. Not like she wants her as mother once she found out...

----------


## Dazai_Osamu

> I'm sorry, but as a fan of both Cassandra and Tim, I have to disagree.
> 
> What they need to do is throw out that ri-goddamn-diculous 5 year time line. It was arbitrary, only sporadically enforced, and in the case of the Bat family, made no damn sense. It meant that Bruce had FOUR different Robins in 5 years, and then none of their ages made sense.
> 
> Both Tim and Cass can be great characters, and their old books showed this. But what was done to their characters in the New 52 (ESPECIALLY Tim) was beyond reprehensible, and should either be retconned back out of existence, or completely ignored.


I tend to ignore all New 52, that wasn't Tim, it was another character with his name, and Cass was ignored what 4 years in New 52!!! How DC ruined 2 great characters.

----------


## Robanker

> Also there is a cannon comic that confirms Bruce and Babs was a thing


*NOPE.*

That's only ever been alternate futures or DCAU stuff. If it ever crept up in mainline continuity I would reach Flat-Earther levels of denial and just NOPE that right out of any mental continuity I have until DC regains their sense. Bruce/Babs is all kinds of wrong.

----------


## Gotham citizen

I think the attraction between Bruce and Barbara is one of the most disturbing idea saw in Batman: if Barbara has the same age of Dick, then Bruce could be her father!
Even when I saw the TV show with Adam West, I felt it was a deeply wrong thing; in fact if I remember well I stopped to seeing the show just because they hinted there could be something between them.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Bruce/Babs could only have maybe worked in pre-Crisis where she was closer to his age than Dick's, and he wasn't an asshole.

Timm making the choice to do it after it was established that Babs was the same age as Dick (if not a year or two younger? she's still in college after he graduates) was weird and gross.

----------


## mathew101281



----------


## John Venus

As per her hospital profile in Sub-Zero, Barbara was 20 year old in Batman: The Animated Series and with TNBA roughly taking place 3 years after B:TAS thus making her 23 whereas Bruce was somewhere in his 30's in all the 'present day' shows, not accounting for the flashbacks in MoTP or futuristic shows like Batman Beyond.  

I mean, yes, it's still 'icky' but discussion about this pairing are starting to reach hyperbolic levels both here and elsewhere, at least from my pov.   

I think Kyle Higgins handled it in the worst, most soap operatic way possible when he wrote that Batman Beyond issue and it didn't help with the pairing being brought back up in the prologue to the Killing Joke. 

Looking back purely on the facts; we first learn that Bruce and Barbara dated in Batman Beyond. We don't know the details but Barbara is smiling as she reminisces about it. I can't imagine anybody smiling if a relationship involved cheating, miscarriage and broken another relationship unless that person is a psychopath. Barbara was established as having a crush on Bruce Wayne in B:TAS (which is something true to her original introductory comics). In TNBA, Barbara was Batman's most frequent and reliable partner; his relationship with Dick was on the rocks while Tim was still in training and no longer a viable partner after the Joker thing. Even on TNBA, Barbara and Dick weren't dating or in a relationship even though there was some tension.  In Mystery of the Batwoman, Barbara attempts to breach the topic of a relationship and Bruce comically cuts her off. Putting the established pieces within the DCAU together to say that two people who often worked together in a high pressure, life threatening situations, spent a few nights together. That the years of crime fighting were taking a toll on Bruce to the point where at some point he reciprocated her crush but then broke it off later on. 

I also don't think Timm and other creators intended for the relationship to be something you rooted. They said they did it partly because it would be controversial but it's never explored within the shows and then a less talented writer decided to explore it in the worst way possible.  All of Bruce's relationships in the shows had some kind of meaning; Zatanna was the teenage friend, Andrea was the one who broke his heart, Selina and Talia were different shades of temptations that would have caused Bruce to compromise his code and Barbara was the relationship that never should have been and meant to expose his flaws, the chinks in his armor. By the time WW came around, he was too far gone to commit to a relationship.

----------


## John Venus

> Bruce/Babs could only have maybe worked in pre-Crisis where she was closer to his age than Dick's, and he wasn't an asshole.
> 
> Timm making the choice to do it after it was established that Babs was the same age as Dick (if not a year or two younger? she's still in college after he graduates) was weird and gross.


Timm/Dini/Burnett would have definitely grown up with the comics where Barbara was a fully grown adult woman and closer in age to Bruce.  Though it was their decision to make both Dick and Babs college aged and bring down the age difference to a couple of years which the comic books, especially the ones under Chuck Dixon followed suit.  

It wouldn't be the first time they went back and forth with characters. Look at Two Face, they wrote an incredible two part origin story for him but in eps like 'Almost Got 'Im', Shadow of the Bat and Sins of the Father, he's just your average two-bit (heh) villain, no different than any other gangster character.

----------


## Agent Z

Batman has had a far more negative impact on comics than Watchmen or even Rob Liefeld in some ways ever did.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Batman has had a far more negative impact on comics than Watchmen or even Rob Liefeld in some ways ever did.


Clarification?

----------


## Agent Z

> Clarification?


For all the talk of how Watchmen influenced the dark age of the 90s, people forget that it was an elseworld tale while Batman's darkest stories actually take place in the mainstream universe. In addition, Batman is the number one example of how putting all your time and effort into one I.P. can leave you behind in your competition.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> For all the talk of how Watchmen influenced the dark age of the 90s, people forget that it was an elseworld tale while Batman's darkest stories actually take place in the mainstream universe. In addition, Batman is the number one example of how putting all your time and effort into one I.P. can leave you behind in your competition.


Watchmen being an elseworld vs. Batman's stories being in (a constantly fluctuating) mainstream universe doesn't mean much. An influential story is an influential story. And they're all make believe anyway.

That being said, Watchmen wasn't doing all this on its own, a lot of the blame comes from less talented creators taking the wrong lessons from it, and for Batman in particular TDKR takes significantly more blame for ruining him.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Watchmen being an elseworld vs. Batman's stories being in (a constantly fluctuating) mainstream universe doesn't mean much. An influential story is an influential story. And they're all make believe anyway.
> 
> That being said, Watchmen wasn't doing all this on its own, a *lot of the blame comes from less talented creators taking the wrong lessons from it*, and for Batman in particular TDKR takes significantly more blame for ruining him.


Yes, God yes.

----------


## Tzigone

> Yes, God yes.


Our of curiosity, what lesson do you think should have been taken from it?

I have to admit, I agree with those about Batman being ruined. Don't like the grimdark that was made by Miller. Loathe what was done to Barbara in the Killing Joke (she could be paralyzed, but not that way, and I hate the background for the Joker, though that admittedly doesn't matter so much, since he spins tales).  But they sold like hotcakes.  They are loved.  People talking about the best comic stories always pick the dark, depressing ones or the ones where villains have significant victories or heroes do bad things or die.  Likewise, the repeated deaths and heel turns and huge events- I think they are detrimental in the long-run, but in short run, they move comics and bring in dollars.  And that's an issue with Batman - he reached the #1 spot in DC comics and stayed there by behaving in a way I can't stand.  Batgod and Batjerk bring in the bucks.  So when talking about creative decisions we dislike, I think we have to acknowledge the part that business decisions and fan actions play in them.

----------


## Gotham citizen

I can't answer for SeigePerilious02, but I can say how I interpret his words: what is the right lesson to learn? How to tell a story. What is the wrong lesson to learn? Batman is a person insane like Joker.

----------


## Tzigone

> what is the right lesson to learn? How to tell a story


An answer like that is meaningless to me. It's like saying "good stories will sell" or "good characters will interest people" - so wide and generic that it has no value.

----------


## Gotham citizen

I'm sorry, but I can't give you a more detailed answer, because I should write an entire sage about the creative writing techniques used by Miller in his comics and it would be impossible.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Our of curiosity, what lesson do you think should have been taken from it?
> 
> I have to admit, I agree with those about Batman being ruined. Don't like the grimdark that was made by Miller. Loathe what was done to Barbara in the Killing Joke (she could be paralyzed, but not that way, and I hate the background for the Joker, though that admittedly doesn't matter so much, since he spins tales).  But they sold like hotcakes.  They are loved.  People talking about the best comic stories always pick the dark, depressing ones or the ones where villains have significant victories or heroes do bad things or die.  Likewise, the repeated deaths and heel turns and huge events- I think they are detrimental in the long-run, but in short run, they move comics and bring in dollars.  And that's an issue with Batman - he reached the #1 spot in DC comics and stayed there by behaving in a way I can't stand.  Batgod and Batjerk bring in the bucks.  So when talking about creative decisions we dislike, I think we have to acknowledge the part that business decisions and fan actions play in them.


I don't think people pay for Batjerk.

Noir compliments the character, and Batman is pretty popular to begin with. But unrelenting grimness leads to repetitive story telling. DD was stuck in a functional time loop until Mark Waid came along.

----------


## phonogram12

> I don't think people pay for Batjerk.
> 
> Noir compliments the character, and Batman is pretty popular to begin with. But unrelenting grimness leads to repetitive story telling. DD was stuck in a functional time loop until Mark Waid came along.


Supposedly, Mark Waid's approach to DD was originally his pitch for Nightwing. As a huge fan of Miller's, Bendis,' Brubaker's, then Zdarsky's runs, I honestly think it would've been better on Nightwing.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Supposedly, Mark Waid's approach to DD was originally his pitch for Nightwing. As a huge fan of Miller's, Bendis,' Brubaker's, then Zdarsky's runs, I honestly think it would've been better on Nightwing.


I have to disagree.

DD was stuck in the grimness for decades with no reprieve.

Waid worked to contrast DD outside of that. Given the enemies DD faced, I'm hard pressed to see how they could have been Nightwing stories beyond the main character not being totally crushingly depressed.

DD was constantly being torn down between Miller and Waid. Waid brought fresh air DD needed.

----------


## phonogram12

> I have to disagree.
> 
> DD was stuck in the grimness for decades with no reprieve.
> 
> Waid worked to contrast DD outside of that. Given the enemies DD faced, I'm hard pressed to see how they could have been Nightwing stories beyond the main character not being totally crushingly depressed.
> 
> DD was constantly being torn down between Miller and Waid. Waid brought fresh air DD needed.


Nightwing needed (hell, still needs) the kind of approach Waid used on DD. Given my favorite stories of each character, it would've been a perfect fit. I honestly tried his DD and it just wasn't my cup of tea.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Nightwing needed (hell, still needs) the kind of approach Waid used on DD. Given my favorite stories of each character, it would've been a perfect fit. I honestly tried his DD and it just wasn't my cup of tea.


I don't disagree with Nightwing, and to each their own with DD.

But Waid's DD exploited Matt's blindness/abilities for dramatic effect, something other writers largely neglected

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean the issue is they don't know how to write Dick. I mean what makes him Dick Nightwing and not Robin. He has his own city but they never know what to do with it. It's also in the same State. Maybe he should be in between. I say this since Metropolis and Gotham are close. Dick has always been close to both of them. It was Clark who gave him the name Nightwing. Bludhaven could be written as a city somewhat like Metropolis. It's clean but at Dark many mobs and other gangs due their crimes.  I also feel maybe how crime operations are different. They have a large entertainment business so they want to keep it. All crime is outsourced to keep a clean image.

----------


## Jackalope89

I didn't hate Alfred RIP.

Honestly, Batjerk has had this sort of thing coming for sometime, and I'm glad he was finally called out on it. And honestly, I thought it was still toned down from what it probably should have been. Now some may disagree, but the way Bruce has been acting, for some time now, has needed to have consequences. Now, if Bruce _hadn't_ been written as such a horrible person, then I would take issue. But as it is...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I can't answer for SeigePerilious02, but I can say how I interpret his words: what is the right lesson to learn? How to tell a story. What is the wrong lesson to learn? Batman is a person insane like Joker.





> An answer like that is meaningless to me. It's like saying "good stories will sell" or "good characters will interest people" - so wide and generic that it has no value.


Basically what Gotham citizen said, but I'd add that that Moore was doing a dark deconstruction of superheroes without touching the actual big name superheroes. Now, he had originally planned this to be the actual Charlton characters, and he also had Twilight of the Superheroes planned, but none of that came to fruition. As it stands, it's a stand alone tale using new characters while leaving the big IPs alone. 

And the intentions by the author were that we weren't meant to like these people, particularly Rorschach. But other creators and fanboys saw the superficial "mature" elements (violence, drugs, sex, swearing) and deemed Rorschach's actions as cool and something to be consumed. And while the general gritty, violent anti hero trend for action heroes in the 80s was on the rise, Batman was grabbed and gradually morphed into such an asshole. TDKR was mainly to blame for this, but even that was meant by Miller to be a bad possible future while other creators started to emulate that story for mainstream, younger Batman.

And it snowballed from there, and we're stuck with this asshole we have now. I choose to believe the real Batman was captured and placed in suspended animation around COIE and we've been stuck with a mentally unstable clone ever since :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kjn

> And it snowballed from there, and we're stuck with this asshole we have now. I choose to believe the real Batman was captured and placed in suspended animation around COIE and we've been stuck with a mentally unstable clone ever since


And now the real Batman has woken up and is walking around with the Joker in a jar?  :Wink:

----------


## Gotham citizen

Obviously I agree with everything SiegePerilous02 wrote.
I can add only a thing, a consideration I made just few days ago: during Knightfall we saw Azrael become Batman, kick everybody out of the Batcave, use the batrangs like they were shuriken, became more and more reckless, violent, disrespectful toward the law and the people and in the end we saw Bruce Wayne fight Azrael because he wasn't worthy to be Batman. Then how Batman started to act after Knightfall? He kicked everybody out of the Batcave (during Murderer/Fugitive), he used the batrangs like they were shuriken, he became more and more reckless, violent, disrespectful toward the law and the people; it is like the body of Bruce Wayne is possessed by Azrael, namely by the person who was everything Batman had sweared not to be.

----------


## Agent Z

Bruce was acting like an unlikable jackass before Azrael came along (especially after Jason's death). The reason Az was created was so writers could have their cake and eat it too by writing a Batman was a destructive antihero without it being Wayne. Unfortunately, Azrael did what writers wouldn't let Bruce and grew out of his toxic personality traits so Bruce went back to being an intolerable asshole.

----------


## Tzigone

> Bruce was acting like an unlikable jackass before Azrael came along (especially after Jason's death). The reason Az was created was so writers could have their cake and eat it too by writing a Batman was a destructive antihero without it being Wayne. Unfortunately, Azrael did what writers wouldn't let Bruce and grew out of his toxic personality traits so Bruce went back to being an intolerable asshole.


There's definitely some truth to that. Can't say about Azrael, since I've never really followed him and only saw him occasionally. But Bruce was a complete jerk to a lot of people in early post-COIE (including with the changed set up of how Dick became Nightwing and how Jason became Robin).  He was better, it seemed, in the early to mid-90s (I've heard it said that some of pre-COIE Batman's personality stayed around until the mid-90s). At least he still had some good stuff in Batbooks. But by '99, he was on a downward slide again and it just got worse.  Not saying there were never any good moments, but somewhere around that era (definitely by No Man's Land), he crossed the line to me and became a character that I tend to default to negative on  and see more of the bad in his actions than the good in regards to his relationships with others.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Bruce was acting like an unlikable jackass before Azrael came along (especially after Jason's death). The reason Az was created was so writers could have their cake and eat it too by writing a Batman was a destructive antihero without it being Wayne. Unfortunately, Azrael did what writers wouldn't let Bruce and grew out of his toxic personality traits so Bruce went back to being an intolerable asshole.


I think you have completely missed my point: I haven't written before Knightfall he was good, after he was bad, I have simply made a comparison between a story where Bruce Wayne (more or less) acted like the hero he was meant to be (some of his actions are questionable) and how acted after that story.
Moreover I said I agree with what SeigePerilous02 wrote:




> […]
> I choose to believe the real Batman was captured and placed in suspended animation around COIE and we've been stuck with a mentally unstable clone ever since.


Which is basically in agreement with what you wrote.

----------


## CPSparkles

> An answer like that is meaningless to me. It's like saying "good stories will sell" or "good characters will interest people" - so wide and generic that it has no value.



an example of a lesson to take from Millers DK? Ironically A batman and Robin concept that works and eliminates most of the ethical and moral questions that Robin presents.

Carrie Kelly as Robin is the Robin that feels the least exploitative.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> And now the real Batman has woken up and is walking around with the Joker in a jar?


That's the Snyder/Capullo Black Label book right?

Because all the power to it. I'll take what I can get at this point to get the real Bruce back. 

F*** it, I was joking but I wouldn't be bothered by essentially doing a Clone Saga on Batman, but without the backtracking and have the returned Bruce be the real deal.

----------


## kjn

> That's the Snyder/Capullo Black Label book right?
> 
> Because all the power to it. I'll take what I can get at this point to get the real Bruce back. 
> 
> F*** it, I was joking but I wouldn't be bothered by essentially doing a Clone Saga on Batman, but without the backtracking and have the returned Bruce be the real deal.


Yep. Though I'm not sure it's the "real Bruce" per your definition in it. It was awesome as a Mad Max look at the DC universe, but I think the plot failed to materialise, and that exposed the holes in the worldbuilding. Imagery and mood were off the charts however, especially in the first two issues.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> […]
> F*** it, I was joking but I wouldn't be bothered by essentially doing a Clone Saga on Batman, but without the backtracking and have the returned Bruce be the real deal.


Are you talking about Bruce in captured and put in suspended animation?
I think (almost) every understood that; like I was joking when I wrote about Bruce's body possessed by Azrael's mind.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Are you talking about Bruce in captured and put in suspended animation?
> I think (almost) every understood that; like I was joking when I wrote about Bruce's body possessed by Azrael's mind.


Yeah that's what I meant.
And I know fanboys would be upset that the Batman they read about or the past few decades was a clone, but it would be for the best! :Wink:

----------


## Gotham citizen

I'm fine with that: I was an X-men reader...

----------


## dietrich

> an example of a lesson to take from Millers DK? I


Tim Drake.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm fine with that: I was an X-men reader...


Jean Grey? ^^




> Tim Drake.


Elaboration? 

No more Robin after Jason died until he's old age?

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Jean Grey? ^^
> […]


Not only! They started a clone factory (synchronized with their telepath computer Cerebro), to resurrect themselves every time they die.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Not only! They started a clone factory (synchronized with their telepath computer Cerebro), to resurrect themselves every time they die.


Oh f... that _is_ a jumping shark moment

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Oh f... that _is_ a jumping shark moment


It actually works in context.
And death in comics is a joke anyway, so...

----------


## dietrich

> Jean Grey? ^^
> 
> 
> 
> Elaboration? 
> 
> No more Robin after Jason died until he's old age?


Correct but in his old age he took on a 3rd Robin

A 3rd Robin who was a big fan from the suburbs with neglectful parents who figured out bruce's identity. Recognised that Batman need help since his world has gotten much darker. Batman refuses to take on another kid but the kid saved Batman's life and impressed batman with their skills so much that batman accepts.

The kid becomes a valuable sidekick who though lacking in physical abilities more than makes up for that with her tech skills and her intuition all the while juggling a hero life with her personal and school life.

This Robin was more of a partner than a sidekick. Later a predecessor returns and attempts to kill the replacement Robin but Carrie Survives.

I wasn't sure if the original comment was being serious since the main universe writers clearly took something big from Millar's Work.

----------


## kjn

> Not only! They started a clone factory (synchronized with their telepath computer Cerebro), to resurrect themselves every time they die.


Now I have flashbacks to the Paranoia RPG

----------


## Restingvoice

> It actually works in context.
> And death in comics is a joke anyway, so...


It does kinda fit with how people would react if they keep coming back from the dead that I talked about in the Pennyworth RIP discussion thread... I just need to hear a better wording because as is it's just "omg"

----------


## AmiMizuno

It's time for the Batfam to date within their own circle. I don't know at one part they are brothers and sisters. Then you have them dating. It's a weird incest thing. This is why I often like Dick with Kori. More because it's outside the family

----------


## CPSparkles

> It's time for the Batfam to date within their own circle. I don't know at one part they are brothers and sisters. Then you have them dating. It's a weird incest thing. This is why I often like Dick with Kori. More because it's outside the family


They don't date within the family.

Babs isn't family and neither is Steph.

----------


## Tzigone

Here's another odd one - I'm not at all sure they all need to be close.  Fanfic loves to paint them as one big family (happy or dysfunctional).  But, of course, originally Barbara was separate from Bruce and Dick. Then built a sort of partnership with Dick while she was a congresswoman, but still didn't have much to do with Bruce. I like that, that he wouldn't have to be the center of everything.  I'd keep her dynamic with Cass as it played out. I prefer Steph as a non-Batgirl, with her connections being Tim and later Cass.  Damian, maybe, but not Bruce or Jason or Duke or Dick.  Tim could have a close relationship with Dick (I really enjoyed that), but I feel less strongly about his relationships with Jason or Cass (can take or leave, esp. Cass) and he doesn't have be close with Damian or Duke.  Barbara and Jason appeared in like two issues together post-COIE before he died, as far as I can recall, and I dislike later recons on the two of them.  I think I could like a Duke and Damian dynamic, but don't really care about Duke building a close rapport with the others (am not reading Outsiders, though, so maybe if I was I'd be swayed on him and Cass).  Jason could be close with Tim, I kinda like the idea, but it's not super-necessary to me.  But he needn't be close with really any of the others to me.

I'd prefer Barbara and Steph (who I definitely ship with former Robins), especially, who have not been fostered or lived with Bruce, to not have close relationships with him as the others do, and have to not necessarily have close relationships with all the others (though, like I said, I do want some of them).

I also think each of them having consistent people outside the family would help.  Poor Damian can't keep any - Colin, Suren, Maya,  ...bye bye.  Jason's doing better in that regard lately, and Dick has been okay since the Teen Titans.  Tim's back with YJ, though I don't know about any civilian friends.  But Barbara and Steph and Cass and Duke, I'm just not so sure about.

----------


## Matt Parker

I think The Batman (which aired from 2004 to 2008) is a more consistently enjoyable series overall than BTAS. It never quite reaches the heights of BTAS, but it also has really consistent quality and I prefer its takes on several villains, including Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin, Clayface, and Joker. The Penguin in BTAS is a really bland version, while The Batman's Penguin is a really fun, comedic take that is a pathetic loser. Mark Hamill is unmatchable, but the writing for the animated series Joker was inconsistent and the only great Joker centric episodes, IMO, are "Laughing Fish" and "Mad Love". The Batman, meanwhile, does a better job at having the Joker be both hilarious and genuinely creepy and disturbing (that design does a lot of the work) and almost every Joker episode is really good, with a few of them ("Strange Minds" and "The laughing Bat") being some of my favorite Joker stories in any medium. 

I also like that The Batman has more continuity and we really get to see Bruce Wayne grow and evolve. We see him go from a year one type Batman who had only fought regular criminals and mobsters into the traditional Batman from modern comics with a full fledged rogues gallery and several sidekicks. The anthology style of BTAs worked, but it prevented that kind of development in some ways. 

Plus, The Batman's version of Bruce Wayne cured Vampirism. That is all.

----------


## Tzigone

The Batman had some fun bits. But my interest was already waning and it absolutely died completely when the JL showed up and he'd taken over all the computers and stuff. I *hate* Batgod. You just have to understand. I was so excited at the idea of Batman not as a founding member or not involved in setting it up. It something different and potentially interesting. Excited to seem him on the team...and them my dreams came crashing down. Same crap all over again.  Ruined, absolutely ruined any hope of me wanting to see more of him with the other heroes in that verse.  I think I watched one more episode (to see Oracle) and that was it.  I may be misremembering, though, it's been a while.

Hate The Batman's Joker and didn't care for Harley. Penguin was good.  The cops were good.  I did like the start of a Batman that feels fulfilled and happy with all that he's done with Batman and so forth.

----------


## Matt Parker

> The Batman had some fun bits. But my interest was already waning and it absolutely died completely when the JL showed up and he'd taken over all the computers and stuff. I *hate* Batgod. You just have to understand. I was so excited at the idea of Batman not as a founding member or not involved in setting it up. It something different and potentially interesting. Excited to seem him on the team...and them my dreams came crashing down. Same crap all over again.  Ruined, absolutely ruined any hope of me wanting to see more of him with the other heroes in that verse.  I think I watched one more episode (to see Oracle) and that was it.  I may be misremembering, though, it's been a while.
> 
> Hate The Batman's Joker and didn't care for Harley. Penguin was good.  The cops were good.  I did like the start of a Batman that feels fulfilled and happy with all that he's done with Batman and so forth.


Interesting. I am currently rewatching the series for the first time in 8 years and I am mid season 2. What about the Joker don't you like? I understand his redesign was controversial for many. The Batman was what introduced me to the Batman mythology along with BTAS, so their Joker was ingrained on me from a young age. 

I agree that I became less interested when the Justice League came in, but I might like that stuff more upon a rewatch. My favorite thing about the series, aside from finding their take on Batman himself to be on par with the BTAS version (my opinion, of course) is that I love seeing Batman grow and evolve over a long period of time. Most modern stories start at the very beginning and then jump ahead to an older and established Batman. This is what the Post-Crisis books did and this is what the New 52 did. The animated series, meanwhile, started in a bizarre and contradictory status quo where Batman had been around long enough to have established relationships with the police, a college aged-Robin, and storied histories with Joker and Penguin and yet had never met any other super villains or superheroes. Therefore, I found the Batman's commitment to showing Bruce grow from young and idealistic newbie to a more grizzled and cynical (but still thoroughly heroic and likable) crimefighter as the seasons went on to be really refreshing and cool.

----------


## marhawkman

> Yeah that's what I meant.
> And I know fanboys would be upset that the Batman they read about or the past few decades was a clone, but it would be for the best!


You mean the one that's so gloomy and depressing that Blackrock decided he was an unsuitable host?
BatmanBlackrock.jpg
Seriously... how depressing do you have to be for the Blackrock to not want you as a host?  Oh right, you have to be willing to commit suicide by Superman.  THAT depressing!



> Oh f... that _is_ a jumping shark moment


Nah, he left out how the Xmen currently have several X-teams, which is normal.  But one of the X-teams is lead by Apocalypse, which is not normal.

----------


## Tzigone

> What about the Joker don't you like?


Honestly,  I don't remember specifics, just that he irritated me a lot.  So I suppose "hate" is too strong, since I evidently don't have the passion to recall.  FTR, I prefer the more calculated, less psychotic, less gory, but also less zany Joker.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> They don't date within the family.
> 
> Babs isn't family and neither is Steph.



I don't know how much time and involved they are it can be to others they are family. But I still rejected Bruce and Babs

----------


## Gurz

Birds of Prey is Batman's harem.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godlike13

> Birds of Prey is Batman's harem.


Argument could be made that its Dick's  :Cool:

----------


## Jackalope89

> I don't know how much time and involved they are it can be to others they are family. *But I still rejected Bruce and Babs*


You won't find many people that disagree with you there. Its actually a rather popular opinion.

----------


## batnbreakfast

There should be DCs top talent on a Robin title (don't care which sidekick actually, any Robin will do). Not all those minor league writers and artists. Just like the Dixon run from the 90s.

----------


## witchboy

> You won't find many people that disagree with you there. Its actually a rather popular opinion.


I find Bruce and Babs really cringe worthy.

----------


## Gaius

> I think The Batman (which aired from 2004 to 2008) is a more consistently enjoyable series overall than BTAS. It never quite reaches the heights of BTAS, but it also has really consistent quality and I prefer its takes on several villains, including Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin, Clayface, and Joker. The Penguin in BTAS is a really bland version, while The Batman's Penguin is a really fun, comedic take that is a pathetic loser. Mark Hamill is unmatchable, but the writing for the animated series Joker was inconsistent and the only great Joker centric episodes, IMO, are "Laughing Fish" and "Mad Love". The Batman, meanwhile, does a better job at having the Joker be both hilarious and genuinely creepy and disturbing (that design does a lot of the work) and almost every Joker episode is really good, with a few of them ("Strange Minds" and "The laughing Bat") being some of my favorite Joker stories in any medium. 
> 
> I also like that The Batman has more continuity and we really get to see Bruce Wayne grow and evolve. We see him go from a year one type Batman who had only fought regular criminals and mobsters into the traditional Batman from modern comics with a full fledged rogues gallery and several sidekicks. The anthology style of BTAs worked, but it prevented that kind of development in some ways. 
> 
> Plus, The Batman's version of Bruce Wayne cured Vampirism. That is all.


Agreed, outside of more light-hearted takes on the character, _The Batman_ is my preferred way to see Batman where he actually seems like a decent guy and isn't on dick-mode all the time around his supposed friends and allies like he was the later DCAU.

----------


## marhawkman

> Agreed, outside of more light-hearted takes on the character, _The Batman_ is my preferred way to see Batman where he actually seems like a decent guy and isn't on dick-mode all the time around his supposed friends and allies like he was the later DCAU.


Yeah that show was enjoyable to watch.  :Smile:   More so because I was happy to see the guest stars.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I find Bruce and Babs really cringe worthy.


My point exactly. Most agree on that (myself included). Its actually a popular opinion to _not_ like the BrucexBabs stuff.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s the point even.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Marvel's Black Cat is the better Catwoman. I love the stories Brubaker did with Selina, maybe Dini's stuff but I don't remember it well, probably Morrison's and Loeb's Catwomen were also really good but overall Marvel wins with a much better costume, bad luck powers and charm.

----------


## Light of Justice

Controversial opinion? Hmm, I have some weird opinion, don't know if it's controversial or not.

1. Looking at Bruce's mental state lately, I think it's better for him to retire from Batman and just marry Selina or something.
2. I hate when people call Cassandra 'former assassin'. Yes, she was raised by assassin to be the best assassin, but she literally only killed one person and after that she was consumed by guilt and ran away from her father. Assassin is someone who willingly kill people who has no relation with them without any emotion, just because they are ordered to (like Deathstroke, Deadshot, Damian before he met Batman, etc). On my opinion Cassandra is never an assassin, call her that is almost an insult to her.
3. I love redhead Jason? And please bring back his red gun.
4. I love Damian's "Terminus Agenda" protocol. For 13 almost 14 years old kid, that plan is really neat and as Deathstroke said, brilliant. 
5. (more like theory) the mysterious box on Teen Titans annual which Damian used to taunt Jason, contains Bruce's father's watch (the one we saw on robin anniversary comic). He left it to Alfred before he went to Joker (and dead), and after his resurrection and his relationship with Bruce went really sour, he can't bring himself to take it back from Alfred. Why do Damian know that? Perhaps because he also looked for that watch when he went to find Martha's pearl, but could not find it, and just think that maybe someone already found it first. I don't know, that's only my wild prediction.
6. Batman works together with Harley is completely OOC on Batman's part. Really, why? She KILLS people. She's undisciplined. She's ruthless. Her former boyfriend is Batman's villain and her current girlfriend is also kinda Batman's villain.

I think that's all.

----------


## Will Evans

Ace the Bathound was the only one of the Batman cast that died in Cataclysm.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

Screw Batgirl
Babs is better as Oracle
Steph is better as Spoiler
Cass is just fine as Orphan

It’s an overrated mantle, that it’s holders are all better than, and better without.

----------


## John Venus

> I think The Batman (which aired from 2004 to 2008) is a more consistently enjoyable series overall than BTAS. It never quite reaches the heights of BTAS, but it also has really consistent quality and I prefer its takes on several villains, including Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin, Clayface, and Joker. The Penguin in BTAS is a really bland version, while The Batman's Penguin is a really fun, comedic take that is a pathetic loser. Mark Hamill is unmatchable, but the writing for the animated series Joker was inconsistent and the only great Joker centric episodes, IMO, are "Laughing Fish" and "Mad Love". The Batman, meanwhile, does a better job at having the Joker be both hilarious and genuinely creepy and disturbing (that design does a lot of the work) and almost every Joker episode is really good, with a few of them ("Strange Minds" and "The laughing Bat") being some of my favorite Joker stories in any medium. 
> 
> I also like that The Batman has more continuity and we really get to see Bruce Wayne grow and evolve. We see him go from a year one type Batman who had only fought regular criminals and mobsters into the traditional Batman from modern comics with a full fledged rogues gallery and several sidekicks. The anthology style of BTAs worked, but it prevented that kind of development in some ways. 
> 
> Plus, The Batman's version of Bruce Wayne cured Vampirism. That is all.


I agree with most of this. Especially the part about seeing Bruce grow from vigilante to full fledged JL member with a Rogues Gallery.  I actually prefer the show's version of Firefly over his TNBA counterpart. Mark Hamill is still my favorite Joker out of all the mediums because of his laughter alone. I enjoyed 'The Batmans' take on the Joker just as much as I did B:TAS. I figured that if you are going to do a marital arts centric Batman show where even the Joker is a martial artist then, it makes sense for him to have a mad monkey fighting style, it plays to his character than detracting from him. I also like the fact that the show didn't hesitate to show Joker's cruelty given that he's responsible for Ethan Bennet's condition. There were genuinely great Joker episodes in the show like the one where he kidnapped Yin and Batman nearly goes insane by going into Joker's mind or the one where Joker dressed up as Batman while turning the real Batman into Joker.  

Speaking of Bennet, I enjoyed his arc from Bruce Wayne's friend and Batman supporter to tragic villain to full fledged villain and then finally redeeming himself at the end.  Barbara was fun and I like that Poison Ivy was her arch nemesis in the show and the sibling relationship she had with Dick Grayson.

----------


## John Venus

> Screw Batgirl
> Babs is better as Oracle
> Steph is better as Spoiler
> Cass is just fine as Orphan
> 
> Its an overrated mantle, that its holders are all better than, and better without.


I can't say I disagree with this. Though I prefer Cass as Black Bat and from there you realize, she could have always just been Black Bat.  

I like Babs as Batgirl but it's pointless if she can't graduate to Oracle. Steph loses her uniqueness and becomes a Babs-lite as Batgirl.

----------


## godisawesome

> I can't say I disagree with this. Though I prefer Cass as Black Bat and from there you realize, she could have always just been Black Bat.  
> 
> I like Babs as Batgirl but it's pointless if she can't graduate to Oracle. Steph loses her uniqueness and becomes a Babs-lite as Batgirl.


The 3/4 Batgirls are a bit unique from the Robins in that 3 of them were created and introduced with a great deal of time between their heydays and the next one; Better had been out of continuity for years before Babas showed up, and Babs had been Oracle for years before Cass showed up. Only Steph picked up the mantle right after her predecessor, and she was deliberately made to contrast with Cass in the role, and had already established an identity for herself. 

Each one was thus a little bit more developed in a different way around the general concept of Batgirl, unlike the Robins, where all were intended to fill a usually familiar role.

----------


## mathew101281

> The 3/4 Batgirls are a bit unique from the Robins in that 3 of them were created and introduced with a great deal of time between their heydays and the next one; Better had been out of continuity for years before Babas showed up, and Babs had been Oracle for years before Cass showed up. Only Steph picked up the mantle right after her predecessor, and she was deliberately made to contrast with Cass in the role, and had already established an identity for herself. 
> 
> Each one was thus a little bit more developed in a different way around the general concept of Batgirl, unlike the Robins, where all were intended to fill a usually familiar role.


I agree. Visually all the Robins are quite similar and they all play the surrogate son (or in Damian's case actual son) role. The Batgirls are all fundamentally different in their roles. 

To Babs is just better as Oracle, nothing that has happened to her since being returned to batgirl status, has really convinced me otherwise. Burnside was okay, and everything else since then has been mostly forgettable. Hardly worth getting rid of one of the most unique superheroes for. To me Cass was the best Batgirl. I can take Steph as Batgirl or Spoiler.

----------


## Tzigone

> Visually all the Robins are quite similar and they all play the surrogate son (or in Damian's case actual son) role.


I really liked when Tim had his own living dad and was living with him and was definitely not viewing Bruce as a surrogate dad.  Sad to see that lost.

----------


## marhawkman

> Screw Batgirl
> Babs is better as Oracle
> Steph is better as Spoiler
> Cass is just fine as Orphan
> 
> Its an overrated mantle, that its holders are all better than, and better without.


Misfit decided she didn't want the name after Oracle showed her pics of what happened to her and Steph. O_o'

----------


## AmiMizuno

I kind of wonder. I know I shouldn't be thinking about it. But why Yellow and Red? I know each Robin has somewhat their own color scheme but both Dick and Jason have the same brighter colors. Was it due to the circus?  I get it maybe. You never know who can be a criminal in Gotham. So is that the reason why the police never question why Bruce has a young boy fighting criminal? Maybe Gordon should know Batman is

----------


## Stars & Stripes

> I kind of wonder. I know I shouldn't be thinking about it. But why Yellow and Red? I know each Robin has somewhat their own color scheme but both Dick and Jason have the same brighter colors. Was it due to the circus?  I get it maybe. You never know who can be a criminal in Gotham. So is that the reason why the police never question why Bruce has a young boy fighting criminal? Maybe Gordon should know Batman is


Are actual robins yellow and red?

----------


## Tzigone

> Are actual robins yellow and red?


When was the first time anyone referenced the bird in regards to Robin?  I mean, I know he started with references to Robin Hood.  And I've read a synopsis of different ways he's gotten his superhero name. But I mean, the first time any villain or really anyone else referenced a bird in regards to Robin.  The Robin Hood association is not an easy one to make, IMO, and with Batman referencing an animal, I can see the villain or general populous thinking in the avian direction.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I know one reference is due to his mom calling him Robin. But I don't know how to feel that the mantle of Robin is due to his dead mom

----------


## Gotham citizen

It happened in the animated series "The Batman" (in the episode "A matter of family") and it was actually used to justify the adoption of the name Robin by Dick; I don't know is the same thing it has happened also in some comic.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Are actual robins yellow and red?


American Robins are red-breasted with black back, which is the inspiration for Tim's second costume

The original Robin costume is a mix of Robin Hood (pixie boots and medieval tunic) circus costume (yellow cape and short shorts) and maybe swashbuckling Zorro who's also the inspiration for Batman (domino mask)




> I know one reference is due to his mom calling him Robin. But I don't know how to feel that the mantle of Robin is due to his dead mom


Think of it like Bruce was inspired to be Batman after a bat broke in and landed on Thomas Wayne's bust. It's a respectful homage 




> It happened in the animated series "The Batman" (in the episode "A matter of family") and it was actually used to justify the adoption of the name Robin by Dick; I don't know is the same thing it has happened also in some comic.


Dark Victory and New 52

----------


## Zaresh

Huh, Tim's first RR coatume looks a lot like a redstart to me (a bird I didn't know existed until today, funny enough).

Robins here are brown/grey, white and dark orange.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Huh, Tim's first RR coatume looks a lot like a redstart to me (a bird I didn't know existed until today, funny enough).
> 
> Robins here are brown/grey, white and dark orange.


You're in Spain, right? Yeah. European Robins are that color.

----------


## Zaresh

> You're in Spain, right? Yeah. European Robins are that color.


Yep.
Huh, so it's not only where the reddish colour is, it's also the hues that are different. I didn't know.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. In a sense, the Robin mantle is about all the lost children trying to find their way. I  mean no all robins have green in Batman. like Tim has black. I mean did everyone ever even ask batman why there was a child helping him?

----------


## Restingvoice

> True. In a sense, the Robin mantle is about all the lost children trying to find their way. I  mean no all robins have green in Batman. like Tim has black. I mean did everyone ever even ask batman why there was a child helping him?


In the modern interpretation, yes

----------


## nhienphan2808

> When was the first time anyone referenced the bird in regards to Robin?  I mean, I know he started with references to Robin Hood.  And I've read a synopsis of different ways he's gotten his superhero name. But I mean, the first time any villain or really anyone else referenced a bird in regards to Robin.  The Robin Hood association is not an easy one to make, IMO, and with Batman referencing an animal, I can see the villain or general populous thinking in the avian direction.


Really early actually. i remember it was a 1942-1946 Golden Age issue.

----------


## Alan2099

The old pre-crisis explanation was that Bruce Wayne originally came up with the costume to hide his identity.  He was trying to impress "the world's greatest detective" so the guy would teach him.  After saving the detective's life, the guy gave Bruce the name.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I feel like Joker shouldn't know who the Batfam is. I feel like in a sense it takes away how here and many villains see him. In a sense yea, he is a normal guy and yet he isn't to them.

----------


## godisawesome

My controversial opinion would be that a Damain Wayne who hangs out mostly with Dick isn’t as interesting as a Damian Wayne who hangs out with Tim or Steph.

That’s how I came to like the character; seeing people have a more hostile relationship with him but make it work anyways, and with a deliberate contrast between “Goody two shoes” Tim and “ex-screw-up” Steph.

The main reason I don’t care about the DTV storylines with Damian is because without either one of them to highlight and occasionally mock his more bratty characteristics more than Dick does, he mostly just comes off as the jerk I didn’t like in the first place.

----------


## Jackalope89

> My controversial opinion would be that a Damain Wayne who hangs out mostly with Dick isn’t as interesting as a Damian Wayne who hangs out with Tim or Steph.
> 
> That’s how I came to like the character; seeing people have a more hostile relationship with him but make it work anyways, and with a deliberate contrast between “Goody two shoes” Tim and “ex-screw-up” Steph.
> 
> The main reason I don’t care about the DTV storylines with Damian is because without either one of them to highlight and occasionally mock his more bratty characteristics more than Dick does, he mostly just comes off as the jerk I didn’t like in the first place.


Damian and Steph in Steph's Batgirl series was gold. However, Steph basically brushed off Damian's hostility and treated him like a little brother. Argued, and threw petty insults, but she still looked out for him (and made him dress like a typical 10 year old).

Damian and Tim... That's kind of hard to do. Jason and Tim at least had a chapter where they could talk things out. Damian and Tim, well, I don't think that's ever been done. Its more or less been swept under the rug (though it still thrives in fanfics).

----------


## nhienphan2808

> My controversial opinion would be that a Damain Wayne who hangs out mostly with Dick isn’t as interesting as a Damian Wayne who hangs out with Tim or Steph.
> 
> That’s how I came to like the character; seeing people have a more hostile relationship with him but make it work anyways, and with a deliberate contrast between “Goody two shoes” Tim and “ex-screw-up” Steph.


Agreed. I would like to see Bruce and a Talia that hasnt been screwed over by Morrison interact healthily more with him too. To me all of them are more interesting than Dick. Dick should work as only his mentor.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean I think a lot of why Dick and Damian are well liked is due to Dick taking the role of Batman. That worked well together. The other issue is they often have Daimian be the asshole  despite lowing him down in other comics. I wouldn't mind if he had other relationships.

----------


## marhawkman

> I mean I think a lot of why Dick and Damian are well liked is due to Dick taking the role of Batman. That worked well together. The other issue is they often have Daimian be the asshole  despite lowing him down in other comics. I wouldn't mind if he had other relationships.


Damian often ends up in the role of speaking for the audience.  Batman is like "This is the Bat-code of Conduct", and then Damian is like: "so why is there an entire chapter on how killing the Joker is bad?"

----------


## qwazer07

Damian should not exist. Worst Robin and an embarrassment to the Robin and Wayne legacy. His character development is either stagnant or reversing. Jason should be the one calling out Bruce. Damian is a kid! What the hell does he know about life! Would you people listen to a 10 year old about life? Dick and Tim as Robin never argued about adult matters. They were humble and learned to follow because they don't have the ego and pride of Damian.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Damian should not exist. Worst Robin and an embarrassment to the Robin and Wayne legacy. His character development is either stagnant or reversing. Jason should be the one calling out Bruce. Damian is a kid! What the hell does he know about life! Would you people listen to a 10 year old about life? Dick and Tim as Robin never argued about adult matters. They were humble and learned to follow because they don't have the ego and pride of Damian.


Agreed. Plus, his entire claim to Robin-hood is the fact that his dad is Batman.

----------


## The tall man

> Damian should not exist. Worst Robin and an embarrassment to the Robin and Wayne legacy. His character development is either stagnant or reversing. Jason should be the one calling out Bruce. Damian is a kid! What the hell does he know about life! Would you people listen to a 10 year old about life? Dick and Tim as Robin never argued about adult matters. They were humble and learned to follow because they don't have the ego and pride of Damian.


I echo this. Damian is only relevant because of the "Son of Batman" tagline, and he is used as a club to hammer Bruce as the absolute worst person/father in the world. If he was Talia's and some other person's kid he probably would have been sent into limbo like Wonder Woman's brother. But the funny thing is for as much as Damian fans bash Bruce, if there is any suggestion of Damian not being Bruce's son they get upset. The whole Deathstroke vs Batman storyline is a perfect example. The mere suggestion that Slade and not Bruce was Damian's father made some people mad. So they hate Batman but love that Damian is his son and all the benefits and exposure that brings.

----------


## dietrich

> Agreed. Plus, his entire claim to Robin-hood is the fact that his dad is Batman.


No it isn't. He was a kid alone working as a hero in Gotham who needed saving. You know whole The reason Dick created Robin.

The reason why Bruce took in the boys he did. He needed family since his dad was dead and his mum disowned him because he became a hero and he was alone.

----------


## dietrich

> I echo this. Damian is only relevant because of the "Son of Batman" tagline, and he is used as a club to hammer Bruce as the absolute worst person/father in the world. If he was Talia's and some other person's kid he probably would have been sent into limbo like Wonder Woman's brother. But the funny thing is for as much as Damian fans bash Bruce, if there is any suggestion of Damian not being Bruce's son they get upset. The whole Deathstroke vs Batman storyline is a perfect example. The mere suggestion that Slade and not Bruce was Damian's father made some people mad. So they hate Batman but love that Damian is his son and all the benefits and exposure that brings.


Writers don't need Damian to make Bruce look like a bad father.  Bruce is crappy with all his kids.

----------


## godisawesome

> Writers don't need Damian to make Bruce look like a bad father.  Bruce is crappy with all his kids.


I actually think it works better when Bruce is allowed to be in a weird place as a father, where he’s a genuinely good fraternal mentor, parental figure, and sensei half the time, and flawed but not really crappy, with the exception of Damian, where just a bad combination of the wrong similarities and differences makes a more tumultuous and dysfunctional relationship with the actual blood son compared to the other kids.

Dick is more like a younger brother who Bruce has a generally great relationship with, but some brutally rough patches.

Jason and Bruce had an almost entirely positive relationship... which is why Jason reacted so badly when Bruce didn’t avenge his death.

Tim is a goody little two shoes who tried to maintain more of a straight up sensei-student relationship, and a pseudo-paternal relationship developed over time.

Damian is simply a rough mix of some of Bruce’s own prickly nature and an even more anti-social upbringing... which ironically means that the people best suited to deal with him are the ultimate people person in Dick and someone who had to deal with the prickliest side of Bruce in Stephanie.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Agreed. Plus, his entire claim to Robin-hood is the fact that his dad is Batman.


His claim to the Robin identity is actually that Dick Grayson, the original and most famous Robin, gave him the identity as was his right to do so.

Anyway, Damian (at least Morrison's Damian) is the (distant) second best Robin after Dick.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> No it isn't. He was a kid alone working as a hero in Gotham who needed saving. You know whole The reason Dick created Robin.
> 
> The reason why Bruce took in the boys he did. He needed family since his dad was dead and his mum disowned him because he became a hero and he was alone.


Dick and Jason lost their parents to crime. Bruce, having been in their place, stepped in to provide guidance, to redirect their anger in a more healthy manner.

What's Damien's motivation?

"My dad is Batman, thus I should be Robin, then Batman."

He assumes that he's entitled to the role because of birth. Not because he actually cares about justice, or knows what its like to lose family to crime. His dad is Batman, that's why writers keep him around.

----------


## Agent Z

> Dick and Jason lost their parents to crime. Bruce, having been in their place, stepped in to provide guidance, to redirect their anger in a more healthy manner.
> 
> What's Damien's motivation?
> 
> "My dad is Batman, thus I should be Robin, then Batman."
> 
> He assumes that he's entitled to the role because of birth. Not because he actually cares about justice, or knows what its like to lose family to crime. His dad is Batman, that's why writers keep him around.


Speaking as someone who isn't that big a Damian fan. 

Yes, he does act like an entitled bratt at first (and the goes back to it for a while) but he does believe in the ideals his father fights for and he is trying to escape the corruptive influence of his mother's side of the family.

----------


## Godlike13

Damian being atypical is the point. He suppose to be an anti-Robin of sorts, and buck the traditional norms.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Dick and Jason lost their parents to crime. Bruce, having been in their place, stepped in to provide guidance, to redirect their anger in a more healthy manner.
> 
> What's Damien's motivation?
> 
> "My dad is Batman, thus I should be Robin, then Batman."
> 
> He assumes that he's entitled to the role because of birth. Not because he actually cares about justice, or knows what its like to lose family to crime. His dad is Batman, that's why writers keep him around.


His acting like an entitled brat who believes he should be Batman, but then ending up as the sidekick to Bruce's first and #1 heir who is not blood related and coming to love him as a big brother, is what gives him an awesome arc and very rewarding character dynamic with Dick. Arguably the best one Dick has with any of the other Robins.

----------


## marhawkman

> Damian should not exist. Worst Robin and an embarrassment to the Robin and Wayne legacy. His character development is either stagnant or reversing. Jason should be the one calling out Bruce. Damian is a kid! What the hell does he know about life! Would you people listen to a 10 year old about life? Dick and Tim as Robin never argued about adult matters. They were humble and learned to follow because they don't have the ego and pride of Damian.


Damian was raised by Talia and Ra's.  Part of why he "calls out" Batman is because he's seeing it from Talia's PoV.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Damian being atypical is the point. He suppose to be an anti-Robin of sorts, and buck the traditional norms.


The problem is that rarely does the narrative buck back.

No one tells him that the mantle of the Bat isn't about blood. When he 'died', it's treated as worse than when Jason died. His main motivation remains proving equal or better than Batman, not actually helping people.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The problem is that rarely does the narrative buck back.
> 
> No one tells him that the mantle of the Bat isn't about blood. When he 'died', it's treated as worse than when Jason died. His main motivation remains proving equal or better than Batman, not actually helping people.


Does he still make it all about blood that often, and if so how serious are we meant to take him? 

I doubt his death was treated as much worse than Jason's, which loomed large over the Bat-mythos until his return.

----------


## Godlike13

> The problem is that rarely does the narrative buck back.
> 
> No one tells him that the mantle of the Bat isn't about blood. When he 'died', it's treated as worse than when Jason died. His main motivation remains proving equal or better than Batman, not actually helping people.


The narrative bucks backs all the time. It’s not something that needed to be said, as he became Robin when Dick was Batman. Damian’s motivation remains proving himself in general. Wanting to be Batman is just the face Damian puts to it.

----------


## phantom1592

> I doubt his death was treated as much worse than Jason's, which loomed large over the Bat-mythos until his return.


Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker. 

When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?

I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker. 
> 
> When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?
> 
> I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.


Yeah, but this is one of the times where it really becomes impossible to not think of the out-of-universe reasons for this. Damian was resurrected ASAP because he was more popular than Jason was as Robin at the time, and his death wasn't as full of impact. Jason's death was a far bigger deal and they didn't want to undo it, and they never anticipated future creators bringing him back or move on from Tim as Robin. It also makes little sense why Lazarus pits aren't used for ANY dead hero.

Jason fans shouldn't be miffed, they wouldn't have Red Hood as he is now if Bruce had resurrected him right away :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker. 
> 
> When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?
> 
> I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.


When Jason died Batgod wasn't an issue. The character had limits and the writers and editors respected them.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker. 
> 
> When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?
> 
> I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.


The thing that bothers us Jason fans, is the victim blaming that came after Jason's death. He died a hero, trying to protect his bio-mom, but was remembered as a failed Robin and a kid with anger issues. What's more, before Bruce went off the Apokolips, he made Jason relive his death in order to get closer to saving Damian or something. Re-traumatizing Jason.

There's a reason why there's a growing consensus of Jason fans wanting him _away_ from the Bats and on his own.

----------


## Sergard

I've said it before: The whole batfamily should be retconned out of Jason's life. 
Jason lives in a different city. Jason steals the tires of someone else and winds up in Ma Gunn's school.
The story can progress from there. He meets other mentors and associates and becomes a street-level vigilante who fights crime lords and urban fantasy creatures.
Jason doesn't need any victim-blamers in his life.

----------


## Zaresh

And this is why DC and whoever lets cheap drama run wild over the Batman franchise since years and years ago (edit: and playing favourites) without thinking in the consequences or how that will impact the characters, have achieved: some fans want their character cut from it all. And they're not few.

Bravo.

----------


## Godlike13

That perception is actually to Red Hoods benefit.

----------


## Rise

> I've said it before: The whole batfamily should be retconned out of Jason's life. 
> Jason lives in a different city. Jason steals the tires of someone else and winds up in Ma Gunn's school.
> The story can progress from there. He meets other mentors and associates and becomes a street-level vigilante who fights crime lords and urban fantasy creatures.
> Jason doesn't need any victim-blamers in his life.


Cutting off Batman is cutting off a huge part of what makes Jason the character he is today. You can't simply do that.

And I seriously, seriously hate the victim card because Jason isn't some innocent flower who done nothing wrong in his life. Yes, he was wronged and faced consequences for his actions more than any comic character I have seen (which one of the things I like about him and why many sympathy with him), but he also got his fair share of free passes. Also, the entire family wronged each others at some point or another and never apologised. Writers just simply love cheap drama and writing unnecessary conflict which they never care to deal with its fall out. 




> Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker. 
> 
> When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?
> 
> I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.


That just Tomasi being Tomasi. His writing tend to be way overdramatic and eventually has zero impact on anything. 

Damian is a character I'm conflicted about. I actually think he is far more interesting than Dick and Tim, but his presence really hurt Batman and made him look pretty bad. I still he think he would have worked much better in AU than the main continuity.

----------


## Zaresh

> That perception is actually to Red Hoods befit.


I dunno. I think it's hard to explain Jason's red hood without tying it to the batman and his microuniverse for the main DCU (elsewords and other media are their thing and can experiment and must experipment). I'm not so sold on the idea as my fellow threadmates (it's doable, but  hard). And it robs him of his catharsis and denies his editorial history, all of it, which is something I don't like at all. Think about what could've happened to Dick if the Teen Titans success in the Bronze Age would have meant Dick wasn't a former Robin anymore because they wanted to put distance between both franchises. I don't think it would have been a good thing, would've rip Dick of his history and original reason d'etre.

They clearly have problems now with how to give each character their own standing without putting other in a worse place (understable). But I believe it is possible. They just need the right writers with the right ideas, actual planning and direction (that needs time and stability), and collaborative work, putting aside egos and different, conflicting sensibilities and tastes. It's a rocky road, but there is a road, I think.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker. 
> 
> When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?
> 
> I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.


The difference is that in a case the writers wanted Jason dead, in the other the writers wanted Damian alive. In my humble opinion we can't blame Bruce Wayne for what the writer decided he must did, we should blame the writers for the kind of stories they wrote and how the characters acted in those stories.

----------


## Godlike13

> I dunno. I think it's hard to explain Jason's red hood without tying it to the batman and his microuniverse for the main DCU (elsewords and other media are their thing and can experiment and must experipment). I'm not so sold on the idea as my fellow threadmates (it's doable, but  hard). And it robs him of his catharsis and denies his editorial history, all of it, which is something I don't like at all. Think about what could've happened to Dick if the Teen Titans success in the Bronze Age would have meant Dick wasn't a former Robin anymore because they wanted to put distance between both franchises. I don't think it would have been a good thing, would've rip Dick of his history and original reason d'etre.
> 
> They clearly have problems now with how to give each character their own standing without putting other in a worse place (understable). But I believe it is possible. They just need the right writers with the right ideas, actual planning and direction (that needs time and stability), and collaborative work, putting aside egos and different, conflicting sensibilities and tastes. It's a rocky road, but there is a road, I think.


I meant the perception that Jason failed, or was Bruce’s failure, or has anger issues, etc, etc. It’s to Red Hood’s benefit. Jason would be screwed if he wasn’t Robin, and Red Hood was created on the basis of Jason as a fallen Robin. There is no general appeal to just some kid from Ma Gunns school lol.

----------


## Zaresh

> I meant the perception that Jason failed or has anger issues, etc, etc. It’s to Red Hood’s benefit.


The problem isn't what you mention. Btw, most of the batfam has as many anger issues as Jason. That's not a special trait of his that makes him "unique" or something (if it's what you meant with it). And how did he failed more than any other in the batfam? Because he died? Because he doesn't go with Bruce code to the T? Because he doesn't obey and bows to his authority without a second thought? Because he fought against them? Many, many of Batman's allies have done one or several of those points (inside the family, even) and they "didn't failed."  It's because he kills? So have others too. They made mistakes, or did bad stuff, but that hasn't mean that they "failed."

See, that is actually part of the problem that makes some fans want to cut all ties with the batfranchise. That is the actual victim blaming Sergard was talking about, I think. Pointing to certain character from certain other point of view (Bruce) and say "he failed, he's bad, he's absolutely wrong". Because... because. Like when Jason's time as Robin has been rewritten to be different from how it was, of making him the villain of a story because he's convenient if you make a lot of tweaks to fit some prefabricated role that you like. Or making other characters point and acusse and attack him with weak base because cheap drama that isn't adressed afterwards and has not repercusions for said characters.

This actually annoys me, at least. I can see it being the case for a lot more people. And it sure isn't something good for the character: it's hard to enjoy when your character is being treated like that, like a punching bag or some convenient source of melodrama for the sake of other character alone. I know it by experience, not a joy.

Edit: it's even funny, because they could address some actual deeds and make actual conflicting drama. But that would open a box of worns for other characters  with issues that need to be adressed and I think they don't want to. Also, it requires a lot of work, and ho, that's... work and effort. Cheap drama is always easier and faster, and easier to come with. Yeah, I'm a mad reader now. I hate cheap drama.

----------


## Rise

I'm curious, when did Batman or anyone else blamed Jason for his own death in recent years? The most recent example I can think of is Jason saying it's his own fault in RHATO which you guys argued with me that it's just "unreliable narrative".

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm curious, when did Batman or anyone else blamed Jason for his own death in recent years? The most recent example I can think of is Jason saying it's his own fault in RHATO which you guys argued with me that it's just "unreliable narrative".


I didn't mean in recent years. I think the last time someone blamed Jason besides himself in the comics was Damian. But it was many years ago. I mean, as history has gone in general. They did worked that narrative up till the late 00's. And even when it's not spelled straight, it's still there in the air, that Jason deserves his treatment and fate far more than others. Lately, he's been the bad guy for the good guys "because because" in TT and Leviatan, both cases being pretty silly, because I think it was actually bad behaviour for the good guys, and meant to be read that way. But then you end with Jason being presented as a straight bad guy anyways because some people just take what's spelled in the surface in those stories and also is the idea that rolls better with what the general audience thinks something is. And that's how you end with Jason being drawn with a ton of villains and being described as one in some summaries and stuff (and that's how he is going to be remembered in some cases). I'm thinking about how he has been used outside his book in the last two, three years (ok, four, too. 2020 already, wow) and, even when it's definitely an improvement, it could be better.

Jason blaming himself about his own death makes sense for his character. Not blaming Bruce also makes sense. It's how he is, especially under Lobdell. But outside of that, eh...

----------


## Rise

Zaresh, no offense, but it's a bit silly to be upest over something that happened long ago and _it's not happening right now_. It was a different time under different writers and many of us didn't even know or care about Jason back then.

And he wasn't the "bad guy" in TT or Leviatan nor he was intended to be by the writers. He actually end up looking the better man out there while the people who blamed him end up looking bad. I personally enjoyed these appearances because it proved that Red Hood is ruthless when he needs to be and won't stand there and simply take it like what happened with Batman in issue 25 in RHATO. I also thought it was flattering that the heroes thought he was responsiblefor something as big as that  and Jason was the one who made the world think he is a bad guy anyway. 

I would say instead of demanding Jason to be "cut off" from Batman, demands a better writing.

----------


## qwazer07

> His acting like an entitled brat who believes he should be Batman, but then ending up as the sidekick to Bruce's first and #1 heir who is not blood related and coming to love him as a big brother, is what gives him an awesome arc and very rewarding character dynamic with Dick. Arguably the best one Dick has with any of the other Robins.


Tim and Dick > Damian and Dick. Read more 90s and 00s comics. I recomend reading A Lonely Place of Dying. It would blow your mind and make you appreciate Tim Drake's greatness.

----------


## Tzigone

> Tim and Dick > Damian and Dick. Read more 90s and 00s comics. I recomend reading A Lonely Place of Dying. It would blow your mind and make you appreciate Tim Drake's greatness.


I've read it. I enjoy the Tim & Dick dynamic of old (though a bit later than this). But I don't agree that Tim Drake has "greatness" any more so than plenty of other characters - I like the 90s version of the character. Loathed his early Red Robin (fell to the "make others look less competent to make Tim look good" thing that I hate with Batman). Dislike the broody supergenius best-ever-detective version (and I liked him not being Bruce's kid, too).  Of course, I also think Dick's character has gone downhill in the last 20 years, too, so there's that.

And others can definitely favor the Dick/Damian dynamic over Dick/Tim - they are very different dynamics, and different characters, and it's fine for people to like different things.  I just dislike people being told "read X and you'll agree with me" when sometimes I've read X, and still don't agree.  Particularly, I find "A Lonely Piece of Dying" not one of my favorite bits of Tim - the entire "Batman's going violent" bit was a problem created for him to fix that didn't exist a bit earlier after Jason died. It's kinda like all the sudden Batman needs Oracle to do his tech work, when in the past he did it fine on his own - feels a bit forced. And Tim's attitude was kinda disturbing, and in the early days had some _very_ unhealthy attitudes towards Batman (and that ties into victim-blaming Jason, too). Tim's much better later on when Dixon was writing him, IMO.

----------


## qwazer07

> I've read it. I enjoy the Tim & Dick dynamic of old. But I don't agree that Tim Drake has "greatness" any more so than plenty of other characters - I like the 90s version of the character. Loathed his early Red Robin (fell to the "make others look less competent to make Tim look good" thing that I hate with Batman). Dislike the broody supergenius best-ever-detective version (and I liked him not being Bruce's kid, too).  Of course, I also think Dick's character has gone downhill in the last 20 years, too, so there's that.
> 
> And others can definitely favor the Dick/Damian dynamic over Dick/Tim - they are very different dynamics, and different characters, and it's fine for people to like different things.  I just dislike people being told "read X and you'll agree with me" when sometimes I've read X, and still don't agree.


I don't agree with what you said but you do you.

----------


## Godlike13

> The problem isn't what you mention. Btw, most of the batfam has as many anger issues as Jason. That's not a special trait of his that makes him "unique" or something (if it's what you meant with it). And how did he failed more than any other in the batfam? Because he died? Because he doesn't go with Bruce code to the T? Because he doesn't obey and bows to his authority without a second thought? Because he fought against them? Many, many of Batman's allies have done one or several of those points (inside the family, even) and they "didn't failed."  It's because he kills? So have others too. They made mistakes, or did bad stuff, but that hasn't mean that they "failed."
> 
> See, that is actually part of the problem that makes some fans want to cut all ties with the batfranchise. That is the actual victim blaming Sergard was talking about, I think. Pointing to certain character from certain other point of view (Bruce) and say "he failed, he's bad, he's absolutely wrong". Because... because. Like when Jason's time as Robin has been rewritten to be different from how it was, of making him the villain of a story because he's convenient if you make a lot of tweaks to fit some prefabricated role that you like. Or making other characters point and acusse and attack him with weak base because cheap drama that isn't adressed afterwards and has not repercusions for said characters.
> 
> This actually annoys me, at least. I can see it being the case for a lot more people. And it sure isn't something good for the character: it's hard to enjoy when your character is being treated like that, like a punching bag or some convenient source of melodrama for the sake of other character alone. I know it by experience, not a joy.
> 
> Edit: it's even funny, because they could address some actual deeds and make actual conflicting drama. But that would open a box of worns for other characters  with issues that need to be adressed and I think they don't want to. Also, it requires a lot of work, and ho, that's... work and effort. Cheap drama is always easier and faster, and easier to come with. Yeah, I'm a mad reader now. I hate cheap drama.


Most of the Batfamily haven’t cut off heads and stuffed them in a bag. Jason was brought back to be bad. They might have watered him down now a days, but all the so called “victim blaming” and the negative perception over his time as Robin was spun to his benefit as Red Hood as he was originally envisioned. The idea of him as the fallen Robin is still where his general appeal lies even.

----------


## Zaresh

> Zaresh, no offense, but it's a bit silly to be upest over something that happened long ago and _it's not happening right now_. It was a different time under different writers and many of us didn't even know or care about Jason back then.


It probably is a bit silly, yeah. I'm a silly person sometimes. Still, can't help it, because I read it not so long ago and it sat me wrong. Sigh, the "perks" of being a late reader.




> And he wasn't the "bad guy" in TT or Leviatan nor he was intended to be by the writers. He actually end up looking the better man out there while the people who blamed him end up looking bad. I personally enjoyed these appearances because it proved that Red Hood is ruthless when he needs to be and won't stand there and simply take it like what happened with Batman in issue 25 in RHATO. I also thought it was flattering that the heroes thought he was responsiblefor something as big as that  and Jason was the one who made the world think he is a bad guy anyway. 
> 
> I would say instead of demanding Jason to be "cut off" from Batman, demands a better writing.


I'm aware of it. But I'm also aware of people not getting the intent behind it and believing the false narrative of him being the bad guy (edit: in those stories). And of the writers not addressing how the supposed heroes have messed up with their accusations. As I said, it's funny, because it's easy to work with what Jason actually does wrong. But it's problematic for other characters that they want to promote, like Harley Quinn or Bruce himself if you want to be thorough with the matter. For all that I don't like about King's writing, I actually liked that he used the fact that Bruce is brutal to some of his enemies to ridiculous and dangerous levels, even if in the end it didn't went somewhere, for example.

Edit: I mean, I also want better writing, but one often doesn't get what one wants. I can see why others want to sever ties.

----------


## Zaresh

> Most of the Batfamily haven’t cut off heads and stuffed them in a bag. Jason was brought back to be bad. They might have watered him down now a days, but all the so called “victim blaming” and the negative perception over his time as Robin was spun to his benefit as Red Hood as he was originally envisioned. The idea of him as the fallen Robin is still where his general appeal lies even.


We have already had this discussion and it's clear that you only like the character as a villain and a straight bad guy, and disregard every shade in his character that contradicts that, justifying certain retcons, but not others, and not forgiving certain things for him, but not for others. It's not your fave, you don't like him for strong reasons, and it shows. I can't argue with you, it's a discussion that will go nowhere again, and I'm now not in the mood to be mad for yet another thing I can't change (not that I should, anyways. To each their own).

----------


## Godlike13

> We have already had this discussion and it's clear that you only like the character as a villain and a straight bad guy, and disregard every shade in his character that contradicts that, justifying certain retcons, but not others, and not forgiving certain things for him, but not for others. It's not your fave, you don't like him for strong reasons, and it shows. I can't argue with you, it's a discussion that will go nowhere again, and I'm now not in the mood to be mad for yet another thing I can't change (not that I should, anyways. To each their own).


What I like is irrelevant to my point. They leaned into the negative perceptions with Red Hood. They still do. Why do you think you still see things like the “Dark” Trinity. This victim complex some Jason fans have is misguided. Those negative perceptions actually serve Red Hood.

----------


## Zaresh

> What I like is irrelevant to my point. They leaned into the negative perceptions with Red Hood. They still do. Why do you think you still see things like the “Dark” Trinity. This victim complex some Jason fans have is misguided. Those negative perceptions actually serve Red Hood.


How it helps him? Because I think I'm not getting your point.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Tim and Dick > Damian and Dick. Read more 90s and 00s comics. I recomend reading A Lonely Place of Dying. It would blow your mind and make you appreciate Tim Drake's greatness.


I've read enough 90s and 00s comics, and don't find Tim or his dynamic with Dick terribly interesting.

So for me, it's still Dick and Damian>Dick and Tim by a longshot. But I find the Dixon era in general to not be for me as far as Batman content goes.

----------


## Light of Justice

Man, this whole victim blaming debate remind me of a post I see on twitter. Glad I can find it.
Screenshot_2020-05-08-00-13-05-633_com.twitter.android.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

> How it helps him? Because I think I'm not getting your point.


It fed into his motivations as Red Hood, and still feeds into his general appeal. Its why you still see marketing titles like ‘Outlaw’ and ‘Dark Trinity’.

----------


## Zaresh

> It’s fed into his motivations as Red Hood, and still feeds into his general appeal.


You mean, it feds his reasons to be in conflict with others because they blame him no matter what he has or hasn't done? That's the only way I could see that it would be a good thing for him, making him sympathetic (at the cost of picturing other characters under a bad light and making them be out of character. Cheap drama).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Being the black sheep "bad boy" of the Bat-family and being in periodic conflict with them is a big part of Jason's gimmick and set up as Red Hood.

----------


## Will Evans

I liked Cassandra’s identity of Black Bat over Batgirl and Orphan.

----------


## randomideaguy

Mine would have to be that Batman should be depicted as a more hopeful person. I would think he would justify his "no kill" rule as giving other people a chance to redeem themselves. Then just show that in a storyline with a more sympathetic villain (Killer Croc?). A guy who won't kill the Joker under any circumstances ever has to have a superhuman belief in human redemption.

----------


## Elmo

> Man, this whole victim blaming debate remind me of a post I see on twitter. Glad I can find it.
> Screenshot_2020-05-08-00-13-05-633_com.twitter.android.jpg


ok but war games was objectively stephanie's fault, at least partly

----------


## Elmo

> I liked Cassandra’s identity of Black Bat over Batgirl and Orphan.


can I ask why? is it just the name you like? cass to me is the quintessential Batgirl, although i'm a sucker for babs too

----------


## Will Evans

> can I ask why? is it just the name you like? cass to me is the quintessential Batgirl, although i'm a sucker for babs too


She seemed more independent. And more grown up. I liked the costume better as well.

Just like how I prefer Dick Grayson to be Nightwing instead of Robin.

----------


## Elmo

> She seemed more independent. And more grown up. I liked the costume better as well.
> 
> Just like how I prefer Dick Grayson to be Nightwing instead of Robin.


yeah that's fair. i'm a sucker for legacy characters who take on a role and make that role distinctly their own. but it's also just as great for them to have their own independent identities. 

sometimes I think the "independent" identities can be a little dull. Bluebird and Drake are a couple examples of ones i dislike

----------


## marhawkman

> Mine would have to be that Batman should be depicted as a more hopeful person. I would think he would justify his "no kill" rule as giving other people a chance to redeem themselves. Then just show that in a storyline with a more sympathetic villain (Killer Croc?). A guy who won't kill the Joker under any circumstances ever has to have a superhuman belief in human redemption.


Yeah that would be better than the current one.

----------


## randomideaguy

> ok but war games was objectively stephanie's fault, at least partly


It’s Bruce’s fault for making her feel like she needed to so War Games to prove herself. He was such a tool when it came to Steph. I’d love to see a comic run where he’s teamed up with the kids he was the worst to (Jason & Steph) and forced to work together / apologize.

----------


## Sergard

> It’s Bruce’s fault for making her feel like she needed to so War Games to prove herself. He was such a tool when it came to Steph. I’d love to see a comic run where he’s teamed up with the kids he was the worst to (Jason & Steph) and forced to work together / apologize.


Stephanie was never Robin in this continuity, so War Games didn't happen (I think). It's hard to apologize for something that Bruce can't remember.
But I definitely wouldn't say no to a team-up between Bruce and Stephanie. Preferably without Tim. Nothing against Tim, but Stephanie is more than "Tim's girlfriend."

And Jason has already forgiven Bruce in Batman: Under the Red Hood for not saving him (Not sure if Bruce has actually even blamed himself for not saving Jason.). I also can't recall if Jason has ever called anybody out for blaming him for his own death. That was never part of Jason's conflict with Bruce (I'm not even sure if he knows about the victim-blaming. That's not really a topic for some small talk. Dick: "Oh yeah, Jason. I don't know if you know but we all blame you for your own death. You know, falling for Joker's trap, the torture and being blown up - totally all your fault."). Even when Damian put the crowbar in Jason's bed in Batman and Robin, Jason never called Damian out on it. Actually, the next time Jason and Damian interact, Jason catches a falling Damian. It's not a "he saved his life" moment but he at least prevented Damian from being harmed. The victim-blaming isn't something that has hurt the character personally in-universe. It just makes the people who say it look bad.

And what's even the point of a "forced" apology? That doesn't feel genuine.
Especially since Bruce is already apologizing a lot, probably the most within the family - at least that's how I feel. Bruce has apologized enough. At this point, writers should just stop writing stories that make Bruce - or anyone in the family, to be honest - questionable. There has been enough batdrama, there's no need for more drama for the next ten years.

----------


## randomideaguy

> Stephanie was never Robin in this continuity, so War Games didn't happen (I think). It's hard to apologize for something that Bruce can't remember.
> But I definitely wouldn't say no to a team-up between Bruce and Stephanie. Preferably without Tim. Nothing against Tim, but Stephanie is more than "Tim's girlfriend."
> 
> And Jason has already forgiven Bruce in Batman: Under the Red Hood for not saving him (Not sure if Bruce has actually even blamed himself for not saving Jason.). I also can't recall if Jason has ever called anybody out for blaming him for his own death. That was never part of Jason's conflict with Bruce (I'm not even sure if he knows about the victim-blaming. That's not really a topic for some small talk. Dick: "Oh yeah, Jason. I don't know if you know but we all blame you for your own death. You know, falling for Joker's trap, the torture and being blown up - totally all your fault."). Even when Damian put the crowbar in Jason's bed in Batman and Robin, Jason never called Damian out on it. Actually, the next time Jason and Damian interact, Jason catches a falling Damian. It's not a "he saved his life" moment but he at least prevented Damian from being harmed. The victim-blaming isn't something that has hurt the character personally in-universe. It just makes the people who say it look bad.
> 
> And what's even the point of a "forced" apology? That doesn't feel genuine.
> Especially since Bruce is already apologizing a lot, probably the most within the family - at least that's how I feel. Bruce has apologized enough. At this point, writers should just stop writing stories that make Bruce - or anyone in the family, to be honest - questionable. There has been enough batdrama, there's no need for more drama for the next ten years.


For Jason, I was imagining something along the lines of that part in Good Will Hunting where he keeps saying “it’s not your fault”. Steph I would make Robin for at least 3 issues so she has a total of ~one year~ as Robin. It’s some BS that she didn’t even get that far before being fridged.

I don’t think it’s a controversial opinion, but I hate the name Red Robin. I would prefer to go with the rumor that Tim was supposed to become the new Blue Beetle.

----------


## Elmo

Bruce was distraught over Jason, even after Lonely Place of Dying where Tim was introduced. There is that scene in Knightfall where Batman starts mercilessly beating Joker in the sewers while screaming Jason’s name.

Tim is the person who convinces Bruce not to blame himself for Jason’s death, but even still the pain lingers.

----------


## Zaresh

> For Jason, I was imagining something along the lines of that part in Good Will Hunting where he keeps saying “it’s not your fault”. Steph I would make Robin for at least 3 issues so she has a total of ~one year~ as Robin. It’s some BS that she didn’t even get that far before being fridged.
> 
> I don’t think it’s a controversial opinion, but I hate the name Red Robin. I would prefer to go with the rumor that Tim was supposed to become the new Blue Beetle.


But Jaime is lovely. Unless, we're letting them shift turns.

What about Redstart? I think it's a cool name, bird themed, red themed, fits his costume... It's a european bird, but still.

----------


## randomideaguy

> But Jaime is lovely. Unless, we're letting them shift turns.
> 
> What about Redstart? I think it's a cool name, bird themed, red themed, fits his costume... It's a european bird, but still.


It’s better. Very dumb of me but I don’t want too much of the same color. So like Red [XYZ] and Red Hood seems redundant. Granted Nightwing is usually black and blue or black and red, either of which would clash with Blue Beetle / Red Hood. Could either give him a teal birdie on his costume or bring back Discowing (as in my avatar).

----------


## randomideaguy

> Bruce was distraught over Jason, even after Lonely Place of Dying where Tim was introduced. There is that scene in Knightfall where Batman starts mercilessly beating Joker in the sewers while screaming Jasons name.
> 
> Tim is the person who convinces Bruce not to blame himself for Jasons death, but even still the pain lingers.


Random thought but having Jasons death be the traumatic flashback for Bruce instead of another Waynes die in the alley remake would be pretty cool to use in the next movie.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Has Batman ever been hunted down by Gotham? Heck can he even be charged with anything? Maybe child endagmeent. The only other thing maybe would be terroist depending on the Villian.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Has Batman ever been hunted down by Gotham? Heck can he even be charged with anything? Maybe child endagmeent. The only other thing maybe would be terroist depending on the Villian.


Vigilantism.-
law enforcement undertaken without legal authority by a self-appointed group of people.

In the real word, Batman would have a manhunt out for him, including but not limited to;
assault
battery
breaking & entering
tampering with a crime scene
illegal hacking
endangerment of minors

----------


## Restingvoice

> Has Batman ever been hunted down by Gotham? Heck can he even be charged with anything? Maybe child endagmeent. The only other thing maybe would be terroist depending on the Villian.


Year One, Begins, Dark Knight, I think Doomsday Clock?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Year One, Begins, Dark Knight, I think Doomsday Clock?


Adding Gotham Central, Earth One :Big Grin:

----------


## Elmo

> Has Batman ever been hunted down by Gotham? Heck can he even be charged with anything? Maybe child endagmeent. The only other thing maybe would be terroist depending on the Villian.


you should read the Bruce Wayne: Murderer / Fugitive storylines. the concept of Batman being hunted by the police has been done many times, this is where Bruce Wayne is the one they're after. one of my favorite Batman storylines ever

----------


## AmiMizuno

Does Bruce have the power to arrest people?

----------


## Gotham citizen

Well, from a realistic point of view every citizen can arrest a criminal (and doing the private investigations), so the question is: does Batman respect the laws which regulate the private investigations and the arrests made by the citizens? It seems to me that in the past he did, but after Crisis in the Infinite Earths he became more and more disrespectful of those laws.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Well, from a realistic point of view every citizen can arrest a criminal (and doing the private investigations), so the question is: does Batman respect the laws which regulate the private investigations and the arrests made by the citizens? It seems to me that in the past he did, but after Crisis in the Infinite Earths he became more and more disrespectful of those laws.


Err, no.

A citizen can only arrest someone if they see a crime in progress. So that covers the likes of Spider-Man, and Batman when he's on patrol.

A private citizen cannot involve himself in a police investigation (which Batman does). They cannot examine the crime scene (which Batman does). And if they know who the murderer is, they cannot arrest them, but must inform the police (which Batman does not).

I like Batman and all, but in the real world, most of the investigations he assists on would easily get tossed by a first year law grad

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Err, no.
> 
> A citizen can only arrest someone if they see a crime in progress. So that covers the likes of Spider-Man, and Batman when he's on patrol.


Exactly what I have meant.




> A private citizen cannot involve himself in a police investigation (which Batman does). They cannot examine the crime scene (which Batman does). And if they know who the murderer is, they cannot arrest them, but must inform the police (which Batman does not).
> 
> I like Batman and all, but in the real world, most of the investigations he assists on would easily get tossed by a first year law grad


My bad: I wanted say that a citizen can do some kind private investigations, if he is a private investigator, but I was too concise on my comment, so you are right to correct me. Anyway my point wanted to been: there is a boundary between write about a Batman who help the Police to find a criminal and write about a Batman who acts like he were above the law (doing things like steal proofs from the crime scene), a boundary that the writers have passed years ago and they should have never passed; at least in my humble opinion.

----------


## Will Evans

When Stephanie was Batgirl, they should have mentioned her teen pregnancy, and giving the baby away more. Was it a mistake, sure, but it gives more layers to her.

Do most Stephanie fans even know about it?

----------


## Godlike13

It wasn’t relevant.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> My bad: I wanted say that a citizen can do some kind private investigations, if he is a private investigator, but I was too concise on my comment, so you are right to correct me. Anyway my point wanted to been: there is a boundary between write about a Batman who help the Police to find a criminal and write about a Batman who acts like he were above the law (doing things like steal proofs from the crime scene), a boundary that the writers have passed years ago and they should have never passed; at least in my humble opinion.


Even then, though, Batman's actions are super illegal.

Even if he doesn't break into active crime scenes, he trespasses like it's a hobby. He commits assault and battery in every 3rd investigation and I don't recall him ever agreeing to testify in court.

From the very start, Batman's actions were/are 90% illegal. The modern Batman has always been acknowledged as an illegal vigilante, and the only reason that prior Batman's weren't, is because it didn't strain disbelief back then.

----------


## phonogram12

> When Stephanie was Batgirl, they should have mentioned her teen pregnancy, and giving the baby away more. Was it mistake, sure, but it gives more layers to her.
> 
> Do most Stephanie fans even know about it?


I'm not sure, but it should've been mentioned. It just seems incredibly callous otherwise.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

There was an editorial mandate not to mention Steph's pregnancy or baby during her Batgirl series.

----------


## phonogram12

> There was an editorial mandate not to mention Steph's pregnancy or baby during her Batgirl series.


Well, that explains that incredibly bad creative choice.

----------


## Will Evans

> Well, that explains that incredibly bad creative choice.


Did the same thing happen to Selena?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Even then, though, Batman's actions are super illegal.
> 
> Even if he doesn't break into active crime scenes, he trespasses like it's a hobby. He commits assault and battery in every 3rd investigation and I don't recall him ever agreeing to testify in court.
> 
> From the very start, Batman's actions were/are 90% illegal. The modern Batman has always been acknowledged as an illegal vigilante, and the only reason that prior Batman's weren't, is because it didn't strain disbelief back then.


I think in a sense one reason why the police let it go is the fact they do need his help.

I have to ask is Batman in part for some villains madness?

----------


## phonogram12

> Did the same thing happen to Selena?


Yep. Another bad choice. But then again, that kid probably doesn't exist anymore than Stephanie's, Roy Harper's, or Oliver Queen's since the new 52.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I think in a sense one reason why the police let it go is the fact they do need his help.



That's been the stated reason, more than once. And really, seeing as how he has a repeat Rogues gallery, he doesn't enable most of the criminals he faces to go free




> I have to ask is Batman in part for some villains madness?


I don't think he should be. I prefer Johns' stance, that Batman provokes his rogues to focus their attention on him, instead of spawning them himself

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, that explains that incredibly bad creative choice.


Was it? Again it wasn’t relevant, and part of the point was for Batgirl to be a new beginning for Steph.

----------


## phantom1592

> Even then, though, Batman's actions are super illegal.
> 
> Even if he doesn't break into active crime scenes, he trespasses like it's a hobby. He commits assault and battery in every 3rd investigation and I don't recall him ever agreeing to testify in court.
> 
> From the very start, Batman's actions were/are 90% illegal. The modern Batman has always been acknowledged as an illegal vigilante, and the only reason that prior Batman's weren't, is because it didn't strain disbelief back then.


Honestly, This is a major reason why I hate ANY kind of storyline like the Superhero registration act.. or whatever they're doing now that makes it illegal for kids to be super heroes... 

It has ALWAYS BEEN ILLEGAL TO BE A SUPERHERO!!!!  The cops may not push the issue because the bad guy was going to kill a bunch of people... but at no time in any universe has it ever been a 'right' to wear a mask and punch people in the face.  The Avengers were a gray area for a long time but they had to jump through a lot of government hoops and background checks to get their clearance... and the authorities cut them slack becuase the cops are useless against someone like Kang the Conquerer.... but masks, secret identities, and brawling in the street is always illegal.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yep. Another bad choice. But then again, that kid probably doesn't exist anymore than Stephanie's, Roy Harper's, or Oliver Queen's since the new 52.


Honestly, the moment I found out they decided to make them gave the baby away, I knew those babies will never be mentioned again unless they want to make them return as a teenager, angsty or angry. That's just the kind of story I assume they don't want to write in a superhero comic, even before reading it. 

I was surprised they even brought the possibility of a baby up, and when I found out they gave it away, I was like... oh. That's more like what I expected.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Honestly, This is a major reason why I hate ANY kind of storyline like the Superhero registration act.. or whatever they're doing now that makes it illegal for kids to be super heroes... 
> 
> It has ALWAYS BEEN ILLEGAL TO BE A SUPERHERO!!!!  The cops may not push the issue because the bad guy was going to kill a bunch of people... but at no time in any universe has it ever been a 'right' to wear a mask and punch people in the face.  The Avengers were a gray area for a long time but they had to jump through a lot of government hoops and background checks to get their clearance... and the authorities cut them slack becuase the cops are useless against someone like Kang the Conquerer.... but masks, secret identities, and brawling in the street is always illegal.


You can handwave some superheroes, though, in a manner you cannot handwave Batman.

Spidey and most superhumans, typically, stumble across villains too powerful for the cops to handle without massive loss of life, same with Thor, Superman, etc. Functionally speaking, they're firefighters, addressing a threat as they see it and then going on their way (typically. Not always, but typically). They possess powers far above human enabling them to handle a crisis quicker with far less loss of life. 

The same can't be said for Batman and his clan, though. They are exceptionally trained, but still human (within the confines of comics). And they are always involved in investigations, usually involving breaking and entering, assault and battery and I'm sure a few privacy invasions besides (is Gotham a two party consent state?)  :Wink:

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean the thing with kid heroes is more if they are human. Look at the Robins. They are in more danger when their first started. I mean dead children doesn't look good. No one is going to go after Batman for Robin dying. Than again they could.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I mean the thing with kid heroes is more if they are human. Look at the Robins. They are in more danger when their first started. I mean dead children doesn't look good. No one is going to go after Batman for Robin dying. Than again they could.


God, I hate that they've killed every single Robin at one time or another

----------


## AmiMizuno

> God, I hate that they've killed every single Robin at one time or another


Wait So they have killed Dick and Tim at some point?

----------


## Will Evans

> Wait So they have killed Dick and Tim at some point?


Tim was killed off for a bit.

Dick was “killed off” in universe, where the characters thought he was dead. But the readers knew he was alive the whole time.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Tim was killed off for a bit.
> 
> Dick was “killed off” in universe, where the characters thought he was dead. But the readers knew he was alive the whole time.


Tim was? You mean during Rebirth? He wasn't. Oz kidnapped him just before he could be blown up and held him hostage in another dimension for awhile.

----------


## phantom1592

> Tim was? You mean during Rebirth? He wasn't. Oz kidnapped him just before he could be blown up and held him hostage in another dimension for awhile.


That's what he said. The readers knew he was kidnapped, but as far as all the other characters knew... he was dead.

And Dick was 'killed off' for his Grayson run where everyone was upset that he didn't let them know he was alive.

----------


## phantom1592

> You can handwave some superheroes, though, in a manner you cannot handwave Batman.
> 
> Spidey and most superhumans, typically, stumble across villains too powerful for the cops to handle without massive loss of life, same with Thor, Superman, etc. Functionally speaking, they're firefighters, addressing a threat as they see it and then going on their way (typically. Not always, but typically). They possess powers far above human enabling them to handle a crisis quicker with far less loss of life. 
> 
> The same can't be said for Batman and his clan, though. They are exceptionally trained, but still human (within the confines of comics). And they are always involved in investigations, usually involving breaking and entering, assault and battery and I'm sure a few privacy invasions besides (is Gotham a two party consent state?)



Yeah, but it's still handwaving. It's one thing where you deal with giant robots or asteroids about to hit the earth or alien invasions.... but anything that actually involves the bad guys going to jail?! There are procedures that are necessary. Superman flying down and wrapping a lightpost around a jewel thief and leaving them for the cops... very illegal. Crooks can cry whiplash... brutality... The only evidence was something Superman saw with telescopic vison from two miles away... and isn't willing to testify in court about it...  They're totally going to be on the street again in an hour.... or however long it takes to get a Light post unwrapped.

On the best of days, Super Heroes save A LOT of lives from things that normal police would never be able to deal with...  The rest of the time they are a procedural nightmare and a DA's worst enemy.  And I think that's the key. The cops know just how much they need the Heroes and how much good they do... Same way Gordon looks at Batman. but that never makes it 'legal' to do the things they do. 







> I mean the thing with kid heroes is more if they are human. Look at the Robins. They are in more danger when their first started. I mean dead children doesn't look good. No one is going to go after Batman for Robin dying. Than again they could.


That's the beauty of masks.  Robin II didn't die... he retired and went to live on a farm upstate. Just like Robin I. The only person who says Robin II actually 'died' is Joker and he's crazy. Prove him wrong :P

----------


## sifighter

Honestly I hate the disconnect between “Batman” Batman and “DC Universe/Justice League” Batman. See the first is a gritty street hero who some people think works alone besides his Batfamily, can rarely be happy, and deals with gangsters and insane clowns and monsters. The other is considered one of the greatest heroes in the hero community, best friend to Superman and others in the league, has bizarre contingencies and access to a wide variety of dc items like Jarro or hellbat suits, has been to other worlds and dimensions, and is considered so smart and important that he has to be one of the first heroes taken out in a zombie story according to its author.

Personally I don’t want a serious Batman series, I want a Batman series where he will go do ridiculous things. I want to Batman track a money laundering/embezzlement scheme to the American consulate of gorilla city, I want him to solve murders of heads of states for the United planets. I’ll be frank about this, I wouldn’t mind the comics taking the fun energy from Batman the brave and the bold. Sure there can be a serious street crime series, even a couple issues but I kind of want fun Batman. Closest I’ve gotten as of late is Batman Universe.

----------


## phantom1592

> Honestly I hate the disconnect between Batman Batman and DC Universe/Justice League Batman. See the first is a gritty street hero who some people think works alone besides his Batfamily, can rarely be happy, and deals with gangsters and insane clowns and monsters. The other is considered one of the greatest heroes in the hero community, best friend to Superman and others in the league, has bizarre contingencies and access to a wide variety of dc items like Jarro or hellbat suits, has been to other worlds and dimensions, and is considered so smart and important that he has to be one of the first heroes taken out in a zombie story according to its author.
> 
> Personally I dont want a serious Batman series, I want a Batman series where he will go do ridiculous things. I want to Batman track a money laundering/embezzlement scheme to the American consulate of gorilla city, I want him to solve murders of heads of states for the United planets. Ill be frank about this, I wouldnt mind the comics taking the fun energy from Batman the brave and the bold. Sure there can be a serious street crime series, even a couple issues but I kind of want fun Batman. Closest Ive gotten as of late is Batman Universe.


I kind of agree... but to a lesser extent. I frankly like something in the middle.  To me, the core essence of Batman is that he's human. I think Bob Kane wrote in an interview. "He's not Superman. He's not invulnerable. Cut him and he bleeds... Shoot him and he dies."  I love a good and grounded 'human' Batman. Adding too much power to the Human to make him equal to Superman or Darkseid... defeats the point. So yeah, I can do without the Jarros and Hellbat suits. 

That said, he's a rich dude who dresses like a bat to scare clowns with his kid sidekicks... He should NOT be taken TOO serious. the more serious and gritty and grounded you make Batman... the more the entire mythos collapses under it's own absurdity.  I love a good human Batman who just happens to be investigating ghosts or soemthing equeally weird and unprecedented. Brave and the Bold was a good series. I even love the old Adam West series. I still think my favorite era was around the neal Adam's bronze age stuff. Lot of weirdness... still human... best of bost worlds.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yeah, but it's still handwaving. It's one thing where you deal with giant robots or asteroids about to hit the earth or alien invasions.... but anything that actually involves the bad guys going to jail?! There are procedures that are necessary. Superman flying down and wrapping a lightpost around a jewel thief and leaving them for the cops... very illegal. Crooks can cry whiplash... brutality... The only evidence was something Superman saw with telescopic vison from two miles away... and isn't willing to testify in court about it...  They're totally going to be on the street again in an hour.... or however long it takes to get a Light post unwrapped.
> 
> On the best of days, Super Heroes save A LOT of lives from things that normal police would never be able to deal with...  The rest of the time they are a procedural nightmare and a DA's worst enemy.  And I think that's the key. The cops know just how much they need the Heroes and how much good they do... Same way Gordon looks at Batman. but that never makes it 'legal' to do the things they do.


Eh, it varies. Most superheroes catch criminals in the act operating in public (like Rhino literally breaking open a vault). With so many eye witnesses, it wouldn't matter if Spidey showed up in court or not

----------


## phonogram12

> Was it? Again it wasnt relevant, and part of the point was for Batgirl to be a new beginning for Steph.


It was. New beginnings don't mean you ignore a life changing events in a character's past. At least one mention would've done.

----------


## randomideaguy

> Honestly I hate the disconnect between “Batman” Batman and “DC Universe/Justice League” Batman. See the first is a gritty street hero who some people think works alone besides his Batfamily, can rarely be happy, and deals with gangsters and insane clowns and monsters. The other is considered one of the greatest heroes in the hero community, best friend to Superman and others in the league, has bizarre contingencies and access to a wide variety of dc items like Jarro or hellbat suits, has been to other worlds and dimensions, and is considered so smart and important that he has to be one of the first heroes taken out in a zombie story according to its author.
> 
> Personally I don’t want a serious Batman series, I want a Batman series where he will go do ridiculous things. I want to Batman track a money laundering/embezzlement scheme to the American consulate of gorilla city, I want him to solve murders of heads of states for the United planets. I’ll be frank about this, I wouldn’t mind the comics taking the fun energy from Batman the brave and the bold. Sure there can be a serious street crime series, even a couple issues but I kind of want fun Batman. Closest I’ve gotten as of late is Batman Universe.


I first started reading around the time of Dick Grayson’s run as Batman. So my preferred (best of both worlds) scenario is to have Dick as Batman in the League and Bruce as Batman in Gotham.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I have been thinking. Would Dc actually have allowed Dan to kill Dick off? I mean Dick despite sales at times is still popular in the comics

----------


## Will Evans

> I have been thinking. Would Dc actually have allowed Dan to kill Dick off? I mean Dick despite sales at times is still popular in the comics


It depends. 

Dick Grayson is so popular and well known, that the only way to do his death would have to be a big crossover event like Death of Superman or Barry Allen in Crisis on Infinite Earths to pull off.

But then,  Dan would have to admit that Dick was THAT popular to require  that level of big crossover event in the first place. So then he wouldnt do it.

Its a catch-22

----------


## phantom1592

> I have been thinking. Would Dc actually have allowed Dan to kill Dick off? I mean Dick despite sales at times is still popular in the comics



Sure... DC has never been against killing popular selling characters. 

Keeping them dead would be a whole different thing. I can easily see them using Dick to boost some event or something... putting a replacement in his place... then a year later bringing him back.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Question has Batman ever goes and testify in court? Also, Superman and Wonder Woman have generally done speeches. Does Batman ever do that?

----------


## Elmo

> Question has Batman ever goes and testify in court? Also, Superman and Wonder Woman have generally done speeches. Does Batman ever do that?


Batman cannot testify in court, if he did he would be prosecuted for his countless “crimes” such as assault and b&e in the pursuit of justice.

The Dark Knight returns has some of the best Bat speeches ever!!!

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean since he doesn't go do these in Gotham, what makes other states or countries not arrest him? I mean is it because they are willing to overlook these things since he does more good?

----------


## Gotham citizen

Certain things happen because otherwise the title would already ended with Bruce imprisoned. The fictional premise of Batman is: Gotham is a city so messed up that also the help of a masked vigilante is welcomed, so the police, the magistrature and the politicians close their eyes. Anyway there are various stories, in which someone decided to put Batman in a jail, but those stories end every time in the same way: the person who wanted Batman in jail had a second thought; like it happened in "Prey" of Dough Moench.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean since he doesn't go do these in Gotham, what makes other states or countries not arrest him? I mean is it because they are willing to overlook these things since he does more good?


Justice League

----------


## sunofdarkchild

The Justice League does have government/UN sanction in many versions, so I suppose once he's acknowledged as a member his activities become de facto legal.

----------


## The tall man

> I mean since he doesn't go do these in Gotham, what makes other states or countries not arrest him? I mean is it because they are willing to overlook these things since he does more good?


Some may want to arrest him but do they have the ability to do it? Its a common belief that Batman doesn't kill because Gordon will go after him. Gordon and the GCPD are so inept they can't even stop/catch non-powered costume crazies, but they are going catch Batman? And if any law enforcement agencies want to arrest Batman then they should want to arrest every superhero on the planet.

----------


## marhawkman

> Question has Batman ever goes and testify in court? Also, Superman and Wonder Woman have generally done speeches. Does Batman ever do that?


Batman has often assisted law enforcement with obtaining evidence for prosecutions.  Like CC TV footage of crimes, and stuff like that.

----------


## AmiMizuno

For you guys is Superman and Batman's relationship suppose to be bros or should they not be friends. I'm often tired about DC making Bruce way too paranoid.

----------


## Kaitou D. Kid

> Basically the premise is to post opinions about members of the batfamily, or the behind the scenes aspects, that you have realized are controversial opinions to have around these-- or most-- parts.


I like this premise.  :Smile: 

-Authoritarian Batman is boring. Unhappy Batman is boring. Jerk Batman is boring. People, please stop writing him like this. Denny O'Neil, The Animated Series, and Morrison's Batman are what Batman "should" be like.

-Barbara is more interesting as Oracle, but she is not a good supporting character for Batman. I don't buy that Bruce would need Oracle in most cases. Oracle would work better in Birds of Prey than in Batman titles.

-Jason Todd is uninteresting and should be retconned out of canon. Damian Wayne is Jason Todd done right. The only way I wouldn't want Jason retconned is if Dick is ever Batman again.

----------


## godisawesome

> For you guys is Superman and Batman's relationship suppose to be bros or should they not be friends. I'm often tired about DC making Bruce way too paranoid.


I prefer respectful but occasionally rough and aggravating friends. Batman really should be a bit annoyed by Superman’s optimism and faith in humanity while still kind of jealously admiring it, while Clark simply understands Bruce better than most, so he both knows the man’s usually forgivable flaws, and gets a bit insulted whenever Bruce tries to go all “Batman Only” mode on him.

If it were me, I’d have there be an implication that Bruce reminds Clark of Lex’s better days in Smallville.

----------


## Kaitou D. Kid

> For you guys is Superman and Batman's relationship suppose to be bros or should they not be friends. I'm often tired about DC making Bruce way too paranoid.


I like them being bros. I don't think all the talk about them being complementary to one another holds up if they're not bros. As Grant Morrison would say, you need both your best self (Superman) and your dark subconscious (Batman) to work for the good of humanity.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> For you guys is Superman and Batman's relationship suppose to be bros or should they not be friends. I'm often tired about DC making Bruce way too paranoid.


Bros. The only time they should be at odds is when they are first meeting, but they are both smart dudes who should figure out pretty quickly that they have more in common than not.

I'm so over the "light vs. darkness" and "uneasy allies" crap. it's pretentious and not nearly as interesting as some writers think it is. Conflict can work because friends still fight once and a while, but you can't sustain it too long without making one (or both) look really dumb and immature.

----------


## Restingvoice

> For you guys is Superman and Batman's relationship suppose to be bros or should they not be friends. I'm often tired about DC making Bruce way too paranoid.


Bros and that includes the occasional fighting

----------


## Gaius

> For you guys is Superman and Batman's relationship suppose to be bros or should they not be friends. I'm often tired about DC making Bruce way too paranoid.


Bros for life, using their team-ups in_ Batman: Brave and the Bold_ as the template.

----------


## Jackalope89

If they would dial back Bruce's, well, sociopathic tendencies he keeps gaining more of in the modern day (barring a few writers), I'd do the bros thing.

As it stands right now, I'm surprised anyone wants to associated with him.

----------


## marhawkman

> If they would dial back Bruce's, well, sociopathic tendencies he keeps gaining more of in the modern day (barring a few writers), I'd do the bros thing.
> 
> As it stands right now, I'm surprised anyone wants to associated with him.


Well, yeah.  In JL he's often treated as a useful lunatic rather than a valued team mate. :/

----------


## AmiMizuno

So where should Batman be? They have been making his way to paranoid.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> So where should Batman be? They have been making his way to paranoid.


Hairy chested love God who has his shit more or less figured out.

I am 100% ok with a full continuity reboot to make this happen and cut ties with post-Crisis Batman entirely.

----------


## Kaitou D. Kid

Morrison's Batman was a nice return to a mentally stable Batman that is actually a nice guy.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Morrison's Batman was a nice return to a mentally stable Batman that is actually a nice guy.


This is why he, Dini and (occasionally) Simone are the only good post-Crisis Bat writers

----------


## Gaius

> So where should Batman be? They have been making his way to paranoid.


I'd get rid of the interpretation of "Batman is the real one, Bruce is the mask" and probably have him written as a mix of Adam West and the Bronze Age. Someone who mostly rose above the murder of his parents.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> *I'd get rid of the interpretation of "Batman is the real one, Bruce is the mask"* and probably have him written as a mix of Adam West and the Bronze Age. Someone who mostly rose above the murder of his parents.


Oh yeah totally. Put that crap to bed.

Ditto "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I do" though that doesn't creep up as often

----------


## Alan2099

> I'd get rid of the interpretation of "Batman is the real one, Bruce is the mask" and probably have him written as a mix of Adam West and the Bronze Age. Someone who mostly rose above the murder of his parents.


Batman is the real thing, definitely needs to go.  It basically defines him as not being able to actually be a real person with a real personality.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I often wonder, how much Bruce and Batman are the same person? We keep hearing how Batman is the real version. However, we know that Bruce is really loving and care

----------


## Gaius

> Oh yeah totally. Put that crap to bed.
> 
> Ditto "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I do" though that doesn't creep up as often





> Batman is the real thing, definitely needs to go.  It basically defines him as not being able to actually be a real person with a real personality.


Yeah, all the interpretation has done in the long-term is to is amplify Bruce's worst traits and takes away from his stated relatability

----------


## Will Evans

Dick needs his own “Talia” type character.

Even both Ollie and Roy had Shado and Cheshire.

----------


## Jackalope89

> So where should Batman be? They have been making his way to paranoid.


He's well past paranoid at this point. 

Make him a functional member of society (not so much "high society", but a regular human being), not always such a dick (not Grayson), but a good guy who's thing is about scaring bad guys and trying to be a good father figure, he'd be a lot better than where he's been the last several years.

----------


## qwazer07

> Dick needs his own “Talia” type character.
> 
> Even both Ollie and Roy had Shado and Cheshire.


No thank you. I'd rather he continue dating heroes or even anti-heroes. He already dated people who kill. He doesn't need the villain type.

----------


## Will Evans

> No thank you. I'd rather he continue dating heroes or even anti-heroes. He already dated people who kill. He doesn't need the villain type.


He needs a baby momma

----------


## qwazer07

> He needs a baby momma


Oh no. That baby won't survive a year. Don't put that evil on us. We are just getting out of Ric.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Talia and Cheshire have some unfortunate stereotypes baked into their DNA.

Kinda late to do anything about it at this point, and I actually like them both as villains, but I don't think any more of that character type should be added to the mythos

----------


## Will Evans

> Talia and Cheshire have some unfortunate stereotypes baked into their DNA.
> 
> Kinda late to do anything about it at this point, and I actually like them both as villains, but I don't think any more of that character type should be added to the mythos


I think the worse is when they tried to make Cassandra Cain that way for Tim.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think the worse is when they tried to make Cassandra Cain that way for Tim.


Yeah.

We have a few characters who are pretty much cemented as Dragon Ladies at this point and this is an issue with their inception (Talia, Cheshire, maybe Shiva too), so it's a little late to do anything about it now as far as the main canon goes. And they can still be great/interesting characters in that context. But let's not add anymore, and luckily that Cass thing didn't stick.

----------


## Pohzee

Jason's Talia should be... Talia! hahaha (Who thought that was a good idea?)

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea Taila raped Bruce. So Dick doesn't need a Taila. However, maybe if he dates again. He could have his girlfriend be his Catwoman? Or heck maybe she can be a new supporting cast

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yea Taila raped Bruce. So Dick doesn't need a Taila. However, maybe if he dates again. *He could have his girlfriend be his Catwoman?* Or heck maybe she can be a new supporting cast


Haha!

No.

----------


## phantom1592

> I often wonder, how much Bruce and Batman are the same person? We keep hearing how Batman is the real version. However, we know that Bruce is really loving and care


I'm an absolute firm believer that Batman AND Bruce are both masks. The growly angry guy and the playboy are both fakes. Masks to get what he wants from the people they are talking to at that time.  The REAL Bruce Wayne is the one raising and training the lonely orphans and having dinner with.  Adam West nailed that aspect. Same with Michael Keaton. Neither millionaire airhead or dark vigilante.. but the man going over police files in front of his cave computer wearing his turtleneck and figuring out antidotes. THAT was the real person. everything else was just showmanship.

Same with Superman.  The clark that people know in metropolis isn't 'real' either. He's an act. So is Superman. It's the clark who's hanging out with his parents or by himself that is the 'real' guy.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Shawn Tsang was kind of a Catwoman, albeit a reformed one who would work best as a recurring ex-girlfriend.

I liked her enough to want to see her more, she doesn't even have to live in Bludhaven. She's the only good thing in it, just have her set up shop in Gotham

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Overall I really like Morrison's run, but I hate what he did to Talia.  I think his biggest weakness as a writer is his tendency to take morally grey characters and just make them outright evil.  It was worse for Talia than it was for Magneto because 1. Talia had been portrayed as an outright good guy beforehand while Magneto had reverted to villainy years before Morrison got to him, and 2. because Marvel retconned the story keep Magneto in the grey zone as soon as Morrison left while Talia being evil is the one thing DC hasn't retconned about Batman.

----------


## Godlike13

There was Tarantula.

----------


## marhawkman

I like Nightwing + Starfire.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Overall I really like Morrison's run, but I hate what he did to Talia.  I think his biggest weakness as a writer is his tendency to take morally grey characters and just make them outright evil.  It was worse for Talia than it was for Magneto because 1. Talia had been portrayed as an outright good guy beforehand while Magneto had reverted to villainy years before Morrison got to him, and 2. because Marvel retconned the story keep Magneto in the grey zone as soon as Morrison left while Talia being evil is the one thing DC hasn't retconned about Batman.


I think it's more that he doesn't let characters off the hook and doesn't agree with going the "woobie" route for people who do terrible things. Magneto had reverted to villainy but he also was taking into account his Silver Age behavior, even Claremont's original tweaking of Magneto's character is very jarring compared to what came before and doesn't entirely mesh with it. He just had 17 years to build on it. Morrison included the fact that he was being manipulated by Sublime, so Marvel didn't have to do as over the top of a retcon as they did. With Talia, I found her more interesting than she ever was before. The only "too far" bit was her raping Bruce, but Morrison himself admitted he mis-remembered certain details so he later retconned his retcon in the New 52 and it's more ambiguous. Bruce is 100% dtf until Talia starts talking about a kid and then he goes all "omg you put something in my drink." Because Bruce is kind of a manchild. Otherwise Talia is pretty consistent with someone who was raised by Ra's al Ghul and some of her previous actions. She was already with the Secret Society before Morrison got hold of her.

He also did wrong by Jason apparently, though I don't think it's terribly inconsistent with some of Jason's more recent appearances at that time. It doesn't mesh with who he is now though. But I do appreciate the attempt to deconstruct the whole "sexy bad boy" think, with making him a redhead with a receding hairline and zits from wearing a helmet lol.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I think it's more that he doesn't let characters off the hook and doesn't agree with going the "woobie" route for people who do terrible things. Magneto had reverted to villainy but he also was taking into account his Silver Age behavior, even Claremont's original tweaking of Magneto's character is very jarring compared to what came before and doesn't entirely mesh with it. He just had 17 years to build on it. Morrison included the fact that he was being manipulated by Sublime, so Marvel didn't have to do as over the top of a retcon as they did. With Talia, I found her more interesting than she ever was before. The only "too far" bit was her raping Bruce, but Morrison himself admitted he mis-remembered certain details so he later retconned his retcon in the New 52 and it's more ambiguous. Bruce is 100% dtf until Talia starts talking about a kid and then he goes all "omg you put something in my drink." Because Bruce is kind of a manchild. Otherwise Talia is pretty consistent with someone who was raised by Ra's al Ghul and some of her previous actions. She was already with the Secret Society before Morrison got hold of her.
> 
> He also did wrong by Jason apparently, though I don't think it's terribly inconsistent with some of Jason's more recent appearances at that time. It doesn't mesh with who he is now though. But I do appreciate the attempt to deconstruct the whole "sexy bad boy" think, with making him a redhead with a receding hairline and zits from wearing a helmet lol.


Yeah, they needed the over the top retcon with Magneto. Grant dumped on the character pretty hard and stripped him of any redeeming qualities and made him into a modern Silver Age villain, same as he did with Talia.

'Written like that in the Silver Age' is a poor excuse really, as story quality standards then, are not what they are now.

And hell, there's less justification to do that with Talia, as when push came to shove, she sided with Batman over her evil father. Yet he wrote her as a rapist, willing to kill her own son?

Yeah...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah, they needed the over the top retcon with Magneto. Grant dumped on the character pretty hard and stripped him of any redeeming qualities and made him into a modern Silver Age villain, same as he did with Talia.
> 
> 'Written like that in the Silver Age' is a poor excuse really, as story quality standards then, are not what they are now.
> 
> And hell, there's less justification to do that with Talia, as when push came to shove, she sided with Batman over her evil father. Yet he wrote her as a rapist, willing to kill her own son?
> 
> Yeah...


No they didn't need the retcon. They could have just resurrected him and purged him of Sublime's influence. It was in the text and apparently nobody paid attention. What they did instead was needlessly convoluted and stupid. They bring characters back from the dead all the time I don't know why this was so difficult.

Morrison tends to take characters entire history into account. Whether people like it or not, Silver Age Magneto happened and he'd been sliding off and on into villainy again all throughout the 90s. The original transition to more complex Magneto with a flesh out backstory wasn't even too smooth, people just accept it because Claremont had 17 years to build on it, which was subsequently undone by other writers anyway.

Talia flip flops. She sides with Batman, then goes back to daddy. Whose goal is to wipe out most of the planet's population. Rinse, later, repeat. Rucka already drove her evil, she'd been with the Secret Society of super villains and casually manipulated a vulnerable teenage metahuman for her own ends (Black Alice, which had Black Canary vow to send her to hell for and say Batman was an idiot for falling for her act) and I believe she once even unnerved Bane by casually ordering her minions to kill themselves to lighten the load on an escape vehicle. Because their lives meant nothing to her. Morrison altered his story so that her seduction of Bruce was more ambiguous, and she wasn't thrilled with Damian's death. She put the hit out on him to force Batman to not bring him out as Robin, the kid disobeyed and she angrily killed the Heretic after. 

She also straight up out maneuvered Bruce and is more interesting as a villain than her father. Dropping the "Beloved" crap was worth it, IMO.

----------


## Zaresh

> Haha!
> 
> No.


Yeah. Let's be less Batman-ish here.

The track record about criminal females for Jason is about his mother figures, which Talia definitely is now, thank goodness.

His very short love interest record is a mixed tape of strong females with an attitude  or strong females who like fun. They tend to be fiery.




> I like Nightwing + Starfire.


Excellent taste  :Big Grin: .

----------


## dietrich

> Overall I really like Morrison's run, but I hate what he did to Talia.  I think his biggest weakness as a writer is his tendency to take morally grey characters and just make them outright evil.  It was worse for Talia than it was for Magneto because 1. Talia had been portrayed as an outright good guy beforehand while Magneto had reverted to villainy years before Morrison got to him, and 2. because Marvel retconned the story keep Magneto in the grey zone as soon as Morrison left while Talia being evil is the one thing DC hasn't retconned about Batman.


Dc did retcon talia being evil. 3 writers attempted to but some really like her being bad.

Morrison retconned the Rape post crisis
Tomasi retconned the Rape in the new 52
Gleason took away tne evil lady who killed her son with Black pearl in RsoB giving an explanation for Batman INC

Priest and Bendis just won't let is go

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> No they didn't need the retcon. They could have just resurrected him and purged him of Sublime's influence. It was in the text and apparently nobody paid attention. What they did instead was needlessly convoluted and stupid. They bring characters back from the dead all the time I don't know why this was so difficult.
> 
> Morrison tends to take characters entire history into account. Whether people like it or not, Silver Age Magneto happened and he'd been sliding off and on into villainy again all throughout the 90s. The original transition to more complex Magneto with a flesh out backstory wasn't even too smooth, people just accept it because Claremont had 17 years to build on it, which was subsequently undone by other writers anyway.
> 
> Talia flip flops. She sides with Batman, then goes back to daddy. Whose goal is to wipe out most of the planet's population. Rinse, later, repeat. Rucka already drove her evil, she'd been with the Secret Society of super villains and casually manipulated a vulnerable teenage metahuman for her own ends (Black Alice, which had Black Canary vow to send her to hell for and say Batman was an idiot for falling for her act) and I believe she once even unnerved Bane by casually ordering her minions to kill themselves to lighten the load on an escape vehicle. Because their lives meant nothing to her. Morrison altered his story so that her seduction of Bruce was more ambiguous, and she wasn't thrilled with Damian's death. She put the hit out on him to force Batman to not bring him out as Robin, the kid disobeyed and she angrily killed the Heretic after. 
> 
> She also straight up out maneuvered Bruce and is more interesting as a villain than her father. Dropping the "Beloved" crap was worth it, IMO.


Yes, Talia flip flops. She shifts between the man she loves, and the father who raised her.

How is making her evil not a violation of that?

Grant Morrison is like a lot of writers, who refuse to give depth to their villains. Mark Wade, Jason Aaron are others that come to mind. The villain is there to be stopped, not act as a foil.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Dc did retcon talia being evil. 3 writers attempted to but some really like her being bad.
> 
> Morrison retconned the Rape post crisis
> Tomasi retconned the Rape in the new 52
> Gleason took away tne evil lady who killed her son with Black pearl in RsoB giving an explanation for Batman INC
> 
> Priest and Bendis just won't let is go


Who wrote Silencer? Talia was super evil in that.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yes, Talia flip flops. She shifts between the man she loves, and the father who raised her.
> 
> How is making her evil not a violation of that?
> 
> Grant Morrison is like a lot of writers, who refuse to give depth to their villains. Mark Wade, Jason Aaron are others that come to mind. The villain is there to be stopped, not act as a foil.


Loyalty to an *evil* father who indoctrinated her. If she was consistently mentally stable after being raised by someone like that, choosing between him and Batman wouldn't be that difficult. Yet here we are.
To say nothing of her own sporadic misdeeds over the years before Morrison got to her. We also have the DCAU where their twisted relationship ended up in her sacrificing herself for the creepy old man who just didn't want to die. She was painted as a character who was naturally screwed up because look at the nutcase that raised her. She wasn't lucky to have someone bail her out the way Dick did for Damian. Batman Incorporated New 52 #2 actually gives her a lot of nuance, even if the end result isn't ultimately a good/stable person. But she's a cooler villain than her father ever was, IMO. 

Sometimes giving depth to villains results in their sob stories distracting from their misdeeds or giving them easy redemption that doesn't pay much care to their victims. Magneto being let off the hook way too easily for some of the crap he pulled isn't a new criticism of his character. It existed before and after Morrison wrote him. A villain being there to be stopped and standing for an evil to be vanquished isn't a bad story telling technique in itself, especially as DC and Marvel can get lazy with tugging at our heart strings and "redeeming" villains.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Loyalty to an *evil* father who indoctrinated her. If she was consistently mentally stable after being raised by someone like that, choosing between him and Batman wouldn't be that difficult. Yet here we are.
> To say nothing of her own sporadic misdeeds over the years before Morrison got to her. We also have the DCAU where their twisted relationship ended up in her sacrificing herself for the creepy old man who just didn't want to die. She was painted as a character who was naturally screwed up because look at the nutcase that raised her. She wasn't lucky to have someone bail her out the way Dick did for Damian. Batman Incorporated New 52 #2 actually gives her a lot of nuance, even if the end result isn't ultimately a good/stable person. But she's a cooler villain than her father ever was, IMO. 
> 
> Sometimes giving depth to villains results in their sob stories distracting from their misdeeds or giving them easy redemption that doesn't pay much care to their victims. Magneto being let off the hook way too easily for some of the crap he pulled isn't a new criticism of his character. It existed before and after Morrison wrote him. A villain being there to be stopped and standing for an evil to be vanquished isn't a bad story telling technique in itself, especially as DC and Marvel can get lazy with tugging at our heart strings and "redeeming" villains.


Giving a villain depth, is preferable to having them twirl their mustache.

I'm reminded of the quote that was given when Megatron joined the Lost Light as an Autobot. 

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer. Nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

Grant's villains are 2-D cardboard cut outs, that don't help the story at all. And that was his Talia

----------


## Agent Z

If you're going to make Talia such a monster, you've really got no excuse to be squeamish about Batman putting her and others like her, six feet under where she belongs.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Giving a villain depth, is preferable to having them twirl their mustache.
> 
> I'm reminded of the quote that was given when Megatron joined the Lost Light as an Autobot. 
> 
> "Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer. Nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
> 
> Grant's villains are 2-D cardboard cut outs, that don't help the story at all. And that was his Talia


How much depth they really have is a matter of opinion, and YMMV on if the navel gazing is worth it. 




> It's weird to see people claim Talia makes more sense as an unrepentantly evil and irredeemable monster while frequently complaining about how modern Batman stories (especially ones about the Joker) are too unrelenting in their cruelty. Especially when you have stuff like her being retconned into a rapist which only happened because Morrison got things mixed up.
> 
> For that matter, if you're going to make Talia such a monster, you've really got no excuse to be squeamish about Batman putting her and others like her, six feet under where she belongs.


The rape was retconned back out in the New 52 because of catching that mistake (the drinks weren't touched). And I'm ok with the Joker being a monster because he is, it's more that he's overused and the over the top slasher aspect is *boring*. Talia hadn't reached that level of lazy and obnoxious yet. 

Talia was killed at the end of the story, albeit by Kathy Kane. In that story at least, she got her just punishment that the Joker usually avoids. But of course she came back, and it's not like that should come as a surprise to anyone considering death is pretty much a vacation for these characters. Batman suddenly killing these villains wouldn't result in the villainous population going down, they'd just come back.

----------


## Agent Z

> Talia hadn't reached that level of lazy and obnoxious yet.


Let's agree to disagree on that.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> How much depth they really have is a matter of opinion, and YMMV on if the navel gazing is worth it..


It's worth it every damn time.

Most comic book stories are like knock knock jokes. You know the general outline, you know the pattern. Villain acts, hero gets involved, stops villain, rinse, repeat.

Giving the villain depth, allowing the writer to see the villain as a character and not just a machine, allows one to better suspend disbelief. To pretend that we don't know how the story will end and better absorb us into it. Seeing a person, instead of a 2-D drawing.

Frankly, Grant often gets so absorbed in his metaphor, call backs and obscure references, that half the time he seems to forget that he's supposed to give us a reason to care or give a damn. That's the main flaw with super evil Talia.

----------


## phantom1592

> Loyalty to an *evil* father who indoctrinated her. If she was consistently mentally stable after being raised by someone like that, choosing between him and Batman wouldn't be that difficult. Yet here we are.
> To say nothing of her own sporadic misdeeds over the years before Morrison got to her. We also have the DCAU where their twisted relationship ended up in her sacrificing herself for the creepy old man who just didn't want to die. She was painted as a character who was naturally screwed up because look at the nutcase that raised her. She wasn't lucky to have someone bail her out the way Dick did for Damian. Batman Incorporated New 52 #2 actually gives her a lot of nuance, even if the end result isn't ultimately a good/stable person. But she's a cooler villain than her father ever was, IMO. 
> 
> Sometimes giving depth to villains results in their sob stories distracting from their misdeeds or giving them easy redemption that doesn't pay much care to their victims. Magneto being let off the hook way too easily for some of the crap he pulled isn't a new criticism of his character. It existed before and after Morrison wrote him. A villain being there to be stopped and standing for an evil to be vanquished isn't a bad story telling technique in itself, especially as DC and Marvel can get lazy with tugging at our heart strings and "redeeming" villains.


Yeah, i just can't get behind the whole 'neutral' concept. If sometimes you do good and save lives... awesome. That's good. But if the other half the time you are siding with a genocidal terrorist.... and running extreme criminal orginaztions known for assassinations.... yeah, you're pretty evil. Evil with a soft spot for the hero maybe... but she's been involved in some REALLY bad stuff and she's 'okay' with it or looks the other way out of loyalty to her dad??? Noooo that's still evil. I've never been a fan of this character. Not really a fan of the whole femme fatale trope to begin with, but at least with Catwoman they try to keep her a criminal... but not really EVIL... Steal some stuff, but not a killer...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It's worth it every damn time.
> 
> Most comic book stories are like knock knock jokes. You know the general outline, you know the pattern. Villain acts, hero gets involved, stops villain, rinse, repeat.
> 
> Giving the villain depth, allowing the writer to see the villain as a character and not just a machine, allows one to better suspend disbelief. To pretend that we don't know how the story will end and better absorb us into it. Seeing a person, instead of a 2-D drawing.
> 
> Frankly, Grant often gets so absorbed in his metaphor, call backs and obscure references, that half the time he seems to forget that he's supposed to give us a reason to care or give a damn. That's the main flaw with super evil Talia.


There is difference between giving a villain depth and letting them off the hook for their crimes. A villain can be very entertaining and complex and still be a piece of crap that shouldn't have excuses made for them. Often times we have villains becoming heroes and heroes becoming villains, and heroes fighting each other non stop, rinse, repeat. That's pretty tedious and boring and played out when done wrong as well. 

I don't have an issue caring about most of Morrison's stories, nor do I see a lack of depth in his Talia in her own context even ignoring other runs. Just because she's not a good person doesn't mean she isn't complex. Plus it was new and at least she picked a direction, do we really want to keep reading about her being torn between her father and Batman for the billionth time?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> There is difference between giving a villain depth and letting them off the hook for their crimes. A villain can be very entertaining and complex and still be a piece of crap that shouldn't have excuses made for them. Often times we have villains becoming heroes and heroes becoming villains, and heroes fighting each other non stop, rinse, repeat. That's pretty tedious and boring and played out when done wrong as well. 
> 
> I don't have an issue caring about most of Morrison's stories, nor do I see a lack of depth in his Talia in her own context even ignoring other runs. Just because she's not a good person doesn't mean she isn't complex. Plus it was new and at least she picked a direction, do we really want to keep reading about her being torn between her father and Batman for the billionth time?


I've never quite understood how "The villain is an actual person with understandable motivations" and "Letting them off the hook" are the same thing.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I've never quite understood how "The villain is an actual person with understandable motivations" and "Letting them off the hook" are the same thing.


Because one typically leads to another in the hands of poor writers. it's why the trope Draco in Leather Pants is a thing. 

Talia is an actual person with motivations, they just aren't pleasant ones because her upbringing was very twisted. For me, a lot of the criticisms of her lacking depth read as "I don't like her motivations and what she is doing" not that she doesn't have them. I've also seen her criticized as being a "shrieking harpy" in that run, when she never once loses her cool and does any shrieking. Like Bruce loses his cool more than she does. So do the male villains, including her father.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Because one typically leads to another in the hands of poor writers. it's why the trope Draco in Leather Pants is a thing. 
> 
> Talia is an actual person with motivations, they just aren't pleasant ones because her upbringing was very twisted. For me, a lot of the criticisms of her lacking depth read as "I don't like her motivations and what she is doing" not that she doesn't have them. I've also seen her criticized as being a "shrieking harpy" in that run, when she never once loses her cool and does any shrieking. Like Bruce loses his cool more than she does. So do the male villains, including her father.


Under Grant, she's a person with cliche motivations that would fit better in the Silver Age where villains steepled their hands and cackled about their evil plans.

Frankly, any Draco is preferable to that. And given the stuff Grant teed up, 'later writers may abuse it' is a poor excuse

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Under Grant, she's a person with cliche motivations that would fit better in the Silver Age where villains steepled their hands and cackled about their evil plans.
> 
> Frankly, any Draco is preferable to that. And given the stuff Grant teed up, 'later writers may abuse it' is a poor excuse


"Woman struggling with loyalty between two men" isn't already a cliche? Could have fooled me.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> "Woman struggling with loyalty between two men" isn't already a cliche? Could have fooled me.


Darkening her skin and making her a super evil terrorist? That's a little more than cliche, thanks.

And I don't recall dictating in what direction her depth had to go, just that she actually have some

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Darkening her skin and making her a super evil terrorist? That's a little more than cliche, thanks.
> 
> And I don't recall dictating in what direction her depth had to go, just that she actually have some


She's always been a terrorist. They just decided to get rid of the played out status quo for her and pick a direction. 

She also has depth, people just tend to ignore it. And I think you're overselling how much depth most DC's supervillains typically have on a regular basis.

----------


## Godlike13

Villains are important and serve an important narrative function. It’s not always bad to be the bad guy.

----------


## Restingvoice

They're running out of female villains, but Talia is still a bad decision because of the combination of her race, character history, and design. She's the most well known Arabic woman in DC Comics, so the female Arabic fans I know don't take kindly to this. It didn't escape their notice that the other female villains that get redemption, Harley, Ivy, and Selina, are all white.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> They're running out of female villains, but Talia is still a bad decision because of the combination of her race, character history, and design. She's the most well known Arabic woman in DC Comics, so the female Arabic fans I know don't take kindly to this. It didn't escape their notice that the other female villains that get redemption, Harley, Ivy, and Selina, are all white.


I'd rather have her stay a villain. Harley and Ivy aren't anti-heroes and have also stayed villains in my head canon. Selina is morally gray because she steals from the right people, doesn't kill and doesn't enjoy inflicting pain.

----------


## Fergus

> I'd rather have her stay a villain. Harley and Ivy aren't anti-heroes and have also stayed villains in my head canon. Selina is morally gray because she steals from the right people, doesn't kill and doesn't enjoy inflicting pain.


Selina steals from everyone. Enough of that head canon that she steals from the right people.

----------


## Agent Z

Selina doesn't kill? Tell that to Black Mask and any of the people she's killed when she was a mob boss during the New 52.

----------


## Godlike13

Selina killing Black Mask wasn’t even morally grey given the story context. It was pretty much survival at that point.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> I'd rather have her stay a villain. Harley and Ivy aren't anti-heroes and have also stayed villains in my head canon. […]


How can you think that a woman, who cheerfully put a person in the belly of a carnivorous plant to be digested, can be a villain?  :Mad:   :Wink: 




> Selina killing Black Mask wasn’t even morally grey given the story context. It was survival.


You are right: when we talk about the actions of a certain character, we should keep in our mind the contest of the story, because there is an huge among a murderer, a manslaughter and an extreme act of self defense.

----------


## Tzigone

> They're running out of female villains, but Talia is still a bad decision because of the combination of her race, character history, and design. She's the most well known Arabic woman in DC Comics, so the female Arabic fans I know don't take kindly to this. It didn't escape their notice that the other female villains that get redemption, Harley, Ivy, and Selina, are all white.


Welll, I don't want Harley or Ivy to get redemption any more than I want Talia to.  Selina was built as "not that bad" and a non-killer and so forth. Obviously, they've tried to darken her up and make her worse at times (talking about the security guards tossed out the window in early post-COIE, not Black Mask), but I've never liked that.  I guess there was some in the 60s, too?  Haven't read much of that era, but maybe taking aspects on the tv version (she was much more villainous).  Most characters have been written a lot of different, and often conflicting, ways.  For me, Selina was a thief, not a killer.  And then was redeemed. And should have fricking stayed that way instead of bouncing back and forth.  

Ivy I admittedly take a bit from the B:TAS version, as she stared as a bog-standard ego-driven villain with no plant/environmental cares.  But I always think of her as murderous and evil and (as per the show) also willing to exploit/destroy the plants as her tools in her efforts.  Acceptable sacrifices, I guess.

Harley seemed like she could get her life (not license) back in B:TAS, at least at first, but that ship has long since sailed in the comics to me (where her origin has a bit of a different flavor, to say the least), and even in the cartoon, she was enthusiastic in (attempted) murder at times.  Very Manson girl, like someone said previously.  She was absolutely abused, of course, but she wasn't trapped in the start.

For me, Talia was evil in the 1970s.  The willingness to go along with Robin's kidnapping, framing an innocent man for murder, Batman being forcibly married to her, and her amnesia-drugging that guy - none of those were late additions.  She also saved Batman and a kid.  I tend to think of her with a "those she likes" and "those she doesn't like" and with very different treatment of the groups.  She did have a redemption/freedom story, then moved on. Probably wouldn't have minded that as much if they hadn't brought her back.  And she was definitely a terrorist long before Morrison.

----------


## Restingvoice

> For me, Talia was evil in the 1970s.  The willingness to go along with Robin's kidnapping, framing an innocent man for murder, Batman being forcibly married to her, and her amnesia-drugging that guy - none of those were late additions.  She also saved Batman and a kid.  I tend to think of her with a "those she likes" and "those she doesn't like" and with very different treatment of the groups.  She did have a redemption/freedom story, then moved on. Probably wouldn't have minded that as much if they hadn't brought her back.  And she was definitely a terrorist long before Morrison.


All that are true and big reasons why I largely prefer Selina to her for Bruce

I don't mind any of them getting redemption as long as it makes sense and not just driven by marketing and sales. Harley and Ivy are already going there but they went way too fast, at least from where I'm sitting.  

Bleeding Cool rumored that DC Comics actually wanted Ivy to return as a villain after her resurrection in Heroes in Crisis but it was Tom King who decided she remains good. On the other hand, her good or likable side also getting support from DC animations. 

She's getting popular nowadays thanks to her Nature vs Capitalism stance that coincides with Climate Change debate, and her relationship with Harley, so half of DC jumps on that opportunity.

----------


## godisawesome

> Because one typically leads to another in the hands of poor writers. it's why the trope Draco in Leather Pants is a thing. 
> 
> Talia is an actual person with motivations, they just aren't pleasant ones because her upbringing was very twisted. For me, a lot of the criticisms of her lacking depth read as "I don't like her motivations and what she is doing" not that she doesn't have them. I've also seen her criticized as being a "shrieking harpy" in that run, when she never once loses her cool and does any shrieking. Like Bruce loses his cool more than she does. So do the male villains, including her father.


Youre right about how there is a risk in making a villain sympathetic with it defusing them as a villain... but at the same time, properly managing that balance is the key to the _best_ villains, so its a matter of execution and presentation... usually defined by how in-tune the creator is with the audience when they try to make that work, and how focused they are on their end goal with the villain. For instance, Darth Vader and Kylo Ren are almost literally the same character... yet because Lucas had better focus and a better understanding of the audience, Anakin is much more sympathetic as a person, while Vader is far more effective and focused as a villain. In Batman, nailing that balance can make Mr. Freeze great, Two-Face great, and even Bane to some extent... but all three, like Talia, can suffer from too sympathetic of a view or too blandly villainous a portrayal.

I feel the problem with Talia as written by Morrison isnt so much the degree of her evil as much as her displaying of her evil, in the same way where I dont much care for some of Morrisons other villains. 

There are some bad guys who can be operatically over-the-top in their evil, and its totally okay for them to either verge on or just straight _revel_ in being gleefully evil. Joker? Yup. Riddler? Yup. The Big Bad Harv part of Two-Face? Yup.

But villains that are supposed to serve as unnervingly understandable villains or seductive attractive villains dont do well when portrayed in such ostentatiously evil way. Talias potential is as someone the audience could see Bruce being drawn towards, suffering heartbreak from, and Damian having extremely complicated feelings towards. Having her be a archetypal cackling villainess doesnt undo her _entire_ functionality for the story... but it does _limit_ her functionality and total impact.

You want to be able to creep the audience out by having them understand *why* Batman would sleep with Talia beyond the fact shes hot, why he still believes Harvey Dent is worth saving when he falls off a roof, and why he sometimes approaches Bane with a strange kind of understanding. When their just villainous divas, they kind of become interchangeable.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Youre right about how there is a risk in making a villain sympathetic with it defusing them as a villain... but at the same time, properly managing that balance is the key to the _best_ villains, so its a matter of execution and presentation... usually defined by how in-tune the creator is with the audience when they try to make that work, and how focused they are on their end goal with the villain. For instance, Darth Vader and Kylo Ren are almost literally the same character... yet because Lucas had better focus and a better understanding of the audience, Anakin is much more sympathetic as a person, while Vader is far more effective and focused as a villain. In Batman, nailing that balance can make Mr. Freeze great, Two-Face great, and even Bane to some extent... but all three, like Talia, can suffer from too sympathetic of a view or too blandly villainous a portrayal.
> 
> I feel the problem with Talia as written by Morrison isnt so much the degree of her evil as much as her displaying of her evil, in the same way where I dont much care for some of Morrisons other villains. 
> 
> There are some bad guys who can be operatically over-the-top in their evil, and its totally okay for them to either verge on or just straight _revel_ in being gleefully evil. Joker? Yup. Riddler? Yup. The Big Bad Harv part of Two-Face? Yup.
> 
> But villains that are supposed to serve as unnervingly understandable villains or seductive attractive villains dont do well when portrayed in such ostentatiously evil way. Talias potential is as someone the audience could see Bruce being drawn towards, suffering heartbreak from, and Damian having extremely complicated feelings towards. *Having her be a archetypal cackling villainess doesnt undo her entire functionality for the story*... but it does _limit_ her functionality and total impact.
> 
> You want to be able to creep the audience out by having them understand *why* Batman would sleep with Talia beyond the fact shes hot, why he still believes Harvey Dent is worth saving when he falls off a roof, and why he sometimes approaches Bane with a strange kind of understanding. When their just villainous divas, they kind of become interchangeable.


Morrison tends to write a lot of his villains as having complexity in the archetypes or evil they symbolically represent rather than having them be too humanized. This tends to work better with his own creations. I used to intensely dislike Dr. Hurt and Professor Pyg because I thought villains had to be represented as more than just cackling evils, but now I really like them. It also works well for someone like the Joker, more so in the "Batman & Robin" segments, though interestingly I think Grant writes a layered and human Lex Luthor out of all the big name DC villains he's tackled.

With Talia though, I have to focus on what I bolded. Along with the "shrieking harpy" stuff we see ascribed to Morrison's Talia, one-note chacking supervillain Talia seems like a knee jerk reaction than something that is actually there. She does some typical supervillain gloating, but not much OTT cackling and she loses her cool less than Batman, the Joker or Dr. Hurt in the run. Hell, she doesn't even express more than mild frustration when her plan is thwarted. I can see why Damian has complicated feelings for her, she alternates between being controlling and cold and being doting and promising that he's entitled to the world (the same way her father did to her). She has complicated feelings towards him, she casts him out when he rebels and says she will replace him, then stumbles over and sheds a tear when the Heretic kills him before even hearing an order. She's a mess of contradictions but that's a result of being raised by friggin Ra's al Ghul. You can't swap her out with another villain and get the same story.

I'm not opposed to Bruce's responses to her, but I've never thought their romance was that interesting or believable anyway. I think she loved the idea of him and the freedom he represents/being entitled and believing she deserves a great man for her lover than the man himself. Bruce has a weakness for reforming the sexy bad girls. This is a woman who helped frame Batman for murder so that she and her father could turn Gotham against him and make him want to join up with them. She tells him he should be "honored" that Ra's is manipulating his life like this. I don't have much issue with the "reality ensues" aspect of this woman not being a stable romantic partner or mother.




> Selina steals from everyone. Enough of that head canon that she steals from the right people.


Broadly speaking with her post-COIE origin, she doesn't really "punch downward" and steal from those less fortunate than her. 

There are of course probably inconsistencies.

----------


## Alan2099

There are far too many massacres and murders in Batman comics and not nearly enough thefts and bank robberies.

I really think Joker being obsessed with Batman and trying to prove is point to others takes away from the character.  Joker, I think works best when he's only obsessed with himself and if he's worried about Batman, it's only because Batman is trying to stop his fun or take his spotlight.  He shouldn't CARE if you see his point of view or not, nor should he go out of the way to explain it.  HE Knows what he's doing is funny and that's enough.  

Penguin works better as a crooks that uses trick umbrellas than any kind of "legitimate" business man that mostly just exists so Batman can crash his club, and beat everyone up for information.  

In Riddler's first appearance, he chose to start leaving riddles because he was TOO good at crime.  Him being a helples schmuck that can't help but leave Riddles makes for a horrible character.  The guy should be good and the only reason he should leave his clues is because he wants to rub it into people's faces that they can't stop him even if he gives them clues how to do so.  

Ra's Al Ghul never interested me.  

Batman the animated series had a better Mad Hatter than anything the comics has ever done and with all the changes inspired by the cartoon, I have no idea why they never tried to copy that version of the character.

----------


## Tzigone

> There are far too many massacres and murders in Batman comics and not nearly enough thefts and bank robberies.


I agree. I started a thread previously on what kind of stakes it takes to interest an audience, but it didn't really go anywhere.




> I really think Joker being obsessed with Batman and trying to prove is point to others takes away from the character. Joker, I think works best when he's only obsessed with himself and if he's worried about Batman, it's only because Batman is trying to stop his fun or take his spotlight. He shouldn't CARE if you see his point of view or not, nor should he go out of the way to explain it. HE Knows what he's doing is funny and that's enough.


I kinda like the early Joker, where funny really wasn't a huge thing (ego was definitely present, though).  And he was absolutely a murderer, but not so over-the-top.

----------


## Agent Z

Talia's depiction by Morrison and recent writers in general shows just how pathetic female villains in superhero comics are, especially the ones in the Batman books. They're either femme fatales, women scorned, misandrists, female lackies or some combination of any of the aforementioned four. And while I understand wanting more female villains, it really isn't worth it if they're still stuck in outdated archetypes that frankly only serve to reinforce the belief that superhero comics are stuck in the past. At least with female heroes, there's more diversity.

----------


## AmiMizuno

One of the things I been wondering is the sharing in a since with Babs, Dick, and Bruce. This is why I kind of wonder how much all in the family should there be.

----------


## Tzigone

> Talia's depiction by Morrison and recent writers in general shows just how pathetic female villains in superhero comics are, especially the ones in the Batman books. They're either femme fatales, women scorned, misandrists, female lackies or some combination of any of the aforementioned four


I don't get the "recent writers" bit - Talia was a femme fatale and even somewhat of a lackey of her father (that's really overstating it, but she was subordinate to him) from day one.

----------


## godisawesome

Does this count as controversial?

Selina Kyle should have had the Falcone parentage confirmed in Batman Eternal instead of having the Calabrese family created as an alternative. The Calabreses didn’t really add anything, and the Falcones would have offered more interesting and perhaps more long lasting opportunities, simply each see they were more established and were more clearly placed as Batman’s early enemies.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean with Damian at first being an elsewhere character. Should Kelly be canon?

----------


## dietrich

> I mean with Damian at first being an elsewhere character. Should Kelly be canon?


Miller refuses to let her be used in the main comics which was why Tomasi had to abandon her intro

----------


## dietrich

> There is difference between giving a villain depth and letting them off the hook for their crimes. A villain can be very entertaining and complex and still be a piece of crap that shouldn't have excuses made for them. Often times we have villains becoming heroes and heroes becoming villains, and heroes fighting each other non stop, rinse, repeat. That's pretty tedious and boring and played out when done wrong as well. 
> 
> I don't have an issue caring about most of Morrison's stories, nor do I see a lack of depth in his Talia in her own context even ignoring other runs. Just because she's not a good person doesn't mean she isn't complex. Plus it was new and at least she picked a direction, *do we really want to keep reading about her being torn between her father and Batman for the billionth time*?


I certainly don't which was why I found Morrison's Talia refreshing in Inc

----------


## Restingvoice

> Does this count as controversial?
> 
> Selina Kyle should have had the Falcone parentage confirmed in Batman Eternal instead of having the Calabrese family created as an alternative. The Calabreses didnt really add anything, and the Falcones would have offered more interesting and perhaps more long lasting opportunities, simply each see they were more established and were more clearly placed as Batmans early enemies.


Not for me coz her mafia heritage, whether Calabrese or Falcone, doesn't really matter in the long run. They only use the Calabrese connection in that one arc and then they're gone, and the remains of The Falcones are just background characters now.

----------


## Astralabius

> I certainly don't which was why I found Morrison's Talia refreshing in Inc


So now she's just a completely character and everything people used to like her for is gone. Great. Good job Morrison.

I also wouldn't call turning another female asian dc character into the asian babymama trope refreshing. Actually I think was pretty racist of Morrison to do it.

----------


## dietrich

> So now she's just a completely character and everything people used to like her for is gone. Great. Good job Morrison.
> 
> I also wouldn't call turning another female asian dc character into the asian babymama trope refreshing. Actually I think was pretty racist of Morrison to do it.


Wasn't she a baby mama before Morrison?

Talia was introduced as a stereotype. She is Asian/Arabic who is under her father's control. Used as an exotic pawn to further his agenda and a terrorist.
She had no agency and wasn't her own person a lot of the time.

----------


## qwazer07

Talia was boring before Morrison. If she was your role model, you need a reality check. Morrison elevated Talia to the level of Ra's. She was given more power, agency and complexity she wouldn't have.

----------


## Sergard

> Talia was boring before Morrison. *If she was your role model, you need a reality check.* Morrison elevated Talia to the level of Ra's. She was given more power, agency and complexity she wouldn't have.


Anyone who has a fictional character as a role model needs a reality check.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> So now she's just a completely character and everything people used to like her for is gone. Great. Good job Morrison.
> 
> I also wouldn't call turning another female asian dc character into the asian babymama trope refreshing. Actually I think was pretty racist of Morrison to do it.


For others who didn't find anything interesting about her before, it was interesting. 

I think a lot of things about the al Ghuls and the tropes they embody are questionable, the franchise might have been better with never inventing them at all. It doesn't help that they are far removed from Batman's regular setting and supporting cast/villains to the point where you could probably lift them out and not lose much.

----------


## Aahz

> Selina Kyle should have had the Falcone parentage confirmed in Batman Eternal instead of having the Calabrese family created as an alternative. The Calabreses didnt really add anything, and the Falcones would have offered more interesting and perhaps more long lasting opportunities, simply each see they were more established and were more clearly placed as Batmans early enemies.


I think they should have never giver her this mafia connection, the Mafia thing is already covered by Huntress.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> I think they should have never giver her this mafia connection, the Mafia thing is already covered by Huntress.


I can add only this mafia connection doesn't add nothing to Catwoman.

----------


## witchboy

> Anyone who has a fictional character as a role model needs a reality check.


Fictional characters can still be inspiring, at it's best that's what fiction does. 
I grew up in a backwards conservative rural area, where racism, sexism, homophobia etc was taken for granted. I credit books, and comic books, for showing me a more diverse world, with better values.

----------


## marhawkman

> I can add only this mafia connection doesn't add nothing to Catwoman.


Honestly... does Selina Kyle make sense as a professional thief without connections to organized crime?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Honestly... does Selina Kyle make sense as a professional thief without connections to organized crime?


Yes. Could be something like a freelancer, having her own agenda, or something else.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Honestly... does Selina Kyle make sense as a professional thief without connections to organized crime?


Honestly have connection with the organized crime isn't synonym to be member of a mafia family, on the contrary the mafia business are opposite to a thief's business.

----------


## Aahz

The whole Mafia Family thing was never really used out side of the Genevieve Valentine run, and in that run Selina wasn't even really Catwoman.
So it is imo really pretty pointless.

And like I said if they really want to do Mafia Family stories, Huntress is the character created for that.

----------


## Gotham citizen

Her or Mallory Moxon.

----------


## marhawkman

> Honestly have connection with the organized crime isn't synonym to be member of a mafia family, on the contrary the mafia business are opposite to a thief's business.


How did Selina sell stolen goods?  She had to have some method of disposing of stolen goods.  I suppose if someone gives you a contract to steal something that's an inherent method, but the rest of the time?

----------


## Gotham citizen

In the Batman's stories the focus was how Batman would foil the Catwoman's robbery, not how Catwoman would have sold the stolen goods, but we can assume it is something that would be happened out of panel, like it happens often with other fictional thief; see the following answer for more details. Anyway there were stories were it was stated that Catwoman worked for someone, like it happened in the Telltale games or in "No man's land", where she was hired by Batman himself to do something (I don't remember what) in the Lex Luthor house.

----------


## Swallowtail

> How did Selina sell stolen goods?  She had to have some method of disposing of stolen goods.  I suppose if someone gives you a contract to steal something that's an inherent method, but the rest of the time?


Presumably the same way that Simon Templar, Thomas Crown, Carmen Sandiego, both Arsene Lupins and Oceans 11 move their stolen loot, The Association of Gentleman Fences.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How did Selina sell stolen goods?  She had to have some method of disposing of stolen goods.  I suppose if someone gives you a contract to steal something that's an inherent method, but the rest of the time?


She has a fence. In New 52, her name was Lola, a middle-aged woman, and after she was killed by a mob who found them out, the new one is Gwendolyn Altamont. She's still alive and attended Selina's Bachelorette's Party in Batman Prelude to the Wedding Red Hood issue.

----------


## redmax99

> Fictional characters can still be inspiring, at it's best that's what fiction does. 
> I grew up in a backwards conservative rural area, where racism, sexism, homophobia etc was taken for granted. I credit books, and comic books, for showing me a more diverse world, with better values.


i have so many thoughts about your post that i cant even put into words. you credit comic books for your values and i credit you for choosing to have better values than what your community might have taught.

----------


## qwazer07

> Anyone who has a fictional character as a role model needs a reality check.


Kinda the point of literature, don't you think? Characters embody human values and ideals. Things we aspire for. If Samwise Gamgee didn't exist, I would be a different person. He started my love of sidekicks and showed how strength of heart can prevail over physical strength. His speech to Frodo and also when he rejected the One Ring still sticks with me today.

----------


## Sergard

> Kinda the point of literature, don't you think? Characters embody human values and ideals. Things we aspire for. If Samwise Gamgee didn't exist, I would be a different person. He started my love of sidekicks and showed how strength of heart can prevail over physical strength. His speech to Frodo and also when he rejected the One Ring still sticks with me today.


There's a difference between a role model and an inspiration.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Honestly, I often thought she would find ways to donate them.

----------


## Gotham citizen

I don't think that will never happen: for what Harley Quinn's is loved by her fans because they see in her the bad girl who does everything she wants, without caring of the consequences of her actions.

----------


## Tzigone

> I can add only this mafia connection doesn't add nothing to Catwoman.


I absolutely agree. But I think it's so very forgettable that it's quite easy to discard. Indeed, I'd venture most don't even know it ever existed.




> Honestly... does Selina Kyle make sense as a professional thief without connections to organized crime?


Absolutely. Her crimes have almost always been solo gigs (especially in the old days). The only connections she needs are a good fence and maybe a money launderer, and those can theoretically be independent themselves.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I often wonder if Kelly should ever be a cannon Robin. I mean with Selina doesn't she generally just donate the money?

----------


## Will Evans

> I often wonder if Kelly should ever be a cannon Robin. I mean with Selina doesn't she generally just donate the money?


I thought Kelly was going to become the new actual Robin, after Damian died, and she came to question Bruce what happened to him. (She was tutoring him)

Controversial opinion: I miss when Selina was half-Cuban on her mother’s side.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I thought Kelly was going to become the new actual Robin, after Damian died, and she came to question Bruce what happened to him. (She was tutoring him)
> 
> Controversial opinion: I miss when Selina was half-Cuban on her mother’s side.


This makes me wonder. What if there were two robins at the same time.

----------


## Will Evans

> This makes me wonder. What if there were two robins at the same time.


Didn’t we have that with We Are Robin

----------


## CPSparkles

We've had more than one Robin at the sametime since the new 52
We are Robin and in Rebirth we went from Damian and Tim , with Tim taking up the sidekick position besides Kate and Bruce.
Damian and Jarro, with both taking up the sidekick position  besides Bruce in different titles

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don't really too many Batman comics but I remember at one point in either Batman the animated series or Batman Beyond that Batman had a musical made about him. Is there even a hint that happens in the comics? Like people making comics or movies about Baman and the villians

----------


## phantom1592

> I don't really too many Batman comics but I remember at one point in either Batman the animated series or Batman Beyond that Batman had a musical made about him. Is there even a hint that happens in the comics? Like people making comics or movies about Baman and the villians


I remember that. It was a great scene in Batman Beyond when Terry talked/forced Bruce to go to the show and Bruce is just watching and muttering 'I hate you..." Hilarious!

As for the rest... I remember a flashback or retelling in Green lantern where Charlie Vicker was involved in a Green Lantern TV show... and either he was attacked, or his brother was... or someone mistook the guy playing GL for the real one. It was kind of a footnote to the 'real' story, and i never tracked that issue down so i don't have all the details.  You can see someone 'playing' Tomar-Re here. 




I remember in the 90's Flash tv show, they passed a theater showing both Superman 77 and Batman 89 in a double feature... 


I FEEL like this is something that Maxwell Lord would have been involved in back with the JLI days... but don't remember a specific story...  It's always a bit different if there are no secret Identities known... but Marvel specifically has made a point that 'Marvel Comics' documents the adventures of various heroes in their universe.

----------


## randomideaguy

> I can add only this mafia connection doesn't add nothing to Catwoman.


I really liked the series where she took over Gotham. Honestly, I would just in general love to see her "break bad" again for a bit. But like in a way that's still true to her character. 

Her stint as mob boss worked alright. Have her beat Batman but still have some lines she won't cross. 

One series that I had thought would be fun was "Selina Kyle: Henchwoman For Hire". A solo set after the failed Bat-Wedding, she just travels the world and hires herself out as a security consultant for various villains. Have the series paint her as hypercompetent, and have awesome plans that would succeed if Lex Luthor could just resist the urge the monologue at Superman.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Batman would make a great Green Lantern and would be happy to police sector 2814 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Robanker

> Batman would make a great Green Lantern and would be happy to police sector 2814


He would be the only one happy he's policing Sector 2814. Modern interpretations of Batman are usually not cool when they get powers (usually Superman's).

----------


## Restingvoice

Batman needs a Robin because they represent innocence and positivity, a reminder of what he used to be, and as such became a person to protect and groom so they won't become like him. 

In this sense, they can not be replaced by just Alfred, who is already a world-weary adult with cynicism and skepticism. Alfred can be the advisor, but he couldn't be an aggressively positive force of change. 

Batman is aggressively broody and constantly facing the manifestation of insanity, so just having cool, respectful, snarky Alfred isn't enough. Alfred tends to be more passive and lets Bruce learn from his own mistake, like how a father exasperated with a stubborn child.

Robins, on the other hand, is loud, honest kids who can constantly challenge him, when he turns dark. 

So a Robin shouldn't be afraid of Batman, because that defeats the purpose. 

Damian is different in that he already became like him way ahead of his young age, and the purpose of taking care of him is to turn him around, to reverse that bad grooming. In that sense, Damian needs a Batman more than Batman needs a Robin, but his story _is_ supposed to be a full circle. The first Robin, now a well-adjusted, positive adult, meaning the original Batman and Robin relationship is a success, is the person Damian needs. 

Of course, as usual, DC happened. Either they make Batman too annoying that even Robin can't stand and leave, or they forget that as an adult he has an obligation to raise a child, or they make Robin too scared of Batman. Usually to show how bad things get and the stakes are high, but it's getting predictable, and that's another topic.

----------


## marhawkman

> Batman would make a great Green Lantern and would be happy to police sector 2814


He'd probably be better as a Yellow lantern.  :Smile:   Except he presumably would be unwilling to work for Sinestro.  Actually he'd probably be unwilling to work for the Guardians too.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Batman needs a Robin because they represent innocence and positivity, a reminder of what he used to be, and as such became a person to protect and groom so they won't become like him. 
> 
> In this sense, they can not be replaced by just Alfred, who is already a world-weary adult with cynicism and skepticism. Alfred can be the advisor, but he couldn't be an aggressively positive force of change. 
> 
> Batman is aggressively broody and constantly facing the manifestation of insanity, so just having cool, respectful, snarky Alfred isn't enough. Alfred tends to be more passive and lets Bruce learn from his own mistake, like how a father exasperated with a stubborn child.
> 
> Robins, on the other hand, is loud, honest kids who can constantly challenge him, when he turns dark. 
> 
> So a Robin shouldn't be afraid of Batman, because that defeats the purpose. 
> ...


That's why for me Dick Batman and Damian Robin era is perfect. The journey they've made since zero, to see Damian gradually respect Dick, and to see Dick gradually understand Damian's feeling, it just beautiful.

----------


## AmiMizuno

This is why I feel at times Bruce needs Robin more than Robin needs Bruce.  At least with the other Robins cases. With Damian like many have said Dick is the best one. In a sense I wonder at time if Damian should be the one training with Dick a lot more than he is with Bruce

----------


## Spencermalley935

I personally can't stand Leslie Thompkins. I know what she's supposed to represent (that good people still live in Gotham) but she's just so self-righteous. Her naivie pacifism and constant lecturing are also extremely aggravating. On top of that, She's just not that interesting or even all that likable either.

Her story in Detective Comics #1000 really made me remember how much I dislike her.

----------


## phantom1592

> This is why I feel at times Bruce needs Robin more than Robin needs Bruce.  At least with the other Robins cases. With Damian like many have said Dick is the best one. In a sense I wonder at time if Damian should be the one training with Dick a lot more than he is with Bruce


Not sure that's controversial. It was actually the stated reasoning behind Tim Drake picking up the mask.

I think the only one who really thinks that the Robins needed Batman is Batman himself.

----------


## Alan2099

> I personally can't stand Leslie Thompkins. I know what she's supposed to represent (that good people still live in Gotham) but she's just so self-righteous. Her naivie pacifism and constant lecturing are also extremely aggravating. On top of that, She's just not that interesting or even all that likable either.
> 
> Her story in Detective Comics #1000 really made me remember how much I dislike her.


I never hated the character, but I've always found her to be dull and boring.  She's never really felt like an important character to me no matter how hard the books try to tell us she is.  

Other unpopular opinions ...


The idea that Alfred worked for Bruce's parents and took care of him when he was a little kid up until now has never felt right to me.  I much prefer the old backstory where Batman and Robin are already active before Alfred comes to live with them.  

Tim Drake is the best Robin.  

Batman looks better in spandex with trunks than he has ever looked in armor.  (The movies not withstanding.)

Joker being in love with Batman, being a force of nature, and philosophizing about how the word if mad or anyone could be mad has ruined the character.  Joker being an eccentric, ego maniac gangster with a love for the theatrical is far more interesting.  

The Dark Knight would have been a better movie WITHOUT Joker.  Playing the mob and the police against each other, the two boats, two hostages in two locations, all of that feel like classic Two-Face plots.

----------


## phantom1592

> I never hated the character, but I've always found her to be dull and boring.  She's never really felt like an important character to me no matter how hard the books try to tell us she is.  
> 
> Other unpopular opinions ...
> 
> 
> The idea that Alfred worked for Bruce's parents and took care of him when he was a little kid up until now has never felt right to me.  I much prefer the old backstory where Batman and Robin are already active before Alfred comes to live with them.  
> 
> Tim Drake is the best Robin.  
> 
> ...


Yeah... I agree with all of this.  Batman in armor has always been a sore point for me. I just don't think Batman can be Batman if he's sacrificing so much mobility for defense. Tim... Alfred... Leslie... Yeah, I agree with all of that. Especially the Joker. 

I never even considered that about TDK... but you're spot on. That really does feel like a Two Face plot pushing the duality of humanity and all that... Wow... Now I kind of want to watch it again.

----------


## Spencermalley935

> I never hated the character, but I've always found her to be dull and boring.  She's never really felt like an important character to me no matter how hard the books try to tell us she is.  
> 
> Other unpopular opinions ...
> 
> 
> The idea that Alfred worked for Bruce's parents and took care of him when he was a little kid up until now has never felt right to me.  I much prefer the old backstory where Batman and Robin are already active before Alfred comes to live with them.  
> 
> Tim Drake is the best Robin.  
> 
> ...


These portrayals of the Joker aren't mutually exclusive, He can very easily be both. Ledgers Joker was very theatrical and eccentric.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> These portrayals of the Joker aren't mutually exclusive, He can very easily be both. Ledgers Joker was very theatrical and eccentric.


The Joker should be a dangerous entertainer. That's what Leto is missing. He's just another gangster. My guess is Matt Reeves is setting Joker up via the Red Hood in his 1st movie?? Now I just realized how much I hate Scott Snyder's-immortal-I-sleep-under-your-bed-Joker. Ugh. James McAvoy would make a nice Joker

----------


## dietrich

All Robins are best Robins since we as readers all have subjective taste.

If Robin is the light then Tim and Damian are the worst since Bruce reached the apex of Toxic behaviour under them.

Dick Grayson is the best since he is the only Robin who ever had a positive effect on Batman.  The only one@Alan2009

----------


## Will Evans

Tim should change his name to Redwing.

----------


## Coco Loco

> The idea that Alfred worked for Bruce's parents and took care of him when he was a little kid up until now has never felt right to me.  I much prefer the old backstory where Batman and Robin are already active before Alfred comes to live with them.  
> \


Co-sign.  The modern insistence on Alfred being Bruce's "father" does not sit right with me.  If Alfred was a good father, Bruce would be better-adjusted.  At minimum, an attentive father would have gotten Bruce into therapy and/or helped him come to terms with his parents' death.


Not sure whether this is actually unpopular, but having a madcap character like Harley Quinn running around so prominently kind of breaks Batman's world, and devolves it into self-parody.

----------


## Gotham citizen

Also the past writers didn't think it was a good idea to put Alfred in paternal role, in fact in origin Bruce was raised by his uncle Philip.

----------


## Coco Loco

> Tim should change his name to Redwing.


Tim should change his *civilian* name to Redwing.  Redwing Drake.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If a robin movie were to be made. What would you want to do?  What books would you base it off? For Damian maybe we can do a Batman and Robin movie. Where Dick is Batman arc.

----------


## John Venus

Making Dick 'graduate' to Batman takes away what makes him unique. Nightwing is Dick becoming his own man. 

Having Bruce adopt Tim Drake in main continuity was a mistake. Tim having his own family was what made him unique.  Like Terry, he should have the option to be able to walk away from it all one day but he *chooses* to risk his life anyway that's what makes him interesting. 

The Dark Knight is overrated. Batman's 'detective work' was more ludicrous than anything on CSI, Joker wasn't funny and Two Face was underused. The refusal to have any connective tissue between movies hurt the trilogy;  Rachel Dawes should have been Harvey Dent, Talia should have been the love interest of the first movie, Harvey Dent should have been properly set up in the first movie so his downfall in the second would have had more impact, Gordon's son at the end could have been replaced by Barbara Gordon and JGL's entire character could have been replaced by Barbara Gordon. The characters don't feel like people and more like moving parts of a machinery with each character representing a concept.  

Barbara Gordon is at a dead end character wise if she doesn't 'evolve' into Oracle or something else (maybe Congresswoman?).  The Birds of Prey doesn't work unless it's the creation of an older, wiser Barbara Gordon using her new found edge to help other superheroes.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Barbara Gordon is at a dead end character wise if she doesn't 'evolve' into Oracle or something else (maybe Congresswoman?).  The Birds of Prey doesn't work unless it's the creation of an older, wiser Barbara Gordon using her new found edge to help other superheroes.


I think it's more the existence and (well deserved) overall success of Kate as Batwoman that hinders Babs-as-Batgirl. Because, if TKJ never happened or was reversed earlier, the next logical step is to go from Batgirl to Batwoman (like Shayera did to Hawkwoman). She'd remain a distaff counterpart to Batman like she did originally, it doesn't have to be a legacy title and she wouldn't be any more of a "dead end" than Bruce is as Batman, because he's not going anywhere. 

But the opportunity came and went, mostly because Batgirl fell out of favor for a bit in the 80s and she got shot before BTAS happened to boost her profile again.

----------


## Fergus

> Tim should change his name to Redwing.


No. Tim should find an identity and not piggy back off his more successful Bros. He is bestest afterall so why should he piggy back off those losers.

Not to mention that smushing Red Hood and Nightwing together like they are linked is the worst idea

----------


## Spencermalley935

*




 Originally Posted by Coco Loco


Co-sign.  The modern insistence on Alfred being Bruce's "father" does not sit right with me.  If Alfred was a good father, Bruce would be better-adjusted.  At minimum, an attentive father would have gotten Bruce into therapy and/or helped him come to terms with his parents' death.


*


> Not sure whether this is actually unpopular, but having a madcap character like Harley Quinn running around so prominently kind of breaks Batman's world, and devolves it into self-parody.


That's kind of the point there, man. Alfred was forced into a role he wasn't prepared for but he also ensured that Bruce at least grew up with something of a moral compass for when he inevitably became Batman. If Alfred doesn't encounter Bruce until he's a grown man than who's gonna serve as his legal guardian when he's still a kid?

----------


## witchboy

> [B]
> 
> That's kind of the point there, man. Alfred was forced into a role he wasn't prepared for but he also ensured that Bruce at least grew up with something of a moral compass for when he inevitably became Batman. If Alfred doesn't encounter Bruce until he's a grown man than who's gonna serve as his legal guardian when he's still a kid?


Earth 1 Bruce's guardian was his uncle Phillip, who I don't recall ever seeing. I get the impression he dumped Bruce in a boarding school and rarely visited. Alfred as his guardian was a big change, but it's one that seems to have stuck. 
It's a good point that Bruce being so messed up does make Alfred look somewhat negligent. 
The Gotham series showed Alfred as a loving guardian, but he still maintained a role as a servant which gave young Bruce a lot of autonomy.

----------


## Alan2099

> It's a good point that Bruce being so messed up does make Alfred look somewhat negligent.


It also makes Bruce look like an even bigger dick than usual, when he's bossing around the guy that raised him.

----------


## Spencermalley935

> It also makes Bruce look like an even bigger dick than usual, when he's bossing around the guy that raised him.


It also makes the relationship between Bruce and Alfred more than just a standard "master and servant" deal. I don't know, It's something that's just been so thoroughly baked into the mythos at this point that I just can't see them going back to the "Uncle Phillip" stuff.

----------


## marhawkman

> It also makes the relationship between Bruce and Alfred more than just a standard "master and servant" deal. I don't know, It's something that's just been so thoroughly baked into the mythos at this point that I just can't see them going back to the "Uncle Phillip" stuff.


Yeah Alfred spends almost as much time bossing Bruce around.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Bruce was more well adjusted as an adult in the pre-COIE continuity.

Phillip > Alfred as a guardian, apparently. Or at least he was pretty neglectful and Bruce still ended up (relatively) ok somehow, whereas Alfred was more involved and saw where it was heading and it still resulted in a hot mess of a human being. And much like the Kents being alive after Clark becomes Superman, I think Alfred being around Bruce near-constantly from the beginning robs him of a little independence. At least for a character that didn't need that setup before hand and it was retroactively applied (I'm not saying all superheroes with living parents or guardians are not independent, their stories are just differently structured).

----------


## Restingvoice

> I never hated the character, but I've always found her to be dull and boring.  She's never really felt like an important character to me no matter how hard the books try to tell us she is.


Leslie was not created to be an important character in terms of involvement with Bat-family but more like a symbol of hope in Crime Alley. Hope for Bruce that things will get better or for the criminals to have someone to care because she doesn't view them as a lost cause. I believe she works just fine being what she was, believing what she does if she stays in Crime Alley and not get involved often unless the Bat-family is injured around that area. Sort of a supporting character that shows up every once in a while.

As for Alfred being a father figure to Batman, I don't mind as long as he's not that good.  

Alfred didn't sign up to be a father but a butler after being a secret agent and combat medic, leaving his own daughter behind. So he's set up as to not be a good father and that's why Bruce turned out the way he did, has morals, but still dark,  because Alfred didn't know what to do with him.

I believe it was Dark Victory where he confirmed that he didn't know what to do with Bruce, but by the time Dick arrived he's become better at raising a kid. 

My problem is in the hero-worship Alfred gets as a father figure. It doesn't make sense for him to be that good right off the bat. Alfred's skill as a father should develop slowly over time, the same as Bruce to the Robins.

Same with Bruce. Speaking about him bossing him around, I want him to not realize that he has a family in Alfred until much, much later. Years. I don't know who realizes it first, but I want them to keep their professionalism for the longest time, keeping their feelings a secret, until a significant event happened that makes them realize that yes, they are family. They're still gonna keep the professional facade for the most part after that, but with an unspoken understanding that they've become more than that.

----------


## marhawkman

Hmm which is the better baby momma for Bruce: Talia or Selena?  Personally I'd say Talia.

----------


## Rise

> Bruce was more well adjusted as an adult in the pre-COIE continuity.


Alfred has been around in Pre-crisis during the time when Bruce was well adjusted....

Getting rid of Alfred is big no no to me because he is one of the best things to happen to the mytho and I always enjoyed how unimpressed he is with Batman and his relationship with him in general.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Alfred has been around in Pre-crisis during the time when Bruce was well adjusted.....


Which had nothing to do with Alfred, as Bruce didn't meet him until he was an adult. Phillip Wayne and Alice Chillton took care of him.

Alfred being the most enabling and incompetent guardian ever is a post-COIE invention. Nobody is suggesting we get rid of Alfred, just that how good the post-COIE setup is is open for debate.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> []
> Nobody is suggesting we get rid of Alfred, just that how good the post-COIE setup is is open for debate.


417CVAiSffL._AC_.jpg

Debate closed.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## godisawesome

> Which had nothing to do with Alfred, as Bruce didn't meet him until he was an adult. Phillip Wayne and Alice Chillton took care of him.
> 
> Alfred being the most enabling and incompetent guardian ever is a post-COIE invention. Nobody is suggesting we get rid of Alfred, just that how good the post-COIE setup is is open for debate.


It would actually work better probably to have Bruce Wayne’s guardianship years have Alfred as an initially peripheral figure, and use Phillip as the main failed parental figure who Bruce racks up his anti-social years under, then have Alfred come in when Bruce is already set on being something dangerous and unhealthy, and try and have Alfred’s military and spy history be something he uses to try and refocus and help Bruce with.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> 417CVAiSffL._AC_.jpg
> 
> Debate closed.


Meaning we can't dislike the post-COIE setup or...?




> It would actually work better probably to have Bruce Wayne’s guardianship years have Alfred as an initially peripheral figure, and use Phillip as the main failed parental figure who Bruce racks up his anti-social years under, then have Alfred come in when Bruce is already set on being something dangerous and unhealthy, and try and have Alfred’s military and spy history be something he uses to try and refocus and help Bruce with.


This could work too.

In general, despite the fact that post-COIE tried to be relatively more grounded and realistic, Bruce seemingly not having any extended family at all and being raised exclusively by his butler always seemed a little weird. I actually think he'd be a richer character with Phillip, Agatha and Van in his life, if only to highlight how he keeps them at arms length but lets Alfred and Dick in deeper.

----------


## Spencermalley935

I'll lay down a few more 

Damian Wayne is both insufferable and redundant as a character

Ledgers Joker did not need to be in the sequel to The Dark Knight

Michael Keaton was a mediocre Bruce Wayne

Batman TAS has quite a few shortcomings in terms of portraying certain characters (Bane, Catwoman, Hugo Strange)

Black Mask is extremely overrated and there's literally nothing he can do that the Penguin can't do just as well if not better. I especially don't like his skull-face, torture fetish shtick that modern comics give him and I much prefer his original depiction.

Calendar Man and Maxie Zeus are both great additions to Batmans rogues gallery and should not be considered as jokes 

Mask of the Phantasm is not the flawless Batman experience it's often made out to be

The Telltale Games are better than the Arkham Games

The Burton movies are entertaining movies that happen to feature Batman but terrible Batman movies.

Grant Morrison's Batman run is not all it's cracked up to be

Harley Quinn has become overexposed to the point where it's difficult to enjoy her

The Joker needs to take a break from live-action media for a while

The Riddler should not be portrayed as a Saw/Seven-type serial killer

The Penguin is better when he's a criminal genius with a flair for the dramatic than as a mobster/club owner

Killer Croc is not a cannibal

TDK trilogy versions of Lucius Fox and Jim Gordon are the definitive versions of those characters.

----------


## Will Evans

> Hmm which is the better baby momma for Bruce: Talia or Selena?  Personally I'd say Talia.


Talia will always be a mother for when Bruce has a son.

Selena will always be a mother  for when Bruce has a daughter.

I can’t see Talia having a daughter. I can’t see Selena having a son.

----------


## Alan2099

> The Penguin is better when he's a criminal genius with a flair for the dramatic than as a mobster/club owner


Agreed!  Give the guy back his trick umbrellas and let him start commit crimes again.

----------


## Celgress

> Agreed!  Give the guy back his trick umbrellas and let him start commit crimes again.


I agree that the current Penguin sucks. He should return to his criminal ways ASAP.

----------


## Will Evans

I don’t know about that. I like that Penquin is the only classic Bat villain not sent to Arkham because he’s not insane.

Being a criminal genius is fine. The occasional umbrella with hidden weapon is fine.

Making him too over the top with dramatic flair is not fine. Then he’ll be declared insane too.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Talia will always be a mother for when Bruce has a son.
> 
> Selena will always be a mother  for when Bruce has a daughter.
> 
> I can’t see Talia having a daughter. I can’t see Selena having a son.


Talia has a daughter on Injustice Universe, her name Athanasia Al-Ghul. Even though for me Athanasia just copy version of Damian before his development with Bruce and Dick (well, she is literally Damian's clone maybe), and I suspected that Taylor created Athanasia because he grow fond of Damian and want to write him on better light, but he still wants a character on his story as bashing punching bag.
On Batman Brave and Bold animation, Selena has a son, interestingly his name is Damian. Even though it turns out that was only Alfred's fanfiction. I am fairly new DC fan, is it common for Alfred to write fanfiction about his master's family life? I also recall he once wrote fanfiction about Dick as Bruce's true son (and has ginger hair). I always see him as noble refined British butler so it's kinda hilarious for me.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Talia has a daughter on Injustice Universe, her name Athanasia Al-Ghul. Even though for me Athanasia just copy version of Damian before his development with Bruce and Dick (well, she is literally Damian's clone maybe), and I suspected that Taylor created Athanasia because he grow fond of Damian and want to write him on better light, but he still wants a character on his story as bashing punching bag.
> On Batman Brave and Bold animation, Selena has a son, interestingly his name is Damian. Even though it turns out that was only Alfred's fanfiction. I am fairly new DC fan, is it common for Alfred to write fanfiction about his master's family life? I also recall he once wrote fanfiction about Dick as Bruce's true son (and has ginger hair). I always see him as noble refined British butler so it's kinda hilarious for me.


Old Golden-Silver Age Alfred was more of a funny man, the sometimes pompous butler with a funny British accent who wants to be cooler than he is, not the refined hypercompetent former MI6 combat medic butler of today.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So we learn who gets Bruce Wayne's estate. Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. What about Step or Cassie than again they weren't adopted were they?

----------


## Light of Justice

> So we learn who gets Bruce Wayne's estate. Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. What about Step or Cassie than again they weren't adopted were they?


I don't think Steph was adopted by Bruce, and Cassie do you mean Cassandra? She should be adopted by Bruce but maybe DC retconned that.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yes, Cassandra. I mean should the two be adopted or be put into other Families

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes, Cassandra. I mean should the two be adopted or be put into other Families


Since fans like things, the way they are, Cassandra's adopted

Steph, I forget the status of her parents. Originally her mother's good, but in New 52 she's bad too. So if both parents are unavailable I don't mind her being adopted. We have many rooms in the Manor.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> Meaning we can't dislike the post-COIE setup or...?
> […]


Meaning on the long term the post C.O.I.E. setup should be put in a trashcan, because it has been more a harm than a benefit. Obviously we had some great stories or some good idea post-CIOE, but overall it seems to me almost everyone looks back with regret to the pre-CIOE Batman, because he was a more sane person.
For example I really love the retcon of Jason Todd's origins, because he became a more interesting character (for me at least) and I find very interesting the idea to see Bruce try to educate a boy who is too violent, rebel and reckless to become a Robin, but if I think the idea is good, I also feel the execution very dislikable; in fact the purpose of the writer was to kill Jason Todd, not to develop both the characters.

----------


## witchboy

> Talia has a daughter on Injustice Universe, her name Athanasia Al-Ghul. Even though for me Athanasia just copy version of Damian before his development with Bruce and Dick (well, she is literally Damian's clone maybe), and I suspected that Taylor created Athanasia because he grow fond of Damian and want to write him on better light, but he still wants a character on his story as bashing punching bag.
> On Batman Brave and Bold animation, Selena has a son, interestingly his name is Damian. Even though it turns out that was only Alfred's fanfiction. I am fairly new DC fan, is it common for Alfred to write fanfiction about his master's family life? I also recall he once wrote fanfiction about Dick as Bruce's true son (and has ginger hair). I always see him as noble refined British butler so it's kinda hilarious for me.


In the Silver Age there was a series of stories that were Alfred's fanfiction about Bruce's future life. 
Bruce and Kathy Kane/Batwoman had a red headed son who was the new Robin and Dick took over as the new Batman.

----------


## Coco Loco

> I'll lay down a few more 
> 
> Damian Wayne is both insufferable and redundant as a character
> 
> Batman TAS has quite a few shortcomings in terms of portraying certain characters (Bane, Catwoman, Hugo Strange)
> 
> 
> Harley Quinn has become overexposed to the point where it's difficult to enjoy her
> 
> ...


I agree with all of these to some degree.

I like Damian fine but he probably should have been left dead after Inc.  He's an interesting character but does not make a good partner for Bruce, especially in the more street-level stories.

Harley's rarely funny.

TAS never quite got Catwoman or Riddler right IMO.  

Penguin has become a mostly boring background element since going "legit".  He's become a plot device that Batman jobs endlessly to get information.

Riddler needed a bit of an edge in modern times - his riddles needed to have some sort of mortal peril attached to them.  But they've taken that too far by having him be a bloodthirsty serial killer.

----------


## godisawesome

> I agree with all of these to some degree.
> 
> I like Damian fine but he probably should have been left dead after Inc.  He's an interesting character but does not make a good partner for Bruce, especially in the more street-level stories.
> 
> Harley's rarely funny.
> 
> TAS never quite got Catwoman or Riddler right IMO.  
> 
> Penguin has become a mostly boring background element since going "legit".  He's become a plot device that Batman jobs endlessly to get information.
> ...


Damian is a character who I think honestly works better with almost everyone other than his father... even those family members he’s not social with and treats antagonistically.

Riddler... honestly, here I’m in a bit of a bind. BTAS only ever really did three episodes with him as the main villain... but I think those three episodes had him feel genuinely intelligent and “cool” in comparison to a lot of his other appearances. He’s better than the Arkham version who became more of an annoyance outshined by the challenges he was associated with by the development team, and tendency of stuff like King or Johns’s work to make him more saw-like loses some of his edge as well, since it often feels less like he’s an absurdly clever antagonist and more like he’s a garden variety psycho.

He could be reimagined a bit. Maybe make him a villain based entirely off information and scheming based plans - have him be a blackmailer (like Charles Augustus Milverton from Sherlock Holmes), a consulting criminal (like Moriarty in A Valley Of Fear), or just a guy who uses deductions he’s made about secrets all around Gotham as his tools. Keep him rational as much as possible, and maybe avoid having him cheat that much - a smart villain who ups his game upon discovering a worthy opponent, rather than someone who leaps to cheating.



The issue was that the BTAS crew flat out found him difficult to write because they wanted to preserve that intelligence; Glover’s voice work hit the right blend of “insufferably charming,” and they were right to make him a more rational villain overall

----------


## marhawkman

> Damian is a character who I think honestly works better with almost everyone other than his father... even those family members he’s not social with and treats antagonistically.
> 
> Riddler... honestly, here I’m in a bit of a bind. BTAS only ever really did three episodes with him as the main villain... but I think those three episodes had him feel genuinely intelligent and “cool” in comparison to a lot of his other appearances. He’s better than the Arkham version who became more of an annoyance outshined by the challenges he was associated with by the development team, and tendency of stuff like King or Johns’s work to make him more saw-like loses some of his edge as well, since it often feels less like he’s an absurdly clever antagonist and more like he’s a garden variety psycho.
> 
> He could be reimagined a bit. Maybe make him a villain based entirely off information and scheming based plans - have him be a blackmailer (like Charles Augustus Milverton from Sherlock Holmes), a consulting criminal (like Moriarty in A Valley Of Fear), or just a guy who uses deductions he’s made about secrets all around Gotham as his tools. Keep him rational as much as possible, and maybe avoid having him cheat that much - a smart villain who ups his game upon discovering a worthy opponent, rather than someone who leaps to cheating.
> 
> The issue was that the BTAS crew flat out found him difficult to write because they wanted to preserve that intelligence; Glover’s voice work hit the right blend of “insufferably charming,” and they were right to make him a more rational villain overall


Best use of Riddler IMO was when he decided to work for GCPD and try to defeat Batman in a way no other man has ever done: being a better detective.

It's a face turn, full 180 face turn.  It meant having Edward Nygma talking to cops in the police station, analyzing crime scene photos, documenting crime scenes....  I loved it.  :Big Grin:  it lets Riddler be the genius mastermind and fully lean on his intellect in story telling.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Joker should never know how the Batfam is. I think that kills the excitement. He doesn't want to see Batman as a normal man

----------


## Frontier

> Damian is a character who I think honestly works better with almost everyone other than his father... even those family members he’s not social with and treats antagonistically.
> 
> Riddler... honestly, here I’m in a bit of a bind. BTAS only ever really did three episodes with him as the main villain... but I think those three episodes had him feel genuinely intelligent and “cool” in comparison to a lot of his other appearances. He’s better than the Arkham version who became more of an annoyance outshined by the challenges he was associated with by the development team, and tendency of stuff like King or Johns’s work to make him more saw-like loses some of his edge as well, since it often feels less like he’s an absurdly clever antagonist and more like he’s a garden variety psycho.
> 
> He could be reimagined a bit. Maybe make him a villain based entirely off information and scheming based plans - have him be a blackmailer (like Charles Augustus Milverton from Sherlock Holmes), a consulting criminal (like Moriarty in A Valley Of Fear), or just a guy who uses deductions he’s made about secrets all around Gotham as his tools. Keep him rational as much as possible, and maybe avoid having him cheat that much - a smart villain who ups his game upon discovering a worthy opponent, rather than someone who leaps to cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue was that the BTAS crew flat out found him difficult to write because they wanted to preserve that intelligence; Glover’s voice work hit the right blend of “insufferably charming,” and they were right to make him a more rational villain overall


I think there's a degree of necessity for the Riddler to be insufferable because of his ego and insatiable need to prove he's smarter then everyone else. I feel like Wally Wingert's manic and arrogant intellectual Riddler made for the perfect antagonist to make you do a bunch of small-scale side-missions just to see Batman finally put him in his place and get him to finally shut up  :Big Grin: .

----------


## godisawesome

> I think there's a degree of necessity for the Riddler to be insufferable because of his ego and insatiable need to prove he's smarter then everyone else. I feel like Wally Wingert's manic and arrogant intellectual Riddler made for the perfect antagonist to make you do a bunch of small-scale side-missions just to see Batman finally put him in his place and get him to finally shut up .


The thing for me is that it makes him feel more like an irritant than an opponent - insufferable _but fun to watch/see Batman opposed against_ is what I like for Riddler, whereas a Riddler who is consistently outsmarted at his own game by Batman like clockwork *and* can’t successfully cheat against him on his own terms feels kind of pathetic. At least BTAS Riddler forced Batman to cheat _against him_, by hijacking his labyrinth’s tech in their first meeting, then having Robin and others try to outflank Riddler’s programs while simultaneously applying lateral thinking to overwhelm Riddler’s VR program. That keeps Riddler smart and intimidating while still being insufferable; he’s better as a dungeon master who’s been genuinely thrown by a clever player bending and breaking the rules rather than someone so predictable that he relies on railroading stuff his way.

Though a lot of my distaste’s with the Arkham Riddler can be summarized in two words:

_Riddler Trophies._

I *hate* Riddler trophies. Not the 10 or so across the three games I’ve played that were genuinely fun to get. Not the Riddles, which are great blendings  of Easter Eggs with trivia and puns. I’m talking the hundreds of fetch quest items I have to waste my time on to get the necessary completion rate the game needs.

----------


## Spencermalley935

> Best use of Riddler IMO was when he decided to work for GCPD and try to defeat Batman in a way no other man has ever done: being a better detective.
> 
> It's a face turn, full 180 face turn.  It meant having Edward Nygma talking to cops in the police station, analyzing crime scene photos, documenting crime scenes....  I loved it.  it lets Riddler be the genius mastermind and fully lean on his intellect in story telling.


The Riddler never worked for the GCPD, He was a private detective who worked for whoever payed him. That was a fun, little change to the status quo but obviously it could never last forever.

----------


## superduperman

B-rex should get an ongoing!

----------


## marhawkman

> The Riddler never worked for the GCPD, He was a private detective who worked for whoever payed him. That was a fun, little change to the status quo but obviously it could never last forever.


Oh right, I remember a lot of scenes of him talking to cops, but now that you mention it he always dressed like the Riddler.

----------


## AmiMizuno

While I don't hate we have no members. I also feel we might just need to limit the member of Batfam. I don't mind killing them just stop having so many.

----------


## Shadowcat

Jim Aparo, Don Newton, and Gene Colan are the greatest Bat artists of the Bronze Age.

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

Bette Kane should get a miniseries.

----------


## Agent Z

DC should have retired Mr Freeze years ago. Either kill him off or let him finally cure his wife. Either way, his story has worn out its welcome.

----------


## Tzigone

> DC should have retired Mr Freeze years ago. Either kill him off or let him finally cure his wife. Either way, his story has worn out its welcome.


Absolutely agree.  Though I do want to comment that (per B:TAS, which introduced the idea of this backstory), he was not trying to save his wife when he started as Mr. Freeze - he believed her dead and was trying to get revenge on those responsible for her death. It's  distinction that is often lost, and makes him look better than he actually was.

----------


## prepmaster

Is this controversial?

----------


## lemonpeace

> Is this controversial?


not really, plenty of art doesn't include all the members; it's a large family of characters.

----------


## Frontier

> Is this controversial?


The most controversial aspect is Harley being counted as Batfamily.

----------


## marhawkman

> The most controversial aspect is Harley being counted as Batfamily.


If she needs to ba associated with a major hero Batman makes most sense though....

----------


## Gaius

Batman’s villains be interpreted as stand-ins for various mental illnesses is rather poor and a bit insulting honestly.

----------


## Restingvoice

> not really, plenty of art doesn't include all the members; it's a large family of characters.


Yes because there's Harley and not Jason, Babs and Tim.

----------


## marhawkman

> Batman’s villains be interpreted as stand-ins for various mental illnesses is rather poor and a bit insulting honestly.


Yeah that angle is way overdone.  People don't NEED to have mental disorders to be evil.  Lex is the poster boy for THAT!

----------


## Godlike13

> Is this controversial?


But but Oracle’s like super important...

----------


## prepmaster

I think this line up of Batfam makes sense. Batman is the main guy and the brain of the Batfam, his sidekick Robin being his son, Harley being included for a redemption arc & a wildcard, Catwoman being there for team up with Harley, Dick being the heart of the Batfam while background characters have their own things like Cass being asian & top tier h2h fighter, Duke being metahuman & black, Batwoman being lesbian. Jason is better off not being included in Batfam. Only con is Tim being sent into limbo and Babs isnt gonna go out on the streets to do crimefighting. The lineup has enough diversity to draw in readers from various demographics and doesnt suffer from gender imbalance. A fam consists of about 9 - 10 members where half of the line up are prominant characters.

----------


## The tall man

At this point the Batfamily should just be dissolved. It serves no purpose and all the individual members would be better off doing their own thing. And no one can claim that one character is getting the spotlight over another. The family was always a dumb idea anyway, and Batman was better off when it was just him, Alfred, Dick and Gordon. End the family and let everyone stand on their own.

----------


## the nomad

> But but Oracles like super important...


Not as important as Harley it seems. Harley on her own is tolerable but part of the Batfamily....really. I mean really.

----------


## Agent Z

DC pretending Oracle isn't important doesn't mean its true.

----------


## Arsenal

Harley being part of the Batfam would only make sense if there was a period where Selina was the big bat in charge.

----------


## Tzigone

> Harley being part of the Batfam would only make sense if there was a period where Selina was the big bat in charge.


Actually, I've never thought it made sense for Selina to pal around with Harley (or Pam).  The whole Gotham City Sirens thing was a no-go for me from the start, because of that.

----------


## the nomad

> DC pretending Oracle isn't important doesn't mean its true.


I hope not, Barbara is one of my fav characters. And her being relegated to the background is one of the reasons why I've been not liking the idea of her becoming Oracle again, especially when's she's got the use of her legs now.  SO we'll see. 




> Harley being part of the Batfam would only make sense if there was a period where Selina was the big bat in charge.


Honestly Harley being part of the Batfamily makes no sense in any form or fashion. There is no scenario in which she can be part of the family, not after all the BS she's done and continues to do.  They tried that in Injustice, and honestly it made Batman look like a villain.  

And not that you sorta bring it up, is it even okay for Selina to be associated with the Bat-family. I mean technically isn't she a villain.  She only plays of the part of an Anti-hero when Batman is around, but she still steals from ppl and occasionally is in involved in murder.   She only gets a pass because you she sleeps with him from time to time.   I wonder what the other true Bat-family members think of her.

----------


## lemonpeace

> Yes because there's Harley and not Jason, Babs and Tim.


....it's just a cropped image for the DC reddit bruhbruh. we've all see the original image that had the entire Bat-roster (including Barbara,  and Jason, and Tim) these are just the ones that were close to Batman on the page; it really ain't that deep. again, there is plenty of art where members are left out of the picture. it just isn't controversial that the ones who are and will always be in 80% of the Batfamily pictures aren't in this one picture to me.

people are way too sensitive about Harley and it's really concerning.

----------


## Godlike13

> ....it's just a cropped image for the DC reddit bruhbruh. we've all see the original image that had the entire Bat-roster (including Barbara,  and Jason, and Tim) these are just the ones that were close to Batman on the page; it really ain't that deep. again, there is plenty of art where members are left out of the picture. it just isn't controversial that the ones who are and will always be in 80% of the Batfamily pictures aren't in this one picture to me.
> 
> people are way too sensitive about Harley and it's really concerning.


Did not know this, image is a non issue in that case.

----------


## lemonpeace



----------


## Drako

> ....*it's just a cropped image for the DC reddit bruhbruh*. we've all see the original image that had the entire Bat-roster (including Barbara,  and Jason, and Tim) these are just the ones that were close to Batman on the page; it really ain't that deep. again, there is plenty of art where members are left out of the picture. it just isn't controversial that the ones who are and will always be in 80% of the Batfamily pictures aren't in this one picture to me.
> 
> people are way too sensitive about Harley and it's really concerning.


Yeah, pretty much.

----------


## prepmaster

> ....it's just a cropped image for the DC reddit bruhbruh. we've all see the original image that had the entire Bat-roster (including Barbara,  and Jason, and Tim) these are just the ones that were close to Batman on the page; it really ain't that deep. again, there is plenty of art where members are left out of the picture. it just isn't controversial that the ones who are and will always be in 80% of the Batfamily pictures aren't in this one picture to me.
> 
> people are way too sensitive about Harley and it's really concerning.


Still the position of where these characters are placed show their importance. Its not a random art at all. How can someone draw something that it can be cropped so nicely? You can clearly see who are the background characters and who are not. Harley is to the right of Batman.

----------


## lemonpeace

> Still the position of where these characters are placed show their importance. Its not a random art at all. How can someone draw something that it can be cropped so nicely? You can clearly see who are the background characters and who are not. Harley is to the right of Batman.


DC has an arbitrary character hierarchy = water wet. it's an ensemble shot, it truly does not matter

----------


## the nomad

> ....i*t's just a cropped image for the DC reddit bruhbruh*. we've all see the original image that had the entire Bat-roster (including Barbara,  and Jason, and Tim) these are just the ones that were close to Batman on the page; it really ain't that deep. again, there is plenty of art where members are left out of the picture. it just isn't controversial that the ones who are and will always be in 80% of the Batfamily pictures aren't in this one picture to me.
> 
> *people are way too sensitive about Harley and it's really concerning*.


Huh. I didn't know that about the image either. But still though, there's being sensitive and then there's the sheer exhaustion of overexposure.

----------


## lemonpeace

> Huh. I didn't know that about the image either. But still though, there's being sensitive and then there's the sheer exhaustion of overexposure.


there are people tired of the overexposure of Batman, I'm one of them, yet people don't jump at the chance to piss and moan everytime he appears. so you can miss me with that "sheer exhaustion" noise, respectfully. she doesn't bother me but I'm nowhere close to a fan, however, I recognize that CLEARLY Harley is popular enough to warrant the exposure to DC. just like people justify Batman's overexposure. you can not like a character, that's fine, but people just need to get over the Harley whingeing at this point. it's trite.

----------


## the nomad

> there are people tired of the overexposure of Batman, I'm one of them, yet people don't jump at the chance to piss and moan everytime he appears. so you can miss me with that "sheer exhaustion" noise, respectfully. she doesn't bother me but I'm nowhere close to a fan, however, I recognize that CLEARLY Harley is popular enough to warrant the exposure to DC. just like people justify Batman's overexposure. you can not like a character, that's fine, but people just need to get over the Harley whingeing at this point. it's trite.


LOL! I agree, I'm one of those PPl too, Batman is overexposed. I make comments on that too.  And ok, so Harley doesn't bother like it does other ppl....okay. So what ppl can still have the right to voice their opinions. I mean isn't this a forum dedicated to just that or did I mis-read the forum title. 

She was popular bc of her movie coming out, and now the movie is over, so I'm just hoping DC dials back the Harley throat shoving. Marvel did the same thing with Wolverine and Deadpool.  At least Marvel Killed off Wolverine for like a year, and Deadpool is starting to recede a bit at least until Deadpool 3 assuming Disney has the stones to make an R rated movie. 

I have no idea what Whingeing means.    but on it being Trite, maybe it is, but so is ppl complaining about ppl who complain about Harley.

----------


## Frontier

For me it's not just the overexposure but how nonsensical Harley's role and dynamics with other characters end up feeling as a result of said overexposure.

----------


## Gaius

> For me it's not just the overexposure but how nonsensical Harley's role and dynamics with other characters end up feeling as a result of said overexposure.


I don't read the Bat-books but this is my problem with her also. There's no reason when Harley shows up in other characters book it shouldn't end with her being thrown in the slammer or how Harley writers have to make other characters the boring sticks in the mud for her "comedy" standout.

There is no reason for the various times DC teams up her with Diana and makes them act like buddies other than they're their two most popular female characters.

----------


## Jcady59

> Still the position of where these characters are placed show their importance. Its not a random art at all. How can someone draw something that it can be cropped so nicely? You can clearly see who are the background characters and who are not. Harley is to the right of Batman.


I don’t think so Joker is on the side that was cropped out and we know for a fact that I’d DC sees anyone as the second most important character in the Bat franchise is him, likewise we know ghost maker is going to be Important to Tynion’s run moving forward.

----------


## Jcady59

> I don't read the Bat-books but this is my problem with her also. There's no reason when Harley shows up in other characters book it shouldn't end with her being thrown in the slammer or how Harley writers have to make other characters the boring sticks in the mud for her "comedy" standout.
> 
> There is no reason for the various times DC teams up her with Diana and makes them act like buddies other than they're their two most popular female characters.


Most heroes at DC should be in favor of rehabilitation so most of them wouldnt really be against Harley if she became a hero the problem is( and where I agree with the complaints about Harley hanging around the heroes) that DC never properly conveyed her rehabilitation, she started out as a villain  and then she got popular and now shes a hero no growth they just tells shes good now.

----------


## Gaius

> Most heroes at DC should be in favor of rehabilitation so most of them wouldn’t really be against Harley if she became a hero the problem is( and where I agree with the complaints about Harley hanging around the heroes) that DC never properly conveyed her rehabilitation, she started out as a villain  and then she got popular and now she’s a “hero” no growth they just tells she’s good now.


Yeah, this is a problem in the main books/most versions of Harley but it was in _Injustice_ where it really grinded my gears how she was on the side of angels despite being as responsible for the events of the series as the Joker was but did nothing to makeup for it.

----------


## Jcady59

> Yeah, this is a problem in the main books/most versions of Harley but it was in _Injustice_ where it really grinded my gears how she was on the side of angels despite being as responsible for the events of the series as the Joker was but did nothing to makeup for it.


I remember someone saying in another Thread how DC wanted to have their cake and eat it too when it came to Harley,that they wanted her to be presented as a hero but not lose the bad girl persona she has going on but as a result you get stuff like injustice where characters come off as morally reprehensible for working with her. Think about how DC nit working on her turn is going to effect her stories moving forward, like her inevitable inclusion in the league.

----------


## Nite-Wing

The bat office is pretty much circling the drain creatively I think it's a sign or an omen

Batman, Joker, and Harley Quinn 
That's all that sells now 
Those are the only characters getting elseworlds content 
the only characters that seem to be moving this era of Batman
The hollywood movies aren't going to touch the bat family ever imo that can be taken up by the video games and animated movies but not good enough 


The last decade could basically be summed up with Batman and the court of owls
The 2000s was basically Batman and Hush

We are closing in on 3 decades of no one doing anything with the bat family. Morrison did Batman inc and I think it basically ended up a flop when you look at it in a vacuum
Once he left no one kept any of his ideas because he set Batman back the way he found him
Maybe it's time to retire the concept just to come back with a fresh take and appreciate it later nothing is being done with these characters and gotham is their prison. their fans are starting to resent Batman for keeping these characters stuck
bold for the characters who definitely need help now 

*Dick* can start his own team sink or swim he's an adult not a beholden to Bruce keeping him around is no good

*Jason* started his own team and does his own thing but that's because of Lobdell someone else will come along and make gotham his cage

*Tim* has no direction and I'm not sure why there are multiple robins

*Damian* should have stayed dead. Batman shouldn't have a son. DC has soldiered on but its obvious nobody wants to touch the character or even acknowledge him. Better to just kill him off

*Kate* is a mess, the tv show is terrible, the comics are worse, and you can't even highlight her familial relationship with Bruce its a bad period for her

*Duke* is a mess imo, He should have became Robin and he should not have powers. It's too easy to say he doesn't fit in gotham and the setting and that's sad because he brings a much needed change from the clones of Bruce

Cass as Batgirl is an improvement 
Steph could be hurt by Tim's situation but pairing her up with Cass works fine

Alfred is still dead and I guess he's staying dead to make room for more 

And then there's even more tertiary characters that pop in and out like Gotham Girl and Bluebird
It's all too much for one character to support 
DC will truly be on the path to failure when Batman is finished

----------


## mathew101281

> The bat office is pretty much circling the drain creatively I think it's a sign or an omen
> 
> Batman, Joker, and Harley Quinn 
> That's all that sells now 
> Those are the only characters getting elseworlds content 
> the only characters that seem to be moving this era of Batman
> The hollywood movies aren't going to touch the bat family ever imo that can be taken up by the video games and animated movies but not good enough 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not sure where your getting the idea that Damion Wayne isn’t popular.

----------


## Caivu

> I’m not sure where your getting the idea that Damion Wayne isn’t popular.


Heck, basically everything in that about those bolded characters is flat wrong.

----------


## marhawkman

> Yeah, pretty much.


So Batman hangs out with Kherubim now?  I still haven't wrapped my head around how DC has reconciled THAT with DC comics history.

----------


## Aahz

> Im not sure where your getting the idea that Damion Wayne isnt popular.


I think Nite-Wing refers to that apart from Thomasi non of the Batman writers in the past years, really used Damian that much as Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> We are closing in on 3 decades of no one doing anything with the bat family.


In the 90s and early 2000s the Batfamily was pretty well used imo.




> Morrison did Batman inc and I think it basically ended up a flop when you look at it in a vacuum
> Once he left no one kept any of his ideas because he set Batman back the way he found him


I think that comes down to Inc. just being way to many characters that were added to the allready pretty large Batfamily, and people prefering Batman in Gotham over him travelling to Random locations all over the world.

----------


## Godlike13

They do stuff with the bat family, whether it’s good is another story. But they do things. Technically.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> The bat office is pretty much circling the drain creatively I think it's a sign or an omen
> 
> *We are closing in on 3 decades of no one doing anything with the bat family.* Morrison did Batman inc and I think it basically ended up a flop when you look at it in a vacuum


Tim Drake had the 3 mini series that lead to his long running solo of 180 issues.
Nightwing had a mini that led to the first of many long runs-153 for volume 2.
Huntress had a mini.
Jean Paul after leaving Batman had his own solo run for 100 issues.
Catwoman started the first of many solo runs with a 92 issue run.
Harley started with a few minis and team book before her solo run.
Gotham Central went 40 issues.
Cassandra Cain started her now broken record for an Asian female solo run (by Ms Marvel) and PROVED a title called Batgirl could sell for 72 issues.

Orpheus, Michael Lane, Stephanie Brown, Damian, Luke Fox, Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Outsiders, Red Hood, Duke Thomas, Gotham Academy, Ivy, Joker, Punchline, Clown Hunter, Chase, Crispus Attucks, Mother Panic, Jace Fox, Babs Gordon, Jim Gordon and Renee Montoya all either saw a one shot, mini or ongoing or extend arc.

6 characters boast over 100 solo issues. With Cass, Batwoman and Harley needing 1-3 years to do the same.
5 females have over 50 solo issues.
8 women have had either a mini, one shot or ongoing
6 black males have had either an ongoing, one shot or mini.

Let me put it in context-

The ONLY franchise who can come close to this is SPIDER-MAN and he trails big time.

So where is this nothing has been done with them come from?

I am sure Flash and ESPECIALLY Green Lantern fans would love to be in Batman's shoes.

----------


## Nite-Wing

> Tim Drake had the 3 mini series that lead to his long running solo of 180 issues.
> Nightwing had a mini that led to the first of many long runs-153 for volume 2.
> Huntress had a mini.
> Jean Paul after leaving Batman had his own solo run for 100 issues.
> Catwoman started the first of many solo runs with a 92 issue run.
> Harley started with a few minis and team book before her solo run.
> Gotham Central went 40 issues.
> Cassandra Cain started her now broken record for an Asian female solo run (by Ms Marvel) and PROVED a title called Batgirl could sell for 72 issues.
> 
> ...


Batman as a franchise supports a lot of books mostly because DC needs to milk his name to make a profit to make room for books elsewhere(Didio even said as much for why a book like jonah hex could continue being published) my argument is that nothing of substance is being done with the large tent concept 
All those characters and concepts drop in and out of limbo constantly
If DC is only keeping it around to produce more content then its a bad move.

I can't say its a good thing when a writer has no idea what to do with a character and they start being written badly or worst drop off the page entirely 
Look at Ric Grayson
Look at what happened to Harper once Snyder left 
Look at Damian currently 

Its a creative dead end imo

----------


## Mistah K88

I was reading things like _Batman: The Adventures Continue_ and _Batman Annual #5_ and felt that having Harley conveniently leave when Joker was about to kill or torture someone was such BULL. I could only imagine if Mad Love were written today the whole dentist scene where Joker about to put a drill to Gordon's head they would have had Harley exit the room rather than stand right beside him smiling. The fact that writers have to retroactively make Harley disappear when Joker did something horrific when they were together is rather jarring to me.

----------


## Gaius

> I was reading things like _Batman: The Adventures Continue_ and _Batman Annual #5_ and felt that having Harley conveniently leave when Joker was about to kill or torture someone was such BULL. I could only imagine if Mad Love were written today the whole dentist scene where Joker about to put a drill to Gordon's head they would have had Harley exit the room rather than stand right beside him smiling. The fact that writers have to retroactively make Harley disappear when Joker did something horrific when they were together is rather jarring to me.


Yeah, this is part of a problem of the character discussed earlier. They want the credibility of the clown princess title by making her Jokers lackey but none of the consequences that it actually means and comes with it. 

Like running around in an SS uniform because you think it looks cool but dont really think what causally wearing that actually means.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I think Nite-Wing refers to that apart from Thomasi non of the Batman writers in the past years, really used Damian that much as Robin.


Sad that batman and Robin hasn't really been a dynamic duo in the bat titles since Jason's tenure.

Still Nite-Wing's comment is a very odd one to make about the Bat character that's only behind Bruce and Harley in terms of writers using him. 

Also the comment of only Bruce and Harley getting elseworld  contentis also incorrect.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Batman as a franchise supports a lot of books mostly because DC needs to milk his name to make a profit to make room for books elsewhere(Didio even said as much for why a book like jonah hex could continue being published) my argument is that nothing of substance is being done with the large tent concept 
> All those characters and concepts drop in and out of limbo constantly
> If DC is only keeping it around to produce more content then its a bad move.
> 
> I can't say its a good thing when a writer has no idea what to do with a character and they start being written badly or worst drop off the page entirely 
> Look at Ric Grayson
> Look at what happened to Harper once Snyder left 
> Look at Damian currently 
> 
> Its a creative dead end imo


Bad examples. Dick and Damian are the two with upcoming content that's actually got fans excited.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Bad examples. Dick and Damian are the two with upcoming content that's actually got fans excited.


Plus Harper is also going to be a part of the upcoming Joker title with Punchline, and the one-shot she was in got good reviews.

----------


## Stars & Stripes

> Plus Harper is also going to be a part of the upcoming Joker title with Punchline, and the one-shot she was in got good reviews.


Hoping that the backups are popular enough that it somehow leads to her being the lead in a mini or something.

----------


## Gaius

Arkham Asylum should either be abandoned as a concept in the Batman mythos or completely re-invented from the ground up as currently it only exists to promulgate stereotypes about the mentally ill (his rogues) and those who work in the mental health industry (Strange and Harley Quinn). 

Ditto for Joker's "insanity plea" defense.

----------


## Tzigone

I have to admit to not being at all onboard with the idea that the bulk of Batman's rogues are mentally ill.  Ventriloquist and Two-Face, okay, but not so many of the others. Including the Joker - much prefer him as just sane and evil.

----------


## marhawkman

> Arkham Asylum should either be abandoned as a concept in the Batman mythos or completely re-invented from the ground up as currently it only exists to promulgate stereotypes about the mentally ill (his rogues) and those who work in the mental health industry (Strange and Harley Quinn). 
> 
> Ditto for Joker's "insanity plea" defense.


Ah, but his is not universally true.  Some actually are.  But more often than not the writing just doesn't work.

It's often used as an excuse for why they don't get sent to death row or something... and honestly... that's a bad reason to do it.  What's the point to intense psychotherapy if the patient is incurable... or just not really insane?

Also Gotham has Blackgate prison, which is a more conventional sort.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Arkham Asylum should either be abandoned as a concept in the Batman mythos or completely re-invented from the ground up as currently it only exists to promulgate stereotypes about the mentally ill (his rogues) and those who work in the mental health industry (Strange and Harley Quinn). 
> 
> Ditto for Joker's "insanity plea" defense.


Somewhat along similar lines, I think everything related to the Al Ghul portion of the mythos should be retired.

----------


## Mutant God

> Arkham Asylum should either be abandoned as a concept in the Batman mythos or completely re-invented from the ground up as currently it only exists to promulgate stereotypes about the mentally ill (his rogues) and those who work in the mental health industry (Strange and Harley Quinn). 
> 
> Ditto for Joker's "insanity plea" defense.





> Ah, but his is not universally true.  Some actually are.  But more often than not the writing just doesn't work.
> 
> It's often used as an excuse for why they don't get sent to death row or something... and honestly... that's a bad reason to do it.  What's the point to intense psychotherapy if the patient is incurable... or just not really insane?
> 
> Also Gotham has Blackgate prison, which is a more conventional sort.


I think Blackgate is for normal criminals and Arkham is for super powered criminals and irrational dangerous people who are up for life in prison since I think Death Penalty is illegal in Gotham. I actually love the theme of mental illness/complexes in Batman's Rogues since its one of the reasons his' are so unique.

----------


## Mistah K88

Methinks that Arkham can be problematic when IN UNIVERSE that it is well known as a lost cause...to the point a judge sent Warren White there out of spite. I will say that a good chunk of the Arkham inmates need to stop being serial murderers if we want to take that place semi-seriously.

----------


## mathew101281

> Somewhat along similar lines, I think everything related to the Al Ghul portion of the mythos should be retired.


Why? I dont feel  the Al Ghul is inherently problematic. Which I feel is what your implying.

----------


## Restingvoice

Arkham's problem is they want it both to be a horror house and a legit mental institution. Arkham has a rep for the doctors abusing patients but they also have a facility for non-criminal. 

Just like how GCPD is corrupt, I guess that kind of concept can work since that's basically Gotham. A horror house that Bruce and Gordon try to fix because there's a small portion of good in it, and they did make an effort to make it more secure and healthy before it's forgotten in the next arc because they want to do a Joker event

The Al Ghul is part of DC's problem with the Middle East in general. They made at least 2 Middle Eastern fictional countries in DCU known to be dangerous or under a dictatorship. Qurac and Khandaq. In comparison, they don't have fictional American countries where people are fat and eat burgers all day. 

Then the number of good Middle Eastern characters they have that make a regular appearance. Baz... and Damian who they most often portray as mini-Bruce than anything representing Arabic culture... when they're not making him be a violent, murderous Robin.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Why? I don’t feel  the Al Ghul is inherently problematic. Which I feel is what your implying.


The Middle Eastern terrorist angle that they run on is pretty played out.

Plus they are so far removed from the regular stomping grounds of Batman and his other foes that I don't think losing them would negatively impact much.

----------


## Gaius

> Somewhat along similar lines, I think everything related to the Al Ghul portion of the mythos should be retired.


Yeah, I can see that given how they rely on Beware the Orient and Dragon Lady cliches. 

Plus I'd be rather hard pressed to name a Ra's story I've liked made in the last few...decades by this point. 



> I think Blackgate is for normal criminals and Arkham is for super powered criminals and irrational dangerous people who are up for life in prison since I think Death Penalty is illegal in Gotham. I actually love the theme of mental illness/complexes in Batman's Rogues since its one of the reasons his' are so unique.


In a vacuum there can be interesting stories done with it, yes, but I think in general it's just used to make some of his villains seem deeper than they really are by relying on "the mentally ill are menace to us" stereotypes. Especially since also Arkham is pretty much a shorthand for supervillain prison these days rather than a psychiatry ward. 

And I'm pretty sure by this point that most of Bats' villains have probably committed crimes that cross state lines so even the argument "Gotham, or the state Gotham's in, doesn't have the death penalty" probably doesn't even  hold up.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Alan2099

> they don't have fictional American countries where people are fat and eat burgers all day.


Big Belly Burger is the number 1 fastfood chain in DC's America.  Does that count for anything?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Big Belly Burger is the number 1 fastfood chain in DC's America.  Does that count for anything?


No coz the DC America is not defined by it. I haven't even heard of Big Belly Burger until someone mentions it in the DC characters food thread

----------


## Aahz

> and Damian who they most often portray as mini-Bruce than anything representing Arabic culture...


The Al Ghuls don't have much to do with Arabic culture...

----------


## Restingvoice

> The Al Ghuls don't have much to do with Arabic culture...


True, it will be worse if they do, but Damian's a high profile hero, so they can use him

----------


## Aahz

But with Damians Family background it would probaly not such a good idea to play the diversity angle up to much.

And like I said it would also really be in line with how Ras and the LoA were portrait in the past, and how and where Damian was raised.

Btw. I find it wired that for some reason people seem to always forget that both Damian and Cass are actually half Caucasian, and don't really have and arabic/asian cultural background, which makes them both not exactly the best options for representation.

----------


## John Venus

> The Middle Eastern terrorist angle that they run on is pretty played out.
> 
> Plus they are so far removed from the regular stomping grounds of Batman and his other foes that I don't think losing them would negatively impact much.


On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains. 

Ras is not rooted  in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible.  His motives are goals are his own.

----------


## The tall man

I think Bruce should be the arbiter for who gets to wear the bat symbol. Now I'm not saying that he should get to decide who becomes a crime fighting vigilantly, he has no say in that. But he most definitely should have a say in who slaps a bat symbol on their chest and claim to represent it. Also did the mantle of Batman needs to end with Bruce, Batman should just be a "thing" that  had a finite span, no need for it to continue on after him. The mantle of Batman should not be something that anyone can just claim, it cheapens and devalues it.

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## Tzigone

> I think Bruce should be the arbiter for who gets to wear the bat symbol. Now I'm not saying that he should get to decide who becomes a crime fighting vigilantly, he has no say in that. But he most definitely should have a say in who slaps a bat symbol on their chest and claim to represent it. Also did the mantle of Batman needs to end with Bruce, Batman should just be a "thing" that  had a finite span, no need for it to continue on after him. The mantle of Batman should not be something that anyone can just claim, it cheapens and devalues it.


I can agree with that. He owns the Batsymbol, but he doesn't own Gotham.  I also am in very much in agreement with not passing the mantle. Indeed, it's a person, not a title to me (same for most heroes - not a fan of legacies). And, in-universe, it's insulting to other heroes the greatest thing they can ever do is step into a senior heroes boots. That they could never make their names as great or respected or valued.  That their greatest worth comes from being heir to that other person's title instead of all the other actions they achieved under their own.

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## prepmaster

Those that truly understand what Batman is would not want to be Batman. Dick Grayson is one of the few persons to understand it. And its the reason why Bruce would trust Dick the most to be a good Batman.

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## Tzigone

> Those that truly understand what Batman is would not want to be Batman. Dick Grayson is one of the few persons to understand it. And its the reason why Bruce would trust Dick the most to be a good Batman.


Well, if anyone else became Batman, they could easily change "what Batman is" and be more like the old Batman or other heroes, who manage the hero business quite well and can have it be a positive impact on their lives.

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## prepmaster

> Well, if anyone else became Batman, they could easily change "what Batman is" and be more like the old Batman or other heroes, who manage the hero business quite well and can have it be a positive impact on their lives.


Being Batman does not correlate much with pursuing personal goals. The secret identity combined with a growing number of enemies alone are a problem, not mentioning other sacrifice one has to be willing to make as Batman. Batman is the most feared figure to criminals in Gotham.

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## Tzigone

> Being Batman does not correlate much with pursuing personal goals. The secret identity combined with a growing number of enemies alone are a problem, not mentioning other sacrifice one has to be willing to make as Batman. Batman is the most feared figure to criminals in Gotham.


That doesn't make him any different than any other hero (with a secret identity), IMO. I also strongly disagree that heroes shouldn't be able to pursue personal goals. I'm getting kind of tired of "being a hero is a soul-sucking calling that destroys your life" and would much prefer the older idea that, while not without its sacrifices, being a hero is a net positive in the lives of most of them. That's its something fulfilling instead of destructive for the majority who engage in it (and all who do so long-term, because I need to want the hero to be hero in order to enjoy reading, and I can't when it's nothing but a long, slow drive inevitably ending in misery and destroying the life of the hero).

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## prepmaster

> That doesn't make him any different than any other hero (with a secret identity), IMO. I also strongly disagree that heroes shouldn't be able to pursue personal goals. I'm getting kind of tired of "being a hero is a soul-sucking calling that destroys your life" and would much prefer the older idea that, while not without its sacrifices, being a hero is a net positive in the lives of most of them. That's its something fulfilling instead of destructive for the majority who engage in it (and all who do so long-term, because I need to want the hero to be hero in order to enjoy reading, and I can't when it's nothing but a long, slow drive inevitably ending in misery and destroying the life of the hero).


Batman is a different kind of hero. He is not an ordinary hero that saves lives. He is the kind of hero that instills fear onto criminals.

A soldier does not go to the frontline and brings his family with him.

Batman understands the pain of losing loved ones and does not want others become close to him and suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down.

This is why Batman struggles between his love life and crime fighting career. He just cant allow others to suffer from the same trauma he is suffering from.

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## Agent Z

> On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains. 
> 
> Ras is not rooted  in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible.  His motives are goals are his own.


The al Ghuls have the problem of being Orientalist in a way a lot of pre-2000s Asian characters from the Big 2 are. Ra's is often coded as a terrorist if not referred to one outright in a way other Gotham villains aren't. When Talia isn't being depicted as a Dragon Lady stereotype, she's more of an "exotic lover" and is another example of DC refusing to let Asian women be positive influences in their kids' lives. 

The al Ghuls can be written well but it requires examining and excising a lot of ugly and outdated tropes for them.

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## Restingvoice

> But with Damians Family background it would probaly not such a good idea to play the diversity angle up to much.
> 
> And like I said it would also really be in line with how Ras and the LoA were portrait in the past, and how and where Damian was raised.
> 
> Btw. I find it wired that for some reason people seem to always forget that both Damian and Cass are actually half Caucasian, and don't really have and arabic/asian cultural background, which makes them both not exactly the best options for representation.


It's not that they forget, is that they want them to have that cultural background, because they're popular can be a more visible rep.

Although when it comes to Cass Cain I haven't really seen people asking for a cultural rep... they're already happy with her status as the most badass in the family, and I guess... their bigger problem is making DC to get Cass better treatment and more appearances.

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## marhawkman

> On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains. 
> 
> Ras is not rooted  in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible.  His motives are goals are his own.


The same sort of thing is true of Teth Adam.  They're characters vaguely tied to the region, but... not really meant to represent it.  That's kind of a red-herring in general.  Characters in fiction for the most part should not be written to "represent" entire nations or cultures.  That way leads to stupid plots and bad writing.

Here's a question most X-Men fans can't answer:  what countries do the various Acolytes and MLF members come from?

The answer is really hard since... those are background details the books rarely talk about.  Some of them are confusing too since you have assorted tidbits from several stories... that seemingly conflict.  Like Dragoness, aka Tamara Kurtz, She looks like some version of Caucasian, her name is a combination of central European and Ashkenazi Jew names.  But her backstory is her parents were exposed to the fallout of the Hiroshima bombing while her mother was pregnant with her... then she grew up in Madripoor which is a fictional nation in SE Asia.  1: this means she's in her 80s, despite looking like early 30s at oldest.  2:  What is her actual cultural background?



> But with Damian's Family background it would probably not such a good idea to play the diversity angle up to much.
> 
> And like I said it would also really be in line with how Ras and the LoA were portrait in the past, and how and where Damian was raised.
> 
> Btw. I find it wired that for some reason people seem to always forget that both Damian and Cass are actually half Caucasian, and don't really have and arabic/asian cultural background, which makes them both not exactly the best options for representation.


Well Damian was in part raised by his mother and has adopted some of her cultural values... which annoy Batman.   Not that those are defined in the comics beyond "LoS assassin".  Cassandra Cain though? yeah... she was raised by her father... badly.

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## SiegePerilous02

> On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains. 
> 
> Ras is not rooted  in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible.  His motives are goals are his own.


I have to agree with what Agent Z said. Their entire organization is coded as terrorists in a way that white villains aren't (despite the Joker being as much of a terrorist). Plus Talia is either a glamorous prize/temptation for Batman or a Dragon lady. And I say that as someone who really likes Morrison's Talia because at least she's competent and not f***ing around anymore between the dick measuring context between Bruce and Ra's. But I also wouldn't lose sleep if the whole setup would be excised. Because it requires a lot of careful writing and excising of stuff, after which they might not even resemble themselves anymore anyway. 




> Batman is a different kind of hero. He is not an ordinary hero that saves lives. He is the kind of hero that instills fear onto criminals.
> 
> A soldier does not go to the frontline and brings his family with him.
> 
> Batman understands the pain of losing loved ones and does not want others become close to him and suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down.
> 
> This is why Batman struggles between his love life and crime fighting career. He just cant allow others to suffer from the same trauma he is suffering from.


I think the emphasis on instilling fear into people over protecting people is where a lot of Batman writing goes astray.

His main goal should be to be a protector and avenger, not to be a monster people fear (even if it is bad people). It's a secondary tool in service of the main goal.

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## godisawesome

> I have to agree with what Agent Z said. Their entire organization is coded as terrorists in a way that white villains aren't (despite the Joker being as much of a terrorist). Plus Talia is either a glamorous prize/temptation for Batman or a Dragon lady. And I say that as someone who really likes Morrison's Talia because at least she's competent and not f***ing around anymore between the dick measuring context between Bruce and Ra's. But I also wouldn't lose sleep if the whole setup would be excised. Because it requires a lot of careful writing and excising of stuff, after which they might not even resemble themselves anymore anyway. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the emphasis on instilling fear into people over protecting people is where a lot of Batman writing goes astray.
> 
> His main goal should be to be a protector and avenger, not to be a monster people fear (even if it is bad people). It's a secondary tool in service of the main goal.


Ive been thinking that if I were to adapt Ras to a new story, I would emphasize his secularism, drop a bunch of the pseudo-religious undertones (like the use of master, any suicidal cult elements), and try to reformat the character all around the idea of his goals and personality making his attempt to recruit Batman make some actual sense. You could honestly abuse his Lazarus Pit elements to make him be a guy whose simply lived so much longer than he should have that he has a very rationally displayed and restrained but still present god complex where he feels like he has the right to judge every human being and cultures worthiness to live.

Make the Al Ghul organization more of an international criminal fiefdom thats committed some absurdly terrifying atrocities both for profit and to suit Ras own personal sense of justice... and maybe explicitly make it clear that any organization called The Demon isnt backed by any organized religion and is in fact despised by them. Something like: they started as the Quarac-born Rass personal revolutionary army, grew tired of the failure of the people to maintain the peace they kept on overthrowing tyrants for, and Ras escalated to misanthropic and self-righteous executioner by detonating the nukes Cheshire used to be blamed for as punishment for their inequities.

...And maybe make Talia a fusion with Andrea Beaumont who was living with her mother instead of her father, so she fell for Bruce before she fell under her fathers influence, and than fuse Talias more traditional aspects with the Phantasm before going full Leviathan boss.

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## Tzigone

> I think the emphasis on instilling fear into people over protecting people is where a lot of Batman writing goes astray.


I tend to agree. Of course, most heroes are feared to some degree my criminals. And I'm fine with the "cowardly, superstitious lot" where they are scared by his costumeness and takedowns.  But this dark, terrifying Batman who even scares (or even intimidates) other heroes is not a good thing.  Where he sacrifices his humanity/empathy/any softness at all in favor of grinding criminals into dust.  I mean, yes, scaring criminals is _part_ of his motif, but it should not be the whole of him or of what he does as Batman.  Think back to that old '80s story "You Should Have Seen Him" and how we see those different facets. He saves (and shouts at) a young man attempting suicide, threatens and scares the crap out of an armed robber threatening an old woman (he vows to inflict endless pain on him without letting him die -similar to what we're used to now), and he sheds a tear over two homeless children who lost their father and takes them home and finds their aunt.  It's as subtle as anvil, I'll grant you, but it's very good at showing the different ways Batman acts with different people. He does save lives, protect people, help people.  It's just as much as what he does as instilling fear in criminals. I hate that that's so often not focused on, or even lost.  That being that scary BatDemon is as an act of theater as Brucie (not a fan of Brucie, either, as I liked a Bruce with a life and normal friends, etc.).

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## godisawesome

> I tend to agree. Of course, most heroes are feared to some degree my criminals. And I'm fine with the "cowardly, superstitious lot" where they are scared by his costumeness and takedowns.  But this dark, terrifying Batman who even scares (or even intimidates) other heroes is not a good thing.  Where he sacrifices his humanity/empathy/any softness at all in favor of grinding criminals into dust.  I mean, yes, scaring criminals is _part_ of his motif, but it should not be the whole of him or of what he does as Batman.  Think back to that old '80s story "You Should Have Seen Him" and how we see those different facets. He saves (and shouts at) a young man attempting suicide, threatens and scares the crap out of an armed robber threatening an old woman (he vows to inflict endless pain on him without letting him die -similar to what we're used to now), and he sheds a tear over two homeless children who lost their father and takes them home and finds their aunt.  It's as subtle as anvil, I'll grant you, but it's very good at showing the different ways Batman acts with different people. He does save lives, protect people, help people.  It's just as much as what he does as instilling fear in criminals. I hate that that's so often not focused on, or even lost.  That being that scary BatDemon is as an act of theater as Brucie (not a fan of Brucie, either, as I liked a Bruce with a life and normal friends, etc.).


I’d love it if they modified the “Bat-signal” from an illogical holdover that not even the BTAS show used a lot, and made it more of a “summon Batman ritual” that regular citizens, criminals, and others have used for different reasons. So it wouldn’t explicitly be a sign of hope, but almost like an invocation that even children know could help them out of a jam, or that a repentant criminal might use if his boss has gone too far... and that malevolent forces still regard it as an “evil sign”.

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## prepmaster

The point of his crusade against crime is because he doesnt want others to suffer like him. When you write Batman as a married man and still commits himself to crime fighting, it would not make sense for the character.  He is someone who suffers from the trauma of losing his loved ones and yet he would risk leting his love suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down in fighting crime?  He would be really conflicted. Other heroes can have their love life but Batman is not someone who can allow others to suffer like him.

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## Tzigone

> I’d love it if they modified the “Bat-signal” from an illogical holdover that not even the BTAS show used a lot, and made it more of a “summon Batman ritual” that regular citizens, criminals, and others have used for different reasons. So it wouldn’t explicitly be a sign of hope, but almost like an invocation that even children know could help them out of a jam, or that a repentant criminal might use if his boss has gone too far... and that malevolent forces still regard it as an “evil sign”.


I can't get past the idea that it would be used _constantly_, to the point that never be any time it wasn't being used.  

Really, also, I'm less than keen on hero symbols broadly being really meaningful symbols to the wider community. It's just got a bit too much potential for worship/deification of heroes/symbols.  I'm not a fan of Space-Jesus Superman, already, and this, while not as extreme, just isn't my thing.




> When you write Batman as a married man and still commits himself to crime fighting, it would not make sense for the character. He is someone who suffers from the trauma of losing his loved ones and yet he would risk leting his love suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down in fighting crime?


Yeah, he'd never risk someone he loved losing him to death because he was fighting crime...that's why he's risked leaving more than one child parentless by fighting crime and being a parent at the time same time.  I mean, come on, he's risked leaving behind a grieving loved one ever since he took in Dick Grayson and became a parent to him. The vast majority of his history, that's been a possibility.

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## prepmaster

> Yeah, he'd never risk someone he loved losing him to death because he was fighting crime...that's why he's risked leaving more than one child parentless by fighting crime and being a parent at the time same time.


He took in orphans who already lost parents. Batman saw that they were suffering like him so he took them in.

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## Tzigone

> He took in orphans who already lost parents. Batman saw that they were suffering like him so he took them in.


Yes. And he risked them suffering even more by losing _another_ parent. Yet somehow it's out of the question for him to marry a (far less vulnerable) grown woman who makes an informed choice that the good is worth risking that sort of loss?  Can't agree with that.

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## prepmaster

> Yes. And he risked them suffering even more by losing _another_ parent. Yet somehow it's out of the question for him to marry a (far less vulnerable) grown woman who makes an informed choice that the good is worth risking that sort of loss?  Can't agree with that.


The Robin aspect is one of the unrealistic aspect of Batman since no one in real life would allow a child to fight crime. 

Even when he took in Robins, Batman was still devoted to crime fighting more than taking care of them. Alfred was the one who does the hard work.

Marrying someone and starting a family life of your own is different. 

Would Batman want a child that he truly raises up to see him die fighting in a crime alley?

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## Tzigone

> Even when he took in Robins, Batman was still devoted to crime fighting more than taking care of them. Alfred was the one who does the hard work.


Alfred wasn't there when he took in Dick. That's a retcon/reboot thing.  And even when Alfred was there, the kids still regarded Bruce as their father, and would have borne the emotional loss/grief of him being killed.

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## prepmaster

> And even when Alfred was there, the kids still regarded Bruce as their father, and would have borne the emotional loss/grief of him being killed.


The Robins were written to be mature enough to do crime fighting on their own so they were not that different from mature adults. They were children but with adult minds. When they became Robin, they were not like his small sons that need to be taken care of.

If they had been written as small sons that need to be taken care of, Bruce would not have devoted to crime fighting.

Past comics are less grounded than modern day ones.

Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. They didnt think much about what Bruce would do as a character, just want Batman to have a young sidekick.

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## Godlike13

Bruce took in 1 orphan who lost his parents. And crime fighting is how he took care of them. They were incorporated into his life.

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## godisawesome

Yeah, I’d have to say that I’m with those who fundamentally disagree that Batman getting married would keep him from being Batman, whether from being “too happy” or being worried about abandoning her to a widowed life. Alfred and the “kids” didn’t keep him from going out and doing his thing.

Now, that’s not to say that Batman would by any means be guaranteed to remain married; honestly, everything about Bruce’s attitude, personality, flaws, and even his demographic features basically makes him a prime candidate for being a divorced superhero... and with Catwoman, possibly being an on-and-off-again spouse. :Stick Out Tongue: 

Honestly, King’s whole Bane idea probably would have worked better by having the wedding go off on its initial date, then having Bane exacerbate the underlying issues that would naturally develop over time to have Bruce’s heart get broken.

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## prepmaster

> Now, that’s not to say that Batman would by any means be guaranteed to remain married; honestly, everything about Bruce’s attitude, personality, flaws, and even his demographic features basically makes him a prime candidate for being a divorced superhero... and with Catwoman, possibly being an on-and-off-again spouse.


Bruce cant marry Selina. It would expose his secret identity since other Gotham rogues know Catwoman is Selina and Catwoman bangs Batman. Plot holes that writer ignored.



> the “kids” didn’t keep him from going out and doing his thing.


Because he was doing his thing, the kids became involved into his thing. The kids didnt have to be adopted by a crime fighter like him. One of the kids ended up brutally murdered by his arch nemesis and came back as a changed person. Yet he still wants a young sidekick (some of whom he regarded as his son) at his side to be targeted by his enemies. Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. The guy who became a crime fighter due to the trauma from having witnessed the murder of his parents by a thug is the same guy who would allow his son at a young age to be targeted by other criminals. The guy who suffers from the trauma of losing loved ones was risking the life of his own son at a young age. 

I dont know how people bring up Robin and still make it look like Bruce was being both a good father and a good crime fighter at the same time. Robin was not a realistic concept. Past stories were not grounded and people didnt put much thought into how Bruce should act as a character.

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## marhawkman

> I have to agree with what Agent Z said. Their entire organization is coded as terrorists in a way that white villains aren't.


I don't see that.  Ra's has a powerful organization in the League of Shadows... but it's not that different other than scale from other threats Batman has to deal with.

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## Agent Z

> Because it requires a lot of careful writing and excising of stuff, after which they might not even resemble themselves anymore anyway.


I don't think that's a bad thing. A lot of long-running characters are significantly different from their original depictions.

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## Godlike13

> Because he was doing his thing, the kids became involved into his thing. The kids didnt have to be adopted by a crime fighter like him. One of the kids ended up brutally murdered by his arch nemesis and came back as a changed person. Yet he still wants a young sidekick (some of whom he regarded as his son) at his side to be targeted by his enemies. Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. The guy who became a crime fighter due to the trauma from having witnessed the murder of his parents by a thug is the same guy who would allow his son at a young age to be targeted by other criminals. The guy who suffers from the trauma of losing loved ones was risking the life of his own son at a young age. 
> 
> I dont know how people bring up Robin and still make it look like Bruce was being both a good father and a good crime fighter at the same time. Robin was not a realistic concept. Past stories were not grounded and people didnt put much thought into how Bruce should act as a character.


He didn’t want another Robin after Jason, but was then hunted down and guilted into it under the shitty logic that he’s a bad person without a Robin. Dude can’t win either way. And I think your misunderstanding something. Becoming a crime fighter is how he came to cope with his trauma, and so by extension fighting crime is how he helped others cope with theirs. Agree with it or not, its what he knows. And what’s more it worked the first time with Dick. Which lead to a false sense that it would work again. Now of course it’s not realistic, but they are not in the business of realistic.

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## prepmaster

> He didn’t want another Robin after Jason, but was then hunted down and guilted into it under the shitty logic that he’s a bad person without a Robin. Dude can’t win either way. And I think your misunderstanding something. Becoming a crime fighter is how he came to cope with his trauma, and so by extension fighting crime is how he helped others cope with theirs. Agree with it or not, its what he knows. And what’s more it worked the first time with Dick. Which lead to a false sense that it would work again. Now of course it’s not realistic, but they are not in the business of realistic.


But i dont think Batman has ever been a crime fighter at child / teenage age. He trained himself to reach peak human's physical & mental conditions so that he could fight crime at his best capability. But when it comes to Robin, it looks like they were his gullible disposable underlings so Jason wasnt wrong even when he was depicted as a villain against Batman.

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## SiegePerilous02

> I don't think that's a bad thing. A lot of long-running characters are significantly different from their original depictions.


I think it's a case by case basis whether or not it's worth it for certain characters. Some can be naturally re-invented in a way that remains true to the spirit of the character. I imagine others can be so different that it might make sense to just create new characters and retire the old ones. 




> Because he was doing his thing, the kids became involved into his thing. The kids didnt have to be adopted by a crime fighter like him. One of the kids ended up brutally murdered by his arch nemesis and came back as a changed person. Yet he still wants a young sidekick (some of whom he regarded as his son) at his side to be targeted by his enemies. Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. The guy who became a crime fighter due to the trauma from having witnessed the murder of his parents by a thug is the same guy who would allow his son at a young age to be targeted by other criminals. The guy who suffers from the trauma of losing loved ones was risking the life of his own son at a young age. 
> 
> I dont know how people bring up Robin and still make it look like Bruce was being both a good father and a good crime fighter at the same time. Robin was not a realistic concept. Past stories were not grounded and people didnt put much thought into how Bruce should act as a character.


Batman isn't a realistic concept either. He'd be dead within a week.

It's not really fair to apply the baggage of current stuff to older comics. In the context of the older universe, Robin was a good idea that worked out as a good influence for Dick and Bruce was a good father/mentor., no ifs ands or buts. They DID put thought into how he should act as a character, it was just different because Frank Miller hadn't ruined him yet

I also think the Robin concept should have been retired altogether once Dick became Nightwing if they were going to transition Batman and his world to being darker. From a narrative perspective, they've tried to have it both ways and it's never really worked IMO. Especially when you add Jason dying. It makes him look incredibly ineffectual.

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## Tzigone

> Batman isn't a realistic concept either. He'd be dead within a week.
> 
> It's not really fair to apply the baggage of current stuff to older comics. In the context of the older universe, Robin was a good idea that worked out as a good influence for Dick and Bruce was a good father/mentor., no ifs ands or buts. They DID put thought into how he should act as a character, it was just different because Frank Miller hadn't ruined him yet


I absolutely agree. Including on Bruce dying quickly in the real world.

Is Robin realistic - no.  His explicit role is a kid who beats up adult criminals.  But Batman isn't realistic, either.  I'm willing to suspend disbelief on both of these because they're part of the genre I enjoy.




> I also think the Robin concept should have been retired altogether once Dick became Nightwing if they were going to transition Batman and his world to being darker. From a narrative perspective, they've tried to have it both ways and it's never really worked IMO. Especially when you add Jason dying. It makes him look incredibly ineffectual.


Yes, and besides making Jason look bad, it makes Bruce look like someone who should be prosecuted for endangering children.  Having it both ways doesn't really work. I know they tried to make excuses. First they gave Jason a darker past to say he had street smarts and it was more okay put him the role than an "innocent" kid.  The they cast all the blame for Jason's death on Jason and said Tim would be fine because he'd follow orders. And, of course, with Damian, they really upped the history with darkness and training so _this_ kid is okay.  I didn't actually read Duke's transition into the family from We Are Robin, so don't know what they used there.  Plus, older teens that the audience doesn't necessarily view as children may not need the same justifications. We've seen lots of excuses for why it's okay for Bruce to put these particular kids in the roles (and they'd all be dead otherwise or whatnot) when operating in a more "realistic" world, but frankly, I've never bought that any of them would be the best/appropriate way to deal with the issues they were facing.

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## prepmaster

> Batman isn't a realistic concept either. He'd be dead within a week.


Superheroes are meant to be superhumans. Usually they have powers as an in universe explaination for why they dont die easily. Batman just doesnt need powers. The bar of Batman's physical abilities is supposed to be that of Olympic level athletes but comics dont potray heroes with such limitations. Not mentioning random tech that he uses.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Superheroes are meant to be superhumans. Usually they have powers as an in universe explaination for why they dont die easily. Batman just doesnt need powers. The bar of Batman's physical abilities is supposed to be that of Olympic level athletes but comics dont potray heroes with such limitations. Not mentioning random tech that he uses.


That doesn't explain why Robin not being a realistic concept doesn't fit with Batman. If anything it just means they fit better together. Now Batman isn't meant to be grounded or realistic?

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## prepmaster

> That doesn't explain why Robin not being a realistic concept doesn't fit with Batman. If anything it just means they fit better together. Now Batman isn't meant to be grounded or realistic?


Batman didnt fight crime in his child/teenage years. Having Robin makes you question whether Batman is good father or just uses the kids as his underlings

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## SiegePerilous02

> Batman didnt fight crime in his child/teenage years. Having Robin makes you question whether Batman is good father or just uses the kids as his underlings


Actually in some pre-COIE stories, Bruce was Robin as a kid before Dick.

It doesn't have to be either/or depending on the context and era. We don't have to question whether or not Bruce was a good mentor in the older comics because he just was and it was presented as a good thing. Dick turned out fine. It's a little more muddy in the angst ridden and violent later eras, but we don't have to apply that to the whole history of the character and all versions of him. Robin and Batman are both unrealistic concepts and live in very fantastical setting that doesn't resemble ours.

If we're questioning if Batman is a terrible/irresponsible father figure (and there is now a lot of canon to back that up), the character was broken somewhere along the line.

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## Gaius

Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism amongst DC characters.

----------


## Tzigone

> Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism in superhero media.


Yesss...is that controversial?  I hadn't really thought about it until I read this, and I realized I'm really not sure.

----------


## Frontier

> Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism amongst DC characters.


Isn't that Swamp-Thing now?

----------


## prepmaster

> Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism amongst DC characters.


DC has bunch of eco villains. Ra's, Oceanmaster come to my mind. But because they are actually doing something, people see that they are at least attempting to solve the problems (but with the wrong solutions and ultimately for their own gain) while characters who are supposed to be eco heroes like Swamp Thing, Aquaman basically dont contribute change.

The enviromentalism aspect is supposed to make Ivy more of a sympathetic character but her enviromentalism is taken to the extreme without much regards to human lives.

----------


## Tzigone

> DC has bunch of eco villains. Ra's, Oceanmaster come to my mind. But because they are actually doing something, people see that they are at least attempting to solve the problems (but with the wrong solutions and for their own gain) while characters who are supposed to be eco heroes like Swamp Thing, Aquaman basically dont contribute change.


When did they supposedly become eco-heroes, anyway? I have pitifully little experience of Swamp Thing, but certainly there was nothing eco about Arthur for a huge portion of his history. I know, of course, it showed up in Smallville, but I don't really recall it ever having been a "thing" in any of the Aquaman comics I've read. I certainly have skipped entire eras, though, don't get me wrong, so I don't doubt it was a thing at one time. I'm just saying I would not have classified him that way, therefore would not saying he's failing at what he's supposed to be anymore than The Flash is failing by not being an eco hero.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism amongst DC characters.


It's the drawback of needing such a character, but she is by far the most popular and prolific so she gets the job.

even if it doesn't 100% make the most sense from a character perspective.

----------


## Frontier

> When did they supposedly become eco-heroes, anyway? I have pitifully little experience of Swamp Thing, but certainly there was nothing eco about Arthur for a huge portion of his history. I know, of course, it showed up in Smallville, but I don't really recall it ever having been a "thing" in any of the Aquaman comics I've read. I certainly have skipped entire eras, though, don't get me wrong, so I don't doubt it was a thing at one time. I'm just saying I would not have classified him that way, therefore would not saying he's failing at what he's supposed to be anymore than The Flash is failing by not being an eco hero.


I think Post-Crisis Aquaman addressed surface pollution of the seas either directly or just him off-handedly complaining about it.

----------


## Dr. Skeleton

Joker should die.

Cassandra Cain's a better Batgirl than Barbara

Batman and Zatanna should be romantically linked.

Batman should never have had a son.

----------


## prepmaster

> Joker should die.


How stupid DC would be to kill off their most profitable villain.

----------


## Gaius

> Joker should die.
> 
> Cassandra Cain's a better Batgirl than Barbara
> 
> Batman and Zatanna should be romantically linked.
> 
> Batman should never have had a son.


Would have to go the opposite on the Zatanna one. I'll also extend it to that Bat-writers need to stop making female characters created independent of Batman his arm candy/love interests. He has plenty enough on his own between Selina, Talia,  Vikki Vale, Andrea, and the various other minor ones for writers to use.

----------


## Tzigone

> Would have to go the opposite on the Zatanna one. I'll also extend it to that Bat-writers need to stop making female characters created independent of Batman his arm candy/love interests. He has plenty enough on his own between Selina, Talia,  Vikki Vale, Andrea, and the various other minor ones for writers to use.


I very strongly agree.  Not that independently created heroes can't date, but it's always going to be very lopsided with Batman. Plus, I admit to having rather negative feelings about Batman/Zatanna due to DCAU, which I felt like had the "your girlfriend would rather be screwing Batman" vibe to some other male heroes with a "women want to be with him" thing in regards to the single women. Also I'm not really of fan of Zatanna going for the messed up guys, bad boys, or trying to pursue relationships that will never work out.

----------


## Gaius

> I very strongly agree.  Not that independently created heroes can't date, but it's always going to be very lopsided with Batman. Plus, I admit to having rather negative feelings about Batman/Zatanna due to DCAU, which I felt like had the "your girlfriend would rather be screwing Batman" vibe to some other male heroes with a "women want to be with him" thing in regards to the single women. Also I'm not really of fan of Zatanna going for the messed up guys, bad boys, or trying to pursue relationships that will never work out.


Yep, these romances are always lopsided in Bruce's favor where they go head-over-heels for him but he barely gives them the similar amount of attention. Speaks volumes the biggest legacy the DCAU had on the biggest female superhero of DC is making her go gaga for Bruce.

----------


## Frontier

I think Bruce and Zee are really cute together, so that's about it for me  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Mutant God

I think Adeline Kane should be connected to the Kane Family, maybe Martha and Jacobs cousin, so her son Jericho have a family connection to the Bat Family and picturing her ex-husband Slade Wilson at a family reunion with Batman makes me laugh.

----------


## marhawkman

> I very strongly agree.  Not that independently created heroes can't date, but it's always going to be very lopsided with Batman. Plus, I admit to having rather negative feelings about Batman/Zatanna due to DCAU, which I felt like had the "your girlfriend would rather be screwing Batman" vibe to some other male heroes with a "women want to be with him" thing in regards to the single women. Also I'm not really of fan of Zatanna going for the messed up guys, bad boys, or trying to pursue relationships that will never work out.


This made me think of something I"D like to see.  In the Batman vs Dracula animated movie Dracula is planning to turn Vicki into his new queen of the undead...  The idea is what if he succeeds?  Could Batman get stuck with a vampire girlfriend?  Mmm Vicki Vale... vampire journalist is also amusing.  :Big Grin:

----------


## witchboy

The thing with trying to do a romance with Wonder Woman or Zatanna, is that beyond the odd guest appearance, it can't work just for logistic reasons. If the relationship gets serious then they're going to be in his books all the time, which they don't fit into the street level stories that most of Batman comics are about, and they realistically outpower him. There's no way he can be overshadowed in his own book. 
You could do a "Wonder Woman and Batman" book much like the Superman and Wonder Woman book, but it still should have too much impact in all his books.

----------


## prepmaster

> The thing with trying to do a romance with Wonder Woman or Zatanna, is that beyond the odd guest appearance, it can't work just for logistic reasons. If the relationship gets serious then they're going to be in his books all the time, which they don't fit into the street level stories that most of Batman comics are about, and they realistically outpower him. There's no way he can be overshadowed in his own book. 
> You could do a "Wonder Woman and Batman" book much like the Superman and Wonder Woman book, but it still should have too much impact in all his books.


Batman already has like his Bat & Tec books and then him being in team books with JL or with Supes. All these 4 books dont really correlate with each other much. Then you would have books that use Batman's name to draw more sales like Batman & the Outsiders, Batman & Catwoman, etc... In the end, what really matters are the 2 mainline books. Like for example, when writers from Harley books use Batman's characters, the potrayal of those characters in Harley books are not considered to be the cannon and the status of those characters cant be changed in Harley's books.

----------


## John Venus

I always thought the Batman/Zatanna romance/fling was handled well, especially since Dini used it to _add_ to both characters instead of taking something away from them.  He used the relationship to establish that the Zatara's weren't just magicians but were talented in escape artistry and sleight-of-hand, enough so that even a young Bruce Wayne would be intrigued enough to learn from them. It established that Bruce trained with other classic characters in the DCU (outside of his own title) and later Ted Grant would be added to them. There was some attraction between the two but he turns her down and she moves on with no muss no fuss to her own ongoing where Batman is hardly mentioned and Bruce goes on to confess and later partner with Selina. I'm mixing up DCAU and Dini's 'Tec but they are very similar anyway. Overall, unlike Bruce/Lois and Bruce/WW which mostly served to prop up Batman, I always thought Bruce/Zee was handled in a mutually beneficial way.  Now, if only we can keep writers from including mind wipes in their stories.   

I also like how Dini used the connection between Thomas and John Zatara to explore the corrupt upper class of Gotham and give us an impression of who Thomas Wayne was before he married Martha, making him flawed without villainizing him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The thing with trying to do a romance with Wonder Woman or Zatanna, is that beyond the odd guest appearance, it can't work just for logistic reasons. If the relationship gets serious then they're going to be in his books all the time, which they don't fit into the street level stories that most of Batman comics are about, and they realistically outpower him. There's no way he can be overshadowed in his own book. 
> You could do a "Wonder Woman and Batman" book much like the Superman and Wonder Woman book, but it still should have too much impact in all his books.





> Batman already has like his Bat & Tec books and then him being in team books with JL or with Supes. All these 4 books dont really correlate with each other much. Then you would have books that use Batman's name to draw more sales like Batman & the Outsiders, Batman & Catwoman, etc... In the end, what really matters are the 2 mainline books. Like for example, when writers from Harley books use Batman's characters, the potrayal of those characters in Harley books are not considered to be the cannon and the status of those characters cant be changed in Harley's books.


So I guess what would happen if Bruce romance Wondy or Zatanna is they're gonna publish a WonderBat or Batanna book, while the regular Batman and Detective Comics they'll only appear as cameos while 99% of the book focuses on Bruce in Gotham while the waifus are around the world saving people or in the House of Mystery

----------


## Gaius

> The thing with trying to do a romance with Wonder Woman or Zatanna, is that beyond the odd guest appearance, it can't work just for logistic reasons. If the relationship gets serious then they're going to be in his books all the time, which they don't fit into the street level stories that most of Batman comics are about, and they realistically outpower him. There's no way he can be overshadowed in his own book. 
> You could do a "Wonder Woman and Batman" book much like the Superman and Wonder Woman book, but it still should have too much impact in all his books.


Yep, no need to put a character like Wonder Woman's world/mythos on hold so she can be stuck in Gotham just so Bat-writers can give another reason to stroke Bruce's ego. And even that Superman/Wonder Woman book just turned into another Superman book.

----------


## Gaius

Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".

You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.

This goes for his girlfriend as well.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".
> 
> You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.
> 
> This goes for his girlfriend as well.


Pretty dead on.

I think a component that is missing from modern Joker is just that he's not funny. The best Joker writers can make him genuinely funny in a disarming way, and without that, he's just a nothing character doing blandly "shocking" things. 

One of the best things about BTAS being on a kids network was that the censorship forced the creators to leave the Joker's worst actions to implication and let his on screen actions be outside the box and clever. And when he had clearer murderous intentions he'd at least be thwarted.

----------


## Tzigone

> I think a component that is missing from modern Joker is just that he's not funny. The best Joker writers can make him genuinely funny in a disarming way, and without that, he's just a nothing character doing blandly "shocking" things.


I know I'm in the minority, but I still prefer the earliest Joker: theatrical, a great planner, completely sane, but not in the least funny.

----------


## John Venus

> Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".
> 
> You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.
> 
> This goes for his girlfriend as well.


Yep, if I'm reading a Joker book and I immediately find myself going 'yep that guy is going to die horribly' then the character is neither unpredictable, funny nor is it an engaging story because somebody died horribly in it.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

Cassandra and Stephanie aren’t in the same league with Babs as Batgirl. The Batgirl role isn’t that of a side-kick’s, it’s a statement: it stands for independence and defiance against adversity. It’s about being underestimated and triumphing because of those assumptions: all Cass and Steph bring to the role is that of a side-kick. A soldier in Cass’ case. 

Barbara as Batgirl represented a true people’s hero: someone who’s known tragedy and given her life to ensure that no-one should ever suffer that way again. Her sense of empathy is what drives her and her iron-will shines brightest as Batgirl because, with half the tech but twice the brain, she really showcases how important it is to -never- give up.

Steph and Cass aren’t so compelling because they can operate the same way and have the same stories under any name.

----------


## Tzigone

> Cassandra and Stephanie aren’t in the same league with Babs as Batgirl. The Batgirl role isn’t that of a side-kick’s, it’s a statement: it stands for independence and defiance against adversity. It’s about being underestimated and triumphing because of those assumptions: all Cass and Steph bring to the role is that of a side-kick. A soldier in Cass’ case.


I don't get that at all. I do hate sidekick (or even protege) Batgirl, but that was retconned onto Babs before Steph even became Batgirl, and in first era as Batgirl Steph overcame far more adversity than Barbara in her first era as Batgirl (who overcame none at all at that time, which fine, because I still liked her).  Mind you, I dislike Steph as Batgirl, and much prefer her as Spoiler for independence and not bowing to Batman's wishes.  I just don't see those as "Batgirl" things at all. And while I do like Barbara becoming unparalyzed she should be in her 30s and not go back to the title of Batgirl.




> Barbara as Batgirl represented a true people’s hero: someone who’s known tragedy and given her life to ensure that no-one should ever suffer that way again. Her sense of empathy is what drives her and her iron-will shines brightest as Batgirl because, with half the tech but twice the brain, she really showcases how important it is to -never- give up.


I don't agree with that, either. Then again, my favorite era of Barbara as Bagirl was the 1970s, when those factors didn't apply and before the character was given a new personality for New 52.  Mind you, she'd gone through some personality changes by then (that's just the era I like), but New 52 and most of post-COIE Barbara Gordon are just completely different characters.

I'm not a fan of legacies.  I really dislike Steph giving up her own identity to take orders from Barbara and her being accepted by the Batfam (many of whom previously treated her like crap) being treated as her graduation to the big leagues is hardly a sentiment I support.  But she and Cass do not fail to live up to some "Batgirl standard" to me.  And Barbara going back to it isn't a triumph to me. I'd much rather not give up the name she made her own to take on a sub-title of Bruce's again, especially one with "girl" in the title, which doesn't work for me for grown women (didn't even like an 18 year old Steph choosing it or Gar going back to a title with "Boy" in it).  And I think not wearing someone else's emblem on her chest is better for making her be perceived as independent.

I want Barbara working in the streets and kicking butt, because she wants it, and because here is nothing she can do paralyzed that she can't do without being paralyzed and because I hate story that put her in that wheelchair (though others made a silk purse out of a sow's ear), and because of the double standard of when the male Bats got injured that way, they got healed.  But I don't want her called Batgirl again.  Frankly, I'd also prefer her not working in the vicinity of Gotham. I dislike her being retconned to a Batman protege, and much preferred her running the BoP to being Batman or the JL's tech person.  Also, didn't like the reveal Bruce funded her.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I don't get that at all. I do hate sidekick (or even protege) Batgirl, but that was retconned onto Babs before Steph even became Batgirl, and in first era as Batgirl Steph overcame far more adversity than Barbara (who overcame none at all).  Mind you, I dislike Steph as Batgirl, and much prefer her as Spoiler for independence and not bowing to Batman's wishes.  I just don't see those as "Batgirl" things at all. And while I do like Barbara becoming unparalyzed she should be in her 30s and not go back to the title of Batgirl.
> 
> I don't agree with that, either. Then again, my favorite era of Barbara as Bagirl was the 1970s, when those factors didn't apply and before the character was given a new personality for New 52.  Mind you, she'd gone through some personality changes by then (that's just the era I like), but New 52 and most of post-COIE Barbara Gordon are just completely different characters.


Completely disagree with everything you said.

----------


## Tzigone

> Completely disagree with everything you said.


It's the fun part of controversial opinions.   :Cool:

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> It's the fun part of controversial opinions.


Exactly, so back off your high horse and stop trying to prove yourself right.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

Also: if there’s gonna be three Batgirls? Then the league of Nightwings need reviving and Dick needs to be shoved off onto the sidelines. Sorry Dick, you’re just one of a quota of masks now: your approach and value mean NOTHING.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I feel like Barbara not knowing tragedy and becoming an effective crime fighter anyway made her distinct from Bruce and Dick. I feel like if we're adding tragedy in her motivation and role as Batgirl, something is being done wrong. 





> Also: if there’s gonna be three Batgirls? Then the league of Nightwings need reviving and Dick needs to be shoved off onto the sidelines. Sorry Dick, you’re just one of a quota of masks now: your approach and value mean NOTHING.


That pretty much happens to Dick already. The Robins step on each others toes as much as the Batgirls.

That is inevitably going to happen. Back in Barbara's heyday as Batgirl she was one of three regular crime fighters in Gotham with Dick and Bruce. Now, she's one of like what, 15-20? Including two other Batgirls, so of course the old approach to her as Batgirl isn't going to stand out anymore. It's why Nightwing doesn't either, he frequently struggles with being Batman-lite but can't go back to being Robin. it's why a bloated Bat-cast is pretty bad, but they also have a lot of value to different fans.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I feel like Barbara not knowing tragedy and becoming an effective crime fighter anyway made her distinct from Bruce and Dick. I feel like if we're adding tragedy in her motivation and role as Batgirl, something is being done wrong. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That pretty much happens to Dick already. The Robins step on each others toes as much as the Batgirls.
> 
> That is inevitably going to happen. Back in Barbara's heyday as Batgirl she was one of three regular crime fighters in Gotham with Dick and Bruce. Now, she's one of like what, 15-20? Including two other Batgirls, so of course the old approach to her as Batgirl isn't going to stand out anymore. It's why Nightwing doesn't either, he frequently struggles with being Batman-lite but can't go back to being Robin. it's why a bloated Bat-cast is pretty bad, but they also have a lot of value to different fans.




Except the Nightwings got killed off and the narrative went out of its’ way to justify why there can only be one and only forever and ever. It was equally celebrated by fans. Those SAME fans who devalue Batgirl in such a way. It’s the fact that DC is so keen to give in to such nonsense rather than making an actual effort to DIFFERENTIATE every character and their approach that’s BS. 

Her approach as Batgirl absolutely can stand out, because as you said: if Nightwing can get get away with it then Batgirl absolutely should be afforded that same luxury

----------


## Tzigone

> Exactly, so back off your high horse and stop trying to prove yourself ‘right.’


I don't think I have a high horse - I was sharing my opinion, just like you did yours.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Except the Nightwings got killed off and the narrative went out of its’ way to justify why there can only be one and only forever and ever. It was equally celebrated by fans. Those SAME fans who devalue Batgirl in such a way. It’s the fact that DC is so keen to give in to such nonsense rather than making an actual effort to DIFFERENTIATE every character and their approach that’s BS. 
> 
> Her approach as Batgirl absolutely can stand out, because as you said: if Nightwing can get get away with it then Batgirl absolutely should be afforded that same luxury


The other Nightwings were non-entities and part of the reviled "Ric" storyline. In contrast, Steph and Cass are fan favorite characters (Cass being the first Batgirl to hold down a solo comic) and Barbara's time as Oracle is very well loved by a lot of people. Batgirl can't be afforded the exact same luxury because that isn't a remotely similar situation.

Oracle is her equivalent to the Nightwing identity, not Batgirl. It's her "graduation." YMMV on if you think that's fair or not, but that's generally how it is. Despite loving a lot of Oracle stuff, my preference is for her to be Batgirl. But it's not like we've had a lot of stand out stuff in comparison since she became Batgirl again, so it's hard to really justify it beyond a preference and nostalgia for old stuff at this point 




> *I don't think I have a high horse* - I was sharing my opinion, just like you did yours.


You definitely don't

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> The other Nightwings were non-entities and part of the reviled "Ric" storyline. In contrast, Steph and Cass are fan favorite characters (Cass being the first Batgirl to hold down a solo comic) and Barbara's time as Oracle is very well loved by a lot of people. Batgirl can't be afforded the exact same luxury because that isn't a remotely similar situation.
> 
> Oracle is her equivalent to the Nightwing identity, not Batgirl. It's her "graduation." YMMV on if you think that's fair or not, but that's generally how it is. Despite loving a lot of Oracle stuff, my preference is for her to be Batgirl. But it's not like we've had a lot of stand out stuff in comparison since she became Batgirl again, so it's hard to really justify it beyond a preference and nostalgia for old stuff at this point


That is absolutely disingenuous and you know it: if Ric can survive for years and years and be utterly reviled, only to snap back to the -exact- same approach that he was operating under before, Babs as Batgirl absolutely can too and be just as adored for it. All Babs needs is someone to invest in an actual -story- for her that editorial won’t say “Save for Batman.” The only reason Steph and Cass even got off the ground is because of what -Barbara- brought to Batgirl, how -she- built it up. They can do the exact same thing under ANY name, but Babs can’t. She’s either making a name for herself or shunted behind the scenes acting as exposition for everyone else.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I don't think I have a high horse - I was sharing my opinion, just like you did yours.


You were. I shared an opinion: you went out of your way to prove yourself right. Back off.

----------


## km_sus

Someone shat in your cheerios this morning...

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Someone shat in your cheerios this morning...


Just sick of all the hypocrisy in this place. About time to start giving a little back of what I’ve been getting here.

----------


## km_sus

> Just sick of all the hypocrisy in this place. About time to start giving a little back of what I’ve been getting here.


You wouldn't happen to be someone who posts a lot in /co/ a lot, would you?

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> You wouldn't happen to be someone who posts a lot in /co/ a lot, would you?


What’s that? A Reddit thing?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> That is absolutely disingenuous and you know it: if Ric can survive for years and years and be utterly reviled, only to snap back to the -exact- same approach that he was operating under before, Babs as Batgirl absolutely can too and be just as adored for it. All Babs needs is someone to invest in an actual -story- for her that editorial won’t say “Save for Batman.” The only reason Steph and Cass even got off the ground is because of what -Barbara- brought to Batgirl, how -she- built it up. They can do the exact same thing under ANY name, but Babs can’t. She’s either making a name for herself or *shunted behind the scenes acting as exposition for everyone else*.


The key difference is that Ric was reviled and Oracle and her legacies were not. Plus Oracle lasted significantly longer. And I think the bolded is selling Oracle very short. She arguably stood out more than Nightwing does when he has to share space with Batman, Red Hood, Red Robin and Robin

Cass in particular did not get off the ground _only_ because of what Barbara brought as Batgirl; it being a popular mantle, especially the renewed popularity due to Barbara in the DCAU, certainly helped, but to say it's the only reason is being seriously disingenuous yourself. There's not a doubt in my mind that Babs as Batgirl could have sustained an ongoing due to the strength of the Bat-brand at that time and with the right writer to highlight her strengths as a character, but it's up in the air if it would have been more or less successful than what they had with Cass at the time. And if we're giving Barbara as Batgirl points for her perseverance and not giving up, why are we not giving points to her as Oracle and Cass? Both are effective heroes despite having disabilities. 

I say all this as someone who isn't overly attached to Cass or Steph and thinks of Babs as Batgirl first and Oracle a distant second

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> The key difference is that Ric was reviled and Oracle and her legacies were not. Plus Oracle lasted significantly longer. And I think the bolded is selling Oracle very short. She arguably stood out more than Nightwing does when he has to share space with Batman, Red Hood, Red Robin and Robin
> 
> Cass in particular did not get off the ground _only_ because of what Barbara brought as Batgirl; it being a popular mantle, especially the renewed popularity due to Barbara in the DCAU, certainly helped, but to say it's the only reason is being seriously disingenuous yourself. There's not a doubt in my mind that Babs as Batgirl could have sustained an ongoing due to the strength of the Bat-brand at that time and with the right writer to highlight her strengths as a character, but it's up in the air if it would have been more or less successful than what they had with Cass at the time. And if we're giving Barbara as Batgirl points for her perseverance and not giving up, why are we not giving points to her as Oracle and Cass? Both are effective heroes despite having disabilities. 
> 
> I say all this as someone who isn't overly attached to Cass or Steph and thinks of Babs as Batgirl first and Oracle a distant second


It’s still a double standard: Nightwing gets to stagnate forever, Oracle acts as nothing but tech support (and I speak as a disabled person as I say this who is sick and tired of the narrative that we’re ‘valuable’ indoors just because the world isn’t accessible) yet any mistakes Babs made as Batgirl were dissected with a fine-tooth comb while Cass and Steph would have easily gotten passes for it from their fans. For ten years.

Barbara Gordon can absolutely be a paralysed Batgirl; she shouldn’t have to give it over to two characters who can do the -exact same work- they do under any name and costume.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It’s still a double standard: Nightwing gets to stagnate forever, Oracle acts as nothing but tech support (and I speak as a disabled person as I say this who is sick and tired of the narrative that we’re ‘valuable’ indoors just because the world isn’t accessible) yet any mistakes Babs made as Batgirl were dissected with a fine-tooth comb while Cass and Steph would have easily gotten passes for it from their fans. For ten years.
> 
> Barbara Gordon can absolutely be a paralysed Batgirl; she shouldn’t have to give it over to two characters who can do the -exact same work- they do under any name and costume.


So if Nightwing can stagnate forever, you want Batgirl to stagnate forever as well? Neither scenario sounds great

Her mistakes were dissected because DC continuity is weird and they wanted to have it both ways where it is a fresh young universe but also had the baggage of stuff like TKJ and apparently some time as Oracle. We are well past the point where Barbara should be a rookie, regardless of what moniker she's going under. And 10 years later we still have not gotten a run that is as great Simone's time on BOP, so we lost some great runs in continuity and two other fan favorite characters for one character who isn't getting great stories compared to what she can have (as either Batgirl or Oracle). There isn't really a net positive for their decision to make her Batgirl again at the point they did and the way they did it. You can't put the cat back in the bag again when all this other stuff has accumulated.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> So if Nightwing can stagnate forever, you want Batgirl to stagnate forever as well? Neither scenario sounds great
> 
> Her mistakes were dissected because DC continuity is weird and they wanted to have it both ways where it is a fresh young universe but also had the baggage of stuff like TKJ and apparently some time as Oracle. We are well past the point where Barbara should be a rookie, regardless of what moniker she's going under. And 10 years later we still have not gotten a run that is as great Simone's time on BOP, so we lost some great runs in continuity and two other fan favorite characters for one character who isn't getting great stories compared to what she can have (as either Batgirl or Oracle). There isn't really a net positive for their decision to make her Batgirl again at the point they did and the way they did it. You can't put the cat back in the bag again when all this other stuff has accumulated.


Well it’s worked for Nightwing, hasn’t it?

And subjective opinion is subjective: as far as I’m concerned, Burnside and Maighread Scott’s run were up to par with Simone, the latter of which even managing to reconcile Babs ‘insisting she’s recovered’ with her actual recovery, albeit without the awesome Frankie Charles, another disabled woman. And here’s the thing: Batgirl isn’t a side-kick role, never was. She isn’t a rookie as Batgirl, it’s simply her identity: one that criminals underestimate her for and with what she can use as an advantage. She was inspired by Batman but never ‘under’ him until 90’s retcons.

Steph and Cass can easily work with Babs in the -exact- same way without being Batgirl, but Babs never gets that luxury or opportunity. The lads can flail around for decades, but one mistake from Babs? Well that’s just inexcusable.

----------


## km_sus

> Well it’s worked for Nightwing, hasn’t it?
> 
> And subjective opinion is subjective: as far as I’m concerned, Burnside and Maighread Scott’s run were up to par with Simone, the latter of which even managing to reconcile Babs ‘insisting she’s recovered’ with her actual recovery, albeit without the awesome Frankie Charles, another disabled woman. And here’s the thing: Batgirl isn’t a side-kick role, never was. She isn’t a rookie as Batgirl, it’s simply her identity: one that criminals underestimate her for and with what she can use as an advantage. She was inspired by Batman but never ‘under’ him until 90’s retcons.
> 
> Steph and Cass can easily work with Babs in the -exact- same way without being Batgirl, but Babs never gets that luxury or opportunity. The lads can flail around for decades, but one mistake from Babs? Well that’s just inexcusable.


I think the reason Barbara is looked upon with more scrutiny is because when she went from Oracle back to Batgirl, she not only stepped on Stephanie and Cassandra's characters (to the point they were retconned out of existence) but upon her own characterisation and development, since Barbara had actually spent more time as Oracle than as Batgirl by 2011. When they pulled off their controversial move, most were probably expecting a Green Lantern Rebirth type epic - a story that justified retconning fan favorites out and seemingly "curing" Barbara's paralysation. What we got from Simone was good, but the rest of Barbara's last decade has been controversial from a story quality perspective. 

It's not just the story readers are evaluating, but wether her being Batgirl was worth destroying everything else that came before it.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I think the reason Barbara is looked upon with more scrutiny is because when she went from Oracle back to Batgirl, she not only stepped on Stephanie and Cassandra's characters (to the point they were retconned out of existence) but upon her own characterisation and development, since Barbara had actually spent more time as Oracle than as Batgirl by 2011. When they pulled off their controversial move, most were probably expecting a Green Lantern Rebirth type epic - a story that justified retconning fan favorites out and seemingly "curing" Barbara's paralysation. What we got from Simone was good, but the rest of Barbara's last decade has been controversial from a story quality perspective. 
> 
> It's not just the story readers are evaluating, but wether her being Batgirl was worth destroying everything else that came before it.


Well the solution certainly isn’t to destroy Barbara’s Batgirl: Cass and Steph should’ve have been erased, but now they’re being treated more disposable than ever with the way Tynion’s writing them. Steph quips and Cass punches; he makes it out like Batgirl is a costume when there is a reason we love these characters.

That said, Cass and Steph’s approach hasn’t changed since their name change, other than they seem to be told what to do more. They can do what they do under any name and costume: Babs doesn’t get that, disabled or able-bodied, it seems.

----------


## Godlike13

> The key difference is that Ric was reviled and Oracle and her legacies were not. Plus Oracle lasted significantly longer. And I think the bolded is selling Oracle very short. She arguably stood out more than Nightwing does when he has to share space with Batman, Red Hood, Red Robin and Robin
> 
> Cass in particular did not get off the ground _only_ because of what Barbara brought as Batgirl; it being a popular mantle, especially the renewed popularity due to Barbara in the DCAU, certainly helped, but to say it's the only reason is being seriously disingenuous yourself. There's not a doubt in my mind that Babs as Batgirl could have sustained an ongoing due to the strength of the Bat-brand at that time and with the right writer to highlight her strengths as a character, but it's up in the air if it would have been more or less successful than what they had with Cass at the time. And if we're giving Barbara as Batgirl points for her perseverance and not giving up, why are we not giving points to her as Oracle and Cass? Both are effective heroes despite having disabilities. 
> 
> I say all this as someone who isn't overly attached to Cass or Steph and thinks of Babs as Batgirl first and Oracle a distant second


Its actually not that up in the air. Batgirl Year One is probably one of the most successful Batgirl stories to this day. 




> I think the reason Barbara is looked upon with more scrutiny is because when she went from Oracle back to Batgirl, she not only stepped on Stephanie and Cassandra's characters (to the point they were retconned out of existence) but upon her own characterisation and development, since Barbara had actually spent more time as Oracle than as Batgirl by 2011. When they pulled off their controversial move, most were probably expecting a Green Lantern Rebirth type epic - a story that justified retconning fan favorites out and seemingly "curing" Barbara's paralysation. What we got from Simone was good, but the rest of Barbara's last decade has been controversial from a story quality perspective. 
> 
> It's not just the story readers are evaluating, but wether her being Batgirl was worth destroying everything else that came before it.


Thing is she didn't actually do any of the that, the new 52 did, but the fact she get blamed for that i thinks shows a lot of the true motivation behind a lot of the scrutiny.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Its actually not that up in the air. Batgirl Year One is probably one of the most successful Batgirl stories to this day. 
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is she didn't actually do any of the that, the new 52 did, but the fact she get blamed for that i thinks shows a lot of the true motivation behind a lot of the scrutiny.


-Exactly- 

Cass and Steph shouldn’t have been erased, but even if they -were- there then it never would have been good enough. Just like how when they came back and had their own identities: nope, just not good enough. Well what are they actually doing now that’s any better to Babs or more revolutionary? Punching and talking? Why! The Genius!

----------


## km_sus

Most readers and fans don't have these kinds of intense discussions when deciding if they like something.

For most people it's:
Barbara as Oracle stories = great
Barbara as Batgirl stories = middling

The same logic applies for Cass and Steph:
Cass/Batgirl = Great
Cass/Orphan = average

Steph/Batgirl = Great
Steph/Spoiler = okay

It's simple logic for most people. Barbara had Batgirl for ten years and didn't do anything spectacular with it. I don't like going back to Oracle either, but at least we have proven results with that mantle. People push for Cass and Steph because their potential for stories in the role far exceeds Barbara's. Look at her overall run as Batgirl - bar Simone, it's nothing we hadn't already seen back in the bronze age.

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## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Most readers and fans don't have these kinds of intense discussions when deciding if they like something.
> 
> For most people it's:
> Barbara as Oracle stories = great
> Barbara as Batgirl stories = middling
> 
> The same logic applies for Cass and Steph:
> Cass/Batgirl = Great
> Cass/Orphan = average
> ...


Excuse me? Oversimplification much?

In the ten years of Batgirl they were able to push the technological side to make her an on-the-go cyber detective. The only thing that got in her way was editorial shutting down any revolutionary pitches that the writers had, scalping it for Batman himself. 

Tell me: what -exactly- can be done with Cass and Steph that hasnt already been done? How many times can we re-tread Cassandra doesnt feel worthy of the Bat symbol! Or Stephanie facing her father? What can be done that hasnt been already done, and if there is nothing then why is it so awful for Babs not be afforded the same luxury?

Also: why does the name matter? They literally do the same thing no matter what monicker theyre under. Babs doesnt, but what she does do as Batgirl certainly isnt any worse than Cass or Steph, in fact its more intriguing.

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## Godlike13

> Most readers and fans don't have these kinds of intense discussions when deciding if they like something.
> 
> For most people it's:
> Barbara as Oracle stories = great
> Barbara as Batgirl stories = middling
> 
> The same logic applies for Cass and Steph:
> Cass/Batgirl = Great
> Cass/Orphan = average
> ...


That might be how it for you but what data is there that supports this is the case for everyone else. Cass and Steph fans might look back on their runs with rose colored glasses but their stories weren't general hits. Batgirl Year One is probably the most generally acclaimed and successful Batgirl story, while Simone's and the Burnside runs will probably stand with or exceed their runs. People push for Cass or Steph because that is their preferred Batgirl. The thing thats interesting is that Babs managed even without Batgirl, not necessarily as successfully, but Oracle has successes. Where with Orphan and Spoiler, well...

----------


## Frontier

I think Steph and Cass' run hold up better than Simone and Burnside (which just seems like it was riffing off Steph anyways), but that probably comes down to personal taste. I don't think the Simone run is viewed very fondly overall or as Simone's strongest work with Babs. 

Granted, it's not like DC pushed Steph and Cass very hard in their own identities beyond putting them in team books.

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## godisawesome

I would actually argue that, from my perspective, Cass tells a _dramatically_ different type of storytelling in style than Babs does - some of the friction there comes from how differently they appeal to audiences. I *am* a dude, and frankly, there have been times where I felt like Cass’s Batgril book was more immodestly appealing to my demographic because of the action-heavy nature of her storytelling and the more “universal” nature of her “gimmick” as a someone who understands body language better than dialogue. That *is* something I regard as beyond Babs’s reach... just in the way that an extremely intricate and detailed narrative is out of Cass’s reach.

With Steph... I think the schism forms more bluntly from the fact that Steph was an “accidental success” compared to Babs having been considered as an “intended superstar”, and the simple needless drama that the New 52 unleashed in the fanbase. In an accidental way, it makes the character’s meta-narrative bleed into her textual narrative, something that I think Babs only occasionally achieves because of different creative directions.

Babs also doesn’t necessarily have bad solos, but rather ones that *had* a chance to unite the fanbase and maximize the appeal of her return to action... but wound up aggravating wounds and arguably making her less appealing to naysayers in a _needless_ way. *Nothing* was gained from making Steph and Cass _verboten_, or from trying to make Babs a “street level” fighter without her Oracle abilities, or from pursuing some vague, ethereal “status quo” she needs to hold exclusively. Her return _was_ a success... but it feels like a weird combination of some good “pushes”, strong creative talent, and a fervent fanbase with a _lot_ of unforced errors regarding her successors, abilities, and place in the family.

It left the door wide open for feeling (rightly or wrongly) like Babs’s modern appeals still mainly rooted in nostalgia, and to a degree beyond Steph and Cass... a feeling that might be remedied by letting them share the mantle in publishing for a while, not as a permanent status quo, but to try and create a similar goodwill that many Robin fans have.

(Don’t get me wrong; there’s still tensions between Robin fans, but there’s a reason everyone loves Dick Grayson and usually at least one or two other Robins even if they dislike one for various reasons. DC accidentally created a scenario where it seemed like if you supported one Batgirl, or was at the expense of the others - which is _not_ good.)

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Its actually not that up in the air. Batgirl Year One is probably one of the most successful Batgirl stories to this day.


That's a stand alone mini series, not an ongoing. I don't know if that would make for a good comparison with Cass's sustaining an ongoing series for 73 issues back in a period where comics were slightly more available than what they are now. Babs's series haven't made it much beyond 50 before needing to be rebooted, and now she's just Nightwing's supporting character. 

And again, I think if Barbara as Batgirl got an ongoing series at that time or a bit earlier, she'd move units. We just can't know for sure how it would compare to Cass's though because it didn't happen. 




> That might be how it for you but what data is there that supports this is the case for everyone else. Cass and Steph fans might look back on their runs with rose colored glasses but their stories weren't general hits. Batgirl Year One is probably the most generally acclaimed and successful Batgirl story, while Simone's and the Burnside runs will probably stand with or exceed their runs. People push for Cass or Steph because that is their preferred Batgirl. The thing thats interesting is that Babs managed even without Batgirl, not necessarily as successfully, but Oracle has successes. Where with Orphan and Spoiler, well...


Are you sure you aren't looking at Babs's runs with rose colored glasses? Because while Year One was great (probably one of the few Dixon comics I like), what I've read from Simone and (ugh) Burnside weren't terribly memorable. Doesn't help that the latter had Barbara looking like a teenage girl in a dumb costume. The best she's _looked_ in recent years is 3 Jokers, and that had the misfortune of continuing the tradition of her being "The Girl" and passing her to Jason cuz it was his turn now I guess. 

I'd say the earlier Cass issues (roughly the first 30 issues or so) and even Steph's run were better not just for the two leads but also for how Barbara was written as well. I _want_ some great Babs as Batgirl content (preferably a stand alone, continuity light one where she doesn't look like she's 14), but personally the stuff they've been producing for her is less than stellar and even the other Batgirls who I'm less fond of have better content in comparison.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I think Steph and Cass' run hold up better than Simone and Burnside (which just seems like it was riffing off Steph anyways), but that probably comes down to personal taste. I don't think the Simone run is viewed very fondly overall or as Simone's strongest work with Babs. 
> 
> Granted, it's not like DC pushed Steph and Cass very hard in their own identities beyond putting them in team books.


Babs didn’t rip off Steph. Steph wouldn’t have had a run focussing on tech start up groups, Steph wouldn’t have had a story relating to recovering from PTSD and trying to ‘be’ recovered without realising what recovery means. Steph wouldn’t have worked in using social media to predict crime and behaviour. Burnside isn’t Steph, it’s for Babs all the way.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> That's a stand alone mini series, not an ongoing. I don't know if that would make for a good comparison with Cass's sustaining an ongoing series for 73 issues back in a period where comics were slightly more available than what they are now. Babs's series haven't made it much beyond 50 before needing to be rebooted, and now she's just Nightwing's supporting character. 
> 
> And again, I think if Barbara as Batgirl got an ongoing series at that time or a bit earlier, she'd move units. We just can't know for sure how it would compare to Cass's though because it didn't happen. 
> 
> In fact: Burnside has already proved to have lasting impact -outside- of the comics: Harley Quinn’s tv show has utilised that design, DC Superhero Girls went with the purple motif and tech-savvy approach, the merchandise alone of her. It was popular and appealing because, finally, female readers didn’t feel sexualised; it was a costume that was afforded the same level of respect as Jason’s, as Damian’s and all the male heroes. It was a groundbreaking statement, which is exactly what Barbara Gordon has stood for since her inception.
> 
> Are you sure you aren't looking at Babs's runs with rose colored glasses? Because while Year One was great (probably one of the few Dixon comics I like), what I've read from Simone and (ugh) Burnside weren't terribly memorable. Doesn't help that the latter had Barbara looking like a teenage girl in a dumb costume. The best she's _looked_ in recent years is 3 Jokers, and that had the misfortune of continuing the tradition of her being "The Girl" and passing her to Jason cuz it was his turn now I guess. 
> 
> I'd say the earlier Cass issues (roughly the first 30 issues or so) and even Steph's run were better not just for the two leads but also for how Barbara was written as well. I _want_ some great Babs as Batgirl content (preferably a stand alone, continuity light one where she doesn't look like she's 14), but personally the stuff they've been producing for her is less than stellar and even the other Batgirls who I'm less fond of have better content in comparison.


But all still critically acclaimed and all still perfectly capturing what makes Babs Batgirl: her resilience, her meticulous methodology, her determination and how she often does operate with half the tech and yet twice the brain. You’re being incredibly disingenuous in your analysis: Gail Simone’s run showed perfectly the effects of PTSD in a superhero. She’s newly recovered and finding her sense of self, she needs a way to reach out and take back her life by protecting others. Granted, Burnside was lighter in tone, but what that offered was a place for Babs to show how unique she is: she dealt with how social media can act as a predictive means of crime-fighting and investigation, showcased how her eidetic memory works in action and more importantly, addressed disability and -attempted- to bring in an actively disabled hero who wasn’t as behind the scenes. Scott’s run reconciled the two final differences without sacrificing the best of any of it (save Frankie Charles). It was only editorial that screwed her and Castelluci over.

----------


## Frontier

> Babs didn’t rip off Steph. Steph wouldn’t have had a run focussing on tech start up groups, Steph wouldn’t have had a story relating to recovering from PTSD and trying to ‘be’ recovered without realising what recovery means. Steph wouldn’t have worked in using social media to predict crime and behaviour. Burnside isn’t Steph, it’s for Babs all the way.


I don't think the tech start up groups and social media aspects were all that far in Burnside's favor (or stuff that couldn't have fit with Steph's stories, to be honest). 

I wasn't even just talking about the stories directly but just the vibe and personality. 



> But all still critically acclaimed and all still perfectly capturing what makes Babs Batgirl: her resilience, her meticulous methodology, her determination and how she often does operate with half the tech and yet twice the brain. You’re being incredibly disingenuous in your analysis: Gail Simone’s run showed perfectly the effects of PTSD in a superhero. She’s newly recovered and finding her sense of self, she needs a way to reach out and take back her life by protecting others. Granted, Burnside was lighter in tone, but what that offered was a place for Babs to show how unique she is: she dealt with how social media can act as a predictive means of crime-fighting and investigation, showcased how her eidetic memory works in action and more importantly, addressed disability and -attempted- to bring in an actively disabled hero who wasn’t as behind the scenes. Scott’s run reconciled the two final differences without sacrificing the best of any of it (save Frankie Charles). It was only editorial that screwed her and Castelluci over.


The PTSD and horror got to be too much in Simone's run as it went along. 

If we had gotten more of Scott's take on Batgirl, I feel like her return would've been much better received than it ended up being. And she's a Cass fan.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I don't think the tech start up groups and social media aspects were all that far in Burnside's favor (or stuff that couldn't have fit with Steph's stories, to be honest). 
> 
> I wasn't even just talking about the stories directly but just the vibe and personality. 
> 
> The PTSD and horror got to be too much in Simone's run as it went along. 
> 
> If we had gotten more of Scott's take on Batgirl, I feel like her return would've been much better received than it ended up being. And she's a Cass fan.


No, Stephanie wouldn’t have been able to engage in Burnside: she’d have no knowledge of the inner workings of the technology that was being used like Babs did, didn’t have an eidetic memory to navigate with; the emphasis was on puzzles and problem solving, plus sociology and disability, all out of Stephanie’s purview. Burnside was specially made for Babs to establish herself and her unique approach. 

Again, editorial screwing Babs over because Simone did want to head in a lighter direction. And yes, Scott was a Cass fan, but unlike Tynion she saw the value in Babs as Batgirl and pushed it further. That’s the difference here.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The PTSD and horror got to be too much in Simone's run as it went along.


Simone's Batgirl run actively made me wonder if I was mistaken for thinking she was a good writer. The OTT grimness and (by her standards) stilted internal narration boxes made for a read that was just "oK' but could get exhausting.

Then I re-read her BOP, Secret Six and even Red Sonja (which came out a little after) and I remembered Simone could be great. I think a clean slate reboot for Batgirl with better art and Simone free of editorial interference could have been great. Team her up with Nicola Scott or something and we'd be aces.

----------


## Gaius

edit: woops, wrong thread

----------


## Gaius

> Pretty dead on.
> 
> I think a component that is missing from modern Joker is just that he's not funny. The best Joker writers can make him genuinely funny in a disarming way, and without that, he's just a nothing character doing blandly "shocking" things. 
> 
> One of the best things about BTAS being on a kids network was that the censorship forced the creators to leave the Joker's worst actions to implication and let his on screen actions be outside the box and clever. And when he had clearer murderous intentions he'd at least be thwarted.


Yes, I keep thinking with modern Joker is mainly "remember when you used to be fun?"

----------


## Agent Z

> -Exactly- 
> 
> Cass and Steph shouldnt have been erased, but even if they -were- there then it never would have been good enough. Just like how when they came back and had their own identities: nope, just not good enough. Well what are they actually doing now thats any better to Babs or more revolutionary? Punching and talking? Why! The Genius!


Pointing out that Cass and Steph are badly written doesn't make Babs better written.

----------


## Agent Z

> Cassandra and Stephanie arent in the same league with Babs as Batgirl. The Batgirl role isnt that of a side-kicks, its a statement: it stands for independence and defiance against adversity. Its about being underestimated and triumphing because of those assumptions: all Cass and Steph bring to the role is that of a side-kick. A soldier in Cass case. 
> 
> Barbara as Batgirl represented a true peoples hero: someone whos known tragedy and given her life to ensure that no-one should ever suffer that way again. Her sense of empathy is what drives her and her iron-will shines brightest as Batgirl because, with half the tech but twice the brain, she really showcases how important it is to -never- give up.
> 
> Steph and Cass arent so compelling because they can operate the same way and have the same stories under any name.


Cass was the first Batgirlto have a solo comic. Saying she was a just a sidekick and a soldier is incredibly disingenuous.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Pointing out that Cass and Steph are badly written doesn't make Babs better written.


Doesnt make Cass or Steph remotely interesting either, but here we are.

----------


## Agent Z

> Doesn’t make Cass or Steph remotely interesting either, but here we are.


Ditto for Barbara. Cass and Steph may be shadows of their former selves but Barbara is hardly setting the world ablsze now either.

And before you say anything, no I don't hate the character.

----------


## Agent Z

> Just sick of all the hypocrisy in this place. About time to start giving a little back of what Ive been getting here.


Giving a little back of what? You're the one being hostile to posters here.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Ditto for Barbara. Cass and Steph may be shadows of their former selves but Barbara is hardly setting the world ablsze now either.
> 
> And before you say anything, no I don't hate the character.


Cass and Steph were hardly ever comparable to Barbara: they could do whatever they do under any name, but they don’t scream ‘Batgirl’  and it shows. Why else were people putting up such a fuss to get Babs out of the role? This able-bodied Oracle certainly proved they don’t care for disabled rep.

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## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Giving a little back of what? You're the one being hostile to posters here.


Ten years of kicking and screaming and pissing and moaning: pointing out Barbara’s every little flaw and misstep and comparing it to two characters who hardly did it better or brought much else to the role, but somehow were more ‘worthy’ of the title. Well you got what you wanted didn’t you? So now you deserve to know what it feels like. Let’s see if ten years of this gets Babs back as Batgirl.

----------


## Drako

> Ten years of kicking and screaming and pissing and moaning: pointing out Barbara’s every little flaw and misstep and comparing it to two characters who hardly did it better or brought much else to the role, but somehow were more ‘worthy’ of the title. Well you got what you wanted didn’t you? So now you deserve to know what it feels like. Let’s see if ten years of this gets Babs back as Batgirl.


Barbara is going to be Oracle and Batgirl, nowhere near the same of what happened with Cass and Steph, who got erased from continuity, with writers being forbidden to bring them back.

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## Domino_Dare-Doll

> Barbara is going to be Oracle and Batgirl, nowhere near the same of what happened with Cass and Steph, who got erased from continuity, with writer being forbidden to bring them back.


Barbara is hardly going to be used as Batgirl: all she’s going to be used for is a support role to prop up two characters who can’t stand on their own merit. Meanwhile, the writer’s going to constantly devalue her time as Batgirl and treat it like it’s disposable. Cass and Steph can do the exact same thing under ANY name, Barbara doesn’t get that luxury.

----------


## Gaius

The real-life reasons for why Barbara became Oracle are rather shameful and fan griping can get annoying but it's not really comparable to Cass and Steph being outlawed as characters for all intents and purposes for much of the early 2010s.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> The real-life reasons for why Barbara became Oracle are rather shameful and fan griping can get annoying but it's not really comparable to Cass and Steph being outlawed as characters for all intents and purposes for much of the early 2010s.


No but the point still stands: even if Cass and Steph were included in the N52, it wouldn’t have been good enough. Barbara would still have been torn down and compared to those two for disingenuous reasons such as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ and representation which, ya know? Disabled person here: nobody’s batting an eyelid at able-bodied Oracle?—when Cass and Steph can do the -EXACT- same thing no matter what name they choose, but Barbara is perpetually kept inside without her own due acting as support. If Barbara had a more blended approach then yeah, great, but Tynion’s made it clear that he only wants her to be Batgirl ‘once in a blue moon,’ I.e, never while Cassandra and Steph fail to bring anything new or innovating that Barbara wasn’t doing.

----------


## godisawesome

> Cass and Steph were hardly ever comparable to Barbara: they could do whatever they do under any name, but they don’t scream ‘Batgirl’  and it shows. Why else were people putting up such a fuss to get Babs out of the role? This able-bodied Oracle certainly proved they don’t care for disabled rep.


...Babs doesn’t “scream” Batgirl anymore than they do; like Barry Allen she’s not even really the first character to take a crack at the ID. And honestly, I”d say it’s a good thing that all three modern characters, including Babs, are bigger than the Batgirl role - as much as the “Batgirl vs Oracle” debate has merits based in the genesis of the Oracle ID, it is now an intrinsic part of the character’s pop culture identity as much as anything else.

I would also argue that Oracle has that weird aspect of being her main “modern identity” in the same way Dick anal Jason have Nightwing and Red Hood; the legacy of that time period is still pretty much most of her greater maturity and depth, as well as her chemistry with other characters... or at least it *could* be; my more neutral musing is that its’ interesting that how much putting her back in the Batsuit coincided with decreasing her maturity and “seniority” in the Batfamily ranks - especially because (and I think most people would agree with this) _that wasn’t neccessary_.

On a different “controversial opinion:”

I think someone should experiment with making James Gordon the “rat” whistle-blower police officer as his backstory, and make his early career be pushing fore police reform. It may seem like this is trying to white wash the character from the shadier aspect of policing... but waht actually intrigues me about it is how much it can be used _dramatically_ to escalate tension in the department, his hypocrisy/risk taking with Batman as his ally given his reform attempts, and the way it could play into how ostracized he and his more loyal officers are by other even “honest” officers. 

Have him go full Serpico, where he is totally willing to air out the Department’s dirty laundry so that *all* the police, even the ones not taking bribes, are against him... and have his quick promotion to Commissioner at a young age, and when not willing to play city hall’s game, be a “poison pill” to ruin him...

...Thus pushing him into an alliance with Batman despite its implications, and creating yet more issues with Babs’s desire to become Batgirl

----------


## Drako

> *No but the point still stands: even if Cass and Steph were included in the N52*, it wouldn’t have been good enough. Barbara would still have been torn down and compared to those two for disingenuous reasons such as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ and representation which, ya know? Disabled person here: nobody’s batting an eyelid at able-bodied Oracle?—when Cass and Steph can do the -EXACT- same thing no matter what name they choose, but Barbara is perpetually kept inside without her own due acting as support. If Barbara had a more blended approach then yeah, great, but Tynion’s made it clear that he only wants her to be Batgirl ‘once in a blue moon,’ I.e, never while Cassandra and Steph fail to bring anything new or innovating that Barbara wasn’t doing.


I doubt it people would complain as much if Cass and Steph were part of the New 52 as Black Bat and Spoiler. They would at least have comics to follow, instead of being mad that DC got rid of them in favor of another character. 

Having one of your favorites completely erased sucks, I know the felling since DC did the same with Wally and i hated.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> I doubt it people would complain as much if Cass and Steph were part of the New 52 as Black Bat and Spoiler. They would at least have comics to follow, instead of being mad that DC got rid of them in favor of another character. 
> 
> Having one of your favorites completely erased sucks, I know the felling since DC did the same with Wally and i hated.


Are you kidding? Even on their RETURN people were screaming how it wasn’t good enough. How Cass just cannot be -anything- but Batgirl, how Stephanie’s being disrespected as Spoiler. They had their own identities and presence but it just wasn’t good enough. Even Cass being in the outsiders, doing very little differently than what she does now wasn’t good enough!

And you got what you wanted too as a Wally fan, I hear, Barry’s being shunted off across the multiverse but, hey, Barry’s fans get -something.- Babs-Batgirl fans have to make do with her being devalued, torn down, her accomplishments minimised if not outright ignored in favour of...two characters who have changed very little.

Meanwhile, Babs is somehow ‘nobler’ and ‘more important’ in a support role, well if that’s the case why not do that to Bruce? He’d be -more- important because he was Batman!

----------


## Frontier

> No, Stephanie wouldn’t have been able to engage in Burnside: she’d have no knowledge of the inner workings of the technology that was being used like Babs did, didn’t have an eidetic memory to navigate with; the emphasis was on puzzles and problem solving, plus sociology and disability, all out of Stephanie’s purview. Burnside was specially made for Babs to establish herself and her unique approach.


I don't think all of that was out of Steph's wheelhouse to where it couldn't have worked or was so wholly unique to Babs. Maybe their interpretation of her, but that still felt like they were kind of channeling Steph. 



> Again, editorial screwing Babs over because Simone did want to head in a lighter direction. And yes, Scott was a Cass fan, but unlike Tynion she saw the value in Babs as Batgirl and pushed it further. That’s the difference here.


I don't think Tynion preferring Oracle means he doesn't see value in Babs as Batgirl. 



> Barbara is hardly going to be used as Batgirl: all she’s going to be used for is a support role to prop up two characters who can’t stand on their own merit. Meanwhile, the writer’s going to constantly devalue her time as Batgirl and treat it like it’s disposable. Cass and Steph can do the exact same thing under ANY name, Barbara doesn’t get that luxury.


I feel like there is a lot of assuming going on here. 

Why is it so wrong for Cass and Steph to be associated with the Batgirl name? They don't have any right to it? I don't see them stopping the name from being associated with Babs any more than the fact that they really never have. 



> Are you kidding? Even on their RETURN people were screaming how it wasn’t good enough. How Cass just cannot be -anything- but Batgirl, how Stephanie’s being disrespected as Spoiler. They had their own identities and presence but it just wasn’t good enough. Even Cass being in the outsiders, doing very little differently than what she does now wasn’t good enough!


I mean, because it wasn't that perfect? They still felt like a shell of themselves and like they were being rebuilt from the ground up with none of their history or character development intact, let alone the importance they had to the mythos. 



> And you got what you wanted too as a Wally fan, I hear, Barry’s being shunted off across the multiverse but, hey, Barry’s fans get -something.- Babs-Batgirl fans have to make do with her being devalued, torn down, her accomplishments minimised if not outright ignored in favour of...two characters who have changed very little.


I don't really see any of this happening in the actual books. 



> Meanwhile, Babs is somehow ‘nobler’ and ‘more important’ in a support role, well if that’s the case why not do that to Bruce? He’d be -more- important because he was Batman!


Oracle's better than Bruce at it.

----------


## godisawesome

> Are you kidding? Even on their RETURN people were screaming how it wasn’t good enough. How Cass just cannot be -anything- but Batgirl, how Stephanie’s being disrespected as Spoiler. They had their own identities and presence but it just wasn’t good enough. Even Cass being in the outsiders, doing very little differently than what she does now wasn’t good enough!
> 
> And you got what you wanted too as a Wally fan, I hear, Barry’s being shunted off across the multiverse but, hey, Barry’s fans get -something.- Babs-Batgirl fans have to make do with her being devalued, torn down, her accomplishments minimised if not outright ignored in favour of...two characters who have changed very little.
> 
> Meanwhile, Babs is somehow ‘nobler’ and ‘more important’ in a support role, well if that’s the case why not do that to Bruce? He’d be -more- important because he was Batman!


...You’ve had nearly a decade of Babs back as Batgirl and headlining a book of some kind. You _ain’t_ suffering more than fans of the other characters. 

_All_ the Batgirls have suffered editorial capriciousness and casual neglect and cruelty; the line between someone okaying Babs getting shot in TKJ, Steph being tortured and murdered, and Cass being turned evil all come from the same pursuit of cheap shocks and cynical marketing ploys. Their individual returns were all fought for by fans who became creators themselves, and were all triumphant.

This fanatical monopoly you want on the Batgirl identity for Babs just _limits_ the brand, and exacerbates tensions for three characters who each helped each other in *some* way - whether it’s comfortable to realize it or not, Cass helped prove the solo could work, Steph was basically a prototype of the younger, hipper, college friendly Batgirl that Burnside was, and Babs was both the original modern trailblazer overall and mentor character for both of the others.

And hell yes, all three can share the identity, and it doesn’t hurt anybody, because the title Batgirl gives all of the some _f****ing respect_, which all three have been deprived of. 

The idea it dilutes the brand is _utter nonsense and useless drivel,_ whether it applies to the Robin, Batgirls, or Batmen, in fact. 

Call me back when the bat books don’t have spin-offs starring sidekicks that outsell and outlast Justice League members.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> ...You’ve had nearly a decade of Babs back as Batgirl and headlining a book of some kind. You _ain’t_ suffering more than fans of the other characters. 
> 
> _All_ the Batgirls have suffered editorial capriciousness and casual neglect and cruelty; the line between someone okaying Babs getting shot in TKJ, Steph being tortured and murdered, and Cass being turned evil all come from the same pursuit of cheap shocks and cynical marketing ploys. Their individual returns were all fought for by fans who became creators themselves, and were all triumphant.
> 
> This fanatical monopoly you want on the Batgirl identity for Babs just _limits_ the brand, and exacerbates tensions for three characters who each helped each other in *some* way - whether it’s comfortable to realize it or not, Cass helped prove the solo could work, Steph was basically a prototype of the younger, hipper, college friendly Batgirl that Burnside was, and Babs was both the original modern trailblazer overall and mentor character for both of the others.
> 
> And hell yes, all three can share the identity, and it doesn’t hurt anybody, because the title Batgirl gives all of the some _f****ing respect_, which all three have been deprived of. 
> 
> The idea it dilutes the brand is _utter nonsense and useless drivel,_ whether it applies to the Robin, Batgirls, or Batmen, in fact. 
> ...


Wow! Way to miss the point completely dude!!

The issue here isn’t them sharing the name, it’s how often if ever Babs gets to BE Batgirl!

‘Cos here’s the thing? The other two? Exact same shit no matter what name. But Batgirl vs Oracle? Two -completely- different ways of working and aspect of the character, often shunting Babs off into meaningless support and exposition?

Can they share it? Absolutely. But it should be -equal-


And hey: nearly a decade of Babs as Batgirl. Did ya stop to think? Maybe that’s where the anger’s coming from? Having grown to adore her during all that time? But you got just as long with Cass and Steph as Batgirl, and other characters in fact maybe -you- shouldn’t just suck it up! It’s been, like, what? Long enough?

----------


## Restingvoice

> No but the point still stands: even if Cass and Steph were included in the N52, it wouldn’t have been good enough. Barbara would still have been torn down and compared to those two for disingenuous reasons such as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ and representation which, ya know? Disabled person here: nobody’s batting an eyelid at able-bodied Oracle?—when Cass and Steph can do the -EXACT- same thing no matter what name they choose, but Barbara is perpetually kept inside without her own due acting as support. If Barbara had a more blended approach then yeah, great, but Tynion’s made it clear that he only wants her to be Batgirl ‘once in a blue moon,’ I.e, never while Cassandra and Steph fail to bring anything new or innovating that Barbara wasn’t doing.





> I doubt it people would complain as much if Cass and Steph were part of the New 52 as Black Bat and Spoiler. They would at least have comics to follow, instead of being mad that DC got rid of them in favor of another character. 
> 
> Having one of your favorites completely erased sucks, I know the felling since DC did the same with Wally and i hated.


Bit correction, Black Bat and Batgirl, with all the achievements, character developments, back stories and relationships, including adoption status. The acceptable change is Cass never evil and Steph never tortured/died.

I can't say for how much they'll complain about Babs if they have all that but Babs is Batgirl, because that never happened.

About disability, there are people complaining about able-bodied Oracle being both Oracle and Batgirl, starting during the Burnside Era... or whichever book has Babsgirl declare she is both Batgirl and Oracle, and walking out with the Batgirl costume... accusing of DC trying to please everyone but not actually making a commitment to represent the disability, but the numbers have been getting lower and lower throughout the years. 

I don't think they're pleased, just tired and stopped paying attention. I noticed with different characters, some blogs usernames just stop posting what they used to like and started focusing on other fandom/materials.

Edit: Wait, no. I remember. Fans responded really well to Gail Simone's Batgirl Futures End where all of them are Batgirls plus Tiffany. I don't remember if there's a disability protest, or if it's all euphoria because finally, they're acknowledged together just like the Robins, but it _was_ the best they had in around 3 years.

So at least, all of them being Batgirl at the same time is acceptable.

----------


## Godlike13

> That's a stand alone mini series, not an ongoing. I don't know if that would make for a good comparison with Cass's sustaining an ongoing series for 73 issues back in a period where comics were slightly more available than what they are now. Babs's series haven't made it much beyond 50 before needing to be rebooted, and now she's just Nightwing's supporting character. 
> 
> And again, I think if Barbara as Batgirl got an ongoing series at that time or a bit earlier, she'd move units. We just can't know for sure how it would compare to Cass's though because it didn't happen.


A stand alone mini series that ran during the time of Cass’ ongoing, and has been more successful throughout the years then Cass series despite its length. Batgirl Year One is the pinnacle Batgirl book. Where Cass became almost unsellable by her series end. 




> Are you sure you aren't looking at Babs's runs with rose colored glasses? Because while Year One was great (probably one of the few Dixon comics I like), what I've read from Simone and (ugh) Burnside weren't terribly memorable. Doesn't help that the latter had Barbara looking like a teenage girl in a dumb costume. The best she's _looked_ in recent years is 3 Jokers, and that had the misfortune of continuing the tradition of her being "The Girl" and passing her to Jason cuz it was his turn now I guess. 
> 
> I'd say the earlier Cass issues (roughly the first 30 issues or so) and even Steph's run were better not just for the two leads but also for how Barbara was written as well. I _want_ some great Babs as Batgirl content (preferably a stand alone, continuity light one where she doesn't look like she's 14), but personally the stuff they've been producing for her is less than stellar and even the other Batgirls who I'm less fond of have better content in comparison.


Year One is the pinnacle. That’s the only Batgirl run that has come close breaking out as general audience hit. And while you might not have liked those run you can’t deny their industry impact. Simone’s run was a pillar of the New 52, and Burnside inspired DC to change up their entire line. I think we will see those runs last through the test of time as well as, if not better, then Cass or Stephs runs have. And will probably be more influential to the what they do with Batgirl out of comics. 

Cass and Steph’s runs are runs loved by their fans, but these are not iconic runs that really broke out with general audiences or anything. And what’s more they have failed to produce any content of worth with them since.

----------


## km_sus

> A stand alone mini series that ran during the time of Cass’ ongoing, and has been more successful throughout the years then Cass series despite its length. Batgirl Year One is the pinnacle Batgirl book. Where Cass became almost unsellable by her series end.


Batgirl Issue 69 October 2005 - 26,853 - 4 Issues from the end of Cass' run.

Batgirl Issue 45 October 2015 - 29, 276

Batgirl Issue 11 May 2017 - 23, 338

Batgirl Issue 33 March 2019 - 24, 034

It's okay to not like the stories or anything, but let's not pretend and make false statements.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. Nor is it a false statement to say, in other words, that Cass marketability took a nose dive. Why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. They lost faith in being able to sell Cass, so much so they took her out of the role. 

Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. Nor is it a false statement to say Cass marketability took a nose dive. Why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. They lost faith in being able to sell Cass, so much so they took her out of the role. 
> 
> Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.


You also have to remember that Batgirl Year One is more accessible than Cass, both for being an origin and being a character that general audience actually know. So even if you never read a comic before, you heard the name, you see it looks familiar, and you can just pick it up. 

DC doesn't promote Cass to general audience. Her only appearance out of comics was as a costume in a Batman PC game set in TNBA era where Babs is Batgirl in story, that I played, that was pretty bad, and not, as far as I know, well known enough, that I don't even remember the title. Batman Legends I think.  

Even talking about current number is incomparable, when Babs has had a steady series for almost 10 years now with appearances in DC Superhero Girls and Arkham games while New 52 Cass show up late, history changed, a lot of times only cameo. Remember some fans refuse to buy unless it's returned exactly as Post Crisis. 

Detective sold high though, but that's Detective.

...btw what was this discussion about? Who's more popular and deserving to be the lead Batgirl?

----------


## km_sus

> It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. And why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. Cass marketability took a nose dive. At least they thought so, so much so they took her out of the role. Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.


Well for one, I never said that Year One _wasn't_ the most popular Batgirl book. You said that Cass Batgirl was "unsellable", I provided evidence to the contrary. Speaking of evidence:

Batgirl Issue 4 October 2008 - 23,498

Yeah the sales by the end bottomed out at 20,000, but what do expect when:
A) You character assassinate the character beyond recognition
and
B) Hire the same guy who wrote that character assassination to write the mini
Not a recipe for success. 

Also since you asked:

Batgirl Issue 39 November 2019 - 23,889

Outsiders Issue 6 November 2019 - 25,103

The sales are from November to get a general idea of sales before Covid, although Outsiders retains higher numbers than Batgirl until March.

----------


## km_sus

Also I'm not posting this to be mean or "own" you or anything. Just don't like the sentiment that Cass or Steph were "unsellable" as Batgirl.

----------


## John Venus

Babs also appeared as Batgirl in B:TAS and TNBA and Batgirl: Year One was specifically meant to draw in the audience that grew up with that show.  

Cass hasn't really gotten a fair shake in outside media aside from a blink-and-you-miss-it cameo in JL and YJ.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. Nor is it a false statement to say Cass marketability took a nose dive. Why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. They lost faith in being able to sell Cass, so much so they took her out of the role. 
> 
> Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.


They didn't lose faith in Cass, they sabotaged her for the sake of bringing back Babs. There's a difference

----------


## Godlike13

> Well for one, I never said that Year One _wasn't_ the most popular Batgirl book. You said that Cass Batgirl was "unsellable", I provided evidence to the contrary. Speaking of evidence:
> 
> Batgirl Issue 4 October 2008 - 23,498
> 
> Yeah the sales by the end bottomed out at 20,000, but what do expect when:
> A) You character assassinate the character beyond recognition
> and
> B) Hire the same guy who wrote that character assassination to write the mini
> Not a recipe for success. 
> ...


But you didn’t, you just posted a bunch of sub par numbers comparing them to other sub par numbers decades later as if this somehow proves something. If anything your just proving my point. Cass wasn’t particularly selling well by the end of her series, 26k weren’t good numbers, and the attempts to sell her after just drew lower and lower numbers. The sales trend there it’s plain as day. 
Don’t worry about “owning” me or anything. Cause those numbers just prove the sentiment that Cass marketability fell through the floor. I get your trying to change the perception by bringing up and comparing them to Babs’ low as Batgirl, but comparing sub par numbers to sub par numbers doesn’t prove my statement false.




> They didn't lose faith in Cass, they sabotaged her for the sake of bringing back Babs. There's a difference


Yet they made Steph Batgirl. I remember the newsletter at time, there was a statement along the lines of we weren’t sure who was going to be Batgirl but we knew we needed a new Batgirl.

----------


## Drako

I might be mistaken, i don't care enough to look for the numbers right now, but Babs wasn't selling well by the end of her current run too, right?

----------


## John Venus

They teased us with the new Batgirl for months.    

Bryan Q Miller who had written a few episodes of Smallville episodes wanted a Babs-lite Batgirl. He chose Steph or was she was given to him by editorial. Either way, they allowed him to write Steph as Batgirl until he decided to carry it over to his Smallville Season 11 comic where he tried to introduce Steph as Nightwing and Batman's partner, which is when editorial interferred and forced him to change her to Barbara.   

It's clear that not everything editorial does is based on 'marketing' or sales. More than once they've let their personal biases affect their characters. If they were truly about the sales, numbers, marketing and being the corporate IP farm they are supposed to be, DC would be more like Marvel right now instead of a playground for Boomers.

----------


## km_sus

> But you didn’t, you just posted a bunch of sub par numbers comparing them to other sub par numbers decades later as if this somehow proves something. If anything your just proving my point. Cass wasn’t particularly selling well by the end of her series, 26k weren’t good numbers, and the attempts to sell her after just drew lower and lower numbers. The sales trend there it’s plain as day. 
> Don’t worry about “owning” me or anything. Cause those numbers just prove the sentiment that Cass marketability fell through the floor. I get your trying to change the perception by bringing up and comparing them to Babs’ low as Batgirl, but comparing sub par numbers to sub par numbers doesn’t prove my statement false.


Huh? I posted those numbers to compare the "unsellable" (your words) numbers of the end of Cass' run to random points in Barbara's run years apart, to show that if you consider Cass' numbers unsellable, then you must also consider Barbara's to be unsellable too. Even the 08 mini's numbers are similar to the end of Babs' run.

Compare:
Batgirl Issue 46 November 2003 - 27,120
to
Batgirl Issue 46 December 2015 - 27,591

You can see further proof that with their first continuous run, on the same issue, that Cass and Barbara have almost identical numbers.
In fact, I went the extra mile and pulled up the Batgirl Year One numbers. Comparing the series on December 2002 you have:

Batgirl Year One Issue 1 - 34,697
and
Batgirl Issue 35 - 33,888

You can see that Year One didn't blow Cass out of the water then either. Your claim that Cass is 'unmarketable' or other such ideas just isn't true - and they certainly didn't get rid of her because of poor sales.

----------


## Agent Z

> Wow! Way to miss the point completely dude!!
> 
> The issue here isnt them sharing the name, its how often if ever Babs gets to BE Batgirl!
> 
> Cos heres the thing? The other two? Exact same shit no matter what name. But Batgirl vs Oracle? Two -completely- different ways of working and aspect of the character, often shunting Babs off into meaningless support and exposition?
> 
> Can they share it? Absolutely. But it should be -equal-
> 
> 
> And hey: nearly a decade of Babs as Batgirl. Did ya stop to think? Maybe thats where the angers coming from? Having grown to adore her during all that time? But you got just as long with Cass and Steph as Batgirl, and other characters in fact maybe -you- shouldnt just suck it up! Its been, like, what? Long enough?


Babs was Batgirl from 1967 to 1988. She has appeared in far more movies, shows and games as Batgirl or Oracle than Cass and Steph.  She is in no way the one shortchanged Batgirl here.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yet they made Steph Batgirl. I remember the newsletter at time, there was a statement along the lines of we weren’t sure who was going to be Batgirl but we knew we needed a new Batgirl.


Yeah, because they didn't have the guts to get rid of Oracle. They were clearly moving that way, or else we wouldn't have had an Oracle mini series called 'The Cure'.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

The ultimate problem with Babs as Batgirl, compared to Cass or Steph, is that she lacks a convincing motivation beyond 'was Batgirl in the Silver Age'.

Her original origin was dressing up as Batman and stumbling across a crime. Not exactly compelling material, especially in a Noir driven franchise as Batman. I honestly couldn't tell you her modern origin, and that really says something, IMO.

What exactly is her compelling motivation? Because compared to Cass, Steph and most other characters, she's had it easy. No dead parents, a father who's relatively respected, comfortable middle class and apparently, she's had enough extracurriculars to be just as effective a crime fighter as the guy who poured millions into his study to be the best crime fighter in the world.

As internal logic evolves, Babs only falls farther behind, IMO.

----------


## Godlike13

> Huh? I posted those numbers to compare the "unsellable" (your words) numbers of the end of Cass' run to random points in Barbara's run years apart, to show that if you consider Cass' numbers unsellable, then you must also consider Barbara's to be unsellable too. Even the 08 mini's numbers are similar to the end of Babs' run.
> 
> Compare:
> Batgirl Issue 46 November 2003 - 27,120
> to
> Batgirl Issue 46 December 2015 - 27,591
> 
> and you can see further proof that with their first continuous run, on the same issue, that Cass and Barbara have almost identical numbers.
> In fact, I went the extra mile and pulled up the Batgirl Year One numbers. Compare December 2002 with:
> ...


Comparing sub par numbers to other sub par numbers doesn’t prove those numbers weren’t sub par or that Cass’ marketability didn’t become poor and only got poorer. You can keep doing it all you want, but it doesn’t invalidate my statement. Cass marketability got low and then lower, to the point they lost confidence with her in the role. The numbers prove that. You basically trying to dispute my statement with Babs is selling poorly too. Which, even if we ignore the decades difference in market circumstances, ok Babs is selling poor too. Doesn’t make my initial statement false. Difference between Babs and Cass though when it come to selling poorly is Babs has rebounded from negative sales trends before, and her marketability expands beyond just floppies. 

And Batgirl Year One’s success is in its longevity. This is a book and story that continued to sell beyond its initial publishing. You can still find this book on selves. Cass’ series though, or any other Batgirl series beyond the current run. Good luck.

----------


## Domino_Dare-Doll

> The ultimate problem with Babs as Batgirl, compared to Cass or Steph, is that she lacks a convincing motivation beyond 'was Batgirl in the Silver Age'.
> 
> Her original origin was dressing up as Batman and stumbling across a crime. Not exactly compelling material, especially in a Noir driven franchise as Batman. I honestly couldn't tell you her modern origin, and that really says something, IMO.
> 
> What exactly is her compelling motivation? Because compared to Cass, Steph and most other characters, she's had it easy. No dead parents, a father who's relatively respected, comfortable middle class and apparently, she's had enough extracurriculars to be just as effective a crime fighter as the guy who poured millions into his study to be the best crime fighter in the world.
> 
> As internal logic evolves, Babs only falls farther behind, IMO.


Excuse me? What a gross oversimplification, let me correct you accordingly. 

Babs modern origins is as follows: though originally inspired by what Batman did, her real motivation came from her father as she was inspired by him but aware of the obstacles he faced due to corruption in the GCPD. Thus, Batgirl was born as a combination of both sources of inspiration.

She doubted herself and her motivations severely, opting to step back from crime-fighting for re-evaluation...then tragedy struck. She was shot, paralysed and brutalised and -that- was what became her new drive.

Her motivation stems from her empathy: of knowing what it is to feel helpless and hopeless, to be driven mad by the sheer randomness of how tragedy strikes and so she strives to make sure nobody else suffers as she does. Babs Batgirl is very much connected to the actual people of Gotham because she’s lived those issues. Hence some of the best moments in her run, when it’s her connecting both with the people she’s helping -and- even the criminals she’s facing in some instances. It’s something that isn’t prominent as Oracle, opting instead for a hardened approach first and foremost because she’s behind the screens. She’s detached; she isn’t facing the issues directly, but navigating other people into them.

Babs most prominent villains in her origin also stem from a very real issue she faces as a hero: PTSD. Mirror, for example, whom victimised others in lieu of it being ‘fair, right and just.’

Babs compelling motivation is the people she wants to help first and foremost: to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous and untrue.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Excuse me? What a gross oversimplification, let me correct you accordingly. 
> 
> Babs modern origins is as follows: though originally inspired by what Batman did, her real motivation came from her father as she was inspired by him but aware of the obstacles he faced due to corruption in the GCPD. Thus, Batgirl was born as a combination of both sources of inspiration.
> 
> She doubted herself and her motivations severely, opting to step back from crime-fighting for re-evaluation...then tragedy struck. She was shot, paralysed and brutalised and -that- was what became her new drive.
> 
> Her motivation stems from her empathy: of knowing what it is to feel helpless and hopeless, to be driven mad by the sheer randomness of how tragedy strikes and so she strives to make sure nobody else suffers as she does. Babs Batgirl is very much connected to the actual people of Gotham because she’s lived those issues. Hence some of the best moments in her run, when it’s her connecting both with the people she’s helping -and- even the criminals she’s facing in some instances. It’s something that isn’t prominent as Oracle, opting instead for a hardened approach first and foremost because she’s behind the screens. She’s detached; she isn’t facing the issues directly, but navigating other people into them.
> 
> Babs most prominent villains in her origin also stem from a very real issue she faces as a hero: PTSD. Mirror, for example, whom victimised others in lieu of it being ‘fair, right and just.’
> ...


Being a hero to be a hero is underwhelming motivation, overall. That's the same for Hal Jordon and Barry Allen of the same Silver Age background, and why they are so underwhelming as characters. Babs has an advantage over them at least in a background that contrasts with her character but even that doesn't do much.

Which is probably why the main villains who are used as arc villains are her brother or Joker. She doesn't serve as a great foil to any other of the rogues unfortunately.

----------


## marhawkman

> Except the Nightwings got killed off and the narrative went out of its way to justify why there can only be one and only forever and ever. It was equally celebrated by fans. Those SAME fans who devalue Batgirl in such a way. Its the fact that DC is so keen to give in to such nonsense rather than making an actual effort to DIFFERENTIATE every character and their approach thats BS. 
> 
> Her approach as Batgirl absolutely can stand out, because as you said: if Nightwing can get get away with it then Batgirl absolutely should be afforded that same luxury


Ah, yes, Lor-Zod is the one true Nightwing.  :Big Grin: 

Yes it amuses me greatly that Richard Grayson went to SUPERMAN for advice when he decided to stop being Robin... and somehow decided to name himself after a Kryptonian deity.... who is a literal bat-god.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Don't believe me? check out this Nightwing look:  :Big Grin: 
Kara_Zor-L_Nightwing_001.jpg
Yes, that's Karen Star(Aka Kara Zor-L, aka Powergirl)

That said, I wish they'd bring back Cheyenne Freemont.... who also used the name Nightwing.  Maybe give her a different one?



> Thing is she didn't actually do any of the that, the new 52 did, but the fact she get blamed for that i thinks shows a lot of the true motivation behind a lot of the scrutiny.


New 52 mangled continuity, by design. :/  The writers wanted to be able to ignore parts they didn't like.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Being a hero to be a hero is underwhelming motivation, overall. That's the same for Hal Jordon and Barry Allen of the same Silver Age background, and why they are so underwhelming as characters. Babs has an advantage over them at least in a background that contrasts with her character but even that doesn't do much.
> 
> Which is probably why the main villains who are used as arc villains are her brother or Joker. She doesn't serve as a great foil to any other of the rogues unfortunately.


Seeing as how they sometimes overdo it with making heroes fueled by angst and tragedy, I think Barbara (or Hal or Barry) being a hero just because it's the right thing to do can be refreshing.

They decided to give Barry a tragic motivation, and it blows.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Seeing as how they sometimes overdo it with making heroes fueled by angst and tragedy, I think Barbara (or Hal or Barry) being a hero just because it's the right thing to do can be refreshing.
> 
> They decided to give Barry a tragic motivation, and it blows.


It can be, but it needs a compelling hook or contrast, all the same. Remember, at the end of the day these are 2D characters who never move with no tone of voice whatsoever (discussing the comics, obviously)

Nemesis in Suicide Squad was a hero who did the right thing because it was the right thing. In that book, he stood out.

But when he was partnered with Wonder Woman, he was as interesting as toast. Because next to the premier DC heroine, doing right because it is right is standard fair.

Even in Gotham, Babs doesn't stand out enough. Dick has the 'Bat who smiles' on lockdown  :Smile: 

And as I've alluded elsewhere, internal logic is hot on Babs' heels. 

Batman's prowess comes from a vaguely defined journey of studying under masters all around the world. Kathy Kane's came from a father who brought her special forces tutors. Dick was a trained acrobat before becoming Robin, and further training under Bruce. Both Tim and Jason trained heavily under Bruce.

Babs can do everything Bruce can...because of after school gymnastics? As origin filler goes, it's underwhelming.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Babs can do everything Bruce can...because of after school gymnastics? As origin filler goes, it's underwhelming.


Ballet, gymnastic, and judo, I think...

She can't though. As far as martial skills go she's way below Bruce and Cass, and her detective skills was trained by Batman and Robin, and/or by following her father's cases, depending on which version. 

In the past version, the difference is not as visible because Bruce himself was not the insane martial artists, best of everything that he is today.

----------


## Agent Z

> It can be, but it needs a compelling hook or contrast, all the same. Remember, at the end of the day these are 2D characters who never move with no tone of voice whatsoever (discussing the comics, obviously)
> 
> Nemesis in Suicide Squad was a hero who did the right thing because it was the right thing. In that book, he stood out.
> 
> But when he was partnered with Wonder Woman, he was as interesting as toast. Because next to the premier DC heroine, doing right because it is right is standard fair.


That wasn't the issue with Nemesis in Wonder Woman. The issue is that he was a sexist boor and unlikable creep who was a poor man's substitute for Steve Trevor. He even has some dialogue in Amazons Attack suggesting he isn't all that heroic. 

Steve Trevor was a straightforward hero in the Wonder Woman movie and that motivation worked just fine.

----------


## Tzigone

> Yes it amuses me greatly that Richard Grayson went to SUPERMAN for advice when he decided to stop being Robin... and somehow decided to name himself after a Kryptonian deity.... who is a literal bat-god.


Of course, to be fair, that was a much late retcon that changed what Nightwing was on Krypton.  Which was quite annoying. Though I liked Chris.




> It can be, but it needs a compelling hook or contrast, all the same. Remember, at the end of the day these are 2D characters who never move with no tone of voice whatsoever (discussing the comics, obviously)


I just don't really agree. Being a hero because one wants to be hero, to save people or even not as a calling but as way to both do good and have fun is perfectly fine with me.   I like it much better than being motivated by tragedy (a little of that for variety is fine, but it's so overdone now an annoying retconned onto characters like Barry). That that hero be called "Batgirl" isn't really important, but Barbara did it because of circumstance. It certainly made more sense to me that Steph sacrificing the identity that she made for herself to take on someone else's (I'm one of the few Steph fans that much preferred her as Spoiler and found Batgirl to be a demotion).  The only reasons for Cass to be Batgirl (instead of use another name) is because of a sort inheritance aspect from Barbara and Bruce, both of whom she'd only fairly recently met.




> Steve Trevor was a straightforward hero in the Wonder Woman movie and that motivation worked just fine.


Absolutely.




> In the past version, the difference is not as visible because Bruce himself was not the insane martial artists, best of everything that he is today.


Liked him better then.  Several human heroes are so OP now that they barely pass as human.  Of course, I'm against a lot of the adding power to the non-human ones, too.  I can't think of any that have had varied power levels that I prefer at the highest power level I've seen (at least off the top of my head).  But that's just one of those things - some people like God-tier powers more than others.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> That wasn't the issue with Nemesis in Wonder Woman. The issue is that he was a sexist boor and unlikable creep who was a poor man's substitute for Steve Trevor. He even has some dialogue in Amazons Attack suggesting he isn't all that heroic. 
> 
> Steve Trevor was a straightforward hero in the Wonder Woman movie and that motivation worked just fine.


There were a lot of issues with Tom in Wonder Woman  :Wink: 

And I clarified I was discussing comics for a reason :P

----------


## Frontier

Personally I think not every Superhero needs to have a deep or dramatic reason for wanting to do good. In fact it helps Babs stand out among the rest that she didn't really have one, beyond the fact that she was raised by Jim Gordon and that's obviously going to engender a deep sense of civic responsibility and sense of right that she carries into being Batgirl. 

Jim would not let her join the police force and she was constantly underestimated for her gender, and then she goes on to emulate and be inspired by someone who she sees as doing real good in the city (and this is Gotham, cushy living is a rarity more than the norm). She chances upon a chance to wear the suit and then it kickstarts from there. 

As far as training, she hasn't been self-trained since Post-Crisis where they made her an official protege that Bruce gave the full training regiment to. 

I feel like she plays off the other Rogues fine when she gets to interact with them and isn't  giving them a pass for the sake of the plot (Cough)The Sirens(Cough).

----------


## Tzigone

> Personally I think not every Superhero needs to have a deep or dramatic reason for wanting to do good.


I strongly agree.




> Jim would not let her join the police force and she was constantly underestimated for her gender, and then she goes on to emulate and be inspired by someone who she sees as doing real good in the city (and this is Gotham, cushy living is a rarity more than the norm). She chances upon a chance to wear the suit and then it kickstarts from there.


That I do not like.  I didn't like Batgirl: Year One (I don't like her as a protege, and I hate that she'd have been dead immediately if not for Batman).  She was a grown woman, and her father had absolutely no ability to "let" her do anything or forbid her. If she'd wanted that, she could have done it, even if it'd meant going elsewhere (and I certainly don't like the notion of a Jim Gordon who would try to control his adult child's career choices by intervening when she applied places).   Not to mention the profound lack of personal respect for her that would be.




> As far as training, she hasn't been self-trained since Post-Crisis where they made her an official protege that Bruce gave the full training regiment to.


Like I said, I hate that. I hate her being subordinate to him. I hate the power imbalance where he knew her identity and she didn't know his.  It's a huge downgrade from how she started out. I'm perfectly fine with her being self-trained, like the majority of old-school heroes were.

I would like her developing more of her own rogues, though. I really think the adults need to leave Gotham and not be in Bruce's sphere of influence if they are to be viewed as independent heroes.  And I think the characters are better served by having their own villains (and that does not mean the Joker's girlfriend or Luthor's cousin or Sivana's kid - spinoff villains associate with their parent property).

----------


## Frontier

> That I do not like.  I didn't like Batgirl: Year One (I don't like her as a protege, and I hate that she'd have been dead immediately if not for Batman).  She was a grown woman, and her father had absolutely no ability to "let" her do anything or forbid her. If she'd wanted that, she could have done it, even if it'd meant going elsewhere (and I certainly don't like the notion of a Jim Gordon who would try to control his adult child's career choices by intervening when she applied places).   Not to mention the profound lack of personal respect for her that would be.
> 
> Like I said, I hate that. I hate her being subordinate to him. I hate the power imbalance where he knew her identity and she didn't know his.  It's a huge downgrade from how she started out. I'm perfectly fine with her being self-trained, like the majority of old-school heroes were.
> 
> I would like her developing more of her own rogues, though. I really think the adults need to leave Gotham and not be in Bruce's sphere of influence if they are to be viewed as independent heroes.  And I think the characters are better served by having their own villains (and that does not mean the Joker's girlfriend or Luthor's cousin or Sivana's kid - spinoff villains associate with their parent property).


I guess I'm more in favor of it because I was introduced to adaptions where Batgirl was an equal partner to Batman along with Robin, or even Batman's only partner. 

I also like Babs and Bruce's relationship, so, again, personal bias  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Tzigone

> I guess I'm more in favor of it because I was introduced to adaptions where Batgirl was an equal partner to Batman along with Robin, or even Batman's only partner.


But what you are saying is the absolute reverse of that.  It makes a her a sidekick (or at least trainee) of Batman's instead of the peer she was when introduced.  It's an inherently unequal relationship, IMO.  It can become one of equals, but alas, not for Batman. I keep hoping for it with Batman and Nightwing, but it never does. Then again, no one can be his equal these days.  I don't like him still ordering around the adults, giving them missions, etc. at all. It's why I want them out of Gotham. I don't want them working _for_ him, which is what it all to often in the modern era. I swear sometimes he treated Dick as more a partner instead of underling in the '40s than in the '00s.




> I also like Babs and Bruce's relationship, so, again, personal bias .


Not me at all, I admit.  I'm very fond of her working primarily independently, rather than with Batman. She did that quite a bit.  Then she and grown Robin worked as peers in the1970s, which I also really liked.

I don't like Batman at the center of all the relationships. In the 1970s, she was much more friendly and worked much more often with Robin. I liked Spoiler working with Tim, and not with Batman, too.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I kind of like the idea of Barbara becoming Bruce's main partner after Dick leaves to become Nightwing. Kind of like DCAU, but strictly platonic. It's why I don't really see the need for another Robin after Dick leaves. 

But I'd like that to be balanced out with the pre-COIE stuff where she was more independent and self taught instead of actually being trained by Bruce. And definitely no him revealing his ID to her "when she's ready," have her figure it out on her own.

----------


## Frontier

> But what you are saying is the absolute reverse of that.  It makes a her a sidekick (or at least trainee) of Batman's instead of the peer she was when introduced.  It's an inherently unequal relationship, IMO.  It can become one of equals, but alas, not for Batman. I keep hoping for it with Batman and Nightwing, but it never does. Then again, no one can be his equal these days.  I don't like him still ordering around the adults, giving them missions, etc. at all. It's why I want them out of Gotham. I don't want them working _for_ him, which is what it all to often in the modern era. I swear sometimes he treated Dick as more a partner instead of underling in the '40s than in the '00s.


I like sidekicks and I feel like they can still play off Batman well in their own way, so it doesn't really bother me that much. 

I feel like Nightwing is there, depending on the writer. 




> Not me at all, I admit.  I'm very fond of her working primarily independently, rather than with Batman. She did that quite a bit.  Then she and grown Robin worked as peers in the1970s, which I also really liked.


Maybe an indenpent but involved partner? That was my sense of her in Post-Crisis where she was often doing her own stuff but worked a lot with Bruce and Dick and was there with Bruce when Dick was gone. 



> I don't like Batman at the center of all the relationships. In the 1970s, she was much more friendly and worked much more often with Robin. I liked Spoiler working with Tim, and not with Batman, too.


Batman's the main character and the franchise center, I think it makes sense he'd be the center of the character relationships in some form or another. 



> I kind of like the idea of Barbara becoming Bruce's main partner after Dick leaves to become Nightwing. Kind of like DCAU, but strictly platonic. It's why I don't really see the need for another Robin after Dick leaves. 
> 
> But I'd like that to be balanced out with the pre-COIE stuff where she was more independent and self taught instead of actually being trained by Bruce. And definitely no him revealing his ID to her "when she's ready," have her figure it out on her own.


I think that was more or less true Post-Crisis. 

I did like how he revealed his identity to her by showing her his parents grave in _Batgirl: Year One_ and she finally "got" Batman.

----------


## Agent Z

> There were a lot of issues with Tom in Wonder Woman 
> 
> And I clarified I was discussing comics for a reason :P


Yeah, obviously.

If it worked for the movies, I don't see why it wouldn't work for the comics. Being too heroic was not the reason people hated Tom Tressor in Wonder Woman.

Hell, going by your logic, Barbara being heroic for the sake of it isn't a problem because she does stand out among the Batfamily in that regard. The only other member that fits that description is Tim and he was created long after Barbara debuted.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yeah, obviously.
> 
> If it worked for the movies, I don't see why it wouldn't work for the comics. Being too heroic was not the reason people hated Tom Tressor in Wonder Woman.
> 
> Hell, going by your logic, Barbara being heroic for the sake of it isn't a problem because she does stand out among the Batfamily in that regard. The only other member that fits that description is Tim and he was created long after Barbara debuted.


Because in a movie, an actor can use their charisma to sell any character, and they only have to do it for a short amount of time in ONE story.

In comics, characters need to stand out for many stories, in actions and written dialogue. In Suicide Squad, Tressor stood in contrast to the likes of Deadshot and even anti-heroes like Rick Flag. Eventually, his plotline climaxed with him threatening to beat the hell out of Waller, to her face.

Somehow, I doubt Diana gave him cause to make threats like that  :Wink: 

Comic characters need contrast, and they need a hook. Tim is the family Spock, joining to balance out Batman's darkness. And a big part of his arc was that he was the least capable of the Batclan (at least when introduced)

----------


## marhawkman

> Of course, to be fair, that was a much late retcon that changed what Nightwing was on Krypton.  Which was quite annoying. Though I liked Chris.


"Chris Kent" aka Lor-Zod?  Funny thing.. didn't he come AFTER Karen Starr's tenure as Nightwing?  Not sure if any of the older books used the bat-monster look for Nightwing before the one where Powergirl went to Kandor.  But again... I'm not sure what actual level of retconning the nature of Nightwing was.  I didn't read any of the actual OLD stories where he came up.  I did however draw a diagram after doing research on the wiki.
NightwingDiagram.jpg
I don't think it has literally EVERY user though.



> I just don't really agree. Being a hero because one wants to be hero, to save people or even not as a calling but as way to both do good and have fun is perfectly fine with me.   I like it much better than being motivated by tragedy (a little of that for variety is fine, but it's so overdone now an annoying retconned onto characters like Barry). That that hero be called "Batgirl" isn't really important, but Barbara did it because of circumstance. It certainly made more sense to me that Steph sacrificing the identity that she made for herself to take on someone else's (I'm one of the few Steph fans that much preferred her as Spoiler and found Batgirl to be a demotion).  The only reasons for Cass to be Batgirl (instead of use another name) is because of a sort inheritance aspect from Barbara and Bruce, both of whom she'd only fairly recently met.


This reminds me of Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe.  Oracle was like "and this is why you DON'T want to be Batgirl"... not that it really made much difference.  The only real change was that "Charlie" decided to use the moniker "Misfit" instead.



> Absolutely.
> 
> Liked him better then.  Several human heroes are so OP now that they barely pass as human.  Of course, I'm against a lot of the adding power to the non-human ones, too.  I can't think of any that have had varied power levels that I prefer at the highest power level I've seen (at least off the top of my head).  But that's just one of those things - some people like God-tier powers more than others.


the issue is that DC's approach to team up tries to make the "weaker" heroes look good.. every single time...

It's fine having Batman NOT beat up evil Kryptonians and do other stuff while Superman does the fist fights.  :Stick Out Tongue:   But the writers apparently feel it would make Batman look weak...  to abstain from fighting people who can literally throw BUILDINGS at him.

----------


## Frontier

> Because in a movie, an actor can use their charisma to sell any character, and they only have to do it for a short amount of time in ONE story.
> 
> In comics, characters need to stand out for many stories, in actions and written dialogue. In Suicide Squad, Tressor stood in contrast to the likes of Deadshot and even anti-heroes like Rick Flag. Eventually, his plotline climaxed with him threatening to beat the hell out of Waller, to her face.
> 
> Somehow, I doubt Diana gave him cause to make threats like that 
> 
> Comic characters need contrast, and they need a hook. Tim is the family Spock, joining to balance out Batman's darkness. And a big part of his arc was that he was the least capable of the Batclan (at least when introduced)


To be honest Tim never really seemed that incapable, insofar as we saw more intimate build up to him getting up to prime Robin level than what we usually get.

----------


## marhawkman

> To be honest Tim never really seemed that incapable, insofar as we saw more intimate build up to him getting up to prime Robin level than what we usually get.


Yeah I always saw Tim as "Robin: the newbie".  He's not bad just a rookie.

----------


## marhawkman

After thinking about this more... I really wanna see a story where they somehow come up with an excuse for EVERYONE who has ever used the name Nightwing to show up.   There's enough of them that I doubt that ANY of them has met all of the others.  Kal-El for example, knows of or has met in person, Van-Zee, Lor-Zod, Karen Starr, and Richard Grayson.  But how much does he know about Cheyenne Freemont or Jason Todd?

Also, Richard Grayson, knows Kal-El, knows who Van-Zee is, has probably met Karen Starr, knows Cheyenne Freemont better than he wanted to, and has probably heard of Lor-Zod's existence.  But does he know Karen Starr used to be Nightwing?  Has he actually MET Lor-Zod?

And so on.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Arsenal

The Batfam should always be tailored around Batman. It’s his franchise and the family is built around him so it only makes sense for him to be the center of it. It doesn’t necessarily matter whose under the cowl, be it Bruce, Dick, Terry, Damian, Fox or the inevitable Joker run. 
 with the only exception being when the “Batman” is an illegitimate one (such as Gordon’s midlife crisis where he was never recognized in universe as being the Batman).

----------


## Tzigone

> "Chris Kent" aka Lor-Zod? Funny thing.. didn't he come AFTER Karen Starr's tenure as Nightwing?


I just mentioned him because he was associated with Nightwing-God, but I still like him. I just meant that Nightwing and godness was retconned in long after Dick Grayson took the title of Nightwing. At least, as far as I know.  I've never been interested in Power Girl.  Not saying I dislike her - just never cared enough about her to read about her, so only see her when she shows up elsewhere.




> The Batfam should always be tailored around Batman. Its his franchise and the family is built around him so it only makes sense for him to be the center of it. It doesnt necessarily matter whose under the cowl, be it Bruce, Dick, Terry, Damian, Fox or the inevitable Joker run.


I understand the perceptive, but frankly, I've always liked other characters more than him, and would rather their stories been about them, not him. About progressing them as characters, and not sacrificing them to his story/character needs.  That's why I like them to grow out of his shadow, do their own things, have strong connections outside of him, etc.  As long as they are in his books/city/sphere of influence, they are likely to serve his needs first, even in their own books, and that's not okay. That's, to some degree to me*, what civilian supporting casts and sidekicks are for. When they have their own books, they need to be treated as heroes in their own rights, with their own narrative needs coming first, not his.

* I say "to a degree" because I think consistency in characterization of supporting casts matters too/  They shouldn't behave way OOC because the main character needs them too.  And I think they should have their own lives (even if we don't see them, we should have a sense they exist). The characters may only exist to serve the main character, but they shouldn't behave as though they know that.

----------


## Arsenal

I didn't mean that they should only exist in service to the Bat (lord knows I don't want that) and not have their own lives or adventures. I more of meant that "who" and "what" the Batfam is should be crafted around the Bat (whoever it is that's under the cowl) opposed to being an umbrella that every single Bat related character somehow falls under.

----------


## marhawkman

> I just mentioned him because he was associated with Nightwing-God, but I still like him. I just meant that Nightwing and godness was retconned in long after Dick Grayson took the title of Nightwing. At least, as far as I know.  I've never been interested in Power Girl.  Not saying I dislike her - just never cared enough about her to read about her, so only see her when she shows up elsewhere.


I was asking because all you said was "Chris" and I wasn't really sure which one.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I think Lor-Zod/Chris Kent is a cool character myself.  I tend to use the name Lor-zod because well... it's kind of important?  Also there's that other guy too now.

Well Powergirl as Nightwing was, IIRC, technically a Supergirl comic book  :Stick Out Tongue:   See, there's the Nightwing/Flamebird duo, and Supergirl was Flamebird.  The two of them were visiting Kandor.

the way I understand it, and I'm not 100% sure, the name was always said to be an English translation of a Kryptonian deity's name.... But.... I think that the actual deity never actually appeared except as a name in the old stories.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . the way I understand it, and I'm not 100% sure, the name was always said to be an English translation of a Kryptonian deity's name.... But.... I think that the actual deity never actually appeared except as a name in the old stories.


I just thought they were Kryptonian birds that were similar to a bat and robin?

(Of course, that was from back in the 1960s.)

----------


## Drako

> "Chris Kent" aka Lor-Zod?  Funny thing.. didn't he come AFTER Karen Starr's tenure as Nightwing?  Not sure if any of the older books used the bat-monster look for Nightwing before the one where Powergirl went to Kandor.  But again... I'm not sure what actual level of retconning the nature of Nightwing was.  I didn't read any of the actual OLD stories where he came up.  I did however draw a diagram after doing research on the wiki.
> NightwingDiagram.jpg
> I don't think it has literally EVERY user though.
> This reminds me of Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe.  Oracle was like "and this is why you DON'T want to be Batgirl"... not that it really made much difference.  The only real change was that "Charlie" decided to use the moniker "Misfit" instead.
> the issue is that DC's approach to team up tries to make the "weaker" heroes look good.. every single time...
> 
> It's fine having Batman NOT beat up evil Kryptonians and do other stuff while Superman does the fist fights.   But the writers apparently feel it would make Batman look weak...  to abstain from fighting people who can literally throw BUILDINGS at him.


I completely forgot that Terry wore the Nightwing costume for a issue in one of thoses Batman Beyond books.

This isn't a controversial opinion, but i'm sure Dick Grayson AND Jason Todd fans would rather forget anything Bruce Jones related, including Cheyenne Freemont.

I just realized that Jason is the only one who at one point used all the regular personas of other former Robins. 
Nightwing in the Bruce Jones arc and Red Robin in Countdown. He was also "Batman" in Battle for the Cowl.

----------


## Arsenal

The less said about TentaTodd the better.

----------


## marhawkman

> This isn't a controversial opinion, but i'm sure Dick Grayson AND Jason Todd fans would rather forget anything Bruce Jones related, including Cheyenne Freemont.


Hmm... the reason I remember the Cheyenne Freemont story so vividly was the way it ended.  The writer is like "and she safely retired never to be seen again".  O-o'  A character with genuine super powers... in a Bat-related book.... who dressed up as Nightwing... and quits doing super stuff... because she decided to leave it to regular Humans?  Yeah Cheyenne wasn't a master martial artist, she was a telekinetic.  She'd fit in rather nicely with the X-Men.... oh wait... this is Bludhaven.



> I just thought they were Kryptonian birds that were similar to a bat and robin?
> 
> (Of course, that was from back in the 1960s.)


based solely on that page? hmm... seems shaky.

----------


## Pohzee

> This isn't a controversial opinion, but i'm sure Dick Grayson AND Jason Todd fans would rather forget anything Bruce Jones related, including Cheyenne Freemont.
> 
> I just realized that Jason is the only one who at one point used all the regular personas of other former Robins. 
> Nightwing in the Bruce Jones arc and Red Robin in Countdown. He was also "Batman" in Battle for the Cowl.


I wouldn't say *anything* Bruce Jones related. I enjoy Scarecrow Year One a lot.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by MajorHoy
> 
> 
> I just thought they were Kryptonian birds that were similar to a bat and robin?
> 
> (Of course, that was from back in the 1960s.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, it was based on the story that image was from, which I own in an issue of *Jimmy Olsen* that reprinted it.

The story was originally from *Superman #158* (January 1963):

----------


## marhawkman

> Actually, it was based on the story that image was from, which I own in an issue of *Jimmy Olsen* that reprinted it.
> 
> The story was originally from *Superman #158* (January 1963):


Ah OK. It does look like they're simple wildlife names yeah.

----------


## Gaius

> Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".
> 
> You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.
> 
> This goes for his girlfriend as well.


Building more off this and what others have said but, for the most part, Joker is a better character done better in other mediums when there's an actor giving a performance and usually with the restrictions those mediums come with. There are exceptions where he's just as much as a self-important green-haired Manson wannabe like his comics counterpart (_Injustice_, DCEU, _Joker_) but as I said those are exceptions whereas that's the rule in modern comics with him.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Much like Batman himself, modern Joker is a pale imitation of his Bronze Age iteration.

----------


## Nite-Wing

Modern interpretations of Joker like TDK and Joker are more in line with what I want from the character
His funny clown gimmick is nice but being an agent of chaos and anarchy who inspires a movement with his crimes intentional or unintentional is a foundation of the character now 

I would like to see a multiverse story where modern incarnations of Joker react to his golden age clown boy gimmick

----------


## Alan2099

Joker isn't even a character anymore.  He's just an excuse for shock events.  They've gone out of their way to say Joker doesn't have any consistent personality or backstory that he remembers, he just goes out and murders people horribly.

----------


## Fergus

I like Jason Todd's recent look especially them ditching the guns [what is the point of a gun when his bullets aren't real]

Now they just need to ditch the crowbar. Jason's using the weapon that was used to kill him seems off . Time to move away from his death.

----------


## Mutant God

Ryan Wilder should be an ARGUS agent and maybe a Wonder Woman character, I think shes a combination of the New 52 versions of Amanda Waller (young and skinny/muscular) and Etta Candy (black lesbian agent)

----------


## MajorHoy

> Ryan Wilder should be an ARGUS agent and maybe a Wonder Woman character, I think shes a combination of the New 52 versions of Amanda Waller (young and skinny/muscular) and Etta Candy (black lesbian agent)


Describing Etta Candy as a "black lesbian agent" really doesn't work for an older reader like me who read enough Golden Age reprinted stories:

WOO-WOO!

----------


## Gaius

This is the best Batman animated theme. Don't even come at me with your DCAU.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> This is the best Batman animated theme. Don't even come at me with your DCAU.


Rino Romano was my Batman  :Wink: .

----------


## godisawesome

I dont know if I ever put this here before, but...

... Batman: Arkham Origins has the best story and character arcs of the Arkham series, and its not even a contest. Hell, Batman in that game has a greater character arc and more fleshed out and likeable yet flawed personality than he does in the Rocksteadys games... and Roger Craig Smith thus gets a meatier and more dramatically satisfying performance of Batman to deliver.

----------


## Restingvoice

I don't think any of the Batman games have good stories... low standard... but I didn't pick them up for the story

----------


## Mutant God

> Describing Etta Candy as a "black lesbian agent" really doesn't work for an older reader like me who read enough Golden Age reprinted stories:
> 
> WOO-WOO!


Yes its almost different characters

----------


## mathew101281

> This is the best Batman animated theme. Don't even come at me with your DCAU.


The Batman had its moments but it suffered from being too different. Especially on the heels of the extremely popular JLU. I remember peoples reaction to the Joker redesign. Speaking of which, does anyone else think that the Joker in the Snyder cut kind of looks like the Joker from the Batman.?

----------


## Gaius

> The Batman had its moments but it suffered from being too different. Especially on the heels of the extremely popular JLU. I remember people’s reaction to the Joker redesign. Speaking of which, does anyone else think that the Joker in the Snyder cut kind of looks like the Joker from the Batman.?


That's another thing. _The Batman_'s  original Joker design is great and Richardson is a great voice for the Joker, up there with Hamil.

This show also has the best version of Clayface (Ethan Bennett) and the best designs for Mr. Freeze and Firefly.

----------


## Agent Z

5 Seasons and a t.v. movie doesn't seem like much suffering to me. It had trouble finding its footing at first but it did become popular.

----------


## Agent Z

> That's another thing. _The Batman_'s  original Joker design is great and Richardson is a great voice for the Joker.


Richardson's Joker shows that he is a much more versatile actor than he one might think. Sadly, he too often gets cast as a villain with a scary voice or the big guy among the heroes.

----------


## Gaius

> Richardson's Joker shows that he is a much more versatile actor than he one might think. Sadly, he too often gets cast as a villain with a scary voice or the big guy among the heroes.


Yep, would love to see him voice Joker again or another villain who doesn't fit his traditional casting.

----------


## Frontier

> That's another thing. _The Batman_'s  original Joker design is great and Richardson is a great voice for the Joker, up there with Hamil.
> 
> This show also has the best version of Clayface (Ethan Bennett) and the best designs for Mr. Freeze and Firefly.


Are we talking original design as in the straighjacket look?

I agree about Firefly. 



> Richardson's Joker shows that he is a much more versatile actor than he one might think. Sadly, he too often gets cast as a villain with a scary voice or the big guy among the heroes.


He did win an Emmy for his Joker performance  :Smile: .

----------


## Gaius

> Are we talking original design as in the straighjacket look?
> 
> I agree about Firefly. 
> 
> He did win an Emmy for his Joker performance .


Yep, the straightjacket look with the Doc Brown hair was a great look.

----------


## I'm a Fish

I liked how deep Joker's voice could get in _The Batman_.  Usually Batman has the deeper voice, it was unsettling hearing a clown make jokes with a voice that could shake a car with it's bass.

He was also a lot more animalistic in design and movement.  I didn't like it but I didn't hate it either.  It was cool he could actually leap around and be a physical challenge for Batman though.

----------


## Alan2099

I didn't much care for the character designs in The Batman.  

But while we're on the subject of cartoons, I think Batman Brave and the Bold doesn't get nearly enough respect.  

The Bat-Mite episodes alone where just priceless.  
Plus there was an episode where they told Batman's origin and used Adam West and Julie Newar as Bruce Wayne's parents.  On top of that the same episodes had Kevin Conroy and Mark Hammill appear in an episode that already had the Joker in it.  That's three times the Batman and twice the Joker!

----------


## I'm a Fish

> I didn't much care for the character designs in The Batman.  
> 
> But while we're on the subject of cartoons, I think Batman Brave and the Bold doesn't get nearly enough respect.  
> 
> The Bat-Mite episodes alone where just priceless.  
> Plus there was an episode where they told Batman's origin and used Adam West and Julie Newar as Bruce Wayne's parents.  On top of that the same episodes had Kevin Conroy and Mark Hammill appear in an episode that already had the Joker in it.  That's three times the Batman and twice the Joker!


I love Diedrich Bader as Batman's voice and I wish they would give him more serious rolls from time-to-time.  The Harley Quinn show of all things proved he can do it.

----------


## Gaius

> I liked how deep Joker's voice could get in _The Batman_.  Usually Batman has the deeper voice, it was unsettling hearing a clown make jokes with a voice that could shake a car with it's bass.
> 
> He was also a lot more animalistic in design and movement.  I didn't like it but I didn't hate it either.  It was cool he could actually leap around and be a physical challenge for Batman though.


Yeah, _The Batman_’s Joker is the only time I found the “Joker’s craziness makes him a physical challenge” argument to hold any water.

----------


## Frontier

> I liked how deep Joker's voice could get in _The Batman_.  Usually Batman has the deeper voice, it was unsettling hearing a clown make jokes with a voice that could shake a car with it's bass.
> 
> He was also a lot more animalistic in design and movement.  I didn't like it but I didn't hate it either.  It was cool he could actually leap around and be a physical challenge for Batman though.


And that was ironically closer to Kevin Michael Richardson's higher pitched voice  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

I remember with _The Batman_ where it seemed like all the main Rogues got turned into martial arts masters, with probably the most egregious examples being Joker and Penguin.



> Yeah, _The Batman_’s Joker is the only time I found the “*Joker’s craziness makes him a physical challenge*” argument to hold any water.


I only really see that cited when it comes to how Cass struggled with The Joker because she couldn't read his body movement at all so she didn't know what to do.

----------


## I'm a Fish

> And that was ironically closer to Kevin Michael Richardson's higher pitched voice . 
> 
> I remember with _The Batman_ where it seemed like all the main Rogues got turned into martial arts masters, with probably the most egregious examples being Joker and Penguin.
> 
> *I only really see that cited when it comes to how Cass struggled with The Joker because she couldn't read his body movement at all so she didn't know what to do.*


Yeah, the Joker has never really been physically imposing since he's usually a twig that has less muscle then my grandma.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But I think that just makes him a better contrast to Batman since Batman is usually depicted as a towering mass of muscle and it makes the writer come up with unique premises and gadgets the Joker needs to make to fight him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I only really see that cited when it comes to how Cass struggled with The Joker because she couldn't read his body movement at all so she didn't know what to do.


Unpredictability seems to be the reasonable Cass weakness. Joker being random and Jason pulling a surprise weapon are the times she got thrown off.

----------


## John Venus

His Joker makes you wish they will allow Kevin to flex his acting muscles more instead of constantly voicing 'the big scary guy'.  




> I remember with _The Batman_ where it seemed like all the main Rogues got turned into martial arts masters, with probably the most egregious examples being Joker and Penguin.
> 
> I only really see that cited when it comes to how Cass struggled with The Joker because she couldn't read his body movement at all so she didn't know what to do.


I remember all the complaints about that. I didn't mind martial arts Joker because it felt in character for him to have a style was wild, unpredictable, monkey style to it.  Penguin leaping 30 ft into the air is another matter though but I didn't hate it.  

I'm just slightly disappointed that with all the martial arts it didn't occur to them to introduce Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Cass Cain, David Cain, Bronze Tiger and other marital arts characters.

----------


## mystical41

batman stopped being an interesting character a long time ago. Since now he is this emo-isolated man that tends to act like a morron to everybody. And can go from struggling with bane. To trading blows with Darkseid and finding a plan to stop Jesus Christ in 3 seconds if the plot needs it.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I liked the Batpack from TT Academy and hope they pop up in the batbooks at some point.

----------


## Gaius

_The Batman_'s use of a high-tech cellphone that's hacked into police scanners should replace the Bat-signal.

----------


## godisawesome

> _The Batman_'s use of a high-tech cellphone that's hacked into police scanners should replace the Bat-signal.


I kind of like that, but I think it might be even cooler if they make some particular bat-symbol a “summoning spell” for Batman - like people in Gotham figure out that if a camera or computer somewhere sees a particular type fo Bat-symbol, it’ll somehow end up getting around to Batman. So people who need his help or want to talk to him use it in dramatic ways.

----------


## Primal Slayer

May not be controversial but the Batfam  is WAY TO BIG nowadays. It almost feels diluted to a degree.

----------


## Astralabius

> May not be controversial but the Batfam  is WAY TO BIG nowadays. It almost feels diluted to a degree.


There are too many members and almost none of them are even working with Bruce right now. Instead he's working together with Harley and Ghostmaker for some reason. The batfamily doesn't feel like a family anymore.

----------


## RobinGA

I would like a Batman without relying so much on the armor, the gadgets, the amazing algorithm.  The Batman 
who was smart, had a tremendous knowledge of martial arts, but lived by his wits and cunning.  That is the 
character people fell in love with at the beginning.  The Hollywoodization of Batman has been a serious problem.  

But this all runs in stages, a more sleeker Batman will probably return in time.  Some people probably like the 
Batman as a human tank.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> May not be controversial but the Batfam  is WAY TO BIG nowadays. It almost feels diluted to a degree.


This is why I just prefer Dick and Babs as the Bat-Family. Bruce completely on his own forever would get stale, but a too big Bat-family runs into this problem. 

Not that they can't be good characters or have worth for themselves that attract fans, it's just that it throws off my personal preference for Bruce's setup.

----------


## godisawesome

> This is why I just prefer Dick and Babs as the Bat-Family. Bruce completely on his own forever would get stale, but a too big Bat-family runs into this problem. 
> 
> Not that they can't be good characters or have worth for themselves that attract fans, it's just that it throws off my personal preference for Bruce's setup.


I suppose my counterpoint controversial opinion would be that if someone wanted to limit the Batfamily to three members… Dick as Robin and Babs as Batgirl is one of the more limiting and blander options you could pursue. Those two characters really only achieved their maximum appeal as Nightwing and as Oracle (or, as an Oracle/Batgirl hybrid), and even then, if limiting it to three characters was the rule… then honesty, Damian and Cass would be the better options. I am blatantly biased towards Cass, I know that, but that’s because I think she has the most interesting elements for a limited Bat-family, and I’m actually a Tim Drake fan first among the Robin who prefers Jason and Dick to Damian, but Damian offers more interesting dynamics and selling points in a limited story.

Dick and Babs are at their best when they can coexist with multiple successors and allies; as sidekicks, they’re actually kind of bland, while allowing them to be mentors and lieutenants works much better.

----------


## Aahz

> May not be controversial but the Batfam  is WAY TO BIG nowadays. It almost feels diluted to a degree.


And I feel that a lot of the newer members are kind of "infringing" on the niches of already established ones.

- Strix was pretty much a Cassandra Cain copy
- Talon a former circus performer with a connection to Court of Owl, isn't that a little bit similar to Dick
- Luke Fox, a tech genius from a wealthy background that has somehow to balance being a Superhero with his family life, that is kind of what Tim was pre identity crisis
- Duke Thomas,  teen genius/detective with parents that were harmed by a supervillain, similar to Tim back when his father was in coma
- Bao Pham, troubled teen running around killing criminals, espacally the Joker, that's kind of Jason's thing
- Ghosthunter, ally/friend of Bruce with a pretty wanky moral code and a "Space Ship", that's kind of Jason's thing (Ok they never really allowed Jason to use any of the tech from his own book in Batman stories ...)

I kind of feel the Batfamily would be in a much better place when they would use the established characters more, instead of creating new characters that fill similar roles.

And there are way to many characters who where killed or crippled by the Joker, had him kill or cripple their parents or both.

----------


## Micael

Batman burning a giant pile of money was one of the biggest tone deaf moments in the character's history. Even if it's dirty trafficking money a BILLIONAIRE should not be doing that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> And I feel that a lot of the newer members are kind of "infringing" on the niches of already established ones.
> 
> - Strix was pretty much a Cassandra Cain copy
> - Talon a former circus performer with a connection to Court of Owl, isn't that a little bit similar to Dick
> - Luke Fox, a tech genius from a wealthy background that has somehow to balance being a Superhero with his family life, that is kind of what Tim was pre identity crisis
> - Duke Thomas,  teen genius/detective with parents that were harmed by a supervillain, similar to Tim back when his father was in coma
> - Bao Pham, troubled teen running around killing criminals, espacally the Joker, that's kind of Jason's thing
> - Ghosthunter, ally/friend of Bruce with a pretty wanky moral code and a "Space Ship", that's kind of Jason's thing (Ok they never really allowed Jason to use any of the tech from his own book in Batman stories ...)
> 
> ...


Some of those they can do because the former characters don't do it anymore. 
Tim's lost his family, so he doesn't have that status quo anymore, so now it's Luke's
Jason no longer kills, he's not interested in Joker anymore unless Joker starts shit, so Bao Pham now fills that role. 
Adding my own, Harley's anti-hero-ing so Punchline's now The Joker's Girlfriend.

Strix is a special case since they couldn't use Cass Cain back then, but now that she's back no one uses Strix.

I say Ghost-Maker still has a unique position because all of Bruce's best friends turn villains. So he's like a good Hush or Dent. He's just... kinda... unexplainably annoying...

Calvin Rose is the one I'm genuinely confused. It's like they realize they can't really tie down Nightwing to The Court since he's much bigger than that niche so they make up a new character to fill it, the niche being "what if Nightwing _is_ Talon"... and then he disappears too. Good job.

----------


## Tzigone

> Some of those they can do because the former characters don't do it anymore.
> Tim's lost his family, so he doesn't have that status quo anymore, so now it's Luke's
> Jason no longer kills, he's not interested in Joker anymore unless Joker starts shit, so Bao Pham now fills that role.
> Adding my own, Harley's anti-hero-ing so Punchline's now The Joker's Girlfriend.


To me that sounds like it creates the problem (for Bao Pham and Punchline, anyway), that these new characters either get stuck in a copycat role or they grow beyond it, and then it's time to repeat the character/storyline again. And it crowds an already crowded field no matter what.

I did prefer the days when Tim had a family, though.

----------


## marhawkman

> Batman burning a giant pile of money was one of the biggest tone deaf moments in the character's history. Even if it's dirty trafficking money a BILLIONAIRE should not be doing that.


Yeah really give it to charity or something....

----------


## Aahz

> Tim's lost his family, so he doesn't have that status quo anymore, so now it's Luke's


He got it back after Flashpoint, so it could have easly been his satus quo again.
I mean nightwing is also back in Blüdheaven, despite that city was turned into an radioactive wasteland pre flashpoint.




> Jason no longer kills, he's not interested in Joker anymore unless Joker starts shit, so Bao Pham now fills that role.


When I look how his story went sofar, Bao will also stop killing soon, and at some point very soon he will also stop going after the Joker (for the same real world reason Jason had to stop).
And they are still doing stories with Jason going after the Joker (Three Jokers and the Suicide Squad mini).




> Calvin Rose is the one I'm genuinely confused. It's like they realize they can't really tie down Nightwing to The Court since he's much bigger than that niche so they make up a new character to fill it, the niche being "what if Nightwing _is_ Talon"... and then he disappears too. Good job.


They still did a lot of Court of the Owls stuff with Nightwing, and at the time Talon was created Dick going after the Court of the Owl would have been probaly way bigger than what actually happend in his own book (iirc that was him moving to Chicago).

----------


## Restingvoice

> He got it back after Flashpoint, so it could have easly been his satus quo again.
> I mean nightwing is also back in Blüdheaven, despite that city was turned into an radioactive wasteland pre flashpoint.
> 
> When I look how his story went sofar, Bao will also stop killing soon, and at some point very soon he will also stop going after the Joker (for the same real world reason Jason had to stop).
> And they are still doing stories with Jason going after the Joker (Three Jokers and the Suicide Squad mini).
> 
> They still did a lot of Court of the Owls stuff with Nightwing, and at the time Talon was created Dick going after the Court of the Owl would have been probaly way bigger than what actually happend in his own book (iirc that was him moving to Chicago).


Maybe they don't bring Tim's status back because they've considered it

Then Bao's not gonna stick around very long. He's gonna disappear if he's not doing his namesake. 

You know what... it's the other way around. They didn't wanna use Dick with Owls to make a place for Calvin, but after that didn't work out, they use Dick again. Maybe that's why they couldn't use Calvin again, they couldn't find a place for him anymore.

----------


## Aahz

Now with Tynion leaving it will be anyway interesting to which characters from his and Snyders Run are going to stick around.

----------


## redmax99

> Now with Tynion leaving it will be anyway interesting to which characters from his and Snyders Run are going to stick around.


the only one that better stick around is duke

----------


## Restingvoice

Duke's definitely sticking around
Punchline's gonna stick around
The Gardener will stick around but more as Harley/Ivy supporting cast

I can see Ghost-Maker leaving Gotham immediately and forgotten ^^
Like, immediately. The moment the new Batman writer writes their first issue. 
Unless they're a fan.

----------


## Aahz

> Duke's definitely sticking around


They seem to have planed something for the near future question is what happens afterwards, and if he will do more then just appearing once in a while.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Duke's definitely sticking around
> Punchline's gonna stick around
> The Gardener will stick around but more as Harley/Ivy supporting cast
> 
> I can see Ghost-Maker leaving Gotham immediately and forgotten ^^
> Like, immediately. The moment the new Batman writer writes their first issue. 
> Unless they're a fan.


What about Clownhunter?

----------


## Restingvoice

> What about Clownhunter?


Uhh.. showing up in Joker related stories, repeating the same story Batman and Red Hood or Damian has until someone actually interested in developing him... or if they're lazy, makes him give up, or get killed by Joker.

----------


## TheRay

Batman's daughter could be brought in to the main timeline as "Breakout".

----------


## Will Evans

> Batman's daughter could be brought in to the main timeline as "Breakout".


Huh? Did I miss something about Helena Wayne?

----------


## TheRay

Batman’s _other_ daughter…

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Batman’s _other_ daughter…


Anastacia from Injustice comics?

----------


## TheRay

….yes……..……..

----------


## Aahz

> What about Clownhunter?


That's really going to depend on the next writer.

To me it feels anyway that for all characters appart from Dick, Barbara, Damian, Jason and Selina, if and how much they appear depends on the writers.

----------


## Robanker

In my reading, assume every new character is forgotten the run after next unless they appear. So far, Duke is the holdover that will endure. The rest? We'll see after the next writer. Usually they last at least one change before being dropped.

Unless they're a love interest. Then they die or turn evil.

----------


## Aahz

> In my reading, assume every new character is forgotten the run after next unless they appear. So far, Duke is the holdover that will endure.


JHard to say, untill recently Snyder was still one of the most important wrters at DC and Tynion was a pretty frequent co-writer of him.

Now with both gone we will have to see if he sticks.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t see Duke going anywhere. And I mean that in both ways. They aren’t going to get rid of him, but at the same time I think they moved on with what they were hoping they could accomplish with him on to Jace. And see him as the better foothold. So I think Duke will be around, but that’s more or less the extent of it. He’ll just be around. Best he can kind of hope for is a writer will adopt him and sparks something that gets DC and readers to takes notice. I no longer think he’s much of a priority anymore though.

----------


## Will Evans

Not so much an opinion as a belief.

I wonder if in the 90s the Titans were going to give Nightwing a bastard child through Mirage, but the Bat office put a stop to it.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Now with Tynion leaving it will be anyway interesting to which characters from his and Snyders Run are going to stick around.


I want to see Punchline stick around. I like her design and character has a lot of potential.

----------


## Aahz

> They aren’t going to get rid of him, but at the same time I think they moved on with what they were hoping they could accomplish with him on to Jace.


Wonder what they will do if Jace also doesn't succed.

He is when I'm counting correctly allready the 6th male black Batfamily member they tried to establlish in the last 20 years or so. And the first 3 they completly stopped using (or killed of in one case) where imo actually the more unique ones...

----------


## Will Evans

> Wonder what they will do if Jace also doesn't succed.
> 
> He is when I'm counting correctly allready the 6th male black Batfamily member they tried to establlish in the last 20 years or so. And the first 3 they completly stopped using (or killed of in one case) where imo actually the more unique ones...


Let’s see:
1. Orpheus (killed)
2. Michael Lane
3. David Zawimbe
4. Duke Thomas 
5. Luke Fox
6. Tim Jace Fox

Yep, the math checks out.

----------


## TheRay

Bruce dates a guy.

----------


## Marik Swift

Barbara's dynamic with Dick was a 100 times better when she was 7-8 years older than him.

----------


## Tzigone

> Barbara's dynamic with Dick was a 100 times better when she was 7-8 years older than him.


I prefer her older, as she was back in the bronze age (I don't feel they interacted all that much in the 1960s), too.  I do ship them, but them as adults, so the age difference isn't an issue. I enjoyed the Dixon dynamic, except for being annoyed at more weight that appropriate given to their pre-COIE dynamic (well, and I think he was the one that added the juvenile facility/angst to Dick's background that also was irritating).  And, of course, Dick used to be more mature than he sometimes (not always) has been in the post-2001 era.  I strongly prefer the Barbara who was not a student/protege of Batman's - I don't like her role shifted to his student/him as her boss in background (or the very changed power dynamic where he knew her identity and she didn't know his). And don't like Bruce funding her Oracle/BoP forays, either.  She, despite wearing a bat on her chest, was more independent from the Bruce back in the 1970s.  While I do enjoy her and Dick together, both are better suited to becoming more independent and removed from Batman (as each has been at different times in the past) to me.

I don't like Bruce as the satellite to them all. In the 1960s, Barbara wasn't that very linked to Bruce or Dick in personal - more spinoff than sidekick, they didn't know each other's identities or socialize, etc. When a deeper relationship formed in the 1970s, it was between Dick and Barbara, with them having a closer dynamic than Bruce and Barbara.  Likewise, I liked Steph as primarily associated with Tim, and more distant from the other Bats (excepting Cass, when she later came along) back in her original Spoiler days.  I don't think they all need to have deep connections to each other, and I particularly don't think the connection to Bruce needs to be the strongest/longest/most important to each of them. For some of them, yes, but not all.

----------


## Aahz

Looking at the announced "Robin and Batman" series, I really think they should do something like this with Jason Todd.

He is out of the Robins the only one that never got at least a Robin Mini series, or back up stories series, and even in the pages of the main Batman comic he didn't got post crisis much focus outside of his origin story and Death in the Family. (The pre crisis version got imo more focus).

----------


## Zaresh

> Looking at the announced "Robin and Batman" series, I really think they should do something like this with Jason Todd.
> 
> He is out of the Robins the only one that never got at least a Robin Mini series, or back up stories series, and even in the pages of the main Batman comic he didn't got post crisis much focus outside of his origin story and Death in the Family. (The pre crisis version got imo more focus).


At least when they show flashbacks, they tend to be really good. Case in point, the latest Batman Urban Legends story. But I can remember also recently the flashback in Rebirth RHATO #26, and the short story in the Robin Special about Bruce's clock by Winnick.

----------


## Tzigone

> Looking at the announced "Robin and Batman" series, I really think they should do something like this with Jason Todd.
> 
> He is out of the Robins the only one that never got at least a Robin Mini series, or back up stories series, and even in the pages of the main Batman comic he didn't got post crisis much focus outside of his origin story and Death in the Family. (The pre crisis version got imo more focus).




I'm just afraid they'd back-project Red Hood (or even just-before-death) Jason instead of using Jason as he was actually depicted for most of Post-COIE. I really hate when they do that - backproject current characterizations/relationship conflicts into the pasts of characters when they weren't actually like that in stories published in the era the story is set in.

----------


## Marik Swift

Barbara and Stephanie shouldn't know Bruce's identity.

----------


## The tall man

> Barbara and Stephanie shouldn't know Bruce's identity.


I agree with this, also will add that Damian should be revealed to not be Bruce's son and the identity of Batman should not be a mantle to be passed around, it should end with Bruce. Also the bat symbol should not be something that anyone can just claim and slap on their chest.

----------


## Tzigone

> Barbara and Stephanie shouldn't know Bruce's identity.


Can't agree on Barbara. If she knows Dick's (and she should,  IMO), then she should know Bruce's simply because it logical.  I *really* hate the post-COIE or more modern versions where Bruce knows Barbara's identity and she doesn't know his.  I hate the power imbalance - a lot.  I'm okay with it for Steph, as I feel like that power imbalance and lack of regard for Steph's wants (and her in general), etc. is pretty relevant for her character and her history.  That's the way it was from the start, unlike with Barbara.

Have to admit, I am somewhat an old-school fan of heroes trusting each other (and them not turning bad), too, though. And of Batman when he was less paranoid. Not that he'd tell them right away or anything. But that he wouldn't mind them knowing after a few years of collaboration, as with the JL.

----------


## Marik Swift

> Can't agree on Barbara. If she knows Dick's (and she should,  IMO), then she should know Bruce's simply because it logical.  I *really* hate the post-COIE or more modern versions where Bruce knows Barbara's identity and she doesn't know his.  I hate the power imbalance - a lot.  I'm okay with it for Steph, as I feel like that power imbalance and lack of regard for Steph's wants (and her in general), etc. is pretty relevant for her character and her history.  That's the way it was from the start, unlike with Barbara.
> 
> Have to admit, I am somewhat an old-school fan of heroes trusting each other (and them not turning bad), too, though. And of Batman when he was less paranoid. Not that he'd tell them right away or anything. But that he wouldn't mind them knowing after a few years of collaboration, as with the JL.


I mean, logically everybody in Gotham should know Bruce is Batman, so wouldn't really say her knowing Dick means she'd know Bruce.

That said, I would say I think Barbara should know, but only after several years. Like I feel like he should have tried to tell her when she was Oracle (as that was definitely the best point to tell her), but at that point she had matured so much that it didn't matter to her and she opted not to know.

Lol, like in a geeky way I can see her rationalising it like a computer as keeping the firewall/his identity strong by not letting too many people know, including herself . Something which I think he would respect her even further for and tell her he'd gladly tell her whenever she pleases.

----------


## Micael

> I agree with this, also will add that Damian should be revealed to not be Bruce's son and the identity of Batman should not be a mantle to be passed around, it should end with Bruce. Also the bat symbol should not be something that anyone can just claim and slap on their chest.


What does revealing Damian to not be Bruce's son accomplish? They somewhat attempted that with the Batman vs Deathstroke story line and thank god they didn't actually go trough with it. Damian not being Bruce's child would kill the character.

----------


## Forlorn

> What does revealing Damian to not be Bruce's son accomplish? They somewhat attempted that with the Batman vs Deathstroke story line and thank god they didn't actually go trough with it. Damian not being Bruce's child would kill the character.


That and it would have made Talia being retconned into a rapist even more stupid than it already was.

----------


## Tzigone

> That said, I would say I think Barbara should know, but only after several years. Like I feel like he should have tried to tell her when she was Oracle (as that was definitely the best point to tell her), but at that point she had matured so much that it didn't matter to her and she opted not to know.


 The idea that Barbara wasn't mature enough at the start is just a flat-out insult to Barbara to me, and completely unacceptable.  Then again, I like her debuting as an adult, as she originally did.

I also don't see as more mature to choose not to know, either. It's a choice - knowing and not knowing both have advantages and risks to all of them.

----------


## Marik Swift

> The idea that Barbara wasn't mature enough at the start is just a flat-out insult to Barbara to me, and completely unacceptable.  Then again, I like her debuting as an adult, as she originally did.
> 
> I also don't see as more mature to choose not to know, either. It's a choice - knowing and not knowing both have advantages and risks to all of them.


Actually, I prefer her debuting as an adult as well (a few post ago I said she should be 7-8 years older than Dick).

I get what you mean though since I think Barbara is easily the most mature member of the Batfam, even more than Bruce. I don't necessarily see it as a matter of maturity though, I just feel like the Batman's identity should be maintained as much as possible simply out of practicality.

There are ways to get information out of even the most responsible and strong willed people like Barbs, so I don't see Bruce sharing his identity just cause of trust or maturity level (like even within the league I feel like only Superman and Wonder Woman should know). The same applies to most superheroes in general, with Batman in particular being especially cautious who he shares with since his identity is an actual necessity unlike other heroes with powers.

----------


## The tall man

> What does revealing Damian to not be Bruce's son accomplish? They somewhat attempted that with the Batman vs Deathstroke story line and thank god they didn't actually go trough with it. Damian not being Bruce's child would kill the character.


That's exactly the point, this father/son dynamic only benefits Damian not Bruce, he gets nothing out of the relationship. Bruce is made out to be the worst person, father, character in relation to Damian. Damian gets the perks of being the "son of Batman", he gets immediate unearned relevance and status by simply having the Wayne name. But at least you acknowledge that severing that familial bond would destroy Damian as a character. Many Damian fans act like Bruce doesn't matter, that Damian would be better off without him and they don't even want him showing up in Damian's solo. However they also don't want Damian removed from the bat mythos. They want all the recognition and relevance that comes with being closely tied to Batman's world but they don't want Batman himself. I guess subconsciously they know Damian would be destroyed without being Batman's son. It must suck loving a character but hating to acknowledge what makes him relevant.

----------


## Marik Swift

Damian is my favorite Robin, but I agree Damian's existence severely undermined the other Robins (especially Tim). I feel the same way about Jon Kent.

The concept of the Robins was that Bruce was showing that "blood does not define family".

----------


## Light of Justice

> Damian is my favorite Robin, but I agree Damian's existence severely undermined the other Robins (especially Tim). I feel the same way about Jon Kent.
> 
> The concept of the Robins was that Bruce was showing that "blood does not define family".


The problem is, most fans forget that Damian didn't get Robin title from Bruce. Batman actually rejected him. Only after Batman (temporary) death and Damian was roaming wildly on Gotham tried to prove himself, Dick took him and made Robin title function as it should, a way for lost children to be guided under Batman. 
But I can't blame fans for forgeting that, since even on Damian's own title Dick's role to give Damian Robin was replaced by Bruce. Animation adaptations also partly responsible for that misconception.

----------


## adrikito

> Damian is my favorite Robin, but I agree Damian's existence severely undermined the other Robins (especially Tim). I feel the same way about Jon Kent.
> 
> The concept of the Robins was that Bruce was showing that "blood does not define family".


I love Lois but... I think that the Superman/Lex "son" thing with KON worked better..

Lois could have had a DAUGHTER making her a Supergirl and with that... Kara could finally become in one Superwoman. and Stop looking as one Super Rookie after all these decades.  :Frown:

----------


## marhawkman

> The idea that Barbara wasn't mature enough at the start is just a flat-out insult to Barbara to me, and completely unacceptable.  Then again, I like her debuting as an adult, as she originally did.
> 
> I also don't see as more mature to choose not to know, either. It's a choice - knowing and not knowing both have advantages and risks to all of them.


Like if someone telepathically interrogates you.  :Stick Out Tongue:   Which has happened in DC comics more than once.  I mean it happens more often in Marvel, since powerful telepaths have been in seemingly EVERY incarnation of the Xmen, and even Xavier is like "I don't enjoy reading your mind like an open book, but..... lesser of two evils"  Then he makes a copy of your entire life history just in case he missed something important.  Xavier's idea of being nice about it is to NOT erase your memory in the process.

DC has a variety of telepaths too.  White Martians for example.....  Hmm don't some versions of Starro read your mind while you're possessed? So the big starfish knows your past?  Oh and Maxwell Lord.  Yeah... that guy.  (among others)


> I love Lois but... I think that the Superman/Lex "son" thing with KON worked better..
> 
> Lois could have had a DAUGHTER making her a Supergirl and with that... Kara could finally become in one Superwoman. and Stop looking as one Super Rookie after all these decades.


In some versions Lois does.  There was one set like 20 years after the main books where Lois and Clark had two children one of which was Supergirl... and the other acted like Lex Luthor for... reasons... that are complicated... and involve Gold Kryptonite.

----------


## Micael

> That and it would have made Talia being retconned into a rapist even more stupid than it already was.


That wasn't a retcon as the story where Morrison took the idea from wasn't canon.

----------


## Aahz

> Looking at the announced "Robin and Batman" series, I really think they should do something like this with Jason Todd.
> 
> He is out of the Robins the only one that never got at least a Robin Mini series, or back up stories series, and even in the pages of the main Batman comic he didn't got post crisis much focus outside of his origin story and Death in the Family. (The pre crisis version got imo more focus).


While I'm add it, I think the Jasons Origin Story, Death in the Family and Tim's Origin story, should also redone at some point as mini or OGN by some top level creative teams.

The original versions are all kind of meh.

----------


## adrikito

> DC has a variety of telepaths too.  White Martians for example.....  Hmm don't some versions of Starro read your mind while you're possessed? So the big starfish knows your past?  Oh and Maxwell Lord.  Yeah... that guy.  (among others)In some versions Lois does.  There was one set like 20 years after the main books where Lois and Clark had two children one of which was Supergirl... and the other acted like Lex Luthor for... reasons... that are complicated... and involve Gold Kryptonite.


WOW. Sounds interesting.

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> That wasn't a retcon as the story where Morrison took the idea from wasn't canon.


No, it was a retcon as the orginal Hush story has a Talia mentioning that Selina obviously hasn't slept with Bruce, and Bruce's inner monologue in a different issue contemplating that they are "complicated" and heavily implying that yes, they had had sex on more than one occasion including issue 0 of "No Man's Land" which had a classic fade to black scene of them making out in bed followed by Bruce's calling Lucius to say a girl got his groove back on.

Those are just the two most blatant examples from the 90s and 00s, there were more, including several from the 80s where the blowjob euphemisms abound between the two of them. 

Plastic Man of May 2007 even had Superman calling Talia Bruce's baby mama, Damian appears in September of the same year.

----------


## marhawkman

> No, it was a retcon as the orginal Hush story has a Talia mentioning that Selina obviously hasn't slept with Bruce, and Bruce's inner monologue in a different issue contemplating that they are "complicated" and heavily implying that yes, they had had sex on more than one occasion including issue 0 of "No Man's Land" which had a classic fade to black scene of them making out in bed followed by Bruce's calling Lucius to say a girl got his groove back on.
> 
> Those are just the two most blatant examples from the 90s and 00s, there were more, including several from the 80s where the blowjob euphemisms abound between the two of them. 
> 
> Plastic Man of May 2007 even had Superman calling Talia Bruce's baby mama, Damian appears in September of the same year.


Heh, and Batman: TAS, where Ra's introduces Talia to Bruce... because Ra'is wants an heir.  I mean.... It's as non-subtle as you can be without Talia removing her clothes.

----------


## dietrich

> Damian is my favorite Robin, but I agree Damian's existence severely undermined the other Robins (especially Tim). I feel the same way about Jon Kent.
> 
> The concept of the Robins was that Bruce was showing that "blood does not define family".


You mean you disagree.

Tallman's comment said that Damian is used to make bruce a bad person/father cos he's written as an uncaring/bad father to Damian his blood son unlike with his adopted kids whose stories don't make bruce look bad.

----------


## Alpha

> Tallman's comment said that Damian is used to make bruce a bad person/father cos he's written as an uncaring/bad father to Damian his blood son unlike with his adopted kids whose stories don't make Bruce look bad.


Lol what? 

IMG_20210815_072845.jpg

Bruce adopted them so he's responsible for them. And quite a hypocrite

----------


## Coal Tiger

Hush would have been a better story if it was Jason all along.

----------


## phonogram12

Margot Robbie's look in the first Suicide Squad movie was awful. Aesthetically speaking, she looked much better in both Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad.

----------


## Marik Swift

> Margot Robbie's look in the first Suicide Squad movie was awful. Aesthetically speaking, she looked much better in both Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad.


I didn't mind the sexualized outfit, I just wished it wasn't so on the nose.

Like Lynda Carter Wonder Woman was skimpy, but the directors wasn't rubbing that in your face every second and making her useless.

----------


## phonogram12

> I didn't mind the sexualized outfit, I just wished it wasn't so on the nose.


For me I think it was just the hair and the shoes. Super ladies in heels are bad enough, but butt ugly sneaker/heel combos? Ugh. That combined with the hair just made her look a little too truck stop meth head to me.




> Like Lynda Carter Wonder Woman was skimpy, but the directors wasn't rubbing that in your face every second and making her useless.


100% accurate.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Hush would have been a better story if it was Jason all along.


If they do another Hush adaptation, they should use that angle.

----------


## Micael

The popular perception is that Batman is a better character for having the batfamily around him and that they make him a better man. While I don't totally disagree I also can't disregard the fact that Bruce gets into is asshole, paranoid mode when dealing with other heroes specifically the batfamily. There are stories where I think he's purposefully written that way just to make the rest of the family have a reason to challenge him and prove him wrong. In this context I also include Alfred who's constantly written to be the one to check Bruce's stubborn behavior, the more fatherly he becomes the more childish Bruce acts. I'm not against Alfred serving that role from time to time but sometime they go overboard with it. The batfamily is a great concept, I just wish they didn't stifle Bruce's character complexity just to make him into "stoic dad who can't enjoy life".

----------


## The tall man

> The popular perception is that Batman is a better character for having the batfamily around him and that they make him a better man. While I don't totally disagree I also can't disregard the fact that Bruce gets into is asshole, paranoid mode when dealing with other heroes specifically the batfamily. There are stories where I think he's purposefully written that way just to make the rest of the family have a reason to challenge him and prove him wrong. In this context I also include Alfred who's constantly written to be the one to check Bruce's stubborn behavior, the more fatherly he becomes the more childish Bruce acts. I'm not against Alfred serving that role from time to time but sometime they go overboard with it. The batfamily is a great concept, I just wish they didn't stifle Bruce's character complexity just to make him into "stoic dad who can't enjoy life".


I mostly agree with this take but stop short of believing that the family makes Batman a better character or a better man. I can take the family in small doses but it seems the only purpose they serve in Batman's books is to call out perceived grievances, whine and challenge him. All they do is tell him he's wrong about any and everything and he just takes it, he never defends himself against their verbal attacks, he is always made to be the one who's in the wrong, he's the jerk, the a-hole, the bastard who's responsible for everything bad. Heck, look at the Titans show and how he is portrayed in that series, that's the default setting when dealing with Batman and the family; he is thrown under the bus for their benefit. I have always been in favor of separating Batman from the family. let them have their own stories and do their own thing independent of each other. When writers shoehorn the family into Batman's stories it isn't for his benefit, it's for theirs. He doesn't need them, he's not DC'S number character and biggest seller because of them, he will be fine all on his own. It's the family that benefits from being in Batman's stories, they get exposure and relevance from appearing in his books. But this constant need writers and family fans have to character assassinate Bruce at every turn is maddening. Let the family go do their own thing, if there is a market for batfamily books then DC needs to put those out and let family  fans determine if they sink or swim. But most importantly DC needs to stop letting Batman be the whipping boy for the family to show how cool and badass they think they are.

----------


## TheRay

What if Dick Grayson had a boyfriend too

----------


## witchboy

> What if Dick Grayson had a boyfriend too


I'd certainly accept it, but as a big supporter of Tim coming out, and a gay fan, I don't expect or want everyone to be LGBT. Just a fair number. Tim has a love interest for now, but there's a good chance he might get another one - maybe even a high profile character like Conner. Having Dick have a boyfriend would be huge, and I'd secretly love it, but I don't see where it's the right direction for the franchise. Tim coming out now is enough for the Batfam.

----------


## TheRay

lol if we're being honest none of the relationship garbage that we get through the Batman medium has anything to do with the direction of the franchise, but if we're going to go back to that well again and again, then we might as well explore our options.

----------


## dietrich

> What if Dick Grayson had a boyfriend too


Folks at my work said/seem to believe he's getting one or he already does

The headlines just say stuff like 'Robin is Gay' or 'Batman's sidekick comes out as LGBTq after 80 years'.

Super vague.

[Some even had the wrong Robin alongside the head/lines. Lol ]

Dick is by far the most well known Robin so as far as the non comics world is concerned. he does now have a boyfriend.

All the Robins are now gay because casuals don't know their individual names and will simply associate Robin and Gay.

A surprising amount think that there's just one or two at the most. The acrobat who was killed by Joker. The son who was killed by Joker.

A few complaints about how woke it was that after 80 years he's now decided he's gay. they legit thought that the guy who was now LGBTQ was the 80 yr old Golden age Robin!.

It was fun listening in while I had my lunch.

----------


## phonogram12

> What if Dick Grayson had a boyfriend too


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there rumors that they were going to make him bi at some point? Maybe during Devin Grayson's run? I could totally see it, tbh.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there rumors that they were going to make him bi at some point? Maybe during Devin Grayson's run? I could totally see it, tbh.


Tim-Tom's Grayson. It was when he fixed his suit and asked "am I straight" in a full page picture. Since that was right after Wonder Woman and Selina were confirmed bi and they're getting braver at showing Harley and Ivy in a relationship, people actually thought it's a hint for another reveal, and they had to clarify that it was just a pun.

I mean it's a bit much dedicating a full page picture just for a pun, but because it was so in your face that I didn't believe it. 

Tim's story is much more subtle, like they actually know what they're doing, unlike those two chuckleheads ^^

----------


## TheRay

> All the Robins are now gay because casuals don't know their individual names and will simply associate Robin and Gay.


I'm okay with this

----------


## Marik Swift

Selina should go back to being a prostitute.

- - - - -

I would like for at least one major comic book character to portray prostitution in a positive light. Show that it doesn't make someone lesser than, but is simply just a way of life. I definitely feel like it's in character for Selina to have that mentality to remain a prostitute so long as she has friends who still does it, cause she sticks by her people.

Would especially add a facet to her and Bruce's complicated relationship. I can see him being okay with it, but her unwillingness to quit can be another good reason for why the two can't make it work.

----------


## witchboy

> Selina should go back to being a prostitute.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> I would like for at least one major comic book character to portray prostitution in a positive light. Show that it doesn't make someone lesser than, but is simply just a way of life. I definitely feel like it's in character for Selina to have that mentality to remain a prostitute so long as she has friends who still does it, cause she sticks by her people.
> 
> Would especially add a facet to her and Bruce's complicated relationship. I can see him being okay with it, but her unwillingness to quit can be another good reason for why the two can't make it work.


Why would she do it though?
And if we have to have a prostitute character, why does it have to be a woman?
Why not have Jason or Dick prostituting?

----------


## RobinGA

I am rather appalled about where we are with women characters with DC Comics.  
Many of these threads around here are about which women should be sleeping with 
which other character.  We do this with the male characters, but not as much.  
Now we have a prostitution thread.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . All the Robins are now gay because casuals don't know their individual names and will simply associate Robin and Gay. . .


* = Gasp! =* 

So, Dr. Fredric Wertham was right all along??   :EEK!:

----------


## John Venus

> I am rather appalled about where we are with women characters with DC Comics.  
> Many of these threads around here are about which women should be sleeping with 
> which other character.  We do this with the male characters, but not as much.  
> Now we have a prostitution thread.


I mean, this is the 'Controversial Opinions' thread. Of course a topic like this is bound to come up.

----------


## John Venus

> Why would she do it though?
> And if we have to have a prostitute character, why does it have to be a woman?
> Why not have Jason or Dick prostituting?


Selina being a prostitute has been a long standing part of the character ever since Miller introduced it in Year One and it's kind of stuck ever since.  

Catwoman is a morally grey character. She steals but mostly from rich patrons. She grew up poor and stole to survive.  She is the perfect foil for Bruce Wayne's privileged upbringing and challenges his black and white view of morality.  Selina being a prostitute is just one of the ways those themes can be expressed. Especially since it's a controversial topic and you're going to find people arguing for and against this.

----------


## Robanker

> Selina being a prostitute has been a long standing part of the character ever since Miller introduced it in Year One and it's kind of stuck ever since.  
> 
> Catwoman is a morally grey character. She steals but mostly from rich patrons. She grew up poor and stole to survive.  She is the perfect foil for Bruce Wayne's privileged upbringing and challenges his black and white view of morality.  Selina being a prostitute is just one of the ways those themes can be expressed. Especially since it's a controversial topic and you're going to find people arguing for and against this.


She's also morphed into a protagonist and I don't know that DC wants to sell her as a former prostitute when they won't even allow Bruce to be a giving lover. lol

More importantly, back when she expressly was a dominatrix, they did everything they could to imply she didn't actually engage in any intercourse. I don't think they ever committed to her being a prostitute full-stop, and frankly I don't care for that origin-- especially knowing what Frank Miller seems to think about women and how to make them strong.

----------


## Vakanai

I don't like Dick Grayson. I'm just indifferent to him.

----------


## Godlike13

Well if you dont like him then your not really indifferent to him, just saying.

----------


## Marik Swift

> Why would she do it though?
> And if we have to have a prostitute character, why does it have to be a woman?
> Why not have Jason or Dick prostituting?


Who said it has to be a woman?

Selina was suggested because it's already an established part of her history.

----------


## Zaresh

> Well if you don’t like him then your not really indifferent to him, just saying.


Not them, but I feel indifferent about a lot of foods, for example. But that doesn't mean I dislike them. I just eat them, don't give me any emotional input. And then there's food I actually dislike, and food I detest. And food I love with passion.

I feel indifferent about Helena, for example. That doesn't mean I dislike her.

----------


## dietrich

> Why would she do it though?
> And if we have to have a prostitute character, why does it have to be a woman?
> Why not have Jason or Dick prostituting?


Those are bad examples to pick.

Dick has worked as a stripper. Not sure if he offered extra's and lets not forget that in the Gotham there's an Adult shop where you can buy Nightwing themed merch and stuff.

However Jason already have an allowance provided by Bruce and Dick currently is a Billionaire.

Selina is a Working Girl not a trust fund kid like the two Wayne boys you mentioned.

----------


## dietrich

> * = Gasp! =* 
> 
> So, Dr. Fredric Wertham was right all along??


Yep.  :Cool:

----------


## witchboy

> Those are bad examples to pick.
> 
> Dick has worked as a stripper. Not sure if he offered extra's and lets not forget that in the Gotham there's an Adult shop where you can buy Nightwing themed merch and stuff.
> 
> However Jason already have an allowance provided by Bruce and Dick currently is a Billionaire.
> 
> Selina is a Working Girl not a trust fund kid like the two Wayne boys you mentioned.


And Selina could make more in a night heisting jewels than a year of sex work. 
I just grabbed Jason and Dick for that comparison as they are two characters of equal prominence to Selina. 
It doesn't matter who the men are, the point is that people who suggest Selina do sex work aren't also suggesting that the male characters do it too.

----------


## Agent Z

> Those are bad examples to pick.
> 
> Dick has worked as a stripper. Not sure if he offered extra's and lets not forget that in the Gotham there's an Adult shop where you can buy Nightwing themed merch and stuff.
> 
> However Jason already have an allowance provided by Bruce and Dick currently is a Billionaire.
> 
> Selina is a Working Girl not a trust fund kid like the two Wayne boys you mentioned.


When was Dick a stripper?

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> When was Dick a stripper?


Nightwing #38

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

He sneaks into a building by posing as a stripper.

----------


## John Venus

> She's also morphed into a protagonist and I don't know that DC wants to sell her as a former prostitute when they won't even allow Bruce to be a giving lover. lol
> 
> More importantly, back when she expressly was a dominatrix, they did everything they could to imply she didn't actually engage in any intercourse. I don't think they ever committed to her being a prostitute full-stop, and frankly I don't care for that origin-- especially knowing what Frank Miller seems to think about women and how to make them strong.


I can't recall anything I read where they didn't say she was a prostitute.  

I know some fans who prefer her Pre Crisis origin but no writer has ever tried to remove her Post Crisis origin. They've only worked around it or added to it by revealing that  she was also a thief who was also forced into prostitution.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I can't see Selena returning to prostitution herself but she could always become a protector of prostitutes. She helps them have a safer business or find a new life etc. Her book could even deal with issues surrounding legalizing prostitution.

----------


## bretmaverick2

As a side note, most males / females involved in prostitution are FORCED into that as slaves.  Again, I said the majority.  It should never be glorified.

----------


## Micael

> As a side note, most males / females involved in prostitution are FORCED into that as slaves.  Again, I said the majority.  It should never be glorified.


I don't think this is true. Feel free to provide reliable sources that can prove me wrong though.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't think this is true. Feel free to provide reliable sources that can prove me wrong though.


I don't where the notion that most prostitutes are forced into it comes from. That is a generalization and a stereotype that overlooks the many escorts and working girls who do it by choice because it's tax free.

I sincerely hope that a decent number so it of their own free will

----------


## dietrich

> And Selina could make more in a night heisting jewels than a year of sex work. 
> I just grabbed Jason and Dick for that comparison as they are two characters of equal prominence to Selina. 
> It doesn't matter who the men are, the point is that people who suggest Selina do sex work aren't also suggesting that the male characters do it too.


I guess steal from others lines up with Selina's selfish nature.
Prostitution is mutually beneficial and like you said selina can make a lot more stealing

----------


## Godlike13

Um, sex trafficking is a real thing. Argue the merits of prostitution all you want but let’s not pretend its not a thing.

Generally though DC wants to be able to market Catwoman to children and be generally accessible.

----------


## batnbreakfast

After retiring Joker for a while, one of the biggest cash cows but also many fans are tired of him, DC should make Harley the Clown Princess of Crime. She would become a much bigger threat and more frightening but never rise to the levels of Batgod/Jokergod. Attach Ivy to her or don't just use her in a different role for some time.

----------


## Marik Swift

> As a side note, most males / females involved in prostitution are FORCED into that as slaves.  Again, I said the majority.  It should never be glorified.


I really don't see how this is relevant?

If I was to say I think prisoners who were unjustly imprisoned should be released, would you reply "well, most males/females in prison deserve to be there".

Nobody said anything about glorification. Or is DC/Marvel now glorifying criminal activity by having super villains?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> After retiring Joker for a while, one of the biggest cash cows but also many fans are tired of him, DC should make Harley the Clown Princess of Crime. She would become a much bigger threat and more frightening but never rise to the levels of Batgod/Jokergod. Attach Ivy to her or don't just use her in a different role for some time.


I've read arguments for killing him off and splitting his archetypal role between Harley and Punchline.

----------


## Alpha

> Nobody said anything about glorification. Are is DC/Marvel now glorifying criminal activity by having super villains?


Yes actually, but it doesn't really matter for this discussion.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> As a side note, most males / females involved in prostitution are FORCED into that as slaves.  Again, I said the majority.  It should never be glorified.





> Um, sex trafficking is a real thing. Argue the merits of prostitution all you want but let’s not pretend its not a thing.
> 
> Generally though DC wants to be able to market Catwoman to children and be generally accessible.


I'm for her becoming a protector of prostitutes. So her freeing victims of trafficking and using her criminal connections is a better way to pitch a solo book.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

Bruce's entire history as Batman should be re-written.

A major issue in current continuity is the Robins, something needs to be done to condense their time.

Have Dick join a year or two in, he and Bruce should be over a decade apart in age, ideally 14-16 years. Bruce is still young, Dick is his friend and companion, one of the few he trusts. Have Dick grow up, and move out when Bruce is in his early to mid thirties. Jason joins Bruce to fill that void. Emphasize that Jason is a fantastic Robin, brilliant. But he still dies, and this destroys Bruce.

After Jason's death, have Tim take up another name when he debuts. Him being Robin doesn't make sense while Jason is freshly dead, and with Tim not being Robin you can introduce Damian when Tim's 15/16 and not have Tim's Robin time be cut short. Let Tim branch out, with young Justice, with Steph, with his father. Have him be what he once was, a relatable boy that lived an ordinary life alongside being a hero. Then you can have Damian as the first Robin in years, given to him by Dick when Bruce is MIA.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Have Dick join a year or two in, he and Bruce should be over a decade apart in age, ideally 14-16 years. Bruce is still young, Dick is his friend and companion, one of the few he trusts.


This is the New 52 version




> Have Dick grow up, and move out when Bruce is in his early to mid thirties. Jason joins Bruce to fill that void. Emphasize that Jason is a fantastic Robin, brilliant. But he still dies, and this destroys Bruce.


This is the 1988-89 version




> After Jason's death, have Tim take up another name when he debuts. Him being Robin doesn't make sense while Jason is freshly dead, and with Tim not being Robin you can introduce Damian when Tim's 15/16 and not have Tim's Robin time be cut short.


This is the New 52 version again, and this is the controversial part, basically one of the reason New 52 Tim is hated.

----------


## Kid Devil

Heres some of mine...

1.Dick does not make the best replacement for Batman.
2.Jason should have stayed dead.
3.Damian should have never been born.
4.How is Barbara Gordon Batgirl a feminist icon if she basically didn't do anything except rip off Batman's fashion sense until she became Oracle?
5.Azrael was really interesting even though he gets a lot of hate for Knightquest and I wish to see more of him.
6.(might not be unpopular) Tim Drake is straight and should be with Spoiler this instant. They are my favorite DC couple.

----------


## witchboy

> This is the New 52 version
> 
> 
> 
> This is the 1988-89 version
> 
> 
> 
> This is the New 52 version again, and this is the controversial part, basically one of the reason New 52 Tim is hated.


I don't recall there being any fan backlash at the time when Tim took on the Robin mantle. It worked then and I don't see any reason to complicate and compromise Tim's history for this imo nonexistent controversy.

----------


## Light of Justice

> I don't recall there being any fan backlash at the time when Tim took on the Robin mantle. It worked then and I don't see any reason to complicate and compromise Tim's history for this imo nonexistent controversy.


They meant New52 Tim, you know the one that became Red Robin from the start and the founder of Teen Titans?

----------


## The World

The idea that despite all of the indecent crap that modern Superheroes do it's prostitution that's considered beyond the pale is absolutely hilarious.

----------


## Restingvoice

The Bat fam seems pretty chill that Joker and Punchline knowing their identity. Do they rely on Punchline following Joker's game of not telling and just play at the right time?

----------


## The Cheat

> The Bat fam seems pretty chill that Joker and Punchline knowing their identity. Do they rely on Punchline following Joker's game of not telling and just play at the right time?


It's not like they can do anything about it. We know how Bruce feels about mindwipes...

----------


## BoosterGold

Tim should have returned to the Pre-Flashpoint version of Red Robin once Rebirth happened.  And his time as Drake in Young Justice was the most pointless identity change I have ever heard of in comics.

----------


## ermac

Bruce should retire.

Nightwing should be in the Justice League.

Robin (Tim) and Batgirl (Cassandra) should take over the operation in Gotham.

That would be my status quo.

----------


## Agent Z

> It's not like they can do anything about it. We know how Bruce feels about mindwipes...


Unless it's done to Prometheus or White Martians.

----------


## Westbats

> The Bat fam seems pretty chill that Joker and Punchline knowing their identity. Do they rely on Punchline following Joker's game of not telling and just play at the right time?


I thought that Joker never shared that knowledge with Punchline? The only identity that she knows at the moment, to my knowledge, is Bluebirds.

----------


## marhawkman

> Bruce should retire.
> 
> Nightwing should be in the Justice League.
> 
> Robin (Tim) and Batgirl (Cassandra) should take over the operation in Gotham.
> 
> That would be my status quo.


Also Bruce should be kept as far away from crimefighting and plot to destroy the Justice League as possible.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Also Bruce should be kept as far away from crimefighting and plot to destroy the Justice League as possible.


Fund and cover for the League, yes. Offer advise when asked, yes. Make plans to "counter" his more powerful friends? Yeah, no. Leave Gotham to the family.

----------


## dietrich

> Bruce should retire.
> 
> Nightwing should be in the Justice League.
> 
> Robin (Tim) and Batgirl (Cassandra) should take over the operation in Gotham.
> 
> That would be my status quo.


Your status quo would spell the end for DC comics but this is the controversial opinions thread

----------


## dietrich

The thing holding Tim drake back is his fans

----------


## Micael

> Bruce should retire.
> 
> Nightwing should be in the Justice League.
> 
> Robin (Tim) and Batgirl (Cassandra) should take over the operation in Gotham.
> 
> That would be my status quo.


If there's an active Batman even if it's not Bruce he will be the one joining the JL meaning Nightwing has 0 chances of being part of the team if he's not Batman when there's someone else around using the costume and the name.

----------


## Will Evans

Babs Gordon’s best love interest was Luke Fox.

Harper Row should be more involved with the “family.”

Aside from maybe Superman/Batman, Gotham Girl shouldn’t appear in any Bat books again.

----------


## Aahz

Probaly not that controversial, but I don't like the return of the classic Robin costume in Flashbacks.

----------


## TheRay

I feel like we have enough content to support Kid FlashxNightwing

----------


## Restingvoice

> I feel like we have enough content to support Kid FlashxNightwing


Say Wally next time. I have to think for a second why are you shipping him with a 12 year old.

----------


## John Venus

-Dick and Babs should be platonic friendship.  

-Dick and Babs are bi. 

-Cass should be the main Batgirl. Steph should remain as the Spoiler.  Babs should be Oracle full time and mentoring Cass and Steph.   

-Damain should be wiped from existence.  

-Talia should be a morally grey character. She agrees with her fathers dream but not his means and she sees Bruce as a way out of the life of the LoA.  

-Bette Kane should be reinvented as trans which will raise trans representation in the Bat Fam.

----------


## Pohzee

> I feel like we have enough content to support Kid FlashxNightwing


I've seen this sentiment a couple times in the past few months but had never really heard it before then (though I'm sure there was definitely support for it out there.) I really don't mean to be _that guy_ because different interpretations of characters are valid and whatnot, but I'm curious as to which interactions you have read between Nightwing and Flash that you felt had hints of romantic attraction? I've not read all of their teamups to be fair

----------


## Will Evans

> -Dick and Babs should be platonic friendship.  
> 
> -Dick and Babs are bi. 
> 
> -Cass should be the main Batgirl. Steph should remain as the Spoiler.  Babs should be Oracle full time and mentoring Cass and Steph.   
> 
> -Damain should be wiped from existence.  
> 
> -Talia should be a morally grey character. She agrees with her fathers dream but not his means and she sees Bruce as a way out of the life of the LoA.  
> ...


Not sure if choosing the one Bat-family member who was a professional athlete (tennis) as trans rep, would be a good idea.

----------


## TheRay

> Say Wally next time. I have to think for a second why are you shipping him with a 12 year old.


Doesn’t really matter since you still knew who it was about.

----------


## lemonpeace

if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is aggressively mismanaging the character.

----------


## MajorHoy

> if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is aggressively mismanaging the character.


May I suggest a slight revision to what you said?


> if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is *STILL* aggressively mismanaging the character.

----------


## lemonpeace

> May I suggest a slight revision to what you said?


hmmmm....revision approved.

----------


## marhawkman

> if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is aggressively mismanaging the character.


Hmmm I feel that this statement needs to be phrased in essay form,  with a list of Bat-combatants and the reasons for why Duke may or may not be better than they are.... especially if Richard Dragon, David Cain, and Sandra Wu-San are on the list....

----------


## MajorHoy

> Hmmm I feel that this statement needs to be phrased in essay form,  with a list of Bat-combatants and the reasons for why Duke may or may not be better than they are.... *especially if Richard Dragon, David Cain, and Sandra Wu-San are on the list....*


Huh?

How exactly are you defining "the Batfamily"?!?    :Confused:  


> if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is aggressively mismanaging the character.

----------


## marhawkman

> Huh?
> 
> How exactly are you defining "the Batfamily"?!?


Well that's part of the question I was asking... how large is "Bat-family"(as defined by Lemonpeace)?  There's a VERY specific Bat-reason to mention David Cain and Sandra Wu-San though.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## John Venus

> Not sure if choosing the one Bat-family member who was a professional athlete (tennis) as trans rep, would be a good idea.


There would be backlash regardless.  Not sure what you mean about the tennis things. Is it about the discourse around whether trans athlete should be able to compete in the Olympic or not?

----------


## MajorHoy

> There would be backlash regardless.  Not sure what you mean about the tennis things. Is it about the discourse around whether trans athlete should be able to compete in the Olympic or not?


I was thinking Will Evans might be referring to things like Renée Richards (anybody else remember her?) and famous lesbian tennis players like Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova, but I don't know for sure.

----------


## Will Evans

> I was thinking Will Evans might be referring to things like Renée Richards (anybody else remember her?) and famous lesbian tennis players like Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova, but I don't know for sure.


Yeah, Renee Richards was who I was thinking of.

----------


## TheRay

Batman is always portrayed as such a loner, but he has way more sidekicks and groups than almost anybody else.
What makes him a "loner" again?

----------


## RobinGA

He's really not a loner.  
But that is part of his rep, his mythology.  
People have at various times built him up as the brooding 
Dark Knight.  
Bruce really does like having people around him.  
That is my take at least.

----------


## TheRay

He pushes people away, sure, but that doesn't last very long.

----------


## Aahz

> if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is aggressively mismanaging the character.


The way they handle him now I'm kind of skeptical if he is even around much 5 years from now.

To me the only two Batfamily characters where they should really for "top combatant" as primary "qualification" are Cass and Jason.

With Cass it is anywhere her thing.

And with Jason he had all that crazy training when became Red Hood (including the All Caste), was (apart from maybe Damian) the most aggressive Robin and the one who enjoyed fighting the most and is just simply physically the biggest of the Robins.

----------


## MajorHoy

> The way they handle him now I'm kind of skeptical if he is even around much 5 years from now.
> 
> To me the only two Batfamily characters where they should really for "top combatant" as primary "qualification" are Cass and Jason.
> 
> With Cass it is anywhere her thing.
> 
> And with Jason he had all that crazy training when became Red Hood (including the All Caste), was (apart from maybe Damian) the most aggressive Robin and the one who enjoyed fighting the most and is just simply physically the biggest of the Robins.


Jason may be aggressive, but how is he on the defensive end?  How good is he at finding a way to win without inflicting harm?

----------


## godisawesome

> Jason may be aggressive, but how is he on the defensive end?  How good is he at finding a way to win without inflicting harm?


I know Pre-New 52, the handful of times that different creators put him up against other Batfamily members, he was shown as being an offensive powerhouse… but very susceptible to counterattacks. I don’t think it was a coordinated effort at all, and it definitely played into the character favoritism of the stories he was in; Fabian Nicieza, for instance, had Tim get some vengeance for his earlier one-sided beat down in Teen Titans with a more strategic attack that Jason had to spray bullets randomly to defeat, while Tony Daniel had Tim manage a brief offensive flurry with a crowbar that genuinely battered Jason, before having Nightwing time a kick to take him down.

But I’ pd argue that the actual argument should not be “how good of a fighter are they?” For the family, but more “_What’s_ their combat strategy?”, with an implication that *all* members have the capacity to be more dangerous than the others in their preferred manner of attack. Really, only Cassandra should be the straight up martial artist that attracts Shiva’s attention as a “challenge”, with the implication being the others are more well-rounded but less esoterically focused.

I mean, while I don't like Lobdell’s storytelling and think his series are ultimately more of a hindrance to the character, I kind of like the idea of Jason have a more eclectic and weird, high-offense combat strategy that utilizes weapons both mundane and magical, as Lobdell portrayed him. Dick feels like he should be the master of maneuver and getting the quickest read on his opponents, letting his opponents beat themselves if he can. Tim is the “ace in the hole” planner, capable of highly effective game plans that *can* win a fight before it begins, but doesn’t react well to (rare) unexpected variables. Steph should be an ambush fighter using confusing gadgets, as should Damian, with the difference being that she falls back if caught while he dives forward.

Etc.

Really, I feel that most of the family shouldn’t be in the “best martial artists” debate, not because they might not have the skills for it or anything, but more because Bruce doesn’t give a damn about it, and those who are in that competition know the Bats. Always. Cheat. Even Cass, just not as much.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean, while I don't like Lobdell’s storytelling and think his series are ultimately more of a hindrance to the character, I kind of like the idea of Jason have a more eclectic and weird, high-offense combat strategy that utilizes weapons both mundane and magical, as Lobdell portrayed him. 
> 
> Dick feels like he should be the master of maneuver and getting the quickest read on his opponents, letting his opponents beat themselves if he can. 
> 
> Tim is the “ace in the hole” planner, capable of highly effective game plans that *can* win a fight before it begins, but doesn’t react well to (rare) unexpected variables. 
> 
> Steph should be an ambush fighter using confusing gadgets, as should Damian, with the difference being that she falls back if caught while he dives forward.
> 
> Etc.


I like to add that Dick, with some writers the past few years establishing him as a jump without a net kinda guy, has made him very adaptable and can change his fighting style depending on the enemy, use the environment, and if get mobbed, use the enemy's weapon against the other. That would go under the master of maneuver thing.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason may be aggressive, but how is he on the defensive end?  How good is he at finding a way to win without inflicting harm?


I don't think that he is worse than the rest of the Batfamily, but he usually just doesn't avoid inflicting harm. He got the same training from Bruce Dick and Tim got, and than on top all the training Talia organized for him and the All Caste Training (and I guess at least their training also included some less violent techniques). 

And if you go by pre Flash Point (= Winnik) he is also pretty good with prepping and strategy.


I also did really wanted to get into the discussion of who is how good at martial arts. Main point for me is that most Batfamily members have kind thing they excel at.

Dick is the leader/acrobat, Tim is the smart guy .... and Jason feels just like the most straight up fighter to me among the Robins (similar but not the same extreme degree as Cass among the Batgirls).

----------


## lemonpeace

> The way they handle him now I'm kind of skeptical if he is even around much 5 years from now.


I've been hearing this quite literally every year since I started reading Duke in 2015/2016ish. it's like when every year someone goes "DC's closing down forever this year",  as far as I'm concerned the claim is just weird wishful thinking. *shrugs* "iunno if [x thing] is gonna be here in [insert arbitrarily timeframe]" doomsaying is just so common on these kinda forums that i couldn't possibly care until it actually happens.

also, that's cool that you think Jason and Cass are the only top combatants candidates, but all experience being equal, Duke's skillset still takes their lunch money. other than the excuse of "oh he's inexperienced" there is no logical reason that the guy who's trained with 3 of the Batfams best fighters (Batman, Cassandra Cain, Red Hood, 4 if you wanna count Dick during We are Robin), was trained and mentored by Black Lightning, Lady Shiva (Shiva was more of a mentor), and Katana and has an assortment of superpowers, one of which being the ability to see (not predict) your next move and another being a healing factor. I said top 5 to be generous, he should be arguably top 2 or 3; rivaling or only second to characters like Clayface, Armored bats (like Azrael and Batwing), or highest tier fighters like Dick or Cassandra in terms of combat capability in the Batfamily.

----------


## Godlike13

> I've been hearing this quite literally every year since I started reading Duke in 2015/2016ish. it's like when every year someone goes "DC's closing down forever this year",  as far as I'm concerned the claim is just weird wishful thinking. *shrugs* "iunno if [x thing] is gonna be here in [insert arbitrarily timeframe]" doomsaying is just so common on these kinda forums that i couldn't possibly care until it actually happens.


And every year it becomes closer and closer to becoming true. Duke is barely around now as it is. That isn't a personal offense against Duke, its just a reasonable observation.

----------


## lemonpeace

> And every year it becomes closer and closer to becoming true. Duke is barely around now as it is. That isn't a personal offense against Duke, its just a reasonable observation.


first, let me get out the way that DC still could do better by Duke. having said that, dude started the year coming off a year+ of consistent page time in Outsiders then had appearances in Death Metal, Death Metal - Robin King, Future State, and a Tales from the Dark Multiverse story. then he had a one-shot, he's made his first out of comics cameo, and he's having a starring role in the Fear State: Outsiders story in Urban Legends where he's on the cover of the book. so it's weird to say he's "barely around" when not only has he been consistently around but he just came off of like 4 stories where he's the focal point within less than a year; his one-shot was literally last month. considering where he started, when people started saying this, compared to now, is it a really reasonable observation? no, it's weird defeatist wishful thinking that is common not just with Duke but most things that are new that have been introduced in the last decade or so. people can't even fathom the fact that we're still on the post-Flashpoint world lol like c'mon. y'all chattin. like I said, until it happens I couldn't possibly care.

----------


## Godlike13

Almost everybody had appearances in the big DC universe event that was Death Metal. Lead by his creator. His publication has taken a nose dive this year. Where before he was mini material, its now one shots and stories in anthology books. He’s now on pace for pockets of small stories or appearances every 6 months or so. This isn’t “weird defeatist wishful thinking” this is a time proven system with new characters. They push them early, then if they don’t see the results there comes a point where they taper off and move on. Which is very obviously happening with Duke. As we see his publication clearly lessening. Best hope for Duke is that other media picks him up, incentivizing them to cycle back. Because right now Duke seems like a character that can look forward to scraps or resident team appearances. A far cry from the next spin-off property they were hoping for. He’s not proving nay sayers wrong with what DC is doing with him.

----------


## Kid Devil

I don't think there needs to be more than 5-6 costumed members excluding Batman in the bat family at any given time.

----------


## Micael

Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson relationship should primarily function based on a sibling dynamic. The father/son vibe could still be there but is should be something that both characters don't really let on to the public and rarely address it as such. Dick and Bruce should be the younger and older brother that don't really admit they have a father/son connection.

----------


## Kid Devil

Like Obi Wan and Anakin?

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I've read arguments for killing him off and splitting his archetypal role between Harley and Punchline.


I know Harley but who is this other guy? Tynion gets just ignored like Tom king

----------


## Lal

> first, let me get out the way that DC still could do better by Duke. having said that, dude started the year coming off a year+ of consistent page time in Outsiders then had appearances in Death Metal, Death Metal - Robin King, Future State, and a Tales from the Dark Multiverse story. then he had a one-shot, he's made his first out of comics cameo, and he's having a starring role in the Fear State: Outsiders story in Urban Legends where he's on the cover of the book. so it's weird to say he's "barely around" when not only has he been consistently around but he just came off of like 4 stories where he's the focal point within less than a year; his one-shot was literally last month. considering where he started, when people started saying this, compared to now, is it a really reasonable observation? no, it's weird defeatist wishful thinking that is common not just with Duke but most things that are new that have been introduced in the last decade or so. people can't even fathom the fact that we're still on the post-Flashpoint world lol like c'mon. y'all chattin. like I said, until it happens I couldn't possibly care.


Duke received a crazy push this year by Snyder, both because he's Snyder's creation and all the metal/death metal books were lead by Snyder, and because of the BLM (Snyder said on interviews he plans to push towards more diversity).
But Snyder more or less left DC, for now, the outsiders couldn't hold an ongoing and are now relegated to Urban Legends, and Duke's one-shot wasn't well received.

He is planned to appear in Dark knights of steel this year, but other than that it doesn't look too optimistic. Or am I missing something?

----------


## marhawkman

> I don't think there needs to be more than 5-6 costumed members excluding Batman in the bat family at any given time.


Yeah and the limits of just how many there are get a bit blurry...  Damian counts, does his mom?  Barbara Gordon counts... do her Birds of Prey allies?  If NOT then there's at least one Batgirl(aka Misfit) who does NOT count as Bat-family?

----------


## Daedalus

> Like Obi Wan and Anakin?


Well, Anakin pretty explicitly sees their dynamic as father/son: 




> Obi-Wan:
> Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?
> 
> Anakin:
> Don't say that, master. You're the closest thing I have to a father.


Which is fair, considering Obi-Wan did raise him. Similarly to Bruce and Dick, now that you mention.

----------


## Daedalus

> I don't think there needs to be more than 5-6 costumed members excluding Batman in the bat family at any given time.


I agree with this. It's fine to have adjacent members (Huntress, for example, doesn't really count). But the _actual_ family needs be fairly limited, so as to be meaningful.

----------


## Restingvoice

So...
1. Dick
2. Babs
3. Tim
4. Cass
5. Steph
6. Damian

I'm discounting Jason since half the fandom don't mind him not part of the family, Selina's only close when they're dating, and Duke has his own family, team and HQ, same with Kate. I can exclude Steph since she's closer to Babs and Tim, but she's already a Robin and Batgirl so I think she can be part of the inner circle. Honestly I can exclude Babs too and keep it to people adopted by Bruce, but she's such an iconic member she has to be there. 

Also since Dick is in Bludhaven he can be excluded too, and you can include Duke or Helena

----------


## Marik Swift

> Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson relationship should primarily function based on a sibling dynamic. The father/son vibe could still be there but is should be something that both characters don't really let on to the public and rarely address it as such. Dick and Bruce should be the younger and older brother that don't really admit they have a father/son connection.


Agreed.

Bruce has enough other people to act as a father figure to.

----------


## Daedalus

> So...
> 1. Dick
> 2. Babs
> 3. Tim
> 4. Cass
> 5. Steph
> 6. Damian
> 
> I'm discounting Jason since half the fandom don't mind him not part of the family, Selina's only close when they're dating, and Duke has his own family, team and HQ, same with Kate. I can exclude Steph since she's closer to Babs and Tim, but she's already a Robin and Batgirl so I think she can be part of the inner circle. Honestly I can exclude Babs too and keep it to people adopted by Bruce, but she's such an iconic member she has to be there. 
> ...


Oh I'd certainly count Jason. 

Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim, and Damian are the ones I'd count as part of the close family, even when Jason is estranged. 

Kate, Duke, Helena, and the rest are fringe members. Cass and Steph are somewhere in the middle range.

Selina is not part of the Batfamily in my mind. Perhaps that's my controversial opinion.

----------


## Lal

> Oh I'd certainly count Jason. 
> 
> Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim, and Damian are the ones I'd count as part of the close family, even when Jason is estranged. 
> 
> Kate, Duke, Helena, and the rest are fringe members. Cass and Steph are somewhere in the middle range.
> 
> Selina is not part of the Batfamily in my mind. Perhaps that's my controversial opinion.


Yes, I agree with you.
There is the close family (sons + Babs), the free agents (Luke, Helena, Duke), and Cass and Steph, who seem to be getting a push towards the family, but are not exactly inner circle yet.

----------


## Aahz

> first, let me get out the way that DC still could do better by Duke. having said that, dude started the year coming off a year+ of consistent page time in Outsiders then had appearances in Death Metal, Death Metal - Robin King, Future State, and a Tales from the Dark Multiverse story. then he had a one-shot, he's made his first out of comics cameo, and he's having a starring role in the Fear State: Outsiders story in Urban Legends where he's on the cover of the book. so it's weird to say he's "barely around" when not only has he been consistently around but he just came off of like 4 stories where he's the focal point within less than a year; his one-shot was literally last month. considering where he started, when people started saying this, compared to now, is it a really reasonable observation? no, it's weird defeatist wishful thinking that is common not just with Duke but most things that are new that have been introduced in the last decade or so. people can't even fathom the fact that we're still on the post-Flashpoint world lol like c'mon. y'all chattin. like I said, until it happens I couldn't possibly care.


Metal was written by Snyder. Dukes creator who I think tried to push him a lot.
With Snyder (and his close co worker Tynion) now gone, I'm not sure if there is someone at DC who really  interesting in pushing Duke.

And I mean just look at Batwoman, they were really pushing her for quite some time, and now it is mostly background appearances and an anthology story every now and than.

I don't think Duke will completely vanish, but going forward he might end up being used as much as Batwoman and Batwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Oh I'd certainly count Jason. 
> 
> Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim, and Damian are the ones I'd count as part of the close family, even when Jason is estranged. 
> 
> Kate, Duke, Helena, and the rest are fringe members. Cass and Steph are somewhere in the middle range.
> 
> Selina is not part of the Batfamily in my mind. Perhaps that's my controversial opinion.


Well if that's the case I'm adding Cass to the sixth since she's supposed to be adopted before the Reboot happened.

Otherwise, it goes like this.

The Fox Fam
- Jace
- Luke
- Tiffany

The Babs Fam (The Birds)
- Babs
- Cass
- Steph
- Helena
- Harper

The Hood Fam
- Jason
- Scarlet
- Clownhunter

The Kane Fam
- Kate
- Bette

The Bat Fam
- Bruce
- Tim
- Damian
- Duke

The Wing Fam
- Nightwing
- Defacer
- The Run-Offs

The Sirens
- Harley
- Ivy
- Bella

The Cat Fam
- Selina
- Holly
- Kitrina

The Outsiders
- Black Lightning
- Katana
- Ghost-Maker
- Azrael

----------


## Lal

> Well if that's the case I'm adding Cass to the sixth since she's supposed to be adopted before the Reboot happened.
> 
> Otherwise, it goes like this.
> 
> The Fox Fam
> - Jace
> - Luke
> - Tiffany
> 
> ...


I'd argue that the Titans are more Nightwing's family than characters we stopped seeing at the middle/end of Seeley's run.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah but they have their own book

----------


## dietrich

> I don't think that he is worse than the rest of the Batfamily, but he usually just doesn't avoid inflicting harm. He got the same training from Bruce Dick and Tim got, and than on top all the training Talia organized for him and the All Caste Training (and I guess at least their training also included some less violent techniques). 
> 
> And if you go by pre Flash Point (= Winnik) he is also pretty good with prepping and strategy.
> 
> 
> I also did really wanted to get into the discussion of who is how good at martial arts. Main point for me is that most Batfamily members have kind thing they excel at.
> 
> Dick is the leader/acrobat, Tim is the smart guy .... and Jason feels just like the most straight up fighter to me among the Robins (similar but not the same extreme degree as Cass among the Batgirls).


I don't understand why some have to classify the Robins as one single ability or trait. 
It not only ignores a shit ton of other capabilities. It's not accurate.

Speciality?

Theres no Canon evidence showing that Tim is smarter than Dick.
There's nothing that shows that Jason is a better fighter than Dick or Damian.

Dick is more than Acrobat/leader.
Tim isn't as smart or tech savy as Damian.
Jason might be bigger and aggressive but he isn't as cunning as Tim or Damian so those two can take him regardless of how big he is.

Aggression doesn't give you an advantage in combat. It's actually a disadvantage.

Jason does have other training and skills aside from batman however how long were these training and how long was he alive and receiving bat training?

how long has he spent on the field and sparring?

These make a huge difference. All the Robins have been trained by Batman but Dick has been doing the Bat training and on field training since age 8. So while yeah they were all trained by Batman NONE of the others are anywhere near Dick because he's logged more hours. 

Tim's 3 years of Batman training would not result in the proficiency as Dick's 20+ years.

So there tiers of batman training.

Technically Dick and tim both have batman training only Tim's still in beginners tier while Dick is a Master.

If that makes sense. English isn't my 1st language.

Anyway my point is that using bat/LOA training as evidence  in 'best fighter' debates should factor in duration of said training.

Jason didn't get the same training as Dick and Tim. None of the robins got the the same batman training.

I'm not a fan of Robins having one skill they are best at. That's just lazy and often disproven  but Robin fans seem to enjoy 'Best at' debating

----------


## Lal

> I don't understand why some have to classify the Robins as one single ability or trait. 
> It not only ignores a shit ton of other capabilities. It's not accurate.
> 
> 
> Tim's 3 years of Batman training would not result in the proficiency as Dick's 20+ years.
> 
> So there tiers of batman training.
> 
> Technically Dick and tim both have batman training only Tim's still in beginners tier while Dick is a Master.


Agreed. Dick has 20 years of crime-fighting experience, as well as teaming up with almost everyone and leading almost any DC team. He's by far the most experienced one.

BTW, Nightwing's sister could probably count now as part of the Wing family. It seems very likely we'll see more of her in Taylor's run.
I'm not a fan of the long-lost sister shtick, but at the same time halfway happy they are siblings if she indeed stays long-term. At least this way nobody will ship them.

----------


## Marik Swift

> I don't understand why some have to classify the Robins as one single ability or trait. 
> It not only ignores a shit ton of other capabilities. It's not accurate.
> 
> Speciality?
> 
> Theres no Canon evidence showing that Tim is smarter than Dick.
> There's nothing that shows that Jason is a better fighter than Dick or Damian.
> 
> Dick is more than Acrobat/leader.
> ...


That's not fan preference though, just a matter of reality 

People excel at different things.

----------


## Zaresh

> Well if that's the case I'm adding Cass to the sixth since she's supposed to be adopted before the Reboot happened.
> 
> Otherwise, it goes like this.
> 
> The Fox Fam
> - Jace
> - Luke
> - Tiffany
> 
> ...


Jason hasn't shared a scene with Scarlet since pre-FP. I doubt she's even canon now. Clownhunter hasn't shared more than two panels with Jason in hall his story. Heck, Duke has shared more time with Jason than him, and he's Bruce's fam.

Jason has a cast of characters, but those aren't his, that's for sure. The all caste, for example. Essence, too. Numbers, or the girl from the last two issues of RHATO that I can't remember her name, the kids from the XMen-like academy, the woman from that mercenary agency in RH/A, Tyler from Urban Legends, Willis Todd, Ma Gunn and her grandaughter Faye, Isabel... Lobdell gave him a ton of support cast, but not only him. Williamson and Rosenberg are probably going to give him a few in the end, too, like the Arkhan Knight.

And Tim too, has his large list of original support regulars. And Dick. And Kate has Rene and her actual family.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Dukes main problem is that he was added to the Bat family when it was already severely overcrowded with characters struggling for page space and redundancies among them. Now I that his creator is gone, his best hope may be Jean Paul status, brought out from time to time but otherwise treated as a footnote.

----------


## SpiderTBliss

Batman and Harley should get together.

----------


## Robanker

> Dukes main problem is that he was added to the Bat family when it was already severely overcrowded with characters struggling for page space and redundancies among them. Now I that his creator is gone, his best hope may be Jean Paul status, brought out from time to time but otherwise treated as a footnote.


The thing is, Azrael's got the flaming sword visual which keeps him alive. Both iterations of Azrael wisely kept that. I don't know that Duke even has that going for him.




> first, let me get out the way that DC still could do better by Duke. having said that, dude started the year coming off a year+ of consistent page time in Outsiders then had appearances in Death Metal, Death Metal - Robin King, Future State, and a Tales from the Dark Multiverse story. then he had a one-shot, he's made his first out of comics cameo, and he's having a starring role in the Fear State: Outsiders story in Urban Legends where he's on the cover of the book. so it's weird to say he's "barely around" when not only has he been consistently around but he just came off of like 4 stories where he's the focal point within less than a year; his one-shot was literally last month. considering where he started, when people started saying this, compared to now, is it a really reasonable observation? no, it's weird defeatist wishful thinking that is common not just with Duke but most things that are new that have been introduced in the last decade or so. people can't even fathom the fact that we're still on the post-Flashpoint world lol like c'mon. y'all chattin. like I said, until it happens I couldn't possibly care.


At least on my part, it's more a trend with new characters that I've noticed having been a reader of over two decades. Typically, a new supporting cast/love interest/new sidekick or hero is introduced and gets use, but once their creator leaves the book or relevance, the character shifts to the background, is killed or revealed to be evil. The best examples are Bruce Wayne's many, many love interests from 1970-2000s when Catwoman fully took the role as his primary love interest. 

Trish Q over in the Bendis Superman books has already vanished. Do you remember Misfit from Birds of Prey? What about Jarro from the Snyder JL run? Mia from the Smith GA run? Where are they lately?

Duke's hung on, but his creator was the architecht of the universe and after that it was his protoge, so most of us just see a machine that always runs on time starting to turn its gears and that's where it comes from. It's more cynicism than anything else, though his identity shift from We Are Robin to Lark to The Signal in rapid succession did come across a bit as "we don't know what to do with Duke," much like what has been going on with Tim Drake before DC pulled the trigger to make him their queer male in the Bat family.

What I'll say in Duke's defense (and some others like Emiko Queen) is that they've luckily found some writers who actually want to use them (Brandon Thomas in Duke's case) and that bodes well for sticking around. As long as he has a writer to champion him, he stands a better chance at sticking around long-term.

I don't personally care for Duke one way or another, I have no vested interest in seeing him gone nor succeed, but for what it's worth I think he's having a better time of sticking around once his creator+next team grace period vanishes. That's a good sign for his fans, if nothing else.




> Batman and Harley should get together.


Thank you for providing the perfect summation of what a wrong opinion looks like.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Restingvoice

> Jason hasn't shared a scene with Scarlet since pre-FP. I doubt she's even canon now. Clownhunter hasn't shared more than two panels with Jason in hall his story. Heck, Duke has shared more time with Jason than him, and he's Bruce's fam.
> 
> Jason has a cast of characters, but those aren't his, that's for sure. The all caste, for example. Essence, too. Numbers, or the girl from the last two issues of RHATO that I can't remember her name, the kids from the XMen-like academy, the woman from that mercenary agency in RH/A, Tyler from Urban Legends, Willis Todd, Ma Gunn and her grandaughter Faye, Isabel... Lobdell gave him a ton of support cast, but not only him. Williamson and Rosenberg are probably going to give him a few in the end, too, like the Arkhan Knight.
> 
> And Tim too, has his large list of original support regulars. And Dick. And Kate has Rene and her actual family.


No, she's probably not, but there's always a way to bring someone back if Lobdell can bring Isabel back. 

Yes, but I'm considering where his placement is in the future if he wants to survive the changing of authors. 

You know what, true, I'll add Essence, Duela, and the kids too. I'm imagining if each of the family head has a book. So Suzie, Faye, and Isabel are in as well, but this is a list of costumes. So I didn't include characters like Gordons and Pennyworths.

I'll add Robin fam while I'm at it
- Damian
- Maya
- Colin Wilkes

So that leaves Bat fam with
- Bruce
- Tim
- Duke

Pretty small now, that should satisfy people




> Thank you for providing the perfect summation of what a wrong opinion looks like.


Well he does need therapy

----------


## Frontier

> Duke's hung on, but his creator was the architecht of the universe and after that it was his protoge, so most of us just see a machine that always runs on time starting to turn its gears and that's where it comes from. It's more cynicism than anything else, though his identity shift from We Are Robin to Lark to The Signal in rapid succession did come across a bit as "we don't know what to do with Duke,"* much like what has been going on with Tim Drake before DC pulled the trigger to make him their queer male in the Bat family.*


Phrasing it like that is what makes it feel gimmicky to me.

----------


## marhawkman

> Well if that's the case I'm adding Cass to the sixth since she's supposed to be adopted before the Reboot happened.
> 
> Otherwise, it goes like this.
> 
> The Fox Fam
> - Jace
> - Luke
> - Tiffany
> 
> ...


You left Misfit out of the Birds.  :Stick Out Tongue:   (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)

----------


## Fire Angel

> You left Misfit out of the Birds.   (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)


She is a misfit so she does not fit in.

----------


## Robanker

> Phrasing it like that is what makes it feel gimmicky to me.


It's gimmicky, sure, but I also can see it with Tim whereas with others (Dick is one commonly brought up) I just don't.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The thing is, Azrael's got the flaming sword visual which keeps him alive. Both iterations of Azrael wisely kept that. I don't know that Duke even has that going for him.


There is that. Flaming swords are always a cool visual.

I guess Duke has a yellow costume in a season of blacks, reds and blues? IDK. 




> It's gimmicky, sure, but I also can see it with Tim whereas with others (Dick is one commonly brought up) I just don't.


In fairness, everything in superhero comics is a gimmick to one degree or another. 

I think the internet pretty much views all superheroes as at least bisexual. Considering all these ridiculously pretty people in skin tight costumes getting tied up together and having intense face to face encounters, I can somewhat see the logic :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Robanker

> There is that. Flaming swords are always a cool visual.
> 
> I guess Duke has a yellow costume in a season of blacks, reds and blues? IDK. 
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness, everything in superhero comics is a gimmick to one degree or another. 
> 
> I think the internet pretty much views all superheroes as at least bisexual. Considering all these ridiculously pretty people in skin tight costumes getting tied up together and having intense face to face encounters, I can somewhat see the logic


The internet views all characters as whatever best fits their ships of interest. It's never been exclusive to superheroes. Hell, the characters need not even interact half the time. lol

Every character is more or less coded for whatever you want them to be. The X-Men are the ur-example. They're coded for every marginalized group because they're a marginalized group and when you look at that from the perspective of a specific angle, it works. I had many friends tell me the X-Men are black, Jewish, gay, etc. It just comes down to "they're outsiders unjustly excluded because they're different" and this is the particular group I identify with most, so that's what I see.

Same with lots of the relationships that get interpreted as sexual or romantic (and I don't just mean queer ones). A good example is Jon and Kathy from the Rebirth run of Superman. By all accounts, they're pretty much just friends, but a lot of people read "childhood budding romance" because they wanted to see it there. Likewise, Clark and Bruce are practically brothers, but some read them as having repressed sexual feelings because there's a strong bond that holds them together. If you ask some people, they're just close friends. If you ask others, they're queer-coded. It's a matter or perspective, and the internet has long been a place where people feel emboldened to share their opinions on what they see.

With Clark and Bruce, however, there's always that exceptionally melodramatic page where Bruce tells Alfred to screen Clark's call and Clark tears up. I don't think you can read that one any differently than soap opera romance, but over their history I think it's pretty conclusively proven where their interests lie and it's not with each other. The internet does seem preoccupied more with sexual/romantic relationships than any other, so if you see anyone with a significant bond, someone ships them. My brief interactions with the Supernatural community tells me that being blood brothers isn't enough to deter that, so take that as you will.

My read on Tim wasn't queer, but his handling of Conner's death and the fallout afterward did feel like there was more there so I see it because of that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You left Misfit out of the Birds.   (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)


I wasn't sure if she's from the Bat franchise or others like Black Canary and Zinda

----------


## Frontier

> Same with lots of the relationships that get interpreted as sexual or romantic (and I don't just mean queer ones). A good example is Jon and Kathy from the Rebirth run of Superman. By all accounts, they're pretty much just friends, but a lot of people read "childhood budding romance" because they wanted to see it there. Likewise, Clark and Bruce are practically brothers, but some read them as having repressed sexual feelings because there's a strong bond that holds them together. If you ask some people, they're just close friends. If you ask others, they're queer-coded. It's a matter or perspective, and the internet has long been a place where people feel emboldened to share their opinions on what they see.
> 
> With Clark and Bruce, however, there's always that exceptionally melodramatic page where Bruce tells Alfred to screen Clark's call and Clark tears up. I don't think you can read that one any differently than soap opera romance, but over their history I think it's pretty conclusively proven where their interests lie and it's not with each other. The internet does seem preoccupied more with sexual/romantic relationships than any other, so if you see anyone with a significant bond, someone ships them. My brief interactions with the Supernatural community tells me that being blood brothers isn't enough to deter that, so take that as you will.


You should see some of the on-panel stuff for Cap and Iron Man. 



> My read on Tim wasn't queer, but his handling of Conner's death and the fallout afterward did feel like there was more there so I see it because of that.


I always read the "more" to be the fact that Conner was the last in a string of him losing loved ones and people close to him in quick order (his dad, Steph, then Conner...maybe someone else I'm missing. I guess Cass turning evil? I forget the timeframe for that).

----------


## Robanker

> You should see some of the on-panel stuff for Cap and Iron Man. 
> 
> I always read the "more" to be the fact that Conner was the last in a string of him losing loved ones and people close to him in quick order (his dad, Steph, then Conner...maybe someone else I'm missing. I guess Cass turning evil? I forget the timeframe for that).


Please. I'm a Star Trek TOS fan. This stuff is mild compared to that.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Please. I'm a Star Trek TOS fan. This stuff is mild compared to that.


I've watched many an anime  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The internet views all characters as whatever best fits their ships of interest. It's never been exclusive to superheroes. Hell, the characters need not even interact half the time. lol
> 
> Every character is more or less coded for whatever you want them to be. The X-Men are the ur-example. They're coded for every marginalized group because they're a marginalized group and when you look at that from the perspective of a specific angle, it works. I had many friends tell me the X-Men are black, Jewish, gay, etc. It just comes down to "they're outsiders unjustly excluded because they're different" and this is the particular group I identify with most, so that's what I see.
> 
> Same with lots of the relationships that get interpreted as sexual or romantic (and I don't just mean queer ones). A good example is Jon and Kathy from the Rebirth run of Superman. By all accounts, they're pretty much just friends, but a lot of people read "childhood budding romance" because they wanted to see it there. Likewise, Clark and Bruce are practically brothers, but some read them as having repressed sexual feelings because there's a strong bond that holds them together. If you ask some people, they're just close friends. If you ask others, they're queer-coded. It's a matter or perspective, and the internet has long been a place where people feel emboldened to share their opinions on what they see.
> 
> With Clark and Bruce, however, there's always that exceptionally melodramatic page where Bruce tells Alfred to screen Clark's call and Clark tears up. I don't think you can read that one any differently than soap opera romance, but over their history I think it's pretty conclusively proven where their interests lie and it's not with each other. The internet does seem preoccupied more with sexual/romantic relationships than any other, so if you see anyone with a significant bond, someone ships them. My brief interactions with the Supernatural community tells me that being blood brothers isn't enough to deter that, so take that as you will.
> 
> My read on Tim wasn't queer, but his handling of Conner's death and the fallout afterward did feel like there was more there so I see it because of that.


Like you say, I never really get the appeal of incest ships. Be it the Supernatural brothers as the big one, the people who shipped Jon and Sansa on GOT (be they under the impression they were half siblings or cousins, either way), the siblings in the Narnia books, Shinji and Rei (she's a clone of his mom), etc. it's all SUPER weird and uncomfortable. For the characters who never interact, that one is weird by I theorize it may have something to do with a person identifying/seeing themselves in one character and being attracted to another, so they ship it for a vicarious thing even when the characters barely (if ever) interact.

Canonically yeah, Bruce and Clark are pretty much straight and view each other as brother figures and fans "ship" them largely as a laugh at their super intense melodramatic bond. It's a case that if DC would ever pull the trigger we have some examples to fall back on, but we all collectively know they never seriously would. 

But with all the inherent camp and bright colors and spandex and muscular pretty people...the genre as a whole is inherently a little bit gay lol. So I can see why it attracts these readings just as much (if not a little more) than other genres.

----------


## Robanker

> Like you say, I never really get the appeal of incest ships. Be it the Supernatural brothers as the big one, the people who shipped Jon and Sansa on GOT (be they under the impression they were half siblings or cousins, either way), the siblings in the Narnia books, Shinji and Rei (she's a clone of his mom), etc. it's all SUPER weird and uncomfortable. For the characters who never interact, that one is weird by I theorize it may have something to do with a person identifying/seeing themselves in one character and being attracted to another, so they ship it for a vicarious thing even when the characters barely (if ever) interact.
> 
> Canonically yeah, Bruce and Clark are pretty much straight and view each other as brother figures and fans "ship" them largely as a laugh at their super intense melodramatic bond. It's a case that if DC would ever pull the trigger we have some examples to fall back on, but we all collectively know they never seriously would. 
> 
> But with all the inherent camp and bright colors and spandex and muscular pretty people...the genre as a whole is inherently a little bit gay lol. So I can see why it attracts these readings just as much (if not a little more) than other genres.


Oh, there's a lot that's homoerotic about superhero comics.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But my argument is that shipping seldom comes from places that makes sense as opposed to who the person likes seeing together or if someone has a self-insert character (Bruce Timm and Batman) and wanting to live vicariously through them.

The checklist usually feels like "did they talk to each other? I can ship it." 

Some ships are very well-thought out and make a lot of sense, but I don't look at the wants of the internet to naturally mean it's supported in the material or that it's a good idea. The internet wants what it wants. There's a reason these books have editors and aren't just crowdsourced using stawpolls, you know?

----------


## godisawesome

> Oh, there's a lot that's homoerotic about superhero comics. 
> 
> But my argument is that shipping seldom comes from places that makes sense as opposed to who the person likes seeing together or if someone has a self-insert character (Bruce Timm and Batman) and wanting to live vicariously through them.
> 
> The checklist usually feels like "did they talk to each other? I can ship it." 
> 
> Some ships are very well-thought out and make a lot of sense, but I don't look at the wants of the internet to naturally mean it's supported in the material or that it's a good idea. The internet wants what it wants. There's a reason these books have editors and aren't just crowdsourced using stawpolls, you know?


Forget “did they talk to each other;” it only needs them to exist and be pretty enough. _And sometimes not even that_. And all too often, it only gets supercharged if you try to make it antagonistic - even violently, loathsomely so.

Trust me; I made the mistake of watching The Last Jedi expecting Rey to still treat Kylo like a Neo-Nazi School Shooter whole tortured her and violated her friends. :Stick Out Tongue: 

With Batman and his associates, the fact they’re supposed to be edgy and angsty means that they can have sexual chemistry with inanimate objects in ‘shippers eyes. Throw in anyone else with a colorful suits, and there’s probably at least a hundred fanfics about it, if not thousands.

The existence of the Batman/Joker ‘ship tells you all you need to know.

----------


## Frontier

> The existence of the Batman/Joker ‘ship tells you all you need to know.


Oh yeah, writers really like playing off the Batman/Joker subtext.

----------


## Daedalus

> Oh yeah, writers really like playing off the Batman/Joker subtext.


I think there's a fine line the writers should walk here. I love like the idea that Batman and Joker are these nemesis-soulmates, and that the Joker takes that very seriously. Not in a sexual way in any shape or form, but just that they have this kind of back-and-forth going on like old friends. It's corny and over-melodramatic in a funny way, which is what a Joker story should be. He enjoys the time he spends with Bats, and to him it's a game, and it's all in great fun, while for everyone else it's a tragedy.

This only works because the Joker is the Joker, of course. This doesn't really fit, say, Lex and Supes.

----------


## marhawkman

> I wasn't sure if she's from the Bat franchise or others like Black Canary and Zinda


She was actually a new character introduced in Birds of Prey specifically to annoy Barbara by trying to be Batgirl.  So Barbara shows Charlie a bunch of pictures of what happens to people named "Batgirl".  Charlie nearly pukes then promises to never use the name Batgirl again..... If you were paying attention, you're probably wondering why I haven't said anything about her "Misfit" codename... yeah... well that's what she does after she stops being Batgirl.

----------


## Gaius

The really exceptional modern adaptations of Joker in other media owe little to the comics as it what makes them entertaining is largely due to skill of the actor playing him like Nicolson just playing himself, Ledger, and Phoenix just riffing on early DeNiro roles. 

Trying to do a modern accurate to the comics Joker just gets you Leto's Joker.

----------


## Frontier

> The really exceptional modern adaptations of Joker in other media owe little to the comics as it what makes them entertaining is largely due to skill of the actor playing him like Nicolson just playing himself, Ledger, and Phoenix just riffing on early DeNiro roles. 
> 
> Trying to do a modern accurate to the comics Joker just gets you Leto's Joker.


Nicholson was really playing himself :P? 

A lot of people seem to prefer comic Joker ala B:TAS Joker instead of the more try-hard Jokers.

----------


## Gaius

> Nicholson was really playing himself :P? 
> 
> A lot of people seem to prefer comic Joker ala B:TAS Joker instead of the more try-hard Jokers.


More like it's not that different a performance from what he usually gives by that point in his career.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And I guess time to gut this sacred cow, but I've never gotten what made DCAU Joker "definitive". Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the B:TAS so I have no real particular reverence for it.

----------


## Frontier

> More like it's not that different a performance from what he usually gives by that point in his career. 
> 
> And I guess time to gut this sacred cow, but I've never gotten what made DCAU Joker "definitive". Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the B:TAS so I have no real particular reverence for it.


I know you enjoyed Joker in _The Batman_ cartoon and I've always felt personality-wise they were pretty similar. 

DCAU Joker is usually seen as definitive for Mark Hamill's performance and how he personified a lot of recognizable Joker stuff for audiences at the time.

----------


## Vakanai

> Trying to do a modern accurate to the comics Joker just gets you Leto's Joker.


Okay, I might not keep up with the basic in continuity comics as much (think the most recent in continuity Joker I read was War of Jokes and Riddles) but there's no way modern accurate to comics Joker is Leto's.

----------


## Gaius

> I know you enjoyed Joker in _The Batman_ cartoon and I've always felt personality-wise they were pretty similar. 
> 
> DCAU Joker is usually seen as definitive for Mark Hamill's performance and how he personified a lot of recognizable Joker stuff for audiences at the time.


Maybe it's the different voices but the two didn't strike me that similar. Though the drastic design differences probably also didn't help. 

Though like I said, I grew up with _The Batman_ while I didn't catch much of the DCAU at all during it's original aside from the odd dvd we rented.

----------


## Daedalus

> More like it's not that different a performance from what he usually gives by that point in his career. 
> 
> And I guess time to gut this sacred cow, but I've never gotten what made DCAU Joker "definitive". Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the B:TAS so I have no real particular reverence for it.


I think he is just the _classic_ Joker, so it was a short step to becoming _definitive_. He is wearing a suit, and his hair is not crazy. He is funny and weirdly endearing, while at the same time being somewhat terrifying. Mark Hamill is also clearly enjoying himself.

I'm not a "BTAS can do no wrong" man, but I understand why we look back to that. He looks like the Joker looked before, sounds like the Joker _could_ sound, and is entertaining to watch.

Everyone that came after that tried to diverge from it, to different degrees of success. I think John DiMaggio's take in _Under the Red Hood_ is also pretty great, from design to voice.

----------


## Marik Swift

I saw nothing wrong with Bruce/Barbs sleeping together.

Like, I prefer for it not to be canon to the main universe, but overall I see nothing wrong with it happening in AUs.

I mean, maybe it's because I'm in the "Barbs should be older" camp, but overall I would say it's a much more natural pairing than her being paired off with Jason or Tim (Arkham games).

----------


## TheRay

Batman can still tell good stories regardless of if the ending is necessarily happy or not.

----------


## Restingvoice

> More like it's not that different a performance from what he usually gives by that point in his career. 
> 
> And I guess time to gut this sacred cow, but I've never gotten what made DCAU Joker "definitive". Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the B:TAS so I have no real particular reverence for it.


At the time there were only 3 voice for Joker that people know. Jack Nicholson, Cesar Romero, and Mark Hamill. Aside from voice, BTAS gave visual and writing that match, so it comes as a more complete package.

----------


## marhawkman

> I saw nothing wrong with Bruce/Barbs sleeping together.
> 
> Like, I prefer for it not to be canon to the main universe, but overall I see nothing wrong with it happening in AUs.
> 
> I mean, maybe it's because I'm in the "Barbs should be older" camp, but overall I would say it's a much more natural pairing than her being paired off with Jason or Tim (Arkham games).


Especially when you look at how in Birds of Prey she's treated almost as a mother figure by Misfit.

----------


## phonogram12

Amazingly enough, my biggest problem with The Killing Joke animated adaptation wasn't the first half that they wrote for the movie where Babs and Bruce slept together (if we go by when the book was actually published, she probably would've been she probably would've been around 27 and he would've been 35). It was actually with the straight up adaptation second half that irked me. While I generally enjoy beat-for-beat adaptations for these animated films, this one just revealed how depressing for depressings sake the original story was.

I'm with Alan Moore. This was def one of his weaker works that almost doesn't even need to exist since there was literally no character arc for either of the leads and there was no change to their relationship whatsoever. The only lasting change was to Barbara, which wasn't even done for the sake of the character, herself, but as a motivating factor for Batman.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

For some reason the part of The Killing Joke where they adapted the book directly wasn't animated like an animated movie.  It was more like taking the panels from the comics and giving them as little animation as they could get away with so as to match the look of the comic beat for beat.  It meant there was a lack of motion or energy to the characters where both were desperately needed.  We needed to see the motions between the comic panels and we didn't get that.  Work like The Dark Knight Returns does better at filling in between the panels like an animated movie is supposed to do.

----------


## Micael

> Amazingly enough, my biggest problem with The Killing Joke animated adaptation wasn't the first half that they wrote for the movie where Babs and Bruce slept together (if we go by when the book was actually published, she probably would've been she probably would've been around 27 and he would've been 35).


Is Batman's age ever referenced any where besides Year One. Where does this constant idea that he's in in his mid 30's comes from?

----------


## Aahz

> Is Batman's age ever referenced any where besides Year One. Where does this constant idea that he's in in his mid 30's comes from?


In pre crisis it was said on several occasions through out the whole continuity, that he has been batman for 10 years, or that his parents were killed 25 years ago.

Both would put him in his early to mid 30s.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Bruce started to be depicted as older when Dick became Nightwing.  This kid he'd taken in and raised for at least 5 years was now an adult, and they were never supposed to be close in age.  Having two more Robins aged Bruce up further, to the point that by Knightfall he was stated to longer be in his prime.  Going by The Dark Knight Returns, during the period Jason was Robin Bruce would have been in his mid-40s.  That has him retire upon Jason's death and come out of retirement 10 years later at the age of 55.

----------


## phonogram12

> Is Batman's age ever referenced any where besides Year One. Where does this constant idea that he's in in his mid 30's comes from?


I just did my own math. Year One, Year Two, plus around 6 years with Dick as Robin, then plus another two since it happened shortly before The Joker killed Jason.

Yours may differ.

----------


## Alan2099

I've never gotten who people will often talk about Joker being obsessed with Batman, having a past he doesn't remember, a personality that changes randomly, and being an agent of chaos and then turn right around and say Mark Hamil's Joker is the best one ever.  

Hamil's Joker has none of those characteristics.  

Hamill's Joker knows who he is and where he comes from, doesn't care about spreading chaos, he just wants to have fun in his own _unique_ way, and would shoot Batman in the head the first chance he got.

----------


## marhawkman

> I've never gotten who people will often talk about Joker being obsessed with Batman, having a past he doesn't remember, a personality that changes randomly, and being an agent of chaos and then turn right around and say Mark Hamil's Joker is the best one ever.  
> 
> Hamil's Joker has none of those characteristics.  
> 
> Hamill's Joker knows who he is and where he comes from, doesn't care about spreading chaos, he just wants to have fun in his own _unique_ way, and would shoot Batman in the head the first chance he got.


See... I've heard people say all of those things about the Joker.... but never at the same time.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I've never gotten who people will often talk about Joker being obsessed with Batman, having a past he doesn't remember, a personality that changes randomly, and being an agent of chaos and then turn right around and say Mark Hamil's Joker is the best one ever.  
> 
> Hamil's Joker has none of those characteristics.  
> 
> Hamill's Joker knows who he is and where he comes from, doesn't care about spreading chaos, he just wants to have fun in his own _unique_ way, and would shoot Batman in the head the first chance he got.


Yeah, in Mad Love, Joker threw Harley out a window and then let Batman down from her trap and began to wander off. Only a few seconds later, he had a change of opinion...

----------


## Marik Swift

Catwoman cheating on Bruce would have been a better alternative for calling off the marriage than what we got.

- - - - - - - -

Like, for some odd reason people tend to get up in arms when it comes to infidelity, meanwhile don't bat an eye at characters killing, etc. But as a Catwoman fan, lets be real it's completely in character for Selina to cheat. Lying, stealing and cheating is literally what her character is built upon.

----------


## godisawesome

> Catwoman cheating on Bruce would have been a better alternative for calling off the marriage than what we got.
> 
> - - - - - - - -
> 
> Like, for some odd reason people tend to get up in arms when it comes to infidelity, meanwhile don't bat an eye at characters killing, etc. But as a Catwoman fan, lets be real it's completely in character for Selina to cheat. Lying, stealing and cheating is literally what her character is built upon.


I feel like calling off the marriage would be a mistake either way… but having it go off successfully, and _then_ they break up later for some reason?

That feels like it would have outmaneuvered the meta-textual waste of building towards a marriage only to not do it - which was the real problem - and then allow realistic, in-character portrayals to eventually cause a problem. People were excited for the marriage for more than just ‘shipping reasons; it was probably more that it was a potential status quo shift that made it sound intriguing and interesting. 

Whether it was a dumb “Bane plants a rumor” idea, Selina cheating on Bruce, Bruce cheating on Selina, whatever it could be, the mistake was teasing a status quo change than juking away from it and postponing it for so long people got sick of the whole story.

Personally, I think having them get married, than have things get stormy later is the better idea, especially if you use both characters. *Both* Bruce and Selina have plenty of character flaws that would impede a long term relationship, and Bruce causing an estrangement, divorce or breakup would arguably be the better dramatic way to go with it just because the hero screwing up is more interesting than the former-villainess doing so.

…Then I’d embrace the full soap-opera/sitcom potential of Bruce and Selina being an on-again, off-again married/estranged/divorced couple going forward.

Maybe my personal controversial opinion is that “single and ready to mingle” Bruce isn’t actually as interesting as either just an all-business Batman or being with one of his more interesting love interest. No one really cares about his more “mundane” love interests, and the escapist part of his allure actually doesn’t benefit that much from “interchangeable hot regular chick #5”; Vicky Vale and others just don’t have staying power. 

Batman may align with James Bond style heroes in that audience’s like a vicarious love life, but people enjoy the developed and extraordinary characters much more than the forgettable “Bond Girl” types.
.

----------


## Agent Z

> Catwoman cheating on Bruce would have been a better alternative for calling off the marriage than what we got.
> 
> - - - - - - - -
> 
> Like, for some odd reason people tend to get up in arms when it comes to infidelity, meanwhile don't bat an eye at characters killing, etc. But as a Catwoman fan, lets be real it's completely in character for Selina to cheat. Lying, stealing and cheating is literally what her character is built upon.


You're kidding right? People lose their minds over DC characters killing. Tom King got death threats over Poison Ivy killing a bunch of guys who tried to murder her and fans have been up in arms over the movie and tv versions of DC heroes using lethal force regardless of if it is justified.

And Selina being a thief and her cheating on her romantic partners are two different things.

----------


## Marik Swift

> I feel like calling off the marriage would be a mistake either way… but having it go off successfully, and _then_ they break up later for some reason?
> 
> That feels like it would have outmaneuvered the meta-textual waste of building towards a marriage only to not do it - which was the real problem - and then allow realistic, in-character portrayals to eventually cause a problem. People were excited for the marriage for more than just ‘shipping reasons; it was probably more that it was a potential status quo shift that made it sound intriguing and interesting. 
> 
> Whether it was a dumb “Bane plants a rumor” idea, Selina cheating on Bruce, Bruce cheating on Selina, whatever it could be, the mistake was teasing a status quo change than juking away from it and postponing it for so long people got sick of the whole story.
> 
> Personally, I think having them get married, than have things get stormy later is the better idea, especially if you use both characters. *Both* Bruce and Selina have plenty of character flaws that would impede a long term relationship, and Bruce causing an estrangement, divorce or breakup would arguably be the better dramatic way to go with it just because the hero screwing up is more interesting than the former-villainess doing so.
> 
> …Then I’d embrace the full soap-opera/sitcom potential of Bruce and Selina being an on-again, off-again married/estranged/divorced couple going forward.
> ...


Exactly. 

To me, they shouldn't have built up the marriage at all if they weren't going to go through it (especially since as fans we know DC hates Bruce being happy, so it was expected). But if they do decide to cancel it, it should be for actual realistic reasons — which I believe is cheating since that's the most common cause for divorce.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'm fine with Bruce and Selina never cheating on each other. It would just kill any sympathy for the partner who does the cheating (and I definitely don't like the idea of it automatically being Selina) and the audience likely would likely stop caring about them going forward. With how weird and damaged they both are, I can easily see their marriage not being able to work long term even if they never stop loving each other. They are very much a couple who would get divorced and have a constant "will they/won't they" dynamic going on until they're old and gray even if they never get married again. 

It could also be interesting to see how this dynamic would impact their parenting of Helena. The lack of stability would do a lot of damage to her if they weren't careful, would Bruce and Selina work to minimize that as much as possible while navigating their messy feelings?




> I've never gotten who people will often talk about Joker being obsessed with Batman, having a past he doesn't remember, a personality that changes randomly, and being an agent of chaos and then turn right around and say Mark Hamil's Joker is the best one ever.  
> 
> Hamil's Joker has none of those characteristics.  
> 
> Hamill's Joker knows who he is and where he comes from, doesn't care about spreading chaos, he just wants to have fun in his own _unique_ way, and would shoot Batman in the head the first chance he got.


I think DCAU Joker is as addicted to his feud with Batman and loves to get under his skin as other versions, but he also hates Batman and isn't above being caught in the moment and just considering offing him when he has the chance. But he'd probably miss having Batman around to torment on some level afterwards, but likely wouldn't retire from crime either.

Agreed that him being a more consistent character and not having any "agent of chaos" bullshit helped him tremendously in being the best version of the character. It's all been downhill since then.

----------


## godisawesome

> I'm fine with Bruce and Selina never cheating on each other. It would just kill any sympathy for the partner who does the cheating (and I definitely don't like the idea of it automatically being Selina) and the audience likely would likely stop caring about them going forward. With how weird and damaged they both are, I can easily see their marriage not being able to work long term even if they never stop loving each other. They are very much a couple who would get divorced and have a constant "will they/won't they" dynamic going on until they're old and gray even if they never get married again. 
> 
> It could also be interesting to see how this dynamic would impact their parenting of Helena. The lack of stability would do a lot of damage to her if they weren't careful, would Bruce and Selina work to minimize that as much as possible while navigating their messy feelings?
> 
> 
> 
> I think DCAU Joker is as addicted to his feud with Batman and loves to get under his skin as other versions, but he also hates Batman and isn't above being caught in the moment and just considering offing him when he has the chance. But he'd probably miss having Batman around to torment on some level afterwards, but likely wouldn't retire from crime either.
> 
> Agreed that him being a more consistent character and not having any "agent of chaos" bullshit helped him tremendously in being the best version of the character. It's all been downhill since then.


Bruce’s supervillain-targeting paranoia and Selina’s inherent contrariness and rebelliousness would be far more sympathetic of a reason for them to have a tumultuous long term relationship than outright cheating on each other; don't get me wrong, it would make sense for them to have other relationships during an “off period” but audiences would enjoy a less “treacherous” emotional breakdown between them.

One thing I enjoy about Hamill’s Joker is that he usually is shown to be genuinely greedy, even if it’s far, far away from his sole motivation. And it’s fun to have him basically face late between “I’m doing soemthing for the sheer, over-the-top spite of it” and “Money!”

----------


## TheRay

Personally, I like the idea of Batman training kids to be his mercenaries. I know how that sounds, but if you think about it thats how old Batman was when he started. He also usually doesnt just pluck random kids off the street, but rather kids who have been through something that would motivate them to pursue a life like that. He also lets them see his Bruce Wayne side, something he doesnt do for just anybody, which is a big deal because he wants people to fear him, but not these kids, whether they end up doing so anyway is another matter.

----------


## godisawesome

> Personally, I like the idea of Batman training kids to be his mercenaries. I know how that sounds, but if you think about it that’s how old Batman was when he started. He also usually doesn’t just pluck random kids off the street, but rather kids who have been through something that would motivate them to pursue a life like that. He also lets them see his Bruce Wayne side, something he doesn’t do for just anybody, which is a big deal because he wants people to fear him, but not these kids, whether they end up doing so anyway is another matter.


I prefer to think of them as “apprentices” but I agree with the fact that it works for Batman, however weird it may be.

Really, I think that someone should have Ra’s use that as one of his biggest arguments why he thinks Batman would be a good successor.

----------


## JediBatman54

Joker should be just a sad Clown like in the Joker movie not a criminal mastermind or agent of chaos or Batman counterpart
Batman is not a hero he is a vigilante he is crazy like the guys he want to catch
I dont like the idea of Batman having Robins if he have someone should be only Dick 
Batman Animated series are good but overrated

----------


## TheRay

> Really, I think that someone should have Ra’s use that as one of his biggest arguments why he thinks Batman would be a good successor.


I'm not a fan of Ra's looking for a successor, but sure.

----------


## JediBatman54

Golden Age Batman is very underrated
Love the concept of Batman  but I don't like how he is depicted in most comics and movies

----------


## dietrich

> Personally, I like the idea of Batman training kids to be his mercenaries. I know how that sounds, but if you think about it thats how old Batman was when he started. He also usually doesnt just pluck random kids off the street, but rather kids who have been through something that would motivate them to pursue a life like that. He also lets them see his Bruce Wayne side, something he doesnt do for just anybody, which is a big deal because he wants people to fear him, but not these kids, whether they end up doing so anyway is another matter.


That only applies to BatmanBruce / RobinDick Grayson and DickBats / RobinDamian and it only works for those two narratives.

Bruce met Dick early on so likely was naïve enough to think that the approach was a sound and reasonable one.  with the rest Bruce has been crime fighting long enough to know that the lifestyle isn't one to be encouraged.

He saw himself in the young Dick Grayson unlike with the rest and he didn't know any better at the time when he met Dick.

Jason had been through stuff but Bruce didn't predict that he was heading down the vigilante path.
Tim hadn't been through anything, there was no indication he was ever going to become a vigilante and Bruce having just lost Jason 100% knew better.

Damian was at a similar age as Dick was when he lost his folks.
Damian was already living the life so it made sense and works

----------


## TheRay

Actually, Jason has an origin in which his parents are murdered by Killer Croc.
Tim witnessed Nightwing’s parents murder and deduced Batman’s identity and was inspired by him. He was training himself. If not for the death of Jason, he wouldn’t have been motivated to seek Batman out, but he did have signs of becoming a vigilante. At least he was capable enough for it.

----------


## Aahz

> Damian was at a similar age as Dick was when he lost his folks.


Not really in stories that are actually set around that time Dick is usually 12, so he is close to Jason's (12) and Tim's (13) original starting ages, than to Damian's (10).

----------


## dietrich

> I prefer to think of them as apprentices but I agree with the fact that it works for Batman, however weird it may be.
> 
> Really, I think that someone should have Ras use that as one of his biggest arguments why he thinks Batman would be a good successor.


It doesn't work after Jason.

----------


## dietrich

> Not really in stories that are actually set around that time Dick is usually 12, so he is close to Jason's (12) and Tim's (13) original starting ages, than to Damian's (10).


Dick Grayson age 12 is Miller. Dick was younger. 

However the key thing about age isn't that 12-13 yr olds make it work [that is a negative] 

The important aspect is the mentor can empathise with the situation of the kid at the time. That is only present in Bruce/Dick and dick/Damian

----------


## dietrich

> Actually, Jason has an origin in which his parents are murdered by Killer Croc.
> Tim witnessed Nightwing’s parents murder and deduced Batman’s identity and was inspired by him. He was training himself. If not for the death of Jason, he wouldn’t have been motivated to seek Batman out, but he did have signs of becoming a vigilante. At least he was capable enough for it.


Tim is Bruce's greatest failure. There is no logical or valid reason why a man grieving his kid/sidekicks brutal murder should ever take another father's son and proceed to put them in the same dangerous situation.

At that point even a Dounce would hire a meta/an adult unless the goal is to see how many minors you can lead to their death.

His parents didn't die.
power walking or chin ups in his bedroom doorway don't count.
Wanting to be part of the team you stan to the point you stalk them and harass them for membership when the last member's seat is still warm is all kinds of red flags.

not something bruce would do. Not something Dick would encourage. Alfred might.

----------


## TheRay

No, he's not. All of Tim's actions were of his own choice. If Batman didn't take him in, he definitely would have struck out on his own. 
Tim trained in martial arts, acrobatics, and gymnastics. His parents may not have died, but they were seldom around, but it doesn't really matter if his parents died or not.

----------


## phonogram12

> Dick Grayson age 12 is Miller. Dick was younger.


Actually, it was pre-Miller as well in at least two origin stories going back to the '80s:

61sEZKHPwsL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

----------


## TheRay

Batwoman could still do with an Origin title.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Actually, it was pre-Miller as well in at least two origin stories going back to the '80s:
> 
> 61sEZKHPwsL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


The 80's one is 10. Robin Year One's 12, or to be exact, starting middle school. 




> Batwoman could still do with an Origin title.


There's Batwoman Year One in Detective Comics Rebirth

----------


## TheRay

I’m only seeing Batgirl.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I’m only seeing Batgirl.


Sorry it was Batwoman Begins. It's a two issue story arc, and I don't know if it's collected in Detective Comics or in Batwoman trade.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . There's Batwoman Year One in Detective Comics Rebirth





> Sorry it was Batwoman Begins. It's a two issue story arc, and I don't know if it's collected in Detective Comics or in Batwoman trade.


There was "Batwoman Begins!" in *52* #11 (from 2006).


The two-issue _Rebirth_ story was in *Detective Comics #948-949* 
(which I've never bothered reading).


Those two issues appear to have been collected in *Batman: Detective Comics #2 - The Victim Syndicate*

----------


## JediBatman54

Killing Joke should be an elseworld not of fan of DC waiting to make this story canon
Three Jokers is overrated the Gotham show do something simillar and dont like it

kid Dick Robin>>> Adult Robin, other Robins, Nightwing

----------


## marhawkman

> Killing Joke should be an elseworld not of fan of DC waiting to make this story canon
> Three Jokers is overrated the Gotham show do something simillar and dont like it
> 
> kid Dick Robin>>> Adult Robin, other Robins, Nightwing


Best Dick Grayson was when he was the sidekick of Kal-El.   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## DrewHLMW

Killing Joke sucks.
Year One is overrarted and Zero Year is much better than it.
Tom King's Batman run is the worst run in Batman history since Denny O'Neil saved him in 1970.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I think with how little they use other Batfamily members maybe we should get the Batfam lessen.  It's getting too much they are not using all the characters and would rather always just have them there but do nothing. I wouldn't mind if they are just giving their own group so they aren't in the Batfam but still exist. Like Bette will pop up but they don't know what to do with her. I think maybe have her set up Titans West again. Or Misfit be in the Bop but then again she is more BoP. They keep adding to the Batfam but they do it because they don't know what to do with other character it feels to me

----------


## TheRay

How has Nightwing not gotten his own sidekick(s) at this point?

----------


## Caivu

> Batwoman could still do with an Origin title.


That would be "Go" (Detective Comics #858-860).

----------


## dietrich

> No, he's not. All of Tim's actions were of his own choice. If Batman didn't take him in, he definitely would have struck out on his own. 
> Tim trained in martial arts, acrobatics, and gymnastics. His parents may not have died, but they were seldom around, but it doesn't really matter if his parents died or not.


Yoy are of the personal opinion that he would have struck out on his own but Tim himself was only in it to help Batman. 

He was in it because batman needs a Robin. He thought that B&R was a symbol. He noticed a change in batman and that was what prompted him to enter the world of crime fighting. so No he would not have struck out on his own.

I've been enrolled in martial art classes since Primary school doesn't mean that I'm trained.

----------


## TheRay

Again, yes he would have struck out on his own if Jason Todd had been there because he was initially inspired by Batman and Robin when Nightwing was still in the Robin role. He didn't even plan on having anything to do with Robin until he felt Batman needed a Robin and, even then, he had to be encouraged by Dick and Alfred to do so.

----------


## Godlike13

Um, Tim’s original goal was to get Dick to be Robin again. Tim didn’t even see himself as a lifer. The plan was to do his time then move on with his civilian life. One can make a pretty good argument Robin ruined his life.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

First off, if Jason hadn't been killed Tim wouldn't exist, so he couldn't have struck out on his own.  He wouldn't have been a twinkle in any creator's eye.  Even then, he did not set out with the goal of becoming Robin or a superhero.  He was the fanboy who was trying to get the band back together and only decided to become Robin when Dick refused to give up being Nightwing to go back to being Robin.  Assuming he existed, he wouldn't have put on tights or done any superhero work during his teenaged years.  If anything he would have become a cop/detective as an adult.

----------


## TheRay

Okay now you're talking about meta stuff. That's not the argument I signed up for, you can have fun having that discussion with somebody else.

----------


## Aahz

> One can make a pretty good argument Robin ruined his life.


Not really. I mean the death of his mother had nothing to do with him being Robin (in training) and without Batman getting envolved his father might have also died at that point.

----------


## Godlike13

> Okay now you're talking about meta stuff. That's not the argument I signed up for, you can have fun having that discussion with somebody else.


Meta stuff was barely brought up. 




> Not really. I mean the death of his mother had nothing to do with him being Robin (in training) and without Batman getting envolved his father might have also died at that point.


He still had a father, a home, and support. Being Robin directly caused his father to die and derailed any envisioned life outside of being Robin. His family, education, career goals. Being Robin ultimately destroyed them all. Tim is a moderately accomplished Robin, with no family, higher education, or career. What he said he wanted in life, Robin ultimately cost him. Even as a superhero every thing after Robin has kind of flopped for him as he failed to adapt out of the shadow of his Robin.

----------


## TheRay

> Meta stuff was barely brought up.


You must not be reading the posts or are willfully ignoring it.

----------


## dietrich

> You must not be reading the posts or are willfully ignoring it.


 Tim's motivation being to get batman and Robin back together isn't meta
Tim's original goal and drive being getting Dick to return to Bruce's side as Robin isn't meta
Tim not seeking to get into the crimefighting life isn't meta.
Tim becoming Robin temporarily until someone else comes along isn't meta
Tim seeing Robin and heroics as a temporary gig isn't meta
Tim saying that he only cared about being Robin a sidekick isn't meta
Tim only being prompted by jason death and the change in batman isn't meta.

These are all information we are told clearly in the comics. Almost of it by Tim himself.
By his own words it was never something he had ever considered and it wasn't something he planned to do on a longterm basis. 

He took it because there was no other option and on the basis that he'd give it up and return to his regular life as soon as someone suitable came along.

Tim was never on the vigilante path.

----------


## dietrich

> Again, yes he would have struck out on his own if Jason Todd had been there because he was initially inspired by Batman and Robin when Nightwing was still in the Robin role. He didn't even plan on having anything to do with Robin until he felt Batman needed a Robin and, even then, he had to be encouraged by Dick and Alfred to do so.


No. He was a fan of the duo that doesn't mean he was headed down that path. being a fan and being inspired to follow their lead are not the same.

Agreed. He didn't plan on having anything to do with crime fighting until he felt Batman needed a robin.
he took the job because there wasn't anyone else available.

----------


## TheRay

No, he was inspired by them. That is the exact phrasing used for his character.

----------


## Aahz

> He still had a father, a home, and support. Being Robin directly caused his father to die and derailed any envisioned life outside of being Robin. His family, education, career goals. Being Robin ultimately destroyed them all. Tim is a moderately accomplished Robin, with no family, higher education, or career. What he said he wanted in life, Robin ultimately cost him. Even as a superhero every thing after Robin has kind of flopped for him as he failed to adapt out of the shadow of his Robin.


Thing is Tim's father might not have lived that long when Tim hadn't been Robin.

I he would have very likely have also died in the story where Tim's mother died, if Batman hadn't come to rescue them, and it is at least imo not 100% sure that he would have done that with out having a connection to Tim.

Later during Knightfall Tim's father got kidnapped by Benedict Asp alongside Shondra Kinsolving (which had iirc also nothing to do with Tim being Robin), despite having his Back broken by Bane, Bruce went to rescue them, leaving Gotham in the hands of Azrael, which he very likely wouldn't have done if didn't had a personal connection to Tim.

And there was also that time when his Girlfriend Ariana Dzerchenko was kidnapped by KGBeast ...

----------


## dietrich

> No, he was inspired by them. That is the exact phrasing used for his character.


Inspired to do what? Not to become a crime fighter. Tim was attached to Dick Grayson and he was a fan. Again that doesn't mean he was planning or was destined to pursue that lfestyle. The story and Tim himself never said he had any aspirations of following in their line of work.

It's made very clear his only goal was helping Batman getting back the status quo of Batman and Robin much like a fan who reaches out to writers/DC to bring back a character they enjoy.

Tim words tell us all we need to know. His inner thoughts tells us he never considered the path.

----------


## dietrich

> Thing is Tim's father might not have lived that long when Tim hadn't been Robin.
> 
> I he would have very likely have also died in the story where Tim's mother died, if Batman hadn't come to rescue them, and it is at least imo not 100% sure that he would have done that with out having a connection to Tim.
> 
> Later during Knightfall Tim's father got kidnapped by Benedict Asp alongside Shondra Kinsolving (which had iirc also nothing to do with Tim being Robin), despite having his Back broken by Bane, Bruce went to rescue them, leaving Gotham in the hands of Azrael, which he very likely wouldn't have done if didn't had a personal connection to Tim.
> 
> And there was also that time when his Girlfriend Ariana Dzerchenko was kidnapped by KGBeast ...


Might not and likely are assumptions which may or may not be true. They are your personal opinion. What happened that we know is the truth is that Him being Robin resulted in his fathers death.

----------


## Restingvoice

Hmm... let's say Jason never died and still Robin when Drake's flight was hijacked... Tim by this point would've already known Batman and Robin's identity because of Dick's quadruple somersault right? So as a fanboy whose parents are personally in danger now, I think he'd go either to Dick's NY apartment or the Manor and beg for his idols to save them. 

After that, who knows.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Their adding another  Female Robin Panda Girl. I mean we another add Steph and Cass and yet they add more. Isn't it time to limit the number of Batfam. I know this ain't cannon but there been a number of events that wind up being cannon. I don't mind another female Robin but Dc already having issues with allowing character growth form their own characters. Like Tim,Cass and Steph. While urban and Robins do help with Tim. We do have Duke too.  So if she does become cannon this adds less to the other characters. What do you guys think? Should we cut the family ?

https://screenrant.com/robin-panda-g...e-enterprises/

----------


## marhawkman

Yeah it used to be htey'd kill of the old one, now... well.... no.

----------


## dietrich

The argument about who's the best Robin really is just an argument over which of the Bat son's is the best at being like/copying the Dick Grayson character.

----------


## Marik Swift

> The argument about who's the best Robin really is just an argument over which of the Bat son's is the best at being like/copying the Dick Grayson character.


Lol, yup.

It's why Damian is my favourite Robin as he's not similar to Dicka at all The Robin mantle still rightfully belongs to Tim though even though Damian is my fav.

----------


## phonogram12

I just haven't seen the point of Damien since Batman & Robin ended.

----------


## TheRay

New 52 Harley is very good.

----------


## Lal

> Lol, yup.
> 
> It's why Damian is my favourite Robin as he's not similar to Dicka at all The Robin mantle still rightfully belongs to Tim though even though Damian is my fav.


Why does the Robin mantle belong to Tim? That is either Dick or Batman's decision who can carry the Robin mantle, and Dick as Batman gave Damian Robin. It doesn't get any clearer who the mantle belongs to now.

----------


## dietrich

> I just haven't seen the point of Damien since Batman & Robin ended.


Indeed. nothing worse than pointless Robin made redundant by B&R just hanging around taking up space.

I think DC should try changing his hero name/making him younger/update the character to target a marginalised group. That might help give him a point  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> Why does the Robin mantle belong to Tim? That is either Dick or Batman's decision who can carry the Robin mantle, and Dick as Batman gave Damian Robin. It doesn't get any clearer who the mantle belongs to now.


I thought it was a joke/burn comment not to be taken seriously. The first line of the post contradicts the 2nd line.

I hope it is humour.

----------


## JediBatman54

The Batman franchise should be for adults only

----------


## Fergus

> The Batman franchise should be for adults only


That would reduce the earnings drastically.

----------


## Fergus

> Lol, yup.
> 
> It's why Damian is my favourite Robin as he's not similar to Dicka at all The Robin mantle still rightfully belongs to Tim though even though Damian is my fav.


Robin is rightfully Dick Grayson's.

Tim has zero rights or dibs on Robin. He needs to move on. Tim has struggled without Robin but that doesn't mean he should go back to Robin. There has to be value in the character without Robin.

----------


## TheRay

Cass Cain is probably the happiest member of the Batfamily.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Lol, yup.
> 
> *It's why Damian is my favourite Robin as he's not similar to Dicka at all*  The Robin mantle still rightfully belongs to Tim though even though Damian is my fav.



And that's why Damian became a mainstay Robin. Dick Grayson is the best. He made Robin the successful and beloved hero it is today however sometimes change is good.
A different type of personality can be interesting.
I like Damian as Robin. He's interesting and I like that he's so different from Dick Grayson. plus I read nightwing so don't need a Dicklite as Robin since I have the OG.

The mindset that Robin is rightfully Tim's is absurd.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The argument about who's the best Robin really is just an argument over which of the Bat son's is the best at being like/copying the Dick Grayson character.


I don't know about the copying thing, but all the subsequent Robins are each a "response" to Dick's time in the role in some way. Especially post-Crisis Jason and Damian.

----------


## RobinGA

That is because Dick Grayson is the template.  
All Robins are stepping into Dick's shoes.  
Even though sadly they have abandoned the pointy green ones.  

It isn't these characters fault.  But it is pretty much an 
impossible task to replace all that Grayson achieved as the original 
Robin.

----------


## TheRay

I'm glad we're getting more Ivy/Harley, but maybe they need some more redemption.

----------


## phonogram12

> Indeed. nothing worse than pointless Robin made redundant by B&R just hanging around taking up space.
> 
> I think DC should try changing his hero name/making him younger/update the character to target a marginalised group. That might help give him a point


I mean, anything with Damien would help at this point.




> I don't know about the copying thing, but all the subsequent Robins are each a "response" to Dick's time in the role in some way. Especially post-Crisis Jason and Damian.


Agreed.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't know about the copying thing, but all the subsequent Robins are each a "response" to Dick's time in the role in some way. Especially post-Crisis Jason and Damian.



Dick Grayson is Robin. His character, behaviour, values, traits, personality, actions and reactions in the role became what Robin stood for.

The shared understanding That exists today of what Robin is and what the ideal Robin should be is informed by Dick Grayson simply being himself. Literally.



So yep copy.

----------


## Micael

Dick doesn't really want to be Batman but if Bruce is not around or retires Dick won't allow anyone to pass him over to wear the cowl. I feel like deep down he knows he's the true successor and should always be the first choice so if he's in his prime and available all other character should get back in the line. Of course he will never express this feeling out loud but he knows that if it's not Bruce it's him.

----------


## Gaius

Glorified diamond thief Mr. Freeze from _The Batman_ > Sob story one-trick pony Mr. Freeze from B:TAS.

----------


## Frontier

> Glorified diamond thief Mr. Freeze from _The Batman_ > Sob story one-trick pony Mr. Freeze from B:TAS.


I mean, I like Clancy Brown...

----------


## Tzigone

> Glorified diamond thief Mr. Freeze from _The Batman_ > Sob story one-trick pony Mr. Freeze from B:TAS.


I have to agree B:TAS only works as a one-and-done to keep him in the "sympathetic villain" role. And I strongly _disagree_ with the notion of him turning hero. He didn't turn villain to save his wife - he turned villain to to get revenge on those (he thought) killed her.

----------


## phonogram12

I mean, IMHO, they should just stop doing Mr. Freeze stories in general. They are literally never going to top TAS version and any attempt will simply fail miserably. The only possible exception being a live action adaptation. While some people may see that more as a hindrance than a help, I personally think it's worth it for a story of that caliber who's never had a single memorable story prior to that.

----------


## Gaius

> I have to agree B:TAS only works as a one-and-done to keep him in the "sympathetic villain" role. And I strongly _disagree_ with the notion of him turning hero. He didn't turn villain to save his wife - he turned villain to to get revenge on those (he thought) killed her.


Yep, recent years I've soured big time on a lot of the "sympathetic" "please pity me" stories of a lot of the Bat-rogues. Harley and her body count will be always be the worst offender of the lot but Freeze's act has gotten tiresome also.

----------


## Frontier

> I have to agree B:TAS only works as a one-and-done to keep him in the "sympathetic villain" role. And I strongly _disagree_ with the notion of him turning hero. He didn't turn villain to save his wife - he turned villain to to get revenge on those (he thought) killed her.


Has anyone ever wanted to see him turned into a hero?



> I mean, IMHO, they should just stop doing Mr. Freeze stories in general. They are literally never going to top TAS version and any attempt will simply fail miserably. The only possible exception being a live action adaptation. While some people may see that more as a hindrance than a help, I personally think it's worth it for a story of that caliber who's never had a single memorable story prior to that.


I think _Arkham_ and HQ Freeze worked out pretty well (although those both had pretty finite endings). 

_Gotham_ kind of wasted him by killing Nora off instead of freezing her so he just became a generic goon who freezes stuff. 

I think there is a certain mileage you can get out of the character but I think a villain stands out more with a little bit of pathos than just relying solely on a visual gimmick/power. Of course his stoic and cold personality also helps.

----------


## Blue22

> I'm glad we're getting more Ivy/Harley, but maybe they need some more redemption.


Eh. I think they're both good where they are right now. Especially Harley. I like the idea that Ivy isn't a straight up villain anymore but I don't think I want her to be a hero either.

----------


## Frontier

> Eh. I think they're both good where they are right now. Especially Harley. I like the idea that Ivy isn't a straight up villain anymore but I don't think I want her to be a hero either.


Non-villain Ivy just seems kind of dull to me.

----------


## Blue22

> Non-villain Ivy just seems kind of dull to me.


I like her going from a villain to someone who just wants to be left alone, but keeps getting dragged into either Batman's bullshit or Harley's. Reformed (or partially reformed) villains always interest me. It's not something I'd want for all of them, of course. But I like the ones that they have picked to go down that road. Especially Harley, Ivy, and Clayface.

----------


## Frontier

> I like her going from a villain to someone who just wants to be left alone, but keeps getting dragged into either Batman's bullshit or Harley's. Reformed (or partially reformed) villains always interest me. It's not something I'd want for all of them, of course. But I like the ones that they have picked to go down that road. Especially Harley, Ivy, and Clayface.


At times I honestly feel like Ivy could do so much better than Harley. Even in the HQ she comes off as so much more competent and actually effective and yet she has to get stuck dealing with Harley's @#$% half-the-time  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

Completely different topic but the recent DC Super Hero Girls episode and a DC Super Friends short kind of makes me want to see Hal Jordan and Poison Ivy become a thing...

----------


## Jackalope89

> At times I honestly feel like Ivy could do so much better than Harley. Even in the HQ she comes off as so much more competent and actually effective and yet she has to get stuck dealing with Harley's @#$% half-the-time . 
> 
> Completely different topic but the recent DC Super Hero Girls episode and a DC Super Friends short kind of makes me want to see Hal Jordan and Poison Ivy become a thing...


Well, in the animated Harley Quinn show, Ivy and Kite-Man actually had a pretty good thing going. But Ivy ruined it. 

Kite-Man, at worse a petty thief/burglar, keeps getting screwed over. By Tom King (talk about depressing), DCeased (went splat against the invisible jet), and then in the animated series by being cheated on after being a pretty good guy.

----------


## Frontier

> Well, in the animated Harley Quinn show, Ivy and Kite-Man actually had a pretty good thing going. But Ivy ruined it. 
> 
> Kite-Man, at worse a petty thief/burglar, keeps getting screwed over. By Tom King (talk about depressing), DCeased (went splat against the invisible jet), and then in the animated series by being cheated on after being a pretty good guy.


Kite Man telling Harley and Ivy off at the wedding felt so satisfying  :Smile: .

----------


## TheRay

> I like the idea that Ivy isn't a straight up villain anymore but I don't think I want her to be a hero either.


Why ever not?

----------


## Tzigone

> Has anyone ever wanted to see him turned into a hero?


I am pretty sure I have seen comments here about him getting his wife Nora back and them living happily ever after, with him playing hero support (in a scientific sense) for Batman.

----------


## Janet wayne

agreed ! Except I love Jason Todd.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Has anyone ever wanted to see him turned into a hero?


Not complete hero. His number one priority is Nora, and anyone who support Nora he will support, so that means he should be a mercenary if the Wayne fund runs out. I think that's why I don't mind him working for someone like Penguin and Black Mask, because they have money, but before that happen, I need a reason why the Wayne fund runs out, because it shouldn't run out, even if currently Lucius holds it. 

Also, even with the Wayne and Fox fund, his priority is still Nora, and he will spend most of his time cooped up in his lab in Arkham, so he'll be a background character unless in exchange for the fund, he will help Batman

Yeah I think a mercenary type or hired gun works for Freeze, with a completely selfish motivation based on who can give him the most time, money, and resource on a cure.




> I like her going from a villain to someone who just wants to be left alone, but keeps getting dragged into either Batman's bullshit or Harley's.


lmao I like this concept too. It fits for a mother nature type that should be pure neutral.

----------


## TheRay

I don't really care for his "playboy" reputation. I can't think of one time when that's ever added anything to the story.

----------


## lemonpeace

the Magistrate Era is the most refreshing and cohesive the Batman/Gotham line has been in years.

----------


## TheRay

I'd be interested in seeing more of Alfred on his own.

----------


## marhawkman

> I don't really care for his "playboy" reputation. I can't think of one time when that's ever added anything to the story.


It's part of his public image as Bruce Wayne, and an aspect of why he can go without being in his private office for days at a time.  It gives people a reason to expect that finding him in person won't work.

----------


## Tzigone

> It's part of his public image as Bruce Wayne, and an aspect of why he can go without being in his private office for days at a time.  It gives people a reason to expect that finding him in person won't work.


But it's not necessary for that - it would be totally easy for him to simply not manage WE (or only be involved in big decisions/big picture stuff) and have the same effect.  There's certainly been times in the comics where he was a mostly hands-off owner.  Hell, it seems likely Thomas didn't do much about managing the business and he wasn't a playboy.  A rich person can simply decide to own and not work and no one would question their motives.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> But it's not necessary for that - it would be totally easy for him to simply not manage WE (or only be involved in big decisions/big picture stuff) and have the same effect.  There's certainly been times in the comics where he was a mostly hands-off owner.  Hell, it seems likely Thomas didn't do much about managing the business and he wasn't a playboy.  A rich person can simply decide to own and not work and no one would question their motives.


True, but pretending to be a play boy allows him to run counter to Batman's persona. Being a recluse no one seems would draw some attention, at least.

----------


## marhawkman

> True, but pretending to be a play boy allows him to run counter to Batman's persona. Being a recluse no one seems would draw some attention, at least.


Yeah, he's creating the illusion he has a busy social life, But he needs it to be something people find hard to verify.  Thus it needs to be something that logically has few witnesses but also takes a lot of time.

----------


## Fridays

Dick Grayson is the worst character to hold the Robin Mantle.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't really care for his "playboy" reputation. I can't think of one time when that's ever added anything to the story.


His playboy rep made the government not trust him to rebuild Gotham and resulted in it being condemned as No Man's Land

----------


## BlueElf94

> Dick Grayson is the worst character to hold the Robin Mantle.


You think so?  On what grounds?  I don't share your opinion but would love for you to elaborate on it a bit

----------


## TheRay

> It's part of his public image as Bruce Wayne, and an aspect of why he can go without being in his private office for days at a time.  It gives people a reason to expect that finding him in person won't work.


The same effect could be achieved if he had a more public façade in regards to Wayne Enterprises. The meetings and attention that would require would be enough and all he'd really have to do what be to install some figurehead in his place.

----------


## trokanmariel33

In the 1997 film, Alicia Silverstone's Barbara hardly talks to Bruce, which is symbolic, and makes for a great Batfamily dynamic throughout the movie; the two only speak at the beginning of Barbara's stay and the end of the movie, which is on purpose

----------


## Restingvoice

> In the 1997 film, Alicia Silverstone's Barbara hardly talks to Bruce, which is symbolic, and makes for a great Batfamily dynamic throughout the movie; the two only speak at the beginning of Barbara's stay and the end of the movie, which is on purpose


didn't know this. Symbolic of what?

----------


## trokanmariel33

> didn't know this. Symbolic of what?



Technically, I made a mistake; Barbara talks to Batman in the third act, before Batman reverts back to being Bruce at the very end. 

In terms of your question, I would say that the symbolism is the mechanism in which death throughout the film supports the universe. Not the universe of the film, but the universe of actuality. 

To be more general, though no more important, as death even in its supernatural status is still death, I think the answer lies in the comparison between Batman & Robin and the Nolan trilogy; in the Nolan trilogy, answers are the nuts and bolts of the story, which means anyone is capable of anything, symbolised by Heath Ledger's Joker's chaos and anarchy. In Batman & Robin, presentation by all (the supernatural inclusion) means that while answers are defunct, part of the presentation is avoidance. 

As humane as Batman & Robin is, its true genius is to know that certain details of existence can't be told, as in the master of existence (Bruce Wayne) knows that they must withhold certain details from all else.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

Batfam is too big and they all don't need solo/team up books. Batgirl solo should be dropped in favor of her being a main side character in Batman.Birds of Prey should be the dominant team up book (Babs, Dinah and Helena). Nightwing should be in his own editorial or a part of Titans/Justice league editorial because he needs to be developed outside far away from batfam. Jason Todd should be a re-occurring anti-hero and sometimes antagonist in Nightwing solo to contrast how they both approach vigilantism. Tim Drake and Damian should be robins and that should be a major source of conflict and the reason Tim becomes Red Robin. Nightwing should only show up in Detective Comics or in minimal cross over events. Both Dick and Babs need to stop being forced together and be with new love interests who are actually compatible with them. Cass, Stephanie, Duke, Harper should only really show up in Detective Comics and Birds of Prey when needed. They are side characters with little to no impact overall. 

Nightwing solo should be focused on developing Dick outside bat family. IT should establish his rogues' gallery, permanent side characters and permanent love interest (basically, GIVE MY BOY THE FLASH TREATMENT THANKS). And they should all be non-batfam related (sans the villains because you know). Court of Owls (Talon) and Deathstroke should be Nightwing recurring villains/nemsis and not just general batfamily villains. Dick Grayson shouldnt be happy-go-lucky or sunshine and rainbows. Dick needs to be more nuanced and have really close attachments to people he loves. Nightwing shouldn't be fighting over his status for robin or wanting to be like batman. In fact, Dick should only be batman when the scenario is absolutely necessary to do so. Dick should Nightwing 100% of the time. The heir to the cowl should either be Damian or Tim. Nightwing should be Gotham adjacent and be working towards re-evaluating Batman's teachings.

Babs should shed her Batgirl image and fully become Oracle, acting as the Felcity Smoak to Batman's Ollie. She should be grown, mature and career driven. She needs to be in an adult/mature atmosphere. Hipster Babs doesnt work because it completely ruins her development and also she is basically acting like Stephanie now. Babs and Luke should have had a longer, more established relationship. DickxBabs should move on from one another and become more like sister/brother. Give babs more status as being Batman's right hand girl and his eyes and ears everywhere. 

ALL THE ROBINS NEED TO SHOW SOME SORT OF REACTION TO THEIR TRAUMA! Dick was raped twice, Jason was murdered and revived by some crazy lady who used him, Damian died, and Tim was also beaten and turned in the Joker and killed innocent people. There is no reason why these are not part of character growths. It's incredibly sensitive to have them go through this and never address it again or act like it wasn't a big deal. Dick Grayson especially should be super affected by what happened to him due to the fact that he has always been an emotional guy who just hides it very well until he snaps. The fact that DC likes to traumatize the robins for fun doesnt sit well with me. Either make it a big part of their story/development or dont do it at all.

----------


## lucius121

Catwoman #36 Harley Quinn's portrayal in this book in possibly the worst I have ever seen her written.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim was also beaten and turned in the Joker and killed innocent people.


That never happened in the main continuity.

----------


## TheRay

> His playboy rep made the government not trust him to rebuild Gotham and resulted in it being condemned as No Man's Land


That seems like they did that just to give it a reason for existing. They probably could have come up with any number of reasons to not trust him.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I have to ask. Is anyone else getting tired of how many events Batman has been having ? I mean soon or later this will harm him. It also causes characters like Nightwing to be more in sidekick role when he was mad Be his own character. If anything if they wanted Nightwing to be that might has well destroy Bludhaven


Events are made to feel like they have an impact and they do in the Batfam but when you have so many it feels like they don't get to have has much of an impact. And sometimes they feel like they don't have have has much 

I feel like this is why Nightwing will be in Batfam and not treated has separate they want him in events and I'm Batfam because they know Batman and Batfam fans will buy him. Nightwing sales go down slowly then quick

----------


## MajorHoy

> I have to ask. Is anyone else getting tired of how many events Batman has been having ? I mean soon or later this will harm him.


But they sell (for now), no matter how much people here may complain / whine.
We're just a part of the overall possible readership.




> It also causes characters like Nightwing to be more in sidekick role when he was mad Be his own character. *If anything if they wanted Nightwing to be that might has well destroy Bludhaven*


Been there . . . done that.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Nightwing is a low totem now that he breaks even but here Harley is the fourth pillar. Nightwing should be more pushed. If they can have someone to do with NTT. They can get someone to do it again if they pushed Batfam but Titans has well

They can have their events but a Nightwing book separate for the events makes sense because many people leave. And that doesn't help Nightwing if he is suppose to be independent form Batman he shouldn't always be in all the events or be outshine. Babs feels more like important and what Tom said feels more like Batfam is more the main characters. He will do anything for Babs. He would do anything for many of his friends

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . *They can have their events but a Nightwing book separate for the events makes sense because many people leave. And that doesn't help Nightwing if he is suppose to be independent form Batman he shouldn't always be in all the events or be outshine* . . .


But do more people buy the main *Batman* book as opposed to the people who buy just *Nightwing*?

If there are more people buying *Batman* and/or *Detective Comics* over *Nightwing*, then including the *Nightwing* book in the crossover may *increase* sales / exposure for *Nightwing*.

And shouldn't Dick be included in these events?  He was the reason we have a "Batman Family" in the first place since Dick was his first partner. 
(The only Bat-character still around these days that historically appeared prior to Dick was Jim Gordon.)

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> But do more people buy the main *Batman* book as opposed to the people who buy just *Nightwing*?
> 
> If there are more people buying *Batman* and/or *Detective Comics* over *Nightwing*, then including the *Nightwing* book in the crossover may *increase* sales / exposure for *Nightwing*.
> 
> And shouldn't Dick be included in these events?  He was the reason we have a "Batman Family" in the first place since Dick was his first partner. 
> (The only Bat-character still around these days that historically appeared prior to Dick was Jim Gordon.)


That’s exactly what DC does with Nightwing and why his sales are always consistent. Lol without Batman Nightwing doesn’t have enough going on to stand on his own (no this doesn’t mean Nightwing needs batfam).. The fact that DC hasn’t really invested in building up his own world speaks volumes. Nightwings problem is that his mythos are almost non existent and I don’t think a writer or editor out there is truely willing to sit down and spent 3-4 years solely on building up Nightwing as independent from Batman with his own world. I guess we will see. But until that happens, it’s batfam for Nightwing!

----------


## ermac

Jason Todd and Tim Drake should retire from the spandex. Let them have a life and be happy.

Cassandra should be Batwoman and Stephanie should be Batgirl. Barba could mentor them as Oracle.

----------


## TheRay

The original Red Hood look has its merits. Jason Todd should dip into it now and again.

----------


## MajorHoy

> The original Red Hood look has its merits. Jason Todd should dip into it now and again.


Do you mean "Jason's original Red Hood look" or his predecessor's look?

 

I'm not sure how Jason would do in a tuxedo.

----------


## 9th.

Speaking of Jason's Red Hood suit, I'm not a fan of having the Bat emblem on characters that don't have "bat" in their name. I get why they do it but I've never been a fan of it.

----------


## Bat-Meal

Kate Kane is FUBR after the (still ongoing it seems) CW fiasco.

And I find I no longer care.  

Yeah, I heard she still has appearances in the comics, even very recently.  But she's still FUBR IMO, at least brand-wise.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## exile001

> Kate Kane is FUBR after the (still ongoing it seems) CW fiasco. And I find I no longer care.


I don't attach that to the character, it's not Kate's fault or that of the comic book talent that all this drama is happening. It's a real shame that's the effect this all had on you. I get it, nobody named is coming out of the show looking good, but to me that's completely separate from the comics. 

Maybe that's in part because I grudgingly made it through the episodes of Batwoman it took to get to Crisis then quit all the CW shows I watched, which IMO had been garbage for years.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I don't attach that to the character, it's not Kate's fault or that of the comic book talent that all this drama is happening. It's a real shame that's the effect this all had on you. I get it, nobody named is coming out of the show looking good, but to me that's completely separate from the comics.


This thing about linking the TV show / movie versions of characters too closely to the comic book versions especially irks me because I don't care about the TV shows and movies; I read comic books.  I often hate when they change what the comic book stories are about *JUST* to reflect what they're doing in the TV shows and/or movies.
Like what they've done to comic book version of Nick Fury . . .

----------


## exile001

> This thing about linking the TV show / movie versions of characters too closely to the comic book versions especially irks me because I don't care about the TV shows and movies; I read comic books.  I often hate when they change what the comic book stories are about *JUST* to reflect what they're doing in the TV shows and/or movies.
> Like what they've done to comic book version of Nick Fury . . .


The whole transition to Fury Jr was really poor. I'd probably have been happier if they just transferred Ultimate Fury over (and I am NOT a fan of the Ultimate Universe, save for Miles).

I definitely feel the same about changing comics just to ape movies and TV. Thank the gods the Bat-costume never got nipples!

I was mostly just sad that Bat-Meal can't enjoy a character anymore because of real world shitiness around the adaptation. That really sucks.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Do you mean "Jason's original Red Hood look" or his predecessor's look?
> 
>  
> 
> I'm not sure how Jason would do in a tuxedo.


We are NOT bringing back this look for Jason. He looks awful in it.

----------


## MajorHoy

> We are NOT bringing back this look for Jason. He looks awful in it.


Did Jason ever go with the tux when he was Red Hood?   :Confused:  


Remember, this was waaaaaaaaay back in the day.
The cover-date was February 1951, well before even I was born.

----------


## Bat-Meal

> I don't attach that to the character, it's not Kate's fault or that of the comic book talent that all this drama is happening. It's a real shame that's the effect this all had on you. I get it, nobody named is coming out of the show looking good, but to me that's completely separate from the comics.


But that's the thing, it's not just the show and the horror story BTS there _(no one should be hospitalized, paralyzed, or burnt, and/or psychologically abused to create a tv show)_ 
- a lot of apparent vindictiveness has gone on with the comics over the years as well. 

The creative team for her first solo were so upset they quit because editorial wouldn't let them finish the story the way they wanted to, the replacement writer didn't seem like he really wanted to write the character at all because he had her both repeatedly raped and then victim-blamed for it (and IMHO seemed like he wanted to replace her with her sister), and an interview from a few years ago demonstrates that the original writer (of modern Kane) is peeved off with what subsequent writers have done to "his" Kate.




> *With A Heavy Heart…*
> Wednesday September 04th 2013, 10:11 pm
> 
> Dear Batwoman readers –
> 
> From the moment DC asked us to write Batwoman — a dream project for both of us — we were committed to the unofficial tagline “No Status Quo.” We felt that the series and characters should always be moving forward, to keep changing and evolving. In order to live up to our mantra and ensure that each arc took Batwoman in new directions, we carefully planned plotlines and story beats for at least the first five arcs well before we ever wrote a single issue. We’ve been executing on that plan ever since, making changes whenever we’ve come up with a better idea, but in general remaining consistent to our core vision.
> 
> Unfortunately, in recent months, DC has asked us to alter or completely discard many long-standing storylines in ways that we feel compromise the character and the series. We were told to ditch plans for Killer Croc’s origins; forced to drastically alter the original ending of our current arc, which would have defined Batwoman's heroic future in bold new ways; and, most crushingly, prohibited from ever showing Kate and Maggie actually getting married. All of these editorial decisions came at the last minute, and always after a year or more of planning and plotting on our end.
> 
> ...


http://www.jhwilliams3.com/archives/1826


https://bleedingcool.com/comics/putt...oman-spoilers/


https://www.thefandomentals.com/greg...bout-batwoman/

And I know that disagreements with editorial, and other writers, is nowhere near the level of what has gone on with the TV show - but it all adds up after a while.  

Rucka, Williams & Blackman, Rose, Day - all were said to have been passionate about the character.  Near as I can tell they all get 'burnt'.  Some way more than others of course.  I don't follow Day, she doesn't interest me as an actor, but last time I saw anything about her she seemed bitter, perhaps unprofessionally so.  Rucka, Williams & Blackman, were probably bitter for a time.  And Rose seems...broken I guess, her posts come across as being sent through a haze of rage. 

At least Tynion, Bennett, and Andreyko seem to have escaped their involvement with the character unscathed.

Point is, though it's not her fault, Kate is the common denominator.  So I just can't enjoy her anymore.  Maybe in a few years time, but not for now.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Did Jason ever go with the tux when he was Red Hood?   
> 
> 
> Remember, this was waaaaaaaaay back in the day.
> The cover-date was February 1951, well before even I was born.


No, just the hood and the cape. He wears a suit with a different mask, but that one's just for the cover since it was during the period where he rules Iceberg Lounge. He wore a suit as a civilian boss, and wore his Outlaw costume on the field.

The hood's already ridiculous.

----------


## TheRay

> We are NOT bringing back this look for Jason. He looks awful in it.


Why do you think he looks so bad in it?

----------


## MajorHoy

> Why do you think he looks so bad in it?


By the way, that's *not* Jason on that cover (which came out about 30 years before Jason's first appearance).

----------


## Jackalope89

> Why do you think he looks so bad in it?


I usually don't mind something being over the top, but for a character like Jason, the pill helmet is worse than the face helmet (which is saying something), and awful from a functionality point as well. The cape, well, Jason's criticized capes a few times.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why do you think he looks so bad in it?


It's just ugly

----------


## TheRay

I don't really think a plain, red hood is "over the top". As far as costumes go, that and the red mask are as basic as you can get given the codename.

----------


## lemonpeace

> Speaking of Jason's Red Hood suit, I'm not a fan of having the Bat emblem on characters that don't have "bat" in their name. I get why they do it but I've never been a fan of it.


seconded!!

----------


## JediBatman54

The batman movie will be good but overrated

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The batman movie will be good but overrated


So pretty much like every CBM that turns out good then? :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheRay

Lets touch on the big issue, thats probably been done to deathI agree with Batman, really all heroes, having a no kill rule. Theyre already operating outside the law to begin with, so theres no legal justification for them to kill. Even in just the extreme case of The Joker, anybody could kill him, hes just a guy.

----------


## Cyberstrike

There are way too many members of the Bat family.

----------


## marhawkman

> There are way too many members of the Bat family.


This is controversial?

----------


## Restingvoice

> This is controversial?


It used to be. Not anymore, after the latest batch, since Tynion just dumps many of them in quick succession, plus semi-officially including Harley.

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## TheRay

All Batman comics are fun.

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## Agent Z

Complaining about there being too many members of the Batfamily is about as valid as complaining that there is too much sex and violence on tv.

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## MajorHoy

> Complaining about there being too many members of the Batfamily is about as valid as complaining that there is too much sex and violence on tv.


Depends on what channels you watch.

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## Kid Devil

What Batfmaily members would you all choose to take a hiatus or do something else to lower the number of current active members? I would start by dropping Tim and Stephanie.

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## Lal

> What Batfmaily members would you all choose to take a hiatus or do something else to lower the number of current active members? I would start by dropping Tim and Stephanie.


I think that as long as bat-characters have a big enough fan base to sustain a mini or an ongoing story for them - why not give it to their fans? 
I'm not a big fan of Tim, but it seems he could have a mini with decent sales, and it sounds much more reasonable to give him a mini than try to push characters that weren't well-received. Overall, I believe in a free market here -as long as there are enough readers for a series to be profitable, DC should offer books for these characters (as long as those books aren't degrading other characters to get attention. For example, if Bruce is now telling Huntress that he trusts her and respects her above all and she's better than all his proteges, that's a problem. Characters shouldn't be elevated by comparing them to other characters or degrading them).

The main problem with the batfamily is with characters that can't have a book of their own and aren't fan-favorites, but writers still try to push or give them the very limited spotlight. For example, Bluebird as an adversary for punchline. Why chose Bluebird after she retired when there are so many other active batfamily members? It's clear it only happened because Tynion co-created Bluebird and wanted to give her another push. same with writers that want to create the next batman protege and just add more members to that overcrowded family.

As for the members of the batfamily, it's also hard to add more members and claim they are all equally close to Bruce. The characters that are depicted consistently as closest to Bruce are the four Robins and Babs, then you have Steph, Cass, and Duke (recent issues now try to merge both circles and claim they are all his kids, which is a bit weird), and then there are the more distant members of the batfam like Luke, Azreal, Batwoman, Huntress, Bluebird. 
While the inner circles' members are the fan favorites, they are also the ones that have their own books -  Dick, Jason, the batgirls and Damian all have books. Tim and Duke appear in UL and their stories may continue in different books. 

Personally, I think I'd take Duke and the outsiders outside of Gotham. They are all powered and much more suited to the broader DC adventures. I'd also keep Bluebird retired. I'd put Azreal in a team outside of Gotham. Luke is part of Jace's story (not that I understand why Jace isn't in a different city or alternate timeline when there are so many active crimefighters in Gotham). Batwoman, Huntress, and the batgirls together with Nightwing now seem to be the main characters in "shadows of the bat" event, so I'll give it a chance.

Harley shouldn't be part of the batfamily. Selina should be sometimes an ally.

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## TheRay

If characters move on from Batman, then I'd like to see them be capable of doing almost everything he is.

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## Kid Devil

> I'd put Azreal in a team outside of Gotham.


Yes this. I enjoyed Jean-Paul being a member of the Justice League Odyssey even if it was only like 12 something issues or less. Hope for more of that.

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## marhawkman

> If characters move on from Batman, then I'd like to see them be capable of doing almost everything he is.


that's kinda how it is with Teen Titans/Young Justice and Birds of Prey.

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## The Invincible Beawulf

> the Magistrate Era is the most refreshing and cohesive the Batman/Gotham line has been in years.


I agree with you  :Smile: 

And I like the new characters Tynion has introduced in his Batman run.

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## lemonpeace

> What Batfmaily members would you all choose to take a hiatus or do something else to lower the number of current active members? I would start by dropping Tim and Stephanie.


honestly I'd just dissolve the Batfamily as an institution, relegate Batman to Gotham and set everyone free into the DC universe, if we're looking to reduce numbers. none of the characters are really in a place where it's fair to shelf them. even Tim (tho he'd be the first one I'd pull tbh).

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## Frontier

> honestly I'd just dissolve the Batfamily as an institution, relegate Batman to Gotham and set everyone free into the DC universe, if we're looking to reduce numbers. none of the characters are really in a place where it's fair to shelf them. even Tim (tho he'd be the first one I'd pull tbh).


No Man's Land 2.0.

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## Aahz

> What Batfmaily members would you all choose to take a hiatus or do something else to lower the number of current active members? I would start by dropping Tim and Stephanie.


I think that you could keep all Robins, Batgirls and Catwoman arround.
I think that is still a manageable number, since a good number of them can support their own book, it they just don't need to put all of them in each event.

And put all the non core members on hiatus.

When I would have to put more on hiatus, I think I would drop Tim, Steph and Cass, since it really feels like no one at DC seems to have anything new and interesting ideas for these characters.

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## TheRay

Batman's most meaningful relationship will always be Alfred.

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## thwhtGuardian

> Batman's most meaningful relationship will always be Alfred.


I think that's just an issue of a string of bad writers from Snyder to Tynion who seem to think it's cool and edgy that nobody "gets" Batman and that it's better when Bruce is alone.

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## lemonpeace

> I think that's just an issue of a string of bad writers from Snyder to Tynion who seem to think it's cool and edgy that nobody "gets" Batman and that it's better when Bruce is alone.


this is revisionist history, especially in regards to Snyder.

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## thwhtGuardian

> this is revisionist history, especially in regards to Snyder.


It's not, there hasn't been a really great writer since Morrison left. Snyder had good ideas but not an editor to rein in the excesses, was never good at writing the supporting characters so he would either just ignore them or attempt to kill them off and his endings always fell flat. The less said about King's run the better and Tynion hasn't been much of an improvement.

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## Tzigone

> Batman's most meaningful relationship will always be Alfred.


I just disagree. But then, I don't like the retconning Alfred into the parent role. So while I will say he has the most meaningful relationship most recently, I really don't like it that way, don't want it to stay that way, liked it better before it was that way, and think it being that way ties in with all the emotional unhealthiness of modern Batman that I do not like.  But it makes DC bags of money, so they are going to stick with it until it doesn't.

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## Iclifton

I prefer both Stephanie and Cassandra to Barbara.

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## phantom1592

> I just disagree. But then, I don't like the retconning Alfred into the parent role. So while I will say he has the most meaningful relationship most recently, I really don't like it that way, don't want it to stay that way, liked it better before it was that way, and think it being that way ties in with all the emotional unhealthiness of modern Batman that I do not like.  But it makes DC bags of money, so they are going to stick with it until it doesn't.


Agreed. 

Alfred as a parent NEVER worked.  May have looked good on paper, but in reality... it's trash.  Batman's whole concept is that he was orphan rebelling against the system... doesn't work if he HAD a loving father figure. Batman raising orphan Robins 'To give them something I didn't have, or stop them from becoming me' doesn't work if he had father figure raising him. The idea of him dedicating himself to become a vigilante and the angst and misery that people seem to like Batman having... means that Alfred was a TERRIBLE father figure. Not even to mention that he still cooks for him and cleans up after him in 30's-40's... and calls him 'master'.... 

Most of all... Alfred was a retcon. He didn't exist till after Dick Grayson was around... and wasn't retconned as the father figure till after Crisis... So making him 'the most meaningful' just doesn't work. 

If anything his 'most meaningful' relationship should be either Robin or more likely Commissioner Gordon. He was there from issue 1, and his friendship has basically kept him on 'This side of the line'. It would have been easy for him to go full vigilante murderer... but his connection with the police always kept him 'heroic'.

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## Restingvoice

I don't mind Alfred as a father figure, but for Bruce to be the way he is, Alfred has to be a lousy father, which he should be, since he didn't sign up for this, he's just a butler, _and_ he neglected his actual daughter, (or even if he wasn't... there wasn't much a butler can do, he's not a psychiatrist) but the problem is, they want him to be this good, venerated father and it's just... doesn't work with the rest of the lore.

It works if it's Alfred from Bruce's point of view, who came to appreciate him more as he grows older... but not objectively. He should be awkward with him the first time.

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## TheRay

> But then, I don't like the retconning Alfred into the parent role.


Yeah, I'm going to need you to give some context here. Like what, you're saying he's only good as some emotionally distant butler?

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## MajorHoy

> Yeah, I'm going to need you to give some context here. Like what, you're saying he's only good as some emotionally distant butler?


If Alfred didn't come on to the scene until *after* Bruce became Batman, then he couldn't have acted in the "father role" in terms of raising young Bruce as  a boy.

HOWEVER, he doesn't have to be "some emotionally distant butler" either because shortly after entering the lives of Bruce and Dick, he stumbled upon their secret identities and thus became a helper in their battle against crime.

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## phantom1592

> If Alfred didn't come on to the scene until *after* Bruce became Batman, then he couldn't have acted in the "father role" in terms of raising young Bruce as  a boy.
> 
> HOWEVER, he doesn't have to be "some emotionally distant butler" either because shortly after entering the lives of Bruce and Dick, he stumbled upon their secret identities and thus became a helper in their battle against crime.


My favorite version of Alfred

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## Jackalope89

> My favorite version of Alfred


What's more, that Batman wasn't a vigilante, but actually was deputized.

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## MajorHoy

> What's more, that *Batman wasn't a vigilante, but actually was deputized*.


I think 1950s/1960s Batman in the comic books was more along those lines as well.

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## phantom1592

> I think 1950s/1960s Batman in the comic books was more along those lines as well.


I've long said that Adam West was the most Comic Accurate Batman ever. 

Whether we're talking about colorful goofy campy comic books of the 50's-60's..... Or we're talking about the all powerful Bat-God who can beat anyone, anytime with preperation that defies reality. He was prepared for any situation. Seriously... The guy had Shark Repellant... in an Aerosol can... on a HELICOPTER. 

Superman would be no problem for THAT Batman  :Cool:

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## Jackalope89

> I've long said that Adam West was the most Comic Accurate Batman ever. 
> 
> Whether we're talking about colorful goofy campy comic books of the 50's-60's..... Or we're talking about the all powerful Bat-God who can beat anyone, anytime with preperation that defies reality. He was prepared for any situation. Seriously... The guy had Shark Repellant... in an Aerosol can... on a HELICOPTER. 
> 
> Superman would be no problem for THAT Batman


Except that Batman would be good friends with Superman, and it would make far more sense than the more sociopathic one we get in modern times.

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## marhawkman

> Except that Batman would be good friends with Superman, and it would make far more sense than the more sociopathic one we get in modern times.


Well, yes, there is that old saying about the "best way to defeat an enemy"... yeah the twist is that you convince them to help you.  So... the Adam West Batman defeated Superman before meeting him.  :Big Grin:

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## JediBatman54

The Dark Knight Trilogy is not realistic Joker the movie is more 
my dream movie is a DC Black Label/Vertigo Batman movie

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## Restingvoice

> The Dark Knight Trilogy is not realistic Joker the movie is more 
> my dream movie is a DC Black Label/Vertigo Batman movie


It was said to be realistic because at that time the only point of comparison is Burton and Schumacher's Batman (and _their_ point of comparison was Batman 66)

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## Aahz

Making Duke the by far least experienced member of the Batfamily, the only member that is allowed to fight crime by day, especially during a time when the police is trying to hunt down the Batfamily makes no sense.

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## Tzigone

> Yeah, I'm going to need you to give some context here. Like what, you're saying he's only good as some emotionally distant butler?


He was never "emotionally distant" - he was Bruce and Dick's _friend_.  He was a member of the family, pretty quickly. But he wasn't the parent. Bruce didn't have that emotionally-unhealthy dependence on him.  He didn't have the unhealthy devotion to Bruce. Bruce was emotionally healthy. Bruce took on the role of _raising_ a (to be fair, fairly grown) child, without expectation of Alfred doing the heavy lifting (far less selfish), and did a good job of it and related well to Dick. Alfred had an independent relationship with Dick (whereas now, Alfred's relationships with the "kids" are far to often to subordinate to his relationship with Bruce, and he will even sacrifice their emotional well-being to Bruce's emotional needs, as with the amnesia and how he was with Damian, etc.). And Dick, not Alfred, was the closest person to Bruce back then.   He's lost a lot, and as a fan of old-school Dick Grayson, I don't really care for that. A shifting as he grew and others took precendence in each other's lives would be totally natural (and I'd say was, in the early 1980s, though I found it forced in the early 70s), but he's been retconned to having always been second-tier (along with losing maturity, skills, respect of his peers, etc., but those have nothing do with Alfred).

But my primary issue is how emotionally unhealthy Bruce has become. And time-correlated with Alfred as the parent, even if not caused by that. But when you put in a narrative context, it's a bad look for Alfred. And, even worse, I find their interpersonal dynamic to be unhealthy. With Alfred's life solely devoted to Bruce (made worse by his neglect of his own daughter).  Bad enough in a parent, worse in someone still in a servant/employee role.

I also didn't mind Bruce having relatives (Aunt Agatha, Uncle Silas, cousin Jane) that he got along, loved even.  That losing his parents hurt, of course, but it motivated him, not consumed him. That he grieved, but his life was not forever-dark afterwards.

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## Gaius

Dick Grayson should have died in _Infinite Crisis._

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## Alan2099

> He was never "emotionally distant" - he was Bruce and Dick's _friend_.  He was a member of the family, pretty quickly. But he wasn't the parent. Bruce didn't have that emotionally-unhealthy dependence on him.  He didn't have the unhealthy devotion to Bruce. Bruce was emotionally healthy. Bruce took on the role of _raising_ a (to be fair, fairly grown) child, without expectation of Alfred doing the heavy lifting (far less selfish), and did a good job of it and related well to Dick. Alfred had an independent relationship with Dick (whereas now, Alfred's relationships with the "kids" are far to often to subordinate to his relationship with Bruce, and he will even sacrifice their emotional well-being to Bruce's emotional needs, as with the amnesia and how he was with Damian, etc.). And Dick, not Alfred, was the closest person to Bruce back then.   He's lost a lot, and as a fan of old-school Dick Grayson, I don't really care for that. A shifting as he grew and others took precendence in each other's lives would be totally natural (and I'd say was, in the early 1980s, though I found it forced in the early 70s), but he's been retconned to having always been second-tier (along with losing maturity, skills, respect of his peers, etc., but those have nothing do with Alfred).
> 
> But my primary issue is how emotionally unhealthy Bruce has become. And time-correlated with Alfred as the parent, even if not caused by that. But when you put in a narrative context, it's a bad look for Alfred. And, even worse, I find their interpersonal dynamic to be unhealthy. With Alfred's life solely devoted to Bruce (made worse by his neglect of his own daughter).  Bad enough in a parent, worse in someone still in a servant/employee role.
> 
> I also didn't mind Bruce having relatives (Aunt Agatha, Uncle Silas, cousin Jane) that he got along, loved even.  That losing his parents hurt, of course, but it motivated him, not consumed him. That he grieved, but his life was not forever-dark afterwards.


I too miss when Batman was a functional human being capable of actually showing emotion, or at least emotions other than sadness and anger.  

They keep piling dark on top of dark and removing the lighter elements of Batman and it makes for a weaker less interesting mythos not to mention a totally worse main character.

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## marhawkman

> I too miss when Batman was a functional human being capable of actually showing emotion, or at least emotions other than sadness and anger.  
> 
> They keep piling dark on top of dark and removing the lighter elements of Batman and it makes for a weaker less interesting mythos not to mention a totally worse main character.


Best example was Bat-Blackrock!  Superman actually talks Blackrock into leaving Batman as a host by talking to Blackrock about how deranged Batman is!  :Big Grin:   The hilarious part?  Blackrock was reading Batman's mind the whole time and verifying everything Superman said was true.

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## Pohzee

> Dick Grayson should have died in _Infinite Crisis._


If we were to base it solely on his runs as Nightwing and with the Titans, I'd have a hard time disagreeing with you there. They don't really seem to know where to take the character that isn't Batman-lite, even Robin-lite. But his stints and Batman and Agent of Spyral were fantasic, and demonstrate the potential he has that makes him worth keeping around IMO.

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## The True Detective

> I too miss when Batman was a functional human being capable of actually showing emotion, or at least emotions other than sadness and anger.  
> 
> They keep piling dark on top of dark and removing the lighter elements of Batman and it makes for a weaker less interesting mythos not to mention a totally worse main character.


My controversial opinion is Bruce's darkness and supposed lack of emotion are greatly exaggerated, it's almost like if a character isn't walking around quipping with a Joker-like permagrin on their face 24/7 it's "why don't they lighten up?" 

Not acting like a 90s Jim Carrey comedy character doesn't mean you're a suicidal mope.

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## Astralabius

> My controversial opinion is Bruce's darkness and supposed lack of emotion are greatly exaggerated, it's almost like if a character isn't walking around quipping with a Joker-like permagrin on their face 24/7 it's "why don't they lighten up?" 
> 
> Not acting like a 90s Jim Carrey comedy character doesn't mean you're a suicidal mope.


I can't really fault anyone for thinking Bruce is a suicidal mope nowadays considering that King literally wrote him as a suicidal mope for over three years.

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## marhawkman

> I can't really fault anyone for thinking Bruce is a suicidal mope nowadays considering that King literally wrote him as a suicidal mope for over three years.


And in that Blackrock story I keep bringing up the key reason Blackrock chose to leave Batman as a host... was realizing that Batman actually WAS a suicidal mope.  Granted the context was the idea suicide was better than being Blackrock's puppet, but still.

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## Astralabius

> And in that Blackrock story I keep bringing up the key reason Blackrock chose to leave Batman as a host... was realizing that Batman actually WAS a suicidal mope.  Granted the context was the idea suicide was better than being Blackrock's puppet, but still.


Yep. I don't like Bruce being suicidal, but it is technically canon. Not that canon means much when it comes to comics, there are also a lot of comics that make it clear that Bruce likes being Batman and doesn't want to die. It really depends on the writer.

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## marhawkman

> Yep. I don't like Bruce being suicidal, but it is technically canon. Not that canon means much when it comes to comics, there are also a lot of comics that make it clear that Bruce likes being Batman and doesn't want to die. It really depends on the writer.


Well in the Blackrock case it was more that Bruce was willing to kill himself to break Blackrock's hold on him.  He didn't really WANT to die... but.... was willing to?

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## TheRay

> Bruce was emotionally healthy.


How so? The guy dresses as a bat and never really processes his grief over the loss of his parents properly. Your argument is predicated on an extremely subjective state of being.

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## MajorHoy

> How so? The guy dresses as a bat *and never really processes his grief over the loss of his parents properly*. Your argument is predicated on an extremely subjective state of being.


Aside from the ramblings of Tom King, what are you basing this on?

Years ago, there didn't seem to be a question of Bruce never really having "*processed his grief*".
That felt more like modern bad writing looking for an easy out as to handle a guy as complex as BVruce/Batman.

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## Astralabius

> Aside from the ramblings of Tom King, what are you basing this on?
> 
> Years ago, there didn't seem to be a question of Bruce never really having "*processed his grief*".
> That felt more like modern bad writing looking for an easy out as to handle a guy as complex as BVruce/Batman.


Maybe it's just modern writers, I haven't read much from before the 2000s, but considering that we get flashbacks to Bruce's parents dying every few issues I don't think it's odd that people get the impression that Bruce hasn't processed his grief.
You don't have to like it, but that has been Batman for at least the last 10+ years. It's completely fair for readers to see Bruce that way.

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## The True Detective

> I can't really fault anyone for thinking Bruce is a suicidal mope nowadays considering that King literally wrote him as a suicidal mope for over three years.


But I'm not just talking about comics, Batman in any media who doesn't act like Adam West is too dark and miserable in some people's mind's. The way some people carry on TDK trilogy is as dark as Schindler's List just because Bale's Batman isn't constantly smiling and joking around. DCEU Superman got that treatment too especially in MOS for the same reasons.

Society thinks not overtly happy is the same as miserable and depressed. I've been asked by complete strangers "what's wrong?" and told to "cheer up" for simply having a neutral expression while I wait to check out at a grocery store. Not even looking mad or sad, just a neutral expression. I really think because Batman's more serious than the average MCU hero his darkness has been greatly exaggerated.

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## Astralabius

> But I'm not just talking about comics, Batman in any media who doesn't act like Adam West is too dark and miserable in some people's mind's. The way some people carry on TDK trilogy is as dark as Schindler's List just because Bale's Batman isn't constantly smiling and joking around. DCEU Superman got that treatment too especially in MOS for the same reasons.
> 
> Society thinks not overtly happy is the same as miserable and depressed. I've been asked by complete strangers "what's wrong?" and told to "cheer up" for simply having a neutral expression while I wait to check out at a grocery store. Not even looking mad or sad, just a neutral expression. I really think because Batman's more serious than the average MCU hero his darkness has been greatly exaggerated.


Yeah, people tend to have different tastes and outlooks on life. I really don't know what else to tell you. That's simply something you have to learn to accept.

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## The True Detective

> Yeah, people tend to have different tastes and outlooks on life. I really don't know what else to tell you. That's simply something you have to learn to accept.


Yeah, I already know that and accept it, I'm just venting which is what this whole thread is essentially about. People are allowed to have whatever outlook they want, I'm just saying how I feel about it. You don't have to agree or disagree with me, I'm simply stating that imo Batman isn't as depressed and emotionally stunted as other people say. That's all.

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## TheRay

> I haven't read much from before the 2000s, but considering that we get flashbacks to Bruce's parents dying every few issues I don't think it's odd that people get the impression that Bruce hasn't processed his grief.


If you haven't read much from before the 2000s, then why would you assume it's any different?

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## Tzigone

> How so? The guy dresses as a bat and never really processes his grief over the loss of his parents properly. Your argument is predicated on an extremely subjective state of being.


Within the fiction, dressing as a bat was totally sane and worked well (same for all the others who became costumed heroes of the era).  He was treated - by the writers and other characters - as completely mentally healthy.  There was no indication he hadn't processed his grief in earlier days. He grieved, yes. He still took actions as a result of that horrible event (to fight crime and protect others from the same fate). But he wasn't stuck on it like his is now.  He wasn't still living in the family estate - bought a new house as an adult - and I don't think he had big portraits of them.  He didn't dwell in the past as much. He had healthy relationships in the present.  And Bruce was more Bruce than Brucie in his personal interactions with others.

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## Restingvoice

The big portrait Bruce had in the golden age was of his and Dick. He's very present. He takes breaks and vacations, alone or with Dick and Alfred, goes on dates, hangs out, visits places beyond Bruce Wayne's obligations, eats, and sleeps normally. He does operate during the day, but at night as well.

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## TheRay

> There was no indication he hadn't processed his grief in earlier days. He grieved, yes.


Your whole argument still seems to be entirely how you define the phrases "emotionally healthy" and "processed grief". Not only that, but because everyone processes grief differently and there are instances where it takes time to manifest itself, it's entirely believable that he would undergo a change like that over time. I don't really see him as being stuck in the past or not having healthy relationships. You have whatever he's got going on with Catwoman, which I don't think would be possible if those statements were true.

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## Arsenal

I just wish there were more moments of Bruce genuinely enjoying being Batman. 

Like… not all the time but sprinkled in.

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## Tzigone

> Your whole argument still seems to be entirely how you define the phrases "emotionally healthy" and "processed grief". Not only that, but because everyone processes grief differently and there are instances where it takes time to manifest itself, it's entirely believable that he would undergo a change like that over time. I don't really see him as being stuck in the past or not having healthy relationships. You have whatever he's got going on with Catwoman, which I don't think would be possible if those statements were true.


I just can't agree.  He was estranged from Dick for a while post-COIE, and then took in Jason (to fill the empty role of Robin) because he missed Dick. He unilaterally orders Dick to abandon whatever is going on in his own life to take back Blackgate in NML and then basically hangs up on Dick when Dick objects. He's very dictatorial with the others at times.  He spies on Barbara in early BoP.  He hangs up on her when she asks about how he got healed after broken back. He did a freaking creepy test on Tim for Tim's sixteenth birthday. When Gordon got shot, he reacted so badly (and with so little regard for Barbara's emotional needs) that Alfred called him on that crap.  Then, after Alfred had left and was valeting for Tim - when Bruce didn't know where Tim was, he outed Tim's secret identity to Steph, just because he was too damn chicken to talk to Alfred and get an answer from him.  Oh, and then there's how he treated Steph and Tim after Tim quit being Robin.  And his desire to keep Cass from having a social life/interacting with other teen heroes there for a while.  The early 2000s really were terrible.

He used to be friends with and respect other JL members - since COIE (or probably a little earlier), he's frequently (though not consistently) regarded them with distrust and/or disdain.  His trust levels in all those around him - Batfamily or other - have plummeted. Though I suppose with how often heroes go evil these days...

And the entire King relationship depiction with Selina was very unhealthy. Her as the only light, the only happiness in his life, etc.  I like BatCat - or at least the idea of it - and I hated it. And that was hardly the only emotionally unhealthy aspect to the character that King depicted.

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## Micael

The worst part about emotionally detached batman is that to many people that's all they know the character to be.

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## The True Detective

> Within the fiction, dressing as a bat was totally sane and worked well (same for all the others who became costumed heroes of the era).  He was treated - by the writers and other characters - as completely mentally healthy.  There was no indication he hadn't processed his grief in earlier days. He grieved, yes. He still took actions as a result of that horrible event (to fight crime and protect others from the same fate). But he wasn't stuck on it like his is now.  He wasn't still living in the family estate - bought a new house as an adult - and I don't think he had big portraits of them.  He didn't dwell in the past as much. He had healthy relationships in the present.  And Bruce was more Bruce than Brucie in his personal interactions with others.


When has it ever been shown that dressing up as a bat was sane? It's not like dressing up in a costume was a common thing the average person did. " Hey Bill, I'll meet you at the bar in a half an hour, I gotta go change into my bald eagle costume." It was clearly odd in universe just not made a big deal of. 

Why is it bad to be "stuck on" such a terrible event? It wasn't some small time thing. You make it seem like a classmate didn't invite him to their party when he was 10 and he's held onto the resentment into adulthood. I'm sure anyone who has witnessed violent crime irl, especially as kids, don't move on so easily. Imagine if Caroline Kennedy was in the motorcade when JFK was shot and being told to move past it if she still had lingering anger. It's not that easy. 

Also regarding his not being seen as mentally unhealthy in the past, ya don't say, he also would kill, use a gun and threaten to spank Catwoman like a condescending sexist jackass. Franchises evolve over time. There was a lot less thought put into his characterization back then in general. Was Green Arrow an arrogant loudmouth liberal in his early days? Nope but that shouldn't mean his current incarnation is any less valid just because he wasn't like this in the beginning.

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## JediBatman54

I want Batman to be terrifying like his villains

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## phonogram12

I'm not gonna lie - I'm probably very influenced by when I started reading comics. While I generally do like my Batman to be at least somewhat of a jerk (the Timmverse version, Greg Rucka's version, and Morrison's JLA version (who even had a bit of a sense of humor)), writers who I think really got a handle on a warmer Batman include: Mike W. Barr, Alan Grant, Steve Englehart, the animated The Batman version, the animated Batman the Brave & the Bold version, and hell, even the Batman '66 version.

I honestly can't think of many examples of Batman being super warm to the JL that I like, but I can point out where I think certain writers have taken it too far. As much as I loved Dave Gibbons and Steve Rude's World's Finest mini from some decades back, even I thought he was a bit harsh towards Clark. And as much as I enjoyed and understood that they were ideologically at odds, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said about Miller's version of the World's Finest. From what I've read of Geoff Johns' version of his relationship with the JL...no thanks. Brian Meltzer - I think that one's obvious.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family.  In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods.  There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern.  When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis.  Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy.  He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can.  If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.

----------


## phonogram12

> There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family.  In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods.  There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern.  When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis.  Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy.  He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can.  If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.


This is an incredibly good point. Like when comedians poke fun at the less privileged rather than the one's who have all the privilege in the world. In a perfect world, it would be more similar to this meme I've seen about the MCU's Black Panther. Nearly everywhere else around the world, T'Challa is revered and is shown the utmost respect. But when he's around his family or friends within Wakanda that know him best, he gets poked fun of mercilessly.

----------


## TheRay

> He used to be friends with and respect other JL members - since COIE (or probably a little earlier), he's frequently (though not consistently) regarded them with distrust and/or disdain.  His trust levels in all those around him


When in the world has he ever had anything more than 0 trust in others?

----------


## MajorHoy

> When in the world has he ever had anything more than 0 trust in others?


You never read all those past Batman and Superman team-ups prior to *CoIE* I take it . . .

----------


## JediBatman54

Killing Joke is the canon ending of the Batman franchise

----------


## TheRay

Tomasi is one of my favorite writers

----------


## Agent Z

> There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family.  In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods.  There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern.  When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis.  Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy.  He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can.  If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.


Bruce acting like a jerk to the League becomes less and less cathartic when the League rarely ever does anything to deserve it and Bruce is just as godlike in how DC reveres him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family.  In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods.  There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern.


That would apply _if_ the powered ones are jerks and bullies, if they're Super Friends then Nah. 

Unless you're talking about inner fandom war where the fans of the powered ones are being annoying.




> Bruce acting like a jerk to the League becomes less and less cathartic when the League rarely ever does anything to deserve it


yeah like so

----------


## The World

> I'm not gonna lie - I'm probably very influenced by when I started reading comics. While I generally do like my Batman to be at least somewhat of a jerk (the Timmverse version, Greg Rucka's version, and Morrison's JLA version (who even had a bit of a sense of humor)), writers who I think really got a handle on a warmer Batman include: Mike W. Barr, Alan Grant, Steve Englehart, the animated The Batman version, the animated Batman the Brave & the Bold version, and hell, even the Batman '66 version.
> 
> I honestly can't think of many examples of Batman being super warm to the JL that I like, but I can point out where I think certain writers have taken it too far. As much as I loved Dave Gibbons and Steve Rude's World's Finest mini from some decades back, even I thought he was a bit harsh towards Clark. And as much as I enjoyed and understood that they were ideologically at odds, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said about Miller's version of the World's Finest. From what I've read of Geoff Johns' version of his relationship with the JL...no thanks. Brian Meltzer - I think that one's obvious.





> There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family.  In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods.  There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern.  When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis.  Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy.  He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can.  If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.





> This is an incredibly good point. Like when comedians poke fun at the less privileged rather than the one's who have all the privilege in the world. In a perfect world, it would be more similar to this meme I've seen about the MCU's Black Panther. Nearly everywhere else around the world, T'Challa is revered and is shown the utmost respect. But when he's around his family or friends within Wakanda that know him best, he gets poked fun of mercilessly.


Jesus Christ. The Boys really wasn't _that_ much of an exaggeration of modern superheroes. A bunch of rich, superpowered, or rich and superpowered ego maniacal, sociopaths more concerned with their pride or stardom than helping anyone. Modern Bruce is probably one sexual harrasment suit away from being every slimy CEO on tv, he's not the little guy and he never has been, just a convenient idol for readers to project their insecurities onto.

The sooner Superman give Bruce the Omni-Man treatment the sooner everyone can get over themselves about the power gap between them.

----------


## Agent Z

> Jesus Christ. The Boys really wasn't _that_ much of an exaggeration of modern superheroes. A bunch of rich, superpowered, or rich and superpowered ego maniacal, sociopaths more concerned with their pride or stardom than helping anyone. Modern Bruce is probably one sexual harrasment suit away from being every slimy CEO on tv, he's not the little guy and he never has been, just a convenient idol for readers to project their insecurities onto.
> 
> The sooner Superman give Bruce the Omni-Man treatment the sooner everyone can get over themselves about the power gap between them.


So which one is it? Are modern superheroes too arrogant and obsessed with stardom or a bunch of wimps who let others walk over them?

----------


## The World

> So which one is it? Are modern superheroes too arrogant and obsessed with stardom or a bunch of wimps who let others walk over them?


That's the problem, you have to be one or the other it seems. Bruce and most modern Superheroes are clearly the former and a small minority comprised of individuals like modern Superman sit in the later. That's why modern writers make coping stories like What's so Funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way.


The heroes of old while they could be mean at least seem to care about people and had a good head on their shoulders. They were also more fun. B

----------


## Agent Z

> That's the problem, you have to be one or the other it seems. Bruce and most modern Superheroes are clearly the former and a small minority comprised of individuals like modern Superman sit in the later. That's why modern writers make coping stories like What's so Funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way.
> 
> 
> The heroes of old while they could be mean at least seem to care about people and had a good head on their shoulders. They were also more fun. B


I find your description of most superheroes today hyperbolic at best. And no, the heroes of old weren't any more concerned about people nor did they have their heads anymore screwed on straight than their modern counterparts. In the case of the latter, the primary defense today is that writers are more likely to acknowledge when a hero is anything but. 

And while I dislike nonsense like What's So Funny..., that story's issue isn't Superman being concerned with his image. If anything he has the opposite problem of not even considering other people's opinion of him and the story demonizes his primary critics.

----------


## marhawkman

> Jesus Christ. The Boys really wasn't _that_ much of an exaggeration of modern superheroes. A bunch of rich, superpowered, or rich and superpowered ego maniacal, sociopaths more concerned with their pride or stardom than helping anyone. Modern Bruce is probably one sexual harrasment suit away from being every slimy CEO on tv, he's not the little guy and he never has been, just a convenient idol for readers to project their insecurities onto.
> 
> The sooner Superman give Bruce the Omni-Man treatment the sooner everyone can get over themselves about the power gap between them.


A lot of the Batman/Superman dynamic is an obsession in the "mortal vs god" dynamic... and completely misses the entire point behind being a hero.  Unfortunately that taints the entire DC Universe because of the Bat-god nonsense  putting Batman in almost everything..

----------


## TheRay

I like the idea of keeping Red Hood's death as sort of a major part of his character. I'm not exactly sure on how I want that to happen, but I do want it to keep coming up somehow semi-regularly.

----------


## Gaius

The best Alfred is the _Batman: Earth One_ version.

----------


## dietrich

> I like the idea of keeping Red Hood's death as sort of a major part of his character. I'm not exactly sure on how I want that to happen, but I do want it to keep coming up somehow semi-regularly.


Have him use a crow bar as his weapon of choice.

Have him take Dick's advice and dress as a crowbar.

Have him remind everyone that was killed frequently.

Give him a Zombie themed series.

change his alias to The Crowbar and have a narration box that reminds readers that he choose the the name because he was killed by the Joker with a Crowbar [this also works with his current alias]  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Micael

Dick Grayson sees Bruce Wayne more as an older brother than a father. Even though they have a complex relationship that has bits of father/son dynamic he should never call him dad. With the other robins it's different.

----------


## TheRay

There's no reason Barbara can't suit up and us the name Oracle if she's not paralyzed.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I like the idea of keeping Red Hood's death as sort of a major part of his character. I'm not exactly sure on how I want that to happen, but I do want it to keep coming up somehow semi-regularly.


There was a time Jason's death really meant something, unfortunately seeing as everyone and their mother has died and come back in recent years, it has really undercut the importance and tragedy of Jason's murder. It also makes him look like a whingy baby when he keeps harping on about it, imo at least, which is actually absurd when you think about .

----------


## Jackalope89

> There was a time Jason's death really meant something, unfortunately seeing as everyone and their mother has died and come back in recent years, it has really undercut the importance and tragedy of Jason's murder. It also makes him look like a whingy baby when he keeps harping on about it, imo at least, which is actually absurd when you think about .


To be fair, most others didn't have to dig out of their grave, get hit by a car, be a Jon Doe for a time, wander the streets as a walking vegetable, and then get tossed into the Lazarus Pit when they came back. 

And yes, that is back in continuity for Jason. So his actual resurrection is still a mystery (my personal head canon is that Death of the Endless brought him back to life, after having a cup of tea with him).

----------


## dietrich

> To be fair, most others didn't have to dig out of their grave, get hit by a car, be a Jon Doe for a time, wander the streets as a walking vegetable, and then get tossed into the Lazarus Pit when they came back. 
> 
> And yes, that is back in continuity for Jason. So his actual resurrection is still a mystery (my personal head canon is that Death of the Endless brought him back to life, after having a cup of tea with him).


The thing is @LadyNightwing does have a point.

Jason's ordeal does lose a lot of it's impact when you in the same family a kid who was killed and sent to hell to suffer till he was resurrected [batman and Robin by Tomasi]

Writers keep upping the stakes and shock element to the point where they undercut previous lore.

I'm not a fan of Jason referencing his death frequently/writers keeping him from moving away from it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> The thing is @LadyNightwing does have a point.
> 
> Jason's ordeal does lose a lot of it's impact when you in the same family a kid who was killed and sent to hell to suffer till he was resurrected [batman and Robin by Tomasi]
> 
> Writers keep upping the stakes and shock element to the point where they undercut previous lore.
> 
> I'm not a fan of Jason referencing his death frequently/writers keeping him from moving away from it.


Damian being able to remember his time and experiences in hell is pretty f&*ked up.

----------


## phantom1592

> There was a time Jason's death really meant something, unfortunately seeing as everyone and their mother has died and come back in recent years, it has really undercut the importance and tragedy of Jason's murder. It also makes him look like a whingy baby when he keeps harping on about it, imo at least, which is actually absurd when you think about .


Agreed. 

I really enjoyed Jason as the Cautionary tale of what could happen to a crime fighting kid. Or anyone for that matter. That specter of mortality had a purpose. Even if he was the ONLY character to actually stay dead, I wish he would have. 

OR become the villain. I prefer him dead, but the original story where he came back and used Batman's training against him. Becoming the killer taking over the mob. Unable to arrested because he's too closely connected to the Bruce Wayne identity...  It wasn't as good as him being dead, but it had serious potential. He could have become the #1 archenemy. Would have been extra awesome if he'd Killed Joker on principle and took his place as best enemy. Certainly had more motive than Bane ever did.... 

But making him 'good-ish' and bringing him back into the family as Robin #2 of 4 is just a waste.

----------


## Agent Z

Jason was subjected to victim blaming.

----------


## TheRay

> There was a time Jason's death really meant something


I would argue that it still means something because it’s a factor in him becoming Red Hood.

----------


## Catlady in training

> Damian being able to remember his time and experiences in hell is pretty f&*ked up.


The idea that he would go to hell is stupid and laughable, whether or not one even believes in that type of afterlife. Better to ignore it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah wtf kinda standard did they use sending to hell a ten year old indoctrinated abused victim former murderer who repent and died sacrificing himself to save the girl and save the world

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Jason was subjected to victim blaming.


Jason also victim blames others so it balances out  :Smile:  Being serious though, blaming a teenager for his death is messed up, especially as he was trying to save his mother, every member of the Batfamily would have tried to do the same thing in his place. Not a huge fan of blaming  Bruce either though.



> I would argue that it still means something because its a factor in him becoming Red Hood.


That's really only important to Jason really. Whereas, before death became a minor inconvenience in the DC universe, Jason's death was one of the most significant Deaths in comics

----------


## Aahz

> Jason also victim blames others so it balances out  Being serious though, blaming a teenager for his death is messed up, especially as he was trying to save his mother, every member of the Batfamily would have tried to do the same thing in his place. Not a huge fan of blaming  Bruce either though.


Thing is if you read comics set in Dicks or Tims early years, you see them do a lot of pretty reckless stuff, and Dick disobeys Batman or does something really reckless in at least half retroactive Robin stories with him that were published in the last 2 or 3 decades.

So the whole thing with Jason being the reckless one is kind of nonsense.

----------


## dietrich

> Thing is if you read comics set in Dicks or Tims early years, you see them do a lot of pretty reckless stuff, and Dick disobeys Batman or does something really reckless in at least half retroactive Robin stories with him that were published in the last 2 or 3 decades.
> 
> So the whole thing with Jason being the reckless one is kind of nonsense.


 :Confused:  No one said anything about Jason being the reckless one in this conservation though.

The exact opposite.

The point was made all of the Batfamily would have done the same thing.

Jason isn't the reckless Robin. There's enough evidence to show that they ALL have disobeyed batman at some point.

They have all can be reckless.
Hell Jason isn't the only Robin whose "recklessness and disobeying batman's orders" resulted in his death.

----------


## TheRay

> That's really only important to Jason really.


Yeah…it doesn’t need to be more than that

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah wtf kinda standard did they use sending to hell a ten year old indoctrinated abused victim former murderer who repent and died sacrificing himself to save the girl and save the world


That was stupid and baffling on a spectacular level.

Expected better of Tomasi. Damian doesn't need additional angst to get us to feel for him. The kid's back story and Death was already more than enough angst fodder.

----------


## lemonpeace

might have said this before but I'm not sure: Gotham should be a state. 

Batman keeps the capital (Gotham City), make Bludhaven a city in the state for Nightwing, and give everyone else their own cities in the state as well; then, instead of trying to sell everyone as a "Bat" character, start approaching and brand them as Gotham characters. this give everyone their own space to do their own things, alleviates the clutteredness of everyone being "batfamily" or "bat-adajecent", while keeping them all under a recognizable brand umbrella that people insists is the reason everyone needs to be "batfamily" or "bat-adajecent".

----------


## Restingvoice

> might have said this before but I'm not sure: Gotham should be a state. 
> 
> Batman keeps the capital (Gotham City), make Bludhaven a city in the state for Nightwing, and give everyone else their own cities in the state as well; then, instead of trying to sell everyone as a "Bat" character, start approaching and brand them as Gotham characters. this give everyone their own space to do their own things, alleviates the clutteredness of everyone being "batfamily" or "bat-adajecent", while keeping them all under a recognizable brand umbrella that people insists is the reason everyone needs to be "batfamily" or "bat-adajecent".


Gotham is a County (though they also use the name Kane County I don't know which one they're using currently), and Bludhaven's is its own town, but yes on Burnside to be its own town (aesthetically it's already different enough)

Yes. Spread them out. I said multiple times before, based on the current canon, would someone please move half the family to Burnside and Bludhaven, if they're not making them international crimefighter.

----------


## Frontier

> Gotham is a County (though they also use the name Kane County I don't know which one they're using currently), and Bludhaven's is its own town, but yes on Burnside to be its own town (aesthetically it's already different enough)
> 
> Yes. Spread them out. I said multiple times before, based on the current canon, would someone please move half the family to Burnside and Bludhaven, if they're not making them international crimefighter.


Steph and Cass may as well be fighting crime in Burnside at this point  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Zaresh

> might have said this before but I'm not sure: Gotham should be a state. 
> 
> Batman keeps the capital (Gotham City), make Bludhaven a city in the state for Nightwing, and give everyone else their own cities in the state as well; then, instead of trying to sell everyone as a "Bat" character, start approaching and brand them as Gotham characters. this give everyone their own space to do their own things, alleviates the clutteredness of everyone being "batfamily" or "bat-adajecent", while keeping them all under a recognizable brand umbrella that people insists is the reason everyone needs to be "batfamily" or "bat-adajecent".


+1 to this.
I mean, it almost is one already. DC should take that last step and made Gotham an actual state. Heck, make Gotham an actual country. It still works fine.

----------


## TheRay

Oracle can still suit up whether she's paralyzed or not.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Gotham is a County (though they also use the name Kane County I don't know which one they're using currently), and Bludhaven's is its own town, but yes on Burnside to be its own town (aesthetically it's already different enough)
> 
> Yes. Spread them out. I said multiple times before, based on the current canon, would someone please move half the family to Burnside and Bludhaven, if they're not making them international crimefighter.


Gotham City is like New York City.

When people think of "New York City", chances are they think Manhattan (with Times Square, Grand Central Terminal, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the United Nations, etc.), but Manhattan is only one of five boroughs that make up the city proper.  The other four are Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens, and Staten Island.

----------


## Cyberstrike

DC needs to do a "evil Batman" story like they also do to Superman (_Injustice_, the DCEU, various TV episodes of various Superman/JL TV shows, stupid Elseworlds stories, etc) because that is what the kind of Batman story that would interest me. It's a story where Batman breaks his code and then Superman and the rest of the Justice League, and Batman's family would have to take him down. At least it would put that "Batman can beat anybody" nonsensical idea to the ultimate test and see if Batman can beat every hero and villain in the DCU.  

If Lois get murdered is enough to make Superman into a monster than it's only fair to see something like that happen to Batman in fact it's long overdue. No redemption, no last minute save, it's a story where Batman is a cold blooded killer and must be stopped.

----------


## The True Detective

> DC needs to do a "evil Batman" story like they also do to Superman (_Injustice_, the DCEU, various TV episodes of various Superman/JL TV shows, stupid Elseworlds stories, etc) because that is what the kind of Batman story that would interest me. It's a story where Batman breaks his code and then Superman and the rest of the Justice League, and Batman's family would have to take him down. At least it would put that "Batman can beat anybody" nonsensical idea to the ultimate test and see if Batman can beat every hero and villain in the DCU.  
> 
> If Lois get murdered is enough to make Superman into a monster than it's only fair to see something like that happen to Batman in fact it's long overdue. No redemption, no last minute save, it's a story where Batman is a cold blooded killer and must be stopped.


I feel like an evil Batman would basically be The Batman Who Laughs, it'd suck for anyone who's sick of Batgod because evil Batman would be Batgod on steroids. He'd be made even more capable to explain how a bunch of superheroes and villains can't quickly take him down. The reason Superman is always thecone who is turned evil is partly because of how strong he is. The audience sees him as a JL level threat by himself so there's built in intrigue in the strongest hero taking on the rest by themself. 

Obviously not having powers takes that away from Batman, if he was evil everyone's first thought would be Superman or any mid tier and up hero could just swoop into Gotham and put a stop to his antics pretty easily. Plus, Superman is the hero to end all heroes the boy scout, there's less expectation of him going evil than anyone else, especially the dark jerkass running around beating the crap out of criminals and scaring everyone. Most people can see Batman crossing over to an anti-hero or villain, they can't with Superman since he has a goody two shoes rep.

They definitely go overboard with the evil Superman stories but I can see the reasoning behind it. If Disney had to do Elsewhere stories where one of their characters go bad they'd go with Mickey over a more obvious choice like Donald. Superman subverts the expectations fans might have.

----------


## Gaius

An "evil Batman" story could work but similar to what True Detective said, you can't just apply the "Evil Superman" formula and apply it to Batman. I think it'd have to be something far more small scale and it'd be something like taking the idea that stuff like _White Knight_ dances with even further in that Batman, in-universe, does choose intentionally choose to go after the poor/mentally ill or Kingdom Come where he turns Gotham into his own little authoritarian state.

----------


## dietrich

> DC needs to do a "evil Batman" story like they also do to Superman (_Injustice_, the DCEU, various TV episodes of various Superman/JL TV shows, stupid Elseworlds stories, etc) because that is what the kind of Batman story that would interest me. It's a story where Batman breaks his code and then Superman and the rest of the Justice League, and Batman's family would have to take him down. At least it would put that "Batman can beat anybody" nonsensical idea to the ultimate test and see if Batman can beat every hero and villain in the DCU.  
> 
> If Lois get murdered is enough to make Superman into a monster than it's only fair to see something like that happen to Batman in fact it's long overdue. No redemption, no last minute save, it's a story where Batman is a cold blooded killer and must be stopped.


We've had lots of stories with batman losing or doing bad things and having to be taken down.

Since Rebirth Batman has been losing and messing up. he has needed help from everyone from catwoman to Joker to Robin to Harley.

There's a story where Catwoman teaches batman how to properly throw his Batarangs.

I get that some enjoy seeing batman humbled or taken down a peg but enough. The character has been dragged enough. I'm sick of incompetent dumb weak Batman that we've seen in the last two batman runs [King and Tynion].

Lois dies and Superman turns into a monster
*Selina dumps Batman and he turns into a monster.*

That happened less than 4 years ago! Are people just forgetful?

Batman hasn't been given the chance to shine in his own title for at least 6 yeas now.
That is a sad state of affairs.

Batman beats his kids, abuses them mentally, got his father figure killed and then let his youngest kid take the fall.

Batman's already Badman.

----------


## Robanker

Yeah, modern Bruce is such a clown I don't need to see him made worse. He needs to be built back up as an actual hero.

----------


## TheRay

Bette Kane needs to be used more.

----------


## The True Detective

> We've had lots of stories with batman losing or doing bad things and having to be taken down.
> 
> Since Rebirth Batman has been losing and messing up. he has needed help from everyone from catwoman to Joker to Robin to Harley.
> 
> There's a story where Catwoman teaches batman how to properly throw his Batarangs.
> 
> I get that some enjoy seeing batman humbled or taken down a peg but enough. The character has been dragged enough. I'm sick of incompetent dumb weak Batman that we've seen in the last two batman runs [King and Tynion].
> 
> Lois dies and Superman turns into a monster
> ...


Ain't that the truth, but as I always say everyone ignores the numerous times Bruce is made to look bad because it doesn't fit the Batgod is evil narrative. 

Bruce as an out and out villain like Injustice Superman wouldn't go the way some would hope it would. If DC is so biased towards Bruce and hates making him look bad according to some people him as a villain would be their worst nightmare. Take "ha you fool, it was actually a Doombot!" "Thanos was right" Joker at his most untouchable and you'll get villain Batman.

He'd be the ultimate cool villain who has backup plans upon backup plans, he'll be made to upstage everyone else with "cool" one liners and decimate the "lame" heroes who try to stop him. There's a large segment of fans who think villains are cooler than heroes so DC would make Bruce as uber cool and superior as possible to appeal to those fans. He's not going to be some sad sack despot the heroes berate before finishing off.

DC's supposed bias towards him would surely insure he looks good even as the villain.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I think Robert McCamon's short story "On a beautiful summer's day, he was" is a better snap shot of what the Joker's life was like pre-chemical bath than the _Joker_ movie. 




> Yeah, modern Bruce is such a clown I don't need to see him made worse. He needs to be built back up as an actual hero.


Yeah, they really need to just stop writing stuff that makes him look bad/morally weak in general. And the continued beating up of him over it from other writers doesn't help the fictional character.

Just write him as the hero he is. It can't be that hard.




> Lois dies and Superman turns into a monster
> *Selina dumps Batman and he turns into a monster.*


The difference between these two is that the Superman stuff happens on a much bigger platform with stuff like Injustice or the original plans for the DCEU, whereas only a niche audience would read the Batman comics to see him act like a child when Selina dumps him.

That said, the solution definitely would NOT be to do it more with Batman to even it out or whatever. DC should take better care of all their heroes in general

----------


## marhawkman

> Yeah, modern Bruce is such a clown I don't need to see him made worse. He needs to be built back up as an actual hero.


Yeah reminds me of a comment about Pet Cemetary of all things.

The undead cat in Pet Cemetary... well it basically just acts like a normal cat.  Why? because cats are naturally inclined towards evil already.

So in the case of Batman.... evil Batman is like normal Batman... but ......  Wait... HOW is he different?  In Crisis on Two Earths, Owlman's main difference was that he wanted to use a fancy bomb to blow up the multiverse.  He was the same condescending/scheming jerk as Batman.

----------


## TheRay

Batman has something for everyone to enjoy.

----------


## JediBatman54

In Killing Joke Joker fall into normal water and not chemical acids what makes him Joker was the One Bad Day that he had and not the acids that was the original intention that Moore wanted
I dont understand why Joker should be a mysterious character in many stories they take Killing Joke as Canon and  that he was once a man named Jack Napier and recently Arthur Fleck Joker can have a backstory like Batman too

----------


## The True Detective

> Yeah reminds me of a comment about Pet Cemetary of all things.
> 
> The undead cat in Pet Cemetary... well it basically just acts like a normal cat.  Why? because cats are naturally inclined towards evil already.
> 
> So in the case of Batman.... evil Batman is like normal Batman... but ......  Wait... HOW is he different?  In Crisis on Two Earths, Owlman's main difference was that he wanted to use a fancy bomb to blow up the multiverse.  He was the same condescending/scheming jerk as Batman.


You know, for someone who doesn't seem to like Batman at all you sure do talk about him a lot.

----------


## Alan2099

> In Killing Joke Joker fall into normal water and not chemical acids what makes him Joker was the One Bad Day that he had and not the acids that was the original intention that Moore wanted
> I dont understand why Joker should be a mysterious character in many stories they take Killing Joke as Canon and  that he was once a man named Jack Napier and recently Arthur Fleck Joker can have a backstory like Batman too


Trying to take away Joker's origin has hurt the character alot more than it's helped.  

I also feel that Killing Joke and any other story where Joker tries to prove his point that anyone could be like him goes against his strenghts and theme as a character.  

If there's any Batman villain that should be going around trying to prove that one bad day is all it takes to ruin a person, it should be Two-Face.

----------


## TheRay

Theres room in the fandom for conflicting ideas.

----------


## Robanker

> Yeah reminds me of a comment about Pet Cemetary of all things.
> 
> The undead cat in Pet Cemetary... well it basically just acts like a normal cat.  Why? because cats are naturally inclined towards evil already.
> 
> So in the case of Batman.... evil Batman is like normal Batman... but ......  Wait... HOW is he different?  In Crisis on Two Earths, Owlman's main difference was that he wanted to use a fancy bomb to blow up the multiverse.  He was the same condescending/scheming jerk as Batman.


Give it another 40 years and they'll figure it out.

----------


## marhawkman

> You know, for someone who doesn't seem to like Batman at all you sure do talk about him a lot.


Familiarity breeds contempt as the old saying goes.  :Stick Out Tongue:   It's not even that I hate the IDEA of Batman.  But recent takes make him.... an insane self parody.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Give it another 40 years and they'll figure it out.


They figured one part of it. Turning his distant albeit genuine familial love to a possessive familial obsession... but I only read that one version

----------


## TheRay

I basically prefer Catwoman as just flat out against Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

I used to think that until I notice the cop vs robber, order vs chaos, animal motif, secret identity and with Batman Returns, the whole split in the middle by trauma thing
Not the most healthy couple, but it's one of my favorite pairings because of the contrast

----------


## marhawkman

> I used to think that until I notice the cop vs robber, order vs chaos, animal motif, secret identity and with Batman Returns, the whole split in the middle by trauma thing
> Not the most healthy couple, but it's one of my favorite pairings because of the contrast


Yeah, Catwoman is like that girl who's pretty... but... you'd be stupid to leave your wallet in the same room with her.

----------


## TheRay

Basically I disagree with spending so much time with this Bat/Cat stuff, trying to make it work, when his relationship with Red Hood deserves way more focus and time to flesh it out.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Basically I disagree with spending so much time with this Bat/Cat stuff, trying to make it work, when his relationship with Red Hood deserves way more focus and time to flesh it out.


Problem with that "relationship" is Jason does things that Bruce is against (like using guns / killing people), so where does *that* one go?

----------


## marhawkman

> Problem with that "relationship" is Jason does things that Bruce is against (like using guns / killing people), so where does *that* one go?


Same way as Azrael?  Bruce eventually was like "just try not to do it more than needed" and got over it.  Red Hood doesn't just whack people because he doesn't like them.  It's people who'd be candidates for getting shot by police IRL.... but not in comics because the police in comics are clowns who can't hand out a parking ticket apparently.

----------


## TheRay

Bruce and Damian are the Dynamic Duo. But...does that have any sort of play on the streets of Gotham? What does that distinction even do for them?

----------


## Fergus

> Bruce and Damian are the Dynamic Duo. But...does that have any sort of play on the streets of Gotham? What does that distinction even do for them?


I don't believe they are the dynamic duo. Aside from the brief period under Morrison the dynamic Duo hasn't been play since Jason and bruce before Robin got his own title and went solo.

I think most of the users of this site are new to comics post 90's] otherwise comments like these wouldn't be a thing.

According to I am batman most citizens don't even believe that there's such a person as batman.

As for Robin there's more than one Robin.

You could argue that the current Dynamic duo is Dick and bruce.

They are in a title together as batman and robin. Two titles actually.

Damian and Tim are both Robin but neither shares a book with Bruce or works with him unlike Dick

the latest issue of batman featured a Robin that isn't an actually Robin.

I have no idea what Dc is doing aside from going out of their why to undermine the current Robin.

----------


## TheRay

Not really.
The point is the "dynamic duo" has always just been a nickname and never really carried any weight.

----------


## Iclifton

> I don't believe they are the dynamic duo. Aside from the brief period under Morrison the dynamic Duo hasn't been play since Jason and bruce before Robin got his own title and went solo.
> 
> I think most of the users of this site are new to comics post 90's] otherwise comments like these wouldn't be a thing.
> 
> According to I am batman most citizens don't even believe that there's such a person as batman.
> 
> As for Robin there's more than one Robin.
> 
> You could argue that the current Dynamic duo is Dick and bruce.
> ...


I mean he does have a solo book with a good writer. I don`t think a mini with the original Robin and back up undermine Damien whatsoever. I bet Tim fans would love to reverse roles.

----------


## Fergus

> I mean he does have a solo book with a good writer. I don`t think a mini with the original Robin and back up undermine Damien whatsoever. I bet Tim fans would love to reverse roles.


I think that having multiple books on the shelves called Robin undermine the Robin solo.
I think having multiple Robins undermines the character that's supposed to be the official Robin.
I think having a reveal about Robin being LGBTQ when the actual Robin isn't LGBTQ undermines the current Robin.

I'm sure Tim fans would love a lot of things just like Dick Grayson fans wouldn't like to be in Tim's position but that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. What's good enough for tim fans doesn't mean it's good for Damian fans not even sure why you are bringing it up except in a put up with the BS sort of way because it could be worse in which case I'd say the same for any fan.

also I like how you ignored all the other ways Dc  is undermining Robin to make it a Dick Grayson problem.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I think that having multiple books on the shelves called Robin undermine the Robin solo.
> I think having multiple Robins undermines the character that's supposed to be the official Robin.
> I think having a reveal about Robin being LGBTQ when the actual Robin isn't LGBTQ undermines the current Robin.
> 
> I'm sure Tim fans would love a lot of things just like Dick Grayson fans wouldn't like to be in Tim's position but that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. What's good enough for tim fans doesn't mean it's good for Damian fans not even sure why you are bringing it up except in a put up with the BS sort of way because it could be worse in which case I'd say the same for any fan.
> 
> also I like how you ignored all the other ways Dc  is undermining Robin to make it a Dick Grayson problem.


Ill give Tim fans some crumbs. Dixon definitely did this when he was writing Tim Drake. Dixon really took a lot of what Dick great and gave those traits to his other two favorite characters which were Tim and Babs. And since Dixon was the definitive writer for those characters for a time, it really helped to cement the idea that Tim was a better version than Dick despite not having the same feats or history to back it up. Somehow during the Zero Hour era, Tim became the second greatest detective, one of the greatest fighters, genius intellect. Tim and Babs did ALOT of work for Nightwing in his solo its crazy how much Dixon allowed those character to carry him when Dick clearly demonstrated he can do it himself. I've seen many writers and fans call him the best robin. He was Robin in a ton of media content and many people outside comics still know Tim Drake as THE Robin thanks to shows like BTAS and games like Arkham Knights. So that definitely helps him keep up.

I love Tim, and I do wish he would do more as a character, but I will be honest and say a lot of the characterization he has belonged to Dick Grayson first. In my mind, Dick didnt create Robin as a mantle, it was something that helped him remember his parents and to remember why he was working with Batman in the first place. Dick was mad when Batman gave the name away because it wasn't a mantle, it wasn't his to give away. Overtime, the significance of the mantle definitely diminished in favor of it being something that Batman had control over or was instrumental in making. It's really sad to see that Dick cant really keep anything that he created or was known for. Which is why kind of negative about Batfam because a lot of the time the person who is nerfed or downgraded is Dick because he cant be too great or jack of all trades because it negates the need for a huge batfam. 

Unpopular opinion (maybe): at first it was a cute gag, but im really starting to get annoyed by the whole "Better than Batman" "Happier/Good Batman" "Batman is Nightwing's sidekick" comments.  It feels juvenile to me and really undermines all the good things that Bruce has done as Batman and how his mental health has a big influence over his actions. Yes, Dick is a great guy and certainly is a happier, friendlier person than Bruce, but that doesnt make him better than Batman and it really does ruin the idea that Dick wants to forge his own identity outside of being in Batman's shadow. But calling him a better version of batman, you are effectively keeping his character tethered to the one person he never wanted to be compared to in the first place.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I basically prefer Catwoman as just flat out against Batman.


I always liked the idea that Catwoman and Jason Todd were anti-villains due to their moral codes being so rooted in their experiences beforehand. They cant change, not because they dont want to, but because they dont know how. There is nothing really about them to change, they are who they are.

If they are gonna have Bruce settle, why not go back and work with some of his old love interests like Vicki Vale or Julie? I think exploring Bruce in a relationship in a non-supes would be good for him because it would challenge his idea that Bruce = Batman and vice versa. The idea of Dick marrying another superhero works because he always works better in a duo or group setting. Always trying to re-create those feelings and moments from his Flying Grayson Days. Whereas batman has become so far removed from true happiness, that it would take someone willing to understand that he cant turn off Batman and will support him regardless because they do love him, is something id wanna see.

thinking about it, someone like Bea from Ric Grayson era i think would be interesting to see in a relationship wth Bruce.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Dick Grayson sees Bruce Wayne more as an older brother than a father. Even though they have a complex relationship that has bits of father/son dynamic he should never call him dad. With the other robins it's different.


Low key, I actually think its kinda disrespectful for people to refer to Bruce as Dick's father and the Batfam as his true family when Dick had a whole ass family before he even met Bruce. His parents are the reason he is Robin, not Bruce/Batman. Most of what makes Dick Grayson who he is comes from his time with his family, not with Batfam. Im not saying Dick's adoptive family isnt important, because they are, but Dick's biolgical family had a huge positive and loving impact on him that he only reflects up with an uplifting feeling and that should be acknowledged a lot more than it is.

----------


## JediBatman54

Batman should be a Black Label franchise

----------


## TheRay

I think if we need a relationship for Bruce, and I think that’s in question, then why don’t we consider Alfred?

----------


## Iclifton

> I think if we need a relationship for Bruce, and I think that’s in question, then why don’t we consider Alfred?


Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.

My controversial Batfam opinion is, if DC`s not going to make Red Hood and Tim have a more unique status quo or position in the family they should simplify and just make the only two Robins Dick and Damien.

----------


## TheRay

> Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.


I agree with you, but the last time the subject of Alfred came up people were quick to point out that he wasn’t always like that and some people don’t even support that version of the character.

----------


## Zaresh

> Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.
> 
> My controversial Batfam opinion is, if DC`s not going to make Red Hood and Tim have a more unique status quo or position in the family they should simplify and just make the only two Robins Dick and Damien.


Jason is perfectly fine right now, thank you.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by TheRay
> 
> 
> I think if we need a relationship for Bruce, and I think that’s in question, then why don’t we consider Alfred?
> 
> 
> Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.


Plus, if you really want to add to the "*GROSS!*" factor, . . . 
 . . . isn't Alfred still dead at the moment?    :EEK!:

----------


## Iclifton

> Jason is perfectly fine right now, thank you.


Is that your controversial opinion?

----------


## Zaresh

> Is that your controversial opinion?


It's a fact.
If you're a fan of Jason, he's living a really sweet time. Last works he was in, have been well received by reviewers and fans: Urban Legends Cheer, Get Joker, Robins, Future State Gotham and now Task Force Z had reaped pretty solid or at least good reviews, and you can find a lot of people enjoying them and even recommending them. If that wasn't enough, he is part of the Titans United team book, and the Robins mini, and is going to have two new books wherein he will be either a regular or a main character: a 6 issues new mini story by Shawn Martinbrough, and the Beyond White Knight series, where he will be a prominent support role for either Bruce or Terry as much as Dick, if the preview and the cover are any indication. He's in a well established post as the more gray and antiheroic character in the batfam core, the one who gets dirty if he needs to, the troubled and struggling character because of his choices, and the one who works in the margins. And if that wasn't enough, he has had an (TW for opinions: awful) main role in the third season of (TW for opinions: the also awful) Titans show (why this one can't be as good as Doom Patrol? Sigh). He will also be one of the leads in the upcoming video game, shows up in a few other books, did great in Nightwing's last annual despite the caution both fanbases held and is one of the faves by the readers in that funny webtoon.

Unless you happen to dislike everything and can't enjoy a thing in the list. Or hope for him to be a villain, or a psycho. Or something.

So yeah, he's doing perfectly fine.

Compare him to more than 3/4 of the other characters in DC. Including most C listers. And even a bunch of Bs. He's doing way better. And most people are enjoying it too.

Edit: I mean, I get it's your controversial opinion (didn't get at the start, to be honest; but I get it now). I just, disagree in a point you make on it.




> Plus, if you really want to add to the "*GROSS!*" factor, . . . 
>  . . . isn't Alfred still dead at the moment?


That's actually true.
It's just so unlikely to last, that I guess no one remembers it's still a thing.

----------


## Morgoth

> My controversial Batfam opinion is, if DC`s not going to make Red Hood and Tim have a more unique status quo or position in the family they should simplify and just make the only two Robins Dick and Damien.


Well, it seems like DCAMU writers agree with your opinion.

----------


## phonogram12

> Well, it seems like DCAMU writers agree with your opinion.


Which is just one of the reasons I don't think it's particularly entertaining.

----------


## Iclifton

> It's a fact.
> If you're a fan of Jason, he's living a really sweet time. Last works he was in, have been well received by reviewers and fans: Urban Legends Cheer, Get Joker, Robins, Future State Gotham and now Task Force Z had reaped pretty solid or at least good reviews, and you can find a lot of people enjoying them and even recommending them. If that wasn't enough, he is part of the Titans United team book, and the Robins mini, and is going to have two new books wherein he will be either a regular or a main character: a 6 issues new mini story by Shawn Martinbrough, and the Beyond White Knight series, where he will be a prominent support role for either Bruce or Terry as much as Dick, if the preview and the cover are any indication. He's in a well established post as the more gray and antiheroic character in the batfam core, the one who gets dirty if he needs to, the troubled and struggling character because of his choices, and the one who works in the margins. And if that wasn't enough, he has had an (TW for opinions: awful) main role in the third season of (TW for opinions: the also awful) Titans show (why this one can't be as good as Doom Patrol? Sigh). He will also be one of the leads in the upcoming video game, shows up in a few other books, did great in Nightwing's last annual despite the caution both fanbases held and is one of the faves by the readers in that funny webtoon.
> 
> Unless you happen to dislike everything and can't enjoy a thing in the list. Or hope for him to be a villain, or a psycho. Or something.
> 
> So yeah, he's doing perfectly fine.
> 
> Compare him to more than 3/4 of the other characters in DC. Including most C listers. And even a bunch of Bs. He's doing way better. And most people are enjoying it too.
> 
> ...


Yes, but that's what makes it controversial. I think Jason has more value as an anti-hero willing to kill. That's the version other media is going to go with. The Crowbar full-time Batfamily Red Hood is not interesting to me. I like "Get Joker" but that's about it. I think he stands out as a character when he is a little closer to his animated Under The Red Hood adaption. But hey, if you like it, more power to you.

That's great that he's appearing in mini`s but wouldn`t it be better if he had his own full time solo. The more different/darker his status quo, the more his book stands apart from Nightwing. I feel like since becoming so restrained Jason has lost a lot of potential fans.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yes, but that's what makes it controversial. I think Jason has more value as an anti-hero willing to kill. That's the version other media is going to go with. The Crowbar full-time Batfamily Red Hood is not interesting to me. I like "Get Joker" but that's about it. I think he stands out as a character when he is a little closer to his animated Under The Red Hood adaption. But hey, if you like it, more power to you.
> 
> That's great that he's appearing in mini`s but wouldn`t it be better if he had his own full time solo. The more different/darker his status quo, the more his book stands apart from Nightwing. I feel like since becoming so restrained Jason has lost a lot of potential fans.


I don't know about a regular series. With minis and limited series like Task Force Z, at least we have some guaranteed planning and quality supervision. With an ongoing, that no doubt will be hijacked by the many events they do every year, nothing is guaranteed. Also, it's more likely that a good writer will get involved with a closed book than with a long term one. I'm a big fan of Moon Knight, a character Jason shares a lot of traits with, and we've gotten regular minis and limited or short ongoings with a steady regularity for years. It works well, and I suspect it can work too for Jason.

Of course, having the luck of a really good ongoing would be great, yeah. But, what are the chances? Look at Superman or Batgirl, ot the Titans: how they have fared, and those are A listers. I don't know. For me, these limited series have been pretty good so far, I don't know if I would risk for an ongoing until it's a team I trust and I have the promise that it's not going to be derailled by events. Also, because minis change writers, they feel varied: not the same story beats and hits repeated because the writers can't come with new stories to tell. Creativity has limits for a person. Aaand, they're easier to collect, follow and purchase or pass, to be absolutely honest. If I don't like one, I don't buy it. I also like that part.

The realistic guns aren't coming back. New politics in comics demand the good guys to not use them. And, well, it will be a while until Jason can or is allowed to kill anyone for good. Let alone they to be actual named characters: not going to happen, unless it's for a very planned story arc or a black label book. I suspect the closest we will have is stuff like what he did in Task Force Z, with Jason killing those cobra cult zombied tugs and then zombied Bane.

Not until they decide to once again repeat the same old story of Jason breaking with the fam, which, at this point, I think needs to rest for a few years. You can write a very good story for it again, but in my opinion it needs proper building. And that takes time. Give it time. 

(To be honest, I'm alright with how he's now, though: it feels like progression in his character, and I'm all about character evolution, as impossible as it is to acchieve and keep in corporate comics. But I get it that it is an actual point many readers like about Jason: that he is willed to kill. And it's not like he actually sign out from thinking some people are better dead. I think he said something like that in the last issue of Cheer. Anyways, I don't hold hopes for this new status to last forever. I expect him to kill again in a few years. I hope at least is for a good story)

As for the Nightwing comparison, I think, as Jason is now, looking at how he reads in his books, he's still different than any of the other characters in the fam. He doesn't talk like Dick, behaves or reacts like him, doesn't have the same kind of interactions with other characters either, and he has to face a different set of challenges because of his very different backstory and history. That ultimately makes for different stories if the writer wants to write them. He also plays dirtier than Dick, which helps. I don't think he would have the same dynamic with the other characters in his current book or in Future State Gotham if he were Dick. I know you're not alone in your opinion, though: many people keep saying that lately. But I have to disagree.

----------


## Iclifton

> I don't know about a regular series. With minis and limited series like Task Force Z, at least we have some guaranteed planning and quality supervision. With an ongoing, that no doubt will be hijacked by the many events they do every year, nothing is guaranteed. Also, it's more likely that a good writer will get involved with a closed book than with a long term one. I'm a big fan of Moon Knight, a character Jason shares a lot of traits with, and we've gotten regular minis and limited or short ongoings with a steady regularity for years. It works well, and I suspect it can work too for Jason.
> 
> Of course, having the luck of a really good ongoing would be great, yeah. But, what are the chances? Look at Superman or Batgirl, ot the Titans: how they have fared, and those are A listers. I don't know. For me, these limited series have been pretty good so far, I don't know if I would risk for an ongojng until it's a team I trust and I have the promise that it's not going to be derailled by any event. Also, because they change writeds, they feel varied: not the same story beats and hits repeated because the writers can't come with new stories to tell. Creativity has limits for a person. Aaand, they're easier to collect, follow and purchase or not, to be absolutely honest. I also like that part.
> 
> The realistic guns aren't coming back. New politics in comics demand the good guys to not use them. And, well, it will be a while until Jason can or is allowed to kill anyone for good. Let alone they to be actual named characters: not going to happen, unless it's for a very planned story arc or a black label book. I suspect the closest we will have is stuff like what he was in Task Forze Z, with Jason killing those cobra cult zombied tugs and then zombied Bane.
> 
> Not until they decide to once again repeat the same old story of Jason breaking with the fam, which, at this point, I think needs to rest for a few years. You can write a very good story for it again, but in my opinion it needs proper building. And that takes time. Give it time. 
> 
> As for the Nightwing comparison, I think, as Jason is now, looking at how he reads in his books, he's still plenty different than any of the other characters in the fam (he's a bit like Kate, I guess, though. But Kate's fans probably disagree). He's doesn't talk like Dick, behaves or reacts like him, doesn't have the same kind of interactions with other characters either, and he has to face a different set of challenges because of his very different backstory and history. That ultimately makes for different stories if the writer want him to write them. He also plays dirtier than Dick, which helps. I don't think Dick would have the same dynamic with the othercharacters in his current book or in Future State Gotham if he were Dick. I know you're not alone in your opinion, though: many people keep saying that lately. ButI I have to disagree.


Personally I would always prefer an ongoing. Eventually you will get a stellar run that goes longer than a mini. Especially if DC actually wants to push the character. All of the characters mentioned above had some bad runs. They have also had a good runs. But like I said, f you like things how they are, more power to you.

Deathstroke still uses guns and he is not a straight super villain. He also consistently has a book. Something like this would be my preference for Jason. But I am not too hung up on the guns. More the costume and lethal force.

----------


## Zaresh

> Personally I would always prefer an ongoing. Eventually you will get a stellar run that goes longer than a mini. Especially if DC actually wants you to push you. All of the characers mentioned above had some bad runs. They have also had a good runs. But like I said, f you like things how they are, more power to you.
> 
> Deathstroke still uses guns and he is not a straight super villain. He also consistently has a book. Something like this would be my preference for Jason. But I am not too hung up on the guns. More the costume and lethal force.


A bad run that runs for too long can kill a character. If not for the undieing and big fanbase Dick has, I don't think he would've survived his very, very unpopular Ric run. Wally didn't survive a chain of bad runs and was erased for several years, almost a decade.

Deathstroke is a villain, he just happens to be a protagonist villain. Like Lex Luthor, or like Doctor Doom in Marvel. And readers know. He's also an insanely popular character since the late 80's and the 90's, too, so he keeps getting ongoings every now and then.

(I edited my previous message before seeing your new message. Added things and erased other things. I'm sorry for the inconveniences)

----------


## Iclifton

One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings.

So I think this is where we get to our difference of opinion. I would prefer a Jason closer to Deathstroke. I want him to be a killer. One who believes he's doing the right thing. But still, a killer. A more balanced "Under The Red Hood " version. I have not been a fan of any of Jason`s developments since 2011. That's not to say he has not had good stories. Just that each development lead him a little further away from the version I found interesting again and again. When I read him now, he feels like a diet version of the him I prefer. But again, that's just my opinion. I'm obviously not as big of a fan of the character as you are.

----------


## Zaresh

> One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings.
> 
> So I think this is where we get to our difference of opinion. I would prefer a Jason closer to Deathstroke. I want him to be a killer. One who believes he's doing the right thing. But still, a killer. A more balanced "Under The Red Hood " version. I have not been a fan of any of Jason`s developments since 2011. That's not to say he has not had good stories. Just that each development lead him a little further away from the version I found interesting again and again. When I read him now, he feels like a diet version of the him I prefer. But again, that's just my opinion. I'm obviously not as big of a fan of the character as you are.


Or you like him different. Hey, you like him a villain (edit: or very antagonistic towards the batfam, I guess), it's cool, too. He was a great antivillain in Under the Hood. It's just, I think that's asking for a stale status where he keeps being a one trick character that probably will serve as just fuel for another hero in one story where he's not the focus, and he's going to be presented as the one in the wrong (well, he is often enough even when he's rather heroic but does his thing, behaves like himself). That's not how you get an ongoing either. Or make him sympathetic to the audience readers. It's not going to work unless he becomes way, way more popular. Like Deathstroke, or like Puniaher, who has villanious traits, if you ask me, and sometimes has worked as just a villain (or maybe just very antagonistic) to other characters' stories even despite being that much popular.

Dick has a reading base that knows him as the OG Robin for the last 80 years, and became very, very popular in the 80's with the New Teen Titans and later in the 90's, with Dixon's Nightwing. The reason he keeps having an ongoing is because he is an A lister, he's popular since forever, and he keeps his fanbase stable. Jason can't compare.

(After reading myself, I feel like I'm trying to change your mind, but I don't want to. I just meant to point those points out. You are in your right for asking for what you ask, and I don't think it makes you a smaller fan either. A different kind of fan, but not smaller. And, well, if this is the case, that you like him as a very antagonistic vigilante, then yeah, he's not going great for you)

----------


## MajorHoy

> One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings...


 . . . though it took him more than a half century to achieve that.
Prior to that, he would have solo-features, but not his own ongoing solo title series.

Tim had his first 5-issue solo run four years before Dick had his 4-issue *Nightwing* run.

----------


## Agent Z

> I agree with you, but the last time the subject of Alfred came up people were quick to point out that he wasnt always like that and some people dont even support that version of the character.


Those people do not reflect the majority of Batman fans, nor does what Alfred started out like change what he has been like for several decades. Batman originally used guns, but a lot of fans would lose it if DC started having him do so again.

----------


## Iclifton

> . . . though it took him more than a half century to achieve that.
> Prior to that, he would have solo-features, but not his own ongoing solo title series.
> 
> Tim had his first 5-issue solo run four years before Dick had his 4-issue *Nightwing* run.


And? 

Seriously not seeing what that has to do with what I said. The point I was making was I believe ongoing solos lead to a growing fan base and the possibility of strong stories. The poster pointed out Nightwing as an A lister and I attributed his fan base to his solos. Great, Tim had a solo. He also had a strong fan base. But its waining. He also hasnt had a solo since 2011.

----------


## ToryBlaker

There is nothing to understand there, it's as simple as stated Period!

----------


## Lal

> It's a fact.
> If you're a fan of Jason, he's living a really sweet time. Last works he was in, have been well received by reviewers and fans: Urban Legends Cheer, Get Joker, Robins, Future State Gotham and now Task Force Z had reaped pretty solid or at least good reviews, and you can find a lot of people enjoying them and even recommending them. If that wasn't enough, he is part of the Titans United team book, and the Robins mini, and is going to have two new books wherein he will be either a regular or a main character: a 6 issues new mini story by Shawn Martinbrough, and the Beyond White Knight series, where he will be a prominent support role for either Bruce or Terry as much as Dick, if the preview and the cover are any indication. He's in a well established post as the more gray and antiheroic character in the batfam core, the one who gets dirty if he needs to, the troubled and struggling character because of his choices, and the one who works in the margins. And if that wasn't enough, he has had an (TW for opinions: awful) main role in the third season of (TW for opinions: the also awful) Titans show (why this one can't be as good as Doom Patrol? Sigh). He will also be one of the leads in the upcoming video game, shows up in a few other books, did great in Nightwing's last annual despite the caution both fanbases held and is one of the faves by the readers in that funny webtoon.
> 
> Unless you happen to dislike everything and can't enjoy a thing in the list. Or hope for him to be a villain, or a psycho. Or something.
> 
> So yeah, he's doing perfectly fine.
> .


There's no doubt that Red Hood appears in more adaptations right now. The problem is that he's written quite differently and inconsistently in every single adaptation. He was more emotional and unbalanced in Cheer, in Titans United he still uses guns and is more fun and banters, in FS he's more serious and experienced. Some of those differences make sense, as FS takes part in this alternate timeline, but some of it is just different interpretations of the character. 
I think DC's idea is to try different directions and see which interpretation gets the most readers and enthusiasm. 

Btw - FS Gotham (and to some extent also Robins) aren't very well-received. FS Gotham is one of the lowest-selling bat books and its reception is more like C-. 
Robins started with negative reviews but it's still too early to say for sure. We also don't know how well it sells yet.

So from one hand, Jason appears in more adaptations, but his only current continuity adaptation right now is Task force Z. Robins and Titans United are continuity adjacent. FS and White knight are alternate worlds/ timelines. SS get joker is keep being delayed, so I wonder if it got completely rewritten. It also didn't seem to generate a similar buzz or impact as, let's say, Dick's Robin&Batman mini generated, even though it could have been an interesting confrontation between Jason and Harley, or Jason and Joker, or even Harley and the Joker.

But it's definitely much better than the end of his Rebirth run.

----------


## Zaresh

> There's no doubt that Red Hood appears in more adaptations right now. The problem is that he's written quite differently and inconsistently in every single adaptation. He was more emotional and unbalanced in Cheer, in Titans United he still uses guns and is more fun and banters, in FS he's more serious and experienced. Some of those differences make sense, as FS takes part in this alternate timeline, but some of it is just different interpretations of the character. 
> I think DC's idea is to try different directions and see which interpretation gets the most readers and enthusiasm. 
> 
> Btw - FS Gotham (and to some extent also Robins) aren't very well-received. FS Gotham is one of the lowest-selling bat books and its reception is more like C-. 
> Robins started with negative reviews but it's still too early to say for sure. We also don't know how well it sells yet.
> 
> So from one hand, Jason appears in more adaptations, but his only current continuity adaptation right now is Task force Z. Robins and Titans United are continuity adjacent. FS and White knight are alternate worlds/ timelines. SS get joker is keep being delayed, so I wonder if it got completely rewritten. It also didn't seem to generate a similar buzz or impact as, let's say, Dick's Robin&Batman mini generated, even though it could have been an interesting confrontation between Jason and Harley, or Jason and Joker, or even Harley and the Joker.
> 
> But it's definitely much better than the end of his Rebirth run.


I think he's doing better than Barbara or Tim, for mentioning two inside the batman franchise.

Dick's Robin and Batman mini is a general audience aimed book pretty well promoted for its release and afterwards, that every Dick fan is going to collect and is also helped a little bit by the nostalgia effect. All of that unlike Azzarello's work, a mature aimed book that doesn't seem to have had a lot of promotion either after the first time it was announced and that, for some unknown reason, gets delayed again and again. Doesn't help that Azzarello's work is pretty divisive, I guess. I like both books a lot, honestly, but I don't think they can compare even when they share similarities, like being made by high profile teams and set in alternate universes/meshed-up continuities (well, it's not clear in the case of the Robin book. But I think it also is. Nowadays there's no true canon anymore, but many readers still try to fit books into a certain canon).

The Robins book was already fighting conflicting reception before it was released because of the poll-competition backlash. Yeah, it is a just-OK book as far as reviews go, with a mixed reception. But the last issue was better received already.

Titans United is a fun book aimed for a certain audience, a simpler fun driven work that its readers are enjoying (I don't like it, but those who are following it, do). It's a full and honest alternate universe that seems to have a character much like he is shown in several fan fictions: the somewhat* antagonistic badboy of the hero's band (the black/sixth* ranger of the team. *Or the Wolverine*).

And FS:G is set in an alternate future in a dead on arrival line of books that's also in pure black and white artstyle, already a hard to sell trait for your average superhero comic reader. It was pretty well promoted, and the actual reviews are pretty fine, average good. But it's not going to sell a lot, ever.

Honestly, it feels like some of you are comparing Dick and Jason as if they were in similar circumstances or equals sales and fandom alike. They're not. They don't get the same treatment and they never will. And despite Jason's growing popularity, he's nowhere near Dick's one. His comic fanbase, even if not small, is a lot smaller than Dick's, and classic readers aren't going to be so interested by his stories. He has an appeal, but to certain readers and his long term fans. He also has a lot of diehard haters. Just look at the polls in this very same forum. Or look at the pull lists users make when the solicits with new series arrive here: there's a lot of users that will purchase anything with Dick on it. With Jason? Just a bunch of us fans.

And this is my opinion on it too, but Jason in Cheer was a very distressed Jason initially, and the story was about his issues with Bruce and with himself. Once he worked those issues and got his head straight, he was once again like his collected self. That said, I know that some very dedicated fans (and not a few) have issues with Zdarsky take on him, but I don't. For me, it fits his character under previous emotionally stressed moments.

----------


## Aahz

I think one problem with Jason is that a lot of writers don't write him particularly well, and that you never really know what you are getting when a new series by a writer who has never written him before is announced.

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## Zaresh

> I think one problem with Jason is that a lot of writers don't write him particularly well, and that you never really know what you are getting when a new series by a writer who has never written him before is announced.


I can see it being a factor in why not every fan buys the books he's in by first day release. But that wariness shouldn't last too long, right? Hummm... I don't know.

----------


## MajorHoy

> And? 
> 
> Seriously not seeing what that has to do with what I said. The point I was making was I believe ongoing solos lead to a growing fan base and the possibility of strong stories. The poster pointed out Nightwing as an A lister and I attributed his fan base to his solos. Great, Tim had a solo. He also had a strong fan base. But it’s waining. He also hasn’t had a solo since 2011.


You had said


> One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has *consistently* had ongoings...


and I was pointing out he wasn't the first Robin/former Robin to have an ongoing self-titled book, plus who knows if Dick would have ever had his own self-titled series if Tim's *Robin* series hadn't proved so popular?

And like I said, Dick (as both Robin and later as Nightwing) did have his own feature off and on for several decades, but that's not quite the same thing.  The fact that it took Dick so long to get his own solo-title may also not have been known to people who weren't regular readers of DC comic books prior to 1995.

----------


## Iclifton

> You had saidand I was pointing out he wasn't the first Robin/former Robin to have an ongoing self-titled book, plus who knows if Dick would have ever had his own self-titled series if Tim's *Robin* series hadn't proved so popular?
> 
> And like I said, Dick (as both Robin and later as Nightwing) did have his own feature off and on for several decades, but that's not quite the same thing.  The fact that it took Dick so long to get his own solo-title may also not have been known to people who weren't regular readers of DC comic books prior to 1995.


I never said he had an ongoing first. Just that a large part of his fan base is because of regularly having an ongoing. Which is true. Tim's ongoing is also a big part of his fan base. Dick Grayson was seen as a side kick, not a main character until he began featuring regularly in an ongoing.

Additionally, when Tim got that solo he was Robin, a marketable identity. A bit different then trying to build a fan base on a brand new identity. However, in my original post I never once compared Dick to Tim or stated he was the first to get a series.

----------


## Jackalope89

...Anyway, Zaresh is right. Most Jason fans are either content or even happy with Jason's level of exposure, stories, and characterization right now. With Future State Gotham being quite the surprise for him overall.

----------


## dietrich

> Which is just one of the reasons I don't think it's particularly entertaining.


I love that shared Universe.

----------


## JediBatman54

Golden Age Batman is the best i do not like the modern versions of the character
i love The Dynamic Duo and the 1940s setting

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## Restingvoice

At this point Jason Todd characterization conflict:
1. Hero vs Anti hero vs Villain vs Anti villain
2. Gun vs no gun (though I heard this has been decided by WB to be no guns)
3. How close to Bat family
4. Street level vs superhero 
In that order
That is the most conflicting take of a character within the Bat-family since people (both writers and fans) can't even agree on what his moral alignment should be, especially since each part of it relies on a different audience. 
UTRH/AK -> Anti-villain
Morrison -> Villain
RHATO and current -> Anti-Hero
Batfam/WFA -> Hero
Again that's before going into the details such as his mental health, supporting cast, attitude and characterization, tone of the story, and how much people like him interact with other characters, but starting with his moral alignment/ideology, would be a start. 
So there's a LOT, and each branching paths have its fans

Me, specfically, here's the branch I like: 
Kill when necessary but otherwise no > Anti Hero > Out of Gotham > Street level > Guns! > Team optional > A fugitive in some states > Can visit Gotham > Not estranged with the Bat fam (reached an understanding) > Snarky family member who raid the fridge when he visits and I don't hate you but otherwise leave me the fuck alone, dad

----------


## TheRay

Since we can't have our Nightwing go back the Teen Titans since he aged out, I think it could be fun to have a Nightwing from a different Earth running around who is still a teen.
The interactions between the two Nightwings would be very intriguing.

----------


## Zaresh

> At this point Jason Todd characterization conflict:
> 1. Hero vs Anti hero vs Villain vs Anti villain
> 2. Gun vs no gun (though I heard this has been decided by WB to be no guns)
> 3. How close to Bat family
> 4. Street level vs superhero


Well, some of those points are already set in the main DCU if you look at his comics for the last 2 years. And another was pretty constant too except for sidestories for him, like his role in Leviatan, for a few more years previously.

1. He hasn't been a real villain in the main DCU since New 52 (11 years ago). He has been suspected to be a traitor because of his past several times, and has been antagonistic to Bruce in particular a few times in that time. He has also collaborated with a villain a few times too, but you can say the same for other bats, too. He has been a villain in elseworlds and alternate realities a few times too, but again, you can say the same for the others. His allignment place since the new 52 arrived seems to be an anti-hero who has heroic moments and also neutral, rebellious or uncomfortable stands. Some fans who would like him a bad guy or a bastard who can be a villain may not like it, but as I said, I think it is pretty set at this point. For now. Things can change a lot 5 years in the future. Most Jason fans like him an antihero as far as I know. It's the option that tends to win every poll.
2. No guns in the main DCU and more general audience aimed works. It seems to be a problem in certain markets, and they have decided to change it. I think this started in the second half of his last RHATO run, or at least, we were already commenting that back in the day when we saw it shifting towards no guns. There may be more reasons, but at least that one is almost confirmed. It's not going to be a well received change, because most fans like him with guns. But we can't do much about it. And it's not like Jason didn't use a wide array of weapons before, so, well, there's that.
3. DC has decided that he's close to the core fam, enough to go and help them in certain cases and events, but not close enough to be a regular: he's what I call, a "cousin". He's in a similar spot than Cass but not as close as Steph or Barbara are, and seems to have a rocky relationship with Bruce (and only him), which is to be expected. This has been the regular take for the last 5 years or so for most of the writers that used him. It's a place some fans would like to be closer, and some other, farer. So I guess it's not a bad spot in the range.
4. This one is the one that's less set. But again, you can say the same for the other bats, included Batman. I love diversity in stories, so I can't really complain. Fans are pretty divided here, too. Same as Batman fans with this topic.

There's a lot of smaller things that need to be set, as you have already mentioned. But you can say the same about stablished characters, like Dick or Tim, that have been runing for longer. Right now, I think, the one better defined is Damian.

Also, fans never, ever get to a consensus. There's a part that will always complain about ten different things. I guess this is why they try to find a balanced place every few years, for the shifting readership. And why DC never pleases everyone.




> Me, specfically, here's the branch I like: 
> Kill when necessary but otherwise no > Anti Hero > Out of Gotham > Street level > Guns! > Team optional > A fugitive in some states > Can visit Gotham > Not estranged with the Bat fam (reached an understanding) > Snarky family member who raid the fridge when he visits and I don't hate you but otherwise leave me the fuck alone, dad


Pretty average fan take on Jason. I think.

----------


## CPSparkles

Having multiple batgirls, robins and Red Hood's characterization's conflicts splits bases and divide's the fans. 
If DC keeps doing that then those characters affected will struggle building/maintaining a dedicated sizeable fan base.

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## MajorHoy

> Since we can't have our Nightwing go back the Teen Titans since he aged out, I think it could be fun to have a Nightwing from a different Earth running around who is still a teen.
> The interactions between the two Nightwings would be very intriguing.


But Dick wasn't really Nightwing when he was "still a teen" unless you mean around 19 years old.

Younger Dick would have still been using the Robin identity, which Dick had still maintained when he first went to college.
Unless that got retconned away when I wasn't reading; hell, is there even a definite agreement at DC as to how old Dick was when he first became Robin these days?

----------


## godisawesome

> Having multiple batgirls, robins and Red Hood's characterization's conflicts splits bases and divide's the fans. 
> If DC keeps doing that then those characters affected will struggle building/maintaining a dedicated sizeable fan base.


That was never the case during the Post-Crisis years when they first expanded them, nor was it the case when Inc. kicked off a new Renaissance for the properties. Nor did it stop Green Lantern from experiencing their renaissance. Nor did it stop the X-books. Pretty much every time that franchises expanded into numerous redundant characters, it was because they knew they would succeed. And then they did and then years later other, generally more logistical problems eventually derailed everything.

The characters and their numbers dont threaten each other. A depleted roster of writers who lean more towards mediocre writing than competent, and a tendency by DC to try fixing what isnt broken in their most successful franchise, has much more to do with the fanbases shrinking.

What infighting there is among fanbases has more to do with editorial groups trying to enforce some scheme for limited rosters or limited roles.

----------


## Micael

> That was never the case during the Post-Crisis years when they first expanded them, nor was it the case when Inc. kicked off a new Renaissance for the properties.


I hope they bring Batman Inc back. Some of the batfamily characters would do well working the international scene and interacting with other characters. Honestly Tim Drake seems tailor made for this approach. When Morrison was writing Inc it seemed like he wanted him and Bruce to travel around the world together working with international heroes and solving crisis outside of Gotham. Cass, Steph, Duke could all do the same

----------


## TheRay

Every member of the Batfamily could probably carry their own book.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Every member of the Batfamily could probably carry their own book.


But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc. A way to solve that is separating them via location. Sending them out into the larger DCU feels like the good way to go. Batman Inc could helps the batfamily stand out from Batman's shadow.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc. A way to solve that is separating them via location. Sending them out into the larger DCU feels like the good way to go. Batman Inc could helps the batfamily stand out from Batman's shadow.


I think having a Batfam character as part of another characters mythos would be nice. They can operate in their own little corner of those mythos and become a significant character separate from the rest of the batfam. Like Babs would do well in the world of Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. Nightwing, idk where he would go yet, but perhaps somewhere where the old meets new. Maybe spyral? Tim has obviously taken over the teen titans/young justice front. Damian can stay with Batman. Cass and Stephanie can do BOP/Batgirls stuff.

I think it’d help if DC you know, introduced new characters and worlds lol that way it’s easier for the batfam to spread out and only cross over if the situation calls for it.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I think having a Batfam character as part of another characters mythos would be nice. They can operate in their own little corner of those mythos and become a significant character separate from the rest of the batfam. Like Babs would do well in the world of Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. Nightwing, idk where he would go yet, but perhaps somewhere where the old meets new. Maybe spyral? Tim has obviously taken over the teen titans/young justice front. Damian can stay with Batman. Cass and Stephanie can do BOP/Batgirls stuff.
> 
> I think it’d help if DC you know, introduced new characters and worlds lol that way it’s easier for the batfam to spread out and only cross over if the situation calls for it.


It helps with the illusion of change and offer more opportunities.

 I'm cool with Steph volunteering at an Amazon run women's shelter. Tim should go to Ivy University. Azrael could be the Bat representative of Rome. Luke should've went into space while Jean hung out with JLD. Barbara was based in Silicon Valley when she was with the Birds and I'm cool with her going back under different circumstances.

I preferred Dick with Spyral so maybe he could join the DEO? That works better for Bette.

----------


## Aahz

> Most Jason fans are either content or even happy with Jason's level of exposure, stories, and characterization right now. With Future State Gotham being quite the surprise for him overall.


I still think that:
- it happens way to often that he is used way to often to prop up some other Batfamily members or villains (more often than any other of the core members imo)
- way to rarely that he is presented as capable crime fighter who can take down a major villain on his own (especially in cross overs and events)
- that the amount of training he has (All-Caste+lots of guys Thalia organised for him) is ignored

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## Aahz

> But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc. A way to solve that is separating them via location. Sending them out into the larger DCU feels like the good way to go. Batman Inc could helps the batfamily stand out from Batman's shadow.


The problem is imo bad writing and an lack of editorial coordination and not characterisation and location.

In the late 90s early 2000s you had iirc Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Catwoman, Azrael and the Birds of Prey in Gotham, and Nightwing operating near by in Blüdheaven, that was my one of the strongest eras of the franchise.

Batman Inc is imo a really bad idea, since that adds really way to many characters to the franchise.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> The problem is imo bad writing and an lack of editorial coordination and not characterisation and location.
> 
> In the late 90s early 2000s you had iirc Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Catwoman, Azrael and the Birds of Prey in Gotham, and Nightwing operating near by in Blüdheaven, that was my one of the strongest eras of the franchise.
> 
> Batman Inc is imo a really bad idea, since that adds really way to many characters to the franchise.


But they are outside of Gotham which makes them easier to manage and gives them a selling point. Which is what I'm suggesting for the Batfamily. Those characters sticking around Gotham doesn't have much appeal to me anymore.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc.


That's only a problem if you're picking up all of them. The average person's probably only gonna pick one or two that is their favorite. 

Or if they appear in the same story, usually in a crossover, and then writers feel the necessity to differentiate them when having 4 detectives or 5 martial artists make sense to cover the 3 islands plus 2 suburbs of Gotham

----------


## TheRay

> But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc.


Not completely.

----------


## marhawkman

> Since we can't have our Nightwing go back the Teen Titans since he aged out, I think it could be fun to have a Nightwing from a different Earth running around who is still a teen.
> The interactions between the two Nightwings would be very intriguing.


duplicate Dicks? DO NOT WANT!  :Stick Out Tongue:  I'd rather have Damian as Nightwing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Lal

> Every member of the Batfamily could probably carry their own book.


We already know it's not true, as runs were ended due to low sales, and one shots already showed that there are characters that can't guarantee stable sales.

----------


## TheRay

That’s happened to much more popular characters, though. It might be the popular thing to do, but you can’t only factor sales in.




> duplicate Dicks? DO NOT WANT!  I'd rather have Damian as Nightwing.


I’m glad this was a joke.

----------


## Lal

> That’s happened to much more popular characters, though. It might be the popular thing to do, but you can’t only factor sales in.


Right now we have solo books for Nightwing, Robin, Catwoman, Harley, the Batgirls share a book, and Jason has Task force Z. So with the exception of Tim, all the inner circle of the batfamily and main Gotham characters are accounted for in ongoing or maxi series.
In the second circle we have Batwoman and Huntress that right now are leading Detective comics, with Huntress appearing there regularly for over a year. Bluebird has the punchline backup and Duke appears in Urban legends. Even Azreal appears in a mini.
The facts are that not every single batfamily member can have a solo, and sales are a critical factor when DC decide which of the characters would get a book. It's clear why DC prefers to publish books that would sell 40k over books that would sell 20k, and if talent is limited and they are more conservative and prefer to examine readers interest with minis and one shots, it makes a lot of sense.
But right now it seems that even less popular characters appear in either team books or anthologies. Urban legends spesifically allow characters to appear from time to time and not fade even if they aren't leading a book.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Right now we have solo books for Nightwing, Robin, Catwoman, Harley, the Batgirls share a book, and Jason has Task force Z. So with the exception of Tim, all the inner circle of the batfamily and main Gotham characters are accounted for in ongoing or maxi series.
> In the second circle we have Batwoman and Huntress that right now are leading Detective comics, with Huntress appearing there regularly for over a year. Bluebird has the punchline backup and Duke appears in Urban legends. Even Azreal appears in a mini.
> The facts are that not every single batfamily member can have a solo, and sales are a critical factor when DC decide which of the characters would get a book. It's clear why DC prefers to publish books that would sell 40k over books that would sell 20k, and if talent is limited and they are more conservative and prefer to examine readers interest with minis and one shots, it makes a lot of sense.
> But right now it seems that even less popular characters appear in either team books or anthologies. Urban legends spesifically allow characters to appear from time to time and not fade even if they aren't leading a book.


Jason also has Future State: Gotham. For all intents and purposes, he is the main protagonist.

----------


## TheRay

> The facts are that not every single batfamily member can have a solo


It seems like you're arguing for whether or not there's enough room for them to have a solo, not whether or not they actually can.

----------


## godisawesome

> It seems like you're arguing for whether or not there's enough room for them to have a solo, not whether or not they actually can.


Yeah, there’s plenty of room - as I said earlier, the logistics of getting the right talent is the hard part… but the Bat Books have had that before.

Chuck Dixon used to be basically the workhorse/utility player of the BatBooks, able to handle any combination of books on an utterly insane level of workload with always good execution. Meanwhile, the roster of writers around the Inc. era was absolutely insane on its own, and better than anything that really came afterwards.

Again, though, I’d argue that editorials attempts to conserve strength outside fo book assignments has usually backfired - though that’s more with how often they fumbled and flailed on the Batgirls than the Robins.

----------


## Godlike13

> It seems like you're arguing for whether or not there's enough room for them to have a solo, not whether or not they actually can.


Its a bit of both really. Not all of them can sell, and oversaturation can effect the ones that do.

----------


## Lal

> It seems like you're arguing for whether or not there's enough room for them to have a solo, not whether or not they actually can.


I'm saying that not all bat characters have a big enough fan base or generate enough interest to support an ongoing book with sustainable sales. I think we can all agree on that. 

So as to who is able to have a sustainable solo - DC are now trying to give many characters a chance and testing their popularity in one shots or minis. That's a valid way, and if a character wasn't able to sell well, there's no reason to expect DC to announce an ongoing or a follow up book for them, when they could instead just give a book to a different character that generates more interest and sales.

So by "can" I mean all factors. Enough room, enough creators, general interest, sales. I'm sure that if a Duke one shot or an Azreal mini would have sold spectecularily, DC would have found the talent to write an ongoing for them.

There's also another problem with many writers trying to show the relevance or capability of their characters by undermining other characters. Especially in the bat books, with so many bat characters sharing similar traits, that is a problem. If a character is the only one smart enough, capable enough, or seen by Batman as the only one worthy, other brands and characters are hurt.

----------


## TheRay

> Again, though, I’d argue that editorials attempts to conserve strength outside fo book assignments has usually backfired.


Okay, let's hear that argument.

----------


## Aahz

> There's also another problem with many writers trying to show the relevance or capability of their characters by undermining other characters. Especially in the bat books, with so many bat characters sharing similar traits, that is a problem.


I think one many of the new characters being to similar to already existing ones, is neither helping the old not the new ones.

And that the writers sometimes add traits of one established character to another, or are generally pretty inconsistent in what what skills and traits each character has, is also not helping.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I'm fine with Tim getting retired.

----------


## phonogram12

Adult Damien as Batman is more interesting than current Damien as Robin.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Adult Damien as Batman is more interesting than current Damien as Robin.


Dami*a*n. With an "a".

----------


## phonogram12

> Dami*a*n. With an "a".


Apparently that's how bored I am with current Damian. I can't even be bothered to remember how to spell his name correctly.

----------


## dietrich

> Apparently that's how bored I am with current Damian. I can't even be bothered to remember how to spell his name correctly.


You also spelt the interesting version wrong. i just think you don't know how to spell Damian.

My controversial opinion I can't abide the incorrect spelling of Damian's name especially since Damian and Damien have very different meanings.

I feel the ire when Fans misspell Conner and Connor.

----------


## dietrich

> I'm fine with Tim getting retired.



I don't think that's a controversial opinion.

----------


## phonogram12

> You also spelt the interesting version wrong.


Did I, though?

That was actually a rhetorical question. I'm well aware that I didn't. :Wink:

----------


## Pete26

> duplicate Dicks? DO NOT WANT!  I'd rather have Damian as Nightwing.


Nah, I don't need two Dicks

----------


## Timothy Hunter

The murder of Batman's parents is the most boring part of his mythos.

When Bruce Wayne's motivation for being Batman is boiled down to a single tragic event by writers it takes away his complexity.

----------


## Timothy Hunter

> I don't think that's a controversial opinion.


I wonder where this hatred/ambivalence of Tim Drake originated. I suspect sometime around the start of the New Fifty Two, because DC hasn't done anything remarkable with him in over a decade. I think Tim's popularity is  rooted in how consistently good in solo series was, but now that he has hasn't had an ongoing since 2011 and he's been rendered into an ensemble character without a strong enough personality to stand out.

----------


## Lal

> I wonder where this hatred/ambivalence of Tim Drake originated. I suspect sometime around the start of the New Fifty Two, because DC hasn't done anything remarkable with him in over a decade. I think Tim's popularity is  rooted in how consistently good in solo series was, but now that he has hasn't had an ongoing since 2011 and he's been rendered into an ensemble character without a strong enough personality to stand out.


It probably stems from there being so many bat characters, and Tim sharing so many similar traits with the others. 
Tim, until making him bi, didn't really have something to really distinguish himself from the others. 
They even acknowledged it in the Robin special - he's not the golden boy or the bad boy or the child of Batman and Grandson to Ra's. He's "the other one".

DC just decided to make him Bi, and retiring the queer Robin now could be quite problematic. So maybe they could just put him in an entirely different position. Grayson was great, and while Tim isn't exactly a sexy superspy, he's smart and could maybe carry the spies/ espionage angle of the DCU. Maybe being separated from other Gotham characters could help.

----------


## exile001

> I wonder where this hatred/ambivalence of Tim Drake originated. I suspect sometime around the start of the New Fifty Two, because DC hasn't done anything remarkable with him in over a decade. I think Tim's popularity is  rooted in how consistently good in solo series was, but now that he has hasn't had an ongoing since 2011 and he's been rendered into an ensemble character without a strong enough personality to stand out.


I think it interest in Tim was starting to wane by the time his Dad was killed* but it really kicked off from Damian fans feeling threatened Tim would return and as a reflection of Tim fans hating that Damian replaced him (starting with Damian half killing him in the first arc). Since then it's just grown into the usual echo chamber of "Tim is the best/worst character EVAR!1!1!!!!!!!" as these things are wont to do.

*Tim started as a smart but flawed character, but between the second half of Dixon's run and Johns making him Batman Jr on Teen Titans he was seen as too perfect and generic.

----------


## Godlike13

Tim’s the Nickelback of the Batfamily. He ran his course. Being so formulaic and generic just stopped being appealing. As he continues to try to follow the formula of others with this pursuit to establish his Nightwing. His popularity is rooted and dependent on pure nostalgia at this point. He was a generation’s Robin, but new generations became consumers and so he fell off.

----------


## Gaius

> Tim’s the Nickelback of the Batfamily. He ran his course. Being so formulaic and generic just stopped being appealing. As he continues to try to follow the formula of others with this pursuit to establish his Nightwing. His popularity is rooted and dependent on pure nostalgia at this point. He was a generation’s Robin, but new generations became consumers and so he fell off.


Posts like this are this site needs a "like" function.

----------


## Alan2099

When they killed Tim's dad, they were trying to make his character into something it wasn't and he never recovered from that.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I wonder where this hatred/ambivalence of Tim Drake originated. I suspect sometime around the start of the New Fifty Two, because DC hasn't done anything remarkable with him in over a decade. I think Tim's popularity is  rooted in how consistently good in solo series was, but now that he has hasn't had an ongoing since 2011 and he's been rendered into an ensemble character without a strong enough personality to stand out.


For me it's more boredom than outright hatred. Tim hasn't appealed to me in years. Tim was more interesting when I was in high school. Unfortunately the new 52 coincided with my college years. Tim and the YJ crew just weren't interesting to me anymore.

Right now there's a bunch of new characters that caught my attention. Tim just feels stale and comic book time didn't help his generation. It's not a unique problem to them but a notable one.

----------


## Aahz

> I wonder where this hatred/ambivalence of Tim Drake originated. I suspect sometime around the start of the New Fifty Two, because DC hasn't done anything remarkable with him in over a decade. I think Tim's popularity is  rooted in how consistently good in solo series was, but now that he has hasn't had an ongoing since 2011 and he's been rendered into an ensemble character without a strong enough personality to stand out.


I think that's mostly it.

He hasn't had a solo (not even a mini or an out of continuity one) in years.

The team books he has been on since flashpoint have been mostly disliked.

He has barely had any character development and when it comes often from kind of nowhere (change to Drake and back to (Red) Robin, his coming out).

----------


## TheRay

The "Batfamily" does not need to feel or act like an actual family.

----------


## Catlady in training

I like both Tim and Damian (though Damian much more) and I despise the idea that you have to choose one and dislike the other. Fandom rivalries like that are one of the worst things in comicbook fandom and they make a bad name for fans and sadly also for the characters involved. 

It's not a zero sum game, there's no need to feel that your favorite character is going to be treated badly because of another character. Especially in a fandom like Batman where characters already get plenty of attention, as opposed to many other DC characters. We should be more grateful for what we get.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The "Batfamily" does not need to feel or act like an actual family.


I mean, outside of major events, its rare to see more than 2 together anyway. And that's not including them actually getting along. I think Duke and Cass are the only ones not to have aggravated anything bad. Tim suddenly broke it off with Steph after Bendis promised a long relationship (not sure if he ever told her). And the rest have been distant, at best, since Alfred's death.

----------


## Iclifton

> Tim’s the Nickelback of the Batfamily. He ran his course. Being so formulaic and generic just stopped being appealing. As he continues to try to follow the formula of others with this pursuit to establish his Nightwing. His popularity is rooted and dependent on pure nostalgia at this point. He was a generation’s Robin, but new generations became consumers and so he fell off.


Yeah, well that was perfect summary of my feelings for Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> I like both Tim and Damian (though Damian much more) and I despise the idea that you have to choose one and dislike the other. Fandom rivalries like that are one of the worst things in comicbook fandom and they make a bad name for fans and sadly also for the characters involved.


The thing is also that the type of stories Damian has as Robin are so different from the ones Tim had, that there would be imo not really a big problem with both of them coexisting (apparat from the branding problem).

----------


## Lal

> I mean, outside of major events, its rare to see more than 2 together anyway. And that's not including them actually getting along. I think Duke and Cass are the only ones not to have aggravated anything bad. Tim suddenly broke it off with Steph after Bendis promised a long relationship (not sure if he ever told her). And the rest have been distant, at best, since Alfred's death.


I wouldn't say they are distant.
Dick definitely had a meaningful big brother moment with Damian in Robins 5, and the current Nightwing run introduced us to the batfamily group chat and gave us some fun interactions between Dick and Tim.
Barbra and Dick are dating again.
The batgirls are very close in the Batgirls book.
Urban legends 10 gave us another Dick and Tim interaction and big brother advice moment, as well as batfamily on Christmas moments.
Bruce called the Robin's "sons".
The batfamily seem and act more like a family than they have in a long time.

----------


## Tzigone

> duplicate Dicks? DO NOT WANT!  I'd rather have Damian as Nightwing.


I don't want either. It was extremely important that Nightwing was Dick's own thing, and I really don't want it to be a legacy at all (not too much a fan of legacies, anyway, but especially not for that one). And I sure don't want more versions of the same characters we have running around. It's a big lack of originality in a field that's already too crowded.  But I could totally believe DC would do it, given their track record.




> The "Batfamily" does not need to feel or act like an actual family.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I mean, outside of major events, its rare to see more than 2 together anyway.


The big events are kind of the worst for me. First, because I don't much care for events. But secondly, because when it is a event, it's not just dropping by to hang out or teaming up for a fun mission. It often becomes Batman as the commander of the others. Them as subordinates. I think that's a terrible thing - very much steps backward for Dick and Barbara (so long also now) to take them from independent heroes in their own rights to have them as Batman's footsoldiers, taking his orders, fulfilling his goals, etc. Especially on the occasions when he doesn't tell them what's going on and just expect or demands blind obedience.  They are (or at least should be, or have been) so far past that by now. Actually, Barbara never should have been in that dynamic in the first place (I hated her retconned into his protege).  And Tim should be moving past that point, too.  Batman's the big dog in the meta-sense, but in-universe, they should have grown up and become his equals (actually Barbara started grown and just needed to get a little experience).  Especially since he barely has any seniority on Dick in the heroing business in the original timeframe.

----------


## Alan2099

> Especially since he barely has any seniority on Dick in the heroing business in the original timeframe.


On top of that, I'd say Dick has far more team experience than Bruce has.  If anything when they gang gets together, Nightwing should be the one with the battle plans.

----------


## marhawkman

> I don't want either. It was extremely important that Nightwing was Dick's own thing, and I really don't want it to be a legacy at all (not too much a fan of legacies, anyway, but especially not for that one). And I sure don't want more versions of the same characters we have running around. It's a big lack of originality in a field that's already too crowded.  But I could totally believe DC would do it, given their track record.


Funny thing is that Dick is I think the third Nightwing?  But the previous Nightwing was Kal-El.  Soo.... Also 4 of the 6 or so Nightwings have actually been Kryptonians.

So... as a legacy name.... we're more likely to see Lor-Zod use it than one of the other Robins... unless Dick decides to be Batman... then maybe..

----------


## Aahz

> On top of that, I'd say Dick has far more team experience than Bruce has.  If anything when they gang gets together, Nightwing should be the one with the battle plans.


Not really.
Bruce has been on most in carnations of the Justice League (and been occasionally also been a member of other teams like the Outsiders beside that).
And the Justice League has been around longer, and had less long lasting break ups than the Titans.

----------


## Alan2099

> Not really.
> Bruce has been on most in carnations of the Justice League (and been occasionally also been a member of other teams like the Outsiders beside that).
> And the Justice League has been around longer, and had less long lasting break ups than the Titans.


Yeah, but Bruce is the guy on the Justice League that doesn't listen to others and does his own thing.  Nightwing leads his team.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, but Bruce is the guy on the Justice League that doesn't listen to others and does his own thing.  Nightwing leads his team.


I would say it is debatable how much the Titans actually listen to Dick :Cool:

----------


## MajorHoy

> Funny thing is that Dick is I think the third Nightwing?  But the previous Nightwing was Kal-El.  Soo.... Also 4 of the 6 or so Nightwings have actually been Kryptonians.
> 
> So... as a legacy name.... we're more likely to see Lor-Zod use it than one of the other Robins... unless Dick decides to be Batman... then maybe..


Well the "Nightwing" name as a "legacy" can get a bit screwy since Superman (Kal-El) had been first, and then Van-Zee was 2nd, but both those were in the bottle city of Kandor.


Dick first became Nightwing about seven years after Van-Zee did, but then again he was the first to publicly use the Nightwing identity outside of Kandor.

----------


## Iclifton

Another one, I really like Silver St Cloud and think she should be Bruce's main love interests for while.

Also, Hugo Strange is a hugely underrated villain and should be given more focus.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Another one, I really like Silver St Cloud and think she should be Bruce's main love interests for while.
> 
> Also, Hugo Strange is a hugely underrated villain and should be given more focus.


You mean like back in 1977?

----------


## Iclifton

> You mean like back in 1977?


Yup. For some reason that era really clicks for me. I would to see it in a modern setting.

----------


## marhawkman

> Well the "Nightwing" name as a "legacy" can get a bit screwy since Superman (Kal-El) had been first, and then Van-Zee was 2nd, but both those were in the bottle city of Kandor.
> 
> 
> Dick first became Nightwing about seven years after Van-Zee did, but then again he was the first to publicly use the Nightwing identity outside of Kandor.


 true, PG only acted as Nightwing in Kandor as well. Now that I think of it, the only Kryptonian to be Nightwing on Earth was Lor-Zod.  That was a lot later.  Also, Cheyenne Freemont was imitating Dick Grayson.  So yeah...  Dick is pretty much the main one on Earth.

----------


## MajorHoy

> true, PG only acted as Nightwing in Kandor as well. Now that I think of it, the only Kryptonian to be Nightwing on Earth was Lor-Zod.  That was a lot later.  Also, Cheyenne Freemont was imitating Dick Grayson.  So yeah...  Dick is pretty much the main one on Earth.


But, technically wasn't the bottle the bottle city of Kandor was in also "on Earth" (in Superman's Fortress of Solitude)?

----------


## Zaresh

> But, technically wasn't the bottle the bottle city of Kandor was in also "on Earth" (in Superman's Fortress of Solitude)?


And Chris was born in the Phanton Zone, so I don't know if he's technically a kryptonian either. Kind of like Jon in certain ways, even if his parents were both from Krypton.

----------


## marhawkman

> But, technically wasn't the bottle the bottle city of Kandor was in also "on Earth" (in Superman's Fortress of Solitude)?


Yeah, but the general populace of Earth has no idea what goes on inside Kandor.



> And Chris was born in the Phanton Zone, so I don't know if he's technically a kryptonian either. Kind of like Jon in certain ways, even if his parents were both from Krypton.


Enh, Lor-Zod's DNA is 100% Kryptonian, soo...  :Stick Out Tongue:   Yeah yeah, not born on Krypton, knows little of their culture, but still born A Kryptonian.

But anyways, Lor-Zod actually used the Nightwing identity in places like Metropolis.  PG didn't.  So The DC universe's in-universe version of the interenet... would only have info on 3 users of the Night Wing Identity... Dick, Cheyenne, and Lor-Zod.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . So The DC universe's in-universe version of the interenet... would only have info on 3 users of the Night Wing Identity... Dick, Cheyenne, and Lor-Zod.


Nothing on Tad Ryerstad?   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## PCN24454

> Nothing on Tad Ryerstad?


His name is *Nite-*wing; not *Night*wing. It's totally different.

----------


## MajorHoy

> His name is *Nite-*wing; not *Night*wing. It's totally different.


Considering how Google internet searches work ("Did you mean *______________* ?")and considering that marhawkman is spelling Dick's identity as two separate words, not as one


> . . . So The DC universe's in-universe version of the interenet... would only have info on 3 users of the Night Wing Identity... Dick, Cheyenne, and Lor-Zod.


you don't think Tad's "Nite-Wing" might not turn up?   :Confused:

----------


## marhawkman

> Considering how Google internet searches work ("Did you mean *______________* ?")and considering that marhawkman is spelling Dick's identity as two separate words, not as oneyou don't think Tad's "Nite-Wing" might not turn up?


Ok, I forgot that one.  Never read that comic, and for some reason thought it was newer than it actually was.  ok so... maybe 4.  Oh, wait... actually I have.  This is the guy Dick hates for using a similar name.  He tries to be a vigilante, but mostly just beats up random people.  Hmmm Enh, He'd probably get hits.. as being a fake Nightwing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## JediBatman54

Batman villains are more interesting than Bruce Wayne

----------


## daredevil1

Damien outlived his usefulness and is not a really interesting character. If Morrison had just let it go DC as a whole would be in a better place, but because of this one character they were prevented from rebooted the entire DCU from the ground up for New 52. I never found him that interesting, he was like a male child version of Emma Frost who just said "Father!" and "Pennyworth!" all the time instead of having a real personality.

He has way too many Bat-family members that it dilutes the entire point of the brand and makes him look like a ridiculous dick for moping around. We don't need half of them, we don't need any of them. Robin serves somewhat of a purpose since it's tradition but I would honestly just pare it down to Nightwing and maybe Batgirl, and have Bats go solo most of the time.

----------


## Agent Z

> Damien outlived his usefulness and is not a really interesting character. If Morrison had just let it go DC as a whole would be in a better place, but because of this one character they were prevented from rebooted the entire DCU from the ground up for New 52. I never found him that interesting, he was like a male child version of Emma Frost who just said "Father!" and "Pennyworth!" all the time instead of having a real personality.
> 
> He has way too many Bat-family members that it dilutes the entire point of the brand and makes him look like a ridiculous dick for moping around. We don't need half of them, we don't need any of them. Robin serves somewhat of a purpose since it's tradition but I would honestly just pare it down to Nightwing and maybe Batgirl, and have Bats go solo most of the time.


Morrison killed off Damian. DC brought him back.

----------


## TheRay

> I mean, outside of major events, its rare to see more than 2 of them together anyway.


That would make all the complaining about the Batfamily being too large make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

----------


## Agent Z

> That would make all the complaining about the Batfamily being too large make absolutely no sense whatsoever.


It never made any sense to begin with.

----------


## Lal

> It never made any sense to begin with.


It does, as there is a limited number of books / plots / spotlight available for the batfamily, and there is always a competition regarding who gets the limited spotlight.
Moreover, as new characters are added, it's common that their writers try to show how cool they are by comparing them to existing characters and diminishing existing characters (Harper compared to the Robins is just one example). It doesn't usually help either the new character or the existing ones when those things happen.
Also, take into consideration that the batfamily all share similar traits and skillsets, and it's becoming ridiculous to come up with a reason as to why only X could do something when there's literally a horde of other bat characters that could do similar things. It's especially true for the less experienced ones.

There's a reason so many people feel that the batfamily is way overcrowded. Even though the batfamily is getting tons of attention right now, still most characters appear only sporadically and most don't have a solo or a team book. Even batfamily events now don't include the entire batfamily, and instead focus only on some (fear state / shadows of the bats are just two examples). There are just too many to include them all.

----------


## marhawkman

> It does, as there is a limited number of books / plots / spotlight available for the batfamily, and there is always a competition regarding who gets the limited spotlight.
> Moreover, as new characters are added, it's common that their writers try to show how cool they are by comparing them to existing characters and diminishing existing characters (Harper compared to the Robins is just one example). It doesn't usually help either the new character or the existing ones when those things happen.
> Also, take into consideration that the batfamily all share similar traits and skillsets, and it's becoming ridiculous to come up with a reason as to why only X could do something when there's literally a horde of other bat characters that could do similar things. It's especially true for the less experienced ones.
> 
> There's a reason so many people feel that the batfamily is way overcrowded. Even though the batfamily is getting tons of attention right now, still most characters appear only sporadically and most don't have a solo or a team book. Even batfamily events now don't include the entire batfamily, and instead focus only on some (fear state / shadows of the bats are just two examples). There are just too many to include them all.


Part of the wierdity is actually because the Bat-gadgets(like proper batarangs, and those fancy bat-grapples) are super expensive, and thus the Bat-family are actually getting stuff from Bruce in order to be able to use the tools.  Sure... you don't SEE Bruce on the book cover, but.....  in-universe he's still helping them.

----------


## Agent Z

> It does, as there is a limited number of books / plots / spotlight available for the batfamily, and there is always a competition regarding who gets the limited spotlight.
> Moreover, as new characters are added, it's common that their writers try to show how cool they are by comparing them to existing characters and diminishing existing characters (Harper compared to the Robins is just one example). It doesn't usually help either the new character or the existing ones when those things happen.
> Also, take into consideration that the batfamily all share similar traits and skillsets, and it's becoming ridiculous to come up with a reason as to why only X could do something when there's literally a horde of other bat characters that could do similar things. It's especially true for the less experienced ones.
> 
> There's a reason so many people feel that the batfamily is way overcrowded. Even though the batfamily is getting tons of attention right now, still most characters appear only sporadically and most don't have a solo or a team book. Even batfamily events now don't include the entire batfamily, and instead focus only on some (fear state / shadows of the bats are just two examples). There are just too many to include them all.


We don't "need" Batman either. And it's pretty easy to ignore the Batfamily if you want, which makes the endless whining about them even more absurd.

----------


## Lal

> We don't "need" Batman either. And it's pretty easy to ignore the Batfamily if you want, which makes the endless whining about them even more absurd.


Again, there are two problems - 
First, that somehow including new characters leads to them taking traits from existing characters or making existing ones seem incompetent. And it happens all the time. 
For exmple, does Ghost maker really need to be better with computers than Oracle? 

And then there's the problem of creating new characters when so many existing ones are in limbo most of the time or have nothing to do.
Right now the batfamily outgrew the number of characters it can support. Babs became Oracle again not because of character growth this time, but just to give the spotlight to Cass and Steph. 
Huntress and Batwoman are investigating the Arkham tower when Tim has absolutely nothing to do and it's not clear why he isn't one of the detectives investegating it.
And the list goes on and on.

----------


## Godlike13

Its oversaturation. Its a thing, regardless if people want to accept or not. Resources aren't unlimited. And we do need Batman, the industry depends on Batman, and what's more with out Batman and the association with Batman most of Batfamily wouldn't be around.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

The batfamily was doing quite nicely immediately pre-Flashpoint.  The vast majority of characters were being handled well, with Cass being the main exception.  Nearly everyone had a role and a purpose.  The batfamily became much more bloated and oversaturated immediately following the Nu52 reboot, but not because there were more characters.  At first there were fewer characters since some were erased by the reboot.  The problem was the writing became worse and the characters who remained lost their distinctive roles and personalities and became cookie-cutter cutouts of each other.  There was no story or character justification for having 4 Robins.  Even Batgirl became too similar to Batman and lost much of her uniqueness.  Tim got it the worst and if there's one character who should have been erased by the reboot it's him, but it was a universal problem.  Any new character who was created was thrust into this world where everyone was already pretty much the same and the line was oversaturated by cardboard cutouts of each other and bad writing.  This is what makes the glut of the last 10 years so frustrating.  DC has already proven that with the right talent and direction they can balance having so many characters while giving them all distinct personalities and roles, and since the 2011 reboot they just refuse to do it.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing got it the worse. In regards to bloat and oversaturation. His creator level was substantially down graded from the creators he was seeing previous, while his history, connections, and generation was taken and divided up to try and facilitate a role and purpose for the others. Even new characters would poach his color scheme or share in his history. It happed to turn out the worst for Tim though.

----------


## Jackalope89

> *The batfamily was doing quite nicely immediately pre-Flashpoint.*  The vast majority of characters were being handled well, with Cass being the main exception.  Nearly everyone had a role and a purpose.  The batfamily became much more bloated and oversaturated immediately following the Nu52 reboot, but not because there were more characters.  At first there were fewer characters since some were erased by the reboot.  The problem was the writing became worse and the characters who remained lost their distinctive roles and personalities and became cookie-cutter cutouts of each other.  There was no story or character justification for having 4 Robins.  Even Batgirl became too similar to Batman and lost much of her uniqueness.  Tim got it the worst and if there's one character who should have been erased by the reboot it's him, but it was a universal problem.  Any new character who was created was thrust into this world where everyone was already pretty much the same and the line was oversaturated by cardboard cutouts of each other and bad writing.  This is what makes the glut of the last 10 years so frustrating.  DC has already proven that with the right talent and direction they can balance having so many characters while giving them all distinct personalities and roles, and since the 2011 reboot they just refuse to do it.


Er, Jason fans would certainly disagree there.

----------


## Agent Z

> Its oversaturation. Its a thing, regardless if people want to accept or not. Resources aren't unlimited. And we do need Batman, the industry depends on Batman, and what's more with out Batman and the association with Batman most of Batfamily wouldn't be around.


Spider-Man and the X-Men regularly match or outsell Batman. The industry doesn't need him.

----------


## Agent Z

> Again, there are two problems - 
> First, that somehow including new characters leads to them taking traits from existing characters or making existing ones seem incompetent. And it happens all the time. 
> For exmple, does Ghost maker really need to be better with computers than Oracle?


This is a result of DC trying (and failing) to replace Oracle or copy her gimmick. And it isn't just limited to Batfamily characters. They tried to do similar stuff with Cyborg and Hack.




> And then there's the problem of creating new characters when so many existing ones are in limbo most of the time or have nothing to do.
> Right now the batfamily outgrew the number of characters it can support. Babs became Oracle again not because of character growth this time, but just to give the spotlight to Cass and Steph. 
> Huntress and Batwoman are investigating the Arkham tower when Tim has absolutely nothing to do and it's not clear why he isn't one of the detectives investegating it.
> And the list goes on and on.


Most of these aren't new characters. Cass and Steph have been around since the 90s, and Huntress is from the 80s.

----------


## Godlike13

> Spider-Man and the X-Men regularly match or outsell Batman. The industry doesn't need him.


Spider-Man and X-Men don’t sell so well that they would cover for taking Batman out of the market. The effects it would have on DC, and the market in general would be insurmountable.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

It's definitely not a good thing that DC needs the Batman IP as much as they do at this point. They've put most of their eggs in one basket. But yeah, they need him and have nothing to fall back if they were to lose him. It's at least partially a problem of their own making, but it is what it is. 

We also objectively need Batman himself more than the majority of his extended family. He is the brand itself and the rest use that to gain traction they otherwise wouldn't if they were born out of any other brand of the DCU. The various adaptations that have few (if any) Bat-Family members also prove that Batman's story probably needs his villains more than most of his allies.

----------


## Agent Z

> We also objectively need Batman himself more than the majority of his extended family. He is the brand itself and the rest use that to gain traction they otherwise wouldn't if they were born out of any other brand of the DCU. The various adaptations that have few (if any) Bat-Family members also prove that Batman's story probably needs his villains more than most of his allies.


That doesn't prove anything other than the people adapting them either don't want to use the Bat family as much or are prevented from using them.

----------


## Agent Z

> Spider-Man and X-Men don’t sell so well that they would cover for taking Batman out of the market. The effects it would have on DC, and the market in general would be insurmountable.


It would have an effect on DC. The rest of the market is another matter given how well Marvel outsells DC on a regular basis.

----------


## Godlike13

> It would have an effect on DC. The rest of the market is another matter given how well Marvel outsells DC on a regular basis.


It’s not another matter. DC is still the second biggest publisher in the market, and makes up a big chunk of the market. You are severely underappreciating DC and Batman’s place in the comic book market.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> That doesn't prove anything other than the people adapting them either don't want to use the Bat family as much or are prevented from using them.


Batman's been around for 80 odd years. Most of the Bat-Family are relative Johnny Come Latelys who only comic nerds know, and Batman gains most of his popularity from his outside media where the most well known and popular of his supporting characters are the ones who have been with him since almost the beginning. 

The fact that so many versions exist with a streamlined or no Bat-Family and still do well and feel "complete" means he as a character is needed, but most of the rest are pretty interchangeable or not needed for everything. Even something like Batman Beyond needed Bruce around in some capacity to take off. Them being barred from specific uses means there are certain stories where they may be needed, but across the entire board, Bruce is the #1 necessity.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> It’s not another matter. DC is still the second biggest publisher in the market, and makes up a big chunk of the market. *You are severely underappreciating DC and Batman’s place in the comic book market*.


No he's not. 

How many bins, grab bags, clearance sales and discounted books star the Bat family?

Not everybody who goes to a comic book store is buying Batman. 

We confuse that 100K on comicchron with books BOUGHT by a person.

We let the gators focus the unsold books of POC and not the way LARGER pile of Batman (X-Men and Spidey too) leaves.

We ignore the covered in DUST editions of the first printing of Batman Long Night or Hush or Death in the Family as newer volumes get made.

We ignore the fact that second printings are for book sold to stores NOT copies bought by customers.

It's not Batman needs to be removed it's store owners need to order copies that SELL OUT every copy. 100k ordered and only 90k sold doesn't help the store.


Now if we look on Amazon trades.....

Dc would NOT exist without Bat titles. Because aside from Beast Boy and those OGNs-folks are ignoring DC. Now that is why he has 60 new trades and the only other DC person in double digits is Superman with 10. Marvel has 3 brands with over 20-Panther, Spider-Man and X-Men.

----------


## Godlike13

> No he's not. 
> 
> How many bins, grab bags, clearance sales and discounted books star the Bat family?
> 
> Not everybody who goes to a comic book store is buying Batman. 
> 
> We confuse that 100K on comicchron with books BOUGHT by a person.
> 
> We let the gators focus the unsold books of POC and not the way LARGER pile of Batman (X-Men and Spidey too) leaves.
> ...


Order management is each stores own responsibility. Generally speaking Batman can afford leftovers cause of how much sheer product he still moves. The market relies on DC and Batman. This is common knowledge.  Everyone might not buy him, but a lot do nevertheless. And shops see him as a safe buy because of his general appeal. Amazon trades seems to reflect the same story. DC needs Batman, and the comic book market needs DC.

----------


## TheRay

More human characters who do nothing but just help the hero do what they do couldn't hurt.

----------


## phonogram12

> Spider-Man and X-Men don’t sell so well that they would cover for taking Batman out of the market. The effects it would have on DC, and the market in general would be insurmountable.


Not to mention the box office.

----------


## TheRay

I'd give Orphan and Spoiler their own books.

----------


## phantom1592

> More human characters who do nothing but just help the hero do what they do couldn't hurt.


Ehhhh... disagree. I find that it hurts a LOT. 

I remember when Batman was 'the world's greatest detective'. He was the guy who knew all the facts, had the lockpicking skills, used his chemistry lab, basically DID the stuff that made him a hero. 

Then they brought in characters like Alfred working on the Batmobile, Lucius designing his tech, Oracle hacking all the computer info and feeding Batman all the answers to the clues and overriding all the doors he came across... It got to the point where punching people and being a jerk was the only thing Batman was doing for himself... and yeah, I find that hurt him a LOT. 

CW's Flash is another example. He's running around trying to fight bad guys and there's a whole team of humans sitting around the computer doing his math, telling him to use his speed, and doing all his thinking to the point that he's really just a figurehead in his own show.

----------


## TheRay

I think its fine that some of the teams dont feel like a family. I think its interesting to see conflict and how they would actually behave in a team setting with each other. Maybe some heroes just cant be on a team together, but they have to for some reason or another and they get alone with each other after awhile, but they dont become as close as a family.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Ehhhh... disagree. I find that it hurts a LOT. 
> 
> I remember when Batman was 'the world's greatest detective'. He was the guy who knew all the facts, had the lockpicking skills, used his chemistry lab, basically DID the stuff that made him a hero. 
> 
> Then they brought in characters like Alfred working on the Batmobile, Lucius designing his tech, Oracle hacking all the computer info and feeding Batman all the answers to the clues and overriding all the doors he came across... It got to the point where punching people and being a jerk was the only thing Batman was doing for himself... and yeah, I find that hurt him a LOT. 
> 
> CW's Flash is another example. He's running around trying to fight bad guys and there's a whole team of humans sitting around the computer doing his math, telling him to use his speed, and doing all his thinking to the point that he's really just a figurehead in his own show.


You know, I never really thought about how having a big family affects Batman! But you are absolutely right. Batman definately lost some of his best skillset when they decided to make the batfam even bigger. A big one I never thought about was the fact that Oracle and Batman were essentially the same person for a while post-zero hour. I guess this is largely where the babs is female Bruce comes from. 

I think the batfamily should have just been Batman and a Robin. Batman mythos is just really bloated. fOnce Dick became Nightwing, he should have either joined another characters little world or DC should have let him become a corner of the universe himself. Same with Batgirl. Its why I firmly believe the best thing for her as well is to be somewhat separate from Batman and have a side cast that is more outside the batfamily. 

Babs, she could easily have supergirl, Jason bard, Ted Kord, black canary and Orphan as part of her world! While I dont see batgirl ever leaving Gotham, as thats her home, she can operate separately from Batman like how Black Canary is with Green Arrow.

Basically, Dick, Helena, Tim and Stephanie should leave Gotham for good and do their own things. Babs, Kate, Damian Jason and Bruce can stay in Gotham. This way we have room for more side characters not apart of the batfamily and then we also get to see the batfam characters occupy a significant part of the other DC mythos.

----------


## JediBatman54

The Gotham tv show is underrated i dont like the two Jokers idea but love Jeremiah Valeska he should have been the show Joker also loved Penguin Riddler and Selina

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I liked the Batpack and hope they stick around after TA wraps up.

Jace is my favorite legacy character of the past decade but putting him in the DCU feels like a mistake. I rather he and the other future state legacies be on Earth One.

----------


## Agent Z

> Ehhhh... disagree. I find that it hurts a LOT. 
> 
> I remember when Batman was 'the world's greatest detective'. He was the guy who knew all the facts, had the lockpicking skills, used his chemistry lab, basically DID the stuff that made him a hero. 
> 
> Then they brought in characters like Alfred working on the Batmobile, Lucius designing his tech, Oracle hacking all the computer info and feeding Batman all the answers to the clues and overriding all the doors he came across... It got to the point where punching people and being a jerk was the only thing Batman was doing for himself... and yeah, I find that hurt him a LOT. 
> 
> CW's Flash is another example. He's running around trying to fight bad guys and there's a whole team of humans sitting around the computer doing his math, telling him to use his speed, and doing all his thinking to the point that he's really just a figurehead in his own show.


None of these things take away from being a detective. Being a detective isn't about knowing all the facts or not needing help. 

Likewise, people vastly overstate how much "thinking" everyone else does for Barry.

----------


## shadow6743

I think Adam Glass' Teen Titans book is a good Teen Titans book. But, not a good book if you at all like Damian to have any character growth at all. I throught the cast was great and had a lot of potential. It was written in a way to focus on relationships which is how I think the best Titans runs are written. Everyone grows except for Damian to the point I almost feel like someone told Glass to write Damian that way, only to have this character change explained in a Flash book by Williamson. 

I think Adam Glass knows how to write a good Teen Titans run. However, I don't know if he knows how to write Damian Wayne well. If you don't like or care about Damian you could enjoy the story in its entirely.

----------


## TheRay

Batman can be multifaceted. There's no need for there to be only one way Bruce Wayne works as a concept.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I think Adam Glass' Teen Titans book is a good Teen Titans book. But, not a good book if you at all like Damian to have any character growth at all. I throught the cast was great and had a lot of potential. It was written in a way to focus on relationships which is how I think the best Titans runs are written. Everyone grows except for Damian to the point I almost feel like someone told Glass to write Damian that way, only to have this character change explained in a Flash book by Williamson. 
> 
> I think Adam Glass knows how to write a good Teen Titans run. However, I don't know if he knows how to write Damian Wayne well. If you don't like or care about Damian you could enjoy the story in its entirely.


This isn't a controversial or an opinion.

We all know that The man was literally mandated to write a run that force Damian down a dark path and force him out of the Robin mantle.

We all saw the instagram posts that Adam posted just before he left the book where he clarified about that the decision to take robin from Damian was made before he even came on the title and he said that his was told to take his 2 steps back.

We all know about the plans to make Damian the big bad of 5G which was what the Tt's run and LOSH was building towards. 

Glass was paid to do a job and he did the job he was paid to do. 
Sadly it's common in comics to twist characters to suit the plot or future plans of the company.

----------


## John Venus

> None of these things take away from being a detective. Being a detective isn't about knowing all the facts or not needing help. 
> 
> Likewise, people vastly overstate how much "thinking" everyone else does for Barry.


It does make the writers lazy though. Why have Batman figure things out himself when he could just ring up Oracle and have her do things for him.   

I agree that writers often resort to crutches when writing Batman. It's easy to write him as an out of control borderline thug who beats people up to feel better than it is to write him as a smart, capable individual whose greatest asset is his mind, body and will. The other end of the spectrum is writers getting so caught up in the 'Bat God' thing that they don't bother showing him figuring out how to escape death traps, he just does it because 'he's Batman' or he can pull out a random gadget to defeat the League but it only works because the rest of the League are too stupid to use their powers (which is often not the case because even in their own titles they're shown as powerful and capable on their own).

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Batman can be multifaceted. There's no need for there to be only one way Bruce Wayne works as a concept.


Yeah, but if Batman is multifaceted, what will the other batfamily do? /eyeroll

----------


## TheRay

Go off and die apparently /s

----------


## witchboy

> The Gotham tv show is underrated i dont like the two Jokers idea but love Jeremiah Valeska he should have been the show Joker also loved Penguin Riddler and Selina


I LOVE Gotham. They did a great job developing all the main characters. I was highly skeptical of a prequel without Batman, but it worked. 
I still think there was potential for a spin off set during the gap years in the finale starring Selina.

----------


## phonogram12

Per a controversial opinion I posted earlier in this thread.

https://www.cbr.com/the-joker-deserv...hat-kills-him/

----------


## NK1988

Batman's best movies are all animated and no live-action version comes close to these.

And Under the Red Hood is the best Batman movie period. I love and respect the DCAU, Mask of the Phantasm and Return of the Joker are fantastic, but I love the story in Red Hood. Everybody pulls it off perfectly and I hate that Jason Todd has never had a consistent VA. Jensen Ackles should have become a Kevin Conroy Batman/Mark Hamill Joker level staple.

I need to pick up Rh's comics again.

----------


## marhawkman

controversial? Well I think the Bat-Blackrock story would make a good movie.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Micael

"Old man batman" has become the new "Evil Superman"

----------


## Fire Angel

I don't think there needs to be a Batgirl and Batwoman at the same time.

----------


## MajorHoy

Would it be controversial to say that after the first three issues, I'm not impressed by Williamson's run on *Batman*?

----------


## phonogram12

> Would it be controversial to say that after the first three issues, I'm not impressed by Williamson's run on *Batman*?


I think he's a fine writer, personally. I just don't particularly care for his Batman run. It seems like ever since King's run ended, they've really tried to steer this book back into a more traditional superhero direction. Which is fine, but I just found most of the post-King stuff rather uninspiring. Tynion seemed to only really do it to create a bunch of new characters in the hopes of them being used in other media so as to get a hefty pay day (which I can't honestly blame him for since most comic book writers get paid next to nothing). From what I've heard, his Dept. of Truth book is absolutely fantastic, so if I had to guess, that's where most of his passion was.

----------


## NK1988

Ya know, I never really thought about it until all my Batman discussions in the last week, but I think the reason I have always loved Batman Beyond and even preferred it to BLTAS is that it's a "Bat Family" story by its very nature. Terry is our main protagonist who, yes, needs guidance from the older Batman in matters of superheroing, but he in turn gives Bruce guidance in how to live and finally find peace.
 And that's also why Under the Red Hood is my favorite Batman film. Our two  leads need each other, both to make the story better and to make each other better.

 When discussing elsewhere why I don't like Dark Knight Rises, I noted it's because in Rises Batman just saves himself. In the DCAU, Batman would have died alone and miserable if not for Terry. Jason is also heading to an ugly and bitter end without Bruce. I guess I just prefer stories that aren't centered entirely on Bruce. Alone, he is nothing; a sad wreck of a human being. The only hope any of them have is with each other. The original comic Under the Red Hood I'm reading right now has Alfred himself make a point on this, abut how different and better Bruce is when he has a partner.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Ya know, I never really thought about it until all my Batman discussions in the last week, but I think the reason I have always loved Batman Beyond and even preferred it to BLTAS is that it's a "Bat Family" story by its very nature. Terry is our main protagonist who, yes, needs guidance from the older Batman in matters of superheroing, but he in turn gives Bruce guidance in how to live and finally find peace.
>  And that's also why Under the Red Hood is my favorite Batman film. Our two  leads need each other, both to make the story better and to make each other better.
> 
>  When discussing elsewhere why I don't like Dark Knight Rises, I noted it's because in Rises Batman just saves himself. In the DCAU, Batman would have died alone and miserable if not for Terry. *Jason is also heading to an ugly and bitter end without Bruce.* I guess I just prefer stories that aren't centered entirely on Bruce. Alone, he is nothing; a sad wreck of a human being. The only hope any of them have is with each other. The original comic Under the Red Hood I'm reading right now has Alfred himself make a point on this, abut how different and better Bruce is when he has a partner.


Uh, what was the last thing with Jason you've read?

----------


## NK1988

> Uh, what was the last thing with Jason you've read?


? I was talking about the animated adaptations. I am reading Under the Red Hood right now but I just used that to supplement the movie version.

----------


## Jackalope89

> ? I was talking about the animated adaptations. I am reading Under the Red Hood right now but I just used that to supplement the movie version.


Movie version cuts out a lot of stuff that really only serves as filler. But it also cut out a few other things, some of which has been added to Jason's lore since it was made. But one thing to note; in the comics, Jason came alive on his own (the Superboy Prime punch is up in the air for being canon) and dug his way out of his own grave.

----------


## mathew101281

> I don't think there needs to be a Batgirl and Batwoman at the same time.


Why? They arent really all that similar other then being female?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I don't care for Robin as a concept anymore. I don't mind Batman having a partner for support, I just don't need Robin as a way to fill that need.

----------


## MajorHoy

Don't know if/how many times we've already had this, but . . . 

*I don't like Dick and Barbara as a couple.
It almost feels like "bat-incest".*

----------


## dietrich

> I don't care for Robin as a concept anymore. I don't mind Batman having a partner for support, I just don't need Robin as a way to fill that need.


The more one thinks about it Robin is an awful concept. What type of hero endangers kids in his care? Batman should be safeguarding children. keeping them far from violent and dangerous situations not giving them costumes and exposing them to even more danger and violence.

batman should partner with meta's or older allies.

I say this as someone whose favourite characters are Robins.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> The more one thinks about it Robin is an awful concept. What type of hero endangers kids in his care? Batman should be safeguarding children. keeping them far from violent and dangerous situations not giving them costumes and exposing them to even more danger and violence.
> 
> batman should partner with meta's or older allies.
> 
> I say this as someone whose favourite characters are Robins.


Robin works more as a kid appeal character. So putting them in a cartoon like Ben 10 makes more sense than what these comics are going for.

I'm apprehensive of them popping up in Reeves's take. I rather avoid them and use Bronze Tiger, Onyx, Orpheus etc.

----------


## phonogram12

> Don't know if/how many times we've already had this, but . . . 
> 
> *I don't like Dick and Barbara as a couple.
> It almost feels like "bat-incest".*


Very few writers can make this work for me. No matter how much Dixon tried, he could never convince me of it. Taylor is one of the few who can.

----------


## TravelerInTheDark

I have little to no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers". The simple reason is their existence stems from fan demand. It is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins, treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).

----------


## millernumber1

> I have little to no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers". The simple reason is their existence stems from fan demand. It is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins, treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).


Well said.

----------


## dietrich

> * no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers" is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins
> 
> treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike)*.


DC creatives seem to have forgotten this.

After Jason's death the dynamic between Batman and his Robins hasn't been Positive.

----------


## phantom1592

> I have little to no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers". The simple reason is their existence stems from fan demand. It is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins, treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).


Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore. 

They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them. 

Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters. 

I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over. 

Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.

----------


## Lal

> Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore. 
> 
> They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them. 
> 
> Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters. 
> 
> I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over. 
> 
> Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.


While it could mostly be said about Dick, Jason and Damian, that's not really helping Tim's case. He was perfectly fine before becoming Robin, and being Robin objectively ruined his life and got his father killed.

----------


## phantom1592

> While it could mostly be said about Dick, Jason and Damian, that's not really helping Tim's case. He was perfectly fine before becoming Robin, and being Robin objectively ruined his life and got his father killed.


True, but his mother was killed and his father crippled none of which was involved with Batman or his being Robin. he was still training in the cave at the time.  His trauma was just a little late in coming, but Batman was still there to help him deal with it 'right'.

----------


## Lal

> True, but his mother was killed and his father crippled none of which was involved with Batman or his being Robin. he was still training in the cave at the time.  His trauma was just a little late in coming, but Batman was still there to help him deal with it 'right'.


I'm not sure that's right. Tim had friends and family and social life that he loved. When he became Robin he gradually lost all of them, and by his RR run he was in a very, very bad place. Objectively, Tim's life would have been significantly better if he never met Bruce or became Robin, not like Dick who would become a Talon, Jason a criminal and Damian Ra's.

----------


## Agent Z

> Ya know, I never really thought about it until all my Batman discussions in the last week, but I think the reason I have always loved Batman Beyond and even preferred it to BLTAS is that it's a "Bat Family" story by its very nature. Terry is our main protagonist who, yes, needs guidance from the older Batman in matters of superheroing, but he in turn gives Bruce guidance in how to live and finally find peace.
>  And that's also why Under the Red Hood is my favorite Batman film. Our two  leads need each other, both to make the story better and to make each other better.
> 
>  When discussing elsewhere why I don't like Dark Knight Rises, I noted it's because in Rises Batman just saves himself. In the DCAU, Batman would have died alone and miserable if not for Terry. Jason is also heading to an ugly and bitter end without Bruce. I guess I just prefer stories that aren't centered entirely on Bruce. Alone, he is nothing; a sad wreck of a human being. The only hope any of them have is with each other. The original comic Under the Red Hood I'm reading right now has Alfred himself make a point on this, abut how different and better Bruce is when he has a partner.


Bruce didn't save himself in Rises. He needed the help of one of the prisoners of the Pit and even after that needed to be saved from Bane by Catwoman.

----------


## phantom1592

> I'm not sure that's right. Tim had friends and family and social life that he loved. When he became Robin he gradually lost all of them, and by his RR run he was in a very, very bad place. Objectively, Tim's life would have been significantly better if he never met Bruce or became Robin, not like Dick who would become a Talon, Jason a criminal and Damian Ra's.


Impossible to know, and honestly it would depend on the writer. However at his core, His parents were always off on globe trotting adventures leaving their son behind who was entirely too smart and clever for his age. 

He had friends and a social life sure... but if Bruce was never involved with his life... than Batman wouldn't have been investigating Tim's parents kidnapping and been able to save at least ONE of his parents. 

So yeah, Smart kid who's parents kind of neglected him until they were kidnapped and murdered in a foreign country....  Supervillain origins have had less than that. Not even counting that he's in Gotham. Two things we know about Gotham.  1) You'll probably earn some kind of doctorate... and 2) Odds are REALLY high of becoming a criminal :P

Tim was a pretty proactive kid, figuring out Bruces' identity and taking on himself to 'fix' Bruce and Dick's relationship... If he hadn't become Robin and his parents were killed and he got their fortune and time on his hands without his Robin activities focusing him... Things could have gotten ugly. 


On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague? If so that would be another strike against him without Batman to focus him... All that crap was still happening to him whetehr he was Robin or not.

----------


## Agent Z

> Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore. 
> 
> They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them. 
> 
> Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters. 
> 
> I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over. 
> 
> Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.


Dick is questionable at best and with Jason, Bruce himself has stated that making him Robin wasn't necessarily a good way to deal with his anger. One need only look at the Red Hood situation. 

It's questionable if being Batman did Bruce any good himself.




> True, but his mother was killed and his father crippled none of which was involved with Batman or his being Robin. he was still training in the cave at the time.  His trauma was just a little late in coming, but Batman was still there to help him deal with it 'right'.


Tim's father's death absolutely was due to him being Robin. The only reason he was killed was because Jean Loring knew he was Robin and wanted to strike out against the heroes' loved ones.

----------


## phantom1592

> Tim's father's death absolutely was due to him being Robin. The only reason he was killed was because Jean Loring knew he was Robin and wanted to strike out against the heroes' loved ones.


For sure. But if not for being Robin his dad would have died years earlier. So depends on how you look at things. Either being Robin got him killed, or being Robin gave them a lot of extra time before death caught up with him again. 

It's a classic 'What if/elseworlds' setup. If Tim was never Robin, Jack wouldn't have been killed in Identity Crisis in 2004... He would have been sacrificed in Haiti back in 1990.

----------


## Restingvoice

Being a superhero comes with a risk. A villain finding out your identity is one of them. But it also comes with perks. The skill to save innocents including your family. After that it's up to each person to reflect on what's best.
Like the times Spiderman's No More

----------


## skyvolt2000

> On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague? If so that would be another strike against him without Batman to focus him... All that crap was still happening to him whetehr he was Robin or not.


Pretty much New 52 and the desire for everyone to NOT have private lives took out a lot of supporting casts for many. Especially the Tim Drake generation.

----------


## godisawesome

> Pretty much New 52 and the desire for everyone to NOT have private lives took out a lot of supporting casts for many. Especially the Tim Drake generation.


I always felt the New 52 treatment of Tim’s parents was arguably the worst , since they’d been resurrected but were just as absent as if they’d been dead, with Tim still being a control freak type of character. What’s the point of bringing them back if you’re keeping the RR characterization for him so much that they don’t matter? That’s just removing what pathos and motivation there was to justify that characterization. If they’re back, they should be part of his story and his mental health should be as expected. Of his mental health is portrayed as worn down and flawed and they’re not interacting with him, then they should probably stay dead.

Now, I think the Witness Protection Agency idea has some merit, but I still think you’d want to make it and the pressure it puts on Tim a constant presence, and have him constantly sneaking off to see them.

----------


## dietrich

> Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore. 
> 
> They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them. 
> 
> Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters. 
> 
> I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over. 
> 
> Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.



How many times has Robin been killed? Robin has a shit track record and Bruce has a poor track record with young people he recruits.

So far only one Robin has been successful. Dick Grayson. He is the sole success. Damian could be considered a success but he is still a work on progress and he started out as a killer.

Tim was a failure [ privileged kid with a bright future - insecure directionless orphan and a future fascist killer vigilante] That is a fail

jason was a failure [street Rat who was chugging along - time with Batman resulted in his brutal death and he returned a tortured killer with Bruce issues] that is a failure

Steph was a failure [solo hero becomes Robin and then she dies]

Duke is a success but he isn't a Robin[he was trained by Bruce to be something else. Something not Robin]

Why are people on here so forgetful or are we just fudging the facts to reflect whatever we want?


Bruce didn't recruit child soldiers but he is using children as soldiers. They are fighting and bleeding in his war.

Bruce didn't prevent future supervillains via Robin unless you are talking about Damian. He is the only Robin that was on track to become a supervillain but has since become a hero.

however that one win is counter by

1 future supervillain [Tim Drake]
One current villain [Jason Todd]

----------


## dietrich

> Impossible to know, and honestly it would depend on the writer. However at his core, His parents were always off on globe trotting adventures leaving their son behind who was entirely too smart and clever for his age. 
> 
> He had friends and a social life sure... but if Bruce was never involved with his life... than Batman wouldn't have been investigating Tim's parents kidnapping and been able to save at least ONE of his parents. 
> 
> So yeah, Smart kid who's parents kind of neglected him until they were kidnapped and murdered in a foreign country....  Supervillain origins have had less than that. Not even counting that he's in Gotham. Two things we know about Gotham.  1) You'll probably earn some kind of doctorate... and 2) Odds are REALLY high of becoming a criminal :P
> 
> Tim was a pretty proactive kid, figuring out Bruces' identity and taking on himself to 'fix' Bruce and Dick's relationship... If he hadn't become Robin and his parents were killed and he got their fortune and time on his hands without his Robin activities focusing him... Things could have gotten ugly. 
> 
> 
> On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague? If so that would be another strike against him without Batman to focus him... All that crap was still happening to him whetehr he was Robin or not.


That or he could have become a human rights advocate using his parents fortunes to improve the lives of people on gotham]

Funding better prisons with the focus on Rehabilitation not punishment [like the ones in some parts of Europe]

Used his inheritance to fund organisations that safeguard tourists overseas.

like you said Tim was a smart kid and before batman he didn't know how to punch good forcing him to use his brain muscles.

He could have just as easily become a humanitarian.

----------


## marhawkman

Controversial? a lot of Bat-characters will never be used as main characters and will always be supporting since they're, well... just not that interesting?

----------


## JediBatman54

Most of the Live Action Batman and Joker are not comic accurate but that not prevent them in being good
the most accurate comic Batman and Joker is Ben Affleck and Jack Nicholson Joker

----------


## Restingvoice

> Controversial? a lot of Bat-characters will never be used as main characters and will always be supporting since they're, well... just not that interesting?


Kinda, yeah, even if some people find a character interesting, other people don't find them interesting, and the number of interested buyers are not high enough to support a series

----------


## JediBatman54

All the different Universes and Elseworlds from comics tv shows and movies are valid there is not a definitive Batman 
Batman could be operating in 1940s, today age or in distant future and is still be Batman

----------


## MajorHoy

> All the different Universes and Elseworlds from comics tv shows and movies are valid there is not a definitive Batman 
> *Batman could be operating in 1940s*, today age or in distant future and is still be Batman


I'd love to see DC put out a *Batman* comic book set in 1939/1940 before Robin (Dick) enters, but I know that is unlikely to happen.   :Frown:

----------


## Agent Z

> How many times has Robin been killed? Robin has a shit track record and Bruce has a poor track record with young people he recruits.
> 
> So far only one Robin has been successful. Dick Grayson. He is the sole success. Damian could be considered a success but he is still a work on progress and he started out as a killer.
> 
> Tim was a failure [ privileged kid with a bright future - insecure directionless orphan and a future fascist killer vigilante] That is a fail
> 
> jason was a failure [street Rat who was chugging along - time with Batman resulted in his brutal death and he returned a tortured killer with Bruce issues] that is a failure
> 
> Steph was a failure [solo hero becomes Robin and then she dies]
> ...


Using the fact that there is a potential future where Tim becomes a villain againt him is disingenuous. It would be like using that bad future in Rebirth Titans against Dick.

Also, Robin's only been killed twice and Steph was a vigilante on her own. She wasn't recruited to become Spoiler by Bruce and was actually pretty effective without him.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd love to see DC put out a *Batman* comic book set in 1939/1940 before Robin (Dick) enters, but I know that is unlikely to happen.


I'm still not sure what's happening with that Linear-verse or whatever it was.

----------


## Vakanai

Here's a couple of controversial opinions here.

1. I don't want Robin showing up in The Batman sequels. Save the Batfamily for the DCEU and Keaton's Batman.

2. I love the Burnside costume for Barbara and hope she keeps it for the whole first Batgirl movie.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What's the appeal of burnside it seems very bright for a family all about staying in the dark

----------


## Vakanai

> What's the appeal of burnside it seems very bright for a family all about staying in the dark


Robin doesn't wear dark colors either, but people love it too.

----------


## Vakanai

> Also, Robin's only been killed twice


I mean, some would argue just the once was bad enough...

----------


## MajorHoy

> Robin doesn't wear dark colors either, but people love it too.


I would clarify that by saying Damian's Robin _does_ tend to wear darker colors, and even the earliest Robin outfits Dick wore as Robin have turned much darker in revised continuity.

But originally, Dick (and Jason) as Robin did favor brighter colors, bare legs, and pixie boots!

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> What's the appeal of burnside it seems very bright for a family all about staying in the dark


It's a good and functional design and fits a younger demo/lighter tone. Not really kids but more teens and college students.

So the upcoming Batgirl film would benefit having a lighter tone than Batman.

----------


## Vakanai

> I would clarify that by saying Damian's Robin _does_ tend to wear darker colors, and even the earliest Robin outfits Dick wore as Robin have turned much darker in revised continuity.
> 
> But originally, Dick (and Jason) as Robin did favor brighter colors, bare legs, and pixie boots!


Another controversial opinion: I never want to see the bare legs and pixie boots acknowledged in modern continuities.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Controversial? a lot of Bat-characters will never be used as main characters and will always be supporting since they're, well... just not that interesting?


Restingvoice is probably right about the commercial reasons but from a creative standpoint I disagree.

Because you get a good writer to give a pitch and DC has a ton of new imprints they can shine in.

----------


## marhawkman

> Restingvoice is probably right about the commercial reasons but from a creative standpoint I disagree.
> 
> Because you get a good writer to give a pitch and DC has a ton of new imprints they can shine in.


Sure, in-theory they COULD be.  but they haven't, and probably won't.

----------


## PCN24454

> Kinda, yeah, even if some people find a character interesting, other people don't find them interesting, and the number of interested buyers are not high enough to support a series


Its the issue with starting out as a supporting character.

Dick will never be able to leave the shadow of being Batmans sidekick.

----------


## PCN24454

“Batman isn’t a character but a concept” is the stupidest reason to make Cassandra into THE Batman.

----------


## Robanker

> Another controversial opinion: I never want to see the bare legs and pixie boots acknowledged in modern continuities.


That's it. Pistols at dawn, sir.

The classic costume is the only one I accept for Dick. I can see everyone after using leggings, but he's gotta rock the pixie boots.




> I'd love to see DC put out a *Batman* comic book set in 1939/1940 before Robin (Dick) enters, but I know that is unlikely to happen.


I didn't read it because I don't like Azzarello, but you may want to check out the short-lived _First Wave_ imprint.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . I didn't read it because I don't like Azzarello, but you may want to check out the short-lived _First Wave_ imprint.


I think I picked up a couple of issues in the $1 bin, but I seem to remember Azzarello taking a few too many liberties with characters for my preference.

----------


## Vakanai

> That's it. Pistols at dawn, sir.
> 
> The classic costume is the only one I accept for Dick. I can see everyone after using leggings, but he's gotta rock the pixie boots.


I just can't ever see the bare legs and pixie boots look and accept it as something that happened in the last fifty years. It dates Dick to the 1930s/40s/50s. Either he's pushing 100 years old in continuity and has been taking dips in the Lazarus Pit, or he did a Captain America and was frozen for about 60-70 years. But he can't both be from a time when that look was acceptable and be as young as he's supposed to be.

----------


## MajorHoy

> *I just can't ever see the bare legs and pixie boots look and accept it as something that happened in the last fifty years*. It dates Dick to the 1930s/40s/50s. Either he's pushing 100 years old in continuity and has been taking dips in the Lazarus Pit, or he did a Captain America and was frozen for about 60-70 years. But he can't both be from a time when that look was acceptable and be as young as he's supposed to be.


Last "fifty years"?   :Confused:  

Tim was the first Robin to regularly wear an altered Robin outfit (not counting _pre-CoIE_ adult Dick Grayson on Earth-2), but that wasn't until late 1990 (which isn't even 35 years ago yet).

----------


## Vakanai

> Last "fifty years"?   
> 
> Tim was the first Robin to regularly wear an altered Robin outfit (not counting _pre-CoIE_ adult Dick Grayson on Earth-2), but that wasn't until late 1990 (which isn't even 35 years ago yet).


Oh I know - my point is that they were terribly outdated at least fifty years ago, long before they were ever replaced. I mean Batman and Superman still wear trunks too and that was ridiculously outdated decades ago too. But that's another controversial opinion.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . I mean Batman and Superman still wear trunks too and that was ridiculously outdated decades ago too. But that's another controversial opinion.


Unless he has a black / much darker gray bodysuit, Batman needs the dark trunks for color contrast.

Otherwise, his out fit resembles Super Goof's or the original Red Tornado . . . looking too much like the long underwear with the "trapdoor" in the back.

----------


## Vakanai

> Unless he has a black / much darker gray bodysuit, Batman needs the dark trunks for color contrast.
> 
> Otherwise, his out fit resembles Super Goof's or the original Red Tornado . . . looking too much like the long underwear with the "trapdoor" in the back.


Controversial opinion here, but I agree to disagree. :Stick Out Tongue: 
Sorry, but even risking looking like "long underwear" is still better than looking like "underwear on outside the pants" and nothing is going to convince me that they look like.

----------


## phonogram12

I've been really disappointed about the gradual phasing out of the OG Robin costume that's been occurring since the Nu 52 started. I realize it's only happened sporadically, but whenever it's been used post-Rebirth I couldn't be happier.

----------


## Vakanai

> Last "fifty years"?   
> 
> Tim was the first Robin to regularly wear an altered Robin outfit (not counting _pre-CoIE_ adult Dick Grayson on Earth-2), but that wasn't until late 1990 (which isn't even 35 years ago yet).


Oh just to clear my point, when I said I couldn't accept it as something that happened in the last 50 years+, I wasn't talking about actual comics history but the modern sliding scale continuity. As in I can't see a Dick Grayson Robin OG costume be in continuity when in continuity Dick isn't some elderly 70+ year old man. Like if the sliding time scale has him as Robin roughly 15-20 years ago, then bare legs and pixie boots make no sense. They are just too clearly tied to a long ago bygone era. At least to me.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Oh just to clear my point, when I said I couldn't accept it as something that happened in the last 50 years+, I wasn't talking about actual comics history but the modern sliding scale continuity. As in I can't see a Dick Grayson Robin OG costume be in continuity when in continuity Dick isn't some elderly 70+ year old man. Like if the sliding time scale has him as Robin roughly 15-20 years ago, then bare legs and pixie boots make no sense. They are just too clearly tied to a long ago bygone era. At least to me.



That was a fun issue . . .

----------


## Adekis

I think Vakanai is kinda right about Dick's bare legs / sheer leggings. Let's say Dick Grayson is thirty-five years old in 2022. That's... older than I think most people think he is, but I'm being generous.

So that means he became Robin like, twenty-three years ago. Which would mean that a twelve year old Dick Grayson in the Year of our Lord _nineteen-ninety-nine_ thought, "Yeah, I want to wear an outfit that shows off my bare legs!" Maybe the circus background makes that more likely, but I certainly can't see Jason Todd choosing that same outfit.

Heck, I'm not sure I can see Jason choosing that same outfit in the Year of our Lord nineteen-eighty-three, either.

----------


## Vakanai

> That was a fun issue . . .


Yeah, Dick looks like he's coming right out of the 1940s/50s as a spectre of Christmas past to attack Tim in that cover. Honestly, seeing it now, even Tim's old costume looks kind of dated to me, but still nowhere near as dated as Dick's.



> I think Vakanai is kinda right about Dick's bare legs / sheer leggings. Let's say Dick Grayson is thirty-five years old in 2022. That's... older than I think most people think he is, but I'm being generous.
> 
> So that means he became Robin like, twenty-three years ago. Which would mean that a twelve year old Dick Grayson in the Year of our Lord _nineteen-ninety-nine_ thought, "Yeah, I want to wear an outfit that shows off my bare legs!" Maybe the circus background makes that more likely, but I certainly can't see Jason Todd choosing that same outfit.
> 
> Heck, I'm not sure I can see Jason choosing that same outfit in the Year of our Lord nineteen-eighty-three, either.


Impressive display of basic math! And that's not a jab, I'm really just that bad at doing math off the cuff like that.

To be fair, I do know of adult men around 19-25 years old who like to show off their bare legs, but that's not really the same context I think why Dick would want to (I'm kind of bi, I know these things).

----------


## Twice-named

> The classic costume is the only one I accept for Dick.


Same here. Want to take me completely out of a story? Put Dick in some retconned Robin outfit. 

When I saw the preview for Robin & Batman #1, I saw the Robin outfit and said, "No thanks."

----------


## phonogram12

> Same here. Want to take me completely out of a story? Put Dick in some retconned Robin outfit. 
> 
> When I saw the preview for Robin & Batman #1, I saw the Robin outfit and said, "No thanks."


I don't mind it as the costume he first had when he first started, but as soon as he turns 16 I think it should be retconned that he upgraded. That said, I def think it should still be canon. Anything less is just sacrilege.

----------


## dietrich

[QUOTE=Agent Z;5956783]


> Using the fact that there is a potential future where Tim becomes a villain againt him is disingenuous. It would be like using that bad future in Rebirth Titans against Dick


But We were talking potentially. Future possibilities not yet actuality.


The argumentation point was the claim/assumption that without Bruce intervening, one or more of the characters who became Robin would have grown up to become a Supervillain. 
Potentially. 
In the future. Possibly

If we limit the scope to actualities. What's has happened in current main universe continuity.

Current Robin Tim was down with working with a fascist and advocated for and actively made plans for a police state Gotham. 

Damian another current Robin mind wiped villains and altered their behaviour without consent. . 
Becoming Robin didn't stop either Robin from embracing Ideologies and behaviours that are in line with super villainy not heroics.

Becoming Robin didn't prevent Jason from becoming a villain.



> Also, Robin's only been killed twice


Robin has been killed 5 times. 
Damian has been killed 4 times. [Inc, RSOB and twice in Williamson's Robin series]





> Steph was a vigilante on her own. She wasn't recruited to become Spoiler by Bruce and was actually pretty effective without him


I know. My comment states she was already a successful solo hero before Bruce made her Robin.

----------


## dietrich

I'm not a fan of the OG Robin costume either. 

Batman is in Stealthy coloured suit that covers his whole body and blends into the night and Robin is in an overt costume that leaves some parts of his body bare always bothered me.

Robin is the more vulnerable of the duo so he needs the stealthy suit.

as stupid as it might sound in my mind I feel attacks would hurt more if directed at bare skin. It's daft and the smart part of my brain tells me that's not how it works but.....

Even the Pixie boots seem like they'd be a hindrance in their line of work.

Prior to getting into comics I always saw Robin as a super lame joke Character and a big part of the reason was the bloody suit.

----------


## TheRay

Gotham doesnt have enough heroes.

----------


## phonogram12

Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread.

----------


## Alan2099

The original Robin suit works when paired with the classic blue and gray Batman costumes, but when you try to say that Batman never had lighter more colorful costumes, it sticks out.

----------


## TheRay

Tomasi should be used more.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Tomasi should be used more.


I thought DC let him go?

----------


## Jv565

My favorite relationship in the entire Batman mythos is between Bruce and Zatanna.

----------


## TheRay

It could be interesting to see what would happen if The Commissioner were dead for a year or so, kind of like whats going on with Alfred.

----------


## williamtheday

The original Robin suit sure worked for Jill St. John!

----------


## brandnewfan

I don't really think this is controversial but...

I think there should be an entire 100+ issue run of nothing by Dick and Damian as partners. They really are the best Batman and Robin duo and it got cut all too soon.

----------


## MajorHoy

> It could be interesting to see what would happen if The Commissioner were dead for a year or so, kind of like whats going on with Alfred.


Haven't they already done enough to Gordon over the years?   :EEK!:  

And is Alfred alive again yet?

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> Haven't they already done enough to Gordon over the years?   
> 
> And is Alfred alive again yet?


Yes. They have. Poor Gordon is one of the most traumatized people in the DC universe, yet also one of the most ethical, moral, and loving person in said universe. Possibly because he's the only character shown who regularly uses therapy to address his issues and constantly examine his motivations and actions instead of just assuming he's right. Even his affairs were examined for the impact he had on others, in particular his daughter.

Bruce would be a dramatically different person if he was written with the adult morality of Gordon. I would say ethics, but Bruce is completely lacking in ethics.

Alfred is still dead. Damian is planning on raising him from the dead in the next Robin issue.

----------


## Restingvoice

Gordon is super Lawful Good. Bruce written as Gordon would probably be the Batman who's deputized by the police in the 60s.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

I like the Devin Grayson run
Nightwing (1996-2009) 095-000.jpg

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I don't really think this is controversial but...
> 
> I think there should be an entire 100+ issue run of nothing by Dick and Damian as partners. They really are the best Batman and Robin duo and it got cut all too soon.


If it's controversial, it shouldn't be.

Put a good writer on that, I'd read it in a heartbeat.

----------


## dietrich

> I don't really think this is controversial but...
> 
> I think there should be an entire 100+ issue run of nothing by Dick and Damian as partners. They really are the best Batman and Robin duo and it got cut all too soon.


That's a popular opinion not a controversial one  :Cool:

----------


## Twice-named

> I like the Devin Grayson run
> Nightwing (1996-2009) 095-000.jpg


I liked it up until One Year Later.

----------


## Vakanai

> The original Robin suit works when paired with the classic blue and gray Batman costumes, but when you try to say that Batman never had lighter more colorful costumes, it sticks out.


Even with the blue and gray (another of my controversial opinions here, Batman should never have a blue costume) the bare legs and pixie boots don't work and look ridiculous.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If it's controversial, it shouldn't be.
> 
> Put a good writer on that, I'd read it in a heartbeat.


In fact nothing really can stop them doing it since we have Omniverse and different lines, even collaboration partners like Webtoon. They just need someone good who wants to do it and have a good pitch. Start as a mini and expand it to a series if it sells.   




> I like the Devin Grayson run
> Nightwing (1996-2009) 095-000.jpg


In general or specifically surrounding their relationship? ^^

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> In general or specifically surrounding their relationship? ^^


General.
Deastroke and Rose are great here.
Unfortunately for Rose, Teen Titans happened (2003 run).
It took a long time, but Priest managed to get the character back and out of Robins orbit, all for Williamson to play her again in this hole. Because you know, female characters in DC just seem to serve male characters most of the time.

----------


## exile001

> I liked it up until One Year Later.


Year One was written by Chuck Dixon, so....

----------


## exile001

> I don't really think this is controversial but...
> 
> I think there should be an entire 100+ issue run of nothing by Dick and Damian as partners. They really are the best Batman and Robin duo and it got cut all too soon.


Nah, we're all good.

Batman and Robin is mostly like Homer's Poochie suggestions - Whenever Bruce is offscreen all the characters should be asking "where's Bruce?" The whole thing is a massive build up to Bruce's return and he just rocks up at the end and sorts everything out in, like, an issue or two.

Dying while crying for his mother to save him did more for Damian's character than that the entire rest of the run. At least that showed him as more than one of the three generic archetypes he'd embodied up to that point.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Year One was written by Chuck Dixon, so....


One Year Later begins in Nightwing 118, for Bruce Jones. You are confused with Nightwing Year One, from Nightwing 101 to Nightwing 106 by Chuck Dixon.

----------


## TheRay

Oracle is more than just information gathering and hacking.

----------


## Twice-named

> I liked it up until One Year Later.


I meant to say I liked Grayson’s run up until the move to NY. I forgot that happened before OYL.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Oracle is more than just information gathering and hacking.


From their website, "A complete enterprise cloud designed to modernize your business."

"Our integrated suite of applications with built-in AI capabilities connects your most critical business processes and provides consistent user experiencesso you can get more done."

"Operate your IT predictably, securely, and at a lower cost with cloud infrastructure services designed to run all your cloud native, web-scale, and mission-critical workloads."https://www.oracle.com/uk/index.html

This is controversial?

----------


## JediBatman54

Batman rogues are more realistic than Batman himself

----------


## JediBatman54

The Joker is bisexual he like to look effeminate even in some comics he use make up
Batman should be asexual for him protect Gotham is more important than having a love life

----------


## James Cameron

> The Joker is bisexual he like to look effeminate even in some comics he use make up
> Batman should be asexual for him protect Gotham is more important than having a love life


Agreed on both counts. 

The only people in the Bat family who should have a "life" outside of their heroics are Dick, Babs, and Tim.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> The Joker is bisexual he like to look effeminate even in some comics he use make up
> Batman should be asexual for him protect Gotham is more important than having a love life


just because somebody is obsessed with their job doesnt mean they are asexual? Batman has always been a man of sexual nature, being easily taunted by it. It's one of his more recognizable parts of his mythos. He's a ladies' man who also happens to be a work-a-holic. He doesnt need to be ace to be that.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Agreed on both counts. 
> 
> The only people in the Bat family who should have a "life" outside of their heroics are Dick, Babs, and Tim.


I agree wabout Dick and Tim, but Babs has always been a workaholic herself and choosing to stay in the thick of it. She became batgirl for a reason. She chose that lifestyle and prefers it that way. Its part of the reason why I prefer older Babs because she is the very definition of a modern working woman.

----------


## Alan2099

> Batman rogues are more realistic than Batman himself


Batman isn't any more realistic than Superman is.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Batman isn't any more realistic than Superman is.


Superman is more realistic. He at least has the whole alien thing going for him, explaining his abilities. Batman, supposedly a human, makes it on maybe 2 hours of sleep, while supposedly staying in peak physical condition, maintaining a multi-billion dollar company, attending galas, inventing BS devices, driving around Gotham in what amounts to a jet powered tank, and somehow splits his time between a crime-ridden city and global threats with the Justice League.

----------


## mathew101281

> just because somebody is obsessed with their job doesnt mean they are asexual? Batman has always been a man of sexual nature, being easily taunted by it. It's one of his more recognizable parts of his mythos. He's a ladies' man who also happens to be a work-a-holic. He doesnt need to be ace to be that.


Exactly, major characters like Catwoman, Talia, and Vicky Vale don’t work conceptually it Bruce isn’t interested in women at all.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I can't stand Damians new Robin outfit. I gave myself time to get used to it but I can't.  I hate it. It's so dark and gloomy, which admittedly suits Damian, as he is a bit of an edgelord. Robin  should mostly wear red or green, bonus points for a generous splash of yellow, imo.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I can't stand Damians new Robin outfit. I gave myself time to get used to it but I can't.  I hate it. It's so dark and gloomy, which admittedly suits Damian, as he is a bit of an edgelord. Robin  should mostly wear red or green, bonus points for a generous splash of yellow, imo.


Maybe they can start calling him "*Dark Robin*"?

Or "Edge Robin"?

----------


## marhawkman

> Maybe they can start calling him "*Dark Robin*"?
> 
> Or "Edge Robin"?


Hmmm Dark Robin is taken already.  :Stick Out Tongue:   By..... Earth -22 Damian Wayne.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I can't stand Damians new Robin outfit. I gave myself time to get used to it but I can't.  I hate it. It's so dark and gloomy, which admittedly suits Damian, as he is a bit of an edgelord. Robin  should mostly wear red or green, bonus points for a generous splash of yellow, imo.


He wears the outfit because he was quitting the Bat family remember. He's quitting the Robin that the Bat family created. He and Bruce only just make up. So maybe after Dark Crisis, after Bruce is safe and sound, and after Damian decides he will stay, if they're not lazy, he'll get a more traditional outfit

----------


## Jackalope89

> He wears the outfit because he was quitting the Bat family remember. He's quitting the Robin that the Bat family created. He and Bruce only just make up. So maybe after Dark Crisis, after Bruce is safe and sound, and after Damian decides he will stay, if they're not lazy, he'll get a more traditional outfit


Traditional, eh?

----------


## Starter Set

Batman isn't all that good at his job.

Ghotam still is the same shithole it always has been.

----------


## PCN24454

> Batman isn't all that good at his job.
> 
> Ghotam still is the same shithole it always has been.


No, it says a lot that Gotham is better with Batman than without.

----------


## Restingvoice

Harley, Ivy, Talia, Selina, Waylon, Shiva and the Man-Bat family are semi reformed (relapse sometimes, well, often, but they also help fight greater villains) 
Ra's was going to reform
The Falcone crime family are dead
Zucco's gone
The Maroni are still around, but latch on to Blockbuster instead
Spyral became straight up ally 
The Parliament and Court of Owls are scattered
Ghost-Maker and Clownhunter turned from murderer to follow Batman
Two-Face also more often ally instead of not in his part couple of story arcs
Jeremiah is full on ally, he's not Black Mask II
Add the rest of the Bat family you can almost 1 v 1 the major bad guys in Arkham (no of course I didn't count)

Over in Bludhaven Blockbuster's getting cockblocked everywhere by Dick, Melinda and the Titans

It took a really long time just to reform a bad guy and they often relapse but there is progress

The weird thing is Mr. Freeze is becoming a mercenary now. I guess when you thawed your wife and she turned to be a worst villain than you, you kind of lose motivation

Clayface will take a while to reform completely without Cass. He kinda gave up for now

----------


## adrikito

> He wears the outfit because he was quitting the Bat family remember. He's quitting the Robin that the Bat family created. He and Bruce only just make up. So maybe after Dark Crisis, after Bruce is safe and sound, and after Damian decides he will stay, if they're not lazy, he'll get a more traditional outfit


This is controversial opinions sooo...

Damian new costume is cool. If the rebirth costume was better than his N52 one the current costume is Superior to both.

Damian should continue with it during some years and not return to his old colors. Try to keep this and only have minor changes..

Also return to his old colors is make Damian and Tim wear similar costumes again.

----------


## exile001

> Damian new costume is cool. If the rebirth costume was better than his N52 one the current costume is Superior to both.
> 
> Damian should continue with it during some years and not return to his old colors. Try to keep this and only have minor changes.


I completely agree. It grew on me really quickly in Robin's book and with Tim back in the classic costume it makes Damian more distinct. 

It also reminds me a little of Hush's costume for some reason, which I kinda liked as they have a bit of history.

----------


## marhawkman

Riddler and Calculator are better Batman foes than Bane and Joker.  Why? because they're intellectual enemies to out-think, not out-fight.  Does he deserve to be called the "World's greatest detective" when he does no detective work?

----------


## Top Hat

Bruce and Talia is better couple than Bruce and Selina.

----------


## Mutant God

> Riddler and Calculator are better Batman foes than Bane and *Joker.  Why? because they're intellectual enemies to out-think*, not out-fight.  Does he deserve to be called the "World's greatest detective" when he does no detective work?


But thats just it, how do you out-think a criminal whos unpredictable? Joker is a great Batman villain.

Calculator should be a villain for Cyborg, I think they would be good foils.

----------


## marhawkman

> But thats just it, how do you out-think a criminal whos unpredictable? Joker is a great Batman villain.
> 
> Calculator should be a villain for Cyborg, I think they would be good foils.


Well, Calculator has gotten used in BoP as a foil for Oracle.

As for Joker.....  Joker's not fully unpredictable.  Sure, he's erratic, but he has goals and motives that are reasonably consistent.

----------


## Stanlos

Opinions on Shadow War?

----------


## MajorHoy

> Opinions on Shadow War?


Don't we already have some other threads discussing that?   :Confused:

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Opinions on Shadow War?


Bad and bland, as expected from Joshua Williamson.

----------


## JediBatman54

Batman after killing Joker at the end of Killing Joke started to killing all his other villains Gordon tried to capture him but when he finally found him Batman already took his own life

----------


## MajorHoy

> Batman after killing Joker at the end of Killing Joke started to killing all his other villains Gordon tried to capture him but when he finally found him Batman already took his own life


I think I'm missing something . . .

----------


## Jackalope89

> I think I'm missing something . . .


Head canon of theirs, I guess.

Tim, at this point, should just go by "Everyman" since apparently that was the era most liked him, and have the power of blending into the background rather than try to usurp the Robin title from all the Robins (surprised he didn't try to take it from Matt in Batman Beyond, for how short a time he was in the costume).

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Head canon of theirs, I guess.
> 
> Tim, at this point, should just go by "Everyman" since apparently that was the era most liked him, and have the power of blending into the background rather than try to usurp the Robin title from all the Robins (surprised he didn't try to take it from Matt in Batman Beyond, for how short a time he was in the costume).


Only if he has to buy the name rights from Hannibal Bates.  :Wink: .

----------


## anakin99

Poison Ivy True love it's the plants I don't think she should be with a  man or woman

----------


## Jackalope89

> Poison Ivy True love it's the plants I don't think she should be with a  man or woman


...Swamp Thing?

----------


## JThree

Miss Selina's long hair. 

--jthree

----------


## Jv565

> ...Swamp Thing?


If Ivy married Swamp Thing, her new name would be Poison Thing. 

I approve.

----------


## JediBatman54

The Joker was homosexual in the comics before the creation of Harley Quinn and in my head canon in some comics he dont fall in chemical acids so he wears makeup to look pretty maybe he wanted to be trans i dont know  but the Joker was a very effeminate person before Harley

----------


## marhawkman

> If Ivy married Swamp Thing, her new name would be Poison Thing. 
> 
> I approve.


Oddly in DCUO they're setup as opposites as they both act as avatars of the Green.  It seems like one of those things where they have a lotin common, but that's what makes them have a conflict.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The Joker was homosexual in the comics before the creation of Harley Quinn and in my head canon in some comics he dont fall in chemical acids so he wears makeup to look pretty maybe he wanted to be trans i dont know  but the Joker was a very effeminate person before Harley


There is whatever you want but if he wears a make up it's because he's a clown though

----------


## Cyberstrike

Kate Kane as Batwoman is far superior character than Bruce Wayne as Batman will ever be.

----------


## godisawesome

- Bruce shouldn’t do nightly patrols as Batman, but as Matches Malone, so he can carry on major investigations without neccessarily putting his body through the wringer.

- Dick should still be a Batman, and simply merge the Nightwing suit with his Batman suit, and blend the identities, like as Batman, The Nightwing, and act as Damian’s main partner and as the main Justice League Batman on the basis he has a better reputation as a team player.

- Tim should wear a cowl as Red Robin/Rook, and continue the Fabian Nicieza-style MO of trying to manipulate and outmaneuver larger organization and the logistics of international crime.

- Jason should not be on friendly terms with the rest of the family… though he shouldn’t be hostile with them either. Yes, it really should come down to the fact he uses lethal force. It should be an “irreconcilable difference” setting him apart from the family.

- By a similar standard, Talia in modern times is long past being a love interest for Bruce, but neither is she a caricature of a Bond Villain who makes no sense even as Bruce’s ex; the general idea should be that she was once morally ambiguous and helpful enough to be an asset that became and ally and then lover, but made a choice to be a villain that forever closed her off from being close to Bruce. Maybe she still maintains contact with Jason, but even then, her position as a mastermind keeps that from being permanent. (No boning between them though - that’s just weird.)

- Babs alone runs the Birds of Prey; without her, there is no group with that name.

- Selina *is* effectively married to Bruce… but the gag is that, given the unorthodox nature of their lives and relationship, she tends to fly in and out of the relationship, never cheating on him, but never settling down with him either - a bit like an actual street cat.

----------


## JediBatman54

> There is whatever you want but if he wears a make up it's because he's a clown though


Its part of my headcanon

----------


## Restingvoice

> - Bruce shouldn’t do nightly patrols as Batman, but as Matches Malone, so he can carry on major investigations without neccessarily putting his body through the wringer.


As Matches his movement is more limited to the ground though so he won't have the same scope

Ah but is this where Dick comes in? He covers the sky?

----------


## phonogram12

> - Bruce shouldn’t do nightly patrols as Batman, but as Matches Malone, so he can carry on major investigations without neccessarily putting his body through the wringer.


I can actually kind of agree with this. Not so much the wringer part, but more if he wants to stop crime on a bigger scale, putting a guy robbing a liquor store away or selling psychedelics on a street corner because they can't find another way to pay rent isn't going to do it. Similar to the recent movie, the problem's more systemic than that. Sure Gordon can light up the Bat Signal when whoever's broken out of Arkham for the millionth time, but Batman really should aim for the guys who actually make the dirty money flow in Gotham City, not the people living in poverty forced to work for them.

----------


## godisawesome

> As Matches his movement is more limited to the ground though so he won't have the same scope
> 
> Ah but is this where Dick comes in? He covers the sky?


Yup, as part of patrolling with Damian.

A Matches investigation plays into longer, more strategic operations.

----------


## Mutant God

> As Matches his movement is more limited to the ground though so he won't have the same scope
> 
> *Ah but is this where Dick comes in?* He covers the sky?


Hes Matches younger brother Tricky Ricky Malone...in fact let all the Batfamily members be a part of the Malone Crime Family

----------


## JediBatman54

I have not problems to say the modern version of Batman is a Gary Stu personified

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hes Matches younger brother Tricky Ricky Malone...in fact let all the Batfamily members be a part of the Malone Crime Family


They kind of already are, at least disguise wise. Matches, Tricky, Li'l Matches, I think only Jason and Damian don't have the name, but they got the look. Damian when partnering with Supergirl and Jason when infiltrating Iceberg Lounge.




> I have not problems to say the modern version of Batman is a Gary Stu personified


He has too many character flaws (obsessive and possessive being the stand out) to be considered one

----------


## Dragolord09

I don't know why and I can't seem to articulate it well, but I never could stand the Wayne Family Adventures webcomic.

----------


## Jackalope89

> They kind of already are, at least disguise wise. Matches, Tricky, Li'l Matches, I think only Jason and Damian don't have the name, but they got the look. Damian when partnering with Supergirl and Jason when infiltrating Iceberg Lounge.
> 
> 
> 
> He has too many character flaws (obsessive and possessive being the stand out) to be considered one


The name escapes me, but Jason did pull his own Matches disguise during RHATO Rebirth

----------


## marhawkman

> He has too many character flaws (obsessive and possessive being the stand out) to be considered one


Well.. when you don't have story fiat saying they're actually good things...

----------


## Jackalope89

> They kind of already are, at least disguise wise. Matches, Tricky, Li'l Matches, I think only Jason and Damian don't have the name, but they got the look. Damian when partnering with Supergirl and Jason when infiltrating Iceberg Lounge.
> 
> 
> 
> He has too many character flaws (obsessive and possessive being the stand out) to be considered one


It depends on the writer, honestly.

----------


## Mutant God

> They kind of already are, at least disguise wise. Matches, *Tricky*, Li'l Matches, I think only Jason and Damian don't have the name, but they got the look. Damian when partnering with Supergirl and Jason when infiltrating Iceberg Lounge.


Wait is Tricky real because I thought I was making that up?

I would find it funny if Kate, Cass, and Stephanie pretended to be mobsters lol

----------


## Restingvoice

> Wait is Tricky real because I thought I was making that up?
> 
> I would find it funny if Kate, Cass, and Stephanie pretended to be mobsters lol


There's a Matches Malone disguise for every male Robin but I don't remember the names. Someone listed it before, and I thought it was Tricky. Li'l Matches is real, but I don't remember if it's Tim or Damian.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> There's a Matches Malone disguise for every male Robin but I don't remember the names. Someone listed it before, and I thought it was Tricky. Li'l Matches is real, but I don't remember if it's Tim or Damian.


Knute Brody from Paul Dini's short story in TEC #1000 (not that my memory is that good, just finished reading it) is Dini's take on a Matches disguise for the Batfamily

----------


## Jackalope89

Alas, for Jason's "Matches Malone" disguise, the closest to a name we get is "Spanky". 

Don't ask.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Alas, for Jason's "Matches Malone" disguise, the closest to a name we get is "*Spanky*". 
> 
> Don't ask.


Any relation to:

----------


## Restingvoice

> Any relation to:


"Teachers and parents these days don't discipline their kids properly and call it abuse"

Source?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Any relation to:


It would be funny if Jason tries to be "Spanker II"  a legacy villian.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Any relation to:


lol
But no. Though being on the same team as Artemis, whom he had an obvious thing for...
He went full cheese mode during his short stint though.

----------


## MajorHoy

> "Teachers and parents these days don't discipline their kids properly and call it abuse"
> 
> Source?


The Spanker first appeared in a *Marvel Treasury Edition* featuring Howard the Duck back in 1976.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It would be funny if Jason tries to be "Spanker II"  a legacy villian.


Shut up or Papa Spank II if his Bruce side comes out

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Shut up or Papa Spank II if his Bruce side comes out


Like in the old days ?  :Wink: 
https://screenrant.com/batman-spanki...dc-comics/amp/

----------


## RedBird

> Shut up or Papa Spank II if his Bruce side comes out


OR

----------


## phonogram12

Outside of her friendship with Cassandra Cain, I've never understood the appeal of Steph.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Outside of her friendship with Cassandra Cain, I've never understood the appeal of Steph.


So, I take it you never read any of the stories with Steph before Cassandra was even introduced?  :Confused:

----------


## phonogram12

> So, I take it you never read any of the stories with Steph before Cassandra was even introduced?


I've read the first 55 issues of Dixon's run on Robin. I just never saw the appeal. She just seemed really...generic to me.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I've read the first 55 issues of Dixon's run on Robin. I just never saw the appeal. She just seemed really...generic to me.


*Robin #1* (of the regular series) was from 1993.  Stephanie first appeared in *Detective Comics #647* (June 1992) as did her father.

----------


## phonogram12

> *Robin #1* (of the regular series) was from 1993.  Stephanie first appeared in *Detective Comics #647* (June 1992) as did her father.


I am aware of both of those things (I've been reading comics for 40 years). I was merely explaining most of my initial exposure to this character who I found generic prior to her introduction to Cass.

----------


## Frontier

Vllain dad, trying to be a hero, throwing a brick at Robin, the costume, and her whole premise has always been pretty unique to me  :Smile: .

----------


## Robanker

I like that she was, well, kind of the bar in the Batfam. Not especially talented like the rest but her heart was in her right place and she put the work in. 

Steph, more than most, was "what if you tried to be a crime fighter in Gotham City." She's not a naturally gifted aerialist, trust fund perfect specimen, assassin trained from birth or really any of it. 

The appeal was basically that she was someone trying to do the right thing without essentially having some part of her skill set stacked to do so.

She's the reality of "anyone could be Batman." *You can't*.  But you could be Spoiler.

----------


## Frontier

> I like that she was, well, kind of the bar in the Batfam. Not especially talented like the rest but her heart was in her right place and she put the work in. 
> 
> Steph, more than most, was "what if you tried to be a crime fighter in Gotham City." She's not a naturally gifted aerialist, trust fund perfect specimen, assassin trained from birth or really any of it. 
> 
> The appeal was basically that she was someone trying to do the right thing without essentially having some part of her skill set stacked to do so.
> 
> She's the reality of "anyone could be Batman." *You can't*.  But you could be Spoiler.


And then she became the fun Batgirl  :Smile: .

----------


## MajorHoy

> And then she became the fun Batgirl .


Well, Babs could also be fun (at least prior to *CoIE* and that whole eventual *The Killing Joke* thing).

----------


## Frontier

> Well, Babs could also be fun (at least prior to *CoIE* and that whole eventual *The Killing Joke* thing).


I don't disagree, but I think Steph was fun in a millennial way.

----------


## exile001

> Outside of her friendship with Cassandra Cain, I've never understood the appeal of Steph.


Outside of her first appearance, I felt the same until she became Batgirl. Then Steph totally clicked for me.

Weirdly, I don't think I ever really liked actually her partnered with Tim.




> *Robin #1* (of the regular series) was from 1993.  Stephanie first appeared in *Detective Comics #647* (June 1992) as did her father.


Cluemaster first appeared in Detective Comics #351 (1966) and was used as a comedy character in Giffen's Justice League era before Dixon got hold of him.

----------


## phonogram12

> Vllain dad, trying to be a hero...


The first examples that popped into my head are Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, but I'm sure there are more.




> And then she became the fun Batgirl .


Thing is, I never found her solo series particularly fun, either.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Thing is, I never found her solo series particularly fun, either.


Not even

 :Confused:

----------


## phonogram12

> Not even


I just didn't, I'm sorry. More power to those who did enjoy it, though. That is a killer Dustin Nguyen cover, however.

----------


## Robanker

> Not even


Steph is the funnest Batgirl bar none.

----------


## Frontier

> The first examples that popped into my head are Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, but I'm sure there are more.


I mean, maybe not within the genre but in the context of the Batfamily and how the actual story played out, I'd say she's pretty unique. 



> Thing is, I never found her solo series particularly fun, either.


Huh! I guess we all come away from stuff with different takeaways.

----------


## JediBatman54

I like Gotham Riddler more than The Batman Riddler feels like a more complex character i like him how they potray him as Bisexual
and i like his friendship with the Penguin

----------


## phonogram12

> I mean, maybe not within the genre but in the context of the Batfamily and how the actual story played out, I'd say she's pretty unique. 
> 
> Huh! I guess we all come away from stuff with different takeaways.


*shrugs* I guess I just never saw the appeal.

That said, I think the new Batgirls book is pretty fun. I'm really digging the hell out of that.

----------


## JediBatman54

In my headcanon there was conspiracy theories that Joker was played by many people at least this is true on the New 52 world but i would like to think that this happen in the Pre New 52 worlds too

----------


## OopsIdiditagain

Dick is Barbara's worst love interest. I wish Barbara felt more mature, Barbara and Ted Kord should be friends with benefits again.

----------


## JediBatman54

I think the Harley Quinn character is overrated i prefer the Joker being a loner i think if someone loved him since having that One Bad Day he would have recovered and left crime i also feel that Joker is too effeminate to have an affair with a Girl i dont like how they want Harley Quinn to be important to Joker  when he would be fine without her i would have preferred Gaggy to be his principal Sidekick instead of Harley

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think the Harley Quinn character is overrated i prefer the Joker being a loner i think if someone loved him since having that One Bad Day he would have recovered and left crime i also feel that Joker is too effeminate to have an affair with a Girl i dont like how they want Harley Quinn to be important to Joker  when he would be fine without her i would have preferred Gaggy to be his principal Sidekick instead of Harley


The One Bad Day was him losing his wife and child. Not any other girl will replace her and Harley only came in about 6-10 years later. He's too far gone by then. Also we're not sure if the One Bad Day even real or not. It's real in Three Jokers but Joker himself wasn't sure in Killing Joke

Speaking of Three Jokers

I think it makes sense, with current technology, that Batman would be able to figure out Joker's secret identity and the location of his wife and child. 

Just kill them though

----------


## Aahz

> I think the Harley Quinn character is overrated i prefer the Joker being a loner i think if someone loved him since having that One Bad Day he would have recovered and left crime i also feel that Joker is too effeminate to have an affair with a Girl i dont like how they want Harley Quinn to be important to Joker  when he would be fine without her i would have preferred Gaggy to be his principal Sidekick instead of Harley


Harley works fine with the DCAU version of the Joker, but not with all takes on Joker in the comics.

----------


## marhawkman

> Harley works fine with the DCAU version of the Joker, but not with all takes on Joker in the comics.


Also, Harley is chaotic stupid, and not really chaotic EVIL

----------


## phonogram12

> Dick is Barbara's worst love interest. I wish Barbara felt more mature, Barbara and Ted Kord should be friends with benefits again.


Literally, the only writer that's ever been able to convince me that Dick and Babs are any sort of viable couple is Tom Taylor. Prior to that, though, I agree. Dick and Babs always just seemed really incestuous to me before and they just really seemed to bring out the worst in each other, which is why I also wanted her with Ted and Dick with Kory. At the time, I just thought Babs really needed someone who could make her laugh and not take life too seriously and that was definitely Ted the same way Kory tended to brighten up Dick's overall disposition.

----------


## JediBatman54

There is little doubt that Batman has homoerotic vibes he pretends to be around with many Woman and being a playboy as mask he use as Bruce Wayne i would like to see an alternative story or world where Bruce is homosexual or bisexual i think his character will change nothing with he being gay or bi i think Bruce is a type of person who likes to leave his sexual life very private i see it realistic Bruce flirting with both Men and Woman

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Dick is Barbara's worst love interest. I wish Barbara felt more mature, Barbara and Ted Kord should be friends with benefits again.


It benefits him, not her.
Dick's Dating is currently Barbara's biggest role in the comics.

----------


## exile001

> I think it makes sense, with current technology, that Batman would be able to figure out Joker's secret identity and the location of his wife and child.


But Joker's wife died before giving birth, at least in The Killing Joke story that introduced the concept, so it'd make it a lot harder to connect those dots using them. Harder still to have the prescience to fake their deaths and witness protect them prior to him even becoming Joker, but I guess the cops could have caught wind of the robbery (they and Batman got there quickly).

Regardless, like most of Johns' Batman writing it was the absolute least interesting, most contrived and frustrating way the story could have gone in my opinion.

----------


## Alan2099

I never liked any story where Joker is trying to prove that all it takes is one bad day to break somebody.  Joker trying to prove a point or teach a lesson, to me, feel like it misses the point of Joker.  

One day ruining your life really feels like it should be a Two-Face thing.

----------


## godisawesome

Give me “Joker was a misanthropic thug and gangster before he even met the Red Hood gang” over “Sad comedian with a dead wife” any day of the weak. 

I have enough trouble getting mildly interested in the type of “descent into madness” story that the movie went with… by which I mean I spoiled myself on it and still don’t especially care to actually see it… so I have even less patience for trying to make him a sympathetic guy with a Freudian Excuse.

I just… don’t have any time for Joker as a protagonist in any way - I even find The Killing Joker boring, because it’s a great monologue and a paltry, pathetic story that, arguably, really shouldn’t have been in continuity if it’s only seismic impact on the mythos was a strictly casual detail it went through.

Ever since I first checked out The Killing Joke and A Death In The Family from the library, I’ve always thought the latter was the only one worth my time.

Joker’s an unsympathetic, love-to-hate dick. He’s always best as that.

----------


## millernumber1

> Give me “Joker was a misanthropic thug and gangster before he even met the Red Hood gang” over “Sad comedian with a dead wife” any day of the weak. 
> 
> I have enough trouble getting mildly interested in the type of “descent into madness” story that the movie went with… by which I mean I spoiled myself on it and still don’t especially care to actually see it… so I have even less patience for trying to make him a sympathetic guy with a Freudian Excuse.
> 
> I just… don’t have any time for Joker as a protagonist in any way - I even find The Killing Joker boring, because it’s a great monologue and a paltry, pathetic story that, arguably, really shouldn’t have been in continuity if it’s only seismic impact on the mythos was a strictly casual detail it went through.
> 
> Ever since I first checked out The Killing Joke and A Death In The Family from the library, I’ve always thought the latter was the only one worth my time.
> 
> Joker’s an unsympathetic, love-to-hate dick. He’s always best as that.


Completely agree.  :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

> Give me “Joker was a misanthropic thug and gangster before he even met the Red Hood gang” over “Sad comedian with a dead wife” any day of the weak. 
> 
> I have enough trouble getting mildly interested in the type of “descent into madness” story that the movie went with… by which I mean I spoiled myself on it and still don’t especially care to actually see it… so I have even less patience for trying to make him a sympathetic guy with a Freudian Excuse.
> 
> I just… don’t have any time for Joker as a protagonist in any way - I even find The Killing Joker boring, because it’s a great monologue and a paltry, pathetic story that, arguably, really shouldn’t have been in continuity if it’s only seismic impact on the mythos was a strictly casual detail it went through.
> 
> Ever since I first checked out The Killing Joke and A Death In The Family from the library, I’ve always thought the latter was the only one worth my time.
> 
> Joker’s an unsympathetic, love-to-hate dick. He’s always best as that.


It bears remembering that the "one bad day" belief is disproven by Gordon and it could be argued that it took more than one bad day to make the Joker what he is. 

Not to mention the implication that Joker is lying about or misremembering his past.

----------


## The Kid

Harley getting redeemed and becoming one of Batman's allies (not necessarily partner) was always the best arc for her. Since her inception she was always shown as redeemable in BTAS and her character arc has always been moving forward as she eventually ditches Joker and becomes an anti-hero.

----------


## godisawesome

> Harley getting redeemed and becoming one of Batman's allies (not necessarily partner) was always the best arc for her. Since her inception she was always shown as redeemable in BTAS and her character arc has always been moving forward as she eventually ditches Joker and becomes an anti-hero.


I agree, with the nuance that it’s the natural consequence of giving her agency as a POV character and protagonist; before BTNAS adapted Mad Love, her POV was limited as was her agency, so she could act as a simple bit of dark humor and be limited to a henchman. Once the audience was shown her POV and told to take it seriously once, it was impossible to put that rabbit back in the hat. And that had far reaching consequences, both for her own relaunching into more anti-heroic characterization, and in how it contributed to a similar line of thought with Poison Ivy - especially given their team up.

----------


## thefinalguy

> Harley getting redeemed and becoming one of Batman's allies (not necessarily partner) was always the best arc for her. Since her inception she was always shown as redeemable in BTAS and her character arc has always been moving forward as she eventually ditches Joker and becomes an anti-hero.


At one point, yeah, I think this makes sense. I'd argue she has embraced her villainy separate from Joker, and that's perhaps just as interesting, if not more, than the straight anti-hero route they've been going in.

What makes Ivy and Selina so interesting is that they do things or have ideals that can be interpreted as good. Their means aren't necessarily ethical; although Selina stealing has never bothered me, there's at least something that leans them towards anti-hero if they need to be written that way.

I think the HQ show does a good job of giving Harley her independence but not necessarily being a hero, even if she is at odds with other, worse, villains. Her not being good is fine, she just doesn't need to stoop to Joker levels to have her fun.

----------


## JediBatman54

> Give me “Joker was a misanthropic thug and gangster before he even met the Red Hood gang” over “Sad comedian with a dead wife” any day of the weak. 
> 
> I have enough trouble getting mildly interested in the type of “descent into madness” story that the movie went with… by which I mean I spoiled myself on it and still don’t especially care to actually see it… so I have even less patience for trying to make him a sympathetic guy with a Freudian Excuse.
> 
> I just… don’t have any time for Joker as a protagonist in any way - I even find The Killing Joker boring, because it’s a great monologue and a paltry, pathetic story that, arguably, really shouldn’t have been in continuity if it’s only seismic impact on the mythos was a strictly casual detail it went through.
> 
> Ever since I first checked out The Killing Joke and A Death In The Family from the library, I’ve always thought the latter was the only one worth my time.
> 
> Joker’s an unsympathetic, love-to-hate dick. He’s always best as that.


For me it make sense Joker was a Comedian because he is goofy and dress like a Clown

----------


## TheKryptonMan

> It benefits him, not her.
> Dick's Dating is currently Barbara's biggest role in the comics.




Just a thought 💭, what if Dick got involved with Talia ??? 
How would that affect Bruce & Damian ?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Just a thought , what if Dick got involved with Talia ??? 
> How would that affect Bruce & Damian ?


Gah. Bad enough they did a thing between her and Jason. Let Dick... What I was about to say would have been too easy to take out of context.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Just a thought ��, what if Dick got involved with Talia ??? 
> How would that affect Bruce & Damian ?


When we're back in the 70s before everything began I would've preferred that since they're only one year apart
Now though, no
Talia wouldn't like it anyway. She views Dick as a child even back then (because she was created for Bruce).

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> When we're back in the 70s before everything began I would've preferred that since they're only one year apart
> Now though, no
> Talia wouldn't like it anyway. She views Dick as a child even back then (because she was created for Bruce).


I mean, it worked for Babs lmao so why not Talia?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean, it worked for Babs lmao so why not Talia?


Coz they already age her up. Post Crisis I think she's still younger than Harley and Selina. Bruce and Talia's first meeting happened when Dick was still early year of Robin, middle school age. Then in Rebirth there's implication that she's immortal, or even if she's not, she's at least drawn older than Selina. Her personality is also different. She's more ruthless. Dick and Talia already didn't like each other when they're the same age, and with Talia's more assassin modern personality, he's not gonna be into her at any age. 

They have better relationship in Future State, but the vibe is still nothing close to potential lover.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Coz they already age her up. Post Crisis I think she's still younger than Harley and Selina. Bruce and Talia's first meeting happened when Dick was still early year of Robin, middle school age. Then in Rebirth there's implication that she's immortal, or even if she's not, she's at least drawn older than Selina. Her personality is also different. She's more ruthless. Dick and Talia already didn't like each other when they're the same age, and with Talia's more assassin modern personality, he's not gonna be into her at any age. 
> 
> They have better relationship in Future State, but the vibe is still nothing close to potential lover.


Talia could always drug him. Her father s League still lacks an heir, Bruce, Bane and Damian didn t work out. Hey, DC if you read this...

----------


## Restingvoice

> Talia could always drug him. Her father s League still lacks an heir, Bruce, Bane and Damian didn t work out. Hey, DC if you read this...


why would she do that? The reason the drug was even considered as a plot point was because Talia considers Bruce the optimum man, and he's the only one she views that way. Now if it's Ra's drugging Dick and then send Daughter of Acheron to rape him like he did Tim that's a different story.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

Dick never liked Talia, he was always TeamSelina.

----------


## JediBatman54

The Joker nihilistic point of view make sense nihilism is in the believe of nothing so things like good or evil dont exist with this reasoning
in his mind Joker is doing something good he laughs at the world because the existence itself is a Joke there is not logic and difference with killing people robbing banks or taking on other criminals because nothing matters in the end Batman will always lose because crime will always exist there is no person who is always morally good all the time of course Batman tries but it will never be enough the average person do questionable things every day as long humans continue to exist there will always be injustice

----------


## thwhtGuardian

> The Joker nihilistic point of view make sense nihilism is in the believe of nothing so things like good or evil dont exist with this reasoning
> in his mind Joker is doing something good he laughs at the world because the existence itself is a Joke there is not logic and difference with killing people robbing banks or taking on other criminals because nothing matters in the end Batman will always lose because crime will always exist there is no person who is always morally good all the time of course Batman tries but it will never be enough the average person do questionable things every day as long humans continued to exist there was always be injustice

----------


## JediBatman54

sorry english is not my first language

----------


## thwhtGuardian

> sorry english is not my first language


Tongue firmly in cheek, since you have jedi in your user name.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> why would she do that? The reason the drug was even considered as a plot point was because Talia considers Bruce the optimum man, and he's the only one she views that way. Now if it's Ra's drugging Dick and then send Daughter of Acheron to rape him like he did Tim that's a different story.


It was me joking. I should have made it clear. Who is*Daughter of Acheron* and where can I read about her?

----------


## JediBatman54

There is only very few good Batman stories

----------


## JediBatman54

the Nolan Batman movies Aged badly in my opinion
Michael Keaton Batman movies too but i prefer them more over the Nolan movies
The Batman 2022 movie was very boring i dont liked the Riddler and Barry Keoghan Joker looks like a Bad cosplayer
I like Affleck Batman but Jared Leto version of Joker is very bad i cant take that Joker seriously i think the only way i would like Jared Leto Joker is for them to say that he is Dick Grayson and that another older Joker corrupted him or that Robin became the main Joker  of that World after being disappointed with Batman and thats why that DCEU Joker looks different because he was Robin
The No Kill Rule fits more for Superman than Batman, Batman is a more Darker character i dont have a problem with him killing my ideal Batman would be like Michael Keaton a Batman who has no remorse for killing bad guys

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I think Bruce's approach should be like Green Arrow or Netflix Jessica Jones in regards to killing. They'll kill but as a last resort and not something they take pride in.

----------


## marhawkman

> the Nolan Batman movies Aged badly in my opinion
> Michael Keaton Batman movies too but i prefer them more over the Nolan movies
> The Batman 2022 movie was very boring i dont liked the Riddler and Barry Keoghan Joker looks like a Bad cosplayer
> I like Affleck Batman but Jared Leto version of Joker is very bad i cant take that Joker seriously i think the only way i would like Jared Leto Joker is for them to say that he is Dick Grayson and that another older Joker corrupted him or that Robin became the main Joker  of that World after being disappointed with Batman and thats why that DCEU Joker looks different because he was Robin
> The No Kill Rule fits more for Superman than Batman, Batman is a more Darker character i dont have a problem with him killing my ideal Batman would be like Michael Keaton a Batman who has no remorse for killing bad guys


As retired military... "no-kill" rules that are so absolute you'd let innocents die instead of killing bad guys never made sense to me.  Sure you don't go around killing everyone who breaks the law... but... sometimes it's warranted.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Someone did a fan reboot and disconnected Batman from the Justice League and I prefer it. He works better as an outsider than a pillar of the superhero community.

Pun intended.

----------


## Obeythemoderators

Barbra Gordon being with Bruce Wayne is not as creepy and wrong as people make it out to be. This is admittedly more applicable to the animated canon but still, the question was controversial Batman opinions not controversial opinion about the Batfamily in printed media.

I guess since I am already talking about media outside the comics then I should add that future Batman films should stop being afraid of introduce other assistance to Bruce Wayne then Alfred. Actually thought they might have done so in The Batman although I have found no evidence that the old lady that answeared the phone in that one scene was Leslie Thompkins.

----------


## thefinalguy

> Barbra Gordon being with Bruce Wayne is not as creepy and wrong as people make it out to be. This is admittedly more applicable to the animated canon but still, the question was controversial Batman opinions not controversial opinion about the Batfamily in printed media.
> 
> I guess since I am already talking about media outside the comics then I should add that future Batman films should stop being afraid of introduce other assistance to Bruce Wayne then Alfred. Actually thought they might have done so in The Batman although I have found no evidence that the old lady that answeared the phone in that one scene was Leslie Thompkins.


Babs being with Bruce goes out the window with her being aged down and a consistent love interest for Dick. Even the origin of it has her as Dick's ex in that universe. You can't have, especially if she cant be older.

Plus, her being with Dick, Tim, Bruce, and to a lesser, less impactful, Luke... she's dating most of the Batfam, it's just an ugly way to handle her.

Not unpopular but thinking about it Ted Kord and her had potential.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Babs being with Bruce goes out the window with her being aged down and a consistent love interest for Dick. Even the origin of it has her as Dick's ex in that universe. You can't have, especially if she cant be older.
> 
> Plus, her being with Dick, Tim, Bruce, and to a lesser, less impactful, Luke... she's dating most of the Batfam, it's just an ugly way to handle her.
> 
> Not unpopular but thinking about it Ted Kord and her had potential.


Which clears the way for Dick and Starfire to have Mar'i.

----------


## TheKryptonMan

> Babs being with Bruce goes out the window with her being aged down and a consistent love interest for Dick. Even the origin of it has her as Dick's ex in that universe. You can't have, especially if she cant be older.
> 
> Plus, her being with Dick, Tim, Bruce, and to a lesser, less impactful, Luke... she's dating most of the Batfam, it's just an ugly way to handle her.
> 
> Not unpopular but thinking about it Ted Kord and her had potential.



Let's not forget Babs & Jason in the 3 Jokers too .
Yeah " dating " most of the Batfam , it's just an ugly way . I have to agree !

----------


## Jackalope89

> Let's not forget Babs & Jason in the 3 Jokers too .
> Yeah " dating " most of the Batfam , it's just an ugly way . I have to agree !


Well, at least that one didn't get very far. And hasn't really been acknowledged since.

----------


## Godlike13

With today's sensibilities, Babs and Bruce is even more problematic.

----------


## Obeythemoderators

She is 24. Batman is not some creepy hepehile for getting with her.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

Ignore Batman, he's not the point here, if he wants to go out and meet girls with Hal Jordan, let him do it, I just hope the police are on the lookout.
The point is Barbara, first Dick, then Bruce, then Tim, then Luke, Johns really wants to play her and Jason. In the end, the character, which is one of DC's 10 most popular, is only serving to boost the male character's ego. It reminds me again of Hal Jordan and Cry for Justice. I have nothing against Hal Jordan, other than the fact that I hate him.

----------


## Godlike13

> She is 24. Batman is not some creepy hepehile for getting with her.


Not that simple any more. Now you have to consider things like power disparity, grooming, ect. Bruce and Babs checks a lot of cancelable boxes these days.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Originally Posted by TheKryptonMan
> 
> 
> Let's not forget Babs & Jason in the 3 Jokers too .
> Yeah " dating " most of the Batfam , it's just an ugly way . I have to agree !
> 
> 
> Well, at least that one didn't get very far. And hasn't really been acknowledged since.


Aside from the great artwork, I try to forget *Batman: Three Jokers*.
Another miserable, pointless story by Geoff Johns.

----------


## marhawkman

> Someone did a fan reboot and disconnected Batman from the Justice League and I prefer it. He works better as an outsider than a pillar of the superhero community.
> 
> Pun intended.


Arguably he makes a better super villain than hero  :Big Grin:

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Arguably he makes a better super villain than hero


He's the obvious choice to break bad... :Wink:

----------


## thefinalguy

> She is 24. Batman is not some creepy hepehile for getting with her.


But so is Dick. Whom he took in as a child and already has a history with Babs.

They can't co-exist.


EDIT: Quoted the wrong thing at first.

----------


## Majesty

> Originally Posted by thefinalguy
> 
> 
> 
> Babs being with Bruce goes out the window with her being aged down and a consistent love interest for Dick. Even the origin of it has her as Dick's ex in that universe. You can't have, especially if she cant be older.
> 
> Plus, her being with Dick, Tim, Bruce, and to a lesser, less impactful, Luke... she's dating most of the Batfam, it's just an ugly way to handle her.
> 
> Not unpopular but thinking about it Ted Kord and her had potential.
> ...


Babs kissing Jason in 3 Jokers was one of the most convoluted cliche, horrible things they've ever done. Typical "Oh she saw him shirtless. Obviously there has to be something between them now. Cause he man and she woman" caveman way of thinking and writing.  And I hate that it's something that is *CONSTANTLY* done to Babs.

Of all the "Bat Family" Members she's dated, her healthiest relationship was the one was with Luke. So obviously they had to break them up off-screen for no reason, so they could eventually put her back with Dick and the circle continues.

----------


## thefinalguy

> Babs kissing Jason in 3 Jokers was one of the most convoluted cliche, horrible things they've ever done. Typical "Oh she saw him shirtless. Obviously there has to be something between them now. Cause he man and she woman" caveman way of thinking and writing.  And I hate that it's something that is *CONSTANTLY* done to Babs.
> 
> Of all the "Bat Family" Members she's dated, her healthiest relationship was the one was with Luke. So obviously they had to break them up off-screen for no reason, so they could eventually put her back with Dick and the circle continues.


Although I hate Babs being with yet another Batfam member, I agree that Luke was actually a solid relationship. They had potential together but it was always obvious they'd push her back with Dick, souring whatever may happen. That's with every random love interest but it stings more when that character isn't a random civilian.

----------


## Godlike13

What moments truly stood out to you guys with Luke and Babs?

----------


## Drako

> What moments truly stood out to you guys with Luke and Babs?


They were together for what? 5, 10 issues? Of course there were no time for drama.

----------


## Godlike13

> They were together for what? 5, 10 issues? Of course there were no time for drama.


They’re basically the same character. On paper made sense, but in practice it was beyond boring. Penguin’s son had more going on lol.

----------


## Majesty

> What moments truly stood out to you guys with Luke and Babs?


It may be cliche, but tbh how healthy their relationship was.  Supportive, understanding, there wasn't much drama in terms of their relationship (unless it was something Dick caused).  I also thought they were adorable at her friend's wedding. 




I don't speak for everyone else of course, but healthy relationships just do it when it comes to characters like Babs whose entire love life had been toxicity and heartbreak by that point (a lot of it perpetuated by Dick), it was nice to see her in an actual healthy, loving, supportive relationship where they had good chemistry, got each other, and the drama they both endured didn't have to involve them having relationship problems.  And I always liked seeing Babs be in a relationship like that which wasn't previously steeped in heartbreak, toxicity, betrayal, lying, and vicious circles.   

Particularly when those certain people show up at your best friends wedding, and try to get you to cheat on your boyfriend and you have to explain to them what a toxic individual they are. 



But that's just me, I guess.

What stood out the most between those two(Luke and Babs) is that their relationship and love felt real, it was supportive, and it wasn't toxic.  She wasn't playing the trope of the girl pining over a guy that has been toxic to her the majority of their relationship till he finally "gets it".   Nor was she playing the trope of someone drawn to other hurt people for no other reason than 'they are shirtless and they deal with internal trauma too!' as being the baseline of their chemistry or 'attraction'.  The things that Luke and Babs dealt with in terms of drama, didn't have to do with problems they had with each other, or involve hurting each other.  And they seemed to best have the handle on the hero side and the personal side when with one another.  That stood out the most because it was the best relationship Babs had ever had to that point and there was no reason why they would break up.  Which is why new writers decided to do it off-screen and give no legitimate reason for it whatsoever. 

But now she's back in the same vicious circle with Dick in a comic that everyone the last time I read it was praising Dick like he was the messiah of Gotham City, which considering his history and how he'd treated Babs across their comic lives, I stopped reading soon after.  But alas. Some people just want relationships filled with drama it seems.  Whereas I prefer the drama Babs deals with NOT be that her boyfriend is a toxic sunamagun.  But alas.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

There you have it, Dick can't be Barbara's supporting character, Luke can. But in the end, no one cares about him and Barbara is more prominent as a support in Nightwing than in Batgirls or Birds of Prey.
So ending their relationship to invest in someone like Luke or even Ted (as some prefer) would be bad for the character, who would lose space. As much I love Dick and Helena, I recognize that Dick and Babs is a big business and well established even in other media.

----------


## Majesty

> There you have it, Dick can't be Barbara's supporting character, Luke can. But in the end, no one cares about him and Barbara is more prominent as a support in Nightwing than in Batgirls or Birds of Prey.
> So ending their relationship to invest in someone like Luke or even Ted (as some prefer) would be bad for the character, who would lose space. As much I love Dick and Helena, I recognize that Dick and Babs is a big business and well established even in other media.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but in what other media is Dick/Babs a thing?  In BTAS and Timmverse Barbara considered Dick a schoolyard crush and wound up with Bruce (much as people hate that).  In Teen Titans Robin was with Starfire. In the DC Animated films, Dick was again with Starfire.  In the Arkham video games Barbara was with Tim. In Injustice, Dick was with Starfire again.  In the Harley Quinn animated series Nightwing is referenced as being with Tarantula during that time. somewhere around the time when he let her kill Blockbuster.  In Teen Titans GO, Robin is still with Starfire. In the Titans Show, Dick is with Starfire again. 

So in what other media besides currently in the comics is Dick/Babs a main thing??  Just wondering.

----------


## Godlike13

Kind of says a lot that the most interesting thing to happen in that relationship is Dick showing up.




> Correct me if I'm wrong, but in what other media is Dick/Babs a thing?  In BTAS and Timmverse Barbara considered Dick a schoolyard crush and wound up with Bruce (much as people hate that).  In Teen Titans Robin was with Starfire. In the DC Animated films, Dick was again with Starfire.  In the Arkham video games Barbara was with Tim. In Injustice, Dick was with Starfire again.  In the Harley Quinn animated series Nightwing is referenced as being with Tarantula during that time. somewhere around the time when he let her kill Blockbuster.  In Teen Titans GO, Robin is still with Starfire. In the Titans Show, Dick is with Starfire again. 
> 
> So in what other media besides currently in the comics is Dick/Babs a main thing??  Just wondering.


Dick and Bas was a “thing” in BTAS, TTGo, the Titans Tv show, and most recently Gotham Knights.

----------


## SomeRandomSmartA55

My controversial opinions:

Batman is one of my least favorite members of the BatfamilyTim Drake & Stephanie Brown should be married; pairing Tim up with Bernard is the dumbest decision anyone has ever made with his character since "The Drake" (not being Tim bi, that's okay, very poorly executed tho)Damian Wayne should be Gay and should date Jon Kent (Let Bruce & Clark be in-laws dammit!)Lucius Fox has too many kids who took on a bat-mantleDavid Zavimbe is the better BatwingKathy Kane & Bette Kane deserve betterHelena Wayne should become a part of the mainline DC universeBarbara Gordon should have stayed in the wheelchairJason Todd is hotter than Dick Grayson

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but in what other media is Dick/Babs a thing?  In BTAS and Timmverse Barbara considered Dick a schoolyard crush and wound up with Bruce (much as people hate that).  In Teen Titans Robin was with Starfire. In the DC Animated films, Dick was again with Starfire.  In the Arkham video games Barbara was with Tim. In Injustice, Dick was with Starfire again.  In the Harley Quinn animated series Nightwing is referenced as being with Tarantula during that time. somewhere around the time when he let her kill Blockbuster.  In Teen Titans GO, Robin is still with Starfire. In the Titans Show, Dick is with Starfire again. 
> 
> So in what other media besides currently in the comics is Dick/Babs a main thing??  Just wondering.


Actually in BTAS Barbara never stayed with Bruce, it is speaking in Batman Beyond and shown only in the comics. In Young Justice they are together, the Titans series did not escape that either, Teen Titans Go too.

----------


## Majesty

> Actually in BTAS Barbara never stayed with Bruce, it is speaking in Batman Beyond and shown only in the comics. In Young Justice they are together, the Titans series did not escape that either, Teen Titans Go too.


Batman Beyond is connected to BTAS isn't it?  Either way, Barbara and Dick don't wind up together.  

Is Young Justice the only series where they are actually together?  In Titans and in TTG the primary/main romance for Robin is Starfire, as in the one he is constantly in, towards, or endgame.

It seems like Young Justice is the only show Dick and Babs are together as their main relationship and it isn't regulated to "they dated once, didn't work."




> Dick and Bas was a “thing” in BTAS, TTGo, the Titans Tv show, and most recently Gotham Knights.


It was a "thing" but they didn't stay together as Babs was always shown to be interested in Bruce. Despite people disliking that Timm has kept that consistent in every Batman series he's worked on.  It's the very reason... *"that"* scene appears in The Killing Joke.  If Timm wasn't working on that.. I can guarantee you it wouldn't have happened.  The Titans TV show main romance with Robin is Starfire. And I haven't played Gotham Knights yet. But they're currently dating in it?

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Batman Beyond is connected to BTAS isn't it?  Either way, Barbara and Dick don't wind up together.  
> 
> Is Young Justice the only series where they are actually together?  In Titans and in TTG the primary/main romance for Robin is Starfire, as in the one he is constantly in, towards, or endgame.
> 
> It seems like Young Justice is the only show Dick and Babs are together as their main relationship and it isn't regulated to "they dated once, didn't work."
> 
> 
> 
> It was a "thing" but they didn't stay together as Babs was always shown to be interested in Bruce. Despite people disliking that Timm has kept that consistent in every Batman series he's worked on.  It's the very reason... *"that"* scene appears in The Killing Joke.  If Timm wasn't working on that.. I can guarantee you it wouldn't have happened.  The Titans TV show main romance with Robin is Starfire. And I haven't played Gotham Knights yet. But they're currently dating in it?


So Barbara should stay with Bruce.

----------


## Majesty

> So Barbara should stay with Bruce.


I'm saying in anything Batman that Timm works on, Barbara always winds up with him instead of Dick. So whatever happens in BTAS, BTNAS, Batman Beyond the storyline (at least in Timm's Batverse) is that Barbara considers Dick a schoolyard crush, and Bruce as the person she is really in love with.  Some people hate it, but that's the pairing that Timm prefers for one reason or another.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

The main point I was making though is that it seems that there's barely any outside media where Babs and Dick are an endgame couple.  It seems only Young Justice and Gotham Knights are doing it, although I don't know if they're "dated before but it didn't work" in Gotham Knights, or currently dating.   

Essentially the only outside-comics media where Dick and Babs are happening/in a relationship is a series where Starfire didn't/won't appear (Young Justice).

----------


## Felipe Silveira

Endgame will never be, currently not even Peter and MJ are together. If you have an endgame, and you end all the drama, you lose the conflict that a couple brings. It turns into a boring couple, like Ollie and Dinah, Jessica and Luke Cage (the coolest thing that happened to Jessica in the last 10 years was her kissing Matt) or worse, Reed and Sue(only cool when Namor shows up).
And yet, in the timeline of BTAS and Batman Beyond, Dick and Barbara end up together.

----------


## mathew101281

Batman has to many villains. He has so many villains that seem redundant. Do you really need clue-master and Riddler? Im starting to think having a small rogues gallery of 6 or 7 villains that are well fleshed out and interesting is better then having a huge rogues gallery of canon fodder villains that no body knows and will probably never be used much. Even in big galleries like Batmans you really only have about 9 or so villains that are used with any degree of regularity.

----------


## Majesty

> Endgame will never be, currently not even Peter and MJ are together. If you have an endgame, and you end all the drama, you lose the conflict that a couple brings. It turns into a boring couple, like Ollie and Dinah, Jessica and Luke Cage (the coolest thing that happened to Jessica in the last 10 years was her kissing Matt) or worse, Reed and Sue(only cool when Namor shows up).
> *And yet, in the timeline of BTAS and Batman Beyond, Dick and Barbara end up together.*


No, in that timeline Barbara ultimately ends up with Bruce. She even tells Terry in Batman Beyond that Dick was just "puppy love", but she ultimately decided to be with Bruce as more than bf/gf. Which Barbara said Dick never understood nor got over.

----------


## Godlike13

> It was a "thing" but they didn't stay together as Babs was always shown to be interested in Bruce. Despite people disliking that Timm has kept that consistent in every Batman series he's worked on.  It's the very reason... *"that"* scene appears in The Killing Joke.  If Timm wasn't working on that.. I can guarantee you it wouldn't have happened.  The Titans TV show main romance with Robin is Starfire. And I haven't played Gotham Knights yet. But they're currently dating in it?


Bruce and Babs didn’t stay together either, hell they weren’t even actually ever shown together, just because Timm was fixated on Bruce banging every female in his proximity doesn’t mean Dick and Babs wasn’t a thing. What’s more they were also a thing in the Titans TV series (big part of season 3), shown in TTgo, up front in YJ, and heavily referenced in Gotham Knights. Just because they don’t end up married with kids in them all doesn’t mean they haven’t been a thing in various other media. They are each others most common love interest across all media at this point.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> No, in that timeline Barbara ultimately ends up with Bruce. She even tells Terry in Batman Beyond that Dick was just "puppy love", but she ultimately decided to be with Bruce as more than bf/gf. Which Barbara said Dick never understood nor got over.


In Batman Beyond she is married to another guy, how was she and Bruce the endgame? And in the comics that continued, she and Dick stay together.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Bruce and Babs didn’t stay together either, hell they weren’t even actually ever shown together, just because Timm was fixated on Bruce banging every female in his proximity doesn’t mean Dick and Babs wasn’t a thing. What’s more they were also a thing in the Titans TV series (big part of season 3), shown in TTgo, up front in YJ, and heavily referenced in Gotham Knights. Just because they don’t end up married with kids in them all doesn’t mean they haven’t been a thing in various other media. They are each others most common love interest across all media at this point.


Diana also had to serve Bruce Timm's pleasure.

----------


## Majesty

> In Batman Beyond she is married to another guy, how was she and Bruce the endgame? And in the comics that continued, she and Dick stay together.



Essentially this in the Timmverse 

Her and Dick dated 
She gets with Bruce while dating Dick 
Her and Dick stay together 
She eventually leaves Dick when she realizes it's just puppy love
She gets with Bruce 
Dick becomes Nightwing
She still stays with Bruce
Her and Bruce become engaged/married.  

Eventually Bruce can't give up being Batman, so they separate. 
She winds up marrying someone that is neither Bruce nor Dick in her old age. 

Essentially in the Timm-verse the "serious" relationship she has is with Bruce, and the only thing she considers her time with Dick to be is "puppy love".  So no, they aren't the serious relationship in the Timm-verse. That was with Bruce and then with her eventual husband.




> Diana also had to serve Bruce Timm's pleasure.


Yeah, a lot of the Wonder Woman x Bruce Wayne stuff started during the Justice League series. A pairing I actually am quite fond of tbh.

----------


## Godlike13

Whats more Dick and Babs was the only romantic relationship we actually got to see in BTAS with Babs. Her relationship with Bruce was just a mention, and her husband was just im with this dude now. We didn't actually see those relationships. Which is one of the reasons why its what popularized Dick and Babs as a romance despite where the show ultimately took them. 

And no she didn't get with Bruce while dating Dick. Dick and Babs broke up when Dick quit, the infamous punch, and apparently never got back together. Not sure where you are getting she married Bruce. Its was mentioned that they got together at some point, but they never went into detail. Which just goes to show how serious it was.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Essentially this in the Timmverse 
> 
> Her and Dick dated 
> She gets with Bruce while dating Dick 
> Her and Dick stay together 
> She eventually leaves Dick when she realizes it's just puppy love
> She gets with Bruce 
> Dick becomes Nightwing
> She still stays with Bruce
> ...


If it had actually bothered to go anywhere, and make something meaningful on both sides (not just Diana gushing over him), I'd be more inclined to like it now.
But Bruce Timm even had Batman cuck (no other way to put it) Superman when he dated Lois for a time. Timm's version of Batman is the definition of Gary Stue, and didn't need to do a thing to get even the most respectable female characters tripping over themselves to get into his pants. Even Cheetah. CHEETAH, is included in that!

----------


## Felipe Silveira

In Batman Beyond it's just said they had something and there's a picture. In the comics, which didn't improve anything, Dick returns to Gotham and is dating Barbara. Barbara finds out she's pregnant, Bruce even wishes Dick happiness, but Barbara says by the time, it's before she and Dick got back.
Barbara loses the baby, Dick fights with Bruce and leaves the city.
After that Barbara never stayed with Bruce again, and married another guy whose name I don't remember.
With Terry as Batman, Dick reappears in Gotham as "Nick Fury", I don't remember what happened to Barbara's husband but Dick and she end up together. The end.

----------


## Majesty

> If it had actually bothered to go anywhere, and make something meaningful on both sides (not just Diana gushing over him), I'd be more inclined to like it now.
> But Bruce Timm even had Batman cuck (no other way to put it) Superman when he dated Lois for a time. Timm's version of Batman is the definition of Gary Stue, and didn't need to do a thing to get even the most respectable female characters tripping over themselves to get into his pants. Even Cheetah. CHEETAH, is included in that!


We have Timm to thank for "Because I'm Batman." becoming the answer to everything essentially.

----------


## Majesty

> In Batman Beyond it's just said they had something and there's a picture. In the comics, which didn't improve anything, Dick returns to Gotham and is dating Barbara. Barbara finds out she's pregnant, Bruce even wishes Dick happiness, but Barbara says by the time, it's before she and Dick got back.
> Barbara loses the baby, Dick fights with Bruce and leaves the city.
> After that Barbara never stayed with Bruce again, and married another guy whose name I don't remember.
> With Terry as Batman, Dick reappears in Gotham as "Nick Fury", I don't remember what happened to Barbara's husband but Dick and she end up together. The end.


In Batman beyond Barbara full out confirms that she chose Bruce over Dick and became more than "a girlfriend" with him.  




0:42 Seconds 

Terry: So you and Dick Grayson, like, dated? 
Barbara: In college. Puppy love. Later on we just never talked about it. 
Terry: People should communicate more. 
Barbara: Dick finally got fed up living in Batman's shadow.  He decided to leave. He was hurt when I chose to stay behind with Bruce. 
Terry: As his partner. 
Barbara: *cheeky smirk* 
Terry: His girlfriend? 
Barbara: *takes a sip and gives a *super cheeky* smirk*
Terry: Whoa...

It doesn't get much clearer than that. 

She chose Bruce over Dick. She only considered Dick college puppy love, nothing more.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

I don't know why you cling to it so much, but ok, keep it then. A few seconds of dialogue from Batman Beyond.

----------


## JediBatman54

The Joker movie is the Darkest thing we will see in the Batman franchise in a Live Action movie a real life Joker would be like Jeffrey Dahmer or like John Wayne Gacy we will never see that tonality again in any Batman movie because it would be too Dark for the Super Heroes/Comic Book movie Genre lets be honest Batman and Super Heroes are characters that Kids see it i know the Batman franchise has a lot of potential for an more Adult Oriented Audience but i think if they go to for that route they will going to scare off the Child Consumers so not more money on Legos, Cartoons or Kids Merchandise thats why the Batman 2022 movie is less Dark compared to Joker 2019 because More Kids watch Batman 

 Who knows if Joker 2 Folie à Deux will have the same Dark tone or will be more Relaxed i think it will be less Dark than the first movie and would be a more typical Comic Book movie  

I think that in the end Joker 1 and Watchmen will be the Darkest movies of the Super Heroes Genre i dont consider Deadpool and Logan because Deadpool is more of a comedy and Logan is more of a fantasy i would have liked to see a Live Action Injustice movie, or a Live Action Rated R Batman movie but i dont think they will happen in today world either

----------


## Crabble

Tim isn't boring.

Not a fan of the story where Bruce benches Dick from being Robin after the latter gets shot at.

----------


## redmax99

> Tim isn't boring.
> 
> Not a fan of the story where Bruce benches Dick from being Robin after the latter gets shot at.


at least it better than dick getting fired at 15

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Tim isn't boring.
> 
> Not a fan of the story where Bruce benches Dick from being Robin after the latter gets shot at.


Tim is boring, so long as the stories lean into the super hero stuff, and not the noir.

When Bat comics are like they're supposed to be, Tim is the stoic bat-ass who can face down horrors without internalizing them.

----------


## Rac7d*

> In Batman beyond Barbara full out confirms that she chose Bruce over Dick and became more than "a girlfriend" with him.  
> 
> 
> 
> 0:42 Seconds 
> 
> Terry: So you and Dick Grayson, like, dated? 
> Barbara: In college. Puppy love. Later on we just never talked about it. 
> Terry: People should communicate more. 
> ...


You don’t seem grossed out enough about Batman being infatuated with somone he as an adult knew as child and watched grow up
This relationship is Bruce Times stain

----------


## godisawesome

If anything, Id argue its the sheer pervy and toxic way that professional creators view the idea of Bruce and Babs as an item that has kind for solidified it as a hated, unpopular, and _unworkable_ relationship, since it tends to require obvious character assassination of at least one member of the pairing, and sometimes both, a very off-putting way

Like, normally, a toxic ship tends to be more a case of naivety and apathetically overlooking problems with one or more members, and just plugging in a (still out of character) harmless personality into one member; thats why a lot of the Harley/Joker fans tend to talk about a kind hearted, angsty Joker who *doesnt* exist, but also *isnt* narcissistic and socipathically abusive towards Harley. It may be a trashy ship to support, but its still got some aspect of a wish-fulfillment to have a caring and loving partner.

In contrast, whenever Bruce Timm, his associates, or someone trying to follow him writes the relationship, it always becomes *about* the horrible power dynamics and implied depravity the relationship could have, and gets presented as the feature of the relationship, whether for pervy male fantasies or realistically flawed character drama that no one actually wants to follow through on with Bruce elsewhere though they do seem okay with screwing over Babss portrayal

People can take Bruce being an asshole to some extent, but steal you sons girlfriend/seduce your best friends daughter/manipulate a young protege into a sexual relationship levels of assholery really arent accepted, especially since BatDad and BatJerk with a Heart of Gold are more popular; hell, many fans cant even stand the Bruce is totally banging women and discarding them left, right and center to maintain his cover, dude! portrayal of Bruce because of both the foolishness required of him to do so (his scars, weird hours, etc.) as well as because of the moral implications (more does he not have empathy? criticism than prudishness.)

As for Babs I think most Babs fans would argue that making her the naive, manipulated young girl with a _crippling_ thing for much older men just _isnt Babs,_ and to an extent beyond the usual rejection of the portrayal of the girl in love with a bad boy in fanfiction archetype. Just look at The Killing Joke movie version of Babs - I dont think a single Babs fan can stand that movie, and largely because Babss characterization is what the film is screwing over and making vapid for the sake of that thing with Bruce.

----------


## Timothy Hunter

Tim far and away is the best Robin. We got to see him grow up from teenager to adult in his ongoing series that almost lasted 200 issues. Despite going on for 16 years and being handled by 5 different writers, each run on the book (aside from Jon Lewis) was surprisingly consistent from one to the next. 

I don't think that Tim Drake is the most complex character in the world, but the wealth of great stories under his belt makes him blow Damian and Jason out of the water. I like both Damian and Jason but we never got to see them grow up the same way we saw Tim. Jason died when he was in his tweens and then he was resurrected as an adult. Damian was utilized greatly in Morrison and Tomasi's Batman and Robin, but I feel we need a solo series starring him that lasts for a truly long time. 

If you were to argue with me that Dick Grayson was a better character I wouldn't argue with you. Dick was Robin for the first 43 years of that mantle's existence, but I much prefer his later years as Nightwing and Batman.

----------


## Mutant God

> It may be cliche, but tbh how healthy their relationship was.  Supportive, understanding, there wasn't much drama in terms of their relationship (unless it was something Dick caused).  I also thought they were adorable at her friend's wedding.



I wonder if Luke and Babs is the comic version of Babs and Sam Young from Batman Beyond?

----------


## WonderNight

> In Batman beyond Barbara full out confirms that she chose Bruce over Dick and became more than "a girlfriend" with him.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0:42 Seconds 
> 
> Terry: So you and Dick Grayson, like, dated? 
> Barbara: In college. Puppy love. Later on we just never talked about it. 
> ...


Wow! It would be so funny if dick and diana ended up together because of this hahaha. He who laughs last! 

Also is there more Bruce/babs content than dick/babs in out of comics/mainstream content?

----------


## Godlike13

The only actual Bruce/Babs content out of comics is that Killing Joke movie. Which pretty much just ensured there won't be anymore lol.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Bruce/Babs _may_ have worked in the context of her original pre-Crisis history, where she was already a grown woman and Bruce was in the vague late 20s/early 30s age bracket. And she wasn't a protégé of his. But that ship is long sailed. 

Timm pulling the trigger on it after re-contextualizing Barbara as being Dick's age (if not slightly younger?), dating Dick and becoming Batman's sidekick and him mentoring her makes it significantly more icky. BTAS worked because while Barbara was written as having a crush on Batman, it wasn't presented as serious or her main motivation.  It's notable I think that "Heart of Steel", "Shadow of the Bat" and "Batgirl Returns" were all written by a woman, Byrnne Chandler, who wrote Bruce as being oblivious to her crush while the story offers classic ship teasing between her and Dick (she seemingly can't stand him, they tease each other, they have some sweet moments right as her current more mature love interest/crush is revealed to be a crooked cop, etc). Then we got Timm getting to do more of his "vision" for them in TNBA and Beyond, and well...yeah.

Luckily Timm flew too close to the sun with TKJ, and we likely won't have to suffer through it again.

----------


## godisawesome

> Bruce/Babs _may_ have worked in the context of her original pre-Crisis history, where she was already a grown woman and Bruce was in the vague late 20s/early 30s age bracket. And she wasn't a protégé of his. But that ship is long sailed. 
> 
> Timm pulling the trigger on it after re-contextualizing Barbara as being Dick's age (if not slightly younger?), dating Dick and becoming Batman's sidekick and him mentoring her makes it significantly more icky. BTAS worked because while Barbara was written as having a crush on Batman, it wasn't presented as serious or her main motivation.  It's notable I think that "Heart of Steel", "Shadow of the Bat" and "Batgirl Returns" were all written by a woman, Byrnne Chandler, who wrote Bruce as being oblivious to her crush while the story offers classic ship teasing between her and Dick (she seemingly can't stand him, they tease each other, they have some sweet moments right as her current more mature love interest/crush is revealed to be a crooked cop, etc). Then we got Timm getting to do more of his "vision" for them in TNBA and Beyond, and well...yeah.
> 
> Luckily Timm flew too close to the sun with TKJ, and we likely won't have to suffer through it again.


Yeah, like I said earlier, the problem with Bruce/Babs is the horrifyingly disgusting way that it’s treated by guys like Timm, in particular because guys like Timm helped make the modern idea of Babs’s first years in Gotham, and thus helped to de-age Babs, make her Dick’s peer, and make her one of Bruce’s protégés - and thus set it up where the relationship kind of couldn’t escape unfortunate implications and problematic power dynamics… and that’s before Timm sort of revealed that he and his buddies _like_ those same problematic elements.

It’s sort of a situation where it wasn’t that problematic in the initial portrayal from the comics, and now it sort of “has” to be.

----------


## marhawkman

> Yeah, like I said earlier, the problem with Bruce/Babs is the horrifyingly disgusting way that it’s treated by guys like Timm, in particular because guys like Timm helped make the modern idea of Babs’s first years in Gotham, and thus helped to de-age Babs, make her Dick’s peer, and make her one of Bruce’s protégés - and thus set it up where the relationship kind of couldn’t escape unfortunate implications and problematic power dynamics… and that’s before Timm sort of revealed that he and his buddies _like_ those same problematic elements.
> 
> It’s sort of a situation where it wasn’t that problematic in the initial portrayal from the comics, and now it sort of “has” to be.


well, look at the old Adam West Batman.  Babs was more of an equal to Batman, and Robin was... Batman's teen sidekick.

----------


## godisawesome

> well, look at the old Adam West Batman.  Babs was more of an equal to Batman, and Robin was... Batman's teen sidekick.


Yeah; and when the comic version of Babs showed up, she wasn’t threatening to steal Batman’s sidekick’s _heart_, she was threatening to steal Batman’s _sidekick_. She was also a Congresswoman for a while, putting her in her later 20’s, not that far behind Bruce at all.

…Then came the 90’s, where Timm and others contributed to making audiences think of her as a much younger character, and where her and Dick were set up as a fairly organic and intuitive pairing, so much so the comics dragged Babs even before the New 52, making her only a couple of years older than Dick at most, while Bruce was allowed to age up more and more.

Fact of the matter is that the 60’s show did it really determine that much about Babs at all, and thus isn’t really worth using as a basis for how Babs and Bruce should interact.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Yeah; and when the comic version of Babs showed up, she wasn’t threatening to steal Batman’s sidekick’s _heart_, she was threatening to steal Batman’s _sidekick_...


If you're talking about this cover:that's not really what happened.
*spoilers:*
It was a temporary thing Babs and Dick pulled because Bruce was going to be out of action for a little while due to an illness.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## godisawesome

> If you're talking about this cover:that's not really what happened.
> *spoilers:*
> It was a temporary thing Babs and Dick pulled because Bruce was going to be out of action for a little while due to an illness.
> *end of spoilers*


Actually, I was thinking of some other one I vaguely remember where Batgirl’s on a bike and Batman’s in the Batmobile, both appealing to Robin to join them.

And I don't think that was ever an actual plot of a comic - that was still the “just put some confusing shit on a cover, write the story next” era of the comics… but I still think it says something about that era that Batgirl was presented on the covers as more “girl Batman” than “girl Robin.”

----------


## MajorHoy

> Actually, I was thinking of some other one I vaguely remember where Batgirl’s on a bike and Batman’s in the Batmobile, both appealing to Robin to join them.


The first page for that issue whose cover I posted:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah, like I said earlier, the problem with Bruce/Babs is the horrifyingly disgusting way that it’s treated by guys like Timm, in particular because guys like Timm helped make the modern idea of Babs’s first years in Gotham, and thus helped to de-age Babs, make her Dick’s peer, and make her one of Bruce’s protégés - and thus set it up where the relationship kind of couldn’t escape unfortunate implications and problematic power dynamics… and that’s before Timm sort of revealed that he and his buddies _like_ those same problematic elements.
> 
> It’s sort of a situation where it wasn’t that problematic in the initial portrayal from the comics, and now it sort of “has” to be.


There really is a direct line between Timm writing in a gross pseudo love triangle between Dick, Babs and Bruce, and now the recurring tendency across media for her to be paired up with Dick, Bruce, Jason or Tim (and probably Damian eventually) as it suits the authors. 

I guess we could say de-aging her and making her Dick's love interest to begin with maybe got the ball rolling. But the execution of that still respected Barbara as an independent vigilante with her own motivations to become Batgirl. Again, having a woman write the episodes that established Batgirl, her motivations and her burgeoning romance with Dick probably helped with the execution and gave the dynamic she and Dick have as peers more staying power than it otherwise would have.

----------


## marhawkman

> There really is a direct line between Timm writing in a gross pseudo love triangle between Dick, Babs and Bruce, and now the recurring tendency across media for her to be paired up with Dick, Bruce, Jason or Tim (and probably Damian eventually) as it suits the authors. 
> 
> I guess we could say de-aging her and making her Dick's love interest to begin with maybe got the ball rolling. But the execution of that still respected Barbara as an independent vigilante with her own motivations to become Batgirl. Again, having a woman write the episodes that established Batgirl, her motivations and her burgeoning romance with Dick probably helped with the execution and gave the dynamic she and Dick have as peers more staying power than it otherwise would have.


I would say de-aging her was the problem from the get-go and the rest was collateral damage.

----------


## Godlike13

De-aging her was fine. She doesn't have to bang Batman.

----------


## MajorHoy

> I would say de-aging her was the problem from the get-go and the rest was collateral damage.


De-aging her for the animated series was one thing.

Then going back and de-aging her for the comic books afterwords was more of a problem.

----------


## hareluyafan1

> On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague?


 Thankfully no. In fact right after Tim is (seemingly) cured of the Ebola-Gulf A virus there's a scene where he talks to Ariana Dzerchenko on the phone to reassure her that he's okay. We see that Ariana and her family are perfectly fine. It's a really sweet moment.

----------


## Tzigone

> Thankfully no. In fact right after Tim is (seemingly) cured of the Ebola-Gulf A virus there's a scene where he talks to Ariana Dzerchenko on the phone to reassure her that he's okay. We see that Ariana and her family are perfectly fine. It's a really sweet moment.


His friends still appeared some until Tim was made to go to private school by his father (I understand Jack's reasoning, given Tim's sneaking out, being dangerous places, disappearing for days, and either giving no explanation or lying about it).  I recall a good-bye get-together between Tim and his buddies. I liked those buddies better than the private-school buddies.  I remember when Tim decided to break up with Ariana. He was going to do so by letter, but Alfred told him that was cowardly and he should do so in person.  But then Ariana broke up with him first.

FTR, I don't Babs de-aged into Bruce's protege, and I don't like her sleeping with him either.

----------


## hareluyafan1

> His friends still appeared some until Tim was made to go to private school by his father (I understand Jack's reasoning, given Tim's sneaking out, being dangerous places, disappearing for days, and either giving no explanation or lying about it).  I recall a good-bye get-together between Tim and his buddies. I liked those buddies better than the private-school buddies.  I remember when Tim decided to break up with Ariana. He was going to do so by letter, but Alfred told him that was cowardly and he should do so in person.  But then Ariana broke up with him first.


 Alfred was correct. He was epic there.

 Also, controversial opinion: I like Ariana best out of all Tim's significant others.

----------


## Agent Z

There are two versions of Dick Grayson. There's the one from the comics whose anger issues and control freak tendencies rival that of Bruce. And there's the fandom version who's an eternal optimist that sleeps with anything that moves.

----------


## Godlike13

There's many versions of Dick Grayson. Thats one of his best aspects, that he grew up and went through different phases as people do. From laughing kid dare devil, to angsty uptight teenager, to confident relaxed grown up.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

I prefer Barbara being at least 3 years older than Dick, and Jason's age doesn't make sense, he's an anomaly being closer to Dick than Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason's age doesn't make sense, he's an anomaly being closer to Dick than Tim.


I think Jason and Tim should about the same age, with Jason just looking older than he is, and Tim looking younger.

----------


## Jackalope89

I prefer Jason being more in the middle between Dick and Tim. Young enough for Dick to have a good amount of time as Robin before going to the Titans, but old enough that he can act as the older brother to Tim when needed, with a few more years of experience.

----------


## phonogram12

As much as I appreciate some of the groundwork he laid, Chuck Dixon was a paint-by-numbers kind of writer.

----------


## redmax99

> I think Jason and Tim should about the same age, with Jason just looking older than he is, and Tim looking younger.


jason age is the one thats most confusing if were going by before retcons. jason is said to be 6 years younger than dick, tim is 5 years young than dick if we go by the event at the circus dick was 8 tim was 3 jason is younger than both of them. now if we go by DC offical comic stats bruce got jason at 9 which means bruce let his 15 year old child leave home to live wherever he please. 

and yes jason and cass are two years older than tim and duke

----------


## phonogram12

> jason age is the one thats most confusing if were going by before retcons. jason is said to be 6 years younger than dick, tim is 5 years young than dick if we go by the event at the circus dick was 8 tim was 3 jason is younger than both of them. now if we go by DC offical comic stats bruce got jason at 9 which means bruce let his 15 year old child leave home to live wherever he please. 
> 
> and yes jason and cass are two years older than tim and duke


This is why head canon is the best canon. Even if DC is willing to give you a straight answer, it'll either be outdated an hour from now or won't make any sense to begin with.

----------


## Aahz

> jason age is the one thats most confusing if were going by before retcons. jason is said to be 6 years younger than dick, tim is 5 years young than dick if we go by the event at the circus dick was 8 tim was 3 jason is younger than both of them. now if we go by DC offical comic stats bruce got jason at 9 which means bruce let his 15 year old child leave home to live wherever he please.


Dick wasn't 8 the Batman comics from the time "Batman Year 3" was published has Dick Typically between 10 and 12, when Batman took him in, with 12 beeing the age that fits best with the retroactive comics that are actually set at the beginning of his career as Robin. 

Jason was also typically 12 when he became Robin, the age 9 is from some encyclopedia that I wouldn't really see as canon.

I you go by the post crisis continuity, Jason is something between the same age and two years older than Tim, depending what comics you use to calculate the difference.

----------


## redmax99

> Dick wasn't 8 the Batman comics from the time "Batman Year 3" was published has Dick Typically between 10 and 12, when Batman took him in, with 12 beeing the age that fits best with the retroactive comics that are actually set at the beginning of his career as Robin. 
> 
> Jason was also typically 12 when he became Robin, the age 9 is from some encyclopedia that I wouldn't really see as canon.
> 
> I you go by the post crisis continuity, Jason is something between the same age and two years older than Tim, depending what comics you use to calculate the difference.


 the writers yo-yo between 8 and 12 for dick they been doing it since zero hour just recently in a batman comic he was 8 again.

as for the jason 9 thing its been publish in different kinds of book from batman 100 history book to the encyclopedia and was confirm by dennis o neil in a letter to the writer back in the day.

----------


## Zaresh

Regarding ages for Dick, Jason and Tim, I've just found this old post that seems like a nice reasoning for their likely ages. It's a pre New52 time logic, but I think it may help here.
https://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/p...-that-jason-is

----------


## Tzigone

> I prefer Jason being more in the middle between Dick and Tim. Young enough for Dick to have a good amount of time as Robin before going to the Titans, but old enough that he can act as the older brother to Tim when needed, with a few more years of experience.


I have a hate on for not letting Jason and Tim be peers and an absolute loathing of Jason being closer to Dick's age than Tim's. There is, IMO, zero reason for Jason to act an older brother to Tim or even for them to have _that_ much of relationship. Dick canonically had that role (to Tim, and not to post-COIE Jason, and that's okay, too).  I'm not real big on all the Batfam being actually family-like to each other, either.  I like Spoiler having a relationship with Tim and Cass, but not so much with Dick or Jason or Barbara (I'm not fond of Steph as Batgirl at all). I like Barbara having a stronger relationship with Dick and Cass and not Bruce or the others, and so forth and so.  I think the dynamics I like all existed (though not all at the same time), but have since been overwritten by changes I do not care for.

----------


## Aahz

> the writers yo-yo between 8 and 12 for dick they been doing it since zero hour just recently in a batman comic he was 8 again.
> 
> as for the jason 9 thing its been publish in different kinds of book from batman 100 history book to the encyclopedia and was confirm by dennis o neil in a letter to the writer back in the day.


The only source I know for the age 9 is "the Essential Batman Encyclopedia".

Do you have source or link for the letter?

When it comes to Dick age in relation to Tim's I think it is the best go to the actual comics were that was established (Year 3 and Lonley Place of Dying) and I think they went with 11.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I wouldn't mind three jokers getting adapted by Reeves and Pattinson. It's a big swing for the Joker and a way to lean into a horror vibe.

----------


## Aahz

> I wouldn't mind three jokers getting adapted by Reeves and Pattinson. It's a big swing for the Joker and a way to lean into a horror vibe.


I don't see how this should work, since they had to make Killing Joke, Death in the Family and Under the Red Hood first.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I don't see how this should work, since they had to make Killing Joke, Death in the Family and Under the Red Hood first.


Most of the movies and the TV shows are loose adaptations. I'm just looking for Pattinson going up against multiple jokers. Joker trying to create more of himself through tossing people in the chemicals interests me.

----------


## Timothy Hunter

> As much as I appreciate some of the groundwork he laid, Chuck Dixon was a paint-by-numbers kind of writer.


I respectfully disagree. I think Dixon is really exceptional with fight scenes I also think what makes Dixon's comic distinct is that his stories tend to be a bit more grounded than the other Bat writers relatively speaking.

----------


## phonogram12

> I respectfully disagree. I think Dixon is really exceptional with fight scenes I also think what makes Dixon's comic distinct is that his stories tend to be a bit more grounded than the other Bat writers relatively speaking.


Beyond Tim Drake (which I do think he did a good job on. At least in that first mini), I think a lot of his characterization is rather flat, tbh. But, hey, your mileage may vary.  :Smile:

----------


## godisawesome

I’ve sort of come around to thinking that Dixon was at his best when paired with O’Neill as his editor, who helped him emphasize his real strengths, but Dixon was still so thoroughly competent in his heyday that pretty much everyone has had to put up with subpar writers that suck in comparison and longed for something as consistent as his stuff was.

But yeah, I do think that O’Neill knew Dixon was at his best when either developing a cast and setting or making the skeleton of the larger crossovers with other writers. I think O’Neill being gone when Dixon made his brief comeback at DC likely lead to a slight drop in Dixon’s performance then - again, Dixon was better than most journeyman and pretty much all the lickspittles that Didio would give too many chances too even at his worst, but I’ve read both some of his old non-Batman stuff (Green Hornet from NOW! Comics) and his later stuff at DC and GIJoe, and he tends to be more formulaic and less well-paced when not paired with O’Neill.

----------


## Jiminy

In regards to the Joker's origin story, I prefer the version from Mask of the Phantasm, where rather than the Red Hood, he was just a normal, unremarkable plainclothes gangster you'd pass by on the street without a second thought. I find it just makes him more mysterious and frightening.

Basically, I picked the middle card, except that I prefer him to be completely nameless. 

https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net...HqkNUNpJC1w&oe

----------


## kcomics

> I've seen (and participated in) threads akin to this one in other boards on this forum, and thought it might be a good idea to stick one up here. Basically the premise is to post opinions about members of the batfamily, or the behind the scenes aspects, that you have realized are controversial opinions to have around these-- or most-- parts. Here are a few examples, and some of my own:
> 
> Bruce Wayne is hardly interesting; the rest of the batfamily are the more interesting ones.
> Damian Wayne is probably better off dead.
> Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is weak, whiny, and was an unnecessary character degradation.
> Scott Lobdell is the best writer for Red Hood and the Outlaws.
> I now consider Roy Harper and Starfire unofficial members of the batfamily.
> Cassandra Cain is vastly unappealing.
> The "Harley Quinn" series is trite and disgusting.
> ...


Orphan is an underused character with a lot of potential. 

Damian Wayne should have his own fan-made solo series to develop his character.  

Scott Lobdell IS one of the best Red Hood writers we've ever had. That arc at the end where Jason helps rehabilitate Duela was just golden.  

The Harley Quinn series is self-satire of the Batman franchise, but they do a somewhat decent job characterizing Harley, or at least it's better than some of her comics where she goes full Deadpool. The OOC Joker moments are also adorable. 

Bruce Wayne as Batman is fun; he just has to be paired with one of his villains, friends, lovers, or proteges for it to show. 

Duela Dent should be back on the Teen Titans; she is a fun character when she's written correctly, and an anti-hero Joker girl who is not Harley Quinn and is also a master of disguise is a nice concept. 

Batman: White Knight and some of the more famous Elseworlds' Joker stories should be adapted to animated movies. (Does DC have some kind of rule where they can't show the Joker as anything besides a villain in animation? Even Crisis on Two Earths had him blowing up himself to kill some bad guys, and he was clearly one of the good guys in that universe.) 

DC should hire and pay the fans to help them come up with good storylines for underused characters. I'd jump for the opportunity if DC had a Kindle Worlds series.

----------


## marhawkman

To add on to that...

Jade Nguyen and Roy Harper make a better couple than Batman and Catwoman.  :P

----------


## Jackalope89

> To add on to that...
> 
> Jade Nguyen and Roy Harper make a better couple than Batman and Catwoman.  :P


...Yeah, not gonna touch that one. I mean, Young Justice animated series is one thing. Comics version, well...

----------


## JediBatman54

Adam West was the most realistic version of Batman in Live Action and the best version in my opinion a real Batman will most likely look like that and not the Super Human Comic Book Fantasy like other Batman movies portray him this would be unpopular but for me i find the rest of all the Live Action Batman movies to be Generic and boring Super Hero movies i feel that the Batman character has to be reinvented so i can take him seriously again but still i like Batman more than the rest of other Super Heroes because Batman is a character that could exist in real life unlike Superman,Flash,Green Lantern etc although for a Batman to exist in real life as realistic as possible that Batman would be very different as how he is represented by the Comic Books and the movies

----------


## Will Evans

No one calls out Steph for getting Orpheus killed.
Or War Games in general.

----------


## MajorHoy

> No one calls out Steph for getting Orpheus killed.
> Or War Games in general.


I think that gets blamed more on bad writing / editors than on the character itself?

----------


## phonogram12

> I think that gets blamed more on bad writing / editors than on the character itself?


It's funny when sometimes the fans blame the writing and sometimes the fans blame the character. I mean, technically it's always the writing if you really stop and think about it because the characters can be written any which way they want because DC technically owns them. This generally shows character bias than any sort of point.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Steph got called out all the time for War Games pre-flashpoint.  But even with her time as Robin restored in recent years it doesn't look like War Games has been restored to continuity.

And that's for the best.  A number of the Bat-book writers hated War Games from the moment editorial first told them about the plan to have a big gang war in which Steph would be killed off.  This was not a story in which the writers were putting their hearts and souls because it was a story they never wanted to tell in the first place and were forced to by a shortsighted editorial with bad ideas and no room for argument.  The entire story is dependent on not only Steph, but Batman and Tim suffering from an inexcusable bout of plot-induced stupidity just to get started.

The way DC's current continuity works, the current Steph is not the same Steph who existed from 1992-2011.  She is an amalgamation of that Steph and the Nu-52 Steph with DC picking and choosing what parts of each should remain canon.  Her time as Robin was chosen to be canon, while her subsequent causing of a gang war has not, because current DC has no interest in revisiting a story which was so bad their own writers hated it before it was ever published.  Most DC characters are this weird amalgamation of pick and choose continuity right now and even stories as recent as Rebirth can no longer have happened exactly as they were originally written because of how screwy DC has been with continuity for the last 10 years.

----------


## marhawkman

> ...Yeah, not gonna touch that one. I mean, Young Justice animated series is one thing. Comics version, well...


That was more me hating on cat/bat. I actually totally get why people think Jade and Roy are horribly dysfunctional.  I was saying I think Batman and Catwoman is in it's own way worse.  :Stick Out Tongue: 



> Adam West was the most realistic version of Batman in Live Action and the best version in my opinion a real Batman will most likely look like that and not the Super Human Comic Book Fantasy like other Batman movies portray him this would be unpopular but for me i find the rest of all the Live Action Batman movies to be Generic and boring Super Hero movies i feel that the Batman character has to be reinvented so i can take him seriously again but still i like Batman more than the rest of other Super Heroes because Batman is a character that could exist in real life unlike Superman,Flash,Green Lantern etc although for a Batman to exist in real life as realistic as possible that Batman would be very different as how he is represented by the Comic Books and the movies


What I liked most about it? the relationship between Gordon and Batman.  Batman wasn't a cop, but the cops respected him and helped him.  a lot of the time cooperation was important to solving crimes.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

The cops loved Batman because they could get paid for not working with him around.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Steph got called out all the time for War Games pre-flashpoint.  But even with her time as Robin restored in recent years it doesn't look like War Games has been restored to continuity.
> 
> And that's for the best.  A number of the Bat-book writers hated War Games from the moment editorial first told them about the plan to have a big gang war in which Steph would be killed off.  This was not a story in which the writers were putting their hearts and souls because it was a story they never wanted to tell in the first place and were forced to by a shortsighted editorial with bad ideas and no room for argument.  The entire story is dependent on not only Steph, but Batman and Tim suffering from an inexcusable bout of plot-induced stupidity just to get started.
> 
> The way DC's current continuity works, the current Steph is not the same Steph who existed from 1992-2011.  She is an amalgamation of that Steph and the Nu-52 Steph with DC picking and choosing what parts of each should remain canon.  Her time as Robin was chosen to be canon, while her subsequent causing of a gang war has not, because current DC has no interest in revisiting a story which was so bad their own writers hated it before it was ever published.  Most DC characters are this weird amalgamation of pick and choose continuity right now and even stories as recent as Rebirth can no longer have happened exactly as they were originally written because of how screwy DC has been with continuity for the last 10 years.


Well, that goes for everyone right? Look Jason, so he did all those things but now it's okay, can he be part of the family? Dixon's Nightwing is back, but is Seeley's Nightwing too? Helena is black, but does she remember stories where she was white? Is Batman and Robin Eternal still worth it?

----------


## JediBatman54

> That was more me hating on cat/bat. I actually totally get why people think Jade and Roy are horribly dysfunctional.  I was saying I think Batman and Catwoman is in it's own way worse. 
> What I liked most about it? the relationship between Gordon and Batman.  Batman wasn't a cop, but the cops respected him and helped him.  a lot of the time cooperation was important to solving crimes.


I am sure that a Real Life Batman will most likely have no help from any police if in real life a policeman saw a man dressed like a Bat they probably would think he is crazy or mentally ill they will probably try to detain or arrest a man dressed like that in late night    a Real Life Batman probably wouldnt get help from a Jim Gordon since there are few Jim Gordons in the world and even more Jim Gordons who are cops

----------


## Aahz

> Helena is black, but does she remember stories where she was white? Is Batman and Robin Eternal still worth it?


I think currently she is just meant to be a tanned white. And she was anyway a really wired choice for character to race swap.

----------


## marhawkman

> I think currently she is just meant to be a tanned white. And she was anyway a really wired choice for character to race swap.


Yeah, I have to wonder if they're playing up the Sicilian angle to make her a bit darker skinned, but went overboard?  'cause well... people in that area tend to look tanned even if they don't actually tan.

----------


## Tzigone

> It's funny when sometimes the fans blame the writing and sometimes the fans blame the character. I mean, technically it's always the writing if you really stop and think about it because the characters can be written any which way they want because DC technically owns them. This generally shows character bias than any sort of point.


Didn't Dinah and Barbara start an actual war in early '00s BoP that basically got one page of coverage and that's it?  Or am I misremembering?  Certainly no blowback on them if it did happen.

I do kind of agree on character bias, but then it's also down to whether it made any kind of sense or was in way compatible with previous behaviors. Frankly Events have a strong tendency to do things for shock value and have characters behave in ways that are wildly inconsistent with previous characterization. Oh, and then there's when character A does something a dozen times and it turns out well, but then when character B does it, it turns out horribly.  And then B gets blamed and A doesn't even though there was equal chance of it going horribly everytime and it was only coincidence (or plot armor) that it worked for one and not the other.

----------


## Will Evans

So if War Games didn’t happen post-rebirth. Is Orpheus alive again?

----------


## exile001

> So if War Games didn’t happen post-rebirth. Is Orpheus alive again?


That's the dream. I always felt Orpheus had a lot of potential.

----------


## marhawkman

> Didn't Dinah and Barbara start an actual war in early '00s BoP that basically got one page of coverage and that's it?  Or am I misremembering?  Certainly no blowback on them if it did happen.
> 
> I do kind of agree on character bias, but then it's also down to whether it made any kind of sense or was in way compatible with previous behaviors. Frankly Events have a strong tendency to do things for shock value and have characters behave in ways that are wildly inconsistent with previous characterization. Oh, and then there's when character A does something a dozen times and it turns out well, but then when character B does it, it turns out horribly.  And then B gets blamed and A doesn't even though there was equal chance of it going horribly everytime and it was only coincidence (or plot armor) that it worked for one and not the other.


Especially, when one of them is Batman.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

The door is open for Orpheus to show up as if he's been there the entire time.  Until he does he remains one of the people who was erased by the Nu52 reboot and was never restored to continuity.  He never died because he never existed in the first place.  That's just how it is until a writer or editor remembers that there was a character named Orpheus before the Didio days.

----------


## kcomics

> I am sure that a Real Life Batman will most likely have no help from any police if in real life a policeman saw a man dressed like a Bat they probably would think he is crazy or mentally ill they will probably try to detain or arrest a man dressed like that in late night    a Real Life Batman probably wouldnt get help from a Jim Gordon since there are few Jim Gordons in the world and even more Jim Gordons who are cops


This is off-topic, but you can Google Phoenix Jones and the RLSHM and see how they did it. Superheroes are actually a nice concept to put in the real world, or at least they made it seem that way. I agree that we shouldn't have to rely on them, but it is nice to see humans acting in ways that are contrary to what is expected.

----------


## JediBatman54

I never understood why Joker was never caught or killed in the comics he literally has white skin from Chemical Acids in the comics they say that Joker uses makeup to make him look like a normal human and thats why he hide but cmon seriously how no one has seen a pale man before? i think Ledger and Phoenix versions of Joker make more sense with Joker being a regular man who uses make up so is more harder to find him if the comics were more realistic and a Villain gets caught or killed that means no more comics to sell

My ideal Batman would be something like the Punisher someone who had no mercy for the Criminals use the Bat suit to torture them something like Michael Keaton Batman but more realistic i truly want to see a Rated R Batman movie someday The Batman movie disappoint me i thought it was going to be more realistic or violent i hope they do a truly more realistic Batman movie someday and its Rated R like Joker movie

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> My ideal Batman would be something like the Punisher someone who had no mercy for the Criminals use the Bat suit to torture them something like Michael Keaton Batman but more realistic i truly want to see a Rated R Batman movie someday The Batman movie disappoint me i thought it was going to be more realistic or violent i hope they do a truly more realistic Batman movie someday and its Rated R like Joker movie


It wouldn't be Batman

----------


## JediBatman54

> It wouldn't be Batman


Elseworlds exist they could make a Batman movie like that similar to the Joker movie that is more experimental also Michael Keaton Batman killed he is not Batman too?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Elseworlds exist they could make a Batman movie like that similar to the Joker movie that is more experimental also Michael Keaton Batman killed he is not Batman too?


You could do a Black Label book exploring the 1930s Batman who was more lethal. Or explore it through Flashpoint Batman or Jason.

----------


## marhawkman

> I never understood why Joker was never caught or killed in the comics he literally has white skin from Chemical Acids in the comics they say that Joker uses makeup to make him look like a normal human and thats why he hide but cmon seriously how no one has seen a pale man before? i think Ledger and Phoenix versions of Joker make more sense with Joker being a regular man who uses make up so is more harder to find him if the comics were more realistic and a Villain gets caught or killed that means no more comics to sell


realistically... someone would probably have shot joker do death by now.  If not a cop then a rando gangster who got lucky.

----------


## JediBatman54

This is my headcanons Ledger Joker die shortly before Dark Knight Rises he died of natural causes in prison thats why they dont mention  him anymore and why Bruce no longer considers him a threat at the end of the trilogy

Leto DCEU Joker is Dick Grayson

If Phoenix Joker dies in Folie a Deux  that means the Bruce Wayne of the Joker World will never become Batman because having a Batman that would never meet Joker its ridiculous

Speaking about Phoenix Joker Arthur Gary and Randall worked with the Graysons at Circus events

The Batman from the Titans Universe is a Villain

The Alfred TV Show Pennyworth takes place in the Gotham Universe

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> This is my headcanon Ledger Joker die shortly before Dark Knight Rises he died of natural causes in prison thats why they dont mention  him anymore and why Bruce no longer considers him a threat at the end of the trilogy


I thought he got the death penalty but that works too.

----------


## Majesty

> There are two versions of Dick Grayson. There's the one from the comics whose anger issues and control freak tendencies rival that of Bruce. And there's the fandom version who's an eternal optimist that sleeps with anything that moves.




Then there's the current version of Dick Grayson in the comics.    Not Dick Grayson and is instead Superman in a Nightwing outfit.

----------


## phonogram12

> Then there's the current version of Dick Grayson in the comics.    Not Dick Grayson and is instead Superman in a Nightwing outfit.


How is he a Superman version? If anything, he's more the fandom version (although it seems as if he's exclusively sleeping with Babs at the moment).

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I'm glad Duke got his own ID from the start than being another Robin. I just wished he was given more of a run than the occasional backup.




> Then there's the current version of Dick Grayson in the comics.    Not Dick Grayson and is instead Superman in a Nightwing outfit.


From Taylor's run?

----------


## Avi

> Then there's the current version of Dick Grayson in the comics.    Not Dick Grayson and is instead Superman in a Nightwing outfit.


That's an insult to Superman. Clark has more brains than Taylor's Dick.

----------


## MajorHoy

> That's an insult to Superman. Clark has more brains than Taylor's Dick.


There a few different ways to read that sentence . . .   :EEK!:

----------


## phonogram12

> I'm glad Duke got his own ID from the start than being another Robin. I just wished he was given more of a run than the occasional backup.


Honestly? The only way he would've been given more of a run was if he was a Robin.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Honestly? The only way he would've been given more of a run was if he was a Robin.


Ehh probably but I don't care for the Robin mantle. I think the whole legacy character system needs an overhaul so I'm fine with Duke getting his own ID.

----------


## Odd Rödney

Batman should work like The Phantom. Bruce was the first, till he died. Dick was the second, till he retired, Tim was the third etc, etc. This would be way more interesting to me. 

You could have this grand mythology where the general public thinks the Batman is an immortal figure comparable to Superman and Wonder Woman. However, not because he's Bruce the freakin' Batgod but because the Batman, in _this_ context, is this ongoing legacy character. 

I liked it when Bruce "died" and Dick took on the role. I sincerely hoped that would be the new status quo for a good while until Dick hung up the cape and cowl and Tim got a shot. But, this was not to be the case and I think it's a shame.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Batman should work like The Phantom. Bruce was the first, till he died. Dick was the second, till he retired, Tim was the third etc, etc. This would be way more interesting to me. 
> 
> You could have this grand mythology where the general public thinks the Batman is an immortal figure comparable to Superman and Wonder Woman. However, not because he's Bruce the freakin' Batgod but because the Batman, in _this_ context, is this ongoing legacy character. 
> 
> I liked it when Bruce "died" and Dick took on the role. I sincerely hoped that would be the new status quo for a good while until Dick hung up the cape and cowl and Tim got a shot. But, this was not to be the case and I think it's a shame.


That approach fits DC as a whole. I think the Bronze Age should've just had Dick and his friends take over for their mentors. Having the Titan struggle with the 70s/80s era issues would've been perfect. Same with the New 52 and Future State.

----------


## Tzigone

> Ehh probably but I don't care for the Robin mantle. I think the whole legacy character system needs an overhaul so I'm fine with Duke getting his own ID.


I thought I was the only one who was not particularly fond of legacies.




> Batman should work like The Phantom. Bruce was the first, till he died. Dick was the second, till he retired, Tim was the third etc, etc. This would be way more interesting to me.


I deeply dislike it. Firstly, I get attached to characters, not mantles. So they are all dying very early (or retiring and not being main characters I can read about, at least).  Secondly, it just greatly diminishes the inheritors to me -  they can never do anything as great as stepping into a costume some else left behind.  They can never make their own names as great as the first gen.  They either remain sidekicks until death/retirement or just abandon the identities they built on their own because those just aren't as important as the ones the first gen created.

----------


## Odd Rödney

> I deeply dislike it. Firstly, I get attached to characters, not mantles. So they are all dying very early (or retiring and not being main characters I can read about, at least).  Secondly, it just greatly diminishes the inheritors to me -  they can never do anything as great as stepping into a costume some else left behind.  They can never make their own names as great as the first gen.  They either remain sidekicks until death/retirement or just abandon the identities they built on their own because those just aren't as important as the ones the first gen created.


Guess we agree to disagree then. Nothing wrong with that.

----------


## Alan2099

I think you loose a lot when your story goes from "parents died, swore vengeance, inspired by bat," to parents died, swore vengeance, inspired by this other guy who's parents died and swore vengeance,."

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I thought I was the only one who was not particularly fond of legacies.
> 
> I deeply dislike it. Firstly, I get attached to characters, not mantles. So they are all dying very early (or retiring and not being main characters I can read about, at least).  Secondly, it just greatly diminishes the inheritors to me -  they can never do anything as great as stepping into a costume some else left behind.  They can never make their own names as great as the first gen.  They either remain sidekicks until death/retirement or just abandon the identities they built on their own because those just aren't as important as the ones the first gen created.


I don't mind legacies. I just think they need an overhaul from a design standpoint. They feel like they come off an assembly line and often they feel undercooked as characters. So I rather they skip the Robin/aqualad stage and start out with more unique names and setups.




> I think you loose a lot when your story goes from "parents died, swore vengeance, inspired by bat," to parents died, swore vengeance, inspired by this other guy who's parents died and swore vengeance,."


Not really because most of Bruce's successors have their own reason to be Batman. Dick and Terry have revenge, Jean Paul has twisted faith and Jace has redemption. Damian is the only one with legacy as his reason.

----------


## JediBatman54

Batman definitely killed Joker at the end of Killing Joke
Killing Joke should always have been a Elseworld separate from the main canon so killing Joker shouldnt be a problem i dont like how in some Batman stories they want to make Killing Joke Canon just like Barbara always become Oracle by her being shot by Joker yes she was shot by him but that dont means the same events of Killing Joke happen

Penguin and Riddler become a Couple in the Gotham Universe after the show ends

i prefer Batman to be trained by Alfred it seems more realistic than him traveling around the World

i think Catwoman is a terrible love interest for Batman she is more like a Girl to have fun with but not anything serious

Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns Sequels is one of the worst comics i ever read feel like he was more trolling than continue the story

i dont have a problem with Barbara Gordon and Bruce being a Couple despite their age differences

i  want to see a Comic where Bruce dies permanently and how the Bat Family deals with it i think the video game Gotham Knights is something similar to that

----------


## exile001

> i prefer Batman to be trained by Alfred it seems more realistic than him traveling around the World


How is that more realistic? 

If Alfred already has all the skills Bruce would need, then Alfred himself could just be Batman. Or Robin. Lol.

Seriously, though, Batman is supposed to be a master in multiple disciplines of crime fighting. How would Alfred have all that knowledge? He was a soldier and, continuity dependent, the world's greatest super spy (ugh), but Bruce still needs real world experience.

----------


## Arsenal

I don’t mind Alfred being Bruce’s first teacher but I definitely wouldn’t want him to be the only one.

----------


## Tzigone

> i think Catwoman is a terrible love interest for Batman she is more like a Girl to have fun with but not anything serious


I hate the division of "girls you screw and girls you marry."  There are certainly reasons not to ship it, but that one doesn't work for me.




> i prefer Batman to be trained by Alfred it seems more realistic than him traveling around the World
> 			
> 		
> 
>  Seriously, though, Batman is supposed to be a master in multiple disciplines of crime fighting. How would Alfred have all that knowledge? He was a soldier and, continuity dependent, the world's greatest super spy (ugh), but Bruce still needs real world experience.


I like Alfred as the late-comer, meeting Bruce in adulthood (but I know it's not going to go back to that in canon).  I don't mind Bruce traveling and learning, but I *deeply*  dislike him learning from assassins and the like - people he should be trying to take down.  League of Assassins should definitely be something he only knows about after years on the job.  I also prefer Batman to not be a god-tier fighter.  Good, yes. Great, even.  Not top 20 in the world.  World's Best Detective,  not world's best martial artist.

----------


## Fergus

> Batman should work like The Phantom. Bruce was the first, till he died. Dick was the second, till he retired, Tim was the third etc, etc. This would be way more interesting to me. 
> 
> You could have this grand mythology where the general public thinks the Batman is an immortal figure comparable to Superman and Wonder Woman. However, not because he's Bruce the freakin' Batgod but because the Batman, in _this_ context, is this ongoing legacy character. 
> 
> I liked it when Bruce "died" and Dick took on the role. I sincerely hoped that would be the new status quo for a good while until Dick hung up the cape and cowl and Tim got a shot. But, this was not to be the case and I think it's a shame.


I feel that this a concept that fans who care more about reading their favs in certain story over what is logical pitch.

the truth is that if Batman worked like the Phantom then DC comics would have gone under once Dick Grayson's run as Batman ended. If not sooner.

I'm not a fan of anyone can be Batman. Dick Grayson made an entertaining Batman because he was so different to Bruce that it felt refreshing.

Terry makes an entertaining Batman because he is different and his setting is different.
Damian makes a somewhat entertaining Batman because he is sort of different from Bruce. Though modern day Bruce is so brutal that there's not much difference.
Damian is the batman who works alone that DC wants us to believe Bruce Wayne is thought the more violent.

I don't agree that Batman should be like the Phantom not just for real world reasons but because only one of the robins is different enough from Bruce to be truly innovative.

----------


## phonogram12

> I don’t mind Alfred being Bruce’s first teacher but I definitely wouldn’t want him to be the only one.


Likewise. I never liked the idea of Bruce ever only having one teacher (Ra's Al Ghul included).

----------


## Frontier

Alfred training Bruce only really works for, like, a smaller scale Bruce in the Earth One universe who isn't meant to be as capable or as competent (initially) as he generally is.

----------


## godisawesome

My current controversial opinion is that DC should have married Batman and Catwoman some time ago, treated it as a hard status quo change for a significant amount of time... and then after that preset, significant amount of time, have them have a fight or disagreement and become estranged to become "single" again... with the understanding this will become a stormy but at times surprisingly cohesive on-again, off-again monogamous relationship, where the fights prelude any sort of seeing other people before inevitably crashing back together again for ambiguous but passionately committed times.

Not a successful, happy, stable marriage, because that *does* clash with both characters... but also not one that has any "congenial breaks" because that sort of wastes the premise of the relationship, and the extra drama of constant tension would be far more filling.

----------


## Odd Rödney

> the truth is that if Batman worked like the Phantom then DC comics would have gone under once Dick Grayson's run as Batman ended. If not sooner.


Why do you think that, exactly? How could it possibly be that dramatic?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Why do you think that, exactly? How could it possibly be that dramatic?


It would've worked in the 70s and 80s but not today. The fandom is too niche and comics are more expensive. Plus comics are harder to find because the stores are dying out.

The future state characters would've worked better as a retool for the Earth One graphic novel line. It's a safer play than pissing off the Wednesday warrior crowd. But outside of Jace and Jo from Far Sector, most of them are undercooked as characters and rather forgettable.

----------


## Odd Rödney

> It would've worked in the 70s and 80s but not today. The fandom is too niche and comics are more expensive. Plus comics are harder to find because the stores are dying out.
> 
> The future state characters would've worked better as a retool for the Earth One graphic novel line. It's a safer play than pissing off the Wednesday warrior crowd. But outside of Jace and Jo from Far Sector, most of them are undercooked as characters and rather forgettable.


Well said. 

I guess if it wasn't going to be a sudden change to the established idea of Batman it could work. Like, if this legacy concept was a foundational aspect since 1939, rather than a change that would take effect now.

In any case, I would appreciate a story about Batman as a legacy thing. There was a cool Robin annual back in the mid to late nineties, when all the annuals that year were exploring the Dead Earth concept. Humanity had expanded, becoming a galactic civilization and there was still a Batman. It implied a similar concept.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Alfred should be his first mentor but not his only one. Ra's makes the most sense if you just want to give him one mentor. He's lived hundreds of years and tons of skills. So it's a way of cheating the process.

Bruce has an attraction to unhealthy people. Telltale acknowledged how damaging that could be so the comics could do the same. 

I'm bored of Bruce at the moment. So I don't giving someone else a go in the new DCEU. Just let Pattinson and Reeves do their thing on their own Earth.

I didn't mind Titans Earth One saving the legacies for down the road. Using Jericho instead of Dick was a smart move and I'd do more like that.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> It would've worked in the 70s and 80s but not today. The fandom is too niche and comics are more expensive. Plus comics are harder to find because the stores are dying out.
> 
> The future state characters would've worked better as a retool for the Earth One graphic novel line. *It's a safer play than pissing off the Wednesday warrior crowd*. But outside of Jace and Jo from Far Sector, most of them are undercooked as characters and rather forgettable.


Even if you did Earth One line of books-some of those guys would still be offended that those books exist.

Because someone would be mad that those books are marketing something they don like. Even if it's NOT in the comic book store.

See I am Starfire, Gotham High, Beware My Power Blu Ray and so on.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Even if you did Earth One line of books-some of those guys would still be offended that those books exist.
> 
> Because someone would be mad that those books are marketing something they don like. Even if it's NOT in the comic book store.
> 
> See I am Starfire, Gotham High, Beware My Power Blu Ray and so on.


Fair enough.

Back in the early days of the new 52, I was fine with getting rid of the Robin mantle. I felt like it didn't fit the condensed timeline. Plus I always saw it as a stepping stone so I was fine with cutting it.

I don't mind keeping the legacy characters, they would've just started out with their new mantles from the get go.

The other option is letting Dick and his friends take over for their mentors.

----------


## hareluyafan1

> I don't mind Bruce traveling and learning, but I *deeply*  dislike him learning from assassins and the like - people he should be trying to take down.  League of Assassins should definitely be something he only knows about after years on the job.  I also prefer Batman to not be a god-tier fighter.  Good, yes. Great, even.  Not top 20 in the world.  World's Best Detective,  not world's best martial artist.


 I agree with this completely.

----------


## Godlike13

> Even if you did Earth One line of books-some of those guys would still be offended that those books exist.
> 
> Because someone would be mad that those books are marketing something they don like. Even if it's NOT in the comic book store.
> 
> See I am Starfire, Gotham High, Beware My Power Blu Ray and so on.


Somebody somewhere is always something.

----------


## HeartofTheStoriesWeTell

batman falling from the moon isn't awesome... its a level of jumping the shark that I just was NOT ready for... infact it jumped the moon
It is surviving a nuke in a fridge level of cringe and I will have to hear people talk about this 'feat' for years to come without any context

----------


## Frontier

> Alfred should be his first mentor but not his only one. Ra's makes the most sense if you just want to give him one mentor. He's lived hundreds of years and tons of skills. So it's a way of cheating the process.
> 
> Bruce has an attraction to unhealthy people. Telltale acknowledged how damaging that could be so the comics could do the same. 
> 
> I'm bored of Bruce at the moment. So I don't giving someone else a go in the new DCEU. Just let Pattinson and Reeves do their thing on their own Earth.
> 
> I didn't mind Titans Earth One saving the legacies for down the road. Using Jericho instead of Dick was a smart move and I'd do more like that.


I just don't think Ra's training Bruce works at all...let alone Bruce meeting him in his younger years. It was one of my biggest issues with Zdarsky's The Knight mini.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I just don't think Ra's training Bruce works at all...let alone Bruce meeting him in his younger years. It was one of my biggest issues with Zdarsky's The Knight mini.


I'm used to it because I got in through the movies and expanded media. So I just picture that sequence in my head. It wasn't a necessity for the Knight but I was fine with it.

----------


## marhawkman

> I just don't think Ra's training Bruce works at all...let alone Bruce meeting him in his younger years. It was one of my biggest issues with Zdarsky's The Knight mini.


Yeah, Ra's makes sense as someone who Bruce might have heard of in some context... but never met since he wasn't the Batman yet.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick Grayson made an entertaining Batman because he was so different to Bruce that it felt refreshing.


Honestly I think if they had continued with Dick as Batman on the long run people might have lost interest once it didn't feel new anymore.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Honestly I think if they had continued with Dick as Batman on the long run people might have lost interest once it didn't feel new anymore.


Sure but that's true of any storyline. It's not unique to replacement heroes or legacies.

----------


## exile001

> batman falling from the moon isn't awesome... its a level of jumping the shark that I just was NOT ready for... infact it jumped the moon
> It is surviving a nuke in a fridge level of cringe and I will have to hear people talk about this 'feat' for years to come without any context


100% this. 

I'm still not over Spider-man doing it and at least he had the bullshit excuse of a nanobot super suit at the time.

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## Frontier

> Honestly I think if they had continued with Dick as Batman on the long run people might have lost interest once it didn't feel new anymore.


I think even by the end of it Dick was starting to slide into just being typical Batman.

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## MajorHoy

> I think even by the end of it Dick was starting to slide into just being typical Batman.


But at least it wasn't "Bat-God".

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## the illustrious mr. kenway

Dick is my least favorite Robin. Outside of his time as Batman II or Agent 37, I don't care for him as a lead.

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## Guy_McNichts

Not really a controversial opinion, so much as an observation.

I was just watching _Batman Returns_...being the Christmas season...and I realized there's a subtle cynicism to the portrayal of the citizens in Gotham in Burton's movies.

In the first one, despite being terrorized by the Joker, they gleefully attend his parade on the promise of money. They flip-flop between loving & hating Batman & the Penguin on a dime in _Returns_. Overall, they're not bright and easily swayed.

The people of Gotham City in Tim Burton's _Batman_ movies are akin the _Simpsons_' Springfield. They would absolutely be dead without Bats' protection and probably deserve it. 

No real point, but it's an interesting contrast to how Gotham would be portrayed by Nolan and Reeves.

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## Agent Z

> Not really a controversial opinion, so much as an observation.
> 
> I was just watching _Batman Returns_...being the Christmas season...and I realized there's a subtle cynicism to the portrayal of the citizens in Gotham in Burton's movies.
> 
> In the first one, despite being terrorized by the Joker, they gleefully attend his parade on the promise of money. They flip-flop between loving & hating Batman & the Penguin on a dime in _Returns_. Overall, they're not bright and easily swayed.
> 
> The people of Gotham City in Tim Burton's _Batman_ movies are akin the _Simpsons_' Springfield. They would absolutely be dead without Bats' protection and probably deserve it. 
> 
> No real point, but it's an interesting contrast to how Gotham would be portrayed by Nolan and Reeves.


That's ironic considering Nolan and Reeves's films get accused of being too bleak.

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## WonderNight

> Dick is my least favorite Robin. Outside of his time as Batman II or Agent 37, I don't care for him as a lead.


Interesting. What do you feel worked for him in those roles but not the others?

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## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Interesting. What do you feel worked for him in those roles but not the others?


Batman II felt more like the next step where Nightwing felt more like underemployment. Dick infiltrating Spyral had a stronger hook than him in Bludhaven. 

Since I don't like him as much as the others he needed something more than just superhero basics to draw me in. Ironically I'm the same way about Iron Fist and Superman lol.

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## MajorHoy

> Batman II felt more like the next step where Nightwing felt more like underemployment.


Then again, when did you first start reading about Dick Grayson?

When he first went from Robin to Nightwing back in 1984, it was definitely a "next step" for him.

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## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Then again, when did you first start reading about Dick Grayson?
> 
> When he first went from Robin to Nightwing back in 1984, it was definitely a "next step" for him.


Before the new 52. I don't mind him as Nightwing he just needed something more than just a new ID for me. So it's a lesson all the other legacies and spinoff characters could learn too.

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## WonderNight

> Before the new 52. I don't mind him as Nightwing he just needed something more than just a new ID for me. So it's a lesson all the other legacies and spinoff characters could learn too.


I can get that. Nightwing's mission statement can be very basic at times " protector of generic city" can be really boring!!

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## Godlike13

> Then again, when did you first start reading about Dick Grayson?
> 
> When he first went from Robin to Nightwing back in 1984, it was definitely a "next step" for him.


Ya, gotta remember when Nightwing became Nightwing there was no other Nightwings. Going from Robin to Nightwing was a big deal when he did it, because it wasn’t done before and no one even thought it was a thing they could do. By the time of the New 52 they bastardized the hell out of characters doing it to the point with the New 52 half the line was made up off spin offs and ex-Robins with new ids.

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## MajorHoy

> Ya, gotta remember when Nightwing became Nightwing there was no other Nightwings...


No others outside of the City of Kandor, that is.

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## Guy_McNichts

A funny thing about the '89 _Batman_ is, despite its reputation, Bruce doesn't actually kill anyone (though Johnny Gobbs's fate remains dubious) until he blows up Axis Chemicals--which marks the beginning of the third act of the movie.

The reason I find this notable is, by most accounts from the filmmakers, the third act is when things went off the rails and they were pretty much making it up as they went along. 
This is also how Joker killing Bruce's parents came to fruition and also why Joker's henchmen miraculously are already in the bell-tower waiting to fight.

There's a story that, while filming the sequence where Joker leads Vicki Vale up the stairs at gunpoint, Nicholson stopped and flat-out asked Burton, "Where are going? What are we doing here?" 
Burton replied, "You're leading her up the bell-tower." And when Nicholson asked why, he said, "We'll figure it out when we get there."

So, really, Batman killing his enemies in this movie wasn't trying to offer a particular stance on whether heroes should kill or not, nor was it a throwback to the Golden Age or any other comic reference. 

It was purely, "We're behind schedule, and we don't know how to end this.....screw it, Batman's got machine guns and missiles."


I guess come _Returns_, they figured "in for penny, in for a pound."

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## the illustrious mr. kenway

A way to adapt Robin is the We Are Robin movement. They could Batman's version of the Baker Street Irregulars. A group of street kids that Batman uses as scouts in exchange for getting them out of a life of a crime. He wants to prevent another version of him from being created. It also prevents the Turf war mentality that DC tends to inspire with legacies as most of the Robins could be active at the same time. Damian is the exception but you could work him in after.

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## mathew101281

They are rushing Punchline as a character. The biggest problem with modern comics is that characters aren’t given time to breathe. It’s either the character is getting neglected or it’s being shoved down your throat to the point that you are starting to to get annoyed by the character.

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## Tzigone

> They are rushing Punchline as a character. The biggest problem with modern comics is that characters aren’t given time to breathe. It’s either the character is getting neglected or it’s being shoved down your throat to the point that you are starting to to get annoyed by the character.


I have no opinion on Punchline.  But it does amuse me that you say this is an issue with modern comics when the Joker had two stories in his first issue, and then appeared in more than every other issue for the next dozen issues.  Spamming new characters is old hat.  Though, it does, of course, make a difference when you have several stories per issue (even if the reader doesn't like the villain featured in one story, they may like the others in the issue). And when a story takes six months or more, being absent in a story is being absent from the public mind a lot longer, but also makes it more irritating for anyone who doesn't like a particular story or villain.

Plus, we have so much more intermixing that new characters sometimes show up in multiple titles to promote them. But that's been for decades now, too.

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## Aahz

> I have no opinion on Punchline.  But it does amuse me that you say this is an issue with modern comics when the Joker had two stories in his first issue, and then appeared in more than every other issue for the next dozen issues.  Spamming new characters is old hat.


On the other Hand Batman didn't have much of a Rogues Gallery back than, and they had write like 4 storries per issue...
From what I remember the were back than only 3 villains that were really "spammed" like that Joker, Penguin and Catwoman. The others appeared pretty rarely.

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## marhawkman

> On the other Hand Batman didn't have much of a Rogues Gallery back than, and they had write like 4 storries per issue...
> From what I remember the were back than only 3 villains that were really "spammed" like that Joker, Penguin and Catwoman. The others appeared pretty rarely.


Yeah and the old Joker stories... didn't really push him as a particularly important rogue... just a highly murderous one.

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## ayanestar

> They are rushing Punchline as a character. The biggest problem with modern comics is that characters aren’t given time to breathe. It’s either the character is getting neglected or it’s being shoved down your throat to the point that you are starting to to get annoyed by the character.


I mean, I personally agree, but I see quite a lot of appreciation for her online, so whatever DC is doing right now seems to be working.

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## JediBatman54

Arthur Fleck was a Virgin thats why the way he fantasizes being with her Neighbor who is Single Mother Sophie makes more sense and thats why his descent to madness makes more sense but i think he will not longer be one in Joker 2 with Lady Gaga Harley Quinn

I know that All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder is Controversial but i like the way they depict Batman as a Lunatic who mistreats Robin and trains him hard to fight Crime i think someone who uses a Kid to fight Crime with him must be not right of the mind

All Batman Live Actions Movies including the Pattinson The Batman 2022 Movie are made for Children there hasnt been a completely Dark Batman in Live Action only Michael Keaton and Ben Affleck were a little but they become Soft i would have liked to see a Batman that deals with the Crudeness of Organized Crime something closer to Reality i want a Batman Movie with similar tone of the Joker 2019 Movie and that is Rated R

Daredevil is a better Batman than Modern Batman for me even the Netflix Daredevil Show is a better Batman Movie

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## TheKryptonMan

> Arthur Fleck was a Virgin thats why the way he fantasizes being with her Neighbor who is Single Mother Sophie makes more sense and thats why his descent to madness makes more sense but i think he will not longer be one in Joker 2 with Lady Gaga Harley Quinn
> 
> I know that All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder is Controversial but i like the way they depict Batman as a Lunatic who mistreats Robin and trains him hard to fight Crime i think someone who uses a Kid to fight Crime with him must be not right of the mind
> 
> All Batman Live Actions Movies including the Pattinson The Batman 2022 Movie are made for Children there hasnt been a completely Dark Batman in Live Action only Michael Keaton and Ben Affleck were a little but they become Soft i would have liked to see a Batman that deals with the Crudeness of Organized Crime something closer to Reality i want a Batman Movie with similar tone of the Joker 2019 Movie and that is Rated R
> 
> Daredevil is a better Batman than Modern Batman for me even the Netflix Daredevil Show is a better Batman Movie




About All Star Batman & Robin , I have every issue . Bought them the day they came out .
Disappointed that the series never had a proper end to it .
Yeah Batman is portrayed as a lunatic , but it was very cool to read .
If only Miller & Jim Lee did some more issues and finished it out , it would be great !

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## marhawkman

> I mean, I personally agree, but I see quite a lot of appreciation for her online, so whatever DC is doing right now seems to be working.


I think the character design isn't bad.  It's just the "hey look at the new most important character" vibe I dislike..

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## Stars & Stripes

> I think the character design isn't bad.  It's just the "hey look at the new most important character" vibe I dislike..


My issue with Punchline is just other characters pitted against her tend to be given plot-induced-stupidity just to make her look better.

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## marhawkman

> My issue with Punchline is just other characters pitted against her tend to be given plot-induced-stupidity just to make her look better.


Yeah, that's one of the worst mistakes people make trying to promote a new character.

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## JediBatman54

Joker didn't kill Barbara Gordon in Killing Joke because he still had some "Goodness" or "Sanity" in him and paralyzed her instead if he had killed her he would have succeeded in driving Jim Gordon insane

I think Double Face character must be reinvented and have a New Origin than him just being a Guy that his face exploded or he got acid in his face i would like to see a Double Face who has Schizophrenia and thats why he has a Double personality

I think that Batman also has to be reinvented i dont like how they have made him a Gary Stu God who does everything right is an expert in everything and do no Wrong that is not Realistic at least not a Realistic Batman where there is no Superman or characters with Super Powers i think Batman has to be a Scary character someone who is like an Urban Myth who is just a Crazy Grown Man who dresses as a Bat in late Night i think a Man like that in Real Life would not be right of the mind probably a Real Life Batman would use Guns and he would not have help from the Police at least not in a Realistic World i like Batman because he is someone that could exist in Real Life unlike Superman or Spiderman

Robin is not a Realistic character that is why there are very few adaptations of him in Live Action a Comic Book Robin can Work in a Typical Comic Book Movie but in a "Realistic" Batman Movie it could not Work thats why Christopher Nolan imagined Robin as an Adult Police Man and not a Kid or a Teenager 
for now there is no a Kid Robin in Live Action yet for the same reasons every Robin in Live Action so far has been an Adult or a Teenager Adam West Robin was a Teenager not a Kid Dark Victory  Comic reinvented the Origin of the Kid Robin but still many filmmakers ignore the Kid Robin for the Live Action Movies

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## Alan2099

> Robin is not a Realistic character that is why there are very few adaptations of him in Live Action a Comic Book Robin can Work in a Typical Comic Book Movie but in a "Realistic" Batman Movie it could not Work thats why Christopher Nolan imagined Robin as an Adult Police Man and not a Kid or a Teenager


Nolan couldn't make comic accurate versions of anything work.  He's Ra's had no Lazarus.  His Joker had no white skin or Joker Venom.  His Bane had no Venom.  He was really bad at adapting characters and I can't understand why he gets as much praise as he does.

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## Agent Z

> Nolan couldn't make comic accurate versions of anything work.  He's Ra's had no Lazarus.  His Joker had no white skin or Joker Venom.  His Bane had no Venom.  He was really bad at adapting characters and I can't understand why he gets as much praise as he does.


That's superficial stuff not the characters' core. Ra's character doesn't begin and end with Lazarus pits and Joker doesn't always use Joker venom.

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## Alan2099

> That's superficial stuff not the characters' core. Ra's character doesn't begin and end with Lazarus pits and Joker doesn't always use Joker venom.


When you take away everything that makers them special you reduce them to just generic terrorists and that's pretty much what they were under Nolan.

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## Agent Z

> When you take away everything that makers them special you reduce them to just generic terrorists and that's pretty much what they were under Nolan.


Ra's and Joker aren't special because of Lazarus pits and Joker venom. Ra's has pretty much always been a terrorist and cult leader which is what Nolan portrayed him as and Ledger's Joker is still a criminal with a clown theme. Bane's reliance on venom has been a crutch that even fans have wanted him to get rid of since it tends to overshadow his natural strength and tactical mind.

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## godisawesome

> When you take away everything that makers them special you reduce them to just generic terrorists and that's pretty much what they were under Nolan.


“What makes them special” is a lot of stuff - and I’d argue that for the Nolan villains, what mattered more was the personality and chemistry with Bruce making them special, even at the cost of downplaying (though not erasing) their gimmicks.

If Joker is still a diabolical mastermind with a wicked sense of humor and a supreme mastery of branding who’s a harrowing and terrifying adversary fri Batman, that matters far more than whether his skin is white and his hair is green. If Bane is still a strong, physically superior combatant but also a dangerously calculating mind with a pronounced and mutual rivalry with Batman, that matters far more than whether he has super strength and steroids.

In fact, Bane going without Venom for a few years in the comics kind of shows what was more valuable for him, while it’s notable that all the cartoons that just go with “super steroid man” for him only have mostly forgettable appearances. Now, I would agree that his Arkham Origins adaptation is his best single portrayal overall, since there, the Venom stuff *literally* kicks a very Tom Hardy-style Bane into overdrive… but that also comes along with pointing out that the dumber, Hulk-ed up Bane from the rest of the game series is pretty bad, actually.

Ra’s, in my opinion, is a more interesting debate point for the Nolan movies, because the personality and chemistry with Batman that Nolan pursued isn’t as ubiquitous to the comics as his immortality… but I’d argue that having Ra’s have a genuinely complex relationship to Bruce, and there being a far more genuine and tempting nature to the offer to make him an heir *does* create a better version of Ra’s than his immortality does. Again, if you can combine the two, that’s best, but if you have one to sacrifice for the other… I’ll take “surrogate father figure” Ra’s over the immortal Demon.

In a similar vein… I’d argue that The Batman’s version of Riddler illustrates a similar problem, but in reverse. It’s maybe the best handling of his gimmick, but has such a loony, prosaically disturbed Riddler that, honestly, once he actually starts acting as a character rather than as a gimmick machine at the end, he gets a lot more pathetic and “Joker-lite.” 

Honestly… only the Paul Dini version of Riddler as a 95% rational and stable smartass really works; the rest end up just being lost on Joker’s shadow.

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## Felipe Silveira

> Nolan couldn't make comic accurate versions of anything work.  He's Ra's had no Lazarus.  His Joker had no white skin or Joker Venom.  His Bane had no Venom.  He was really bad at adapting characters and I can't understand why he gets as much praise as he does.


I only read the truth, even Catwoman, who has nothing to do with a cat.

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## JediBatman54

> Nolan couldn't make comic accurate versions of anything work.  He's Ra's had no Lazarus.  His Joker had no white skin or Joker Venom.  His Bane had no Venom.  He was really bad at adapting characters and I can't understand why he gets as much praise as he does.


Many Filmmakers are not adapting the Comics 100% they are just using their interpretations of the characters and for Batman for some reason they always want to make the Batman character to be more Realistic than in the Comics thats why we havent had a Kid Robin because it would be difficult to adapt him in Live Action say what you want about Nolan but Ledger version of Joker is better known and loved by the General Audience than the Comic Version of Joker and Ledger dont even look or act like the Joker he is more like the Riddler, the Crow or something

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## Cyberstrike

Realistic Batman is boring.

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## mathew101281

> Realistic Batman is boring.


What do you mean by realistic?

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## godisawesome

“Realistic” Batman *hasn’t actually happened on screen yet*, in the same way that we haven’t gotten any “only gimmicks, no personality” version of him and his world either.

There’s a bit of sliding scale for how close you are to a “grounded” take versus a more “fantasy” take, but to be honest, *all* the modern movies thus far have stuck somewhere in the middle, simply choosing which elements of “grounded” storytelling they want to pair with what elements of “fantasy”  they want.

Nolan didn’t want the Lazarus Pit… but he did want Fear Toxin, Batmobile tanks flying on rooftops, some painkiller gas that doesn’t interfere with working out to extreme, concrete crushing strength, and (somewhat surprisingly) the only “eye glow” in any movie thus far. Reeves wanted to go film noir really, really hard… but had Batman wading through gunfire, crashing into concrete bridges at high speed and surviving, etc.

Do I think they should try doing Robin, Clayface, or the Court of Owls on live action? Hell yeah! But they’ve done well with more grounded take son more grounded villains, while still remained fantastic overall.

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## Agent Z

> A funny thing about the '89 _Batman_ is, despite its reputation, Bruce doesn't actually kill anyone (though Johnny Gobbs's fate remains dubious) until he blows up Axis Chemicals--which marks the beginning of the third act of the movie.
> 
> The reason I find this notable is, by most accounts from the filmmakers, the third act is when things went off the rails and they were pretty much making it up as they went along. 
> This is also how Joker killing Bruce's parents came to fruition and also why Joker's henchmen miraculously are already in the bell-tower waiting to fight.
> 
> There's a story that, while filming the sequence where Joker leads Vicki Vale up the stairs at gunpoint, Nicholson stopped and flat-out asked Burton, "Where are going? What are we doing here?" 
> Burton replied, "You're leading her up the bell-tower." And when Nicholson asked why, he said, "We'll figure it out when we get there."
> 
> So, really, Batman killing his enemies in this movie wasn't trying to offer a particular stance on whether heroes should kill or not, nor was it a throwback to the Golden Age or any other comic reference. 
> ...


Doesn't the first movie have a scene where he guns down Napier's men at the factory where Napier becomes the Joker?

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## sunofdarkchild

> Doesn't the first movie have a scene where he guns down Napier's men at the factory where Napier becomes the Joker?


No.  Batman's goal in that scene is to capture those men so that the police could use them to bring down Boss Grissom.  Even if he was prone to murdering rampages, in that instance it would have gone against his interests to kill them.  Later he he knowingly blows up Ace with many people inside while he waited outside.

The thugs he beats up in the opening scene are actually the first sign that this Batman is a killer.  They talk about another crook Batman fought and very strongly implied that Batman killed him since the one who denies that Batman exists says that he "got ripped and took a walk off a roof, no big loss" and the other one talks about he fell "five stories straight down" followed by arguments over the state of his corpse and whether he was drained of all blood or his blood was all over the pavement.

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## hareluyafan1

> I think that Batman also has to be reinvented i dont like how they have made him a Gary Stu God who does everything right is an expert in everything and do no Wrong


 I fully agree with that.




> that is not Realistic at least not a Realistic Batman where there is no Superman or characters with Super Powers i think Batman has to be a Scary character someone who is like an Urban Myth who is just a Crazy Grown Man who dresses as a Bat in late Night i think a Man like that in Real Life would not be right of the mind probably a Real Life Batman would use Guns and he would not have help from the Police at least not in a Realistic World i like Batman because he is someone that could exist in Real Life unlike Superman or Spiderman


 Beg your pardon but superheroes are not *supposed* to be "realistic." They're meant to be iconic. Superheroes are modern myths.  

 And no, Batman could not exist in "real life." Please explain how a billionaire with unlimited money and a multi-national company, who is a genius, an expert in *every* single field of study, has an Olympic level physique, an arsenal of cutting-edge gadgets and a fleet of high-tech vehicles is in any way "realistic?"




> Robin is not a Realistic character that is why there are very few adaptations of him in Live Action a Comic Book Robin can Work in a Typical Comic Book Movie but in a "Realistic" Batman Movie it could not Work thats why Christopher Nolan imagined Robin as an Adult Police Man and not a Kid or a Teenager 
> for now there is no a Kid Robin in Live Action yet for the same reasons every Robin in Live Action so far has been an Adult or a Teenager Adam West Robin was a Teenager not a Kid Dark Victory  Comic reinvented the Origin of the Kid Robin but still many filmmakers ignore the Kid Robin for the Live Action Movies


I suggest you watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHpeVgO2FEk

 I know Robin suffers from the "Joel Schumacher" stigma but the fact is that there is *no* reason why a comic-accurate Robin can't be done.

 Batman, Joker, Two-face etc. are all silly, ridiculous concepts on paper. If those can work in a serious toned film then so can Robin.




> still many filmmakers ignore the Kid Robin for the Live Action Movies


 And frankly that's dumb. Batman and Robin are the Dynamic Duo, Batman *needs* Robin.

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## Guy_McNichts

> Doesn't the first movie have a scene where he guns down Napier's men at the factory where Napier becomes the Joker?


No, he shoots one thug with a grappling gun and leaves him hanging, but the guy is clearly still alive. Otherwise, Bats just punches and knocks everyone out.







> The thugs he beats up in the opening scene are actually the first sign that this Batman is a killer.  They talk about another crook Batman fought and very strongly implied that Batman killed him since the one who denies that Batman exists says that he "got ripped and took a walk off a roof, no big loss" and the other one talks about he fell "five stories straight down" followed by arguments over the state of his corpse and whether he was drained of all blood or his blood was all over the pavement.


Yeah, that's what I meant by Johnny Dobbs's fate being dubious. Thug #1 insists Batman killed him. Thug #2 dismisses it as suicide. But we don't know if Batman did murder him or if his death was an accident. 

That's my point. We don't see Batman outright kill anybody until the third act when he blows up Axis Chemicals and onward. Until then, he seems content punching and kicking dudes and knocking them out.
Seems more a last minute choice than conscious vision of the character's morals code.

Of course, the movie was also made in the time of Schwarzenegger and _Die Hard_ where it was more common and unquestioned that heroes just shot the bad guys.

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## Jackalope89

It takes awhile into the film, but Batsy does begin to rack up his own body count.

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## sunofdarkchild

I remember watching the movie on TV with my dad as a kid.  He complained about how all of Batman's missiles missed the Joker when he had locked onto the Joker's face.  I said that of course they missed because Batman doesn't kill.  Then Batman threw that henchman down the skyscraper and my dad said "what do you mean he doesn't kill?  He just killed that guy."  And I had no response.  I just knew that the hero I looked up to from the comics and cartoon wasn't the same in the movie.

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## hareluyafan1

> Of course, the movie was also made in the time of Schwarzenegger and _Die Hard_ where it was more common and unquestioned that heroes just shot the bad guys.


 The problem is that Schwarzenegger and his ilk aren't mythic figures. Superheroes are.

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## JBatmanFan05

> I think that Batman also has to be reinvented i dont like how they have made him a Gary Stu God who does everything right is an expert in everything and do no Wrong that is not Realistic at least not a Realistic Batman where there is no Superman or characters with Super Powers *i think Batman has to be a Scary character someone who is like an Urban Myth who is just a Crazy Grown Man who dresses as a Bat in late Night i think a Man like that in Real Life would not be right of the mind probably a Real Life Batman would use Guns and he would not have help from the Police* at least not in a Realistic World i like Batman because he is someone that could exist in Real Life unlike Superman or Spiderman


Frank Miller, is that you? :Cool:

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