# Comics  > Image Comics >  The Wicked + The Divine. Ongoing Spoilers, Theories, and Fan Feels.

## JKtheMac

As revelations and incidents are happening at a fast and furious pace I thought it might be easier to keep an ongoing discussion thread rather than reviewing each issue and then pondering and discussing it every month.

We are currently at #20 which begs a synopsis not least because it is a spoiler thread but I will place this first one in spoiler tags primarily because this is the first post. 

*spoilers:*

This is mainly a flashback issue filling in the major gaps from the perspective of Laura and 'Baphomet'. The Norns turn up at Laura's house in response to a text from beyond the grave, Laura meets Cass and fills her in on the background. In many ways she trumps Cassandra's video journalism by providing her with a full on vision of what happened.

We learn Laura never actually died, the panel leaves some ambiguity as to her injuries but she at least fell into a depression once she was taken to the Underworld. As if to complete the missing pieces of her myth cycle we learn that Baphomet is an alias. Instead, Cameron was Nergal and from his apotheosis it would appear in the aspect of the 'sun in the underworld' in the form of a fiery lion. 

We learn it was Inanna that technically saved Laura, it was his 'purple rain' flying that pushed her away and he who stood between Ananke and her target, before Baphomet/Nergal pulled her into the underworld.

It turns out Laura initiated the sex between her and her underworld protector, and Persephones mission statement is we have to save everyone.

Laura explains to Cass that they are about to storm Valhalla and when Cass tries to stop her she realises that Laura is a projection from Minervas owl. From Cass and Laura's interaction we get the first indication that Laura is still in there, as by reaching out to her she is explaining events to "the only person left that remembers me".  She is portrayed as very human throughout this issue in contract to her dark and angry aspect in the last couple of issues. She has positive motivation and a humane regard for her fellow deities.

*end of spoilers*

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## JKtheMac

A couple of things we were not sure about get teased out here:

It is possible for there to be more than twelve gods in a cycle. 
Cameron did receive a proper Apotheosis even if it did turn him into a different deity.
Ananke is choosing who can become deities instead of discovering the spark of divinity in the population.

What we still don’t know:

Can there be more than twelve deities at once?
Is Ananke necessary for apotheosis?
What Ananke’s machine actually is and why it requires sacrifice.
Who Tara was.
Who Woden’s partner is.
Why there are so many sun aspects running around.
Whether the are actually deities are necessary for culture.
Whether Ananke’s plan is for the greater good.

I had speculated and discussed how it didn't add up that Baphomet could have killed Inanna, and we get proof here that the Woden flashback issue was indeed a veiled revelation that Ananke killed him. It still isn't clear what she hoped to gain by pitting Inanna and Baphomet against each other. Was it just to get Laura's allies fighting off screen or was she just trying to thin out the potential troublemakers and get everyone looking the other way? The framing of Baphomet for Laura's death seemed to be a happy coincidence, but perhaps her plan was always to blame whoever survived.

Is Cameron just hiding his divine identity or is there more to this? The voice in his head seems to imply more, maybe he is suppressing Nergal. Geek associations aside (comic / computer game / metal) Nergal is not the kind of deity you want to let loose too often, and Ananke may have chosen this on purpose.

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## JKtheMac

> Chances that Pink Woden is Laura's Sister?
> 
> Anyway. Its not that it was obvious that is the problem. Its the fact we are losing Shades of Gray. I find Baphomet (Nergal) getting manipulated into doing Ananke's dirty work and then having a revelation far more compelling then him stopping at that last minute.


I can understand your concern that things are becoming simplified in terms of good and evil, and motivations. I just don't think we are far enough into the story to make that call. As is always the problem when you review a story part way through, we don't have a good perspective on the overall structure. We don't know how many acts there are going to be. As a culture we are so programmed by the three act structure of most movies we unconsciously mutate any story we are following into that.

So following a story like this you get to the twist and you map it onto the three act structure and imagine we are moving into the third act. Interestingly this whole arc/trade is called Rising Action, which suggests Gillen is well aware of this as well. He is deliberately playing into the audience expectations and making us think we are heading into the third act / big battle.

We are not. We know the story is longer than that, so this is a bit of a fake-out. There is a bigger twist comming, and we know this purely because the structure can't be a three act story. There is clearly a lot we don't know about the back story and Ananke and that is what we are rushing towards. If I was writing this I would probably have the protagonist discover the underlying reasons for everything and the real story just after killing or defeating the bad guy. So maybe in three or four issues time we will have a better idea what is going on.

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## JKtheMac

Now that we have had time for issue 20 to sink in how do we feel about Laura?

It was clear for the first two trades that Laura was the protagonist and the character that served as our POV introduction to the world of the pantheon. Then I had the feeling from some commentators both here and on tumblr that when Persephone returned that Laura was somehow gone, dead or repressed. 

So now it has been revealed that Laura didn't die, except perhaps on an emotional, grief stricken, and mystical level, and that she seems to retain some of her humanity, how do we see her?

For me, her apparent death made me less focused on the huge grief that she would have felt following the murder of both parents. I am so used to comics dealing with grief by focusing on the anger or bargaining stages, I was almost forgetting the other issues Laura would be facing. This issue was a shocking reminder to me how much of Laura's life has been ripped away.

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## JediKage

Well I think Laura is going to have to flip some of Ananke's Team. Her team is basically getting carried by Morrigan at this point. Laura is good but she is new. We know Baphomet cant beat Baal straight up. Heck he doesn't even think he stand a chance we saw that when he was picking targets to kill. Cass because know one liked her. Not Minerva because he couldn't kill a kid. Not Baal because he didn't think he would win. So Inanna cause he is easy.


I wish we could get more into the head of team Ananke. I mean we know what Woden is thinking and Sahkmet. But I don't feel we ever really gotten into Baal and Ama's heads the same way. And they are certainly the swayable options. 

To answer your questions.

1) Looks like there can be more then 12. Granted we haven't see flashbacks for all of them. But it might be only 12 alive max at  a time. Since 2 gods were dead before Laura.
2) I think Ananke is necessary we only seen anyone become a god thanks to her. Now it could be she is fudging the rules now.
3) It looks like its powered by Divine Energy. I don't know how she is picking who is powering it though. Seems like either Inanna or Nergal would have worked. We just don't know she needs Minerva for it to work for some reason. And she is not killing her for it. Now turning the machine on with Minerva might kill her. 
4) I don't think we will know. I don't think which goddess she actually was matters. 
5) Laura's Sister seems most likely. Assuming its a character we have already met and the height is consistent. 
6) No Idea although every pantheon has a Sun God, its a pretty consistent deity. 
7) Well apparently they are suppose to hold back the darkness. Not sure if they are necessary. We haven't really seen the threat unless its Ananke but it seems weird to make people who can challenge you. Unless you have to for some reason. 
8) Well if its not we are losing some series Shades of Grey. And it becomes Ananke Evil or at least a Fallen Heroine of some sort. I don't think its going to be so bog straight.

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## JKtheMac

I don't see the Laura's sister connection at all. Where are you picking up the hint?

But I am interested if you or anyone else is feeling the shift in identification and empathy with Laura. I keep one eye on tumblr and it felt like there was a shift away from empathising with her when it seemed that she hadn't come back quite human. People were saying things like "that's not Laura, she is dead, that is just Persephone." But of course now we know it is Laura, and we have a better perception of her mental state.

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## JediKage

Well if we assume Pink Woden someone we met. And since Woden was put in charge of cleaning up the bodies at the house. And Based on relative heights she seems a good fit. Plus its a good mindfuck/leverage over Laura. 

Yeah that is the problem. We don't know how becoming a god affects personality. I mean obviously her personality changed but that might just be traumatic events.

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## JKtheMac

> Well if we assume Pink Woden someone we met. And since Woden was put in charge of cleaning up the bodies at the house. And Based on relative heights she seems a good fit. Plus its a good mindfuck/leverage over Laura.


OK, I kind of see where you are coming from there with the clean-up thing. I don't think it matches the dialogue though, as that implies a longer relationship with a power dynamic that suggests she has something on him worse or at least different to what we already know. Also the design choice of horns may suggest something more divine and that again may suggest it is possible to become apotheosised without Ananke. I know his whole shtick is granting powers through technology but I just have a feeling this is something different and as it is a secret from Ananke it may very well be related to her plans.

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## JKtheMac

Still digesting #21 but wow they pulled out some big guns here. They are taking the 'Rising Action' moniker seriously.

Wodan suddenly stepped up in a huge way, but apparently still on the wrong side. Ananke's main weakness is demonstrated yet again, in that she seems unaware of the phenomenon of instant public opinion. The red dot joke seemed a little overplayed. (We get it without the added dialogue.)

I learn from the extensive poll results that people my age are probably in the minority reading this comic, but on the other hand I am proof the poll skewed towards young because I had meant to fill it in (started to at least once) but I think life got in the way. Although, I honestly can't remember if I ever finished and submitted it which is also a symptom of my age.

Surprise, surprise, this comic has a wide appeal to non-cis readers. Or at least people that know what terms like heteronormative means. And, the dirty secret of internet pirates is that they also buy stuff, which is always pointed out by polls but hardly ever mentioned in the mainstream press.

I am actually surprised how many North Americans read this comic. It feels very European in outlook and subverting the superhero genre is not something I expect to play well there. I guess the comic being under the Image label helps quite a bit here.

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## JediKage

Eh this story is losing me as Ananke moves into straight up evil and the ambiguity bleeds away. Also did Ama die I assume she dodged or something but was unsure. Especially since Ananke due to plot armor decides not to just one shot Nergal.

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## JKtheMac

> Eh this story is losing me as Ananke moves into straight up evil and the ambiguity bleeds away. Also did Ama die I assume she dodged or something but was unsure. Especially since Ananke due to plot armor decides not to just one shot Nergal.


I honestly believe the nuance will come later, although there is a possibility that they will kill Ananke first then realise she was key to holding human culture together. Either way we are in the false "rising action" stage of the story where perhaps overly clear lines are being drawn between preconceived ideas of good and evil.

Put it this way, any writer willing to draw upon ancient mystery cults for inspiration is no doubt aware of the false dichotomy of our notions of good and evil.

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## Jinjonator

Well hot diggity damn. That was some stuff, huh?

Can't help but wonder where things will go from here. My guess is Persephone will end up becoming a villain somehow (or at least, somehow, a destructive force, if not necessarily a villain). And likely, ramifications from whatever Ananke was trying to accomplish. 

Gillen's been hyping up #23 as being a very experimental issue for a bit now, so I'm very excited for that; and to see the new direction the series ends up going, post-Ananke. In the meantime, a pantheon of Romantic gods next month!

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## JKtheMac

I am not a big fan of action sequences in comics, they steal all the story space, but the action certainly built into a satisfying arc.

Yes Jinjonator, that certainly was some 'stuff', a deep pile of it with a cherry on top. As Gillen points out in the letter column he kind of took the fun out of the deed. This was clearly the wrong way to go for Persephone, and she was almost goaded into it, which makes me worry that she is a backup plan. A standby Anakin to Ananke's Palpatine. And miraculously Wodan is still standing, which pleases me greatly, it would be a real waste to dispose of such a nuanced bad guy.

I am guessing the Cassandra / Amaterasu shippers will be delighted, (or if they didn't exist before they certainly will now.). God knows somebody needs to crack that cynical 'I know everything' veneer. At some point I am assuming the Pantheon will realise they have been played, and that they are just normal people that were elevated. That everybody has a divine reflection if you look close enough, and Cass, as an academic and a journalist had been rendered toothless and sidelined by her transformation. I also assume that it will take some time before they realise the truth, based upon the name of the next trade arc. We will probably get a huge helping of hubris before the inevitable cracks and conflicts widen.

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## JediKage

Ugh please no Cass and Ama. It muddles the point of them clashing a lot. Cultural Appropriation is a Real Problem. 

Yeah I am pretty darn sure Ananke just Palpatine'd Persephone.

Now what I am curious about is with Ananke out of the way...does the 2 year rule actually apply.

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## JKtheMac

> Ugh please no Cass and Ama. It muddles the point of them clashing a lot. Cultural Appropriation is a Real Problem. 
> 
> Yeah I am pretty darn sure Ananke just Palpatine'd Persephone.
> 
> Now what I am curious about is with Ananke out of the way...does the 2 year rule actually apply.


Gillen is being playful with the fears of modern academia, so there is no way we have seen the last of the cultural appropriation theme.

Two years! Right now I would be surprised if they haven't killed each other within six months.

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## JKtheMac

I suspect that the ‘story’ is that the gods are somehow special. It makes sense that the pantheon would spend centuries thinking they were somehow different from ‘mortals’. Now that we know The Great Darkness is death. The only person running from it is Ananke. She is blind to the simple concept that death is inevitable and ironically ‘necessary’. Her false narrative is to fight death. To avoid it. That somehow she is a guardian of culture by staying alive and facilitating the Pantheon. 

The rules are a story. All human constructs are story. Culture is seen as a necessary story, but we should never forget it is artificial.

It does not lessen religion or mythology to accept that it is made up by man. The Romans understood this. Very few cultures grasp it.

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## FeniSam

> I suspect that the ‘story’ is that the gods are somehow special. It makes sense that the pantheon would spend centuries thinking they were somehow different from ‘mortals’. Now that we know The Great Darkness is death. The only person running from it is Ananke. She is blind to the simple concept that death is inevitable and ironically ‘necessary’. Her false narrative is to fight death. To avoid it. That somehow she is a guardian of culture by staying alive and facilitating the Pantheon. 
> 
> The rules are a story. All human constructs are story. Culture is seen as a necessary story, but we should never forget it is artificial.
> 
> It does not lessen religion or mythology to accept that it is made up by man. The Romans understood this. Very few cultures grasp it.


That last bit is particularly fascinating, and actually very thematically relevant: that divinity ceases to be divine when stripped down to the fact most of it begins as stories someone told and were believed as facts by masses for a long time. Maybe that's the third theme Gillen is always throwing around in his writer notes, the inherent nature of culture and our perception of it.

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## Jinjonator

http://www.wicdiv.com/post/178227286...-kieron-gillen

"Okay."

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## FeniSam

> http://www.wicdiv.com/post/178227286...-kieron-gillen
> 
> "Okay."


LOL, such a Gillen thing to do. Now I think one of the theories floating around that the series will actually end on a subdued, subtle note and not with a bang seems more possible.

OR, it might be so crazy and OTT that "Okay." will be all we'll be able to muster. Either way, I'm SO in.

BTW, is that Jon in the main Cover? Or maybe just a fan?

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## JKtheMac

So the 1373 special is perhaps the most extraneous so far. It does serve to underline the nihilism of Ananke, and her surety that there is no afterlife. It gives us an insight into her particular brand of evil and selfishness, and underlines her method - a mixture of control and distraction to achieve her aim of immortality - but it doesn't tell us much we can't already extrapolate. It feels a bit like a villain monologue seperated out from the main narrative to avoid cliche.

It suggests that Minerva's ritual can't be conducted until everyone else is dead, but that may just be caution. 

A Lucifer that so clearly buys into her own identity is perhaps a bit of a wild card. I wonder if this was the first Lucifer? (Ah no - forgot "Julius Ceaser" and the implication that Lucifer has been around for a while) I wonder if that self-identification worked as a request? I still don't think Ananke looks into people's souls to discover which person gets which role. I think that is part of the lie she has bought into. She is probably a creature of habit, made cautious by the times her ritual has failed in the past.

It clearly suggests the two year rule is a rule of thumb, and Ananke's assertion that they will inevitably destroy themselves seems more like a self fulfilling prophecy than a truism. Especially given the way she provokes the end in The Lighthouse and here.

I did enjoy the very literal play on the word transubstantiation. 

I have also been rereading the last issue. It seems full of double meanings. I especially like the way Wōden mistakes Casandra's accusation of creapiness in pretending to be younger, for a straightforward question. 

In our timeline Wōden's task to recreate the powers of specific gods feels like a distraction which incidentally provides Minerva with weapons she can use. I imagine her belief that everything is on track now she has three heads lined up and Mimir's ready to steal once the other gods have destroyed each other and themselves, will prove to be hubris based on past experience. The wildcards being technology and youth culture, combined with an unforeseen role of Lucifer, who Ananke probably writes off as a firey god of the underworld.

Perhaps not. Perhaps she chose Lucifer as her first victim precisely because she is an unpredictable wildcard, but still underestimated her choice of Laura.

--

Talking of Lucifer who would be Ceaser, I wonder if Laura's fire is a repeat of Julius' fire? In other words the thing Ananke was so concerned about was simply that one does not need to be a god to maintain the powers, and that once the deities throw off their divinity they can no longer be used in the ritual. If those deities that are heads also gave up their divinity Minerva would surely loose.

---

Hang on. I may be on to something here. Lucifer is Jupiter (the morning star / planet). Lucifer plays Ceaser as Jupiter. He wears the red face of Jupiter and arrives at his temple in his triumph. Ceaser was not himself one of the emperors who would be a god, in many ways he wasn't quite an emperor, but Lucifer certainly went for the full symbolism. He is an actor who is playing a role of Ceaser who is in turn playing the role of a god. It is a dissociation by one step. A suggestion that being a god can be a mask worn by a role. The pantheon are at their most vulnerable when they perform because they are wearing their mask, but they do so with no remove, the gods wearing their own mask. Laura was a fan girl. We were reminded of this in the last issue. She was a human playing at being a god and has now taken that step away from the direct association with Persephone. Laura may be about to realise she was playing at being the pop star who puts on the mask of Persephone or for that matter any other aspect of that goddess. Which makes me want to go back and read issue 1.

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## seismic-2

> Hang on. I may be on to something here. Lucifer is Jupiter (the morning star / planet).


The Morning Star is Venus (or for part of the year, Mercury), not Jupiter.  Because these two planets are inside the earth's orbit, they can be seen only close to the sun, i.e., just after sunset or just before dawn.  Also, on account of its size and being relatively close to the sun, Venus is the brightest "star" in the sky whenever it is visible.  The Lucifer myth relates to how the morning star can be seen only close to the horizon, and as it rises in the sky the sun soon rises behind it, and the brightest star Venus and the other stars then fade out of sight, so in spite of its brightness Venus can never be seen high in the heavens.  The Lucifer myth is that the "brightest" angel Lucifer, the bringer of light, aspires to ascend to the throne of heaven, but as he ascends the true source of light (God) casts him down from the skies along with the other angels.  This dawn myth does not apply to Jupiter, since like all the other outer planets it can be seen all night, rising up in the sky to its highest point and then setting on the other side.

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## JKtheMac

> The Morning Star is Venus (or for part of the year, Mercury), not Jupiter.  Because these two planets are inside the earth's orbit, they can be seen only close to the sun, i.e., just after sunset or just before dawn.  Also, on account of its size and being relatively close to the sun, Venus is the brightest "star" in the sky whenever it is visible.  The Lucifer myth relates to how the morning star can be seen only close to the horizon, and as it rises in the sky the sun soon rises behind it, and the brightest star Venus and the other stars then fade out of sight, so in spite of its brightness Venus can never be seen high in the heavens.  The Lucifer myth is that the "brightest" angel Lucifer, the bringer of light, aspires to ascend to the throne of heaven, but as he ascends the true source of light (God) casts him down from the skies along with the other angels.  This dawn myth does not apply to Jupiter, since like all the other outer planets it can be seen all night, rising up in the sky to its highest point and then setting on the other side.


It is often Jupiter depending upon the year / relative orbits. There is a long tradition of Lucifer being associated with Jupiter. I agree that when I usually think of the morning star I think of Venus, but that has less association with Lucifer (although some). I no longer have a star program to show where it was back then, so I don’t know how much research Gillen would have done on that, but he seems to be associating Jupiter with Lucifer.

Jupiter is currently a very prominent evening star at the moment from my vantage point. The most prominent light in fact. It even shines through cloud.

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## JKtheMac

Issue 40 has me wondering:



I have always had the feeling that we would head into an end game focused on the fans. Laura inspiring youth culture to rise up and do away with the Pantheon. Here we appear to have a young fan.

Something about the story has always reminded me of Promethea and a coming magical 'Apocalypse' being ushered in. I doubt it will be quite so all encompassing and transformative as Alan Moore's vision of the future, but I do think the end game will be about a new way for humanity to pass on the torch without having to rely upon Ananke/Minerva's less than satisfactory methods.

Although we may be heading into darker territory first, so let's hope this innocent looking youth survives the experience.

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## FeniSam

> I have always had the feeling that we would head into an end game focused on the fans. Laura inspiring youth culture to rise up and do away with the Pantheon. Here we appear to have a young fan.
> 
> Something about the story has always reminded me of Promethea and a coming magical 'Apocalypse' being ushered in. I doubt it will be quite so all encompassing and transformative as Alan Moore's vision of the future, but I do think the end game will be about a new way for humanity to pass on the torch without having to rely upon Ananke/Minerva's less than satisfactory methods.
> 
> Although we may be heading into darker territory first, so let's hope this innocent looking youth survives the experience.


I'm more inclined to believe that this guy is gonna get put through the ringer and set off a chain of events that ends with what you're describing, more or less. That depends on how "big" Gillen wants to close the book, but I imagine we have a few more trillion surprises and curveballs before the end.

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## JKtheMac

> I'm more inclined to believe that this guy is gonna get put through the ringer and set off a chain of events that ends with what you're describing, more or less. That depends on how "big" Gillen wants to close the book, but I imagine we have a few more trillion surprises and curveballs before the end.


There are only so many twists he can squeeze into what I imagine will be a single trade.

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## FeniSam

> There are only so many twists he can squeeze into what I imagine will be a single trade.


Well, considering that Mothering Invention had multiple twists and turns (both in backstory and present-day events), I have no doubt he could pull it off, lol.

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## Jinjonator

Each issue of the last arc, every single page is going to include at least one massive "he was dead the entire time"-level twist that completely upends our entire perception of everything that's happened. Every other page, someone will die.

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## JKtheMac

> Each issue of the last arc, every single page is going to include at least one massive "he was dead the entire time"-level twist that completely upends our entire perception of everything that's happened. Every other page, someone will die.


Ha ha. I imagine that would get quite tiresome.

Seriously, we have been promised at least a look at what Persephone (or whatever her name was back in the distant past) has been doing throughout history, so I am still sticking to some simplified version of my grand theory. That we will find out Persephone has been shaping human culture to chisel out a space for youth culture. Thereby making Laura’s story possible. As to her story it seems many people are now expecting what I was predicting way back before this unified thread, that Laura will show others how to do the deity thing on their own, fulfilling the purpose of The Pantheon.

On aspect I like about this potential story, is that Ananke has been playing her part. She has been ensuring the ongoing process all be it for selfish reasons. She has been rather stuck in a pattern, but even she seems to have been innovating and conducting secondary rituals like the Modern Prometheus ritual for example. It will be hard to redeem Ananke, but it would be nice if she doesn’t turn out to be an out and out villain.

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## FeniSam

> Ha ha. I imagine that would get quite tiresome.
> 
> Seriously, we have been promised at least a look at what Persephone (or whatever her name was back in the distant past) has been doing throughout history, so I am still sticking to some simplified version of my grand theory. That we will find out Persephone has been shaping human culture to chisel out a space for youth culture. Thereby making Laura’s story possible. As to her story it seems many people are now expecting what I was predicting way back before this unified thread, that Laura will show others how to do the deity thing on their own, fulfilling the purpose of The Pantheon.
> 
> On aspect I like about this potential story, is that Ananke has been playing her part. She has been ensuring the ongoing process all be it for selfish reasons. She has been rather stuck in a pattern, but even she seems to have been innovating and conducting secondary rituals like the Modern Prometheus ritual for example. It will be hard to redeem Ananke, but it would be nice if she doesn’t turn out to be an out and out villain.


It would be very Gillen to have Ananke do a Heel-Face Turn at the last moment, making all the (gruesomely detailed) backstory even richer by showing that even Ananke, who basically cornered herself into the same role for 6 millenia, is able to evolve. That'd be a nice beat.

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## CRaymond

Any thoughts of the recent 1373?

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## FeniSam

> Any thoughts of the recent 1373?


Poor, poor Nun Lucifer. I love the historical in-jokes Gillen always sneaks in, and the Black Death as an Ananke-deviced culling was great.

I loved how the Special basically just repeated all the plot details, almost like a Villain Monologue, but framed as a catholic confession.

Also, on a different topic, I am obssessed with the Tara variant for 41. Love it!

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## CRaymond

Nothing Ananke said was surprising, despite being disturbing.

The biggest clue for me was the fact that Lucifer proved she CAN burn and die from burning if she so wills it.

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## JKtheMac

> Nothing Ananke said was surprising, despite being disturbing.
> 
> The biggest clue for me was the fact that Lucifer proved she CAN burn and die from burning if she so wills it.


Yes. I posted my thoughts above, and there I do suggest it is probably the most extraneous of the stories.

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## Jinjonator

Pop Stars Are Actual Gods With Actual Powers, Are Fighting In London

Holy Shit Why Aren't We Trying To Murder Them or Something

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## Ryochan

> Issue 40 has me wondering:
> 
> 
> 
> I have always had the feeling that we would head into an end game focused on the fans. Laura inspiring youth culture to rise up and do away with the Pantheon. Here we appear to have a young fan.
> 
> Something about the story has always reminded me of Promethea and a coming magical 'Apocalypse' being ushered in. I doubt it will be quite so all encompassing and transformative as Alan Moore's vision of the future, but I do think the end game will be about a new way for humanity to pass on the torch without having to rely upon Ananke/Minerva's less than satisfactory methods.
> 
> Although we may be heading into darker territory first, so let's hope this innocent looking youth survives the experience.


Pretty sure this is the guy who was at her initial show and later, as part of a group, asked her how they should refer to her. Cant wait to see what role he plays. Remember how we first saw Dio. For that matter, Amaterasu was a fan, too.

Theres only one way to end a story.

Stop telling it? Start telling a different story instead? 

I cant wait.

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## FeniSam

God, I love Gillen playing with his themes in a visual way. A story told entirely through different instances of recorded footage but actually progresses everything thematically and plot-wise? I love it.

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## JKtheMac

Very intrigued by this issue. Laura clearly used a power. The hardware only acted as an amplifier. 

I like the way this felt like a found footage issue and then it flipped. Now we have a much more evil plan in progress than I would ever have suspected.

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## FeniSam

> Very intrigued by this issue. Laura clearly used a power. The hardware only acted as an amplifier. 
> 
> I like the way this felt like a found footage issue and then it flipped. Now we have a much more evil plan in progress than I would ever have suspected.


To Gillen's credit, so much was going on that I had forgotten that Minervananke had said that they were hoping to regress humanity, and in this issue it was explained in horrifying detail. I got literal goosebumps looking at Baal's mom at the venue, and then Laura coming to the rescue. This is going to be amazing.

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## JKtheMac

> To Gillen's credit, so much was going on that I had forgotten that Minervananke had said that they were hoping to regress humanity, and in this issue it was explained in horrifying detail. I got literal goosebumps looking at Baal's mom at the venue, and then Laura coming to the rescue. This is going to be amazing.


The non-consensual consent scene was outrageous.

"Hey mum you would do anything for family right?"
Including sacrificing yourself on a high technology alter for something I believe is true because I am gullible, while I sneak out the back and save my own backside.

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## FeniSam

> The non-consensual consent scene was outrageous.
> 
> "Hey mum you would do anything for family right?"
> Including sacrificing yourself on a high technology alter for something I believe is true because I am gullible, while I sneak out the back and save my own backside.


Wait, maybe I misinterpreted it, but we are assuming Valentine's mom went there knowing what was going to happen? I thought he led her to believe the tears were because of the 2-year expiry date edging closer. Have to give it a re-read.

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## JKtheMac

> Wait, maybe I misinterpreted it, but we are assuming Valentine's mom went there knowing what was going to happen? I thought he led her to believe the tears were because of the 2-year expiry date edging closer. Have to give it a re-read.


No I am not assuming that. I am saying he asks her in a roundabout manner. He is seeking her consent without telling her what he is asking her to do.

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## CRaymond

Loving the new Morrigan triumvirate. 

Interesting they comprise the “why” column of my Kabbalah theory: Chokmah/inspiration/Lucifer, Chesed/magnanimity/Mimir, and Netzach/love/Inanna. 

Wondering if THAT will be a loose factor.

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## JKtheMac

I am just going with the 'feels' part of the thread title.
Didn't 41 feel f'ing great!

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## LooneyKoala

I’m so sad that it’s ending, but this is one hell of a ride and seeing everything come together the way it is just makes me so happy!!

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## FeniSam

If Gillen actually goes all out with an honest happy ending, I will be more surprised than I was by this issue (and this issue had A LOT.) 

The significance and point of the triple-god dying and leaving three bodies seems oddly deus ex machina, but given how no rules were ever explained, Gillen had it mapped out from the get-go and the results were AWESOME, I can just be giddy.

I'm honestly glad and relieved poor Jon/Mimir got a chance to do more than be a victim of his circumstances. Go kick pops' ass with as much or more symbolism and grandeur than that cathedral shattering in the background, J!

That final wheel was everything 2019 needed, lol.

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## Ryochan

“Them or me? ... No choice at all.” 
Damn!
I was not expecting that.

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## CRaymond

Holy shit. Woden 1830s Frankenstein Monster is Woden 1920s Metropolis Robot.

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## JKtheMac

It was nice to see The Romantic plot finally come to fruition. I was beginning to wonder, as time was running out. Should have guessed it was related to the Great Darkness. I guess I had a more ‘romantic’ view of the potential for that character, but I was beggining to worry she would turn up as an aide towards the end which would feel very forced given she hasn’t been around in the main story. In the end she has a minor part in the story but an important part of the overall plot, which feels about right.

I really liked the cliffhanger. Especially the use of ‘you’re not dead, you’re just sleeping’ evoking the mystery cults. I hope this is also a foreshadowing of a mystery cult ending which is what I have been predicting for a few years now. I mean, why else have Persephone as the point of view character?

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## CRaymond

I’m hoping Mimir gives Tara Baph’s body.

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## JKtheMac

> I’m hoping Mimir gives Tara Baph’s body.


I think the idea is that Dio and Baph have swapped places. Expect him on life support, not dead.

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## CRaymond

> I think the idea is that Dio and Baph have swapped places. Expect him on life support, not dead.


I hadn’t considered THAT. Exciting!

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## JKtheMac

> I hadn’t considered THAT. Exciting!


Well you know. If it’s a real happy ending maybe everybody lives? Well not everybody but you know, people we like. The Morrigan was creepy, Sakhmet was Joker level scary, nobody liked Woden, I guess Amaterasu is the most significant casualty. She had a beautiful death though, thanks to that gruesome but poetic splash page.

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## CRaymond

Hmmm

I don’t fully understand wtf I just read. “She-in-thirds” suggests Norns or Morrigan more than Persephone. 

I think Lucifer’s first recurrence... initience?  Is the one that died in the chair.

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## ermac

Hey guys.

I've been reading WicDiv since the beginning but kinda dropped it for a while because I wasn't managing to follow the story. Last week I started catching up and BOOM, almost all the answers are being delivered.

I still have some questions tho. Maybe someone picked up:

- Did they show explicitly why the first Ananke started the killing? And why Persephone wanted to kill her?

- Is the Great Darkness a lie told by Ananke?

- What were those Shadow Creatures? 

- The baby-slaughtering Ananke manipulated Baal to do actually does not have any effect at all?

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## CRaymond

> Hey guys.
> 
> I've been reading WicDiv since the beginning but kinda dropped it for a while because I wasn't managing to follow the story. Last week I started catching up and BOOM, almost all the answers are being delivered.
> 
> I still have some questions tho. Maybe someone picked up:
> 
> - Did they show explicitly why the first Ananke started the killing? And why Persephone wanted to kill her?


Somewhat. It's explained in this most recent issue #43, but also throughout the preceding Mothering Invention arc.




> - Is the Great Darkness a lie told by Ananke?


Yes, but it also actually exists. It is the captured and exploited Frankenstein simulacrum from 1830s --which is also the Maria robot from the 1920s. The Woden-created entity produces dark energy constructs. 




> - What were those Shadow Creatures?


See above. 




> - The baby-slaughtering Ananke manipulated Baal to do actually does not have any effect at all?


Correct.

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## ermac

Thanks =)

10char

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## JKtheMac

> Hmmm
> 
> I don’t fully understand wtf I just read. “She-in-thirds” suggests Norns or Morrigan more than Persephone. 
> 
> I think Lucifer’s first recurrence... initience?  Is the one that died in the chair.


There has been an inference that the triple goddess thing in Robert Graves was an entirely wrong headed version of the situation between Persephone, Ananke and Minerva. So part of the point is that this isn’t that. The ubiquity of the triple goddess is almost entirely made up by comparative mythologists along with the weird and wrongheaded idea that there was an ancient matriarchy.

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## JKtheMac

It really is happening. This is pretty much the end. All over but for the epilogue. I was quite emotional. First Cass truly back to being herself, which surprised me in its poignancy, then that last word. That one hit me hard. A very simple but lovely issue.

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## H-E-D

It's over now.

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## JKtheMac

It took me two reads to appreciate the last issue. I think I was too tired and grumpy about politics first time around. Probably a lesson there. 

This morning, it was a lovely final chapter. Very evocative of what may have happened in the mean time, and it is stunning how good McKelvie has become over the course of this book. I am in two minds about the last page/pages. I know it is literally the whole point of the book to ‘pass it on’, and in that context it feels fitting, but on the other hand, I am not sure it feels natural coming from Laura. As the character that has to learn the lesson and pass it on to the others it makes sense, but her words still seem a little arch. She just doesn’t feel like the ‘Choose Life’ ending monologue kind of girl to me.

I guess it is because of the time gap. We have no context for what she did with the rest of her life. We get more context about everyone else. Even then a couple of characters feel a little hollow here. 

It has to have been a very tricky issue to get onto the page, and essentially it works well. It was suitably emotional (once I had a good night’s sleep) and rounds out the story very well. I will kind of miss Wicdiv but it does feel finished.

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## ermac

the future is ____________

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## seismic-2

> the future is ____________


That's not the way Dr. Manhattan sees it.

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## CaptCleghorn

Have the first seven trades and have read up through part of the fourth.  Soon I can talk and know what I'm talking about!

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## JKtheMac

> Have the first seven trades and have read up through part of the fourth.  Soon I can talk and know what I'm talking about!


I always hope that one day I will be able to do that. Oh that glorious day.

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