# CBR Community  > Comics Should Be Good >  So Reed Richards Just Gets a Pass For His Clone of Thor Killing Goliath?

## CBR News

CSBG's latest look at ignored comic book plots marvels at how Reed Richards has gotten a free pass for cloning Thor and that clone killing Goliath.


_Full article here._

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## Hatut Zeraze

I clicked the link and it didn't bring me to an article about this, but I do have an opinion on this.

I say that Reed Richards gets a pass for that because he was forced to play a part in a goofy story and he had no real way to say no because he is a fictional comic book property.  Just because Mark Millar and his editors at the time of Civil War thought it was a reasonable thing for Reed Richards to do, doesn't mean that I have to take it any more seriously than Thanos writing his name on the back of his own helicopter.  Yes, it happened in an in-continuity comic.  No, I don't have to assume that every in-continuity character take it any more seriously than I do.

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## Conn Seanery

http://www.cbr.com/if-i-pass-this-wa...lling-goliath/

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## Ronin705

Isn't he not on Earth right now being forced to keep the multiverse together?? Sounds like karma to me

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## Sandman

How do i get to page 2 of this article? There's no obvious button or link that i can see.

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## Tony Stark

Yes, Reed got a pass. Tony was the only one that got the full brunt of the hate from the other characters and the readers. Now how some writers wrote Tony, he deserved the hate, but Reed was right there along with him.

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## Carabas

All characters should get passes for anything they did while being written by Mark Millar.

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## Powerboy

> All characters should get passes for anything they did while being written by Mark Millar.


It's funny because there was a debate recently about people having their own personal continuities for canon events in comics but most of us do it and it's almost inevitable when characters go drastically out of character to further a rather forced storyline.

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## Hypestyle

It's pretty messed up-- but it is what it is.  rest in peace goliath.

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## Tony Stark

> It's pretty messed up-- but it is what it is.  rest in peace goliath.


It was really messed up. I remember the funeral too. It was Stark, Reed's and Pym's fault. All thought I always thought Pym being a skrull screwed it up on purpose to spread more dissent.

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## Michael Watkins

Clor was acting in self-defense. Foster charged him while threatening to kill him.

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## WTNew

The question should be how did Millar get a free pass to write this crap. I haven't followed Marvel since this "event". It completely ruined the Marvel Universe for me.

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## Carabas

> The question should be how did Millar get a free pass to write this crap.


He wrote some of the best-selling and most critically acclaimed comics Marvel had had in ages just prior to that with Ultimate x-Men, Ultimates and Ultimates 2.

Which still hold up quite well today.

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## Agent Z

> Clor was acting in self-defense. Foster charged him while threatening to kill him.


 Reed and Tony flat out state the clone was supposed to disable Foster not kill him.

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## Tony Stark

> Reed and Tony flat out state the clone was supposed to disable Foster not kill him.


This is why I think Skrull Pym is the one that made it malfunction.

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## Carabas

> This is why I think Skrull Pym is the one that made it malfunction.


Skrull Pym hadn't been invented yet when Millar wrote Civil War.

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## Tony Stark

> Skrull Pym hadn't been invented yet when Millar wrote Civil War.


According to Mighty Avengers he was.

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## Carabas

> According to Mighty Avengers he was.


In 2006, when Mark Millar wrote Hank Pym in Civil War, Skrull Pym hadn't been invented yet.

Skrull Pym didn't exist until 2008 when Brian Bendis created him for Secret Invasion.

So whatever Pym did in 2006 may have been retconned in-universe as the actions of a Skrull, it is not they way it was written or intended.

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## Tony Stark

> In 2006, when Mark Millar wrote Hank Pym in Civil War, Skrull Pym hadn't been invented yet.
> 
> Skrull Pym didn't exist until 2008 when Brian Bendis created him for Secret Invasion.
> 
> So whatever Pym did in 2006 may have been retconned in-universe as the actions of a Skrull, it is not they way it was written or intended.


They even show Pym as a skrull working on the clone in  Avengers The Initaitive

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## Carabas

> They even show Pym as a skrull working on the clone in Avengers The Initaitive


That does not matter.

You're completely missing the point.

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## Tony Stark

double post

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## Johnny Peril

Hank actually brings it up during an argument with Reed. Pym wants to borrow an invention that Bill left to Ben in his will but Reed feels it's better off in his hands. Kind of ironic because Hank helped build it and it was originally left to him first but he had been replaced by a Skrull.
MA25.jpg

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## Tony Stark

> Hank actually brings it up during an argument with Reed. Pym wants to borrow an invention that Bill left to Ben in his will but Reed feels it's better off in his hands. Kind of ironic because Hank helped build it and it was originally left to him first but he had been replaced by a Skrull.
> MA25.jpg


That's what I thought. I didn't remember it was stated and I actually have that issue.

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## Sutekh

> Skrull Pym hadn't been invented yet when Millar wrote Civil War.


I got all the trades lately, and was amused that the initial books had thought bubbles from Pym, and he was super-obviously *not* a Skrull, and then, under the next writer, he'd been a Skrull all along, and I was like, "Whaatt?  Did this writer not even bother to read the book before?"   :Smile:

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## Tony Stark

> I got all the trades lately, and was amused that the initial books had thought bubbles from Pym, and he was super-obviously *not* a Skrull, and then, under the next writer, he'd been a Skrull all along, and I was like, "Whaatt?  Did this writer not even bother to read the book before?"


So it was a retcon.

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## L.R Johansson

> So it was a retcon.


It probably was - it should be mentioned though, by those of us who remember it, that Bendis had already planted the seeds of some kind of big conspiracy, and that some unseen force was working against the heroes, even prior to CW - in fact, his entire New Avengers run was initially built on this - all the way from issue #1, when Electro breaks people out of the Raft.

I'm not sure if it was really Skrulls initially, but the way he writes, he had probably had plans for Secret Invasion in one form or another, Skrulls included, for a VERY long time.

The part with Pym was probably a retcon though, since he mentioned that they had big meetings about which characters would turn out to be Skrulls, prior to SI - and it seemed like it was AFTER CW these talks took place.


There's a perfectly reasonable No-prize in-universe explanations for the thought-bubbles though - it was established early on that the reason Telepaths couldn't see the difference between the Skrull copies and the originals was because the Skrull infiltrators all had complex MYSTICALLY transferred memory-implants -PERSONALITY-implants even...! They even had a scene where it was revealed that the Pym-copy had to be replaced, several times, because Pym's personality was so unstable, that he'd start thinking he's Pym, and having his trade-mark Bipolar mixed hyper-switching -which then could end up blowing everything.

They also had ANOTHER example of this, where the transplanted personality completely overrode the Skrull - Captain Mahr-Vehl - his Secret Invasion intro-mini-series revealed this (and it was GREAT!).

With this in mind - those thought-bubbles can EASILY be explained away, with the fact that at that moment, the Skrull-imposter Pym really BELIEVED he was Pym.

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## Gaastra

Don't forget there were two skrulls that were Pym.  The first was a female (did she kiss wasp at that time? Wasp might not be happy about that. Then again wasp was "dead" right after that.) who was killed by a male skrull who took over so it was two pyms not one.  Maybe the first didn't know about the other skrull agents?

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## Carabas

> Don't forget there were two skrulls that were Pym.  The first was a female (did she kiss wasp at that time? Wasp might not be happy about that. Then again wasp was "dead" right after that.) who was killed by a male skrull who took over so it was two pyms not one.  Maybe the first didn't know about the other skrull agents?


That makes it far less likely that "no really, Mark Millar had totally intended Pym to be a Skrull when he wrote Civil War", not more. Every layer of convolution makes it less likely.

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## mrbrklyn

> It's funny because there was a debate recently about people having their own personal continuities for canon events in comics but most of us do it and it's almost inevitable when characters go drastically out of character to further a rather forced storyline.


which has happened a lot of late.

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## Klaxton

> It probably was - it should be mentioned though, by those of us who remember it, that Bendis had already planted the seeds of some kind of big conspiracy, and that some unseen force was working against the heroes, even prior to CW - in fact, his entire New Avengers run was initially built on this - all the way from issue #1, when Electro breaks people out of the Raft.
> 
> I'm not sure if it was really Skrulls initially, but the way he writes, he had probably had plans for Secret Invasion in one form or another, Skrulls included, for a VERY long time.
> 
> The part with Pym was probably a retcon though, since he mentioned that they had big meetings about which characters would turn out to be Skrulls, prior to SI - and it seemed like it was AFTER CW these talks took place.
> 
> 
> There's a perfectly reasonable No-prize in-universe explanations for the thought-bubbles though - it was established early on that the reason Telepaths couldn't see the difference between the Skrull copies and the originals was because the Skrull infiltrators all had complex MYSTICALLY transferred memory-implants -PERSONALITY-implants even...! They even had a scene where it was revealed that the Pym-copy had to be replaced, several times, because Pym's personality was so unstable, that he'd start thinking he's Pym, and having his trade-mark Bipolar mixed hyper-switching -which then could end up blowing everything.
> 
> ...


Didn't that happen to skrull captain america too?

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